# Sitting on the fence...DIY or buy OEM EV



## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

Hi
I have built my own scratch built EV, (and its great fun)
As you are thinking about a new car 
(Which means you are in a different market than I am)
I would advise getting a new EV
It will be much better as a "New Car" than a conversion will be 

Now if you are looking for a "toy" - something that is yours and reflects exactly what you want - go to it!

But it won't be as good as a new car 
Companies like Toyota (and Tesla) spend literally hundreds of millions developing cars
You can't do it for $100,000

Your "toy" can be better than a new car for certain aims - you can make a compromise that the car makers don't
But in doing that you will have to compromise other "new car" aims


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## steelneck (Apr 19, 2013)

I think the basic question is, regardless if we are talking about EVs or not: Are you a custom car builder?


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## dladd (Jun 1, 2011)

I love my EV. but it cost me more to build than a new Leaf would have cost, and has worse performance/range. 

And now that they have been out for a few years, you could pick up a used nice condition Leaf for less than it would cost you in batteries/components to build your own. 

Only an idiot would DIY, lol.


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## Sunking (Aug 10, 2009)

Just my two-cents worth. If you can afford a commercial EV that is the way to go.

DIY EV is not cheap, but less than a new commercial EV, but you will not get the performance of a commercial EV unless you have very deep pockets which will cost more than a commercial product.


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## awoodw (Dec 22, 2013)

I've been through pretty much the same thought process and reached pretty much the same conclusion. OEM EV's (can) cost less, (can) perform better, are more reliable, and are immediately available.


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## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

When doing the math for DIY vs new, remember that in ten years, cars are worth one tenth of their original price. A $30,000 car will be worth $3,000 in ten years. The other thing that will happen in ten years, is your battery Pack will be done for, and the replacement cost will exceed the value of your car. Another way to say this, is that in ten years your new EV will be totaled. A DIY conversion pack will be done for as well, but the components will still have value since they can go in other EVs or be liquidated for cash. In the oem EV, the parts will only fit other totaled oem EVs of the same make and model.


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

evmetro said:


> When doing the math for DIY vs new, remember that in ten years, cars are worth one tenth of their original price. A $30,000 car will be worth $3,000 in ten years. The other thing that will happen in ten years, is your battery Pack will be done for, and the replacement cost will exceed the value of your car. Another way to say this, is that in ten years your new EV will be totaled. A DIY conversion pack will be done for as well, but the components will still have value since they can go in other EVs or be liquidated for cash. In the oem EV, the parts will only fit other totaled oem EVs of the same make and model.


Not sure about that,
I suspect that in ten years much better motors controllers and chargers will be available to the DIY people
Besides some of us keep cars a bit longer - the wife's Merc is 16 years old


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## timk225 (Sep 19, 2014)

If you can lease the Ford Focus EV for $194 a month, maybe try that. 

Normally I see auto leases as a very bad deal, but in this case where you want to try an EV, it might be the thing to do.

Depending on how much you drive weekly or monthly, you could save enough in not buying gasoline to cover that $194 a month lease, relative to putting gas in a vehicle you already own. You'd still have to pay insurance costs, though.

194 a month in gas at $3.50 a gallon = 55.4 gallons per month, and assuming you have a 30 mpg car, that equals 1,662 miles per month or 19,954 miles per year.

If you have a 25 mpg car, the numbers to break even would be 1,385 and 16,620 miles per month / year.

EDIT - I just looked up the Focus EV. $194 a month is good, but you didn't mention the $3479.00 due at signing. That kind of blows my numbers out of the water and makes a far worse deal. I KNEW it sounded too good to be true!


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## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

Duncan said:


> Not sure about that,
> I suspect that in ten years much better motors controllers and chargers will be available to the DIY people
> Besides some of us keep cars a bit longer - the wife's Merc is 16 years old


Are you not sure if a new EV will be totaled in a decade, or if the conversion will be worth more than the total in a decade? I just built that conversion #2 in my signature out of old but universal EV components. That stuff might have been a decade or more old, but it saved me a bunch of money buying all new stuff. I don't know how realistic it would be to salvage EV components from a ten year old totaled Leaf, and I don't know about updating an expired Leaf with the latest technology. With my EV built with ancient parts, it was simple to integrate modern WIFI and Bluetooth instrumentation, and completely change the battery technology.

Duncan, another great point about a conversion vs new, is one that should ring true to you of all people. There is something special about standing back and looking at your ride and saying "I built that". I admire you for building your EV more than I would a guy who bought a whole fleet of new EVs. I know that this thread is about the dollars and cents, but what you have done is priceless. You are one of the guys who inspired me to DIY. I may have been able to get off of the pump for less if I had purchased new, but I would be driving around afraid of where the next J plug station might be, I would be waiting forever for my pack to charge, I would be paying literally ten times what I pay for registration, I would have to take my ride to the dealer every time it broke, I would not know how to work on it, and I would be at the mercy of others to have it fixed. I would also be paying for more watt hours per mile, no matter what new EV I would have gotten. Thanks so much Duncan for inspiring me to DIY. I can't imagine anything cheaper to own and drive than my DIY conversions.


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

Hi Evmetro

_I can't imagine anything cheaper to own and drive than my DIY conversions._

I enjoyed building my device - and I intend to build a Mk2
BUT - its not the cheapest!
The cheapest car would be a ten year old saloon

I think this boils down to what Steelneck asked
Are you a "custom car builder"

If you are then go to it!

If you are trying to own an EV on a very small budget - then DIY may be the only way

If you want an EV to drive around in comfort and you can afford it - buy a commercial EV


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## nimblemotors (Oct 1, 2010)

A lease is a very poor financial choice, it only makes sense when you compare it to even worse financial options, of buying a new car every 3-5 years.

If you want an OEM EV, then a used Leaf is the lowest cost option,
if you can get over their hideous appearance.
But frankly at over $10k ($15k) for one of those, a DIY can still be less.

Which brings us to the option not discussed, buying an existing DIY EV.
There are not a lot to choose from, but they are out there, and unfortunately selling for much less than it costs to build one.
http://www.evtradinpost.com/list/5

$7,700










And of course, you can get one that is a sweet car, like, um, a Porsche Boxster, not some ecobox.


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## Caps18 (Jun 8, 2008)

There are a lot of benefits to the DIY option. I just wish I had bought a 'kit', and one that was 100% complete at that. (The kits that are out there are close, but they should be more complete). I also wish I had purchased a donor truck that was in good shape. Restoring the truck is taking me longer than the conversion process.

Looking back, I think I should have tried to find a pre-converted vehicle from someone else. But, I doubt that would work very well. Why would someone want to sell the type of truck I want to make with the AC motor and newer components? 

Had Chevy or Ford offered a small pick-up truck that was electric or even a plug-in hybrid, it would have made my decision 10x harder. I have more money than time right now, and I could have been driving an OEM EV for 3-4 years now. I also would know that the engineering is well thought out and tested.

Now, this is an interesting hobby, and I have learned a lot from doing this that I wouldn't have received if I just went to the dealership. I think my conversion will turn out better in some regards than what the big automakers produce. There are a few products that are lacking in the DIY market though. Digital gauges are a big one that I worry about right now. I might have to brush off my graphical user interface coding skills to produce my own...


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## shock (Jul 16, 2011)

This may sound pretentious... but why not both?

I have a Model S (OK - that part may be pretentious to some, lol) but I also have a frame-up restoration/conversion in the garage. My wife says "why do you need two electric cars?" And I reply - "all my buddies have project cars, why can't mine be cooler?"

Buy something electric affordable, make your project car electric too...

Cheers!

Shock


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## sparkev (Oct 2, 2014)

It may not help if you are not on the West coast (compliance EV), but I LOVE my Spark EV. It is as some say, the poor man's Tesla. After Federal and State rebates, it's $17k - a freaking bargain.

It is a smaller car, but has four doors. For the money (cheaper than a Leaf), it looks better (in my opinion) and performs better (absolutely, look at any review) than the Leaf. The ride is quite adequate for a small short wheel based car. With 140 HP and 400 ft-lbs torque, it is Zippy! The handling is pretty good, but there is some torque steer when you step on it. Great efficiency - they rate it at 109 MPGe average. I get around 115 even though my commute is neighborhood streets uphill to work, downhill home. Recently I had to go far (60 miles) so I drove 60 mph on the freeway and got 135 MPGe: pretty efficient! The "confidence meter" (showing expected range with max, min and trend indicators) is really well designed and accurate.

The only issue I have had is with all the torque, even with the non-disable-able traction control (yes there is an off button, but it doesn't really turn it off), I burned through my first set of low rolling resistance tires in 8000 miles! I replaced them with summer performance Toyo tires since there is no snow where I live, ever. So far I am mighty impressed with that change, maybe only a few miles of reduced range, around 80, slipping is vastly reduced and handling much improved.

Anyway check out the Spark EV reviews. They almost doubled the HP over the gas version. Yes they added 500 lbs in batteries, but they lowered the CG 2 inches and re-tuned the suspension including wider tires on the rear. It isn't a Tesla roadster, but it is pretty fun to drive and super practical for roundtrip commutes under 50 miles. I rarely use more than half a tank and with a Level II charger at home, it recharges in about 2-1/2 hours (programmed for off-peak rates of course!).

I have an RX-7 3rd generation Rotary that I am thinking about converting. Now I am seriously thinking about buying another Spark EV, just to rip out the guts and retrofit. The only bad things about the Spark EV are front wheel drive and the lack of a limited slip differential! For $17k, it would be quite reasonable to buy just for the guts to put in a real sports car.

-- James


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## generatorlabs (May 31, 2014)

Let me start by commenting on the many posts regarding a lease as a bad choice. In the case of an EV I must wholeheartedly disagree. Let's examine the Ford Focus lease that I was looking at. The lease is $194 per month. The entire $7500 Federal rebate is passed thru the leasing company back down to the consumer ( it just shows up a a rebate in excess of $11,000 ). If I purchased the vehicle I do not think I would be able to realize the full $7500 deduction. Yes it is a deduction, not a refund. So if you do not have a tax liability in excess of $7500 dollars then you cannot claim the whole amount. If you had $5000 in taxes withheld from your paycheck and you owe the Feds $5000 at the end of the year, you essentially can only claim the $5000 you owe to the Feds. The rest vaporizes and you cannot carry it over or get extra. You basically lose $2000 in that deal. I know this is over simplifying the tax scenario for many but I am just drawing out a simple scenario.

Furthermore my State offers an additional $2000 rebate that is not passed down to the leasing company but the actual driver (regardless if it was leased or purchased)

Buying a used EV only makes sense if it is super cheap. There are no federal incentives on used vehicle that I am aware of.

Buying a used EV does not make sense unless it is super cheap. There are no incentive that can be applied to used EV's that I am aware of.

And finally at the conclusion of the lease you can purchase the remainder of the lease via financing at any local bank. If you lease for 3 years and purchase the tail end of the lease the car essentially costs you the same and at the end you own it. Most dealers sell cars on 5 to 6 years financing; leasing for 3 and financing the balance for 3 accomplishes the same thing. The lease payments are very low compared to a finance deal but all you have to do is bank a little extra cash every time you do a lease payment (to make it equivalent to a financing payment). At the conclusion of the lease you will have a nice chunk of change to put towards buying out the tail end of the lease. It is all a matter of financial discipline.

And the best part about the lease is if you hate the car after two years you get to walk or run away and move on to another & better vehicle.

Most people believe the cost of the vehicle is not negotiable when you enter a lease deal. That is not true. You can negotiate the price as though you were purchasing it outright and then apply that price to a lease.


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## generatorlabs (May 31, 2014)

sparkev said:


> It may not help if you are not on the West coast (compliance EV), but I LOVE my Spark EV. It is as some say, the poor man's Tesla. After Federal and State rebates, it's $17k - a freaking bargain.
> -- James


You know that the Spark is a nice vehicle for the price but I am a little disappointed that it is only available in Cali and Oregon. It is a car I would consider if I could get it on the East coast. I live in Myrtle Beach SC but I would even be willing to work with any dealer on the East coast to get a deal worked out (I was surprised I could not find a dealer in the DC area since they are so green in that region)

So at this point I am excitedly waiting for the VW e-golf to drop in November and I am also excited to see a Kia Soul EV. I have viewed many videos of the VW and I really like what I saw. It has a timeless design that has been refined over and over. This would not be VW's first EV and I believe they now manufacture their own batteries. The Kia has me weary for fear of inferior construction materials. That is something I must see first hand.

So in my mind I have my pecking order as:

a) VW e-Golf (timeless design but pricing is still not available from dealers)
b) Kia Soul EV (low projected price but construction could be low quality)
c) Ford Focus EV (great leasing options; trunk space is crap)
d) Chevy Spark (Great torque; Would be number 2 or number 1 if it was available locally)


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## sparkev (Oct 2, 2014)

generatorlabs said:


> In the case of an EV I must wholeheartedly disagree.


I agree. I did a 3 year lease on my Spark EV. I bundled tax and licensing into the lease so it ends up being $222/month all included. I paid $2300 to drive it off the lot, but got $2500 back CA state rebate. With the lack of maintenance and gas cost, it is pretty cheap to operate. Even the pair of tires I had to replace prematurely cost only $180 for the pair installed. I love not going to the gas station! I just installed solar, so the sun fills me up.

-- James


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## Sterling2015 (Jun 24, 2015)

In the middle of a DIY EV based on a 1970's Sterling kit and Standard Beetle chassis. Restored the frame and have updated suspension to replace the stock VW parts, supposed to handle like a Porsche if I can keep it light enough.

Looking at an EV West conversion turnkey kit, AC35x2 (dual) 144 volt, dual controllers included, 22 Kvh LiFePo pack, all hardware, electronics and cables included: (My only DIY option, I'm not an electrical engineer.)
Roughly $25,000. 

+2500 car, 10,000 suspension and transaxle upgrades, 3000 in tools, materials, 1 year of part time labor, about a $50,000 project for a one of a kind custom EV sports car.

I'd rather just retire, sell the house, buy a Tesla P85D, tour the states on free SuperCharger power and live off my pension and social security.

When I die, my family gets a cool Tesla.


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