# David85's saturn SL1 conversion



## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

I have finally started the real part of the conversion.

The engine and transmission are out, and I did some minor measurements under the hood to see how the 200Ah lithium cells would fit. Still have to pull the fuel tank, lines and exhaust system. A cold snap is on the way, so the warm weather is over. Shop is not heated.....

The amount of room behind the front bumper is very encouraging. I figure I can fit at least 24 of the cells under the hood. I will know more once the motor and drive are installed, but at the very least I already have room for 24 of the 48 cells. There is also lots of space behind the bumper corners, not sure what I can install there...maybe the vacuum pump and a few inches of sound insulation on top.

The aluminum sheet metal for the battery boxes is on its way. Sorry, no updates on the brushless motor yet. But I am considering a warP 9" if that proves to be too hard to get in a timely manner. I could always upgrade later and sell the brushed system.

The battery shown here is my sample and the cells are the same model as what the 144V battery will use. There is room for a string of 12 cells right where the radiator used to be, and another 12 cell string against the firewall. The rest should fit below the trunk floor in a custom drop box, so cargo room will be the same after the conversion. In theory, there is also more room at the fuel tank location, but considering how hard it is to get to, I might just leave that empty for now since I already have all the room I need. The only catch is I won't have a place for the spare tire anymore, but it may even fit under the hood. Will have to see.


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## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

very cool I didn't know you were doing lithiums,, wished i had them in my budget but NO WAY,, if you are considering the Warp 9 be sure to look closely at the length of the motor they are pretty long, I have the Warp 9 impulse which is shorter,, I will show you pics of it in the bay and then you will know for sure about the length. I was surprised at how close it was in the Storm, a Warp 9 never would have fit. You know I will be following this!!

Brian


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

I concluded that there was 20" of space from the transmission mating face to the structural beam on the opposite side of the engine bay. The engine block is 18" if I remember right. Isn't the warP 16" and change? What sort of space did you find in your car?

Yep I'm using a 200Ah 144V LiFePO4 battery direct from mainland china. I'm aiming for 100 miles of real world range, but with a brushless motor, more is likely (less loss, and regen). The battery is rated at 1C constant and 5C peak rated, so it should perform well. Not quite a tesla roadster, but might out run a stock saturn even with the humble warP.


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## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

david85 said:


> I concluded that there was 20" of space from the transmission mating face to the structural beam on the opposite side of the engine bay. The engine block is 18" if I remember right. Isn't the warP 16" and change? What sort of space did you find in your car?.



never took any measurements on the Saturn I know I have plenty of room for the Impulse motor.


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## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

looks like the old engine from the back of the block to the very front bolt on the pulley is about 19 inches,, also mt motor adaptor is 1- 1/2" thick as well so that needs to be factored in. It looks like the Warp 9 is about 3 " longer than the Impulse,, that would not have fit in the storm but I should have this one mounted by Thursday and we can look at the pics to see if the room is there.


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

Work on the rear battery box has started. The hole in the floor is cut, and I hope to start work on the actual aluminum battery box tomorrow. My Dad is nearly finished with a metal break he made for the shop press, and I just wrapped up the cad drawing this evening. 

The rear beam for the suspension is in the way, so I will not be able to fit 26 cells directly under the trunk, but I can use the space left by the fuel tank to make up for that. This would make for a nice low center of gravity as well as preserving all the interior space. There might be room for the charger in the space over the rear beam but I will have to see once that arrives.

The wood blocks seen under the car are mock ups for the battery cells.


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## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

what was the width of the hole in the trunk? Also from the back of the hole to the frame there,, what is that distance? Do you know?


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

No problem. I've got the notes right in front of me.

The width of the hole is exactly 30" and from the rear of the hole to the beam is 21", with the overall length of the hole being 26.5". Depth is about about 8.5" without hanging below the rear bumper or pushing up past the trunk floor. My battery will be about 9" tall, so the battery will hang down slightly to keep the foor flat.

I have no idea if your saturn will be the same being a coupe though.


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## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

ya that sounds about the same, I am attacking the front first to see how many I need to put in the back, hoping 5 only in the rear and I think 7 will go up front,,,, shoot to get 5 batteries side by side I need 34 inches,,, is there 34" between the frame or did you cut flush right to it? As well adding 320 pounds to the rear will certainly lower the car probably too much bit we'll see.


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

I'm not sure if the weight will be too much on mine but I will have to see as well. I think you are talking about your car regarding the 320 lbs, but actually, thats about what I expect my car to end up with on the rear. My car is rated for over 3000lbs GVW so it would in theory still be within the limit, but harder springs might be needed anyway.

I cut the floor out flush with the outer edge of the wielded flange of the chassie, so if I really wanted, maybe another 1.5" of side clearance could be scrounged up, but that would affect the structure more than I want. I am a little spoiled because my batteries will fit in any orientation so I have a lot of flexibility to use up every last inch of space if I have to.


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## Bowser330 (Jun 15, 2008)

any updates on your brushless motor?


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

Bowser330 said:


> any updates on your brushless motor?


Nope, I still have to have a formal quote before I send a deposite. Louie tells me he is assembling several motors at the moment, so I am going to patient for now. As I mentioned before, I can always fall back on a warp 9" if this doesn't work out.


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

The rear battery box is nearly done. It gonna be a real beauty and fits perfectly. Pix will be posted when its finished (should be tomorrow).


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

As promised. Pictures of the rear battery box. There will be room for the 18 of 48 cells and possibly the charger ( I'm still not sure how big the charger will be though). Still have some figuring out to do, but more could go where the fuel tank was and the rest in the engine bay. The lid for the front smaller compartment still has to me made, but the box is basically done.

It drops in like a glove and is very light but strong. It will be fastened with a series of U nuts and 1/4" bolts all the way around the perimeter flange of the box so it will become a structural component of the car. It will also be sealed to the floor semi-perminant with a high performance automotive urethane adhesive sealer. Once the trunk mat goes back in, you will never know anything is under there

It hangs below the bumper edge be about 1" so even that is hard to spot.


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## Qer (May 7, 2008)

david85 said:


> As promised. Pictures of the rear battery box.


Looking great! What material have you done it in? Ordinary steel or stainless?


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

Qer said:


> Looking great! What material have you done it in? Ordinary steel or stainless?


Aluminum, hence the low weight.


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## aktill (Jun 18, 2008)

Hi David,

Looking very good! Did you intentionally decide not to make allowances for insulation, or do your batteries not need it? I've found small lithium polymer packs suffer in cooler temps, but don't know about these bigger batts. I hope to have enough funds to use them myself, so I'll be following your build closely.

Also, simple question, but what did you use to cut the trunk floor out? I'm looking to upsize my tools before continuing on my own conversion in the spring. I Went through three fibreglass cutoff wheels on a Dremel tool cutting my exhaust system in half in the fall... was too stubborn to stop working and go buy a proper tool  Want to remedy that now.


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

I used a 5" angle grinder with a steel cut off wheel to make the rough cut, then trimmed the rough edges with tin snips. The front of the hole had rounded corners, so that was also a place for snips. I also have a plasma cutter, but didn't feel like dragging it out, and it turns out I didn't have to. A dremel is good for arts and crafts, but for cutting into a car body, you need an angle grinder. Even a 4.5" will do for most situations. (just make sure those sparks can't reach any glass).

There is some room for insulation in the battery box, however I may not put any in. The specs for the battery state that they will discharge well down to about -20C, so for my climate I am more concerned about heat in the summer since ideal operating temp is 20C. And again, it comes back to my choice of using aluminum for the battery box, since aluminum has excellent heat transfer properties.

Even in cold weather, the batteries will generate their own heat once under load for a little while (I observed that with my sample testing), so an electric blanket under them may be all thats needed to get them started in the morning if the cold becomes a problem or if they are allowed to cool off before recharging (ideally then are no colder than 0C for recharging).


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## RKM (Jun 9, 2008)

david85 said:


> As promised. Pictures of the rear battery box. There will be room for the 18 of 48 cells and possibly the charger ( I'm still not sure how big the charger will be though). Still have some figuring out to do, but more could go where the fuel tank was and the rest in the engine bay. The lid for the front smaller compartment still has to me made, but the box is basically done.
> 
> It drops in like a glove and is very light but strong. It will be fastened with a series of U nuts and 1/4" bolts all the way around the perimeter flange of the box so it will become a structural component of the car. It will also be sealed to the floor semi-perminant with a high performance automotive urethane adhesive sealer. Once the trunk mat goes back in, you will never know anything is under there
> 
> It hangs below the bumper edge be about 1" so even that is hard to spot.


Very impressive David. I plan on Al batt boxes too. A few questions... What gauge did you use? What is the reinforcing rib on the lid of the box? What is the small forward compartment for? Can you provide the name of the adhesive you will be using? Will you be securing the cells to the box? Is the divider wall within the box for structural purposes?

Do LFP batts need any venting or cooling for summer? I intend to insulate and have heated boxes (cold in Manitoba). 

Thanks.

Rob


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

Hi Rob,

Yes it is colder in manitoba, I bet it rather bitter at this very moment.

I used 1/16" sheet.

Yes the center rib is structural, but also to help secure and line up the cells. 

Yes, the cells will have to be strapped to the box. That part hasn't been made yet.

The sealer will be ProForm PF224 Urethane sealer, an automotive windshield adhesive will also work well. Any real autoparts store will carry something like that (i.e. other than crappy tire)

The reinforcing on the box lid was done with a roller machine, so nothing was wielded on. It did warp it a little, but it doesn't matter because it will be bolted down and forced into the correct shape.

I don't know if ventilation is required. The unit cells have a vent port on the top center of them, but they arent supposed to "gas up" unless something is wrong. Flooded Lead acid batteries have a water based electrolyte, so production of hydrogen and oxy is a fact of life with them even when all is well. One of many reasons why they loose efficiency under higher load.

There will be enough room for forced ventelation if I decided to add that later. For now, i am not convinced that its required though.

The front part of the box is not large enough to fit any batteries, so I'm hoping the charger will fit in there. If not, it will work as a junction box to tie the two rear battery banks together and then send power to the front of the car. I'm sure I'll find a use for that space.

I'm thinking the battieries might require cooling in the hotter summer months, so thats why I won't put any insulation from the start and allow the aluminum box to transfer the heat out unimpeded by insulation.


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## joshg678 (Jan 25, 2009)

David,
Very nice work on the battery box, looking very good.
One thing my father always has mention to me in one of his ramblings about car makers, is have you considered using solar panels to help recharge the batteries while you sit in traffic or while your car sits while your at work?
I don't know a lot about electrical stuff, but i wouldn't know if there could be enough energy generated by solar energy to work with the electrical system on the car. Thoughts?


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

joshg678 said:


> David,
> Very nice work on the battery box, looking very good.
> One thing my father always has mention to me in one of his ramblings about car makers, is have you considered using solar panels to help recharge the batteries while you sit in traffic or while your car sits while your at work?
> I don't know a lot about electrical stuff, but i wouldn't know if there could be enough energy generated by solar energy to work with the electrical system on the car. Thoughts?


Hey, welcome to the forum. Glad you got the account working.

Mounting solar panels has been done before, but it requires a long time to get the car fully charged, to the order of a week for one drive usually. Newer "high tech" EVs like the fisker karma and aptera use form fitted solar panels on the roof mainly to regulate the interior temperature while the car is parked but it will also maintain the battery so in theory it will add a slight improvement in range.

I have heard of a guy in arizona (LOTS of sun there) that had a chevy S10 truck converted to electric with a 7' bed cover made of solar cells. His drive to work was less than 15 miles so he was able to get close to zero plug in time by parking it in the sun.

The ultimate solution is to fit a solar collector on your home as big as will fit (or can afford) and use that to offset the cost of recharging at night. The form fitted cells are also more expensive than the larger bulky flat panels that are installed on house roofs.

In principle it is possible to directly power the car, but the results would be limited. Now if PV cells could be pushed from 20% efficiency past 80%, then solar powered cars might be possible if they were litterally painted with PV cells and were very light and aerodynamic, but thats a long way off. If your house can charge your car off of solar power, the same results and low operating cost would be the same as a direct solar car though only with more collection area, and that is happening right now.


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## DIYguy (Sep 18, 2008)

Nice job on the battery box's David. Being a welder/fitter comes in handy. 

What kind of welder do you have at home?

cheers.


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

I may not speak french but I am fluent in Mig and Tig wielding (aluminum and steel) lol. Aluminum and Tig are my favorite to work with. I used a mix of mig and tig wielding on the box. Longer more consistent wields were done with mig. Shorter wields with inconsistent gaps required a bit more control, so I used the Tig there.


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## joshg678 (Jan 25, 2009)

Thanks for the welcome.
I am not too worried about keeping the interior of the car cool during the day, but more so charging the car, even if its just a trickle.

I drive about 80 miles a day round trip. However i usually need my head lights 1/2 of the time, which would lower the mileage on an electric car. Since my car can be parked on the top of the parking garage at work, i could be in direct sunlight for most of the day. If the car had solar panels on the roof and or hood of the car, how much juice do you think the car could get during the day when the car is off?
Also a lot of the driving i do is sitting in traffic going 10-20mph (gotta love the DC area) which i would think an EV would not need much juice during this time and if the sun is still shining it could help improve the range and lessen the demand on the home power to charge the car at night.
Does this seem like a solution that could be achieved or not?


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## DIYguy (Sep 18, 2008)

david85 said:


> I may not speak french but I am fluent in Mig and Tig wielding (aluminum and steel) lol. Aluminum and Tig are my favorite to work with. I used a mix of mig and tig wielding on the box. Longer more consistent wields were done with mig. Shorter wields with inconsistent gaps required a bit more control, so I used the Tig there.


I can relate... I'm a jouneyman welder, Alberta registered. I don't do it every day though. I worked in Welding Engineering technology for 20 years after that. I always enjoyed TIG on Al also. The AC reverse polarity half cycle keeps that puddle clear like a little pond.


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## dtbaker (Jan 5, 2008)

david85 said:


> I used a 5" angle grinder with a steel cut off wheel to make the rough cut,


I used an angle grinder to make the plunge cuts long enough to stick in the sawzall... and ZIPPP opened it up like a can of tuna.


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## dtbaker (Jan 5, 2008)

joshg678 said:


> how much juice do you think the car could get during the day when the car is off?


A full size 2x5 panel will be rated anywhere from 185-210 watts. If you get it at a good angle, you get maybe 3 hours close to than, and then another hour or two at reduced production. If the panel is flat on the roof, then you gotta cut down the max possible by the reduced area catching sun.

My guess would be under the BEST conditions, with panel to sun, you'd get maybe .5 to .75 kWhr per day. On my house setup, with 24 x 210 w panels at 30 degrees, I get between 20-30kWhr per day depending on sun and time of year.


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## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

awesome battery box David light and strong,,

B


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

joshg678 said:


> Thanks for the welcome.
> I am not too worried about keeping the interior of the car cool during the day, but more so charging the car, even if its just a trickle.
> 
> I drive about 80 miles a day round trip. However i usually need my head lights 1/2 of the time, which would lower the mileage on an electric car. Since my car can be parked on the top of the parking garage at work, i could be in direct sunlight for most of the day. If the car had solar panels on the roof and or hood of the car, how much juice do you think the car could get during the day when the car is off?
> ...


I'm sorry to say, not really....

If you were to use all the best technology available today, it would have some effect, but compared to the cost of such a system, it would probably never pay for itself because space age panels don't come cheap and even if they did, the power generated would not be enough to add more than a few miles on a sunny day. If you were unable to recharge at worrk, your only other option is to go to a more advanced battery than just lead golf car batteries. That way, you can recharge at home and confidently drive to and from work on a single charge. 40 mile commute? dang....

Do you know what your electricity rates are? Powering the car direct from your home may not cost as much as you think.

Its not cheap, but the cost of lithium batteries is still comming down, and the global recession seems to be pushing the price down even more as oil stays relatively cheap. There are some numbers that are leaking out that suggest a battery needed for a 100 mile range could be had for under $10000, it could last more than 10 years, and is maintenance free.

If you want to build an EV like this some day, you might not have to wait much longer. I'll keep my results public when the car is done, and real world performance numbers will be easier and easier to find in the years ahead as more EV enthusiests try out the newer offshore lithium batteries. All the news so far seems to be limited, but generally good.

Stick around, because I think these could be some exiting times comming up


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## Jimdear2 (Oct 12, 2008)

joshg678 said:


> Thanks for the welcome.
> Since my car can be parked on the top of the parking garage at work,


Sorry this is off thread a bit but I have a good answer for Josh and maybe others.

Josh,

If you are in a company parking garage see if there couldn't be an outlet made available for charging while you work. 

It could be, if presented Greenly (hey a new word) to your company, that they would allow this hook up for no charge. But even if you had to pay extra for it, you would probably end up with a reserved spot. 

For the rest of us, remember that many flat lots with lights have outlets as well.

Just a wild idea,
Jim


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## joshg678 (Jan 25, 2009)

Jimdear2 said:


> Sorry this is off thread a bit but I have a good answer for Josh and maybe others.
> 
> Josh,
> 
> ...



Haha, very true. Lucky for me the top level is usually empty and the front row parking is really close to stairs/elevators.

I will keep an eye out to see if they have a plug near by i could use but im pretty sure the politics would prohibit that.


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## Jimdear2 (Oct 12, 2008)

joshg678 said:


> I will keep an eye out to see if they have a plug near by i could use but im pretty sure the politics would prohibit that.


 
Sorry off topic again But . . . 

LORDY! ! ! ! don't take current without permission.

If you offer to pay and make it known that you are paying a fee for the use, maybe the politics would go away.

It might even cause a stir of interest when people find out how little electrics cost to operate after you applied your labor and money into the conversion.

If this goes on we'll start a new thread

Jim


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## joshg678 (Jan 25, 2009)

David,
Any plans on using solar energy?


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

joshg678 said:


> David,
> Any plans on using solar energy?


Long term it is planned for the house and that would offset the recharge cost of the car as well as lighting and home heating costs, but for now I'm just working on finishing the car. I have no plans to put solar power directly on the car, but you never know what might happen in the years ahead once oil gets pricy again and development in PV cells accelerates.

The reason why I asked if you knew your electricity rates is because here its about $0.08/kwh (CAD) my car will have 28.8kwh on paper, and I'll add another 10% for efficiency loss. That means for a complete recharge, it would cost me $2.53 to go the expected 100+ miles.


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## joshg678 (Jan 25, 2009)

david85 said:


> The reason why I asked if you knew your electricity rates is because here its about $0.08/kwh (CAD) my car will have 28.8kwh on paper, and I'll add another 10% for efficiency loss. That means for a complete recharge, it would cost me $2.53 to go the expected 100+ miles.


wow $2.53 is sounding really nice compared to my $1.75~36miles.


David the parts your taking off the Saturn what are your plans for them, you got another Saturn to use them for spares or you gonna hock em?


I also was curious what are your plans for the transmission? I take it your going to mount the Motor directly to the transmission or are you going to rig up a flywheel and clutch?


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## dtbaker (Jan 5, 2008)

david85 said:


> ... if you knew your electricity rates is because here its about $0.08/kwh (CAD) my car will have 28.8kwh on paper,


The rate in NM is about .09/kWhr. The electricity from my PV system I get PAID a gross of $.13/kWhr, PLUS net metering my meter goes backward! very cool really. 

D


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

joshg678 said:


> wow $2.53 is sounding really nice compared to my $1.75~36miles.
> 
> 
> David the parts your taking off the Saturn what are your plans for them, you got another Saturn to use them for spares or you gonna hock em?
> ...


Operating cost is one thing, but the car will also be practically zero maintinance if I can get it built the way I want it. The motor will be air cooled and as sealed bearings, batteries never vent, no coolant or oil changes, and if I get the right motor, the brakes will last indefinately thanks to regenerative braking.

This is my only saturn, so I have no use for the engine, air intake ducts, fuel system and other odds and ends. I'll try to sell them locally if I can, but not much hope of that. Why you ask?

I could couple the motor directly to the transmission shaft, but I would rather keep the clutch for this build. Upshifting is faster that way and I think it could make the car more fun to drive for those times that I "get ont it".


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

dtbaker said:


> The rate in NM is about .09/kWhr. The electricity from my PV system I get PAID a gross of $.13/kWhr, PLUS net metering my meter goes backward! very cool really.
> 
> D


You are way ahead of the pack, dtbaker


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## joshg678 (Jan 25, 2009)

Jimdear2 said:


> This is my only saturn, so I have no use for the engine, air intake ducts, fuel system and other odds and ends. I'll try to sell them locally if I can, but not much hope of that. Why you ask?


Some Parts may have some interest to me/brother (muffler, cat other misc parts)



Jimdear2 said:


> I could couple the motor directly to the transmission shaft, but I would rather keep the clutch for this build. Upshifting is faster that way and I think it could make the car more fun to drive for those times that I "get ont it".


Good man, haha.

I always thought it was better to mount the motor to a makeshift flywheel so you could clutch and drive it like a normal car. The nice thing about it would be little to no clutch wear because you won't need to ride the clutch at start off. Plus that would put less wear on the transmission when shifting and give better power for hills. That was always my dream of building an electric car but i don't have the money to build something like this.

What kind of RPM will your motor do?


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

The muffler and cat still appear to be in tact, but the cat will have to be cut out due to the connection being so rusted (I thought saturns were supposed to have an all stainless steel exhuast??). I try and find out what it will cost to ship it to you, but I am basically on the other corner of the continent.

The motor will have a similar redline as the engine, a little over 6000 RPM. Not having to feather the clutch will make it much easier to drive.


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## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

Haven't heard much lately from you , are ya still workin on th EV??

Brian


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

Not really. I have the battery now, but I'm too busy with other things to work on the car right now. I've got an engine (as in ICE) that is giving me chit for the last week or so and I'm within an inch of either loosing my head or actually fixing it. Its almost done but the damn oil pump won't prime.

After that, I have a railing job to build.


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## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

ya life gets that way sometimes,,I have been crazy busy at work as well but there is not much to do out there anymore,, charger should be here tomorrow or tuesday tomorrow would be awesome as I could get it all in, but it gets here when it gets here. Just came back from a 10 mile night ride and I just can't get over how cool these cars really are,, truth is had to get flowers and a card for that day tomorrow. Almost forgot. Keep us posted and what battery do you have? One of the lithiums?? I may be doing some modules LiFE packs for my buddy's Mustang we are tryin to come up with sizes etc. He came over and spent 1/2 the day doing some battey welding for me on Wednesday, of course we did more talking than working.

B


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

Yes, Its a 200ah 144v lithium iron phosphate (prismatic cells). I'm hoping for a minimum of 100 miles range but I don't want to have to resort to hypermiling to get that. EVs should be fun after all.

I set up a seperate battery thread since I seem to be fielding a lot of questions on them:

http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showthread.php/david85s-lifepo4-battery-thread-26272.html

I sure wish I was working on the electric car instead...... It was much cleaner work!


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## ElectriCar (Jun 15, 2008)

DIYguy said:


> I can relate... I'm a jouneyman welder, Alberta registered. I don't do it every day though. I worked in Welding Engineering technology for 20 years after that. I always enjoyed TIG on Al also. The AC reverse polarity half cycle keeps that puddle clear like a little pond.


I learned to stick weld but when we got a buzz box, I "unwelded" when I worked with aluminum, never could figure it out! In my hands it turned into a cutting torch!

David, wazzup? Still on hold??? I wish my lead pack would die so I'd have to buy lithium. Lead is horrible with it's sagging, pathetic cold weather performance. Who likes things that sag anyway? I never did...


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

Wielding aluminum is a completely different animal than steel. Much more picky because of the high heat transfer. A lot easier to go too hot or too cold. I've never done stick yet though, only mig and tig with SS, mild steel and aluminum.

Yeah, the car is still on hold. Hoping to work on it next week some more. We got a job order so that takes priority (95% built as of this evening), and before that I was ripping my hair out trying to troubleshoot an ICE in one of our vehicles for a week or so. Did I mention I hate ICEs? Finally got it running nicely again, but I'm still pissed!

Tomorrow I'm going snow boarding. I'm not very good, but I have to do something to relieve tension and a good wipe out or two should do nicely lol.

Oh, and I talked to Louie on thursday about my motor and hope to have that started soon. The motor controler is still uncertain because he can't start work on that now, but he can start on the motor.


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## barntechsolar (Mar 5, 2009)

david85 said:


> I'm not sure if the weight will be too much on mine but I will have to see as well. I think you are talking about your car regarding the 320 lbs, but actually, thats about what I expect my car to end up with on the rear. My car is rated for over 3000lbs GVW so it would in theory still be within the limit, but harder springs might be needed anyway.
> 
> I cut the floor out flush with the outer edge of the wielded flange of the chassie, so if I really wanted, maybe another 1.5" of side clearance could be scrounged up, but that would affect the structure more than I want. I am a little spoiled because my batteries will fit in any orientation so I have a lot of flexibility to use up every last inch of space if I have to.


hey there. I just joined this forum and I am looking towards more education in reguards to electric vehicles. Your project has intregued me even more. Last year I completed my motorcycle project and can be seen here www.evalbum.com/2196 This motorcycle has been an absolute joy to ride. Yeah, it does have an engine that powers an alternator. The next step is a battery change to something better. I am looking forward to the next conversion hopefully a motorcycle trike.


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

A few updates to report. Louie hasn't got back to me in all this time and I won't call him again, not sure whats going on with him. So the search is on for a suitable brushless or regen (prefer both) motor that doesn't cost $10k. Last resort is a warp 9"/curtis 144V controller but I'm holding out hope that it won't come to that.

Work on the car has been painfully slow. Had some health problems that slowed me down for the last few weeks, but starting to get some work done again.

The rear below trunk battery box has been installed.....perminantly. And also installing the front battery box behind the bumper. Both are looking nice, pictures comming....


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## Technologic (Jul 20, 2008)

david85 said:


> Wielding aluminum is a completely different animal than steel. Much more picky because of the high heat transfer. A lot easier to go too hot or too cold. I've never done stick yet though, only mig and tig with SS, mild steel and aluminum.


Preheating helps a lot... Once I started doing that I didn't have many issues



> Yeah, the car is still on hold. Hoping to work on it next week some more. We got a job order so that takes priority (95% built as of this evening), and before that I was ripping my hair out trying to troubleshoot an ICE in one of our vehicles for a week or so. Did I mention I hate ICEs? Finally got it running nicely again, but I'm still pissed!


Me too david... my ICE just broke last Tuesday (after 90k miles of no issues it threw a rod)... so I'm car-less for awhile (not that it's a big deal)



> Tomorrow I'm going snow boarding. I'm not very good, but I have to do something to relieve tension and a good wipe out or two should do nicely lol.
> 
> Oh, and I talked to Louie on thursday about my motor and hope to have that started soon. The motor controler is still uncertain because he can't start work on that now, but he can start on the motor.


I wish I knew of a place to get 144v sepex motor/controllers


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

Thats too bad about your car, Technologic. This one had about 200k miles on the clock when I tore it apart. Only real issue seemed to be some oil in the coolant and the woman I bought it from admitted it was like that for a long time and continued to drive it (found tons of leak stop in the coolant too). Heard from another source that its caused by a crack in the head between the oil on top and one of the cooling passeges (common for saturns). And naturally, being a saturn it used oil. Funny thing is, it drove like new on the way home. My dad survived traffic on the streets of rome and he did not go easy on it either when it was his turn to drive. You want a slightly used saturn engine? its a good runner!! LOL. 

Aw well, thats the way it goes with ICEs....I've torn enough of them apart to know that you should be very afraid. Unbelievable how easy it is to wreck one and not even know it.

Agreed with the sepex motors, with some imagination even the warp LLC series of motor could be modifed to work that way, but there would be no controller for it. Bit of a chicken and egg situation.

You are right about preheat with tig wielding Al. Eventially you will get a feel for when the metal is ready to give you a good bead. Once you Tig wield aluminum for a while you tend to use all your senses, even smell. Its not like riding a bike either. Once you get going its easy, but if you put it down for a while you can loose it.


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## Technologic (Jul 20, 2008)

david85 said:


> Aw well, thats the way it goes with ICEs....I've torn enough of them apart to know that you should be very afraid. Unbelievable how easy it is to wreck one and not even know it.


Tell me about it... ICEs are horrific creatures, I can't wait to be rid of them 



> Agreed with the sepex motors, with some imagination even the warp LLC series of motor could be modifed to work that way, but there would be no controller for it. Bit of a chicken and egg situation.


It's a really tough thing... there really needs to be an open source (even DIY sale item) of cheap 50kw+ 3 phase AC controllers... would solve so many issues 



> You are right about preheat with tig wielding Al. Eventially you will get a feel for when the metal is ready to give you a good bead. Once you Tig wield aluminum for a while you tend to use all your senses, even smell. Its not like riding a bike either. Once you get going its easy, but if you put it down for a while you can loose it.


100% agree with you here. No doubt about it. I usually mig weld aluminum (just more comfortable with it) and once I'm out of practice I usually go through a bottle of helium before getting back into the grind of it.


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

Picture time. rear battery box first, now covered in undercoating on the outsite. The close up shot is from underneath the car. I just aimed the camera up the best I could to take a shot of the lap joint between the box and the car structure. You can see the grey seam sealer oosing out and one of the U nuts that provides the main fastening. I am confident that the car will not have any leaks at the back. Everything will get a thick layer of undercoating again later on.

The lid is about 1/4" above the floor of the trunk, so cargo capacity is what it originally was before modding started. Those shoe marks were put there after it was installed so if I can stomp on it, I think it will carry what ever I need without fear of damaging the batteries underneath.


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

OK....front battery box. This actually causes my Dad and I some grief trying to figure out how best to build it then tuck it as far forward as possible. We both lost some hair, but it'll grow back. In the end we are both very happy with how it turned out.

If I remember right, there is room for 13 cells in this box, 3 on each end and 7 in the middle. The box is supported by 2 aluminum straps (3rd one comming) made of 1/4 x 3 flat bar underneath and there will be a skid plate under those. The rectangular tubing thats seen in the picture is strictly for mock up purposes and the floor jack holds everything in place. The rear of the straps will bolt into the main steel chassis of the car, the front will bolt into the aluminum bumper.

The battery box can be removed or installed from the top, or underneath the car if the plastic bumper skin is removed. Best of all, there is still tons of space left. All that is really taken up is the room for the cooling package.


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

Technologic said:


> Tell me about it... ICEs are horrific creatures, I can't wait to be rid of them .


The only thing worse is automatic transmissions. Once you understand how they work, you will be either terrified or livid.



Technologic said:


> It's a really tough thing... there really needs to be an open source (even DIY sale item) of cheap 50kw+ 3 phase AC controllers... would solve so many issues


You had me at more DIY'ers



Technologic said:


> 100% agree with you here. No doubt about it. I usually mig weld aluminum (just more comfortable with it) and once I'm out of practice I usually go through a bottle of helium before getting back into the grind of it.


See, the problem with Mig wielding is its just too easy to keep pulling the trigger and push through it lol. I've been there so many times. Maybe some day we'll have one with a hand throttle to change the heat in the run. Thats my biggest problem with mig, not having control of all the variables. But when you have 100' or more of picket railing that needs to be assembled by the end of the week, its really hard to beat. I like tig, but for speed, nothing beats a mig.


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## dschill (Mar 19, 2009)

just wanna take some time to give you props! nice build man.


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## IamIan (Mar 29, 2009)

david85 said:


> A few updates to report. Louie hasn't got back to me in all this time and I won't call him again, not sure whats going on with him.


You could try a different dealer.

*www.go-ev.com* says they have had them all in stock for some time.


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## DIYguy (Sep 18, 2008)

Looking good David. What are you going to end up doing about motor/controller?


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

DIYguy said:


> Looking good David. What are you going to end up doing about motor/controller?


My absolute last resort is a warp 9" and curtis 144V controller. But it would kill me to settle for that. It would be a reliable setup, but I'm still actively looking for something that can put at least 100 peak Hp at the shaft, 90% efficiency (combined controller / motor efficiency) or better and most importantly, regenerative breaking. The thunderstruck AC motors aren't too bad, but there is no available controller that will go all the way up to my 144-175V range. Might be able to have one made though....

I still have lots of work left on the car so I can afford to put off getting a motor. Maybe something will turn up in the mean time. Thanks to another thread and member here, I found some liquid cooled brushless motors in china that could be worth while if they respond to my inquiries.


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

Front battery box is nearly finished. 

The lid is sealed to the rest of the case with a foam gasket then held down with a few dozen SS screws. I took two pictures showing how the box can tilt rearward for removal and installation, but also to allow access to the batteries inside without having to remove the box completely. Simply undo the hold down clamps (still have to make), tilt it back, and remove the lid. This also means that the individual batteries can be removed and installed one at a time. Before I was thinking that it may have to be serviced as an assembly. Fortunately, we figured out something better.

I also took a shot of the front of the car close up to see how tall the box really is. The bottom of the box is only about 1/2" above the skid plate. I'm really happy with how far forward and low down the battery is. It will have to come out again for the rest of the work but for now its in the car to be out of the way.


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## El Rayo (Mar 23, 2009)

david85 said:


> there is no available controller that will go all the way up to my 144-175V range.


Have you investigated in the availability of the Siemens Simovert and Simotion inverters?
http://www.metricmind.com/data/man_w.pdf
There is even a forum dedicated to those only.
http://www.automation.siemens.com/W...&SortOrder=Descending&ForumID=155&Language=en
The Simotion inverter used in the 1999 - 2002 Th!nk City EV is rated up to 350V.


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## El Rayo (Mar 23, 2009)

I think this inverter requires a posision sensor on the motor.


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## BWH (Sep 26, 2008)

If I ever buy Lithium you know you are going to have to build me a set of boxes as well.


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

Part of me is holding out hope that there may be a market for parts for a coversion like this (like the aluminum battery boxes), but who knows what will happen in the end.


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

Picture time. The front box is basically ready to go. The lid will be what secures the cells down in the box and holes will have to be drilled for the wires to come through, but the box is in, and bolted down SOLID.

The headlight brackets had to be cut slightly and spaced forward by 1/4" (see finger pointing at spacer). Some minor tin bashing was also required because the box ended up being 1/4" too long and modding the car was the easiest way to correct that. This box is extremely tightly fit, but I'm happy because space is at a premium.

The box is clamped down to the support straps (3"x1/4" aluminum flat bar) by 1/2" SS threaded rod bolts. The front is rooted a custom aluminum bracket, and the rear clamp rods are rooted in the main steel cross member. It might as well be cast in cement it so stiff now. I also shot it with a rubberized undercoating before dropping it in. It helps hide any slight warps in the metal and will add protection for the salty parts of the year.

The skid plate underneath is a bit of an overkill, but it will add some protection for the batteries and also will blend in well for a belly pan later on.

All bolts that are used to hold the battery box in place are 1/2" stainless steel.
I have room for 13 of the 48 batteries in this box alone. Another 11 cell box will be built and installed against the firewall. That leaves 6 cells left that I have to place. The room left by the fuel tank may be used, not sure yet.


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## tebriel (Apr 30, 2009)

Hey david! I signed up. So what is the $$ on this anyway? It's gotta be alot.


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

tebriel said:


> Hey david! I signed up. So what is the $$ on this anyway? It's gotta be alot.


Hey, welcome aboard. Yeah its pretty steep. The battery was $16k and the motor will probably be another ~4k. It sounds like a lot, but considering there are no other electric cars right now that can go past 100 miles per charge and still be under $100k, its right on par for what it is.

The projected lifespan of the battery is at least 10 years, and the motor has no fixed lifespan. The controls are solid state, and there are no brushes to wear out if the current deal goes through.

Cost of motors and batteries are still falling, so the next saturnEV will be cheaper and maybe faster too. I found out there is a much better selection of electric motors and controllers in the 320V range.

The rust repair I did on the rear rockers cost me nothing but my own time.

There are examples of low cost EVs being build for under $1000, but I was after a longer range vehicle.


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

Long time no see, been busy with too many things in the outside world but I have a few updates. I'm hoping to wrap up some of the work I was doing for another member (building battery boxes) over the next few days. Since his car is identical to mine, I am using it as a template for his boxes.

For the rear battery box, I wasn't quite happy with how it installs against the rear of the car trunk. To figure out something better I removed the rear bumper from the car and figured I can do something better, and simpler for the MK2 version.

First thing I found was a few pounds worth of dust and gravel in the bumper. Thats a few pounds off the curb weight LOL! Next thing I discovered was a rust catch area that I haven't found before.

What I'm showing here is the metal reinforcing for the lower edge of the trunk opening of the car. Normally it not visible. You can see the rust at the joint and in another picture, I am pointing to drain holes that are completely clogged shut. I was lucky the rust didn't go through. The design flaw here is there are all sorts of openings that are stamped in the part that are intended to make it lighter, but the drain holes are just too small.

I've cleared the dust and gravel out and undercoated the area, so it should be fine now.


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

Now for the revisions I'll make on the rear main box design. After removing the bumper, it became clear that I could have done much better with installing the box in the my car.

Basically, I cut too high when I cut out the rear wall of spare tire carrier. This meant that I had to make a fancy sheet metal bend on the top of the rear wall of the battery box that added to complexity. As you can all see, there was plenty of extra material I could have made use of if only I made the cut in the car a little lower. This would have greatly simplified the rear joint of the box to the car structure.

This box is ~9" deep and I held the end of the measuring tape at the spot where the top of the box is. Even 1" lower would have made the difference. Oh well, the version I'm working on right now should be much easier to install and finish so it looks nice. Live and learn.


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## BWH (Sep 26, 2008)

david85 said:


> First thing I found was a few pounds worth of dust and gravel in the bumper.


I didn't know Saturns were susceptible to Pica.


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## WaxyChicken (Aug 23, 2009)

is this project still underway? it's been a month since the last post.

With in the next month or two i hope to start a 93ish Saturn SL1 conversion if I'm able to find an appropriate doner car.


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

WaxyChicken said:


> is this project still underway? it's been a month since the last post.
> 
> With in the next month or two i hope to start a 93ish Saturn SL1 conversion if I'm able to find an appropriate doner car.


Hey, welcome to the forum.

Unfortunately its on hold right now. Everything should work in theory, but time is against me right now. Next thing to do will be the machining of adaptor plate and some modding of the motor.

I think they are a wonderful car to convert even if they lack the "cool factor" of other vehicles.


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## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

david85 said:


> My absolute last resort is a warp 9" and curtis 144V controller. But it would kill me to settle for that. It would be a reliable setup, but I'm still actively looking for something that can put at least 100 peak Hp at the shaft, 90% efficiency (combined controller / motor efficiency) or better and most importantly, regenerative breaking. The thunderstruck AC motors aren't too bad, but there is no available controller that will go all the way up to my 144-175V range. Might be able to have one made though....
> 
> I still have lots of work left on the car so I can afford to put off getting a motor. Maybe something will turn up in the mean time. Thanks to another thread and member here, I found some liquid cooled brushless motors in china that could be worth while if they respond to my inquiries.


Hey Jim at Logisystems (can or I can get it for you) make a controller that will handle 200 volts, but this is max volts with you Lifepo4 batteries that would be 55 cells in series or 175 volts nominal. Would that help???

Brian


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

Thanks for the offer Brian, but I already have a BLDC motor and controller. Here's the thread where I explain that:

http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showthread.php/toys-finally-here-34170.html

So thats one step ahead for me, but the motor will need some modding to accept an adaptor plate. I really wanted to squeeze every last mile out of the car and thats why I opted for a brushless motor with regen even if this one is a little underpowered (20kw constant, 40 peak).

I do still need a DC/DC converter though, and so far you seem to have the best one.


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

Project is still alive.

Work is finally running out and I can get back to progress on the car, but since I'll be going to Australia in late november it seems unlikely that I'll be able to drive it this year. Next month is fairly open, but I don't know if I can finish it before then (hope so!!!) Anyway, here are some updates.

I had to have a custom spline coupler made up in vancouver. After running around town and all the way to the farm tractor supply 1 hour away, I found nothing that could match it. It seems that being a metric spline, it was impossible to find a listing for it. A local hydraulics shop manager shared his contact with me that he had in vancouver. A machinist that could make up ANY spline coupling in house. Very nice of him, I must say. We agreed that he wouldn't have to kill me to keep the secret as long as I agreed to give him a ride in the car when it was done......deal

The machinist in vancouver blew us (my Dad and I) away. He told me what measurements to take and I emailed the info to him. He told me up front how much it would cost and I gave the ok to make it (I asked in an Email how I should pay him but he didn't reply). THE NEXT MORNING it was delivered at our door. It gets better.

We got a call from him later that day to ask if we received it. My Dad talked to him and confirmed that not only did we get it, but it did fit perfectly. To which he replied, ok, good, I'll mail you the bill then. In other words, he wouldn't have billed us unless it fit.

There might have been service like that out there somewhere in the world, but until I saw it with my own eyes, I would have never believed it.

This evening we got to work and we now have a shaft coupler for the motor to the transmission. With some luck we might have the adapter plate made this weekend.


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

Now to the specifics of the spline coupler.

Here you can see the female spline taken out of the clutch of the car, the motor shaft, and custom spline that was custom made. Second picture shows it on the motor shaft.


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

What Dad suggested was to turn the outside spline of the clutch adaptor down to an interference fit for the INSIDE of the larger spline coupling. The overlap would make the connection stronger, and it would also aid in self centering the two together. Also to put a slight taper fit on the spline to make for a nice snug fit when it goes into the larger piece. Once we were happy with the size, I gingerly applied 50 tons of pressure to force the two parts together. He too pictures as I pressed it in. The larger spline coupler was heated before the press fit just for good measure.

In reality, the pressure gauge didn't register much force and it went together very easily (didn't take 50 tons)


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

Now came time to wield them. First attempt I made didn't work. I used carbon steel filler rod and and tried to Tig wield them together but the wield cracked as soon as it cooled.

Again, pop figured out a solution. He heated the assembly up with the torch again to keep everything hot enough that the wield didn't cool as rapidly. I also switched to stainless steel filler rod, since the tensile strength is higher. Picture is taken after wielding is complete, but he is keeping some gentile heat on it so it cools slowly. Took about half an hour to get cool enough to handle again.

The wield was then turned down using a mix of lathe (very difficult on SS wields!) and good old fashioned angle grinder. I'm happy with the result (overkill).


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

david85 said:


> In other words, he wouldn't have billed us unless it fit.
> 
> There might have been service like that out there somewhere in the world, but until I saw it with my own eyes, I would have never believed it.


I had a similar experience with Craig Dusing of EV solutions. He sent me the adapter for my Fiero without billing me until I was sure it would fit. This was a $500 CNC aluminum adapter plate .
Glad to see you're still plugging away, the coupler looks sweet.


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## joshg678 (Jan 25, 2009)

That is awesome, looks very nice.
I would love to have a electric car my self, but have no time to really make one.

Can't wait to see yours completed.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Wondering how you are going to lock the coupler to one of the shafts?


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## paker (Jun 20, 2008)

If the adapter for the motor to transmission is the correct width, as well as the coupler there shouldn't be a need for a coupler lock if there is no play on the shafts.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Unless the coupler presses against the face of the motor and the transmission, which it shouldn't, there is nothing to keep it from constantly sliding back and forth along the splines, increasing wear and possibly causing vibrations.


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

JRP3 said:


> Unless the coupler presses against the face of the motor and the transmission, which it shouldn't, there is nothing to keep it from constantly sliding back and forth along the splines, increasing wear and possibly causing vibrations.


I was wondering if some one would catch that. You are correct. However, the wield actually shrunk the spline coupler for the transmission down to the point where some gentle hammering is needed to get it on the shaft. We are going to run it like that and see if it stays put. If if moves during normal use, we will drill and tap for a lock screw to hold it to the motor shaft. As it sits in there right now, its not possible for it to come off and disable the vehicle.

Getting ready to do a dry run of the motor and tranny in the car. Its sitting in there right now, but CV shafts still have to be installed and for that the wheel hubs still have to come off. Hope to have the mounts figured out for the motor tomorrow and finalize the adjustments of everything to make sure the shafts are strait and the motor/transmission is positioned where it should be. The motor is big, but theres still a decent amount of room around it. It fits like it was meant to be

Also, since this controller has a low voltage cut off, I will have to assemble the complete battery pack right next to the car for the dry run.

More pictures tomorrow.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

david85 said:


> I was wondering if some one would catch that. You are correct. However, the wield actually shrunk the spline coupler for the transmission down to the point where some gentle hammering is needed to get it on the shaft.


Interesting. I was wondering if it would be possible, (don't see why not), to have the coupler spline machined for a slight press fit, which you seemed to have achieved inadvertently.
Slightly off topic, but I keep wondering if "wield" is some sort of alternate Canadian spelling of "weld"? I've never seen it used that way before.


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## paker (Jun 20, 2008)

JRP3 said:


> Unless the coupler presses against the face of the motor and the transmission, which it shouldn't, there is nothing to keep it from constantly sliding back and forth along the splines, increasing wear and possibly causing vibrations.


That's why one needs to find a competent machinist.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

Would the application of thread lock to one set of splines work?


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

Yeah, thats how we spell weld up here. Every version of english is effed up in its own way (canadian, british, aussie, etc). Here we have the french influence on the language, but its not france french, its quebec french and yes there is a difference. I'm supposed to spell the word color as colour program as programme and so on. I tend to generally stick to american english though since all the extra letters in some canadian spelling seem completely pointless to me. Even then spelling of english tends to follow no real rhyme or reason. Some where in canada an english proffessor won't be able to sleep tonight and he'll have no idea why after I say that Silent letters really piss me off. I could rant all day about english lol.

I really need to learn a second language.

The idea of a lock screw would involve drilling part way into the shaft itself. Say, about a quarter of an inch or less and not tightening the lock screw all the way down inside the hole. Since there is some small amount of slack on the larger spline coupling, I don't want to tighten it to one side. Unlike keyed couplings, spline couplings tend to self center when under torque load. So what I had in mind was to carve the lock screw to 45 degree point, then tighten it to where it enters the drilled bore in the side of the spline shaft, but not enough for it to bottom out. That would locate the coupling, but still allow for some float without putting load on the screw stem. The lock screw would then require locktite since it wouldn't have any real torque on it applied.

Hope I explained that clearly enough. Basically thats my "plan B" should the coupler decide to start moving around.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

paker said:


> That's why one needs to find a competent machinist.


I'd think this is more an issue of proper design. Basically as long as the coupler is locked to one of the shafts you should be ok, but just having 2 splines, even well machined, may not be enough, unless there is a press fit on one, as in Davids situation.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Woodsmith said:


> Would the application of thread lock to one set of splines work?


I don't think so if it's a slip fit. The only thing a thread locker prevents is vibration rotating a fastener. It might help in a light press fit situation, but I don't really know.


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

Well I dragged the whole battery out into the shop, and connected everything up for a dry run test on blocks.

So far everything looks good. The motor and CV shafts ran smooth, and without any issues. Now that I know where the motor will stay, I can start planning the huge battery box to drop down on top of the motor. If this works, the car will have similar weight distribution as stock and best of all, WIDE OPEN TRUNK!!!!!!!! WOOOHOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

The motor is only resting on that side of the car, but the transmission is holding it in the correct position. Its going to be extremely tight, but I think I can install the remaining 17 cells right over the motor, and the controller will be installed lengthwise (in line with the centerline of the car) over the transmission (some modding of the controller case will be needed though). Its gonna be a well packed engine bay with less than one inch clearance to the hood in many places

For a while I had resigned myself to installing at least a few cells in the trunk but I really didn't want to since this car has nice fold down rear seats and actually has similar cargo room as my mom's rav4 suv. Actually, I think a 4x8 sheet of plywood might even fit in this thing....might be too narrow but you get the idea. This also means that knocking another hole in the floor below the rear seat where the fuel tank was located now becomes pointless. My life just got much easier.

Bottom line is it won't be a crippled car that looses comfort of convenience just because its electric which is exactly what I wanted. As for the real reason why I am so excited, well the video is still uploading


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

Here it is:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r1czQ5iRguE&feature=player_embedded

The transmission and motor seem be made for each other! Shifting clutchless was ridiculously easy. I won't know how well this will work on the road until I drive it for real, but this is encouraging. I was so tempted to try rolling the car on its wheels for a few inches, but after seeing it jolt from barely touching the throttle, I casually disconnected everything and proceeded to lift the front end on blocks. Yes, I should have known better, but I couldn't resist. Crunching the numbers, the car will probably be able to break traction in 1st gear not sure about the rest.

Plywood adapter plate seems to work pretty well too. Who knew.

I also had to connect the motor reversing wires to get it to turn in the correct direction. If I wanted to, I could have 5 speeds in reverse too, but I see no point, and I'll just make use of as many gears as I have to.

Still can't get over that sound. First signs of life


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## DIYguy (Sep 18, 2008)

Looking very promising David! You must be getting excited! Too bad you didn't have your Al plate yet... it would have taken about the same time to make it out of that...then again, the jig sawing is kinda slow....lol

(btw...English gets me going too... and I have french to deal with in my house also - wife and kids...lol) however I have never seen this spelling of the word WELD...?? What did I miss?? lmao.)


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Cool. How much weight with the motor, inverter, and batteries will you have in the front? Do you think it will be front heavy?


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## gdirwin (Apr 7, 2009)

Congratulations David - so its kind of an EV smirk (not quite a full EV grin at this point).

Why did you decide to use reverse on the motor, instead of reverse gear in the transmission? Did you lock the reverse transmission gear as a parking brake or similar?


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## BWH (Sep 26, 2008)

Yay! 

You must be feeling pretty good right now.


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

Yup, feeling pretty good now. Still have that sound rattling in the back of my head.

Aluminum adapter? whats wrong with plywood? This plate was in fact made on our CNC machine as a test run. There are 2 small corrections that I will have to make, but it came out pretty good. We'll make a second wooden plate after the corrections, and if that checks out, then the aluminum plate and mounts will get carved out.

Weight?

The motor is about 130lbs (lighter than it looks). The controller is said to be about 30 lbs. so that gets us to 160 lbs for the package, ok add another 10 for good measure (wiring fuses, relay, etc). That gets us to 170 lbs. The engine was something like 195lbs dry. Fairly light since saturn engines are all aluminum. A warP 9" would have been about 170 for just the motor and 20-40 for the controller depending on which one you get, so I'm pretty happy with what I have so far.

The batteries divide up with 18 in the rear box, 13 behind the front bumper, and the remaining 17 will be installed over the motor. I haven't weighed them myself, but the specs call for about 15.2lbs per cell. That makes for 456.25lbs on the front axle, and 275.75 on the rear for batteries alone. So over 630 lbs worth of battery, motor, and controller on the front.

I did have all the batteries in the car at one point to see how it took the weight. the box behind the front bumper was filled, and so was the trunk floor box. The remaining batteries were placed in the front foot wells of the car since thats as far forward as I could get them. At that point, the front wheel camber was still off indicating not enough weight. Got my Dad to stand on the front bumper and then the camber came close to where it should be. It might still be too much weight for the stock springs, but I don't think it will be by much. I'll probably get stiffer springs no matter what happens, since I know the car will weight more when its done, but so far even the stock springs seem to be coping well.

Reversing switch can be used later on, but I feel it wouldn't look right to have a reversing switch AND the reverse gear. Eventually, I might make a custom shifter that only uses 3 or 4 of the forward gears, and then have a reversing switch, but for now the idea is to keep the car as stock as possible in appearance and function. It could also be confusing or even dangerous for some one unfamiliar with the car to have two methods of reversing than cancel each other out!. Could turn into one of those "who's on first?" situations"


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## RKM (Jun 9, 2008)

Hey David,

I've been away, so missed this new progress. Congratulations! Getting the wheels to spin when you first press the accelerator is the first buzz. Like Garth says, the smirk will grow into the grin when you first roll away on electrons! 

Great to see you getting so close. Will your CNC carve Al? Bet it will.

Rob


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

Oh yes it will.....thats the whole point


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## joshg678 (Jan 25, 2009)

Dave i've been meaning to ask, 
Do you think this system will allow you to Charge the Batteries while driving using different methods? (generator in the trunk for longer trips/Regenerative braking?)


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

Hey Josh,

In theory, there could be room to install a generator in the trunk, but thats not in the cards yet. As I mentioned earlier, the trunk will be completely open after completion, so I would imagine a decent sized generator could be fitted if needed. Actually, the space for the fuel tank is also unused.......hmmmm something to think about.

The motor should have regenerative braking when you let off the pedal, but its hard to tell how effective it will be with the car on blocks and no load. In the video, you can sort of hear the gears when I let off the throttle and the tires come to a stop. Won't know how well it works until I drive it. The local ski hill is about 35 miles away, and it would be really nice to be able to regen on the way down. Minivans are always burning their brakes on the way down LOL!


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## joshg678 (Jan 25, 2009)

Will you have a way to control the regen?

I just made a trip back from PA this weekend going down a 6% grade for about 10 miles and most of the car's in the left lane just kept coasting down. I hit 102mph before going back up the hill. If i ever needed to slow down i would turn off O/D and use the brakes a little bit. I love driving next to someone who rides there brakes, when it got dark i could see some people's brakes glow a tad lol.


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

LOL! never saw that before, but I'll believe it. When I'm engine braking my truck down the mountain, and there are 3-4 minvans or light SUVs (many are rentals) it sure stinks! Its only a 2 lane, so I have no choice but to follow in their trail. A few times there was some smoke.

Not really sure about the regen, but I think it is dynamic based on your foot control. The pedal assembly that came with the controller only powers up the motor near the halfway point to the floor. From that point and up, could be the regen sensing zone. Mid point and down, is definately dynamic RPM control. But its really hard to gauge just be looking at the wheels spinning in the air. Acceleration is definately more powerful then decel though so I don't think it will strong enough to pitch you forward.

Thats the other thing with these cars, they are so streamlined and light, that air drag alone probably won't really slow them down on steeper hills even above 70 MPH. On 6% my truck looses speed from 70 MPH if you leave it in neutral. Adding more weight will only make it worse. Having regen wasn't just about efficiency, but also about safety for me. Engine braking is not possible if a motor is just freewheeling and I know some guys here managed to get their brakes pretty hot on occasion.

Unfortunately, I can't seem to locate any rear disk brakes in any of the local autowreckers. Going to check some of them in the larger city 100 miles away since I have business there this week anyway.


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

Ok, I made a few changes to the setup.

First, is I had to rotate the motor roughly 180 degrees. I tried several positions and eventually settled on where it is. This does a few things for me.

1; it means I won't have to remove the battery box to access the connections to the motor. Now the cover is accessible from under the car without having to take anything apart.

2; the motor case is now drip proof since the only opening to the case is the electric box on the side, which is directly under the motor.

3; the top spine casting of the motor now lines up with the 2 main holes of the CV shaft support bearing bracket. I drilled and tapped it to accept those 2 bolts and if need be, I can send a 3rd brace to the adapter plate to stiffen it up even more. So far it seems to be stiff enough as is. I may use the same bolts as part of the motor mount later on. Still have to figure that out.

4; Now that the electrical box is under the motor, I gained some more wiggle room for the final battery box.

5; motor will need a paint job before final assembly lol. trying all those different positions and sliding it around on the bench took its toll. Not a biggie though.

The other thing I did was relocate the upper transaxle mount. This would have interfered with the top corner of the front battery box. Now it not only clears the battery box, but also is clear enough that the front box can swing back normally for removal and installation. A simple 1/4" x 3" angle bracket with some nice cuts and a few holes, finishes that side of the mounting. The hole for the stud that actually bolts to the transmission mount arm is actually machine threaded to match that bolt. That bracket is mostly my Dad's work actually. He's got a few years experience on my when it comes to things like this (maybe more than just a few).

Next thing to figure out is how the mounts are going to work on the motor. Unlike the warP or ADC motors, there are no tail housing mounts on this thing so I'll have to do some brainstorming on what would work best without being too ugly or complicated (or expensive).


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## joshg678 (Jan 25, 2009)

david85 said:


> LOL! never saw that before, but I'll believe it. When I'm engine braking my truck down the mountain, and there are 3-4 minvans or light SUVs (many are rentals) it sure stinks! Its only a 2 lane, so I have no choice but to follow in their trail. A few times there was some smoke.
> 
> Not really sure about the regen, but I think it is dynamic based on your foot control. The pedal assembly that came with the controller only powers up the motor near the halfway point to the floor. From that point and up, could be the regen sensing zone. Mid point and down, is definately dynamic RPM control. But its really hard to gauge just be looking at the wheels spinning in the air. Acceleration is definately more powerful then decel though so I don't think it will strong enough to pitch you forward.
> 
> Unfortunately, I can't seem to locate any rear disk brakes in any of the local autowreckers. Going to check some of them in the larger city 100 miles away since I have business there this week anyway.


I would see if you can set it up so as soon as you touch the brake petal it begins regen because then you could possibly use regen to slow with no brakes used.

I never could find those parts either, i just went to AZ and got calipers, brackets, bolts, parking brake cable, brake hose, those rubber things for the bolts, roters, pads, and the metal clips that holds the pads in place. I think it was about $300 total. 
My Turbo has the Hawk Pads and Sloted roters (forget the brand) and that baby stops on a dime, even when doing 110mph lol.


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

Time for some electrical work. This is where the pack rat in me can save a few coins.

What you see here are actually 2 wiring harnesses that I have been hanging on to for a few years now and scavenging parts as needed. One harness is from an 87 ranger with a 2.9 EFI (converted to diesel, so the wiring no longer needed). Anyone need a ford EEC lV computer?

The second harness is from a ford E4OD transmission that I bought as a core to convert my truck to an overdrive transmission.

WeatherPack has an excellent line of electrical connectors, but those cost money if you have to buy them new. However, most vehicles use them OEM, so if you have a left over engine harness.....hang on to it because the connectors can come in handy.

Most of the connectors in both harnesses are weather proof with silicone seals in them and have locking tabs so they can't come apart in normal use. No surprise there. What some of you might not know is that they are serviceable and can be reused without having to cut wires or have exposed splices. I'll show how its done in the next few posts.

The hand full of 8 pin connectors I am holding in the second picture are actually from different vehicles, but they will plug in if they have the correct pattern.


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

Ok, so I need one 5 pin connector for the motor sensor wires, and another 3 pin connector for the throttle pedal.

I have a 3 pin, so thats no problem. Don't have a 5 pin, so I'll settle for one of the 8 pin connectors and simply leave 3 empty. Might use them later for something. If I ever decide to run a switch for the electronic motor reverse, then that takes up 2 of them.

Here is the 3 pin connector.

Notice that there is a red line across the middle. This is in fact a locking key to prevent the pin locking snaps from comming loose. A nice small and sharp set of needle nose pliers can grab this key and remove it.

Now you have access to the locking snaps that hold each of the pins in place. I used some steel wielding wire, but a 2" sewing needle would also work well. The camera can't really pick up details as small as the locking snaps inside there, but lets just say, having good eyesight will help.


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

It takes a little practice to get the locks off the pins and be able to slide the pin out the back of the connector, but its easy once you get a feel for it. Once the lock is released, the pin (be it male or female) will slide out though the rear seal of the connector.

The rear seal block that each pin and wire slide through is removable like the rest of the components on each connector. It simply slides out. There is a decent amount of planning that went into this system of connectors. Kudos to who ever cooked it up.


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

Here is where you have a few options. I suspect its possible to order the correct pins and crimp them on yourself to have the exact OEM assembly. I'm going to solder wires onto the crimp instead. This can be controversial in some circles, but I never had a solder joint fail on me unless it was exposed repeatedly to sea water and that was a matter of corrosion, not metal fatigue.

Here they are for the 3 pin connector soldered, and ready to be plugged in. Something you need to watch out for is to make sure your joint is not wider than the total width of the pin part of the connector. If its too wide from a big blob of solder, wire insulation or crooked connection, it won't slide in all the way and you will have to redo your work. If you did it right, they should slide in without too much effort until you hear the "click" of the locking tab grab the pin connector.

If you are sure of the order of the wiring order, then you can pop the locking key back in and you're done. Test the wiring before though, because they can be a pain to get out if you handle them too much. I'm at the testing stage right now, so I'll have to wait for the adapter plate to be finished before I will finalize the 5 pin connector. For now, both are done.

You might be wondering why I opted to do an external spice on one side of the 5 pin connector. This was because the sensor wires are so delicate, that I was concerned about them being able to seal properly to the connector. I was also worried that such small wires would be too easy to rip out. Once I retest everything and make sure the connections are correct, the 5 wire harness will be wrapped in electrical tape to tie them all together and reduce the risk of any wires being ripped out. Might get some split loom to further protect things.

As a side note, after using a piezo ignition butane torch once for some electrical work far from a 110 volt house hold outlet, I have never gone back. Take some getting used to, but they work great and there is no chord or heat up time to deal with. I can solder 10 gauge wires with that little thing.


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## GreenOptions (Oct 31, 2009)

Hi

just a couple of little questions , did you make a third chassis to motor mounting point ? ?

you will recall the ICE motor had at least two rubber mounts and two more on the gearbox/ transmission.

i cant see in the photos but if you dont have at least a mounting point from the motor foot mount running back to the chassis , then it means you have only two rubber mounts on the transmission to carry torque load and motor mass ?

you MUST have at least three mounting points on a transmission

if you dont , then expect to twist or break something

see a thread i wrote on the topic at ;

http://www.aeva.asn.au/forums/forum_posts.asp?TID=1023&KW=motor+mounts&PID=10684#10684

also, consider using anti-spalling grease on one of the splines , they shouldnt run dry or they will wear , and alot of people use a flexible coupling between motor and box , unless you believe that you got the shaft alignment within 0.002 inches.

without perfect alignment you can have alot of headaches with vibration or worn shaft splines.


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

Hey, welcome to the forum.

Currently I don't have a mount on the motor end (YET!!)

Hoping to get that worked out this weekend. The idea is to try with only one mount at the motor and if there is too much flexing, then I'll figure out a second mount for the motor to take up the extra torque.

Splines worked fine in both test runs without any funny noises or vibrations. I was planning to use grease on the final assembly. The smaller spline coupling on the transmission shaft is interference fit. The larger one has some slight slack but the larger shaft is 33mm on measured across in the valleys, 36 overall. I think it can take it if there is any slight error in location.

Soft coupling has its advantages, but it would have also increased the length of the motor/transmission assembly.


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## dtbaker (Jan 5, 2008)

Its a safe bet that there will be a LOT of wind up and movement unless you have solid triangle of mounts for the motor... There is a LOT of torque, and if it 'winds up' under torque it will be slamming into whatever is close by, and maybe ripping the other motor mounts apart in the process. Don't skimp on solid mounting with at least opposing mounts to prevent rotation under load.


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

Time for me to eat my words.

What I had in mind was to rely on one mount for the motor, and the 2 mounts on the tranny side. The transmission as one support mount underneath, and the torsion mount on top. Didn't work. Just rocking the powertrain back and fourth by hand was enough to get a collision of the CV joint against the chassy. Hate to think what could happen if I ran the motor.

Took a lot of thinking and needed some help again, but got something that I am satisfied with. The motor has 2 rather stiff engine mounts instead of one off to the side. Its very rigid and you can actually feel a "torque bump" in the seat of the car when flooring it. The pulse from the motor gets transmitted strait through the engine mounts because they are so firm. No chance for anything comming loose now.


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## Dave Koller (Nov 15, 2008)

david85 said:


> Time for me to eat my words.
> 
> What I had in mind was to rely on one mount for the motor, and the 2 mounts on the tranny side. The transmission as one support mount underneath, and the torsion mount on top. Didn't work. Just rocking the powertrain back and fourth by hand was enough to get a collision of the CV joint against the chassy. Hate to think what could happen if I ran the motor.
> 
> Took a lot of thinking and needed some help again, but got something that I am satisfied with. The motor has 2 rather stiff engine mounts instead of one off to the side. Its very rigid and you can actually feel a "torque bump" in the seat of the car when flooring it. The pulse from the motor gets transmitted strait through the engine mounts because they are so firm. No chance for anything comming loose now.



David don't know if this will help now but here is how I mounted my motor in my 99 Saturn SL2 .....


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## Dave Koller (Nov 15, 2008)

That was dumb of me as I remembered you have no rear engine mount place like ADC - but you have to cradle it and strap it some way - how did you do that? Or did you have a shot of that motor mount?


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

I'll post some more pictures as soon as I get the chance. Might be a couple days.


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## El Rayo (Mar 23, 2009)

I've got a comment on the connectors. Do you really need them? Each connector is a source for a possible fault, sometimes intermittent and difficult to trace.

I think connectors are a product for ease of assembly in mass production.

I use these heat shrink tubes to connect electrical wires permanently. They come in four sizes ranging from .3 - 6 square millimeters. In the center is a low melting point solder. The inside is coated with glue that makes the connection water proof. It works well on new wires. Old wires should be pre tinned for good contact.


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

They are only sensor wires, so I don't see a problem with having connectors (no significant amount of current). Whenever I modify or work on a vehicle I always pay attention to how easily serviced it is.

Since the sensor wires for the throttle go through the firewall of the car, I'd rather not have to break a permanent connection every time I have to remove the controller. Not that I hope to be in that situation very often, but I do want the car to remain easy to work in even if the worst case scenario ever happens.

There will be bolt connections for the main battery leads and the wires from the motor to the controller.

That heat shrink looks great though. The stuff I am using is simply a cheap 2:1 shrink ratio with glue lining the inside (no solder).


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

Here are some pictures of the motor mounts. They nearly killed me but now that its done, I'm very happy with how it turned out. The mounts are rock solid.

I later connected enough of the car wiring (12V systems) to get a reading off the speedometer, and well......RPM won't be a limiting factor. The speedometer can be burried in 5th gear. 2nd gear takes it up to about 70 KPH.

Have my doubts that the car will do 180kph that on the road but I have no idea how fast it will actuall go. Not gonna make any predictions


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

Ok, it might not look like it right now, but this is where the home stretch is within view. I have the car on stands and the engine cradle/forward chassis is removed for some cleanup and paint. That was really the only part of the car other than the rear door sills that has any noticable rust. As always, I will use a fluid undercoating inside all the enclosed tubes of the frame after its painted.


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## Dave Koller (Nov 15, 2008)

Yep looks ROCK solid!! Nice one --


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

Dave Koller said:


> Yep looks ROCK solid!! Nice one --


Thanks!

Its also completely aluminum so weight is insignificant. I'll get some better pictures after I have the motor on the hoist for the last time. Hope to finish painting everything tomorrow. Engine cradle is done and ready to go back in, now I just have to finish the motor painting.


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## gdirwin (Apr 7, 2009)

Just curious - why did you add the fan on the motor tail shaft? Is there any natural airflow through the front grill which could be directed over the motor for cooling?

Why did you go for a full frame the full length of the motor (as opposed to a mount just attached to the motor and mounted to the passenger side frame)? It looks like the motor is designed to sit flat on something and did not give you a lot of mounting options... Looks great!


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

gdirwin said:


> Just curious - why did you add the fan on the motor tail shaft? Is there any natural airflow through the front grill which could be directed over the motor for cooling?
> 
> Why did you go for a full frame the full length of the motor (as opposed to a mount just attached to the motor and mounted to the passenger side frame)? It looks like the motor is designed to sit flat on something and did not give you a lot of mounting options... Looks great!


Yes, it was intended to be mounted off the side of the case instead of the end.

I had to wrap the frame around the back of the motor because of the limited options for putting mounts in the car. Much of the area under the motor is wide open. Tying everything together also re enforces things nicely.

The fan came from factory, its visible now because the cover is removed for painting. If it wasn't for the fan, this motor would be quite small compared to the usual warP or ADC motors of choice.

Not much flow through the grill of the car anymore because of the 13 cell battery box that completely blocks off that area.


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## RKM (Jun 9, 2008)

David,

Nice progress! I presume that is a TEFC motor, thus the external cooling fan? That's one definite advantage over the Warp and ADC DC motors, no worry over water, dust and other road junk getting into the motor. Motor mount looks good also.

You've taken the path less traveled. Looking forward to seeing this one complete.

Rob


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

TEFC = totally enclosed, fan cooled?

However the motor does appear to be very well sealed and the main case is dipped in some sort of plastic coating then painted over (end housings do not have this). I think the idea was for added insulation but not sure. The end housings actually attach using a turned ridge all the way around that is a very tight fit.

This motor has no windings on the rotor, so only the stator needs cooling and that can be done all on the outside. I know one of the reasons for the internal cooling fan with brushed motors is simply to blow out the carbon dust from the brushes before it can cause an internal short (car starters are bad for this). You can blow as much air as you want on a brushed motor, but it won't last unless there is internal circulation as well.


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

Long day, but everything's back in (chassis, suspension, CV shafts, wheels and powertrain). Next will be some modding of the controller to reduce the size of the case. As a little bonus, we had some extreme weight wielding cable lying around thats probably about 5/8" of copper. Sever overkill for a brushless motor, but it comes free and there is enough for the whole project from what I can tell.

I settled on black for the motor. Same as the frame, although looking as this picture from under the car, it seems I missed a spot. Touch it up later. Anything is better then that pale green stuff (I know you were all thinking it!)


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

Uploaded another video. I wind it up a little in this one mainly for fun, but also to see what the shifting at higher throttle settings would be like. Seems to work well. Can't get over how cool it sounds inside the car.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sh3vYP1OlFc


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## gdirwin (Apr 7, 2009)

Looks (and sounds) Great! Videos are even better than pictures.... 

When will you go for a drive?


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## joshg678 (Jan 25, 2009)

Make sure you have a co pilot or a mount for the video camera when you do a road test.


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

I'm hoping for another week unless something else comes up. Still have to finish modifying the motor controller and mount it in the car, then I have to build/install the last battery box. Once the structural stuff is all installed, then I have to wire everything up (main cables, AND battery balancer harness).

Still waiting on some parts in the mail, but I hope to see them in another few days (vacuum brake stuff and DC/DC converter to run the 12V systems).

There will still be a ton of things left to do at that point, but the car can be driven under its own power even if just for a few miles. I'm certainly NOT going to miss pushing this car around!


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

MOTOR CONTROLLER IS IN!!!!!!!!!!!

I had to trim down the cooling fins and make a different cover for the cooling fans, but it was worth it. The controller is nicely tucked under the hood (instead of having to put it in the trunk), and it looks ok too. I would guess there will be less than a quarter inch clearance between the controller and the hood when its done. I managed to trim over an inch off the package size. With some imagination it could be converted to liquid cooling and eliminate the cooling fins completely. For all I know that is optional from the manufacturer.

Right now its only resting on the transmission bell housing and has a support on the other side. Once I have the final battery box made, the controller will bolt into that instead of having redundant bracketry for the two assemblies.


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## DIYguy (Sep 18, 2008)

Looking good David! Nice job on the cooling fan housing!

Gary


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

Wait till ya see the final battery box! I am so gonna rip this car up and down the driveway as soon as I can (who needs power brakes anyway?)


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

Final battery box 80% complete.

I threw in some close ups on the wields that I did. Anyone that is familiar with wielding sheet or auto body will recognize the method I am using. So far no warping. Its taken a while but I finally got the hang of wielding these boxes up. This is without a doubt the tightest box I built so far.


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

Now for how it will fit in the car. There is about 1" of clearance to the hood, but I might decide to take much of that up to make sure the box doesn't knock against the motor underneath. Lid still has to be made, and there is a small piece missing but since I ran out of steam I dropped it in and took some shots then came in to warm up.


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## electromet (Oct 20, 2009)

Nice and clean looking. Looks better than a factory job. Keep up the good work.

Mike


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## Dave Koller (Nov 15, 2008)

Nice and clean work David  ! I hope to get back on mine quick! 

Keep it up ---


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

Thanks guys.

Funny thing is I was just thinking about how this starting to look more like a factory conversion than a first timer's build. All I wanted was a clean setup when I started planning this. Maybe I went a little too far.

When its done, I'll probably take the hood off again and take a nice overhead view of the engine bay.
Looking at Frank Stronach's ford focus EV mule, they still took up space from the trunk.
http://images.google.ca/imgres?imgurl=http://image.automobilemag.com/f/green/ford-announces-aggressive-new-electric-vehicle-plan/16631403%2Bw750%2Bst0/ford-focus-ev-motor.jpg&imgrefurl=http://rumors.automobilemag.com/6416224/green/ford-announces-aggressive-new-electric-vehicle-plan/photo_02.html&usg=__KqmeMp-SNMz2j6dGJNG2LhB-HDs=&h=400&w=600&sz=57&hl=en&start=8&um=1&tbnid=kQ3Mb-hNd7TDmM:&tbnh=90&tbnw=135&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dfocus%2BEV%26hl%3Den%26sa%3DN%26um%3D1










Their battery is 23kwh, while mine is 30.7 (earlier 28.8 number I posted was incorrect) and I kept the cargo bay clear without ending up with a rear weight bias.

Magna claims the car will do 100 miles on 23kwh. Either they are being optimistic with range claims or my estimates are too low. I don't know the curb weight of the focus however.

*EDIT: well it looks like I have an edge with curb weight as well. Focus is right around 3400lbs. Mine "should" be 3000.......*

Hey Frank: can you fit snow boards AND luggage in your EV? cuzz I can! Mwuhahahahahahaah!!!!

Maybe I should hold off celebrating until I actually drive the darn thing
I think it will turn out good but you never know these things until they really happen.


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## RKM (Jun 9, 2008)

David,

The aluminum looks so nice, you've got me wishing I'd have gone with Al as well! You've put alot of time and effort into the custom boxes and it shows.

"_All I wanted was a clean setup when I started planning this. Maybe I went a little too far_."

Like most of us, I don't think you'll ever regret doing a really nice job. From my experience, the regret comes from cutting corners or rushing things. A quality DIY conversion is a great ambassador for the EV cause. Keep on showing up Frank and the other "professionals".

Rob


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## joshg678 (Jan 25, 2009)

Nice thing is if you ever need more batts, you could put a few where the gas tank was.
Unless you decide to put a generator in your trunk and use the fuel tank for that haha

Never ending mileage.


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

I am actually surprised there is so much room left in the car. Lots of potential left

Maybe I could even sell it once I prove that it works well and use that cash to fund the next build. We'll see.

Hey Rob,

I thought you were planning on using aluminum boxes as well? Think I remember even seeing a proper sheet metal break in your shop.


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## Vaughninms (Nov 10, 2009)

Behind the front bumper? Corners of the bumper? You are putting batteries here? Are you absolutely positive you won't be involved in a crash? Even if you are sitting still, someone could back into you, right? You might want to consider this before committing to an unsafe location.


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## electromet (Oct 20, 2009)

I'm sorry, but I don't see anything that's a safety hazard here. Everything is well back from the 5 mph impact bumpers and the crossmember they're attached to.

Mike


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

Welcome to the forum

Not behind the plastic bumper skin. And no, not behind the bumper corners either where there is nothing but the plastic for protection. I did breifly think about that, but I agree that would be unsafe, not to mention a pain in the neck to even fit.

It is behind the main frontal support of the car. Behind the structural bumper is where the front box is located. You can take a shot gun to these batteries and they might smoke a little but not much else. Its not the same kind as the dell computer fiasco and they have no significant amount of liquid to spill if they are ruptured.

In fact, I think the locations and tight clearances are very safe because the structure of the car wraps around every battery box so nothing can tear loose. The batteries and the space frame of the car complement each other.


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

And on that note, here is the final box nearly complete and in position

All thats left now is to build the brackets to hold it in place and knock some holes in the side for the wires. Wires have already been routed under the car to the rear main box as well. We won't talk about the BMS wiring harness yet......not looking forward to that.

Oh and there will be about 1/4" of clearance between the box and the controller. Yes, its tight but it fits


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## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

WOW David that all looks AWESOME,,, great work... I sent the DC to DC and vac switch yesturday let me know when it arrives,,, keep up the fantastic work WOW again!!!!!!!!!


Brian


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

Thanks Brian. I got Email confirmation from the shipper that its en route. Hope it arrives in time! (fingers and toes crossed)


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

Well I have some very bad news to report. The charger and balancer are for 3 phase power. We don't have 3 phase power in our shop.

kids, cover your ears.........

@$E(&^(*%#!!+#(!((^!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Not sure what to do. For now I can still charge the battery up 4 cells at a time using my 12.8V charger then drop everything in the car so it can at least be moved around in time for me to leave. Will take a few days but I do still have that much time. The car will stay parked until I get back.

Going to ask if there is anything the battery supplier can do but not hoping for much after all this time.

3 phase would have made for a faster recharge time (possibly as low as 3 hours I would guess), but still, we don't have it and a converter or 3 phase hook up are worth more than the charger. Several times more actually.


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## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

what kind of charger is it? Did it come from China with the batteries???

Brian


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

rctous said:


> what kind of charger is it? Did it come from China with the batteries???
> 
> Brian


Yup came with the battery.


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## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

david85 said:


> Yup came with the battery.


OUCH thats gonna be nasty,, look at Elcon if it comes down to getting a new one

Good luck


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

Its not the end of the world and I can buy another one but I really would hate to have to throw this one away at a complete loss. I'm waiting for a reply now that I explained that we don't have 3 phase power. 

I'd even settle for a partial trade in (send it back by sea or something) because their chargers seem to work great. The 12.8V sample charger was a really nice little setup. Dual voltage input and automatic 50/60hz compatibility.


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## joshg678 (Jan 25, 2009)

That sucks about the power, even though i don't even know what 3 phase power is exactly.

Are you going to need to cool the batteries or do they need to be cooled?


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## Jan (Oct 5, 2009)

david85 said:


> @$E(&^(*%#!!+#(!((^!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
> 
> 
> 3 phase would have made for a faster recharge time (possibly as low as 3 hours I would guess), but still, we don't have it and a converter or 3 phase hook up are worth more than the charger. Several times more actually.


David are you very very sure you don't have 3 phase? I am not sure at all, but I thought here in the Netherlands every house gets 3 phase delivered at the door. Most people only use 1 phase, but if you want it -for eletric cooking e.g.- it's easily installed. 

I'm very very interested in the results of your build, David85. I would love to know the power/rpm curve of this drivetrain. They don't seem to have that info in china. And I want to know the quality of it all. Before I buy anything there.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

You could try to resell it on Ebay or something. Someone must have access to 3 phase who needs a charger.


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

We phoned utility company just for the heck of it to find out how much a 3 phase hookup costs but at $10k-$15k as a ballpark estimate, thats out of the question. I don't think the 3 phase comes all the way to the house panel in north america. Only as far as the power pole at the street. To get it to the house, you have to bring the company out and then have an electrician install a separate panel in the house. Considering the out dated wiring in our old house, that would probably go over budget to get it up to code.

It is a very nice charger (although there is some case damage from shipping) but it can't take single phase. Not sure who would buy it because I can't even test it to verify that it works.

For now I will proceed with plan B which is to use the small charger to top up the battery 4 cells at a time (should be at about 70% charge right now). Probably looking at 2~3 days to finish that process. Then I can still afford a quick road test and then just park the car until I get back. One of many nice things about these batteries is the very low self discharge. Its possible that I may even be able to order a new charger while I am overseas, so I can hit the ground running when I get back assuming there isn't too much work piled up.

Jan, I know the feeling! All too well! I've taken some big risks with this project and its killing me not knowing how the car will perform. I may even buy single day insurance and get the car up to highway speed for a few miles before I leave. I would guess that wouldn't even take 10% from the battery to drive the route I have in mind.


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## Jimdear2 (Oct 12, 2008)

david85 said:


> We phoned utility company just for the heck of it to find out how much a 3 phase hookup costs but at $10k-$15k as a ballpark estimate, thats out of the question. I don't think the 3 phase comes all the way to the house panel in north america. Only as far as the power pole at the street. To get it to the house, you have to bring the company out and then have an electrician install a separate panel in the house. Considering the out dated wiring in our old house, that would probably go over budget to get it up to code.
> 
> It is a very nice charger (although there is some case damage from shipping) but it can't take single phase. Not sure who would buy it because I can't even test it to verify that it works.


Look into a 3 phase converter. There are two types motor/generator and electronic.

I dont know if the electronic would work on a battery charger but the motor/generator type would for sure. 

I think I've even seen some of them as military surplus.


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

Yeah looked at those too. The "static" converters won't work because they are basically just a motor starter. The Dynamic phase converters (motor/generator) would work but they tend to start at $8000USD. Haven't looked for used ones, but it might be.

However since the charger was only (haha "only"!) $1500, its probably not going to be worth doing that either. Its also one more piece of equipment to lug around if I have to lug the thing around.

Are there any electronics Gurus still here? I was toying with converting the thing internally from 3 phase to single phase. All the components seem to be exposed on the surface once the cover comes off (that was my first clue that it was indeed 3 phase). Could I maybe buy a different rectifier/diode setup to convert it over?

Won't do anything yet but if they won't take the charger back, I'm thinking it might be worth a try.


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## Dave Koller (Nov 15, 2008)

Bummer!!! 

Does it have a transformer input? If so what does the output look like inside - If you have that cover off can you shoot some pics of the inside layout


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## Jimdear2 (Oct 12, 2008)

david85 said:


> Yeah looked at those too. The "static" converters won't work because they are basically just a motor starter. The Dynamic phase converters (motor/generator) would work but they tend to start at $8000USD. Haven't looked for used ones, but it might be.


I've seen smaller Dynamic converters (guys put them in their garage) go for a couple of hundred. Check small machine shop going out of business auctions.

anything on eBay?

Have a great day


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## Dave Koller (Nov 15, 2008)

Is the front end connected direct to three phase like this? Cause if it is it is easy to redo to single phase...


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

Dave Koller said:


> Is the front end connected direct to three phase like this? Cause if it is it is easy to redo to single phase...


I think it is something like that. You can see each of the 3 phase wires going into their an individial 1" cube (Would these be diodes?), then from there each cube has a wire that goes to a rectifier (I think) that has a diagram on it, I hope you can see in the picture. Those black cubes are also soldered to that PC board, but I am not yet sure how it wires into the rest of the controller. It seems to be a fairly simple setup but I won't know until I get the board off and I should probably avoid tearing much further until I am sure the charger is a write off.

After the rectifier, there are 2 heavy wires. 1 black and 1 red and the diagram on the rectifier seems to show this as + and -. My guess is thats where the DC comes out and all of those components are right on the surface and easy to replace. Haven't checked the BMS yet. The camera blurred it a little so you can't see the neg and pos symbols, but the general diagram is still visible.

If I can install a single phase rectifier instead of the 3 phase, then I'm in business. What do you think Dave?

First picture shows the general layout of what I am talking about. Power comes in at the top, right hand corner. Yellow/Green is ground, no mystery for that one. Then there are the blue, red, and tan colored wires.


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

Jimdear2 said:


> I've seen smaller Dynamic converters (guys put them in their garage) go for a couple of hundred. Check small machine shop going out of business auctions.
> 
> anything on eBay?
> 
> Have a great day


Haven't checked Ebay yet, but I will, thanks. That gives me 3 plans of attack so far.

1; swap the charger (waiting for reply on that)
2; get single phase converter
3; rewire charger

Thanks guys, I can't tell you what a relief it is to be able to get this kind of help here.


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## Dave Koller (Nov 15, 2008)

That diode is a typical one found in three phase Bergy wind generators (made in china) could not see the amp rating but would guess 100 amp - read it for the amp rating and volt rate... let me know what the little label has on it on the side of the heat sinked diode pack..


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## Dave Koller (Nov 15, 2008)

ok inhanced your photo it looks like 100 amp 1800v -- right?

and the cubes? Some kind of auto-reset overload fuses on each phase?

and the transformer - does it get its power from the three phase or from the pulsating DC after it? It looks to power the processing board... It might be the tricky part!


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

Diode says "MDS 100A 1600V"

Transformer doesn't get power from there, its somewhere else. Have to look at it to see exactly where, but it does communicate with the controller board.


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## Dave Koller (Nov 15, 2008)

david85 said:


> Diode says "MDS 100A 1600V"
> 
> Transformer doesn't get power from there, its somewhere else. Have to look at it to see exactly where, but it does communicate with the controller board.


Might be using just one of the three phase - THAT would be nice..


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## azdeltawye (Dec 30, 2008)

david85 said:


> .........
> 
> If I can install a single phase rectifier instead of the 3 phase, then I'm in business................


You wouldn't need to replace the 3 phase rectifier with a single phase unit. Just hook up your single phase source to any two of the three wires. It doesn't matter which ones. Study the schematic Dave posted showing the hex rectifier. If you remove any one of the three windings on the three phase source it turns into a single phase source (this is only the case in three-wire systems without a neutral or ground reference).

The only problem with running this unit from a single phase source would be a dramatic increase in ripple voltage. This may prevent proper operation of the charger. To reduce the ripple to acceptable levels would require many more bulking capacitors.


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## Dave Koller (Nov 15, 2008)

azdeltawye said:


> You wouldn't need to replace the 3 phase rectifier with a single phase unit. Just hook up your single phase source to any two of the three wires. It doesn't matter which ones. Study the schematic Dave posted showing the hex rectifier. If you remove any one of the three windings on the three phase source it turns into a single phase source (this is only the case in three-wire systems without a neutral or ground reference).
> 
> The only problem with running this unit from a single phase source would be a dramatic increase in ripple voltage. This may prevent proper operation of the charger. To reduce the ripple to acceptable levels would require many more bulking capacitors.


Right on - any pair will give you a full wave bridge - with perhaps a bit more filter as you say !! -- but first I would like to know a bit more about that transformer - so we don't do something "unexpected to the control part! - and is that yellow wire the ground it looks like it goes to the shell on the transformer.. and that blue wire hmmmmmmm?


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

I googled some of the numbers on those black cubes and I think they are "NT90" relays.

Does that make any sense?? What would they be for?

Heard that you can sometimes get away with feeding single phase into a multiphase device, but I'm nervous about doing that after it blew the breaker in the house.......(in other words we did try)


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

Bingo, this is the part:


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

Dave Koller said:


> and is that yellow wire the ground it looks like it goes to the shell on the transformer.. and that blue wire hmmmmmmm?


Yes, the yellow and blue wires both ground to the transformer mount on the heat sink.


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## Dave Koller (Nov 15, 2008)

david85 said:


> I googled some of the numbers on those black cubes and I think they are "NT90" relays.
> 
> Does that make any sense?? What would they be for?
> 
> Heard that you can sometimes get away with feeding single phase into a multiphase device, but I'm nervous about doing that after it blew the breaker in the house.......(in other words we did try)


They might use them to control the phases used - it was another question about the three wires running off the control (greenish blue) thought they may go to the blocks that you now have established as relays...


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## Dave Koller (Nov 15, 2008)

the little blue wire from the transformer shell ground looks like that goes to an MOV (blue disk) from a leg of the 3 phase - curious...


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

Dave Koller said:


> the little blue wire from the trasnsformer shell ground looks like that goes to an MOV (blue disk) from a leg of the 3 phase - curious...


Correct, thats where it goes.

Give me a minute to check those green wires...


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

These the wires you referred to?

OK, they don't go to the relay blocks but to the lower compartment where its basically a collection of resistors. Hard to way what happens down there, but at a first glance it seems to bypass the relays and transformer completely.


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## Dave Koller (Nov 15, 2008)

david85 said:


> These the wires you referred to?
> 
> OK, they don't go to the relay blocks but to the lower compartment where its basically a collection of resistors. Hard to way what happens down there, but at a first glance it seems to bypass the relays and transformer completely.


 Ok there are 4 of them anyway lol - did not see the other one! 

There are markings on the transformer - maybe we can find that out -- the thing is the "blocks" (relays) may cut out phases to control input? You think it starts out heavy charge on 3 phase , lighter on 2 phase and float on 1 phase? errr Chinese thinking here!

If this is the case then not to worry about the transformer it must be on a phase by itself or ---- NOT!


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

I don't "think" they phase out the, uh, _phases_ as the charge progresses. It has to be dynamic for lithium. There are also some solder joints under them so there is probably other circuitry not yet visible. Might just try and take that capacitor board off and have a look.

0-80% charge is constant current (variable voltage)
80-99% is constant voltage and current gets scaled back. remaining ~1% is a combination of BMS and low current.

Looked at the numbers for the transformer. its all chinese except for a number which is in fact the phone number of the company in shanghai (no website).

I'm thinking maybe the transformer runs off of the 2 red wires on the back (go to the on/off switch). 2 wires in would have to imply singe phase.

Maybe the other wires that go into the connector for the control board are different voltage outputs???


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## Dave Koller (Nov 15, 2008)

david85 said:


> I don't "think" they phase out the, uh, _phases_ as the charge progresses. It has to be dynamic for lithium. There are also some solder joints under them so there is probably other circuitry not yet visible. Might just try and take that capacitor board off and have a look.
> 
> 0-80% charge is constant current (variable voltage)
> 80-99% is constant voltage and current gets scaled back. remaining ~1% is a combination of BMS and low current.
> ...


lol they have to be controlling those relays for some reason! aaaaaarggg manuals are nice to have and make for ALL products..... 

I would say they tap off different parts of ac for different board voltages... 
like 12, 9, 5 so on raw ac? or pulsed DC I think the terminals for the relay coils are under the relay and to the circuit board - SO the big question is WHY? Why would one want to cut any or all phases? 
Did you say you already tried to work it on 2 phase and it blew the breaker?


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

We tried on single phase 220 briefly and it was charging but something inside wasn't quite right. Cooling fan didn't come one and some parts inside got hot. No burn marks but it was hot. Then the breaker popped in the house after a few minutes.

Basically we tried connecting them in different combinations until the lights came on properly (no red fault light). That had 2 wires on one side and the 3rd on the other. Should I try to eliminate one of them and isolate it?


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## Jimdear2 (Oct 12, 2008)

I'm probably showing off my ignorance here, Remember I'm not an electrician.

I was told a loooooooooong time ago that single phase 220 was a combination of two 110 volt lines with a common neutral adding up to 220 volts. I seem to remember that 3 phase 220 was 3 lines each carrying a full 220 volts. Could it be that you are trying to run 220 volt components on 110 volts when you power 2 legs of the 3 phase circuit with 220 single phase?

Please don't laugh out loud if i'm wrong. You are allowed to snigger if you cover your mouth with you hand though.


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## Dave Koller (Nov 15, 2008)

david85 said:


> We tried on single phase 220 briefly and it was charging but something inside wasn't quite right. Cooling fan didn't come one and some parts inside got hot. No burn marks but it was hot. Then the breaker popped in the house after a few minutes.
> 
> Basically we tried connecting them in different combinations until the lights came on properly (no red fault light). That had 2 wires on one side and the 3rd on the other. Should I try to eliminate one of them and isolate it?



Did you have the ground connected? Or just the 220 across with no ground?


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

Jimdear2 said:


> I'm probably showing off my ignorance here, Remember I'm not an electrician.
> 
> I was told a loooooooooong time ago that single phase 220 was a combination of two 110 volt lines with a common neutral adding up to 220 volts. I seem to remember that 3 phase 220 was 3 lines each carrying a full 220 volts. Could it be that you are trying to run 220 volt components on 110 volts when you power 2 legs of the 3 phase circuit with 220 single phase?
> 
> Please don't laugh out loud if i'm wrong. You are allowed to snigger if you cover your mouth with you hand though.


Not gonna laugh, because you are correct.

Dave, yes, we had the ground connected too.


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## Dave Koller (Nov 15, 2008)

david85 said:


> Not gonna laugh, because you are correct.
> 
> Dave, yes, we had the ground connected too.


 So now we have to assume it senses the three phase ! Oh great...
as far as the diode goes it is really no problem BUT something else is picking up on the three phases - running 110 on a 220 device should not put out more of a short. But that fan you were talking about is it on one phase...
Is it a DC fan and controlled by that processor? 

I agree Jim, not even a snicker here!

Got a friend with a shop that has 3 phase? If you do maybe test a few things or throw some batteries on it and see what u have on some of those terminals..

I think the main problem is figure out the power supply for the controller board.. and those external relays? an after thought?


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## Dave Koller (Nov 15, 2008)

Look close at my diagram - then look at the one on your diode pack - it is not clear here - but doesn't the hookup look different? or is it just pixal smear?

That may not be a problem if you can see it right - but then it might be wired inside different for a reason.....


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

From what I can tell, the relays are switched on directly by the main switch but also are connected to the controller.

When it did work breifly, there was a delay of 1-2 seconds before you would hear a click after switching it on. I wonder if there is a precharge circuit similar to what motor controllers have to protect the capaciter bank. Could that be the purpose of the relays?? The motor controller in the car has a startup delay of about 7 seconds but those capaciters are way bigger so maybe thats why the difference in startup delay.

The fan is powered by 2 of the 3 phases direct off the connections of the rectifier. You sould be able to see the 2 light colored blue wires that go to the corner of the box. Those are the wires to the motor. Motor says 30w 220V 50hz on it so it has to be AC, but with only 2 wires it can't be 3 phase.


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

http://cgi.ebay.ca/3-Phase-Bridge-R...emQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item48383741d9

This one has the correct diagram for the rectifier.


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## Dave Koller (Nov 15, 2008)

david85 said:


> The fan is powered by 2 of the 3 phases direct off the connections of the rectifier. You sould be able to see the 2 light colored blue wires that go to the corner of the box. Those are the wires to the motor. Motor says 30w 220V 50hz on it so it has to be AC, but with only 2 wires it can't be 3 phase.


50 hz wonder what else is on 50 hz -- the fan may never run on 60 hz the time delay could be coming from the processor board wonder if it uses the 50 hz like a clock so 60 hz will be fast... what in particular got hot when you tested?
This may be another problem as you get into this farther (the 50 hz).. will 60 hz 3 phase even work if you had it - I would really try to find someone on 3 phase to even test it -- if eveything works BUT the fan that would not be much of a problem! This gets deeper as you go ... (and the fan may even run on 60 hz you could see by putting 220 to it .. ummm or it could hum and be fried - fuse it with small quick blow..)


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## Coulomb (Apr 22, 2009)

Dave Koller said:


> or pulsed DC


The transformer will *not* run on pulsed DC.



> I think the terminals for the relay coils are under the relay and to the circuit board - SO the big question is WHY? Why would one want to cut any or all phases?


It could be to turn off the charger at the end of charge. If so there will be a logic signal input somewhere that will turn off the charger. Or if there are power resistors associated with the relays, they could be shorting the pre-charge resistors when the caps are up to voltage (so the resistors would be across the contacts of the relays). With the 2 second delay mentioned earlier, this sounds like the case. In either case, all the relays would have their coils in parallel, so they act all at once.

If you end up running this off 220 VAC single phase, you will need a larger capacitor bank, so you might need to change the delay value so the larger caps will charge from the same resistors.



> Did you say you already tried to work it on 2 phase and it blew the breaker?


I assume you mean single phase here, or perhaps you mean 220 VAC (two actives either side of neutral). David: can you confirn: was the breaker blow happening from 110 or 220?

China uses 220 VAC mains, according to this Wikipedia page. They even use 220 VAC on American style parallel pin outlets! So I'd say that their three phase is 380 VAC phase to phase (220 multiplied by the square root of 3). So even feeding it with 220 V, the back end will have to run a fair bit harder than it was designed to.

You might get a clue from the capacitor voltages. Rectifying 220 VAC (single phase) will result in 220 * sqrt(2) ~= 311 VDC, so the capacitors would probably be 400 or 450 V working (to handle surges and higher mains voltage). Rectifying three phase 380 VAC will result in 537 VDC (380 * sqrt(2)), so the capacitors would have to be rated at 600 or more volts. Often such high voltages could be handled by a pair of 350 - 450 VDC capacitors in series, with resistors across the capacitors to both discharge them after use, and to balance the voltage across the pairs of capacitors. So: do the capacitors have 600+ volts rating, or appear to be pairs in series?

Another clue might be the voltage of the fan. It might have 220 or 400 stamped on it somewhere. Maybe Chinese mains is actually 220 VAC phase to phase, I don't know and couldn't find with a very quick search. If the fan is 220 VAC and is across a pair of phases, then this could possibly be the case.

However, you mentioned that the fan didn't work. So maybe it's a 220 V fan from a phase to neutral. IF the fan is the only thing connected to neutral, you could possibly run it from 220 V single phase by connecting two phase inputs to one active, and the neutral (input to the charger) and other phase input to the other active. Don't connect your centre-tapped neutral (from the 220 V supply) anywhere.

It could well be happy running like that (with extra smoothing capacitors, like at least double), even though designed to run off a higher DC voltage on the capacitors. The duty cycle on the PWM would just be a bit higher, is all.


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## Coulomb (Apr 22, 2009)

Dave Koller said:


> 50 hz wonder what else is on 50 hz


I doubt that the 50/60 Hz issue would matter at all. In fact, you can get away with 5/6 of the smoothing capacitance because you get a pulse of power to the caps every 8.3 ms in instead of every 10 ms.

The fan will (I think) actually rectify the mains and run invert it to variable speed AC to run the brushless DC motor, all in the little controller in the hub. So it should be happy with 220 VAC 60 Hz, if it is expecting 220 VAC 50 Hz.


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## Coulomb (Apr 22, 2009)

Coulomb said:


> Another clue might be the voltage of the fan. It might have 220 or 400 stamped on it somewhere. Maybe Chinese mains is actually 220 VAC phase to phase, I don't know and couldn't find with a very quick search.


Duh, I was trying to find the Wikipedia page on the various outlets, but it doesn't include 3-phase. It looks like China has 380 / 400 volts phase to phase (corresponding to 220 and 230 VAC single phase respectively).|

So almost certainly, that fan will be running from one phase to neutral.

As a point of interest, what sort of plug, if any, came with the charger on the 3-phase input cable?


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

No plug came with it at all. I think I mentioned to them that I would install a plug myself since I couldn't use the one that came with the 12.8V charger (that one also said 50hz on it and works fine on 60hz). To their defense, the 220V plug they did send with the small charger was correct for the newer canadian standards, our place just doesn't have any of them and we prefer to just use a wielder plug since we have plenty of outlets like that already.

When we tried the big charger and got it to work briefly, we use the same type of 3 prong wielder plug. So 2 prongs with 110V each and the neutral. I measured about 250V between the two hot prongs with my multimeter unloaded.

Think the capacitors said 450V on them. I put the case back on, but looking at a photo, I can just make out 450 on it.


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## lazydfarms (Nov 5, 2009)

The welder plug is definitely a practical solution to the problem...we use them around the farm to switch over our migs and what not that come with the other style of plugs. It saves a visit from the electrician too and the bills associated with that.

Thought I would tell you I appreciate your advise for getting into the EV world. Its saved me alot of headaches already so thank you!


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## Coulomb (Apr 22, 2009)

Looking again at the photo of the caps, they do seem to be in pairs (almost touching), and there is a single pair of large (4 W?) resistors apparently across the upper and lower halves.

So yes, it looks like there are three in parallel in series with the other 3 in parallel, with resistors across both triples. Sort of like buddy triples of cells or batteries. (Cunning - 2 large resistors is probably cheaper to install than 6 smaller ones). So that would make the combined capacitor bank 900 VDC, plenty of margin. If it was designed for single phase or for 220 V phase to phase 3-phase, they would likely have used 2-3 450 VDC caps instead of 6 in the series/parallel arrangement.


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## Dave Koller (Nov 15, 2008)

Coulomb said:


> I doubt that the 50/60 Hz issue would matter at all. In fact, you can get away with 5/6 of the smoothing capacitance because you get a pulse of power to the caps every 8.3 ms in instead of every 10 ms.
> 
> The fan will (I think) actually rectify the mains and run invert it to variable speed AC to run the brushless DC motor, all in the little controller in the hub. So it should be happy with 220 VAC 60 Hz, if it is expecting 220 VAC 50 Hz.


I am sure you are right - I was curious if they picked up the 50 cycle and was used for any clock type timing on the controller part... shouldn't matter..

Thought that would be an easy test to hook up the fan (by itself) to the 220 to see how that does..

I thought the relays might be used to control the phase and hence the output on the DC side... hard to say without having it in front of you.. Why do they not have a basic manual with schematic is beyond me. It can't be they are worried someone will "steal" the design.. I think David mentioned there was only one click when he got it going for that brief time. the heat may also be from no fan.. someone will come across the answer soon. I would be more concerned if the control part really needs 3 phase. Got to be someone with 3 phase nearby to just try it that way.


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## Dave Koller (Nov 15, 2008)

Coulomb said:


> Looking again at the photo of the caps, they do seem to be in pairs (almost touching), and there is a single pair of large (4 W?) resistors apparently across the upper and lower halves.
> 
> So yes, it looks like there are three in parallel in series with the other 3 in parallel, with resistors across both triples. Sort of like buddy triples of cells or batteries. (Cunning - 2 large resistors is probably cheaper to install than 6 smaller ones). So that would make the combined capacitor bank 900 VDC, plenty of margin. If it was designed for single phase or for 220 V phase to phase 3-phase, they would likely have used 2-3 450 VDC caps instead of 6 in the series/parallel arrangement.


In 83 at Luna Park in Melbourne - the only problem I had with 50 cycle was the tape players on the Western shooting gallery LOL - they put in a huge 50 to 60 cycle inverter/converter to make it all easy for us yanks!

did the same in China... 

I think you are right on the cap banks-- Might be set to that and bypassing might not bring it up.. still think they use the three relays for various charge needs - if all three relays are in parallel then that throws that theory out. First click should be one phase if they are controlled.. as you say they are cunning - so only they know! 

Hard to reverse engineer from words and a few pictures..


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

Some of the shops around here know what I am up to and seem to be supportive of the project. Maybe I could convince one of them to let me use some power. Shouldn't take more than a 10 minutes or so to know if it really works. The BMS module is completely separate so it will run without the balancer harness installed.

I KNOW my car would manage a quick run across town for a charge test and then back without any harm done if it had to still sit for a while afterward. (Campbell River is about 15 miles across at the widest point LOL).

I was wondering about the fan too. Generally if something is really wrong with how an electronic device is hooked up they tend to simple burn up after a few seconds and let out the magic smoke, not gradually get hot after a few minutes. The added heat probably led to the blown fuse too. We have 30 amp breakers, This charger has some power.


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## Dave Koller (Nov 15, 2008)

david85 said:


> Some of the shops around here know what I am up to and seem to be supportive of the project. Maybe I could convince one of them to let me use some power. Shouldn't take more than a 10 minutes or so to know if it really works. The BMS module is completely separate so it will run without the balancer harness installed.
> 
> I KNOW my car would manage a quick run across town for a charge test and then back without any harm done if it had to still sit for a while afterward. (Campbell River is about 15 miles across at the widest point LOL).
> 
> I was wondering about the fan too. Generally if something is really wrong with how an electronic device is hooked up they tend to simple burn up after a few seconds and let out the magic smoke, not gradually get hot after a few minutes. The added heat probably led to the blown fuse too. We have 30 amp breakers, This charger has some power.


That's the best bet for now cause if it works on someones three phase -it should be safe to do the way you first tried -- with a bit of rewire to the fan to move some air - sounds like they have it hefty enough - but without that air moving AND looking at that heat sink on the diodes - you need to move some air !! that it even charged for a bit is hopeful ! if it ran with no load for a bit is also a good sign you may not let the "magic smoke" out


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

Both chargers I have will not put out voltage at all until they are properly connected to the battery so a no load voltage test isn't possible. The fan would be easy enough to replace if I have to, and yes, there us a HUGE heat sink in there.

I wonder if it could be that simple.

It was connected for about 5 minutes and I watched as the battery voltage went from 160V to 165, some of that is probably going to be surface charge, but still thats some juice getting jambed in there.

Fingers crossed!!!!


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

Well I have just about half the battery pack topped up (4 cells at a time). Charging only takes about 10 minutes but the charger really nit picks with the balancing phase for a couple of hours. I'm hoping it won't take as long once they cycle a few times.

Now word yet from china on what can be done with the big charger. If I don't hear anything by sunday night (monday in china), I'll drop them another line.

Also finalizing the brakets for the battery box and controller. Fitting parts are only half the battle Had to push the firewall in a little.....you guys won't tell, will you?

Tempted to go back out for some more quality time tonight. I'm getting really itchy to drive this car and its so close to dropping the batteries in.


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## El Rayo (Mar 23, 2009)

Dave Koller said:


> 50 hz wonder what else is on 50 hz


50 Hz (= cycles per second) is used in Europe. The generators in the power plants over here runs a bit slower than yours.


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## El Rayo (Mar 23, 2009)

david85 said:


> I wonder if there is a precharge circuit similar to what motor controllers have to protect the capaciter bank. Could that be the purpose of the relays?


Probably. All high power electronic cirquits need a "soft start" cirquit in order not to blow the mains fuses. The "soft start" cirquit could be just a power resistor in series with the mains line (one for each phase). If you see a big resistor next to each relay and connected across the relay contacts, thats most certainly is it. When the internal voltage slowly comes up, the relay closes and full mains voltage is supplied directly.


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## El Rayo (Mar 23, 2009)

David, please stop your attempts at running a 3 phase device on a single phase, even if the voltage is correct. *Before* your house burns to the ground. You are working with a considerable amount of energy here!

The three phases take alternate turns doing the job. There is no way that even the Chinese would design the charger input cirquits so that they can handle triple of the rated power.


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## Coulomb (Apr 22, 2009)

El Rayo said:


> The three phases take alternate turns doing the job. There is no way that even the Chinese would design the charger input cirquits so that they can handle triple of the rated power.


Hmmm. It's true that 4 of the bridge diodes will see 1.73 times the RMS current that 6 diodes will see with 3-phase. So each individual diode will see 2.6 times as much current as it is designed for. Bridges often have a fair bit of spare peak current capacity, but it may not be enough. The total cooling requirements for the bridge will be 1.73 times higher.

I have successfully run a 3-phase AC motor controller on single phase mains before, but a controller can easily be made to draw low current (don't demand much power from the motor, e.g. run it unloaded). This charger will presumably attempt to run flat out until the end of the charge, unless you wind the output voltage right down (assuming it's adjustable), and then you might not have enough load.

So yes, David, do be careful.


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## Dave Koller (Nov 15, 2008)

El Rayo said:


> 50 Hz (= cycles per second) is used in Europe. The generators in the power plants over here runs a bit slower than yours.


Yes, I meant what else in the charger was using 50 Hz... In a small way I have been to many countries that use 50 Hz - it'll get you in just as much trouble as 60 Hz ! 

Like your bike Tom!


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

You guys have noooooooooo idea of some of the things I've gotten away with over the years House is still standing and many trained experts out there can't sleep tonight and have no idea why.

Haven't touched the charger since, if it makes you feel better.

I have recently learned that this series of charger is available in 110V and 220V versions, so maybe (MAYBE) I can find out if this can be safely modified to run on 220 single phase. Otherwise I might just have to buy another one. But if I do then this one becomes useless so I might still try hacking it up if I can figure out what makes it tick.

There is also some one with a commercial shop that has 3 phase power who offered to let me plug in there, so thats one possibility in my attempts to figure it out. Probably won't happen anytime soon though.

If I have to change internal components, then I would consider that too, but right now I don't have enough knowledge to pull it off (yet).


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## Jimdear2 (Oct 12, 2008)

David, 

A suggestion, since it is such an expensive piece, try selling it on eBay in Europe or elsewhere where 50 hrz 220 three phase is in use.

Even with export/import fees and shipping at least you will recover something towards the correct charger. 

If you go hacking you might destroy something too expensive to replace.


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

It seems this thread has been repped. I didn't even post driving proof yet

Jimdear2, as of right now, all options are on the table, Thanks I'll consider that too.




I've been having some intermittent problems with my controller if all this wasn't enough. The thing would turn on and sense motor position, but would not respond to the pedal input. I think I might have found out the problem though. With the car on stands, trans in neutral, I blocked the pedal to the floor and started testing the pedal sensor wires (seemed to be modulating correctly between 1-5VDC). The rain let up for long enough that I could hear the internal ticking and clicking of the electronics in the motor. As I was fiddling with some of the wires, the motor bumped. Eventually I narrowed down the general area where the sensor wires (motor sensor and pedal sensor) enter the case. Poked at them with a long insulated screw driver until some random clicking could be heard. Then bang! the motor started spinning normally near full RPM. Must be a loose contact or defective connector in that area. I chatted with Xiu in china last night about the problem (Last night I had no idea what was wrong) but it seems I was able to figure it out. Huge relief.

Suddenly I was faced with a dilema..........the battery is in the car and the weight seems to be well positioned............motor/controller are working again.........the rain tapered of to a drizzle

........oooooooh yeah........................

No power brakes or any 12V systems, but I drove it around the yard and up our barely legal steep gravel driveway. Floored it actually. Its not neck snapping or tire squealing, but it does move. Rain started to pick up again, so I wanted to keep it as dry as possible since there is still lots of work left. Will it reach highway speed? who knows...but it MOVES!!!!!!!

I crept it completely silent back into the shop and now I can't think strait so I left it there for a little while till the high wears off. Never driven anything like this before even though I've been dreaming of it for a few years now. I can't even describe the feeling. It will be nice to not have to push it around anymore.

Just checked my UPS tracking number for the goodies that Brain (rctous) sent me (DC/DC converter among other things) and they are in canadian customs at the moment. Could be another week for all I know.


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## Jan (Oct 5, 2009)

david85 said:


> ..till the high wears off.


I can almost smell it.


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## electromet (Oct 20, 2009)

David,

I thought I was seeing the aurora borealus, but I guess it's your grin. Congrats!

Mike


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## Dave Koller (Nov 15, 2008)

Most def an EV moment  !!!!


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

We just got back from driving it down to the end of the block and back. It was a wonderful feeling but I can tell its going to still need a lot of work. For one think there is a power cut out that happens if you stomp on it too much. It might be some sort of safety shut off. Motor and controller were still cool to the touch so I think they can put much more than I got so far. Cooling fans on the controller never came on.

Also, I think the spline coupler slipped on the shaft and is now riding against the transmission (there is a squeaking noise that started on the way home). I knew it was a risk, so I'll just have to deal with it. However even if the car simply stays parked for a few months, it can still be moved around as needed when I am gone. The battery will probably hold a near full charge for a year from what I've seen, so self discharge won't be an issue. Not even gasoline lasts that long

The torque curve seems to be completely flat all the way up to max RPM. Acceleration is nothing to write home about, but I wasn't really expecting much (only taken to 2nd gear so far). 1st gear start is recommended from what little I've seen so far. I have no idea how fast we went so far (no 12V systems and that includes the speedo) but I'm guessing 35-40 MPH. Would have gone faster, but it kept cutting out. Releasing the pedal seemed to reset it. Not sure regen is working either. Will have a few questions to ask.....


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## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

how many amps is the controller?


brian


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## gdirwin (Apr 7, 2009)

Congrats David!

I hope your cheeks don't get too sore from all that smiling...


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

Not sure what the controller is rated for, but I have a feeling that its much more than what its putting out right now. It is IGBT and uses 4 capacitors the size of red bull cans. All the high voltage traction conductors are either bolted on copper bars or heavy cable (none of that PC board crap). I think they might have been a little over cautious when they set it up. So far it runs completely cold and the motor barely gets warmer than the cold metal of the car. Not gonna compare to a zilla, but that was never my goal.

I already got "permission" to take the cover off and make notes of the LED lights on the control board. Based on that info they say they can verify that everything is working. Right now I am still not quite sure if the power cut out problem is some sort of safety limiter or if its a loose contact. The motor is officially rated at 20kw constant and 40kw peak but again, it could probably be pushed harder. The trick will be getting them to show me how heehee. On paper, 25 Hp should be just enough to hold highway speed....53 Hp..... now that should be enough for what I need if I could turn that into the constant rating.

The car was an absolute joy to drive so far. The weight distribution was good and it is drivable as is even if a little lower to the ground now. Kinda like it lower like that anyway. Up shifting is instant even with no clutch and its completely silent. You really need to strain to hear gear noise once rolling. Lack of power steering wasn't too bad either even with ~1700lbs on those front wheels. I could still drive with one hand if I wanted.


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## joshg678 (Jan 25, 2009)

Sweet dude, sounds like you must be a kid in the candy store!


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

david85 said:


> The car was an absolute joy to drive so far.


Wait, you mean we're actually supposed to drive these things, not just work on them    Congrats.


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## RKM (Jun 9, 2008)

JRP3 said:


> Wait, you mean we're actually supposed to drive these things, not just work on them    Congrats.


Love this line!

David,

It is a real morale boost to actually drive the thing versus pushing it around isn't it! Very happy for you.

You've done a great job from design through execution! Again, you've got me wishing I'd have gone with aluminum for the boxes (next time).

Good luck with debugging. It shouldn't be too long now before you post about your first 100 mile run!

Rob


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

100 mile? what are you talking about.....Oh righ!..... that! LOL Yeah that would be the reason its got 740lbs worth of plastic and lithium in there haha. So true about not having to push it around. What a relief!



> Wait, you mean we're actually supposed to drive these things, not just work on them    Congrats.


Why do you think I was in such shock? I agree with Rob, that line is priceless.

Think I found the problem. There is a quick connect just inside the case that isn't working very well. I ran the controller with the cover off and depending on how I held that connector it would cut off one or all of the phases to the motor. This caused it to run like there was a dead cylinder (for lack of better words) or simply shut off all together. Its so sensitive that I'm tempted to think that this might have been what was cutting power out when we drove it.

The LED lights she told me about seem to be pretty self explanatory. 3 red LEDs right next to each other are used to show position sensing, so those turn on and off in sequence as you roll the motor over (powered or just by hand- cool!). 2 green lights have to come on, and then there are 4 more red ones that seem to come on if there is any kind of a fault in the works. Each one is probably for its own fault code.

I'm trying to figure out how to Email them the video, but I know the solution would be to simply splice out that connector and maybe a few other ones just to be on the safe side. So far I have identified at least two that are not holding contact very well and either one would cause a no drive situation. Should be an easy fix.


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## El Rayo (Mar 23, 2009)

Congratulations, Dave!
I learned a lot by following your thread.


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

Well I bypassed the offending connector and so far it has not failed to start up since then. Its been strictly on/off on cue ever since. However the high power cut out is still happening and it could be a "safety" feature. I will have to ask about it. The car moves fairly well up until it cuts power. Then you have to release the pedal all the way for about a full second and you can apply power again. Stomp too hard and it bumps once then cuts out right away. Apply the power slowly and then it moves again. Controller and motor are still both running cold so if it is a safety feature it will be bypassed with or without their help (actually I have a feeling the power settings they limited the thing to is far lower than it can safely put out but I still need to learn a little more before I decide to mod anything).

I have some real work to do however so I cleared the shop for tomorrow and the car will sleep outside tonight. However the evening lighting was pretty good so I took a few images for your viewing pleasure. After starring at it for a while I think the suspension will stay as is for now. I don't mind the slightly lower stance and it rides like an old buick with all the added weight. You folks figure its too low?

The cable routing is only temporary for now. Cells are only held in by gravity but they will be clamped down by the box lids and block wedges driven in to jamb them so they can't shift at all. For now you can get a good idea for where all the stuff is. Like I said, that forward bay is TIGHT!!!! Although there is still enough room left for the DC/DC converter (DAMN canada customs!!!!!!) and some other small goodies. Contactor, small relays and switches for the heater systems and other misc will be done next year. My time is nearly up.


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## electromet (Oct 20, 2009)

David,

Do you have a functioning tachometer? I don't know what gear you're using, but perhaps you're running up against an over-rev limiting device. My thought is that if use a more direct (1:1) gear, the motor might have a bigger load, thus perhaps lessening the possibility that it will cut out. I'm very new at this electrical stuff, but it's just a thought. Good luck.


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

El Rayo said:


> Congratulations, Dave!
> I learned a lot by following your thread.


Thanks, I learned a lot too!


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

electromet said:


> David,
> 
> Do you have a functioning tachometer? I don't know what gear you're using, but perhaps you're running up against an over-rev limiting device. My thought is that if use a more direct (1:1) gear, the motor might have a bigger load, thus perhaps lessening the possibility that it will cut out. I'm very new at this electrical stuff, but it's just a thought. Good luck.


The motor will not over rev since its brushless and RPM is controlled electronically. You can floor it in neutral or in gear and it will not pass the preset RPM. I've only taken it to 2nd gear so far, but flooring it up our driveway is already enough to cause the problem in 1st gear. Crawling up at a lower power setting is no problem.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Some of your cells seem to have fallen over, and can't get up


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

JRP3 said:


> Some of your cells seem to have fallen over, and can't get up


More like beaten into submission.


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## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

did ya get a package????????

Brian


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

Nope. Tracking says it arrived at canada customs 2 ($$&^%#&____) days ago.

As I said on the phone, they suck. Big time! Nothing you or I can do but wait.


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## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

Ya Canada Post really does suck,,, I know when I lived in Vancouver and Calgary I couldn't believe ya had to put your own mail in a mail box ya can't just put in in your own mail box,, and no Saturday mail?? Talk about lazy!!!!! And the time they just sit on it in customs totally stupid, heck man your not that far away, we send stuff to Pakistan and it gets there quicker,, oh well I knew I left the country for a reason,, must have been the postal system LOL.

Brian


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

Honestly I got better service from china, europe, and australia. Customs cleared all of them much faster in all cases. Heck they even cleared the battery shipment that was labeled "motorcycle engine parts". Have to tell them not to do that next time LOL! but it worked.

Its something about that 49th parallel. Maybe the total trade volume is higher there, I dunno. But something is defiantly wrong when it takes longer to ship something across the continent than half way around the world.

Maybe we just take canada/usa trade for granted.


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## Dave Koller (Nov 15, 2008)

This is all too good David!! Have you checked that "pedal" for a glitch?
I looked back - musta missed how it works - three wire pot or other? That machine should scream


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

Pedal seems to work correctly. 5V reference and I think its a 9000ohm pot. I'll have to dig out the old analog meter to really test it and verify that there are no dead spots in the travel.

Don't know if it will scream, but (here I go again) I am thinking the controller has been detuned and might try to modify it eventually. Can't help but wonder if I might be able to have my cake and eat it too. As it is, these batteries will not be working at all to push this car around. I will barely even pass the constant C rating with the carpet squeezed down under the pedal.

Even as it is now, it has some getup, but that power cut out is a kick in the teeth.


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## Jan (Oct 5, 2009)

david85 said:


> ... but that power cut out is a kick in the teeth.


David, You bought something like 25 or 30 kW nominal? That's what I remember. 

Accoording to their website the peak is double. So you have peak power for an unknown time of 50 kW. 

Acceleration costs a lot of power. Especially going up a steep drive way. I wouldn't be surprised if you use 40 or more kW so now and then. 

Maybe you bump into that unknown period of peak power time. That unknown period of peak power could be surprisingly short.

And there is another thing I find strange about their motors. The air cooled motors are lighter per nominal kW than the water cooled. Normally it's the otherway around. Because with water cooling nominal power can be much higher for much longer. 

But they don't seem to take that into account. Or there motors have another problem...?


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

Their website is not well organized. I wouldn't put too much stock in what you see there other than they have a wide range of options. Mine was made from scratch from what they said and they can do custom motors. However, you are correct that the peak power is generally twice the rated power.

Power is supposed to be 20kw constant and 40 peak. But if I find that its not enough then I may have to take "action". That power cut out has to stop though. Not just annoying but unsafe. I won't have it simply loosing all power in traffic like.


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## Jan (Oct 5, 2009)

david85 said:


> Their website is not well organized. I wouldn't put too much stock in what you see there other than they have a wide range of options. Mine was made from scratch from what they said and they can do custom motors. However, you are correct that the peak power is generally twice the rated power.
> 
> Power is supposed to be 20kw constant and 40 peak. But if I find that its not enough then I may have to take "action". That power cut out has to stop though. Not just annoying but unsafe. I won't have it simply loosing all power in traffic like.


20 kW is maybe enough to maintain a reasonable speed with your car design. But accelleration or climbing usualy needs a lot more. It seems to me their peak power time is very short. And the way they handle the cut back, is also not so very nice. I hope you can adjust that. And tell us how.

I know they're flexible, I tried how far I could get considering weight with a 45 kW nominal motor. Not so far as I hoped. Maybe you can show us that a lower rated motor can be poked a litle up towards its peak.


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

In theory, brushless motors are limited by heat more than anything else. Thats true for brushed motors too, but they also have brush arcing to contend with if you overpower them for brief periods. Since I know this motor and controller are still running cold whenever it cuts out, my feeling is it can put out a lot more than the current settings will allow.

I think I have a basic idea of how this controller operates to manage the current to the 3 phases. If I can trick it into seeing smaller current than is actually moving, then I can increase the power. That may, or may not however cure the cut out problem depending on how that feature is managed.

My guess right now is they use current sensors and processor to calculate how much amps can be put out over a given amount of time. I'll still have to verify this theory before I do anything, and that might not happen this year.


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## Dave Koller (Nov 15, 2008)

David - how many blades are on that fan? Reason is if it is 6 the same pickup I use for the tach may work direct to your dash tach -- 

http://www.saturn.offical.net/?q=node/304

or better

http://www.saturn.offical.net/node/326

 (had trouble getting this url on here!


Might help as a diagnostic tool... Can you get your video camera on those leds when all of this power outage occurs? Bungee it to look in there? 

I believe you said you had to leave soon ... So maybe you might not want to get into that one lol .....


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

The fan on the motor is plastic, so that wouldn't work. Maybe possible to have a metal clip on a few of the blades though (preferrably something that won't fly off). So six pulse/rev will plug direct into the dash tach? Or does it still require some sort of conversion chip?

Looking at my own pictures on page 12, post 119, it does seem to have a 6 blade fan.

The camera is small enough to be mounted under the hood......that would allow for a real world test while filming the controller in action.....hmm

Not sure if I can squeeze it in before I leave.


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## Dave Koller (Nov 15, 2008)

Yep - snip the white wire (to the tach direct) off the PCM ( bypass the PCM study the links I gave you..) use the pickup with 6 (yes six! ) pulses per rev ... and do a duct tape of the camera to the controller before you go !!! 

You headed down-under


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## Dave Koller (Nov 15, 2008)

Sorry all I could find on this computer was the mockup of my bracket but you get the idea - could put metal clips to the very inside (not so much centrifugal force  !)


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

Cool! its that simple? *Hey Brian, I hope you're taking notes here. *

Yes, I'm going to visit with a family member in queensland for a couple months.


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## Dave Koller (Nov 15, 2008)

david85 said:


> Yes, I'm going to visit with a family member in queensland for a couple months.


ahhhhhhhhhh _vegimite 

lol, been there - love the country! 


_


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## Coulomb (Apr 22, 2009)

david85 said:


> I think I have a basic idea of how this controller operates to manage the current to the 3 phases. If I can trick it into seeing smaller current than is actually moving, then I can increase the power. That may, or may not however cure the cut out problem depending on how that feature is managed.


Well, it's interesting that your motor is lower voltage (144 VDC?) than standard, so you need a controller with higher current than standard. I wonder if yours is the same current capability as the 320 VDC controllers; that would mean you won't get full power. In fact, less than half power.

Best case is they redesigned the silicon for you (maybe put more devices in parallel), but didn't redesign the current limiting part of the circuit. So it is capable of the power you need, but it getting choked way too early. But you'd think that they did a full (peak) load test for at least a few seconds before shipping, which should have pinpointed this problem.

I think you need to do some basic calculations of what the high power silicon is capable of, before attempting to get full current out of it. If they didn't supply the right controller for this lower voltage motor, then you'll just blow it up, and give them a perfect excuse to not replace it: the user (you) voided warranty by modifying and overloading the controller.

Unfortunately, that means opening it up and reading the part numbers on the business end, and looking up their specs. Remember that as a rule of thumb, you need about 100% overrating on the silicon, since their ratings are at 25°C, you need to allow for voltage and current spikes, and so on.


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

I've already opened it up at their request so I could observe the LEDs and report back, so opening the case won't be a problem.

When you say high power silicon, you are referring to the IGBTs? 

Those are bolted direct to the 1/2" aluminum heat sink plate with the terminals being screw in type and can be swapped out very easily. Most of the internals bolt together instead of soldering on one main board as we see with some other controllers. The current sensors are just behind the bolt on terminals for the U,V and W outputs. Those are also easy to reach and replace once the cover is off.

All the heavy parts that carry the current are screwed together. The capacitors have bolt on terminals and the contuctor leads are copper flat bar or heavy wire with an eye loop that is again bolted to complete a connection.

So am I correct in understanding how the current is regulated? Those current transducers are indeed the feedback signal that allows for closed loop current operation?

If nothing else I would love to know how it works even if I never modify anything. I need to know more about this stuff. I've rebuilt diesel engines, automatic transmissions and almost anything else ICE related. Doesn't seem right that I know so little about EVs and what makes them go.


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## Coulomb (Apr 22, 2009)

david85 said:


> When you say high power silicon, you are referring to the IGBTs?


Yes, I just wasn't sure if they used MOSFETs or IGBTs at that lower voltage.



> The current sensors are just behind the bolt on terminals for the U,V and W outputs. Those are also easy to reach and replace once the cover is off.
> 
> All the heavy parts that carry the current are screwed together. The capacitors have bolt on terminals and the contuctor leads are copper flat bar or heavy wire with an eye loop that is again bolted to complete a connection.
> 
> So am I correct in understanding how the current is regulated? Those current transducers are indeed the feedback signal that allows for closed loop current operation?


 Yes, I think you've got the general idea. In fact, Johny in Australia is doing much the same thing, except that he's upgrading a small controller to higher current with new IGBTs, and also needs to tweak the current feedback loop:

http://www.aeva.asn.au/forums/forum_posts.asp?TID=1588



> If nothing else I would love to know how it works even if I never modify anything. I need to know more about this stuff. I've rebuilt diesel engines, automatic transmissions and almost anything else ICE related. Doesn't seem right that I know so little about EVs and what makes them go.


Heh, excellent enquiring attitude!


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

Coulomb said:


> Yes, I just wasn't sure if they used MOSFETs or IGBTs at that lower voltage.
> 
> 
> Yes, I think you've got the general idea. In fact, Johny in Australia is doing much the same thing, except that he's upgrading a small controller to higher current with new IGBTs, and also needs to tweak the current feedback loop:
> ...


WooHoo! thanks!

Looks like its a recent thread. Might have to keep track of that.

So if I understand this correctly, I need to reduce the amount of signal that comes out of the transducer to trick the controller into putting out more current. Looks like Johny is going to switch transducers completely and then, use resistors to fine tune the signal.

Could it be as simple as just adding another resistor to each sensor?
Assuming the other parts can take the higher current, that is. Still don't have that pinned down yet.


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## Dave Koller (Nov 15, 2008)

Nice forum from down under Coulomb 
Some good threads!


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## Coulomb (Apr 22, 2009)

david85 said:


> Could it be as simple as just adding another resistor to each sensor?


Well, yes, it could, in the unlikely event that they gave you high current IGBTs and just forgot to also change the feedback circuit to make full use of that extra current.



> Assuming the other parts can take the higher current, that is.


Yes, a big assumption.


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

They intentionally limited the power of the setup because they had some concerns about overheating the motor. At least thats what they said. If there is an overheating problem due to the lower voltage than they are confortable with, I haven't noticed.

I think the IGBTs have the ratings right on them but I don't remember what they were.

Hmm, I guess I'm not sure how the feedback circuit works. I thought the current sensors were the feedback hence my conclusion that a slightly lower voltage from the sensor (via an extra resistor) would force the controller to compensate with more amps fpr the same pedal setting.

*EDIT: disregard that paragraph ^ because I misunderstood the previous post. Past my bed time*.

I wonder if this would push the safety shut off higher up in the power, or if it would simply cut out sooner......still have to figure out how that works too.


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## Dave Koller (Nov 15, 2008)

Am impressed with Coulomb's coverage of this great Aussie show (a bit off subject - but a nice insight into some great conversions)

http://www.aeva.asn.au/forums/forum_posts.asp?TID=1502&PID=18247#18247


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## Coulomb (Apr 22, 2009)

david85 said:


> Assuming the other parts can take the higher current, that is. Still don't have that pinned down yet.


I assume you realise, but I'll say it just in case, that one of the components that has to be suitably rated (besides the IGBTs of course) is the current sensor. If you need 110 mV output for the current you need, but its maximum output is 100 mV, then even when you get to cutoff current, it will never output a high enough signal, and so the circuit will not limit the current at all. (Those numbers may be off, but the point is, your current transducer may not be capable of outputting the larger signal that you need).

Disabling the current limit accidentally like that could be great, while it lasts ...


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

Coulomb said:


> I assume you realise, but I'll say it just in case, that one of the components that has to be suitably rated (besides the IGBTs of course) is the current sensor. If you need 110 mV output for the current you need, but its maximum output is 100 mV, then even when you get to cutoff current, it will never output a high enough signal, and so the circuit will not limit the current at all. (Those numbers may be off, but the point is, your current transducer may not be capable of outputting the larger signal that you need).
> 
> Disabling the current limit accidentally like that could be great, while it lasts ...


OK, I have officially been warned Reminds me of turning up the fuel screw on an old mechanical diesel. Can be fun but its risky if you don't have the extra air to burn it all (high EGTs among other things).

So what you're saying is the cutout function could be completely disabled by this hacking? Thats exactly what I'm looking for!!!! If I have to look for different current sensors, or play with resistors to get the right mv output, then that would be perfect. Eventually I will have temperature sensors directly from the controller to know when its running too hot. I would seriously consider getting bigger IGBTs and expanding the capaciter bank if needed to bring the rest of the controller up to snuff.

It might cost some coin and take some time, but it would not only be a great learning experience, but also might allow me to improve the performance of the car in a way I didn't think was possible. Suddenly planning another car seems pointless if (I know, big if) I can get this one to peel rubber. Its at least worth a try.


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## Dave Koller (Nov 15, 2008)

David
found that picture of the finished pickup for 90's Saturn Tachometers. Really simple.. 

I'll just post one here - but will put the rest on my "Getting rid of Saturn PCM" thread..


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

Cool, that does look simple enough that even I could do it


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## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

David you should easily be able to peel rubber, heck my system burns them off very well in second gear,,and thats wwith the voltage sagging down to about 110,, with your battery packs you should be able to maintain a great wheel spin. Now granted I have a very hopped up Logisystem controller now. No current limiting at all. She gets warm but keeps on going. Been fortunate enough to do some prototype testing for Jim! Shhhhhh don't tell any one LOL


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## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

ya must have gotten my package by now right???

Brian


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## dtbaker (Jan 5, 2008)

rctous said:


> ya must have gotten my package by now right???
> 
> Brian


sounds personal.....


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

No package yet. Still at canada customs. Feel free to phone CNN and tell them all about our wonderful border security personnel and how efficient they are. They need to be embarrassed once in a while.

In fairness, its getting close to the holiday season, and there is a large influx of counterfeit prescription drugs that they are dealing with right now. Guess theres a lot of canadian losers that are willing to put money down for fake viagra pills over the internet. What a wonderful world

Seriously, there was a major bust a few days ago that they went public with.

And no, it certainly won't peel rubber. Actually it doesn't even have enough to throw gravel right now. Like I said, its nothing to write home about. At least not yet. According to the specs, its only pulling about 275 amps peak, so yeah, its not neck snapping performance but range was my goal. I am giving serious consideration to rebuilding the controller into something that has a little more self respect and a little less manners. The motor runs cold so it can put out a lot more than right now. Brushless motors can saturate like anything else, but their peak can be crazy high depending on where you loose your nerve. Controller also runs cold, so that isn't working hard either.

No idea if I will be able to get to the 1000 amps peak that this battery can put out, but if I do, then thats well beyond what I could have ever hoped for. These cars from factory run out of RPM before they run out of power (over 120 MPH) even though they are only rated at 100Hp stock. 1000 amps is roughly 192 Hp, uh, yeah that should be enough to break traction, but its purely speculation that I will ever get anywhere near that.

Its about time I got into EV modding and not just the plain old turbo diesel modding that I am used to. I'm bad that way. Never could leave well enough alone.


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## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

dtbaker said:


> sounds personal.....


Thays funny!!!! (Now that I look at it) LMAO

Brian


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## El Rayo (Mar 23, 2009)

rctous said:


> David you should easily be able to peel rubber,


I agree. Comparing with my front wheel drive 2000 Th!nk City; 2070 lbs, 114 V battery, 17 kW continous 3 phase AC induction motor, single speed transmission, top speed limited to 56 MPH at 7600 motor RPM, controller limited to 230 A. Spins the tyre (no LSD) in the wet.

Documentation for the Siemens controllers can be downloaded for free http://www.metricmind.com/data/man_w.pdf
I would be surprised if other manufacturers have not read this document and implemented some of the safety features. As you can see the factory setting is very limiting.


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

El Rayo said:


> I agree. Comparing with my front wheel drive 2000 Th!nk City; 2070 lbs, 114 V battery, 17 kW continous 3 phase AC induction motor, single speed transmission, top speed limited to 56 MPH at 7600 motor RPM, controller limited to 230 A. Spins the tyre (no LSD) in the wet.
> 
> Documentation for the Siemens controllers can be downloaded for free http://www.metricmind.com/data/man_w.pdf
> I would be surprised if other manufacturers have not read this document and implemented some of the safety features. As you can see the factory setting is very limiting.


Thanks for your input. I'm always interested to hear how other EVs perform relative to their size/weight/power etc.

So you can do 56 MPH governed....how does it run at 55? Is it out of steam at that speed or does it feel like there is still something left?

You have a good 1000lb advantage on me at only 2070lbs. I've got slightly more rated power at 20kw constant but probably not enough to make up for that weight difference. I wonder what the wind drag is on the th!nk......

I've been able to confirm that I could probably push the amps of the controller up by about 25% and still be within safe limits. Not sure if it will handle 40kw constant but could probably do close to 28 which should be pretty good.


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## El Rayo (Mar 23, 2009)

david85 said:


> So you can do 56 MPH governed....how does it run at 55? Is it out of steam at that speed or does it feel like there is still something left?


The Siemens Simotion controller is set up to gradually limit power from about 50 MPH up, but feels like running out of steam at about 40 MPH. Still able to maintain 50 MPH going slightly up hill.



david85 said:


> You have a good 1000lb advantage on me at only 2070lbs. I've got slightly more rated power at 20kw constant but probably not enough to make up for that weight difference.


You've got the advantage of a multi speed transmission, though.



david85 said:


> I wonder what the wind drag is on the th!nk......


2000 Think is taller than most modern passenger cars at 1.563 meters/5 feet 2 because of a rather upright driving position, but narrow at 1.604 meters/5 feet 3.

From what I've found about wind drag the main deciding factor is frontal area which I don't have the data for.


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

Its here !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Brian's package arrived today. Well actually they just took one look at the house, dropped a notice in the mail box and left. I swear, canada post has got to be one of the worst shipping companies on the planet!!!!!!!

Picket it up at the post office and paid an additional $30 in fees. (some cocktail of taxes, shipping and brokerage, whatever makes for the highest amount)

*deep breath*

Ok, I might have enough time to get the DC/DC in and running. That means a drive even in the rain becomes possible and I might go as far as to get some day insurance to make some better videos.


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

El Rayo said:


> The Siemens Simotion controller is set up to gradually limit power from about 50 MPH up, but feels like running out of steam at about 40 MPH. Still able to maintain 50 MPH going slightly up hill.
> 
> 
> You've got the advantage of a multi speed transmission, though.
> ...


All good info, I love the technical performance part of EV discussions.

My car is the opposite. Low to the ground and probably a bit wider. Drag CD is probably around 0.3, but I'll have to look up the frontal cross section since CD is meaningless without it.


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

Woohoo! stole another drive in it. Signals are 2x speed because of the LEDs on the front (stupid "safety feature"). I'll get a proper flasher and the rest of the LEDs I need when I get back. So far they seem to work great though and are bright enough to replace the stock ones for 5% the power consumption.

The DC/DC converter seems to work great but my um.....switch (wielder slip in connector) now makes a decent spark when ever I connect the power. Its definately from the converter because I can disconnect it and the sparking goes away.

Cooling fan never came on either so I'm guessing that has a thermal switch for when its needed.

Based on the spark I saw, it will need its own relay when I get a proper setup in there, but everything seems to work fine. Even the Check engine light LMAO

Yes, I checked it alright -PERMANENTLY!!!! HA HA!


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## Dave Koller (Nov 15, 2008)

David
Where did you get your LED's ?
I will replace all of my "idiot" light's with them (as my processor uses them).. Everything but the Head Lights will be LED - and yes you need an electonic flasher for the low load !


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## Dave Koller (Nov 15, 2008)

The computer I was on will not let me edit aaaaaaarrrggggggg....
I wanted to say they make a resistor to load the circuit BUT that kinda defeats the purpose for us of low power.. bypass the safety circuit AND THEN install a solid state flasher! I saw a circuit for that somewhere and thought I saved it - I will look at home...... HAPPY T DAY !!!


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

I bought 2 LEDs locally at a shop called Lordco. They are mostly here in BC and don't have any shops in the states. They usually kick butt for service and prices

Paid a little more that I wanted, but I just wanted to test them to verify that they would be bright enough before I went out and bough a lot more than what those 2 bulbs were worth.

Now that I know they will be good enough, I will probably order everything else I need from these guys in the states since I heard good things from another forum:

http://www.superbrightleds.com/cgi-bin/store/index.cgi

The car already has a solid state flasher, but its designed to flash rapidly if a filament is out on any of the bulbs. Same deal on my dads 1993 GMC truck. My old 86 fords don't do that but still have solid state flashers. It seems to be a more recent "feature".

The website I posted does sell the correct flasher that will flash at one rate no matter what the load on it. Resistors would work, but kinda beat the purpose of using LEDs in the first place, efficiency.

They also have some DRL bulbs that I'm tempted to try. The way things are going now, we are probably not very far from being able to replace headlights with LEDs. Now that would be awesome!

I did some informal testing on my car and concluded that all the lights on at once probably accounts for a good 30 amps draw on the 12V battery. Thats nothing to scoff at. Another 15-20 for the blower fan, 20 for the rear window defogger and pretty soon your talking real drain.

Everything on at once was close to 60 amps. Couldn't believe it.

Thinking to pull that blower motor and install brushless computer fans instead


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## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

david85 said:


> Cooling fan never came on either so I'm guessing that has a thermal switch for when its needed.
> 
> B


yes it will only come on when necessary,,, yes there is some spark as I told you I do not have a 12 volt battery and I have a switch that turns on the DC to dc under the dash,, I bought a high dollar (8 bucks) high current DC switch and it worked once. I replaced it with a standard 120 vac light switch (cost .88 cents or so) and it hasn't failed me yet like 6 months later, I hear the spark but never welded itself yet. 

I see your drawing more current than ya thought huh? Good thing we went bigger huh???

Brian


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## Dave Koller (Nov 15, 2008)

See if this has anything for you on Led/flasher thing:
http://www.stu-offroad.com/electrical/led1/led-5.htm


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

rctous said:


> yes it will only come on when necessary,,, yes there is some spark as I told you I do not have a 12 volt battery and I have a switch that turns on the DC to dc under the dash,, I bought a high dollar (8 bucks) high current DC switch and it worked once. I replaced it with a standard 120 vac light switch (cost .88 cents or so) and it hasn't failed me yet like 6 months later, I hear the spark but never welded itself yet.
> 
> I see your drawing more current than ya thought huh? Good thing we went bigger huh???
> 
> Brian


Oh I knew those numbers before ordering and I fully intend to bring that 60 amps down to something like 40 tops, but since I don't want to use a large backup battery (if any), I don't regret going the next size up as you advised.

Yes, I remember now you warned me all about that issue. My CRS is acting up lately

So all is well in other words.


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

*To anyone following this thread and is interested in my BLDC setup I have some bad news. The controller nearly burned up during an evening test drive. I have traced the problem down to (yet another) loose connector. This time it was on one of the IGBT modules and we figure it resulted in arcing that started a downward spiral until smoke started being visible from under the hood.*

*For all I know, this could be why the car kept cutting out at higher power settings.*

*The car is fine, we are fine, and the controller should be salvagable even if I have to do it all myself.*

*I am going to still try and talk to the vendor to see if they are willing to do anyting.*

Really sucks because it was just starting to run well.


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## Jan (Oct 5, 2009)

#$%^*( !!


Yet another loose connector... Hope you find a solution for this one, and all other loose connectors before you test drive again. 

They are seriously dropping in my list of possible vendors. Only the fact that I have only 2 on my list, and they where already second makes the drop not so deep.


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## Coulomb (Apr 22, 2009)

Now, wouldn't it be nice to know if this is a QA issue, or just seriously bad transportation handling. The latter means with better packaging, this sort of problem should be able to be minimised in the future.

It's scary when you think of the trust you have when you connect a high powered controller to a high powered battery and a high powered motor. Then we (eventually) let our loved ones in the vehicle with this powder-keg under the hood.


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

The "connector" was a screw that bolts down one of the bus bars to the IGBT. All thats wrong is it wasn't tightened properly when the controller was assembled. Fixing that isn't hard and all the rest of them will be checked.

For all I know, this could be what was causing the high power cutout. Its very possible that the loose contact was producing enough resistance to either cause the current limiter to throw, or for the controller to detect an uneven current load between the 3 fields and again, cause a shut down.

I'm still not sure what direction I'll take on this yet, but basically its a toss up between replacing only the bare minimum and restore it to stock running order. Or, start upgrading right now.

Doing the bare minium involves replacing one IGBT, a small capacitor, snubber, and some wiring that had insulation burned off. Probably $300 worth of parts (retail).

Upgrading to larger IGBTs would cost much more but its tempting just the same.

Based on the numbers I have, the controller could probably safely deliver about 30kw constant with no changes of components. Larger IGBTs could push that to 40 or higher depending on how far I want to take it.

The motor ran at the same temperature as always. It warms up to a certain point and then just stays there. Still cool to the touch.

Damn, it ran so nice though. Sorry guys, it looks like I won't be able to make videos until sometime in early 2010


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

Coulomb said:


> Now, wouldn't it be nice to know if this is a QA issue, or just seriously bad transportation handling. The latter means with better packaging, this sort of problem should be able to be minimised in the future.
> 
> It's scary when you think of the trust you have when you connect a high powered controller to a high powered battery and a high powered motor. Then we (eventually) let our loved ones in the vehicle with this powder-keg under the hood.


Truth be told, it doesn't even matter. I've come to the conclusion that no matter what you buy, no matter where you buy it, you have to go through it with a fine tooth comb before trusting it. If I had paid a little more attention I could have probably found this before it happened.

I got off lucky compared to some of the other controller fires that happened out there.

The main contacter still comes on and the controller board still seemd to be running properly. For all I know it might even still work enough to limp around.


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## 80N541 (Jan 11, 2009)

bad news

fell sorry to here that

is there a guarantee on it?


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## tomofreno (Mar 3, 2009)

What a disappointment! Some consolation in that you may be able to repair it yourself. That highlights an issue with purchasing overseas - warranty/support. If the supplier is helpful, there is still a long wait to ship it back and forth, and if they are not, its easy to ignore you.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Damn, that's too bad  Must be mighty frustrating to be so close. I don't know if I'd try upgrading it just yet. I mean you haven't yet gotten full power out of it, might be better to get it running properly at stock power levels first.


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## Voltswagen (Nov 13, 2008)

David
Sorry to hear of your near disaster.
Whose controller & motor are you using?
Your garage page only says 'brushless' - no brand.


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

This is who I purchased it from:

http://www.tsxdl.cn/eindex.asp


They are probably already within their rights to void the warranty because I modified the case of the controller. That played no role in the fire, but I'm just saying I am not hoping for much.

I did send an Email to them last night with photos and explained the carnage just as a matter of principle. We'll see if they even reply.

Right now I am looking for a supplier for IGBTs. Found several so far, naturally nothing in canada though. Probably have to make an order from a supplier in asia. Thankfully, all the parts are available off the shelf and they all have numbers for easy idendification.

I still feel the controller is well "designed", but there are certainly problems with how it was assembled. If I were a little more spitefull, I'd be tempted to copy their design and sell my own version of it. I'll even tighten the screws down free of charge


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## Dave Koller (Nov 15, 2008)

Holy crap David! I think you found the problem - the hard way!! I just got in here and thought I would check out your thread - SOMEHOW I never got notice of this! Not fun!... I have not read all the comments yet... But 

Great we are all part of the thread to LEARN - but smoke is not the best way!! 

I will read on !!!!!


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## El Rayo (Mar 23, 2009)

david85 said:


> Now that I know they will be good enough, I will probably order everything else I need from these guys in the states since I heard good things from another forum:
> 
> http://www.superbrightleds.com/cgi-bin/store/index.cgi


SuperBrightLeds are good. I bought a couple of 1157-RLX3 tail/stop light LEDs from them. Replaced one bulb to compare with the 5W/15W filament type. There is hardly any difference in light intensity from directly behind, but the light pattern from the LED is narrower.

I don't think that replacing the turn signal bulbs and flasher is cost effective so I'll keep the filament ones.


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## El Rayo (Mar 23, 2009)

Sorry to read about the set back, David. Thanks to your quick reactions, the damage was minimal.


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

Thanks,

I've already found an off shore supplier to get replacement parts from. Just have to send the funds. Ordered 2 IGBTs to have a spare and 3 snubbers. Should arrive before I get back so I can hit the ground running.

LEDs are certainly not cost effective, but to use the words of a utuber and fellow canadian I contacted recently, its a case of "range greed". He said that in repsonce to why he didn't install a heater (and he drives it in the snow).

Funny guy. He's got a great series on Utube under "EV2 electric jeep"

I want this car to got faaaaaaaaaaaaar per charge Besides, it should be a one time investement considering how long they last. I don't know how your currency compares so it might be more expenisve for you. The canadian dollar is fairing well right now and is only about 5% weaker than the USD.

Also have plans to replace the blower fan with brushless computer fans. Although those are so cheap these days and I have several old computers and related parts.


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## joshg678 (Jan 25, 2009)

david85 said:


> Thanks,
> Also have plans to replace the blower fan with brushless computer fans. Although those are so cheap these days and I have several old computers and related parts.


I one time wanted a desk fan, so i made a cardboard cutout and hooked up 9 120mm computer fans in a cardboard box, it worked wonders, and was quiet on 10v.


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## BWH (Sep 26, 2008)

Sheesh that's rough. At least it sounds like you can repair it yourself.

When working with high voltage I guess you can't assume that even the top players will remember to screw everything down every time. 

One of the first components I received had a board and four loose screws bouncing around inside the case.


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

Wonder of wonders, something unexpected just happened. 

I got word that she finally replied to my Email that I sent with photos of the carnage in it. I haven't read it myself because I don't have the same account on my laptop here in austrailia but from what I was told, she was away and couldn't reply sooner, hence the delay. Apparently, she is offering to repair the controller if I send it back and the engineer can examine it. Probably not going to happen, but I am encouraged to know they are still speaking to me. First thing I will do is get that forwarded so I can read the full Email and then examine my options.

Shipping the controller there and back is probably not going to be practical, but if they would send the parts to repair it or possibly pay for them and then I can install them, I would be satisfied and it would cost less for both parties. I wonder if they would agree to such an arrangement.......


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## Jan (Oct 5, 2009)

Hope they're going to help you. If so, they will rise again on my very short list.


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## Dave Koller (Nov 15, 2008)

Some good luck - THEY should have offered to pay the way on that SLOW boat to China! 
In my business, I WILL pay to have a customer happy (their fault or not) as my reputation that brings back all my customers (errr ... old Chinese proverb?)...


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

Dave Koller said:


> Some good luck - THEY should have offered to pay the way on that SLOW boat to China!
> In my business, I WILL pay to have a customer happy (their fault or not) as my reputation that brings back all my customers (errr ... old Chinese proverb?)...


Well, like I said, I have to get my hands on that original Email to see what the wording is like and then take it from there. I will also get the Etrader chat on this laptop so I can contact her again. Honestly I had completely given up, but this is somewhat encouraging.....


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

Got the Email forwarded here and I replied. Will keep everyone posted...


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## joshg678 (Jan 25, 2009)

david85 said:


> Got the Email forwarded here and I replied. Will keep everyone posted...


THE SUSPENSE IS UNBEARABLE! hehe.

Its good to know they atleast acted like they might care, possibly because you could attempt to sue due to faulty equipment, it would be cheaper in the long run to replace the whole unit i would think.


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## Jan (Oct 5, 2009)

Still no news?


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

Jan said:


> Still no news?


no, actually. I'll drop her another line on monday if I don't hear anything.


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

I just finished chatting with her and it seems my Email wasn't found. There are several inboxes so it can get confusing. 

Long story short, she has offered to send replacement parts so I can repair the controller myself. I need to send for the part numbers from home in canada, and then forward them to her to make sure we are on the same page.

Looks like they are going to help though.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Good news. Hopefully they'll step up their quality control.


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

Meh, I knew it was a risk but so far it may still pay off.

I am giving serious thought to building my own motor and controller in the future, now that I know just how stupidly simple they really are.

Might even be able to make my car a tire roaster some day. Should be fun

I got the part numbers forwarded to me, now I just have to catch her when she is online again and send them.


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## Dave Koller (Nov 15, 2008)

david85 said:


> I am giving serious thought to building my own motor and controller in the future, now that I know just how stupidly simple they really are.


Open source it right here David it'll be fun!!


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## karlos (Jun 30, 2008)

I'm looking forward to you getting your conversion going and doing some long runs as I need a similar range to what you are hoping for so will be going for a similar size bat pack. Building your own motor? That sounds cool. I built my first and only one at school much to my teachers amazement. Quite an achievement if you get that done.


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

As I found out from one source, it is possible to have rare earth magnets made to custom order. I just need to find a suitable supplier. Some basic machining which we now have, makes it possible to build accurate parts like laminations or end housings for the motor case. Some motor simulation software might get on the wish list eventually.

Probably make a double wall case out of aluminum for water cooling from day one. Diddo for the controller. Heck I might just attempt a wheel motor while I'm at it. Guts are the same inside

At least thats how I think it could work Some day......
Thats still a long way off though since I still have so much homework left to do before attempting that. I doubt real work will leave my much time in the forseeable future.

Karlos, what range are you after?


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## karlos (Jun 30, 2008)

david85 said:


> As I found out from one source, it is possible to have rare earth magnets made to custom order. I just need to find a suitable supplier. Some basic machining which we now have, makes it possible to build accurate parts like laminations or end housings for the motor case. Some motor simulation software might get on the wish list eventually.
> 
> Probably make a double wall case out of aluminum for water cooling from day one. Diddo for the controller. Heck I might just attempt a wheel motor while I'm at it. Guts are the same inside
> 
> ...


Well I guess being able to get the magnets goes a long way to helping get the project going. Part of my trade is machining so will be interested to follow your progress. I have little skill in the software aspect. Cool if there is software out there. Wheel motors must have a great future if they can be light. I'm seriously looking at hub motors for a conversion I want to do but would probably use them as inboard motors directly driving the shafts.
I live 100 miles/160kms from a city I need to commute to so that is my target range. Foreseeably, at this time they are not set up for it but there are cafe's and garages on the way and I intend to approach one or two to hit them up about a short recharge. Quite exciting to be at the beginning of something new in that respect and I'm looking forward to the reactions I will get. But hey, it means just about any place can sell a charge up in the future, it will be good for their business as I could go through a cup or too of coffee while I wait and it won't be restricted to garages. 
As i don't have a donor yet, I have not done the exact numbers but I figure I will probably need a pack of at least 30kW. This weekend I intend to look at an Audi A3 4WD which should give me lots of options without being too heavy. Somebody warn me if they know of a good reason this will not make a good donor! But I'm pretty done with looking, 'she' did not want me to get a small sports car and besides, something like the MRS would not have the capacity for the weight of the batteries anyway. MX5, maybe but where will the dog go 'she' says. Good point.


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

Don't know anything about that car but whatever donor you consider, look up the curb weight and the and drag CD/frontal cross section. Just about anything made in the last 20 years will have those numbers on the web somewhere. Those stats will limit range more than anything else when you are racking up the highway kilometers. The difference between the curb weight and the GVWR will also give you a good idea of how much batteries the car can handle.

100 miles one way is ambitious, but with opportunity charging you could do it.......thats some commute! I often make a trip once a week like that, but its not to my work. My car should be able to do that, but I won't claim anything until its tested.

Truth be told, I could still fit a larger battery in my car with some imagination, so even more than 30kwh isn't hard to do if you can afford lithium. Then you have the new SE cells that claim 15% better storage for the same size/weight and you can probably get that range in one shot without having to go to 90~95% DOD every time.


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## karlos (Jun 30, 2008)

david85 said:


> Don't know anything about that car but whatever donor you consider, look up the curb weight and the and drag CD/frontal cross section. Just about anything made in the last 20 years will have those numbers on the web somewhere. Those stats will limit range more than anything else when you are racking up the highway kilometers. The difference between the curb weight and the GVWR will also give you a good idea of how much batteries the car can handle.
> 
> 100 miles one way is ambitious, but with opportunity charging you could do it.......thats some commute! I often make a trip once a week like that, but its not to my work. My car should be able to do that, but I won't claim anything until its tested.
> 
> Truth be told, I could still fit a larger battery in my car with some imagination, so even more than 30kwh isn't hard to do if you can afford lithium. Then you have the new SE cells that claim 15% better storage for the same size/weight and you can probably get that range in one shot without having to go to 90~95% DOD every time.


I misled you on that, although I will do the trip on a regular basis, it's not a daily commute, I get to work at home currently and probably my partner will use the car to commute, that will be a new experience, being jealous of someone doing a commute to work!
Thanks for all the advice, all stuff I've being trying to take into account.
I'll be using lithium for sure, probably SE but will take a good look at Headway before I decide. The big new 16amp/hr cells sound promising.


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

Yes, working at home is nice if you can pull it off. Too many reasons to even list

Although I'm still going to drive the hell out of my car when its done. I can just imagine the looks I would get when I show up to a jobsite driving it and a trunk full of tools


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## Jan (Oct 5, 2009)

David, I probalbly missed it in your thread, so excuse me for my lazyness. But, how does the Regen breaking work? Is it adjustable? And is it powerfull enough to let you use the brakes only in emergency situations?


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

Regen isn't doing much right now but there is something bringing the RPMs back down because clutchless shifting happens instantly. From what I've read about series wound motors like the warp or ADC, they can take up to 2 or 3 seconds to complete a shift without a clutch. Mine is probably 1/2 a second or less and thats maxing out RPM. Upshift earlier and it just pops into next gear without thinking about it. 

I can't be sure, but I think there was one moment when it did kick in comming up to a stop sign. I floated the gears to downshift and when I relieased the pedal, the car did nose dive a little and the electronic "squeak" of the controller was audible. I'm guessing that was a regen event, but it only happened once so far. Although floating gears like that only happend once as well. Lucky for me its not too hard to do with this car.

Not sure, but there might be an RPM thresh hold above which the regen happens much stronger. Or it could just be that the loose connection was throwing things out of wack (higher RPM, means more current, which means more feedback to the controller, which means more reaction.....I think....). I don't mind if I have to touch the brakes gently for each stop if for no other reason then to keep them free of flash rust. Just want it to be the regen doing most of the work.

At this point I will put it back together and see what happens. If I am not happy with the regen, then I'll deal with it then.

My car is probably 80% complete, but I have a feeling I'm just getting started with it now


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## Jan (Oct 5, 2009)

Thanks David,

There is no adjustable regen possibility? You can only increase it by shifting back. That's a pity. 

Like every project: 80% of the work sits in the last 20%.


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

I honestly don't know. All I can do right now is repair it and take it from there. Eventually I will probably figure out a way of either reprogramming it or tricking it into giving more regen if the repair doesn't give me more stopping power.


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## Jan (Oct 5, 2009)

david85 said:


> I honestly don't know. All I can do right now is repair it and take it from there. Eventually I will probably figure out a way of either reprogramming it or tricking it into giving more regen if the repair doesn't give me more stopping power.


They're sending you the broken parts?


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

Jan said:


> They're sending you the broken parts?


They agreed to. Just have to wait for them to send them out now that I sent the part numbers last night to them.


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## Dave Koller (Nov 15, 2008)

See you are online ... Big snowstorm here in Midwest! Hope you hear soon on the parts!


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

Dave Koller said:


> See you are online ... Big snowstorm here in Midwest! Hope you hear soon on the parts!


Thanks
I heard from my parents in canada that its getting really cold (-20C) and that snow was on the way. Part of me wishes I was there.

Part of me never outgrew my love of the snow.


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## ehustinx (Dec 23, 2009)

El Rayo said:


> Have you investigated in the availability of the Siemens Simovert and Simotion inverters?
> http://www.metricmind.com/data/man_w.pdf
> There is even a forum dedicated to those only.
> http://www.automation.siemens.com/W...&SortOrder=Descending&ForumID=155&Language=en
> The Simotion inverter used in the 1999 - 2002 Th!nk City EV is rated up to 350V.


 
If anyone needs support on the Siemens Simovert 6SV1 and Simotion controllers, please contact me ([email protected]). I have tons of experiences with these controllers and can provide spare parts.

Best regards,

Eddy Hustinx
HEC
www.hec-drives.com


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## Dave Koller (Nov 15, 2008)

Happy Holidays David! And everyone Lurking!


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

*Well, final update on the controller issue.*

I'm on my own and will source all the parts I need myself.

Didn't hear anything for a while so I got in touch again and they came back again with sending it over to china to be fixed. I insisted on servicing it myself and they became harder to reach. They never said no, but when they won't respond anymore, you get the idea. I'd probably never see it again if I sent it back.

Based on all of this, I can't recommend them but I still gave them a chance and they failed anyway. Sorry guys, but this is a dead end.

If I ever build another car, I will probably just opt to build the motor and controller myself or not build one at all. Decent systems are too expensive, and affordable ones are not reliable or don't perform satisfactory.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

That's too bad, I thought they were going to hook you up. I wonder if you're dealing with different people who aren't communicating with each other?
As for the future, Tomofreno seems happy with his HPG/HPEVS AC50, and hopefully they'll come up with a more powerful controller to crank up the performance. I expect there will be more options down the road, the new Sevcon AC controllers look promising.


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

Despite my experience, these are promising times with so many new systems comming out now. However, they still have a little ways to go.

What would be nice is something that can deliver 100 Hp constant for a total package price of $5000 or less. You can buy such systems but not at that price (unless you know something I don't), but for that price I'm probably better off spending on parts and equipment to build it myself. I remember how much fun it was to rebuild and modify a diesel engine for a road going vehicle, so this could be interesting.

There are some domestic made "developer kits" - basically motor controller boards, that are designed to run the controller for $200 or less. Software tuning and diagnostic also come with them so that would be a fun project.

I suspect I'll have this controller open a few more times after its working again Now that I'm finding suppliers for IGBTs, capacitors and other components, I realized just how cheap they really could be.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

100hp constant seems like extreme overkill considering it takes what, maybe 20hp to maintain 65mph? I'd think 50hp constant and 150 peak a more realistic ballpark for a good performing EV.


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

All hypothetical right now anyway. I'm not ready to start building something yet.


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## Jan (Oct 5, 2009)

Hi David,

Thanks for sharing your (somewhat frustrating) experience with them. Hope you'll get things working properly soon.


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## tomofreno (Mar 3, 2009)

What makes you so confident you wouldn't see it again if you returned it for repair? They accommodated your request for a lower voltage and made a "special" for you. I would expect they would repair and return it to you. I expect most companies would insist on doing the repairs, rather than sending you parts.


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

tomofreno said:


> What makes you so confident you wouldn't see it again if you returned it for repair? They accommodated your request for a lower voltage and made a "special" for you. I would expect they would repair and return it to you. I expect most companies would insist on doing the repairs, rather than sending you parts.


After the money changed hands when I ordered it, they were very late in delivering it and I had to pester them much like I tried now. Weather or not they are deliberately trying to rip me off isn't really the question here, its weather or not I trust them to deliver on their service in a timely manner.

My experience so far has shown that the answer to that question is no. Also, considering the mistakes that were made inside the controller right out of the box, who is to say, that it will be done right this time around? I would still have to dissassemble the controller myself and go through it with a fine tooth comb.

If you feel like placing your trust in them, than be my guest.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

I agree with David on this one. Considering the history, and build quality, I'd be hesitant to send it back to China for more of the same. I can also see why the company would want to do the repairs themselves, but I think it would be in their best interest to send him the parts at this point, but I guess that's not going to happen. You could point them to this thread, and let them know that thousands of potential customers could see this, though at this stage I don't know if anyone would deal with them. I wouldn't.


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

A few updates to report.

I'm back in canada now. Stayed awake for a good 40 hours including the flights, waiting in LAX (nearly missed my flight because of the stupid new security screening), YVR, and a wonderful supper that was waiting for me when I got home. Slept for a solid 13~14 hours after that and I'm good to go now. Turns out I hate flying.

Well, I was able to locate an IGBT offshore and it was delivered the day before I got home. Now I'm trying to locate the snubbers I need. I contacted the manufacturer of the snubbers directly. Hope they reply. So far they sent an automated reply acknowledging my inquiry.

Turns out the heavy gauge wires I used for the traction pack do not have good enough insulation. I was getting some shocks once in a while and didn't know why. My Dad figure it out. He saw with his own eyes, a spark jump through the wire insulation to the aluminum battery box. Once he figured that out, he opened up all the boxes and made the required disconnections. I was in oz at the time he figured it out. I have since found out that using welding ground cable was not a good call and its only rated at around 24V (non leathal). I will probably need something rated in the 250V class.

Needless to say, those will have to be redone. Oh well, I shoulda known better but live and learn.

I only looked at the car but it seems the boxes are fine and kept everything dry during the wet winter. I had some CAD work (not EV related) to do as well as work on my truck, and eventually will be building railings this week so it might be a little while before I can get back to working on the car. Looks so sad just sitting there


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## Coulomb (Apr 22, 2009)

david85 said:


> Turns out the heavy gauge wires I used for the traction pack do not have good enough insulation. I was getting some shocks once in a while and didn't know why. My Dad figure it out. He saw with his own eyes, a spark jump through the wire insulation to the aluminum battery box. ... I have since found out that using welding ground cable was not a good call and its only rated at around 24V (non leathal).


Huh, I tend to think of any plastic insulation as good for at least 200 VDC; I thought even one layer of insulation tape is supposed to be good for 2kV or so, and surely welding wire insulation is at least that thick. Presumably, this was not with the car running, so it can't be inductive spikes.

Maybe it's to do with the insulation bending and microscopic cracking.

I wonder what sort of current those barely visible sparks carry, and whether they can cascade to much larger currents if ignored.

Good on your Dad for spotting it.


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

Coulomb said:


> Huh, I tend to think of any plastic insulation as good for at least 200 VDC; I thought even one layer of insulation tape is supposed to be good for 2kV or so, and surely welding wire insulation is at least that thick. Presumably, this was not with the car running, so it can't be inductive spikes.
> 
> Maybe it's to do with the insulation bending and microscopic cracking.
> 
> ...


I've been shocked by 12VDC in an open scratch on my hand a few times and this didn't feel much worse. I doubt much current was able to pass through.

I was worried about self discharging more than anything else because the car was sitting for a solid 2 months.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Coulomb said:


> Huh, I tend to think of any plastic insulation as good for at least 200 VDC; I thought even one layer of insulation tape is supposed to be good for 2kV or so, and surely welding wire insulation is at least that thick.


I'm confused by this as well. Where did you get the information that the insulation was only good for 24 volts? I've never heard of such a low rating.


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

Thats what ground cable for welders are rated for (as I found out).


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## Dave Koller (Nov 15, 2008)

Really surprises me also 

Welcome back - by the way!


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

Thanks, and BTW I found out what vegamite was though I didn't have the courage to try it.

Controller has the new IGBT installed and I also repaired the burned wires. Now I just need to locate some snubbers. Have a few leads I'm working on.

Not 100% positive about the 24V limit on the welding cable, but the cable is old and the rubber is not very thick. I don't know if plastic insulated wiring is less prone to "leaking" voltage.


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## Dave Koller (Nov 15, 2008)

david85 said:


> Thanks, and BTW I found out what vegamite was though I didn't have the courage to try it.
> 
> Controller has the new IGBT installed and I also repaired the burned wires. Now I just need to locate some snubbers. Have a few leads I'm working on.
> 
> Not 100% positive about the 24V limit on the welding cable, but the cable is old and the rubber is not very thick. I don't know if plastic insulated wiring is less prone to "leaking" voltage.


LOL on the Vegemite (looks like baby poop )... 

Slip some plastic wire sheathing over the cables for now... Or shrink tube - or like Coulomb says some insulation tape


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## Coulomb (Apr 22, 2009)

david85 said:


> Thanks, and BTW I found out what Vegemite was though I didn't have the courage to try it.


Woose! 



> Not 100% positive about the 24V limit on the welding cable, but the cable is old and the rubber is not very thick. I don't know if plastic insulated wiring is less prone to "leaking" voltage.


Oh, rubber....  Plastic is many times better, especially after a few decades. Any house that still has rubber insulation needs a complete rewire.


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

[email protected] Baby poop

Well I gess the mystery of the leaking spark is solved then. I talked to an electrician when I was in australia and he told me that as the rubber ages, it looses some of its insulative properties but didn't realize rubber is such a poor insulator compared to plastic. The thing with welding ground cable is that it needs to be durable, and flame resistant for many years, hence the used of rubber instead of plastic which would crack after a couple years. Plastic chords are also a chore to try and coil up.

We do have some heat shrink tubing though. Maybe its worth a try to layer some of that up on the wires first at the spots which passs through holes in the metal boxes. If that works then perhaps I will use PVC pipes to route the wires under the car to insulate the open spans. I like the idea of protecting the wires under there anyway.

As a last resort, I can still just replace all the traction leads.


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

I am now in touch with the original manufacturer of the snubbers in my controller and he told me they can supply what I need. Was about to make an order, but they just left for vacation for the chinese new year. He tells me they will be back in the office on feb 23 *sigh*.

I suppose this will give me a chance to work on other things in the car assuming I even have time for that. Past experience tells me that a couple weeks will go by like nothing.

By any chance can anyone recommend a good upholstery cleaner that can remove mold stains? Car has been sitting in the rain for a little while and there was a leak a while back.

I really should get to work on a main contactor switch and heater too. Time permitting, that is. Work is piling up already.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

I don't know how many times I've heard people say the same thing when trying to deal with China: "Chinese New Year, can't get ________ till they get back" Can't imagine how many projects get delayed because of it 
I've used mild solution of bleach and water on mold in the past, put it on, let it sit for a bit, wash it off. Test on a small out of sight section first.


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

Well its not like we are any better when it comes to chistmas and our newyears.

Thanks, I'll add the bleach solution to the list of ideas. Past experience has taught me to always have a plan Z


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

I don't know, China seems to shut down for two weeks or so. Other than delays from system overload I've had few problems with US companies during any holiday. Unless you mean things shut down in Canada as well.


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## tomofreno (Mar 3, 2009)

I've found Folex will remove just about any stain in carpet. Found in the cleaning section in the grocery store. Says "Excellent for upholstery."


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

Problems I've noticed is mainly with shipping times. Realistically I should be able to get anything from anywhere in north america in 10 days or less. Anytime from november to january is basically a crap shoot because of how long it takes to get. I consider myself lucky if I see anything in 7 days even if its relatively close like california.

So far service from china is less than one week provided its something small that gets flown. The strange thing is stuff from china seems to clear customs much faster too. I'm at a loss to explain that other than perhapse security scares over the years. But as far as taking my money, I agree there doesn't seem to be a delay even in the holidays here on this continent.

You have no idea how lucky you are to live in a country with so many viable suppliers within your borders.

tomofreno,

I'll add Folex to the list. Thanks.


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

Small update to report. I finally had time to touch some of the bolts on the car yesterday. box #3 (mounted over the motor) had some drops of water right in the bottom of it, I have my finger pointing to the corner where the water is otherwise it simply wouldn't be visible on camera. Box #2 (mounted where the rad used to be) had nothing inside an was bone dry. This is the most exposed box in the car and rain can reach it when the wind is blowing. Box #1 (below trunk floor) had condensation collecting in the rear. Its ironic because this box is only exposed to the interior of the car and is sealed off from the outside. The rear window of the car as well as the trunk was covered in condensation from sitting for the last 3 months. No wonder there was so much mold inside.

It remains to be seen how the boxes will hold up when it comes to driving the car in the rain, but so far I think it held up to the BC coast winter rather well (rained sideways most of the time). Also checked the battery voltages and all are between 3.31~3.333 so thats fine too.

Was nice to work under the sun for a change so I didn't bring the car inside the shop at all. Everything is back in the car for now, but before the next test drive I will probably remove all the cells and charge them 4 at a time like last year to make sure they are all even. Just don't tell anyone that my lithium powered EV takes up to 8 days to rechargeLMAO


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## Dave Koller (Nov 15, 2008)

David 
My motor and plate (and transmission ) will FROST at times then melt to form condensation that drips from the motor - moist air hits the COLD metal and - well... My second shaft from the motor gets rust from all the moisture!! ( put clear coat on it and is fine now!) I needs a heated garage lol...


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

Does a small space heater aimed at my backside while working count for a heated shop?

I guess wasted heat form ICEs has some advantages. Then there's the natural undercoating effect from all the oil leaks


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## Dave Koller (Nov 15, 2008)

LOL -- very true David:

I think the secret is to Get the *Moisture* out of the garage...

The Temperature difference is our problem - they don't get this in the south desert ... Cold night metal - meets humid morning mist. Or in my case, 10 degree night meet 30 degree trapped ice moisture... grrrrrrrrrrr!


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

david85 said:


> I will probably remove all the cells and charge them 4 at a time like last year to make sure they are all even.


Does that mean you are charging them to the same finishing voltage? Because that would mean they are uneven at the bottom, which I'm still convinced is worse, or at least has the potential to be. I'm working on bottom balancing all my cells.


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

JRP3 said:


> Does that mean you are charging them to the same finishing voltage? Because that would mean they are uneven at the bottom, which I'm still convinced is worse, or at least has the potential to be. I'm working on bottom balancing all my cells.


You've asked a big question there, so I'm going to be as thorough as possible in answering in case anyone else is following too.

I am top balancing them since thats how the charger is designed to work and I will see the top end much more often than the bottom end considering the large capacity of my battery. IMO, once you drop below 3V/cell you better be close to a plug anyway since the curve starts to fall off a cliff after that, 2.5V comes up rather quickly and once you are that close, amps start to drop off rapidly and loss of usable amounts of power is imminent. At least thats the conclusion I draw from my sample testing.

My general rules are as follows:
1) The Ideal operating range is between 3V and 3.6V (resting voltage typically falls smack in between that). 
2) From what I've seen Upper and lower limits during normal cycles can be considered 2.5-3.75V (reaching these these limits repeatedly might harm cycle life slightly) 
3) The damage zone starts outside of 2V-4.2V (I suspect these can damage capacity after only a few cycles). 
Operating temperature will also play a role since colder temps tend to limit capacity and lower voltage will be detected relative to SOC.


According to the brochure I have, the cells will fail instantly at roughly 10.5V per cell.......that sounds ridiculous until you consider the shape of the "S" curve cycle that is inherent of LiFePO4. Above 3.4V, internal resistance increases and voltage starts to increase exponentially. Thats why I think much of the worry over BMS for these cells is a little over blown. The usable part of the cycle is between 3V and 3.4V (between 3.45 and 3.6, the cell voltage and resistance already starts to be apparent, but this is how they normally operate), anything outside of that will result in rapid voltage rise - in the case of charging - or rapid voltage drop off at the bottom of the discharge cycle. Stay within the safe limits and the cells will remain stable and in close match unless you have a defective cell and no BMS can cure that. As I've said in earlier discussions, the limits recommended by my supplier work well and after repeated cycling, my cells tend to cycle closer together, not farther apart as some myths out their claim.

I realize not everyone agrees on what is ideal for LiFePO4 which is why I am not going to advise anyone else on what they should do. But for the time being, I am comfortable with the route I am taking.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

I agree that the key is to stay within the safe range of the cells, at the top and the bottom, and since as you say you have plenty of capacity and a charger that protects the cells at the top you should be fine. The only potential problem is you could have most of your cells above 3.0 but one or two below that and dropping fast under load. With your range potential that probably won't be an issue. Jack Rickard has certainly had good results without any sort of balancing in his Speedster.


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## tomofreno (Mar 3, 2009)

> The usable part of the cycle is between 3V and 3.4V (between 3.45 and 3.6, the cell voltage and resistance already starts to be apparent, but this is how they normally operate), anything outside of that will result in rapid voltage rise - in the case of charging - or rapid voltage drop off at the bottom of the discharge cycle.


 I generally agree, and I know JRP3 does too. I say generally because I am not sure of the actual voltages since I have Sky Energy cells, but yes, I stop charging shortly after the start of the exponential rise, and I don't go near the fall off at the low end. I have been running without a bms, but recently installed the minibms, HVC/LVC only, no shunts, for insurance. I started off matching cell voltages near the top, but then realized they can have several Ah difference in charge and still show almost the same rest voltage there due to the flatness of the curve. I changed to matching them down around 3.1xxV as I think I can see differences between them better there. I have one cell with a bit lower capacity than the rest, so that is the only one that gets to the exponential rise part of the curve during charging, and they all have similar voltage at the lower end. And I agree they seem to get closer in voltage over time. I've only had to balance cells when some were over-discharged, and when replacing some with new cells - but I've only been running them for about 1300 miles and about 3 months.


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

JRP3 said:


> I agree that the key is to stay within the safe range of the cells, at the top and the bottom, and since as you say you have plenty of capacity and a charger that protects the cells at the top you should be fine. The only potential problem is you could have most of your cells above 3.0 but one or two below that and dropping fast under load. With your range potential that probably won't be an issue. Jack Rickard has certainly had good results without any sort of balancing in his Speedster.


Time will tell I guess. We are all pioneers here

As you say, if there was some weak cell(s) that sag more then the rest when under heavier load, that could be a problem. But again I wonder how bad it would have to be to cause the cells to cycle apart, and if the cell will stand the test of a full service life if it can't keep up with the rest at moderate C. This all assumes that you are staying withing the ratings of the battery and not drawing peak C beyond the rated duration.

Although at 200 amps constant, the car should be able to accelerate fairly well. At a mere 275 amps, the controller and motor are maxed out in theory. Peak rating is 5C or 1000 amps for 15 seconds. I am thinking of modifying my controller for more power eventually but even then it won't be by much (thinking 25% or so). I don't think my battery will be worked very hard even if it only has a 1C constant rating.

This car will likely never see the peak rating of 5C........but I can still dream


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

tomofreno said:


> I generally agree, and I know JRP3 does too. I say generally because I am not sure of the actual voltages since I have Sky Energy cells, but yes, I stop charging shortly after the start of the exponential rise, and I don't go near the fall off at the low end. I have been running without a bms, but recently installed the minibms, HVC/LVC only, no shunts, for insurance. I started off matching cell voltages near the top, but then realized they can have several Ah difference in charge and still show almost the same rest voltage there due to the flatness of the curve. I changed to matching them down around 3.1xxV as I think I can see differences between them better there. I have one cell with a bit lower capacity than the rest, so that is the only one that gets to the exponential rise part of the curve during charging, and they all have similar voltage at the lower end. And I agree they seem to get closer in voltage over time. I've only had to balance cells when some were over-discharged, and when replacing some with new cells - but I've only been running them for about 1300 miles and about 3 months.


1300 miles? you basterd!

I only made it 2 or 3 at the most.

Intersting voltage you decided on for the balance reference point. Not really at the bottom end, but close to it. I wonder if using the median voltage is something worth looking at as time goes on.

What chargers are you guys using? Did any of your battery suppliers offer you a charger matched for the battery?


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

I'm using a Manzanita PFC30, set for a total pack voltage that will take my smallest cell to 3.45 volts or so. At least that's the plan as I have fewer miles than you do and haven't yet done a full charge 
I wanted a 120/230 volt 30 amp charger of known quality so I didn't really consider any other chargers.


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## tomofreno (Mar 3, 2009)

> Intersting voltage you decided on for the balance reference point. Not really at the bottom end, but close to it.


 Yeah, I'm too scared to go closer to the bottom.  I typically don't discharge cells past 3.2xx anyway.



> What chargers are you guys using? Did any of your battery suppliers offer you a charger matched for the battery?


 Manzanita PFC30, because I wanted an on board charger that could use both 240 and 120VAC, and charge at 30A (from 240VAC) or so to decrease charging time. I bought cells through evcomponents, so no offer of charger from the cell supplier. I have its voltage limit and timer set so it shuts off at 3.46 to 3.510V on the lowest capacity cell when charging at 30.0 to 30.5ADC. The voltage it shuts off at depends on the voltage limit and timer settings and the charging current magnitude. Took a while to tweek it in, and it still varies somewhat charge to charge, in the range above typically, I guess due to the above small variation in my setting of the charging current, and cell temperature. It will of course hit the voltage limit sooner when cells are colder, so it depends on whether I start charging just after returning from a drive when cell temperature is a bit higher, or after they are at the 60F setting on my cell heaters.


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

FINALLY an update on my car.

I was able to track down the factory that makes the exact snubber capacitors I needed to finish repairs on my controller. After some messages back and fourth, I explained my situation and sent photos of what I needed. Then they ageed to send me a small sample order including some spares. As usual, the wire transfer involved some confusion at the bank but I just got confirmation this morning that they recieved the funds and sent my order out. It should be here early next week via FEDEX. Really too bad the chinese don't like using paypal though. It really would save both parties a lot of headaches.

Anyway, fingers crossed!!!!!!!

I really miss the sound of that car


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## Dave Koller (Nov 15, 2008)

Pictures -- David --- pictures ----- I LIKE pictures ... want to see all that work.... LOL....


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

Dave Koller said:


> Pictures -- David --- pictures ----- I LIKE pictures ... want to see all that work.... LOL....


Of what? me standing in line at the bank?


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## Dave Koller (Nov 15, 2008)

..................Yep.


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

Well no pictures of me in the bank, but the package arrived this morning

6 of the 50uF snubbers and 6 of the 3 uF snubbers. 2 complete sets.

There seems to be a slight size difference between the older 50uF version and the new ones. No matter because I'll use all new ones to make sure they are matched perfectly. The tabs will simply bend over like was originally done when the controller was built. The smaller ones are completely identical to the originals.


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

Well guys its official.... the driver board is dead. Installed the snubbers and connected everything but nothing happened. After a few tests and experimenting, I figure there is an internal short somewhere right after power goes into the board itself.

This means that I'll be going to plan B sooner than I wanted to.

Can anyone recommend a good Driver board? LMAO!!

Actually, I've been spending a lot of time looking at developer's kits intended for BLDC motor prototyping. Sent off the first Email tonight to one potential supplier and more will follow in the coming days - and perhaps weeks.

I am of course disappointed because I still can't drive the car, but this way the controller will be tunable and this will also make it easier to build a more powerful setup later on. Maybe even enough power to peel some rubber. It will be a good learning experience in the end but getting the research started has been a little daunting.


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## Dave Koller (Nov 15, 2008)

http://ecomodder.com/forum/showthre...eap-3-phase-inverter-ac-controller-10839.html

You use anything there?


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## BWH (Sep 26, 2008)

Ugh, that's rough. 

Good luck with the rebuild! Hopefully the chance to learn about and build a better controller offsets the delay.


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

Dave, yes thats the idea. Although it seems they stopped making them so I still have to figure something out on my own.

Texas Instruments seems to have a nice line of kits too. Looks like something that can support an external power stage is what I need. That way I can reuse the current IGBT and capacitor banks.

Well with the high canadian dollar at least it won't cost as much

BWH, how is yours coming along?


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## BWH (Sep 26, 2008)

I'd be further along if we hadn't just had a record snowfall this winter. My shoulders are still killing me from all the shoveling. 

The batteries are re-strapped (Listen to me DIYers, figure out how long you need each cell set to be and have them strap it like that at the factory! It will save you a lot of hassle and bloody fingers ) and the mats are cut and sitting in the bottoms of the boxes. I'm not sure what insulation to use, I may just stuff old jeans in there for now until I figure out something else.

Now I'm picking up lugs, connectors, and plastic piping for the pass-throughs & cable runs. If all goes well I hope to have the boxes installed in the car by the end of the weekend.


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

I hear the east USA really got hammered with snow this year. We hardly got any on the west coast of canada this time around. Last 3 years before on the other hand......

Ok, some updates with my car....

Not ready to declare victory, but I might have regained some lost ground over the last couple days. I've been able to power up the controller but it won't quite roll the motor over all the way. I'm still relatively early in troubleshooting this part of the problem, but best I can figure is 2 of the 3 phases work properly, but the other 1 is causing a fault to be detected and force a shut down. Not easy figuring this stuff out without any manual for the controller LOL!

The hall sensors are returning signals for every position though, so thats not the problem.

I'll have to spend some more time tracing back the power from the IGBTs and see if I can find the problem. So close I can almost taste it. If in the right position and I floor it, the car has regained that nice torque bump that jolts the whole car.....even if its only for half a second.

I sense an EV grin shall stalk my back door tonight.


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## joshg678 (Jan 25, 2009)

david85 said:


> I hear the east USA really got hammered with snow this year. We hardly got any on the west coast of canada this time around. Last 3 years before on the other hand......


We got two storms with in two weeks both over 36 inches on my deck.

and of course i don't own a snow blower so my back was hurting.
Then last week we had a rain storm for about 3 days and caused lots of flooding.
Now its getting warmer and my grass is turning green again, wohoo!


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

Heehee, I had green grass since feb.

I ordered some IGBT drivers tonight on a hunch.... We'll see if I'm right when I install them.


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## BWH (Sep 26, 2008)

I'm glad that was rain and not another round of snow!

I think we may have green grass now, but you have to wash the mud off it to find out. 

When do you think the drivers will arrive? I'm hoping you get it all worked out soon.


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

Burning the 3 AM oil again are we?

The drivers chips were ordered state side so I'll probably see them in a week at the earliest. It really depends on how busy the canada border crossing is. As we know from an earlier order I placed with Brian (rctous), the wait time at the border can be over a week. Last tracking update has it in northern Kentucky. I check often

If it wasn't for work that we have to catch up with I would probably go stir crazy. I had a fairly vivid dream last night that I drove the car on a quick little test to about 70 MPH. Passed a few cars then the power cut out on a hill LOL! Even in my dreams I can't escape some problems.

Funny thing I noticed in troubleshooting the controller, is it will try and run with the current sensors disconnected. I unplugged them just to see if that would rule them out as the problem before I zeroed in on the gate drivers. I don't know if it would actually run without the current sensors [for a full rotation] or if they provide the feedback for the high current shut down, but it reminds me of when I unplugged the turbocharger wastegate on our diesel ranger. Oooooweeeee! did that little bugger move!

Definately something to be undertaken _CAREFULLY_ if I ever try that on a road test. I need to get some gauges anyway for pack current and voltage. heehee, kinda like boost pressure and EGTs.


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## BWH (Sep 26, 2008)

david85 said:


> Burning the 3 AM oil again are we?


Always. I really should try to get a micro-hydro or wind system set up to fix that. My occasional pestering has gotten my wife thinking about solar anyway. 

I suspect your dream is more daytime problems and forum reading (not much gets posted if things are going well ) coming through than prophecy. Even so, you are building an EV and rebuilding an AC controller. I think you can handle whatever pops up.

Too bad you don't live on the mainland. You could get a PO box in the states and just go over and pick the stuff up quicker.

You may have to unplug/trick the sensor if you boost the controller power with better components. Just be careful not to blow more stuff up so soon.


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

GAH!! its in Richmond, BC now! That didn't take long. No mention of canada customs either. Fingers crossed

Yeah I'm usually up late past 12am as well. Bad habit of mine but my head seems to work best when its late.

I've been thinking a little about the power upgrade some more last night and need to bounce this off some one that knows more than me. I might copy this on the aussie sight to get some feedback there too.

Being a 3 phase controller, the amps carried by each phase is I = X/sqrt(3). So my best guesstimate is the battery draw will peak at 275A @ 144~160VDC. So: 
275/sqrt(3) = 159A per IGBT.

Now each IGBT is rated at 400 amps. If I were to somehow bring the amps per IGBT/phase up to 200 I would get: 

200 * sqrt(3) = 346amps battery draw

346 * 144 = ~50kw That would give me a 20% boost in power over advertised rating.

I'm still not quite clear on how much of the current rating you are allowed to use when it comes to power IGBTs modules though. Some one mentioned that its only safe to use 50% of the rating. On the other hand the peak current for the Infineon FF400R06KE3 module is 800A for 1ms according to the spec sheet. I wonder if thats the safety net that allows full use of the 400A? Guessing no.

Anyway, 400A per phase works out as 693A battery draw. Assuming no loss thats 100kw @ 144V or 111kw @ 160V. In theory, the car should be able to hold highway speeds at even 20kw.

From what I can tell, there are 2 current feedback loops in the controller. There are the 3 sensors on each output phase, and then there is an integrated sensor on the control board itself. Since the output sensors didn't seem to affect much, I'm wondering if the one on the board is used for dynamic closed loop operation.

*EDIT: Never mind, I was waaaaaay off. The above calculations and assumptions are not true.*


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## Coulomb (Apr 22, 2009)

Maths corrected here:

http://www.aeva.asn.au/forums/forum_posts.asp?TID=1605&PID=23512#23512.


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## El Rayo (Mar 23, 2009)

david85 said:


> I'm still not quite clear on how much of the current rating you are allowed to use when it comes to power IGBTs modules though. Some one mentioned that its only safe to use 50% of the rating.


The max rating for electronic components are given at 25 degrees C. I agree with the general 50% rule-of-thumb as long as the cooling is adequate.

http://www.datasheetcatalog.org/datasheet/fairchild/HGTG20N120CND.pdf
Scroll down to fig. 1 in the above data sheet. This IGBT can tolerate 100 degrees at 50% of the max rated current. *If* your drivers can switch on and off fast enough.


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

Parts are here!

The truck drove up just as I was checking the mailbox.
Might get some time this evening to install the parts. Seem to be a prefect match on the surface.
Fingers crossed!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## BWH (Sep 26, 2008)

I see some late night soldering in your future.


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

Dude, you're not kidding!

I swapped 3 of the drivers and there was almost no change. The motor seemed to stall in a slightly different spot but still wouldn't turn over all the way (starting to sound like ICE problems LOL!) Readings that flagged the drivers before are now good but one gate power output to an IGBT is still not delivering voltage where there should be.

After that, I took some readings and got suspicious of a diode on the board that was dead in both directions. I found a diode from an old computer monitor board that "seemed" to be a close match when checked with a meter. Swapped it in. 

VROOM!!!!!!! (or wooom, or something like that) I was psyched.

But still not quite 100%. The motor will spin all day through out the RPM range, but can still stall if it stops in the right position. Its also shakes slightly when starting out with no load and shakes very bad when I try and move the car in gear (then dies).

Took some readings again for power going out to the IGBTs and instead of dead voltage on the bad circuit, the voltage wanders from below 0.5V up to about 5V then back down again in a regular cycle - not good. It should read steady 20V +/- 1.5V. Ok, that diode was NOT a good match (original is FR107, my used one was D801). Some googling confirms that there is a lot more to them than I thought. Man I suck at electronics

Each IGBT gate driver circuit has its own regulated, isolated power supply, and I think that is whats being thrown off and causing one of the 3 phases to be weak (causing the vibration and stall).

Going to tear apart some other old boards and computer crap we have lying around and see what I can find. Problem is most of the stuff is VERY outdated. *runs down to the basement........*


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## Dave Koller (Nov 15, 2008)

LOL you might be getting to the bottom of this ! See you are online er that's right it is early over there - I am soldering wire harness late!


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## Coulomb (Apr 22, 2009)

david85 said:


> I found a diode from an old computer monitor board that "seemed" to be a close match when checked with a meter.


You can't really compare diodes by their appearance. The FR107 is a 1A fast recovery diode. D801 sounds like the component number on the schematic, i.e. diode number 801 on this circuit, or more likely diode number one in this part of the circuit where all the part designators start with 800. You need to find a part number on the diode itself (yes, it might be tiny writing). [Edit: so D801 could have been any sort of diode. So numbers on the PCB are not what you want; you want numbers on the diode itself.]

Have a look in old power supplies; that's where you are likely to find fast recovery diodes. Next best would be in the horizontal driver part of a TV or monitor, near the high voltage section. Often fast recovery types will have "FR" written on them somewhere. Unfortunately, you can't really measure the recovery time with a multimeter. Also be aware that switching power supplies have some slow diodes as well as fast recovery ones.

If you have the equivalent of a Jaycar or Radio Shack store nearby, they'll probably have one for under a dollar. Diodes are such that if it's an ordinary diode (not zener or schottkey), then they really are likely to be equivalent if they look about the same size. Diodes that take larger current are always in larger packages; you can usually spot a 3A or 6A type by looking with a bit of experience. One amp devices are generally the smallest plastic package (really small ones are usually glass).


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

Have I mentioned I suck at electronics?

I have some old PC power supplies that I can canabalize. Have one right in front of me that starts with "SR". I'm guessing that means slow recovery......so much for that.

We do have the sister store chain of radio shack in town. Maybe I'll give them a try tomorrow. For some strange reason, they aren't open past 11:00PM. Think they would mind if I broke in and left a $5 bill on the counter if I found what I need?

Before I found your reply I tried another one that lasted for only a few seconds before even trying to run the motor. Even then, the output voltage to the IGBT still wasn't quite right (too low) but it was stable for that brief time. Oh well, at least I got to hear that motor spool again. I was begining to wonder.

As always, thanks Coulomb.


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## Coulomb (Apr 22, 2009)

david85 said:


> Have one right in front of me that starts with "SR". I'm guessing that means slow recovery......so much for that.


Not necessarily. It seems to be a marketing rule never to advertise the bad aspects of a product. So Araldite glue comes in "high strength" and "quick setting" varieties, even though it's quite valid to refer to these as "slow setting" and "low strength" respectively. So SR probably doesn't stand for Slow Recovery, it probably stands for Sansui Rectifiers or some such.

Most PC power supplies have a rather similar circuit. Near the main switching transformer, there will be some large diodes on heatsinks. These will actually be fast recovery, but they usually have 3 leads (two diodes back to back) and are physically large. Still, to get you going... they often have a diagram of the diodes, too, usually common cathode in the middle, and anodes on the ends.

But there is a 12 V logic supply that usually has a pair of 1A or so fast recovery diodes; these would be perfect for you. They may even be FR107s, it's a common "generic 1A fast recovery" part. Diodes vary in voltage rating, I didn't mention that last post, but it sounds like they don't need to block much voltage in your application, only 20 V or maybe 40 V. They will usually connect to same leads as one of the large rectifiers on a heatsink, and the cathodes will common and connect to about a 1000 uF electrolytic capacitor (tall cylinder with the capacitance and voltage written on it, and prominent + or - indications). 

So if you're game, look for these components and see if you can see a pair of components that look similar to the one you are replacing, or any black cylinder about 6mm long and 3mm diameter with a stripe at one end. There should be a pair of them near these other components; give one of them a go (test it first with a multimeter of course).


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## Coulomb (Apr 22, 2009)

david85 said:


> I have some old PC power supplies that I can cannibalize. Have one right in front of me ...


It's just occurred to me that the -5 V and -12 V outputs are an even easier place to find ~1A fast recovery diodes. The back end of a typical PC power supply looks like this:










The +5 and +12 V outputs are high current (8-30 A), so the diodes on those will be too big.

But the -5 V and -12 V outputs are just for driving RS232 signals and the like, and don't need to supply much current. It's hard to find a power diode that is rated at less than 1 amp, so these outputs are often rated at one amp. They're rarely used these days, and may not be present on more modern power supplies, but you mentioned that yours are good and old.

The -5 V and -12 V outputs will be well marked on the printed circuit board, and it should be easy to trace back through the various inductors to the diodes. Any of the diodes marked "D" in the above circuit should be suitable. As well as diodes not commonly having a rating of less than 1 amp, they commonly don't have a voltage rating of less than 100 V, which I believe will be plenty for your application.


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## jackbauer (Jan 12, 2008)

I have plenty of 1A 1000v fast diodes. If your stuck i'll throw a few in the mail.


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

Thanks jack, Its nice to know I have allies across the seas in both directions. Might take you up on that but I'm still making progress so I might not need them. But if I do need something and you have what I need, I'd be happy to pay you instead of some other supplier.

About that progress.
There are 3 diodes per gate driver (6 drivers in total), and I am now 96% sure that all of them are shot on this particular circuit. To check for proper operation I take 2 reference voltage readings from the 3 pin connector for the driver. One should read ~20V, the other combination should read ~8.4V.

Here's the play by play for today.

1) One of the diodes I bought in a 25 pack from a local store was rated at 1000V so I tried it. The voltage that should be 20V was reading zero. After the new diode it read 1.3V roughly.

2) Replaced the second diode with a *close* match from scrap boards we have lying around. This was a zener diode and now the voltage went to 20V - bingo!!!!!

3) Now the other reading should be 8.4V, but its 24 and change instead (I didn't try to run the motor). One last zener diode to replace and I confirmed its dead like the rest.....fingers crossed!!!!


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## Coulomb (Apr 22, 2009)

david85 said:


> 2) Replaced the second diode with a *close* match from scrap boards we have lying around. This was a zener diode and now the voltage went to 20V - bingo!!!!!


Err, so you're replacing zener with another zener of the same voltage, right? You've admitted to being less than completely proficient in electronics, so I'll just point out gently that zener diodes are mostly about the voltage that they (deliberately) "break down" at (it's a non-destructive process, despite the name). The other thing is that zener diodes come in a wider range of power levels: typically 300 mW (in a glass case like a small signal diode), 1W (sometimes a thicker glass case, sometimes like a 1A diode case), 3W (just bigger again), and up.

So if you have a 300 mW 20 V zener, you need to replace that with a 20 V zener of at least 300 mW rating (bigger cased zeners are OK, as long as they fit physically). You don't want to replace a 20 V zener with a 5.6 V zener, or a 30 V zener. You can find the breakdown voltage of a zener by measuring the voltage across it when you put it across a power supply with a resistor (1K to 10K or so) in series to limit the current. You can judge power dissipation by the size of the diode.

You can also tell the voltage from the part number, e.g. 1N4747 is a 20 V 1 W zener, and assume it still works. It will test as an ordinary diode using just a multimeter.

It's pretty unusual to be able to find just the right zener diode from used electronics; are you buying these from your Radio Shack equivalent store?


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

I found nothing for zeners at local stores (well, there is only on store). I'm SOL in that respect and if I can't find a match in junk lying around I'll be ordering new ones - which I may do anyway even if this works. The main idea here is to see if the dead phase can even work again since through out this ordeal, it hasn't fired at all. Right now the motor is running on 2 phases and momentum is carrying it past the dead phase.

The first zener I installed is rated at higher voltage and is physically a bit larger but seems to be working when I compare that part of the circuit to the others in the same situation on the main board.

The second zener I just tried will not work and is acting like a wall, so that didn't work. Normally there should be a voltage drop to 9V on one side but instead, its completely dead with 24V on the other side.

Looking at the specs for the second factory installed zener, it requires an even lower voltage than the first one I replaced and the replacement is still as high as what I used to restore the 20V line. I knew it was a long shot but I tried anyway.


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## Coulomb (Apr 22, 2009)

david85 said:


> I found nothing for zeners at local stores (well, there is only on store). I'm SOL in that respect and if I can't find a match in junk lying around I'll be ordering new ones - which I may do anyway even if this works.


Yes. It seems to me that you could replace all the parts around these MOSFET drivers for CA$10 or so, so why not order all of them from Digikey. That's assuming you can identify the components.



> The main idea here is to see if the dead phase can even work again since through out this ordeal, it hasn't fired at all.


Yes, fair enough.



> Right now the motor is running on 2 phases and momentum is carrying it past the dead phase.


Huh, interesting. If it was an induction motor, it would not work at all on two phases; there would be no rotating field, just a pulsating one in one position.



> The first zener I installed is rated at higher voltage and is physically a bit larger but seems to be working when I compare that part of the circuit to the others in the same situation on the main board.


This repair by random replacement seems a little risky on a controller capable of unleashing the fires of hell from a very powerful battery. I'd suggest you continue the plan of not attempting to turn the motor, at the very least.

I guess this is an advantage of three phase controllers (whether for induction or synchronous/BLDC motors): with three of almost everything, you can get a "majority vote" on what a normal voltage is


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

Coulomb said:


> Yes. It seems to me that you could replace all the parts around these MOSFET drivers for CA$10 or so, so why not order all of them from Digikey. That's assuming you can identify the components.


Thats basically the plan. However the plan keeps evolving as I find more components that have to be replaced. I'm thinking to investigate as much as I possibly can before placing the next order to make sure I have the spare parts I need just in case there are other parts that need to be replace that I haven't discovered yet.



Coulomb said:


> Huh, interesting. If it was an induction motor, it would not work at all on two phases; there would be no rotating field, just a pulsating one in one position.


Thats my best explanation so far. I don't yet understand why this seems to "function" in this type of failure mode. Maybe its the direct feedback of the sensors that keeps things rolling?



Coulomb said:


> This repair by random replacement seems a little risky on a controller capable of unleashing the fires of hell from a very powerful battery. I'd suggest you continue the plan of not attempting to turn the motor, at the very least.


Yup, you're right on that too and I did take a risk. To solve the problems that I can still identify (like the missing 8.4V), I don't even have to plug the IGBTs into the board. Powering up the board by itself is enough to do the testing. I also have an insulated connector under the hood where I am working. If all hell breaks loose I can still pull that. (gearbox stays in neutral). Although even when in the case of the fire that started all of this, nothing really went haywire after the pedal was released. I unplugged it and waited for a tow.



Coulomb said:


> I guess this is an advantage of three phase controllers (whether for induction or synchronous/BLDC motors): with three of almost everything, you can get a "majority vote" on what a normal voltage is


That right there has been one of the most useful tools so far in troubleshooting this thing. "solid state democracy"


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## etischer (Jun 16, 2008)

I've run my AC induction motor on 2 phases. It would be like a 3 cylinder engine running on 2 cylinders.


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

etischer said:


> I've run my AC induction motor on 2 phases. It would be like a 3 cylinder engine running on 2 cylinders.


Thats exactly what it reminds me of when mine does it.


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## Coulomb (Apr 22, 2009)

etischer said:


> I've run my AC induction motor on 2 phases. It would be like a 3 cylinder engine running on 2 cylinders.


Really? Wow.

I would think it would be a lot worse than the ICE comparison. With the ICE, each cylinder is independent, and so can produce full power, just uneven. With an induction motor on two phases, there is no rotating field. For a star connected motor, I'm guessing the only torque is from a sort of stepper motor effect on two phases. For a motor connected in delta (which I was thinking of), only one set of stator coils gets current at all, so the best it can be like is a 3-phase stepper motor running on one phase.

Were you getting any power from the induction motor on two phases? [Edit: i.e. was this just unloaded, perhaps on the bench, or while driving?]
Is it wired in star?


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

I've been able to restore the 8.4V signal on the faulty driver by borrowing the correct diode from another section. Now I know that I can restore the outputs so its time to start a shopping list. I still can't be sure if this will fix it once and for all but all I can to is press on.

FR107 (obsolete!) This is the fast recovery diode that is connected to the emitter of the IGBT - no wonder it was rated at 1000V and had to be fast recovery.
http://search.digikey.com/scripts/DkSearch/dksus.dll?Detail&name=FR107DITR-ND

IN4751A - Zener Diode (this is the one I have a "near match" that seems to work well enough for testing). Digikey has IN4751A-T Does the "T" on the end matter? I hope not.
http://search.digikey.com/scripts/DkSearch/dksus.dll?Detail&name=1N4751ADITR-ND

IN4739A - Zener Diode. This is the second zener that I cannot find a close match for.
http://search.digikey.com/scripts/DkSearch/dksus.dll?vendor=0&keywords=4739A

IN4745A - Zener Diode. I think these are used as a protection circuit for the IGBT gate. They are mounted on a small PC board that is installed directly on the IGBT. They still seem to be OK, but considering the price I figure I better have some spares anyway. Some of them were very close to the fire.
http://search.digikey.com/scripts/DkSearch/dksus.dll?vendor=0&keywords=4745A

Not going to order anything yet because I want to look over the rest of the board as well as I reasonably can to make sure there isn't anything else I might need that needs replacing.


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## Coulomb (Apr 22, 2009)

david85 said:


> I've been able to restore the 8.4V signal on the faulty driver by borrowing the correct diode from another section.


Excellent!



> FR107 (obsolete!) This is the fast recovery diode that is connected to the emitter of the IGBT - no wonder it was rated at 1000V and had to be fast recovery.
> http://search.digikey.com/scripts/DkSearch/dksus.dll?Detail&name=FR107DITR-ND


It looks like Digikey are out of stock of this obsolete item. But any 1A 1000V fast recovery diode should do. It may not need to be 1000 V; the emitter of the IGBT is what the gate drivers are referenced to; it's like "ground" for these drivers. But it would be best to replace with 1000 V types anyway. 
The same-manufacturer part appears to be
http://search.digikey.com/scripts/DkSearch/dksus.dll?Detail&name=UF1007DICT-ND



> IN4751A - Zener Diode (this is the one I have a "near match" that seems to work well enough for testing). Digikey has IN4751A-T Does the "T" on the end matter? I hope not.


No, the T just means tape-and-reel verses some other packaging arrangement. I don't think you're ready for automatic pick and placement machines just yet, so packaging (in the sense of how the parts come attached) doesn't matter.



> IN4739A - Zener Diode. This is the second zener that I cannot find a close match for.
> http://search.digikey.com/scripts/DkSearch/dksus.dll?vendor=0&keywords=4739A


BTW, that's a 1N4739A, not IN4739A (digit "1" verses letter "I"). That could make searching a little easier. It's here:
http://search.digikey.com/scripts/DkSearch/dksus.dll?Detail&name=1N4739ADICT-ND



> IN4745A - Zener Diode. I think these are used as a protection circuit for the IGBT gate. They are mounted on a small PC board that is installed directly on the IGBT. They still seem to be OK, but considering the price I figure I better have some spares anyway. Some of them were very close to the fire.
> http://search.digikey.com/scripts/DkSearch/dksus.dll?vendor=0&keywords=4745A


It's here:
http://search.digikey.com/scripts/DkSearch/dksus.dll?Detail&name=1N4745ADICT-ND


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## Dave Koller (Nov 15, 2008)

Coulomb said:


> Excellent!
> 
> BTW, that's a 1N4739A, not IN4739A (digit "1" verses letter "I").


LOL beat me to it, (which goes to show my dialup is slow) ...

Looks like you are closing in David! Coulomb has you on track! ....


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

> BTW, that's a 1N4739A, not IN4739A (digit "1" verses letter "I"). That could make searching a little easier. It's here:


Thanks for clearing that up. That explains why *IN*XXXX searches didn't turn anything up.



> the T just means tape-and-reel verses some other packaging arrangement. I don't think you're ready for automatic pick and placement machines just yet, so packaging (in the sense of how the parts come attached) doesn't matter.


So thats what they meant by tape and reel, was wondering about that. Yes, I should probably be kept away from the more expensive equipment. The place might burn to the ground, but I bet I can find that loose screw that caused it LOL! (That might be my motto from now on)

So if I understand this right, Zener Diodes act almost like a really simple voltage regulator? That last one I installed produced a voltage drop from 24V down to 9V (resistors took it down the rest of the way to 8.4).


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

Trigger has been pulled. I just ordered 6 of each. Final price was barely over $20 with $8 of that being just the shipping.

I should also add they paid us a courtesy call the day after the first order (IGBT drivers) arrived to make sure everything was ok and to call if we have any concerns. Thats never happened before. So far Digikey seems to be a good supplier.


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## Coulomb (Apr 22, 2009)

david85 said:


> So if I understand this right, Zener Diodes act almost like a really simple voltage regulator? That last one I installed produced a voltage drop from 24V down to 9V (resistors took it down the rest of the way to 8.4).


Yes, more or less. They are like ordinary diodes in the forward direction, but they start conducting around their nominal voltage. So a 9.1 V zener with 8 volts across it (positive to cathode, the end with the stripe) is open circuit, but at 9.5 V will try to conduct quite hard. With a resistor in series with it, the voltage across the zener will be "clamped" at close to 9.1 V.

So you can make a simple, low power voltage regulator with just the resistor and zener. It doesn't have the precise output voltage of a proper regulator IC, and you can only pull so much current from the circuit before the voltage will sag below the zener voltage. [Edit: this is a simple example of a shunt regulator.]

The higher power zeners can also be used as spike suppressors; I think one of yours was a 30 V 1 W zener. On a 24 V circuit, the zener would start conducting whenever a spike raised the nominal 24 V supply to more than 30 V, absorbing the spike and protecting other equipment. Depending on the size of the spike, it may fail, but it will likely protect more expensive components around it, and may prevent erratic operation of the vehicle. It sounds like some of them did just that in your recent "event"; things may have turned out worse if protective components like that weren't present.

Usually, you would not put a zener in series with a power supply (e.g. dropping 24 V to 9 V), but it can be used that way to "drop" a relatively constant voltage across it. More commonly, a resistor drops the voltage, and the zener adjusts the current through the resistor so that a fairly constant voltage ends up across the zener.


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

Well its been an interesting day so far. The parts from Digikey arrived right on time early this afternoon, then I had to go see the dentist

Mouth is still a bit numb at the moment but after getting back it only took about 10 minutes to install the diodes.

Just as I was finishing up with the controller, it started hailing LMAO!

Seems to be easing up so I might get a chance today to try the controller out.


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

It moves!!!

I can't be sure but it seems to be slightly more "ballzy" too. Too early for a road test but I drove it into the shop under its own power and will be checking everything over tonight starting with the under car wiring (connects the rear box to the front).


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Congrats! I guess you didn't drool on the electronics after your dentist visit


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

LOL, no but I came close. They had to give me another shot of some more potent local freezing because evedently the usual stuff didn't work. Took a solid 3 hours to wear of and my lower lip is still feeling some of it right now. At least I can talk again

What a relief though (the car, I mean).


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## dimitri (May 16, 2008)

David, congrats on reviving your controller! Its been quite an experience to follow your build for past FEW YEARS 

I guess you can offer your Chinese supplier to host North American warranty shop for their controllers since you know the damn thing inside out by now


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## BWH (Sep 26, 2008)

david85 said:


> It moves!!!



Yay! 

It looks like you are going to beat me to the road.


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

dimitri said:


> David, congrats on reviving your controller! Its been quite an experience to follow your build for past FEW YEARS
> 
> I guess you can offer your Chinese supplier to host North American warranty shop for their controllers since you know the damn thing inside out by now


Not quite sure how to take that LMAO

Darkness is falling. Very tempted to let the creature out for a spin tonight......(fewer cops)


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## Dave Koller (Nov 15, 2008)

Go David - night riding without lights - stealth -- ..

We are all waiting!


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## BWH (Sep 26, 2008)

Yeah, it's not like they are going to be able to hear you driving around.


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

Ok, I drove it. But unfortunately the camera battery was low. What I recored wasn't worth posting. Barely made it up the driveway before it crapped out (LiCo2 doesn't take the cold as well as LiFePO4)

Car ran pretty good but the high power cut out is still there if I try and accelerate too hard. Its more noticable in higher gears where amp draw is higher. However if I feather the pedal, the acceleration isn't too bad. Clutchless shifting is like clockwork. No hesitation at all and I can change gears in about 0.5 seconds. Floating down in the gears was also quite easy to do. I think I got up to about 60 KPH.

Basically just one quick little trip around the block and came back home. Had a fire extinguisher with me this time but thankfully I didn't need it.


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## BWH (Sep 26, 2008)

Did you indulge in maniacal laughter?










I would have.


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

lol, Actually I did that the first time I got the motor to roll over on 2 phases. That was before I realized it was only a partial victory, but still I was happy to see signs of life again.

I didn't do that tonight for 2 reasons.

1) I was too nervous

2) I figured if I let even a small amount out, there would be no stopping the rest and I would wake the neighborhood. I can't have that kind of attention without insurance

But I couldn't help myself. I drove it again and got a video this time. Its not great but its still something that I can finally share. Its uploading to youtube now.


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

Well here it is.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fLc10qvo7wo

If the quality doesn't improve much after its completed processing, I might just take it down once I have a better video. You can sort of hear it though.


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## mrbigh (Dec 31, 2008)

david85 said:


> Well here it is.
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fLc10qvo7wo
> 
> If the quality doesn't improve much after its completed processing, I might just take it down once I have a better video. You can sort of hear it though.


In between all that peach black recording and the road rumble...
"I got the feeling..."
that the controller is in the way to be finished, at least it didn't stall on you.
Congrats on your overhauling efforts.


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## Voltswagen (Nov 13, 2008)

David
How could you possibly call that a successful test drive?
You hit 3 kids, 2 puppies and an old lady in a wheelchair! 

Try again when the sun returns to Downtown Canada.........maybe early June.

Roy


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## Dave Koller (Nov 15, 2008)

OK knight(night)rider it took me about three hours on dial-up to download that video! It reminds me of traveling thru the galactic ends of the universe .. If it wasn't for all those street lights, flying by - and swinging into the void on turns, and the soft whir of your engine - I say you were in the garage! It must have been a great feeling EVEN if it not up to par yet.. looked good to me.. Now do one in the daylight so we can see the whirling lights of the cop car - (evil laugh inserted here)...


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## PatricioIN (Jun 13, 2008)

Good to see it on the road.. ok, hear it on the road. I'll take your word for it that you actually WERE on the road! lol


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Awesome video! Here's a picture of my conversion, sweet right?


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

I'm never gonna live this down, am I?


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## BWH (Sep 26, 2008)

Mad cackling has been proven to be very therapeutic you know. 

Don't let the ribbing get you down.  Some of us can only wish we could take a video of a nighttime, questionably legal, EV test run. 

I hope my turn is next.


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

I'm working on a second video during daylight. Sound doesn't seem to be much better but at least you can see whats going on.

You guys didn't give KiwiEV as much trouble when he made a night video


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## Voltswagen (Nov 13, 2008)

Well.........he's a Kiwi........you're a Canook.......it's different.


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

Voltswagen said:


> Well.........he's a Kiwi........you're a Canook.......it's different.


I don't suppose any of my fellow Canooks are going to come to my aid on this?

*sound of crickets*

LMAO


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## tomofreno (Mar 3, 2009)

Congratulations! Boy, what perseverance, good job!


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## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

David congrats on getting moving at least and you owe me a pair of under wear, after watching the video of the night ride I pissed myself laughing .... THAT WAS GREAT!!! As a fellow Canook you are on your own with that one,,,, I will continue to read up on the thread but Sounds great dude that was FUNNY keep it up!!!!!!!!!!!

Brian


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

I feel so betrayed. Ok you win guys, here's a better one:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iljLp2maWq0

Later that night I got it up to 70KPH. Gettin' closer....


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## Coulomb (Apr 22, 2009)

Wow, thanks, David!

I'm blown away by how fast you can change gears! I can't really hear the motor pitch (damned electric motors).... what's happening to the motor speed? Surely it has to be going from ~4000 RPM to ~2500 RPM in the next highest gear.

Do you have anything fancy to attempt to speed match? Does the controller claim to attempt this? Or is it just that the motor and controller as a system is "rubbery enough" and I suppose has a low enough inertia to match speeds in a fraction of a second?

Well done, in any case!

Is your flywheel especially light?


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## Jan (Oct 5, 2009)

Coulomb said:


> Wow, thanks, David!
> 
> I'm blown away by how fast you can change gears! I can't really hear the motor pitch (damned electric motors).... what's happening to the motor speed? Surely it has to be going from ~4000 RPM to ~2500 RPM in the next highest gear.
> 
> ...


I guess he didn't keep the flywheel. Why should he, going clutchless? And I think the right amount of regen makes the fast shifting possible. 

I thought seeing that shifting down isn't going so smooth. What's a kind of a shame, because that way regen isn't used as it could be.

Anyway, glad it worked out so well, David.


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## joshg678 (Jan 25, 2009)

Jan said:


> I guess he didn't keep the flywheel. Why should he, going clutchless? And I think the right amount of regen makes the fast shifting possible.
> 
> I thought seeing that shifting down isn't going so smooth. What's a kind of a shame, because that way regen isn't used as it could be.
> 
> Anyway, glad it worked out so well, David.


I think he needs to give the gas pedal a tap when he goes to down shift, otherwise his Syncros in the transmission are going to wear out in 10000KM and he'll be rebuilding the transmission.
Just my $0.02


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

Actually guys, I'm starting to rethink the whole clutchless idea. While I can float gears to downshift, it requires a bit too much coordination. The brief little spin around the neighborhood with stop signs showed me that all too well. Having to slow to a stop at the bottom of a hill near the middle of the video, you can see my downshifting was worst. I still have the original engine, flywheel, pressure plate and all. I'm thinking of hacking the end of the crankshaft off and having modified to fit the splines of the motor shaft. However in the meantime, the car is drivable. Removing the clutch and flywheel allowed for some weight reduction but maybe it wasn't a worth while trade off after all. I believe one of your friends mentioned this, coulomb.

But the small amount of regen does make upshifting very fast indeed since the motor doesn't freewheel with no load. I typically hit the max RPM of the motor (pedal to the floor) at the end of 1st gear before shifting to second and thats what you see in this video. With no load, the motor will spin 4400 RPM at that shaft. I would have to run some calculations to figure out for sure if its reaching 4400 while driving though. Maybe Josh would know for sure, but in 1st gear I can just barely reach 40 KPH. The end of 2nd takes me to 60.

I'm going to try borrowing a different camera to see if the motor sound comes through a bit better because it is very noticeable while driving. In a good way, of course.


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## El Rayo (Mar 23, 2009)

Congratulations, David! Hope you don't mind that i embedded your video to the Norwegian EV forum.


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## Jan (Oct 5, 2009)

David, is your inverter programmable? Has it a pot for regen?


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## El Rayo (Mar 23, 2009)

david85 said:


> Actually guys, I'm starting to rethink the whole clutchless idea.


Before you decide, please try doing the same route in second gear only; no shifting at all. I think that you will find it quite doable.


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

Funds are getting a little tight at the moment so the car will remain basically unchanged for the next few weeks until work picks up again. I'll try 2nd gear starts next time to see how it performs.

I'm not 100% sure, but I think the pedal is actually a PWM. Nothing in the controller is programmable however. Regen is also too weak to really affect braking. As time permits I'm hoping to be able to modify the controller eventually to bring the regen performance up.

I don't mind if you post a link.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Interesting. In my limited testing of my AC31 in the parking lot I can easily hit 30mph, 48 kph, in first and I've hit 40 mph, 64 kph in second with more to go. I imagine around town driving with no shifting at all. Of course the AC31 goes to 6k.


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

JRP3 said:


> Interesting. In my limited testing of my AC31 in the parking lot I can easily hit 30mph, 48 kph, in first and I've hit 40 mph, 64 kph in second with more to go. I imagine around town driving with no shifting at all. Of course the AC31 goes to 6k.


Were you maxed out for RPM?

This is what I am getting.
1st = 40KPH
2nd = 60KPH

Only thing I'm still concerned about with second gear starts is if the amps get too high and cause the power to cut out. However on the last trip the car had 3 people in it and driving up a mild hill in second gear, I floored it with no ill effects. Car continued to gently accelerate. It was brief however, because my turn off was coming up.

I think I may also have a way to disable or "trick" that safety cut out feature but I won't do that until I have an effective way to monitor the motor and controller from inside the car. In theory, this could be a way to bump up the power slightly as well.

Have you been holding out on us? I don't remember you mentioning your car was moving? Congrats!


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## Dave Koller (Nov 15, 2008)

OK .
(you look much better in daylight ) Nice trip, nice shifts, (clean the windshield lol), that looks so smooth and straight-forward!

I think you should have turned around, looked at the camera, and gave us a big EV grin! Nice job David!


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## El Rayo (Mar 23, 2009)

Posted a link here with the embedded video now, David.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

david85 said:


> Were you maxed out for RPM?


 I'm not sure, things were moving quickly in the parking lot at those speeds and I didn't have a chance to spend much time looking at the gauge.



> Have you been holding out on us? I don't remember you mentioning your car was moving? Congrats!


You've had your head buried inside a controller and missed my thread I guess
http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showthread.php/eviero-ac31-se100-fiero-build-41752.html


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## tomofreno (Mar 3, 2009)

> Were you maxed out for RPM?


 What are your gear ratios and tire diameter compared to JRP3s? My tire diameter is 21.5" or 54.6 cm, first gear is 13.45:1 overall, and second is 7.16:1 overall. I can get up to a bit over 25 mph (~42 kph), and about 50 mph (~83 kph) in second in my Swift. Rpm at 45 mph (~75 kph) in second is about 5000, about 5600 at 50 mph. I do most of my driving in second, including starting from stop lights most of the time.


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

Looking good JRP3! Thanks for the heads up, I subscribed. And yeah I completely missed your thread with all thats been going on lately.

Would you guys believe I have more good news for today? The charger seems to be working.

Still tripped the breaker in the shop a couple times but then my Dad looks up at the shop ceiling to the four long tube light fixtures which are on the same breaker as the charger. I forgot they were on the same breaker. Sure enough, turn the lights off and the charger stayed on indefinitely. Breaker is 30 amp, charger draws 25, so it really should have its own dedicated circuit. That means it is running on 220VAC single phase as of tonight. I can easily switch it back to 3 phase anytime I like if needed.

As for the cooling fan, haha, well I finally clued into the fact that its not a 3 phase. Its single phase. All I had to do was swap one wire over on the rectifier (where the fan takes power in), and it came to life. I used an IR thermometer to make sure nothing over heated and monitored it with the cover removed. I probably gave it about 1 hour worth of charging before I decided to shut it off. I was getting bored and one cell was showing 3.8V. Not quite in the danger zone, but still I didn't want to take it any higher without the BMS working.

Monitoring some of the individual cells and the total pack voltage I would say its very close to a full charge right now. Voltage was starting to climb at an increasing rate, all the more reason to shut it down with a single cell already nearly full.

The BMS module seems to be wired for single phase so no changes needed there. Thats where the real fun begins. I have to wire the complete harness for the BMS to every single cell connection in the car - *and they have to be in the correct order*. The harness that was supplied with the battery wasn't really intended to be used for a battery that isn't in one single location. So I'll have to splice the harness to span the length of the car and route everything where it has to be. Its gonna get messy and my fingers will be sore when its done. I am also giving serious consideration to eventually taking the guts out of the BMS case and making a custom box in the car with the LED indicators mounted in the dash somewhere. That would look kinda cool, wouldn't it? There is one last spot under the hood for just such a box, right next to Brian's DC/DC converter (will probably make the box big enough for both if possible). Although now that I think of it, that small compartment in the rear box might also be large enough.......something to double check.

That way if I ever need to charge somewhere else, I only have to lug the charger with me instead of another box the exact same size. The internals of the BMS are also very light so added weight is not a concern. Unless I'm planning a long trip, the charger will stay home since the battery capacity is so large and my town so small that opportunity charging will probably happen very rarely if at all.

For now I'll be content to handle charging with the charger and BMS more or less unaltered and separate from the car. Next thing to do is wire up the BMS and see if it does indeed work properly since I've never been able to test it before. I'm really looking forward to this long weekend.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

tomofreno said:


> What are your gear ratios and tire diameter compared to JRP3s? My tire diameter is 21.5" or 54.6 cm, first gear is 13.45:1 overall, and second is 7.16:1 overall. I can get up to a bit over 25 mph (~42 kph), and about 50 mph (~83 kph) in second in my Swift. Rpm at 45 mph (~75 kph) in second is about 5000, about 5600 at 50 mph. I do most of my driving in second, including starting from stop lights most of the time.


That seems like a big jump between first and second, or have you just not maxed it out in first?


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## tomofreno (Mar 3, 2009)

> That seems like a big jump between first and second, or have you just not maxed it out in first?


 That is because first gear is only about half the ratio as second (13.45/7.16 ~ 1.88), so motor rpm is almost doubled for a given wheel rpm and vehicle speed. So 5600 rpm in second at 50 mph means about 5500 rpm in first at about 27 mph. In first it would be a little over 6000 rpm at 30 mph.


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

I don't have the numbers for my saturn transaxle on hand but I have similar ratios in the transmission with first being around 14:1 final drive ratio. The 50% difference between 1st and 2nd seems to be the norm with most transmissions. My truck even has a similar gap between 1st an 2nd (1st 8.3:1, and 2nd is 4.7:1 - slushbox).


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## PatricioIN (Jun 13, 2008)

much better video.. but uh - not much of a conversationalist eh? Is that you driving? How old are you?? lol... I'm confused.


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

Yes, well not all of us are on the news every other evening

Thats me alright. I can write fairly well, but performing on camera isn't something I have any experience with, so bear with me.

Oh, and I'm 25 as of yesterday (hence the number in my user name).

I tried a few tweaks with the charger today and after maybe 15 more minutes of intermittent charging, I got a green light on the indicator. That means full charge!

It will be a little while before I can integrate the BMS into the car because apparently I don't have enough wiring spool to make up the harness. I have other things to keep me busy until then though.


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## Dave Koller (Nov 15, 2008)

LOL

Happy B-day (what a nice time to get the car running!)
AWWWW to be 25 again! 

another 40 + years and you will catch up to me !! I am on my third-generation of kids I coach - so I have been driven around the block a few more times than your car ...

Great on the full charge - soon coast to coast in your EV........


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## PatricioIN (Jun 13, 2008)

eh, my 15 minutes of fame were over loooong ago - haha.. I am even more impressed with your accomplishment now that I know you're such a youngin'! Great job, btw. Happy ev -ing


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## PatricioIN (Jun 13, 2008)

oh.. and uh.. HAPPY BIRTHDAY!


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

Thanks guys, guess I got a birthday present I really wasn't expecting.

Drove about 18 kilometers today over the course of several short trips close to home. Basically just bombing around the neighborhood after dark, so nothing for you guys to see. I drove for a while, then Dad tried it out, then I drove some more and then back to the shop so I could look things over. Motor and controller are running cool, so after he had enough I got back in an drove a once more before parking it. This car is going to be nasty habit I think. Not to mention a *slightly* smoother ride than my usual diesel pickup.

I am getting a better feel for it now and its not exactly a completely flat torque curve. Power seems to pick up slightly in the mid range and then bleeds off Just before the top. Hard to say if there really is a sweet spot or where it is without a working tach (that will come later). I am confident that it cannot produce 100% torque at zero RPM but so far what it does have is more than enough for even fairly steep inclines in 1st gear.

Don't quite have an absolute plan for tomorrow, but I'm thinking to remove all the batteries from the car and set them up on the floor so I can connect the BMS for a final test of the charging system (and make 100% sure that all cells are within satisfactory balance). Once I do that, it might be time to consider a longer trip

One dissapointment so far is that while the motor does return to 0 RPM fairly quick after releasing the pedal (allowing for the fast clutchless shifting), regenerative braking is not noticable. I'm not sure what if anything can be done about this, but I will probably figure it out eventually.


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## El Rayo (Mar 23, 2009)

The reason you don't feel 100% torque at 0 RPM is probably caused by the current limiter in the controller. It's a good thing for protecting the battery from over current, too.
Did you try a second gear start yet?

Regen in my Th!nk is two stage 50A/100A. Regen is activated by the brake light switch and works like this: Press an hold brake pedal gives 100A regen above 60 kph, then amps is reduced gradually to 0 at about 20kph. Press and release gives 50A above 40 kph. Regen is disconnected when the accelerator is pressed. Only a very gentle deceleration is achieved at 100A, the front drive wheels do not skid unless the road is covered with ice - skating-rink-quality.

Energy captured by regen is about 5% - 8% according to the log in my Th!nk.


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## BWH (Sep 26, 2008)

Happy Belated Birthday! 



david85 said:


> Thanks guys, guess I got a birthday present I really wasn't expecting.


That's one heck of an unexpected present. 

Good luck with your charging and long range test.


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

I did try 2nd gear starts and it works ok for flat ground but I'm concerned about overcurrent if I start on a hill. I'm driving with a light foot to try and avoid the power cut out which can still happen sometimes. I agree the torque range probably has to do with the controller software settings (3-phase motors typically don't deliver 100% torque at 0 RPM anyway). I'm also getting the hang of downshifting to 1st gear so I can roll off from a stop sign without any hesitation. However long term I am 90% sure the clutch will go back in. I want other people to be able to drive the car without too much fussing. 

Its not really a big deal though, because in a single day I can tear the car down to a bare chassis and have the motor/transaxle removed. Only trick will be having a flange coupler made up but for now the car is drivable.

I was hoping for regen that is powerful enough to significantly reduce my use of the friction brakes. But considering how many things are going right lately, I really can't complain.


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

Had some work to perform on another vehicle today and naturally there were complications. I split my time between the EV and the ICE best I could but its already evening and only now is the battery completely removed and ready for connections to the charger and BMS. Probably looking at another couple hours before everything is hooked up.

Its amazing how much dirtier you get when working on an ICE (with a coolant leak!!!). There were times when I wondered if the way I assembled my car was not servicable enough......then I do some work on an OEM! I feel better now - sore, but better

I forgot to post these images of the controller resurrection (no pun intended being easter).

These are the diodes I ordered from Digikey that finally brought the controller back to life. All $12 worth. You can see one of them installed in the driver board with a screw driver pointing it out to give you an idea for just how tiny they are.

The controller is also out of the car and I'm going to check things over and try wiring the DC/DC converter into it so it can borrow the same precharge circuit on start up (no more big spark that way).


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

Charger and BMS seem to be working perfectly! 

The fan for the BMS wasn't turning on at first but after maybe half an hour it came on automatically. The charger fan turns on as soon as the main contactors close so I was a little confused until the BMS fan came on. Everything is still charging up right now but I took a few photos of the setup and how its working.

You can see the LED equalizer circuits come to life automatically as each cell reaches full charge (3.7~3.8V). After they all light up and stay on for a while it should shut down automatically.

I checked a the cells and the net pack voltage several times and noted some cells that were slightly over 3.8V have now come down below 3.8 after the BMS came on even though the charger is still trickling power in. Other cells that are holding in the 3.4~3.5V range are slowly coming up. Since this is the first fully functional charger and BMS event, I expect the balance phase to take a couple hours at least.

Total pack voltage has hit a ceiling at 176.7 V, while the BMS continues to nit pick on the individual cells


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

While that was happening, I tinkered with the controller a bit more. I added an extra snubber as some one on AEVA suggested earlier (now all 3 IGBTs have the exact same snubber capacity). And I replaced a stimple twist connection for the motor direction circuit with an actual snap together connector. Some of you might know of the proceedure that some EFI vehicles have to set base timing that involves unplugging an inline connector to disable the auto advance. Well, thats what this connector comes from (waste nothing! haha). EEC mark4 ford electronic ignition/tune port fuel injection system from the late 80s to be exact.

The idea here is the motor will not normally be reversed in day to day use, but for diagnostic occasions, it might come in handy to be able to do that. This connector is automotive rated and is weather sealed too. I figure if it survived 20 years under the hood of a greasy heat engine, it should be quite happy under the hood of a cold, clean EV.

I also pulled a 10ga wire through from the output side of the main internal contactor of the controller. This is what I will try to tap into for the DC/DC converter. If it doesn't work, I can still cap it off and use this later for the high voltage signal that the cluster gauges will need inside.


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## procupine14 (Mar 17, 2010)

Wow that is a really neat little trick! I'm really impressed with your EV and am continuing to watch since I am just about to convert a '99 SL2 that is just about ready to be replaced as the daily commuter (until it gets converted of course) due to overwhelming ICE maintenance costs and problems.


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## Dave Koller (Nov 15, 2008)

procupine14 said:


> Wow that is a really neat little trick! I'm really impressed with your EV and am continuing to watch since I am just about to convert a '99 SL2 that is just about ready to be replaced as the daily commuter (until it gets converted of course) due to overwhelming ICE maintenance costs and problems.


(First,Nice work David )

AND 99 SL2 is So nice to work on - rip it up!


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

If this keeps up we are going to have to form a saturn club

Well I'm satisfied with the BMS and have started reinstalling the batteries with the BMS harness in the car. Its tedious but it might not be as bad as I first thought. There seems to be a decent amount of extra length in the harness and I might not have to add as much wiring as I thought.

Unfortunately I messed up a little with some of the wiring and they are out of sequence. *sigh* have to redo it tomorrow.

Some of the cells were also further out of balance then the rest and I marked them. They will be deployed in easy to reach locations so I can keep a close eye on them just in case.


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## Coulomb (Apr 22, 2009)

david85 said:


> (3-phase motors typically don't deliver 100% torque at 0 RPM anyway).


Huh? Well, induction motors with no position encoders typically get reduced torque at low speed, to prevent instability, but with a position sensor, torque should be flat down to 0 RPM. In fact, many controllers offer a thing called "torque boost" or similar (from unreliable memory), where extra voltage is used to increase the torque at low speeds, up to some 44%.

I'm not certain how it is with synchronous permanent magnet motors, but I'm pretty sure that 100% torque at 0 RPM is no problem.


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## procupine14 (Mar 17, 2010)

david85 said:


> If this keeps up we are going to have to form a saturn club


I know it's interesting to see how many Saturn EVs there are! I'm all for a club hahaha! Like I said as soon as the ICE motor gives up or I have enough cash on hand to snag another small car for comuting this SL2 will go EV style.


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

Coulomb said:


> Huh? Well, induction motors with no position encoders typically get reduced torque at low speed, to prevent instability, but with a position sensor, torque should be flat down to 0 RPM. In fact, many controllers offer a thing called "torque boost" or similar (from unreliable memory), where extra voltage is used to increase the torque at low speeds, up to some 44%.
> 
> I'm not certain how it is with synchronous permanent magnet motors, but I'm pretty sure that 100% torque at 0 RPM is no problem.


I'm going from spec sheets for azure dynamics motors that in all honesty are quite old by now. I'm not saying all motors are like that.


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

Think I'm about half way through the battery install/wiring phase. The front is done but some of the leads will have to be extended underneath the car. The harness is already split from factory into 2 equal sized independant sections already so that helps, but since I still have more batteries in the front than in the rear, Some from the rear harness will need to be extended to the front to complete the 50/50 split bwtween the 2 equalizer circuits.

Looking at it now, it feels more like I'm wiring an aircraft then a car. It was a real mess before I put the zip ties on to clean everything up a little. Back is a little sore from leaning over the front of the car for the last few hours. Almost there though!


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

This one will be a longer read.

Got the rest of the battery back in the car but the BMS wiring isn't quite all there yet. I still need to run those wires to connect front to rear but I was starting to make mistakes and decided to leave that part of the work for another day. Every cell does have the BMS leads attached now so most of the work is done.

Soo....................I innocently looked around......

the sun had set,

The car powered up as usual, all systems go.

You know what that means right? Night drive!!!!!

Asked my dad if he wanted to join me (stupid question!)

Tonights drive was about 24km total and we drove it about has hard as ever. Its not a power house but we did set a new top speed of at least 80 KPH. The car doesn't accelerate very well, but it does seem to hold speed on hills pretty good and coasts for-EVER even at higher relative speeds. Power still cut out on us on a few occasions but it did pretty good with some respect for the go pedal.

We ventured a little farther from home this time and entered a higher speed zone (uh, but I can't tell you how high the speed zone was..........). The car builds speed much more slowly above 70 KPH, but it does still accelerate. I easily got it up to 70 KPH going down hill, then gradually built up to 80 after leveling out on flat ground.

Now I was eying the _*bottom*_ of a hill.........wasn't sure what to expect. Guessing its about 4-5% slope. Barely a speed bump for my diesel truck but this wasn't a 220+ Hp turbocharged V8 under the hood anymore. This thing has 50Hp under the hood.......on paper...I think.

I hit the bottom at about 79 KPH and didn't try to move the throttle at all. I just let it do it's thing and allowed speed to bleed off on its own. At the top of the hill, it had dropped to about 70 and then recovered to 80 fairly quick when the grade leveled off, again with me holding the same throttle position. Another half a mile and I found a pull out for my dad to take over. It still feels so strange to be switching drivers at nigh in a car that isn't idling. Night excursions like this are not unusual in my family but other *experimental* vehicles always had pistons. Its somehow reassuring to have the vehicle making noise when everything else is silent. This had a spooky thrill to it.

So he turns it around and heads back to that same hill but now he gets to go down it....

Up through 1st, 2nd, and 3rd, and he asks me if its ok to try for 4th. Sure, you should be fine. LOL! He pops into 4th without incident, then the speedometer starts climbing as he descends, and climbing, and.........climbing. The car reached 100 KPH by the time he was at the bottom of the hill. Speed held steady and dropped only after he lifted the pedal. I couldn't believe what I was seeing. 100 KPH and holding steady.

He carried on and turned onto our street until we end up in front of our house where he pulls over on the side of the road to let me take over again. Well!!!!! you know where I'm going as soon as I get behind the wheel. Back to that place where the speed record was set.

Before turning off our street I yank on the wheel from side to side just to see what the handling is like. No problem. I couldn't detect any body roll and the car felt very firm and tight. The low center of gravity must be helping. I continue and turn onto the faster road. Now its 80 KPH all the way to that hill and I have to tell you it feels like nothing else. Its better than flying. The car tracks so nicely, so smooth, and I can still get some audio feedback from the hum of the motor and transmission gears as I watch the broken white line on the road pulsing next to me outside the window. The bonding phase had begun.

Ok - bottom of the hill start out at 80 and I push it a little harder this time. Now it only drops to 74 KPH at the top. Actually, I almost passed some one after cresting the hill but I had to slow down for my U turn which came up pretty quick. I turn around and head for the downhill run. I gotta be honest though I kinda forgot to look at the speedo this time. The windshield fogged up on me and we were trying to address that instead. I think I only made it to 90 KPH this time. Note to self......GET WIPER BLADES!!!! LMAO

After clearing the windshield, I carried on and held the speed at 80. And before my turn off comes up, one last cherry on the cake. The car claimed its first kill tonight. I passed some one (4 lane road).

Based on the average of me driving up that hill at 74 KPH, and my Dad reaching 100 KPH going down (he later said it wasn't maxed out), the top speed is now 87 KPH (or about 53.2 MPH).

I pulled the car back into the shop and start unhooking everything for the night. I took a measurement of the motor temperature and came up with 43C. Is that good? lol, I don't know whats normal for these things! Funny how you can go through a project like this and get stumped by some of the simplest questions. Going to TRY and get some sleep tonight.


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## BWH (Sep 26, 2008)

Congratulations!

Now that is what this (hobby/lifestyle/incessant need to tinker) is all about.


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## dexion (Aug 22, 2009)

Dave,

Perhaps I missed them but by the pictures, I dont see any fuses on the bms lines (at the battery.) They are very cheap and fairly easy to install as well get em up near the battery. I would worry about unfused links of thin wire rubbing together while I drive and shorting out 1 then 2 then 3 etc cells as they all happily melt together in 30 seconds and causing a fire. 

http://www.mcmelectronics.com/product/60-3720
http://www.mcmelectronics.com/product/ATC10
Fifty of each are $45 delivered. 

Oh saturn here as well for a conversion so sign me up for the club.


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## joshg678 (Jan 25, 2009)

Sounds like you have one heck of an afternoon. I wish i had one, lol.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

dexion said:


> Dave,
> 
> I would worry about unfused links of thin wire rubbing together while I drive and shorting out 1 then 2 then 3 etc cells as they all happily melt together in 30 seconds and causing a fire.


Which is exactly what happened to Jack Rickard recently when some wires on his Celllog8 shorted and started burning. Luckily it just melted the wires, but fuses on the BMS seem like a good idea.


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

Wires have to be secured so they don't rub against anything just like they are in an OEM vehicle. I'm also going to wrap the bundles in electrical tape and then wire loom. However, I am liking the idea of fueses for long term.


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## Dave Koller (Nov 15, 2008)

Way to go David..... Yep fuses never hurt!... and dexion it IS a Saturn club lol...


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

Almost forgot. I measured the pack voltage before last nights drive: 161.5V
Right after getting back was 157.8

This morning was 160.2.

So rest for rest voltage drop was 1.3V for a 24 kilometer drive. I would be comfortable going all the way down to 144V. Keep in mind, the discharge curve is not very linear and tends to drop off a cliff toward the bottom end. 

This isn't really enough to project the total range but it doesn't stop me from playing with the numbers anyway. I compared that voltage drop to the battery test graphs from 2008 and came up with 97 miles theoretical. (assuming a linear drop to 3V/cell as the bottom end cut off). Time will tell if those numbers get anywhere near the real world results. I'll have to try one evening for a 50km drive to get a better sampling size but would like to get the BMS working and integrated before I risk a discharge that deep.

Right now I am on to the tedius part of the BMS wiring and routing/splicing in the car. Gonna be a little while.....


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

Looks like I will be going with plan A after all when dealing with the BMS. What's plan A?

Plan A involves cutting, splicing or lengthening just about every last wire lead in the harness of 49 BMS wires. But I think this way it will turn out as good as possible and make the car appear to be OEM.

I knocked a hole through the firewall to mount the forward plug and allow the hook up to be made on the inside of the firewall. This allows things to be more or less weather proof because of the location here. The plug is located right next to the accelerator assembly and the wire bundle will be routed through the center console of the car to the rear trunk compartment where the BMS brain will be pertinently installed. This wire bundle isn't quite long enough to reach all the way to the back where it needs to be, so that will have to be lengthened by about 2 feet.

Looking at these photos, the cable appears to be a little close to the driver's foot over the throttle pedal, but there is actually plenty of room to keep everything clear.


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

More joy with BMS wiring today and still not done yet. I think I might be going through with drawl from that drive a few nights ago however.

Wishing some one warned me about that before I signed up for this stuff.

I might be out of the loop for a couple of days with a few jobs that start tomorrow.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Can't say I love the BMS cables bringing pack voltage potential into the cabin.


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## JRoque (Mar 9, 2010)

JRP3 said:


> Can't say I love the BMS cables bringing pack voltage potential into the cabin.


Eh? Isn't the BMS isolated from pack potential and each other? Or at least fused on both wires. Or keep that stuff far away from cabin.

JR


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

BMS leads are parallel wired to 3.2V each nominal. Technically the car's factory 12V system is more dangerous than the BMS.


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## JRoque (Mar 9, 2010)

> BMS leads are parallel wired


See if measuring the voltage between the BMS wires on cell #1 and the BMS wires of the last cell in you pack gets you more than 3.2V. 

JR


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Since there are no fuses if the wrong 2 wires short out couldn't you get pack voltage?


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## procupine14 (Mar 17, 2010)

details details lol there is one way to find out but I don't recommend it  ......seems like that would be an accurate assumption though....

I'm not really sure how that whole concept plays out but it seems to make sense.


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

JRP3 said:


> Since there are no fuses if the wrong 2 wires short out couldn't you get pack voltage?


The stars and planets would have to align for the precise combination to happen and even, then this is only half of the total pack harness so only half the possible pack voltage. The wires are also double protected inside a tight, heavy duty rubber sheath and will be completely covered and secured where they are routed inside the car so no damage can come to them from some one's foot or spilled drink.

If a short were to happen, it won't happen inside the car where there are no connections and the wires are tightly packed. It will happen in or near one of the boxes. If that were to happen, the wires would burn out near the short, not somewhere else along the length of the wire away from the short.

Considering how much abuse the underside of the car takes from normal use (rocks, water, sand, salt, branches, etc) I rather think its safer to have the wires protected inside the vehicle instead of exposed underneath where they are out of sight and damage can happen without me knowing about it. As far as I know, none of the factory wires for the car are routed under the floor and there is good reason for that.

The traction wires are routed underneath, but those are only 2 very heavy wires that are less vulnerable to damage but will still have to be protected anyway. Those also don't have exposed splices. The BMS will have to be spliced and while I will seal everything up the best I can, there is always the risk of salt and moisture getting in when those elements are constantly being sprayed at them.

Indeed, once salty water gets into the harness near some of those splices, that could very well cause a short. I've done wiring on trailers and vehicles before, and the wiring takes a sever beating no matter how well you try and protect them under the vehicle - shit always finds a way in. I'm completely convinced that sending the BMS wires through the cabin is the safest and best way to solve this problem which is why I am doing things this way.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

There is always conduit. But yeah, your risk is probably pretty minimal.


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

JRP3 said:


> There is always conduit. But yeah, your risk is probably pretty minimal.


Thought about that too actually.

I might still use sealed PVC conduit for the traction leads because it offers a nice hard, but clean shell to protect them from road debris in addition to offering extra insulation. For the BMS however, I would still be concerned about moisture getting in because the floor of the car is a very low spot relative to the rest of the harness and water might still collect in there without me knowing about it. A few small drain holes could address this, but still, now its open to the road and the high humidity that my area is legendary for. A belly pan would help address that, but I would still be taking a chance. It would also be much less servicable in case something does go wrong with the BMS harness.

This way, I have the quick dis-connect at the firewall and then it can be pulled all the way out and easily reinstalled when repaired. With a conduit, I would have to thread it through the pipe every time, and the assembled BMS harness is quite stiff!


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

I had some time to get back to the car late in the evening. Weather was gorgeous today and the bite of the wind finally eased up a little. The sun went down as I finalized the last connections in the car for the first on board charger/BMS test.

I was able to do some charging tonight, but I was getting tired and figured it was better to leave everything for tomorrow. Shut it down before the BMS could kick in so I guess I'll know tomorrow if the systems are working properly.


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## ivaniclixx (Apr 11, 2010)

Hello, my name's Iván, this is my first post and sorry in advance if It's a little off-topic, and sorry for my English too .

Well, my question is, what's the reason you've purchased those components (controller, charger and even the motor) from China? what was the price for every piece, or was It a bulk pack?

Because looking for usable AC motors and controllers with a decent power, I found out (a few weeks ago) those components:

30kw nominal, ~55kw peak power, and ~200Nm max torque AC motor
http://www.electro-vehicles.eu/shop/details.asp?prodid=EVE02&cat=0&path=47,60

And a controler with full support and customisation for regen, reverse, and so on:

http://www.electro-vehicles.eu/shop/details.asp?prodid=MES04&cat=0&path=48,63

Do you think they would match and they would be worth It?

I think I should create a new post to comment the conversion I want to make ( the most similar possible to existing Toyota RAV4 EV, 77Ah, 288v, NiMH technology, about 200Km of range...).

Thank you in advance and, after reading the whole thread I must say I'm impressed with your insistence dealing with faulty hardware and the support you've received from the people of the forum. My sincere congratulations!

Iván.

PS: I'm from 86', so I think I'm going a bit too late compared to you


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

Iván, welcome to the forum! (86? I feel so old)

I have never seen this before but that system you posted looks very good. I really like the water cooling for both motor and controller.

The best advice I can offer is to contact the company and ask them if that motor and controller are compatible. Generally AC induction motors and controllers work the same way, but the programming in the controller can be different from one motor to the next.

For pricing, I paid about $3660 USD for my motor and controller.
For the battery, I paid about $17000 delivered to our door (that price is high by today's standards).

The charger came with the battery, so thats why I used the chinese hardware for the battery. So far, the charger and battery work perfectly now that I figured them out. Back when I ordered the battery, there were no suitable retailers in europe, or north america, so I contacted the company in china myself and negotiated a sample order first. After testing the sample I ordered the full battery. I documented my sample testing on another thread here.

Today you can get better batteries than me, and they are sold by distributors in local countries that make things much easier than what I had to deal with. Currently Sky Energy seems to have the best battery and is sold by a few businesses that I hear good things about.

My biggest regret so far is not going with a higher voltage battery. Even the company I ordered the motor from would have likely had a much easier time if I had used a system voltage of 288V or even 320V. 144V makes things very difficult, but I thought I had a source for a good motor in california that ended up falling through. By then, the battery was already ordered. Even the motors you posted are much higher voltage than 144.


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## ivaniclixx (Apr 11, 2010)

Hi David,

I'm glad to hear from your quick response (thanks for that).
Ok, that's more or less what I was hoping to read.
My plans are to go with at least 288v and 77Ah as I said; I'm not sure about the battery chemistry because I'm sure NiMH is a good technology in talking about long-term life battery packs -or maybe I'm too much excited every time I see texts o videos about Toyota RAV4 EV's fantastic NiMH EV-95 pack-.
I will, probably by another post, keep you informed about my choices in battery (and results) wether I go with Lithium of NiMH. Surprisingly I've found out that LiFePO4 are currently cheaper than big sized NiMH packs -from Nilar-. For example, using LP100Ah 12v 100Ah (at http://gwl-power.tumblr.com/tagged/quote) for just 304€ the unit !

Anyways, keep up the good work and thank you again for your response.

Best wishes,

Iván.


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## JRoque (Mar 9, 2010)

Hello David,

You have probably answered this question a few times but now that you're driven the car some would you still have purchased this motor/controller combination or would you opt for a 3 phase system?

I've been searching for weeks now for a good 3 phase motor in the 50 to 75 HP range. I've come across plenty of industrial type motors but they all weigh in at >500 lbs - a substantial weight gain from my current ICE. The same company where you got your BLDC has now a water cooled version that runs from 24V to 600V DC, nice! I would much prefer a 3 phase system but I'm coming up empty handed from all my searches. If everything else fails, I guess I can always go for the HPGC AC50 and Curtis combo.

So what can you say about your BLDC setup?

Regards,
JR


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

JRoque said:


> Hello David,
> 
> You have probably answered this question a few times but now that you're driven the car some would you still have purchased this motor/controller combination or would you opt for a 3 phase system?
> 
> ...


Actually I don't think anyone has specifically asked me that before (although I'm sure you are all wondering!)

Considering what I paid, I really can't complain even after all the problems with the controller. So far the car will comfortably cruise at 50 MPH and seems to have some room on top of that. The AC systems that are available in a similar price range typically don't have the efficiency of the BLDC system I used.

I was drooling over those water cooled BLDC motors and would have really liked to get my hands on one of them, but those ones couldn't be modified to run on 144V in the time I needed so they scrambled to try and slap something together in the NEMA 132 frame air cooled motor that am I now running. They did try......

Overall, I would have a hard time recommending the company to some one else however. Their workmanship was not up to par and if you do order something from them, understand that you must thoroughly inspect everything before running it. Maybe they have got their act together since my experience though so its hard to say. On paper, they have what appears to be a great product, but I don't know if they are willing to back it up. To their defence, they did offer to take the controller back and service it in their factory, but I made the decision to repair it myself at my own cost.
I had already modified the case of the controller, so they could have simply voided my warranty based on that alone if they wanted.

I haven't looked for motors for a little while now so I can't be sure if the efficiency advantage for BLDC still applies today (in comparable price range). Thats one disadvantage for the AC50/curtis combo that I can see right now. Efficiency still only just peaks around 90, which isn't really any better than a warP 9" brushed motor (although with the AC50 you still have regen).

In case you are wondering, I did get a price quote for a higher powered water cooled setup an that was around $7200USD. I can't remember if that was for a 30/60kw setup or if it was a 50/100 setup, I think it was for the 50/100 setup.


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

Ok, another weekend another drive. Total distance today was 41km. I have another video that I need to clean up a little before uploading. So far the car is performing well and can hold 50 MPH even up gentle hills when asked. I haven't attempted higher speeds then that today.

The charging system passed another recent test so the integrated battery harness seems to be working properly. The BMS module is still separate from the car, but that will eventually be integrated too. For now, I can finally recharge the car properly and safely without having to pull the cells out and charge them on the floor like I did before.

External motor temperature is at 50C after a harder run.


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

Couldn't help myself. I took one more drive today so that brings the total distance for this charge up to 58km (35.4 miles). Battery voltage is resting at 159.6V and I'll try a recharge tomorrow sometime. Here is the video from earlier today:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qJxWkhpbMzM


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## JRoque (Mar 9, 2010)

Hey David, thanks for answering my questions and I'm glad you could make sense out of them. I was very tired last night when I wrote that. 

Wow, awesome video! And you're passing cars like nothing, that's great. Over here where I live, I have to do 70 MPH for safety reason. Miami, FL is the capital of rude (and dumb) drivers and I'd get creamed if I didn't keep up. But, the driving you did on that video is about as much as I would need to drive in terms of time on an occasional basis. In fact, I think I can live fine with a 30 mile range tops.

Is 3rd your high speed gear? Does it draw too much current on higher gears? There's a tiny whine at low/starting speeds. Is that the controller's PWM or is that the transmission?

JR


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

Next chance I get I'll switch to a better camera that has better so the sound playback comes through a little better. The noise you hear at the top end of 1st gear is the motor noise itself. Around the middle of the video, you can see I downshift for a steep hill decent. All the noise there is from the motor since its likely turning close to 5000 RPM at that point before the RPM limiter prevents runnaway acceleration (so now I know for sure it is capable of regen!).

The motor controller does make some noise, but its not audible in the video. It sounds similar to a curtis wine or like a squeaky disk brake (but not as loud).

In this last video, I got up to 3rd gear and a top speed of 80 KPH (49 MPH). Not sure if you noticed but right after the cut in the video, I make a right hand turn onto a 4 lane main road but don't accelerate right away. After getting passed by that police cruiser, I accelerate and hold pace with him. That cop was doing 80KPH in a 60KPH zone. Not unusual for my area. I have serious doubts that my car is capable of 70 MPH though. I have heard of florida drivers from other sources too lol. I guess we still get to call it miami vice.

3rd takes me up to about 90KPH-100KPH (55-61 MPH) going slightly downhill and limited by RPM. I'm not sure how high 4th would take me on flat ground but as far as gearing goes, I got up to 110KPH (67.2 MPH) going downhill and think I still had RPM left. Same spot uphill, dropped to 70 KPH (42.8 MPH), so as my last test suggests, I'm looking at an averaged top speed of about 90KPH, or 55 MPH - for now.

Funny little incident that happened after I stopped filming was when I pass a couple kids riding one of those imported chinese electric scooters. Younger one was driving, the older one was hanging on for dear life. I would guess they were doing 35KPH in a 60KPH zone where I passed them doing 70KPH uphill. Sometimes we see the wrong solution to EVs on our roads.... Too bad I didn't get that on video it was an ironic moment for me.


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

Recharge time for yesterday's driving was about 2.5 hours including the BMS phase. There are still a few cells that are out of balance and I will have to keep an eye on them. In particular one cell keeps getting too high and I had to shut down the charger near the end. The BMS cannot actually burn off charge at the rate the charger dumps it in, so a minimum level of balance needs to be present before the system can be stable enough for repeated automatic cycling.

I might have to get *creative* to knock that higher cell down if repeated cycling does not correct the condition.

There are about 4 cells that are a little on the low side, so charging them separately on the 12.8V charger I have might bring the average pack voltage high enough to allow the charger to cut out before that high cell gets in the red. Once I have a stable cycling and it shuts off at a safe level, it should be downhill from there.


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## JRoque (Mar 9, 2010)

Hey David, to cure out of balance cells in your pack, run the charger at "floating" charge for 24 hrs.. or for as long as you can. If that's not possible, maybe moving the cells with the higher voltage closer to the controller helps them burn off current quicker - counting on the small reduction in resistance the first cell has between it and the controller. I imagine those issues will go away over time as you use the pack more and more.

BTW, I'm contacting your motor/controller maker to see what they quote me for one of those >45kW units. I'm anxious to start my project and already purchased my donor car.

JR


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

What are you accomplishing by trying to keep charging the other cells when presumably the smallest capacity cell is already full? Your total pack capacity will still be limited by that smallest cell. I've just spent quite a bit of time draining all my cells to exactly 3.00 volts so they are bottom balanced. I'll stop charging when the first cell hits 3.45 volts or so, knowing I can't get any more range by putting more energy into the other cells.


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

JP;

The idea is that they are automatically balanced at the top instead of the bottom and it would happen every single cycle automatically. I would rather spend more time at the top end of the cycle than the bottom end so thats where I would rather have the cells balanced. That setup worked well with my sample battery so I will try and make it work as the manufacturer intended.

While you might be correct and this might be a smaller capacity cell, no one can really say if that is the case right now because the total battery pack has never been cycled all the way down. I suspect its not a case of a smaller capacity cell and instead one that is simply charged higher than the average, like an idoit, I also installed it right on the end of the string where the charger tends to put more in anyway. Time will tell if I'm right though.

If it is indeed a case of one cell that is so different from the rest in terms of capacity, then I might even consider taking one cell from the sample battery and swap it since I will get much more use out of the big battery than the small 12.8V pack.

But for now I will continue running it, and monitoring the recharge to see where things end up. Gradually I will have to bring the DOD deeper and deeper each time, or as deep as I feel is safe.

JR, 

I was trying to get it up to the float stage but it couldn't quite reach it this time. If I had let that one cell get to 4V it probably would have made it but didn't want to do that. If I can get it up to float the next time around, I'll let it run like that all day if needed.

I think it should be ok once I can get past this initial "break in" and get the stability for the BMS to handle the pack on its own. The sample was not well balanced out of the box either but over time cycled closer together.


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## JRoque (Mar 9, 2010)

Yes, you should be fine after a while. 

The way I understand it is that a "floating charge" means that the voltage is kept constant at a level that is slightly above your battery's rest voltage. For example, if your cells are 3.2V, your floating voltage might be 3.65V or thereabouts. If you keep a constant voltage at that level, all cells - assuming they are in good condition - will catch up to this voltage and match all other cells. 

It sounds like you're charging at constant current and hope that all cells arrive at the top at the same time. There will likely always be a cell or two that get there quicker and because they are fully charged, and now draw little current, their voltage will continue to rise to possibly unhealthy levels.

I would have expected the BMS to detect a cell full charge signal and switch to CC for the rest of the cells to catch up. Doesn't it?

JR


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

That's the benefit of bottom balancing first before full charging, once you start charging you find your smallest capacity cell since it will be the first one full. You don't end up wasting time and energy trying to put more energy into the larger cells which will never be used. My 36 100ah cells range from 110-114ah, so by bottom balancing I put 110ah into all cells. Adding an extra 4ah into the other cells gets me nothing. Bottom balancing also means that no single cell will ever be driven lower than the others and damaged, and pack voltage will give a good indication of SOC near the bottom.


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

My car surprised me today:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6HXB5KkBFNE&feature=player_embedded

Total distance today was probably no more than 35km but I finally took it to the open freeway to see what it could do. Its not the road warrior that my F250 is, but I'm still happy with the progress.

More testing is needed to pin down what the actual top speed averaged out for both directions on a given stretch of road, but for now I am comfortable with jotting down 100KPH. I've updated my garage profile accordingly.

Hands were shaking slightly when I got home. Then I smelled some smoke.


This time it was just some one across town burning some yard waste. whew.....


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## JRoque (Mar 9, 2010)

> I smelled some smoke.....it was just some one across town


I hate it when that happens.....

Congrats, David! I'd say 55 MPH is pretty drivable and anything above that is gravy. Did you check your amperage at that speed? Was it maxing out or do you think you can throw in 5th? Sometimes motors consume quite a bit of energy just trying to keep the high RPM. You might not get a large jump in amp consumption if you go to 5th gear and bring the motor RPM down. Or maybe that's me wishful thinking...

BTW, I contacted the company that makes your motor/controller. I got a quote form them for a 45/100kW system that looks pretty good (about $5K). I'm still going back and forth trying to get them to answer all of my questions. Of the 6 emails I've sent already, 5 asked them to confirm if the motor quoted was indeed water cooled as they say on their web page.

JR


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## PatricioIN (Jun 13, 2008)

Good progress.. it's always scary the first time you get on the highway! I almost never need to do so, but took mine out a couple of weeks ago just to make sure everything was still ok at 70mph. No worries, but it sure sucks down the amps.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

JRoque said:


> Sometimes motors consume quite a bit of energy just trying to keep the high RPM. You might not get a large jump in amp consumption if you go to 5th gear and bring the motor RPM down. Or maybe that's me wishful thinking...


I certainly found that to be true with my AC31, I can do 60 in second gear but I'm pulling much more amps than in third.


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

Interesting....I might have to try 5th after all. Top gear is pretty tall as I remember and even the original 100Hp engine had a hard time on some hills in 5th. There was a close ratio transmission with lower 5th gear available though. I haven't run the numbers yet, but I think the motor was just about out of RPM when I touched 120.

I can't be sure, but the car seemed to hold speed at the bottom of that last hill. The freeway zone was ending though, so it was time to come in for a landing

I'm not running any instrumentation yet other than the speedometer. Now that work is picking up again, it might be time for some shopping.

And yes, it I was nervous as hell on that highway. Its a car killer in the summer! Basically, there is no extended areas of flat ground. Only long, lazy hills. I often see steaming engines on the side of the road when I cruise by in my diesel.

JRoque, you should also ask about any optional interface the controllers might have for PC tuning. Looking at the specs on their website, some are available with that. Mine doesn't have it but it would be nice if I could adjust things like regen, throttle mapping and max power settings. Doesn't hurt to ask.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

I don't think I'll ever see 5th gear in mine, not even sure about 4th.


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

JRP3 said:


> I don't think I'll ever see 5th gear in mine, not even sure about 4th.


I was quite surprised to see how usable 4th gear was for me. Only time I ever ran 5th was on blocks and no load. After the last drive, I might just have to try it.

You have at least 1/3 more RPM than me though. I don't know about running under load, but taking a reading right off the bare motor shaft, I only have about 4400 RPM max.

How does yours to for 2nd gear starts?


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Pretty good on the flat, a bit sluggish on hills at first but once you get going a little it will accelerate uphill quite well. The weak throttle ramp makes it feel as if nothing is happening when you first hit the pedal, I'm learning to mash the pedal then letup a bit as the throttle ramps up. I don't know why they programmed it so lame, unless it's setup that way for golf carts and forklifts so you don't go flying into something.


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

Sounds like yours is the opposite extreme to the throttle map in mine.

It feels like a stick shift 4x4 in low range. Gobs of torque to climb over curbs at very light throttle but it can be a little jerky at low speed. In fact if I'm not careful during a shift it can grab hard enough to trip the power cut off. Although I seem to be getting used to it and haven't tripped the failsafe mode for the last few drives.

Would be nice if it erred a little more on the side of torque control and less on RPM control. It is a blend of the 2 but would like to tweak it eventially if I can. I also have to verify that the POT in the pedal is working properly. If it comes right down to it, I could even just make another POT with a mechanical throttle ramp that suits my taste better.

I've tried 2nd gear starts but it seems a bit sluggish for my taste. Usually I just prefer to start in 1st and then 2nd pulls well above 25 MPH.


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

I'm recharging the car at the moment. Pack voltage was resting at about 159.6V if I remember right. Total distance this time was 70km and most of it was mild highway speeds

The car is a joy to cruise around in even if a little underpowred.

To try and deal with the single high cell I charged the rest of the pack for about 20 min then connected the high cell back in to proceed with a normal charge cycle.

We'll see what happens....


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

That's what I did with a few higher cells I had, I bypassed them and connected them in parallel to each other so they would equalize, charged the rest of the pack up to their level, put them back in series, then drove around to pull the pack down to around 3.15 per cell since I'm bottom balancing. Then I hooked up a 12 volt halogen headlight to 4 cells at a time to get them down to around 3.02 per cell, then used Dimitri's bottom balancer to pull each cell to exactly 3.00 volts.


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

Worked like a charm, but I think I over did it slightly. Still wasn't able to reach the float stage because another high cell was reaching 3.84V. Probably not hurting anything but still I don't want it that high. I might try your parallel trick. Come to think of it, I might have some spare headlights lying around to drain the high cells manually like you did.

All I have to do is find them.......


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## Coulomb (Apr 22, 2009)

david85 said:


> To try and deal with the single high cell ...


David, why did you have a single high cell? Is it just that the pack isn't balanced yet, or did you have reason to replace one cell?

You're still with 45 China HiPower 100 Ah cells, right?


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

Actually I'm not exactly sure if these are hipower batteries. The brand name is in my garage profile(long name). Could be they are a distributor. Anyway...

Not 100ah, and not 45 of them. 48 cells, 200Ah. For reasons I won't complain about, they added 3 extra cells the battery so I guess you could say the nominal voltage is 153.6V depending on what standard you are using. My guess is they wanted to anticipate voltage sag and overdesigned the pack slightly for me. Again, no complaints.

These are the first cycles of the battery so its early stages. Before I was able to get the main charger to work, I did my best to charge the pack 4 cells at a time using my 12.8V charger that came with my sample in 2008. It could be thats where some of them got out of balance. Or maybe some were out of balance from factory. I have not substituted any cells in the pack and so far, don't think I will have to.

The nice thing about my remote BMS setup is I know exactly which cells are the highest since the LEDs on the module are numbered to match the connections to the battery and I numbered each of the cells. Until I get a minimum pack stability, I won't be charging it unattended. There are a few of them that are a little higher but the one was a bit more so.

In reality, the battery is probably charging to 98%, it just can't quite reach the float stage without going past 3.8V on some of the cells.

It should be ok once I get past the initial "break in" if I can use an ICE term

Did another short trip today (about 60km on highway) and will try to recharge again tomorrow.


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## Coulomb (Apr 22, 2009)

david85 said:


> Actually I'm not exactly sure if these are hipower batteries. The brand name is in my garage profile(long name). Could be they are a distributor.


Oh, "Zhuhai Sanchuan Electronic Technology Co.Ltd". Sounds like a distributor for HiPower cells (also known as Shenzen or similar I believe). I bought one evaluation cell (high rate) from them. (Direct from CHP, not your distributor).



> Not 100ah, and not 45 of them. 48 cells, 200Ah.


Ah. So all 48 are installed in boxes?



> For reasons I won't complain about, they added 3 extra cells the battery


Chinese companies often add about 2% to an order in lieu of warranty. They figure that about 2% will fail under warranty, so why not save postage and send them with the original order. You're pretty lucky, since 3 in 45 is over 6%.



> so I guess you could say the nominal voltage is 153.6V depending on what standard you are using.


I'm seeing 3.2 used as the standard more and more. 3.0 is common when comparing them to lead acid, or packaging them in blocks of 4 (so 48 V for a block of 16, when they are really 51.2 V). Sometimes I see 3.3 VPC or more used, when someone wants to impress.



> My guess is they wanted to anticipate voltage sag and overdesigned the pack slightly for me. Again, no complaints.


Err, as long as the controller is designed for the 48*3.4 = 163+ volts it could see soon after charging, and possibly 48*3.6+ = 173+ volts it could see during charging. (I think controllers should always be disconnected from the pack when charging).



> I have not substituted any cells in the pack and so far, don't think I will have to.


That's great to hear!


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## Coulomb (Apr 22, 2009)

david85 said:


> Not 100ah, and not 45 of them. 48 cells, 200Ah.


Oh, and I forgot to be impressed by your pack's capacity. 200 * 48 = 9600 Ah, very close to the magic 10,000 Ah that represents "pretty darned good range".


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

100 miles come hell or high water!!!!!! Bahahaahahahaaa

Sorry, still a little high from the drive earlier today.

Huh, never thought about it in terms of amp hours before. I always thought in terms of KWH but 10 000 is a nice number. Funny thing is when I tested my sample I observed that the batteries can actually store more than the rated capacity and can be as high as 210 ah in my case. I've seen sky energy discharge projections for the first 500 cycles that show as much as 10% above rated capacity within the first 1000 cycles (I think it peaked at the 500 mark but I can't remember now). Normally I would dismiss such projections out of hand if I hadn't seen it for myself. I realize SE cells are not identical to mine but they still use similar chemistry and seem to perform very similar.

I don't think the extra cells were for warranty because the BMS and charger are intended for use with 48 cells. Although in theory it should work even if not all are connected. Never tested that though. I have enough balancing problems as it is without leaving 3 cells out. Even if a few die, I have the sample to cannibalize if needed.

All 48 cells are in boxes and installed in the car. 18 in the trunk below floor level and the remaining 30 in the front. Weight distribution seems to be perfect. Still have to take it to the scales to have it weighed but I think I am still fairly close to the original 60/40 front rear weight bias. Handling seems good enough. A bit more body roll and the tires feel a little more "gooey", but it still corners ok.

The controller should be ok too. I went through great pains when ordering it to explain that the battery will have an operating range of 144-172VDC. The spec sheet that came with the controller states something like 175 as the max voltage and somewhere under 100 for minimum. In reality the battery gets charged to about 177 when still connected to the charger, but rapidly burns off to a resting voltage of anywhere from 162-166 after charging stops. 162-163 is typical after resting overnight.


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## Anaerin (Feb 4, 2009)

Coulomb said:


> Oh, and I forgot to be impressed by your pack's capacity. 200 * 48 = 9600 Ah, very close to the magic 10,000 Ah that represents "pretty darned good range".


You might want to check that math. AIUI, when cells are connected in series the voltage increases and the capacity (Ah) remains constant, when they're connected in parallel the capacity (Ah) increases but the voltage remains constant.

Thus he'd have either:

48 * 3v = 144v, 1 * 200Ah = 200Ah,
or
1 * 3v = 3v, 48 * 200Ah = 9600Ah

And I don't think you're going to get much motive power from 3v.


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## zwmaster (Nov 23, 2009)

Anaerin said:


> You might want to check that math. AIUI, when cells are connected in series the voltage increases and the capacity (Ah) remains constant, when they're connected in parallel the capacity (Ah) increases but the voltage remains constant.
> 
> Thus he'd have either:
> 
> ...


It is importaint that it has 30,7kWh total stored power and up to 60kW of peak power from this cells. And that gives still a good range and dynamic performance for daily use.


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## Anaerin (Feb 4, 2009)

zwmaster said:


> It is importaint that it has 30,7kWh total stored power and up to 60kW of peak power from this cells. And that gives still a good range and dynamic performance for daily use.


Of course. It's an impressive build, of which I am more than a little jealous.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

My 100ah SE cells all showed between 110-114ah on the test sheets that came with them. I haven't tested them to verify this but the amount of charge the pack took after bottom balancing them to 3.00 volts suggests this to be accurate and in line with what others have seen from SE and TS LiFePO4.


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

I think coulomb knows how the battery is rated and how it functions once deployed in the car lol. When you order them from most suppliers the order is processed in terms of the amount of Ah your purchase. Whatever metric you are using and however the batteries are actually wired, 3.2 x 9600 or 153.6 x 200, both equal 30.72kwh.

Both are an expression of how much energy content is theoretically available.

Once I get the car fitted with proper meters I might try to do another testing thread. Its a little pointless now, since it seems confirmed that these batteries made by TS, SE, or even HP are indeed good products, but it would be fun.

Oh, and the constant power of the battery is rated at 1C or 30.72 kw. Peak is rated at 5C or 153.6. Peak C duration in the documentation for my battery was defined by the manufacturer as 15 seconds or less. This was another reason I wanted to go with a high capacity battery because the C rating of this battery is relatively low. Scaling up the battery helps reduce the risk of over current.


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

Couldn't quite get to a float charge today but all but 1 of the cells came up to full charge according to the BMS and I still kept the highest cells around the 3.8V range so there is some progress there. I think if I keep cycling it like this it should be ok and will eventially become more balanced. Probably just take some time.

Today marked a friendly milestone when I had to drive into town for $7 worth of hose fittings. Finally I don't have to use my truck for that anymore

On the way there I drove down a steep hill in 1st gear and the controller automatically limited the speed to 45kph. It seems to behave like a speed governor and gradually increases resistance the further you go past the peak RPM. That was nice because that hill usually requires engine braking and friction brakes. I avoided that route on the way home because its a main artary and don't want to get in a bog down situation with traffic backing up behind me.

I have discovered that there is indeed regen braking even below redline (if I can call it that). Its just very weak. For casual driving on flat ground, I can avoid using the friction brakes almost completely. And when you think about it, its gentile driving like that which helps maximize range anyway. Eventually I will figure out how to increase regen but for now I am learning to work with what I have a little better.


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## Coulomb (Apr 22, 2009)

Anaerin said:


> You might want to check that math. AIUI, when cells are connected in series the voltage increases and the capacity (Ah) remains constant, when they're connected in parallel the capacity (Ah) increases but the voltage remains constant.


Yes. 10,000 Ah is such a high number that I hoped it was understood that the batteries aren't actually wired in such a way that you achieve 100 A for 100 hours, or anything like that.

Think of it as the energy in the pack, divided by the voltage of one cell.

Or: the theoretical capacity of a pack that was theoretically connected all in parallel.

I like it because there is the magic round number to compare it with, and it's independent on what voltage you assume for the pack. The average voltage will depend on many factors including how it's driven, so it's hard to nominate a figure that everyone will agree with. Just look at how hard it is to agree on a nominal voltage for the pack.

The other thing about it is you can get a feel for how much it would cost for that capacity, as David85's already mentioned. For example, EV components sell CALB cells at US$1.25/Ah. For a 9600 Ah pack, that's 9600 * 1.25 = US$12,000 plus whatever you pay for freight, import duty, port fees, etc. 

Finally, it's pretty easy to calculate; just two numbers to multiply: the number of cells, and the Ah capacity of each cell.

Well, maybe it won't take off. But I've been using it myself for a while, and I like it.


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## Anaerin (Feb 4, 2009)

Coulomb said:


> Yes. 10,000 Ah is such a high number that I hoped it was understood that the batteries aren't actually wired in such a way that you achieve 100 A for 100 hours, or anything like that.
> 
> Think of it as the energy in the pack, divided by the voltage of one cell.
> 
> ...


Sounds like a great Bang/$ reference. A new unit of measurement! How about we name it the Coulomb? Oh, wait...


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

Finally got started on the vacuum booster today (yes, I've been driving without power brakes, yes, it stops just fine). Almost there but I need to get one more fitting. Some testing in the driveway seemed to work so I might just get it in tomorrow unless something else comes up.

The pump is installed inside the vacuum chamber and bolted directly to the front end cap so it can't move once installed but is also very easy to remove and install if I have to later on.

The bolt threads should self seal, the wires will be sealed later. One thing I want to mention here is the fuel lines in the car make excellent vacuum or pressure lines and can be quite fun to work with. With some heat, you can bend them, stretch them, open up an end with a hot mandrel and you know they will never rot, crack or break anytime in the lifespan of the car or me for that matter. That twisted and contorted little black line was originally a completely strait piece of fuel line.

I'm pretty happy with how it turned out.


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

Anaerin said:


> Sounds like a great Bang/$ reference. A new unit of measurement! How about we name it the Coulomb? Oh, wait...


Actually that method of capacity measurement comes direct from the factories and distributors in china.


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## JRoque (Mar 9, 2010)

> fuel lines.... With some heat


David's fuel lines have been dry for a long time 

And how are you powering that pump, David? Some attach it to the brake lights so it runs only when you press the pedal. I wonder if that gives enough time for the pump to pressurize the lines. If there's a delay, hopefully its small.

JR


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

I just hooked mine to the key switch, once the system has vacuum it will only kick back on when the brakes are pressed anyway, no delay. You don't want to hit the brakes and have to wait for vacuum to build


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## JRoque (Mar 9, 2010)

> You don't want to hit the brakes and have to wait for vacuum to build


I agree! So yours, and hopefully David's, shuts off when pressure has built and cycles on/off as needed? Any special vacuum switch you used?

David, how much vacuum (in Hg, I guess) do you need in your lines for safe braking? I read somewhere that 15 to 20Hg should be enough but that seems rather low.

JR


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Yes, mine is set to about 16 inHg which seems about normal, turns on and builds vacuum and shuts off till the vacuum drops again when you hit the brakes. I bought the pump used and it came with the switch, not sure what type it is. I may need to replace it as sometimes it short cycles.


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

My pump runs on traction pack voltage. Got a tip from rctous that they are available for really cheap at surpluscenter.com. I've never had a thomas 12V pump in front of me, but it seems to run a little quieter and I really can't complain about the price. Its also thermally protected so it will shut down automatically if it gets too hot.

Brian also sold me a nice adjustable automatic cycling swtich and I have tested it with a hand pump to turn on at below 16hg and off at around 22. I don't know how much vacuum my pump can really pull but it will manage well in that range. The vacuum pump that came from factory in my diesel truck (diesels don't pull enough vacuum to run power brakes) seems to hover around 21 hg at idle and I've been told anything over 20 is acceptable for that particular vehicle with 22 being ideal. Never looked up the specs for a gasser.

I'm not sure if 15 Hg will be enough for me on the low side, but I'll know more once I get it running. Anything is better than manual brakes though!

Can't be 100% sure yet, but I think my vacuum pump can also hold the tank shut when turned off, so I might not need a check valve for it.


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

Well as much as I would like this to be a nuclear reactor, particle collider, flux capacitor, or heck even a retractable potato gun......its only my vacuum reservoir ready for install.


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

Here are the details on the install itself. The tube doesn't reduce ground clearance, but does completely use up the length of the center tunnel. All the forward lines for wiring and vacuum are tied together and routed up into the [former] engine bay. Still love working with this old fuel line and I almost used all of it up. All thats left is to wire in the cycling switch which is located within easy reach in front of the motor controller. Since this car will be a test platform for the foreseeable future, I figure having easy access to the power brake settings would come in handy. Will take pictures of that once I finish.


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

Not really much to see here but its done and I have power brakes. Gouged some gravel in the driveway and its goint to take a little getting used to. I'll have to let it sit overnight to see if I succeeded and have a completely sealed setup. I get about 2 hard braking events before the pump kicks in. No road tests yet so I'll have to see how it performs in real conditions.

I ended up setting the vacuum switch to 14-19 hg range instead of 16-22. Ideally the lower the better since its easier on the pump and reduces power consumption.

I will have to make a muffler eventually but for now its probably not going to be noticable unless creeping around under 2 MPH. Part of me wants to route the exhaust of the pump all the way back to the rear bumper to simulate the original emissions package. I know, silly. But I am like that sometimes.


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

I am now at 94km (57.434 miles) since the last charge. Pack voltage is resting at 158.4V 1 hour from the most recent shut down. Again, this is mostly at mild highway speeds of up to 80-90 kph (49-55MPH).

Power brakes seem to work fine and will easily pitch an unsuspecting passenger to the windshield if needed (so far not needed).

At this point I am getting a little restless because I still don't have a reliable estimate for the range of the car based on what I am seeing so far. 94 kilometers MUST be past the half way point though.......it has to be.....

I'm thinking of fitting the car with a bumper tow setup so it can be dragged home by another vehicle. Not a bad thing to have in case of a breakdown but also in case I drive out too far for a safe return on the battery charge.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

What's the brand and number on that switch? What size is the tube on it? I need one with more hysteresis so it doesn't cycle as often.


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## JRoque (Mar 9, 2010)

> 94 kilometers MUST be past the half way point


Well... keep in mind that you have a LOT of amperage in there. While mere mortal's batteries die after a while, yours keep ticking due to the extra capacity. So what you might lack in speed (voltage) is compensated by range (amperage).

The tow link might be a good idea but check with your local cops on that since they only want tow trucks to do pulling. Or you can sneak which works too. When I'm ready with my conversion and ready to find my range, I plan to throw a generator on my wife's car and have her follow me. When my bats die, I'll whip out the gen and have a 3 hour lunch while I'm charging. I'm sure she's gonna "love" that 

JR


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## joshg678 (Jan 25, 2009)

David,
looks like you need to clean up that brake boosted, looks a little corroded.

Get you self a nice solar panel that is the size of your roof and if you run out of juice just pull over and take a nap and you might be able to get home! lol


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

JRP3 said:


> What's the brand and number on that switch? What size is the tube on it? I need one with more hysteresis so it doesn't cycle as often.


I'll see if I can get a more clear close up on the switch. I thought I already had such a photo but I can't seem to find it right now. If you look on your vacuum thread, I did post a link to the manufacturer's website showing the exact switch I have.

The line I am using is probably about 1/8" inside diameter. Its probably just the vent line to the carbon canister of the car.


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

JRoque said:


> Well... keep in mind that you have a LOT of amperage in there. While mere mortal's batteries die after a while, yours keep ticking due to the extra capacity. So what you might lack in speed (voltage) is compensated by range (amperage).


My estimates were based on *similar* cars that were close to the final projected weight of mine and ran similar sized lithium batteries, but none so far had the BLDC setup that I'm running so its hard to really say for sure how far it can go. I'm half tempted to try and drive another 60 kilometers before charging to see if I can verify the 100 mile goal, but I really should focus on balancing the charging setup first.



JRoque said:


> The tow link might be a good idea but check with your local cops on that since they only want tow trucks to do pulling. Or you can sneak which works too.


Don't think there will be a problem with that, since RVs around here are always pulling a small SUV like a vitara or even pickup truck using the same method I will use. But I have it very easy around here when it comes to DOT rules. I didn't even have to get my car inspected to get insurance. Just told her it runs on electicity now and she changed the papers to show "fuel type: elelctric". We also built two trailers that are used on highways that were never inspected either because they are insured for 3200lbs or less. We am really spoiled up here in that way although I suspect older provinces like ontario would have much tighter rules.



JRoque said:


> When I'm ready with my conversion and ready to find my range, I plan to throw a generator on my wife's car and have her follow me. When my bats die, I'll whip out the gen and have a 3 hour lunch while I'm charging. I'm sure she's gonna "love" that
> 
> JR


lol, no comment. Your on your own with that one.



joshg678 said:


> David,
> looks like you need to clean up that brake boosted, looks a little corroded.
> 
> Get you self a nice solar panel that is the size of your roof and if you run out of juice just pull over and take a nap and you might be able to get home! lol


Yeah it looks like crap. Eventually the whole car will probably get stripped down again and details like that will be addressed.


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

JRP3 said:


> What's the brand and number on that switch? What size is the tube on it? I need one with more hysteresis so it doesn't cycle as often.


OK, I have the info. There is no part number on the switch itself but there are numbers in the instructions that came with it.

Anver Corporation
www.anver.com

1) Normally open: VSPN-ADJ-NO, VSPN-ADJ-NO-L
2) Normally closed: VSPN-ADJ-NC, VSPN- ADJ-NC-l

3) Normally open or normally closed: VSEL-ADJ-NCNO, VSEL-ADJ-NCNO-L

Those show 2 part numbers for each version. I have the normally open or normally closed verion (3rd one).

This should be it: http://www.anver.com/document/vacuum%20components/vacuum-switches/vsel-adj-ncno!.htm


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

david85 said:


> If you look on your vacuum thread, I did post a link to the manufacturer's website showing the exact switch I have.


Yeah, I sort of remembered that after I posted  Too many threads I can't even keep track of my own


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

JRP3 said:


> Yeah, I sort of remembered that after I posted  Too many threads I can't even keep track of my own


I think I can relate!

Got the car weighed today. 1780 on the front, 1060 on the rear. That puts me within spitting distance of the nissan leaf (which has a smaller battery) if I would have taken out the fire extinguisher that I had on the rear footwell of the car.

Total weight: 2840lbs. Oh yeah baby!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Still not quite finished and it could work out closer to 2900 but thats still under the 3000 I was hoping for.


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

Oh, and I almost forgot. I finally got the battery into float stage after nearly 4 hours charging. The extreme high and low cells are also much closer together right at the top.


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

As a little side note, I've noticed lately that the conversion section of the forums is getting pretty active. A day or to and I have to dig my thread out from page 2 or 3 if I don't post any upgrades. Well done to all of you for keeping this area so active.

Back to my car, I've now passed the 100km barrier over the course of 2 days driving (102km or 62.3 miles). Battery is resting at 158V after sitting overnight without any noticable drop in performance. Nearly all of my driving to date has been right around dusk with ambient temperatures usually not much better than 10C.

I will recharge the car and then perhaps plan on longer distance run. 158 is still only about half way down to the 153.6V thresh hold where the cells finally get to 3.2V each. I prefer not to drop below 3V each and will consider 3.0V the 95% DOD point even though I am told 2.5V is safe. I don't know how quickly the voltage will drop off from 158 to 153.6 and eventually 144, but for now the car seems to be showing a drop of 1V per 20km of distance in this relatively high state of battery charge.

It will be exciting to see how that average discharge map compares for the bottom half of the charge cycle.


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## Jan (Oct 5, 2009)

Hi David, more info about your range yet?


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

Hi Jan (and others), sorry for dropping off the map but I do have some updates.

Last test I did was 100km all at once, then another 23km after letting the car sit overnight (without recharging). The first 100km was mostly mild highway speeds (up to 60 MPH sustained), involved a significant elevation change and some stop and go traffic - no egg shell acceleration. Only on the second 23km trip did I start to notice a slight power drop. Basically the motor lost some full throttle RPM at the top so I had to upshift sooner. Torque however didn't seem to have changed noticeably. I suspect temperature is also playing a role here because I noticed the batteries tend to run about 5 degrees warmer than ambient ~10 (C) after a longer drive. By letting it rest overnight, the battery had a chance to cool down so that could be part of the performance loss. It stands to reason that so far down in the discharge, it would be more noticeable. 

I was still however able to reach 50 MPH and trip the high current protection but kept it close to home and off the highways for the last 23 kilometers. So as of right now, I have a 70 mile range confirmed.

About 3 weeks ago I noticed an unpleasant grinding noise when accelerating harder or up a steeper incline. I guessed it was the CV shaft rubbing against the frame. Eventually I confirmed this and found some of the motor mount bracket was cracked allowing the motor to sag. When under load, the torque roll causes the shaft to just barely reach. In hindsight it was a pretty weak spot where it broke (right next to a bolt hole).

2 weeks ago I tore all of the EV related stuff out of the front of the car. Batteries, controller, motor, DC/DC converter - everything. Then a few days later I had my wisdom teeth pulled so that knocked me down for a about a week (still can't open my jaw properly). Work is starting to pick up again and now this week is completely booked so the car is in pieces right now. Aw well, never a dull moment.

This week, I looked up a semi-retired machinist that did work for me a couple years ago (milled down the pistons that are in my truck). I had him turn down the end housing of the motor to make it completely flat instead of just raw casting face. It wasn't off by much but I still want it to be perfect (he did an awesome job). I also asked him if he could make a bolt flange for me so I could attach the OEM flywheel of the car again. He seemed to be interested in the project and said he could do it.

The adapter plate and motor mount brackets may end up being completely redone at the same time. Now that we know a bit more and got a chance to see the car in action it makes sense to do some improvements now when everything is out. Clutchless shifting was a neat idea, but it proved too complicated to drive, and even a little unsafe. Dad had a harder time with it and I realized that the car would make a poor "ambassador" if I'm the only one that knows how to drive it. Being underpowered is bad enough but getting caught in a gear change uphill can be a real nuisance for me and the drivers behind. That didn't happen, but still its something that might. Not to mention the higher gear grinding risk.


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## tomofreno (Mar 3, 2009)

> So as of right now, I have a 70 mile range confirmed.


 And much of it at 60 mph. Very nice!


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## mrbigh (Dec 31, 2008)

I'm sorry but, again; can you state your batteries type and brand?
I also remember you'r using a BMS; is it from the same battery supplier?
tank you


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

mrbigh said:


> I'm sorry but, again; can you state your batteries type and brand?
> I also remember you'r using a BMS; is it from the same battery supplier?
> tank you


 
No worries,

Lithium iron phosphate or LiFePO4. Battery consists of forty-eight 200Ah cells wired in series for a total of 30.7kwh of reserve. Mine are rated at 200amp constant or 1000amp for 15 seconds. So thats 1C constant and 5C peak. 

The exact supplier is listed in my garage profile but I suspect they might be originating from the Hipower factory. Same with the charger.


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## Dave Koller (Nov 15, 2008)

This is still looking good David!

NEXT Saturn will be AC lol!


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

Maybe. Although I'm still far from reaching the limts of what I have right now. If what I learned is correct, BLDC motors have their disadvantages, but also have certain advantages in efficiency. Not positive but I think their efficiency range is wider than asynchronous AC motors. Peak efficienct can also be higher.

Just wish I had a little more knowledge and tooling so I could slap a system together that meets my standards of "good enough".

I wouldn't buy from this particular company again if thats what you mean. More likely I would try and just make a controller and motor from scratch. AC systems have come a long way in the last 5 years but I'm still not quite satisfied yet.


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## Dave Koller (Nov 15, 2008)

david85 said:


> I wouldn't buy from this particular company again if thats what you mean. More likely I would try and just make a controller and motor from scratch. AC systems have come a long way in the last 5 years but I'm still not quite satisfied yet.


Oh ya! You have shown us the light on that group! .. My AC will be of my own design ( with a little inspiration from the SRG and some of the boys over at EcoModder. )

Never should be satisfied - it is what keeps use going and improving


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

Dave Koller said:


> Never should be satisfied - it is what keeps use going and improving


Well said


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

Whew, FINALLY back on the project!

I got my parts back from the machinist and now have what I need to put the clutch back in, well, 95%.

This will be a multi post explanation with lots of pix, so bear with me.

Here are the parts as he gave them back to me. The fly wheel has been lightened, and the spline coupling has been welded to a steel flange. The flange also has a nice spigot in the center to line it up perfectly with the center - that was his suggestion actually. Over all he did an excellent job.

Not sure what to do with the ring gear, but it looks cool


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

I decided to drill and tap the flange myself since it would save a little on the cost and the machinist was already quite busy with other jobs (he is supposed to be retired LOL!)

We made a center punch that was 10mm wide to get a good center mark for each hole using the flywheel as a template. Accuracy is not 100% critical here since the hub is self centering anyway. First pass was a pilot hole, second pass was the tapping hole.

During the marking process, I used a long thick bolt and wide washers to clamp the hub to the flywheel to be sure they didn't move while driving the center punch.


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

Now for the tapping phase. This was a pain to do and took a good 3 hours but much like a mythbusters montage, you guys get to see the final product without sitting around for hours on end.

A little trick I learned a while ago is to tap a scrap piece of metal using the same die, then use that as a guide for the tap when cutting the threads on the actual piece. In this case, I used a piece of 1/2" aluminum and again, clamped it down through the center of the hub. This saved me a lot of extra effort but in the end it actually stripped on the 6th bolt. Pop took over and managed to muscle the last holes. I know I'm going to be sore tomorrow trying to put my full weight on that thing trying to make it bite.


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

And its done.


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

Next on the todo list is to find another push rod for the clutch slave cylinder since evedently I lost the original

And we have to drill and accurately locate the end housing of the motor to the new adapter plate.

After that, I can finally start re assembling the car. Once I can get the motor and transmission back together, I can work on a stronger motor mount that hopefully won't crack like the old one.


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## karlos (Jun 30, 2008)

david85 said:


> A little trick I learned a while ago is to tap a scrap piece of metal using the same die, then use that as a guide for the tap when cutting the threads on the actual piece. In this case, I used a piece of 1/2" aluminum and again, clamped it down through the center of the hub. This saved me a lot of extra effort but in the end it actually stripped on the 6th bolt. Pop took over and managed to muscle the last holes. I know I'm going to be sore tomorrow trying to put my full weight on that thing trying to make it bite.


That was a good trick with the aluminium. I hope you had a taper tap to start with, makes it so much easier


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

karlos said:


> That was a good trick with the aluminium. I hope you had a taper tap to start with, makes it so much easier


Actually it was, but being metric 10x1 pitch it was quite a challenge to get it started. The quality of the tap was also quite poor and it was worn out by the 6th hole despite constant lubrication. We had to do some makeshift sharpening before the last 2 holes could be finished.

Oh well, thats what you get for off the shelf parts......I can't even blame the chinese on this one (made in USA!)


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## TigerNut (Dec 18, 2009)

david85 said:


> A little trick I learned a while ago...


Another way to do it, is to clamp your piece onto a drill press or vertical mill table. Put a centerpunch (or a nail - anything that's reasonably hard and with a decent point on it) into the machine chuck, and use that to hold the tap in alignment with the hole, and also to apply the downward pressure. Prior to threading the hole, you can put an appropriate size drill bit or transfer punch into the chuck to make sure the hole to be threaded is directly under the chuck.


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

TigerNut said:


> Another way to do it, is to clamp your piece onto a drill press or vertical mill table. Put a centerpunch (or a nail - anything that's reasonably hard and with a decent point on it) into the machine chuck, and use that to hold the tap in alignment with the hole, and also to apply the downward pressure. Prior to threading the hole, you can put an appropriate size drill bit or transfer punch into the chuck to make sure the hole to be threaded is directly under the chuck.


Thanks, I'll have to remember that for next time.


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## JRoque (Mar 9, 2010)

David, nice update! 



> I can't even blame the chinese on this one (made in USA!)


Man, my first thought was that you were using China stuff. That's a shame. Could it been the pilot hole was too tight? I use Tap Magic for tap/cutting oil even on the CNC and it works great. 

BTW, MSC is having a special on cutting tools, 35% off until today: http://www1.mscdirect.com/cgi/imland?cm_mmc=Email-_-1006-_-CTB35W-_-TopLink&epcode=CTB35W. The discount code is: CTB35W.

JR


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## joshg678 (Jan 25, 2009)

Cool stuff!
You should totally use that ring gear as a Frisbee.


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

Started work on the conduit for the under floor power leads. 
I opted for 1" ID tubing since 3/4" might not have allowed the metal end connectors to pass through and I'd rather not have to redo the soldered ends just to thread the wires through.

The tubing it quite flexible but I still had to use the heat gun trick again to get a tighter bend for the hole on the side of the box shown here.


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

So here's what I used. LOL, this marks the first time I am using parts that are completely made in canada. Wish that was an option more often

The parts are basically compression fittings made out of UV rated PVC. You can assemble them completely by hand and they WILL NOT come apart easily afterwards.


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

Here's how they work.

The nylon insert (clear white) has a hex head on one end to match a socket in the main grey PVC body. This allows you to thread the nylon insert into the end of the PVC tube. Again, this is done by hand. No special tools required.

The compression seal (big yellow ring) and clamping nut can be forced over the end of the nylon insert but ideally those should already be on before hand.

Tighten that down and the conduit is now water tight to the fitting.


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

Now the end can be clamped into a hole in any sheet metal without fear of it working loose or cutting through the wire and causing a short (which is generally frowned upon).

The nice thing about this setup aside from being very safe, reliable and water tight, is that it can be taken apart at any time without having to cut anything or risk damaging any of the parts. Its completely servicable.

Not sure if anyone has documented this before but I thought I would post it in detail in case it will help anyone else. I thought I died any went to haven when the guy at the electrical supply shop explained how this stuff worked. Very happy with the system so far.


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

Here is the through wall plate that I am working on for the rear box entry since all i had before was some rubber grommits and I am not very confident they will provided enough protection to the traction leads over the course of many years.

The aluminum plate is drilled and tapped for 1/4" ss screws that will attach the plate to the outer wall of the rear box. Then there are 2 larger holes in the plate for the through wall conduit fittings. It seems a little complicated, but what I like about this method is its servicable down the line. If for whatever reason I change something in the box or wiring, I won't have to make new holes somewhere else again. Just this plate will have to be replaced. This also offers some extra re enforcing for where the wires pass through the wall. They do add some extra weight and I figured its better safe than sorry.

Had fun tapping this part for a change. Loaded the die in the cordless drill (also lithium powered) and shot through on the first pass every time.

I got as far as mounting the plate in the car with all 6 holes, but didn't get far enough to cut the passing hole for the conduits. That will come tomorrow.


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## JRoque (Mar 9, 2010)

Very nice! I have a smaller version of those conduits on both my AC units at home.

What's their temp rating? Not that you will have as much heat as with the ICE but don't want to melt it if it touches the motor, for example. Are you routing that conduit inside the cabin or under the floor? Hopefully under, through the exhaust channel. This is probably somewhere in this thread but, what size wires are you using for your HV bus?

JR


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## joshg678 (Jan 25, 2009)

Thats pretty cool.
Make sure you pull some twine down the conduit every time you pull a wire so its easier to pull the next wire through.


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

I'm not using this anywhere near the motor. Only for the long, exposed HV leads that connect the rear trunk box to the front batteries. One goes from the rear box direct to the controller, the other goes from the rear to the middle box. The idea is more to protect the wires from road debries and offer a little extra insulation. I won't be using this for under hood wiring since its too bulky to connect the controller to the motor. The motor is also hidden behind a metal skid plate and all the rest of the parts are well protected. I will still use a VERY NICE water tight through wall fitting however, more on that later.

My best guess is the outside of the motor might reach about 60 degrees C, but I've only measured about 50 so far (after getting home). The internal insulation is rated to 155C. That reminds me though, I really want to figure out some sort of temp sensor inside the motor before I put everything back together.

The main leads will be routed under the floor in the center tunnel. One on each side of the vacuum booster assembly.

I might have to use twine to thread the wire through, but there is so much extra room inside, I might also be able to just push everything through.


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

Rear conduit connections are done, sealed, bolted and everything. One of them already has the lead threaded through, but the other one sill has to get cut and routed for the controller end.


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

Well the clutch, flywheel and new adaptor plate are done - I hope.

Man, this took way too long but one thing after another kept getting in our way. Clearances inside the bell housing are very close and a few changes had to be made. From the outside things don't really look any different so more pictures are kinda pointless. I might not be able to work on the car tomorrow, but I think I'm ready to start putting things back together when time does permit.

I'll have to tear down the transmission to clean everything out since we had do mount the front half of the case in the CNC machine several times and its full of cuttings. Had to be done to make sure everything was accurate though.

And I do think its accurate as it can be. I assembled it temporarily and rolled the shaft over by hand and it seems to be good but I won't know for sure until I am able to power it and work the clutch. I even made my own locating dowels on the mini-lathe and even though the are interference fit in both the transmissio and the adaptor plate, they just pop in.


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## JRoque (Mar 9, 2010)

> I even made my own locating dowels on the mini-lathe


Com'on man, share pics of that. Maybe it's just me, but it's always interesting to see custom work like that. From all the work ahead of me in my conversion, this mechanical part of joining the transmission to the motor is what keeps me up at night (figuratively speaking, of course).

JR


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

JRoque said:


> Com'on man, share pics of that. Maybe it's just me, but it's always interesting to see custom work like that. From all the work ahead of me in my conversion, this mechanical part of joining the transmission to the motor is what keeps me up at night (figuratively speaking, of course).
> 
> JR


Yeah ok that was a bad call. In my defence I was beat last night. Spent the whole day out there and maybe half under the car and half helping with the adapter plate.

So here is the long story then:

The adaptor plate is made of 4 plates in total, with 3 of them being simple spacer rings that are held together by a pattern of 6 bolts - not much change there. Then an accurate pattern of 3 bolts 3/8" diameter (recycled bolts from one of my ICE builds) is drilled clean through everything to attatch the motor directly by the end housing, instead of using long exposed stems from the main motor body like before. Much cleaner this way and the bolt stems act like locater dowels for each segment of the adaptor and also accurately locates the motor end housing at the same time. There were no locater dowels before. Combine that with the long exposed length of that 8mm bolt stem and there really wasn't a lot to locate the motor to the transmission.

The 6 bolt pattern is countersunk, while the retaining nuts for the motor itself (3/8 grade 8 engine bolts) are sunken in a counterbore. the bolts had to be custom cut down, as did the nuts to get satisfactory running clearance to the flywheel. Not really hard work, just time consuming. I measured the running clearance with some artist's clay and its about 1/8" between the flywheel and the closest part, which is the retaining nut for the motor.


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

The flywheel did have some flash rust on it and I was thinking to have it resurfaced ($40), but just for the heck of it, I tried a polishing pad in the grinder and it came out clean without digging in at all. I think it will be ok since I won't need to feather the clutch ever and the motor is only capable of about 70 ft/lbs of torque peak.

Hub bolts have red locktite and were tightened to 50 ft/lbs.
Centered the friction disk the best I could by eye (no pilot bearing on saturns it seems), and then installed the pressure plate, again with red locktite.


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

ok, now for those locater dowels between the transmission and the adapter plate. Originally I tried to buy some split ring dowels when I was unable to remove the original dowels from the engine. Ended up being a total waste of time because they were too small and too short. Thought maybe I could open them up a little, but nope - total loss.

This piece of pipe with the plumbing cutter on it, is proof that it pays to be a pack rat. Its actually from an extension handle that broke off an air travel carry on bag years ago. It also just happens to be a very close match for the size we needed. So maybe an hour and a half later of me learning how to run the mini-lathe I had what I needed. Clearance in the bell housing side was slightly wider, so I turned the plate side of the dowels about 5 thou smaller to get a perfect snug fit on both sides.

The pipe was not perfectly strait and the cutter ended up tearing in while trying to make the second piece. The cold roll was also a predictably low quality so thats what tore open. Had enough material left to make the other one though. Lesson learned there is not to try and turn a length of tube that long especially when dealing with such a thin wall. Thin it may have been, it was still a bit stronger than the OEM dowels if you can believe it.


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

On to the transmission. The dowels were pounded into the bore using an aluminum block to protect the end from the hammer. They are not comming out without being destroyed now, but I can be sure they are perfectly centered. I would also rather like them to stay on one side of the mating joint than have one come out with the adapter plate if for some reason it ever has to come apart again.

I hope you guys can see the details in the close up shots. I'm trying to show the bottom of the factory bore in the bell housing. That prevents the dowel from working too far into the bell housing side, while the head of the bolt prevents it from working out on the adapter plate side.


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

As you can see in that last post, I put a generous chamfer on the adapter plate to help guide the tight dowels into the plate. Seems to work great when I put the motor and transmission together for the next set of photos.


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

I don't have all the bolts I need just yet, but here is the motor and transmission attached together temporarily with only 3 of the 6 bolts required. I was also really happy with how accurately the edge of the plate follows around the CV shaft seal. The previous plate was a little off in this area. As you can see, the transmission will need a very thorough cleaning before everything is made perminant.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

Great project, I don't get to pop in very often but is great to see the progress.



david85 said:


> Rear conduit connections are done, sealed, bolted and everything. One of them already has the lead threaded through, but the other one sill has to get cut and routed for the controller end.


Just a point, where your cables pass through two holes you should really cut a slot between the holes to make the holes effectively one hole.
Otherwise you end up with a bit of metal that has one turn of cable and a very high voltage and current running around it. With AC you will get eddy currents inducing a current flow and in DC you will end up magnetising the frame in that area.


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

Woodsmith said:


> Great project, I don't get to pop in very often but is great to see the progress.
> 
> 
> Just a point, where your cables pass through two holes you should really cut a slot between the holes to make the holes effectively one hole.
> Otherwise you end up with a bit of metal that has one turn of cable and a very high voltage and current running around it. With AC you will get eddy currents inducing a current flow and in DC you will end up magnetising the frame in that area.


Thanks, it can be hard to keep track of all of them because there really are some great builds going on here.

The wires that are routed in condiut which I showed earlier, only have DC current going through them and the metal box itself is aluminum. Do you think I still might have a problem?


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

david85 said:


> Thanks, it can be hard to keep track of all of them because there really are some great builds going on here.
> 
> The wires that are routed in conduit which I showed earlier, only have DC current going through them and the metal box itself is aluminum. Do you think I still might have a problem?


Well, it may only be a small problem but whenever a cable is wrapped around a metal it will induce a current to run in the metal. When it is a ferros metal then it can be exhibited as a noticable magnetic field that will induce a current to flow when ever the field is raised and collapsed. So an AC current is obvious but a DC current that is switched on and off will do the same.

In aluminium a magnetic field is still induced. This is how maglev works and also how a recycling plant 'shoots' aluminium cans off the conveyor. 

Have a look at this wikipedia page. Someone who can still remember how to do the maths may calculate that the effects and losses are negligible. I don't know anymore it has been too many years since it was drummed into me to saw slots between holes.


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## Dave Koller (Nov 15, 2008)

david85 said:


> On to the transmission. The dowels were pounded into the bore using an aluminum block to protect the end from the hammer. They are not comming out without being destroyed now, but I can be sure they are perfectly centered. I would also rather like them to stay on one side of the mating joint than have one come out with the adapter plate if for some reason it ever has to come apart again.
> 
> I hope you guys can see the details in the close up shots. I'm trying to show the bottom of the factory bore in the bell housing. That prevents the dowel from working too far into the bell housing side, while the head of the bolt prevents it from working out on the adapter plate side.


David, I did mine just the opposite! I used a bolt to set them to the depth needed for the block... My dowels were NEW OEM and fit snug but not tight... did a dry test WITHOUT the motor! I COULD NOT remove my old dowels from the engine block LOL ...


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## joshg678 (Jan 25, 2009)

That is pretty sweet looking!
I always wanted to make an EV saturn with the clutch, i wonder if this will give you smoother performance.

Also with the added rotating mass, you might get more regen out of it.


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

Honestly Josh, I'm really not sure what to expect. Maybe it will run smoother and a little quieter? I have no idea. Regen has always been weak but it gets much stronger as you reach the peak RPM of the motor. If nothing else it will now become a usable engine braking setup now that I can downshift to bring RPMs above 4000 when driving. That will allow for controlled descent of longer hills and prevent burning the brakes like described earlier.

I've tested this at 30 MPH and at about 50 MPH and it does have significant braking effect that eases in after a certain RPM thresh hold is passed. Would be nice to have a dynamic braking effect based on the pedal position but I'm not able to do that yet.

Dave, Maybe pounded was too strong a term. I tapped them in and the aluminum block was a precaution more than anything else. Although I doubt I would be able to remove them at this point. Using a bolt was probably smarter though. If there is a next time, I'll do that instead.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

joshg678 said:


> Also with the added rotating mass, you might get more regen out of it.


Don't see how that would matter.


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## joshg678 (Jan 25, 2009)

JRP3 said:


> Don't see how that would matter.


The more rotating mass you have the more energy it takes to slow the car down, Thus giving the possibility of additional regen.


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## GizmoEV (Nov 28, 2009)

joshg678 said:


> The more rotating mass you have the more energy it takes to slow the car down, Thus giving the possibility of additional regen.


And the more energy it takes to get it rotating so it will provide a net loss in energy consumption. I doubt that it will be very noticeable, however.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Exactly. The amount of regen available has to do with the speed and weight of the vehicle, and of course the terrain.


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## Dave Koller (Nov 15, 2008)

JRP3 said:


> Exactly. The amount of regen available has to do with the speed and weight of the vehicle, and of course the terrain.


I will third that - I left my clutch as more of safe fall-back - I am not AC but will be the next time lol....


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

Yeah sorry, I should have been more specific when I answered earlier. No change in range will be noticed with the flywheel since its basically akin to adding more weight in the trunk. It can carry you further on momentum, but only after you defeat the extra inertia to get it up to the same speed as before. A net gain in range is not possible.

I was thinking more along the lines of how fast the motor RPM will drop to allow an upshift when in neutral or with the clutch in. In a way that is where any changes in regen performance will be noticed but only in how fast the motor RPM can drop. Doesn't affect range.


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## JRoque (Mar 9, 2010)

Awesome posts!! I'm drooling over all of those pics. Thanks for the extra effort of posting and explaining everything in detail.

I agree the flywheel won't do much in term of extracting energy out of it. If it does something, perhaps it will keep the motor RPM steady while you're shifting, and that's good.

One question: what in the world is "feather the clutch"? Hopefully it doesn't involve a goose and glue.

JR


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## Anaerin (Feb 4, 2009)

JRoque said:


> One question: what in the world is "feather the clutch"? Hopefully it doesn't involve a goose and glue.


Fortunately not. Wikipedia has more, though you might also know it as "Slipping the clutch".


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

LOL yeah slipping the clutch I guess is more descriptive. Come to think of it, how the heck does "feathering" even relate to slipping? Maybe I don't want to know

Slipping the clutch is what makes it possible to drive an ICE without having to shut off an engine every time you come to a stop, and restart every time you pull away. Steam engines for example can start pushing right at zero RPM (though still not quite as well as an electric motor) so they didn't usually need a clutch. Torque converters operate almost like an automatic clutch that simply starts to transfer torque above a certain RPM (called stall speed) only instead of solid parts sliding, its simply a fluid coupling. And if you're not confused yet, most automatics now have a torque converter clutch for when they are up to cruising speed because fluid coupling alone can't produce a zero slip transfer, and slip wastes energy in the form of heat (think friction brakes). This is where the general rule of automatics being worse for MPGs comes from. These days it doesn't really count anymore with the advent of lockup torque converters. Although many stick shift purists may disagree

All of that however is pointless with electric motors since they don't have to idle and rev up to a power band in order to get a few thousand pounds of car moving. So without having to idle and slip my clutch, it should last as long as the rest of the car.

Anyway. The innards of the tranny are all shiny and clean after a couple hours at the parts washer. Don't know how I ever got by without one. I'll leave it to drain and air dry overnight since solvent is generally not a very good lubricant.

Hope to be able to assemble it tomorrow. For those of you wondering what the inside of a saturn manual trans axle looks like, here ya go:


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## joshg678 (Jan 25, 2009)

Ahh yes, seen many of those taken apart. They are a good trans with the exception of the diff.
My 94sl2 had 150k miles on it when i sold it to my parents and it was the original clutch. Not to mention i put that clutch through you know where for 30k miles lol.

Point being, you won't need to replace that clutch im sure.


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## TigerNut (Dec 18, 2009)

david85 said:


> Anyway. The innards of the tranny are all shiny and clean after a couple hours at the parts washer. Don't know how I ever got by without one. I'll leave it to drain and air dry overnight since solvent is generally not a very good lubricant.
> 
> Hope to be able to assemble it tomorrow. For those of you wondering what the inside of a saturn manual trans axle looks like, here ya go:


If your transmission has needle bearings on the mainshaft for the gears, then you should fill the transmission, spin it a bit under a very light load, and then drain and refill it again, because the solvent probably will not have evaporated from all the little nooks and crannies in the needle bearings.


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## Dave Koller (Nov 15, 2008)

Nice David..
My two cents - replace all the seals ....


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

TigerNut said:


> If your transmission has needle bearings on the mainshaft for the gears, then you should fill the transmission, spin it a bit under a very light load, and then drain and refill it again, because the solvent probably will not have evaporated from all the little nooks and crannies in the needle bearings.


Already thinking along those lines. I'll run it for maybe a couple hundred miles on strait, cheap ATF, then drain it. I'm actually toying with using a synthetic oil to see if there is any gain in performance (range). If you think about it, there's less than 3 liters of fluid normally in there, so I think I can risk it.



Dave Koller said:


> Nice David..
> My two cents - replace all the seals ....


Already have new axle shaft seals ready to install. Not sure if I can find an imput shaft seal.


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

joshg678 said:


> Ahh yes, seen many of those taken apart. They are a good trans with the exception of the diff.
> My 94sl2 had 150k miles on it when i sold it to my parents and it was the original clutch. Not to mention i put that clutch through you know where for 30k miles lol.
> 
> Point being, you won't need to replace that clutch im sure.


The original clutch was in great shape and we did thoroughly test it before the conversion haha, unfortunately I destroyed it to make my clutchless shaft coupler so I had to get a new (reman) setup. I used to be able to get just the friction disk for other vehicles but they only sold a clutch and pressure plate this time around. Oh well...


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## joshg678 (Jan 25, 2009)

david85 said:


> Already thinking along those lines. I'll run it for maybe a couple hundred miles on strait, cheap ATF, then drain it. I'm actually toying with using a synthetic oil to see if there is any gain in performance (range). If you think about it, there's less than 3 liters of fluid normally in there, so I think I can risk it.



I've always put synthetic Oil in my saturns (manual) and it does a pretty good job, always smooth shifting It does well with heat so its good.


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## dela (Oct 24, 2009)

Hi,
Its my first tread, I just want to thanks david for its very informative treads I have been working myself on a car (hyundai accent 2002)which I just started to test drive last week, I went with a BLDC motor(Chinese M&C 15-30kw 144v) with a kelly HP controller 500A. For now it seems to perform well I am using 12X12v lead-acid batteries. Thanks again.


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

dela said:


> Hi,
> Its my first tread, I just want to thanks david for its very informative treads I have been working myself on a car (hyundai accent 2002)which I just started to test drive last week, I went with a BLDC motor(Chinese M&C 15-30kw 144v) with a kelly HP controller 500A. For now it seems to perform well I am using 12X12v lead-acid batteries. Thanks again.


Welcome to the forum, dela.

If you get the time I and many others would be interested to see your car. Always nice to swap ideas and show off.


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

Here are photos of the reason for the recent teardown. The rear motor support bracket that I made failed.

A crack opened up from one of the holes where the motor support holds the axle support bearing. A crack was also starting at the top as shown between the arrows although it might not show in the photo.

The angle was 3/16" thick and overall dimensions was 1.5/1.5 inches. In hindsight, having the holes drilled so close to welds in such a light extrusion was a pretty obvious weak link and I should have known better.

I cut the broken beam off and used 1/4" wall 3x3 aluminum angle instead so it should hold better. The rest of the bracket assembly seemed to hold up well so it would have been pointless to make something completely new from scratch.


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

The new setup took a little while to put together piece by piece even though only one beam had to be replaced. 
There was still a lot of things that had to fit just right. Position the beam too high, and the battery box mounted over the motor wouldn't fit, too low and the support bearing for the axle shaft would not line up right since it has to fit below the horizontal web of the angle. Spacers also had to be the correct thickness to properly offset the support bearing away from the motor spine.

I also opted to make a much larger flange at the adapter plate end of the beam that can now spread cross 2 of the bell housing bolts instead of only one like before. This makes any sort of twisting impossible and also takes better advantage of the wider base the new beam has at that end. Should help stiffen everything up a little more.

Sure hope everything fits when it comes time to drop the motor back on (tomorrow maybe???????????) Only potential hitch I can think of is if the new beam ended up too high compared to the old one but I kept it as low as I possibly could so I think it will be ok.


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## BWH (Sep 26, 2008)

Looking good! 

Love the sparkling clean trans guts.


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## Dave Koller (Nov 15, 2008)

I like the BIG A$$ hammer you have alongside in one picture!!! ...


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

Sometimes a few gentile taps with a BFH is just what the doctor ordered. helps when working on the car too.

After lunch, I'm off to drop the powertrain back in. Wish me luck.


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

Guess some one did wish me luck after all, I got much further than I expected.

Motor, transmission, axles and most of the batteries are now in

Here is the motor showing the new rear support beam installed. The clutch slave cylinder and pedal installed again. I ended up taking a random 3/8" bolt out of a junk box - er - spare bolts box - and lobbed off the head then rounded both ends off. Ended up being the perfect length. So far the clutch feels quite good but I won't know for sure untill I can actually drive it. Something that seems likely to happen either tomorrow or some time this week at the latest.


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

So this is as far as I got so far today. If I am really ambitious I might go out again tonight.


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

david85 said:


> I will still use a VERY NICE water tight through wall fitting however, more on that later.


Here are the fittings I mentioned earlier for passing the raw traction leads through walls of the battery boxes or between the motor and controller without using conduit. The main plastic body has fingers on the end that allow a compression fitting to squeeze down a rubber seal around the wire passing through it. I tried using press in rubber grommets for this up until now and frankly I was never happy with them. They were prone to tearing and very hard to work with since they tended to seize on the wire after only a few days. All fine and dandy until you have to go in and change something that requires pulling the wire out again. Unsafe crap!

These on the other hand offer a hard plastic shell that makes it impossible for the wire insulation to break against the metal wall of the battery box in addition to the compressed rubber seal to keep water out. These can also be loosened again after some time and can be much more easily reused when modifications or some other servicing is needed. Had I known something like this was available I would have never wasted my time with grommets in the first place.

For the sake of demonstration, I'm showing a steel rod instead of the 1/2" wire that I use for all the traction power of the car.

The fittings are clamped in place with a special nut on the inside of the box (sold separately in my case). The local shop carries plastic nuts or in this case, a metal nut. The fitting can be sealed to the box with a gasket, O ring or in my case, I used urethane sealer. After its installed, simply thread the wire through and hand tighten the compression nut which ratchets in place against the plastic fingers on the main fitting body so it can't loosen on its own.


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## JRoque (Mar 9, 2010)

Nice work, David! It's almost done. If you have a clear head to keep it safe while connecting those batteries, go for it. Though sometimes it's good to step back, rest and look everything over with fresh eyes.

BTW, I agree with others, nice going with that transmission. I need to replace my 3rd gear synchro and I'm dreading the day I have to do that. I've been considering a spare transmission so I can work on my motor plate and coupler while still have the car running on ICE until the very end. This synchro replacing deal might be the perfect excuse to pickup a second (new) trans.

JR


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## Dave Koller (Nov 15, 2008)

david85 said:


> So this is as far as I got so far today. If I am really ambitious I might go out again tonight.


Gad David, no more of those "night" classic movies! 
But do take more in daylight - clutch'n an shift'n .


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

JRoque said:


> Nice work, David! It's almost done. If you have a clear head to keep it safe while connecting those batteries, go for it. Though sometimes it's good to step back, rest and look everything over with fresh eyes.


Very good advice there. Being tired around 160V DC can be hazardous to your health or worse, set you pack a few hours if something has to be redone.



JRoque said:


> BTW, I agree with others, nice going with that transmission. I need to replace my 3rd gear synchro and I'm dreading the day I have to do that. I've been considering a spare transmission so I can work on my motor plate and coupler while still have the car running on ICE until the very end. This synchro replacing deal might be the perfect excuse to pickup a second (new) trans.
> 
> JR


Not sure what its like for a used transmission for your car, but I've heard they are next to worthless for some parts of the USA when it comes to saturn transaxles. You should price out a synchro kit and a used transmission to see which gets you farther ahead. Something with low miles should be decent.



Dave Koller said:


> Gad David, no more of those "night" classic movies!
> 
> But do take more in daylight - clutch'n an shift'n .


Maybe I should publish a "director's cut" of that video complete with commentary.

-" and right THERE is where I drove over the old lady in the wheel chair, just around the corner I hit the dog but over all the car was running quite well so I pressed on."


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

Drove around a little today but it seem the coupler might not have worked perfectly. Its drivable but vibrates a little at certain RPMs. I'm guessing some slop on the spline coupling is making me some problems. So far I've come up with 3 independent plans to deal with the problem. 

1) have a new coupler made from scratch

2) have only the spline slip on replaced with a tighter one but try and salvage the the flange

3) hack the current coupler and modify it into a taper lock to completely remove and slop on the shaft.

Plan 3 is the easiest to do at this point and also still allows one and two to go ahead later if needed.

I'll get it one of these times.

The clutch itself does seem to work though. Whats different about this motor from most others is the RPM doesn't spike significantly when you pop the clutch. It makes for some interesting options when driving. At mid throttle I can actually drive very smooth by simply cycling the clutch, shifting gears and NOT letting up on the throttle. Smooth as silk believe it or not..... well aside from the vibration. There is a slim chance that something is simply rattling against the powertrain somwhere but I kinda doubt it.

On the upside the car seemed to have a bit more power than before. I didn't venture on the freeway but there is one shallow hill that normally maxes out at 75 KPH. Today it reached 80 instead. First time driving in mildly warm weather.

Worked late into the evening and thats when I got the CHIT scared out of me!!!!!

The car is fine. A bat flew in the shop and I'm glad no one was around to see my raction.

So far we've had robins, sparrows, and quite a few humming birds getting in over the years but never any bats. Caught me off guard because I was used to birds (during the DAY!!!) that see you right away and keep their distance by going to the farthest corner of the shop and staying there. The bat never flew into anything but flew very close to everything including me trying to find a place to hide. Guess thats just how they operate, really cool thinking about it now.

Eventually he crawled up into a small gap between a floor joist and the wall at the end of the shop and got real cozy - HECK NO! Sure, they're cute and have a role to playe killing mosquito's, but we don't need them squatting in the roof (they can be messy).

After traumatizing him with a few pictures I used a broom to gently encourage him out of his(her?) hidy hole. It was so cool to see how close it flew to all sorts of equipment, materials shelves and didn't touch anything in the dark room. Every bird that came through crashed into all sorts of crap LOL. After a few circles in the shop it flew out over my head.

Pictures are not very good but it was the best i could do. Yes, that little thing is what scared the crap out of me.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

david85 said:


> Pictures are not very good but it was the best i could do.


Right up there with your night video


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## Dave Koller (Nov 15, 2008)

LOL you should be at my farm and watch them come out of the vents on the old metal roof - I was up there in the evening fixing a drainpipe when they came out - I swear they all dove at me but I realized they had me in their radar and was a strange object to avoid.. 30 or 40 of them  !!

On another note suspect the flywheel is perhaps a bit unbalanced or jack it up and spin the wheels and check the transaxle support. Make note if it does this also in neutral (more flywheel or coupler as you say).. Can't remember if you have tach working but would be nice to see what rpm perhaps.....


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

Don't have the tach working but I can estimate RPM based on gearing and speedometer readings. Didn't run the calculation yet but I would guess its worst around 3000 RPM and unfortunately it will do it in neutral or when driving.


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## Dave Koller (Nov 15, 2008)

OK, now for the clincher .. clutch held in - in neutral what do you get?


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

Have to double check but I believe that produces a little less vibration. Maybe due to the throw out bearing pressing the flywheel/clutch assembly against the motor shaft.


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

Just checked and the vibration doesn't change if the clutch pedal is in or out but the sound of the vibration is a little different. Seems to be strictly RPM dependant. Have to run right now but I might try a wheels up test in the shop some time tomorrow when I might have some more time.


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

JRP3 said:


> Right up there with your night video


I deserve that


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## karlos (Jun 30, 2008)

david85 said:


> Just checked and the vibration doesn't change if the clutch pedal is in or out but the sound of the vibration is a little different. Seems to be strictly RPM dependant. Have to run right now but I might try a wheels up test in the shop some time tomorrow when I might have some more time.


Do you suspect the motor at all?


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

karlos said:


> Do you suspect the motor at all?


There was no vibration like this when I ran it clutchless so I don't think the motor is to blame.


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## karlos (Jun 30, 2008)

david85 said:


> There was no vibration like this when I ran it clutchless so I don't think the motor is to blame.


It's quite easy to bend a clutch plate, did it once myself by accidentally hanging a gearbox with it's shaft through the plate, thought I had bought a dud replacement (gearbox) till I worked out what was going on and yes, there was vibration!

Any chance of this?


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## Dave Koller (Nov 15, 2008)

If it is there with clutch in and in neutral.. I would most definitely suspect a harmonic wobble in the "flywheel" (slight imbalance) did you spin it up before coupling to transmission ? the flywheel and clutch assembly are balanced - SO the flywheel maybe so slight but adding the clutch housing (and it also has a slight imbalance) it may throw it more - rotating the housing may equalize it - well just a guess....


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

karlos said:


> It's quite easy to bend a clutch plate, did it once myself by accidentally hanging a gearbox with it's shaft through the plate, thought I had bought a dud replacement (gearbox) till I worked out what was going on and yes, there was vibration!
> 
> Any chance of this?


Actually it was tweaked ever so slightly before I even put it in. I noticed when I put the clutch and flywheel assembly on the input shaft of the gear box to see how it fit and spun. Noticed it had some wobble to it. Thinking more about this, I suspect it probably wouldn't have mattered if the clutch was installed on an ICE with a rigidly mounted flywheel instead of one that floats on a spine coupling. But yes, it does seem to be quite delicate.



Dave Koller said:


> If it is there with clutch in and in neutral.. I would most definitely suspect a harmonic wobble in the "flywheel" (slight imbalance) did you spin it up before coupling to transmission ? the flywheel and clutch assembly are balanced - SO the flywheel maybe so slight but adding the clutch housing (and it also has a slight imbalance) it may throw it more - rotating the housing may equalize it - well just a guess....


No I didn't try it before buttoning everything up, that would have been too smart. But I was also under some pressure to get this mobile again so the shop could be cleared. It only takes me one full day to tear down to the point of having the motor and transmission on the bench so if I have to do that its not the end of the world. Still no where near as dirty as pulling an ICE! I'll have to phone around to see who can do a balancing job on the flywheel for when I have the time to tear it down again.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

I have to give you props for perseverance and energy. I've never heard of someone tearing down and rebuilding their setup so many times. I get annoyed that I have to pull my throttle for the second time


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## JRoque (Mar 9, 2010)

> I have to give you props for perseverance and energy.


Think Joe Pesci: "yous gotta do what yous gotta do". But I agree, it would po me for a few days at least.

David, you did have the spline coupler welded to a flange, if I recall. Could it be that they didn't align that properly before welding? Perhaps finding it's center on the lathe and spinning it at high RPM might show if that's the case.

JR


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

The machinist ended up welding it himself. I wasn't expecting him to but I didn't complain when he handed it to me (weld was turned accurately too). I also had the part in our mini-lathe when I had to shorten it slightly and it is indeed very true and strait.

Compared to automatic transmission problems I had in my truck this is a cake walk. I don't regret that project either but man, that was a royal pain! 

Over all the car isn't really that hard to work on and can be taken apart and put back together fairly easily.


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## Dave Koller (Nov 15, 2008)

To what end I do not know - but this is the new flywheel and new every thing I put on my DC motor ---

Just to cheer you up - I went up to the farm last night and saw all of the "Brillo" like pads I put in the vents of the pole barn ridge ( to prevent blowing snow from going in) were out and laying on the roof, So I climb up there, no camera, of course - A huge Raven swoops on me and I try to scare it away - hmmmm they are smart... So I get them all back in - it dawns on me - THEY pulled them out looking for bugs! So I sit there - like an idiot... The big male lands 3 feet away from me and looks at me like "what ARE you doing" - No fear, he knows I could fall off any moment. I have to invent an electric wire to run inches from the roof vent - No, I would not shoot him - but I gotta discourage him - electric fence wire..... hmmmm now that is a varmint problem....


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Dave Koller said:


> I gotta discourage him - electric fence wire..... hmmmm now that is a varmint problem....


I had a similar problem once that I solved by stapling pieces of window screen over the openings. Talk about off topic


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## Dave Koller (Nov 15, 2008)

JRP3 said:


> I had a similar problem once that I solved by stapling pieces of window screen over the openings. Talk about off topic


Can't staple the metal but can maybe gorilla tape it - Yep, off subject - but David started it with his "Killer" bat .... all about distracting him from actual work..... And I know he has a sense of humor under pressure.....


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

Well this sucks. Found a dead cell in the battery pack today if everything else wasn't already enough.

Swapped it out with one from the sample battery and all is well in again. It turned out to be one of the cells that I marked as being a little low compared to the rest of the pack. There were a total of 4 that I marked as being a little on the low side. I guess this one finally had enough today.

I can't be sure if it failed while driving or during recharging but the nature of the failure is in an odd way, a little reassuring. All it did was puff up a little. No smoke, no heat, no sparks - nothing. It appears to be an internal dead short and the battery was still accepting charge when I discovered extremely low voltage on the cell. I'll probably perform a post mortem eventually. Was always curious what was inside them and I guess now is my chance.

Took the car for a this evening and while it still rattles, the power is normal like before. I was able to sustain 60 MPH for about 3 miles before hills slowed me down again. Motor temperature was checked at home to be 62C (measured on the outside of the case). The drive made me feel a little better but I can tell this car is going to need a great deal of work before it can be considered reliable.


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## Coulomb (Apr 22, 2009)

Do you clamp your pack? I believe that lithium cells tend to swell with heavy charging, so you have to clamp them to prevent this. It's slightly possible that too much swelling triggered an internal short.

There may have been a great deal of heat at one point, unless you think you caught it while charging or driving (e.g. noticing an abrupt pack voltage change of about 3.3 V). Impressive that nothing melted or oozed or burned.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

That's a shame. About how many miles do you have on the pack?


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

Actually this one was rather right where it was installed so I don't really know how to explain this incident. It was with actually wedeged in place. Probably under 500 miles on the pack so far. Sure hope this was a fluke.


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## dexion (Aug 22, 2009)

How dead is the cell?

There is a procedure to recompress the cell and it could become usable (but may not return to anything you can use it in the car with.) But it wouldnt hurt to try recompressing the cell and then seeing what you get out of it. Could be worth using it for something. Like a 3V light that lasts for 24 hours or something.


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

The multimeter shows continuity across the terminals and the reading is a mere 0.2 MV so I think its pretty dead at this point. Its strange that it would just quit like this and I have been monitoring it since it was always a little on the low side from day one. Aside from the swelling of the case, the only defect that is visible on the outside is a terminal nut that appears to be cross threaded slightly from factory. I have no idea if this really matters but maybe it had issues with how it was assembled.


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

Had a long day today and it aint over yet *checks clock* - oh, I guess it is after all

The parts from digikey arrived today when I was out on a long drive for business. Was a little beat when I got home, but on the upside I managed to hypermile my F250 up above 24MPG for a second time in a row As always, service from digikey has been awesome. I bought some CL-30s to try that trick that Dave Koller did for his DC/DC converter that hopefully will kill that annoying arc when its first switched on.

Right now its past midnight and I have some Bo Diddley tunes rocking on Utube to keep me going while I monitor the car as it charges.


The big story of the past week however has been a breakthrough I had with the charger thanks to finding an older descussion here:

http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showthread.php/questions-hi-power-bc3-charger-45226.html

*A big thanks goes out to dexion, genawin and jimdear2* because I now know how to adjust it so it no longer overcharges the battery. Before the charger would basically just force charge into the battery at 20 amps (measured on the AC side) right up to cut off. In nearly every case I had to intervene to prevent an overcharge of some of the cells. There was simply no way the BMS could keep up with such a high current so it was useless in balancing the cells until now.

For the first time the charger is actually showing current ramping down properly when measured and as seen in this photo, the lights are indicating charge, and near full charge. Before it would go from charge strait to all 3 lights turning on - again, if I let it get that high. The shot of the controller board shows 3 trimpots that control how the charger performs. One controls how early or late the ramp down in current occurs, another controls the maximum charge current and I'm not yet sure what the third one does. note the meter reading 0.88 amps instead of 20!

Now I can finally dial everything in and eventually get the charging system to where it can be left unattended. That would sure be nice. Another added bonus is that I can turn down the max charging current so I can actually keep the shop lights running while I work. Which comes in hand when you are working late enough for bats to be out and about


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## dexion (Aug 22, 2009)

I was thinking about the ramp pot. I don't think there is one there wouldn't be a need. I think you found the ending voltage cutoff and lowered it. Mine by default were set to 3.65: a cell which causes the cells to shoot all over since they aren't perfectly matched. I'm now at 3.5v a cell final resting voltage cutoff and the cells are happy and current ramps down.
Is the final pack voltage lower at the charger shutoff now? They go so fast from 3.42 to 3.5 I don't think there's even a mile of range there. It makes me wonder why they always set them to 3.65v a cell all it does is cause trouble.


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

You could be right about the "ramp pot". Whatever the case, its working much better now and mirrors the 12.8V charger perfectly in how it charges at high current and cuts it back gently near the top. I never had this problem with the smaller charger.

I agree 3.65 can cause instability and thats why I'm so happy to be able to drop the cut off voltage down below 3.65 because that was the exact problem I was having. Looking at the specs for the cells, the top cut off voltage is listed at 3.8V so in theory there is some wiggle room left but not a whole lot if you have a more significant imbalance between cells and we know the voltage curve turns skyward after about 3.45V. I'd rather not go above 3.6 if I can help it.

My batteries like to fall to around 3.4V after charging even if they are forced up to 3.5 each when the charger is still on. The butter zone seems to start below 3.4V from what I can tell, and thats where the vast majority of your amp-hours will be found.

But with the charger set so high, I couldn't get the lower cells (below 3.4V) up to where they need to be because the higher cells would get overcharged. I might even be able to eventually bring them all up to 3.65 if I gradually dial up the charger slow enough that the BMS can keep up. It will depend on how stable the battery is since reliability is the first concern here, not getting every last mile out of it.

If all goes well, I should be able to test if there is a worth while range difference to be had in going up to 3.65V/cell. I noticed about a 20-30% drop in run time when I was testing my 12.8V sample 2 years ago but it remains to be seen if that will scale up for something like this. Right now I just want to get the cells a little closer together. What I noticed back then is there was a difference in run time between allowing the battery to settle overnight and connecting it to a load immediately. After that incident I ran the all load tests immediately after reaching full charge and then it delivered consistent run times that allowed me to esimate the AH capacity.

Was a pretty crude test thinking back but it did the job.

If nothing else, the 3.6-3.7 top end cut off could be reserved for longer range drives that happen once in a blue moon and keep the lower cut off for the rest of the week. I can drive the length of my town half a dozen times before needing to recharge so I don't need to stress this battery unless I am going on a longer trip.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

I still don't see what you get by bringing any cell other than your smallest one up to or beyond 3.65? You won't get any more range than your smallest cell can provide.


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

JRP3 said:


> I still don't see what you get by bringing any cell other than your smallest one up to or beyond 3.65? You won't get any more range than your smallest cell can provide.


That cannot be proven right now because the cells are not balanced. That is my problem at the moment. I don't even know which cells are smaller or large capacity yet and I won't risk a deep discharge until I do. Right now some cells are still below 3.4V while others are full and weather some one uses top or bottom cell balancing, that is too big a spread.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

If you're a bit careful you can check them periodically on the way down. Unless something is really wrong with them they should be fairly close, close enough that going to 3.10 per cell average, then checking, then going to 3.05 average and checking, then 3.00, etc. At least with my SE cells, your drop off voltage may be a bit different, but you'd have to have a major imbalance to actually damage a cell by doing that, and it should start to show up before anything bad happens. It's a bit of a hassle to do but the piece of mind that a bottom balanced pack gives is worth it in my opinion.
After my extreme discharge excursion with an average 1.77V per cell under load I was worried that I may have caused an imbalance, so I did a bottom balance check. The largest spread was 0.1 volts, partly caused by using a cellog8 on my 7 smallest cells, and I rebalanced with a better volt meter to within 0.004 volts this time. The cells now come up to full charge even more in sync than before. I was actually considering replacing one cell that seemed to be weaker, (smaller), than the others but now it seems right in line. I don't know if "exercising" it has increased it's capacity or my earlier balancing with a cheapo meter wasn't that exact, maybe a little of both.


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

Well I remember reading that you need to fully charge the batteries to get full capacity. Don't remember where I read that though. But we do know that the capacity increases after the first few cycles so maybe that one low cell of yours just needed to be run in. I'm also impressed that you dropped down as far as ~1.8V each, although I guess thats not too far from the 2V thresh hold which I think SE claims. Been a while since I looked at their tech sheets so you will know better than me on that.

What I did notice is there wasn't much of a divergence problem with the sample at the top or bottom but again, it remains to be seen if that observation will scale up to a battery the size thats in my car. The car will draw just a bit more amps (just a little more lol)

Even the way my battery is, the spread disappears after maybe 10 miles of driving. I find it interesting that yours are cycling so close together at the top of your charge even though you did bottom balancing.

What I'm doing now is driving the car for maybe 10 miles at a time, then recharging it. Each time I recharge another 3 cells come into line on average and none of the older high cells go into overcharge. So far so good. I'll still keep an eye on them as they go down in charge for longer drives to see how they diverge, if at all.


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## El Rayo (Mar 23, 2009)

Thanks for sharing, David and everyone else! I'm following your progress with great interest.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

TS instructions say the battery needs to be fully charged before use, and that full charge is 4.25, (now 4.0 I think). Some people inferred that the cells needed to be charged to 4.25 before use, I and some others felt this was a misunderstanding and TS was just saying the batteries aren't fully charged when shipped, and don't charge them over 4.25. My argument is that all cells are tested at the factory for capacity, which means they are already cycled through a maximum charge at least once. SE cells never had the "full charge" recommendation. Charge cycle data does show that the cells do gain capacity during the initial 50 or so charge cycles. The data sheets for my cells showed them all tested between 110-114ah's capacity. SE cells are rated at 2.0V min voltage, but that's at rest. My 1.8V was under load and they were already at 2.4 and rising by the time I stopped, opened the trunk and put my meter on them. I should have waited to see where they recovered to but I was a little freaked out that I took them so low and wanted to get a charge into them. Not that it would have mattered at that point.


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

Ah, ok. I didn't realize the 1.77V was under load. Yeah thats a reasonable bottom end and I've taken my sample that low too (*EDIT: well sort of, resting voltage was around 2.5 and I had no way to draw enough amps to sag down to 1.77)*. mine are rated down to 2.5V and they are probably not as resiliant as the newer SE series. In my case, the amps start to drop off around the 3V mark so I don't plan to go below that if I can help it.

Well now I don't know what to think about the initial charge cycle lol. I'll just run the darn things and see how it goes.

On that note the car seemed to have a little more balls last night when I took it for another quick spin. I am noticing that the higher cells will rest around 3.5V each while the lower ones stay at 3.3 so there is definately some capacity left to unleash and I think I'm getting it one small piece at a time.

Right now I have a turn signal problem. Stayed up late last night trying to find some tech articles on it then I remembered I bought a manual for the car a year ago complete with wiring diagrams LOL!


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## Dave Koller (Nov 15, 2008)

david85 said:


> Right now I have a turn signal problem. Stayed up late last night trying to find some tech articles on it then I remembered I bought a manual for the car a year ago complete with wiring diagrams LOL!


What is it doing (or NOT doing) ? -


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

The front right hand corner was weak and frond and rear on that side would flash rappidly.

Turn on the parking lamps or headlights and I got no signal on that side of the car. Had to cut last night's trip short because of it.

Think I found the problem though. There is a silly little ground juction box taped to the wiring harness near the front right hand headlight. It uses slip on quick connects but none of the internals were greased or sealed from factory and that caused a dead ground for the front RH flasher after 14 years of wind, salt and rain.

Signal now works on that side at full brightness again, but its still flashing rapidly. Thinking to replace the flasher. I want to get one that is compatible for LEDs anyway (one that will flash at the same rate no matter how many bulbs are connected).

Here it is in case any other saturn owners have come across this problem. I'm at a loss to explain the silly logic behind this contraption. The least they could have done was assemble it with some dielectric grease to protect it. I'm going do drown it in something toxic to keep it from corroding again lol

If I trace a probelm down to this again, I'll cut it out completely and solder all the wires onto one single connection thats protected behind some heat shrink. Hmmm, maybe I'll do that anyway.....

I took it apart and cleaned off the copper plate you see here in the needle nose pliers.


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## Dave Koller (Nov 15, 2008)

Yep that's the one! Watch out if you use any of the pink wires (power not ground) from those same kind of "splice packs"... the rapid flash can be from a bulb out or with high resistance - Look for the solid state flasher for LEDS..

Don't let them sell you a "Resistor" to equalize the filament resistance to what the incandescent bulb was - that just defeats the low power of the LED to satisfy the blinker ... I have discovered a few of those with corrosion also... STILL gotta love the Saturn lol....


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

Ha! you knew right away what it was, didn't you?

Replaced the flasher and all is well again. They did try to sell me a resistor kit since they don't carry the solid state flasher that doesn't have the bulb-out warning feature. At $14 I have little to loose and will just run the car on old fashion edison bulbs until I can be more confident that LEDs can be bright enough. I tried a pair on the front and ended up in a confusing situation with another driver at a 2 way stop a while ago. My hunch is he couldn't see my signal. Nothing major and no gestures were exchanged but that incident was enough to take them off.

Evening or at night is no problem but in direct sunlight the ones I got are weak. I'm open to opinions from others on which ones might be bright enough to be safe.


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## GizmoEV (Nov 28, 2009)

dexion said:


> They go so fast from 3.42 to 3.5 I don't think there's even a mile of range there. It makes me wonder why they always set them to 3.65v a cell all it does is cause trouble.


I did a hand test with a TS-LFP100AHA cell. I charged it to 3.40V with a bench power supply. When the current was below 100mA I stopped. I then adjusted the power supply to 4.00V and hooked it up to the battery again and powered it up. I recorded the voltage and current 10 seconds or so until the current tapered off to around 100mA again and then calculated the number of amp-hours the cell took. I ended up with 0.25Ah which should be a little high considering I had such a large interval between readings. In my Gizmo I have buddy paired 100Ah cells so effectively a 200Ah pack. The "top of charge" is gone by the time I accelerate to 15mph. If I use my defrost heater which draws about 4A from the pack it bleeds the voltage down in a minute or less. I haven't actually timed it but I can watch the voltage needle drop as it runs. Given that, I don't think you have a mile of range between 3.50 and 3.42V.

As for going to 3.65V I think it is because the farther up (or down at the other end) the voltage curve one goes the closer in balance each cell is. I don't know how "hard" it is on the TS cells to go to 4.00V at the end of every charge but on my rig I'm using a Zivan NG1 originally programmed for a lead acid pack. I have the voltage turned up to just shy of 4.00vpc otherwise the pack won't get fully charged before the timer turns off the charger. We'll see in time. I have over 2000 miles on my pack now.


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

Thanks for your insight, Gizmo.

Do you notice much difference between 3.3 and 3.4? I'm still trying to pin that down with mine.


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## dexion (Aug 22, 2009)

Well, you can watch them charge. They sit forever at about 3.35 or so. Once they get to 3.42 they go fast to 3.5. So id say 3.3 would leave a lot on the table possibly 80%. You have to go to 3.42-3.45 vpc after that it looks like a waste. i dont however (and no one else may know) if something chemical happens at 3.45-3.65 that prolongs the life of the cell. All the "spec sheets" seem to point to keeping them away from the sharp end of the curves is good for life. I have a scooter with 21x60ah ts cells and the charger from Ts charges them all to 3.47V which could mean something so for the car (48 100ah cells I go to 168V and have driven 50 miles with the vpc still around 3.27V. On paper I should do about 54 miles so I dont think i am leaving anything much on the table going to 3.5.


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## GizmoEV (Nov 28, 2009)

I didn't test 3.3 to 3.4v but as Dex said there is likely quite a bit left on the table. My TS cells sit at about 3.4 after sitting quite a while after charge. I have 4 spare cells so I'll test the 3.3-3.4v range and report back. Hopefully it won't take too long since I don't have a recording system other than paper and pencil.

I know when I watch my pack at the end of charge when the charger is pumping in at about 6A the voltage rises quickly and the charger ramps back the current over a span of a couple of minutes. Fortunately the Zivan chargers will ramp back rather quickly and will actually shut down if it can't control the voltage. I accidentally found out while I was trying to get my charger dialed in. I'm so fortunate that it has this feature.


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## dexion (Aug 22, 2009)

Did i miss how you fixed your vibration issue? (or has it been fixed yet?)


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

No that still has to be dealt with. The vibration only happens at certain RPMs that I can avoid and isn't too bad even when it does happen. Its annoying more than anything else but it will have to be fixed eventually by tearing the car down yet again. I might just take the opportunity to completly strip the engine bay and do some touch up when the time comes.

Right now I'm trying to focus on the charging issues. I just discovered last night that one of the BMS circuits does activate on cue, but doesn't clamp the voltage like the other ones.


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## dexion (Aug 22, 2009)

Are you talking about cell 1 or 48 (or 1,16,17,32,33,48 if it takes it in 16 cell chunks.) On my chargers the 1st and last cells in the series clamp 2 TENTHS (roughly 3.9) of a volt higher than the others. I asked about it and got some silly story about 1st and last cell needing more charge since they were 1st and last....yikes. Nothing another resistor in parallel wont fix but the idea is (it will happen after a while) to get the charger to shut off right before any of them clamp so that the clamping doesnt happen every charger and only if a cell gets out of ballance. A weekend with an adjustable power supply and a .5ohm resister and all my cells were ballanced. I suppose you could do it with the charger and several .5 ohm resisters (but they get HOT) and running about like mad ballancing them. Then turn down the final voltage to 3.5V a cell and the ballancer doesnt turn on. So you can plug the charger in and walk away.


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

Its cell #19, one of 4 circuits I had to repair after I overheated the BMS when I forgot to plug in the cooling fan. Bad move.....

The BMS I have is made in two 25 unit standard modules installed in a separate case from the charger, with one of them having 2 blank spots since I only have 48 cells. Currently cells 1 and 48 do come on but later in the BMS stage they are well clamped somewhere between 3.6 and 3.7V. Currently neither will touch 3.9V and rarely see 3.8.

Cell 19 will go as high as 3.83 which is not exactly alarming, but I just don't see evidence that when LED # 19 comes on that any real clamping is occuring. Other cells float up over around 3.7V and then hit a wall eventually comming down around 3.65V which is how it should perform.


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## tomofreno (Mar 3, 2009)

> You have to go to 3.42-3.45 vpc after that it looks like a waste.


 I agree there is not much energy above this. I have CALB cells rather than TS, which the spec sheet says to charge to 3.6V at 0.3C, or 54A in my case. I find that the cell voltage starts rising exponentially with charging time at around 3.44V or so as Dexion says. I have charged cells individually with a 5A power supply and found there is only about 5 Ah or less charge storage between 3.44V and 3.6V. I have my charger cut off at around 3.44-3.47V, as I am guessing that charging up the exponential rise part of the curve introduces more stress to the cell, but dunno. No matter whether I charge a cell to 3.45 or 3.6V it will "relax" back down to 3.35V or so several hours after charging. To get it to relax to 3.4V as the CALB spec says, I have to charge it longer at 3.6V or up to 3.8V or so. I don't see any advantage of doing so.


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

ON EDIT: I found math errors the next day, please see corrections.


As you might have guess work has stalled on the car recently. The BMS is working again (I think) and i am driving the car but don't have much time to correct some of the issues. Work is also a little slow at the moment and I am scaling back funding for now until things pick up again.

Updates to report:

The car does seem to like the summer weather!

Power seem to have improved slightly and the batteries are working pretty well. Acceleration will never be impressive with this setup, but at least on flat ground in the city, I am able to keep up with traffic when pulling away from a stop light.

I did some crude calculations today to figure out the watt hours per mile.
I measured 14.5amps @ 304V at the bridge rectifier of the charger. Charge time for 84km was 4 hours.

14.5a x 304V = 4408watts

x 4 hours = 17632watt-hours

=====================

84km x 0.611 = 51.324 miles

=====================

17632 / 51.324 = 343.5 watt - hours/ mile

=====================

The charger I am using is claimed to be around 90% efficient, so that would bring it down to 309.2 watt - hours/ mile

total energy reserve is 30720watt hours, so

30720 / 309.2 = ~99.4 miles

*For the reality check:*

Projections like this generally annoy me but I'm thinking to make longer range tests in the near future so it will be interesting to see how it compares to calculation. So far, the car runs great even at the 50 mile mark and is still able to sustain 55 MPH.

Variables include the accuracy of the speedometer which could be reading low by as much as 9%,

Can the car still sustain 55 MPH at the 99 mile mark? (important since I am hoping for a 100 mile range @ constant 55 MPH speed)

Efficiency of the charger is assumed to be 90%, not measured.

Charge efficiency of the battery is not calculated here.

The charger does cut back on the amps toward the end, I cannot yet accurately account for that and the calculation assumes constant charging current right to the end.

==========================

Something I can post with a little more certainty however is the cost per mile, which is the primary reason and goal for the project, with 100 mile range being a close second.

Last electricity bill came in at $0.1126 / kWh after all the eco fees, taxes and other scams.

$0.01126 / 343.5 = $0.03278 cost per mile. (Edit: WRONG!)

Cost for the theoretical 100% recharge is $3.28

I was hoping for closer to $3.00 but its close enough I guess.

(all funds in canadian dollars)

EDIT: Rrrr! bad math!************************** see correction below:

cost per watt hour is $0.1126 / 1000 = $0.0001126

Watt Hours Per mile = 343.5

Cost per mile is 0.0001126 x 343.5 = $0.386781

Theoretical cost per full charge : $0.386781 x 99.4miles = ~ $3.84

Still not too bad...


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## joshg678 (Jan 25, 2009)

w00t!
I still wish i had enough money to convert a car to electric


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## Anaerin (Feb 4, 2009)

david85 said:


> Projections like this generally annoy me but I'm thinking to make longer range tests in the near future so it will be interesting to see how it compares to calculation. So far, the car runs great even at the 50 mile mark and is still able to sustain 55 MPH.
> 
> Variables include the accuracy of the speedometer which could be reading low by as much as 9%,
> 
> Can the car still sustain 55 MPH at the 99 mile mark? (important since I am hoping for a 100 mile range @ constant 55 MPH speed)


To remove/reduce these potential inaccuracies, have you thought of borrowing (or buying) a GPS unit? That can then accurately measure both the speed you are currently travelling at, and the distance travelled, thus giving you a more accurate picture of your capacity and capabilities.


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

Cost per mile calculation, and by default, recharge cost were calculated wrong and I have made corrections.

GPS is definately on the wish list. I used highway kilometer markers to verify the accuracy of my diesel pickup a while back but those markers are probably over 50 miles from home and I don't think there are any closer than the point of no return.


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## GizmoEV (Nov 28, 2009)

david85 said:


> Do you notice much difference between 3.3 and 3.4? I'm still trying to pin that down with mine.


I finally got around to testing this out. Remember I have to do this by hand so there is some measurement error. I think on the high side. Basically I average the current between two time intervals to count up the Ah. I took a TS-LFP100AHA cell and drained it with a bank of light bulbs until its resting voltage after more than 24h was just below 3.300V. I then hooked the cell up to my bench powersupply and charged it to 3.300v at the cell terminals at <100mA current. I started charging the cell recording the terminal voltage and current at varying intervals. Basically if the values changed rapidly I recorded at 1 min intervals and longer if the change was relatively small. I got 63Ah from 3.300-3.425V. The current was 1.5A at this point. Then I remembered I needed 3.45V and turned up the current to get to that voltage. My ending conditions were 3.451V at 476mA giving me a total of 66Ah. I then turned up the current again to get a 3.45-3.65V energy window. My ending conditions for this interval were 3.650V at 420mA for a total of 1.01Ah so not much above 3.45V. I'll see what the resting voltage is of the cell tomorrow.

To summarize:
3.300-3.425V at 1.501A ending current represents ~63Ah
3.300-3.451V at 476mA ending current represents ~66Ah
3.451-3.650 at 420mA ending current represents ~1.01Ah

I checked these ending voltages because I finally decided I needed to send in my Zivan NG1 to get a Lithium charging profile programmed in so I don't have to keep charging to 4.00vpc with the existing lead-acid algorithm. They have one that ends at 3.65vpc which I am having programmed for 19 cells. I have 18 in my Gizmo right now which will give an ending of 3.853vpc and if I fill my battery box and go with 20 the ending voltage will be 3.468vpc. It doesn't look like I'll be leaving much on the table and I should be extending the life of my pack while staying under my 70V maximum startup voltage.

Hope this helps. Just remember this data was collected by hand and done on one cell. Your mileage/voltage/current/amp-hours may vary.


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

More food for thought, thanks!


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

Well guys its been a while since I updated this thread so here is some news.

The car is performing well but still needs a lot of work. As mentioned earlier, the motor shaft coupling will have to be redone since its too loose. And I'm thinking it will be sooner rather than later. Preferably with some form of clamping version to make movement on the motor shaft impossible. I'll have to see what my options are after I tear it down again. So far I've racked up about 2000 kilometers on electric power since the rebuild of the controller and the car didn't leave me walking once in all that time.

Some better news relates to the charger. I've dialed the amps down slightly and dailed down the end cut off voltage.

Dialing down the charge amps means longer charging time but at least I can keep the lights on in the shop now! lol

Dialing down the cut off voltage eliminated my overcharge problems so I can finally leave the charger plugged in overnight with it completely shut down in the morning (what a concept haha!). The way its set up right now none of the cells reaches 3.6V so even the BMS becomes unnecessary. Cells are still not balanced perfectly but it good enough for now. Lowest cell is still a little stubborn at 3.33V when resting after recharge. Highest cells rest a little over 3.5V and will easily charge much higher if the charger allows.

I suspect the lower cells were never fully charged before being installed in the car and that might be the reason they don't like to go above 3.3~3.4V. I have a few ideas to maybe coax them.

Winter is also just around the corner so I'll have to start thinking about a heater again. There is a slim chance I might have a few consecutive days to work on the car this week but after that, all bets are off with another big contract just getting started.

Oh and one final note....having a clutch is sooooo much easier.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Is it possible the low cells are just larger capacity and lower resistance, so they never get pushed up to the higher voltages since they are never near full?


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

I guess its possible. So far I haven't been able to investigate the matter in very much detail. What I have tried is charging some of the lower cells on their own and I can force them up above 3.6V this way but they quickly drop back down to 3.33 afterwards. However by repeating this a couple times the top voltage on those cell crept up from 3.5 to over 3.8 while connected to the charger. My hunch is if I have a power supply that can hold the cells at ~3.6 for a few hours, the issue might be resolved if I am careful. All I can do is try.

If I can get the cells to rest above 3.4 I would be happy and would aim to have all of them charged to that, even the ones that are resting over 3.5 right now.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

One way to know for sure is to bottom balance the pack then charge them up. Pull them all down to around 2.8-3.0V each then see which ones reach full first.


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

Not ready to try that just yet but its an option for later. Right now I have bigger problems, well maybe not all that big....

I bit the bullet this evening and pulled the motor and transmission out of the car. Only took a little over 2 hours to get the motor on the bench. Much better than I thought but maybe it built up in my head for a little too long before diving in.

No matter, its out and I'll be making yet another shaft coupling and hopefully can get it right this time. There doesn't seem to be any damage from the slop and odd rattling from driving the car. Motor shaft looks fine but there are some tiny wear marks visible in the spline coupling since that was made of a softer steel.

First the controller got disconnected, then the jumper connection in the rear trunk box got pulled effectively breaking the battery in half.


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

And with that out of the way, as Woodsmith would say, Tally Ho!

Pull the plug for the transmission and start the teardown.

First the controller gets pulled (glad I took the time to use Automotive OEM quick connects for the sensor and POT signals!), 

then the upper battery box is disconnected and the cells are removed one by one,

Empty box removed,

Yank the CV shafts, 

remove each of the 4 hold down nuts securing the motor transmission to the car and out it comes. 

Once on the bench, the bell housing bolts are removed and the teardown is complete.


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## JRoque (Mar 9, 2010)

david85 said:


> I bit the bullet this evening and pulled the motor and transmission out of the car. Only took a little over 2 hours


geez... it took me 4 hours just to replace the 2 front struts in my car. I can only hope my setup will be as easy to work with as yours.

Ok David, not to distract you from my favorite topic: couplers, but with that 30kW worth of cells, have you given more thought to what your range will be like? I can only guess but I'd say it'll top 100 miles easily.

Looking forward to lots of coupler making pictures!

JR


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

JRoque said:


> geez... it took me 4 hours just to replace the 2 front struts in my car. I can only hope my setup will be as easy to work with as yours.


I tried to keep everything in that car as servicable as possible since I know this will be a work in progress for a long time to come. The rear batteries can be removed in about 10 minutes one by one. I could probably strip the whole car of all the EV systems in about 4 hours with a socket set, floor jack, and the overhead crane (for pulling the motor and transmission as one assembly).



JRoque said:


> Ok David, not to distract you from my favorite topic: couplers, but with that 30kW worth of cells, have you given more thought to what your range will be like? I can only guess but I'd say it'll top 100 miles easily.
> 
> Looking forward to lots of coupler making pictures!
> 
> JR


Dude, thats all I ever think about! LOL 

As it is right now, 123 kilometers is the longest distance the car has covered on a single charge going by the odometer (averaging about 50 MPH). I'm 90% sure that reading is low by 9% due to the oversized tires so that puts it up to 134.07 km or 81.9 miles. This is still only the older test I mentioned from a while ago (running clutchless) and have yet to match it or even try to.

I was worried that something might be coming apart inside the car and didn't want to risk a long trip from home should something go wrong. As it turns out it would have been fine however.

But yes, 100 miles is the goal and I think I can reach that eventually. The official goal was to hold 55 MPH for 100 miles and claim that as my range. At lower speeds I have no doubt the car will cover that distance.


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

Got off the phone a little while ago with the machinist in vancouver. The new spline coupling should be sent out tomorrow so there is a slim chance of seeing it this weekend. While chatting I explained why this one needs to be very tight on the spines so I hope this one fits nice and tight. Even if I have to put the motor in the press to get it on, I would still be happy (actually that would be ideal!)

He said its a very odd size but that he could do it. Hope my measurements were good enough - Fingers crossed!

Still some time left in the day so I'll head out and tinker some more with the car. I've managed to get several of the previously low cells to where they are resting consistently above 3.4V. Also cleaning up the BMS leads and making them look a little more nice. Its the little things like fit and finish that make for a nice conversion.


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

Front BMS harness is much cleaner now. I'm pretty happy with the results.

I might decide to wrap the wires completely in electrical tape even under the split loom at a later time but I don't want to make anything too perminant just yet in case something has to be adjusted when it comes time to put it all back together.


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## joshg678 (Jan 25, 2009)

That looks pretty good


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## roflwaffle (Sep 9, 2008)

david85 said:


> Front BMS harness is much cleaner now. I'm pretty happy with the results.
> 
> I might decide to wrap the wires completely in electrical tape even under the split loom at a later time but I don't want to make anything too perminant just yet in case something has to be adjusted when it comes time to put it all back together.


Try friction tape. It's not as sticky/messy, holds up well, and can be redone at a later date.


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

Don't think I'm familiar with that. Is it rated for elecrical wiring?


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## roflwaffle (Sep 9, 2008)

It has a small degree of electrical insulation, so it's not suitable for bare wire, but it's great for managing wiring harnesses.


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

Took a little longer than I expected but I have the new spline coupling and this one is nice and tight. It still glides on easy but there is no play to be felt this time. Once its welded onto the flange it will probably shrink down slightly but thats fine. If I have to I can heat the coupling up prior to install or use our large press.

Now if only I had the time to work on it!! LOL


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## JRoque (Mar 9, 2010)

david85 said:


> Now if only I had the time to work on it!! LOL


... and a camera to take a picture of it 

JR


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

Ok, I can take a hint.

I was so sore when I got home I didn't feel like doing much other than crashing somewhere. Got home, tried the coupler - yup fits - went inside to sit down and do a whole lot of nothing. Anyone ever install vinyl decking for a living?

So here is the new coupler. Same blank was used as before so it will fit no problem once its trimmed for length. I would like to try and salvage the flange if possible but if not I can have another one made up resulting in a completely new motor shaft adapter. Maybe I should just go that route and do it right.

I took an internal picture of the old one and the new one lined up, but the size difference won't show up on a photo so you'll have to take my word for it. Maybe I'll do a short video showing the difference in shaft play.


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## JRoque (Mar 9, 2010)

Hey David, thing of beauty that coupler. I'm sure a CNC lathe or mill can turn that stuff up in no time but it used to be a pain to do it manually.

How does it fix to the shaft? Setscrew? Friction? Sorry if I missed that in a prev post.

JR


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

It will simply float on the shaft without being clamped on. That way the splines will remain perfectly centered and loaded evenly around their diameter. The flange has a center spigot that prevents the coupling from sliding to the motor or transmission so while there is some movement possible along the length of the shafts, it has no place to go. The play is also always on the motor end thanks to the spring loaded clutch slave cylinder.

Although with this new coupler I suspect I might have to press the thing into place after its welded which would be ideal (Might even have to heat it up during the install). That would completely eliminate any possible play and give me the smoothest possible operation. I have a big gear puller for removal if that is ever necessary.

What I'm thinking of doing now is having the pressure plate and flywheel assembly balanced. All of that should give me a nice smooth and quiet operation.


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g6B6YYBPqFU

This should give a good idea of what was happening.


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## JRoque (Mar 9, 2010)

Nice! I tell ya, I'm not smart enough to understand all the squiggly things you type here but that video made it very clear. Thanks for sharing.

JR


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

Well it took a little longer than I expected but I have the new coupling and it fits like divine intervention. I was so busy this week I was loosing track of the days let alone able to find time to work on this.

I can almost push the coupling all the way into place but a few taps with a mallet are needed to seat it completely. Doesn't get much better then that!

You can see the new one has a thicker flange and the bolt holes do not pass all the way through. Much better design (I didn't do any of the work this time).

Just to be sure I bench tested the motor with the flywheel and pressure plate installed. Went all the way up to full RPM and its completely smooth. I've decided not to bother with balancing in light of this and the car will be reassembled over *THIS* weekend!


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## JRoque (Mar 9, 2010)

Hey David. Good looking coupling! Did you do the weld on that? I can only wish I could weld like that. I'm guessing you turned it after welding right? Did they cut the spline from scratch or was that off the shelf? It looks superbly done, congrats.



> the car will be reassembled over *THIS* weekend!


ooh.. does that mean we'll get to watch a daytime video soon? 

JR


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

If you are suggesting I posted a night video, there is no evidence of that - only here say





Nothing on that coupling is my work other than the measurements for the splines. The local machinist did all the work to adapt the spline socket to a flange which he made from scratch. The weld is his but yes, he turned it in the lathe afterwards to help balance it.

As far as I know, the machinist in vancouver cut the spline socket coupling from a generic off the shelf blank. So the length, and outer diameter would be standard, while the inside with the splines were custom cut for my application (I think).


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

Here is a close up on that weld.


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

First the coupling gets gently tapped onto the shaft with the handle of a hammer, then the flywheel is torqued on, then the clutch. I am using imperial bolts this time. Fine thread 7/16" x 7/8". Also note the alignment mark on the close up picture in the 9 O clock position.


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

After some persuasion, the transaxle is bolted to the motor and the powertrain assembly is lifted on the hoist for re installation.

All in all, I put about 1.5 hours in it tonight and got as far as having the powertrain all installed complete with CV shafts and ready for the battery box and controller.

There will be some fab work tomorrow for the battery box however. I discovered it was slightly too low on the motor and there are rub marks on the underside of the box. I think there is about 1/2" to play with for raising it up which should be plenty to get the clearance required.

Take a good look at that motor because it will be covered in the next update.


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## JRoque (Mar 9, 2010)

> If you are suggesting I posted a night video, there is no evidence of that - only here say


No you know... nighttime EV building, nighttime test driving, nighttime video shooting and forum postings, bats in shop... does Transylvania sound familiar? eh???? 

Hmm not much clearance between the coupler and plate. Not that is needed but it looks kinda tight if there's every any vibration, etc.

Not to knit pick... ok knit picking big time cause I'm babysitting with nothing better to do.. how about hitting the white balance button on your camera... Pics are great though. 

JR


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

Haha, funny thing is my heritage is Romanian.

Took the car for a drive this evening and everything seems to be good. If the weather is good enough tomorrow, I'll try and get some driving vids. Right now we are in the first storm of the season so anything I try to record won't show up well.

Runs much better now and I can wind it out in each gear without fear of a horrible vibration taking hold.


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## Dave Koller (Nov 15, 2008)

Good one David! Am waiting to download the video on my dialup LOL !

It takes you less time to install the engine than me to download a short video !!! ....


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

Did another range test today. My best estimate is 83 miles based on google maps and my assumption of 9% low reading on the odometer due to taller than stock tires.

Here's how it went down. The storm from last night blew over and with the sun shining I though it would be a good time to see what it could do. My mom caught wind of what I was planning and had to join me. Not that I mind one bit.

Put the car on charge to top it up after sitting for a few days.
Aired up the front tires to 50PSI and the rear to 40.
Set aside the towing hitch at home in case I had to call for a tow,
Cell phone - check
Volt meter - check
IR thermometer - check

OK, good to go....

I was about 10 miles from home when I realized I forgot my wallet so I had to turn back and get it. This is thanksgiving weekend up here so the chances of getting stopped are a little higher.

Now back to the test again. made careful note of the trip meter and worked out a safe range in my head for how far I could go.

Got back on the freeway and accelerated to 90 KPH indicated speed ( this works out to (98KPH actual speed or about 60 MPH due to larger than stock tires).

I never used 4th gear and simply let it wind out in 3rd for the sake of this test. I was able to keep average speed close to 60 MPH for the duration of the highway drive with only a few steeper hills dropping down below 55 MPH. I was quite happy with how it performed over all.

The weather however didn't cooperate for us though. Campbell river was sunny and dry but as I drove south toward Courtenay (about 30 miles one way) we went through patchy rain and wet pavement. One downpour was bad enough to cause other drivers to slow down to our speed. From my experience hypermiling my ford F250, wet pavement does indeed increase energy consumption to sustain the same speed.

At around the 60 mile mark I could already detect a subtle drop in performance. Since voltage is proportional to motor speed and I was basically running max RPM all the time, the top cruise speed dropped by about 2 MPH and it was more noticeable over hills. At worst, it could still hold 50 MPH and them build back to 55-57 on the other side. I also caught just about every &*)$^% red light on the way back LOL!

Got back home and checked things over. Ambient temperature was 15C today with the motor case at 60C - typical. Front batteries at 21C - this is inline with previous tests going all the way back to my LiFePO4 testing thread for that 12.8V sample battery. Usually they like to run about 5 degrees above ambient temperature.

The rear trunk battery however was warm to the touch and measured 26C. It cooled down quickly and cell voltages seem to be in line. I was scared at first but thinking about it this wasn't such a big deal.

The forward battery box is exposed to the on rush of air through the original vent holes in the bumper skin, while the motor box is cooled from underneath by the motor fan. The rear box however is out of the air stream under the car behind the rear suspension beam and had the trunk floor mat on top of it acting like a blanket. This is also the longest, hardest trip I have ever attempted with this car with higher sustained speeds for longer time and 2 occupants instead of just one like the last long range test.

When ever the next test happens, I'll have the aluminum lid installed on the rear box and leave the mat at home to see what sort of difference there is. If the problem persists, I might have to think of some form of more direct cooling. For a moment I was even thinking to use that for cabin heat but thats probably not a good idea. Battery life comes first

The car is charging at the moment and all seems to be well.


*A smaller EV story from earlier this week:*

I think I mentioned before that we are working on a fairly large condo project in town. Well a few days ago we had to move a 600lb roll of vinyl from the job site to our business location. Came home with my truck and hitched up our trailer since that would be the easiest way to use the on site forklift. Loaded it up, BS'ed for a while with the site manager/forklift operator and then drove home to drop off the trailer. Normally I don't bother shutting off the truck for something as brief as unhitching this but for some reason I did this time. Thats when I heard some hissing. The one time I drive on site

Sure enough on closer inspection I found a nail in one of the rear tires. No time to deal with it so I park it near the shop (closer to the compressor) and place a jack stand under the rear axle in case it leaks all the way out by the time I get back. Jump in the EV and get drive back to work. After ward on the way home I stop by the tire shop, explain the situation and we figure there is enough time left to repair it if I can get it to him in time.

Drive home, yank the 32" 10 ply wheel off the truck and its a perfect fit in the wide open trunk of the electric car.

Got the tire fixed in 10 minutes (free since I bought them new there) and before 6:00 PM the trucks good to go again.

I think I like this car


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## RE Farmer (Aug 8, 2009)

david85 said:


> The weather however didn't cooperate for us though. Campbell river was sunny and dry but as I drove south toward Courtenay (about 30 miles one way) we went through patchy rain and wet pavement. One downpour was bad enough to cause other drivers to slow down to our speed. From my experience hypermiling my ford F250, wet pavement does indeed increase energy consumption to sustain the same speed.


Just a bit of interesting trivia from my airline pilot days: The drag produced by 5/8" of standing slush and/or water is equal to take-off thrust on a 4-engine DC-8 jet airliner; and from personal experience so is 6" of dry snow.


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## GizmoEV (Nov 28, 2009)

Is 26C actually that bad for the batteries or are you concerned about the 4C difference between the front and back battery pack? I thought that the operating range was to something over 80C? I've had the battery temp up to about 30C in my Gizmo when driving it on a hot day but they are usually cooler than that.


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

80C?? I haven't heard that before.

I don't have the spec sheet on hand but I think the ideal operating range is 20-25C and ideal storage range is 15-20. Running them hotter isn't going to kill them but might shorten the cycle life.

Whats a little concerning is if the outside temperature had been closer to 20 or 30 degress. Then I might have a problem.

There is also some concern that having a difference in temperature between different parts of the battery pack might affect the capacity and *might* cause a misbalance over time.

One final possibility is that I'm just thinking too much about this


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## JRoque (Mar 9, 2010)

Hey David,

Nice going!!! 83 is great by all accounts but especially because you were doing highway speeds most of the run, plus had two passengers, plus going up/down hills and through rain. BTW, I wouldn't do 50 PSI on my tires just to gain a couple of miles. Driving ballooned tires like that in the rain could be risky.

Why won't you shift into 4th? You might find out that running your motor at less than it's top speed is actually better for your range. Are you monitoring your current consumption as your drive?

But wait, 26C actual or above ambient? If it's actual, that is absolutely nothing (79 deg for us Yanks). Unless your cells as that much different, Thundersky's operating temperature is up to 85C. In fact, had they've been warmer you would have gotten a better range. I would be more concerned about the controller temp since a rise there equals to loss of efficiency.

Nice Lassie story with your EV! Pretty soon you'll forget it's battery powered and just hop in it and go as you would on any other car. 

JR


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

I used 50 PSI since the front end is so heavy. I've got nearly 2000 lbs on the front end before anyone steps in the car.

And yes, 26C was actual temperature.

As for using 3rd gear VS 4th, that will be something to test later on. I have no amp or volt meters in the car yet since I still haven't found anything that I really like.


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

Managed to find the spec sheet and - heehee looks like there's not much to worry about after all.

They recommend for maximum life span of the battery to keep temperature at or below 25C but the operating range is as follows:

Charging : 0C - 40C

Discharge: -20C - 60C

I guess I was caught off guard with the battery getting warmer than ever before.


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## joshg678 (Jan 25, 2009)

Dave, have you done anything to the arrow dynamics of the car yet?
I know these cars could use a lot of upgrades to lower the wind drag.

its crazy how small changes like a mudflap in front of the front tires can lower the drag.


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

No aero mods at all yet but I would like to eventually. A full belly pan out of aluminum sheet is planned but will be a while before that happens. The bigger tires likely aren't helping either.

Do you have any ideas for other mods?


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## joshg678 (Jan 25, 2009)

I would put a v shape opject infront of the front tires to help direct the wind out of the way of the tires.
i would also probably just close off the front bumber and stuff.

Remove the Radio antenna?


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

david85 said:


> No aero mods at all yet but I would like to eventually. A full belly pan out of aluminum sheet is planned but will be a wile before that happens.


Why aluminum instead of coroplast?


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

I guess that would be cheaper - and lighter. I just worry a little about how durable it would be long term.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

You planning on bottoming out a lot?


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

Maybe. I tend to get silly ideas when snow hits the pavement.....

Thats one reason I have a skid plate up front haha.


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## Dave Koller (Nov 15, 2008)

David 
You are so fortunate not to have tons of salt to splash up under and rot away everything you worked so hard to do .. That is the way it is around here! I think it is a conspiracy with auto dealers


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## JRoque (Mar 9, 2010)

I lived for many years in Boston, MA where they dump a bucket of salt/sand to each snow flake. I bought my VW Passat there and even though I car washed the undercarriage at least once a week during snow storms, it shows signs of corrosion. 

For my conversion, I figured I would get another car since I didn't want to deal with the rust. I picked up a used VW Cabrio and upon checking the VIN, I quickly discovered it hailed from nowhere else than: Boston! Doh! The crappy thing is all rusted below.

Thankfully here in Miami someone invented warm snow and that needs no salt.

JR


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

Oh they use plenty of salt out here too!

If there is so much as a hint of frost in the forecast they are pouring brine on all the roads and major intersections have rock salt thrown down.

I have to litterally oil up the body of my truck and touch up the undercoating every year to keep it from rusting away. It reeks of 80/90 gear oil inside but it does keep things in check.

Stubborn use of salt is actually causing accidents in my area because of the constant freeze/thaw cycle that our climate is prone to every day. Once you get cold enough, the salted roads still freeze. Only difference now is the ice is smooth and polished so that even chains and studded tires can barely bite in. Send a grader over and its clean enough to see food stuck between your teeth in the reflection

The best year I ever had for driving in winter was when we had a massive dump of snow that completely overwhelmed the services (and most of the imcompetent drivers) and resulted in a hard packed layer of snow on all the roads. But when sand is spread on top, its gives consistent and reliable traction instead of patches of black ice that you can't see coming. Its no where near as solid as wet pavement but at least the traction was consistent and planning ahead was much more reliable.

I had fun driving in those conditions but didn't enjoy the black ice.

Oh, and I totally wouldn't put it past the automakers to be backing road salt practices. To think after 100 years they still build out of steel......(shakes head and walks away)


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## joshg678 (Jan 25, 2009)

It would be easier if they just installed heaters for the roads to keep the temp at or above freezing. Then still had the plows to push off the snow.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Not even close to cost effective to build, maintain, and heat.


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## joshg678 (Jan 25, 2009)

Its actually pretty cheap material wise to have one of these installed, its just a lot more in labor to install.
All they would need to do is push water underground and then through the road. It would be like Geothermal heating/cooling.


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## Anaerin (Feb 4, 2009)

Or use Piezo elements under the roadway to generate the power, and run the generated power through nichrome wire to heat the road surface. Then it would be solid state and self-sufficient.


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## joshg678 (Jan 25, 2009)

To bad the roads are managed by the government.......


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Come on guys, think of the scale! They can barely keep up with the potholes in most places.


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## gte718p (Jul 30, 2009)

True,

However I was in Colorado a few years ago and saw driveway heated that way and it was pretty cool. After working on frozen concrete for a year my next shop will have radiant heat in the floor, but that's wicked expensive to maintain at temp. I couldn't imagine the energy required to keep hundreds or thousands of miles of roads up to temp.


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## infantry11b (Feb 6, 2010)

let's see. one piezo elment with a 17/32 diameter retails for about $1.25. if you could get them for half of that it would mean how many millions of the little suckers sufficient to handle tens of millions of miles. then there is the energy to make and transport them. then there is all that wire and juice to power them. lets not forget the controllers - how many millions would that be? and the energy to make them, and the energy to dig all the roads up and install them, and then dig them up and replace them. and dig them up and fix the broken wires and then the power needed to juice billions of the little things.
and when push comes to shove - a good snow plow is a hell of a lot cheaper.


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

Another option would be a paving material that is a semi conductor. booster stations could be installed along the length of the road instead of having to weave wires right into the pavement. Uh, just don't get out of the car before leaving the electrified roadway

Oh great, now I'm doing it too.....


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## Anaerin (Feb 4, 2009)

Okay, most (large-scale) roads are built with concrete "plates". 4 piezo elements per plate reduces the cost (like they do in weigh bridges). Using a wire grid embedded in the concrete (Which would typically be there for strength anyway) you can transmit the power safely, and you can use live + earth return for the power transmission. Or just have the power "local" to that plate, so each plate is responsible for generating and heating itself. It also means that little-used roads generate (and use) less power than an interstate.

If there was an excess of power there (Possible during summer months) you could also use it for "Intelligent" roadlights, which only light up when there is a car on the road under them, saving power and reducing light pollution.


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## JRoque (Mar 9, 2010)

How about a satellite mounted giant _laser_ that would fire hot rays to melt the snow. True, you would occasionally fry a car or two but think of how clear the streets would be! Seriously, the idea of heating the streets is not practical to say the least. At best, we could heat bridges to prevent black ice there but that's about it.

So, about that Saturn project of yours, David... What is it that you're looking for in a volt/ammeter? Monitoring those parameters is so important I wouldn't mind strapping a couple of cheap DMM to my dashboard while I think of something more permanent. Judging by the extended range your getting plus the low temp reading on your cells, I'd say your "feathering" - to use your term - the controller. You might be able to get better performance (at range cost) if you knew you were pulling low amps and could go higher.

JR


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

Well I was looking at some digital meters but those would work only for volt readings and I would still need something for amp reading. I tried contacting the vendor and asking if they could work on my setup but their amp meters were only good for up to the low 70s for voltage range. So far the best looking setup I've seen for a saturn (I think he is a member here) was analogue gauges to replace the stock fuel and temp gauges right in the factory cluster assembly. Looked OEM to the untrainded eye.





 
I was hoping to have digital meters (they are way cheaper...) all matching for voltage - 14V and 160V systems,
Amp meter,
and temperature meters for the controller and motor and maybe even one for each battery assembly since there are 3 separate batteries in my car.
The idea was to have an all digital auxiliary gauge pod mounted on the dash beside the main cluster but the issue of the amp meter is getting in my way.

I was really hoping to get a hall effect sensor for the amp reading since I don't like the idea of using a shunt but all I've found for that are AC amp meters. With some imagination I might be able to tap into the hall sensors that are built into the controller but I just haven't had the time or presence of mind to look into this in more detail.

Although measuring amps at the controller won't still show me all of the total drain on the traction pack so I'd rather have the sensor right at the battery. Thinking near the main contactor and fuse but haven't decided on anything yet.


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## JRoque (Mar 9, 2010)

Hey David, those gauges on that Saturn do look nice indeed. 

Your idea of going hall effect is a good one; I also don't like shunts. I picked up a set of 6 of the Honeywell CSLA2DK sensors from Azure Dynamics. You will need to work that signal into something useful but it shouldn't be that difficult, especially if you've ever work with a microcontroller. If you go the analog meter route, it might just need a couple of components to make it work.

Beyond diving into circuit design and whatnot, there are few options out there that are both decent and economical. I saw one the other day but the guys were asking close to $400 for a simple display. Have you asked the guys that made your controller? Maybe all of that data is already there and you just have to tap into it.

JR


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## Dave Koller (Nov 15, 2008)

Those gauges are from atzi a member here...


I helped with his tach:
http://www.saturn.offical.net/?q=node/304

He has a nice setup of gauges....


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

I've already figured out what the hall sensors do and am able to pull up spec sheets on them from the web (I suspect the high current lockout is actually adjustable with a trim pot on the main board but haven't been able to test that theory yet). The are rated to measure a constant 300 amp (900peak) and put out 100ma/100amp. If I knew how to use a PLC it would be a piece of cake

Could it be as simple as finding a meter that has a 0-300ma input and 0-300amp display range?



Dave Koller said:


> Those gauges are from atzi a member here...
> 
> 
> I helped with his tach:
> ...


I thought it was him but wasn't sure.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Have you looked at Dimitri's EV Display? Hall effect sensing of battery amps, amp hour counting, battery temperature, and a number of other features.


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## Coulomb (Apr 22, 2009)

david85 said:


> Could it be as simple as finding a meter that has a 0-300ma input and 0-300amp display range?


I'm not sure if this comment was with respect to the hall effect sensor or not.

But yes, that's the idea. You don't want 300 A at high voltage flowing into and out of the cabin, so you need a shunt. One milliohm is a convenient value, since you can measure the resultant voltage drop in millivolts, and each millivolt represents an ampere. You can also get half milliohm shunts and other values, but then you have to start playing games with the result.

Many meters these days have "3.75 digit" displays (maximum display value 4000, compared to the older 3.5 digit versions, whose maximum display was 2000), so that would be ideal. It will show 300 amps as 300.0, and even at low currents, you can tell the difference between say 15 A and 15.5 A. Then again, perhaps the least significant digit will just be noise and a distraction, so you might want a cheaper meter that reads 0-2000 mV. So 15.5 A might display as alternating 15 and 16, which might be fine.

Shunts can be found for reasonable money and able to handle high currents, and don't have any problems (as hall effect devices do) with residual magnetism reducing the repeatability of the reading. I think most of us have used cheap DC clamp meters where you need to zero them constantly, and the reading depends on how long since it was last zeroed.

However, hall effect devices have practically no losses and dissipate practically no heat. Shunts will have a voltage drop (0.1% for a 1 milloohm shunt at maximum current) and will get hot. High current shunts also take up a bit of space.


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

Hey Coulomb! Been a while

Yes thats what I was thinking regarding the hall sensor that is already in the controller.

On thing I'm unsure of is how to properly read the output. Each phase of the controller puts out an alternating current, so will the meter read zero if I get the wrong type? or does the hall sensor not care if it's measuring AC or DC current?

Efficiency is what I am after with this setup and the idea of parts in the wiring getting hot doesn't appeal to me which is why I would rather not use a shunt on the main traction line. If nothing else, its one more connection and one more thing to possibly go wrong. A hall sensor is more or less - "harmless".


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## Coulomb (Apr 22, 2009)

david85 said:


> Yes thats what I was thinking regarding the hall sensor that is already in the controller.
> 
> On thing I'm unsure of is how to properly read the output. Each phase of the controller puts out an alternating current, so will the meter read zero if I get the wrong type? or does the hall sensor not care if it's measuring AC or DC current?


Ah, now I'm getting a little out of my depth.

My understanding is that there are two distinct types of clamp meters; those that can read DC as well as AC, and some much cheaper AC only types. The latter are essentially current transformers; like all transformers, they don't work with DC. But it's only the ones that read DC as well as AC that have Hall effect sensors. So from that, all Hall effect sensors can read DC as well as AC. In effect, they read instantaneous magnetic field; with the high permeability toroid that is used, you capture practically all the magnetic field emitted by the current in the wire being measured.

I assume that there will be 2 or 3 current sensors, presumably Hall effect but I'm not sure about that. The reason that they can get away with two is that in a star or delta connected motor, neglecting leakage, the currents will sum to zero, so just knowing two of the three instantaneous currents, you can deduce the third.

For your purposes, you can assume that the phase currents will be the same. (The motor controller needs instantaneous currents for various purposes.) So I guess you could tap into the hall effect circuitry and get some signal that is proportional to the motor current. You might be able to scale it up (with an amplifier) or down (with a voltage divider) and just use a multimeter on AC volts. I'm not sure how cheap multimeters do their sampling of AC voltage; surely they don't use silicon diodes, or else the errors at low voltages would be horrific. I know that AC voltage ranges, especially the low AC voltage ranges, are usually less accurate than the DC ranges. Maybe it's just an op-amp with a diode in the feedback path; that might tend to overcome the highly non-ideal nature of typical diodes. But you'd have issues with tracing the circuit, and dealing with the lack of isolation and noise. That is, your long wires to the meter might pick up noise and inject them into the motor controller, with possibly disastrous results.

That's why I'd be ignoring the current sensors in the motor controller, and instead measuring either the DC input to the controller, or measuring one of the phases, with a separate hall effect sensor or current transformer. You could do worse than a cheap AC-only (not hall effect) clamp meter on one of the motor leads, somehow separating the sensor and display. Ideally, you'd reverse engineer enough of the meter's circuitry to figure out some point that has an amplified version of the sensor's output, and wire that to the rest of the meter in the cabin. You might be able to disconnect the sensor and just run shielded twisted pair from the multimeter in the cabin to the sensor around the motor lead, and hope that the low impedance of the current transformer keeps the noise pickup to a low enough level to be usable.

I'm just thinking that our Tritium controller will be able to tell us current (bus current I think, but maybe we can ask for motor current as well) by just asking for it over the CAN bus. But I think you don't have a CAN bus or equivalent?


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

Nope, no CAN bus. Mine is all strictly analogue and the central processor is not programmable other than with resistors or other external hard wiring. I think you helped me find the datasheet for it a while back when I was trying to get it working again.

There are 3 current transducers and they seem to feed into the main board at a single location with a trim pot nearby. I suspect that trim pot is used to adjust this reading for maximum current protection. The board also has 2 other trim pots which I think might be to adjust the acceleration and deceleration constants but for now I have no way to test this.

You raise some good points about tapping into this for the sake of a read out to the cabin. The last thing I want is to give the controller reason to go goofy on me. Besides, sensor right on the main DC line would give me the complete reading for total drain on the pack including things like the 12V system and perhaps electric heater.


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

Well this officially sucks! After over 2000 miles, the controller is on the fritz again.

Here's how it went down.

A few days ago, I was near the top of a hill when the power cut. I figured my foot was a little too heavy and reset the throttle as I often have to do if the high current shut off activates. All I get this time is a brief bump and it shuts off again.

Tried again much more gently and the car starts pulling but it doesn't sound right and seems to vibrate a little. Grabbed a side street and pull over. By now it's having a hard time and its almost banging with very unconsistent torque - which in turn seems to be throwing the current limiter and forcing a shut off. Came to a complete stop safely, put it in neutral, and press the pedal - nothing.

I pushed the car by hand a few feet since I was blocking a driveway and looked things over. No smoke, no smell no fire, no hot motor/controller - NOTHING! WTF!!!

Try the pedal again - nothing.

Now I start thinking about the problem......Lets see what happens if I roll it over by hand. I put the car in 5th gear and push it a few inches. Back in neutral and press the pedal. Motor responds and spools up but the car shakes a little when it first starts turning. Once above a certain RPM, it runs smooth and sounds about normal. Rev it a few times and allow it to stop again. Tried that a few times and basically verified my 3 phase motor had turned into a 2 phase. *sigh*

I was able to turn the car around under it's own power and based on that decided to try and drive the rest of the ~4km home. Once I got that motor spinning, it didn't stop until I was in the driveway, so technically the car did still carry me home.

What's strange is it didn't seem to be down on power very much in the higher RPM ranges but I wasn't about to push it on a main 4 lane artery so I rode the clutch and pull away slowly from each stop on the way back. Naturally I caught every red light on the way home! You can imagine the irony of me having to idle my electric car at the stop lights. Something that wouldn't have been possible with a clutchless setup.

The controller is removed, gutted and I am trying to trace down the problem. So far I have some clues but no solid leads. There are no signs of damage visually. I could probably fix it again, but this is a major confidence blow. A breakdown at ~2000 miles isn't acceptable by any stretch of the imagination

On a happier note, Dimitri's EV meter arrived today.

Looks great..........


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## Coulomb (Apr 22, 2009)

david85 said:


> After over 2000 miles, the controller is on the fritz again.


Sorry to hear that, David.



> So far I have some clues but no solid leads.


What are the clues? I assume no loose lugs this time, or that would be a pretty solid clue.


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## mrbigh (Dec 31, 2008)

david85 said:


> Well this officially sucks! After over 2000 miles, the controller is on the fritz again.
> 
> 
> On a happier note, Dimitri's EV meter arrived today.
> ...


Oh man, this news really sucks!!! I'm sorry to hear about it, but I'm sure you will came up with the right solution for your electric wheels.
Dimitri's EV meter?....I would like to see some pictures and a review of the meter.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

mrbigh said:


> Dimitri's EV meter?....I would like to see some pictures and a review of the meter.


Click on the ad for the Clean power auto Mini BMS for pics of the EV Display, and there is a thread about it here somewhere.

Sorry to hear about the controller David


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## mrbigh (Dec 31, 2008)

JRP3 said:


> Click on the ad for the Clean power auto Mini BMS for pics of the EV Display, and there is a thread about it here somewhere.


 JRP3 thank you for the EV meter link.
Certainly looks to be a nice simple instrument, competition to Xantrex?, always welcomed from us, the ev-ers


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

The meter looks great - I JUST CAN'T USE IT!!!!!!!

Hi Coulomb:

Nothing loose this time. The only clues I have are some irregular ohm readings at the 3 IGBT drivers I already replaced. 

I'm getting about 3k ohms between pin 1 and 10 of the 3 gate drivers that I replaced but no readings on the one I removed from the board, or the originals that are still in place, or the brand new ones that I have as spares. So far, that's the only real clue I have and something similar did happen last time if you remember. Although I also found some diodes that failed back then too.

I still have 3 spares but after removing one, I found that the reading is only there with the driver installed. 

And swapping with a new one the reading came back, while at the same time the reading dissapears from the one that was removed. So the drivers themselves might not be the problem this time. 

Whatever the problem is, it's somewhere else on the main board. I'm trying to check all the other components that I already replaced (basically just diodes) but can't find anything that jumps out at me.

I might have to set up some jumpers so I can run a live test with the controller connected to the car. First thing is to verify that it is indeed 2 full steps that are dead as I suspect right now.

The gate drivers are not a 100% match between the originals and the ones I was able to locate, but the ratings are still enough for the IGBTs in this controller (originals are recommended for 600 amp IGBTs while the replacements are recommended for 400 amp units). Do you think that could be part of the problem???


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## JRoque (Mar 9, 2010)

Hey David, sorry to hear about your mishap. Do you have an oscilloscope? That driver impedance does look suspect. Finding out if the drivers are firing correctly is critical. 

Seeing that the IGBTs measure good disconnected, I would remove all 3 drivers from them and check their outputs. You might be able to disconnect the HV rail for that test to make you more comfortable working in there. See what kind of signal you get on the other two drivers and compare it to the suspect one. Depending on your design, you should typically see +15V and <-5V swing in the driver's output. But comparing all 3 would be best.

I would also check that you're getting pulses on all 3 hall sensors from the motor, if your setup uses them.

JR


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

I've barely looked at it since the last update since work is keeping my busy. I am also seriously undertooled for this type of thing and it was truly a miracle that I was able to make it work again last time with nothing more than a radio shack circuit tester.

The board itself can tell me if the hall sensors are working since it has 3 LEDs on it to indicate the 6 step operation. Even with the system switched on and the motor turned over by hand, they will tell me if the hall sensors are working.


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

You guys aren't going to believe this but I think I have it fixed - AGAIN!!

I started poking and prodding in it about a week ago after not touching the car for over a month (had ice sitting in the rear passenger foot well). So while thawing it out with a space heater I went to work trying to trace down the problem.

It was still running with at least one phase dead. Startup and low RPM was jerky, and often it would cut out as I tried to gradually increase the speed. This is all in neutral with no load.

Looking over the Motorola Datasheet for the IC that runs my controller, I found list of 5 possible causes on page 12 for the fault output to activate.

1) Invalid sensor input code (seems unlikely since throttle signal and rotor position are getting through)

2) Output Enable Logic at 0 (also not likely because this would prevent startup in all rotor positions)

3) Current Sense Input greater than 100mv (this is the over current protection that was limiting my power - also unlikely since there wasn't enough power going through the lines to draw that much current. This was later verified by unplugging the current transducers with no change in performance, or shutdown on RPM increase)

4) Undervoltage Lockout, activation of one or more of the comparators (Hmmm........)

5) Thermal Shutdown, maximum junction temperature being exceeded. (doesn't seem likely since it ran fine in hot weather and its friggin' cold right now! The temperature trip is also way the heck up at 175C, so if it was that hot, I would have known)


Another thing I was wondering is if maybe the IC itself was bad and maybe THAT was causing a "phantom" fault. I can get replacements through digikey but something made me keep looking.

First thing I tried is measuring the line to line voltage referenced to the bus to see if each phase was getting the same amount. One was a little off - the same one that was affected by the fire.

Ok......how about the amps? That was also a bit lower and was a bit more tricky to measure since by now the problem seemed to be getting worse. However I was able to see a misbalance of at least 25% (lower) on that same phase. What was also strange is the motor when it did run, sounded like a sick 4 popper ICE with an intermittent misfire. You could hear and feel it shuddering then running smooth repeatedly, then eventually the fault latch would activate and shut everything down.

There was also a problem with one of the fault indicator LEDs. It was always dimly lit weather running, powered up and on standby, or when the fault latch had been activated.
Could it be on the logic side???? (scratches head) Checking power at the optoisolators turns up nothing - they are VERY close on my meter when measured on the logic side. No clues there.

How about the power from the isolated DC-DC converters? These are a little funny since the input power and output power are essentially the same (less whatever power loss is found due to inefficiency). This particular part (YND5-24S24) calls for 24V input and 24V output so the only real role they play is to isolate the power supply to the IGBT gate drivers on each phase. Total of 6 drivers, with 3 DC-DC converters for the whole driver board. All of them show ~24V on the input side and ~22V on the output side.

Then I though to check to see if they are truly "isolated". All of them had no continuity across the isolation*............all but one*

We aren't talking a slight ohm reading across the terminals either. It was very close to a dead short. The power on the outlet side was still in agreement with the remaining two, but none of the other ones gave me a continuity reading.

So all of late last night I was on the hunt for a replacement part. It can be found out there...... IN CHINA!!! But there are some that might work for replacements that can be adapted from domestic suppliers. Only problem is, I don't know for sure if this is my gremlin. Clearly it needs to be replaced since its not isolated anymore but I would like to know for sure. I pulled it out and still get a continuity signal
So that was yesterday.......

Today, I start thinking of ways to test this theory. Could I simply inject power into the driver board where its needed? Couldn't think of a reason not to. Digging through my crap (and there is a lot of it), I can't find an AC adapter for 24V. But maybe that won't give me a steady enough power supply anyway, battery would be better - no? 

We have a whole mess of old NiCad batteries left over from spent cordless drill guns that I didn't have the heart to throw away. So I dig two 12V batteries out. One works, the other doesn't. Fine - pull it apart, fix the burned connection and I get 10V out of it. Put them both on charge since we still have the chargers too and used some really thin comm cable on the output side of where the DC-DC converter normally supplies power for the IGBT drivers.

I only had the batteries on charge for maybe 15 minutes at the most since I didn't want the voltage to climb too high. Taped them together and wired them in series - 26V. Hmm........a little on the high side but since I am working with junk that is otherwise useless why not risk it. Remember this controller would be scrapped otherwise.

Connect the battery to the logic board and makes a tiny spark - CRAP! what was that!? oh right, the capacitors for the driver simply filled. (Yes I was a little jittery!). Connect some 10ga wires for the power and 3 phases to the motor. Remember I'm only doing a no load test here to see if it can reliably roll over. No need to handle high amps. Finally plug the controller in and it powers up normally.
The under hood of the car looks like - well, you'll see once the camera battery is charged

Get in and gingerly reach for the pedal with my fingers. IT WORKED!!!!!!!!!
RPM came on smooth and steady. No more rough start, no "misfire", no shut down - it simply spins with the usual squeak that that it always have from the controller. Press the pedal to the floor and it goes all the way to maximum RPM without any issues. Ramp up and down several times and it performs flawlessly. Start from 0RPM several times and it wakes up each time on que from ANY rotor positon!!!!!!!

Finally I put the car in gear and very slowly allow it to pull forward and backward under its own power. Once again it works as it should with all 3 phases appearing to work properly. Rolling the car slow enough to actually hear the clicks of each phase ticking over, it still works fine. The rest of the testing will happen with the controller properly installed with all the high current wiring in place. In the mean time it seems I will be able to test the car with the 24V battery in place of the now removed 5 watt power supply isolator. Who knows, I might even be able to drive it while I source the replacement parts.

That one LED is still dimly lit so for all I know, it means nothing.

Right now I'm going back out to take some pictures of the carnage under the hood with all the wires and guts exposed everywhere.


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

Well here it is; the car on the operating table with its brains spead out for all to see

I tried it again and it was cutting out at higher RPMs like before. Checking the 24V battery that I rigged up, the voltage was down to 22V, so I'm thinking this might be why it was doing this. Start off was still smooth and it was still pulling its weight when in gear so I still think this is my problem. I have the two 12V batteries on charge right now and will let them charge all the way this time. Tomorrow I hope to continue the testing. For tonight, I'll put the controller back together and prep it for proper install in the car.


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## DIYguy (Sep 18, 2008)

Way to go David! As I always say.... "if its broke, u can't break it!"


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Brilliant!


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## mrbigh (Dec 31, 2008)

david85 said:


> You guys aren't going to believe this but I think I have it fixed - AGAIN!!
> 
> Right now I'm going back out to take some pictures of the carnage under the hood with all the wires and guts exposed everywhere.


Very lucky find, CONGRATS!!


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

Thanks guys, it was a shock to see it humming away normally again.

The controller is back in the car and all hooked up other than the "prosthetic" power supply. One of the 12V NiCads charged up in a few minutes but the other one is still charging after over an hour so it was probably as close to dead as it gets.

I even managed to finally thaw out that puddle of ice in the rear footwell and suck the water out with the shop vac. Might just be able to dry it out completely tomorrow.

Maybe I'll finally get to try out that EV meter.


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)




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## Coulomb (Apr 22, 2009)

david85 said:


> I pulled it out and still get a continuity signal


I assume you mean that the DC-DC module still showed a short, not the circuit board it came from.

Well Done, David85! For someone not officially trained in electronics, you're doing remarkably well!

I hope you can source a suitable replacement soon and be on the road again.


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## tomofreno (Mar 3, 2009)

Great news! Good troubleshooting!


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

Coulomb said:


> I assume you mean that the DC-DC module still showed a short, not the circuit board it came from.
> 
> Well Done, David85! For someone not officially trained in electronics, you're doing remarkably well!
> 
> I hope you can source a suitable replacement soon and be on the road again.


Thanks and yes, that is correct. Its the converter that has the short, not the board.


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

I was able to road test it briefly today. Distance under 3km, speeds under 60kph, just a quick run around the neighbourhood. Car seems to do ok with the current limiter kicking in about where it usually does.

Unfortunately after a long stretch of cold, dry weather, its snowing today so there isn't too much I can do on the roads yet. The slushy muck we have right now is already coating the underside and with the connections to the motor being exposed right now, I would rather avoid the road salt. At least until they can scrape most of the stuff off the roads. Over all it did handle the snow pretty well though. All that weight on the front tires helps the summer tread grab weather it wants to or not LOL.

Weather should clear up after a few days and I may try to put some cover on the motor even if just temporary. I'm hoping to at least warm up the battery a little and then give it a better charge although it seems to be performing well in the cold.

But so far so good!


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## mrbigh (Dec 31, 2008)

david85 said:


> Weather should clear up after a few days and I may try to put some cover on the motor even if just temporary. I'm hoping to at least warm up the battery a little and then give it a better charge although it seems to be performing well in the cold.
> 
> But so far so good!


   that's a great news!!!!


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

Ended up slapping a plastic skid plate under the motor so I am free to drive it to my hearts content. Not pretty but it does the job.

Car is on charge now and I am planning to take it out again this evening.


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## Dave Koller (Nov 15, 2008)

david85 said:


> Ended up slapping a plastic skid plate under the motor so I am free to drive it to my hearts content. Not pretty but it does the job.
> 
> Car is on charge now and I am planning to take it out again this evening.


That is why I do not drive in winter - salt --- Got a shot of the skid plate?

Nice work by the way...


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## Weisheimer (May 11, 2009)

David,

That was a great job, not only in analyzing and troubleshooting, but also in explaining it here.
Now you have more than a working controller. 
You have a platform to measure and analyze your motor's operating parameters should you decide to continue forth with a controller build or upgrade!
Check out the Cincon line of DC-DC converters from Mouser for a replacement. 
They tend to have great isolation for a fair price.
I'd also look again at the voltages that feed the IGBT drivers.
You had some issues with Zeners before as I recall, so checking the voltages at each driver seems prudent.
I'd guess that they are using the 24vdc to obtain a +15vdc drive with a -9vdc turn off.

But really, the biggest thing I have to say is Congratulations!


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

Dave Koller said:


> That is why I do not drive in winter - salt --- Got a shot of the skid plate?
> 
> Nice work by the way...


Thanks,

Will have to be tomorrow before I can give you that photo. I just put the car to bed. Think I have a pretty full charge for some joy riding tomorrow.



Weisheimer said:


> David,
> 
> That was a great job, not only in analyzing and troubleshooting, but also in explaining it here.
> Now you have more than a working controller.
> ...


Thanks, I'm glad you are able to understand what I did. Can't always be sure the explanation clear enough but I try anyway.

I have a few options for DC-DC power supplies now. Just have to pick one and order a few. The ones I have are good for isolation up to 500V. I figure that should be good enough for whatever replacement I find.

Correct on the Zeners - I did try replacing some on the board. There was also a fast recovery diode on this logic phase that had to be replaced (you can see it on the underside of the board). I checked all the diodes over a month ago with my tester and everything seemed good. After that I was out of ideas so the car stayed parked until more recently. Best I can figure, this DC-DC converter was damaged in the initial fire 2 years ago and simply let go more recently.

As far as building a new controller, I would still like to do that but now I have a car in the mean time
I agree that having this as a starting platform for setup will come in handy. To be honest, today was the first time I even considered that angle


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

Looking at Cincon's converters but they don't seem to have one with the specs I need (Unless I missed it - way past my bed time at the moment).

Some one sent me this link via PM though and I think it could work:

http://search.digikey.com/scripts/DkSearch/dksus.dll?Detail&name=445-2492-ND

Specs show 12~15V output at a first glance but it has a deal that allows it to be connected for 24V output instead. Not a bad price either.

Any objections or suggestions?

There are other potential sources but I'd rather get it from digikey or equivalent. These days they charge canadian sales taxes from their end resulting in VERY fast shipping times without the hassle of brokerage fees.


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## El Rayo (Mar 23, 2009)

Great job (again), David! Congratulations!


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## Weisheimer (May 11, 2009)

david85 said:


> ...Some one sent me this link via PM though and I think it could work:
> 
> http://search.digikey.com/scripts/DkSearch/dksus.dll?Detail&name=445-2492-ND
> 
> ...


The plus and minus 12volts add together to get 24vdc.
The 500v isolation rating is the same as the original too, and that is it's only shortcoming. I'd prefer to see 1.5 kv of isolation rating.
It probably doesn't matter, as the rest of them are going to still be 500v, so upping a single one won't really help.

I'd say go ahead and use this one, but look further if you pursue building an upgraded controller.


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

El Rayo said:


> Great job (again), David! Congratulations!


Hey thanks, long time no see!



Weisheimer said:


> The plus and minus 12volts add together to get 24vdc.
> The 500v isolation rating is the same as the original too, and that is it's only shortcoming. I'd prefer to see 1.5 kv of isolation rating.
> It probably doesn't matter, as the rest of them are going to still be 500v, so upping a single one won't really help.
> 
> I'd say go ahead and use this one, but look further if you pursue building an upgraded controller.


Thats what I figured. Since this was the phase that was damaged in the first place, I think (hope) thats why this power supply failed. 500V is the bottom of the barrel but it seemed to be enough for the other two.

The controller I am thinking of building will be based on a completely different setup and would come with its own isolated power supplies designed to work with a specific IPM. I'd have to double check, but 1.5kv does sound about right for what they use.*EDIT: Scratch that; the isolation is 2500V on the design I am looking at.* I might use this old one as a template to get a program up and running on the new one but probably won't use the parts from it like I was thinking to do before.


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

Got a chance to try out the EV Display briefly today. So far it seems to be a product that performs as advertised (this is the highest praise I ever give).

Followed the online instructions and have it mounted temporarily next to the cluster inside. I decided to run it off of 4 cells near the sensor since that was the easiest way to get it running for now. After parking the car I unplugged it to avoid any drain. For now all I'm interested in is the amp draw from the DC bus since I know what the safe range of the car is (way beyond my short test drives!!!)

So far it seems the car can't pull 200 amps to save its life at speeds up to 50 MPH. Highest I saw was 193 with the pedal to the floor at the top end of 2nd gear.

The power cut out seems to be happening in the middle RPM range right as the amps are ramping up to ~164 - weird since it seems to be fine with higher amps under other conditions

It will pull around 190 amps fairly consistently on steeper hills if I am near the top of the RPM range but when accelerating or at lower RPMs, the power will cut out fairly predictably around the 160 mark.

Also got a chance to observe up to 50 amps of regen during an overspeed condition while descending a reasonably steep hill in 1st gear.

Now can some one remind me what the rough calculation of current draw for each phase would be assuming 200 amp in the DC bus???


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## Coulomb (Apr 22, 2009)

david85 said:


> Now can some one remind me what the rough calculation of current draw for each phase would be assuming 200 amp in the DC bus???


Yes! 

Oh, it's sqrt(2) / sqrt(3) times the DC bus current, so 200 A bus current means about 163 A RMS per phase (ignoring controller efficiency, IGBT drops, etc). If the controller is 95% efficient, then it's 155 A RMS per phase.

Sanity check: assume 144 V input, 95% efficiency on the controller. So that's 28.8 kW in, 27.4 kW out. 144 VDC is about 102 VAC; 102 * 155 * sqrt(3) = 27.4 kW. Sane


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

Thanks Coulomb! Your sanity is always much appreciated

Looks like the controller is working well within the limits of the parts. Now to figure out why its cutting out.


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

Reading through the datasheet for the controller IC, they recommend using an RC filter on the current sense circuits to prevent "unstable" signals or spikes. Wonder if that could be my problem but I don't remember if there was anything like that in there. I'll have to look into that.

Took the car for a short drive to measure up a jobsite today, and checked the 24V "prosthetic" battery when I got back. One of them had fallen to 11V while the other was still above 13 (the higher was likely the NiMH that I rebuilt a while ago). Pulled it apart and put them on charge. Looks like it lasts about a week of normal use provided I do not leave it plugged in when parked.

Not even an hour later while eating lunch I get a knock at the door. Have I mentioned lately just how awesome DigiKey is?

As you can see, physical size won't be an issue. Hope it works!


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## rwaudio (May 22, 2008)

Very nice, Digikey treats us Canadians pretty well!!
Hopefully that dc/dc converter works well for you, looking forward to your results.


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

OK I'm a little stumped at the moment. I have power connected to the power supply using that 24V battery I made up but I can't seem to get the 24V output. The documentation here is a little vague:

http://us.tdk-lambda.com/lp/ftp/Specs/cc-e.pdf

And I thought I'd ask for some direction before I start connecting things that could burn it.

I have;

+ Voltage In connected to pin 1
- Voltage In connected to pin 3

And Voltage out should be found across pins 4 and 7, no?
or is there a jumper that I have to wire in first?

So far I am getting no power.


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## Weisheimer (May 11, 2009)

david85 said:


> OK I'm a little stumped at the moment. I have power connected to the power supply using that 24V battery I made up but I can't seem to get the 24V output. The documentation here is a little vague:
> 
> http://us.tdk-lambda.com/lp/ftp/Specs/cc-e.pdf
> 
> ...


It looks to me like pin 2 (RC) should be tied to pin3 (-Vin) in order to have an output on the 6 watt model.


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

Just finished reading the same thing here:

http://us.tdk-lambda.com/lp/ftp/appnotes/cc-e_datasheet.pdf

tried it and it works.

Thanks!

Now to to put it in the controller.


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## Coulomb (Apr 22, 2009)

david85 said:


> As you can see, physical size won't be an issue. Hope it works!


Well, it might, indirectly. I see that your replacement is a CC3-2412DF-E, which is capable of 3 watts (and 24 V input, and 12x2 V output).

[ Edit: I misread the part number; it's a CC-6, capable of 6 watts. That should be fine. Sorry to have doubted you, David85! ]

The original has the number YND5-24S24, which suggests (I haven't looked it up) 5 watts, as well as 24 V input and a single 24 V output.

It may be that you will need more than three watts to turn a beefy IGBT on several thousand times per second. The instantaneous current required is generally in the amperes; the DC/DC can't supply that, so the capacitors do (for a very short time, of course). You may find the 24 V output sagging with the load, or overheating.

That could be why the replacement is physically smaller than the original.

I agree that the RC (stands for Remote Connect? I have no idea) input needs to be connected to -Vin to see any output.


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

Coulomb,

I have a CC6 version which is 6 watts rated output (PN CC6-2412DF-E). RC seems to stand for "remote control" and can be used to switch the power supply on and off remotely. They show a transistor being used as an example but I was thrown off by their explanation of what exactly qualifies as a "high state" or " low state" It seems low state does require grounding to allow it to run. Earlier I thought leaving it disconnected would place it in a low state - wrong.

Also confused the heck out of me with their "RC" acronym. I thought they meant resistor capacitor filter of some sort


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

It works!!!

17 kilometers at speeds just shy of 90KPH and it behaves as it always does. No signs of rejection of the new part so far, but my fingers are still numb from the drive. No heater and the outside temperature is quickly falling (about -3C right now). It'll bee a cold one tonight (well, for my area thats fairly chilly).

Took a little doing to get the new power supply onto the board since the polarity was reversed from the original chinese part. I installed it on the underside to get around that problem.


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## tomofreno (Mar 3, 2009)

Yoohoo! You've become quite the troubleshooter!


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## JRoque (Mar 9, 2010)

Congrats again, David! I would have never thought a 6 watt ps would have cut it driving that big of IGBTs. But, glad to see it worked.

JR


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

I've been so busy with work the last few weeks its not even funny but this sunday afternoon I had some breathing space to work on the car again.

So here's what happened over the last few weeks.

First, a quick connect for the bus voltage unplugged on my while driving
When I plugged it back in, I found a dead phase and had to limp the car home 
It turns out the power supply I replaced was killed by the cut off event so I ordered two new ones. One for replacement, then another one to have as a spare in case it does prove to be unreliable (That allowes me some breathing room to research a better one without having the car disabled).
Put it all back together and its completely dead - long story short, I reversed the gate drive connectors to one of the IGBTs! So its dead! great..... 

Ordered a new one (The chinese are FINALLY taking a shine to paypal!) and as of today its driving again


Now that this month's 'confession of an idiot' is out of the way - the better news. 

I've finally managed to disable the current limiter - and I now know how it works!

When driving before, the comfortable limit of the power as read on the EV display, was 20-22 kw. Any attempt to pass that, and the power would cut out. Although as mentioned a couple pages back, cut off can happen at lower power settings in the middle of the motor RPM range.

Today I was able to hit 28 kw of power and not once did the car puke itself during the drive (Horray! I finally reached the 1C/constant rating of the battery). The power difference is noticeable and whats nice is I don't have to worry about "stalling" it during an upshift on moderate acceleration. So far the controller seems to be maxing out in the area of 30 kw and there isn't any evidence so far of a massive uncontrolled current ramp up. More testing is needed but I'm feeling pretty good at the moment. I'll upload some photos later to help explain how I tricked it.

Eventually I will have to try tweaking the throttle signal, once I figure out how to fine tune the feedback loop. Its a bit sensitive at the moment and much of the pedal range isn't used with 100% power being delivered well before reaching the floor. I'm hoping that by spreading out the range it might reduce some of the jerky 0MPH starts too.


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

Here is a shot of the driver board. The main control chip is labelled and if you looke closely, you can see a jumper wire going across it. According to the datasheet, this is where the "current sense resistor" should be. The current sense resistor is uses to calibrate the overcurrent protection whenever 100MV is detected here. Based on the resistor value, you should be able to adjust the peak cut off but for the longest time I was trying to trace the current transducers on the output phases instead.

What I did first was put a 20 ohm resistor in series with that jumper, and it seemed to have an effect but I couldn't be sure. Then I tried a different one (Think it was 200 ohm) and it gave me the result I have today. So this doesn't exactly disable the current limiter, it just pushes the peak higher up, which is what I am looking for.


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## joshg678 (Jan 25, 2009)

Pretty cool stuff dave!

Now you think you will be able to race some people? haha


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

joshg678 said:


> Pretty cool stuff dave!
> 
> Now you think you will be able to race some people? haha


Depends on how hard they pedal LOL!

I am thinking it might be time to retest the top speed though.

The current limiter is still working as tested on the second drive today, but I have to get really stupid for it to throw (as in - neutral drop stupid). Max power seems to be limited to 28kw but it will pull that consistently without problems now. I've already evened the score with a few local hills

And about that splash guard I mentioned earlier - well better late than never. I took it off to get some extra cooling since it effectively blocks off most of the air flow from under the motor. And no overheating to report yet either, its running a little warmer, but still acceptable. I'll know more as I put some more miles on it.


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

One of my early goals with this car was to be able to drive to the next major city and back on a single charge with a comfortable safety margin. Campbell River is roughly 45km from the City of Courtenay depending on the route and where in each city you are headed to. We had to pickup some new shop equipment in Courtenay today anyway so my Dad doubled as the chase vehicle for today's experiment. Since he was towing a trailer for the machines, the idea was to just leave the car on the side of the road should something go wrong and bring my truck with the tow bar later, but fourtunately that wasn't needed.​ 
The route we took was 19A (known to locals as the "old island highway"). Other than a brief 4 lane section, this is 2 lanes and maximum posted speed limit of 80kph. Up until now, I preferred to use route 19 which is 4 lanes all the way and posted limit of 110. Even though 19 has more hills that are longer and the speed limit is higher, its safer due to low traffic volume (relative to its capacity) and its very easy to pull over almost anywere along the length. Being 2 lanes in each direction, its also easy for anyone to get around me if I am not driving 10 over the limit like most do on that road.​ 
Other than for a single 60kph zone or a slower vehicle in front of me, the average speed was about 85kph. Power consumption at that speed varied due to wind or hills but it generally settled around 12~13 kw. This is the first real trip I ever took on this road and was able to cruise at such mild speeds for extended periods. 19A doesn't deviate much from sea level in this area, nor are there many stoplights so its an easy road to get good mileage on.​ 
When arriving in courtenay, I checked the motor temperature and it was at 72C. Not bad considering how hot I managed to get it before. When I checked it later after getting home, the temperature was 60C. Had some shopping to do and loaded the car up just 'cus'.​ 
On the way home we stopped for some gardening supplies in campbell river before finally calling it a day.​ 
Here's how the day stacked up.​ 
Total distance : 100km (or possibly 109 if my assumption on tire diameter is true - what can I say, I need a GPS...)
SOC at home : 39%
Battery "Fuel" : 23%
Still loving the "EV display" BTW​ 
Depending on how much my numbers and readings can be believed, that works out to 179.1 wr/mile *(<--EDIT oops meant to say per kilometer....)* assuming 9% speedo error (195 assuming accurate speedo). That seems a bit optimistic since I had a passenger with me the whole time, and the car was loaded with extra stuff for half of the journey (the 2 square bags of peat moss were only in for the last 6 KM of the trip).​ 
A couple changes I made with the car recently were swapping the transaxle fluid back to the correct ATF (ran gear oil temporarily) and correcting a massive front end toe out. I don't know how much difference this will really make but they certainly were not helping.​ 
Overall I am quite happy with how the car performed today and we were able to stuff all sorts of bulky and heavy crap in it thanks to the below trunk battery box. Not much hypermiling going on either especially once I got into traffic in the 'bigger' city. The car is currently munching away on a well earned recharge.​ 
Took some photos when we got home. In hindsight I could have better documented the trip (like taking photos of the car in courtenay) but most of the day turned out in a spur of the moment​


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## JRoque (Mar 9, 2010)

That's phenomenal, David, congrats! Nice to know you're keeping up with traffic and even after taking a long trip, the temp is low and stable. Excellent range as well seeing you ended up with 39% SOC. Good also that you're not just 'testing' but putting the car to work picking up stuff.

For how much time did you drive continuously on that trip? ATF on a manual transmission? Never knew that.

JR


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## joshg678 (Jan 25, 2009)

I always ran the synthetic ATF in my saturns. It Helped keep the temps down in the trans better then normal aft, and synthetic is usually slipper which will help lower the resistance. 

Fixing your Toe out will help improve your range for sure.


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

JRoque said:


> That's phenomenal, David, congrats! Nice to know you're keeping up with traffic and even after taking a long trip, the temp is low and stable. Excellent range as well seeing you ended up with 39% SOC. Good also that you're not just 'testing' but putting the car to work picking up stuff.
> 
> For how much time did you drive continuously on that trip? ATF on a manual transmission? Never knew that.
> 
> JR


I'd say about 80% of the distance was highway, the rest was dense urban stop & go traffic in 50 kph speed zones (including having to double back when I forgot one of the parts at the store).

A lot of stick shift transmissions use ATF these days. Well actually its been that way for a while. The transfer cases in all out pickups (years 86, 87 and 93) have ATF and the manual tranny in the 87 ranger also calls for ATF. I know ford 3/4 ton pickups from that era also use ATF in the stick shift options.

I was just delighted to see the car humming along with only 12kw draw and still keep up. Usually I'm a bit of a lead foot with the car since I use it for pretty much all my around town errands and lets face it - the darn thing is so cheap to run, why bother going easy on it?



joshg678 said:


> I always ran the synthetic ATF in my saturns. It Helped keep the temps down in the trans better then normal aft, and synthetic is usually slipper which will help lower the resistance.
> 
> Fixing your Toe out will help improve your range for sure.


I noticed my transaxle was getting a bit warm with the gear oil and the differential in my pickup will also get close to 60C after being parked from a long highway run. After chatting with folks on other forums I'm enclined to switch the diffy lube in my truck and would consider doing the same for the saturn transmission. Unfortunately, I still have a minor leak at the input shaft seal it seems, so I'll keep it as is unitil I can work that out.

But yes, for only 2.5L of fluid, I would consider synthetic in there eventually.


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

After yesterday's success, and good weather conditions today, I decided to push my luck. Long story short, I can say with confidence that my car's 
*maximum range is in fact NOT 100 miles......*

I was also able to line the car up on highway markers that are spaced 0.5km apart. Eyeballing my trip meter while passing over them, I figured on a 10% underestimate for the trip meter, so my ~9% assumption for odometer error isn't out of line.

Today it was just me in the car with a bottle of water, volt meter, cell phone and IR thermometer. I was also doing my best to keep a light foot and average speeds were slightly lower usually topping out at 80 indicated (although with speedo error this might be as high as 87.2......maybe thats why no one was tailgating me all this time). In any case, there were 60 kph speed zones along the way, and a few stoplights on my way through Courtenay but over all traffic was pleasant.

Watching my odometer climb and "fuel gauge" drop, I figured I would turn around at 80km or 50% fuel - whichever came first. I made it as far as 78 km and found a safe place to turn around. The location was Gainsburg road in Deep bay

http://maps.google.ca/maps?f=d&sour....699615,-124.768982&spn=0.723014,2.694397&z=9

I took some photos of the car's vitals at the turnaround (motor temp was 82C) along with it parked in front of a sign near the entrance to Deep Bay.

Note that according to my "fudge factor" of 9%, the actual distance is 85km, while google maps indicates about 81.4 going strictly by the route. For my purposes, either number will do. Now to see if it would get home without having to call for a tow. I've never been that far from home with "100km" staring back at me on the trip meter.

(kilometres x 0.611 = miles)


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

Just kidding. I made it with reserve to spare.

Going by google's number for distance, it works out to 81.4km x 2 x 0.611 = 99.5 miles

With my numbers, it works out to 85km x 2 x 0.611 = 103.87 miles

Either one will do


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## GizmoEV (Nov 28, 2009)

Awesome news, David.


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## JRoque (Mar 9, 2010)

ahh man, you had me in pins and needles there for a min. I was waiting for the "and then I had to call my Dad for a tow". Nice, solid performance of an obviously more than 100 miles range EV. So you just built yourself a Nissan Leaf class car with better range and a whole lot cheaper. A car you can (and have) fix when it breaks down and can continue to enhance just the way you want it. Can't get better than that, congrats!

JR


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## Jan (Oct 5, 2009)

Great work David.

Btw is over 80C not a bit hot for the motor?


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

If it's "H" rated insulation it's good to 180C.


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## MN Driver (Sep 29, 2009)

Great job David, awesome to see your car that has passed 100 miles with extra energy to spare.

I'm thinking about getting HiPower cells(might get a good deal on some cells from 2008), did they still have plenty of grunt at 24% SOC? I'll have to look back at how they perform for you over the winter and if you have any battery heating because I don't remember.

Edit: I couldn't find much, it seemed that between some of the controller issues that timed themselves out during the colder months and salty roads and no heat, have you had much sub-freezing experience on the road to see any performance differences?


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## Coulomb (Apr 22, 2009)

JRP3 said:


> If it's "H" rated insulation it's good to 180C.


Yes, but this is a permanent magnet motor. At what temperature do the magnets forget that they're supposed to stay in their organized domains?

Ok, I looked it up before posting... looks like it's at least 310C. I think David85 is safe from demagnetization.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neodymium_magnet


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## tomofreno (Mar 3, 2009)

Ahhh! I was afraid you weren't going to make it! Congratulations! Good range - about 100 miles at about 50 mph average speed. I don't think the motor should get that hot, if it had its fan blades. I've not seen mine out of the 60's C, even in 36 C ambient. I've not driven continuously for more than about 35 miles at higher speeds though. Still, the temperature seems to level off there. Also remains in the 60's climbing a mountain road for around 25 minutes with average current of about 180A. That temperature shouldn't do any harm to the motor though.


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## tomofreno (Mar 3, 2009)

> Ok, I looked it up before posting... looks like it's at least 310C. I think David85 is safe from demagnetization.


 Yeah, you'll burn the insulation off the wiring way before you hit the Curie point of rare earth magnets.


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## joshg678 (Jan 25, 2009)

Pretty sweet david!
I really want to convert my saturn to an electric I drive 70 miles a day, would be awesome if i could do it on electricity.


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## Dave Koller (Nov 15, 2008)

Nice work David!


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

GizmoEV said:


> Awesome news, David.


Thanks!



JRoque said:


> ahh man, you had me in pins and needles there for a min. I was waiting for the "and then I had to call my Dad for a tow". Nice, solid performance of an obviously more than 100 miles range EV. So you just built yourself a Nissan Leaf class car with better range and a whole lot cheaper. A car you can (and have) fix when it breaks down and can continue to enhance just the way you want it. Can't get better than that, congrats!
> 
> JR


Don't mind me, I just try to be funny sometimes.

I'm really curious to see how the leaf does in the real world once some more miles are put on them by real owners. The leaf and ford focus EV are probably the two cars made by OEMs that resemble mine the closest in terms of range and seating capacity.



Jan said:


> Great work David.
> 
> Btw is over 80C not a bit hot for the motor?


It is - and having discovered recently that my cooling fan is hooped, I know why

Its not going to hurt the motor I don't think, but it is higher than average and most motors in this situation would run much cooler.



JRP3 said:


> If it's "H" rated insulation it's good to 180C.


Mine's actually class F, but that still gives plenty of headroom
http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/nema-insulation-classes-d_734.html



MN Driver said:


> Great job David, awesome to see your car that has passed 100 miles with extra energy to spare.
> 
> I'm thinking about getting HiPower cells(might get a good deal on some cells from 2008), did they still have plenty of grunt at 24% SOC? I'll have to look back at how they perform for you over the winter and if you have any battery heating because I don't remember.
> 
> Edit: I couldn't find much, it seemed that between some of the controller issues that timed themselves out during the colder months and salty roads and no heat, have you had much sub-freezing experience on the road to see any performance differences?


They did still have some grunt at the end, which was also a pleasant surprise. Performance had dropped off a little but when I tromped on the car a few kilometers from home, it was still pulling reasonably well and the controller could still draw 22 kw (more than enough to get me to 100 kph). 

One thing I did notice in colder weather, is to NOT drive the car after it was sitting overnight and had more than 100km on the charge. It didn't hurt anything but by then the battery had cooled and performance drop becomes more noticeable. These batteries tend to consistently heat up at least 5 degrees C over ambient temperature, and that seems to make a significant difference in performance. Charging them will also cause them to warm up a similar amount. This allowed me to charge the car even when outside temperature was below 0C.

When I started out yesterday, the battery temp was about 15C and the car was parked in the shade (in roughly the same temp). After driving for about 10 km, the temp was close to 20C, where it stayed for most of the day. By the time I got home, it was closer to 25C, which was still roughly 5C above ambient temp.

Long story short regarding temperature, range, and performance is to use the rated capacity all at once if you have a long trip to do. That way battery temperature helps compensate for the natural drop off in performance toward the lower end of the charge. If I stayed within 50-60% SOC and leave it to sit overnight, the drop in performance wasn't really noticeable anymore.

I don't have any battery heaters but they could certainly help out in winter based on my observations. One of my concerns early on was to see if cooling in the summer would be a bigger issue than heating in the winter. So far, overheating of the pack seems to be a non - issue. If nothing else, I could see a 110V heater system similar to an engine block heater to just get the battery a little warm before starting out on a cold drive. Once rolling, the heat generated should keep things warm enough to not have to use energy for direct heating once you are rolling.

Oh and yes, my fingers were getting numb on longer trips in the winter - especially over 90 kph (I was still able to reach 110 even near freezing temps). The upside is that despite the car being black, its not too hot in the summer even though there's no aircon. Amazing what the lack of engine, radiator, exhaust and catalytic covnerter will do - again, as long as I'm moving. I kept the windows rolled up for most of the drive.



Coulomb said:


> Yes, but this is a permanent magnet motor. At what temperature do the magnets forget that they're supposed to stay in their organized domains?
> 
> Ok, I looked it up before posting... looks like it's at least 310C. I think David85 is safe from demagnetization.
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neodymium_magnet


Wow, thanks! that puts my mind at ease. So far I had it up to 95C on a drive this winter and I haven't noticed any drop in performance.



tomofreno said:


> Ahhh! I was afraid you weren't going to make it! Congratulations! Good range - about 100 miles at about 50 mph average speed. I don't think the motor should get that hot, if it had its fan blades. I've not seen mine out of the 60's C, even in 36 C ambient. I've not driven continuously for more than about 35 miles at higher speeds though. Still, the temperature seems to level off there. Also remains in the 60's climbing a mountain road for around 25 minutes with average current of about 180A. That temperature shouldn't do any harm to the motor though.


Thanks for humoring my silly antics That makes two that played along.

I'll try and locate a new fan but I'm not sure where to look. I suppose the other option is to just plumb in a completely separate fan like some of the newer warP motors use. Then I can set it up to cycle on and off only when needed and it can run even if the motor isn't. There is a local industrial motor facility that services motors, but they won't even talk to me without a $250 minimum charge.

The big unknown I had with this test was if the indicated power drain for the top half of the battery cycle would be close to that of the bottom half. In other words, is 50% really 50% when indicated on the meter? The answer to that seems to be yes, and that puts much of my range anxiety to rest. I had no idea if I was going to make home it either, but after passing a few landmarks on the way and getting a sense for the number of k's coverd for each % in battery drop, it started looking good. Even though the fuel inidcated 50% at the halfway point, I was still worried there might be a cliff-like drop off near the bottom of the charge, but it never happened and I didn't have to dip into the reserve at all.

I figured the practical range of the car would be closer to 80 miles and then "once in a while" stretch to 100 for rare occasions but this exceeded my expectations.


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

joshg678 said:


> Pretty sweet david!
> I really want to convert my saturn to an electric I drive 70 miles a day, would be awesome if i could do it on electricity.


Thanks,

And hey, you never know. Batteries are only getting better at this point and prices don't seem to be going up so there's no rush.



Dave Koller said:


> Nice work David!


Thanks!


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

External fan gives the benefit of still cooling the motor at low speeds and when stopped, and not running at all if the temperature is low enough.


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## joshg678 (Jan 25, 2009)

Cooling is always a good idea. You can't ever overcool something (using just air) but you can always overheat.


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

I might have a possible source for a replacement fan here:
http://www.jenkins.com/SpecialtyParts/tabid/115/Default.aspx (haven't contacted them yet since I need the dimensions of mine first and for that, the motor has to come out)

But I'm wondering if it might be possible to convert the motor to water cooling using copper pipe and thermally conductive silicone adhesive such as this:

http://www.acc-silicones.com/content/products/as1802.ashx

My idea is to lay the copper tubes between the heat sink fins of the motor case on a bed of the silicone compound and use that to draw heat away from the motor case.

It would probably look crappy with all that goop and tubes, but could it actually work?


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Sounds like overkill, and a lot of work. Air cooling is so much easier, and should be plenty for the power levels you're working with.


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## John (Sep 11, 2007)

david85 said:


> But I'm wondering if it might be possible to convert the motor to water cooling using copper pipe and thermally conductive silicone adhesive such as this:
> 
> http://www.acc-silicones.com/content/products/as1802.ashx
> 
> My idea is to lay the copper tubes between the heat sink fins of the motor case on a bed of the silicone compound and use that to draw heat away from the motor case.


High thermal conductivity for silicon is relative to other silicon products. Thermal conductivity of copper is 393 W/mK and for aluminum its 225 W/mK. For this conductive silicon its 2.3 W/mK or about 1% the conductivity of aluminum. Thermal resistance is proportional to the thickness (or length of thermal path) and inversely proportional to the cross sectional area (area of contact) of the thermal conductor so maximizing the area of tube in contact with the cooling fins and minimizing the thickness of the silicon would help the performance. Note;- Watts per meter per Kelvin, the meter dimension is cross section in meters squared divided by thickness in meters, Kelvin is temperature differential across the conductor and could equally be in degrees centigrade.


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## infantry11b (Feb 6, 2010)

joshg678 said:


> Pretty sweet david!
> I really want to convert my saturn to an electric I drive 70 miles a day, would be awesome if i could do it on electricity.


i hope electricity is cheap where you are.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

It's gotta be cheaper than gas no matter where he lives.


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

Well to give you an idea, this is my rough cost per kilometer in terms of electricity cost alone.

$0.12CAD/kwh (our rate after fees, taxes, eco charges and other crap)
Battery capacity 32kwh
charger efficiency 88% (according to spec - I'll assume 85% for this example)

$0.12 x 32 / 0.85% = ~$4.52 CAD

My 100 mile distance yesterday only used 76% of that so

$4.52 x 0.76 = $3.43

so $3.43 / 100miles = $0.03433341176.......... dollars per mile. Or roughly 3.4¢ per mile.

This cars should get about 36 MPG when new, so with fuel here costing roughly $4.83/US gallon, that would go something like this:

$4.83 / 36 miles = $0.1344 dollars per mile or roughly 13.4¢ per mile.
So yesterday's trip would have cost $13.44 instead of $3.4.

*EDIT* Put a hundred thousand miles on the car (or 1000 cycles) and you're looking at $13440 worth of gasoline. Put another 100 000 miles on and its $26880 worth of fuel at today's rate. Keep in mind my battery is rated for 1000 -1500 cycles at 85% depth of discharge and could easily reach 2000 by keeping it around 75% DOD. However keep in mind that this was the first time EVER I took that many miles from a single charge and most times I recharge well before the 50% mark. Shelf life will determine the life of this battery, not cycle life.

Seems pretty good to me. Although the upfront investment can be steep for a long range car like mine, not everyone needs a 100 mile range.


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

John said:


> High thermal conductivity for silicon is relative to other silicon products. Thermal conductivity of copper is 393 W/mK and for aluminum its 225 W/mK. For this conductive silicon its 2.3 W/mK or about 1% the conductivity of aluminum. Thermal resistance is proportional to the thickness (or length of thermal path) and inversely proportional to the cross sectional area (area of contact) of the thermal conductor so maximizing the area of tube in contact with the cooling fins and minimizing the thickness of the silicon would help the performance. Note;- Watts per meter per Kelvin, the meter dimension is cross section in meters squared divided by thickness in meters, Kelvin is temperature differential across the conductor and could equally be in degrees centigrade.


Thanks. 

I was thinking that the copper tubes could be pressed into the rounded valleys between the fins to keep clearance between copper and cast iron case to a minimum, thus keeping the silicone as thin as possible. The tubes themselves would probably need a set of band clamps to keep them in place once set.


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## tomofreno (Mar 3, 2009)

> I'll try and locate a new fan but I'm not sure where to look. I suppose the other option is to just plumb in a completely separate fan like some of the newer warP motors use.


 You might go to a junk yard and pull a heater blower from a car. I would guess those are better than 400 cfm on max setting, which should do a good job with a 3" dia hose to the entrance to your motor. Lot cheaper than buying new, and should be reliable.


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## tomofreno (Mar 3, 2009)

> i hope electricity is cheap where you are.


 Should be if he charges at night. I would use about 130Ah to drive 70 miles at 50 mph, or about 15kWh. That's about $1.50 at 10 cents per kwh.


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## JRoque (Mar 9, 2010)

Hi.



david85 said:


> *EDIT* Put a hundred thousand miles on the car (or 1000 cycles) and you're looking at $13440 worth of gasoline. Put another 100 000 miles on and its $26880 worth of fuel at today's rate.


And, just to repeat myself on another post, don't forget the savings of not having an ICE. The oil/fluids, hoses, belts, pumps for this and that, plugs, the ever amusing "service" every so many miles, etc. Whatever you put in to buy your cells and drive will be paid for long before the car gives up and then it's nearly free driving.

JR


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## joshg678 (Jan 25, 2009)

infantry11b said:


> i hope electricity is cheap where you are.


Its about $100 for 1,000 kWh after all taxes/etc.
I spend that in gas every 3 weeks or less, and my house uses about 1,300kWh every month with old leaky windows and a 18 year old a/c unit.


David, how much juice does your car take to charge after a 100 miles?


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

joshg678 said:


> Its about $100 for 1,000 kWh after all taxes/etc.
> I spend that in gas every 3 weeks or less, and my house uses about 1,300kWh every month with old leaky windows and a 18 year old a/c unit.
> 
> 
> David, how much juice does your car take to charge after a 100 miles?


By calculation, roughly 28kw including 15% loss in the charger. 

Going by your $0.10 /kwh it would (in theory) cost you $2.80 to drive my car 100 miles (at 50 mph) in forgiving driving conditions.

For 75 miles it would be $2.08.

But again thats all estimates.

There are wall meters you can get to measure electricity to figure a more accurate number but I don't have one. JRP3 has one I think, but aside from similar battery chemistry, there isn't much our two cars have in common.

*Hey JRP3,* did you ever do a comparison from measured to observed power consumption?


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## Anaerin (Feb 4, 2009)

david85 said:


> Thanks.
> 
> I was thinking that the copper tubes could be pressed into the rounded valleys between the fins to keep clearance between copper and cast iron case to a minimum, thus keeping the silicone as thin as possible. The tubes themselves would probably need a set of band clamps to keep them in place once set.


What you need is something that's properly thermally conductive. Something like Arctic Silver's Thermally Conducting Epoxy would fit the bill perfectly, and provide excellent bonding and heat transfer.

Or you could just seal in the fins in a watertight container, and run the water directly over them.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

david85 said:


> By calculation, roughly 28kw including 15% loss in the charger.


15% seems pretty high.


> *Hey JRP3,* did you ever do a comparison from measured to observed power consumption?


You mean compare what my EV display shows and what I use from the wall? If so, no, but Tomofreno has the same charger, PFC30, and CALB cells, 180's, and I think he measured about 93% charge efficiency.


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## tomofreno (Mar 3, 2009)

93% is about right. I measured it for about 4 different charge current levels. Compared input power to the charger from the wall measured with the EKM to output power to the pack, product of DC current and voltage measured with the TBS.


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

93% is not bad at all. Although even with my 15% loss assumption, the operating cost is still pretty darned good.

The only way to be sure is to actually measure the readings but I don't have that equipment yet.


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## JRoque (Mar 9, 2010)

Hey David. You're being so conservative with your numbers. First, it seems your Saturn, when new in '96, gave 23 city, 33 highway MPG, not 36. Your charger is likely to be more than 85% efficient on average during a charge cycle. All of this is in your favor for your savings calculations. With a 32kW pack, of course you get 100 miles range.

You've built a killer car. It's ok to brag a little. If it were me, I'd make ">100 mile club" t-shirts and make all my family, friends and neighbors wear it 

JR


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

LOL, you crack me up

I thought the saturn was 36 MPG though. I must have been thinking about this one: 

http://www.mpgfacts.com/?r=g&make=Saturn&year=2001

I remember looking it up a while back and noting that MPGs for the SL series peaked around the early 2000s, then started to drop off again toward the end if its production run. So I guess I'm guilty of "cherry picking" by comparing against the best performing SL instead of the same year

One more thing I didn't mention yet is when testing the 12.8V sample back in 2008, I observed a capacity that was closer to 210 ah instead of the advertised 200 ah and that was with the battery running around 15C temps (winter for us). SE and TS LiFePO4 batteries also seem to be conservatively rated in this way, going by what others are posting. I set up my EV display to only assume a 200ah total reserve.

It also appears that capacity tends to peak around the 500 cycle mark before leveling off according to specs (I'd have to double check, but hipower, sky energy and thindersky all seem to show a similar pattern), so range could improve slightly, in theory. I don't even know how long it could take me to get to the true 500 cycle mark though

Whats nice about this, is the 100 mile range of the car should remain well into the service life of the battery as the years drag on. In theory at least, we never know until we build it


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## infantry11b (Feb 6, 2010)

thanks for the figures but as oil goes up so does electricity. everything goes up. and in so cal we have some fake baseline formula and when you exceed it, like charging your car every day you will pay 30 cents per kwh for it.

and then there is the taxes on top of that based on a percentage of your bill. not unusual to run an additional 30% of the bill in taxes.

12 cents is way in the deep past.



david85 said:


> Well to give you an idea, this is my rough cost per kilometer in terms of electricity cost alone.
> 
> $0.12CAD/kwh (our rate after fees, taxes, eco charges and other crap)
> Battery capacity 32kwh
> ...


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## GizmoEV (Nov 28, 2009)

infantry11b said:


> 12 cents is way in the deep past.


I am very thankful for my $0.056/kWh electricity here. That is up from $0.0512/kWh. Unfortunately there is going to be another price increase in the next few months but I don't expect it to go over $0.06/kWh.

Cost aside, I'd rather keep my money here at home than send it overseas. Besides, just about everything can be converted to electricity. Last I checked, we didn't have a way of converting sun light, water, or wind to oil.


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

I spent most of the day starting on some wiring cleanup in the car. First thing I wanted to do was move the DC/DC converter from its location in front (and sort of below) the motor controller to the small compartment that until now was largely unused in the trunk box. It saves space under the hood, and also keeps it out of harms way.

The red marretts are temporary and there are other wiring issues to clean up but for now the converter is in its new location and I can still drive the car as is. The idea is to cover nearly all of the wiring that is currently exposed under the hood and make it safer and a bit more presentable.


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

Most of the work involved running 2 new conduits under the car for the 12V related wiring and the 160V line that was needed to feed the converter in the new location.

Crawling under this car all day also made me start thinking more seriously about a belly pan (I made sure that everything I added under the car will clear the sheet when the time comes). I have the sheet aluminum in stock but its just a matter of finding the time. Looking at old location for where the fuel tank went, it seems to be a rather large air brake.

Also a bit ironic that the only part left in the car thats vacant is the location for the fuel tank. In theory I could try adding another small battery module there but I don't see the point.


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## joshg678 (Jan 25, 2009)

More Batteries sounds awesome to me! haha


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## JRoque (Mar 9, 2010)

Hey David. If I keep posting on your thread I'll have more posts than you do...

Aren't those fans on the controller too close to the hood for proper air displacement? Or if they blow air down, onto the controller, then air from a hot hood might be less effective. Sorry if I'm blowing it out of proportion. I live in a walk-in oven so heat is a major concern for me.

As for a belly pan, I'm not sure you'll get much out of it in terms of aerodynamics. By the time the air gets there it will be rather turbulent to do anything with it. Closing down the front grill might have a better impact. To protect and hold the lines, I would use small strips or maybe metal clamps.

BTW, your 4 door Saturn's original 33 MPG trounces my stupid little VW Cabrio's 26 MPG. I don't have a roof, missing 2 doors and can barely fit my two kids in the back seat. Your car's EV-1 heritage makes it a great conversion platform.

JR


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

The fans are a bit close to the hood but so far it doesn't seem to matter. I flipped them such that they they push air up instead of down to avoid drawing air directly from the heated surface. Although the hood does still add radiant heat to the controller on hot days. The fans sometimes come on just from being parked in the sun. The main contacter inside the controller also lacks a PMD optimizer and tends to contribute a small amount of heat to the controller. I wonder if some reflective foil glued to the hood could help reduce some of the heat transfer....

I might try something bigger for attaching the new lines but for now I wanted to avoid adding more holes in the floor. I live in a salt belt, which is why the idea of using plastic to attach the lines appealed to me. Also they would have been protected by the metal belly pan if I decided to go that route (I would use actual sheet metal instead of simple flashing thickness tin). In any case, nothing is perminant about the current setup.

As for the saturn's MPGs, I hear some guys over on ecomodder averaging into the low 40s. There is even a small forum out there for TDI conversions and one documented build is into the low 60s!


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

Been a while since I updated this. And there's plenty to update.

After spending nearly a month this summer trying to repair the controller AGAIN, I threw in the towel and forked out for a warp 9" impulse and soliton jr controller. Got the warp 9 because it was in stock and is a tried and true motor. I've heard nothing but good things about the soliton as well. It is a little on the heavy side compared to other up and coming contemporary designs but is easily half the weight of the BLDC controller it will be replacing. 

I was making progress, but then one of the IGBTs made a loud pop and I could see some soot leaking out of the case Even if I could repair it again, its just not worth the trouble and now that I'm starting college, I won't have time to dick around with stuff like this anymore. Its 5 days a week and the instructor keeps warning us that it will be a heavy work load. First two weeks will be easier, but the rest will not.

If anyone is wondering why I went with the junior instead of the soliton 1, well there are a few reasons for that.

One, was cost. The S1 is a $3000 controller.

Two, do I really need 1000 amps? (I can already hear the snickering in the EVnetics crowd). My batteries are 200 ah and rated at 5C for 15 seconds, or 1000 amps. Nearly 200 Hp electrical. Yes it would have been nice, but I built the car for range, not tire burning - which is generally easier to do.

Three, was size. The soliton 1 is relatively compact for what it is, but the over all length is quite long. After much measuring, I concluded that it would have been impossible to fit under the hood of my car and would have had to be installed in the truck - something I am very touchy about since I managed to keep the trunk clear so far.

Even 500 amps is probably more than I'll be setting the the system up for initially. Under most conditions, 200 amps was enough for me, so I'm thinking 300 amps at the most for now. That gives me a wide safety net for motor, controller and battery. 200 amps was more than enough for the car to pass 75 MPH. And since the soliton is software integrated and fully programmable, I can tune it any way I want within its limits. Another reason I figured to toss my BLDC setup since it was strictly hard wired analogue. Jerky starts off the line were always a pet peeve since it was more a speed control than torque control.

Bought them through Randy at Canadian Electric Vehicles so it seems he is now a dealer for EVnetics (your welcome, Tesseract, Qer). Randy also let me take his new electric beetle for a spin when I picked up the motor - very nice setup. Powered by the AC50 setup, it really moves. He's also got Dimitri's BMS setup in there and its just a great, clean setup. Its really amazing how smooth, quiet and torquy that car is.

Right now the new warp motor is installed with the adaptor plate modified and mounts all finalized. I also made some improvements with the mounts and think it should hold more rigid this time around. The half shaft bearing support is much simpler this time around too, thanks to provision on the warp motor case for two threaded bolt holes at the factory.

Since the warp motor has mounting patterns right on the rear end housing, the brackets are much simpler and stronger this time around. Since the soliton has provision for a tachometer (and max RPM limiter), I bought a tach drive at the same time and will be using that. Its the same off the shelf unit that warp offers. And since the soliton also has a pulse converter, I should be able to run the car's factory tachometer as well. The main reason for getting the tach sensor was I didn't want to run the risk of a motor overspeed if some person tried reving it in neutral or made a mistake while shifting. That was one thing about the BLDC setup that was nice. It stopped itself at about 4400 RPM no matter the pedal position.

I am waiting on parts for the transmission at the moment.
The front seal leaks and it has to be pressed out as an assembly with the front input shaft bearing. They call it the "quill bearing" or something like that.....why they couldn't just use a simple separate seal like normal people is beyond me. I'm checking my rock auto tracking number at least twice a day. It will probably be here by mid to late week.

Whats really dumb is the front seal/bearing can only be replaced by tearing the transmission apart to separate the front half of the case and put it in a press. Not a big deal for me, but it could get really expensive if you had to pay a shop to do it. We had to take the front case half off anyway for some of the CNC work to attach the motor.

Now I apologize for not posting more photos right now but with some late summer work getting wrapped up and starting school, time was a bit tight in the shop so all I have for you at the moment are a few snaps of the controller out of the car, and the motor installed. I'll take more shots when the final assembly happens. The transmission has no guts in it right now, so everything will be coming out at least one more time.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Sorry to hear about the ongoing problems with the BLDC but glad you're still plugging along. Question though, can't the Soliton limit max motor rev's?


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

JRP3 said:


> Sorry to hear about the ongoing problems with the BLDC but glad you're still plugging along.


Thanks, but at the same time I learned a lot about small ICs and mild electronics along the way, so I'll just put it down as the cost of learning (thats what I'm telling myself at least)



JRP3 said:


> Question though, can't the Soliton limit max motor rev's?


Yes, but it needs the RPM sensor on the motor. Reread my post and I guess I wasn't clear about that. The first reason for getting the tach sensor was to feed into the motor controller precisely for the built in Rev limiter. Secondary is that it should be able to drive the car's tachometer in the cluster instruments.


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## Jan (Oct 5, 2009)

Sorry to hear David, but your determination impresses me everytime.


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## joshg678 (Jan 25, 2009)

Sorry to hear about the loss david. Glad to see you are finding a better solution. If you are lucky this system will be more efficient and give you better range


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

joshg678 said:


> Sorry to hear about the loss david. Glad to see you are finding a better solution. If you are lucky this system will be more efficient and give you better range


I'm really not sure what to expect. Some trains of thought are that brushless systems are more efficient at the motor, but loose out in a more complex controller. I don't know if EVnetics rate their controller efficiency, but it would not surprise me at all if their controller is more efficient than the chinese setup I was running. Thats not hard to imagine at all!

I also noticed that my motor always had a tendancy to run on the warm side even before the fan busted on me.

If you go to warp LLC's website and look at the efficiency of their motors, the warp 9 is right near the top of all of their motors, which was another reason I went with it even though its a few pounds heavier than the smaller 8" motor, which would have had plenty of power for my car.

I'd be happy just to keep the range I had before, but even if I loose out on a little, the car still should still be able to top out at 100 miles per charge, which was all I was ever really after. If I get a little more by some miracle, well you'll sure hear about that!


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## tomofreno (Mar 3, 2009)

Its been a long haul. I remember you considering purchasing the BLDC motor from China back in the spring of 2009 when I was considering what motor to purchase and decided on the AC50 from HPEVS because I wasn't willing to take the risk you were. The new components should be trouble free, and a lot more powerful. Better get it finished before school starts, or it will sit a long time I would guess. 

I agree you learned a lot. It is not just what you learned there. What you learned will enable you to learn more, give you the insight to understand a bit more complex related things, and then build on that. The compounded knowledge may well earn you far more than the motor and controller cost you. What are you majoring in?


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## Coulomb (Apr 22, 2009)

david85 said:


> I'm really not sure what to expect. Some trains of thought are that brushless systems are more efficient at the motor, but loose out in a more complex controller.


There are many factors, as you say. In fact, the best way to compare AC and DC is to build both into the same vehicle. The opportunities for that are rare, since few users remove one system and then install the other, and usually the voltages are significantly different. For a variety of reasons, your vehicle will be one of the few that can provide some real-world evidence on this question!


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

tomofreno said:


> Its been a long haul. I remember you considering purchasing the BLDC motor from China back in the spring of 2009 when I was considering what motor to purchase and decided on the AC50 from HPEVS because I wasn't willing to take the risk you were. The new components should be trouble free, and a lot more powerful. Better get it finished before school starts, or it will sit a long time I would guess.
> 
> I agree you learned a lot. It is not just what you learned there. What you learned will enable you to learn more, give you the insight to understand a bit more complex related things, and then build on that. The compounded knowledge may well earn you far more than the motor and controller cost you.


If I had to do it all over again or advise some one else doing a similar build (not out for tire roasting, but still reasonable power), I would have gone with higher AH batteries and fitted a 108V AC50 system. Seriously, the setup is just that good. Rumor has it curtis is looking at making a 144V controller that might work with the same AC motor but who knows when that will be out.

I think another issue I had with the AC50 system is I ordered the battery before knowing about it and my system voltage would have been too high.



tomofreno said:


> What are you majoring in?


Electronics 
The first two weeks are going to be easier, but the instructor keeps warning us that it will get tough after that. As long as I can get it running before then, I should be ok. If I had all the parts in front of me, I probably wouldn't need more than a weekend to get it all back together.

First year: http://www.nic.bc.ca/program/electronics_technician_electronics_core
Second year: http://www.nic.bc.ca/program/electronics_technician_industrial_electronics_specialty



Coulomb said:


> There are many factors, as you say. In fact, the best way to compare AC and DC is to build both into the same vehicle. The opportunities for that are rare, since few users remove one system and then install the other, and usually the voltages are significantly different. For a variety of reasons, your vehicle will be one of the few that can provide some real-world evidence on this question!


Your welcome LOL
Although I'm not sure what it will prove since we have no real way to know what the efficiency of the old setup was. Going out on a limb, I'm thinking the total efficiency will be about the same but we'll have to wait and see. Hearing from other people running similar weight cars and the same warp9 motor, they rarely reach 60C temperature (which is what mine ran often at when the fan was still working). But at the same time, my motor was a TEFC which can't cool as well as the internal fan on the warp so that's apples to oranges comparing too.

A nicer test would be if I could get the AC50 motor in there running the same voltage as the warp 9/soliton. Would be nice.....


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## Coulomb (Apr 22, 2009)

david85 said:


> Rumor has it curtis is looking at making a 144V controller that might work with the same AC motor but who knows when that will be out.


I do  Well, Tom does, well he has quoted what HPEVS has said, so this is fourth hand information by my count. From this post of Tom's:

" They expect a prototype higher voltage controller from Curtis around the end of this year. It will be nominal 144V with max of 160V or 170V, and 500 or 550A. They are winding a 9" motor for more torque for use with it and expect 150 ft-lb peak torque and about 100 H.P. peak. "

A fair bit late for you, I guess. Still, 75 kW peak and 144 V pack and AC... it could change things a bit.

[ Edit: and I guess you would have wanted it to work on your existing BLDC motor. I don't know if Curtis controllers typically have BLDC support or not. ]
[ Edit 2: it looks like Curtis 1238(R)-XXXX controllers don't handle BLDC motors anyway, so I would not expect the new controller to support them either. ]


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

Honestly, I haven't been too impressed by the current BLDC motor anyway and would gladly switch to a sensorless vector AC if the price and performance were right. Right now I need the car running so the brushed system is going in. You never know, a used soliton jr and warp 9" motor aren't as worthless as a chinese setup so I might try upgrating later on. Maybe.....


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## JRoque (Mar 9, 2010)

Hello David,


david85 said:


> ...so I might try upgrating later on. Maybe.....


Right, why would you? With the DC controller you can up your pack voltage to 340V, if needed. That means you can put a full 600A peak @ 170V for a solid ~100KW output and no voltage sag. Even with your current pack voltage, it'll be awesome.

You already have a pan/cover under your car to protect the open DC motor so that's done. You get brushes that wear but those should last as long as your cells, if not more. No regen but that's not that significant to warrant a swap to AC.

We know you're not into racing your car. That's childish, unsafe and unproductive. But keep the video camera with you just in case your... carpet gets.. hmm.. stuck on the accelerator and you - by accident, of course - lay down 1/2 a pound of rubber on the road. Clock you 0-60 time too, in the interest of science obviously.

JR


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

david85 said:


> ......would gladly switch to a sensorless vector AC .....


That's a bad idea. Keep the feedback loop


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

JRoque said:


> Hello David,
> 
> Right, why would you? With the DC controller you can up your pack voltage to 340V, if needed. That means you can put a full 600A peak @ 170V for a solid ~100KW output and no voltage sag. Even with your current pack voltage, it'll be awesome.
> 
> ...


I think the standard disclaimer for anything that gets posted on utube that involves speedometer numbers and rubber on public roads is to claim that "this is a simulation and for entertainment purposes only". But yes, if I want this controller is quite capable making the car a lot faster than it was (if the battery can handle it).

Although



major said:


> That's a bad idea. Keep the feedback loop


And that would be why I'm in school.....


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## El Rayo (Mar 23, 2009)

I'm very impressed with your work and determination, David. Thanks for sharing!


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## Dave Koller (Nov 15, 2008)

Well David your Saturn will beat mine lol. I am stuck on all that money I need for batteries - I hate to use LA but ....... just "get er done"! Dc will fly for you. Remember my tach setup for the Saturn (case you forgot).. Keep up all the hard work!


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

El Rayo said:


> I'm very impressed with your work and determination, David. Thanks for sharing!


Thank you too. Its nice to have some moral support when things don't always go to plan.



Dave Koller said:


> Well David your Saturn will beat mine lol. I am stuck on all that money I need for batteries - I hate to use LA but ....... just "get er done"! Dc will fly for you. Remember my tach setup for the Saturn (case you forgot).. Keep up all the hard work!


I haven't forgotten your tach drive. That was one of the reasons I went for the soliton and the off the shelf 4 pulse tach drive. The soliton can translate the pulse count to my preference. That means I might be able to just bypass the saturn PCM and get the soliton to shoot a six pulse/rev directly into the cluster coming out of the 4 pulse sensor.

Thats the plan at least.

I've been looking over some of the specs for the soliton in class during break times and am just amazed at how much features and STUFF they managed to cram into this thing.

Unfortunately the part hasn't budged from friday, so I guess I'm waiting for customs to take their dear sweet time now.....sigh......


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## rwaudio (May 22, 2008)

david85 said:


> Thank you too. Its nice to have some moral support when things don't always go to plan.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Hi David,
If you need customs help (specifically NAFTA) I can help. When I became an EVnetics dealer I did the research and both the Soliton1 and Jr. qualify for NAFTA. I have the form setup under my company name but the info could be copied over to your dealer. Randy is a nice guy and I've bought a few things from him I'd be happy to help.


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

Rock Auto came through for me again.

My quill bearing/front transmission seal arrived this morning and since I only had half a day for school related stuff, I can get a head start on putting the car back together this weekend. 

Its an interesting part because it combines the throw out bearing guide, input seal and input bearing into one relatively simple assembly. Its still stooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooopid however, because you have to tear down the transmission for something as minor as a leaking input shaft seal!

Anyway, stay tuned......


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

Transmission is back together and ready to go. I won't bother documenting the transmission teardown and reassembly since thats been done before. However, I haven't found anyone documenting the quill bearing replacement online, at least not for a saturn. I couldn't even find photos of the darn thing! So here goes....

The bearing is pressed out from the inside of the case. Thats why the transmission needs to come apart in order to replace it. The front case half needs to be removed, stripped and placed in a press to force out the bearing. I measured the hole to be 5 thou smaller than the bearing, so this is most certainly an interference fit.

Simply putting it in a press will break the bell housing however, which is why a special spacer is needed to support the case around the bearing while applying force to the bearing itself. I don't know what the special tool saturn recommended looks like, but I was able to find/hack something that worked.

The ideal size of pipe would have been 2" ID with no thicker than a 1/16" wall. I had the next size up but it fit well enough. Here's the real trick. The shoulder in the case around the quill bearing doesn't actually surround the quill once its fully seated, which means even if you had the ideal size of pipe, you won't get perfect support all the way around.

I overcame the problem by cutting a step into the cross section of the pipe to make up the difference. In reality much of the load is being supported by two cast ribs of the case, but it was still enough. Once I verified that the pipe was resting perpendicular to the case, I started pressing and it popped out nice and easy.


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

Pressing the new one in was even easier. I used some anaerobic sealer on it just as some extra insurance, though I suspect its not really needed.

For this job, I had the perfect diameter aluminum pipe. However, I still had to buck both ends off to make it perfectly square. The last thing I need is for that bearing to go into the case crooked.

The inside area of the case is machined to the same plane as the mating surface for the case (the flange area that seals it to the rear half of the case), so a support underneath the bearing isn't much of an issue when installing a new one. I used some 5/8" aluminum stock square tubes to make up for the alignment dowels, since thats easy to find in our shop.

Once the bearing was started, I added a crude force limiter on top between my aluminum pipe and the hydraulic ram. The thing with this assembly is I don't have a perfectly accurate way to tell when the bearing shoulder is fully seated against the case, and since this press is rated at 50 tons, it could literally squish through if I'm not careful. The wood simply added a bit of safety net since it will crunch before the aluminum does. Keep in mind, I didn't use the bock of wood to start the bearing, because I needed both ends of the pipe to be as square (and inline with the quill bearing bore) as possible to keep it true.


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## DawidvC (Feb 14, 2010)

Awesone work, David. Hope your troubles are now all solved.

Dawid


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## Dave Koller (Nov 15, 2008)

Crap, David I hope I never have to do that on my SL2!!!. It would take a year to just get to the transmission!!


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

Whew....well after some 'interesting' weeks attening class, and a few hiccups with the car, I finally have some more updates.

The motor coupling is the bain of my existance - plain and simple. We tried modifying the one that came off the spined shaft of the BLDC motor, but it didn't work. Tried fixing a wobble and ended up ruining the part.

Ordered a new keyed sleeve and looked up the same machinist that helped the last time to see if he could make me a new flange and weld it on. After spending several minutes explaining what I want done, he finally (politely) says its not the best way to do it.

Long story short, he can make one from scratch out of one piece. Which means not having to weld anything together or deal with the warping that always comes with that. I should have asked before ordering the custom sleeve if he could have made everything from scratch, but I'm just happy to have such an excellent piece in the end. Everything is snug fit and runs perfectly true. He also corrected a few factory defects on the flywheel (had a wobble in both directions).

I've run the clutch assembly on the motor using a 200 amp car start charger and everything runs very smooth.

On to the photos....
Three views of the new single peice hub/flange.


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

The guy advised me to use some never seez on the shaft before assembly, so I did. It took some effort to push it on, but not enough to require a hammer. I used loctite on the set screw and torqued the flywheel bolts to 60 ft/lbs.


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

We used some counter bored carrage bolts to help hold the adapter plate and spacer stack assembly together as tight as possible. The smaller phillips screws are only threaded into aluminum without much torque on them, so the the 3/8" bolts are some cheap insurance.

Note that the top plate is wider diameter than the rest to accomodate the motor. That spacer had to be made from scratch more recently specifically for the new motor.

The motor attaching bolts are grade 8 thread in studs which help with assembly, but also spares the aluminum end housing of the motor from ever being worn out over time.


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

Warp LLC made things really easy for me when it came to mounting a bracket for the CV shaft support bearing. There are three threaded holes that go through the outer case of the motor at 90 degree intervals.

Using two of them, I was able to make a simple, but strong bracket to hold the half shaft bearing support in place. (*Caution: make sure the bolts DO NOT bottom out and hit the stator laminations! *Warp LLC seems to think its a big deal if that happens....)

Because of the close clearance between the back of the bracket and the motor case, a simple nut and bolt arrangement wouldn't have worked. So I made some custom studs that were capped with washers welded on for a low profile head. Then I threaded then through from behind and used locktite to keep them from spinning. This allows the stems to hold from the head, and the thickness of the 3/8" aluminum (which was machine tapped) and also means I don't have to deal with having a counter wrench on it if ever I have to take things apart again.

Incidentally, the jumper wire is also well protected behind the bracket.


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

This is as far as I got today. By 7:00 pm, I was getting hungry, slowing down and libel to start making mistakes so I called it a day.

Everything is sitting nicely in the car, and I only have two cells remaining to complete the battery pack. The soliton Jr motor controller is going to have lots of leg room compared to the other controller. It will be nice to be able to check the transmission fluid level without having to break out a snake camera to find the dipstick.

The new controller isn't secured yet, but I put it there to figure for wire lengths to the motor. We reused each of the three motor lines from the BLDC setup (the third being the short jumper behind the axle shaft).

First exam is this week and I'm not sure what sort of free time I'll have, but I hope to at least finish the refit next weekend unless our instuctor has some surprise in store.....

I still have some homework to do on how to properly configure the controller for all the features I'm hoping to take advantage of. Fuel gauge, tachometer feed, brake pedal, wire in my hall effect pedal - if it works, ignition switch, and so on....

But in terms of the major mechanical work, the car is just about done.


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## joshg678 (Jan 25, 2009)

Wow, that looks awesome!!

Hope you get to go for a test drive soon, hope its a smooth ride!


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

Thanks, the soliton really looks amaizing in person and has a long list of built in goodies. I hope its as good as I hear.

I didn't have any homework and when I got home today, I found my dad had already installed the controller perminantly. I spent a few hours in the evening reconnecting the battery and wiring up the new controller. The battery, motor, tach, pedal, and 12V power are all wired but the controler still needs to be configured. The hall effect sensor still has to be programmed in and I want to limit the current to roughly 200 amps to start off. Thats roughly where the old setup was (controller is rated at 500 but I want to take it easy). One or two more evenings like this might put the car back on the road.

First exam is on wedsday though....so I might not have much time tomorrow after review and some other catch up. Class schedule has been a bit ...."off" lately. (have to be polite because my instructor may be watching)


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

I've been driving the car to class for the last two days and so far, it has been reliable. The insurance was set to expire next month, but in light of this, I've insured it for another year.

The motor coupling is nice and smooth, and the motor sounds like something out of a sci-fi movie anywhere above ~3500 RPM. Cruising noise is much lower since the controller is so quiet. Suddenly I've realized how noisy the tires are.

Jeff over at EVnetics has been helping me set things up Via Email. Turns out my HP laptop doesn't want to talk to the controller, so I'm borrowing a mac in the mean time.

Setting the hall effect pedal was stupidly easy, and the warp tachometer drive seems to work with very well with the controller. The motor speed limiter works and I have it set to 5000 RPM.

The car has already broken the last speed record last night and I had to back off. Controller runs cold and the motor is barely luke warm to the touch. I am not using the liquid cooling option on the controller at the moment.

The current limit is set to 300 amps peak at the moment, and I plan to max it out to 500 eventually. Right now its already much better than before. I can't get over how smooth and quiet the motor and controller combo are.

The most pressing matter weighing on me right now, is getting a heater installed........


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## JRoque (Mar 9, 2010)

Excellent, David! That is great news and surprising to hear the DC system is actually quieter than the BLDC - I always thought the brushes would make it much louder. How's the starting torque compare? Oh bother... it looks like you're going to have to crank up the amps for that... 

But, I won't believe you. Shoot a video of a run and posting it here 

JR


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## joshg678 (Jan 25, 2009)

You will definitely need some heat in that car. I know those saturns are very leaky when it comes to air too, so some insulation in the doors might help keep you warmer too.


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## Dave Koller (Nov 15, 2008)

Yep, time for another "Midnight" video! Great job David!!!


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

I'm not sure if it was the torque ripple, a noisy bearing or that it wasn't balanced properly, but the BLDC was fairly noisy for an electric motor. Add to that the coupling that always seemed a bit too slack and it did make some noise. Still not as much as an ICE but enough that it was noticeable at certain RPMs. The extra work I had done on the flywheel no doubt helped too. The switching noises for the BLDC controller were also much louder than the soliton. The soliton is whisper quiet on the performance mode. I haven't tried the silent mode on the road yet.

We've had a mild fall so being a black car, it wasn't too bad without heat but that will change once winter really hits.

Oh, and it looks like the new quill bearing is holding because its not leaking anymore. I've been parking it in the shop and its not spilling a drop. I'll run it like this and maybe get a couple long range drives on plain ATF before switching over to synthetic. Since its only 2.5L of fluid, I its a small expense, but I'd like to see what sort of difference there is (if any) in switching over.


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

Heater install photos. This is a simple element heater from Canadian Electric Vehicles Ltd. Originally I wanted to get a fluid heater but if this works it will be much simpler and lighter. I made an aluminum "adapter plate" to mount the element where the original heater core was. It closes off the ducting and forces all the air through the heater. One at the bottom and two at the top corners hold it in place.

I've been putting this off for a while because I kept hearing horror stories about how bad it can be to get to a heater core when it comes to passenger cars like this. Turns out it only takes about half an hour to remove it in this case, so it wasn't a big deal. Only thing to watch out for is how many things on this car snap together. Really, the folks at saturn must have had something against screws.

Wires are sent through the firewall to where I'll put the contactor somewhere (maybe in a battery box where its protected). It was a sunday and I didn't have enough wiring to finish the job, but the heater install itself was most of the work. The rest can be done anytime.


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

Time to plug in some of the Soliton's many extra goodies.

There are other features, but for now, I wanted to plug in the "Check engine light" and the tachometer.

The Check engine feature of the controller is a handy little output that lets you power a light in the cluster display if an error is detected, but also when the controller is in precharge mode. So like any other car, you get in, switch it on, and the "Check engine light" comes on for a few seconds. When it goes out - the car's good to go.

The first thing to do was track down the wires I needed. To do that, I started pulling stuff apart until the interior looked like this.

Eventually, I found the wires I needed and plucked them out of the quick connect. Once a continuity test verified the identity, I plugged it into the controller and it worked perfectly. The blue connector goes into the PCM in the dash, and the tan colored connector plugs into the back of the cluster assembly.

The photos you see for wiring are relating to the tachometer since the procedure was the same for both plug-ins. The tach is working too, but since I plugged directly into the tach, the saturn tach demands a 6 PPR signal, and the soliton only can put out 4 PPR.....well, it reads low. 

I buttoned everything up again and will use it as is until I can figure out how to send a signal through the PCM instead. I still have to look into that some more to see if that's even possible (and if a 4 pulse signal will satisfy it).

Any ideas, Dave?


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## GizmoEV (Nov 28, 2009)

The easy solution might be to see if Evnetics will add a 6PPR signal to the Soliton code.


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## JRoque (Mar 9, 2010)

Nice going there David! The Sol1 is a great product, no doubt.

For future wire tracing, something like this might help: http://www.summitsource.com/product_info.php?ref=1&products_id=9147 I've heard it called a "turkey tone" by some PBX/phone people. It basically sends a tone down the wire that you trace with the receiver. It's pretty handy for other cabling work as well.

JR


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## Dave Koller (Nov 15, 2008)

david85 said:


> The photos you see for wiring are relating to the tachometer since the procedure was the same for both plug-ins. The tach is working too, but since I plugged directly into the tach, the saturn tach demands a 6 PPR signal, and the soliton only can put out 4 PPR.....well, it reads low.
> 
> I buttoned everything up again and will use it as is until I can figure out how to send a signal through the PCM instead. I still have to look into that some more to see if that's even possible (and if a 4 pulse signal will satisfy it).
> 
> Any ideas, Dave?


Use a 12 PPR - divide by 2 for tach - and what does the Solitron take as input again? - Four? (divide by three) - or does it take 2 (divide by six).....
I have to be somewhere so just a quick thought here... Do not have time to look at what Solitron takes as input. If it is only two then with a six lobe divide by three.. (digital flip flops easy circuit)....


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## Qer (May 7, 2008)

GizmoEV said:


> The easy solution might be to see if Evnetics will add a 6PPR signal to the Soliton code.


I plan to look at it (+ some other minor annoyances that has popped up) and unless there's some problems with the increased frequency (the Soliton will have to generate 50% higher frequency for the same RPM compared to 4 ppt after all) I'll add it.

I don't think there will be a problem, but I refuse to promise anything until I've tried.


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

Qer said:


> I plan to look at it (+ some other minor annoyances that has popped up) and unless there's some problems with the increased frequency (the Soliton will have to generate 50% higher frequency for the same RPM compared to 4 ppt after all) I'll add it.
> 
> I don't think there will be a problem, but I refuse to promise anything until I've tried.


Cool, sounds good. As it is, the car looks proper anyway. Its just an annoyance that it reads low but at least the tach needle moves now


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## joshg678 (Jan 25, 2009)

Awesome progress!
Are you staying nice and warm now?

Does it allow you to adjust how warm it is, or does it just cycle on and off?


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## ssagurit4 (Oct 3, 2011)

Hi sir david!

I am new here in this forum,

I see all your project are great and awesome especially this one "Saturn SL1 conversion project".

I have a question if don't mind, are you planning to paint all the interior and extrior in your project? I know that this is not the right thread to ask this but I want to know what is the best color combination in your project?


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

joshg678 said:


> Awesome progress!
> Are you staying nice and warm now?
> 
> Does it allow you to adjust how warm it is, or does it just cycle on and off?


Thanks,

The heater isn't working yet. I tested it this evening but none of the safe controls are in place to operate it. The contactor relay still has to be wired in, and in such a way that it only sends power to the heater element when the blower fan is running. I also need to get a proper fuse, but I haven't been able to track that down yet.

When its done, it should draw about 2-3 kw of power based on what I saw this evening. I ran it constant for one minute and I don't think a cycling feature will be needed. So basically, I'll have it switched on or off.

It isn't exactly cold right now though. This part of the world generally has a lazy pace into winter and I'm still comfortable in a sweater when driving. Going over 80 MPH on the highway (which you should NEVER EVER DO in real life) does get the car a bit chilly though. Especially at night (don't do that either).

Only problem with this car now, is I'm tempted to race people away from stoplights and my miles/kwh is going down the toilet. Although I still can't wipe this smirk off my face....


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## MN Driver (Sep 29, 2009)

david85 said:


> Only problem with this car now, is I'm tempted to race people away from stoplights and my miles/kwh is going down the toilet. Although I still can't wipe this smirk off my face....


Something about a series DC motor with a powerful controller capable of throwing out gobs of amperage does that to people!


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## tomofreno (Mar 3, 2009)

> I also need to get a proper fuse, but I haven't been able to track that down yet.


 I recently installed two of these:
http://www.discountfuse.com/ATQ30_p/atq30.htm
I haven't used them enough to say they will work for certain, but the spec (here: http://www.discountfuse.com/v/vspfiles/downloadables/Ferraz/PDF/atq.pdf) indicates they should - good for over 2 minutes at 50A. They are time delay, for use with solenoids and other such loads that have a high initial surge current. I pull about 26 to 27A with two 1500W ceramic heater elements in parallel with a nominal 115V pack. It puts out about 3100W. I was blowing standard 30A 1/4 x 1 1/4" slow blow fuses from Radio Shack. They would work for a week to three or so then blow. The Ferraz midgets are 0.4" diameter.


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

tomofreno said:


> I recently installed two of these:
> http://www.discountfuse.com/ATQ30_p/atq30.htm
> I haven't used them enough to say they will work for certain, but the spec (here: http://www.discountfuse.com/v/vspfiles/downloadables/Ferraz/PDF/atq.pdf) indicates they should - good for over 2 minutes at 50A. They are time delay, for use with solenoids and other such loads that have a high initial surge current. I pull about 26 to 27A with two 1500W ceramic heater elements in parallel with a nominal 115V pack. It puts out about 3100W. I was blowing standard 30A 1/4 x 1 1/4" slow blow fuses from Radio Shack. They would work for a week to three or so then blow. The Ferraz midgets are 0.4" diameter.


Thanks Tom. When I asked Randy at CanEV what type of fuse to use, he recomended something similar (TRM20 http://www.discountfuse.com/TRM20_p/trm20.htm)

I haven't used anything like this before however, so it will take some reading and then I have to figure out where to get it - and the fuse holder. A local supplier might have them but I generally don't have much time after class to get there before they close.


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## tomofreno (Mar 3, 2009)

When I asked Randy at CanEV what type of fuse to use, he recomended something similar (TRM20 http://www.discountfuse.com/TRM20_p/trm20.htm) Same specs except for 250V rating and cheaper! I ordered from discount fuse.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Any concern with these being only AC rated fuses? Or is the lower DC voltage enough of a buffer?


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## tomofreno (Mar 3, 2009)

> Any concern with these being only AC rated fuses? Or is the lower DC voltage enough of a buffer?


 I'm sorry. I was going to purchase the time delay ones, but I purchased the atm30/50 instead (I looked at the spares I bought to check) since they are rated at 600V AC and DC. They are fast acting, but from the curves looked like they could take 50A for quite a while before blowing:
http://www.discountfuse.com/v/vspfiles/downloadables/Ferraz/PDF/atm.pdf
You might find lower amperage versions of these at solar pv dealers since they are rated for 600VDC, but they may not carry the 30A version.


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

I'll see if I can pick up the parts I need after class today and we'll find out soon enough if these can work. Although if Randy has been doing this for ~20 years, I don't expect any issues.


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

Got the fuse/fuse holder and the setup seems to work fine. I have the contactor for the heater element wired up and ran the heater for a good ten minutes in the shop this evening. Going by the EV display, its drawing about 14-16 amps off the traction pack (thats with the blower going and the ignition on). 

I'm quite happy with the fuse holder I was able to find as well. Its O ring sealed, and made of plastic so corrosion will never be an issue. It can also double as a quick disconnect to easily unplug the system.
http://www.ferrazshawmutsales.com/pdfs/FEBFECFEXFEY.pdf

I still need to wire in the heater control contactor in such a way that it only gets power when the blend door is all the way to the hot side and the blower fan is running.

Its a bit of a wiring mess under the hood right now, but it looks like I will have heat fairly soon.


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## El Rayo (Mar 23, 2009)

david85 said:


> Originally I wanted to get a fluid heater but if this works it will be much simpler and lighter.


You will also be happy that the air heater delivers warm air instantly. Good choice, David!

The people who engineered the 2000 model Think City EV also opted for a 3 kW electric air heater. Plenty of heat for the smaller passenger compartment in the Th!nk City, it's good for minus 20 degrees Centigrade.


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

I've been driving the car 5 days a week since getting the soliton installed and its still doing fine. The heater is nothing compared to an OEM liquid fed heater core but at 2kw of power, draw already enough to shorten the maximum range by a few miles (in theory). So I could get a more powerful heater, but that would kill range even more. So long as I don't go numb driving the car in the winter, I don't mind having to wear a coat and wool socks.

In terms of defogging, it seems to work well and its enough to clear a thick layer of frost in the morning . I tried that recently where I switched the heater on for about 20 minutes before leaving in the morning (I wonder if that qualifies as "idling" - which is illegal in BC ). The roof and hood still had frost, but all the glass was clear and I was good to go without having to scrape anything.

I did attempt a range test on thanksgiving weekend but since I didn't take precautions to verify battery balance (the car had sat for a while with the EV display slowly drawing down the charge on 4 cells), I was forced to pull over and call for a tow at roughly 85 miles even though there should have been 40% charge remaining. I think thats been corrected but until a test proves otherwise, I'll say the car has a top speed of 80MPH and range of 80 miles (@ 50-55 mph).

I've also started a bit of clean up under the hood to make it look pretty. Some class mates and 2nd year students have already seen the car so I figure it should be presentable. There is still the other half of the forward battery box lid to install, but its getting to the point where it looks more finished.


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## joshg678 (Jan 25, 2009)

Sweet stuff. Keep the heat on until you get most of the moisture out of the cabin and then turn it to recirculate, that should help keep you toasty. Heating already heated air helps. 

I remember on my saturn that had a stuck open T stat, when it was cold out i was freezing even with the recirculate.


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

I don't think mine has a recurculate function....isn't that only with factory A/C??

I agree it would help though.


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## dimitri (May 16, 2008)

david85 said:


> the car had sat for a while with the EV display slowly drawing down the charge on 4 cells


David, I can offer you an upgrade to the 2nd version of EV Display, which is powered by 12V aux battery and senses pack voltage without imbalancing the pack. It also looks much better with anodized aluminum overlay, rather than the vinyl one , which tends to peel off inside the unit.

Please contact me directly at [email protected]


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## dladd (Jun 1, 2011)

did you ever get the tachometer reading correctly? I'm just starting to think about getting my stock tach working, doing some research to see how others have done it.


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## Arlo (Dec 27, 2009)

Finaly found your build I will have to come back and read this later!


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## timpootle (Jun 3, 2011)

david85 said:


> The heater isn't working yet. I tested it this evening but none of the safe controls are in place to operate it. The contactor relay still has to be wired in, and in such a way that it only sends power to the heater element when the blower fan is running. I also need to get a proper fuse, but I haven't been able to track that down yet.


What sort of contactor are you using for your heater? That's my next job now the Berlingo is charging.


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

timpootle said:


> What sort of contactor are you using for your heater? That's my next job now the Berlingo is charging.


Albright SW60B-7. It came with the heater from CanEV, but its very common and should be available from suppliers in the UK.


http://www.thetoolboxshop.com/sw60b...-solenoid-contactor-continuous-80a-7302-p.asp

Keep in mind mine was only drawing about 15 amps at pack voltage (144~160VDC) so the peak voltage rating is relative. Going by the example in the above link, the rating is 3840 watts. Mine was only drawing about 2500 max if I remember right.


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## Beemer (Jun 2, 2011)

timpootle said:


> What sort of contactor are you using for your heater? That's my next job now the Berlingo is charging.


Tim, can't you simply use a mains switch?


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## Coulomb (Apr 22, 2009)

Beemer said:


> Tim, can't you simply use a mains switch?


I know that this is an old post, but it's resurrected, and I just want to comment: beware of using "mains switches" in cars. They are not rated for breaking DC. You may get away with breaking an amp or less, but a heater's current requires a DC contactor.

Mains switches get away with being small and cheap because the current crosses zero 120 or so times per second. Not so with DC, and AC-only rated switches could arc and become a fire hazard.


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