# [EVDL] Nissan Leaf



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Hello,

I went to the Leaf "tour" at the Boston Science Museum on Tuesday, and here's my report:

Okay, I've seen the Nissan Leaf in person -- it is one of only two actual cars they've made, so far. It cost them ~$2.5 million to build it. It looks larger than I expected, and it has a typical-for-today look: thick doors and thick seats, a quite tasteful dash with large screen GPS navigation system (more later) and the dash is all electronic. The backseat looks pretty decent, and the hatch/boot looks pretty darn large and deep.

The battery is 24kWh, lithium manganese polymer (IIRC) designed and built by Nissan. There are 48 ~inch thick cells that are about the size of a piece of paper; and each of these has 4 prismatic "sub-cells". They are in a sealed enclosure, and it has a 10 year warranty -- it will have 70-80% of its capacity at that time. There is no active cooling in the battery pack.

There are three types of charging:

Level 1 is 120v AC and will take up to 16 hours to go from no charge to full charge.
Level 2 is 240v AC and will take up to 8 hours to go from no charge to full charge.
Level 3 is 440v DC and will be able to charge 0-80% in ~27 minutes.

Charging starts after you plug it in, and after the car and the charger have "talked" to each other, and everything is hunky dory. It will be nearly impossible to get shocked, even in a rain storm, as the cord is not energized until after this happens. I believe I heard someone talking about being able to program the car/charger to work during specific times, to take advantage of (possibly) lower rates.

The cost of the car will include the battery. You will be able to buy the car with the battery -- or you can lease the car with the battery. It's not "official" at this time, but they will *not* be leasing the battery separately from the car.

You will be eligible for the $7500 federal tax credit for buying the car. If you have a charger installed (this may be for a Level 1/2 charger?), you can get up to an additional $2,000 tax credit, as well. Level 3 chargers are eligible for more, IIANM. 

They will announce the actual pricing in April (at which point I believe they will start taking pre-orders). For the moment, they say the price will be "the same as a similarly sized and equipped [conventional] car." Remember the nav system I mentioned? This is part of the battery monitoring system, and my understanding is that it is standard equipment:

There are 4 ways to monitor the battery charge:

A "miles left" estimate display.
A percent of charge left display.
A circle of approximate range highlighted on the nav screen display
An "idiot" light that warns you when you get close to 10% (IIRC) charge left, and it soon thereafter goes into a "limp home" mode that limits your speed to 55mph, (and probably turns off things like the A/C?).

The battery pack is under the seats -- the front is under the front seats, and the back is under the back seat.

The 100 mile range is for a fairly slow (LA4?) cycle, and many folks who know about these things are saying 60-70 miles with much highway speeds -- though as you point out, we do not know the DOD design, and since we know there is no active battery cooling, they may just have a very stable battery cell, and they may be able to "push" it regularly. The polymer layering is similar to the batteries that Apple now uses in their MacBook Pro, and that battery life went from about 2.5 hours up to ~7 hours with no increase in physical size...

I didn't see the underside, but from pictures I have seen it is pretty good. The headlights protrude *up* a couple of inches, near the back -- and this is supposedly to create a "break" for the side mirrors. And the side mirrors look fairly small and well shaped, as these things go... (They shoulda' used video mirrors!)

A Cd of 0.28 certainly sounds right. The wheels and wheel openings are the biggest culprits. There is a grill opening below the stagnant point. The weight is pretty high -- 3,400-3,500 pounds is just ~300-400 less than the Volt, which has a 1.4L ICE and the associated cooling, fuel system, etc.

I think the interior space in the Leaf is probably much better than the Volt -- the Volt has its battery in the tunnel remember, so the center spot in the back seat is useless. (Do they even call the Volt a 5 seater -- I think it is officially a 4 seat car.) The Leaf looked to be pretty roomy all around. It still had "fat" seats, which is something we need to get over "needing"...

I forgot to ask about how regenerative braking works. Darn. Oh, they will start shipping at the end of this year, to the pre-orders, and then after that, they will be at the dealerships. They had a dealer conference/training happening concurrent with this public "tour". Tomorrow/next they will be in New York city.


Sincerely, Neil
http://neilblanchard.vox.com/library/posts/



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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

For those following it, Nissan is now taking reservations for the Leaf. 
Requires a $99 fully-refundable deposit to hold your place in line.

--Rick

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

I tried but they don't like Canadian postal codes :-(

Soon I hope, Lawrence

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Rick Beebe
Sent: Tuesday, April 20, 2010 4:37 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: [EVDL] Nissan Leaf

For those following it, Nissan is now taking reservations for the Leaf. 
Requires a $99 fully-refundable deposit to hold your place in line.

--Rick

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Rick Beebe <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> > For those following it, Nissan is now taking reservations for the Leaf.
> > Requires a $99 fully-refundable deposit to hold your place in line.
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

I think there will always be a market for EV component companies, as not all
ppl will want what the car manufacturers are pushing for various reasons
(ie. cost, look, feel, milage, speed, etc).

I know a lot of ppl are doing conversions that cost that much, but they end
up with an EV that they wanted - they choose the car they wanted, the motor
they wanted, the performance they wanted, and the mileage they wanted. And
ppl will always pay to do what they want 

Also, high cost EV conversions are those using lithium packs and going for
higher performance. Many conversions have been done, and will continue to be
done, for much less then the cost of a new EV from Nissan or other
manufacturers - and if using sla, they're quite inexpensive in comparison.

Now I just have to wait until the Leaf is launched in Australia. I think
it'll make for a very suitable car for the wife 

Leslie







> Otin Kyad <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> > On Tue, Apr 20, 2010 at 4:37 PM, Rick Beebe <[email protected]> wrote:
> >
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> WRX STI <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> >
> > I know a lot of ppl are doing conversions that cost that much, but they end
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

What kit cost's $16K without batteries? I've seen 72v EV kits starting at
$3K and 144v kits starting from under $6k, so for $16k you must have went to
town and purchased the best components you could find (or got ripped off).

Regardless, and in reference to my comment, I did say ppl will pay for what
they want, and I expect you spent that extra money for something that you
specifically wanted 

Leslie






> Dave Hale <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> > On Tue, Apr 20, 2010 at 5:36 PM, WRX STI <[email protected]> wrote:
> >
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Been following for some time now and I now have my place in line. Did that
early today. Hope to be one of the early ones to get one. I still will build
home built ones because I want an old VW Electric drive. I also want an
electric race buggy. Getting a Nissan Leaf will allow me a quality electric
with monthly payments and I don't have to spend $25K at one time to build
one. I can enjoy my new electric while I build my other electric toys.  

So I am on the list. How many more here are on the list. At least they are
moving forward, unlike GM. 

Pete 

-----
With off the shelf parts you can build an affordable EV.
http://greenev.zapto.org/electricvw
-- 
View this message in context: http://n4.nabble.com/Nissan-Leaf-tp2018207p2018358.html
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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

FYI I believe the $25k does not include the battery.



> Otin Kyad <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> > On Tue, Apr 20, 2010 at 4:37 PM, Rick Beebe <[email protected]> wrote:
> >
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Roger, 

So you think that Nissan will get all these folks to sign up then when it
comes time to actually put our money where our mouths are that they will
spring on us the extra cost of the batteries? 

You really think they'd sabotage their own like that? Hell that would kill
the EV right out of the gate if they played that sort of game. 

No mention of any thing like that. From the information we have a battery
pack is included. 

Pete 

Leased battery packs are so not going to happen.

-----
With off the shelf parts you can build an affordable EV.
http://greenev.zapto.org/electricvw
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View this message in context: http://n4.nabble.com/Nissan-Leaf-tp2018207p2018387.html
Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> WRX STI <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> > What kit cost's $16K without batteries?
> 
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

This is not what the specs on the reservation suggests. There was talk that
there might be an option to lease the battery, but that is not an option on
the order.

- Will
Aptos, CA 95003
(831) 688-8669
[email protected] =



-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf
Of Roger Heuckeroth
Sent: Tuesday, April 20, 2010 8:21 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Nissan Leaf

FYI I believe the $25k does not include the battery.



> Otin Kyad <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> > On Tue, Apr 20, 2010 at 4:37 PM, Rick Beebe <[email protected]> wrote:
> >
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

The $25K pricetag being listed by some is after FULL Government incentive
tax discount, but this incentive depends on the individual, and can be
anywhere from $0-$7500.

The actual, full retail price is $32,780 as listed on the Nissan website,
and you'll also then have to pay the usual onroad costs, such as tax,
licence, title and destination charges, as well as the cost of the EVSE
charging equipment for your home (if you decide you want that).

So please bare that in mind if you are considering purchasing a Nissan Leaf
and think it is only going to cost you $25k - when it could cost several
thousand more depending on the things I mentioned above.

Leslie







> Will Beckett <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> > This is not what the specs on the reservation suggests. There was talk
> > that
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Hello Roger,

> FYI I believe the $25k does not include the battery.

Please check your facts -- it *does* include the battery.

Sincerely, Neil
http://neilblanchard.vox.com/library/posts/



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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Are you absolutely sure? A year ago the $25k was the projected price 
for the car sans batteries.

On Apr 21, 2010, at 5:30 PM, Neil Blanchard 


> <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> > Hello Roger,
> >
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

There has never been any official stand on battery but where the battery is
in the vehicle it would not be easy to access. So it is quite doubtful that
the battery would be leased. I still can't fathom Nissan leading the public
on just to toss onto them OH by the way after spending $32000 you still need
to drop another $12000 for a battery pack that you must now lease and can't
own. Sounds like the ticket to failure from the get go. 

I'd say that you are thinking of GM and not Nissan. Just can't imagine. If
they did that to me I'd be the most pissed off person in the world along
with thousands of others. Just can't imagine. Also the information given at
the time of signup made no mention of a separate battery pack tacked on to
the price. It just ain't so. Just ain't so. 

How close are you following this. Do you listen to speculation more than
facts? Sorry Roger but I think your wrong. 

Pete 

-----
With off the shelf parts you can build an affordable EV.
http://greenev.zapto.org/electricvw
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View this message in context: http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/Nissan-Leaf-tp2018207p2020043.html
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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Roger,

This is direct from the Nissan site about the Leaf. 


Q
Will the price include the battery pack? Or will there be an option to
rent/lease the battery pack?
A
The total cost of the vehicle will include the battery pack. Both lease and
purchase options will be available for the vehicle, but no option to
rent/lease just the battery pack.

Wow how easy was that. Straight from the Horses mouth. 5 minutes. One google
and here is your answer. No speculation here. It is the real McCoy. 

Here is the site to
prove:http://www.nissanusa.com/leaf-electric-car/faq/view/4#/leaf-electric-car/faq/view/4

-----
With off the shelf parts you can build an affordable EV.
http://greenev.zapto.org/electricvw
-- 
View this message in context: http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/Nissan-Leaf-tp2018207p2020051.html
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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Roger Heuckeroth wrote:
> > Are you absolutely sure? A year ago the $25k was the projected price
> > for the car sans batteries.
> 
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

I don't believe that word came from Nissan but speculation and folks believed
it. Yes I believe all are aware that the vehicle can cost $32K without
incentives. Even without them I'd be happy to pay $32K. How many pay more
for their toys. Thousands upon thousands pay that for their SUV's too. It
really is not that bad. I do however remember from whence I came and know
that many could never afford that. Been there done that. My change of career
made it possible to afford solar and a new vehicle. I still like to do
things on a tight budget and I have not debts except my TDI which will be
paid in a few months and my SUV and house payments. That is all. 

Anyway I have no unreal expectations on this vehicle. 

I don't think too many others do either. I hope for the full incentive
package but it may not happen. I don't think many of the new vehicles will
be very cheap. 

Pete 

-----
With off the shelf parts you can build an affordable EV.
http://greenev.zapto.org/electricvw
-- 
View this message in context: http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/Nissan-Leaf-tp2018207p2023173.html
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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

I stand corrected. I think where I got confused was that Project 
Better Place was saying that the Leaf alone would cost about $25K, and 
then you would buy their service and receive a battery from them. I 
understand the $25K is after the US fed rebate, so the $32K is the 
price with the 100 mile range battery. That makes sense I guess.



> gottdi wrote:
> 
> >
> > Roger,
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Rick Beebe wrote:
> 
> > Roger Heuckeroth wrote:
> >> Are you absolutely sure? A year ago the $25k was the projected
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

If anyone would a like a copy of the Nissan Leaf UK press pack, I have
a link. Supposed to launch here in March 2011.

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

What type of batteries does the Nissan Leaf use and where can I get 
them from?

Sent from iPhone

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

I,m not sure of the chemistry but I'll wager the best place to buy them will
be the auto wrecking yard from wrecked Leafs, and that will be soon after
they are delivered, like perhaps two weeks or a month. In a year or two more
will be readily available.

Regards,
Dennis Lee Miles (Director) E.V.T.I. inc.
*www.E-V-T-I-Inc.COM* (Adviser) EVTI-EVA Education Chapter
Phone (863) 944 - 9913
It=92s estimated that the existing U.S. electrical grid has sufficient
capacity
to fully fuel three-quarters of the nation=92s 217 million passenger
vehicles.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------=
----------------------


> Andrew Wood <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> > What type of batteries does the Nissan Leaf use and where can I get
> > them from?
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

The leaf will have a laminated lithium manganate battery pack (LiMn2O4). 
The batteries alone weight about 400lbs, with the control modules and
packaging they are about 600 lbs.

>From what I understand Nissan and NEC are working together in a joint
venture to build the batteries and Automotive Energy Supply is assembling
the packs.

Dave Kois
Current EV Tech, LLC
http://www.currentevtech.com
253-988-5020
Skype dkoisii

-----
Dave Kois
Current EV Tech, LLC
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