# A123s gone bad



## jr dragster (Oct 11, 2010)

raced this weekend car slowed down half a second so went looking this is what if found 72 volt pack 24 cells, 7 cells are bad anyone know why?? Charge to 87 volts only cycled 10 times charge them every morning before race, pulling 450 amps at max .cells where all at 3.301 to 3.307 . mabye 80-90 passes at 10 secs a pass.


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## Ziggythewiz (May 16, 2010)

Any idea what your pack temp is when running at 20+C?


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## jr dragster (Oct 11, 2010)

no , i have no data recorders on the car ,will put some on for next year.


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## Ziggythewiz (May 16, 2010)

Where were the 7 cells located, middle or sides? 

I have no experience with A123s, but those pouches look like a grilled cheese sandwich microwaved in the baggie.


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## jr dragster (Oct 11, 2010)

Ziggythewiz said:


> Where were the 7 cells located, middle or sides?
> 
> I have no experience with A123s, but those pouches look like a grilled cheese sandwich microwaved in the baggie.


 2 where end rest where random


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

jr dragster said:


> View attachment 14123
> View attachment 14122
> raced this weekend car slowed down half a second so went looking this is what if found 72 volt pack 24 cells, 7 cells are bad anyone know why?? Charge to 87 volts only cycled 10 times charge them every morning before race, pulling 450 amps at max .cells where all at 3.301 to 3.307 . mabye 80-90 passes at 10 secs a pass.


Offhand I'd say those cells were overcharged. Do you use a BMS?

They appear puffed. Are they? Was there any solvent leakage?

Please post the link to your battery assembly. I remember it but can't find it now.


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## Yabert (Feb 7, 2010)

From memory, it didn't use a bms.

Theoretically charged at 3.5v per cell isn't fully trust that all cell stay bellow 3.6v at the end of charge.
I hope it's the problem, if no, this is strange.


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## Jozzer (Mar 29, 2009)

Were they "compressed" at all? A123 warn of spontaneous cell failure if the cells don't have pressure applied..


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## ruckus (Apr 15, 2009)

Balancing procedure?

Even with a shunting bms if your cells are not somewhat in balance before first charge the charger can overpower the balancers. With no bms this is even more likely. It will literally happen in 'seconds'.


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## jr dragster (Oct 11, 2010)

major said:


> Offhand I'd say those cells were overcharged. Do you use a BMS?
> 
> They appear puffed. Are they? Was there any solvent leakage?
> 
> Please post the link to your battery assembly. I remember it but can't find it now.


no bms they are puffed there is leakage ,all the cells were balanced before put together,i was giving them a charge before every race up to 87 mabye to high ? I did charge them about 3 weeks ago twice in one day we ran 8 passes gave them a quick charge when the cells were warm that was the first time i did that and that may have done it they were working fine up till then so that may be what happened.will put other pack in this weekend and only charge to 80 (lucky i built two),the cells are all at 3.301 to 3.307 even the ones that are leaking??[/ATTACH]


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## jr dragster (Oct 11, 2010)

Jozzer said:


> Were they "compressed" at all? A123 warn of spontaneous cell failure if the cells don't have pressure applied..


 they were compressed


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

jr dragster said:


> no bms they are puffed there is leakage ,all the cells were balanced before put together,i was giving them a charge before every race up to 87 mabye to high ? I did charge them about 3 weeks ago twice in one day we ran 8 passes gave them a quick charge when the cells were warm that was the first time i did that and that may have done it they were working fine up till then so that may be what happened.will put other pack in this weekend and only charge to 80 (lucky i built two),the cells are all at 3.301 to 3.307 even the ones that are leaking??


With these cells the mid charge voltage is not a decent indicator of SoC (State of Charge). So to equalize or determine "balance" you need to be above the knee on the upper end of SoC or below the knee on the lower end of SoC. 

Bulk charge voltage like 87V for 24 cells in series, or even 80V, is no assurance that a cell or cells are not overcharged unless you are dead certain they are balanced and of equal capacity on the cell level.

If you don't want the full blown BMS, at least get a monitor at the cell level. The CellLog device is a cheap way to do that. There are several threads about it. If that is what you use, set the alarm and be there to shut down the charger when the first cells hits the HVC.

I am pretty sure overcharge did in those cells, but not positive. BTW, are those threaded rods passing thru the cell tabs????


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## jr dragster (Oct 11, 2010)

major said:


> With these cells the mid charge voltage is not a decent indicator of SoC (State of Charge). So to equalize or determine "balance" you need to be above the knee on the upper end of SoC or below the knee on the lower end of SoC.
> 
> Bulk charge voltage like 87V for 24 cells in series, or even 80V, is no assurance that a cell or cells are not overcharged unless you are dead certain they are balanced and of equal capacity on the cell level.
> 
> ...


 yes they are covered with a shrink wrap same stuff they use on the power lines,hard as hell to cut off later .


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## powerhouse (Apr 1, 2011)

The damage to the cells looks similar to the damage seen on this powerpoint from NASA

http://ntrs.nasa.gov/archive/nasa/casi.ntrs.nasa.gov/20120000040_2011025423.pdf

Their damage was the result of a controlled experiment though.
They got those ugly black blisters by polarizing the Al layer of the pouch to the negative potential of the cell.


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

powerhouse said:


> The damage to the cells looks similar to the damage seen on this powerpoint from NASA
> 
> http://ntrs.nasa.gov/archive/nasa/casi.ntrs.nasa.gov/20120000040_2011025423.pdf
> 
> ...


Interesting report, powerhouse.....thanks. I took the polarization of the Al layer to be a way to accelerate the corrosion (black spots) but not as the cause. I tend to think the cause may be either manufacture quality or damage. So two unanswered questions:

1) Were these cells first rate top quality material purchase or from the gray market?

2) Were the cells damaged from A) Overcharge, or B) handling/assembly?

Any other theories?


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## rwaudio (May 22, 2008)

I'll post some pictures of my pack shortly, I just pulled it out to do some rework on the battery box. I had a bad cell on one side of the pack, but the other side of the pack turned into an interesting "sludge"

These cells produce power, but I don't think they have the long term reliability of Prismatics.


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## powerhouse (Apr 1, 2011)

rwaudio said:


> I'll post some pictures of my pack shortly, I just pulled it out to do some rework on the battery box. I had a bad cell on one side of the pack, but the other side of the pack turned into an interesting "sludge"
> 
> These cells produce power, but I don't think they have the long term reliability of Prismatics.


What the heck....
So how many cells are bad?

This doesn't sound good


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## jr dragster (Oct 11, 2010)

major said:


> Interesting report, powerhouse.....thanks. I took the polarization of the Al layer to be a way to accelerate the corrosion (black spots) but not as the cause. I tend to think the cause may be either manufacture quality or damage. So two unanswered questions:
> 
> 1) Were these cells first rate top quality material purchase or from the gray market?
> 
> ...


got cells from victpower mabye not gray (????) if it was the outside cells i would go with handling may have scratched a cell putting in the case but i cant see damaging the inside ones,i thought overcharge. but rw has some cells damaged and i think he is using the cellogs. things that make you go what the ....


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## rwaudio (May 22, 2008)

powerhouse said:


> What the heck....
> So how many cells are bad?
> 
> This doesn't sound good


It's bad enough I'm almost ready to jump ship and switch to CALB CA's 
I have a few CALB's coming on a friends order that will be put in series with my A123's and tested at high currents to see how they compare. I'll be testing the 60Ah, 100Ah and maybe even a 40Ah just to see what it can put out.

I had a cell group die completely and not swell or show any signs of distress. I have a bunch of cells that still perform very well but expelled electrolyte that formed into a crusty layer below and up the sides of the cells in the battery box.

All but 2 or 3 of these cell groups show no signs of swelling and have not been overcharged or overdischarged. The couple that do show very minor signs of swelling are very slight.

I love the power these things produce and no other cell can touch them for power output vs size/weight, however I just want my EV to run reliably.

For reference my cells are "grey market" from Shenzhen Victpower.


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## somanywelps (Jan 25, 2012)

Glad I don't have A123 stock now...


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## marc02228 (Jan 15, 2011)

How many cycles did the cells have when you noticed it?


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## jr dragster (Oct 11, 2010)

marc02228 said:


> How many cycles did the cells have when you noticed it?


9 or 10 i thought it was the bad headwind on sat noticed the car slowed down .40 sec no wind on sunday car was 1 sec slower.


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## GerhardRP (Nov 17, 2009)

powerhouse said:


> The damage to the cells looks similar to the damage seen on this powerpoint from NASA
> 
> http://ntrs.nasa.gov/archive/nasa/casi.ntrs.nasa.gov/20120000040_2011025423.pdf
> 
> ...


Can you find out if stray currents are accidentally biasing the pouch in a way similar to the NASA test?
Gerhard


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## powerhouse (Apr 1, 2011)

This is looking pretty bad...
Rwaudio could you post some pictures of your packs? Is the damage similar to jr. dragster's ?
Do the damaged cells still function? What voltage are they sitting at?

I am wondering what is causing these cells to die. Possibly compression? 

What amperage was your controller set at, and how many amps was each cell supplying? I want to figure this out before I build mine and risk destroying cells!


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## GeoMetric (Aug 13, 2010)

rwaudio said:


> It's bad enough I'm almost ready to jump ship and switch to CALB CA's
> I have a few CALB's coming on a friends order that will be put in series with my A123's and tested at high currents to see how they compare. I'll be testing the 60Ah, 100Ah and maybe even a 40Ah just to see what it can put out.
> 
> I had a cell group die completely and not swell or show any signs of distress. I have a bunch of cells that still perform very well but expelled electrolyte that formed into a crusty layer below and up the sides of the cells in the battery box.
> ...


Are these the same cells you built with aluminum connectors? 

My Haiyin 4000amp pack with the silver coated copper bus bars delivers a punch and never heats past 45C. I use a EMUS BMS which works like a charm with a Manzanito charger. So far, so good!


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## rwaudio (May 22, 2008)

powerhouse said:


> This is looking pretty bad...
> Rwaudio could you post some pictures of your packs? Is the damage similar to jr. dragster's ?
> Do the damaged cells still function? What voltage are they sitting at?
> 
> ...


The cells are still work fine, I have a hand full of cells with the same "damage" as jr. dragsters, but most of them have a different "issue". I haven't done a deep discharge so I can't say if they have lost any capacity or not, but after 100 shallow discharges the performance is actually very good. I do have one completely dead cell though, I haven't found the "cause of death" yet. It's still early but it looks like the aluminium heat spreader for the heating system was causing a portion of the problem, the cells need to be insulated from any and everything including aluminium fins or other spacers between the cells, under or around the cells. The controller was set at 1000 battery amps with each cell providing up to 333A. My cruising current was around 50-100 battery amps, with 300A going up some hills, 500A accelerating up some hills and 800-1000A only under full acceleration which only lasted 4-6 seconds. On my typical commute I would hit peaks of 800 battery amps but 99% of the time below 500A.



GeoMetric said:


> Are these the same cells you built with aluminum connectors?
> 
> My Haiyin 4000amp pack with the silver coated copper bus bars delivers a punch and never heats past 45C. I use a EMUS BMS which works like a charm with a Manzanito charger. So far, so good!


The aluminium connectors are working beautifully never get hot and are not near any of the problems. (issues are at the bottom of the cells) My pack has never exceeded 40C with ambient temps in the 25-28C range. I don't know the cause of the cell failure, but there was no swelling or typical results of overdischarge/overcharge, so perhaps simply a faulty cell (which killed the two it was tied to as well). 

Sorry I haven't gotten pictures yet, I've been busy welding in the steel mounting brackets for the box and sealing it so it's weather proof for the winter and keeps the heat in. I'll dig out the good camera and take some close ups that show what the cells are doing. In all of my testing as well as torture testing where I overcharged, overdischarged, short circuited cells none of them ever did what these cells are now doing now. 

Just for reference the pack performed the best between 30-40C, it may perform better even warmer but that's as hot as my pack ever got.


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## MalcolmB (Jun 10, 2008)

Sorry to read about the problems you're having with these cells. I just did a search for "electrolytic corrosion lithium pouch cells" and found another more detailed NASA report. The report doesn't apply to A123 specifically, and I haven't read it in full yet, but the gist seems to be that the corrosion is caused by microscopic internal shorts, and can be accelerated by external voltages applied through breaks in the pouch insulation.

http://ntrs.nasa.gov/archive/nasa/casi.ntrs.nasa.gov/20100027579_2010030201.pdf


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## piwhy (Feb 8, 2011)

Hello,
Sorry to hear about your A123 cells problems.
I've also made some assembly tests on it. First I've assembled it on an aluminium frame and I've noticed some floating voltage between terminals of the pack and the frame, due to the conductivity of the pouch layer.
I'm pretty sure that your problem come from this layer and the assembly method.
Does the damaged cells had their edge which touching one of the next-door cell ?
Now I only assemble them in plastic box with 1.8mm foot rubber between each cells and I pay attention that there's not any touch between each cell's edge.
But I'm wondering if we must isolate each cell or only each "bunch" of 3 or 4 cells...


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## Batterypoweredtoad (Feb 5, 2008)

The A123 factory produced modules have aluminum dividers between every cell with the aluminum bent and slightly overlapping the aluminum of the next cell divider. It is coated/painted, but is that enough to solve the problems mentioned here?


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## piwhy (Feb 8, 2011)

Batterypoweredtoad said:


> The A123 factory produced modules have aluminum dividers between every cell with the aluminum bent and slightly overlapping the aluminum of the next cell divider. It is coated/painted, but is that enough to solve the problems mentioned here?


Yes but that's maybe one of the reason why A123 had problems with these cells / modules and sold it on an alternative market...

Even if there is a thin insulated plasic film on each cell and each aluminium spacer is coated/painted, a little aluminium chip between both is enought to cause insulation problem !?


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## Ziggythewiz (May 16, 2010)

I don't understand why the pouches are conductive in the first place. Does that serve some purpose?


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## marc02228 (Jan 15, 2011)

Can't we just put some 0.3mm micra lamination (don't know if it's the correct translation) between the cells? 

It's not conductive but can transfer heat. 

That's that kind of foil or plate, which is put between a transistor and the heat sink for example.
Picture


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

What about coating the pouches with something like Glyptal?


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## piwhy (Feb 8, 2011)

I don't know precisely from where come the insulation problem (from touching edge between cells or directly between cells) but I'm pretty sure it's the origin of the problem.
As described in the nasa it's appear when the Al layer of the pouch cover is connected to the negative potential of the cell.
@marc228 ; Yes mylar/kapton film between each cell may be a solution to reinforce the insulation...


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## jr dragster (Oct 11, 2010)

piwhy said:


> I don't know precisely from where come the insulation problem (from touching edge between cells or directly between cells) but I'm pretty sure it's the origin of the problem.
> As described in the nasa it's appear when the Al layer of the pouch cover is connected to the negative potential of the cell.
> @marc228 ; Yes mylar/kapton film between each cell may be a solution to reinforce the insulation...


this may be the cause but some of the cells that where damaged the ones on either side where good ??


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## onegreenev (May 18, 2012)

Use Tyvek Envelopes for each cell to provide the protection against any contact with any other cell to prevent this from happening. Lightweight and very strong and breathable. Protects and contains. 

http://www2.dupont.com/Tyvek/en_US/index.html


Pete


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## Beemer (Jun 2, 2011)

According to that most helpful pdf.
Foreign Objects & Debris (FOD) within the cells are causing the internal shorting. Another serious quality control issue from A123.

Our only hope is the FOD internally burns away cycled with more gentle use and becomes non conductive.

Due to a scary moment I can vouch for the inside of the metallised Mylar pouch edge being conductive to one pole.
There is a very good reason we are supposed to clamp the tabs and not cut through the upper seal on the cells.


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## GerhardRP (Nov 17, 2009)

piwhy said:


> I don't know precisely from where come the insulation problem (from touching edge between cells or directly between cells) but I'm pretty sure it's the origin of the problem.
> As described in the nasa it's appear when the Al layer of the pouch cover is connected to the negative potential of the cell.


I read it that there was [external] electrical leakage between the negative pole and the aluminum layer along with leakage of electrolyte through microscopic defects in the internal insulating layer of plastic in the failed cells. There is supposed to be high resistance between the internal materials and the pouch.
I wonder if intentionally biasing the aluminum positive through say 100 Meg would prevent this problem.
Gerhard


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## GerhardRP (Nov 17, 2009)

Beemer said:


> Due to a scary moment I can vouch for the inside of the metallised Mylar pouch edge being conductive to one pole.


Was this event an arc, or a shock like from touching a charged capacitor?
G.


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## jr dragster (Oct 11, 2010)

so no warranty now that they went tits up. lol


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## Beemer (Jun 2, 2011)

GerhardRP said:


> Was this event an arc, or a shock like from touching a charged capacitor?
> G.


No this was serious, with smoke, blackening and burning.


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## Beemer (Jun 2, 2011)

madronaqing said:


> Will these DC motors run off a 7.2V NiCd battery pack?


A123, 20AH... Are LipoFe4 cells Not motors. Wrong thread?


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## rwaudio (May 22, 2008)

I forgot about posting pictures... the ugly stack attached...


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## onegreenev (May 18, 2012)

rwaudio said:


> I forgot about posting pictures... the ugly stack attached...


Interesting tag that shows that those are 900mAh and 3.7 volts. Looks like those got shorted on the outside edges. What was your charge current and end voltages on those cells? 

I have so far done 3.5C (71amps) up to 3.65 volts then terminate then add in an extra 3ah to 3.5 volts at 10amps with no issues. One cell was taken to 3.7 volts and gassed. I believe that cell was bad before I did the test. It is only an 11ah cell now. 

Did you have a BMS attached? What one and how was it powered? 

Pete 

Did you have those metal cooling fins between your cells? I am on the band wagon for pouch cells to be enclosed in tyvek envelopes to prevent touching and shorting. Something odd here.


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## onegreenev (May 18, 2012)

Well I looked again at the cells and no BMS  Clamped yes and assembled with the cells in the charge mode from the factory. Not bottom or top balanced. So when charged some cells were over charged and being clamped the gassing will cause enough high pressure that the seams of the pouches will burst and spill. That opens the door for air to gain access and begin to oxidize the inner part of the cells. 

It is highly important to bottom balance the cells and then do not charge above 3.5 volts and while charging you need to monitor the cells so you know for sure no cells go over 3.65 volts. If balanced well and checked for capacity you will be sure you will be ok to charge to 3.5 volts. Under high current do not go over 3.65 volts per cell. 

Remember that the cells have no safety check valve on the pouches. Do not overcharge them. These are very sensitive to overcharging. They can handle high charge currents but not high voltages.


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## Beemer (Jun 2, 2011)

onegreenev said:


> They can handle high charge currents but not high voltages.


Same for any such cell, surely. These A123's seem to have capacities all over the show.
On that thought Pete have you tried taking the charge to 3.3~3.35V and noting how much less loss of charge over any prior "norm", to say your 3.65V?

If the upper knee rises tight 'n fast, why bother going there if charge speed is no issue except at the very top? Laptops are a consideration when nearly every manufacturer has settled on 19V for six cells. (3.167V). Something to consider.


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## onegreenev (May 18, 2012)

Beemer said:


> Same for any such cell, surely. These A123's seem to have capacities all over the show.
> On that thought Pete have you tried taking the charge to 3.3~3.35V and noting how much less loss of charge over any prior "norm", to say your 3.65V?
> 
> If the upper knee rises tight 'n fast, why bother going there if charge speed is no issue except at the very top? Laptops are a consideration when nearly every manufacturer has settled on 19V for six cells. (3.167V). Something to consider.


When I did my fast current charges the voltage went to 3.5 within 2ah being put in. Then settled out at just above that and at around 3.65 it begins it's climb to the top. I could stop it at like 3.6. I was only able to put in another 3 or so ah after stopping the high current charge at 3.65. Then let it settle then charge up again at lower currents until it gets to 3.5 volts. That low current top off is where I could only put in another 3ah. If you only did a low current charge I'd say stop at 3.5 volts. It is in the upswing of the curve but not way up the curve. 

If you wanted you could charge to 3.6 high currents and only drain your cells to like 3 volts and consider them empty. Looking at the graphs I posted before you can see that below 3 volts things drop fast too. 

Charging in those ranges I'd give these cells a 15ah rating and all the useable power is in the flat range of the cell. You should discharge to where the cell is showing the down curve then a touch into that and on the charge side the same thing. 

Pete 

The only reason to go there is if you're testing to see how the cells behave in action. Then taylor your charge/discharge around that to keep your cells well within a safe zone.


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## rwaudio (May 22, 2008)

onegreenev said:


> Interesting tag that shows that those are 900mAh and 3.7 volts. Looks like those got shorted on the outside edges. What was your charge current and end voltages on those cells?
> 
> I have so far done 3.5C (71amps) up to 3.65 volts then terminate then add in an extra 3ah to 3.5 volts at 10amps with no issues. One cell was taken to 3.7 volts and gassed. I believe that cell was bad before I did the test. It is only an 11ah cell now.
> 
> ...


Charge current was 9A on a 3P group, charging to 3.45v with an EMW 10KW charger (off 120v). The EMW seems to hit the target voltage perfectly but actually terminates before the c/20 current, which isn't a bad thing. Some of the cells show the blotches where the aluminium layer has been eaten through. Many of them have whatever issue causes the casing to open up and spill electrolyte. All of the cells still work with decent IR, but reduced capacity, most in the range of 14-17Ah 

BMS was cell log 8's that were only powered during discharge.
I didn't have any metal fins, but I had a temperature probe in the center of the pack between cells and it never exceeded 32-33C during discharge.

I would agree that the tyvek envelope or other method of isolating each cell is required.


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## Roy Von Rogers (Mar 21, 2009)

Test all cells with Cellpro8 charger type to make sure cell is good..
Insert cells in to Ziplock bags, cut Ziplock at cell height, do not seal top.
Put cells in to aluminum box, sized to cell dimension.
Put aluminum spacer between each cell with moderate pressure, and rivet to box sides.
Install plastic top cover with slits to accommodate tabs.
Fasten plastic cover to box sides.
Install connectors to taps.
Discharge all cells to 3v, and recharge, count ah with JLD404 and monitor each cell until first one reached 3.5v, note amp hour count, that will be your max ah available.
Only use 80% of amp hours available, go to limp mode after 80%.


Roy


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## Beemer (Jun 2, 2011)

Considering I want a very simple, hassle free and totally uninvolved charging system plus these cell vagaries. I'm going to simply follow the edict given by CALB. That is never allow any cell to be *held* at a charge of 3.4V... Mainly for the Solar power guys but good for anyone with a simply fixed voltage supply to charge with. Also the savings on money going this route will be considerable. 3.35V is top charge at rest so I'm going for ~3.3V

lol to Roy.
How about three lines of Kapton tape across the tops of the cells where they conduct? Your poly bag method is simply not vibration resistant and will soon wear through. My cells slide into grooves cut into every other cell in 4mm Correx. Spacing all the cells at 8mm. Cells being 7.33mm at their thickest.


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## Roy Von Rogers (Mar 21, 2009)

Beemer said:


> Considering I want a very simple, hassle free and totally uninvolved charging system plus these cell vagaries. I'm going to simply follow the edict given by CALB. That is never allow any cell to be *held* at a charge of 3.4V... Mainly for the Solar power guys but good for anyone with a simply fixed voltage supply to charge with. Also the savings on money going this route will be considerable. 3.35V is top charge at rest so I'm going for ~3.3V
> 
> lol to Roy.
> How about three lines of Kapton tape across the tops of the cells where they conduct? Your poly bag method is simply not vibration resistant and will soon wear through. My cells slide into grooves cut into every other cell in 4mm Correx. Spacing all the cells at 8mm. Cells being 7.33mm at their thickest.


Re-read my post, especially the "modest pressure part.

Roy


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## Beemer (Jun 2, 2011)

Roy Von Rogers said:


> Re-read my post, especially the "modest pressure part.
> 
> Roy


Lol Roy. The great bottom balancer and low voltage charger Jack Rickard. Blew apart two sets of A123 batteries while they were entombed in a reinforced epoxy. You should of seen them! Believe me, nothing can stop them from expanding when one goes bad.

The (A123) company hit the floor and didn't bounce after finding a whole slew of their batches were bad when they found out one of their spot welding machines was causing internal damage.
What made it worse was their much acclaimed ISO rating was only used as a sales ploy instead of using it to mitigate a useful product recall.

You go bind them girlfriend.  Like trying to strangle poo.


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## Roy Von Rogers (Mar 21, 2009)

Beemer said:


> Lol Roy. The great bottom balancer and low voltage charger Jack Rickard. Blew apart two sets of A123 batteries while they were entombed in a reinforced epoxy. You should of seen them! Believe me, nothing can stop them from expanding when one goes bad.
> 
> The (A123) company hit the floor and didn't bounce after finding a whole slew of their batches were bad when they found out one of their spot welding machines was causing internal damage.
> What made it worse was their much acclaimed ISO rating was only used as a sales ploy instead of using it to mitigate a useful product recall.
> ...


Considering this post and the tone of it, I have nothing to discuss with you.

Your going on my ignore list.

Btw I'm also a Ham.

Roy


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## Beemer (Jun 2, 2011)

Roy Von Rogers said:


> Considering this post and the tone of it, I have nothing to discuss with you.
> 
> Your going on my ignore list.
> 
> ...


That won't change reality.


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