# [EVDL] Current Lithium battery costs



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

I see prices starting from about 1.20 per Ah per cell
so 300V is about 90 series cells (LiFePO4) combined with
your desire of 200Ah is somewhere in the 90x200x1.20
or 22,000 price range. This is just the cells.

Regards,

Cor van de Water
Chief Scientist
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
Email: [email protected] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water XoIP: +31877841130
Tel: +1 408 383 7626 Tel: +91 (040)23117400 x203 

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On
Behalf Of [email protected]
Sent: Sunday, March 04, 2012 2:54 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: [EVDL] Current Lithium battery costs

I'm starting to think about what to do when my trucks lead pack dies.
It's definitely getting weaker.
I currenly have 288v of U2200 batteries. 3000 lbs of lead gave me about
a 30 mile range. (near 100% DOD) Probalby < 100AH at 150A.
Nowadays, I'm down to more like a 20 mile range. 

So, I'm contemplating the (huge) expense of a Lithium pack.
I'd like something around 300V at 200AH. (I really do want more range,
I'd be able to use the truck a LOT more.)

So, what is the current pricing for a pack like that?
With and Without BMS. (I'd really prefer to continue using my PFC-50
charger.)

--
Try my Sensible Email package!
https://sourceforge.net/projects/sensibleemail/

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> [email protected] wrote:
> > I'm starting to think about what to do when my trucks lead pack dies.
> > It's definitely getting weaker.
> > I currenly have 288v of U2200 batteries. 3000 lbs of lead gave me about a 30 mile range. (near 100% DOD) Probalby < 100AH at 150A.
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Hello Willie,

The Manzanita PFC-50 charger can be dial down to 0.1 of a amp which is the 
lowest reading my E-Meter reads.

It is prefer to turn the current down when turning off if the charging 
ampere is high. Also the current should be turn down before you start up 
the charger.

I have no problems when we lost commercial power while the charger was on 
and the current is up above 40 amps.

Roland


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Willie McKemie" <[email protected]>

With and Without BMS. (I'd really prefer to continue using my PFC-50 
charger.)

AFAIK, miniBMS is still the price leader at $12.75 per module plus ~$30 for 
the control unit kit.

Seems like I've read here that the Manzanita does not like to be
abruptly turned on. Will it likely blow up when abruptly turned off, too? 
If not, then a BMS controlled AC relay to the charger should be good. On 
reflection, it seems unlikely that a charger would blow up on power drops.

The Russco guy was just telling me that his charger can be dialed back to a 
fraction of an amp. If the Manzanita will do the same, that would be ideal 
for pack top balancing with BMS modules that by pass less than an amp (like 
miniBMS). I'm using a Zivan that will not charge less thay 3 amps and 
several others that will not cut back at all. For that reason, I use a 
string of small 48v power supplies as a "balancing charger"


Willie, ONWARD! Through the fog!
http://counter.li.org Linux registered user #228836 since 1995
Debian3.1/GNU/Linux system uptime 39 days 11 hours 15 minutes



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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Roland Wiench wrote:
> >
> > I have no problems when we lost commercial power while the charger was on
> > and the current is up above 40 amps.
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

I have heard about the PFC charger not being able to
withstand the *output* being disconnected (ie if the
contactor drops out while it is charging, the charger
will blow up) but I have not heard of problems with
the *input* fluctuating - which is quite common in
parts of the USA.

Regards,

Cor van de Water
Chief Scientist
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
Email: [email protected] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water XoIP: +31877841130
Tel: +1 408 383 7626 Tel: +91 (040)23117400 x203 

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On
Behalf Of Willie McKemie
Sent: Sunday, March 04, 2012 5:59 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Current Lithium battery costs



> Roland Wiench wrote:
> >
> > I have no problems when we lost commercial power while the charger was
> 
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

>> Seems like I've read here that the Manzanita does not like to be
>> abruptly turned on. Will it likely blow up when abruptly turned off, too?

Here is the issue as I understand it:

The PFC charger is a boost converter. Such converters have a large 
inductor in series with the input, right after the bridge rectifier. The 
other end of the inductor has a big IGBT transistor switch to neutral, 
and a big diode to the + output to your battery pack. here is a rough 
schematic: View with a fixed width font like Courier:
_____ _ _ _
AC_______|AC +|____| | | |________|\|_____pack+
hot | | inductor | |/|
| | |_| diode
| | PWM-||_ IGBT
| | | |
AC_______|AC -|______________|____________pack-
neutral |_____|
bridge rectifier

A PWM (pulse width modulator) circuit cycles the IGBT on/off. When on, 
it *shorts* the inductor across the rectified AC line! Current in the 
inductor builds up.

Then the IGBT turns off. The inductor will not let the current stop; it 
"kicks" the voltage up until the diode conducts. The current that was 
flowing in the IGBT now flows into the pack. The pack voltage can be 
*higher* than the AC line voltage at the moment. This is why it is 
called a "boost" converter -- the output voltage is always higher than 
the input voltage.

But what happens if there is no pack? If you forget to connect the pack, 
or a fuse or circuit breaker opens, or there is a bad connections 
somewhere in the wiring between charger and pack?

Now the IGBT turns on, and the inductor current ramps up to some value. 
When the IGBT turns off, the inductor "kicks" the voltage up, up, up; 
trying to find someplace to force that current to flow. You get the 
dreaded voltage spike that inductors are famous for. And this is a 
*huge* inductor, that stores a lot of energy! The peak voltage spike is 
going to murder something!

So... it doesn't matter if the AC goes off or on. All that matters is 
that the *OUTPUT* stays connected as long as the charger is operating!
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget your perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in.
-- Leonard Cohen, from "Anthem"
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart at earthlink.net

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

On Sun Mar 04 15:43:57 PST 2012 [email protected] said:
>


> [email protected] wrote:
> >> I'm starting to think about what to do when my trucks lead pack dies.
> >> It's definitely getting weaker.
> >> I currenly have 288v of U2200 batteries. 3000 lbs of lead gave me about a 30 mile range. (near 100% DOD) Probalby < 100AH at 150A.
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Lee Hart wrote:
> > >> Seems like I've read here that the Manzanita does not like to be
> > >> abruptly turned on. Will it likely blow up when abruptly turned off, too?
> >
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Lee,

The Manzanita PFC chargers are a boost stage followed by a buck stage;
that's what allows it to charge packs lower than 170V.

I believe the boost stage acts as a standard PFC circuit, modulating to
draw a rectified-sine current from the rectifier, so the line current is
sinusoidal. As a result, the output of the boost stage is 350-420V, with
enormous ripple at 120Hz - at AC zero-crossing, the power is 0, but at AC
peak, the power is twice the average power. For example, for 240V 40A in
and 380V out (and DC output current), to limit the peak-to-peak 120Hz
ripple voltage to 40V, you would need about 1700uF of capacitance at the
output of the boost stage.

A 10mH inductor carrying 40A stores 8 Joules of energy, but charging 1700uF
of capacitance from 400V to 450V takes 36 Joules.

So there's likely plenty of capacitance at the output of the boost stage.

My understanding is that it's the output of the buck stage that has little
capacitance, as the buck inductor limits the ripple current to the
batteries and very little capacitance is needed for normal operation.

If the pack is disconnected, the result is much the same as you described
with the boost converter; the output voltage keeps rising trying to dump
the energy of the inductor.

-Morgan LaMoore



> Lee Hart <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> > On 3/5/2012 9:36 AM, Willie McKemie wrote:
> > >> it doesn't matter if the AC goes off or on. All that matters is
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Lee,

My understanding was that the PFC50 had a 50A buck stage, while the "buck
enhanced" version had a 75A buck stage to allow higher output current for
most battery packs. This is supported by the Manzanita Micro description:

http://www.manzanitamicro.com/old/pfc50a.htm

The description says 50A input or output depending on whether input or
output voltage is higher, or 75A output with the buck enhanced version.

With just a boost PFC stage, that wouldn't work out, as a boost converter
doesn't work with the input voltage higher than the output voltage.

Either way, the charger is relying on the battery pack for most of its
output capacitance; whether the output stage is boost or buck, suddenly
disconnecting the pack that acts as its output capacitance will have the
same effect of the inductor causing a large voltage spike.

-Morgan LaMoore



> Lee Hart <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> > On 3/5/2012 5:47 PM, Morgan LaMoore wrote:
> > > The Manzanita PFC chargers are a boost stage followed by a buck stage;
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

The only way that the PFC type charger can handle pack
voltages lower than the Peak AC input voltage, which in
parctice means just about *any* pack - as a typical 240V
input may require the pack to never be below 370V for
plain PFC to work in all cases - is that the PFC charger
*always* has a Buck converter following the PFC stage,
with the Buck converter spec'ed for the same max current
as the max PFC input current.
Then, especially for lower pack voltages, there is an
*enhanced* version of the Buck converter that is spec'ed
to deliver 50% more current, such that you can have
for example a 240V 50A AC service and max that out
while you are pumping 75A into your 144V DC pack.

So, besides the lower current models, the 50A model is
either:
Normal: 
50Amp PFC followed by 50A Buck, so its max is reached
when either in or out current reaches 50A and
Enhanced:
50A PFC followed by 75A Buck, so that its max is
reached when either in current reaches 50A or the
output current reaches 75A

AFAIK all can charge a pack anywhere between 12V and 400V

Regards,

Cor van de Water
Chief Scientist
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
Email: [email protected] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water XoIP: +31877841130
Tel: +1 408 383 7626 Tel: +91 (040)23117400 x203 

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On
Behalf Of Morgan LaMoore
Sent: Monday, March 05, 2012 5:58 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Current Lithium battery costs

Lee,

My understanding was that the PFC50 had a 50A buck stage, while the
"buck enhanced" version had a 75A buck stage to allow higher output
current for most battery packs. This is supported by the Manzanita Micro
description:

http://www.manzanitamicro.com/old/pfc50a.htm

The description says 50A input or output depending on whether input or
output voltage is higher, or 75A output with the buck enhanced version.

With just a boost PFC stage, that wouldn't work out, as a boost
converter doesn't work with the input voltage higher than the output
voltage.

Either way, the charger is relying on the battery pack for most of its
output capacitance; whether the output stage is boost or buck, suddenly
disconnecting the pack that acts as its output capacitance will have the
same effect of the inductor causing a large voltage spike.

-Morgan LaMoore



> Lee Hart <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> > On 3/5/2012 5:47 PM, Morgan LaMoore wrote:
> > > The Manzanita PFC chargers are a boost stage followed by a buck
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Willie McKemie wrote:
> 
> >
> > Seems like I've read here that the Manzanita does not like to be
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> George Tyler wrote:
> > There is another way, if you use the positive rectified rail as the negative
> > of the output the output voltage can be above or below the peak of the
> > mains, and this is very simple, you only have 1 switching fet/igbt. it would
> ...


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