# EVnetics Soliton software version 1.3 and Junior is now live!



## EVfun (Mar 14, 2010)

All right -- You're telling me the Jr is now live so where do I go to look at one and possibly buy one. I see you managed a few more motor amps and that has been my biggest concern. My EV Buggy will be running 128 volts of Lithium and I wouldn't mind adding a little artwork.

P.S. - What is the estimate for the continuous current rating without liquid cooling?


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## azdeltawye (Dec 30, 2008)

Qer said:


> These are the latest changes to the Soliton code.
> 
> *Bug fixes:*
> 
> ...


Thank you!!


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## Bellistner (Dec 12, 2010)

Qer said:


> Oh, and this also means that Junior finally is available and shipping will begin!


*Squeeeeeeee!*

Man I wish my EV conversion was ready to go!


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## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

EVfun said:


> All right -- You're telling me the Jr is now live so where do I go to look at one and possibly buy one.


I'm not sure which dealers are likely to have it first - I try to stick to engineering and let Seb/Chris handle the manufacturing and management end of things. I know that Kostov in Sofia, Bulgaria has a standing order for a bunch of them, and a few other dealers have shown interest. Rebirth Auto is almost assuredly going to have some first (as they are our sister company that does conversions, makes motor adapters, etc...). Not sure if anyone in the Pacific Northwest will be carrying them, however. Haven't gotten much traction with dealers out there.



EVfun said:


> P.S. - What is the estimate for the continuous current rating without liquid cooling?


That's difficult to answer... Like Zen-koan difficult. My recommendation is that if your vehicle exceeds 2000 lbs and/or you want to use idle with an automatic transmission that you plan on liquid cooling. The continuous current rating with air cooling looks like it will be somewhere between 225A at the low end and 285A at the high end. It depends alot on duty cycle, ambient temp, pack voltage.


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## Qer (May 7, 2008)

azdeltawye said:


> Thank you!!


Let me know how it works out.


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## m38mike (Dec 27, 2008)

Bellistner said:


> *Squeeeeeeee!*
> 
> Man I wish my EV conversion was ready to go!


I am so glad that mine IS ready to go! Only thing missing is the brain, so I'm anxious for Junior to arrive!


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## dimitri (May 16, 2008)

Updated my Soliton1 with latest code yesterday. Update worked as expected, controller works great, as always. Even quieter now, since fans don't come on while cool. Good job! Thanks!


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

Is it wrong to covet?


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## FarFromStock (Mar 16, 2009)

Thanks! I'll be updating tonight and give it a drive tomorrow.


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## m38mike (Dec 27, 2008)

UPS just delivered a brand new baby Junior this week!  Wow! That's a beautiful piece of work!  I spent most of Monday evening with it on my lap as I read the manual and studied the connections. I've got a little work to do to change my current wiring to take advantage of some of the Junior's capabilities. But that's a good challenge. I'm very excited to get this installed in Electro-Willys to see how it'll run. Now I just wish the weather would warm up. It was only -26 F this morning.  Makes it hard to work in an unheated garage.


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## Yabert (Feb 7, 2010)

Nice to see!!.


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## piotrsko (Dec 9, 2007)

Gee that's cute, almost to the point I'd give up my -1

Oh Heck NO


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## karlos (Jun 30, 2008)

Congratulations on the release! A technically and optically great looking Controller!
There is even less distance between my not having and having an EV grin now


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## corbin (Apr 6, 2010)

Looks awesome! I wish the Jr would have come out 6 months ago as I probably would have snapped one up in a jiffy.

corbin


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## EVfun (Mar 14, 2010)

Oooh, that's purdy!


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## Bellistner (Dec 12, 2010)

That is one good-looking hunk of metal.


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## rwaudio (May 22, 2008)

I like the new LED & ethernet locations, makes the LED's a whole lot more visible. (not that you would use them daily, but for the first few power ups)


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## Yabert (Feb 7, 2010)

Is it true??? From Kostov site...

SJR is capable of 600A peak at up to 340VDC. It has the same extensive list of features as Soliton1 including water cooling and support for an rpm sensor


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## Qer (May 7, 2008)

Yabert said:


> Is it true??? From Kostov site...
> 
> SJR is capable of 600A peak at up to 340VDC. It has the same extensive list of features as Soliton1 including water cooling and support for an rpm sensor


Yep. But please note that it's 600A peak, not continuous. Don't remember the continuous levels (Tesseract has to tell you those) but IIRC it's in the high 400A's with proper water cooling.


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## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

Yabert said:


> Is it true??? From Kostov site...
> 
> SJR is capable of 600A peak at up to 340VDC. It has the same extensive list of features as Soliton1 including water cooling and support for an rpm sensor


I really wish Kostov (and other's) wouldn't quote the maximum input voltage as if it were nominal. Both the Junior and Soliton1 are 300VDC nominal controllers, thus the rating is 600A peak (~500A continuous) at 300VDC, not 340VDC.

The length of time you can get 600A depends entirely on how cool you keep the IGBT, and the IGBT temperature is sensed by a thermistor inside the module so we can respond to it heating up much more quickly than we can in the Soliton1 (which is why the Soliton1 does not have a peak rating, just a continuous one). If you cool the Junior with 1gpm (4lpm) of water at 25C you can get 600A for a good 4-6 seconds before it derates to a continuous of around 500A depending on the performance of the cooling loop. 

Thermal derating in the Junior otherwise works the same as in the Soliton1 - decreasing output by a small percentage for each 0.5C rise in temp - but the temperature scales are different in the two controllers.

Another nice thing about the IGBT module in the Junior is that it has less internal inductance so it doesn't need a snubber to dampen ringing. This will give it a much better chance of passing the new European EMC regulations that go into effect this month (the Soliton1 as of now doesn't quite make the grade, but it comes within spitting distance so it should be possible to tweak the gate drive and/or snubber to get emissions under the exceptionally brutal 32dBuV/m limit).


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## Yabert (Feb 7, 2010)

Tesseract said:


> you can get 600A for a good 4-6 seconds before it derates to a continuous of around 500A


 
Great new!!
17% higher torque for few sec..... With 180 kw peak, this Jr don't seem to me be a baby!!

I start to regret the purchase of the Kelly 1000A.


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## rochesterricer (Jan 5, 2011)

Tesseract said:


> I really wish Kostov (and other's) wouldn't quote the maximum input voltage as if it were nominal. Both the Junior and Soliton1 are 300VDC nominal controllers, thus the rating is 600A peak (~500A continuous) at 300VDC, not 340VDC.
> 
> The length of time you can get 600A depends entirely on how cool you keep the IGBT, and the IGBT temperature is sensed by a thermistor inside the module so we can respond to it heating up much more quickly than we can in the Soliton1 (which is why the Soliton1 does not have a peak rating, just a continuous one). If you cool the Junior with 1gpm (4lpm) of water at 25C you can get 600A for a good 4-6 seconds before it derates to a continuous of around 500A depending on the performance of the cooling loop.
> 
> ...


I think that pretty much answers the question I was going to ask you at some point. Purely out of curiosity, I was wondering if the Soliton1 hardware would be capable of something like 2000 amps peak if your software allowed it. The only reason I was wondering this is because the Zilla 2K has a relatively low continuous rating, and I thought maybe you guys were just being conservative for the sake of reliability. Although I kinda figured the answer was no anyways, if only because the Soliton1 looks physically smaller than the Zilla 2K in pictures.


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## MalcolmB (Jun 10, 2008)

Jeff:

I just noticed your comment on another thread (http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showthread.php?t=55716) and wanted to get some clarification. 



Tesseract said:


> It is unlikely that any manufacturer of products specifically for EVs has paid to have e-mark certification done (we are considering it for the Soliton1/Soliton Jr., but as of now we are strongly leaning towards ending sales to Europe, the cost of testing is so high).


Does this mean you're cutting sales through European suppliers or all sales to European customers?

Here in the UK we have relatively lax regulations compared to some other countries in Europe, and there is currently no requirement for testing EV components or completed vehicles, other than possibly a cursory visual inspection.

I was planning on buying a Soliton Jr from Kostov.


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## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

MalcolmB said:


> Jeff:
> 
> I just noticed your comment on another thread (http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showthread.php?t=55716) and wanted to get some clarification.
> 
> Does this mean you're cutting sales through European suppliers or all sales to European customers?


Possibly, yes. We may very well have to exit the EU unless we decide to meet their new EMC regulations. We do have one major European client that is pushing us to work something out but the cost of compliance will likely be very high for a company our size. Perhaps too high.




MalcolmB said:


> Here in the UK we have relatively lax regulations compared to some other countries in Europe, and there is currently no requirement for testing EV components or completed vehicles, other than possibly a cursory visual inspection.
> 
> I was planning on buying a Soliton Jr from Kostov.


The UK wouldn't be affected. It's just the daft EU countries and their incredibly counterproductive habit of enacting "preemptive" regulation.


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## rwaudio (May 22, 2008)

Just a few new pictures of the Jr. and a couple with the Soliton1 etc.
When are you guys going to get the Jr. on the website??


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## Yukon_Shane (Jul 15, 2010)

That's a good looking controller (I can't wait to get my hands on it)

Following on RWAudio's questions, is there going to be a specific operating manual for the Junior on the website soon or is it all pretty much the same as the Soliton 1?

Shane


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## rwaudio (May 22, 2008)

Yukon_Shane said:


> That's a good looking controller (I can't wait to get my hands on it)
> 
> Following on RWAudio's questions, is there going to be a specific operating manual for the Junior on the website soon or is it all pretty much the same as the Soliton 1?
> 
> Shane


I can say that the manual provided with the Jr is actually the Soliton1 manual. All of the electrical connections appear to be the same though, just in a slightly different arrangement. It runs the same software so it should be the same on that front as well.


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## Qer (May 7, 2008)

They're meant to behave pretty much identical, yes. The controllers run the same code (it's the same software updates for both of them) and the web interface is identical too, except that the limitations differ (of course).


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## Huub3 (Aug 16, 2009)

Tesseract said:


> The UK wouldn't be affected. It's just the daft EU countries and their incredibly counterproductive habit of enacting "preemptive" regulation.


Jeffrey,

sorry to interfere, but the UK is part of the EU. It is not part of the Eurozone (meaning you will still need to pay in pounds) and not part of the Schengen-treaty (meaning you will need to pass border control entering and leaving the UK).

Whether this means the EU EMC regulations apply I am not sure. Guts feeling says yes, but I am not a specialist.

On the other hand, EMC regulations are typically applicable to COMMERCIAL products, and one could argue that a car that is converted DIY is not a commercial product, and as such that EMC testing would not be applicable. Disclaimer on my non-expertise regarding EU regulations remains.

Regards,

Huub


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## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

Huub3 said:


> sorry to interfere, but the UK is part of the EU. It is not part of the Eurozone (meaning you will still need to pay in pounds) and not part of the Schengen-treaty (meaning you will need to pass border control entering and leaving the UK).


Interesting, and I appreciate the correction, Huub3. 



Huub3 said:


> Whether this means the EU EMC regulations apply I am not sure. Guts feeling says yes, but I am not a specialist.


Beats me, but I'm not a compliance engineer/lawyer, either. I was surprised that member countries of the EU could pick and choose which parts of the compact they could sign on to, but I guess they can...

At any rate, the EU has apparently just put new EMC regulations for EVs in force (in February, actually) which are more strict than those for other electric transport products (trams, trains, forklifts, etc.) by quite a margin. Frankly, I don't think these new limits are even remotely realistic for 100kW+ EV motor controllers but it may take years to convince the Europeans otherwise...




Huub3 said:


> On the other hand, EMC regulations are typically applicable to COMMERCIAL products, and one could argue that a car that is converted DIY is not a commercial product, and as such that EMC testing would not be applicable. Disclaimer on my non-expertise regarding EU regulations remains.


No such luck... If you interpret the rules strictly, you aren't even allowed to convert your car without submitting it for EMC testing at an approved testing lab. Not really practical, even if you were assured it would pass (and believe me, you aren't).


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## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

rwaudio said:


> ...
> When are you guys going to get the Jr. on the website??


Good question. I know we hired someone to design a new website, but we've been too busy trying to recover from the recent supply chain fiasco to spend any time with them on it.



Yukon_Shane said:


> Following on RWAudio's questions, is there going to be a specific operating manual for the Junior on the website soon or is it all pretty much the same as the Soliton 1?


It will be a single manual covering both controllers because they are very similar. The low voltage terminal strip connections are the same, the software is the same, it's just the high power connections and current ratings that are different (oh, and the physical size, of course).


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## brainzel (Jun 15, 2009)

Huub3 said:


> On the other hand, EMC regulations are typically applicable to COMMERCIAL products, and one could argue that a car that is converted DIY is not a commercial product, and as such that EMC testing would not be applicable. Disclaimer on my non-expertise regarding EU regulations remains.


Every single car first build after 2003 must pass a EMC testing. Before 2003 it is in the decision of the inspector who checks the car.
These decison is based on informations about the component.
If you got no EMC-info to your components like motor or controller, it is more than likely that the inspector wants a whole EMC which is about 2000-6000 Euros.
Our private conversion of a 1999 New Beetle didn't need a EMC because we had documents from Curtis and I could show the inspector other cars running in germany with the same motor.
So _everything_ you can get from the builder/distributor would help you to get your car legal on german streets.

If we do another conversion (and we will) we are still looking to get a Soliton Jr. and try to get it passing the inspection.
As a commercial dealer, I would send the unit to an emc-labour once(!) and get a type classification.
This classification should be valid to all similar controllers.


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## MalcolmB (Jun 10, 2008)

brainzel said:


> Every single car first build after 2003 must pass a EMC testing.


That may be true in Germany, but as Huub said, not in the UK. There is no formal testing process in place in the UK, unless it was introduced in the last few months.

If you replace an internal combustion engine with an electric motor you simply report this as a change of fuel type to the licensing agency (DVLA). They then pass the information on to a local office, which will possibly ask for a visual inspection to check that you have replaced the engine and to check serial numbers.

EVs have zero road tax in the UK, so the DVLA are mainly interested in making sure you have actually done the conversion. They sometimes also ask for a receipt for the purchase of the motor or an invoice to show that the conversion was carried out by a registered company. Requirements vary from office to office, and often from person to person. Like I said, it's a fairly lax system, and hopefully it will stay that way, regardless of EU directives.


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## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

brainzel said:


> If we do another conversion (and we will) we are still looking to get a Soliton Jr. and try to get it passing the inspection.
> As a commercial dealer, I would send the unit to an emc-labour once(!) and get a type classification.
> This classification should be valid to all similar controllers.


This is more or less what a client in the Netherlands is doing right now. They are submitting whole vehicles for testing and relaying the results back to us in the hopes that we will figure out a way to make the controllers EMC compliant. It does not look like I'll be able to make the Soliton1 compliant without a major redesign so they have swapped it out for a Junior in one vehicle and will be retesting on March 11. 

The permissible emissions limit, btw, is 32dBuV/m, which is derived from the generic industrial EMC directive, EN 55011; our worst emission band on the Soliton1 came in at 67dBuV/m which is 45dB (or ~203x) worse than is allowed. The Soliton1 already has a full metal enclosure to reduce E-field emissions and a laminated bus structure to almost entirely cancel out H-field emissions (confirmed by testing - virtually no H-field noise from the controller). We may have to put the bulkhead terminals inside the enclosure (accessible through a removable panel) along with a conduit-termination collar to maintain shield integrity over the entire wiring run (if such wiring discipline is followed, of course).

Anyway, we'll see what comes of the March 11 testing and possibly make a decision on whether to continue pursuing the European market or abandon it.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Get the car registered with a Curtis installed then swap it out for the Soliton  Maybe you guys can all chip in on a Curtis that you pass around for inspections.


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## brainzel (Jun 15, 2009)

MalcolmB said:


> That may be true in Germany, but as Huub said, not in the UK.


Yes, sorry. I can only say whats happened to me in germany. I don't know much about the UK rules. But it would be sad, if Evnetics would not sell to europe if there is a problem in one of the countries. That was my fear ;-)


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## glaurung (Nov 11, 2009)

If SolitonJr gets the pass for emc you can always change to big brother after inspection. Nobody will know if it is not the one you used to licence your car.


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## rfhendrix (Jan 24, 2011)

glaurung said:


> If SolitonJr gets the pass for emc you can always change to big brother after inspection. Nobody will know if it is not the one you used to licence your car.


You and I must have attended the same school.


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## Jozzer (Mar 29, 2009)

I can say that I have sucessfully registered many electric vehicles in the UK, and know many many others who have done the same, with no supporting documentation for EMC regulations..
Only a cursory inspection by non experts is required (local DVLA office staff).


Steve


Tesseract said:


> Interesting, and I appreciate the correction, Huub3.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## rfhendrix (Jan 24, 2011)

Can someone give me the dimensions of the Soliton jr. So I can make the mounting platform?


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## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

rfhendrix said:


> Can someone give me the dimensions of the Soliton jr. So I can make the mounting platform?


Nope, not yet. We'll be creating a PDF from the enclosure's 3D cad drawing just like there is for the Soliton1 which you should be able to download from the website soon.

(edit)

Our M.E. got it done so here it is:


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## Mesuge (Mar 6, 2008)

brainzel said:


> Yes, sorry. I can only say whats happened to me in germany. I don't know much about the UK rules. But it would be sad, if Evnetics would not sell to europe if there is a problem in one of the countries. That was my fear ;-)


The issue here is that UK in defense of its small-independent car manufacturing base and related traditions among other things opted out of couple of binding treaties/standards. Otherwise being applicable in most of the rest of the EU bloc (without UK and semi-associated countries like Norway and CH say ~500M people). So, that's why brits enjoy somewhat relaxed rules on kit car conversions and pretty much no rules on ev conversions, which are pretty similar in many instances to the "crazy" situation within the US, where thse clerks don't even want to be bothered and see the freaking inspected conversion vehicle, they just type the change in the computer database, lol.

So, it's not about UK v. Germany, but more or less about the entire continent and its market potential. Hopefully, EVnetics might partner with someone in the future to share those entry costs. Also it could be perhaps possible/feasible to apply for these tests in other country, than say Germany or Netherlands, were one can expect any silly few days test to be on the uber expensive side. 

Since, you (EVnetics) have got partners in Bulgaria/Kostov motors?, check it there, quite likely it could be done under their local/national testing authority, but issuing continent wide biding approval in the end or Crodriver can ask/call someone in Zagreb etc.

Plus, these are not only EU-binding set of rules, most of this stuff is also shared on upper int. level. So, that's why for instance in Australia the regulations/procedures for inspection of individual conversions are quite similar, i.e. strict from the US/UK viewpoint, although this particular issue of emission testing for component compliance is not such problem overthere, but check for details directly with forum members from that region.


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## rfhendrix (Jan 24, 2011)

Tesseract said:


> Nope, not yet. We'll be creating a PDF from the enclosure's 3D cad drawing just like there is for the Soliton1 which you should be able to download from the website soon.


Thank you.


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## MalcolmB (Jun 10, 2008)

Mesuge said:


> The issue here is that UK in defense of its small-independent car manufacturing base and related traditions among other things opted out of couple of binding treaties/standards.


Thanks for the clarification Mesuge.


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## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

Mesuge said:


> So, it's not about UK v. Germany, but more or less about the entire continent and its market potential.


Yep. That was my understanding. That the UK is more lax about EMC right now is, at best, a temporary condition.



Mesuge said:


> Hopefully, EVnetics might partner with someone in the future to share those entry costs....


We already are with a conversion company in the Netherlands that is keenly interested in us passing these tests. The problem, though, is that the tests themselves are completely divorced from reality. You can't expect a 300kW motor controller to have the same emissions as a microwave oven. Sorry, ain't gonna happen.



Mesuge said:


> Since, you (EVnetics) have got partners in Bulgaria/Kostov motors?


Kostov is able to get away with only doing self-certification (for the CE mark) because motors are a genuinely "generic" industrial product. Our products are clearly aimed at the automotive market and therefore technically have to comply with the much more stringent "e-mark" directives. Kelly, Curtis, NetGain Controls, Synkromotive, etc..., also need to comply with the e-mark directives if their stuff is used in EVs, but some of these players have opted to pretend their products are strictly for industrial use and so have gone the self-certification route (ie - got a CE mark). But the CE mark doesn't mean jack shit in an on-road vehicle, and, in fact, it is technically worse to choose an improper certification directive to test to than to not have been tested at all... The EU has some pretty stiff penalties for companies that try to game their EMC rules, including steep fines and even outright banning the offending company. 

We expected to have to go through this process at some point, just not so soon and not with the "first generation" controllers.


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## MalcolmB (Jun 10, 2008)

Tesseract said:


> That the UK is more lax about EMC right now is, at best, a temporary condition.


You're probably (unfortunately) right. I understand and respect your position on this, it's makes sense for your company to do this right now rather than stick your head in the sand.

I'm curious though, what exactly are the real-world risks of excessive EM noise, apart from messing with radio reception, and how do the big boys (Nissan, GM etc) cope with compliance if it's so difficult to achieve for an EV controller?


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## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

MalcolmB said:


> ...I'm curious though, what exactly are the real-world risks of excessive EM noise, apart from messing with radio reception, and how do the big boys (Nissan, GM etc) cope with compliance if it's so difficult to achieve for an EV controller?


Here's a fun quote that explains much of just how the big boys skated through the process:



> In their paper entitled, "Investigation of Electromagnetic Emissions Measurements Practices for Alternative Powertrain Road Vehicles," Alastair Ruddle et al. note that standard broadband emissions tests call for the vehicle's engine to be disengaged, idling at a constant speed. Narrowband emissions tests require that the engine be off but the electrical power be on to test the ESA emissions.
> 
> 
> With alternative-power vehicles, however, these conditions do not exercise the drive system. Electric motors draw current based on their load and draw no current when not engaged, so the standard test setup would not stimulate emissions from the motor or its power system. Further, with the motor off, some ESA components would not be active, so the standard test setup would miss any emissions from these modules.
> ...



You can see the full article here:

http://www.tmworld.com/article/318652-Automotive_EMC_A_moving_target.php


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## Roy Von Rogers (Mar 21, 2009)

Tesseract said:


> Here's a fun quote that explains much of just how the big boys skated through the process:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thats interesting, havent tried to put my dual band vhf/uhf rig in my ev yet to see how much interference I would get.

The wonderfull world of goverment regulations. Considering everyone is running around with bluetooth and cell phones on there ears and wifi everywhere, I cant imagine that ev's can be any worst..lol

"were from the goverment and were here to help"..run like hell..lol

Roy


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## Yukon_Shane (Jul 15, 2010)

I just received my soliton Jr. yesterday and can't wait to start the installation. 

One thing I'm wondering about is the ethernet cable connection which looks a bit different then the Soliton 1. Like the Soliton 1 it looks like it was designed for some kind of lock-able/waterproof connection but the Jr seems to have a plastic screw type connection. I would like to connect this port to the interior of the car. Could anyone recommend a waterproof ethernet cable/connection?

thanks,

Shane


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## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

Yukon_Shane said:


> One thing I'm wondering about is the ethernet cable connection which looks a bit different then the Soliton 1. Like the Soliton 1 it looks like it was designed for some kind of lock-able/waterproof connection but the Jr seems to have a plastic screw type connection. I would like to connect this port to the interior of the car. Could anyone recommend a waterproof ethernet cable/connection?


We use 3 different ethernet ports on our controllers depending on what is actually available (parts are constantly going out of stock at the suppliers these days). Please shoot an e-mail to our support address (with your controller's serial number, or a picture of the port used) and Chris should be able to tell you where to get the cable boot that matches it.


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## CroDriver (Jan 8, 2009)

Mesuge said:


> Since, you (EVnetics) have got partners in Bulgaria/Kostov motors?, check it there, quite likely it could be done under their local/national testing authority, but issuing continent wide biding approval in the end or Crodriver can ask/call someone in Zagreb etc.


My car is currently at the mechanical engineering faculty in Zagreb. They're working together with the "Croatian Vehicle Center" to make this a model car for future conversions.

They are very accurate regarding physical (crash) performance of the car. They are simulating crashes, i.e. if the battery pack would stay in place or kill the passengers if 30G is applied.

Suspension, brakes, lightning and chassis are also importaint but noone seems to care about the controller, BMS or charger except for a kill switch. 

The registration process for my car will take a couple of months (as I said, they are doing it very detailed). 

Btw. I'm waiting for two Soliton Jr. from Kostov


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## nzev (Nov 20, 2008)

Is it likely that we will see a 2500amp Soliton?? That would kill Zilla then!
Or at least an increase in current as advertised on the Soliton1 for peak power much like the Junior?? (1400amps)


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## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

nzev said:


> Is it likely that we will see a 2500amp Soliton?? That would kill Zilla then!


Not telling! 

I will say this, though... Junior is on pace to outsell the Soliton1 by a considerable margin and that tells me that people didn't really want a higher power controller from us, they wanted a lower power one. That certainly doesn't argue strongly for making a "2500A" version, does it?



nzev said:


> Or at least an increase in current as advertised on the Soliton1 for peak power much like the Junior?? (1400amps)


Nope. We use totally different IGBT modules and totally different temperature sensing schemes in the two controllers.


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## Qer (May 7, 2008)

nzev said:


> Is it likely that we will see a 2500amp Soliton?? That would kill Zilla then!


The Soliton was never about killing the Zilla. It was a result of Zilla disappearing from the market (and we trying to fill a sudden void), not to force it out of the market. Now with Zilla back we'll be competitors, yes, but it's not something we necessarily find we have to win, just for the sake of winning.

The Big Sol is still a question of if we find it worth the time and effort. The reward will hardly be monetary (since the market is too small for big controllers) so it'd be entirely a question of honor and marketing. The jury's still out if it's worth it...



nzev said:


> Or at least an increase in current as advertised on the Soliton1 for peak power much like the Junior?? (1400amps)


The Soliton 1 and Junior are very similar controllers, but they're not identical. That the Junior could be upgraded to 600 peak is because there are minor differences in how the controllers are constructed. For the Soliton 1 to get a higher peak current higher than 1kA would mean we'd have to redo much of the power stage in the Soliton 1 to look more like the one in Junior.

And nope, no such plans right now. Don't hold your breath. Honestly, 1kA is more than most people can handle anyway, it kills motors! Why would we want to make the Soliton 1 a worse serial (wound) killer than it already is?

I fail to see the point.


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## rwaudio (May 22, 2008)

Tesseract said:


> Not telling!
> 
> I will say this, though... Junior is on pace to outsell the Soliton1 by a considerable margin and that tells me that people didn't really want a higher power controller from us, they wanted a lower power one. That certainly doesn't argue strongly for making a "2500A" version, does it?


Hi Jeffrey,

I have a feeling that the success of the Jr. has quite a bit to do with it's bigger brother. The Soliton1 was developed, proven and didn't have failures issues like some other brands, or cooling issues like some other brands. So people wanted (dreamed of) the Soliton1 but couldn't afford it, when the Jr came out it gave people the option of a mini Soliton1.

Would you rather buy a small Ferrari, or a big Daewoo if the price was the same?? In other words I would rather buy the smaller version of a controller from a company that got the big one right, vs a big version of a controller from a company that got the small one right. Just a matter of perception.

I'm excited to put my Soliton1 through it's paces though, I'm glad the choice was available.


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## brainzel (Jun 15, 2009)

rwaudio said:


> Hi Jeffrey,
> Would you rather buy a small Ferrari, or a big Daewoo if the price was the same??


Nice comparison  and I agree with it.

Three converters I know bought a Soliton 1 as he had no little brother.
Two of them would take a Junior by now if they could choose again.

Two other (including me) use a Curtis 1231C and if they had the chance they would swap against the Soliton Junior.

You guys seems to make something right


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## LouMan (Aug 30, 2009)

The Junior will sell better as it nears the markets sweet spot of what a person can afford or is willing to pay for a controller.
buying the Junior for a thousand less is a thousand that could be put tord
a warp 9 and have more to show for your money in this day and age.

Me my self I would buy either one becuase it was made right here in the USA and especially since it was made right her in Florida right down the road from me 

I wanted so much to go see the testing of the first Soliton but by the time I found the build thread it was ready for release, as of now being out of work with so many others the only way I could of dreaming of owning one is if I can get a big tax return  or winning one of the givaways  so I'm down to building my own and hoping Tes can get back to finishing his thread "So you want to build a motor controller" since his controller is finished maybe he can get back to helping us little guys 

great work Tes & Qer I have been very proud of you, proud that Tes a local guy can show the big corps how its done and have learnt so much from everything you have posted.

I don't post on this site to much, matter a fact I think this is my first
I stay over on EM with my own build thread, but always come here to see what the Soltins of DIY E. have to say.

If I could ask anything of anybody on this site could someone go finish what Tes started on the (so you want to build) above thread & just look over the inevitable trolls that may pop up and give some more insite (nothing pertaining to the Soliton) just controllers in general. 

again you guys are amazing over here if I would want or suggest anything else for the Soliton would be a touch screen interface with grafix like the Nissan Leaf, not a laptop or pda in the car, features, features, features not more & more amps 
seeya guys later 
Louie.............


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## nzev (Nov 20, 2008)

Yes, a 1000amps is more than enough for most people and 1x Warp 9. It would however be more desirable for people who are running 2x motors to
have a controller with a higher current output so they can run there motors in parallel instead of running 2x Controllers, Case in point.......Jack Rickard's Caddy! 
1x HV11 motor is nearly double the price of 2x Warp 9's. The better value for money/Hp is 2x Warp 9's every time. 
2x Warp 9's have lot more com. area for brush contact than an 11 ever would.
The 300Volt limit is only useful if you run the motors in series or run an HV motor.
If your running 2x motors, that's only 150 volts per motor, defeats the purpose of having a 2 motor setup in the first place (voltage being to low).
If there was a controller that could either do 384Volts @ 1000amps (which is just stupid voltage really, to many batteries, and hard to get DC-DC convertors!!) 
or 2000amps @ 192Volts (192v is really the top limit for a Warp 9's/11's) would be advantageous for a 2 motor setup.
I guess for the people who want to run 2x motors will have to run 2x controllers.


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## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

nzev said:


> Yes, a 1000amps is more than enough for most people and 1x Warp 9. It would however be more desirable for people who are running 2x motors to
> have a controller with a higher current output so they can run there motors in parallel instead of running 2x Controllers, Case in point.......Jack Rickard's Caddy!


There aren't really any technical hurdles preventing us from making a controller with almost any power level imaginable, rather, they are all business-related.

First off, what is a reasonable yearly sales volume for a "megawatt" controller? The one good thing about this power level is that the people that could actually use it tend to be highly visible characters so it is relatively easy for us to count up _potential_ demand, and that number is solidly less than 10 per year. 

Next to consider is what it will likely cost us to develop a megawatt controller? Our current design methodology is geared towards extracting the most continuous power out of a few expensive components but for drag racing you really want to deliver the highest peak power for a given controller size/cost. The Zilla design is, in my opinion, better optimized for delivering peak power, and the linear component layout makes it relatively easy for Otmar to increase peak power by almost arbitrary amounts whereas we are confined to rather coarse steps in both voltage and current (and price/size, course!). Also, each controller model requires more or less a total mechanical redesign with new copper bus plates and aluminum castings, etc. In other words, our development cost to make a more powerful Soliton would be huge relative to what it would cost Otmar to make a more powerful Zilla. That particular race is one we simply can't win unless we totally change our design methodology for the "racing" controllers. That's not totally off the table, but it's also not something we are in any big hurry to pursue, either.

Finally, would developing this controller rather than some other product be the best use of our limited resources? That, unfortunately, is the hardest one to argue. If we had a choice of developing, say, a Level III charger or an AC inverter or a megawatt DC controller I can assure you that the megawatt controller would be dead last.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

I had a thought, if you do an AC inverter it might make sense to use the same plugs and pin assignments as Curtis/HPEVs to make replacement plug and play, since that's the most popular AC combo available. Unless of course that was somehow incompatible with your design.
Regarding level lll charging, would that be for some company or municipality? Because I don't see too many DIY types installing that at home.


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## brainzel (Jun 15, 2009)

Tesseract said:


> Finally, would developing this controller rather than some other product be the best use of our limited resources? That, unfortunately, is the hardest one to argue. If we had a choice of developing, say, a Level III charger or an AC inverter or a megawatt DC controller I can assure you that the megawatt controller would be dead last.


Take the charger! Variable input between 110VAC and 400VAC, output adjustable between 96VDC and 300VDC and max.40kW, lithium charge curve, optional with cell monitoring


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Level 3 chargers are 480 volt three phase, 125 amps.


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## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

Indeed, the charger would not be for DIYers, it would be for retrofit/installation into existing service stations (it need not be 480V delta/125A service, however - 208 wye and 100A service seems to be the minimum acceptable for Level III). This would only be available with the ChaDEMO interface, too.

The AMPSEAL connector used on the Curtis is a good one. I was going to standardize on the 23 pin connector for the Junior but I was outvoted and so those miserable little terminal strips survived getting the axe once again. I won't be so easily sidestepped in the future, mainly because I'll lay out the boards to require the AMPSEAL connector... 

The pinout for the Curtis 1238 seems acceptable, generically speaking. Some of it wouldn't be applicable to our designs - ie, serial data communication - and some would have to change (ie - dual throttle inputs are going to be necessary/standard for EVs in the future) but otherwise I'm not opposed to it. 

But that presupposes we decide to make an AC inverter in the first place. After all, whether you use an AC or DC motor in your EV you still need a charger, so that automatically makes them a more attractive product category to look at next...


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Chargers aren't as sexy though


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## Roy Von Rogers (Mar 21, 2009)

JRP3 said:


> Chargers aren't as sexy though


 
Depends on what your charging......


Roy


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## frodus (Apr 12, 2008)

Tesseract said:


> The pinout for the Curtis 1238 seems acceptable, generically speaking. Some of it wouldn't be applicable to our designs - ie, serial data communication - and some would have to change (ie - dual throttle inputs are going to be necessary/standard for EVs in the future) but otherwise I'm not opposed to it.


Why not have serial? I mean, it's already part of the processor in most processors, and it'd be cheap to format some data to be compatible with the curtis Spyglass or an aftermarket serial character LCD. Serial is cheap. I'm not saying MOVE to serial, just add it. Keep ethernet of course.

And the curtis controller has a throttle and brake pot input as well as 2 other analog inputs (one is normally used for motor temperature, the other used for emergency reverse). I think you guys could get FAIRLY close to compatible.


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