# [EVDL] Automatic Fire Suppression System



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Hi, all. The long thread on the SRJC fire reminded me of a post to the
S10-EV list by Jeff Thomas of EV Bones (retired). His business was servicing
and restoring the Chevy S-10 EVs, which were the predecessor and, in some
ways, the successors to the EV1. He's now out of the business, but still
graciously contributes to that list. He sent out this message 2 years ago
after having concerns about fires in those NiMH trucks. I redacted his phone
number because I'm not sure he wants to be contacted about this or other EV
matters.

I think the message has some strong opinions, evidence and conclusions about
fire safety in EVs. It shows that this issue applies to NiMH, as well as
lithium chemistries and can even affect OEM vehicles, which have much more
invested in safety engineering than most of our conversions.

The FireBottle part of the system is commercially available and the rest of
the message is regarding the interface with this specific vehicle, which
probably isn't of much interest to most on this list - any other vehicle
would need it's own sensors and relays to trigger the system. If you have
batteries that are in the passenger compartment, you probably don't want
this system, but then again, you've already got a serious safety problem to
deal with.

I agree that thermal fuses go a long way toward saving many of us from
ourselves, but I'm not totally convinced that a thermal runaway scenario
isn't still possible if a single defective battery ends up in a series
string of otherwise perfectly good LiFePO4 cells. In that hypothetical case,
an active fire suppression system may be the only the only thing that can
save an unattended, charging vehicle and the structure it is in. Especially
worrisome if it is one's home.

I just bought over 104 x 100Ah LiFePO4s (China Hi-Power) to replace the dead
lead-acid modules in my EV and it only takes a reminder like this fire every
month or so to more seriously consider putting my faith in something more
than a well-intentioned, even redundant, BMS.

Cheers,
ian

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Jeff Thomas <[email protected]>
Date: Fri, Apr 3, 2009 at 2:40 PM
Subject: [S10-EV] Automatic Fire Suppression System is available now for
NiMH battery S-10 trucks
To: [email protected]


I'll begin this announcement with an update to all NiMH truck owners
regarding GM's response to the vehicle fires that have occurred while
charging.

Although GM had been approached in a friendly manner with with a desperate
request for immediate assistance, their response has continued to be
entirely defensive.
Reports sequencing the events leading to the fires has been carefully
composed and provided to GM, detailing how a NiMH cell mechanical failure
can be undetected during the ending charge cycle, resulting in subsequent
fire. Understandably, the GM engineers could not have anticipated this
particular type of mechanical cell defect surfacing ten years ago when the
Battery Pack Control Module software was written. GM did revisit that
software program later on to institute a "trap" for this type of defect in
both the driving discharge cycle, and the bulk (high power) charging modes.
Unfortunately the lowest power charging and leveling modes are unable to
trap for this defect. And unfortunately this is when a fire can occur.

All communication I have had with GM investigators and their management has
been forwarded on to NHTSA for review and investigation. Federal
governmental monitoring agencies are often slow to respond, as we all
understand. And many NiMH S-10EV owners have continued to drive their
vehicles in spite of the extreme danger of a fire occurring during the
charging cycle.

Rather than wait for NHTSA, already two separate approaches to an "owner
initiated" type resolution have been devised. One is available now.

Resolution part 1 *not ready*
#1 is a software based small electronics module, attached to the ALDL
vehicle communication port bus to query individual battery voltages and
temperatures during the charging cycle. The device will continuously monitor
battery voltages, using an intelligent trap algorithm to abort vehicle
charging in the event of a validated module voltage excursion. A secondary
program feature will include the ability to abort charging in the event that
the battery pack cooling system is operational yet ineffective. This
secondary function is to address an already known software bug in the
vehicles Battery Pack Control Module programming.

S-10EV owners Paul Peavyhouse and Gil Dawson deserve a big applause for
their collective efforts in the hundreds of hours spent developing both the
programming and ALDL bus interface specifications necessary to implement
this system. This has been a volunteer effort to help all of you.
Resolution part #1 is not yet ready for distribution as of this
announcement. Completion is anticipated within the next 60 days.
Installation can be completed by the owner. This hardware/software module
system is not considered a complete standalone solution. And this leads us
to resolution part 2.

Resolution part 2 *ready now*
#2 is an automatic fire suppression system comprised of a 10# bottle of
Dupont FE36 that is electrically activated using a network of temperature
sensors inside the S-10EV battery box. Dupont FE36 information link:
http://www2.dupont.com/FE/en_US/products/fe36.html
The suppression system discharges the FE36 into the upper and lower decks at
the rear of the battery box after any one of the embedded sensors detect
temperatures exceeding 170 degrees F. Concurrent with the pyrotechnic
triggered suppression system activation, the vehicle charging system is shut
down and high voltage contactors are disconnected for safety.

The fire suppression system installation requires removal of the battery
pack to install the activation temperature sensor network, and the discharge
manifold necessary to dispense the FE36 suppressant. Detailed installation
instructions will be provided with each system if the owner elects to
perform the suppression system installation themselves.

The pyrotechnic triggered FE36 suppression system is available as a nearly
complete package directly from Firebottle Inc (the manufacturer). I have
negotiated a wholesale pricing agreement with the manufacturer, allowing for
individual system sales at a considerable discount. You must order this
yourself. I cannot sell this part of the system. Ordering info:
Part Number YRC-1000E-1, Description: 10# electrical, Price: $534.67
Shipping cost via UPS ground is additional.

Fire Bottle Inc.
1529 Laurel Drive
North Fort Myers, FL 33917
Ordering tel # (239) 995-6300
Reference either the price above or "Resonant Instruments" volume discount.

In addition to the Fire Bottle system, you will also need the system
activation and vehicle shutdown kit. This kit contains the temperature
sensors, activation power source, latching relay, and all necessary wiring
and connectors to complete the system installation. Your estimated
installation time for the complete system is 6-8hrs. The activation kit
price is $150.00 + shipping and is available from me by telephone. The kit
also includes detailed system installation instructions. Please
call [redacted] to order using Visa or MC.

If you are unable to install the suppression system yourself in a timely
manner, I will also offer to sell the complete suppression system package
with an installation service. The price for the complete system including
all parts with installation service is $1250.00. Or, $500.00 installation
labor alone, excluding all vehicle transport costs.


Please call if you wish to schedule an installation, order the activation
kit, or have questions about performing the installation yourself.


Regards, Jeff Thomas tel [redacted]





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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

After re-reading the FireBottle website, I was mistaken - you can have these
discharge in the passenger compartment - in fact, they recommend it.
The DuPont FE-36 (halon replacement) is apparently safe for people, though I
guess you could say that even a semi-toxic suppressant may be safer than a
raging fire...

- ian



> Ian Ward <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> > Hi, all. The long thread on the SRJC fire reminded me of a post to the
> > S10-EV list by Jeff Thomas of EV Bones (retired). His business was servicing
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Is there really any type of fire extinguisher that will stop a battery fire?

A battery fire is not really a fire, it's a plasma ball with lots of energy 
available to feed it.
I would imagine that one could dump just about anything on it and it would 
have no effect.
Maybe super cooling it with a "freeze" spray? Or, with lead acid batteries, 
a strong liquid base?

I think everyone with an EV should know what works and have it available.

Al

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