# Newbie Planning A 60-something VW Beetle Conversion



## slooker (Aug 29, 2015)

Hey guys! 

I've been reading everything I can find about VW Bug conversions and I was thinking about working on one with my kid. We're planning on a 67 or earlier 60's bug.

I'm not a great mechanic, but I'm okay. I change my own brakes, oil, and am a pretty crappy welder, but I've done it. 

I have next to zero skill/experience with fabrication.

This car is ultimately for my kid when he gets old enough, so I don't need much more than 45mph, and I'd like to get 30 miles or so range on it.

I've not really considered any parts for the most part other than taking a look at this kit from Wilderness EV: http://e-volks.com/about2.html?

Assuming I can find a VW Beetle for < $1k, which there are plenty around my town, is $5k a reasonable budget for this with lead/acid batteries, and will that kit meet my goal of 45mph max speed and 30 mile range?

Also, I think I read somewhere that beetles are air cooled. How does the AC work on an EV, and since I live in Vegas, where it hits 115 degrees Fahrenheit often enough, is this something I should worry about?

Thanks!


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## dragonsgate (May 19, 2012)

slooker said:


> Hey guys!
> 
> I've been reading everything I can find about VW Bug conversions and I was thinking about working on one with my kid. We're planning on a 67 or earlier 60's bug.
> 
> ...


I wouldn't go any smaller than an 8'' motor. The six inch motor is going to be way to wimpy especially if you are thinking about air-conditioning. Seeing as how humidity is so low in Vegas you could give some thought to a retro swamp cooler that runs on its own 12V motor. You might think all you need is 45mph max but I will lay even money that you will get tired of it real soon. Most of my daily driving is 40mph but the extra power comes in handy for hills and the occasional times I want to punch it. OK frequent times I like to punch it. If you are going only 72 volt a lith pack could be in your budget. Go the biggest and baddest you can right off because anything less is going to be money wasted even if it is less money.


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## piotrsko (Dec 9, 2007)

There are a couple of retro a.c. kits for bugs especially if it down to the shell. Can you really get a swing axle for a grand any more?


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## slooker (Aug 29, 2015)

piotrsko said:


> There are a couple of retro a.c. kits for bugs especially if it down to the shell. Can you really get a swing axle for a grand any more?


What's a swing axle?


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## slooker (Aug 29, 2015)

dragonsgate said:


> I wouldn't go any smaller than an 8'' motor. The six inch motor is going to be way to wimpy especially if you are thinking about air-conditioning. Seeing as how humidity is so low in Vegas you could give some thought to a retro swamp cooler that runs on its own 12V motor. You might think all you need is 45mph max but I will lay even money that you will get tired of it real soon. Most of my daily driving is 40mph but the extra power comes in handy for hills and the occasional times I want to punch it. OK frequent times I like to punch it. If you are going only 72 volt a lith pack could be in your budget. Go the biggest and baddest you can right off because anything less is going to be money wasted even if it is less money.


I can probably stretch my budget to 6k, but that's as far as I can go. If I went to a bigger motor (an 8" or 9"), what kind of motor/controller should I be looking for and what sort of price. Is this doable in under $6k? 

By default does an electric VW beetle not have air conditioning unless you do something special?

I looked at lithium but everything I've read said that'd be most of my budget if I did it.

I guess ideally, before I start, I want to know if $6k (or $5k plus the actual car) is realistic at all?


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## samwichse (Jan 28, 2012)

slooker said:


> What's a swing axle?


A pre-68 bug. It rather, one without a fully IRS.


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## slooker (Aug 29, 2015)

samwichse said:


> A pre-68 bug. It rather, one without a fully IRS.


Gotcha. I was told by a big beetle aficionado that I should be looking for a 67 or older anyways, so that's my goal already. What's an IRS?

Nevermind, googling it got me more info than I expected.


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## dragonsgate (May 19, 2012)

slooker said:


> I can probably stretch my budget to 6k, but that's as far as I can go. If I went to a bigger motor (an 8" or 9"), what kind of motor/controller should I be looking for and what sort of price. Is this doable in under $6k?
> 
> By default does an electric VW beetle not have air conditioning unless you do something special?
> 
> ...


IMO for a decent conversion $6K will be tight even with lead. If you can do a lot of stuff on your own like making your own adapter plates and coupler you can save a couple of hundred or more. I steer clear of kits because they have a lot of stuff that you might not need but the extras make like a good deal. The thing is if you cut corners to save time or money you will most likely end up with a conversion you are not happy with. If that happens chances are you will get dismayed and want to get rid of it and you will have a hard time getting rid of it even at a loss.


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## slooker (Aug 29, 2015)

dragonsgate said:


> IMO for a decent conversion $6K will be tight even with lead. If you can do a lot of stuff on your own like making your own adapter plates and coupler you can save a couple of hundred or more. I steer clear of kits because they have a lot of stuff that you might not need but the extras make like a good deal. The thing is if you cut corners to save time or money you will most likely end up with a conversion you are not happy with. If that happens chances are you will get dismayed and want to get rid of it and you will have a hard time getting rid of it even at a loss.


Making my own adapter plate is unlikely as I'm definitely not a machinist. If I went with lead, what's kind of budget can I expect to make an inexpensive but decent EV?


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## dragonsgate (May 19, 2012)

slooker said:


> Making my own adapter plate is unlikely as I'm definitely not a machinist. If I went with lead, what's kind of budget can I expect to make an inexpensive but decent EV?


Five to six thousand dollars is a good start. It is near impossible to tell you how much your conversion will be. To get an idea make a list of all the parts you will need and think you will need. Research all those parts for availability and prices. Then add it up and add at least 25%. If you have to go lead I have had good luck with Trojans. Most here say lead batts are only good for two years but my last pack was still going good after five years. I burnt a post and molten lead messed up the battery next to it so I went a head and got all new batteries. The pack before that was four and a half years before I changed out for a new set. Good luck


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## piotrsko (Dec 9, 2007)

I also got 4 years out of a lead pack which were going strong when I yanked them because i got a smoking deal on a chevy volt pack out of a wrecking yard.....

You could get a whole leaf or volt or whatever wrecked/salvage and use all those parts, but there is the issue of their control systems which might be moot after a year or so.

Myself, I would try and get a 73 or later round window SUPER bug for the storage, irs,and sealed front dash. Could even get one with the 3 speed auto trans. the Audi 5 speed of the same vintage is a direct bolt in. The downside is: "It ain't a real bug" and it has coilovers in the front on a ball joint front end.


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## slooker (Aug 29, 2015)

piotrsko said:


> I also got 4 years out of a lead pack which were going strong when I yanked them because i got a smoking deal on a chevy volt pack out of a wrecking yard.....
> 
> You could get a whole leaf or volt or whatever wrecked/salvage and use all those parts, but there is the issue of their control systems which might be moot after a year or so.
> 
> Myself, I would try and get a 73 or later round window SUPER bug for the storage, irs,and sealed front dash. Could even get one with the 3 speed auto trans. the Audi 5 speed of the same vintage is a direct bolt in. The downside is: "It ain't a real bug" and it has coilovers in the front on a ball joint front end.


I thought manual was the way to go for transmission because you lose power if you go autoamtic? I seem to remember reading that somewhere..

For a wrecked/salvaged leaf, I imagine I can't do that for under $5k...? Why would the control system be moot after a year or so? Do they just not last very long if they've been wrecked?


I'm not sure what "It ain't a real bug" means? How is it not a real bug?


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## piotrsko (Dec 9, 2007)

Tranny: vw used a 2 or 3 spd manual tranny with a torque converter clutch set up. Bolts to their flywheel, doesn't need the tc which is where any power losses would occur. Shifts like a manual on the 2 speed, needs pressure to auto shift the 3 speed.

Hacking the control systems in a leaf should be common in a year or so, so the argument about not using leaf systems will be over soon. Apparently not so for the Volt or tesla.

"Real" bugs were considered to be king pin front end, flat window, spare tire mounted in the worthless trunk, cold air leaking dash. Jury was out on irs vs swing axle trans and 12 v negative ground electrical. Used by people observing super bugs, noticeably "Formula V" models. Real bugs also don't shake above 55 mph.

I dunno, I have seen a leaf as a top sheared off sandwich go for $2500 at an auction. Useless for anything but powertrain parts, and some of those could be iffy.


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## samwichse (Jan 28, 2012)

piotrsko said:


> T
> "Real" bugs were considered to be king pin front end, flat window, spare tire mounted in the worthless trunk, cold air leaking dash. Jury was out on irs vs swing axle trans and 12 v negative ground electrical. Used by people observing super bugs, noticeably "Formula V" models. Real bugs also don't shake above 55 mph.


King pin isn't the same as "real bug." Torsion bar is . 
There were plenty of ball-joint torsion bar "real" bugs. 1966 Beetles were the first year with ball joints instead of kingpins, but the torsion bar models kept being made in parallel with the super beetle (which was only 71-75 IIRC?) and beyond until 2003 in Mexico.


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## slooker (Aug 29, 2015)

So I have a few questions that are still circling around...

1. Is the compressor for the AC part of the engine, and when I pull the engine do I lose air conditioning? 
2. If I lose air conditioning upon pulling , how do I get it back? I live in Vegas, and 115 degrees in the summer makes it undrivable without AC.
3. I was told to go for a 67 or earlier bug by a VW aficionado, but I didn't get reasons why. What's the best option for a conversion? I was planning on lead but may be able to do lithium if I can save money on the rest.
4. Is this a good checklist that covers most everything I'll need for the conversion: http://www.evsource.com/checklist.php and if not, does anyone HAVE a good checklist of parts I'll need to get?

Thanks guys!


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## samwichse (Jan 28, 2012)

AC on a 67/earlier bug?

I think you may be a little confused... (yes, I'm aware of the rarer-than-hens-teeth dealer installs).


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## slooker (Aug 29, 2015)

samwichse said:


> AC on a 67/earlier bug?
> 
> I think you may be a little confused... (yes, I'm aware of the rarer-than-hens-teeth dealer installs).


Huh. I live in Las Vegas, so it honestly didn't occur to me that 67 or earlier bugs might not have AC... 

So I'd probably have to get something like this? 

http://www.mamotorworks.com/VW/prod...t-1958-1967-beetle-vintage-dash-unit-311503-4

That might put a stop to this project before it starts. :/ Do newer bugs (68-70 something) have AC? It's pretty much a requirement for where I live.


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## samwichse (Jan 28, 2012)

slooker said:


> Huh. I live in Las Vegas, so it honestly didn't occur to me that 67 or earlier bugs might not have AC...
> 
> So I'd probably have to get something like this?
> 
> ...


Yes, you'll definitely need to buy something like that. AFAICT, no standard beetle had AC as an option before the super beetle.

However, late model Mexican beetles have factory AC and also have the torsion bar suspension.

You would need to fabricate a mount for the compressor and you would need a traction motor short enough that its tailshaft to drive the compressor wouldn't stick out of the back of the car. Or a dedicated, self-contained AC compressor that can run from DC power.


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## slooker (Aug 29, 2015)

So if I want air conditioning built in, I'd have to go with the super beetle 73/74? And would that compressor get pulled out with the engine normally anyway?

Or would I have to add a compressor back in regardless of which beetle I pick?

I think that answers all my questions except this one:

4. Is this a good checklist that covers most everything I'll need for the conversion: http://www.evsource.com/checklist.php and if not, does anyone HAVE a good checklist of parts I'll need to get?


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## samwichse (Jan 28, 2012)

The compressor's going to be mounted directly to the engine, so you'll be pulling it when you pull the ICE... you'll need to build a custom mount no matter what. Super beetles with air are very rare.

You live in LA Vegas! It's bone dry. Maybe just skip the AC completely and go with a vintage style swamp cooler. Easy to install, period correct 

http://m.ebay.com/itm/252069567364


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## slooker (Aug 29, 2015)

samwichse said:


> The compressor's going to be mounted directly to the engine, so you'll be pulling it when you pull the ICE... you'll need to build a custom mount no matter what. Super beetles with air are very rare.
> 
> You live in LA Vegas! It's bone dry. Maybe just skip the AC completely and go with a vintage style swamp cooler. Easy to install, period correct
> 
> http://m.ebay.com/itm/252069567364



Vegas is bone dry, but that doesn't stop swamp coolers here from making things kind of damp and gross pretty often. My grandma had one in her house and the carpet had a slightly moldy smell from it. 

So most beetles, Super or otherwise don't seem to have AC, so I'd have to add something after market no matter how I spin it?


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## samwichse (Jan 28, 2012)

slooker said:


> So most beetles, Super or otherwise don't seem to have AC, so I'd have to add something after market no matter how I spin it?


Pretty much, yeah.


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## slooker (Aug 29, 2015)

Well crap. What are some other good options for EV conversions. AC is a requirement.


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## dragonsgate (May 19, 2012)

Slooker, I am getting the distinct impression you do not know much about cars. That could be a big drawback in converting one to electric. I am saying this in a friendly manor when I tell you that you should be putting as much interest into cooling the motor and controller as you are air-conditioning. I am aware of how hot it can get out there as I have lived in Bullhead city Az. The extra drag of adding and air conditioning unit to the motor is going to make it run hotter.


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## slooker (Aug 29, 2015)

dragonsgate said:


> Slooker, I am getting the distinct impression you do not know much about cars. That could be a big drawback in converting one to electric. I am saying this in a friendly manor when I tell you that you should be putting as much interest into cooling the motor and controller as you are air-conditioning. I am aware of how hot it can get out there as I have lived in Bullhead city Az. The extra drag of adding and air conditioning unit to the motor is going to make it run hotter.


No worries, I don't take offense. I've stated pretty clearly what I know... I know enough to change my own brakes, oil, etc. I've done a slight bit of welding but not enough to be any good at it. I'm a software engineer by trade, so anything I ever have a question about I ask... even if I'm pretty sure I know the answer. 

Better to be corrected by someone who's done it than to assume you know the right answer.  

Are you suggesting that adding an AC unit to the motor will make it too hot to run in an area like Vegas or Bullhead?

My son loves the VW Beetle which is why we were looking at that... Is there a better option for a hot climate? I'd prefer something that looks a little nicer than the geo metro.


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## dragonsgate (May 19, 2012)

slooker said:


> No worries, I don't take offense. I've stated pretty clearly what I know... I know enough to change my own brakes, oil, etc. I've done a slight bit of welding but not enough to be any good at it. I'm a software engineer by trade, so anything I ever have a question about I ask... even if I'm pretty sure I know the answer.
> 
> Better to be corrected by someone who's done it than to assume you know the right answer.
> 
> ...


 I am just saying that even though it gets real hot in Vegas Air-conditioning is not the top priority. I am sure you have seen signs on mountain grades that say turn off AC. That is because the AC is putting extra load on the engine making it work harder thus generating more heat. The same applies to an electric motor. After you get a car up and running you might give this a thought. 

http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forum...-air-conditioning-case-you-havent-161897.html


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