# [EVDL] Open source controller design



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

[No message]


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Morgan LaMoore wrote:
> 
> >A few things:
> >
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Dan,

1.
in all the circuits diagrams I have seen the line from the MCU PWM pin 
to the IGBT driver has a pullup resistor to the 5v rail, an inline 
resistor and a couple of caps to ground. (I am no expert so check this 
with someone who is)


2.
is there any reason your not using a single high amp IGBT with something 
like Cornell Dubilier SCD capacitors?

Looks easier to fabricate to me.





> Dan Frederiksen wrote:
> > some modest progress to report
> >
> > a basic core prototype circuit has been fleshed out:
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> 1.
> in all the circuits diagrams I have seen the line from the MCU PWM pin
> to the IGBT driver has a pullup resistor to the 5v rail, an inline
> resistor and a couple of caps to ground. (I am no expert so check this
> with someone who is)

Good idea - all of that may be a bit much, but a pull-up is definitely
necessary, and some filtering is probably a good idea.

> 2.
> is there any reason your not using a single high amp IGBT with something
> like Cornell Dubilier SCD capacitors?
>
> Looks easier to fabricate to me.

It also costs a lot more. A 400A IGBT can easily cost hundreds of
dollars, or you can use a bunch of small IGBTs for much cheaper.

-Morgan LaMoore

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Dan Frederiksen wrote:
> > a basic core prototype circuit has been fleshed out:
> > www.zev.dk/diagram3.gif
> 
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Thomas Ward wrote:
> 
> >in all the circuits diagrams I have seen the line from the MCU PWM pin
> >to the IGBT driver has a pullup resistor to the 5v rail, an inline
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Lee Hart wrote:
> 
> >IGBTs and diodes don't parallel well. There will be enough differences
> >between off-the-shelf parts that some will hog most of the current (and
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Dan Frederiksen wrote:
> >> IGBTs and diodes don't parallel well.
> 
> > I'm hoping that with derating, cooling and the claimed tight
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Lee, when will you put your words to practice,
not tell others how to do things, but do it yourself?
Jack



> Lee Hart wrote:
> > Dan Frederiksen wrote:
> >
> >>>IGBTs and diodes don't parallel well.
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Jack Murray wrote:
> > Lee, when will you put your words to practice,
> > not tell others how to do things, but do it yourself?
> 
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Jack Murray <[email protected]> wrote:
> > Lee, when will you put your words to practice,
> > not tell others how to do things, but do it yourself?
> > Jack
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Lee Hart wrote:
> 
> >I *have* built controllers! Most other parts of EVs as well (chargers,
> >DC/DC converters, instrumentation, battery managment systems, etc.)!
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Morgan LaMoore wrote:
> 
> >I also think that the power electronics shouldn't go on a circuit
> >board. Ideally, I think they should be something like SOT-227 package
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Lee Hart wrote:
> >> I *have* built controllers! Most other parts of EVs as well (chargers,
> >> DC/DC converters, instrumentation, battery managment systems, etc.)!
> 
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Dan Frederiksen" <[email protected]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Saturday, October 06, 2007 8:26 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Open source controller design




> > Lee Hart wrote:
> >
> >>I *have* built controllers! Most other parts of EVs as well (chargers,
> >>DC/DC converters, instrumentation, battery managment systems, etc.)!
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Lee Hart wrote:
> 
> >I have, on the EV list, many times. But I don't sell them as products,
> >or publish complete "how to" details because I'm not happy with the
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Morgan LaMoore wrote:
> >> I also think that the power electronics shouldn't go on a circuit
> >> board. Ideally, I think they should be something like SOT-227 package
> >> screwed onto a heatsink with busbar or thick wire connecting them.
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

As you know from all the things you HAVE DONE, the key is in the 
details, but you don't and really can't provide them without a confirmed 
working design.
Given the amount of time you spend on the list, take 10% of it and get a 
working controller design to share.

I think the same standard to others to do something and not just talk 
applies equally to the list gods as to the newbies, that is just fair 
and honest.

Jack



> Lee Hart wrote:
> > Jack Murray wrote:
> >
> >>Lee, when will you put your words to practice,
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Jack Murray <[email protected]> wrote:
> > As you know from all the things you HAVE DONE, the key is in the
> > details, but you don't and really can't provide them without a confirmed
> > working design.
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Dan Frederiksen trolled:
>> then why haven't you made them public?
>> 
Jack Murray trolled:
> Given the amount of time you spend on the list, take 10% of it and get a
> working controller design to share.
> 
Lee,

This should go without saying, but thank you for your advice to me and 
your contributions to the EV community as a whole.

Please don't let the trolls bother you.

Thanks again,
Cory Cross

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

From: Jack Murray
> As you know from all the things you HAVE DONE, the key is in the 
> details, but you don't and really can't provide them without a confirmed 
> working design. Given the amount of time you spend on the list, take
> 10% of it and get a working controller design to share.

See the EV list archive for July 2001. I posted the complete schematic
and board layout for the Petrosonics controller. You can see it at
www.austinev.org/evalbum/tech/petroson.pdf

This is a 24vdc 150amp controller, but has all the bits and pieces needed for an EV sized controller like the Curtis (current limit, overtemp protection, open or shorted pot detection, adequate safety margin for the parts, etc.) Note that it takes six 55v 41a 0.024ohm MOSFETs.

--
"Excellence does not require perfection." -- Henry James
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart-at-earthlink.net

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Lee Hart wrote:
> 
> > See the EV list archive for July 2001. . . .
> ---------------------------------------
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Ouch. Those pics have datestamps from 7 years ago.

-----Original Message-----
I looked at all the pictures at <http://www.sunrise-ev.com/pics>

Encouraging!

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

of course lee provides lots of good advice and valuable insights,
everyone knows that. But the subject is an open source controller design,
and on that subject, the advice is less than useful, its is in fact 
misleading, because the problem is not solved by 2-minute emails,
it takes hard work, debugging, testing, and on this front, I'll suggest 
Lee get it done himself. If he doesn't I understand completely,
you just can't have it both ways, appear to be helping, and yet not 
doing anything.
Jack



> Morgan LaMoore wrote:
> > Jack Murray <[email protected]> wrote:
> >
> >>As you know from all the things you HAVE DONE, the key is in the
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

[No message]


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Yeah Lee, why are you wasting time on your day job? You don't really need
to pay the rent or put food on the table. Fasting is good for the sole.

Quit your day job and spend all of your time developing controllers for
cheep ass freeloaders. Oh, and finish up the Sunrise.

I'm sure you can last two months or so before you starve and they kick you
out of your house. Plenty of time to do all this free work for others and
save them a bundle of money, and that is what is really important.

So stop wasting your time trying to give them usefull advice.

No seriously, stop wasting your time, and the list bandwidth, on these
cretins.

> of course lee provides lots of good advice and valuable insights,
> everyone knows that. But the subject is an open source controller design,
> and on that subject, the advice is less than useful, its is in fact
> misleading, because the problem is not solved by 2-minute emails,
> it takes hard work, debugging, testing, and on this front, I'll suggest
> Lee get it done himself. If he doesn't I understand completely,
> you just can't have it both ways, appear to be helping, and yet not
> doing anything.
> Jack
>


> > Morgan LaMoore wrote:
> >> Jack Murray <[email protected]> wrote:
> >>
> >>>As you know from all the things you HAVE DONE, the key is in the
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Jack Murray <[email protected]> wrote:
> > of course lee provides lots of good advice and valuable insights,
> > everyone knows that. But the subject is an open source controller design,
> > and on that subject, the advice is less than useful, its is in fact
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

well Jack, I don't think Lee HAS to do it just because he answers 
questions but I agree he could give it a shot. especially to the extent 
that he already has. but remembering from previous questions maybe what 
has kept him from designing own is that it was some time ago and wasn't 
based on a microcontroller which would simplify a lot.

even if he doesn't his comments have been quite helpful to me at least 
even though he has held some things back, somewhat understandably but 
also somewhat needlessly, namely what he has learned from the zilla. 
that's an old wound, maybe we don't need to go there 
too me it's a bit silly and hypocritical that people open their 
controller to satisfy own curiosity but wont share it with others. be 
that as it may, it looks like we are arriving at a design without that 
particular knowledge.

btw, Lee I noticed your? design of the petrosonic controller uses only 
246A worth of fets and accomplish a rating of 150A. that's a 61% 
utility. what happened to 'they don't parallel well, are greatlty 
overrated and you must derate a factor 2 or more' ? : )

Dan





> Jack Murray wrote:
> 
> >of course lee provides lots of good advice and valuable insights,
> >everyone knows that. But the subject is an open source controller design,
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Dan Frederiksen <[email protected]> wrote:
> > ...
> > even if he doesn't his comments have been quite helpful to me at least
> > even though he has held some things back, somewhat understandably but
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

>> I looked at all the pictures at <http://www.sunrise-ev.com/pics>



> [email protected] wrote:
> > Ouch. Those pics have datestamps from 7 years ago.
> 
> Which shows that we don't know how to set the clock in the camera.
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Dan Frederiksen wrote:
> > btw, Lee I noticed your? design of the petrosonic controller uses only
> > 246A worth of fets and accomplish a rating of 150A. that's a 61%
> > utility. what happened to 'they don't parallel well, are greatlty
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Yeah Lee, why are you wasting time on your day job? You don't really need
> to pay the rent or put food on the table. Fasting is good for the sole.
>
> Quit your day job and spend all of your time developing controllers for
> cheep ass freeloaders. Oh, and finish up the Sunrise.
>
> I'm sure you can last two months or so before you starve and they kick you
> out of your house. Plenty of time to do all this free work for others and
> save them a bundle of money, and that is what is really important.
>
> So stop wasting your time trying to give them usefull advice.
>
> No seriously, stop wasting your time, and the list bandwidth, on these
> cretins.
>

Controllers, controllers, controllers. Every EV has one, everyone wants
one, but only two current EV Discussion List members (that I know of) have
successfully designed, manufactured and marketed a controller through
their own company:

http://www.cafeelectric.com/ and

http://russcoev.com/drivesystem.html

Controller design is no easy task. I recently needed a controller that
would not only motor Orange Juicer II, but provide field excitation for
regenerative braking. So, I built my own controller. Took two months of
work in between charger production. Cost me $11,600 for my time---for a
$2000 controller. But it performs well and meets my needs.

Designing the electronics for a controller is difficult, but the
mechanical layout is 10 times more difficult. It may take three minutes
to drill and tap a 10-32 through hole in 3/8 aluminum, but deciding where
to drill the hole may take half an hour. Such is development.

As promised, I have a picture of the inside of the controller on the
Russco website:

http://www.russcoev.com/oj_motor_controller.html

Russ Kaufmann

RUSSCO Engineering

http://www.russcoev.com

The Other PFC Charger With Built In GFCI





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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

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