# Generator trailer



## neanderthal (Jul 24, 2008)

Wow. That actually looks like a cool idea. There have been several threads about ideas for something like this, and a lot of number crunching. But it will be great to see one actually built before our eyes. Keep us posted. It will be nice to see some real life data on a generator trailer.


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## tj4fa (May 25, 2008)

Cool!

Get your MeccAlt manual here:

http://www.powertechengines.com/MeccAlteData/


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## unclematt (May 11, 2008)

You might want to check out the other threads on this subject. I don't think 13hp will be enough to do much.


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## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

unclematt said:


> You might want to check out the other threads on this subject. I don't think 13hp will be enough to do much.


Sure it will... for every minute it runs you will likely get 20-30 seconds more driving time. I think too many people get hung up on the generator needing to put out more power than it takes to cruise on the highway when even just having some replacement power may be worth the effort.

Now, granted these small engines aren't NEARLY as fuel-efficient as the ones found in modern vehicles, and they pollute a lot more unless run on propane or LNG, but I think for occasional use in a range extender they are overall better than the ICE they replaced.


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## unclematt (May 11, 2008)

Tesseract said:


> Sure it will... for every minute it runs you will likely get 20-30 seconds more driving time. I think too many people get hung up on the generator needing to put out more power than it takes to cruise on the highway when even just having some replacement power may be worth the effort.
> 
> Now, granted these small engines aren't NEARLY as fuel-efficient as the ones found in modern vehicles, and they pollute a lot more unless run on propane or LNG, but I think for occasional use in a range extender they are overall better than the ICE they replaced.


I'm not hung up on anything, I just think that after you factor in inefficiencies in the system the payoff won't be worth the trouble with 13hp, especially with the added weight and wind resistance a trailer burdens you with

I think you need at least 50 hp to run a series hybrid setup down the road with a good size vehicle (forgetting the trailer for the moment). That provides a good margin of error and safety margin, and allows you to charge while driving at highway speeds. Of course each car has its own needs and that is just an approximation. I am sure there are vehicles and situations where 13hp would be of use, just not with normal daily driver cars.


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## tj4fa (May 25, 2008)

unclematt said:


> You might want to check out the other threads on this subject. I don't think 13hp will be enough to do much.


Sure it will Matt. Check the comments in the EValbum where he doubles his range with a 5kv generator and an 11hp Honda engine. It just won't be able to run the vehicle directly as in our series hybrid 25-30KW wannabe setups.

Speak French?

http://www.vehiculevert.org/index.php?lien=accueil.html

http://www.vehiculevert.org/index.php?lien=informations/generatrice.html

http://www.evalbum.com/122.html


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## unclematt (May 11, 2008)

tj4fa said:


> Sure it will Matt. It just won't be able to run the vehicle as in our series hybrid 25-30KW wannabe setups.
> 
> Speak French?
> 
> http://www.vehiculevert.org/index.php?lien=accueil.html


 
I guess we would need to know the exact parameters of the situation before we can say for sure. What is the vehicle's total weight plus the weight of the generator trailer? What is the wind resistance of the car and trailer at 60mph? Then we could approximate KW's per mile for that setup, and taking into account battery parameters, system inefficiencies, total generator output, decide whether the payoff was worth the expense and trouble. But hey, he already has the stuff, and I'm certainly not trying to discourage him. If he succeeds, I will be glad to eat a big plate of crow, but not if it only adds a little bit to his overall range. It needs to increase it by at least 30% IMHO.


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## tj4fa (May 25, 2008)

Take a look at the other two links I posted while you were typing...

Of course those two vehicles he converted are on-board generators so the trailer will create more drag.


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## unclematt (May 11, 2008)

tj4fa said:


> Take a look at the other two links I posted while you were typing...
> 
> Of course those two vehicles he converted are on-board generators so the trailer will create more drag.


If that S-10 data is correct, and he was driving at highway speeds, I may stand corrected (if the added burden a pulling the trailer doesn't fudge the numbers).


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## tj4fa (May 25, 2008)

unclematt said:


> If that S-10 data is correct, and he was driving at highway speeds, I may stand corrected (if the added burden a pulling the trailer doesn't fudge the numbers).


The generator motor looks like low-hanging fruit on the back on his Cavalier. 

http://evalbum.com/682.html


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## unclematt (May 11, 2008)

tj4fa said:


> The generator motor looks like low-hanging fruit on the back on his Cavalier.
> 
> http://evalbum.com/682.html


I'm tucking in my napkin and have some ketchup ready for some crow. 

I will say in my defense, though, that these ranges are way lower than what I would want due to where I am located geographically. But that is just me, I am sure these guys commute with them all the time.


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## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

jackbauer said:


> ... I also have an lpg (propane) conversion kit for this engine to make a dual fuel setup. It will run on petrol or e85 (with some choke) so I reckon I could have a flex fuel gen trailer What ya all think?



I think this rocks, Jack. BTW = the max electrical output you can safely pull continuously from a 13hp motor is 7.8kW (* 0.8 for maximum continuous power output and * 0.75 to convert hp to kw). Also keep in mind that E85 and propane both have a much lower energy content than gasoline so you won't get as much power output - probably just right for a 5kw generator head, though.


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## tj4fa (May 25, 2008)

unclematt said:


> I'm tucking in my napkin and have some ketchup ready for some crow.
> 
> I will say in my defense, though, that these ranges are way lower than what I would want due to where I am located geographically. But that is just me, I am sure these guys commute with them all the time.


I would imagine the low winter temperatures and the hilly areas of Canada eat into his range a bit.

The thing about the 60 or 50HZ is that they can use the 220 AC receptacles out of the generator to run their house electrical during power outages and then make a seperate DC outlet after the AC is rectified to run their DC battery pack or other AC/DC tools or appliances.


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## jackbauer (Jan 12, 2008)

I should also mention its an electric start engine so already has potential for remote start. I'm not intending on building a series hybrid. This is just for charging if/when i run out of range or have to do a round trip and cannot charge at the other end. Like say a trip to the forest 

I know propane is less energy dense then petrol but it burns cleaner and is cheaper. I'll keep the normal fuel system on the engine so worst case i can use petrol or e85. The trailer is really small and if i build a nice aerodynamic enclosure (which i will have to do anyway for soundproofing) it will draft the car so only problems are rolling resistance and weight induced drag. 

I am thinking of using a lister lt1 diesel but its much heavier then the 13hp. I reckon i can get the generator to excite from the engine's starter battery and then let the bms take control via the rotor current.


I have all this stuff to hand so may as well give it a try!


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## tj4fa (May 25, 2008)

jackbauer said:


> I should also mention its an electric start engine so already has potential for remote start. I'm not intending on building a series hybrid. This is just for charging if/when i run out of range or have to do a round trip and cannot charge at the other end. Like say a trip to the forest
> 
> I know propane is less energy dense then petrol but it burns cleaner and is cheaper. I'll keep the normal fuel system on the engine so worst case i can use petrol or e85. The trailer is really small and if i build a nice aerodynamic enclosure (which i will have to do anyway for soundproofing) it will draft the car so only problems are rolling resistance and weight induced drag.
> 
> ...


Why not...what the heck!

But since you will have remote start it sounds as if you can conveniently turn the generator on while driving and assist your battery pack after it starts to run down a bit. This can extend your batteries range rather than hauling it around just to recharge your batteries when your parked.


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## jackbauer (Jan 12, 2008)

That makes sense. I could also run it when stuck / creeping in traffic if the need arose. Another potential thought I had was what about a regen trailer? We all know that series dc motors are a pain for regen so what if we had a trailer made from an old back axel and attached a gen head of some sort to the driveshaft flange on the diff.Perhaps via some belts or gearing. Then have it hooked up to excite when the brakes are applied?

Something else just poped into my head. Some freezer trucks use a small diesel to run the compressor when out on the road and an electric motor when at base. A centrifugal clutch on the engine engages drive when started. For electric operation the motor just spins the outer part of the clutch. Now could this be translated into the trailer to allow the gen head to be driven by an engine or by the axel. Sort of a combined regen / generator trailer.


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## tj4fa (May 25, 2008)

jackbauer said:


> That makes sense. I could also run it when stuck / creeping in traffic if the need arose. Another potential thought I had was what about a regen trailer? We all know that series dc motors are a pain for regen so what if we had a trailer made from an old back axel and attached a gen head of some sort to the driveshaft flange on the diff.Perhaps via some belts or gearing. Then have it hooked up to excite when the brakes are applied?


The more weight you have to pull the more energy you will need to produce (or waste). Now if you're talking trying to use some of the wasted energy from braking to put something back into your system by slowing you down as well, that might be one thing, but there's no such thing as a free lunch.

There are a few "regen" threads here in the forum (and one discussing perpetual motion linked below) so you might want to search a bit and see how some people are thinking on doing it, but I personnal wouldn't want to lug around another couple-hundred pound rear end to do it.

http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forum...-free-energy-perpetual-motion-over-13449.html


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## jackbauer (Jan 12, 2008)

Yeah fair point was just thinking out loud I might also try and source a forklift propane tank. Ideal size for the small trailer.


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## tj4fa (May 25, 2008)

Ooops sorry...I was off researching the best way to hook up a pulley to my rear end flange to drive a small permanent magnet motor. I already have a 12v electric clutch out of a riding lawn mower to engage the clutch during braking so what the heck?  

If I can't get enough return power back to my battery pack while braking/slowing down, then maybe I can store it into a couple capacitors first.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

A generator trailer falls into the area of deminishing returns.

The calculations around the extra drag and load would be really important to determine if the returns were worth the effort. 

However, given your trailer is larger then the generator needs I am assuming that you want to use the trailer for payload as well? If you are going to tow a trailer then it might as well help out a bit. You could also set up your generator to be able to deliver 240v and 415v on demand too. Makes it doubly useful.

Do consider extra security though. If you have a nice bit of kit on a trialer, especially if it is running and charging while you are parked up, it will attract attention.


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## jackbauer (Jan 12, 2008)

This is going to be very light and small. Good idea on the extra storage and mains power options. High level maths and I don't get on well. Testing will show up whether its a gain or not and if not i'll simply sell it as a trailer mounted generator to a tradesperson. The stuff is hanging around gathering dust so its something to be getting on with while i'm saving for batteries. I'm not trying to reinvent the chevy volt here


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

Seems like nothing to lose by trying then, just a few hours with a welder.


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## tj4fa (May 25, 2008)

jackbauer said:


> ...I'm not trying to reinvent the chevy volt here


I am. But unfortunately, the Gov't is taking what little disposable income I have and giving it to GM.

Just another Big Business and Big Gov't attempt to hold down the little guy.


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## jackbauer (Jan 12, 2008)

tj4fa your looking at building a series hybrid?

Government is taking my money and giving it to ....... wait for it ...... the banks! At least gm make things. Even if it is 15mpg suvs! Anyway back on topic. I noticed on evalbum some people have made battery trailers for extended range. Anyone any thoughts on that theory?


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

I have considered powering my trailers with a motor and batteries. But was thinking on the gounds of reducing load on the tow car rather then pushing it on battery power.

The trick would be setting up the hitch to control the amount of drive available. Something along the lines of pulling on the hitch to make it drive and pushing on it to make it reverse. Reverse would be quite good at braking the trailer.
The pull on the hitch would make it accellerate to keep up with the tow car and so significantly reduce the towing load.


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## tj4fa (May 25, 2008)

jackbauer said:


> tj4fa your looking at building a series hybrid?


Oh my...I'm such a post whore when it comes to those things. User UncleMatt, COS, and a few others also appear to want to do one.

Here's a thread which I probably derailed : 

http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forum...rd-generatorsi-35557.html?p=137613#post137613 

And another:

http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showthread.php?t=16758&highlight=series+hybrid

And if you do a search on "series hybrid", you can sort throught all these other threads:

http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/search.php?searchid=156258


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## jackbauer (Jan 12, 2008)

I'll jump in with an idea as to how I would see a potential homebuilt series hybrid. I'm a great believer in repurposing off the shelf items to solve new problems. Let someone else do the r&d. 

If we go with a basic dc system (adc motor , curtis etc) and a lifepo4 pack in a 4 door car. Spark ignition engines tend to be lighter than compression ignition. So i'd take a honda gx690
http://www.honda-engines.com/engines/gx690.htm
and couple that to a 3 phase slip ring gen head. I'd drive until the bat hit cuttoff then have a system whereby the rectified output from the gen set were fed directly to the motor (take the controller out of the equation) and control speed via the generator rotor current kind of like the old cockroft-walton speed controls used in factories back in the day. the engine could remain at fixed speed.Any excess power generated could be used to trickle the pack. If that engine is not powerfull enough then the next logical step would be a modified aircooled vw flat 4. Keep it small , light , simple and off the shelf. just my 2 cents.


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## tj4fa (May 25, 2008)

jackbauer said:


> ...If we go with a basic dc system (adc motor , curtis etc) and a lifepo4 pack in a 4 door car. Spark ignition engines tend to be lighter than compression ignition. So i'd take a honda gx690
> http://www.honda-engines.com/engines/gx690.htm
> and couple that to a 3 phase slip ring gen head. I'd drive until the bat hit cuttoff then have a system whereby the rectified output from the gen set were fed directly to the motor (take the controller out of the equation) and control speed via the generator rotor current kind of like the old cockroft-walton speed controls used in factories back in the day. the engine could remain at fixed speed.Any excess power generated could be used to trickle the pack. If that engine is not powerfull enough then the next logical step would be a modified aircooled vw flat 4. Keep it small , light , simple and off the shelf. just my 2 cents.


Slip ring generator? Maybe something like the one I have with this other stuff?  

http://s117.photobucket.com/albums/o42/jaynethecat/Range Extender Stuff/

















I'd still like to use a trailer though. Sorta like this one: 

http://www.evnut.com/rav_longranger.htm


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## jackbauer (Jan 12, 2008)

Thats it exactly. An aircraft gen head would be small , light and powerfull. Just what you need. That engine looks very nice and compact also. Hah i got the the idea from the rav4ev too!

Like I said i wouldnt try to charge the pack and then drive the motor. If your gen set is powerfull enough it can drive the motor direct. Check this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ward_Leonard_control


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## tj4fa (May 25, 2008)

jackbauer said:


> Thats it exactly. An aircraft gen head would be small , light and powerfull. Just what you need. That engine looks very nice and compact also. Hah i got the the idea from the rav4ev too!
> 
> Like I said i wouldnt try to charge the pack and then drive the motor. If your gen set is powerfull enough it can drive the motor direct. Check this:
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ward_Leonard_control


My weakness setting this up is I'm more mechanical than I am electronical. 

I plan only on hooking up the generator trailer when going on extended trips and using battery pack power around town.

I have an on-board charger to get opportunity charging for days where I think I need to plug in at work to get a bit more range.

The engine I have has remote starter controls so I figured I could start it from the passenger compartment at will like when my battery pack voltage starts to get depleted.

I also thought I might be able to tie the generator's rectified DC output to a common bus through the battery pack using the batteries to buffer any 400hz ripple.

If I can run it through the battery pack in parallel and keep the generator's voltage regulated around 150V-160VDC, I should be able to run the power through the existing battery pack/controller and drive-motor system. This would allow speed control of the drive-motor using the existing pot box/controller through the accelerator pedal.

When I'm stopped in traffic and the drive-motor is not activated, the engine-generator should be able to put some of the charge back into the 144VDC battery pack. At the 150-160VDC level, it shouldn't overcharge the battery pack or over-G the controller when driving to where it would damage it.

If I can regulate the rectified DC output to my brushed 25KW generator head automatically (or to my unbrushed 30KW generator head) like you propose to do with your 5KV head, that would be great. I'm not sure how exactly how I can do it. As I said I am electronically challenged and schematical diagrams are still Greek to me.

Because of some of this thinking is why I think you can run your generator through your battery pack and drive at the same time rather than hauling your generator trailer and then recharging after you quit driving. 

You may just have to filter your DC ripple (50-60hz) through some (smoothing) capacitors like that St. Ives fellow I linked earlier in this thread. His evalbum data indicates he can about double his range when using his on-board generator.

http://www.vehiculevert.org/index.php?lien=informations/generatrice.html


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## jackbauer (Jan 12, 2008)

That should work well. Are you using lead acid batts? The control system will be reasonably simple. You can just copy whatever i come up with as it will be roughly the same. What you need is a negative feedback system. When the voltage tries to rise it backs off the rotor current and when the voltage tries to fall it increases rotor power. Just like a car alternator really. hmmm.....I wonder could one of those 24v aftermarket alternator regs be used in some way...?

I ran the 13hp engine on e85 for the first time today. Runs really well with a little choke. It also fires up right away on only 1/4 choke from both hot and cold. On petrol I could have cranked it until christmass and unless i had full choke on it would not start! Major benefit as i was looking at setting up some sort of a solenoid to control the choke.


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## Bowser330 (Jun 15, 2008)

jackbauer said:


> That should work well. Are you using lead acid batts? The control system will be reasonably simple. You can just copy whatever i come up with as it will be roughly the same. What you need is a negative feedback system. When the voltage tries to rise it backs off the rotor current and when the voltage tries to fall it increases rotor power. Just like a car alternator really. hmmm.....I wonder could one of those 24v aftermarket alternator regs be used in some way...?
> 
> I ran the 13hp engine on e85 for the first time today. Runs really well with a little choke. It also fires up right away on only 1/4 choke from both hot and cold. On petrol I could have cranked it until christmass and unless i had full choke on it would not start! Major benefit as i was looking at setting up some sort of a solenoid to control the choke.


what if you ran e50....would it still choke?


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## jackbauer (Jan 12, 2008)

I don't know is the honest answer. Exhaust smells like methylated spirits! I do know e85 needs to run a richer mixture then petrol which is why i leave it on about 1/4 choke. Easy conversion Today was my first experiment with e85 and as i say i found starting much easier. No need for full choke and it kicks over on the first compression stroke. I'm gonna sort out a jaw coupler to drive the gen head then real experiments can begin.


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## tj4fa (May 25, 2008)

Are your going to make your E85 out of Irish potatoes? I was looking that up and found the EV you are making at an Ireland Green Energy website. I think your trailer would look good towed behind that. 

http://www.venturivolage.fr/gtlight.html


http://www.lookintoireland.com/energy.htm


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## jackbauer (Jan 12, 2008)

I gotta get me one of those! Actually its made from good old Irish milk!
http://www.maxol.ie/maxol-bioethanol-e85.html


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## tj4fa (May 25, 2008)

jackbauer said:


> I gotta get me one of those! Actually its made from good old Irish milk!


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## Guest (Sep 10, 2009)

I just joined up tonight in hope of getting some technical input on what you are doing. I can't say one way or the other about 13 hp being enough just do it and see. I do have some thought on the trailer drag. I have a trailer for my ev all ready for a generator simalar to your setup. I conjunction to that I have the axel setup to take a smaller motor (most likley 48 volts) to help move the trailer. It gets even more complicated but I'll see what is said about this first. There is a PT cruser in the garage section with an electric pusher.


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## Guest (Sep 10, 2009)

I just joined up tonight in hope of getting some technical input on what you are doing. I can't say one way or the other about 13 hp being enough just do it and see. I do have some thought on the trailer drag. I have a trailer for my ev all ready for a generator simalar to your setup. I conjunction to that I have the axel setup to take a smaller motor (most likley 48 volts) to help move the trailer. It gets even more complicated but I'll see what is said about this first. There is a PT cruser in the garage section with an electric pusher.


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## tj4fa (May 25, 2008)

notmrwizard said:


> I just joined up tonight in hope of getting some technical input on what you are doing. I can't say one way or the other about 13 hp being enough just do it and see. I do have some thought on the trailer drag. I have a trailer for my ev all ready for a generator simalar to your setup. I conjunction to that I have the axel setup to take a smaller motor (most likley 48 volts) to help move the trailer. It gets even more complicated but I'll see what is said about this first. There is a PT cruser in the garage section with an electric pusher.


Cool! Got any pics of the trailer?

I've just started researching to see whether I should buy one and modify it or try to work it in and build it myself.

I like the idea of having an assist motor even if it's just to help move the trailer around.


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## Guest (Sep 10, 2009)

Yes I do but I am still trying to figure how to get them posted. Its fairly large but I have managed to make the trailer lighter. Its all the generator junk that will be the weight problem. I am a total electronic dummy. So when you guys talk about this stuff remember abbreviations and the like can be confusing to us artist types .


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## jackbauer (Jan 12, 2008)

Just a quick video of a test on the gen head a few weeks ago. Sorry about the bad camera work. Cecil B I ain't
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R7Udq5uUfGk


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## frk2 (Jan 2, 2009)

Just to further my understanding - I also eventually wish to use some sort of a 3-5Kw DC Generator to extend my range. My question is (Assume I have the 5kw DC generator up and running) do I simply hook up the generator in PARALLEL with my batteries? So basically it would be charging the batteries?

My car is light and small and generally is not sucking more than 100amps (72volts) at 50-60kmph, which is as fast as you go in the city anyways. Thats roughly 7.2Kw. If I can have a reasonable sized 3kw generator, I could increase (theoretically) the range by 50%. That is a decent acheivement. With a 5kw generator it would be even more. Even if out of charge I can easily 'limp home' on a 5kw generator.


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## Guest (Sep 25, 2009)

To hook directly up to the pack the output must be DC and the voltage must be at least the nominal rating of your pack. Amperage output should be reasonable too. You'd need to change AC to DC or plug in your charger and charge while you drive. 

If you have a generator that directly outputs DC and that voltage is at least your nominal voltage of your pack and a decent amperage you should do just fine hooking directly to your pack. You need a fuse in line to protect the pack. 

Pete


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## jackbauer (Jan 12, 2008)

You'd just need to be a bit careful of voltages etc as you dont want a)to overcharge your batteries or b)have the batteries hog all the power from the genny if they are discharged.


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## frk2 (Jan 2, 2009)

Excellent- then it is as simple as I thought. I can build in protection for overcharging / etc specially if I simply use the onboard charger and a standard genny. Sounds too good! thanks guys!


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## buozgs00 (Dec 10, 2009)

jackbauer said:


> I've been kicking around a few ideas for a generator trailer addon for the ev. I happen to have a nearly new 13hp "honda" petrol engine and recently found a 3 phase gen head dumped in a ditch. Its a mec-alte 5kw head with two bearings and a plain keyed shaft. It was in a bad state with the control housing smashed in bits. I removed the junk , fitted a new terminal connector , sorted out the wiring and used a 24vdc psu as a controller. This happens to be a slip ring genny. Works well. it outputs 415v in star connection or 240v in delta depending on rotor current and load.
> 
> My idea is to connect it in delta and rectify the output to dc. I can then control the dc output by varying rotor current just like a car alternator for battery charging. Basic plan is to mount it and the 13hp engine on a small 6' x 4' tralier that i have and use it for battery charging (not series hybrid) when I would have to travel more then the return range and not have a charging opertunity.
> 
> I also have an lpg (propane) conversion kit for this engine to make a dual fuel setup. It will run on petrol or e85 (with some choke) so I reckon I could have a flex fuel gen trailer What ya all think?


First of all; great idea. But the question is how you can combine a motor and a generator and control them. How would they understand that the battery is running low and start to charge them and to stop when the battery is full charged.

Secondly: http://www.generatorsales.com/order/Honda-15kw-Gas-Generator.asp?page=H04594

take a look at this web site they already have made such a generator.

Regards,

B.

http://www.generatorsales.com/order/Honda-15kw-Gas-Generator.asp?page=H04594


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## jackbauer (Jan 12, 2008)

As it turns out the bmv 602 battery monitor i'm using has a programmable relay output. So basic plan will be to have the relay command the generator to start at 50% soc and shut down at 100% soc. Control of the generator output is via rotor current and is straightforward electronics.

Thats a nice genset. Bet its a nice price also. Fortunatly i have most of the bits to make mine for free!


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## Guest (Feb 5, 2010)

If one was to purchase the unit buozgs00 pointed out how would one go about charging one’s battery pack with out voiding the warranty?


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## Kelmark (Oct 26, 2009)

notmrwizard said:


> If one was to purchase the unit buozgs00 pointed out how would one go about charging one’s battery pack with out voiding the warranty?


Could you run it through the charger at 240V?


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## Guest (Feb 5, 2010)

A charger was my first thought but it would be nice to get as much of that 50 amps to the batts as possible. The Honda genset is very close to what I have in mind to build. I have been scrounging parts for a while now. The Honda unit doesn't cost much more than I would spend making one myself plus it would double as a backup during power outages. I can do a lot of things but I am “Not Mr. Wizard” when it comes to electronics. I have figured some things out here and there but it took a while and a lot of bugging other people for info to get them done. If there is no way to convert the ac output back to dc with out a lot of lose then I will stick to plan A and build a generator designed for the task at hand. If I ever do get something bolted together I will still need someone to hold my hand and tell me how to get the power to the batteries. I want to see more of what jackbauer is doing here in hopes it will help me out. Should I show some of my trailer project here or start a new thread?


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## Kelmark (Oct 26, 2009)

notmrwizard said:


> A charger was my first thought but it would be nice to get as much of that 50 amps to the batts as possible. The Honda genset is very close to what I have in mind to build. I have been scrounging parts for a while now. The Honda unit doesn't cost much more than I would spend making one myself plus it would double as a backup during power outages. I can do a lot of things but I am “Not Mr. Wizard” when it comes to electronics. I have figured some things out here and there but it took a while and a lot of bugging other people for info to get them done. If there is no way to convert the ac output back to dc with out a lot of lose then I will stick to plan A and build a generator designed for the task at hand. If I ever do get something bolted together I will still need someone to hold my hand and tell me how to get the power to the batteries. I want to see more of what jackbauer is doing here in hopes it will help me out. Should I show some of my trailer project here or start a new thread?


Not my call on whether or not to start a new thread. But I am looking at building a generator trailer too. Only I want to use a light weight diesel generator at about 8kw max. I will be keeping a close eye on this thread to see how things work out.


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## F16bmathis (Jun 6, 2008)

I threw a small generator I got from Harbour Frieght and threw it on the back of my S10 for emergencies. Found with the Manzanita charger, it'll blow the $25 regulator card if you run it at 220VAC, but at 110VAC with the charger set at 15 amps, I can drive all day. (Practically). I tested it the other day, ran till I was out of juice, started the generator and was able to drive at 30-40 all the way home.


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## Kelmark (Oct 26, 2009)

F16bmathis said:


> I threw a small generator I got from Harbour Frieght and threw it on the back of my S10 for emergencies. Found with the Manzanita charger, it'll blow the $25 regulator card if you run it at 220VAC, but at 110VAC with the charger set at 15 amps, I can drive all day. (Practically). I tested it the other day, ran till I was out of juice, started the generator and was able to drive at 30-40 all the way home.


What size charger was it? Do you think it was poor power coming in or something in the charger that caused it to blow the regulator card?


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## F16bmathis (Jun 6, 2008)

Talking to the guys at Manzanita, they said thier charger needs a "pure" sign wave. Didn't seem to matter with the 120VAC. I initially tried the charger with the 120 and not driving, later decided to try the 220 plug, it did work till I turned the amps up to the max of 20, the generator started surging, and so I went to look at it, by the time I turned around, the regulator board had fried. I stayed away from charging using the generator for a while, but had that itch to try blow something up, so ran the truck out of juice near home, ran up the generator and drove home at what felt like full power (it was dark, so I couldn't see amps, but it felt like 400+)

It could've also been my adapter plug not wired for 220. Still gotta look at that.


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## jackbauer (Jan 12, 2008)

First thing the manzanita does is rectify the incoming ac to dc like any other switch mode charger so it shouldnt matter what waveform (within reason) thats fed to it.


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## BWH (Sep 26, 2008)

I can't find this on the current version of the MM website, but here is the archived .doc telling why some 240v generators will kill the PFCs and what you can do about it.

Application note #1: Running Manzanita Micro PFC chargers on Generators (1878 kB)


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## GerhardRP (Nov 17, 2009)

F16bmathis said:


> I threw a small generator I got from Harbour Frieght and threw it on the back of my S10 for emergencies. Found with the Manzanita charger, it'll blow the $25 regulator card if you run it at 220VAC, but at 110VAC with the charger set at 15 amps, I can drive all day. (Practically). I tested it the other day, ran till I was out of juice, started the generator and was able to drive at 30-40 all the way home.


Have you calculated the MPG with this setup?
Gerhard


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## green caveman (Oct 2, 2009)

GerhardRP said:


> Have you calculated the MPG with this setup?
> Gerhard


I keep getting thrown on units, but this is the 2200W HF generator:

11.8 hour run-time @ 50% load 
3.96 gallon gas tank 

So, you get ~1100W for 12hours, enough for, say 24-32miles(?) on your 4 gallon tank. So somewhere between 6-8 mpg?? Seems to be worth it as the occasional range extender or (obviously) an emergency limp home.

I would imagine that you can get more efficient generators than the HF models and not converting from liquid fuel->AC->DC would probably gain you something.

The Honda generator running on compress natural gas would be an interesting addition. Of course, for that price you'd be ahead if you bought a decent used car, drive where you want to go and sell it at your destination.


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## jackbauer (Jan 12, 2008)

Whats required is a 3 phase slip ring generator head like what i'm using. Rectify to dc and control the output via the rotor current. A simple rheostat would suffice.


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## F16bmathis (Jun 6, 2008)

jackbauer said:


> First thing the manzanita does is rectify the incoming ac to dc like any other switch mode charger so it shouldnt matter what waveform (within reason) thats fed to it.


And thats the board that blew up, when I cranked the amps knob to full, the generator surged and smoke! At least it was only $25 to replace. I'll try 220 again and see if I have it wired correctly, try it on house power first, and give serious thought to using the generator again, maybe not crank it so fast!


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## Bowser330 (Jun 15, 2008)

F16bmathis said:


> ....but had that itch to try blow something up, so ran the truck out of juice near home, ran up the generator and drove home at what felt like full power (it was dark, so I couldn't see amps, but it felt like 400+).....
> 
> quote]
> 
> ...


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## gdirwin (Apr 7, 2009)

You mentioned that the generator was "surging".. - when you connect a generator to a charger, they both have controllers which can interact... The generator controls the magnitude of the terminal AC voltage - the charger controls the output DC voltage or current - at higher current levels, the controllers can dynamically interact and may be oscillatory... The current level is like a gain adjustment - higher currents = higher gains = more likely to interact.

Controls in the generator and charger could be designed to co-exist, but they are "off the shelf" components and the controller parameters cannot be tuned/adjusted once they have left the factory...


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## F16bmathis (Jun 6, 2008)

Bowser330 said:


> F16bmathis said:
> 
> 
> > ....but had that itch to try blow something up, so ran the truck out of juice near home, ran up the generator and drove home at what felt like full power (it was dark, so I couldn't see amps, but it felt like 400+).....
> ...


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## F16bmathis (Jun 6, 2008)

gdirwin said:


> You mentioned that the generator was "surging".. - when you connect a generator to a charger, they both have controllers which can interact... The generator controls the magnitude of the terminal AC voltage - the charger controls the output DC voltage or current - at higher current levels, the controllers can dynamically interact and may be oscillatory... The current level is like a gain adjustment - higher currents = higher gains = more likely to interact.
> 
> Controls in the generator and charger could be designed to co-exist, but they are "off the shelf" components and the controller parameters cannot be tuned/adjusted once they have left the factory...


Yeah, I really cranked the amps setting on the charger when on the 220V plug, so the generators (govenor?) whatever had to play catch-up. You could hear the generator engine surge and catch up, by then I had smoke. Using 120VAC, I've actually been driving with it running! Will test tonight after driving to drain the batteries, see how it affects the range I can go, how far, motor amps, voltage drop, ect...

The generator is a cheap $300 Harbour Frieght. My 220 plug may be wired wrong. But I think it was the surging that did it. Should've turned the amps up slower...


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## F16bmathis (Jun 6, 2008)

F16bmathis said:


> Bowser330 said:
> 
> 
> > Well, its cold so my range is 10 miles, and I'm bored, so after work I'll run her out of juice and crank on the generator and see what I get for extened range.
> ...


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## Bowser330 (Jun 15, 2008)

thanks for the feedback, more info always wanted, if you get some time!


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## F16bmathis (Jun 6, 2008)

Drove the S10 out of juice again. Set charger for almost max amps approx 18A) and continued driving. Could not get above 200 amps, Zilla set to 125V minimum, 144V pack, generator was the cheapest harbour freight model I could find ($300), truck got slower as I drove another 5 miles. 

So its a good backup, but connected this way, will not even maintain 35 in stop and go traffic. Also, trying to go to full amps on the Manzanita caused the generator to almost die, I turned amps to 0 and it came back to life, so I left well alone at about 3/4 amps (maybe 15A).

Would it be better to connect a 144V (180V) generator straight to the batteries, skipping the charger? Would be more efficient. How could I try that with what I have?..... transformer, a few diodes....

On another topic, my pedal generator is easier to pedal when my backup battery pack is low, than when it is almost full. Same appears to be true when I'm using the power than when I'm trying to pump it back into a battery pack. Am I making this up? When the generator is connected to a controller and battery pack its hard to pedal, when connected to another motor with a fan, its very easy to pedal and the fan spins very fast. So my guess is it would be easier for a generator to be connected straight to the trucks motor (or controller?) to produce motion of the truck.

Maybe I'll just fork out some $$$$ for some LiFePo4's!


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