# Re: [EVDL] What is in a Zilla controller ? Why do they sell for $2K ?



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] What is in a Zilla controller ? Why do they sell for $2K ?*



> me2 wrote:
> >
> > I'm an electronics guy. What is in a Zilla controller ? I'm guessing a
> > wad of MOSFETs operating on the low side of the motor with Hall Effect
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] What is in a Zilla controller ? Why do they sell for $2K ?*

they also use IGBT's and have the highest voltage of any controller
out there... as well as one of the highest current carrying
capabilities.

Alltrax, curtis and kelly were designed for forklifts and golf carts, not EV's.



> JRP3 <[email protected]> wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] What is in a Zilla controller ? Why do they sell for $2K ?*

Try to implement that handling 1000 amps or more while switching at 
>15kHz (so its silent) with cycle by cycle current limiting (because 
a series wound motor pretty much looks like a dead short at low 
rpms.) Toss in the control needed for variable power and the safety 
stuff required to consider releasing it to the streets (for example, 
the Zilla is never quite 100% on, as it checks for shorted IGBTs even 
at full throttle) and be sure to include the packaging and cooling 
provisions required to mount it under the hood of a motor vehicle.

That controller is a good deal! I own one  I own a Curtis too - 
but it blew up (way to slow on current limit at low rpms.)

Paul Gooch



> JRP3 wrote:
> 
> > me2 wrote:
> >>
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] What is in a Zilla controller ? Why do they sell for $2K ?*

I use a Zilla 1K in my conversion and am very happy I do. 
Others in our Seattle EV Assn have had their Curtis controller fail in the full-on condition resulting in more loss than just the controller. I've yet to hear about the Zilla failing full-on.
Plus the ability to configure the settings via serial terminal is very handy. And you can add the new fangled software and monitor the controller performance real time. IMO its the best DC controller presently on the market.
Randy
2001 GMC Sonoma DC EV Conversion
> Date: Sat, 1 Mar 2008 15:08:50 -0800> From: [email protected]> To: [email protected]> Subject: Re: [EVDL] What is in a Zilla controller ? Why do they sell for $2K ?> > > > > me2 wrote:> > > > I'm an electronics guy. What is in a Zilla controller ? I'm guessing a> > wad of MOSFETs operating on the low side of the motor with Hall Effect> > current detection and a micro controller to watch for things. > > > > Am I right ? Why do they sell for $2K ?> > > > > Probably because they are the best thing out there right now, and demand is> greater than supply?> -- > View this message in context: http://www.nabble.com/What-is-in-a-Zilla-controller----Why-do-they-sell-for-%242K---tp15724602p15782092.html> Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at Nabble.com.> > _______________________________________________> For subscription options, see> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] What is in a Zilla controller ? Why do they sell for $2K ?*

I'm not an electronics guy, but based on what I've read here and there over
the past five years or so, building a high voltage, high current
chopper-type controller is harder than people think. They tend to blow up a
lot for some reason. That means that they have to be both over-spec'd and
over designed, and also there is little margin for manufacturing error. 
Couple that with low production volume, add in the extra's included for
idiot-proofing and I don't think anyone's getting rich off of Zillas at this
point. 




> me2 wrote:
> >
> > I'm an electronics guy. What is in a Zilla controller ? I'm guessing a
> > wad of MOSFETs operating on the low side of the motor with Hall Effect
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] What is in a Zilla controller ? Why do they sell for $2K ?*

I believe the zilla controller will have IGBT's in them. I am also an
Electronic Engineering Tech and have been looking into converting an S10
pickup into a fully electric vehicle. I would like to make my own
controller. I am starting an open source information group on yahoo called
evcs stands for electric vehicle controller system. Anyone who has
electronic knowledge and wishes to join up is welcome. If you check out the
other group called the osmc I am going to do something similar to that,
except their DC motor controller is for robots and the one at evcs will be
for a car, so it will involve IGBT's



> me2 wrote:
> >
> > I'm an electronics guy. What is in a Zilla controller ? I'm guessing a
> > wad of MOSFETs operating on the low side of the motor with Hall Effect
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] What is in a Zilla controller ? Why do they sell for $2K ?*

When I first started out, which wasn't too long ago, I had the same question.

I am an electronics engineer and figured I could design and build a 
controller. I even bought a 1700 Volt 2400 Amp, IGBT from eBay as I researched the 
project. The long waiting time for a Zilla only fueled my passion to build my 
own. After a few rounds of discussions on this list I began to realize that 
building a controller that could handle 300 Volts at 1000 Amps was NOT a 
"trivial pursuit". We are talking about a lot of power here. Some how I found 
a Zilla Z1K-HV that was in stock and I decided to buy it. (When I heard of 
this in stock unit I was very skeptical about its legitimacy so I contacted 
Cafe Electric to make sure it was real, and it was. It hurt my pride a bit to 
buy rather than design my own and it hurt my pocket book too. But now that's 
I have done it. I can whole heartedly say it was the right thing for ME to 
do. You may be in another situation, but I was working rapidly on my EV 
conversion. I soon realized that designing my own controller was going to take a 
LONG time and I didn't want my project to be delayed. The Zilla not only can 
handle the power but does so with many built in safety factors. It has may 
programmable features as well an in my opinion IS worth the price.

Now that I learned the controller lesson, my next question is will I learn 
the charger lesson? I now figure I CAN build a smart charger myself 0 - 300 
VDC at 30 Amps. It is taking a LONG time but since I already have a manual 
charger that does work, I am still trying to build my own. Every once in a 
while I start thinking about buying a PFC-30, but some how I can't justify the 
price.... yet!

Re: [EVDL] What is in a Zilla controller ? Why do they sell
for $2K ?




Thank you,

Dave Delman
1981 Electric DeLorean Project
electricdelorean.com



**************Ideas to please picky eaters. Watch video on AOL Living. 
(http://living.aol.com/video/how-to-please-your-picky-eater/rachel-campos-duffy/
2050827?NCID=aolcmp00300000002598)
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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] What is in a Zilla controller ? Why do they sell for $2K ?*

The Zilla's are built here in the US by one of US, Otmar is one of us...not a big electronics conglomerate that happens to make motor controllers. He is an EV enthusiast who has the skills and knowledge to build controllers, and he built it for us. He did it because he saw a need for a better product than the golf cart controllers that were available to us from other sources....and he makes a superior product. It may not be an industrial controller either, But those are much more expensive (like the better Brusa controllers from Victor at Metric Mind).

He has found a niche market, where he can sell a decent product at a price where he can make a meager profit...His hands actually have been inside them (unlike the sales rep from curtis, or someplace else) so we have a more direct line to tech support and repair. He owns the company so his motivation to keep folks happy is more directly tied in to the product than an hourly sales rep too...he stands behind his product...literally!

Zilla's are a bargain....perhaps at double the cost if you look at the bigger picture.
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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] What is in a Zilla controller ? Why do they sell for $2K ?*



> JRP3 wrote:
> > me2 wrote:
> >
> >> I'm an electronics guy. What is in a Zilla controller ? I'm guessing a
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] What is in a Zilla controller ? Why do they sell for $2K ?*



> JRP3 wrote:
> > me2 wrote:
> > Dan Frederickson wrote:
> 
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] What is in a Zilla controller ? Why do they sell for $2K ?*

In most conversions, I will mention that the Zilla adds the ECM
component for the controller also. It has stored error codes which can
be used to determine if for example your 12V start signal has gone
missing or ... Just plug in a notebook and read with a terminal
program(minicom,hyperterminal etc) It has a data aquisition mode where
you drive with the notebook connected and the ability to set battery and
motor amperages and voltage, even a "valet" set of settings to limit
it's sometines awsome power for individuals using your car that don't
know about instant torque.

It has input for an RPM sensor that can save your motor. (If you install
it  )

http://hitorqueelectric.com/gallery/v/ouch/Blown+Commutators/?g2_GALLERYSID=415501b6a5650f46c64b7fb90102980a

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] What is in a Zilla controller ? Why do they sell for $2K ?*



> Dan Frederiksen wrote:
> > JRP3 wrote:
> >
> >> me2 wrote:
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] What is in a Zilla controller ? Why do they sell for $2K ?*



> Randy Richmond wrote:
> [snip]
> > Plus the ability to
> > configure the settings via serial terminal is very handy. And you can
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] What is in a Zilla controller ? Why do they sell for $2K ?*

I agree about the prattle on this subject. I'd bet if he made a 
controller as good or better than a zilla he'd hide his trade secrets 
too and charge a mint. I doubt that the open source guys won't make a 
controller as good. With open source it is hard to get every one on 
the same page. Everyone wants their stuff and really don't want 
others to have it because if it's that good they won't make a dime 
off their work. Can't blame them. I don't work for free either.

Pete : )

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] What is in a Zilla controller ? Why do they sell for $2K ?*

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] What is in a Zilla controller ? Why do they sell for $2K ?*

Why don't all the people who are COMPLAINING about the price, or
arguing about it one way or another, go make their own controller?

Thats what I'm doing, trying to help some guys in Portland with...and
so far its working pretty well. There are people who talk, and there
are people who DO. Arguing about the details that many here know
nothing about is futile. In the end, its just uneducated bicker.

Its not as easy as it looks, a lot of time and development go into
designing the board, trying to get rid of EMI, eddy currents... as
well as other issues that pop up along the way. Its not rocket
science, but it is an art. Sure you can throw some parts together,
throw some PWM at them and get some current flowing. But when you are
throwing the power and voltage that EV'rs do at a controller, it
changes EVERYTHING. Parts must be chosen carefully, and within
tolerances that match the design. Then there's programming it,
packaging, and paying for the development of several previous
prototypes.

Unless you have a product out there that people are using, let this
thread die. Otmar is one of the ONLY EV guys that is building a
commercially available controller. Sure some people have developed
their own, but do we see it on a website to buy? No. Why is that?
because its not as easy as it looks.

The reason I'm adding 2 cents in, is because I am being part of the
development of another controller... not talking about "how nice it
would be if....."

Let this thread die like it should have several days ago.




> Otmar <[email protected]> wrote:
> >
> >
> > Alan Petrillo wrote:
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] What is in a Zilla controller ? Why do they sell for $2K ?*



> On 2 Mar 2008 at 7:29, Dan Frederiksen wrote:
> 
> > I see this post by me2 in the reply but I don't see the post from me2
> > itself. this has heppened in another thread as well. is something wrong
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] What is in a Zilla controller ? Why do they sell for $2K ?*

*What is in a Zilla controller ? Why do they sell for $2K ?*

this question as already been answered, here it is an oppened Zilla:

http://www.koreus.com/video/hamster-super-rapide.html

now you know why

Philippe
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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] What is in a Zilla controller ? Why do they sell for $2K ?*



> Alan Petrillo wrote:
> > I've seen a lot of equipment that uses a "serial terminal" for
> > configuration, even though fewer and fewer laptops are coming with
> > serial ports. I suppose you could connect to them using a USB to Serial
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] What is in a Zilla controller ? Why do they sell for $2K ?*

>The first is complexity. USB is at least an order of magnitude more 
>complex than RS-232.

True, but I've made a number of boards using FTDI's USB to 8 bit parallel
FIFO chip.

It really make it easy as pie, and drivers are already complete for Windows,
Linux, and OS-X. For Linux the drivers are already integrated into the
kernel, just plug the thing in and you get a /dev/ttyUSBx node and you can
talk to your board with a standard terminal program if you use ASCII
communication.

I get throughput of about 800K bytes / sec.

http://www.ftdichip.com/Products/FT245BM.htm

They also make a USB to serial chip, lower throughput but connects straight
to the micro controller's serial port.

http://www.ftdichip.com/Products/FT232BM.htm

I personally like the FIFO chip better because you don't have to worry about
having a precise oscillator (XTAL) on the micro, and you don't have to worry
about baud rate, parity, etc.

I've used the USB FIFO and recommend it.

Fran

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] What is in a Zilla controller ? Why do they sell for $2K ?*



> vehiculeselectriques.free.fr wrote:
> > http://www.koreus.com/video/hamster-super-rapide.html
> > now you know why
> >
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] What is in a Zilla controller ? Why do they sell for $2K ?*



> Travis Gintz wrote:
> > Why don't all the people who are COMPLAINING about the price, or
> > arguing about it one way or another, go make their own controller?
> >
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] What is in a Zilla controller ? Why do they sell for $2K ?*

>The first is complexity. USB is at least an order of magnitude more 
>complex than RS-232. A microcomputer is required to communicate. This 
>increases the design time, requires more complex circuitry, more 
>software development, etc. It takes time away from designing the actual 
>product itself.


In automotives, there are entrenched standards (CAN, ISO14230), so
that's what we use. Then we make a USB-to-CAN/ISO14230 converter box.
We have had people ask for USB right on the ECM itself.
The USB signals will not survive going through an automotive-style
connector. We have used the RS232 to USB converter boxes without
consistent luck - may of them do not support generating a 'BREAK'
signal, nor any of the baud rates that are not part of the usual
sequence. A lot of them will not do 10.4 kbps which is the ISO14230
standard speed. Without the ability to generate a 'BREAK' or the
correct baud rate, they didn't work so we had to design our own
converter box.

An advantage of using ISO14230 or CAN (at least the new ISO CAN
OBD standard) on a controller is you can use pretty much any generic
scan tool to read trouble codes and some data. For example, if you
want to see if the accelerator pedal sensor is toasted, you can just
grab a normal scan tool - the same one you have at your local garage,
and look for DTC's.


-Dale

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