# Feroza EV conversion



## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

rfletch said:


> *Challenges*
> ...
> Speedo without a gearbox (local regulations do not permit a GPS Speedo),


That one is relatively easy. There are aftermarket electronic speedometers which just need a sensor picking up pulses from a rotating shaft, which can be one of the axle shafts, a motor, or even the intermediate shaft in one of the gear reduction boxes; the pulses can result from placing the pickup near a gear, so you don't even need to add a toothed wheel for the sensor. It doesn't matter if the reduction gearboxes don't have a traditional speedometer drive gear.


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## rfletch (Mar 2, 2020)

Thank you Brian, I was thinking of something like that. I want to keep the original speedo, so the current idea is to use a pulse sensor signal fed to an Arduino, which in turn controls the speed of a little motor that spins the speedo. Another idea is to use the pulses to drive a tachometer (I have a second one in a doner car) and fit it behind the speedo display.


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

rfletch said:


> I want to keep the original speedo, so the current idea is to use a pulse sensor signal fed to an Arduino, which in turn controls the speed of a little motor that spins the speedo.


That should work  I think there are commercial products that do the same thing.



rfletch said:


> Another idea is to use the pulses to drive a tachometer (I have a second one in a doner car) and fit it behind the speedo display.


Unfortunately tachs don't have much calibration flexibility (they are generally expecting only 2, 3, or 4 pulses per revolution, for 4, 6, or 8 cylinders), but other than that it works.


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## rfletch (Mar 2, 2020)

The fun begins....

I have recently moved the car into the garage, weighed it and put it up on some homemade stands with casters so that it can be moved. As usual, there were a few teething problems with the stands but once in position, they worked surprisingly well, making it very easy to move.










I weighed the front and rear axle weights so that I could get the original weight distribution. To my surprise, the rear axle load was heavier at 672 kg, while the front axle load was 641 kg, giving a total of 1313 kg. To pass an engineering inspection I keeping weight distribution is as close as possible original. I also plan to keep the weight low to the ground by installing the batteries in the transmission tunnel. I also plan to make the battery boxes upside down with the lid as a base and the box inverted on this. This way they should act as a diving bell and be fully submersible, but more on that later.

The next step is to remove all the dirty bits to do with the ICT. I'm looking forward to that


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

rfletch said:


> I weighed the front and rear axle weights so that I could get the original weight distribution. To my surprise, the rear axle load was heavier at 672 kg, while the front axle load was 641 kg, giving a total of 1313 kg.


That is surprising for any front-engine vehicle, but the wheelbase is really short and the front axle appears to be set forward relative to the engine, possibly explaining the distribution.


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

rfletch said:


> Battery pack - 1P48S, 200Ah LiFePO4 ~30kWh


A typical 200 Ah LiFePO4 cell is 182 mm by 71mm by 275mm, or 3.6 litres in volume (and 5.7 kg). So 48 of them will total over 170 litres (and 274 kg), plus space for structure and wiring. That's okay for a 30 kWh battery.



rfletch said:


> I also plan to keep the weight low to the ground by installing the batteries in the transmission tunnel.


I realize that the transmission tunnel is large for the size of the vehicle, due to the bulky transmission with transfer case, but it should be nowhere near as large as the volume of the cells (perhaps half as much, and oddly shaped instead of a tidy rectangular box). Presumably some of the battery pack will go elsewhere, with only some in the transmission tunnel.


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## rfletch (Mar 2, 2020)

brian_ said:


> That is surprising for any front-engine vehicle, but the wheelbase is really short and the front axle appears to be set forward relative to the engine, possibly explaining the distribution.


Yes, this is right. It surprised me too at first but considering the position of the front wheel, all the way forward, and the back wheel with overhang, it does make sense.



> I realize that the transmission tunnel is large for the size of the vehicle, due to the bulky transmission with transfer case, but it should be nowhere near as large as the volume of the cells (perhaps half as much, and oddly shaped instead of a tidy rectangular box).


As luck would have it, the transmission tunnel is like a rectangular box and it's quite wide and deep. It was a very pleasant surprise when I stuck my head under there. I will fit what I can and work out the rest at a later stage


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## Sharryn (Nov 14, 2021)

rfletch said:


> Hi all,
> 
> I'm starting a new project. It is a 1996 Daihatsu Feroza (Rocky in some countries). I originally bought this car as an ICE project but a TV program staring an electric drag car appealed to both my "green" side and the desire to make the car go fast, at least faster than with the little 70kW 1.6L ICE engine. A little further digging and I was sold. My research has led me to the following design options;
> 
> ...


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## paulheystee (11 mo ago)

rfletch said:


> Daihatsu Feroza (Rocky in some countries)


for your info: the Rocky is a different beast. We are building EV Rocky's with Nissan Leaf hardware. It works really well.


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## jonfen (7 mo ago)

paulheystee said:


> for your info: the Rocky is a different beast. We are building EV Rocky's with Nissan Leaf hardware. It works really well.


Please post your build!


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## paulheystee (11 mo ago)

jonfen said:


> Please post your build!


Here some pictures of the Rocky.















We simply bolted the the Leaf motor (plus inverter and PDM) to the Rocky gearbox and used original engine mountings.
The Leaf battery was split and lives where the tank and exhaust lived.
It even has fast charging.


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## jonfen (7 mo ago)

What did your range end up being?



paulheystee said:


> Here some pictures of the Rocky.
> View attachment 130568
> View attachment 130569
> 
> ...


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## paulheystee (11 mo ago)

jonfen said:


> What did your range end up being?


With the 24 kWh @ 80% SOH and 80% SOC we get about 78 kms. I calculated roughly 240 W/km, normal driving


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## Halge Electric (6 mo ago)

@rfletch Did you make any progress on your Feroza EV project?


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## remy_martian (Feb 4, 2019)

paulheystee said:


> With the 24 kWh @ 80% SOH and 80% SOC we get about 78 kms. I calculated roughly 240 W/km, normal driving


I'm curious as to what RPM you're limiting the Leaf motor to?


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## paulheystee (11 mo ago)

Hi,
The same as original 10.000 rpm, as is done by the EV-Resolve controller


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## paulheystee (11 mo ago)

Halge Electric said:


> @rfletch Did you make any progress on your Feroza EV project?


I am working on two Rocky-s, my friend happens to be the biggest used spare parts dealer in Europe for Rocky.
Together with him I am building the EV conversions. One for hunting (40 kWh bat) and one for local driving (24 kWh batt)


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## remy_martian (Feb 4, 2019)

paulheystee said:


> Hi,
> The same as original 10.000 rpm, as is done by the EV-Resolve controller


So you rev your setup to 10,000 rpm?


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## paulheystee (11 mo ago)

remy_martian said:


> So you rev your setup to 10,000 rpm?


Yes, but only at high speeds. We drive permanently in 3rd gear and very rarely drive 140 km/h so in reality it will almost never see 10.000 rpm. No point in going faster than 90 km/h as it will substancially use more amps./power


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## remy_martian (Feb 4, 2019)

This is like pulling teeth.

What RPM does it run at in 3rd gear at 90km/h? 

What current is being drawn?


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## paulheystee (11 mo ago)

The gearbox is strong enough, besides the Leaf motor is not stronger than the original Diesel engine.

Regardless of which gear is selected, the motor pulls 80 amps at 80 km/h


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## remy_martian (Feb 4, 2019)

What RPM does it run at in 3rd gear at 90km/h?


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## paulheystee (11 mo ago)

remy_martian said:


> What RPM does it run at in 3rd gear at 90km/h?


I don't know exactly, I need to check the ratios. In the end I calculated to get the same final ratio as the Leaf (to the wheel). It ended up to being the 3rd on the Rocky gearbox ( times transfer ratio and diff ratio)
However, it drives well in all gears.

The 4fth gear is 'price directe' 1:1, so it would be possible to eliminate the main gearbox all together and drive the transfer box directly, gaining efficiency.


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## remy_martian (Feb 4, 2019)

Not interested in calculated, but actual running RPM as you regularly operate the vehicle. That info would be useful to people here.

As would knowing the RPM you change gears at...it's not 10,000 RPM.


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## paulheystee (11 mo ago)

remy_martian said:


> Not interested in calculated, but actual running RPM as you regularly operate the vehicle. That info would be useful to people here.
> 
> As would knowing the RPM you change gears at...it's not 10,000 RPM.


I do not change gears, I run it in 3rd all the time, from 0 km/h to 140 km/h, so I guess the rpm will be roughly 6.500 rpm when doing 90 km/h (10.000 / 140)*90


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## rfletch (Mar 2, 2020)

How to delete


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## rfletch (Mar 2, 2020)

Halge Electric said:


> @rfletch Did you make any progress on your Feroza EV project?


I have stripped her down, removing the fuel tank engine, gearbox and transfer case. In doing so I lost 64 kg from the rear axle and 229 kg from the front axle. Based on the components I will add, the vehicle will only be ~60 kg heavier. I have also designed the speed reducer. I was unable to source a single-speed gearbox that would handle the power of the motors and in my research, I was led toward using a belt system with timing pulleys. They should be quiet and super efficient.

At the present time, the project has ground to a halt as I wait for the preferred motor to become available and I prioritise other house projects, but that's okay because I bought a Model 3 instead. It's awesome


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## Halge Electric (6 mo ago)

paulheystee said:


> I am working on two Rocky-s, my friend happens to be the biggest used spare parts dealer in Europe for Rocky.
> Together with him I am building the EV conversions. One for hunting (40 kWh bat) and one for local driving (24 kWh batt)


Been to Luttelgeest last week and drove the RockE. Need to do the maths if it would make any sense to convert our Baby. Like the idea of keeping the gearboxes but would also like to keep the clutch.


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## paulheystee (11 mo ago)

Hi,
Keeping the clutch will cost an other 500 to 800 euro due to the additional complex machining required.
In practice changing gears while driving it not needed in 95% of the time. I am not sure if the extra costs of the modified flywheel and clutch setup justifies that.


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## remy_martian (Feb 4, 2019)

To clarify, you CAN change gears with an electric conversion without the presence of a clutch, though it would be rarely needed to do so on the go.


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## paulheystee (11 mo ago)

yes, up shift works, down shift is harder.
We drive it in 3rd all the time and I think shifting is not needed at all


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## remy_martian (Feb 4, 2019)

For a low/marginal horsepower build, a gearbox might be essential in trading off speed for torque to climb a grade without smoking the motor windings.


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## Halge Electric (6 mo ago)

paulheystee said:


> Hi,
> Keeping the clutch will cost an other 500 to 800 euro due to the additional complex machining required.
> In practice changing gears while driving it not needed in 95% of the time. I am not sure if the extra costs of the modified flywheel and clutch setup justifies that.


I guess that's worth the money. I would like to have the same driving experience. 
Think high revs on the gearbox isn't good for its lifetime either...


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## remy_martian (Feb 4, 2019)

There's no compression braking in an electric motor. There is regen, but that's an extreme slowdown compared to an ICE if you let off on throttle.

It's not even close to the same experience as an ICE and is one that can toast syncros unless you rev match your shifts. Incorrectly mounted flywheels and clutches can toast motor bearings. 

Some, like @Duncan do shift their cars - they are welcome to counter what I'm writing here, but most people keep the clutch disc for an "easier" coupling to the motor, but only shift the transmission once into 2nd or 3rd and leave it there, even for reverse in brushless cars.


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## Halge Electric (6 mo ago)

remy_martian said:


> There's no compression braking in an electric motor. There is regen, but that's an extreme slowdown compared to an ICE if you let off on throttle.
> 
> It's not even close to the same experience as an ICE and is one that can toast syncros unless you rev match your shifts. Incorrectly mounted flywheels and clutches can toast motor bearings.
> 
> Some, like @Duncan do shift their cars - they are welcome to counter what I'm writing here, but most people keep the clutch disc for an "easier" coupling to the motor, but only shift the transmission once into 2nd or 3rd and leave it there, even for reverse in brushless cars.


Thanks Remy for your view on this topic. 
I didn't own an EV before but I can't imagine that from a efficiency point of view it doesn't matter in which gear I'm driving??? Highway in 2nd or 30 mph in 5th...
I understand that I can shift gears (while driving without clutch) but I don't see my wife doing that


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## remy_martian (Feb 4, 2019)

It doesn't make a whole lot of difference in the grand scheme of outside air temperature, tires, a rear axle ring & pinion swimming in 90W oil, the brick you are pushing through the air. You might shift gears to pick up 5%...an extra 8 miles in a typical conversion, but slowing down by 10mph could get you double that. 

A purist would argue that a sports car has to have a stick, but it also has to regularly break down and leak oil everywhere 😂

If you want a fun driving experience (don't get me wrong, I cut my teeth on a three in the tree manual trans Ford), build in regen and "single pedal" driving.


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