# Leaf: End of DIY EV conversions



## hardym (Apr 2, 2008)

Having been a Lead Acid EV and LiFePo4 EV owner, I gotta comment:

I took another test drive in a Leaf yesterday, preparing for delivery in late June. Quite impressive. nearly 100M range, highways speeds, etc. you've heard it before. The Leaf price for a brand new EV after CA and Obama rebates is about $22K. 

*I cant belive that anyone is still considering converting their own. *The prices I've seen for chinese LifePO4 that can get you on a highway for 50+ miles is $10-15K. The additional investment in parts alone (controller, motor, BMS, etc) is easily another $5K. Unless you start with a great car ($4K), you'll end up with a crappy looking EV. The chance that you actually get to drive your parts down the freeway is only about 50%, meaning that most EV conversions crash and burn due to conversions exhaustion. *And, the conversion price will likely be more than a new Leaf price.*

The Leaf is a complete EV game changer. I'm lucky to live in a target community (San Diego) that has an early adoptor program. Life will be good again.

Mark.


----------



## NZero (Jan 30, 2010)

I disagree, I think for many its the pay as you build and learn as you go that makes the conversion route appealing. And a conversion means you pick you car (whatever it looks like) pick your power plant and pick you range. No such options exist with the leaf.

And price wise, BMW are looking to compete with Nissan and you can get a converted Hyundai or Mitsi for about the same. Its the thrill of the build.


----------



## Coley (Jul 26, 2007)

I agree, that there will always be a DIY EV project movement.

We just love to tinker. I can buy an arc welder,but when I was first married back in 1963, I couldn't afford to buy a "NEW" one, so I built my own.

I still use it and the satisfaction of using it is great. 

Later when I could afford one, I bought one from the Gamble store. It didn't work as well or last as long.

DIY will be with us a very long time.


----------



## valerun (Nov 12, 2010)

well IMHO Leaf is one ugly-looking car. Now yes, that's just my opinion, but that's exactly the point - there will be a LOT of people with the same opinion. What are they going to do? And yes, a couple of other manufacturers will come up with their EVs but in the next 3-5 years, I don't see the choice exploding.

One other thing is that if you want performance conversion, you're out of luck. Unless you want to spend Tesla S kind of money ($50k after Obama). Conversions rule there. BMW electric won't come cheap either.


----------



## cruisin (Jun 3, 2009)

hardym said:


> Having been a Lead Acid EV and LiFePo4 EV owner, I gotta comment:
> 
> I took another test drive in a Leaf yesterday, preparing for delivery in late June. Quite impressive. nearly 100M range, highways speeds, etc. you've heard it before. The Leaf price for a brand new EV after CA and Obama rebates is about $22K.
> 
> ...


There are a couple of things you didnt take into account. The tax credits are for those who have earned income, not for retires or unemployed.

If you are in a position to be able to utilize tax credits, they are available for the conversion costs as well.

Almost puts us on a level playing field.


----------



## steven4601 (Nov 11, 2010)

Maybe, maybe not.

I was feeling a bit uneasy when I found out how afforable to Leaf is. 22-25k USD is a very good price. 

Sadly where I live , citizens wallets get screwed so hard, the price for the Nissan Leaf in US dollars is doubled!
The 32000 Euro is what the vehicle is sold for here. That is 45k USD? Due to import / tax duties. 

Get one Nissan for the price of two.


----------



## Mark C (Jun 25, 2010)

Only a few places have a state tax incentive to buy an EV. As it stands for the bulk of the US, there's only a Federal exemption, if you qualify. 

Still not a bad deal for the Leaf, all things considered. You can certainly build an EV cheaper, but to match what you get {including a factory warranty}, the Leaf will look very appealing to those who are uncertain of their ability to do a nice conversion.


----------



## Ziggythewiz (May 16, 2010)

steven4601 said:


> Maybe, maybe not.
> 
> I was feeling a bit uneasy when I found out how afforable to Leaf is. 22-25k USD is a very good price.
> 
> ...


You mean in the Netherlands you don't get the $7500 US tax rebate? Leaf that out and you're up to a $30,000 car. That's a pretty big jump from a just over $20K car to $30K. Once the big business subsidies run out, DIY will still be far cheaper for years to come.


----------



## hbthink (Dec 21, 2010)

Having driven a Leaf now for several weeks and a few thousand miles, IMHO they are wonderful cars, no doubt. Its really hard to compete with Nissan working on one in your garage. The Leaf makes the Tesla look like a DIY! again IMHO. Its very well conceived and built car at an excellent price point. They will probably sell and ship 50-60K cars this year making it the most important electric car in history and probably the beginning of a real electric car movement. Will it wipe out DIYs? No but it will bring the masses into EVs and thats good for everyone for all the reasons we all have built and driven our own DIY EVs in the past. Its a very exciting time for EVs and the first time in history that non-DIY folks have choices beyond oil. Thats big! On our street there's another Leaf down the way owned by a family that otherwise wouldn't own an EV. Now thats cool!

By the way I still like my 83 VW Rabbit w FB4001, Curtis controller and old lead acids (soon going lithium) since its a simple car, works well cost less than $10K and I can get inside work on it, play with it and change out things as I see fit. All things I would never do to the Leaf since its my employers car and wouldn't benefit from my tinkering, cept in a few areas


----------



## Nathan219 (May 18, 2010)

A lot of us get parts from salvaged vehicles I see the leaf as a source of a really good salvaged drive train. The car’s styling doesn’t appeal to me but the technology under its hood does. I know it is wrong to wish bad things to happen but I can’t wait till Leafs start hitting things.


----------



## hbthink (Dec 21, 2010)

I agree, love to get my hands on a leaf drivetrain! Also again IMHO the Nissan Drivetrain is far superior to that in the Tesla, although I will admit to not having much time with a Tesla. What I like is a non-proprietary plug (ie J1772 and Chademo in Leaf), programmed creep that feels like a ICE motor vehicle, very smooth regen which seems way more effective, much superior user interface, better feel, smooth acceleration 

the only con

not the same performance but much much lower price. I believe the Tesla Roadster was end of lifed, probably so as not to saturate a very small market. It helps that Nissan was able to spend big bucks in R&D that Tesla did not have.


----------



## NZero (Jan 30, 2010)

Nathan219 said:


> A lot of us get parts from salvaged vehicles I see the leaf as a source of a really good salvaged drive train. The car’s styling doesn’t appeal to me but the technology under its hood does. I know it is wrong to wish bad things to happen but I can’t wait till Leafs start hitting things.


I agree merely on styling alone, getting the parts is just an added bonus


----------



## dtbaker (Jan 5, 2008)

hardym said:


> Having been a Lead Acid EV and LiFePo4 EV owner, I gotta comment:...The Leaf price for a brand new EV after CA and Obama rebates is about $22K.


really? I heard it was a lot close to $32k, and only for the first 500k units or something like that. Plus the $2k charger in your garage, right?



hardym said:


> *I cant belive that anyone is still considering converting their own. *The prices I've seen for chinese LifePO4 that can get you on a highway for 50+ miles is $10-15K.


yeah.... about that. significantly less than $32k. But the Leaf does have the advantage of bank financing.




hardym said:


> The additional investment in parts alone (controller, motor, BMS, etc) is easily another $5K.


? the $10k-$15k you mention INCLUDES all that and batteries, right? as an EV builder you know that?




hardym said:


> *And, the conversion price will likely be more than a new Leaf price.*


I doubt that... by half.


----------



## DavidDymaxion (Dec 1, 2008)

You are making a good economic argument (I personally want something much faster than a Leaf, but that's another story.).

I'm curious how lifetime costs will compare. If your Leaf breaks out of warranty, is that $1000 per repair? You won't be able to shop for the cheapest part, you'll have to get the right Ni$$an part. 


hardym said:


> Having been a Lead Acid EV and LiFePo4 EV owner, I gotta comment:
> 
> I took another test drive in a Leaf yesterday, preparing for delivery in late June. Quite impressive. nearly 100M range, highways speeds, etc. you've heard it before. The Leaf price for a brand new EV after CA and Obama rebates is about $22K.
> 
> ...


----------



## Earthwindwater (May 2, 2011)

NZero said:


> I disagree, I think for many its the pay as you build and learn as you go that makes the conversion route appealing. And a conversion means you pick you car (whatever it looks like) pick your power plant and pick you range. No such options exist with the leaf.
> 
> And price wise, BMW are looking to compete with Nissan and you can get a converted Hyundai or Mitsi for about the same. Its the thrill of the build.


Well put! I agree, though I am sure not everyone loves the excitement of building or converting your own car. I have learned so much from my conversion and would LOVE to build an EV truck or the like.


----------



## rochesterricer (Jan 5, 2011)

Nathan219 said:


> A lot of us get parts from salvaged vehicles I see the leaf as a source of a really good salvaged drive train. The car’s styling doesn’t appeal to me but the technology under its hood does. I know it is wrong to wish bad things to happen but I can’t wait till Leafs start hitting things.


That was going to be my point. As cars like the Leaf become more common, they will get in accidents and start showing up in junk yards.


----------



## Carbonfree (May 25, 2011)

I think the DIY conversion projects will likely shink to an even smaller niche. If your goal is merely to drive an electric car, there is no need to go through the grief of converting an old gas car to EV. It doesn't make financial sense and it is not safe for a family or any sort of long term user (3-10 years). 

There will always be the hobbyist types that just want to do their own projects. That will probably continue. But it will be a very minor niche.

I would say that the overall DIY market will shrink now that the Leaf and other EVs are coming out. The people that just want to go EV are going to leave the DIY market. The remaining DIY market will be more limited.

Over time, I suspect the remaining DIY market to shift into modifying EVs. In five years when the Leaf or other EVs are used and on a 2nd or 3rd owner, people will want to start modifying those EVs. Starting with a car, that was designed to be an EV, will make more sense. 

When that happens, I suspect some of the real auto parts suppliers will start carrying EV related parts. Then we won't have to deal with these unreliable suppliers in the DIY market now.


----------



## valerun (Nov 12, 2010)

Carbonfree said:


> I think the DIY conversion projects will likely shink to an even smaller niche. If your goal is merely to drive an electric car, there is no need to go through the grief of converting an old gas car to EV. It doesn't make financial sense and it is not safe for a family or any sort of long term user (3-10 years).
> 
> There will always be the hobbyist types that just want to do their own projects. That will probably continue. But it will be a very minor niche.
> 
> ...


Disagree. DIY will grow but it will evolve. 

There will be three effects in play:

1. Higher availability of ready-made EVs. This has negative effect on DIY as you mentioned

2. Enormous amount of marketing spend by the big OEMs promoting their EVs will make a LOT MORE people want EVs. Now, a lot of those new people will not be able to afford / want to buy a brand new car. This is going to be a significant positive effect on DIY

3. Finally, moving EVs to mass will energize the conversion industry itself and we will finally break away from the situation when you need a PhD in EE to convert your car. I see bolt-on kits for most common car models being produced by these companies and installed by your regular mechanic shop. This will have a strong positive effect on DIY.

These same companies will then add 'EV performance tuning' products & services targeting new EVs. Thus begining the EV aftermarket industry that you hinted at. Gasoline car aftermarket today is ~$66 BILLION in the US alone. If we do have 1M EVs on the roads by 2015 as Obama wanted (0.4% of the total US fleet), it is reasonable to assume similar relative aftermarket at ~ a quarter billion $. 

V


----------



## Carbonfree (May 25, 2011)

I think our outlook is very similar on what is likely to happen. However I don't see much potential for a bolt-on kit to change a gas car to EV. 
It is simply not that easy and every car becomes a custom conversion job. There are simply way too many different types of used cars. Different year models, etc. The liability issues would be massive. 

I am not sure a business model exists that would make it worthwhile. I am sure many will try. Many have tried already. Many have already failed. You see some of these conversion shops popping up and trying to also sell kits. Then they disappear when they run out of money.


----------



## valerun (Nov 12, 2010)

Carbonfree said:


> I think our outlook is very similar on what is likely to happen. However I don't see much potential for a bolt-on kit to change a gas car to EV.
> It is simply not that easy and every car becomes a custom conversion job. There are simply way too many different types of used cars. Different year models, etc. The liability issues would be massive.
> 
> I am not sure a business model exists that would make it worthwhile. I am sure many will try. Many have tried already. Many have already failed. You see some of these conversion shops popping up and trying to also sell kits. Then they disappear when they run out of money.


;-) Not quite. Look at the data before claiming that every conversion is a custom affair. The market is not THAT fragmented...

Toyota Camry installed base for just XV30 (2001–2006) model (and hence same mounts / couplers / etc can be used) is estimated at 2-3 million cars in the US alone. BMW E46 (1998-2006) is estimated to be ~1-1.5 million cars in the US alone. Hardly small numbers. If you believe in 0.4% penetration of new EVs by 2015, why wouldn't you believe in similar potential for these hassle-free conversions (which would be ~4-6,000 vehicles for BMW E46 3 series - again, hardly small). The problem with all the conversion shops is that they are taking any random job that is thrown their way. As a result, they don't have a chance to reach any kind of scale and fail due to underestimation of effort required for custom conversions.


----------



## Carbonfree (May 25, 2011)

valerun said:


> The problem with all the conversion shops is that they are taking any random job that is thrown their way. As a result, they don't have a chance to reach any kind of scale and fail due to underestimation of effort required for custom conversions.


The shops that would do this are typically mechanics/repair shops. Or perhaps autobody shops would also have the skills and tools to do it. The issue I see is that the nature of this business is "small". Nobody will be able to scale up to make this a profitable business. By it's nature, it will always be small because it requires the customer to bring the used vehicle to the company that does the kit conversion

I don't see an assembly line happening where scale could be applied to EV kit conversions. It requires that the customer purchase the used vehicle, then bring it to the shop that will do the conversion. So I doubt anyone will dedicate a business to it. It would be a side business even for the auto repair shop. 

Maybe it doesn't make sense to me because I am not the type of customer that is the target market. I am the type that is more likely to buy a real EV from a major manufacturer now that they are here. I would rather have the warranty and the support. There is also likely to be an aftermarket to sell the used vehicle.

It just doesn't make financial sense to do the kit with a used vehicle. You are likely spending just as much or more, have a lesser vehcile in terms of safety and range, and you won't have much resale once you are done. 

These are just my concerns and why I won't be considering a DIY now that there are production EV options available.


----------



## gojo (Feb 1, 2011)

The economy may play a big factor. Many want to deny this, but the basic fundamentals suggest we are presently moving in the direction of a 3rd world economy. 
The average person may not be able to afford a new EV, but as gas prices continue rise, they won’t be able to afford to drive an ICE , and the option of affordable conversion kits would be the answer.
Kits aimed at popular models that are easy to convert would be more affordable if they are produced in volume. Us electric car veterans would be very popular, and all the women would be throwing themselves at us in hopes of getting some help with their conversions. 
The choice would not be between an ICE and an EV, but a choice between a conversion or walking.


----------



## Carbonfree (May 25, 2011)

gojo said:


> The average person may not be able to afford a new EV, but as gas prices continue rise, they won’t be able to afford to drive an ICE , and the option of affordable conversion kits would be the answer. Kits aimed at popular models that are easy to convert would be more affordable if they are produced in volume.


I just don't see the volume happening. I think we are more likely to see used EVs (like the Nissan Leaf) in a few years being the way to go. A new battery pack and ready for another 100,000 miles.

The plug-in Prius that goes commercial next year will have a 13 miles one way EV range. Recharge at work, then drive home another 13 miles on EV. Most of your miles each day would be pure EV. Within a few years after that they will be available used in significant volume. Get an extended warranty and you are good to go.

I think I read that the average person drives less than 30 miles per day. With recharging in parking lots, a 13 mile range will likely be sufficient for huge numbers of people. 

I plan on buying a scooter that gets 100 mpg if gas get really expensive. Those will meet the needs of most people, most of the time.

Electric bicycles can reach speeds of 30+ mph and have ranges of 20+ miles. The cost is very affordable for just about anyone.
Detach your battery and recharge it inside on a normal 110v outlet while you work.



gojo said:


> The choice would not be between an ICE and an EV, but a choice between a conversion or walking.


I don't really see that as being a choice people have to make anytime soon. There are numerous ways to reduce gasoline consumption with no loss in quality of life. Carpooling, buying a used car that gets high MPG, get a ICE scooter, ride a bike, or an electric bike and many more.

A conversion is just not even comparable in terms of reliability. There are so many rough conversions that I just don't see it ever getting away from the hobbyist market. There are too many other easier options out there. I realize this is the wrong website to make this debate point. But when I test drove the Leaf, I realized that the DIY EV conversions were not going to be remotely comparable. And DIY conversions are not cheap, they cost a huge amount with very little resale value. Volume is not going to change that.


----------



## Davetheliftie (Mar 20, 2011)

steven4601 said:


> Maybe, maybe not.
> 
> I was feeling a bit uneasy when I found out how afforable to Leaf is. 22-25k USD is a very good price.
> 
> ...



Much the same pricing structure in Australia


----------



## bruceme (Dec 10, 2008)

hardym said:


> The Leaf is a complete EV game changer..


I completely agree, the next car I get will be a used EV Leaf or Volt in 5 years. And I probably won't go back to DIY except to tinker/experiment on my own.


----------



## Ravishankar (Jan 26, 2009)

DIY is required where there are no good EV's offered on the market, like here..!


----------



## Robert Electricman (Aug 21, 2010)

Carbonfree said:


> I don't see an assembly line happening where scale could be applied to EV kit conversions.


Coming from the Experimental Aircraft Market - and watching the EAA Movement in that field and certain designers and their competitors - the Experimental Aircraft Business today would not be much different if it were not for one man - one business - the Christian Eagle Airshow Biplane Kit! 

Each kit came with parts blister packed stacked in a box with separators like a wine case of a sorts, and the manual for that set of parts build, and the whole thing - with a razor blade masking taped to the package inside - to cut out the parts! that raised the character of the business of the day from partially bent metal and a few off the shelf parts, to completed, packaged kits!

In the EV Conversion game - the big difficulty is the 'Jack of All Trades' style of shop, instead of picking 1, 2, or at most 3 vehicles and working them alone, so that - in shorter time - you can get a systematized approach to what is required, what is next, and what is needed, and start to Prefabricate specific components like Motor Mount Brackets - ahead of the next conversion job! 

I had a couple friends over helping me this past Sunday - and the discussion lead to - is there a business in Conversions! My thoughts are - there is a business in systematizing Conversions!

We already have some vendors selling motors, and some big on adapter plates for mating to transmissions. So what if a small shop said - OK - New Motor + New Adapter Plate + New Transmission = Quicker RE & RE of this aspect? Would that not mean The Converter needs not to worry about mating the Clutch, balancing the Flywheel, and all the interesting and tricky stuff, because it was already in a package?!

Next - Whether using Prismatic or Cylindrical LiFePO4 Cells, start a separate business that is building Battery Packs for Specified Car Gas Tank Replacements - so you take out the old gas tank - remove the carpet and ad a few reinforcing plates and pickup points, and then hang the new battery pack! No Chopping and hacking up of the already designed body, just a few hard points and pickups added!

So if you could buy a ready to install battery pack as a package, Wiring Harness, Motor-Transmission package, and the respective controller, Throttle set, the conversion time could come down from a week or two, to a day or two, and after a while down to under 12 hours!

In the Kit Plane Business - we don't go out and design a new aircraft radio for each kit built - or a new Nav radio, we just buy and install! In the EV conversion business - there is very little support for such a pathway, so we still have people designing instruments by hand - one off, etc.!

Let's suggest - the whole conversion industry - each and every vendor - formed a team - and said - OK - for 2012 - we will each and every one of us work on perfecting converting a 'XXSX' (? Ford Ranger, Chevy S10, or what ever) and share skills, learning, and techniques, essentially forming a nation wide 'cottage industry' no so unlike what was done in Britain to deal with aircraft factories getting bombed out! In one year - we could have incredible progress on a single or select few models, so by 2013 - a couple new choices could be added, and in 5 years we could have experts on 10 - 15 models! All across the country!

Side Businesses of new components like custom fit, Reverse Engineered (Professionally so) CAD Designed components for precise fits with paper thin tolerances, would be able to operate better with this model, rather than trying to dance the Tango one time, the Waltz the next, and the shuffle next, as is going on today!

I took Ballroom dancing lessons 3 different times, and on the first two they tried to teach a little bit of everything - what a mess! on the third try - I had single partner - and in two - 2 hour sessions - we had a Dance routine down in one style of dance and could have nailed a competition quite well! In just 4 hours of training!! Same with EV Conversions - Pick one - get good at it first, then add another!!

OK - that's a long story - but bottom line: Focus = Progress!

Want to see some EV Conversions Versus New OEM's almost side by side? Come this weekend to *EV Fest 2011* in Toronto, Ontario, at the Brick Works at 550 Bayview Avenue on Sunday, October 23rd! Just $5! From 10 AM - 5 PM


----------



## Robert Electricman (Aug 21, 2010)

And - my own thoughts for myself - based on my 'Electricfly' - is to work on Battery Packs that fit My gas tank space - step by step - using better batteries, until the pack can be built for a variety of performances but all fit the same space, volume and package! 

If I can do that for my car - then I can do the same for another Firefly (Geo Metro/Suzuki Swift), and if I can get that figured out for a few Geo's then I can try the same idea for another car! EV Album Shows quite a few Geo candidates for testing my idea on! So - If I can make a battery pack case that could use small AGM, Prismatic LiFePO4, or Cylindrical LiFEPO4, or LiPo, and offer differing performances, but always mounted the same, connected the same, offered the same voltage (but different energy or power capabilities) it would help to systematize the battery pack for that one car!


----------



## Robert Electricman (Aug 21, 2010)

Carbonfree said:


> I don't really see that as being a choice people have to make anytime soon. There are numerous ways to reduce gasoline consumption with no loss in quality of life. Carpooling, buying a used car that gets high MPG, get a ICE scooter, ride a bike, or an electric bike and many more.


I have seen Gas Powered Scooters, and I have Seen Electric Scooters - even high powered ones like the ZEV7100, but if the Electric Scooter is using a Hub Motor - why can't same hub motor be on the front - added to a Gas-powered Scooter - making it a choice between gas to go, or electricity to be clean!


----------



## Nic (Oct 27, 2011)

Just because there is an affordable EV out there doesn't mean it will be the end of DIY EV. That would be like saying since an affordable muscle car can be bought from a dealer that there is no reason to build a classic muscle car. It's more than just dollars and function.

Oh, and yeah, the Leaf is an ugly car, as someone else mentioned.


----------



## Nic (Oct 27, 2011)

I saw a leaf this weekend. Still not my cup of tea, but it was definitely more attractive in person.


----------



## hashyo (Nov 3, 2011)

i think we have to wait few more years for EV prices to compete with conventional cars and then we'll probably see the end of DIY as a need. DIY will still be a hobby 
Leaf may be affordable, but not where i live, not for me. Not yet, i hope 
And yes, it's kinda ugly, but Chevy Volt seems ok to me


----------



## evblazer (Nov 17, 2011)

When the hybrids first came out it was the death of a DIY EV for some people. The president of my former local chapter of the EAA who had a few EV's and then bought a prius told us all at a meeting if the Prius was a few years earlier he'd never have an EV. My wife and I had a prius and that isn't how we felt but everyones situation is different.

There were dozens of project cars in my area that were abandoned and sold on the cheap as well as completed DIY and people went to the prius or insight.

Now we have a "readily" available electric car with a long range compared to most DIY plus a plug in hybrid that can be run on batteries probably for a longer range than many DIY. It'll knock down people who only had a DIY or maybe a converted by a local company EV to sell them and pickup a Volt or Leaf. Might be a good time to pickup a well done conversion or project car on the cheap?


----------



## newenergy (Oct 20, 2010)

I'm a solar installer and have been hearing clients talking about Leafs for a while now. Starting to seem them in the garages now - the last two jobs in a row.

I'm still doing my conversions.


----------



## CrazyAl (May 9, 2011)

Hi,

Nissan have not produced enough Leafs to satisfy the worlds wide demand for Electric Cars.

In many parts of the world, the modified car scene is a sizable niche. If the car makers make more Electric Cars, then we might see a new niche of modified and hotted up Electric Cars. We may see power upgrades, motor upgrades, battery pack upgrades.

Kind Regards
CrazyAl


----------



## dtbaker (Jan 5, 2008)

hardym said:


> *I cant belive that anyone is still considering converting their own. *The prices I've seen for chinese LifePO4 that can get you on a highway for 50+ miles is $10-15K.



wellllll.... I have perfectly good Swift-based EV with 50 mile range for $11k ($5k in batteries) and 150 hours of labor.... seems like there is still a DIY market compared to closer to $40k (includin home charger statin) as soon as the first-500k units rebate is over.

I think there will be a 'classic and hotrod' DIY market well afte rthere is a DIY suB-$20K vehicle available.... but I hope that waits till people have installed more PV/wind power generation!


----------



## PhantomPholly (Aug 20, 2008)

dtbaker said:


> wellllll.... I have perfectly good Swift-based EV with 50 mile range for $11k ($5k in batteries) and 150 hours of labor.... seems like there is still a DIY market compared to closer to $40k (includin home charger statin) as soon as the first-500k units rebate is over.
> 
> I think there will be a 'classic and hotrod' DIY market well afte rthere is a DIY suB-$20K vehicle available.... but I hope that waits till people have installed more PV/wind power generation!


I agree - as battery and controller prices come down, rebuilds will continue to be attractive to many people (especially us tinkerers).

Too, some cars simply aren't available as an EV. If you want "that car," it will be the only way to have it for some time to come.


----------



## hbthink (Dec 21, 2010)

My 83 VW Rabbit Cabriolet has two major advantages over the Leaf

1. Topless

2. Has a real spare tire, the Leaf has nothing for $35K you call AAA or get stuck!

and obviously

3. much less $$$ to operate and insure.

Steve


----------



## favguy (May 2, 2008)

I finally got to look over a leaf and test drive it at the weekend. Initial thoughts were it's pretty impressive. I don't personally like the look of it much, or the light coloured interior, or the lack of sunroof option, but it drove superbly and the engineering is undoubtedly excellent.

I think it's too expensive at present to threaten the DIY scene, but if prices fall and VW etc. bring out competitors that might look a little more palatable, I think we'll start to see falling away of self build EV's. 

I noticed, ex demonstator Leafs can be bought in the UK now for less than £20,000 with around 3,000 miles on them, and i reckon you'd struggle to match the Leaf specs. on a self build using new parts for much less than that, not even allowing for time input.

What really got me thinking is what a nice comprehensive "kit" a wrecked Leaf would make. Before too long one or two are bound to make it through to the salvage auctions!! If they compare to ICE salvage, £4,000 should get a nice one with a cosmetically well wrecked body shell!!


----------



## dtbaker (Jan 5, 2008)

favguy said:


> What really got me thinking is what a nice comprehensive "kit" a wrecked Leaf would make. Before too long one or two are bound to make it through to the salvage auctions!! If they compare to ICE salvage, £4,000 should get a nice one with a cosmetically well wrecked body shell!!



unless batteries short from impact and the whole thing bursts into flames.  just kidding.


----------



## yosemitesamiam (Feb 7, 2012)

Leaf doesn't have 8 seats


----------



## Jin Kazama (Mar 30, 2012)

If you were worried the leaf was going to be the end of DIY EV conversions, what about the Renault zoe (Nissan is part of Renault).

It's 15000 EUR in most of Europe (20000 - 5000 EUR bonus for anyone), it has a 130 miles range (real range will be around 100 miles, which is better than the 60-70 miles of the leaf) a 135km/h top speed (84mph) and is compatible with quick drop and 3 phases fast charging (30min for 80%, 1h for 100% with extremely cheap and simple plug(no electronics))

The catch?: The 24KWh battery is leased (starting at 80 EUR/month).

I'm getting one in September, at current Lithium battery prices, the leasing is pretty cheap but as batteries prices decrease I think a DIY battery will do wonders (lower price and/or increased capacity)

If I look in the french EV market, there is quite a few used 10 years old EV for sale without batteries (such as the Peugot 106 Electrique, Citroen Saxo EV, Renault Kangoo EV...) - the battery were leased back then (for ~120-150 EUR/month) and the range was pretty bad (~50 miles) - for a DIYer, such a car is great as the only thing you have to worry about is the battery, everything else work. Those car were not using lithium batteries at the time so I'm pretty sure you could get a 70-90miles range just upgrading to li-x!

I think those "new" cars will enable DIYer to do wonders (especially with new EV specific parts being available); I don't think this is the end but more like a new beginning


----------



## Bicka (Apr 13, 2012)

Davetheliftie said:


> Much the same pricing structure in Australia


Leaf
Nissan LEAF will hit Australian showrooms in June 2012 with a manufacturer’s recommended price of $51,500.

Volt
Other launch markets provide a good directional guide to what [the Holden Volt] will cost in Australia, though it’s expected that the local pricing will be closer to the circa-$58,000 of the Opel version in Europe (called Ampera) rather than the Chevrolet-badged Volt sold in the US for about $40,000

i-MiEV
Sales for fleet customers began in Australia in August 2010 under leasing agreement at a price of A$1,740 a month for 36 months, for a cumulative total of A$62,640 after which the car has to be returned to the dealer

Price Gouging 
http://afr.com/p/technology/apple_co_founder_slams_price_gouging_AGNfTQl88InuNYGBw8Hf7N


Sucks how we get unrealistically Screwed Over when it comes to the price of stuff in Australia. Our Dollar is worth more than the USD too! 

Enough rant, lol. But on topic. I agree that DIY will always be an area of interest for enthusiasts. Off the Shelf just allows people who like the concept but are not able to DIY (lack of skill/Patience/Knowledge/Time etc.) to have a tried and true, warranty backed mass produced EV.

I saw all power to them, mass production generally drives down costs and advances technology so I think it will be a good thing for batteries and other components going forward.

Also, spare parts will probably become available to the DIY EV community.


----------



## CrazyAl (May 9, 2011)

Someone I know in Canberra (Australia) rang the Mitsubishi dealer and asked why the i-MiEV was $22k+ (I can't remember the exact price difference, but for argument's sake, I'll use $22k+) more in Australia than in USA. Does postage cost $22k+? 

It's probably called the "Australia tax", which is not even levied by any government in Australia that causes these stupid price gouges.
There was a senate inquiry a few weeks ago about this in relation to downloadable software and the price hikes we have to pay just for living in Australia. 

In relation to DIY EV conversions, I believe it will grow stronger into the future. If more commercially produced EVs come to the market, then when those cars get written off, we can get parts out of them 
If more commercially produced EVs don't come to market, then we will get parts from our usual sources.

Also, motorsport will increase demand for DIY EVs.
Many in motorsport are interested in getting into EV motorsport as they believe that for motorsport to be sustainable, we have to go electric. I've had team owners and racers talk to me about going electric and wanting to do it.

Also, the hot rod, street rod and modified car scene will fuel DIY EVs.

At Summernats earlier this year, I had a lot of interest from people when I displayed my Electric Go Kart. Many were interested in building Electric Muscle cars and dragsters. Someone even did a write up on performance forum about my go kart after seeing it at Summernats.


----------



## njloof (Nov 21, 2011)

Until I can buy a production convertible EV, I'll be working on my Miata conversion


----------



## albo2 (Oct 4, 2011)

Man you can't buy a production EV in NZ for under 60k that's right 3 times what you can buy one for in the states, we really get screwed our dollar is less we get paid less our govt just wants to dig for coal and oil, no incentives here in good old clean green NZ.


----------



## dragonsgate (May 19, 2012)

DIY electric cars are another form of Hot Rodding. Men that would have been called geeks if the word had been coined at the time tinkered with electric cars in the 1800’s and got a pretty good foothold and then men started tinkering with gas engines and finally beat out the electric by 1915. During that time car companies emerged some of them started by tinkerers themselves and yet other men kept tearing down and rebuilding cars with parts from the car companies and racing them. (There are guys on this forum just waiting for the time they can snag a used or wrecked leaf for the parts) Many of the designs of tinkerers were either bought or stolen by car companies in the first place. After WWII guys started converging on the Bonneville Salt Flats to see what their jalopies would do. They called those jalopies Hot Rods. In the 60’s and 70’s Detroit built muscle cars many of them inspired by what was going on in private garages. (Many of the garage owners bought Detroit iron so it will be no different if a DIY’er buys a new Leaf) Believe it or not while all this was going on there were still a few Geeks messing with electric cars. With coming of the gas crunches DIY electrics started being noticed. They were a novelty to the largest part of the public but the electric cars were being noticed by car companies. Now we are in the thick of it and car companies are testing the market. I think Do It Yourself electric car (Hot Rodders) have played a key part in the movement as in years past. I also think that as new production EV’s hit the market their will still be electric Hot rods and geeks that build them. If the economy doesn’t completely go down the toilet there will also be car companies that buy or steal the ideas of those builders and sell them to the rest of the world as a factory built electric cars.


----------



## CrazyAl (May 9, 2011)

albo2 said:


> Man you can't buy a production EV in NZ for under 60k that's right 3 times what you can buy one for in the states, we really get screwed our dollar is less we get paid less our govt just wants to dig for coal and oil, no incentives here in good old clean green NZ.


We get screwed in Australia as well. We have what is called the "Australia tax" - a tax not even levied by governments, but rather some big corporations. Even downloadable software attracts a higher price if you live in Australia, despite the product being the same as the product delivered to US & Canadian residents. I think there was a senate inquiry about this price disparity of downloadable software in Australia.

I believe this "Australia tax" will see its days numbered as a lot of Australians have become aware of this. Even the Government and politicians don't like it.

Also, many astute people have even held off buying luxury cars. They see how much cheaper it is in the US and are now waiting for prices in Australia to adjust. Many are expecting dramatic price drops in the near future. 

Co-incidentally, many luxury car prices have seen price drops of over 25% in the last quarter of 2011 and they are still dropping. Some dealers have gone broke.


----------



## Jason Lattimer (Dec 27, 2008)

A little late to the conversation, but as may have already been stated, production EVs will no more end DIYs than new Camaros ended the restoration of classic Camaros.


----------

