# Re: [EVDL] Chevy Volt 240 mpg



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Chevy Volt 240 mpg*

Not if the EPA test is only 240 miles long. They can use 3 1/3 gallons of gas and make it.

-Chris




________________________________
From: Roger Heuckeroth <[email protected]>
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, August 11, 2009 4:14:16 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Chevy Volt 240 mpg

How the hell do they arrive at that number. I heard 40 miles all 
electric and 60 MPG thereafter. Sounds like some real creative math.



> David Dymaxion wrote:
> 
> > I heard on the radio this morning the Chevy Volt is to be EPA rated
> > at 240 mpg. This gives full electrics a big advantage over hybrids,
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Chevy Volt 240 mpg*

I don't know if this was the exact reasoning, but the story also mentioned something like 3/4 of Americans drive less than 40 miles a day. So as a corporate fleet average, suppose 7/8 of the total miles are done electrically, and the rare extended distance trip gets 30 mpg for the other 1/8 of the miles. Then the fleet average mpg would be 240 mpg. I don't know if they considered power plant energy use.

The good news, though, is this is a powerful incentive to build electric cars!

If I had one, I could easily foresee my personal overall fuel economy average being 200+ mpg as < 5% of my commuter car's trips are over 25 miles.




________________________________
From: Roger Heuckeroth <[email protected]>
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, August 11, 2009 3:14:16 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Chevy Volt 240 mpg

How the hell do they arrive at that number. I heard 40 miles all 
electric and 60 MPG thereafter. Sounds like some real creative math.



-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/private/ev/attachments/20090811/5f6f5ae9/attachment.html 
_______________________________________________
General EVDL support: http://evdl.org/help/
Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
Archives: http://evdl.org/archive/
Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Chevy Volt 240 mpg*

Well, if 3/4 of the time you drive about 40 miles (and hence use NO gas at
all), and then you drive 100 miles, the 1st 40 of which use no gas, then you
travel 220 miles on 1 gallon of gas if you get 60 MPG when you go beyond 40
miles.

-- Larry



> Roger Heuckeroth <[email protected]>wrote:
> 
> > How the hell do they arrive at that number. I heard 40 miles all
> > electric and 60 MPG thereafter. Sounds like some real creative math.
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Chevy Volt 240 mpg*

--------------------------------------------------
From: "David Dymaxion" <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, August 11, 2009 2:00 PM
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Subject: [EVDL] Chevy Volt 240 mpg

> I heard on the radio this morning the Chevy Volt is to be EPA rated at 240 
> mpg. This gives full electrics a big advantage over hybrids, as 240 mpg is 
> alot of help towards meeting the cafe standards.

Very weird, but have the EPA numbers ever been real? I think there's going 
to be a big problem if that stands, no one will believe the number. I also 
remember hearing that it was based on a preliminary test setup, so the 
number could change dramatically before it hits the market.


From: "Dave Hymers" <[email protected]>

> I wonder if MPG as a classification will still hang around long after the
> ICE is gone ?
> Like "Horse Power".

I'm pretty sure we'll see MPG stick around for 15 years or so, then some 
replacement, then later a new MPG as humans find a replacement energy 
medium.
Joe 

_______________________________________________
General EVDL support: http://evdl.org/help/
Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
Archives: http://evdl.org/archive/
Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Chevy Volt 240 mpg*

It's so weird that they insist on using these numbers, even though
they mean nothing. First off, what is the "average scenario" they used
to deduce 240 mpg? If I drive the car twenty miles a day and plug in
every night I could get 20,000 mpg. Or higher. Or if I never plug in
and just keep filling up the tank, will my mileage be better than many
straight ICE cars available today?

A lot of hype and marketing. How do you combine the electricity drawn
from the wall with the gasoline burned to calculate MPG? Does a car
charged from a hydro source get better mileage than a car charged from
a coal or gas plant? In Corrupticut we have some of the most expensive
electricity in the United States. Does that mean they have to put a
different mileage sticker in the window versus Oregon?

They need to draw a line in the sand and establish a common technique
for rating fuel usage/efficiency or the numbers mean nothing. I vote
for some kind of efficiency rating like a clothes dryer or air
conditioner combined with a carbon footprint indicator.

Deep breath, end of rant. Felling a little better.

Dave Cover



> Joseph Ashwood<[email protected]> wrote:
> > --------------------------------------------------
> > From: "David Dymaxion" <[email protected]>
> > Sent: Tuesday, August 11, 2009 2:00 PM
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Chevy Volt 240 mpg*

By their reckoning, the Tesla gets infinite MPG. What sort of moron
would apply MPG to an electric car? The govt madhouse is being run by
the inmates.



> dave cover<[email protected]> wrote:
> > It's so weird that they insist on using these numbers, even though
> > they mean nothing. First off, what is the "average scenario" they used
> > to deduce 240 mpg? If I drive the car twenty miles a day and plug in
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Chevy Volt 240 mpg*

The introduction of plug-in Hybrids and pure electric vehicles does greatly
complicate the CAFE numbers. With a regular Hybrid, it's easy, but how do
you give mpg numbers to a pure electric? What about a plug-in Hybrid, or the
range extended EV, like the Volt?

I read an article in the Dentist's office this past week. I believe it was
in an issue of Car And Driver magazine. It talked about some of the proposed
standards, some of which made sense to me. Perhaps someone here can put
their hands on the issue. I'm not sure how recent it was. It would be
interesting to see if any of the proposed methods produce the 230 (not 240)
mpg that was announced by Chevy.

Also note the 230 mpg is the city driving number only. The highway number is
much lower. I believe Chevy has only said the COMBINED city and highway
number will be in the triple digits, which means the combined will be at
least 100 mpg. The highway only number could be well under 100.

For me, the important number is cost per mile. I'm only a bit over a month
into my ownership of my EV, but I'm tracking two numbers. First, what is the
cost of electricity alone per mile to operate the vehicle? So far, I'm
averaging just under 6.5 cents per mile in central New York State where
electricity is running me just over 12 cents per kWh. I'm sure many do even
better than that. Still, it's a significant savings over a gasoline powered
vehicle. The second number is the cost per mile for ALL expenses, including
purchase, repairs, maintenance, registration, insurance, batteries, fuel,
etc. This number only becomes meaningful over the long haul. I'm confident
it will be much lower than a comparable ICE vehicle for an equivalent period
of time.

At least the announcement as created interest and debate that will hopefully
help the advancement of EVs.

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf
Of storm connors
Sent: Tuesday, August 11, 2009 9:33 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Chevy Volt 240 mpg

By their reckoning, the Tesla gets infinite MPG. What sort of moron would
apply MPG to an electric car? The govt madhouse is being run by the inmates.



> dave cover<[email protected]> wrote:
> > It's so weird that they insist on using these numbers, even though =
> 
> > they mean nothing. First off, what is the "average scenario" they used =
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Chevy Volt 240 mpg*

It is probably on the government standard drive cycle.
When the electric range exceeds the duration of the test, then this
measurement will become meaning less. Right now they need to give people
something to relate to.

What worries me more is that they may abuse this number to continue
making guzzlers. Currently car manufactures have to meet an average CAFE
MPG standard and they have done it by producing a line of underpowered
cars to offset their trucks. I hope I am wrong and someone changed that
requirement so they can't get away with this.

We are going to have to be the originators of the EV milage numbers, and
I think we have already set the defacto standard of

wh/mile (or wh/km)

Horse Power is directly convertable to Kw and indeed, most european
motors are rated in KW not HP.

_______________________________________________
General EVDL support: http://evdl.org/help/
Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
Archives: http://evdl.org/archive/
Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Chevy Volt 240 mpg*

> I'm pretty sure we'll see MPG stick around for 15 years or so, then
> some replacement, then later a new MPG as humans find a replacement
> energy medium.
> Joe

Hey, there is an idea.

wh/mile is a measure of the vehicle's efficiency reguardless of the
power source.

Once we have this number we can say either you carry X usable kwh/gal of
gas or in 25kwh in battery and get Y1 or Y2 range,

So the new sticker (Gas is 36.6 KWh/gal avail) Would combine the energy
style sticker with the MPG sticker. 
usable kwh/gal is what can motor do. This would indicate that a V6 or a
V6 doesn't matter so much to the mileage of the car, that pushing it
down the road matters more.

Hybrid Model 1 (300 wh/mile, 5kwh pack) (like an insight)

GAS ELECTRIC ONLY 
HYBRID
Usable Kwh/gal = 7.32 n/a
gals = 10 n/a 
Usable Kw = 4
miles = 244 (24.4MPG) n/a 
miles = 13

Combined Range 253 miles
cost/mile for 30 mile range at $3/gal and .23/kwh = $2.58

V
|----guzzler----------avg----------above
avg----------green-------|


Hybrid Model 2 (300 wh/mile, 15kwh pack) (like a prius+ or volt)

GAS ELECTRIC
ONLY HYBRID
Usable Kwh/gal = 7.32 
gals = 10 Usable Kwh = 12
miles = 244 miles = 40

Combined Range 284 miles
cost/mile for 30 mile range at $3/gal and .23/kwh = $1.25

V
|----guzzler----------avg----------above
avg----------green-------|

EV Model 1 (250 wh/mile, 25kwh pack) (like leaf)

GAS ELECTRIC 
ONLY HYBRID
Usable Kwh/gal = n/a 
gals = 0 Usable Kwh = 20 
n/a
miles = 0 miles = 80 
n/a

Combined Range 284 miles
cost/mile for 30 mile range at $3/gal and .23/kwh = $0.60

V
|----guzzler----------avg----------above
avg----------green-------|







_______________________________________________
General EVDL support: http://evdl.org/help/
Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
Archives: http://evdl.org/archive/
Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Chevy Volt 240 mpg*



> Roger Heuckeroth wrote:
> > How the hell do they arrive at that number. I heard 40 miles all
> > electric and 60 MPG thereafter. Sounds like some real creative math.
> 
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Chevy Volt 240 mpg*

You might also want to read through the automotive X prize site. I don't recall the exact document but in the rules they describe how they come up with equivalent's for the many different fuels that might be used to compete.

http://www.progressiveautoxprize.org/

Lawrence

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Rick Beebe
Sent: Wednesday, August 12, 2009 10:26 AM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Chevy Volt 240 mpg



> Roger Heuckeroth wrote:
> > How the hell do they arrive at that number. I heard 40 miles all
> > electric and 60 MPG thereafter. Sounds like some real creative math.
> 
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Chevy Volt 240 mpg*



> On 11 Aug 2009 at 21:10, dave cover wrote:
> 
> > It's so weird that they insist on using these numbers, even though
> > they mean nothing.
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Chevy Volt 240 mpg*

Knowledge is power.
Obfuscation is the tool.
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/private/ev/attachments/20090812/cfce6260/attachment.html 
_______________________________________________
General EVDL support: http://evdl.org/help/
Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
Archives: http://evdl.org/archive/
Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Chevy Volt 240 mpg*



> Rick wrote:
> 
> >It's well defined math, detailed at
> >http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miles_per_gallon_gasoline_equivalent
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Chevy Volt 240 mpg*



> [email protected] wrote: =
> 
> 
> > Unless I'm misunderstanding something, that doesn't appear to =
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Chevy Volt 240 mpg*

Actually, I undestand the the VOLT only uses 55% of its energy: from %30 to
85%, so it gets about 220 wh/mile: 0.55*16 =3D 8.8 KWH, 8.8/40 =3D 0.22 wh.

-- Larry

On Wed, Aug 12, 2009 at 11:52 AM, [email protected] <[email protected]>wr=
ote:



> > Rick wrote:
> >
> > >It's well defined math, detailed at
> > >http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miles_per_gallon_gasoline_equivalent
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Chevy Volt 240 mpg*

The most detailed explanation I've seen yet is on the gm-volt.com site. This
site is independent from GM and was started by, and is run by, Dr. Lyle
Dennis who became interested in the Volt when it was introduced as a concept
car.

While the explanation is fairly detailed it does not give an exact formula.
It states, "In the calculation of the label, for that 230 you take into
account the EV distance, the fuel economy after you depleted the charge, and
the EPA used a traffic survey that was done in 2001 to create a composite."

Also, "So in summary, Nitz explains that the average Volt driver charging
his car nightly can expect to burn one gallon of gas for every 230 miles
traveled over time based on the behavior of a particular random population
that was studied in 2001."

And, "The EPA has not confirmed this number yet because they haven't tested
the car, but they agreed to the testing method and GM is confident these are
the numbers that will eventually become official."

Full detail can be found at
http://gm-volt.com/2009/08/12/how-the-volts-230-mpg-designation-was-calculat
ed/ 

You may be interested in subscribing to this site. They frequently have
articles on other electric vehicles besides the Volt.

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf
Of [email protected]
Sent: Wednesday, August 12, 2009 2:52 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Chevy Volt 240 mpg



> Rick wrote:
> 
> >It's well defined math, detailed at
> >http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miles_per_gallon_gasoline_equivalent
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Chevy Volt 240 mpg*

What's crazy about this economy rating is it's based only on how much gas
has been burned, not how much energy has been used. If you factor in the
electric MPGE then you get much worse than the Tesla, which is all electric.

Remember, the public believes what it hears, regardless of if it's true or
not. Right now with GM's claim on the electric/gas Volt it's appearing to
the public that it's much more efficient than an all-electric vehicle, which
is not true. If we were to only report gas MPG for a vehicle, any
all-electric vehicle would be off the charts because no gasoline is
harmed/burned in the driving that that vehicle (infinite MPG). Right now the
public is hearing (wrongly) that the Volt is more efficient than the Telsa.
Somehow we need to get the word out thtat all vehicles need to be measured
on an even playing field, by energy used, not just gas.

BR,
Ed
175+ MPGE Sparrow (all electric, short range)
75+ MPGE Ranger EV (all electric)
53 MPG Plugin Prius (mostly freeway commuting, gas tank refueling average)



> Greg Tyler <[email protected]>wrote:
> 
> > The most detailed explanation I've seen yet is on the gm-volt.com site.
> > This
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Chevy Volt 240 mpg*



> Ed Thorpe wrote:
> > What's crazy about this economy rating is it's based only on how much gas
> > has been burned, not how much energy has been used. If you factor in the
> > electric MPGE then you get much worse than the Tesla, which is all electric.
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Chevy Volt 240 mpg*

Is anybody actually surprised that GM has opted to play this ridiculous game
?

I don't think it was the best idea for Nissan to tout 367mpg for the Leaf,
it may raise awareness of the differences between the two, but that's the
point they are utterly different, aimed at completely different markets.

If you look at some of the comments on the autobloggreen article they truly
are cringe worthy. If Nissan wants to go head to head with GM they will just
add fuel (pardon the pun) to the flames of people who love GM and will agree
with everything they say. Its David and Goliath.

If Nissan wants to poke fun at GM they should make a better series hybrid.
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/private/ev/attachments/20090813/e6f8745b/attachment.html 
_______________________________________________
General EVDL support: http://evdl.org/help/
Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
Archives: http://evdl.org/archive/
Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev


----------

