# Green Machine Experiment



## greif (Jun 26, 2010)

can I get your autograph before you become famous and charge for them

how about a minvan with a ecomoded boat tail, lots of room for batteries.

so are the fronting the money to do it?

make sure they let you bring it to the MREA fair next year.

gary


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## BenNelson (Jul 27, 2007)

Lots of things are still up in the air on this project, as it is just getting started.

I'm sure once it is done, it's going to get shown off at the MREA and every other Eco/Energy fair we can get it to!


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## tomofreno (Mar 3, 2009)

How much time do you have to complete the conversion?
Yes, it will have to use lithium cells to get any decent time between charges.
You will need to purchase tried and true components to minimize risk. Known good motor and controller, charger, etc.
Something aerodynamic with room for a 40 or 50 kWh pack would be nice.


Would be nice if you could get these guys to help you build it:

http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showthread.php/207-5mpge-57372.html


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## Guest (Jun 9, 2011)

Nice trailer but the ones who want to do the drive across the country need to front the money for the build. Nothing is for free you know. You have a short time and lots to plan. 

American? Mmmmm. You will need a vehicle with room for a large pack. Cool old American Van? Plenty of room for batteries and a nice 11" GE motor. Zilla/Soliton1 Controllers comes to mind. Elcon 4000 charger comes to mind for reliable. TS come to mind for cells. No need to bother with the BMS crap.

Pretty much you need to plan the trip and charging issues. The build should and could be pretty much straight forward. No need for a speed demon but something for endurance and grunt power. I think it would work. Remember it should not be you who fronts the money. You should be getting paid for the work and all the other sponsors who want to do this should front the funds. You have enough to do let along dig for funds for this ambitious project. 

Yes, it would be excellent PR but it sounds more like a PR stunt for an upcoming business of someone wanting to build electric cars.


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

Well a saturn is technically an american car - how bout it? [ducks for cover]

Funding would be the real concern with something like this. From what I've seen first hand and of others, you should come up with the most pessimistic budget you can think of with all the numbers rounded up, then add another 50% to account for unforeseen problems or rework that WILL occur no matter how well the project is planned.

I've seen some of your other videos, and you do have the personality for the camera - Right up there with Gavin(KiwiEV). Ideally you would still have many of your friends pitch in even if you are officially the 'builder' and otherwise the face of the project.

For charging across long distances, you could try arranging with a well known chain store and plan it out that way. Someone up here in canada has videos where a few Home Hardware stores (think of them like a smaller version of Home Depot) let them charge the jeep on a longer trip. They got store managers and a few friendly employees on camera too so it was all in good fun. Search Utube for "EV2 electric jeep" find him.


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## jackbauer (Jan 12, 2008)

Well here goes........ I'll build you a motor controller.

Two things I would consider very important.

1) The build must be repeatable. ie DON'T use unobtanium such as uqm drivetrain and kokam batteries. I automatically tune out those sort of projects. Any idiot can solve a problem with money and a telephone.

2) America has produced some of the most icionic cars over the past 50 years. For a good choice look to your past.

Anyway what would I know? I'm just a dumb mick who grew up on watching car chases on the A-Team


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## BenNelson (Jul 27, 2007)

Hey Jack,

One thing I would really like to do is make the whole thing as Open Source as possible.

Show how to re-use and modify easy-to-get parts. Build what we can. Visit junk-yards!

A big part of this is to show what's possible. Other than the cost of a lithium battery pack, I would like this to be as affordable, yet high-performance.

I finally met Paul Holmes last week in person. We were talking about an Open Source Controller/Charger/BMS setup.

Hopefully, when we are done, ANYONE can build one of these cars.


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## DavidDymaxion (Dec 1, 2008)

This sounds like it would be a great adventure! Ben I think you would have a good screen presence for it.

The nature of the journey I think greatly shapes the build.

Do you want to hit the freeways and get across the nation as fast as possible? Then you'd want something aerodynamic like a 3rd generation Pontiac Firebird.

Do you want to present a self-contained lifestyle? Maybe then a Chrysler Minivan that has been made into a mini motorhome (camp in the vehicle).

Do you want to give lots of rides? Do the minivan but keep the seats.

Do you want to go fast at race tracks along the way? (BTW I think this would a fantastic story, build a super fast car, hit 50 drag race tracks in 50 states, and record the gasser's reactions to getting beat.) OK, this one is probably not realistic but it is fun to dream.

Will there be a support truck for the journey? Could the support truck or the car itself have a generator on board (maybe natural gas or biodiesel)? Could you do tow regen?

The book "Solo" by Noel Perrin describes his journey with an electric car. Mountains killed his range and he decided to tow it home, but it was still a great read.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Since the pack will be the most expensive part of a long range vehicle you obviously want to maximize your efficiency to minimize the pack size, which would seem to rule out vans and such. I'll second a Camaro/Firebird/Trans-am build, I saw a gen 4 Trans-am the other day with a very aerodynamic looking front end, there was no grill opening! Must take air from underneath. You'd have to figure out how large a pack you need, i.e. how much distance between charges, and if you can fit it in the car. You could probably find a Camaro for less money and do body mods to make it as aerodynamic as the Trans-am.


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## BenNelson (Jul 27, 2007)

The last two comments were all pretty spot on.

To start with, I don't really think anyone wants to see a minivan.

A sports car / muscle car, something like that. Something good enough to be slightly eye-catching.

We're thinking sort of a Route 66 trip - cross the country the old way, not on interstates. That way, the speed is kept down, and the whole trip will be a lot more interesting.

Meet people along the way. Visit local EV clubs. Charge up where ever people will let us.

There will be a support vehicle. The film-makers can't all fit in one car, and I think there will be several cameras, laptops, and other video gear with. The thought right now is that it will be a rented RV. That also gives a few beds to sleep in, instead of paying for motels every night. A kitchen in an RV could help keep the food budget down as well.

I was also thinking that CAMP GROUNDS are some of the few places that you can reliably charge an electric car, without getting hassled about it! You just rent an electric site. You pay for the electricity, then you plug the car in!

I read SOLO some time back. It was a good book. The final route will be planned to be as energy efficient as we can make it.


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## BenNelson (Jul 27, 2007)

PS: I want something that can burn rubber.

Rear-wheel drive, burning rubber.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

That will of course increase the cost of the build, depending on how much rubber you want to burn, and how often.
Another vehicle possibility is a Pontiac Fiero which you can probably find cheap. If you don't care about storage space there is a lot of room for cells, and the car is small, decent cd, easily improved with modified body panels, which are fiberglass, and not too heavy. I fit a 12kwh pack of 100ah CALBs, 36 cells, all in my engine compartment, with room for more, which gives me a 50 mile range in mixed driving. There is still room in the gas tank tunnel, the trunk, and the front end. You could certainly do a 100 mile range Fiero, maybe more. Mid engine and all that battery weight might make burnouts more difficult of course, I don't know if there is enough clearance near the passenger side half shaft to fit an 11 inch.


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## valerun (Nov 12, 2010)

BenNelson said:


> PS: I want something that can burn rubber.
> 
> Rear-wheel drive, burning rubber.


Oh yes! Great idea. Let me know if you need help with the charger! ;-)

Val


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## dtbaker (Jan 5, 2008)

I think it would be more interesting to forget trying to build and tour a single vehicle, and just locate and tour the (thousand?) operational DIY EVs that already exist. Do short clips on existing ones, pick the 'best' interviews and put together a Documentary on what already exists under the radar!


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## Guest (Jun 10, 2011)

dtbaker said:


> I think it would be more interesting to forget trying to build and tour a single vehicle, and just locate and tour the (thousand?) operational DIY EVs that already exist. Do short clips on existing ones, pick the 'best' interviews and put together a Documentary on what already exists under the radar!


I agree, was totally focused on building, but when there are already thousands already built there must be ONE that can perform reliably enough to do the task. Find that one and go for it. Saves a bunch of time too. Find one that has build photos and or video's to be included. Or take it apart just enough to do a pretend build and be done with it. 

Or as Dan says. Do an interview on all of them. Would make a great show. 

Pete


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## valerun (Nov 12, 2010)

dtbaker said:


> I think it would be more interesting to forget trying to build and tour a single vehicle, and just locate and tour the (thousand?) operational DIY EVs that already exist. Do short clips on existing ones, pick the 'best' interviews and put together a Documentary on what already exists under the radar!


Good direction. I think what would be even cooler is to do a call for the owners of great-looking, good-performance EVs that are willing to join the coast-to-coast EV rally. Do a tight looks/performance/quality control and you can have way more impact on your audience than with a single car. Then, on the way, I would organize a bunch of EV mini-festivals where I would call in all the EV onwers of similar type EVs (but who cannot devote a couple of months for touring the country) and open the events to public. 

Again, this IMHO would be WAY more impactful and REALLY show that EV conversions are real, fun and gaining scale.

What do you think?

Val


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## Guest (Jun 10, 2011)

> .......do a call for the owners of great-looking, good-performance EVs....


This would be quite subjective you know. I think mine is great looking and it has good performance but not great distance endurance. It is the distance endurance that will help. I have some ideas that might be useful but not yet ready so are moot at this time. But I agree that it should really be something done with already built vehicles. It might not even need to be one where you drive across the country. A great documentary could be done. No expense except to interview and video. No build costs.  Plenty of folks could provide build video footage and driving footage. 

Thanks Dan for the great idea. Time to push this idea this direction. I think its a great idea to do a video.


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## valerun (Nov 12, 2010)

gottdi said:


> This would be quite subjective you know. I think mine is great looking and it has good performance but not great distance endurance. It is the distance endurance that will help. I have some ideas that might be useful but not yet ready so are moot at this time. But I agree that it should really be something done with already built vehicles. It might not even need to be one where you drive across the country. A great documentary could be done. No expense except to interview and video. No build costs.  Plenty of folks could provide build video footage and driving footage.
> 
> Thanks Dan for the great idea. Time to push this idea this direction. I think its a great idea to do a video.


I know ;-) That's why I think we farm it out to the film director and he makes a call on self-nominations he receives. 

I think cross-country tour or similar exhibition of the 'normalcy' of the EV conversions is a must. In the eyes of most people outside of this (and similar) forums, EV conversions are clunky golf carts, breaking down every other day. It took me a few burnout videos and a bunch of rides to persuade most of my friends otherwise...

I agree that the documentary on other builds can be layered on, but then again, I would strongly advise for:
1. Showing EVs in action (ride-alongs in different conditions, etc)
2. Avoiding anything that cannot maintain typical gasoline car performance at freeway speeds.
3. Avoiding exotic conversions (i.e. kit cars, completely rebuilt chassis, even the ones with torn-out back seats to fill batteries). The featured conversions MUST be as close as possible to a normal car - otherwise your mainstream audience will tune out as they won't see this as relevant.

Just some ideas from a guy who spent last 7 years consulting fortune 50 co's on marketing... ;-)

V


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## Nathan219 (May 18, 2010)

*good luck*

We can help; it is going to be hard depending on how far they want the vehicle to travel each day. Ben, it doesn’t take a rocket scientist to build this project but it is really nice to have friends when you get in over your head. My advice, keep it simple cross country is the wrong place to need a part that comes from Europe. Now I am going to contradict myself, high voltage AC system or BLDC will give you the most bang for your buck because of the low losses involved with the lower current. Cannot get much more American than an old Mustang or Corvette. Buy two of everything just in case something blows up.
wow if this isn’t an ADD post I don’t know what is, but I think it will make since here for some reason.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

*Re: good luck*



Nathan219 said:


> Now I am going to contradict myself, high voltage AC system or BLDC will give you the most bang for your buck because of the low losses involved with the lower current.


Actually considering the expense of those systems you'll get the worst bang for the buck, and waste money on a motor and controller that could be better spent on batteries.
Regarding some of the suggestions, I think some of you might be missing the point that Ben wants to build another car. He certainly could visit others along the way and incorporate that into the film, but I think he wants to build a car, so just a tour of existing EV's sort of misses the point.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

BenNelson said:


> ...For this project, they really want to do something "All-American" - whatever exactly that means - it's a little different to every person I think...


As a person who has pretty much dedicated his whole life to custom vehicles, and American style hot rods in particular, I can give a little insight into that.

Ideally, you want something from 1972 or older. Otherwise a Corvette, Camaro, or Mustang, if it's newer than '72. Also, for your intended purpose, stick to the most popular models, preferrably something that has some type of performance image and history.

If you do this, everyone will identify the car as "All-American". Most people will connect with it, from hot rodders, to tuners, to non-car-guy types who just remember/or have seen seen images of "the good old days", to racers, etc. Plus, you're talking about taking the hot rod/classic iconic Route 66. That backdrop, is best suited for a classic vehicle.

What you're planning is really a business venture, not just a simple tour across the country in an electric vehicle. It may be a short-lived one, but it entails all the challenges of a business venture. You have to coordinate a lot of aspects, and bring them together seamlessly, into a final product. (Funding, design, development, logistics, market research, P.R., etc.)


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## valerun (Nov 12, 2010)

*Re: good luck*



JRP3 said:


> Actually considering the expense of those systems you'll get the worst bang for the buck, and waste money on a motor and controller that could be better spent on batteries.
> Regarding some of the suggestions, I think some of you might be missing the point that Ben wants to build another car. He certainly could visit others along the way and incorporate that into the film, but I think he wants to build a car, so just a tour of existing EV's sort of misses the point.


Well, yes, ok, maybe it's a different project but I was hoping that it could have a bit more impact than one more EV built (however awesome of a car that would be...). Thinking bigger picture here...

just my 2 cents


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## valerun (Nov 12, 2010)

toddshotrods said:


> As a person who has pretty much dedicated his whole life to custom vehicles, and American style hot rods in particular, I can give a little insight into that.
> 
> Ideally, you want something from 1972 or older. Otherwise a Corvette, Camaro, or Mustang, if it's newer than '72. Also, for your intended purpose, stick to the most popular models, preferrably something that has some type of performance image and history.
> 
> ...


well said. Only comment I would have is that be extra-careful to not reduce the performance relative to gas donor - at least in the 'mainstream' speed range, i.e. 0-70mph. Which can be hard to do if you pick a Corvette....


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

*Re: good luck*



JRP3 said:


> Regarding some of the suggestions, I think some of you might be missing the point that Ben wants to build another car. He certainly could visit others along the way and incorporate that into the film, but I think he wants to build a car, so just a tour of existing EV's sort of misses the point.


Maybe he could tour or meet up with other clubs or EV owners along the way. If nothing else, they could help in knowing where to charge and you could get some nice rolling footage of several EVs cruising behind the star vehicle of the documentary (each escort would cruise for as long as they can, then head for home while Ben and his team keeps going). It could be a more powerful image that way because it shows that not only was Ben and his team able to pull this off, but it shines the light on others that have been doing it for years, and further tears down the myth that the elecrtric car is impractical or otherwise not good enough. 

That could be making a big production of it however, and I don't know if thats what Ben is after.

But I agree it may be premature to think about this, since (well first of all, its his baby, not mine) he still needs to decide on much more basic things first.


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## DavidDymaxion (Dec 1, 2008)

I think the build would be a great part of the movie, so my personal vote would be for building rather than buying. Another neat thought is being filmed by "outsiders" and professionals. We converters get excited about things like cable crimps, but the film crew will likely pick up on other interesting aspects in addition. For instance, I find my videos tend to be nearly 100% the car, and people ask me "Where are the people?"

Widely announce the route, and I bet EVers will gladly meet as the car goes through their areas. Another thought is to try to intersect something like the EVs on the Salt Flats, a NEDRA event, or a green energy fair.

EVers could be a resource, too. Set up a twitter network and ask "Anyone near Tucson have an xxx?" if something breaks.


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## dtbaker (Jan 5, 2008)

gottdi said:


> Thanks Dan for the great idea. Time to push this idea this direction. I think its a great idea to do a video.


How about combining the ideas into a 'relay' where we research a route across the country by LINKING diy evs within their home range wherever possible and passing a battery like a torch?! It would be a cool way for EVers to get to know each other, and a side-product would be a countrywide 'registry' of EVs that are on the road.

The film crew could just follow along.  

If there were some stretches too long to connect in one drive, the hope would be the local EVer would be willing to take a multi-day camp-to-camp trip to get to the next EVer.


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## gte718p (Jul 30, 2009)

I don't think you even have to be old to be classic American

Something like his would work nicely
http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showthread.php/electric-camaro-26006.html

It's a good build. I see several hundred pounds I could take out of the body. A good set of 200-400 amphour lithiums and you would have a long range electric. You could even pull off high performance for short sprints.

On second thought the route logistics are the hard part. The people and experiences are what will make a compelling documentary. The build while cool to us would be lost on 90% of people. 
Just buy/ borrow/ steal a tesla. You could still have a great story without the headaches of a conversion especially on build on a short time frame.


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## dtbaker (Jan 5, 2008)

if you had to pick a single car to build... I'd go with a mid-sixties Mustang! Not too big, great manual tranny, not too expensive, room for lots of batteries...


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Aerodynamics are paramount in getting the most range, which pretty much eliminates old muscle cars, plus finding a cheap classic muscle car in good shape is about impossible. Gen 3 Trans Am with aero package may have the best cd of any production muscle car but my personal preference would be a Gen 4 which I think could achieve similar numbers with some minor work. Either way they both meet the criteria of good aero and recognizable "modern classic" American muscle but are new enough to be had cheaply.


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## BenNelson (Jul 27, 2007)

I'd say that at HIGH SPEEDS aerodynamics are most important.

Because an electric car has a limited range compared to gas, there is only so far we could go in a day - whether that is driving for one hour, or two or four.

So, there's really no motivation to drive fast. (That's not to say that I don't want a vehicle that CAN'T go fast....)

I could see us taking the back roads across America. The car doesn't need to be the world's most aerodynamic - just not a brick!

I was looking at an '86 Mercury Capri the other day. It was a fastback two door. The nose was pretty low to the ground. Looked pretty aerodynamic to start with. Add a grill-block, maybe a front n' under air dam or smooth underbelly, and it would improve the aerodynamics without anything as extreme as a boat-tail.


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## BenNelson (Jul 27, 2007)

Ah yes, also AC vs DC is still up in the air.

I like DC because I have done it before and really understand it. AC has regen and some other nice features (no brushes!)

I know a couple of guys who might be able to build either AC OR DC controllers. My friend Tom put an AC drive from an electric trolley into his Dodge Neon. We might be able to find another one of those for not too much money. Yes, it's already built, but would still have to be modified for our application.

If DC, I think a 500 amp 144V Open ReVolt controller would be the way to go.
I do like the idea of just a BIG DC forklift motor going to a rear-wheel drive car...

For the road trip, I would LOVE to meet with other EVers on the way, have us ride together, parade around. It would be great fun.

For some sort of an "EV Relay", that would be cool too, it's just not this project.

This whole thing is NOT a business venture in terms of that we are not trying to sell cars or anything like that, but heck ya, it's a big production trying to get everything lined up. It's a LOT of work to make a project like this. That's what's going to make it or break it, all those devils in the details.

I think we will have a couple of smart-phones, GPS, and be Twittering the whole way!


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Unless you intend to do most of your travel under 40 mph or so aerodynamics are important if you want to get the most range from your pack. People will be a lot more impressed if you can get 100 miles at 55mph than if you get 100 miles at 35mph. Choosing the right vehicle with good aero is like getting free extra range.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

A Capri/Mustang might be a decent choice, don't know the cd off hand, might be harder to fit enough cells.


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## BenNelson (Jul 27, 2007)

Anyone have a link to a list of cars ranked by their co-efficient of drag?

Obviously, a lighter car is better than a heavier car. And a streamlined one is better than a boxy one.

I don't think anyone want's to see a classic car "wrecked" by unusual aerodynamic modifications.

In my real-world electric car experience, when the EV is parked on display, it really isn't any more impressive than any gas car. A Gas car is just as quiet as an electric, when it's just parked there!

Telling someone that a car gets 20 or 100 or 300 miles per charge doesn't usually get much of a reaction either.

The one thing that people really pay attention to is for an EV is how it moves, and how quiet it is.

There have been several times that I have taken someone for a ride in my Metro for the first time. What I would do is just put the car in low gear, and accelerate fast. Top speed in second isn't that high, but it gets there fast! Without any engine noise or revving, the acceleration ALWAYS catches them off-guard.

Even a 72V system just about leaps off the line. People usually say something like "Wow, I thought it would have accelerated like a golf cart, not like THAT!".

They really don't care how FAR the car can go on a charge. You can tell them a number, but it doesn't really mean anything. (One time, a guy told me, "An EV wouldn't work for me, I have to drive 300 miles a day." Where the heck does that guy work!? Time for a new job!) No matter how far an EV can go per charge, there's always going to be somebody who thinks it's not enough!

To really impress the Average Joe, you need a little performance - leap off the line, burn a little rubber, or show off the torque!


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Automobile_drag_coefficient

I thought you'd never ask!


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

BenNelson said:


> They really don't care how FAR the car can go on a charge. You can tell them a number, but it doesn't really mean anything.


The most frequently asked question about an EV is "how much does it cost", followed by "how far can it go" and the biggest shortcoming to EV's in the eyes of the general public is the range. Just about every EV article targeted to the general public talks about cost and range. The most common question I get about my EV's, even the AMPhibian, is "how far does it go?"


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## BenNelson (Jul 27, 2007)

Hmmmm.... Pontiac Firebird Transam has the same CD as a Honda CRX HF!

Both of which beat a Tesla Roadster

An 80's Firebird with some pizza pan rims is sounding not so bad!


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

JRP3 said:


> The most frequently asked question about an EV is "how much does it cost", followed by "how far can it go" and the biggest shortcoming to EV's in the eyes of the general public is the range. Just about every EV article targeted to the general public talks about cost and range. The most common question I get about my EV's, even the AMPhibian, is "how far does it go?"


The Inhaler has never moved an inch under any thing but Flintstone's (foot) power, and I don't remember having a conversation about it (when introducing the project) that I haven't been asked, "how far will it go?" I gave a couple guys a private welding class tonight and during a tour of the shop, and while showing them the Inhaler, they posed that question... It's because the range issue has been driven into the ground by the media. I can tell them it's a race car, and they still ask how far it will go.





BenNelson said:


> ...An 80's Firebird with some pizza pan rims is sounding not so bad!


That's a good choice. It's well respected, and its good aero has made it a choice for land speed race cars too. You could lower it a tad (batteries will probably take care of that - lol!), add some rubber skirting around the front and sides, land speed discs to the wheels, and have a nice theme to play off - American muscle in race form - instead of the typical aero-egg-shape people think of with green vehicles. Plus, Pontiac is in that "Great American Icon" status now, due to being phased out.


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## Tatsushige (Mar 24, 2011)

BenNelson said:


> Hmmmm.... Pontiac Firebird Transam An 80's Firebird with some pizza pan rims is sounding not so bad!


 
EV KARR ?











Contact Mark's Custom Kits in the US for the Dash


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## Guest (Jun 11, 2011)

Yuck, Can't get my self to even think about liking an 80's Firebird. Get me a 60's instead. A real muscle car. I don't consider this as American or Muscle. 

Pete


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## Guest (Jun 11, 2011)

If you want Muscle and American the go with a real American Muscle car.


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## Tatsushige (Mar 24, 2011)

Loved the car when I was a kid and still love it now in my 40's


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Let's try to keep this thread realistic and on topic. He wants something he can afford to convert and it might as well be efficient. You will not find a classic muscle car in good shape for cheap, and as was mentioned if you start aeromodding it people probably won't appreciate it.


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## piotrsko (Dec 9, 2007)

Read the thread, but have questions which may or may not be answerable.

Can't plan yet because of nebulous budget/time parameters. So this will be a build based on serendipity? "What would Waylan do?" Jack Bauer, in a pinch, good for those left field fixes.

I vote for American stuff: USED GE motor, Chevrolet Detroit iron (might be hard there but easiest to adapt to and most support). Scrounged and adapted with bubble gum, baling wire and lots of thought and wiping of sweaty brows while burning midnight oil.....

Be advised that in the great out West, places can be as far as 400 miles apart with nothing in between.

Are you done yet??


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## BenNelson (Jul 27, 2007)

Yep, hard to plan while there are still a few variables up in the air.

That's what I need to get nailed down next. The two biggest are time and money. Given unlimited of each, ANYTHING is possible.

With not a lot of each, we will use a lot of duct tape and bailing wire.

Hopefully, this project will be somewhere in between!


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## ev_nred (Sep 23, 2009)

dtbaker said:


> if you had to pick a single car to build... I'd go with a mid-sixties Mustang! Not too big, great manual tranny, not too expensive, room for lots of batteries...


I would do a mustang as well, but with a six speed overdrive tranmisson


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## EVfun (Mar 14, 2010)

Electric cars really don't need all the gears. You could just as well stick with a stock 3 speed if it will handle the torque.


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## jeffb (May 26, 2009)

How about a 65-69 Corvair?

It's fairly aerodynamic compared to a lot of '60s cars, it's got history (Chevy's Electrovair), you can get them cheap, and it has just that little touch of anti-establishment attitude.


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## valerun (Nov 12, 2010)

JRP3 said:


> The most frequently asked question about an EV is "how much does it cost", followed by "how far can it go" and the biggest shortcoming to EV's in the eyes of the general public is the range. Just about every EV article targeted to the general public talks about cost and range. The most common question I get about my EV's, even the AMPhibian, is "how far does it go?"


Agree. when we did our display on Maker Faire here in Bay Area just a couple of weeks ago, top 3 questions were:
1. What's the range?
2. How much it cost you to do it?
3. Is it much heavier now?

That said, all these matter when you *talk* to people about it. When you have them in your car for a *ride*, acceleration is all that matters.

One more point: people really like looking at shiny surfaces and glass displays. We had transparent polycarbonate covers on everything we could put them on - battery boxes, charger, etc. People loved that. I was even thinking of cutting out a part of the hood and making a polycarb insert. After all, Ferraris and Lambos do it to show off their engines, why can't we? ;-)

V


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## Tatsushige (Mar 24, 2011)

piotrsko said:


> Be advised that in the great out West, places can be as far as 400 miles apart with nothing in between.


 
Well you will need over 60Kw of batteries to get that distance ... from my calculations and my project. .. I’m using about 67Kw at the moment in the design, but still trying to work out if I can use more .. I would like about 72Kw.

29Kw of Batteries will give about 
• Range @ 120 km/h (74 mp/h) : 140 km (86 Miles)
• Range @ 80 km/h (49 mp/h) : 230 km (142 Miles)

Going from a EV site I was reading.


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## BenNelson (Jul 27, 2007)

The planned route will have to account for mountains, wide open distances (the great, wide West...) and other challenges.


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## Tatsushige (Mar 24, 2011)

BenNelson said:


> The planned route will have to account for mountains, wide open distances (the great, wide West...) and other challenges.


 
In that case you may need to tow a Push trailer ...











You can build your own or have one built

http://www.emavcompany.com/


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## Tatsushige (Mar 24, 2011)

Toss the gears and go direct drive ... have the diff at the right gear ratio to the motor and you will get a high top speed.


Just take a look at Commuter Cars "Tango" .. It has a top speed of 150 mph (240 km/h) and a 0 to 60 in 4 seconds .. Just do not tell the Tesla Worshipers on the forum!


For the Push Trailer if you use a heavy Yank Tank as your EV, you will best use a 30Kw or more Genset for the push trailer. I'm looking at something like this with a small Toyota iQ engine running it for long trips, will be able to carry other items also.


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## Tatsushige (Mar 24, 2011)

ev_nred said:


> tesla is going to be thought as the car that started the electric performance car.


cough, splutter, choke .. 

Wrightspeed X1
0-60 mph in 2.9 seconds
Standing quarter mile 11.6 seconds
Top Speed 104 mph

Tesla
0-60 mph in 3.9 seconds
Standing quarter mile 12.75 seconds
Top Speed 125 mph

*Winner in Performance is* 
Japan's Ellica
0-62 mph in 4 seconds
No Information on 1/4 mile
Top Speed 230 mph (2004)


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

Can we maybe keep this on topic?


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## valerun (Nov 12, 2010)

I think the range extender for this project is exactly what you *DO NOT WANT TO DO*! This will only confirm everybody's belief that EVs are a joke. And in the places you will go (mid-America) people WILL have a standing belief that EVs are a joke. Don't feed it.

Take a look at the very well publicized Tesla Roadster ride from LA to Chicago this last winter - do you think they used a range extender? Some PR message that would have been LOL... http://webarchive.teslamotors.com/roadtrip/


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## piotrsko (Dec 9, 2007)

O.K. people: back to the thread. I know you all can focus for a *few *moments.

I suppose with all the funding and vehicle questions being un-decided, the task currently would be to decide the route; which would then provide some rough vehicle parameters like battery size, motor, required vehicle efficiency.

For example, it would not be wise to travel US 70 west of Denver without a 30 mile extension cord.


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

Ok, I've removed an off topic tangent along with a few related replies in the hope to get back to the original discussion.
The thread is now unlocked again, so please keep to the original poster's topic.

Ben, if you're still watching, you have the floor (again)


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## BenNelson (Jul 27, 2007)

Well,

I did get an e-mail from a friend this morning....

It was about the AC drive that he has. He got one off E-bay that is the same model as a friend of mine is currently using.

That one is in a Dodge Neon running 300V AC (on lead-acid batteries!). This is the "new controller". I hadn't seen the Neon run since the new controller got put in. I saw Tom yesterday, as he was doing a little work on his Neon. When he left, he did put enough power through to slip the tires. Not a true "burning rubber", but not bad either....

So, my other friend, Tim, bought one of these AC controllers from the same guy on E-bay, but has decided that he would rather invest his time and money in some eco-renovations to his house. Which means I could BUY that AC drive from him for about $800. I'm told it's a 75 HP drive.

For maximum efficiency, (and regen to boot) an existing AC drive would be great. Supposedly, this thing came out of a subway train. It would plug right into a computer. Wouldn't be hard to find a used laptop or touchscreen cpu and build it into the dashboard.

One downside to an AC drive like this - it isn't small - it's about 3 feet long, 2 feet tall and 8 inches thick. It's wouldn't take much modification at all to run a car, but it's a bit bulky!


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

valerun said:


> I think the range extender for this project is exactly what you *DO NOT WANT TO DO*! This will only confirm everybody's belief that EVs are a joke. And in the places you will go (mid-America) people WILL have a standing belief that EVs are a joke. Don't feed it.
> 
> Take a look at the very well publicized Tesla Roadster ride from LA to Chicago this last winter - do you think they used a range extender? Some PR message that would have been LOL... http://webarchive.teslamotors.com/roadtrip/


Exactly. Plus if you plan the route correctly, say I90 in the north or near to it, or I10 in the south, or near to it, I'd bet you'd never be more than 100 miles between plugs, probably less. Camp grounds, hotel/motels, sympathetic businesses, and fellow EVer's should give plenty of outlets with proper planning.


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

Budget permitting, I feel 100+ miles per charge is not unreasonable with lithium since I've done it with my car and I don't even have regen. Once you know the limits of the car, it comes down to planning the route withinn the vehicle's limits. I have a towing hitch for my car in case I ever get stranded, but so far I never had to use it.

Ben, Aside from the size of that controller, I have to wonder about the weight is too. Are you able to find a motor that can match it (and still be small and light enough)?

If so, I might be tempted to suggest modifying the controller or maybe even move it to a smaller box depending on how large the internal parts are. Depends on how comfortable you and your team are with modding like that.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

I would point out that while regen would be nice if you can get it cheaply it really won't do much for you in long distance steady state driving. Jack Rickard has shown that with mild hills, normal cruising with some stop and go, good driving technique gets you almost the same efficiency with and without regen. You also don't get the wheel spinning low end torque that comes with a series DC motor.


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## valerun (Nov 12, 2010)

JRP3 said:


> I would point out that while regen would be nice if you can get it cheaply it really won't do much for you in long distance steady state driving. Jack Rickard has shown that with mild hills, normal cruising with some stop and go, good driving technique gets you almost the same efficiency with and without regen. You also don't get the wheel spinning low end torque that comes with a series DC motor.


Exactly! PLease don't build an American muscle car with a 75hp motor. Please?..

V


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

Good point. For stop and go traffic its nice but for mostly highway and long distance, the advantage is moot. My long distance drive didn't have many times touching the brakes and I netted 100 miles at 76% DOD.

BTW, I wish I had 75Hp


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## BenNelson (Jul 27, 2007)

valerun said:


> Exactly! PLease don't build an American muscle car with a 75hp motor. Please?..
> 
> V


Have you seen what a 75 hp motor can do?
My friend's Neon can slip the wheels with a 25 hp motor. The big issue would be finding a 75 hp motor that would fit in the car and not weigh it down too much.

I don't know about "repacking" that AC controller. Usually there isn't a whole lot of spare room inside things like that. I'm not sure of the weight either, but I could find out. That's one of those things that would have to be figured out - would a home-built AC drive weigh less and be smaller than a commercial one? Perhaps. 

I LOVE the torque you can get from DC. If the forklift motor in my Geo Metro was in a rear-wheel drive car with a 1000 amp 144V controller, I think it would do some pretty impressive starts....


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

It also depends if the HP rating is continuous or peak.


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## piotrsko (Dec 9, 2007)

BenNelson said:


> Well,
> 
> One downside to an AC drive like this - it isn't small - it's about 3 feet long, 2 feet tall and 8 inches thick. It's wouldn't take much modification at all to run a car, but it's a bit bulky!



sounds to me like it is the same size as the existing ice fuel tank. (or at least full size GM)


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## valerun (Nov 12, 2010)

BenNelson said:


> Have you seen what a 75 hp motor can do?
> My friend's Neon can slip the wheels with a 25 hp motor. The big issue would be finding a 75 hp motor that would fit in the car and not weigh it down too much.
> 
> I don't know about "repacking" that AC controller. Usually there isn't a whole lot of spare room inside things like that. I'm not sure of the weight either, but I could find out. That's one of those things that would have to be figured out - would a home-built AC drive weigh less and be smaller than a commercial one? Perhaps.
> ...


I assumed 75hp is a peak rating. If this is nominal - by all means! ;-)

If it's peak, then spinning wheels in the first gear (or maybe second in the light car) is all it will be able to do I think.

1000A geared down through the tranny can do some fun stuff ;-) Make sure all your drivetrain components are rated for that torque, though. I just had to replace a rear diff in my car (1000A Soliton1 on 11" Kostov 250V - stripped entire ring worth of teeth...)

V


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

What rear end are you running? Jack Rickard has suggested reducing the throttle ramp rate to take the instant shock off the drive line components.


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## mikepdx (Mar 28, 2010)

Cd is only half the equation! Cd times Area = CdA, known as Drag Area, is what matters. Suppose something as slippery as a Prius was the size of a house, that's going push lots more air out of the way, right? Here's a drag area chart: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Automobile_drag_coefficient#Drag_area
3.95 sq ft (0.367 m2)	1996 GM EV1
6.24 sq ft (0.580 m2)	2004 Toyota Prius
6.27 sq ft (0.583 m2)	1992 Chevrolet Corvette ---what's more American than a Vette?

--Mike

PS: I just took a road trip between Portland and Utah in a 2010 Prius on I-84, got 48 mpg at 70-75 mph. Aerodynamics is everything.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Good point, and the C4 Vettes, '84-'96 can probably be found fairly cheaply as they are the least popular.


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## mikepdx (Mar 28, 2010)

Finding a Vette with a stick will be harder. You certainly don't want to waste energy in an automatic. Unless of course you put the motor where the automatic used to be.....


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

I'd think a Vette, being a sports car, is more likely to have a manual than most. But with a lockup TC an auto may not have significant losses in long range steady state driving.


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