# [EVDL] A123 L5 battery



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Any know about Firefly Energy lead acid batteries?

http://www.fireflyenergy.com/

On Wed, May 28, 2008 at 6:28 PM, nicolas drouin <[email protected]>


> wrote:
> 
> > On 5/28/08, Jon Wagner <[email protected]>
> 
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Marty,

I am involved in the trucking industry and have been following Firefly. 
Below is a reply I received 2 days ago from them. That's the latest word 
that I know of.

Reguards,
Jim


Dear Mr Foreman:

The Oasis battery is currently in limited production, with sample product 
being delivered to a limited number of fleet and OE accounts, one of whom, 
I'm pretty sure, is Peterbilt. We do not have batteries available for 
immediate purchase. Please contact me during the latter part of the summer 
for an update. Thanks very much for your interest.

Best Regards,
Dan Stewart
Firefly Energy



----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Marty Mercer" <[email protected]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, May 28, 2008 11:28 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] A123 L5 battery


> Any know about Firefly Energy lead acid batteries?
>
> http://www.fireflyenergy.com/
>
> On Wed, May 28, 2008 at 6:28 PM, nicolas drouin <[email protected]>


> > wrote:
> >
> >> On 5/28/08, Jon Wagner <[email protected]
> 
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

>>> In my *opinion* products such as Kokam's and ElectroVaya's are the way
>>> to go with regards to large format battery technology. The laminate

I've been keeping an eye on kokam...
do you have any pricing/purchasing information for kokam?
Jon

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

From:http://www.proev.com/P1Batt.htm

" Retail price is $1.60 per watt-hr. Therefore, the price of a Kokam
100 amp-hr cell is $592 US."

I'm watching these, too.

Brian



> Jon Wagner <[email protected]> wrote:
> >>>> In my *opinion* products such as Kokam's and ElectroVaya's are the way
> >>>> to go with regards to large format battery technology. The laminate
> >
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

I am going to the electrovaya office this morning. Is there something I can
do for you? I live close by.

Werner

On Thu, May 29, 2008 at 11:48 PM, nicolas drouin <[email protected]>


> wrote:
> 
> > On 5/29/08, Jon Wagner <[email protected]>
> 
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

The thing about kokam that is scaring me off right now is that nasty >800 
charge cycles to 80% capacity...
Thundersky lists >2000 cycles for the same discharge level. I know you can 
never be sure about specs, but that's a big difference.

In case you care: I've been head-to-head comparing Kokam'1 100Ah cell with 
Thundersky's 90Ah cell.

Kokam's 100Ah cell lists peak discharge current at 800A = 8C, wheras the 
thundersky lists 10C. Also TS lists 3C charge, while Kokam lists 2C.

Kokam has a slight edge in weight at 2.7Kg vs. 3Kg. I also really worry 
about the integrity of Kokam's main tabs. That's just me, but I really like 
the idea of positive locking threads for connections. Making a pack out of 
Kokam's cells looks like it could be a bit of design/fabrication effort too, 
so the weight might be a wash anyway.

BIGGEST ISSUE (for me): compare Kokam's $1.60/Wh retail, to thundersky's 
sweetspot cell - the 3.6V90Ah, which is much closer to $.50/Wh. The Kokam 
cell is going to have to be a lot better than the datasheet, and the 
thundersky a lot worse to make the economics work out for me. Even if they 
have a 5-10% DOA rate, TS look damn good to me.
Jon

>> > I've been keeping an eye on kokam...
>> > do you have any pricing/purchasing information for kokam?
>>
>> Personally, no. But a quick google yielded:
>> http://www.proev.com/P1Batt.htm
>> Who states a 1.60$/Wh retail and actually has a running pack (and a
>> very impressive project).
>>
>> Here's what I figure: if AzureDynamics if going with Kokam, (for the
>> fleet of Sentra's they are working on in Mexico city), I'm certainly
>> ready to keep it in the running.


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> The thing about kokam that is scaring me off right now is that nasty >800
> charge cycles to 80% capacity...
> Thundersky lists >2000 cycles for the same discharge level. I know you
> can
> never be sure about specs, but that's a big difference.

Yes but it's Thundersky. They have a reputation for being less than
honest with their specs.
Since they don't come with any warranty, what are you going to do if it
turns out they are only good for <400 cycles ?

Kokam, on the other hand, has a reputation for being striaght shooters and
honest about their product.

Thundersky's specs are meaningless since they don't guarantee them and
wouldn't honor the guarantee if they did.

I'd go with the Kokams


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Yes but it's Thundersky. They have a reputation for being less than
> honest with their specs.
> Since they don't come with any warranty, what are you going to do if it
> turns out they are only good for <400 cycles ?

That is true, but at about a third the cost - it would still be a better bet 
to buy two sets of TS cells that radically underperform than one set of 
Kokam.

Anyway all this is going to be very dependant on the quality of the BMS 
monitoring each cell and the use scenario.
Jon 

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

A while back a group of EVDL members arranged a group buy from TS. TS had
a bunch of batteries that didn't pass their crappy QC so they decided to
offload them on the Stupid Americans. They KNEW they were bad cells and
they sold them anyway.

These days folks that are smart go to the factory in China and test the
batteries before buying them. They end up rejecting many of them that
pass Thundersky's QC.
If TS is willing to sell known defective batteries to us, what do you
think they are going to do with ones that pass their "QC" but aren't
purchased by the above buyers?

Even folks who buy LOTs of batteries from TS, have had batteries that
looked good initially but failed within the first year. Internal
corrosion caused by poor quality control during assembly.

Thundersky NEVER replaces defective cells regardless of who buys them or
why they failed. Well, I've heard rumors that they might honor their
warranty for Chinese customers, but never for foreign customers.

If you're comfortable taking that kind of crap shoot with that much money,
knock yourself out.

>> Yes but it's Thundersky. They have a reputation for being less than
>> honest with their specs.
>> Since they don't come with any warranty, what are you going to do if it
>> turns out they are only good for <400 cycles ?
>
> That is true, but at about a third the cost - it would still be a better
> bet
> to buy two sets of TS cells that radically underperform than one set of
> Kokam.
>
> Anyway all this is going to be very dependant on the quality of the BMS
> monitoring each cell and the use scenario.
> Jon
>
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Peter-
Thanks for the info- certainly good to know that its a buyer beware 
situation over there...
Jon

>A while back a group of EVDL members arranged a group buy from TS. TS had
> a bunch of batteries that didn't pass their crappy QC so they decided to
> offload them on the Stupid Americans. They KNEW they were bad cells and
> they sold them anyway. 

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Jon Wagner wrote:
> >> Yes but it's Thundersky. They have a reputation for being less than
> >> honest with their specs.
> >> Since they don't come with any warranty, what are you going to do if it
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Yes, perhaps you're right. The sight though is about conversion, 
technical info what I did and how. It is not consumer complaint
site. However, I should mention my experience for others to know.

Again, as I mention, it may or may not represent what TS produces
today; some people report better outcome. Yet, I feel that the
company and info they produce cannot be trusted.

I'll mention my facts on the site without passing on judgments.
Everyone will have to make their own conclusions.

Victor
'91 ACRX - something different




> Dan Maker wrote:
> > Victor,
> >
> > I've been reading your CRX conversion and you mention that you are
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Thanks, until I read your comments here I'd been strongly considering
TS batteries, based on your use of them.



> Metric Mind <[email protected]> wrote:
> > Yes, perhaps you're right. The sight though is about conversion,
> > technical info what I did and how. It is not consumer complaint
> > site. However, I should mention my experience for others to know.
> ...


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