# Tevie2 Metro



## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

I have had this Metro sitting around the shop for about a year, and it has a rod knock. This is an early Metro, so the weight is closer to 1600 lbs stock.


















The Motor and Controller: I have an Hpevs ac74 on its way for another metro that I have that has an ac35/7601 setup, so the ac35 and 1238-7601 are going into this one. I have a batch of 1238 chill plates being milled right now, so I will leave the chill plate that is currently attached to the 7601 on.

The Charger and BMS: debating on the EMW or an Elcon with can bus control. I am going to use an Orion BMS for this rig, and am interested in being able to control the charger via CAN. I am not sure if the EMW is able to be controlled via can bus or not but I believe the Elcon 5000 is. From what I have read, the EMW blows the doors off of the Elcon, but I am very interested in the CAN control.

The Batteries: I have a pack of 36 Tornado 200ah cells, advertised for 3c/7c here and ready to go.

Instrumentation: Samsung Galaxy 7" running the Torque app, curtis spyglass.

Motor adapter plate and clutch hub: I have a batch of one piece aluminum motor plates almost ready, and I already have a batch of clutch hubs here and ready. Clutch is standing by as well, 4 puck racing clutch with heavy duty pressure plate.

Heater: 2 ceramic elements from cheap space heaters. Still debating on air conditioning.

I went ahead and pulled some Ice stuff off today...


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## TheSGC (Nov 15, 2007)

Nice! I'm rebuilding a 1992 Solectria Force, which is a 92 Metro. They are really tiny, simple cars, which makes them really easy to repair.


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## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

I am very interested in the low weight. The other metro that I just completed is a newer body style that is a couple hundred lbs heavier and that one blows the doors off of a leaf for watt hours per mile. Hopefully this lighter chassis will do even better.


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## Russco (Dec 23, 2008)

evmetro said:


> I am very interested in the low weight. The other metro that I just completed is a newer body style that is a couple hundred lbs heavier and that one blows the doors off of a leaf for watt hours per mile. Hopefully this lighter chassis will do even better.


What are your watt hours/mile?


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## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

Rusco, I am still determining this figure, and am still experimenting with 220 charges, 110 charges, 100 mph cruises, in town traffic commutes, etc. This makes it hard to nail down a figure, but from what I can tell so far I got really lucky on the custom front bumper on that rig. I did not do any technical studies when I built it, so I do not know how it would look in a wind tunnel, but there is a distinctive difference at speeds over 55mph. The whine of the transmission is far quieter now, and I can just feel the difference. I won't state a number yet, but I will say that 160wh is a rough estimate... I prefer to not state that yet and the have to retract it.


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## Russco (Dec 23, 2008)

evmetro said:


> Rusco, I am still determining this figure, and am still experimenting with 220 charges, 110 charges, 100 mph cruises, in town traffic commutes, etc. I won't state a number yet, but I will say that 160wh is a rough estimate... I prefer to not state that yet and the have to retract it.


Excellent. I have a 1994 Metro EV and am very interested in your stats. 

Have you seen John's '91 at:

http://www.evalbum.com/4466

He has a blog all about his EV. Seems really efficient. He's done aero mods also.

Keep up the good work.


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## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

It is becoming known to the general public that going electric is more efficient, but there are very few who have begun comparing how efficient one EV is compared to another. This is what I would like to focus on with this metro build. My starting curb weight is a couple hundred lbs lighter than my last metro build and I plan more use of aluminum in this one. I need to be even more aggressive with this one as far as weight since I am seeing the most kwh usage on surface streets where I need to stop and go a lot. The mild aerodynamic mod on the front end like my last build has will take care of the freeway..


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## onegreenev (May 18, 2012)

evmetro,

I am getting 4.1 miles per kWh. At that rate I should be getting 94 miles per charge if I were using the full 24kWh of the pack. But since I don't get that distance I know that the Leaf is limiting the distances drivable to protect the pack. I am getting more like 65 to 75 miles depending upon my driving style and use of heat or air. I usually drive at around 57 to 60 mph daily on the same route now for the past two years. Still getting the same distances revealed by the guess o meter. When I got my Leaf updated a few weeks ago it gave me a total of 88 miles my first full day after then the computer slowly crept back to showing that I only get about 78 miles. But shows only 65 to 75 after a days commute. 
The Guess-O-Meter really sucks but the 4.1 miles per kWh has been consistent since I purchased the vehicle. 

So when the computer has not learned anything and is not limiting my pack much it shows more of the reality of the distances I can get. If there were no limits on the pack Id bet I would get very close to that 94 miles. 

I would like to see the miles per kWh used when you gather that information.


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## Ampster (Oct 6, 2012)

Pete, 
When you say your Leaf has a capacity of 24kWhr, is that the useable capacity or the total capacity? For example, my RAV4EV has an advertised capacity of 41kWhr, and the battery management system lets me use all of that. Therefore many have speculated that the actual capacity is 51kWhr and the 41kWr keeps us safely away from the top or the bottom. I tried to google the Leaf battery capacity but couldn't find a clear answer. Different manufacturers use different standards and like the Leaf, I have no instrumentation that tells me directly, in kWhrs, how much capacity I have left in my pack.


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## MN Driver (Sep 29, 2009)

The Leaf has a 24kwh battery pack and I think the accessible amount for a new pack is 21.3kwh if I remember right. The Leaf also has an 80% charge mode and has a lot of room where it displays low battery warnings and very low battery warnings before it turtles and powers down.


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## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

Ironical that I have my nose up to the leaf, and we are having a discussion about it on this thread. I suppose this will give me the drive to exceed the leaf capabilities in as many ways as possible and by higher margins with this build. It sounds like 100 miles range with a 23kwh pack (total usable and unusable) should be my minumum goal. I have already determined that this drivetrain will reach 100 mph in another heavier build. Since we are discussing the leaf here, what kind of acceleration do I need to leave the leaf behind at a red light?


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## onegreenev (May 18, 2012)

0 to 60 is right around 9 seconds


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## dtbaker (Jan 5, 2008)

evmetro said:


> what kind of acceleration do I need to leave the leaf behind at a red light?


sub-9 0-60 is pretty darn quick. I think you'll be limited by available traction with stock rubber even with a good 60/40 weight distribution over the front wheels. Something to shoot for, but keep in mind that higher voltages and more amps for better accel are also less efficient.

I see far less efficiency in my Miata than my Swift... vehicles are roughly the same weight. Swift has ADC8" motor, 120v nominal from 100ah Thundersky cells and a wimpy Curtis 1221c controller; gets 3.5-4.0 miles per kWhr 'from the wall. Miata has Warp9, 156v nominal CALB 130ah cells thru Zilla 1k; averages only 2.5-3.0 miles per kWhr


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## onegreenev (May 18, 2012)

Gotta have some good LRR tires. Picking up some from Toyo for my 914 and they are a perfect replacement for the stock rubber. Very good price too. LRR tires have a big effect on efficiency.


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## valerun (Nov 12, 2010)

evmetro said:


> I have had this Metro sitting around the shop for about a year, and it has a rod knock. This is an early Metro, so the weight is closer to 1600 lbs stock.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


good project and thanks for good words about our charger ;-) one other thing to note is that we are always here to help if you have any issues with our product...


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## tomofreno (Mar 3, 2009)

onegreenev said:


> evmetro,
> 
> I am getting 4.1 miles per kWh. At that rate I should be getting 94 miles per charge if I were using the full 24kWh of the pack. But since I don't get that distance I know that the Leaf is limiting the distances drivable to protect the pack. I am getting more like 65 to 75 miles depending upon my driving style and use of heat or air. I usually drive at around 57 to 60 mph daily on the same route now for the past two years. Still getting the same distances revealed by the guess o meter. When I got my Leaf updated a few weeks ago it gave me a total of 88 miles my first full day after then the computer slowly crept back to showing that I only get about 78 miles. But shows only 65 to 75 after a days commute.
> The Guess-O-Meter really sucks but the 4.1 miles per kWh has been consistent since I purchased the vehicle.
> ...


 4.1 miles/kWh would be about 244 Wh/mile, whereas 75 miles assuming 21.3kWh usable pack energy would be 284 Wh/mile, and 65 miles would be 328 Wh/mile. I don't know which is correct, but they are quite different, and of course the latter two are even higher if there is actually 24kWh available.

You will have to use a DC motor and a 1kA controller if you want to best the acceleration of the Leaf, or spend a fortune on a powerful enough AC motor/controller evmetro. Rwaudio says his 0 - 60 time is around 5 sec:
http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showpost.php?p=360153&postcount=83


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## johnjcbs (Oct 10, 2012)

Any updates?


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## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

This one has been stuck on hold for a bit because of production delays on the motor that is going into the other EV that I am robbing the motor from for this. My new motors are done and shipping tomorrow, so we should see progress on this one pretty quick... stay tuned!


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## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

Alright, I finally got the AC35 motor out of the other car and into this guy. It is amazing how much space is left over after stuffing an AC74 into the other metro.










All three motor mounts are OEM, but there is a custom aluminum bracket fabbed for the passenger side frame rail. This bracket is 3/8 plate.


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## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

I am getting ready to stuff a bunch of batteries in front of the motor, so the lower radiator support has been modified in preparation for some battery trays. The original support was designed to hold a radiator, so it is gone.


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## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

Small change on the lower support. It is now aluminum with flanges so that I can unbolt it, and to reduce the weight. 










The two supports shown here will be joined and formed into a single structural member that doubles as a battery tray. It will be very simple to unbolt the four flanges (8 bolts) and drop the whole cross member full of lithium out the bottom. That tab in the center is where the factory vertical support goes up to the hood latch.










Here is a view from above.


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## dtbaker (Jan 5, 2008)

very nice w the aluminum. I ended up chopping out that xmember as well and made a steel U beam to support a row of batteries. I think it ended up stronger than stock, and probably would be pretty good energy absorber in case of accident.


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## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

Thanks dtb. I am going to keep a sharp eye on the weight of this build. I have to go out of my way to reduce it. There are many small ICE related brackets that I can trim off, but choosing lightweight materials will most likely be the primary method. The fun begins when trying to add style to this lightweight theme.


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## dtbaker (Jan 5, 2008)

evmetro said:


> Thanks dtb. I am going to keep a sharp eye on the weight of this build. I have to go out of my way to reduce it. There are many small ICE related brackets that I can trim off, but choosing lightweight materials will most likely be the primary method. The fun begins when trying to add style to this lightweight theme.



I've had good luck using 1/4" thick polypro sheet heat-welded for my battery boxes with NO additional edging of steel or AL. The Miata has the front battery box fabricated into a monolithic structure spanning the motor bay with some plastic cross bracing and gussetted brackets for mounting.

The Swift I had originally build w lead, so went for steel U beam.


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## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

Here the two support beams are now linked with the two trays. I was unable to run a single tray because of interference at the bell housing. Two trays it is.


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## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

Here is the basic set up:










Here is how it looks in the car. With the hold downs bolted in, I can now figure out how to build the next tray that will bee over the motor. If I can pull it off, I would like to be able to open the hood on the completed project and be able to see the motor. Adding the next layer of stuff over the motor and transmission is a little more complicated, especially if the final product is to be very attractive and lightweight.


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## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

I picked up a couple heaters to rob the ceramic cores out of. Two 1500 watt heaters for a nice warm 3000 watts.










Here is the ceramic element for those of you who have never done this before. You can tell when you buy your heater what the element looks like if you look at the box in the pic above. Below I have removed it.










I chopped off the sides of my original heater core and chopped off the water lines.










I used windshield urethane to bond the two heater elements together and attach them to the heater core frame. You can see those lines on the side closest to you in the pic... I sprayed some mold release into the area in the heater box where this heater core sets, and then squished the fresh urethane between the elements and the heater box. After it dried, the heater core popped right out of the heater box with no struggle.










Here they are wired up.










The last step in this water to electric conversion was to seal the airway between the frame of the core and the wire terminals.


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## dtbaker (Jan 5, 2008)

nice job on using the core space. I bagged that on my Swift because it looked like a huge hassle to pull the dash to get to the core.... I ended up just putting ONE element in a duct right by the fan which is easy to get to in the passenger footwell. two would be better...1500 watts is not QUITE enough.

what are you using for switching elements on/off and fusing? I had issues with first 2 seconds of heat popping fuses as elements heated up.....


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## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

I am going to use a pair of high voltage contactors for high and low. I have four heat settings in 750 watt increments on my other Metro conversion, but I think I would prefer just high and low in 1500 watt increments. There are two places where you can put switches on your heater box so that you can just turn it on with the factory heat slider control. Here is a pic from my last conversion of the heater box when you have the slider all the way to cool.










In this next pic, you can see when the slider is towards hot, and how the linkage pushes the switch to turn on the heater.










On that set up, I had one contactor come on, and then separate high voltage controls for my heat settings, but on this one, I see a second spot for a switch so that the high and low heat contactors will come on separately and incrementally based on where my heat slider knob is positioned. The end result will be no evidence that this heater works any different from factory.


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## dtbaker (Jan 5, 2008)

sweet! god bless ya for digging into that dash.
I just use the fan 'on' to power the contactor. heat is either on or off, and can only come on when fan is on.


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## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

When I use the original heater core location, there is an opportunity for the heaters to run with no air blowing over them when the heater box door is not open, which is another reason I like the momentary switches on the side of the heater box. I still use the fan wire, but it goes through these switches as well. If you use the duct as you did, there would not be the need for these other switches. I guess I am really into having the original feel and look when I build things though...


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## dtbaker (Jan 5, 2008)

is the black goop you put around the terminals.... close to the heat... silicone? what is it?


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## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

That stuff is windshield urethane. It dries into something that is like tire rubber. I used nothing but windshield urethane for the entire heater core project.


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## dtbaker (Jan 5, 2008)

evmetro said:


> That stuff is windshield urethane. It dries into something that is like tire rubber. I used nothing but windshield urethane for the entire heater core project.


huh, interesting.... gotta see if I can find me some. rated up to ? degrees F?


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## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

Ok, here is the linkage all set up with the dual contactor switches. First pic shows heat slider knob set to cold:










This next pic shows when the heat control leaves the blue strip on the dash and enters the red side of the strip which is heat. You can see that the first switch makes the first connection.










When you slide the heat control all the way to the hottest setting, the second switch connects the second contactor, and the second heater element turns on.


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## dtbaker (Jan 5, 2008)

pretty sweet switching.... what contactors are you using?


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## rwaudio (May 22, 2008)

Very nice!

I'm glad to see I'm not the only one who doesn't want a big red switch that say's Heater somewhere that it doesn't belong.
I've also integrated my heating system with microswitches on the stock controls.
Are you using EV200 contactors or is there anything smaller/cheaper out there?


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## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

I am going to use two of these. They are rated for 80 amps and 240AC or 28 VDC. I am aware that my 120 VDC does not fit those specs, but I am going to run two of these which means a total of four contacts. 750 watts per contact. Each of the two switches I installed will trigger 1500 watts since these are double pole.


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## dtbaker (Jan 5, 2008)

evmetro said:


> I am going to use two of these.



hhmmm, I hope that works for ya. the trouble with exceeding the rated DC volts, especially by that much, is that they may not open far enough to prevent arcing, and/or may not have magnetic blow-out. I would suggest cycling these a number of times under pack voltage/load with close supervision to make sure they don't melt on ya.

I know they are fairly expensive, but I would suggest sticking with a rated relay kit which is built to handle the higher DC voltage, like this one from KTA for $50....

regardless, I'll be interested to see how these work for ya.


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## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

This is the set up that I used for the other Metro, but that contactor cost me a grip. I will keep my fingers crossed on this set of contactors, since they are less than 50 bucks for the two of them. I am not really good with EV math, but it looks like each contact will be seeing up to 120 VDC and about 6 amps each. I am not sure how much of a gap is needed for the contacts. I can squeeze a dime between them if I push on it a little. I would sure like to find a more cost effective way of doing this, and it looks pretty safe. I will be sure to report back on this once she is on the road.


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## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

This upper battery box will hold 8 cells Still needs some more welding. All 1/8" 6061 aluminum, and pretty damn light.










It lays on its side with the terminals facing the firewall since the back sits a little higher than the front. In this pic, the box is not mounted to anything yet, just sitting there.


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## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

I love this fiberglass honeycomb stuff. Really strong, and incredibly light.










I built a box to hold the electronics for this ride so that I can use far less wire on this build. With nothing in this box, it weighs like an empty cardboard box. This honeycomb stuff should be really popular with the diy EV crowd.


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## onegreenev (May 18, 2012)

There are aluminum honeycomb panels like that too.


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## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

I have a feeling that if I had some of that aluminum honycomb laying around, I would find a way to use it. Cool stuff. This fiberglass stuff is not much heavier than Styrofoam.


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## dtbaker (Jan 5, 2008)

evmetro said:


> I have a feeling that if I had some of that aluminum honycomb laying around, I would find a way to use it. Cool stuff. This fiberglass stuff is not much heavier than Styrofoam.


looks promising for fab of component boxes, etc, and might even provide some EMI sheilding if it has AL foil on the surfaces?

what is the most effective technique for holding the corners together? is there a particular glue? 

also, what was your source? I haven't seen anything like this in my local hardware store....


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## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

Dtbaker, the stuff that I am using is fiberglass, so I just mixed up a batch of resin and applied it to all the mating surfaces with a 2 inch roller, and clamped it together. I will still add some cloth to the joints, but only a single layer of thin cloth.

I bent a piece of aluminum on the brake to fit the length of the box. I dropped it down a little so that I can mount toggle switches on the top of the aluminum, and then I can mount relays along the vertical part with their pins facing down.










I raised some of the contactors a little. There is room to install my two AC DC power supplies below the back two, and with the third contactor raised up a little, the wire terminals will clear some other stuff. Here is the shelf:










Here is the support for the aluminum switch / relay panel.


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## dtbaker (Jan 5, 2008)

I gotta learn how to work with fiberglass....


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## onegreenev (May 18, 2012)

Fiberglass is easy to work with. Can be messy but it is easy. Also depends if you use epoxy or polyester resin. Polyester resin is easiest. I would not do it like Metro did but it is easy. I'd glass in all edges, not just glue on blocks with resin. Not nearly as strong that way. 

Pete


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## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

GreenEV, gluing the joints together first gets the shape together. See the first sentence in post 46... There is not much need for structural integrity for this box, but if you look really close here you can see cloth when the light is on it. There is probably no need for this in this application, but a single layer like this will certainly add strength. BTW, this is polyester resin. You are very correct that this stuff is easy to work with!


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## onegreenev (May 18, 2012)

Aaaaaaah. Good to see. Did not notice that before. That should be plenty for a non structural box. Actually using epoxy is easy too. Poly is also way cheaper to work with.


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## dtbaker (Jan 5, 2008)

how much does the honeycomb cost... available in 4x8 sheets? where?

just looking at it as an alternative to the 1/4" polypro sheets I have been using to fabricate battery boxes, brackets, and component boxes....


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## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

Dt, you can google fiberglass honeycomb for a variety of suppliers. It looks like a 4x8 sheet of 3/8 starts out around $250, and goes up from there. That aluminum stuff that greenev was talking about looks pretty neat too. I could see using the fiberglass honeycomb for battery boxes... it has an insulation factor if you are in a cold climate, and it is damn sure beefy enough to hold batteries. The 3/8 stuff that I am using right now is what was holding the 20 trojan floodies in one of my other projects.


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## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

You can start to see the shape a little. relays are in, the switches will go in as I wire. I have a nine pin and an obd2 port so that I can use wifi for PC or Apple, and the nine pin is nice for Android Bluetooth. 










I also wanted a heavy switch so that I can have the DC DC "hardwired" to on all the time, or to have it come on with the ignition key. When it comes on with the ignition key, one of those big contactors will switch on the DC DC. One of the toggle switches will allow me to switch between off and key, and since I like the ON-OFF-ON switches, I will probably have the Toggle switch also turn on the DC DC via the coil on the contactor. I probably will not use that position, but I suppose I could stand there and watch the contacts on the contactor for troubleshooting purposes... Anyway, I will be able to configure the DC DC to come on however I want.


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## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

I was not into adding a terminal strip for almost 40 wires for the cell taps, so I located the Orion close to the edge and made this access hole so I can just plug it in through the side of the box. The release tab on the connecter block is on the bottom, so I made that little round cut out on the bottom of the hole so that I can get my finger in there to release it.


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## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

Here is another battery cage for 6 cells.










It will fit in this space, closest to you butted up against that shock tower. There will be room left over on the driver side of this space for other stuff. This will be the last of the cells getting stuffed under the hood... the total number of 200 ah cells under the hood is 21. The other 15 will go in the hatch, so the weight distribution on this rig will still be roughly 60/40 like a car is supposed to be.


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## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

Here is a little bit of detail on the retention system for the long battery cage that goes all the way across the top. There is a beam that goes across the engine bay to support the front of this box. The usual steel flange to aluminum flange...











There is also an aluminum beam across the back and attached with standoffs made from aluminum. The battery cage rests on these beams and is easily removed.










here is a lower view:


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## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

Here is how it looks with the 6 cell cage in place.


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## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

These cell boxes should be easier to get in and out with these cool handles. They are made out of 3/8 aluminum solid round stock.










This box is all wired up now. When I install it in the car, I will just need to hookup wires to the terminals without needing to give it much thought. Just basic stuff like key in 12 VDC + and chassis ground, HV DC in, 220 VAC in 110 VAC in, AC to charger, water pump +, etc. All the logic and switches are done. Bluetooth and wifi are already wired in... This should make it like installing a car stereo.










.


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## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

Here is the original gas tank opened up.










Here is a proposed layout of the components to fit inside... Controller and chill plate, main contactor, water pump, EMW water cooled charger. I still need to figure out ducting and fans.


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## onegreenev (May 18, 2012)

You going to make the top of that a hinged lid ? Pretty cool to utilize the fuel tank for components.


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## dtbaker (Jan 5, 2008)

interesting.... but don't you need that space to hang your rear batteries? or, are you filling up the back seat/cargo area in the cabin?


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## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

I will have a single row of 15 cells in the hatch, and then 21 cells under the hood. I don't think that I will do the hinge. Just a flange around the cut, and some fasteners to hold it together.


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## valerun (Nov 12, 2010)

evmetro said:


> Here is the original gas tank opened up.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Nice! Looks like a good fit and creative reuse of space!


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## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

Thanks Valery. I have been eyeballing those fans on the charger... Are those 12 VDC? If so, would that circuit be enough to run a couple additional fans to evacuate the hot air from the tank while the charger is running? I do have AC DC power supplies for my charge mode (plugged in to shore power), but they are only 5 amps and already powering the water pump and a bunch of relay coils, bluetooth, wifi, etc. If those fans are 12 volt and that circuit can support additional fans, could this work? Or would I need to isolate the ground as well? I think I have some relays with some extra poles...


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## valerun (Nov 12, 2010)

evmetro said:


> Thanks Valery. I have been eyeballing those fans on the charger... Are those 12 VDC? If so, would that circuit be enough to run a couple additional fans to evacuate the hot air from the tank while the charger is running? I do have AC DC power supplies for my charge mode (plugged in to shore power), but they are only 5 amps and already powering the water pump and a bunch of relay coils, bluetooth, wifi, etc. If those fans are 12 volt and that circuit can support additional fans, could this work? Or would I need to isolate the ground as well? I think I have some relays with some extra poles...
> [/IMG]


The charger's 12V supply will not run additional fans (it's a small 2A supply and 1.1A already used by the 2 fans cooling the inductors). So you will have to load any additional fans onto a separate supply.

That said, I am sure you can get away with not evacuating hot air at all. The surface area of your metal enclosure is so large that it should not have any problem dissipating ~100W generated by the 2 inductors (assuming you are removing the heat from transistors / diodes with your liquid loop. I think it would even work completely enclosed. As long as the air temp inside the tank does not go beyond 80C or so, you should be fine. I would measure surface temp during the first couple of runs and calculate temp rise and then apply that to the hottest ambient temp you are expecting to encounter. If the result is less than 80C, I would argue you don't need any additional cooling. 

Worst case, you might add some cutouts to the top of the box - a few inches before the fans and a few inches after the control board. This will force some of the cool airflow to be sucked into the box and some of the hot air expelled from it. 

Thanks,
Valery


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## dtbaker (Jan 5, 2008)

I would not rely on convective cooling.... since the charger HAS fans, just running dedicated ducts to inlet and outlet would work for the charger. 

But he's got the controller in there as well! There HAS to be ducted airflow for that to dump a couple hundred watts of heat, or fluid circulation through a chill plate to an external radiator with good airflow....


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## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

Thanks for the info. Maybe I will just add a little computer fan then. I can run something small like a computer fan off of the AC DC supplies that I already have. I just checked the amperage of my AC DC power supply circuit, and it looks like I have room for some more load. A bigger 12 VDC power supply and a terminal for adding cooling pumps and fans might be a cool feature or option to add to these chargers. I have an extra relay in the charge enable circuit so that I can have the pump and fans shut down with the charger.


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## valerun (Nov 12, 2010)

dtbaker said:


> I would not rely on convective cooling.... since the charger HAS fans, just running dedicated ducts to inlet and outlet would work for the charger.
> 
> But he's got the controller in there as well! There HAS to be ducted airflow for that to dump a couple hundred watts of heat, or fluid circulation through a chill plate to an external radiator with good airflow....


I thought the controller is also liquid cooled, no? There is no air heatsink on that thing so I assumed it's aircooled... 

Regarding cooling - I wasn't even thinking convective. With this surface level, just radiation would be enough - according to http://www.efunda.com/formulae/heat_transfer/radiation/calc_2bodies_enclosure.cfm#calc, a body of 30ft^2 (my approximation of your tank's surface, EVmetro) with temp of 80C would radiate 840 Watts into the 40C surroundings. That's quite a bit more than those inductors will produce. Maybe even enough for the controller...


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## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

Simpler is better, so I will run it without any additional fans. If I end up with too much heat, the tank will come out in ten minutes, and I can add fans if needed. Thanks very much for your advice.

The controller has a chill plate as well, and I run the controller and charger in the same liquid loop. The tank will only need an in and an out to route the coolant to a little radiator.


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## dtbaker (Jan 5, 2008)

evmetro said:


> Simpler is better, so I will run it without any additional fans. If I end up with too much heat, the tank will come out in ten minutes, and I can add fans if needed. Thanks very much for your advice.
> 
> The controller has a chill plate as well, and I run the controller and charger in the same liquid loop. The tank will only need an in and an out to route the coolant to a little radiator.



aha. well, if you've got a fluid circulation system planned, you should be in good shape. You might wanna put a wireless thermometer in there taped to the controller for a while to see how it goes.


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## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

These controllers have a gauge that they call a site glass, and it shows motor temp and rpm, controller temp, volts and amps. I have watched the temp of the controller both while the pump is running, and when the water pump is off. I can see that the water cooling makes a huge difference! I had a bunch of chill plates made for these controllers and every 1238/1239 controller that I run will get one.


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## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

The upper tie bar needed a little sheet metal work so that it looks right with the upper battery box in place. Just needed a little extra room. Still needs a little fine tuning, but you get the idea...










Here is how it looks with the box in place


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## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

Got some more work done on the tank. The 0/2 cables are not routed yet since I need to dismantle all this to paint the tank and make it pretty.










This view is the back of the tank. The water lines will go to a cooler just behind the tank. Those two electrical connections are the AC into the charger. The DC from the charger to the battery will connect within the tank.










These 5 lugs will be for the 3 phase, and for the HVDC in. The cables will run through the tunnel and make a turn to these offset lugs. I will be able to mount the tank to the car, and connect everything from the outside.


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## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

Got some primer down today on this one.










I smoothed the box tubing into the car, but left the welds showing on the battery box ends where the flanges are.










Here is the custom work to accommodate the upper battery box










I will paint the engine compartment and then build it up with the motor, tranny and batteries, and then put the suspension together. Once that is done, it will be easy to move around and I can tackle the exterior.


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## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

I ended up selecting "white" for the color. No other colors added to make a special shade of white, just white toner. The technical name for this is just "white". Below you can see that the engine bay is "white" now.










Here is a pic of what the Metro community refers to as a frame horn. The frame horns on Metros rust out very easily, and is one of the leading causes of Metro death. Once these rust out, the car is done for and dead for most people. Having frame horns like these is something to brag about in the Metro community, so here is a pic of CA style (rust free) frame horns.










.


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## crackerjackz (Jun 26, 2009)

It just amazes me how clean everything you do is ... As in perfect ... 

So let me get this straight ... You have a blue swift finished . The cadillac in construction and now your doing a second swift ... Do you convert cars for a living ? Just in battery packs you have 1/4 of my house worths lol ...


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## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

crackerjackz said:


> It just amazes me how clean everything you do is ... As in perfect ...
> 
> So let me get this straight ... You have a blue swift finished . The cadillac in construction and now your doing a second swift ... Do you convert cars for a living ? Just in battery packs you have 1/4 of my house worths lol ...


Thanks for the good words. The light blue and dark blue Metros that are completed are in my signature below. One is an AC conversion, the other is a DC conversion. This white one in this thread and the Eldorado are the two in the works right now. After these two are done, I may be look for some customers who would like professional conversions done and get the storefront up and running.


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## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

New bearings and seals. I cleaned and painted the knuckle as well. Nothing fancy, just black.











The front end will be a little heavier than the original weight, so I use these blue inner springs to get the correct spring rate. This is a new strut but the same outer coil. I cleaned and regreased the needle bearings up top and painted it as well.


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## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

There is something really cool about the machine pattern on new brake rotors that always gives me the warm fuzzies, so here is a pic. New rotors, all new wheel bearings and seals, and those wheel studs are upgraded from 10 mm to 12 mm. I am not impressed with this design where you have to unpress the hub from the wheel bearings in order to change a brake rotor, but not much I can do. It is possible to upgrade to the later model metro suspension, but for the light weight theme of this car, smaller and lighter brakes will stay along with the weird design.


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## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

This flywheel is from the bigger 4 cylinder Metro and has a 7.5" clutch surface instead of the 6.5" one that comes on the 3 cylinder model. Here, it is resurfaced.










On the backside, I had the machine shop remove the starter ring gear and mill the back lip down before they balanced it. You can see the balancing holes are drilled over top of that lip.










The reason that I have that back lip milled down is so that it will clear the four bolts that hold my motor to transmission plate to the motor.










Here is the clearance after the flywheel is installed.










The larger flywheel is still not enough to ensure that the clutch does not slip, so I also use a high performance clutch disk and pressure plate.










.


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## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

Now the motor is in, and out of the way.










I put a little bit of shine into the motor end bracket so that I could look into it and see myself with raised eyebrows.


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## dtbaker (Jan 5, 2008)

so.... what 'high performance' clutch plate is available for a metro? I'm curious because I am planning to upgrade controller in mine from curtis 1221 to a zilla 'for fun'.....


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## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

There is not much out there for 3 cylinder Metros, but once you get a 4 cylinder flywheel the internet is your friend. Google or ebay high performance clutches for 4 cylinder twin cams and turbos, especially for 89 to 94 Swifts. The flywheels are interchange between any 89 through 01 3 cylinder or 4 cylinder Metro or Swift.

Note: if you look at that pic I posted of the backside of my flywheel, you will notice the paint pen markings from Pick n Pull. It is hard to find the 4 cylinder flywheels, so I had to go pull a tranny to get my flywheel...


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## dtbaker (Jan 5, 2008)

evmetro said:


> There is not much out there for 3 cylinder Metros, but once you get a 4 cylinder flywheel the internet is your friend. Google or ebay high performance clutches for 4 cylinder twin cams and turbos, especially for 89 to 94 Swifts. The flywheels are interchange between any 89 through 01 3 cylinder or 4 cylinder Metro or Swift.
> 
> Note: if you look at that pic I posted of the backside of my flywheel, you will notice the paint pen markings from Pick n Pull. It is hard to find the 4 cylinder flywheels, so I had to go pull a tranny to get my flywheel...


mmmm I'll poke around.... mine is '97.
might just run it as it, and upgrade if/when I burn the stock one up post-zilla. perhaps there are some late metro/Swifts set up as 'rally' cars?


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## crackerjackz (Jun 26, 2009)

The work you do is a work of art lol ... Id love to clean my engine bay as much as you but theres just no point . With the snow and salt here during winter you must rustproof your car if you want it to last more than 7 years ... Hense as soon as im done the conversion everything will be grossely oiled up anyway  lol ...


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## dladd (Jun 1, 2011)

evmetro said:


> Now the motor is in, and out of the way.


i can't get over this picture. I'm in the midst of a transmission swap right now and my engine bay does not look anything like this, lol. Beautiful attention to detail, I enjoy reading about your builds.


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## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

Here are the first seven 200 ah cells










I put a little shine into the battery tray. This used to be called a lower radiator support... I guess we could call it the lower battery support now?










Here is a view from above


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## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

Here is the vacuum pump. It is a Summit Racing pump. I ran it up on the bench, and it seemed pretty reasonable on the noise level and it has rubber mounts, so it should be pretty peaceful inside the car.


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## favguy (May 2, 2008)

Hi,

I'm loving your attention to detail and polishing! Is your climate dry and salt free? If I polish aluminium here in the UK, within 2 months it gets covered in white oxide powder! 

Just a thought on your vacuum pump, have you checked it can run the way you have it installed? They are usually fitted the other way up...

Keep up the exceptional work, will be a shame to take it on the road and get it dirty!

Regards, Paul


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## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

favguy said:


> Hi,
> 
> I'm loving your attention to detail and polishing! Is your climate dry and salt free? If I polish aluminium here in the UK, within 2 months it gets covered in white oxide powder!
> 
> ...


I suppose that I am fortunate to be located right in the middle of CA, the state that comes to mind when people in USA want a rust free car. The sun takes its toll on cars as fast as the government takes a toll on its productive class, but at least rust and oxidation are not a big problem here.

As for the vacuum pump, I was not aware of a mounting orientation, but I did notice that the sticker on it appears to be oriented in the right direction. I guess if it does not work right, I will invert it on the same mount. Favguy, I have read your build and was very impressed with your work, so thanks for checking this ride out.


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## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

Here is a shot of the two beams that support the upper battery box that is not in there yet.










Here is some detail on the front support beam mounting. It looks like I will need to align those two flanges a little better before I load batteries in...










This shot shows another beam back on the firewall. This beam and the middle one will support a third battery box.










Here is a shot of the Summit Racing Vacuum tank, and a vacuum pressure switch mounted to the frame rail.


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## favguy (May 2, 2008)

What on earth are you using to polish the aluminium? It almost looks chromed!


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## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

favguy said:


> What on earth are you using to polish the aluminium? It almost looks chromed!


I just sand it down with 180 grit










and work my way up to 1000 grit










and then run the a cloth wheel on a die grinder using the white compound bar. I just polished that little spot, but the sticker on the die grinder shows a pretty clear reflection.


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## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

I finally got the big battery tray polished up. As you can see, I did not bother polishing the inside of it. Polishing takes way too much time. I was pretty anxious to see the polished aluminum next to those little reliefs in the painted upper radiator support on each of the front corners of this big tray.










One last box to polish...


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## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

I made the main fuse block today. I suppose the white plastic will match the white batteries and white paint color.










I put a drain hole on the bottom in case water ever gets under the fuse.










I want to put the fuse right here. If you look closely, you can see the two ears welded to the battery cage for a strap to hold those three cells in, so I want to make the hold down strap a little fancier so that it will also hold this fuse and holder. The positive terminal of the pack will be on the upper left where the three cells go behind the fuse.


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## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

Here is the bracket that holds the fuse block. This pic is kind of weird because you can see the reflection of the upper terminals and I was standing in a spot that makes it look like the bracket is transparent when it is just the upper terminals reflecting. I should have stood a little off to one side, but that is why I am not a professional photographer...











Bottom view










and here is the fuse installed in its new home.










.


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## Vhclbldr (Feb 8, 2014)

Between your polished aluminum and sanitary engine bay, and FavEV's attention to detail, you guys are setting the standard for quality builds! Great job!


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## onegreenev (May 18, 2012)

Seeing the Metro in person just blows your mind. The photos are great but the real deal is even better. It takes a master to do this. This is how all builds should be done. Attention to detail is just the only way. I have even had to step back and take another look at my attention to the detail I want in my build. 

Pete


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## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

onegreenev said:


> Seeing the Metro in person just blows your mind. The photos are great but the real deal is even better. It takes a master to do this. This is how all builds should be done. Attention to detail is just the only way. I have even had to step back and take another look at my attention to the detail I want in my build.
> 
> Pete


Pete it is always fun having you come through the shop, and I really appreciate the good words.

.


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## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

Woo hoo! we have a brake booster, master cylinder, and reservoir! All fresh and clean...


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## onegreenev (May 18, 2012)

Nice. One nice bit at at time and this is looking better every day. Thanks, I really enjoy stopping by to see your handy work. Just amazing. Wish I could capture that 3D look when you walk in and see that just gleaming in the light. That alone puts an EV grin on the face. 

Hey, did you get a chance to see the pictures I sent you on how the little Dyno is setup? I think that will be a great way to do this. Now to get the universal joint on the motor and pickup an old VW transmission to gut out.


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## poprock (Apr 29, 2010)

It must be an optical illusion( or delusion in my case ) but the battery carrier in attached pic appears to be mounted as part of the engine mounting. Time for me to visit Specsavers?


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## onegreenev (May 18, 2012)

Optical Delusions.


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## onegreenev (May 18, 2012)

Its an amazing bit of craftsmanship. The front upper battery box sits on its own frame. Easy to remove and solidly mounted. The lower front battery box is also a piece of art. Sold and beautiful. Check out the reflection in the polished aluminum.


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## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

Poprock, here is a pic of the support beam that goes across the engine (motor) bay. That section that sticks out is just a support for the battery box back against the firewall. In that pic that you referenced it does kinda look like some kind of motor support.


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## crackerjackz (Jun 26, 2009)

Amazing ... Theres one thing that doesnt work in my mind though and maybe im wrong ... But all this money / time and planning ... Dont get me wrong but youll have an amazing electric metro ... But still a metro ... Is there a reason you dont take a "racier" "sportier" car type for your builds ?


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## onegreenev (May 18, 2012)

Well I can answer for my choice. I chose VW because it's what I know well. It's no different with the Metro. What I see is the craftsman and craftsmanship and not the type of vehicle. A vehicle choice is truly to each their own. Racey or plain it's how it's built that counts. There is more to a Metro than most know. I learned something. M

Pete


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## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

crackerjackz said:


> Amazing ... Theres one thing that doesnt work in my mind though and maybe im wrong ... But all this money / time and planning ... Dont get me wrong but youll have an amazing electric metro ... But still a metro ... Is there a reason you dont take a "racier" "sportier" car type for your builds ?


While I have a rather unique passion for metros, the main reason here is about how many kWh are used. Metros were and still are the king of mpg in the ICE car world, so it stands to reason that they would be the king of watt hours per mile in the world of EVs. One of the themes that I have been using in this build is the use of lightweight materials, and generally doing what I can to keep this car light. I am also watching the budget on this build, so not a whole lot of stuff that is not needed. The aluminum polishing makes it look pretty, but the polishing supplies are from harbor freight and are dirt cheap. The plastic for that custom fuse holder was $1.50, and the paint that I selected for this build is single stage.


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## crackerjackz (Jun 26, 2009)

evmetro said:


> While I have a rather unique passion for metros, the main reason here is about how many kWh are used. Metros were and still are the king of mpg in the ICE car world, so it stands to reason that they would be the king of watt hours per mile in the world of EVs. One of the themes that I have been using in this build is the use of lightweight materials, and generally doing what I can to keep this car light. I am also watching the budget on this build, so not a whole lot of stuff that is not needed. The aluminum polishing makes it look pretty, but the polishing supplies are from harbor freight and are dirt cheap. The plastic for that custom fuse holder was $1.50, and the paint that I selected for this build is single stage.




Makes sense considering you were talking of maybe on day starting an ev conversion business .... 

The work you do is immaculate and to make myself clear i wasnt degrading your project in ANY way ... I was just wondering why a metro  ...


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## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

crackerjackz said:


> Makes sense considering you were talking of maybe on day starting an ev conversion business ....
> 
> The work you do is immaculate and to make myself clear i wasnt degrading your project in ANY way ... I was just wondering why a metro  ...


I always appreciate good words on my work, so thanks very much. I also enjoy any pessimistic or negative input, as this helps me to make things better and correct things that are not right. Any "devils advocates", please fire away! I would think that if I am to stand a chance of making it in the professional EV conversion business that I will need all the criticism that I can get.


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## Russco (Dec 23, 2008)

evmetro said:


> I always appreciate good words on my work, so thanks very much. I also enjoy any pessimistic or negative input, as this helps me to make things better and correct things that are not right. Any "devils advocates", please fire away! I would think that if I am to stand a chance of making it in the professional EV conversion business that I will need all the criticism that I can get.


No doubt whatsoever that you can build a superb EV conversion. 

But if, and that's a big IF, you wish to actually make a business of stock gas auto manufactured conversions, you'll have to think outside the Metro window.

I own a Metro EV conversion myself, but not everyone likes a Metro. Some like old air cooled VW's, some like new VW GTI's, come like big honkin' GMC 1 ton pick ups. 

And if you're gonna' succeed, you must convert the make and model of vehicle the customer desires. Let's face it, if you pre-convert a Metro, the customer will want a Triumph, if you paint it white, the customer will want black, if you use purple lithium batteries, the customer will want pink lithium batteries, if you use an AC conversion, the customer will want a DC conversion.

Like good ol' Wayne in Kansas, to be successful as an EV conversion business, you must convert what the customer likes and wants rather than try to sell a conversion that you _think_ people will like.

Otherwise, you fail. It's as simple as that.


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## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

Russco said:


> No doubt whatsoever that you can build a superb EV conversion.
> 
> But if, and that's a big IF, you wish to actually make a business of stock gas auto manufactured conversions, you'll have to think outside the Metro window.
> 
> ...


100 % agree on that. The Cadillac conversion that is under way right now as well is really opening my eyes to this. These Metro conversions certainly give me an edge on the watt hours per mile thing, but not everybody has the same priority. A paying customer should be able to get exactly what he wants, providing that the laws of physics allow for it.


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## favguy (May 2, 2008)

My take on your work, 

Personally, I don't particularly like Metro's, (but then most people in the UK don't like my choice of car, car choice is subjective of course!)

Now, having said that, if I needed someone to build me an EV, (my choice of car to my spec.) and I were to visit your shop and drive your Metro, look over the build quality and attention to detail, there is no doubt you would get the job, your work is simply exceptional and you obviously know what you are doing . Weather or not you can succeed in business, that's a different skill entirely to your engineering ability, but I wish you success and hope you do well, In the very unlikely event I'm ever in your locality, I'd love to come over for a chat...

Paul

PS, I'm still worried about all that beautiful polished alloy oxidising when you start using the car! Maybe I've been living in damp England for too long


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## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

favguy said:


> My take on your work,
> 
> Personally, I don't particularly like Metro's, (but then most people in the UK don't like my choice of car, car choice is subjective of course!)
> 
> ...


Thanks Paul, if you are ever out this way, I hope that you DO stop by! As for the oxidation, I have no doubt that Mother Nature will inevitably reclaim this EV someday, but I will do what I can to keep that aluminum looking good in the meantime...


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## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

The new brake lines are bent and flared now.










I got this tubing at Napa, and it is copper nickel. Super easy to bend, shape, and flare, just in case anybody is getting ready to do their brake lines. This was a 25 foot roll.


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## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

Got this bus bar cut out to link the three batteries on the left to the four batteries on the right. 40 mm wide by 2 mm thick. These are where the radiator used to be.










Also got the bus bar cut out that links the pack to the fuse. The mounting surface of the fuse is maximized so that there is as much contact as possible between the bus bar and the fuse. I am debating on how to do the other side of the fuse. I need to run 2/0 from that vacant stud on the fuse to the controller which resides in the gas tank under the rear seat. The cable needs to go straight down from the fuse and into the tunnel, so I need a 90 degree turn straight down from that fuse stud. I am debating making a 90 degree bus bar and bolting the 2/0 cable lug to it, or reducing the number of connections by crimping and soldering a long enough copper pipe over the 2/0 to make the 90 bend and still act as a cable lug that bolts to the fuse. Thoughts?










I will get some shorter bolts for the fuse. I believe that with this sleeve installed in the fuse block that I can get away with only a top nut, flat washer, and lock washer. I am able to tighten the bolt head and the nut together with plenty of torque, and the flat washers on each side of the plastic holder squeeze against the steel sleeve. I cut that sleeve to the exact length as the plastic thickness, and then buzzed them down with a grinder to make sure that the plastic block gets squeezed just a little and the sleeve takes 95% of the pressure.


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## onegreenev (May 18, 2012)

Thats some serious bling? Nice.


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## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

I got my charging inlets in. This first pic is of the 50 amp inlet. Like any extension cord, the male end of my cord is male and plugs into the wall outlet, so of course the end that plugs into the car is female. Here is what the female end of the extension cord plugs into. I had to recess the box back into the fuel door pocket enough so that the fuel door won't hit the male blades. The male blades are just a DIY 50 amp extension cord end sandwiched into a metal two gang box. When the lid is mounted to the box, it squeezes the cord end between the lid and box. The four bolts go all the way through the lid and the back of the box so that you can be rough n tough with the extension cord.










The 110 charging inlet is basically the same set up. We all know that 110 is not the fastest way to charge an EV, but it is by far the most convenient. With convenience in mind, the charging inlet needs to accept an ordinary extension cord, like the ones that non EV owners have in their homes to power garden tools and drills and such. I have yet to spot any EVSE cords with the big funky box built in coiled up in anybody's garage. Anyway, here is my 110 inlet.










That plastic trim panel that the inlet is centered in does not have enough strength to withstand having an extension cord plugged in repeatedly, so I mounted it to the car and then trimmed the panel to fit the inlet. All the rough and tough action goes to this mounting instead of the plastic panel.










The inlet has threads on the backside, so I picked up that threaded mounting flange for an electric panel at home depot and modified it to match the outer diameter of my charging inlet. Here is the backside of my inlet.










Here is the front of the inlet.


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## poprock (Apr 29, 2010)

That bracket holding the 110v plug to the rear panel--now where have I seen that before?


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## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

poprock1 said:


> That bracket holding the 110v plug to the rear panel--now where have I seen that before?


I bought this conduit hub at home depot, but my inlet did not thread all the way in because of the pipe thread. I then built up the "hub" to match the flange of my inlet so that it looks right. You can see how my black paint ends inside where the threads of the conduit hub begin if you look at that pic of the hub mounted on the car. (the aluminum bracket is just some scrap aluminum out of my scrap bin that I bent into a basic bracket)









It is important for me to make sure that this inlet is ready for rigorous use since I am one of the few people on this site who push the 110 volt inlet. As far as I know, I am the one who pushes this the most, so it needs to be done right.


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## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

OK, I got the 3 phase bus bars built. I just sent my controller off for a software upgrade so that I can integrate the Orion BMS, so the controller in place is just a 6501 from another project. It works great for a build jig for the bus bars though. The HVDC leads to the controller will get traditional 2/0 cable and crimp on lugs. It is important to get all this kind of stuff done first, before I make the tank "pretty". 










I got one of these to isolate the Orion CAN bus from the Curtis CAN bus. You can see in the above photo, it is mounted in the tank as well.










.


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## z_power (Dec 17, 2011)

Excellent! And you're working very fast, busbars idea was first mentioned here 2 days ago... Do you plan to put some small drain holes in the bottom just in case of coolant leak?


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## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

Ok, I got the gas tank all wired, the lid is on, and it is back in the car. Here is a shot just before I sealed it up, so if anybody can spot anything that should be corrected or improved on, let me know. It only takes a few minutes to pull it out and open it up. I just noticed that there is no fuse between the charger and the pack on that white 8 gauge wire... On that note, that white terminal block on the charger did not accept 6 gauge cable- any problem running 8 gauge to the pack and the AC mains bulkhead terminals? 











.


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## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

Here is the aux battery box for this rig. I know that it is debatable if lithium batteries need to be clamped or not, but my batteries are clamped. As far as I know, it certainly won't hurt anything to clamp them, and it sure is nice to have them in a module like this.










The four 30ah lithium cells are pushed into the box, and they are a little snug at the bottom. Then you just bolt the flanges together and it clamps the batteries snugly. This box turns the aux batteries into a single unit, ready to bolt into the car.

Here is a shot with the batteries installed in the battery box:










Here is an end view. The end plates are only welded to the top, and they are floating at the bottom. t is nice to not have any hold downs on the tops of the batteries since these ones are pretty small and there is not much room for the bus bars and cell log leads.










.


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## favguy (May 2, 2008)

I agree that clamping batteries in general is a good idea, after all plastic cases can give over time and temperature changes, you don't want the cell anode/cathode sheets loosening off, assuring they are nice and tight can only be a good thing.

What thickness are your end plates there, about 4mm?


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## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

The end plates are made out of 1/8" plate, and I think that translates to a little over 3 mm. The side area is pretty small on these 30ah cells, so I figured I would keep to my lightweight theme. The whole thing with the box and the 4 batteries weighs in right at 12 lbs. (5.44 kg)


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## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

I made this jig for my 100 ah batteries in a different build, but it still worked for these little 30 ah batteries. I had one of the bus bars that a messed up on when I was making the 3 big ones in the gas tank project, so I chopped it up and carved these out. They will carry more current than they will ever see, but at least the other bus bar that I messed up has gone to good use.










I just love stuff that is handcrafted in the USA. 










.


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## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

It is kinda nice to finally have this ride off of the jack stands that it has been sitting on during all of the fab stage. I have some things to do on the bottom side, so she is going on the lift for awhile. Almost time for making her pretty! It looks a little strange to see it all fresh up front, and then all old in the back...


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## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

Here are the 15 batteries in the spare tire well. 21 under the hood, 15 in the back.










I ended up pulling almost all of the interior so that I could get the carpet out. I needed to do some welding on the bottom of the floor, and didn't want to catch the carpet on fire.










These aluminum pipes made running the 2/0 cables pretty easy. The 3 phase pipe is longer to get the cables closer to the motor, and the smaller pipe contains the positive DC cable that stops at the "gas tank", and the negative DC cable that runs all the way to the rear pack. I was able to get quite a few twists into the DC cables inside the pipe. It is a 7 foot run from the motor to the controller in the gas tank, so with that kind of distance it helps having a super straight shot like this.










When I stripped the 2/0 cable to crimp the terminals on, I saved the casings that I cut off and put them on the cables where they go into the pipes, and I will fill the ends with some urethane to ensure that there is no chafing.










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## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

Here is the throttle set up. 










The motor bay needed a touch of the polished aluminum on that side to balance it out since the smaller aft battery box sits off to the passenger side like that, so the throttle bracket worked great. I am not a feng shui expert, but I remember my math teacher saying something about what you do to one side, you have to do to the other...










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## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

Here is a better pic... I am not exactly a photographer, so it looked like two of those PB 6 pot boxes in that first pic.


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## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

Here is the rear coil spring set up with the additional inner springs. These extra inner springs will make the spring rate correct for the 240 pound of batteries and electronics in the hatchback area.










Here is some detail on the spring cups. The springs come in a box that includes the spring cups, but they were meant to be attached to shocks with some funky brackets. These ones are just welded to the upper factory coil perch, and to the lower control arm.


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## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

Rear brakes and suspension all set to go. lotsa new stuff, and lotsa work.










The drum is from a later model that came with bigger wheel studs. I had a machine shop convert the front hubs from 10mm studs to 12 mm studs, but the rear upgrade is as simple as swapping the drum with the later model. My other conversions all had these studs since they are later models, so now I can buy the same type wheels.


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## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

I found this cooler hanging off of a pick up over at Pick n Pull, and thought it might be nice for cooling the components that are in the "gas tank", and it seems to fit nicely where the muffler used to be. 










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## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

Here are the beginnings of the shifter mounted variable regen control. This is an automatic shifter that I found over at Pick n Pull that was in a Buick Lasaber. The button was intended for the driver to push to shift out of park, but it is now the top of my manual 5 speed shifter. I will also run selector switches for off throttle, regen off, and dash mounted potentiometer knob that is triggered by the brake pedal switch.










Here is what happens when you push the button. 










Here is the back view.










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## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

Time to dig into the bodywork. This car had 21 years of hard life on it before I rescued it. The whole thing is covered with dings, dents, scratches, multiple paint jobs, etc.

I started with the passenger side door and quarter panel.










Lots of sheet metal straightening










Bondo is your friend










One thing cool about having a large repair on adjacent panels is that you can mill them down with the sanding block as if they were all one big panel. It makes the gap between the door and the quarter panel unrealistically perfect. There was never a new metro made that had gaps anywhere near perfect. Here is a lengthwise view of the gap. You can lay a stainless ruler across the gap anywhere, and it sits super flat across the two panels.










There is still some final tuning to be done, and it is still in 80 grit sandpaper finish, but here is where I left off for now.




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## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

Almost ready for primer. I found a few more tiny blemishes that I need to fix, and the I can primer the chassis. I pulled these wheels off of the '95 lithium upgrade build, and got some new wheels for that one. (2nd conversion in my signature). I never liked the gunmetal gray of these wheels with the light blue of that EV, but I think it will go better with the white that I am putting on this EV.


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## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

I sprayed some thick coats of primer on the chassis yesterday.










I have been blocking down the primer today. This is 32o grit sandpaper here, but I will have to go over it again with 600 before I can paint it. So far, it is blocking out really nicely, and it looks like I did not miss any dings or chips before the primer went on. I have a whole career as a body guy behind me, but I still find little surprises when I block out the primer. So far, no surprises here...










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## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

Here is the chassis all perfect and painted. 



























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## onegreenev (May 18, 2012)

Can't wait until the wrappers come off. Looks great.


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## Moltenmetal (Mar 20, 2014)

Your craftsmanship is amazing- wish you were a few thousand miles closer so I could get some help with the bodywork on my Spitfire!

One thing to watch out for- the 6061T6 aluminum you're using is strong and stiff as heck, but welding it weakens it by about half- and it does have a tendency to crack at welds too. You're after low weight but you need fairly heavy sections to retain strength. But if you choose your weld locations right, of can get away without welding it, it's a great material.


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## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

Moltenmetal said:


> ... wish you were a few thousand miles closer so I could get some help with the bodywork on my Spitfire!
> /QUOTE]
> 
> That would be pretty cool. My shop shares a parking lot with a British car specialist. There are always A bunch of classic triumphs parked right outside my shop. He has offered me a few donor chassis for conversion, but I am always buried in other projects. Those really do look like great vehicles to convert.


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## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

The rest of the panels have taken quite a bit of work to restore. Both doors had the seat belts slammed on them a thousand times


















There were holes and cracks to weld up where the window channels bolt into the inner structure, and here is a picture of where the mirrors have been ripped of the car time after time.










All has been repaired, here they are in primer










The hood was a mess


















But it is all repaired and primered.


















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## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

Finally got some paint down on the doors, hatch, fenders, hood, and fuel door.




























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## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

Sprayed the insides of all the panels today




























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## onegreenev (May 18, 2012)

Looking awesome.


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## Vhclbldr (Feb 8, 2014)

That car will look like new. Better, even!
You are a fine craftsman!
I wish I were brave/good enough to spray my own paint. Just got a compressor system & installed an air line with dryer, but not sure about using the gun with the skill I need for the quality it deserves. Perhaps I will practice on the bed of the El Camino....


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## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

Got the passenger door and the hatch on today. 










It is pretty slow going because there are a lot of details going on that would 
be a little boring to post on this thread. Getting the internal parts working and cleaned up, and a little polishing. I like to sand the fresh paint with fine sandpaper, and then polish it...










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## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

Finally got the last round of stuff painted. The bumpers were really trashed like the rest of this rig was, and they are two part bumpers with the upper and lower pieces.

Front bumper, lower half. Yea, that's my hood in there again... there were a few things that did not meet my standards, but now all is well.










These are the upper bumper pieces.










I made a fiberglass grill block for this rig. Yes, those are GBS battery lugs that I used for anchor points to attache this grill block to my front bumper...










The grill block goes on like this.










Here is a close up of the GBS battery terminals and how I can wire or zip tie the grill block to the bumper from the inside










Here is the grill block painted










rear bumper, lower half









closer shot, rear bumper










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## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

Metros make great donor chassis for EV conversions. Ever wonder what happens when all those old Metros out there die and go to Heaven? Maybe they go to Metro Heaven?


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## onegreenev (May 18, 2012)

More nice looking stuff coming from your garage. Me like. 

Just fit all my cells into the bug. This is going to be tough setting up the connections like I want. Need to do this so they all connect without any long connections except from the front to the rear. I have an initial layout that should work. Might need to rethink the tops of the boxes.


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## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

Thanks GreenEV. I don't know why people trash cars out the way they do. In order for me to paint these raw black lower bumpers, I had to prime the bumpers before the body filler, since the body filler won't stick to plastic, then add my body filler, then prime the bumpers again to " sandwich the filler between layers of primer.

Here is what I had to deal with










First layer of primer










Then body filler










Then second layer of primer











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## onegreenev (May 18, 2012)

Amazing results from the crap you had to work with. Just amazing. Love it.


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## onegreenev (May 18, 2012)

People don't take care of stuff well because they have no respect and just expect to toss it out anyway and buy another one. Our society has totally become a throwaway society and that is the result. Toss it out because you want the next best thing and then just toss out a perfectly good running but trashed vehicle or item. Like phones. Im guilty of this too. I am changing phones again but the one I have is still OK. Showing problems but since they are not built to be rebuilt it is just thrown away. I'd rather it be fixed but alas it won't be and will just be recycled. The ultimate obsolescence. Obsolete before you even buy it.


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## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

There is a lot of merit to the wisdom of selecting a donor vehicle that is in nice shape. I generally don't really care about the condition of a donor chassis since I re engineer and restore everything anyway, but I will probably look a little more closely next time. I am quite capable of making an old turd into something nice, but for a couple dollars more I could have shaved a lot of time off of this build. As much as I like to save a car from the crusher, there are other cars that are ready for the crusher that are in better condition.


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## crackerjackz (Jun 26, 2009)

I hate you evmetro ... Everytime i use or see my ev im glad of the work i do ... Until the next time i see your builds lol ....

Youre an artist seriously lol ... Damn nice clean jobs you do ...


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## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

Thanks. I really enjoy reading your builds as well.


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## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

Doors and fenders are hung, I cleaned up the head light mount brackets, head lights, horn, hood latch, and the vertical brace for the hood latch, and then mounted all that stuff. It's slowly turning into a car again.










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## dtbaker (Jan 5, 2008)

I am just in awe of this kind of love given to a lowly Metro....


over the years, I have felt a growing admiration of the practicality of the Swift/Metro, I I feel like we really need to get one into Jay Leno's garage as the most practical car EVER.... perhaps one of these Metros!


I do think that a hood scoop, like the one I have, adds something.


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## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

dtbaker said:


> over the years, I have felt a growing admiration of the practicality of the Swift/Metro, I I feel like we really need to get one into Jay Leno's garage as the most practical car EVER.... perhaps one of these Metros!



Thanks DTbaker, I hope Jay Leno catches wind that there is a car more efficient than anything that he has in his collection!

Got a little more done today. The hood took hours to sand and polish just right, but it is on there now.










I would imagine that if Mr Leno is into perfect finishes, the paint n polish on this thing would grab his attention...










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## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

Here is a shot with the bumper on. It is probably hard to tell what the heck the grill block will look like on a stand, but it probably makes a little more sense seeing it on the car. This should help a little on the aerodynamics and keeping the rain out.










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## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

I really wanted to get the smoked license plate bubble lenses, but I am already a hair over the line with the window tint, so I don't want to push my luck too much. I went with a clear bubble cover to play it a little safer with the law.










Naturally, This rig needs LED lighting, and this time around I have enough experience to know exactly what brands to buy for where. These Phillips 1157 units are a little pricey, but they are fantastic for the brake/running light. I don't want to spend this kinda money on all of the lights, but this one gets used the most, and counts the most. I have these in the 95 conversion and absolutely love them.










I got the cheap cob style for the blinkers. I have several cars running these, and have not had any problems yet. I understood that I would see these fail pretty regularly, but so far so good.










Good Phillips LEDs for the reverse lamps.


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## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

I picked out a satin black for the black out areas. It is nice to get them done while the glass is out.


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## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

I am excited to finally get my windows back from my tint guy. I managed to pack them all into one of my metros. I got six windows back from my tint guy. I dropped off 5, but bought a new windshield, so six came home. 










I like to put the biggest windows in first.










The original rubber moldings were too dry and cracked to save, so I got some universal rubber windshield molding sold by the foot from my local glass supplier.


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## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

Things are coming along. The glass takes awhile since all the moldings were really trashed, cracked, and dry. I was able to restore some of it, and I had to replace a lot of it.

The folding mirrors were an option on the GT Suzuki Swifts that share the same body style as this Metro, and have been painted body color as well as the door handles. 










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## timk225 (Sep 19, 2014)

Holy damn, that's some nice work! I'd be afraid to drive it and get it dirty!

Or take the risk of some jackass turning left in front of me and tweaking the front end and all that custom work just a little bit off.

What is the weight of the car with all the batteries and everything in it? I remember it being listed at 1600 lbs in the first post of this topic when it was a stock gas engine car.

I am also interested to see some performance numbers. How fast can it go, what is the 0-60, and how far on a charge.

I am guessing you'll have to shift gears to keep from slipping that clutch. Even though you used the bigger clutch, the electric motor surely will out-torque any engine a Metro ever had!

If someone came to you and wanted you to build them another Metro like this, what would it cost, for the car itself and labor and all parts included?


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## Frank (Dec 6, 2008)

As usual, excellent workmanship.


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## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

timk225 said:


> What is the weight of the car with all the batteries and everything in it? I remember it being listed at 1600 lbs in the first post of this topic when it was a stock gas engine car.
> 
> I am also interested to see some performance numbers. How fast can it go, what is the 0-60, and how far on a charge.


I am anxious to finish this thing up and weigh it. I am pretty sure that it will be way under 2000 lbs, but I will know soon.

I previously ran this motor and controller in a later model Metro that weighs more, and I was able to squeeze 100 miles range out of 34 200AH batteries with a top speed of 100mph. I am really looking forward to seeing how this thing will do. I have made a few sacrifices in order to maintain a lighter weight for this ride, so hopefully the lighter weight will be apparent when I drive it...



> I am guessing you'll have to shift gears to keep from slipping that clutch. Even though you used the bigger clutch, the electric motor surely will out-torque any engine a Metro ever had!


The EV that I drive daily has the same clutch, flywheel, and controller, as well as an AC74 motor. No problems with slippage. The factory 3 cylinder clutch had major problems, and I was able to roast it in any gear. This bigger clutch is the ticket.

Thanks to you and Frank for checking out this build! I always enjoy feedback, good or bad.


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## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

This is the filler panel that fits between the tail lights. I cut the hole in the middle to fit around my 110 charging receptacle.










You can see the charging receptacle here. The square thing below is a second heat exchanger for my cooling system. it fits neatly behind the bumper. Those little wires by the receptacle are just my license plate light wires. I have 12 gauge wiring for the 110v that goes straight back, so you can't see them here.










Here it is in place.










Here is a close up. I did not want to mount the receptacle to this panel because I did not want to put any stress on it. Having it anchor to the chassis like this make it very strong. If you kicked it as hard as you can, you would only hurt your foot.











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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

Looking damn good!
I wish I could make things that looked as good as that!


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## Vhclbldr (Feb 8, 2014)

You are setting the standard for quality conversions. Expect about a gajillion messages when I start getting my Electric Camino project moving forward.


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## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

Vhclbldr said:


> You are setting the standard for quality conversions. Expect about a gajillion messages when I start getting my Electric Camino project moving forward.


Thanks. Feel free to message me anytime.

Ok, so the tail lights have been polished and restored. The LED lights are in there, and they are mounted up. here is a pic..










The shifter is set up and adjusted now, ready to go in. The button on top of the shifter is for on demand variable regen. Here it is at rest.










Here it is fully depressed.










Here is a close up of the linkage, and the cage around the linkage is so I can put the rubber shift boot over all this and not have the linkage bind on the boot.










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## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

Ok,now for the 220 plug. J plug stations are not too common yet, but I have a big breaker here at the shop for the tig welder. Plenty for the EMW 12k charger. One of the odd things that I have found, is that Home Depot and Lowes carry female 50 amp receptacles, but nobody seems to sell male ones. Obviously if the receptacle on the wall by my welder is female, then if I plug an extension cord into it, I will be needing to plug the female end of the extension cord into a male receptacle on the car. I still have not located such a male 220 50 amp male receptacle, so I got one of these:










That plug gets squished into this box. The back side of the box is shimmed on the inside of the back wall to ensure that the plug is squished pretty tight by the lid since this charging receptacle needs to be really heavy duty and able to withstand any abuse. 










This is where the metal box mounts on the car. Since the lid needs to withstand being unplugged, there are four bolts that go through the lid, through the box, and into the car. Pretty rugged.


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## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

Here it is mounted.










I cut the hole on the lid about an eighth of an inch bigger than the extension cord, and the hold everything where it goes while the extension cord is plugged in as I tighten up the bolts so that there is a nice even gap all the way around the extension cord.


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## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

This does great for my 110 volt charging on the back panel, and I think the lack of one of these on manufactured EVs is slowing sales. It is the slowest way to charge an EV, but you can charge EVERYWHERE in the USA with it.


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## Moltenmetal (Mar 20, 2014)

I like it- all of it!

Marinco? Is that male plug meant for a boat? Will have to check out boat supply shops because I need one!

Like your use of the stove cord too.

What kind of pot is your shifter button using? Is your linkage just moving a cable which moves a pot lever in the engine compartment somewhere?

Plastic polish...will need to use that on my lenses. They need to be disassembled and cleaned and polished for sure. Yours look amazing! What product did you use for polishing them- the same stuff you use to polish your finish? A brand and description for us totally green body workers would be greatly appreciated!


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## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

I think I got those 110 male receptacles at a marine store. We have a couple "West Marine" boating stores in town, and they are really neat to look in if you are into building EVs. They carry the Blue Sea power posts and accessories, as well as a lot of other neat stuff. I am not into boats, but I can spend a half hour in their electrical aisle.

The plastic polish is just the 3m #1 white polish compound that I use on the paint. The part that is not so fun is holding the light with one hand, and the buffer in the other. I usually just sit down on the floor with the light in my lap where I can squeeze it a little with my knees to help hold it.

That potentiometer is one that I pulled out of a chinese ebay pb6 pot box. Here is a back side view










and here is a backside view with the button all the way down. It is a two stage geometry, so the first two thirds of the travel is not as sensitive as the last third. The button on top of the shifter is set up to go flush with the top of the shifter at about two thirds of the travel, and then down inside for the last bit of travel. The idea here is that it will be really easy to control the first two thirds of the regen range with the palm of your hand or your thumb, but the last third is intentionally a little harder to access. I am anticipating that most of my braking will be done with the first two thirds of travel, and then the last third will be kinda like the secondaries on a four barrel carb, kind of a reserve.










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## Moltenmetal (Mar 20, 2014)

Thanks for posting the pics- much clearer now. Finding 5k linear pots isn't a problem, but finding ones that are up to the wear and tear that throttle or regen brake service would put on them for the long term is another. The source you used makes sense.


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## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

Here is some detail of the hatch area before I upholster the aluminum panels.










These are the configuration switches. 
*DC DC on and of with key / off / always on
*Bluetooth and wifi on and off with key / off / always on
*Controller on and off via BMS / off / override BMS with key
*Charger on and off via BMS / off / override BMS charge enable by simply plugging it in
*AC main contactors on and off via BMS / off / override BMS safety signal by plugging in
*Water pump on and off with key / off / manual override anytime
*Brakelight with regen / no brake light with regen
*secret!










EMW charger control board










Glovebox / toolbox / extra compartment 










Here it is with all the doors closed. All that will be visible is the upholstery back here. Ready to load groceries, bags of cement, whatever.










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## onegreenev (May 18, 2012)

Loving it. I particularly like the magnetic closures.


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## Vhclbldr (Feb 8, 2014)

Quality metal forming! I am curious about the "secret" switch!
Are you worried about dust/dirt/debris/detritus collecting in the bottom of the Charger Control Board compartment?
I haven't got any suggestions on how to make it better sealed against cement dust, unfortunately.
Perhaps a foam/rubber gasket?
Nice trick with the magnetic latches and finger holes (but won't those allow the dust/etc in?).


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## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

Vhclbldr said:


> Quality metal forming! I am curious about the "secret" switch!
> Are you worried about dust/dirt/debris/detritus collecting in the bottom of the Charger Control Board compartment?
> I haven't got any suggestions on how to make it better sealed against cement dust, unfortunately.
> Perhaps a foam/rubber gasket?
> Nice trick with the magnetic latches and finger holes (but won't those allow the dust/etc in?).


That secret switch is the perpetual motion switch. The car runs forever without needing recharging when you flip that switch. I would tell you more, but THEY are already watching me

Good call on the potential debris falling into the finger holes. The charger control board compartment has most of the bottom open, so debris would just fall onto the floor of the hatch area below, and where the switches are it would fall into the logic and control box. I could probably pull the lid panels once per year and dust everything with an air blower, but I might check around and see if I can find some nice flush folding pulls to put where the finger holes are.


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## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

I am running a tablet for my instrument cluster like I did on my first conversion, so that I can have everything on one screen. The site glass data will show up with all the other data. This takes a little bit of time to build but here we go.

Here is what I am starting with. I cut out a piece of aluminum, and put three bends into it. The bottom of the tablet will fit into a slot at the bottom, and the top will snap into place up top.










I made a bus bar jig awhile back, and I am using it to make the tablet retention spring. This bus bar is not the usual copper that my jig usually sees...










Here is the bus bar in place. I trimmed the front of the bus bar short, and buzzed the edges with my grinder. The overlapping strip gives me the correct spring action for when the top of the tablet slides on it.










Next will be the fun part. I need a back filler to put my idiot lights into, and a pocket for a 12 volt cigarette lighter and charging cord for the tablet...


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## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

I worked on the tablet dock a little today. I put the cross piece in so that I can just drop this dock in and use the factory screws.










I built the back out a little so that it sets flat in the opening. This gives it a lot of support, enough so that the two screws on the sides are plenty to make it very solid..










I used a little piece of piano hinge to attach the tablet eject lever. 










When the tablet is in, it holds the eject lever flat. I will attach some kind of button where that piece of masking tape is, since this is where I want to push to eject the tablet. I want something that looks like a trip meter reset or something along those lines that will protrude through the pretty face that will go on here.


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## Vhclbldr (Feb 8, 2014)

Quality work (as always)! And a neat replacement if the traditional speedo cluster!

I have been looking at making a main console from a 7" tablet to monitor the electrical systems and whatnot. I found a cheap one that also has a USB port, wifi and Bluetooth, as well as FM Radio tuner (seriously?) running Android KitKat.
My questions for you are: 1) what sort of interface (Arduino? RaspberryPi?) do you have of intend to use between it and the pack/system, and 2) what display options does it allow?

I want to be able to show pack voltage, motor amps (both), motor temp, range-to-empty, etc.
I would like to hook up a backup camera to it as well as use it for the stereo system, and possibly as a hands-free phone interface. Just not sure I can hack it...

Am I expecting too much?


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## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

You are not expecting too much at all. The Orion BMS is plug n play for all the instrumentation you will ever need. Just wire your batteries to it, plug in a Bluetooth or wifi dongle to one or both of the two CANBUS leads, and download torque pro to your tablet. You can see this in action on the first conversion in my signature below. I threw the speedo cluster in the trash and did this same tablet dock on that one too. This time around, I have the 1238 linked via CANBUS to the orion, so I will be able to display on the tablet the rpm, motor temp, controller temp, and such from the controller, and battery amps, pack voltage, any or all individual battery voltage, 12 volt aux volts, highest and lowest battery volts, highest and lowest resistance, soc, dod, pack health, and a bunch more. The torque app also has elevation, speedometer, odometer, trip meter, time, and a bunch more stuff. Skype and FaceTime via a tablet mounted this way are hands free, so you can video chat through your steering wheel, and if you are stuck in a traffic jamb, you can tune in to your local tv station for a traffic report. I have I heart radio set up too, but I just listen to the pioneer deck since it is easier.


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## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

The tablet dock fabrication on the first conversion in my signature below starts at post 260 in that thread.










Here is one of the dash screens that I run on that conversion.










This screen is pretty handy as well. When you touch that screen shot icon, you get that instant screen shot in your photo gallery.










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## Vhclbldr (Feb 8, 2014)

That was what I suspected (I read through most of your build thread one night and must have forgotten the details). I am planning on keeping the main instrumentation of the Electric Camino generally stock (speedo & Tach), but definitely will replace the radio unit with a 7" tablet (they are currently running only $50 from best buy).
I have been debating whether to run a BMS or not, and may do it after bottom balancing the cells after all. More information for battery management is better, I suppose.


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## 67BGTEV (Nov 1, 2013)

evmetro said:


> I worked on the tablet dock a little today. I put the cross piece in so that I can just drop this dock in and use the factory screws.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


You have an awesome workmanship. Instead of Aluminum, isn't Polyurethane or polymer equivalent better in terms of weight?


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## 67BGTEV (Nov 1, 2013)

Could you please confirm my understanding of your solution?


 Controller is connected to Orion BMS and you DO NOT have any other ECU. Is this correct?
 Two wires from each cell is connected to Orion BMS
 12V (+ and - ) are connected to BMS
 BMS has built-in Bluetooth module which serve the info 
 Make a connection from the Tablet/Phone BT to BMS; Install Torque app and voila, all the information is displayed. 











evmetro said:


> The tablet dock fabrication on the first conversion in my signature below starts at post 260 in that thread.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

67, that is pretty close. There is only 1 wire per battery on each positive post, since the positive terminal on each preceding battery is the negative on the next one in series. There are also a few grounds in there on #1, 13, 25 etc,every 12 batteries. There are also two 12 volt inputs, capable of running on two separate sources. I run a 12 volt aux battery of of a DC DC converter that goes to one of the 12 volt inputs, and then a 12 volt power supply that is wired into the AC mains so that the orion knows when the charge cord is plugged in. The 12 volt power supply is just a world wide travel netbook power supply, 5000ma. I use the world wide ones because they do not care if I plug in 110 or 220. The 12 volt power supplies that I use power the Bluetooth and wifi, the charge enable relay, the water pump and fans, and the charge safety relay (this allows the orion to disconnect the AC mains). Since the orion knows if the car is plugged in, it has a setting to stop the controller enable signal if you try to drive it with the charge cord still plugged in. This whole dual 12 volt power source thing may sound a little complicated, but it is very simple and allows you extreme flexibility in how you engineer your car.

I do not have any other ECU in the car. The ICE ECU got thrown out with the rest of the ICE junk, and the orion is the EV ECU. I took the original OBD2 port and wired it directly to one of the two separate CANBUS leads, and I plug an ELM 27 into it which converts the CANBUS data to OBD2 and bluetooths the data to the tablet. (The elm27 costs less than thirty bucks on ebay.)

The connection from the orion to the Curtis is just a CANBUS connection, but I run an optical isolator in that line since the power supplies for the Curtis and the orion need to be isolated from each other.


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## 67BGTEV (Nov 1, 2013)

Great solution on using 220v to 12v for letting bms know that mains are connected and to power up the wifi n BT. 
I'm using the same technique for running the dc fan for 110v home ceramic heater for heating my car. I'm exploring using the shunt for dashboard display. Yours is a better solution. I'll decide soon.


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## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

I actually use two of these netbook 12VDC power supplies, one for each of my charging inlets. You can see one of the power supplies laying there under the little shelf that has the two big contactors, that rectangular black box. Only one of them will provide my charging mode 12 volt juice, it just depends on which charging inlet is being used.










In this pic, you can see that the two big ass contactors on the little shelf are wired up. Since both of my 110 and 220 volt charging inlets are male, I isolated them from each other with those two big contactors and a few of those little black relays. If you screw up and plug in 220 to one inlet, and 110 to the other inlet, the 220 dominates and the 110 contactor won't allow your mistake to happen. What is cool with the Orion is that it controls these AC main contactors, so when you plug in you will never be plugging into a loaded circuit. The Orion sees when the car is plugged in and goes through all of the checks that you want it to do, then when it is all happy, it turns on these AC mains and activates the charge enable at the appropriate times. 

You can see the ELM27 plugged into the OBD2 port that I wired in, and that other transmitter next to it is the wifi transmitter. I like to be able to use an Ipad or an Android tablet, so I broadcast Bluetooth to the Android tablet, while simultaneously broadcasting wifi for the Ipad. That wifi one that says OBDlink on it is plugged into a nine pin connector instead of another OBD2 port, and this is so I can download profiles from my lap top into the Orion, graph any of the data streams, or look at even more information. The nine pin is essential for interfacing with a laptop.










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## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

67, it may also be worth noting that the CANBUS connection between the Orion and the Curtis does more than just allow me to display the data from the Curtis on my tablet. It also allows the Curtis to see the condition of the pack and each battery so it can derate the throttle or regen to keep a cell or pack voltage within the range that I specify. With this kind of technology, all you really NEED to display is your speedometer and state of charge. It also makes the top balance vs bottom balance debate kind of obsolete in my opinion.


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## 67BGTEV (Nov 1, 2013)

Wow, nice thanks for the insight. I'm sold on it. I'll share more details about my plan, may be in a separate thread.


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## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

I began to dislike the tablet dock less and less. Here is the beginning of tablet dock #2


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## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

The dash had a little chunks out of it and some cracks, so I opened them up with my cut off wheel.










I filled the damaged spots with two part flexible plastic repair compound.










Here it is painted with interior dash paint.










.


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## onegreenev (May 18, 2012)

Isn't there a company that makes dash repairs that include a piece to press on to create that original dash look with grooves and such? That job looks great but with a piece to press into the soft plastic before setting up to look like the original would be even better. 

I sent my Bug to my Son's Auto Shop. OnPoint Motor Works. He will be finishing up the controller and wiring for the Roadster. This will give him hands on to the EV stuff. I also want him to remove the motor and adaptor plate and take the adaptor apart so he can move the motor around enough to hide all the connection points. That way the motor compartment will be super clean with the controller and motor with a few wires to the motor and battery compartment through the firewall. So a clean look.


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## esoneson (Sep 1, 2008)

evmetro said:


> The dash had a little chunks out of it and some cracks, so I opened them up with my cut off wheel.
> 
> I filled the damaged spots with two part flexible plastic repair compound.
> 
> ...


Your talents seem endless. Great work and attention to details. You are an inspiration for me to do better.

Eric


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## onegreenev (May 18, 2012)

esoneson said:


> Your talents seem endless. Great work and attention to details. You are an inspiration for me to do better.
> 
> Eric


An inspiration to us all.


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## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

Thanks fellas. I looked at the dash repair kits with the little textured fabric pieces, but non of them matched my texture. That 2 part plastic repair kit that I used is just like jb weld, same black an white part a and b. I just filled them and scraped off the excess with a razor blade and sanded them a little after they were dry to help blend them into the texture. Obviously there is no texture on my repairs, but it seems quite presentable. Here is a close up after paint:










I went ahead and did the whole plastic dash shell so that the front pad that I repaired would be a perfect match. It needed it anyway, since it has seen 22 years of sun.










.

.


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## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

Here is some progress on the tablet dock. This shot shows the aluminum dock, the bezel is not in yet.










Here it is with the bezel in place.










All you do to remove the tablet is push the bottom of the tablet, and it pivots off of a hinge that goes right through the middle. You can see that there is a little cut out so that you can reach the top of the tablet with your fingers and pull it out. When you close it, a magnet holds the tablet door in the driving position.


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## PStechPaul (May 1, 2012)

Watch out for that guy trying to break into your car out there!


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## Vhclbldr (Feb 8, 2014)

I saw that in the photo, too.

Couldn't tell if he was breaking in or trying to sell the passenger something...


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## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

That guy is just talking to the driver of that car. He was walking by my shop at the same time the car was driving by, and they both stopped to BS in front of my shop. You're supposed to be checking out that slick tablet install... I suppose it will get a little more interest after I make it all pretty. It is still in the rough right now.


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## tylerwatts (Feb 9, 2012)

The table install looks great dude! I couldn't figure out what these jokers were on about a guy robbing you... Took me a while. I'm obviously focused on the impressive beauty of engineering in your build. Looking very impressive. Is the tablet connected wirelessly or does it dock to draw power from the car?


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## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

tylerwatts said:


> The table install looks great dude! I couldn't figure out what these jokers were on about a guy robbing you... Took me a while. I'm obviously focused on the impressive beauty of engineering in your build. Looking very impressive. Is the tablet connected wirelessly or does it dock to draw power from the car?


The app that I use for my instrumentation (Torque Pro) has a key mode that makes the tablet wake up when the ignition key is turned on, and then puts it to sleep as soon as you turn the key off. It really makes the tablet feel integrated with the car that way. All the data is wifi or bluetooth, but I do put a 12 volt cigarette lighter plug behind the tablet dock that comes on and goes off with the key switch so that the charge cord can keep the tablet charged up, but also to tell the tablet that it is time to wake up or go to sleep.

That cigarette lighter plug turns on and off with the key, but I have a selector switch for the bluetooth and wifi that allows me to leave them on and transmitting when the key is off so that I can check the status of my charge from inside my house while the car is charging in my garage. I can see whatever I want with my Ipad, Android tablet, cell phone, or my smart watch while the tablet dock power is off. The selector switch that I wired in allows me to switch the wifi and bluetooth signals on and off with the key, or leave them on all the time, or turn them off completely.


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## tylerwatts (Feb 9, 2012)

Sounds like a fantastic setup!


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## z_power (Dec 17, 2011)

I'm a noob on smartphones and tablets (still use cellphone with keypad ) so please pardon my question; where is a socket for charge plug and does it need separate plugging or did you implement some kind of docking connector in your cradle?

Can't wait to see finished dashboard and whole car...


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## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

I don't have the cigarette lighter built into this dock yet, but here is what I did for the dock on the first conversion build thread below in my signature. You can see that on that dock there is a pocket where the plug is to allow the cord to be bunched up out of site behind the tablet.


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## z_power (Dec 17, 2011)

Thanks!

I still can't image cable routing from "down under" to any of tablet's edges but I'll simply wait for picture of finished dash.


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## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

I know it has been awhile since I have updated this build thread, so here is what is going on. The EMW charger that was mounted in the gas tank needed some wiring changes to make it work right. I had the charger connected to the pack inside the gas tank, but it turns out that I need to be able to disconnect it from the pack during its initial set up. The other problem was the connection block that came with my pre built EMW12000 was only able to accept 8 gauge wiring. I have now bypassed that wiring block and have 4 gauge run between the charger and the pack. I also had to fix the cooling fans on the charger, since they were set up to run the moment that the charge cord was plugged in. This would mean that if I plugged the car in, the fans would run during the charge, and then for the rest of the week end if I left it plugged in while I went somewhere for a week end road trip. Anyway, I bypassed the EMW power supply for the fans, and wired them into my own on board AC DC power supply so that they only come on when the charger is actually charging. When the charger turns on, the coolant pump and fans come on, and when the Orion decides that it is time for the charger to stop charging, it shuts off the fans and pump. When I drive the car, the pump comes on, but the fans do not.

I did run the motor up the other day with my ignition key switch , and everything went as planned, but I opted to not take it for a test drive until the charger is properly set up. Hopefully, I will take it for a spin on Monday.

If anybody out there is considering an EMW charger for a conversion, be aware that this unit, even if you buy a prebuilt and tested unit like I did, is not really set up for the average end user to just bolt in and wire up. From what I can tell so far, it is a kick ass charger, but I had to stop everything and learn a bunch of stuff to be able to make it work. What is needed for an end user to buy and enjoy this charger is an interpretation essay that spells everything out in laymans terms. It will certainly need an experienced EV tech to install and set up, since there is a lot more to it than just connecting it to the pack, the wall, and your BMS charge enable signal. Most important: You need to know everything about configuring it to your pack prior to wiring it up as per the wiring diagram or planning on where to mount it.


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## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

Here is what is going on with my tablet dock instrument cluster. This pic shows the front view, and the two big circles on the lower right are my high beam and parking brake idiot lights. My turn signal indicators are the two tiny holes on the upper left and upper right.










Here is a view of the back side. The two big metal circles welded in just above the piano hinge are what the turn signal indicators mount into. I needed some extra depth so that the LEDs did not protrude through the front, and these two metal circles give me the extra depth. On the lower left, you can see the aluminum boxes that house the oem plastic lenses for the high beam and parking brake. The bulb holders that are being used came off of a junker and were previously used as license plate bulb holders (921). I found some 921 LED bulbs that only have a single LED so they won't be too bright. Upper left in the pic is the magnetic retention system that holds the tablet flat. All you have to do to remove the tablet is push anywhere on the bottom of it, and it pivots on that piano hinge after you over ride the magnet. Super smooth and easy to remove the tablet.










This is a plexiglass cover that goes over everything. The idiot lights shine through the plexiglass, and when they are not indicating anything the whole thing will just be black with a tablet in the middle. Note: the plexiglass is not really blue. This is a film that protects the clear plexiglass from being scratched while it is being worked on. When all of the fab work is done, I will peel off the blue protective film for final assembly.










.


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## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

EV grin.


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## Moltenmetal (Mar 20, 2014)

Congrats! You've done a lot of high quality and innovative work on that thing!


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## dtbaker (Jan 5, 2008)

too bad it's not more obvious from the outside what's so special about the inside.  No stripes, no badges, windshield stickers.... nuthin?! flaunt that baby in public man!


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## onegreenev (May 18, 2012)

Woo Hoo, Nice going. Im glad I was there to see what really is inside this beastie. Flaunt it.


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## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

dtbaker said:


> too bad it's not more obvious from the outside what's so special about the inside.  No stripes, no badges, windshield stickers.... nuthin?! flaunt that baby in public man!


Lol... It is kind of fun when you pop the hood up for a stranger. It is usually too much for a stranger to process.

I am looking forward to doing some testing on it to see if my use of lightweight materials and no frills theme actually gets my a really low wh per mile spec. We will see...


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## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

I have a super sensitive accelerator on this build, and I am not sure yet why it is like this. I had this pot box, controller, and motor in another car before this one, and it was as smooth as an electric wheelchair. The only thing I did was send the controller out to have it updated for my CANbus connection to the Orion. I have not set up the controller through the site glass yet, so I will probably be able to get it set right once I go through all that. I was pretty anxious for the EV grin, so I just took off without even hooking up the site glass gauge. It ran, so I drove it. Now I need to go through and get it dialed in. I ran the site glass harness into my glove box since I will not be running the site glass in this car. I still need it to configure the controller, but after that all the data will show up on my tablet.


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

Looks awesome!
A real "sleeper"

On the accelerator sensitivity, I now have 1000amps under my foot and the Device feels "lively" I feel I'm having to be very careful with my foot
I'm thinking about putting a 5Kohm resistor across my pedal box with a switch to open that circuit when I want 1000amps
(we need a "mad scientist" or "evil engineer" icon)


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## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

Duncan said:


> Looks awesome!
> A real "sleeper"
> 
> On the accelerator sensitivity, I now have 1000amps under my foot and the Device feels "lively" I feel I'm having to be very careful with my foot
> ...


Your build is one of my most admired builds. The source of your chassis is a car builders dream. The 5k switch would be icing on the cake.


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## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

I have been programming my 1238, getting it all dialed in. I have my braking current set for 75% for my shifter mounted regen pot, and my neutral braking and shift neutral braking are set way down to 3%. This set up is absolutely sweet! It is like driving a DC motor, until you push down on the shifter mounted regen button. I played around with the brake current values quite a bit before settling on 75%, and that is a shitload of regen, all accessible with my right thumb. With the neutral braking set at only 3%, I can do clutchless shifts as easily as I can with my other DC conversion that is clutchless. This is exactly what I was dreaming about when I plotted this design. The shifter mounted brake pot is super smooth, super controllable, super predictable, and can stop the car just about as fast as the regular brakes. Great day for me...


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## Moltenmetal (Mar 20, 2014)

Well done! Do you have a programmer or are you doing everything with the spyglass and the menu button? 

I'm going to stick with the off pedal regen only until I pass my safety, then I'll be adding likely an overlapping brake pedal and pot for regen. There isn't enough slack travel available in my current brake pedal to make use of, I don't like the pressure transmitter idea because the mechanical brakes will waste some of the regen energy, and with direct no assist steering I like to keep both hands on the wheel...but your shifter arrangement is very nice. Like everything on your build, it's done to a very high standard. Glad it is making you happy!


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## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

I am doing all of my programming through the spyglass, so it is a pain in the butt. 

I came up with this idea for the shifter mounted brake pot after lots of road testing in the first metro conversion. I read an apparently controversial debate with jack Rickards from evtv explaining that off throttle regen not only does not increase range, but that it can even decrease it, due to disturbing the kinetic energy of a car that is traveling at a steady speed. It was a hard idea to grasp, since we all know that the principle of regen does work, and otherwise wasted energy does go back into the pack. What I got out of the debate and out of my personal experience, was the need for "on demand" regen. I can let off the throttle to time a red light without having to match my pedal position to my decreasing speed, and inattentive throttle input on the freeway will be more efficient. Regen works, but how it is implemented is the key.


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## 67BGTEV (Nov 1, 2013)

Evm, is it possible to add a regeneration off switch, I'm interested in throttle off regeneration with a switch to turn off regen, so that I can change gear (my setup is clutch less)


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## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

67BGTEV said:


> Evm, is it possible to add a regeneration off switch, I'm interested in throttle off regeneration with a switch to turn off regen, so that I can change gear (my setup is clutch less)


If you are running a 1238, there is a wire that is designed specifically for a clutch switch. You can run lots of off throttle regen, but defeat the regen while the clutch pedal is depressed. You can just use a finger operated switch to to defeat the regen during shifts, and then keep driving with as much off throttle regen as you like. You can program the amount of regen that occurs while your shift circuit is activated in increments of 1%. When I set my neutral regen (off throttle) to 0%, I can rev my motor up while it is in neutral and the motor will still free spin for almost a minute after I let off the throttle. After experimenting, I found that 3% regen allows a quicker and smoother clutchless shift than 0%. Because of this fine tuning capability of the regen during clutchless shifts, you can have nicer clutchless shifts with this AC motor than you would have with a DC motor.


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## 67BGTEV (Nov 1, 2013)

Cool, this may work well for me as well. Do you remember the pin number for clutch in 1238?


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## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

67BGTEV said:


> Cool, this may work well for me as well. Do you remember the pin number for clutch in 1238?


It is pin 5, but if you are looking at a Curtis harness, it is the brown wire.


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## 67BGTEV (Nov 1, 2013)

Gotcha will try it next week. . Thank you! !


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## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

When I went to put the center console in, the potentiometer for my shifter mounted regen controller was interfering with the center console, and the biggest part was right in the middle of the opening where the shifter passes through. I needed to either re design the shifter, or re design the center console. Here is a pic of the re designed center console. In the for ground, you can see the piece that I cut out.










This is how the original console was shaped. (this is a pic of the same console in a different car, in case you are wondering about the air filter laying there)










And here is a pic with the console modified and in place. The opening where the shifter passes through is now an inch lower. I pulled the shifter boot back and put it in reverse so you can see how the potentiometer overlaps above the console. Now it shifts into any gear with no interference.










.


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## tylerwatts (Feb 9, 2012)

Very smart


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## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

Here is a screen shot with the Curtis 1238 data on my Torque display. This is just a quick poke on the throttle to get a few rpms showing. It took some doing to make it happen, but it is all set up now. I have the throttle set to begin derating at 2.9 volts, and I set it to derate the throttle to 0 at 2.4 volts, which of course will never happen. I set the regen to derate at 3.5 volts. 










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## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

There is more HPEVS data that I can display, the stuff in the pic above is kinda hypothetical right now, since I just put some HPEVS stuff on the display so I can see if it works. The controller status can be displayed here too, which will be nice since I can't see the LED status lights on the controller when it is inside the gas tank. I have an HPEV voltage display too, but I have to reorganize my display layout on my main driving screen, and on my other screens. There is a guage for pretty much anything you could ever want in an EV, so it is hard to pick out which ones go on the driving screen. With the CANBUS controlled battery protection, it is tempting to just use a tach and speedo for the driving screen, but right now all the other data is a novelty so I want to see lots of that too....


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## 67BGTEV (Nov 1, 2013)

This is a great solution and exactly what I was looking for. Time to buy a BMS.


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## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

Early in this conversion, I built an electric heater core, using my oem water heater core for a proper fit. Here are a few pics:

Here I chopped of the top and bottom to fit into my heater box










and then I used windshield urethane to fix them in place:










Here it is all sealed up and ready to install:










When I hooked this up in my car, I ended up popping a fuse immediately. I took the heater core out and read it with a meter, poking around at all kinds of different places to see what I did wrong. Everywhere that I put my meter, I was able to read a dead short. What it turned out to be is the windshield urethane. I peeled off a piece of urethane and read it with my meter, and it turns out that windshield urethane is very conductive. I ended up having to rebuild my entire heater core with two new ceramic heater elements and something different than windshield urethane as building material. This time, I knew enough to read new proposed building material with a meter, and I conducted some heat tests with my infra red thermometer and my heat gun. I ended up using z grip body filler as my new heater core frame. When I did my tests, the polyester filler looked good up to 500 F, but it started turning brown around 550 F. My multimeter does not see this stuff, so I used this polyester filler to build my new frame. Here is the new heater core:










I have two ceramic elements in this heater core. Here is how it fits in the heater box:










I wanted to post this update on my heater core in case anybody was considering using the windshield urethane as building material for ceramic heater cores. Windshield urethane is a no no.


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## Moltenmetal (Mar 20, 2014)

I'd still be a little concerned as polyester filler is very flammable even when fully cured- as I discovered when welding patches on my "Bondo buggy"...it will self-sustain combustion, no additional heat source required, once it gets going...

Just make sure you keep the thermal fuses and bimetallic switch which came as part of the ceramic space heater you got the elements out of- they're free insurance. 

Yes I know that those heaters are typically in moulded ABS cases, but that thermoplastic is probably laden with fire retardants absent from your filler.

High temp silicone is a good bet as a mounting material or sealant, though non-structural. Or a frame of something non combustible such as Hardieboard fibre cement tile backer etc., surrounded then by your structural material.

Just suggestions- best to stay safe where fire is concerned. A fire under the dash would be a very nasty surprise!

Btw I love your drive information solution- it is simply awesome and I'm drooling over the info it gives you easy access to- I'd get in accidents watching that display rather than the road!


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## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

I noticed how the filler burns as well. The MSDS sheet says that it will self ignite over 900 F, but I will never even get close to that. I did pick a piece of filler up and torch it, and it does stay burning after the torch is removed. A piece of an extra plastic heater box stays burning as well, and puts out the same black smoke as the polyester does. I was concerned that the polyester got softer over 500 F, but my DVOM still does not see it even when it is soft enough to push my leads into it about 1mm. I might have gone with something different, but I always have the polyester filer in my shop. The fast set up time made it an easy build with all the little pieces that I had to mold...


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## Moltenmetal (Mar 20, 2014)

You're probably fine- just erring on the side of caution. with the thermal fuse and bimetallic temp switch, they get by with these in a plastic case which supports combustion too as you've said. If they were routinely burning down the house, we wouldn't see them on the market. your unit with its big thick plastic sections is unlikely to catch fire- as long as the fan runs while the element is on.


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## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

If I see this, I will know that I used the wrong stuff...


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## Vhclbldr (Feb 8, 2014)

I've heard of being toasty warm, but this is ridiculous! Hey, now you can roast marshmallows without needing a campfire.


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## favguy (May 2, 2008)

High temperature RTV silicon is the best stuff to use to mount the heater cores. I too am a little concerned about the body filler enclosure, do keep an eye on it...

I'm amazed to learn that windscreen urethane sealant is conductive though, I'd have never expected that! 

When are we going to get an update on your Cadillac beast?


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## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

Took her in for an appointment with a CA smog referee today. Here she is parked in the designated referee spot, waiting for the ref. This thing was a blast to drive around today. I switched over to the eco mode on my way back to the shop, and that is set for a maximum of 400 amps. That may sound like a lot for you guys who are running high voltage packs, but it is not a lot of get up and go on a 120 volt pack. 400 amps in eco mode feels very economical, but I switched back to full power after a few blocks of that.










I also got a completed weight, now that it is all put together.










.Here it is with an interior










Even have carpet on my electronics now!










.Here is my driving screen. Don't worry, those resistance values are not actual. I just did some profile changes, and have to drive around the block to establish those resistance values.










and here is my charging screen










.


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## onegreenev (May 18, 2012)

Very Nice. I suppose the beastie passed with flying colors. Yeah! 400 amps on a low voltage system is just not going to cut the mustard. At least 550 is minimum in my experience.

Way to go!


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## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

onegreenev said:


> Very Nice. I suppose the beastie passed with flying colors. Yeah! 400 amps on a low voltage system is just not going to cut the mustard. At least 550 is minimum in my experience.
> 
> Way to go!


I can program in whatever value I like on the eco mode, and that 400 amps feels very comparable to an ICE 3 cyl Metro. There are a bunch of other values that can be adjusted for the eco mode, but the big one is the max current. I will probably use this mode occasionally, but as cheap as fuel is for an EV, I will probably just leave it in full power mode.


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## PStechPaul (May 1, 2012)

It might be cool to make the backround color of each of the monitors change from green through yellow and then red depending on the value. It would give an instant indication of the relative values to each other, and to a preset nominal. Looks like the decimal point is wrong on your high/low cell readout. It looks very good.


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## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

PStechPaul said:


> It might be cool to make the backround color of each of the monitors change from green through yellow and then red depending on the value. It would give an instant indication of the relative values to each other, and to a preset nominal. Looks like the decimal point is wrong on your high/low cell readout. It looks very good.


Lol, that decimal point has kicked my ass. The pid ends in 10000.0 like it is, but if i change it to 100.0, the decimal lands in the right place. When the decimal lands in the right place, it reads 3.33, and no more decimal places. When I see 333.3, I can see more data than just 3.33. I don't know how to get it to read 3.333.


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## jwiger (Oct 18, 2014)

Beautiful job! The thing I like the most about it, is it doesn't look like a science experiment.


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## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

I took this conversion for a long ride today, and it was a blast. The on demand regen system is even more fantastic than i had even hoped for, and this system will be retrofitted on my first conversion as well. I took it out into the foothills, up and down steep grades, mashed the accelerator, and tried to do bad things, but the controller responded to all of the canbus data from the orion and kept all of my cells within the window that I programmed in. When I floor it going up a steep grade, I can see the current is being limited to stop my lowest cell from sagging below the low threshhold that I programmed in. I only used the brake pedal below 5 mph, and pretty much ALL of my braking energy was recovered. Back in the off throttle regen days, I probably recovered 1/10 of what this on demand set up recovers, and wasted the majority of that on disturbing the kinetic energy. Today was probably the most magical day out of all of my time driving EVs, and not only did I have an EV grin, but I had EV laughter.


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## onegreenev (May 18, 2012)

Kudos on your work. Love those grin moments. Laughter! Not yet. Mmmmm. Must be missing something here.


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## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

Having a full on braking system that is controlled with a thumb took a little getting used to after only having a foot brake my entire life, but it grows on you very quickly. Once you get used to it, it seems a bit cumbersome to use your foot, and the thumb control starts making a lot more sense. 

If you look at an appropriate setting for an off throttle regen system, they are typically set up for 10 to 20% of what is available, and you still need to use the friction brakes. This means that you don't recover much energy, and there is still a lot of waste. I have my on demand system dialed back to 60% now, and that feels comparable to the factory friction brakes. I can set it much higher, but since I never use that much regen, the travel of my thumb button would have wasted real estate at the bottom. 60% gives the optimum usage of the travel of the potentiometer. What really makes this on demand system sweet, is the energy that does not get wasted when you drop regen altogether, and freewheel. You can ease off the regen at the bottom of a long grade, and then freewheel like a DC motor when you are close to the bottom. Back in the off throttle days, I had to gradually start pushing the accelerator to prevent continued regen, so I missed a lot of opportunities and disturbed a lot of kinetic energy. 

So far, all of my driving has been pushing and testing limits, so I have not compiled any efficiency data yet, but that is coming soon. I can already tell from my SOC and DOD gauges that my numbers are substantially better than my first AC conversion (that ran this very motor and controller) at points of travel that I know, but I have not done any steady freeway range testing yet. I do have a very slight advantage in this one of two more batteries and a bit less weight, but I should know a lot more really soon.


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## palmer_md (Jul 22, 2011)

Awesome report. Great to hear how well it's working. Congratulations on another fine build.


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## Moltenmetal (Mar 20, 2014)

The Orion/canbus solution with all the controller parameters available for display is so excellent- it would be getting me into accidents though!

Waiting until after my safety to add a pot to the first bit of travel of my brake pedal. Will need to add springs to give it more resistance, but there's enough slack that I think it will work. Glad you love your thumb pot solution- it will be my fallback solution.


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## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

Moltenmetal said:


> The Orion/canbus solution with all the controller parameters available for display is so excellent- it would be getting me into accidents though!



If you have the Curtis decrease current to keep your lowest cell from ever sagging below your lowest desired voltage, all you really need is this for a display.










I have a lot of instrumentation on my regular driving screen, but this is because I built the car and am fascinated with all the data. The whole point of having all the canbus data and enforcing all the limits for my cells is so I don't really need anything more than a speedometer and SOC gauge. 



> Waiting until after my safety to add a pot to the first bit of travel of my brake pedal. Will need to add springs to give it more resistance, but there's enough slack that I think it will work. Glad you love your thumb pot solution- it will be my fallback solution.


From my experience, using a brake pot on the brake pedal will be more efficient than using off throttle regen. The brake pedal pot would be a partially on demand regen system that would still allow you to get rid of the kinetic energy robbing off throttle regen, while still getting the rewards of regen. My concern with mixing the regen into the friction braking system was that it throws the distribution of the oem engineered distribution of front to rear braking ratio off, which may adversely effect how the car performs in an emergency braking action. Even though this is a lightweight conversion, I still went with a vacuum pump and reservoir to keep my original brakes working at their best. I don't even use my brake pedal at speeds over 5 mph, but I wanted to make sure that every bit of braking ability if there in an emergency, with no need whatsoever for my on demand regen pot. Even with these concerns, I think I would still rather have a pot on my brake pedal and enjoy the freewheeling action of a DC motor than ever use off throttle regen again. That's the beauty of our controllers- we can each program them for our own needs, driving styles, and preferences. Another plus for the world of DIY EV conversions!


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## PStechPaul (May 1, 2012)

Nice! (Or is than N-ICE?) It will be interesting to see how much improvement in efficiency and range there might be with such effective regen. I wonder if you could use motor reversing to come to a full stop and hold on a hill? Of course, that would take energy from the batteries where the friction brakes would avoid that, but it might not take very much and may be convenient for slow stop-and-go driving where you need to dance between accelerator and brake.


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## Moltenmetal (Mar 20, 2014)

Your point about the extra braking beyond the OEM design is a good one, especially with mine being RWD- you don't want to lock up the rear wheels! I will need a pot or switch on the dash to allow me to defeat or trim back the regen during particularly bad weather, because I will need full OEM braking without the risk of locking up the rears- and if I use the slop in the brake pedal to operate my regen, I won't be able to use my mech brakes without first going to full regen. But because mine is also manual rack and pinion steering with no assist, keeping both hands on the wheel during a hard braking event is also a must.


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## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

So I took her out for a range test today, with two objectives in mind. The first was simply to explore the range capabilites, the second and most important was to ensure that it performed correctly as it ran out of energy. Normally, one does not run a lithium EV until it stalls, but since the canbus communication between the Orion and the Curtis is meant to protect the pack while underway, I wanted to verify my settings. Everything went smoothly for the first 100 miles, and this is when I finally got to watch the current get cutback. As the freeway would go up as an overpass, my lowest cell began to sag to 2.8 volts, which is where I have my controller programmed to begin cutting current. I could mash the pedal to the floor, but the lowest cell sag would not dip below 2.77. Once I would get over the overpass, I could pick up speed again, but it got tough to maintain 55mph eventually, so I finally pulled over and loaded it up on my follow vehicle and hauled it back to the shop. It was pretty cool watching the electronics step in and prevent the pack from intentionally being run into the ground. I ended up loading it up at 106 miles, two of the 36 batteries were resting at 2.95, and the other 34 were resting around 3.16. I will see if I can manually charge those two with my bench power supply after the pack is charged, hopefully they will have a little more room left at the top. For the few of you local guys, this run was from my shop to an exit about 10 miles north of Williams on I5, and then back south. I loaded it up on the trailer just before I got back into Woodland.


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## onegreenev (May 18, 2012)

That means you can get out to my place and back with plenty to spare. 

Nice to hear your setup is working as expected. My Synkro does exactly the same thing. Won't allow the vehicle to go below a set pack voltage. Period. It will cut current to keep the pack voltage at or above that set level. 

Glad to hear you got a great range test. What was your speed for most of the drive before needing to load it up? 

Are you using 200ah or 300ah cells in your beastie?


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## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

onegreenev said:


> That means you can get out to my place and back with plenty to spare.
> 
> Nice to hear your setup is working as expected. My Synkro does exactly the same thing. Won't allow the vehicle to go below a set pack voltage. Period. It will cut current to keep the pack voltage at or above that set level.
> 
> ...


Yea, I think it would have no problem getting out to your place and back. I have the pack voltage set up to cutback the throttle as well, but I like the lowest cell cutback a lot more.

I kept my speed between 55 and 60 for this run.

the pack is 200AH x 36.


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## onegreenev (May 18, 2012)

That exceeds the distance at those speeds that I can do with the Leaf. I am happy to announce that the new Leaf is getting around 75 to 80 miles at speeds of 55 to 60 mph for my daily commute. Much better than the first Leaf. So I can also do a pretty decent trip now that there are a few ChadeMo chargers in Sac. I plan on coming out to the shop soon. Would like to meet up with Palmer too.


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## PStechPaul (May 1, 2012)

217 W-h per mile. That's pretty good!


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## onegreenev (May 18, 2012)

PStechPaul said:


> 217 W-h per mile. That's pretty good!


Yes and we shall see what it is after 3 years. My other Leaf was nearly as good when it was new too.



> 217 wh per mile


Something like that.


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## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

I am not sure yet what the spec is. I have it charging right now, and am anxious to see if there is is any more room at the top of my lowest cells. One of the low cells does have a characteristic where the voltage settles much more quickly than the other cells do after the charger shuts off, so it may have a reduced capacity. I have seen this characteristic in some of my other packs, and it does not always mean that that cell has less capacity, but I have had one that had to be warrantied by the manufacturer. Since my lowest cell voltage is what shuts the car down, there may be a bit more range left in the remaining cells. I doubt that there is a whole lot left once I pass the 100 mile mark, but it is certainly worth exploring. The most important thing to me about that drive was witnessing the car losing power and eventually shutting down to protect the lowest cell. Without this technology, it is easy to punish a cell or cells while underway and near the bottom of the pack capacity. On that note, I really like what GreenEV mentioned about cutting back current for overall pack voltage as well. I can't remember what I set that parameter for, and I was not even thinking about that parameter when I was running out of juice, but that is probably another current limit that is worth enforcing and observing.


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## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

Here it is out in the wild.










Here I am loading her up after a range test. I just pulled off onto the shoulder of the freeway when it was done, then loaded it up on my follow vehicle.


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## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

I had to come up with these longer ramps for my first conversion, since that one has a custom front bumper that is lower to the ground, and a little less ground clearance. These longer ones are heavier, so it is a manly task to pull them out of the under side of the trailer and carry them to the loading position, but it makes for a really easy job driving the car up onto the trailer.










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## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

I have been having a resistance problem on the long cable that runs from the front of my pack under the hood back to the other half of my pack in the back of the car. The tiniest amount of resistance added to the lengthy cable reads as a voltage drop being calculated and reported. Since I have the Orion and the controller set up to limit my voltage sag to 2.8 volts, a voltage drop in one cell means controller current gets cut to stop the sag. Anyway, I have crimped, and re crimped the cable lugs on both ends of the cable until resistance values were as low as I could get them, and then resorted to melting the strands into the lug. I was not sure if this would help, so it was kind of a test. The cable lugs are closed at the ends, but the ends were cut open to expose the strands, and then melted in with the TIG. The filler is silicon bronze. Anyway, this did indeed reduce the resistance under load more than I was able to get by squeezing them alone. I still ended up having to adjust the bus bar impedance for that cable in the Orion settings to match the long cable's resistance to all the little short solid bus bars, but I feel like I got the resistance of the cable lugs down as far as what is possible first.










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## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

The back up lights just did not put out enough light to overcome the window tint, so I had to upgrade them. I had gotten some nice Phillips 194 type LED bulbs for this when I was building the car, but they still didn't have enough light. Anyway, here is what I did.




























The downside is that you can tell that the back up lights are not factory. I really like to be subtle when I build a custom ride, but these are noticeable even when they are not lit up. On the plus side, they make night into day. Plenty of light, window tint or not.










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## Russco (Dec 23, 2008)

"Anyway, here is what I did."

So, it looks like you placed 5 lights of some sort in each BU lamp assembly.

What _are_ those lights?


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## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

Russco said:


> "Anyway, here is what I did."
> 
> So, it looks like you placed 5 lights of some sort in each BU lamp assembly.
> 
> What _are_ those lights?


Almost forgot we are on a forum where people have the technical background to understand what they are. Those are 9 watt SMDs, packaged into waterproof easy to mount housings, so 45 watts per side, 90 watts total. Definitely a nice grade from the original 194 style push in bulbs...

Here is a pic of the push in style bulb next to the 9 watt SMD cluster. I had one peanut bulb per tail light assembly before, and now 5 of the 9w SMDs per side.










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## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

These guys make some heat, but not really a big deal for back up lights that are not under constant duty. After about a minute or two, the lenses feel warm to the touch. If the demand for these back up lights was like the demand of the head lights, I am sure the lenses would deteriorate, but I rarely use them for more than 30 seconds. I left them on for about ten minutes to see the worst case scenario, and they do not get any hotter than they do after about a minute, which is reasonable.

Next on the agenda is the head lights. I post something on that as I dig in...


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## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

PStechPaul said:


> 217 W-h per mile. That's pretty good!



It has gotten better since then. I went through all of my HVDC connections to eliminate all of the resistance, so I can see real cell voltages instead of calculated voltage drops. 

Here is a cutaway of what my connections have to look like to eleiminate the excess resistance. This is done on a 20 ton press.










I don't know how much the extra resistance of imperfect connections effects the efficiency, but I know for sure that my cell voltages were being displayed based on a calculation that included voltage drop that resulted from imperfect connections. The pack has been top balanced many times since that initial range test, which allows me to get more energy out of the other cells. I can get my 120 miles of range now, but not every time. When I run this flat 55 mph test, it leaves me on the same playing field as any other EV as far as getting along with mother nature's rules, but when it comes to city traffic or twisty mountain roads, the combination that I am running of the on-demand regen, the no off throttle regen, and no use of the brake pedal, simply dominates the world of efficiency. When I use the eco mode with current limited to 400 amps, and actually make an effort to drive efficiently, the controls that I have equipped this thing with yield amazing results.


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## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

Here she is at the 7-11 where I get my morning coffee, and where I don't need to buy gasoline for it. She was looking good when I came out with my coffee the other day, so I had to snap a pic.










Here she is with some of her ICE cousins here at the shop.










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## PStechPaul (May 1, 2012)

That's a good-looking crimp. It may also help to use a little bit of silver plating on the contact surfaces. There is a product called Cool-Amp that is not too expensive and simply brushes on. Or you can get an electroplating kit.


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## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

PStechPaul said:


> That's a good-looking crimp. It may also help to use a little bit of silver plating on the contact surfaces. There is a product called Cool-Amp that is not too expensive and simply brushes on. Or you can get an electroplating kit.


That's some "cool" looking stuff. I don't really know how much energy is lost to the small amounts of resistance between bus bars and the batteries after you add them all up, but I can see the every mOhm counts. Thanks for the tip.


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## Jarel Design (Jul 2, 2015)

After "browsing" your build thread, I began reading completely and spending much more time on the photos...

What an incredible build!!! As a prototype designer/builder, I can be critical (especially of my own work!).

What I see in your work is truly an art form! I am so blown away!!!

I've bookmarked your build thread (up to page 10), and 'm reserving my morning coffee time to continue thoroughly reading it.

Thank you so much for sharing!!!! (Can't wait to reach the end, but also anticipating the loss of continued inspiration through your example!)

Best to you,

Richard


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## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

Thanks for checking it out. I have the interior out right now for some creature comfort upgrades. A little better on the audio, more DC DC to run the better audio, and I have power locks and power hatch release now on my key fob.


There are a couple other builds down below in my signature if you enjoy this kind of stuff.


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## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

The audio was pretty weak in this build, so I got rid of the little 4" 22 year old paper speakers in the back and upgraded to something a little newer and bigger. I got a Kicker amp and Kicker speakers. Since I was already into this rear quarter panel area, I went ahead and used the space for an alarm while I was in there. I had to make a little pocket for the alarm module to attach to, and I found that if I mounted relays backwards, they would fit into that cavity with no interference when I put the trim panel back on.










Not the prettiest wiring, but this is the only time you can see it. Once the trim panel is back on, you won't be able to see any of this area. I needed a bunch of relays since this car has never had power locks or power trunk release. I needed another one to do the 30 second dome light delay when I disarm/unlock it.










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## Jarel Design (Jul 2, 2015)

Just finished reading your entire thread...

I have no words to describe how blown away I am at every discipline you excel at!!!! From electronics, to fabrication, systems design to body work to interior work...

OMG!!!!

Again, I don't really have words to do your skills justice.. I'm so far beyond impressed...

OK... now to start your other thread!!! LOL!

I really need to get some work done! Just can't pull myself away!

Thank you so much for sharing all of this! I learned so much!

Best,
Richard


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## Vhclbldr (Feb 8, 2014)

Jarel Design said:


> Just finished reading your entire thread...
> 
> I have no words to describe how blown away I am at every discipline you excel at!!!! From electronics, to fabrication, systems design to body work to interior work...
> 
> ...



Richard, you are not alone. I have followed his build progress and his attention to detail is fantastic. I am hoping to emulate his level of quality and craftsmanship on my build, but will probably fall a little short. This would place my vehicle in the production-car level of build quality, instead of Italian super car level.


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## Jarel Design (Jul 2, 2015)

I'm right there with you about EVmetro! 

Just started reading his first build and did not realize he began with so little information! Adds to the hopes that my not knowing anything can be elevated (Probably not as high, but still, hopefully enough to understand principles and concepts), by reading his thread and learning from him.

I've been taking notes, writing everything down that seemed important... For me, that's almost everything! LOL!

Richard


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## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

This rig is still running great, but I have finally found a small disadvantage in using regen as the primary braking system. While the pads on my friction brakes still look new, I experience a little extra tire wear on my front tires. Not only do the front tires propel the car, but they also handle 95% of my braking, so they wear faster than the rears, and faster than the front tires of an ICE Metro. The rear tires do last longer than they would on a comparable Metro that uses all four wheels for the braking, so this compensates for the extra wear on the fronts. I have not done any quantitative note taking or calculations, but I am quite confident that the energy savings of having variable on demand regen is greater than what the trivial increase in tire wear costs. I still maintain that using regen for the primary braking system, and using variable on demand regen are the most efficient way to go.


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## Ampster (Oct 6, 2012)

evmetro said:


> This rig is still running great, but I have finally found a small disadvantage in using regen as the primary braking system. While the pads on my friction brakes still look new, I experience a little extra tire wear on my front tires. Not only do the front tires propel the car, but they also handle 95% of my braking, so they wear faster than the rears, and faster than the front tires of an ICE Metro. The rear tires do last longer than they would on a comparable Metro that uses all four wheels for the braking, so this compensates for the extra wear on the fronts. I have not done any quantitative note taking or calculations, but I am quite confident that the energy savings of having variable on demand regen is greater than what the trivial increase in tire wear costs. I still maintain that using regen for the primary braking system, and using variable on demand regen are the most efficient way to go.


I agree with your observation. I have a dual motor Tesla and after 26k miles the front tires have more wear. 

Sent from my SM-N910T using Tapatalk


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## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

Ampster said:


> I agree with your observation. I have a dual motor Tesla and after 26k miles the front tires have more wear.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N910T using Tapatalk


I am not up to date on the technology that Tesla uses, but I was under the impression that they still use a blend of regen and friction, but mostly friction. From what I can tell, my slight increase in tire wear in the front comes from transferring the wear and tear that was previously distributed between four tires to only two. If Tesla is still using off throttle regen, this may cause a tiny bit more wear on the tires, since off throttle regen can occur at inopportune times, but I would think it would be more evenly distributed if yours has front and rear drives. I still run the outdated off throttle regen on my 98 Metro conversion, but the tire wear is similar to ice, since I have to use the friction brakes.


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## Ampster (Oct 6, 2012)

evmetro said:


> I am not up to date on the technology that Tesla uses, but I was under the impression that they still use a blend of regen and friction, but mostly friction. From what I can tell, my slight increase in tire wear in the front comes from transferring the wear and tear that was previously distributed between four tires to only two. If Tesla is still using off throttle regen, this may cause a tiny bit more wear on the tires, since off throttle regen can occur at inopportune times, but I would think it would be more evenly distributed if yours has front and rear drives. I still run the outdated off throttle regen on my 98 Metro conversion, but the tire wear is similar to ice, since I have to use the friction brakes.


Inopportune times? I am in full control of that foot and I love one foot driving. The friction brakes don't come on until the end. The load shift when slowing down is probably what accounts for the slight extra wear on the front tires. Actually it would probably be the same using friction brakes. 

Sent from my SM-N910T using Tapatalk


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## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

Ampster said:


> Inopportune times? I am in full control of that foot and I love one foot driving. The friction brakes don't come on until the end.


Yes inopportune times. Off throttle regen occurs when you let up on the accelerater, instead of at opportune times. It is non smart technology, kinda like an air compressor in your garage that only turns on and off when a pressure switch tells it to. Regen should only occur when you want to slow down or stop, not everytime you back off the pedal. Humans can't match deadband for more than a few seconds, so they inevitably waste energy if you put one in charge of an off throttle regen system.

The reason why heat is still created and wasted via friction brakes on off throttle EVs, is because the maximum amount of regen that can be used without running into severe drivabiliy problems and severe energy waste, is only about 15% of maximum regen potential. Most of the braking will need to come from the friction brakes, and all of it beyond about 50 or 60 kW will be friction. 



> The load shift when slowing down is probably what accounts for the slight extra wear on the front tires. Actually it would probably be the same using friction brakes.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N910T using Tapatalk


The fronts wear faster on most cars anyway, since the fronts handle steering, plus more braking than the back. On front wheel drive, there is more wear n tear from acceleration. I see a more disproportionate amount of wear on my fronts, since my rears do not handle any braking, steering, or acceleration. It just makes tire rotation a little more important for me.

That dual motor Tesla sounds like a blast. With the acceleration videos that I have seen on these rigs, I would suspect that it would be very easy to waste a whole lot of energy as testosterone commands more pedal. Even on my Metro conversions, a lot of energy is wasted via excessive EV torque being used to produce the EV grin, so I would imagine that this same phenomenon is even more pronounced with a dual motor Tesla.


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## Ampster (Oct 6, 2012)

evmetro said:


> ............. a lot of energy is wasted via excessive EV torque being used to produce the EV grin, so I would imagine that this same phenomenon is even more pronounced with a dual motor Tesla.


Yes, the energy used to produce EV grin is wasteful. I should have been more clear about my one foot driving. I try to feather the pedal as much as possible and one of the displays that I keep visible on the main dash is the power meter. I do try to avoid regen if I can. The thing that is interesting is that the adaptive cruise control can see changes in distance more quickly than my aging eyes. In traffic it seems to be very efficient and can do a better job than my foot. My data is anectdotal, but other Tesla Fan boys have said the same thing. I also think you are right about tire wear. There is probably no difference in my car with 4 wheel drive. My former VW conversion was fun to play with the Curtiss settings especially with a pot on the brake pedal. I had it tweaked up so high one time that I liked the rear wheels.


Sent from my SM-N910T using Tapatalk


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## Moltenmetal (Mar 20, 2014)

I now have a combination of off-pedal and pedal regen. I can defeat the pedal regen in wet weather, and when my clutch pedal switch gets wet, it defeats off-pedal regen too...I know the off pedal regen is inefficient, but it gives the car a feel closer to what it had as an IC engine car, i.e. a little engine braking. And unfortunately, because I don't have a Curtis programmer nor the means to update the software on my Curtis controller, I'm stuck with a problem whereby I can't set my brake pedal pot span properly- I'm stuck with the default values. So in order to get full 200A regen, I need the combination of off pedal and pedal regen. 

In my car, it's the rear tires which wear faster, though since I did a very careful alignment using my very best quality string (and a great deal of care), I haven't noticed excessive tire wear so far. I do squawk the rear tires from time to time, sometimes just for fun, and sometimes from hard braking- which is why I like to have that regen defeat switch...I leave lots of space in front of me because the car is old, no airbags or crumple zone, and since I've been driving hybrids since 2008- always best to drive as if you have an egg under your brake pedal.


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## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

Moltenmetal said:


> I now have a combination of off-pedal and pedal regen. I can defeat the pedal regen in wet weather, and when my clutch pedal switch gets wet, it defeats off-pedal regen too...I know the off pedal regen is inefficient, but it gives the car a feel closer to what it had as an IC engine car, i.e. a little engine braking. And unfortunately, because I don't have a Curtis programmer nor the means to update the software on my Curtis controller, I'm stuck with a problem whereby I can't set my brake pedal pot span properly- I'm stuck with the default values. So in order to get full 200A regen, I need the combination of off pedal and pedal regen.
> 
> In my car, it's the rear tires which wear faster, though since I did a very careful alignment using my very best quality string (and a great deal of care), I haven't noticed excessive tire wear so far. I do squawk the rear tires from time to time, sometimes just for fun, and sometimes from hard braking- which is why I like to have that regen defeat switch...I leave lots of space in front of me because the car is old, no airbags or crumple zone, and since I've been driving hybrids since 2008- always best to drive as if you have an egg under your brake pedal.


Indeed, off throttle regen can simulate the feel of an ICE. I still run off throttle occasionally, but have found that there is no turning back after getting used to variable on demand regen. The amount of energy that is wasted on non-smart regen technology is something that I do not know how to express mathematically, but it is far more than most EV enthusiasts would ever suspect. Simulating the feel of an ICE is quite a different situation though, since the objective is no longer efficiency.


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## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

This rig is temporarily out of service. I am having problems with the EMW charger, but I have an Elcon with canbus control standing by. Just need the time to do the install.


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## kubvan (Dec 9, 2014)

Hi EVMetro, great build story. I was wondering did you have or figure out the POD codes from the curtis controller or are your relying on the the bms /odbii software. I am building an arduino interface to my curtis controller. I can read the messages now but they are in the can bus format and do not make much sense at this point. Do you have this information or know where I can find it.


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