# [EVDL] Flywheel Balance?



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Technical question for someone who knows more about car mechanics than 
I...

The other day, I (finally) mounted the adapter hub & flywheel to my 
motor, along with a new clutch and pressure plate.
Car: Porsche 914
Motor: ADC 9"
Adapter Hub: ElectroAuto (VoltsPorsche)

When I spun the assembly up on a 12V battery, I noticed that the 
entire motor assembly was vibrating somewhat; clearly something is not 
perfectly balanced. So, I pulled off the pressure plate and checked 
again: still doing it, but slightly less (probably because there's 
less rotating mass). I then checked flywheel runout; it's within spec 
for my car (but only just) at 0.010" (vs. 0.012" max). The vibration 
does not seem to be severe, but I'm worried about it being noticeable 
during driving or possibly wrecking the bearings on my motor. I don't 
have a good way to measure RPM a the moment either, so I also can't 
say if this is as bad as it will get or if it will be worse at high 
speeds.

Is some amount of vibration expected/normal? Do I have to replace the 
flywheel (which could have been messed up when I had it resurfaced)? 
If so, before I outlay the money (and effort -- getting the flywheel 
off is going to SUCK because ElectroAuto's instructions had me put it 
on with red loctite), is there a way to make sure the problem isn't in 
the adaptor hub or the hub's mounting?

Thanks in advance!
-Ben

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

If you can have the flywheel and pressure plate balanced as a unit. Mark the
position of the pressure plate so it will only go on one way. You could even
have dowel pins installed before you have it balanced. That way it will
remain in balance. My motor has a slight shake too but not noticed during
driving at any speed. I too have a VW so have it balanced. 

Pete 

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Hi Ben!;

Long time, no see? Where ya been? Anyhow. Welcome back! Ya know, 
SOMETIMES flywheels are balanced ON the engine that they were born for? 
Sooo, IF ya run it without the other balanced stuff, it'll have a runout, or 
vibrate?Without the flywheel, doesn't the motor run smooth, say at 12-24 
volts? Of course don't go crazy, IF you go TOO high voltage it could run 
away?"'Splode" to quote a forgotten poster years ago?

Seeya

Bob
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Ben Apollonio" <[email protected]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, April 02, 2010 11:51 PM
Subject: [EVDL] Flywheel Balance?


> Technical question for someone who knows more about car mechanics than
> I...
>
> The other day, I (finally) mounted the adapter hub & flywheel to my
> motor, along with a new clutch and pressure plate.
> Car: Porsche 914
> Motor: ADC 9"
> Adapter Hub: ElectroAuto (VoltsPorsche)
>
> When I spun the assembly up on a 12V battery, I noticed that the
> entire motor assembly was vibrating somewhat; clearly something is not
> perfectly balanced. So, I pulled off the pressure plate and checked
> again: still doing it, but slightly less (probably because there's
> less rotating mass). I then checked flywheel runout; it's within spec
> for my car (but only just) at 0.010" (vs. 0.012" max). The vibration
> does not seem to be severe, but I'm worried about it being noticeable
> during driving or possibly wrecking the bearings on my motor. I don't
> have a good way to measure RPM a the moment either, so I also can't
> say if this is as bad as it will get or if it will be worse at high
> speeds.
>
> Is some amount of vibration expected/normal? Do I have to replace the
> flywheel (which could have been messed up when I had it resurfaced)?
> If so, before I outlay the money (and effort -- getting the flywheel
> off is going to SUCK because ElectroAuto's instructions had me put it
> on with red loctite), is there a way to make sure the problem isn't in
> the adaptor hub or the hub's mounting?
>
> Thanks in advance!
> -Ben
>
> _______________________________________________
> General support: http://evdl.org/help/
> Unsubscribe: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
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> Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
> 

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Several good replies to this question already, I was wondering since you
are using a flywheel, clutch disk, and pressure plate, how did you locate
the clutch disk ? as it "Floats" in the center held in by the pressure of
the pressure plate holding it against the flywheel. If you connect the
transmission does the vibration "Go-away"? because the input shaft of the
transmission centers it better? The other thing you might try is remounting
the motor shaft adapter 180 degrees away from where you have it now and see
if the "Run-out" improves being out ten thousandths is enough to give a
noticeable vibration with a mass like the flywheel out there flopping on the
end of the shaft. Also, are there thicker areas in the flywheel to act as
a supplemental "Harmonic Balancer" ? Another trick I've used is to place
my old bowling ball on a smooth, clean, level section of floor, set the
flywheel on top with the center hole on the top center of the ball and let
go, if it isn't well balanced the heavier edge is attracted toward the floor
! (This for balancing car tires and wheels to...)*
*Regards,
Dennis Lee Miles (Director) E.V.T.I. inc.
www.E-V-T-I-Inc.COM
Phone (863) 944 - 9913
EV service mechs need training!
We want them to REALLY UNDERSTAND: EV Systems, Operation and Technology*
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++


> Ben Apollonio <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> > Technical question for someone who knows more about car mechanics than
> > I...
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

One more thing is that when you order a motor coupler and adapter plate, is 
to specific that you want guild pins holes install in the coupler which 
centers the flywheel on the coupler. The guild pins holes on the adapter 
plate that centers transmission bell housing on the adapter.

Look at your engine to see these guild pins. Just bolting on the coupler 
and flywheel, the bolts clearances in the bolt holes may range up to 0.003 
inches off from true center.

I had to take my coupler and adapter plate to a machine shop to locate and 
drill these guild pin holes. The guild pins should fit at about a press 
fit. You can also get offset guild pins that have a recess allen head that 
you can rotate and lock to get a lower reading of less than 0.001 inch to 
center.

Make sure that your flywheel is a internal balance flywheel, not a external 
balance type. The internal balance is design for a balance engine. The 
external balance flywheel balances the engine. My flywheel which is design 
for a later years after the 60's was a external balance type. So I use a 
forge 68 year flywheel that came for internal balance engines.

There should also be guild marks on the flywheel and pressure plate which is 
normally use on high performance vehicles. Here just using a standard 
thread bolt going through the hold of the pressure plate will not center 
you. You will note that in a high performance pressure plate, they use a 
shoulder bolt which also acts like a guild pins.

Now even after I got a balance coupler, flywheel and pressure plate, I had 
it spin balance at a electric motor shop which does both electric motor and 
engine balancing. They first spin the coupler on the motor shaft mark the 
taperlock bushing to be in the correct location in taperlock mounting ring.

Next they bolted on the flywheel with the ring gear in place. They said on 
this type of flywheel, it is use to reinforce the edge of the flywheel so do 
not remove it because this flywheel had already balance drills holes on the 
edge. You can get buy without a ring gear in some models if the flywheel 
has not been balance.

Next they install the pressure plate without the clutch and spin balance 
again. They ran up to 10,000 rpm at each stage. You would have to check 
your maximum motor rpm before having this done.

Another thing I did while I bought the 68 year flywheel, I found a early 
year 60's crankshaft from a junk year that was store in a safe type vault 
room. These cranks are forge and balance, not cast and are becoming rare. I 
had the machine shop cut off the flange at the right length and bore it for 
a taper lock bushing to make a new coupler for my GE traction motor.

Roland


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Dennis Miles" <[email protected]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, April 02, 2010 10:13 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Flywheel Balance?


> *Several good replies to this question already, I was wondering since you
> are using a flywheel, clutch disk, and pressure plate, how did you locate
> the clutch disk ? as it "Floats" in the center held in by the pressure of
> the pressure plate holding it against the flywheel. If you connect the
> transmission does the vibration "Go-away"? because the input shaft of the
> transmission centers it better? The other thing you might try is 
> remounting
> the motor shaft adapter 180 degrees away from where you have it now and 
> see
> if the "Run-out" improves being out ten thousandths is enough to give a
> noticeable vibration with a mass like the flywheel out there flopping on 
> the
> end of the shaft. Also, are there thicker areas in the flywheel to act as
> a supplemental "Harmonic Balancer" ? Another trick I've used is to place
> my old bowling ball on a smooth, clean, level section of floor, set the
> flywheel on top with the center hole on the top center of the ball and let
> go, if it isn't well balanced the heavier edge is attracted toward the 
> floor
> ! (This for balancing car tires and wheels to...)*
> *Regards,
> Dennis Lee Miles (Director) E.V.T.I. inc.
> www.E-V-T-I-Inc.COM
> Phone (863) 944 - 9913
> EV service mechs need training!
> We want them to REALLY UNDERSTAND: EV Systems, Operation and Technology*
> ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
>


> Ben Apollonio <[email protected]> wrote:
> >
> > > Technical question for someone who knows more about car mechanics than
> > > I...
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Some engines are internally balanced, some externally balanced. Internally
means that the crank, balancer and flywheel are each balanced and then
combined. Externally means that the crank is purposely out of balance and
the damper and flywheel are then the opposite balance to even it all out.

You probably have an external balance flywheel. The process would be to have
the flywheel balanced by itself and then the pressure plate attached and the
balance be done to the pressure plate (the pressure plate should be already
balanced to within spec if new but a good machine shop will get it even
better)

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf
Of Dennis Miles
Sent: Saturday, April 03, 2010 1:13 AM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Flywheel Balance?

*Several good replies to this question already, I was wondering since you
are using a flywheel, clutch disk, and pressure plate, how did you locate
the clutch disk ? as it "Floats" in the center held in by the pressure of
the pressure plate holding it against the flywheel. If you connect the
transmission does the vibration "Go-away"? because the input shaft of the
transmission centers it better? The other thing you might try is remounting
the motor shaft adapter 180 degrees away from where you have it now and see
if the "Run-out" improves being out ten thousandths is enough to give a
noticeable vibration with a mass like the flywheel out there flopping on the
end of the shaft. Also, are there thicker areas in the flywheel to act as
a supplemental "Harmonic Balancer" ? Another trick I've used is to place
my old bowling ball on a smooth, clean, level section of floor, set the
flywheel on top with the center hole on the top center of the ball and let
go, if it isn't well balanced the heavier edge is attracted toward the floor
! (This for balancing car tires and wheels to...)*
*Regards,
Dennis Lee Miles (Director) E.V.T.I. inc.
www.E-V-T-I-Inc.COM
Phone (863) 944 - 9913
EV service mechs need training!
We want them to REALLY UNDERSTAND: EV Systems, Operation and Technology*
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++


> Ben Apollonio <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> > Technical question for someone who knows more about car mechanics than
> > I...
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Given that it's already built and locktited together, it may be more 
expedient to find a way to balance it as assembled.

You can run the motor with the transmission removed (or with the motor 
assembly removed and sitting on a bench) with a 12v battery and jumper 
cables. If you can feel the vibration, try attaching a small weight 
(washer, etc.) at some point and see if it improves or worsens the 
vibration. By trial and error, find the right place and right amount of 
weight to minimize the vibration. Then lock it permanently in place 
(tack weld it, drill and tap a hole and screw it on, etc.)

-- 
Lee A. Hart | Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave N | Forget the perfect offering
Sartell MN 56377	| There is a crack in everything
leeahart earthlink.net	| That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Ben Apollonio wrote:
> 
> > When I spun the assembly up on a 12V battery, I noticed that the
> > entire motor assembly was vibrating somewhat; clearly something is not
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

One thing that I noticed when putting my truck together was that the vibration can come and go at different rpms. Since I have a 48 volt motorcycle I used it. I just unhooked the cables from the motor on my motorcycle and ran them to the motor for my truck instead. I tested it like Steve Clunn shows in his video. I assembled the whole thing including the transmission and secured it vertically in a makeshift jig. I was able to use the throttle on my motorcycle to test a whole range of rpms. I spent hours trying to get it as smooth as possible. I mostly used trial and error, by adding washers to the flywheel bolts or drilling indents in the flywheel. In the end I managed to get it pretty good, but there are still a couple of spots where I have some vibration. It's been on the road two years now and that little bit of vibration has not seemed to cause me any problems however. 



damon

> Date: Sat, 3 Apr 2010 11:16:54 -0500
> From: [email protected]
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Flywheel Balance?
> 
> Given that it's already built and locktited together, it may be more 
> expedient to find a way to balance it as assembled.
> 
> You can run the motor with the transmission removed (or with the motor 
> assembly removed and sitting on a bench) with a 12v battery and jumper 
> cables. If you can feel the vibration, try attaching a small weight 
> (washer, etc.) at some point and see if it improves or worsens the 
> vibration. By trial and error, find the right place and right amount of 
> weight to minimize the vibration. Then lock it permanently in place 
> (tack weld it, drill and tap a hole and screw it on, etc.)
> 
> -- 
> Lee A. Hart | Ring the bells that still can ring
> 814 8th Ave N | Forget the perfect offering
> Sartell MN 56377 | There is a crack in everything
> leeahart earthlink.net | That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
> 
> _______________________________________________
> General support: http://evdl.org/help/
> Unsubscribe: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
> Archive / Forum: http://evdl.org/archive/
> Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
> 

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Since it is a small vibration I would guess it is not an external
balanced flywheel.
The clutch disk is a problem to keep centered in this process, but I
have seen a few extra washers placed under clutch housing bolts to
finish off a balance.

I can tell you how I balanced a flywheel on a jeep one time: THe same
way I balance grinding wheels for surface grinders.
There was no clutch at all on this, just the flywheel.
I found a pin that fit snuggly in the center hole of the flywheel and
had set up two parallel metal rods above a surface plate (A large slab
of granite)
(I have done this on a concrete slab too.)
The two parallel bars are secured and shimmed level with a machine level
(flipping the level 180 degrees regularly to remove level cal error) and
level between them too.

Then the flywheel is placed on it and the heaviest side slowly rolls to
the bottom. We marked it with a sharpy and drilled a 1/4 hole just to
the drill point in the back.
Set it back up and rotate the wheel so the line is 90 degrees and let it
roll again.

Repeat until it won't roll no matter where you put it.

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

10,000 RPM! I was next to a VW flywheel that scattered at around 8,000 RPM 
during a bench test. Pieces went thru the roof, walls, windows and gouged-up 
the cement floor. Luckily no blood, but we all learned something about the 
limitations of stock flywheels. Use racing flywheels if you want to spin-up 
to 10 grand. Please Be Very Careful! We need all the EV Geeks we can get! 
Bob
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Roland Wiench" <[email protected]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Saturday, April 03, 2010 6:49 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Flywheel Balance?


> One more thing is that when you order a motor coupler and adapter plate, 
> is to specific that you want guild pins holes install in the coupler which 
> centers the flywheel on the coupler. The guild pins holes on the adapter 
> plate that centers transmission bell housing on the adapter.
>
> Look at your engine to see these guild pins. Just bolting on the coupler 
> and flywheel, the bolts clearances in the bolt holes may range up to 0.003 
> inches off from true center.
>
> I had to take my coupler and adapter plate to a machine shop to locate and 
> drill these guild pin holes. The guild pins should fit at about a press 
> fit. You can also get offset guild pins that have a recess allen head 
> that you can rotate and lock to get a lower reading of less than 0.001 
> inch to center.
>
> Make sure that your flywheel is a internal balance flywheel, not a 
> external balance type. The internal balance is design for a balance 
> engine. The external balance flywheel balances the engine. My flywheel 
> which is design for a later years after the 60's was a external balance 
> type. So I use a forge 68 year flywheel that came for internal balance 
> engines.
>
> There should also be guild marks on the flywheel and pressure plate which 
> is normally use on high performance vehicles. Here just using a standard 
> thread bolt going through the hold of the pressure plate will not center 
> you. You will note that in a high performance pressure plate, they use a 
> shoulder bolt which also acts like a guild pins.
>
> Now even after I got a balance coupler, flywheel and pressure plate, I had 
> it spin balance at a electric motor shop which does both electric motor 
> and engine balancing. They first spin the coupler on the motor shaft mark 
> the taperlock bushing to be in the correct location in taperlock mounting 
> ring.
>
> Next they bolted on the flywheel with the ring gear in place. They said 
> on this type of flywheel, it is use to reinforce the edge of the flywheel 
> so do not remove it because this flywheel had already balance drills holes 
> on the edge. You can get buy without a ring gear in some models if the 
> flywheel has not been balance.
>
> Next they install the pressure plate without the clutch and spin balance 
> again. They ran up to 10,000 rpm at each stage. You would have to check 
> your maximum motor rpm before having this done.
>
> Another thing I did while I bought the 68 year flywheel, I found a early 
> year 60's crankshaft from a junk year that was store in a safe type vault 
> room. These cranks are forge and balance, not cast and are becoming rare. 
> I had the machine shop cut off the flange at the right length and bore it 
> for a taper lock bushing to make a new coupler for my GE traction motor.
>
> Roland
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Dennis Miles" <[email protected]>
> To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
> Sent: Friday, April 02, 2010 10:13 PM
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Flywheel Balance?
>
>
>> *Several good replies to this question already, I was wondering since you
>> are using a flywheel, clutch disk, and pressure plate, how did you locate
>> the clutch disk ? as it "Floats" in the center held in by the pressure of
>> the pressure plate holding it against the flywheel. If you connect the
>> transmission does the vibration "Go-away"? because the input shaft of the
>> transmission centers it better? The other thing you might try is 
>> remounting
>> the motor shaft adapter 180 degrees away from where you have it now and 
>> see
>> if the "Run-out" improves being out ten thousandths is enough to give a
>> noticeable vibration with a mass like the flywheel out there flopping on 
>> the
>> end of the shaft. Also, are there thicker areas in the flywheel to act as
>> a supplemental "Harmonic Balancer" ? Another trick I've used is to 
>> place
>> my old bowling ball on a smooth, clean, level section of floor, set the
>> flywheel on top with the center hole on the top center of the ball and 
>> let
>> go, if it isn't well balanced the heavier edge is attracted toward the 
>> floor
>> ! (This for balancing car tires and wheels to...)*
>> *Regards,
>> Dennis Lee Miles (Director) E.V.T.I. inc.
>> www.E-V-T-I-Inc.COM
>> Phone (863) 944 - 9913
>> EV service mechs need training!
>> We want them to REALLY UNDERSTAND: EV Systems, Operation and Technology*
>> ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
>>


> Ben Apollonio <[email protected]> wrote:
> >>
> >> > Technical question for someone who knows more about car mechanics than
> >> > I...
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Bob Martin" <[email protected]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Sunday, April 04, 2010 11:39 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Flywheel Balance?


> 10,000 RPM! I was next to a VW flywheel that scattered at around 8,000 RPM
> during a bench test. Pieces went thru the roof, walls, windows and 
> gouged-up
> the cement floor. Luckily no blood, but we all learned something about the
> limitations of stock flywheels. Use racing flywheels if you want to 
> spin-up
> to 10 grand. Please Be Very Careful! We need all the EV Geeks we can get!
> Bob

The flywheel and pressure plate is a forge type, not cast. These units are 
balance in a enclose balancing machine.

I normally run this flywheel and pressure plate up to 6000 rpm in 1st and 
2nd for my daily driving. The bell housing is a approve certified steel 
forge with reinforcing sections up to 1/2 inch thick in some areas that is 
on a Warp 9 motor.

On the GE-11 motor, there is no flywheel, pressure plate and clutch, just a 
large flange motor coupler that is connected to a floating pump drive to a 
GM TH-400 which is converted to a manual shift. This unit can also be turn 
up to 6000 rpm which allows me to stay in one gear for all my town driving.

Roland 

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