# [EVDL] cooling alternatives



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

My wife drives her Xebra EV to work in the middle of the Florida summer, while sitting comfortably on an EV Cool Seat.

http://www.evcoolingsystems.com/

It uses Peltier Effect to cool water running through tiny hoses in the seat and provides some substantial localized cooling. It's also a very comfortable seat pad, with a heating option for the cold parts of the world. It's not for everybody, but it works for my wife and when she's happy, I'm happier.

I considered something like the KoolerAire, but would probably build it myself. Instead of bare-naked ice, it's less humid to freeze water in 2 liter soft drink bottles, but harder to find if you're out on the road. A bag of ice can be found at most convenience stores and filling stations. Another reason to pull into a petrol-based service station with an EV.

fred
****************************
Original Message: 9
From: SteveS <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] adding A/C
For A/C I was thinking of something using an ice pack of some sort - I 
mean it only has to run the range of the car. Something like:

http://www.kooleraire.com/index.htm

- SteveS


End of original message 9

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

sweet info Fred thanks, if you ran ducts to just blow on you, you could put
the cooler behind the seat out of the sun.
Of course tinting the windows cuts a ton of heat also



> fred <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> > My wife drives her Xebra EV to work in the middle of the Florida summer,
> > while sitting comfortably on an EV Cool Seat.
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

That's pretty cool! (I really didn't intend the pun). I had electric 
seats in my Saab (RIP) and liked having a warm butt and back and the car 
cool. I imagine cooling would work well that way too.

Yeah, I don't think I would want open moist cool air - it's too humid 
here (northern VA) in the summer already. If I did something like that I 
would think about running a closed loop through an ice-filled container 
and a coil in the vents - maybe use the heater coil?

Course I need an EV first!

- SteveS



> fred wrote:
> > My wife drives her Xebra EV to work in the middle of the Florida summer, while sitting comfortably on an EV Cool Seat.
> >
> > http://www.evcoolingsystems.com/
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

That's pretty cool! (I really didn't intend the pun). I had electric 
seats in my Saab (RIP) and liked having a warm butt and back and the car 
cool. I imagine cooling would work well that way too.

Yeah, I don't think I would want open moist cool air - it's too humid 
here (northern VA) in the summer already. If I did something like that I 
would think about running a closed loop through an ice-filled container 
and a coil in the vents - maybe use the heater coil?

Course I need an EV first!

- SteveS



> fred wrote:
> > My wife drives her Xebra EV to work in the middle of the Florida summer, while sitting comfortably on an EV Cool Seat.
> >
> > http://www.evcoolingsystems.com/
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

The heat exchanger is inside the car though? I was thinking of building some
kind of Peltier cooling system (vented outside though), but from what I have
read it is very ineffecient. I am think of some combination of Peltier and
an ice cooled water pump like this one:
http://www.instructables.com/id/Portable-12V-Air-Conditioner---Cheap-and-easy!/
-Paul K




> fred_dot_u wrote:
> >
> > My wife drives her Xebra EV to work in the middle of the Florida summer,
> > while sitting comfortably on an EV Cool Seat.
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

have you seen those solar powered fans that roll up in your window, they
suck out the hot air as it sits in the lot. plus window tint.
I still think ducting it to blow right on you, say a small flex hose like a
shop vac uses could be aimed under or around your head rest to keep you neck
cool.
those could be fitted to the seat back



> Jeff Shanab <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> > My problem with ice based systems is that I work first shift. I don't
> > need AC on the way to work, I need it on the way home.
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Jeff Shanab wrote:
> > So... My thought would be an ice chest that holds a 6 paclk of those
> > little 20oz diet coke bottles. They are curvy and have room for air flow
> > around them.
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Mythbusters did a test trying to cool beer and found that ice with salt
water cooled the fastest. Maybe you could have some ice in a freezer at
work, dump it into a cooler with copper piping and then dump salt water
in there. That would cool down to 38 degrees pretty quick. They showed
it cooled in less than a minute. Might make a good swamp cooler. 

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On
Behalf Of Doug Weathers
Sent: Monday, April 21, 2008 16:43
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] cooling alternatives





> Jeff Shanab wrote:
> > So... My thought would be an ice chest that holds a 6 paclk of those
> > little 20oz diet coke bottles. They are curvy and have room for air
> > flow around them.
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Wow! Mythbusters "Proved" something that has been well known for
hundreds, possibly thousands, of years. 

Anyway, from what I've read chilling the water used in a swamp cooler has
negligible effect on it's cooling ability.
It occurs to me that a two stage cooler might be a good idea. Dump salt
on ice and run the super cooled saltwater through a suitable radiator. 
Route the water coming out of the radiator over the pads for your swamp
cooler.
Blow air through the pads in the swamp cooler and THEN through the radiator.

This two stage cooling will probably proving faster cooling than either
method alone and will have the advantage (over radiator only systems) of
still providing some cooling after the ice is all melted.

> Mythbusters did a test trying to cool beer and found that ice with salt
> water cooled the fastest. Maybe you could have some ice in a freezer at
> work, dump it into a cooler with copper piping and then dump salt water
> in there. That would cool down to 38 degrees pretty quick. They showed
> it cooled in less than a minute. Might make a good swamp cooler.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On
> Behalf Of Doug Weathers
> Sent: Monday, April 21, 2008 16:43
> To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] cooling alternatives
>
>
>


> > Jeff Shanab wrote:
> >> So... My thought would be an ice chest that holds a 6 paclk of those
> >> little 20oz diet coke bottles. They are curvy and have room for air
> >> flow around them.
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

I agree that it would work. I wonder though if running it through
multiple coolers would be overkill. On the site it showed it was able
to cool the cab of a truck in 10 minuts to 65 degrees with it being 95
degrees outside. That was with single stage cooling. 

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On
Behalf Of Peter VanDerWal
Sent: Tuesday, April 22, 2008 5:17
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] cooling alternatives

Wow! Mythbusters "Proved" something that has been well known for
hundreds, possibly thousands, of years. 

Anyway, from what I've read chilling the water used in a swamp cooler
has negligible effect on it's cooling ability.
It occurs to me that a two stage cooler might be a good idea. Dump salt
on ice and run the super cooled saltwater through a suitable radiator. 
Route the water coming out of the radiator over the pads for your swamp
cooler.
Blow air through the pads in the swamp cooler and THEN through the
radiator.

This two stage cooling will probably proving faster cooling than either
method alone and will have the advantage (over radiator only systems) of
still providing some cooling after the ice is all melted.

> Mythbusters did a test trying to cool beer and found that ice with 
> salt water cooled the fastest. Maybe you could have some ice in a 
> freezer at work, dump it into a cooler with copper piping and then 
> dump salt water in there. That would cool down to 38 degrees pretty 
> quick. They showed it cooled in less than a minute. Might make a
good swamp cooler.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On 
> Behalf Of Doug Weathers
> Sent: Monday, April 21, 2008 16:43
> To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] cooling alternatives
>
>
>


> > Jeff Shanab wrote:
> >> So... My thought would be an ice chest that holds a 6 paclk of those
> >> little 20oz diet coke bottles. They are curvy and have room for air
> >> flow around them.
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

On second thought, scratch that. Using salt water in a swamp cooler is a
bad idea. The salt will build up on the pads and most likely you'll end
up with salt mist in the air (big time corrosion problems)

Use plain ice water instead.

> Mythbusters did a test trying to cool beer and found that ice with salt
> water cooled the fastest. Maybe you could have some ice in a freezer at
> work, dump it into a cooler with copper piping and then dump salt water
> in there. That would cool down to 38 degrees pretty quick. They showed
> it cooled in less than a minute. Might make a good swamp cooler.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On
> Behalf Of Doug Weathers
> Sent: Monday, April 21, 2008 16:43
> To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] cooling alternatives
>
>
>


> > Jeff Shanab wrote:
> >> So... My thought would be an ice chest that holds a 6 paclk of those
> >> little 20oz diet coke bottles. They are curvy and have room for air
> >> flow around them.
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

the salt build up on the pads
would make a mess of them in short order
you would have to clean them everytime you hit the car wash for sure


> Peter VanDerWal <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> > Wow! Mythbusters "Proved" something that has been well known for
> > hundreds, possibly thousands, of years.
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

The mess is contained to the cooler. Using salt would not be required
if the icewater was able to get to 38 degrees fairly quickly. They just
showed it on the website that saltwater and ice got to 38 a full minute
before regular ice and water. 

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On
Behalf Of Randy Eckert
Sent: Tuesday, April 22, 2008 12:53
To: [email protected]; Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] cooling alternatives

the salt build up on the pads
would make a mess of them in short order you would have to clean them
everytime you hit the car wash for sure On Tue, Apr 22, 2008 at 4:17 AM,


> Peter VanDerWal <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> > Wow! Mythbusters "Proved" something that has been well known for
> > hundreds, possibly thousands, of years.
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Peter VanDerWal wrote:
> 
> > It occurs to me that a two stage cooler might be a good idea. Dump
> > salt
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

http://www.brilliantcooler.com/air-coolers-fujitronic-fh776t.htm
look at this one.



> Doug Weathers <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> >
> > On Apr 22, 2008, at 3:17 AM, Peter VanDerWal wrote:
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Something similar. Little bit more compact.

http://www.cabelas.com/cabelas/en/templates/links/link.jsp?id=0053085518260a&type=product&cmCat=SEARCH&returnPage=search-results1.jsp&QueryText=51-8260&N=4887&Ntk=Products&Ntx=mode+matchall&Nty=1&Ntt=51-8260&noImage=0

If the link is broken from word wrap go to cabelas.com and search for product id 51-8260.



> -----Original Message-----
> From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On
> Behalf Of Randy Eckert
> Sent: Tuesday, April 22, 2008 7:50 PM
> To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] cooling alternatives
> 
> http://www.brilliantcooler.com/air-coolers-fujitronic-fh776t.htm
> look at this one.
> 
>


> Doug Weathers <[email protected]> wrote:
> >
> > >
> > > On Apr 22, 2008, at 3:17 AM, Peter VanDerWal wrote:
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Randy Eckert wrote:
> 
> > http://www.brilliantcooler.com/air-coolers-fujitronic-fh776t.htm
> > look at this one.
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

38 degrees, we used to make icecream that way, so I know it can get cold.

But what a mess. The reason for the bottles is to actually slow the
cooling and have cool, not cold, but dryer air lasting longer.

How I got started on this idea was actually from an idea for my house.
I have even considered getting that .05/kwh power that you can get here
from midnight to 7am and freezing a hundred or so (actually varing
sizes) to serve as time shifted A/C in my house. Large buildings and
schools are required by law to do that here.

Look at http://www.cryogel.com/

I remember seeing a church that had two square tanks full of these.

I did the calculations and a 17 foot long insulated box 18x24 would fit
under my windows along one wall of my house and provide the same cooling
capacity as 2 days of my AC. If cooling is done with say Ammonia
Absorption, then the energy cost can be really low. I would suck air
from one window, through the box and into the other window that would
shoot right down the hall.

To test this theory I came up with the idea of testing it in my EV this
summer with the diet coke bottles (anyone who knows me knows I have lots
of them around)

_______________________________________________
For subscription options, see
http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Chad Gray wrote:
> 
> > Something similar. Little bit more compact.
> >
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> to let the warm moisture-laden
> air out. Otherwise the air saturates and no more cooling takes place.

In humid climates, like Houston, swamp coolers are nonexistent. The
last thing I want in my car or home is more humidity! In the summers
you can actually see the humidity (no, it's not the smog.)

I'll just be powering my stock A/C with a 130V treadmill motor. I'll
hopefully design it so that it can be easily replaceable and have a
couple extra on hand just in case.

Brian





> Doug Weathers <[email protected]> wrote:
> >
> > On Apr 22, 2008, at 6:41 PM, Chad Gray wrote:
> >
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

The salt I was mentioning was only to make the ice melt faster. Ice
water pumped from the bottom of the cooler through a simple evaporator
core would work fine and be an very simple mechanism. If you are
worried about corrosion of the $5 heater core unit, then just run
straight water. I figure it would take more than a year of use to
corrode the heater core. 

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On
Behalf Of Doug Weathers
Sent: Tuesday, April 22, 2008 15:25
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List; [email protected]
Subject: Re: [EVDL] cooling alternatives




> Peter VanDerWal wrote:
> 
> > It occurs to me that a two stage cooler might be a good idea. Dump
> > salt on ice and run the super cooled saltwater through a suitable
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

That is a nice model. It is awfully tall though. 27" tall would be
hard to fit in the cab of a car unless it was taken apart. 

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On
Behalf Of Randy Eckert
Sent: Tuesday, April 22, 2008 19:50
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] cooling alternatives

http://www.brilliantcooler.com/air-coolers-fujitronic-fh776t.htm
look at this one.

On Tue, Apr 22, 2008 at 2:24 PM, Doug Weathers <[email protected]>
wrote:

>
>


> Peter VanDerWal wrote:
> >
> > > It occurs to me that a two stage cooler might be a good idea. Dump
> > > salt on ice and run the super cooled saltwater through a suitable
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

I wonder if you could drive that with a small solar panel. Maybe have
it turn on 30 minutes before you get out to the car so it will be nice
and cool when you get in the car? 

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On
Behalf Of Chad Gray
Sent: Tuesday, April 22, 2008 20:41
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] cooling alternatives

Something similar. Little bit more compact.

http://www.cabelas.com/cabelas/en/templates/links/link.jsp?id=0053085518
260a&type=product&cmCat=SEARCH&returnPage=search-results1.jsp&QueryText=
51-8260&N=4887&Ntk=Products&Ntx=mode+matchall&Nty=1&Ntt=51-8260&noImage=
0

If the link is broken from word wrap go to cabelas.com and search for
product id 51-8260.



> -----Original Message-----
> From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On 
> Behalf Of Randy Eckert
> Sent: Tuesday, April 22, 2008 7:50 PM
> To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] cooling alternatives
> 
> http://www.brilliantcooler.com/air-coolers-fujitronic-fh776t.htm
> look at this one.
> 
> On Tue, Apr 22, 2008 at 2:24 PM, Doug Weathers <[email protected]>
wrote:
> 
> >
> >


> Peter VanDerWal wrote:
> > >
> > > > It occurs to me that a two stage cooler might be a good idea.
> > > > Dump salt on ice and run the super cooled saltwater through a
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Driving the existing AC unit is a viable option. Most car AC units are
way too big for the actual cooling needed though. 

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On
Behalf Of Brian Pikkula
Sent: Wednesday, April 23, 2008 0:04
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] cooling alternatives

> to let the warm moisture-laden
> air out. Otherwise the air saturates and no more cooling takes
place.

In humid climates, like Houston, swamp coolers are nonexistent. The
last thing I want in my car or home is more humidity! In the summers
you can actually see the humidity (no, it's not the smog.)

I'll just be powering my stock A/C with a 130V treadmill motor. I'll
hopefully design it so that it can be easily replaceable and have a
couple extra on hand just in case.

Brian



On Tue, Apr 22, 2008 at 9:28 PM, Doug Weathers <[email protected]>
wrote:
>
>


> Chad Gray wrote:
> >
> > > Something similar. Little bit more compact.
> > >
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Wow I never thought of doing that. It would take a couple hours to
freeze the liquid but then you could use it during the hot time of the
day and not have to run the AC compressor. Hmmmmm. Maybe I will have
to try that. 

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On
Behalf Of Jeff Shanab
Sent: Tuesday, April 22, 2008 21:33
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [EVDL] cooling alternatives

38 degrees, we used to make icecream that way, so I know it can get
cold.

But what a mess. The reason for the bottles is to actually slow the
cooling and have cool, not cold, but dryer air lasting longer.

How I got started on this idea was actually from an idea for my house.
I have even considered getting that .05/kwh power that you can get here
from midnight to 7am and freezing a hundred or so (actually varing
sizes) to serve as time shifted A/C in my house. Large buildings and
schools are required by law to do that here.

Look at http://www.cryogel.com/

I remember seeing a church that had two square tanks full of these.

I did the calculations and a 17 foot long insulated box 18x24 would fit
under my windows along one wall of my house and provide the same cooling
capacity as 2 days of my AC. If cooling is done with say Ammonia
Absorption, then the energy cost can be really low. I would suck air
from one window, through the box and into the other window that would
shoot right down the hall.

To test this theory I came up with the idea of testing it in my EV this
summer with the diet coke bottles (anyone who knows me knows I have lots
of them around)

_______________________________________________
For subscription options, see
http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev

_______________________________________________
For subscription options, see
http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Just don't forget that with a salted-ice cooling system you'll have to
use a transfer fluid that doesn't freeze when it goes below 0 C. Salt
water actually fits this bill but so do the various glycol mixes that
have been discussed. I had line-freezing issues when I tried to pump
water around regular ice for an ogre costume cooling rig. In the
middle of summer in Texas is not the time to be wearing furs and a
horned helmet...

I think he actually humped my leg the first time we turned that pump on. } ; ]

Trot, the chillin, fox...

On Wed, Apr 23, 2008 at 8:08 AM, Dewey, Jody R ATC COMNAVAIRLANT,


> N422G5G <[email protected]> wrote:
> > The salt I was mentioning was only to make the ice melt faster. Ice
> > water pumped from the bottom of the cooler through a simple evaporator
> > core would work fine and be an very simple mechanism. If you are
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

A tip for DIY'ers, look for "donjoy cold therapy" or "breg cold therapy" at a major online auction site. These are made to pump ice cold water into pads wrapped around injured joints. Insurance pays for 'em the first time, then the patient sells them for a fraction of their cost for cash. Win. 

Attach the pad to the back of your seat, drop frozen 1 or 2 liter pop bottles in, add tap water to cover the bottles, apply 12Vdc and remove excess heat from your body. Keep extra bottles in your home and work freezer, swap out as needed. 

For total DIY, get some 1/4" nylon mesh, weave 6 feet of 1/4" drip irrigation tubing in a it and strap to the back of the seat. 12v bilge pump will power 2 or more seats. It's not easy finding small quantities of valves or reducers but it's all low pressure. The cooling grid will sometimes condense moisture from humid air but it's easier to deal with than sweat. 

-Harry
_______________________________________________
For subscription options, see
http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

In south western BC (Pacific Northwest) we don't have the huge heat
issues that some of the interior and southern parts of the continent
have. I find if I leave a window open an 1/8 of an inch and put those
bubble wrap heat reflectors in the windows my car is quite comfortable
when I come back after it's been sitting in the sun for a day.

I was thinking to improve on this a small solar powered fan to circulate
hot air out of the cabin would improve the effectiveness of the system.
My biggest need for the air conditioner is to remove moisture on cool
mornings where my windows fog up from the moisture of the passengers
breathing. I don't see a swamp or evaporative cooling working in this
environment at all.

Here's my pie in the sky thoughts if I could re-build the air
circulation system I would investigate a heat exchanger, a box with
moisture absorbing Silica Gel crystals, and an efficient heat pump A/C
system. Fresh air would come in and be pre-heated or cooled by the heat
exchanger and mixed with cabin air. The re-circulated air would have
excess moisture removed by the crystals and then any additional cooling
or heating added as necessary. The crystals could be dried out
(regenerated) while plugged in for charging with a small heater in the
box. The same heater could maybe start circulating warm dry air in the
car cabin 1/2 hour before I usually leave on a cold morning to pre-heat
the cabin and de-ice the windows. Likewise while plugged in the heat
pump could come on powered by shore power to assist in adjusting the
cabin temperature if it was too high or low around my normal commute
times.

Another thought I had was that some paint's are better at reflecting
infrared heat than others. I doubt that car manufacturers actually test
or include additives to improve on this but it would be possible. I
know we use infrared bar code readers in some applications and that some
white backgrounds are actually black to the scanner and can't be used.

Lawrence

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On
Behalf Of Harry Houck
Sent: Thursday, April 24, 2008 8:51 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [EVDL] cooling alternatives

A tip for DIY'ers, look for "donjoy cold therapy" or "breg cold therapy"
at a major online auction site. These are made to pump ice cold water
into pads wrapped around injured joints. Insurance pays for 'em the
first time, then the patient sells them for a fraction of their cost for
cash. Win. 

Attach the pad to the back of your seat, drop frozen 1 or 2 liter pop
bottles in, add tap water to cover the bottles, apply 12Vdc and remove
excess heat from your body. Keep extra bottles in your home and work
freezer, swap out as needed. 

For total DIY, get some 1/4" nylon mesh, weave 6 feet of 1/4" drip
irrigation tubing in a it and strap to the back of the seat. 12v bilge
pump will power 2 or more seats. It's not easy finding small quantities
of valves or reducers but it's all low pressure. The cooling grid will
sometimes condense moisture from humid air but it's easier to deal with
than sweat. 

-Harry
_______________________________________________
For subscription options, see
http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev


_______________________________________________
For subscription options, see
http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Brian Pikkula <[email protected]> wrote:
> > > to let the warm moisture-laden
> > > air out. Otherwise the air saturates and no more cooling takes place.
> >
> ...


----------

