# Re: [EVDL] War Charging (good, bad or ulgy)?



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] War Charging (good, bad or ulgy)?*



> Peter VanDerWal wrote:
> > My opinion is that if you don't ask to use the outlet, then you are
> > stealing. Seems kind of stupid to steal it when most folks are happy
> > to give it away.
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] War Charging (good, bad or ulgy)?*

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] War Charging (good, bad or ulgy)?*



> shred wrote:
> 
> > Anyway back to the question.
> > Any thoughts?
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] War Charging (good, bad or ulgy)?*

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] War Charging (good, bad or ulgy)?*

My guess is the plugs are placed there for their use. Maintenance, parking
lots sales, etc. And their attorneys would advise no. Changes don't take
place without some form or rebellion... I don't get the impression anyone
War charging or guerrilla charging as they call it in these parts is out to
steal or cheat anyone out of electricity. I'm sure if an infrastructure
existed we'd all use it appropriately. I'm sure guerrilla travel is possible
across the US if planed wisely. That'd be a fun trip... Who's in NY? I'm on
my way.....



> shred <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> >
> > I appreciate the input from all.
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] War Charging (good, bad or ulgy)?*

So following the logic of much of this thread then, if I see a house 
with an outlet on the outside that should be fair game? Does that mean 
I can run my extension cord over to the neighbors and plug in on their 
outlet? Yayyy - free electricity!!! Maybe I can tap his cable too!! 
Come on folks, whether it costs $100 or a penny, and whether it is 
attached to a business or a home, theft is theft and why not just ASK!! 
I've never been turned down, and if I was I would just ask next door 
to them. We have enough bad press to overcome with EV's without going 
around stealing electricity from convenience outlets without asking for it.

For people in Washington State check out http://www.pluginolympia.com 
for lists of places that have agreed to allow the use of their plug ins 
for opportunity charging EV's in various parts of the state. If you 
know of other places that have given permission, add them to the lists...

..
Norm
http://www.wacparts.com



> shred wrote:
> > What is the opinion of the people on this list in regards to war charging or
> > otherwise known as opportunity charging?
> 
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] War Charging (good, bad or ulgy)?*

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Marty Mercer" <[email protected]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, July 09, 2008 1:06 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] War Charging (good, bad or ulgy)?


> My guess is the plugs are placed there for their use. Maintenance, parking
> lots sales, etc. And their attorneys would advise no. Changes don't take
> place without some form or rebellion... I don't get the impression anyone
> War charging or guerrilla charging as they call it in these parts is out 
> to
> steal or cheat anyone out of electricity. I'm sure if an infrastructure
> existed we'd all use it appropriately. I'm sure guerrilla travel is 
> possible
> across the US if planed wisely. That'd be a fun trip... Who's in NY? I'm 
> on
> my way.....
>
Hi EVerybody;

NY? Sure, CT would be in the "shutdown" zone! War Charging? Gees! Never 
heard it called THAT, before. War is bad biz, anyhow, ask any surviving 
intact Iraqi family. I DID a longer trip back in May, driving my Sentra to 
Boston, suburbs, at least. I did just helped myself to my first plug; a 
'stench cord just coiled up by a outlet at a maul sign. It ALMOST has a 
"Hear ya are , Bob" sticker on ot! Backed up to it, just picked up the biz 
end and plugped it in! Took more time to write about it, than to just DO it! 
I went over to the diner to eat breakfast while the car took on about 12 
amps. HowEVer when I returned a guy DID confront me. HE too was diplimatic 
and just said" Well this ISN'T for Public use" Yeah! Right? EV's were gunna 
be stopping every day to eat at the Aero Diner.I, of couse offered to give 
him a few bux, but he just remarked, obliquely that the storeowners at the 
maul were on the hook for the juice. I didn't go into an extended 
conversation with the guy. I just wanted to GO, by now. But with CT's 
obscene Electrical rates, folks are a bit chary at ya just helping yourself. 
Oh you can get away with it, maybe if yur cute, polite, or friends, nearby. 
I trundled off for about 15-20 more miles til I got to the point where it 
was all over! Car was down to 15-20 MPH, and the time was NOW! Looking for a 
garage, welding shop, place with REAL electricity. Ah, An Auto Body shop!! 
Glid in and parked and headed into the office. Asked the guy IF I could buy 
some electricity. My Electric car is DEAD! Well, this request come off as a 
bit of a shock, in the unusual request dept."How would ya hookup"" I saw the 
240 volt welder plug in yur garage bay, when I walked in!"" Ya got your 
hookup cords?" You bet! I whipped out my adapters and plugged in in a couple 
of heartbeats, seeing my 30 amp meter pinned!After doing show an' tell to 
all comers. There you ARE! A close cousin to " Wherever you go, there you 
are?" So, ya settle down with some tunes til the tape player shit out. Oh, 
the damn drive belt broke. You have time to perforn open box sergery on yur 
tape player!OK , SOL on that, the radio still works! You DID bring a book, 
or stack of magazines ya had been planning to read?A THICK book, for 
charging batteries on the road is like watching the pot for water to boil! 
It doesn't! Or when ya answer the fone, take a shit, or shower it will BOIL 
like hell! Anyhow it took about 4 hous plus to get a decent charge, or get 
up to 110 volts(90 volt system). Off again, til I got around Prov. RI and to 
RT-1 north to Bos.Again ran out of juice at a gas station, inconvenience 
store place.Shit! Only about 10 more miles to go!I just went in and asked 
the gal if she minded IF I plugged in, SHE thought the EV was cool! Sure! I 
plugged in at the ice machine, about an hour and away, again!Crept toward 
Sharon, MA, was again outta juice. Pulled off the road across from a few 
guyz sitting outside, chillin' having a beer. " Having Trouble?" they ask; 
"Yeah! I'm outsa juice"" Can I borrow an outlet awile?" "Sure" I crept into 
their driveway.Plugged it in, and we chatted awile. They EVen KNEW Ken 
Olem's, where I was going" "Oh Yeah! the guy with the electric cars and 
tracters" Only 2 miles more to gff again, crept into his driveway, almost 
12 hours later! I coulda rode my Trek multi-speed BIKE faster, although I 
wouldn't have been allowed on the freeway, which I used to bypass 
Providence.And the EV trip was more of an adventure than riding a bike!?

Now , mind you, this was done with a 90 volt car! Hardly one I could crow 
about any range, or more than 50 Iffy miles.MAYBE with the Jetta loaded up 
with 120 volts worth I could eek out, maybe, close to 100 miles?Start early 
in the AM, plan on spending several hours charging in the midday SOMEWHERE, 
touristy type place ya might enjoy the side trip?Spending the ensueing night 
at a motel, plugged into the Coke machine out let or 'stench chord out the 
window from the A/C outlet, in the room? Of couse I look for the 50's style 
Ma and Pa Motels. the great old kind you can park right in fromt of yur 
room. Yo can nip out to the car in your skivvies for the............you 
forgot to bring in earlier? Not the Big Box jobs huddling around every 
interstate on ramp. You have to hunt down the oldies. I KNOW having driven 
out to Woodburn all these years. The Monte Villa in PDX is a great oldie, 
they EVen remember me EVery year!Close to the Wayland Juice Bar, even. EV 
touring would be a excersize in patience, but with a bit of planning (This 
would take the sport out of it??)Maybe with more than one EV? Taking your 
Significent Other, relaxing, not worring about getting there. As we say at 
Amtrak; "Getting Halfway There is Fun" .....Sorry Cunard Lines!

Think of it? The almost enpty American roads? Gas too pricy for most 
Sheeple?YEAH! the SUV's GONE!! You would have the run of the place?You could 
mope along the 2 laners at an amp- easy rate.Actually SEE stuff? EVen a 
magazine" EV Traveler" for the new leasure set? IF this were to catch on and 
bizes actually put up outlets, after all it's US who will be travelin' in 
the future? They supply 50 sense of juice to us, and we buy a 34 bux lunch. 
Good biz? You bet! Stay to look at the Nut Museum, or whatEVer is out there 
in Roadside America? Belive me you can touisty the USA.Here in CT you can 
ride a trolley or a steam train one charge apart just here in CT.The 
merchant-y type folks would love us! As the Great Northern RR( Ha! WHO EVen 
remembers the GNRR, nowadaze?) used to say in their ads; "See America First" 
USE yur US greenbacks now, before they become worthless over seas!

OK Out of wet dream mode. Just a few bright sides of 10 bux a gal gas?

Seeya at the Museum?

Bob MORE below! Stay tuned!

>


> shred <[email protected]> wrote:
> >
> >>
> >> I appreciate the input from all.
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] War Charging (good, bad or ulgy)?*



> Bob Rice wrote:
> > NY? Sure, CT would be in the "shutdown" zone! War Charging? Gees! Never
> > heard it called THAT, before.
> 
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] War Charging (good, bad or ulgy)?*

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----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] War Charging (good, bad or ulgy)?*

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----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] War Charging (good, bad or ulgy)?*



> > Peter VanDerWal wrote:
> >> My opinion is that if you don't ask to use the outlet, then you are
> >> stealing. Seems kind of stupid to steal it when most folks are happy
> >> to give it away.
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] War Charging (good, bad or ulgy)?*

>
> I appreciate the input from all.
> Lowe=E2=80=99s, Home Depot, Big R Ranch Supply, GI Joes & many more chain=
stores
> all
> have outlets on either light poles or parking space flower beds in the
> parking lot.
> Is it just me or are these here for EV charging?
> Also I think a lot of the reason people will say no to allowing charging
> from their outlets is liability.

What difference does it make?

Let me see if I understand you correctly. You feel that it's OK to steal
from someone if you think they will say "no" if you asked for it?

Where did you say you lived? I could use another EV, I'm not going to ask
you to give yours to me, because I'm pretty sure you'll say "no"...

_______________________________________________
For general EVDL support, see http://evdl.org/help/
For subscription options, see http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] War Charging (good, bad or ulgy)?*

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Rick Beebe" <[email protected]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, July 09, 2008 3:17 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] War Charging (good, bad or ulgy)?




> > Bob Rice wrote:
> >> NY? Sure, CT would be in the "shutdown" zone! War Charging? Gees!
> >> Never
> >> heard it called THAT, before.
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] War Charging (good, bad or ulgy)?*

Apparently I'm a bad bad man.... However, I'm glad I have a sense of humor.
What would a rebel be without one? A rebel without a cause..... Its a shame
boys can't be boys anymore....

On Wed, Jul 9, 2008 at 2:50 PM, Robert MacDowell <[email protected]>


> wrote:
> 
> > In Les Miserables, Jean Valjean was taken in by a kindly bishop. Valjean
> > returned this kindness by taking some silver candlesticks and fleeing
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] War Charging (good, bad or ulgy)?*

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----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] War Charging (good, bad or ulgy)?*

>
> So Peter, who is to say that some these outlets in the parking lot are not
> for ICE block heaters?

That would be the owner of the outlets.

> It does get very cold here in Oregon.
I grew up in Oregon, it doesn't get cold enough to ice up an engine while
you're shopping. In fact I don't recall ever seeing anyone with a block
heater on their truck.

> It's okay to plug in you ICE powered car to keep it warmed up but
> don't plug in an EV to the same outlet?

If the owner of the outlets is ok with you plugging in a block heater, I
can't see them objecting to an EV. Some of the bigger block heaters draw
almost as much an EV.

> Much of the time I do ask for permission.
> Some say it's okay and some say no way.
> At the local Food 4 Less store.
> They have outlets in the lot for truck=E2=80=99s hotel loads.
> I was told that under no circumstance could I use them.
> I politely mentioned that I spend over $4000.00 a year in their store &
> that
> I would only use $.15 worth of electricity.
> I now spend under $2000.00 a year there because it's not convenient.
> He (the manager) then said we have no way of monitoring the use.
> So the store is loosing $2000.00 in sales.
> The other thing is when I=E2=80=99m plugged in at a parking lot I tend to=
spend
> more
> time shopping & much more money then I would have not plugged in or if I
> arrived there by petroleum power.
> =E2=80=9CWhat do you think it says about his morals if he's stealing it b=
ecause
> he
> feels certain they would say "no" if he asked?=E2=80=9D
> It says I care enough about pollution to drive an EV & other then a few
> cents worth of electricity I don=E2=80=99t steal.

I see, and you wouldn't be able to drive an EV if you didn't steal the
power for it?
Sounds like you're rationalizing to me. "It's OK to steal as long as I
say it's for a good reason and it's less than certain dollar amount."

Just out of curiosity, what is the dollar value below which it's ok to
steal? What is the price of your morals?

_______________________________________________
For general EVDL support, see http://evdl.org/help/
For subscription options, see http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] War Charging (good, bad or ulgy)?*

If your cars are worried about cold starting in Oregon, you need better =

mechanics.

Wisconsin here 20below average cold, hit 27 below this winter, We =

don't need no stinkin' block heaters!

Joe



> Peter VanDerWal wrote:
> 
> >>So Peter, who is to say that some these outlets in the parking lot are not
> >>for ICE block heaters?
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] War Charging (good, bad or ulgy)?*

"It's easier to ask forgiveness then to ask permission." 

Good, Bad or Ugly? I would have to say it's more promiscuous.

There have been a few situations where I've have had to "borrow" some 
juice. But usually ask first. Most people say yes.

The biggest immediate risk I see doing "War Charging" is tripping the 
donor's breakers. And they usually aren't in a convenient place to 
reset, especially if the business is closed for the evening. You 
don't know what the circuit breaker's amperage is in most cases. I 
imagine most commercial buildings use a higher amp circuit for their 
outside outlets. But you just don't know. I tripped a circuit at an 
Einstein Bagel place a few years back.

And alot of times outdoor circuits don't work. Quite a few light pole 
outlets are often broken or inoperable.

Just to be safe, I set the amps a little on the low side first before 
charging on a strangers outlet. If the outlet is on a 15 amp circuit, 
charging at 10 or 12 could easily trip it, especially with the K&W 
chargers. It's somewhat awkward imposing on them in the first place 
and then to trip their circuit doesn't help matters much.

Chip


















> [email protected] wrote:
> 
> > ------------------------------
> >
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] War Charging (good, bad or ulgy)?*



> Chip Gribben <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> 
> > And alot of times outdoor circuits don't work. Quite a few light pole
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] War Charging (good, bad or ulgy)?*

From: Peter VanDerWal
> The original question wasn't about using public outlets, it was about
> stealing from private individuals and businesses. Aside from being
> morally wrong, it seems petty and stupid to me, especially since he
> stands an excellent chance of getting permission if he simply asks.

But as a practical matter, it is often difficult to tell if an outlet is "public" or not, or who to ask for permission. There is also the time factor; you may need to recharge unexpectedly, or there may not be anyone available to ask.

Are outlets in a public parking lot public? Beside the parking meters? How about at the light poles in a "big box" retail store? What about the ones in your motel room; they are clearly there for you to use, but can you run an extension cord out the window to your EV? How about the outlets at the airport obviously intended for the cleaning staff, but that people routinely use for their laptops without asking?

My policy is the golden rule: Don't do things I wouldn't like if someone did it to me.

> What do you think it says about his morals if he's stealing it because
> he feels certain they would say "no" if he asked?

I'd say that is clearly wrong. But I would charge without permission if I felt certain they would say "yes" if I asked (but couldn't due to some circumstance).

--
Those who say it cannot be done should not interrupt the one who is
doing it. -- Chinese proverb
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart-at-earthlink.net


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] War Charging (good, bad or ulgy)?*

> But as a practical matter, it is often difficult to tell if an outlet is
> "public" or not, or who to ask for permission.

If it's not marked for public use, then you ask. If it's in a city owned
parking space, then you ask the city, if it's in a store's parking lot,
you ask the store.

> There is also the time
> factor; you may need to recharge unexpectedly, or there may not be anyone
> available to ask.

I don't get this attitude. By your logic, if I'm out of gas and in a
hurry, and I walk into a store with an open cash register and I can't find
anyone, then it's ok to take money out of the register to go buy gas.
Or even, that it's ok to take gas without paying for it, if I can't find
the attendant.

I'm sorry, but in my opinion, the fact that it is inconvenient to ask,
does not make it ok to take something that does not belong to you (i.e.
steal it)

>
> Are outlets in a public parking lot public? Beside the parking meters? How
> about at the light poles in a "big box" retail store? What about the ones
> in your motel room; they are clearly there for you to use, but can you run
> an extension cord out the window to your EV? How about the outlets at the
> airport obviously intended for the cleaning staff, but that people
> routinely use for their laptops without asking?

ANd if you plug in and blow the breaker and take down something important
to the owner, well that's their fault right?

I still don't get what is the problem with ASKING before taking. But I
guess that's just the way I was raised. Apparently that sort of thing is
going out of style.




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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] War Charging (good, bad or ulgy)?*

> From: "Peter VanDerWal" <[email protected]> 
>> >
>> > So Peter, who is to say that some these outlets in the parking lot are not
>> > for ICE block heaters?
>> > It does get very cold here in Oregon.
> I grew up in Oregon, it doesn't get cold enough to ice up an engine while
> you're shopping. In fact I don't recall ever seeing anyone with a block
> heater on their truck.

I suspect you never looked around Mount Hood in Winter, or near Pendleton.

Regardless, I'd ask the manager for permission to use the outlet. If the 
answer's "no" then it's time to shop elsewhere.

And as for lawyers telling their client to avoid any possible liability 
by denying conveniences to their customers: (1) That's what the signs in 
the parking lot that say, essentially "You're on your own, it's not our 
fault" are for, and (2) how many KWh does it take to boil a lawyer?


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] War Charging (good, bad or ulgy)?*

On Tue, 8 Jul 2008 21:07:26 -0700 (PDT), shred <[email protected]> wrote:

>
>What is the opinion of the people on this list in regards to war charging or
>otherwise known as opportunity charging?

Let's separate out the two. War charging is plugging into whatever outlet you
can find and get away with. Another term for it is theft of power.
Opportunity charging is about the same thing except that one gets permission
from the outlet owner and offers to pay for the power.

>I have a 120vac charger on board I have a 35 mile range but the main town is
>22.5 miles away & about once every other week I find myself plugged into
>whatever outlet I find. 

Multiple counts of power theft.

>Sometimes it?s a GFI outlet in a parking lot flowerbed or on a light pole. 
>These seem to me to be put there for this purpose.
>Also about half of the heat pump setups that are usually behind a building
>have a good 20amp outlet.
>So if I?m at my dentist?s office spending $700.00 on a crown I don?t feel
>like an outlaw using $.20 worth.

This reminds one of a famous Churchill exchange with some uppity society lady.
He asked her if she'd sleep with him after a fine night on the town. She
would. Then he asked her if she'd sleep with him for 20 pounds. Her reply was
"What do you think I am, a whore?" His reply was, "We've already established
what you are. Now we're merely negotiating price".

You've established yourself as a thief. Now the discussion is simply, how
large a thief are you?

If you take something of value from someone else without his permission then
you're stealing. Pure and simple. I know that some of this modern moral
relativism makes such petty theft Ok because "we're saving the world" but
that's nothing more than rationalizing the crime.

Look at it another way. Suppose you needed a quart of gas, would it be OK to
help yourself to the first car you came to? Would you be surprised to be
arrested if you got caught? Just because you can't see the electricity
doesn't make it any different.

The thing is, most anyone you actually ask will give his permission. I've
NEVER been refused permission. Sometimes this has even involved running an
extension cord inside the business. There's a bit of human psychology
involved. When you ask permission, you empower the person you're asking. That
makes them feel good and almost always leads to "yes".

>The other day I was plugged in at an outlet in a flowerbed in the parking
>lot of what I thought was my bank, when I got back to my car it was
>unplugged and a city employee was standing next to it. 
>I asked if he had unplugged my car & he said yes & what gives you the right
>to steal city services.
>I said I was sorry and would pay for the 45 minutes I used about $.10 worth.
>He said no I don?t want your money just don?t ever do it again.
>?You?re lucky I don?t call the police and have them write you a ticket.?
>I then went to speak to the city administrator who gave me the same
>no-nonsense spiel. 
>I asked him about the city?s stand on alternative fueled vehicles.
>He said ?we have no standing on that issue.?
>Anyway back to the question. 
>Any thoughts?

To summarize the above, you think that you should be treated special because
you think that you are special. How nice. In plain fact, you're a thief.
It's not the magnitude of the act, it's the act itself. If you'll steal
power, what else will you steal? A few slices of bread off the deli counter?
How about the whole loaf? And while you're at it, how 'bout some stuff to go
on it to make sandwiches with?

If your stealing electricity from an outlet is OK, how about the guy who can't
afford his power bill and therefore turns his meter upside down for awhile
every month? After all, it's the same identical thing with only the magnitude
of the crime being different.

Not only are you a thief but you're setting attitudes against EVs. I can hear
the city official now "This guy who we caught stealing energy now wants us to
spend city money to install a charging station. Get real." Ever heard the
saying "First Impressions last a lifetime."? You've set a mighty fine first
impression for EVers in your town. NOT!

The world at large views us EVers as a whacko bunch and in many cases, for
good reason. Letting power theft become a norm, something that we're known
for, will only make things worse. In your mind you may be sitting on the
right hand of God for driving an EV and therefore deserve special privileges.
In your mind but in no one else's.

And how about your reputation. Would you rather someone say "If you can't say
anything else about him, you can know Shred as an honest man" or "There goes
the guy who was caught stealing power. Don't turn your back on him." I know
what I want my reputation to be.

As a boomer with traditional moral values, I'm flabbergasted that we're even
having this discussion. Has the moral decay really gone that far? In the
vernacular of the day, "It's stealing, dude".

John

--
John De Armond
See my website for my current email address
http://www.neon-john.com
http://www.johndearmond.com <-- best little blog on the net!
Tellico Plains, Occupied TN
Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge. -Darwin


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----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] War Charging (good, bad or ulgy)?*



> Joe <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> >If your cars are worried about cold starting in Oregon, you need better
> >mechanics.
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] War Charging (good, bad or ulgy)?*



> "dave cover" <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> >On Thu, Jul 10, 2008 at 1:27 AM, Chip Gribben <[email protected]> wrote:
> >
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] War Charging (good, bad or ulgy)?*

On Thu, 10 Jul 2008 11:30:30 -0500 (GMT-05:00), Lee Hart


> <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> >From: Peter VanDerWal
> >> The original question wasn't about using public outlets, it was about
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] War Charging (good, bad or ulgy)?*



> EVdave <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> 
> >My suggestion would be, the next time you are in town, ask the places
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] War Charging (good, bad or ulgy)?*



> Chip Gribben <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> 
> >The biggest immediate risk I see doing "War Charging" is tripping the
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] War Charging (good, bad or ulgy)?*

On Thu, 10 Jul 2008 04:08:46 -0600 (MDT), "Peter VanDerWal"


> <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> 
> >I don't get this attitude. By your logic, if I'm out of gas and in a
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] War Charging (good, bad or ulgy)?*

On Wed, 9 Jul 2008 16:48:01 -0700 (PDT), shred <[email protected]> wrote:

>
>So Peter, who is to say that some these outlets in the parking lot are not
>for ICE block heaters?
>It does get very cold here in Oregon.

You know better than that. Don't dodge the issue now that you've raised it.
An outlet put in the middle of a flower bed is for Christmas decorations and
such. It isn't there for someone to run a 50 ft cord in order to plug in a
block heater. You know that as well as I do.

>It?s okay to plug in you ICE powered car to keep it warmed up but don?t plug
>in an EV to the same outlet?

No, not unless it's designated as such. Outside of areas where it routinely
goes below zero, you're not going to find those. I never saw then when I was
in New Hampshire and it was -20 or worse the whole time I was there.

>Much of the time I do ask for permission.
>Some say it's okay and some say no way.
>At the local Food 4 Less store. 
>They have outlets in the lot for truck?s hotel loads. 
>I was told that under no circumstance could I use them.
>I politely mentioned that I spend over $4000.00 a year in their store & that
>I would only use $.15 worth of electricity. 
>I now spend under $2000.00 a year there because it's not convenient.
>He (the manager) then said we have no way of monitoring the use.
>So the store is loosing $2000.00 in sales.

That's "losing", not "loosing". I'm sure that you were wearing your
entitlement on your shoulder when you "asked". If you'd politely offered to
meter the power or simply to pay them a flat rate, the answer would likely
have been different.

Ultimately, if you don't like the store for that reason or for any reason at
all, you go somewhere else. That's the essence of the free market.

>The other thing is when I?m plugged in at a parking lot I tend to spend more
>time shopping & much more money then I would have not plugged in or if I
>arrived there by petroleum power.

Geez, the power of the human mind to rationalize away bad behavior.

>?What do you think it says about his morals if he's stealing it because he 
>feels certain they would say "no" if he asked??
>It says I care enough about pollution to drive an EV & other then a few
>cents worth of electricity I don?t steal.
>Neal

No, it says that you're trying to impose your fringe enviro-religious beliefs
on someone else AND that you want someone else to pay for your beliefs.

You're no different than the scumbag preachers who used to come in my store
and demand donations "for Jesus". My reply always was "When Jesus comes in,
the store is His. Everyone else pays."

John
--
John De Armond
See my website for my current email address
http://www.neon-john.com
http://www.johndearmond.com <-- best little blog on the net!
Tellico Plains, Occupied TN
Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge. -Darwin


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] War Charging (good, bad or ulgy)?*

>> Wisconsin here 20 below average cold, hit 27 below this winter, We
>> don't need no stinkin' block heaters!



> Neon John wrote:
> > yep. I know for a fact that any vehicle that Ford sells must be able
> > to start by itself after an overnight soak at -40 F or C... Ford
> > isn't any different than any other manufacturer.
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] War Charging (good, bad or ulgy)?*

Hi everyone. My name's Rich and I'm a thief.

John lays it out pretty well and even though I've done wrong, I agree with him. I asked for permission several times and never received a reply either way which is as bad as being told "no" and doing it anyway.

I'm not interested in discussing how large a thief I am, I think it's irrelevant. I've done it and that's bad enough. That's why I altered my commute several months ago to a different rail system where I don't have to charge during the day.

I'm not trying to rationalize power theft, but none of us here are perfect. I don't pay fuel taxes, emissions taxes or inspection fees because I don't buy gasoline, I make no emissions and I have Historic tags on my car. However, I still use the roads. Does that make me a thief twice over? Should I call my state rep and ask if I can send some money to make up for the fuel taxes that I'm not paying?

_______________________________________
Message: 6
Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2008 19:36:23 -0400
From: Neon John 
Subject: Re: [EVDL] War Charging (good, bad or ulgy)?
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List 
Message-ID: 
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii


Multiple counts of power theft.
(snip)

You've established yourself as a thief. Now the discussion is simply, how
large a thief are you? (snip)



________________________________

Rich A.
Maryland
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/371.html
http://patriotfuel.blogspot.com/




_________________________________________________________________
Making the world a better place one message at a time.
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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] War Charging (good, bad or ulgy)?*

So size does matter?

Charlie in Iowa



> Richard Acuti <[email protected]> wrote:
> >
> > Hi everyone. My name's Rich and I'm a thief.
> >
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] War Charging (good, bad or ulgy)?*

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] War Charging (good, bad or ulgy)?*

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aWxtYW4vbGlzdGluZm8vZXYKCg==


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] War Charging (good, bad or ulgy)?*

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] War Charging (good, bad or ulgy)?*

>I made up that says "This vehicle runs on nuclear power". 

I'm thinking about one that says "Powered by clean burning nuclear power", or something like that.

Bill


_______________________________________________
For general EVDL support, see http://evdl.org/help/
For subscription options, see http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] War Charging (good, bad or ulgy)?*

Hi Richard,

You've accomplished the first step in "War Charging" recovery. And 
that is to admit to your transgressions 

You're more then welcome to charge up at my place in Laurel if you're 
in this area.

No, don't call the State and volunteer money or give them ideas on 
further ways to tax us. Everything is going up across the board 
already. You already pay Maryland a bi-yearly car registration fee 
which is like $70 per year. And with the deregulation thing, 
electricity went up some rediculous percentage. 70 percent, wasn't 
it? And I hear more tax increases are on the way. We also still pay 
tolls like everybody else.

There are so few EVs in Maryland anyway. I can count on one hand the 
amount of EVs I know in Maryland that are actually working.

Believe me, once PHEVs and EVs hit the road enmasse, the legislators 
will eventually come up with a creative way to implement a "user fee" 
or tax on their own. We don't need to give them any more ideas on 
taking money from us.

Now you got me thinking I'm stealing road usage for free now . . . 
the guilt of owning an EV.

I'm a triple cheater then. My wife pays the electric bill, I'm a 
veteran of War Charging myself and I drive on the roads without 
paying the appropriate taxes. It looks like I'm going to EV Hell.

If you are feeling really guilty about it. You can estimate what your 
taxes would be and donate the money towards some state initiative or 
cause that benefits the state like the Chesapeake Bay Foundation.

BTW, we got rid of the guilt with the diesel generator and emissions 
expended at the Power of DC. We paid $50 in carbon credits to offset 
the use of the generator, the airplane flights people took and the 
gas that was used to get to the event. We had everything calculated 
by an organization that distributes carbon credits and we donated the 
$50. I have no idea how that actually all works. Charlie Garlow, an 
EVA/DCer who works as an air enforcement lawyer for the EPA and knows 
about how credits work handled it. So we are trying to cover the 
bases on the "guilt" thing.

Chip











> [email protected] wrote:
> 
> > Message: 29
> > Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2008 09:19:49 -0400
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] War Charging (good, bad or ulgy)?*

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] War Charging (good, bad or ulgy)?*

I went with a license plate that says NO OPEC

Dave
Yardley, PA




> [email protected] wrote:
> >> I made up that says "This vehicle runs on nuclear power".
> >>
> >
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] War Charging (good, bad or ulgy)?*

Lol...."EV hell", I love that. I'll have a table for one by the Lake of Fi=
re please.

I'll take you up on your offer to charge. In fact, this effort has been di=
scussed before- making a grassroots network of EV charging spots and postin=
g it on some sort of interactive map. Then you could plan your trips accord=
ingly after you contacted a volunteer on your route and confirmed that you =
could pop in for a fill-up. To that end, I'll extend the same offer to you =
Chip, if you're ever down to Crofton you can plug in at my place. I have 11=
0 service and if you need 220, we'll need a long cord to reach my dryer out=
let.

That will help us circumvent the short sightedness of businesses who don't =
want to accept that more and more shoppers will be coming to their stores u=
sing something other than gasoline.
________________________________
Message: 18
Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2008 11:01:50 -0400
From: Chip Gribben =

Subject: Re: [EVDL] War Charging (good, bad or ulgy)?
To: [email protected]
Message-ID: =

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3DUS-ASCII; delsp=3Dyes; format=3Dflowed

Hi Richard,

You've accomplished the first step in "War Charging" recovery. And
that is to admit to your transgressions 

You're more then welcome to charge up at my place in Laurel if you're
in this area.

(snip)


________________________________

Rich A.
Maryland
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/371.html
http://patriotfuel.blogspot.com/




_________________________________________________________________
The i=92m Talkaton. Can 30-days of conversation change the world?
http://www.imtalkathon.com/?source=3DEML_WLH_Talkathon_ChangeWorld


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] War Charging (good, bad or ulgy)?*

>
> Anyone who buys something at a garage sale or on Ebay or anywhere on the
> net
> and if they fail to file a state sales tax payment to their state are then
> a thief.

Hmm, when did Oregon start charging sales tax?

Regardless, did you not have parents growing up? I remember trying this
facetious argument when I was growing up and generally got a response
along the line of "Just because the other kids are doing it, doesn't mean
it's OK for you to do it."

Again, you are rationalizing, trying to come up with crimes, that in many
states don't exist, to justify your criminal activity.

I'm not perfect, I can remember stealing candy bars as a kid. However, I
never felt it was OK to steal because candy bars were cheap, or because
other kids were doing drugs.
Stealing is wrong, I knew it and I never tried to convince myself or
others that it was OK.

Stealing is wrong, and you are not going to convince me, or anyone else I
suspect, that it's ok because someone else cheats on their taxes.

> Bought a car or boat and not written the full sales price down on the bill
> of sale in order to save a little on the sales tax during registration.
> That would make most all of the people in CA thieves. Or any other state
> that requires sales tax paid on any transaction in used goods.
> Have you ever given kid money for doing a chore around your house, a
> babysitter maybe? Hope you had a state employer ID # and paid tax on the
> wages. If they were under 18 a work permit is required too.
> Most of the population in the US are thieves.
> I find this interesting=E2=80=A6
> http://www.backwoodshome.com/columns/wolfe0106.html
>
>


> > Richard Acuti wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >> Hi everyone. My name's Rich and I'm a thief.
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] War Charging (good, bad or ulgy)?*

Folks, this discussion is going nowhere. The sides have put up their 
barricades and are dug in for a long battle. The ugly stuff is starting to 
fly, and that's never good.

Face it : nobody is going to change his mind here. Let it go, let the 
thread die, and let's move on to a more productive discussion.

Thanks.

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
EVDL Information: http://www.evdl.org/help/
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = 
Note: mail sent to "evpost" or "etpost" addresses will not 
reach me. To send a private message, please obtain my 
email address from the webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ .
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =



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----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] War Charging (good, bad or ulgy)?*

> From: Neon John <[email protected]>
> 
> I was trying not to pick on Lee but let's recall that he is talking about
> Minnesota, the very heart of socialism in the US.

Guess I must be a socialist, too, because there are public EV charging 
outlets in the heart of downtown Portland, OR.

Or perhaps there are some city officials who actually have the good of 
future generations at heart. I guess it depends on cynical I want to be.


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] War Charging (good, bad or ulgy)?*



> Peter VanDerWal wrote:
> >
> >>
> >> Anyone who buys something at a garage sale or on Ebay or anywhere on the
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] War Charging (good, bad or ulgy)?*

You guys realize you are more or less discussing two different things. One
is the
intent of the law and the other is the letter of the law. "intent" can have
a lot 
more grey area or flexibility in application while "letter" is simply yes or
no.

If you picked up that twig in the wrong national park in front of the wrong
ranger you could end up in shiny bracelets (or being lectured). You come
over
to my house and pick up the twig I be pissed off you didn't take all of
them.
In both cases according to the law you didn't have permission or any right
to 
acquire the twig. The result is how the law is applied.

Lets say instead of a twig you go to a gas station and fill your car with
gas
and then dash off. Is that theft? Yes of course it is. Someone else paid for
the material and you didn't compensate them for the use or acquisition. Now
take the same situation but charge your EV. The only difference is that the
material is different. You are still filling your car with "fuel" that you 
haven't legally acquired. While you might only take a dollars worth of
electrons
compared to say a hundred for the gas the action taken is still the same.
Either one could result in criminal or civil action taken. How much money
will you have saved if the local court decides to make an example and fines
you
a "reasonable" couple of hundred bucks because you used 50 cents worth of
electricity
and trespassed to do it?

Dave


-----Original Message-----



> Peter VanDerWal wrote:
> >
> >>
> >> Anyone who buys something at a garage sale or on Ebay or anywhere on the
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] War Charging (good, bad or ulgy)?*



> Dave King wrote:
> > While you might only take a dollars worth of electrons...
> 
> Technically, any electrons you "steal" are returned 1/120th of a
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] War Charging (good, bad or ulgy)?*

On Fri, 11 Jul 2008 07:00:22 -0700 (PDT), shred <[email protected]> wrote:

>
>I find this interesting? 
>http://www.backwoodshome.com/columns/wolfe0106.html
>shred

That is irrelevant to this discussion, which is about morals. It's quite
unfortunate to have "the law" brought into this discussion, as that is little
more than diversionary arm-waving.

None of us, at least none of us who had a decent up-bringing, needs a law to
define stealing to us. We all know when we've stolen something, though it
sometimes takes some reflection to realize the fact. The better among us
endeavor not to do it again.

John
--
John De Armond
See my website for my current email address
http://www.neon-john.com
http://www.johndearmond.com <-- best little blog on the net!
Tellico Plains, Occupied TN
Unable to locate Coffee -- Operator Halted!


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----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] War Charging (good, bad or ulgy)?*



> Richard Acuti <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> >
> >Hi everyone. My name's Rich and I'm a thief.
> ...


----------

