# headway 38140S(3.2V12Ah) lifepo4 cell available now



## lorraine (Feb 11, 2009)

we have newest models :
38140S and 40160S(3.2V16Ah) cylindrical cells.
compare with 38120,higher capacity!


38140S


Nominal Capacity: 12AH


Nominal Voltagge: 3.2V


Charging Voltage:3.65V


Cut off Discharge Voltage:2.0V


Charging Method:CC/CV


Max Charg Current(continuous):60A


Max Discharg Current(continuous):120A


Cycle life: 2000 clcles 1C 80% DOD


Energy Density: 100Wh/KG


Power Density: 932W/KG


Initial internal impedance: <6mΩ


Dimension: 


Diameter: 38mm Height: 120mm


Weight: 386g​


40160S


Nominal Capacity: 16AH


Nominal Voltagge: 3.2V


Charging Voltage:3.65V


Cut off Discharge Voltage:2.0V


Charging Method:CC/CV


Max Charg Current(continuous):80A


Max Discharg Current(continuous):160A


Cycle life: 2000 clcles 1C 80% DOD


Energy Density: 102Wh/KG


Power Density: 960W/KG


Initial internal impedance: <5mΩ


Dimension: 


Diameter: 40mm Height: 160mm


Weight: 500g
If you want,can contact me for prices!

email : [email protected]
MSN: [email protected]​


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## MJ Monterey (Aug 20, 2009)

What is the price of 1000 cells (both sizes) delivered to the port of Oakland California USA? I will pick up from customs when cleared.

What is your Warranty?


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## lorraine (Feb 11, 2009)

Hello MJ,
I have sent you a message with prices,please check!

Regards,
Lorraine


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## Bentzon (Sep 5, 2009)

Would you mind to post those prices here on the forum?


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## MJ Monterey (Aug 20, 2009)

Lorraine,

Thank you for the 1000 lot quote.

A few more questions that others on this forum may find of importance.

Do these cells have threaded ends or tab ends?

Do you have drawings available? I will need to design enclosure pieces based on drawings before purchase.

Will you openly post the 1000 lot pricing with this community?

Thank You for your time
MJ


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## EVComponents (Apr 20, 2009)

We will be providing the same cells at EV Components.
The 38140 cells are in our next container.

I am not sure what Lorraine's pricing is since they won't publish it publicly. 
Not sure why this is so common among these companies in China.
But ours will be around $19 per cell. In higher volume of 500 or more we can do it at $18 per cell.

We don't have them in the warehouse yet. Likely in late January.
Same specs as provided by Lorraine.

We are a USA based supplier.
This means that we will be able to provide the warranty and handle those issues with the factory if there are any bad cells.
The manufacturer responds to our company because they want more high volume purchases.
They often ignore one time customers after the sale.


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## Jordysport (Mar 22, 2009)

EVComponents said:


> We will be providing the same cells at EV Components.
> The 38140 cells are in our next container.
> 
> I am not sure what Lorraine's pricing is since they won't publish it publicly.
> ...


i think the going rate for the 38120s cells are about $13.80 

 if you catch my drift,


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## EVComponents (Apr 20, 2009)

Jordysport said:


> i think the going rate for the 38120s cells are about $13.80
> 
> if you catch my drift,


These are 38140 cells.


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## frodus (Apr 12, 2008)

where can you get 38120S cells for $13.80? That might be before shipping/handling/customs....


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## BradQuick (May 10, 2008)

Has anyone had any experience with these cells? I tried their paper wrapped cells in my electric motorcycle and was quite disappointed with my results.

I didn't have a cell level lvc, but I did use a balancing charger on every charge and kept the depth of discharge low. Unfortunately, I kept having cell failures and had to switch to heavy AGMs.

I'm just wondering what other people's experience has been with Headway.

- Brad


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## lorraine (Feb 11, 2009)

EVComponents said:


> We will be providing the same cells at EV Components.
> The 38140 cells are in our next container.
> 
> I am not sure what Lorraine's pricing is since they won't publish it publicly.
> ...


Dear James Morrison,
Don't worry.Michelle Lu is my workmate.I'm also from Xinghai Energy.You ever contacted me for prices of 38120 cells at May this year. I just let our members of this forums know our newest products.


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## frodus (Apr 12, 2008)

BradQuick said:


> Has anyone had any experience with these cells? I tried their paper wrapped cells in my electric motorcycle and was quite disappointed with my results.
> 
> I didn't have a cell level lvc, but I did use a balancing charger on every charge and kept the depth of discharge low. Unfortunately, I kept having cell failures and had to switch to heavy AGMs.
> 
> ...


paper wrapped? How long ago was that? All of the new cells are heatshrinked plastic.


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## lorraine (Feb 11, 2009)

Dear Friends:
headway 38140S and 40160S cell are with screw type! Their drawing are published here. please check.

Friends in USA who wants to buy our new products can contact EV COMPONETS directly. If Someone from other countries that far away from USA, and if you'd like to contact me, is also very welcomed!

email: [email protected]
MSN: [email protected]


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## pgt400 (Jul 12, 2008)

When will EV have the 16ah cells? What would be the cost for 72? I will be buying <lifepo4> cells in March. Going to 16ah cells for me is perfered over more 10ah units. But I won't buy until someone from EV says they are solid.


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## crashnfool (Sep 26, 2009)

pgt400 said:


> When will EV have the 16ah cells? What would be the cost for 72? I will be buying <lifepo4> cells in March. Going to 16ah cells for me is perfered over more 10ah units. But I won't buy until someone from EV says they are solid.


I would discuss that with Frodus He's our headway guy!


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## lorraine (Feb 11, 2009)

Maybe these two drawings are more clear than previous ones.

email: [email protected]
MSN: [email protected][/quote]


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## karlos (Jun 30, 2008)

I don't want to get off the topic of Headway batteries but if I was to use them, how do you set up a BMS system for such cells and who supplies such a system?


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## frodus (Apr 12, 2008)

Not sure what Headway offers, most BMS are for smaller projects like bikes.....

We offer the elithion system, very modular and scaleable. 

http://liionbms.com/php/large_cyl_cell_boards.php

I actually have some of these boards and will take pictures soon of an assembled pack.... I'm using this system on my personal conversion as well. Looks to be a very well thought out and complete system.


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## karlos (Jun 30, 2008)

Thanks Frodus, that answers my questions about whether or not cylindrical batteries can be paralleled using one unit. Seems headway batteries or similar potentially have a good future because it's easy to fit them in odd places although like others and they have a relative high discharge rate but before such a big investment I would be keen to know the experience of anyone using these cells.


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## pgt400 (Jul 12, 2008)

lorraine said:


> Maybe these two drawings are more clear than previous ones.
> 
> email: [email protected]
> MSN: [email protected]


[/quote]

Jon, Graphs of discharge / charge curves would be MUCH more interesting. Surley they exsist???


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## lorraine (Feb 11, 2009)

Jon, Graphs of discharge / charge curves would be MUCH more interesting. Surley they exsist???[/quote]


Dear my friends,you are right. MJ said he want to design enclosure pieces based on drawings ,so I offered the drawing with detailed size first. ok,please check here for the discharge / charge curves. and the real new products photos!


Email: [email protected]
MSN: [email protected]


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## frodus (Apr 12, 2008)

those are "charge" curves for the 12Ah and 16Ah, we're interested in the "discharge" curves.

Do you have curves of these cells at their claimed 10C rate? 5C?


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## lorraine (Feb 11, 2009)

Dear Travis,

You should change your idea now

But you are right. publish higher rate discharging curve will be of some great help for friends to get more feeling of our new products.

As our first stock of 40160S cells iare sold out in a short time, so we are waiting for next producing plan.

Here are 38140A 12Ah 3C,5C,10C discharging curves.Please check.


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## crashnfool (Sep 26, 2009)

Thats nice Lorraine but could you also show us the dicharge curves for the 16ah??

We really would like to see those....


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## MN Driver (Sep 29, 2009)

I would also like to see the charts for the 16Ah cell, especially if it can put out 160 amps with a similar or better discharge voltage profile than the 38120P cells, this way I will have the performance that I was looking for the in 8Ah cells but I would only need half as many cells and won't need to connect them in parallel.

Is it possible that the ones that sold out might possibly be improved on in the next production? If so, please provide discharge charts when you have them.


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## lorraine (Feb 11, 2009)

What facility on which are you going to use our headway lithium? 38120P is very suited for start-up battery,as it can discharge larger current in a short time, and the power density of 38120P(1500w/Kg) is much higher than 40160S(960w/Kg). 

Yes,Headway will continue to perfect its products,R&D is keeping on!
I'll issue it when it's available..

Best Regards,
Lorraine from Xinghai Energy--headway lithium 

email: [email protected]
MSN: [email protected]


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## MN Driver (Sep 29, 2009)

It is good to hear that R&D is keeping on.

The reason why I am looking at 38120P cells is they provide less voltage drop with a higher current load than the standard 38120 cell. I'm specifically looking at a 100 amp load for 10 seconds as a start-up load followed by a load of about 25 amps continuously. I'm going to be using either 52 40160S cells in series or possibly 104 38120P cells and putting them in parallel to get a similar capacity.

The voltage will be too high with more than 52 cells in series when they are taken off charge and I would like voltage sag to be as close to 140 volts or higher with a 10 second 100 amp draw as possible, the higher the voltage the better. This is why I was looking at 38120P cells with 2 in parallel in a 52 series arrangement and why I am interested in the voltage discharge graphs for the 40120S cells when they become available because if the performance is close enough to what I am looking for I would prefer to not have cells in parallel if possible.


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## pm_dawn (Sep 14, 2009)

lorraine:

Could you also dig up the discharger curves @ 1C and for different temperatures. Atleast down to -25degC.

Are there any discharge restrictions at low temps. Will the cells cope with high discharges (5C-10C) at -25degC?

Best Regards
/Per Eklund


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## CroDriver (Jan 8, 2009)

MN Driver said:


> It is good to hear that R&D is keeping on.
> 
> The reason why I am looking at 38120P cells is they provide less voltage drop with a higher current load than the standard 38120 cell. I'm specifically looking at a 100 amp load for 10 seconds as a start-up load followed by a load of about 25 amps continuously. I'm going to be using either 52 40160S cells in series or possibly 104 38120P cells and putting them in parallel to get a similar capacity.
> 
> The voltage will be too high with more than 52 cells in series when they are taken off charge and I would like voltage sag to be as close to 140 volts or higher with a 10 second 100 amp draw as possible, the higher the voltage the better. This is why I was looking at 38120P cells with 2 in parallel in a 52 series arrangement and why I am interested in the voltage discharge graphs for the 40120S cells when they become available because if the performance is close enough to what I am looking for I would prefer to not have cells in parallel if possible.


Maybe it would be better to have some cells in parallel - they are more stable if paralleled - less worries about balancing


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## MN Driver (Sep 29, 2009)

Crodriver, yeah that is what I was thinking that I'd be resorting to in the end. The thing is we have a form factor that normally holds 120 D cells which are slightly smaller than 38mm and the length of the 120mm cells are slightly more than 2 D cells in length with the screw ends and bus bars. The original cells are NiMh, we are basically pulling the NiMh battery management out and replacing it with one that will keep the Lithiums in check. The NiMh's are insane though as they are 6.5Ah cells that have very little sag and they can be discharged 4Ah and are at 140volts under full load which is the point where it normally cuts off and doesn't discharge until it charges a little.

This same project was done with 40Ah prismatic cells but we really wanted to just use the space where the 6.5Ah cells are and put in 52 of the 38120P 8Ah lithiums which would slightly increase capacity but the voltage sag is the biggest issue and cells this size that are more powerful than the Headways skyrocket in price and aren't worth it versus just going 40Ah prismatics, but we really want to be able to fit these in the standard form factor case, we know it will need modification but the case has a fan and could also double up as a space where the cells could be heated so they could perform better and charge in the extreme cold temperatures of real life near the Canadian border of North America on both the US and Canada sides where things occasionally get as cold as -40(f or c, same on both scales at this temp).


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## Jozzer (Mar 29, 2009)

Hmm, I'm expecting delivery of a couple of new 16AH Headway cells tomorrow, I'll post up some discharge curves when I get them.
Can test up to 100A I believe, though may be able to wangle a 10C test out of the machine!

Steve


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## CroDriver (Jan 8, 2009)

Jozzer said:


> Hmm, I'm expecting delivery of a couple of new 16AH Headway cells tomorrow, I'll post up some discharge curves when I get them.
> Can test up to 100A I believe, though may be able to wangle a 10C test out of the machine!
> 
> Steve


Could you also measure them and take a few photos? 

Thanks a lot


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## MN Driver (Sep 29, 2009)

Jozzer said:


> Hmm, I'm expecting delivery of a couple of new 16AH Headway cells tomorrow, I'll post up some discharge curves when I get them.
> Can test up to 100A I believe, though may be able to wangle a 10C test out of the machine!
> 
> Steve


Cool, I didn't know any of us would have the cells it sounded like they were gone before anyone in this site had any real chance at them. Whatever information you can provide would be great for all of us paying attention to Headway developments! Thanks


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## Jozzer (Mar 29, 2009)

Hi all,

Well, 2 cells arrived today, unfortionatly 1 was DOA, the other seems to have a poor internal connection rresulting in fluctuating voltage and a very hot cell!

First test at 1C show's much variation (looked like someone was tampering with the cell connections, but I verified that theres nothing wrong with the tester, must be internal to the cell.) The cell only managed 10AH at 1C, 
When I recharged it and tried 80A however, the cell managed a good 15AH. It heated badly especially at one end (showing where the poor internal connection was), negative end of the cell reached 75 degrees C, the pos only 55C.

Soo, looks like there major quality control issues to overcome, but could perhaps be of equivilant discharge rate as the 10AH when fixed up properly! I'll report back to Victoria and hope for better samples in the future!

Photo shows a LifeBatt 15Ah cell alongside for comparison.


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## icec0o1 (Sep 3, 2009)

I think you should probably cycle the brand new cells a few times and then do a test


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## Jozzer (Mar 29, 2009)

Generally I'd agree (probably the reason for the 16a test returning low capacity), but in this case I think I can safetly say this cell is FUBAR and will die before too many more cycles. I've tested hundreds of 10AH Headways, and thousands of other LifePo4 cells and never seen one behave like this.


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## pgt400 (Jul 12, 2008)

Interesting.....I've heard some say that Lifebatt Red 15AH cells ARE Headway cells?? What can you say about this Steve?


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## Jozzer (Mar 29, 2009)

If they are, they definitly are subject to more stringent quality control.
I've used LifeBatt's 15AH in a customers pack and they were completely consistant, the graphs of all 60 cells overlayed almost perfectly through the first 80% of discharge. I can upload a sample of a 15AH LifeBatt tomorrow from work, it looked good for 100A continuous (finishing temp at 50C), I couldn't test higher than that at the time, though could now possibly manage a 200A test when things quiet down a bit at work. 

Stronger than the old 10AH PSI cell in my opinion, and not much longer than it when you take those studs into account. They returned 14.4AH average through the first cycles, I'm told that they can exceed 15AH after the first 20 cycles or so, but haven't had time to verify that.


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## MN Driver (Sep 29, 2009)

pgt400 said:


> Interesting.....I've heard some say that Lifebatt Red 15AH cells ARE Headway cells?? What can you say about this Steve?


They do appear very similar. I don't think they are apples to apples if they are because when people test have tested them they don't seem to have the same discharge curves. They do seem to be very powerful there are a few people on endless-sphere who put 4 of the 38120 in series and used them as a startup pack instead of lead-acid in their high compression race car so they've got power.

Either way, if they are made by the same company, we will never hear about it, companies are in non-disclosure, there are trade secrets, etc. Either way, if its the same manufacturer, it doesn't seem to be the same end-product.

The Headway's seem to do the job and are a more affordable option for me in comparison to other cylindrical LiFePO4 options.


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## BMI/LiFeTech (Aug 12, 2009)

MN Driver said:


> They do appear very similar. I don't think they are apples to apples if they are because when people test have tested them they don't seem to have the same discharge curves. They do seem to be very powerful there are a few people on endless-sphere who put 4 of the 38120 in series and used them as a startup pack instead of lead-acid in their high compression race car so they've got power.
> 
> Either way, if they are made by the same company, we will never hear about it, companies are in non-disclosure, there are trade secrets, etc. Either way, if its the same manufacturer, it doesn't seem to be the same end-product.
> 
> The Headway's seem to do the job and are a more affordable option for me in comparison to other cylindrical LiFePO4 options.


I would love to be able to explain all about these cells and the differences between them but unfortunately at the moment my hands are tied and I am only allowed to say so much. Anyway what I can say is this. Headway and LiFeTech (or relabelled as Lifebatt) are definitely not the same cell. They use different types/quality of LiFePO4 powder in their manufacture. The LiFePO4 used in the Headway cells is manufactured in China where as the LiFePO4 used in the manufacture of the higher quality LiFeTech/Lifebatt cells is DEFINITELY NOT made in China. 
LiFeTech use a much higher quality A-Grade powder in both our high energy cells and high power cells. The red 15Ah energy cell pictured next to the blue Headway cell is an older X2E cell since new production is of a "platinum" color cell. This cell is rated at 10C continuos and 15C peak. 
The gold power cells are rated at 30C continuos and 35C for 10 seconds (from the latest factory data I have just received).

The LiFeTech cells go through stringent quality control and are individually graded so we reject anything which does not test out as being an A-grade cell (I can't say the same for any other similar looking cells). Our factory spent in excess of 3 million dollars on battery and cell testing equipment so we can ensure that every cell lives up to its specification in terms of capacity and discharge performance. Once again I can't say the same for any other cell even though I could elaborate more.
In the end a cell which uses the highest grade of LiFePO4 (much of which is supplied under licence from Phostech and is definitely not made in China) combined with stringent QC testing procedures costs considerably more to manufacture than something made to much lesser standards in terms of quality and consistency.

I throw open a challenge to any of the doubters who continue to think that both cells are the same. Test 100 LiFeTech cells at various rates of discharge and measure the actual capacity. Test each of the cells for internal impedance with an accurate battery impedance test instrument.
Compare the results and CONSISTENCY between all 100 cells.
Now perform the same tests with 100 cells which are not LiFeTech cells but look similar and CLAIM to have similar ratings.
Then compare all the results between the two different cell types and tell me both cells are the same!

Some more cell information is here showing the new "platinum" 15Ah cell which has replaced the red cell- http://lithbattoz.com.au/index.php?page=battery-cells

Some cell specs and data is here-


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## frodus (Apr 12, 2008)

From what we've heard, and can see from the actuall cells we have in our hands, the cells are manufactured by the same company, but yes, the "magic" inside, is definately different..... No one said they were exactly the same cell.... I think they were saying that the cells are manufactured by the same plant, which I have heard from some very credible sources.... and from Headway.

BMI/Lifetech, can you provide proof that these are NOT manufactured in the same plant? (i'm talking the final assembly of the cells, not the stupid phostech, lifebatt, whatever the hell powder).

They look almost identical in their mechanical makeup.


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## BMI/LiFeTech (Aug 12, 2009)

frodus said:


> From what we've heard, and can see from the actuall cells we have in our hands, the cells are manufactured by the same company, but yes, the "magic" inside, is definately different..... No one said they were exactly the same cell.... I think they were saying that the cells are manufactured by the same plant, which I have heard from some very credible sources.... and from Headway.
> 
> BMI/Lifetech, can you provide proof that these are NOT manufactured in the same plant? (i'm talking the final assembly of the cells, not the stupid phostech, lifebatt, whatever the hell powder).
> 
> They look almost identical in their mechanical makeup.


As you put it, it is the "Phostech,lifebatt, whatever the hell powder" which is what provides the "magic" in terms of performance.

As far as quality control/consistency issues are concerned this is where things get difficult (confidentiallity applies) so I won't be making any public comments about the actual manufacturing practices of another company.

I would really like to be open and transparent and explain all and I just hate it being gagged. I am really sorry.


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## lorraine (Feb 11, 2009)

Dear Steve,
Thanks for your time.
When did you ask for these two samples? The first production of 40160S were sold up last week, and only a little few of not so good cells left.
Frankly speaking, we recognize that our new products maybe would have this kind or that kind of problems, we hope our customers to responds the problems to us, and Headway will try best to keep on improving its quality and management.

We must stop discussing Headway and LiFeBatt, choose Headway or choose LiFeBatt,everyone here has his own reason.It's just a personla decision. BUT DON'T say " China plants can't offer high quality" You will regret saying that.


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## BMI/LiFeTech (Aug 12, 2009)

There is not much you can say about a company which sends a customer samples of its new products which don't live up to expectations when the manufacturer is well aware of the problems yet still sends the product to the customer knowing it is defective and has the attitude of "oh well we will wait until the customer finds out about the problems and tells us".

Samples (by their nature) will be scrutinized and thoroughly tested by a prospective buyer before they decide they are happy with them and decide to place a larger order.

LiFeTech will NEVER supply a customer with a defective cell which is not an A-grade cell and has passed all of the QC control/test procedures.

The same can not be said about other battery manufacturers in China.


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## lorraine (Feb 11, 2009)

You misunderstood me ,Armin. No one can say that "our prodcuts wouldn't cause problems during its working time!" 
No perfect,but better! 
Some unforesighted problems can only be handled when it happens.


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## BMI/LiFeTech (Aug 12, 2009)

lorraine said:


> You misunderstood me ,Armin. No one can say that "our prodcuts wouldn't cause problems during its working time!"
> No perfect,but better!
> Some unforesighted problems can only be handled when it happens.


If the sample cells sent to Steve would of been tested properly faults would of been picked up during factory testing.
The problems with the sample cells didn't happen after some months or years of use. Steve determined there were "issues" with the cells after very little testing (going by his reports on this thread).


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## lorraine (Feb 11, 2009)

We will find out. 
The first of 40160S production is only a very small quantity,our target is for testing.We are waiting for other response. And Headway believe 40160S will becoming a swan. Please focus on.


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## Jozzer (Mar 29, 2009)

I met Victoria at a show in Milan a month ago, and she offered to send them when she returned to China.
I have sent her these results and asked that she send a well tested cell for a fair comparison, I understand that these were probably prototype cells and the final product will be more stable.

I am a little surprised that cells sent as samples are not checked more carefully before being sent however, I had asked for 2 cells so I could get a fair impression.
Still, I trust Headway will do their best to make this a winner..

Steve


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## Jozzer (Mar 29, 2009)

As promised for Travis, some 10AH cell discharges, along with some 15AH lifeBatt discharges (Sorry Headway, don't mean to hijack your thread!)
i should point out that these tests were performed at 18 degrees C, usually in the factory the tests are done at 25C or so.


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## pgt400 (Jul 12, 2008)

BMI/LiFeTech said:


> As you put it, it is the "Phostech,lifebatt, whatever the hell powder" which is what provides the "magic" in terms of performance.
> 
> As far as quality control/consistency issues are concerned this is where things get difficult (confidentiallity applies) so I won't be making any public comments about the actual manufacturing practices of another company.
> 
> I would really like to be open and transparent and explain all and I just hate it being gagged. I am really sorry.


Well since both cells are made by Headway in China...you can bet the "magic" if any, will soon mend into the others powder. Once they get their process refined the quality will go up.


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## frodus (Apr 12, 2008)

Jozzer said:


> As promised for Travis, some 10AH cell discharges, along with some 15AH lifeBatt discharges (Sorry Headway, don't mean to hijack your thread!)
> i should point out that these tests were performed at 18 degrees C, usually in the factory the tests are done at 25C or so.


Thanks a ton Steve.


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## EVComponents (Apr 20, 2009)

Jozzer said:


> I met Victoria at a show in Milan a month ago, and she offered to send them when she returned to China.
> I have sent her these results and asked that she send a well tested cell for a fair comparison, I understand that these were probably prototype cells and the final product will be more stable.
> 
> I am a little surprised that cells sent as samples are not checked more carefully before being sent however, I had asked for 2 cells so I could get a fair impression.
> Still, I trust Headway will do their best to make this a winner..


Victoria does not work for Headway, so she has not ability to represent anything about their product other than as a merchant reseller. She pretends that she is actually working for the factory. She will claim to you directly that she does work for Headway. But this is not the case.

She does not do any testing or quality control. She is just buying in bulk and then shipping to customers. So any samples sent by her are just regular stock.


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## CroDriver (Jan 8, 2009)

EVComponents said:


> Victoria does not work for Headway, so she has not ability to represent anything about their product other than as a merchant reseller. She pretends that she is actually working for the factory. She will claim to you directly that she does work for Headway. But this is not the case.
> 
> She does not do any testing or quality control. She is just buying in bulk and then shipping to customers. So any samples sent by her are just regular stock.


OK, who is Headway actually? Lorraine?

I don't get these Chinese companies.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

EVComponents said:


> She does not do any testing or quality control. She is just buying in bulk and then shipping to customers. So any samples sent by her are just regular stock.


This does not bode well for Headway quality control then if regular stock is that shoddy. Have you seen quality problems with Headway?


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## CroDriver (Jan 8, 2009)

JRP3 said:


> This does not bode well for Headway quality control then if regular stock is that shoddy. Have you seen quality problems with Headway?


Headways are used mostly by electric bicyclers. A friend of mine here in Croatia, known as Hal in the e-bike community is THE Headway abuser.

http://greyb.org/

He pulled 470Amps out of a 1 parallel 25 series setup. That's 47C but after that they lost 20% capacity. We can consider 20C as relatively safe with 10Ah Headways. We have done some tests and didn't lost a single cell so far, I think that Hal had over 2000 cells by now and didn't lost any of them beside that pack I mentioned above


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Good to know.


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## BMI/LiFeTech (Aug 12, 2009)

CroDriver said:


> OK, who is Headway actually? Lorraine?
> 
> I don't get these Chinese companies.


If you were not aware in China it is common practice for several companies to buy products from a manufacturer and say they are the representative/supplier. So you may have 2, 3 or more Chinese companies who say they are the actual representative for a certain brand/type of battery/cell but in fact the only on sell the product. They don't do any testing so this is why you have no idea of the quality of what you are getting.
I can tell you this is fact from my direct discussions with some of the battery manufacturers in China. Of course all the Chinese battery manufacturers know who is who in China but it is much more difficult to get this information if you are from a western country and not involved with these companies directly so you learn the true situation.


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## lorraine (Feb 11, 2009)

Yes, I'm from Headway Lithium Battery, its manufacturer is Zhejiang Xinghai Energy Technology Co.,ltd. Mostly of friends here only know our brand name- Headway,but don't know its manufacturer name.

www.tradevv.com/chinasupplier/lorain
Any questions about our products,please feel free to contact me.
Best Wishes,
Lorraine

email: [email protected]
MSN: [email protected]
http://www.xhnykj.com/


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## pgt400 (Jul 12, 2008)

Hello Lorraine,

When will the 12ah cells be availble for purchase?

Thank you.



lorraine said:


> Yes, I'm from Headway Lithium Battery, its manufacturer is Zhejiang Xinghai Energy Technology Co.,ltd. Mostly of friends here only know our brand name- Headway,but don't know its manufacturer name.
> 
> www.tradevv.com/chinasupplier/lorain
> Any questions about our products,please feel free to contact me.
> ...


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## CroDriver (Jan 8, 2009)

pgt400 said:


> Hello Lorraine,
> 
> When will the 12ah cells be availble for purchase?
> 
> Thank you.


They are available. 

I already tested them.

They have 12,65 Ah capacity. 

The temperature raised from 16 C to 56 C at 10 C discharge current (120A).

I measured a maximum 690 A (57C) but that damaged the cells permeant. 15-20C is safe


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## pgt400 (Jul 12, 2008)

Who did you buy from? Or was it just a sample cell?




CroDriver said:


> They are available.
> 
> I already tested them.
> 
> ...


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## CroDriver (Jan 8, 2009)

pgt400 said:


> Who did you buy from? Or was it just a sample cell?


I bought 10 cells for testing from Lorraine.


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## MN Driver (Sep 29, 2009)

CroDriver said:


> They are available.
> 
> I already tested them.
> 
> ...


Based on the limited information that I've come across regarding safe temperatures with LiFePO4 cells, 15-20C might be safe but if 10C is pulling 56c temperatures, that is pretty close to the limits and would be as far as I'd like to take them. The FMA document estimates that A123 cells lose cycle life dramatically after passing 140f(60c) temperatures, I'd say that this makes sense as Thunder Sky and other prismatic manufacturers seem to put 55c as their top specified temperature.

I'm sure they are great with 20C or possibly even beyond as a short term pulse discharge but if they are getting beyond 60 Celsius on a regular basis, I'm curious as to how long they would last. I'm not sure what use, other than in the RC community that anyone would have for anything more than 20C continuous, especially considering 20C is a 3 minute discharge.

I see situations like replacing NiMh cells from a hybrid pack where they pull about 100 amps(15C) from 6.5Ah packs where a high draw capability would be useful. In fact LiFePO4 is already used like this now, but those who are replacing their hybrid packs with higher capacity ones like the idea of using cylindrical, especially the 38mm diameter size since it is only slightly larger than the D NiMH cells used in Honda hybrids and minimal modification is needed to the physical case to slide them into position so the pack is neat and looks just like the stock system but with more capacity and it leaves the ability to utilize the systems built in cooling and heating from the HVAC system if its needed under high loads or cold outside and needs to warm up a little.

CroDriver, did you catch the voltage that they maintain with 120 amps draw with these cells? And at what SOC roughly did you measure it at(if you did measure)? Thanks
I was thinking of going with the 40120 cells and skipping the OEM case to get 16Ah but knowing what 10C provides with voltage sag on these 12Ah cells will give me a ballpark idea if the 16Ah cells might be able to do it. ...otherwise it would probably be 38120P 8Ah cells but I'd have to have samples to test of those to see if they could handle it before I buy the 52 cells(plus a few spares) that I would need.


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## lorraine (Feb 11, 2009)

Headway 38120L & 38120S(3.2V10AH) cells bulk production are on the production line, and can be delivered at the end of this month. Who is going to buy, can pre-order them from now. 

Lorraine
email: [email protected]
msn: [email protected]


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## Jozzer (Mar 29, 2009)

I finally got ahold of another pair of 16AH Headway cells, unfortionatly one of them suffered the same problem as the last pair (ie, loose internal connection).
The other cell however looks to be pretty good, much better than the 10AH cell for instance.
Here are the first 2 cycles, one at 2C, the other at 5C. I suspect the cell will do a little better when its properly cycled, there was a healthy improvement between the 2 runs, despite the second run being at 80A (5C). I have very little time free at the moment, but will try to do a few more cycles and post more stable results when I can.

Edited to add, ambient temp was 15C, end of the 5C test the cell was at 43C. Last 10AH sample I did reached 55C at 3C continuous..


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## pgt400 (Jul 12, 2008)

Any more news on the 16AH cells? Seems like no one has reported using them and none listed for sale anywhere??


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## lorraine (Feb 11, 2009)

pgt400 said:


> Any more news on the 16AH cells? Seems like no one has reported using them and none listed for sale anywhere??


Hi Phil,
40160S(3.2V16AH) cells are in bulk production now!
And many customers had bought this model, I believe, maybe some time later, they will publish their test results and their porject. Let's hoping..

Cheers,
Lorraine
Email: [email protected]
MSN: [email protected]
skype: lorainy0


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## electrabishi (Mar 11, 2008)

Lorain,
Its been a while since this thread has been active. Can you tell me if Headway is still manufacturing the 38120-P cells? ... and if there is any stock anywhere that can deliver?

Mike



lorraine said:


> Hi Phil,
> 40160S(3.2V16AH) cells are in bulk production now!
> And many customers had bought this model, I believe, maybe some time later, they will publish their test results and their porject. Let's hoping..
> 
> ...


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## DavidDymaxion (Dec 1, 2008)

Might this mean the Pinto is getting some faster batteries? That would be great.


electrabishi said:


> Lorain,
> Its been a while since this thread has been active. Can you tell me if Headway is still manufacturing the 38120-P cells? ... and if there is any stock anywhere that can deliver?
> 
> Mike


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## electrabishi (Mar 11, 2008)

DavidDymaxion said:


> Might this mean the Pinto is getting some faster batteries? That would be great.


I wish. Just looking to see if those -P cells are still an option.


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