# Catastrophic failure w/photos



## m38mike (Dec 27, 2008)

During our Fall Color Tour, almost everyone was getting a chance to drive Electric-Willys and see what it was like to control an all-electric vehicle. And everyone was having a great time with it too. Until the fire!!

On one of our trips around the neighborhood Joe was driving about 30 mph when all of a sudden there were lots of sparks coming from under the seat! And following the sparks came lots of flame! I yelled at him to stop the jeep and jump out. He hung on long enough to get us stopped and set the parking brake so the jeep wouldn't roll back down the hill. After I jumped out I grabbed the fire extinguisher off the front fender, shut down the main power switch, and shot the controller. The fire went out immediately, but not before doing some damage to the charger wires that were next to it. I thought for sure that the bottom of the driver's seat was burned. But after removing it I found it to be fine. Here are some photos of it in place and what the result was. This first one shows the extinguisher powder all over the place.









This one shows where the fire blew out the seal on the back end of the controller, as it burned out the insides. This end is usually sealed up at the factory. 









This should still be under warrantee, so I should not have to pay anything to have it repaired/replaced. It was very unexpected - to say the least! But that also means that the Electro-Willys will be out of commission for quite a while as this gets fixed. One other thing this event has convinced me to do is to move the controller out from under the driver's seat. I thought this location would be good for air circulation. I never dreamed it would be bad for fire distribution!! 

I'm thinking that I'll move the controller to the left rear fender, and make sure that the end is facing away from the driver's seat. That way I can still monitor it directly, but I'm safely away from it if the next one should cook off. 

Neither Joe nor I were hurt in this incident, other than some pride. I feel fortunate about that. Joe was very apologetic, thinking he did something to cause this. He did nothing to cause this failure. He just happend to be the driver at the time. And he kept his head about him as he stopped the vehicle so we could safely exit, while the fire was burning under his seat and magic smoke billowed up around us.


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## CPLTECH (Sep 14, 2007)

Is that my imagination, or is it a LogiSystems controller? Sure looks like the one I had under the hood. 
About 12 months ago my LogiSystem 1000A/156V was unable to contain the “black smoke” after just 5-6 miles on its maiden voyage. I then took the money and purchased a Curtis. 
_Seems the name went on before the quality was put in… (old Zenith TV commercial)_


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## neanderthal (Jul 24, 2008)

Yep Looks like my old logisystems controller. I have since had mine repaired and now it works fine, and has gone for many miles. But their first production run of those models blew up very easily. When mine did it, it failed full on. If it wasn't for the kill switch in my car, it would have been disastrous.


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## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

Wow - I thought the guy at Logisystems had this problem licked back in February or March of this year; how old is your particular controller?

Also, now that you can see inside, it looks like your noble effort in putting the extra heat sink on the bottom was wasted as there is no direct path from the semis to the bottom of the enclosure. FWIW, the 550A Logisystems that Rebirth Auto has received recently have fans bolted on top. Unfortunately, that long, L-shaped thermal pathway from the semis to the heatsink means they will likely be running 40-60F hotter than the actual heatsink, and those Logi's run hot enough as it is (Rebirth Auto uses them for their economy conversions, and dyno tests each one for several minutes - they do get too hot to touch, that's for sure).

Anyway, instead of moving the controller to a whole new location, why not wrap it with a sheet metal "duct" that fits tightly against a larger square fan that blows across the controller from the back end. That will get you better air flow across the top of the controller, where it counts, and also give you more shielding in case of another "cook off" (seeing as are apparently bold enough to risk another one, that is  ).


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## blackpanther-st (Apr 4, 2009)

Tesseract said:


> Wow - I thought the guy at Logisystems had this problem licked back in February or March of this year; how old is your particular controller?


That's what I thought too! 
I was seriously considering one of these before I decided to build my own; I'm glad I took the path I did. 



Tesseract said:


> they do get too hot to touch, that's for sure).


And that's a scary thought, especially if that internal temperature to heat sink differential is as high as you say; way too hot in my opinion for this type of electronics. 

Since I first saw them, I always did wonder why they went with such a crappy heat sink; I wouldn't trust that thing to cool my computers processor let alone a full size EV motor controller.


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## m38mike (Dec 27, 2008)

Yup, this was a Logisystems 1000 amp 120-144v controller. It was made in May, 2008, so it was part of the group of controllers that Logisystem was having problems with. I got perhaps a hundred miles out of it before it blew. 

I talked with Logisystem and they said send it in and they would put a rush on the repair/replacement. I'm thinking that a 1000 amp 156v controller might be a better bet for me. My system is 144v design voltage but we all know that in reality with 18-8v batts in the pack, I'm probably up around 162 volts with a fresh charge. 

I put the heat sink underneath to create some air space under the controller to keep it from heating up the steel floor, or holding heat in the case. I had no idea how the stuff inside was installed. I just thought that the heatsink on the top of the box is too blocky to be an effective heat sink. I think it should be finned like the one I had underneath. 

Oh well, I guess it's time to make some other changes as well, like putting heater cables under the batteries to keep them warm. And switching around the order of the batteries to get different batts at the ends of the string.


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## Lordwacky (Jan 28, 2009)

Man, you just cant get a break! After all your coupling issues and now this.... I imagine this has to be very frustrating for you. Thanks for keeping us all updated, knowing the issues that you have run into has helped me in my build process.


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## m38mike (Dec 27, 2008)

Lordwacky,
funny you should mention breaks. I guess if it can break, I'll break it. 

I'm thinking that I'll mount the new controller under the floor where it'll get lots of outside air to cool it. I'll need to add a rock/spray deflector panel in front of it since it'll be in the spray path from the left front tire. But that way if it does flame out on me again, all the flames and smoke will be outside the vehicle cab. At it'll be in a location that gets great air circulation. I wonder if I can mount it upside down? That would make it easier for me to bolt it to the floor from underneath. I'll have to talk with Jim at Logisystems about that. Since it's sealed at both ends, I'm assuming that getting road spray on it will not hurt it, but I'll check with Jim about that too.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

Tesseract said:


> Anyway, instead of moving the controller to a whole new location, why not wrap it with a sheet metal "duct" that fits tightly against a larger square fan that blows across the controller from the back end. That will get you better air flow across the top of the controller, where it counts, and also give you more shielding in case of another "cook off" (seeing as are apparently bold enough to risk another one, that is  ).


That would be a good thing to do. The duct will ensure all the cooling air gets to the heatsinks and takes the heat out the other end. Make sure the incoming air isn't heated by something else first like another hot spot in the system or a panel that gets warm in the sun.

I fitted a big fan at the end of my welder that sucks a draft through the case. It turned a low cost 20% duty cycle welder into a 100% duty cycle welder. I've not had it cut out even on full power.

The other option would be mount the heatsink facing up and then fit the fan above it blowing downwards. The heat would then be drafted out the ends of the fins. The escaping air would need to be directed away from the fan so that it doesn't short circuit the airflow and feed hot air back in.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Logisystem should have recalled all their old controllers instead of waiting until they blow up to replace them. I really hope they've fixed their issues.


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## m38mike (Dec 27, 2008)

Instead of putting the controller inside a duct or container with a blower on it, I'm thinking about adding a mount onto the front brace for the motor. If I keep it in the vehicle, especially in the winter with a hard top on it, any smoke it makes will be trapped in the cab - with me!. If I mount it near the motor, it will get lots of cool air, and good air flow around it to take the heat away. I just need to make some more long cables to get it connected with the rest of the electronic parts. 

Any thoughts on the voltage deal? Should I go for one that has a higher voltage capacity than my design voltage? I also asked that question to Jim at Logi to see what he says.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Moving the controller is a good idea. Pack voltage inside the vehicle really should be avoided. I don't know if you'd get much benefit from a higher voltage unit, unless you have plans to up the pack voltage in the Future. Constant current rating is more important in avoiding meltdowns.


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## Voltswagen (Nov 13, 2008)

Ever since I joined this website I have read many problems with overheated controllers. Knock on wood I have never experienced this,
in fact my problem seems to be quite the opposite. 
My ES-31B motor gets very hot after an extended run - 10 miles or more.
Too hot to even hold your hand to it.
While my Controller ( Kelly 12600B ) is barely warm to the touch and has never heated up.
I draw about 50 - 60 amps on a level road at 35 -40 mph which I think is very reasonable. Accelerating to 35 or 40 mph I draw about 100 - 150 amps. Looking at the pictures of that controller fire.....maybe I should count my blessings?
Hope Logictech gets you fixed quickly.
Roy


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## Amberwolf (May 29, 2009)

Perhaps.  

As far as the motor heating goes, have you tried any forced cooling methods? That motor only has the one shaft, so you can't put a fan on the non-drive end, but you could put a ducted fan on the comm end and suck air thru it (which would also tend to suck away dirt and carbon that would otherwise settle on/around the comms and brush mountings, depending on the design of the ducts).
________
MeganFoxxx


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## Voltswagen (Nov 13, 2008)

Amber
I have been recently investigating cooling methods on another thread here. While I could rig up a small 12v fan, that fan may consume more energy than it would save but would prolong the life of the motor.

The consensus seems to be that passive cooling would be the best solution. I have been searching for a finned heat sink which I could use to wrap the middle section of my 6 7/8" motor case. No luck so far and I may have to fabricate one myself


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Voltswagen said:


> I have been searching for a finned heat sink which I could use to wrap the middle section of my 6 7/8" motor case. No luck so far and I may have to fabricate one myself


I doubt that would do much of anything, it won't cool the center of the motor at all.


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## m38mike (Dec 27, 2008)

voltswagon, Thanks, I hope they get me fixed up soon too. I'm planning on calling them today to see what happened and how they plan to make it right. They've been good to work with so far, so I have no worries. Yeah, I wouldn't wish this kind of event on anyone, and I'm glad we were able to take care of it quickly. I'm still thinking about where I want to put the controller when it comes back. 

On the motor cooling thought, if your motor is not set up where air readily circulates around it, then I'd set up a 12v fan, even a small computer fan would work. I did that with an ATV engine and it was amazing just how much cooler it ran with a small fan.


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## Voltswagen (Nov 13, 2008)

John
The heat from my motor is radiating thru the case which in addition to the internal cooling fan helps to prevent the whole thing from melting down.
In a similar way that a finned heat sink draws heat away from a controller,
a sink mounted thermally to the motor casing would radiate more heat away than just the casing itself. But in this instance the heat sink would have to be round. Many companies manufacture these round sinks for smaller motors but none so far for a motor of my size.
Here is an example of one of many websites which sell heat sinks for small motors.


http://www.servohut.com/electric_motor_heat_sinks.htm
Roy


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Finned housings are usually seen on AC motors. Why do you think there are almost no finned series DC motors? Because it's not worth it. As I understand it most of the heat in a series DC is generated in the central armature which external fins won't help, only airflow across it will. If the external housing is getting hot the armature is probably even hotter. I don't think cooling the external housing with fins will help cool the armature and might give you a false sense of security. My take anyway, I could be wrong.


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## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

JRP3 said:


> ... I don't think cooling the external housing with fins will help cool the armature and might give you a false sense of security. My take anyway, I could be wrong.


I believe the commutator/brushes are the parts of a DC motor that get the hottest, but your point remains valid - cooling the field (stator) is rarely productive and I also feel it may contribute a false sense of security.


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## Amberwolf (May 29, 2009)

Voltswagen said:


> The heat from my motor is radiating thru the case which in addition to the internal cooling fan helps to prevent the whole thing from melting down.


Just remember that it is *radiating*, and not *conducting*, and the former is far less efficient than the latter, and doesn't move heat as fast as it is generated in a motor doing the work yours is doing. If you had no fan on it it probably *would* melt down after long enough of a full load. 

Even convection cooling by forced air will do more than simple radiation will, though neither is nearly as good as conduction (depending on the conducting material--aluminum would be far better than steel, for instance). 




> In a similar way that a finned heat sink draws heat away from a controller,
> a sink mounted thermally to the motor casing would radiate more heat away than just the casing itself. But in this instance the heat sink would have to be round. Many companies manufacture these round sinks for smaller motors but none so far for a motor of my size.


Partly that's *because* of the size of the motor vs the amount of heat it needs to get rid of--it's just not effective enough at that point. It will *help*, but it will not do *enough* to stop meltdown under high loads for long periods, and it can give a false sense of security if you don't also have a way to cool the core of the motor directly. 



> Here is an example of one of many websites which sell heat sinks for small motors.


Thing is, with a small motor the path for heat to get into that external part of the case isn't so far as it is with yours, plus it's keeping the magnets cool which is a good idea in PM motors. Yours isn't PM, though, right? I doubt your field windings create as much heat as the armature windings, by far, plus the torsion heating in the shaft and such during acceleration (might be negligible, dunno), and bearing friction heat. 

In RC motors (usually Brushless DC PM motors) that are "inrunners", with the armature carrying the magnets and the case carrying the windings, heatsinks surrounding the motor case would be pretty effective at carrying away most of the important heat generated, in the windings. There aren't any windings on the armature in this case, so no need to worry. 

In RC motors (and ebike hub motors) that are "outrunners", with the armature carrying the windings and the case carrying the magnets, heatsinks on the outside aren't all that effective, even with lots of airflow, if the inside of the motor is sealed up (as in the case of most hub motors), as the conduction of heat *to* the case is minimal. Mosty it's convection and radiation carrying the heat to the case, and both of those are woefully inefficient compared to direct conduction. So lots of those types of motors burn up if they're not given airflow inside the case to cool them; preferably forced airflow. In RC motors, that's usually on a heli or plane, with the prop blades and/or forward motion giving lots and lots and lots of airflow. 


Steel doesn't conduct heat very well, so the very best way to get heat out of there short of immersing the armature in flowing liquid coolant (not practical for a brushed motor, I'd guess) is to force-air cool it with a ducted fan, pulling the air out of the comm end all around, with a minimal dust filter at the other end.


I just don't want to see you put all that effort into a heatsink and get disappointed with it's effectiveness.  



Even on my little 350W and 650W wheelchair motors I don't expect the heatsink fins I'm planning on making for them to do a lot of good; they're mostly to help the magnets themselves stay a little cooler. Realistically, a forced-air solution would be much better; I just don't have everything I need to do that effectively yet (as I would need to drill and cut some vents in the motor's magnet casing/flux ring at the far end; it's meant to be a sealed motor).
________
Grianxx cam


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## CPLTECH (Sep 14, 2007)

Voltswagen said:


> My ES-31B motor gets very hot after an extended run - 10 miles or more.
> Too hot to even hold your hand to it.


Two thoughts come to mind:
Are the RPM's in the 3-4K range to assist the cooling? And, undersized electric motors overheat when exceeding their rated continuous HP.

In my 120V setup, the 9" ADC motor is rated for ~185A continuous. If I drive over that for a long grade I can expect serious over temp conditions.


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## m38mike (Dec 27, 2008)

Those are some very good points on larger DC motors. A good air flow seems to be the best way to go. 

And speaking of good air flow, it appears that I am at fault in the failure of my controller. The Logisystem controllers are designed with a heat sink that's tapped for fans to blow directly onto the heat sink that's built into the top of the case. I saw that on mine, and noticed their discussion of the fans in their on-line instructions. But instead of opting for fans on the top of the controller, I put one fan at one end of the controller. That was not nearly enough cooling for the work I was putting that controller through. That's what lead to the overheating and failure. 

But to Logisystems great credit, they are fixing me up with a replacement controller - WITH FANS! And doing that under warrantee! I talked with Jim and he said they should have it shipped out to me next week. He also gave me better advice on where to mount a controller than I EVER got from Salida Conversions. So with fans attached, and mounted in a clean air flow, I expect that this new controller will last me for a very long time. Then I can concentrate on breaking other parts of my project!


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## Voltswagen (Nov 13, 2008)

CPLTECH
I have no tachometer, so no way to exactly read the RPM's but I'm sure that in 4th gear (.93 ratio) RPM's would be lower than in 3rd (1.26 ratio) at the same mph thus running the internal fan slower. 
I'm thinking now that I should attach a temp gauge to the motor casing to
see actually how hot it gets. Once I determine that temp I could call D&D Motors to get their input. 
Thanks to all who responded.
Roy


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## tj4fa (May 25, 2008)

m38mike said:


> ...But to Logisystems great credit, they are fixing me up with a replacement controller - WITH FANS! And doing that under warrantee! I talked with Jim and he said they should have it shipped out to me next week. He also gave me better advice on where to mount a controller than I EVER got from Salida Conversions. So with fans attached, and mounted in a clean air flow, I expect that this new controller will last me for a very long time. Then I can concentrate on breaking other parts of my project!


I guess that's one of the values of working with a guy named "Jim" versus a guy named "吉姆".  

WTG Logisystems!!









(PS - I'd still like to know how well that PFC battery charger is doing for you that you bought from 吉姆 )


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## MJ Monterey (Aug 20, 2009)

吉姆 That's a good one!


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## ngrimm (Oct 19, 2007)

Too bad about your controller. Does your Logisystem have a temperature gauge that displays internal heat sink temps? Or do any of the commercial controllers?


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## Guest (Oct 14, 2009)

Nice photos and write up. Thanks for sharing. 

Heat is a big deal. We tend not to think of it because most of the components are air cooled. But it matters what's going on around the components when thats the case. And I like fans. In fact, I like kind of expensive powerful 12v fans. Commair has one that does 2.5 amps at 12 vdc and puts out 235 cfm. You can get them on eBay for about $20.

We had some motor heat issues, which surprised me. Plenty of cooling air in a pretty open mounting, but in the rear. We bought a little shroud for the Warp 9 I think from EVparts. It just encloses the intake grill to the commutator side of the motor. I took TWO of those Commairs and stacked them in a kind of an odd arrangement made of aluminum that narrows to a round hole. Connected the shroud hole to the hole in the aluminum thing and it blows a LOT of air up the Warp 9's skirt. Seems to keep it cool. Blows just as hard at low RPMs as high of course.

The Kelly controller is pretty good about heat, but they recommend fans as well. We didn't use them. But we did take it into consideration. The way the engine compartment was, I was able to mount it vertically, quite close to the motor actually. I mounted it on a fairly large, or perhaps I should say long, piece of aluminum. The Kelly IS heat sinked to the flat side and they advise such a mounting with fans in IT. Instead, I extended the aluminum downward into the passing air stream. 

In this way, the aluminum plate hangs down into the passing air stream pretty strongly. This adds a little more drag to the car, but I'm after cooling here.

The controller is mounted relatively high in the engine compartment, where it can't get splashed or wet. But since the plate it's mounted on extends down 20 inches or so, one end of it hangs below the car. The controller is on the other end. This seems to keep the plate cool, and so the controller.

If I was unable to do this, I wouldn't think twice about adding a fan. They're cheap, and the 25 watts or so is really quite insignificant. You would use 50 wH in two hours of driving.

The way I have it, I probably could have increased the cooling simply by drilling some holes in the plate at the end that hangs down into the passing air. Of course, it might whistle at certain speeds......

Jack Rickard
http://evtv.me


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