# [EVDL] I have an EV!!!! (And some questions)



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Sweet! My truck came in this afternoon! Drove around the neighborhood a
bit and got my first EV grin. Good times.

It's an '84 Chevy S10 w/ curtis 1231, adc 9", 22 nearly dead US-145 6v
batts (the other two from the original 144v pack are totally dead), and
a K&W BC20 charger.

Those last two items bring me to my big question. A quick google of that
charger number gets me a pdf that suggests to me that this charger is
only meant for packs up to 108 volts, or 120 volts with a seperate
buck/boost unit. Am I missing something here, or is this charger totally
inadequate for this pack? Could this be why the batteries are just about
toast now after 7500 EV miles (according to original owner)?

Also, when I drove around briefly this afternoon, I noticed that if I
pushed the throttle to hard (not to say gave it too much gas...) the
volts guage would bottom out and the rear end would shake and bang a
bunch. This seemed bad, and as I drove around it happened at less and
less throttle. Is this just an artifact of a bad pack that can't draw
many amps any more? Or something else? Any insight you guys have would
be good.

This was a good decision. I need batteries, a 12v battery (no headlights
while accellerating ;-) and a power brake kit, and maybe a better
charger, and my grin will be even bigger.

Thanks for the help

Hunter.


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

OK, so I ran the charger for nearly 8 hours and afterward my pack read
145v, vs. the 135 it had when it rolled off the flatbed or 120 when it
limped home banging the rear-end. I was pleasantly surprised, as I
didn't think the BC20 was going to have the juice to get the pack up
there. Maybe I'm not understanding that thing right. But anyway, I
jumped in and went for a drive, and things were much better with the
higher voltage; I could push the throttle all the way without the rear
end slamming, and acceleration was much quicker. The radio still goes
out under accel, but with no aux battery that doesn't surprise me much.

Still interested in what you guys think about the charger...should it be
able to handle this 132v pack? What about a 144v pack when I replace
these dead batteries? Also, how do I know when this thing is finished
charging? Does it just turn off? As I say I plugged it in around 11:30
last night, then unplugged after 6 this morning...the ammeter stayed
right at 6 amps the whole time and it was still whirring away. Is it OK
to leave it unattended while charging? And finally, if the verdict is
that this charger isn't adequate for the pack...have a recommendation
for a good cheap charger? Naturally I'd love to spring for a PFC, but I
just don't think it's in the cards right now...it'd be close to half
what I paid for the whole truck, and I still need batteries and would
like to upgrade to power brakes.

Thanks everybody

Hunter (grinning)





> Hunter Cook wrote:
> > Sweet! My truck came in this afternoon! Drove around the neighborhood a
> > bit and got my first EV grin. Good times.
> >
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

[No message]


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Thanks Dave.

I'm in Springfield, Missouri. The truck was originally from Michigan. I
want just what you guessed, range and normal performance, and have
planned so far to use more 6v floodeds. I thought the regulators were
unnecessary for flooded packs? I heard that AGMs need them because long
strings of them tend to charge unevenly, but that strings of the
floodeds didn't have such problems? How much do "simple" regulators
cost?

While I'm on the subject, does anybody have experience with the
Energizer brand GC2 6v flooded batteries they have at Sam's Club? They
say 230ah on the side, and they're pretty cheap ($62) relative to what
I've seen...but of course I know nothing of their cycle life.
Alternatively, anybody got a recommendation for cheap golf cart
batteries, preferably close to SW Missouri?

Thanks

Hunter.



> dave cover wrote:
> > Congratulations Hunter, enjoy the ride. Where are you located?
> >
> > You need to decide how you want to drive your EV to help determine your next
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

The BC-20 doesn't shut off, it runs forever. It has some current and 
voltage regulation, but not anything that you'd really call charge control. 
Its GFI also trips when the batteries get a little dirty and/or damp - and 
if you bypass the GFI to stop that nuisance, you have a potentailly 
hazardous condition because it doesn't provide isolation from the mains.

AFAIK, it's not suited to batteries over 120 volts. I've used one at 128 
volts, but that's about as far as I'd push it. 

I'd like to tell you where to find a smart charger that will baby your 
batteries and give you the best possible range and costs $100, but there's 
no such animal. If you can't even pop for a PFC, which is pretty cheap for 
the amount of grunt it has, then you're probably best off to do what you can 
with the BC-20. That probably means dropping your pack voltage down to 120 
or 108 volts.

If you're not going to use a smart charger, don't get VRR batteries, stick 
with flooded batteries. And, again, if cost is a primary consideration, 
flooded golf car batteries are the cheapest option. VRRs can easily cost 5-
10 times as much per mile of life.

Enjoy your EV grin!

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Very simple fix, Just install new pack of 144 volt batteries. If you use =

the same US T145's, they require at least 7.5 V charge per battery for a =

normal charge or call bulk charging at a battery temperature of 80 F.

The total charging voltage should be 7.5 V x 24 =3D 180 volts. For a =

equalization charge, the charge voltage is about 7.78 V x 24 =3D 186 volts.

The minimum discharge for these batteries are about 5.5 V per battery or 5.=
5 =

V x 24 =3D 132 volts. So your existing battery charger cannot not even cha=
rge =

at the minimums.

Your battery volt gage should be red line at about 132 volts, where you =

should never go below that voltage. Its best to never take them below 144 =

volts. The setting voltage after charging should be about 6.83 volts or =

6.83 V x 24 =3D 163.9 volts.

When you add a initial load, it is common for these batteries to drop to 6.=
4 =

volts or 6.4 x 24 =3D 153.6 volts. Applying a constant load of not more th=
an =

100 battery amps, the batteries will normally drop to 6.16 volts or 6.16 V =
x =

24 =3D 148 volts.

You can have the battery sag to the 132 voltage low limit, as long it comes =

up to or just above 144 volts. If your batteries are at 144 volts, this is =

about the 50 percent depth of discharge (DOD) which is the minimum your =

batteries should be discharge to.

If the lower DOD is kept at about the 40 to 20 percent range, they will las=
t =

longer. I can get about 10 years, by discharging down to about 25% DOD and =

then do the normal charge, and a equalization charge about once a month or =

when the battery voltage get about of 2 percent of each other.

A good motor design for a EV, is where the name plate voltage of the motor =

would be at the minimum low limit of the batteries which would be at 132 =

volts for a 144 volt pack. Normally motors have a service factor of 1.15 t=
o =

1.5 SF where they can take a over voltage.

My motor has a SF of 1.5 SF, so if is a 130 volt motor, it can take a =

voltage of 130 x 1.5 =3D 195 volts. My motor is rated at 165 volts which i=
s =

the minimum battery low limit on a 180 volt pack, but can run at 225 volts=
. =

My motor has plenty of power, even if the battery pack is down to 165 volts.

If the name plate voltage of the motor is higher than the battery voltage, =

then you may not have the performance you need, but this depends on what =

type of controller you have. The battery voltage could be higher than the =

design motor voltage. With my Zilla by Caf=E9 Electric, I can use up to a 3=
00 =

volt battery pack, but program the voltage limits into it.

As for the battery charger, I like to use a charger that can charge any =

battery voltage from a 12 volt battery to over 400 volts. Use any AC input =

voltage from 60 to 250 VAC at any ampere from 0.001 to 55 amps. Has =

multiple programs for any type of charger level and have input controls for =

equalization regulators or Battery Management Systems (BMS). I do not use =

BMS for my batteries yet, because after 6 years, the batteries are all in =

with 0.02 volts of each other on my T-145's batteries.

This type of charger which is a Power Factor Control type (PFC) can be seen =

at: http://www.manzanitamicro.com

You normally will use a E-meter with this charger. My EV came with a =

separate bank of AC input and DC output meters in a separate rack panel and =

another set on the dash. Using a set of AC input meters, you can see the =

percentage difference between the AC input and DC outputs. If you charge a=
t =

50 amps DC you can actually be on a good magnetic 50 amp circuit breaker, =

where the AC amperes may be at 45 amps which is a 90 percent power factor.

Roland








----- Original Message ----- =

From: "Hunter Cook" <[email protected]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, September 28, 2007 10:53 PM
Subject: [EVDL] I have an EV!!!! (And some questions)


> Sweet! My truck came in this afternoon! Drove around the neighborhood a
> bit and got my first EV grin. Good times.
>
> It's an '84 Chevy S10 w/ curtis 1231, adc 9", 22 nearly dead US-145 6v
> batts (the other two from the original 144v pack are totally dead), and
> a K&W BC20 charger.
>
> Those last two items bring me to my big question. A quick google of that
> charger number gets me a pdf that suggests to me that this charger is
> only meant for packs up to 108 volts, or 120 volts with a seperate
> buck/boost unit. Am I missing something here, or is this charger totally
> inadequate for this pack? Could this be why the batteries are just about
> toast now after 7500 EV miles (according to original owner)?
>
> Also, when I drove around briefly this afternoon, I noticed that if I
> pushed the throttle to hard (not to say gave it too much gas...) the
> volts guage would bottom out and the rear end would shake and bang a
> bunch. This seemed bad, and as I drove around it happened at less and
> less throttle. Is this just an artifact of a bad pack that can't draw
> many amps any more? Or something else? Any insight you guys have would
> be good.
>
> This was a good decision. I need batteries, a 12v battery (no headlights
> while accellerating ;-) and a power brake kit, and maybe a better
> charger, and my grin will be even bigger.
>
> Thanks for the help
>
> Hunter.
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
> =


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Hi Hunter,

And congrats. It's a good thing those batteries are already toast. You'd be putting a major hurting on them driving that way.

The Curtis has a maximum and minimum operating voltage. You are probably dragging the pack below the minimum usable voltage and the controller is cutting back your amps to keep the pack up at the minimum voltage, hence the shake, rattle 'n roll.

Re: Your charger- There was just a long thread on these but I didn't follow it. Check the archives. If the charger proves inadequate, someone may be able to direct you to a 2-charger solution, or if you have more money available you might look at a PFC or a Zivan charger. Russco also makes affordable chargers that will be properly matched to your pack.

When you get your new pack and charger situation worked out, don't pound the throttle. With new batteries after charging, your finishing voltage should be -about- 173 volts. (about 2.4 volts per cell, so 7.2 volts per battery) Your voltage at 80% depth of discharge should be -about- 138 volts. 

So that means-

When driving, try very hard not to draw your pack below 138 volts while accelerating, and try not to finish driving below 138 volts. 

138 volts works out to 1.91 volts per cell (each batt having 3 cells obviously). You really don't want to pull much lower than that because if you have any cells out of balance, you risk a cell or battery reversal (going below 0 volts, into negative territory). You'll ruin the battery very quickly.

I have a 128 volt pack of 8v batts. Charging finish is 155. For me, the math works out to not go below 115-112 volts. I never accelerate harder than that, and I've never had a finish-driving voltage lower than 128 volts. Even then, I've done it only like twice.

If you knew all of this already, I apologize. If I have said anything incorrect, I hope someone KNOWLEGEABLE steps up and corrects me. ;-)

Cheers,
Rich A.


Message: 31Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2007 23:53:46 -0500From: Hunter Cook <[email protected]>Subject: [EVDL] I have an EV!!!! (And some questions)To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <[email protected]>Message-ID: <[email protected]>Content-Type: text/plain Sweet! My truck came in this afternoon! Drove around the neighborhood abit and got my first EV grin. Good times. It's an '84 Chevy S10 w/ curtis 1231, adc 9", 22 nearly dead US-145 6vbatts (the other two from the original 144v pack are totally dead), anda K&W BC20 charger. Those last two items bring me to my big question. A quick google of thatcharger number gets me a pdf that suggests to me that this charger isonly meant for packs up to 108 volts, or 120 volts with a seperatebuck/boost unit. Am I missing something here, or is this charger totallyinadequate for this pack? Could this be why the batteries are just abouttoast now after 7500 EV miles (according to original owner)? Also, when I drove aro!
und briefly this afternoon, I noticed that if Ipushed the throttle to hard (not to say gave it too much gas...) thevolts guage would bottom out and the rear end would shake and bang abunch. This seemed bad, and as I drove around it happened at less andless throttle. Is this just an artifact of a bad pack that can't drawmany amps any more? Or something else? Any insight you guys have wouldbe good. This was a good decision. I need batteries, a 12v battery (no headlightswhile accellerating ;-) and a power brake kit, and maybe a bettercharger, and my grin will be even bigger. Thanks for the help Hunter.
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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Hunter,

I have a KW BC20 and they are spec-ed for a 96V pack. The booster
only gets you up to 108V. I don't see how it will adequately charge a
144V pack at all.

There are other issues with this charger, mostly that *you* have to
figure out how long to charge, not the charger. To do this properly
you need an e-meter that measures the energy that you've used, and
then charge it back up to 105% of that (that number is from memory,
someone correct me it that's wrong.)

Or you can *guess* how long to charge it. This is what I did, being a
newbie that did not listen to others on the list, and it's a mistake
to do this (both ignore the list and also the guessing!) I have been
undercharging all along, and now my batteries have lost capacity that
cannot be brought back because they've sulfated. They aren't toast,
and I can get to work OK, but I have problems with that last hill
coming home - lost some range and shortened the life of the batteries.

I would advise a new charger for both these reasons. I am likely
going to get one myself before too long. The Zivan for example is
cheaper than the really good ones mentioned already, and while it has
a rep for overcharging the sealed batteries - with floodies you can
add water more often than you might otherwise. It is programmed at
the factory or dealer for your pack voltage and type.

Another thing mentioned was regulators for floodies. I don't have
them - wish I did. There's no off the shelf regs for floodies that I
know of. But what I do instead is monitor the batteries (using the
PakTrakr) and separately charge the ones getting weak with a 6V Soneil
charger I got for maybe $40. This has kept my pack from dying
*really* young instead of like, middle-aged 

Enjoy the grin!!!! De

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

If you have a E-meter and if you remove about 50 ah, then replace about 55 
ah or that is about 10% more than you took out.

If you can check the specific gravity of the batteries, than when they are 
all up to 1.275 sg, this is about 100 percent charge. If you E meter is 
still reading any ah then 0.00, then reset it to 0.00 ah and this will be 
very close.

Any time you are going to work on any voltage system that is go to disrupt 
the E-meter, then its best to charge the battery to 100 percent or 1.275 sg 
and reset the E-meter to zero. Then you can kill the EV power and when 
restore the AH reading will be at 0.00 ah.

Roland


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Deanne Mott" <[email protected]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Saturday, September 29, 2007 9:43 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] I have an EV!!!! (And some questions)


> Hunter,
>
> I have a KW BC20 and they are spec-ed for a 96V pack. The booster
> only gets you up to 108V. I don't see how it will adequately charge a
> 144V pack at all.
>
> There are other issues with this charger, mostly that *you* have to
> figure out how long to charge, not the charger. To do this properly
> you need an e-meter that measures the energy that you've used, and
> then charge it back up to 105% of that (that number is from memory,
> someone correct me it that's wrong.)
>
> Or you can *guess* how long to charge it. This is what I did, being a
> newbie that did not listen to others on the list, and it's a mistake
> to do this (both ignore the list and also the guessing!) I have been
> undercharging all along, and now my batteries have lost capacity that
> cannot be brought back because they've sulfated. They aren't toast,
> and I can get to work OK, but I have problems with that last hill
> coming home - lost some range and shortened the life of the batteries.
>
> I would advise a new charger for both these reasons. I am likely
> going to get one myself before too long. The Zivan for example is
> cheaper than the really good ones mentioned already, and while it has
> a rep for overcharging the sealed batteries - with floodies you can
> add water more often than you might otherwise. It is programmed at
> the factory or dealer for your pack voltage and type.
>
> Another thing mentioned was regulators for floodies. I don't have
> them - wish I did. There's no off the shelf regs for floodies that I
> know of. But what I do instead is monitor the batteries (using the
> PakTrakr) and separately charge the ones getting weak with a 6V Soneil
> charger I got for maybe $40. This has kept my pack from dying
> *really* young instead of like, middle-aged 
>
> Enjoy the grin!!!! De
>
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
> 

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Hunter Cook wrote:
> 
> > Sweet! My truck came in this afternoon! Drove around the
> > neighborhood a
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Richard Acuti wrote:
> > The Curtis has a maximum and minimum operating voltage. You are probably
> > dragging the pack below the minimum usable voltage and the controller is
> > cutting back your amps to keep the pack up at the minimum voltage, hence
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Maybe a good solution would be to get a lee hart battery balancer. It
takes some time with 24 batteries, but it can charge the pack through
the balancer so it can finish off what the other charger cannot. When
you do get a better charger you will still have a good balancer.

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

David-

Thanks a ton for all this information on the charger. The only thing I'm
confused about is this: if this charger can't do a 144v pack (and I
certainly trust you on that) how could it bring my pack up from the low
120's up to 145v Saturday morning? Is that because a 108v pack would
have a finishing voltage up that high? 

Not that the answer to that question really matters, I guess; clearly, I
need a new charger. I wasn't trying to be unrealistic on the
"inexpensive" requirement...I understand they are a bit pricey by
nature. But $1500+ vs. $700 or so for a Russco is a big difference to
me. Don't get me wrong, I can totally see how cool a PFC would be. Still
thinking about it...

Anyway, thanks again for the diagnosis.

Hunter





> David Roden wrote:
> > The BC-20 doesn't shut off, it runs forever. It has some current and
> > voltage regulation, but not anything that you'd really call charge control.
> > Its GFI also trips when the batteries get a little dirty and/or damp - and
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Thanks Roland! This is fantastic information on my batteries; I
definitely didn't have a clue. I've got some comments/questions inline:

> The minimum discharge for these batteries are about 5.5 V per battery or 5.5 
> V x 24 = 132 volts. So your existing battery charger cannot not even charge 
> at the minimums.

I've got the same question for you that I posed to Dave...how did that
charger take me from 120 to 145v yesterday?
> 
> Your battery volt gage should be red line at about 132 volts, where you 
> should never go below that voltage. Its best to never take them below 144 
> volts. 

Do you mean "never deplete the pack to where it shows less than 132
under no throttle" or "never accelerate hard enough for your volts guage
to dip under 132" ? When I accelerate the volts guage dips *way* down,
like 10-20v. Of course, my pack's bad and I'm undercharging it. Somehow
I'm strangely comfortable with these facts...

> 
> A good motor design for a EV, is where the name plate voltage of the motor 
> would be at the minimum low limit of the batteries which would be at 132 
> volts for a 144 volt pack. Normally motors have a service factor of 1.15 to 
> 1.5 SF where they can take a over voltage.
Hrm. Well, it's an ADC 9" series wound. I didn't know any of the above,
but it's the same pack voltage and motor as a whole ton of EV's at
austinev.com, so I figured it was all good. Still, thanks for the info.

> As for the battery charger, I like to use a charger that can charge any 
> battery voltage from a 12 volt battery to over 400 volts. Use any AC input 
> voltage from 60 to 250 VAC at any ampere from 0.001 to 55 amps. Has 
> multiple programs for any type of charger level and have input controls for 
> equalization regulators or Battery Management Systems (BMS). I do not use 
> BMS for my batteries yet, because after 6 years, the batteries are all in 
> with 0.02 volts of each other on my T-145's batteries.
> 
> This type of charger which is a Power Factor Control type (PFC) can be seen 
> at: http://www.manzanitamicro.com

Boy those things are cool. Darn expensive, but cool. Do you know if the
Russco's and/or Zivan's can do the "equalization charge" you were
talking about?
> 
> You normally will use a E-meter with this charger. My EV came with a 
> separate bank of AC input and DC output meters in a separate rack panel and 
> another set on the dash. Using a set of AC input meters, you can see the 
> percentage difference between the AC input and DC outputs. If you charge at 
> 50 amps DC you can actually be on a good magnetic 50 amp circuit breaker, 
> where the AC amperes may be at 45 amps which is a 90 percent power factor.

Hehe. I've got an analogue voltmeter, ammeter, speedometer, and
odometer. There's a tach control installed, and I have the guage in a
bag, but the previous owner never got around to installing it, and
obviously I've been way too busy abusing the batteries. Maybe I should
get an E-meter.

I really appreciate you breaking it all down for me. You really filled
in all the missing numbers in my understanding of batteries. Thanks a
lot.

Hunter

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> > The minimum discharge for these batteries are about 5.5 V per battery or 5.5
> > V x 24 = 132 volts. So your existing battery charger cannot not even charge
> > at the minimums.
>
> I've got the same question for you that I posed to Dave...how did that
> charger take me from 120 to 145v yesterday?

A 12V battery is charged to roughly 14.4V for float charge, depending
on the batteries. So a 120V battery pack has a float charge of 144V,
which is where you ended up at after 8 hours. Your 144 volt pack
should go to roughly 172V on a full charge, though, so they're being
undercharged.

When he said your charger can't even do the minimums, he might have
thought 120V referred to the peak voltage instead of nominal voltage.

> >
> > Your battery volt gage should be red line at about 132 volts, where you
> > should never go below that voltage. Its best to never take them below 144
> > volts.
>
> Do you mean "never deplete the pack to where it shows less than 132
> under no throttle" or "never accelerate hard enough for your volts guage
> to dip under 132" ? When I accelerate the volts guage dips *way* down,
> like 10-20v. Of course, my pack's bad and I'm undercharging it. Somehow
> I'm strangely comfortable with these facts...

The no-throttle voltage should never go below 132. Under lots of
acceleration, the voltage may dip down, but that's mainly because of
the internal resistance of the batteries and cable; it isn't good, but
it isn't as bad for your batteries as using them while the no-throttle
voltage is low.

-Morgan LaMoore

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Thanks Richard!

Comments inline:



> Richard Acuti wrote:
> > Hi Hunter,
> >
> > And congrats. It's a good thing those batteries are already toast. You'd be putting a major hurting on them driving that way.
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Deanne, thanks so much for the K&W-specific info. A couple
comments/questions inline:



> Deanne Mott wrote:
> > Hunter,
> >
> > I have a KW BC20 and they are spec-ed for a 96V pack. The booster
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Thanks for the clarifications, Morgan. Some comments inline:

> A 12V battery is charged to roughly 14.4V for float charge, depending
> on the batteries. So a 120V battery pack has a float charge of 144V,
> which is where you ended up at after 8 hours. Your 144 volt pack
> should go to roughly 172V on a full charge, though, so they're being
> undercharged.

All right, that makes sense. My pack is currently 132 (2 batteries out
of the 144v pack have been removed due to deadness) so I'm getting a bit
closer to a proper charge, but still not enough. Do you think I should
pull 2 more out until I get the new charger?

> The no-throttle voltage should never go below 132. Under lots of
> acceleration, the voltage may dip down, but that's mainly because of
> the internal resistance of the batteries and cable; it isn't good, but
> it isn't as bad for your batteries as using them while the no-throttle
> voltage is low.

Ok, I follow. My pack is just in real bad shape, causing the big dips under accel.

Thanks again for helping me out.

Hunter

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

[No message]


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

One more thing, You did not mention how much battery ampere and motor ampere 
you are pulling. A good EV indications will be a amp meter shunt between 
the batteries and controller to read the battery ampere and another amp 
meter shunt between the controller and the motor to read the motor amperes.

You may find while you pull about 200 motor ampere, the battery ampere is 
about 50 amps. Could be about 3 to 1 or 4 to 1 ratio at the lower rpm's or 
speeds between 1 and 30 mph. As the rpm increases, the motor amperes will 
about match the battery amperes in some controllers.

It is very important to watch your motor amps, so that you do not go over 
the rated continuous ampere rating of the motor for too long. It is normal 
for the battery ampere to be about 30 to 50 amps for city driving and may go 
above 100 amps at 50 to 60 mph.

When you get your new battery pack and the correct charger voltage, you 
should try to hold the battery ampere under 100 amps, better yet at 50 
amperes for the first 100 charge cycles. These type of batteries take about 
a 100 charge cycles to bring them up to the full ampere-hour during this 
break in period.

The T-145's will increase about another 16 AH during this break in period. 
Do not charge a too high rate yet, where it could blow the off the pasted 
plates. You only want the pasted plates to open up slowly which then gives 
you more surface area.

One time I went to a battery lab, where these type of plates were in a clear 
container. They was checking out different charging current from 10 amperes 
all the way up to 200 amps using different type of plate grid patterns and 
inner ties. You can see that some battery plates had the paste blow 
completely off the upper third of the plates which was closet to the top tie 
bars only after 100 charge cycles at 100 amps and apply load at 300 amps.

A good battery grid pattern was the one that had wide spacing on the top and 
narrow grid patterns on the bottom with tie bars on the bottom to equalized 
the current through out the plate. This type of plate stood up much better 
and gave a more even wear pattern.

With my EV, I am not going anywhere fast for a long distance, so 100 cycles 
took me about 4 years to complete while driving about 5 miles a day.

A E-meter will only show battery amperes. The first ten years of driving 
this EV, I only had a only battery ampere meter and was all ways pulling 180 
battery amps at 170 volts at 60 mph. I found latter when I install a motor 
ampere meter, the motor was pulling 200 amps which was 25 amps over the 
continuous motor amp rating. A field winding connection finally open up 
after 25 of running.

Roland


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Hunter Cook" <[email protected]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Sunday, September 30, 2007 7:48 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] I have an EV!!!! (And some questions)


> Thanks Richard!
>
> Comments inline:
>
>


> Richard Acuti wrote:
> > > Hi Hunter,
> > >
> > > And congrats. It's a good thing those batteries are already toast. You'd
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

The charger is design for 18 batteries or 108 volt pack, the charger should 
be able to charge a 6 volt battery to 7.8 V x 18 = 140.4 volts. To do 
this, the charge voltage has to be a bit higher. My 6 volt smart charger is 
at 9 volts open circuit. I have found that some standard 12 volt charges 
may be as high as 20 volts open circuit.

My old charger for my 180 volt pack had a open circuit voltage of 315 volts, 
which would be 10.5 volts per 6 volt battery, but when the charger is 
connected to the battery pack, it would pull the voltage down to the battery 
discharge voltage and then the charge voltage would rise to the set point I 
would dial in.

Roland


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Hunter Cook" <[email protected]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Sunday, September 30, 2007 7:24 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] I have an EV!!!! (And some questions)


> Thanks Roland! This is fantastic information on my batteries; I
> definitely didn't have a clue. I've got some comments/questions inline:
>
> > The minimum discharge for these batteries are about 5.5 V per battery or 
> > 5.5
> > V x 24 = 132 volts. So your existing battery charger cannot not even 
> > charge
> > at the minimums.
>
> I've got the same question for you that I posed to Dave...how did that
> charger take me from 120 to 145v yesterday?
> >
> > Your battery volt gage should be red line at about 132 volts, where you
> > should never go below that voltage. Its best to never take them below 
> > 144
> > volts.
>
> Do you mean "never deplete the pack to where it shows less than 132
> under no throttle" or "never accelerate hard enough for your volts guage
> to dip under 132" ? When I accelerate the volts guage dips *way* down,
> like 10-20v. Of course, my pack's bad and I'm undercharging it. Somehow
> I'm strangely comfortable with these facts...
>
> >
> > A good motor design for a EV, is where the name plate voltage of the 
> > motor
> > would be at the minimum low limit of the batteries which would be at 132
> > volts for a 144 volt pack. Normally motors have a service factor of 
> > 1.15 to
> > 1.5 SF where they can take a over voltage.
> Hrm. Well, it's an ADC 9" series wound. I didn't know any of the above,
> but it's the same pack voltage and motor as a whole ton of EV's at
> austinev.com, so I figured it was all good. Still, thanks for the info.
>
> > As for the battery charger, I like to use a charger that can charge any
> > battery voltage from a 12 volt battery to over 400 volts. Use any AC 
> > input
> > voltage from 60 to 250 VAC at any ampere from 0.001 to 55 amps. Has
> > multiple programs for any type of charger level and have input controls 
> > for
> > equalization regulators or Battery Management Systems (BMS). I do not 
> > use
> > BMS for my batteries yet, because after 6 years, the batteries are all 
> > in
> > with 0.02 volts of each other on my T-145's batteries.
> >
> > This type of charger which is a Power Factor Control type (PFC) can be 
> > seen
> > at: http://www.manzanitamicro.com
>
> Boy those things are cool. Darn expensive, but cool. Do you know if the
> Russco's and/or Zivan's can do the "equalization charge" you were
> talking about?
> >
> > You normally will use a E-meter with this charger. My EV came with a
> > separate bank of AC input and DC output meters in a separate rack panel 
> > and
> > another set on the dash. Using a set of AC input meters, you can see 
> > the
> > percentage difference between the AC input and DC outputs. If you 
> > charge at
> > 50 amps DC you can actually be on a good magnetic 50 amp circuit 
> > breaker,
> > where the AC amperes may be at 45 amps which is a 90 percent power 
> > factor.
>
> Hehe. I've got an analogue voltmeter, ammeter, speedometer, and
> odometer. There's a tach control installed, and I have the guage in a
> bag, but the previous owner never got around to installing it, and
> obviously I've been way too busy abusing the batteries. Maybe I should
> get an E-meter.
>
> I really appreciate you breaking it all down for me. You really filled
> in all the missing numbers in my understanding of batteries. Thanks a
> lot.
>
> Hunter
>
> _______________________________________________
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> 

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> From: "Hunter Cook" <[email protected]>
> Thanks for the clarifications, Morgan. Some comments inline:
> Ok, I follow. My pack is just in real bad shape, causing the big dips
under accel.
>
> Thanks again for helping me out.
>
> Hunter

If you have the money to replace all the batteries (as you indicate) then
that might be the best way to do. However, you might find salvaging some
batteries is worth the effort. After all, after buying your batts, one would
hope you check them out and make sure none are out-of-spec with the others.

>From what I'm reading, you've pulled cells out of the total pack and the EV
still moves. To me that indicates you have no low-volt shut down of your
pack. Also... you are charging the remaining pack at the voltage set for all
the cells???

Perhaps I'm misunderstanding this all.

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Roland, as always, your post was enlightening. Some comments/questions:



> Roland Wiench wrote:
> > One more thing, You did not mention how much battery ampere and motor ampere
> > you are pulling. A good EV indications will be a amp meter shunt between
> > the batteries and controller to read the battery ampere and another amp
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Morgan-

Well, it was not I who removed the batteries from the pack, but rather
the previous owner. But no, it does not seem like there is any
low-voltage shutoff, unless it was darn low, like <5v. As for charging
the short pack with the original voltage, things are actually better now
than they were, apparently. As per a different discussion in this
thread, it turns out that my charger (K&W BC20) is only supposed to do
up to 108v packs. So the pack has probably been chronicly undercharged,
which would explain why it's in such bad shape after only 7500 miles
(although it's been a long calendar life as well). Anyway, the charger
can get a pack up to about 145v, so it's actually much better that the
pack is only 22 batteries right now. I'm considering pulling out another
2 batteries and seeing if I can give the remaining 20 a "proper" charge.
What do you think? Regardless, I am now in the market for a more
appropriate charger. Probably a Zivan or Russco.

As for replacing the pack, I certainly want to do so soon, and I
budgeted that when I bought the truck. But on the other hand, I think
I'm going to poke around with these batteries for at least a while. I
will need a couple more when I get my new charger, but I'm thinking I
might be able to get a couple used ones from a golf course or cart shop
that might more or less match the performance of the ones I've got.
Anyway, I don't need to go particularly far, and this way I'm not
abusing anything expensive.

Thanks

Hunter

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

I'd bet the shunt is on your battery. The flooded batteries don't like high
amperage draws. I keep the draw below 250Amps so as not to beat up the
batteries. I don't know what good use I'd make of motor amps. Probably would
be interesting to see the relation to battery amps. I use the battery amps
to control my right foot until the state of charge gets lower, Then I use
the voltmeter to control my right foot.

On 9/30/07, Hunter Cook <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> Roland, as always, your post was enlightening. Some comments/questions:
>
>


> Roland Wiench wrote:
> > > One more thing, You did not mention how much battery ampere and motor
> > ampere
> > > you are pulling. A good EV indications will be a amp meter shunt
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Hello Hunter,

It may be reading the motor ampere. I would check to see where the shunt is 
located at.

A battery charger with a built in amp meter does not read the load between 
the batteries and the controller. If it's a E-meter, then the E-meter will 
have the shunt between the batteries and controller and battery charger is 
connected to the same shunt that is on the controller side, it will then 
read the battery amperes discharge to controller and to the motor and will 
read the battery charger ampere, ampere hour, wattage, battery temperature, 
estimate time remaining to a certain discharge point, percentage of charge 
and many other functions.

The battery charger fuse or circuit breaker only protects the charger for 
the maximum AC input. There should be a large main bolt in fuse or circuit 
breaker in about the 400 amp range between the first take off point of the 
battery and the battery shunt.

If this is a fuse, it will be a bolt in one mounted on insulated stand offs 
which is call a semi-conductor fuse, design for for high power circuits, 
that can take a surge of 1000 of amps for a second or two. My fuse by 
Bussman will take 250,000 amperes for a certain milli second of time. The 
overcurrent is design for the current surges, but will blow if the circuit 
is short circuit at the fuse amp rating.

For any motor circuits, transformers, and any current device that surges, I 
also use small cartridge fuses in the Fusetron and Limitron type, that can 
take this overcurrent.

Signing Off,

Roland




----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Hunter Cook" <[email protected]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Sunday, September 30, 2007 9:41 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] I have an EV!!!! (And some questions)


> Roland, as always, your post was enlightening. Some comments/questions:
>
>


> Roland Wiench wrote:
> > > One more thing, You did not mention how much battery ampere and motor
> > > ampere
> > > you are pulling. A good EV indications will be a amp meter shunt
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "storm connors" <[email protected]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Sunday, September 30, 2007 10:09 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] I have an EV!!!! (And some questions)


> I'd bet the shunt is on your battery. The flooded batteries don't like 
> high
> amperage draws. I keep the draw below 250Amps so as not to beat up the
> batteries. I don't know what good use I'd make of motor amps. Probably 
> would
> be interesting to see the relation to battery amps. I use the battery amps
> to control my right foot until the state of charge gets lower, Then I use
> the voltmeter to control my right foot.


If I was to draw that high 250 ampere on my batteries during the low rpm 
acceleration up to 50 mph, the motor ampere will go over 800 amps, which is 
way over my rated Warp 9 motor of 199 amp continuous.

The maximum I may take the motor ampere doing acceleration is about 400 amps 
with a battery amperes of 125 amps. One time I had 200 amps on my batteries 
one time way back in 1985 for about 2 mile run and most of the battery posts 
lost about 25 in.lbs. of torque and one post melted back. The motor would be 
at about 600 amps, cause one of the field winding connections to come apart.

Roland


>
> On 9/30/07, Hunter Cook <[email protected]> wrote:
> >
> > Roland, as always, your post was enlightening. Some comments/questions:
> >
> >


> Roland Wiench wrote:
> > > > One more thing, You did not mention how much battery ampere and motor
> > > ampere
> > > > you are pulling. A good EV indications will be a amp meter shunt
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

I suspect that pumping enough amps through a series motor to exceed its one-hour rating would deplete your battery pack anyway.



----- Original Message ----
From: storm connors <[email protected]>
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, October 1, 2007 12:09:49 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] I have an EV!!!! (And some questions)

I'd bet the shunt is on your battery. The flooded batteries don't like high
amperage draws. I keep the draw below 250Amps so as not to beat up the
batteries. I don't know what good use I'd make of motor amps. Probably would
be interesting to see the relation to battery amps. I use the battery amps
to control my right foot until the state of charge gets lower, Then I use
the voltmeter to control my right foot.

On 9/30/07, Hunter Cook <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> Roland, as always, your post was enlightening. Some comments/questions:
>
>


> Roland Wiench wrote:
> > > One more thing, You did not mention how much battery ampere and motor
> > ampere
> > > you are pulling. A good EV indications will be a amp meter shunt
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

[No message]


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

I'm coming into this thread late, so forgive me if I missed something 
that was said earlier.



> Hunter Cook wrote:
> > ...have planned so far to use more 6v floodeds.
> 
> That's a good choice until you have more experience (or money).
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> On 30 Sep 2007 at 19:48, Hunter Cook wrote:
> 
> > But $1500+ vs. $700 or so for a Russco is a big difference to
> > me. Don't get me wrong, I can totally see how cool a PFC would be. Still
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> > On 30 Sep 2007 at 19:48, Hunter Cook wrote:
> >
> > > But $1500+ vs. $700 or so for a Russco is a big difference to
> > > me.
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

David and All,
Here we go again! Are you referring to the Zivan beating up AGM batteries with no regulators? We are talking about floodies, and I have gotten over 20,000 miles out of T-145's with a Zivan NG3. The floodies required very little water because the final stage current is low, blah, blah, blah. The Zivan DOES need to be setup properly for the pack!
Suck Amps,
BB

>Date: Mon, 01 Oct 2007 12:21:18 -0400
>From: "David Roden" 
>
<much snippage>
>
>Zivan might work for you, but they are also not user programmable and tend 
>to beat up the batteries. Made in Italy last time I looked. No official 
>rep on this list that I know of.

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

I've often wondered if there was a way around the beating up the 
battery issue. What if you specified the charger for a 144 pack of 8v 
GC batteries even though you intended to use them on 6v GC batteries? 
There may be better options for the Optima profile too, some smaller 
AGM with a similar profile (but lower finish amps.)

To Hunter - I don't think this is the way to start out. You would be 
ordering a charger an locked into the type of battery and system 
voltage. To start there and then order the "wrong" one is something 
I'd let someone with experience try first (I'd prefer someone with 
*more* than me, and I've built 2 EVs and worked on more.) I'd 
recommend the Manzanita Micro PFC-20 charger but I also have an older 
Russco 18-120 SO charger and it works (just not as fast.)

Paul Gooch



> David Roden wrote:
> 
> > Zivan might work for you, but they are also not user programmable
> > and tend
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

So...wanna sell that Russco?



> Paul wrote:
> > I've often wondered if there was a way around the beating up the
> > battery issue. What if you specified the charger for a 144 pack of 8v
> > GC batteries even though you intended to use them on 6v GC batteries?
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

BTW, everybody, my entry on the austinev albumn got approved. Here it
is: http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/1359

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Paul (and All),
It's funny that you mention this. The Zivan comes with an EPROM chip that has the pack voltage and algorithm programmed in (three stage IUI for floodies). Initially I had T-875 8V floodies in the RX-7 back around '99, but later switched to 6V floodies in the truck (after wasting money on another 8V floody pack!). The Zivan would shut down due to an error during the first stage, or bulk phase, which was taking longer for the higher Ah pack, but the Zivan tech told me which rotary switch to change and I corrected the time-out error myself. 
Suck Amps,
BB


>Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2007 17:11:31 -0700
>From: Paul 
>
>I've often wondered if there was a way around the beating up the 
>battery issue. What if you specified the charger for a 144 pack of 8v 
>GC batteries even though you intended to use them on 6v GC batteries? 
>There may be better options for the Optima profile too, some smaller 
>AGM with a similar profile (but lower finish amps.)

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