# new netgain controllers



## neanderthal (Jul 24, 2008)

So there is now more info on the new netgain controllers.

Any thoughts?

They don't state if they can limit pwm like the soliton and zilla can, to keep your motor from seeing full pack voltage. Or if they can limit battery current without limiting motor current, like soliton and zilla. Or if they can limit battery voltage for a limp mode and battery protection like soliton.

I imagine they can, otherwise it would be a pretty lame controller.

http://www.evsource.com/tls_WarP-Drive.php

BTW I'm not advertising for ev source. Just found the link.


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## DIYguy (Sep 18, 2008)

Interesting...so, the competition is heating up! lol This is always good for the the consumer...


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## Bowser330 (Jun 15, 2008)

very promising. I would also say they have some automatic street cred so I am sure it wont be for long till we have some reviews of their controllers...

The idea of two put together to modularly to create 2000A+ continuous* is pretty neat too...


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## Crash (Oct 20, 2009)

I'm interested, but the features of the Z2k are pretty impressive. If the netgain has the same features as the Zillas, I'd be more likely to buy a NetGain. 

Anyone know if NetGain will have something like Zilla's hairball?


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## AmpEater (Mar 10, 2008)

Did anyone else notice that the "field upgrade kit" is a firmware update? So the basic, plain jane version is capable of 1400A/360v but limited to 1000A/160v in software until you fork over thousands for some bits flipped.

How long until someone figures out how to hack it?


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## todayican (Jul 31, 2008)

I know this is a trivial matter, but I have to say they certainly chose the absolute right name for the controllers (Warp Drive)


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## Crash (Oct 20, 2009)

AmpEater said:


> Did anyone else notice that the "field upgrade kit" is a firmware update? So the basic, plain jane version is capable of 1400A/360v but limited to 1000A/160v in software until you fork over thousands for some bits flipped.
> 
> How long until someone figures out how to hack it?


Yeah. This bugs me as well. But on the other hand, hacking it would probably screw your warranty.


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## DIYguy (Sep 18, 2008)

I have no idea if there are software switches for features...but if there are, I would suggest that it is a very good choice by the manufacturer. It allows easy field upgrades. . . which is also good for the user. For some reason, a lot of folks find it unfair to pay for such things...but this is intellectual property that costs time and money to create. Would you really prefer to send the unit back and switch out hardware? Many industrial machines, like robots for example, use this methodology for options. Depending on the value of the purchase etc, etc, they may vary the cost to the end user. I use to write into my specifications that, for large orders, all define-able software options are no cost. Of course it only works when buying a lot of units. 

Cheers


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## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

AmpEater said:


> Did anyone else notice that the "field upgrade kit" is a firmware update? So the basic, plain jane version is capable of 1400A/360v but limited to 1000A/160v in software until you fork over thousands for some bits flipped...


Indeed, but there is a reason for the higher price for what would appear to be a simple flipping of bits: the failure rate is expected to be much higher at the elevated settings because you are then eating into the "operating margin".

In other words, you are paying in advance for repairing the controller should it blow up.


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## ngcontrols (Nov 4, 2009)

neanderthal said:


> They don't state if they can limit pwm like the soliton and zilla can, to keep your motor from seeing full pack voltage. Or if they can limit battery current without limiting motor current, like soliton and zilla. Or if they can limit battery voltage for a limp mode and battery protection like soliton.
> 
> I imagine they can, otherwise it would be a pretty lame controller.


Sorry, a little late chiming in here. Yes, the WarP-Drive has these features.

I've included an updated photo of the latest version. A batch is being produced (already all sold out), with more to follow in the next few weeks.

NetGain Controls will only be selling these through its dealer network. Several of these dealers are just now getting set up. We'll be publishing a list on our website (http://ngcontrols.com) as it is updated with the new dealers.


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## ngcontrols (Nov 4, 2009)

Tesseract said:


> Indeed, but there is a reason for the higher price for what would appear to be a simple flipping of bits: the failure rate is expected to be much higher at the elevated settings because you are then eating into the "operating margin".
> 
> In other words, you are paying in advance for repairing the controller should it blow up.


You're certainly right Tesseract!


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## ngcontrols (Nov 4, 2009)

Crash said:


> I'm interested, but the features of the Z2k are pretty impressive. If the netgain has the same features as the Zillas, I'd be more likely to buy a NetGain.
> 
> Anyone know if NetGain will have something like Zilla's hairball?


The really cool thing with what we're doing here at NetGain is interfacing with other organizations to create a useful suite of products. The CANbus interface of the WarP-Drive will be used to broadcast critical information to other devices, and to retrieve necessary information from devices on the network. A couple of examples are speed sensing for rev limiting and cruise control. Third parties can come along and create their own devices that can go through a certification with us, which means that the device will operate correctly with the controller.

We know what we don't have all the good ideas, and this will give us the opportunity to harness the ingenuity of other businesses and individuals to create really great EV stuff.

Just a few other examples of how the CANbus can be used.



Connect with a BMS to provide output limiting to protect the batteries (at least one company already working on a system that will be compatible with the WarP-Drive)
Accessory control device that can intelligently turn on motor blowers and the liquid cooling pump, as well as monitor each of these and provide feedback to the controller if any have failed.
User interface devices. The sky is the limit on how information is displayed to the user. Our Interface Module provides a wealth of information to the user. This is just one example of how the "public" information on the CANbus can be intelligently used.
Intelligent fuel gauges. With the addition of a current shunt to detect charging current (the WarP-Drive only detects discharging current), all the information is available to produce a top-notch, low-cost battery fuel gauge.
The Warp-Drive itself has only 9 connections to be made:



Liquid cooling input
Liquid cooling output
M-
B+/M+
B-
CANbus port 1 (physically tied with port 2, i.e. on the same "bus")
CANbus port 2 (physically tied with port 1, i.e. on the same "bus")
Throttle (A NetGain Controls Hall-effect unit, which comes in two flavors)
The Main connector pigtail that has the precharging wires, 12VDC input constant, 12VDC with key-on, 12V start input, and two wires for contactor control and/or accessory relay control.
The controller will not likely have any inputs added to it. This makes it simple to install. Any additional features will be introduced as external add-on modules to the system.


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## ngcontrols (Nov 4, 2009)

AmpEater said:


> Did anyone else notice that the "field upgrade kit" is a firmware update? So the basic, plain jane version is capable of 1400A/360v but limited to 1000A/160v in software until you fork over thousands for some bits flipped.
> 
> How long until someone figures out how to hack it?


I'm sure people will try! 

Probably not wise to attempt it though, as it wouldn't take much messing around to have it lock out of service and require shipping it back for "repair".


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## Jason Lattimer (Dec 27, 2008)

Two quick questions. I have read on your website that it is series/parallel switchable. How is this accomplished with only one set of motor inputs.

Also the coolant input. Does it require a pump and what kind of radiator is used, or is it supplied?

I look forward to trying this controller. I am going to be converting a 1986 Trans am and look forward to being able to burn rubber with it.


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## ngcontrols (Nov 4, 2009)

Jason Lattimer said:


> Two quick questions. I have read on your website that it is series/parallel switchable. How is this accomplished with only one set of motor inputs.


Right now, the controller only handles one motor. Future add-ons are planned that will allow for series/parallel switching of dual motor configurations. Can you point me in the direction of where you found that info on the website? It might need to be modified.




Jason Lattimer said:


> Also the coolant input. Does it require a pump and what kind of radiator is used, or is it supplied?


We've put together several complete kits for liquid cooling. You can see them here:

http://www.ngcontrols.com/cooling.html

In lightweight vehicles and moderate temperature locations, the option with no reservoir works great. For hotter climates and/or heavier vehicles, the other options exist. If that's not enough to keep it cool (usually is), then fan(s) can be added to the radiator to give even more cooling power.



Jason Lattimer said:


> I look forward to trying this controller. I am going to be converting a 1986 Trans am and look forward to being able to burn rubber with it.


Sounds fun!


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## Jason Lattimer (Dec 27, 2008)

Sorry bout that. I found that about a controller that ran into the ad for yours. I would like to use a single 13" motor so that won't be an issue anyways. Just wondering because some on here like John Waylands setup and would love to best him with a controller that is not the Zilla.


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## Jason Lattimer (Dec 27, 2008)

I retract my previous statement. I found it on your website. You have it listed under "planned features".

Also, it states that it has precharging and main contactor control. Am I to assume that one would not need to add precharging circuitry or a main contactor?


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## ngcontrols (Nov 4, 2009)

Jason Lattimer said:


> Also, it states that it has precharging and main contactor control. Am I to assume that one would not need to add precharging circuitry or a main contactor?


No precharge circuitry is required - just the two wires running from the controller's main pigtail to the two terminals of the main contactor. Another wire runs to the coil of the main contactor to control it. Although the controller allows this line to become energized and turn the contactor on, and it can turn it off, the key-on switch (usually the ignition switch) will ultimately interrupt power to the main contactor coil, since it is the source.

You will need to add your own contactor. We felt that it was best to let the vehicle designer choose the contactor (in consultation with their EV supplier of choice) that best suits the application.


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## tesla500 (Dec 20, 2009)

Tesseract said:


> Indeed, but there is a reason for the higher price for what would appear to be a simple flipping of bits: the failure rate is expected to be much higher at the elevated settings because you are then eating into the "operating margin".
> 
> In other words, you are paying in advance for repairing the controller should it blow up.





ngcontrols said:


> You're certainly right Tesseract!



A properly designed, built and used motor controller will not blow up, even at maximum power.

If the controller is blowing up when operating at maximum power, it was not designed with enough margin. I would rather pay for more silicon than pay Netgain to repair my controller when it blows up.

If it can handle maximum power without blowing up (which I certainly hope is the case), then you're simply milking more money out of me, because you obviously make money off the cheapest version, otherwise you wouldn't be selling it.

I understand and accept people charging for software features, they cost nothing to add, but may cost a lot to develop. However, I CANNOT accept people charging to ENABLE hardware that I have already payed for. If that charge is required to pay for warranty repairs due to a higher failure rate, it is not a good quality product. If the product is reliable, then you're just greedy.

David


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## Batterypoweredtoad (Feb 5, 2008)

Car manufacturers design their cars to pretty much tolerate ANYTHING. Testing in -30 degrees, testing at 120f, testing on lower than recommended octane gasoline, full performance at higher than recommended load ratings, etc... Why do you think it used to be so easy to get an extra 10-15 hp with a simple chip. Running closer to the safety limit and getting extra hp is what the aftermarket is all about. Its just that in this situation the aftermarket is the manufacturer. They are being brutally honest. In reality they should probably separate themselves from this option because courts think like you do. Sucks.


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## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

Batterypoweredtoad said:


> Car manufacturers design their cars to pretty much tolerate ANYTHING... Why do you think it used to be so easy to get an extra 10-15 hp with a simple chip. Running closer to the safety limit and getting extra hp is what the aftermarket is all about. ...


Sure, I totally agree with you in principle, but in your specific example you are equating a software change that boosts power a _few percent_ with one that more than _triples_ it.


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## ngcontrols (Nov 4, 2009)

tesla500 said:


> If it can handle maximum power without blowing up (which I certainly hope is the case), then you're simply milking more money out of me, because you obviously make money off the cheapest version, otherwise you wouldn't be selling it.


Maybe the original response to Tesseract's post shouldn't have been "you're exactly right". "You've nailed part of it" might have been more appropriate. 

In all honesty, the profitability on the 1000A/160V units at the current price is extremely low, and not enough to support the development that has gone into the controller, nor the long term success of the company. Other controller manufacturer's I'm familiar with are in the same boat. 

So as the controller manufacturer, we have a couple of choices.

1) Sell high voltage, high current controllers at a high price. Period. As the customer, if you want to get into the EV scene with a high quality controller, save up until you can afford it. Or, get a lower quality controller that you might very well be disappointed with, get discouraged, sell everything at a clearance price and get out of the "hobby". 

2) Do what we've done. Sell a lower power, high quality, expandable and upgradeable controller at a low price. When the customer has more money, they can upgrade the controller WITHOUT even removing it from the vehicle! Pay more money, get more power. 

I think if you take a look around, you'll find plenty of examples of "features" that are unlocked by simply paying more money. Cell phone plans, Internet speed, memory in some high-end electronics, etc. The capabilities existed even at the lower price.




tesla500 said:


> I understand and accept people charging for software features, they cost nothing to add, but may cost a lot to develop. However, I CANNOT accept people charging to ENABLE hardware that I have already payed for.


To support higher voltages, at least one additional software feature was required (motor voltage limit). This is only enabled with the 260+ volt options.

If anyone is averse to paying for hardware that is locked up, just buy the controller that has its full capabilities


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## Jimdear2 (Oct 12, 2008)

tesla500 said:


> I understand and accept people charging for software features, they cost nothing to add, but may cost a lot to develop. However, I CANNOT accept people charging to ENABLE hardware that I have already payed for. If that charge is required to pay for warranty repairs due to a higher failure rate, it is not a good quality product. If the product is reliable, then you're just greedy.
> 
> David


David, 

An interesting situation. 

You seem to forget one thing, These people did not put the effort into developing these products to please and support you. Thet did it to make a profit.

It appears that you would welcome and prefer a controller that was hardware limited to the lower pertformance standards that you think you paid for. Then you would be willing later on to pull your unit send it in and have additional or new hardware added to give the higher performance standards. 

I'll bet that the cost of the controller with the lower performance components (yet still be upgradable at a reasonable cost) would be as much if not more then the high performance unit as it is sold now. A lot of money would need to be spent to create this lower output, upgradeable controller. A lot of the higher performance more costly parts would still be needed in the base unit to make it upgradeable, otherwise it would be cheaper to build a separate High and Low Performance units. If you feel that this is what you need, there is a controller manufacturer out there waiting for your money.

The propriatary intllectual properties that go into a controller have a lot of value. It is not just hardware you are paying for. As an example, Tesseract and QER spent a better part of two years developing their controller to meet the high level of standards they set. I'll bet when they got finished they had something that probably cost a lot more to make then they expected. 

When they figured the total business costs to market the controller as it finalized, they probably found the would have limited sales at the market price they would have to set to cover warrenty and support for a controller running at the ragged edge.

But by backing down and limiting the output they could produce a product that was bulletproof under normal use. With that product they could market the product at a much lower price and still make a minimal acceptible profit. Warrenty asnd support costs are VERY HIGH. That way the higher proffits come from the guys willing to pay for the level of support needed fufill their needs for power.

Think about it this way. By doing this bit flipping they are selling you a controller of very high quality, but at a price competive with the other lower quality controllers. A controller that, unlike the others, under normal use you COULD NOT damage. 

You don't really think that those controllers of lesser quality that are selling for a competive price really cost as much to build as the Big Three.

You should change your outlook and be looking at this as if people are giving you hardware that you HAVEN'T paid for. That is until you pay to have the bits flipped.


Be well,


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## Vanquizor (Nov 17, 2009)

Its a pretty bold statement by netgain saying they are the ones that control the inteligence inside the controler, and that in itself is worth far more than the physical controler.

Netgain has put a price tag on all of their tricks beyond basic functionality at ~$2400 (more if you go the upgrade route). If they priced it fairly nobody will take the time to unlock their magic box, if not I'm sure we'll see discount software flashes in no time.

I personally think the premium is scandelous, but I also didn't but my Wii till I could get one for half the introductory price...


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## neanderthal (Jul 24, 2008)

Jeez! All this negativity is getting ridiculous! Everyone complains that there is not enough stuff for us DIY ev guys, that all the good stuff is only being sold to big companies. Netgain has been supplying and building gear for the DIY market for years, stuff for US! 

Here we have a company that takes what the DIY market wants seriously and then makes it for us and sells it at a good price.

I'm just saying, cut them a break.


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## EVComponents (Apr 20, 2009)

tesla500 said:


> A properly designed, built and used motor controller will not blow up, even at maximum power.
> 
> If the controller is blowing up when operating at maximum power, it was not designed with enough margin. I would rather pay for more silicon than pay Netgain to repair my controller when it blows up.


That is the problem with many lesser controllers that are cheap. Many of them that are rated for 500 amps, 750 amps or 1,000 amps, that is their real maximum and they will be riding on the edge if you ever get close to that.

Some of the better designed controllers have a large margin built in. When you are running a Zilla Z1K-LV at it's maximum, the components inside are not being stressed out. They were designed for more than that. 

After you have replaced one cheap controller after it smokes, you might as well have purchased a good one to begin with.


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## ngcontrols (Nov 4, 2009)

EVComponents said:


> After you have replaced one cheap controller after it smokes, you might as well have purchased a good one to begin with.


I just want to make sure here - this thread is talking about the NetGain controller - I hope the "cheap controller" wasn't eluding to it. It's 1400A rating is *not* a momentary rating.

As was mentioned recently in another forum, this is a WONDERFUL time to get into EV's! Zillas are pretty much back in their full glory, and even better, there are even other controller options now!


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## EVComponents (Apr 20, 2009)

ngcontrols said:


> I just want to make sure here - this thread is talking about the NetGain controller - I hope the "cheap controller" wasn't eluding to it. It's 1400A rating is *not* a momentary rating.
> 
> As was mentioned recently in another forum, this is a WONDERFUL time to get into EV's! Zillas are pretty much back in their full glory, and even better, there are even other controller options now!


No. I am not referring to Netgain controllers. There is not enough history yet or customer info to say anything. 
The design looks good and we want to be a dealer of the Netgain WarP controllers.

I am referring to other controllers with well known issues of blowing up often.


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