# AC-31 v/s AC-45



## frodus (Apr 12, 2008)

Unfortunately, no AC45 from HPEVS. HPEVS themselves confirm that. 

Where did you find the info on Azure?

Here's a pic and graph of the ac31 from Miles.
http://www.hpevs.com/catalog-ac-31.htm

[can't upload images on this computer]


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## HPEVS (Jun 6, 2012)

67BGTEV said:


> I'm new to the forum and I wanted to start a new thread regarding the AC-45. Before I joined this forum, I had bought AC-45 and Curtis 1238-6501 from Cruisin.
> Major claims that AC-45 is nothing but a AC-31 and I was trying to find the Pictures and Specs of AC-31.
> Could someone share specs and more details about AC31? Cruisin may very well be using the graphs from HPEVs, I'm assuming he may not be as techy to generate these graphs himself.
> 
> ...


 67BGTEV,

You can find pictures of the motor and the dyno curves on our web site www.hpevs.com. Here you will find the original torque speed curve of the AC31 and the AC35 curve that was used in the eBay listing. Note: The motor picture may not be exactly what you bought since we had two different versions of the motor. One of them had the motor leads coming out through a slot near the drive end on the motor, the other had the leads coming out the other end. Still electrically the same motor. The AC35 however is a completely different motor inside.

We designed this motor for a low speed truck and a NEV car that Miles built from 2008 to 2009. It is built for low end torque and fairly low RPM since the vehicles had a max speed of 25 MPH and the motor ran between 3900 and 4500 RPM, depending on if it were in a truck or a car.

Let me be clear, this is a good motor when used in it's original or similar application. It has been used in some light weight on road vehicles with okay performance. My only issue with Cruisin is he has misrepresented the motor and has it listed as 82 HP and 130 lb ft of torque, when it clearly is not. You could run it on 144 volts to increase the horsepower, but it would still not be 82 HP. The best you could hope for is mid to low 70 HP range and 115 to 120 lb ft of torque on 144 volts.

When we called out cruisin on the the misleading rating and posted it on our web site, he changed his listing to read AC45 and pasted AC45 on our AC35 graph. Still doesn't change the fact that it is an AC31 motor that we built in 2008. Even if you look at the graph he has posted, it is not even close to the rating he is giving it in the eBay listing.

I think in the listing he is comparing it to the Azure AC24 motor, not saying it is.

Hope this clears it up for you.

Brian


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## 67BGTEV (Nov 1, 2013)

frodus said:


> Unfortunately, no AC45 from HPEVS. HPEVS themselves confirm that.
> 
> Where did you find the info on Azure?
> 
> ...


Thanks Frodus.. That image is forbidden though. Do u mind posting the image here?

Theere is the ebay listing of Cruisin mentioning Azure AC 45


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## frodus (Apr 12, 2008)

I think he's saying azure to increase hits.

Sorry about the pic, i can't upload here, and HPEVS must have linking disabled.


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## 67BGTEV (Nov 1, 2013)

Brian,
I agree with you on reusing the AC-35 graphs. Regarding AC-45 Azure, I've pasted the image. 
If you can share the the original Pictures of AC-31, that you sold to Miles, that would be great. Also can you let me know what is the weight of AC-31? I've the "AC-45" with me I want to compare not only the looks, but other physical things as well..

Appreciate your help.



HPEVS said:


> 67BGTEV,
> 
> You can find pictures of the motor and the dyno curves on our web site www.hpevs.com. Here you will find the original torque speed curve of the AC31 and the AC35 curve that was used in the eBay listing. Note: The motor picture may not be exactly what you bought since we had two different versions of the motor. One of them had the motor leads coming out through a slot near the drive end on the motor, the other had the leads coming out the other end. Still electrically the same motor. The AC35 however is a completely different motor inside.
> 
> ...


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## onegreenev (May 18, 2012)

He is mentioning Azure because he is saying that the Curtis AC controller has been used to power one of the Azure AC motors. Has nothing to do with the motor he is selling as the AC-45. He is using Azure to toss you off the issue of the motors he is selling. The header on his ebay listing is a tag listing to generate more hits.


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## onegreenev (May 18, 2012)

Here is another listing. He uses a tag line for his header. 

http://www.ebay.com/itm/NEW-3-Phase...961?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item2a335f4c89


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## 67BGTEV (Nov 1, 2013)

If I don't have any pictures of AC-31 and Weight information, its kind of what Al says v/s what Brian says. We can't conclude.. 
If HiPerfEV didn't make those Faces that are in "AC-45" then it makes it even harder for me to conclude. I'm sure Al is watching this thread as well..


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## onegreenev (May 18, 2012)

Brian IS HPEVS. Al is NOT. Trust Brian. Faces for the motors are for mounting purposes as are the different shafts. Nothing to do with the MOTORS. 

AC-31 was an early Motor Built for the Myers Electric Car. It is an NEV. The AC-31 is outdated and no longer supported. It is not an AC-34. Never has been an AC-34, EVER. Stealing the Graphs could be an illegal act. Pasted over labels does not change that fact. Misrepresenting
the motor as something its not is criminal and low. 

If its an AC 31 then sell it as an AC-31 that is a Good motor in its own right but was only meant for industrial carts and Nev vehicles. Low speed vehicles. Misrepresenting the power is not good either. Do a proper power curve for the controller used. Hint Hint for you Crusin.


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## onegreenev (May 18, 2012)

JRP3 has one in his Fiero. Looks like it would more than do for a Bug if you coupled the 120 volt controller with 630 amps. Or the 144 volt and 500 amp controller. But its still not an AC-45. It is an AC-31.


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## HPEVS (Jun 6, 2012)

67BGTEV said:


> If I don't have any pictures of AC-31 and Weight information, its kind of what Al says v/s what Brian says. We can't conclude..
> If HiPerfEV didn't make those Faces that are in "AC-45" then it makes it even harder for me to conclude. I'm sure Al is watching this thread as well..



The weight is around 85 pounds, but so is the AC24 by Azure. The Azure motor has an aluminum frame. I'm not real good at pasting links in the forum, but there is a guy selling them on eBay with pictures. If you go on our web site, there are all kinds of pictures of the motors we build, the resemblance is obvious. 

The adapter on the end of the motor cruisin is selling is the Miles trans adapter that has been machined down.

I'm going to be very careful what I say here, I won't get in to a huge debate on it again. I'm just here to show the actual data for the motor, not argue over who did or didn't build it, I already know the answer to that.


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## 67BGTEV (Nov 1, 2013)

_I'm not questioning any of these things, but simply putting what I read and understood_
Thanks Brian for the information. It may be very well from the Miles trucks and it may be AC-31. There is no reference to any relation between AC-31 and Miles Trucks and it appears that you officially can not make a affirmative statement about it either. 

onegreenev-
If there is any breach of material/information or misrepresenting HiPerfEV, I'm sure HiPerfEV will take a legal action against Al. I would leave it up to them. I'm not saying I don't trust Brian, without any prof of documents or information or affirmative statements, it is going to be hear-say.

I'm not defending anyone here and I'm a plausible misguided consumer. Without any evidence its going to be hear-say and I'm hanging in here frustrated to know what I got is not better than AC-50, which cruisin claims it is. I've to wait until I put it in the car and drive it to confirm, if it is or isn't..


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## onegreenev (May 18, 2012)

Its an OLD OBSOLETE motor. Why would you expect him to have current information?


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## Hollie Maea (Dec 9, 2009)

67BGTEV said:


> If I don't have any pictures of AC-31 and Weight information, its kind of what Al says v/s what Brian says. We can't conclude..
> If HiPerfEV didn't make those Faces that are in "AC-45" then it makes it even harder for me to conclude. I'm sure Al is watching this thread as well..


Yeah, who to trust, right? On the one hand you have the manufacturer, who is well trusted and has a long track record, and who has dealt with dozens on this forum. But on the other hand, you have a serial fraudster.

So, you know, tough choices and all that.


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## tomofreno (Mar 3, 2009)

This is what an AC31 looks like:
View attachment AC31-01-1 (03-03-09).pdf


Look familiar?


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## tomofreno (Mar 3, 2009)

Here is a comparison in wheel torque for the AC31 and AC50, first of 3 graphs, which you would have found had you bothered to do a search on AC31:
http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showpost.php?p=253358&postcount=311
Acceleration is proportional to wheel torque so you can see the car will accelerate faster with an AC50. The "knee" Brian referred to is where the torque starts dropping off in a given gear, although it is usually shown as motor torque versus motor rpm, but you can relate motor rpm to vehicle speed knowing gearing and tire dynamic radius. The knee is lower for the AC31 compared to the AC50. That is what limits it to lower peak power (power is the product of motor torque and rpm, and some constants).

Estimated (calculated) acceleration 0 to 60 is about 15 sec (actual was measured at 16 sec) with the AC50, and 19 seconds with the AC31, both using the 1238-7601 550A peak controller in the Swift. Would be about 18% better with the 650 A controller, so I would guess around 16 - 17 sec for the AC31. That's not as bad as an Azure AC24, so things could be worse.


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## tomofreno (Mar 3, 2009)

Had you searched you might also have found this thread by your buddy cruisin:
http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forum...and-650amp-56754.html?&highlight=cruisin+AC50
That photo look familiar? AC31, AC50, or Azure AC45? Hint: Azure never made a motor named AC45.


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## 67BGTEV (Nov 1, 2013)

Thanks for the insight in to the torque and rpm. Appreciate the estimation on the 0 to 60.. It will be interesting to see how it really does it in my conversion.

He used to sell the AC-50 and you all know it better than I do.

I want to make it VERY clear to everyone who hate cruisin, may be for a reason that I'm NOT covering him and I'm not questioning you, but asking for evidence. I'm not saying I don't trust any of you, but again asking you to show some evidence for what you are saying. 

May be Cruisin knows you don't have any evidence to show what you gusy ae claiming and he continues to do what he does. He may also know HiPerfEV can't do anything to him, as its him v/s HiPerfEV without any evidence, which don't stand in the Court of Law. Its frustrating for me..


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

People have the right to buy and sell stuff. Some people will say whatever they want to sell it even to the point of making up a new part number, plagiarism and claiming exaggerated specifications. It's the salesman's trade: Do whatever is necessary to get your money. 

Cruisin has demonstrated on this board and others, over the past 4 years that he is the type who is only interested in the sale and does not let the facts, truth or decency stand in his way. He is banned from this board, under several assumed ID's. 

His behavior is obvious to anyone who is experienced in the field. He takes advantage of newcomers like you. You can claim he has misrepresented the goods which he sold you. Big deal. Happens all the time. Even if you can prove it, there is no reasonable recourse for you. 

I suspect the goods you purchased from him will function. It is safe to say it will not perform to the level he has stated. Even if you were to dynamometer test, document and certify that, you would have difficulty holding him accountable. 

He claims to offer customer support. We have seen a few dissatisfied with his support. We know better than to deal with his type. We don't like his behavior, but all we can do is warn people and diminish his reputation.


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## tomofreno (Mar 3, 2009)

67BGTEV said:


> Thanks for the insight in to the torque and rpm...


You're welcome cruisin.


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

tomofreno said:


> You're welcome cruisin.


Hmmmm 

And: 



67BGTEV said:


> Major claims that AC-45 is nothing but a AC-31.........


I never made such a claim.


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## HPEVS (Jun 6, 2012)

Hmm, starting to look Al too familiar. No, that was not a typo.

68BGTEV, if you are ever in the So Cal area, please stop by to take a tour of our facility and go for a drive in our cars. We will also show you what our main stream business is, utility vehicles. You will see the motors being wound, assembled and tested. We can also give you a demonstration of our dyno. We welcome visitors and encourage the visits.

This will be my last word on this thread. Thanks to all for your support, you're awesome.

Brian


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## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

major said:


> ...Cruisin has demonstrated on this board and others, over the past 4 years that he is the type who is only interested in the sale and does not let the facts, truth or decency stand in his way. He is banned from this board, under several assumed ID's.


FWIW, I reported one of this guy's posts with a request that his IP be checked against other users, in particular the infamous "cruisin".


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## 67BGTEV (Nov 1, 2013)

Brian, I know HPEVS well and might (poor memory) have spoken to you many times as well. I had decided to go with AC-51 and ran into this _"AC-45"_. Cruisin claims its performance is better than AC-35 or AC-50 and I decided to go with _AC-45_.

others who just want to bitch about Cruisin, I think u start a new thread. Its not helping me. If any of you have any question abt my identity, I can meet u, if u r in SFBay..


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## onegreenev (May 18, 2012)

You know Cruisin, Its just fine to let people know the motors are old stock AC-31 motors and if you want to run them with a more powerful controller they would make a bit more power than with the stock setup. I am also quite sure they would be adequate for a little Bug if you don't mind stock VW performance. Nothing wrong with that. 

When you claim its more than what it is then there's a problem. 

Interesting set of tags for this thread



> ac-31, ac-35, ac-45, cruisin, curtis 1238-6501


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## 67BGTEV (Nov 1, 2013)

I remembered this long thread and wanted to update y'all. 

My 67 MGB GT has been running ok and have done nearly 20k miles. HPEVS has installed internal speed sensor, after the external sensors have failed few times and it's been running fine after the internal swap.. 

I'm getting 0 to 60mph about 17 - 19 secs.

I feel lack of power, compared to production EVs.


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## onegreenev (May 18, 2012)

I would never expect a motor like this to compare to a production EV. What voltage and what current are you using with the motor? External Encoder Sensor is more prone to exposure damage. Sounds like a normal power expectation. Leaf is much more powerful and remember the Leaf is a much higher voltage system. I like the Fiat 500e. Good power but a little touchy when you get on it hard. A hard torque steer.


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

67BGTEV said:


> I remembered this long thread and wanted to update y'all.
> 
> My 67 MGB GT has been running ok and have done nearly 20k miles. HPEVS has installed internal speed sensor, after the external sensors have failed few times and it's been running fine after the internal swap..
> 
> ...


Nice to hear from you. Glad the motor worked as well as it did. Thanks for remembering us at diy. 

Regards,
major


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## 67BGTEV (Nov 1, 2013)

onegreenev said:


> I would never expect a motor like this to compare to a production EV. What voltage and what current are you using with the motor? External Encoder Sensor is more prone to exposure damage. Sounds like a normal power expectation. Leaf is much more powerful and remember the Leaf is a much higher voltage system. I like the Fiat 500e. Good power but a little touchy when you get on it hard. A hard torque steer.


Since I'm using Curtis 1238r, it's input range is 72-130V. My Pack voltage is 118v to 130v. 

Output is 96V, I believe.


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