# Re: [EVDL] Homemade potbox legal requirements?



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Homemade potbox legal requirements?*

And don't forget to put a second return spring on it. They do fail, and if
it does while you've got your foot into it, the only option is to Shut 'er
down. I wouldn't call it a legal requirement, but I would call it a
requirement.

Dave Cover



> Peter VanDerWal <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> > There are NO legal "Requirements" for a pot box.
> > There is a 99% probability that the guy doing the inspection has never
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Homemade potbox legal requirements?*

See http://go-ev.net/pics/021.jpg for how I install and modified a Curtis 
PB-5 pot box. Note the coil spring on this pot. I had to rotate it a 
little tighter and fasten the end of the spring on a steel cable clamp.

This little spring would not pull the the pot completely off. Try different 
carburetor springs, but did not work as good. This coil spring now has been 
working good for 6 years now.

Every time someone who wants to look at this installation, that is 
non-technical and eyeballs the whole works at the same time, go into a daze 
or coma and said they would not even attempt making a EV.

In a electrical installation, you start at the power source and work towards 
the load, step by step. It like teaching someone how falling water 
generates electricity and ends up moving a vehicle.

Roland




----- Original Message ----- 
From: "dave cover" <[email protected]>
To: <[email protected]>; "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" 
<[email protected]>
Sent: Saturday, May 24, 2008 7:51 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Homemade potbox legal requirements?


> And don't forget to put a second return spring on it. They do fail, and if
> it does while you've got your foot into it, the only option is to Shut 'er
> down. I wouldn't call it a legal requirement, but I would call it a
> requirement.
>
> Dave Cover
>
> On Fri, May 23, 2008 at 4:58 PM, Peter VanDerWal <[email protected]> 


> > wrote:
> >
> > > There are NO legal "Requirements" for a pot box.
> > > There is a 99% probability that the guy doing the inspection has never
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Homemade potbox legal requirements?*

As far as legal requirements... as far as I know, few if any of the boxes
available meet legal requirements that would be imposed on a throttle by
wire for a ICE -- redundant resistors with microprocessor checking for
consistency of signal, etc. The ICE computer throttles have been discussed
a few times on this list recently, and they are generally much much more
sophisticated than the typical EV pot box.

Z



> Peter VanDerWal <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> > There are NO legal "Requirements" for a pot box.
> > There is a 99% probability that the guy doing the inspection has never
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Homemade potbox legal requirements?*

> As far as legal requirements... as far as I know, few if any of the boxes
> available meet legal requirements that would be imposed on a throttle by
> wire for a ICE -- redundant resistors with microprocessor checking for
> consistency of signal, etc. The ICE computer throttles have been
> discussed
> a few times on this list recently, and they are generally much much more
> sophisticated than the typical EV pot box.
>

Can you point out a statute, ANY statute that specifies a "legal
requirement" for ICE throttles? Fly by wire or otherwise?

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Homemade potbox legal requirements?*



> Peter VanDerWal <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> > > As far as legal requirements... as far as I know, few if any of the boxes
> > > available meet legal requirements that would be imposed on a throttle by
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Homemade potbox legal requirements?*

<Personal observation>

Most, if not all, of the legally mandated safety features are to protect
people from accidents outside the control of the automakers. I.e.
Bumpers, Side impact beams, safety belts, etc. are designed to protect you
when another vehicle hits you, or you hit something. These accidents are
generally not caused by a failure in the car itself.

Automakers are somewhat reluctant spend money making a car safer if they
can't directly be held responsible.

However, given the huge numbers of vehicle made, the statistical
probability of something like a throttle pot failing is pretty high. Such
a failure could easily put the passengers in danger, so it only makes
sense for the automakers to add redundancy in order to protect themselves
from litigation.

If the automakers are already implementing a safety feature on their own,
then their is little reason to add to our already enormous legal codes by
adding a law requiring them to do something they are doing anyway.



>> Can you point out a statute, ANY statute that specifies a "legal
>> requirement" for ICE throttles? Fly by wire or otherwise?
>
>
> Not that I know of. I guess what I meant was the way that major auto
> makers have chosen to implement electronic throttle controls is alot more
> sophisticated and with more failsafe features than a basic pot box on an
> EV. Why they've done this is anyone's guess.
>
> Z
>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> For subscription options, see
>> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>>
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Homemade potbox legal requirements?*



> Peter VanDerWal wrote:
> > However, given the huge numbers of vehicle made, the statistical
> > probability of something like a throttle pot failing is pretty high. Such
> > a failure could easily put the passengers in danger, so it only makes
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Homemade potbox legal requirements?*



> Tom Parker wrote:
> 
> > Given I only have one input, I'm guessing there isn't really very much
> > I
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Homemade potbox legal requirements?*

http://www.evdl.org/archive/index.html#nabble-f25542

It was a past discussion about potboxes and someone mentioned
paralleling multiple pots to add safety. My electronics know-how is
fairly rusty, someone want to take a crack at explaining if that would
work?

On second thought, seems to me that two parallel pots would give you
redundancy when it comes to a dirty track causing power drop-outs, but
I can't see how it would give you safety in a stuck-accelerator
condition.

As far as safety goes .. Isn't there a microswitch in the pot box that
cuts the circuit at zero throttle? (Maybe I've misunderstood the
conversations on here, no hands-on experience myself..) If that was
the case, you could install a second microswitch with an independant
mechanical linkage to add some safety - maybe on the pedal end, so you
have a second cut-out.

Ben



> Tom Parker <[email protected]> wrote:
> > On Sat, 2008-05-24 at 10:17 -0600, Peter VanDerWal wrote:
> >> However, given the huge numbers of vehicle made, the statistical
> >> probability of something like a throttle pot failing is pretty high. Such
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Homemade potbox legal requirements?*



> Doug Weathers wrote:
> > On May 24, 2008, at 8:34 PM, Tom Parker wrote:
> >
> > > Given I only have one input, I'm guessing there isn't really very much
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Homemade potbox legal requirements?*

They were making quite a lot of inverters (>1000 units) not to neglect the
throttle control. As you noticed, there are software limits to detect
shorted or open (broken wire) throttle pot. If you got Bosch unit, you
have two pots (+ kick down switch) on one shaft. You can parallel them
if you worried about reliability - inverter doesn't care about 
resistance being half of what it was before - the pot works as voltage
divider and still will divide the same way (% per so many degree of 
turn) as before. But I wouldn't worry about it - Bosch pot will not fail 
and its spring will not break. There is very good reason it is > $300 pot.

The only part of the throttle system that can fail undetected by
Siemens inverter is your linkage or flex cord in jacket that can get 
stuck. This has nothing to do with the pot itself. so all yo uhave to do 
is take care of the free movement so it always returns to initial position.

--
Victor
'91 ACRX - something different


Tom Parker wrote:
>


> Peter VanDerWal wrote:
> >> However, given the huge numbers of vehicle made, the statistical
> >> probability of something like a throttle pot failing is pretty high. Such
> >> a failure could easily put the passengers in danger, so it only makes
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Homemade potbox legal requirements?*



> Metric Mind wrote:
> > But I wouldn't worry about it - Bosch pot will not fail
> > and its spring will not break. There is very good reason it is > $300 pot.
> 
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Homemade potbox legal requirements?*



> Tom Parker wrote:
> > The only thing I can think of that could improve the system in any
> > meaningful way would be a throttle pedal with built in pot, so you
> > eliminate the throttle cable and associated chance of jamming. Of
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Homemade potbox legal requirements?*

If your linkage jams in the middle, there is no way for the system
to determine if this is mechanical failure or driver just keeps
his foot on the pedal. No system can read your mind.

However, there is still safety measure implemented in Siemens
inverter software - if the pot is not returned in zero position
(e.g. voltage on the wiper exceed value you specify as max allowed),
after you shut the system down normally, you will not be able to start 
it again.

Any drive by wire (e.g about any mid class and up cars
newer than about 2002 or so) will typically have throttle pedal
with TPS integrated in it. With fuel injector based engines
control is electronic anyway. You can get any of those
as spare part easily. Typically the unit will have
two pots, one 1/2 of resistance of the other and used as voltage
dividers so absolute resistance deviations won't matter.

My guess is voltage off 1/2 resistance is being 2x amplified and
compared to the other pot's voltage - they should match within predefined
margin. If not, the car is still drivable on remaining pot's input
(they are smart OR'ed) as if nothing happened, but the idiot light comes
on and OBD code will tell you exactly what failed.

Victor
'91 ACRX - something different


Tom Parker wrote:
>


> Metric Mind wrote:
> >> But I wouldn't worry about it - Bosch pot will not fail
> >> and its spring will not break. There is very good reason it is > $300 pot.
> >
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Homemade potbox legal requirements?*

Try a Sewing machine's foot control pedal?
Try an electronic organ's foot-volume control pedal?
Try a guitarist's foot control pedal....
There are so many foot-operated "potboxes" out there...
...including from *gasp* cars that have this type of
pedal/potbox assembly.

I know of the 2001-2003 Prius which is using this setup.
Occasionally there were a few with issues, so a Prius
enthusiast setup a refurb service (Doug Schaefer) but since
he moved to China, it is now performed by Bob Wilson as part
of a home business where he wants to support Prii until they
reach 625k miles (1,000,000 km) which explains the name of
his website:
http://625k.com/products/pri_acc.html

Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
Email: [email protected] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [email protected]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Second Life: www.secondlife.com/?u=3b42cb3f4ae249319edb487991c30acb

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Tom Parker
Sent: Sunday, May 25, 2008 2:08 AM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Homemade potbox legal requirements?



> Metric Mind wrote:
> > But I wouldn't worry about it - Bosch pot will not fail and its spring
> > will not break. There is very good reason it is > $300 pot.
> 
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Homemade potbox legal requirements?*

Cor van de Water wrote:
> Try a Sewing machine's foot control pedal?
> Try an electronic organ's foot-volume control pedal?
> Try a guitarist's foot control pedal....
...

That's so similar to the bright idea of using a fish tank
pump to cool EV electronics just because fish tank pump
is cheap. Whether it will reliably do the job is not
relevant.

Why not just use automotive parts for automotive use and
guitar parts for audio hardware? Both are available.
Why take chances with guitar pedal based throttle?

Improvisation is good when you play guitar, not when
there is a chance controller gets stuck full on. Beats me.

Victor


> 
> I know of the 2001-2003 Prius which is using this setup.
> Occasionally there were a few with issues, so a Prius
> enthusiast setup a refurb service (Doug Schaefer) but since
> he moved to China, it is now performed by Bob Wilson as part
> of a home business where he wants to support Prii until they
> reach 625k miles (1,000,000 km) which explains the name of
> his website:
> http://625k.com/products/pri_acc.html
> 
> Cor van de Water
> Systems Architect
> Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
> Email: [email protected] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
> Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [email protected]
> Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
> Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
> Second Life: www.secondlife.com/?u=3b42cb3f4ae249319edb487991c30acb
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Tom Parker
> Sent: Sunday, May 25, 2008 2:08 AM
> To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Homemade potbox legal requirements?
> 
>


> Metric Mind wrote:
> >> But I wouldn't worry about it - Bosch pot will not fail and its spring
> >> will not break. There is very good reason it is > $300 pot.
> >
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Homemade potbox legal requirements?*

Sounds like a ton of over kill in the thinking dept,.........go pedal makes
it "GO"......"Stop pedal" makes it stop. if the go pedal is broken: as in no
go or all go , you just decide if you should use the stop pedal then turn
the "OFF" switch,
Yes that means the "Driver" is the brain of the car and needs some skill
Yes I have had it happen to me.....in a parking lot pointed straight at the
front window of the store.
My system worked then and still does.
If your brakes have enough built into them and your kill switch works....
you have all the back up systems you need.

oh yah.... the pedal return spring came off, now I use The $2 fix and use 2
of them
Now if your scared to drive just say you are, if you lack the skills to
drive then by all means make the car to over come your lack of skill, but
don't act like every EV needs all that extra stuff.
Every car just needs a skilled driver., maybe if the driving skills test was
harder that would weed out the unskilled?




> Metric Mind <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> > Cor van de Water wrote:
> > > Try a Sewing machine's foot control pedal?
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Homemade potbox legal requirements?*

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Randy Eckert" <[email protected]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, May 26, 2008 10:14 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Homemade potbox legal requirements?


> Sounds like a ton of over kill in the thinking dept,.........go pedal 
> makes
> it "GO"......"Stop pedal" makes it stop. if the go pedal is broken: as in 
> no
> go or all go , you just decide if you should use the stop pedal then turn
> the "OFF" switch,

Hi EVerybody;

At least some SANITY in this silly thread! Thank You, Randy! Hell, we 
KEEP the clutch, for alot of this Runaway thing? We blow up a motor rather 
than creating a new Drive In door in a store?Standing on the brakes, Just 
turning off your KEY! Duh! Your Line Switch may fry, opening at a gazillion 
amps? But you call AAA to come get you, dignity intact.? End of issue? You 
schleppe the controller basck to Otmar, Peter WhomEVer? to get it 
fixed.After all, you BUILT the car, should be able to handle it's issues?


> Yes that means the "Driver" is the brain of the car and needs some skill

BINGO! We have a winner here<G>?!

Seeya

Bob 

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Homemade potbox legal requirements?*



> On 26 May 2008 at 9:14, Randy Eckert wrote:
> 
> > Yes that means the "Driver" is the brain of the car and needs some
> > skill ...
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Homemade potbox legal requirements?*

yes please , off the shelf parts are great, but until then I want to drive
not wait, cars that do too much thinking spend too much time in the shop
with bloody large repair bills for a handful of car brain parts that take a
crap any time they please leaving you with the bill to fix it and pay the
tow truck.
keep it simple.
the best designs always are

On Mon, May 26, 2008 at 12:54 PM, EVDL Administrator <[email protected]>


> wrote:
> 
> > On 26 May 2008 at 9:14, Randy Eckert
> 
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Homemade potbox legal requirements?*

There is one SAE requirements for electronic throttles (J1843) but it 
focuses primarily on medium and heavy trucks. The other requirement, that 
is accessible, is FMVSS 124 on throttle controls. This is where redundancy 
is required.
The fact that the throttle has a single input does not mean that there is 
redundancy inside the unit which compares the two internal signals to be 
sure they are the same before sending signal to the control device.
Richard
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Tom Parker" <[email protected]>
To: <[email protected]>; "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" 
<[email protected]>
Sent: Saturday, May 24, 2008 10:34 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Homemade potbox legal requirements?


>


> Peter VanDerWal wrote:
> >> However, given the huge numbers of vehicle made, the statistical
> >> probability of something like a throttle pot failing is pretty high.
> >> Such
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Homemade potbox legal requirements?*

I would move away from pot boxes all together. They are make shift old 
technology. Use an automotive grade electronic throttle. Literally 
millions of these are being made today around the world. As they are in 
high volume, the pricing is pretty reasonable. Go to your local Chrysler 
dealer and look for the vehicles with electronic throttles and you can get 
service parts pricing for these throttles for under $100. The electrical 
connector may be an issue. Or go to a salvage yard with current model 
vehicles and you may be able to find one complete with the electrical 
connector. These units are typically non-contact sensor and go 10,000,000+ 
cycles for durability. They are totally sealed and just about bullet-proof. 
They are current technology and the world is going in that direction, jump 
on it.
Richard
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Metric Mind" <[email protected]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Sunday, May 25, 2008 3:33 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Homemade potbox legal requirements?


> They were making quite a lot of inverters (>1000 units) not to neglect the
> throttle control. As you noticed, there are software limits to detect
> shorted or open (broken wire) throttle pot. If you got Bosch unit, you
> have two pots (+ kick down switch) on one shaft. You can parallel them
> if you worried about reliability - inverter doesn't care about
> resistance being half of what it was before - the pot works as voltage
> divider and still will divide the same way (% per so many degree of
> turn) as before. But I wouldn't worry about it - Bosch pot will not fail
> and its spring will not break. There is very good reason it is > $300 pot.
>
> The only part of the throttle system that can fail undetected by
> Siemens inverter is your linkage or flex cord in jacket that can get
> stuck. This has nothing to do with the pot itself. so all yo uhave to do
> is take care of the free movement so it always returns to initial 
> position.
>
> --
> Victor
> '91 ACRX - something different
>
>
> Tom Parker wrote:
>>


> Peter VanDerWal wrote:
> >>> However, given the huge numbers of vehicle made, the statistical
> >>> probability of something like a throttle pot failing is pretty high.
> >>> Such
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Homemade potbox legal requirements?*



> Richard Marks wrote:
> > I would move away from pot boxes all together. They are make shift
> > old technology.
> 
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Homemade potbox legal requirements?*



> Lee Hart <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> >Richard Marks wrote:
> >> I would move away from pot boxes all together. They are make shift
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Homemade potbox legal requirements?*

Lee,
You certainly have an interesting perspective on things. Pot boxes are 
old technology because they have been replaced with a much more robust new 
technology. It has absolutely nothing to do with the electrical parts you 
mentioned. It has to do what is currently available, very safe and very 
robust and has very few potential failure modes. Most of the e-throttles I 
would use are high quality automotive from today, not even 10 years ago. You 
are right that $100 is not reasonable, but if you want one, they are 
available from your local auto dealership (who is a robber anyway). Their 
$100 throttle is probably a $15 part cost to the OEM. These pedals require 
no routing of cables, no need to locate another device someone where the 
cable can reach. no need to worry about it's sealing, and no need to worry 
what happens in an accident and something hits your cable? It is just a 
better way to consider doing your throttle in your electric vehicle.
Richard
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Lee Hart" <[email protected]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, May 27, 2008 5:46 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Homemade potbox legal requirements?




> > Richard Marks wrote:
> >> I would move away from pot boxes all together. They are make shift
> >> old technology.
> >
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Homemade potbox legal requirements?*

Hello Richard,

Back in 2002, I replace my CableForm 900 amp controller with a Zilla 1000A =

from Caf=E9 Electric. I would have love to use the existing CableForm =

accelerator controller, which is a in a water proof cast aluminum box that =

uses a taper cone potentiometer control by a cast aluminum atomic proof =

lever that ran for 28 years with no problem.

I would tell you want the cost of this item is, but I am not, because you =

guys will flip out on the cost.

According to Otmar at Caf=E9 Electric, I could not use any thing but a 5k =

potentiometer at the time. Boy, what a cheap Mickey mouse unit this is, But =

it's now been working for six years now when no problem, because I surround =

it in a solid aluminum enclosure with a watertight bonnet.

Another reason it may had lasted so long, that I drive my EV at a constant =

peddle pressure which the potentiometer contact is not sliding all the time=
. =

Something like setting the throttle for a aircraft.

Now Caf=E9 Electric has a Zilla control unit that will accept a hall effect =

accelerator control they supplied, but would have to change out the Zilla =

control unit.

Does the OEM electronics throttle have a idle circuit which I can switch in=
, =

and additional circuitry that can disconnect the battery pack during a =

emergency shutdown, or I would have to modified this unit too.

Roland




----- Original Message ----- =

From: "Richard Marks" <[email protected]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, May 28, 2008 2:31 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Homemade potbox legal requirements?


> Lee,
> You certainly have an interesting perspective on things. Pot boxes =

> are
> old technology because they have been replaced with a much more robust new
> technology. It has absolutely nothing to do with the electrical parts you
> mentioned. It has to do what is currently available, very safe and very
> robust and has very few potential failure modes. Most of the e-throttles =

> I
> would use are high quality automotive from today, not even 10 years ago. =

> You
> are right that $100 is not reasonable, but if you want one, they are
> available from your local auto dealership (who is a robber anyway). Their
> $100 throttle is probably a $15 part cost to the OEM. These pedals =

> require
> no routing of cables, no need to locate another device someone where the
> cable can reach. no need to worry about it's sealing, and no need to worry
> what happens in an accident and something hits your cable? It is just a
> better way to consider doing your throttle in your electric vehicle.
> Richard
> ----- Original Message ----- =

> From: "Lee Hart" <[email protected]>
> To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
> Sent: Tuesday, May 27, 2008 5:46 PM
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Homemade potbox legal requirements?
>
>


> > > Richard Marks wrote:
> > >> I would move away from pot boxes all together. They are make shift
> > >> old technology.
> > >
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Homemade potbox legal requirements?*



> Richard Marks wrote:
> >>> I would move away from pot boxes all together. They are make
> >>> shift old technology.
> 
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Homemade potbox legal requirements?*

So you weren't sold on the retroencabulator technology then, Lee? :^)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wwd_d_nYxdI

> 
> I repeat the last line from my last post on the subject -- don't use 
> technology as a substitute for quality!
> -- 
> Ring the bells that still can ring
> Forget the perfect offering
> There is a crack in everything
> That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
> --
> Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
> 
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Homemade potbox legal requirements?*

Haaaaahhhaaahaahaaaaaa. For the first half of that I thought they were
explaining the technology behind the Evette  Haaahaahaahaaa. Now that
there's funny...

..
Norm
http://www.wacparts.com


-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf
Of [email protected]
Sent: Thursday, May 29, 2008 2:00 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Homemade potbox legal requirements?

So you weren't sold on the retroencabulator technology then, Lee? :^)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wwd_d_nYxdI


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Homemade potbox legal requirements?*



> Richard Marks wrote:
> ...
> 
> > You
> ...


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