# Brainstorming 24v or 36v build



## DaveyG (Apr 9, 2013)

So I've been lurking here for a few years, daydreaming of someday building a electric motorcycle... When last week the forklift at my work died (transmission problems) I asked for the motor, and they gave it to me, along with a brand new set of brushes, and then told me to take anything else I wanted before they called a scrap yard to come haul it off... So last night I yanked the speed controller, and all heavy gauge wiring out of it. It was a 24v unit but my understanding is that overvolting an electric motor on occasion isn't really THAT destructive, so I was thinking I'd just throw the original controller on eBay, then search for a more compact 36v candidate. I've owned and ridden a slew of old Japanese motorcycles over the years, but my electronics experience is limited to tearing apart and repairing R/C cars as a teen. I was thinking that sourcing a existing road bike with no engine might be a good starting point, and I'm a pretty decent welder, and a machinist by trade, should cover me from there. What kind of controller should I look for? I've read mostly good things about the Curtis units used in golf carts, and I know they are available in 24v and 36v application. My goals aren't too crazy, I only have a 4 mile each way commute, so range won't be a huge issue, and depending on route, the maximum speed limit is either 35mph or 50mph, I figure if I aim for 40-45mph top speed and a 10-12 mile range, I won't be asking for something impossible. Any suggestions from the collective? Thanks!


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

Quick - before it goes
You want all of the contactors and any big Alderson type connectors
Also all of the heavy cables and the throttle system

How is the motor coupled up to the drive? - grab any bits you can

You may not use these bits on this project but they are all expensive to buy later


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## DaveyG (Apr 9, 2013)

Ok cool I will try to steal all of that stuff, Aldersen connectors? I'll have to google that. The original transmission is pretty much completely grenaded. Had a tapered roller bearing go out and the bearing cage pieces floated around inside tearing up all of the gears and clutches inside. So there's really nothing left of it. I'll probably just run a sprocket right off of the motor shaft and a chain drive to the rear wheel. I wish I could come up with some kind of two speed transmission, but without making it weigh 500 pounds extra, it might not be worth the extra hassle. I think I'll try to just sell off all the extra parts I don't want to use and buy more svelte pieces. I'm leaning toward a cafe racer look, should be interesting being that the engine is a very central design element on a cafe.


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

Hi
It's not the gearbox bits you want - just the part that actually goes onto the motor shaft - grab that - damage probably doesn't matter as you will be machining it or welding onto it to attach your chain sprocket


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## DaveyG (Apr 9, 2013)

Ah gotcha. I'll see what I can snag outta the grime.


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

Re controller
Depending on what you want to do 
Basically the higher the voltage and current the better

Think about a "Paul & Sabrina" OpenRevolt kit - 150v and 500 amps - the kit is about $600 
I had great fun and learned a ton building mine (and I had zero electronic experience)
I did melt a couple of things

There is no such thing as too much power!


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## hmincr (Jan 20, 2012)

I fabricated a home made motorcycle of sorts. I used a fairly powerful scooter hub motor and made up a 20S (74v Nominal) battery pack of 45Ahr capacity. 

I live in a very hilly, mountainous area and I have to run the hills and allow for over heating the controller and motor.

I am also building another motorcycle by converting a Dirt Bike frame. It will have 2 front wheels, etc. What I have found is, a forklift motor will be awkward to mount in a motorcycle. Also, Here, in Costa Rica, we get Chinese motorcycles along with Japanese. My conversion build has a single top rail where the gas tank mounted. I would consider selling the forklift motor and scan ebay, (for info on what's available) and use a 4000-6000 W pancake shaped hubmotor mounted like mine. Most would have a disc brake mount area so attach the sprocket there. Controllers in 48V are cheap and common, so, that would also give you regen capability, and save on brake pad use.

In the USA, Most motorcycles have an open top frame of 2 rails. The one I have will allow me to stand on end 1 12S and 1 6S Chevy Volt module, in the space between the seat post area and the down tube where the engine would bolt on. 

If you did something like that, you would have minimum 48V (45V Nominal) and 45Ahr capacity. That would be 2KWH of capacity, and, if you use 120whr per mile, (could be less ), that would equal 15+ miles on fairly flat ground. 1 12S volt module weighs 40# and would sit low in the frame. Later on, you could double that battery and have 96V @ 45Ahr or 48V @ 90 Ahr, which would nearly double your distance. 

Enertrac Co. sells a hubmotor for motorcycles. What I am doing, is, mounting the hub motor only, right under the seat and where the single shock used to be, and gearing it down so I get hill climbing power and decent speed, I hope !

I am mounting a 30S 120V 45Ahr battery very low in the extended frame I built and added to the existing dirt bike frame, and still have room for controller(s) 2, that will drive the 6 phase motor. I also plan on aero fairings and have some grocery storage areas included, think can Am Spyder, only not as big and heavy. 

You might get better info over on the elmoto.net website. \several conversions on that site, mostly using heavy lead batteries  mounted higher than what I described.


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## Yabert (Feb 7, 2010)

DaveyG said:


> Any suggestions from the collective? Thanks!


Look for a 48v controller (at least, 72v is better). Your general performance will be better.
Here is a good supplier. http://www.evdrives.com/category_s/1832.htm
You can look for use Alltrax controller too.

Some idea: http://www.evalbum.com/type/MTCY


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## DaveyG (Apr 9, 2013)

Ok cool I'll see what I can find for a higher voltage controller. Thanks for the input


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## DaveyG (Apr 9, 2013)

Ok so here is what I managed to grab before the tow truck took the rest away. I have yet to rebuild the controls since I kinda took them all apart the wrong way... Had I known I would need to remove the whole mounting plate to get to screws from the back, I would've left the gigantic solenoid looking things intact... And I'm having a hell of a time finding a schematic (For a 1998 Prime Mover model RC30 forklift if anybody else can google better than I can today) to help guide me thru reassembly. I guess I needed to take more before pics. Crap. Anyway, the motor is a 7" diameter, 11" long PRESTOLITE (which ironically weighs about 80 pounds) 24v motor. I'm actually considering building a 4-wheeled roadworthy contraption now that I have all of the motor controls, potentiometer, etc. perhaps I can find an old ATV to rob suspension components from... And just lengthen and widen into a single seater mini car thingy... Just thinking from a practicality standpoint a road legal small car would benefit me more, considering its winter here (and below freezing) 5 months out of the year, a form of cabin might be beneficial, with a removable soft top like a jeep for summer. And that way I could probably just reuse the existing controller bits as is, their size and weight be damned.
Anywho, for those interested, the album of pictures of this mess can be found here: http://s47.photobucket.com/user/daveygunit/library/EVAlbum


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## DaveyG (Apr 9, 2013)

I've decided on a trike, I think. The image in my head is a shrunken T-Rex with room for only one occupant, and a semi-monocoque style body with an exposed pair of front wheels (front half of chassis is coming off of a Suzuki ATV, but I will be lengthening the A-arms to provide a wider, more stable stance) and the rear single wheel and swingarm will be made from this: 


A Yamaha Maxim 650 frame, swingarm, shaft, wheel, and brake assembly.
YES, I KNOW A SHAFT DRIVE IS NOT THE MOST EFFICIENT!!!
But I love how nearly maintenance free and bulletproof it is, and I also think it will work quite nicely allowing me to run the motor longitudinally, instead of horizontally, making it so the power only transitions around one 90 degree (at the wheel) I'm thinking this will provide a good basis for my needs, being that the motorcycle riding season in ID is only about 4-5 months, this chassis design (along with a body and windscreen of sorts) will allow for more or less year-round use. The other benefit of a trike will be allowing use of my already existing GE EV-100 controls, and not needing to dump several hundred dollars on a more compact speed controller. Thoughts?


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## Yabert (Feb 7, 2010)

Your plan seem good... except the GE EV-100 controls part.
Start looking on ebay or other for a good 48v or 72v motor controller.


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## DaveyG (Apr 9, 2013)

I know a Curtis golf cart controller would be better, but I don't have $200-500 laying around. I figure the EV-100 will suffice at least temporarily, to get my design proven if nothing else.


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## DaveyG (Apr 9, 2013)

Any thoughts on using several of these batteries? I'm thinking 9-12 of them (with 3 serial wired banks of 3-4 wired parallel per bank) What kind of efficiency could I expect from this, trying to propel a 600-800 pound trike, with a 175 pound occupant?
http://www.usbphoneworld.com/dell-1735-bl-5455h.html?CAWELAID=916836065


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## DaveyG (Apr 9, 2013)

I had considered using 18650 batteries and building my own packs, but I think that would be a bit beyond my skill level. These 11v laptop batteries would get me started into Lithium-Ion technology without costing any more than a pair or trio of large lead acid deep cycle batteries would cost.


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## Yabert (Feb 7, 2010)

DaveyG said:


> Any thoughts on using several of these batteries? I'm thinking 9-12 of them (with 3 serial wired banks of 3-4 wired parallel per bank)


You are talking about 12 time 60wh low power cells.... it's only 0,7 kWh of energy.
Don't loose your time and money and try to find used chevy Volt or Nissan Leaf cells at low price. They are high power, high quality battery.
What I have in hand is 4 kWh of battery and a friend find this for 200$ few weeks ago.

Inspiration: http://www.evalbum.com/type/MTCY


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## DaveyG (Apr 9, 2013)

I haven't had any luck in my area finding a single hybrid, let alone EV in any junkyards in my area... and there's but no way I'm paying eBay prices for a few leaf cells...


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## DaveyG (Apr 9, 2013)

OOoh! Just looked up Volt battery and I can find them for drastically cheaper than the leaf cells I looked up previously! So what's the minimum I would want to get my desired results? 1KwH 48v pack from a bolt is around $250 shipped (what I would end up paying for a couple of lead acid deep cycle batteries anyway) so what would be the minimum to get my small (600-800lb) trike to reach 12-14mile range?


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## puddleglum (Oct 22, 2008)

I really hope you can make this come together as I think it will be a cool project. There is lots of good info on here in the wiki on how to calculate power needs. You can also check out this link: https://jessetufts.wordpress.com/20...tation-symposium-ev-conversion-101/ev101-pdf/ I found the info quite easy to follow. I know you won't find many here that will agree with me, but I think the EV100 controller may work pretty well. I don't have any first hand experience to back it up though so I may be way off base I admit. I have one as well that I hope to use in a car conversion someday. Someday just keeps getting pushed back though. The EV100 has many configurations though so first you need to figure out exactly what you have. The basic controller will handle 24-84 nominal volts. Mine has a multi-voltage (24-80volt) card, but others have single voltage control cards. even then, you can just replace the control card. The controllers are antiquated tech, granted, but they are durable with a proven track record, good support, pretty simple and parts are replaceable if you do wreck something. the EV100 has 24v control for the contactors, so you you can still use those in your higher voltage system. Look up Flight systems (FSIP). They are the premier resource for the EV100. They should have manuals with system wiring diagrams to show you how to wire the controller into a working system. Your motor can probably take 72 volts as well so you'll be set. Good luck.


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## DaveyG (Apr 9, 2013)

Is an Alltrax DCX400R7 controller any good? Better than the Chinese eBay Curtis P125M? Which is easier for a newb to hook up and use?


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## DaveyG (Apr 9, 2013)

Well looks like I'm back to the idea of building this as a bike. Got a deal that was too good to pass up on a 1993 Kawasaki Ninja 600 with a good frame, suspension, tires, brakes, but super low compression on one cylinder. Bike has the aluminum twin spar frame and aluminum subframe. Should be a good candidate for my motor. Now just need to decide what to do for controller. I still have all of the GE-100 control parts but would prefer something more self-contained like the Curtis P125M. Also now looking at battery options more seriously. I could get 48v from either a cell pack from a Volt or from 8 cells from a Prius... Li-Ion vs Ni-MH which will be better for a newb to work with?


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## Karter2 (Nov 17, 2011)

Forget the Prius cells.
Those "cells" (7.2v) are infact a 6s group of 1.2v cells, each 6.5 Ah.
But the real issue is, if you want any more capacity in the pack by paralleling cells, it becomes very tricky, even dangerous, when charging with high risk of cell reversal and consequent thermal events.
So your 48v pack would only be 0.3 kWh !
...Oh yes, and they are double the weight of lithium for any given capacity. Not what you want on a bike.


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## DaveyG (Apr 9, 2013)

Good to know. So sounds like the Volt battery pack is the way to go for me then. Thanks for the input. Anything I should watch out for with the Volt setup?


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## DaveyG (Apr 9, 2013)

Well I got the bike stripped down to pretty much just a rolling chassis. I'm really excited to get some progress down on it! I'm gonna copy the original tank top half in fiberglass but keep it as stripped down as possible, go for a kinda solo street fighter look, not too worried about aerodynamics since it'll be a 40mph top speed commuter. Got pretty much all the bike parts on eBay to try and offset the cost of a better controller (thinking of going with the Curtis unless someone jumps in and suggests otherwise) just because my electrical engineering knowledge is not that great, so I figure the closer it is to plug n play the better.
https://ibb.co/iyLCgk
And hoping to finish with it looking kinda like this, but with my forklift motor in place of the ICE
https://ibb.co/mRuuu5


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## DaveyG (Apr 9, 2013)




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## DaveyG (Apr 9, 2013)

Testing new image hosting site


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## DaveyG (Apr 9, 2013)

Well if you click on the link you'll see the pics. Anybody got a hosting site preference for image hosting now that Photobucket changed their policy?


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## Functional Artist (Aug 8, 2016)

Have you looked at Kelly Controllers?

Here is an example ~$150.00

http://kellycontroller.com/kdz2420012v-24v200aseriespm-p-939.html


I just built an electric bike using a Manta motor & Kelly controller

Check it out 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bkLXnjOEB7Q&list=PLoL6eIYWPO_nZYYAumnkE7RowDoBCsuCh


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## DaveyG (Apr 9, 2013)

I'm not opposed to other controller options. Which one should I go with for my motor (brushed) and power goals (48v) this one?
http://kellycontroller.com/kls6022h24v-60v220asealed-sinusoidal-wave-bldc-motor-controll-p-1472.html


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## Functional Artist (Aug 8, 2016)

I am not familiar with that style (Sinusoidal Wave)

I am familiar with this style & I know it's for a PM brushed motor

This one is for 24V - 36V - or - 48V (it can handle from 24V to 48V battery/ motor systems)

Which means, you can set it up @ 24V then later, reconfigure to 36V then later, (if you want) reconfigure again up to 48V

http://kellycontroller.com/kdz4820024v-48v200aseriespm-p-951.html

The description even mentions "for fork lift motors"

...& it's programmable (you can make adjustments)

...I'm not sure if the Sinusoidal type is programmable & the specs do not mention "for fork lift motors"


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## DaveyG (Apr 9, 2013)

Very cool, that's the one for me then. In spite of the thread title I've decided to just go ahead and start out with 48v I think. So that controller has two ports that are like 8-pin is one for a throttle potentiometer or something?


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## Functional Artist (Aug 8, 2016)

There are (3) big bars that connect the battery's & motor.

The (2) 8-pin connectors connect everything else.

on/off, throttle, brake interruption

Here is a diagram

The (2) boxes in bottom left represent the 8-pin connectors.


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## DaveyG (Apr 9, 2013)

Oh perfect! That wiring diagram sums it up for me. And what is the main benefit of the Kelly vs the Curtis? Just cost savings?


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## Functional Artist (Aug 8, 2016)

I don't know anything about Curtis controllers.

When I was doing research, Alltrax & Curtis controllers were popular but mostly like over $500.00

TBH - I don't know if I would have proceeded with my project if I had to fork over $500 just for the speed controller.

A super smart guy named Sid on DIYGK (do it yourself go karts) told me about Kelly Controllers.

They had all of the bells & whistles as the others but, a HUGE price difference.

Here is more valuable info, you should know

http://www.alltraxinc.com/files/Doc120-046-A_TN010-Contactor-Fuse-Diode-Lessons-Learned.pdf

Here is a link to my build thread

http://www.diygokarts.com/vb/showthread.php?t=37062


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## DaveyG (Apr 9, 2013)

Awesome. Those reasons sound good enough for me! I will definitely look into those some more!


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

I recommend that you avoid Kelly controllers and cheap Chinese imports. 

My 2 cents,

major


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## DaveyG (Apr 9, 2013)

Would a Curtis 1206HB-5201 work for my application you think Major? 48v and I think 400A.


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## DaveyG (Apr 9, 2013)

major said:


> I recommend that you avoid Kelly controllers and cheap Chinese imports.
> 
> My 2 cents,
> 
> major


Or would a Curtis 1227-4107 be better for my purposes? It's 48v 100A thanks!


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

DaveyG said:


> Would a Curtis 1206HB-5201 work for my application you think Major? 48v and I think 400A.


Hi,

I just chimed in to warn you about Kelly. I'm sure the other fellow meant well, but he's a noobie. I've seen a lot of folks burned with Kellys. I don't know your project. Certainly Curtis or Alltrax give you a much better chance of success. The 1206? Do you use a ITS? Maybe tried and true 1204 or 1205, or Alltrax to keep it simple.

Good luck,

major


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## Functional Artist (Aug 8, 2016)

major said:


> Hi,
> 
> I just chimed in to warn you about Kelly. I'm sure the other fellow meant well, but he's a noobie. I've seen a lot of folks burned with Kellys. I don't know your project. Certainly Curtis or Alltrax give you a much better chance of success. The 1206? Do you use a ITS? Maybe tried and true 1204 or 1205, or Alltrax to keep it simple.
> 
> ...


 
I am interested in any/all info

I have the Kelly KDZ72550 controlling a 8,000W DC brushed motor:

*7.90" diameter / 7.75" length* 
*3/4" shaft with 3/16" keyway by 1 1/8" long (threaded center)* 
*Torque constant: 1.14 in-lb/Amp (0.13 Nm Per-Amp)* 
*72 RPM per volt input (3456rpm @ 48V / continuous duty)* 
*A put-up and forget design! Expect decades of dependable service life.* 
*Rain, ice and weather proof electronics.* 
*Heavy duty, long lasting graphite brushes (no controller needed)* 
*10 horsepower continuous duty at 48 volts.* 
*Works for both CW or CCW rotations. *_(over heat senor not functional on these models)_ 
*Epoxy/Lam rotor efficiency = 94%*_(Brushed motors convert more electricity into usable horsepower)_ 
*Weighs ONLY 35 lbs. !! / Dimensions - 8"X 11"X 11"* 
*Can be used as a generator, makes power when turned *(Requires 100 amp blocking diode) 

Could you please share info or links to these "folks burned with Kellys"

From the research I have done, here & else where, MOST controller failures are due to compatibility &/or instillation errors.


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

Functional Artist said:


> ...
> 
> Could you please share info or links to these "folks burned with Kellys"
> 
> From the research I have done, here & else where, MOST controller failures are due to compatibility &/or instillation errors.


https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=UWcPZBZl3lk

There are many posts and several threads on this very forum devoted to crappy Kellys. And even some postmortems. I've personally seen dozens of failed Kellys and been inside a few where workmanship was obvious.

Good luck with yours.

major


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