# Ac or dc for fiero conversion ?



## GigawattsCanada (Jan 16, 2019)

I'm going to start converting a Fiero GT to electric and I'm looking for people that have done a conversion like this to help me choose a good motor. I want a performance car and can't decide if I want to use a big 11 inch DC motor with the brushes advanced or a hpevs AC50 motor mounted to the stock manual transmission. I will be building a ac or dc Paul and Sabrina controller to use with this car. Any motor suggestions ?


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## jbman (Oct 26, 2017)

GigawattsCanada said:


> I'm going to start a conversion to a Fiero GT and I'm looking for people that have done a conversion like this to help me choose a good motor. I want a performance car and can't decide if I want to use a big 11 inch DC motor with the brushed advanced or a hpevs AC50 motor mounted to the stock manual transmission. I will be building a ac or dc Paul and Sabrina controller to use with this car. Any motor suggestions ?


I am running a Kostov 11 in my MG Midget. With no transmission, it will light up the tires and billow huge clouds of smoke on a warm day. I am also using the P&S controller. Building my entire car, including redoing the interior, batteries, motor, controller, etc. cost about as much as just the AC50 kits. In my opinion, the AC50 and the rest of the AC EV conversion motors are weak and overpriced. I'm seeing $2,000-$4,000 for various offerings with the AC50. The AC50 is only good for 70ish horsepower according to what I'm finding. There are really good OEM motors out there that can be had for a fraction of the price with much greater performance if you want AC. I'm using a Leaf motor in my current build. They're not plug and play like the AC50 is, but the performance is worth the extra effort if you're on any real budget.

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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

GigawattsCanada said:


> I'm going to start a conversion to a Fiero GT and I'm looking for people that have done a conversion like this to help me choose a good motor. I want a performance car and can't decide if I want to use a big 11 inch DC motor with the brushes advanced or a hpevs AC50 motor mounted to the stock manual transmission.


As jbman suggested, an AC-50 seems inadequate for a "performance car" of the weight of a converted Fiero. Someone used an AC-50 for a conversion and later tried to sell the car, leading to a Jalopnik article. I haven't seen the video, but apparently the performance was as underwhelming as anyone would expect from the low power.

Is there a reason for considering these two specific motors, and not a motor (and transaxle) salvaged from a production EV? I understand the appeal of an old DC motor (low motor cost and low controller complexity), but an AC-50 with suitable controller is close to US$5K at retail (Can EV is apparently the Canadian distributor for HPEVS, but doesn't list prices).


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## GigawattsCanada (Jan 16, 2019)

Jbman what's the top speed with the kostov 11 ?


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## jbman (Oct 26, 2017)

GigawattsCanada said:


> Jbman what's the top speed with the kostov 11 ?


Theoretically it's about 99mph in my car. I haven't tried going beyond highway speeds.

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## GigawattsCanada (Jan 16, 2019)

Im considering these types of motors because it is way easier to mount them to my transmission and in my car. I don't want to hack the car apart if I don't have to. Im going to use my stock transmission.


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## GigawattsCanada (Jan 16, 2019)

jbman said:


> GigawattsCanada said:
> 
> 
> > Jbman what's the top speed with the kostov 11 ?
> ...


What voltage and amps are you running with the kostov ?


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## GigawattsCanada (Jan 16, 2019)

I just got a nice big 12"x16" 48v DC series wound motor that weighs 210 pounds for cheap. It's a big beast and looks to be in good shape. I'm going to take it apart reinsulate the coils and advance the brushes about 8 degrees.

You guys think it will work decent ? I'm planning to run it around 144v.


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## jbman (Oct 26, 2017)

GigawattsCanada said:


> What voltage and amps are you running with the kostov ?


200 volts, 1000 amps peak.

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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

GigawattsCanada said:


> Im considering these types of motors because it is way easier to mount them to my transmission and in my car. I don't want to hack the car apart if I don't have to. Im going to use my stock transmission.


That makes sense... but why are you determined to use the stock transmission? If you use a motor from a modern EV, you can use the transaxle which comes with it as well. I'm not saying that's trivial (you need to deal with mounting the motor-transaxle unit, and making halfshafts work with both the transaxle and the hubs), but it avoids any need to mate a motor to an unrelated transmission. Unlike many conversions (of front-engine rear-drive vehicles), you are starting with a car designed to work with a transverse powertrain.


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## GigawattsCanada (Jan 16, 2019)

brian_ said:


> GigawattsCanada said:
> 
> 
> > Im considering these types of motors because it is way easier to mount them to my transmission and in my car. I don't want to hack the car apart if I don't have to. Im going to use my stock transmission.
> ...


That just proves my point in how much more work is involved using a power train from a modern ev. I do not want to go that route, the car I'm using has a Muncie 5 speed and I want to keep the 5 speed manual.


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## GigawattsCanada (Jan 16, 2019)

Mounting a electric motor to the 5 speed manual is a lot easier and I like a manual transission.


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## jbman (Oct 26, 2017)

GigawattsCanada said:


> Mounting a electric motor to the 5 speed manual is a lot easier and I like a manual transission.


Just make sure your motor has a B-face bolt pattern and get a CanEV adapter kit, then.

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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

jbman said:


> Just make sure your motor has a B-face bolt pattern and get a CanEV adapter kit, then.


That will work... with a DC motor, because the AC-50 won't be powerful enough. The problem then becomes stuffing in enough battery.


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## jbman (Oct 26, 2017)

brian_ said:


> That will work... with a DC motor, because the AC-50 won't be powerful enough. The problem then becomes stuffing in enough battery.


That's what I meant. He already mentioned he has a 200+ lb series DC motor.

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## GigawattsCanada (Jan 16, 2019)

Yes I found a big DC series wound motor today. It's a Clark 2774337 GE motor. 65 comm bars, 4 big brushes, series wound. Has a good mounting face too.


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## GigawattsCanada (Jan 16, 2019)

I'm not planning on going more than 50 kms a trip. I'm going with LifePO4 144v 100 ah battery pack so it won't weight to much.


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## GE11 (Oct 24, 2011)

GigawattsCanada said:


> Yes I found a big DC series wound motor today. It's a Clark 2774337 GE motor. 65 comm bars, 4 big brushes, series wound. Has a good mounting face too.


I want to see pictures of this big ole thang!


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## GigawattsCanada (Jan 16, 2019)

GE11 said:


> GigawattsCanada said:
> 
> 
> > Yes I found a big DC series wound motor today. It's a Clark 2774337 GE motor. 65 comm bars, 4 big brushes, series wound. Has a good mounting face too.
> ...


If you search Clark 2774337 on Google it will show you some pics of a motor on ebay that's the same motor. 

I don't know how to post pics on here yet.lol


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## DrGee (Aug 22, 2018)

GigawattsCanada said:


> GE11 said:
> 
> 
> > GigawattsCanada said:
> ...


Looks nice on Ebay Gigawatts.. Does your motor show the nominal power output? It's blank on the one on ebay.


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## eldonbearden (Feb 25, 2019)

Good luck with your Fiero project. I see the same questions I was asking myself 2 years ago.
First, the 11 inch Warp motor will NOT fit in the Fiero engine cradle. The motor diameter is too large and will interfere with the longer trans-axle shaft.
The largest electric motor diameter will be 9 inches for your Fiero. 
I would consider the HPEVS.com AC-51 motor (144 volt) which has an 8 inch diameter. The AC motor gives you regenerative braking, a big plus for EV's.
One of the best Fiero conversion websites is http://www.roboticmayhem.com/fiero-ev
Regards


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

I would be VERY surprises if an 11 inch motor was too large 

That is only 5.5 inches from the centerline and every petrol engine I have used has been fatter than that

Length wise is more likely to give problems 
And an 8 inch motor will be completely gutless in something like that


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## eldonbearden (Feb 25, 2019)

Hello Duncan. Here are the measurements I took for my 1985 Fiero:
When measuring from the Fiero transmission shaft centerline to the trans-axle point of contact (rub), I only have 5.437 inches of clearance. 
The case diameter for the Warp 11 is 11.45 inches, according to the go-ev.com website. I took this measurement, divided by 2 equals 5.725 inches.
So the interference of the motor casing to the trans-axle would be about 1/4 inch. Text me at 862-777-4145 and I will reply with photos.
In later years (after June 1986), V6 Fieros came with Getrag transmissions, which may have different dimensions than those stated above. Perhaps you could take a side grinder and remove some metal from the 11 in Warp casing to give you a little clearance. But I would check with George at [email protected] before you doing this, to see if your motor purchase is still in warranty.
Yes, 8 inch motors such as the AC50, running with a 500 amp controller are "gutless" and will turn your 3,000 lb Fiero into a "grocery getter", at best.
The good folks at Zilla have plenty to say about this. If you install a Warp 9 in a Fiero with a 144 volt system, the amount of torque & hp is "Ok". See http://www.roboticmayhem.com/fiero-ev as an example. 
But for the performance minded folks, Zilla recommends a minimum 200 volt system, or higher, depending on how much money you want to spend.
I thought this was good advice. So you can do what I did, and buy a dual AC35X2 motor from HPEVS.com, which allows you to go up to 288 volts for maximum hp. Or you can choose a 1,326 amp system for maximum torque, which probably means about 6 sec for zero to 60 mph in your 3,000 lb Fiero. The motor performance data can be found at www.hpevs.com/Site/images/torque-curves/AC-35x2/144
The AC35X2 motor & 2 Curtis controllers will cost $8,000 and the 100ah Li-ion batteries will cost another $14,000 for the 288 volt system.
Regarding the AC51 motor from HPEVS.com, this will give you a 144 volt system at half the cost of the AC35X2 system. According to Zilla, this choice is "Ok".
Finally, if your budget is unlimited, then check out www.bloodshedmotors.com
Matt can put his "racing technology" into your Fiero, either an AC or DC motor with racing style batteries. Plan on spending $150k with them, plus the cost of your donor car. But you will have a Fiero a lot faster than mine......
Regards


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## eldonbearden (Feb 25, 2019)

Good luck with your Fiero project. I see the same questions I was asking myself 2 years ago.
First, let me say the 11 inch Warp motor did NOT fit in my 1985 Fiero engine cradle. The motor diameter is was too large and the casing interferes with the longer trans-axle shaft. 
Later model years (after June 1986), V6 Fieros used a different transmission, so the dimensions / geometry may be different, allowing a larger motor to fit in the Fiero engine cradle.


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

eldonbearden said:


> Good luck with your Fiero project. I see the same questions I was asking myself 2 years ago.
> First, let me say the 11 inch Warp motor did NOT fit in my 1985 Fiero engine cradle. The motor diameter is was too large and the casing interferes with the longer trans-axle shaft.
> Later model years (after June 1986), V6 Fieros used a different transmission, so the dimensions / geometry may be different, allowing a larger motor to fit in the Fiero engine cradle.


Are you telling me that the IC engine in the Fiero has a flywheel less than 11 inches in diameter?


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

eldonbearden said:


> First, let me say the 11 inch Warp motor did NOT fit in my 1985 Fiero engine cradle. The motor diameter is was too large and the casing interferes with the longer trans-axle shaft.
> Later model years (after June 1986), V6 Fieros used a different transmission, so the dimensions / geometry may be different, allowing a larger motor to fit in the Fiero engine cradle.





Duncan said:


> I would be VERY surprises if an 11 inch motor was too large
> 
> That is only 5.5 inches from the centerline and every petrol engine I have used has been fatter than that...





Duncan said:


> Are you telling me that the IC engine in the Fiero has a flywheel less than 11 inches in diameter?


I'm just making an educated guess here...

The engine-side (right-hand) axle shaft does need to pass the bellhousing, which is large enough to clear the ring gear around the flywheel or flex plate... but that's only a small shaft. In the attached photo of a couple of Fiero transaxles (from a Fiero forum), as seen from the engine side, the close fit of the shaft to the bellhousing is apparent.

Closer to the right-hand side of the vehicle, there will presumably be a steady bearing and bracket, and past that the inboard CV joint. Bearing, bracket, and joint will all be substantially larger (in radial extent from the shaft centreline) than the shaft itself, and that's where there was presumably interference between the shaft assembly and the motor casing.


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## jbman (Oct 26, 2017)

brian_ said:


> I'm just making an educated guess here...
> 
> The engine-side (right-hand) axle shaft does need to pass the bellhousing, which is large enough to clear the ring gear around the flywheel or flex plate... but that's only a small shaft. In the attached photo of a couple of Fiero transaxles (from a Fiero forum), as seen from the engine side, the close fit of the shaft to the bellhousing is apparent.
> 
> Closer to the right-and side of the vehicle, there will presumably be a steady bearing and bracket, and past that the inboard CV joint. Bearing, bracket, and joint will all be substantially larger (in radial extent from the shaft centreline) than the shaft itself, and that's where there was presumably interference between the shaft assembly and the motor casing.


Worst case, assuming the motor doesnt fit with the stock transaxle, why not just use a different transaxle? Shouldn't be that bad.

Even then, a motor like a Warp 11 with a gearbox in a car like a Fiero is overkill. Something will break, especially with the torque multiplication and instant low-down torque.

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## GigawattsCanada (Jan 16, 2019)

I guess we will see this spring how this motor fits. If it doesn't fit then I guess some fabrication won't hurt.


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

jbman said:


> Worst case, assuming the motor doesnt fit with the stock transaxle, why not just use a different transaxle? Shouldn't be that bad.


True - all available transaxles will likely bolt in similarly, although a replacement transmission might not come with the right mounts for a Fiero if it came from another model. It looks like there were three manual transmissions for the Fiero (presumably two of them are in that photo I found), with a four-speed and two five-speeds. They have five different ratios combinations in the Fiero (and one of the 5-speeds alone is available with several different sets of ratios due to its use in multiple models of GM cars), which might be handy.



jbman said:


> Even then, a motor like a Warp 11 with a gearbox in a car like a Fiero is overkill. Something will break, especially with the torque multiplication and instant low-down torque.


Will it?

NetGain rates the WarP 11 at 135 lb-ft of torque maximum (at 452.8 amps), which is nearly identical to the peak torque output of the Fiero's 4-cylinder engine, and substantially less than the peak torque output of 170 lb⋅ft (230 N⋅m) of the Fiero's 6-cylinder engine. Torque multiplication by the transmission is the same regardless of what is providing the torque input.

Torque from zero rpm to whatever speed the motor can produce it to is no worse for the transmission than the same torque at the 3000+ rpm speed at which the engines produce peak torque.

If the rate of torque rise is too high (higher than dumping the clutch with an engine?) then that's what the ramp rate parameter in any reasonable controller is there to handle.

If a much higher-torque motor is used (or the same WarP 11 but driven to higher current), then first gear could be locked out, to avoid the highest output torque... if the issue is on the output side.


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## GigawattsCanada (Jan 16, 2019)

DrGee said:


> GigawattsCanada said:
> 
> 
> > GE11 said:
> ...


No it also has a blank tag lol


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## PocoEV (Nov 4, 2014)

I've got 40K miles on a GE 9" DC traction motor in my Fiero. It's been great fun but is far from a rocketship. I'm at the point of rebuilding the motor and thinking Warp9 replacement. Solid solution and should be a simple slip into the existing space. Another option is the SRIPM from NetGain. I just have not heard any reviews/installations on the SRIPM. 

If you go the way of a used Clark forklift motor, you need to factor in the cost of turning/cutting the comm and replacing brushes. If it's got heavy use, steam cleaning and baking plus replacement bearings. Sometimes a $500 eBay special can be expensive in terms of time. IMHO.


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

PocoEV said:


> I've got 40K miles on a GE 9" DC traction motor in my Fiero. It's been great fun but is far from a rocketship. I'm at the point of rebuilding the motor and thinking Warp9 replacement. Solid solution and should be a simple slip into the existing space. Another option is the SRIPM from NetGain. I just have not heard any reviews/installations on the SRIPM.
> 
> If you go the way of a used Clark forklift motor, you need to factor in the cost of turning/cutting the comm and replacing brushes. If it's got heavy use, steam cleaning and baking plus replacement bearings. Sometimes a $500 eBay special can be expensive in terms of time. IMHO.


Be interested to hear (and see) what (if any) differences the GE and the Warp9 have

As far as power is concerned that is not the motor - you simply need to feed it more amps and volts
If you leave the input the same then the Warp9 will perform the same


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## DrGee (Aug 22, 2018)

Duncan said:


> PocoEV said:
> 
> 
> > I've got 40K miles on a GE 9" DC traction motor in my Fiero. It's been great fun but is far from a rocketship. I'm at the point of rebuilding the motor and thinking Warp9 replacement. Solid solution and should be a simple slip into the existing space. Another option is the SRIPM from NetGain. I just have not heard any reviews/installations on the SRIPM.
> ...


I suppose there are significant cost savings if you decide to repurpose a used lift motor. There is also the "joy" of the rebuild itself. This is my dilemma. 
The specs of the Netgain motors are clear and relatively precise. What does it really entail to turn and old Clark or GE into a reliable Netgain or better?
Are there any threads on the forum describing how to polish the commutator, replace & advance the brushes, replace the bearings and even reinsulate the windings?


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

DrGee said:


> I suppose there are significant cost savings if you decide to repurpose a used lift motor. There is also the "joy" of the rebuild itself. This is my dilemma.
> The specs of the Netgain motors are clear and relatively precise. What does it really entail to turn and old Clark or GE into a reliable Netgain or better?
> Are there any threads on the forum describing how to polish the commutator, replace & advance the brushes, replace the bearings and even reinsulate the windings?


Replacing and advancing the brushes is easy - as is replacing the bearings

Polishing the commutator? - You may need to get it machined but you don't polish it

Basically you run it under no load low current conditions for a few hours and let the brushes and the com all get cosy with each other
I did about four hours using 12v and no load then drove for 120 km at 20% power settings 

reinsulate the windings? - to me that is a throw away and get another one

I'm a Scotsman I have cultural resistance to spending thousands of dollars on something that I can get for $200 - especially as I am pretty nasty to my motor!

There is a long thread under motors on re-using a forklift motor - I know it's long but it has everything that you need in it


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## DrGee (Aug 22, 2018)

Duncan said:


> DrGee said:
> 
> 
> > I suppose there are significant cost savings if you decide to repurpose a used lift motor. There is also the "joy" of the rebuild itself. This is my dilemma.
> ...


Thanks so much Duncan! You're a real resource.. I'll comb through that thread again and assess the process. 
Best regards, 
Greg


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