# suzuki 800 hatch, i bought it half converted



## arklan (Dec 10, 2012)

*suzuki 800 hatch*

ok so pics will be coming soon but i got a suzuki 800 hatch from evworks in landsdale western australia.
it came with a ADC L91-4001, curtis controller (cringe) and the battery boxes already made up
also got the dc dc converter, throttle box etc, everything to do it is there except the batteries
batteries will be lead acid car batteries from machinery thats stopped working, they r free.

anyway this lead sled has a real birds nest and it hasnt taken long for me to realise im a little out of my depth.
so im gonna have to go thru every wire one at a time and figure everything out at the 12v level.
after that i will probably have to wire up the 120v stuff from scratch just to make sure i dont miss anything

any advise from people who have bought half conversions and from people in general would be helpful 










http://i71.photobucket.com/albums/i148/rainblade_2006/20140519_205018-1475973964_zps2295161e.jpg

http://i71.photobucket.com/albums/i148/rainblade_2006/20140519_203331780960865_zps60cbbf9c.jpg


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## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

I bought an old lead sled and did a restoration and lithium conversion. I did not even attempt to figure out the birds nest. I got the cutters out and gutted all the wiring and started fresh. There are probably some pics of the birds nest in the second link in my signature.


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## arklan (Dec 10, 2012)

saw the birds nest in your one, i think mines not as bad, iv traced a few things and im feeling much more confident that i can figure it out.
i found the wire for the alternator and the wire that went to the battery, so i was gonna hook the battery wire up as per usual and connect the dc-dc to the alternator wire.

had a battery connected up tonight and normal car battery charger connected to the alternator wire, had all the indicators, brake lights, head lights etc all working and the fan/hairdryer inside the car so it seems all the 12v stuff is working already.

the birds nest must be all the ev stuff so ill have another look tomorrow

theres plugs and stuff that arent connected to anything tho which makes me wonder, tho i know a couple of them like the radiator fan and switch which dont need to be doing anything now.


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## arklan (Dec 10, 2012)

ok so a few questions

1: my curtis controller has a three pin connection thing for the pot box but the pot box has 4 wires coming out (see picture)
also on the pot box is a thing sitting on top of it that clicks when the accelerator pedal is pressed a bit, like an on/off relay or something, whats up with this?









2: got an E meter or whatever u call it, it has heaps of wires coming out of it, like 6-7 wires and it also has this kind of plug which is kinda weird. any ideas what this plug is about?









3: so im thinking of where to put the controller on the shelf thats been provided. i was thinking to put it here with the wires going down the little hole where the engine mount steady goes through. the reason im thinking to put it here is that if i get in a crash the wires are in the middle and the rest of the shelf will protect the wires a little bit from getting sheered. what do u guys reckon? its pretty close to the engine steady tho so maybe its too close 









edit: so the first picture with that funny looking switch on top of the throttle box; one side of it is grounded to the car, so i hooked the battery in and put a multi meter on it. when the accelerator pedal is pressed even a small amount it clicks. but i think its busted because the multi meter records a 1v drop when its on, so it goes from 12.4 to 11.5 there abouts. no idea what it is for.

the second thing the emeter, its got 6 wires coming out of it and the 2 with that funny plug r twisted together so im guessing they r the sensing wires, evworks is gonna get me a pin out chart for it


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## arklan (Dec 10, 2012)

ok so more stuff checked out, more questions.
im gonna post the questions here before i google anything so that others who may be asking the same thing can see its been asked.

main question is about the contactor, it has 4 legs sticking out the 12v end which might actually be 2 joined together. theres a power diode going accross 2 of the legs and the other 2 legs have small wires going inside which im assuming is to energize the relay.
so i decided to give it a test, i have small 7ah 12v deep cycle battery from a security system that i stuck accross the 12v end on the 2 legs that have the wires going in. it sparked and shorted and the contactor didnt close or do anything so now im scratching my head.









in the box that the contactor came in were also these couple of pieces, a 250v relay and a big fat IC that has 4 legs coming out, kinda reminds me of a rectifier. the relay, the IC and the contactor were in a box with 5 8amp fuses all wired up together somehow, still scratching my head.

















ok so as far as i know, the way the contactor works is the positive comes from the pack to one of the hv contactor poles and then a wire from the other hv contactor pole goes to the controller.
a resister "shorts" accross the 2 hv poles of the contactor
the 12v side is connected to a switch like the ignition or whatever
and it doesnt really get much more complicated than that.
so why is there all this stuff connected to the contactor and why is there a diode accross the 12v side of the contactor?

edit: the big IC is a voltage regulator, it takes whatever the auxillery battery is making and puts out an isolated 15v (5 watts)
edit: just checked both polarities and still the contactor just shorts on the 12v side 
edit: spoke to evworks and he suggested taking the diode off, took that off and the contactor closes fine, still a little bit of sparking tho but not much


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## davidmillin (Dec 14, 2013)

Hi Arklan

A similar setup to what I'm working with so here goes:


> main question is about the contactor, it has 4 legs sticking out the 12v end which might actually be 2 joined together. theres a power diode going accross 2 of the legs and the other 2 legs have small wires going inside which im assuming is to energize the relay.





> ok so a few questions
> 
> 1: my curtis controller has a three pin connection thing for the pot box but the pot box has 4 wires coming out (see picture)
> also on the pot box is a thing sitting on top of it that clicks when the accelerator pedal is pressed a bit, like an on/off relay or something, whats up with th


The diode is there for coil spike suppression you connect 12volt power positive to the topmost leg opposite the banded end of the diode and 12volt negative (chassis earth to the lower leg) the 12volt positive comes from the key switch and passes through 2 of the pins on the pot box this is a potbox microswitch which you should hear clicking as you move the potbox lever it is a safety feature which disengages the main contactor if you remove your foot from the accelerator. the other 2 wires from the potbox plug into the lower 2 small pins on the controller they send the signal to the controller as to how much voltage to deliver to the motor they can be connected either way around.



> in the box that the contactor came in were also these couple of pieces, a 250v relay and a big fat IC that has 4 legs coming out, kinda reminds me of a rectifier. the relay, the IC and the contactor were in a box with 5 8amp fuses all wired up together somehow, still scratching my head.


The relay is a KSI relay when the accelerator is depressed as well as actuating the main contactor it also energises this relay sending a low current high voltage signal to the third (topmost small pin on the controller essentially turning the controller on. I'm not sure what the five fuses are for. my potbox has a 12 volt 10 amp in the line but not sure what the other 4 are for Vacuum pump? Power steering pump?

I have included my wiring diagram which may or may not be useful it shows how I have wired a PB6 Potbox and 1221 curtis controller.

Cheers David


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## arklan (Dec 10, 2012)

hey thanks a lot 
mine doesnt have power steering or a brake booster or anything
its just straight batteries controller motor
very basic 
im out of the country for next 2 weeks so I cant work on it :/
the diode on the contactor was shorting the contactor so I took it off and now it works fine
I have saved your wiring diagram to my phone so I can commit it to memory
thanks again


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## davidmillin (Dec 14, 2013)

No worries Arklan. I just took my conversion for its first drive and it seems to be working fine. Just as well otherwise this would be a note to say disregard everything I said I don't really know what I'm doing.


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## arklan (Dec 10, 2012)

ok so iv been thinking about an economizer idea for the main contactor

idea is to put a capacitor and small light bulb in parallel going to the 12v feed of the contactor

when the key is first applied the cap will very briefly allow the full power through before it gets full
the contactor closes in a split second anyway so it should be enough time
after that the contactor will get its power through the light bulb which would only allow a few hundred ma

edit to say I dont want to bother will the ksi relay opening and closing the contactor all the time
ill just put an inertia switch inline with the cap and light bulb so if anything happens the contactor will open that way
heaps simpler


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## davidmillin (Dec 14, 2013)

Hi Arklan



> edit to say I dont want to bother will the ksi relay opening and closing the contactor all the time
> ill just put an inertia switch inline with the cap and light bulb so if anything happens the contactor will open that way
> heaps simpler


It isn't the KSI relay that opens and closes the contactor the KSI relay needs to be there so the controller operates. It is the microswitch on the potbox that opens and closes the contactor and this can certainly be bypassed. In fact the previous owner of my conversion bypassed this microswitch when he had issues with a sticking contactor.



> ok so iv been thinking about an economizer idea for the main contactor
> 
> idea is to put a capacitor and small light bulb in parallel going to the 12v feed of the contactor
> 
> ...


An economiser is built into the mechanical design of some contactors they still need significant power to operate (about 1 amp) and once closed they draw less maybe 0.3 A to hold it closed. What you are describing will not work as an economiser the contactor will still require about an amp to overcome the springs built into it and your extra resistance will either draw more power used as light and heat(sort of an anti economiser) or else it will prevent the contactor from operating altogether.


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## arklan (Dec 10, 2012)

disclaimer: dont use this diagram yet i dont know if its good or not

ok so this is how i was thinking to wire the car. the filler cap came with a switch already in place, i can use this switch to run the 12v thru the contactor.
when the filler cap is open the contactor cant close, and the filler cap needs to be open when im charging so it takes care of that 

i might add a few things like lights or whatever later but at the moment this is what im working off.
also i didnt add the precharge resister to the picture because im not sure if u want to use a lightbulb or a resister yet.

i will just leave the precharge resister on all the time i dont think it will hurt the controller.
if its an issue ill just use the big red button as my precharge turn on switch
a small lightbulb or resister isnt gonna use up much power i dont think


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## davidmillin (Dec 14, 2013)

Hi Arklan

You look like you have the gist of it and this circuit should basically work. I don't know what the regulations state in West Australia so this is something you could look into. In New Zealand there is about 23 pages of requirements covering everything from High Voltage cable colour (orange) to battery box design to warning lights and stickers. These are the points I would make regarding your circuit

1 You need traction pack voltage going to the KSI pin of your controller this switches it on

2 You should connect the charger and hair dryer on the other side of the main fuse this means if either of them develop a fault the fuse will blow rather than a fire from traction pack voltage going through the charger or hair dryer

3 You need some method of charging your 12 volt battery whether it is a DC DC converter or an alternator driven off the motor tailshaft. Otherwise you could find yourself stranded when using lights, wipers, or other accessories.

4 You can use either a resistor or a lightbulb across the main contactor to precharge. using the big red button to prevent the circuit being live all the time will also work but you do need to make sure you engage the big red button first then wait then the main contactor if you should do it the other way around you could weld the contacts of the big red button together. The lightbulb/resistor uses a very small amount of power and should definitely be used to protect your contactor and to a lesser extent your controller.

5 The switch on the fuel flap is a great idea and is a requirement in the New Zealand standards. You don't want to be driving down the road towing your charger behind you.

6 The shunt is normally on the negative leg of the traction circuit.

7 It isn't a bad idea to have main fuses on both the positive and negative ends of your traction circuit as close as practical to the battery. Also your charger and hair dryer should be independently fused and they can use much smaller and cheaper to replace fuses say something about 30A compared to about 500A for the main traction circuit.

Cheers David


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## arklan (Dec 10, 2012)

ok so i dont have to remodel the picture too much iv left the shunt where it is tho i dont see it makes any difference?
have i got the wire from the pack to the ksi pin correct?

edit: my motor is a x91 4001 and it has 2 little speaker wires coming out, been suggested these could be brush wear indicator wires? any ideas?


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## davidmillin (Dec 14, 2013)

> ok so i dont have to remodel the picture too much iv left the shunt where it is tho i dont see it makes any difference?
> have i got the wire from the pack to the ksi pin correct?


Hi Arklan

some shunts are on the positive leg just check the documentation on your ammeter or google the datasheet if you don't have it and if it stipulates it should be on the most negative point as mine does then put it there. otherwise I guess it doesn't matter. The wire from the pack to the KSI pin looks correct although I have only seen them using a key driven relay in that line and this is how mine was previously wired and how mine currently is. However I see no difference between using a ksi relay in this case or not as the main contactor seems to be doing that job and is driven off the key switch so I don't understand why it is necessary. I have emailed curtis to see if they can shed any light on this and will let you know when I receive a reply.

I think those wires are motor temperature sensor wires. I haven't connected mine.

Cheers
David


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## davidmillin (Dec 14, 2013)

Ok so it looks like you can connect the KSI pin as you've drawn it without a relay but it could drain your battery if only isolated at the main contactor by going through the precharge resistor/lightbulb. it is also little harder on your controller to not have it switched by a relay and is a bit more dangerous as with the key switched off the car could jump forward powered by the capacitors if the accelerator was pressed. I've decided I will continue to use mine.


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## arklan (Dec 10, 2012)

so like this?

edit to ask: in what way would it be harder on the controller?


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## davidmillin (Dec 14, 2013)

> so like this?
> 
> edit to ask: in what way would it be harder on the controller?


Like in one of the following 2 diagrams. The control circuit for the KSI relay is powered from the key input in parallel to the control circuit for the main contactor it can be run through the potbox microswitch as in the second diagram or not. I'm not an expert on controllers but my understanding is not having the KSI relay means that when precharging current is flowing not just to the capacitors in the power side of the controller but also to the logic side of the controller through the KSI pin. This increased power demand causes a greater than normal voltage drop between the 2 sides of the main contactor and when the contactor closes it stresses your components more as more power flows in to alleviate that voltage drop.


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## arklan (Dec 10, 2012)

ok so the pb6 has a little switch on it that im gonna run the wire to
so it connects whenever the throttle is pressed

do u know how much dc converters usually draw when they r on but just sitting pretty with the battery?
from what I know they dont draw 350 watts continuous, thats just how much they can go up to
so the more charged my battery is the less it should pull out of my traction pack
mine has 2 13.8v wires and 3 120v wires, not the other way around like I thought
so I'm just gonna join the activating wire and positive wire together and put it on the b+ of the controller, so it will be on when the car is on, and not being a burden to the traction pack at any other time


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## davidmillin (Dec 14, 2013)

> do u know how much dc converters usually draw when they r on but just sitting pretty with the battery?
> from what I know they dont draw 350 watts continuous, thats just how much they can go up to
> so the more charged my battery is the less it should pull out of my traction pack
> mine has 2 13.8v wires and 3 120v wires, not the other way around like I thought
> so I'm just gonna join the activating wire and positive wire together and put it on the b+ of the controller, so it will be on when the car is on, and not being a burden to the traction pack at any other time


 Hi Arklan

You are correct a 350W DC DC converter if that is what yours is rated at will only draw 350W when the battery needs charging and will taper off as the battery approaches full charge I believe the 13.8V output wires are positive and negative to the 12V battery and the other 3 are 120V input positive, input negative, and frame ground(not used). You may need a diode or a relay on the 12v output positive my threads DC DC fun and do I need a diode on a DC DC converter in technical discussion cover this. And just be aware that connecting the DC DC converter positive input to B+ on the controller or the output of the main contactor means that precharge is being used by the converter as well as the controller and a number of people advise against this. It is a lot simpler though.

Cheers David


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## arklan (Dec 10, 2012)

i will connect the positive of the dc converter before the contactor so it gets power as soon as i turn on the key, but the activation wire will be the b+ so then it isnt drawing from the precharge so much 

im going to have one of those flexible solar panels stuck to the roof, rated 100w so this should take care of nearly everything except head lights.
im just wondering how much the dc converter draws and if its worth it to put a relay on that the dc converter only turns on when the 12v battery gets low

i am checking the 2 threads u mentioned as soon as i hit submit


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## davidmillin (Dec 14, 2013)

> im just wondering how much the dc converter draws and if its worth it to put a relay on that the dc converter only turns on when the 12v battery gets low


It's up to you my understanding is that the power drawn is quite low when the battery doesn't need much charging say 100W compared to say 15KW being used by the motor and your accessories will work a bit better (lights a little brighter, wipers a bit faster through the additional voltage from charging but there is a saving to be had through having the dc dc converter able to be switched off especially if you are only using it for short trips and then parking it somewhere sunny. Any relay you use will have to be rated for pack voltage so that makes it a little more expensive.


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## arklan (Dec 10, 2012)

ok so im wiring up the emeter now and it seems the emeter earths to both the traction pack and the 12v from the same pin/wire
is this right? seems kinda dodge to me


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## davidmillin (Dec 14, 2013)

> ok so im wiring up the emeter now and it seems the emeter earths to both the traction pack and the 12v from the same pin/wire
> is this right? seems kinda dodge to me


Hi Arklan

Yes that is what the instructions for that particular emeter say but you don't want your traction pack connected to the vehicle chassis so you need to use a secondary 12V battery just for the emeter or another dc dc converter. Note a DC DC converter in this case can be a solid state component of about 5W rather than anything like the dc dc converter you currently have. It is much easier when your instrumentation is internally isolated.

Cheers David


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## arklan (Dec 10, 2012)

ahhhh! i have one of those!
it is a 5w dc dc converter that takes 9-36v and puts out 15v
thanks 
also instead of using a prescaler can i just run the wire that measures the volts down to the pack so it just measures the first 3 batteries for 36v? the batteries should all be the same anyway so this seems pretty logical in my mind, much simpler than getting a prescaler

also iv found the precharge resister and im in the process of putting that on
its 2 resisters in series, 5w 1.2kj and 5w 3.9kj
everything iv read says this is not enough watts and too many ohms
this will make the precharge take a pretty long time right?
can u suggest a good lightbulb i could use? 
if i use a normal car lightbulb it will go bang im pretty sure


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## davidmillin (Dec 14, 2013)

> ahhhh! i have one of those!
> it is a 5w dc dc converter that takes 9-36v and puts out 15v
> thanks
> also instead of using a prescaler can i just run the wire that measures the volts down to the pack so it just measures the first 3 batteries for 36v? the batteries should all be the same anyway so this seems pretty logical in my mind, much simpler than getting a prescaler


Great news about the converter. You can dispense with the prescaler and just connect to 3 batteries. The drawbacks to this are:

1 By having a wire partway through your pack you are introducing a parasitic load that could unbalance your pack although as it is only a sense wire for voltage and lead acid is a bit more forgiving than lithium it is probably not a major

2 if any battery is significantly different to the others the voltmeter will be giving you a false indication ie a poor performing battery in your measured group of 3 will be suggesting a overall voltage lower than actual or a poor performing battery outside of your measured group of 3 will suggest a higher voltage than actual. If you choose to do this I would suggest regularly checking individual battery voltages with a multimeter to ensure they are operating equivalently and I am assuming they are all the same age and capacity.



> also iv found the precharge resister and im in the process of putting that on
> its 2 resisters in series, 5w 1.2kj and 5w 3.9kj
> everything iv read says this is not enough watts and too many ohms
> this will make the precharge take a pretty long time right?
> ...


Curtis recommends a 25W 750 ohm resistor. Some people feel this makes precharge a bit long (maybe 20 seconds) and you can make do with a lower resistance one say 100 ohms. If you choose a lightbulb instead then a 240V household bulb has an initial resistance of around 65 ohms quickly rising to 880 ohms as it heats up which will precharge the controller quickly you just need to mount it so it doesn't smash.

Hope this helps
David


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## arklan (Dec 10, 2012)

ok so last question, for ease of installation i want to run the hv+ wire directly to the motor and then from the motor back up to b+ on the controller
so the join would be on the motor instead of the controller, any problems with this?

edit: ur talking about an incandescent or fluro?


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## davidmillin (Dec 14, 2013)

> ok so last question, for ease of installation i want to run the hv+ wire directly to the motor and then from the motor back up to b+ on the controller
> so the join would be on the motor instead of the controller, any problems with this?
> 
> edit: ur talking about an incandescent or fluro?


I can't see any problem with wiring it that way. I was talking about an incandescent light bulb

Cheers
David


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## arklan (Dec 10, 2012)

couple of pics of my birds nest
ended up using a piece of copper flatbar to go from the contactor to the controller
gonna have to get a shroud gor all of this now


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## arklan (Dec 10, 2012)

ok so tonight i finally had everything finished enough to test it.
i only have 4 car batteries so i tried it with that, im using a 150watt lightbulb as my precharge resister and it didnt light up which im pretty sure is because there wasnt enough voltage.
the hair dryer turned on fine tho 
anyway turned the key so the contactor turned on, motor didnt even burp.
im pretty sure curtis controllers need a minimum of 72v but i thought id try it with 48 just to see.

tomorrow im gonna pinch the battery out of my dads car and my car and put it in to get me to 72v and see what happens


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## davidmillin (Dec 14, 2013)

> ok so tonight i finally had everything finished enough to test it.
> i only have 4 car batteries so i tried it with that, im using a 150watt lightbulb as my precharge resister and it didnt light up which im pretty sure is because there wasnt enough voltage.
> the hair dryer turned on fine tho
> anyway turned the key so the contactor turned on, motor didnt even burp.
> ...


Yeah that's probably why the 1231C is designed for 72-144 volts I think and from memory low voltage cutoff is about 63 volts (72 volt system discharged to about 10.5 volts per 12V battery) so you may need to find 2 rather than 1 more batteries. One of the things that caught me out when I was testing my system out was I hadn't pressed on the accelerator enough and so I was trying to find the loose or incorrect connection when in fact both the contactor and KSI relay were engaged and I only needed to move the potbox lever and the motor stated up.

Cheers David


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## davidmillin (Dec 14, 2013)

Sorry I reread your post and see you were going to get 2 more rather than just 1 more batteries. Also with the precharge use a multimeter across the the controller terminals (B+ and B-) and check it is coming up to full pack voltage and how long it takes.


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## arklan (Dec 10, 2012)

ok so now im working on the interior while I wait for some more batteries
the car is blue so I picked up some blue synthetic grass from work
the oem floor vinyl is falling apart and looks hideous anyway so some brand new stuff is the go


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## arklan (Dec 10, 2012)

more pictures


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## arklan (Dec 10, 2012)

just connected it up with 8 lead acids 96v and still nothing
the hair dryer comes on but the precharge lightbulb doesnt
the contactor closes without arcing (that i can see) but the motor doesnt spin, even when the pedal is fully pressed :'(

going to try ruling a few things out like a faulty reed switch on the pb6 etc but i think in the end iv just got a normal curtis controller, meaning not working


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## davidmillin (Dec 14, 2013)

Check the KSI relay is closing you should be able to hear it particularly if you disconnect the main contactor and bypass the relay if need be to see if the motor starts to run. Have you run the motor by just putting 12volts directly across it?


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## arklan (Dec 10, 2012)

ok so I ran the wire from the ksi pin to battery positive and the runs fine - in reverse xD
so to make it go the correct way im guessing I can just swap around the + and - on the battery


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

arklan said:


> ok so I ran the wire from the ksi pin to battery positive and the runs fine - in reverse xD
> so to make it go the correct way im guessing I can just swap around the + and - on the battery


NO. Don't do that.  

I just now took a look at this thread. Looks like a Curtis and a series motor. You'll damage the electronics if you reverse the input polarity. And reversing the polarity on a series motor won't reverse the direction anyways. Wait until these guys walk you thru it.


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## arklan (Dec 10, 2012)

no i meant, swapping the wires around on the motor not putting reverse polarity on the curtis :/
anyway i swapped the wires around on the motor and still drives in reverse
i also swapped the wires from the a2 side to the a1 side and still drives in reverse


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

arklan said:


> no i meant, swapping the wires around on the motor not putting reverse polarity on the curtis :/
> anyway i swapped the wires around on the motor and still drives in reverse
> i also swapped the wires from the a2 side to the a1 side and still drives in reverse


To reverse the rotation of a series wound motor, you must reverse the polarity of the field in respect to the armature or vice verse, reverse the armature polarity with respect to the field.

Caution. Many series motors have an advance of the brushes favoring one direction of rotation. But not all do. If a motor is advanced, reversing rotation will cause arcing on the commutator and possible damage. You should check this before using the motor in reverse at heavy loads. It would be o.k. for limited unloaded testing.


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## arklan (Dec 10, 2012)

ok so instead of having one of the connections on a1 and the other on f1
i would put it a1+ and f2- and then run a wire from f1 to a2 right?

i bought this car with this motor already in the car, all i had to do was connect all the wires and find some batteries and it was allegedly put together in a proper ev shop so im hoping it will be ok, its a x91 4001

ill go in to the shop tomorrow and see what they reckon


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

arklan said:


> ok so instead of having one of the connections on a1 and the other on f1
> i would put it a1+ and f2- and then run a wire from f1 to a2 right?
> 
> i bought this car with this motor already in the car, all i had to do was connect all the wires and find some batteries and it was allegedly put together in a proper ev shop so im hoping it will be ok, its a x91 4001
> ...


Well, that shop had it wired to run backwards, so what they reckon may not be right. Here is the drawing which has the rotation connections: http://www.kta-ev.com/v/vspfiles/assets/images/x91-4001_o-rev_ak.pdf I do not see any notation of a favored rotation direction on the drawing or specifications. However, I doubt that motor will commutate successfully at 100+ volts without an advance. Good luck.

edit: I did a google and found a couple of notes.




> Products 31 - 40 of 83 - Electric Vehicles of Washingtion : All Products - Electric _Motors Motor_ ... with a double ended shaft and is pre-drilled to allow for _brush advance_ in either ... model A00-4009, _X91_-_4001_, and L91-4003 _Advanced_ DC _motors_.





> _Advanced_ D.C._Motors X91_-_4001_, ￥181,890. _Advanced_ ... _Brush_ Timing: Factory set for counter clockwise rotation (as viewed from the drive end) Voltage: Up to ...


So beware


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## arklan (Dec 10, 2012)

shop says its advanced backwards and its fine
they also showed me how to check for myself


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## arklan (Dec 10, 2012)

controller is curtis 1231*b 
*im wondering how many cells I can put in
its a 120v system with 350w chennic dc converter
38 cells would seem to be the normal amount
charged to 4.2v each that brings it to 159v
can the controller and dc converter handle thst? the curtis controller is from the days before lithium so im just wondering how many cells I can put in
reason I ask is instead of having 38 4.2v cells id put in 45 and charge to 3.55
what is the max voltage the controler can handle?


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## davidmillin (Dec 14, 2013)

> controller is curtis 1231*b
> *im wondering how many cells I can put in
> its a 120v system with 350w chennic dc converter
> 38 cells would seem to be the normal amount
> ...


Hi Arklan

I've been hunting around on the net but can't find a listing for a 1231B I've found a type of 1231c rated at 72-120V, a 1221c at 72-120V, and a 1221B not suitable for road use at 80V max. Also there is a type of 1231C that handles 96-144V. Here is link for info and some specs http://www.evsource.com/datasheets/curtis/Curtis_manual.pdf What info I have gleaned says you shouldn't exceed the recommended maximum nominal voltage or you might start blowing up capacitors in the controller. So if your system is rated at 72-120 volts don't go higher than 120V nominal or 132 fully charged so if you are using lithium cells with a maximum charge of 4.2 volts that is 31 cells if you only charge to 4.1 volts you could maybe fit 32. Note it is only Lithium manganese and lithium cobalt and maybe a couple of other chemistries that can be charged to 4.2 volts per cell. The most commonly used electric vehicle battery chemistry Lithium Iron Phosphate(LiFePO4) has a maximum working voltage of 3.33 Volts per cell so you may be able to fit up to 40 of these cells ensuring you do not charge above 132V total. Obviously if your controller can in fact handle up to 144 volts you could fit a few more cells in but given that the controller is aging and it could fail near the high voltage limit it may be prudent to not push it to it's limits. Maybe someone who is familiar with your controller may be able to give you a better answer.

Cheers
David


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## arklan (Dec 10, 2012)

so I backed it out of the shed today and out to the road which is a 50 metre stretch at a grade of about 30-35 degrees
got to the street and drove down to the culdesac and back, a 300metre trip and then down the driveway aagainand in to the shed
as it got to half in the shed half out it blew the ignition coil fuse
im not sure if its blowing because the 7ah auxillery battery is getting charged at 35amp or if theres a short or what
the ignition coil fuse is a 20amp one
so I put another 20 amp one in and it blew immediately
ill go through it all tonight but atleast its driving now 
8 12v car batteries for 96v nom

I think the brakes r hanging on a bit though because it got to 100amps doing 30kph starting off in 3rd
will check that out tonight too


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## davidmillin (Dec 14, 2013)

Is the ignition coil circuit being used as the 12V feed to main contactor, KSI relay, inertia switch etc. If so check all your connections I had the same fuse blow and going through my system I needed to tighten up where the 12V input to the KSI relay was and this took care of it. Congratulations on getting your car running

Cheers
David


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## arklan (Dec 10, 2012)

checked it out and its the dc converter
so im gonna use a car battery instead of a little security system battery to run the auxilleries, and i also have some 40amp fuses on the way

iv also got a little piezo buzzer coming which ill hook up to the accessory position on the key, the reed switch in the fuel cap will be the on/off for it
if the fuel cap is open and i turn the key ill get a noisey buzzer telling me not to drive off while the car is plugged in 
it will waste less energy than running the wire for the contactor all the way to the back of my car

ok so my e-meter is wired up but since im gonna get lithiums i need a prescaler. dont want to do the earlier plan of hooking it up to just a few batteries coz that will unbalance them.
so im thinking, since i need a prescaler which will cost a touch over $100
i should just get a fuel gauge driver instead which will also cost a touch over $100
http://www.evworks.com.au/index.php?product=INS-ZEVA-FGD11
i get the benefit of using an original part of the car which makes it less "space shuttle" looking
i cant see the e-meter doing anything that the fuel gauge driver cant do
http://www.evworks.com.au/index.php?product=INS-TBS-PRO

thoughts?


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## davidmillin (Dec 14, 2013)

Hi Arklan

good to hear you got the fuse blowing sorted. I like the fuel gauge driver as instrumentation and the fuel gauge driver plus even more so although if your car has no rev counter or if it was a 3 cylinder original engine the fuel gauge driver plus is not so useful to you. I think although you need to run a wire between then contactor wire and the fuel flap it is a safer solution than a buzzer it ensures the car cannot be driven while plugged in. You can also use car accessories while charging without listening to buzzing.


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## arklan (Dec 10, 2012)

i was thinking to sell my 144v charger to make funds for a 120v charger but have just discovered my curtis controller is the 144v max one not the 120v max one 
so im just gonna put some extra batteries in there


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## arklan (Dec 10, 2012)

more pics of the interior
i have no idea how evworks have that battery box behind the seat set up
the dimensions of it are too wide and not tall enough for any prismatic cell
even if laid on their side


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## arklan (Dec 10, 2012)

so iv got a 176v charger 22amps and a 165v charger 18 amps

is there any reason i cant run them both at the same time?

its 144v nominal pack with 48cells


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## davidmillin (Dec 14, 2013)

Hi Arklan

I suspect you can't do this. Firstly unless you are running off separate phases you could cook your household wiring normal household outlets are rated at 10A and each charger looks like it would draw about 15A input so together you would be tripping circuit breakers. Secondly are your chargers isolated or non isolated if they are non isolated you create a short circuit condition. Thirdly I have looked into running isolated switchmode power supplies in series and this can be done provided output diodes are in place to prevent one feeding into another if one is slower to start up The information I have come across suggests parallel connection which is what you would be looking to do unless you had a 300V pack is a no no I don't recall the reason why though. Perhaps someone else can give a more definitive answer (I'm a gardener not an electrical engineer).

Cheers David


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## arklan (Dec 10, 2012)

ok so this is the engine bay now, much tidier and with an acrylic cover to stop people from doing what comes naturally, being stupid 

gotta get some high voltage stickers etc but apart from that the engine bay is complete 

with the 2 chargers id be running them in parallel so id really need to find more info on this, i dont want to cook any of the chargers
that said they would be getting power from the batteries so i dont think it would damage anything :/
hope not anyway


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## arklan (Dec 10, 2012)

batteries will arrive in fremantle on monday 25th aug
now begins all the rigmarole of getting them cleared


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## arklan (Dec 10, 2012)

batteries arrived and r in the back of my 4wd !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

you can see from the pictures what kind of batteries they r


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## arklan (Dec 10, 2012)

other than a short somewhere and a lose connection, what can cause the snap crackle pop sound?

iv connected 48 batteries to the car which come in at 173v
a little on the high side for a 144v system but they r all resting on 3.6v because they were top balanced

when i pushed the big red button to make the connection and start the car, it made a snap noise so i turned it off real quick
its made the snap noise a couple of times which makes me feel uncomfortable (it never did that with the 8 lead acids i was testing with)
so i just left it on, then turned the key to start the car and starting making a crackling noise that sounds like its coming from the battery pack area

is it being cause by too high voltage?


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## arklan (Dec 10, 2012)

edit to say that iv traced it down to the motor, it is definatly the motor that is grounding
evworks mentioned something about a carbon build up, will ask them tomorrow


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## arklan (Dec 10, 2012)

thought id update this thread to say the car is driving
been taking it to work for a week now and it sure is an experience
seems to sit between 100 to 200 amps during normal cruising at about 70kph which I thought was a bit high but atleast its working 

got my dad on the case and found the gearbox had no oil
the castle nuts that hold the front hubs on were missing
rear right brake drum needs machining

and also I lost the keys :'( searched everywhere and cant find so I was using a paperclip for a while
now have a ride on mower key barrel which works fantastic until I find the keys and plug the original barrel back in
I also need that key to open the fuel cap

the zeva pre charge controller and zeva fuel gauge driver are both not working properly and will need nutting out
I may have to refund the precharge controller as it isnt doing anything different to the 150w lightbulb I had hooked up and cost $135 less

reverse and first r super ultra uber extra very sensitive

accelloration is similar to original petrol engine ie: slower than everyone else
shifting without the clutch is like taking an enema

ok I think thats it


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## poprock (Apr 29, 2010)

I find it enjoyable not having to use the clutch. Am I reading correctly that the castillated nuts you are referring to are the front stub axle nuts?. If that was the case then only the caliper bolts were keeping the wheels on. As pauline hanson said "please explain ? "


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## arklan (Dec 10, 2012)

that is correct
when i got the car the guy who worked on it said to check the nuts on the wheels coz he didnt want anything bad to happen to me, i took that to mean the wheel nuts which were loose, i didnt think to check the castle nuts
when my dad revealed it i was like holy fk


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## arklan (Dec 10, 2012)

shannons have insured it for 12k

i was told on the phone when ringing up for quotes that id have to take it down to burswood to get them to inspect it
took it down on monday and it was the longest run iv ever done in it, they were kind enough to let me charge for half an hour (i brought an extension cord ) 
so the guy had a quick look at it and said he was happy to insure for 12k coz he knows how expensive this stuff can be

driving back up the freeway there were a lot of crazy people but the hatch made it back right as the fuel gauge went to empty (80% dod) so it was a good run

now all i need is to have a crash in it and shannons make up some excuse so they dont have to pay


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## arklan (Dec 10, 2012)

ok so i thought i should post something about this incase something bad happens

i noticed earlier last week that the car is not as quick as it once was, i have to press the pedal more and more to get the same acceleration.
when im gaining speed, the power tends to surge a bit aswell, sometimes sitting on 200amps sometimes 250 and it gets a little jerky
nothing like driving on a gravel road but enough to make stuff fall off the dash and on to the floor
the car doesnt like using more than 200 amps, its pretty smooth below that number
when i first got it, it was very smooth and would ramp up to 400 amps no problem when taking off in 4th gear

i took it for its longest drive yesterday of 74km to my grandads farm, and then charged it on the genset for the drive back, it sat on about 170-180 amps the whole time, travelling at about 90kph (55mph)

the batteries werent warm or anything like that
im thinking the pot box maybe? its a curtis 1231c, any advise greatly appreciated


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## arklan (Dec 10, 2012)

ok so on my way to work this morning which is a 6.6km drive
i came out of a roundabout and the car had a "fail full on"
so i pressed the big red button to stop and then pulled over
after a minute i tried the car again,
turned the key and as soon as the contactor went click it did a burnout
lucky it was in gear or couldv oversped the motor
i had my hand over the red button ready
The volt and amp guages never moved
if i have to replace the controller ill probably get a soliton, there is no better when it comes to quality but damn
id really hate to have to fork out for that
im hoping its the pot box but will find out later, its on the side of the road about 2km out from my house, hopefully someone will torch it so i can get the insurance money


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

Sounds like controller.


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## arklan (Dec 10, 2012)

im crying invisible tears right now
rip u r right, ev works let me borrow another pot box, i tried it and the car doesnt even burp or anything :'(
they r gonna let me borrow another cuntis controller to troubleshoot which is nice of them, then it will probably be a soliton or zilla


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## arklan (Dec 10, 2012)

so i wanted a soliton1 but a zilla 1khv came up at the right price so i got that instead
been banging my head against the wall trying to make it fit all afternoon
the lugs it has are a fair bit thicker than the lugs the curtis has but they r also closer together
if i put a bolt through the B+ lug the head almost touches the M+
these things r sposed to handle 300+ volts, seems a bit off to me but ill keep puttering

after messing around with figuring out how to mount it and realising i was a bit out of my depth, i put the curtis back in so that i could go to the shop tomorrow and get some stuff.
revving it up produces crackling sounds that kinda sounds like its coming from the motor
im banging my head against the desk at the moment, im kinda over it
ill go back out and have another go in a bit


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## Vhclbldr (Feb 8, 2014)

Sorry to hear about your Curtis curse. I sincerely hope the motor has survived the controller issues. Time for new brushes, possibly?


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## arklan (Dec 10, 2012)

so ran with the zilla for a week and then sunday (today) decided to pull the middle pack out and make a proper box for them
they had just been sitting in a tray so if i had a roll over they probably wouldv fallen out
making sure the car meets the requirements so my insurance money isnt wasted

anyway after putting everything back in the car wont start
so after running a multimeter over everything im getting some bizarre readings
from + to - i get 0.01v
halfway up the middle pack to + i get 15v
end of the middle pack to + i get 54v
accross the 2 sides of the fuse that sits between the 2 packs i get 149v
middle fuse to + i get 60v
middle fuse to - i get 54v again

stayed up to 130am so i could take it to work tomorrow and now this
good thing my dad is around

edit: its the fuse, when i put alligator clips accross the fuse the voltage reads 168 like its supposed to, the fuse looks perfectly fine, its really weird


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