# Re: [EVDL] Thunder Sky Batteries



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Thunder Sky Batteries*

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Thunder Sky Batteries*

Thundersky has a reputation of selling crap to their customers. The only
person I've heard of that has managed to get good cells (reliably) has to
go to china and hand select each cell. From what I understand they still
find cells that are bad, yet have managed to pass Thunder Sky's quality
control.

Of course that makes me wonder what happens to the rejects, based on past
experience they probably sell them to customers that DON'T go to china and
hand select their cells.

>
> Hello -
>
> Is there any recent experience with the Thunder Sky products?
>
> Particularly the LFP 90ah
>
> http://www.thunder-sky.com/pdf/200725164728.pdf
>
> MODEL NO=EF=BC=9ATS-LFP90AHA
>
> Nominal Capacity =EF=BC=9A90AH
> Operating Voltage=EF=BC=9A2.5V=EF=BD=9E4.25V
> weight=EF=BC=9A3kg=C2=B1100g
> Dimensions=EF=BC=9A145=C3=97220=C3=9768=EF=BC=88mm=EF=BC=89
>
> There is a lot of OLD experience with Thunder Sky and their products. I
> am
> looking for a reasonable battery pack that I can afford and that will
> provide the power and safety to make my EV a viable vehicle.
>
> Thanks
>
> --
> View this message in context:
> http://www.nabble.com/Thunder-Sky-Batteries-tf4801998s25542.html#a13739441
> Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at
> Nabble.com.
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev


-- =

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----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Thunder Sky Batteries*

Last June, I ordered 30 LFP40AHA's and 15 LFP90AHA's. I negotiated that if
this order went well. There would likely be future large quantity orders.
Ironically, the day after I committed the order, I learned of previous
difficulties with TS from this very list. After a brief "OH, #@%$*!!", I
reiterated to them that it would be a waste of shipping to send bad cells
and have to ship them back, so please be sure with the QA.

According to the paperwork, they were made to order. The serial numbers
were sequential, with a few numbers skipped, indicating some rejects were
pulled from the shipment.

So far, the 40's have been on the road for only a couple of months and are
performing well-amazingly actually after being used to lead acid. Changes
the whole electric transportation strategy. When I fix my DAQ I'll get some
output numbers. Acceleration feels more than adequate in these 2-wheel
applications, but not quite Hawkers. The 90's are still shelved awaiting
the future owner of an electric motorcycle to select a frame they want to
convert. No evidence of bad cells out of the crate, but you don't really
know until they've been cycled a while.

Coupled with Rich Rudman's cycle testing, my conclusion is that the
chemistry and cost/performance ratio is better than anything else I've seen
so far. Time will tell if QA and sound business practices will be
guaranteed for all purchasers, but please let's not open THAT can of worms
again.

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf
Of EV Pete
Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2007 10:51 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: [EVDL] Thunder Sky Batteries


Hello - 

Is there any recent experience with the Thunder Sky products?

Particularly the LFP 90ah

http://www.thunder-sky.com/pdf/200725164728.pdf

MODEL NO$B!'(BTS-LFP90AHA 

Nominal Capacity $B!'(B90AH
Operating Voltage$B!'(B2.5V$B!A(B4.25V
weight$B!'(B3kg$B!^(B100g
 Dimensions$B!'(B145$B!_(B220$B!_(B68$B!J(Bmm$B!K(B

There is a lot of OLD experience with Thunder Sky and their products. I am
looking for a reasonable battery pack that I can afford and that will
provide the power and safety to make my EV a viable vehicle.

Thanks

-- 
View this message in context:
http://www.nabble.com/Thunder-Sky-Batteries-tf4801998s25542.html#a13739441
Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at
Nabble.com.


_______________________________________________
For subscription options, see
http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev

_______________________________________________
For subscription options, see
http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Thunder Sky Batteries*

You might get lucky and get good cells, but then again you might not.

The main issue is that they've made it clear that they won't honor any
kind of warranty and won't replace defective cells.

Caveat Emptor doesn't even apply to these folks, since Caveat Emptor
doesn't include the buyer knowingly selling defective merchandize which TS
has done in the past.


> Last June, I ordered 30 LFP40AHA's and 15 LFP90AHA's. I negotiated that
> if
> this order went well. There would likely be future large quantity orders.
> Ironically, the day after I committed the order, I learned of previous
> difficulties with TS from this very list. After a brief "OH, #@%$*!!", I
> reiterated to them that it would be a waste of shipping to send bad cells
> and have to ship them back, so please be sure with the QA.
>
> According to the paperwork, they were made to order. The serial numbers
> were sequential, with a few numbers skipped, indicating some rejects were
> pulled from the shipment.
>
> So far, the 40's have been on the road for only a couple of months and are
> performing well-amazingly actually after being used to lead acid. Changes
> the whole electric transportation strategy. When I fix my DAQ I'll get
> some
> output numbers. Acceleration feels more than adequate in these 2-wheel
> applications, but not quite Hawkers. The 90's are still shelved awaiting
> the future owner of an electric motorcycle to select a frame they want to
> convert. No evidence of bad cells out of the crate, but you don't really
> know until they've been cycled a while.
>
> Coupled with Rich Rudman's cycle testing, my conclusion is that the
> chemistry and cost/performance ratio is better than anything else I've
> seen
> so far. Time will tell if QA and sound business practices will be
> guaranteed for all purchasers, but please let's not open THAT can of worms
> again.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On
> Behalf
> Of EV Pete
> Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2007 10:51 PM
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: [EVDL] Thunder Sky Batteries
>
>
> Hello -
>
> Is there any recent experience with the Thunder Sky products?
>
> Particularly the LFP 90ah
>
> http://www.thunder-sky.com/pdf/200725164728.pdf
>
> MODEL NO$B!'(BTS-LFP90AHA
>
> Nominal Capacity $B!'(B90AH
> Operating Voltage$B!'(B2.5V$B!A(B4.25V
> weight$B!'(B3kg$B!^(B100g
> Dimensions$B!'(B145$B!_(B220$B!_(B68$B!J(Bmm$B!K(B
>
> There is a lot of OLD experience with Thunder Sky and their products. I
> am
> looking for a reasonable battery pack that I can afford and that will
> provide the power and safety to make my EV a viable vehicle.
>
> Thanks
>
> --
> View this message in context:
> http://www.nabble.com/Thunder-Sky-Batteries-tf4801998s25542.html#a13739441
> Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at
> Nabble.com.
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>


-- 
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
legalistic signature is void.

_______________________________________________
For subscription options, see
http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Thunder Sky Batteries*

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Thunder Sky Batteries*

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----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Thunder Sky Batteries*



> Peter Oliver wrote:
> > Going to China to test the cells is NOT out of the question. Is
> > there a documented methodology that would outline a reliable test
> > procedure?
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Thunder Sky Batteries*

Hello???
Madman here.. for my once a week EV list Fix/Rant.

I have 80 Thunder Sky AHA90 cells
On hand..
And 140 40 amp hour cells .

The first 4 90s made 95 amp hours

I also have 140 40AHA cells for doing Plug in Hybrid work
The first 4 have 1100 cycles on them..
Yea I have over 1000 Cycles at %80 DOD on them. They consistently make 31
amp hours.. You are not supposed to %100 deep cycle them..
The best performance is .....70 to 80 % DOD..
So in round numbers I have processed 422.4 Kilowatt hours through 4 40 amp
hour cells set up as a 12 volt pack.
They have been running since August '07.

Any body Else Got number like this????

I Ran 4 LFP 90s for 10 cycles... Got 95 amphours from them... Got change
for that 90 ???
Backed the limits off to 4.00 and 2.800 and still got 90 amp hours from
them.

The test run was at .5 C.. I ran the max of 2.5 volt floor and a 4.25 volt
ceiling... Got name plate plus from them.

There are tricks.. and limits, but they do what they advertise.

I really wish you would not trash what you clearly don't have a bit of
experience at.

I need to apologize to the EV list for not being here Real time, But I have
been building:
PHEV kits
PFC chargers
Lead Acid BMS
And now Lithium Regs to support any Lithium cell with our PFC chargers.

And trying to get the never ending list of dozens of charger orders...to
shrink a bit..

I would like to correct the line..Lots of OLD data..
With Extensive NEW Data..

Thunder Sky Cells work... I don't need to know what happened 6 years ago.
I was there....The cells basically didn't show up for the party.

The new Cells Lithium Iron Phosphate cells work as advertised... and a bit
more than that actually.

Anyone can show up here At Manzanita Micro and see for themselves...

The Cycler runs all day every day the Power is ON...
Drawing pretty curves... that look better than the ones on the Thunder Sky
Website.

Come on Guys... Every time I come up for air on this EV list, the same guys
are trashing the Same battery manufacture over and over, Over Some mistakes
made last Millennium.

Lets get with the current picture.. or you folks are getting close Quoting
False hoods As fact.
I believe this list Frowns on that kinda thing.

Rich Rudman
[email protected]
Manzanita Micro
360-297-7383,
Cell 360-620-6266
Production shop 360-297-1660
FAX at Metal shop 1-360-297-3311



----- Original Message ----- =

From: "Peter VanDerWal" <[email protected]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, November 14, 2007 6:43 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Thunder Sky Batteries


Thundersky has a reputation of selling crap to their customers. The only
person I've heard of that has managed to get good cells (reliably) has to
go to china and hand select each cell. From what I understand they still
find cells that are bad, yet have managed to pass Thunder Sky's quality
control.

Of course that makes me wonder what happens to the rejects, based on past
experience they probably sell them to customers that DON'T go to china and
hand select their cells.

>
> Hello -
>
> Is there any recent experience with the Thunder Sky products?
>
> Particularly the LFP 90ah
>
> http://www.thunder-sky.com/pdf/200725164728.pdf
>
> MODEL NO=EF=BCsTS-LFP90AHA
>
> Nominal Capacity =EF=BCs90AH
> Operating Voltage=EF=BCs2.5V=EF=BDz4.25V
> weight=EF=BCs3kg=C2=B1100g
> Dimensions=EF=BCs145=C3-220=C3-68=EF=BC^mm=EF=BC?
>
> There is a lot of OLD experience with Thunder Sky and their products. I
> am
> looking for a reasonable battery pack that I can afford and that will
> provide the power and safety to make my EV a viable vehicle.
>
> Thanks
>
> --
> View this message in context:
> http://www.nabble.com/Thunder-Sky-Batteries-tf4801998s25542.html#a13739441
> Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at
> Nabble.com.
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev


-- =

If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
legalistic signature is void.

_______________________________________________
For subscription options, see
http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev

_______________________________________________
For subscription options, see
http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Thunder Sky Batteries*



> Rich Rudman wrote:
> > I would like to correct the line..Lots of OLD data..
> > With Extensive NEW Data..
> >
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Thunder Sky Batteries*



> Rich Rudman wrote:
> >
> > Come on Guys... Every time I come up for air on this EV list, the same guys
> > are trashing the Same battery manufacture over and over, Over Some mistakes
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Thunder Sky Batteries*

Lee, this applies to cells that are made in automatic lines. Hand made 
and in small patches basicly forces you to test all the cells. Diviation 
is huge.

If you are using BMS you can test the cell impedance in one spot. If you 
wish to do something with the impedance over the life time of the cell 
you should also track impedance from 100 to 0 SOC.

I tested LMP-30 cells and could not see anything wrong from outside. But 
even then the cells died in few weeks at worst case. Some cells have 
lasted ove year but then started to fail. The iron bolt holding the cell 
piles against the cell pole has corroded it self to black iron oxide goo 
and shorted the cells.

To get best out of the cell testing measure the temperature changes on 
the cell with device accurate enough. It affects on the impedance nicely.

So even testing the cells will not prove anything. I learned this hard way.

For now I'm keeping my hands off completely from LFPs even the iron 
phosphate is interesting new thing. Some are in test bench for systems 
for China markets. That's it.

Tom Parker kirjoitti:
>> Patch of few thousand cells can go through and be a problem in field
>> after year or so. I still have not got compensation for my 1600 pcs
>> of broken cells.
>
> So now I'm very concerned.
>
> Jukka, could you explain what went wrong with your 1600 broken cells?


Tom, Yes.

The cell internal corrosion destroyed the cells. Nothing can be done 
since the iron oxide just destroys the LMP cells. With Iron Phosphate 
you can perhaps get away but I bet we'll see failures soon. If not.. 
good for all of those who have bought them. But the bolt assembly is 
just wrong. That is one of the main issues nowadays. No BMS, no CCS nor 
any device can go around it.

One of the most interesting thing to me is that TS claimed this to be 
normal R&D process. So they do not need to compensate the cells. Not to 
even mention the about 100 000 eur expences since we had to replace all 
broken cells with LCPs at customer site. So business as usual. Quite 
strange acting towards a "friend" who just made big portion of their 
overturn last year.

Julie from TS also told me that there is so many inquries and people to 
buy their products that I must be wrong about the quality issue. 
Everybody else is just so darn happy with their policy and goods. I have 
to admit I was more optimistic before this problematic patch of LMP cells.

LCPs seem not to have the corrosion issue. At least cells from 2003 do 
not have this problem. We've recently opened few oldies and they're just 
fine. Stored in all possible orientations.

I've also missed the part where TS was able to go around the Hydro 
Quepec Iron Phosphate patent. So far no prrof of such.

I've been criticiced about being too open about these issues in EVDL. 
But after all.. It all started from here years ago. Before I even 
founded FEVT.

So these are the main issues why we are now pushing hard to start the 
battery manufacturing in Finland. QC has to be up to standards we 
recognize. It has been extremely interesting to learn so much about Lion 
batteries with TS and Chinese universities. I can never thank them 
enough. I knew nearly nothing about this technology 6 years ago. Now I 
have to admit that I know something  And still lot to learn.

-Jukka


Lee Hart kirjoitti:


> > Peter Oliver wrote:
> >> Going to China to test the cells is NOT out of the question. Is
> >> there a documented methodology that would outline a reliable test
> >> procedure?
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Thunder Sky Batteries*

I have to add here that the shitty cells we got were purchased in 2006. 
Last millenium ? Right.

Rich, how did you go around the HQ's patents on Iron Phosphate when the 
LFPs arrived to USA ? After all commercial products should obey some 
kind of standards in this too. Right ?

I know too an excellent source for the best Hollywood movies in DVDs. 
Just here in ShenZhen.. about 50 cents each.

TS has no issues with this in China since HQ patents are not valid 
there. In USA they are.

-Jukka


Victor Tikhonov kirjoitti:


> > Rich Rudman wrote:
> >> Come on Guys... Every time I come up for air on this EV list, the same guys
> >> are trashing the Same battery manufacture over and over, Over Some mistakes
> >> made last Millennium.
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Thunder Sky Batteries*

There seems to be some kind of myth that in a string set up li-ion are self equalizing. Is there truth to this? Looks 
like tests below was done in string of 4. What should be done if anything if you are running them in a string of 20? 
What suggestions to improve life of 20 series thundersky?

Thanks,
Daniel
fun-ev.com
http://visforvoltage.org/forum/2360-recognize-scooter/



> Rich Rudman wrote:
> > Hello???
> > Madman here.. for my once a week EV list Fix/Rant.
> >
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Thunder Sky Batteries*

And TS is still not honoring their warranty?
What a surprise.
Or have they changed to not offering any warranty? You know, send us some
money and we'll send you something, might even look like a battery.

> I have to add here that the shitty cells we got were purchased in 2006.
> Last millenium ? Right.
>
> Rich, how did you go around the HQ's patents on Iron Phosphate when the
> LFPs arrived to USA ? After all commercial products should obey some
> kind of standards in this too. Right ?
>
> I know too an excellent source for the best Hollywood movies in DVDs.
> Just here in ShenZhen.. about 50 cents each.
>
> TS has no issues with this in China since HQ patents are not valid
> there. In USA they are.
>
> -Jukka
>
>
> Victor Tikhonov kirjoitti:


> >> Rich Rudman wrote:
> >>> Come on Guys... Every time I come up for air on this EV list, the same
> >>> guys
> >>> are trashing the Same battery manufacture over and over, Over Some
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Thunder Sky Batteries*

Is this relevant to HQ patents?

http://www.everspring.net/uspatent.htm

Chromium-Flourine-Lithium? Sounds like toothpaste for the mentally ill.

Then there's this chemical breakdown description:

http://www.everspring.net/product-battery-msds.htm

Scroll to bottom and read the disclaimer on that last one.

Keeping other business practices as a separate issue, I'm at least
appreciative of an entity which cuts through the $$$ machinery that keeps
good technology out of the marketplace and unavailable.




-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf
Of jukka
Sent: Saturday, November 17, 2007 4:38 AM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Thunder Sky Batteries

I have to add here that the shitty cells we got were purchased in 2006. 
Last millenium ? Right.

Rich, how did you go around the HQ's patents on Iron Phosphate when the 
LFPs arrived to USA ? After all commercial products should obey some 
kind of standards in this too. Right ?

I know too an excellent source for the best Hollywood movies in DVDs. 
Just here in ShenZhen.. about 50 cents each.

TS has no issues with this in China since HQ patents are not valid 
there. In USA they are.

-Jukka

_______________________________________________
For subscription options, see
http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Thunder Sky Batteries*

Jukka,

Which cathodic chemistry are you planning to use for your battery
manufacturing operation in Finland: 1) cobalt (LiCoO2, 2) iron phosphate
(LiFePO4), or 3) manganese [either by itself (LiMn2O4) or possibly in one of
the various combinations seen, mixed together with some amount of cobalt
and/or nickel and/or aluminum]?

Or maybe you're planning to offer two or three different types of cells with
the respective various different chemistry types above?

Thanks,

Charles Whalen




> Jukka wrote:
> 
> > So these are the main issues why we are now pushing hard to start the
> > battery manufacturing in Finland. QC has to be up to standards we
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Thunder Sky Batteries*

We are looking in to various different chemistries. The mechanics allow 
nearly any cell type to be made.

LiFePO4 is surely one.

I will use LiNiCoMn on my evs (LCP). I think it's the best option currently.

-Jukka


Charles Whalen kirjoitti:
> Jukka,
> 
> Which cathodic chemistry are you planning to use for your battery
> manufacturing operation in Finland: 1) cobalt (LiCoO2, 2) iron phosphate
> (LiFePO4), or 3) manganese [either by itself (LiMn2O4) or possibly in one of
> the various combinations seen, mixed together with some amount of cobalt
> and/or nickel and/or aluminum]?
> 
> Or maybe you're planning to offer two or three different types of cells with
> the respective various different chemistry types above?
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Charles Whalen
> 
> 
>


> Jukka wrote:
> >
> >> So these are the main issues why we are now pushing hard to start the
> >> battery manufacturing in Finland. QC has to be up to standards we
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Thunder Sky Batteries*

Want I liked in Jukka's reply the most is that TS does its
R&D at unsuspecting customer's expense. What a cool concept!
Product by R&D definition may or may not work well... but
will be sold regardless, and customer doesn't need to know.
He just needs to pay. Gotta love it.

Victor



> Peter VanDerWal wrote:
> > And TS is still not honoring their warranty?
> > What a surprise.
> > Or have they changed to not offering any warranty? You know, send us some
> ...


----------

