# Tesla Technology vs DIY



## EVDoer (May 20, 2013)

Guys,
Sorry for the noob question. I did a quick search and didn't find anything.

*Tesla I think is onto something big*. Their EV car's have ton's of performance and have the range to boot. However I have yet to see one DIY project that comes close? Can we build an EV car that has ton's of power AND can also drive 100+ miles on a single charge for under 30-40k? When I read these forums it's apparent that their is a significant difference between what the market is now offering and what is available to us as DIY group. Is $$$$$ COST of the batteries is the most significant cost differentiator with Tesla cars correct? 

Can someone tell me what type of EV technology is Tesla using. Are their motors BLDC? AC or DC?? 

What type of controller are they using that would equate to something in the DYI realm?

What type of batteries are they using? A123's, LiPo or something else?


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## Ziggythewiz (May 16, 2010)

Ever been to google?

For $30-40k your reqs aren't even tough.

If you don't even know what kind of motor or batteries Tesla has, why do you think they're so great?


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## Ampster (Oct 6, 2012)

EVDoer said:


> Guys,
> Sorry for the noob question. I did a quick search and didn't find anything.
> 
> ..........
> ...


They use a 3 phase AC induction motor, which I believe is made by AC Propulsion in Southern California.

They use thousands of Panasonic LifeP0 batteries the size of an AA cell. The battery management system is proprietary to Tesla.

I have a 2012 Toyota RAV4EV which has a Tesla drivetrain. It runs great but was 3 times more expensive than my 74 VW conversion.


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## hbthink (Dec 21, 2010)

My VW Cabriolet has 38 mile range but thats all I needed. It uses round cells like Telsa. Unlike OEM it uses DC motor which I like for its simplicity and better torque at the low end IMHO. 

I did just get a used 2011 Leaf which I like for its range and at under 10K it cost about what my conversions run. It was in an accident and is under repair but will be a good EV for under 15K when I'm done. I have photos posted around here somewhere.

Steve


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

EVDoer said:


> Guys,
> Sorry for the noob question. I did a quick search and didn't find anything.
> 
> *Tesla I think is onto something big*. Their EV car's have ton's of performance and have the range to boot. However I have yet to see one DIY project that comes close? Can we build an EV car that has ton's of power AND can also drive 100+ miles on a single charge for under 30-40k? When I read these forums it's apparent that their is a significant difference between what the market is now offering and what is available to us as DIY group. Is $$$$$ COST of the batteries is the most significant cost differentiator with Tesla cars correct?
> ...


I don't know what's up with ziggy, but you can find most of your Tesla questions answered here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tesla_Roadster

A lot of the cost of the Tesla is associated with the company start up and product development and validation which DIYers don't have to endure. 

Ampster mentioned ACPropulsion Company. I think they supplied drives to Tesla for early prototypes but are not supplying production motors and controllers. You may be able to buy an ACP drive of similar specs to the Tesla drive for about $35k. And you might be able to buy or build a battery similar to the Tesla for $40k. By that time, you might as well buy the damn Tesla


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## hbthink (Dec 21, 2010)

Good luck finding an all aluminum body like the Model S from which to convert to ev! Its a hell of a car for under $90K and we see loads of them around Southern California they are selling quite briskly. Stopped my VW conversion to look at a silver one parked at the beach this weekend. Wish I had the $$s but the wife is happy with her Leaf which is out of the paint shop this week.

Steve


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## Hollie Maea (Dec 9, 2009)

If I had 90K, I would buy a Model S. It is an amazing car. But if I was going to try to drop 90K on a conversion, I would probably start with an Audi TT Quattro, and drop Bob Simpson's $41K motor/controller combo in there. That would also be an amazing car.


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## Siwastaja (Aug 1, 2012)

Ampster said:


> They use thousands of Panasonic LifeP0 batteries the size of an AA cell.


No they don't. No LiFePO4, no AA size.


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## Ampster (Oct 6, 2012)

Siwastaja said:


> No they don't. No LiFePO4, no AA size.


The traction pack in the RAV4EV is reportedly made up with a Panasonic 18650A, which is about 3/4 inch longer than a AA and about 1/2 inch in diameter. There are about 4500 of these in the traction pack. Panasonic makes millions of these and they in are some laptops and other consumer electronics. I don't know the specific chemistry other than they are some Lithium Ion.


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## dragonsgate (May 19, 2012)

EVDoer said:


> Guys,
> Sorry for the noob question. I did a quick search and didn't find anything.
> 
> *Tesla I think is onto something big*. Their EV car's have ton's of performance and have the range to boot. However I have yet to see one DIY project that comes close? Can we build an EV car that has ton's of power AND can also drive 100+ miles on a single charge for under 30-40k? When I read these forums it's apparent that their is a significant difference between what the market is now offering and what is available to us as DIY group. Is $$$$$ COST of the batteries is the most significant cost differentiator with Tesla cars correct?
> ...


Let’s see if I will sell my business for a Gazzilion dollars then I will have the capital build me a bang up electric car like the Tesla. There is nothing to building a long range fast EV if you have the money. There are a lot of us that could do a fairly nice build on half a Gazzilion and not even bother with a Gubment loan.


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## Bowser330 (Jun 15, 2008)

EVDoer said:


> Guys,
> Sorry for the noob question. I did a quick search and didn't find anything.
> 
> *Tesla I think is onto something big*. Their EV car's have ton's of performance and have the range to boot. However I have yet to see one DIY project that comes close? Can we build an EV car that has ton's of power AND can also drive 100+ miles on a single charge for under 30-40k? When I read these forums it's apparent that their is a significant difference between what the market is now offering and what is available to us as DIY group. Is $$$$$ COST of the batteries is the most significant cost differentiator with Tesla cars correct?
> ...


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tesla_Model_S
Tesla Model S (Base Model)
Price: $70,000 (before government rebates)
Range: ~220miles from 60kwh
Weight: 4647lbs
HP: 302hp
TQ: 317ftlbs
0-60: 5.9 secs

Example DIY Build:
Price: $30,000 + Donor
Motor:Warp11HV motor or two Impulse9's (250lbs)
Controller: WarpDrive(1400), Zilla2KEHV(2000), Soliton1(96 batteries max)
Batteries: 114 Calb CA cells, 100AH, (855lbs), 38kwh 100 mile range @ 380wh/mile.
Others: Charger, Adapter plates & couplings, cabling, battery boxes etc.
Total weight adding on ~1200lbs
Total weight removing ~ 600lbs (Engine, Radiator/Cooling system, Fuel Tank, Full Exhaust)
~600lbs net add-on...

2007 E60 BMW 525i 3,400lbs + 600lbs = 4,000lbs, ~650lbs lighter than Tesla Model S.

If you were to use the extra 650lbs for Calb CA180AH cells total energy would be 68kwh, range goes up to ~150miles


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## John (Sep 11, 2007)

Ampster said:


> Panasonic makes millions of these and they in are some laptops and other consumer electronics. I don't know the specific chemistry other than they are some Lithium Ion.


LiCoO2 I believe.


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## vidmaster89 (Feb 27, 2011)

Where I live:
Bmw M5 - ~220k€ with taxes
Model S (when released, performance version) ~100k€ with taxes 

0-100mph 2 out of 3 times tesla wins (not tested by me). Btw, the legal limit for fastest motorways here is 80mph. I think for what they give you, It's a bargain (heck, I could probably even afford one when it comes here, caus' it takes so damn long ). It's no rival for those 10k Diy-dc conversions if you wanna have your Ev grin for cheap, I admit. But IF Tesla gets the hype in US and more importantly, the sales figures to rise, I think they are onto something BIG here.

Can't imagine anybody recomenning DIY High quality ac conversion for a new'ish car, not anymore.


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## EVEngineeer (Apr 11, 2012)

I personally have been wanting to build a car that has lots of trunk space with the performance of the most expensive model S tesla for the price of $0- $25,000. From everything that I see, it cannot be done. 

Check out this car though http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BYD_e6 They are getting closer to what I am looking for.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Tesla uses a newer variant of the LiCo cells which are called NCA I believe, LiNiCoAl02. Cell level specific energy is around 250 wh/kg compared to our LiFePO4 at 110 Wh/kg, but drops to around 150 Wh/kg at the pack level. As was mentioned they do not use ACP systems any longer and have developed their own liquid cooled integrated motor and controller unit.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

dragonsgate said:


> Let’s see if I will sell my business for a Gazzilion dollars then I will have the capital build me a bang up electric car like the Tesla. There is nothing to building a long range fast EV if you have the money. There are a lot of us that could do a fairly nice build on half a Gazzilion and not even bother with a Gubment loan.


Yet only one of us is actually doing it, and paying off the "gubment" loan tomorrow by the way.


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## Caps18 (Jun 8, 2008)

It is very impressive how they fit so much power into such a small battery box/floor in the Tesla.

I would need 4 of the largest Pelican 1690 cases to have 200 miles of range. (14kWh per box x 4 = 56 kWh) and that would take up the entire bed of a pickup truck just about.


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## Bowser330 (Jun 15, 2008)

EVEngineeer said:


> I personally have been wanting to build a car that has lots of trunk space with the performance of the most expensive model S tesla for the price of $0- $25,000. From everything that I see, it cannot be done.
> 
> Check out this car though http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BYD_e6 They are getting closer to what I am looking for.


It can be done if all you are looking for is trunk space and performance close to the model s performance version for $25,000. What I think you've neglected to mention is you are also looking for decent range as well..

Performance, Range, and Cost, you can only pick two categories...


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## EVEngineeer (Apr 11, 2012)

Bowser330 said:


> It can be done if all you are looking for is trunk space and performance close to the model s performance version for $25,000. What I think you've neglected to mention is you are also looking for decent range as well..
> 
> Performance, Range, and Cost, you can only pick two categories...


I'm sorry when I said like tesla's performance, I meant the entire package, just with let's say a a gently used or brand new 2011+ Honda Civic with 4 doors. It can be any car really, but the problems are..... How can I fit enough batteries into it, without going reducing trunk space? Will it have good performance with so much weight and can it hold the weight? This is why I have been thinking about a pickup truck and modifying it to be aerodynamic. besides fixing some problems, it also creates problems. 

So yes, you are correct that I can only pick 2 categories, but I rlly want the 3. I want 200 miles range+ at 65mph and I want the cost to be low. I want the car to look nice and get normal car space for storage. The "performance" needs to be decent for it to be safe, legal, and stable.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Wait for used Model S's to start hitting the market in a year or so. You can't fit enough batteries in a Honda Civic for 200 miles of range.


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## Kevin Sharpe (Jul 4, 2011)

Hollie Maea said:


> But if I was going to try to drop 90K on a conversion, I would probably start with an Audi TT Quattro, and drop Bob Simpson's $41K motor/controller combo in there. That would also be an amazing car.


what sort of performance do you think that package would deliver?


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## Ziggythewiz (May 16, 2010)

EVEngineeer said:


> So yes, you are correct that I can only pick 2 categories, but I rlly want the 3. I want 200 miles range+ at 65mph and I want the cost to be low.


You can want all you want.

You can't have a $110,000 car for $25,000.

You can have 99% of the utility of such a car for that price though. How often do you really need to drive 200 miles?


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## vidmaster89 (Feb 27, 2011)

Altough I did drive 120-150 miles a_day_ to a nearby mine to work for 4 months with a NA diesel, if you have to move that much in a day you're insane (time badly used). Now the more burning issue:

Nobody want's (or not many want) an EV with a POS battery pack gone bad/capacity dropped below 50% of original. There are reports of Leaf's batteries losing capacity, quickcharging or not, lies or the truth, It's a problem. 24kwh Leaf vs. 60-85 kwh Tesla (not certain if they are ever gonna produce the 40kwh version, prbly no need), which one would you take after 100tkm/70tmiles? When it comes to range, I think I drive 10-25km a day tops, and a suitable EV should be 100km range IMO (Scandinavia), that could rule out the 2.hand Leaf for me.

Im happy to see comments about this subject. Even though DIY is the way to go for many things on earth if you just have the time, you don't really see guys making 3-cylinder turbo engines compareable to the Ford 1.0 Turbo (balance shafts integrated, emissions, consumption) in their garages. The same will stand true for EV:s in the future, whether you like it or not.

DC motors have a place f.ex. in really old conversions, It would be actually cool to convert an older car (60s, 70s) using what was availevable in those early days of EV:s. Museum electric car, which no inspector in this byrocratic hellhole will ever accept


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## z_power (Dec 17, 2011)

I think this horse has been already beaten to death more than 100 times but I need to ask: for how many EV users their electric vehicle is the only one in family? Yes, there are lucky ones but all the rest owns (or has easy access to) fossile-powered vehicle and uses it from time to time - once a week, month, twice a year etc. If you need more than 100 km range at daily routine and especially if you're in Europe then modern diesel or even gas powered car is better suited from both economy and comfort oriented point of view. The whole point is to know your real needs.


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## Hollie Maea (Dec 9, 2009)

Kevin Sharpe said:


> what sort of performance do you think that package would deliver?


360kW AC system fed to AWD in a package that handles like a dream...it would be pretty sweet.


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

Hollie Maea said:


> 360kW AC system fed to AWD in a package that handles like a dream...it would be pretty sweet.


But it wouldn't - all of these conversions of IC cars to electric are the equivalent of somebody saying
"I don't need one of those automobile things - I can just fit a motor in my old pony trap"

The Tesla is the first purpose designed - not adapted - electric car

To the guys who talk about - "it is just moving the emissions upstream" 

It takes 10Kwhours of electricity in the refiner (+ the crude oil) to make a gallon of petrol
Most electric cars can go 30 miles on 10Kwhours!

Which means that the electric car adds ZERO additional electrical requirements - and hence ZERO additional emissions


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Duncan said:


> It takes 10Kwhours of electricity in the refiner (+ the crude oil) to make a gallon of petrol
> Most electric cars can go 30 miles on 10Kwhours!


Sorry but that is a false idea that keeps being perpetuated. There are many ways to prove it but I think the most simple is to take the DOE figures for drilling and refining and apply them. The entire well to tank efficiency for gasoline is around 80%, which includes about 90% drilling and extraction and about 90% refinery efficiency. If we use 33kWh of potential chemical energy in each gallon of gasoline that means about 6.6kWhs of ENERGY has been used to create that gallon, or 20%. Of that energy most of it is heat, with a small percentage of actual electricity, which is usually produced by petroleum byproducts such as NG. So to be clear the 7-10kWh's of electricity per gallon of gasoline claim is complete nonsense and we need to stop spreading it.


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## TexasCotton (Sep 18, 2008)

Ziggythewiz said:


> You can want all you want.
> 
> You can't have a $110,000 car for $25,000.
> 
> You can have 99% of the utility of such a car for that price though. How often do you really need to drive 200 miles?


agree and that alot of battery pack


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## EVEngineeer (Apr 11, 2012)

Ziggythewiz said:


> You can want all you want.
> 
> You can't have a $110,000 car for $25,000.
> 
> You can have 99% of the utility of such a car for that price though. How often do you really need to drive 200 miles?


I don't need 200 miles exactly, but I'd like to know that I can get that. I live in south Florida, if there is a category 5 hurricane I'd like to be able to get out of Florida if possible or just go to North Florida. I do drive about 60 miles highway and 25 miles street regularly. Occasionally I drive 125 miles highway straight and then I would need 10 miles for street. With all that being said, I say 200 miles, because I'd like the room for comfort and to make batteries last longer.


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

JRP3 said:


> Sorry but that is a false idea that keeps being perpetuated. There are many ways to prove it but I think the most simple is to take the DOE figures for drilling and refining and apply them. The entire well to tank efficiency for gasoline is around 80%, which includes about 90% drilling and extraction and about 90% refinery efficiency. If we use 33kWh of potential chemical energy in each gallon of gasoline that means about 6.6kWhs of ENERGY has been used to create that gallon, or 20%. Of that energy most of it is heat, with a small percentage of actual electricity, which is usually produced by petroleum byproducts such as NG. So to be clear the 7-10kWh's of electricity per gallon of gasoline claim is complete nonsense and we need to stop spreading it.


If the process is 80% efficient then to produce 33Kwhrs you would need 41.25Kwhrs input
This is 8.25Kwhrs - not the 10Kwhrs - but close


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

I said about 80%, I think it's slightly better than that, but most importantly, it's not *electricity*, it's *energy*. Huge difference.


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

JRP3 said:


> I said about 80%, I think it's slightly better than that, but most importantly, it's not *electricity*, it's *energy*. Huge difference.


_it's not *electricity*, it's *energy*. Huge difference._
True 

But in the context of a refiner? - not so sure - 
heat energy can and will be recycled - so it is not lost to the process,

Electricity is used in the refining process - and it looks as if similar amounts of electricity used directly in an EV would lead to a similar mileage


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Similar mileage as what? There is less than 1kWh of actual electricity used per gallon of gas, probably less than half a kWh.


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## onegreenev (May 18, 2012)

JRP3 said:


> Similar mileage as what? There is less than 1kWh of actual electricity used per gallon of gas, probably less than half a kWh.


Where did you dig up this information?


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## Caps18 (Jun 8, 2008)

You have all of these environmental organizations and scientists doing research, when all they have to do is come up with this number and make it into an infographic to inform the public about how inefficient this process is...










That doesn't account for the fracking that is done to power the natural gas furnace and boiler, or the pumps to push it through the pipeline, chemical creation, diesel for the trucks, or the plant operations. Or the amount of water that is needed and has to be pumped in.

And then we get to the refinery.

http://www.adventuresinenergy.org/Refining-Oil/Distilling.html
Distilling heats up the oil until it vaporizes.

http://www.adventuresinenergy.org/Refining-Oil/Cracking.html
Cracking it takes energy to produce more gasoline instead of other products.

http://www.adventuresinenergy.org/Refining-Oil/Reforming.html
Reforming/Blending it to get the right Octane level and type, probably more energy.

http://www.adventuresinenergy.org/Refining-Oil/Treating.html
And treating it.

Pumping it through the refinery takes up some energy, as does pushing it to storage tanks.

Then it either gets put back into a pipeline to get sent hundreds or thousands of miles to other distribution hubs or put on a big tanker truck/ship. Then it has to get pumped at the station into your car. Which uses it at let's say 20% efficiency*...

You add up all of that complicated mess and you come up with your answer to how much energy it takes. But keep in mind that it is missing the environmental damage, political implications, and supporting the lavish lifestyles of the oil executives and their kids.

(*my Saturn would go 33mpg, and if there is 33kWh of energy in that 1 gallon, it takes 1,000 Wh to go 1 mile. An electric car could go about 5 times that distance on 1,000 Wh.)


And all that natural gas that it takes to heat up something could have been used to generate energy at a power plant. Or you could put solar panels on a roof or a wind turbine in the backyard and have this entire energy production process happen right in your own backyard over a few feet of copper wire to charge an electric car.

The problem is that complicated mess crates a lot of income for voters, bribes for congressmen/climate deniers, and taxes for politicians... The 'no-tax' tea party should love the fact that I don't have to pay taxes on solar power I produce to save money on gasoline.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

onegreenev said:


> Where did you dig up this information?


3,277,335,000 gallons of gas produced in a year divided by 46,195,000,000 kWh's of electricity used by refineries = .071 kWh per gallon.
I took the daily gas production here http://www.eia.gov/oog/info/twip/twip_gasoline.html#production 
multiplied by 365 days and divided by 2011 electricity used by refineries here http://www.eia.gov/dnav/pet/PET_PNP_CAPFUEL_DCU_NUS_A.htm

Of course this is a crude calculation because refineries don't produce only gasoline, so the number per gallon would be even lower, maybe half that.
http://www.eia.gov/oog/info/twip/twip_gasoline.html#production


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## onegreenev (May 18, 2012)

Well what I see is purchased electricity. Not what they produce themselves and we know refineries have private electric plants. Sorry but I really don't trust Government numbers.


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## Siwastaja (Aug 1, 2012)

Yes and refinement is only a small part of the process. Further, AFAIK they use a lot of energy not in the form of electricity (burning natural gas mostly) in the process, which otherwise could be used to produce electricity.

Having had a glimpse at several calculations, it always seems to boil down to about similar amount of energy if converted to electricity is used in extracting and refining gasoline, compared to what EV's run with. Some say 0.5x, some say 2x. Even if it was below 0.5x, it's not meaningless but still it is almost always forgotten in the "big picture".

The end product, gasoline car, has efficiency so poor that even small inefficiencies in the beginning of the chain end up being multiplied. OTOH, if the final efficiency is good, as in an EV, those small inefficiencies (partly the same!) in the process are not so critical. It is funny how people always miss this.


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## Caps18 (Jun 8, 2008)

JRP3 said:


> 3,277,335,000 gallons of gas produced in a year divided by 46,195,000,000 kWh's of electricity used by refineries = .071 kWh per gallon.


You might want to check your numbers again, because 46,195,000,000 kWh / 3,277,335,000 gallons = 14.05 kWh/gallon


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## Caps18 (Jun 8, 2008)

It also turns out that ~14 kWh is how much power my solar panels can make in one Sunny day +/- 1 month away from June 21. It is also how much battery power I plan for my EV (144V @ 100 Ah = 14,400 Wh or 14.4 kWh)


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## Caps18 (Jun 8, 2008)

Now, I'm not sure how you can break down how much energy the refinery used total and what it takes to get the gasoline out compared with other products. Plus, they did use this energy one way or another, and it is probably natural gas or coal power.



















It still is a lot of energy, and I would guess that 10kWh/gal might not be too far off for the entire well-car tank process.


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## onegreenev (May 18, 2012)

I can produce 46 to 48kWh per day in the summer and I don't have tracking on my panels. Got more yet to install. Waiting to do our roof first. That will be expensive. Bummer but yet good.


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## onegreenev (May 18, 2012)

43.2kWh yesterday was produced on my system.


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## onegreenev (May 18, 2012)

Here is my Graph of the past 24 hours.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

onegreenev said:


> Well what I see is purchased electricity. Not what they produce themselves and we know refineries have private electric plants. Sorry but I really don't trust Government numbers.


"Purchased" electricity includes the electricity they produce from petroleum byproducts. They set up power plants that also sell excess power to the grid and "buy" back what they need. Refinery generating plants produce more electricity than they need. I don't care if you don't trust government numbers, unless you have a better source that's what we have to use.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Caps18 said:


> You might want to check your numbers again, because 46,195,000,000 kWh / 3,277,335,000 gallons = 14.05 kWh/gallon


Yup I screwed up the math, and the base figures I used can't be right because we know that it can't be 14.05 either, since that would mean the equivalent of almost half the energy in a gallon of gas was used as electricity at the refinery to create it, which is no where near true.
If the entire well to tank efficiency is around 80% and most of the 20% loss is from operations fuels and refinery heating only a small percentage of that loss can be electricity.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

OK, did some more checking here's what I get.
Total refinery production for 2012 is 4,413,228,000 barrels of oil, x 44 gallons of oil per barrel, equals 194,182,032,000 gallons of all products.
http://www.eia.gov/dnav/pet/pet_pnp_refp2_dc_nus_mbbl_a.htm
Total refinery electricity usage is 46,195,000,000 kWh, divided by 194,182,032,000 gallons of refinery products gives us .238 kWh per gallon of product. Certainly some petroleum products take more or less electricity in refining but I'm not going to try and break it down further than that as I think it gives a pretty good idea of electricity used per gallon of gas. Please check my math of course.


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## Kevin Sharpe (Jul 4, 2011)

Hollie Maea said:


> 360kW AC system fed to AWD in a package that handles like a dream...it would be pretty sweet.


sounds great... what 0-60 would 360kW deliver?


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## vidmaster89 (Feb 27, 2011)

Kevin Sharpe said:


> sounds great... what 0-60 would 360kW deliver?


A ~2ton Tesla S performance 310kw (without gear change) is a little over 4 sec with 0-60, so something between 4-5s depending on your vehicles final weight/battery discharge ability. That's too fast by any "normal people" standards, hold on to your drivers license if used as a DD!  and when producing 310kw, the batteries are only discharged at 3,5C, which is no problem even for Winston/TS, let alone Panasonic/A123(not the factory rejects )/ other higher quality cells.


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## onegreenev (May 18, 2012)

Then we need to add in all the rest of the energy used by these products to make and refine all that oil. 




Liquefied Petroleum Gases
2,656	2,663	2,930	2,866	2,404	1,291	1986-2011
Distillate Fuel Oil
434	420	472	339	440	483	1986-2011
Residual Fuel Oil
2,018	1,844	1,390	1,249	980	759	1986-2011
Still Gas
249,358	247,106	237,161	220,191	219,890	217,716	1986-2011
Petroleum Coke
90,492	88,015	81,811	82,516	82,971	84,053	1986-2011
Marketable Petroleum Coke
458	648	364	859	897	910	1986-2011
Catalyst Petroleum Coke
90,034	87,367	81,447	81,657	82,074	83,143	1986-2011
Other Petroleum Products
6,327	3,704	3,840	2,918	2,358	2,305	1986-2011
Natural Gas (Million Cubic Feet)
697,593	667,986	710,500	713,532	756,062	791,753	1985-2011
Coal (Thousand Short Tons)
34	39	43	34	29	31	1985-2011
Purchased Electricity (Million Kilowatthours)
39,353	41,829	42,682	43,019	46,227	46,195	1985-2011
Purchased Steam (Million Pounds)
70,769	99,022	98,769	98,671	128,981	112,610	1985-2011


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## Hollie Maea (Dec 9, 2009)

Duncan said:


> But it wouldn't - all of these conversions of IC cars to electric are the equivalent of somebody saying
> "I don't need one of those automobile things - I can just fit a motor in my old pony trap"


Huh? I'm not sure what you are getting at here. My original post pointed out that I think the Tesla is an amazing car--maybe the best ever made--but that if I were going to do a similarly priced conversion this is what I would do.

If you think that in general EV conversions are stupid, you are kind of on the wrong website, since that is the whole purpose of this site.

Or am I misunderstanding you?


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## ElektrikCar (May 9, 2013)

There are several tricks to do to have our conversion gets long distance as the OEM electric vehicles:

- Reduce the weight of the donor car considerably.
That means obviously removing engine, fuel system and the most important thing is the transmission system. Try to connect the motor to the differential directly (for rear drive) or use reduction gearbox (for RWD or FWD). Select a correct gear ratio for speed, torque and motor maximum rpm.

All other non electric drive supporting system should also be removed.

Replace various closures with glass fiber or carbon fiber. Use the old closure panels to make your negative mould.

- Use enough battery capacity for your need. Use large battery cells (prismatic cells) instead of small cylindrical cells. Large battery cells reduce the amount of BMS or electronic system and even cooling system for your battery pack. These reduction means more mileages.

- Play around with your battery nominal and maximum charging capacity. Be careful to follow the manufacturer battery capacity limits.

Our Tucuxi ElektrikCar sports car can get of more than 156.2 miles with only less than 51 Kwh battery capacity. This is running on rain, at night with the AC was on.

Please check it out on :
- http://www.youtube.com/channel/UCXOmHvnfnJVMQ9at5H7yP2Q?feature=guide

or 

- http://www.youtube.com/channel/UCONRealoLp6nG50n6sVvWLQ


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

onegreenev said:


> Then we need to add in all the rest of the energy used by these products to make and refine all that oil.


That is already done to achieve the 6.6kWh of *energy* number that is used per gallon of gasoline, as already posted earlier in the thread. The point I'm making is that pretending that *energy* is all *electricity* is false, with the electricity component being much lower as I've shown. The bottom line is the oft repeated 7-10 kWh of *electricity* used per gallon of gasoline figure is completely wrong. If you try to use that figure as an argument with someone who actually knows their stuff you'll lose the argument.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

ElektrikCar said:


> Our Tucuxi ElektrikCar sports car can get of more than 156.2 miles with only less than 51 Kwh battery capacity. This is running on rain, at night with the AC was on. http://www.youtube.com/channel/UCONRealoLp6nG50n6sVvWLQ


Not bad, that's around 326 wh/mi, Tesla Model S sedan gets 321 wh/mi. EPA test, the Tesla Roadster sports car gets 220 wh/mi.


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

Hollie Maea said:


> Huh? I'm not sure what you are getting at here. My original post pointed out that I think the Tesla is an amazing car--maybe the best ever made--but that if I were going to do a similarly priced conversion this is what I would do.
> 
> If you think that in general EV conversions are stupid, you are kind of on the wrong website, since that is the whole purpose of this site.
> 
> Or am I misunderstanding you?


Hi Hollie
Yes you misunderstand

EV conversions are OK
BUT they are not as good as a clean sheet design like the Tesla

Any conversion (and I include things like my own scratch built roadster) uses parts designed around an IC engine

This will inevitably result in a poorer compromise - like adding a motor to a carriage compared to a car

Still better than having a horse!


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## IamIan (Mar 29, 2009)

JRP3 said:


> "Purchased" electricity includes the electricity they produce from petroleum byproducts.


not AFAIK.

Purchased is the extra amount beyond what they generated themselves... It varies ... but it's around another 25% electricity added on top of what was purchased.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

I'd like to see more recent data. As I understand it they produce an excess of power. However even if you are correct it doesn't change the numbers much, it's still very little electricity used per gallon.


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## Kevin Sharpe (Jul 4, 2011)

vidmaster89 said:


> the batteries are only discharged at 3,5C


very interesting, thanks... I see several people quoting 10C for 30 seconds on the CALB CA series... so is ~3 seconds 0-60 possible with the 360kW setup do you think?


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## Kevin Sharpe (Jul 4, 2011)

Duncan said:


> EV conversions are OK
> BUT they are not as good as a clean sheet design like the Tesla
> 
> Any conversion (and I include things like my own scratch built roadster) uses parts designed around an IC engine
> ...


Sorry Duncan but I disagree. my Tesla Roadster is a 'conversion' and yet it's a fantastic car to drive... indeed, for my next car I want more of everything and another conversion can deliver this whereas a production car can't easily today. FYI I don't want a huge 'family' car like the Model S


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## Kevin Sharpe (Jul 4, 2011)

any possibility the mods can split out the two topics on this thread?


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## vidmaster89 (Feb 27, 2011)

Kevin Sharpe said:


> very interesting, thanks... I see several people quoting 10C for 30 seconds on the CALB CA series... so is ~3 seconds 0-60 possible with the 360kW setup do you think?


What I'm saying is that the high quality cells in a Tesla will last a quite a long time, because they are not driven too hard even when the car is going flat out.. I don't think 3 seconds is possible, physics, grip, and other factors come to the equasion by then, and you start to realise why 3 sec 0-60 is supercar acceleration (and money) or super light weight (not possible/sensible for any other than drag EV:s 

This thread is for TESLA, and last time that i checked Tesla is not a Gas powered car, nor will it ever be. Could you stop your oil related war here and go under some other topic, thank you.


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## IamIan (Mar 29, 2009)

JRP3 said:


> I'd like to see more recent data. As I understand it they produce an excess of power. However even if you are correct it doesn't change the numbers much, it's still very little electricity used per gallon.


Sorry don't have more recent data.
Agreed about the scale of electricity per gallon of product.

- - - - - - 

More on Point.

DIY works because the person who is DIYing doesn't pay for their labor ... or for the R&D , that they did previously for this hobby of theirs ... etc.

Tesla and other Retailers , don't have the luxury of volunteer hours , days, weeks, years ... for R&D ... for Design ... for testing ... refinement ... production ... etc.

So if you already enjoy that kind of Hobby ... designing electric motors , or controllers , or chargers, or batteries, or building car bodies, etc ... than , yes you can benefit from your hobby ... just like the Electrician can personally benefit from hobbies around his house that take advantage of what he learned and knows from the job ... but it's a niche.

One of the main strengths I see of Tesla's approach is that they leverage a much larger industry than themselves ... Battery powered devices are everywhere ... it is a huge industry ... with lots of R&D from lots of different directions.

Although ... The Tesla did not come up with the idea ... they bought , produced, refined, and brought to market the proof of concept that AC propulsion already proved with the T-Zero ... which was built as a hand built DIY proof of concept by a small company , years before the roadster... in 2003 they used 6,800 cells had a 300 mile range and did 0-60 in 3.6 sec.


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

Kevin Sharpe said:


> Sorry Duncan but I disagree. my Tesla Roadster is a 'conversion' and yet it's a fantastic car to drive... indeed, for my next car I want more of everything and another conversion can deliver this whereas a production car can't easily today. FYI I don't want a huge 'family' car like the Model S


The Roadster was a conversion - an even better Roadster is hiding behind it!

The S is not BETTER than the Roadster because it is a different car - a huge family car

If you want a "different" car then a "conversion" is better than nothing

BUT a ground up car like the S will be better than any conversion at doing what it is designed to do

My Roadster (Duncan's Dubious Device) is better than Tesla's Roadster for what it was designed to do 
Let me have fun on the cheap!


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

I disagree somewhat. The Model S is special because of it's huge battery pack that was designed to go under the floor. This is hard if not impossible to do in a conversion. However if you don't need that much range you certainly could place a pack under the floor of some vehicles, look at the RAV4EV from Toyota/Tesla. What would be different about that vehicle if they had built it from the ground up as an EV?


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## vidmaster89 (Feb 27, 2011)

JRP3 said:


> I disagree somewhat. The Model S is special because of it's huge battery pack that was designed to go under the floor. This is hard if not impossible to do in a conversion. However if you don't need that much range you certainly could place a pack under the floor of some vehicles, look at the RAV4EV from Toyota/Tesla. What would be different about that vehicle if they had built it from the ground up as an EV?


The battery pack weighs a lot, but being at the best possible place, some people say The S behaves like a car half of its weight (or that's what i've read, sorry about the lack of first hand experience ). 

Here's something to think about: If I was to make a conversion that has even one of the Tesla specs, where would I get an AC motor and a controller at 300kw+ (myself not being OEM)? Chinese made LiFePo battery pack would set me back only 30 000€ / 85kwh, but I woulnd't know where to fit it, let alone know how to develope a BMS or a charger for it. I could convert an e65 7-series bmw to be at a comfort level equal to Tesla, the basic shell would set me back 20 000€, which woudn't go down that much by selling of the excess, because these cars are notorious for huge service bills and thus not so popular here. The last component would be the Hard- and software to make everything work together. I'm not an EE, but even I know developing such thing for one car to use equires time/money. A lot. I woulnd't know how to make something as awesome as model S, and that in my mind, along with the other facts, makes it the first true EV, not just an industrialized conversion. When mass production takes over the EV business, I think we'll begin to see develompement that benefits both DIYers and the normal people.

Now we just have to wait for tesla to create a hatchback/smaller sedan/estate model (sorry, people here (including me) just love them as DD's) for us European people.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

You sort of missed my entire point. OEM's do conversions as well and have access to all the high end components, the point being discussed is does a car have to be designed as an EV from the ground up to be a successful EV. I think my RAV4 example proves it does not. The S had to be designed from the ground up as an EV because of the huge battery pack, vehicles using smaller packs do not necessarily have that same requirement. If battery density progresses enough in the future then there will be even less of a need for a dedicated EV platform since it will be much easier to fit a large kWh pack into a vehicle without adding a lot of weight and taking up a large volume of space.


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## vidmaster89 (Feb 27, 2011)

JRP3 said:


> You sort of missed my entire point. OEM's do conversions as well and have access to all the high end components, the point being discussed is does a car have to be designed as an EV from the ground up to be a successful EV. I think my RAV4 example proves it does not. The S had to be designed from the ground up as an EV because of the huge battery pack, vehicles using smaller packs do not necessarily have that same requirement. If battery density progresses enough in the future then there will be even less of a need for a dedicated EV platform since it will be much easier to fit a large kWh pack into a vehicle without adding a lot of weight and taking up a large volume of space.


I'm sorry, did the research now about rav4, and the pack really fits under the car, altough in that version (not final production) you can see the pack being the lowest part of the car  So for a normal car with normal ground clearance (not mini suv), pack under -configuration is likely hard to do, pack dividing on the other hand would be a viable option.

You're right about the battery pack, and that being the reason they designed S from the ground up. I just like it as a fresh new approach for car structure design, and thus would like to see how it would work in a Leaf sized RWD car, that's aimed to the normal people. I understand it's not necessary, but in the future when EV's become more mainstream, there will more likely be a dedicated platform for Electric versions. Those would be used as a base for different types of cars (like the Volkswagen Audi group could pull this of). I just like to think they would be somehow different to the ones being availeable today because of the lack of ice related things..

I think people want huge battery packs now because of range anxiety, that they get before ever even owning an EV. I'm not such a strong believer in battery technology advancing, sure it happens all the time, but it's a slow slow process, and so much fun can be had with modern LiFe batteries already. When people understand where 50kwh will take you, that will move things forward.


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## ElektrikCar (May 9, 2013)

JRP3 said:


> Not bad, that's around 326 wh/mi, Tesla Model S sedan gets 321 wh/mi. EPA test, the Tesla Roadster sports car gets 220 wh/mi.


Thanks JRP3. This mileage achieved under rainy day and night with AC was on continuously. Besides, the car was larger than Tesla Roadster (Lotus Elise). Tucuxi dimensions are in the same range as Ferraris.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

What's your Wh/mi on a nice day without A/C? The car looks as if it should have good aerodynamics.


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## onegreenev (May 18, 2012)

JRP3 said:


> Not bad, that's around 326 wh/mi, Tesla Model S sedan gets 321 wh/mi. EPA test, the Tesla Roadster sports car gets 220 wh/mi.


My Leaf consistently gets 263 to 250 kw per mile. Or routinely gets 3.8 to 4 miles per kWh. Not too shabby. Still good after 2 years. I don't expect that to change. Only a loss of about 3 miles per charge. Maybe. The gal at work that has been driving her Leaf has noticed no change in distance and she commutes further than I do. 

Pete


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## ElektrikCar (May 9, 2013)

JRP3 said:


> What's your Wh/mi on a nice day without A/C? The car looks as if it should have good aerodynamics.


Sorry JRP3. Need to build the next car to know it. This car was crashed (or crash tested) on a downhill cliff. The guy who did it didn't know on how to go downhill on a mountain using engine (ac motor) braking. No one got injured and the battery didn't get crushed. The car frame performed well as required during the crash.

Danet
http://www.elektrikcar.com
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCXOmHvnfnJVMQ9at5H7yP2Q?feature=guide
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCONRealoLp6nG50n6sVvWLQ


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## ElektrikCar (May 9, 2013)

onegreenev said:


> My Leaf consistently gets 263 to 250 kw per mile. Or routinely gets 3.8 to 4 miles per kWh. Not too shabby. Still good after 2 years. I don't expect that to change. Only a loss of about 3 miles per charge. Maybe. The gal at work that has been driving her Leaf has noticed no change in distance and she commutes further than I do.
> 
> Pete


That was good Pete. However, Tesla S model and our Tucuxi are in different segment class compared with Leaf or Tesla roadster. Leaf and Tesla roadster are considered small cars while our Tucuxi has 4413mm length and 1995mm width. Tuxuci weighs around 3200lbs and is a sports car (0-60mph in less than 5 sec).

Smaller cars normally require less energy to reach the same distance.

Regards,
danet

http://www.elektrikcar.com
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCXOmHvnfnJVMQ9at5H7yP2Q?feature=guide
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCONRealoLp6nG50n6sVvWLQ


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## onegreenev (May 18, 2012)

Well the Leaf is not really that small and is in the same weight class. But yours does look way cooler and I do like the range you guys claim. So what type of LiFePO4 cells are used? How roomy? I saw the pics in the youtube videos and the interior looks great but how roomy and how well do you think it would be on a daily commute? Really, many sports cars are not the best for daily commutes. The Leaf and S are just fine. I have been in an S and it just plain rocks. Never been in a nicer vehicle in my life. Handles like its on rails. Im interested in the drive train and how the pack is laid out. Chassis? You know, all that sort of stuff. Don't hold back now. 

Pete 

Nissan Leaf: 3,354 lb


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## ElektrikCar (May 9, 2013)

onegreenev said:


> Well the Leaf is not really that small and is in the same weight class. But yours does look way cooler and I do like the range you guys claim. So what type of LiFePO4 cells are used? How roomy? I saw the pics in the youtube videos and the interior looks great but how roomy and how well do you think it would be on a daily commute? Really, many sports cars are not the best for daily commutes. The Leaf and S are just fine. I have been in an S and it just plain rocks. Never been in a nicer vehicle in my life. Handles like its on rails. Im interested in the drive train and how the pack is laid out. Chassis? You know, all that sort of stuff. Don't hold back now.
> 
> Pete
> 
> Nissan Leaf: 3,354 lb


Hello Pete,

Thanks for your comments. Your Nissan Leaf MPG looks to be veeery good. Would you mind telling me on how you drive it to get such 260wh/mile mpg? Was it run during the day with no other electronics on? Or, did you accelerate smoothly and then coasting (gliding to slow down)?

We tested Tucuxi under aggressive driving cycles. Accelerate and braking like crazy (we almost hit our police car escort) on the highway with every electronics were on (including AC, GPS, radios, headlights and wipers). Then, we followed a highway traffic jam during a rush hour night, with every electronics were on as well. We went in to the stop and go traffic with the regen braking was on all the time for 3.5 hours nonstop (total dirve of more than 4 hours).

We hadn't tested the car under the sunny and nice day driving cycling when the car was crashed into the side of a mountain cliff. What a bummer, even though the passengers and batteries survived. It became a bruhaha on national news for almost 2-3 months (see Indonesian Tucuxi mobil listrik). We were not responsible for the crash since the car was taken away from us (by the investor and their cronies) and being torn down/tweaked around (including the brakes) before the mountain range driving test. We were not allowed to approach the car two days after Tucuxi was delivered to the investor.

It was a sad chapter of our project. A nasty little coup concocted behind our back. But, heiy, life goes on. We are back here again at home in Michigan. We are building more and more EVs and will sell them here at home First. We are marketing the Tucuxi and building it's sister second generation EVs here.

Anyway, to answer your questions, Tucuxi was designed from ground-up as an electric vehicle. It's architecture is completely different from conventional ICE cars. The engine (or motor) is mid engine connected directly into the rear diff. 

The body chassis structure was derived from NASCAR race cars or classic sports cars body architecture. It is called space frame architecture (similar to Audi R8). 

We are using high strength stainless steel (not aluminum) with body skins are made of aramid carbon fiber. That was why when the car was crashed, the passengers were saved unscathed (on a crash of more than 45 mph on an almost vertical cliff). The batteries were not crushed as no explosion was started. The cars crumpled as it should be with the panoramic glass roof was shattered to protect passengers.

By the way, thanks for your comments on interior. The interior still should be much better than that. We are improving it in the next car. This car was designed for 2 or 4 passengers. For the 2 passenger type, the car could be a serious racer with the max speed to be more than 240mph. For the 4 passenger type, the car can be a commuter or a daily transport vehicle with its capability to be a sports car if needed. The interior was roomy with plenty of leg room for front passengers. The rear passengers can be a bit claustrophobic (it's a sports car ). All interior materials are made of aramid carbon fiber and leather skin/suede. Tucuxi also has the golf-bag tested trunk room.

The batteries are made by Thundersky. It is configured on the front, middle and rear section of the car. These are the very best of EV batteries right now period. It is the latest LiFePO4. The car was designed to have a range of 200-300 miles on a single charge. I know the owner who design and run the company (if you need my help to order new batteries). We developed the electronic system to manage all of the main propulsion-accessories linked up.

Anyway, sorry for spilling the beans in this forum. I am a real believer that the electric vehicle revolution is not started by the big corporations building EVs but by us EV enthusiasts, EV conversionists, EV builders who would like to have this clean, reliable and future technology as the main driver for our cars. It was like during the 90's when all of the techies tinkering around to build websites to do tons of stuff and those guys in a small startup called google (using credit cards) to build search engines.

Best Regards,
danet

http://www.elektrikcar.com
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCXO...?feature=guide
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCON...p6nG50n6sVvWLQ


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Here's the thread on the Tucuxi in case anyone missed it:
http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showthread.php?t=85698


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