# Lithium batteries drop-in replacement for lead batteries



## jumpjack (Sep 9, 2012)

Any experience with these new batteries?
I read amazing features of *A123 ALM-12V7-B* batteries (12V/7Ah, 4C discharge, 2000 cycles at Dod100%, integrated BMS), but they're quite expensive (130$ each one).

Other brands?

I found "K2 Energy K2B12V7EB 12V 7Ah",... but aI think they're just a "clone", even in price...

I also found Valence (12V/40Ah 2C discharge) , but cannot find any retailer, can anybody help?
They have bot batteries with internal and external BMS, but can't find any price.

I can't instead figure out if Powerstream batteries have internal BMS or not.


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## PhantomPholly (Aug 20, 2008)

I notice in the description on their site that there is a glaring lack of mentioning automobiles in their list of "suitable uses."

Buyer beware.


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## jumpjack (Sep 9, 2012)

The "use" just depends on how many amperes for how long you ask to the battery.


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## Elithion (Oct 6, 2009)

> Lithium batteries drop-in replacement for lead batteries

Not as easy as one would think.

More and more people wish to replace their lead acid batteries with Li-ion batteries. 
Batteries that consists of just Li-ion cells are not a direct, drop in replacement for lead acid batteries. 
That is because they are somewhat different: 











In addition to the Li-ion cells, a Li-ion battery used to replace a Lead Acid battery requires: 

A Battery Management System (BMS)
A way for the BMS to stop charging when ANY cell is unable to accept any more current
A way for the BMS to stop discharging when ANY cell is unable to deliver any more current
 The problems with some systems that were originally designed for Lead acid are that: 


They have no provision to control and stop charging current
They have no provision to control and stop discharging current
They use the same path for charging and discharging
 Two separate paths are required because there are times when the battery is able to discharge, but not charge: 


Because a cell is full
Because it's warm enough for discharging, but too cold for charging
 Also, there are times when the battery is able to charge, but not discharge: 


Because a cell is empty
Because the output is overloaded
 
More...


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## jumpjack (Sep 9, 2012)

Elithion said:


> > Lithium batteries drop-in replacement for lead batteries
> 
> Not as easy as one would think.


Did you even read about the batteries I listed in my first post???


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## jumpjack (Sep 9, 2012)

jumpjack said:


> Did you even read about the batteries I listed in my first post???


Ops, sorry, I didn't notice your message was just unsolicited advertisement...


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## Elithion (Oct 6, 2009)

jumpjack said:


> Did you even read about the batteries I listed in my first post???


Yes I have. 


A123 ALM-12V7-BL Protected, cannot placed more than 4 in series, because the switch is not rated for more than 50 V, low level max current
K2 Energy K2B12V7EBL no BMS (just analog balancers), not protected, can be placed in series for higher voltages, though it will fail for lack of a BMS
Valence U-Charge® XP U1-12BMS: with BMS, not protected, can be placed in series for higher voltages, requires a master (not offered, you have to make your own) with a switch
PowerStream: BMS, protected, 40 A max discharge, cannot placed in series, because the switch is not rated for more than 12 V
I don't know your application, but I assume it's an EV. None of these batteries can be used for an Electric Vehicle traction pack.

Nor can they be used as a starter battery, or for a solar system. 

They either don't have a BMS, or have a BMS with no switch, or have a BMS with a switch that is rated for too low a voltage to be placed in series, or the switch is rated for too low a current to be a starter battery.


If used as lead acid replacement in most applications that visitors to this forum would be interested in, they will fail. 
So, as a service to you and others visiting, I offered a solution.

That solution I offered is BMS independent. It will work with a MiniBMS, or an Orion BMS, for example.
I had nothing but the most altruistic motives in mind when I offered my previous post, and I regret deeply that you may think otherwise.


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## jumpjack (Sep 9, 2012)

No, you didn't read:
A123 ALM-12V7-BL can be packed up to 4S10P as per datasheet.
K2 Energy K2B12V7EBL can tolerate only 2x series as per datasheet.

I'm investigating about other types.


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## Karter2 (Nov 17, 2011)

JumpJack
..why are you taking a swipe at someone who offered some sound information ?
Not the smartest way to encourage anyone to respond to your questions.


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## dragonsgate (May 19, 2012)

Karter2 said:


> JumpJack
> ..why are you taking a swipe at someone who offered some sound information ?
> Not the smartest way to encourage anyone to respond to your questions.


The first post interested me and Elithion’s reply was most informative. Then the electrodes hit the fan. I would like to see some more discussion on this so Jumpjack cool your diodes and stick to the facts.


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## rwaudio (May 22, 2008)

jumpjack said:


> Any experience with these new batteries?
> I read amazing features of *A123 ALM-12V7-B* batteries (12V/7Ah, 4C discharge, 2000 cycles at Dod100%, integrated BMS), but they're quite expensive (130$ each one).
> 
> Other brands?
> ...


If you let everyone know what your application is you would probably get more relevant information.


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## jumpjack (Sep 9, 2012)

Karter2 said:


> JumpJack
> ..why are you taking a swipe at someone who offered some sound information ?
> Not the smartest way to encourage anyone to respond to your questions.


He just said his batteries are better than others he does not even know, providing false data about the others, so I can't be interested on what he says... 



> If you let everyone know what your application is you would probably get more relevant information.


To bring an old SLA-based electric scooter to new life. 
It has 48V/40Ah SLA batteries, 48V/60A controller, 1800W brushless motor.

I didn't yet decide which range I want to obtain for it, I'm just investigating specs&costs before making any decision.
If possibile I'd like to provide it with multiple battery modules, so I can decide how many ones to mount on it depending on the range I need; but I need a minimum quantity of 40A discharge rate, so I need high discharge rate batteries, so I can use small batteries to get high currents.

A 4C capable battery would be nice, as I could mount a small 48V/10Ah pack and still be able to get the best out of the motor. This would mean just 480Wh, which means around 12 km on this scooter, which could be enough for somebody.


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

jumpjack said:


> He just said *his batteries* are better than others he does not even know, providing false data about the others, so I can't be interested on what he says...


*his batteries*..... What are his batteries? Davide (Elithion) does not sell batteries, to my knowledge, and I did not see him promote any battery in his responses. All I saw were helpful messages from an expert in the field and unappreciative rude remarks from you.


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## Elithion (Oct 6, 2009)

jumpjack said:


> To bring an old SLA-based electric scooter to new life. It has 48V/40Ah SLA batteries, 48V/60A controller...


Thank you, that is very helpful.

If you could please overlook the misgivings you expressed very well for just a minute, will you please consider my analysis?


A123 ALM-12V7-B: too low a current, will shut down
K2 Energy K2B12V7EBL at 4 C its 12 A, will "melt" at 60 A
Valence U-Charge® XP U1-12BMS: will work, but you have to have CAN bus and a switch that is controlled through the CAN messages (is it something you ca do / want to do?)
PowerStream: too low a voltage, will blow its switch at 48 V
Therefore, please accept my conclusion that none of the 12 V batteries you mention are a good fit for your application.
Again, if you could please accept for a moment that that my post is completely disinterested, I would suggest that you should consider using 40 Ah prismatic cells from one of the many vendors that offer them, placing 16 in series to get 48 V nominal. You may also want to consider adding a MiniBMS to protect the pack; while it is an extremely simple BMS, it is probably a good match in your case.

The best to you and your project.


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## jumpjack (Sep 9, 2012)

It is a 60A controller, but he motor is 1800W/48V=47A .
And I'n lokking only for batteries with integrated PCM, I have no time&money to experiment with different batteries, PCMs and BMSs to find the best coupling... 

Anyway thanks for the tips.

Has anybody experience on using SLA-replacement lithium batteries with integrated circuitry?


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## jumpjack (Sep 9, 2012)

Does anybody know this weird "LTE technology"? http://is.gd/battery2 They talk about lead-replacement-without-integrated-circuitry (click on CLICCA QUI at the bottom of the page to get a PDF (in italian)), because of very careful selection of materials... It does not appear realistic to me that a LiFePO4 battery can work without BMS/PCM just beacuse made of "very carefully selected materials", but what do you think about it?


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## Siwastaja (Aug 1, 2012)

jumpjack said:


> It does not appear realistic to me that a LiFePO4 battery can work without BMS/PCM just beacuse made of "very carefully selected materials", but what do you think about it?


Some people do just that. It is possible to top balance a battery carefully and charge it without monitoring cell level voltages. The fewer cells there are, the better it works. For a 12V battery with just 4 cells, it should work pretty well. AFAIK, most 12V monolithic LiFePO4 packs are just that, no BMS, no PCM.

But even if you get the charging right, you still have to manually beware of deep discharge. Just give enough leeway when discharging. An Ah counter is recommended.

This is of course only for LiFePO4 batteries. Other li-ion batteries pose a much stronger fire danger from just a tiny bit of overcharge, or charging a deep discharged (damaged) cell.


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## Karter2 (Nov 17, 2011)

I know you were looking for "drop in replacements" for 12 v batteries, but in reality, when you switch to LifePo4 you are better to look at something like a full 48V pack assembled with BMS etc.
Something like this..
http://www.pingbattery.com/servlet/StoreFront
A possible 12v option may be these..
http://www.osnpower.com/productID/product_detail-10206887.html


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## jumpjack (Sep 9, 2012)

Actually I'm looking for 48V and 60V packs, did'nt know they were already available, thanks.


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