# Kelly KDH14500



## frodus (Apr 12, 2008)

sounds like they have some issues with their higher voltage controller.....

I just don't like the fact that they don't have an isolated controller (where the lower voltage part is actually isolated internally from the power side).

as long as you fuse the 144V system right, and the 12V system right, you should be fine. It sounds like something inside the controller.


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## F16bmathis (Jun 6, 2008)

You know... Thinking back on it, when I had the controller connected to the trucks 12V system, I never did have a chance to drive it. So, fuses will be installed and I'll try it again, once I get a controller.

Thanks,

Brian


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## adric22 (Jan 17, 2008)

F16bmathis said:


> In all 3 cases, I could never go faster than *25mph*, pulls about 50 amps at best, and 25 as an average over 19 miles.


I'm curious.. When you say this happened in all 3 cases, do you mean you could never pull more than 50 amps the entire time you had the controller, even when it was working. Or do you mean you could only pull 50 amps after it blew?


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## F16bmathis (Jun 6, 2008)

The first one blew before I could drive it. When the controllers were working, yes, I could only pull about 50 amps. When they fried, I didn't try hooking them up and driving! Thats when I removed the controllers ground from the truck in any form, used rubber sheet to isolate the controller from the mount, used an industrial heeat sink.

The next two drove, about 25 mph, and once I saw 90 or so amps, but I was probably going downhill in first gear. When starting, the controller only put out 50 amps max, which slowly decreased to 25-30 then less as I went back uphill. And thats in first gear. Other gears had no acceleration.

When I get another controller, I'll connect the 12V to the trucks ground and NOT short the 144V system to the trucks ground, and test drive that.

When the controller shorted, the truck was on jacks, went full speed in third gear, till I pulled the main off. It spit sparks/flame at the firewall. Had I not been on jacks, it would have possibly killed the guy standing in front, and ran through my garage and killed my 68 Firebird!


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## adric22 (Jan 17, 2008)

F16bmathis said:


> When the controllers were working, yes, I could only pull about 50 amps.


Okay.. I was wondering because I have a Kelly controller too (the 72 volt version) and I have NEVER been able to pull 600 amps, which it is rated at. You'll probably see I just posted another post about this topic. The most I've ever seen is about 300 amps, and usually it is close to 250 amps at full throttle. 

Something happened this morning and the car is running very slow and I can't pull more than about 100 amps or so. Not sure why just yet. So I was thinking it was a controller issue.


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## F16bmathis (Jun 6, 2008)

I don't know. The kellycontroller.com shows the 72V being a 300 amp controller, and like my 500 amp, you'll probably never see that. I was told to expect 250-300 amps at best, 500 would be a less than a minute before it overheated.

I looked at a blog Steven from Kellycontroller.com wrote, and he said to make sure the trucks ground and the controllers ground are connected. I'm going to fuse it, and when I get a controller, I'll test drive it. He also said not to short the HV battery pack to the trucks ground, otherwise you would short out the controller.

Currently they have my fried controller, and have not sent back any e-mail or a controller as of a couple days ago. Up to now, they've been more than helpful in getting me new controllers to fry, but I'm having problems with them answering if the controllers power should come from the truck, the HV battery pack, or a totally seperate second 12V battery.

How are your grounds and power connected?


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## VDubber (Jun 2, 2008)

Just curious - what are you Kelly guys doing for cooling of the controllers?

Perhaps there is a heat issue, as they are supposed to cut back the amps as the switching silicon get hot.


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## adric22 (Jan 17, 2008)

F16bmathis said:


> I don't know. The kellycontroller.com shows the 72V being a 300 amp controller, and like my 500 amp, you'll probably never see that. I was told to expect 250-300 amps at best, 500 would be a less than a minute before it overheated.


Yes, they told me the same thing. However, I've talked with an engineer at D&D Motor and they sell Alltrax controllers. I told him about my experience and he said that if a controller is advertised as a 450 amp controller, then it should pull 450 amps from the battery pack and deliver that much to the motor. When I told him about my Kelly he said "It sounds like they are selling a 300 amp controller and labeling it as a 600." 

How are your grounds and power connected?[/quote]

My ground on the controller is the same as the main battery pack. I'm simply tapping off of 24V to power the controller. But that is how the wiring diagram that came with mine said to do it. So I don't have the issue you are describing.

As for heat.. Can't be. My controller rarely even gets warm. (another reason I think it isn't pulling the amps as advertised). I have it mounted to a large heatsink using thermal grease, but I don't think it even needs it. Besides, this issue that started on me this morning where it has about 50% power (or less) was when the car had sat overnight. It should have been nice and cool.


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## TheSGC (Nov 15, 2007)

It almost sound like the programming failed and it dropped from it's 600 AMP setting to the lowest possible. Like bad EEPROM or something. I would try to reset the whole controller and then reprogram it.


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## frodus (Apr 12, 2008)

Sounds like Kelly isn't Derating the internal components of the controller at all. 

They may be able to handle spikes of 600A, but I've yet to hear a controller actually making it to the 1 min 600A rating.


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## adric22 (Jan 17, 2008)

frodus said:


> They may be able to handle spikes of 600A, but I've yet to hear a controller actually making it to the 1 min 600A rating.


Can you clarify here. When you say that, are you talking about Kelly Controllers, or any brand of controller in general?


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## frodus (Apr 12, 2008)

adric22 said:


> Can you clarify here. When you say that, are you talking about Kelly Controllers, or any brand of controller in general?


My appologies....
I haven't heard a kelly controller reach the 600A mark yet....


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## VDubber (Jun 2, 2008)

frodus said:


> Sounds like Kelly isn't Derating the internal components of the controller at all.
> 
> They may be able to handle spikes of 600A, but I've yet to hear a controller actually making it to the 1 min 600A rating.


This may explain the vast price difference... eh?

If one relabels the controllers with 1/2 - 2/3 the amperage rating, then the prices fall right in line with other brands: 

Zilla Z2K-HV = $8/Kw (!!!)
Zilla Z1K-LV = $12/Kw
Alltrax 7245 = $18/Kw
TSE 600-96 = $19/Kw
Curtis 1231C = $22/Kw
Curtis 1221C = $24/Kw
Curtis 1209B = $26/Kw

Derated Kelly KDH09600 = $24/Kw
Derated Kelly KDH14500 = $27/Kw

EDIT: Hey! That's a nice little list. I never thought of them that way (power for your dollar). I think I may just get a TSE 600-96, since it is the lowest per Kw for the 96V controllers and my motor could never use even half the power of a Zilla Z1K (making it around $24/Kw for me).


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## norrislte (Jun 7, 2008)

A possible reason for lack of current is internal motor resistance.
Voltage = Current x Resistance,
or,
Voltage / Resistance = Current,
or,
Voltage / Current = Resistance

Use the equation above based upon the 2 known values.

So, depending upon battery pack voltage (and sag), Motor resistance (and wiring resistance as well), this could limit current.

I believe that copper has a positive Temperature coefficient (resistance goes up with temperature), so temperature of the motor will also have an effect.


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## F16bmathis (Jun 6, 2008)

Well, I just got back from meeting with Steven from Kellycontrollers.com/ tech service guy. He gave me a fourth controller, sat down and chatted some.

The controller is suppossed to be connected to the 12v truck battery, it is internally connected to the 144v negative, a dc-dc converter is preferred. In the diagram it says do not connect the 144v to the trucks ground, but what they mean is just that. You DO connect the 12v truck power and ground to the controller.

I have the fourth controller in, powered by the trucks 12v system, no dc-dc converter. Still waiting for it. The truck pulled 200 amps in first, after using the calibration program, tried all the seetings, but the 115 setting worked best. When I get time later, I'll test it for max speed.


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## roguesoul (May 3, 2008)

Hey Brian,
So your 4th controller is working? Are you able to drive at a slow speed like 5mph? The reason I ask is, on your schematic it looks like 5v goes from the controller through a resistor and directly back into the controller, completely bypassing the pot throttle.

So did you go to Illinois and meet with Steven at Kelly? They really have taken care of you haven't they? Where the first three controllers bad or was wiring the problem? Aside from the accidental short?

Kevin


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## VDubber (Jun 2, 2008)

I notice there is no provision for a precharge in your diagram Brain. Was this not drawn, or are you not running one?

No precharge + HV usually results in blown and fried controllers...


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## F16bmathis (Jun 6, 2008)

I have the controller set up for 5v to 0v. It is wired and I measured and it starts at 5v and goes to 0v. The first controller was wired right, but I didn't know it was internally wired b- to trucks ground, so I shorted the batt pack unwillingly. The other 2 were re-wires to not have trucks ground and 144v pack together which is wrong!

I do have a precharge resistor, guess I'll have to show it.

Brian


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## Sunelectro (Dec 22, 2010)

I would connect the Kelly to the trash can, We have had several failures, one kelly failed after 14 months of service by self destructing, one attempted suicide by attempting a full power dash into traffic after 9 months of service. These are unreliable, controllers that will get you in trouble. For a low end controller try a Curtis, we have never had a problem.

I am installing one of the new Solution 1 1200 Amp controllers now, it seems to be a well thought out piece of gear, more on how it runs later.


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## todayican (Jul 31, 2008)

Im curious Sunelectro, when were your Kelly failures, it seems they have gotten better with some of their new models, just measuring by the amount of negative press. I was looking closely at one but wound up going with the new Sevcon Gen 4


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## Sunelectro (Dec 22, 2010)

First failure was about 6 Months ago, the second last week. We are calling in all the Kellys we have out and replacing them with Curtis units, I would never forgive myself if someone got hurt.


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## F16bmathis (Jun 6, 2008)

Sunelectro said:


> I would connect the Kelly to the trash can, We have had several failures, one kelly failed after 14 months of service by self destructing, one attempted suicide by attempting a full power dash into traffic after 9 months of service. These are unreliable, controllers that will get you in trouble. For a low end controller try a Curtis, we have never had a problem.
> 
> I am installing one of the new Solution 1 1200 Amp controllers now, it seems to be a well thought out piece of gear, more on how it runs later.


Thats a great idea! And when it fails, it'll be that much easier to get rid of!

One of my several failed Kellys would have sent the truck over a friend and through my garage and into my mint 68 Firebird Convertible . Good thing I had it on jacks!


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## Guest (Dec 22, 2010)

So the KDH14500 is only a 500 amp peak controller. In my opinion a weakling for such a large pack. Heck a weakling for any pack. I am not an advocate of controllers that pump out 500 or less on a street driven vehicle. Heck my first controller was an old GolfTech 72 volt 550 amp controller. It would push 500 amps and pushed my Ghia just fine for the small pack and meager amperage. I did not push the car and the controller worked flawless. Once the good heat sink was on it never heated up. EVER. It's still being used today too. I would not put it on a heavy vehicle. I would not put a low amperage controller on any heavy vehicle. I am fully aware of all the folks who use curtis controllers but still don't recommend you use low amp controllers on heavy vehicles. I'd love to see the bad press next time a curtis gives up the smoke. I doubt anyone will and it will be attributed to owner error or just a plain old controller which it could very well be. 

So how old is the controller? Does it have a GOOD heat sink and fan? Does it have a precharge resistor installed? Are you expecting it to push 500 amps all the time? Are you pushing the 275 continuous rating? Are you pushing the 450 1 minute rating all the time? If so I'd expect your controller to quit in short order. If you need more then get more. Don't complain about under controlling your vehicle and blame the controller. 

Pete


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## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

gottdi said:


> I am not an advocate of controllers that pump out 500 or less on a street driven vehicle...


That's good advice if you have a motor with advanced brush timing (the usual 36V forklift motor) because they deliver less torque per amp to be able to tolerate a higher voltage (RPM). You need more current to get a motor like this moving, in other words, but it will take a much higher current when overloaded, too.

A _high voltage_ 500A controller paired with an _interpoled_ motor (like a Kostov) is a whole 'nother story, though. You need less current to deliver a given amount of torque and the interpoles let you run the RPMs way up without zorching. 

I mean, a 2000A controller sounds fantastic, right, but not if it was also rated for just 36V because then it would be no more powerful than a 144V/500A Curtis!



gottdi said:


> Are you pushing the 275 continuous rating? Are you pushing the 450 1 minute rating all the time? If so I'd expect your controller to quit in short order. If you need more then get more. Don't complain about under controlling your vehicle and blame the controller.


Sorry, but I absolutely cannot agree with this. I can understand a controller blowing up from a freak accident like dropping a wrench across its output terminals, but from simply being overloaded? No way. It is 100% the controller's fault if it doesn't protect itself from such common abuses as not being kept cool enough, or being installed in too-heavy a vehicle, etc. And it is _never acceptable_ for a controller to fail in such a manner that it causes the vehicle to leap into traffic or plow through a garage wall!


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## F16bmathis (Jun 6, 2008)

gottdi said:


> So the KDH14500 is only a 500 amp peak controller. In my opinion a weakling for such a large pack. Heck a weakling for any pack....So how old is the controller? Does it have a GOOD heat sink and fan? Does it have a precharge resistor installed? Are you expecting it to push 500 amps all the time? Are you pushing the 275 continuous rating? Are you pushing the 450 1 minute rating all the time? If so I'd expect your controller to quit in short order. If you need more then get more. Don't complain about under controlling your vehicle and blame the controller.
> 
> Pete


 All good advice, problem is when I was buying, first vehicle, I was being told by the Kelly rep that it WOULD propell an S10 up to highway speeds! Now being slightly more experienced, I know there's no way that small boxed controller could possibly move more than a small car, and not to highway speeds. And as far as heat dissipation, I had the "Mother of heat sinks" attached to the largest cooling fan I could fit onto it. And yet it still overheated before the truck even got to 35 mph!

So yeah, they were'nt meant for large vehicles, and I'd never use one even for a small project, too many failures. 

Also, I've had a Curtis 500 which DID get me up to highway speeds (and faster) and am currently using a Curtis 500 upgraded to a 650 with no overheating and no cooling fan, just a heat sink. Of course its like 20 degrees outside! But it worked great in the summer also.

So I had a bad experience with Kelly's, rep lied or didn't know, controllers failed 4 times, 3 times leading to uncontrolled accelerations , (why I'd never build a car without an "inside cab" HV shutoff) and when they did work, they overheated . And I never got past around 40 mph. But my experience with Curtis has been 3 in, one connected the HV wire to the Throttle Pot connection, so burnt that up, cheaply repaired, but never had a run-away, and they do get you to highway speeds. Even the Kelly, what was it?, 650, didn't do much better. I mean really, for the money, it sucked! The Curtis has a longer track record and is very reliable.

I personally think Kelly's are dangerous and would NEVER recommend one to anyone. But thats just me, and my experience was over a year ago. Maybe they got better since then, but I'm not buying one. I feel they're still playing catch up!


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## F16bmathis (Jun 6, 2008)

Tesseract said:


> Sorry, but I absolutely cannot agree with this. I can understand a controller blowing up from a freak accident like dropping a wrench across its output terminals, but from simply being overloaded? No way. It is 100% the controller's fault if it doesn't protect itself from such common abuses as not being kept cool enough, or being installed in too-heavy a vehicle, etc. And it is _never acceptable_ for a controller to fail in such a manner that it causes the vehicle to leap into traffic or plow through a garage wall!


I so agree with that! Besides a 500 amp controller putting out 250 amps and getting to 35 mph isn't abuse! Yes, same configuration as the Curtis which ACTUALLY does put out what they advertise!


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## Guest (Dec 22, 2010)

After looking at your vehicle I can see that your choice was to cut corners and that it is very underpowered to propel your vehicle. But your controller was telling you something. If it was only going 35 then the controller was working and cutting back but you pushed kept pushing the thing. POOF. 

Now you run a Zilla. Go figure. You need Zilla power for that truck. You were expecting too much and did not do your homework. I do not fault Kelly Controller.


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## Qer (May 7, 2008)

gottdi said:


> You were expecting too much and did not do your homework. I do not fault Kelly Controller.


So that an EV-controller can fail in a dangerous way, and has done that several times, is ok in your book?

I have, probably to no surprise to anyone, to side with F16bmathis, Sunelectro and Tesseract on this one. That controllers occasionally fail is pretty natural, 100% reliability is an impossible dream, and that cheap controllers fail more often is at least not completely surprising. That the controllers repeatedly fail in dangerous ways or when unloaded (one of F16bmathis' Kellys failed when the truck were on jacks! WTF?) is rather unforgivable in my book.

Also; Kelly-controllers are micro controller based. I have a VERY hard time coming up with an excuse for that the micro controller doesn't monitor the temperature and AT LEAST shut down before it overheats to dangerous levels. To me it sounds like sloppy work, too little testing or that they don't give a fuck about the customers.


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## Guest (Dec 22, 2010)

Actually before any one can say any thing we need full disclosure which I highly doubt we will get to help troubleshoot what caused the failures. We are all guilty of jumping to conclusions. 

There is a cause for all failures and that is what needs to be found rather than blaming. By the way, if a Kelly overheats it does cut back.


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## F16bmathis (Jun 6, 2008)

gottdi said:


> After looking at your vehicle I can see that your choice was to cut corners and that it is very underpowered to propel your vehicle. But your controller was telling you something. If it was only going 35 then the controller was working and cutting back but you pushed kept pushing the thing. POOF.
> 
> Now you run a Zilla. Go figure. You need Zilla power for that truck. You were expecting too much and did not do your homework. I do not fault Kelly Controller.


Yes the Zilla is awesome!, I don't need Zilla power for the truck, just like to race the ICE's and win! Curtis 500 is good for driving as it did as an ICE. 

The Kelly when it didn't blow up, got me to 35 with no poof! The poof's happened mostly when just starting out. Once I was at a gas station (not buying gas) and just turned the ignition key on and had just barely pressed the pedal to back out of my parking spot, poof!

I did my homework, 500A works fine when you actually get the 500 amps! Kelly (when I bought mine almost 2 years ago) advertised a 500 amp controller, but I NEVER got 500 out of it, and just replacing it with a Curtis got me 500 Amps and highway speeds with everything else being the same! They may have improved since then, but I'm still saying they're playing catch-up. I don't trust them, esp since they'll blow and not shut themselves down like Curtis or Zilla, and others... 

Yes, I was trying not to pay $$$$ when starting out, and I listened to a Kelly rep who said a 500A Kelly was as good as a 500A Curtis. I didn't know what a headache I was about to have, almost got me out of the electric car driving. Today, I'd spend the extra $$$ and get a controller that doesn't have several people whinning about how they blow up.

What I don't understand is why are you defending Kelly so much? I don't like them, you obviously do. Do you run them, or sell them? I was going to put a Kelly in my golf cart, but I'm still worried it would've have blown up, so I sold it. (I actually can't believe I had one that didn't go poof!)


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## F16bmathis (Jun 6, 2008)

Qer said:


> So that an EV-controller can fail in a dangerous way, and has done that several times, is ok in your book?
> 
> I have, probably to no surprise to anyone, to side with F16bmathis, Sunelectro and Tesseract on this one. That controllers occasionally fail is pretty natural, 100% reliability is an impossible dream, and that cheap controllers fail more often is at least not completely surprising. That the controllers repeatedly fail in dangerous ways or when unloaded (one of F16bmathis' Kellys failed when the truck were on jacks! WTF?) is rather unforgivable in my book.
> 
> Also; Kelly-controllers are micro controller based. I have a VERY hard time coming up with an excuse for that the micro controller doesn't monitor the temperature and AT LEAST shut down before it overheats to dangerous levels. To me it sounds like sloppy work, too little testing or that they don't give a fuck about the customers.


My Kelly actually did shut down somewhat. The top speed was 35, actaully hit 40 once but I was going downhill. But driving around after a minute or so, it heated up and slowed to a crawl. Mine usually blew up when you were just starting out, so it was pretty cold yet.

And I had HUGE cooling fins and a rather large fan, but as GOTTI says, its not a controller for average size street vehicles. Not sure what his stats are, (web site is not very revealing) but a VW bus isn't that far from an S10, so I'm not sure if he can attain 65-70 MPH like a Curtis, or 80 (so far) like the Zilla. I'd guess he's more around 45-50 at best... Even the Kelly's size should let you know it can't dissapte the heat fast enough to get your speed up there. Wanna race? I'll use the Curtis just to keep it sort of even!


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## Guest (Dec 22, 2010)

I expect to get 65 mph or better and we will be using our Synkromotive controller. 120 volts and lithium batteries. I am not building a race car but will run it up to show what it can do. Oh and I will be using an 11"Kostov motor coupled to a rebirth auto adaptor with a clutch and fwy gears in the tranny. 

Pete


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## Guest (Dec 22, 2010)

At 96 volts and a boat load of lead and my synkro, my ghia would do 85 and never once did it over heat and I pushed it to the hilt and the physical size is small. Physical size is not an indication of abilities. 

Pete


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## EVfun (Mar 14, 2010)

Sunelectro said:


> I would connect the Kelly to the trash can, We have had several failures, one kelly failed after 14 months of service by self destructing, one attempted suicide by attempting a full power dash into traffic after 9 months of service. These are unreliable, controllers that will get you in trouble. For a low end controller try a Curtis, we have never had a problem.


LMAO  I will point out that I have had an older Curtis 1221B controller fail full on! It seems they don't (or didn't?) check the freewheel diode temperatures and one steep uphill in Seattle taking off in second gear was a bit much for it. The believed cause of failure when something like this:

Touch the throttle after climbing the hill and while stopped. A diode had failed and shorted on as it cooled a bit. The MOSFETs fail to shut off due to this short. The MOSFETs explode like popcorn, flames shoot out of the back end of the Curtis, the tires take to squealing and the car launches like a stuck pig! Optima batteries and a Prestolite motor with no effective controller between them just laugh at the vehicles brakes, I'm dragging the front tires and the rear tires are still roasting. A Curtis Albright SW200 saves the day!


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## Qer (May 7, 2008)

gottdi said:


> I expect to get 65 mph or better and we will be using our Synkromotive controller. 120 volts and lithium batteries. I am not building a race car but will run it up to show what it can do. Oh and I will be using an 11"Kostov motor coupled to a rebirth auto adaptor with a clutch and fwy gears in the tranny.
> 
> Pete


Soooo, you're gonna defend the honour of Kelly with a Synkromotive. What does F16bmathis get to defend Curtis? Zilla Z2K?


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## F16bmathis (Jun 6, 2008)

Qer said:


> Soooo, you're gonna defend the honour of Kelly with a Synkromotive. What does F16bmathis get to defend Curtis? Zilla Z2K?


Synkromotive, is that a Kelly brand?

To defend Curtis, I'll just use a Curtis!


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## Qer (May 7, 2008)

F16bmathis said:


> Synkromotive, is that a Kelly brand?


Hush! You might offend Synkromotive...


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