# Tr-Amp: 1990 Geo Tracker Conversion



## Yukon_Shane (Jul 15, 2010)

PeterH's Geo Tracker build threat has inspired me to final start one of my own. 

First off it's worth noting that, when it comes to completing (or nearly completing) this conversion, I've found this group to be an invaluable resource. Without the assistance of the folks here there's no way I would have been able to get as far as I have. 

I guess it's about time I stopped "lurking" around the forum and started contributing some of the things I've learned so far

Any comments or suggested improvements are truelly welcome.


Shane


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## Yukon_Shane (Jul 15, 2010)

So here she is, the 1990 Geo Tracker. I think this vehicle is an excellent candidate for conversion, it's light weight, easy to find parts for, lots of room for batteries and a strong suspension to carry alot of batteries. 

This particular car was left at my home by a member of my family. He'd towed it up to the Yukon behind his RV during a family visit and the engine died. He was planning to leave it at an auto-reckers when I naively said "hey I could turn that into an electric car!" 

Getting a donnor vehicle for free is awesome but I would a honostly suggest that anyone who is seriously considering doing a conversion give some strong consideration to their choice in vehicle beyond it's price tag. It's ALOT of work to convert one of these cars and you want to make sure that you're happy with the choice you make.


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## Yukon_Shane (Jul 15, 2010)

Here's the obligatory empty engine compartment shot.

The tracker is a great candidate for conversion except for one thing...the 4 wheel drive (4wd). 

Most of these cars came with 4wd and the 4wd components are: very heavy, prone to break, and (in my opinion) unnecessary. 

After getting the transmission out of the car (picture attached) I took one look at the size of it and decided that I was going to ditch the 4wd, replace the transmission and drop as much of the 4wd weight as I could.

I estimate I was able to drop a good 100-200 lbs by replacing the transmission and ditching the front drive components.


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## Yukon_Shane (Jul 15, 2010)

I decided to go with a clutchless setup. I'm still not 100% sure that that was the right choice, there are excellent arguments for and against. In the end it just seemed like the simpliest approach for my first conversion.

I found an excellent supplier in EVCoupler to supply me with the coupler and adapter plate. They had me send them down the original clutch as well as a template of the transmission bellhousing and measurements which they then used to produce the coupler and plate. 

Unfortunately the coupler arrived a bit worse for ware (it's a long way fron Kentucky to the Yukon) and the adapter plate dimensions were off by a bit (probably my measurements). 

EVCoupler made it right at no cost to me though. They're a great company and I'd recommend working with them to anyone.


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## Yukon_Shane (Jul 15, 2010)

The Warp 9 motor that I purchased from Michael Golub (University of Alaska Fairbanks EV conversion guru) just barely fit infront of the steering linkage withe new transmission mounted in the original location.

Rather then shoe-horn it in we decided to raise the motor and transmission up above the steering linkage and move the whol setup forward a few inches. This results in the actual shifter being a bit more foward in the cab then I'd like but I think it'll be okay and I can always rig up a new shifter later if it really bothers me.

We mounted the motor at the front with a solid plate of steel that was then mounted to the frame. We also fabricated a simple mounting plateform off of the engine mounting that will hold the controller, etc. 

It's probably a bit more rubust then is necessary but I think it looks pretty good. 

Because the "new" transmission doesn't have that monster transfer case anymore we had to improvise a new mount for the transmission. It turned out a small peice of square tubing worked pretty well.


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## Yukon_Shane (Jul 15, 2010)

After a fair amount of messing around I managed to get the electric vacuum pump kit to work properly.These kits (like alot of EV components) have pretty poor documentation and the set-up was a bit confusing. 

In hindsight it seems fairly simple but I've seen a few posts on this topic with folks that had similiar problems to myself so just incase there are any "vacuum directionally challenged" people like myself out there the key to success is to ensure that the vacuum sensor is between brake booster and the one way valve. 

If you have a brake reservoir (like I do) you may have a one way valve in the reservoir already in which case you can throw away the one that comes in the kit (putting it in will only cause you more problems).

Intuitively I couldn't see why it would matter where the vacuum sensor went until I realized the the vacumm pump didn't actually hold vacuum...I get caught up on the strangest things sometimes.


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## Yukon_Shane (Jul 15, 2010)

For a controller I decided to go with the Evnetics Soliton Jr. For my budget and the performance I wanted to get from this vehicle I think that the Soliton Jr. is an excellent choice.

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At the time it was a tough decision for me between the Jr. and the Synkromotive controller. I still think that the Synkromotive looks like an excellent controller but I think that the Soliton was the right choice for me. I like the continous power rating, high voltage and water cooling options of the soliton product. 

It's great that there is starting to be a bit of competition in this space. It's funny to think that when I first started contemplating an EV build the only real controller options were Curtis and Logysistems.

For the controller I've installed a basic computer cooling system that looks like it'll work well. I've also installed a netgain speed sensor so that the Soliton can feed me my motor RPM data.















At this point I'm a bit stalled out until I recieve my batteries. I've ordered 50 Thundersky 100AH cells from CanEV that should arrive within a few weeks. 

If I'm lucky I'll finish this build just in time to go for a test drive on a brisk Yukon winter day


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## PeterH (Mar 20, 2009)

Hi Shane!

Glad to see your build thread here. I could use some encouragement today!  

The details of your build have rasied a few questions:

1. Where are you going to place all those 50 batteries? I went with slightly larger 160 Ah batteries and only 45 of them and fitting them all in is going to be a challenge.

I see in your photos that you have a nice big area over the motor. I thought that is where you were going to put some batteries till I saw the Soliton Jr. I'm waiting to decide where to put my cells until the motor is in place. So far, I've looked at putting 12 where the gas tank was, and another 20 beneath the driver's and passenger seat, by cutting thru the floor and putting 7 outside the frame and 3 inside the frame, both boxes starting at the point where the flat part of the floor starts behind the seats. I'm afriad I may have to give up the back seat and put some more batteries there.

2. How much did you have to raise the motor to clear the sterring linkage? I think you are right about being able to raise it a bit without causing problems. At least I sure hope so because I'll likely have to do the same.

Thought I was going to find out if my Kostov would fit tonight but the adapter that came today from Can EV isn't the right one. :-( The adapter fit the Kostov just fine, but it isn't even close to fitting the transmission even tho I bought their "Geo" adapter which is listed as fitting our donor vehicle.

3. Are you planning to heat your batteries? 

4. Are you planning to heat the cabin? I'm betting you are... so I'm hoping you'll share your decisions for heat. I'll need to heat mine for sure.

5. What type of charger are you going to use? I haven't picked one yet... cause I think that the moment I do, someone will start selling a better and cheaper one!

Now aren't you glad you posted your build thread... I sure am! 

Thanks,
Pete


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## Yukon_Shane (Jul 15, 2010)

Hey Pete,

It's nice to have another tracker build in the group!

I'm planning on putting all of my batteries behind the front seats. The 50, 100 AH cells should fit nicely in a box not much bigger then the trunk/back seat area. I'll be sacrificing the back seat but I don't see any way around that. The real quest for me is do I try and recess some of the batteries into the area where the fuel tank was? This blog shows a Lead-Acid conversion which did just that with some success. http://got-ev.blogspot.com/ You can see that he managed to get the back row of Lead Acids almost level with the floor but the second row had to be elevated to avoid hitting the rear differential. I could follow this example and probably get 20-25 cells recessed below the floor but then what do you do with the rest of them? I'm not sure it's worth the work but I might try it anyway just for fun. I'm going to wait for my cells to arrive before I decide. Let us know what arrangment you come up with and how it works for you.

The choice of battery capacity was a tough one for me. The 160 AH batteries will give you much better range and higher current but they are a bit harder to fit into small spaces and with my budget I would have had to go with a much lower voltage. In some ways it also kind of depends on what controller you're going to use. Once I decided on the Soliton Jr. I knew that I could go up to 340V with my battery pack so if I used a smaller capacity battery cell (like the 100AH) and found it wasn't enough I could always just add more cells later and increase the pack voltage/energy. If, on the other hand, you're controller is only good to 150V then you're better off choosing a higher capacity cell and lower voltage to start off with because you won't be able to easily increase your pack size later. Just one of the many choices I've made that I'm not 100% sure of...

I think I ended up raising the motor around 2 inches to clear the steering components. Like I said, it wasn't difficult to do but did leave me with the shifter in a bit of an awkward spot. I'm convinced I'll be able to fabricate my own shifter later that will work well but that may be more work then I realize.

I honestly think that the adapter plate and coupler is the most troublesome part of these conversions. The company that built my adapter plate insists on you supplying a drawn template because they've had so many problems with the same model of car having different bell housings. Even with the template the adapter plate depth was way off and the adapter plate had to be changed to fit my application. I think if I did this again I might consider working with a local machine shop to build the adapter plate. Atleast that way they can see what is required rather then relying on pictures and emails.

I'm not planning to heat my batteries directly, atleast not initially. I think that there is alot of merrit in heating the bateries; however, I'm thinking that if I ensuring that the cab is warm enough for me to drive the vehicle that might be good enough to keep the batteries warm enough to perform well. I also noted some data collected by Tesseract that showed that the internal resistance of these cells was very high when they are cold which say that they will kind of act as there own heaters as soon as you start running amps through them. That being said I'm speaking from a place of significant ignorance on this topic and expect to observe the performance of the cells very closely and adapt my approach accordingly.

I am definately planning to heat the cab, unfortunately I haven't made any decisions on that yet. I was hoping to have the conversion completed early this spring and have the the summer and fall to figure that out but of course my timelines have slipped. I'm leaning towards installing a ceramic heater into the block heater (fairly common approach); however, I'm not completely sold on that idea. It would certainly be alot easier to just tie in a water heater into the existing block heater and I think that propane heaters have some merit as well. 

I'm also wondering if anyone has ever tried to use the waste heat from the motor to heat the cab. I know that Dimitri tied his controller cooler into his block heater to add some heat but the efficiency of the controller was such that there was very little heat to be had. The motor on the other hand is probably only 80-90% efficient and produces a bit of heat which a person might be able to tie into their air intake and use for some mild defrosting. Just an idea I'm toying with, I'll be sure to post what my final decision is and how it works.

Charger decision is another tough one. There are, what appear to be, some very good chargers available but they're really expensive. If you have the money I think you can't go wrong with the Manzinita. I, unfortunatley, do not have that kind of budget for this project and decided to go with the Elcon 2000+ charger. By all accounts Elcon appears to be a pretty good quality brand of charger that comes at a very reasonable price tag. The challenge with this (and other less expensive chargers) is to make sure that you know exactly what you're charger settings are before you order it because they have to be set at the factory. The Elcon has some user variability (10 pre-set voltages) but it really is key that you know what you want when you order it. EVTV did a nice little segment on these chargers last week (october 7th episode I believe) that you can check-out on Utube if you're interested. That show bores the pants off me but if you can stay awake there is often some good information convied. 

Sorry for the long response, I hope it's helpful. I look forward to watching your progress.

Shane


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## PeterH (Mar 20, 2009)

Hi Shane,

Thanks for the great response to my questions! 

Adapter... yeah... I'm about to box up and ship back the adapter I ordered from CanEV. It doesn't fit my transmission at all. Randy at CanEV understood the issue and suggest a refund. I'm thinking that I have an odd transmission because this is a factory 2WD instead of a 4WD. I'm going to look around for a local shop to work with. I agree, the adapter is a major pain.

Battery placement, I'm leaning towards giving up that back seat area also. At least till everything else is all working well and it is time to start revisions or improvements.

Charger... I will probably go with the Elcon also... haven't really investigated the subjuct but I like the idea of being able to adjust the charge parameters without having to go back to the factory... so maybe I'll save up for the Manzinita (sp?).

Heating. I like the idea of a small tank of water to provide heat for the cabin and the batteries if that proves necessary. Another local EV junkie has done something like that in his rig. I'll certainly share any information or plans I come up with when I get to that point.

I'm holding off on doing anything more on this project till I get this adapter situation resolved. Of course, that is top priority at the moment.

Thanks,
Peter


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## Yukon_Shane (Jul 15, 2010)

The charger is a tough call. I would have really liked to be able to adjust my parameters in the field; particularly as the thinking around charging seems to continue to evolve.

If you're either electronically inclined (or brave) you may also want to check-out this Open Source charger concept http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showthread.php/10kw-60a-diy-charger-open-source-59210.html 

I think that you may even be able to purchase a completed charger from emotorwerks for a reasonable price. something to think about...


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## PeterH (Mar 20, 2009)

Hi Shane, 

I'm dragging my feet on the charger issue... hoping that by the time December rolls around and my batteries show up, there has been some movement in the charger world. 

If not, I'll go with the Elcon and just suffer with a charger I can't reprogram.

Meanwhile, question: When you de-iced your rig, did you remove the Tracker's computer? I was working on removing all of the dashboard and everything behind it last night and it suddenly occurred to me to wonder if we need the computer for anything. I'm hoping not in a vehicle this old... I haven't pulled it yet, but I didn't take much care in cutting wiring from the old ICE either. 

I'm removing all the old Air Conditioning plumbing from behind the dash and cleaning everything else up. Of course all that foam gasket material between the various air handling components is all long dry-rotted away so I'll have to come up with a replacement. 

I am amazed by all the crap I found behind the dash and in the heater core and circulating fan area. You'd think the factory would design a better intake from the outside. Must have dumped 2 pounds of leaves and other junk from the various components in the dash! 

Feels good to have some cleaning to do while I wait for a new adapter plate. Can't just sit on my hands for the next few weeks!

Pete


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## Yukon_Shane (Jul 15, 2010)

Hey Peter,

I didn't pull out the computer but I really don't think it would matter. Like you I wasn't terrible careful when pulling out wires and I haven't had any problems with any of the electronics that I wanted to keep. I think that the computer in this vintage of tracker is probably primarily emissions related so that the vehicle would comply with federal emissions rules. If I remember corrrectly it was around 1990 that all vehicles had to have an OBDII compatible computer that would allow the user to plug in and look at basic emissions equipment information (o2 sensors errors, etc.). That being said I'm no expert in this area and wasn't bold enough to remove the computer completely.

On the dirty car front you'll get little sympathy from me. My tracker spent the last 5 years of it's life being draged behind an RV from one end of Canada to the other. I've found enough dust and sand I can probably make dent in reclaiming the tar sands.


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## PeterH (Mar 20, 2009)

Hi Shane,

I'm sitting in my hotel in Riyadh reading threads and spending money on ebay for parts. Told the wife to expect lots of packages while I'm away.  Just ordered a J1772 receptical and control board for my build.

Question: What are you doing for an emergency disconnect on your build?

I'm hoping to find something that is enclosed and electrically activated to disconnect the main pack if needed in an emergency... or, if I need to disconnect for maintenance.

Any word on your batteries? 

Thanks,
Pete


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## Yukon_Shane (Jul 15, 2010)

PeterH said:


> Hi Shane,
> 
> I'm sitting in my hotel in Riyadh reading threads and spending money on ebay for parts. Told the wife to expect lots of packages while I'm away.  Just ordered a J1772 receptical and control board for my build.
> 
> ...


Hey Pete,

Batteries arrived yesterday! I'm super excited to break into them this weekend; I'll post some pictures later this week. The 100 AH are alot smaller/lighter then I thought they'd be, I'd measured the pack size out a few times but I guess I hadn't really given much though to how small each individual battery would be.

Emergency disconnect: I wasn't sure how best to approach this so I asked Randy at CanEV what they typically do/suggest. He supplied me with a high amp/volt breaker and what essentially looks like a choke cable with an emergency shutoff switch attached to one end. I'll drill a hole in the breaker switch arm, run the choke cable through it and mount the emergency switch in the cab were it's easy to reach in the case of an emergency. I think this approach is fairly commonly used, it allows you to physically disconnect the current from the battery pack without you having to put your hands anywhere near the high voltage circuit.

The breaker won't replace the use of a class T fuse (a definate necessarity) but it does allow you to diconnect the pack for maintenance and in the case of emergency, etc. 

There are certainly more elaborate approaches including this device http://rechargecar.com/product/ev-ez-safe-disconnect 

I think alot of folks also run a low voltages disconnect switch that essentially just disconnects the 12V power to the controller. This approach doesn't make alot of sense to me seeing as it's essentially the same as just turning your ignition off. That being said, in an emergency it'd be better to have a red button to push rather then trying to remember to turn off your ignition. With the evnetics controllers you can also achieve a similiar result by just pressing on the brake which (assuming you've tied into the brake light circuit) will cut current through the controller.

I hope that's helpful. I'll post some pictures once I get my disconnect installed and let you know how it's working.


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## PeterH (Mar 20, 2009)

Hi Shane!

What is the word on your batteries?? Your last post said they'd been delivered so I'm been watching and hoping for an update.  

I've had to cancel my order for 160 Ah HiPower cells and I'm going with 130 CALBs. the CALBs might be delivered before the holidays but the HiPower weren't going to even be shipped till Feburary.

Thanks,
Pete


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## Yukon_Shane (Jul 15, 2010)

PeterH said:


> Hi Shane!
> 
> What is the word on your batteries?? Your last post said they'd been delivered so I'm been watching and hoping for an update.
> 
> ...


They arrived! sorry for the lack of updates, a combination of cold weather and a busy schedule has kept me from working on the project much over the past few weeks. 

I ordered from CanEV which was a positive experience. Randy at CanEV was very good at communicating with me via email and letting me know when there were delays in the shipment, when they'd arrived at his business, and when to expect them at my door. That being said, I think if I was in the U.S. I would probably have ordered through CALIBPower and saved the wait times. The batteries arrived with all the hardware required (bolts, washers, connectors, etc.) and were very well packaged in two crates and strapped in groups of 5 as per my request. 

I've started the process of top balancing the pack by putting all the cells in parrallel and using a small 3.7V, 10 amp charger from Chennic. Unfortunately I realized after connecting half the pack that I wouldn't have enough stock connectors to finish the job because they'd only sent me enough connectors to facilitate a series connection of the pack which is half the number needed to connect them all in parrellel. So I've been stripping out sections of 10 gauge wire to finish connecting the rest of the pack so that I can start the charging process.

Assuming the pack was shipped at half charge my little Chennic charger should take around 250 hours to charge the entire pack so just over 10 days! Actually now that I think of it, because the charger is just a simple constant voltage charger, the current will taper off over time so it'll probably take even longer....

Sounds like a long time but I can't think of a better way to safely charge 50 100aH cells in parrallel safely. Plus I'm not really in a hurry, I still have to figure out the battery box, BMS and state of charge metering. This little charger will ensure that the pack never goes over 3.7 volts, well below the 4 V limit of these thundersky cells so I think it's a good, low cost approach to top balancing these cells.

I should be finished with my wire stripping tomorrow and start the charging process so I'll post some pictures of the process. 

On a more exciting note (battery charging isn't very exciting) I think I'm finally starting to get my head around the design of a reasonably priced fluid cab heater. Still in the conceptual stages but I'll post more soon.


Shane


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## PeterH (Mar 20, 2009)

Hi Shane,

How are you making out with the batteries? 

I got my set of 45 CALB 130s a week before Christmas. They are still in the crates but I'm just about to mount the battery boxes. So I'm trying to decide how to keep them at a reasonable temperature.

Thanks,
Peter H.


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## Yukon_Shane (Jul 15, 2010)

PeterH said:


> Hi Shane,
> 
> How are you making out with the batteries?
> 
> ...


Hi Peter,

I've been following your build, looks like your making great progress.

My build is getting close to complete now. It took me a couple of weeks to complete the initial top balance of the back with the little Chennic charger I bought (not sure I'd do it that way again). I put all the cells in parrell and just left the little 3.6 V, 4amp charger on it until the voltage of the pack came up to around 3.5 V and the charger was down to less then 1 amp. At that point I decided it was close enough.

Since then I've just been working on the battery box which should be done this weekend. I've sacrificed the back seat so the box location won't be too difficult but I'm really interested in seeing how you make out with your battery location(s) as I think your design will be much more practicle from a day to day perspective.

Received my miniBMS system this week as well so that's ready to go. The only major component I'm missing is the "fuel gauge" and other monitoring. I'm hoping to get this component from EMotorWerks who are working on a comprehensive monitoring design that I think will work well. Unfortunately it seems to be taking a bit of tiem for this product to be completed so I might have to go with something a bit simplier for now.

I'm still struggling with the cab heating design plan. I think I'm back to using a fluid/tank heater rather then the ceramic heater option. I've ordered a "Kat's" tank fluid heater from amazon so we'll see what that looks like when it arrives. 

As for battery heating; my battery box is going to have a sheet metal base so I think I'll just mount a simple AC pad heater to the bottom of that sheet metal for now and see how well that works. It should heat the batteries evenly enough and I don't expect alot of heat will be require.

I'll post some pictures after the box is completed this weekend.


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## PeterH (Mar 20, 2009)

Hi Shane,

I'm having trouble with selecting a BMS at this time also. I was going with the centralized version of the MiniBMS until my local vendor told me he spoke with the engineers who designed it. They suggested I look at the Orion BMS because they have been having thermal problems with their centralized version.

The Orion BMS is more expensive but offers a lot more options. I think that includes keeping track of amp hours. I need to go back and re-read and maybe send them an email with more specific questions. If so, that eliminates the need to purchase a seperate component for counting amp hours as my "fuel gauge".

My local vendor has designed his own tiny tank heater for heating the cab. It went into a build and had a few problems so I think he is working on version 2.0 at the moment. I'll probably give version 2.0 a try because version 1.0 worked well, but lacked a few safety features that it needed. I'm waiting to hear from him on this subject.

Looking forward to your pictures... I'll update my build with some more pictures after I finish with the last two boxes and put them all in place. Not going to permanently mount them until I determine a good solution to the battery warming issue which is nearing the top of my priority list. 

Thanks,
Pete


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## Yukon_Shane (Jul 15, 2010)

PeterH said:


> Hi Shane,
> 
> I'm having trouble with selecting a BMS at this time also. I was going with the centralized version of the MiniBMS until my local vendor told me he spoke with the engineers who designed it. They suggested I look at the Orion BMS because they have been having thermal problems with their centralized version.
> 
> The Orion BMS is more expensive but offers a lot more options. I think that includes keeping track of amp hours. I need to go back and re-read and maybe send them an email with more specific questions. If so, that eliminates the need to purchase a seperate component for counting amp hours as my "fuel gauge".


The designer of the MiniBMS system (Dimitri) posts on this forum quite a bit so you may want to ask him directly about the centralized option. I've exchanged a few emails with him and he's always responded quickly and been very helpful. 

The fuel gauge incorporated into the BMS would be a nice feature for sure. I find it a bit frustrating having to seak out solutions for every component of the conversion, the more integration these systems have the better they are in my opinion. The fact that the Soliton has integrated contactors is one of the main reasons I like it so much. Now if we could just get them to fit a fuse, charger, and dc/dc into that controller box we'd be set.

I'm interested in the eMotorWerks Display because it promises to allow me to adjust my Soliton Jr. settings as well as monitor: battery temp, motor/batter amps, and motor/battery voltage. More then a person really needs but I like the idea of collecting this data.


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## Yukon_Shane (Jul 15, 2010)

Time for a small update and some new pictures I guess. As I mentioned previously I managed to do an initial top balance using a small Chennic charger. It took about 2 weeks and to be honest I'm not entirely sure the back is completely charged (sitting at around 3.35 V) but I think it's close enough to say that the pack is relatively well balance at the top and the mini-BMS should be able to take care of the rest. 

Here's a quick picture of my top balance setup


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## Yukon_Shane (Jul 15, 2010)

This weekend I manged to finish the battery box and get it installed in the car with the batteries. The fit is pretty good but there's still a bit of wiggle room for the cells in the middle of the back. I haven't used any strapping yet but I'm starting to wonder if it wouldn't be a good idea. I'm going to put see if I can't shim the sides and tighten things up a bit. My guess is that once the batteries are all strapped together there really won't be any movement anyway but that might be a poor assumption.


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## Yukon_Shane (Jul 15, 2010)

I've decided to move away from the ceramic heater approach and back to the fluid heater. The ceramic heater design makes alot of sense to me but after monkeying around with two ceramic heaters for a month I'm just not confident in my ability to safely install these under the dash of my car.

For $40 I got his 120V, 2000 amp fluid heater from Amazon.com. At my pack voltage of 160V nominal I'm predicting this heater should put out approximately 3.5 kW which should be plenty. I'll run the fluid through the stock block heater unit using a small 12 volt solar hot water heater which is switch on with the heating element.


The temperature switch on this fluid heater appears to be a simply snap switch which I'm told (by the experts on this board) will likely not servive at DC pack voltage but should be fine at lower 12V dc so I'll wire the switch through the low voltage contactor line. That way if the heater exceed rated temperature it'll shut the heater off through the contactor rather then directly through the switch. 

I have to say I'm suprised at how simple, cheap and easy to work with these little heaters are. just one bolt gave me access to the temperature switch and the connections to the heating element. I was originally concerned that the heater might fry at my pack voltage but taking the heater apart tells me that there really isn't much to fry. About the only thing I can think of is that the element would get too hot in which case the temperature switch would shut the system down. Let me know if I'm missing something here.

Can anyone think of a reason why running a 120V heater coil on 160V DC would be a bad idea?


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## PeterH (Mar 20, 2009)

Nice progress Shane,

I've been fighting with my battery boxes and the support frame for about 2 weeks now. Think I have it under control for the time being. My troubles make me wish I'd have just given up that rear area for one big box like you did!

I loaded my Tracker up the other day with all the batteries and it only sat down on the springs an additional 3/4s of an inch. Was really glad to see that. My boxes sick down about 3.25 inches below the frame rails so I've got to watch my clearance once I get it out of the garage.

Have you tested your suspension with a full load of batteries?

What do you think should be the resting voltage on a fully charged cell? 

I forget what type you bought and I'm still waiting for my charger to show up. My high voltage shut off point will be 3.6 volts/cell. Guess I thought that would be close to the resting voltage until you mentioned this...

Thanks,
Pete


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## PeterH (Mar 20, 2009)

About running those 110 VAC heater elements with 160 VDC. I don't think it will be a problem. In fact, I think that is exactly what is being done with a heater I bought, that will be delivered Saturday, from my local EV parts vender. 

I would just make sure the entire thing is properly fused. I think it might also be a good idea to have a Winter/Summer switch to take the heater and pump out of the circuit IF you are going to try controlling the heater with the normal cabin fan switch and a relay.

I'll be doing that because in the summer I might want to run the fan without turning the heater.

I was going to use my soon-to-be-delivered cabin heater to also heat my battery boxes. But it seems that introduces a lot of other issues. So for the moment, I'm going to warm my battery boxes with a block heater just like you purchased from Amazon. Might even order one today! 

I'll just have it plugged in while my EV is in my unheated garage to keep the batteries warm. Figure that while I'm driving, they will remain warm enough until I get home, or to another source of 110 AC. 

Of course, experience will determine how reliable using a block heater to warm batteries will be. I keep being told that an electrical resistance heater approach will fail within just a few days...

Thanks,
Pete


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## Yabert (Feb 7, 2010)

Yukon_Shane said:


> Can anyone think of a reason why running a 120V heater coil on 160V DC would be a bad idea?


I have done this with my 154v nominal systems and it work well.
With proper circulating pump, the element will never become too hot because it will be continuously cooled from water comming from the cabin radiator.


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## Yukon_Shane (Jul 15, 2010)

Yabert said:


> I have done this with my 154v nominal systems and it work well.
> With proper circulating pump, the element will never become too hot because it will be continuously cooled from water comming from the cabin radiator.


That's what I was hoping to hear. There are a few examples of folks using these heaters at lower voltages but I hadn't seen one yet with a voltage as high as yours. Definately gives me some confidence in my plan.


Thanks Yabert


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## Yukon_Shane (Jul 15, 2010)

PeterH said:


> Nice progress Shane,
> 
> I've been fighting with my battery boxes and the support frame for about 2 weeks now. Think I have it under control for the time being. My troubles make me wish I'd have just given up that rear area for one big box like you did!
> 
> ...


 
Hey Pete,

I've been following your batter box challenges. I'm sure it's a bit frustrating but will likely be really rewarding when you get it figured out. My design is simplier but I think in the end you'll be alot happier not having a battery box in your back seat. I'm already starting to plan an upgrade that would involve finding a bettery location for these cells. 

I've got all the cells sitting in the car now and it really doesn't seem to sag at all. I didn't take measurements but there appears to be plenty of travel left in there rear suspension and the car is sitting with a nice level stance. 

My understaind is that these LiFePO4 cells have a resting voltage of 3.4 V when they are completely full and I think alot of people choose to stop them at a resting voltage below that (I think 3.35 is common). My cells are Winston 100ah cells which have a bit higher maximimum finishing voltage then the Calb's (don't ask me why) of around 3.8V but I'll be stoping mine at 3.6V average (pack voltage of 180V) and the mini-BMS will shut the charger off if any one cell hits 3.8V. 

What I understand about these cells is that they tend to rest closer to 3.2-3.3 volts after either a charge or discharge. For example, if they are running low you might see them dip down to 2.5 volts while you're accelerating but as soon as you take your foot off the gas they'll go back to 3.2V. Similiarly after you charge them up to 3.6 they'll work their way back down to 3.3V.

Don't take these numbers as gospel though, I'm strictly going on what I recall from other posts.


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## Yukon_Shane (Jul 15, 2010)

PeterH said:


> About running those 110 VAC heater elements with 160 VDC. I don't think it will be a problem. In fact, I think that is exactly what is being done with a heater I bought, that will be delivered Saturday, from my local EV parts vender.
> 
> I would just make sure the entire thing is properly fused. I think it might also be a good idea to have a Winter/Summer switch to take the heater and pump out of the circuit IF you are going to try controlling the heater with the normal cabin fan switch and a relay.
> 
> ...


 
I'm finding heating (both battery and cab) to be the most challenging part of this build.

At this point there seems to be very little consensus as to how warm the batteries should be kept or how best to warm them so it'll be a trial and error design for me. Through my day job I've been involve in a bit of research using Vaccuum Insulated Panels (VIP's) for building insulation and I'm thinking I might like to try something like this to insulate the battery box. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vacuum_insulated_panel . The panels we've been using are about 1/4 inch thick and R25 so they seem ideal for something like an automotive application were you don't have alot of space to install insulation.

Unfortunately if you start putting this much insulation in the box you have to start worrying about the batteries overheating which may actually be more of a longterm problem then if they're kept cold. You very quickly start to see a battery box design that's more complicated then the drive system (temperature controlled fans, heaters, ventilation, removable insulation, ....)

There's a poster here, DIYguy, who has put together what looks like a pretty good design for cold conditions http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showthread.php?t=54878 . It'll be interesting to see how this design is holding up and if he's made any revision to the initial design after operating through a few seasons.


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## drgrieve (Apr 14, 2011)

Yukon_Shane said:


> My understaind is that these LiFePO4 cells have a resting voltage of 3.4 V when they are completely full and I think alot of people choose to stop them at a resting voltage below that (I think 3.35 is common).
> 
> My cells are Winston 100ah cells which have a bit higher maximimum finishing voltage then the Calb's (don't ask me why) of around 3.8V but I'll be stoping mine at 3.6V average.
> 
> What I understand about these cells is that they tend to rest closer to 3.2-3.3 volts after either a charge or discharge. For example, if they are running low you might see them dip down to 2.5 volts while you're accelerating but as soon as you take your foot off the gas they'll go back to 3.2V. Similiarly after you charge them up to 3.6 they'll work their way back down to 3.3V.


The first part is correct 3.4 volts is full, but aiming for 3.35 seems a safer bet.

The charging and discharging voltage is a factor of soc, amps, temperature, the battery internal resistance, and connection resistance.

So the voltage sag and the voltage gain is hard to predict accurately, but each person gets a feels for their situation.

Resting voltage can tell you the SOC, but the cell needs to be rested for 12 or more hours. So not useful in a driving scenario.

The important message to take away is to find a charging routine that will after charging and rest the cells are between 3.30 to 3.35. Having the cells voltage gain reach any figure is not important, the resting voltage is.


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## green caveman (Oct 2, 2009)

Tracker Guys (and anyone else): What is supposed to hold the two parts of the engine mount together? That is, what attaches the rubber to the metal part with the screw sticking out shown in the photo? Is it just friction, so the mounts have to have pressure on them at the right angle, or is it cleverer than that - is this just broken? What's the function of the circled tube on the transmission? It would seem to be just a vent, but it's so long since we took this thing apart we've forgotten whether there was ever anything attached to that (plus it probably had a 1/2" of grime on it when we first took it out - there was no silver showing on the transmission, anywhere). The bucket, that is just about the same size as the motor fits (it seems to even clear the front diff - that's good since this is my son's car and he wants 4WD). The motor fits to the transmission (and we can turn the motor by hand and watch the drive shafts move, so it's not binding). Now "all" we have to do is get it together. We do have a slightly easier time with batteries since we have only 33 100Ah cells. We figure ~22 in the back and the remaining 11 ??. Thanks,


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## PeterH (Mar 20, 2009)

Hi there,

Shane, hope you don't mind me responding on your thread to this...

I'll throw in my thoughts... I'm about 90% done with my Tracker build... those darn battery boxes took up about 50% of the effort so far.

That rubber hose coming out of the top of the transmission... as far as I can tell, it is as useful as my appendix. I just cleaned it up and ignored it. I don't think I found anything about it in the shop manual I have for my 1991 Tracker.

Those motor mounts you show are broken. Mine were in the very same shape when I pulled the ICE. I bought replacements from an online source and used them to attach my 11 inch kostov to the vehicle. Of course I had to build my own attachment ring for the kostov.

I'm guessing you've visited my build thread also and have seen where I stashed all 45 of my 130 Ah CALB cells. Do you have a thread started on these forums?

Hope this helps...

Peter H.


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## green caveman (Oct 2, 2009)

PeterH said:


> Shane, hope you don't mind me responding on your thread to this...
> Do you have a thread started on these forums?


I probably should start a thread, I don't want to hijack Shane's but since it's Tracker/Sidekick related, hopefully it'll add useful information in a spot where others will find it.



PeterH said:


> I'll throw in my thoughts... I'm about 90% done with my Tracker build... those darn battery boxes took up about 50% of the effort so far.


This conversions been going on for a while (to put it mildly!). We originally had some Lead Acids. We put those in a classic Subaru 600 "Electravan". We bought them used and ran that for a while, but now we have small Lithium packs for both. (Both still sitting around uninstalled...). LA would have been a real pain to install in the Sidekick.

The town is ~ 8miles edge to edge and the next significant town is 40+ miles away, so any range greater than round-town (so say 30 miles or so) and less than 100 is more or less wasted. So I'm hoping packing the smaller pack will be less trouble.



PeterH said:


> Those motor mounts you show are broken. Mine were in the very same shape when I pulled the ICE. I bought replacements from an online source and used them to attach my 11 inch kostov to the vehicle. Of course I had to build my own attachment ring for the kostov.


Makes me wonder what new mounts would add. The benefit is the rubber, everything else about them is a disadvantage. 

I could line a motor mount ring with similar rubber (at similar angles?) and then just use the existing brackets on the frame as solid mounts. The trick would be to get the same cushioning, but I can't see how that would be too hard (or to critical). Probably a question for the larger group - someone will have experience with that.



PeterH said:


> I'm guessing you've visited my build thread also and have seen where I stashed all 45 of my 130 Ah CALB cells.


Sure, like this one, it's a very cool build. Of course, that the Tracker/Sidekick is itself and interesting vehicle and a good conversion candidate helps.


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## Yukon_Shane (Jul 15, 2010)

Sorry for not responding sooner; I haven't been posting as much as I'd like lately.

No worries about posting these questions here, I think it's totally relevant to the discussion of converting a Tracker and seeing as the three of us seem to be the only one's doing so we should stick together.

Unfortunately I can't help you with the motor mount questions. Like Peter, I found that the front of the motor was running into the steering arm so I raised the motor up above the steering components, moved the whole drivetrain forward and built a custom mount on the front of the motor and mounted to the front crossmember. 

The front of the motor is essentially rigid mounted now; however, the bolts run parrellel to the bumper so the motor can still move up and down freely if it has to. I'm not explaining this very well so I'll try and find a good picture.

Like Peter I'm not 100% finished yet and my car hasn't seen much road time (I took it around the block a few times last week but that's it) so I can't say with confidence that this approach is the best but it seems to be working well so far.


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## PeterH (Mar 20, 2009)

Hey, I'm just glad to hear you got it out and around the block a few times! Congrats!! 

I'm hoping to have a charger in my hands tomorrow evening which will fuel a major build push over the weekend. I suspect I'm still a month away from even backing it out of the garage!

Pete


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## green caveman (Oct 2, 2009)

Yukon_Shane said:


> Unfortunately I can't help you with the motor mount questions. [...]. I'm not explaining this very well so I'll try and find a good picture.


If I can see correctly in the picture, you didn't use the old engine mount points at all.



Yukon_Shane said:


> Like Peter I'm not 100% finished yet and my car hasn't seen much road time (I took it around the block a few times last week but that's it) so I can't say with confidence that this approach is the best but it seems to be working well so far.


Around the block is still pretty good. Of course, as with any project, the first 90% of the project takes the first 90% of the time and the final 10% takes the second 90% of the time.


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## Yukon_Shane (Jul 15, 2010)

PeterH said:


> Hey, I'm just glad to hear you got it out and around the block a few times! Congrats!!
> 
> I'm hoping to have a charger in my hands tomorrow evening which will fuel a major build push over the weekend. I suspect I'm still a month away from even backing it out of the garage!
> 
> Pete


It was pretty awesome. My first lap I had the controller set to 100 battery Amps max which was fairly slugish but once I cranked it up to 300 amps it was everything I'd hopped for as far as performance goes. I true test will be running it up a couple of the big heals around here.

I still have to: get the EMotorWerks Display up and running so that I can actual monitor what's going on with the battery pack; arrange a better hold down set-up for the batteries: and of course the heating system...I guess it never ends.

I can't wait to do more testing but my 6 week old little girl is taking up the bulk of my free time these days so it may be awhile.


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## Yukon_Shane (Jul 15, 2010)

green caveman said:


> If I can see correctly in the picture, you didn't use the old engine mount points at all.
> 
> 
> 
> Around the block is still pretty good. Of course, as with any project, the first 90% of the project takes the first 90% of the time and the final 10% takes the second 90% of the time.


That's right, I avoided using the old engine mount points they just didn't seem to be lining up right for my setup and I figured that the front mount I made along with the transmission mount would be plenty support. That being said I still wonder if I'll regret not using the original motor mounts in the future. I've seen some veteran posters here warn that this type of solid mounting can cause vibration and possible wear. I'll keep a close eye on the whole setup and post back on how it's working. 

I don't know when a person would every say they "finished" a project like this. I haven't even gotten to the point were I'm comfortable taking the car to work and I'm already planning my next battery upgrade. Still the trip around the block was pretty great.


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## green caveman (Oct 2, 2009)

Yukon_Shane said:


> It was pretty awesome. My first lap I had the controller set to 100 battery Amps max which was fairly slugish but once I cranked it up to 300 amps it was everything I'd hopped for as far as performance goes. I true test will be running it up a couple of the big heals around here.


That's pretty interesting. The Electravan which, with 1000lbs of lead acid weight a little more than a lithium Sidekick would take about 100A (104V nominal) accelerating on the flat or up a slight/reasonable grade and would go to 200A on a serious grade or if you floored it. 300A @150V seems like quite a lot of juice.



Yukon_Shane said:


> I still have to: get the EMotorWerks Display up and running so that I can actual monitor what's going on with the battery pack; arrange a better hold down set-up for the batteries: and of course the heating system...I guess it never ends.


We're working on the digital BMS . The small, scale bench top version seems to work. 



Yukon_Shane said:


> I can't wait to do more testing but my 6 week old little girl is taking up the bulk of my free time these days so it may be awhile.


Don't worry, it really is amazing how fast it goes from 6 weeks old to wanting the keys to the car. By then maybe we'll have ultra caps and high speed charging stations in place of gas station.


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## Yukon_Shane (Jul 15, 2010)

green caveman said:


> That's pretty interesting. The Electravan which, with 1000lbs of lead acid weight a little more than a lithium Sidekick would take about 100A (104V nominal) accelerating on the flat or up a slight/reasonable grade and would go to 200A on a serious grade or if you floored it. 300A @150V seems like quite a lot


That's good to know, I don't have a frame of reference to draw from and assumed it was the battery amps that was resulting in the sluggish performance but I also reset the max power of the controller without having a good idea of what exactly it should be but it seemed low (if I recall it was around 30kw). I think I pushed it up to 70 kw so I probably have a bit of room to push it up further. I think as long as it's below 100kw I should be fine.

Thanks!


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## PeterH (Mar 20, 2009)

Hi Shane,

Are you protecting your motor from the road environment in any way?

For example, anything to keep it dry or to keep dust, or road grit out of the motor?

I'm hoping to be on the road within a month and starting to think about such things...

Thanks,
Pete


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## green caveman (Oct 2, 2009)

PeterH said:


> Are you protecting your motor from the road environment in any way?
> 
> For example, anything to keep it dry or to keep dust, or road grit out of the motor?


The little van doesn't have anything between its motor and the road. I'm not at all sure this is a good thing. It has survived 7000km in this mode, but this is in New Mexico where it really doesn't rain. The motor has a few dings in the vents, but other than that (and the label being worn off) it seems OK. That said, I would like to protect it.

There are aerodynamic advantages to a covering the underside of the car in addition to the protection it provides. I'm hoping that one of the up-and-coming BMS/Arduino solutions will provide enough information to measure how much is actually gained.

Turns out the terminals for the motor in our conversion are on the bottom. I'm sure that when we designed the plate that wasn't the intention, but I think we can deal with it, but, it does mean we need to make sure that the motor and the terminal clear the steerage linkage (it still looks as though the transmission is in about the right place).


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## Yukon_Shane (Jul 15, 2010)

PeterH said:


> Hi Shane,
> 
> Are you protecting your motor from the road environment in any way?
> 
> ...


I haven't incorporated any protection yet but I am thinking about adding some sort of skid/dust plat. Trackers being kind of being popular with the 4X4 crowd makes me wonder if a guy couldn't find an aftermarket skid plate that you could just bolt on but I haven't really looke for one yet.

One of thre reasons I moved the engine/transmission forward so much was actually so that I could raise the motor up and away from the road a bit more then the stock transmission location would allow. Unfortunately the only way to move the assembly up was to move the transmission forward so that the bell housing cleared the fire wall. Which all seemed fine until it came time to install the shifter and I realized it was almost under the dash... I made it work but it was a bit tricky and I'm not sure it was worth the 6 inches of extra distance I got between the engine and the road. 

Plus Caveman's right, there are good aerodynamic reasons to install a skid plate.


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## Yukon_Shane (Jul 15, 2010)

quick update:

I took the beast out for another run this weekend and it was awesome! I cranked the battery amps up to 400 amps (4C), kept motor amps at 600 amps and crancked the max power up to 100 kW (which I'm realizing is ridiciouly optomistic for this setup).

The car ran really well, it was quick without being jerky and kept up with traffic nicely. 

I stayed away from the highway or any major hills so I really haven't given the car a hard test run yet but soon. I want to make sure the my EMW display is installed before I get too crazy. Unfortunately I've had a bit of trouble tracking down a proper copper bar to run the hall effect through so that I can install the display. The stupidest things slow me down...I've finally order own from a seller on ebay so hopefully it will arrive soon.

In the mean time I'll try and post some of my data from my second run. Nothing earth shattering but it's kind of interesting to look at.

Shane


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## Yukon_Shane (Jul 15, 2010)

I'm trying to post this picture in the thread so lets see if it works...


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## dladd (Jun 1, 2011)

Yukon_Shane said:


> Unfortunately I've had a bit of trouble tracking down a proper copper bar to run the hall effect through so that I can install the display. The stupidest things slow me down...I've finally order own from a seller on ebay so hopefully it will arrive soon.


i'll be interested in seeing the bar you use and how you mount it, and how you mount the sender unit to the bar! I went with the one supplied with the kit, but ended up having to add a few extra connections in the battery loop to get it installed.


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## Yukon_Shane (Jul 15, 2010)

I guess that didn't work, I'll have to just attach the images (if anyone knows how to insert images into a post I'd love to know)

The first is pack current and motor current and the second is pack voltage and motor voltage.

It's interesting to see the relationship between pack and motor voltage and current in this way and gives me a much better understanding of how my controller works. 

At times the motor current is fairly high while the pack current has barely moved (3rd gear start I suspect) and other times the pack current is close to 400 and you can see that it's limiting the current to the motor and stoping it from reaching it's maximum setpoint of 600 amps. 

similiarly I find the voltage relationship between motor and pack really interesting. you can see the point when i've really started to step on it and the pack voltage starts to match the motor voltage. Under serious load I'm guessing my 160V pack is really more like a 120-130V.


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## PeterH (Mar 20, 2009)

Very interesting data Shane! How did you capture the data?

I've been thinking about doing more on the underside to protect the motor and to add some aerodynamic improvements. With my battery boxes hanging down in the wind, I've added drag that wasn't there before.

About mounting the hall effect sensor. I think have the same little board and I ran two copper bolts thru the ends of the copper bar that came with it, added two smaller bolts to the holes in the board, and sat all four bolt heads in a shallow bowl I made from aluminum foil. I placed a piece of rubber in the bottom of the aluminum foil form to ensure proper insulation just in case the bold heads weren't covered properly. Then poured some hobby resin in the bowl to cover the bolt heads but not touch the board. In less than 15 minutes it was set up just perfectly. You can almost see what I did in this pic:











I did the same with a 2 x 4 electrical box I'm using as a junction box for the 3 wire 240 VAC lines between the charger and the J1772 plug way back in the former fuel tank access door.










Really like that resin idea!

Pete


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## Yukon_Shane (Jul 15, 2010)

dladd said:


> i'll be interested in seeing the bar you use and how you mount it, and how you mount the sender unit to the bar! I went with the one supplied with the kit, but ended up having to add a few extra connections in the battery loop to get it installed.


I'm kicking myself for not just ordering the bar that comes with the kit. I'm not sure what I was thinking.

I don't have the mounting completely figured out yet but I have a feeling it'll be a bit of a challenge to keep the sender unit in the battery box. The 100 ah cells I'm using are so small that the battery box is fairly cramped with wires and bus bars. Another good reason to go with 180 AH cells I guess.


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## Yukon_Shane (Jul 15, 2010)

PeterH said:


> Very interesting data Shane! How did you capture the data?
> 
> I've been thinking about doing more on the underside to protect the motor and to add some aerodynamic improvements. With my battery boxes hanging down in the wind, I've added drag that wasn't there before.
> 
> ...


Now that's the way to mount electronics! very clean.

This is really what I should have done with alot of my component mounting (BMS head end board, heating system contactor, fuses, dc/dc inductor, etc.)

I'll have to look at reworking some of these components and incorporating this strategy.

thanks Pete


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## Yukon_Shane (Jul 15, 2010)

PeterH said:


> Very interesting data Shane! How did you capture the data?


 
I just realized you also asked how I collected the data. I used the evnetics datalogger program that works with my soliton jr . It's really simple and works well. You just have to be carefull you don't leave it on too long or you'll end up with way more data then you ever wanted.


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## PeterH (Mar 20, 2009)

That is good to know. I'm all about instrumentation and data... when it blows up, I'll want to know exactly why! 

I will have two systems to monitor and track amp hours... bought that 404 meter from EVTV just last week.

I went to the evnetics site but they don't list a data logger app as a product... thought you might be using something from Electric Motor Werks... they have an android app for something similar.

Off to the junk yard in a few... found an bought a new (1989) dash board with solid vents that will replace my build's busted up vents. I have two rigs to pull parts from and both had busted up vents in the dash... 

Also about to buy a set of new 'low rolling resistance' tires for summer. Never got to use those new snow tires I have on the rig presently... but I expect to next Winter!

Thanks,
Pete


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## green caveman (Oct 2, 2009)

PeterH said:


> Also about to buy a set of new 'low rolling resistance' tires for summer. Never got to use those new snow tires I have on the rig presently... but I expect to next Winter!


I put some LLR tires on the 2000 (gas) Tracker. I have no really feeling for whether they made a difference to the gas mileage because I didn't run it long enough with the old tires, but the handled really well in snow - especially with the 4WD.

Mind you, I also put some AT tires on the big old Dodge van because it desperately needed better traction than the old "all seasons" provided in snow. The mileage improved when I did that. Snow tires on the front knocked 10% off the mpg. So I've concluded that tire tech is sophisticated enough that I don't really understand it.


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## PeterH (Mar 20, 2009)

Hi Shane,

Question, do you have the output side of your DC/DC converter grounded?  On my DC/DC converter, there is a grounding point that I had attached to the vehicle frame.

Tonight I thought I had everything connected up correctly and added the aux battery to the system. Soon as I did so, it was clear that something was shorted to ground.

The first thing I tried was disconnecting the DC/DC ground connection and this turned out to be the source of the short.

I think I have everthing else wired up correctly. I'll be adding the batteries in the next day or so after I've double checked everything else. I'm using a J1772 connection and the GE Watt Station as my power source. Got that all connected tonight.

Thanks,
Pete


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## Yukon_Shane (Jul 15, 2010)

PeterH said:


> Hi Shane,
> 
> Question, do you have the output side of your DC/DC converter grounded?  On my DC/DC converter, there is a grounding point that I had attached to the vehicle frame.
> 
> ...


Funny that you mention this because I was just thinking about that grounding point. Short answer is I do have a dc/dc grounding point that I grounded to the vehicles 12v negative (the vehicle chassis). I didn't get an obvious short to ground however I am having some intermittent problems with my bms that are likely caused by leakage from the battery pack to the chassis and I'm wondering if this isn't the cause.

The grounding point I'm thinking of was clearly attached to the chassis of the dc/dc so it just makes since to ground it doesn't it? If it's causing a short wouldn't that mean that there is a short within the dc/dc?

I'll disconnect this ground and see I my problem goes away.

Thanks for the info


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## Yukon_Shane (Jul 15, 2010)

I just read through the iota owners installation manual and it clearly states that the chassis bonding lug should be connected to the vehicle chassis so I guess that isn't the cause of my problem. 

Strange that they wouldn't just connect the 12v negative terminal to the dc/dc chassis and avoid this step?

Pete, maybe check and see if there is any voltage between the body of your dc/dc and the chassis of your car. If there is this might be a sign that there's a short in your dc/dc (and you might be risking a shock)


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## PeterH (Mar 20, 2009)

Yukon_Shane said:


> I just read through the iota owners installation manual and it clearly states that the chassis bonding lug should be connected to the vehicle chassis so I guess that isn't the cause of my problem.
> 
> Strange that they wouldn't just connect the 12v negative terminal to the dc/dc chassis and avoid this step?
> 
> Pete, maybe check and see if there is any voltage between the body of your dc/dc and the chassis of your car. If there is this might be a sign that there's a short in your dc/dc (and you might be risking a shock)


Hi Shane,

Later today I'll go out and disconnect the negative ground from the battery and then reconnect the positive between the battery and the DC/DC. Then I'll measure to see where I have a voltage differential between the battery negative and the DC/DC.

The chasis of the DC/DC is in direct contact with the aluminum shelf on which everything sits and of course that shelf is in contact with the vehicle frame so it is connected to the battery negative via. the frame. So I expect to see 13 volts between battery positive and the DC/DC chasis. I just don't think I should see 13 volts between battery positive and either of the output terminals on the DC/DC.

I would expect, under normal conditions, that the positive and negative terminals from the DC/DC would NOT be connected to ground. But given what I observed last night, it suggests that there is a connection between the positive output on the DC/DC and ground. Now, is that due to damage of some sort or is that normal? Doesn't sound normal to me, but I'm not an electrical engineer... I just pretend to be one when I'm working on my EV. 

I'll let you know what I find and what I hear from my vendor when he replies to a query I sent. 

Thanks,
Pete


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## PeterH (Mar 20, 2009)

Hi Shane,

I spoke to my vendor for the DC/DC. He had to call his contact to get the details but called me back to say I shouldn't connect the ground lug on the DC/DC to the vehicle. I've disconnected it, reconnected the positive and negative outputs to the battery and all seems to be as it should. 

I haven't applied power to the converter yet because I still haven't installed the main battery pack. I'm just wrapping up details in the instrumentation and then the dash before I start installing all 45 cells.

Meanwhile, you are using the Soliton Jr. right? What settings for pulses per minute did you use from the Soliton to the factory tach? I was just reading about that in the Soliton manual. 

Thanks,
Pete


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## Yukon_Shane (Jul 15, 2010)

PeterH said:


> Hi Shane,
> 
> I spoke to my vendor for the DC/DC. He had to call his contact to get the details but called me back to say I shouldn't connect the ground lug on the DC/DC to the vehicle. I've disconnected it, reconnected the positive and negative outputs to the battery and all seems to be as it should.
> 
> ...



Okay, that's really good to know. I'll disconnect mine as well and see if it makes the difference.

I am using the soliton jr. I used 2 pulses per revolution for the stock tachometer and it's working perfectly. 

The tach signal will be the brown wire on the right side of the instrument cluster. Just connect that wire to one of the soliton outputs and you're good to go.


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## green caveman (Oct 2, 2009)

PeterH said:


> I spoke to my vendor for the DC/DC. He had to call his contact to get the details but called me back to say I shouldn't connect the ground lug on the DC/DC to the vehicle. I've disconnected it, reconnected the positive and negative outputs to the battery and all seems to be as it should.


I find this a little disconcerting. If you can't ground the case, what is the voltage on the case of the DC/DC? The possibility exists that there's significant voltage (like the pack voltage) on the case which could potentially be fatal.

I would expect the case to be at the same potential as the negative side of the 12V output and that these would be connected to the car. The high voltage input should be isolated from both the car and the 12V output.


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## PeterH (Mar 20, 2009)

green caveman said:


> I find this a little disconcerting. If you can't ground the case, what is the voltage on the case of the DC/DC? The possibility exists that there's significant voltage (like the pack voltage) on the case which could potentially be fatal.
> 
> I would expect the case to be at the same potential as the negative side of the 12V output and that these would be connected to the car. The high voltage input should be isolated from both the car and the 12V output.


In this case, the chassis of the DC/DC is at the same potential as the battery negative... it is in direct contact with vehicle ground.

I've removed the ground connection between the DC/DC ground lug and the vehicle frame and now there is no current flow between the battery and the DC/DC in its current, unpowered condition.

So it seems that the DC output terminals on the DC/DC are isolated from the chassis of the DC/DC. I've been told that the output side is isolated from the input side as well. But just to be sure, I'll get out my meter and check things out. And I just remembered that I left the aux battery connected to the vehicle last night... so I'll know shortly if there is a drain on the battery or not! 

Pete

Pete


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## green caveman (Oct 2, 2009)

Now I'm confused...



PeterH said:


> In this case, the chassis of the DC/DC is at the same potential as the battery negative... it is in direct contact with vehicle ground.
> 
> I've removed the ground connection between the DC/DC ground lug and the vehicle frame and now there is no current flow between the battery and the DC/DC in its current, unpowered condition.


I'd assumed that the "ground" lug would be connected to the case of the DC/DC - that's certainly what I'd want attached to the vehicle ground.

If there's a potential between the "ground" lug and the vehicle "ground" what's the maximum potential and how do you protect yourself against it?


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## PeterH (Mar 20, 2009)

green caveman said:


> Now I'm confused...
> 
> 
> > Maybe I mis-spoke. Here are some more details. In the pic below, you can see the output side of the converter.
> ...


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## green caveman (Oct 2, 2009)

PeterH said:


> I also checked the potiential between the ground lug that I've pointed to in the pic and the chassis of the converter and the vehicle ground. In both cases, zero potential.


From the picture it looks as though the ground lug is just connected to the DC/DC chassis. Is this right or is the 'L' shaped piece an insulator?



PeterH said:


> When I connected the ground lug shown above, to vehicle ground, it created a closed circuit and an unknown amount of current was flowing through the grounding lug to vehicle ground.


See, that doesn't tally with the statement above. If there's no voltage between the ground lug and the vehicle ground, then you can't have a current flow - however small.

My concern is that either the ground lug is defined to be at the vehicle ground and so can be connected to the vehicle ground, or it's not - which is basically what the vendor told you.

If it's not at the vehicle ground potential, then what potential could it ever possibly be at and how likely is that potential to kill you if you touch it? If the answer is that the potential of the ground lug is undefined, then that means potentially lethal voltage. If the ground lug is directly connected to the pack (eg the pack negative) then it's potentially lethal.

I suspect that there's something I really don't understand here and am probably overreacting, but to me there's something really strange about a "ground lug" that cannot be attached to ground.


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## Yukon_Shane (Jul 15, 2010)

I have to agree with Green_caveman that something strange seems to be going on. 

If the voltage between the chassis of the Dc/Dc and the battery negative is zero and the grounding lug is connected to the chassis of the Dc/Dc then there shouldn't be a flow of current when you connect the grounding lug to the vehicle chassis.


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## Yukon_Shane (Jul 15, 2010)

DC/DC converter bonding lug closure:

Based on PeteH and Tesseract's advice I disconnected the DC/DC converters bonding lug from the vehicle chassis this weekend and took the car for a long test drive. I can't say definitively but it seems as though this simple change has eliminated an intermittent pack ground leak that was causing my mini-bms to give a false alarm when I stepped on the throttle.

Again, I can't say that this was the problem for certain as it was very intermittent and hard to track down but I didn't get a single alarm on my test run despite putting the car through it's toughest performance test to date.

Thanks to both Pete and Tesseract for their help with this. I don't think I ever would have thought to disconnect that lug on my own.


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## Yukon_Shane (Jul 15, 2010)

Just a quick update to say that the car seems to be running very well. I'm really impressed with the performance of the car which was something I was a little bit worried about. At 160 V and 400 battery amps max I really wasn't sure that this car was going to keep up with the other vehicles on the road; however, at this point I have to say that it feels faster then my ICE VW Golf 2.0L which is really great. Plus I'm becoming more comfortable with the idea of raising the maximum battery current up to 500 amps which should give me a significant improvement in performance.

I haven't been brave enough to take it up one of the larger hills around here yet so that will be the true test but for right now I'm really happy with performance.

Now I just have to get it registered and insured...should be interesting. The first step is a mechanical inspection which I think might be a bit of a challenge.

Lot's of little things still to do (cab heater, battery heater, etc.) plus I'm already starting to see things that will have to be changed (why did I think solid mouting the engine to the chassis would be a good idea?) so I'm sure, like many of you, this is really just the beginning.


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## Caps18 (Jun 8, 2008)

Yukon_Shane said:


> (why did I think solid mouting the engine to the chassis would be a good idea?) so I'm sure, like many of you, this is really just the beginning.


Is there something wrong with solid mounting the motor to the frame? I thought this was the common thing to do because the rubber mounts couldn't handle the torque?


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## PeterH (Mar 20, 2009)

Caps18 said:


> Is there something wrong with solid mounting the motor to the frame? I thought this was the common thing to do because the rubber mounts couldn't handle the torque?


I'm hoping the rubber mounts will handle the torgue... I employed a fresh set of factory style motor mounts in my build. I'm still a few weeks away from a real road test yet so I can't say for sure if they will hold or not.

New Question:

Shane, do you watch EVTV? This week Jack was discussing the need to place a diode on the input side of the DC/DC to prevent damage to the capacitors in the converter. I've already added a large inductor to the input and now I'm wondering if a diode wouldn't also be helpful. I'd like to keep this same DC/DC working until Evnetics comes out with their new purpose built DC/DC converter.

Also, are you driving your old fuel gauge? I don't recall what instrumentation you included in your build. I've been working on mine for the past few days and was trying to figure out what wire connected to the fuel gauge. The shop manuals I have, really aren't much help. Frankly, I don't understand the wiring diagrams as much as I think I should. 

You drive a Golf? Odd... so do I... but I have the 2003 TDI model.  It sure would be nice to have as much pep in my EV as my Golf does! 

Thanks,
Pete


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## Yukon_Shane (Jul 15, 2010)

Caps18 said:


> Is there something wrong with solid mounting the motor to the frame? I thought this was the common thing to do because the rubber mounts couldn't handle the torque?


The consensus on this seems to have shifted a bit. When I first started my build I was lead to believe that an electric motor has so little vibration that there was no need to use the stock motor rubber mounts. Sense that time though it seems to have become common practice to use the rubber mounts were possible for both sound and vibration isolation and reduced wear and tear.

I can say that, while my electric motor is very quiet, my transmission is not. It's not really that bad but I can certain feel some vibration coming through the frame as I start to come up to speed. 

Again, not the end of the world but if I was to do it again I would use the stock motor mounts.


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## Yukon_Shane (Jul 15, 2010)

PeterH said:


> I'm hoping the rubber mounts will handle the torgue... I employed a fresh set of factory style motor mounts in my build. I'm still a few weeks away from a real road test yet so I can't say for sure if they will hold or not.
> 
> New Question:
> 
> ...


 
Hey Pete,

I do watch EVTV and did see Jack's discussion on using a diode. Tesseract did address this idea (proposed by someone else on the forum) in one of the discussions on ways in which to make a dc/dc more robust. Unfortunately I can't find the actual post (Tesseract has posted on this several times in several different place which is probably half the reason he's working on a dc/dc now) but if I recall correctly the gist of his response was that the diode would only block the ripple effect in one direction so, while a diode would help, the inductor was a much better approach to providing protection for the dc/dc. 

No offence intended to Jack or EVTV but I'm not sure he's seeing the whole picture when it comes to trying to maintain power quality to a dc/dc which was designed/intended to be used with relatively high quality AC power at a non frequency. The more I read about this topic the more convinced I am that we shouldn't be using these devices in our cars. 

After driving my ev tracker around a bit I have no doubt that your conversion will outperform your TDI from a power perspective. You're Calb battery pack is significantly better then my thundersky pack and you shouldn't have any problem maxing out the controller setting of 600 battery amps which will mean approximately 50% more power then I'm seeing in my current setup.

keep us posted but I think you're going to be impressed. The question is, will you want to upgrade to a Soliton 1


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## Yukon_Shane (Jul 15, 2010)

Here's a few pics of my EMW EV Dashboard sensor board installation. I couldn't get a standard bus bar to work because the 100Ah batteries are relatively small and don't have alot of space between posts. I wanted to keep the sensor board close to the batteries though so that the temperature sensor would be accurate so I built a raised copper busbar out of cut copper bar. It seems to work pretty good so far. 

I've been driving the car to work for the past week without any hassles. Now if I can just figure out that speedo...


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## PeterH (Mar 20, 2009)

Hi Shane, 

Nice adaptation! Do you cover the batteries with anything between the box lid and the tops of the cells? I bought some thin rubber material for this project that I've cut to size and lay over the cells just to help ensure no accidental contact with the aluminum lids or tools if I happen to have the lids off for some reason.

Now that you've been driving for a while, do you have any feel for your "normal" range between charges? People keep asking me and I keep guessing 60 to 70 miles at less than highway speeds.

My replacement Soliton Jr. just showed up yesterday and it is now back in place. I'd fire it up, but I've got the entire body ready for a paint job... which is being delayed by all this wet weather we've been having. 

Guess I need to take some photos and update my build thread. 

Pete


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## Yukon_Shane (Jul 15, 2010)

PeterH said:


> Hi Shane,
> 
> Nice adaptation! Do you cover the batteries with anything between the box lid and the tops of the cells? I bought some thin rubber material for this project that I've cut to size and lay over the cells just to help ensure no accidental contact with the aluminum lids or tools if I happen to have the lids off for some reason.
> 
> ...


Hey Pete,

Ya it'd be great to see some new pictures of your conversion (there are some things I'd like to copy).

I have a Lexan cover for the box and have been using a large piece of rubber matting to cover the cells when I was working on them.

I've got a sense for range in my application but yours might differ. I have an 8.5 km (5 mile) commute to work that involves about 5 km (2 miles) on the highway and a fairly large hill. On the way to work (downhill) I us almost exactly 10 amphours of capacity or 1.6 kWh and on the way back (up hill) it's closer to 13 amphours or 2.1 kWh. So that averages out to be about 220 watthours/km or 370 watthours/mile.

Again that includes a fair amount of high speed highway driving and a pretty big hill (about 7% grade for just over 1 mile). I would expect more mild conditions to deliver somewhere around 350 watt hours/mile. So my range with a 16 kWh pack works out to be somewhere around 40-50 miles. 

It's also worth noting that I haven't ammended my driving style to facilitate better "fuel" economy. If anything I've been driving the car a bit harder then I usually would so that I can see what it can do. The car can merge onto the highways quicker then my golf and keeps up with traffic up hills without a problem. I do ocasssionally pull over 400 battery amps climbing big hills at highways speed but it's usually only for a few seconds.

I found the pedal to be a bit spongy off the start so I recalibarted the throttle to give me 60% power at 50% pedal which I think made for a nicer ride but that's really a matter of personal preference. I also uped the slew rate slightly from the default settings but not much (can't remember the new settings off the top of my head).

Again, the car has plenty of power. If anything I think I'll be working on upgrading the suspension, steering and possibly drivetrain to better handly what the batteries, motor and controller can put out.


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## PeterH (Mar 20, 2009)

Hi Shane,

Thanks for the info on your range estimates. I'm figuring that I'll have about 14.9 KWh of usable capacity. That is 80% of the rated capacity of 18720 watts (144 VDC times 130 Amp Hours).

Based on your figure of around 350 watt hours per mile, it puts my range at only around 42 miles. I'm hoping my actual consuption will be lower for a number of reasons. Such as, I won't be doing much highway driving if I don't want to. I can get to town easily on side roads with a max speed of 45 MPH. This is also a 2 wheel drive version so I'm hoping less resistance in the driveline will help lower consuption rates. I also don't have the hills you seem to have unless I want to drive up to the ski resort... which by the way, is getting snow right now... yes, June 6th and it is snowing within 10 miles of my house!!

Oh I also purchased low rolling resistance tires for this EV. 

I just wired up the controller and the BMS. Of course the BMS is still throwing an audible error because one monitoring circuit on the top board isn't working properly. I have a stack of 3 of the centralized mini-BMS boards and the top one has the problem. I'm thinking I might go without the BMS for a while so I can at least test the rest of the system out (once it stops raining!).

About suspension. I lost 2 inches of clearance with my battery boxes beneath the seats. I'm thinking of coughing up $700 for a CALMINI 2 inch lift kit (http://www.jeep4x4center.com/suzuki-sidekick-lift-kits/calmini/2-2.5inch-lift-kits.htm) to regain some of that clearance. But think I'll wait till after my first drive. 

Soon as it stops raining, I'll roll her out and take some pics of the "before" the paint job. Staying with the factory blue color... just to make it easy.

I'll be happy to share any details on what I did with this build that you'd like to do on yours. Even the mistakes! 

Pete


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## z_power (Dec 17, 2011)

On topic of covering batteries... Rubber sometimes contains a lot of coal so it's resistance is to low to consider it insulation. "Mylar" is the keyword to look for if you need isolating sheets like those on top of battery packs.


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## Yukon_Shane (Jul 15, 2010)

z_power said:


> On topic of covering batteries... Rubber sometimes contains a lot of coal so it's resistance is to low to consider it insulation. "Mylar" is the keyword to look for if you need isolating sheets like those on top of battery packs.


I had no idea. Thanks z


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## PeterH (Mar 20, 2009)

Hi Shane!

Just drove my Tracker around the pasture for the first time! It stopped raining last night and this morning I got the Soliton Jr. to cooperate with my initial set up attempts.

BIG QUESTION! 

Seems my motor (Kostov 11) is is turning the wrong direction... reverse makes me move forward and first thru fifth makes me go backwards. Haven't told the wife... don't need her laughing so hard that she hurts herself.

Meanwhile, in your build, did you have to set up your motor so it turns in the direction opposite from 'normal'? I think I read somewhere that Honda's require the motor to turn in the opposite direction from most other cars. Hadn't heard that about these vehicles. So maybe my motor is set up like that from the factory... 

Now that I've got maybe 5 hours on the brushes, wonder if they need to be changed out and if they are angled for a specific direction or not.

Soooo Close!!! 

Thanks,
Pete


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## Yukon_Shane (Jul 15, 2010)

PeterH said:


> Hi Shane!
> 
> Just drove my Tracker around the pasture for the first time! It stopped raining last night and this morning I got the Soliton Jr. to cooperate with my initial set up attempts.
> 
> ...


Hey Pete,

must be frustrating to be so close. You're line about not telling your wife made me laugh pretty hard.

I didn't have to do anything special with my motor to make it go the right direction. It makes me wonder if your motor isn't connected in reverse but I really don't know much about the Kostov motors.

I doubt you'd need to replace your brushes but, if it is connected backwards, you might want to hold off putting alot of amps into it. If it's advanced like the Warp motors you really don't want to run it to hard backwards. 

That being said, if I remember correctly the Kostov's have interpoles so it may not be such a big deal....

sorry I couldn't offer more help with this.


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## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

PeterH said:


> ...
> Seems my motor (Kostov 11) is is turning the wrong direction... reverse makes me move forward and first thru fifth makes me go backwards. Haven't told the wife... don't need her laughing so hard that she hurts herself.


All you need to do is move the jumper that connects the armature and field over to the other field terminal (or the other armature terminal - take your pick). For example, if the jumper connects A1 to S1 then then move it to S2 (and the cable that was originally connected to S2 goes over to S1). Voilla, reversed.

Kostov motors spin fine in either direction. Break-in the brushes in the new direction for an hour or two (the idle function is ideal for this).


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## PeterH (Mar 20, 2009)

Thanks guys... I just completed reconfiguring the motor connections for counter-clockwise rotation. It was configured for clockwise as viewed from the shaft end of the motor. 

I'll test it tomorrow IF it stops raining!

Pete


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## Yukon_Shane (Jul 15, 2010)

Just an update on my "mileage". 

This is week three of driving my EV to work and I decided I'd try a different route to see what, if any, effect there might be on my Wh/mile rating; it was dramatic.

My usually route (lets call it route 1) involves a fairly lengthy highway run followed by a short bit of city driving. The alternative route (route 2) is actually a bit shorter in distance but involves a much more significant amount of city driving (I essentially have to drive through the entire city I live in which isn't very large but still) the upshot is that I don't have to drive on the highway nearly as long. 

I've always assumed that route 1 would be better for mileage because it's a long straight run without much stop and go. Was I wrong!

Trading highway miles for city miles has resulted in an increased efficiency of around 22%. I went from an average of about 350 Wh/mile to close to 270 Wh/mile.

lessons for me: 

EV's excel in stop and go traffic
Air resistance at highway speed is huge
EV owners quoted Wh/mile ratings are kind of meaningless (my vehicle went from being mediocre to pretty darn good just based on a route change)
Some of my thinking as to why this may be more significant for my situation then others:

despite being light my vehicle (geo tracker) is actually fairly tall and has a pretty large front surface area which means it's probably more effected by air resistance then other vehicles might be
The highway I use runs north to south which is the direction that is strongly influenced by the prevailing wind.
"city" driving in my small town is actually fairly smooth sailing (not that many lights, etc.).


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## PeterH (Mar 20, 2009)

Hi Shane,

Thnaks for posting the very encouraging data! Painted my Tracker 3 days ago and had a new windshield installed yesterday... putting all the body pieces back together now. So far, I seem to still have all the bits laying around. Between my Tracker, my Sidekick and another Tracker in a salvage yard, I'm. Hoping to a very nice, fully fuctional EV very soon!

Based on your data, I'll use the back roads to get to town.

Met another guy at our local EV club meeting who wants to test my EV's ability to drive 10 miles up the mountain road where he lives. Guessing it will be a slow drive with my eyes glued to the amp meter!

Pete


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## Yukon_Shane (Jul 15, 2010)

PeterH said:


> Hi Shane,
> 
> Thnaks for posting the very encouraging data! Painted my Tracker 3 days ago and had a new windshield installed yesterday... putting all the body pieces back together now. So far, I seem to still have all the bits laying around. Between my Tracker, my Sidekick and another Tracker in a salvage yard, I'm. Hoping to a very nice, fully fuctional EV very soon!
> 
> ...


It sounds like you're doing it right. I'm regretting not spending more time on the body and general drivetrain upgrade of the tracker before starting to drive it. I'm finding the driveline is pretty sloppy which is annoying and the soft top is just a pain in the butt. I did manage to trackdown a hardtop at the local wrecking yard but it's far from pristine.

I think you'll be suprised at how well your car climbs. I rarely have to exceed 300 amps while climbing some pretty serious hills at highway speed and you've got a bigger battery pack then I do.

Where the tracker has so far under performed for me is in it's poor cornering. I wasn't expecting a porsche or anything but it's got alot of body role and the manual steering is a bit sloppy. I think some smaller/better tires and some suspension repair/upgrades will probably help with this.

I think the next year or so will be focused on making the vehicle drive and look a bit nicer because the electric drive seems to be working really well.


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## PeterH (Mar 20, 2009)

Hi Shane,

I don't have much experience driving the Tracker, even as an ICE driven vehicle. The one time I did drive it to town for the tags, it was acting 'top heavy' in the turns... and with your battery pack on the rear deck, I imagine the center of gravity is fairly high. I'm hoping mine will be lower after all that work to keep the batteries as low as possible.

With that said, I lost 2 inches of clearence in this build. I ordered a 2 inch suspension lift kit for my build but probably won't install it till I have a few hundred miles on it. I hope to start driving it soon. Still working out some bugs. 

One of which:

About your Soliton Jr. cooling system. After cramming everything into the engine compartment, I don't have any room left over for the cooling system. So, I'm looking for a smaller system that might fit better but still do the job. I recall you used a computer's liquid cooling system. Now that you have some time behind the wheel, how is that working for you? Based on your normal use, do you think it is necessary to add liquid cooling?


Otherwise, got my controller back from Evnetics on Monday, installed it the same day. Got that huge circuit breaker last week and installed it on Sunday. Put my BMS back together but still getting a audible alarm so I'm waiting again for a response from tech support on possible causes and fixes. Going without a tach for now. Calculated max speed in each gear to keep rpm below 5000 so I stay with that till the winter sets in and I decide it is time to pull the drive line to fix that tach sensor. 

Thanks,
Pete


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## TEV (Nov 25, 2011)

Nice work, sorry about all the drawbacks, I hope you get your EV on the road very soon.

Toma


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## Yukon_Shane (Jul 15, 2010)

PeterH said:


> Hi Shane,
> 
> I don't have much experience driving the Tracker, even as an ICE driven vehicle. The one time I did drive it to town for the tags, it was acting 'top heavy' in the turns... and with your battery pack on the rear deck, I imagine the center of gravity is fairly high. I'm hoping mine will be lower after all that work to keep the batteries as low as possible.
> 
> ...


Hey Pete,

Ya the tracker handing is less then impressive but really not that bad. It kind of depends on what you're used to, I find the tracker handles significantly worst then my VW golf but then I've always been impressed with the VW. keeping the centre of gravity low would definately help I'm sure and I may have to try and revise my battery set-up in the future. For right now I'm looking into lowering the car which I also think might help a bit. I'm also thinking I'll upgrade the shocks, springs and maybe some of the bushings and other suspension parts. I don't need this vehicle to be a street machine or anything but a little better handling would be nice.

The funny think is that the thing I was actually worried about before completing the car was the manual steering but I haven't found that to be a problem at all. 

soliton Jr cooling: I can't say for certain but I don't think that my liquid cooling ever actually turns on. I certain never hear it turn on even when I'm sitting at a light after climbing a big hill. I've tested it more then once so I know it's working but my controller doesn't really ever seem to get that hot. I certainly don't ever seem to notice a performance decline after driving for awhile. I'm planning to wire in an LED that indicates when the pump turns on but haven't gotten around to it yet. 

I'll try to remember to bring my laptop to work tomorrow and run the datalogger so that I can confirm the controller temperature for the entire trip (been meaning to do that anyway). If I were you I'd run the car for a few weeks without the liquid cooling and just see what it's like. It may be that you don't need it at all. Plus you can always upgrade later when/if you feel the need (or if you get bored).

BMS: I've had (and continue to have) some BMS challenges on my build. Dimitri has been very responsive to my tech support requests which has been great but I do still get the occassional false alarm from the BMS which typically seem to occur when I've left the car sit for a day or so which doesn't seem to make any sense to me. I know this could be caused by a high voltage frame leak but I can't find any such leak (no voltage between my pack and my chassis) so it's a bit frustrating. Let me know if you find a solution to your BMS problems. I have to say that it does make me glad that my battery pack is so accessible because I find atleast once a week I'm having to check every cell and resure myself that the pack is okay and it is in-fact a false alarm from the BMS.

I was kind of on the fence regarding the value of the tach sensor when I was completing my build but I have to say that after driving the car for the past month I find that I'm constantly watching the tach. I've also found the over-rev protection on the soliton very valuable. When I'm downshifting it's much faster to bring the revs up a bit by giving the motor a bit of throttle while out of gear and it's very easy to over-rev an unloaded electric motor (I've hit the max rpm by mistake a few times). Then again if I remember correctly you kept your clutch so you likely won't have to worry about shifting as much as I do.

Sounds like you're in the home stretch!


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## PeterH (Mar 20, 2009)

Hi Shane,

Thanks for the info about the cooling system. I'll bypass that issue till I have some experience behind the wheel.

I'm using the centralized version of the mini bms and the only problems I seem to have had so far, I caused myself. For example, I didn't know that putting a maintenance switch that would break the pack would burn out one of the sensor circuits. Fortunately that was fixed by a simple bypass on the the main board because I had several that weren't being used.

Since I am using the centralized verion, I built in a sort of "patch panel" for all those wires that lets me easily check each cell's voltage without having to access the battery boxes. On the down side, as nice as that is, it takes up a lot of space under the hood which is causing problems with trying to find space for the extra controller cooling components... and your use of the smaller CPU liquid cooling components sounds like the solition I need, if in fact, I need to add cooling.

However, when I got everything all connected up this morning, it was still sounding an alarm. Turned out another jumper had to be changed to account for the new position of the last monitoring ciruit. Easy to do. BUT when I was reconnecting it again, I accidently skipped one monitoring circuit and that was enough to burn out that circuit. I think I can bypass the bad one if I understand the general layout correctly. I'll know by tomorrow if I do or not because I just removed the board again and the soldering station is heating up! Otherwise, I'll be ordering a new master control board and operating BMS-Free for a while.

I'm calling for auto insurance tomorrow, with or without an operating BMS!!! Time to put this beast on the road and carefully test it out! 

Thanks,
Pete


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## Yukon_Shane (Jul 15, 2010)

PeterH said:


> Hi Shane,
> 
> Thanks for the info about the cooling system. I'll bypass that issue till I have some experience behind the wheel.
> 
> ...


 
I think with this type of project at some point you just have to pull the trigger and start driving it! I know my project is far from what I'd consider complete but actually using the car has really help me prioritize the areas that really need to be worked on first vs those that I thought were important when it was on jack stands.

As far as controller cooling, if you're cramped for space you may also want to consider a simplified setup that just includes a pump and a reservoir. I included a small computer radiator and fans in my set-up but, as I was saying in my earlier post, I really think this was overkill. A little Laing D5 pump and a decently sized cooling reservoir would probably be more then enough. I used a computer cooling reservoir from frozenCPU which I kind of regret now (cheap plastic that likely won't make it through the winter). I'll be replacing this reservoir with either a plastic or aluminum one soon.


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## PeterH (Mar 20, 2009)

I agree fully that it comes a time when you have to just shoot the engineer and get on with the project. That's what I did this morning! 

Just back from my first drive into town. I'm updating my thread with details and some notes.





Yukon_Shane said:


> A little Laing D5 pump and a decently sized cooling reservoir would probably be more then enough. I used a computer cooling reservoir from frozenCPU which I kind of regret now (cheap plastic that likely won't make it through the winter). I'll be replacing this reservoir with either a plastic or aluminum one soon.


Darn, I was just about to ask you for details on what components you used. I've searched NewEgg.com for computer cooling components but they seem to have gone to mostly 'all in one' solutions which makes it difficult to adapt them to our purposes. I'll keep looking.

Steering is a bit 'twitchy' but acceptable given the vehicle. Seems very stable in the turns on the gravel road I took to town... which is very different from last year's trip. It is back on the charger now so I can take another "test drive".

Pete


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## Yukon_Shane (Jul 15, 2010)

PeterH said:


> I agree fully that it comes a time when you have to just shoot the engineer and get on with the project. That's what I did this morning!
> 
> Just back from my first drive into town. I'm updating my thread with details and some notes.
> 
> ...


FrozenCPU will have everything you're looking for I would just recommend going with a simple aluminum reservoir vs the computer variety. Nothing wrong with the reservoir it's just made of a fairly cheap plastic that I'm certain will crack in the cold the first time something touches it. 

FrozenCPU has a variety of 12volt pumps that will work as well.


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## PeterH (Mar 20, 2009)

Thanks Shane. I'll visit their site and place an order soon. Just fired off an email asking for help from Evnetics. For some reason my Solton Jr. is throwing an error any time I apply throttle. Otherwise seems to be working ok, but the blinking check-engine light concerns me.

Thanks,
Pete


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## Yukon_Shane (Jul 15, 2010)

As promised I'm posting some controller temperature data from my commute to work today for your review. It's pretty interesting actually, I think I was probably half wrong regarding the value of the cooling system. 

You can see from the graph that my controller regularly gets to temperatures above 40C which is when the cooling system switches one. The controller temp very quickly drops back down below 40C which I can only assume is a function of the effectiveness of the cooling system. 

It's interesting how closely tied the temperature of the controller is with the motor amperage. I knew there would be a connection between the two but assumed that the temperature would increase/decrease gradually but this data sheems to show no lag time at all. Probably something all EE's learned in first year and I'm just figuring out now


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## PeterH (Mar 20, 2009)

SO glad you just posted this! 

I just ordered a combined radiator/tank from FrozenCPU. I didn't order hoses etc, because I was reading the specs and the max temp they are rated for is 60 or 70C. I didn't know off hand the cut-in temp on the Soliton but now I do, and based on your data, I'll get a cooling system installed asap.

Thanks for taking the trouble to compile and post that very informative data!!

Pete


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## PeterH (Mar 20, 2009)

Hi Shane,

How is your ev working?

Finally got my controller cooling hardware installed. Still need to wire it up... but that brings to mind a question. What sort of cooling fluid did you use? I was just going to use a standard anti-freeze coolant but wanted to ask.

Also, when you are driving your tracker do you use all of the gears? I use first gear only when I need to climb a ramp on a service lift. Mostly starting in second gear, then third and right to fifth.

400 miles on it so far!

Had a Calmini 2 inch lift kit put on the other day. Recovered all of the clearence I lost to my hanging battery boxes.

Thanks,
Pete


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## Yukon_Shane (Jul 15, 2010)

PeterH said:


> Hi Shane,
> 
> How is your ev working?
> 
> ...


 
Hey Pete,

the soliton manual says you can use any coolant that is appropriate for aluminum (so pretty much any antifreeze will do). I believe what I used was dexcool but I don't think it matters much.

The tracker is driving great! Any problems I'm having are related to the car being a bit old and needing some TLC. I find it's got lots of power and the range great for my needs, I've never gotten close to running out of juice and most days I've only used 25% of my batteries capacity.

I have a different gearing set-up then you because my car was originally a 4X4 so it had a very low rear gear plus I replaced the stock transmission a four speed from an s10. The result of all of this is that I find both 1st and 2nd pretty useless. I occassional use 2nd if I'm feeling sporty but 99% of the time I start in 3rd and only shift into 4th on the highway. 

I think eventually I might look to make some transmission changes because I don't love the clutchless shifting (although it is getting alot easier). lately I'm really liking the idea of using a two speed powerglide with a manual valve body and no torque converter. Really just day dreaming though; the real priorities will be suspension and body work.

Glad to hear that the lift kit worked out so well. Let me know how that kit effects the vehicles handling. I definately want to spend a bit of time making my rig handle better and I think a suspension upgrade will be the key.


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## PeterH (Mar 20, 2009)

Hi there,

I didn't know you had switched to a different transmission... interesting... 

During my very first test drive after the lift kit was installed, I noticed a rumbling that felt and sounded like I was driving on a very closely spaced rumple strip along the side of the road but the road was nice and smooth. The mechanic thought it might be something caused by the new angle between the drive line and the rear end. I recall that being something we were concerned with when placing the motor in the EV so I wasn't surprised.

I called Calmini (the lift kit maker) and they insisted I don't need to adjust anything since this was only a 2 inch lift kit. They wanted me to drive a while to see if it settled down. Seems like it has... so I'm very happy with it. It doesn't seem to have changed the handling at all... if anything, a bit better because with this kit you get new shocks, springs and struts... so practically an overhaul of the suspension system! Of course, with my battery pack positioned so low, I think the low center of gravity helps.

I'm off to the parts store again to buy some coolant. Seems that is one thing I don't have any of, in my shop at the moment.

Oh, btw, my amp hour meter has worked very well to indicate remaining capacity. Like you, I've never come close to using a full charge. I think the most I've used was still less than half! I have two sets of meters in this rig. Interesting to note that they differ in their amp draw readings... I usually have the 404 set to show amp hours and the other set to show current draw and pack voltage. Don't think I've pulled more than 200 amps yet! Still being cautious.

Sometime soon, I have to pull the motor and trans again to fix the tach sensor and to determine the cause of a vibration in the driveline. Either my flywheel is out of balance or... well, don't know what else it could be.

Thanks!
Pete


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## green caveman (Oct 2, 2009)

Pete,



PeterH said:


> The mechanic thought it might be something caused by the new angle between the drive line and the rear end. I recall that being something we were concerned with when placing the motor in the EV so I wasn't surprised.


Just so I'm sure about this. The transmission moved up with the body, which changed the angle of the driveline? In other words, we can mount the transmission/motor higher than it was in the original (gas) car without any undue consequences? Just checking because in our case the motor only just clears the front diff (4WD) and so another 1/2" may be useful. 

It also turns out that the motor terminal are on the bottom of the motor. My CAD error. Nothings symmetrical, so we can't just rotate the motor/plate. So we have that problem also (probably just means the body-pan idea will be moved up the to-do list.

We will either be able to JUST get 33 100Ahr Thundersky's in the spot where the gas tank was removed, or the gas tank brackets will be in the way and they won't quite fit. If they don't fit we'll either deal with the brackets, and find a different way to attach the battery box, or we'll take out batteries and put them in the front.


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## PeterH (Mar 20, 2009)

Hi Green,

This is a suspension lift kit so the verticle distance between the rear end and the transmission did increase by a few inches. I seem to have picked up a few new noises in the transmission or rear end... just a low 'grumble' at lower speeds. I think you can get away with a slight shift of your motor to clear the front differential.

I kept the clutch and remain happy that I did.

I am also happy with my placement of my batteries. Only got 15 where the old gas tank sat.

450 miles so far... even enjoying a quick run to town for just about anything... before I'd wait till I couldn't wait any longer and would just burn the gas. 

Pete


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## green caveman (Oct 2, 2009)

PeterH said:


> I kept the clutch and remain happy that I did.


Clutch is still there, we're having trouble placing the cable bracket. Should fit on the side of the adapter plate, but I'm not sure that there's a straight shot to drill/tap. There's not much enthusiasm for removing the whole assembly just to drill two holes!



PeterH said:


> I am also happy with my placement of my batteries. Only got 15 where the old gas tank sat.


You have bigger batteries. 15 means you have 2400ah back there, we have 3300, so not that much difference.

That's a little more weight than a tank full of gas, but since we have a big forklift motor in the front the distribution should still be about right.


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## PeterH (Mar 20, 2009)

Hi Shane,

How is the steering on your Tracker? Mine is so sloppy that when tracking straight ahead, I have turn the wheel roughly 10 to 15 degrees to effect the steering. That might be over stating it a bit, but it is very sloppy. Wondering if that is normal for these, or if my steering gear box needs to be replaced... that should be a 'fun' project...

Also, have you done anything to keep rain water out of the engine compartment and off of your components?

Thanks,
Pete


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## Yukon_Shane (Jul 15, 2010)

PeterH said:


> Hi Shane,
> 
> How is the steering on your Tracker? Mine is so sloppy that when tracking straight ahead, I have turn the wheel roughly 10 to 15 degrees to effect the steering. That might be over stating it a bit, but it is very sloppy. Wondering if that is normal for these, or if my steering gear box needs to be replaced... that should be a 'fun' project...
> 
> ...


My steering is actually pretty good, there's a little bit of play but not much and I'm finding the manual steering not a problem at all. 

I haven't done anything to keep the engine compartment rain free and we've actually had some pretty hard rains this summer with no problems in the engine compartment. Unfortunately I'm getting alot of dust accumulating on components which is a bit of a pain (how do you clean dust out of all the little grooves in the Soliton jr).

Now the hardtop is another matter. I replaced the soft-top with a junkyard hardtop to cut down on the noise on the highway which it did but now whenever it rains I find a little puddle of water in the trunk. Who would have thought a soft top would be better at keeping the weather out?


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## Yukon_Shane (Jul 15, 2010)

I reworked my motor mounts so that the drive train is completely isolated from the chassis now. I was hoping that this would get rid of the engine "singing" that I get when I apply throtte and it certainly reduced the sound but it's definately still there. 

In the Soliton Jr's quiet mode the singing is tollerable now (although still a bit annoying) but performance mode is out of the question (I'd have a headache before I got to work in the morning).


The sound insulation on my Geo Tracker is pretty much non-existent so I'm going to try that next. 

the change in mounting definately improved transmission noise and vibration but I have to say that, for all the work it took, I'm not sure that it's that much better then the solid mounting I had orignally. If I started from scratch I would definately use the stock motor mounts but if I could go back a week I might have left the mounting as is.

I also spent one evening going through a break-in procedure for my motor. A bit late given that I've been driving the car for several months but better late then never I say. I put back axel on jack stands, set the soliton idle control to 1000 rpm, put the car in fourth gear and let it spin for 9 hours. I had to stop around 6 hours to get some sleep (I didn't feel comfortable letting this car spin in my garage while I was sleeping) and started it up again in the morning. Less time then Major recommends but 9 hours was about as long as I think I could afford and should be good enough I'd think.


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## PeterH (Mar 20, 2009)

Hi Shane,

Thanks for the update on your build!

Boy, you must have put a lot of work into your build to change the motor mounts! Guess I'll be doing the same in another month or so... I'll need to pull the drive train to deal with my missing tach signal. 

Meanwhile... I've still not switched from "performance" mode on the Solition. I don't even hear it any longer unless I really want to. I've also noticed that my motor seems to be much quieter now that the brushes have broken in after 1300+ miles. I've even started using first gear once in a while just to get a quicker start in traffic... very nice acceleration!

I removed the carpet from the Sidekick in my barn... took hours with a power washer to get it clean enough to look promising. I removed all the old padding behind the carpet because it was truely 'nasty'! I bought some standard foam carpet padding remenants to use for some sound proofing. Not expecting much but I'm sure it will be an improvement over the raw metal floors I have presently!

How is your heating system working out? If I recall correctly, you said you bought some sort of small water heater on Amazon or eBay... if that is correct, and it is working for you, would you be willing to share the details of what you bought? I need to do something soon... drove home after dark last night and my wife was expecting some heat on her feet! I told her to get out and jog a bit but that didn't work out too well. 

Now that I've added the lift kit and the taller tires (205-70R15) my power consumption has gone up a bit... I'm now 'burning' about 2.15 Ah per mile meaning my practical distance limit is 50 miles. Still well within my normal needs. Fired up my VW Golf yesterday for the first time in a month... really felt like I was sitting on the ground in comparison to my Tracker!

Thanks,
Pete


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## Yukon_Shane (Jul 15, 2010)

PeterH said:


> Hi Shane,
> 
> Thanks for the update on your build!
> 
> ...


Hey Pete,

Ya it was a long saturday redesigning the mounting. I think I finished up around 9pm at my fathers shop and was pretty tired on the drive home when I realized that I hadn't reconnected the ground on my brake vacuum pump. Lukely the brakes still work but it was a hard push to get the car stopped.

I'm hoping my motor might quiet down a bit once it's broken in more too. I might have to put it up on blocks again and let it run for a fews days as major recommends. My impression is that the sound is a high enough frequency that alot of people don't really hear it and it doesn't bother them much if at all. It's either a testiment to my hearing or my limited tollerance but I find the performance mode singing intolerable.

padding remnant is an excellent idea. I'm going to track some of this down, thanks for the tip.

The Heating system is 99% complete. I finished all the wiring and most of the installation this week and now I just need to find a place to mount the overflow reservoir and pump and I'll be good to go. I did a quick test run without any water in it this weekend; don't do this! the heater started smoking as soon as I hit the switch and was a bit scary. This is definately a system that needs to have water flowing through it regularly to prevent it overheating. On the plus side the fuse didn't blow and the emergency temperature snap switch in the heater switched the system off as designed (after I'd already switch the system off myself but it still works). 

It's all off the shelf stuff most of which I got from Amazon and ebay. All you really need is an external water heater for a big truck block heater (Kat's is the brand of mine I believe) a 12v solar hot water heater pump, a water reservoir, a fuse, and some heater hose to tie into the original heater core. The toughest part is finding a place to mount all this stuff. I'll post a bunch of pictures ones I finish the installation.


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## Yukon_Shane (Jul 15, 2010)

Well it was the first really cold day here and I have to say I'm a bit dissapointed in the performance of my electric car.

After performing so well all summer/fall the drive to work today was pretty pathetic. To be fair it was -17C (4F) this morning but I did expect it to be perform atleast reasonable well down to -20C). 

Summary of issues:


My 3,000 watt heater is not nearly strong enough to keep the cab warm. I think it's probably a function of the fact that the fluid heater and the reservoir are made of aluminum which is loosing all it's heat as I drive down the road. I'll have to try and insulate these somehow I guess.
The battery sag was outrageous. just pulling out onto the highway at maybe 2C had my pack sagging down to 125V which is somewhere around 22%. These batteries are rated to operate down to -40C but I'm starting to think that this is some sort of chinesse-english translation error and maybe they ment that they can be stored down to -40C. I guess it's time to seriously insulate and add heat to this pack.
my dc/dc and aux battery seem to be having trouble keeping up. I don't really get this but I was getting a controller error when the break vacuum pump would turn on which has me guessing that the 12v system was likely dipping below the soliton's tollerance levels. I get why the aux battery would perform baddly in the cold but why wouldn't the dc/dc be able to keep up? I'll have to investigate this a bit more (in the spring).
Long story short, it's been a great 6 months of driving but I think I might have to park the ecar for the winter and start working on some winterizing techniques if I want to drive this think for more then 7-8 months of the year.

Here' hoping I make it up the hill on the way home


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## Yabert (Feb 7, 2010)

Keep the battery warm is the key.
I drive my little Smart all last winter at temperature between +5°C to -20°C without problem because I always warm my battery at around 0°C when I charge.
In fact, I have tries one time to recharge the battery without warming first at -14°C and the battery don't take the current (BMS saw a full battery pack and shut off the charger despite I charged a minute or so). This year, I will set the lower temperature at higher value. 120w heating cable water pipe is barely enough in my case.

About heating the small cab, my 1500w element isn't enough.... I use glove and beanie!..


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## PeterH (Mar 20, 2009)

Hi Shane,

All I can say is "ok crap!!" 

I just returned from a drive to town. It is in the mid 40's here and my EV sat in my unheated garage for the last 2 days so the batteries were cold, but no where near as cold as yours. I noticed my voltage dropped to no less than 135V from a resting voltage of about 143 or so. So I'm not seeing the sag you are, but I'm still much warmer than you are... but the wind today is our of the north so I won't be for long.

I'm charging at the moment, after the 20 mile drive. Expecting the batteries to be warm enough to take a full charge.

The purpose of my trip was to get some parts to hook up my 1500 watt block heater. By the sounds of it, that heater won't come close to warming anything up... guess the wifie won't be riding with me to town this winter. I was wondering if 1500 watts would do anything... so guess I know now don't I?

More importantly, do you have anything in place to warm the batteries? I will need to wire up and program the controls for my system... but it remains untested in cold weather so I may be parking it for the next 6 months or so, as well.

I went to EVCON last month where it was much warmer.  I guess this explains why most of the cars seemed to be from warmer climates... but won't give up on this!

Let us know how your trip home goes...

Pete


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## Yukon_Shane (Jul 15, 2010)

well I survived my trip home but it was a pretty slow drive. My BMS was screaming at me all the way up the 1/2 mile hill I have to climb on my way home...that sound never makes a person feel good, especially when it used to climb the hill without a peep.

So I took Yalbert's advice (thanks) and picked up a couple of monster oil pan heaters from the local industrial supply store. They were more expensive then I expected ($160 for two 450 watt pads!) but I don't have alot of local options and I don't really have time to order anything online so I just ate the cost. I used high temperature silicone to mount them to the side of my sheet metal battery box and left the car in the garage for the night to let the silicon dry.

I plugged the heaters in for a half hour this morning and the temperature sensor in the box went from 6C to 16C. I unplugged the heaters and watch the temperature continue to climb for the next 10 minutes up to 20C! I took the car home for lunch just now and it was behaving like it's old self again; lots of power and very little voltage sag (and no BMS screeming).

So these heaters work but I'll have to make sure that they don't overheat the pack. The box is lined with 1/4 inch of rubber and the pads are quite big so I think there won't be too much of a hot spot created inside the box but I'll have to be cautious to not leave these on for too long just in case.

I'll also have to do some sort of cost benefit analysis on when it starts to make sense to park the car and when I should just plug in.

Insulating the pack more then it is now will probably make a big difference too. I've put a 2 inch thick board of rigid foam on the top of the box for now and I'll cover the sides with the same stuff tonight and see how that works. If it seems like it's enough then I'll work on making it look a bit nicer. 

It's all a bit slapped together for now but if it can keep me from having to drive my gas guzzler for another months I'll be happy. Cold weather has a way of forcing you to make due with what you got

Pete you went to EVCON! I'm super jelious, I'd love to make it down there one year. It'd be great to meet all the great EV folks in person and share some laughs. Maybe next year...


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## Yukon_Shane (Jul 15, 2010)

M3yer5s said:


> Any comments or suggested improvements are truelly welcome.


Hey M3Yer5s:

I'm not sure if it's just me but I can't seem to see the images you've posted...


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## PeterH (Mar 20, 2009)

Darn, just lost a big fat thread I was posting... I'll try to remember all my brilliant words. 

Hi Shane,

Yes, EVCON was VERY educational! The most important thing I learned was about out DC motors.

After a long detailed discussion on the subject with Tom B. from Helwig brushes, this is a what I learned:

1. If you lift your brushes to check something (don't) you should repeat the brush seating process. Even it takes so very long to properly seat the brushes. Properly seated brushes will go a long way to ensuring a long and safe life for them and avoid damage that might result from brushes damaged by too high current before they are properly seated.

Some of the new brushes they are working on will take upwards of a week of continous use to properly seat!

2. When it is time to replace my brushes, I'll remove the motor and disassemble the end so I can remove the armature. It is critical to clean out old brush dust as best you can. Using air and perhaps acetone (avoiding skin contact!). Brush dust is the leading cause of frame leaks between the armature and the stator.

3. I'll put the armature on a lathe to dress up the commutator with either a diamond tool on the lathe or using first 80 grit emory paper and 150 grit emory paper to ensure as close of a perfectly round commutator as possible. Apparently a round commutator is critial to long life and reducing arching as the brushes bounce in the holders.

4. I believe Tom said the proper pressure on the brushes in 8 pounds per sq. inch. Factory brush holders usually only apply 3 psi. He uses a trick to increase the pressure. He will add an extra 180 degree turn to the clock springs that press against the brushes. He also said we can get a rough measurement of the brush pressure using a simple fish scale.

5. He also lectured on motor cooling. Apparently, US designed motors force air from the commutator across the armature and out the end of the motor. European motors do the opposite, the suck air in the end opposite of the brushes and blow it out past the brushes. The reasons and logic vary between designers but they all agree that the max heat is seen at the commutator and air movement is critical to temp control. I need to do something about this before next year... even tho I really don't have much of a hot season to worry about here in the Idaho panhandle.

Did you know there is something like 60/1000's of an inch clearance between the armature and the stator? I think that is what I heard. In any case, there isn't much room for air flow so that is why some are using those turbo blowers to force air thru the motor.

On guy showed up with a blown motor in his EV. When he pulled into Jack's shop it sounded like he was grinding rocks in the motor. After a bunch of bored but willing attendees pulled his motor and the armature was removed it was clear what had happened. George Hamstra and Tom B. (of Helwig brushes) examined the now dead Warp motor and concluded that accumulated brush dust caused an arch between the armature and stator which welded a spot on the armature and stator together. Then when the driver pulled away from the traffic light, a chunk of the armature was pulled out which basically destroyed the motor.

Here is a short video clip I shot, showing the damaged armature.
http://youtu.be/EGrBOdhes7w

If I can avoid destroying my motor based on what I learned at the conference, it was well worth the $1200 it cost to attend. Hope I can go next year. 

I'm off to find parts for my underpowered 1500 watt block heater. Can't do anything better about heating till I find another job. Just got laid off... damn glad everything is paid for!

Pete


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## Yukon_Shane (Jul 15, 2010)

Sounds like it was well worth the trip. It's got to be great to have all that expertise in one room.

Sorry to hear about the job. Hopefully things will pick up soon.


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## Yukon_Shane (Jul 15, 2010)

Well my efforts to drive my EV through the winter appear to have come to a failure yet again this year.

I spent the summer adding 3 inches of ridged foam insullation around the battery box and incorporating an integrated battery box heater under the cells that work really well. I also added a MES-DEA fluid heater for the cab.

This morning my it was -27C (-17F) but my batteries were at a balmy 17C due to my insulation and heating efforts, I turned on the cab heater and got the windshield defrosted and was feeling pretty good about myself until I turned the key and the vacuum pump started making a vary sad sound that was clearly not right. It pick-up a bit of steam but began draining the battery quickly and for some reason my dc/dc wasn't able to keep up so the lights started to dim before the vacuum pump stoped working all together

I'm not sure if the vacuum pump is toast or if it just needs to be heated up a bit to work. It does have somesort of oil filled muffler which may have frozen at this temperature.

All I know is that it's way too cold for me to be trying to fix it so it looks like I'll be driving the gas guzzler until it warms up again.

If anyone has any suggestions or can recommend a new vacuum pump that is known to survive at thes temperatures I'm all ears.


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## PeterH (Mar 20, 2009)

Hi Shane,

Sorry to hear about that... 

Do you have a aux 12 volt battery in your system? I suspect not... and I suspect you are correct about the vac pump being too cold.

I've basically had to park my EV for the winter as well, and we don't have near the cold you do. I keep the battery warming system plugged in while it is in my garage and if I had a place to plug it in at work, I'd try driving it to work. However, I bet I'd have the same problem with the vac pump.

I only drive it on the weekends when go into town for a quick trip to the store. Even then, the voltage sag is noticibly greater than it is in the summer, but still enough to get me up to highway speeds to make the trip.

Wonder if enclosing the vac pump and warming the enclosure might help. Do you have a source of 110 AC at work to keep things warm while you are at work?

Stay warm....

Pete


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## TEV (Nov 25, 2011)

Yukon_Shane said:


> Well my efforts to drive my EV through the winter appear to have come to a failure yet again this year.
> If anyone has any suggestions or can recommend a new vacuum pump that is known to survive at thes temperatures I'm all ears.


Hi, 
The same company who made your heater is also making 2 vacuum pumps (I have the bigger one in my truck and I don't have a tank, it's connected direct , works like a charm ), they are not cheap but safety is important.
http://www.metricmind.com/category/ev-vacuum-pumps/

Is everything in one unit , plug and play .

If you order one don't forget to order a connector too.

Technical data. 70/6E. 70/6E2
Nominal voltage: 12 VDC. 12 VDC
Max. current: < 2.5 A. < 5 A
Time to -0.5 bar in a 2 liters booster: < 12 S. < 6 S
Max. recommended vacuum: -0.65 bar. -0.72 bar
Min. pressure switch hysteresis: 0.050 bar. 0.050 bar
Weight: 1.3 kg. 1.4 kg
Noise level: < 58 dBA
Temperature: -20 ÷ +80 °C


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## Yukon_Shane (Jul 15, 2010)

PeterH said:


> Hi Shane,
> 
> Sorry to hear about that...
> 
> ...


Hey Pete,

I do have an Aux battery but it's just a little thing, I never really expected I'd need anything more then a small ATV battery to buffer the 12V loads a bit but now I'm wondering if a larger aux battery might be a good idea.

I think enclosing the vac pump is going to be the key. I might try and find a way to locate it in the same insulated area as the batteries so that I don't have to seperately heat it. With the low wattage heating pads that you and others here put me on to I really feel as though I've got the battery heating solved. 

Battery sag is huge in the cold, it's something that we don't talk about enough in my opinion. I think there is significant performance gains to be made just by ensuring you cells are at the right temperature. With 3 inches of rigid foam and active heating I really had the battery sag issues sorted out. 

It's the joy of these types of projects though I guess, you fix one problem and another one pops up. I'll let you know when I've perfected it.


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## Yukon_Shane (Jul 15, 2010)

TEV said:


> Hi,
> The same company who made your heater is also making 2 vacuum pumps (I have the bigger one in my truck and I don't have a tank, it's connected direct , works like a charm ), they are not cheap but safety is important.
> http://www.metricmind.com/category/ev-vacuum-pumps/
> 
> ...


 
Thanks TEV. This looks like a great unit. If it performance half as well as my heater does it's worth the money.

cheers


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