# A123 Batteries Built Into Modules [email protected]



## wakinyantanka (Apr 8, 2008)

I wanted to see if anyone would be interested in modules of the 26650 A123 cells. These are what I have come up with for my application and power requirements. Each module is [email protected], possibly with a built in equalizer if you would want that. 
We all know the capability of the A123 cells, which is why I chose them. These are new matched cells, not seconds or reclaimed dewalt packs.
Pricing will be $325.00/ module + shipping, no overseas shipping. Modules with equalizer will be a little more. I'm testing the water to see if there is serious interest in these. Please contact me via PM if interested.
Thanks


----------



## Technologic (Jul 20, 2008)

wakinyantanka said:


> I wanted to see if anyone would be interested in modules of the 26650 A123 cells. These are what I have come up with for my application and power requirements. Each module is [email protected], possibly with a built in equalizer if you would want that.
> We all know the capability of the A123 cells, which is why I chose them. These are new matched cells, not seconds or reclaimed dewalt packs.
> Pricing will be $325.00/ module + shipping, no overseas shipping. Modules with equalizer will be a little more. I'm testing the water to see if there is serious interest in these. Please contact me via PM if interested.
> Thanks


Pricey...


----------



## wakinyantanka (Apr 8, 2008)

Technologic said:


> Pricey...


Yes, However there is no substitute for quality. These cells are manufactured to the highest standards and they follow all patents, no knockoffs. These cells produce power on a level the Thundersky and other manufacturers dream about, 52c pulsed 30c continuous, can also be taken to 100% DOD without damage, quick charged in 15 minutes to a full charge with no damage. The only manufacturer even close to this quality is PSI who makes the Lifebatt product, which is also very good and worth the cost. There is something to be said for having that kind of peace of mind when investing in a battery pack. Knowing to that you have purchased a product that is made on the up and up, no cutting corners or cheating in the process.


----------



## ElectriCar (Jun 15, 2008)

Nah, greater than three times the expense of others that Technologic, David85 and others are testing. While I appreciate quality and American made goods, I won't pay that kind of price if my family made them.


----------



## notnull (Jul 30, 2008)

There is a place for these kind of cells in high power applications. I use the A123 cells everyday in an electric bicycle and I only have three packs of twenty cells in series that are paralleled together, so 20s3p cinfiguration. You could call it a 66V, 7ah pack and it weighs under ten pounds. I routinely discharge it at 60A and the voltage holds at three volts per cell with no problem. 

In an application where weight is a huge factor, like a motorcyle or a bicycle these cells are perfect. Probably not so useful for a vehicle where you can handle the extra weight.

Steve


----------



## speculawyer (Feb 10, 2009)

Great batteries ideal for small applications that need lots of power. But it is pretty hard to build a reasonably-priced electric car with them.

However, I am pretty happy to hear about that price . . . it is below the $1000/Kwh mark, so that is very good news!

$325/(3.3V * 115AH) = $856/Kwh


----------



## wakinyantanka (Apr 8, 2008)

I'm not certain I follow the extra weight statement...
My modules weigh in at 8lbs a piece, my total pack is under 400lbs, compared to LA that's a dream come true.



notnull said:


> There is a place for these kind of cells in high power applications. I use the A123 cells everyday in an electric bicycle and I only have three packs of twenty cells in series that are paralleled together, so 20s3p cinfiguration. You could call it a 66V, 7ah pack and it weighs under ten pounds. I routinely discharge it at 60A and the voltage holds at three volts per cell with no problem.
> 
> In an application where weight is a huge factor, like a motorcyle or a bicycle these cells are perfect. Probably not so useful for a vehicle where you can handle the extra weight.
> 
> Steve


----------



## notnull (Jul 30, 2008)

What I was saying is that an electric car can handle the extra weight of Lead Acid or some other battery type easier than a car.

I use the A123's on my bike and you would have to pry them out of my cold dead hand to get them away from me, but I don't use them in my car because 530lbs of lead for $2000 gives me all I need. 

If I was building a car for all out performance then it would be A123, but I just need it to go ten miles a day and keep up with traffic. It does that and more, so no reason to pay for something I don't need.

Steve


----------



## wakinyantanka (Apr 8, 2008)

notnull said:


> What I was saying is that an electric car can handle the extra weight of Lead Acid or some other battery type easier than a car.
> 
> I use the A123's on my bike and you would have to pry them out of my cold dead hand to get them away from me, but I don't use them in my car because 530lbs of lead for $2000 gives me all I need.
> 
> ...


Oh I see.
Yes I'm going for all out performance, that's why I am building from the ground up. I'm glad you have real world use of the A123 cells and speak highly of them.


----------



## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

Its encouraging to see a123 cells below the $1/wh mark, but prismatic cells are falling in price at the same rate, so its still about twice the price of prismatics.

I can appreciate the idea that these cells have much higher C rating, but in reality, we still don't have much in the way of motors or controllers to match them, so it's hard to justify the price.

wakinyantanka, I won't ask for your source, but I am curious to find out why these cells seem to be available all of the sudden. Last I heard if anyone wanted to get these cells in their electric car, they were forced to buy up a whole mess of Dewalt 36V batteries and tear them apart at a rediculous cost. 

What changed?


----------



## wakinyantanka (Apr 8, 2008)

david85 said:


> Its encouraging to see a123 cells below the $1/wh mark, but prismatic cells are falling in price at the same rate, so its still about twice the price of prismatics.
> 
> I can appreciate the idea that these cells have much higher C rating, but in reality, we still don't have much in the way of motors or controllers to match them, so it's hard to justify the price.
> 
> ...


Global recession?
Honestly I do not know. I had previously decided on the psi cells as they were in my price range for quality, but in my unending quest for better stuff for my prototype I found these. I had to ask twice if the price was correct. Low and behold shipped to my shop was the 26650 A123 cells. They have the A123 logo on them and everything, heck the supplier even matched their internal resistance for me. Needless to say I was jumping for joy.
So, I thought I would say something over here if there is anyone willing to go to the next level on their battery pack.
As far as controllers and motors available to handle that kind of power. I can get rebuilt 13" GE motors all day, of course I have to pay for them but they are readily available and with proper mods can easily handle a 2000 amp punch. Rest assured there is a controller on the way that will deliver those amps as well. (Hint Hint)


----------



## Jimdear2 (Oct 12, 2008)

david85 said:


> What changed?


Didn't I just hear that A123 lost out on the bid to build the Volt battery.

Think maybe the fact that they won't have OEMs shoving money into their hot hands while they sit back and watch the bank accounts grow.

Gosh, they just might need to compete to stay in business. 

I think that too many of these outfits are sitting back waiting for no effort licensing deals and OEM supply deals made all the better by the (I believe manufacturered ) unavailability. 

Hope we start to see some more compition as production capacity ramps up.

I like a lot of us want lithium but it's just out of reach.


----------



## wakinyantanka (Apr 8, 2008)

Jimdear2 said:


> Didn't I just hear that A123 lost out on the bid to build the Volt battery.
> 
> Think maybe the fact that they won't have OEMs shoving money into their hot hands while they sit back and watch the bank accounts grow.
> 
> ...


I though GM and A123 were building a production plant for the cells in Michigan? Could be wrong, I really don't follow that kind of thing.


----------



## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

I heard about the volt as well. GM has called off the a123 deal and is sourcing a company from korea last I heard. Explanation was that a123 is not ready for large scale production. Their loss could be our gain.

Now if only we could get a regen capable motor that could run the mid 90s consistently for efficency, and weigh under 150 lbs. Then we would be set.

Sorry wakinyantanka, I won't be in on this buy but I wish you all the best luck. Offering something like this doesn't often get much gratitude yet you still keep trying. (I read some of your previous threads)


----------



## wakinyantanka (Apr 8, 2008)

david85 said:


> I heard about the volt as well. GM has called off the a123 deal and is sourcing a company from korea last I heard. Explanation was that a123 is not ready for large scale production. Their loss could be our gain.
> 
> Now if only we could get a regen capable motor that could run the mid 90s consistently for efficency, and weigh under 150 lbs. Then we would be set.
> 
> Sorry wakinyantanka, I won't be in on this buy but I wish you all the best luck. Offering something like this doesn't often get much gratitude yet you still keep trying. (I read some of your previous threads)


I appreciate that. The other suppliers I had contacted fell through on me. It was then I decided to only do business with companies that do things on the up and up. I lost some money on a wire transfer to one Chinese supplier and that was enough for me. I'll probably offer custom packs on ebay or something using these cells. I think its a pretty good deal considering I'll be doing the assembly of the modules.


----------



## notnull (Jul 30, 2008)

Your price of $325 is really a good deal for these cells. It looks like you get 50 cells built into a module for that price. I harvested mine from Dewalt packs off Ebay back when they were just under $100 per pack shipped, so I paid $10 per cell. 

As I said, I have used them pretty hard in the bicycle (10C bursts) for over a year and I can't tell any difference in performance between now and when I first built the pack.

How much trouble would it be for you to reconfigure the pack into 2s25p (instead of 1s50p), so I have a 6.6V, 57.5 Ah module. If I could get this for $325, I would be in for a least a couple. I just don't need more capacity than that and I know this configuration will handle 500A bursts with no problem.

Steve


----------



## wakinyantanka (Apr 8, 2008)

notnull said:


> Your price of $325 is really a good deal for these cells. It looks like you get 50 cells built into a module for that price. I harvested mine from Dewalt packs off Ebay back when they were just under $100 per pack shipped, so I paid $10 per cell.
> 
> As I said, I have used them pretty hard in the bicycle (10C bursts) for over a year and I can't tell any difference in performance between now and when I first built the pack.
> 
> ...


Reconfiguring is no trouble at all. PM me and let me know the details of what you need.


----------



## Bowser330 (Jun 15, 2008)

So...if i have a controller that can only take maximum 250V...what will these be charged at when they are 100% charged? 3.8? 4.2?

Because if they are 3.8V fully charged, I have to keep my count in series down to 65 (cells) so I don't exceed the max for my controller...right?


----------



## wakinyantanka (Apr 8, 2008)

Bowser330 said:


> So...if i have a controller that can only take maximum 250V...what will these be charged at when they are 100% charged? 3.8? 4.2?
> 
> Because if they are 3.8V fully charged, I have to keep my count in series down to 65 (cells) so I don't exceed the max for my controller...right?


I've found a good rule of thumb is to calculate using the nominal cell voltage.


----------



## notnull (Jul 30, 2008)

This is how I have been using mine. I have 20 cells in series and I charge them to 3.7V per cell, so hot off the charger I am at 74V for the pack. It drops down to the 3.3V per cell nominal value pretty quickly after you start draining the cells. 

Steve


----------



## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

I think it's great that you are doing this. Price is still a little out of my range for a car but getting closer. If I were doing a bike I'd almost certainly go this route.
GM went with LG Chem cells from Korea, claiming A123 didn't seem ready for their volume and didn't have enough of a track record yet, and GM didn't want cylindrical cells. That might be why we are seeing these become more available. Let's hope the trend continues.


----------



## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

This guy is building an Attack with A123 cells and an ACP drivetrain. Could be a Tesla killer 
http://www.attackforums.com/showthread.php?t=2419


----------



## speculawyer (Feb 10, 2009)

JRP3 said:


> This guy is building an Attack with A123 cells and an ACP drivetrain. Could be a Tesla killer
> http://www.attackforums.com/showthread.php?t=2419


A123 batteries and an AC-150 propulsion system? The guy must have money to burn.


----------



## Technologic (Jul 20, 2008)

speculawyer said:


> A123 batteries and an AC-150 propulsion system? The guy must have money to burn.


With a few burnt neurons I'm sure


----------



## CroDriver (Jan 8, 2009)

JRP3 said:


> This guy is building an Attack with A123 cells and an ACP drivetrain. Could be a Tesla killer
> http://www.attackforums.com/showthread.php?t=2419


What a cool project! A shame that AC Propulsion has no interest in supplying their AC-150 systems the do it yourself crowd.


----------



## wakinyantanka (Apr 8, 2008)

JRP3 said:


> This guy is building an Attack with A123 cells and an ACP drivetrain. Could be a Tesla killer
> http://www.attackforums.com/showthread.php?t=2419


Ok I have to give props to this guy. Obviously deep pockets, but kudos on the battery pack design. I may rethink how I have been building my packs.


----------



## notnull (Jul 30, 2008)

Here is another pack build for high power use.

http://ssi-racing.com/photos/new_pack/index.htm


----------



## jshanab (Mar 18, 2009)

wakinyantanka, Do you have pictures of your packs? How are you doing the interconnects? Bettery tab welder? When you were talking about a BMS for the 50 cells in parallel, that made little sense to me without some context. Is that one LVC/bypass regulator? 
How are you packaging the modules?

My needs are more like 288V 60ah pack !


----------



## wakinyantanka (Apr 8, 2008)

jshanab said:


> wakinyantanka, Do you have pictures of your packs? How are you doing the interconnects? Bettery tab welder? When you were talking about a BMS for the 50 cells in parallel, that made little sense to me without some context. Is that one LVC/bypass regulator?
> How are you packaging the modules?
> 
> My needs are more like 288V 60ah pack !


I never said anything about BMS, I said it may be possible to get a built in equalizer for each module.
We use a tab welder for attaching the batteries to the end plate.
[email protected]=88 cells series, 26 cells parallel. We would do 26 cell modules, 3.3v @ 60AH then you would series those modules per your application.


----------



## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

I'd like to see some pictures too, even if I can't buy right now. It's like battery pr0n


----------



## wakinyantanka (Apr 8, 2008)

JRP3 said:


> I'd like to see some pictures too, even if I can't buy right now. It's like battery pr0n


I'll post some pics as soon as I get a new digital camera. Our shop was burglarized in January and that is the one thing that was taken that I haven't got replaced yet. It has not been a high priority for me.


----------



## jshanab (Mar 18, 2009)

Sorry to hear about the burglary. I've known the feeling. 
I am trying to put together a tab welder myself. (got the miyachi head,transformer and IP217A, but no cables) Gotta have the correct kind of welder for these cells. 

I thought equalizer was being used to mean a type of BMS

Can't wait to see some photo's


----------



## frodus (Apr 12, 2008)

can't wait to see them!!!!


----------



## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

This is exactly what an A123 looks like if not,, they are not A123 cells from A123 Racing, There are many manufacturers out there using the name A123.
and in the last picture with the top up that looks like it would be positive is actually the negative end of the cell.

Is this what your look like????

Brian


----------



## wakinyantanka (Apr 8, 2008)

rctous said:


> This is exactly what an A123 looks like if not,, they are not A123 cells from A123 Racing, There are many manufacturers out there using the name A123.
> and in the last picture with the top up that looks like it would be positive is actually the negative end of the cell.
> 
> Is this what your look like????
> ...


Yes, they are identical to what you show in your pictures. These are genuine A123 cells.


----------



## Roy Von Rogers (Mar 21, 2009)

wakinyantanka said:


> I wanted to see if anyone would be interested in modules of the 26650 A123 cells. These are what I have come up with for my application and power requirements. Each module is [email protected], possibly with a built in equalizer if you would want that.
> We all know the capability of the A123 cells, which is why I chose them. These are new matched cells, not seconds or reclaimed dewalt packs.
> Pricing will be $325.00/ module + shipping, no overseas shipping. Modules with equalizer will be a little more. I'm testing the water to see if there is serious interest in these. Please contact me via PM if interested.
> Thanks


Tried sending pm's to you, but seems to not take, it shows 0 send.

Roy


----------



## wakinyantanka (Apr 8, 2008)

Roy Von Rogers said:


> Tried sending pm's to you, but seems to not take, it shows 0 send.
> 
> Roy


I got your pm's, you have one back.


----------



## wakinyantanka (Apr 8, 2008)

Just to let everyone know I've decided to contact A123 directly to see if they will sell to me. Of course it depends on their pricing but it may work out.


----------



## dreamer (Feb 28, 2009)

What would the dimensions of that 115AH module be ? Is orientation limited with cylindrical cells like these, or only with the prismatic cells ? (I was surprised to hear that the Thundersky large-format cells need to be mounted vertical).

What sort of BMS, balancing and charging are you planning to use on these modules ?


----------



## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

My guess is they are not orientation sensitive since they are used in battery powered tools which need to work in all directions.


----------



## wakinyantanka (Apr 8, 2008)

dreamer said:


> What would the dimensions of that 115AH module be ? Is orientation limited with cylindrical cells like these, or only with the prismatic cells ? (I was surprised to hear that the Thundersky large-format cells need to be mounted vertical).
> 
> What sort of BMS, balancing and charging are you planning to use on these modules ?


JRP3 is correct they can be mounted in any position. Dimensions are up to the user to some extent. I can build these in different configurations to suit the users needs. Cell dimensions can be found at A123 systems site so you can work out your design and let me know how you need them.


----------



## Bowser330 (Jun 15, 2008)

wakinyantanka said:


> Yes, However there is no substitute for quality. These cells are manufactured to the highest standards and they follow all patents, no knockoffs. These cells produce power on a level the Thundersky and other manufacturers dream about, 52c pulsed 30c continuous, can also be taken to 100% DOD without damage, *quick charged in 15 minutes to a full charge with no damage.* The only manufacturer even close to this quality is PSI who makes the Lifebatt product, which is also very good and worth the cost. There is something to be said for having that kind of peace of mind when investing in a battery pack. Knowing to that you have purchased a product that is made on the up and up, no cutting corners or cheating in the process.


Do you have any performance figures for max charge amps?

I plan to charge while i discharge and I want to charge as many amps as I discharge...

If i have a 250V setup then I would require 60A to cruise at highway speeds...I would like to be able to charge 60A in the pack at the sametime....


----------



## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

These are A123 cells, they can pretty much take whatever you can throw at them 30 C continuous and 52 max or higher. So if you use 100 amp packs you can put 3000 amps back into them, think that might be enough


----------



## jshanab (Mar 18, 2009)

Uh, Please take the previous statement with a grain of salt. High rate charging and discharging does effect cycle life and the damaging voltage is a little lower at higher amperages.


----------



## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

But to what degree? Has anyone killed an A123 pack yet? Doesn't Killacycle get something like 70C from the cells by heating them up? My point was that these cells should easily handle any regen loads you're likely to see.


----------



## jshanab (Mar 18, 2009)

I was just worried about the open ended statement. 
For example if the pack is fully charged and you start on a trip and go one block and then hit the brakes at the first stop sign with 100% regen, You are gonna cause damage without a good bms that can tell the regen system to back off, just as if you are chargering, you have severly *overvoltaged* cells

If you are at 50% SOC it would be close to impossible for the max your regen system can put out in *amps* *to exceed the max in amps* the A123's can take.

Two different problems, with the same input.


----------



## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

I assume that like other lithiums they are better off not being charged to 100%?


----------



## wakinyantanka (Apr 8, 2008)

Once again JRP3 is correct.
For any and all information on these cells please visit A123's site. It lists all the relevant information. 
That being said, these will handle more than you can dish out. Do not take that out of context, I'm referring to what you will and can do with your street legal EV.


----------



## wakinyantanka (Apr 8, 2008)

jshanab said:


> I was just worried about the open ended statement.
> For example if the pack is fully charged and you start on a trip and go one block and then hit the brakes at the first stop sign with 100% regen, You are gonna cause damage without a good bms that can tell the regen system to back off, just as if you are chargering, you have severly *overvoltaged* cells
> 
> If you are at 50% SOC it would be close to impossible for the max your regen system can put out in *amps* *to exceed the max in amps* the A123's can take.
> ...


No offense intended, but why would you spend the money on an A123 battery pack and not have a good BMS? One that would suit your specific vehicle. I think that would be a little short sited. Please do not take offense, I'm just stating the obvious.


----------



## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Here's a thought. While a BMS is a good idea, wouldn't better cells have less of a need for one? How close to each other are these cells out of the box, and do they tend to stay in balance once balanced? If so, your charger should be set to shut off before 100% anyway and your controller or monitor should give you a warning before a low voltage value, and if you're not taking the pack to the limit all the time, how much more "management" is really necessary?


----------



## jshanab (Mar 18, 2009)

wakinyantanka. Good point but there are people out there constantly suggesting the cells are self limiting and don't need a bms and that pack LVC is sufficient. Some of this comes from documentation of 2 and 4 cell packs that are limited to certain very low charge rates and are thermally connected. This just doesn't apply to packs with larger numbers of cells in series and in separate modules. 
There are also people who believe that you can charge from 20% to 80% to avoid BMS. While the better battery means less balancing capacity is needed and it may take longer for the imbalance to manifest itself in a problem, If you don't get to full (or empty) your BMS must be MORE sophisticated. LiFePO4 voltage is not a good indicator of SOC from 20 to 80% SOC, you have to count columbs and store capacity per cell and a factor for each cell. Then the system must start at a know state and return to it every X charges so it can learn as it goes. 
Personally, I think the yet unknow calendar life makes this additional work not worth it for large DIY EV packs. It probably is a great Idea for smaller packs being sold with warrantees (like a car company with a large development budget) [This and $3.50 will get you a decnt cup of coffee]


----------



## wakinyantanka (Apr 8, 2008)

JRP3 said:


> Here's a thought. While a BMS is a good idea, wouldn't better cells have less of a need for one? How close to each other are these cells out of the box, and do they tend to stay in balance once balanced? If so, your charger should be set to shut off before 100% anyway and your controller or monitor should give you a warning before a low voltage value, and if you're not taking the pack to the limit all the time, how much more "management" is really necessary?


This is a very good point. As far as I know these batteries, even after sitting on a shelf for a year, where very close. Something to look into.


----------



## dimitri (May 16, 2008)

JRP3 said:


> Here's a thought. While a BMS is a good idea, wouldn't better cells have less of a need for one? How close to each other are these cells out of the box, and do they tend to stay in balance once balanced? If so, your charger should be set to shut off before 100% anyway and your controller or monitor should give you a warning before a low voltage value, and if you're not taking the pack to the limit all the time, how much more "management" is really necessary?


I think you are wrong. If number of cells are connected in series, but charger sees them as a single unit, they will eventually get out of balance. The better cells are the longer it will take to get out of balance, but they will sooner or later. No matter how good they are each cell has just a tad difference in capacity and internal resistance. Those 2 factors will cause lower cells to get even lower and higher cells to get higer with each charge, increasing their difference further and further.

Most simple cell balancer ( voltage clamper ) circuit on each battery in series will take care of this issue. IMHO, that and a voltmeter or PakTrakr is the simplest and most cost effective BMS you can get these days.

Note that I said "battery in series", obviously you don't need balancers on each cell connected in parallel, only on a group of parallel cells that's connected in series with other groups of parallel cells.

I have just finished assembling cheapest cell balancers on the planet and charging my LiFePo4 pack using those, and it worked like a charm. Granted I don't have many charge cycles on them yet, but I am confident it would work based on other people's experiences posted in various forums.

Please note, I am not pushing to sell those, I think they will sell themselves, just sharing my thoughts.


----------



## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Yes I can see a reason for series module balancers, but with better cells they don't need to be too aggressive. Something like bblocher's Volt Blochers which bleed off some current during charging on the high cells so the low ones can catch up might be enough, as opposed to something more complicated and aggressive. Not to take the thread off topic but how do your balancers compare to bblochers, do you have a link to them?


----------



## dimitri (May 16, 2008)

JRP3 said:


> Yes I can see a reason for series module balancers, but with better cells they don't need to be too aggressive. Something like bblocher's Volt Blochers which bleed off some current during charging on the high cells so the low ones can catch up might be enough, as opposed to something more complicated and aggressive. Not to take the thread off topic but how do your balancers compare to bblochers, do you have a link to them?


My balancers are Volt Blochers from Brian, like I said "cheapest on the planet" 

You can get details in Thundersky experience thread just below...


----------



## CroDriver (Jan 8, 2009)

So the parallel cells don't need balancing? Ever?


----------



## dimitri (May 16, 2008)

CroDriver said:


> So the parallel cells don't need balancing? Ever?


 No, parallel cells are always balanced, just like one bigger cell made of number of smaller cells in parallel. Parrallel cells cannot be out of balance because they share the same voltage.


----------



## frodus (Apr 12, 2008)

CroDriver said:


> So the parallel cells don't need balancing? Ever?


Think about it, they all share + and - nodes... they are all balanced by nature... they will automatically equalize.

Try measuring the voltage on one cell in a parallel pack (without current flowing), then chose another cell in the same pack. I bet its the same voltage.


----------



## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

As I understand it voltage isn't a good indicator of SOC with lithium unless you're near max or min, so checking voltage might not tell you much. I was wondering about doing an initial balancing of cells by wiring them all in parallel and letting them sit that way for a while


----------



## dimitri (May 16, 2008)

Its not about voltage, its about amount of stored energy, which is basically number of extra electrons accumulated on the negative side. When cells are connected in parallell those electrons will flow from higher charged to lower charged cell until equilibrium is reached, which happens when cells are connected in parallel first time and as long as they stay connected in parallel, that equilibrium will not be disturbed.

Initial balance could be done the way you described, but its not very practical, IMHO.


----------



## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

I suppose if you have a large number of cells it might not be practical, but it seems like an easy way to start out with a perfectly balanced pack. Even with cell balancers it takes extra time and energy and maybe a few charge cycles to get them all the same.


----------



## Harold in CR (Sep 8, 2008)

Sure would be nice if Y'all would optimize your photos, so, us with dial-up could view them MUCH easier ???


----------



## jshanab (Mar 18, 2009)

there is still some debate going on about paralleled cells, but my feeling is that they will stay in step pretty good if permanently connected. There is an increase in internal resistance at end of charge that helps to balance cells in parallel. However, switching to parallel to balance will not work well. It is why the flying capacitor BMS doesn't work well. THere has to be a voltage differential. When two cells are connected to a charger the charger pushes 3.65 and the differential is the same in each cell (3.65-3.2 = .45V needed) When you take cells and put them in parallel and let them sit there, there is nothing to push over the internal resistance of one cell and down across the internal resistance of the other, they would have to be .45+.45 or .9V apart to do anything and that would be huge SOC difference fro LiFePo4.


----------



## dimitri (May 16, 2008)

JRP3 said:


> I suppose if you have a large number of cells it might not be practical, but it seems like an easy way to start out with a perfectly balanced pack. Even with cell balancers it takes extra time and energy and maybe a few charge cycles to get them all the same.


I still see an issue with this approach. If you do it this way all cells will be "perfectly balanced" as in "containing equal amount of energy", however, that doesn't mean equal SOC since each cell may have a tad different capacity. The goal of cell balancers is to bring all cells in the series connected string to equal SOC, although each cell will have difference in amount of stored energy, which is OK since we are not going to be draining them to zero SOC. In fact, the total AH capacity of series connected cells equals AH capacity of smallest cell in the string, extra capacity in other cells is useless for us.

So, bottom line, cell balancers, by shunting extra current, allow all cells to get to exact same SOC level, which cannot be done by parallel connection, and which I imagine is the same issue with "flying cap" approach.

jshanab, even slightest difference in voltage ( like 0.000001 V ) will cause electrons to flow from one cell to another until equilibrium is reached, same goes for charging voltage, it doesn't have to be 0.45V to be charging, but it would make it charge faster. 

I apologize for taking the thread off topic of A123 cells, but I feel this discussion is still relevant in building packs of parallel + series strings.


----------



## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

dimitri said:


> I still see an issue with this approach. If you do it this way all cells will be "perfectly balanced" as in "containing equal amount of energy", however, that doesn't mean equal SOC since each cell may have a tad different capacity. The goal of cell balancers is to bring all cells in the series connected string to equal SOC, although each cell will have difference in amount of stored energy, which is OK since we are not going to be draining them to zero SOC. In fact, the total AH capacity of series connected cells equals AH capacity of smallest cell in the string, extra capacity in other cells is useless for us.


I see what you're saying.


----------



## mjcrow (Jan 5, 2008)

These batteries are commonly used in e-bikes and there is some really good info on them on the Endless Sphere forums, in particular "The care and feeding of A123 based packs" (Long thread) http://www.endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=2498
and a really good BMS system (although you would need a few of these) also a very long thread http://www.endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=5416

mjcrow


----------



## wakinyantanka (Apr 8, 2008)

mjcrow said:


> These batteries are commonly used in e-bikes and there is some really good info on them on the Endless Sphere forums, in particular "The care and feeding of A123 based packs" (Long thread) http://www.endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=2498
> and a really good BMS system (although you would need a few of these) also a very long thread http://www.endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=5416
> 
> mjcrow


This is a great thread, and good reading. Thanks for posting this.


----------



## Jordysport (Mar 22, 2009)

I know it may sound a silly q but in the *DeWalt 36V DC9360 battery i assume the Ah rating is very low, and too low for our needs? 
*


----------



## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Unless you parallel a bunch of them together to increase the ahs.


----------



## Jordysport (Mar 22, 2009)

JRP3 said:


> Unless you parallel a bunch of them together to increase the ahs.


yeah i did think that but they are 1.1Ah /2.2Ah  that would need many and many batteries.


----------



## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

That's exactly what wakinyantanka is doing with the 26650 cells.


----------



## Jordysport (Mar 22, 2009)

JRP3 said:


> That's exactly what wakinyantanka is doing with the 26650 cells.


Ahh, everything fits now. shame im in the Uk rele. will have to make them myself, Cheers.

so the packs are 35 in parallel .


----------



## Jordysport (Mar 22, 2009)

JRP3 said:


> That's exactly what wakinyantanka is doing with the 26650 cells.


what is that number mean - 26650 does that refer to the specification of the battery (model number) or is it the layout of the battery (in the format of 15s 2p?)


----------



## wakinyantanka (Apr 8, 2008)

Jordysport said:


> Ahh, everything fits now. shame im in the Uk rele. will have to make them myself, Cheers.
> 
> so the packs are 35 in parallel .


Actually there are 50 paralleled in the 115AH module.
Jordysport'
The 26650 refers to the size of the cell' 26mm wide 650mm long.
To all who are interested:
I was informed that this pricing will not last, the shipment from which I am receiving these was purchased directly after the GM contract went south and A123 needed quick capital. They have now returned to their pricey ways.
I can't say how long these will last at this price. So if you want them now is the time. Current pricing is $6.50/cell assembled, pricing could go to anywhere from $12.50 to $16.50/cell assembled. I can say that I am setting up an automated,(CNC Weld Head), system. I would be able to assemble your cells in any configuration with very good accuracy and quality control on all the welds. All modules will be set up in hdpe casing to allow easy mounting. Terminals will be 5/16" for connecting the modules in series. Let me know if there is any way I can help you in your battery pack needs.


----------



## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

wakinyantanka said:


> To all who are interested:
> I was informed that this pricing will not last, the shipment from which I am receiving these was purchased directly after the GM contract went south and A123 needed quick capital. They have now returned to their pricey ways.


Crap  I hope Phostec or someone starts competing with these guys to get prices down in the future.


----------



## Jordysport (Mar 22, 2009)

i was thinking of Importing some of these cells but delivery was about $500 , Will have to source some dewatts here in the UK,  about 56 packs . May take a while. lol.


----------



## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

In the UK you might take a look at Lifebatt. http://www.lifebatt.co.uk/
Don't know what their prices are like.


----------



## Jordysport (Mar 22, 2009)

JRP3 said:


> In the UK you might take a look at Lifebatt. http://www.lifebatt.co.uk/
> Don't know what their prices are like.


Will post reply in my build thread JRP3 so i don't clog this thread up.


----------



## magudaman (Mar 29, 2009)

I am interested in purchasing cells. Sent PM. Oh are these cell in the US?


----------



## mjcrow (Jan 5, 2008)

Battery Spec sheet here http://www.gylling.no/a123/ANR26650M1_Datasheet_FEB2007-1.pdf

Safety sheet here http://www.gylling.no/a123/SF000003_04 MSDS Cell.pdf
You may need the safety sheet for shipping (Page 6, Section 14)

Hope this helps a few of you 

mjcrow


----------



## ZEVUtah (Apr 10, 2008)

The A123 cells are considered some of the best in the world right now, so this thread is interesting. 

I would be interested in seeing a 144 volt pack of the 115AH modules. From your post at the beginning of this thread I would assume about .85 per whr, or 
144 volt * 115 Ah = 16560 watt hr and $ 14,076 pack cost.

Is that correct ? 

Can you show some pictures of packs that you have already built ?

Thanks,
Kyle Dansie

http://www.evalbum.com/2058 
http://www.zevutah.com


----------



## wakinyantanka (Apr 8, 2008)

ZEVUtah said:


> The A123 cells are considered some of the best in the world right now, so this thread is interesting.
> 
> I would be interested in seeing a 144 volt pack of the 115AH modules. From your post at the beginning of this thread I would assume about .85 per whr, or
> 144 volt * 115 Ah = 16560 watt hr and $ 14,076 pack cost.
> ...


Hi Kyle,
Pics are on the way as soon as I replace my digital camera.
A 144v 115AH pack will be $14625.00 + shipping, 45 modules x $325.
PM me for more detail.


----------



## IamIan (Mar 29, 2009)

Maybe I'm missing a piece to this puzzle???

I know A123 cells have many significant benefits ... 
Reduced fire hazard / safety is a big one.
High Charge & DisCharge Rates.
Good cycle life.

Here is my bit of confusion... by my estimates:

A123 ( 26650 ) has :
~209 Wh per L of volume
~108 Wh per kg of weight

The Gaia HE-602050 Li Battery on the market ~3 years ago has:
~380 Wh per L of volume
~150 Wh per kg of weight

That's ~38% more kwh out of the same kgs of battery ... or ~81% more kwh out of the same liters of space... just for the batteries... it only gets worse for the A123 cells as you have to add additional connecting material between the larger number of smaller cells... and for a BMS to deal with a larger number of smaller cells.

I understand how a high performance sports car or somethng like the Kill-a-Cycle could want extremely high discharge rates... but a normal EV doesn't want to drain its battery pack in 2 or 3 minutes... kwh per kg and kwh per Liter I thought had always been the higher priority battery characteristics for normal EVs?

How many people want to drain their batteries from full to empty in less than a 30 minute (2C) trip?

--------------

So in a nut shell my confusion is... sumed up as... How much more weight in the form of A123 cells is worth the benefits the A123 cells offer?


----------



## dreamer (Feb 28, 2009)

Have you considered the difference in cycle life ? The a123 cells last 2000 cycles, while the Gaia cells last only 400 cyclesbefore their capacity has fallen below 80% of the original AH ratings. So unless the Gaia cells cost only 1/5th as much as the a123 cells, then they are more costly in the long run.

[Cycle life at 20°C and 100% DOD : 400 cycles to 80% nominal capacity (0.5 C charge; 0.5 C discharge) 
1000 cycles to 60% nominal capacity ]


----------



## jshanab (Mar 18, 2009)

LiFePo4 was developed using government funding specifically to create a low cost and safe Chemistry for EV's. Unfortunately The cost is not dictated entirely by the cost of production, but what the market will bear and in a moment of stupidity, we allowed patent law to be changed a while back and the patent was sold and is proprietary and in demand. 

The trade off of power and cycle life for capacity seems a fair one. The cost will come down. (but not by any American company, PS A123 cells are not made in the states)

In my opinion, no battery chemistry will make viable EV's until it becomes a commodity, Many companies making it, like lead-acid is now. 
Furthermore, if the united states wants to be on the forefront and have EV's, They are gonna have to let go of or commodize some of these patents.(AFIK the US Government help back some of the rights on LiFePo4, they just need to exercise them)

17 years may have been fine for 1969, but face it, if a US company can't get a product to market in 3 years...well...The Chinese will.


----------



## magudaman (Mar 29, 2009)

I'm pretty sure I sent off a PM to yah but haven't heard back. I am interested in around 70 cells. When would you be shipping these cells out?

If you didn't get my PM please email me at [email protected]

Or if they are already assembled then I guess Just one module of 50 cells?


----------



## wakinyantanka (Apr 8, 2008)

I wanted to update everyone on these modules. I have secured a steady supply and have decided to go into production. Modules can be tailored to your needs but I prefer to go with the 115ah modules. Cell balancing will be included with the modules unless otherwise stated.
Contact me at [email protected] for details 
Thanks,
Royce


----------



## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Same pricing, or did prices for the A123 cells go back up as you suspected?


----------



## wakinyantanka (Apr 8, 2008)

JRP3 said:


> Same pricing, or did prices for the A123 cells go back up as you suspected?


Pricing will go to $8.50/cell assembled when the current supply runs out. Current supply should be good through this summer however.


----------



## CroDriver (Jan 8, 2009)

Can you guarantee that the cells are not Chinese fakes?

Can they really do 50C?

I need a 15p112s pack and need all the current I can get out of them.


----------



## notnull (Jul 30, 2008)

I have run them at 20C in applications and I wouldn't want to go much further that. The voltage really starts to drop, just like any other cell. If you check out the White Zombie site where they ran a pack of A123 cells in a 110S8P configuration, they had to turn the controller down to 1000A. The pack handled the 50C draw but dropped to under 2V per cell. My personal opinion is that is just too much for the cells. 

I would design based on this. The cells will hold 2.5V at a 20C draw. What is the most voltage and current your motor and controller can handle. It looks like most of the drag racing guys are at 170V under a 2000A load. So, to get in that 20C range for 2000A, you need a 100AH pack of A123's. That is about 44 in parallel. I would go with 40 in parallel. 68 in series would give you 170V under a 20C load. That is about a 225V nominal 92AH pack that could handle 2000A and still hold 170V under that load. This is three times the number of cells that they tried to run. This pack would stilll be at least 200lbs lighter than their lead acid pack and would be capable of delivering much more power. 

Steve


----------



## CroDriver (Jan 8, 2009)

Thank you for that info Steve!

I have a double Kostov 11" motor. I think that the motor could handle 350V/2000Amps for a few seconds.

40 cells in parallel X 112 = 4480 cells

The regular price of the cells is about $12. 4480 X 12 = $53.760 

The weight is not the problem. Price and assembling is.

Where do you got your cells from? I read that the A123 cells are rock solid (the voltage isn't dropping at all) even on heavy loads with 30C+

Maybe you got some fake cells


----------



## magudaman (Mar 29, 2009)

anyone ever actually get any thing from this guy?


----------



## Amberwolf (May 29, 2009)

I have just sent both a PM and email with my questions and will post if I get a response or not within the next week. 

I'd like to think it's a real offer with real cells, but it disturbs me that in half a year Wakinyantanka was unable to buy or borrow any kind of camera long enough to take a few pictures, or even to lay some cells on a flat bed scanner to get the label portion scanned in and posted. 

Even if there were pictures, there's no good way to verify they're really ones taken by this person, unless perhaps the photos are taken with this forum and thread in the background on a computer monitor. 
________
Headshop


----------



## Amberwolf (May 29, 2009)

I've been doing a bit of searching prior posts/threads/offers by Wakinyantanka, and don't like what I see. 

For this forum, his last post was on 7-6-09, but the last one before that was in May 09. Neither was in this thread, making it appears he's abandoned it (and any potential customers of his). Given the lack of any closure on any previous group buys or other deals posted by this person on this forum, I doubt this one will ever have a resolution either. 

I do understand that he might be frustrated by the interruptions of his threads by others (such as FalconEV's rude use of one of Wakinyantanka's group buy thread for his own use, instead of starting his own), but one would still expect a resolution by him of his own threads and offers. I don't see any.

I'd say that if he's not willing to resolve the prior offers, and doesn't care enough about this one to even post pics, I don't think I'd trust him even if he did come back unless he could provide some very good explanations.
________
LIVE SEX


----------



## CroDriver (Jan 8, 2009)

magudaman said:


> anyone ever actually get any thing from this guy?


I would be extremely surprised



> Anyone receive yet? I'm about done waiting...Calling the CC company again on Monday unless I see a tracking number.


http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=9404&start=15


----------



## Amberwolf (May 29, 2009)

I just got a reply via email from him saying I could pass on the info he gave, and he says he apologizes for not updating the thread but "been extremely busy and have not had an opportunity to get to the site in a while". 

The prices apparently still hold valid at $6.50/cell as he did not mention a new price in his reply to me, and I had quoted that price in my email to him. That price is for bare cells or for assembled packs, so even if you do it yourself it won't cost any less. I'd asked about it referring to expecting a cost of $286 for 44 cells assembled as 11s4p for my ebike pack, giving me about [email protected], which sounds like a fair enough price compared to some of the (probable) junk I've seen on ebay for a lot higher price. 

He did not mention any additional costs for shipping and handling, and I forgot to ask in the original email, and have asked a separate question regarding that. 

He also sent some photos of his welder setup and of a unit being assembled, which I've attached to this post. The two photos of the battery pack are very low resolution and very small files, while the welder photo (with cells setup on it) is very large and high resolution (nearly enough so to read the labels on the cells). I had to make a 33% size version of that photo in order to upload it, so I also uploaded a cropped version of it with just the batteries at the original resolution, which fits within the forum limits for filesize. 

The cells do appear quite similar, perhaps identical to, the cell photos posted previously by someone else in this thread.


He said he could make the pack for me whenever I am ready, and I advised him I am holding off on the purchase until he resolves others' expectations at this thread, including the promised but never delivered photos (of which i do not count the ones he sent me directly that I have attached here). 

I do not trust anyone easily, as I have been "bamboozled" before. Even if someone had a good reputation and did not appear "flaky", I would still require time to ensure trust before I purchased, especially considering that my entire emergency fund for at least the next year would be going into this purchase (meaning that should *anything* bad happen, I would be out on the street without a home because of it, since I'd have to use my rent and/or utility/bill monies for the emergency instead). 

(The only reason I am even considering this purchase is because my ebike *is* my transportation, and if I have to keep using the two (or three) 23-pound bricks of lead I use now, I will not be able to build/use a lighter bike and thus am restricted to short-range (7mile roundtrip) destinations if I have heavy cargo to move, or the weather is hot, kind of common here in Phoenix AZ. Pedalling all that motor and lead, about 60 pounds worth, plus 60 pounds of bike so it doesn't break from the batteries+cargo+me, all the way home from outside that 7 mile radius should the batteries get too low is very difficult even under the best of conditions with my bad knees--it's why I am using the motor in the first place!)
________
Colorado medical marijuana


----------



## wakinyantanka (Apr 8, 2008)

Amberwolf said:


> I just got a reply via email from him saying I could pass on the info he gave, and he says he apologizes for not updating the thread but "been extremely busy and have not had an opportunity to get to the site in a while".
> 
> The prices apparently still hold valid at $6.50/cell as he did not mention a new price in his reply to me, and I had quoted that price in my email to him. That price is for bare cells or for assembled packs, so even if you do it yourself it won't cost any less. I'd asked about it referring to expecting a cost of $286 for 44 cells assembled as 11s4p for my ebike pack, giving me about [email protected], which sounds like a fair enough price compared to some of the (probable) junk I've seen on ebay for a lot higher price.
> 
> ...



Thanks to amberwolf for alerting me to everyone's concerns. Just to restate, I've been very busy with my repair shop that actually pays my bills. That said I'm working very hard to get the orders filled that I already have. As soon as I'm a little more caught up I'll take some more orders. Many have contacted me and I have told them to be patient because as of now I have to much to do. I have a few of the cells left that were $6.50 each. The next group will be $7.50 each assembled. If anyone is serious about getting in line for builds contact me at [email protected]
For all those who doubt my intentions feel free to look at my ebay feedback, yes it's perfect, same name there as here.
Thanks for your patience.


----------



## notnull (Jul 30, 2008)

Here is a link that has everything you ever wanted to know about A123 cells, including discharge graphs. I have never pushed my cells past 20C and my findings agree with the discharge curves they have posted.

http://www.fmadirect.com/support_docs/item_1229.pdf

I harvested my cells directly from DeWalt battery packs, so they are definitely A123 cells. I have had them for almost two years now and have not had one failure in my 60 cells and I routinely discharge them at 20C bursts. Any battery is going to drop voltage under load but these seem to drop less than any other battery at a comparable load.

Steve


----------



## wakinyantanka (Apr 8, 2008)

Just a quick update, We have started making deliveries on several of the orders and wanted to get some pics up of the product. Another note we are no longer using the new cells that were bound for Dewalt,(they move around inside those card board sleeves and create problems in are cnc welder), and are using brand new green pvc sleeved A123 cells.


----------



## magudaman (Mar 29, 2009)

Got my packs. Haven't seen them in person but will be back in town and testing them on Wednesday. Not sure from the photo but that burn mark worries me a little but I will test that cell individually and go from there. Otherwise look good.


----------



## Bowser330 (Jun 15, 2008)

Looks like only on the cardboard casing, probably from the soldering...

Please do let us know how they turn out..


----------



## magudaman (Mar 29, 2009)

Bowser330:

Well I hope the cell itself didn't get hot enough to do that, because then there will be unseen damage. I have blown holes in a123 from shorts but hopefully this is not the case. Testing will tell.


Just realized but I think I am going to contact him due to the post here:



> Another note we are no longer using the reclaimed Dewalt cells,(they move around inside those card board sleeves and create problems in are cnc welder), and are using brand new green pvc sleeved A123 cells.


Does this mean these were reclaimed cells from dewalt packs?

According to the opening post on this thread:


> These are new matched cells, not seconds or reclaimed dewalt packs.


So kinda contradicting.


----------



## Amberwolf (May 29, 2009)

magudaman said:


> Does this mean these were reclaimed cells from dewalt packs?
> 
> 
> wakinyantanka said:
> ...


Also in other posts he had said that:


wakinyantanka said:


> I was informed that this pricing will not last, the shipment from which I am receiving these was purchased directly after the GM contract went south and A123 needed quick capital. They have now returned to their pricey ways.


and:


wakinyantanka said:


> I wanted to update everyone on these modules. I have secured a steady supply and have decided to go into production.


Nowhere in anything else in this thread nor what he had replied to me in my inquiry was it stated these were reclaimed cells, probably "used", thus implying that they were still the new cells they were stated to be at the start of the thread. 

This deception makes it impossible for me to ever trust this person now, whether he is now using "real new" cells or not. Because who knows if the "new" new cells are really new, or even real. It was already hard enough to begin trusting, based on prior abandoned threads about various offers, but now.... So no orders from me to this person, ever, even if I ever get a better job to let me afford them.

It's people like this that make it so hard to trust anyone anymore. 
________
AVANDIA CLASS ACTION LAWSUITS


----------



## Bowser330 (Jun 15, 2008)

What we need is to have *wakinyantanka* come on here and explain the situation. I know tensions are high and I am sorry you have to deal with this doubt... but lets try to relax and hear what *wakinyantanka* has to say...


----------



## wakinyantanka (Apr 8, 2008)

Bowser330 said:


> What we need is to have *wakinyantanka* come on here and explain the situation. I know tensions are high and I am sorry you have to deal with this doubt... but lets try to relax and hear what *wakinyantanka* has to say...


Thank you for not jumping to conclusions.
I miss spoke in that last post and I will edit it. The cells he and others ordered were brand new cells that were meant for Dewalt packs, they were not reclaimed. They were never used by Dewalt or anyone else. They are not seconds or "b" grade cells or anything like that. We wiped off their tabs and used our own for our manufacturing process. All of the cells were individually tested and matched for optimum performance. All cells passed with a perfect 3.3v nominal charge at 2.3ah draw as rated by A123. Not a bad deal for $6.50/cell. We had some issues with our welder and the welds did not pass my quality expectations, so as a result we got about 8 weeks behind on our delivery schedule. The welder was shipped to it's manufacturer to be repaired and had to be shipped back once they were finished. We are working hard to finish the remaining orders and are making steady progress.

I will say this, once my current orders are filled I will not except any more custom jobs. 
I have tried many times to help people on this forum, either by trying to organize a group buy or here by obtaining the best cells on the market and build custom packs far cheaper than anywhere else. I was happy just trying to break even on this venture and get some people off of gasoline. 
Or help them realize their project whether it be a bike, motorcycle or car.
After being attacked personally again I will be removing myself from this forum and the rest of you can fend for yourselves.


----------



## wakinyantanka (Apr 8, 2008)

magudaman said:


> Got my packs. Haven't seen them in person but will be back in town and testing them on Wednesday. Not sure from the photo but that burn mark worries me a little but I will test that cell individually and go from there. Otherwise look good.


If your test reveals a problem get that pack back to me and I will repair it for you.


----------



## voicecoils (Jun 15, 2008)

Very disappointing to see things turn out like this. 

I've been watching the thread for a long time to see how things panned out. I'm sure many other EV enthusiasts have been doing the same.

I had an ebike project that I wanted to stuff full of A123s in a custom configuration, now it looks like that options is closed.


----------



## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

No good deed goes unpunished. Sorry this didn't work out for you wakin. Good luck.


----------



## wakinyantanka (Apr 8, 2008)

JRP3 said:


> No good deed goes unpunished. Sorry this didn't work out for you wakin. Good luck.


It is unfortunate that a few bad apples have left a such a sour taste in peoples mouths. I don't claim to be perfect and it has taken longer than expected to get my welder up and running properly, but we are finishing orders and getting them out. I could understand the distrust if that was not happening but come on. I will be building some standard size modules in the near future and listing them on ebay. I think we've decided on a [email protected] and a [email protected] module. That way people can build their packs however they see fit with some standard size modules. I will be including the internal voltage clamp with high and low voltage "sense" so they will be essentially plug and play.
Good luck to all on here with your projects, I know I look forward to the day the "ORION" makes her maiden voyage.


----------



## Bowser330 (Jun 15, 2008)

wakinyantanka said:


> It is unfortunate that a few bad apples have left a such a sour taste in peoples mouths. I don't claim to be perfect and it has taken longer than expected to get my welder up and running properly, but we are finishing orders and getting them out. I could understand the distrust if that was not happening but come on. I will be building some standard size modules in the near future and listing them on ebay. I think we've decided on a [email protected] and a [email protected] module. That way people can build their packs however they see fit with some standard size modules. I will be including the internal voltage clamp with high and low voltage "sense" so they will be essentially plug and play.
> Good luck to all on here with your projects, I know I look forward to the day the "ORION" makes her maiden voyage.


I am looking forward to seeing those modules! A123 cells are perfect for my DIYHEV...

I cant wait to see what you will do with the ORION...hows the progress? You are definitely past the foam-plug phase (picture in the gallery) aren't you?


----------



## wakinyantanka (Apr 8, 2008)

Bowser330 said:


> I am looking forward to seeing those modules! A123 cells are perfect for my DIYHEV...
> 
> I cant wait to see what you will do with the ORION...hows the progress? You are definitely past the foam-plug phase (picture in the gallery) aren't you?


Laying down eopxy and fine tuning the surface right now. Also building the suspension/drivetrain. The goal is to have her up and racing by next summer.


----------



## Bowser330 (Jun 15, 2008)

wakinyantanka said:


> Laying down eopxy and fine tuning the surface right now. Also building the suspension/drivetrain. The goal is to have her up and racing by next summer.


very cool, are you using a specific donor car to source all of your parts from or is this a pretty much custom-job?

will you be using a standard off the shelf genset?


----------



## wakinyantanka (Apr 8, 2008)

Bowser330 said:


> very cool, are you using a specific donor car to source all of your parts from or is this a pretty much custom-job?
> 
> will you be using a standard off the shelf genset?


Pretty much a custom job, although the suspension/drivetrain components are from a C5 'vette.
I'm using a propane powered generator for range extending, although it will only be needed on long trips as the weight and aerodynamics will allow me to travel on batteries alone for quite a few miles.


----------



## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Is the generator going to be removable, or a trailer? Seems a shame to drag around a genset all the time that won't be used most of the time.


----------



## wakinyantanka (Apr 8, 2008)

JRP3 said:


> Is the generator going to be removable, or a trailer? Seems a shame to drag around a genset all the time that won't be used most of the time.


No, The design is integrated. The weight of the unit is minimal and it allows me to go where I want when I want. I plan on racing the wheels off of her, and driving her home. So it's nice not to have to worry about plugging in for a recharge.


----------



## Bowser330 (Jun 15, 2008)

wakinyantanka said:


> Pretty much a custom job, although the suspension/drivetrain components are from a C5 'vette.
> I'm using a propane powered generator for range extending, although it will only be needed on long trips as the weight and aerodynamics will allow me to travel on batteries alone for quite a few miles.


Im thinking about tube framing a car and using parts from a donor and fiberglass body kit for the body...I guess I can use the donor suspension too...but corvette is always an option...

Are you going to use a transmission or direct drive?

Are you planning to build your 13" GE to handle higher rpms?


----------



## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

wakinyantanka said:


> No, The design is integrated. The weight of the unit is minimal and it allows me to go where I want when I want.


What size generator are you using? Anything I know of with sufficient capacity to power a vehicle is going to be over 10KW and probably over 200lbs.


----------



## wakinyantanka (Apr 8, 2008)

Bowser330 said:


> Im thinking about tube framing a car and using parts from a donor and fiberglass body kit for the body...I guess I can use the donor suspension too...but corvette is always an option...
> 
> Are you going to use a transmission or direct drive?
> 
> Are you planning to build your 13" GE to handle higher rpms?


Definitely using the 6-speed from the 'vette. I will also be doing all the performance modifications to the big GE motor per Mr. Jim Husted at Hitorque Electric.


----------



## wakinyantanka (Apr 8, 2008)

JRP3 said:


> What size generator are you using? Anything I know of with sufficient capacity to power a vehicle is going to be over 10KW and probably over 200lbs.


Some of that weight comes from the framing that the generator sits in, not much but some. I've weighed the pros and cons of having it on board, weight is not the issue for me as the rest of the car is so lite. Again, I want to have the option of going long distances with out "range anxiety".


----------



## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

wakinyantanka said:


> Again, I want to have the option of going long distances with out "range anxiety".


That can be handled through therapy


----------



## paker (Jun 20, 2008)

JRP3 said:


> That can be handled through therapy


So therapy equals EV grin?


----------



## CroDriver (Jan 8, 2009)

Any updates?


----------



## Jeff (Sep 25, 2008)

And do any images exist of this project? I'd like to see them too.

Regards, Jeff


----------



## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Not many that I'm aware of:
http://www.diyelectriccar.com/garage/photos/get_thumbnail/757
http://www.diyelectriccar.com/garage/cars/39
http://www.orionelectriccar.com/


----------



## Crash (Oct 20, 2009)

Don't know if this has been posted but here are those A123 batteries being used in electric car projects.


----------



## Amberwolf (May 29, 2009)

You could look at this post and onwards in the thread:
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=198420#p198420
Doesn't sound good.
________
Side Effects From Nexium


----------



## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Ouch, doesn't sound good.


----------



## Jeff (Sep 25, 2008)

JRP3 said:


> Ouch, doesn't sound good.


Hey! do you smell something?



Betcha that booboo only took about one second to appear.

Regards, Jeff


----------



## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

I wonder if he ended up with the wrong type of tab welder. I recently read something about there being two different types of tab welders and the wrong type might overheat the lithium cells and cause problems: http://www.nabble.com/Re:-$100-spot...tery-Packs-Small-vsLarge-Cells-p18657592.html


> For the A123 cells, it's very important to minimize the terminal
> heating (as per A123's specifications). The capacitive welders let the
> pulse go on for too long and cause too much heating, which will damage
> the cell. Bill Dube' says you need an inductive welder.


Again, I don't know if this was the problem in this case.


----------



## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

JRP3 said:


> I wonder if he ended up with the wrong type of tab welder....


I would say Bill Dube has it exactly backwards, and dangerously so. Induction heaters are very popular for case hardening bolts and rice cookers (most popular use by far, actually) and are very good at sustained heating at a precise rate. Capacitive discharge welders are excellent for joining together thin metals precisely because they don't heat the weldment up so much it tuns into a hole.


----------



## Jeff (Sep 25, 2008)

JRP3 said:


> I wonder if he ended up with the wrong type of tab welder. I recently read something about there being two different types of tab welders and the wrong type might overheat the lithium cells and cause problems: http://www.nabble.com/Re:-$100-spot...tery-Packs-Small-vsLarge-Cells-p18657592.html
> 
> Again, I don't know if this was the problem in this case.


Well, you often have to close one eye a little bit when Bill is talking 

Just kidding. Although he does take himself too seriously.

I have some experience here, as I don't use a capacitor discharge welder any longer. it can be difficult to achieve solid, repeatable, weld nuggets on a production basis, especially if you are joining thick materials. Problems occur with oxidation on either nickel foil, or the cell anode/cathode connection. Even a double pulse CD welder can be touchy.

The biggest problem I experienced with a CD welder are the "blowouts". That's where high resistance occurs at a joint to be welded (always from oxidation or dirt) and leaves a crater where the nickel tab and probe used to be after you push the weld button 

This is where an Inverter or programmable resistance type welder really shows an advantage.
In any setup, you still need to do some destructive testing on your welds to ensure you have the penetration, besides making sure you are not turning the foil blue (a really bad sign). And if the foil connection breaks easily, then the power is too low, and/or too long a pulse. That issue appears to be some of the complaints on those welds done for hire by others.

A programmable resistance welder (as the other person in the EVDL thread notes as being bad due to too long a minimum weld pulse time) isn't. I have been using a Miyachi ME35 programmable welder with a MT520 transformer for a couple of years now. Combined with a dual probe production desk station, it is extremely stable, with fully programmable pulse profiles, and is dual pulse -setting up a small "starter" weld to ensure the high power main weld cycle achieves a good nugget.

I took a picture of the weld head / transformer, and another of the power supply. Surprisingly, I paid under $1k for everything from a welder salesman on ebay. The listing title had a big typo, so that was probably why it was cheap. So don't pass on it if you can buy an ME35 set up for 220 single phase with an MT520A welding transformer. Don't buy the 3ph version ME35. They cannot be rewired to single phase power.

Regards, jeff


----------



## wakinyantanka (Apr 8, 2008)

Jeff said:


> Hey! do you smell something?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


After receiving this build back and looking at the packaging it looked as though this "booboo" happened in transport. My bad for not securing it. We refunded the purchase price to the buyer. I don't want it said that I am some kind of crook or something. Funny how the refunded money never gets brought up in these types of forums.
We have a resistance welder and yes have had all kinds of problems getting those positive sides to weld properly. Thought we had it worked out, have since completely redesigned our modules. 
It was for that very reason I stopped doing "custom" builds and went to a standard design. Quality control is far easier if you are not changing parameters on every order which is what we were trying to do.

Anyways, (feel like I'm wasting my breathe), it is quite difficult to do such builds and essentially break even. Just trying to get the A123s out there to people who could use them. Didn't think it would be so difficult. My mistake.


On another topic, 
Jeff, How is your Attack coming along? Finding enough time to work on it? I look forward to seeing it completed.
I know I don't have time to stop and eat much less work on the Orion.


----------



## Jeff (Sep 25, 2008)

wakinyantanka said:


> On another topic,
> Jeff, How is your Attack coming along? Finding enough time to work on it? I look forward to seeing it completed.
> I know I don't have time to stop and eat much less work on the Orion.


Hiya Royce!
The Attack has ground to a halt. Although it appears by the posts it has been ongoing, the recent updates were que'd from months back.

I have been ill, and have decided to shut down the businesses. And I am about half way to being there after six months of business to business asset sales.
The Attack is a distraction from what I needed to complete in a short time. I quietly put the completed battery pack up for sale ($30k), and will warehouse the car, as there's too much invested to try and sell it in this economy.


Goes to show you how things can change very quickly. Be Thankful of your good health every day.

Regards, Jeff


----------



## wakinyantanka (Apr 8, 2008)

Jeff said:


> Hiya Royce!
> The Attack has ground to a halt. Although it appears by the posts it has been ongoing, the recent updates were que'd from months back.
> 
> I have been ill, and have decided to shut down the businesses. And I am about half way to being there after six months of business to business asset sales.
> ...


Man.. I'm very sorry to hear that. I sure hope your going to be OK.
I wish we where closer I would help you if I could.


----------



## peggus (Feb 18, 2008)

Tesseract said:


> I would say Bill Dube has it exactly backwards, and dangerously so. Induction heaters are very popular for case hardening bolts and rice cookers (most popular use by far, actually) and are very good at sustained heating at a precise rate. Capacitive discharge welders are excellent for joining together thin metals precisely because they don't heat the weldment up so much it tuns into a hole.



Bill Dube's never advocated the use of induction welder on A123 cells, rather inverter welder. Minor difference.


----------



## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

wakinyantanka said:


> We refunded the purchase price to the buyer. I don't want it said that I am some kind of crook or something. Funny how the refunded money never gets brought up in these types of forums.


When people don't get what they are expecting it's not unusual for them to have a negative slant on the transaction. Unfortunately it's only the disgruntled customers who are speaking up which makes things seem worse than they may actually be. I don't think you were intentionally trying to rip people off, the product simply didn't meet expectations. If you had joined the conversation and said, as you did here, that it was more difficult than you realized and that you refunded the money for those who requested it, it wouldn't have looked as bad. You may feel it's not worth your time since this doesn't seem to be a full time business for you. 
Sorry to hear Orion isn't progressing, and even more sorry to hear of Jeff's problems. Any chance of getting the Attack running with a lower cost TS or SE pack? Would certainly help the resale value even with limited range and performance.


----------



## wakinyantanka (Apr 8, 2008)

JRP3 said:


> When people don't get what they are expecting it's not unusual for them to have a negative slant on the transaction. Unfortunately it's only the disgruntled customers who are speaking up which makes things seem worse than they may actually be. I don't think you were intentionally trying to rip people off, the product simply didn't meet expectations. If you had joined the conversation and said, as you did here, that it was more difficult than you realized and that you refunded the money for those who requested it, it wouldn't have looked as bad. You may feel it's not worth your time since this doesn't seem to be a full time business for you.
> Sorry to hear Orion isn't progressing, and even more sorry to hear of Jeff's problems. Any chance of getting the Attack running with a lower cost TS or SE pack? Would certainly help the resale value even with limited range and performance.



Very true. It has been my experience so far though that some people want the absolute best technology and world class service, without paying for it. Like you said this was not a business for me, I started out just trying to help out and then quickly got overwhelmed. Once again my mistake. 
One I won't be repeating anytime soon.


----------

