# Soliton or Kelly?



## winzeracer (Apr 3, 2012)

Hi All,

I am trying trying to decide which controller I want to run with my new Agni 111 rdr (50kw peak) for my eKart conversion. I will be running at 84v or 96v still deciding on that.

I really like the Soliton because it is beefy and modern, has a great interface, and I should not need to run the liquid cooling ( i don't think) because I will only be using 1/3 of its capacity( 150kw).

The Kelly I would choose is a 1000amp Racing Regen PM ( http://kellycontroller.com/racing-co...gen-p-757.html ). The Kelly is not my favorite b/c they are just not great quality thus why I would way over size it and go with the 1000a even though I would only ever max out at 600a. But having an "engine break" may be a great advantage on the track. I am not to concerned with using regen for charging purposes, but rather better car control. But with this Kelly I would probably (from what I read) need to at least use some serious fans and or heatsink to keep it cool, and hopefully not have to make a liquid cold plate setup.

*Has anyone run these Kelly "Racing" PM regen controllers? * I read Ripperton's thread and he had to make pretty serious modifications to his.

Any words of wisdom will be appreciated.

Thanks.


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## Jan (Oct 5, 2009)

There is no choice: The Agni motor is a kind of DC motors, the Soliton is designed for that type, the Kelly is designed for PMAC motors.


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## winzeracer (Apr 3, 2012)

Jan said:


> There is no choice: The Agni motor is a kind of DC motors, the Soliton is designed for that type, the Kelly is designed for PMAC motors.


No exactly, there are people that run Soliton's with Agni's. Jozzer even recommended using a Soliton JR for this motor and he does the development for Agni.

Edit: I read your post wrong sorry. These Kelly's are used for PM brushed also.


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## skooler (Mar 26, 2011)

I have nothing but good words for Evnetics. Great service. Great Controllers


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## winzeracer (Apr 3, 2012)

skooler said:


> I have nothing but good words for Evnetics. Great service. Great Controllers


Ya I hear ya, I really like them too. Just want input on the Kelly so I can make the final decision.


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## onegreenev (May 18, 2012)

If you want to hit the race track with a Kelly you best get a guarantee from Kelly that it will do what you want it to do and live with out fail. The track is not where you want a failure. I'd be more inclined to go with Soliton but since you really don't need 1000 plus amps and air cooling I'd suggest to you a Synkromotive controller. No failures for any Synkromotive Controller being used today. They will give you plenty of voltage and plenty of amps. You can actually have a larger pack voltage and limit the voltage and current if you want or need. Light weight and very very robust. I have two. My Beta testing with Kelly and some of my other run-ins with Kelly have not been super good. Not terrible and customer service is good but shipping is slow. They do and will repair any fault but Kelly has had too many failures to reliably recommend them any longer. I used to say they are good for what they are but I'd say they are good for golf carts and industrial equipment. Not for high voltage/amp street driven vehicles. Pretty basic. If you do an easy driven 144 volt 800 amp controller with your medium to small car then Kellly may be the choice for you. I have a new KDH144800D Series controller/heatsink for $800 and I will include shipping in the US only. It's a choice and a much lower cost one at that. If you consider trying it contact off list please. 

But best would be soliton or synkro for a good reliable controller. 

Pete


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## Jozzer (Mar 29, 2009)

A soliton jnr would probably give you the best control, and let you "abuse" the motor at lower RPM without allowing full current at higher speeds. It can't do regen however, and is a very big beast for 40kw peak (50kw will burn the motor fast - however you can allow 450A at lower speeds for very short durations).

A Kelly KDHE 600A would be the most cost effective way to run it, and will certainly provide the power required, though as mentioned above quality control and support are not anywhere near the levels you could expect from EVNetics. It will support regen however (though this is of marginal use in racing, since you don't want to be heating the motor/brushes to brake as well as acellerate fast - it will just lower the average power you can use during a race ultimatly). I have most experience with these Kelly's on Agni's, and can say that if your lucky enough to get a controller that all the features work on it will probably do fine - but they are not all equal! There are a number of race bikes out there that still have KDHE's fitted and are working fine after several years abuse - but we went through a lot of support/RTB's to get them stable..

I've no experience with the Synkromotive controller at all, and none of my customers have ever reported its use with an Agni - you'd be on your own there!
Bear in mind that both the Syncro and the Soliton were designed for series motors rather than PM motors, though I've had at least some experience on the dyno (with Agni's) with the Soliton and it performed well.
An Alltrax (with a dongle to convert speed throttle to current/torque throttle) would be a good fit here - however they don't make a 100v capable model

No ideal choices out there yet in this power bracket..

Regarding power levels on the 111rdr motors, it must be remembered that although these are powerful and efficient motors, they have very little thermal headroom. If you plan on running it too the edge (it sounds like you are) you must have proper thermal protection (aim to keep brushholder temps below 95C), and work your levels up slowly as you refine the cooling arrangements and tune the controller.

Hope this helps!

Steve


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## frodus (Apr 12, 2008)

Jan said:


> There is no choice: The Agni motor is a kind of DC motors, the Soliton is designed for that type, the Kelly is designed for PMAC motors.


Why did you comment at all? You obviously have no clue about what kelly does and doesn't make or sell.

Kelly has a large selection on motor controllers for anything from Series wound, to sepex, to AC Induction, BLDC and PM brushed motors. The controller in the link he provided is designed for PM Brushed motors, not PMAC.


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## Bowser330 (Jun 15, 2008)

So since the Soliton Jr. is made for such high voltage (340Vmax), you would connect the Agnis in series to share the voltage and go full amps to each, correct?


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## frodus (Apr 12, 2008)

Bowser330, From his post above, winzeracer is only running one 111 rdr.

To Winzeracer, If you are wanting to use 2, DO NOT parallel them.... this is a really bad idea and requires a ton of tuning (Ask Steve) to get them working right. Put motors in series if you do dual so the current is equal.

You don't really need to do dual though, with the 111 rdr, it's a larger more powerful motor. The Soliton Jr works from 9-340VDC pack voltage.... so you should be fine with 1 motor (or two) and just about any voltage you'll put on that Kart.


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## EVfun (Mar 14, 2010)

Let me be blunt...

If it is a choice between a Kelly controller or a Soliton controller there is no contest. Soliton is the clear winner on reliability, features, support, and power. Kelly is not even in second place. I can think of a number of controllers I'd choose before a Kelly controller.


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## winzeracer (Apr 3, 2012)

EVfun said:


> Let me be blunt...
> 
> If it is a choice between a Kelly controller or a Soliton controller there is no contest. Soliton is the clear winner on reliability, features, support, and power. Kelly is not even in second place. I can think of a number of controllers I'd choose before a Kelly controller.


Yes but nothing else has regen for PM brushed. I clearly stated that I like the Soliton much much better. I just would like to have a controller that does not exist. I really want a Soliton with regen  Maybe Teseract and make that happen.

Thanks for all the other input. 
Onegreen: First off thanks for the great blog and info that you give away. Keep it coming. I do like the SyncroMotive, but since Steve(Jozzer) has tested Agni's with the Soliton that is what I will end up going with.

Steve: Thanks for the extra info on the motor, and your 2 pennies were pretty much what I was looking for, like I said i really wish there was a better matched, better quality regen controller. 

Frodus: Ya just one motor for now  J/k this thing should not need any more power.

I am really excited to see this motor will post pics in my build thread when it gets here. Here is the like for my thread

http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showthread.php/silent-scream-build-thread-75205.html


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## dougingraham (Jul 26, 2011)

winzeracer said:


> Yes but nothing else has regen for PM brushed. I clearly stated that I like the Soliton much much better. I just would like to have a controller that does not exist. I really want a Soliton with regen  Maybe Teseract and make that happen.


It isn't a good idea to do regen on a PM brushed motor. The timing is all wrong and you will cause erosion to the brushes and damage to the edges of the comm segments. With separate excitation on an interpoled field winding you can do regen and not ruin the motor but that isn't a PM motor. Do you want regen? From everything I have read it really doesn't gain you enough to be worth the cost at this time. When the OEM's are making cars in the hundreds of thousands and buying motors in the millions we will see the prices go well below $1000 and probably around $1000 for motor and controller combo. But that wont happen for a while.

For you application get a Soliton Jr. It has all the bells and whistles and if looks count it is bling for your EV in addition to being functional.


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## winzeracer (Apr 3, 2012)

dougingraham said:


> It isn't a good idea to do regen on a PM brushed motor. The timing is all wrong and you will cause erosion to the brushes and damage to the edges of the comm segments. With separate excitation on an interpoled field winding you can do regen and not ruin the motor but that isn't a PM motor. Do you want regen? From everything I have read it really doesn't gain you enough to be worth the cost at this time. When the OEM's are making cars in the hundreds of thousands and buying motors in the millions we will see the prices go well below $1000 and probably around $1000 for motor and controller combo. But that wont happen for a while.
> 
> For you application get a Soliton Jr. It has all the bells and whistles and if looks count it is bling for your EV in addition to being functional.


I really wanted the "engine brake" for late corner braking, no one had explained that though thanks. I will be going with the Soliton, she will be displayed with pride  bling bling.


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## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

I'll chime in now that the OP has made his decision...



dougingraham said:


> It isn't a good idea to do regen on a PM brushed motor. The timing is all wrong and you will cause erosion to the brushes and damage to the edges of the comm segments....


Yes, this is exactly right. Another issue as mentioned to me via email from a Formula Student (?) team is that the PM motor would overheat if regen braking was used because it raised the average power handled by the motor.

I should note for completeness that this caveat applies to any motor that can do regen braking, not just SepEx or PM DC motors. AC induction and BLDC can both overheat from regen braking, with the latter at additional risk of demagnetization.


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## Jozzer (Mar 29, 2009)

The 111 is not a larger motor, just more efficient under heavy loadings (bigger magnets, larger airgap and wound for higher voltage but with the same cross sectional area of copper)..
100v max, so you'd want three in series to get the best of a Soliton Jnr.

The Agni's will handle regen well enough with moderately advanced timing (under 200A motorside @ around 1mm of advance), but when fully advanced for race use you will experience arcing at high currents OR high rpm..

Parrallel PM motors CAN work as long as both motors are carefully matched. There have been far more parallel Agni racing than series - due to the lack of decent 200v controllers. Timing must be set very carefully, and checked at all power levels. Data from the qualifying lap of TT showed 2 motors pulling within 5% of equal amps all through the lap.

Motors in series do carry one nasty risk - if the coupling device (chain or shaft, or even the keyway) lets go then one motor can immediatly spin past safe tolearances and would explode..


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## Bowser330 (Jun 15, 2008)

Jozzer said:


> The 111 is not a larger motor, just more efficient under heavy loadings (bigger magnets, larger airgap and wound for higher voltage but with the same cross sectional area of copper)..
> 100v max, so you'd want three in series to get the best of a Soliton Jnr.
> 
> Motors in series do carry one nasty risk - if the coupling device (chain or shaft, or even the keyway) lets go then one motor can immediatly spin past safe tolearances and would explode..


Can Agni motors be built/stacked on the same shaft like the Lynch motors can?....see reference below,

http://www.lmcltd.net/uploads/files/data sheet for LMC Motors.pdf
_Any model of the LEM-200 can be made up into the 2X2 version this is 2 motors married together on a single shaft see installation drawing for details_

Or would they have to be coupled "externally" using chain/belt drives or couplers, etc.

25kw cont.
50kw peak @ 6000rpm
26lbs
2500$ in limited qty preproduction volumes 

x3 = 
7500$
75kw cont.
150kw peak @ 6000rpm
78lbs

2000$ Soliton1 Jr.
15lbs.

150kw @ 6000rpm 
93lbs motors + controller !


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## Jozzer (Mar 29, 2009)

No, the Agni's can't be stacked like the LMC's - and in any case you wouldn't be able to run them full power if you did. Cooling is restricted, as well as access to brushes etc.

50kw is a bit of a stretch from any data supplied - even 40kw would still require revving right out and still supplying 400A (not that I haven't done it mind!), you wouldn't want to be treating it like that on an every day basis..


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## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

Jozzer said:


> Parrallel PM motors CAN work as long as both motors are carefully matched. There have been far more parallel Agni racing than series - due to the lack of decent 200v controllers. Timing must be set very carefully, and checked at all power levels. Data from the qualifying lap of TT showed 2 motors pulling within 5% of equal amps all through the lap....


Paralleled PM motors behave like two voltage sources - any difference in voltage constant (kV) between the two motors results in one acting as a generator and the other a motor, and that sets up a circulating current on the paralleling cables. The best way to see how well matched the motors are, then, is to monitor the circulating current on one of the parallel cables while the bike is coasting, decelerating with regen, and accelerating.


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## Dennis (Feb 25, 2008)

Regen braking is no where near as rough on a motor than plug braking is. Yet I see PM motors on equipment being routinely used in this fashion without damage. In robot competitions the motors are plugged brake to bring them to a complete stop before going the other way. The same is true for forklifts, yet I see no damage on the commutators or motors overheating. Forklifts have to run for 6 hours or more in a hot or cold warehouse environment, but I have not seen one failure of motors. Any decent motor for traction applications should have class H insulation anyways and any controller that has a reputation would gradually slow down the motor before changing direction or to bring to a stop. If a controller tries to slam the motor to a stop then of course there will be a problem. But that would be a cheap junk controller. 

If you want regen then the best are Curtis or Sevcon Millipak for PM motors or SepEx motors.


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## Jozzer (Mar 29, 2009)

Dennis said:


> Regen braking is no where near as rough on a motor than plug braking is. Yet I see PM motors on equipment being routinely used in this fashion without damage. In robot competitions the motors are plugged brake to bring them to a complete stop before going the other way. The same is true for forklifts, yet I see no damage on the commutators or motors overheating. Forklifts have to run for 6 hours or more in a hot or cold warehouse environment, but I have not seen one failure of motors. Any decent motor for traction applications should have class H insulation anyways and any controller that has a reputation would gradually slow down the motor before changing direction or to bring to a stop. If a controller tries to slam the motor to a stop then of course there will be a problem. But that would be a cheap junk controller.
> 
> If you want regen then the best are Curtis or Sevcon Millipak for PM motors or SepEx motors.


 Race track use is quite different from robot war. If you've got a motor that will take say 400A continuous, in a race setting that might mean you can have the throttle pegged at 600A for 50-60% of the race length. IF you start applying regen during the time when the throttle is off (braking), then you must reduce the amount of time the throttle is pegged when not braking.
I imagine a robot doesnt weight 300kg+ with rider and need to be slowed from 130mph in a hurry multiple times in an event..rather it would just be braking the motors inertia..

Of course, if you can fit a motor that can handle more power than you can throw at it on the track then you can regen brake - but you also have a heavier vehicle. THis also goes for the controller..

I can assure you that I HAVE seen motors damaged on the track for these very reasons..


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

Jozzer said:


> I can assure you that I HAVE seen motors damaged on the track for these very reasons..


And I've seen many forklift motors failed due to plug braking.

My track experience fits closely with what Jozz describes.


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