# [EVDL] Donor Car Question



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Hello All,

New list member here with a few questions..

I became interested in hybrids and EVs several years ago, and had been 
planning to build an XR3. After the plans got delayed a few times 
(though I understand they just started shipping), I decided maybe it 
would make more sense for me to do a conversion first to get my feet 
wet.

I've been researching this for a few months, and have been actively 
looking for a good donor car for almost a month now. I have not had 
much luck finding a car thats fits my basic criteria and budget. 
Actually other than a few light pickup trucks, nothing even close in 
my area (NC)

Everything I have read seems to indicate I should try to find a donor 
under 2000lbs if possible... I realized I can get my hands on a first 
generation Olds Aurora (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ 
Oldsmobile_Aurora ) for free, or very low cost. The car is in great 
shape and needs no body or mechanical work. However the curb weight 
is close to 4000 pounds! So my question - Is this just too heavy to 
even consider? Should I just keep looking for a better suited donor?

I would like to get a 35-40 Mile range and will need to achieve 
freeway speeds (at least 60-70Mph) for my daily commute. My budget is 
still open, but it will be closer to the low/modest range, than 'price 
doesn't matter' range.

Thanks for any input , and thanks for such a great resource!!

-Ed

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Free cars are usually free for a reason, and these reasons often (though
not always) make them undesireable for conversions.

A 4000 lb donor is going to require more batteries for the same range as a
lighter car, and (unless you want pathetic performance) you'll have to
upgrade the motor and controller.
The extra costs will be higher than /buying/ a more suitable donor, so
unless you REALLY like the olds, I'd keep looking.

For light weight vehicles, old Honda's and Geos are common choices as are
even older VWs, the old Garmen Ghias seem particularly desireable.
Mid 80's pickups also make an excellent choice; small, lightweight, good
carrying capacity and cheap adn plentiful parts.


> Hello All,
>
> New list member here with a few questions..
>
> I became interested in hybrids and EVs several years ago, and had been
> planning to build an XR3. After the plans got delayed a few times
> (though I understand they just started shipping), I decided maybe it
> would make more sense for me to do a conversion first to get my feet
> wet.
>
> I've been researching this for a few months, and have been actively
> looking for a good donor car for almost a month now. I have not had
> much luck finding a car thats fits my basic criteria and budget.
> Actually other than a few light pickup trucks, nothing even close in
> my area (NC)
>
> Everything I have read seems to indicate I should try to find a donor
> under 2000lbs if possible... I realized I can get my hands on a first
> generation Olds Aurora (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/
> Oldsmobile_Aurora ) for free, or very low cost. The car is in great
> shape and needs no body or mechanical work. However the curb weight
> is close to 4000 pounds! So my question - Is this just too heavy to
> even consider? Should I just keep looking for a better suited donor?
>
> I would like to get a 35-40 Mile range and will need to achieve
> freeway speeds (at least 60-70Mph) for my daily commute. My budget is
> still open, but it will be closer to the low/modest range, than 'price
> doesn't matter' range.
>
> Thanks for any input , and thanks for such a great resource!!
>
> -Ed
>
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Ed Holloway wrote:
> 
> > I've been researching this for a few months, and have been actively
> > looking for a good donor car for almost a month now. I have not had
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Ed Holloway wrote:
> 
> > Everything I have read seems to indicate I should try to find
> > a donor under 2000lbs if possible... I realized I can get my
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Hey Rodger,

Thanks for the input, good points.

I started researching this last night, and I think I can easily trim ~1000
pounds from the car:

NorthStar V8 - Just under 500 lbs dressed
Misc Engine compartment, Spare,Jack, Misc other - 350lbs
Gas tank / fuel - 120lbs

I really don't want to strip the interior or anything drastic like that
(interior is gorgeous, for an American car)

The engine and fuel are pretty close, the Misc line of 350 lbs is a total
SWAG, does it seem reasonable?

This gets me to a glider weight of just under 3000 lbs. Is this getting
usable based on the performance I am looking for?

Thanks again!
-Ed






> Roger Stockton wrote:
> >
> > Ed Holloway wrote:
> >
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Thanks Doug.

Nice site, I had not come across it before. I've mainly been checking local
papers, craigs list, ebay etc... Perhaps I need to find some more specialty
sites for this.

I have always loved the Ghias, and if I found a convertible, I think I could
even get the 'boss' excited about this project too! 

All those cars are in the range I was hoping to spend, but they all seem to
need quite a bit of work. I am really looking for a decent car for a
conversion, not a project car that needs months of other work before it is
usable. 

Now that you got the Ghias in my mind though, I will keep looking! 

Thanks again!
-Ed



Doug Weathers wrote:
> 
> 
>


> Ed Holloway wrote:
> >
> >> I've been researching this for a few months, and have been actively
> >> looking for a good donor car for almost a month now. I have not had
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

>
> Thanks Bob!
>
> Good point on the tran. It is automatic. Does that blow my plans out of
> the water, or can a manual be retrofitted?

Considering the amount of work it's going to take, swapping to a manual
won't add much extra effort.

You don't even need to use an Olds tranny, I'd select a tranny from one of
the more commonly converted trucks, S10 etc. This will make it easier to
find an adapter.
You'll have to change out the pedal cluster for one that has a clutch
(don't go clutchless, you won't like it), easiest would be to use a tranny
and pedal cluster that uses hydrualics instead of cables.


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Wow,
I would see what the list brings on this discussion. There is a lot of work
in putting in a clutch pedal, under dash spring, hydraulic cylinder,
especially if the car was never manufactured with a manual, as might be the
case. Also there are a lot of people that have converted to a manual without
a clutch. Sorry Peter but "You won't like it" is your opinion, not fact. Why
not ask the list how to use the automatic. I would. Seems to me that as we
speak Roland Is developing an automatic that gets to pressure at 100rpm,
holds good promise. My Insight stops at every intersection and starts up and
moves, yes it is a CVT but there is still a forward clutch that needs to
engage that I believe to be hydraulic. I would look into the automatic, many
people use them with success.

Mark Grasser
Eliot, ME


-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf
Of Peter VanDerWal
Sent: Thursday, June 05, 2008 3:33 AM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Donor Car Question

>
> Thanks Bob!
>
> Good point on the tran. It is automatic. Does that blow my plans out of
> the water, or can a manual be retrofitted?

Considering the amount of work it's going to take, swapping to a manual
won't add much extra effort.

You don't even need to use an Olds tranny, I'd select a tranny from one of
the more commonly converted trucks, S10 etc. This will make it easier to
find an adapter.
You'll have to change out the pedal cluster for one that has a clutch
(don't go clutchless, you won't like it), easiest would be to use a tranny
and pedal cluster that uses hydrualics instead of cables.


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> The engine and fuel are pretty close, the Misc line of 350 lbs is a total
> SWAG, does it seem reasonable?

That seems a bit high to me, but let's go with it.
>
> This gets me to a glider weight of just under 3000 lbs. Is this getting
> usable based on the performance I am looking for?

The GVWR is only about 4600lbs - 3000 = 1600 lbs

Warp 11 motor 200lbs
Zilla controller + cooling ~50lbs
Battery racks, cables, etc 500 lbs

Total is about 750-800 lbs (not couting batteries)
That only allows you 800 lbs for batteries AND people, etc.
Assuming only 2 people and only 150 lbs each (this is typically way to low)

This leaves you only about 500 lbs for batteries. Lead-Acid batteries are
out, for your range requirements you'd need at least 1600 lbs worth of
Lead.

You're going to need some kind of Lithium based batteries. You'd be one
of the pioneers in this area. You're either going to spend $20-30K on
quality Kokams (if you can get them) or $10-$20k on Chinese made ones with
highly questionable longevity and performance.
Plus a few thousand more for a battery management system and charger.

Good luck, let us know how it goes.

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> The curb weight of the donor is much less significant than the curb weight
> of the *glider*: donor minus all the ICE bits and anything else you don't
> need, often including spare tire, jack, rear seat, sound deadening
> material, etc. ;^>

Yeah, but the difference between a V8 and an inline 4 is only a couple
hundred pounds. This is pretty insignificant when comparing a 2400lb
donor to a 4000lb donor

> The point being that you want a donor that has a decent GVWR because you
> will be adding several hundred pounds in batteries, so starting with a
> 4000lb vehicle is fine if you have reason to believe you can get
> 1500-2000lbs out of it before you start installing the EV bits.

1500-2000lbs? Highly unlikely.

The GVWR of the Aurora is only 700lbs more than it's curb weight.
This plus it's high curbweight make it unsuitable for an EV.

>Wikipedia
> notes that the first generation came with a 4L V8 and a 20gal fuel tank,
> which should be a fair chunk of weight to subtract from the curb weight.

Oldsmoobile went to a lot of effort to reduce the weight of the L47 engine
used in the Aurora, lots of exotic materials, fiberglass intake manifold,
aluminum oil pan, magnesium, etc.
It only weighs 463 lbs
That is only 150 lbs more than a four cylinder Type IV VW engine.

The gas tank, with fuel, weighs maybe 170 lbs.
Removing the ICE and related components might add up to 800lbs, maybe.


> It will have come with an automatic tranny, which you'll probably also
> want to ditch.
>
> It isn't hopeless, but you'll need to be fairly agressive in stripping the
> donor to get its weight as low as possible. It would certainly be easier
> to meet your goals starting with a manual tranny compact pickup.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Roger.
>
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Ed Holloway wrote:
> 
> >
> > Thanks Doug.
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Thanks Mark.

I may have access to a 'new' Prius CVT with under 8k on it, I will look into
that. There has been a lot of discussion on the XR3 list lately about using
a CVT on the electric / diesel combo drive, so maybe someone will have
suggestions over there as well.

AFAIK, the Auroras were never made with manual.

I'm still ready to walk away from this donor if it doesn't seem like a good
fit, but not yet 

The way I see it I can either have a nice car with nice EV setup (since I'll
be spending little/no $$ on donor) or a
ok car that I find with ok EV parts (since I'll have to cut into the EV
budget to buy a donor).

As someone already mentioned, I may wind up having to spend more to get this
car going than I would on a smaller car, so that seems like a valid point
too.

Thanks for the input everyone!

-Ed




Wow,
I would see what the list brings on this discussion. There is a lot of work
in putting in a clutch pedal, under dash spring, hydraulic cylinder,
especially if the car was never manufactured with a manual, as might be the
case. Also there are a lot of people that have converted to a manual without
a clutch. Sorry Peter but "You won't like it" is your opinion, not fact. Why
not ask the list how to use the automatic. I would. Seems to me that as we
speak Roland Is developing an automatic that gets to pressure at 100rpm,
holds good promise. My Insight stops at every intersection and starts up and
moves, yes it is a CVT but there is still a forward clutch that needs to
engage that I believe to be hydraulic. I would look into the automatic, many
people use them with success.

Mark Grasser
Eliot, ME




-- 
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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Why are domestics special in regards to needing to be manual 
transmissions? I've already read over the manual vs. automatic 
including torque converter efficiency debates, but I don't recall this 
being an issue.



> Bob Bath wrote:
> > Hi Ed, and welcome to the LIST!
> >
> > You've really got to get that weight down, if you want the distance and speed to be what you've indicated using lead acid. Also, domestics (don't know about the Aurora) need to be manual transmissions. Hope that helps,
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

AFAIK, the Auroras were never made with manual.

I'm still ready to walk away from this donor if it doesn't seem like a good
fit, but not yet 

I figured that, never saw one. Is the Aurora rear wheel drive? Also, that
four cam motor goes something over 400 pounds without the transmission.

Mark Grasser
Eliot, ME




Wow,
I would see what the list brings on this discussion. There is a lot of work
in putting in a clutch pedal, under dash spring, hydraulic cylinder,
especially if the car was never manufactured with a manual, as might be the
case. Also there are a lot of people that have converted to a manual without
a clutch. Sorry Peter but "You won't like it" is your opinion, not fact. Why
not ask the list how to use the automatic. I would. Seems to me that as we
speak Roland Is developing an automatic that gets to pressure at 100rpm,
holds good promise. My Insight stops at every intersection and starts up and
moves, yes it is a CVT but there is still a forward clutch that needs to
engage that I believe to be hydraulic. I would look into the automatic, many
people use them with success.

Mark Grasser
Eliot, ME




-- 
View this message in context:
http://www.nabble.com/Donor-Car-Question-tp17659397p17673514.html
Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at
Nabble.com.

_______________________________________________
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----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Domestics aren't special, autos are undesirable in all conversions.

There are two main reasons, one is the torque converter robbing some of
you efficiency. With limited energy one board this equals a reduction in
range.

The other problem is that autos depend on the input shaft turning to keep
the oil pressure up, this is used to tighten the bands, shift gears, etc.
If the input shaft isn't turning (and you haven't modified the tranny for
an external oil pump) then there is a lag when you start out from when you
hit the gas until the pressure comes up and then the bands grap and you
get a bit of a lurch starting.
Most folks don't like the wait lurch when starting so (again if they
haven't modified the tranny) they tend to keep the motor idling. This
wastes energy and further reduces your range.

Then of course you have to have a custom adapter made, I don't think any
of the EV parts places stock motor adapters for automatics because they
are so seldom used.

> Why are domestics special in regards to needing to be manual
> transmissions? I've already read over the manual vs. automatic
> including torque converter efficiency debates, but I don't recall this
> being an issue.
>


> > Bob Bath wrote:
> >> Hi Ed, and welcome to the LIST!
> >>
> >> You've really got to get that weight down, if you want the distance and
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Well ok I'll push in the other direction as I have in the past because I see
it as entirely doable. 

1. Automatic transmission.
2. No torque converter.
3. pressure pump in the transmission, runs as designed.
4. Auxiliary pump with check valve. This pump is only on if your foot is off
the brake and the car is moving slower then say 300 motor RPM. This in
affect gives you transmission pressure for taking off from stop and for
parking maneuvering.

The only thing I haven't covered is the adapter. You are probably right in
that the suppliers out there don't have it. So here's the deal, if you
supply the drawing for the plate I'll make it for you at material costs plus
my labor. Only thing left would be the motor to splines adapter and to port
the transmission for the aux pump. I think it to be no more effort than
putting in a clutch and then put up with the nuisance of shifting.

Mark Grasser
Eliot, ME


-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf
Of Peter VanDerWal
Sent: Thursday, June 05, 2008 6:26 AM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Donor Car Question

Domestics aren't special, autos are undesirable in all conversions.

There are two main reasons, one is the torque converter robbing some of
you efficiency. With limited energy one board this equals a reduction in
range.

The other problem is that autos depend on the input shaft turning to keep
the oil pressure up, this is used to tighten the bands, shift gears, etc.
If the input shaft isn't turning (and you haven't modified the tranny for
an external oil pump) then there is a lag when you start out from when you
hit the gas until the pressure comes up and then the bands grap and you
get a bit of a lurch starting.
Most folks don't like the wait lurch when starting so (again if they
haven't modified the tranny) they tend to keep the motor idling. This
wastes energy and further reduces your range.

Then of course you have to have a custom adapter made, I don't think any
of the EV parts places stock motor adapters for automatics because they
are so seldom used.

> Why are domestics special in regards to needing to be manual
> transmissions? I've already read over the manual vs. automatic
> including torque converter efficiency debates, but I don't recall this
> being an issue.
>


> > Bob Bath wrote:
> >> Hi Ed, and welcome to the LIST!
> >>
> >> You've really got to get that weight down, if you want the distance and
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Peter VanDerWal <[email protected]> wrote:
> >
> > You don't even need to use an Olds tranny, I'd select a tranny from one of
> > the more commonly converted trucks, S10 etc. This will make it easier to
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Can you afford $40k+ of lithiums? Then it is easy for weight.

A couple thoughts on the auto tranny: You could have the motor slowly start to spin whenever you let your foot off the brake (it might lurch a bit), or idle all the time.

Another thought is you need to have the tranny shift at high rpm, unlike a gas engine that wants to keep the rpm low for normal driving. You might be able to fool some sensor to make the tranny think the pedal is floored, or vacuum low, or something like that.

Final thought: It is alot easier to get weight out of an enthusiast car. For example, you can get plastic windows, fiberglass body parts, lighter driveshafts and suspension components, etc. for Camaros, Mustangs, Porsches, etc. It is going to be hard to find lightweight components for an Oldsmobile.


----- Original Message ----
From: Ed Holloway <[email protected]>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Thursday, June 5, 2008 7:58:43 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Donor Car Question

Thanks for the input, good points.

I started researching this last night, and I think I can easily trim ~1000
pounds from the car:

NorthStar V8 - Just under 500 lbs dressed
Misc Engine compartment, Spare,Jack, Misc other - 350lbs
Gas tank / fuel - 120lbs

I really don't want to strip the interior or anything drastic like that
(interior is gorgeous, for an American car)

The engine and fuel are pretty close, the Misc line of 350 lbs is a total
SWAG, does it seem reasonable?

This gets me to a glider weight of just under 3000 lbs. Is this getting
usable based on the performance I am looking for?



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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Usually (yes I'm generalizing dangerously) the crankshaft bolt pattern 
for a flywheel would be the same as for a automatic flexplate, so the 
same adapters could theoreticaly work on autos and manuals. I think 
this could be checked pretty easily. I do know that on my jeep for 
example, I could buy a manual adapter to bolt up a dc motor to my auto 
trans. The differences are more likely to be a problem with pilot 
bushings on the manuals.

FWIW

Kelly Hales

Sent from my iPhone

On Jun 5, 2008, at 11:06 AM, "Mark Grasser" <[email protected]> 


> wrote:
> 
> > Well ok I'll push in the other direction as I have in the past
> > because I see
> ...


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