# Is it REALLY that worth it? Or am I doing something wrong?



## PoddPerry (Nov 19, 2015)

Hey

So Like many of you guys I started looking for how I could convert my car into a EV, but something seems to be off...

So first, to put things in perspective, I could buy a used Renault Zoe for like 9/10k€, plus 80€/mo for the battery rent (I live in western EU). So hopefully if I decided to modifiy a base car, it would at least cost less than that, right? Let's check that.

First, there's the motor. I don't ask too much, just a top speed of ~80 mph, and reasonable torque (considering the car itself is pretty light i don't think that's impossible). Preferably AC. The cheapest I could find was an industrial 37kw motor for more than 4k€... Ouch!

Then of course, the battery. Same thing I don't ask too much, say 60 miles per charge minimum. The models I saw varied between 2k€ and 10k€...

And that's not counting the controller, and all the little things that cost in total like 2 or 3k minimum...


So my question is, how is it even possible to build something like this relatively cheaply? It just seems impossible for me as of right now. I'd just rather buy a Zoe and save all this hassle.

(BTW sorry if this is not the correct place for this thread, feel free to move it where it fits best)


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## jonescg (Nov 3, 2010)

Yep. The main reason to build your own EV is cause you just want to. You enjoy the challenge. Renault and Nissan make fantastic EVs which are very well refined and do everything well. It's pretty hard to do a better job in your garage.

However, sometimes a guy needs a project, and a DIY conversion is a cracker of a project to embark upon. Even if its more expensive.


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## Moltenmetal (Mar 20, 2014)

If you just want an EV, you can buy a commercial one- that wasn't an option a few short years ago, but it is now. 

The used ones are pretty cheap, for no good reason in my opinion. Just like Priuses here in Canada, the prices of used EVs are depressed by irrational fears about reliability that are not borne out in actual performance, and hence the used ones can be an excellent bargain. Here in Canada it's hard to find an off-lease Leaf or Volt for cheap, but in the US you can apparently find the 1st generation Leafs as used cars for very cheap. I have no idea what this is like in Europe.

(If your daily drive is at the very ragged edge of the range limit of a Leaf, then you'd be advised NOT to buy a gen 1 Leaf as they have demonstrated capacity loss versus time particularly in hot climates)

If all you want is an EV and you think it will save you money driving (and this is your primary reason for wanting one), then the only way you will really save money without sinking in a lot of effort and time, and having some risk of having a car which doesn't do what you want it to do at the end- plus a bunch of administrative hassles which vary from place to place in the world a great deal.

IF:

1) You have, or really want, a special and unique car, and
2) You want the experience of building it yourself, and all the learning and fun that goes along with that, and
3) You have, or are willing to build, the mechanical and electrical skills necessary to do the work, and
4) You have realistic goals for range, and
5) You have a realistic budget, and
6) You're willing to spend the time learning and overcoming the administrative hassles, and (arguably)
7) You can find a used Leaf or Volt pack that suits the needs of your build

Then converting an existing IC engine car might be for you.

The best ones to convert are old, cool, mechanically simple and in very good shape- not rusted to ratsh*t like mine was. If you want an econo-box, buy a Leaf- don't convert an IC engine econobox! (Then again- to each their own- EVMetro's Geo Metros are literally works of art and engineering and I don't think he'd trade one for TEN Leafs!)

I wouldn't trade my Spitfire conversion for ten Leafs or Volts (or two Teslas) either. OK, maybe I would- but then I'd sell all but one of them, buy a Spitfire in better shape or maybe a TR3 etc. and convert it!


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## arklan (Dec 10, 2012)

leafs are getting towards $50k in australia, for that money u could make something absolutely outrageous, even with brand new parts...

there are no second hand leafs/volts here


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## dougingraham (Jul 26, 2011)

PoddPerry said:


> So my question is, how is it even possible to build something like this relatively cheaply? It just seems impossible for me as of right now. I'd just rather buy a Zoe and save all this hassle.


The real question from your subject "Is it REALLY that worth it?"

I had huge question marks around the whole thing and it all got answered on the day I did my first drive. It was absolutely worth it! Can you get the EV grin from a factory built? Sure. But it is not nearly the same thing.

I spent about $19000 on my conversion. Adjusting for inflation when my Rx-7 was new it would have cost $33000 in 2015 dollars. You can't come close to my performance with any of the OEM cars selling for $31000 or less.

Was it worth it? I am seriously thinking of doing another RX-7 so I can do everything right the second time round. There are a lot of cars out there and the only really desirable OEM EV is one of the Tesla's.

This is a very rewarding hobby! When you complete your conversion you will understand.


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## poprock (Apr 29, 2010)

Is it worth it (financially) ? Definitely no. A DIY'er is not concerned about cost, or the opinion of self appointed critics . The feeling of elation that comes as you walk out of the RMS (DMV) with the number plates for your creation makes it all worthwhile. After 51 years paying tax and paying for the lifestyle of many dole bludgers, I am entitled to some reward. The workshop owner who did the final blue slip inspection said that he and his crew had only one question. WHY? My answer was "BECAUSE I CAN ". Be prepared for ridicule, discouragement, possible divorce proceedings and many hours in the garage listening to golden oldies. But the smile that comes after your first drive makes it worth it!


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## PoddPerry (Nov 19, 2015)

Thank you for your responses, I think I understand now.
Also now that I think about it this forum seems to be pretty old, so I think that say 10 years back, it would have been interesting from a financial point of view as well, but not so much nowadays.

My main idea was to take an old but still somewhat stylish car, like a Peugeot 205 or a VW Golf/Polo, to tune a little bit so it looks better from the outside while not making it look too redneckish, and to convert it of course. People are not surprised not to hear a single noise when a Tesla or a Leaf comes by, but not so much when this kinda car does (especially if it goes kinda quick), so I think it could be pretty fun. 
As a broke-ass college student, it's clear that the first reason I wanted an EV was the long term cost. In this case getting an oem car would be the best option apparently, but then again it would definitely be less "cool" than a modded original base car.... So I guess I'll still have to think about it for a moment (and it's not like I had the money, workshop, and experience for it yet anyway, it was more like a project for the next few years)


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## jonescg (Nov 3, 2010)

arklan said:


> leafs are getting towards $50k in australia, for that money u could make something absolutely outrageous, even with brand new parts...
> 
> there are no second hand leafs/volts here


Walk into Magic Nissan and haggle - you can get a 2012 Leaf for under $25k.

But - agreed, we are really behind on new EV sales. It's easier to buy a Tesla than it is to buy a Leaf!

And $50k would definitely build an amazing EV. I expect to spend that much on my Honda CRX project. After I win the lotto...


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## PoddPerry (Nov 19, 2015)

Thank you for your responses. I think I understand now.
Now that I think about it, this forum is kinda old, so it makes sens that say 10 years back it was financially worth it as well but not so much now since quality and mainstream EVs are being manufactured.

My original project was to take a old but still somewhat stylish car like a Peugeot 205 or a VW Golf/Polo, to tune a little bit so it looks better while not making it look too redneckish, and to convert it of course. People are not surprised not to hear a single noise when a Leaf or a Tesla comes by, but not so much I'd guess when this kinda car does (especially if it goes kinda quick) so I think could be pretty fun.

Not gonna lie, as a broke-ass college student the main reason I was interested by diy EVs was the long term cost. But then again a modded rx7 (for instance) would be much more fun than a Zoe. I don't really know yet for sure what I want :/
But it's not like I had the money, experience or even adapted workshop for it right now anyway. It was more like a project for the next few years.


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## dcb (Dec 5, 2009)

It is obviously a personal question, and like literally everything it will depend if the results meet or exceed your expectations.

But there is a big learning curve, and hidden expenses, and a lot of performance considerations, which a lot of folks don't know to expect, so for a lot of people it wasn't worth it.

But the growing surplus/salvage parts market, and the growing knowledge base, looks to make it totally worth it for a growing segment of the population.

I've yet to make a serious road vehicle (currently respoking a hub motor on to a 20" rim...), but just the learning process has been worth it to me so far. I'm out a few grand in experiments ("educational expenses") and was glad to find a used leaf so I could enjoy the EV benefits immediate gratification style, which gives me more time to plan out what I want vs whats is and what is becoming available, and have good expectations of the results.


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## Moltenmetal (Mar 20, 2014)

I wouldn't say this site is old- not at all.

The DIY EV history from my perspective goes about like this:

People started converting vehicles with the only technology available: lead-acid batteries. Some got good performance, most didn't- they got craptastic life out of the batteries, their cars were too heavy to perform well etc. But it was still a fun project, and not too expensive because there weren't really any "buy" alternatives for the parts- you had to Frankenstein everything.

A small market of EV-specific DIY parts started to be developed. Around the same time, Li-ion batteries large enough for EV uses started to emerge. Soon, it was possible to build an EV conversion with great performance, useful range without too much extra weight etc. Commercial EVs were still rare and expensive. But conversion parts were expensive too. You could still go the salvaged forklift route, but a decent pack was still going to set you back $6-8,000 plus charger and BMS if you wanted one. Serious coin. A decent conversion was going to set you back most of the cost of a decent used vehicle- still cheaper than a new one, if you valued your own time at $0/hr, but not cheap. Gas prices were on the rise (2008 timeframe) so it looked like it might not be a bad way to avoid paying too much for gas.

Now, there are plenty of commercial EVs to choose from. They're still very pricey in some jurisdictions, and payback against a gas vehicle (ignoring CO2 emissions entirely) is debatable except in some jurisdictions where fuel and/or vehicle taxes are high. But these EVs are now becoming a wealth of parts, particularly battery packs, which the wreckers don't really know what to do with. Now you can get a used pack for perhaps $2k that used to cost you $6-$8k. Motors and controllers and are still expensive, but not so expensive that they're prohibitive. Still worth it for a really cool unique car.


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## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

Doing your own conversion is good for a man's soul, but there is more to it than that. When you buy a manufactured EV, it is built the way somebody else wanted, not the way that you may want it. For the same money, you can do your own conversion on the car that you choose, and you can build it the way that you like to suit your own needs. Maybe you don't have all day to wait for a manufactured EV to charge with a 7KW or smaller charger, or maybe you don't want to be limited to 85 mph. When you build your own, you can build it to suit your needs.

This site has been around for long enough to have covered the Lead Age of batteries, and for people to migrate here after reading about salvaging forklift motors and other thrifty (and hoaky) ways of converting a car to electric, but now we have much better technology and resources available to build a nice professional EV. The universal EV components available now become assets that have value that is separate from the value of the car, something that is hard to say about a manufactured EV loaded with very proprietary components. These universal components that are available to us for conversions may still lose value over time, but most will still have plenty of value left long after the life of a manufactured EV. (Manufactured EV's become totaled after a decade when the battery pack replacement exceeds the value of the car.)


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## CKidder (Dec 12, 2009)

I'd like to add as well that we're now at a point where you can have the best of both worlds. You can take parts out of salvaged commercial EVs and put them into your conversion to build up what you want out of high quality parts. You can buy salvaged or bankruptcy auction drive trains for under $9000. They'll even be pretty high power (100kw+ quite often). The same goes for batteries, chargers, you name it. They're all becoming available as people buy EVs and then wrap them around trees. Not all of the parts go bad during a crash. Not all EV makers stay in business. Alternative sources of parts are popping up and this is allowing people to build cars with very nice OEM grade components for a fraction of what it cost even 4 years ago. Thus, it is becoming more financially feasible to build cars these days. Thus, one might say it is more worth it now even from a financial standpoint. But, certainly one cannot discount the EV grin. That's a big motivation too. Another aspect of that is building something unique. I was involved in converting a 1959 190SL Mercedes to full electric drive. It's been modified to have no top, no external door handles, behind the seats humps, etc. It's a real head turner where ever you drive it. If you park it next to a Tesla nobody would be looking at the Tesla. So, there's always the potential (when doing it yourself) to really build something unique that is truly "yours". You can't easily buy that but you can build it.


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## dcb (Dec 5, 2009)

evmetro said:


> salvaging forklift motors and other thrifty (and hoaky) ways of converting a car to electric


Meh, there is a lot to be gained in knowledge, and a lot of forklift-like motors are still dominating the acceleration game, as well as the limited budget game. You seem to have an unlimited budget, but a college kid probably doesn't, nor do a lot of folks. So I wouldn't call it hoaky, anymore than using convoluted relay logic instead of a microcontroller  If salvage bits are what you can afford, and it meets your expectations, then it was worth it.



evmetro said:


> The universal EV components available now


There is no such thing. Not even your rearview mirror is safe from technological advancement and obsolescence. What works for a metro might not work in a cadillac.


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## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

dcb said:


> Meh, there is a lot to be gained in knowledge, and a lot of forklift-like motors are still dominating the acceleration game, as well as the limited budget game.


I think you may have missed my point. I am totally with you about using what you can to save a buck, but my point was that we have come a long way from the time when scrounging odd bits was the only way available. People see hoaky lead sleds on youtube and other places, and they wind up here looking to build an EV for a couple grand. That's all fine, but it should be noted that there are better options available now, and that we can have much more advanced EVs now with what is available. 

I was not really looking to bash hoaky lead sleds, but the OP had referred to this forum as "old", and this forum has been around long enough to contain plenty of those conversions from back in the Lead Age when converting a car on the cheap with scraps and used batteries was the craze. If I understood the OP right, I agree with him, and want to point out that DIY conversions and this forum have not stayed behind in that "old" era. Yea, budget will always be an issue, but when you compare a DIY conversion to the cost of a new manufactured EV, there is room to have a pretty nice modern conversion.


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## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

dcb said:


> There is no such thing. Not even your rearview mirror is safe from technological advancement and obsolescence. What works for a metro might not work in a cadillac.



I have a conversion that I bought as a wrecked, pre millennium hoaky lead sled, and when I brought it up to date, I was able to salvage plenty of valuable assets from it. I threw away lots of duct tape, expanding foam, deck screws, some old instrumentation, and lots else, but I am still running the motor, the 1200 amp Raptor controller, the charger, lots of cables, contactors, heater, oh shit bar, and more. It was brought up to date with an Orion, bluetooth, wifi, lithium, and a lot of love. A nice EV for around $10k, not including my labor. No it doesn't have CANbus communication between the controller, motor, charger, and controller, nor does it have my on-demand regen system, but I can assure you that those old components were really nice assets when I went to order parts for that build. Sure, some parts will become obsolete over time, but I can assure you from experience that the bulk of these universal components make more financial sense than proprietary ones from manufactured EVs.


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## ferd (Dec 1, 2015)

Notice how people are saying that as time goes by, more parts become available at better prices. So if you don't have the resources today it's still a good time to start learning all you can. Then when you do have the resources you'll probably have a more satisfying project.

Consider finding and joining an EV enthusiasts' club in your area. They usually have members who are already building EVs, and can answer a lot of questions. You can gain experience by helping them on their projects. They might help with your projects too.


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## dcb (Dec 5, 2009)

evmetro said:


> I threw away lots of duct tape, expanding foam, deck screws, some old instrumentation,


I've just accepted duct tape and spat on gorilla glue (and wire hangers!) and drywall screws as a part of life. I'd use sticks and mud if it worked


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