# Re: [EVDL] TS warnings, Re: New HEV and EV



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] TS warnings, Re: New HEV and EV*


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] TS warnings, Re: New HEV and EV*


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] TS warnings, Re: New HEV and EV*


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] TS warnings, Re: New HEV and EV*


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] TS warnings, Re: New HEV and EV*


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] TS warnings, Re: New HEV and EV*


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] TS warnings, Re: New HEV and EV*

I'm not familiar with the history of this whole thing (like a lot of the 
readers of the list I suppose), and it's apparent that there is some bad 
history. I agree with having data on a web site, but I'd like to see 
something like "We'd be willing to purchase an additional X cells under the 
conditions that those cells are tested and verified to meet spec before 
shipment by so-and-so, have an ongoing warranty, and that the following 
issues are resolved from previous purchases" followed by the cases that need 
to be addressed.

My thought is that if we want to see them put some effort into meeting 
specifications, and resolving the old issues, we need them to see that it is 
a business opportunity going forward, not just a loss. We have to make it 
in their best interest in a tangible way to resolve the bad blood.

The one thing I don't know, is if a contract can be written up that actually 
has an enforceable recourse in it if the product doesn't meet spec. 
Legally, I don't know what you can do about it if a supplier in China ships 
substandard goods, even if you have a contract. Bad publicity doesn't 
matter much if it was their intent to cut corners. They can change their 
name overnight and do it all over. Certainly doing some testing of a sample 
of cells before the final payment was made would have prevented a lot of 
this grief. 


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] TS warnings, Re: New HEV and EV*

You can't expect individual consumers to have any leverage. That's why class-action lawsuits exist. The only way to do this is to organize.

---
My thought is that if we want to see them put some effort into meeting 
specifications, and resolving the old issues, we need them to see that it is 
a business opportunity going forward, not just a loss. We have to make it 
in their best interest in a tangible way to resolve the bad blood.



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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] TS warnings, Re: New HEV and EV*

The best way to get a resolution is to show them why they want to resolve 
it. Fomenting hostility will not get us a supplier of good batteries. 
Legal action against someone in China would be very expensive, if even 
possible. So an international law firm was retained to write up an 
enforcable contract before the purchase was made, right? Didn't think so.

Personally, the only organizing that I would think would help significantly 
is organizing to show them what we could do for them if they were to get 
their act together. Lawsuits only work if you have a high probability of 
winning enough cash to pay off the lawyers and still get something back. 
Without a contract before the purchase, good luck. One thing I have 
learned, when dealing with strangers, especially outside the country, you're 
gambling, never make a deal that would hurt too much if it came to the worst 
possible outcome. What did you have in place to keep them from shipping you 
a palette of their worst junk?

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Glenn Saunders" <[email protected]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, August 13, 2007 6:00 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] TS warnings, Re: New HEV and EV


> You can't expect individual consumers to have any leverage. That's why 
> class-action lawsuits exist. The only way to do this is to organize.
>
> ---
> My thought is that if we want to see them put some effort into meeting
> specifications, and resolving the old issues, we need them to see that it 
> is
> a business opportunity going forward, not just a loss. We have to make it
> in their best interest in a tangible way to resolve the bad blood.
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>
> 


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] TS warnings, Re: New HEV and EV*

What would we do for them, and why do you think it would help?

----- Original Message ----
Personally, the only organizing that I would think would help significantly 
is organizing to show them what we could do for them if they were to get 
their act together.





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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] TS warnings, Re: New HEV and EV*

Personally, I'd consider dropping some money to buy a battery pack from them 
if they would #1 resolve the old issues and #2 support the product with a 
meaningful warranty. I really think the way to approach this is to see if 
we could develop a relationship to where we could place a good size order 
and deduct a refund for the previous bad batteries from the purchase price 
(or get some additional cells included free of charge). If we can put 
together a big enough order (with a reasonable expectation of quality) that 
they can cover the replacement of the old bad cells out of their profit on 
the new order, it becomes a win-win situation and everyone may come out of 
this much happier. Assuming they are capable of building a good battery 
(and it looks like we have the testing talent to determine if they can), we 
may develop a good supplier who understands our expectations, and get the 
people who got shorted last time taken care of. But it's much more likely 
to happen if they can see how they can do it without actually paying out 
cash by simply making less on a larger group order. Nobody likes to pay out 
cash.

The trouble is that going for the throat instead of being more proactive 
would make such a solution far less likely. We've all got to be able to see 
this as a bump in the road on the way to a good working relationship in the 
future, not a battle, or the most likely outcome is that everybody loses.

Any hard core negotiater will say that the idea is to come up with a 
solution that allows everyone to save face. If we could pull this off, we 
could get replacement batteries for those who got junk, and a batch of 
better batteries for a good price. They get out from under a bad situation 
that they don't want to pay cash to fix (and I really suspect that's not 
expected in their business culture, so they may very well see it as an 
outrageous request), and possibly get an ongoing profitable market for their 
product.

The biggest barrier to getting anything done well in China is the lack of 
expertise and experience over there. They don't have the legions of 
experienced engineers, production engineering and QC people over there that 
we do here. They've got some good people, but they are spread pretty thin. 
Nowhere near enough to serve all the factories they need running to employ 
and feed their huge population. A joint development effort utilizing some 
of the resoures we've got on this list with a production facility over there 
might just be very effective. That's how outsourcing is done effectively.


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Glenn Saunders" <[email protected]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, August 13, 2007 7:26 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] TS warnings, Re: New HEV and EV


> What would we do for them, and why do you think it would help?
>
> ----- Original Message ----
> Personally, the only organizing that I would think would help 
> significantly
> is organizing to show them what we could do for them if they were to get
> their act together.
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>
> 


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] TS warnings, Re: New HEV and EV*


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] TS warnings, Re: New HEV and EV*

Peter, do you know for a fact that they intentionally "burned their 
customer" or was it possibly a misunderstanding as it may have been with the 
batch for Queensland University? Apparently Rod Dilkes scored a good batch, 
so apparemtly it is possible. Was it because Everspring Global did some QC, 
had a contract, or becuase they spoke the language and the requirements were 
clear?

This does illustrate what a good middleman in Hong Kong or Taiwan can get 
done.

Marty

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Peter VanDerWal" <[email protected]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, August 14, 2007 8:51 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] TS warnings, Re: New HEV and EV


> TS has demonstrated in the past that they are comfortable withl burning
> their customers and have shown no remorse for their past actions.
>
> Given their past actionsq it's entirely possible that they will screw
> their customers again in the future.
> A companies warranty is based on concept that they will do the right
> thing if they sell defective goods to their customers.
> Since they have intentionaly sold defective goods in the past and no
> supported them, what do you figure the chaces are that they eill honor
> their warranty in the future?
>
> Given their past actions, their warranty is worthless.
>


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] TS warnings, Re: New HEV and EV*

I wanted to confirm that Jukka or Rich had absolutely nothing
to do with the original group buy I organized. No one had any
way of knowing we would get burned by doing this. 2 sample
100Ah cells I've personally tested were performing near advertised
specs (94Ah out at 1C rate), but then people who bought 100Ah
cells are quite satisfied. Only 90Ah ones were garbage.
This means TS *can* make performing cells. Question is if
it worth dealing with them, at least until they clean up
after themselves.

Victor



> Chris Brune wrote:
> > Hi,
> > I don't believe Jukka or Rich were directly involved with this particular buy.
> >
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] TS warnings, Re: New HEV and EV*

I know this for fact. Information came from former TS manger who shipped
these cells which were sitting in storage for several years (of course 
with their knowledge, they are the ones who put it there).
Terminals got corroded, charge disappeared, no to mention that even if
they were cared for (kept charged and clean) shelf life irreversible
crippled them. I was told these cells were made for some Chinese
military (contractor?) but for whatever reason never made it there, so
sat at the factory as "dead investment". So when opportunity arrived
to recover some cost (at our expense), it of course was used.

Victor



> Marty Hewes wrote:
> > Peter, do you know for a fact that they intentionally "burned their
> > customer" or was it possibly a misunderstanding as it may have been with the
> > batch for Queensland University? Apparently Rod Dilkes scored a good batch,
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] TS warnings, Re: New HEV and EV*

You guys need to stop beating up a supplier for something that happened
years ago..
And you all don't know most of the details.

You folks are like a bunch of vultures...Once somebody has a issue you never
forget it.
There are a lot of you learning the hard way how , and how not to charge
Lion cells.

As far as I can tell TS cells of the current designs, meet or beat their
spec sheet ,if properly charged, discharged and managed.

I have 200 perfect cycles on a set of TS LFP40AHA cells.
We hope to collect 1000 cycles a month until they die, or become useless.

I don't hold and WON'T hold Thunder-Sky responsible for somebody else's
learning curve lessons.
If I screw up a set.. I will consider that a hard won lesson. And get on
with life. And not dwell on the fact that I still have much to learn.

Lets cut the TS trashing.. it's not helping any of us get reliable
affordable Lion cells and systems.

Rich Rudman
Manzanita Micro




----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Sam Maynard" <x[email protected]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, August 13, 2007 11:44 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] TS warnings, Re: New HEV and EV


> Jukka? Rich? Can you validate or invalidate this?
>
>

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] TS warnings, Re: New HEV and EV*


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] TS warnings, Re: New HEV and EV*


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] TS warnings, Re: New HEV and EV*



> Rod Dilkes wrote:
> 
> > I can understand the TS factory's reluctance to offer a warranty in
> > the circumstance where no battery management system was used.
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] TS warnings, Re: New HEV and EV*

This reminds me of certain parts of the world where dwelling on the past 
creates such anger that making a better situation for the future just can't 
happen. I'm not saying what happened in the past was acceptable. But it 
was the past, and holding onto that anger and simply attacking them is not 
going to get us where we'd like to be, having a reliable supplier. The 
question is, is there a way to get from a troubled history, to a position 
where we can count on them to supply us good batteries? Just lashing out at 
them is non-productive. What do we need to do to quit dwelling on the past 
and negotiate this to a mutually rewarding future? We need higher tech 
batteries, few companies will talk to us, and this dwelling on the past to 
the exclusion of moving forward is seriously getting in the way.

There is a huge difference between encouraging a teenage thief to do the 
crime, and locking him up for life with no chance of parole for a bad 
decision.

I'm a new person around here, and I would really like some decent batteries. 
I'm getting really tired of hearing why I shouldn't have access to them 
because of what someone (did I read that the "someone " doesn't even work 
there anymore?) did to someone else a while back. I want to know what is 
being negotiated to move forward.

I suggest reading the book "Culture Shock" by Kevin Sinclair. He's got some 
very specific suggestions about how to get such problems corrected.

Marty

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Victor Tikhonov" <[email protected]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Sunday, August 19, 2007 5:52 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] TS warnings, Re: New HEV and EV




> > Rod Dilkes wrote:
> >
> > > I can understand the TS factory's reluctance to offer a warranty in
> > > the circumstance where no battery management system was used.
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] TS warnings, Re: New HEV and EV*

marty what has been said many time is do not do business with them untill they change their ways that the bad vibs are intented to make them aware that they must change and make honest restitution for the wrong they have done this is not a case of punish untill they give a pound of flesh + more and then make restutition . you are coming in on the tail of a real long thread . these guy don't want ts's life blood they want ts to make things right AND make honest restitution . that isnt any more than you would want from a maf. that did you wrong . 
----- Original Message ----- 
From: Marty Hewes<mailto:[email protected]> 
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List<mailto:[email protected]> 
Sent: Sunday, August 19, 2007 6:52 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] TS warnings, Re: New HEV and EV


This reminds me of certain parts of the world where dwelling on the past 
creates such anger that making a better situation for the future just can't 
happen. I'm not saying what happened in the past was acceptable. But it 
was the past, and holding onto that anger and simply attacking them is not 
going to get us where we'd like to be, having a reliable supplier. The 
question is, is there a way to get from a troubled history, to a position 
where we can count on them to supply us good batteries? Just lashing out at 
them is non-productive. What do we need to do to quit dwelling on the past 
and negotiate this to a mutually rewarding future? We need higher tech 
batteries, few companies will talk to us, and this dwelling on the past to 
the exclusion of moving forward is seriously getting in the way.

There is a huge difference between encouraging a teenage thief to do the 
crime, and locking him up for life with no chance of parole for a bad 
decision.

I'm a new person around here, and I would really like some decent batteries. 
I'm getting really tired of hearing why I shouldn't have access to them 
because of what someone (did I read that the "someone " doesn't even work 
there anymore?) did to someone else a while back. I want to know what is 
being negotiated to move forward.

I suggest reading the book "Culture Shock" by Kevin Sinclair. He's got some 
very specific suggestions about how to get such problems corrected.

Marty

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Victor Tikhonov" <[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>>
Sent: Sunday, August 19, 2007 5:52 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] TS warnings, Re: New HEV and EV




> > Rod Dilkes wrote:
> >
> > > I can understand the TS factory's reluctance to offer a warranty in
> > > the circumstance where no battery management system was used.
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] TS warnings, Re: New HEV and EV*

Nasty comments on a web site, and venting anger in an Email forum isn't 
likely to fix the past situation, or develop a working relationship with a 
possibly promising future. You need to realize that we (home builders of 
BEV) are not perceived to be a big market, and that they do not live or die 
by what we think of them.

There are two approaches we should be taking. First is to present some data 
as to how many $ we might spend in the near term future if they clean up 
their act. The other (hopefully simultaneous) approach is to bring some 
pressure down on them. It won't be from a web site or from a forum. The 
Chinese government is very concerned with perceptions about trade with 
companies in China, especially in the last few weeks (at least nobody's 
bitching about the lead content in batteries) and companies in China are 
very concerned with the governments perception of them. I was serious, the 
book Culture Shock covers this stuff. There are ways to fix this, and I 
don't see us pursuing them.

I belong to the U.S. - China Chamber of Commerce here in Chicago. The 
purpose of the chamber is to break down trade barriers and solve problems. 
The chamber knows influential people in Shenzhen China, and I've been there 
myself (got the fake Rolex to prove it) and intend to go back. I might be 
able to do something about this, but I'm hearing a lot of complaining, too 
many differing opinions about what actually happened. I see no documentation 
about what the exact problems were, or what has been done recently to try to 
fix it, just a lot of hostility. That makes it pretty tough for me to do 
anything.

Marty

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "FRED JEANETTE MERTENS" <[email protected]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Sunday, August 19, 2007 8:59 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] TS warnings, Re: New HEV and EV


> marty what has been said many time is do not do business with them 
> untill they change their ways that the bad vibs are intented to make them 
> aware that they must change and make honest restitution for the wrong they 
> have done this is not a case of punish untill they give a pound of flesh 
> + more and then make restutition . you are coming in on the tail of a 
> real long thread . these guy don't want ts's life blood they want ts to 
> make things right AND make honest restitution . that isnt any more than 
> you would want from a maf. that did you wrong .
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: Marty Hewes<mailto:[email protected]>
> To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List<mailto:[email protected]>
> Sent: Sunday, August 19, 2007 6:52 PM
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] TS warnings, Re: New HEV and EV
>
>
> This reminds me of certain parts of the world where dwelling on the past
> creates such anger that making a better situation for the future just 
> can't
> happen. I'm not saying what happened in the past was acceptable. But it
> was the past, and holding onto that anger and simply attacking them is 
> not
> going to get us where we'd like to be, having a reliable supplier. The
> question is, is there a way to get from a troubled history, to a position
> where we can count on them to supply us good batteries? Just lashing out 
> at
> them is non-productive. What do we need to do to quit dwelling on the 
> past
> and negotiate this to a mutually rewarding future? We need higher tech
> batteries, few companies will talk to us, and this dwelling on the past 
> to
> the exclusion of moving forward is seriously getting in the way.
>
> There is a huge difference between encouraging a teenage thief to do the
> crime, and locking him up for life with no chance of parole for a bad
> decision.
>
> I'm a new person around here, and I would really like some decent 
> batteries.
> I'm getting really tired of hearing why I shouldn't have access to them
> because of what someone (did I read that the "someone " doesn't even work
> there anymore?) did to someone else a while back. I want to know what is
> being negotiated to move forward.
>
> I suggest reading the book "Culture Shock" by Kevin Sinclair. He's got 
> some
> very specific suggestions about how to get such problems corrected.
>
> Marty
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Victor Tikhonov" <[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>>
> To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" 
> <[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>>
> Sent: Sunday, August 19, 2007 5:52 PM
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] TS warnings, Re: New HEV and EV
>
>


> > > Rod Dilkes wrote:
> > >
> > > > I can understand the TS factory's reluctance to offer a warranty in
> > > > the circumstance where no battery management system was used.
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] TS warnings, Re: New HEV and EV*



> Marty Hewes wrote:
> 
> > There is a huge difference between encouraging a teenage thief to do the
> > crime, and locking him up for life with no chance of parole for a bad
> ...


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