# Why convert now that Leafs are so cheap?



## dcb (Dec 5, 2009)

If you just want a commuter with plenty of creature comforts and decent range and decent acceleration, for a decent price, it is hard to argue with a second hand leaf (or perhaps another model EV).

That is why most conversions these days are centered on more "interesting" cars, like a favorite old sports car or something niche. It is hard to get motivated to put the time and money into converting a civic when it will cost lots more for the same performance and need lots of time to complete. If only the used EV motorcycle market were like the leaf...


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## pgt400 (Jul 12, 2008)

For bikes the sales numbers aren't there....6K 3 year Leased Leafs coming off every month. Also, a bike is so much less complicated to convert...can be done in a week. I just put 11 Leaf modules in my bike to replace CALBS...better performance, less weight, less money!


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## dcb (Dec 5, 2009)

Oh it is easy enough to convert. Chain/belt vs perfectly machined adapter plate/coupler/??? is a big bonus for DIY too. But it is still several grand plus time, would be nice to see a used 5kwh bike for $4k with built in 3kw j1772/chademo like the leaf. Just wishful thinking


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## dcb (Dec 5, 2009)

I mean this is what $4k gets you in a bike, 
http://milwaukee.craigslist.org/mcy/5111758529.html

13 hp, 0-60 in 16 seconds, 60mph top speed, 3kwh, no j1772 :/ Might as well have pedals on it (not necessarily a bad idea) Motorcycles are definitely ripe for DIY still though.


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## pgt400 (Jul 12, 2008)

I got about 4K in mine. 0-60, low 6 seconds. The new Zero SR is nice....but 18K? No way. Brammo needs to ditch the 6 speed jenner..er I mean tranny.


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## dougingraham (Jul 26, 2011)

The only reason I can see to buy a leaf is to reuse the components in a conversion. I know some people like the appearance of the Leaf but I don't. I am planning my next conversion and if it works out that I can use the motor/inverter I may buy a leaf just to reuse the components.

But if you can tolerate the appearance then it is a great little car with all the comforts and a tremendous bargain used at under $10k.


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## dcb (Dec 5, 2009)

form follows function, midsized car, plenty of seating and cargo space. http://www.caranddriver.com/feature...omparison-test-fifth-place-nissan-leaf-page-2

not a high speed long range vehicle, so a bit boxy isn't going to cost as much.

And who really cares what it looks like?!? That is just, effeminate.


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## pgt400 (Jul 12, 2008)

Ha! put a spoiler on it and/or paint your favorite color! Its odd looking (especially the back) I'll agree...but not that bad! Current day tech makes me over look it. Most do conversions on 15+ year old cars.


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## favguy (May 2, 2008)

The Leaf is a brilliant car all round, except for its appalling looks. Personally I see a lightly body damaged salvage leaf as currently the best complete EV kit going. Just transfer the whole lot into an interesting/classic car of your choice.  Only other parts you'll need to source are custom made hybrid drive shafts to suit your car. 

I think the individual new EV component sellers are going to be in for a very hard time soon as more and more heavily depreciated and salvage damaged 3-5 year old Leafs/e-Golfs/e-Ups/BMW i3/Kia Soul's etc. hit the market in spades... offering complete kits in a can at less than the cost of a decent battery alone if buying new parts... I can't wait, I'm considering interesting cars to use as my next glider right now


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## dcb (Dec 5, 2009)

keep in mind that even the nismo leaf was limited by the 107hp drivetrain. Though they did shave 1300 lbs and probably some drag. I expect the PM motor has a lot to do with those limitations (and the battery pack).


http://www.wired.com/2012/02/nissan-leaf-rc-driven/


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## pgt400 (Jul 12, 2008)

The Leaf's looks HAD to be intentional! I agree, the best EV component's now come from the salvage yard....for less money. And this is only going to get better.


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## dcb (Dec 5, 2009)

I guess my point is that if even if team nismo and their budget and staff left the driveline alone, then any conversion using it will be similiarly 107hp limited. Even salvaged they are leafs are going for $6k with a useable driveline.
can confirm, these things understeer like mad. All front end damaged.
http://www.autobidmaster.com/carfinder-online-auto-auctions/salvage-cars/nissan/leaf/

eO PPO3 weighs 600 lbs more, but has a 50kwh pack (leaf is 24kwh) and 1367 hp on tap.

Is it worth a lot of time to save $3k? I don't know of anyone who has sorted out the miles of wiring yet. I could see it if I got the leaf for <$3k maybe to convert a beater. But the drive-line is definitely stuck in the "commuter" category. Which is fine, absolutely fine, but tesla has set the bar pretty high in the "performance" category. 

So set your leaf/imev/golf/etc conversion expectations accordingly. The nismo does 0-60 in 6.9 seconds @ 2000 lbs FYI, within spitting distance of a camry. If you can lighten it AND lower the gear ratio you might get somewhere, nismo couldn't though. You could probably push the pack well past 200 amps briefly, but not with that motor.


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## kennybobby (Aug 10, 2012)

Copart has a monopoly on selling salvage and they are in bed with the insurance companies to keep the prices high. There is no good reason for a totalled Leaf to be selling for 6k$, yet it happens every day, and the Teslas are even worse. i keep waiting for the prices to come down to reasonable levels...


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## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

Why convert instead of buying a used Leaf? Almost every car out there is valued at 1/10th of it's original price after 10 years. If your pack makes it the full 10 years, when you go to replace it, it will cost more than the value of the car to replace it, rendering it totaled. The components are mostly proprietary, so they are not much good for anything other than the same year, make and model. When you convert, the car can be worth only its weight in scrap, but the value of all those universal EV components is still there. Universal EV components are assets that have separate value from the worthless chassis. 

Another thing to consider about converting vs buying a used Leaf is that the Leaf is very limited on range, charging speed, top speed, and of course, style.

I know you mentioned a "used" Leaf, but here is something interesting about a "new" Leaf. The difference in annual registration costs between a new Leaf and a conversion with no blue book value here in CA is about $400. $400 is enough to buy enough electricity for the conversion to drive 15,000 miles per year.


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## pgt400 (Jul 12, 2008)

That's true....my plan is to buy a used Leaf SV with ~15K miles for $11K or less. After 3 years or total 50K miles, sell it and HOPE to get $5-6K back. The other choice is a lease, for an SV its ($259x36)+2995 down=$12,319 And you have NOTHING at the end. So to me it makes sense to buy a low miles used Leaf....and have some value after 3 years along with the gas savings $$. There may also be other options for Leaf replacement packs by then? Both Nissan and other?...definitely will be a market.


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## dcb (Dec 5, 2009)

I'm sort of hoping my used leaf has enough usable range till better batteries are cheap enough to bother with. But there is every probability that there will be other options at that point as well, which will drive the resale into the ground. But I'm accustomed to driving things into the ground 

Note, even "universal" ev components get obsolete, like any technology, can't really expect them to hold any real value either. But cheap low maintenance cars was always the promise of EVs. I'm sure someone will reverse engineer a leaf sooner or later, and maybe put it in an AMC pacer for fun


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## pgt400 (Jul 12, 2008)

No doubt there will be a DIY solution to replace aging leaf packs...that and a Hyabusa 1300cc engine conversion!


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## Moltenmetal (Mar 20, 2014)

You Americans are so damned lucky- you can buy or lease a Spark EV new (not available in Canada yet), you can buy a Leaf or Volt for way less than the MSRP here- though the slump in our dollar has made that difference much less of late- and you have a real used market for wrecked EV parts. Here, wrecked EVs and decent priced used ones are as rare as hen's teeth. The nearest one my buddy could find for a decent price was in Ottawa, and given the limited range he had no choice but to pat to trailer it to Toronto.

My conversion parts were way cheaper than I could buy a Leaf for here- and I have a cool car that turns heads and is a total blast to drive. I don't mind the looks of the Leaf that much, but it's no head turner! All I gave up was winter driving, and I like my Prius C in the winter well enough. Oh yeah, and a million years worth of sweat equity, mostly on the restoration rather than the conversion though.


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## pgt400 (Jul 12, 2008)

Hey Molten...beautiful work on the spit fire! Makes me wish I still had my 76' TR7. Looks like you rebuilt the whole car! NICE!


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## dcb (Dec 5, 2009)

I was just thinking a leaf drivetrain would be a nice power upgrade for a spitfire, or an mg. But the weight wouldn't be good. Looks like you have addressed that with a 10kwh pack MM.


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## pgt400 (Jul 12, 2008)

He has a 32s 180ah pack....so 19kwh, just a little short of Leafs 24kwh.


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## prensel (Feb 21, 2010)

So the question is: who is about to step up the plate and design a much better looking GRP body for the Leaf drivetrain/chassis ?
Its like the old kit car days when Beetles got converted to Porsches and Fieros to Ferraris. Why not convert the Leaf to something decent looking ?


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## dimitri (May 16, 2008)

My question is, when buying a cheap used Leaf how do you know what its effective range today and what if it drops like a rock a year down the road?
Is Leaf's battery gauge reliable? Does it have some kind of State of Health data for the battery? Can it be trusted?
Even if you pay 6k for Leaf, but have to buy a new pack within a year, would it still be a good investment?

I assume cheap Leaf doesn't come with any battery warranty, right?

I ask in case of buying it to drive, not for parts.


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## kennybobby (Aug 10, 2012)

Nissan provides an 8-year, 100,000 mile/160,000 km _battery warranty_.

Mitsu changed theirs from 8 to 10 years.


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## favguy (May 2, 2008)

Dimitri,

You make very good points, and I suppose the honest answer is we just don't know how well the batteries will perform as they age. Also we often won't be able to find out if the owner has babied the battery, only slow charging to 80% most of the time, or fast charged everyday...

I suppose if the seller is friendly, and you're a serious buyer and ask nicely, they'll probably agree with letting you drive the car with them for an hour or two to establish the range available.

The car should still come with the battery warranty. I believe the Leaf is for 8 years maintaining at least 70% capacity, although, it's not likely to be honoured if the car it's in is no longer a leaf!!!

Here in the UK, with our reasonably cool climate, high mileage leafs seem to be holding up very well indeed, I've spoken with owners of early Leafs who at 70K or 80K have only seen a very small drop in available range. I'm sure this won't be the case in hotter climes though...


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## dimitri (May 16, 2008)

kennybobby said:


> Nissan provides an 8-year, 100,000 mile/160,000 km _battery warranty_.
> 
> Mitsu changed theirs from 8 to 10 years.


does it guarantee certain range/capacity? prorated each year, etc. ?
anyone successfully claim it based on reduced range, not complete failure?
does it transfer to new owner in OBO sale?


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## kennybobby (Aug 10, 2012)

It does transfer to the owner with the car. 

Warranty does not cover wear and tear, i.e. the normal reduction in capacity that occurs over time and #cycles, but they do replace packs with failed cells and with excessive reduction of capacity. In that regard they guarantee the wear won't exceed (? 80%?) reduction over the warranty period or it will be replaced. 

i'm not sure but have read that Nissan may prorate the replacement somehow. If you come in at 7y11m and your capacity is at 79%, they may not give you a 100% fresh pack for free.

Electric cars, just like every other battery-powered gadget and gizmo you've ever bought, are considered disposable items. Once the batteries are gone it's time to throw it out and get a new one--it's the driving force of electronics for a thriving economy...

No OEM company that builds anything with batteries has any financial interest in keeping old stuff working. But you have to admit that an 8 or 10 year guarantee on an EV battery does help give some peace of mind that you won't have to buy a replacement battery. 

i doubt you can find anyone who has an OEM EV that had to buy a new pack, but i can show you several MiEVs who got free replacements due to a failed cell. The cell voltages can be displayed using the Canion android app and a blueteeth dongle in the OBDii port.


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## Moltenmetal (Mar 20, 2014)

Presume a Leaf us unibody construction and not easy to swap bodies- much less the crash resistance would go to hell in a hand basket as a result of your mods. But there are people here working in getting the proprietary Leaf stuff to work as a de facto conversion kit on wheels, and there is also that brilliant exercise to take advantage of the expensive output stage of any inverter to operate any motor- just lobotomizing all the Canbus crap and driving it directly. So we as a community are taking great strides! I'm proud to be a small part of it. If I'd waited a year I'm sure I'd have a Volt pack in my car...


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## dedlast (Aug 17, 2013)

Leafspy is an android app that can give you a pretty good look behind the curtain of the Leaf. The Pro version will even check and reset the error codes. I have it but my wreck had a bent wheel so I wasn't able to do a lot poking around before I pulled the power and started taking it apart.

B


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## favguy (May 2, 2008)

Moltenmetal,

It wouldn't be safe to cut up a leaf and graft on a kit body as you are quite right that it's a unibody. 

Although there are people reverse engineering the can controls to be able to reuse the motor and controller etc, a complete leaf is already a full kit without needing to do this if the complete Leaf systems are used along with looms, ecu's & instruments. 

I'm currently trying to decide on a suitably interesting donor car, then will be building an entire salvage Leaf into it, (less the body). I'll be documenting it in full with a new build thread on here when it's started.


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## arklan (Dec 10, 2012)

i think theres about 50 leafs in the entirety of australia
no cheap parts for us


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