# Noob starting 1977 Fiat 124 Spider conversion - opinions welcome!



## valerun (Nov 12, 2010)

Hi All, 

I am relatively new to this whole thing but wanted to own an electric car for a long time! In fact, I am in line for Tesla Model S delivery sometime in ...2013. But my wife and I have decided that we can't wait that long and that's why we just bought our donor car - a 1977 Fiat 124 Spider. Always had a soft spot for Italian cars and the right kind of California rust-free, bright-red beauty just came along... Runs good so I might not be getting a dead-engine super-deal some of you guys are getting but I figured I'd just try to sell the engine, etc. on craigslist.

My target parameters (edited from the original design):
* Range: 60+ miles (with 50% of those miles on the freeway)
* top speed: 65 (to be able to go on the freeway)
* 0-60mph: less than 6s 
* clutch and transmission stay in
* donor car weight is ~2000lbs, I intend to stay under 2500 once all the batteries etc are in.

So after reading a bunch of stuff here, doing some more online research and reading a "Build Your Own Electric Vehicle" book, I have tentatively decided on the following "Big3":
1. Kostov 11" motor
2. Soliton1 340V/1000A controller
2. LiFePo4 192V 100Ah pack. 

I was thinking of buying motor and controller and some related parts from EV Source (evsource.com), and batteries from ElitePowerSolutions.com (they seem to have good prices for complete systems). 

I know 11" is probably an overkill for this small car but I am thinking to maybe upgrade its tranny later and for now run with controller limited at 500A or something like that. My other car is a tuned BMW 335xi (400+ whp) so I do place some premium on performance LOL 

I have some good basic EE and CNC machining skills / experience and am planning to make a lot of things like battery racks, motor coupling plates etc. Maybe even chargers etc if I can't get a good deal from the vendors. 

So what do you guys think? Would love to hear some feedback on config, what the best sourcing options are, etc. From what I read, I understand that I am looking at a ~$15K conversion... 

Thanks!
Valery.


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## madderscience (Jun 28, 2008)

Sounds like you've got a pretty good plan and the wherewithal to complete it. Just a couple of thoughts:

1) Make sure that the maximum safe discharge rate on the 60AH lithium cells will be sufficient to provide the oomph that the controller and motor are capable of handling. You will probably be a bit over the 1C rate just to maintain 60mph. You might be better off with 100AH cells. More range too 

2) A warp 9" can make plenty of power and will rev up better than the warp 11; especially if it is given the Jim Hustead treatment. Also substantially lighter. 

3) Not too familiar with the fiat 124, but if it is a rear drive car then you could think about direct drive in which case the warp 11 would be a good choice and the extra weight would be canceled out by removing the transmission. 

Good Luck and welcome to the forum.


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## Guest (Nov 12, 2010)

11" is most likely over kill but if its what you want and it fits go for it. Nice car by the way. I'd go with the larger AH Lithiums from the start. It would be expensive to upgrade those. Im going to be using an 11" in my VW Bus. Over kill! you bet. Get a Soliton1. It has a proven track record that is excellent even for a reasonably new controller. Warp does not have the coverage as the Soliton1. The Warp 11" is a good motor. Get the newest model as it has the most and most recent upgrades. A very good deal. I am not using one but have two 11" Kostov motors. 

Pete


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## EVfun (Mar 14, 2010)

I have a pack of 60 amp hour Thundersky Lithium cells and they are good, but not good enough for what I think you have in mind. 

I make my cells pull 5C, 300 amps. My 40 cells sag down to 116 volts at that current level (about 2.9 vpc.) I don't know how much harder they can be flogged while holding an acceptable voltage level though I plan to turn it up to 6C (360 amps) in the future because nothing is getting warm. I catch a certain amount of flack for my willingness to go past 3C but based on how stiff my newer TS cells are under load I don't think it will be a problem. 

If you can get 360 amps at 140 volts under load then you would have about 60 horsepower to work with. Your post suggests that you expect more.


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## valerun (Nov 12, 2010)

gottdi said:


> 11" is most likely over kill but if its what you want and it fits go for it. Nice car by the way. I'd go with the larger AH Lithiums from the start. It would be expensive to upgrade those. Im going to be using an 11" in my VW Bus. Over kill! you bet. Get a Soliton1. It has a proven track record that is excellent even for a reasonably new controller. Warp does not have the coverage as the Soliton1. The Warp 11" is a good motor. Get the newest model as it has the most and most recent upgrades. A very good deal. I am not using one but have two 11" Kostov motors.
> 
> Pete


Thanks Pete & all for feedback! What do you mean by 'coverage'? they spec WarpDrive at 160V x 1000A so should be good for 160kW peak power, no?

Re Warp9 vs Warp11 - I was mostly swayed by higher torque constant of Warp11. As you guys rightly mentioned, I will probably have a hard time reaching very high amperage so I thought motor with higher torque constant would be the ticket. 

Re battery pack - you guys do have a point there. I just thought I'd start with 60Ah - put the whole thing in the engine bay together with the motor & controller, and then add another 100Ah pack in the trunk wired parallel to the first pack. Going to be more expensive than just buying 160Ah pack I know but not sure by how much - if just 5-10% more, no big deal I think...

Thanks again for feedback. Driving the donor to my house tomorrow!


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## madderscience (Jun 28, 2008)

I think by "coverage" Gottdi was basically saying more people are using the soliton 1 and it has built up a good track record so far. The warp controller is the new(est) kid on the block at the moment.

The torque constant for a motor states that for so many amps going through it, you get so much torque. With a bigger motor, you are going to see a bigger torque constant. Its pretty obvious why if you think about it; given a certain amount of magnetic force, the longer its lever arm (the diameter of the rotor) the more torque it can put on the shaft. However what isn't immediately obvious is the maximum RPM for the same amount of power (volts * amps) will be less. In other words, for the same amount of input power, a bigger motor gives you more torque and less RPM and basically the same amount of overall power.

It won't do you any good to have a motor and controller that can handle 160KW if the batteries cannot put it out. That is everybody's concern with the 60AH thunder sky cells you are considering. Neglecting voltage sag under load, you would need 1000A at 156V to get near 160KW. Not a good idea with the 60AH lithiums. 100's might take if for a few seconds at a time, and 160's should be OK as long as it isn't constant. If you really want a small, light pack there are other types of lithium out there such as headway cells, A123s and lithium polymer chemistries whose brand names I can't remember right now that can dish out 10C or more continuously; but they are going to be more complex and more expensive to set up.


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## EV-propulsion.com (Jun 1, 2009)

Nice project, but there is one error in your battery calculations:
_"I just thought I'd start with 60Ah - put the whole thing in the engine bay together with the motor & controller, and then add another 100Ah pack in the trunk wired parallel to the first pack. Going to be more expensive than just buying 160Ah pack_ "

Never mix different size (AH) batteries in the same pack, either in parallel or series- they will not add together, and in actuality you will still only have a 60 ah pack- (your pack is only as big as your weakest cell) , in theis case 60ah. If you ran this without a low voltage cell warning, you would draw down the 60ah cells to the point of damaging them severly. There is no shortcut way to avoid buying the correct size (ah) battery upfront, the best you can do is start with a lower voltage pack to save some money and get the car moving, then add (the same size) batteries later to give you more voltage.
You could of course parallel equal sets of 60ah batteries that would give you 120ah at the same voltage.
Mike
www.EV-propulsion.com


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## tomofreno (Mar 3, 2009)

Lot of good comments here, and agree you have the skills and have done some good preparation. Just want to add to the chorus suggesting larger Ah cells from the getgo or higher power density cells like Headway, or, if you are rolling in money, Kokams, for the reasons already given. I think you will have lots of problems with 60Ah cells under the conditions you plan. Better to avoid the headaches if you can.


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## dimitri (May 16, 2008)

Valery,

welcome to the forum and congrats on a beautiful donor!

There are couple of major issues with your plan, however, as many have pointed out. Also, you missed a critical data point, desired EV range, without which all battery discussions lose their point.

You can build a great EV with monster motor and small high performance battery ( not the one you plan, sorry ) , burn rubber every time you step on the pedal and have an exellent performance for whopping 5 miles 

Somehow I don't think this is what you have in mind for your Spider. Assuming you want to have at least 30-40 miles range to enjoy your convertible around town, not a race strip, here is what I would suggest.

1. Drop from Warp11 to Warp9. You will gain 100lb and $1000 you can use for more battery. Warp9 can burn rubber in this car, so Warp11 is a waste.
2. Get Soliton1, it will look so beautiful under the hood of that Spider, make it a visual centerpiece, plus gives you proven 1000Amp performance, more than you will ever need. I bet you don't even need water cooling with Soliton1, it won't break a sweat on your tiny car.
3. Forget about 60AH pack, its not going to cut it. Go for at least 100AH at 156V. In fact, see how many 100AH cells you can reasonably put in the car, front and back, to get highest voltage you can get. Soliton1 can take up to 300V and chop it down to any motor voltage you want, increasing motor current and decreasing battery current. This will give you best top speed and best acceleration.
4. As for buying a battery as a kit, its not always best option. You lose flexibility of choices. Its just as good to get cells alone and pick whatever BMS/Instumentation fits your needs and budget. I am biased on the subject, so I will leave it at that 

Also, assuming you are keeping the transmission, you didn't mention it, so I want to check. Direct drive won't cut it.

Hope this helps.


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## valerun (Nov 12, 2010)

Thank you guys again!

sorry for missing some params:
* Range: 25+ miles (with 50% of those miles on the freeway)
* top speed: 65 to be able to go on the freeway)
* 0-60mph: less than 6s (eventually, with the full pack - see below for changes to my strategy based on your comments)
* clutch and transmission stays in
* donor car weight is ~2000lbs, I intend to stay under 2500 once all the batteries etc are in.

I think I will heed the warning and start with 100Ah at 144V or something like that, with voltage additions thereafter.

I was definitely looking at getting batteries separately and adding miniBMS onto them, dimitry. I am just new to this so ready-made packs represent certain attractiveness to me 

Re the motor - you're probably right that's W11 is overkill - I am just trying to compensate for lower max amp capability of my battery pack with higher torque constant. I know the tradeoff between that and max RPM for a given power level but on the other hand I care a lot about the starting / low RPM torque (see my 0-60 requirements). 

I have also looked at Kostov motors - some serious stuff there. Anyone with experience with both Warps and Kostovs - can you help me out with which might be better for this application? Kostov has 250V 11" that's 20kg lighter than Warp 11 but as usual, manufacturer's performance curves don't tell the high end of the performance...

Thanks!
Valery.


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## Qer (May 7, 2008)

valerun said:


> Re the motor - you're probably right that's W11 is overkill - I am just trying to compensate for lower max amp capability of my battery pack with higher torque constant. I know the tradeoff between that and max RPM for a given power level but on the other hand I care a lot about the starting / low RPM torque (see my 0-60 requirements).


Hm. You're almost right, but you're missing the whole picture. I'll try to explain how I mean.

At 72 Volt and 300 Ampere the Warp 9" gives ~60 lbs/ft while the Warp 11" gives ~75 lbs/ft, but at the same time the 9" will rotate at ~2200 rpm while the 11" will only reach ~1800. Now, the power you get out is rpm * torque (although you have to compensate for the units you use) and those numbers gives roughly the same power out so by getting a bigger motor you just trade rpm for torque, pretty much like when you shift gears in the gear box.

Now; motor amps doesn't equal battery amps. This has been covered several times in the forum so I'll just give you the answer directly since I'm in a bit of a hurry. A controller converts power to power, pretty much like a motor or gear box does. This means that when you convert stored battery power to horse powers that propel the car, you can choose if you want more torque or rpm, but power stays the same.

The amount of power you get out will be the maximum current you can draw from your pack multiplied with the pack voltage, if you can get max 300 Amps from the pack at 150 Volt it means you get 45kW. You can have them at 1000 motor Amps at 45 Volt, 600 motor Amps at 75 Volt or 300 motor Amps at 150 Volt, but it's still just 45 kW. Same in the drive train, you can select different motors, change gears etc and thus get more or less torque at less or more rpm but in the end you get 45 kW.

The Soliton (or any other controller) can always give you maximum motor current no matter what pack you connect, but when rpm goes up the voltage over the motor will follow and at a certain point battery current will reach maximum current. At that time a smart controller (that's set up correctly) will start to limit motor current to protect the batteries while a dumb controller will just gladly increase the battery current until you damage your pack.

And now I have to go. Have to pick up missus at the train. I'll gladly answer questions when I'm back!


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## dimitri (May 16, 2008)

valerun said:


> I was definitely looking at getting batteries separately and adding miniBMS onto them, dimitry. I am just new to this so ready-made packs represent certain attractiveness to me


This is the easiest part of the project for anyone who can tell positive terminal from negative  Plenty of help in Battery forum section. No such thing as ready made pack anyway, you still have to assemble everything.
If you plan to increase the pack later, the best way is adding same size cells in series and get more volts than adding strings of smaller cells in parallel, this is the worst thing you can do. However, 2 things to consider up front. Charger with adjustable voltage and high upper limit and controller with high voltage limit. Controller is easy, Soliton is the answer. Charger is not so easy, only Manzanita can do it, but its expensive and not isolated, although still one of the most popular chargers on the market. Choices, choices....


> Re the motor - you're probably right that's W11 is overkill - I am just trying to compensate for lower max amp capability of my battery pack with higher torque constant. I know the tradeoff between that and max RPM for a given power level but on the other hand I care a lot about the starting / low RPM torque (see my 0-60 requirements).


Controller will compensate current for voltage and vice versa. At low RPM controller will dish out high motor current while keeping battery current low since motor voltage is low. At high RPM Warp11 won't help either since its RPM limit is lower. I'm not a motor expert but I doubt W11 will help you since battery is your bottleneck no matter what. Might as well get $1000 more and 100lb more battery, better bang for your buck.


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## EV-propulsion.com (Jun 1, 2009)

Hey Val,
Head spinning yet? But in agreement with Dimitri and others, really the best recommendation (which we use for a minimum) is something along the lines of 160 ah batteries if using prismatic cells. This will keep your C draw down to reasonable levels, eliminate many extra batteries (as in series parallel arangements), and you could conceievable start with as low as 120 volt system to keep the initial cost down and add more in series later to raise the voltage/performance/range(through lower current draw all things being equal). The advantages to this are you won't be creating high C draws from your pack extending their life (and 500a battery current(a little over 3C) is not uncommon, especially if you like a little performance) and you get extra range!. yes it can be done with 100AH cells,(EVfun is proving that with his 60ah cells) and many have used them (some with and some without sucess), but constantly worrying about amp draw while driving is not enjoyable. 
It hurts upfront to buy the larger cells, but you won't regret it after you are rolling. _Do some more research here before you pull the trigger_ on buying batteries. 
Also a good point by Dimitri, consider what charger you can use if you are planning to change things later.
Mike
www.EV-propulsion.com


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## valerun (Nov 12, 2010)

ok great. This was awesome help, guys! I think I am going to go with 100-160Ah, starting with 120-144v then. Will also likely step down to Warp9. Does any one of you have experience with Kostov motors though and can give some perspective on how they compare with Warp? As I mentioned, Kostov 11" is 20kg lighter than Warp 11 with similar (at least on paper) performance...

Lastly, any recommendation on what the best sources for batteries are? I have been looking at Elitepower and EV Source so far...

Thanks!


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## peggus (Feb 18, 2008)

Awesome choice of car if I may say so, I may be a bit biased though.

If you do go with an 11" motor, just skip the transmission and go direct drive, you'll make up for the added weight and you'll still have awesome performance. My 1977 fiat 124 has a 9" ADC with a 500A Curtis controller and I have no problem driving around in 4th (1:1 gear), heck I can even take off in 5th gear going uphill. If you're in socal you're welcome to come over for a test drive. 

I also agree that you should go with at least a 100Ah battery pack if you use thundersky or similar batteries.


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## dimitri (May 16, 2008)

If you want to get freeway speeds, start with at least 40 cells ( 128V nominal ) ideally plan to go to 48 cells or more if you can fit them and afford them. The more cells, the more voltage and overall energy capacity, the better.

This is number one lesson I learned with my conversion. If I was to do everything again, I would squeeze few more cells in. 40 was the minimum for my car to get decent top speed. I can still get to 80mph, but acceleration drops at high RPM due to back EMF rising.

Cell size is most critical decision you must make. You are constrained by available room, weight and cost. More cells is better for voltage reasons, but keep an eye on C ratings. Since your car is reasonably small, you might be OK with 100AH cells, but try to compensate by higher cell number/voltage.

You can also gauge the range by using 350Wh/mile rule of thumb. Say the pack of 40 cells 100AH would be ( 40*3.2V*100AH = 12800Wh ) / 350Wh/mile = 36 miles to 100DOD, or 29 miles to 80% DOD. This is another reason to get more cells.


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## valerun (Nov 12, 2010)

peggus said:


> Awesome choice of car if I may say so, I may be a bit biased though.
> 
> If you do go with an 11" motor, just skip the transmission and go direct drive, you'll make up for the added weight and you'll still have awesome performance. My 1977 fiat 124 has a 9" ADC with a 500A Curtis controller and I have no problem driving around in 4th (1:1 gear), heck I can even take off in 5th gear going uphill. If you're in socal you're welcome to come over for a test drive.
> 
> I also agree that you should go with at least a 100Ah battery pack if you use thundersky or similar batteries.


Thanks peggus! The question is: will that get me to 0-60 in under 6 seconds... Here are some calcs I just did to check that for direct drive:
1. Assume final drive of 3.5 
2. Tire radius of 10 inches, or 0.8 feet
3. Assume motor torque of 300ft*lbs throughout 0-60 (with this final drive and tire size, will be around 3500-4000RPM at 60mph; this is Warp11 spec at 1000A)

This gets me traction force at the wheels of 300*3.5/0.8 = 1260lbs, which means 0.5g acceleration force. If sustained over 0-60, that gets me to 27m/s (60mph) in 5.5s. Kinda checks out...

But, a couple of issues:
1. getting 1000A. Not sure what the voltage at the motor would be at this rating (this is outside of the performance curves published by manufacturer...). My pack might not be able to deliver...
2. Motor efficiency is lower at low RPM, isn't it? So I will be wasting more energy when going anywhere below 50-60mph...

Comments?

Thanks!


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## Qer (May 7, 2008)

Here's a performance graph from when we were testing the tachometer input on the Soliton 1.










Just ignore that RPM is stuck at 1000 RPM in the graph, it was a pretty early version of the code and we were testing the accuracy, which was spot on once the software started to register pulses at about 1018 on the X-axis in the graph. 

Anyway, I don't remember if we used a WarP 9" or a Kostov 9" at the time, but I think it's a WarP and, well, it shouldn't differ very much anyway. So for a 9" to run at 3500 RPM you need about 100 Volt, you will need more when current goes up since the internal resistance in the motors are a few tens of milliOhm (I think we measured about 20 mOhm for a WarP 9") so I think Dimitri's pretty spot on when he claims that 40 cells won't quite cut it. 40 cells will definitely be too few if you go with a WarP 11" since you get less RPM per Volt with a bigger motor.

Oh, and almost no pack can handle 1000 Amps. If you really want high current over the whole RPM-range your pack probably won't fit in your car anyway, unless you go for A123 or some other serious stuff with 2 digit C-rating. However, they're pricey, if you have to ask for the price you probably can't afford it anyway. 

The Soliton, Zilla and probably also Warp-Drive can limit battery current, it's the only economical way to do it. They will provide full motor current until the battery current starts to get dangerously high (as a result of motor voltage rising) and then they will dial down motor current to protect the batteries. So what you will get is a performance graph with flat torque curve and increasing power up to a certain RPM when motor voltage has risen so high that battery current has reached it's limit, from there on the power curve will turn flat and torque will start to drop instead.

If you have a pack with too low pack voltage the power curve will start to drop again when motor voltage reach pack voltage, but if your pack voltage is high enough (typically 200 Volt or above for single motors) your power curve will stay flat until the motor overrevs and turns into scrap metal. That is, if you haven't added a tachometer so the controller can cut off the power before you scrap the motor.


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

Hi Valerun
I am going with an 11 inch and direct drive - but my car is a bit lighter (650Kg) 
You will need 1000 amps to spin your wheels
I think that is a wee bit high,

with a gearbox you will be able to spin tires at a lot less amps - this will help your battery choice

I think you have a nice fiat 5 speed, I would use that 

The other reason I went with direct drive is that I put the motor where the gearbox would have gone - this left the whole motor bay for batteries


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## peggus (Feb 18, 2008)

Well, my 1977 fiat has a 4.3:1 final drive but your math is about right.

I've got a 144V nominal pack and my torque seems to start to fall off above 3000rpm somewhere, so you're definitely going to need a higher voltage pack to keep the motor fed with full current all the way to 60, as Qer and Dimitry has pointed out. 

Oh and the fiat transmission can't take much more than 160 ftlbs of torque IIRC, I can't find the exact number right now but it definitely wasn't 300ftlbs. You can swap in a 131/brava transmission but that seems like a lot of work: http://www.mirafiori.com/faq/content/131transswap/131transswap.htm
Skip the tranny, you won't be disappointed.

The efficiency suffers a bit at lower RPM but it is pretty flat from 2000 to 4000 rpm where you'll be most of the time. The efficiency loss of the transmission should not be underestimated either.




valerun said:


> Thanks peggus! The question is: will that get me to 0-60 in under 6 seconds... Here are some calcs I just did to check that for direct drive:
> 1. Assume final drive of 3.5
> 2. Tire radius of 10 inches, or 0.8 feet
> 3. Assume motor torque of 300ft*lbs throughout 0-60 (with this final drive and tire size, will be around 3500-4000RPM at 60mph; this is Warp11 spec at 1000A)
> ...


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## valerun (Nov 12, 2010)

peggus said:


> Well, my 1977 fiat has a 4.3:1 final drive but your math is about right.
> 
> I've got a 144V nominal pack and my torque seems to start to fall off above 3000rpm somewhere, so you're definitely going to need a higher voltage pack to keep the motor fed with full current all the way to 60, as Qer and Dimitry has pointed out.
> 
> ...


Thanks peggus. Yes, you're right - the tranny probably will be swapped out for a 131 - I can get good used condition for $300 on ebay. holds up to 400whp according to the Fiat enthusiasts... Let's me use smaller motor, too.

Re the motor - really am trying to figure out now if I should go Warp9 or Kostov 11". I heard good things about Kostov 11": interpoles should help with commutation, higher voltage may mean lower resistive losses, etc. What do you think?

I am now convinced I should go for Solution1 as the controller. 

One other question I have is pack configuration. I am going for ~30kWhr pack eventually. What is the better approach in your opinion: get to 120V with 160Ah and then add more (in series) to get ~200V or start with 156V with 100Ah and then add more to get ~300V?

Thanks!!!!
Valery


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## dimitri (May 16, 2008)

You can fit 60 160AH cells in that car?  Without losing passenger seat?

I thought you only needed 30-40 miles range. 30kWh pack will give you 100 miles range, but the car will be heavy.


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## valerun (Nov 12, 2010)

dimitri said:


> You can fit 60 160AH cells in that car?  Without losing passenger seat?
> 
> I thought you only needed 30-40 miles range. 30kWh pack will give you 100 miles range, but the car will be heavy.


Hi Dimitri, yes, I am loosing the back seats - they are non-functional anyway for real people  I can fit at least 28 cells under the hood and another 28 in the back seat. Trunk stays free. On the range - I need freeway speeds and I expect to drive the thing rather hard on stop lights and general acceleration ;-)

So would you say higher Ah or voltage? (can controller output higher voltage than a battery pack? - would be a part of the decision, esp if I go for 250V Kostov motor...)


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## dimitri (May 16, 2008)

valerun said:


> So would you say higher Ah or voltage? (can controller output higher voltage than a battery pack? - would be a part of the decision, esp if I go for 250V Kostov motor...)


Controller cannot output more volts than the pack voltage. To take advantage of Soliton its best to go for higher voltage. 120V will not give you great freeway performance, so I would go with 100AH cells and get max voltage. Then, I would program battery current limit in Soliton to 250Amp ( 2.5C ), to spare the pack from abuse.
Then, later as you add more cells, your performance and range will increase even higher.

Also, don't forget to set the motor voltage limit in Soliton, so you don't kill your motor. You will need to do it once you cross the 180V line, I believe, or somewhere in that region.


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## PatricioIN (Jun 13, 2008)

120volt will absolutely give you free way speeds. May car was 3200lbs with lead acid and it could get up to 70mph easily.


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## dimitri (May 16, 2008)

PatricioIN said:


> 120volt will absolutely give you free way speeds. May car was 3200lbs with lead acid and it could get up to 70mph easily.


We probably have different opinions regarding performance  Where we live and how we drive might have something to do with it too. My old Miata EV with lead acid could get to 70mph easily, but it was too heavy and acceleration was not as good as stock Miata. I guess when I look at EVs now I compare with stock gas performance at least. If its not the same as gas, I can't call it great, even though it might be perfectly acceptable for day to day driving.

I hate to sound cocky, but if I have to stick to the right lane on the freeway to avoid being run over by semi's, then I'd rather not get on freeway at all, especially with Electric signs all over the car, giving our cause a black eye.

That's just my personal view, no offense...


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## galeson (Oct 25, 2009)

Valerun,

Have you read rwaudio's blog where he goes through the same decision process you are now going through? I am now building my car and come to the same conclusions he did.


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## valerun (Nov 12, 2010)

galeson said:


> Valerun,
> 
> Have you read rwaudio's blog where he goes through the same decision process you are now going through? I am now building my car and come to the same conclusions he did.


Hi galeson, I read http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showthread.php?t=48447&highlight=rwaudio - is this what you're referring to? Or there's some other link?

Thanks!
V


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## EVfun (Mar 14, 2010)

I've had no trouble going freeway speeds with 120 volts with Prestolite or ADC 8 inch motors. Looking at 3 different motors, the Impulse 9, Warp 9, and Warp 11, the torque at 300 amps is very different. I chose those 3 because the data is all posted at EVsource and the Impulse 9 is designed to have almost exactly same torque curve as the ADC 8 inch.

The Impulse 9 makes 39 ft-lb of torque at 3400 rpm with 72 volts at 300 amps. (25.2 HP)
The Warp 9 makes 59 ft-lb of torque at 2250 rpm with 72 volts at 300 amps. (25.3 HP)
The Warp 11 makes 74 ft-lb of torque at 1800 rpm with 72 volts at 300 amps. (25.4 HP)

Depending on the voltage and current you plan to run the smaller motor may be a better match to the stock gearing. You can't use rpm range alone, however, because you must also select a motor large enough to not overheat with the power required. The Warp 9 or ADC 9 is about the smallest motor I would run in a 3000 lb. EV. My 2100 lb. Datsun is running an ADC 8 and many other small car conversions have been very successful with that motor or the shorter and fatter Impulse 9.


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## galeson (Oct 25, 2009)

He has a blog as well.

www.electricporsche.rwaudio.com


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## peggus (Feb 18, 2008)

I don't know if the kostov 11 is better than the warp 9 or not, my only experience is with Advanced DC 9", the warp 9 is essentially a copy. It is hard to say which would be better since none of the DC motor manufacturers publish very good performance curves. 

The soliton seems to be a very good and solid controller.

I ran a 120V pack for a while, it did get to freeway speed but just barely. I think you'll be happier with a higher voltage pack.





valerun said:


> Thanks peggus. Yes, you're right - the tranny probably will be swapped out for a 131 - I can get good used condition for $300 on ebay. holds up to 400whp according to the Fiat enthusiasts... Let's me use smaller motor, too.
> 
> Re the motor - really am trying to figure out now if I should go Warp9 or Kostov 11". I heard good things about Kostov 11": interpoles should help with commutation, higher voltage may mean lower resistive losses, etc. What do you think?
> 
> ...


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## valerun (Nov 12, 2010)

So, spent some time (no, make it a LOT of time LOL) reading through a ton of posts here for some education on battery tech, controllers, motors, etc. Wanted to share my latest thoughts on setup and ask for your opinion.

So I am now thinking of:
1. Soliton 1
2. Warp 9
3. Swap out native 124 transmission for 131 model (steel vs. native's brass) to handle up to 400 ft*lb of torque.

So far pretty standard. However, I also want to use my $3K controller to the fullest and get 1000A to the motor. OTOH, as you know, Fiat 124 is no truck so I can't just put 60 200AH cells in that thing 

So that got me thinking - would it be possible to design a "hybrid pack" with 2 sub-packs wired in parallel:
1. 'slow' (CALB/TS) pack designed for range & steady freeway power draw (for my car ~20kW or 1C from 300V 60Ah pack)
2. 'fast' pack like a string of those crazy RC heli packs (e.g., http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/store/uh_viewItem.asp?idProduct=14616) capable of 90C bursts (450Amps for this particular pack). 

Naturally, the RC suckers are much less 'saggy' than TS/CALBs which is exactly what might make this setup work. The idea is to design 'slow' pack with nominal voltage higher than 'fast' pack nominal (so that, say, there is 4V per fast cell at full charge of the slow pack (3.4V per cell) - or, in other words, a string of ~70 fast cells and a string of ~80 slow cells wired in parallel). Then when I draw low current (steady freeway or less), slow pack does not sag enough to draw much from fast pack. But when I floor it, slow pack sags way down and leaves fast pack to take it. Then, when I ease off the throttle, slow pack goes above fast pack and recharges it (remember, I designed it to provide 4V per cell to the fast pack - a good charging voltage...).

How does that sound to you guys? Has anybody tried it? 

PS. Of course, haven't thought too much about what would happen when my TS's are down at 2.8V at the end of range - would mean 3.2 on the fast ones - wouldn't really charge anything... But anyway, how's the concept?

Thanks as always!!!


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## valerun (Nov 12, 2010)

loved this BTW: http://www.zuglet.com/batteries/batteryList.php


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

Hi Valerun

Something you may like to consider
The controller acts like - a gearbox - in some ways , its a power in power out device

The motor does not need full voltage to get the current

Example - 
a Warp 11 will need about 20V to pass 1000amps
It will generate back EMF - about 150 volts at 4,500 rpm

At low revs - 1000 amps x 20 volts = 300 volts x battery current , (70 amps)
at half revs (2250rpm) - 1000 amps x (20+75) volts = 300 volts x 316 amps
at max revs (4500rpm) - 1000 amps x (20+150) volts = 300 volts x 566 amps

At low revs - 500 amps x 20 volts = 300 volts x battery current , (35 amps)
at half revs (2250rpm) - 500 amps x (20+75) volts = 300 volts x 158 amps
at max revs (4500rpm) - 500amps x (20+150) volts = 300 volts x 286 amps


TS 60Ah batteries are meant to be OK at 3C = 180 amps or 10C for 10 seconds (600amps)

You could use the TS 60Ah batteries and still get 500amps continuous up to almost max rpm and 1000 amps for acceleration

The RC batteries as a stiffener should work - but I'm not sure you need them


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## valerun (Nov 12, 2010)

Duncan said:


> Example -
> a Warp 11 will need about 20V to pass 1000amps
> It will generate back EMF - about 150 volts at 4,500 rpm
> 
> ...


Thanks Duncan. This power-in-power-out business is not fully settled in my head, I think  

Anyway, I think I will start out with a high-voltage pack of 60AH CALB (based on what I read on this forum CALBs are both more consistent in AH and IR cell-to-cell and also higher max discharge) and then, if I see that I am limited by my pack, will add the rocket boosters ;-)

BTW, is your "20V to get 1000A" on Warp 11 real number? Do you have any perf curves for that motor from zero RPM? Mfr spec sheets are pretty non-informative...

Thanks again, 
V


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## peggus (Feb 18, 2008)

Yes, it's possible to design hybrid packs but I wouldn't recommend it to a novice, especially not with Lipo cells since they are very volatile and if something goes wrong they go off like roman candles. You really have to know what you're doing and consider all the failure modes.

The Lipo discharge curve is also much different from thunderskys discharge curve, it would be easier to use a high power battery with similar chemistry as Thundersky, maybe A123, to provide the buffer. Even then it is not trivial.




valerun said:


> So, spent some time (no, make it a LOT of time LOL) reading through a ton of posts here for some education on battery tech, controllers, motors, etc. Wanted to share my latest thoughts on setup and ask for your opinion.
> 
> So I am now thinking of:
> 1. Soliton 1
> ...


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

Hi Valerun

I see you are looking at a Warp9 - I think that is better than a Warp11 because of the Rpm limits 

The numbers - 20mOhms = 20v for 1000 amps are from Qer's post - no18 in this thread

He had 100v = 3500rpm for a Warp9 - if you plug that into my estimates it will reduce the battery current a bit more

My car is not going yet so this is all theoretical!

My take is that the motors are fairly similar, when I get mine running I am going to try and measure 
Current v Torque
Back EMF v Rpm

I havn't bought my batteries yet,
I have designed the space/battery boxes for about 50 TS200Ah

I have ordered an OpenRevolt controller kit (150v 500A)
I am currently planning on 45 TS60Ah
Much lighter also much cheaper!


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## valerun (Nov 12, 2010)

I thought A123 are impossible to get? Anything below 30-50C max discharge wouldn't work that well for "stiffening".

I will plan to start with just CALBs and then see if that gets me what I want without kicking the batteries too much. 

Anyone knows a good source for battery performance data / primers for various lithium batteries that go beyond the usual 0.1-1C curves supplied by manufacturers?

Thanks!
Valery.


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## valerun (Nov 12, 2010)

Duncan said:


> TS 60Ah batteries are meant to be OK at 3C = 180 amps or 10C for 10 seconds (600amps)


Duncan, I thought the burst 10C is meant for VERY short periods of time - milliseconds, not seconds. Maybe I am missing something?


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

Hi valerun

I found the 10 second figure somewhere - I will look and get back to you,

It did make sense to me - if I can use 2 or 3C continously then a five times overload should last at least 10 seconds

My motor is continously rated at 200 amps - I would expect it to survive 1000 amps for at least 10 seconds


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

Hi valerun

I found this from David85 - 15 seconds

http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showpost.php?p=150378&postcount=137


There was another post from China specifying that 10C was OK for 3 seconds with a 3 second rest then 10C again - did not say how long you could keep it up!

15C was 2 seconds with a 4 second rest

I calculate that if I put pedal to the floor on my machine it will take ~ 6-7 seconds to reach 3C - it will exceed that for 3-4 seconds then I will have to lift to prevent my motor overrevving at about 80 mph - I will be running out of voltage about then as well so I may not have to lift as it will self limit

You are planning on a higher voltage pack and a motor that will rev higher but you will probably only be able to exceed 3C for a few seconds 

A123's or headways seen to be available, Headway are about 1.5x the price of Thundersky


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## valerun (Nov 12, 2010)

Duncan said:


> A123's or headways seen to be available, Headway are about 1.5x the price of Thundersky


I thought about the Headway cells but am scared of making too many parallel cell connections. If the IR differs 2x across cells (not sure about headway but as i understand such diffs are common for TS cells, for example), one might be drawing 10C from higher IR cell from parallel group while lower IR cell sees 20C...

I know that CroDriver damaged quite a few of his Headway cells in 8p setup (not sure if exactly for this reason though but still makes me worried...)


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## valerun (Nov 12, 2010)

Duncan said:


> Hi valerun
> I found this from David85 - 15 seconds
> 
> http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showpost.php?p=150378&postcount=137
> ...


Thanks Duncan - 

also found this from CroDriver (he says he got it directly from TS in China):

---------
> - For how long can I discharge the TS-LFP 100Ah cells at 10C (1000Amp)?

Discharge at 10c,it release 1000A/3 second,and then stop 3 seconds,and then release 1000A ……

> - For how long can I discharge the TS-LFP 100Ah cells at 15C (1500Amp)?

Discharge at 15C,it release 1500A/2 seconds,and then stop 4 seconds,and then release 1500A……

> - For how long can I discharge the TS-LFP 100Ah cells at 20C (2000Amp)?

Discharge at 20C,it release 2000A/second,and then stop 5 seconds,and then release 2000A……
--------------

... but he did in the end go with Headway anyway. Must be those 1/4 mile pulls - 12-15 sec of full power so you want at least 10 sec of max current (I believe in his case <=1000A as he was using Soliton1)


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## CroDriver (Jan 8, 2009)

valerun said:


> I know that CroDriver damaged quite a few of his Headway cells in 8p setup (not sure if exactly for this reason though but still makes me worried...)


Nope. It was because of the shitty BMS I had back then... I just discharged the cells until they where 100% discharged 



valerun said:


> ... but he did in the end go with Headway anyway. Must be those 1/4 mile pulls - 12-15 sec of full power so you want at least 10 sec of max current (I believe in his case <=1000A as he was using Soliton1)


I was using a Zilla Z2K (2000 Amp). But the battery sees only about 1400 Amp for a short time (2-3 sec.). The motor gets 2000 Amps until it reaches about 3.000 RPM and then the current starts to decrease on both sides of the controller.


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## valerun (Nov 12, 2010)

CroDriver said:


> Nope. It was because of the shitty BMS I had back then... I just discharged the cells until they where 100% discharged
> 
> I was using a Zilla Z2K (2000 Amp). But the battery sees only about 1400 Amp for a short time (2-3 sec.). The motor gets 2000 Amps until it reaches about 3.000 RPM and then the current starts to decrease on both sides of the controller.


Thanks CroDriver! Sorry I got it wrong. I should read your thread again LOL  Just curious - have you ever considered a hybrid battery pack (with prismatics for range and something like A123 or even LiPo for instantaneous power)?


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## CroDriver (Jan 8, 2009)

valerun said:


> Thanks CroDriver! Sorry I got it wrong. I should read your thread again LOL  Just curious - have you ever considered a hybrid battery pack (with prismatics for range and something like A123 or even LiPo for instantaneous power)?


You mean like having them in parallel with other cells or switching between them with contactors?

I was thinking about paralleling some A123 cells to my ThunderSky pack a year or so ago. But I dropped the idea because of the weight of such a setup and the unknown territory. I don't know if anyone ever tried this.


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## valerun (Nov 12, 2010)

CroDriver said:


> You mean like having them in parallel with other cells or switching between them with contactors?
> 
> I was thinking about paralleling some A123 cells to my ThunderSky pack a year or so ago. But I dropped the idea because of the weight of such a setup and the unknown territory. I don't know if anyone ever tried this.


yes, parallel with other cells. A123 in parallel with TS/CALB would actually work for my application (and for most non-racing but high-performance EV applications) but only if I could get those bloody A123 cels... and in 5-10Ah packages...

Some other people have done A123 in parallel with large prismatics (see Jozzer at http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showthread.php?p=213467#post213467 post #5)... Maybe if there is a reliable way to get ahold of these or similar Lifepo4 cells, I could just do that but doesn't seem to be the way yet. Also, the best Lifepo4 cells are still way behind the best lipo cells in power density (90C burst for 5AH RC cells prepacked in 10-cell packs with BMS for $160 -> that's 450A burst on a 250V pack for ~$1,000...). They are pretty sensitive suckers though...


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

Hi Valerun

The other way to do this is to stiffen your pack up with some ultracaps,

Does anybody have any idea how much sag we should see with TS and 3C, 4C

If we had that we could calculate how many ultracaps we would need for a 20 second? 20C burst


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## valerun (Nov 12, 2010)

Duncan said:


> Hi Valerun
> 
> The other way to do this is to stiffen your pack up with some ultracaps,
> 
> ...


U-caps won't work here - energy stored is ~Capacitance * Voltage^2. Voltage sag expected is just a few tenths of a volt so one would need a super-massive capacitance to have any effect (as in 'would weigh and cost more than a primary pack').

Really, I think stiffer batteries are a way to go - the lower the internal resistance, the better. LiPo is probably the best (90C burst cells are available now) but potentially dangerous. Fast LiFePo4 (40C for 10sec are available now) could also work, esp. given their safety advantages.

Re sag with CALB/TS at 3-4C - this is exactly what I am planning to test soon - see another thread on setup - http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showthread.php?p=214011&posted=1#post214011


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## valerun (Nov 12, 2010)

Interesting info - just got some specs on CALB cells from their Ramona, CA representative. Apparently, CALB cells are now rated for 10C max discharge (<10 seconds, not milliseconds) for 40Ah and 60Ah cells, 8C for 100Ah... IR <0.9 mOhms for 100Ah. Very nice if true... Requested some more engineering data from them - will see. Love the fact that I can pick the cells up in person from their warehouse here in CA, as well...


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## EVfun (Mar 14, 2010)

Duncan said:


> Does anybody have any idea how much sag we should see with TS and 3C, 4C


My LiFeYPO4 TS cells sag to about 2.9 vpc at 5C. I've not been able to see 116 volts yet (40 cell pack), but have pulled it into the 116.x range. I have a 60 amp hour pack and my Zilla is set to 300 battery amps and 600 motor amps. I live dangerously, it's only a $3000 battery pack, right? 

If you have sag but it is not enough, or sustained long enough, to harm your choice of cells then I recommend a few more cells. Let the controller set the maximum motor voltage and ideally have a pack that will not sag that low (and money grows on trees. )


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## valerun (Nov 12, 2010)

Ok the build is officially starting now. Just ordered the first batch of parts - mostly Fiat upgrade parts for now - to stiffen up the suspension (coils + shocks), and to handle torque expected from the new motor (Fiat 1976 131 transmission, good for 400whp). Also, for battery testing (http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showthread.php?p=214532#post214532), a bunch of high-C discharge LiFePo4 and LiPo batteries. The fun begins ) will post pics once I get the parts.

Also getting ready to pull the trigger on Soliton1, Kostov 11" 192V and 60 100Ah CALB cells.


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## valerun (Nov 12, 2010)

ok time for another update. 

1. Transmission and suspension parts arrived. Suspension parts (stiffer coils, new shocks) are installed. The car feels way better - no more bouncy rolls. Now feels kind of like my BMWs ;-)

2. Hacked a PC power supply to use as a DC-DC converter. Pretty slick. Posted in some other thread here - if interested search for $40 DC-DC DIY

3. My fast-discharge battery samples, chargers, etc have arrived and have been put to good use. Completed initial round of testing on A123, Turnigy LiFePo4 and Lipo batteries. Will be posting results soon in a separate thread - if interested, search for 'testing hybrid battery pack'

4. Building my own car control unit, incorporating 6kW charger design from SimonR (search for $200 intelligent charger on this forum), and building in range meters, battery temperature management system, and the booster circuit connecting high-discharge LiPo battery at WideOpenThrottle (kind of like a NOS boost ;-)

5. Ordered most of the components for the actual conversion, including CALB 100AH (60 cells), Soliton1. Will likely go for Kostov11 (192V) as a motor. 

Some pics attached

Hoping to start the main part of the build in Jan, finishing in Feb.

V


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## djbills (Apr 7, 2010)

will be watching closely, valery - please post lots of pics! Very interested in your battery racks, layout, design choices, etc. That is going to be one wicked car when you're done. 

You'll have to bring it on up here to Portland and we can race the White Zombie. Peter, you too! Of course we won't have a chance, but at least we look good.


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## valerun (Nov 12, 2010)

djbills said:


> will be watching closely, valery - please post lots of pics! Very interested in your battery racks, layout, design choices, etc. That is going to be one wicked car when you're done.
> 
> You'll have to bring it on up here to Portland and we can race the White Zombie. Peter, you too! Of course we won't have a chance, but at least we look good.


thank you J ;-) will definitely have to meet up once I'm done. most of the parts arrive first week of Jan (am actually picking up my batteries from LA port on Jan 3 - talk about new experiences ;-). Can't wait. In the meantime, finishing up the charger and vehicle control hardware/software. These Arduino boards are a dream come true...


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## valerun (Nov 12, 2010)

Soliton1 and Kostov 11" on the way! Picking up 60 100Ah CALBs on Jan 3rd in LA! A ton of misc components are on their way from EVsource and Amazon (amazing what kind of stuff Amazon sells these days ;-).

BTW somebody has to figure out the way to create easy to choose packages out of the morass of misc parts required to finish off the conversion (fuses, connectors, DC-DC converter, etc, etc.)...


[rest cross-posted from our charger thread]

quick update: 

- built a big 12x18x6" box out of 16-gauge steel plates to put everything in. This will include my DC-DC converter (hacked from an 800W PC power supply), main fuse, the charger, etc - basically all the small electrical stuff apart from the "Big 3" - controller, motor, and batteries). Rubber mounts to the car frame (similar to http://www.evsource.com/images/mechanical/310-V10Z_2-307A-K.jpg). Inside, a plexiglass plate is mounted on more rubber mounts to the bottom of the box. All the components are then mounted on the plexiglass plate (PCBs, etc).

- assembled the power stage - a 50A bridge, 2 u-fast diodes, 2 inductors (one for protection against reflected current from motor per Tesseract/Jeffrey's suggestion), 2 50A relays, and an IGBT. Diodes and IGBT are heatsinked on CPU cooling systems with individual fans Hope to be able to push 50-60A with this setup, or 10kW!

- built out & tested the thermal management system (both in hardware and software for Arduino). 4 thermistor-controlled channels to get the temp and then control sets of blower+heater (am going to use hairdryers as a starting point ;-). Will be used to manage battery temps (2 battery banks) and motor temps (no heater for the motor ;-), perhaps even a climate system for the salon (they didn't have those fancy climate control systems back in 1977 for our Fiats ;-)

- tested a PWM control circuit and software (using scaled current and voltage signals). Took a bit of time to figure out how to run Arduino PWM at high frequency (default is ~900Hz out of the box). Now running at 16kHz. Can go up to 32, but (1) no need as my 0.4milliH inductor is sufficient for 16kHz, as well, (2) want to limit losses and EMI.

- started writing software and designing hardware for battery monitor - got to use all the capabilities of the Arduino chip, after all. Ordered a MUX shield from Sparkfun to multiplex 48 analog inputs into 3. Will plan to run a (fused, of course) wire from each group of 4 cells into the box, connect to 40mA hall sensors for isolation, and then multiplex in. The controller will then cycle through all cell groups, reading in voltages. 

- Still need to figure out the display part, though - am running out of a 20x4 line display capabilities. Any ideas for a large (ideally graphics) serial display?

Picking up my 60 cells from LA on Jan 3rd, planning to finish assembly of my Vehicle Control Unit (haha! ;-) first week of Jan. Then will test on my batteries and report the results.

Happy holidays everyone!
Valery.


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## Monte (Dec 28, 2010)

I built some Fiat conversion back in the late 70's. All we had was GE motors and EV1 controllers from GE. All we had for batteries was lead. The transmissions are the best and speed shifting was required to move the lead. The final drive is over 4 to 1 and the smaller motors and higher volts will get you better performance. I do not see over 500 amps under hard acceleration for more than a few seconds with our lithium powered Miatas. The higher volts makes for lower amps and is easier on the motors. The Curtis controller will not work over 180 volts but there are some controllers that will run higher if you have the money. Your torque curve is very low and you may consider using a different rear axle to get to 2.5 to 1 ratio. We have been using the high volt Netgain motors and controllers for our larger SUV's. Our motorcycles use the 26650 cells at 120 volts with six speed automatic transmissions. Now that Fiat owns Chrysler we may have some nice cars back in the states.


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## valerun (Nov 12, 2010)

ok guys, picked up my 60 100AH cells today from CALIBPOWER warehouse. Yey! Keegan's awesome. Couple of pics for you. There are a bunch of pods sitting on the floor waiting to be shipped off in the next few days. He said the next shipment comes in mid-Feb.

According to the individual cell info sheets, IR is <0.5 mOhm, with ~20% spread; Capacity is ~108-110 Ah. Measured all 60 cells, all exactly 3.29V. Spec sheet calls for 10-second 800A draw (8C!). This is awesome - means that I can draw 136kW from my pack and still stay within manufacturer's specs! Will give my Soliton1 some workout 

Cheers,
Valery.


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## PatricioIN (Jun 13, 2008)

that's really great.. makes me feel very confident about purchasing from them in the future! Thanks for the info.


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## valerun (Nov 12, 2010)

ok quick update:

1. finished building an intelligent LiFePo4 charger based on Arduino microcontroller, tested to 5-6kW without any problems, target output 8-10kW (40-50A at 200V). See the pic. 110V and 220V capable, automatic switching. total part cost <$500.

2. Upgraded all suspension & steering part on the car. Handles much nicer now. Ready for more power now.

3. Engine is OUT!

4. motor coupler is designed. Looking for machine shop to build. Or will just build it on techshop.ws's CNC machine...

5. Kostov 11" 192V/250V (serial/parallel switchable) is on its way from rebirthauto in Florida.

6. this weekend working on measuring all the internal dimensions under the hood and designing motor mounts, transmission plate, and battery boxes in Solidworks.

Laters.

Valery.


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## valerun (Nov 12, 2010)

couple more pics - getting to the hardest piece now - transmission coupler and plate. None of those hole / cutout patterns are anywhere even close to symmetric! Who designs that stuff, seriously?!

Anyway, wondering if anyone has CAD drawings of the plates / couplers for Fiat Spider...


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## valerun (Nov 12, 2010)

a piece of awesomeness arrived in the mail today... ;-) Now I have all the components. Just need to put it all in ;-)


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## valerun (Nov 12, 2010)

also, just finished my 10kW charger (220V; 4kW from 110V line). Pics below


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## Guest (Feb 23, 2011)

valerun said:


> a piece of awesomeness arrived in the mail today... ;-) Now I have all the components. Just need to put it all in ;-)


Nice controller. Have loads of fun. 

Pete


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## peggus (Feb 18, 2008)

valerun said:


> Anyway, wondering if anyone has CAD drawings of the plates / couplers for Fiat Spider...



Right here, see attachment to this post, it's for clutch-less but at least gives you the location of the holes.
http://www.electric-lemon.com/?q=node/203
And, dimensions are in mm despite what the drawing template says. 

Awesome progress by the way


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## valerun (Nov 12, 2010)

peggus said:


> Right here, see attachment to this post, it's for clutch-less but at least gives you the location of the holes.
> http://www.electric-lemon.com/?q=node/203
> And, dimensions are in mm despite what the drawing template says.
> 
> Awesome progress by the way


Thanks!!!! this is so Awesome! BTW, did you have your coupler built or built it yourself?

V


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## peggus (Feb 18, 2008)

I built it myself. The details can be found here:
http://www.electric-lemon.com/?q=node/213
and here:
http://www.electric-lemon.com/?q=node/218


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## valerun (Nov 12, 2010)

All - first BIG milestone hit - the first trial run around the block yesterday! on 3 12V car batteries in the first gear. 

Using very prototype-y setup: aluminum coupler, no motor mounts beyond a plywood back plate to resist the motor torque ;-)) but it runs! no vibrations BUT now I hear a bunch of different weird noises coming out of different places in the car - I guess they were always there but with the roar of 1977 engine couldn't hear any. Now need to figure out what to do with that ;-)

Awesome stuff! The acceleration from standstill is great - even wat just 36V! Some pics attached. Thanks all for your help so far!

Next up - mounting the motor with a bit more permanent setup, including a carbon steel coupler; installing Soliton1, and installing the first set of ~20 batteries for some more oomph-y test run ;-)


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

Great stuff and well done.

Even just roughed together it is a great feeling to get that first oomph of electric propulsion, even at 36V.


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## valerun (Nov 12, 2010)

finally replaced the high-tech plywood test backplate with the 3/8" steel plate, added I-beam cross-bars between front and back plates, and mounted the whole thing onto the original motor mounts. The motor is no longer touching the crossmember of the car and the whole thing feels pretty sturdy.

Some pics below.

next up - battery boxes. Need to cram at least 200lbs of batteries under the hood or risk poor handling. So little space in this guy, though!.. Thinking of building a number of small boxes out of gauge 14/16 steel or aluminum - each holding from 3 to 5 cells - and mounting them onto the angle steel grid in turn mounted to the frame. Anybody else has any tips for space-starved designs?

V


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## dtbaker (Jan 5, 2008)

valerun said:


> Anybody else has any tips for space-starved designs?


I haven't backed thru the thread to see full pix of your engine bay, but I know I ended up chopping the wavy lumpy front cross member right out of the car and replacing with a nice flat steel u-channel I made from angle iron. gave me enough room for 15 cells.

I also made a steel crossplatform OVER the motor for 'components' and 2 FLA batteries, which I have now revamped to mount charger. I m SURE it acts to stiffen the stock front end considerably as an added bonus.

....anybody want to buy the watering system shown in the last photo? I sure don't need it now that I have Thunderskys installed!


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## valerun (Nov 12, 2010)

Thanks Dan! What did you connect your cross-platform to? was there a frame component you bolted it to?


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## dtbaker (Jan 5, 2008)

valerun said:


> Thanks Dan! What did you connect your cross-platform to? was there a frame component you bolted it to?


if you poke thru the photo gallery, you'll see the handy locations of the existing weld-nuts I used. There are some real sturdy ones right in the 'chassis' pretty much where needed....


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## valerun (Nov 12, 2010)

OK GUYS! 

long time no updates. 

See pics below of my first drive to work! Getting free juice from Google, Inc. we are! ;-))

All done except a couple of things:

1. still using the prototype aluminum coupler. Ok for the break-in period (limiting motor current to 200-300A per major's suggestion on one of these forums) but once I unleash the full power of Soliton1, will need to replace with the new coupler made of stress-proof 1144 steel. 

2. linked to the above, the clutch doesn't really work that well right now as the critical distance was mis-estimated by ~4mm in the design. New coupler will take care of that.

3. replacing all the lights with LED lights (including headlights). ordered some $10 10W LEDs - planning to use 3 per headlight to get the equivalent of 100-120W lamps. Should dramatically reduce the power draw from converter / battery - from ~30A max today to 10A. 

Thanks all for your help with various aspects of the project. I will be posting all the details around my conversion to my site over the next month. For now, just have a write-up of the charger project there: http://www.rusbaevents.com/cgi-bin/Vevents/EMW/VMcharger.pl

V


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## dtbaker (Jan 5, 2008)

very cool, nd nice of google to give you juice!

I would question LED for the headlights.... probably NOT bright enough to be legal or very safe. If you go Xenon power is around 35watts rather than 150watts, and very bright. There are conversion kits, but it is a little expensive as I think they include little transformers to get the volts way up. check out http://www.hidxenonheadlights.com/ as a place to start....


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## valerun (Nov 12, 2010)

dtbaker said:


> very cool, nd nice of google to give you juice!
> 
> I would question LED for the headlights.... probably NOT bright enough to be legal or very safe. If you go Xenon power is around 35watts rather than 150watts, and very bright. There are conversion kits, but it is a little expensive as I think they include little transformers to get the volts way up. check out http://www.hidxenonheadlights.com/ as a place to start....


thanks!

on LED vs. Xenon - I agree that Xenon might be easier to find/install due to availability of the after-market kits. However, LEDs are higher lumen output and do not have problems with frequent cycling. Anyway, I've ordered 20 10W LEDs for testing & some lighting projects. These bad boys are equivalent to 40W regular lamp each. And at $10 apiece, might just be the ticket.

I am planning to machine the aluminum heatsink for 3-4 of them in each headlight - with the other end in the shape of the lamp socket for fit. will report on how that goes.


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## dtbaker (Jan 5, 2008)

interesting! can't wait to see how it turns out. Perhaps just buy a pair of the Audi R8 headlight units? Just $5k ?!
http://www.caranddriver.com/features/09q3/2010_audi_r8_led_headlights-tech_dept


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## valerun (Nov 12, 2010)

dtbaker said:


> interesting! can't wait to see how it turns out. Perhaps just buy a pair of the Audi R8 headlight units? Just $5k ?!
> http://www.caranddriver.com/features/09q3/2010_audi_r8_led_headlights-tech_dept


ha! ;-) I saw them - crazy stuff. talk about 95%+ margin...


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## dtbaker (Jan 5, 2008)

..Audi may be a little crazy in pricing, explains the 50% drop in value over the first 2 years. 

but I am VERY interested in seeing/hearing how your headlights turn out as I would really like to consider upgrade to lower power consumption, especially if performance is better. I look forward to seeing how/if you can modify setup to work well, keep internal temp down, etc.


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## VoltsCar (Oct 26, 2010)

valerun said:


> thanks!
> 
> on LED vs. Xenon - I agree that Xenon might be easier to find/install due to availability of the after-market kits. However, LEDs are higher lumen output and do not have problems with frequent cycling. Anyway, I've ordered 20 10W LEDs for testing & some lighting projects. These bad boys are equivalent to 40W regular lamp each. And at $10 apiece, might just be the ticket.
> 
> I am planning to machine the aluminum heatsink for 3-4 of them in each headlight - with the other end in the shape of the lamp socket for fit. will report on how that goes.


Don't forget that the pattern is the most important thing in a headlight. Far more important than output alone. The HID's have been able to mimic patterns of traditional bulbs so that they work in standard lenses. This is important, as LED's tend to project, and HID's radiate. 

This guy is known as a guru in the industry: http://www.danielsternlighting.com/


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## valerun (Nov 12, 2010)

VoltsCar said:


> Don't forget that the pattern is the most important thing in a headlight. Far more important than output alone. The HID's have been able to mimic patterns of traditional bulbs so that they work in standard lenses. This is important, as LED's tend to project, and HID's radiate.
> 
> This guy is known as a guru in the industry: http://www.danielsternlighting.com/


thanks Volts - read through this guys' site - good stuff. Will see what I end up making - will definitely report here. Getting LEDs this week I think...


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## valerun (Nov 12, 2010)

small update - am starting some restoration work on the Fiat now. Got invited to a DIY show in a couple of months so need to prep ;-)

also, am rigging my DIY charger to serve double-duty as a 50A DC-DC converter.

PS. probably will be starting my BMW 330 conversion next months. started shopping for components now. Heavier vehicle so probably bigger pack. not sure if Kostov 11" will suffice...

PPS. thinking of getting and modding P&S openRevolt controller for >1,000A duty on ~300V pack...


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## valerun (Nov 12, 2010)

ok TAKING OFF THE MOTOR AMPS LIMIT today - Soliton1 full power on Kostov 11". Will see who wins LOL ;-) I think my tranny might be the ultimate loser though... ;-)

Also built my own 50A DC-DC from vicor bricks - awesome pieces. that's the shiny box on the right side of the trunk photo...

V


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## dtbaker (Jan 5, 2008)

wow, cant wait to hear how long your clutch/rear diff last.  you going to put some 'burnout' clips on youtube?


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## valerun (Nov 12, 2010)

so far so good. nothing broke yet. acceleration is awesome. spinning wheels in the second gear. pretty cool stuff.

BTW our build will be exhibited on upcoming Maker Faire in SF Bay Area and was also featured on the site of the upcoming movie "Revenge of The Electric Car" - http://www.revengeoftheelectriccar.com/CustomContentRetrieve.aspx?ID=3856234

Woo-hoo!!!

Valery


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## dtbaker (Jan 5, 2008)

I started going back thru the thread, but didn't find what you are using for a transmission/adaptor. Did you replace with a beefier tranny, or stick w/the original? clutched, or clutchless? who did your adaptor?

...I am debating whether I should even try putting 200# max torque thru a '62 Sunbeam Alpine tranny, or just move to a T5.


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## valerun (Nov 12, 2010)

dtbaker said:


> I started going back thru the thread, but didn't find what you are using for a transmission/adaptor. Did you replace with a beefier tranny, or stick w/the original? clutched, or clutchless? who did your adaptor?
> 
> ...I am debating whether I should even try putting 200# max torque thru a '62 Sunbeam Alpine tranny, or just move to a T5.


for now, original tranny. I figured - let it break, then I replace it LOL ;-)

clutched. We designed and machined our own adapter. Right now, I am actually driving with the 'prototype' adapter made from aluminum. The 1144 stressproof one is ready and standing by for when something breaks and I have to take it apart ;-)

V


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

Hi Valerun

Is your gearbox the same as the one in the Fiat 131/132?

In which case it is already a good strong transmission, 
as a general (crude) rule you get problems with gearboxes when you are trebling the torque,

The old mini box was designed for 30Hp - at above 90Hp it became a little unreliable!

The 132 gearbox had lovely big gears and bearings - which is probably why it did not shift as easily as the Ford gearboxes! - but it was much tougher!


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## dtbaker (Jan 5, 2008)

hhhhmmmm, I am wondering how my sunbeam alpine tranny might do with a Warp9 at 1000amps occasionally? I think the original motors only put out a little over 100 ft-# torque.

I have to either send the bell housing off, or replace the whole tranny+driveshaft with probably a T5 from a Mustang or similar.... change the clutch, etc,etc.


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## valerun (Nov 12, 2010)

dtbaker said:


> hhhhmmmm, I am wondering how my sunbeam alpine tranny might do with a Warp9 at 1000amps occasionally? I think the original motors only put out a little over 100 ft-# torque.
> 
> I have to either send the bell housing off, or replace the whole tranny+driveshaft with probably a T5 from a Mustang or similar.... change the clutch, etc,etc.


I'd say do it and then if/when it breaks, replace ;-) I got my Kostov 11" up to 800amps without breaking. That's about 230 ft*lbs. Just don't slam the gas pedal (or set the slew rate to something less aggressive - Soliton1 guys recommend less than 1000A/s - I find that too conservative so have 2000A/s in mine).


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## dtbaker (Jan 5, 2008)

valerun said:


> I'd say do it and then if/when it breaks, replace ;-)


trouble is... I am talking about a 1962 transmission with unknown number of miles since speedo seems to have been disconnected or changed long ago. First gear is not syncro, parts are difficult to come by...

Worse, the Vendor I would have chosen to do it, CanEV.com is not interested in designing for a new tranny without a minimum quantity of 6 to be cost effective. Unlikely to dig up 6 Alpines to convert anytime soon! I would consider looking for a local shop, but we don't have much in the way of machine shops in Santa Fe as far as I know. I dunno if the cost of measuring, design, and prototyping one adaptor would be much less than switching out the whole mess with a newer drivetrain + clutch master/slave, driveshaft from a 2.8L Mustang, for which there are adaptors off the shelf.

sigh...


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## valerun (Nov 12, 2010)

dtbaker said:


> I dunno if the cost of measuring, design, and prototyping one adaptor would be much less than switching out the whole mess with a newer drivetrain + clutch master/slave, driveshaft from a 2.8L Mustang, for which there are adaptors off the shelf.
> 
> sigh...


oh, I see. you may be right. let us know what you decide. I vote for more 300ft*lb 2000lb electric cars on the road! ;-))


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## valerun (Nov 12, 2010)

ok I cleared about 400 miles on my conversion and thought I would post my first experiences. Maybe they will help somebody who is deciding on components etc.

Overall, awesome experience on conversion itself. See http://www.rusbaevents.com/cgi-bin/Vevents/EMW/FiatConversion.pl for detailed write-up of the conversion process.

A few notes on learnings:
1. CALB 100AH Battery pack is great. Hasn't ever heated above +10 C over ambient I think. 
2. Soliton1 is everything they claim it to be power wise. However, incomplete detailed interface descriptions made for quite a long process to hook everything up correctly. I wish EVnetics invest more in that area of the manuals
3. I have mixed feelings about the Kostov 11" motor. I know, a couple of people on this forum did suggest that I should go with netgain instead but lower weight and very good deal terms made my decision for me at the time. Here are my concerns: (a) it is rated for 250V so getting to top RPM requires at least a 250V pack (my pack now is 192V so I need to boost capacity. not a huge problem as I could use extra range) (b) it apparently has quite a bit of internal resistance which makes the actual battery pack voltage requirements even higher if you want to drive any kind of current through the motor at high RPMs. 

To deal with that, I already have an order for 45 more cells in with CALB and plan to put 20-30 of them into the car - for the total 256V-288V nominal. Now, the problem with 288 nominal is the CV cutoff of 320V - which means that I now need to redesign my charger for 650V dc input (doubling 240V mains) or revive my PFC booster unit which is the whole new ballgame at 30A output (I abandoned it after I had it blow up repeatedly at 20A output). Of course, I could divide the pack in half and drive each half with a separate charger but that doesn't strike me as very efficient ;-) Perhaps someone has any creative ideas?

One thing is clear - for my next conversion (BMW 3 series) it's definitely a NetGain...

4. Bottom balancing of the pack IS A VERY GOOD THING! I fully subscribe to Jack Rickard's thinking around this - a lot worse things can happen when your cells go unbalanced when you are discharging them at 1000A that when your charging them at 30A... Anyway, had my first incident running out of juice a few days back (breakers tripped at night when I was charging and I did not check whether charging completed...). Anyway, after towing the car home, measured all cells - all within 0.1V. Soliton1 did it's job preventing cells going below 2.5V. So all within specs. If I had not bottom-balanced my pack, I'd had a few dead cells already. 

5. Aluminum coupler that I was so afraid of using at 1000A motor current limits, holding up fine so far. So maybe I don't need 1144 stressproof steel coupler after all...

6. Battery voltage monitoring on the dash is a must. (a) I would see the battery getting low sooner, (b) I would get better idea about battery and motor dynamic performance. Again, for some reason Soliton1 does not have that output. Instead, the last output slot is taken by ...power level... Battery voltage strikes me as MUCH MUCH more critical parameter than power level - but oh well. So I have to add one more gauge.

Any comments?

Valery


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## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

valerun said:


> ...
> 2. Soliton1 is everything they claim it to be power wise. However, incomplete detailed interface descriptions made for quite a long process to hook everything up correctly. I wish EVnetics invest more in that area of the manuals


We've been working on updating the manuals for the last couple of weeks so we might have already fixed your complaints here, but just in case we didn't what exactly did you mean by "interface descriptions"? Any other things needing more explanation?




valerun said:


> 6. Battery voltage monitoring on the dash is a must. (a) I would see the battery getting low sooner, (b) I would get better idea about battery and motor dynamic performance. Again, for some reason Soliton1 does not have that output. Instead, the last output slot is taken by ...power level... Battery voltage strikes me as MUCH MUCH more critical parameter than power level - but oh well. So I have to add one more gauge...


There are a few good reasons why we didn't put battery voltage in the list of "gauge driver" selections. We might reconsider our decision if you can make a persuasive argument, but until then here they are:

1) battery voltage is one of the parameters directly reported by logger and with reasonable accuracy (~2% worst case error; 1% typical).

2. the aux output drivers are strictly digital so to represent an analog value they switch the 12V supply on and off at 60 Hz with the output voltage proportional to duty cycle. This is not unlike how the actual motor controller works, except that the duty cycle for the gauge driver outputs is in rather coarse steps (50 total, or 2% per step).

3. battery voltage is, at best, a poor proxy for state of charge with the LFP chemistry. You really want to watch Ah, and that is not something that can be calculated with any useful accuracy inside the motor controller (it can't see charging current, nor drains from other loads such as the dc/dc converter, cabin heating system, etc.).

That said, it is reasonably easy for us (er, I mean Qer...  ) to add new gauge driver functions to our controllers, but I really feel this is one that should be left out on purpose because it just can't be done with real precision.


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## dtbaker (Jan 5, 2008)

for those of us not having Soliton1 or Jr (yet), what inputs/outputs are available? perhaps we ought to start a separate thread, something like 'getting the most out of your Soliton' or something like that.

I would like to know more about how it handles either/both pot-box or hall pedal, more about the internal main contactor and how that might affect how I line up the inertia switch interlock, whether it has the equiv of a KSI input, or a way to plug in an interlock from a charger.... etc.


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## Salty9 (Jul 13, 2009)

When it comes to high torque you can always break something. On my old Jeep with large tires it was the transmission or axles.


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## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

dtbaker said:


> for those of us not having Soliton1 or Jr (yet), what inputs/outputs are available?


This will be covered in more detail in the upcoming revision of the manual. It was a moving target for so long that I didn't bother to write about it.



dtbaker said:


> I would like to know more about how it handles either/both pot-box or hall pedal


Our controllers use a 0-5V input for throttle, so you need access to all 3-wires of the pot in a "pot box" to use such (ie - the Curtis PB-6 is not usable without modification, and even then we don't really recommend it since it's kind of crappy). Hall effect pedals automatically provide a 0-5V output (typically more like 1V to 4V) so there typically aren't any issues with using one. Note that many commercial Hall effect pedals output two different throttle voltages at the same time but we only support using one (and that voltage must increase as the throttle is "floored").



dtbaker said:


> more about the internal main contactor and how that might affect how I line up the inertia switch interlock, whether it has the equiv of a KSI input, or a way to plug in an interlock from a charger.... etc.


Charger interlock, inertia switch, etc., should all be normally closed (NC) switches that are wired in series with the "IGN" power input to the controller. This way, if any of these switches open they will kill power to the controller which is the simplest, most reliable way to implement these safety features.

There is no KSI input - operation of the main contactors and precharge will always be handled internally in our controllers (now and in the future). Attempting to rig up some way of interrupting the traction pack voltage to the controller every time you let off the throttle will definitely result in "low pack voltage" faults.

(not to derail the thread any more than necessary here)


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## valerun (Nov 12, 2010)

Tesseract said:


> We've been working on updating the manuals for the last couple of weeks so we might have already fixed your complaints here, but just in case we didn't what exactly did you mean by "interface descriptions"? Any other things needing more explanation?


Thanks Jeff for detailed response! I always find it very cool your response speed on forums... Anyway, some of the things that I'd like to be explained in the manual:
1. Ranges for the gauge outputs. It says 0-12V I believe but corresponding to what? I talked to Sebastien and George and they gave me the answers for current but I still don't know the scaling for power output, for example...
2. How to wire the motor temp switch
3. If sold with the motor (as in my case - Kostov 11"), would be great to have schematics for how to connect sensors to controller. Perhaps would makes sense to add major motor mfrs connection diagrams anyway - NetGain and Kostovs are probably 90% of the new motors being installed, so just 2 diagrams...





> There are a few good reasons why we didn't put battery voltage in the list of "gauge driver" selections. We might reconsider our decision if you can make a persuasive argument, but until then here they are:
> 
> 1) battery voltage is one of the parameters directly reported by logger and with reasonable accuracy (~2% worst case error; 1% typical).
> 
> ...


Understood. Here are my counterarguments:
1. Logger is not a gauge. I can't really use it while driving
2. 2% resolution is not a problem. I know that battery voltage, esp for LiFePo4, is not of any use for SOC determination IN THE MIDRANGE. However, it is pretty good for the last 5% before recommended 2.5V cutoff. So one could see pretty clearly when the pack gets to a 5% zone. This is the difference between quietly driving to the closest electric outlet and calling AAA to tow the car for 40 miles (my case). Also, the IR goes up dramatically in the last 5% of capacity so one could double-check the status of battery by voltage drop under load.
3. Even if none of the above was persuasive enough, I just can't see how power in kW is of any importance. Especially since you (1) know the battery current and (2) your pack voltage already... Seems unimportant and redundant at the same time...

My 2 cents.

Once again, pls don't take this critically - this is THE best controller out there so we are only trying to make it even better! ;-)

V


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## Qer (May 7, 2008)

valerun said:


> 1. Ranges for the gauge outputs. It says 0-12V I believe but corresponding to what? I talked to Sebastien and George and they gave me the answers for current but I still don't know the scaling for power output, for example...


It's really 0-100% so if you feed the controller with 12V it's 0-12V, but if your DC/DC outputs 13.5V it will be 0-13.5V. If you want a perfect voltage you'll need to either make sure the 12V to the controller is very stable (like using a DC/DC) or clamp the outputs.

Just thought I'd mention it... 

The outputs are:



Motor current: That's 0-100% for 0-1000A
Battery current: Same as motor current
Power: That one's a bit tricky. The power output is 0-100% of your entered maximum motor voltage times the maximum motor current UNLESS you've entered a value for maximum motor power AND that value is lower. So typically it's 0-100% of the maximum power the controller can dish out with your settings (but it completely ignore your battery settings in the calculation).
Controller temp: 0-100% is 0-100C
SoC: That follows the settings you enter in the web interface.
RPM: It's a ppt-output, should work with most normal RPM-meters.
Run indicator: It's used if you want a separate start button. Most sane people would never request this output, unfortunately the politicians in EU is not among these people. It's stupid, but that's politicians for you...



valerun said:


> 2. How to wire the motor temp switch


You need to connect the switch between GND and an input and then add a pull up resistor to the 5 Volt output of the controller.



valerun said:


> 3. If sold with the motor (as in my case - Kostov 11"), would be great to have schematics for how to connect sensors to controller. Perhaps would makes sense to add major motor mfrs connection diagrams anyway - NetGain and Kostovs are probably 90% of the new motors being installed, so just 2 diagrams...


I'll gladly pass that one to Tesseract.. 



valerun said:


> 1. Logger is not a gauge. I can't really use it while driving


You could with some kind of dash computer that talks Ethernet... 



valerun said:


> 2. 2% resolution is not a problem. I know that battery voltage, esp for LiFePo4, is not of any use for SOC determination IN THE MIDRANGE. However, it is pretty good for the last 5% before recommended 2.5V cutoff. So one could see pretty clearly when the pack gets to a 5% zone. This is the difference between quietly driving to the closest electric outlet and calling AAA to tow the car for 40 miles (my case). Also, the IR goes up dramatically in the last 5% of capacity so one could double-check the status of battery by voltage drop under load.


I'll consider your input, which is not a promise of any kind... 



valerun said:


> 3. Even if none of the above was persuasive enough, I just can't see how power in kW is of any importance. Especially since you (1) know the battery current and (2) your pack voltage already... Seems unimportant and redundant at the same time...


There's one very good reason why I did it. If I remember correctly I pretty much implemented it just because I could and it felt like a fun thing to do. And, of course, to my knowledge no other controller does that but since the controller already know how much power is pumped (since it has to calculate that for the power limit parameter) I just used the already existing value in the software to do another gauge output.

So it's just me bragging. I could do it, so I did. 



valerun said:


> Once again, pls don't take this critically - this is THE best controller out there so we are only trying to make it even better! ;-)


Nono, good input. I'm pondering if it'd be possible to do some kind of voltage output that'd make sense. But actually, you should be able to use the SoC-output for your needs. Just set the min and max to useful values, and either disable the hold but setting it to 1000A or experiment it for a good value you feel works for you.

If you set hold to 1000A you get a pure voltage meter, but by for example set it to 100-160 Volt you get better resolution than if the meter has to have the full scale from 0 Volt. And of course, it's pretty useless with a meter that doesn't even use most of the scale...

So perhaps we'll just rename the SoC to voltage. Hm. Pretty good idea actually, I might do so in the next version. Thanks for the input.


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## dtbaker (Jan 5, 2008)

Qer said:


> You could with some kind of dash computer that talks Ethernet...


http://gumstix.com/ sells complete linux computers on a unit about the size of a pack of gum.... onto which COULD be loaded a version of perl, a free server like Xitami, and a version of Mozilla...... complete 'local network' html/server on a deck of cards!


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## valerun (Nov 12, 2010)

dtbaker said:


> http://gumstix.com/ sells complete linux computers on a unit about the size of a pack of gum.... onto which COULD be loaded a version of perl, a free server like Xitami, and a version of Mozilla...... complete 'local network' html/server on a deck of cards!


My team is developing an EV instrumentation system based on Android tablet for visualization. The sending units are based on Arduino with sensors connected to the charger and other systems. The connection is made through bluetooth.

The system should be ready within the next 2-3 months.

V


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## valerun (Nov 12, 2010)

Hey giuys - been quiet on this thread ;-) 

a couple of updates - beautified the install, put some fun stickers on, and exhibited the car for the first time - on Maker Faire DIY Festival in SF Bay Area. Was a blast. (see below. More pics coming soon)

Finished design and build of a 10kW charger (up to 60A continuous).

Working on the bolt-on BMW E46 conversion kit.

Launched a conversion company with a few other interested guys in my area - focused on turn-key conversions and bolt-together kits. 

You can get details on all of the above at http://eMotorWerks.com. If you have a minute to check it out, Llet me know what you think!

And, of course, most importantly, here are some burnouts captured on video - courtesy of an 11" motor, Soliton1, and yours truly ;-)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wnUe7yYqh6o

Thanks,
Valery.


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## Guest (May 28, 2011)

Nice build. Looked at the video and boy do you need some stiff antisway bars on that puppy. How are you liking the Kostov Motor? How is that 60A charger working? 

Pete


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## valerun (Nov 12, 2010)

gottdi said:


> Nice build. Looked at the video and boy do you need some stiff antisway bars on that puppy. How are you liking the Kostov Motor? How is that 60A charger working?
> 
> Pete


Hi Pete, 

good point. It does have a front anti-sway bar but no rear. maybe I should upgrade front and install rear?

Kostov is fine BUT you have to be aware of what 250V voltage rating means... I am being forced to add 20 more cells to get good freeway acceleration out of it. Will also require swap of the DC-DC and mods to the charger.

Charger is working fine. Am building a 150A unit now (20-25kW max) for a customer. If there's further interest, will offer kits for that one, too.

V


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## Guest (May 29, 2011)

Interesting to hear you don't have good acceleration with 190 volts. What amperage are you pulling? 

For the DC DC why not use the Vicor MegaPac? It will work up to 300 volts in.


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## valerun (Nov 12, 2010)

gottdi said:


> Interesting to hear you don't have good acceleration with 190 volts. What amperage are you pulling?
> 
> For the DC DC why not use the Vicor MegaPac? It will work up to 300 volts in.


At ~70mph I can pull ~130A in 4th and ~170A in 5th. My guess is that the pack voltage (~180V with sag and all) is just ~70% of the 250V rating of the Kostov and that voltage is just not sufficient to rev up RPM higher...

From standstill, Soliton1 dutifully puts out ~900-1000A at full throttle - this, too, tapers off quite quickly with RPM...

Am I too far off?


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## valerun (Nov 12, 2010)

ok another update today - built a 'booster' pack of 20 more CALB cells. Will install in place of the rear bench in my Fiat (rear seat is unusable anyway). Plan to put a good-size trunk box in the remaining space.

V


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## valerun (Nov 12, 2010)

gottdi said:


> Nice build. Looked at the video and boy do you need some stiff antisway bars on that puppy. How are you liking the Kostov Motor? How is that 60A charger working?
> 
> Pete


ordered 1" stiff front and rear anti-sway bars. should help.

Do you know any good source for a roll bar for this car?

V


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## valerun (Nov 12, 2010)

Found the guys who can sell me Roll Bar - Autopower out of San Diego. $400+shipping. Will also use it to help secure the new 20-cell pack I just added to the car!

My calculated range now is ~100 miles freeway (80 cells * 320Wh/cell = 25,6kWhr in a light car). Can't wait to test it ;-)

One more thing - after running out of juice one day (stupid - forgot to plug in overnight and blanked out in the morning), I have built a 'jumper pack' of ~250 NiMh cells (~20 12-packs originally meant for the robotic vacuum ;-) - 300V nominal, 3.5Ah - enough juice to run 4-5 miles at low speed. Added a DC port to a charger so the jumping process is really quick - 15 min or so. About 30 lbs. Will be sitting at home most of the time unless I plan long journeys. 

Now the bad news: all that torque from launches in the 3rd (too lazy to shift + low top RPM due to 192V nominal with 250V motor) started burning up my new clutch... Anybody knows what to do? I do not want to go clutchless or direct drive.

Thx!
V


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## Guest (Jun 5, 2011)

Put in a performance racing clutch and use second gear more and lay off the pedal. Just because you have the power does not mean you need to use it all the time. 

Pete 

Might think about changing your final drive gear too.


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## valerun (Nov 12, 2010)

gottdi said:


> Put in a performance racing clutch and use second gear more and lay off the pedal. Just because you have the power does not mean you need to use it all the time.
> 
> Pete
> 
> Might think about changing your final drive gear too.


hehe Pete - you know how realistic that 'lay off the pedal' suggestion is, right? ;-))

didn't know that there's a performance clutch option for these puppies. Where do I get one? Int'l Auto (where I used to get all my Fiat parts) doesn't carry that.

Thanks!
Valery.


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## Guest (Jun 5, 2011)

> hehe Pete - you know how realistic that 'lay off the pedal' suggestion is, right? ;-))


I know but gotta say it. 

Not sure about the level 3 or 4 racing clutches for the Fiat.


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## valerun (Nov 12, 2010)

OMFG. That Kostov motor REALLY NEEDED THOSE 256V nominal!!! Off the line accel is the same (as in 'spin the wheels in second until ~20mph LOL ;-), but then 3rd takes all the way to 65mph and 4th gets you to 90 very very fast. Didn't even try to test what the 5th will do... 

Was sure fun to pass all the cars on the freeway with a blip of a throttle.

I am sure it could use another 10 cells - with motor voltage limit set at 250-300V that would allow for much higher motor amps at high RPMs. Hmmm will see.

The roll bar is coming in next week - will be used to brace the extra battery packs.

Awesome stuff. I actually want to measure my 0-60 now ;-)

V


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## valerun (Nov 12, 2010)

ok so finally my stock transmission decided it had enough of that 0 RPM electric torque! Was only a matter of time - the gears were made out of BRASS and rated for 160 ft*lbs or so. 

The good news was that it happened in the very end of my trip - just as I was launching from the last traffic light before my office (trying to smoke a BMW in the next lane, of course ;-)).

so it's going to the mechanic tonight - putting in a performance clutch, good used tranny from a Bravia 131 (steel gears, 400 ft*lbs rating as I heard), sway bars on both ends, break tune-up, and wheel rebalancing. Should be a new car after that! ;-)


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## valerun (Nov 12, 2010)

Took it to the shop - turned out the tranny is still alive and kicking. It's the rear diff that went ;-0 The driveaxle sort of freely rotates for a quarter turn then catches.

Anyway, my Fiat guy says it's easy to find a swap so while he is doing that, I have a race ceramic clutch and beefed up tranny on the way. Fun fact: the clutch shop paints the pressure plate on the race clutch assembly in red - I wonder what the point is since it is never seen from outside ;-)

Will check on things tomorrow. Hope they are done already ;-) Kind of bummed to have to drive my gas car. Never thought I would prefer a Fiat to my new 335xi ;-))


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## valerun (Nov 12, 2010)

new diff is in. the old one looked pretty bad - all the teeth stripped out!

swapping tranny and putting race ceramic clutch and performance sway bars next week.

V


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## valerun (Nov 12, 2010)

another month, another update:

pack up to 89 cells now. 285V nominal. good timing getting that 10kW PFC stage done!

roll bar installed

next: sway bars and ceramic clutch.


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## sergeklapwijk (Jul 20, 2011)

Whoops, sorry


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## valerun (Nov 12, 2010)

our conversion has been featured in the "Current Events", an official monthly national magazine of Electric Auto Association here in the US. BMW is next!


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## JRoque (Mar 9, 2010)

Very nice article, V! Congratulations to you and your team. 

JR


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## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

valerun said:


> our conversion has been featured in the "Current Events", an official monthly national magazine of Electric Auto Association here in the US. BMW is next!


Very interesting article, Val, especially the part where you say you are planning on making a 600V/1500A controller, and did I misunderstand, or did the author also say you were basing your controller on ours? Tsk.


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## valerun (Nov 12, 2010)

Tesseract said:


> Very interesting article, Val, especially the part where you say you are planning on making a 600V/1500A controller, and did I misunderstand, or did the author also say you were basing your controller on ours? Tsk.


Hi Jeffrey - yes, a 500-600V controller is something we will need for our dual-motor setups. It would also have to work relatively seamlessly with the EV instrumentation / control system that part of my team is building now.

So working on this is in plans but timing TBD and outsourcing it is one of the options. It is *not* based on Soliton design (apart from being a buck and having all the requisite design elements necessary in the power device like this - laminated bus, symmetric connections, large film caps, drive balancing circuits for load sharing, RCD turn-off snubbers, etc). As you know from this thread, we are re-purposing our charger board for control. That works quite well so far as it was originally designed to be a universal sensor / driver board with hardware current limiting. We are also trying some combos of hardware PWM control and Arduino monitoring / communication layer.

But as I am sure you very well know, there is quite a distance from a working R&D prototype to something we can install into our customers' vehicles. So for the foreseeable future, we expect to use Soliton1 as standard in our conversions, with Zilla 2KHV as a high-power option. (just ordered 3 more Soliton1's from George, in fact ;-)

Hope this answers your questions. Please PM / email to [email protected] for more details. 

Thanks,
Valery.


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## drgrieve (Apr 14, 2011)

Hi Valery.

I was wondering what your pack IR is. Could you tell me your voltage sag at a couple of different amp readings at the same SOC?

From your posts I see that you say you get 200kw peak from your pack (or is that after motor and controller losses?) which looks like a drop of 72kw (3.4*800*90). This would put your pack IR around .75 to .8 milliohms.

I'm looking at using the same motor with Soliton jnr controller. But haven't decided on cells yet. Want to size pack so that at max amp draw (500-600 amps) I get no motor voltage sag.

Thanks!


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## valerun (Nov 12, 2010)

drgrieve said:


> Hi Valery.
> 
> I was wondering what your pack IR is. Could you tell me your voltage sag at a couple of different amp readings at the same SOC?
> 
> ...


Hi, 

couple of things:
1. the 200kW number was mentioned for the smaller number of cells. With 90 cells, it is definitely higher
2. I would use 3.2V as your starting point for sag calculations. This is nominal voltage for these cells and you normally see 3.3V on them after a couple of hard accelerations even right after full charge.

I have not measured the sags with the latest battery config but based on the previous measurements, I am at ~0.6-0.9mOhm per cell when >40-50% SOC.

hope this helps.

V


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