# Reposting, 86 Year Old Uncle Still Trying After 34 Years to get EV1-B Car Running



## alfamuppet (Jun 8, 2016)

Hi


Your using a design of dc controller built for the 1970´s fork lift truck market. My background is military electronics and I believe you are becoming un stuck with age related problems. No semiconductor device has a life beyond 20 years, at which point it will fail or semi fail intermittently. Electrolytic capacitors have no life after approximately ten years, even less if they are unused (about 3 years) the ESR of them will rise to practically not represent a capacitor at all, the rest of the components i.e. resistors, polyester capacitors etc will deteriorate voltage wise and will either breakdown or short circuit. Cut a lot of heartache out and expense, purchase a modern dc controller, check your motor winding´s with a Megger (insulation tester) and replace if necessary. I know it is not the advice you were looking for but is the most practical and economical and the only certain way your Uncle will be able to drive his EV.


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## MattsAwesomeStuff (Aug 10, 2017)

> the only certain way your Uncle will be able to drive his EV.


I have GE EV-1 controller from 1969. Works fine.

I don't think it even has electrolytic capacitors.

Semiconductors only being rated for 20 years.... come on man. 20 years ago was 1998. Yeah a few devices are going to go bad over time, but, it's not a plague (except for the capacitor plague, devices from early 2000s infamously fail due to attempted trade secret theft and counterfeit electrolyte failing).

It would certainly be easier to spend $100 on a little golf kart controller and be done with it, but, he's not condemned to failure just because he's using an old controller.


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## Electric Forklift Guy (Dec 13, 2012)

I run into running EV-1 on a regular basis.

Historically the most likely point of failure is the plug in the back of the oscillator card (the card that flips forward) FSIP.biz sells rebuilt cards to fix this problem
(they also have the tech manual for it as a FREE down load).

If the card does not try to close the directional contactors there are several possibilities

-PMT trip
It sees voltage at T2 causing it to believe that the "1A"contactor is welded, a directional contactor is welded , or 1 Rec is shorted.

Just measure from (Batt -) to (T2) .
they are both under the silver tag on the card that identifies their location.

You will detect a voltage because of frame capacitance but it should be greater than 15% and less than 85% of battery voltage, if it isnt the card will not send a signal via terminal R3 to turn the driver for the directional contactor on ( its the small black box with 4 screw terminals)

-SRO trip.
The card needs to see the vehicle in "neutral" before it will close a contactor

No directional input, no brake switches open and the throttle at zero.

-Bad oscillator card.

-The driver (small black box with 4 terms) is bad.

- Bad wiring harness.

But my money is the terminals in the back of the oscillator card have corroded.


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## sjd.aliyan (Jan 17, 2018)

Running this thing probably costs you more than using a well designed update controller.


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## alfamuppet (Jun 8, 2016)

MattsAwesomeStuff said:


> I have GE EV-1 controller from 1969. Works fine.
> 
> I don't think it even has electrolytic capacitors.
> 
> ...



After 20 years every semiconductor device becomes a lottery, the percentage of failures starts to climb slowly and increasingly, it's the chemical breakdown of the metalised layers used in production of integrated circuits/diodes/thyristors(EV1) etc. Your driving an ev on the road and I would not want anyone to have a random failure whilst driving which could be avoided just by having a new dc controller. Granted the EV1 is a bit stylish - but leave it for the mantelpiece not the highway.


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## Electric Forklift Guy (Dec 13, 2012)

sjd.aliyan said:


> Running this thing probably costs you more than using a well designed update controller.


I actually have a running EV1B in the shop right now 

A Clark EC500-25 made specially for Sears

It was built in 1972 ,and the electrics are good , it's the mast thats worn out.

We are actually debating repaing the mast trunions and using it as a "Shop Truck" because it is so easy and cheap to keep running.

The only reason the OP is having trouble is that they stopped teaching high current DC in school because it isn't used anymore.

I had a two year "Idustrial Electronics" degree , and 7 years working on electronics in the Navy before I started working for my father and it was a STEEP learning curve.

I went from trouble shooting everything from static exciters for 1.75 MW Generators , 20 ton electric winches , The ships telecommunication systems ,Flight deck lighting systems, 360 ton Air Conditioner systems ( With PLC's ) and the ice maker in the Officers Mess.

Then I got out , sat down with a Clark TM-15 ( EV-100 controller ) and was completely mystified.
I could identify the components and test them individualy but using a transformer on a DC system to catch the current spike to the motor and use that to charge a capacitor so it could then be used to reverse bias the SCR to turn it back off,( and rated for 1000 amp) and the act of charging the capacitor reverse biases the SCR you used to connect the capacitor to the main SCR.... I knew what PWM was , but I never saw anything like that before.

I know what ptandjb is going through.


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## puddleglum (Oct 22, 2008)

Electric Forklift Guy said:


> FSIP.biz sells rebuilt cards to fix this problem
> (they also have the tech manual for it as a FREE down load).


To the OP. I've found FSIP to be a great resource. They have a forum there as well so you might want to post your questions there also and see what they say, but the suggestions made already are good ones. As for this old tech vs new controllers, these old controllers may be crude and bulky, but they have stood the test of time and many are still working fine. Parts and tech support are easily available as well. That can't be said for most of the new high tech EV controllers most guys on here are using.


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## ptandjb (Sep 26, 2017)

I am intimidated by the difficulty of all this. Tomorrow will discuss options with my uncle at a family gathering. I expect he will repeat that if a new controller is required he will purchase one, that this expense pales in respect to his decades old dream to drive this car.


Called FSIP tech support who said they do not sell parts for this controller, only offer a re-manufacturing option. They declined to give me a cost and lead time estimate even though I read him specific information from the original invoice and spec sheet, saying he needed actual part numbers from the actual unit.


We will try one last time to see if it will send power to the motor using a test procedure I am now writing. If that fails will try some limited troubleshooting based on tests suggested in the manual and here. If results are inconclusive again or I prove unit defective, I see no other choice but to remove the unit. Is it possible to bench test the unit out of the car?



I will want to know if I find defective components, where can I find replacements since FSIP said they do not sell them? Are there any other options for repair other than shipping the entire unit back to FSIP?


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## MattsAwesomeStuff (Aug 10, 2017)

Electric Forklift Guy said:


> I could identify the components and test them individualy but using a transformer on a DC system to catch the current spike to the motor and use that to charge a capacitor so it could then be used to reverse bias the SCR to turn it back off,( and rated for 1000 amp) and the act of charging the capacitor reverse biases the SCR you used to connect the capacitor to the main SCR.... I knew what PWM was , but I never saw anything like that before.


That explanation succinctly summarizes what ten hours of reading and asking questions couldn't for me.

I finally get it now.


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## puddleglum (Oct 22, 2008)

ptandjb said:


> I am intimidated by the difficulty of all this.
> 
> Called FSIP tech support who said they do not sell parts for this controller, only offer a re-manufacturing option. They declined to give me a cost and lead time estimate even though I read him specific information from the original invoice and spec sheet, saying he needed actual part numbers from the actual unit.
> 
> I will want to know if I find defective components, where can I find replacements since FSIP said they do not sell them? Are there any other options for repair other than shipping the entire unit back to FSIP?


Sorry to hear they weren't more help. It may be because the controller was a version built for EV use and not a forklift application. What is the voltage of the car? At least you still have a last resort option of sending it to them.


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## ptandjb (Sep 26, 2017)

Two parallel rows of 5 12v batteries. Talked again with Flight Systems tech support, they recommended re-manufacture even if they bench test the unit good if we wanted reliable operation. If unit is too old to support re-manufacture by them they guaranteed they would have a re-manufactured unit that would work. My uncle is tired if waiting, cost is not a concern anymore, time is. One of his daughters cornered me and said, all he wants in life is to drive this car once around the block before he dies. So tomorrow me and my cousin will visit my indestructible ageless uncle at work, do another test run through then out the unit comes if it fails to run again and i will get Flight Systems on the phone.


Pic below of uncle yesterday with a granddaughter and one of his 18 and counting great-grandchildren. Yes, he would fit right in with ZZ Top.


http://ptandjb.com/eddiesEV1/uncle0791.JPG


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## MattsAwesomeStuff (Aug 10, 2017)

There are some very, very simple 36 and 48v golf cart controllers for $100-$300. My Curtis controller would do that.

Generally closer to the $100.

I'd go with one of those.

Literally just add the keyswitch, a potbox for speed, and strap the battery and the motor to it. Done and done.

Probably won't do highway speeds, but, neither will the old forklift controller.


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## Electric Forklift Guy (Dec 13, 2012)

ptandjb said:


> Two parallel rows of 5 12v batteries. Talked again with Flight Systems tech support, they recommended re-manufacture even if they bench test the unit good if we wanted reliable operation. If unit is too old to support re-manufacture by them they guaranteed they would have a re-manufactured unit that would work. My uncle is tired if waiting, cost is not a concern anymore, time is. One of his daughters cornered me and said, all he wants in life is to drive this car once around the block before he dies. So tomorrow me and my cousin will visit my indestructible ageless uncle at work, do another test run through then out the unit comes if it fails to run again and i will get Flight Systems on the phone.
> 
> 
> Pic below of uncle yesterday with a granddaughter and one of his 18 and counting great-grandchildren. Yes, he would fit right in with ZZ Top.
> ...



Yeah the issue is the voltage , if it was 24, 36, or 48v they have them sitting on the shelf for exchange.


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## Electric Forklift Guy (Dec 13, 2012)

ptandjb said:


> To All,
> 
> I am reposting from last year asking for any available advice as me and my cousin continue to try to help get my uncle’s EV project started in 1984 to a successful conclusion.
> 
> ...



I hope you read this even though it is an old thread , but I blew up your controller picture to see if I could check the wiring connections and....

...your 1A contactor is welded.

It's the large relay/contactor in the bottom right of the picture.

The controller will not close a directional contactor until it sees that thing open.( It's failing the "Look Ahead Test")


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## ptandjb (Sep 26, 2017)

Decided to send the 35 year old EV1-B unit back to FSIP for diagnostics. Bench tested, the unit had multiple failures. Uncle opted for full remanufacture at cost of $579. Installed remanufactured unit in car, did a bit more wiring work to fully implement the design, then successfully ran the jacked up car in forward and reverse by hand operating the FSIP Model 800 Accelerator mounted on a switch board mockup. Now we move forward on to other issues.
A few pictures:
It was dark starting work so my uncle lifted my cousin to the ceiling to replace burnt out lights:
http://ptandjb.com/eddiesEV1/lightschange0842.JPG
We were working on filling the brake cylinder and lines with fluid, uncle is working the brake pedal while cousin trying unsuccessfully to get brake fluid down the lines. Eventually discovered the 35 year old brake lines were blocked by corrosion, so all are being replaced. 
http://ptandjb.com/eddiesEV1/brakeline0900.JPG
Our biggest current issue as we move switching controls to the driver position is figuring out how to integrate the E30-M800-001 FSIP Model 800 Accelerator into the car. While it is 35 years old it appears to work just fine, I guess it is probably comparable to current FSIP Model 810.
http://ptandjb.com/eddiesEV1/accelSW0847.JPG
The FSIP Model 800 Accelerator has two switches and a trimpot. The spring loaded accelerator arm so far we pushed manually by hand in testing the wiring and motor. As shown the top of the arm is moved from right to left. As the arm movement begins the ACCEL START switch is closed. As the arm moves left the trimpot send command for increased speed. We did not bottom out the arm to make the 1A BYPASS switch with the wheels turning for fear of excessive speed with the wheels jacked up. That function will be tested later.
My uncle machined a provisional floor accelerator pedal which he shows below the now disconnected Model 800 Accelerator. Here we are stuck. How do we integrate this accelerator with a foot operated pedal? We do not have a clue. My uncle who previously owned a machine shop for decades can build anything.
Also will consider other recommendations for implementing the accelerator function. While my uncle has been mentioning retiring now and then he said finishing and driving the car first is a requirement.


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## PStechPaul (May 1, 2012)

It looks like there could be many ways to connect the machined accelerator pedal to the electronic control unit:

```
<IMG src="http://ptandjb.com/eddiesEV1/accelSW0847.JPG" width="800"></IMG>
```










Simplest might be a cable as used in bicycles, motorcycles, tractors, lawn mowers, and cars. You will need to rig some linkage to adapt the range of motion of the pedal to that of the control, and add springs to return the position to minimum when released. Can you post a short video showing the action of the motor as the accelerator is positioned? Seems like you are 95% there.


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## puddleglum (Oct 22, 2008)

I don't know your space constraints, but looks like you could rotate the control so the lever moves vertically and attach a link from the lever to the front of the pedal.

I finally just looked at the pictures of his car. I didn't realize it was a Trimagnum build. Very cool! I've wished I could do one of those for decades.


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## ptandjb (Sep 26, 2017)

Much progress has been made, car and controller are largely operational, previous problems solved. One big issue with the ammeter gauge was solved by running independent power, ground, and signal wires directly from the 500 amp shunt. Much of car infrastructure outside the fiberglass body had to be replaced as stuff goes bad sitting for decades. 86 year old uncle may be forced to retire at years end because the construction company he works for is being sold, so we are working expeditiously to full completion and a few issues are currently outstanding. My last three or so emails/technical support calls to Flight Systems Industrial Products have gone unanswered so I will post my questions here.


I made a few short videos. The first is uncle testing the car horn:


http://ptandjb.com/eddiesEV1/horn0941.MOV

The second is a view of dashboard under construction and a view of engine compartment.


http://ptandjb.com/eddiesEV1/intro0940.MOV


The third is a test of the controller and motor contactors. The car has tires but is up on blocks so the tires can spin freely. The plan was to press the accelerator to activate the Start switch and then before the motor had time to spin the tires up to unsafe speeds press the accelerator to make the Bypass switch for full function test. This was done in forward and reverse.

http://ptandjb.com/eddiesEV1/motor0943.MOV



The first question we have does the sound of the motor and differential sound OK, does anyone hear an issue?


The second question is really big, in that it appears that the wiring to the motor is reversed in that putting the car in forward with positive input to L9, the wheels spin in reverse, and putting the car in reverse with positive input to L10, the wheels spin forward. Uncle and cousin are hoping against hope that this will change when we get the car off blocks and trailer for parking lot test runs, but I doubt it. Swapping the wiring on the motor would be messy, uncle wants to know if we can simply relabel the forward/reverse switch, does it matter, is there an intrinsic difference in the controller between forward and reverse functions of the EV-1B controller?


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## MattsAwesomeStuff (Aug 10, 2017)

It works!

If it's just a series DC motor (I think it is), you can switch the direction it rotates by just moving 2 motor wires, shouldn't have an impact otherwise.

The motor has 4 terminals. The start and end of 2 different coils. One coil is the rotating part of the motor, the other coil is the stationary part of the motor. 

All you have to do, is pick ONE pair of those wires, and swap them. Not both pairs, just one pair. Doesn't matter which pair. Doesn't matter which is positive or negative. Whatever they are, just have them trade places.

You could do this at the motor, or, at the controller, shouldn't matter. But only swap cables that go to the motor. If there are other wires on the same terminal (like if you have a big stack of Negative wires), leave those alone. So it's easier to not screw it up by just changing them at the motor.


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

ptandjb said:


> ... Swapping the wiring on the motor would be messy, uncle wants to know if we can simply relabel the forward/reverse switch, does it matter, is there an intrinsic difference in the controller between forward and reverse functions of the EV-1B controller?


Many fork trucks run 50/50 forward/reverse so I don't think there is functional difference. I'd relabel the switch and try it. Rewire if necessary.

major


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## Electric Forklift Guy (Dec 13, 2012)

major said:


> Many fork trucks run 50/50 forward/reverse so I don't think there is functional difference. I'd relabel the switch and try it. Rewire if necessary.
> 
> major



The EV1 card doesn't even monitor which direction you are going.
Direction control is done externally , all the EV1 does is turn on a driver (labeled "PMTD") that allows the direction contactors to close.



You have full speed in both directions.
( Something you need to remember when backing up )


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