# El Moto (electric motorcycle) upgrade to Lithium



## Functional Artist (Aug 8, 2016)

Moving right along

I added a small piece of angle steel (~9" x 1" x 1") to each end of the battery pack
...using the (2) bottom cooling channel bolts
…& mounted the battery pack onto the bike

Now, for getting it connected

I am going to "try" a 150A circuit breaker
...as a resettable "fuse" (for safety & (idea) possibly a "governor" to help me keep the Amp draw low'er)
...& as the main power cut-off switch (for maintenance & storage)

I mounted the circuit breaker into a plastic drill bit box (no "open terminals")
...it's even red, kinda matches the bike

I mounted a shunt (for the Amp/Volt meter) in another, matching box

& then 

I mounted both boxed (1 on each side, kinda like "mini saddle bags")
...using industrial Velcro (to lock them in place) 
...& a 36" heavy duty Zip-Tie (as a "safety strap")

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RJ2dwJVrsDM


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## Functional Artist (Aug 8, 2016)

The bike is so much lighter & easier to move now
…& I can't even see it (the "new" Volt battery) when sitting on the bike

She is all ready to go
...but, I haven't rode her yet (can't wait)
...been workin' on meters (to monitor "the battery")
…& searching for a "proper" charger

As for a charger
This 2kWh section of a Volt battery is 
...45V nominal/average (NOT 48V)
...the "safe" usable voltage range is 3.3V per cell (39.6V) to 4.1V per cell (49.2V)

So, a standard 48V battery charger with either a 50.4V or 54.6V (top charge setting)
...WILL NOT DO

I have been looking for a "smart" charger that can be preset to a 49V top charge

"That was an uphill battle"

I sent messages to Shauer (here in Ohio) & many, many others
...most couldn't help me 
(?REALLY don't you'all make/design/build battery chargers?)
...others just "sell" premade units

I finally found a few that said they could get preset chargers 

Like an 
ElCon 1,500 ($569.00+ shipping) @ EVwest
...but they were "ridiculously" expensive (more than the battery itself)
http://www.evwest.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=12&products_id=247

I found the same charger @ EVAssemble ($340.00 + shipping)
http://www.evassemble.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=3&products_id=17

...then, 

Michael @ EVAssemble messaged me back & told me about a "new" ElCon 1,800 ($225.00 + shipping)
http://evcomponents.com/elcon-tc-hk-h-1800w-charger.html

I messaged him back "I want one" 
...he asked about some battery pack details
...but, then I never heard back (like 5 weeks now)

I found the same ElCon 1,800 for the same ($225.00 + shipping) @ EVComponents
http://evcomponents.com/customized-chargers/elcon-tc-hk-h-1800w-charger.html
I messaged them, "I want one" 
...the same "Michael" guy answered & asked the same questions
...I gave him the same answers
…& haven't heard back from him (same guy) either

Then, I found this 15A Chevy Volt 12S Li-ion charger ($300.00 delivered)
https://www.ebay.com/itm/223038081042?ul_noapp=true

In the specifications it says:

"Voltage can be lowered to a lower number if you do not wish to charge your battery full"

...yes, that's what were looking for

From fellow forum member, greentecautohybredspecialists

…& they even return messages


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## Functional Artist (Aug 8, 2016)

Been thinkin' & workin' on the "Tri-Quad" meter(s)
...a unit that has (3) separate gauges, that provide (4) different readings 

The Tri-Quad (less than $25.00) uses an Amp/Volt meter (~$15.00 delivered) to monitor the power consumption & battery pack capacity 
https://www.ebay.com/itm/DC-300V-500...72.m2749.l2649
(Amp: displays the amperage drawn by the motor & Voltage: displays the "total" battery pack voltage)
…& (2) individual Volt meters (~$3.00 ea. delivered) is to monitor the balance of the battery pack 
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Mini-DC-5-...var=421674045396&_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649
(One will display the voltage reading of 1/2 of the battery pack & the other will display the voltage reading in the other 1/2) 

* As long as they both show the same reading, the battery is/should be "in balance" or "balanced"

I "really" wanted the Amp/Volt meter on top (to show total capacity)
…& the (2) 1/2 pack meters next to each other (to show the voltage of the left 1/2 & the right 1/2)

But they are (~1" tall x 2" wide) 
...so (2) of them, side by side is ~4"

Now, the "hard part" is to try-n-fit 'em into where a 3" gauge used to go (old RPM gauge)

My buddy "Jim" @ Homers Cycle Shop gave me a couple of "make-it-yourself" gauge options, to try 

First one looks like the back or cup for some kind of gauge
Second one looks like a chrome cover of some kind
Third is a non-functioning motorcycle speedometer (to gut, if necessary)
...or I could even "gut" the charge meter that's on the bike now

But, nuthin's big enough

Well, if we can't do side by side
…& square isn't co-operating either 

How about stackin' 'em 
...that would be (~2" wide x ~3" tall)


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## Functional Artist (Aug 8, 2016)

Got a piece of "ribbed" black plastic (from the back cover off of an old TV)
...did some markin', drillin', cuttin' & smoothin'

Gauges fit nicely

I also drilled holes for (2) 3/16" x 3 1/2" nuts & bolts 
(to attach the gauge face plate to/thru the cup & also to attach the "Tri-Quad" to the bike)

Tried it on the bike
...needed a little trimmin' (to clear the turn signal indicator & the key switch)


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## Functional Artist (Aug 8, 2016)

Then I had to figure a way to secure the (3) meters in place...onto the face plate
(there are "spring tabs", for mounting but, they are only on the top & bottom of the meters)

So, 
Only the top "tab" of the top meter & the bottom "tab" of the bottom meter "actually" engage the faceplate
...the others only engage each other (which doesn't provide much support)

Pot 
...I'll pot/glue 'em in place 

I placed the face plate, face down on a rag/on a board 
...with the (3) meters in place, nice-n-flush 
...& then used a couple of screws to secure it down 

I used liquid tape around the perimeter, of the meters 
…& worked some down in between adjacent meters too


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## Functional Artist (Aug 8, 2016)

We have (3) meters glued into a faceplate
...nice-n-solid & even suspended in rubber 

Now, we gotta mount them onto a "cup" 
...to protect/contain the wiring & connections
…& for mounting the "whole unit" on the bike

The faceplate sits nice-n-flush on the cup, when empty
...but, not with the meters installed, (2"w x 3"t ) it's ~1/4" too tall 
Hmmmm, notching?


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## Functional Artist (Aug 8, 2016)

Yup, notching 

It looks like we need a "notch" ~3/8" - 1/2" down/deep & ~2" wide

So, I made a couple of "cut marks"
…& used the "handy dandy" cut-off tool

First, I did the downward/drop cuts

Second, I connected the (2) down cuts, with a sideways cut
...being careful not to "over cut" the drop cuts

Third, I cleaned the "notch" up with a file


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## Functional Artist (Aug 8, 2016)

Next we need to "mechanically" attach the faceplate to the cup (to make it all (1) unit)

Plan A:
Was to use (2) 3/16" x 3" long bolts with nuts

Issue: 
I really didn't like the "look" of the Philips bolt head"s on the face of the meter 
…& the 3" bolts (longest they had @ Home Depot) were too short anyways 

Plan B: (always gotta have a plan B) 

I also, picked up a 12" piece of 3/16" threaded rod (just in case)

I cut me a couple of ~4" bolts 
…& will use chrome cone nuts (much kooler) on both visible ends (lock nut in between)


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## Functional Artist (Aug 8, 2016)

Once it was "bolted" together & all (1) unit

I took 'er out to the bike for a "fit check"

Yup, I think that will do

I also added a couple of layers of Liquid Tape around the perimeter
...to seal/glue the faceplate to the cup
…& to seal up/cover/protect the little bit of meter stickin' out


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## Functional Artist (Aug 8, 2016)

Looks Kool!...but, does it work?

Hope so, ...lets do a bench test

Amp/Volt meter
Will display the total pack voltage & the amp's being drawn by the motor

1.) connected a 12V battery to the Amp/Volt meter's power supply wires
...yup, it turns on

2.) connected the B+ sensor lead to the positive terminal
...yup, it displays the battery voltage (12.8V)

3.) gotta attach the shunt & power a load to check the amp draw 
...we'll "actually" test that on the bike

Voltage meter(s)
The top voltage meter is to display the voltage in battery #1 (the "positive" 1/2 of the battery pack)
The bottom voltage meter is to display the voltage in battery #2 (the negative 1/2 of the battery pack)

1.) connected the positive (+) sensor lead from voltage meter #1 to the positive (+) terminal of a 24V SLA battery pack - (2) 12V batteries connected in series

2.) connected the negative (-) sensor lead from voltage meter #1 (combined with the positive (+) sensor lead from meter #2) to the "center tap" (jumper connection between the (2) batteries) of the battery pack 
...yup, meter #1 displays the voltage in battery #1 (12.6V)

3.) connected the negative (-) sensor lead from voltage meter #2 to the negative (-) terminal of battery #2
...yup, meter #2 displays the voltage in battery #2 (12.7V)

Pretty darn close 

* this was (2) separate tests 
…(1) to power & test the Amp/Volt meter @ 12V
…& (1) to power & test the Voltage meters @24V

So, not to confuse you'all
On a 24V battery pack
...the Amp/Volt meter should display ~24V 
…& the (2) 1/2 voltage meters should display ~12V each


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DAG3fW6_j70


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## Functional Artist (Aug 8, 2016)

Bummed! 

I think, I burned out balance monitor meter #2

I got the Tri-Quad mounted on the bike & everything connected

Double checked ALL connections before final hook up (plugging the BMS plug in to the battery)

Everything is a "go" 

Plugged 'er in
...still looks good

Went to turn the key on to "power up" the system & turn the meters on
…& noticed Balance Monitor Meter #1 is kinda flickering
(how can it do that? they should be off) Weird/NOT GOOD 

Then, I turned the key on & everything worked, as designed
...the Amp/Volt meter "lit up" & displayed 45.9V
...the battery balance meter #1 "lit up" & displayed 22.5V
...but, meter #2 didn't do nuthin', nuthin', nuthin'

I went thru everything (3) times
...WTF everything looks "right"

So, (as a test) I got out (2) other Volt meters & connected them in place of the (2) meters that are GLUED IN (what was I thinkin') to the Tri-Quad
…& it seems to work "as designed" 


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M6iofDHhAC4


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## Functional Artist (Aug 8, 2016)

What went wrong? 

While connecting the wiring harness that goes from the Tri-Quad to the battery pack, I was thinkin' 

The Amp/Volt meter is switched on/off thru it's 12V power wires
...but, the (plain) voltage meters are powered, thru the monitor wires, right from the "source"

We gotta add a switch, to be able to turn the meters on/off

So, I added/wired a relay into the "center tap" connection
...I figured that by breaking that single connection, would turn both meters on/off
(This way I could use the bikes 12V system to switch the "higher" voltage stuff (24V - 48V) on/off)


Now, I'm thinkin' that, ...IDK really?

Basically, I had the (2) meters wired in series
...maybe with the "center tap" connection off (disconnected) 
...instead of ~22V goin thru each meter, there was the whole "pack voltage" (~45V) goin thru them

They should of been able to handle it
...the specs say DC5.0V - 120.0V (input voltage limit 132.0V)

Here are the ones that I used
Amp/Volt meter
https://www.ebay.com/itm/DC-300V-500...LH_TitleDesc=0

Voltage meters
https://www.ebay.com/itm/122117143903


But, when I look at other voltage meters
...like this one

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Digital-LED....c100005.m1851

I notice, there is no decimal point (like on mine)

The packages are not labeled so, (maybe) did they send me "smaller" meters?
...how could I tell?


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## Functional Artist (Aug 8, 2016)

I am still waiting for a reply from the eBay seller on the meters

I still don't think they were 100V+ meters 
...which, I don't think, would of been a problem "if" (I didn't) they weren't connected "in series" (design error)

Moving right along

I am going to leave the 1/2 functional Tri-Quad on the bike "for now"
...to monitor total pack voltage & the amp draw

I have assembled a "smaller" digital battery pack balance monitor that I can "use for now" to monitor the balance in my lithium battery pack

I mounted (2) digital voltage meters & a switch (DPST), in a small box & simply connected it to the BMS plug (mounted it right on top of the battery pack)

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Mini-DC-5-...e=STRK:MEBIDX:IT&_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649


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## Functional Artist (Aug 8, 2016)

Here is a kool little video I made up of building the Digital Battery Pack Balance Monitor


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uzwUiSl0Azg


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## Functional Artist (Aug 8, 2016)

The bike is so much lighter & easier to move now
…& I can't even see it (the "new" Volt battery) when sitting on the bike

I have been workin' on getting legal 
(motorcycle license endorsement "studying the book" & license plates) 
…& ordered a "proper" battery charger


So, I finished the book & took the test 

I was kinda nervous 

I know how to ride a motorcycle
...but, I haven't taken a test @ the BMV in like 35 years 

Boom!
I "officially" have a "temporary" motorcycle driving/riding permit 

I was so happy, I went ahead & got license plates for the bike too 

& since it's a 1980 Kawasaki (basically an antique) I was able to get "Historical" plates 
(good forever, you don't have to renew yearly)
...but, the BMV lady was real adamant that these plates are only for going/driving/riding to shows

I was like, "Don't worry, I'll be "showing" it a lot 

They gave me a piece of paper to use as a license plate until I get the real one
...they mail the "actual" plates (I guess they don't have "historical" motorcycle plates in stock)

So, I stuck it in a zip-lock bag & taped it right to
…"my own little sign" TEST VEHICLE STAY BACK 


I also found Yewi, a "Chinese" co. that would make chargers "to order"
...for like 1/2 price 

(I hate the way the places that sell EV stuff mark stuff up SO much)
…& they get their chargers from China too

So, I ordered (2) of their UY-600 (48V 10A) lithium battery chargers
...we'll see how it goes


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## MattsAwesomeStuff (Aug 10, 2017)

For reference, your original thread, now that the forum has been undeleted, is here:

https://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showthread.php?t=187481

Might want to edit your first post to show that.

And/or, if a mod is reading this and has the power to move posts or merge threads, they might be able to restore it for you.

On another note, I'm enjoying your build log, just don't have a lot to say about it. I like a lot of what you've done and will copy some of it on my own 1985 Nighthawk build


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## Functional Artist (Aug 8, 2016)

MattsAwesomeStuff said:


> For reference, your original thread, now that the forum has been undeleted, is here:
> 
> https://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showthread.php?t=187481
> 
> ...


Kool & thanks 
I know, 
...the old thread is like chapter 1 & this thread is like chapter 2


They can't even find the garage so, I doubt it


Nighthawk=shaft drive ...hmmmmm
...i'll be watching


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## Functional Artist (Aug 8, 2016)

Ohio State law requires temporary (motorcycle) permit holders to

1.) Wear a DOT approved Helmet (first year minimum)
2.) No riding after dark 
3.) No riding on the highway/interstate

I am kool with all of that 

I mainly want to test the "set up" & electrical components (amp draw, top speed, range etc.)

I needed a helmet 

So, I put an ad on the local Craigslist

*New Rider Looking for a nice Motorcycle Helmet*

*I just got my temp permit & am looking for a free or low cost motorcycle helmet*


Within (2) days I had several responses
...most were, I have an ad posted "check it out" (mostly ~$50.00+)
…& some were kinda far away (~20 miles)

Then, this guy replied that he had several to choose from ($20.00 - $30.00 ea.)
…& right here in town, even 

So, I went & checked 'em out

Yup, I brought me home a nice one ($20.00) 
...with (2) tone black flames


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## Functional Artist (Aug 8, 2016)

Time for a test ride
...just around/thru the neighborhood, for now


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5vRUdxZ334g


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## MattsAwesomeStuff (Aug 10, 2017)

Your voltage is near where mine would be. I'm limited to 45.5v because that's where my 36v controller maxes out (and that's the highest voltage junk-controller I've been able to scrounge).

If you ever slam it to your top speed on a test, let me know how fast you got it going and the numbers you recall.

I'm not worried about power, I've got enough power in the controller to hit highway speed, I'm worried about speed sag from just, not giving the motor a high enough voltage to make it go fast enough.


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## Functional Artist (Aug 8, 2016)

I received the charger I ordered

It's a Yewi YU-600 ($200.00)
48V 10A 
Top Charge preset to 49V

It's just a bit smaller than the Yewi UY-900 48V 15A charger that greentechautohybredspecialists has for sale ($300.00)
https://www.ebay.com/itm/223038081042

But, while doing research, I remember reading that it's best to use a battery charger where the amperage is ~20% of the battery packs AH (capacity rating)

For this ~50AH battery pack
...a 10% charge rate would be 5A (very slow or maintenance charge)
...a 20% charge rate would be 10A (slow charge)
…& a 30% charge rate would be 15A (faster charge)

So, I went with the Yewi UY-600 
...to save a few bucks
…& for a slower "proper" charge rate (to hopefully help this battery pack last a long, long time)


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## Functional Artist (Aug 8, 2016)

I did some more testin'
...she rolls out very, very smooth

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aNEltShaPIE

Then, I connected the new Yewi battery charger
...but, it didn't seem to be charging

According to the manual
...both red lights should be lit when charging
…& when the battery is fully charged, there should be (1) red light & (1) green light lit

When I was "charging" there was (1) red light & (1) green light lit

Hmmm


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## Functional Artist (Aug 8, 2016)

I forgot to mention that I installed a female XLR port, into the box, next to the circuit breaker

I left the charger connected for about 30 min

After I disconnected it, the Amp/Volt meter still showed ~43V
…the balance monitor showed 21.5V in each 1/2 of the pack

I even double checked the voltage right at the battery packs terminals 
...the multimeter also showed ~43V

While double checking & going over everything again, I noticed that the 200-240V box is marked on the charger & in the manual 
...but, it has a 110V AC plug
...the 110V boxes should be marked


WTF


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## MattsAwesomeStuff (Aug 10, 2017)

Things I want to know:

1 - What's your top speed? I'm guessing it's not reg'd yet and you're just doing community trips? 

2 - I'm curious about the voltage sag and amp draw when you're riding. I'd appreciate you maybe mounting the camera to the handlebars so I can watch the speedometer and the panel meters as you drive around a bit.

How long before the kid gets to ride it?


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## Functional Artist (Aug 8, 2016)

MattsAwesomeStuff said:


> Things I want to know:
> 
> 1 - What's your top speed? I'm guessing it's not reg'd yet and you're just doing community trips?
> 
> ...


 
I have to get the battery pack charged back up before I can do any more testing

I too am interested in the specs
Top speed, amp draw, voltage sag etc.

Yup, she's all legal (see post #16)
...even got Historical plates for the 'ol gal

Ya, set up a camera to "record" the data
...I like that idea


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## Functional Artist (Aug 8, 2016)

Yup, the geniuses @ the Yewi factory set this charger up for a 220V AC input
...but, installed a standard 110V AC input plug

Then, they sent me instructions on how to switch it over to 110V, myself
…"just add a jumper wire"

I say, "That's ridiculous, it's brand new"

So, I complain loudly
...& now a new/replacement is on the way

They also send more complete instructions, on how to switch this one to 110V, while I'm waiting

Wow!
...now, they say "a component needs to be removed & (2) jumper wires need to be added"

Kinda of a big difference


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## Functional Artist (Aug 8, 2016)

Tired of waitin' & runnin' out of summer
What the hlle, I'm goin' in (hope I don't mess this up)

First, I removed (8) small Phillips head screws
…(4) on each end

Then, gently pulled the end covers loose (to see what we had to work with)

I assumed (wrong) that the circuit board would just slide right out

Nope, looking inside with a light, I see that there are things that are soldered to the circuit board 
...& also "glued" to the inside of the aluminum box

Hmmm 

Well, it looks like the "green thing" is right here at the edge of the circuit board
…& the (2) "jumper spots" (A) & (B) seem to be kinda accessible too

I think I can do it!


Step 1.) 
I "sniped" the Lima bean out 

OK, now we need (2) jumper wires
...the "factory" recommended (oddball) 17 AWG
(the next size bigger is usually better) 

Step 2.)
So, I cut (2) ~ 1" pieces of orange 16 g. wire 

Step 3.)
I tinned both of the ends of both jumper wires

Step 4.)
I used the soldering iron to melt a small blob of solder (to tin) each of the first "jumper wire" attachment spots (A) & (B)

Step 5.)
I held (1) end of a jumper wire to (1) of the solder blobs (B)
…& used the soldering iron to solder them together

Step 6.)
Then, I held the other end to the second solder blob (A)
…& soldered them together too 

Lookin' good so far, hopefully this second one goes that smoothly 

Step 7.)
I melted (2) more solder blobs 
...where the Lima bean was mounted

Step 8.)
I gripped the second jumper with a clamp
…pressed (1) end of it to (1) of the solder blobs
…& then, used the soldering iron to solder them together

Step 9.)
I pressed the other end of the jumper to the second blob
…& soldered them together too 

Boom!, I think we did it 

Just gotta reinstall this yellow wire
…& put the ends back on


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## Functional Artist (Aug 8, 2016)

Now to see if it works 

Took 'er out to the bike, plugged the AC input plug into an extension cord & turned the switch on

The red & green lights lit up
…& No Magic Smoke 

Before connecting it to the bike, I flipped the balance monitor on to get an initial voltage reading
...43V is showing on the Tri-Quad 
…& 21.6V is showing on both of the balance monitors

Then, I plugged the DC output plug into the charge port on the bike
…& both red lights, on the charger, lit up 

Next, lets see how long it takes
…& to what voltage the battery pack gets charged back up to


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## Functional Artist (Aug 8, 2016)

Before charging, I recorded the voltage of the battery pack 
Tri-Quad: 43V
Mulit-meter: 43V
Balance Monitor: 21.6V / 21.6V

Then, I connected the Yewi UY-600 charger @ 4:45pm
…& both red lights lit up 
...but, the fan was not on

I didn't want to turn the circuit breaker on, while charging
...to get a reading from the Tri-Quad 
...or keep messing with the MM 
...so, I just took hourly voltage readings from the Balance Monitor

1 hour 5:45pm 22.8V / 22.8V 2 red lights & yes the fan is on
2 hours 6:45pm 23.8 V/ 23.8V 2 red lights & yes the fan is on
3 hours 7:45pm 24.3V / 24.3V 2 red lights & no the fan is off
4 hours 8:45pm 24.4V / 24.4V 2 red lights & no the fan is off
5 hours 9:45 pm 24.4V / 24.4V 1 red light & 1 green light & no fan

Then, I unhooked the charger & turned the circuit breaker on 
...the Tri-Quad showed 49.7V

Hmmm, it should be topped off @ 49V 
...but, who knows how accurate these Chinese meters are?

So, I waited an hour & took more readings (rested voltage)

~6 hours from when I started charging 


~11:00 pm 
Tri-Quad: 49.7V 
Balance monitor: 24.4V / 24.4V

The next morning I took some more readings (overnight rested voltage) 
16 hours ~9:00am 

Tri-Quad: 49.8V 
Balance monitor: 24.4V / 24.4V (48.8V total)


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## Functional Artist (Aug 8, 2016)

I got 'er all charged back up 
...time for some more testing

I set up the camera to record the dash (instruments)
...like MattsAwesomeStuff suggested 

Here is the video 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VI2V2Sv97wc&index=40&list=PLoL6eIYWPO_nZYYAumnkE7RowDoBCsuCh
...pay close attention to the Amps gauge ~3:00


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## MattsAwesomeStuff (Aug 10, 2017)

Damn 500 amp? My controller maxes at 275. You'll definitely be quicker 

I'm most interested in the current that's flowing when traveling at a steady speed. It's cool to see what you can peg it to when accelerating, but I'm curious what it takes to hold a given speed (and top speed).

I'm trying it guess whether my current controller and voltage will work (before I wire up 2000x 18650s) for highway speeds.


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## Functional Artist (Aug 8, 2016)

MattsAwesomeStuff said:


> Damn 500 amp? My controller maxes at 275. You'll definitely be quicker
> 
> I'm most interested in the current that's flowing when traveling at a steady speed. It's cool to see what you can peg it to when accelerating, but I'm curious what it takes to hold a given speed (and top speed).
> 
> I'm trying it guess whether my current controller and voltage will work (before I wire up 2000x 18650s) for highway speeds.


I took a few more rides, to gather some more data.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V2ZaYSVmUN0&index=41&list=PLoL6eIYWPO_nZYYAumnkE7RowDoBCsuCh


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NR-z-JpxI6c&index=42&list=PLoL6eIYWPO_nZYYAumnkE7RowDoBCsuCh


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## MattsAwesomeStuff (Aug 10, 2017)

One thing I noticed is that the power draw is nowhere near as consistent as I imagined it would be. You're holding a steady speed and your power draw is anywhere between 20amps and 60amps.

For me this highlights that I do not want a digital ammeter. I want analog so at least I have some momentum to the dial to average it out. I like analog better anyways (it's visually indicative via actual motion, rather than just numerically indicative), but, I think I'll convert my tachometer to an ammeter behind the dash.

I can't tell if you were hovering at the speed limit or whether that was maxing out your motor for the voltage you were able to give it?


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## Functional Artist (Aug 8, 2016)

MattsAwesomeStuff said:


> One thing I noticed is that the power draw is nowhere near as consistent as I imagined it would be. You're holding a steady speed and your power draw is anywhere between 20amps and 60amps.
> 
> For me this highlights that I do not want a digital ammeter. I want analog so at least I have some momentum to the dial to average it out. I like analog better anyways (it's visually indicative via actual motion, rather than just numerically indicative), but, I think I'll convert my tachometer to an ammeter behind the dash.
> 
> I can't tell if you were hovering at the speed limit or whether that was maxing out your motor for the voltage you were able to give it?


Most of the time, I was holding it at "full speed" which for this set up looks to be right @ 35MPH.

I believe the Amp fluxuations are due to pavement differences & bumps in the road & maybe even some wind resistance changes. (it was very windy that day)

I've always heard that the analog (needle & gauge) amp meters "bounce" too much for accurate use in a moving/motor vehicle


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

Functional Artist said:


> I've always heard that the analog (needle & gauge) amp meters "bounce" too much for accurate use in a moving/motor vehicle


That's likely, if the particular meter is not intended for use in a vibrating environment; this is true of any moving-needle meter. For many years cars routinely had ammeters (to help the driver assess the charging system), and bouncing wasn't a problem any more than it is with the wide variety of other similar electrical meters in instrument panels, displaying various information but always fundamentally ammeters; presumably they were appropriately damped.


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## MattsAwesomeStuff (Aug 10, 2017)

> That's likely, if the particular meter is not intended for use in a vibrating environment; this is true of any moving-needle meter.


I was going to say, fluid-filled gauges, but, you're right, dash-gauges are cheap and not fluid filled far as I know.



> Most of the time, I was holding it at "full speed" which for this set up looks to be right @ 35MPH.


Well DRAT.

Your voltage is slightly higher than mine, and you still can't go faster.

It couldn't be that your current was limited, right? Because I'd seen it spike into the hundreds.

How do you feel about 35mph? Good enough or do you want faster?

Thanks again for documenting your build so well, it's helped me answer a lot of questions about how I should proceed. Also, it's just fun and interesting to see.


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## PStechPaul (May 1, 2012)

I can't understand why the current reads zero for much of the ride. And it never goes negative. No regen? And is this battery current or motor current?


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## Functional Artist (Aug 8, 2016)

I have to do more research but, it seems like it's not showing an amp draw unless your accelerating. No, I don't have regen on this controller.
The amp meter is showing battery current.


PS, Thanks Matt & Paul, for your support.


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## Miaplacidus82 (Oct 11, 2018)

Bummed! 

I think, I burned out balance monitor meter #2


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## PStechPaul (May 1, 2012)

What are you using for a balance monitor, and how is it connected? The self-powered meters may be rated for 48V, but the internal regulator might not handle the maximum 56 volts of a fully charged 4x12V lead-acid pack.


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## Functional Artist (Aug 8, 2016)

PStechPaul said:


> What are you using for a balance monitor, and how is it connected? The self-powered meters may be rated for 48V, but the internal regulator might not handle the maximum 56 volts of a fully charged 4x12V lead-acid pack.


Hey Paul,
I use my DBBM (Digital Battery Balance Monitor) to monitor the balance of the battery pack. 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uzwUiSl0Azg

Its directly wired to & plugged into the (stock) Chevy Volt BMS plug. 

It's switched so, it does not draw any power except when switched on (& so far) I only use it momentarily to check the balance before & after a ride & also before & after charging.
(it doesn't need to be on & displaying a reading constantly)

If you remember, I killed the (4) SLA's last winter, I now have a (45V nominal) 2kWh section of a Chevy Volt battery pack on it & I only charge it to 49.8V.


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## PStechPaul (May 1, 2012)

My question was for the previous poster: Miaplacidus82


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## Functional Artist (Aug 8, 2016)

PStechPaul said:


> My question was for the previous poster: Miaplacidus82


Oops 
IDK what that post was about, definitely need more info


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## dain254 (Oct 8, 2015)

I'm curious why go through all the hassle to monitor balance? Unless you are drawing over 500A all the time the pack will tend to remain in balance for several cycles. The electric motorcycle I recently build using an old dirt bike also utilizes the 2kwh Volt module. So long as you are monitoring full pack voltage - a 12S BMS has gotten so cheap these days that it seems silly to me to not use one - and the only time it needs to be used is during charging (which is how I charge my modules). My top speed is only 40mph or so, but with an 800A controller it will flip over backwards - attached a pic of the bike for fun. I'm curious also what range you are seeing with the 2kwh pack, I was thinking of getting mine registered for street use and changing sprockets to get 60mph.


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## Functional Artist (Aug 8, 2016)

dain254 said:


> I'm curious why go through all the hassle to monitor balance? Unless you are drawing over 500A all the time the pack will tend to remain in balance for several cycles. The electric motorcycle I recently build using an old dirt bike also utilizes the 2kwh Volt module. So long as you are monitoring full pack voltage - a 12S BMS has gotten so cheap these days that it seems silly to me to not use one - and the only time it needs to be used is during charging (which is how I charge my modules). My top speed is only 40mph or so, but with an 800A controller it will flip over backwards - attached a pic of the bike for fun. I'm curious also what range you are seeing with the 2kwh pack, I was thinking of getting mine registered for street use and changing sprockets to get 60mph.


 

Howdy,

Being extra, super careful. 

Have you ever seen a lithium battery "gas out"? It's "wicked".

I definitely don't ever want that happening between my legs or in my garage.

These Lithium batteries are totally new technology to me, that's why I did all of that research on BMS's, charging & monitoring. 

I'm just tryin' "to do it right" or at least safely. 

The meters let me know what's goin' on inside of the battery pack.

As far as I know the "jury is still out" on those cheap BMS's because there are so many variables like quality, compatibility (to specific situations) & then the proper installation & use. 

I've also heard of many folks who got over-confident because "I have a BMS", didn't keep a proper eye on things & bad things happened.


* BTW Nice bike. What motor/controller are you using?


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## dain254 (Oct 8, 2015)

I can certainly understand the desire to be extra super careful! I personally haven't had any lithium batteries go up and I don't plan to! One thing I would like to suggest to you that I did before using legit BMS' is taking the standard BMS harness from the volt, and adapting a plug to it use with a hobbyking battery medic. I have one of these made for the 6S 1kw modules I use frequently, I can post a pic later. Link to a battery medic is here:

https://hobbyking.com/en_us/hobbykingtm-battery-medic-system-2s-6s.html

They are typically only used for RC vehicle sized batteries, but will also work with the Chevy Volt modules (balancing takes a lot longer). for the 12S module you simply need 2 of them, and you have a super super cheap way to monitor AND balance the pack all the time at an individual cell level! When I built my first electric vehicle with a 20S lithium pack I had an array of 4 of these (5S in each) mounted in front of me so I could see each cell all the time. It actually worked great!

Thanks for the compliments on the bike - I'm using a Motenergy ME1003 and Kelly KDZ72801E (regen version). Motor gets hot if you are riding through sand or mud but works great otherwise!


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## Functional Artist (Aug 8, 2016)

dain254 said:


> I can certainly understand the desire to be extra super careful! I personally haven't had any lithium batteries go up and I don't plan to! One thing I would like to suggest to you that I did before using legit BMS' is taking the standard BMS harness from the volt, and adapting a plug to it use with a hobbyking battery medic. I have one of these made for the 6S 1kw modules I use frequently, I can post a pic later. Link to a battery medic is here:
> 
> https://hobbyking.com/en_us/hobbykingtm-battery-medic-system-2s-6s.html
> 
> ...


Everything I have heard is that these Volt packs are extremely well matched (on many parameters) & very stable (as a whole).

How often have your Volt packs been "out of balance"? 
...or do you just balance while charging "to be sure"?

The theory I'm working under is: 
Start with a professionally engineered & manufactured battery pack (not DIY)
...monitor the balance (just to be sure) 
...& use a charger specifically set to only charge the battery to ~49V. (98 or 99% capacity, for a small "safety margin").


* The motor looks dinky in the pic.
…& an 800A controller, Wow!


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## dain254 (Oct 8, 2015)

I would say they are very well matched as well. All of your information is correct. I only balance charge them just to be sure - a person could certainly not balance for a few cycles and likely be fine. I also have been charging mine all the way up to 50.4 - yes ideally you would stop somewhere at 48 or 49 to be gentle on the pack. I don't do that because I'm lazy and want my extra couple volts for maximum power!

It's a little hard to see the motor as it is behind the mounting plate - it's 35lbs or so. As far as the controller putting out 800A - I think on the taddle tale the highest I"ve seen is 470A, the chinese controllers are always quite a bit weaker than they are rated for some reason.


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## Functional Artist (Aug 8, 2016)

Volt Battery Pack update 

The bike has been put away since mid October. 

I have checked the battery pack every couple of weeks, just to be sure 
...& the balance monitors have shown 24.3V in each half of the battery pack consistently. 

A few weeks ago a Polar Vortex came thru the area (actually 1/2 of the frickin' country) 
...& we saw a few days of -15 temps, with -30's wind chills. 

I'm happy to report that the balance monitors are both still showing 24.3V


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## Functional Artist (Aug 8, 2016)

*100 electrical miles*

Since I converted this motorcycle to electric back in August of 2017, I had only put ~34 (electrical) miles on it. 

I think I put ~ 27 miles on 'er, test riding around a Wal-Mart parking lot @ 36V.
...& then it looks like I only put ~ 7 miles testing 'er riding around my neighborhood @ 48V SLA 
...& also @ 45V Lithium.

Mainly, because I was NOT "legal". I didn't have a motorcycle license or the proper insurance coverage.
…so, I just let 'er sit. (worked on other stuff)

Well, this year I didn't wanna "just let 'er sit"

So, now I have a motorcycle license, plates & insurance
…& just passed the 100 (electrical) mile mark 

I got ~27 miles on 'er during this last ride before the low voltage "shut off" kicked in 

So, in this (45V 47AH) configuration, I seem to have a ~25 range

I'll probably stick to ~20 miles (~10 miles each way) just to be safe. 

Is that good?
...or considered average? 



* A while back, (before I got banned) some of the guys on ElMoto (the electric motorcycle forum) were concerned about my chain routing/set up.

1.) They told me that my 10 tooth drive sprocket was too small
…& will wear prematurely
(~15 tooth drive sprocket is usually the minimum size sprocket that they recommend)

2.) They also didn't like where I mounted my "idler" sprocket
...to help route the chain around the swing arm 
(they said, my chain did not "wrap" around the drive sprocket enough)

** For the record, @ the 100 (electrical) miles mark, (I'm happy to report) that there does NOT seem to be ANY wear on the drive sprocket 
...the idler sprocket 
...or on the driven sprocket either. 

Didn't even hardly seem to wear any of the paint off (see pics)
...but, I'll keep an eye on 'er.


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## jonescg (Nov 3, 2010)

That's a rather ...unique setup 

I think there's enough chain wrap on the drive sprocket, so don't worry about that. The chain pull on the rear sprocket is not ideal, as it will cause the swingarm to squat under hard acceleration. This doesn't look like a performance machine though, so it won't be a deal breaker, but it will make the bike run wide as you power out of a corner.


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## Functional Artist (Aug 8, 2016)

I've been doin' some riding & testing

I went & found a big bridge to see how well the bike would "take it"

I also did some recording of the meter, to see what kinda amps she would draw while "doin it".

Here is a video of the ride


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3cBgnbR_mPc


…this is the bridge.


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## Functional Artist (Aug 8, 2016)

Well, I've got over 250 miles on 'er now & I'm happy to report that (knock on wood) everything seems to be goin' good. 

The bike runs great, is very nimble & has great acceleration
...like 0 to top speed (35MPH) in ~4 seconds 

So, I gave everything a good "lookin' over"
...went around double checkin' the bolts
...& the inspected the sprockets again (& they still aren't showing any wear) 

I also installed an analog amp meter, to get some data that we can compare with the data that we got from the digital amp meter.

Then, I took 'er for a ride to get some data with the analog amp meter. 
(went to go visit the big bridge again)


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5CpeS5ENA18


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## Functional Artist (Aug 8, 2016)

With all of the sh*t that was going on last year (2020), I forgot about doing a 500 mile update.

To catch ya all up, the bike still rolls out great, no noticeable wear on any of the sprockets & the battery pack is doing good too. 

The pack seems to still have the same capacity as @ 250 miles & the balance monitors have always been "in sync".

I also, got a new cover & re-did the seat. It really makes a difference in the looks & feel. 

I did a video on re-covering the seat, if anyone is interested.


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## Functional Artist (Aug 8, 2016)

Next. I figured I'd try a PZEM-051 meter (seemed to work pretty good on my Excalibur kart)
I was interested to see/test the capacity of the battery pack (not just amp draw)

My only concern is that this meter is labeled/rated @ 100V/100A

The batt pack is ~48V so, were good there
...but, this motor can pull well over 200A so,..

* I didn't think it will "fry" the meter, as no current actually flows thru it (it's just reads a signal)
...but, maybe it would just "blank out" or show an 0 

The meter actually did really good 

It showed me starting off @ 49.15V & recorded 1,600Wh used running the pack down to 34.5V (~2.8V per cell)
* yes, I know it's not good to discharge these packs below ~3V per cell
...it was only a test & never happened again








Here is the video of my ride, it's not super exciting just mostly to gather data


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## Functional Artist (Aug 8, 2016)

*1,000 mile update*

I have put 1,000 miles on my El Moto since converting it to electric

She rolls out fantastic & is/seems very "nimble" while riding (not like heavy feeling or awkward at all)

I now have (2) Chevy Volt 48V 50AH Lithium battery modules powering the 8,000W motor
...so, my range is now ~45 miles 
* I trimmed off the water channels (gained ~6" advantage) 
...& re-purposed them kool orange 4g. batt cables, from the Chevy Volt

I'm now, running a 4.5:1 gear ratio (10T drive & 45T driven)
...so, my top speed is ~41 MPH (when fully charged) yup, she's just a city "cruiser" 
&
My chain "routing" seems ta be workin' fine, I haven't had any problems with it
...& I still do not notice any "wear" on the sprockets 

* I was warned that my drive sprocket was too small & would wear prematurely or cause problems 
...but, NOT so far 

** I did a quick "1,000 mile update" video (for personal records if nothing else)


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## Functional Artist (Aug 8, 2016)

One of the features that I incorporated, into the design of this bike, was to use an idler with the same size shaft, as the motor 
...so this way, I can easily interchange the (2) different size sprockets, without having to "mess" with the size of the chain 

The motor has a 10 tooth sprocket
...& a 50 tooth sprocket on the rear wheel, the gear ratio is 5:1 (it's NOT a 45T as noted previously)
...& my top speed is ~42 MPH

The idler, that I used, has a 13 tooth sprocket
...& so, if I "swap" 'em (technical term) & put the 13 tooth sprocket on the motor, the gear ratio would drop to 3.85:1

I'm thinking that my top speed will increase (hopefully ~10 MPH)
...but, at the expense of some Amps (over-all range) & torque ("peppy" acceleration) 

* The only "issue" I encountered was, putting a larger diameter sprocket on the motor made the chain "ride higher"
...& as such, the chain was rubbing on the chain guard 

So, I had ta do some adjusting 

Yup, I did a video, ta document the progress 
...(or failure)


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