# Motorcycle conversion: Kawasaki Ninja ex500 using dual enertrac motors



## frodus (Apr 12, 2008)

How do you mean dual motor? Two motors in one hub on the rear wheel? or one motor on front, one on back? I'm not famiiliar, so forgive me.

I think Mark uses Kelly. I'd ask him what he recommends first.

What brand batteries? Just wondering, I sell batteries as well... GBS cells/bms/charger.


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## Bowser330 (Jun 15, 2008)

http://www.ev-propulsion.com/motorcycle-hub-motors.html

They sell a dual motor setup now for sport bikes....peaks at 60kw...










Off Topic:
It would be awesome to see a lightweight car like a miata with all the wheels driven by these motors. 8 motors, 10ke nom. & 30kw peak each = 240kw peak, 80kw nominal total, each motor supports 400 pounds, so 8 support 3200lbs, lightweight lithium pack would work.


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## frodus (Apr 12, 2008)

Yeah, I think they're put in parallel, I'd ask mark what he recommends.

What batteries are you using?


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## theFREElaker (Jan 17, 2012)

I emailed a few companies for quotes, but i think i am going to go with a 2nd generation GBS Lithium battery pack. I am looking at the 40AH 96 volt pack (https://www.electricautosports.com/node/451) and the 60AH 96 volt pack (https://www.electricautosports.com/node/445). Trying to figure out with pack i should get. The 60AH pack at $4000.00 is almost too much money for me... but from my calculations, to travel 40 miles at 70mph I need ~53AH 96 volt pack.


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## theFREElaker (Jan 17, 2012)

Honestly, I am primarily concerned about which battery pack i should get and how the dual ?parallel? motors will affect the bikes performance.


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## jeremyjs (Sep 22, 2010)

you'd be really pushing a 40 ah pack hard, well beyond it's specifications for peak power, with those motors and a controller to support it. Heck you'd even be pushing 60ah cells, not beyond their rating, but certainly enough to cut their lifespan a bit to lower than the advertised 2000 cycles.......


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## frodus (Apr 12, 2008)

I tend to agree. I'd shoot for 60Ah cells unless you decide to do a higher power cell, which would likely cost you more anyway.

PM'd you


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## theFREElaker (Jan 17, 2012)

Is anyone keen on how exactly these nub motors work? For the dual MHM602, is a 144volt pack ideal, so that each motor gets 72 volts? I am not entirely sure how this works. Does each motor getting 72 volts mean each pull half of the amperage provided by the controller at any given moment, and if so, does this increase overall power or overall efficiency?


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## frodus (Apr 12, 2008)

Doesn't work like that. These are brushless motors. They're essentially position matched and then fixed in place so that the coils are in series or parallel. The controller still gets 144V, but it depends on how Mark has them hooked up. I wouldn't wander far from what he's done.

I think most times I see dual brushless motors, they're put in parallel, so each motor would be getting a modulated 144V signal, each motor at half the amps.


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## theFREElaker (Jan 17, 2012)

So how does that affect the performance, the 144v signal with each motor recieving half the amps? Does it consume the same amount of power as one motor but more torque at lower revs?


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## frodus (Apr 12, 2008)

Pretty much, but it's 3 phase, so it's a little more complicated. 

but assume that the whole thing is really 1 motor, and there's just 2 sets of coils where there'd normally be 1. Each get half the power.


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## theFREElaker (Jan 17, 2012)

so what exactly are the advantages then?


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## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

Being a racecar car guy I would use 4 motors and pack it full of cells. 

In a Ninja? Yah, go for it.

Miz


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

theFREElaker said:


> so what exactly are the advantages then?


Assuming that they're in parallel, each motor would get the full voltage for maximum rpm; and assuming you have a controller that's rated for twice the peak and constant current of each motor, you would have twice the torque you would have with one motor.

That means you can move a heavier load easier, or you can accelerate a lighter load faster. An EX500 is a light bike, so you have to figure out whether the additional weight you're adding with another motor and more batteries is worth more than what you'd be losing over the single motor/smaller pack, lighter version.

That comes down to how you will be using the bike (city, highway, combined, etc), how much you weigh, and will you be carrying passengers or "cargo"... If you're in a lot of stop and go traffic, climbing hills, stoplight "racing" and/or tugging a lot of weight, the additional torque will help. If you're going putt-putt to work, with very light traffic, on flat roads, you may not use it enough to justify it. You have to figure out your needs. It's hard for us to provide much valuable input without data.


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## theFREElaker (Jan 17, 2012)

I have actually decided to go with a heavier bike, in the 750cc-1300cc range depending on what i can get. As far as what i am looking for in this bike (if this helps at all with giving me advise as to whether or not dual motors is better than one): 
1. a top speed of about 80mph
2. a range of 40 miles (I wont be driving this range everyday, but i need it to commute from my apartment to my work a couple of days a week)
3. I would like some sexy acceleration, say around 5-6 seconds 0-60 or maybe a little faster.
4. I weigh 160 pounds and should not be carrying any cargo, maybe a light backpack.

Right now i am keeping my eye on salvage auctions for a bigger sport bike but they keep moving out of my price range. Do you think that a 600cc bike would have enough room for either dual motors or an ac20 with the amount of batteries i need to go 40 miles at 70mph? Sorry about not having any official data, it is because i still dont have a bike and am not sure which one i am going with simply because the price and size are the biggest factors.
Also do you have a motor and control combo that would work well as a dual motor setup and is compatible with my expectations? Btw I am expecting my dry weight to be about 425-500 pounds


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## theFREElaker (Jan 17, 2012)

Also, I was told that in order to achieve those goals for my bike, I would need a bigger bike, do you guys think a 600cc bike is too small for what I am trying to do? To be honest, I dont care which brand/model bike I get, as long as it looks sexy and holds what i need to put in there.


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## frodus (Apr 12, 2008)

AC20 would work well. There's plenty of power (~45HP peak). I know quite a few that have used it. The performance of the AC20 will get you at least 80mph and the range you need should fit inside of a 600-800CC bike. I like the AC15 and AC20 systems because the motor is built well, and the controllers are pretty bulletproof. That's why I chose to start selling them (www.emf-power.com). I'm partial though, because I own one.

I can fit 5kwh in my VFR (V-four). Inline engines are a bit better because once removed, the frame is wider, which is great for batteries. My frame is thinner than most.

You'll likely have enough room 5-6kwh in there, an AC20 and a decent charger. 

Are you thinking crotch rocket? or more of a cruiser?


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## theFREElaker (Jan 17, 2012)

I'm thinking croch rocket: Honda cbr, Yamaha yzfr, Suzuki gsxr, Kawasaki Zx 10r. Bikes like these. What do you think about a Yamaha yzfr 6?


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## frodus (Apr 12, 2008)

What year?

Get new as you can. You'll spend less on immediate maintenance like head bearings, wheel bearings, brake lines, brake pads, rotors, tires (maybe), brake fluid, fork seals/fluid, etc.

The YZF-R6 looks like a nice bike. I almost bought one!


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## theFREElaker (Jan 17, 2012)

well the year is tentative. I am using autobidmaster which host auctions for salvaged vehicles. At this moment I have my eye on these bikes: 2008 KAWASAKI ZX1400C, 2009 KAWASAKI ZX1400C, 2007 SUZUKI GSX1300RZ, 2001 YAMAHA YZFR6/S. I was looking for a bigger bike, but they are a lot more expensive than the 600-750cc bikes on the auction. As for the years though, almost all the bikes are 2000 or newer and most are >2005.


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## frodus (Apr 12, 2008)

make sure you can insure a salvaged motorcycle converted to electric. Some insurance companies might not want the risk for comprehensive.... or charge you a lot for liability.


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## theFREElaker (Jan 17, 2012)

Yea, I have been looking into that :/ it is a sticky situation, but i won't let that hold me back! *Besides i don't have the cash for a newer bike to convert that isn't salvaged*  I am just a broke college kid


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## frodus (Apr 12, 2008)

well, insurance will hold you back if you want it legal.

Also, consider that you can sell engine related parts on ebay for cash.... it'll lower the cost but take some time to do.


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## theFREElaker (Jan 17, 2012)

Yes, but the bikes I am looking at run around $4,000 and up, where as the same bike salvaged averages about $1,500-$2,500


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## theFREElaker (Jan 17, 2012)

Which bike do you think has more room? a 900cc v twin (http://www.totalmotorcycle.com/photos/2001models/2001models-Honda-RVT1000R-RC51.htm) or a 600cc inline 4 (http://www.bikez.com/motorcycles/yamaha_yzf-r6_2001.php) I found a Honda RVT1000R


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## frodus (Apr 12, 2008)

Salvage are just usually harder to insure. Just saying check into it BEFORE you buy. I'm talking from experience. My original frame didn't have a title, then I found out it was salvage. Ended up swapping frames.

I don't know which is best, measure it. I'd stick with a 600 if you only want like 50 miles. The 1000cc seems like a HUGE bike to me, and your acceleration will suffer. The 600CC is about 50lbs lighter.

Is this your first bike? If so, Stick with a smaller style of bike.


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## theFREElaker (Jan 17, 2012)

I really like teh yzfr and the cbr :/
I will give a few insurance agencies a call and see what they say. I did call USAA when i was thinking about a car conversion and they said they would charge me the usual rate but cover way less if it was wrecked


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## frodus (Apr 12, 2008)

Both are nice bikes. Looking back, I wish I'd have gotten a newer bike and spent money on something that needed less work, not that there was a ton, but it's a 25 year old bike.

Take time, get something in good shape if you can.


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## dladd (Jun 1, 2011)

my random .02

any inline 4 is going to give you some good space for battery cells. I owned a YZF600 (i think it was like a 95?) for some time, nice wide frame, but aluminum so a little trickier to modify if you need to. Light and handled well, of course.

I've also owned a bunch of EX500's, roadraced them for 5 years. They are pretty entry level stuff, crap suspension and flexi-flier frames. Skip them.

If I were looking for a sportbike to convert, i'd look at an old F2. There were bazillions of them made, steel frames so nice and easy to weld/modify if needed, and they can be found cheap. Hook up with your local road racing club and see who has what sitting in their garage. See if they have a website with a classifieds section. You can often get a good rolling chassis for little $$ if it's a few years old and 'outdated', often they are on non-ops, but for sure check the title status before buying anything. 

personally if I were converting a bike, I'd do a dualsport. It lessens the need for top performance (nothing would be worse than a super trick looking sportbike with middling electric performance), they generally have lowish weight yet high cargo capacities, lots of space to put parts, and look cool.  My daily rider (when I ever have time these days...) is a KLR650. I often think it would make a perfect local (50 mile range) EV bike.


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## frodus (Apr 12, 2008)

Look around to see what bikes have good aftermarket/replacement part support. 

Take a gander on evalbum.com too and see what others are doing.


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## theFREElaker (Jan 17, 2012)

Hey thanks for the headsup on the insurance issue. I have been calling around and it seems that I have to talk to an agency that specializes in custom/electric bikes. Which insurance agencies did you guys use? And does it cover the electrical components?
I'm looking around for a cbr f2, any other suggestions on sport bike models? I really like suzuki's style! Also, I'm not sure about a dual sport. My brother has a klr650 but I just don't like the look or riding position, I want something more aggressive


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## frodus (Apr 12, 2008)

Progressive, forget actual costs, but I just got mine done today.

<$130/yr or so for liability and uninsured motorist protection
<$350/yr or something for comprehensive with $7200 vehicle/custom equipment coverage with $500 deductable and uninsured motorist protection.

Keep an eye on Craigslist as well for a "seized" or "blown" engine, or a "roller"/"rolling" chassis. Lots of people get the bike for it's engine to use in a dune buggy or kart.

DO NOT, and I can't stress this enough, DO NOT buy a vehicle without a title. It's a huge pain in the ass to get one if it's just a bill of sale. Even if it's rebuilt/salvage title, make sure it's got one when you buy.


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## theFREElaker (Jan 17, 2012)

Those insurance rates are pretty nice looking  but then again I am only 19, so it might be a lil more. I'll keep scouring Craigslist thanks for the input. I am going to run some calculations on some theoretical values and figure out what kind of specs I am looking at, then I'll get back to you about that


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## theFREElaker (Jan 17, 2012)

I found a 2001 suzuki hayabusa rolling chasis, will going with that big of a bike really hurt my acceleration and efficiency? Sure, everything will be a bit heavier but will it be that much different from a 650? I like the idea of not having to worry about space and not having to cram a bunch of batteries in a tight space. What are your thoughts?


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