# Is the "bandit" a trustworthy business, or a rip-off, as it's name implies?o



## dauphine (Jun 3, 2013)

*Re: Is the "bandit" a trustworthy business, or a rip-off, as it's name implies?o*



Electron Power said:


> I now have to consider down-sizing on the cells that I will be purchasing, due to not being able to come up with an "acceptable" response to the "There's no way you are can justify putting 5 grand into that vehicle (06 Merc Mariner Hybrid), when it works perfectly fine as-it-iz" call, despite the fact that it IS MY money. I was originally going to go with 112 (100 for the traction battery, 4 for the 12 volt battery, and 8 spares) of the "Winston" branded 40Ah LiFeYPO4 (plastic encased, with threaded terminals) cells from China. The concession, which I have yet to propose (but I WILL be sticking to it - dare I say "no matter what?), is to go with 112 standard LiFePO4 20Ah pouch-style cells. The best deal I can find on line for them is $2,227 total cost, including shipping. I AM ready to buy, but the site "hosting" that deal is "ali-express", _(Deleted offensive text)_
> 
> To be completely honest about it though, the bottom line of my concerns revolves around what my chances are of getting ripped-off. Can anyone out there speak for the legitimacy or non-legitimacy of these companies? The origin of the cells seems to be a company calling itself "Victpower Technology Co" out of Shenzhen. The model that they list for the cells is "AMP20M1HD-A". But confusingly, they list "A123" as the manufacturer. I'm skeptikal about why have to go through all those different companies (aka - middlemen). This is the link: http://www.aliexpress.com/item/rech...c-cells-3-2V-20A-30c-discharge/726916148.html The BIG question: Should I go through with the deal?


How about buying a few at a time? Don't blow the whole 2K at once risking everything. Sounds like you have something that's working already. 

I think Alibaba is a clearinghouse site with no connection to the business listed there?. 

OK googled the site and this is the answer to some of your questions:
http://www.workfromhomewatchdog.com/is-aliexpress-com-a-scam/

Chinese products only. I was kind of wondering. 

Probably not a scam, totally, but some dissatisfied customers. Definitely minimum order (the money you might take to a casino) only! And it doesn't sound like you can depend on orders being any safer if you order again. Might be better to pay for the same items repackaged in the US and pay the extra bucks or buy a bunch yourself and resell to make the bucks for your risk! Or buy reputable US for twice the money, sleep well at night and be happy for the rest of your life


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## TEV (Nov 25, 2011)

*Re: Is the "bandit" a trustworthy business, or a rip-off, as it's name implies?o*

Hi, 

FYI I think you read the rong story 

" A•li Ba•ba (ˈɑ li ˈbɑ bɑ, ˈæl i ˈbæb ə) n. 

the poor woodcutter, hero of a tale in The Arabian Nights' Entertainments, who uses the magic words “Open sesame” to open the door to the cave in which the Forty Thieves have hidden their treasure. "

OTAH, I agree with the previous poster, just buy a sample first to get familiar with the process and also run some capacity tests to see if they' are ok.


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## Electron Power (Jan 2, 2013)

*Re: Is the "bandit" a trustworthy business, or a rip-off, as it's name implies?o*

Oh no! In doing some google searches trying to determine the legitimacy of those companies (BTW - the so-called "bandit" site is alibaba, NOT alibabba), a gigantic flag just got raised up on A123. THEY ARE NO MORE! Apparently they had gone bankrupt. But what I find really strange, is that they were able to come back up out of the ashes, as their direct (literally) successor, B456! And it doesn't even make sense to me how a large chineese sweat-shop style (obviously low-wage) company, which makes a product for which there is a HUGE global demand for, could even GO bankrupt. I know you can't believe everything you see or read on the web, but holy WTF - I'm seriously starting to feel like this is the twilight zone (or someone is really messing with me). I'm so dumbfounded (if that's even the right word) right now, that if I was to to rely on MY OWN judgement, I'm not about to release my tight grip on a single cent of my money. Anyone willing to offer THEIR perspective on any of this???


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## dauphine (Jun 3, 2013)

*Re: Is the "bandit" a trustworthy business, or a rip-off, as it's name implies?o*



Electron Power said:


> Oh no! In doing some google searches trying to determine the legitimacy of those companies (BTW - the so-called "bandit" site is alibaba, NOT alibabba), a gigantic flag just got raised up on A123. THEY ARE NO MORE! Apparently they had gone bankrupt. But what I find really strange, is that they were able to come back up out of the ashes, as their direct (literally) successor, B456! And it doesn't even make sense to me how a large chineese sweat-shop style (obviously low-wage) company, which makes a product for which there is a HUGE global demand for, could even GO bankrupt. I know you can't believe everything you see or read on the web, but holy WTF - I'm seriously starting to feel like this is the twilight zone (or someone is really messing with me). I'm so dumbfounded (if that's even the right word) right now, that if I was to to rely on MY OWN judgement, I'm not about to release my tight grip on a single cent of my money. Anyone willing to offer THEIR perspective on any of this???


The perspective is exactly the same as since snake oil was first sold and the first female offered "services" for food: Due diligence and caution. Don't be in a hurry. Making you rush (last one, only one in this color, it's on sale, it's "green", were good stewards, blah blah etc.) are the tools of fools and shysters. Apply physics, common (old Fashioned) sense, patience and so on and you will get it right 95% of the time which is an A+ average. Don't waste your time getting angry over the other 5%. Getting you emotional about stuff is the number one sales tool. Learn to recognize it and the more you sense it the more your guard goes up.

I'm editing in one more thing. When dealing with your kids (who are all excellent salesmen) always start with "NO'. It is a lot easier to go from "no" to "yes" over time when you have thought about it than from "yes to "no". Same thing goes for all pushy salesmen.


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## frodus (Apr 12, 2008)

*Re: Is the "bandit" a trustworthy business, or a rip-off, as it's name implies?o*

Alibaba is like ebay, but without auctions... it's just a store front for companies to use.

Some companies are fraudulent, but they go away quickly and resurface as another name. Victpower has been there a while, but users have been both happy and unhappy with them....

read:
http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showthread.php?t=84762&highlight=victpower
and
http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showthread.php?t=73159&highlight=victpower


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

*Re: Is the "bandit" a trustworthy business, or a rip-off, as it's name implies?o*

I have deleted offensive text in the OP and the quote.

Please refrain from using offensive language on this forum as per forum rules.


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## Electron Power (Jan 2, 2013)

*Re: Is the "bandit" a trustworthy business, or a rip-off, as it's name implies?o*

It's completely out of the question now. I simply DON'T HAVE the patience to deal with problems getting working replacements for a 10-20% defective cell rate. Where I come from anyways, that's simply NOT an acceptable way to operate. The way I was always taught, the price you charged per piece, was the price per WORKING piece - NOT 80% of the pieces (that you paid to have shipped) working! A while back I did buy a lot of 10 E27 base (household) LED lights from a chineeze sleeze vendor on ebay, and 2 of them did not work, right out of the box. That's 20% right there. You'd think that after that I'd know better. That's a very good point about steering clear of trouble in the first place always being preferable to having to invoke damage control. It wasn't really stated that way, but that's what I perceived as the point, and I couldn't agree more. I'll be sticking with the suggested vendors. Screw those chine-sleazez! P. S. - The vehicle does work as advertized with the stock 2KWh NiMH pack. But since only 20% (400Wh) of it is usable, electric range is limited to only about a mile - which absolutely drives me nuts! An added 100 cell LFP pack (20Ah cells) should increase the electric range to about 20 miles.


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## Electron Power (Jan 2, 2013)

*Re: Is the "bandit" a trustworthy business, or a rip-off, as it's name implies?o*

Whoa, I just noticed that post (B4 my last previous 1) regarding something offensive that was deleted. Just so you are aware, I make absolutely no claims, as far as being "politically correct" goes. I simply don't believe in sugar-coating s...! Looks like I can't even say the word I want to say without being accused of profanity! Lets just say that when I see something brown and it stinks, I have no reservations about calling it exactly what I see it as. Now that that's been said, I'll make an effort to be "nicer", on this forum. I do regret (but will not apolojize 4) offending that particular individual. It's just that my faith in humanity is running at an all-time low right now. Hopefully, that's "nuff sed" about it. I just figured that "some" sort of response to that post is/was expected.


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## rwaudio (May 22, 2008)

*Re: Is the "bandit" a trustworthy business, or a rip-off, as it's name implies?o*

Given my experience with batteries and vendors... (I have a bunch of not so good A123's from Victpower)

I would highly recommend you contact Don, his contact info is in the thread below. Sometimes it takes a bit to get an order together but he's a stand up guy. Ask him for pricing on some CALB CA40's which are good quality 40Ah prismatic cells (Much like the Winstons you mentioned in the opening post, but can be bought in the USA)

http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showthread.php/new-calb-ca100ah-cells-all-over-86277.html

If 20Ah would really work for you I would suggest using groups of 2 parallel headway cells. The guys at Manzanita Micro are honest and helpful.
http://www.manzanitamicro.com/products?page=shop.product_details&flypage=flypage.tpl&product_id=83&category_id=29


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## dauphine (Jun 3, 2013)

*Re: Is the "bandit" a trustworthy business, or a rip-off, as it's name implies?o*



Electron Power said:


> Whoa, I just noticed that post (B4 my last previous 1) regarding something offensive that was deleted. Just so you are aware, I make absolutely no claims, as far as being "politically correct" goes. I simply don't believe in sugar-coating s...! Looks like I can't even say the word I want to say without being accused of profanity! Lets just say that when I see something brown and it stinks, I have no reservations about calling it exactly what I see it as. Now that that's been said, I'll make an effort to be "nicer", on this forum. I do regret (but will not apolojize 4) offending that particular individual. It's just that my faith in humanity is running at an all-time low right now. Hopefully, that's "nuff sed" about it. I just figured that "some" sort of response to that post is/was expected.


Yeah I said something too just joking around but when I saw your post was flagged I went back and self edited mine to avoid any trouble.

Somewhere along the way I lost my political correctness... If you happen to find it feel free to keep it!


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## Electron Power (Jan 2, 2013)

*Re: Is the "bandit" a trustworthy business, or a rip-off, as it's name implies?o*



dauphine said:


> Yeah I said something too just joking around but when I saw your post was flagged I went back and self edited mine to avoid any trouble.
> 
> Somewhere along the way I lost my political correctness... If you happen to find it feel free to keep it!


 Hey, your alright in MY book!

On to RW's post regarding batteries & vendors...... 

100Ah is just waaay to large to be feasible for me, in terms of weight and interior space taken up. And the cost for the 100 cells that my 330V system requires has easily got to top 10 grand. Since I can't even get 5 grand to go over with the "boss", I have to scale down from the 40Ah cells that I originally planned on using. Right now I'm stuck on using 20Ah pouch cells, due to less size and weight than the "boxed" type cells, for the same capacity. But if it's what best price & availability dictates, the boxers will work. But it only makes sense that pouch cells would cost less to manufacture. And if 10Ah (either style) is where the best price/availability is, that would also work for me (probably isn't though). But that would be the low-end limit. Maybe if I went with a 100S2P configuration (as suggested) using 10's, I could get more of a price break, considering that I would be purchasing a total of 224 cells. I'll inquire with Don about his availability on lower capacity cells.

I would have no problem using 26650/38120 cylindrical style cells either, probably in an S/P configuration as suggested. But the cost/Ah doesn't even come close to large-format square cells. There's just no way I'm going to pay 19 bucks apiece for 10Ah 38120's when 25 will buy 20AH (non-chinese) pouch cells (numbers quoted DO NOT include shipping charges). Obviously the cylindrical cells must be significantly more difficult to manufacture. That effectively takes them out of the running 4 MY $.


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## rwaudio (May 22, 2008)

*Re: Is the "bandit" a trustworthy business, or a rip-off, as it's name implies?o*



Electron Power said:


> Hey, your alright in MY book!
> 
> On to RW's post regarding batteries & vendors......
> 
> ...


40Ah CALB prismatic cells are likely the most cost effective. I bought the A123's at less than $1 per Ah on my final batch, but the actual cost in time, materials, pain, rework, redesign, made them FAR more expensive than prismatics, and delayed the actual driving of my EV by over a year. Pouches or 26650 are non trivial to work with when you start talking about those quantities, factor that in to the plan. I literally received, bottom balanced, installed and wired the prismatics in my car in less than a week, I spent over a year on A123's and never ended up with a finished working pack.


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## Ziggythewiz (May 16, 2010)

*Re: Is the "bandit" a trustworthy business, or a rip-off, as it's name implies?o*



dauphine said:


> How about buying a few at a time? Don't blow the whole 2K at once risking everything.


Even that strategy has bit many people. A questionable vendor can easily test and provide quality cells to fill a sample, but for larger orders may send untested inventory.


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## Electron Power (Jan 2, 2013)

*Re: Is the "bandit" a trustworthy business, or a rip-off, as it's name implies?o*

When it comes to small-ticket electronic items, you simply CAN'T beat the chinese. I just purchased pH & TDS meters (for water quality testing) for a grand total of less than 20 bucks. You couldn't touch american made products having those functions for less than $100 (5X). A while back I purchased a 200A 120/240V plasma cutter & welder for about $450. A similarly capable miller (american made) will set you back 10X that! That would be WAY out of MY price range. Purchasing the items on ebay generally helps compel them to replace items that are defective.,br> 
But when it comes to mechanicals, expect to see things like laminated or cast gears that break or strip extremely easily. Expect anything that is cut or turned on a lathe to have a significant amount of wobble. Expect parts to be missing, and obvious flaws/defects to be "overlooked" by QC, if there exists any QC at all, that is. It looks like this is EXACTLY where they are at, when it comes to LiFePO4 cells - and that sure isn't where I plan on being! The 2 acceptable non-chinese brands that I know of so far are Headway and CALB. Are there any other brand names worth considering?? 

Another thing I've been noticing, is that shipping charges on these cells seem to run very high. There is even some sort of additional "hazardous material" charge added to the shipping charge. I would prefer to make the run myself to pick them up, if they can be obtained within roughly 4 hours drive from my location (2hrs west of NYC, on I-80). That includes a fair number of large cities, such as NYC, Philly, Pitt, Balt, DC, Erie, & Hartford. There is also a very large number of smaller cities within that area. I would also MUCH prefer to be in a position to see the merchandise that I am buying, BEFORE I plunk down the credit card!

I'm thinking that CALB & Headway MUST each have at least 1 warehouse in that area, right? Are there any other acceptable US brands, or maybe even any acceptable jap brands?


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## Electron Power (Jan 2, 2013)

*Re: Is the "bandit" a trustworthy business, or a rip-off, as it's name implies?o*

Oh, I forgot something (editing my last post will mess up the paragraph formatting). First off, does "prismatic" imply the hard-cased cells, as opposed to the pouches (because I thought I recalled it used in reference to pouch cells)? If not, what does it mean?

Do US cell manufactures even produce pouch cells?

How are the tabs on pouch cells connected together? (I'm assuming that they are soldered)


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## rwaudio (May 22, 2008)

*Re: Is the "bandit" a trustworthy business, or a rip-off, as it's name implies?o*



Electron Power said:


> When it comes to small-ticket electronic items, you simply CAN'T beat the chinese. I just purchased pH & TDS meters (for water quality testing) for a grand total of less than 20 bucks. You couldn't touch american made products having those functions for less than $100 (5X). A while back I purchased a 200A 120/240V plasma cutter & welder for about $450. A similarly capable miller (american made) will set you back 10X that! That would be WAY out of MY price range. Purchasing the items on ebay generally helps compel them to replace items that are defective.,br>
> But when it comes to mechanicals, expect to see things like laminated or cast gears that break or strip extremely easily. Expect anything that is cut or turned on a lathe to have a significant amount of wobble. Expect parts to be missing, and obvious flaws/defects to be "overlooked" by QC, if there exists any QC at all, that is. It looks like this is EXACTLY where they are at, when it comes to LiFePO4 cells - and that sure isn't where I plan on being! The 2 acceptable non-chinese brands that I know of so far are Headway and CALB. Are there any other brand names worth considering??
> 
> Another thing I've been noticing, is that shipping charges on these cells seem to run very high. There is even some sort of additional "hazardous material" charge added to the shipping charge. I would prefer to make the run myself to pick them up, if they can be obtained within roughly 4 hours drive from my location (2hrs west of NYC, on I-80). That includes a fair number of large cities, such as NYC, Philly, Pitt, Balt, DC, Erie, & Hartford. There is also a very large number of smaller cities within that area. I would also MUCH prefer to be in a position to see the merchandise that I am buying, BEFORE I plunk down the credit card!
> ...


Headway and CALB are Chinese brands, it's just there are locations in the USA that stock these items so you aren't dealing with the Chinese directly.
A123 was the big USA LiFePO4 brand.... they didn't make it.

I don't think there are any large warehouses that would have the stock on hand in your area... you might be able to order through a local retailer and inspect the goods before taking receipt of them but most likely that will require payment up front or at least a large deposit.

Good luck.


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## rwaudio (May 22, 2008)

*Re: Is the "bandit" a trustworthy business, or a rip-off, as it's name implies?o*



Electron Power said:


> Oh, I forgot something (editing my last post will mess up the paragraph formatting). First off, does "prismatic" imply the hard-cased cells, as opposed to the pouches (because I thought I recalled it used in reference to pouch cells)? If not, what does it mean?
> 
> Do US cell manufactures even produce pouch cells?
> 
> How are the tabs on pouch cells connected together? (I'm assuming that they are soldered)


I'm not sure if it's correct on not but most people on this forum refer to the "plastic boxes" as prismatics, they have terminals you can bolt to and are generally simple to hook up. 

Pouches are pouches and generally require custom hardware to connect.

You can't solder pouches as one of the terminals is usually aluminium, they are usually bolted or welded.

You can see some info about my adventures with pouches on my blog.. there is some info part way down this page..
http://electricporsche.rwaudio.com/page/2/

I used aluminium blocks and bolts to join the pouches.


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## Electron Power (Jan 2, 2013)

*Re: Is the "bandit" a trustworthy business, or a rip-off, as it's name implies?o*

A pack comprised of pouch cells does have a respectable advantage over a "prizzy" pack, when it comes to weight & volume (up to 25% less). But more important considerations, such as consistency and reliabilty, appear to be significantly inferior. My biggest concerns are ending up with a pack of 100 severely mis-matched cells, and/or the cells experiencing fast & unequal degradation over time. Just like [the links in] a chain, the pack as a whole is only as strong as the weakest cell it contains.

So they are ALL made in CN, then? That certainly isn't very re-asssuring. What I am failing to get my head around, is why manufacturers that DO have WELL-ESTABLISHED reputations when it comes to making batteries [panasonic, sony, matushita, etc.] are NOT in on the LFP game? Or ARE they actually making them, but simply do not have enough capacity to produce ANY more than contractual obligations to related [parent/child/sibling] companies, such as mitsubishi, nippon, fuji, honda, mazda, nec, etc. - some of the largest companies on the planet, demands?? And it would blow my mind to know that mission-critical companies like NASA for example (whom most [if not all] of the products that they produce are extra-terrestially bound), have enough faith in CN-made batteries to actually USE them in such produts!

So if my "perspective" is any better now, it goes something like this: The ONLY option, when it comes to LFP cells, is CN-made. But straight out of the factories, the manufacturing failure-rate is 20% or higher, with NO quality control [what-so-ever] preventing defective units from getting shipped to the customer, who then also suffers an additioonal loss of 20% on shipping charges [it SOOOO doesn't make sense to pay money to have defective/unusable items shipped!], in addition to the 20% loss on the purchased product itself!

It IS possible to avoid THAT [unacceptable] scenario, by allowing that role to be taken by up by somebody else, who then becomes YOUR "middleman". But THEN the issue turns into: Now your going to have to pay much more than you had originally figured the product was going to cost, for someone ELSE to screen out the bad units and warrant the units that they do send you, while making enough profit to be worth THEIR while. And don't forget that what THEY paid for shipping also figures in to what THEY charge YOU, plus what you pay to have the product shipped from them to you! It all seems so crazy, to be forced to have to operate under those sorts of conditions. I don't mean to affend anybody of eastern virtue, but there is no doubt that CN is taking the world on a course leading to [what I am going to coin as, assuming no one else has yet] the "DOWN and DOWN".

Now that I've come to some sort of an understanding, it looks like my choice comes down to this: Get the "Lifetech" brand 330V, 15Ah pouch-celled [fully aluminum enclosed, complete with it's own internal BMS], battery pack (5KWh), through a "buffer" company that will stand behind it. This is the most plug-and-play option that I know of, allowing for the least number of alterations to the vehicle. But it would put Ah capacity below what I was considering as the minimum number. If the price was right though, I would consider re-assesing that number. But so far it's not looking good, as I have yet to receive a response to a request for a price quote, after 5 or 6 weeks now. This gives me fears that if/when a quote ever does come through, it will be astronomical.

The other option is shelling out the 5 grand for 112 guarranteed/warranted 40Ah priz cells. Capacity would be a nice 13.2KWh. But that option would necessitate fabricating my own lock-downable enclosure, along with 24 additional tie-in wires, to tap into the stock battery's BMS taps, which would manage charging/discharging in 4-cell groups. I'll try to get quotes from some other companies that claim to sell the 330 volt lifetech battery, so I have something to compare against.


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## Electron Power (Jan 2, 2013)

*Re: Is the "bandit" a trustworthy business, or a rip-off, as it's name implies?o*

Update:

It now appears that the ONLY place I can find the 330V/15Ah lifetech complete LiFePO4 pack, model XPSMX-330015, is "tradezz". Does anyone have any idea how reputable THAT "sorrow-get" company might be?


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## Electron Power (Jan 2, 2013)

*Re: Is the "bandit" a trustworthy business, or a rip-off, as it's name implies?o*

Oh no - I'm starting to get that sinking feeling again [similar to de-ja-vu]. Lots of unknowns again, right off the bat. And then, when the only things that come up when trying to find answers to some of those unknowns, are MORE unknowns, it's tripple T time I say. Time to "toss the towel".

When there isn't even a hint that the product exists on the "alleged" manufacturer's website [battery-lifetech.com], I can't help but wonder WHY that is. There's just so much that just doesn't come up making any logical sense to me. I've always prided myself, you could say, in being able to come up with good (correct) answers to the things not known, based on straight up, clean, unbiased logic. But this ALL seems to fly completely in the face of everything that I know, understand, believe, and am comfortable operating within. What I am REALLY not used to, is the way they act like they are wise-guys or something, or IS it that they really are? I must be from back in the "olden" days, when making sure that the customer was happy, was where it was at. Now they are just pee-onz that no one cares if they get ripped-ff, or not. OK, I'm done, and outta here.


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## rwaudio (May 22, 2008)

*Re: Is the "bandit" a trustworthy business, or a rip-off, as it's name implies?o*

I've had personal experience with 130 of the CALB CA60FI's and of that 130 there were two cells that had a small "defect" meaning they had internal discharge. It's WAY below the spec of less than 3%/month so to the manufacturer they are still good, however I've noticed that every 2-3 months I have to put in about an amp hour to get the cell back up to the level with the rest of the cells. All cells came in above spec for capacity. If you were using a top balancing BMS the BMS would simply take care of that for you and it would never become an issue.

I'm not sure where you got that 20% number but it's garbage. Buy A123's from Victpower and that number could be 0-100%. But buying CALB cells from the California warehouse and you might be looking at 0-2% defect rate, if you can even call self discharge that is well below spec a defect. If you have a cell that has a legitimate defect they should replace it.


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## palmer_md (Jul 22, 2011)

*Re: Is the "bandit" a trustworthy business, or a rip-off, as it's name implies?o*

Sounds like your working hard to avoid the 40ah calb ca cells. Several people have tried the cylindrical and pouch path and most all of them have made their way back to the "brick" cells. I'll echo the others here and recommend you stick with the calb ca cells since they have a good power to weight and volume ratios and they are easy to install and have a good record of reliability. They also cost less than the other options as well, particularly the final installed cost.

Evtv is running a sale on 60ah cells for $74 each (including bolts washers and straps). Your 100 cells would be around $8000 at your door, far less than your $10k estimate and for a larger cell. Or get the 40's for $59ea.


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## Ziggythewiz (May 16, 2010)

*Re: Is the "bandit" a trustworthy business, or a rip-off, as it's name implies?o*

Wow, that's a great deal for those 60s coming from Jack. Too bad my floodies are still good for a few years.

You can also get the CA40s for a similar price/ah from Don Blazer. That's where I got mine, they're great!


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## Electron Power (Jan 2, 2013)

*Re: Is the "bandit" a trustworthy business, or a rip-off, as it's name implies?o*



Ziggythewiz said:


> Wow, that's a great deal for those 60s coming from Jack. Too bad my floodies are still good for a few years.
> 
> You can also get the CA40s for a similar price/ah from Don Blazer. That's where I got mine, they're great!





Ziggythewiz said:


> Wow, that's a great deal for those 60s coming from Jack. Too bad my floodies are still good for a few years.
> 
> You can also get the CA40s for a similar price/ah from Don Blazer. That's where I got mine, they're great!


Hmmm, I got reamed pretty hard just for considering using FLAs. Capacity-to-weight ratio and cycle life do suck compared to LFP, but price vs capacity is much more favorable (for the short term, anyways). Or is it? The last battery that I purchased for my Yamaha TW200 [fat-tire, street legal] bike (4 years ago, but it has been bad since last year) cost less than $30. Imagine my surprise this time when I was told it was now going to cost $70. The way I see things, that's entirely to much for a 7Ah lead-acid battery. So I ditched right out of that gig, and ended up buying a dozen 3.3Ah LiFePO4 [26700 cylindrical] cells, for $82 + $22 shipping. With a 4x3 [4S3P] setup, that gives me 10Ah, and 100A [10C] peak discharge for starting. So for 50% higher cost, I got 50% more capacity, AND [hopefully] at least 3-5x longer lifespan. If you compare that with Ballistic brand LFP #258 [$110 + shipping] claiming 50C discharge rate of 135A, I'll have almost 4X the capacity, for about 25% less $. It looks like the end-of-the-road for lead, when it comes to bikes & other power-sports equipment batteries.

Now, as far as 60Ah cells go, I just think that's too much extra weight to carry around all of the time, when also carrying an engine and a tank full of fuel. I'm figuring 700 pounds, for the 100-cell pack that would be necessitated by the fact that it is a 330V system. Even 100 40Ah cells makes for a pretty hefty pack, at 350-400 lbs. 

Since the Lifetech pack uses pouches, it's more-than-likely out-of-the-running at this point. But I have since come up with a completely new idea. I wonder how many Wh of cylindrical LFP cells [100 count] could be packed into the space occupied by 250 5.5Ah NiMH cells, which I believe are "D" sized. Since LFP cells have 2.5X the voltage of NiMH cells, and 80-100% of their capacity is usable [without killing them prematurely], vs 20% for NiMH cells, that gives approximately a 10X increase in usable capacity, for simply REPLACING the cells INSIDE of the stock pack. That would result in ZERO weight and volume increase. Also, no heating or cooling [A/C running, therefore engine running] would be needed. I think I need to look into this option more closely. That scenario would definitely make the higher cost-per-Ah of the cylindrical cells more justifiable. 

And just to clear things up, the 20% failure rate I was referring to is for direct-from-china purchases. Using a US "middleman" company should definately reduce that down to 1-3%. The 12 extra cells I'd purchase would be to insure against THAT number, plus 4 (or even 8, if they fit) for the 12V battery.


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