# Planning VW Beetle conversion



## lowcrawler (Jun 27, 2011)

Still in the extremely initial planning stages. I'll try to follow the format requested here.

I've spend a couple dozen hours reading general information (you know, glancing over the main 'gist' of blogs and forums rather than trying to nail down part numbers.... just becoming acquainted) and watch all of KiwiEV's youtube videos. It seems 'doable' - though my time is limited in the summer which is why I originally was looking for an already-converted or hiring someone to do it for me.
*My skills*
My skill level with a car isn't high. I've replaced my struts before, replaced my supercharger pulley, added a transmission cooler, and done other 'bolt-on' type modifications to my 97 Grand Prix GTP as well as general maintencance - fuel filter, spark plugs, oil....but haven't really touch a wrench to my car for the better part of a decade so to say I'm "out of practice" is an understatement. I tried to do brakes one time and a seized bolt stopped me in my tracks. Also, Transmissions scare me. 
The same goes for welding -- I did it in metals shop in high school 12 years ago, but haven't really touched anything since (though I do have access to a wire-feed welder and oxy/acetylene).
Fabrication? Pretty much complete newbie with metal.
I understand basic electrical concepts like wattage, voltage, amps, etc and know how to wire a house... but 'relays', 'contactors', 'shunts' and other circuit-type ideas are beyond my current knowledge base. I think I've basically learned was a potentiometer and a controler is though already... so that's progress, right? 
Painting isn't my thing. I'd say I'm about as 'skilled' as the KiwiEV guy.

*Range/capabilities*
My main workspace is ~5 miles away, so a 10 mile round trip daily on roads that have a limit of 40mph. If I use the car beyond that (friends houses, airport, actually going to shoots, etc), I'd need something signficantly more beefy. As such, I was hoping to get one of two divergent options...

Either max comfortable speed of ~40mph with a 10-20 mile range... for a very low price (say, 2-3k)

or

Max comfortable speed of ~65mph with a 50+ mile range where the price could go up a little. (say, ~8k)

I do not care how 'quickly' it gets up to speed...

Now, a wrench in the plans... I am in Minnesota, where -20F is a common occurance and -30F isn't unheard of. It's my understanding that affects range quite a bit. (at the very least, it'll need a heater...heh) I'll also need to be able to ride in snow so something lowered to 2 inches off the ground is not an option. (and a vehicle with a limited-slip differential would be awesome!  ) On a good note, things are relatively flat around here.... 

I am kind of a 'all-out' guy so my preference is the 'beefier' of the two above options, but logistics and timelines dictate that if there is a 'bolt-on' kit that'll take me a weekend to throw together for 2k that gives me the first set of capabilities, I'm in and done.  

I'm certainly willing to spend some money to make it easier... but I don't want to be frivolously tossing money out the door given I have an eye on a 2010 prius (50mpg) for <20k with only 8k miles. ... Whatever I do has to pass the 'rationality' test with both me and my wife.

*parts considered*
I'm a wedding photographer by trade (though a computer scientist by training) and I routinely meet clients where my car is the first impression. Thus having a beater 90's car, even though perhaps a better option for conversion (safety features, aerodynamics, etc) isn't really a good option. I need something that is 'cool' or otherwise unique or quirky. Because of this, and things I've read about 'ease of conversion', I've kind of settled on a old-school VW Bug. (which is luckily something I've kind of always wanted anyway for the kitsch factor) If you have other suggestions, let me know -- I'm completely open. (I actually think this is super-cool but getting more information out of e-volks is like pulling teeth -- they refuse to answer anything over email other than sending me their FAQ... bah!)

From what I've read and pulled into a spreadsheet from evalbum ... a 9" motor @ 120 volts is what I need for highway speeds, though it appears 96V might be enough. I was initially looking at the Negain Warp 9 but the conversions I see that in involve a lot of cutting into the back of the bug, so now I'm looking at the D&D ES-31B -- seems to fit well into this conversion. Perhaps this isn't an issue...? The D&D is cheaper. 

I don't want a curtis 1231 controller - I've heard the violin screech and if there are other options, I want to avoid that. Sounds like a synkromotive might be a good option... I dunno...

I need a heater. Don't know what kind or how to do it but driving without defrost is suicide.

Uhm... that's it. 


Suggestions? Help? Thoughts? You'd be my best friend if you just threw out a suggest parts list.... perhaps from your own conversion. 

Some questions I have -- 

Realistically, how many man-hours is this going to take? I've heard everything from '15 days' for an amazing job... to, obviously, years on some that look like trash.

Where can I pick up a VW bug in good shape? I'd prefer a 'super beetle' for the extra space (good, right?) but it seems everything that is in good shape is like 5k+ and everything that is falling apart is $500-1000. I have spent the past few days just poking around on craigslist but nothing seems even close to a good match. What should I look for, and where? I know that having a bad motor would be fine (and would save me money) but would I want one with crappy suspension (ie: do people generally replace the suspension parts to handle the added weight?)?

My biggest concern is mating the motor to the transmission. Honestly, how hard is this? I can muddle my way through all the electrical stuff, but the transmission/motor/mounting stuff has me gunshy.

Thanks in advance for any help you give...


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## Ziggythewiz (May 16, 2010)

I have a middle of the road bug, so can't speak too much to your 2 options. Mine is 120v (el cheapo SLA), curtis 1221C, and ES-31B. 

For the lower end you could do a cheap lead conversion, for the upper you'll need lithium, but would be difficult with your budget. The ES-31B can do what you need, but will need forced air cooling for extended highway usage. I'd recommend going 72 or 96 volts for the cheap road, or 144 for the higher.

As for finding bugs, it's all about location. When i lived in Utah there were lots of good ones around $1200. When I got to Houston and had $$ for the conversion the only decent ones are $2200+. I've heard supers have issues with HW speeds, but not sure on details.

Mating the motor to the transmission is cake if someone else makes your adapter (mine came from e-volks). Some models you have to trim the transmission shaft a little. I spent a couple weeks mounting mine, would have been a couple hours if I had known that.


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## corbin (Apr 6, 2010)

Hey man, definitely check out my build for ideas. See my signature. Granted, mine wasn't cheap...

corbin


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## lowcrawler (Jun 27, 2011)

Corbin - Yours is part of my inspiration to go with the bug - I'd love to get your 'performance' but I really don't need 100 miles. I was hoping I could get the freeway-ability and half your range with SLA.
Plus, your car looks good -- then again, I don't have the painting skills, friends, budget, or metal fab skills/tools you do so I suspect mine'll be but a shadow of your great vehicle.

Ziggy - you mention the ES-31B would do the job but require forced cooling - could that be done with simple air scoops (the faster you go, the more air forced through the motor)? With your ES-31B and 120 V of SLA, what kind of top speed/range are you getting?

Corbin - I notice your Warp 9 doesn't have any additional cooling (in fact, it looks like you put a shroud around it later on).... though I like your idea of 'pre-heating' by blowing your heater air through the motor first (given I'm in MN, I don't want to be wasting any heat... heh)
I also notice you have water cooling on your controller, whereas many (most?) others I've seen do not... And on top of that, you have it in the driving airflow path with fans on it... how hot _is_ that controller getting? Is that typical, or can I expect to be able to roll with air and massive finned heatsinks (perhaps also putting them inline with the heater airflow source?) ? I'd obviously rather avoid any liquids...

Are certain motors more likely to need cooling than others?

Can the motor/controller be too cold (-30F )? It's my understanding almost all electronics work better the cooler they are... so I expect that is true here as well for everything but the batteries?

Anyone with a good primer when it comes to my lack of electrical knowledge outlined in my OP?


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## Yabert (Feb 7, 2010)

lowcrawler said:


> Are certain motors more likely to need cooling than others?


Running a motor to near or over his continuous rating will cause overheating.
So, for the same car, a smaller motor will need more cooling.... if it need!
But the efficiency aslo play a role.



> could that be done with simple air scoops (the faster you go, the more air forced through the motor)?


It's will be more efficient and easy to add a small 12v fan (20-100$). The motor will continuous of cool when the car run slowly.


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## lowcrawler (Jun 27, 2011)

Yabert said:


> The motor will continuous of cool when the car run slowly.


If the car is running slowly, does it need to be cooled?


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## corbin (Apr 6, 2010)

lowcrawler said:


> Corbin - Yours is part of my inspiration to go with the bug - I'd love to get your 'performance' but I really don't need 100 miles. I was hoping I could get the freeway-ability and half your range with SLA.
> Plus, your car looks good -- then again, I don't have the painting skills, friends, budget, or metal fab skills/tools you do so I suspect mine'll be but a shadow of your great vehicle.
> 
> Ziggy - you mention the ES-31B would do the job but require forced cooling - could that be done with simple air scoops (the faster you go, the more air forced through the motor)? With your ES-31B and 120 V of SLA, what kind of top speed/range are you getting?
> ...


The Netgain controller requires water cooling, and even with cooling I found it will get hot on long drives in really hot weather (i.e.: 30 miles, including a steep hill). Other controllers, like Curtis, are designed to be air-cooled and have fins to do it.

The motor -- I wish my motor ran cooler, and maybe some day I will run a blower on it!

corbin


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## cruisin (Jun 3, 2009)

corbin said:


> The Netgain controller requires water cooling, and even with cooling I found it will get hot on long drives in really hot weather (i.e.: 30 miles, including a steep hill). Other controllers, like Curtis, are designed to be air-cooled and have fins to do it.
> 
> The motor -- I wish my motor ran cooler, and maybe some day I will run a blower on it!
> 
> corbin


here is what a Impulse 9 looks like with a blower on it.


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## Ziggythewiz (May 16, 2010)

lowcrawler said:


> Ziggy - you mention the ES-31B would do the job but require forced cooling - could that be done with simple air scoops (the faster you go, the more air forced through the motor)? With your ES-31B and 120 V of SLA, what kind of top speed/range are you getting?


My top speed is 65-70 mph, range of 26 miles running avg 40 mph. Batteries are 10x 12v 125ah (600 lbs).

The reason you need cooling is because to run highway speeds you will be in 3rd or 4th gear with the motor turning relatively slow compared to the power you're dumping into it. In 1st or second you don't need additional cooling because the motor is spinning fast enough for the built in fan to keep up with the amps in. I can run at 45 mph in 2nd without needing extra cooling, but in 3rd it gets really hot and 4th approaches burnout temps. I've rarely left 2nd, but now with the cooling I can leave it in 3rd with no worries.


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## alexcrouse (Mar 16, 2009)

http://www.thunderstruck-ev.com/index.php?dispatch=products.view&product_id=95

This plus as many batteries as you can afford, and you have a beetle that will be *fun*. They make a bigger one, but it can take an S-10 on the highway. A bit more than you need!

Regen doesn't help much on flat ground, but it sure is satisfying being able to engine brake like a gas car.


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## lowcrawler (Jun 27, 2011)

Ziggythewiz said:


> My top speed is 65-70 mph, range of 26 miles running avg 40 mph. Batteries are 10x 12v 125ah (600 lbs).


That's good to know. The 'top speed' sounds about perfect (most of the freeways around here are 60mph limited).

The range is slightly disconcerting (though still nice to know) -- as I was planning (obviously extremely tentatively) to go with 10x12v batteries roughly in the same amounts you have. ... and 26 miles isn't enough. Is there a way to get more out of it?

I've heard higher voltage is more efficient -- would adding 2 additional batteries (144 volts) get disproportionately more range (more than just the 20% additional battery numbers)?

I've heard a larger motor is more efficient -- would going to the warp 9 (impulse - as that seems to fit without cutting) offer more range on the same battery pack than the ES-31B?

I quick look on evalbum again and it looks like no one really gets more than 40 mile range in a bug with lead with one exception: http://evalbum.com/1798

But I can't tell what's up with his system that gives him 70% more range than everyone else.

If I want to be able to make a trip (and back) to someplace that is 21.6 miles away, mostly 60mph highways, is my only option lithium?


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## Ziggythewiz (May 16, 2010)

lowcrawler said:


> If I want to be able to make a trip (and back) to someplace that is 21.6 miles away, mostly 60mph highways, is my only option lithium?


You could do that with lead, but not much more. My batteries are the cheapest you can get, but if you do 20-24 6v GC batts you should be able to do it (18 8v might also do it), though you'll have to upgrade brakes, suspension, and lose the back seat.

It would be best to do lithium though. Adding 1000 extra lbs to a 40 year old car is just asking for problems. Maybe you could build your own controller and charger, and possibly use a forklift motor to save enough cash for lithium.


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## lowcrawler (Jun 27, 2011)

Ziggythewiz said:


> You'll have to upgrade brakes, suspension, and lose the back seat.


I don't mind upgrading the brakes and suspension, but losing the storage area of the back seat (no one would sit back there, but I'd like a place for my dog when the wife is in the car or groceries or my photo gear) is a bummer. I suppose I could probably fabricate some sort of 'carpeted cover' for all the batteries and retain the back area as a storage location, eh? It certainly doesn't actually need to be a 'seat'.



> Adding 1000 extra lbs to a 40 year old car is just asking for problems.


Agreed... however, if the suspension and brakes are upgraded, what is the next thing to 'go wrong'? (honest question -- I've never owned a 'vintage car')



> It would be best to do lithium though.


I did some looking for lithium answers and was suprised there wasn't a lot of 'lead vs lithium' threads. I started one here specifically about lithium as an option in extreme cold. I also did some real thinking and came up with my true range needs in that thread, which I'll copy here for the those that are afraid of links... 


> My likely use will be daily driving of 12 miles with once-a-week driving of 25 miles and once-every-two-weeks driving of 44 miles. (round-trip distances) It would be perfectly acceptable to lose range in the winter as long as it still gave me 12 miles per charge and wasn't at the expense of longevity of the pack.


The 44 mile trip is done infrequently enough that we could simply use our gas car if that kind of range requires significant added cost (which I'm going to start a thread on now... hehe), complexity (I am a beginner after all), or loss of reliability (like Ziggythewiz says - half a ton in a 40 year old car)....


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## Ziggythewiz (May 16, 2010)

You can certainly use the back for storage space, plenty of room back there, just not for batteries and seating.

If you go lithium, you can expect the batteries to be at least 50% of the project cost. If you're interested in saving money over using gas, enough batteries for a 44 mile range will never pay for themselves while making that trip twice a month. I'd size your pack for a 30 mile range (at 50% DOD if using lead or 80% if lithium) and take the gasser for the longer trips.


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## lowcrawler (Jun 27, 2011)

So I've effectively used a few threads to work through my issues -- one on Lithium vs Lead overall costs and another on Lithium vs Lead in the cold. (amongst reading almost everyhing else on the internet... heh)

Turns out the cost is basically a wash (basically) and that while Lithium might preform better in cold, neither is going to be 'hurt' by the cold and LA might actually have more longevity due to colder temps.

Given that, I've decided, for reasons in this post, that I think I'll go with a 155Ah 120V setup made from these batteries. It should weigh 900lbs, which is a bit more than I'd like but I think still in the range of what others have done. It should give me the range I want at a price I can comfortably handle.

*Does anyone see a glaring issue with this particular battery choice?* With a car weight of ~1900 pounds, removing a net 100 with the motor swap and then adding the batteries that'd put the car at around 2700lbs. Is that, as Ziggythewiz says; "Asking for trouble"?


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## Guest (Jul 1, 2011)

> I quick look on evalbum again and it looks like no one really gets more than 40 mile range in a bug with lead with one exception: http://evalbum.com/1798
> 
> But I can't tell what's up with his system that gives him 70% more range than everyone else.


Well I can tell you, he does not drive it at freeways speeds to get those figures. He is meticulous at keeping logs of charging and driving and distances and all that. He has records from way back. The other advantage he has is his motor. He has a 9" GE motor that has no internal fan and the motor is not advanced. It has loads of torque and is quite brisk. I got to ride in that bug. Very very nice build. He has added to it for a very long time and has driven it all electric for a very long time. His motor he is using now is pretty much what he has had in it from the beginning. He did experiment with other stuff but this is pretty much it. The motor fits with no cutting as will most 9" or less motors. There is a trick to getting the motor in without cutting. PM me for the information on that. His will be switching over to lithium soon. He currently uses a zilla. That he has not had in the Bug for long. Last year he installed that. With lithium he will be doing better than with lead. Again mostly street driving and almost no freeway driving and you too will get reasonable mileage. 

Corbin, with your freeway driving you should put on a blower. Remember to mount it so it does not counter the built in blower. Built in blowers are on the drive end blowing to the brush end. Not the brush end to the drive end. So put your blower on the drive end next to the adaptor plate so it blows back through with the internal one and then out the brush end. 

Lowcrawler, you might consider a Synkromotive controller for your ride. Priced right and powerful and air cooled. No mounting issues and it will not over heat if you drive it within the parameters. Its built in safety will protect the controller from abuse. Most street vehicles don't need more than 750 amps and 156 volts. It will be a good match for your VW even if you use lead acid batteries. Fully programmable too. This is a very serious controller. Think about it. 

The price and performance and longevity of lithium vs lead is not awash. What is awash is the price over the life time of the lithium. You get the better deal with lithium and no acid or watering or any heavy lead to haul around. They are over all a better deal. I am using old 100 AH lithium cells and they are great. Almost magic. Way better than lead acid batteries. Way easier too.

Pete 

Currently own a: 
Nissan Leaf
77 MG Midget all electric
And a 67 VW Bus to be electric in progress. 
Built and dismantled a couple years ago an Electric 64 VW Ghia.


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## Ziggythewiz (May 16, 2010)

lowcrawler said:


> removing a net 100 with the motor swap and then adding the batteries that'd put the car at around 2700lbs.


You should be removing more weight than that (motor+starter+fuel tank) so I think you're fine weight wise (with the upgraded brakes and suspension). I don't know that you'll be real happy with the performance though. 120v pushing that much weight will be pretty mediocre at best. I'd really recommend going lithium if at all possible, or going 144v with slightly smaller batteries if you can.


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## cruisin (Jun 3, 2009)

gottdi said:


> Well I can tell you, he does not drive it at freeways speeds to get those figures. He is meticulous at keeping logs of charging and driving and distances and all that. He has records from way back. The other advantage he has is his motor. He has a 9" GE motor that has no internal fan and the motor is not advanced. It has loads of torque and is quite brisk. I got to ride in that bug. Very very nice build. He has added to it for a very long time and has driven it all electric for a very long time. His motor he is using now is pretty much what he has had in it from the beginning. He did experiment with other stuff but this is pretty much it. The motor fits with no cutting as will most 9" or less motors. There is a trick to getting the motor in without cutting. PM me for the information on that. His will be switching over to lithium soon. He currently uses a zilla. That he has not had in the Bug for long. Last year he installed that. With lithium he will be doing better than with lead. Again mostly street driving and almost no freeway driving and you too will get reasonable mileage.
> 
> Corbin, with your freeway driving you should put on a blower. Remember to mount it so it does not counter the built in blower. Built in blowers are on the drive end blowing to the brush end. Not the brush end to the drive end. So put your blower on the drive end next to the adaptor plate so it blows back through with the internal one and then out the brush end.
> 
> ...


I would re think what advise you are giving to Corbin as the the fan in the Net Gain motors are inlet at the brushes and exit at the drive end. Some European motors are as you indicated.


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## Guest (Jul 1, 2011)

cruisin said:


> I would re think what advise you are giving to Corbin as the the fan in the Net Gain motors are inlet at the brushes and exit at the drive end. Some European motors are as you indicated.


I think you need to go look again at your motor. Both my Warp9 and Warp9 Impulse motors have the fan on the drive end as do both my Kostov motors.

Pete


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## Guest (Jul 1, 2011)

Ziggythewiz said:


> You should be removing more weight than that (motor+starter+fuel tank) so I think you're fine weight wise (with the upgraded brakes and suspension). I don't know that you'll be real happy with the performance though. 120v pushing that much weight will be pretty mediocre at best. I'd really recommend going lithium if at all possible, or going 144v with slightly smaller batteries if you can.


I think he is saying that taking those things out then putting in the motor/adaptor he will be a a net loss of 100 lbs. That is about right. Yes his ride will be heavy and will need the extra suspension goodies to help keep things balanced and off the ground. However performance is still pretty brisk even at 96 volts and full of lead. At 120 volts he may in fact like the performance. Top end performance my not be so great but it will keep up in traffic and be able to run the freeway. My little Ghia did quite exceptional at 96 volts. Just be sure you use more than 400 amp maximum controller. The Synkromotive will do perfect. Set it to 700 amps max and you can scoot along just fine. I'd recommend 120 volts as the minimum for decent performance. The MG is 120 volts and does quite well. I'd like to see what 156 volts can do. Some day maybe. 

Pete


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## cruisin (Jun 3, 2009)

gottdi said:


> I think you need to go look again at your motor. Both my Warp9 and Warp9 Impulse motors have the fan on the drive end as do both my Kostov motors.
> 
> Pete


The fan is on the drive end as the exhaust. No room for the fan on the brush end. It is important not to put the fan on the wrong end. I believe you have the wrong information. Call George at Net gain to verify my input.


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## Guest (Jul 1, 2011)

So your saying the fan sucks rather than blows? If that is the case then by all means put the blower on the brush end. Never did hear anyone ever say what direction the air moved because of the fan. Normally a fan will push air not pull. So if it pulls then it pulls from the brush and out the drive. My mistake if thats the case. 

Pete


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## Ziggythewiz (May 16, 2010)

No need to ask, just check yourself. Put car in neutral and push the throttle pot a bit. I did on mine to compare the airflow before and after adding the forced cooling (which on mine exhausts out the drive end).


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## Ziggythewiz (May 16, 2010)

gottdi said:


> I think he is saying that taking those things out then putting in the motor/adaptor he will be a a net loss of 100 lbs. That is about right. Yes his ride will be heavy and will need the extra suspension goodies to help keep things balanced and off the ground. However performance is still pretty brisk even at 96 volts and full of lead. At 120 volts he may in fact like the performance. Top end performance my not be so great but it will keep up in traffic and be able to run the freeway. My little Ghia did quite exceptional at 96 volts.
> Pete


Yes, I understood that, but in a bug you're removing around 400 lbs of stuff and adding 150-200 + batteries. What did your ghia weigh? I'm just comparing my bug (and I wish I had gone 144v) to his planned 300 lbs heavier bug.


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## Guest (Jul 1, 2011)

No your removing maybe 250 lbs of stuff. The bug engine does not weigh much at all even with the extra junk on the motor and the fuel tank is pretty light weight when empty. The 

64 Ghia 1808 lbs kerb weight with permissible weight of 2513 lbs. So a total of 705 lbs capacity balanced between both the front and rear. 

70 Beetle 1807 lbs kerb weight with a permissible weight of 2643 lbs. So a total of 838 lbs capacity balanced between both the front and rear. 

I had 1020 lbs of batteries in my Ghia. I was well over the the maximum permissible weight even after replacing the stock engine and fuel tank. This is the reason you should go with lithium right out of the gate. Permissible weight is a big deal and the VW platform can handle extra weight better than a lot of other vehicles. 

Pete


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## lowcrawler (Jun 27, 2011)

Bah! I hate you guys.... but with love. I guess, technically my wallet hates you guys and my smile loves you.  

So I spoke to my wife yesterday after kind of 'making the decision' to go for lead and keep the costs down. I honestly expected her to be pleasantly surprised at my restraint (given I'm always kind of a 'go big or go home' kind of guy). I then explained the pros/cons of each system and she interupted me and said "Sounds like the lithium is the no brainer choice".

 Wha?!?!   Alright then, I guess I'll roll lithium. 

She did agree with the range needs not really needing to be much - 25 miles (all 60mph highway) being all we'd need... Should have a buffer of some sort both for as the batteries age of the batteries, wanting heat, and needing to have a heatpad for the batteries when parked outside for long periods of time...etc, etc, etc.

Looking at lithium, it seems like the best place to buy is here because they come with all the connectors, hardware, compression plates, and straps. (unless someone can recommend a cheaper/better place?)
It seems 90Ah cells @ 144V would fit the need just fine (13kWh, 33 mile range, 315lbs) . However, for $500 more I could get the 100Ah cells instead (14.4kWh, 36 mile range, 347lbs) giving me a little larger buffer for cranking the heat and lower DoD (more cycles, less strain), so that's where might sights are currently set.

That puts my pack cost at around 6k after shipping. Yeouch. 1k for a controller, 2k for a motor, and 3-4k for a donor car in good shape and another 1k in misc crap and my project suddenly is 13+k. Given I was looking at a project cost to max out around 8k I'm clearly not following the original plan. haha. Such is life...

One question before I 'lock in' that decision --

Everyone seems to state that 'higher voltage is better'.

Does 120V (given that would meet my speed needs) have it's own benefits when it comes to adding components like heaters and various other things or charging -- given 120 is wall power?


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## Guest (Jul 1, 2011)

120 should be the minimum. 
144 or 156 would do real nice. 
160 or larger lithium would be best if you can push for them. I use 100 AH cells and freeway driving is hard on them. Go for the larger AH sized. 200 would be great. Or you could buddy pair 90ah cells and be just fine. 

Motors you can find in excellent condition for decent prices. You can save a bunch if you shop around. I'd shop around for your batteries too and wait until your ready for your batteries. You might find you have a better one to buy when that time comes. You'd hate yourself if you purchased your cells now and found in 5 months that a better one was available for slightly less. It does happen. Last thing to buy should be your batteries. 

Shop and plan well. It will save you a bundle and allow you to build a real nice vehicle. 

Pete 

PS. Shop and Plan well. Oh did I just say that!


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## EVfun (Mar 14, 2010)

You do want to look at your other part choices but much of the same hardware works between 120 and 144 volts. I would say that 38 to 45 cells is about ideal for using less expensive controllers, DC to DC converter, and the ceramic heaters originally designed for operation on 120 VAC. 40 cells is a good target, along with an Impulse 9 motor from Netgain because its shorter length will fit without cutting the rear apron of the Bug. I would recommend you buy 2 extra cells, in case of operator error you will have matching spares.

Now you know what I would do.


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## Guest (Jul 1, 2011)

I made a mistake about the fan on the Kostov. It is on the brush end due to the design. One has the fan removed. 

Pete


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## Ziggythewiz (May 16, 2010)

Congrats on the decision! Can't beat havin the wife tell you to do lithium. I can't wait to run mine on 144v lithium...maybe in 3-5 years after I run down this and another set of floodies.


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## lowcrawler (Jun 27, 2011)

Alrighty team! Almost done 'sizing the pack'. (from which it is my understanding all other choices stem)

Now I'm looking at total C -- These 100Ah packs I'm looking at  seem to indicate optimal discharge current is .5C and that max is 3C (<15 minutes) and that 'peak' (5 seconds) is 20C. The rule I've been hearing on this forum is that going above 3C for extended periods is bad and that 1C is the sustained max I'd really want to pull in 'normal' driving.

It sounds like (correct me if I'm wrong, I'm learning) that C is calculated as the amps pulled divided by the Ah (at the same voltage). So if I have a 100Ah @ 144V pack, I can pull 300A (@144V) for a bit and 100A (@144V) sustained. ... right?

But then the question becomes, how much will I be pulling once it's all factored in. 
Looking at Corbin's data here and here
It looks like he is consistently in the 75-175A range while doing 'flat land' driving, with sustained use between 200-300A while going up a large hill.

I can live without the almost 600A spike he did while going full-throttle up the end of the hill... hehe... but, still, that puts me at 1.5->3C with my 100Ah (144V) pack... no? That's basically 'tapped out' without factoring any MN-needed auxillary use (heater) of the batteries, right?

My heater I'd go with is probably 2 (likely 3) x 1500W ceramic heaters for defrost and then seat heaters for human warmth. 
4500W??? Yes, I'll lose range, but I can deal with that much easier than I can deal with driving for 20 minutes blind at -25F or having the wife complain that she's cold. It's not uncommon for me to leave someplace and have half and inch of ice I need to melt/chip through before I can drive away... So, 4500W/144V=31A. Likely I'd kick on all three elements for a few minutes right at startup to thaw things and then switch down to 1 (10A) just to keep things from re-frosting. The blowers are on a 30A fuse in my current car, so that makes me think what - another 3A or so @ 144 (vs 12V)

Reading seems to show that seat heaters rock for EVs. (that's actually how I drive my current car -- heater to defrost, then off/low while I just use the seat heater to keep my body warm)... and aftermarket ones don't appear to pull much -- 5-10A @ 12V x 2 seats = ~2A @ 144.

Then lights, basic radio, and the rest would be relatively light drain, I'd think. Maybe another 200-300W total worst case? So that's another 2A max, lets say.

I can't think of much else that would pull non-trivial amounts of current.

Add it up and it looks like I'd be looking at a sustained draw of at least 100A and upwards of 185A draw for normal driving on 'flat ground' during the winter.

If I understand C correctly that puts me at 1-2C.... or 4x the 'optimal discharge rate' for the battery pack I'm looking at. I know I wouldn't have the heat just cranking the entire time, I wouldn't expect a 5-6k pack to be 'too small' to power a teeny Bug... Am I missing something? Is 1-2C 'just fine'? Are Corbin's numbers abnormal - What are others pulling (amps) while powering their bug at highway speeds?

Thanks...


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## Ziggythewiz (May 16, 2010)

I pull around 100A at 55mph.


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## Travdude (May 11, 2009)

You won't be sorry you chose Lithium!

For my Beetle, at 65mph on level ground, with 128V, it draws about 200 amps.


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## lowcrawler (Jun 27, 2011)

Ziggythewiz said:


> I pull around 100A at 55mph.


So that means with your 125aH (120V) pack, you're pulling less than 1C. Is that by design, or did it just work out that way?

Travis seems to be pulling double that amperage while on the highway - what makes yours so much more efficient? Or is there really that much more wind drag at 65 vs 55?


Travis - are you at all concerned pulling 1.5C?


Anyone - is there a way to lower my 'C' without really spending more needlessly (like a different volt vs Ah pack or something - 130Ah @ 108V gives me the same theoretical range as 100Ah @ 144V)? I don't need more range or performance, but longevity of the batteries matters to me quite a bit and it's my understanding 'C' affects that.


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## Ziggythewiz (May 16, 2010)

Just works out that way. I usually pull around 80A doing 45mph, if I get some open road today I'll throw it in 4th and get a 65mph reading; it's been a long time since I did that, so I just don't remember what it pulled.


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## lowcrawler (Jun 27, 2011)

That'd be awesome. Thanks in advance.

Either way, it'll probably be over 100Amps though, so I wonder if that's an issue with my proposed 100Ah (@144V) pack?


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## Ziggythewiz (May 16, 2010)

65 mph was around 125A, maybe lower as I didn't have room to settle into cruising. Also 45 mph seemed closer to 50A. 

I don't know if sustained pulls over 1C are bad for lithium, I don't concern myself much with my lead (prorated for 30 months, paid for after 8). You'd have to check with the lithium guys; I had thought 2-3C was fine, but maybe that's for 15 sec at a time, not 15 min.


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## Travdude (May 11, 2009)

It's more like 1.25C because I have the 160Ah Batteries, I'm not worried about 1.25C.

Corbin draws 175A because he has a 144 volt pack, whereas I have a 128 volt pack, so that makes sense that his would be lower.


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## lowcrawler (Jun 27, 2011)

Alrighty.

Theoretical proof-of-concept 'step' complete. I'm convinced I can do this, and that I can do it within a budget I can live with.

So the next step is getting a car.  (I've been looking for about a month now)

I've talked to some restoration folks and their advice has been "don't buy a piece of junk and try to fix it... having to 'restore' it is never cheaper than simply buying it in good shape in the first place... _especially_ once you factor in the value of your time.".

So that moved my donor car budget from 1-2k plus restore to 3-4k restore 'included'. In the midwest, I think I can get a pretty good car for 3-4k. If I'm going to 'up' my 'donor' budge,

I believe I've finally found one... just got a new "pan off restoration" 4 years ago and has sat in a garage since (200 miles since restoration).



> new tires, ball joints, shocks, bearings, ball joints, stabilzer bar, cv joints, fenders, steering box, brakes and new (wheel clinder, shoes), rebuilt 1820 cc engine, new carpet, new dash, new door panels, all rubber seals new, new door panels, new roof liner, new carpet *snip irrelevant stuff* Stripped to bare metal, epoxy primer, base coat, three clear coats.


I also asked about photos of the underside for rust issues and was simply told "I have no photos of the underside because there simply isn't any rust to speak of". Well, if he's lying, I'll be mad when I show up.... grrr... 

Photos seem to back up all other assertions so I have no reason to think he's not telling the truth about the underbody.... it seems like a good get, right? I'm not super pumped about the paint _color_ but the quality seems top-notch... especially if it's already 4 years old.

2 questions for ya'll.

1) It's got newly-reworked brakes... I had planned (based on what others do and my understanding they are safer) to go to disc brakes; but I'd hate to 'waste' money replacing something in good shape. How important is this given I'm going to 250lbs of lithium rather than 1000lbs of lead? I've never owned a car with drum brakes before so I don't know the pros/cons of this. Would it be more difficult to go to disc brakes _after_ electric conversion (ie: drive it until the current drums need work, then upgrade to disc?)

2) How much is that engine worth? It's been proposed I can have the car for cheaper if I leave the engine with the other owner. I can't seem to find a value anywhere online.


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## Guest (Jul 7, 2011)

I think the brake issue is pretty much a no brainer with lithium weight vs lead weight. Lead is just plain dead weight. Lithium is not. Your vehicle will be within the realm of using good stock brakes. As for the engine, it is used and you have no idea except what the owner says about it's condition. Most of the time the engines are toast and that is a usual reason for the selling of the vehicle. Good stock VW engines can fetch a good 4 or 5 hundred complete and a decent built one a few hundred more maybe as long as it's complete. I have seen perfectly good looking engines that are toast inside. Many VW engines are driven HARD and many folks have no clue on how to care for one thats stock let along a performance one. If the price drop on the car is significant without the engine then it may be a good idea to buy without the engine. I have done that many times and put my own in. Best I have ever got from a used VW engine ready to drop into someone else's vw was 500 bucks for a running stock type III engine. Used engines are always a big risk. The rest is easy. Expect to pay a good 3 to 6 grand for a nicely done vehicle. If your serious and the person selling is serious and he refuses to get you photos of what you ask for then don't buy it. He is hiding something. Something which I find all to often in the VW scene. Also look at the rockers and have the doors open and have a look at the A pillar at the floor and if possible a look with the carpet up. Lots of folks hide bad rust issues under carpet or primer paint. Be very picky. Look for badly done repaints and such too. Many look great in photos but look crappy in photos. Look around window rubber for cheap blow and go paint jobs where they never removed the glass and you see a paint seam around the rubber. Many of those are coverups or a quick Earl Schieb style paint job. I'll do any car for $19.99. There are a whole bunch of those that folks call restored. It is bull shit. If it's been restored it will have been a pan off restoration and a complete inside and outside paint job with all the windows and trim off and all the body work complete. No painting over chipped paint. No blow and go. Many that are touted to be restored are blow and go bull shit. Watch out. 

VW's are no longer the cheap-o cars of yesteryear. They fetch a whopping gold standard price and for some a gold standard for original rust. Be very very very careful about buying and spending a whopping lot on a VW. I just want you to be informed well that there is lots of junk out there and junk in fine suits. So with that, there are good VW's to be had. Just be picky picky picky. 
Can you send a link to the one your interested in? I will have a quick look if you don't mind. Ask them for photos of exactly what you want to see. If not, pass on the deal. I always give any prospective customer photos of what they want to see. Always. No bull and no shit. 

Pete 

Contact me off list for more.


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## EVfun (Mar 14, 2010)

I've been drawing over 2C when I hit the freeway (2.25C to 2.5C.) Of course I don't stay on the freeway for long as I would flatten the little 60 amp hour cells in less than 1/2 hour. I have not seen any adverse effect of 6C peak currents and typical continuous currents between 1C and 1.3C. I haven't found any cells warm or down to 2.5 volts. I got to learn to use my new found range, I keep driving the buggy like it still has the 20 mile range it had on lead, it must be around 30 miles now. I'm gonna find out if these newer cells have a problem with dishing out the amps.


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## lowcrawler (Jun 27, 2011)

EVfun said:


> I've been drawing over 2C when I hit the freeway (2.25C to 2.5C.) Of course I don't stay on the freeway for long as I would flatten the little 60 amp hour cells in less than 1/2 hour. I have not seen any adverse effect of 6C peak currents and typical continuous currents between 1C and 1.3C. I haven't found any cells warm or down to 2.5 volts. I got to learn to use my new found range, I keep driving the buggy like it still has the 20 mile range it had on lead, it must be around 30 miles now. I'm gonna find out if these newer cells have a problem with dishing out the amps.


Given more research into the C draw people are pulling, looking at the specs of the cells I'm looking to buy, looking at my driving habits, and also watching the LiFePO4 professor video, I'm inclined to think that 1-2C pull isn't anything I need to be concerned with... lower is better, obviously, but it reality appears to be that 1-2C, even over dozens of minutes, is both typical and non-harmful to the cells.


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## corbin (Apr 6, 2010)

lowcrawler said:


> Alrighty.
> 
> Theoretical proof-of-concept 'step' complete. I'm convinced I can do this, and that I can do it within a budget I can live with.
> 
> ...



I am really happy I went with disc brakes -- BUT I have a huge hill I drive down every day. The brakes heat up quite a bit coming home. Another thing to remember is that you don't have an engine to slow you down; the motor just spins freely. If you have any kind of hills around you, then I'd got disc all around (or at the front, at minimum). If you drive on flats, it probably isn't as big a deal.

I think I sold my engine for $300 or so (I forget...I can double check at this point if you want more data). This is in the west coast, California. Other parts of the world may have different prices.

pete -- yeah, I should run a blower on the motor; it gets darn warm in the summer!

RE amps: I think I pull 200-300amps going up a steep incline (6 or 7%) for about 7 minutes at 50-55mph. I can double check on the drive home tonight.

corbin


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## lowcrawler (Jun 27, 2011)

Welp, I bought something. A 1970 that seems to be in very good shape. Photos on my wedding photography blog 

I'll probably set up a side-blog for just the plug-bug (yes, Corbin, I stole your name... imitation is the sincerest form of flattery... I also might go with "bug zapper" or "lighting bug" but I like how short plug bug is) or something... I'll have so many questions for you guys and need to post so many photos that it'll overwhelm my wedding stuff! haha.

I put over 200 miles on it in the first 24 hours. Runs good!

The transmission is new, the engine is 4k miles old (engine fire, which bubbled some paint on the rear apron, resulted in a new engine), new rear 'overload' sprints (perfect given I'll be putting some weight in the back!). Brakes, tires, and carb are less than 1000 miles old. 5 year ago it had new carpet, dash, headliner, seat covering, window rubber and seals, door panels, and paint -- all of that was kind of 'middle-level' quality -- but it's clean and fits the era, for sure.

There isn't a spec of rust on the underside or any of the floor pans or anything like that - the only place with any significant rust is the underside of the bolt-on running boards -- which doesn't bother me in the slightest. The entire 'structural' underside is coated in some rust preventer stuff -- though it was clearly put on like 20+ some years ago as it's starting to flake -- I'll probably get some POR 15 and paint the entire underside before winter.

The paint is a '10 foot' job -- looks good from 10 feet. It's far from 'show quality' but it should keep the rust off and is better than I expected I'd be able to get. It looks like they didn't wait long enough between the primer an the top coat in some areas as there is a little primer-off-gassing bubbling in a few places. Nothing concerning, but I'll want to touch them up a bit before any rust has a chance to catch hold.

For now, I'm happy with the car with it's smelly gas engine. I'll probably drive it around for at least a few weeks before I go ripping stuff out. Depending on how busy I am, I might wait until next spring. Initial looking seems like it would take about 2 months @ 20 hours a week assuming I didn't have to wait on supplies to badly. Working on it over the winter would be a bear given my garage is not heated. Luckily I've lived here my whole life, so I can handle 'working outside' easily until the end of Nov normally.


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## Ziggythewiz (May 16, 2010)

Looks great!


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## Guest (Jul 29, 2011)

Nice wedding pics. Car looks good too. Did you get it for a decent price? I did not have such good luck with the last Ghia I went to look at. Oh well. Yours looks good. Nice that it is the IRS style suspension. You will like that.

Pete


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## lowcrawler (Jun 27, 2011)

Given I'm not in CA where Bugs seem to grow on trees... I was happy with the sale. 

I'd gone and looked at a few in the 4-5k range and was actually starting to get a little dissapointed and depressed that this project wasn't going to happen. I also had a stupid amount of people sending me mass quantities of photos, and this was way better than all of them that people were willing to part with for <6k. Yet I walked away for 3750. Probably could have gotten something for cheaper, but I doubt I'd have been able to find something quite as 'turnkey' for the price.

Once I pull the engine the guy said he'd be willing to rebuy it back from me for his other bug... double-score!

That said, I AM a photographer, so these shots make the car look like it's in a little better shape than it really is. No photoshopping, just selective angles.


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## lowcrawler (Jun 27, 2011)

Okay -- after doing some researching this is the parts list I've built up. Number in parenthesis is for explanations later in the post.

Warp9 (1)
Soliton Jr (2) air cooled
48x100Ah CALB (3) Batteries
Cloud Electric Adapter plate and coupler
Hall-Effect PB6 TPS
Zivan NG3 Charger
300V 500A main fuse and Fuse Clamp
Acme 53A DCDC (4) connected to current aux 12 SLA battery
Intertia Switch
emergency/maintenance disconnect
Ceramic Heaters x 3 or 4 (plus some fans) connected via these Solid State Relays
Seat Heaters x2

I've left out misc fuses, brackets, and such for clarity sake of critiquing my proposed build.

Bus bars and compression should be included with the batteries.

Main contactor and precharge is included in the Soliton. Amp, Volt and SOC should be output by it. So I don't plan shunts or other meter-y things. In the end, I'll likey only have SOC on the dash (using the gas gauge) and put a visor monitor in for the 'extra info' for me to flip down and look at when I want.

I'll need to source 2/0 cable as well as connectors, but it seems I could likely do that locally for cheaper. Is this correct? Suggestions as to what to look for?

I need to acquire a tach & over-temp sensor still -- Suggestions?

Still looking for a 'plug' solution... but figure that can't be too hard.

I am planning to go without a BMS, but given my pack will be effectively 4 12-cell packs in series, I was wondering if there would be an economical way to make sure nothing was going crazily out-of-whack.


1) Still looking at the impulse instead due to not wanting to cut my apron at all, but it appears if I cut off the rear shaft that notching the apron isn't extreme. Worried that the impulse wouldn't give me the speed/efficiency that I need to comfortably roll on the highway. (I'm NOT a racer but I do take the freeway @ 65mph every day for 4 miles)

2) Really like the synkromotive, but the lack of feature documentation and a plethora of 'secret' features makes it a risk I don't want to take.

3) This is the most kWh's I could fit behind my back seat. I'm looking to keep the car as 'stock' as possible looking and thus didn't want to remove the seat. At freeway speeds, I'll likely be pulling 300kW/mile -- or 200A, which is 2C. I'll limit battery amps to 400A (4C) to keep them in good shape. If range becomes a problem (est. 38 miles) I can duplicate the pack (it's only 334 lbs) and parallel in the front trunk. 

4) I like the 'specs' of the Iota DCDC -- seems just as (if not more) powerful and it's a little cheaper and doesn't appear to need active cooling -- but after reading Corbin' issues with Iota, I'm gunshy. Does anyone have any experience with the Acme? I'm particularly interested in if the fan is on 'high' when on... or if it changes/turns on based on temp. (the manual just says 'load') I don't want to have a fan on unless things are getting hot. I'll need to support about 35A in seat-heat/fans/radio plus whatever I need for lights and the drivetrain -- am I leaving enough headroom -- how many 12V will the various contactors/controllers/etc on a normal EV pull?



So - that's where we are at. What am I missing? Do you see any clear issues? Any help you can give me would be just great.


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## corbin (Apr 6, 2010)

RE Plug -- I used an L6-30 locking plug. There is an EV one that is easy to mount in the gas tank inlet. 

How does the soliton know the SOC? Does it track the ah consumed? If so, it will give a slightly different value than true SOC, as it won't take account to any extra draw (i.e.: DC-DC and heater). What type of gauge are you going to use to display that info? I'm guessing you'll still need an SOC gauge, like this one:

http://minibms.mybigcommerce.com/template/files/EV Display V2 User Guide.pdf

I have a tach hooked up to an RPM sensor on the end of the warp, but it doesn't work so great -- I get lots of fluctuation in RPM value due to noise (the wire didn't have any grounding wires next to it..doh!). I just used the standard RPM sensor sold at evolve and other places. 

The impulse will probably be fine for you. My bug is quite "peppy" by bug standards, and many people are really surprised how fast it moves. If you are limiting it to 400 amps, then a regular warp9 may not even be used to its full potential. I limit mine to 700 amps.

-corbin

PS: You probably meant 300watt-hours/mile.


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## cruisin (Jun 3, 2009)

lowcrawler said:


> Okay -- after doing some researching this is the parts list I've built up. Number in parenthesis is for explanations later in the post.
> 
> Warp9 (1)
> Soliton Jr (2) air cooled
> ...


For your 12v supply, I would suggest a small Li-ion 12v battery source and a 1/2 brick DC converter to keep the battery source charged. Dependability is very high, and should be, without 12v you dont go anywhere. I have installed about 12 of these 12 volt sources in conversions and they are all still running today without any failures. If you replace all your light bulbs with LED's, the battery AH could be small if there are no other energy hogs in the car. Much better than all these DC-DC converters you hear about that fail when you need them the most. Just my opinion. Hope it helps.


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## EVfun (Mar 14, 2010)

I would recommend the Impulse motor to avoid cutting the rear apron and to shift the power band up to higher rpms. I don't think anyone will notice the slight loss of efficiency, it should still be better than the old Prestolite MTC in my buggy. It's a few percent change in range and should make the power band more like the stock engine. 

I would recommend buying 50 cells so you have your own matched spares. Consider it something to learn with, in case you mess up early on. Perhaps I'm a bit of a belt and suspenders type of guy. (not literally )


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## lowcrawler (Jun 27, 2011)

corbin said:


> RE Plug -- I used an L6-30 locking plug.


So you don't have an option to charge at 110? How do you work that?



> How does the soliton know the SOC?


I think it can track it based on voltage... there was a thread about it around here but I can't seem to re-find it.



> What type of gauge are you going to use to display that info?


 Apparently the soliton can output an pseudo-anolog signal on a scale you choose (via PWM)... so I plan to hook to the existing gas guage.

Though, if that doesn't prove accurate enough the little gauge you show looks like a real winner.



> I have a tach hooked up to an RPM sensor on the end of the warp, but it doesn't work so great -- I get lots of fluctuation in RPM value due to noise (the wire didn't have any grounding wires next to it..doh!). I just used the standard RPM sensor sold at evolve and other places.


I'd only really be using it to ensure the over-revving cutoff kicked in.... it's accurate enough for that, right?

I thought you sawed off the tail shaft on your warp9 ... no?



> PS: You probably meant 300watt-hours/mile.


 Yes, mea culpa. I shouldn't have used my 40,000lbs semi figures.


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## lowcrawler (Jun 27, 2011)

cruisin said:


> For your 12v supply, I would suggest a small Li-ion 12v battery source and a 1/2 brick DC converter to keep the battery source charged.


What is a 'half-brick' converter?

I'll be hooking the DC-DC to a battery. I also planned to take the 12V off the DC-DC and wire it to a relay that would kick on a dummy light (I've got 6 to use in the stock gauge) so I'd be warned of failure of the DC-DC right away and the aux battery should, in theory, have the juice to get me home...


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## lowcrawler (Jun 27, 2011)

EVfun said:


> I would recommend buying 50 cells so you have your own matched spares.


Funny -- that's actually why I went with 48 even though I really only wanted 45. I figured I can just 'use' my 'matched spares' and if a few die, that's fine....


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## corbin (Apr 6, 2010)

lowcrawler said:


> So you don't have an option to charge at 110? How do you work that?
> 
> 
> I think it can track it based on voltage... there was a thread about it around here but I can't seem to re-find it.
> ...


My PFC30 can take 120v or 240v; I just make an adapter like the instructions said in the PFC manual. I have charged quite a few times off 120v and it works fine.

Regarding SOC tracking based on cell voltage: I don't think you should do that with lithium; it isn't accurate enough, as the cells tend to stick right around 3.2v until it is pretty low (i.e. < 20%) or pretty high (i.e.: > 80% --- those are rough figures off the top of my head, and probably aren't accurate).

You definitely want an amp-hour tracker of some kind.

I did cut my tail shaft off...but left a tiny bit there. Just enough to hook the sensor up to. I think you don't even need an RPM gauge; you just need to input the sensor output into the Soliton, and it will take care of limiting the revs. The Warp controller I'm using unfortunately doesn't have this feature (yet).

corbin


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## galeson (Oct 25, 2009)

For the Soliton1 evnetics recommends a 400A fuse. I would think they might recommend less for the Junior. You could ask as there is no documentaton yet.


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## Qer (May 7, 2008)

lowcrawler said:


> I think it can track it based on voltage... there was a thread about it around here but I can't seem to re-find it.


Yeah, works like a charm... if you use lead-acid. Totally worthless for Lithium, sorry. We have scrapped the SoC-output and the controller just has an ordinary voltage output in version 1.4 simply because Lithiums voltage goes from "Fully charged" to "All peachy here" to "HELP! I'M MELTING!" without any useful linearity at all which made the SoC-meter pointless.

So we scrapped the feature. Sorry 'bout that. Only way to reliably keep track of SoC is to count Ah and the only way to implement that in the Soliton is to do it poorly, so by corporate policy we prefer to not implement it at all. 



lowcrawler said:


> Apparently the soliton can output an pseudo-anolog signal on a scale you choose (via PWM)... so I plan to hook to the existing gas guage.


Yep. You can still hook up the pack voltage to the gas gauge if you like. It will be pretty much as useful (useless?) as the old SoC-output with the only exception that the needle will dip when you slam the throttle. However, it should still provide some kind of warning when your pack starts to get depleted. I think. Maybe... 



lowcrawler said:


> I'd only really be using it to ensure the over-revving cutoff kicked in.... it's accurate enough for that, right?


Should be. Problem with an rpm-sensor is that you have a small, delicate device often relying on measuring the RPM by magnetically sensing the passing of a notch and that small, delicate device sits next to a huge high power motor that creates a serious amount of electro-magnetic noise. It is not the most ideal position to say the least.

To get anything useful out of this mess the signal is filtered both electronically and digitally in a series of steps to get rid of the noise. There's unfortunately a limit to how much noise you can filter before you will filter the signal as well so it still means that the installation of the sensor and wire has to be made with the noisy environment in mind.

I know that there has been problems with noise in some configurations but as far as I know they have been solved either by cleaning up the electrical installation of the sensor or by simply getting a better sensor. One thing that's essential is for example to not ground the sensor in the sensor end but run three wires with ground, power and signal all the way to the Soliton and connect all three at the terminal strip to avoid ground loops etc.

So yes, the RPM-handling should be good enough for over-rev protection if the installation provides a clean enough signal...


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## cruisin (Jun 3, 2009)

lowcrawler said:


> What is a 'half-brick' converter?
> 
> I'll be hooking the DC-DC to a battery. I also planned to take the 12V off the DC-DC and wire it to a relay that would kick on a dummy light (I've got 6 to use in the stock gauge) so I'd be warned of failure of the DC-DC right away and the aux battery should, in theory, have the juice to get me home...


 
Hey, I would like to share the circuit and parts list with you, but I have been told if I give you my email address so we can communicate with files too large for this forum, I would be hijacking the thread, so NO HELP FROM HERE.


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## dtbaker (Jan 5, 2008)

hhmmm, I thought this was what PMs were for? getting private emails, etc. The concept of public threads is to post useful public info to lots of people..... If you have big files to share, that are online somewhere, you can post LINKS to the files....


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## cruisin (Jun 3, 2009)

dtbaker said:


> hhmmm, I thought this was what PMs were for? getting private emails, etc. The concept of public threads is to post useful public info to lots of people..... If you have big files to share, that are online somewhere, you can post LINKS to the files....


 
All of the info is mine and would need to be provided with email not somebody's URL. Some of it was developed when working on the Tesla Battery and Propulsion team and maybe proprietary. I have been told a email is a no no. Sorry.


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## lowcrawler (Jun 27, 2011)

cruisin said:


> Hey, I would like to share the circuit and parts list with you, but I have been told if I give you my email address so we can communicate with files too large for this forum, I would be hijacking the thread, so NO HELP FROM HERE.


Thank you for telling me that you have useful info but will not share it.

I think many others have done this, so I hope they will be willing to share.


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## lowcrawler (Jun 27, 2011)

(I assume the rest of the build proposal looks reasonable... right? Anyone see any places where I'm obviously "out of balance" or otherwise wasting money needlessly?)

Does anyone have any more input on the following questions:




lowcrawler said:


> *snip*
> 
> I need to acquire a tach & over-temp sensor still -- Suggestions?
> 
> ...


Thanks all -- you are a wealth of knowledge and I couldn't even have come this far without you...


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## lowcrawler (Jun 27, 2011)

Okay -- so here's my first attempt at my full car new wiring stuff... This is as complete as I know how to make it... so I'd love for someone to point out where I'm going to kill myself in a firey ball of electrical death. 

What am I missing to make it safe? What am I missing to make it work (period)? What am I missing to make it work _well_?


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## galeson (Oct 25, 2009)

At some time you will probably want a shunt to measure amps or kwh. The two kwh meters I've used need the shunt at the negative end of the battery pack. Good to plan ahead.


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## EVfun (Mar 14, 2010)

What temperature are you wanting to sense? 

I would generally say the diagram looks pretty good. I would work on simplifying the heater system as you are building it all from scratch in a old Beetle. The defrost needs to be heating outside air to work. One (or even both) of the cabin heaters could be set up to recirculate and heat the cabin air. You get more heat for your watts when you don't toss it overboard after a quick pass through the cabin (but it can get humid in the car.)

In my experience you won't really need the tach sender, a temperature sender other than using snap switch (on/off for a dash light) generally built into the motor, or an inertia switch (which doesn't necessarily work right because you are unlikely to crash test a few Bugs to determine a proper mounting point.) I'm sure I'll catch flack for this but I've only installed a tach system in one EV and never an inertia switch or advanced temperature monitoring. 

Your ignition on light is important but it has to be in parallel to the ignition power going to the Soliton, not in series with that power wire. I recommend you also add a light that indicates the heater(s) is on. I missed that on my Pickup conversion and really missed having it. I would recommend trying to keep most of the rest of the 12 volt system as close to stock as possible, with a single accessory fuse block for EV additions. 

You will need to choose and install some type of battery instrumentation. At least a volt meter, but with Lithium an amp hour counter would be better. Those wires need their own safety fuses, usually not larger than 1 amp and rated for the pack voltage. I like the ABC line of fuses as they come in the 1/4 by 1-1/4 size and have a suitable DC rating for many EVs.


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## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

Various comments in no particular order:

* I highly recommend Ferraz-Shawmut (now Mersen) A50QS series fuses. However, note that a 400A A50QS (or other similar fast-acting "semiconductor" fuse) will pass 1500A for 1 second before blowing. You pick the fuse to protect the wiring, not the controller (that's the job of desaturation detection) and a 400A fuse is about the right ampacity for 2/0 cable with 90C insulation. 

* Your tach sender probably needs a pullup or pulldown resistor. I recommend this inductive proximity sensor - it's the same one as we use on our dyno. This sensor has a PNP "open collector" output so it requires a resistor between TACH and SGND (1k/0.5W).

* The Soliton Jr does have gauge driver functions, and they are very convenient for monitoring motor and/or battery amps as you don't need to use a shunt, but for monitoring the battery pack I highly recommend an external Ah counter instead. 

* For a temperature sensor I'd use the bimetallic snap switch built into the WarP-9's field windings to trigger a "Throttle Limit" input on the Soliton Jr. Throttle Limit replaces the individual limit functions in previous code versions like "Motor temp sw." and "BMS LVC". I have been rewriting the manual over the last week to cover this change, among others.

And btw, the new version of the owner's manual should be done this weekend. Almost all of the content has been updated, I mainly still need to reindex the Table of Contents and add some more stuff to the technical info appendix (formerly called "troubleshooting", even though there wasn't any troubleshooting info in it).


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## lowcrawler (Jun 27, 2011)

EVfun said:


> What temperature are you wanting to sense?


Just want to make sure the motor doesn't overheat. I guess it might be nice to check the temps of my batteries and limit current based on too high and too low... though I'm not sure if the soliton can do that.. 



> I would work on simplifying the heater system as you are building it all from scratch in a old Beetle.


The heating system is actually taking more mind-space than the rest of things. I want that heater to work well, and work efficiently. In the end, it might get even more complicated/powerful... probably tweaking it quite a bit over time as I use it. Right now the 'lower' element will be between the two footwells -- heating interior air. The upper elements will be blowing outside air through the defrost vents (efectively giving me 3 options - "defrost low" ... "defrost low + footwell" or "defrost high + footwell". Combined with seat heaters, I hope this'll do the trick.




> In my experience you won't really need the tach sender, a temperature sender other than using snap switch (on/off for a dash light) generally built into the motor, or an inertia switch (which doesn't necessarily work right because you are unlikely to crash test a few Bugs to determine a proper mounting point.)


Probably right -- in fact, I won't even have a tach and because of the feedback I'm getting, I've now decided to just use the snap sensor... that said, for 20 bucks I can get a prox sensor hooked to the soliton jr and give myself 'overrev' protection. The inertia switch may or may not work... but for $30 I don't really see a reason to not do it.



> Your ignition on light is important but it has to be in parallel to the ignition power going to the Soliton, not in series with that power wire. I recommend you also add a light that indicates the heater(s) is on.


Ahh-- good catch. Good idea on a heater light too - though wouldn't you be able to feel the heat/wind? (honest question) I think I've now got that fixed in the updated.



> You will need to choose and install some type of battery instrumentation. At least a volt meter, but with Lithium an amp hour counter would be better.


The solition will output that for me (via computer I believe - can someone verify). That said, it won't do total AH... so I'm looking for a solution to the issues you (and Tesseract) bring up. I started a new thread on monitoring my pack without spending a boatload here: http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showthread.php?p=254551




Tesseract said:


> * Your tach sender probably needs a pullup or pulldown resistor. I recommend this inductive proximity sensor - it's the same one as we use on our dyno. This sensor has a PNP "open collector" output so it requires a resistor between TACH and SGND (1k/0.5W).


Sweet... you just saved me 80 bucks (I was looking at the netgain speed sensor)!



> * For a temperature sensor I'd use the bimetallic snap switch built into the WarP-9's field windings to trigger a "Throttle Limit" input on the Soliton Jr. Throttle Limit replaces the individual limit functions in previous code versions like "Motor temp sw." and "BMS LVC". I have been rewriting the manual over the last week to cover this change, among others.


I'll be doing that.

Great to hear about updated documentation -- does that mean 1.4 is soon-to-be-released?


With everyone's suggestions, this is my current (v2) proposed circuit. Again -- I really really appreciate all the help and the extra eyes from people who 'have been there' before. Really, thank you.


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## EVfun (Mar 14, 2010)

lowcrawler said:


> Good idea on a heater light too - though wouldn't you be able to feel the heat/wind? (honest question) I think I've now got that fixed in the updated.


The heater can be surprisingly quiet and calm when it is on low, especially when it's low defrost. On a spring day it is easy to forget to turn off the heat when not needed.


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## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

In a hurry so must be brief...



lowcrawler said:


> Just want to make sure the motor doesn't overheat. I guess it might be nice to check the temps of my batteries and limit current based on too high and too low... though I'm not sure if the soliton can do that..


Use two bimetallic switches in series - an NC for the high temp and an NO for the low temp - and feed them to an input configured as a Throttle Limit. 




lowcrawler said:


> The solition will output [battery amps and volts] for me (via computer I believe - can someone verify).


It can report both data through logger (battery amps must be calculated from duty cycle x battery volts) and through the gauge driver functions - note that the output from the latter is in fairly coarse 2% steps.




lowcrawler said:


> Great to hear about updated documentation -- does that mean 1.4 is soon-to-be-released?


I am having to rewrite the entire manual for 1.4 so it is that which is holding up it's release, but it should be done this weekend. Going to meet with someone now about some graphics and formatting and such.


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## Huub3 (Aug 16, 2009)

Hi,

just some quick remarks:
1) You now have "defrost" and "heater" switches parallized via the "heat on" light. To have this working OK you will need two diodes in both lines going to the light

2) I miss a bit (but this is personal taste) a contactor isolating the pack from the rest when the car is off. Maybe this is part of the Soliton package already, so check before adding anything

3) Precharge is already in the Soliton, isn't it?

4) I have noted that creating a proper ignition sequence is pretty tough to build out of the stock components in a car. Maybe this is not so difficult when external contactors and pre-charge are not needed, but I have some issues making the ignition circuit fool-proof and efficient.

Regards,


Huub


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## lowcrawler (Jun 27, 2011)

Huub3 said:


> Hi,
> 
> just some quick remarks:
> 1) You now have "defrost" and "heater" switches parallized via the "heat on" light. To have this working OK you will need two diodes in both lines going to the light


See, this is why I have you smart guys helping me out! 

So two of these suckers should do the trick? Or, maybe even better -- lighted switches all pre-ready for me! 

Yes, precharge and main contactors are already in the Soliton (that's actually one reason I went that way -- less complication on my end! (especially about ign sequence stuff)


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## Huub3 (Aug 16, 2009)

Hi,

not sure about the wattage of the lamp, but when it draws less than 1A, these dioded could work indeed.

Alternative is using individual lamps for "heat on" and "defrost".

Regards,


Huub


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## lowcrawler (Jun 27, 2011)

Well this is frustrating... Cloud Electric doesn't sell a netgain -> VW tranny adapter and coupler anymore... (if they ever did)

Suggestions on where to get a decent one at a good price?


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## Travdude (May 11, 2009)

Hey Lowcrawler, looks like you are making some good decisions on your build, it has been interesting following this thread.

For the adapter, you can try CAN EV.

http://www.canev.com/KitsComp/Components/AdapterPages/VWAirAdapterpage.htm

or

http://rebirthauto.com/Adapters.aspx

Good luck!


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## lowcrawler (Jun 27, 2011)

Great, thanks! And if it works on your great conversion, I'm confident it'll work on mine! CanEV it is!

Thanks...


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## lowcrawler (Jun 27, 2011)

Okay - so I found a buyer for my ICE motor and he wants it Monday.

I have a wedding tomorrow, so I am pulling the motor today.

I've basically got it out of the car (need to figure out how to lift the car even higher to get it out from under, but that's just logistics...).

But, I'm not sure what I need to keep from it. I know nothing of clutches, transmissions, couplers, etc.

So, do I keep this part (I've tinted it red)?









I seem to remember corbin latheing down something that looks like that... so I suspect I need it, but I really don't know.

EDIT:
Based on this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Clutch_illustration.jpg and the fact that all I see in the bowl of a casing where the motor connected to the transmission, I'm thinking I'm looking at the plate/spring stuff... and that I probably want to keep all of it given I want to have a fully functional clutch in the car (as part of my safety in a full-on-fail situation, if nothing else)


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## Guest (Sep 3, 2011)

Yes, That is the flywheel and pressure plate. You will also need to keep the Big bolt and washer from the flywheel too. Might keep the spacers too. You will see when you pull it off. A torque mizer tool will make short work of the big bolt. It requires 230 lb/ft torque to remove it. With the torque mizer it will only require 32 lb/ft of torque. Makes sort work and the tool is indispensable for removing the rear axle nuts too. You will be a happy camper with that tool. 

http://www.texasaircooled.com/catalog/VW-Torque-Multiplier-Torque-Dude-Torquemeister.html

I have one and won't leave home without it. It is one hell of a nice tool.


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## EVfun (Mar 14, 2010)

No, if you pull the flywheel you unseal the rear of the VW engine and unset the crankshaft end play. The seal rides on the flywheel and the inside edge of that lip is what the end play shims back up.

It would be better to just get yourself a new 200 mm flywheel, pressure plate, and clutch disc. It is easy and common hardware, no tricks to getting it right.


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## Guest (Sep 3, 2011)

Or you could leave it alone and just go buy a lightened flywheel. Don't forget the bolt and washer when you go buy your new stuff. If you plan on a screamer get a good pressure plate and clutch. Get a clutch alignment tool too. They are cheap and you will still want that tool. Guaranteed. 

Pete 

Been messing with VW's since 1974. Get the tool.


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## lowcrawler (Jun 27, 2011)

Wait, now I'm confused...

One of you says to take it off, the other says I'll be destroying the engine by doing so... (okay, so maybe not 'destroying' but still causing much harm...)


Uhm...  

So, for real -- the guy buying the motor -- would he be expecting that I leave these things on?


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## Guest (Sep 4, 2011)

I will side with leaving it on so the person buying the motor can just install it and go. You won't destroy the motor but the person buying it will have to go buy another. Id say let him have the old one. Since it is already installed and run in for that motor. New ones are not that expensive.


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## Guest (Sep 4, 2011)

How much you getting for the Turnkey engine? I hope a decent price.


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## lowcrawler (Jun 27, 2011)

$700

He seems happy with the deal, as do I. I'm honestly not sure what it's worth but when I had it for sale for 1k for a few weeks, I got zero inquiries... so I dropped the price to $700 and have had 3 in the past 2 weeks.


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## lowcrawler (Jun 27, 2011)

gottdi said:


> New ones are not that expensive.


I don't quite get transmissions... it's just been a part of the car that escapes my understanding.

Can you point me to a few links or something for all the parts I'd need if I sold the engine with whatever that red part is on it?

Looks like I'd need...
Flywheel - $100 -- 
Pressure Plate - $50
Clutch Kit - $100

... and probably some misc parts too, right? That's $250 bucks, at least... that's not astronomical, but it seems like a stupid amount to just throw away... no?


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## Guest (Sep 4, 2011)

Good price for your engine. 

You will want a good lightened flywheel and performance ( at least stage II if not IV) pressure plate with a good clutch disk. You will need the disk alignment tool. Cheap. $2 bucks and Big Gland nut. Get the flywheel with 8 dowels, not 4. They are offset to match your flywheel and can only go on one way. If you take your flywheel and pressure plate mounted together to the shop have them balance it for 8000 rpm. Once done you will have a balanced package. The disk really is not required to be balanced with the package. Don't forget the fat wave washer that goes behind the gland nut. There are a whole bunch of performance bug shops that sell these things. You will need to go look around. Don't forget the tool I mentioned. You might get lucky and find a good flywheel that is lightened and has no starter gear. The starter gear will allow you to use the tool mentioned to mount your flywheel to the adaptor. I purchased an adaptor made by Rebirth Auto. Perfect and will fit a 9" Warp9 out of the box. One nice design for just under $1k. All done right. No muss and no fuss. Check them out. http://rebirthauto.com/

Pete


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## Guest (Sep 4, 2011)

I have a stage II Pressure plate. I don't plan on racing at all. But with the torque of the motor I need at least that much. I could if I am not careful burn that one out pretty fast. A stage IV would be best. Mine is for cruising. Not high speed. Just high pulling power. Grunt Power to Go.


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## lowcrawler (Jun 27, 2011)

Thanks for your continued help. I hope the rest of the build doesn't have my head swimming as much as transmissions does. I really just can't wrap my head around what is what...

Let me see if I can understand here.

I am not going for performance - I'm only using a Soliton Jr and won't be racing in any way whatsoever. I understand that less rotating mass in the flywheel would be good for efficiency. So a 'lightened' flywheel makes sense to me. 

However, I don't quite understand why I'd want a performance pressure plate or a 'good' clutch disk -- given I'll probably only 'shift' once a week at most. Wouldn't the clutch basically be 'locked' the entire time? How would I benefit from paying the premium for 'racing' parts? (or, more correctly, what bad things could happen if I go with the cheapest possible?) My gut tells me: Clutches only 'burn out' when you are shifting and such... I won't be shifting... I won't need to worry about wearing out the clutch. Where is my logic wrong?

VW Bug Clutch alignment tool ... that's what I need, right?

A search for 'gland nut' turns up all sorts of things with that name but they are clearly not all the same. Some are over $50, some are under $5. Given I don't even know where this part would go, let alone what is the right one... can you point me in the right direction?

I don't see any 'dowels' on this flywheel... let alone 4 or 8 ... how many does this one have?

I seem to be able to find lightened flywheels on theSamba... again, no mention of the number of 'dowels', which you said was important.



> There are a whole bunch of performance bug shops that sell these things.


Other than jbugs... I can't find anything. Perhaps my googling is failing me.



> I purchased an adaptor made by Rebirth Auto. Perfect and will fit a 9" Warp9 out of the box.


I got mine from CanEV ... as I said a little higher in the thread. Do I need extra parts now? From what I could tell Rebirth and CanEV had effectively the same product. (adapter plate and coupler)

How did this turn into needing to drop almost $500 bucks? Shoot -- at this rate, I should just not sell the engine (how is the engine barely worth more than just a few parts taken from the clutch!?!?!)


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## Guest (Sep 4, 2011)

I'll answer more when I get home. You can burn a clutch if the torque applied is greater than the holding power of the pressure plate. If you burn a clutch while shifting your slipping the clutch way too much.


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## piotrsko (Dec 9, 2007)

My $02 (USD): I'm not an expert, but I bought my 72 super NEW and put 750,000 miles on it. I've also owned everything But a transporter and safari. BTW you need to lift the rear almost 3 ft high to clear a fan shroud, less if you take it off before hand (a real pain).

you may need the gland nut if the adapter from CANEV requires it, but their picture doesn't show it requiring one. and I can't see any motor shaft being large enough for the hole. Motor shaft would have to be about 2" dia to have enough meat to mount bolt. Most VW only parts places have a couple of used ones laying about for about $5. you may need the pilot bearing however. Mic the pilot shaft of the trans and the hub hole. the hub hole needs to be at least about .010" larger than the shaft. You can heat up the starter ring gear and whack it off if it offends you, but it is really handy for installing the clutch and flywheel stuff.

I would pull the pressure plate and clutch disc from the used motor, leave the flywheel in place unless you have monster tools. There is usually 250 ftlbs of torque on the big nut, and some idiots use "forever" lock-tite to install. I've had to use up to 1500 lbs to get the @#$%^& nut off.

I'd go stock 200 mm flywheel unless your trans is a pre 65 swing axle. once again, used/remanufactured about $50. 200 mm clutches are "lightened" to hold the 200 mm clutch disc anyways. Canev shows a 4 dowel pattern on their hub (4 holes not tapped, 4 bolt holes tapped), but 2 on the stock flywheel will work just fine up to 100 hp using a stock clutch set-up. the stock flywheel has 4 bolts and 2 dowel pins on the engine side. racing flywheels use 4 dowel pins between the 4 bolts.

If you want cheap VW parts, generally a local place that specializes in bugs will have reasonable stuff. J-bugs and ETC are concerned with racing applications and "bling".


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## galeson (Oct 25, 2009)

I would agree to look locally for good used vw parts. I think you should get a copy of the magazine "Dune buggies and hot vws." There are lots of advertisers with competitive prices. Some of the largest advertisers are:
www.socalautoparts.com
www.mooreparts.com
www.pacificcustoms.com
www.vwparts.net
Their prices are a little less than you quoted. Also the clutch kit includes the pressure plate.


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## EVfun (Mar 14, 2010)

Excellent list of online VW parts houses Galeson. I use the first one and the last one fairly often. I also use California Import Parts Ltd.

You are running a 600 peak amp controller so I think a stock clutch will work out fine for you Lowcrawler. Heavy pressure plates make for a hard clutch and some times break the clutch cable tube free (and fixing that sucks.) Which motor are you going to stuff in the back of the Bug?

You linked to a fine picture of a stock flywheel. There is a hollow bolt that goes through the hole in the center and into the end of the crankshaft, called the gland nut, that holds the pilot bearing inside. This may not used with the adapter, then the pilot bearing would be placed directly in the shaft adapter hub. The VW Beetle has a very small flywheel flange -- no flange at all. It is just the 55 mm (2.16 inch) end of the crank (also the engine main bearing diameter) that the flywheel is bolted to. Because of this, there is a lot of aftermarket work put into getting a lot of power through there that I don't see you needing at 600 amps. Here is a picture of an affordable 8 dowel lightened flywheel.

Your motor adapter will include a shaft coupler. It will have the attach pattern to bolt the flywheel to and a place to put the pilot bearing. You will just need a flywheel (preferably lightened as much as possible), a pressure plate, a clutch disc, pilot bearing, and possibly a gland nut. Here is a picture of the Canadian EV VW Beetle adapter. Here is a picture of another adapter kit that shows a taper lock shaft adapter.

I'm a fan of a clutchless adapter, but I think you would pretty much have to have a machine shop make it to your design. I used a VW Bus input to main shaft coupler, turned down to 1.125 inches with a keyway added, inserted into a Ruland CLC shaft coupler.


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## piotrsko (Dec 9, 2007)

I agree on the clutchless, BUT with a new / rebuilt trans that has good fresh synchro's, otherwise it takes forever to shift. shouldn't need to only use 2nd and 4 th.

modding a 2 dowel flywheel just takes a metric equivalent 5/16 SHARP drill bit and a bit of precision measuring. Slowly drill until the drill just about breaks through the flywheel (about 1/2 dowel length).


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## Travdude (May 11, 2009)

The CAN EV adapter has 4 dowels, so getting a flywheel with 8 won't help much.










It's a lot of information Lowcrawler, keep learning, your doing great!


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## lowcrawler (Jun 27, 2011)

Thanks for the help, guys... My mind is still reeling, but I'm trying to comprehend it all.  Sentences like this


> Mic the pilot shaft of the trans and the hub hole.


 don't yet fit with any version of english that I understand.   But I'll get there...  

I contacted the buyer and he said he had all the various clutch-based parts so I could take them out if I wanted and he didn't really need them. I replied: I'll let you have it for $50 cheaper if you come do it _with_ me. He agreed. 

He showed up and was super nice, very friendly, intersted in my car (he drives a '68) etc. We took off the pressure plate and slid off the clutch disc in about 3 minutes...and then he goes: "you know what, removing this flywheel is going to break seals and cause me all sorts of extra work... how about I give you $50 and we just keep it on there".

I said: "I found a place online where I can get a lightened one that will meet my needs for $85..." He said okay, we lifted the engine into his SUB, and we parted ways -- him with the engine w/ flywheel attached and me with $740 (neither of us had a $5) and a pressure plate and clutch disc.

I'm not unhappy with how it all went down; in fact I'm pretty pleased. After removing the pressure plate, I saw the gland nut EVfun described and said "and that's the gland nut, right?" and he said "Yep". You all would have been very proud.    

Now the question is... what all do I still need? I'm away from my house right now so trying to sort it out on my own without actually looking at the parts might be a waste of time... but I suspect, based on what EVfun and Travdude had to say I just need a lightened flywheel (w/ 4 dowel holes as that's all my coupler has) and a pilot bearing. Piotrsko seems to imply I wouldn't need a gland nut on the CanEV adapter. Travedude, you used this adapter... what did you all need?

It's my understanding that after connecting everything again (flywheel, clutch disc, presure plate) I'll need to get it balanced. What kind of place does that kind of work? Should I be looking for a transmission shop? 

I'm going to stop doing 'real work' for a bit this afternoon and see if I can mentalize all this while I've got the parts in my hands... hopefully that'll help.

Seriously, thanks again for all your patience... I promise not to be so much of a pain once I'm past this part... haha!


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## Travdude (May 11, 2009)

lowcrawler said:


> Piotrsko seems to imply I wouldn't need a gland nut on the CanEV adapter. Travedude, you used this adapter... what did you all need?
> 
> It's my understanding that after connecting everything again (flywheel, clutch disc, presure plate) I'll need to get it balanced. What kind of place does that kind of work? Should I be looking for a transmission shop?


I used a lightened flywheel and the larger chrome moly glandnut. In the picture, you can see that the pilot bearing is actually part of the gland nut, it is tucked inside. So, if you buy a gland nut, you will get the bearing with it.

For the balance, I had a machine shop do it without the pressure plate.


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## lowcrawler (Jun 27, 2011)

Okay -- big day, got the motor connected up and spun the wheels!!

I solved my 'wobble' problem from a previous thread... so that's not the cause of this issue.

Here is what I'm experiencing and how it went down:

Got motor/flywheel/pressure plate up into the engine bay and onto the transmission; one way that helped was removing the bolts on the lower 'ears' of the transmission so it sat down another inch. Once up and on, I put the 4 bolts in for the adapter plate but I did not tighten them down -- just the nut on the end to ensure they didn't slide out.

I then tightened the bolts down as far as they would go, re-lifted the tranny and reconnected those 'ears'. When I applied power - nothing. The motor worked (you could hear a clunk when I connected it the first try) but nothing spun. I let it sit for like 2 seconds and the jumper cables I'm using actually started to weld to my battery.

Dang.

So, I tried to diagnose... I had a friend attempt to spin the wheels -- they would also not spin. (I have one blocked up stationary and he tried to spin the other... forcing the tranny to spin). If I unblocked the other wheel, spinning one wheel would spin the other in the opposite direction - as it always does.

I went in and push in the clutch and then my friend was able to spin the wheel (which would, in turn, spin the motor). 

So to summarize, clutch pedal untouched -- no spinning the wheels or motor. Clutch pedal pushed in, the wheel would spin and spin the motor.


So this made me think that everything was simply too 'tight'... so I loosed the bolts, letting the adapter plate come off the bell housing about 1/8" and I applied 12V again... TADA, wheels moved!!!!

But there was a sickening grinding/clunking noise. I made a video of it: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mDbC_qdOibo

I'm going to investigate further, but I was wondering if any of you have any ideas...


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## Ziggythewiz (May 16, 2010)

lowcrawler said:


> So this made me think that everything was simply too 'tight'... so I loosed the bolts, letting the adapter plate come off the bell housing about 1/8" and I applied 12V again... TADA, wheels moved!!!!


I'm clutchless so won't speak too much about your setup, but have you measured everything precisely and ran the numbers? With mine you stick everything together and the variable is how far onto the motor shaft the coupler is. With my first coupler it had to be nearly all the way down on the motor shaft, except for 1/16-1/8" at the end. The coupler I have on now is shorter so that's not the critical spot, but it still has to be on within a 1/4" window for ideal spline contact. Not on far enough and it will be too tight, as you say, and on too far and you're not fully on the spline.


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## Guest (Oct 9, 2011)

First be sure you are using the right pressure plate and throwout combination. Either early or late but not mixed. Then be sure to check that the pressure plate is not binding on the transmission case anywhere. My first setup went like this:

Installed the flywheel/throwout properly. Installed the motor adaptor plate properly and tightened it all the way. Went in to check the clutch and it felt great. Shifted fine. Applied power and nothing. Not a single blasted thing. Not even a clunk. No movement at all. Dang, what was wrong. Pulled it out and had a look and after a few minutes of looking I noticed a very small area near where the throwout bearing arm shaft came out of the transmission had a small indentation where the metal was clean and shiny. I took a grinding tool I had and ground down that spot a bit then tried again. This time I got a tiny clunk but still no go. Again I removed the motor and I was able to see a new spot. Looked a bit deeper. Took off more and continued doing this until I had removed enough from a small spot that interfered with the pressure plate which kept the motor from turning. Once enough material was removed I cleaned it up and smoothed out the ground out spot a bit and then installed the motor. All was good and every thing worked as it should. There was a point when the motor would spin but clunk. It was because the spot was still not quite ground out enough. 

However your problem could be a mixed and matched pressure plate setup as well as a small spot that is too high then needs knocked down. 

Have a look at this youtube video. I will be using the new style setup and will leave the old style one for another vehicle. 






Pete 


That tranny trick works pretty good. Did you figure that one on your own or take my suggestion which I have posted many times about fitting the motor into the VW? Allows you to install a motor without cutting the apron.


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## galeson (Oct 25, 2009)

I had the same problem. With me it was the pressure plate hitting the transmission housing. I only had to grind away about an eighth of an inch but it was in more than one place. Do a little grinding reassemble, do a little more etc.


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## EVfun (Mar 14, 2010)

Wait a minute... If you are having the pressure plate hitting the throwout bearing arm or inside of the bell housing doesn't that mean you have the flywheel and clutch installed in an incorrect location? I've never done a clutched air cooled VW but I have done a couple of clutched conversions and I made it a point to put the flywheel, and therefore the face of the clutch, in the original location. The poor gearbox shouldn't realize that it isn't the original engine poked in there.


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## gojo (Feb 1, 2011)

lowcrawler said:


> Still in the extremely initial planning stages. I'll try to follow the format requested here.
> 
> I've spend a couple dozen hours reading general information (you know, glancing over the main 'gist' of blogs and forums rather than trying to nail down part numbers.... just becoming acquainted) and watch all of KiwiEV's youtube videos. It seems 'doable' - though my time is limited in the summer which is why I originally was looking for an already-converted or hiring someone to do it for me.
> *My skills*
> ...


I am using a ceramic hair dryer I got for $19.95 for keeping frost off the windshield. The relay switch was $98, but I could have got it for less off from ebay.

I took out all the original heating stuff. The old blower and heater core. I took out all the vents but the ones to the windows, and connected the hair drier. I thought I would have to replace the 120 volt ac motor in the hair drier, but it works with my 120 volt dc pack.


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## Guest (Oct 10, 2011)

EVfun said:


> Wait a minute... If you are having the pressure plate hitting the throwout bearing arm or inside of the bell housing doesn't that mean you have the flywheel and clutch installed in an incorrect location? I've never done a clutched air cooled VW but I have done a couple of clutched conversions and I made it a point to put the flywheel, and therefore the face of the clutch, in the original location. The poor gearbox shouldn't realize that it isn't the original engine poked in there.


The problem comes from newer style pressure plates. Also the problem can be that the magic distance is off a touch. My case was the newer style pressure plates used today vs back in the mid to late 70's. The distance as off on mine by very little but enough. I ground only a tiny bit at a time so I would not grind a hole in the transmission. I had no clue how little I'd actually need to remove. But that tiny bit that was there was enough to hold the motor stationary if tightened fully. The area of the transmission is not critical but you still should not take much or need to take much off. A tiny bit will hold it fast. You need to check. A pain for sure but you need know. 




Pete


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## Guest (Oct 10, 2011)

lowcrawler said:


> I solved my 'wobble' problem from a previous thread... so that's not the cause of this issue.


What about the wobble? You said that was not the issue so you seem to have found the issue but did not tell us what you found? We need to know so others can learn. 

What was the wobble problem and how did you rectify the issue? 

Pete


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## lowcrawler (Jun 27, 2011)

The pressure plate and clutch are original.... so i suspect it's not a model year mix up...

I got it to spin clean and quiet by loosening the adapter plate-to-bell housing connection and dropping a set of washers in the (so there is a 1mm gap between the bell housing and the adapter plate) gap. Still relatively difficult to spin the wheel (with the other blocked up) but it does go smooth and silent). When I put it in neutral the wheel spins super duper easy. Does that sound like normal operation?

I'll try to get some vids tomorrow... but I'm a bit low on time...


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## Guest (Oct 10, 2011)

What about the Wobble? You will need to find the point of contact on the transmission bell housing. Remove it and then put it back on. Keeping the spacers will keep the bell housing open to junk and will set back the clutch on the transmission shaft. Utilize the full length of the trans shaft. If your not contacting all the splines depth you are at risk of loosing the splines. 

Pete 

Wobble is my concern. With both the wheels off the ground in gear does it spin good when power is applied lightly? What about with both wheels on the ground? Does it move ok?


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## Guest (Oct 10, 2011)

I understand about the time constraints. No problem.


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## lowcrawler (Jun 27, 2011)

Ziggythewiz said:


> I'm clutchless so won't speak too much about your setup, but have you measured everything precisely and ran the numbers?


I'm not sure what I would have been measuring or what numbers I would have ran? Can you elaborate?

I can't really 'back up' anything -- the coupler is on as far as it can go, the flywheel, pressure plate, and adapter plate are as well... What exactly should I be looking at to measure/run numbers on?



gottdi said:


> First be sure you are using the right pressure plate and throwout combination. Either early or late but not mixed.


 Like I said, this is the same pressure plate and transmission that was in the car when it was an ICE. I suspect that means they work together. Is this not true?



gottdi said:


> That tranny trick works pretty good. Did you figure that one on your own or take my suggestion which I have posted many times about fitting the motor into the VW? Allows you to install a motor without cutting the apron.


You keep mentioning this, but lowing the angle of the transmission by the 2-or-so degrees does NOT allow you to install a Warp9 without cutting the apron; it still requires extensive apron modification.
Have you put a Warp9 in standard beetle without cutting the apron? If so, can I see photos/video of this? 



gottdi said:


> What about the wobble? You said that was not the issue so you seem to have found the issue but did not tell us what you found? We need to know so others can learn.
> 
> What was the wobble problem and how did you rectify the issue?





gottdi said:


> What about the Wobble?


In order to keep information reasonably searchable and to my build thread coherent, I put the wobble-related issues in the wobble-related thread. Here is a link to that thread.

When I put 2 washers in as spacers, as I outline in this video here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b2VEnuOGcKA




> Remove it and then put it back on.


 That is a significant process, especially given I'm not sure it would solve the problem. I'm really looking to get this thing rolling, THEN maybe come back in and do little tweaks like that. Am I risking long-term damage by having the adapter plate off by the width of 2 washers?



> Keeping the spacers will keep the bell housing open to junk


 This may sound stupid, but wouldn't a bead of caulk suit me well -- at least for a month or two until I can get the rest of the car in nice working order? Obviously I'd re-seat the washers around the adapter plate bolts so they couldn't fall off... 



> ...and will set back the clutch on the transmission shaft. Utilize the full length of the trans shaft. If your not contacting all the splines depth you are at risk of loosing the splines.


Really? The spined area is like 1.75" long... utilizing 3-4% less of it is going to cause them all to shear off? That doesn't seem to sound right... what am I missing?



gottdi said:


> With both the wheels off the ground in gear does it spin good when power is applied lightly? What about with both wheels on the ground? Does it move ok?


My build is nowhere near complete -- so I can't take it out and drive to see how it moves. But when I apply 12V to the motor, the wheels spin well and quietly Here is a video of that: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Ijrp1m3g78 (the car was in reverse gear in this video)

Now my main concern is that it's really quite difficult to turn the tires when the power is off... not impossible (still only takes one hand... but my wife required 2), but certainly like 10x as hard as turning the wheel when the clutch is depressed, for instance. Is that typical?


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## Ziggythewiz (May 16, 2010)

lowcrawler said:


> I'm not sure what I would have been measuring or what numbers I would have ran? Can you elaborate?
> 
> Really? The spined area is like 1.75" long... utilizing 3-4% less of it is going to cause them all to shear off? That doesn't seem to sound right... what am I missing?


I mean all the motor/adapter/transmisison numbers

When I got my kit I assumed it would all fit, so I stuck it together and spent hours trying to get it the last bit on. Eventually I ran the numbers:

eg: my motor shaft sticks out 3", original shaft coupler was 5", transmission shaft stuck out ~2.5"

with bell housing adapter I had 5 1/4" space to fit all the above (coupler mostly overlaps shaft and spline) but just the motor and transmission shafts added up to 5 1/2" = impossible. I trimmed 1/2" from the tranny shaft and with the coupler overlapping the motor 2 15/16" I ended up with the 1" coupler spline directly centered on the 1 1/2" or so of exposed spline.


Losing 3-4% of the spline will not matter much, but you want to know exactly how much spline contact you have (my coupler max is 1" so even 1/4" is not 3-4% but 25%)


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## lowcrawler (Jun 27, 2011)

Ziggythewiz said:


> Thanks - I didn't measure anything. I basically figured like this: Everything is stock dimensions with the exception of the CanEV coupler and adapter plate. The CanEV kit was made for this car and likely has the right dimensions... so I jammed it all together.
> 
> Perhaps not the smartest thing... I guess I'll have to pull it apart or something if things don't end up working right. Though, really, I'm not sure what I would modify... everything directly connected to the motor is in as 'tight' as it can go 'in' and nothing other than the tranny input shaft is 'cuttable'. Hrm...
> 
> ...


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## lowcrawler (Jun 27, 2011)

So as part of keeping my backseat stock, I planned my battery box to be extremely tight.

My 'top' 24 batteries will actually sit on top of my 'bottom' 24 batteries... separated by 1x1's. (and perhaps a rubberized gasket material to help with vibrations)

Anyway - as I put the 1x1's in and started test fitting things in the battery box, I am concerned that the wood actually touches the terminals. I was thinking I could just router the innner bottom edge of the wood so it wouldn't be touching ... but a slight unseen shift as I hit a huge bump could easily bring things back into contact. 

Is this a recipe for fire? 

Video of what I'm talking about here: 
http://youtu.be/pJCD1sQ-xSc


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## EVfun (Mar 14, 2010)

I wouldn't use wood. Perhaps some nice plastic like this.


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## lowcrawler (Jun 27, 2011)

1) You wouldn't use wood because it warps, doesn't look as good, and can rot.... or you wouldn't use wood because my setup is unsafe and is going to start a fire?


2) I'm getting to the point where I need to start being able to charge.  So that means unwrap my charger. I found this: http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showthread.php?p=267435#post267435


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## EVfun (Mar 14, 2010)

Sorry for not noticing your question earlier. I wouldn't use wood because it can be conductive if even slightly damp. I think the other question got answered in that thread.


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## lowcrawler (Jun 27, 2011)

Thanks.

Plastic is is then, I guess.

... another 1 week delay on the project.

It's amazing how the actual amount of work that goes into these isn't really that bad. It's the weeks and weeks of waiting for esoteric parts to come from all around the country.


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## Ziggythewiz (May 16, 2010)

If you don't want to wait you can always rig a quick plywood mockup to use until you get your plastic. It's good to fit everything on first anyway to prevent the swiss cheese effect.

Also, be sure to think about other things than need to be done. There's always one thing that's priority, but that doesn't mean the project needs to be delayed if there's anything else you can work on while waiting.


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