# Wh/mile consumption of buses?



## CroDriver (Jan 8, 2009)

How much energy could a full size bus for short distances (within cities) need if it runs on batteries...? 

Something like this:










Major, you're working on EV buses if I remember right...? A local company is interested in such a project but I'm not really into buses so I have no idea if a all electric bus makes sense at all (i.e. if the batteries for the range they need will be too expensive).


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

CroDriver said:


> How much energy could a full size bus for short distances (within cities) need if it runs on batteries...?
> Major, you're working on EV buses if I remember right...? A local company is interested in such a project but I'm not really into buses so I have no idea if a all electric bus makes sense at all (i.e. if the batteries for the range they need will be too expensive).


Hi Cro,

I don't think you'll win any races in that thing 

Yeah, I worked on a 40 ft, 38,000 pound series hybrid like about 12 years ago and a 24 ft, 20,000 pound parallel hybrid about 6 years ago. Hybrids seem to be the way to go. The kWh per mile for the vehicle alone is pretty bad, but gets terrible when you throw in the accessory load. The GVWR of the bus is already maxed out with human bodies (passengers), so the battery mass cuts into the revenue quickly.

Most attempts at battery powered buses fail because they have limited range (like maybe an hour of service), need multiple recharges per day, high cycle rate on battery causes early replacement, and the cost is staggering. 

I don't recall the Kwh/mile. But on the white book urban cycle, that 40 footer went from like 1.8 mpg to 3.2, IIRC, improvement with hybrid. Yeah, sucks. But then remember you have like 50 people aboard 

I suggest you (or they) look at coach markers which have hybrid options. There should be some in Europe. A development program for a battery or hybrid bus is a million dollar plus project and will take several years, and like was our problem, even if you're successful with the prototype, no coach maker will do them for you unless they invent it in house.

Hey, I don't want to discourage you. Fleet operations are best for commercial EVs and HEVs. Go for it 

major


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## ewdysar (Jun 15, 2010)

Given typical fuel consumptions of 2 to 3 gallons per hour at cruising speed, I would guess that a bus runs at 200hp or more continuous. This looks like at least 150kW without taking acceleration and hills into account.

You might also look up fuel cell buses, they should have specs on the fuel cell output. given that and their operating parameters like speed and distance, you should be able to run the basic calculations for what you're thinking about.

Eric


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

In another thread I looked at the numbers for this:
http://www.thunder-sky.com/products_en.asp?fid=71&fid2=75

Assuming they are accurate, from the PFD on the site they are using 156 700Ah cells. That gives 156 x 3.2 = 500 Volts x 700Ah = 350,000 watt hours, 350 Kilowatt hours. 350,000 wh divided by 186 miles range = 1882 wh/mi, which is horrible, but what you'd expect from a bus that size.


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## ewdysar (Jun 15, 2010)

JRP3 said:


> In another thread I looked at the numbers for this:
> http://www.thunder-sky.com/products_en.asp?fid=71&fid2=75
> 
> Assuming they are accurate, from the PFD on the site they are using 156 700Ah cells. That gives 156 x 3.2 = 500 Volts x 700Ah = 350,000 watt hours, 350 Kilowatt hours. 350,000 wh divided by 186 miles range = 1882 wh/mi, which is horrible, but what you'd expect from a bus that size.


That's pretty cool. Check out the pictures of the drive unit, rated to 150kW and suitable for "all kinds of truck or transport vehicle under 30,000kg"! What do you think that the drive unit weighs?


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## Jan (Oct 5, 2009)

Maybe here's some relevant info:

http://www.e-traction.com/index.htm


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

These links might be of interest:
http://www.dft.gov.uk/pgr/roads/environment/research/cqvcf/economicsofbusdrivelines?page=8
http://www.dft.gov.uk/pgr/roads/environment/research/cqvcf/economicsofbusdrivelines?page=10
http://www.osti.gov/energycitations/product.biblio.jsp?osti_id=5307172
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gyrobus
http://www.bathtram.org/tfb/tQ15.htm

A few years ago I looked into writing a thesis on using flywheels as a storage medium for inner city buses. The theory being that the flywheel battery could be 'charged up' very quickly at each bus stop and only required sufficient range to travel maybe 2-3 miles, given bus stops are generally around 1/3 mile to 1 mile apart.

A quick charge point could be placed at each stop and the tracking information could be adapted to include billing to the bus company. The electricity could be taken directly from the electricity cables under the road.

To relieve the electricity supply company of huge peaks in demand when the bus stopped the charging point would include a flywheel battery that charged gradually between buses and then dumped its energy to the bus in one quick hit.


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## Weisheimer (May 11, 2009)

CroDriver said:


> A local company is interested in such a project but I'm not really into buses so I have no idea if a all electric bus makes sense at all (i.e. if the batteries for the range they need will be too expensive)


Hi Cro,

Take a look at Neon-John's site to see some of the ill-fated AVS line of hybrid buses. 
They were AC electric drive using micro-turbine generators to charge AGM batteries.
.
http://www.johndearmond.com/2008/06/09/avs-bus-salvage/

Jim Davis bought a couple of them at auction and has some good information on them at:

http://metabus.org/


Cheers

Mark


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## aeroscott (Jan 5, 2008)

Hard to believe AVS did such a bad job , planned failure or incompetence ?


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## tomofreno (Mar 3, 2009)

You might check these guys: http://www.proterraonline.com/


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