# [EVDL] battery help



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

I am looking at getting some batteries that will make my 28 mile commute. I have a prestolite MTC4001, and a curtis 1231C, in the old style bug. I would like to run between 120 v and 144 v, because of the DC-DC I have. I would like to have some battery recommendations. I have heard the suggestion that T-105 would be good, but that might be getting a bit on the heavy side for my car. I think that I could fit 1200 lbs of batteries. I at one point considered 30 XHS, but saw on the evalbum, someone had a bad experience. Does anyone else have any experience? I have heard that some have bad experience with the 8V batteries, but others like it. 

My requirements: 28 mile commute consistent for the next 4 months. After that, it will be no more than 10 miles. But occasionally I would still like to be able to drive the 30 miles or so.

What are good batteries to use. And if you know of good prices, I would appreciate that as well.

Thanks,
Brian
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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Hi,
Don't know if your 28 mi. commute is in warm, or
cold weather, or both. I'm running 144V of US Battery
8V, and they would definitely take you the distance,
no matter what the weather. Whether the bug could
handle the weight... that's another matter.
Best of luck with your decision.
Sincerely, 



> --- "[email protected]" <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> > I am looking at getting some batteries that will
> > make my 28 mile commute. I have a prestolite
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Let say a set of batteries in your rig uses about 2 AH per mile, so to go 28 
miles, this would required a minimum of 56 AH battery if you want to 
discharge it down to 100% DOD which is not good. It is best to keep at or 
above 50% DOD, so this now makes the battery AH at 112 AH.

But, a EV is not normally driven at the 20 hour AH rate, meaning a 220 AH 
battery would have to be discharge at no more then 11 amps per hour for 20 
hours.

The T-105 battery is rated for 225 AH, and at 75 amps it has a reserved 
capacity of 115 minutes. The more amps you draw from the battery, the 
amount of reserved minutes is reduce, thus the AH becomes:

115 mins / 60 = 1.9 hrs

1.9 hrs x 75 amps = 142 AH

Discharging this type of battery to 50% DOD is about 71 AH.

A EV using 2 AH per mile, will be about a 35 miles range.

To get 2 AH per mile, you would have to drive non-stop, not stopping and 
acceleration at each light, no hill climbing or grades and stay under 75 
battery amps.

But normally you may be as high as 4 AH per mile at times, so lets say the 
average is about 3 AH per mile. Then your range may be 71/3= 24 miles at 
50% D0D or average of (35+24)/2 = 29 miles. Looks like you will just make 
it with a 225 AH battery.

Roland




----- Original Message ----- 
From: <[email protected]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, August 16, 2007 7:00 AM
Subject: [EVDL] battery help


> I am looking at getting some batteries that will make my 28 mile commute. 
> I have a prestolite MTC4001, and a curtis 1231C, in the old style bug. I 
> would like to run between 120 v and 144 v, because of the DC-DC I have. I 
> would like to have some battery recommendations. I have heard the 
> suggestion that T-105 would be good, but that might be getting a bit on 
> the heavy side for my car. I think that I could fit 1200 lbs of 
> batteries. I at one point considered 30 XHS, but saw on the evalbum, 
> someone had a bad experience. Does anyone else have any experience? I 
> have heard that some have bad experience with the 8V batteries, but others 
> like it.
>
> My requirements: 28 mile commute consistent for the next 4 months. After 
> that, it will be no more than 10 miles. But occasionally I would still 
> like to be able to drive the 30 miles or so.
>
> What are good batteries to use. And if you know of good prices, I would 
> appreciate that as well.
>
> Thanks,
> Brian
> ---- Msg sent via @=WebMail - http://webmail.usu.edu/
>
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
> 

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> [email protected] wrote:
> > I am looking at getting some batteries that will make my 28 mile
> > commute... Prestolite MTC4001, Curtis 1231C, in the old style bug...
> > 120-144v... I would like to have some battery recommendations.
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> On 16 Aug 2007 at 7:00, [email protected] wrote:
> 
> > I am looking [for] batteries that will make my 28 mile commute.
> 
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

[No message]


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

It is 28 miles round trip. I should be able to charge at the halfway point as well.

What is your suggestion on batteries?

Brian


On Thu Aug 16 9:54 , David Roden <[email protected]> sent:



> >On 16 Aug 2007 at 7:00, [email protected] wrote:
> >
> >> I am looking [for] batteries that will make my 28 mile commute.
> >
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> On 16 Aug 2007 at 10:29, [email protected] wrote:
> 
> > It is 28 miles round trip. I should be able to charge at the halfway point as
> > well.
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Hi David et al.,

I have a question about your statement that voltage is unimportant for 
range. I realize that providing current determines range (as long as 
you can provide X amps, you can keep going) and that voltage equates to 
speed. However, doesn't adding additional series batteries (like going 
from say, 96V to 108V) add capacity and thus increase range? Since you 
have more batteries/lead, don't they provide more capacity and hence 
more range? It is certainly easier for 18 6volt golf cart batteries to 
provide, say, 200 amps than it is for 16 6volt batteries. I've heard 
folks argue that adding batteries won't give extra range, so I thought 
I'd ask for clarification.

tnx,
john



> David Roden wrote:
> > Voltage is unimportant for range.
> 
> _______________________________________________
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

[No message]


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> I realize that providing current determines range

Not quite. Current gives you torque and torque provides acceleration.

> voltage equates to speed

It depends on the situation. Sometimes this happens. Not always. Voltage 
is not the only factor influencing top speed. A motor and controller system 
can be designed to give you almost any top speed from almost any voltage. 
That's why I say the best way to design an EV is to start by determing what 
battery will serve your needs, then design the rest of the drive system to 
work with the battery.

> Since you have more batteries/lead, don't they provide more 
> capacity and hence more range? 

Again, there are various factors in play. But in general, lead is your 
fuel; more of it gives you more range. You can get more lead by using more 
batteries. You can also get more lead by using fewer batteries, but larger 
ones. 

Someone mentioned amp-hours as proportional to range. This isn't quite 
right either, unless voltage is held constant. Range is influenced by Watt-
hours of energy storage. 

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Like David said range is by wh

Analogy is
gals * miles/gal = miles range
usable kwh / (wh/mile) = miles range (some people use miles/wh just
to make the analogy stronger)

My ev gets an awful 400ish wh/mile
I have 24 orbitals that are 36ah at 1 hr rate
24*12*36=10kwh *.8=8.3kwh/400(wh/m) = 21 miles (the .8 is never take
lead below 20%soc)

That is a maximum on a new pack and at 16 miles the voltage sag is too
much for my liking. I think part of the reason my first pack got
murdered was that I use my power in 1/2 hour. The batteries are more
probably more like 24ah; which works out to 17 miles. After I switched
jobs where i was no longer topping off at work and the weather turned
cold the 12 miles I was driving dipped below the 20%soc.

I know the mileage(wh/mile) is dismal. but at least 3 people in the last
month from work, who drive similar route, have commented on the fact
that the EV is not slow. They all seem surprised. (just wait until i get
the lifepo4 pack!)



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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Thanks David and all,

I was really just looking for confirmation that adding two additional 
batteries to the voltsrabbit design would boost the range. Of course, I 
should know that I really need to be correct and explicit in my 
terminology when I ask questions here.

Thanks again,
John

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Joseph,

You've been working too hard this summer. Adding batteries and leaving everything else the same will always add range. In fact in the case of lead acid batteries the range can be determined almost exclusively by how much weight in batteries you are carrying. Whether they are in series or parallel makes very little difference.

BTW - I should be down at the track watching the Nedra guys run right now, but it's looking like a possible rain out tonight. I called Wayland about a half hour ago and they had cars lined up on the track trying to keep it dry hoping the rain will pass.

damon> Wait a minute, guys - as has been stated before, adding batteries will NOT > necessarily give you more range! It will give you somewhat better > performance, all else being equal. The amp-hours remains the same for any > number of batteries connected in series, and the additional weight will > negate most of the benefit beyond a certain point.> > Batteries connected in parallel will give more range, batteries connected in > series will boost performance.> > Joseph H. Strubhar> 
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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Correct,

Adding batteries will always increase the amount of
energy that you are carrying and it is the energy that
gives you range.
You can easily see that from the reasoning that Joe used:
Adding batteries in series will not give more Ah, so he
drew the (false) conclusion that the range will not
increase when the Ah stay the same and only the voltage
increases. But if you look at how a controller works then
you see that the controller will perform a task called
"current multiplication" when the output voltage is
lower than the input voltage, (almost) equal to the
rate between the two.
Eaxmple: 120V and 100A input from the battery pack can 
result in 60V and (almost) 200A output into the motor,
to maintain a certain driving speed.
Both are (almost) the same amount of power: 12kW.
Now if two batteries are added to the pack, the same
power is delivered at 144V when the batteries deliver
approx 80A.
This means that each battery delivers less power and 
this means that it can deliver the required power for
a longer period, because the total energy contained
in the pack is increased by adding batteries.

Hope this clarifies,

Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
Email: [email protected] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [email protected]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Second Life: www.secondlife.com/?u=3b42cb3f4ae249319edb487991c30acb

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of damon henry
Sent: Saturday, August 18, 2007 8:19 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] battery help


Joseph,

You've been working too hard this summer. Adding batteries and leaving everything else the same will always add range. In fact in the case of lead acid batteries the range can be determined almost exclusively by how much weight in batteries you are carrying. Whether they are in series or parallel makes very little difference.

BTW - I should be down at the track watching the Nedra guys run right now, but it's looking like a possible rain out tonight. I called Wayland about a half hour ago and they had cars lined up on the track trying to keep it dry hoping the rain will pass.

damon> Wait a minute, guys - as has been stated before, adding batteries 
damon> will NOT > necessarily give you more range! It will give you 
damon> somewhat better > performance, all else being equal. The 
damon> amp-hours remains the same for any > number of batteries 
damon> connected in series, and the additional weight will > negate most 
damon> of the benefit beyond a certain point.> > Batteries connected in 
damon> parallel will give more range, batteries connected in > series 
damon> will boost performance.> > Joseph H. Strubhar>
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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

You are using the engineering philosophy that the theory always can be 
reduced to practical reality - I have done this, and can testify that it 
doesn't work out that way, and my friend John Wayland explained to me why it 
doesn't, which I have passed on to you!

Joseph H. Strubhar

Web: www.gremcoinc.com

E-mail: [email protected]


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Cor van de Water" <[email protected]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Saturday, August 18, 2007 8:54 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] battery help


> Correct,
>
> Adding batteries will always increase the amount of
> energy that you are carrying and it is the energy that
> gives you range.
> You can easily see that from the reasoning that Joe used:
> Adding batteries in series will not give more Ah, so he
> drew the (false) conclusion that the range will not
> increase when the Ah stay the same and only the voltage
> increases. But if you look at how a controller works then
> you see that the controller will perform a task called
> "current multiplication" when the output voltage is
> lower than the input voltage, (almost) equal to the
> rate between the two.
> Eaxmple: 120V and 100A input from the battery pack can
> result in 60V and (almost) 200A output into the motor,
> to maintain a certain driving speed.
> Both are (almost) the same amount of power: 12kW.
> Now if two batteries are added to the pack, the same
> power is delivered at 144V when the batteries deliver
> approx 80A.
> This means that each battery delivers less power and
> this means that it can deliver the required power for
> a longer period, because the total energy contained
> in the pack is increased by adding batteries.
>
> Hope this clarifies,
>
> Cor van de Water
> Systems Architect
> Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
> Email: [email protected] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
> Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [email protected]
> Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
> Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
> Second Life: www.secondlife.com/?u=3b42cb3f4ae249319edb487991c30acb
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On 
> Behalf Of damon henry
> Sent: Saturday, August 18, 2007 8:19 PM
> To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] battery help
>
>
> Joseph,
>
> You've been working too hard this summer. Adding batteries and leaving 
> everything else the same will always add range. In fact in the case of 
> lead acid batteries the range can be determined almost exclusively by how 
> much weight in batteries you are carrying. Whether they are in series or 
> parallel makes very little difference.
>
> BTW - I should be down at the track watching the Nedra guys run right now, 
> but it's looking like a possible rain out tonight. I called Wayland about 
> a half hour ago and they had cars lined up on the track trying to keep it 
> dry hoping the rain will pass.
>
> damon> Wait a minute, guys - as has been stated before, adding batteries
> damon> will NOT > necessarily give you more range! It will give you
> damon> somewhat better > performance, all else being equal. The
> damon> amp-hours remains the same for any > number of batteries
> damon> connected in series, and the additional weight will > negate most
> damon> of the benefit beyond a certain point.> > Batteries connected in
> damon> parallel will give more range, batteries connected in > series
> damon> will boost performance.> > Joseph H. Strubhar>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Invite your mail contacts to join your friends list with Windows Live 
> Spaces. It's easy!
> http://spaces.live.com/spacesapi.aspx?wx_action=create&wx_url=/friends.aspx&mkt=en-us
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>
> _______________________________________________
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> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
> 

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Huh? I thought this was answered.

I have been skimming but...watts is watts. Miles is wh/ (wh/mile) 
and wh is (ah*volts) (run thru your calculation in units first and
you will see)

Given the same efficiency, 120V at 100ah is same as 240V at 50ah, both
are 12kwh

(12000wh*.8)/ (300wh/mile) = 32miles.

When we start to consider pukerts and the ah if used in an hour. And the
I^2R losses. It gets worse from here.





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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Hi Joe,

You may want to consult with John again (or ask Lee)
if you do not believe me, but you should get the same
answer from them, as physics laws do not lie.
You can manipulate an experiment of course, for example
pull away from every stop at may throttle - with the
higher voltage you will be pulling MORE amps from the
battery instead of less as soon as the controller is
out of current limit, so that will ruin your range.
You will have more fun but to compare the two trips
as apples to apples comparison, you should use equal
motor amps (driving at the same speed and acceleration)
and them you will see that adding batteries does indeed
add range.

Success experimenting,

Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
Email: [email protected] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [email protected]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Second Life: www.secondlife.com/?u=3b42cb3f4ae249319edb487991c30acb

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of joe
Sent: Sunday, August 19, 2007 12:52 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] battery help

You are using the engineering philosophy that the theory always can be reduced to practical reality - I have done this, and can testify that it doesn't work out that way, and my friend John Wayland explained to me why it doesn't, which I have passed on to you!

Joseph H. Strubhar

Web: www.gremcoinc.com

E-mail: [email protected]


----- Original Message -----
From: "Cor van de Water" <[email protected]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Saturday, August 18, 2007 8:54 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] battery help


> Correct,
>
> Adding batteries will always increase the amount of
> energy that you are carrying and it is the energy that
> gives you range.
> You can easily see that from the reasoning that Joe used:
> Adding batteries in series will not give more Ah, so he
> drew the (false) conclusion that the range will not
> increase when the Ah stay the same and only the voltage
> increases. But if you look at how a controller works then
> you see that the controller will perform a task called
> "current multiplication" when the output voltage is
> lower than the input voltage, (almost) equal to the
> rate between the two.
> Eaxmple: 120V and 100A input from the battery pack can
> result in 60V and (almost) 200A output into the motor,
> to maintain a certain driving speed.
> Both are (almost) the same amount of power: 12kW.
> Now if two batteries are added to the pack, the same
> power is delivered at 144V when the batteries deliver
> approx 80A.
> This means that each battery delivers less power and
> this means that it can deliver the required power for
> a longer period, because the total energy contained
> in the pack is increased by adding batteries.
>
> Hope this clarifies,
>
> Cor van de Water
> Systems Architect
> Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
> Email: [email protected] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
> Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [email protected]
> Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
> Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
> Second Life: www.secondlife.com/?u=3b42cb3f4ae249319edb487991c30acb
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On 
> Behalf Of damon henry
> Sent: Saturday, August 18, 2007 8:19 PM
> To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] battery help
>
>
> Joseph,
>
> You've been working too hard this summer. Adding batteries and leaving 
> everything else the same will always add range. In fact in the case of 
> lead acid batteries the range can be determined almost exclusively by how 
> much weight in batteries you are carrying. Whether they are in series or 
> parallel makes very little difference.
>
> BTW - I should be down at the track watching the Nedra guys run right now, 
> but it's looking like a possible rain out tonight. I called Wayland about 
> a half hour ago and they had cars lined up on the track trying to keep it 
> dry hoping the rain will pass.
>
> damon> Wait a minute, guys - as has been stated before, adding batteries
> damon> will NOT > necessarily give you more range! It will give you
> damon> somewhat better > performance, all else being equal. The
> damon> amp-hours remains the same for any > number of batteries
> damon> connected in series, and the additional weight will > negate most
> damon> of the benefit beyond a certain point.> > Batteries connected in
> damon> parallel will give more range, batteries connected in > series
> damon> will boost performance.> > Joseph H. Strubhar>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Invite your mail contacts to join your friends list with Windows Live 
> Spaces. It's easy!
> http://spaces.live.com/spacesapi.aspx?wx_action=create&wx_url=/friends.aspx&mkt=en-us
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
> 

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> On 19 Aug 2007 at 12:49, joe wrote:
> 
> > I grant you that it may give you more life from the batteries, but it
> > doesn't add mileage to your range, as much as the math would indicate. I know,
> ...


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