# golden motor 20kw peak motor



## Pierre spiteri (Apr 13, 2009)

hi all i have a 48v ge 11 inch motor (with a 500amp controller) and i also have a 72v goldenmotor (with a 500amp controller). I would like to convert a peugoet 106 which weights about 780kgs. I would like to ask which motor would be more suitabile for the conversion. The bldc 72v motor is very compact . thanks for your help


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## frodus (Apr 12, 2008)

The golden motor is a bit small in my opinion, for anything larger than a motorcycle.

Use the 11" GE motor, you'll need the torque. It'l be ok to run it at higher voltages (to a point).


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## neptronix (Nov 26, 2012)

Why too small? it's liquid cooled and the spec sheet says it can do 20kw continuous ( 26hp at the controller level, 22hp to the shaft ) at 85% efficiency. If you circulate the liquid at a decent rate, you could make up for it's small size / heat shedding ability, maybe even push it into 25kW, though you'd be around 82% efficiency.

( these numbers are based on the 120v motor being ran at 119v )

At 37.5lbs, it's got the highest power:weight ratio of anything capable of moving a small car, for the dollar anyway ( Good luck getting your hands on a tesla motor )


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## frodus (Apr 12, 2008)

Like i said:


frodus said:


> The golden motor is a bit small in my opinion, for anything larger than a motorcycle.


IMHO, it's too small for anything larger than a motorcycle. It just doesn't have enough power to move a small car... I realize it's a small car, but 22hp is pitiful... it will have terrible acceleration (he might as well push the car). The 11" GE is a much better choice.


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## neptronix (Nov 26, 2012)

Pitiful, yes. But for a small grocery getter / city street / frontage road car, it will work for a cheap setup capable of doing 40-50mph.

A car like the geo metro only put a peak of 52 horsepower down to the wheels, peaking at 59ft-lb of torque. I'd think that a 20kW continuous motor could accelerate from a stall quicker.

I've seen slower motors used on builds at evalbum. I know you like high power, but i'm thinking in terms of a cheap way to get off gas.. a $790 motor capable of pushing a car around in the city is a good place to start 



frodus said:


> Like i said:
> 
> IMHO, it's too small for anything larger than a motorcycle. It just doesn't have enough power to move a small car... I realize it's a small car, but 22hp is pitiful... it will have terrible acceleration (he might as well push the car). The 11" GE is a much better choice.


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## frodus (Apr 12, 2008)

The 11" motor is a MUCH better motor for the application. He's already got it, so he should put it to use!


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## RC71 (Sep 14, 2012)

Hey there, I was thinking of using this motor for a 2000lbs conversion. Do you think the 72v motor will push it to 50mph?


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## frodus (Apr 12, 2008)

Will it? Probably not, but it might and if it does it WILL take a long time to get there.

It's a 26hp motor with a peak torque of about 30Nm (about 22ftlbs) at 72V. Then at 120V, you peak at 38Nm and 28ftlbs. That's really low torque for a 2000lb vehicle. I'd suggest getting something with at least 3-4times that torque.

http://www.goldenmotor.com/eCar/HPM10KW%20(72V)%20Data.pdf

http://www.goldenmotor.com/eCar/HPM10KW (120V) Data.pdf


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## neptronix (Nov 26, 2012)

What frodus says is probably right. 

Acceleration to me, is not a big deal, but on hill climbs, i think this motor would get thermally overloaded. I may be tempted to push it into 25kw-30kw..

http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=34&t=46009&start=15

On the endless sphere forum, we discussed this motor and someone showed me the design of it. I seems like only 1 stator gets cooled. Also

I have decided instead, on another budget option.. a netgain impulse 9 ( 129lb ) + a Alltrax SPM-72500 500A 72v. The controller is very cheap, so i can sell it and decide on another controller later + run higher voltage if the ~30hp is not enough.


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## RC71 (Sep 14, 2012)

Thanks guys. Thats kind of what i figured. I was trying to do something cheap. Any ideas other than a forklift motor?


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## smpavlik (Mar 28, 2011)

RC71 said:


> Any ideas other than a forklift motor?


BLDC itself is good. I use ME0913 and if you don't want to race, 30 kW peak is enough but take care about a controller. It must deliver enough power right from the start. Take a look how weak is Kelly 400A - http://www.pavlinkev.ca/35-first-test-drive-video.html


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## ruckus (Apr 15, 2009)

I vote you use the Golden motor. Why? because nobody else has. Only one way to find out what it will do. I would over-volt it as much as the controller will tolerate. 

That GE will be waiting in the garage if the Golden blows. 

Do you have torque ratings on the motor? Amp ratings? BLDC should be good to 3X continuous rating if controller goes that high.

Good luck!


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## neptronix (Nov 26, 2012)

ruckus said:


> I vote you use the Golden motor. Why? because nobody else has. Only one way to find out what it will do. I would over-volt it as much as the controller will tolerate.
> 
> That GE will be waiting in the garage if the Golden blows.
> 
> ...


Hey; golden motor has efficiency plots, graphs etc on their website.
Over volting would be the best option, for sure.
Unfortunately, it looks like the 72v 5-10kw motor is the most efficient ( hangs around 88% efficiency and seems to be able to do ~9000w continuous ), and on the big 10-20kw units, the liquid cooling unit only cools one side of the stator effectively, and can only peak at 85% efficiency. So the big 10-20kw is a no-no.

Two of the 5-10kw units in parallel would make for a nice 18kw continuous. At ~88% efficient + double the water circulation, it could probably deal with that thermally. 

Here's a dude who thought that running one of the 10-20kw continuous motors on a 3,800lb minivan would be a good idea.

Before:






After: 






lol..


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## RC71 (Sep 14, 2012)

Hey Man, Thats a good idea. How do I mechanically connect the two motors? Do they make them with a double shaft? I am converting a 71 super beetle.


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## neptronix (Nov 26, 2012)

RC71 said:


> Hey Man, Thats a good idea. How do I mechanically connect the two motors? Do they make them with a double shaft? I am converting a 71 super beetle.


A bit ghetto, but chain would do it. #50 or #40 chain on each motor would be fine. Run both of the motors to whatever the appropriate size shaft is for your motor, and mount the shaft to the chassis or transmission using two pillow blocks ( mounted bearings ) - so, sorta like making a jackshaft.

When you figure in the cost of multiple brushless controllers though, the brushed stuff wins in value/price again though. Two Motenergy 1003's would be quite good.


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## RC71 (Sep 14, 2012)

Yah, those motors seem like a good price. Do I need two controllers or just one. Do you have pics or a source for information on how to mount those suckers the way you suggested.


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## neptronix (Nov 26, 2012)

RC71 said:


> Yah, those motors seem like a good price. Do I need two controllers or just one. Do you have pics or a source for information on how to mount those suckers the way you suggested.


You can't run multiple brushless motors in parallel, so you will need one controller per motor.

Mounting will depend on your car of course, but here's what a jackshaft looks like to give you some visual idea of what i'm talking about.


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## RC71 (Sep 14, 2012)

Alright Man. I think thats what I am going to do. What kind of performance do you think I can get using the two motors to power a 2200Lbs beetle?


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## neptronix (Nov 26, 2012)

RC71 said:


> Alright Man. I think thats what I am going to do. What kind of performance do you think I can get using the two motors to power a 2200Lbs beetle?


Using 2 of the 5-10kw motors at 9kw each, it will be slow. 3 might be decent.

Two motenergy 1003's would be a cheaper setup though because the controllers would cost less, and such a setup might be more efficient too.

Mind you, you are talking to someone who has never built an electric car or has much of an idea of the power requirements. I wouldn't listen too hard to me. I've built ebikes for many years now, but never a car. If you invest in these motors, make sure you have some other use for them down the road if it doesn't work out ( just one of the 5-10kw motors would be pretty good on a motorcycle or scooter though! )


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## PStechPaul (May 1, 2012)

Interesting video about the motor. Seems like the fluid cooling does not protect the magnets from overheating and demagnetizing. Even the windings do not seem to have any real thermal conduction to the coolant jacket, which appears to be only on one end of the motor. Otherwise it seemed to do a fair job of powering the van with about 20kW peak.


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## neptronix (Nov 26, 2012)

Yeah, it's a piss poor design really, just wicks heat off the case ultimately.
But for the half sized motor, i'd imagine it would do a good job.

The 72v half size motor seems to be about 88% efficient VS. the others which hang around 85-86% efficiency; that makes a difference too.

At 9kW continuous, that motor has to shed about 1000w continuous. That's actually a lot of heat for such a small thermal mass though. It's a coin toss on whether they could tolerate that for very long.


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## GREENHORNET (Dec 25, 2012)

Here is a dual motor setup where you can get an idea from. 
http://www.lmcltd.net/uploads/documents/lem_2x2_installation.pdf

I will provide some attachments also for some dual motor designs to look at for more ideas. 

Dragsters run dual motors such as the Warp 8" and 9" boys. They also use Zilla 2k and often multiple 2k controllers at that. I have seen people go with 3 motors and controllers in fact! 

Check out the Tango here it uses dual motors to run the two rear wheels = http://www.commutercars.com/

The tango is smaller than the mini and it achieves something like a 12.5 sec 1/4mile with a top speed well over 100mph! I think it uses 2 ADC FB1-4001 9" motors with 1 Zilla Z2k controller. 

By running 2 motors on the 2 rear wheels you eliminate the rear differential which is beneficial for weight savings. You can also switch between series and parallel in a way acting as an electronic transmission for higher speeds. Dragsters use this technique as well as motorcycles with varied degrees of success. The notable White Zombie uses this method of electronic shifting if you will but with his motors in tandem on a single shaft coupled to a driveshaft attached to the rear Ford 9" differential. 

Motorcycles have done what you are thinking about doing for years they typically go with the Lynch or Agni brushed perm magnet designs for power to weight ratios. These motors however are not cheap so to speak but are for there size pretty powerful and well built. These motor designs though would require a dual controller in most cases. Here is a link to a guy who has done it = http://www.evalbum.com/2224

Here is also an article link that talks a little about it = http://www.widgetserver.com/syndica...ctric-cars-are-for-girls.com/lynch-motor.html

Series Dc motors in tandem can work well off of a single controller so this is often the preferred route to go for low cost and low end torque ability. Series motors are not the most efficient of the bunch but its pretty hard to beat for the price of a used motor option. 

You can also go the AC route and get it used then get it rewound and overclocked to run at a higher frequency. A good option for this is the lightweight CMG = http://www.cmggroup.com.au/CMG_Motors_SLA.php
You can pick these up fairly cheap used I have seen them for under $500! CMG will also rewind them to your specs for a great price. Here is a guy who did just that = http://www.evalbum.com/2688

So there are plenty of options for you to ponder I hope this post was helpful the best of luck to you and your project.

GreenHornet


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## neptronix (Nov 26, 2012)

Hey, nice first post! Thanks for the tips. Maybe RWD direct drive can be done, but i never thought of doing that because it would require an oversized motor. But maybe the benefits out weigh the downsides considering the more narrow speed range that i'm looking for.


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## GREENHORNET (Dec 25, 2012)

Anytime Neptronix and to all others who might find my posts helpful  

I am happy to help out where I can! 

The direct drive RWD option can absolutely be done it just depends really on the component selection and the performance desired. There are many people who feel as though you do not need a transmission in an electric car yet look how many people have them. Out of those people who have them look at how many have manuals vs automatics. The consensus usually leans to manual transmissions, yet there are still people who have very successful conversions with automatic transmissions. In fact some of the fastest EV have simple 2 speed automatic transmissions such as the Powerglides or better yet the Colemans that weigh in at a mere 35lbs = http://www.colemanracing.com/Lightweight-2-speed-Transmission-P6179.aspx

So what I am getting at here is a successful EV project takes time and a great deal of thought as to the component selection and how they will all work together to achieve your desired goals. If you are willing to put in the time and effort to see a project to completion than really anything can be accomplished that you set your mind to! 

Anything is possible have a good evening my friend  

GreenHornet


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## 97flexy (Apr 2, 2014)

RC71 said:


> Alright Man. I think thats what I am going to do. What kind of performance do you think I can get using the two motors to power a 2200Lbs beetle?


A 2200lbs vw bug is heavy! you gotta remember to make it electric you will be removing your engine and engine harness, fuel tank, and and trans. I had my Drag bug down to 1600lbs with me in it and a full tank of fuel. If you run two motors, you could also look into using the stock IRS rear suspension and running the stock axles to pillow blocks on a custom rear plate connected to the bugs tub. Then build two separate motor mounts above each pillow block and run one motor to each wheel. You will need to use one throttle controller to run both controllers so that you have the same amount of power going to each motor.


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