# Small cells for replacemene of Harley battery.



## ElectriCar (Jun 15, 2008)

I have an 2009 Ultra with a shitty factory battery. The original one was replaced when I bought the bike new. Now less than two years later it's about dead again. I've bought lawnmower batteries that lasted longer from Wal-Mart! 

A POS Harley replacement is about $175. Dimensions 6.65x6.85x5.16
I can get a Odyssey PC925LMJ which fits but I have to reroute a cable for about $205 from the guys I bought my lead from. Dim. 6.64x7.05x4.875

So I'm thinking of using 4 Calb 40's for $200 but two of the three dimensions are a little longer, half inch or so. Dim. 7.25x7.125x4.5 

Compared to a car battery, lithium isn't competitive but compared to this battery, it's right there with them. I just have to check the alternator voltage. 14.4V which is standard in a car I think is 3.6V/cell so that's right in there but I might need a shunting BMS (scares me to death to think about) if I can't turn the regulator down somehow.

Since I won't be riding it in freezing weather, cold temps aren't an issue. They may get warm though since they sit above and slightly behind the motor. That could be probably be kept in check with some radiant barrier.

What do y'all think? And does TS make some smaller?


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## ElectriCar (Jun 15, 2008)

Keegan quoted me the batteries, links and shipping at about $225.


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## brainzel (Jun 15, 2009)

Thundersky / Winston Battery has a 20Ah (dimensions 71x42x152 mm) and a 40Ah (116x46x188 mm) version.
4 pcs. LiFeYPO4 cells LFP020AH - 3.2V/20Ah would be about $160,- Dollars.


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## rwaudio (May 22, 2008)

You could build a small headway pack to fit in that space easily. 10, 12 or 16ah cells.


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## esoneson (Sep 1, 2008)

Several years ago a custom Motorcycle mechanic by the name of Matt Hotch was promoting lithium batteries for the high compression oversize v-twin engines. His shop was a few miles from where I lived.

Here is a film of one of his tests: 

EDIT: This film shows a non-lithium "government" battery, but with tremendous capacity.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lyYBh4ec05c

And here is a place that sells a bunch of lithium batteries for motorcycles:

http://www.batterystuff.com/batteries/lithium-iron-batteries/?gclid=COi4gIX1vKgCFRIq7Aodxi9jEw


I owned my Harley for 11 years and did all the work on it. My one piece of advice is to also check your electrical system for subtle shorts, loose connections or slow drains when turned off (one of my favorites). You should find the root cause of the problem. The huge capacity lithium battery may circumvent the problem for a lot longer than the lead battery, but you should make sure that the problem is found and fixed too.

Just my 2 cents.

Good luck with that.

Eric (1998 Super Glide, V+H short shots, worked carb, etc, etc, miss that bike)


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## ElectriCar (Jun 15, 2008)

Thanks Eric. I contacted Batterystuff.com but it looks like they don't have one large enough to replace mine so will wait to hear from them. My main thing is wanting something that doesn't self discharge and will last a long time. Lithium should be able to sit a month or three without any issues unless there's something draining it as you mentioned.


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## dtbaker (Jan 5, 2008)

ElectriCar said:


> Thanks Eric. I contacted Batterystuff.com but it looks like they don't have one large enough to replace mine so will wait to hear from them. My main thing is wanting something that doesn't self discharge and will last a long time. Lithium should be able to sit a month or three without any issues unless there's something draining it as you mentioned.



if you know its going to sit for a while.... pop your manual disconnect! A li battery will sit for years without self-discharge.


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## dtbaker (Jan 5, 2008)

ElectriCar said:


> So I'm thinking of using 4 Calb 40's for $200 but two of the three dimensions are a little longer, half inch or so. Dim. 7.25x7.125x4.5



you might want to put together a little pack of Headways in this case since they can handle the cold-crank amps better than large format, and will take less space for what you need. (big amps for 30 seconds)


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## ElectriCar (Jun 15, 2008)

dt I'm guessing a 40ah would do fine. The factory is rated at 30ah and is an AGM I believe. But I won't decide until I take some readings.

When it cranks, it probably takes less than 2 seconds to crank. I'm not sure of the cranking amps, got to measure that and my DC Amp meter has been sent out for warranty. I asked a guy today if I could tweak the voltage regulator for the alternator down a little from 14.4 (3.6V/cell) and he said I couldn't, was fixed. 

Anyway I'm going to persue this. With what I know about electricity, once the cells are charged up to 3.6V and if balanced, they won't accept any current from a 3.6V source, that's basic electricity so in that case I suspect they'll be fine.


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## dtbaker (Jan 5, 2008)

you probably don't need many ah at all, you just want to be sure that the internal temp of cells won't spike trying to crank the amps for 10 seconds.... hence the headways as a smaller footprint with better cooling for the big crank.

On the charge side, the standard voltage reg is hard-set, probably to 14.4.... you want to pick cells that will be ok with that as the 'float' voltage they will get recharged to. you are going with basically a CV charger, and want to make sure the CV (14.4) is not over where your cells can handle it. Different cells have slightly different CV they can handle gracefully. Thundersky maybe around 3.6-3.7 no problem, CALB a little lower, Headway I don't know much about.


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## ElectriCar (Jun 15, 2008)

Calb says to charge to 3.6 I believe though I don't do my truck batteries that way. 

To do this I need a LVC of some sort to keep it from over discharging. I wonder how the bike would do if I had a HVC at 3.4V or so. But to do either I would have to have a hefty contactor to disconnect the pack but a smaller one would do the charger easy enough depending on the alternator amp rating.

I've still not done anything yet. No luck finding one already made for it either but I HAVE to do something before too long.


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## BMI/LiFeTech (Aug 12, 2009)

Or you could use a proper factory made motorcycle battery manufactured with A123 cells and has an inbuilt BMS so comes with 3 years warranty.


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## ElectriCar (Jun 15, 2008)

Rather than wading through your site, can you help me? I have a 2009 Harley Davidson Ultra Classic. I think it's a common battery size for Harley's. This battery lies on it's side under the seat so it won't be verticle. 

If the price is acceptable I will replace all my company vehicle & equipment batteries with these when they fail after trying one out. I use a lot of 6V cells which could be replaced with 12V batteries. I have a lot of work vehicles as well.


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## ElectriCar (Jun 15, 2008)

One more thing, the factory battery is rated 30ah but I'm sure with A123 cells at 30C rating your battery can be rated less but right off I don't know how to decide on a proper value.


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## BMI/LiFeTech (Aug 12, 2009)

ElectriCar said:


> Rather than wading through your site, can you help me? I have a 2009 Harley Davidson Ultra Classic. I think it's a common battery size for Harley's. This battery lies on it's side under the seat so it won't be verticle.
> 
> If the price is acceptable I will replace all my company vehicle & equipment batteries with these when they fail after trying one out. I use a lot of 6V cells which could be replaced with 12V batteries. I have a lot of work vehicles as well.


These batteries are manufactured specifically for motorcycles. As such they come supplied with a right angle/90 degree terminal adaptor so the battery is fitted on its side. 
The BMS is manufactured specifically for this motorcycle battery and is not used in any other application.

There are three different size batteries available in the series for small, medium and large engine motorcycles. So the cells in these batteries are respectively configured as 4S2P, 4S3P and 4S4P.

I only supply these batteries to racing teams and specialist motorcycle spare parts dealers but if you want a few I should be able to help you out. One of these dealers placed an order for these batteries with me last week at the request of a Harley owner. I will be sure to take some photos of the battery fitted to the Harley and send them to you. 
Please pm me your email address so I can send you the full details and specs of the product range.


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## ElectriCar (Jun 15, 2008)

I found a lithium iron phosphate prismatic starter battery and ordered it this weekend. It only costs a little more than a factory battery for the Harley. 

Interesting thing I learned about lithium batteries replacing lead is they will increase your fuel mileage and of course reduce weight. Here's an article about the battery I purchased.

What's even more impressive is this customer review video. I've seen demonstration videos of similar batteries before with impressive results, even torching starter motors etc from not allowing them to stop and cool.

I'm going to put an amp meter on my truck battery positive lead today and check the current going into it. It's already fully charged and we all know that once lithium is charged it won't accept any more current. If anything interesting comes up I'll post it.


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## ElectriCar (Jun 15, 2008)

Well this experiment went awry. I went with Shorai's recommended size battery and it was so bad I knew something had to be wrong with it. Sent it back and got the next larger size just for insurance as a replacement. It was better but nowhere near what it should be and even the half dead Harley battery worked much better.

In correspondence with them over the first battery I learned they started making their own cells instead of using Headway, 123 or whatever they were using. Apparently that was a horrible decision. They lost me for the time being.

For now I'll just stick with the OEM battery.


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## BMI/LiFeTech (Aug 12, 2009)

ElectriCar said:


> Well this experiment went awry. I went with Shorai's recommended size battery and it was so bad I knew something had to be wrong with it. Sent it back and got the next larger size just for insurance as a replacement. It was better but nowhere near what it should be and even the half dead Harley battery worked much better.
> 
> In correspondence with them over the first battery I learned they started making their own cells instead of using Headway, 123 or whatever they were using. Apparently that was a horrible decision. They lost me for the time being.
> 
> For now I'll just stick with the OEM battery.


I am sorry to hear you wasted your money on the Shorai battery ElectriCar. We tested the Shorai batteries a while ago. Compared with the RCE battery (which is the highest quality lithium motorcycle battery on the market at present) the Shorai is very poor in a couple of regards. The big give away that it is not much good is the minimal 12 months warranty. By comparison the RCE battery comes with 3 years warranty because it uses A-grade A123 cells combined with a very good BMS to keep the cells in balance.
Of course as with all quality products you get what you pay for. Personally I don't see the point of buying a cheap lithium battery such as the Shorai if it fails to do the job it was intended to do. If you want a cheap battery and can't afford lithium it is best to stay with lead acid.


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## ElectriCar (Jun 15, 2008)

It now has a 3yr warranty but they have gotten a black eye now and lost and will continue to lose customers over this I'm sure.


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## BMI/LiFeTech (Aug 12, 2009)

ElectriCar said:


> It now has a 3yr warranty but they have gotten a black eye now and lost and will continue to lose customers over this I'm sure.


I wasn't aware of that. So if they have a 3 year warranty did they give you a replacement battery or your money back?
Whay did they say the battery failed since they specified that particular model?


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## ElectriCar (Jun 15, 2008)

I got a larger replacement which wasnt' much better, the 36Ah. I installed it Friday PM in preparation for a long trip and had to take it back out. Since it was in the evening the office wasn't open. I'll know something in 24hours probably.


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## crashnfool (Sep 26, 2009)

So here's the update on the quad...

I just got done testing the headways that I'm using for the 12 volt system. I am more than pleased with the results!!!

I took some pics, but I forgot to take one with the pack installed in the quad. Oh well it looks and fits great, which is an important part of the process.

So I started with a test of the old battery, while cranking it over it read 10.2....
then I tested it out of the quad...and it barely read 11.7...Its a 3 yr. old battery I was surprised it was that good..

Then came the fun stuff.....Tested the headways before install and got good reading of 13.8. Safely below maximum charge range, Once again I tested the headways while cranking the motor over and BAM 12.7 while cranking with all lights on and the cooling fan running. So here's some pics and I'm a happy camper.


































still rocking with this pack.....under a hundred bucks... ...almost three years later.


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## ElectriCar (Jun 15, 2008)

Awesome! Any sort of BMS on it? I emailed Shorai Friday PM and didn't hear from them today. If they won't refund my purchase and I can't get MC to reverse the charges I may pop it open and see what sort of garbage cells they've installed and replace them with something like you have, using their bms, though I don't use one on my truck. 

What are the ah specs on your cells?


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## brainzel (Jun 15, 2009)

LP12V20AHB - 12V/20Ah is this an alternative to your self made box?
(dimensions 181x77x167 mm)
* 
*


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## ElectriCar (Jun 15, 2008)

I need more than 20Ah. Factory was 30. I'd love to use 123 cells but not sure where I could find them so it's likely Headway I guess. 

It would be nice to have a ready made battery thus the Shorai purchase I made. However it's foolish IMO to buy a replacement that costs double or more what it would cost me for a lead battery. The advantages simply aren't worth the money they are asking for them. 

A factory Harley battery is around $200. I paid $260 I think for the Shorai which I think is ok, and it would have been great had they not started making their own cells. They're going to get a black eye over this before it's over I suspect.


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## brainzel (Jun 15, 2009)

There is also a 40Ah Version available:
LP12V40AH+ - WB-LP12V40AH (12V/40Ah)
~250 Dollars in US, Dimensions 225mm×125mm×208mm
But if you've already made your decision, I'll stop now and follow your posts to see your further experience


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## ElectriCar (Jun 15, 2008)

Those dimensions are over 8" on two sides. The battery compartment is about 6" on two sides so that wouldn't work either. Thanks for the suggestions though.


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## frodus (Apr 12, 2008)

well, then you'll have to use some very dense batteries to get the volume down. Not gonna get much smaller, not unless you go lipo.

Are you sure the original battery was 30AH? what are the original dimensions


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## ElectriCar (Jun 15, 2008)

frodus said:


> well, then you'll have to use some very dense batteries to get the volume down. Not gonna get much smaller, not unless you go lipo.
> 
> Are you sure the original battery was 30AH? what are the original dimensions


Yea well the book says 30 but the battery says 27. It's roughly 6.5x5.5" square and about 6" deep.

I'm thinking of 8 small cell type batteries in a 4s2p setup. 

Here's something that may help. The original CCA was 310 I believe. The replacement Shorai was 540 on the label but there's no way it was anywhere near that. I need to put an amp meter on it and start it up. I doubt it pulls 300A!


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## crashnfool (Sep 26, 2009)

ElectriCar said:


> Awesome! Any sort of BMS on it? I emailed Shorai Friday PM and didn't hear from them today. If they won't refund my purchase and I can't get MC to reverse the charges I may pop it open and see what sort of garbage cells they've installed and replace them with something like you have, using their bms, though I don't use one on my truck.


I've never run a bms on these cells.....fingers still crossed..but it's only a 12 volt pack so not gonna cry if I kill them...although they have taken some serious abuse so far...



ElectriCar said:


> What are the ah specs on your cells?


This pack is made up of 38120p cells they are 8ah...


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## ElectriCar (Jun 15, 2008)

Ah I see you work for an ev company. I'm going to take an amp reading on the starter motor today to see what it will pull. What is the max C that cell can discharge? To equal my 27ah I would need a 4p4s setup, I think...


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## crashnfool (Sep 26, 2009)

ElectriCar said:


> Ah I see you work for an ev company. I'm going to take an amp reading on the starter motor today to see what it will pull. What is the max C that cell can discharge? To equal my 27ah I would need a 4p4s setup, I think...


Yes I work for an ev company but these are my personal cells that I paid for..at full price because I wanted to see just how good these cells would be.....

I have sold a few of these packs to friends who run them in their bikes or quads. no need for more cells then this for starting your motorcycle....


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## rochesterricer (Jan 5, 2011)

crashnfool said:


> I have sold a few of these packs to friends who run them in their bikes or quads. no need for more cells then this for starting your motorcycle....


I actually know of at least a couple people who have built batteries like this for cars out of Headway cells as well.


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## ElectriCar (Jun 15, 2008)

OK more data. The engine is a 1575cc OEM Harley motor. I just completed several starts and checked the amps. The first start was about 385A and was near a perfect (instant) start. Subsequent starts took longer to wind the engine with the last one drawing only about 200A but took much longer to start, much like the Shorai batteries. *So from my testing it appears that I would need about 400A available capacity to start the thing properly.*


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## CroDriver (Jan 8, 2009)

I have four 8Ah Headways in my Harley Fat Boy and it works...


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## ElectriCar (Jun 15, 2008)

CroDriver said:


> I have four 8Ah Headways in my Harley Fat Boy and it works...


 Wow!!! What year is the motor?


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## crashnfool (Sep 26, 2009)

4 8AH = 640CCA's


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## MN Driver (Sep 29, 2009)

crashnfool said:


> 4 8AH = 640CCA's


...maybe not.

CCA is current at 0F (-18C). It is the current a battery will deliver for 30 seconds and maintain at least (7.2 volts for a 12-volt system).

If you aren't riding your bike at this temperature, it won't matter but CCA isn't quite the term to look at when looking at the ratings because once you get below freezing the power a cell can deliver goes down. Same happens with lead-acid too but moreso. A few high amperage starting attempts will heat the battery up quickly so if it doesn't start the first try a few seconds of waiting for the hot spots in the cell to dissipate may allow it to start.

This is the one factor that I see minimal information about is cold weather LiFePO4 testing that I think we need the details of for using an electric car without heated batteries. Again, with a Harley this should not be an issue at all and I'm certain the 8Ah Headway cell will far outperform the needs of a Harley engine start.


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## ElectriCar (Jun 15, 2008)

The 8ah Headway is rated at MAX 25C or 200A. I don't see how Crodrivers setup can start his motor, essentially the same as mine which requires about 385A to start without winding the motor for a few seconds. At 200-250A mine takes about 3 seconds to start. At 385A it takes seriously only half a second!


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## MN Driver (Sep 29, 2009)

There is a thread on ES where this was discussed, there is a guy with a racing Honda Civic with a high compression engine that uses Headway. ...which was shown right after a high-end cylindrical cell battery vendor posted how their cells could start a motorcycle. It seems they think it is no problem. Remember the ratings are setup for a certain period of seconds, if you aren't going to push the current for very long, especially if its once and then nothing for a long time, the battery won't get hot enough for this to really matter. Headway 8Ah cells are less than 20 bucks each.


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## brainzel (Jun 15, 2009)

Could this be a matter ov voltage? The lead acid will sag much more @ sucking >300 amps then the lithium cells ... just a thought ...


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## ElectriCar (Jun 15, 2008)

Not sure what you're referring to...


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## brainzel (Jun 15, 2009)

Sorry. My thought: If your lead acid delivers so much current (14C! for a 27Ah version) it seems to me, that this is too much for it. Close to an colapse ;-)
So perhaps a lithium battery doesn't sags so much and wouldn't have to deliver so much current. ~400A is a huge current for an ice to start i think.


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## ElectriCar (Jun 15, 2008)

It's an AGM if that makes any difference, the OEM battery. And with it going bad it still performs well most of the time. I just noticed it taking longer to crank a lot of times and that tells me it's starting to go. Don't want to be stranded.


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## spdas (Nov 28, 2009)

Motorcycle wet batteries really suck and you are lucky to get 6-10 months out of them. I went to my electrical supply store and got some used sealed UPS batteries (18ah). They have worked fine for over 15 months now. Be sure they have the large lugs on them that indicates to me the ability to draw high amps for starting. They also hold over 13v when on the shelf for 6 months.


Francis


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## ElectriCar (Jun 15, 2008)

Shorai's venture into manufacturing their own cells has bit them in the rear. For now they're refunding my money. A good thing as not doing so and trying to get me to accept that thing would be bad for their reputation.

The upgraded unit I bought was rated at 540CCA. I suspect it only managed about half that. So they were going to "condition" one and send it to me. Conditioning they said would increase the amp output to rated capacity. They've decided to refund my money I suppose because they couldn't make one perform like it was designed and advertised.

I'm sure they will get it right but for now I think I'll build one from Headways if I can get enough Ah. Need about 30ah.


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