# [EVDL] Choosing a charger



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

My conversion is coming along slowly and I've been given a set of batteries
to get it moving when I finally get it all together, which won't be for a
few months yet.
I figured the first purchase I should make is a charger. Right now it's
going to charge a set of 12 T-875's for 96v. But eventually it will be
charging
6 or 8v's for 120 / 128v or something around there. - not an ideal situation
to have batteries come first, and undersized, but hey, you can't beat free
for the time being.

Is this a good charger choice, with the boost/buck ? :
http://www.cloudelectric.com/product_p/bc-sc30-120dso.htm

I realize I'm limiting myself a bit with only 110v, but I'd like to save a
little to spend elsewhere on the project. I'd love a PFC 30 

So for my 96v pack, I'll be generous and say these used batteries maybe have
about 120ah of useable capacity left.
96v x 120 = 11.5kwh

The charger can push 17.5 amps so 96v x 17.5a x 7hrs = 11.7kwh (likely
closer to 8, due to ~80% efficiency ?)

I would like to be able to charge a bit faster, and of course be able to use
208/240v are there any other chargers that could do this
that are not a Manzanita ?
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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> On 3 May 2011 at 11:39, Dave Hymers wrote:
> 
> > Is this a good charger choice, with the boost/buck ? :
> > http://www.cloudelectric.com/product_p/bc-sc30-120dso.htm
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Dave,

If I understand correctly, you want to buy a charger to 
-recharge a pack of wet-cell batteries
-currently the pack is 96V, but that may change in the future to 
128VDC
-you are thinking a variable output charger so different pack voltages
can be charged
-cost is a important issue
-you plan to charge at home off a 120/240VAC 30A dryer outlet to
maximize your recharging current. So, the charger can be either a
120VAC or 240VAC input and draw up to 24A AC

I haven't tested the Russco charger, but I am sure others on the evdl 
have and can weigh in here with their experiences, and corrections to 
any incorrect assumptions I make. I am not recommending this source
but lets look at it to see what the charger specs are
http://www.cloudelectric.com/product_p/bc-sc30-120dso.htm

I am thinking that the wattage will stay the same therefore as the 
pack voltage goes up later, the charge current will be less. A 
charger's maximum charge current does not mean you will achieve that 
current at your pack voltage. It might be 17+A at 72V but less and 
less as the pack voltage goes up and up. 

For a 96V pack I do not know if you would also need to buy the 
buck/boost option. But I bet for the higher pack voltages you will 
need the boost from the buck/boost option. So add the cost of that 
option when you bump your pack voltage up.

Lets assume the SC 30-120 charger shown is usable without any 
additional costs of having to buy those options (ready to go as is). 
That would about $1200+SH.

I have not tested this one but I found another charger that is 2.5
times less costly and has a 15A max rate
http://www.cloudelectric.com/product_p/bc-qpa-6-127-fslash-6.htm
"Quick Charge" Variable Multi Voltage 6V-127V
Again you would need to delve into this more to know what charge 
current you would get when charging a 96V pack, but the cost is much 
lower $460+S&H

You seem to be limiting your choices because you want a do-all charger.
If you chose a 96V charger now at a lower cost, and then choice a 
higher voltage charger later when you finalize on your new pack, 
you might save money.

I have not tested this one, nor recommend this source, but look at
http://www.electricmotordepot.com/products/ElCon-Charger-PFC1500.html
as a 96V pack charger $575+S&H
http://www.thunderstruck-ev.com/index.php?dispatch=products.view&product_id=72
EL-PFC-1500 $555+S&H
Specs: http://www.thunderstruck-ev.com/Manuals/PFC1500.pdf

When you bump the pack voltage up, you could get another charger and 
sell the other, recouping some costs. You would save about $80 + the 
cost of the buck/boost option and what $$ you recoup.

There is also an advantage with the chargers above in that they are 
isolated, whereas the manzanita micro and russco chargers are 
un-isolated. This is mainly an issue if you plan to do what did for 
years: connect multiple charger outputs to a pack (chargers in parallel).

For me, if I were doing a conversion like you, my choice would be to 
have an isolated ~1kW 120VAC input charger, and wait until I could 
afford a pfc-30 un-isolated charger. This would let me charge with 
one, or the other, or both at the same time. 

The new EVSE going in near me has dual level 1&2 charging at the same 
time abilities. So, why charge at a public charging spot at 6+kW when 
there I can get another 1+kW by using an additional charger in 
parallel. But that is my thing/style, and may not be yours.




{brucedp.150m.com}


On Tue, 03 May 2011 11:39 -0700, "Dave Hymers" <[email protected]> 


> wrote: ...
> > I figured the first purchase I should make is a charger ... to
> charge a set of 12 T-875's for 96v. But eventually it will be
> charging 6 or 8v's for 120 / 128v or something around there.
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Dave,

I've used the Russco, and like it. It is well made, though hard to work 
on if repairs are needed. It is basically a non-isolated 
phase-controlled charger with an improved power factor. It has controls 
to regulate the charging voltage, current, and options to control time 
as well. It has a GFCI, which is vital on a non-isolated charger.

When plugged into a 120vac 15amp circuit, the maximum charging current 
is always less. You'll probably get around 12 amps DC into a 96v pack.

You'll need the boost transformer to charge a 128v pack. On a 15amp 
circuit, you'll probably get around 8 amps DC into a 128v pack.

I have no knowledge of the particular Quickcharger mentioned, but other 
models of Quickcharger have been less than impressive. This one appears 
to be a big transformer in a box with a phase controlled output, and no 
voltage control or regulation at all.

The Elcons appear to be cheap copies of the DeltaQ chargers. Myself, I'd 
go with the DeltaQ instead. They have a 96v model, but not 128v.

-- 
Lee A. Hart | Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave N | Forget the perfect offering
Sartell MN 56377	| There is a crack in everything
leeahart earthlink.net	| That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen

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| Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Dave,
>
> If I understand correctly, you want to buy a charger to
> -recharge a pack of wet-cell batteries
> -currently the pack is 96V, but that may change in the future to
> 128VDC
> -you are thinking a variable output charger so different pack voltages
> can be charged
> -cost is a important issue
> -you plan to charge at home off a 120/240VAC 30A dryer outlet to
> maximize your recharging current. So, the charger can be either a
> 120VAC or 240VAC input and draw up to 24A AC
>
> I haven't tested the Russco charger, but I am sure others on the evdl
> have and can weigh in here with their experiences, and corrections to
> any incorrect assumptions I make.

And I will. Comments inserted below.

I am not recommending this source.

Why not, Bruce? Do you presently own an EV?

> but lets look at it to see what the charger specs are
> http://www.cloudelectric.com/product_p/bc-sc30-120dso.htm

This address from Cloud Electric shows obsolete information on the Russco
line of chargers. The Cloud brothers' haven't purchased Russco chargers
for several years, but still advertise them for sale. There are other EV
parts suppliers and conversion companies that show old Russco chargers on
their websites, but have never purchased a Russco charger.

> I am thinking that the wattage will stay the same therefore as the
> pack voltage goes up later, the charge current will be less. A
> charger's maximum charge current does not mean you will achieve that
> current at your pack voltage. It might be 17+A at 72V but less and
> less as the pack voltage goes up and up.

Not really. An SC30 will put out 17-1/2 amps into a 72 volt pack as well
as a 108 volt pack; a 120 volt pack, about 15 amps.
>
> For a 96V pack I do not know if you would also need to buy the
> buck/boost option. But I bet for the higher pack voltages you will
> need the boost from the buck/boost option. So add the cost of that
> option when you bump your pack voltage up.

A boost transformer is required for packs over 120 volts.

> Lets assume the SC 30-120 charger shown is usable without any
> additional costs of having to buy those options (ready to go as is).
> That would about $1200+SH.

Actually, the cost of a Russco SC30 from the Russco factory was $989.
>
> I have not tested this one but I found another charger that is 2.5
> times less costly and has a 15A max rate
> http://www.cloudelectric.com/product_p/bc-qpa-6-127-fslash-6.htm
> "Quick Charge" Variable Multi Voltage 6V-127V
> Again you would need to delve into this more to know what charge
> current you would get when charging a 96V pack, but the cost is much
> lower $460+S&H

Hmmm, more "not tested this" chargers. Quick Charge 42 pound 120 volt
chargers will not provide the battery manufacturers' C/10 charging rate. 
Even QC does not recommend their 120 VAC chargers for the 6 volt golf cart
batteries. Read before speaking.
>
> You seem to be limiting your choices because you want a do-all charger.
> If you chose a 96V charger now at a lower cost, and then choice a
> higher voltage charger later when you finalize on your new pack,
> you might save money.
>
> I have not tested this one, nor recommend this source, but look at
> http://www.electricmotordepot.com/products/ElCon-Charger-PFC1500.html
> as a 96V pack charger $575+S&H
> http://www.thunderstruck-ev.com/index.php?dispatch=products.view&product_id=72
> EL-PFC-1500 $555+S&H
> Specs: http://www.thunderstruck-ev.com/Manuals/PFC1500.pdf

Wonderful Chinese copy cat chargers that can't be adjusted.
>
> When you bump the pack voltage up, you could get another charger and
> sell the other, recouping some costs. You would save about $80 + the
> cost of the buck/boost option and what $$ you recoup.
>
> There is also an advantage with the chargers above in that they are
> isolated, whereas the manzanita micro and russco chargers are
> un-isolated. This is mainly an issue if you plan to do what did for
> years: connect multiple charger outputs to a pack (chargers in parallel).
>
> For me, if I were doing a conversion like you, my choice would be to
> have an isolated ~1kW 120VAC input charger, and wait until I could
> afford a pfc-30 un-isolated charger. This would let me charge with
> one, or the other, or both at the same time.

My experience with the Charge Point chargers in Santa Rosa, CA, is once
the unit is swiped with my card, I have a choice of either, a) open the
locked door covering the 15-20 amp 120 VAC door, plug in my cord, and shut
the door, which will lock, or b) depress the lock on the 240 volt J1772
plug and withdraw the plug and place into the socket on my car. I don't
believe I can charge with 120 VAC and 240 VAC at the same time.
>
> The new EVSE going in near me has dual level 1&2 charging at the same
> time abilities. So, why charge at a public charging spot at 6+kW when
> there I can get another 1+kW by using an additional charger in
> parallel. But that is my thing/style, and may not be yours.

As I recall, from many years back, when you, Bruce, owned a Blazer EV, you
used the Rudman chargers, going from a PFC50, which got lost via UPS, and
downsized to a PFC20 or 30. As the Rudman PFC charger is an adjustable
charger, the only other commercial adjustable charger I know of is the
Russco.

Summary: Use The manufacturer's website to obtain the most recent and
correct information on their products.

Russ Kaufmann

RUSSCO Engineering

http://russcoev.com

HyPower 240 Volt EV Charger


> {brucedp.150m.com}
>
>
> On Tue, 03 May 2011 11:39 -0700, "Dave Hymers" <[email protected]>


> > wrote: ...
> >> I figured the first purchase I should make is a charger ... to
> > charge a set of 12 T-875's for 96v. But eventually it will be
> > charging 6 or 8v's for 120 / 128v or something around there.
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Helpful posts from Lee and Russ lead me to suggest that if Dave 
still has questions of Russ' product, he may want to ask Russ 
directly. 


I can add my experience with Coulomb EVSE:

The Coulomb CT2102 dual level 1&2 EVSE does allow both AC sources
to be used at the same time. But not when using only one ChargePass 
(proximity / access) card. 

I tried this at the installed CT2100 EVSE near me. When a person uses 
(swipes) their ChargePass card the first time on an EVSE, it is to 
enable or begin the charging (after the "Authorizing" display, both 
solenoids "Click" to unlock the J1772 coupler from its cradle/holder, 
and unlock the lower door that allows access to the 5-20 outlet). A 
second swipe of the same card tells the EVSE to stop your charge.

The CT2100's programming expects another (different) ChargePass card 
to be swiped to access whatever "port" is not being used (port 1 is 
the 5-20, port 2 to is the J1772 coupler).

So, for two plug-in vehicles or EVs to use both AC power sources at 
the same time from a Coulomb CT2100, the EVSE's programming would
expect two different cards be swiped. To use both AC power sources
as I previously posted, I would carry with me more than one 
ChargePass card.

This Coulomb EVSE model is not like the old EVSE (a TAL 2000 SPI, or 
AVCON) where you can just jam the inductive paddle or conductive AVCON
coupler into the EV's charging port and everything begins charging, or
yank it out and the charging stops (the older evii ICS-200 AVCON would
complain verbally in a synthetic-woman's voice that the stop button 
should be pushed first before disconnecting, but the later evii model 
DS-50, and the AVCON Powerpak did not care - just yank and go). 

I suppose if I still had my Blazer EV conversion, and wanted to use 
all six on-board chargers, I would need to find a charging spot with 
access to six Coulomb EVSE ports, carry with me extension cables to 
reach them all, and have six ChargePass (access) cards.

If you missed the 'Free ChargePass Card' for Earthday deal, as I 
previously posted,
http://evdl.org/archive/#nabble-td3464281
the regular cost of a ChargePass card is $10 each
https://www.chargepointportal.net/index.php/authz/login.html

The above pertains to Coulomb EVSE which I have used. But in other 
parts of the U.S. their may be different brands and models of EVSE 
being or have been installed. At this time, I have not used those 
other brands or models of EVSE. Check those EVSE company's web site 
for details or for more info of their EVSE products.






{brucedp.150m.com}




-


> [email protected] wrote:
> ...
> > My experience with the Charge Point chargers in Santa Rosa, CA, is once
> > the unit is swiped with my card, I have a choice of either, a) open the
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Thanks for the information Russ, You've got a sale there ! I'm considering
the SC50 now ..
I'll contact you shortly.



> <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> > > Dave,
> > >
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Thanks for the information Russ, You've got a sale there ! I'm considering
> the SC50 now ..
> I'll contact you shortly.
>
>


> <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> I have been manufacturing 120 VAC EV chargers since 1997. When the 240
> VAC Level 2 J1772 charging became available, I pursued a 240 volt charger.
> ...


----------

