# SECA-SyNaPsE - Shaft drive DC project...



## DIYguy (Sep 18, 2008)

What I'm gonna use.... (don't throw too many stones. . . coz it's what I have)

- 6.7 Advanced DC series wound motor.
- Soliton1 (ya I know, but what the hell.)
- 32157 A123 cells.

It is shaft drive and will remain that way. One advantage I see right off the bat is that the motor will not hang out the side like a few DC conversions I looked at. 
One negative - looks like the gear ratio is somewhere around 2.85:1 (just by eye-balling it) Perhaps this is not low enough. . . and I don't know if gears are available. Well, it won't stop me. . . not much does. I could likely get some made if I decide on it.

I know next to nothing about motorcycles, so, don't be shy. You won't hurt my feelings. 

I think I will set up the battery to supply 211 volts nominal. . . although I may change my mind. I can limit the voltage to the motor. . . and will probably cap it around 170 I expect.

Should be a hoot....


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## frodus (Apr 12, 2008)

Sweet! Any idea on what setup you're going to use?

Is it Shaft drive? [oops, you just replied, yes it is]

Can the 6.7" motor handle that high of a voltage? Sounds like a good setup, 6.7" motor is the perfect size IMHO for a motorcycle.

2.85:1 is a bit low, but you may be able to find a small gearbox at surpluscenter.com


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## DIYguy (Sep 18, 2008)

frodus said:


> Sweet! Any idea on what setup you're going to use?
> 
> Is it Shaft drive? [oops, you just replied, yes it is]


Ya, and I'll be looking to pick ur brain Travis. I think u started with this motor in your bike, yes? (I'd rather have a 7 1/4" GE motor, but hey, it's what I have...


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## DIYguy (Sep 18, 2008)

The motor will sit something like this....

+, if I am going to use the Soliton, the only place it can go while still leaving enough room for batteries is where the tank was. At first I thought it was wacko... now, I'm really diggin' it. I cut off a few brackets to get it down a bit.
I call it the Solitank. I'm going to try and cut a swath out of the middle of the original tank and have the outside sections in place so only the top of the Controller is peeking out... lmao...


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## DIYguy (Sep 18, 2008)

I will use these cells from the booster packs. (The truck is getting some different goodies).


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

maybe drop the motor down and to the center of the bike
for better weight centralization and then you can get another
reduction in there, probably a Tbelt.
cool project


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

turn the controller upside down if you have to so the HV cables
are exiting safely downwards and not near the handle bars


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## frodus (Apr 12, 2008)

What motor is it?

The motor I used is good to 120V or so, not much more..... There's some things advancing the brushes just can't overcome....


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## DIYguy (Sep 18, 2008)

RIPPERTON said:


> maybe drop the motor down and to the center of the bike
> for better weight centralization and then you can get another
> reduction in there, probably a Tbelt.
> cool project


Ya that's a thought,.... but the connection in line with the drive shaft seems pretty straight fwd. I will think on it a while...


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## DIYguy (Sep 18, 2008)

RIPPERTON said:


> turn the controller upside down if you have to so the HV cables
> are exiting safely downwards and not near the handle bars


Oh no, I can't. It's just way too kewl like this. The motor cables are under the front of the seat. . .and I'll figure out something for the batt cables up front to shield them. Recall, half the gas tank will be stuck to the sides.... I hope... lol


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## DIYguy (Sep 18, 2008)

frodus said:


> What motor is it?
> 
> The motor I used is good to 120V or so, not much more..... There's some things advancing the brushes just can't overcome....


It's an A89-4001 . . which is pretty much the same as the A00-4009 I believe. We'll see where we can push the voltage. I kinda wish it was a GE, I know people have pushed the 7 1/4" to 200 volts. It shouldn't be too hard at least to view commutation while riding....


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## frodus (Apr 12, 2008)

I feel that the gear ratio is too low, should be a bit higher for a motorcycle. You'll pull tons of amps (not that the controller/batteries can't handle it).... and it'll cook that motor. I started with the stock sprocket on my motorcycle and a 12 tooth front (~3.67:1) and it was too low.... could smell the motor cooking itself.

Maybe a transmission shop could do a new gearset, but I bet you don't have a ton of room in that rear transfer case.


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## frodus (Apr 12, 2008)

DIYguy said:


> It's an A89-4001 . . which is pretty much the same as the A00-4009 I believe. We'll see where we can push the voltage. I kinda wish it was a GE, I know people have pushed the 7 1/4" to 200 volts. It shouldn't be too hard at least to view commutation while riding....


It's a 36V motor with a range up to 72V (2X nameplate voltage). Those larger motors are made for running higher voltages. But running it at ~210V, that's nearly 6X the nameplate. Maybe limit the output on the Soliton.

I could arc the motor at 96V..... Mine was a higher voltage K91-4003 equivalent.


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## DIYguy (Sep 18, 2008)

frodus said:


> I feel that the gear ratio is too low, should be a bit higher for a motorcycle. You'll pull tons of amps (not that the controller/batteries can't handle it).... and it'll cook that motor. I started with the stock sprocket on my motorcycle and a 12 tooth front (~3.67:1) and it was too low.... could smell the motor cooking itself.
> 
> Maybe a transmission shop could do a new gearset, but I bet you don't have a ton of room in that rear transfer case.


Ya, I think u r right. Steve suggests about 4:1. I know a local place called Rapid gear. They are awesome fast. Space could be an issue. Does anyone know if there there are different ratios available? Was this drive used on other similar bikes.... that sort of thing???


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## DIYguy (Sep 18, 2008)

frodus said:


> It's a 36V motor with a range up to 72V (2X nameplate voltage). Those larger motors are made for running higher voltages. But running it at ~210V, that's nearly 6X the nameplate. Maybe limit the output on the Soliton.
> 
> I could arc the motor at 96V..... Mine was a higher voltage K91-4003 equivalent.


I'm not planning to run it at 210 volts. See post # 2. I was planning to see what it will take by limiting from the Soliton. The battery will be 210 volts. I expect I can get it 170, but we'll see. The nameplate voltage doesn't mean a whole lot on these motors. Lower voltage usually means higher current. Higher bar count can help with voltage . . I dunno. It doesn't matter to me that much. If it pukes at 120, then that's what it will get. I will make some adjustability in the brush gear, like I have in other motors I've built.
My 9" was a 36 volt motor also... it liked 192 volts just fine. Keeping it kewl will be the challenge. And I think ur right about the gears... definitely will help


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## DIYguy (Sep 18, 2008)

frodus said:


> It's a 36V motor with a range up to 72V (2X nameplate voltage). Those larger motors are made for running higher voltages. But running it at ~210V, that's nearly 6X the nameplate. Maybe limit the output on the Soliton.
> 
> I could arc the motor at 96V..... Mine was a higher voltage K91-4003 equivalent.


Actually, all my large motors have the same voltage rating. 

How much advance did u have on you motor?

I know there are numerous reports (mostly on 9" motors) on ADC's not liking higher voltage, even with advanced brush timing. Thats why I wish it were a GE. 
Awe, what the heck. I'm no racer. I can build the battery in different configs but I may as well do it for higher voltage, since I can set it to the motor. It still has the same amount of energy in the pack.


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

Beware of the Vespa effect if you have the motor off away from the bike center line


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## DIYguy (Sep 18, 2008)

RIPPERTON said:


> Beware of the Vespa effect if you have the motor off away from the bike center line


OK enlighten me. I know Vespa is a scooter... I don't want my bike to act like a scooter...lol 
The two things that come to mind are the torque which is inline with the bike. . . and the potentially offset weight. There is room behind the motor for batteries... so some balance effect will be had there....


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

DIYguy said:


> OK enlighten me. I know Vespa is a scooter... I don't want my bike to act like a scooter...lol
> The two things that come to mind are the torque which is inline with the bike. . . and the potentially offset weight. There is room behind the motor for batteries... so some balance effect will be had there....


You watch a vespa from behind and it goes down the
road on an angle to countwrbalance the weight of the motor


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## DIYguy (Sep 18, 2008)

RIPPERTON said:


> You watch a vespa from behind and it goes down the
> road on an angle to countwrbalance the weight of the motor


AHHH ok! We actually don't have many Vespa's around here so, I never noticed. I think I can get it pretty balanced. I will fill up the other side with cells first. The weight is low also. I will take a look at it though. Thanks!


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## DIYguy (Sep 18, 2008)

Looks like I wasn't too far off. Ratio is 2.909:1

looks like I may be able to bump up to a 3.3:1 from the 82 XJ1100. All the others look different. Well, better than nothing.... lol

http://www.ebay.com/itm/YAMAHA-XJ11...Parts_Accessories&hash=item3a586f026a&vxp=mtr



Here is a list of the Yamaha shaft drive ratio's.
FINAL DRIVES.......YEAR/MODEL........................RING/PINION.....NOTES 
5JW-W4612-00-00....03-05 FJR1300.....................33/9, 3.667.....2,6,8
3P6-W4612-01-00....06-up FJR1300.....................33/9, 3.667.....2,6,8
1FK-46101-01-00....85-95 VMX1200 V-Max...............33/9, 3.667.....2,5,9
1FK-46101-02-00....96-97 VMX1200 V-Max...............33/9, 3.667.....2,5,9
1FK-46101-10-00....98-up VMX1200 V-Max...............33/9, 3.667.....2,5,9
4R0-46101-00-00....82 XJ1100......................33/10, 3.3......1,4,7
4H7-46101-00-00....80-81 XJ650.......................32/11, 2.909....3,5,9
5G2-46101-00-00....82-83 XJ650.......................32/11, 2.909....3,5,9
5G2-46101-01-00....85-86 XJ700 Maxim.................32/11, 2.909....3,5,9
5G2-46101-00-00....81-83 XJ750.......................32/11, 2.909....3,5,9
31A-46101-00-00....83 XJ900.......................32/11, 2.909....3,5,9
2H7-46101-00-00....78-80 XS1100......................33/10, 3.3......1,4,7
4R0-46101-00-00....81 XS1100......................33/10, 3.3......1,4,7
1J7-46101-N0-00....77-79 XS750.......................32/11, 2.909....2,4,8
3J2-46101-N0-00....80 XS850.......................32/11, 2.909....2,4,9
4R2-46101-N0-00....81 XS850.......................32/11, 2.909....2,4,9
5G2-46101-01-00....84-85 XV1000 Virago 1000..........32/11, 2.909....3,5,9
56W-46101-02-00....84-85 XV1000 Virago 1000..........32/11, 2.909....3,5,9
56W-46101-02-00....86-99 XV1100 Virago 1100..........32/11, 2.909....3,5,9
2NT-46101-00-00....87-88 XV535 Virago 535............32/11, 2.909....A
2NT-46101-00-00....90 XV535 Virago 535............32/11, 2.909....A
2NT-46101-00-00....93-00 XV535 Virago 535............32/11, 2.909....A
5G2-46101-01-00....84-85 XV700 Virago 700............32/11, 2.909....3,5,9
5G2-46101-01-00....88-97 XV750 Virago 750............32/11, 2.909....3,5,9
5EL-46101-00-00....99-up XVS1100 V Star 1100.........32/11, 2.909....3,6,9
5FB-Y4617-00-00....98-up XVS650 V Star 650...........32/11, 2.909....A
26H-46101-01-00....83-85 XVZ1200 Venture (Royale)....33/10, 3.3......1,4,7
1NL-46101-00-00....86-93 XVZ1300 Venture (Royale)....33/10, 3.3......2,5,9
4NK-46101-00-00....96-97 XVZ1300 Royal Star..........33/10, 3.3......2,6,9
4YE-46101-00-00....98-00 XVZ1300 Royal Star..........33/10, 3.3......2,6,9
4XY-46101-00-00....01-up XVZ1300 Royal Star..........33/10, 3.3......2,6,9


Notes:
1. fully splined pinion coupler
2. recessed splines on pinion coupler, drive shaft spacer required
3. unknown if pinion coupler is fully splined (recessed splines probable)
4. final drive shock mount
5. final drive shock mount relocation or R1 mono shock required
6. no final drive shock mount, R1 mono shock mod recommended
7. no pinion coupler oil passages
8. pinion coupler oil passages, RTV and washer required
9. unknown if pinion coupler oil passages exist (oil passages probable)
A. final drive pinion coupler not compatible with XS1100 drive shaft


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## DIYguy (Sep 18, 2008)

frodus said:


> I could arc the motor at 96V..... Mine was a higher voltage K91-4003 equivalent.


How many degrees advanced was your brush timing Travis?


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## frodus (Apr 12, 2008)

It had no advancing at all.


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## DIYguy (Sep 18, 2008)

frodus said:


> It had no advancing at all.


Oh ok. That's why u had issues above 96 volts. You probably should have had a few degrees advance even at that voltage.

Cheers


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## frodus (Apr 12, 2008)

That was for testing, I only ever ran it at 72V, I didn't need to advance it.


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## DIYguy (Sep 18, 2008)

frodus said:


> That was for testing, I only ever ran it at 72V, I didn't need to advance it.


Ah ok. That makes sense.


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## DIYguy (Sep 18, 2008)

So getting into the motor rebuild, I thought I would document it for those who may be interested. It's similar to other DC motor rebuilds, but worth the read for some.

Here are a few of the before shots. The basic motor. The DE and CE bells, and the armature.


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## DIYguy (Sep 18, 2008)

I didn't show the end bell removal, but it's pretty basic. You may or may not need a puller. I find most often I don't need one. 

Here is a shot of the badly worn commutator.


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## DIYguy (Sep 18, 2008)

If the comm is not excessively worn, you may re-surface it with garnet sand paper. I recommend only the use of garnet paper for several reasons, the garnet is soft, completely non-conductive and will more closely match the copper so that they will wear in together and leave a smoother less lined surface.
The aluminum oxide and silicon carbide abrasives can leave some conductive film and particulate behind. 
The surface of the comm will have less run out (A lathe cut using a diamond tool is the best) if you can wrap the paper around the comm and then pull straight and square with the comm while rotating the armature slowly (Roughly 600 rpm or less) and start with 80 grit garnet paper then use 150 grit and finish with 220 grit. Please be careful as the comm may have the tendency to grab the paper.
After the comm surface is finished then it is best if you clean the comm slots out (I use a razor blade) and then bevel the comm bars (a 45 degree bevel is best, so I use a square file that I hold at a 45 degree angle and file the 2 edges of the adjacent comm bars at the same time) (Be careful not to slip out of the slot and cause a scratch).
This will take some time, patience, and practice it will also raise a slight burr on the edge of each comm bar, so you will have to finish the reconditioning with some Scotch Brite that you hold on the comm with uniform pressure while rotating the armature slowly.
Then use some compressed air and blow out all of the dust and particulates.
This procedure will work for most comms unless the comm was damaged or has excessive run out and then will have to be lathe cut.

In my case, I had mine lathe cut since the wear was so deep. I still have to go over this one with 220 grit.


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## DIYguy (Sep 18, 2008)

Next, using a small puller, remove the bearing from the CE of the armature. The DE can be tapped out after removing the internal snap ring. 
Becareful not to loose any wave spring washers. There is usually one on the CE, but could be more than one.


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## DIYguy (Sep 18, 2008)

New bearings installed. Oh yes, I didn't mention, but you will notice the armature has a red appearance. This is Glyptal or equivalent. A high dielectric coating made for motor rebuilds. It has a resistance of 2200 volts per mil or something crazy like that. You'll will see other places I use this also. Be careful not to get it on the comm bars.


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## DIYguy (Sep 18, 2008)

Another mod I recommend is to drill and tap a hole in the CE end of the armature if there is not one already. . . for those motors with a single shaft extension that is. You will see why later and be glad u did.


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## DIYguy (Sep 18, 2008)

That's it for now on the motor. Next will be some mods to the Brush gear to take higher voltage (advancing procedure), coating sensitive areas to prevent flashover (zorching), as well as taking higher currents.

I ordered a new taper lock bushing and sprocket (which will get machined) in order to make the coupler for the drive shaft. Looks pretty straight forward. The motor will sit in line with the drive shaft, I've decided. Any off-set would require a redesign of the drive shaft itself, which is currently floating and was held in place with the prior gearbox. My motor, once mounted will perform the same function. The weight offset is negligible however, it will be counterbalance by the battery pack. 

My son started on the battery box mock up, but the motor must be mounted before continuing on this. Also some of the fairing glass needs to be in place.


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## DIYguy (Sep 18, 2008)

Ok did a bit more on the motor and coupler. Darn hockey tournaments again... lol
When operating these DC series wound motors at higher than spec voltage, you need to do a few things. One thing you Must do is to advance the brush timing to allow the motor to operate without zorching. . . or at least lessen the chance of this nasty arcing that happens at higher rpm/voltage. First you need to determine the rotational direction that the motor will be used in. In my case, the motor needs to rotate CWDE (clock wise drive end) in order to make the bike go fwd. So, looking then at the CE, this would be a CCW rotation. Brush timing needs to move against the direction of rotation. So, for this motor, planned to run up to about 170 volts, I will advance the brush timing 12 degrees. There are several ways to accomplish this and the choices depend a bit on motor design. In this case, since the brush ring has raised areas where the screws go through, plus the interference that is created when the brush to window orientation is compromised, I chose to re-drill the frame with new mount holes for the CE bell. Here are a few shots of this process. You can see I cleaned up the parts a bit and had the frame skimmed on a lathe, just for looks is all. Oh yes, I also opened up a hole in the centre of the CE bell. This will be used to access the hole I threaded into the end of the armature. . . and if u haven't guessed yet, will be used for a tacho generator that I will fab up.


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## DIYguy (Sep 18, 2008)

Next, u should coat the entire inside of the CE bell, except the bearing pocked and mount surfaces. Use Glyptal or equivalent. Two coats minimum. You should also to the brush ring and brush holders, including the springs! Mask the inside of the brush holders though. I haven't got a pic of that complete yet.


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## DIYguy (Sep 18, 2008)

AS for the coupler, I bought both a taper lock (which I like) and a finish bore sprocket. I ended up deciding on the finish bore sprocket, because it will just work better. I had to machine a centring relief and take the hub mass down a bit. Then transfer the holes. The teeth are still there, and they don't matter, but I will likely remove them. I still have to get the proper screws for this. But, it's almost done. You can see the original coupler and u joint. Then the sprocket I will use to adapt to my motor. . . plus some of the details.


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## electro wrks (Mar 5, 2012)

I'm concerned your putting a lot of work into a build without addressing Travis's concern about the overall reduction ratio being too low(~3vs.4-6:1). In my experience, this is recipe for cooking your motor. I've noticed several other builds like yours were not successful for this reason. Do you have a back-up plan if yours has this problem?


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## DIYguy (Sep 18, 2008)

electro wrks said:


> I'm concerned your putting a lot of work into a build without addressing Travis's concern about the overall reduction ratio being too low(~3vs.4-6:1). In my experience, this is recipe for cooking your motor. I've noticed several other builds like yours were not successful for this reason. Do you have a back-up plan if yours has this problem?


Thanks for chiming in. Yes, I conceded this point early on. . . and while I haven't been documenting anything much on it yet. . . I have done a bit of digging. In an earlier post I mentioned... 
Quote:
Originally Posted by frodus 
I feel that the gear ratio is too low, should be a bit higher for a motorcycle. You'll pull tons of amps (not that the controller/batteries can't handle it).... and it'll cook that motor. I started with the stock sprocket on my motorcycle and a 12 tooth front (~3.67:1) and it was too low.... could smell the motor cooking itself.

Maybe a transmission shop could do a new gearset, but I bet you don't have a ton of room in that rear transfer case.

Ya, I think u r right. Steve suggests about 4:1. I know a local place called Rapid gear. They are awesome fast. Space could be an issue. Does anyone know if there there are different ratios available? Was this drive used on other similar bikes.... that sort of thing???
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From the list of other shaft drive Yamaha's, I've been looking at the FJR1300 drive. Now it's not great, but to go from 2.9 to 3.67 should get me moving. The back up plan is to actually get a new gear set cut as mentioned above.

I've done several forced air set ups also on these motors and am planning some interesting mods that will see the heat shedding on this one to be significantly better than one with internal fan only cooling. Smaller spaces require a higher static pressure for moving the air. With this little motor, I think the best thing will be an air pump from a small 2.0 litre gas auto engine. They are like a vacuum cleaner in reverse. Just a bit noisy. The motor will have some additional air paths also.


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## DIYguy (Sep 18, 2008)

electro wrks said:


> I'm concerned your putting a lot of work into a build without addressing Travis's concern about the overall reduction ratio being too low(~3vs.4-6:1). In my experience, this is recipe for cooking your motor. I've noticed several other builds like yours were not successful for this reason. Do you have a back-up plan if yours has this problem?


As for the work, been very little so far. . . plus that is the whole point of this build, for my son to get some experience. Other than all the parts I had already, I've put less than $200 out. . and that includes the bike... lol.

Do you have a build? . . or what experience do you refer to regarding motors etc...

Cheers.


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## Yabert (Feb 7, 2010)

You advance the timing to pass up to 170v in the motor, but with your low gear ratio you will probably never pass more than 72-96v. I explain.

I based my comment on my experience with my D&D ES-15-6 motor (similar to yours, only longer). I pushed 600-700A at 50v and the small four brush don't appreciate (spark), so it a kind of maximum for amps. Considering than your motor is shorter, it will spin faster with the same voltage. My motor spin over 3000 rpm under load with only 70v. That give me 110 Km/h with 4.1:1 ratio.
So, if I guessing your will spin 3500 rpm with similar voltage and load, what speed you will reach with lower ratio and higher voltage?? 

And from what I learned from few years now, more commutating bars on the armature allow more voltage (more bars between two brush).

All this to say, 12° of advance is 24% less torque and with your low ratio, you will need all the torque advantage than a neutrally time motor can allow. Limit the motor voltage and enjoy the higher torque.


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## DIYguy (Sep 18, 2008)

Yabert said:


> You advance the timing to pass up to 170v in the motor, but with your low gear ratio you will probably never pass more than 72-96v. I explain.
> 
> I based my comment on my experience with my D&D ES-15-6 motor (similar to yours, only longer). I pushed 600-700A at 50v and the small four brush don't appreciate (spark), so it a kind of maximum for amps. Considering than your motor is shorter, it will spin faster with the same voltage. My motor spin over 3000 rpm under load with only 70v. That give me 110 Km/h with 4.1:1 ratio.
> So, if I guessing your will spin 3500 rpm with similar voltage and load, what speed you will reach with lower ratio and higher voltage??
> ...


Hey Yabert. Yes, it's true, I agree with all your points. Every degree is worth about 2% torque. As you say, it can be "re-claimed" through multiplication (gears). Yes, higher bar count will allow higher voltages. I've been thinking about this exact issue for a week or so. . . as I dig through the gear ratio issue. I actually put another set of timing holes in the frame a few days ago, at 6 degrees. 

The motor is ready to re-assemble, just have to see what ratio I will end up with. I'm waiting for some feedback from a local gear shop. My son took off the differential and wheel yesterday.


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## DIYguy (Sep 18, 2008)

So, assuming a clean sheet of paper, . . . what would be the recommended gear ratio with this motor? I'm interested in your idea Travis, since you had the same motor pretty much. Do you think 4.5 is enough? 

I've pretty much decided to build a reducer. . . . after mulling over all the options and crunching the ratios vs rpm. Without any experience on motorcycles, it looks to me that somewhere between 4.35 and 4.55 would be pretty decent. 

The reducer will allow me to place the motor in the middle (that should make u happy Ripper) and down lower between the frame rails. . . allowing better battery placement. I wasn't worried about the offset weight of the motor as I could have balanced it up pretty close with battery placement, however I kinda like where the motor will sit now.

Anyways, this unit will allow me to keep the shaft drive and still mess with ratios at will, which is nice. I hope the rear ring/pinion will be strong enough. I'm pretty sure I could fit one from a VMax or a FJR1300, both being 3.67:1 but more importantly stronger I expect. Perhaps I will still need to at some point, and if I do, I can get my ratio back by changing gears on the reducer. 

I'm planning chain drive. . .although I kinda like the idea of a belt. Chain is certainly easier to adjust for length. I suppose I could mess with the chain till I get the ratio I like, then go belt. Thoughts? . . .


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## Yabert (Feb 7, 2010)

I also think add a gear ratio is a good idea. Motor weight will be placed lower, torque at wheel will be higher.
The only comment I have about ratio, I can say than my motorcycle had awesome acceleration with 600-700A at motor terminals an 4.1:1 ratio.
So, I can easely imagine than your bike with 4,5:1 ratio and more voltage will perform very well.


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## DIYguy (Sep 18, 2008)

Yabert said:


> I also think add a gear ratio is a good idea. Motor weight will be placed lower, torque at wheel will be higher.
> The only comment I have about ratio, I can say than my motorcycle had awesome acceleration with 600-700A at motor terminals an 4.1:1 ratio.
> So, I can easely imagine than your bike with 4,5:1 ratio and more voltage will perform very well.


Thanks Yabert. That's a good data point. I will post some more pics soon.. I have the reducer almost done. I just have to get a spacer machined. Maybe tomorrow or Tuesday if I am lucky.

Cheers.


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## DIYguy (Sep 18, 2008)

Ok, here are some products to use for rebuilds. 
Glyptal (or equivalent)
Zinc - spray (high temp)
Glass cloth tape (H rated)
Nomex 410 paper.
High temp paint (one part epoxy in this case)

Spray the brush gear (mask inside of brush holders) complete. Also mask where brushes terminate ( in my case, I am using towers this time so, I coated this area on purpose.
Zinc spray is good for the inside of the yoke (frame or barrel). You can paint it if u want with high temp paint, but u must not coat the area where the pole shoe sits. This is an important electrical (magnetic) connection. I also spray the pole shoes with this. I first used it on pole shoe shims, cause I didn't want them corroding. It maintains electrical connection and protects from the rust and the element to a very high temp. Excellent stuff!
Glass cloth for wrapping coils and conductors (prior to dipping)
Nomex paper for behind/inside the coils. . . and other spots.
I luv the KBS products. I first found it for coating the vehicle frame. Known as Rust Seal. They sell a three step process. Rust Blast, A cleaner (forget name, but it is awesome at getting grease out of clothes and just about anything else), there are other products like frame coat and top coat. Check out their web site. It's a one part epoxy. Don't let it dry on your skin . . or u have to wait till it wears off. Nothing will remove it. I happened to get this can of clear by mistake. So, I thought I would use it.


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## DIYguy (Sep 18, 2008)

Some process pics.....


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## DIYguy (Sep 18, 2008)

Now you can see why I drilled and tapped the hole in the armature and the hole in the middle of the CE bell. Now you can sneak in and mount the reluctor for the tacho-generator. This works great for those motors without an aux shaft. Don't worry about the hole . . you can fill most of it with the spacer. . . besides the bearing behind it is sealed. (just think of the DE . . it is fully exposed.


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## DIYguy (Sep 18, 2008)

Here is some work in progress on the reducer. I needed another shaft with a double bearing mount . . and I was going to make one. Then I remember rebuilding the spindle mount for my mower deck a few years ago. Bingo. $49. I just have to make a spacer for it. I will then put heli-coils in the Al plate.
This amount of offset will position the motor right between the frame tubes and slightly lower than them . . which should be good I think.


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## electro wrks (Mar 5, 2012)

DIYguy said:


> Here is some work in progress on the reducer. I needed another shaft with a double bearing mount . . and I was going to make one. Then I remember rebuilding the spindle mount for my mower deck a few years ago. Bingo. $49. I just have to make a spacer for it. I will then put heli-coils in the Al plate.
> This amount of offset will position the motor right between the frame tubes and slightly lower than them . . which should be good I think.


Alright, your on the right track! Don't forget you need to slot one set of holes for chain (belt) tension adjustment. Also, if you can make both shafts cantilevered and you decide to go with a toothed belt drive(no lube required, quieter, lasts longer), you won't have to unbolt a lot of hardware to change the belt.

The less expensive chain drive is the way to go for determining the ultimate ratio. Then, you won't have to switch out a bunch of belt sprockets that can cost 3-4X the chain sprockets!

I'm working on similar set-ups -not much to post yet.


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## DIYguy (Sep 18, 2008)

electro wrks said:


> Alright, your on the right track! Don't forget you need to slot one set of holes for chain (belt) tension adjustment. Also, if you can make both shafts cantilevered and you decide to go with a toothed belt drive(no lube required, quieter, lasts longer), you won't have to unbolt a lot of hardware to change the belt.
> 
> The less expensive chain drive is the way to go for determining the ultimate ratio. Then, you won't have to switch out a bunch of belt sprockets that can cost 3-4X the chain sprockets!
> 
> I'm working on similar set-ups -not much to post yet.


I was thinking that I would not slot either end for tension adjustment, rather use a tensioner. Thoughts?

I am planning to use a Fenner tensioner like this one. . . http://www.grainger.com/Grainger/FENNER-DRIVES-Selfadjusting-tensioner-2ZRU2

I could only make the motor end adjustable as the spindle end must stay aligned with the drive shaft/coupler.


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## Yabert (Feb 7, 2010)

A chain tensioner on the loose side of the chain is the way to go.

Sad thing about chain is the surprising noise at low speed. But the increasing torque at rear wheel (dangerous?) will easily cover this small disavantage.


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## DIYguy (Sep 18, 2008)

Yabert said:


> A chain tensioner on the loose side of the chain is the way to go.
> 
> Sad thing about chain is the surprising noise at low speed. But the increasing torque at rear wheel (dangerous?) will easily cover this small disavantage.


Ya . . I guess I'll find out. I suppose with ICE motorcycles, u don't really hear the chain noise so much.... If it gets annoying, and I figure out the ratio, I could always change the whole thing to belt. You know, I've heard some geared belts that are not really quiet also... . but I do like the idea.


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## electro wrks (Mar 5, 2012)

Yabert said:


> A chain tensioner on the loose side of the chain is the way to go.
> 
> Sad thing about chain is the surprising noise at low speed. But the increasing torque at rear wheel (dangerous?) will easily cover this small disavantage.


I've found tensioners to usually be a PITA. You're adding an expensive noise maker(in the case of chain) to the drive and, when they fail, they can take the rest of the drive with them. Maybe you don't have room for moving the motor around with adjusting slots and the tensioner is necessary? 

Also, other bikes with regen may not work with the spring-type tensioner referenced. The reversed force may push out the tensioner, loosening the chain. A fixed tensioner would have to be heavy duty enough to handle the increased load.


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## DIYguy (Sep 18, 2008)

electro wrks said:


> I've found tensioners to usually be a PITA. You're adding an expensive noise maker(in the case of chain) to the drive and, when they fail, they can take the rest of the drive with them. Maybe you don't have room for moving the motor around with adjusting slots and the tensioner is necessary?


I think I could do either at this point. I'm not sure simple slotted holes are good enough though. . .I mean it should have threaded set push or pull added I would think... ???

I didn't think the tensioner would be an issue, but can't say I speak from experience. What did you have trouble with? Did the chain have good alignment?

Oh, as for expensive.. no not really. Like $65 I think.



electro wrks said:


> Also, other bikes with regen may not work with the spring-type tensioner referenced. The reversed force may push out the tensioner, loosening the chain. A fixed tensioner would have to be heavy duty enough to handle the increased load.


Ya, I could see this being an issue for a regen set up... of course mine won't be. Although I have seen tensioners that pull from both sides to the middle without a mounting point even... 

Perhaps I'll see how good I can make the tension prior to adding a tensioner... ?


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## DIYguy (Sep 18, 2008)

So, got the spacer made. I drilled a bunch of lightening holes in it after this pic also.

Then assembled it on the bench....


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## DIYguy (Sep 18, 2008)

Couple shots of my son learning how to install heli-coils in aluminum....


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## DIYguy (Sep 18, 2008)

Here is a shot of how it will sit (close) in the bike. It will actually sit about 1.5" lower than this . . . but gives an idea.


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## DIYguy (Sep 18, 2008)

While we are waiting for a few machining items, we decided to do some surgery on the tank/controller... 

I just love this part..... lol


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## Yabert (Feb 7, 2010)

.. Really nice ''gas tank''. I like it!


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## DIYguy (Sep 18, 2008)

Yabert said:


> .. Really nice ''gas tank''. I like it!


lol thanks, . . lol, it's kinda silly, but I like it too. It actually fits very well. Lots of finish work to do but. . . u know, it's definitely different. . . lol


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Can't believe I missed this one until now! I have this bike sitting in a barn, Seca 650 Turbo, mine's an 83, still in ICE form, though not running. One of my favorite bikes, bit of a dog off the line, but once the boost built up it was lots of fun 
I like the path you're on and the choices you ended up making, though with the silent shaft drive the chain and sprocket will need to go eventually  I'd also like to see you drop the idler and just find a way to tension the chain/belt without it. That's what I did on the AMPhibian, used slotted mounting holes and a bracket with bolts to push the motor and tension the belt.
This is before the belt swap:


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## electro wrks (Mar 5, 2012)

JRP3 said:


> Can't believe I missed this one until now! I have this bike sitting in a barn, Seca 650 Turbo, mine's an 83, still in ICE form, though not running. One of my favorite bikes, bit of a dog off the line, but once the boost built up it was lots of fun
> I like the path you're on and the choices you ended up making, though with the silent shaft drive the chain and sprocket will need to go eventually  I'd also like to see you drop the idler and just find a way to tension the chain/belt without it. That's what I did on the AMPhibian, used slotted mounting holes and a bracket with bolts to push the motor and tension the belt.
> This is before the belt swap:


 Ah, the voice of more recent experience. Notice that JRP3's primary(motor) and secondary shafts are cantilevered- making it a cinch to switch to a toothed belt, if desired. One way to do this with your bike (with a below battery, forward mounted motor) is to have separate mounting plates for the motor and jack-shaft. This allows a open space between the two - to easily slide off and out the sprockets and belt.

One option for a jack-shaft is to use the output shaft and bearing housing from your ICE(or eBay): 



You'll have to trim off the end of the shaft. Also, somehow, weld on and machine a sprocket mounting flange about where the bevel gear is. Unfortunately, the housing (and possible the shaft) will have to be machined for a second bearing. Don't try to use just the one bearing-it won't be enough support. You might be able to make something similar with your mower spindle. One benefit of the stock housing, if you can position it right, is the ability to use the mounting groove for the stock swing arm bellows.

I'm working on a universal ap jack-shaft to simplify this type of build. If it works out, I may try to market it next year.

Also, note on JPR3's web page the replacement t-belt sprockets are bigger diameter than the chain units they replace. You need to have more of the rubber or polyurethane teeth engaged to match the strength of the chain sprocket teeth. Many times, people use too small t-belt sprockets and have problems with slippage and wear.


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## Jimdear2 (Oct 12, 2008)

May I suggest that anyone looking for a well supported shaft in a small package look into the cartridge bearings and shafts used in the drive trains of the many Gator type vehicles. as well as smaller on road vehicles. The big vehicles have them too but they are . . . BIG.

The driven hubs and flanges are usually a cartridge with a double row ball bearing in a easily mountable housing with a drive flange pressed through it then the drive shaft goes through and pulls everything into correct preload when torqued. 

Most of the material used in these units is mild steel which allows paths to many modifications.

Jim


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## DIYguy (Sep 18, 2008)

JRP3 said:


> Can't believe I missed this one until now! I have this bike sitting in a barn, Seca 650 Turbo, mine's an 83, still in ICE form, though not running. One of my favorite bikes, bit of a dog off the line, but once the boost built up it was lots of fun
> I like the path you're on and the choices you ended up making, though with the silent shaft drive the chain and sprocket will need to go eventually  I'd also like to see you drop the idler and just find a way to tension the chain/belt without it. That's what I did on the AMPhibian, used slotted mounting holes and a bracket with bolts to push the motor and tension the belt.
> This is before the belt swap:


Hey JRP. Ha. . ! How about that, the same bike. lol YEs, I am attempting to do this without a tensioner for the moment. Not sure how it will work out yet. The video of your belt drive sounds very loud. . but I know how videos are often misleading.


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## DIYguy (Sep 18, 2008)

electro wrks said:


> Ah, the voice of more recent experience. Notice that JRP3's primary and secondary shafts are cantilevered- making it a cinch to switch to a toothed belt, if desired. One way to do this with your bike (with a below battery, forward mounted motor) is to have separate mounting plates for the motor and jack-shaft. This allows a open space between the two - to easily slide off and out the sprockets and belt.
> 
> One option for a jack-shaft is to use the output shaft and bearing housing from your ICE(or eBay):
> 
> ...


Hey there. Thanks for the comments. I'm not exactly sure what you mean . . but I won't be adding a jack shaft regardless. Nor will I be using the original pinion drive from the trans. Why would I want to add another chain set? 
JRP's set up is different in that it drives motor to trans and then to axle shafts. I could still manage adjustability with what I have if I decide. It's really not too difficult to remove either sprocket as it stands. I don't see this as a regular occurrence anyways . .. only perhaps in the beginning. Once or twice. . . if at all.
If I add any more components, I will sacrifice battery space, which I need all of to achieve my goals.


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## DIYguy (Sep 18, 2008)

Jimdear2 said:


> May I suggest that anyone looking for a well supported shaft in a small package look into the cartridge bearings and shafts used in the drive trains of the many Gator type vehicles. as well as smaller on road vehicles. The big vehicles have them too but they are . . . BIG.
> 
> The driven hubs and flanges are usually a cartridge with a double row ball bearing in a easily mountable housing with a drive flange pressed through it then the drive shaft goes through and pulls everything into correct preload when torqued.
> 
> ...


Hi Jim. Hope all is well. Thanks for chiming in. Do you have any links to what you propose? I did spend some time looking in this direction, thinking I could get the gear reduction as well as a drive connection method. Mostly what I found were differential gear/drives going to two axles. They were all too large for what I could fit. My challenge was to get the reduction in the smallest space possible.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Yeah the belt is much quieter than the chain in real life, plus I don't have lube flying around, and no chain stretch to deal with. Also, the belt noise is more of a "hum" than the "rattle" you get with chain. I recommend a belt where ever possible, but you do need to be able to put a good amount of tension on it.


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## DIYguy (Sep 18, 2008)

JRP3 said:


> Yeah the belt is much quieter than the chain in real life, plus I don't have lube flying around, and no chain stretch to deal with. Also, the belt noise is more of a "hum" than the "rattle" you get with chain. I recommend a belt where ever possible, but you do need to be able to put a good amount of tension on it.


OK thanks. I will sort out the ratio with chain and see how it works/sounds, and go from there. I do like the idea of a belt.....


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## DIYguy (Sep 18, 2008)

Here is the motor reducer pretty much done. I found that I could get a bit of chain adjustment by using one mounting screw as a pivot point and slightly slotting the other three. I played with the tension with the motor running. Too tight and too loose are both excessively noisy. Just a slight bit of slack is best.


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## DIYguy (Sep 18, 2008)

Here I have it sitting almost in the right place. I had to chop a few bits to get it in there. The drive shaft is actually suppose to have a bit of pre-load on it as it is spring loaded fwd. I could make it work like it is, but I think I will add a bit of a spacer to load the drive shaft as original. Also, if I ever want to go to belt drive, I won't have enough room without the spacer. . . as the belt/pulleys will be wider. 
Also a pic showing elevation. I like it in this position. Just a bit lower than the frame to give more room for batteries, but not too low. I'll make a splash guard of course.


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## tylerwatts (Feb 9, 2012)

Looking great dude! Really enjoying seeing this bike come together! Keep up the excellent workmanship.


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## DIYguy (Sep 18, 2008)

tylerwatts said:


> Looking great dude! Really enjoying seeing this bike come together! Keep up the excellent workmanship.


Thanks Tyler! Gotta take a break for x-mas so. . . Merry X-Mas everyone!


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## powerhouse (Apr 1, 2011)

I dont post too often but I just wanted to tell you that I really dig this build! You took some time to write up a short tutorial on rebuilding a motor, which I thought was pretty informative. 

Keep up the awesome work, I expect great things from this bike!


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## DIYguy (Sep 18, 2008)

powerhouse said:


> I dont post too often but I just wanted to tell you that I really dig this build! You took some time to write up a short tutorial on rebuilding a motor, which I thought was pretty informative.
> 
> Keep up the awesome work, I expect great things from this bike!


Thanks very much, I appreciate that..


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