# DIY Hybrid



## PhantomPholly (Aug 20, 2008)

I'm sure someone has discussed it before here, but I haven't seen any recent talk about a DIY Hybrid.

It seems to me that something simple like a diesel 5Kw generator coupled to a lead-acid EV would yield something close to 100mpg in a small pickup truck, and you could set it up so that the generator only comes on when you tell it to.

A lead-acid EV falls into my price criteria, and a 5Kw generator is ludicrously inexpensive at Home Depot.

How far off base am I? Would it take too much space, or is there some other reason I'm not seeing people talk about this here? Too, with the generator running you would get much better acceleration and could probably skip the gear box if you are happy with low-highway speeds...


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## TheSGC (Nov 15, 2007)

A 5 KW generator is not enough. You really need a 10-15KW generator if you want to get any sort of use of it it. 

The fact is that most generators are just too heavy to be useful in an EV. Do some forum searches as there are a couple of threads on the idea.


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## Frank (Dec 6, 2008)

Right. This gets brought up from time to time. Sometimes it gets pointed out that the average generator isn't very emissions compliant. You're probably better off having dedicated vehicles (ex. EV for shorter distances and ICE for long trips) or wait for a plug-in hybrid.


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## Bowser330 (Jun 15, 2008)

The people who are talking about emissions compliance obviously leave out the possibility of other forms of energy besides diesel and gasoline...

you can find biodiesel generatos, propane or CNG. all very clean burning as well as you can find generators that are CARB certfied...

I encourage the idea and am trying to get some data together before i take the plunge myself.

I am looking at a trifuel generator, Gasoline, propane, or CNG....that way I can be as clean as possible

there is also the option of compressed air, but I have to see how I can get my hands on one of those air motors....


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## fugdabug (Jul 14, 2008)

Bowser330 said:


> The people who are talking about emissions compliance obviously leave out the possibility of other forms of energy besides diesel and gasoline...
> 
> you can find biodiesel generatos, propane or CNG. all very clean burning as well as you can find generators that are CARB certfied...
> 
> ...


I totally agree.
You can find a Tri-fuel generator at 'Northern Tool', and don't forget if you couple a duel fuel engine to a generator head and make your own combo the weight ISN'T that big of a factor... not in a pickup!!! GO FOR IT!
I have been thinking of the same... only with a diesel three-cylinder (like is in my little Chinese built tractor!) running on Soy-diesel with about a 13Kw gen head to charge a battery and run a couple of AC motors... and converting my F-250 4x4... why the heck not?!


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## Frank (Dec 6, 2008)

Go for it! Far be it for me to discourage innovation! There's been discussion on the EVDL in the past about this type of thing. Now that I think about it, some one (Netgain perhaps?) was putting together a DC-motor package for just this type of application. I can't remember if anyone on the EV list tried it or not.


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## Technologic (Jul 20, 2008)

fugdabug said:


> I have been thinking of the same... only with a diesel three-cylinder (like is in my little Chinese built tractor!) running on Soy-diesel with about a 13Kw gen head to charge a battery and run a couple of AC motors... and converting my F-250 4x4... why the heck not?!


 
Because a purpose built full EV with lithium packs would probably end up cheaper in the end


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## fugdabug (Jul 14, 2008)

Technologic said:


> Because a purpose built full EV with lithium packs would probably end up cheaper in the end


Tell me where I can get the necessary batteries (lithium packs) for under $30,000.00 I did a calculation using the packs (the gel type with foil) and the cost to get the necessary Ahrs and Voltage would require an input of $34,000.00 and about $30,000.00 for the cell type... ??? I could do the set-up I spoke of for about $14,000.00.


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## Technologic (Jul 20, 2008)

fugdabug said:


> Tell me where I can get the necessary batteries (lithium packs) for under $30,000.00 I did a calculation using the packs (the gel type with foil) and the cost to get the necessary Ahrs and Voltage would require an input of $34,000.00 and about $30,000.00 for the cell type... ??? I could do the set-up I spoke of for about $14,000.00.


I was speaking of doing a ground up ultra lightweight, transmission less, car which will cost me about $8000 to design/build once I'm finished.

Dropping lithium into a stock car is the mistake GM's making


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## fugdabug (Jul 14, 2008)

Technologic said:


> I was speaking of doing a ground up ultra lightweight, transmission less, car which will cost me about $8000 to design/build once I'm finished.
> 
> Dropping lithium into a stock car is the mistake GM's making


Ah, see the idea I had was converting an F250 (3/4 ton) pickup with 4x4 drive... to do the conversion would run about $14K due to cost of AC motor(s) and 'replacement' diesel engine and a manual tranny for the truck... most of the rest is cheap...


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## Qmavam (Aug 17, 2008)

PhantomPholly said:


> I'm sure someone has discussed it before here, but I haven't seen any recent talk about a DIY Hybrid.
> 
> It seems to me that something simple like a diesel 5Kw generator coupled to a lead-acid EV would yield something close to 100mpg in a small pickup truck, and you could set it up so that the generator only comes on when you tell it to.


 I'd like to see the generator on a 1 wheel trailer with a 2 point hitch.
For a long trip, just hook it up, plug it in and go. Remove it for around town driving.
Mike


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## PhantomPholly (Aug 20, 2008)

Thanks for all the comments.

My target would be a Chevy S-10 using 12 12v FireFly batteries. A 16,000 Kw portable electric start generator from Home Depot is under $2k and weighs in at 400lbs. I would plan on a DC motor, no transmission but a reduced axle gear for a top achievable speed of only about 65mph, both for better accelleration and to keep me from being tempted to cruise faster.

The generator could double as a home emergency generator, and I suspect it produces enough current (or close to it) to run the vehicle at 50-55mph for extended periods if I ever had need to take a long trip. I would also want to rig a timer so I could run the generator for some period of time after leaving the vehicle.

But, mostly I'm just concerned that I might take a gig (I am a consultant) outside my lead-acid commute range by a few miles, which would go beyond aggravating if I were to give up my ICE for an electric that falls short. This year I only had a handful of days where I traveled more than 30 miles in a day, so 95% of the time the generator would see no use.

Again, comments and critique are welcome if I am misinterpreting the capabilities of the technology.


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## Georgia Tech (Dec 5, 2008)

If you built the generator your self you could use a good DC generator to start the engine when needed....some of these SepEx motors might make good generators, have to look into it though...This is not a bad idea at all really!!

what chevy is doing with the volt!


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## Bowser330 (Jun 15, 2008)

PhantomPholly said:


> Thanks for all the comments.
> 
> My target would be a Chevy S-10 using 12 12v FireFly batteries. A 16,000 Kw portable electric start generator from Home Depot is under $2k and weighs in at 400lbs. I would plan on a DC motor, no transmission but a reduced axle gear for a top achievable speed of only about 65mph, both for better accelleration and to keep me from being tempted to cruise faster.
> 
> ...


If thats the case then I dont think you would need a generator that was 16kw(which is what you meant to say, not 16,000kw, hehe)..the 16kw generator is more than 20hp, and thats about enough to power the car on its own (similar to volt)....

Check this out for some ideas... 
http://www.evalbum.com/122.html

4600lb S10 with small 5kw genset is getting 80miles per charge....

So if you had lighter batteries (lighter setup all together), and a 10kW genset.....ummm....120 miles...maybe?


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## fugdabug (Jul 14, 2008)

Bowser330 said:


> If thats the case then I dont think you would need a generator that was 16kw(which is what you meant to say, not 16,000kw, hehe)..the 16kw generator is more than 20hp, and thats about enough to power the car on its own (similar to volt)....
> 
> Check this out for some ideas...
> http://www.evalbum.com/122.html
> ...


OK, now let me get this straight:
1. You have a 144VDC system set up to run the DC motor to drive the truck (a traction system that is totally battery).
2. You have 2 (two generators(?) in the back one to supply electricity and charge(?) and one to take over the traction (with a converter) of the truck to extend the vehicles road range(?). 
Did I catch the info on you page correctly. It obviously works I just want to see how because that was the idea I originally came up with, but we went totally electric instead due to the size of the vehicle. Could you send me a diagram of your layout I would like to see if I couldn't do that with a heavier vehicle, my F250 3/4 ton pickup!!! Using the same basic layout with a larger generator. Just pm me if you would... We are in Northern Minnesota and it looks to me like you too get 'our kinda weather'.
TIA fugdabug


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## PhantomPholly (Aug 20, 2008)

Bowser330 said:


> If thats the case then I dont think you would need a generator that was 16kw(which is what you meant to say, not 16,000kw, hehe)..the 16kw generator is more than 20hp, and thats about enough to power the car on its own (similar to volt)....
> 
> Check this out for some ideas...
> http://www.evalbum.com/122.html
> ...


Hehe - yes, the 16,000Kw generator is for my space shuttle...



No, I did really mean the 16Kw and I only intend to use it a few days per month. Ideally, my commute will never need more than battery power so I'm not looking for a range EXTENDER I'm looking for true cross-country capability. But that does bring up a very good point, because essentially I'd be lugging around another 400lbs to be used only 5-10% of the time.

Also - I'm surprised that the weight is so high. Is that 4,000lbs WITH batteries? Is this maybe too heavy a truck to start with?

Well, all hinges on getting mum's house sold to free up the cash. Obviously I need to do more research on light pickups. Living near Atlanta, I'll be able to buy about any model I want if I just watch Auto Trader for a few months.


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## esoneson (Sep 1, 2008)

Phantom,

You said: "using 12 12v FireFly batteries"

I have been trying to get all the poop on these batteries from the manufacturer and get stalled. What amp/hrs do the Oasis 31 batteries have? Can't find that data anywhere. I am assuming that you are talking about the Oasis 31.

Thanks and good luck with your project.

Eric


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## TheSGC (Nov 15, 2007)

esoneson said:


> Phantom,
> 
> You said: "using 12 12v FireFly batteries"
> 
> ...


The Firefly Oasis specs are the following:
12 Volts
215 Minute Reserve @ 25 AMPs
100 AH @ 10 hour rate
Internal Resistance = 0.0008 Ohms
Cycle Life = 700 Cycles @ 100% DOD
It can provide 100 AMPs continuous for 1 hour

And here is the data sheet on the Battery right from the Firefly website.
http://www.fireflyenergy.com/images/stories/pdfs/Firefly Energy FF12D1-G31 Spec sheet FINAL.pdf


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## PhantomPholly (Aug 20, 2008)

esoneson said:


> Phantom,
> 
> You said: "using 12 12v FireFly batteries"
> 
> ...


This page has a link to "Full Brochure" which indicates significant capacity past 1,000 cycles. That is what supposedly makes this battery better than standard AGM - the number of cycles it will support.

Will have to wait for real-life results before this is to be believed, though.


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## Beyonder (Sep 18, 2008)

I'm not sure if you have considered this. The use of small generators makes to sense to me. I'm working on a design for a F150 or Chev 1500 hybrid. I ruled out a generator because of cost. It would be more economical to use an engine from say a Chevy sprint or get a diesel from a VW Jetta. If you looking at 100% duty on the generator....then forget all the batteries. They're just excess weight. Just put the engine in the box of the truck or in the trunk area of a car. You can get a wrecker engine a lot cheaper than a generator...then goto www.otherpower.com and look at they're generator designs for wind turbines. Mount that to the engine and your done. 
Also, rule of thumb for gas generation is 1/2LB fuel per horsepower. 6LBs/gallon ( = 12 HP or 8.952 kw per gallon ) at 200 watts/mile you should be looking around 44.76 MPH. 

Back to the generator....a wrecker engine from a sprint should run you 2 - 300.00, you can easily convert a propane/gas/ethanol setup. You should note however that the power output of propane is only 2/3 that of gasso unless the cost is also only 2/3 of gas it'll be more expensive to run. Ethanol also only produces approximatly 85% of the same power as gas. 

I think for the diesel option the Jetta engine would be the best as it gets 70MPG on its own. You may be looking at around the 100 MPG with that. 

You could also set it up so that the engine dropped into the back of a truck for extended range..(if you used a truck)


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## fugdabug (Jul 14, 2008)

PhantomPholly said:


> This page has a link to "Full Brochure" which indicates significant capacity past 1,000 cycles. That is what supposedly makes this battery better than standard AGM - the number of cycles it will support.
> 
> Will have to wait for real-life results before this is to be believed, though.


Hmmm... innerestin'... the company is a spin-off of Caterpillar Company, and I found boucoup articles about the talent they have attracted to their company 'uppers'. They are listed mainly as a producer of heavy duty 'foam tech' truck batteries...


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## tj4fa (May 25, 2008)

I'm gathering parts right now to series hybrid my Ranger.

I currently have a:

-40KVA (30KW) 120/208VAC 3ph 400Hz aircraft generator head that puts out 111Amps at 6000 rpm and weighs about 70-80 lbs
-A 120/208 3ph 400hz voltage regulator from an aircraft power unit that should work with it 
-A 150A-800V full wave bridge rectifier that I purchase today off eBay.

I will have to see what kind of HP engine I will need to spin the AC generator at full load. I'm hoping a 20HP or less engine will do it.

I'm wanting to run the rectified voltage either through my 144V battery pack or directly through my existing controls setup with the Curtis 1231C controller to my DC series wound motor (because I already have them). 

This conversion might be a little more difficult than using a gas powered generator set off the shelf but I got all this for under $1K so what the heck. It's all for fun anyway.

I'm hoping the 400hz will provide smoother power, but will likey have to include some smoothing capacitors just in case.

I'm thinking I might do a small pull behind trailer for the generator (fuel assisted with a hydroxy gas Smacks booster) or if does work, put it on-board in the bed and relocate the batteries under the truck bed.

When I checked out the anticipated KW requirements for the Chevy Volt, a website article from a GM spokesperson indicated: 

http://gm-volt.com/2007/08/29/lates...ack-and-generator-details-and-clarifications/

"In terms of the on-board generator, the peak power of 53 kW will rarely be used, only in extreme conditions. Peak efficiency will be at around 30 kW, which is what the car should require at 65 mph slightly uphill, although the actuals of mass and energy requirements are not final yet.

The engine’s job will be to maintain the battery at a SOC of 30%, and will do so by continuously matching the average power requirement of the car once it is turned on. Those energy requirements will roughly be about 8 kWh in the city, and 25 kWh on the highway."


Whether this will all come to pass soon (or ever) at least I'm going to give it a try and will be watching your progress along the way.


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## tj4fa (May 25, 2008)

fugdabug said:


> Hmmm... innerestin'... the company is a spin-off of Caterpillar Company, and I found boucoup articles about the talent they have attracted to their company 'uppers'. They are listed mainly as a producer of heavy duty 'foam tech' truck batteries...


Hmmm...I heard Caterpillar is opening a new factory somewhere here in the states through another message board recently.


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## Beyonder (Sep 18, 2008)

> -40KVA (30KW) 120/208VAC 3ph 400Hz aircraft generator head that puts out 111Amps at 6000 rpm and weighs about 70-80 lbs
> -A 120/208 3ph 400hz voltage regulator from an aircraft power unit that should work with it
> -A 150A-800V full wave bridge rectifier that I purchase today off eBay.


 Your looking at around 30HP to generate the max off that. Thats been my experience using off the shelf components. 
111 amps @ 6000 RPM, is that at 120 or 208 v? Using off the shelp components your may have issues getting that. Not to mention the noise, I think you should be looking at 3000 RPM or 55 amps. So somewhere around 6.6 KW to 11.44 Kw output. Depending on the weight of your Ranger I think I calculated 225 watts/mile once for my old one. ( Got totalled so i never did the conversion ). You're looking at 29 - 50mph. The reason i say MPH and not distance is if your not using a battery bank. 

A sugestion for you tho, goto the local wreckers and see about getting a few GM 200 AMP altinators. I dont remember what they came off of, but they should run you no more than 30.00 each ( They run about 30.00 CAD around here ). Each of these would give you an aditional 12.44 MPH over and above your current setup. 

Another alternative if you ever decide to improve your setup is the DIY approach. www.otherpower.com they build low RPM PM generators. There is a ton of tech on there site, definatly worth reading if your interested in DIY. I think if I remember correctly, I priced out the 2 KW powerhead and it was going to run me about 400.00 CAD to build. So around 300ish USD? It puts out 2 kw at around 200 RPM I think ( trying to remember exact details...lol, so I may be slightly off ). If you were to run it at 3000 RPM you could get around 30 KW. ( = 144 amps @ 208 volts ). And if you were to push it to 6000 RPM around 60 KW or 288 amps @ 208 VDC.


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## fugdabug (Jul 14, 2008)

I have a couple of questions for you:
1. Do you intend to continuously charge as the batteries use up energy for traction, using the generator as an 'alternator' to keep the charge up?
I do not think that is possible without detriment to the batteries or blowing your system sky high...

2. OR are you thinking of charging after the batteries run to a specific percentage and charge while still in operation?
Your specific intention is not clear. However if you intend to use deep cycle batteries, this is not a wise choice of configuration. 

a. You should look up the 'Wiki' on this site or delve into a book on batteries and their care and operation. And especially their charging.
b. Another aspect of you plan could be looked at in this way, you could create a real hybrid in which you run the generator to operate an AC motor and use the DC traction pack as an emergency back-up or for around town... or in addition use a regenerative motor. But in all truth the generator idea only works in a practical sense if it is applied as the main traction system energy provider - that is in place of a traction battery pack. Otherwise the weight factor is not practical in an EV sense. 
BEFORE you spend a lot of money on items that will only be 'items' for something other than a practical system... keep it simple and research this site and the threads and the wiki and buy a good book like "Build your own electric vehicle" by Seth Leitman and Bob Brandt. I have to say sometimes what is in plain site we are the most blind to... and...
Not to rain on your parade, but 'Been there, done that, got the T-shirt'...


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## Beyonder (Sep 18, 2008)

> But in all truth the generator idea only works in a practical sense if it is applied as the main traction system energy provider - that is in place of a traction battery pack. Otherwise the weight factor is not practical in an EV sense.


 That was the point i was trying to make  Sorry if i didn't explain myself properly...occupational hazard..lol. My plan when I build mine is to forget the batteries all together. Maybe 1 to run aux components.

Another option that may be viable is to incorporate 2 or 3 small stirling engines to generate power off of the excess heat produced by the generator.


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## fugdabug (Jul 14, 2008)

Beyonder said:


> That was the point i was trying to make  Sorry if i didn't explain myself properly...occupational hazard..lol. My plan when I build mine is to forget the batteries all together. Maybe 1 to run aux components.
> 
> Another option that may be viable is to incorporate 2 or 3 small stirling engines to generate power off of the excess heat produced by the generator.


I think if you incorporate something in the order of a 15Kw - 25Kw generator, you wouldn't need any auxillary. Such generators can be found with 2-4 110VAC outlets and a 20A-240VAC and/or 50A/30A VAC twist-lock outlet.
with a 25HP Kohler diesel running on soy-diesel you could conceivably run up to about an 18-20Kw gen head... just partition the vehicle with a separate compartment for the gen/engine. This is a simplification you understand but it is more than do-able!


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## tj4fa (May 25, 2008)

Thanks for you comments!

I seriously appreciate any at this point in time in my newest "science project" as my wife calls it.

Here are some comments/questions on the points that you raised.



Beyonder said:


> Your looking at around 30HP to generate the max off that. Thats been my experience using off the shelf components.
> 111 amps @ 6000 RPM, is that at 120 or 208 v?


Cool! that at least gives me a baseline to research the (primary mover) engine. 

I'm hoping to rectify/regulate the 208VAC 3ph down to 144-160VDC to run the motor and/or overcome the battery voltage to charge. I believe the Advanced DC FB4001A motor can take more voltage but the rated limit appears to be 96-144VDC through the Curtis 1231C Controller.



Beyonder said:


> Using off the shelp components your may have issues getting that. Not to mention the noise, I think you should be looking at 3000 RPM or 55 amps. So somewhere around 6.6 KW to 11.44 Kw output.


You're right about parts availability for the aircraft components. Common parts will be a lot easier to find.
I'm hoping to spin the generator head up to it's rated capacity 6000 RPMs to get the rated amperage of111amps out(+ ).



Beyonder said:


> A sugestion for you tho, goto the local wreckers and see about getting a few GM 200 AMP altinators. I dont remember what they came off of, but they should run you no more than 30.00 each ( They run about 30.00 CAD around here ). Each of these would give you an aditional 12.44 MPH over and above your current setup.


Will ordinary alternator windings last without burning up with that heavy of a load?



Beyonder said:


> Another alternative if you ever decide to improve your setup is the DIY approach. www.otherpower.com they build low RPM PM generators. There is a ton of tech on there site, definatly worth reading if your interested in DIY. I think if I remember correctly, I priced out the 2 KW powerhead and it was going to run me about 400.00 CAD to build. So around 300ish USD? It puts out 2 kw at around 200 RPM I think ( trying to remember exact details...lol, so I may be slightly off ). If you were to run it at 3000 RPM you could get around 30 KW. ( = 144 amps @ 208 volts ). And if you were to push it to 6000 RPM around 60 KW or 288 amps @ 208 VDC


I've seen some of those PM alternator type Generators on eBay (SC-16/Manta PM generators) and was considering ganging up a few of these as you mentioned, but the ones I've seen so far seemed to only put out the higher power rpms/volts for only a few seconds. I'm hoping for a higher level of continuous power.

I would however seriously consider using these type of generators for regen/recharge and will double-check their ratings. 

My backup plan was (still is) to buy a 12KW/20HP generator instead of a 5KW generator like that French Canadian guy used in his EV to extend his range. 

I'm pretty sure I can get one for about $750- from a guy at work (I'm still in negotiations). This will be a simpler way to go that already has an engine and associated parts, but if I don't try this other way I'll always wonder.

Terry


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## tj4fa (May 25, 2008)

fugdabug said:


> I have a couple of questions for you:
> 1. Do you intend to continuously charge as the batteries use up energy for traction, using the generator as an 'alternator' to keep the charge up?
> I do not think that is possible without detriment to the batteries or blowing your system sky high...
> 
> ...


To answer your questions...is...errr...yes. 

I am thinking of running the batteries and generator power to a common busbar and taking off what is needed to operate the drive motor in:

a: Battery only mode (generator not connected).
b: Battery and generator mode - Combined output to busbar and regulated @ 144-160VDC through battery pack to power drive motor
c: Generator only mode - 144-160VDC power transferred/switched directly to power the drive motor.
Note: Battery pack is isolated and some power is tapped off busboard to provide lower power recharge while driving in Generator mode (so I don't cook the batteries).

Since I'm committed to a recently purchase large heavy battery pack, I will likely use the battery pack as my main source of power and by placing the generator set on a small tow behind trailer will allow me to connect for longer trips.

I just want to have all the options available to me.

Please blow holes through my theory (really). If my thinking process is flawed, please point them out so I can go in another direction.

Thanks 
Terry


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## tj4fa (May 25, 2008)

Here's a pretty good article I ran across Googling that might help us. 

I'm assuming his generator scenarios are set up for an OTC generator set with output from the generator's 120V/240V output receptacles.

I would imagine the higher 144V EV systems would need generator outputs proportionally higher. 

Either that or maybe simplify the system by dropping back on batteries in the battery pack and go to a 120V system.

http://www.evconsultinginc.com/articles/hybridizing_dc_system.html


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## PhantomPholly (Aug 20, 2008)

tj4fa said:


> Here's a pretty good article I ran across Googling that might help us.
> 
> I'm assuming his generator scenarios are set up for an OTC generator set with output from the generator's 120V/240V output receptacles.
> 
> ...


Good article - and I won't even complain that you hijacked my thread because I learned a lot!



For me personally I'm not planning on running the generator all the time - only if I have to drive ranges further than my batteries will take me. However, for the range / weight equation (and assuming I stick with a pickup conversion) I'm beginning to think that the simple design in that article (120v pack fed directly from the genset through a rectifier) might be preferrable to a 144v system. This brings up an interesting thought - use a bigger pickup and double the batteries at the slightly lower voltage for greater range / less total discharge. This in turn leads me to consider a 4wd vehicle and use two smaller motors rather than one giant one. Rather than run the generator all the time, only switch it on if the voltage falls below a preset. A small generator could be mounted permanently (but rarely used) and / or a large generator mounted in a trailer for occasional use on long trips.

Does anyone know a particular brand of generator which outputs it's entire current capability through the 120v socket?


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## tj4fa (May 25, 2008)

PhantomPholly said:


> Good article - and I won't even complain that you hijacked my thread because I learned a lot!


 I figured by your title anybody could add information in. That way anyone else could either help or learn.

Here's a thread link to another forum that might have some useful information as well

http://visforvoltage.org/forum-topi...eries-hybrid-suitable-generator#comment-14553

that include links like these that might help as well:

http://ntl.bts.gov/lib/11000/11500/11546/KLK331.pdf

http://www.evnut.com/rav_longranger.htm

http://www.perm-motor.de/site/en/products/syn_generators.php?linkid=p&linkid2=3


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## Beyonder (Sep 18, 2008)

> This brings up an interesting thought - use a bigger pickup and double the batteries at the slightly lower voltage for greater range / less total discharge. This in turn leads me to consider a 4wd vehicle and use two smaller motors rather than one giant one. Rather than run the generator all the time, only switch it on if the voltage falls below a preset. A small generator could be mounted permanently (but rarely used) and / or a large generator mounted in a trailer for occasional use on long trips.


 I'm not sure i follow your thinking here...

- Why 2 small motors over 1 large? 

- Are you thinking a smaller 4wd or a full size? I'd suggest the full size. there isn't all that much weight difference in some of them, E.G. A Ford Ranger 4x4 is around 4000+ LBS, the F150's range from 3800LBS - 7000LBS. Advantage of the full size is suspension, If your planning on running double the batteries your looking ( depending on what batteries you use ) your looking at an extra 1000 or so LBS of weight. 

- For your generator, look for an automated switch to switch on your generator when the voltage drops below desired voltage. 

- What kind of generator are you planning? I think I suggested before an ICE...converted to ethanol/a diesel. The Ethanol being the easier since its readily available at the pump ( down in the states anyways ) and is cheaper than both diesel and bio diesel currently. BIO runs around 4.00/gallon here, and straight ETH runs around 2.25/gallon ( bulk sales ) I still think tho that an existing automotive engine coupled with a generator head is the easiest and most efficient. The problem I see with little generators is runtime ( I dont know the exact hours off hand, I think they're only like 2000 hrs or something like that...dont quote me on that tho..lol ) but an ICE is somewhere around 5 000 hrs or so at 3500 RPM before needed a rebuild)

- I'm currently planning a fullsize setup ( F250 or simular 4x4 ). I'm planning on using an ICE from an old chevy sprint or a firefly. I'm planning on a small 12volt winch ( wally world type ) in the back of the box to move the generator in and out. Add 2 ramps with quick connects for fuel and you would have no problems removing or adding it back into the setup. This may work for you and reduce the need for the extra batteries. 
I almost forgot you need flexable fuel lines from the tank to the box if you use a lift kit ( or make your own ) to get access to the batteries.


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## Beyonder (Sep 18, 2008)

tj4fa said:


> Thanks for you comments!
> Will ordinary alternator windings last without burning up with that heavy of a load?


 They should, if your using multiple altinator's your should have no problem. Its the same setup as in an ICE. I'd say maybe go with about 80% of the alts rating to be on the safe side.



> I've seen some of those PM alternator type Generators on eBay (SC-16/Manta PM generators) and was considering ganging up a few of these as you mentioned, but the ones I've seen so far seemed to only put out the higher power rpms/volts for only a few seconds. I'm hoping for a higher level of continuous power.
> 
> I would however seriously consider using these type of generators for regen/recharge and will double-check their ratings.


 The ones they build over at http://www.otherpower.com are low RPM high output. The one they built on the steam generator project puts out around 2KW at only 200 RPM at 48 volts. 
I have a smaller version of this design in my windmill, it puts out a steady 400 watts at 72 volts for hours on end. 

- How much noise does the aircraft one put out at 6,000 rpm?



> My backup plan was (still is) to buy a 12KW/20HP generator instead of a 5KW generator like that French Canadian guy used in his EV to extend his range.


 How much do these run? An old ICE from a sprint/firefly can be had from a wrecker for around 300.00 or so. Not sure if you could but ideally connecting any generator to the vehicles stock fuel tank would make IMO the operation safer and not to mention cleaner for fueling for long trips..


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## PhantomPholly (Aug 20, 2008)

Beyonder said:


> I'm not sure i follow your thinking here...
> 
> - Why 2 small motors over 1 large?


Redundancy. Remember - I'm a pilot. I like to keep going to my destination even if one thing fails. Also, if I have two sets of batteries and controllers, I'm thinking that CRUISE amps would be lower (per motor and thus per battery), so I might avoid the puke-urt effect (pun intended) and my batteries might last more cycles. Third, I'm thinking that the two redundant systems would nicely load balance between the front and rear (one full set of batteries / controller / motor under the hood, another under the bed).



> - Are you thinking a smaller 4wd or a full size?


I was thinking 4wd full size 4wd since I learned that even the mid-size pickups already weigh in at 4,000 lbs. Maybe someone here has a convenient link to vehicle weights minus ICE, tranny, and associated peripherals? 



> I'd suggest the full size. there isn't all that much weight difference in some of them, E.G. A Ford Ranger 4x4 is around 4000+ LBS, the F150's range from 3800LBS - 7000LBS. Advantage of the full size is suspension, If your planning on running double the batteries your looking ( depending on what batteries you use ) your looking at an extra 1000 or so LBS of weight.


That sounds right - they don't seem like the weight would be that much different.



> - For your generator, look for an automated switch to switch on your generator when the voltage drops below desired voltage.


One more thing to break. Also, if I know up front I'm taking a longer trip I might want to turn on the generator right away.



> - What kind of generator are you planning? I think I suggested before an ICE...converted to ethanol/a diesel. The Ethanol being the easier since its readily available at the pump ( down in the states anyways ) and is cheaper than both diesel and bio diesel currently. BIO runs around 4.00/gallon here, and straight ETH runs around 2.25/gallon ( bulk sales ) I still think tho that an existing automotive engine coupled with a generator head is the easiest and most efficient. The problem I see with little generators is runtime ( I dont know the exact hours off hand, I think they're only like 2000 hrs or something like that...dont quote me on that tho..lol ) but an ICE is somewhere around 5 000 hrs or so at 3500 RPM before needed a rebuild)


I would probably simply go for whatever is cheapest and lightest. I'm thinking ahead - SOMEONE will solve the battery problem in the next few years, and in the mean time I only intend to use the generator at most 10% of the time. Why spend extra money for better efficiency or whatever when I will hardly ever use it?



> - I'm currently planning a fullsize setup ( F250 or simular 4x4 ). I'm planning on using an ICE from an old chevy sprint or a firefly. I'm planning on a small 12volt winch ( wally world type ) in the back of the box to move the generator in and out. Add 2 ramps with quick connects for fuel and you would have no problems removing or adding it back into the setup. This may work for you and reduce the need for the extra batteries.
> I almost forgot you need flexable fuel lines from the tank to the box if you use a lift kit ( or make your own ) to get access to the batteries.


Sounds nice. I don't want to dedicate that much weight to my genset - I'd rather spend 200 lbs on a 6Kw setup that gives me an "augmented" range of around 70 miles with a battery-only range of around 30 miles, knowing that I'll hardly ever use it. Then in a few years when they finally "solve" the battery problem I will switch batteries and ditch the genset.


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## Beyonder (Sep 18, 2008)

> SOMEONE will solve the battery problem in the next few years


http://www.lightav.com/car/batcap/batcap.html

These are fairly interesting. I emailed the company a while back, I believe the discharge was 100 AH per connection. Run around 2400.00 each tho.


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## fugdabug (Jul 14, 2008)

Beyonder said:


> http://www.lightav.com/car/batcap/batcap.html
> 
> These are fairly interesting. I emailed the company a while back, I believe the discharge was 100 AH per connection. Run around 2400.00 each tho.



If you go to the BatCap site by search you find that the product is used for "Audio applications"???... 'the world's loudest car'... Uh... the cost and the A/h don't add up to efficiency or cost/build ratio being anything close to the same price in lithium or wet cell golf cart batteries of a 229-280 A/h rating. I really don't see how they would work in an EV to power the vehicle in an economical way???


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## Beyonder (Sep 18, 2008)

fugdabug said:


> If you go to the BatCap site by search you find that the product is used for "Audio applications"???... 'the world's loudest car'... Uh... the cost and the A/h don't add up to efficiency or cost/build ratio being anything close to the same price in lithium or wet cell golf cart batteries of a 229-280 A/h rating. I really don't see how they would work in an EV to power the vehicle in an economical way???


 My thoughts were the same when I seen them mentioned on here. However according to the reply i got from that site ( I deleted the email already unfortunatly ) they discharge at 80/100 AH ( cant remember exactly ) with an overall capacity of 8400 amps. 84-100hr discharge time...there claim, not mine.


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## PhantomPholly (Aug 20, 2008)

Maybe I need to start another thread for this thought.

People keep saying that high-power controllers are problamatic to come by. I don't know this for certain, but I suspect you get a better power-to-weight ratio in smaller motors. Taking this fact and supposition together, my next leap of logic would be to employ parallelism.

Imagine skipping the transmission but adding a long shaft extension to the drive coupling. Instead of bolting on a single big motor requiring a big (nonexistant?) controller, add 2/3/4/5 smaller motors connected to the shaft extension using snowmobile belt-drive CVTs. The motors could be "staggered" slightly so that each has it's own dedicated pulley on the shaft extension. Viewed from the front it might look something like this:

O O
\ \ / /
___\ \ / /___
O____O____O

(Bottom center is shaft extension, other "O"s are motors - post strips out extra spaces, but hopefully you get the idea of 4 belts around a central shaft)

So, if each motor had a PEAK output of 50hp you could have a 200hp setup, but only run motors needed for cruise (more economical?).

So, testing my theory - do smaller motors get better hp/weight ratios? Do they handle surge power better or worse?
Are they less, or more efficient?

Cheers


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## fugdabug (Jul 14, 2008)

PhantomPholly said:


> Maybe I need to start another thread for this thought.
> 
> People keep saying that high-power controllers are problamatic to come by. I don't know this for certain, but I suspect you get a better power-to-weight ratio in smaller motors. Taking this fact and supposition together, my next leap of logic would be to employ parallelism.
> 
> ...


I don't see this being efficient or practical for a vehicle that is going to get you down the road at say 55mph. And the hp rating you are applying makes for nice theory, but it won't work that way, there is a matter of synchronization and pivot of the vehicle (turning... reversing... mobility)... Torque, well you may get some torque but fitting it all together... nice idea for a track vehicle... but a car?.. "I don' thin' so Lucy!!!"...


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## ice (Sep 8, 2008)

Hi to all!

I had this question, a friend told me that Hydraulic hybrids use same principles as electric hybrids? Is it true?


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