# Re: [EVDL] Improving a DC motor



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Improving a DC motor*

> All sorts of things can be done if one is willing to pay the price. Question
> is, how much demand is there for a $5,000 or $10,000 motor? The 
> squirrel cage
> induction motor design being used in almost all AC drives is a good
> compromise. Not as efficient as a BLDC but capable of very wide speed ranges
> at modest cost. The ultimate motor may be a liquid cooled, hydrogen
> pressurized induction motor.

A WarP13 runs $4900 (http://www.evsource.com/tls_warp13.php):

Technical Information:

* Maximum operating voltage 170V, recommended voltage 150-160V
* HP = 43.7 @ 72 volts DC (452.9 amps)
* 135 Ft. pounds torque @ 72 volts DC (452.9 amps)
* Weight, approx. 300+ pounds
* 5500 RPM
* Exceeds class "H" insulation standard for temperatures
* Large style brushes, factory preset at over 90% contact
* Drive and tail shafts keyed - pilot bearing hole with 5/16 - 18 
mounting hole
* Double ended shaft - Turbo 400 spline

I'll bet if you could beat those specs, you could ask a few $K more. 
The Zilla fit to maximize the WarP13 costs >$5K - how much for a 
controller for yours?


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Improving a DC motor*



> Neon John wrote:
> 
> > Any time you're looking for losses, look for heat. You won't find any to
> > amount to anything in a ball bearing in good repair. Some minor benefit might
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Improving a DC motor*

30 Seconds ??
That doesn't sound right.
Check for excessive "no load" current.
Tom Meyers

)SNIP(
> My Siemens 1LH5118 motor has a splined hole instead of a stick out
> shaft. This hole gets quite warm inside after about 30 seconds at 5500
> rpm no load. 


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Improving a DC motor*



> [email protected] wrote:
> 
> >> All sorts of things can be done if one is willing to pay the price. Question
> >> is, how much demand is there for a $5,000 or $10,000 motor? The
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Improving a DC motor*

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Improving a DC motor*

>> A WarP13 runs $4900...



> Neon John wrote:
> > I saw your post this morning so I called down to the motor shop and
> > asked my friend, the owner, what a traction motor with those kinds of
> > specs should cost. He said that off the top of his head, it would
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Improving a DC motor*



> "Zeke Yewdall" <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> >I looked up the price (MSRP) for a industrial DC 13" GE SepEx motor like
> >mine, and it was around $6,000 new. Eeek. Plus... GE probably won't sell
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Improving a DC motor*

It's been a few months since I last spun up the motor and my testing
battery isn't assembled right now. It did take longer than 30 seconds
for the heat to travel to the shaft, but only about 30 seconds of motor
running to put the energy into the assembly. This is a water cooled
motor, but I don't have any water in it yet.

I'm going to be in a position to test it again in a week or two, so I'll
take more precise measurements.



> EVstuff wrote:
> > 30 Seconds ??
> > That doesn't sound right.
> > Check for excessive "no load" current.
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Improving a DC motor*



> Neon John wrote:
> >
> >>Is it possible to improve a DC motor further with weight reductions
> >>of certain components, changing proportions or quality of materials?
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Improving a DC motor*

Fran how is it possible to get a sepex DC to run at say 96volts?
Is a sepex better than series DC?
Ive looked at the sepex available and are only low voltage implying
high torque for low speeds?
Wouldnt a big diameter short length Sepex motor be a torque monster?




> fsabolich wrote:
> >
> >
> > Neon John wrote:
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Improving a DC motor*

>Fran how is it possible to get a sepex DC to run at say 96volts?

Of course

>Is a sepex better than series DC?

Depends how you define better. For an EV, a little extra complexity gains
regenerative braking. If you have no reverse gear, it also makes it easy to
electrically reverse the motor. IMO, it is better for an EV.

>Ive looked at the sepex available and are only low voltage implying
>high torque for low speeds?

An amp-turn is an amp-turn. In theory it doesn't matter if you run high
voltage and low current or low voltage and high current. Power = Volts *
Amps. The motor's rated voltage doesn't imply anything about RPM or torque.

For a specific vehicle, you may not be able to find a suitable sepex motor
in the marketplace. However, that does not mean that anything prevents such
a sepex motor from being made. My point was that if you are going to
improve a DC motor for EV use, the first thing to do is lose the series
field (provided that it is a series field motor).

In theory you can take a series field motor and rewind the field. Now you
have a sepex motor.

>Wouldnt a big diameter short length Sepex motor be a torque monster?

Big diameter and short length generally means higher torque and lower RPM;
it makes no difference if it is sepex, series field, or permanent magnet.

Fran

-- 
View this message in context: http://www.nabble.com/Improving-a-DC-motor-tp18500358p18583120.html
Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at Nabble.com.


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Improving a DC motor*

Thank you Fran, In that case can you guide me to the 96volt Sepex DC of
around 9inches?
or will it have to be a custom job?
Im aiming for direct drive 70mph max speed and pulling 1600lbs with some
small hills.
regards, d.




> fsabolich wrote:
> >
> >>Fran how is it possible to get a sepex DC to run at say 96volts?
> >
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Improving a DC motor*



> AMPrentice wrote:
> >
> > Thank you Fran, In that case can you guide me to the 96volt Sepex DC of
> > around 9inches?
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Improving a DC motor*

Thats what I thought but just had to check.
Any idea where or who sells the Kostov motors
there seems to be no english sites selling these babies.
regards, d.




> fsabolich wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Improving a DC motor*

On Tue, 22 Jul 2008 02:13:54 -0700 (PDT), AMPrentice <[email protected]> wrote:

>
>Thank you Fran, In that case can you guide me to the 96volt Sepex DC of
>around 9inches?
>or will it have to be a custom job?
>Im aiming for direct drive 70mph max speed and pulling 1600lbs with some
>small hills.

As with most things, the first question is, how much money do you want to
spend? If the answer is "a lot" then look in GE's catalog.

If you're like me, a cheapskate, then it'll be a "custom" or used. The
"custom" process is simple:

1. Find the series motor that you like.
2. Pick out the SEPEX controller that you plan to use. Determine what its
field excitation is. It's isn't necessarily the same as the battery or even
armature voltage.
3. Take your motor and the field spec to a motor shop and ask to have a shunt
field wound for that field voltage. It's a trivial job.

If you feel comfortable disassembling your motor, take only the field shoes
and existing field coils to the shop. That'll save you the labor of tearing
down and reassembling the motor.

You'll need to be capable of drilling a couple of est 1/2" holes in the frame
and mounting the two new terminal posts that you'll also buy from the motor
shop. And you'll need to be capable of silver soldering the leads.

John

--
John De Armond
See my website for my current email address
http://www.neon-john.com
http://www.johndearmond.com <-- best little blog on the net!
Tellico Plains, Occupied TN
If stupidity hurt then there'd be Aspirin in the salt shakers.


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Improving a DC motor*

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bG1hbi9saXN0aW5mby9ldgoK


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Improving a DC motor*

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dGluZm8vZXYKCg==


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Improving a DC motor*

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aW5mby9ldgoK


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Improving a DC motor*



> AMPrentice wrote:
> > Wouldn't a 13inch or 14inch diameter short length DC motor shunt or
> > sepex be better instead of a long 9 inch for torque, cooling and
> > drive-ability in direct setups or in general for RWD?
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Improving a DC motor*

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Improving a DC motor*



> AMPrentice wrote:
> > Lee, I love driveability and it would be interesting to know if SepEx
> > is more efficient in power usage over series
> 
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Improving a DC motor*

>>The sepex motor and controller goes in the direction of making the motor 
more complicated and expensive to get greater controllability and better 
regen. Independent control of armature and field can improve efficiency 
a little, and it's no problem getting full torque at any RPM.>>

Would this expense be both in the motor and controller or just controller?
Would this expense be more than running an AC motor?

> and also whether say a large diameter motor direct driven at 3 to 1
> is more efficient and durable than a small diameter high revver at 6
> to 1?

>>It would work, though there aren't many motors built like that. The 
tendency is to build lighter, smaller-diameter, higher-revving motors 
instead. If you need a gear reduction anyway, 6:1 is no harder than 3:1.
What if the same amount of copper was used?
eg. wider/narrower vs smaller/longer with the same amount of copper on both.
I just wonder whether if torque is what best a DC setup produces at low rpm
then this could be complimented and made more durable with lower revs.

-----
Except from himself and other fellow men, 
Man is the least endangered of all species. - Me
-- 
View this message in context: http://www.nabble.com/Improving-a-DC-motor-tp18500358p18673467.html
Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

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----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Improving a DC motor*

>> The sepex motor and controller goes in the direction of making the
>> motor more complicated and expensive to get greater controllability
>> and better regen.



> AMPrentice wrote:
> > Would this expense be both in the motor and controller or just controller?
> 
> A sepex motor controller is a little more complicated and expensive,
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Improving a DC motor*



> Lee Hart wrote:
> 
> >> Would this expense be more than running an AC motor?
> >
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Improving a DC motor*

>> AC motor controller... 6 big semiconductors, complex control logic.
>> series motor controller... 2 big semiconductors, simple control logic.
>> sepex motor controller... 2 big and 4 smaller semiconductors, control
>>	logic somewhere between the two.



> Metric Mind wrote:
> > However, AC inverters cost thousands more... [they are] not as common,
> > fewer are made... and most of the cost is software development.
> > Also part of it supply-demand...
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Improving a DC motor*

Lee, judging by the square dimensions you suggest If I could get it
built, is it possible to aim for a custom cut down 13 by 13 inch motor 
and rewound into sepex for 80 volts using a Curtis 1244 sepex controller 
or 96volts using an ELEKTROSISTEM Phoenix T81?
http://www.elektrosistem.com/e/p2.htm http://www.elektrosistem.com/e/p2.htm 
This is instead of using a warp 9 in series at 96volts.





> Lee Hart wrote:
> >
> >>> The sepex motor and controller goes in the direction of making the
> >>> motor more complicated and expensive to get greater controllability
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Improving a DC motor*



> AMPrentice wrote:
> > Lee, judging by the square dimensions you suggest: If I could get it
> > built, is it possible to aim for a custom cut down 13 by 13 inch motor
> > and rewound into sepex for 80 volts using a Curtis 1244 sepex controller
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Improving a DC motor*

Thank you Lee! I will aim for a large diamter short length Sepex motor
hopefully based from a second hand or shaft damaged 13inch motor.
Now who to approach to design it for me 
Im getting prices and specs on the italian controller by Electrosistem
as it looks simpler than the Zappi but will check that as well.
I wonder why italians are the first to design the high voltage sepex units
and also LPG injection systems, it seems they are very much into
efficiency when it comes to motors of all kinds.




> Lee Hart wrote:
> >
> > AMPrentice wrote:
> >> Lee, judging by the square dimensions you suggest: If I could get it
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Improving a DC motor*



> > AMPrentice wrote:
> >> Lee, judging by the square dimensions you suggest: If I could get it
> >> built, is it possible to aim for a custom cut down 13 by 13 inch motor
> 
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Improving a DC motor*

Peter, my mistake I mean including the commutator excluding the shaft.
More like a pancake style design. Improving torque and using lower rpms.




> Peter VanDerWal wrote:
> >
> >> AMPrentice wrote:
> >>> Lee, judging by the square dimensions you suggest: If I could get it
> ...


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