# Re: [EVDL] Volts, Amps and an iPod touch computer



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Volts, Amps and an iPod touch computer*

>> has built in wifi, when you park it in the garage at home, you could
>> access
>> all the data on your PC wirelessly.
>
> I think you've got it backwards. Instead of making the iPod or iPhone
> monitor the car directly (which would require hardware that Apple
> doesn't include), I'd use it as a front end to a car computer that
> stays in the car and monitors and controls things.
> leave my iPod in the car - it could get stolen, and besides I'd want
> to be playing with it all the time!  The iPod/iPhone would talk to
> the car computer with WiFi. The car computer would have a web server
> in it. You'd program the iPod/iPhone interface with the original Web
> 2.0 technologies they released it with on day one - no need for the
> new SDK.

Of course (Dooh!), excellent idea. You could even use any of the hundreds
of other handheld wifi capable units. Nokia N800 etc.

This definitely (in my mind) makes one of the Alix boards a top contender
for the carputer.


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Volts, Amps and an iPod touch computer*



> Doug Weathers wrote:
> redrocket wrote:
> >> thinking about a nice front end touch screen computer in the car.
> 
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Volts, Amps and an iPod touch computer*

I can speak to the computer in a car discussion and durability. I have had
a PC in my car since August of 2004. What have I learned in four years of
constant usage. Computers are more durable than most people give them
credit for. I am using a full ATX mainboard with an Athlon 64 Socket 754
Mobile CPU. Officially an MT-34 which dissapates 25watts. (for the PC
knowledgable I did an upgrade two years ago) It is mounted in a 4U
rackmountable chassis. The rackmounted chassis is mounted in a rack with
sliders in my trunk. It has been really good. It runs directly off of 12V
via a ATX power supply with big 12V screw terminals. I think the PSU can
support anything up to 48 volts but that isn't available in my old fashioned
ICE Grand Marquis. The monitor has been a real suprise. I am using a CTX
(generic) 15 inch LCD panel up front in the car and since it came with a 12V
brick I just cut the cord and wired it to run off of the computer PSU 12V
power. I have a USB hub under my seat and it is powered off of the 5V of
the computer. The harddrive is mounted on edge so bumps won't cause the
heads to hit the platter. With this system I have lived in Cincinnati,
Indianapolis, and Kansas City. It has lived outdoors and has been garaged.
Heat was an issue early on but I solved that some time ago without anything
exotic.

It is used anytime my car is. It is my car stereo and uses the optical
(Toslink) out to the car audio system to feed music. I don't have a
traditional car stereo. It runs Windows and I have a monster Wifi ant. on
the trunk for browsing the web. It also uses Garmin Mobile PC for
navigation along with the GPS18 USB receiver (which is externally mounted
via its integrated magnet).

I have wiring run so if I want to I can tie the carpc into the ODB module
connector but have never been quite that motivated. I did it back before
much of the nice stuff that is available today. The Via Epia platforms use
10 or so watts and can run direct off of 12V in a very small box.

So four years and counting. I have so far killed one DVDrom Drive. I think
the coldest the system has been when I fired it up was last winter after a
LONG day of work I went in to BIOS to check the temp and it displayed -10F.
Booted fine and listended to music all the way home. The LCD panel is
usually a little dim and slow but to be honest I never thought the LCD would
last four years.

-----Original Message-----
From: Lee Hart [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: Saturday, July 12, 2008 11:39 AM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Volts, Amps and an iPod touch computer




> Doug Weathers wrote:
> redrocket wrote:
> >> thinking about a nice front end touch screen computer in the car.
> 
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Volts, Amps and an iPod touch computer*



> > Doug Weathers wrote:
> > redrocket wrote:
> >>> thinking about a nice front end touch screen computer in the car.
> >
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Volts, Amps and an iPod touch computer*



> Jeff Miller wrote:
> > I can speak to the computer in a car discussion and durability. I
> > have had a PC in my car since August of 2004. What have I learned in
> > four years of constant usage. Computers are more durable than most
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Volts, Amps and an iPod touch computer*

Fair enough
So don't install a desktop PC in your car unless you really know what you
are getting yourself in to.

When I put it together I figured it would be a serious parts hog requiring
routine replacement pieces but what I have found is just the opposite.
There are certain precautions to take and number 1 is make sure it is
absolutely mechanically coupled to the car, unless you have some
unbelieveable exotic computer suspension system, you must firmly fix it to
the car so it doesn't bounce harder than the car. Put filters on the inlets
to keep the dust down. Use laptop or low power processors. Laptop
processors are usually rated to 170F or there abouts. Laptops are a pretty
bad idea unless you buy a Toughbook. In Phoenix your interior might get to
170 but your trunk probably doesn't unless it has windows. Don't use a
black car (I do have a black car but doing it all over again I wouldn't)
they get even hotter. Tint the back most windows to limit the amount of
solar energy going into the car and hence the computer. Use a sun shade.
Don't use exotic cooling. Water cooling gets hot and stays that way. Freon
or Peltier cooling could easily cause condensation even if the normal
precautions are taken. Use the least powerful computer you can to get the
job done.

My machine is overkill, but that is the way I am, but the Laptop CPU makes a
huge difference in its ability to operate in the car. It has a large
heatsink on it too.

Also realize I don't live where the roads are especially rough. I also
drive a Grand Marquis which is softer than most. Those two factors limit
the max shock my equipment sees day in and day out. Oh and I have driven
53,000 miles in those 4 years since installing the computer.

I will also say that in the past month or so I have started to experience a
sharp rise in reboots caused by the rougher pavement so I will be tracing
that back to the failing component. The last time this happened I had a
DVDRom drive that was failing on rough pavement and locking the PC up. As
my PC has two I just disconnected the extra however the second one may be
the current problem part. Only time will tell as I trouble shoot it.

To your point Lee I would tell almost anyone who watches TV that knoppmyth
(MythTV packaged into a distro) is an awesome DVR package and if they want
to try it I will help them set it up but I have never helped anyone else
install a computer in a car. I would consider my setup to be pretty close
to ideal for me! My wife doesn't like it though. She does like Knoppmyth.

Back to auto PC stuff

PC's designed for cars. Most of them look like car audio amplifiers.
http://www.mini-box.com/s.nl/sc.8/category.101/.f

Mini boards with low power
http://www.mini-box.com/VERSA-3-x-10-100-LAN-Port-Daughterboard?sc=8&categor
y=20

Cool mini power supply
http://www.mini-box.com/s.nl/it.A/id.417/.f;jsessionid=0a010c441f439ff512f3d
a164716ae53fdbce4908663.e3eTa3aSaxmTe34Pa38Ta38LbNb0?sc=8&category=13

There are plenty of solutions and other people selling them. The above site
has been around doing mobile stuff for quite some time but I have never
actually purchased anything there.

Jeff


-----Original Message-----
From: Lee Hart [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: Saturday, July 12, 2008 2:47 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Volts, Amps and an iPod touch computer




> Jeff Miller wrote:
> > I can speak to the computer in a car discussion and durability. I
> > have had a PC in my car since August of 2004. What have I learned in
> > four years of constant usage. Computers are more durable than most
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Volts, Amps and an iPod touch computer*



> Jeff Miller wrote:
> > Fair enough. So don't install a desktop PC in your car unless you really
> > know what you are getting yourself into...
> >
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Volts, Amps and an iPod touch computer*

Thanks for the reminder on Arduino. I actually had that site
bookmarked on del.icio.us but had completely forgot about it. The
Diecimila looks perfect for my needs and is only $35 from SparkFun
Electronics. It can be powered off its USB port, which the Freerunner
can provide (we'll see how long it can provide power to the Diecimilia
before completely draining its battery).

It looks like the analog inputs' resolutions are 1.07 mV at the
finest. Might be able to get a finer resolution with a lower external
voltage reference. Failing that, the board supports I2C. I know
there are tons of I2C chips that could give high resolution voltage
readings in the sub-mV range.

-Steven



> Doug Weathers <[email protected]> wrote:
> > If I were to do it today I'd probably use an Arduino with a WiFi
> > expansion card and the web server library.
> >
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Volts, Amps and an iPod touch computer*



> Peter VanDerWal wrote:
> 
> > This definitely (in my mind) makes one of the Alix boards a top
> > contender
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Volts, Amps and an iPod touch computer*



> Lee Hart wrote:
> 
> > Doug Weathers wrote:
> > redrocket wrote:
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Volts, Amps and an iPod touch computer*



> Lee Hart wrote:
> >> I know touch screens are a popular idea; but are you sure that's what
> >> you want the driver to be using? They require a significant amount of
> >> time with your eyes off the road.
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Volts, Amps and an iPod touch computer*

> From: Doug Weathers <[email protected]>
> 
> Navigation? The iPod touch and the iPhone both have a location 
> service that has a Google back end. The new iPhone has assisted GPS 
> so should be able to act as a GPS navigation device to some extent.

I do computers for a living (both full-time daily and my own home Web 
hosting business).

Using an iPod or iPhone for your application is the electronic 
equivalent of using a Mack 3-part road train to carry one suitcase 
across town, without passengers. Sure, you could do it, but there are so 
many less-expensive (and more elegant) solutions that no one who has 
less money than he has sense would actually do it. It's an interesting 
intellectual exercise, but actual implementation is just a silly idea.

This is not to say that *you* are silly - I just think you're ignoring 
the cost factor over the "bling" factor.


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Volts, Amps and an iPod touch computer*

> Using an iPod or iPhone for your application is the electronic
> equivalent of using a Mack 3-part road train to carry one suitcase
> across town, without passengers. Sure, you could do it, but there are so
> many less-expensive (and more elegant) solutions

True, but if the Mac happens to be going across town anyway...

Likewise, if one already /owns/ an iPod...

I don't have an iPod, but I have an N800. Lots of folks these days have
wifi enabled, web capable, hand held devices.

That's why I like the idea of a cheap, durable, computer with a
wifi/webserver



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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Volts, Amps and an iPod touch computer*



> Morely Dotes wrote:
> > Using an iPod or iPhone for your application is the electronic
> > equivalent of using a Mack 3-part road train to carry one
> > suitcase across town, without passengers. Sure, you could do it,
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Volts, Amps and an iPod touch computer*

Hi all,

My apologies for the long message. Apparently I have a lot to say 
about this topic.



> Morely Dotes wrote:
> 
> >> From: Doug Weathers <[email protected]>
> >>
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Volts, Amps and an iPod touch computer*

Lee,

Thanks for your input!



> Lee Hart wrote:
> 
> > I agree. A touchscreen or screen/keyboard setup is fine when you're not
> > driving.
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Volts, Amps and an iPod touch computer*

Doug said ...
> One man's bling is another man's feature

In this context, maybe that should read "One man's bling is another
man's cup holder" 

There is always linksys. Linksys has opened up their software for their
wireless routers and you can get OpenWRT and put other stuff on it.
Genericizing to "works with any wifi enabled smart phone" But you will
still have cables. My smart phone really sucks down the battery when
using wifi!


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Volts, Amps and an iPod touch computer*

> There is always linksys. Linksys has opened up their software for their
> wireless routers and you can get OpenWRT and put other stuff on it.

I haven't had much luck getting Linksys routers to survive the 80 degree
temperatures in my house, I doubt they'd last long in a car,


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Volts, Amps and an iPod touch computer*



> Doug Weathers wrote:
> Lee Hart wrote:
> >> I'm interested in what kind of user interface to have for when you
> >> *are* driving. Something that does *not* require you to take your eyes
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Volts, Amps and an iPod touch computer*



> Peter VanDerWal wrote:
> 
> > I haven't had much luck getting Linksys routers to survive the 80
> > degree
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Volts, Amps and an iPod touch computer*



> Janet Plato wrote:
> > I think you might be ignoring the 'already owns it' factor and
> > the 'general purpose computers can do many things' factor...
> > A lot of us are tired of single use applications. We like general
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Volts, Amps and an iPod touch computer*

> From: Doug Weathers <[email protected]>
> 
> My apologies for the long message. Apparently I have a lot to say 
> about this topic.

You're entitled.

> So you're saying that an iPhone front end and a web server carputer 
> back end is overkill, right?

Somewhere I missed the carputer backend bit. That part is a good idea, 
IMHO. Using an iPod or iPhone for anything at all is, also in my 
opinion, not. I just have an aversion to a $800/$600/$200 phone that 
can't voice dial, I suppose. (Oh, and Windows sucks rocks.)

> It is hard not to interpret your wording as condescending, but I'll 
> give it a try.

Good, I really am trying to avoid offending. I'm not always very good at it.

> - A wifi carputer gets rid of those dang wires.

Certainly. When it (the Wifi) works.

> To put it in your terms, I want the bling (rich elegant interface with 
> lots of functionality) and rather than having more money than sense, 
> I'm trying to put it together on the cheap, using minimal in-car 
> computing power and a GUI client front end that I (will someday) 
> already own.
> 
> Can you think of a better (cheaper) way to get me my bling?

Not if you intend to use the iThingy both inside and outside the car, 
and to play music, try to find your location (and good luck with that, 
GPS didn't save the life of the poor CNET staffer on what should have 
been a closed road in Winter), and distract you from driving.

> And what kind of non-bling solution would you suggest instead? Idiot 
> lights and LCD displays?

Gauges (either digital or analog) and a 4x20 LCD do it for me. A numeric 
keypad on the console allows me to control the carputer without looking 
at the pad. Yes, I have one (well, it's currently out of the car until I 
can find and stop the rain leaks in the trunk; but it works).



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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Volts, Amps and an iPod touch computer*



> > Janet Plato wrote:
> >> I think you might be ignoring the 'already owns it' factor and
> >> the 'general purpose computers can do many things' factor...
> >> A lot of us are tired of single use applications. We like general
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Volts, Amps and an iPod touch computer*

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Peter VanDerWal" <[email protected]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, July 15, 2008 7:46 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Volts, Amps and an iPod touch computer




> >> Janet Plato wrote:
> >>> I think you might be ignoring the 'already owns it' factor and
> >>> the 'general purpose computers can do many things' factor...
> >>> A lot of us are tired of single use applications. We like general
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Volts, Amps and an iPod touch computer*

I had been about to say I agree with Lee, now I agree with Peter too.
If the device is just to query the on board computer then writing an
application for the iPhone or other device like the N800 makes a lot of
sense. As Peter pointed out the N800 is quite inexpensive given the
full set of feature ($200 CDN). If you wrote the app in java you could
with some care get it to run on everything from a decent cell phone to
the iPhone or if you stick with N800 and iPhone type devices (iTouch
too) then a web interface with some java script is almost universal
these days.

If I was architecting the onboard computers I would use very small PIC
type devices for the low level monitoring and control then gather the
resulting data into a device like a gumstix then provide a web interface
over Bluetooth or WiFi that anything with a browser could query.

Just think, you drive into the carport or garage and the wireless
network connects to your house, possibly downloads all your trip data,
then instructs the charger on the best charging algorithms for the day
and finally sends you an email with a health report if anything looks
amiss.

Lawrence

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On
Behalf Of Peter VanDerWal
Sent: Tuesday, July 15, 2008 4:47 AM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Volts, Amps and an iPod touch computer



> > Janet Plato wrote:
> >> I think you might be ignoring the 'already owns it' factor and
> >> the 'general purpose computers can do many things' factor...
> >> A lot of us are tired of single use applications. We like general
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Volts, Amps and an iPod touch computer*

I'm kinda stuck in the old times ( I have a Palm Vx), but from what I 
have read the 'i' devices (phone, touch, pod) are getting rather closed. 
Yes, the iPhone is being opened up to developers, but everything goes 
thru Apple and is completely under their control. Newer generation iPods 
are security locked, so one can't install Linux or other hacks like you 
could do with first generation devices. I'm sure they say it is to keep 
'bad' hacks out ( I can see this for a phone), but I think it's all 
about control - you must use their carrier, you must use iTunes (which 
is tied in so close to the iTtunes store). It's a shame as an iPod nano 
or iTouch would be a cool interface to home-brew electronics. Which is 
probably why I use my Vx as my user interface; it's open, well 
supported, rugged, and cheap.

- SteveS



> Peter VanDerWal wrote:
> >> Janet Plato wrote:
> >>
> >>> I think you might be ignoring the 'already owns it' factor and
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Volts, Amps and an iPod touch computer*

Hi Bob, you are right. We don't need all this stuff but it's fun to
think about and for many of us they are fun toys. I also think that in
the real world of commercial vehicles (if we ever get there) they will
exist in some form because the monitoring of expensive battery systems
will be mandatory for warrantee reasons. Once you have put that in, the
turn by turn GPS display, on-board MP3 player and other stuff will just
naturally follow. Now I am blue sky'ing again but what if my car synced
with my music and podcast library every time I parked it - joy joy!

Your concerns about safety are well founded. Again though I think that
by integrating a lot of these items with technology like voice activated
controls and voice response systems we can at least mitigate some of the
dangers. If your GPS tells you what it's doing - even blacks out the
map display if you are moving. If your cell phone automatically pairs
with the car audio so you have unthinking hands free operation etc it
might make these gadgets that people are bound to have a little safer.
Other items like forward looking sensors that see the cars tail lights
and vibrate your accelerator when they brighten or sonar that applies
the breaks if the distance between you and an object in front decreases
too rapidly. The human mind is capable of re-focusing on the task at
hand quite quickly but since it can only really do one conscious thing
at a time and with today's distractions little, mostly unobtrusive,
warnings about potentially dangerous situations might help a lot.

 Lawrence

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On
Behalf Of Bob Rice
Sent: Tuesday, July 15, 2008 12:19 PM
To: [email protected]; Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Volts, Amps and an iPod touch computer


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Peter VanDerWal" <[email protected]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, July 15, 2008 7:46 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Volts, Amps and an iPod touch computer




> >> Janet Plato wrote:
> >>> I think you might be ignoring the 'already owns it' factor and
> >>> the 'general purpose computers can do many things' factor...
> >>> A lot of us are tired of single use applications. We like general
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Volts, Amps and an iPod touch computer*

Hey Bob, I take exception to that "reasonable comfort" stuff. Can
hardly drive more than an hour. Toughen up.



> Bob Rice <[email protected]> wrote:
> >
> >
> > Hi EVerybody;
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Volts, Amps and an iPod touch computer*



> SteveS <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> OK, this is off-topic, but I *do* use an iPhone for an EV data display
> and data logging!
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Volts, Amps and an iPod touch computer*



> Doug Weathers <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> >
> >
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Volts, Amps and an iPod touch computer*

>
>> > There is always linksys. Linksys has opened up their software for their
>> > wireless routers and you can get OpenWRT and put other stuff on it.
>> 
>
> I haven't had much luck getting Linksys routers to survive the 80 degree
> temperatures in my house, I doubt they'd last long in a car,
>
>
> 

This so true, I was gonna mention that and forgot. I just bought a newer
one and it doesn't get hot or even have a fan.
My older one had a tiny fan and it just got dusty and stopped then it
overheated and died.


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Volts, Amps and an iPod touch computer*

> I'm kinda stuck in the old times ( I have a Palm Vx), but from what I
> have read the 'i' devices (phone, touch, pod) are getting rather
> closed. Yes, the iPhone is being opened up to developers, but
> everything goes thru Apple and is completely under their control.
> Newer generation iPods are security locked, so one can't install Linux
> or other hacks like you could do with first generation devices. I'm
> sure they say it is to keep 'bad' hacks out ( I can see this for a
> phone), but I think it's all about control - you must use their
> carrier, you must use iTunes (which is tied in so close to the iTtunes
> store). It's a shame as an iPod nano or iTouch would be a cool
> interface to home-brew electronics. Which is probably why I use my Vx
> as my user interface; it's open, well supported, rugged, and cheap.
>
> - SteveS

Maybe the replacement for that would be the openmoko
http://www.openmoko.com/


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Volts, Amps and an iPod touch computer*



> dave cover wrote:
> > I've been quietly following this thread for a while, but want to get back to
> > an earlier part of the conversation. I too am an EV driving programming geek
> > and love the idea of using something like the Arduino unit. I've seen a few
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Volts, Amps and an iPod touch computer*

Hi Dave,

I'm sorry if I've left you with the wrong impression, but I haven't 
actually ever used an Arduino. The only microcontroller I've played 
with to date is a Lego Mindstorms brick. Also, my EV isn't yet on the 
road. All of my gushing about the Arduino is pure blue sky 
brainstorming.

It all *seems* reasonable and doable but I haven't yet done any of it.

OK, with the disclaimer out of the way, I will continue to pontificate 




> dave cover wrote:
> 
> > Doug
> >
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Volts, Amps and an iPod touch computer*

We are working with a single board microcontroller called a Rabbit right
now. For a PV monitoring and display project, not an EV project, but it
might be of interest for this discussion
http://www.rabbit.com/
If it works out well, I might try to do some sort of datalogging for my EV
with one of them. Or I could always buy an EVision, I suppose 

Z



> Doug Weathers <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> > Hi Dave,
> >
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Volts, Amps and an iPod touch computer*

Great, thanks for the info!

Squinting at the pictures, I was able to work out that the model number 
of the PLC is D0-06DR-D. Looking that up on the 
www.automationdirect.com site leads me here:

<http://web1.automationdirect.com/adc/Shopping/Catalog/ 
Programmable_Controllers/ 
DirectLogic_Series_PLCs_(Micro_to_Small,_Brick_-a-_Modular)/ 
DirectLogic_06_(Expandable_Micro_Brick_PLC)/PLC_Units/D0-06DR-D>

Tiny version:

<http://tinyurl.com/586a5g>

It looks like the PLC controller itself costs about $240, but I expect 
there's a lot of other stuff you'd need to get, like the display ($80) 
and the programming software ($300).

Does the book have enough information to add up the cost of all his PLC 
hardware and software?





> Rick Beebe wrote:
> 
> > I just got a copy of "The Zero Carbon Car"
> > (http://aztext.com/zero_carbon_car.cfm) in large part because he
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Volts, Amps and an iPod touch computer*

I have used this PLC on my company's air pollution control systems, 
and can vouch for its easy of use and programing. I was thinking 
about using the DL-06 on my conversion to do about the same functions 
as they are using it for. Its a very powerful controller in a small 
package. I own the software and cables, so that would not be an 
expense for me. The nice thing about using it is that you can install 
a color touch screen to it via ethernet and program it so you can make 
changes on the fly. Also, it has two RS232 ports one for uploading 
the code and the other could conceivably be connected to the Zilla 
Hairball to monitor the controllers parameters.

For now though I'm going to concentrate on getting it rolling, and 
play with the rest of this stuff another day.



> Doug Weathers wrote:
> 
> > Great, thanks for the info!
> >
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Volts, Amps and an iPod touch computer*

Is it safe to assume since you're talking about unlocked and
pay-as-you-go that your iPhone is hacked? My understanding was that
you could run anything on the iPhone that wasn't signed by Apple.

-Steven



> Evan Tuer <[email protected]> wrote:
> > On Tue, Jul 15, 2008 at 8:21 PM, SteveS <[email protected]> wrote:
> >
> > OK, this is off-topic, but I *do* use an iPhone for an EV data display
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Volts, Amps and an iPod touch computer*



> Doug Weathers wrote:
> > Hi Dave,
> >
> > I'm sorry if I've left you with the wrong impression, but I haven't
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Volts, Amps and an iPod touch computer*

I had started looking at a Basic Stamp kit a while back. Even bought a
starter kit from Parallax. But this looks like it has more to it, more like
a regular computer I'm used to. Of course, I would hope that it would be
easy to aquire data (volts, amps, temperature, etc). And save or transmit
what it collects. I thought I saw some add on kits for that.

As to the C programming language, it's not bad at all. It got a scarry
reputation a while ago, mainly due to memory management, but it wasn't bad.
I reallly enjoyed it. If you are familiar with Java, then you will probably
recognize a lot in C. Now, all of this is in general terms, there are
various flavors of all languages. I don't know what their C is like. But if
you look at the original C programming guide by K&R, it's not much bigger
than an average Readers Digest. Of course, that was long before Windows, of
any variety. Ok, enough old programmer tripe.
The one reason I wouldn't want to use an iPhone or similar is size. I'd want
something large enough so I could glance at once in a while to see how
things are going, just like your current dash board.

Dave Cover




> Lee Hart <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> > Doug Weathers wrote:
> > > Hi Dave,
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Volts, Amps and an iPod touch computer*



> Lee Hart wrote:
> 
> > What bothers
> > me is that you have to program it in C (which I don't know),
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Volts, Amps and an iPod touch computer*

After reading through all this.....

How could you use WiFi in a REALLY HIGH Noise environment? I used to do
radio studies for my last job at 2.4ghz and 900mhz, and any time we turned
on a drive (5-10Hp) it would totally hose the system and it wouldn't come
back on for a while. They were AC, shielded in MCC cabinets, grounded and
totally isolated from the wifi that was working somewhere else. It kept
shutting down, even with the NICE Cisco wifi routers.

I know you could put it inside the car, but EMI for a 144V 500A+ controller
is going to be pretty hard to get away from, even with shielding. I mean,
MAX distance you could get away from it is a couple feet from the dashboard.
Wonder what kind of EMI the Ipod Touch could handle?

You'd be better off using the serial port on the Ipod Touch/Iphone
http://www.pcables.com/cat7.html
Make sure to isolate the serial with optoisolators or something similar.
Then run this to the Arduino or whatever you want.

When working with high noise, and possibly the control of devices
(interfacing to the controller), Its better to hardwire things, than it is
to try to go wirless. This coming from experience in the field.

Anyone tried Wifi in their car while they're running the car? Someone with
an Ipod/iphone try to connect their computer to ipod/iphone while they're
driving. It'd be an interesting test.

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Volts, Amps and an iPod touch computer*

I have friends that have played games on their laptops over wifi
between two cars traveling down the highway. I guess it worked pretty
well.

-Steven



> Travis Gintz <[email protected]> wrote:
> > After reading through all this.....
> >
> > How could you use WiFi in a REALLY HIGH Noise environment? I used to do
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Volts, Amps and an iPod touch computer*



> Travis Gintz wrote:
> > After reading through all this.....
> >
> > How could you use WiFi in a REALLY HIGH Noise environment? I used to do
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Volts, Amps and an iPod touch computer*



> Lee Hart wrote:
> >> What bothers me is that you have to program it in C (which I don't
> >> know)
> 
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Volts, Amps and an iPod touch computer*

>> How could you use WiFi in a REALLY HIGH Noise environment?



> Steven wrote:
> > I have friends that have played games on their laptops over wifi
> > between two cars traveling down the highway. I guess it worked
> > pretty well.
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Volts, Amps and an iPod touch computer*

>> How could you use WiFi in a REALLY HIGH Noise environment? I used to do
>> radio studies for my last job at 2.4ghz and 900mhz, and any time we
-snip-
> Personally I think Bluetooth is a better choice for this application. I
> like the idea of a wifi-enabled car that could talk to the house when I
> got home, but for interfacing a handheld in the car with the car
> computer, I'd use Bluetooth.

Hmm, same frequencies as WiFi but even LESS power and generally using
receivers that are LESS sensitive.

My guess is that if WiFi is having problems, Bluetooth will be worse.

Of course the real question is, will EVs effect 2.4ghz signals? That is
an interesting question.


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Volts, Amps and an iPod touch computer*



> Peter VanDerWal <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> > Hmm, same frequencies as WiFi but even LESS power and generally using
> > receivers that are LESS sensitive.
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Volts, Amps and an iPod touch computer*



> Evan Tuer wrote:
> 
> > Both bluetooth and wifi works fine in my EV.
> 
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Volts, Amps and an iPod touch computer*



> Peter VanDerWal wrote:
> >>> How could you use WiFi in a REALLY HIGH Noise environment? I used to do
> >>> radio studies for my last job at 2.4ghz and 900mhz, and any time we
> > -snip-
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Volts, Amps and an iPod touch computer*

> BASIC (in its purest form) is this sort of pigden language. Something
> people can pick up quickly, and get just good enough to get by. It's not
> far removed from trying to figure out the functions on the remote for
> your new TV.

Basic is generally (though not necessarily) an interpreted language. The
interpreter is usually written in C or Assembly, so someone somewhere will
have to program the original code. Granted with something like a basic
stamp this is already done.

Anyway, if I was going to go this way, I wouldn't necessarily limit myself
to basic. There are a few other languages that are easy to pick up and
might be more appropriate. Logo, for example, is such a simple language
that they used to teach it to third graders. Logo, as is, isn't really
appropriate, but you could build an EV language using similar concepts.

Since we are throwing out ideas. I also like the Oopic. They are cheap,
about $50, or $60 for a starter kit which includes a programing cable and
a 9V battery cable.

It's available with either Basic, C or Java.
31 digital I/O lines, 4 analog, 1 serial, 1 I2C. It's relatively small,
can store 4096 instructions or up to 32768 with optional eeprom,
networkable with up to 128 devices.
Oh, and it will run from 6V to 18V.

http://www.oopic.com/con40.htm

Here is a comparison to the basic stamp:
http://www.oopic.com/vsbs.htm

I have the Oopic-R board, which is designed for robotics, etc. It has 16
(RC type) servo connections, two PWM outputs, etc.


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Volts, Amps and an iPod touch computer*

Actually all, I think what's being discussed are two or even three
different scenario's.

Whatever you do you are probably not going to give your end user the raw
microcomputer device and a programming instruction manual. You write
the program and give the user an 'interface' to your device. If you
don't lock the device and hide the programming you might give them the
source code and the programming manual along with a denial of warrantee
and support so they can modify the code. Then ask nicely for bug fixes
and enhancements you might incorporate in a future software release.

So you write the code using whatever language is (a) available and (b)
you are comfortable with. The user then uses the interface that is
hopefully simpler and more directly applicable to the end use.

For hobbyist/prototype user the Basic STAMP is quite popular because
they have built a simple language that creates simple interfaces to the
I/O on the device. In essence they have used C or Assembler to program
it and given the (first  ) end user something they can work with.
This allows a someone with little hardware programming experience the
ability to do useful things. They call this BASIC but it's only
superficially related to the Dartmouth origins of the name. Generally
however this end user uses the simplified Stamp BASIC and writes a
program that further provides the next end user an even simpler
interface that may or may not be further programmable.

Lawrence

Note if you want something between the Stamp BASIC and C there are
products like PICBASIC that are compatible with Stamp BASIC but true
compilers that give you the potential for faster programs and some
expandability to use the features of PIC's that that Stamp BASIC does
not support. However you have the addition expense of a slightly more
complex language and programming environment but potentially lower cost
since you don't need to buy the Stamp BASIC interpreter.

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On
Behalf Of Lee Hart
Sent: Thursday, July 17, 2008 7:09 AM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Volts, Amps and an iPod touch computer



> Lee Hart wrote:
> >> What bothers me is that you have to program it in C (which I don't
> >> know)
> 
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Volts, Amps and an iPod touch computer*

>
> After reading through all this.....
>
> How could you use WiFi in a REALLY HIGH Noise environment? I used to do
> radio studies for my last job at 2.4ghz and 900mhz, and any time we turned
> on a drive (5-10Hp) it would totally hose the system and it wouldn't come
> back on for a while. They were AC, shielded in MCC cabinets, grounded and
> totally isolated from the wifi that was working somewhere else. It kept
> shutting down, even with the NICE Cisco wifi routers.
>
> I know you could put it inside the car, but EMI for a 144V 500A+ controller
> is going to be pretty hard to get away from, even with shielding. I mean,
> MAX distance you could get away from it is a couple feet from the dashboard.
> Wonder what kind of EMI the Ipod Touch could handle?
>
> You'd be better off using the serial port on the Ipod Touch/Iphone
> http://www.pcables.com/cat7.html
> Make sure to isolate the serial with optoisolators or something similar.
> Then run this to the Arduino or whatever you want.
>
> When working with high noise, and possibly the control of devices
> (interfacing to the controller), Its better to hardwire things, than it is
> to try to go wirless. This coming from experience in the field.
>
> Anyone tried Wifi in their car while they're running the car? Someone with
> an Ipod/iphone try to connect their computer to ipod/iphone while they're
> driving. It'd be an interesting test.
> 

I was thinking of using zigbee or zigbee+ In the ISM band, it has good
distance but different freq in us and europe. Also in the 2.4Ghz range
common to foreign and domestic, it can co-exist with wifi and is
designed to work in noisey environments. (spread spectrum freq hopping)


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Volts, Amps and an iPod touch computer*

Why do we have bluetooth, wifi, zigbee, etc.

They are each optimized for different things
freq determines max data throughput
freq inversely determines transmission distance
freq hopping and collision detection determine effective speed in noisy
environments.

wifi is optimized for throughput of large packets, med distances with
power to spare on both ends.
bluetooth is optimized for low latency short distance but high speed
with low power.(hince the short distance)
The overhead for packets is a lot lower than wifi, so the device at
the other end can be extremely simple and low power.\
900mhz ISM band is optimized for low power, low throughput long
distance. allow 2 mile smart keyfob.(zigbee capable)
2,4 zigbee faster throughput, universal acceptance
zigbee is optimized for lower speed, low overhead, operation in
noisy environments. It started as sensor networks but quickly became
"control and monitoring"
(this is done with DSSS an acyronym for something like direct
sequencing spread spectrum that means they scroll through a set of
frequencies and when corruption occurs in a particular band, they remove
that sub-band from the next rotation of the frequency pool. This is done
fast enough that a noise source that walks through a freq range can be
successfully transmitted around.



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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Volts, Amps and an iPod touch computer*

I have avoided commenting on this software discussion because I am
biased. (I personally would choose c or assembly for micro's, )

A software person starting with binary programming of a computer built
from a kit in popular electronics to applesoft basic (from a time when
microsoft was the company that wrote the basic for Apple) I wrote games
in machine language, getting my first assembler was a blessing. moved to
pascal,fortran,cobol,C,C++,sparc assembly,....I could go on.

I think a main point here is not "basic vs C" it is "compiled vs
interpreted". The basic stamp can be communicated with and programmed by
anyone directly.

If we are talking about C, the code must be compiled, actually "cross
compiled" (and sometimes Canadian cross compiled.) then the bin file
transfered.
There is and immediate C for some micro's.

I generally choose C becuase it is close to the machine, which is needed
for writing advanced code for micros. Kinda like using and electric car
for short trips, the right tool for the job. But I will gladdly use the
basic stamp for things simple enough to warrant it.


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Volts, Amps and an iPod touch computer*



> Jeff Shanab <[email protected]> wrote:
> > (this is done with DSSS an acyronym for something like direct
> > sequencing spread spectrum that means they scroll through a set of
> > frequencies and when corruption occurs in a particular band, they remove
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Volts, Amps and an iPod touch computer*

> I was thinking of using zigbee or zigbee+ In the ISM band, it has good
> distance but different freq in us and europe. Also in the 2.4Ghz range
> common to foreign and domestic, it can co-exist with wifi and is
> designed to work in noisey environments. (spread spectrum freq hopping)

But it's not as well supported as WiFi/Bluetooth so you're limiting your
options.
Then again, if you're only designing something for your own personal use,
that doesn't really matter.


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Volts, Amps and an iPod touch computer*

> (this is done with DSSS an acyronym for something like direct
> sequencing spread spectrum that means they scroll through a set of
> frequencies and when corruption occurs in a particular band, they remove
> that sub-band from the next rotation of the frequency pool. This is done
> fast enough that a noise source that walks through a freq range can be
> successfully transmitted around.
>

Actually what you're describing is Frequency Hopping Spread Spectrum(FHSS).

DSSS uses a chip clock that is much faster than the symbol rate, so the
frequency changes several times per symbol (each symbol can represent one
or more bits). On the receiver it demodulates all the samples and then
sort of averages them.
If the chip clock is ten times the symbol rate, then you'll get 10
samples. If 9 of them decode to a One and 1 of them decodes to a Zero
(due to noise) it calls it a One.
This is overly simplify and isn't precisely how it works, but it's close
enough to give you the idea.


FWIW 802.11b/g uses DSSS, Bluetooth uses FHSS


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Volts, Amps and an iPod touch computer*

Ok, I stand corrected on the details. (It has been a year since I was
into it, why i said something like...)

The point was that it was designed for low power with small packets with
low latency and overhead in a noisy environment.

The small packets and low overhead allow you to sleep between
transmissions and also wake quickly on incoming signal.


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Volts, Amps and an iPod touch computer*

Hm, i just found this post, quoting one I appear to have deleted,
someone (I cant tell which) either SteveS or Evan Tuer, saying they have
a "Jailbroken" iphone as an ev interface. 

This intrigues me since I recently got an iphone, cracked it, and have
it on my dash whilst driving, playing mp3's etc. 

I find the touchscreen very usable when driving. Compared to other
touchscreen phones its got very big "buttons" as its designed for
fingers, not stylus.

If the person who is using their iphone in an ev could speak up, id love
to know more about the software/interface you use / have developed...




-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On
Behalf Of Steven **
Sent: 16 July 2008 20:18
To: [email protected]; Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Volts, Amps and an iPod touch computer

Is it safe to assume since you're talking about unlocked and
pay-as-you-go that your iPhone is hacked? My understanding was that
you could run anything on the iPhone that wasn't signed by Apple.

-Steven



> Evan Tuer <[email protected]> wrote:
> > On Tue, Jul 15, 2008 at 8:21 PM, SteveS <[email protected]>
> wrote:
> >
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Volts, Amps and an iPod touch computer*



> Robin Lawrie <[email protected]>wrote:
> 
> > Hm, i just found this post, quoting one I appear to have deleted,
> > someone (I cant tell which) either SteveS or Evan Tuer, saying they have
> ...


----------

