# [EVDL] Oh no! AC again.



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> --- Rod Fitzsimmons Frey <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> > Hi. This is my first post,
> <snip>
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> I'm looking at the Ford nee Siemens AC motors that pop up on Ebay now and
> again: 1PV5133-4Ws20. Reading the archives has led me to these (somewhat
> incompatible) conclusions:

Do IT! if you do - make it open source so other people can benefit and 
help. The options with the most internet information right now are an IRF 
motor control chip, and the microchip DSPic30F. Both have fairly extensive 
app-notes on the topic. Feel free to contact me off-list for more on this 
topic.

one thread here:
http://www.evdl.org/archive/index.html#nabble-td17353012|a17353367

About that motor - you'll have to tear it down and rebuild it - it was 
designed to be packed with grease/oil - so replace the bearings with 
something suitable for running it without that lube. Others have done this.

I would love to find a planetary gearset that fits with the output shaft of 
the motor - say 2.5:1 ratio or so. With a little work, it could hook up to 
any 4:1 diff transmissionless! anyone here have any ideas towards that end?

Jon


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Rod Fitzsimmons Frey wrote:
> 
> > I'm looking at the Ford nee Siemens AC motors that pop up on
> > Ebay now and again: 1PV5133-4Ws20.
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Rod Fitzsimmons Frey wrote:
> > I'm looking at the Ford nee Siemens AC motors that pop up on Ebay now and
> > again: 1PV5133-4Ws20. Reading the archives has led me to these (somewhat
> > incompatible) conclusions:
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Lee Hart wrote:
> 
> > Or, it may simply refuse to work at all. All these inverters have
> > elaborately programmed microcomputer. Victor, what would your Siemens
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Victor Tikhonov <[email protected]> wrote:
> > Lee Hart wrote:
> >
> >> Or, it may simply refuse to work at all. All these inverters have
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

>> Technically you can probably make it work, but when I tried unmatched
>> parameters, the shaft of the motor was shaking near 0 RPM and the drive
>> hard time starting up. Once it spins up, it seem OK, but I tried it
>> on the bench with no load only.
>
> Apparently Evisol in Holland have been able to get those Ford motors
> running properly with the Simovert. Might be worth asking them for
> the parameters.

Word is, there is someone at Evisol that originally worked at Seimens and 
has access to the parameters for the Ford Ranger motors. What I heard is 
that they could reprogram a simovert inverter to work with that motor, but I 
don't know if they'd do this for their inverter. It would make sense that 
it is possible. Again, you'd have to ask Victor, since he's the US 
distributor. Don't think you'll get far with this.

Its fairly frustrating that the guy who could help us do this, is 
incentivised not to do it because that would mean he sells one less $7K 
motor.
Jon


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> 3. You can build your own durn inverter and controller:
> http://www.circuitcellar.com/microchip2007/winners/mt2291.html
> 
> My question concerns the third option. I'm an EE whose only power
> electronics training came in school: I've got a bit of the background from
> school but no technical chops in the area. Is it feasible to build one of
> these things?

If you are willing to do a bit of learning, then yes. I first did a small
controller, now doing a bigger one.

> (Assume for the moment I'd actually have fun doing it.) Do
> the commercial controllers give so many more options and programmable
> parameters that it's impractical to homebrew one?

The _industrial_ commercial controllers have many parameters and options
that allow running many different motors just by flipping software switches
and adjusting parameters. If you want to run a particular motor, your
software won't need to be nearly that complex.

> How essential are those
> extras? Would the cost of componenets make a home-built inverter and
> controller almost as expensive as a COTS version?

Your first one will cost you a lot of time and effort. First one will cost
more money than a commercial _industrial_ controller, but less than a
siemens or brusa, etc. However, when you are done you will have something
which you can modify to your hearts content; it will be much more flexible
than a commercial controller.
> 
> I hope I don't sound lazy by trying to get a feasibilty opinion from the
> experts here. I figure it would take me a few weeks or more to reach a
> solid conclusion while folk here will know the answer in their bones.
> 
As for the power stage, the bigger controller will actually probably easier
than my first small one. The first small one uses discrete MOSFETs (for low
voltage) so I had to design the gate drive circuit and get it to work well. 
I also had to worry about the DC bus and having enough copper connect
everything together. For the bigger controller I will use Powerex IGBT IPM
- http://www.pwrx.com/Grids.aspx?g=110&m=60 - with integrated gate drive,
and transistor protection. It gives you 6 IGBTs in a module with screw
terminals (so you don't need DC bus bar). If you buy their IPM interface
module ( BP7B-LB for example http://www.pwrx.com/Result.aspx?g=179&m=78 )
you can control the IGBTs with TTL level signals.

>From you link to circuitcellar, it looks like that is exactly what they did.

Take a look at AN908 from microchip. It gives you the source code for
driving an AC induction motor.

It you want to contact me off list, I can send you some photos of my small
controller using dsPIC30F5015 DSP, hall effect current sensors, etc. I can
also answer more questions if you have them.

BTW, the controller will run BLDC, PMSM, and ACIM motors (haven't tested
ACIM yet).

It is not that hard. Integrated power modules, hall effect current sensors,
and DSPs designed specifically for motor control make the task doable at one
person hobby level. I did it for my employer dedicating only a fraction of
my time to it (nobody else worked on it).

Fran

-- 
View this message in context: http://www.nabble.com/Oh-no%21-AC-again.-tp17991414p18201156.html
Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> It you want to contact me off list, I can send you some photos of my small
> controller using dsPIC30F5015 DSP, hall effect current sensors, etc. I 
> can
> also answer more questions if you have them.

Fran, great info here!
If interested, take a look at this IRF chip: IRMCK201
http://www.irf.com/technical-info/whitepaper/irmck201_203.pdf
one of these, and the powerex IGBT 6pac with an IPM interface would do you 
real well. It really wouldn't take a whole lot of programming experience to 
put together a very configurable AC drive.

Jon 

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Jon Wagner <[email protected]> wrote:
> >> It you want to contact me off list, I can send you some photos of my small
> >> controller using dsPIC30F5015 DSP, hall effect current sensors, etc. I
> >> can
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Well, I actually took a look at that before the dsPIC. I decided against it
because it simply wouldn't do what I needed it to do. It does take less
coding effort, but that also makes it less flexible.

Fran




> jondrums wrote:
> >
> >> It you want to contact me off list, I can send you some photos of my
> >> small
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

how about Freescale DSP56F80X ? I am torn between getting dsPIC or
that for the next experiment

-kert



> fsabolich <[email protected]> wrote:
> >
> > Well, I actually took a look at that before the dsPIC. I decided against it
> > because it simply wouldn't do what I needed it to do. It does take less
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

I looked at a number of DSPs, including that one.

I chose the DSPIC because you can run it on 5V. It may not have the
processing power of DSPs running at a lower voltage, but it has more than
enough for a vector (FOC) drive. It means one less voltage regulator (you
will likely need 5V anyways), fewer interfacing headaches, and the ability
to connect the output off the hall effect current sensors directly to the
A/D inputs.

BTW, I'm developing using GCC and Linux and my own homebrew ISP programmer
over printer port.

Fran




> Kaido Kert wrote:
> >
> > how about Freescale DSP56F80X ? I am torn between getting dsPIC or
> > that for the next experiment
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Thanks, Fran (and all others who have replied to my questions). I'm
gathering tools now (I don't even have a scope at home!) and will be
peppering you with questions as they arise.


> -----Original Message-----
> From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On
> Behalf Of fsabolich
> Sent: Monday, June 30, 2008 12:11 PM
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Oh no! AC again.
> 
> 
> > 3. You can build your own durn inverter and controller:
> > http://www.circuitcellar.com/microchip2007/winners/mt2291.html
> >
> > My question concerns the third option. I'm an EE whose only power
> > electronics training came in school: I've got a bit of the background
> from
> > school but no technical chops in the area. Is it feasible to build
> one of
> > these things?
> 
> If you are willing to do a bit of learning, then yes. I first did a
> small
> controller, now doing a bigger one.
> 
> > (Assume for the moment I'd actually have fun doing it.) Do
> > the commercial controllers give so many more options and programmable
> > parameters that it's impractical to homebrew one?
> 
> The _industrial_ commercial controllers have many parameters and
> options
> that allow running many different motors just by flipping software
> switches
> and adjusting parameters. If you want to run a particular motor, your
> software won't need to be nearly that complex.
> 
> > How essential are those
> > extras? Would the cost of componenets make a home-built inverter and
> > controller almost as expensive as a COTS version?
> 
> Your first one will cost you a lot of time and effort. First one will
> cost
> more money than a commercial _industrial_ controller, but less than a
> siemens or brusa, etc. However, when you are done you will have
> something
> which you can modify to your hearts content; it will be much more
> flexible
> than a commercial controller.
> >
> > I hope I don't sound lazy by trying to get a feasibilty opinion from
> the
> > experts here. I figure it would take me a few weeks or more to reach
> a
> > solid conclusion while folk here will know the answer in their bones.
> >
> As for the power stage, the bigger controller will actually probably
> easier
> than my first small one. The first small one uses discrete MOSFETs
> (for low
> voltage) so I had to design the gate drive circuit and get it to work
> well.
> I also had to worry about the DC bus and having enough copper connect
> everything together. For the bigger controller I will use Powerex IGBT
> IPM
> - http://www.pwrx.com/Grids.aspx?g=110&m=60 - with integrated gate
> drive,
> and transistor protection. It gives you 6 IGBTs in a module with screw
> terminals (so you don't need DC bus bar). If you buy their IPM
> interface
> module ( BP7B-LB for example http://www.pwrx.com/Result.aspx?g=179&m=78
> )
> you can control the IGBTs with TTL level signals.
> 
> >From you link to circuitcellar, it looks like that is exactly what
> they did.
> 
> Take a look at AN908 from microchip. It gives you the source code for
> driving an AC induction motor.
> 
> It you want to contact me off list, I can send you some photos of my
> small
> controller using dsPIC30F5015 DSP, hall effect current sensors, etc. I
> can
> also answer more questions if you have them.
> 
> BTW, the controller will run BLDC, PMSM, and ACIM motors (haven't
> tested
> ACIM yet).
> 
> It is not that hard. Integrated power modules, hall effect current
> sensors,
> and DSPs designed specifically for motor control make the task doable
> at one
> person hobby level. I did it for my employer dedicating only a
> fraction of
> my time to it (nobody else worked on it).
> 
> Fran
> 
> --
> View this message in context: http://www.nabble.com/Oh-no%21-AC-again.-
> tp17991414p18201156.html
> Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at
> Nabble.com.
> 
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev

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