# [EVDL] TS LFP 160AHA experience update



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Hi EVerybody

A few months ago I replaced the Tojan pack in my Mazda B2000 with 45 
160Ah Thunderskys, for a nominal 144 volts and an end of charge 
voltage of ~180 which would not kill the Raptor 600 controller. The 
Mazda has a 9" ADC. It was converted by Ian Hamilton a few years ago. 
I've been cautious with the new pack while I learn about the 
peculiarities of charging Li-ion cells, and have mostly been using the 
truck for a short commute. The pack is soon to go into a 2006 Scion 
Xb that Randy Holmquist has kindly agreed to convert for me, though 
his shop has been overly busy lately making Mite-E Trucks. Hopefully, 
it will be ready in time for VEVA's Rev show in June. 

Last night I bit the bullet and drove out to the airport and back in 
the Mazda. For me this is the holy grail of EV usability in Edmonton. 
If I can get to the airport to pick people up and get back on 
battery alone, then I don't really need a gas car in Edmonton.

I charged up the pack (3rd time this week) and found that the cells 
were much close than they had been after 2 weeks of inaction last 
month. On the way there, about 1/4 city and 3/4 highway, I did not 
baby the truck, but tried to keep up with traffic without letting the 
pack sag too low. Starting out the voltage was about 150 under 
minimal load, 137-140 under load of up to 200 amps or so, which is all 
that is required to accelerate the now light-weight truck at a decent 
pull. Which is to say, it accelerates about like a prudent driver 
would accelerate a small car when he was not trying to prove anything.

Getting from 90km/h to 110 was not as easy as it would be in that 
small gas car, but I was not embarrassed by its performance, nor was I 
the slowest vehicle on the road. I'm sure you get the picture. I 
found the voltage dropping off a bit on the slight uphill grades that 
one would not notice in a gas car, and let the truck slow down a bit 
if it looked like it would take too much to keep it at 110. The 
voltage never went below 133, and I did not have to slow down to less 
than 100. Most people generally drive their big pickups and SUVs at 
120-130Km/h on that highway, (that's about 80 of your Earth mph) but 
nobody flipped me the bird, so I was doing ok.

I made it to the airport with no problem, and stopped at a well-lit 
gas station to check the pack for hot cells. Some of the 
interconnects were warm to the touch, but nothing was hot; I was not 
surprised at the warm connectors since I had been pulling more than 
150 amps for half an hour and the pack is pretty well insulated. I 
put the lid back on and headed back, though without the confidence I 
had when starting out, since the emeter said -46Ah and I had never 
drawn the pack down less than -90. Oh well, nothing for it now. Full 
speed ahead! Approaching Old Strathcona I started to get confident 
again. There was no appreciable change in performance. The pack was 
still putting out whatever I needed and the voltage sag was not any 
worse. The pack would jump up to 147 when I stopped, not quite as high 
as when I started out but heck I was down 85Ah and she was still going 
strong.

The big test came climbing the hill out of the river valley. It was a 
bit anti-climatic, actually, because there was still no loss of 
performance and she took the steep hill with no more strain than she 
ever does. Wow. Here I am gliding into the parkade with -96Ah on the 
emeter and 63km (39 Earth miles) on the trip meter. That's the 
farthest I have ever gone in an EV on one charge, except in an EV-1.

I pulled into my spot and quickly flipped back the cover on the pack 
to see how the cells had fared. With the cab heater on full blast 
giving me a 13 amp draw, I checked each cell. Remarkably, all the 
cells were within a hair of 3.28 volts, despite the apparent imbalance 
I have been finding as the cells approach full charge. HooHoo! 
THAT'S what I'm talkin about!

I hooked up the PFC 50 and let the Watt Fairy do her magic overnight.


Mike Hoskinson
EV grinning in the Frozen North.


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

<evGrin> Congrats. </evGrin> I can't wait for lithium to get a little cheaper.


>and stopped at a well-lit gas station to check the pack for hot cells

But....... you did have to stop at a gas station ;-)

Brian





> Michael Hoskinson <[email protected]> wrote:
> > Hi EVerybody
> >
> > A few months ago I replaced the Tojan pack in my Mazda B2000 with 45
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Are you using a BMS for your TS 160's? If so, may I ask what?
Peri

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Brian Pikkula" <[email protected]>
To: <[email protected]>; "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" 
<[email protected]>
Sent: 05 April, 2008 4:39 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] TS LFP 160AHA experience update


> <evGrin> Congrats. </evGrin> I can't wait for lithium to get a little 
> cheaper.
>
>
>>and stopped at a well-lit gas station to check the pack for hot cells
>
> But....... you did have to stop at a gas station ;-)
>
> Brian
>
>
>
>


> Michael Hoskinson <[email protected]> wrote:
> >> Hi EVerybody
> >>
> >> A few months ago I replaced the Tojan pack in my Mazda B2000 with 45
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

What a great story. Just like a "real" car huh? Imagine what the pack could=
do in a Saturn or other aerodynamic car. =




Rich A.
Maryland
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/371.html
_________________________________________________________________
Pack up or back up=96use SkyDrive to transfer files or keep extra copies. L=
earn how.
hthttp://www.windowslive.com/skydrive/overview.html?ocid=3DTXT_TAGLM_WL_Ref=
resh_skydrive_packup_042008
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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Mike;

Will you share cost, weight, and source of this pack ?

Thanks;
Dennis 

-----Original Message-----
From: Michael Hoskinson [mailto:[email protected]] 
Sent: Saturday, April 05, 2008 1:36 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: [EVDL] TS LFP 160AHA experience update

Hi EVerybody

A few months ago I replaced the Tojan pack in my Mazda B2000 with 45
160Ah Thunderskys, for a nominal 144 volts and an end of charge voltage
of ~180 which would not kill the Raptor 600 controller. The Mazda has a
9" ADC. It was converted by Ian Hamilton a few years ago. 
I've been cautious with the new pack while I learn about the
peculiarities of charging Li-ion cells, and have mostly been using the
truck for a short commute. The pack is soon to go into a 2006 Scion Xb
that Randy Holmquist has kindly agreed to convert for me, though his
shop has been overly busy lately making Mite-E Trucks. Hopefully, it
will be ready in time for VEVA's Rev show in June. 

Last night I bit the bullet and drove out to the airport and back in the
Mazda. For me this is the holy grail of EV usability in Edmonton. 
If I can get to the airport to pick people up and get back on battery
alone, then I don't really need a gas car in Edmonton.

I charged up the pack (3rd time this week) and found that the cells were
much close than they had been after 2 weeks of inaction last month. On
the way there, about 1/4 city and 3/4 highway, I did not baby the truck,
but tried to keep up with traffic without letting the pack sag too low.
Starting out the voltage was about 150 under minimal load, 137-140 under
load of up to 200 amps or so, which is all that is required to
accelerate the now light-weight truck at a decent pull. Which is to
say, it accelerates about like a prudent driver would accelerate a small
car when he was not trying to prove anything.

Getting from 90km/h to 110 was not as easy as it would be in that small
gas car, but I was not embarrassed by its performance, nor was I the
slowest vehicle on the road. I'm sure you get the picture. I found the
voltage dropping off a bit on the slight uphill grades that one would
not notice in a gas car, and let the truck slow down a bit if it looked
like it would take too much to keep it at 110. The voltage never went
below 133, and I did not have to slow down to less than 100. Most people
generally drive their big pickups and SUVs at 120-130Km/h on that
highway, (that's about 80 of your Earth mph) but nobody flipped me the
bird, so I was doing ok.

I made it to the airport with no problem, and stopped at a well-lit gas
station to check the pack for hot cells. Some of the interconnects were
warm to the touch, but nothing was hot; I was not surprised at the warm
connectors since I had been pulling more than 150 amps for half an hour
and the pack is pretty well insulated. I put the lid back on and headed
back, though without the confidence I had when starting out, since the
emeter said -46Ah and I had never drawn the pack down less than -90. Oh
well, nothing for it now. Full speed ahead! Approaching Old Strathcona
I started to get confident again. There was no appreciable change in
performance. The pack was still putting out whatever I needed and the
voltage sag was not any worse. The pack would jump up to 147 when I
stopped, not quite as high as when I started out but heck I was down
85Ah and she was still going strong.

The big test came climbing the hill out of the river valley. It was a
bit anti-climatic, actually, because there was still no loss of
performance and she took the steep hill with no more strain than she
ever does. Wow. Here I am gliding into the parkade with -96Ah on the
emeter and 63km (39 Earth miles) on the trip meter. That's the farthest
I have ever gone in an EV on one charge, except in an EV-1.

I pulled into my spot and quickly flipped back the cover on the pack to
see how the cells had fared. With the cab heater on full blast giving me
a 13 amp draw, I checked each cell. Remarkably, all the cells were
within a hair of 3.28 volts, despite the apparent imbalance 
I have been finding as the cells approach full charge. HooHoo! 
THAT'S what I'm talkin about!

I hooked up the PFC 50 and let the Watt Fairy do her magic overnight.


Mike Hoskinson
EV grinning in the Frozen North.




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http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Hi Dennis.

I'll try to find the exact figures. The pack was a little over 
$16,000. The Stybrook modules were $45 each x 45 = about $2000. The 
weight is about 660Lbs. The cells are in modules of 3 with aluminum 
plates on the sides to prevent swelling. 15 modules for 144 volts 
nominal. They replace 24 Trojan 125s which weighed 1500 lbs. The 
difference in stopping ability alone transforms the pickup from a lead 
sled to a real car. I love it. It would be nice if the pack lasts 10 
years, but even if it doesn't, it has already given me a big EV Grin. 
I wait with great expectation the day when that pack gets transplanted 
into a 2006 Scion Xb.

A couple of years ago I spent $40,000 on a turbo Subaru station wagon. 
Nice car, but I hate the fuel consumption and the monthly payments. 
For just over $10,000 more than the cost of that gas guzzler, I will 
have an electric Scion Xb with just as much room for dogs, a 120Km 
range, and a constant EV grin.

Mike

Quoting "Pestka, Dennis J" <[email protected]>:

> Mike;
>
> Will you share cost, weight, and source of this pack ?
>
> Thanks;
> Dennis
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Michael Hoskinson [mailto:[email protected]]
> Sent: Saturday, April 05, 2008 1:36 PM
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: [EVDL] TS LFP 160AHA experience update
>
> Hi EVerybody
>
> A few months ago I replaced the Tojan pack in my Mazda B2000 with 45
> 160Ah Thunderskys, for a nominal 144 volts and an end of charge voltage
> of ~180 which would not kill the Raptor 600 controller. The Mazda has a
> 9" ADC. It was converted by Ian Hamilton a few years ago.
> I've been cautious with the new pack while I learn about the
> peculiarities of charging Li-ion cells, and have mostly been using the
> truck for a short commute. The pack is soon to go into a 2006 Scion Xb
> that Randy Holmquist has kindly agreed to convert for me, though his
> shop has been overly busy lately making Mite-E Trucks. Hopefully, it
> will be ready in time for VEVA's Rev show in June. 
>
> Last night I bit the bullet and drove out to the airport and back in the
> Mazda. For me this is the holy grail of EV usability in Edmonton.
> If I can get to the airport to pick people up and get back on battery
> alone, then I don't really need a gas car in Edmonton.
>
> I charged up the pack (3rd time this week) and found that the cells were
> much close than they had been after 2 weeks of inaction last month. On
> the way there, about 1/4 city and 3/4 highway, I did not baby the truck,
> but tried to keep up with traffic without letting the pack sag too low.
> Starting out the voltage was about 150 under minimal load, 137-140 under
> load of up to 200 amps or so, which is all that is required to
> accelerate the now light-weight truck at a decent pull. Which is to
> say, it accelerates about like a prudent driver would accelerate a small
> car when he was not trying to prove anything.
>
> Getting from 90km/h to 110 was not as easy as it would be in that small
> gas car, but I was not embarrassed by its performance, nor was I the
> slowest vehicle on the road. I'm sure you get the picture. I found the
> voltage dropping off a bit on the slight uphill grades that one would
> not notice in a gas car, and let the truck slow down a bit if it looked
> like it would take too much to keep it at 110. The voltage never went
> below 133, and I did not have to slow down to less than 100. Most people
> generally drive their big pickups and SUVs at 120-130Km/h on that
> highway, (that's about 80 of your Earth mph) but nobody flipped me the
> bird, so I was doing ok.
>
> I made it to the airport with no problem, and stopped at a well-lit gas
> station to check the pack for hot cells. Some of the interconnects were
> warm to the touch, but nothing was hot; I was not surprised at the warm
> connectors since I had been pulling more than 150 amps for half an hour
> and the pack is pretty well insulated. I put the lid back on and headed
> back, though without the confidence I had when starting out, since the
> emeter said -46Ah and I had never drawn the pack down less than -90. Oh
> well, nothing for it now. Full speed ahead! Approaching Old Strathcona
> I started to get confident again. There was no appreciable change in
> performance. The pack was still putting out whatever I needed and the
> voltage sag was not any worse. The pack would jump up to 147 when I
> stopped, not quite as high as when I started out but heck I was down
> 85Ah and she was still going strong.
>
> The big test came climbing the hill out of the river valley. It was a
> bit anti-climatic, actually, because there was still no loss of
> performance and she took the steep hill with no more strain than she
> ever does. Wow. Here I am gliding into the parkade with -96Ah on the
> emeter and 63km (39 Earth miles) on the trip meter. That's the farthest
> I have ever gone in an EV on one charge, except in an EV-1.
>
> I pulled into my spot and quickly flipped back the cover on the pack to
> see how the cells had fared. With the cab heater on full blast giving me
> a 13 amp draw, I checked each cell. Remarkably, all the cells were
> within a hair of 3.28 volts, despite the apparent imbalance
> I have been finding as the cells approach full charge. HooHoo!
> THAT'S what I'm talkin about!
>
> I hooked up the PFC 50 and let the Watt Fairy do her magic overnight.
>
>
> Mike Hoskinson
> EV grinning in the Frozen North.
>
>
>
>
>



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----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Michael,

Most interesting story! This is my first post back on the EV list in 
a while -- it's hard to keep up with it sometimes, but I'm in digest 
mode so maybe that will help.

I'm very interested in LiFePO4. VERY. I have a stagnating 914 
conversion that really needs me to find the "right" battery to plow 
forward. I've been drooling over A123 ever since I first saw their 
cells almost 3 years ago. Now it looks as if LiFePO4 is finally 
within reach of us ordinary folks!

First, a word of caution. 3.28V/cell is NOT necessarily balanced. 
Lithium Iron Phosphate has a VERY flat discharge curve. You'll only 
see imbalances at full and empty -- in between, it gets more or less 
lost. So, the only way to tell if it's balanced or not is to charge 
it fully. In good news, 3.28V/cell sounds like a pretty healthy 
charge for having just used 96Ah :-D

Now, for the self-serving bit. Can you tell me (either on or off 
list) how much your cells cost? As I said, I've been out of touch 
with the list for a while, and it sounds like a lot has happened. 
I've looked at A123 in the past, and I'm looking at other options 
now. I'd like to know where ThunderSky fits in. Cost is a big driver 
for me, but I like the idea of having single cells instead of having 
to spend extra money building packs out of little teensy ones.

Thanks, and keep the news coming!
-Ben

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----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

[No message]


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Hi Ben;

Well? Welcome back! Haven't scene ya in awile? Back in Maine?Good to see 
ya back in the "fold". You aren't the only one into the New Era of 
Bad-eries! After helping J.Wayland lift the a123 pack into the Xombie, and 
seeing him run with it, borrowed from the Killacycle. A new era is here! 
Imagine a pak that weighs less than YOU!

Been following the new battery thread with interest. What? No more Led 
Sleds! Could happen?

Seeya

Bob..........still hanging around the List.
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Ben Apollonio" <[email protected]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, April 07, 2008 11:16 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] TS LFP 160AHA experience update


> Michael,
>
> Most interesting story! This is my first post back on the EV list in
> a while -- it's hard to keep up with it sometimes, but I'm in digest
> mode so maybe that will help.
>
> I'm very interested in LiFePO4. VERY. I have a stagnating 914
> conversion that really needs me to find the "right" battery to plow
> forward. I've been drooling over A123 ever since I first saw their
> cells almost 3 years ago. Now it looks as if LiFePO4 is finally
> within reach of us ordinary folks!
>
> First, a word of caution. 3.28V/cell is NOT necessarily balanced.
> Lithium Iron Phosphate has a VERY flat discharge curve. You'll only
> see imbalances at full and empty -- in between, it gets more or less
> lost. So, the only way to tell if it's balanced or not is to charge
> it fully. In good news, 3.28V/cell sounds like a pretty healthy
> charge for having just used 96Ah :-D
>
> Now, for the self-serving bit. Can you tell me (either on or off
> list) how much your cells cost? As I said, I've been out of touch
> with the list for a while, and it sounds like a lot has happened.
> I've looked at A123 in the past, and I'm looking at other options
> now. I'd like to know where ThunderSky fits in. Cost is a big driver
> for me, but I like the idea of having single cells instead of having
> to spend extra money building packs out of little teensy ones.
>
> Thanks, and keep the news coming!
> -Ben
>
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev 

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