# Why did they send 2 Contactors?



## major (Apr 4, 2008)

ruckus said:


> I got a "package" deal from a now defunct EV supplier who no longer responds with tech help. They sent 2 kilovac contactors. I know 1 goes between the bat and the controller for use with the key/ignition switch. (zilla hairball)
> 
> The 2nd contactor goes where? Here are possibilities I came up with:
> 
> ...


Hi ruck,

Ideas? Read the manual http://cafeelectric.com/downloads/HB202.pdf

Page 23 has a nice schematic. Where it shows a disconnect, you could use the other contactor, or put it in the battery negative feed.

The hairball does the precharge, no external resistor required.

If you have the Kilovac EV200 contactors, there are no snubbers. But probably the coil economizer circuits. http://relays.tycoelectronics.com/datasheets/ev200.pdf 

Regards,

major


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## ruckus (Apr 15, 2009)

Thanks for the links.

coil economizer circuits? please do tell...

-have been pouring over the manual for months. Page 23 is quite grubby and wrinkled by now. (does anybody else notice the floating "tach" with no wires?)

Sounds like emergency disconnect is the likely purpose. You also suggest putting (as emergency disconnect) in the neg line. Is this a good practice?

I see some diagrams with the disconnect halfway through the pack, and others have it right next to the fuse or even bolted to the fuse. Could I save on wire/lugs and just bolt the fuse and contactors in line? -contactor-fuse-emergencycontactor-batt+. do they need to be right next to the controller or can they be more by the batts?

also, why no threads in the zilla lugs? wouldn't those help contact area? The manual gives no instructions for major lug connection protocol. Surely this is of great importance to controller/vehicle performance/durability and should be addressed. 

Self-threading bolts? Washers or not? Star washers? aluminum? stainless? anti-corrosion gunk? The manual is incredibly brief on these subjects... 

If 10-20% of EV power is lost in connections, as some data suggests, then this stuff really matters.

I did read the bottom of page 6 where it says:

VERY IMPORTANT UPDATE! READ THIS!!!
snubber diode this and that OR ELSE!

they also state the necessary wiring may not be shown in the diagrams. ~:|

but you think I should skip the diodes if I have the EV200? that would be nice.

Cheers.


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

ruckus said:


> -have been pouring over the manual for months.


Sorry ruck, I run into a lot of guys (especially guys, it seems to be a guy thing) who do not read directions or manuals  You do, good for you.



> why no threads in the zilla lugs?


I am pretty sure those are copper. Threads in copper are risky. It is a soft metal and the threads can strip with too much tightening torque. These Zilla terminals are rated for 2000A and need a proper tight connection. A thru bolt of proper size and grade with the proper washers, lock washer and nut set to the proper torque need be used. I would have thought a diagram and paragraph in the manual would have been a good idea, but don't recall seeing that.

You ask a lot of basic questions. Not that that is a bad thing  Just maybe more than I can handle. And an answer from me generates 3 more questions. Can you find an EV club near your area? 

Regards,

major


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## ruckus (Apr 15, 2009)

Hello Major,

Thank you for offering some advice and sorry if I peppered you with more questions. 

I do not know of an EV club in my area (Missoula, MT). Also, I would want a broader knowledge base than just how Billiebob has done it before as the EV wiring and components seem to be continually evolving.

Sorry if my questions seem basic, but I see some of the more experienced people on here also going back and questioning basic wiring design (such as whether to switch the dc-dc on at power-up, during charging, or all the time).

I have spent many many hours/months reading threads on here and a few other sites, but they sent a bunch of stuff with absolutely no instructions and now I am on my own to piece this thing together. Since the few manuals are made by people who are experts, the don't realize how much info they are leaving out cause it seems obvious to them.

Maybe it would be a good idea for me to start a build thread. The project is really sweet and if folks can see it, maybe they will want to help with the technical details.

Thanks again,

Marcus

1939 Jaguar SS kit body on a 1968 VW chassis.
ADC 203-06-4001
Zilla Z1K
96v 260ah Thunder Sky batts
EV Power BMS and cell modules for over/under protection.
Chinoz (elcon) 1500w lifepo4 charger
Chinoz (???) 20amp dc-dc

Bat trays are almost done, motor is in and tested. Right now I am mounting all the auxiliary pieces and am running into lots of basic wiring questions (such as if the fuse needs to be right next to the controller, does it have to go in its special holder, or can it use the posts on the contactors?). This is my first build and I am doing it for someone else, so it needs to be done right the first time.


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## ElectriCar (Jun 15, 2008)

The standard it to place one in the + and the other in the - cables coming from the pack into the controller. One of them energizes when you turn the ignition on. The second one is energized via a switch in the pot box. This way there are two methods to kill the power to the controller should it fault at wide open throttle. The reasoning that if only one contactor is used and the contacts were to weld in the on position you couldn't disconnect the power inside the vehicle without a manual disconnecting means. 

When you first power on the controller, there may be a surge of current which if large enough could fuse the contacts together rendering that contactor useless. Most pot boxes have a switch in the box for this purpose. You take the + wire off the ignition and connect it to the open or NO contact on the PB, the other connection goes from the other side of that same NO contact to the coil of the second contactor.


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

ElectriCar said:


> The second one is energized via a switch in the pot box.


Actually the Zilla does not use the potbox switch. I never liked to use it even on the old Curtis controllers either. 

Everybody has their own way  It's like DIY, or DID, Do It Different 

I prefer to have a contactor in the negative battery line which turns on by the keyswitch. This will completely isolate the high voltage battery. When the key is turned on, that negative contactor closes and will energize the DC/DC converter and connect HV battery to the Zilla. Then a run switch tells the Zilla (hairball) to energize and it will precharge itself and close the positive contactor. There is also a push to start button for the hairball (see the manual).

note: I also found that if you leave the "SLI+14in" connected on the hairball, it will drain your aux battery over the course of a week or two.

There is no one right way, plenty of ways which will work, and some ways which won't work 

major


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## GizmoEV (Nov 28, 2009)

ruckus said:


> I do not know of an EV club in my area (Missoula, MT). Also, I would want a broader knowledge base than just how Billiebob has done it before as the EV wiring and components seem to be continually evolving.


Roland Wiench posts to the EVDL quite a bit and lives in Great Falls, IIRC. You might send him a PM and ask if he knows of EVers near you who can help. Roland is a retired electrician and has been running EVs for 30+ years and he is very familiar with how the Zilla should be wired up, among other things.


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## ruckus (Apr 15, 2009)

major said:


> Actually the Zilla does not use the potbox switch. I never liked to use it even on the old Curtis controllers either. major


The pb-6 they sent has a small 3-prong switch on it... I thought that was for telling the controller to ignore the pot at rest, not turning on a contactor. It seems crazy to open a contactor every time you let off the pedal, or am I missing something?



major said:


> I prefer to have a contactor in the negative battery line which turns on by the keyswitch. This will completely isolate the high voltage battery. When the key is turned on, that negative contactor closes and will energize the DC/DC converter and connect HV battery to the Zilla. Then a run switch tells the Zilla (hairball) to energize and it will precharge itself and close the positive contactor. There is also a push to start button for the hairball (see the manual).major


I like the idea of the neg contactor, but don't quite understand how connecting the neg side could energize the converter if the positive side is still disconnected. I read that folks had issues energizing the dc-dc and the hairball at the same time, so it was recommended to energize hairball, the dc-dc a moment later. You have no trouble? Do you employ an emergency shut off?



major said:


> note: I also found that if you leave the "SLI+14in" connected on the hairball, it will drain your aux battery over the course of a week or two.major


This vehicle will see periods of rest. slow bat drain must be avoided. I am thinking to put a switch on the 12v bat side, also on the key. A small 12v charger would be tied into the 120v charging input to keep it topped off. It sounds like a common problem for the dc-dc or the hairball to eat up the aux bat. Why do folks use a 12v bat? If you can just power up the convertor with the key, then you have 12v to close the + contactor with the hairball?



major said:


> There is no one right way, plenty of ways which will work, and some ways which won't work major


I want my setup to be one of the right ways. It sounds like the right ways are few but the wrong ways are many. This seems like a pretty big topic on the forum right now, and a place where many EV's are having trouble.

The person who commissioned the car wants it grandpa simple, super safe, and no chance of it draining down to death if the heater or dome light is left on.

What is the best way to accomplish this?


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## GizmoEV (Nov 28, 2009)

ruckus said:


> I like the idea of the neg contactor, but don't quite understand how connecting the neg side could energize the converter if the positive side is still disconnected.


If the DC-DC is connected to the negative side of the battery after the contactor and the positive side before the contactor then turning on the key will energize the DC-DC without the contactor on the positive side being connected.



ruckus said:


> The person who commissioned the car wants it grandpa simple, super safe, and no chance of it draining down to death if the heater or dome light is left on.
> 
> What is the best way to accomplish this?


I have no 12V battery in my Gizmo. I have a Sure Power DC-DC that is always connected to the battery pack. It has two 12V lines coming out of it. One is switched and one is always on. It has an extremely low parasitic current drain. I've read that GEM or someone uses this brand because they have never had any warranty claims on them. They make a 96V version. If they made a higher voltage version I'd use it when I do my full size conversion and not use a 12V battery as a back up. It just works!

I've attached the pdf I have of it. If it can handle the loads you have in the EV I highly recommend it. That way, if the dome light gets left on it won't drain a 12V SLI battery to death. If you use LED Dome lights you could leave the light on for a month and still be ok. As for the heater, it should turn off when the key turns off. That is how I have my things wired. Only the radio and dome light work with the key off.


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

ruckus said:


> I like the idea of the neg contactor, but don't quite understand how connecting the neg side could energize the converter if the positive side is still disconnected.


Looks like Giz covered that. Thanks 



> I read that folks had issues energizing the dc-dc and the hairball at the same time, so it was recommended to energize hairball, the dc-dc a moment later. You have no trouble?


I have troubles  but that circuit worked just fine. You need to use a separate fuse for the DC/DC (HV side). And I wired in a switch and LED in the "power bay" so if I was working on the system, I could tell the DC/DC was working (LED) and/or turn it off/reset it.

You mentioned installing fuses. Use a proper fuse holder. I recommend strongly against bolting fuses directly to the terminals of other components, like a contactor, for a number of reasons. The contactor ratings are given with a specific cable size attached to the terminals. This is because heat from the internal contact is conducted out via the electrical path. This heat will affect the fuse, and/or vice versa.



> Do you employ an emergency shut off?


You betcha  Sometimes more than one 



ruckus said:


> Why do folks use a 12v bat?


Safety is one reason. Not that you want to hear it, but a HV battery failure or other failure which blows the main fuse is the most common. Or a failure of the DC/DC. Any of which would leave the vehicle without 12V aux power. Might be a safety problem especially at night. You should have a big enough 12V battery to power things like 4-way flashers for a couple of hours without the HV battery functioning.

Also the 12V battery should reduce the size/rating of the DC/DC because it can handle peak loads. Also your circuit design may require 12V to turn on the DC/DC. Lots of reasons 



ruckus said:


> The person who commissioned the car wants it grandpa simple, super safe,.....What is the best way to accomplish this?


Buy a Nissan Leaf 


Regards,

major


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## GizmoEV (Nov 28, 2009)

major said:


> Looks like Giz covered that. Thanks


You are welcome. You reminded me of a great Pic for my Avatar so now I have one. I'm called Giz by one of the guys who I work with. He is very tall and kept talking about stealing my Gizmo. One day I got him to try sitting in it. Here he is... The top wouldn't even go down all the way with his feet on the ground!

Later he "vandalized it" so I took a picture before cleaning it off.


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## ruckus (Apr 15, 2009)

Thanks for the help everybody! 

You have given some good designs. Explicit details were very helpful. 

I like how the neg contactor placement completely separates the controller from the battery and charge circuit. If the charger goes poof there is no chance of the zilla getting affected (has that ever happened?) Its not like we can just order up another zilla, I feel lucky to finally ever get one.

I am trying to start a build thread and show some pictures but my computer suddenly is refusing to talk to my camera.  and after all these years..

Major, how do you avoid 12v drainage to zilla -put a keyed switch there as well?

Also, you say to use the fuse holder cause the warmth from the contacter may make it blow. Aren't the extra lugs and cable connections just as likely to cause heat? Seems like a lot of folks only use about a 2" cable, will that 2 inches really make a difference? just wondering, it seemed so nice and compact and I see a couple like that in the evalbum. Do you know of anyone who bolted them together and got a failure? I can see that a blown fuse might damage the contactor ($100), whereas with the holder and a few inches, a blown fuse would not damage anything else.

We only have 96v, and an 8" motor. I was going to start with a max of 600A since that is the motor rating. Will I really be blowing fuses and contactors? or course, the big 260ah batteries aren't likely to limit amperage like a smaller battery might.

Cheers


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## GizmoEV (Nov 28, 2009)

The fuse is supposed to be the weakest link in the circuit. This means it has to heat up and melt before anything else does. Because of this need it has more resistance than a regular wire so it will be running hotter than a regular wire would. The contactor also has more resistance than a regular wire so it will run hotter than regular wire. The contactor needs to run as cool as it can so the regular wire connected to it becomes a heat sink for it. If you bolt the fuse directly to the contactor that post on the contactor will not be able to run as cool as it ordinarily could and potentially cause the contactor to wear out or weld easier and it will possibly make the fuse run hotter so it is more likely to blow when there is no short. Also, depending on how your fuse blows it could damage the contactor. Having a short piece of wire between the two will minimize this.


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## ruckus (Apr 15, 2009)

Ok, I will separate with wire and lugs. 

Do the contactors and fuses normally get hot under use? 
This is not good for efficiency. 

What of the busbar tests showing that washers hurt conductivity? are they still needed for long-term reliability of the mechanical connection, even if they hurt the electrical connection.? Paste like crazy?

The local welding shop kinda freaked out when I wanted 0000 cabling and lugs. They have some 000 in stock. Am I crazy to want 4/0?

Any hints on sourcing shielded conduit for use through the passenger compartment along the floor to connect the front and back packs? The owner wants complete emi/rfi shielding for the passenger compartment. Will aluminum/bubble wrap stuff from hardware store work if I ground it to chassis? I was going to coat the firewall and behind the seats to protect passengers.
or should I look for a cable that is already shielded like this: http://www.lscable.com/product/product_info01.asp?cate_code=1324&idx=3
Twist cable and put them in large shielding or shield each and still twist?

sorry, lots of questions... any answers appreciated


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

ruckus said:


> Am I crazy to want 4/0?


Yep, I'd say so  See this thread http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showthread.php?t=53808 

I'd use welding cable. And look for liquid tight metalized conduit from an electrical supply house. Or fab a boxed-in raceway. That nuke power plant stuff will cost an arm and leg  And shielding individual cables won't lower RFI like shielding the pair. Twisting ????? I don't.

What else? Oh yeah. Washers? Always use a plated steel washer under the bolt head and under the lock washer. Never put a ferrous washer in the electrical circuit, like between the lug and the fuse tab.

Under normal loads, contactor and fuses don't get very hot, if they are installed correctly. With overloads, they do get hot. There is also vibration and other things to consider. Especially for a guy who isn't sure of what he's doing (no offense), use the recommended methods. 

And you mentioned something about 10 to 20% loss in connections. Get real. Things would be a smokin'  More like 1%, maybe less, IMO. 

Regards,

major


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## ruckus (Apr 15, 2009)

The link suggests I can smoke 2/0 wire at 1c (265A rating). Not reassuring. 

-according to this chart: http://www.powerstream.com/Wire_Size.htm
3/0 is rated for 239A
4/0 is rated for 302A 

The zilla is supposed to be rated around 300a continuous, so the 4/0 matches that rating. For comparison, the TS260ah batt is happy to dump a continuous 780A at 3c.  

4/0 actually seems kinda conservative. 
A typical TS 100ah build only puts out 300A at 3c. 

If the owner decides to throw in a bigger motor and 8-10 batts in the trunk, I don't want my cabling to be the weak link... :|

It IS registered as a Jaguar, not a "leaf".


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

ruckus said:


> The link suggests I can smoke 2/0 wire at 1c (265A rating). Not reassuring.
> 
> -according to this chart:http://www.powerstream.com/Wire_Size.htm
> 3/0 is rated for 239A
> ...


Your motor will be toast before a 2/0 cable fails 

But bigger is better. Use 4/0. It'll work.

major


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## ruckus (Apr 15, 2009)

(Sorry, was editing my post to get the numbers straight.)

YES! wimpy 8" motor toast. affirmative sir!

But if he decides to ramp things up and throw in a 11-13" motor and 10 more batts, the 4/0 cables will have been a wise investment, no? 

cheers

ps. I am using this heatsink with 2 BIG computer fans. Will that be enough cooling?
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dl...item=&sspagename=STRK:MEWAX:IT#ht_1206wt_1139
I have not seen similar heat sink in use.

I cut it in half (anybody need a zilla sized sink?) cause it weighed like 30lbs! :eeek:


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## ruckus (Apr 15, 2009)

(Sorry, was editing my post to get the numbers straight.)

YES! wimpy 8" motor toast. affirmative sir!

But if he decides to ramp things up and throw in a 11-13" motor and 10 more batts, the 4/0 cables will have been a wise investment, no? 

cheers

ps. I am using a heatsink like this (no warpage) with 2 BIG computer fans. Will that be enough cooling?
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dl...item=&sspagename=STRK:MEWAX:IT#ht_1206wt_1139
I have not seen similar heat sink in use.

I cut it in half (anybody need a zilla-sized sink?) since it weighed over 20lbs.


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## EVfun (Mar 14, 2010)

A couple of thoughts...

I've never run any 4/0 cable. Your 8 inch motor is about 180 amps continuous and since battery amps will always be less than or equal to motor amps that is really all you need to size for to control cable heating. 

I have been using 1/0 on the battery loop and 2/0 on the motor loop and the longer front to back pack runs when applicable. If you are building a heavy EV you might consider all 2/0 with a 4/0 motor loop. 

I'm not sure how well heat-sinking an Zilla controller will work. If you notice, the water passages are in an internal heat sink, not the back plate of the Zilla. You would have to ask Cafe Electric or on the NEDRA list (as I know Otmar is over there) for advice on air cooling. If a heat sink on the back plate is effective at cooling I may be interested in a Zilla 1k size heat sink. 

It may be possible to just fill the cooling passages with water connected to a tank for a kind-of crude thermo-syphon cooling system. Water holds a lot of heat. Heavier vehicles need more cooling because acceleration requires more power. A VW kit car may get away without cooling. Otmar was pretty confident that my 1400 lb. beach buggy with a short 20 mile range would work with a Zilla 1k and no water in western WA (never gets to 100F here.)


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## ruckus (Apr 15, 2009)

Hello and thanks for the reply. 

The motor was chosen for efficiency (100mi range). It is known to be sensitive to high and constant amperage compared to a 9, 11, or 13" motor. There will be analog A-meter on the dash with redline at continuous rating. 

The following two statements seem to be contradictory. Please explain!



EVfun said:


> -I'm not sure how well heat-sinking an Zilla controller will work..
> 
> -A VW kit car may get away without cooling. Otmar was pretty confident that my 1400 lb. beach buggy with a short 20 mile range would work with a Zilla 1k and no water...


It sounds as if Otmar thought you could run a VW with a zilla and NO cooling. I can only imagine a giant heatsink/radiator with fans could only be magnitudes better than no cooling at all. That is good news. 

I am surprised since buggies see very hard use in difficult conditions. I would expect them to draw very high amps for their weight.

As VW and Teledyne have shown, air cooling can be sufficient if properly (over) engineered.

The motor and the zilla have thermal sensors, so meltdown is hopefully not part of the learning curve.

The ADC 8" is rated to 800A in this chart: http://www.evparts.com/cms/picts/products/mt2117peakmotoroutput.PDF
but for how long? Still, it is not wimpy...


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## GizmoEV (Nov 28, 2009)

I also think you should run this by Otmar at [email protected]. You don't want to get everything done and then have to go back and install water cooling.


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## EVfun (Mar 14, 2010)

ruckus said:


> The following two statements seem to be contradictory. Please explain!
> 
> It sounds as if Otmar thought you could run a VW with a zilla and NO cooling. I can only imagine a giant heatsink/radiator with fans could only be magnitudes better than no cooling at all. That is good news.
> 
> I am surprised since buggies see very hard use in difficult conditions. I would expect them to draw very high amps for their weight.


I'm not sure how well heat sinking a Zilla will work because it looks like what needs cooling is heatsink *inside* it. The water passages are not plumbed to the bottom plate of the controller. 

On the other hand, if you vehicle has a small enough average power use, and the peaks are short and not to high, it is possible to run without cooling. High ambient temperatures and long range (long run time) make this more difficult to pull off so I would certainly contact Cafe Electric or Otmar to learn more about its limits without cooling.

My Buggy, seen in my avatar, is strictly street. It only has to fear my right foot and with its low weight I cannot keep it stuffed very long. From 1999 through 2010 it has been running an old Curtis 1221b, I am planning to swap in a Zilla before it rolls back out next spring.


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

ruckus said:


> The ADC 8" is rated to 800A in this chart: http://www.evparts.com/cms/picts/products/mt2117peakmotoroutput.PDF
> but for how long?


Hi ruck,

You'll notice on that chart the words "EV Peak HP Motor Output". Peak is undefined w/r/t time. For 800A, my guess is about 5 to 10 seconds, depending on the initial temperature. Cable sizing should be done on an average or RMS current basis.

Regards,

major


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## ruckus (Apr 15, 2009)

Good points everybody!

I put in an email to Otmar about the heatsink.

Just to be clear, I am not running without cooling. The current setup should provide MASSIVE cooling, but only to the bottom plate of the zilla.

The Zilla puts out ~300A continuous, right?

The TS260 batts will make 300A at 1.15c  

This chart shows 4/0 to be rated for ~300A continuous. 
http://www.powerstream.com/Wire_Size.htm

What is the continuous amp rating of the 11" or 13" motors? I am guessing close to 300A.

So the components seem properly sized and balanced to each other. (everything is sized for potential motor and voltage upgrade)

The 8" motor is the known weak link right now (it has thermal alarm). It was chosen for range. If the owner decides to hot rod it, there is plenty of room to go 120v and throw in a real motor. He does not want to have to redo all the cabling at that time. Changing the motor is 4 bolts and 2 wires. I gave the owner the option of 2/0 and he chose 4/0 so he never has to worry that the cabling is a limitation. (If you call us noobs we won't mind )

The 2/0 is only rated to 190A continuous, pretty much the same as the current wimpy motor. If larger motors were employed, the 2/0 would be running over capacity. Would it work? surely. Does White Zombie use 2/0? probably not. (not that this rig is remotely similar to the Zomb). Can the VW transaxle handle a 13" motor at 1000A? not likely!

You also mention the cabling as a heat sink for the contactor and fuse (and maybe controller too). Larger wire means a larger heatsink. If the wire is at capacity it will not be a heatsink and might even be adding heat to those components.

So... Back to shielded conduit, anyone have a good source? Has anyone employed aluminum bubble insulation to lower passenger emf/emi/rfi exposure?

Am I crazy? These will also serve to protect the HV wires and insulate the batteries, so it seems like a good way to kill 2 birds... Thoughts?


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

ruckus said:


> The Zilla puts out ~300A continuous, right?
> 
> The TS260 batts will make 300A at 1.15c
> 
> ...


Hi ruck,

We give you advice. Take or leave it. You can find charts to support about any rating for wire. Here's one for welding cable. http://www.pacificcabling.com/Specialty Cables/welding_cable_amperage_chart.htm For 100 feet of 2/0 at a 60% duty cycle, 450 Amps. Even a 13 inch motor isn't going to do that. And neither is the White Zombie.

But use whatever you want 

major


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## ruckus (Apr 15, 2009)

So failure of 2/0 is unknown? That is a strong argument for it's use.

I greatly appreciate your advice. 

At each decision point the owner has chosen the upgraded option (zilla vs curtis, 260ah vs 120ah, etc). 4/0 seemed like a no-brainer since it will only cost about $30-50 more. but maybe I will have to rethink or compromise and go with 3/0. :think:

There is also the "hotrod" visual aspect of beefy wires. I know this seems silly, but this is a show car, not a Corolla and the owner is an artist, so looks matter.

If I do stupid stuff, at least I was warned by those who know better


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## GizmoEV (Nov 28, 2009)

ruckus said:


> The 8" motor is the known weak link right now (it has thermal alarm). It was chosen for range.


You do know that a smaller motor does not equate to more efficiency like it does with an ICE, right? If the owner is wanting to go with a larger motor in the future why not put in a 9" now and just limit the controller output? Then all you have to do is turn up the controller for performance, no rebuilding necessary!

Also, I pull >400A through 1 gauge, not 1/0 but 1 gauge, and 125A for 30 minutes at a time with no problems. I doubt you will regret using 2/0. As for 4/0 costing only ~$50 more are you including the increased cost of lugs and the greater difficulty in making tight bends?


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## ruckus (Apr 15, 2009)

GizmoEV said:


> You do know that a smaller motor does not equate to more efficiency like it does with an ICE, right?


Really? I was definitely under the impression that a smaller motor is more efficient if used within it's power range. Is there data that shows otherwise? (like somebody who increased the size of their motor and kept everything else the same and saw no increase in amp draw)

The ADC 9" and 8" are both rated at 58hp @ 500A. The 9" is putting out more torque at a lower rpm, but that equals same hp.



GizmoEV said:


> If the owner is wanting to go with a larger motor in the future why not put in a 9" now and just limit the controller output? Then all you have to do is turn up the controller for performance, no rebuilding necessary!


Brilliant idea. Unfortunately he already bought the 8" and I installed it. The controller only limits peak amps, not continuous amps. That is limited by your foot. Show me somebody who drives their V8 the same as a 4banger, and I'll show you a liar. While you might WANT to drive the 13" motor mellow, that will be impossible and you will find yourself guilt-ridden after doing donuts in the parking lot. 

Actually, the 8" motor puts out the same hp as the ICE at only 400amps yet has gobs more torque down low. Cranked up, the 8" will put out more than DOUBLE the power of the stock engine. Why would I need more than double power? and would the 40-year-old drivetrain hold up? probably not. The stock clutch is designed for ~70ftlbs. Imagine hitting it with 225ftlbs from a 9" motor. If the clutch did not slip, 3rd gear would shear off. 

I can see your point though, put in a big motor, limit the amps and tool down the road with a nice cool motor. Not a bad strategy if money and space allow. Actually, The 8" IS an upgrade from a 6.7" which have been pushing VW's for decades. What is the weight difference in the different size motors? 8,9,11,13? 8"=106lbs, 9"=133lbs, 11"=200lbs, 13"=300lbs!!



GizmoEV said:


> Also, I pull >400A through 1 gauge, not 1/0 but 1 gauge, and 125A for 30 minutes at a time with no problems.


    At some point isn't your wire becoming a resistor? Maybe it hasn't melted, but surely you are loosing some efficiency. 

What of mbarkley's busbar tests which show that the standard bus with washers is greatly limiting battery life? The bars that win the test are HUGE (with no washers). Do you think the tests are not accurate? In the chart, lower number is less volts lost during 100A load testing. http://www.flickr.com/photos/mbarkley/3226257763/in/photostream/

Clearly somebody needs to do a test where they pop in a bunch of different motors and see the difference in energy used for a given load, and max output. Numbers in a chart are one thing, but how does this play out in real-world performance?


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

ruckus said:


> At some point isn't your wire becoming a resistor? Maybe it hasn't melted, but surely you are loosing some efficiency.


All wire is a resistor. What is a concern is how much resistance or how much voltage drop or how much heat. And you have multiple guys with experience telling you something here and you know better. So put an extra 20 pounds of copper in your EV and get that extra 0.003%.



> What of mbarkley's busbar tests which show that the standard bus with washers is greatly limiting battery life? The bars that win the test are HUGE (with no washers). Do you think the tests are not accurate? In the chart, lower number is less volts lost during 100A load testing. http://www.flickr.com/photos/mbarkley/3226257763/in/photostream/


First off, he doesn't use lock washers. Invalid test right there, unless he intends to torque those nuts after each 10 miles or so. And I already told you never to put a steel washer in a current path. Which is the test which showed the worst. And copper with and without washers under the nuts were the same.

And what he was doing had nothing to do with "limiting battery life".



> Clearly somebody needs to do a test where they pop in a bunch of different motors and see the difference in energy used for a given load, and max output. Numbers in a chart are one thing, but how does this play out in real-world performance?


I'll back up what Giz told you. We don't need to run a real world test. "We" have years of experience and a good understanding of the theory. You come here and admittedly know nothing, ask advice and then repeatedly throw it back in our face. What gives?

Regards,

major


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## GizmoEV (Nov 28, 2009)

ruckus said:


> The ADC 9" and 8" are both rated at 58hp @ 500A. The 9" is putting out more torque at a lower rpm, but that equals same hp.


There, you answered it partly right there. Torque does the "pushing" so if you get more torque with a lower current so the losses are lower. Unlike an ICE, it takes nearly the same energy to keep a smaller motor turning as it does a larger one. The friction doesn't go up with size like something with pistons, cams, valves, crank shafts, ... all creating more friction. At a most basic level that is how a hybrid drive car gains efficiency. Make the motor smaller with a little more power than needed for the greatest continuous power needs the car is designed for and make up the acceleration difference with an electric motor. Furthermore, as you pointed out, a larger motor will run cooler so it will have a lower electrical resistance.



ruckus said:


> Actually, the 8" motor puts out the same hp as the ICE at only 400amps yet has gobs more torque down low. Cranked up, the 8" will put out more than DOUBLE the power of the stock engine. Why would I need more than double power? and would the 40-year-old drivetrain hold up? probably not. The stock clutch is designed for ~70ftlbs. Imagine hitting it with 225ftlbs from a 9" motor. If the clutch did not slip, 3rd gear would shear off.


I know several people who installed racing clutches or increased the clutch pressure for this very reason.



ruckus said:


> Actually, The 8" IS an upgrade from a 6.7" which have been pushing VW's for decades. What is the weight difference in the different size motors? 8,9,11,13? 8"=106lbs, 9"=133lbs, 11"=200lbs, 13"=300lbs!!


I nearly burned up the 6.7" motor in my 900lb Gizmo from running too much current through it for my hill climbing. If I could I would go to a larger motor but there isn't room. Instead I went with a lower gearing and increased voltage. The motor is much happier now. With my LiFePO4 upgrade I added a cooling blower since I can easily drive beyond the 1hr rating of this motor now.



ruckus said:


> At some point isn't your wire becoming a resistor? Maybe it hasn't melted, but surely you are loosing some efficiency.


My Gizmo came with 4 gauge wire. I noticed it was warm after running 250A through it for the few minutes it takes to climb the hill to my home. I've never heard of a Gizmo with melted wire due to under sizing, only due to a corroding crimp lug. Of course only 38 were ever built so there isn't really a large sample to look at. When I installed 1 gauge wire it no longer is warm under the same conditions as before. I gained 3-4mph at the top end and 2-3mph on hill climbing speed. If I went with 2/0 or 4/0 I would not see much difference if it was even noticeable. It is not worth the hassle, weight gain, or the 27' of wire and lugs cost to try to get a few percent more efficiency or range. Besides, if you think doing a full size EV conversion means you have cramped quarters to install things, try a Gizmo!



ruckus said:


> What of mbarkley's busbar tests which show that the standard bus with washers is greatly limiting battery life? The bars that win the test are HUGE (with no washers). Do you think the tests are not accurate? In the chart, lower number is less volts lost during 100A load testing. http://www.flickr.com/photos/mbarkley/3226257763/in/photostream/


I'm with major, I see several problems with his test. I don't see where he is taking his measurements. If he is putting his probes on the ends of the aluminum studs then his test is entirely invalid. He needs to make his measurements from the center post of the battery possibly by drilling a small in the side of the aluminum nut which holds the post in place on the battery and measuring at the base of this hole. Anywhere else and there are many other variables which come into play. I chose to go with brass bolts, brass flat washers, and bronze split washers for my mounting. I have not had any bolts come loose in over 5500 miles of driving.



ruckus said:


> Clearly somebody needs to do a test where they pop in a bunch of different motors and see the difference in energy used for a given load, and max output. Numbers in a chart are one thing, but how does this play out in real-world performance?


Or go with the experience of EVers who have been doing this for a long time and tried all kinds of things. They may be wrong at times but more often than not, they are speaking from experience. It would be interesting to note the actual differences between two otherwise identical builds. What you won't see is a decrease in efficiency as the size is increased like is seen with an ICE.


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## ruckus (Apr 15, 2009)

Well, first of all, let me apologize if it seems like I am some snot-nosed brat who thinks they have all the answers. THAT IS NOT THE CASE. 

I know you get 1 or 10 noobs a month who want to ask all the same questions and can't get it through their heads that 48v and a 6.7" motor will not get a Ford Explorer on the freeway (even if they use 4/0 cable). I am in the same situation over at www.Hydraulicinnovations.com where I have a hydraulic hybrid build (hi-mpg). At first I would run all their calcs for them, but after a while, you loose interest in helping the average idiot and realize most of them will never build anything anyway.

The more you know, the shorter your tolerance of those who are ignorant.

I get it. You know a lot, so your tolerance is very low. 

You have helped me greatly already with the contactor placement and dc-dc wiring advice. Thank you.

I definitely believe you that 2/0 wire is sufficient, especially for this mediocre voltage and limited motor amps (convincing the owner is another matter). I never intended to start an argument about wire gauge capacity. sorry.



major said:


> All wire is a resistor. What is a concern is how much resistance or how much voltage drop or how much heat. And you have multiple guys with experience telling you something here and you know better. So put an extra 20 pounds of copper in your EV and get that extra 0.003%.


har har, well put. Please do know that Missoula sits at the bottom of one of the largest Superfund cleanup sites in the country. Yes, it is a copper mine upstream at Butte that caused all the problems. 20lbs less copper in my ev is 20 lbs less mined. You and Gizmo have eased my worry that not oversizing the cable would lead to fireworks. Thank you.



major said:


> First off, he doesn't use lock washers. Invalid test right there, unless he intends to torque those nuts after each 10 miles or so. And I already told you never to put a steel washer in a current path. Which is the test which showed the worst. And copper with and without washers under the nuts were the same.


You see? Your keen observation and experience reveals the weak links in the test that I wasn't able to see. I agree that not all of his conclusions seemed to be backed up by the charts, but you can take it a step further.

so- lock washers are needed to maintain the mechanical connection, regardless of whether they hurt conductivity (jury still out). You recommend plated washers. Where do you find these? local electrical shop? 

crazy explicit directions on how to build a proper electrical connection using x parts and y techniques is missing for the DIY ev builder. I know it seems painful cause you have done it and probably explained it 100 times, but there is no sticky on it so I am in the dark. do you recommend the paste?

If I use the search function I stay up until the wee hours of the night reading post after post of some SOB who is going to build their own controller or charging contraption that everybody else thinks is bunk.

So I finally resorted to asking stupid questions. 
and when I get answers that don't quite make sense given my limited electrical knowledge, then I ask more questions. Those additional questions are not suggesting your advice is wrong, rather they are generating an understanding of why MY assumptions are wrong. Nothing more, and I am definitely not trying to throw anything in people's face.



major said:


> And what he was doing had nothing to do with "limiting battery life".


In a later pic he shows a pac-tracker pic and the bats using the big aluminum bus bars have WAY more charge than the others (they are also more balanced). What is your opinion on that result?
http://www.flickr.com/photos/mbarkley/2881333477/

M.Barkley has produced many an electric vehicle and is teaching others the secrets. Testing is a worthwhile exercise. Even if it is done improperly, it can be redone and the results adjusted. This is science!



major said:


> I'll back up what Giz told you. We don't need to run a real world test. "We" have years of experience and a good understanding of the theory. You come here and admittedly know nothing, ask advice and then repeatedly throw it back in our face. What gives?


YIKES! sounds like I am pissing off the few people who can help me. NOT my intention at all. Just so you know, I read this forum for years before I dared to ask a question. And now I seem to have fumbled before the play even started. 

And, yes, tests are needed. If it could be shown that a 9" motor produced greater performance with no loss in range, then it would be stupid to install an 8" motor. I am unaware of any such tests or even anecdotal supporting data. BUT, that is why I am on this site. To LEARN. Please continue my education.

Sincerely,
Marcus


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## EVfun (Mar 14, 2010)

Peak output data for Advanced DC motors. You will notice that by 400 amps the 6.7 inch motors are showing low efficiency. The 8 inch is 82% and the 9 inch is 86% at 400 amps. It shows the 8 inch actually being more efficient than the 9 inch at higher currents, I find that a bit suspect. 

Here are a couple of curves to look at, the fan cooled 75 and 96 volt curves for the ADC 8 inch motor and the 75 volt fan cooled curves for the ADC 9 inch motor:
ADC 8 inch
ADC 9 inch

It looks like they are both about 85% efficient at 125 amps. The curve seems to roll off more quickly below that point with the larger motor. The general experience has been that if the required steady speed power is low the 8 inch is a better choice, but if you drive with your foot in it, drive in a hilly area, or have rather high cruising power requirements you are better of with a 9 inch motor. Because of the higher torque per amps and lower rpm per volt the 9 is generally used in with at least a 120 volt pack. With lower voltage it can end up a poor match for stock gearing for vehicles with low-ish gears (like aircooled VW Beetles.) I would guess the 9 is the better choice above about 2000 to 2500 pounds if you have the voltage. For FDW cars fit also becomes an issue, plenty have half-shaft clearance issues with the 9 inch motor.

I'm running an old Prestolite MTC-4001 7.25 inch motor in my VW kit car. Its performance curves are also available for comparison. It is generally slightly less efficient but they have a reputation for withstanding serious abuse. With only 33 commutator segments they won't take quite as much voltage some of the other common motor choices.


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## ruckus (Apr 15, 2009)

Experience IS testing. That is why us noobs hunger for the knowledge of those who have actually DONE something...

Gizmo, please note that hp = hp. High torque at low rpm or low torque at high rpm, if the hp/kw rating is the same, then the same amount of "energy" is available from the motor. So you could gear up a 9" or gear down a 8" and they would produce exactly the same result at 500 amps. (58hp) At least according the data. Now, don't get me wrong, the 9" has more available at other amp levels, but not by a huge margin. (I may not be an electrical genius, but I have studied torque and hp math back and forth)

Your tests show that increasing wire size DOES result in performance gains. And, yes, I understand there are diminishing returns. The key is to get the most performance for the cost/weight. What I gather from your story is that if this rig tends to overheat, adding a few more batts to increase the voltage might be a good way to go. Direct motor cooling venting sounds good too.

Are there folks out there who found an 8" motor at 96v was not enough to push a bug? If so, I am screwed. 

Please note that this rig feels scary at 60+mph and you can reach out and drag your knuckles on the ground.. 

The owner wants to cruise at 50-60mph with the occasional speed burst for kicks. Will the 8" not perform such?


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## ruckus (Apr 15, 2009)

EVfun said:


> The general experience has been that if the required steady speed power is low the 8 inch is a better choice, but if you drive with your foot in it, drive in a hilly area, or have rather high cruising power requirements you are better of with a 9 inch motor. Because of the higher torque per amps and lower rpm per volt the 9 is generally used in with at least a 120 volt pack. With lower voltage it can end up a poor match for stock gearing for vehicles with low-ish gears (like aircooled VW Beetles.) I would guess the 9 is the better choice above about 2000 to 2500 pounds if you have the voltage.
> 
> I'm running an old Prestolite MTC-4001 7.25 inch motor in my VW kit car.


The chart seems to show the 7.25" has about 17-18hp continuous. A tad less than the 8" at 23hp cont. Do you find this adequate? What is your voltage? Top speed? max sustained cruising speed without heat buildup?

Thanks.

p.s. I agree that the 9" motor could have a lower top speed at 96v. At 70mph, the bug will be near the rpm limit (4000rpm) that I wanted to use (for all of 30sec.) ~:| The 11" motor seems to be a clear upgrade. Not so sure about the 9". (unless you have the voltage to wind it up)
again, wanting to hear from those who have tried these motors. I only squint at the charts and shake my head and mutter to myself...


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

ruckus said:


> M.Barkley has produced many an electric vehicle and is teaching others the secrets.


There are no secrets. And his middle name is Billybob.


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

ruckus said:


> so- lock washers are needed to maintain the mechanical connection, regardless of whether they hurt conductivity (jury still out). You recommend plated washers. Where do you find these? local electrical shop?


ruck,

You don't conduct thru the lock washer, or flat washer, or bolts. These are fasteners to clamp the conducting surfaces together. There is no "jury out". Been done this way for a hundred plus years.

Don't you use fasteners on your hydraulic project? And you don't know what I mean by "plated"? I guess with hydraulic assemblies you have oil all over everything, so don't worry about corrosion  I mean, plated washers? You have to go out of your way to buy them unplated. The normal zinc plated grade 5 is just fine.



> A humble flat washer is used for many purposes, some proper and some not. The two most common proper purposes are:
> · To distribute the pressure of the nut or bolt evenly over the part being secured, reducing the chance of damage thereto, and
> · To provide a smooth surface for the nut or bolt to bear on, making it less likely to loosen as a result of an uneven fastening surface.
> 
> ...




from
http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/1713/whats-the-purpose-of-washers-the-round-metal-things

Regards,

major


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## ruckus (Apr 15, 2009)

Hello,
In hydraulics you select the proper connection (o-ring face seal or 4-bolt flange) and torque to the spec. done. Many hydraulic parts are put together with grade 8+ allen bolts -often with NO washers!  Since hydraulics are used in very demanding industrial conditions and high vibration environments, it shows that proper torque is more important for a mechanical connection than the use of washers. 

I will be using the supplied washers on this install. 

I just thought it was interesting that mbarkley found washers reduced conductivity and wondered what others thought about the tests. The paktracker pic seemed more convincing than the crude graphs.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/mbarkley/2881333477/
I am guessing he is open to input if you think his methodology is flawed.

His results seem to make sense because without washers you are "grinding" the nut into the bus (creating a really good connection), whereas flat washers only have a "pressing" action on the bus. The stud/bolt is definitely carrying a fair bit of the load since the mating area of all the threads is probably greater than the area of the flat top of the batt terminal to the bus.

Welding lugs are plated with something different (silvery looking) than your average chinese hardwares store washer. The poles on the contactor are also silvery looking. I am guessing this is zinc?, but I have heard the term "tinned". 

I was wondering if folks went out of their way to get high quality electrical hardware, and if so, what are the preferred materials? Gizmo indicated he did, and that he used all copper. others?

The Thundersky batteries have one pole aluminum and the other is copper with a huge aluminum nut surrounding it. The bolts and washers are some kind of plated steel?, and the stock buses are copper. I am thinking with so many dissimilar metals, anti-corrosion paste such as Noalox or similar is a good idea. yes?

Cheers


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## EVfun (Mar 14, 2010)

ruckus said:


> The chart seems to show the 7.25" has about 17-18hp continuous. A tad less than the 8" at 23hp cont. Do you find this adequate? What is your voltage? Top speed? max sustained cruising speed without heat buildup?


I have been unable to overheat the Prestolite, but with 10 Optimas the Buggy only had a 20 mile range. It had no problem going 70 mph with amps left to spare. The top speed is 85 mph at about 300 amps! It was easier to overheat the Curtis 1221B controller than warm the Prestolite motor. I had to try to overheat the Curtis (say driving around town in heavy traffic in 3rd gear.) If the range was longer sustaining 60 mph would have been about the continuous limit, the motor is running 4200 rpm (in 3rd) at 60 mph.

My buggy has a 120 volt system and the amps required to go any given speed on level ground are well matched to the curve: mph^2 / 24 = amps. A beach buggy body has all the aerodynamic qualities of a brick. It is very possible to do better at freeway speeds, but it would hard to use less power at low speeds as the Buggy only weighs 1420 lb. and rolls on ball bearings with synthetic oil and grease.


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

ruckus said:


> anti-corrosion paste such as Noalox or similar is a good idea. yes?


Maybe, but I ain't even going there.



ruckus said:


> Gizmo indicated he did, and that he used all copper.


Brass, not copper.



GizmoEV said:


> I chose to go with *brass* bolts, *brass* flat washers, and bronze split washers for my mounting.


Good luck,

major


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## GizmoEV (Nov 28, 2009)

ruckus said:


> Gizmo, please note that hp = hp. High torque at low rpm or low torque at high rpm, if the hp/kw rating is the same, then the same amount of "energy" is available from the motor. So you could gear up a 9" or gear down a 8" and they would produce exactly the same result at 500 amps. (58hp) At least according the data. Now, don't get me wrong, the 9" has more available at other amp levels, but not by a huge margin. (I may not be an electrical genius, but I have studied torque and hp math back and forth)


Yes I know that. I probably would have flunked my BA in Physics had I not got that one right ! I must have misunderstood. I thought everything else being equal with only the motor different. That would imply same gearing. Now at 500A there would be a difference. Or for the same desired torque the larger motor would take a lower current and hence lower electrical losses. In reality, most are concerned about the energy out of the battery compared to the energy out of the motor. Naturally this is an oversimplification since there is more to it than just electrical loses.

As for the TS mounting hardware mine came with SS bolts, flat washers, and split washers along with connecting straps. You can see what they look like on my blog at http://2003gizmo.blogspot.com. Check the December 2009 and earlier posts for what I did and why.

SS doesn't conduct as readily as copper and aluminum so the bolt won't conduct very much compared to the flat contact area of the connecting strap. Brass conducts better than SS does and is easier to drill and tap threads into which is why I went with them initially.

Aluminum oxide is a great insulator and forms quite fast. Copper oxide is a relatively good conductor. Bill Bube, of Killacycle fame, found that his VW EV started to have less power and the voltage would sag significantly more than usual. What he found was that the resistance of all of his connections to the TS batteries had gone way up. He cleaned off each one and applied an anti-oxide compound (I don't remember what) and the problem went away and didn't come back. I used NOALOX on my connections but I would have preferred using something without zinc in it. I'll probably use NO-OX-ID next time.

I don't know what "paste" M.Barkley used for his experiments but I don't trust them. Mostly because I haven't seen a detail of his procedure to make my own analysis of his results. The PakTrakr display does show the Al bars as having higher voltage but again, without more information on the setup it is hard to make any solid conclusions about the results. Also, I haven't done any calculations but did the tests use buss bars with equally rated conductance values? If not, then I could repeat the same test with different sizes of wiring and get the same results, all using the same metal. It could be that all the tests show is that it is better to use a larger buss bar than a smaller one. BTW, a PakTrakr *will* put an uneven load on the cells it is monitoring. For this reason I will not use it in LiFePO4 cells. When I had a flooded lead acid pack in my Gizmo it was just fine.

Also, the aluminum posts that M.Barkley is using were not touted for their electrical conductivity but for their thermal expansion being the same as the battery posts. IIRC, when I first saw these advertised both posts in the TS batteries were aluminum. Now they have gone to Al and Cu presumably since the "plates" in the battery are Al and Cu. Ok, I just found my link to the aluminum studs and buss bars and they still show an old TS cell when they still had two aluminum posts. The link is here. Maybe another solution would be these.

FWIW, I'm not seeing any problems with my buss straps from TS even after 30 miles (about 40 minutes) at 125+A followed by a 225+A hill climb. No heat or any thing. They feel the same temp as the ambient temperature.


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## ruckus (Apr 15, 2009)

Thanks for the data, help, suggestions, and anecdotal evidence everybody.

busy reading links, blogs and specs....

Just got the Palm IIIxe from Otmar! It is very Cool.
Instructions worked exactly. Ready to plug into the hairball... :| 

Ran the cable specs and priced them locally and on the web.
I will need ~25 feet.

2/0 = 12 lbs
3/0 = 15.5 lbs
4/0 = 19 lbs

locally
2/0 is $???/ft
3/0 is $5.99/ft ........... $150 total 
4/0 is $7.75/ft  ......$194

Online (including shipping)
2/0 is $3.12/ft ..............$78 
3/0 is $4.64/ft .............$116
4/0 is $5.41/ft .............$135

The weight difference between 2/0 and 4/0 is less than a 12-pack of beer and will cost an extra $57. Well worth the .003 increase in efficiency!  

As it would turn out, the TS260's use 5/8" bolts which are only available in 4/0 lugs  (EDIT: maybe they are 1/2? I better measure...) 
You can see where this is going. 
The engineers designed this battery to fit 4/0 lugs only. 
The 4/0 cabling is only 19lbs TOTAL for the whole vehicle AND the batts only fit 4/0 cable lugs AND the entire cable for the whole car will only cost $135... 

The local shop was some moron flailing on the crimp device I see on ebay for $11. I think it is wise to buy one myself. anybody have problems with the result? 

Should I coat the copper cable with nox paste before crimping? or is that only for aluminum? can't seem to hurt...

What about star washers? anybody use those?


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## GizmoEV (Nov 28, 2009)

I haven't used the hammer crimper on anything bigger than 1 AWG wire so I can't comment on how it works with 4/0. It is easy to tell when the crimp is tight because the hammer hit when done feels hard, almost like hitting an anvil directly. Hope that description makes sense. When you use one you will know what I mean. That being said, not everyone has the luxury I did where I could do all my crimps out of the vehicle. I've heard of some having to get a block of iron or something to hold in the car while trying to hammer crimp a lug so you may want to get one of those hydraulic crimpers or some other hand crimper to handle the runs where you have to install the wire and then the lug later.

I would *not* put any NOALOX or similar paste in the crimp. I would get the appropriate glue lined shrink wrap to put around the joint, covering the end of the lug on to the insulation of the wire. For my 1AWG wire I covered the whole round portion of the lug which used about half the length of the piece of shrink wrap with the rest on the wire. This does a couple of things. First, it seals the joint so it won't get any junk into it to start corrosion. Second, it acts like a strain relief so the wire just entering the lug where there is no insulation doesn't flex as much over time which will harden and eventually crack the wire. This, however, is not very likely with 4/0 wire. I assume you are using the really fine stranded welding cable. Don't use the stiff coarse wire stuff. Another thing to consider is that some ev supply places have orange insulated wire so that the HV wiring is obvious. Since you are building this for someone else you might consider this route.

I'm not sure you want to use star washers. I believe that the split washers will hold pressure longer in the event that a bolt loosens. If you really want to be sure the bolts won't loosen you could use Nord-Lock washers. If you go this route you probably don't want to use a flat washer with them. You will want to go with the SS version to avoid corrosion issues.

Edit: I'm going to guess those bolts are 13mm. The ones on the 100Ah batteries are 8mm.

Do you have a build blog up somewhere?


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## EVfun (Mar 14, 2010)

ruckus said:


> As it would turn out, the TS260's use 5/8" bolts which are only available in 4/0 lugs  (EDIT: maybe they are 1/2? I better measure...)


Might want to go measure again. TS cells use metric hardware. It should be an M14 bolt. 5/8 inch ring terminals would work.


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## ruckus (Apr 15, 2009)

Will measure bolts tomorrow morning.. M14-5/8 likely. BIG.
They are even too big for evpower cell modules (square end). 
I have to file them or drill them to fit... but the ring terminal on the other end of the evpower cell modules DO fit. 

Gizmo, I can imagine what you mean: pluh, pluh, pluh, ching!! crimp finished.

EVfun, you give me hope that the 8" motor can push this vehicle ok. It is very light. (despite the extra 7lbs for 4/0 wire)

Sorry, this IS the build thread so far... still trying to get camera to talk to computer... but is nice rig. you will enjoy once the pics work.


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## GizmoEV (Nov 28, 2009)

ruckus said:


> EVfun, you give me hope that the 8" motor can push this vehicle ok. It is very light. (despite the extra 7lbs for 4/0 wire)


Careful now, that might be the straw that broke the camel's back


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## ruckus (Apr 15, 2009)

Well, I need something to counterbalance that huge heatsink that may be inadequate. If anything has extra weight, it's these overbuilt battery trays/boxes/hold downs.

Here is Otmar's response:


Hi Marcus,
Your air cooled heatsink may be enough assuming you are using a
shifting transmission in the buggy. Your low voltage makes the load
worse for both the motor and controller. The Zilla can cool through
the baseplate, but it's a much less direct thermal path than the water
passages are.

Watching the temps with something like ZillaView is a essential for
testing, and remember that they go up in the summer. Absolutely be
sure that you check engine light is set up so you can see it flash if
it overheats so much that it cuts back (a bad thing to do regularly
for long controller life).

Also make sure you don't get wet air to the controller, water
contamination is one of the main reasons I don't set them up for air
cooling.

-Otmar

Thanks for the quick reply Otmar!

The heatsink will have it's own ducted in/out air supply like in the Gizmo blog, so water should not be a problem.

The light will be hooked up so we will be alerted if it is getting hot.

I am a bit disappointed the zilla cannot use only the baseplate for cooling. yes, yes, heat conductivity and all that sciency stuff... 

The owner wanted a "fluid-less car" without all the associated hassles such as drips and filling and antifreeze, not to mention pumps and tubing and reservoirs etc. but now that is looking less likely.  we'll see..

Maybe I can hook up a reservoir and tubes so it has some thermal mass absorption and thermosiphon? The old yanmar tractors had no water pump and they were very reliable. 

This is an electric car, not a mobile aquarium. 

Here is a pic of a 1939 Jaguar SS custom roadster. Camera still mad at compute. real photos coming someday...










Cheers


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## peggus (Feb 18, 2008)

I've seen what happens to crimped aluminum connections without noalox, so I use it in all my aluminum connections. I wouldn't bother putting it in copper connections.


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