# Soliton wish list



## dougingraham (Jul 26, 2011)

I have a Soliton 1 and I am glad I decided to get one rather than roll my own. Thank you Evnetics for a fantastic line of controllers!

The controller as is will exceed most peoples conversion needs. But there are a few things I would like to see added to the unit.

1) An over rev output. The controller already watches the RPM if you hook up a sensor. What I would like to see in addition to the rev limiter function that is already in the software is a user selectable RPM which will set an output bit so as to alert the driver with some sort of audible signal. This would come in handy in the event you flub a shift and go down instead of up or simply start down a hill and not realize you are exceeding the rev limit of the motor.

2) User selectable profiles. This is almost supported now with the reverse signal input. I would like to see this extended so that two input bits could be used to select one of four profiles. Examples of this would be Daughter, Valet, Normal, and Sport (or Race). There would be different settings for RPM, Motor voltage and current. These could be selected on the fly. The only real problem is we are already short of inputs.

3) Directly settable throttle endpoints. The system provided works well and it good for most people but I want to be able to put in numbers, either the percentage or actual voltages.

4) Configurable throttle response curves. This is almost supported with the half throttle percentage thing. And that is probably good enough for most things. However I did electronic speed controls for the RC hobby from the early 90's and one of things I researched was throttle curves. You want a different curve for RC boats, RC planes, and RC cars. You can make the throttle feel a lot better by matching curves. And in the case of full size cars where we use mechanical linkages between the throttle pedal and the sensor mechanism there can be non-linearities that could be compensated for in software.

The ones above are mostly possible with just software. The ones that follow will need additional hardware.

5) Cruise control. The idle control loop could be used to hold speed on the highway. Unfortunatly there are just not enough inputs to do a cruise control safely. In addition to a brake input you want an on/off input and a set/accel input, and a decel input. For safety you would also want to disable on clutch pedal, and neutral setting of the transmission and inertia switch trip or airbag deployment. There aren't nearly enough inputs to support this so it can't be added with just software.

6) I would like to see the controller side of the battery current hall sensor made available. You would hook the charger to this point which is outside the built in contactors and then the Soliton could act as a fuel gauge. I know it has been mentioned that the hall sensor is not accurate enough but that could be corrected at the same time as this additional connection is implemented.

7) Finally I am thinking it would be useful to provide a connection to the controller side of the precharge circuit. This could be used as the charger connection or as a connection to a DC-DC converter. This point has the advantage of allowing the other devices to make use of the input filter caps in the Soliton so they would not need as much of their own if any. Other devices in the car can take advantage of the contactors and precharge circuit in the Soliton.


I have other ideas but they get progressively more radical and less likely to be implemented.

Thanks again Evnetics for a great controller!


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## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

Thanks for the thanks. We do appreciate it. We also appreciate well-reasoned feature requests; indeed, many of the cool functions in the Soliton controllers were the result of such requests (including, but not limited to, the gauge drivers, idle, throttle limit, cooling pump output, etc.).

However, there is but one severely overworked microcontroller inside the Soliton controllers, and after 4 years of adding features we are just about out of flash memory. I think the latest tally of free space is something like 700 bytes left. Not even 1k. The only way we can get more space - without designing new hardware - is to hand optimize existing functions to take up less space, a process that is more art than science, and incredibly time consuming. Thus, a feature at this point must either be really compelling, or take up a miniscule amount of memory to be considered. 



dougingraham said:


> ...
> 1) An over rev output...


That is already implemented in a way - the error light blinks slowly if the motor RPM exceeds the set limit (it also blinks slowly if the controller is too hot, or the tachometer signal goes missing... ) - but adding that as another programmable output function shouldn't take up too much memory (I have to be careful about promising such things, though, as I am not the software dude; that's Qer's responsibility).



dougingraham said:


> 2) User selectable profiles....


There is definitely not enough flash memory for this. It's also a bit complex for the people that just want to hook the controller up and go. You can achieve some of this functionality - albeit crudely - with the throttle limit input function. 



dougingraham said:


> 3) Directly settable throttle endpoints.....


You're not the first person to ask for this, but I challenge you to really articulate why you think you want it. Next, try to think about the possible negative consequences of allowing the direct entry of throttle calibration values.



dougingraham said:


> 4) Configurable throttle response curves....


Good idea, if a little messy without resorting to another web page, and both the function itself plus the web page would require too much flash memory.



dougingraham said:


> 5) Cruise control....


Yep. Excellent idea that needs additional hardware to accomplish. My only comment is that there is nothing stopping anyone else from building the hardware to do all this, you know...  



dougingraham said:


> 6) I would like to see the controller side of the battery current hall sensor made available....


The Hall effect current sensor is in the motor loop, not the battery loop, and these sensors are typically only accurate to +/-2%, anyway, so both reasons argue against this. Besides, it would require a modification to the hardware and some loss of backwards compatibility.

However, I've been thinking of something similar for the charger - putting the current monitoring *shunt* (not Hall effect sensor) outside of the box so it can pick up current going into and out of the pack. This is really the device that ought to have this kind of functionality built into it, not the motor controller.




dougingraham said:


> 7) Finally I am thinking it would be useful to provide a connection to the controller side of the precharge circuit....


Oh boy... Letting the outside world have access to the controller side of the precharge circuit... What Could Possibly Go Wrong?®


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## Qer (May 7, 2008)

I'll fill up with additional answers to T's reply. Generally I do like your thinking though...



dougingraham said:


> 1) An over rev output. The controller already watches the RPM if you hook up a sensor. What I would like to see in addition to the rev limiter function that is already in the software is a user selectable RPM which will set an output bit so as to alert the driver with some sort of audible signal.


Hm. Actually not too hard to implement as long as noone comes with the additional request that it should warn for over-rev AND <insert some more tresholds> on the same output. Then it'll get a bit messy... 



dougingraham said:


> 2) User selectable profiles. This is almost supported now with the reverse signal input.


As T said there's the external current limit signals. More complicated than that will be, err, challenging to implement due to the cramped space. Maybe if I had thought of it from the beginning. Anyone happens to own a time machine?



dougingraham said:


> 3) Directly settable throttle endpoints. The system provided works well and it good for most people but I want to be able to put in numbers, either the percentage or actual voltages.





dougingraham said:


> 4) Configurable throttle response curves. This is almost supported with the half throttle percentage thing. And that is probably good enough for most things. However I did electronic speed controls for the RC hobby from the early 90's and one of things I researched was throttle curves. You want a different curve for RC boats, RC planes, and RC cars.


Not convinced this will actually improve anything. Keep talkin'...



dougingraham said:


> 5) Cruise control. The idle control loop could be used to hold speed on the highway. Unfortunatly there are just not enough inputs to do a cruise control safely.


That's not half of it. The RPM input is special for a reason, implementing a cruise control would need a second RPM input with a similar hardware circuitry. That would demand a new CPU and somewhere there it's a completely new product...



dougingraham said:


> 6) I would like to see the controller side of the battery current hall sensor made available.





dougingraham said:


> 7) Finally I am thinking it would be useful to provide a connection to the controller side of the precharge circuit.


Not touching those. Definitely T's domain! 



dougingraham said:


> I have other ideas but they get progressively more radical and less likely to be implemented.


uhoh



Tesseract said:


> However, there is but one severely overworked microcontroller inside the Soliton controllers, and after 4 years of adding features we are just about out of flash memory. I think the latest tally of free space is something like 700 bytes left. Not even 1k.


It's not THAT bad actually, not since I started to store the web pages as compressed data in the controller, before that we actually had negative free space for a while. Now we actually have more than 2kByte free space! LOTS of place for new features... 

But T's argument still stands and there's the additional problem with the slowly increasing CPU load. I've had to trim the code a few times to keep the CPU load at a level I feel is safe. And then there's the RAM. Somewhere back in the days when the first Soliton prototypes started to see daylight we sprung for the biggest CPU in the CPU-family we'd chosen to have lots of space to grow. Well... At least it was a good thought. 

I'm very reluctant to add new features unless I've been convinced it's a really good feature that will be widely appreciated. I think your first point definitely has merits and will ponder if I can at least partly implement your second point by reworking the current limit to be a bit more flexible limitation feature (maybe also limiting motor voltage?) but no promises there!

The rest of your ideas/requests would be worth considering for a potential future new product/rework, but I don't think it'll be implemented in the current Soliton series due to the cramped resources and hardware limitations...


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## piotrsko (Dec 9, 2007)

REGEN

 more for braking than energy recovery.
apparently according to Tess, I'm already doing it, kind-of; but some control would be cooler. Still have that $500 BURNING A HOLE for this.


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## drgrieve (Apr 14, 2011)

Cruise control should be done outside of the controller. If you car doesn't have cruise control then there are after market devices available. In the end for the Soliton it's just a throttle input and the other safety features part of the cruise control module.

For things like user profiles does the web interface support a underlying API or do request s have to follow a certain workflow? If you can just POST new data then an external device (android phone etc) could be used as the interface for additional features like this.

This would leave the Solition for basic setup and the fancy stuff can be offloaded.


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## EVfun (Mar 14, 2010)

dougingraham said:


> 3) Directly settable throttle endpoints. The system provided works well and it good for most people but I want to be able to put in numbers, either the percentage or actual voltages.
> 
> 4) Configurable throttle response curves. This is almost supported with the half throttle percentage thing. And that is probably good enough for most things. However I did electronic speed controls for the RC hobby from the early 90's and one of things I researched was throttle curves. You want a different curve for RC boats, RC planes, and RC cars. You can make the throttle feel a lot better by matching curves. And in the case of full size cars where we use mechanical linkages between the throttle pedal and the sensor mechanism there can be non-linearities that could be compensated for in software.


This reminds me of the old DCP way of handling throttle. The max point was set (I wouldn't recommend going back to that controllers analog method of setting it) but the 0 throttle point was defined as the throttle position measured when the controller was started. The car would never launch on start up because by definition the throttle was zero at start up.

If you held the throttle wide open at startup the car would not move because 0 throttle took priority over the full throttle setting. The downside is that if you held the throttle at about 90 of open when starting the controller you would have a huge dead area in the pedal travel and a very aggressive throttle near the end. 



> 7) Finally I am thinking it would be useful to provide a connection to the controller side of the precharge circuit. This could be used as the charger connection or as a connection to a DC-DC converter. This point has the advantage of allowing the other devices to make use of the input filter caps in the Soliton so they would not need as much of their own if any. Other devices in the car can take advantage of the contactors and precharge circuit in the Soliton.


That scares the crap out of me. However, it could be useful to provide an output that was toggled on during the precharge time. It would be an output to indicate the controller was in precharge that could be used with simple additional circuitry to operate a timed precharge on startup for a DC to DC converter (for those who want to switch them on and off with the car.)


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## skooler (Mar 26, 2011)

Hi All,

Its probably not supported by the hardware/uses to much processing but I think that a really useful feature would be a tach output that could mimick the signal generated by the crank/eccentric shaft position sensor on an ICE. On my RX8 this would be a lifesaver - fooling the ECU into thinking the ICE is still there.

Probably too many possible variations etc.

Perhaps there's a market for an EVNetics unit to fool ECU inputs?

Cheers

Mike


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## piotrsko (Dec 9, 2007)

skooler said:


> Hi All,
> 
> Its probably not supported by the hardware/uses to much processing but I think that a really useful feature would be a tach output that could mimick the signal generated by the crank/eccentric shaft position sensor on an ICE. On my RX8 this would be a lifesaver - fooling the ECU into thinking the ICE is still there.
> 
> ...


my Sol does this quite nicely already which is how it runs the factory installed electric cruise control, speedo and tach. a 555 timer running in asynch mode for the O2 sensor, and a couple of light bulbs and fixed resistors here and there for monitored outputs so the ecu thinks it is in open loop.


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## skooler (Mar 26, 2011)

piotrsko said:


> my Sol does this quite nicely already which is how it runs the factory installed electric cruise control, speedo and tach. a 555 timer running in asynch mode for the O2 sensor, and a couple of light bulbs and fixed resistors here and there for monitored outputs so the ecu thinks it is in open loop.


What tach output are you using on the Soliton? I have a feeling that it will be much simpler than what my RX8's ECU requires!

Some food for thought...

http://foxed.ca/rx7manual/2003mazdarx8/esicont/en/srvc/html/BHE014018880W02.html









Terminal connected: 2U (+)-Negative battery terminal 
• Oscilloscope setting: 2 V/DIV (Y): 5 ms/DIV (X), DC range 
• Measurement condition: Idling after warm-up (no load) 
​


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## dougingraham (Jul 26, 2011)

Tesseract said:


> However, I've been thinking of something similar for the charger - putting the current monitoring *shunt* (not Hall effect sensor) outside of the box so it can pick up current going into and out of the pack. This is really the device that ought to have this kind of functionality built into it, not the motor controller.


I didn't know you were doing a charger. And of course there are two obvious places to put the gas gauge. In the motor controller or in the charger. The charger is slightly preferred because it can reset to full automatically because it knows when you topped up the battery.

I know what you mean when you talk about Hall effect current sensors. It is exceedingly difficult to make them accurate. You need a precision regulated supply and a thermal oven to get them to be well behaved. And then you need to calibrate a mapping function so as to get an accurate reading. Otherwise they are plus and minus a couple of percent. They certainly are easy to use though. Which explains why there are some bad devices out there. Of course there are lots of applications where a couple of percent error doesn't hurt anything.


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## piotrsko (Dec 9, 2007)

skooler said:


> What tach output are you using on the Soliton? I have a feeling that it will be much simpler than what my RX8's ECU requires!


saw nothing that is different with my ECM on your attachments other than throttle signal . Throttle seems to be PWM, hard but not a killer. The test specs do not indicate whether the ECM requires frequency or voltage as the input. The second table hints voltage because of the term duty cycle. In either case ganging the TPS to the potbox solves that problem. your spec sheet didn't indicate pulses per rev or if there was a tooth missing on the CPS drive OR if it gathered rpm data from another signal.

I use the sol #2 output set to tach through a grounding dongle, Sol set for 3 pulses per rev both ends. another dongle could be needed to convert to anything else including skip pulse.


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## ElectriCar (Jun 15, 2008)

I did a search but couldn't find an answer. RE the S5V 5 volt source for the throttle, can I tap that and run it through the motor thermal switch (MTS) and terminate it on Input 1? I looked for the S5V specs but couldn't find it. 

Also would be nice if your connection diagram included an optional MTS wiring. 

RE the pullup resistor. Could that not be included inside the unit?

Lastly, I'm using my old EV500 contactors in parallel as an E-stop and as I understand it, I will have to install a delay feature if I'm turning those contactors on with the IGN to the controller. I'm pondering how to do that short of an on delay timer. Would be nice if the uc didn't fault out on no power until after a time delay.


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## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

ElectriCar said:


> I did a search but couldn't find an answer. RE the S5V 5 volt source for the throttle, can I tap that and run it through the motor thermal switch (MTS) and terminate it on Input 1? I looked for the S5V specs but couldn't find it.


The S5V line is really only supposed to be used for the throttle signal and through the throttle input is heavily filtered to prevent erratic operation from electrical noise, I wouldn't tempt fate by running it through the MTS; use S12V instead.



ElectriCar said:


> Also would be nice if your connection diagram included an optional MTS wiring.


My schematic drawing software isn't really geared towards doing those kind of diagrams so we hired someone to draw them with who knows what program. Thus, we have no in-house ability to edit this drawing. Kind of sad, I know, but, well...

Good suggestion, though. Noting it for whenever we can afford to have a better drawing made.



ElectriCar said:


> RE the pullup resistor. Could that not be included inside the unit?


It could, but it would require a hardware change and it conflicts with my preference to weakly pull down inputs (ie - using a 100k resistor) by default.



ElectriCar said:


> Lastly, I'm using my old EV500 contactors in parallel as an E-stop and as I understand it, I will have to install a delay feature if I'm turning those contactors on with the IGN to the controller. I'm pondering how to do that short of an on delay timer. Would be nice if the uc didn't fault out on no power until after a time delay.


You might not need a delay if you turn on the external contactor and the Soliton at the same time because the Soliton does some self-checks during the boot-up process before it starts precharge. It wouldn't hurt to insert an additional brief delay before precharging begins, though. Noted for the next rev.


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## Qer (May 7, 2008)

Tesseract said:


> It wouldn't hurt to insert an additional brief delay before precharging begins, though. Noted for the next rev.


Hm. One second isn't enough...?


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## azdeltawye (Dec 30, 2008)

dougingraham said:


> ...
> there are a few things I would like to see added to the unit.
> 
> 1) An over rev output. ...


I agree this would be a great option. However I would use it for a different application: My EV conversion has a multi-function display which is part of the OEM instrument cluster (dash) computer. When I enabled the factory tachometer, the low oil pressure warning alarm would trigger (very annoying beep and flashing oil light). After some experimentation and observation I found out that the dash computer is expecting an open oil pressure switch contact from 0 rpm to approx 500 rpm and a closed contact for >1000 rpm. Otherwise it will trigger the alarm. I ended up using a frequency to voltage converter chip to trigger a relay and close a contact when the motor speed was above 750 rpm. 

Having the option to program one of the Soliton outputs to operate a relay at a user-specified motor speed would work perfect for this application. Definitely value-added! And it doesn’t seem like this option would have much CPU overhead…

Put my vote in for this option as well.

Cheers,
Darren

P.S. My Soliton-1 is still performing great after 2.5 years and 23,000 miles. Thanks for the solid reliability!!


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## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

azdeltawye said:


> ...Having the option to program one of the Soliton outputs to operate a relay at a user-specified motor speed would work perfect for this application. Definitely value-added! And it doesn’t seem like this option would have much CPU overhead…




Hmmm... This strikes me as too "vehicle-specific"... That is to say, it does not seem like it would be useful to most of our customers. 

 


azdeltawye said:


> P.S. My Soliton-1 is still performing great after 2.5 years and 23,000 miles. Thanks for the solid reliability!!


Excellent!


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## Yukon_Shane (Jul 15, 2010)

I just thought of a potential new feature: user defined fan/liquid cooling control temperature.

Currently the controller turns on the fans/cooling system at 40C and off again at 35C but it seems to me from looking at some of my log files (example attached) that the controller temp rises pretty quickly from 40C up to 50-60C and thus significant performance reduction. I wonder if it might be beneficially to give the cooling system a bit of a head start by letting it start at say 35C, some weekend warriors may even want to be able to go from cooling on all the time during a race and then back to 40C when they're on the street without having to disconnect wires.


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## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

Yukon_Shane said:


> I...the controller temp rises pretty quickly from 40C up to 50-60C and thus significant performance reduction....


The maximum allowed output current from a Soliton Jr is still 500A at 60C, which is at the top end of the claimed continuous current rating (when liquid cooled) of 450-500A. So there is no performance reduction at all at 60C, much less a significant one!?


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## Yukon_Shane (Jul 15, 2010)

Tesseract said:


> The maximum allowed output current from a Soliton Jr is still 500A at 60C, which is at the top end of the claimed continuous current rating (when liquid cooled) of 450-500A. So there is no performance reduction at all at 60C, much less a significant one!?


Your right, "significant" is an overstatement (function of me writting quickly while at work). More accurately what I should have said is that, with active cooling starting at 40C, and the derating schedule for this controller starting at the same temperature it's difficult to ever get close to the actual rated peak of this controller.

My logger files show my controller reaching 40C somewhere around 400-500 motor amps which means my practicle max amps is really somewhere around 550amps rather then 600amps.

Not a big deal but if I could squeeze another 25-50 amps for a split second by simply changing the startpoint of my cooling system why not. I could just run the cooling system all the time but I'd prefer having it turn on as required.

It's a small thing but if we're creating a wish list....


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## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

Yukon_Shane said:


> ... More accurately what I should have said is that, with active cooling starting at 40C, and the derating schedule for this controller starting at the same temperature it's difficult to ever get close to the actual rated peak of this controller....


Ah... good point. I'm kind of embarrassed I didn't notice that myself! We'll address that in the next code revision, then.


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## Yukon_Shane (Jul 15, 2010)

Tesseract said:


> Ah... good point. I'm kind of embarrassed I didn't notice that myself! We'll address that in the next code revision, then.


It's a pretty easy thing to miss and I think there's good reasons for choosing 40C as the cooling system setpoint: for one thing the soliton1 doesn't start to derate until 55C so 40C seems pretty reasonable but also the steady state temperature for my controller seems to settle in around 30-35C so having the cooling turn on at 40C seems logical.

It's just the unique derating curve of the soliton jr that makes a lower cooling setpoint possibly a better choice. You could always increase the temperature at which the JR starts to derate power


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## GerhardRP (Nov 17, 2009)

Yukon_Shane said:


> It's a pretty easy thing to miss and I think there's good reasons for choosing 40C as the cooling system setpoint: for one thing the soliton1 doesn't start to derate until 55C so 40C seems pretty reasonable but also the steady state temperature for my controller seems to settle in around 30-35C so having the cooling turn on at 40C seems logical.
> 
> It's just the unique derating curve of the soliton jr that makes a lower cooling setpoint possibly a better choice. You could always increase the temperature at which the JR starts to derate power


Perhaps the liquid cooling should turn on at 40C or motor current > 300A, say.
Gerhard


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## dougingraham (Jul 26, 2011)

Almost a month has passed since I started using my EV as my daily driver and I came up with one more item for my wish list. And it is a good one. It is traction control. Yep traction control. And it can be done with just software as everything you need to know to detect a loss of traction is already there. If you have traction the current will go up as the voltage increases. If the current ever suddenly drops as the voltage goes up you have lost traction and to regain it all you need to do is lower the voltage until the current goes back up. You could double check this by watching the RPM. RPM will spike if traction is lost. When you reach the RPM where the back emf starts to kick in the current will drop but at this point the controller is already going to be at 100% duty cycle.

Of course this would require an input so it could be disabled by a switch. The racers would probably love this. An output that indicated traction control was operating would be a good addition as well although I would expect you would know this because the tires should be chirping kind of like they do when ABS kicks in during hard braking.


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## Qer (May 7, 2008)

"just software" he says...


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## dougingraham (Jul 26, 2011)

Qer said:


> "just software" he says...


For a lot of my professional career I wrote code in assembly and I didn't mean this in a disparaging way. What I meant was that existing hardware could (probably) take advantage of this "wish" without modification. I don't know what the actual internals of the Soliton 1 look like. When mine showed up I wanted to look inside but I managed to resist the urge. It is entirely possible that there isn't enough performance in the cpu to support the additional calculations necessary in the inner control loop. But you know better than anyone else what that part of the code looks like and how changes there can affect other things.


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## Qer (May 7, 2008)

dougingraham said:


> What I meant was that existing hardware could (probably) take advantage of this "wish" without modification.


Mmmm. I've toyed with ideas like this back and forth for a while, but the tricky part is detecting things like that in a reliable way. Ordinary you detect it by comparing speeds between the tires, if they offset too much one tire is spinning. Simple. Detecting it on only one set of data... Not so simple. 

I really don't want to add something that screws up more than it works correctly so if I add something like that it has to be so reliable that it doesn't generate tons of support questions.


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## Otmar (Dec 4, 2008)

Qer said:


> "just software" he says...


I call that a SMOP, a Simple Matter Of Programming. It's what the hardware guys say to tease the software guys. What's the problem? It's just a SMOP! 

Says the guy who is in the middle of implementing those SMOPs since I do all the hardware and the software for the Zilla. I have a lot of arguments with myself sometimes...


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## ElectriCar (Jun 15, 2008)

I see this thread hasn't been updated in a while so don't know if this has been addressed but I'd like to be able to set the fan "ON" setpoint to 45C or so. When it's 95F or more outside my pump seldom cuts off due to the low differential with the ambient air.


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## skooler (Mar 26, 2011)

ElectriCar said:


> I see this thread hasn't been updated in a while so don't know if this has been addressed but I'd like to be able to set the fan "ON" setpoint to 45C or so. When it's 95F or more outside my pump seldom cuts off due to the low differential with the ambient air.


I use a latching relay if that helps


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## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

ElectriCar said:


> ...I'd like to be able to set the fan "ON" setpoint to 45C or so. When it's 95F or more outside my pump seldom cuts off due to the low differential with the ambient air.


I'll consider shifting the coolant pump on/off temps up 5C in the next code release, but it will remain a hard-coded parameter, mainly to keep the clutter on the web interface page to a minimum.

We've been working on a couple other features/changes to the code as well, but have been sidetracked by a major engineering project for the last few months. It's not a DIY-EV related project, but that's a good thing, as we needed to branch out a little bit and not be the proverbial one-trick pony.

Anyway, probably in another month we'll have time to work on the Soliton code again.


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