# 1994 Ford Escort Hatchback



## mattW (Sep 14, 2007)

So your looking at 144V by 260Ah system? That's about 37kWh (your usable capacity would be more like 20kWh because of the large currents which EVs draw) which would give an impressive range. The only problem would be weight and volume. Those batteries weigh 33kg (72lbs) each for a total pack weight of 792kg (1742lbs). That kind of weight might be possible on a pick-up conversion (maybe) but I don't think you chassis could take it. Do you know the weight and GVWR of the escort?


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## headrush (Jan 20, 2008)

According to the specs I have found it is 2302lb (1046.36Kgs) or 2339lb (1063.18kgs) for the 2 door LX for curb weight. If I am correct it is the LX. As for GVWR I am sure the 1742lbs is way beyond what it can carry. I figure about 500lb (228kgs) to 600lb (273kgs) are going to be taken out of it.

Now where to you get the specs for these batteries. Every where I look I can find, maybe, the weight of the batteries, but not the size.


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## headrush (Jan 20, 2008)

I have called 4 Ford Dealerships, and hunted through the internet. I can not find the Gross Vehicle Weight Rating (GVWR) anywhere. I have no idea what its max weight is. but I seriously doubt it can handle another 1000lb in weight and still drive down the road, not unless I do some serious revamping of the suspension.


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## mattW (Sep 14, 2007)

The dimensions listed here are 264W x 181L x 295H in mm. Our wiki lists the specs of quite a few cars though not yours. The GVWR of similar sized vehicles to yours will give you a starting point. Remember it is not just the suspension but also the chassis that will be strained. Suspension upgrades can only go so far.


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## Greenflight (Sep 13, 2007)

Well, you can mod the heck out of the suspension, and probably end up with a 3500 lb Escort.  You'd have to be careful where you put the batteries because, as Matt said, these little cars have little frames (bodies, frames, whatever). It would probably work fine if you did it right, and you'd be looking at an awesome range with that setup. 

You could run a lower voltage system, maybe 96v. You'd lose a lot of acceleration, but the weight would be easier to deal with. Or you could run a slightly higher voltage system, say 156, and use 12v batteries. Since most 12v batteries aren't as high quality as 6v, you'd probably have a reduced battery life, and you'd lose some range, but you'd drop some weight and gain some acceleration. This is what I'm doing with my Tercel.


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## headrush (Jan 20, 2008)

After looking around I might drop the voltage, ass acceleration is not a big issue. Though I really am beginning to like the idea of going with a 6v battery system instead of a 12v battery system. 

The system I quotes was based on the calculations at one of the pages given in the wiki, and just maxing out the mileage calculations. Now comes the time to measure, and calculate a real world figure. I used a 1997 Ford Escort LX and just maxed it out. I really do not believe I will be able to afford a Zila 1k controller nor am I going to be able to afford $200 - $400 a battery on my first vehicle. 

I do love my wife and family and I do want to be married when this is over. 

Though the NAPA owner here in town does owe me a few favors... hmmm...


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## headrush (Jan 20, 2008)

OK doing more reading and shop comparison;

It seems the Zila 1k retails for about $1975.00 and weighs 23# (10.45 Kg) the Curtis 1231C-8601 retails at $1950 and weighs 12# (5.45 Kg). Yet the Zila has a ton more features, including hookup to the current idiot lights on the dash, a converter for the built in tach, the computer interface, and many others.

The question is, why wouldn't you spend the extra $25 and get the Zila 1K? Other wise stated as, what is the difference in the controllers?


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## xrotaryguy (Jul 26, 2007)

Because you _can't_ get the Zilla controller. Last I heard, there is a waiting list for that controller. The Curtis controller does not have that problem. Someone please correct me if I am wrong.

BTW, what part of AZ are you in? I'm in Tempe.


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## elevatorguy (Jul 26, 2007)

headrush said:


> I have called 4 Ford Dealerships, and hunted through the internet. I can not find the Gross Vehicle Weight Rating (GVWR) anywhere. I have no idea what its max weight is. but I seriously doubt it can handle another 1000lb in weight and still drive down the road, not unless I do some serious revamping of the suspension.


You may try looking inside the driver door jamb for a sticker, many cars have GVWR and seperated by front and rear. worth a try
Jerry


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## mcrickman (Sep 10, 2007)

I just got a Zilla 1k it took about 8 weeks to come in. You don't need the controler to get started converting. I also have gone with the warp 9
motor. I'm still painting my Opel GT though its almost warm enough to finish painting, mid March should be warm enough. I plan on selecting batteries last though because I want to get some really nice ones .

Charlie


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## headrush (Jan 20, 2008)

Well after looking at it all, I think I am definitely going for a Zila controller. Just too many features not to, and if I am going to spend that much cash I think I can afford $25. Waiting 8 weeks is no big deal since I will be working on this is going to be a weekend job done between my other "honey do" jobs.

As for where I live in Arizona, it is as far north as you can get without being in Utah. A little town call Page, population 6000, and 150 mile away from the next town in Arizona... Flagstaff.

I will look tonight for the GVWR in the door cause nothing online (that I can find) nor in any of the 3 manuals that I have can I find the GVWR. Maybe I should email Car Talk and ask them.


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## headrush (Jan 20, 2008)

Sometime you just have to get the wife involved. Thanks to my wife and her sleuth like talent I now have the some figures. She read them as follows:

GAWR front = 1865lb 845kilo
GAWR rear = 1664lb 754k

I am supposing that is weight that can be added tot he car as it is. So if I remove 500 or 600 I would then have that 500 to 600 lbs plus a max the additional GAWR


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## mattW (Sep 14, 2007)

hmmm no I'm pretty sure thats the total weight including the car and extras (hence gross). You have to subtract the weight of the car from those numbers to get how much batteries you can hold.


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## headrush (Jan 20, 2008)

Well bummer. With just quick figures that means the car is about 2300lb (1045.45Kg) right now with a gross max of 3529lbs (1604.09kg) giving me a MAX of 1229lbs (558.64kg). This not including passenger and cargo weight.

So does this sound about right;

Removal of about 500lbs (227.27kg)
Cargo and passenger of about 400lbs (181.82kg) (Don't forget, wife, kids, groceries or what ever and my big behind)
Addition of motor and associated parts (not including batteries) of about 300 lbs (136.36 kg)
Leaving me a MAX of about 1029lbs (467.73kg) for batteries.

Wow, that is a lot of weight. So now it is trying to figure out which batteries I can afford and I can afford the weight and size (I will be doing the measurements of the cargo areas over the next few days.)

Though it sounds like 6v batteries are the way to go for range, if I can make them fit.


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## mattW (Sep 14, 2007)

Yeah parents + kids + cargo + 24 batteries = challenge but i'm sure you can work out a creative solution. You have the area under the bonnet(hood) - the smaller motor and controller etc, the fuel tank area and you might have to sacrifice some boot space... you may have to go shopping and drive the kids round on different days =P


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## xrotaryguy (Jul 26, 2007)

I was set on using an Escort wagon for my conversion for a while. I actually put together a spread sheet too. Here is the spread sheet. I'm sure that your conversion will be different from what I was planning (no two diy conversions are the same right) , but you may find this to be of interest.

http://www.box.net/shared/static/e7fa7iv4ws.xls


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## xrotaryguy (Jul 26, 2007)

mcrickman said:


> I just got a Zilla 1k it took about 8 weeks to come in. You don't need the controler to get started converting. I also have gone with the warp 9
> motor. I'm still painting my Opel GT though its almost warm enough to finish painting, mid March should be warm enough. I plan on selecting batteries last though because I want to get some really nice ones .
> 
> Charlie


Ok, so the wait is not that long. That is good news. Someone on a local forum was telling me that they had a long waiting list. Perhaps the production lag has been resolved... or perhaps there never was one. Thanks for the correction.


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## headrush (Jan 20, 2008)

So we have narrowed the field so far. 

A Zila 1k Controller
Warp 9 Motor

Batteries we are still looking into.

What about battery chargers? I would like to make it so I can drive up to a standard 110v US plug and plug in. Would it be better to use a 30 or 50 amp RV hook up? What are the differences between the types of chargers? 

BTW that spreadsheet is great. I am making so mods to it for my usage, but it is set up pretty darn good.


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## headrush (Jan 20, 2008)

mattW said:


> Yeah parents + kids + cargo + 24 batteries = challenge but i'm sure you can work out a creative solution. You have the area under the bonnet(hood) - the smaller motor and controller etc, the fuel tank area and you might have to sacrifice some boot space... you may have to go shopping and drive the kids round on different days =P


I was looking at it this morning and the back hatch looks like a good place, and yes there will be more under the hood. I might even get crazy and see about mounting some were the gas tank use to be. 

This car will probably become a company vehicle. If it works nice and the wife likes it, she might 'let' me do a minivan next. Then I can convert my work van and then a RV and a boat and and... hehe


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## headrush (Jan 20, 2008)

As to the charger issue. Gav on KiwiEv admits that his 3 amp chargers do not work as well as he would like.

What size would you say is a good size. I can get 6am chargers easily enough. Should they be higher? 

What about ripping the guts out of these charger and mount them in a box so they don't take up so much space?


I suppose you would want auto sensing charges that will cut off once the battery is fully charged. Would you need to keep the gauges on them?


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## mattW (Sep 14, 2007)

It would depend on the size of your battery and the amount of discharge that you were doing. If you had 100Ah batteries down to 80% then I assume it would take about 8 hours at 10A... I'm not sure what the charging current limits are but divide your pack amp hours (at say 80%) by the time you want to charge in, i'd say at least 6 hours, and that's your amps. It might take slightly longer (~10%) due to the inefficiency of the battery, or it might take slightly shorter due to the higher voltage for charging (i'm not sure) but that should work as a rough guide. Hopefully someone who actually has an EV can chime in =). All I know is you need to get a pack's worth of energy (kWh) in there which is Voltage x Current x time ( x efficiency).

You want to look for 3 stage chargers (or more) to maintain your battery life. As for the sensors, all you need is a single plug that gathers together all the necessary wires to one place (eg. Gav's set-up).


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## headrush (Jan 20, 2008)

Okay, so we have the theory, but now we need the practical. Lets say I am using 100Ah batteries.

What make or type of charge would you suggest? Is there one manufacture that stands above the others, or is the good chargers just out of our reach? What type of chargers did the EV1 and RAV4EV use?

What about something like the Battery Charger Zivan NG3 12V-312VDC?


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## Greenflight (Sep 13, 2007)

Most chargers that are in the price range of most individual conversions are just basic two-stage chargers with a constant current and a constant voltage stage. They may have different bells and whistles, but in terms of what's actually going into the batteries, there isn't that much difference.

The K & W BC-20 is an ok charger... It doesn't have a computer interface and it can't do your laundry, but it'll charge your batteries. I'm using one in my truck. It can charge up to 114V packs, or up to 144 with a boost transformer. 

The chargers that I have for my Tercel are 6A 12v individual chargers. They have a 6A stage and a trickle (constant voltage) stage. I got them off of ebay for 18 bucks each. They're internally isolated so there won't be any problems running them in series. Unfortunately I don't think they're on ebay any more, but any charger that advertises two stages should do basically the same thing.


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## xrotaryguy (Jul 26, 2007)

Wait, we can place multiple small chargers in series?... Really? Like this right?


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## xrotaryguy (Jul 26, 2007)

Jaqie said:


> While you CAN do that, doing so would completely null all advantages to running multiple small ones over a single large one, namely it would have the exact same problems a single large charger would have (overcharge some batts while others are undercharged) and even with some chargers the logic may become confused and not work properly.


That's what I was thinking. I don't know why I would want to use this type of setup, I was just surprised that it was possible. Are there any advantages to charging in this way?


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## headrush (Jan 20, 2008)

Sorry if I miss spoke myself. When I said we had the theory, I mean the paper part of it. Yes I know it has been proven, but like I said what manufacturer do you suggest? 

The 2 configurations I am looking at are 12 12v 110Ah batteries or 20 6v 110ah batteries.

After reading Gavin's post about the charges he is using, it sounds like the money he saved, really wasn't a savings. Because he is not getting a full charge over night.

I want to be able to charge over night, and having a quick charge (I know it won't charge to 100%) would be nice. 

I am thinking the multiple smaller charges would be better in the long run, cheaper, and allow for opportunistic charging (Like going to visit Grandma with the kids and plugging in).

But just like I can give you all the stats in the world about tires for my motor cycle, I can also tell you which tires live up to those stats, which tires I like the feeling and handling of, which tires are worth the price and which are tires you are paying for the brand name on them. 

This goes back to the parts I am putting into this car. I can read the stats and figure what looks good on paper, but something that looks like it is the best may not perform that way in real life.

Therefore that brings me to the questions of the chargers. Which ones do the people like because of use and how they function in the real world.


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## Greenflight (Sep 13, 2007)

Jaqie said:


> While this is true for cheap chargers, and lead-acid chargers, when you get into nickel cadmium, lithium, et cetra you *NEED* a more intelligent charger or you *WILL* ruin the batteries.


Almost all two stage chargers (even "smart" ones) are just basic CCCV chargers. They may have slightly different settings for current and voltage, but they still have the same basic cycles. There isn't much you can do with a CC charge cycle, and as for CV cycles, they provide the "intelligent" current tapering that manufacturers brag about automatically.

The "intelligence" part of it is the point where the charger switches from CC to CV. In general, CV is the top 80% of the charge. The batteries aren't going to care if it's 76% or 84%. Most "dumb" two stage chargers are almost as smart as true "smart chargers."


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## headrush (Jan 20, 2008)

So no information on what manufactures of charges that anyone likes, or has used in the past?

How about the difference between the Warp 9 and the Impulse 9 or the  Advanced DC FB1-4001?


Or the difference between the  Curtis 1231C and the Zila 1k or 2k controllers?


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## Greenflight (Sep 13, 2007)

Well, IMO, a K & W BC-20 would do the job. Or, for probably less money, you could go with a number of "smart" 12v chargers.

I don't know much about them, but the PFC line of chargers (PFC-20, PFC-30) seems to be pretty nice.

To the best of my knowledge, the Zilla is a really nice controller. It has options such as current and voltage limiting, RPM limiting, and tons of others that the Curtis doesn't have.


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## headrush (Jan 20, 2008)

Thank you. I am pretty convinced on the Zilla 1k. 


The Warp 9 just seems to be the way to go, though I wonder if I would get enough power and range out of a 8" motor. Naw the price difference isn't enough and it looks like the Warp 9 is less than $100 difference than the  Advanced DC FB1-4001a, but the power and advancement is much better.

As for batteries and such. I am talking to a company I get all my UPS batteries from. I am actually talking to them and they aren't laughing.  In fact they are looking at the batteries, sizes, cabling and the chargers. Because they are based in Phoenix I might be able to save a bit on shipping. Right now I am looking at these batteries or these batteries and this charger for my needs.

The batteries have "female" connectors but they say they can change that if needed. I told them I want the best connector that can handle high loaded over and extended period of time. I am told their "engineers" are working on it. They haven't lead me wrong yet.

The charger, being a "4 stage" charger at 2, 10, and 55 amps is more amps than I think I could use, though I have asked them if they can adjust it to no more than 40amps (Would that be a good charging rate for a battery, or would that be way too high?) My idea with it is to have the individual chargers for each battery. There cost isn't so great that it makes it impossible. I am figuring on taking them out of their spiffy blue case, and mounting the hardware in a more convenient configuration for the car.

Though these guys may come through for me and do all the hard work for me. You just never know until you ask.


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## mattW (Sep 14, 2007)

the 55A was just for jump starting a car (~30 secs max) not for charging but otherwise it looks like a good charger. 10A isn't too bad and you batteries Ah isn't huge so it should take to long...


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## headrush (Jan 20, 2008)

Like I said I am working with the company and seeing if maybe we can work a system out. Might be something to help future EVers with the battery, charging, and wiring. 

I understand the 55amp charge is used in a ICE vehicle to do a jump start. What I am trying to find out is if they can make the same type of charger but lets say at 20amp or 30amps instead of the 55 amps.


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## xrotaryguy (Jul 26, 2007)

Great link on the local battery supplier. I will certainly consider them when I get closer to building my car. I like how they list ah ratings for different rates of discharge.











What I don't like is the price. $200+ holy crap!


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## headrush (Jan 20, 2008)

True but those are AGM batteries, not flooded. I haven't had much luck with the 110ah or 135ah in Lead/Acid Flooded batteries.

My thinking is that AGM would be safer in a hatch back environment. Besides I am not finding flooded lead/acid batteries in the same amp/hr range for much less. I am finding things like USB185 between $250 and $290


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## xrotaryguy (Jul 26, 2007)

I know they're AGMs. I have been looking at AGMs too, but the ones that I've been looking at, UPGs are less expensive. I see now that the UPGs also have a significantly lower ah rating. The UPGs are lighter too though, so I'm not sure which would be the better deal. If I can't find batteries similar to these UPGs locally, then the yours might be a better deal headrush.


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## headrush (Jan 20, 2008)

Now I get the idea of *Peukert's Capacity *and the idea of the shrinking battery effect. But I am still not sure how to figure it out. Evconvert has a nice page on batteries, but I can not figure out the formula. Smart Gauge has some interesting products and they explain the idea and their formula and they even supply a spreadsheet to figure it out, but I can not get the numbers to match. 

Also if you look on Grubers website, they have the same batteries you were looking at and for less, and you can even save money on shipping if they will let you pick it up at the warehouse. Might be worth it to you if you use the money you would have on shipping to get a better battery.

Wonder why it seems to be so hard to get pricing on Lead/Acid flooded batteries.


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## headrush (Jan 20, 2008)

Has anyone ever used LoveJoy for the coupling between the motor and the transmission?


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## 3dplane (Feb 27, 2008)

Dr Larry Tillman did in his car.(love joy)He has a very inspiring and unique approach in his setup.(walmart batts.and individual chargers,axe7245, 7.5HPd&d motor etc)Sorry no links,but if you have not seen his conversion yet its worth a search.


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## headrush (Jan 20, 2008)

Yeah I looked at his site, which led me to the Love joy couplers. I was just wondering if anyone has used them in the past. They look like they would make mating the electric motor to the transmission a heck of a lot easier. Especially if you ever want to swap a motor or trans mission out in the future. I was just wondering if anyone has played around with them or had any thoughts.

Now he seems to think 96V is just fine. I was planning on 144v or 192v system. What would the advantage be on a smaller system, other than the obvious weight reduction, cost reduction, and the number of chargers?

According to the evconvert calculator I have been messing around with the more volts I can get into the system the more distance and speed I can get out of it.


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## headrush (Jan 20, 2008)

Well that puts a kink in my step. Just reading over the Zilla 1k manual and found out I need to water cool the sucker.



> The controller is set up for water cooling. It can be run with air cooling in lightweight multiple ratio (shifting) vehicles
> when dry cooling air can be assured. It is better to have water cooling if possible. Water cooling keeps the controller
> cooler during use and that will help promote long-term reliability.


Well heck. And it doesn't seem the Curtis is rated above 120v. I was hoping to run this puppy at 144v or 192v.


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## xrotaryguy (Jul 26, 2007)

So water cool it. All you need is a small universal electric fluid pump and a universal transmission oil cooler. This isn't a game stopper. Heck, if you can afford a Zilla, the cooling components will be a drop in the bucket.


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## 3dplane (Feb 27, 2008)

Or just a heater core (used as a radiator) positioned above the controller and let convection do the pump's job?


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## BenNelson (Jul 27, 2007)

headrush said:


> Has anyone ever used LoveJoy for the coupling between the motor and the transmission?


Yeah, the Forkenswift guys used a LoveJoy coupler in their project too.


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## headrush (Jan 20, 2008)

xrotaryguy said:


> So water cool it. All you need is a small universal electric fluid pump and a universal transmission oil cooler. This isn't a game stopper. Heck, if you can afford a Zilla, the cooling components will be a drop in the bucket.


Evparts is showing the Controllera:
Curtis #1231C-8601, 96-144 VDC, 500 amp for *$1950.00
*Controller, Zilla Z1K-LV, 72 to 156 VDC, 1000 amp for *$1975.00*

That is only a $25 difference. Or am I missing something? 

Being from the computer field the idea of liquid cooling a chip make me chuckle. I built a computer for a customer and it has an external coolant system, that pump a coolant oil through it to drop the temp of his hugely over clocked processor. I suppose I could do something like that and even cool the sucker better than using water and it might be less energy than a standard pump. I will have to look into that one.



3dplane said:


> Or just a heater core (used as a radiator) positioned above the controller and let convection do the pump's job?


Will that give it enough psi/flow through actual use. I like the idea because it does not require additional power, but is it practical and will it work through all driving conditions. I would love to hear from people who have used the Zilla and have it running in a normal car. Most of what I see on the web is the high performance stuff.


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## headrush (Jan 20, 2008)

BenNelson said:


> Yeah, the Forkenswift guys used a LoveJoy coupler in their project too.


I was looking at Electric Automotive because I found they have the adapter plate and coupling already made up for my Ford Escort 1.9L. There kit looks good, and I can upgrade the Impulse 9 to a Warp 9 for $50, but they use the Curtis Controller.

I think the question of the coupler is answered, but I still think the Lovejoy is a great answer if you are going to be swapping part out and experimenting. I looks like a really good answer so you don't have to re machine the coupler every time.


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## headrush (Jan 20, 2008)

elevatorguy said:


> headrush,
> you might find something in this article that could help..
> 
> http://www.vonwentzel.net/Battery/00...ary/index.html
> ...


Thanks, that goes a long way to figuring out which batteries to go for. Sounds like AGM or Lead Gell are the current favorites. Though when I talk to the manufactures, they don't seem to know what I am asking for.


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## dtbaker (Jan 5, 2008)

headrush said:


> ... but they use the Curtis Controller.


nothing wrong with Curtis; they are dependable! They are not 'adjustable' like some of the others.... but don't seem to have the problems either. If you pick a specific voltage, and stick to it, you can match your controller, charger, contactor, etc to all be the 'right' size.

on batteries.... The AGMs are 'stiffer' with lower Peukerts usually; which means higher discharge for longer without voltage sag. They also do not require watering and can be tipped around. BUT the total energy you'll get out is lower than wet cell 'floodies', and they are usually more expensive.

so, although I am no expert.... for lower range higher speed performance consider AGM, for best economy and longest range go FLA. (unless you go Li of course).


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## dtbaker (Jan 5, 2008)

headrush said:


> Evparts is showing the Controllers:
> Or am I missing something?


Zillas are out of production still as far as I know... so GETTING one might be the hard part.


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## dtbaker (Jan 5, 2008)

looks more like 'batateam' copied and pasted results from a google search, and maybe copied more of the links for 'escort' than intended....


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## headrush (Jan 20, 2008)

dtbaker said:


> looks more like 'batateam' copied and pasted results from a google search, and maybe copied more of the links for 'escort' than intended....


I came back to my thread here to catch up. Though I would give this a go. Seems a new baby, a new house, and other things have been keeping me too busy to worry about the EV. Now I am back on the hunt.... though..... Ottowa seems to have some very nice escorts...could definately save a few dollars on gas if I..... <bad bad man don't think about it>


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