# couple to join 2 Hyper 9's



## boughtnotbuilt (Oct 31, 2020)

NetGain sent me 2 Hyper 9's, but nothing to couple them together. They have 1 1/8" shafts. McMaster Carr and other sites have a variety of options. but I have no idea what's appropriate and I've gotten to response to an email and a phone call to EV asking for guidance. Can anyone here point me at a thread or threads about linking to EV motors together?


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## remy_martian (Feb 4, 2019)

I think EV West has a kit


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## Tomdb (Jan 28, 2013)

https://eveurope.eu/product/dual-hyper-coupler/ 

Here is a nice setup


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## boughtnotbuilt (Oct 31, 2020)

I saw that one. It's $1,000 euros and there's no picture of what it actually is. I think it's a lot more than a coupler, but I can't tell. Plus, it's out of stock right now.

Also, could not find the kit on EV west, although considering what a disaster their web site is, I simply could have missed it.


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

Tomdb said:


> https://eveurope.eu/product/dual-hyper-coupler/
> 
> Here is a nice setup





boughtnotbuilt said:


> I saw that one. It's $1,000 euros and there's no picture of what it actually is. I think it's a lot more than a coupler, but I can't tell.


It appears to include an adapter housing (connecting the motor housings and holding them aligned) and a shaft coupler (with flexible element). It looks like everything you would need and a sound design, but a thousand euros does seem like a lot.

Switching the page to what they call "English" helps, but everything is in the images, too... once you figure out what you're looking at.


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## evric (Oct 26, 2008)

This maybe a bit late, but at least one of the motors needs to be the double shaft variety. ie. a shaft coming out each end.


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## mike kirschbaum (Feb 1, 2021)

It looks to me like a lot of people are taking advantage of a lot of other people, who get into a hobby they are not educated or experienced for. There are many shaft couplers, some flexible, some solid. Solid ones will put side thrust or radial loads on the motor's bearings if the motors are not kept perfectly aligned. The bearings won't last long that way. Flexible couplings are varied, from ones with rubber bushings to ones with chain connectors. Some have nice covers to keep the coupling lubricated, keep dirt out. Just knowing couplings is a minor part of what it takes to properly build and operate a powerful device. If you don't know the finer points of auto mechanics, fabrication, welding, electricity, and didn't get erector sets as a child, buy a finished EV vehicle.


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

mike kirschbaum said:


> There are many shaft couplers, some flexible, some solid. Solid ones will put side thrust or radial loads on the motor's bearings if the motors are not kept perfectly aligned. The bearings won't last long that way. Flexible couplings are varied, from ones with rubber bushings to ones with chain connectors. Some have nice covers to keep the coupling lubricated, keep dirt out.


All true. Visually, the EV Europe kit mentioned earlier appears to include a jaw coupling, which makes sense to accommodate the minimal misalignment inherent in the rigid housing connection approach. The elastomeric spider (visible ends are yellow in the illustration) doesn't need any lubrication, and the housing will protect all components from dirt and moisture.











mike kirschbaum said:


> It looks to me like a lot of people are taking advantage of a lot of other people, who get into a hobby they are not educated or experienced for.
> ...
> Just knowing couplings is a minor part of what it takes to properly build and operate a powerful device. If you don't know the finer points of auto mechanics, fabrication, welding, electricity, and didn't get erector sets as a child, buy a finished EV vehicle.


Or buy well-designed and well-constructed components to handle the aspects in which you are not proficient. Almost no one who converts a vehicle to an EV is educated and experienced in motor design, but that's okay because they can buy a suitable motor; shaft couplers and housing adapters are a fundamentally similar situation.


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## mike kirschbaum (Feb 1, 2021)

brian_ said:


> All true. Visually, the EV Europe kit mentioned earlier appears to include a jaw coupling, which makes sense to accommodate the minimal misalignment inherent in the rigid housing connection approach. The elastomeric spider (visible ends are yellow in the illustration) doesn't need any lubrication, and the housing will protect all components from dirt and moisture.
> View attachment 121853
> 
> 
> ...


I'd have to see the proposed setup. If the first motor is solidly adapted to the bellhousing, coupled to the tranny, the second motor is just hanging out there, suspended by whatever engineering the builder can come up with. Room for error there. If the first motor is solidly mounted in place of the tranny, a standard driveshaft connects to the rear end, and the second motor is still hanging out there, same problems. If my vehicle required two motors, I would look for two that had the torque and rpm range to mount directly to the rear wheels, no differential. Bang, straight in. Maybe independent rear suspension with driveshafts to each wheel to reduce un-sprung weight, if there's room.


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

mike kirschbaum said:


> I'd have to see the proposed setup...


Do you mean the EV Europe kit? You can see it - just follow the link.



mike kirschbaum said:


> If my vehicle required two motors, I would look for two that had the torque and rpm range to mount directly to the rear wheels, no differential. Bang, straight in. Maybe independent rear suspension with driveshafts to each wheel to reduce un-sprung weight, if there's room.


I'm not a fan of tandem motors, either, and one-motor-per-wheel is a capable solution... but surely if you understand the motor technology at all you would use a reduction gear set with each motor, and just forgot to include it in your description.

In the context of this thread, we have no idea what the target vehicle is, or what powertrain configurations would fit or be suitable. I assume that it would be the Land Cruiser which was discussed in an earlier thread - converting that to independent suspension would be a complete change in the character of the vehicle, and retaining 4WD with the one-motor-per-wheel approach would require two more motors and replacement of the front axle as well. Four HyPer9's with reduction gearboxes would provide great capability, but is really not the project that the builder was proposing.


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

The BEST solution is to throw away the wimpy Hyper9's and get a couple of 9 inch forklift motors

You want the double ended type - these will have a splined shaft at each end
Then you can use a simple double female splined adapter 

Much better than the plane shaft with a keyway


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## mike kirschbaum (Feb 1, 2021)

I'm still new to EVs, so I'm still trying to grasp the allure. This person is EV powering a four wheel drive vehicle. Presumably to go off road. My son loves mud dogging, I can get that. But to do it in a vehicle with electro-hydraulic devices to operate the power steering, electro pneumatic devices to operate the power brakes, slow charging batteries that are now being stressed by heavy performance demands, (have I forgotten anything?) all that can fail out in the boonies, where tow trucks may not even want to go. Just looking for grief, as far as I can see.


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

mike kirschbaum said:


> ... My son loves mud dogging, I can get that. But to do it in a vehicle with electro-hydraulic devices to operate the power steering, electro pneumatic devices to operate the power brakes, slow charging batteries that are now being stressed by heavy performance demands, (have I forgotten anything?) all that can fail out in the boonies, where tow trucks may not even want to go. Just looking for grief, as far as I can see.


It's not obvious that this vehicle would have either power-assisted steering or power-boosted brakes in its original form, but if it does there are various solutions for the conversion which can work very well. We could leave that discussion to when - and if - a question is asked.

The power-versus-speed characteristics of electric motors - especially a synchronous permanent magnet motor such as the HyPer9 - are desirable in off-road conditions, so there is interest in EVs from enthusiasts in this area. Obviously reliability is of more importance than it would be for, for instance, a track competition car.


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## mike kirschbaum (Feb 1, 2021)

Once I understand road EVs I'll then look at off road EVs. I haven't priced the daily drivers yet, expect to find them expensive.


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## boughtnotbuilt (Oct 31, 2020)

I found this old thread I started and thought I should update it. 

This is a off road vehicle, a new fj45 frame (from acqualu), 2 hyper 9's joined by the EV Europe coupler, CanEV bellhousing adapter, NV4500, Atlas transfer case, and axles out of a 2020 Jeep Gladiator. We built a mount for the front of the first motor (slave) and a mount for the transmission, and for now all the rest is self-supporting in between. The only issue we keep having is getting the 2 Hyper 9's to be happy. We finally got the right clone files and removed the one element with conflicting canbus address and it all worked out of the chassis. But, now that it's back in the chassis, I can't get the hyper 9's to run. As soon as I hit the throttle, I get an error.


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

Sorry I can't help with the motor control issue, but thanks for the update.

That's an impressive set of hardware; it will be interesting to set how it works when it's complete and sorted out. Nothing to do with EVs... but those front shock towers are going to be braced together, right?


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## boughtnotbuilt (Oct 31, 2020)

Yes, when it's all set, there will be a brace going across the top. The front isn't even full welded in yet. Waiting to do one more cycle of the front suspension today with my son just to make sure. the front is so complicated with drag link and panhard bar and 3 link.


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## remy_martian (Feb 4, 2019)

Ground the throttle at the speed controller, not through the frame.


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## boughtnotbuilt (Oct 31, 2020)

The ground for the throttle is just connected to the throttle.


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## remy_martian (Feb 4, 2019)

No it isn't...

Edit: disconnect the throttle ground from the frame and ground the pedal AT the speed controller


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## boughtnotbuilt (Oct 31, 2020)

When you say throttle ground, do you mean k1-1 black with blue stripe? And what is the 'speed controller'? K1-12 only goes to the pedal and is not grounded to the frame? K1-1 is ground to the frame.


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## remy_martian (Feb 4, 2019)

No idea what you're talking about, nor am I going to spend time looking at wiring diagrams. I'm trying to help, not consulting.

You need to translate sound engineering practice to your application. 

The box your pedal provides input to is a speed controller. Assuming it's not a high-noise-rejection connection, no wiring, including "ground", between those two should generally be through the frame rails. "Ground" does not automatically mean frame rails or car body.


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## boughtnotbuilt (Oct 31, 2020)

Remy, I'm not even going to reply to the condescending part of your post.

The hyper 9 has one speed controller, and the pedal wires straight to that controller - all three wires including the ground. It is not connected to the frame.


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## remy_martian (Feb 4, 2019)

There was nothing condescending in my post.

It's impossible to tell what you have connected where in that rat's nest and you never gave us a wiring diagram. So, we have to guess at what you might have done. Lashing out at people trying to troubleshoot YOUR poorly described problem is just being an ass.

^ THAT is condescending


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## remy_martian (Feb 4, 2019)

boughtnotbuilt said:


> Remy, I'm not even going to reply to the condescending part of your post.
> 
> The hyper 9 has one speed controller, and the pedal wires straight to that controller - all three wires including the ground. It is not connected to the frame.


Pissing contest aside, in the pic you have two Hyper 9's, now you have one. Do you have two pedals?


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## boughtnotbuilt (Oct 31, 2020)

Nope, just one pedal


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## boughtnotbuilt (Oct 31, 2020)

I have no idea what you are so angry about. Or why you're on this site - other than to lord your knowledge. I'm not asking you to consult. And I'd appreciate it if you'd piss off from my thread you've been zero help.


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## necrogt4 (12 mo ago)

@boughtnotbuilt did you happen to take any photos of the coupling you bought from EV Europe?


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## boughtnotbuilt (Oct 31, 2020)

Yes, here are some photos. It's a bit of a pain to work with. For instance, there was a nasty shaking going on at first, could not figure it out. assumed it was the joint, took the entire thing apart and finally figured out that one of the motors was not turning - and the first motor was forcing it to turn. I had not bought the netgain displays initially (using Hawkeye's), but I would advise that, get the netgain displays so you can see what each motor is doing - separately. I could not tell from SmartView what was going on.


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## necrogt4 (12 mo ago)

Interesting, from what the EV Europe site says the coupler was a clutch type but that one is clearly a curved jaw coupler.

I've got a SME dash display for my first motor. I'm trying to source a second low voltage dual shaft motor at the moment and will make sure I get a display for that one too. Thanks for the tip.

How did you get around using one throttle to drive both motors? Was the shaking related to that?


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

necrogt4 said:


> Interesting, from what the EV Europe site says the coupler was a clutch type but that one is clearly a curved jaw coupler.


The shaky English translation on their web page (linked in post #3) says "flexible clutch fully processed on the right axle diameters", but the illustration on that page shows the type of coupler which _boughtnotbuilt_ received. "Clutch" clearly wasn't an appropriate translation, and any type of clutch wouldn't have been appropriate, anyway.


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## boughtnotbuilt (Oct 31, 2020)

Netgain has figured out the throttle thing with canbus - which was its own huge ordeal. You drive the first motor and canbus drives the second in synch. which works great - as far as I can tell. My problem was a configuration issue with the second motor that cause it to not want to turn, and the first motor was turning it - against it's will, which was causing some horrible things. But, once we got that all sorted, it's better. However, I could never get the 2 hyper 9's to live in harmony with the rest of the canbus system. As soon as I hit the pedal (and the amount of canbus traffic increased dramatically) the second hyper 9 would throw a canbus error. I could never figure out what the issues was. And I ended up just having the two hyper 9's on their own bus (with two resistors) and the rest of the system (BMS, charger) on their own bus, and everyone seems happy.


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## boughtnotbuilt (Oct 31, 2020)

The one advantage of their love joy style connection is that they've figured out the spacers so the thing sits in exactly the right place. It's impossible to see how the shafts are coming together because the coupler is in the way. I'd prefer the couple with 2" holes drilled around it so you can see the couple working. But, it's working now without. 

Here's it's first time moving just the other day. Had a drama with the steering that turned out to be stupid. but the EPS is strong enough to blow up the steering shaft u-joints.


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

boughtnotbuilt said:


> The one advantage of their love joy style connection is that they've figured out the spacers so the thing sits in exactly the right place. It's impossible to see how the shafts are coming together because the coupler is in the way. I'd prefer the couple with 2" holes drilled around it so you can see the couple working.


If both of the motors are "double ended" (shaft protrudes from both ends) you could mark the exposed ends of the shafts to correspond with the coupler positions, then line them up without being able to see the coupler itself.


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## necrogt4 (12 mo ago)

boughtnotbuilt said:


> Netgain has figured out the throttle thing with canbus - which was its own huge ordeal. You drive the first motor and canbus drives the second in synch. which works great - as far as I can tell. My problem was a configuration issue with the second motor that cause it to not want to turn, and the first motor was turning it - against it's will, which was causing some horrible things. But, once we got that all sorted, it's better. However, I could never get the 2 hyper 9's to live in harmony with the rest of the canbus system. As soon as I hit the pedal (and the amount of canbus traffic increased dramatically) the second hyper 9 would throw a canbus error. I could never figure out what the issues was. And I ended up just having the two hyper 9's on their own bus (with two resistors) and the rest of the system (BMS, charger) on their own bus, and everyone seems happy.


Good info on the canbus. I was planning on running the Hyper 9's, BMS and charger on the same canbus but I'll be wary of that. The main reason I wanted to do that is I'll eventually be running a digital dash that reads all of the fine details via can from the BMS and motors. Looks like I might need to run a bridge device to read messages from the Hyper 9 canbus and pass those over to another canbus (one way, so the SME controllers don't get upset).

Was it a matter of simply changing some of the configuration settings in the desktop software for the motors or did you need to get a specific config file for the motors from Netgain? Just trying to gauge how much "fun" I'll be up for...


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## boughtnotbuilt (Oct 31, 2020)

Specific config file - or clone file they call it. And then I wired it up with the main power to the Hyper 9 from the controller reversed - got so caught up making it pretty that I forgot to cross them - and they actually helped me changed the clone file to fix that as well. Everything is configurable.


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## necrogt4 (12 mo ago)

Being able to configure the wires sounds like it could certainly help with keeping things a little neater.

Do you have a thread for your build? It'd be great to see some more photos and get more info on the journey.

I'm building a 2001 MX-5 / Miata and have a thread here in a local Australian EV forum. I'm not as far along as you but I'm building my batteries from scratch using new LG pouch cells so it's taking a little longer than it would if I used Tesla cells. But this way I can get more energy in a smaller footprint. The MX-5 does not have much space to go round.


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## boughtnotbuilt (Oct 31, 2020)

No build thread. Do many people with 'opinions' here. Feel free to message me if you want


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## 57Chevy (Jan 31, 2020)

boughtnotbuilt said:


> [to]o many people with 'opinions' here


Yup. Same reason I don't have one. The ignorant, noisy trolling ruins it. Apparently we are supposed to 'man up' and deal with them but meh, not worth the effort. I guess that comes with the entry price.


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## necrogt4 (12 mo ago)

For those that are looking for couplers (other than the owner of the thread) I've been looking into the subject and there are four options that I know of.

EV Europe their kit sells for €1,095.00 which is roughly ~$1,250 USD excluding shipping. This includes a curved jaw couplers, spider and also motor coupling/adaptor.
Legacy EV (based in Arizona) $280 USD which includes stainless two jaw couplers, a urethane spider and alloy coupler cover. This does not include a motor coupling/adaptor to bolt the motors together.
RaleighEV (based in North Carolina) $1,225. This includes two steel jaw couplers, a spider and a motor coupling/adaptor (see photos, not sure on material).
EV West (based in California) ~$2,000. Apparently (second hand information from another EV supplier) make them to order from billet aluminium. So this would likely be the lightest and most expensive of the lot.
I know for sure one of these kits uses Lovejoy couplers so there are DIY options too.


Images of the RaleighEV kit:


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## 57Chevy (Jan 31, 2020)

Surely they are a standard motor coupling available from any hardware outfit. A bit of cad and 400 bucks of cnc for the adapter and you are sorted. Make a few and sell them
https://www.mcmaster.com/shaft-coup...orque-set-screw-flexible-shaft-couplings-10//


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## boughtnotbuilt (Oct 31, 2020)

necrogt4 said:


> For those that are looking for couplers (other than the owner of the thread) I've been looking into the subject and there are four options that I know of.
> 
> EV Europe their kit sells for €1,095.00 which is roughly ~$1,250 USD excluding shipping. This includes a curved jaw couplers, spider and also motor coupling/adaptor.
> Legacy EV (based in Arizona) $280 USD which includes stainless two jaw couplers, a urethane spider and alloy coupler cover. This does not include a motor coupling/adaptor to bolt the motors together.
> ...


Thanks for finding all that information. Very useful. I like the RalieghEV version because you can see and get at the coupler. I would have bought that had I known about it.


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

necrogt4 said:


> For those that are looking for couplers (other than the owner of the thread) I've been looking into the subject and there are four options that I know of.
> 
> EV Europe their kit sells for €1,095.00 which is roughly ~$1,250 USD excluding shipping. This includes a curved jaw couplers, spider and also motor coupling/adaptor.
> ...
> ...


Good round-up. 

Why would EV West's custom piece be any lighter than the EV Europe design? A one-off billet part will be heavier than a properly designed production item in the same material. I can't think of any reason to pay extra for a custom part from a company which may never respond to issues, rather than buying a proven stock item for less.


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

57Chevy said:


> Surely they are a standard motor coupling available from any hardware outfit. A bit of cad and 400 bucks of cnc for the adapter and you are sorted. Make a few and sell them
> https://www.mcmaster.com/shaft-coup...orque-set-screw-flexible-shaft-couplings-10//


If the manufacturing method is just "cnc", then would you have this carved out of one lump of aluminum? It should be a casting, right?


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

necrogt4 said:


> Images of the RaleighEV kit:
> View attachment 127109
> View attachment 127110
> View attachment 127111





boughtnotbuilt said:


> I like the RalieghEV version because you can see and get at the coupler. I would have bought that had I known about it.


I assume that the "lightning bolt" housing spacer is just a display piece... but it is amusing. 
An open version (rather than a closed tube) could work, but I would rather have a closed housing with an access port.


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## 57Chevy (Jan 31, 2020)

brian_ said:


> If the manufacturing method is just "cnc", then would you have this carved out of one lump of aluminum? It should be a casting, right?


I wouldn't go to the bother of casting something for such a low quantity, plus the quality will be a fraction of billet cnc'd. Mow it out of a brick, if I were cost conscious I'd send it overseas. There's plenty of cnc houses in China that'd spit out a handful of those of passable quality


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

57Chevy said:


> I wouldn't go to the bother of casting something for such a low quantity, plus the quality will be a fraction of billet cnc'd. Mow it out of a brick, if I were cost conscious I'd send it overseas. There's plenty of cnc houses in China that'd spit out a handful of those of passable quality


Fair enough, but if you're doing that, would you actually make money? If not, there's no point in doing it, since the EV Europe product is available.


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## 57Chevy (Jan 31, 2020)

It wouldn't be about making money, just avoiding spending 1500 bucks on something that doesn't really justify its price. I look at the total cost of a project and consider how the money could be better spend. I could buy something useful with the price difference, otoh could I earn the money in the time I'd need to invest in it. In this case, a couple of hours of cad and a few emails saves 1000 bucks is worth it


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

57Chevy said:


> It wouldn't be about making money, just avoiding spending 1500 bucks on something that doesn't really justify its price. I look at the total cost of a project and consider how the money could be better spend. I could buy something useful with the price difference, otoh could I earn the money in the time I'd need to invest in it. In this case, a couple of hours of cad and a few emails saves 1000 bucks is worth it


I think that's good logic, but the EV Europe adapter is only €1,095, so by the time you buy the shaft coupling, and the aluminum, and pay for machining, you might not save anything - I certainly wouldn't expect to save $1000... but if you can, great.  Anyone who is equipped to do the work themselves should just go ahead and do it, of course.


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## necrogt4 (12 mo ago)

brian_ said:


> Good round-up.
> 
> Why would EV West's custom piece be any lighter than the EV Europe design? A one-off billet part will be heavier than a properly designed production item in the same material. I can't think of any reason to pay extra for a custom part from a company which may never respond to issues, rather than buying a proven stock item for less.


From what I understand EV West's kit uses a custom made aluminium shaft coupler along with the motor adaptor. The rest of the kits use steel couplers which are heavier. The shaft coupler is rotational mass and less rotational mass means less wasted energy and more forward energy. It really depends on the goals and constraints of your project.

I think calling an EV West kit unproven is a stretch, they're arguably the most well known EV conversion shop worldwide for a reason. If money was no concern I'd consider their kit, but my pockets don't run that deep and being handy with CAD software I'd rather make my own. Plus there are off the shelf shaft couplers made from aluminium too (Lovejoy make them in a number of materials).


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

necrogt4 said:


> From what I understand EV West's kit uses a custom made aluminium shaft coupler along with the motor adaptor. The rest of the kits use steel couplers which are heavier. The shaft coupler is rotational mass and less rotational mass means less wasted energy and more forward energy. It really depends on the goals and constraints of your project.


The coupler rotational inertia is small compared to motor inertia, so it isn't important. Rotational inertia is only wasted energy if you don't recover it on deceleration, and even the kinetic energy stored by motor inertia is small compared to that due to the inertia of the vehicle. And this is about coupling the HyPer 9, which isn't a particularly high-speed motor. But sure, if you are drag-racing a motorcycle with a pair of HyPer 9's coupled in-line, definitely keep the coupler inertia down. 



necrogt4 said:


> I think calling an EV West kit unproven is a stretch, they're arguably the most well known EV conversion shop worldwide for a reason.


Not in production (and not even designed for production) is unproven, regardless of the experience of the shop offering to build it.


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## boughtnotbuilt (Oct 31, 2020)

Okay, I'll pose a different question, one that does have real inertia. 

My set up has a conventional transmission (NV4500) and the CAN EV bellhousing adapter, and a conventional flywheel and clutch. There's a wobble in the drivetrain now (none before transmission was attached). I'm assuming it's the flywheel being slightly out of balance. Since I have to take it apart again, I'm going to replace the flywheel and clutch with a lightweight racing model. I understand if I get a racing flywheel, I need to get a matching clutch. However, I can't get any of the racing guys to answer the phone. If anyone here can recommend a lightweight flywheel and clutch.


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## necrogt4 (12 mo ago)

boughtnotbuilt said:


> If anyone here can recommend a lightweight flywheel and clutch.


As I'm building a MX-5 / Miata for track use, weight is a big concern. And with my single motor setup (the second motor is a new addition) I use a Fidanza lightweight aluminium flywheel (which has a replaceable steel friction plate), Exedy cushion button clutch and ARP flywheel bolts.

The beauty of the Fidanza flywheel is obviously weight but you can also remove the steel tooth ring that would normally be connected to the starter motor, further reducing weight. My flywheel minus the starter motor ring is 47% (8.2lbs) lighter than standard.

It's also worth noting that you won't need to change gears like you do in an ICE powered vehicle, which is why I went for a heavy duty clutch (to hold the torque at the cost of tougher changes). You'll probably find that 3rd gear will be suitable around town and 5th (or 6th if the box has it) for highway driving. I can't speak to any off-road gearing though as it is most certainly not my forte. But would be hella fun with electric power, and far less things to go wrong than an ICE vehicle (especially if you ever went direct drive).


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

necrogt4 said:


> The beauty of the Fidanza flywheel is obviously weight but you can also remove the steel tooth ring that would normally be connected to the starter motor, further reducing weight. My flywheel minus the starter motor ring is 47% (8.2lbs) lighter than standard.


Good feature of any aluminum flywheel (because the ring gear won't be aluminum, so it's a separate piece). Lots of stock factory flywheels have removable ring gears, too - in some cases the gear can just be heated up and knocked off with a hammer.


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## electric_jeep (Jan 29, 2020)

brian_ said:


> Good feature of any aluminum flywheel (because the ring gear won't be aluminum, so it's a separate piece). Lots of stock factory flywheels have removable ring gears, too - in some cases the gear can just be heated up and knocked off with a hammer.


Very late to the party but thoroughly enjoyed this thread/journey.

Might be obvious to some but keeping the ring gear allowed me to preserve the tachometer functionality for free. I through I’d have to try to use the CANBUS RPM from the SME and/or hack together a sensor to feed to the ECU.


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## remy_martian (Feb 4, 2019)

What tachometer on this planet uses ring gear teeth?


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

Royus said:


> Might be obvious to some but keeping the ring gear allowed me to preserve the tachometer functionality for free.


It's not going to be obvious to many. Gasoline engines have ignition systems which supply the tach signal. There are diesels which use a sensor and the starter ring gear teeth; although that makes some sense (there are lots of teeth and therefore high angular resolution), I was not aware of it before checking today... but I've never owned a diesel.


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## remy_martian (Feb 4, 2019)

Modern diesels use a crank or cam sensor. Old ones use a cable drive. 

The pulse rate off ring gear teeth would be insane for an electric tach application - I was basically asking which specific vehicle uses ring gear teeth.


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

Role of the Crankshaft Position Sensor in Your Mercedes


> The crankshaft position sensor is found near the flywheel ring gear. There are 2 designs of sensor which your Mercedes may use: an inductive sensor or a hall generator. The sensor works by using the rotational movement of the ring gear, which alters a magnetic field. The magnetic field will generate a variety of voltage signals inside the sensor which are transmitted to the sensor control unit. The sensor control unit is able to convert this information into usable data, which allows it to calculate the crankshafts’ speed and position. It will then pass on to the ECU.


I don't know how widespread this is in Mercedes engines, or just Mercedes diesel engines, or whether other manufacturers do the same, although I found this in an online forum discussion:


> Audi used ring-gear teeth for engine position on some engines (135 teeth on 5 cylinders and 136 teeth on others). But they included an extra single tooth and sensor elsewhere on the flywheel specifically to reference the 135/136 teeth correctly and had the normal cam sensor for cylinder phasing.


A Rennlist discussion noted that some Porsches use a reluctor ring which is not the starter ring gear, but it mounted right beside it with almost as many teeth, so if the starter ring gear teeth are square-edged enough for the sensor to trip cleanly, it's a viable approach.

Of course the high angular resolution also means a high pulse rate, much higher than the cylinder firing rate, so to operate a tach from this signal it would need to be divided down substantially. If any vehicle uses a crank position sensor signal to drive a traditional electric tachometer, they are probably generating the tach pulses from the engine ECU rather than using the sensor pulses directly, but that's only a guess.

Even when the crankshaft position sensor uses a reluctor wheel mounted at the front pulley or beside a crank throw, it still has many more teeth than there are cylinders (to get that position resolution), so it won't work to directly drive a tach which is calibrated for ignition pulses.
Crankshaft position sensor: how it works, symptoms, problems, testing


Regardless of what odd German vehicles do, in an EV conversion the flywheel or coupler could be fitted with the appropriate number of reluctor teeth to drive a tach - the starter ring gear isn't required.


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## remy_martian (Feb 4, 2019)

"But they included an extra single tooth and sensor elsewhere on the flywheel specifically to reference the 135/136 teeth"

So, during low RPM starting, they might calibrate the other sensor using gear teeth and that index tooth(which a tach doesn't care about), but it still doesn't say there's a tach that uses the starter teeth. 

I'd like to know which vehicle @Royus had that uses the starter ring gear teeth exclusively as a 14,000 pps tach signal.


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## RT PERFORMANCE (6 mo ago)

brian_ said:


> All true. Visually, the EV Europe kit mentioned earlier appears to include a jaw coupling, which makes sense to accommodate the minimal misalignment inherent in the rigid housing connection approach. The elastomeric spider (visible ends are yellow in the illustration) doesn't need any lubrication, and the housing will protect all components from dirt and moisture.
> View attachment 121853
> 
> 
> ...


Couldnt you use a driveshaft coupler. Like a companion flange off of a 8.8 ford rear end. Put a good hardened ujoint in and it should hold up to 800.ft.lbs yes ?
Maybe I'm wrong but seems to me the flange should absorb any misalinement issues. I Mean you should get it as true as possible anyway but the other option if hp and torque are lower you could use a beefed up rag joint type coupling and maybe use a higher durometer rubber or simalar


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## remy_martian (Feb 4, 2019)

A failed driveline during a traffic merge can get you killed.


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