# [EVDL] TS LFP purchase



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Wasn't there another gentleman working a deal on this list looking at an
impending order......

Wish I was ready to order (and knew what I wanted  (I'm in Austin).

Mike





> Willie McKemie-3 wrote:
> >
> > I've about decided to buy a TS LFP pack of about 11,000 ah. I think
> > I've identified a reliable vendor. The price for 11K ah is about
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

If you want performance don't go with the TS cells. You will be very 
disappointed.



> txhokie4life wrote:
> 
> >
> > Wasn't there another gentleman working a deal on this list looking
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Roger Heuckeroth wrote:
> > If you want performance don't go with the TS cells. You will be very
> > disappointed.
> 
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

>


> Roger Heuckeroth wrote:
> >> If you want performance don't go with the TS cells. You will be very
> >> disappointed.
> >
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Range is my primary interest. I'm shooting for 120-144v of 260ah. 
> I figure that will give me up to about 750 battery amps. From my 
> very limited experience with 96v of GC batteries that rarely gets 
> above 100 amps, that seems sufficient. Or more than sufficient. If 
> I'm wrong, somebody set me straight.

I've seen 3C as the discharge limit for a lot of LiFePO4 from China, 
but I wonder if TS is even up to the level of their countrymen. They 
just don't appear to expend the energy to do proper QA/QC. China has 
been our source for products that have high failure rates, but the 
same was true of Japan more than half a century ago, and now they are 
usually better than the US in that regard, but who wants to wait on 
China to catch up on their own - currently, they need outside quality 
management for that.


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

The batteries I believe you are referring to are LCP, not LFP. They 
consist of two mismatched ah strings connected in an unusual way that 
may be causing problems. They are also several years old and 
manufactured to an old spec that was known to have problems with sag. 
They do not have any relevance to the cells here.

..
Norm
http://www.wacparts.com

Peter VanDerWal wrote:
>>


> Roger Heuckeroth wrote:
> >>
> >>> If you want performance don't go with the TS cells. You will be very
> >>> disappointed.
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

As long as you don't climb any hills...



> Willie McKemie wrote:
> 
> > On Wed, Jul 23, 2008 at 02:12:59PM -0400, Roger Heuckeroth wrote:
> >> If you want performance don't go with the TS cells. You will be very
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

According to TS web site for the TS-LFP260AHA cell, the recommended 
discharge rate is 0.5C with a max of 2C. You could get 3C, but only 
for short periods with quite a voltage drop. All that being said, if 
his primary interest is range, he should be OK with the TS cells if 
they meet their own specs. Although, TS as a company has screwed a 
lot of people in our group. Beware all sales are final, no refunds or 
exchanges seams to be their corporate philosophy.



> [email protected] wrote:
> 
> >> Range is my primary interest. I'm shooting for 120-144v of 260ah.
> >> I figure that will give me up to about 750 battery amps. From my
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

I was wondering if there is anyone here on this list who has actual 
first hand real world scientific test data or EV experience with TS LFP 
cells >= 100AH. Every time they are mentioned I see people jump up and 
state as fact that the TS batteries are not going to work for people 
(seemingly regardless of the requirements or application being 
discussed), but they give no first hand facts to back up those 
statements, and in fact when I search back in the archives the same 
people who can state with certainty now that the batteries are not going 
to work for a particular application are the same ones that not long ago 
were asking others for information about them. Eventually they just 
start repeating what they have been told and it evolves into fact.

I would love to hear more from people who are actually using these 
batteries (LFP, not LCP) in their EV's, and whether or not they are 
performing as expected, including specs for the ah rating of the cells 
they have, what their expectations were, what currents they draw from 
them, and issues they may or may not have with them. That to me is far 
more useful than regurgitated blanket negative comments from people who 
have never seen a TS cell. I have no way of knowing how much of that 
type of stuff is based on fact somewhere in the murky past, and how much 
of it is just personal opinion about the state of the world economy and 
annoyance with international trade.

I have been researching and researching for several weeks now to find 
LFP batteries that are within any possibility of my budget, and these 
cells may very well be complete garbage but I can't find much in the way 
of real world reports from real actual users - only comments from people 
who appear to have never seen a TS cell in person but are now experts on 
them. I have only been able to find reports from two actual users of TS 
LFP batteries in their vehicles - one in Canada and one in Australia, 
and they both reported good results.

If you have first hand experience good or bad with TS or the TS LFP 
cells, or have actually tested these batteries in your EV and would like 
to share your thoughts then please contact me off list. I want to make 
an informed purchase. If you have just heard about someone else's bad 
experience or have never actually used or thoroughly and scientifically 
tested these cells, please go on with your day. Thanks.

..
Norm
http://www.wacparts.com



> Willie McKemie wrote:
> > I've about decided to buy a TS LFP pack of about 11,000 ah. I think
> > I've identified a reliable vendor. The price for 11K ah is about
> > $1.72/ah exclusive of shipping, hardware, customs, BMS, etc. Another
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Norm Woodward wrote:
> 
> The batteries I believe you are referring to are LCP, not LFP. They 
> consist of two mismatched ah strings connected in an unusual way that 
> may be causing problems. They are also several years old and 
> manufactured to an old spec that was known to have problems with sag. 
> They do not have any relevance to the cells here.
> 
> ..
> Norm
> http://www.wacparts.com
> 
> Peter VanDerWal wrote:
>>>


> Roger Heuckeroth wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> If you want performance don't go with the TS cells. You will be very
> >>>> disappointed.
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

290Ah pack of LCP is I believe in Bill Dennis' car - 200Ah
and 90Ah strings in parallel.

This arrangement really has no more issues than if cells would
be identical capacity, say, 150Ah and 150Ah (if paralleled at the ends
of the string).



> Roger Heuckeroth wrote:
> > According to TS web site for the TS-LFP260AHA cell, the recommended
> > discharge rate is 0.5C with a max of 2C. You could get 3C, but only
> > for short periods with quite a voltage drop.
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> may survive OK. Of course they won't tell you that voltage sag will be
> like down to 1V/cell, esp. when cold and all your hardware will
> cease working for under-voltage reason, but that's now *your hardware*
> problem, not TS' problem (as far as they're concerned). *Cells* are OK,
> surviving, that's what they sell and care about. Not usability of them.

As far as TS is concerned ANY problem you have is YOUR problem, even if it
IS related to the batteries.
The batteries don't do what TS says they will do? That's your problem. 
Batteries sag to much? That's your problem. Batteries catch on fire? 
That's your problem. Batteries don't produce ANY voltage? That's your
problem.

Gotta love that kind of attitude.

But, I guess if you can afford to take the gamble...that's your problem. ;-)




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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Elite Power Solutions has been working on their web site and it now 
includes prices. They also claim to have BMS & Chargers. The BMS 
actually looks kinda cool. BUT, there's no indication of where they 
actually are other than a Phoenix area code and they only sell the 40, 
60, 90 or 160Ah batteries and they're $1.80/Ah. They do claim they offer 
a one year warranty, though.

http://elitepowersolutions.com/products/index.php?cPath=16

--Rick



> Stephen West wrote:
> > $1.72 is a bit steep. You can buy them here http://bev.com.au/Azure.htm for
> > AU$1.50/Ah including GST (10% Australian sales tax). I don't know if the
> > Blade guys export to the US, but if they do then that works out to
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

The BMS From thundersky is really a battery monitoring system not a
management system I would not use it. I have used both their 200AH and
260AH cells in my Rav 4 conversions and they work great I have no complaints
so far. I will be using the BMS that Rod Dilkes at EV Power makes on the
Rav 4 we are currently working on.

Dave




> Rick Beebe wrote:
> >
> > Elite Power Solutions has been working on their web site and it now
> > includes prices. They also claim to have BMS & Chargers. The BMS
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Norm,
I asked Scott Tanner about his motorcycle:
<http://evalbum.com/1877>
He said that he hasn't ridden it much yet so he doesn't know about the
batteries. He got them from electricmotorsport.com who won't tell me how
much shipping charges actually cost. The shopping cart says $150
regardless of what's in your shopping cart. I'm not itching to buy one
cell for $100 and pay $150 for shipping just to try it out.
Right now LFPs have the aura of a hipster. i.e. "if you don't know, we
don't want to tell you" .. "if you have to ask, you don't want to know..."
-
Martin



> Norm Woodward wrote:
> > I was wondering if there is anyone here on this list who has actual
> > first hand real world scientific test data or EV experience with TS LFP
> > cells >= 100AH. Every time they are mentioned I see people jump up and
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Is anyone else interested in ordering a couple cells to test (a group
buy) I'll run it, we can split shipping cost. The shipping is $98
seemingly regardless of order size (maybe.. I'll check) I'll repackage
and reship.
Please email me directly.
-
Martin



> Rick Beebe wrote:
> > Elite Power Solutions has been working on their web site and it now
> > includes prices. They also claim to have BMS & Chargers. The BMS
> > actually looks kinda cool. BUT, there's no indication of where they
> ...


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