# Assault n Battery Build Thread



## John Metric (Feb 26, 2009)

Little peak underneath....


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## Bowser330 (Jun 15, 2008)

sleeper! 

Can't wait to see more!


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## rochesterricer (Jan 5, 2011)

Do I spy a Fab 9 rear end?


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Sweet. I don't think i would call it a sleeper though. With dish dish rear rims, front skinnies, large pattern 5-bolt wheels, and a parachute, it's obvious something serious has taken place under the skin.


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## Dustin_mud (May 22, 2012)

That's pretty sweet, where do you guys normally race at?


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## somanywelps (Jan 25, 2012)

Bowser330 said:


> sleeper!
> 
> Can't wait to see more!


Sleepers don't have parachutes


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## Bowser330 (Jun 15, 2008)

somanywelps said:


> Sleepers don't have parachutes


HahAhahaha, didn't notice that, yah that's a tip off hahahaha.

From a side view angle 99% of ppl wouldn't think anything of this miata.

Little do they know, any videos or specs on it?


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## John Metric (Feb 26, 2009)

Bowser330 said:


> HahAhahaha, didn't notice that, yah that's a tip off hahahaha.
> From a side view angle 99% of ppl wouldn't think anything of this miata.
> Little do they know, any videos or specs on it?


parachute is removable so you can put the license plate back on

Metric


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## John Metric (Feb 26, 2009)

rochesterricer said:


> Do I spy a Fab 9 rear end?


That is correct. good eye.

Metric


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## John Metric (Feb 26, 2009)

Dustin_mud said:


> That's pretty sweet, where do you guys normally race at?


Normal stomping grounds is Houston Motorsports Park, Royal Purple in Baytown, Lonestar Motorsports Park in Sealy.

We will be powering this with two NETGAIN Warp9 motors.


Metric


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## Bowser330 (Jun 15, 2008)

John Metric said:


> Normal stomping grounds is Houston Motorsports Park, Royal Purple in Baytown, Lonestart Motorsports Park in Sealy.
> 
> We will be powering this with two NETGAIN Warp9 motors.
> 
> ...


No interest in using impulse9's and using more rpm up top?


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## John Metric (Feb 26, 2009)

Bowser330 said:


> No interest in using impulse9's and using more rpm up top?


Couple problems....
No 32 spline TWarp available with that motor. Unless you go custom motors. My main goal from the start of my project was prove you could do this with all off the shelf parts. So far so good, stock motors, stock LiPo packs, stock BMS, stock Ford driveline parts.
I make just as much HP as the impulse9's but make 25% more low end torque. This would be a problem if I didn't have a transmission.
I am now running a 9.8 and am battery limited from going faster, not motor HP limited. The answer for DCP is more battery. I think you could see 1000 battery HP from my two warp9 setup. With 1500ftlbs torque. Can't do that with impulse 9's. I will be continuing to use the Warp9's as they make more torque.

I think a pair of Impulse9's have their place in cars with no transmission or with a full transmission but want to run a single motor to not overtorque the stock transmission. I would like to see it offered with a 32 spline shaft.

Metric


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## hostage (Aug 2, 2007)

We could build a 32-tooth ImPulse pretty quickly, same end bells as W9, just a slightly different shaft. All motors built after 8/1/2012 should have "all the goodies", 1/2" studs, aluminum, high output fans (which you may wish to remove for 1/4 mile racing...), Helwig brushes, etc. etc. Unfortunately, this isn't the"priority" motor we're working on... But, I'll ask Hunter to throw together the CAD drawings so we can see if anything else needs to change, he can probably get it done yet today...
Geo


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## ruckus (Apr 15, 2009)

John Metric said:


> We will be powering this with two NETGAIN Warp9 motors.


Only 2?? Why not 3? I guess you are doing an "old skool" kinda build. 

How can you expect to go much faster using the same Wayland design? Where is the innovation?


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## John Metric (Feb 26, 2009)

ruckus said:


> Only 2?? Why not 3? I guess you are doing an "old skool" kinda build.
> How can you expect to go much faster using the same Wayland design? Where is the innovation?


How's that for an EV transmission?


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## ruckus (Apr 15, 2009)

Looks like about 2-3 motors worth of material and length... and 2 years worth of $$$ 


Please tell, what does it do? And why so many levers?

I have no doubt that you will go fast by copying Wayland and using the latest version of (old skool) components.

Here is what I am getting at: Weigh your entire drive-train. Would not you be better with either direct axle drive or direct wheel drive motors?

Just curious.


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## Yukon_Shane (Jul 15, 2010)

John Metric said:


> How's that for an EV transmission?


Very slick transmission!

So that's a 4 speed with reverse and two overdrives? 

Crazy


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## John Metric (Feb 26, 2009)

ruckus said:


> Here is what I am getting at: Weigh your entire drive-train. Would not you be better with either direct axle drive or direct wheel drive motors?
> Just curious.


Can you show me some pictures of what you are talking about and how they would fit?
My current specs for A&B are 1500 ftlbs of torque through a 3.00 rear end, so 4500ftlbs of torque at the wheels or better....
and 800-1000 battery horsepower.....

If you have some pancake motor or something else in that range, I would like to know about it. I have not read about anything close to that.

Metric


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## John Metric (Feb 26, 2009)

Yukon_Shane said:


> Very slick transmission!
> So that's a 4 speed with reverse and two overdrives?
> Crazy


To clarify, It is four speed (two of them overdrives) with reverse, thus the four levers. (not 4 plus two overdrives) A fellow named Gary Livingston is doing a prototype, we have been talking about it for some time. He is doing the same thing except no first gear lenco and no "multi" gear vendors unit. He is just doing the two speed with reverser. I am going to see how his shake down goes and then put some money down on mine above. This is a photo-shop.

Metric


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## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

John Metric said:


> To clarify, It is four speed with reverse, thus the five levers. (not 4 plus two overdrives) A fellow named Gary Livingston is doing a prototype, we have been talking about it for some time. He is doing the same thing except no first gear lenco and no "multi" gear vendors unit. He is just doing the two speed with reverser. I am going to see how his shake down goes and then put some money down on mine above. This is a photo-shop.
> 
> Metric


He builds a nice adapter for the CS2, but the CS2 is not as strong as the CS1. The large amounts of torque being produced in a EV drag Car might blow a CS2. I recommend the set-up for lighter drag cars or with less torque off the line. JMO


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## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

Was this an ex -alcohol car?


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## John Metric (Feb 26, 2009)

mizlplix said:


> Was this an ex-alcohol car?


It never raced. It is a Miata unibody chassis on a 25.2 tube frame, the previous owner had a small block V8 with twin 88mm turbos. You can see the miata chassis on the left and right. (you can see DC Plasma just to the left....feeling kind of lonely)


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## DIYguy (Sep 18, 2008)

Hey John. Nice project.


John Metric said:


> To clarify, It is four speed (two of them overdrives) with reverse, thus the four levers. (not 4 plus two overdrives)


It's a 4 speed yes. . . but two of those 4 levers don't have a function in this set up. . . unless someone plans to put some switches on them to drive the GV. If you look, you will see the outside levers are connected. The first one is for the Lenco 2 speed. The far one is for the Lenco Reverser. (second in line). Then the two GV units giving two overdrive speeds. GV are usually controlled by a controller and/or a foot/thumb switch. 
Seems like it may be a lot of gears if a "high power" electric drive is to be used. Less power usually needs more gears. The highest power drives may not need any gears. . . it's a bit of a question with unsure answer depending on a lot of things. With the right rear gears/tires maybe just two speeds required. . . ??



John Metric said:


> A fellow named Gary Livingston is doing a prototype, we have been talking about it for some time. He is doing the same thing except no first gear lenco and no "multi" gear vendors unit. He is just doing the two speed with reverser. I am going to see how his shake down goes and then put some money down on mine above. This is a photo-shop.
> Metric


That's me. 
The reverser is a nice match with the GV overdrive I think. Maybe you can just start with the double overdrive + reverser, and lower rear end gear set to see how it works.. . ? As you know, the Lenco's just stack as many as u want . . . regardless if they are CS1, CS2, CS3 . . The only catch may be the input shaft adaption and change out based on adding units. That reminds me, I have to ask them about the commonality of the input gears from the Reverser to the std units. 
BTW, I did ask for the adaptor plate dwg . . and they agreed to send it, (it was on my bill for the reverser shifter and linkage I just got) but it wasn't in the box... ?? hmmm.


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## DIYguy (Sep 18, 2008)

LithiumaniacsEVRacing said:


> He builds a nice adapter for the CS2, but the CS2 is not as strong as the CS1. The large amounts of torque being produced in a EV drag Car might blow a CS2. I recommend the set-up for lighter drag cars or with less torque off the line. JMO


Hey Ron. The adaptor pattern is the same on all them. . I'm pretty sure. At least it is on the two I have and one is a top fuel reverser and the other is used on all the other models except the ST1200 I think. The top fuel reverser has a much bigger bearing on the inside tho as well as the huge 40 spline almost 1 3/4" shaft. 
I think the CS2 is still good for up to 2500 hp but you're right of course the torque is the more important number.


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## John Metric (Feb 26, 2009)

DIYguy said:


> Hey John. Nice project.
> . . unless someone plans to put some switches on them to drive the GV.


Yes, I currently switch the GV with an electrical switch, so since I need a Lenco shifter for the two speed and reverser, I plan to just do a brake switch contactor for the GV's, it also looks cool. don'tcha think?



DIYguy said:


> "That's me. "
> Maybe you can just start with the double overdrive + reverser, and lower rear end gear set to see how it works.. . ?


Gary, how are you doing? DIYGUY
I will be taking it in stages as money allows.
Stage 1: 1500ftlbs 800batteryHP One GV
That should give full torque to about 2600rpm and then a shift back to full torque at about 3100rpm but now 0.78* 1500

Stage Two would be the MULTI GV, stage three would be I think the Lenco first at 1.50 and reverser, giving much stronger launch now at 2250ftllbs

Also, double GV I think should get us to about 175mph in the one mile drag strip in Beeville.


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## DIYguy (Sep 18, 2008)

John Metric said:


> Yes, I currently switch the GV with an electrical switch, so since I need a Lenco shifter for the two speed and reverser, I plan to just do a brake switch contactor for the GV's, it also looks cool. don'tcha think?


Hey. . I'm good man.  Yep, very kewl. I kinda thought u had something up ur sleeve there. . 



John Metric said:


> Gary, how are you doing? DIYGUY
> I will be taking it in stages as money allows.
> Stage 1: 1500ftlbs 800batteryHP One GV
> That should give full torque to about 2600rpm and then a shift back to full torque at about 3100rpm but now 0.78* 1500
> ...


Ah nice. It's always tough to make one vehicle good at more than one thing. I know, cause I'm doing similar craziness. No one mile top speed for me... but I just can't build a fast EV ride and let it sit there for once a month drags. I gotta drive it . . all the time!  That means it has to go fast and far (and last for a while)... of course u know what the 3rd variable is. $$
I think there is something wrong with my calculator, cause it keeps telling me my torque could peak at 2500 ft-lbs.


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## John Metric (Feb 26, 2009)

DIYguy;304885I think there is something wrong with my calculator said:


> Send me the file with your data I will see what's wrong.


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## DIYguy (Sep 18, 2008)

John Metric said:


> Send me the file with your data I will see what's wrong.


 lol lol, It was tongue-in-cheek . . lol but, not far off me-thinks...


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## John Metric (Feb 26, 2009)

DIYguy said:


> The highest power drives may not need any gears. .


?????
The top fuelers can do it with about 6000ftlbs of torque at about 7000rpm and a 3.23 rear end&35" tire and they ride the clutch all the way down until the tires grow and speed increases to finally reach 1:1.

I don't see any 5000ftlbs to 6000ftlb at 7000rpm motors on the horizon in the proper weight range. 
Until somebody has a motor that gets full torque nearly the length of the 1/4 mile in a single gear I will be using gears.

I hear some of these GE's can do it but nobody releases any data showing 2000 amps all the way down the track, so I am dubious.
My 155mph Texas Mile drag run is as close to full amps all the way for 35 seconds is the closest thing I have seen to that.


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## DIYguy (Sep 18, 2008)

John Metric said:


> ?????
> The top fuelers can do it with about 6000ftlbs of torque at about 7000rpm and a 3.23 rear end&35" tire and they ride the clutch all the way down until the tires grow and speed increases to finally reach 1:1.
> 
> I don't see any 5000ftlbs to 6000ftlb at 7000rpm motors on the horizon in the proper weight range.
> ...


Ya, that's why I said "may". I tend to be more on the side of gears also . . that's why I am going with two even tho I have a 13" motor and the ability to deliver 3000 amps. . for some period of time. Of course there are plenty who will tell you this absolutely (as you know). Vehicle weight, motor characteristics, battery HP/voltage level etc etc. all goes into it.


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## DanGT86 (Jan 1, 2011)

Wow! Love seeing builds like this! Any estimates on total race weight? Does lenco not offer any overdrive ratios? Seems like you guys favor Gv units. Seems like it would be easier if it were all lenco modules unless OD ones don't exist. Im in no way qualified to tell you that you are doing anything wrong. Seeing the GV units just made me wonder about that. Does the 2nd Gv overdrive the already overdriven output of the 1st (compounding the OD) or are they 2 different ratios that will be used one at a time? Cool build! Can't wait to see this one run!


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## John Metric (Feb 26, 2009)

DanGT86 said:


> Wow! Love seeing builds like this! Any estimates on total race weight? Does lenco not offer any overdrive ratios? Seems like you guys favor Gv units. Seems like it would be easier if it were all lenco modules unless OD ones don't exist. Im in no way qualified to tell you that you are doing anything wrong. Seeing the GV units just made me wonder about that. Does the 2nd Gv overdrive the already overdriven output of the 1st (compounding the OD) or are they 2 different ratios that will be used one at a time? Cool build! Can't wait to see this one run!


Heavier than Black Current Lighter than DC Plasma. Not sure yet(don't want to give it away yet). A lot more steel in the rear to take some real torque. DC Plasma is a 28 spline CV Shaft system, this is 3-4 times beefier than that.

Lenco does not make a shiftable overdrive and Up til about a week ago, I had called Lenco several times and they have said no fixed overdrive units either only reducers.
I have just found someone there that said they think they can run their reducer backwards with custom female spline couplers. I am waiting to hear on a final price. The idea would be permanent overdrive and all lenco reducers like a normal transmission.

The photoshop picture above I would target 1.56:1, 1:1, 1:0.78, 1:0.60
1:0.50 overdrive on front would be 3, 1.5, 1.25, 1


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## DanGT86 (Jan 1, 2011)

That's clever. So once you get the overdrive input with the custom reducer any further gear choices don't require custom work. 

I was amazed that the 28 spline ford rear held together in DC Plasma with CV joints. Good thing its a pretty light car.


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## John Metric (Feb 26, 2009)

DanGT86 said:


> That's clever. So once you get the overdrive input with the custom reducer any further gear choices don't require custom work.
> I was amazed that the 28 spline ford rear held together in DC Plasma with CV joints. Good thing its a pretty light car.


I had DC Plasma engineered to the scary edge of MOT specs on nearly every driveline part. 150lb Battery too. It was a neat project.

Assault n Battery is going to be another technical "what are the limits" kind of build. We are shooting for first car to 150mph in the 1/4 and maybe 200mph in the one mile, also first car to deploy a parachute, maybe 125mph in the 1/8th and a couple other milestones. Couple of sponsors that want to be part of that would be nice.


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## DIYguy (Sep 18, 2008)

John Metric said:


> I had DC Plasma engineered to the scary edge of MOT specs on nearly every driveline part. 150lb Battery too. It was a neat project.
> 
> Assault n Battery is going to be another technical "what are the limits" kind of build. We are shooting for first car to 150mph in the 1/4 and maybe 200mph in the one mile, also first car to deploy a parachute, maybe 125mph in the 1/8th and a couple other milestones. Couple of sponsors that want to be part of that would be nice.


Sounds exciting. So, what are your plans for controller(s), motor(s), battery?

Edit' I see the comment on two warp 9's.


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## John Metric (Feb 26, 2009)

DIYguy said:


> Sounds exciting. So, what are your plans for controller(s), motor(s), battery?
> Edit' I see the comment on two warp 9's.


Netgain/Zilla/LiPo
More to follow


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## Dustin_mud (May 22, 2012)

Yeah I would love some info on the batt pack, guys are giving me the want to race again....maybe after my crawler build


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## John Metric (Feb 26, 2009)

Dustin_mud said:


> Yeah I would love some info on the batt pack, guys are giving me the want to race again....maybe after my crawler build


I call my line of LiPo packs "LiPo Seduction"
They are RC car batteries massively paralleled and series"ed".
I currently run a 90S6P arrangement that makes about 800 peak battery horsepower. You can see a bunch of photos on my facebook page.


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## John Metric (Feb 26, 2009)

I was just thinking the photoshop is actually a five speed.
1.56:1
1.56*.78 = 1.22:1
1.00:1
0.78:1
0.78*.78 = 0.608:1


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## John Metric (Feb 26, 2009)

OK, 1.56 Lenco and reverser with neutral is in the shop.


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## Dustin_mud (May 22, 2012)

That being backed by a od??


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## John Metric (Feb 26, 2009)

Dustin_mud said:


> That being backed by a od??


Yeah, something like post #16.
But I am going with CO2 switches instead of manual levers now and only one overdrive to start unless I find some more money.


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## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

Any new pics?


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## John Metric (Feb 26, 2009)

I posted a youtube video of the 32 spline swap on the Lenco, but the darn copyright police got me for the 30 year old transistor radio in my 2x4 garage recording with a 10 year old 640X480 AVI quality translated to moviemaker wmv, then uploaded to MP3 or 4 on youtube and they can still tell it was foreigner playing the background while i narrated. I am irritated by that. Warner Music Group might miss out on their 1/10000th of penny of revenue in case you guys want to copy that recording.


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## otp57 (Feb 7, 2012)

John Metric said:


> How's that for an EV transmission?


 WOW! that a nice one


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## gary k (Aug 19, 2008)

more like "Assault with Battery". Nice!


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## John Metric (Feb 26, 2009)

gary k said:


> more like "Assault with Battery". Nice!


I thought about that one too. 

OK, here is stage one of Assault&Battery's new transmisison. See the build on facebook too. "Lonestar EV Racing Team" video of the spin on youtube too.


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## John Metric (Feb 26, 2009)

*Re: Assault&Battery Build Thread*

Wow, so if you snooze you lose, look what came in the mail today, my final adapter piece.
This is my completed 1500HP Electric motor Five Speed Transmission with double overdrive. It is about six inches longer than doing the whole thing with six LENCO cases including a permanent overdrive and about $3000 cheaper and deeper overdrive this way. All fly by wire shifting. oh, neutral and reverse in there too so I never have to spin the motor backwards again, which means we can eliminate all switches in the motor circuit and the 45lb backup battery. The net only adds about 35 lbs to the car. The magnesium cases are surprising light.


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## John Metric (Feb 26, 2009)

Photo with Dennis Berube (right) and Butch Warner (middle) in Bob Oldfather's house in Tucson.


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## John Metric (Feb 26, 2009)

Photo of Butch Warner(left), Tim Brehm (White Zombie)(middle) at Bob Oldfather's house in Tucson.


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## John Metric (Feb 26, 2009)

Picture of the year, Brian Hall (left) on Tron, Jeff Disinger (right) on Predator.


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## John Metric (Feb 26, 2009)

A picture from my Lonestar EV Racing Team facebook page.


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## John Metric (Feb 26, 2009)

Weight on the drivetrain is 487 lbs.


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## John Metric (Feb 26, 2009)

Yep, that's the driveshaft. Short Couple Tubeshaft with tube delete, Dana Spicer, 1.5" stroke, 1350, Jerry Bickel Racing Ujoints, 12"-13.5"


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## John Metric (Feb 26, 2009)

Couple of the latest photos from my Miata Build.


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## John Metric (Feb 26, 2009)

*Link* to Assault&Battery's public debut at a Makers Faire in Houston.


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## ruckus (Apr 15, 2009)

SO cool!

Keep up the good work. 

ps. race you at evccon for a beer. 

pps. I kinda know who's gonna win..


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## John Metric (Feb 26, 2009)

ruckus said:


> SO cool!
> 
> Keep up the good work.
> 
> ...


Thanks, how is that big permanent magnet motor working? Do you have any dyno like data? HP versus rpm, torque vs rpm etc....


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## ruckus (Apr 15, 2009)

Hi John,
Still trying to work out the details on the battery pack. The predicted sag is killing me.  The Liyuan batt folks are a no-show communication-wise. And the K2's are.. well.. expensive and a zillion cells kinda scares me.

Plus, working on an EV in Montana in January is lame when the mountains just got almost 3' of fresh powder and my very thoughtful wife surprised me with new fatty boards... 

But I'll be mounting up the motor in the 36 International over the next month or so...










A few details to take care of...









kinda going toward this look with less grille kant:









But probably a bit more traditional style like this: (pretend that tank is a batt pack)









How's yer stuff goin?

Cheers


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## John Metric (Feb 26, 2009)

Got to slam it! That pic looks good. Friend of mines ride, dude, kind of low for me, but he fit well.








My Mazda has a 2" clearance to the bottom of the main driveshaft hoop.
We had to raise it by 1/2" to not get kicked by NHRA. But the look is cool.








Looking for power, check out www.ampahaulic.com for power batteries. (not range)


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## ruckus (Apr 15, 2009)

A chop and slam are likely at some point.. but first I need to get it on the road/dyno. I like a little bit traditional look like this:










Cheers


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## John Metric (Feb 26, 2009)

Well, the third annual First of the Year TX EV Drags is under our belts. We raced at Houston Motorsports Park after a rainout in Sealy on Saturday. We lost a lot of early commitals due to the HMP date was drag slicks only. Also, it started out 72degrees and about 20mph winds but turned chilly and about 57degrees by the last run.

The good news appears to be that there was no carnage and it appears EV conversion quality gets a lot better on your second car conversion. There weren't the annoying data communications issues and faults and trips like the Fiero build. We arrived at around 6:00 and even though the track claims a 7:00 start of racing, there were people already running down the track. I will have to leave even earlier next time to get more daylight run time. My CO2 bottle seemed to have run out somewhere overnight and it turns out that NOX works in the shifter just as well. So we may have ran the first EV with Nitrous. The PFC30 behaved very well, much better than our BRUSA 1.8kW and we got in four runs with time to chit chat in between runs. There were very few cars at our "event" which was run at a test n tune but noone else could run because it was a drag slicks only event. So our team ran solo again. We were joined by Adam Clark(team member, HEAA VP and NEDRA Gulf Coast Regional Director), Keith Howard (HEAA and Mustang club) who brought his Ford EV, Brent Norris driving a hybrid, Drist Cox, and my right hand man Nathan Metric.
We raced in the XS/A2 class/div. Current 1/8th mile record is held by Michael Kadie in 2-SSIC 8.053 at 81mph set in 2008.
So we started at 1000Amps and 99Volts since this was the first time for the car, Assault&Battery and the driver on drag slicks and a four link suspension. 
We ran a 
1.7262 60 ft
5.4863 330ft
8.9245 660ft at 66.99mph

I did not get a first gear shift and no overdrive shift. I realized we were not getting the overdrives to kick in for some reason because the car just seemed dead after about 330ft.
But the car left straight as an arrow and seemed to just glide down the track. We upped the amps to 1200A and volts to 160V
Results was
1.4855 60ft (better than any time ever posted by DCP)
4.4392 330ft 
7.0877 660ft at 91.02mph

Again take off was like we were on glass. Smooth with none of the screetch that I am used to on DCP, just a gooey sticking noise. (listen to video) This time the second gear shift occurred just like on the street back home. But again no overdrive.
So up to 1700A at 170V
Result was 
1.4045 60 ft
4.1249 330ft (that was better than any DCP time)
6.5924 660ft at 98.88mph (just missed the 100mph club.)

So we took a team vote, about trying to repeat the result for a record or risk losing traction by upping the settings. I told them that my calcs were that the 1.56 underdrive and 1500ftlbs was going to break the 28X14.5 tires loose. Team voted for max power! Way to go guys. SO 2000Amps and 199Volts.
Result
1.3640 60ft (with a lot of tire spin, 20psi on the rear tires)
3.9700 330ft
6.7044 660ft at 78.78mph (car tripped at about 330ft)

So we didn’t break 100mph but that was pretty good on a 22Ahr pack with LiPo cells that are nearly three years old and no overdrive. We will submit XS/A2 for 6.7044

Some pictures will be placed in the photo section and most of the Pictures and videos will be on our facebook site for Lonestar EV Racing Team and youtube DCPLASMARACING.

I hope all the members out there will try to organize an event even if it is just you. The crowds around the EV cars are just amazing. We had only a couple hundred people out there today and they all seemed to stop in our pit at one point of the evening. Thanks to our sponsors, Netgain Motors, Helwig Carbon, Wursthaus, RechargeCar.

Metric

A&B is Dual Netgain Warp9, Dual Zilla 2K-EHV, Lenco 2 speed, double GV overdrive, 2002 Mazda Miata.


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## John Metric (Feb 26, 2009)

Here are some shots from Houston Motorsports Park last night.


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## John Metric (Feb 26, 2009)

Here is a video of one of the runs at HMP last night.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WVDhEgDxzmE

And the one that will probably be official.... but slower....damn rules...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ztaDhEou0T0

and one in car
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_arIufichF4


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## John Metric (Feb 26, 2009)

Ruthie3ondeau said:


> Can't wait to see more!


Thanks after beating the 10 second mark in the fiero we are shooting to beat 9.5 set by Oliver young in the UK.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Looking good. I just wish there weren't any ICE's in the next lane so we could hear the car better doing the burnout.


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## John Metric (Feb 26, 2009)

JRP3 said:


> Looking good. I just wish there weren't any ICE's in the next lane so we could hear the car better doing the burnout.


Here is some in car video.....


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## Hollie Maea (Dec 9, 2009)

Good stuff. Looking forward to seeing more of this monster in action.


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## ruckus (Apr 15, 2009)

Hi John,

Good to see the drive-train you brought to EVCCON last year in action! Even better to HEAR it. Love that EV scream. 

By the way, the car looks beautiful. You might just touch off a Miata hard-top craze with that thing.

Looks like I'll be buying the beer in Aug since there's no way my old farm truck is gonna be faster. 

What's the reaction from the ICE track guys?

Regards,
Marcus


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## John Metric (Feb 26, 2009)

Reaction from icers is a lot of swearing. 
I think I make it look too easy. The car just begins gliding forward and the shock to people's system must be a lot like seeing a UFO for the first time. They can't believe their eyes. 
There is a lot of betting at the track and I am getting all kinds of propositions of people wanting to stake me to go make some money at other tracks.


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## ruckus (Apr 15, 2009)

John Metric said:


> They can't believe their eyes.
> There is a lot of betting at the track and I am getting all kinds of propositions of people wanting to stake me to go make some money at other tracks.



...Puts new meaning to the expectation than an EV will 'pay' for itself' 

If you can do a full run at 2000A, 200V then you would have a clincher


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## Karter2 (Nov 17, 2011)

When /where is your first quarter mile john ?
love to be there...but its a bit of a trip.....
Good luck anyway ..not that you need it !


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## John Metric (Feb 26, 2009)

I am going to continue to do 1/8th mile till I get the tire pressure correct for launch. We raced with 20psi and started spinning the 28" tall x 14.5" wide slicks at 2000Amps. We would like to improve on the 1.364 60 foot time first before we really bog this little 150lb battery pack down, which is now in its third racing season.

The last race we ran a 6.7 1/8th mile with power on only the first 4 seconds. I would like to be the first doorslammer in the fives (1/8th mile) as my next goal.


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## Karter2 (Nov 17, 2011)

sounds like a sensible approach ,John.
So when is the next "launch date" ?


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## John Metric (Feb 26, 2009)

We are going to HMP again on Friday April 5th.


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## GeoMetric (Aug 13, 2010)

John Metric said:


> We are going to HMP again on Friday April 5th.


Looking good!  

My MT slicks we drop the pressure down to 7lbs, the wrinkle effect is like a sling shot of the line. 

We will be racing soon.


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## GerhardRP (Nov 17, 2009)

John Metric said:


> <snip> I told them that my calcs were that the 1.56 underdrive and 1500ftlbs was going to break the 28X14.5 tires loose. <snip>


So for us outside the drag racing circle, are there tables or charts of breakaway torque for various tires? and track conditions?
Gerhard


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## John Metric (Feb 26, 2009)

GerhardRP said:


> So for us outside the drag racing circle, are there tables or charts of breakaway torque for various tires? and track conditions?
> Gerhard


I have a spreadsheet that models various track/rubber friction factors. 
Break away then is simply road force, tire height, torque friction calculation. 

You can call me if you would like to talk about your application. The model nailed my break in traction calc darn near rigt on. I am now going to try some variables I haven't tried before like cert low tire pressure. 
Are you thinking of racing?


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## GerhardRP (Nov 17, 2009)

John Metric said:


> I have a spreadsheet that models various track/rubber friction factors.
> Break away then is simply road force, tire height, torque friction calculation.
> 
> You can call me if you would like to talk about your application. The model nailed my break in traction calc darn near rigt on. I am now going to try some variables I haven't tried before like cert low tire pressure.
> Are you thinking of racing?


Hi John,
No I'm not planning to race because I don't have an EV yet.
What I enjoy is modelling and analysis as you might have guessed from my other posts. I see from your 60' times that you are pulling about 2G's whereas the fastest launchers get almost 4. Can I see your spreadsheet?
I would like to model your car...do you have Zilla dumps from the tune-up runs and maybe even street runs at much lower current limits?
Gerhard


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## John Metric (Feb 26, 2009)

Assault & Battery will be at HMP in Houston again tomorrow night. 

We will continue the shakedown.

Goals include:
trying to improve on the 1.364 60ft time
Try to hookup above 1700 amps
Get the DC to DC converter to stay on during peak horsepower draw
Getting over drives to work
Get into 100mph 1/8th mile range with second car
Try for first doorslammer 1/8th in the "fives"
Try new seat position out
Try lowering tire pressure from 20psi....

Hope to see you out there 




John Metric
979-665-5621

Sent from my iPhone


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## GerhardRP (Nov 17, 2009)

John Metric said:


> Assault & Battery will be at HMP in Houston again tomorrow night.
> 
> We will continue the shakedown.
> 
> ...


Parallel it with the smallest 12 V battery you can find.
Gerhard


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## John Metric (Feb 26, 2009)

I am trying to maintain the rear and in-cockpit e-stops and I have had the little 12V on the bus before, what happens is the e-stops don't cut off the system anymore.

Probably need a secondary relay on top of the main relay system to accomplish this.....


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## rochesterricer (Jan 5, 2011)

Do you have an estimated 1/4 mile time for the current setup, based on the track data you have so far?


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## John Metric (Feb 26, 2009)

Second track day for Assault&Battery, Lonestar EV Racing Team’s latest addition.

We have some important information for those folks wanting to run DOT slicks (and need them) on a day when they have Street Legal drag racing events that is open to the general public….skip it…
The track conditions were terrible. We had people just driving through the waterbox and right up to the line, then the track workers weren’t really motivate to mop up the water, so we actually went backwards on our 60foot times from the previous weekend. (I feel very lucky to be complaining about 1.45 60 foot times.)

We had four good runs
Results were:
1.5807 60ft
4.5419 330ft
7.1625 660ft 93mph

1.5038 60ft
4.0801 330ft
6.4610 660ft 95mph

1.4581 60ft
4.1024 330ft
7.0230 660ft 74mph

1.4876 60ft
4.0201 330ft
6.2276 660ft at 109mph

So we got our second car to 100mph 1/8ths .(same driver)
Moved a couple hundredths closer to the 5 second 1/8th mile.
Should reset the XS/A2 record a little lower.
Would have nothing but a rail dragster and motorcycles above us on the 1/8th mile board.
Learned we need to get a 12V battery on the DC-DC bus during racing…
Found several light bulbs have enough instant current draw to knock out a 100amp DC-DC converter. The third brake light on the trunk of all things seemed to do this, hooked up, brakes knocked out the converter, disconnected it did not. Hooking the brights and fog lights and running lights and parking lights all together on a high beam switch will do this also. Going to switch to individual switches for each rather than the pull knob button we have now. Also ordered a bunch of LED lights all around to get the amp draw down.

Here are some videos for your viewing enjoyment….. Played with the gopro camera location on a couple of them…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aiDRE7YAVbI&list=PLri2aILEY68iG6ewFNdyxCk7ofsZctZKR&index=3
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4FCfw0n44Nk&list=PLri2aILEY68iG6ewFNdyxCk7ofsZctZKR&index=4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ukW_-x1jkS4&list=PLri2aILEY68iG6ewFNdyxCk7ofsZctZKR&index=5
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TD5PaXSqV8I&list=PLri2aILEY68iG6ewFNdyxCk7ofsZctZKR&index=6
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QM1RCLesjnY&list=PLri2aILEY68iG6ewFNdyxCk7ofsZctZKR&index=7


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## Snakub (Sep 8, 2008)

Great videos! I posted a while back about where I could find a cycle by cycle current limited dc to dc converter but no one ever got back to me if you could find a reliable one perhaps you wouldn't need a battery. I remember when I had a homemade motor controller that required a bit of current it used to knock out the iota dc to dc and I would stuck in some traffic waiting for it to reset but then I added a little 12 volt lithium composed of a 123's at about 7 amp hour and it still knocked it out although not as much. I really wish I could find a power supply like that for more project than just ev's too


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## John Metric (Feb 26, 2009)

Snakub said:


> Great videos! I posted a while back about where I could find a cycle by cycle current limited dc to dc converter but no one ever got back to me if you could find a reliable one perhaps you wouldn't need a battery. I remember when I had a homemade motor controller that required a bit of current it used to knock out the iota dc to dc and I would stuck in some traffic waiting for it to reset but then I added a little 12 volt lithium composed of a 123's at about 7 amp hour and it still knocked it out although not as much. I really wish I could find a power supply like that for more project than just ev's too


Jack Rickard just told me a trick about putting a diode on the input to prevent the DC/DC caps from back flushing to the pack under load which pop the overcurrent protection just like a "short" or overload..

Going to check for one of those. and maybe a little 12V on the bus and on the start circuit.


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## Yabert (Feb 7, 2010)

John Metric said:


> ... and maybe a little 12V on the bus and on the start circuit.


Four A123 2.3Ah 26650 work well for me since few month (less than 1/4 lbs).
http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showpost.php?p=333310&postcount=216


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## John Metric (Feb 26, 2009)

OK, guys, latest Assault&Battery Results from April 14th 2013, and I must say I am pretty happy. First doorslammer in the fives in the 1/8th that I am aware of.

First Run
1.4926 60ft
4.4985 330ft
7.1748 1/8 90.84mph

Second Run
1.3092 60ft
3.8870 330ft
6.2146 1/8 103.73mph

Third Run
1.3921 60ft
3.9333 330ft
6.1690 1/8 108.17

Fourth Run
1.3014 60ft
3.7686 330ft
5.9566 1/8 110.19mph


We did this at 333V nominal LiPo pack built by Lithium Start with the Polyquest Cells now racing in it’s third season. Did you all notice the 5.9566 1/8th mile. Five second 1/8th. Damn it felt quick.
It felt like most of this was just simply the battery pack getting hotter and hotter through the four runs but I am sure a lot was my chassis guy giving me help doing the linelock second burnout, hitting the groove, etc….
Settings we ran were 2000amps on each motor at 200volts. I think the pack was sagging pretty bad so those figures probably weren’t met. I will have some data if the laptop took it on any of the runs. It was low on battery all night. I guess I neglected the laptop recharging this time. I will have to put and cigarette lighter in there. 

The 12Volt on the DC-DC bus seemed to do the trick, no trips all night.
We ran at 12psi on the tires all night. The linelock worked fairly well but we were pushing the front tire out of a standstill but still could stop before the starting line.

We got some HD video work by our first time visitor Aaron Castor. He is the one who started the Drag racing software model (back in 2009) that I have been using to incrementally improve. Thanks a lot Aaron.
We got our chassis expertise from Brian Castor, Aaron introduced me to Brian. Brian has been invaluable in setting this four link, suspension, tires, on and on…. Thanks Brian.
Also attending were Nathan and Eric, they helped out without complaints on anything we asked them to do. Nathan was always there with the generator and blower ready to go when I got back.
Adam Clark, just a great pit crew chief, helped on making the Miata a slick little build, everyone says the car is just good looking and has a lot of amenities that I would have probably not done. Thanks Adam.
Also attending was Keith Howard and his wife from the HEAA. 
Oh and whoever kept cleaning my windshield, (Adam & Brian?) that was greatly appreciated. I remember Brian and Trish Hall doing this for me in Bradenton that was a big help too. Something when you are running around you forget to do. (Right lane at HMP has you looking right into the track floodlights.

Thank you to Netgain Motors and Helwig Carbon, rechargecar, and Wursthaus for beer sponsorship (it’s important).

So what’s next? Back up the 5’s in the 1/8th? Take her to a ¼ mile? Let’s take a poll. More power I think.

So this will be the third record application for A&B in three attempts. We are still waiting for number two to become final. This will bump that right away.









Metric


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Great work. 1/4 mile next


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## rochesterricer (Jan 5, 2011)

Definitely 1/4 next. According to 1/8 to 1/4 conversion tables, the estimated 1/4 mile time would be in the low 9's. No idea how accurate that estimation is, but only one way to find out.


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## John Metric (Feb 26, 2009)

We are getting quite a few videos lately. I remember January of 2010, we had nearly 20 people out there but got only two grainy VGA videos.

So here are some neat ones from Sunday.....

Taken by our computer modeler who happened to have one of the best cameras we have ever brought out there. 
This one sounds amazing if you have a good speaker system. Turn it all the way up and watch the christmas tree. and look out....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5hqT1lt9Fbw&list=PLri2aILEY68iG6ewFNdyxCk7ofsZctZKR

This one was done by an amateur videographer who is doing this to build his resume, he mixed the sound and the videos and pictures all by himself. We didn't ask him to do this at all. He just was walking around asking questions to some of the people and heard about us trying to set a record. He then came over and asked if he could film us. So we said yes. He was pretty cool although a bit deaf.
It has a NEDRA intro outro first so let it play through....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5hqT1lt9Fbw&list=PLri2aILEY68iG6ewFNdyxCk7ofsZctZKR

rearview from the top of the car
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8dtVYV8YteQ&list=PLri2aILEY68iG6ewFNdyxCk7ofsZctZKR

inside the car...also very cool with the bass turned all the way up....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ukW_-x1jkS4&list=PLri2aILEY68iG6ewFNdyxCk7ofsZctZKR

Please feel free to share these around if you want.... Thanks for watching.


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## Yabert (Feb 7, 2010)

Awesome, 5.95s on 1/8, but you had sticking 0.65s on green light.
I can wait to see 1/4 mile with perfect start!

And I can stop to think about your result is you build a new battery with the bests available today...


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## John Metric (Feb 26, 2009)

Yabert said:


> but you had sticking 0.65s on green light.
> :


Not sure what you mean.
Are you talking about reaction time? It was a bye run so I could have waited five seconds to start with no consequence. The elapsed time (ET) is not effected by the reaction time.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

John Metric said:


> Not sure what you mean.
> Are you talking about reaction time? It was a bye run so I could have waited five seconds to start with no consequence. The elapsed time (ET) is not effected by the reaction time.


From what I understand, some places in Europe count reaction time as a part of the ET. We had that *discussion*, I think, in the Inhaler thread, many moons ago... 

As John pointed out, in the U.S. the ET timer doesn't start until the tires clear the lights (you move).


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## Yabert (Feb 7, 2010)

John Metric said:


> Are you talking about reaction time? It was a bye run so I could have waited five seconds to start with no consequence. The elapsed time (ET) is not effected by the reaction time.


Interesting to know.
Last time I gone to the drag track, time started when the green light come on. But it was amateur race...


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## John Metric (Feb 26, 2009)

Nice shot of A&B lifting the front wheels off the ground and an added bonus captured by the GoPro, first wrinkle wall tire action.


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## DanGT86 (Jan 1, 2011)

That is a great pic! One thing that stuck out when I watched the on car videos was how much detail you could see without an ICE vibrating the camera. It looks so smooth it almost doesn't sink in how quick that is. 

When you mentioned the line lock and pushing the front tires, were you talking about the burnout or are you torque loading the chassis when launching?

Do you think you have enough gear to make the most of a quarter mile pass?

I think this is such a cool build because it is not made of overly exotic parts. As far as race cars go its made of pretty attainable stuff used in a very effective way. I have drag racing buddies that would have laughed at the thought of EV racing but they all have taken notice and now they anxiously await new A&B time slips. Thanks!


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## John Metric (Feb 26, 2009)

DanGT86 said:


> When you mentioned the line lock and pushing the front tires, were you talking about the burnout or are you torque loading the chassis when launching?
> 
> Do you think you have enough gear to make the most of a quarter mile pass?
> 
> Thanks!


No, thank you.

No that was the burnout. I found preloading like you might in a ICE car without the motor moving is probably overheating a single comm bar and we haven't done that since I broke that bad habit in early 2010.

Oh I have the gears, four of them 1.56 to 0.61 Launch at 1.56:1 is incredible, and at 110mph in the 1/8th in 0.61 double overdrive I am only at 2400rpm.

The question is do I have the battery. I am still running this pack built in late 2009 at 500BHP and my BMS system is starting to implode. I need to do something soon. More BHP say 800? and new BMS.


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## Karter2 (Nov 17, 2011)

John,
what does the BMS do for the pack during a run ?
Do you need it on board for the run ?


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## John Metric (Feb 26, 2009)

Karter2 said:


> John,
> what does the BMS do for the pack during a run ?
> Do you need it on board for the run ?


During the run nothing. I don't use any of the features during a run. 
No it doesn't have to be on board to run. 
But the cell boards are the things I am having trouble with and they are built into the packs. It is an Elithion and the cell boards were customized to land all five of the P cells on to one board and then distribute those signals to the cell boards. 
I suppose I could build a substitutes system but then I would be plugging in an additional 91 wires each time I charge. I may have to so that.


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## Karter2 (Nov 17, 2011)

When are you on the track again John ?
Any progress with the pack ?


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## John Metric (Feb 26, 2009)

Karter2 said:


> When are you on the track again John ?
> Any progress with the pack ?


The BMS cell boards are dropping like flys.
I am trying to come up with a plan on balancing and monitoring.

I am shooting for mid May. 1/4 mile and knocking off Olly from top post.


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## GerhardRP (Nov 17, 2009)

John Metric said:


> The BMS cell boards are dropping like flys.


What sort of failures do you have?
Gerhard


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## Brute Force (Aug 28, 2010)

John, will we be seeing you at the Houston Half Mile next Saturday?


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## John Metric (Feb 26, 2009)

GerhardRP said:


> What sort of failures do you have?
> Gerhard


Several types
Most common is the little balance resistor going out


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## John Metric (Feb 26, 2009)

Brute Force said:


> John, will we be seeing you at the Houston Half Mile next Saturday?


Those races are brutal. I won't be doing the half mile but I was thinking of taking A&B to the aeros and autos car show during that event. I wanted to get a picture with the jet fighters they let the entrants do.


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## Brute Force (Aug 28, 2010)

Have fun at the car show. I doubt I'll have a chance to check A&B out, they'll be keeping us busy all day to squeeze in as many runs as possible.


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## GeoMetric (Aug 13, 2010)

John Metric said:


> The BMS cell boards are dropping like flys.
> I am trying to come up with a plan on balancing and monitoring.
> 
> I am shooting for mid May. 1/4 mile and knocking off Olly from top post.


Wooo now, I was going for Olly's record, LOL. Going to be a record breaking year!


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## Karter2 (Nov 17, 2011)

Does anyone know if "Olly" is rebuilding Blackcurrent ??


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## John Metric (Feb 26, 2009)

I am inviting all EV enthusiasts who want to venture down here a place to stay and charge and race against Lonestar EV Racing team's latest car Assault&Battery.
ON Memorial day weekend Saturday May 25th 5pm we will be at Lonestar Motorsports Park in Sealy Texas, racing test-n-tune, bracket racing, 1/8th mile and 1/4 mile.
http://www.lonestarmotorsportspark.com/

ON Sunday Memorial day weekend the 26th 3pm we are invited to Alleycat's Memorial Lock-In Grudge Match.
By special invitation from The Texas Alleycat himself racing Pro-Mod and everything from 4.9 to 7.0 brackets A&B will be there to find a 110mph culprit we can sprint past and start our own grudge race.
http://www.houstonmotorsportspark.com/dSched.htm
I will fly the NEDRA banner, so you could call it a NEDRA event but not a sanctioned event, just a nedra-member thing.....

Plenty of time to make your plans.... 
Metric


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## Karter2 (Nov 17, 2011)

Well, ? did you have any fun John ?
Any 1/4 times ?


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## John Metric (Feb 26, 2009)

Bad luck the little booster pack I built out of old cells couldn't handle the pressure and burnt up in the first run. Also BMS finally bit the dust.


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## Karter2 (Nov 17, 2011)

BMS = Battery Murdering System !
Just surplus weight on a race car !


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## John Metric (Feb 26, 2009)

*Re: Assault&Battery Build Thread*



Karter2 said:


> BMS = Battery Murdering System !
> Just surplus weight on a race car !


Well, ripped the BMS out.
The BMS was like crispy toast with the cells all balanced and happy underneath with the little balance leads all black like a little kid with his hair singed after playing with matches. I had to scrap a lot of heat damage cells in one of the three packs.
Now I have two full packs without their third mate.

The A123 Enerland cells are racing in their third season of HARD racing. Full deep discharging around 70-75C on average with spikes to 90C on each run.
Here are some cell voltage and power statistics on the used third season packs we just removed. We will be moving up to 100C cells soon.


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## Karter2 (Nov 17, 2011)

?? Situation update John ??
Any date target for the next 1/4 mile run ?


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## John Metric (Feb 26, 2009)

We will be taking A&B to EVCCON to show off, but will probably only run her at Sikeston Dragway that Sunday for various reasons. Sorry, that's another 1/8th mile run.

Our world record 5.9 1/8th mile is not quite guaranteed of beating the 9.5 world record 1/4 mile yet. Next time we go we want to be sure. We are putting a few more cells in her. We did 5.9 1/8th with about 460 battery horsepower. 22Ahr pack at 333V nominal.

Our next rev we are shooting for 27Ahr and 355V nominal.
We are going to use ampahaulic.com 100C drag racing "LiPo Seduction" cells.


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## John Metric (Feb 26, 2009)

*Re: Assault&Battery Build Thread*


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## John Metric (Feb 26, 2009)

My garage: A&B posied to go racing.


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## John Metric (Feb 26, 2009)

I am posting a few photos for those who don't have facebook. I have about 300 photos on there and about ten on here, so I am trying to catch up a little here on advertising A&B's success.
I call this one: training the tech inspector.
My caption is "Is the electric dumaflatchy connected to the quick dis-connector whatmajig?"


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## John Metric (Feb 26, 2009)

*Re: Assault&Battery Build Thread*

Lonestar EV Racing will be bringing A&B to EVCCON and then attend a NEDRA Test-n-Tune after EVCCON is over on Sunday at the SIKESTON Dragway from 12-3pm. Check out Dyno Dom's Sikeston Dragway for event info. or Check out NEDRA.COM for info.


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## DanGT86 (Jan 1, 2011)

Can't wait for the test and tune! I am about 2.5 hours from Sikeston so this is probably my best opportunity to see some EV drag racing. Is it an EV only test and tune or are NEDRA members just meeting there for an existing test day with ICE vehicles? Any idea which EV racers will show up?

As of a couple of years ago the shutdown area at Sikeston had a fence and a house at the end of it instead of a catch net so bring your best brakes!!!


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## John Metric (Feb 26, 2009)

DanGT86 said:


> Can't wait for the test and tune! I am about 2.5 hours from Sikeston so this is probably my best opportunity to see some EV drag racing. Is it an EV only test and tune or are NEDRA members just meeting there for an existing test day with ICE vehicles? Any idea which EV racers will show up?
> 
> As of a couple of years ago the shutdown area at Sikeston had a fence and a house at the end of it instead of a catch net so bring your best brakes!!!


It's a NEDRA test-n-tune, meaning we ride on the regularly scheduled existing event program. It should wrap up the EVCCON week pretty nicely.


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## John Metric (Feb 26, 2009)

Here is the latest on A&B. We are installing this week our first 1000 Peak BHP packs. Here they are. They measure 13" by 11" by 8" and weigh about 65lbs each. The three year old LiPo packs from Assault and Battery are going to go BACK into DC Plasma and perhaps we will race them down the track together. The second photo is from Plug in Day Houston. The third shows our BBS system. Battery Balancing System. Plug it in, it balances each cell row off to preset level. Plug and Play.


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## Karter2 (Nov 17, 2011)

Lookin' good !
What will you use as "buss bars" to link them all up John ??


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## DanGT86 (Jan 1, 2011)

Nice pack! So are you just balancing at every charge or is there still an active BMS/LVC of some kind?


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## John Metric (Feb 26, 2009)

*Re: Press Release from NEDRA.COM by Chip Gribben*

*Assault and Battery Breaks New 1/4 Mile Record at *
*9.12 Seconds at 145 mph!*​ 


NEDRA NEWS - TEXAS (October 11, 2013) </EM>NEDRA President John Metric took his Miata, _Assault and Battery_ to an all-time 1/4 mile record for a door slammer at Royal Purple Raceway with a best time of 9.12 at 145 mph!

John ran _Assault and Battery_ with a newly installed 333 volt LiPo pack and two 2000 amp Zilla controllers feeding dual NetGain 9-inch motors. For the first run, John was conservative and set the battery amps to 900 on both speed controllers and sag voltage to 300V.
When he approached the line he accidently knocked the line lock switch off its mount so he had to do the burnout the old fashioned way. At fir,t the car spun the wheels off the line but caught traction a fraction of a second later. John kept pulling it straight and made it down the track. Just for kicks he pulled the parachute and turned a respectable time for his first run which was his best time so far with the car.
60ft 1.578
330' 4.108
660' 6.250 114.42mph
1320' 9.745 139.70mph
The new pack stayed strong and beat the Mustang by .01 seconds.

With a 9.5 run in his sights and the pack warmed up which should gain more HP, John deflated the tires a couple PSI to gain more traction. He told his crew he was planning to leave the Zillas set at 900 amps but John's son yells, "900amps, 900amps, I didn't come all this way to run 900amps." So dad, raised it to 1100amps. Unfortunately, the battery charger was having some programming issues so John was only running the charger at 1/3 power so he charged the lithium batteries the best he could before the second run.
To add some drama to the evening John's Miata danced off the line on it's second run. He had a good burnout, but the front tires went up in the air and the car pirouetted and took a hard right turn directly towards the truck in the other lane. When the wheels came back down the car jerked violently back to the left, but he was able to gain control.
Back in the pits John's crew lowered the tire pressure some more, fixed the line lock switch holder, decided to try to feather on the power with his foot versus just mashing it. Another hour goes by and they head up to the front again for the third launch. John figured he had two good runs left fot the night.
At the line John does a massive burnout and with the latest settings pulls a 9.1!
60ft 1.312
330' 3.729
660' 5.793 118.29mph
1320' 9.161 144.23mph
John deploys the chute for kicks and beat a black Mustang this time.

At this point John is contemplating the eights but decides not to get greedy with the settings and leaves everything where it is and try another run. With five minutes left before the track closes John makes his fastest past ever.
60' 1.315
330' 3.771
660' 5.802 120.88mph
1320' 9.122 145.16mph 
John has a new NEDRA XS/A2 Record. He would like to thank his crew and fellow EV enthusiasts who came out including Nathan Metric, Adam Clark, Kevin Douglass and wife, Keith Howard and Wife (who both drove their EVs.
 
I dont know how to embed the youtube frame usign the editor so here are some links.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZTQA35dBzvA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BOkCUSQYmYk


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## rochesterricer (Jan 5, 2011)

*Re: Press Release from NEDRA.COM by Chip Gribben*

Congrats! So close to breaking into the 8's.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Congrats! Well done.


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## dragonsgate (May 19, 2012)

What is cool is it looks like the other guy jumped the light and you still wupped his butt.


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## TerryH (Jun 9, 2012)

Congrats, John! Awesome job!!


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## John Metric (Feb 26, 2009)

*Re: Assault & Battery Build Thread*

I know some of you aren't on facebook where I do most of my posting on NEDRA group page and Lonestar EV Racing Team page.

So here are some of the latest videos I have posted there.....
A&B nearly smacks the wall....from Friday...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MyXjFt6LDjY 

Slo Motion take off at LMP
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rD5h75eq-vA

Tunnelvision at HMP
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lDqyi8VSIwM

Slo Motion take off at RPR
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jZE44kzIzvE

Hoosier Cam slo-mo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-7-Ay0esfJU

My First Parachute launch
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yoMO0psRS6M

Getting Squirrelly
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C4oK42Z-r_I

NICE HD vid of 9.16 run
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZTQA35dBzvA

A&B takes on Powercruise MSR Houston
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t1OMaUE5_vU

A&B on Royal Purple TV
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BOkCUSQYmYk

Casey Mynott Compilation - Please distribute
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=paALiKUVPLI

Please subscribe to.....
http://www.youtube.com/user/dcplasmaracing

Metric


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## John Metric (Feb 26, 2009)

Lonestar EV Racing has been trying to move on it's 9.122 record, we have been really trying to get to the 8's or the 150's but we have not been having good luck.

We have been to the track three times since the back to back 9.1's.

Two weeks ago Nov. 1, we ran
9.460 at 129mph as a warmup run.
9.460 at 129mph as a warmup run, yeah, I said it twice, I am still in shock at that.
Then busted a 
9.381 at 127mph (5.77 1/8th)
so this would have been good, but the overdrive didnt seem to shift, nor the second overdrive. We determined the overdrive has a slow seal leak and the two overdrives kind fo share the same sump so neither was working very well. So, they don't sell ATF at the track so we ran to the store, and just before closing time we ran
9.285 at 145.93mph. (5.978 120mph 1/8th with a really late shift I did to protect the OD clutches in case it wasn't the oil level)

Then we said ahh this was good, huge top end power, we will turn up the power a little, and should hit the 8's
We line up, then out of nowhere, downpour of rain. Rainout... DRAT!

So then we had an interview with CBS Evening News and got to the track a about 7:am, with the sun low in the sky still. We had to leave home about 4:00am. 
We get there and I notice the darn shifter bottle has no pressure. Seems the last time we filled it and reinstalled it there is a small leak somewhere and just the short time between 4:00am and 7:30am on the roadtrip to the track the bottle drain down.
So, what can we do with no second gear and a top-flight interview coming up?
Also, without second gear the burnout's are rather lame, the tire speed doesn't get up enough to make smoke.
Anyway we take the correspondent Jeff Glor on a quick warm up run, with him sitting in the passenger seat.
and run a 8.7 at 70mph in the 1/8th, the car was all over the place, we went left, we went right, we spun the tires, we piroutted. I was a little scared for him.
Anyway we get back and the car is still powered up, so we pull back into the lanes and try another run.
This time we spin the tires out to about 100ft.
1.7 60ft, 7.1 1/8th at 100mph.
I have the rev limiter at 4500rpm which is about 100mph in first gear.
We coast to a 103mph 1/4mph in 11.5 seconds.
So I told him that was all we were going to do with 200 extra pounds in a 2500lb car adjusted to +/-10lbs left to right in the four link pre-load.
So just after that Keith Shows up with a bottle of CO2 he got somewhere, the rain is starting to come down and we have time to light up the tires one time on camera.
We then headed over to Lonestar EV Performance shop in Humble TX, Adam Clark's place. We recorded some more stuff with DC Plasma, A&B, Adam's two builds and some batteries. They recorded stuff for four hours, and said if it makes it to the big time on CBS Evening News it would be at most two minutes. So we will see if it turns into something. I'll let everyone know.

Finally, we went last nigt to ROyal Purple again, for another attempt at the 8's
The review is mixed. No 8's but three 9.2's, but three squirrelly 9.7's
I could use some help.
We ran best of 9.213 at 147mph. (I know, oh so close).
The main thing is the 60fts at Royal Purple were 1.40,1,42,1.45,1.47,1.49,1.50
This is really dissappointing as we have regularly done 1.31's at Houston Motorports Park. and have done back to back 1.31's at RPR about three weeks ago.
That 0.10-0.15 difference, I have been told, is worth three times that at the top end. Or about 0.3-0.45, that would have been the 8's.

So last night we ran
1.428, 5.95 123, 9.213 147.47
1.475, 6.03 123, 9.298 147.46
1.457, 5.89 118, 9.258 142.48
and three 9.7-9.8's

The car is spongy on the top end, it is schizophrenic on the launch and sometimes at 2000 amps it goes crazy in shifting into second gear. and spins the tires at launch.
Sometimes, it runs straight and true and like it is on glass. Those are good times.
Anyway, looking for suggestions.
We are slightly below the neutral line on the four link, I am thinking about moving it up to neutral.

Metric


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## John Metric (Feb 26, 2009)

Assault&Battery made a peak of 992 battery horsepower (BHP) at Royal Purple Raceway on Nov. 8th on our fifth run. Things to work on, shifting into third and fourth a lot earlier. Getting the suspension to hook so I can push the pedal down all the way. Etc...


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## GerhardRP (Nov 17, 2009)

John Metric said:


> Assault&Battery made a peak of 992 battery horsepower (BHP) at Royal Purple Raceway on Nov. 8th on our fifth run. Things to work on, shifting into third and fourth a lot earlier. Getting the suspension to hook so I can push the pedal down all the way. Etc...


Hi John,
Great stuff. I have time to look at modelling again. So:
Do you have the time slip matching this Zilla data?
Also, do you have Zilla data and time slips for the runs where the shifters failed? Those would be good for proving the motor model.
Gerhard


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## John Metric (Feb 26, 2009)

GerhardRP said:


> Hi John,
> Great stuff. I have time to look at modelling again. So:
> Do you have the time slip matching this Zilla data?
> Also, do you have Zilla data and time slips for the runs where the shifters failed? Those would be good for proving the motor model.
> Gerhard


Time slip results for that chart above...
60ft 1.475
33' 4.031
600' 6.037 123.36
1000' 7.784
1320' 9.298 147.46

I don't have the zilla data for anything other than this run so far. I haven't been able to get over the comm errors.


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## GerhardRP (Nov 17, 2009)

John Metric said:


> I was just thinking the photoshop is actually a five speed.
> 1.56:1
> 1.56*.78 = 1.22:1
> 1.00:1
> ...


Are these the gear ratios you used in the end?


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## John Metric (Feb 26, 2009)

GerhardRP said:


> Are these the gear ratios you used in the end?


You are correct about the five possible speeds. And those are the right calcs. 

However the gear vendors is rated at 1200 horsepower and to the best the GV engineers think it is also about 1200ftlbs torque limited. 


So even though I would like to shift to first over that would technically be about 1500ftlbs times 1.56 or about 2400ftlbs in first, well over the gear vendors rating so I skip that and go to second and then to second over. Then to second double over.


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## DanGT86 (Jan 1, 2011)

How is the track prep from one day to the next at Royal Purple? Were your good 60ft times done at a larger event instead of a test and tune where they might have given more attention to the track?

I have two good friends that are around your power level at the 9-8second barrier and they have similar results depending on the day and who is prepping the track. Some nights at our local track they separate street tires from slicks and the starting line is way better. Other nights all tires launch in both lanes and the starting line suffers. 

Could just be the latest bump in power combined with some bad luck track prep causing the car to be all over the place. 

If nothing else, at least you got to scare the hell out of a CBS news correspondent. Good luck getting it sorted out.


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## John Metric (Feb 26, 2009)

Track prep can be terrible and dew can settle and make a good track poor. 

Car is consistent 1.31, 1.31, 1.31 on good days but same track next week, struggle to get 1.45
And test n tune days I can't help who shows up, sometimes the guy in front of me is a four wheel drive who just drives through the water box and wets the whole tack down.


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## rochesterricer (Jan 5, 2011)

Just saw this news story with your car:


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## John Metric (Feb 26, 2009)

Thanks Rice, forget to post every thing in here too 
I keep Facebook up to date. 

We are going to Palm Beach raceway this Sunday to race in the street car drags put on by Brooks Weisblat of dragtimes.com who is a fan of EVs.


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## rochesterricer (Jan 5, 2011)

I will pray to the racing gods for you to break into the 8's this weekend


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## rochesterricer (Jan 5, 2011)

Looks like you didn't break into the 8's, but you were still plenty fast:


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## John Metric (Feb 26, 2009)

If you guys are really bored, consider listening to the lecture on high performance racing from stock parts I gave at EVCCON 2013. Thanks to Anne Kloppenborg (not pronounced like Arnold would say it because Amsterdam has their own accent you know) at New Electric for filming this. 
I suggest homemade popcorn and beer for this. 

http://youtu.be/KlTgNmdTJ5Q


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## John Metric (Feb 26, 2009)

Also, here is a nice spot on Car Show Television with an interview and street car drag story.
Shot of A&B at 1:01
interview about half way in and the Simmons v Metric grudge race near the end.



http://www.carshowtelevision.com/cars-and-coffee-in-the-morning-gets-you-ready-for-street-car-drags/


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## RGad (Sep 14, 2013)

Hi John,

Thanks for posting your lecture from EVCCON - I watched the whole thing today. 

I really enjoyed hearing about your battery selection process, but couldn't make out the first graph in the video (the one with the left side cut off at approx. 11:30). Is that spreadsheet or any screenshot of it available online?

Thanks!


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## John Metric (Feb 26, 2009)

RGad said:


> Hi John,
> 
> Thanks for posting your lecture from EVCCON - I watched the whole thing today.
> 
> ...


Absolutely, I can supply the entire spreadsheet. Give me your email and I can email it to you.


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## RGad (Sep 14, 2013)

PM sent - thanks John!


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## John Metric (Feb 26, 2009)

We went to Royal Purple Raceway in Baytown instead of HMP due to rain in Houston. The nearly 2 hour drive and showing up about 1.5 hours late paid off. 
lately we have been running with both zillas maxed to 2000amps and motor volts at 210V
This clips the zilla power limit back to about 1700amps near 200V.
The only real adjustments we have been making is to the stance, four link pre-load and spring heights. It has made a huge difference. The car finally is getting the front end in the air and it is not twisting the chassis over on its right side anymore. It was leaving nice and straight on a test-n-tune night.


The warm up run was 9.364 at 143.16mph 1.47 60ft at 15psi
Second run, only change was we dropped to 13psi, we left really strong but right about the 1/8th mile at 120mph both controllers tripped and I coasted down the track. But they came back after the race. It was like an overspeed protection, I will have to check the sensor. Not sure what happened. However, That run was 9.379 at 120mph
Third run only change we made was to drop to 11psi. The car raised up on its rear tires and felt really good.
60ft was 1.349
1/8th mile 5.730 126.26mph
1/4 mile 8.913 147.99mph.

So in summary, for a short day, nearly a rain out. Assault & Battery blasted past the 9.0 second barrier and posted a 8.913 147.99 mph
First door car in the eights (ET Club), first door car over 125mph in the eighth(Roger Hedlund Club), and we will apply for eighth mile record 5.730 126.26mph. 
Thanks to all the folks that make it possible.
Keith Howard, Frank Fuller, Nathan Metric, Adam Clark, Brian Castor, Aaron Castor, my first wife Jennifer. 














We were joined by two other EV's out there. They plugged in near our pit site. They stayed really late and I was wondering why they kept looking at their watches like they were late and I was keeping them. Turns out they were trying to top off their cars to make it home. We all departed about 12:30am right before closing time and went to Waffle House for 1:00am breakfast. Got home about 3:30am

This evening we went to Adam Clark's house to work on our top secret project code named Ghidorah.


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## palmer_md (Jul 22, 2011)

Congratulations, that is quite an achievement!


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Congrats John - so awesome to see a doorslammer EV in the 8's!!! 

I don't see a wheelie bar - you could probably do that on drag radials, with plates, and claim "fastest/quickest/first EV street car/in da 8's"...

"8SEC EV" on a license plate!


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## Yabert (Feb 7, 2010)

Awesome! It's a really nice new. Congrats.


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## rochesterricer (Jan 5, 2011)

Congrats John! That barrier certainly didn't go down easy, but we didn't even have to wait till summer. Next step: get a Shiva or two and go for the 7's


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## John Metric (Feb 26, 2009)

toddshotrods said:


> Congrats John - so awesome to see a doorslammer EV in the 8's!!!
> 
> I don't see a wheelie bar - you could probably do that on drag radials, with plates, and claim "fastest/quickest/first EV street car/in da 8's"...
> 
> "8SEC EV" on a license plate!


Due to poor image quality you probably can't see it but I was sporting a license plate. I felt the parachute was jinxing me.
Also, we use DOT Hoosier Quick Time, does that count?


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## John Metric (Feb 26, 2009)

rochesterricer said:


> Congrats John! That barrier certainly didn't go down easy, but we didn't even have to wait till summer. Next step: get a Shiva or two and go for the 7's


I would love to if I could find the motor combination that could utilize it.
Right now we are keeping up with 8.9 index rail dragsters.....
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=645776915475826

With two stock Netgain warp9's.
We run 210V on the motor and the maximum a a zilla Z2K can put out at that voltage.....on each motor (4000amps total).
I am told that the Warp11 has the same maximum voltage.

I am open to ideas as to where to go next.


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## DanGT86 (Jan 1, 2011)

Ah, the old street car debate shows up in the EV world too.

As far as where to go next I think there is more in there at the starting line. At such a low weight there is no reason that car couldn't 60ft in the mid 1.2 range. Just chasing the perfect launch could keep you occupied for the rest of the season. 

Nice to see the car launching well. It was getting a little sketchy for a while there. Congrats! Looking forward to what happens next.


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## John Metric (Feb 26, 2009)

DanGT86 said:


> Ah, the old street car debate shows up in the EV world too.
> 
> As far as where to go next I think there is more in there at the starting line. At such a low weight there is no reason that car couldn't 60ft in the mid 1.2 range. Just chasing the perfect launch could keep you occupied for the rest of the season.
> 
> Nice to see the car launching well. It was getting a little sketchy for a while there. Congrats! Looking forward to what happens next.


Yes, it was a bit dicey, nearly hitting the wall several times, the car in the other lane at least once. We have been doing nothing but chassis adjustments recently for the low Vcg in the EV world. It has really helped.
BTW
We were shown Wallace Racing Calculators by John Wayland.
We use it to estimate our horsepower and 0-60mph times.
http://www.wallaceracing.com/Calculators.htm

Using our record setting 1/8th mile info from Friday, this is the site's output:
"Your HP computed from your vehicle ET is 665.83 flywheel HP and 599.25 rear wheel HP."
"Your HP computed from your vehicle MPH is 812.87 flywheel HP and 731.58 rear wheel HP."
"Your 0 to 60mph time is: 1.29 seconds"


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## dougingraham (Jul 26, 2011)

John Metric said:


> With two stock Netgain warp9's.
> We run 210V on the motor and the maximum a a zilla Z2K can put out at that voltage.....on each motor (4000amps total).
> I am told that the Warp11 has the same maximum voltage.
> 
> I am open to ideas as to where to go next.


A pair of WarP 11 HV's would be the next thing to look at. Voltage is rated at 288 and the torque is higher at the same current as compared to the WarP9. I don't know if you can run 2000 amps with them. But 210*4000 = 840kw or 1126 HP into the motors. 840000/288 = 2916 amps or 1458 amps per motor. So even if you ran at 288 volts and 1458 amps you should be seeing similar power levels.

Of course they weigh a little more.


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## Karter2 (Nov 17, 2011)

Hi John,.. Well done on the record.
do you know what voltage your motors actually see at max current draw ?
Im believe the zilla data can show that.
Just remembering that Evometrics data showed almost 100v drop at max amps ( yes, crap battery !) ..but it would be good to know if you have are dropping voltage anywhere.?


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## rochesterricer (Jan 5, 2011)

John Metric said:


> I would love to if I could find the motor combination that could utilize it.
> Right now we are keeping up with 8.9 index rail dragsters.....
> https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=645776915475826
> 
> ...


Shorty before he got out of the game, Ron mentioned custom Warp motors that used a special racing compound in the brushes. Apparently, the compound was too soft to last on the street, but he quoted some pretty impressive numbers for amp and voltage tolerance in racing use. He was going to move to these motors, but parted out the car before he could. I'll try and find his post.

Edit: found it. Although the amp numbers aren't quite as high as I remember.

http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forum...in-racing-motors-70167.html?highlight=brushes


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

John Metric said:


> ...Also, we use DOT Hoosier Quick Time, does that count? I...


Counts in my book. It does open a lot of debate, that drag radials usually squash. I've seen where cars have even posted respectable autocross times on drag radials, so other than accelerated wear they're hard to debate.

Like I said though, the Hoosier QTs work for me - congrats! 






John Metric said:


> ...I am open to ideas as to where to go next.





dougingraham said:


> A pair of WarP 11 HV's would be the next thing to look at...


I agree with Doug. CroDriver posted impressive (dyno) numbers with his Husted-modded 11HVs. No one has taken up where he left off (to develop his own motors for his supercar)...

The 288v ceiling and 8K red line, in theory, seem to be the answer to the RPM issue with DC motors. I admit to getting caught up in the AC thing, but my reasons are a bit different. I think there's still a lot left on the table with DC.

One of the tricks I have always wanted to explore is with the brushes and comm. Either the motor Berube sold Lawless (currently in Rocket), or the one he bought to replace it, has triple brush sets. I actually found a similar 13" motor on eBay once and bid on it, after an enthusiastic thumbs-up from Major, but didn't win the auction. Someone here, recently, destroyed their comm and had it replaced by Warfield. That kind of confirmed the possibility of a thought I had before - to have the comm replaced with one for triple brush sets - but really never even looked into.

So, there are two possible avenues to enhance a DC motor, right off the bat - triple brush set comms, and interpoles - that haven't been fully explored. Another, that has been tossed around on this board, but never really, fully, explored (to the best of my knowledge) is variable brush timing. This is the 21st century. Just like computer-controlled IC engines use timing and other tricks to control detonation, it seems that DC could use similar tactics to control arcing.

What is commonly done to "high-end" DC "race" motors:


turn the case and powdercoat - pretty but not necessary
sometimes Kevlar banding
slotted brush holders for timing advance
(rare occasion) some type of variable timing adjustment - I think all manual
Glyptal
Good brushes
In other words, not much more than stock, which you have proven by running awesome numbers with stock motors. No one, has dug in to really figure out how to make the glorified forklift motor a real race motor. Maybe it's not possible, but it certainly doesn't seem to have been tried.










rochesterricer said:


> Shorty before he got out of the game, Ron mentioned custom Warp motors that used a special racing compound in the brushes. Apparently, the compound was too soft to last on the street, but he quoted some pretty impressive numbers for amp and voltage tolerance in racing use. He was going to move to these motors, but parted out the car before he could. I'll try and find his post.
> 
> Edit: found it. Although the amp numbers aren't quite as high as I remember.
> 
> http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forum...in-racing-motors-70167.html?highlight=brushes



Triple brush sets.  Too bad the pics are gone.


I spoke to (I think George at Netgains) about Helwig the racing brushes. The downside, for me, was that they were ONLY to be used under full power. The vehicle would even have to be towed back to the pits. Part throttle would damage the comm. He was honest with me about that, and told me they wouldn't meet my needs. Not sure if anyone ever used them in an actual race car?


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## rochesterricer (Jan 5, 2011)

toddshotrods said:


> Triple brush sets.  Too bad the pics are gone.
> 
> 
> I spoke to (I think George at Netgains) about Helwig the racing brushes. The downside, for me, was that they were ONLY to be used under full power. The vehicle would even have to be towed back to the pits. Part throttle would damage the comm. He was honest with me about that, and told me they wouldn't meet my needs. Not sure if anyone ever used them in an actual race car?


Well that would certainly be annoying, even in a dedicated racecar.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

rochesterricer said:


> Well that would certainly be annoying, even in a dedicated racecar.


It's common in dragracing, with high compression, close tolerance, IC engines. You warm them up, burnout, stage, run, shut it down, and tow it back. We used little mini bikes for the all-out, bar-n-slick, dragbikes. The lighter cars sometimes use ATVs. Some use trucks. So, it wouldn't seem uncommon/out of place at the drag strip.

I like street-legal vehicles, and driving them on the street, which would be pretty much impossible, unless you swap and re-seat brushes for the occasion - _that_ would be annoying, to me. Plus, I like vehicles that can do whatever they are capable of, at the drop of the proverbial dime, with minor changes, at most...


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Put some small in wheel hub motors in the front wheels for driving back


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

JRP3 said:


> Put some small in wheel hub motors in the front wheels for driving back


...and putt-putting around on the street!


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## John Metric (Feb 26, 2009)

Karter2 said:


> Hi John,.. Well done on the record.
> do you know what voltage your motors actually see at max current draw ?
> Im believe the zilla data can show that.
> Just remembering that Evometrics data showed almost 100v drop at max amps ( yes, crap battery !) ..but it would be good to know if you have are dropping voltage anywhere.?


I am not getting a lot of data in Assault and Battery due to the huge amount of electric noise keeps knocking out the USB communication to my data loggin computer. Here is one of the data runs I did get.

from my facebook page "Lonestar EV Racing Team" where I keep a lot of charts.









You can see the settings there on the title block.
3800motor amps (1900 per zilla) and 200 motor volts.
This is one of the better charts I have on A&B and it is full of crazy stuff.
I spun the tires in first gear (low amps), didn't have the pedal all the way down most of the time, then spun the tires in second gear, then got completely off the throttle, then put it in third gear and waited entirely too long to go into fourth.

I have plenty of charts on DC Plasma.

The way you state the question "voltage drop at max current draw".
I don't think it works that way for the motor unless you are talking about battery voltage drop?
Then yes you can see the battery voltage drop as the motor power increases.



https://www.facebook.com/pages/LoneStar-EV-Racing-Team/211977712189084


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## John Metric (Feb 26, 2009)

> Triple brush sets.  Too bad the pics are gone.
> 
> I spoke to (I think George at Netgains) about Helwig the racing brushes. The downside, for me, was that they were ONLY to be used under full power. The vehicle would even have to be towed back to the pits. Part throttle would damage the comm. He was honest with me about that, and told me they wouldn't meet my needs. Not sure if anyone ever used them in an actual race car?


I go through so many brushes Helwig made me a dealer for the Race Grade brushes. I have perhaps the only online store selling those racing brushes. 
www.ampahaulic.com
I just replaced my second set after racing on that set for 12 months. and only on high current. The comms look fine. There was some trailing edge chipping. I always drive back to the pits under my own power and occasionally go out and do two 1/8th mile blasts in a row.
I sell the 2-brush radial mounted helwig brush holders but have yet to actually sell one as they are quite expensive. Mike Pethel has the only triple brush netgains I know of.
I have pictures of it if anyone wants to see them. George said he is not going to make any more of those, too much hassle. Also, they are not making any more WarpHV models unless someone orders QTY=10.


----------



## Frank (Dec 6, 2008)

BTW, variable brush timing has been used by several racers...


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

John Metric said:


> ...I always drive back to the pits under my own power...


That's actually good to know - I was told that would not be possible. Maybe the point was to err on the side of caution, since no one had actually used them (in the real world) at that point (I think - they were still "coming" at that point).





John Metric said:


> ...Mike Pethel has the only triple brush netgains I know of.
> I have pictures of it if anyone wants to see them...


I would like to see that. I don't think the motor Berube had was a Netgains motor, and the one I saw on eBay definitely wasn't.






John Metric said:


> ...George said he is not going to make any more of those, too much hassle. Also, they are not making any more WarpHV models unless someone orders QTY=10.


That sucks, doubly, but makes sense - there just isn't enough demand for serious innovation in DC.








Frank said:


> BTW, variable brush timing has been used by several racers...


I meant developing a computer-controlled version, that senses what's happening with the motor and vehicle and adjusts timing accordingly. That's one of the big keys to EFI ICE making ridiculous power. You can right up to the edge because the computer can read and make adjustments so fast. In DC, we're still in the carburetor and mechanical advance springs in the distributor phase.



I hate to admit this, but I am beginning to remember why I started the migration to AC...


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## John Metric (Feb 26, 2009)

toddshotrods said:


> I would like to see that.


Netgain/Helwig Custom 3 brush-in-a-row radial-mounted.
Notice the connections tabs sticking straight out not through the post location.


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## Karter2 (Nov 17, 2011)

John Metric said:


> The way you state the question "voltage drop at max current draw".
> I don't think it works that way for the motor unless you are talking about battery voltage drop?
> Then yes you can see the battery voltage drop as the motor power increases.


 Maybe i am misunderstanding how the Zilla functions.
At 0.5 sec the pedal is max(dk blue), motor has maximum amps(red), but only ~50 motor volts(lt blue) ?
..and the motor voltage seems to ramp up progressively to maximum at ~3 secs ?
Is that a "programmed" power ramp, or am i reading it all wrong ?


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## John Metric (Feb 26, 2009)

Karter2 said:


> Maybe i am misunderstanding how the Zilla functions.
> At 0.5 sec the pedal is max(dk blue), motor has maximum amps(red), but only ~50 motor volts(lt blue) ?
> ..and the motor voltage seems to ramp up progressively to maximum at ~3 secs ?
> Is that a "programmed" power ramp, or am i reading it all wrong ?


There is a ramp but it is less than two data points or about 0.2 seconds. The voltage ramp in this chart at the beginning from "0.5sec" to 3 seconds is a consequence of the motor not some ramp in the controller.

It is a only current controller.
I mash the pedal normally to 100%, it tries to give 100% times the current limit I have entered which is 1900 amps by increasing the duty cycle or until it hits another limit, like controller temperature, motor voltage maximum, battery sag voltage limit, and a few others.
At near zero rpm you can make 1900amps to each motor with about 50volts because it is just a resistor at that point. Once the motor starts spinning, it is resisting the current cause of bemf.


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## John Metric (Feb 26, 2009)

John Metric said:


> There is a ramp but it is less than two data points or about 0.2 seconds. The voltage ramp in this chart at the beginning from "0.5sec" to 3 seconds is a consequence of the motor not some ramp in the controller.
> 
> It is a only current controller.
> I mash the pedal normally to 100%, it tries to give 100% times the current limit I have entered which is 1900 amps by increasing the duty cycle or until it hits another limit, like controller temperature, motor voltage maximum, battery sag voltage limit, and a few others.
> At near zero rpm you can make 1900amps to each motor with about 50volts because it is just a resistor at that point. Once the motor starts spinning, it is resisting the current cause of bemf.


From my DIY DCP - DC Plasma build thread... I have a lot more nice charts there....


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## Karter2 (Nov 17, 2011)

Thanks John.
so basicly, the Zilla is limiting the motor current to a max value (1900A) by controlling the applied voltage,..and that increases with rpm as the back EMF changes ?


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

John Metric said:


> Netgain/Helwig Custom 3 brush-in-a-row radial-mounted.
> Notice the connections tabs sticking straight out not through the post location...


Interesting. Those are 9" motors? Whose car?

Thanks for sharing!


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## John Metric (Feb 26, 2009)

Karter2 said:


> Thanks John.
> so basicly, the Zilla is limiting the motor current to a max value (1900A) by controlling the applied voltage,..and that increases with rpm as the back EMF changes ?


You could say it controls the applied voltage. But not by direct measurement direct control or lookup table, it just simply raises duty cycle until it hits one of the limits as described. Raising the duty cycle prior to hitting the emf limit has the outcome of raising the voltage assuming you have the battery to back it up.


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## John Metric (Feb 26, 2009)

toddshotrods said:


> Interesting. Those are 9" motors? Whose car?
> 
> Thanks for sharing!


This was built by Mike Pethel in CA. It's a BMW 3.0 
He is on Facebook only I think. He had the helwig 2 brush radials and gave them to Michael Bream who climbed pikes peak with them. That makes me think they are 11's.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

John Metric said:


> This was built by Mike Pethel in CA. It's a BMW 3.0
> He is on Facebook only I think. He had the helwig 2 brush radials and gave them to Michael Bream who climbed pikes peak with them. That makes me think they are 11's.


Gotcha - they look little in there.


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## kennybobby (Aug 10, 2012)

*Look up Daikaiju (not the band, although they are good)*

i can't believe all you guys missed his big 'Traikaiju' hint-- what do you think is next with a gigantic godzilla-killin 3- headed monster?

Maybe you need to try using shielded comm and data cables and put the hairball in a faraday cage to block the EMI noise. Anything in or around the motor controller switching 2000 amps is going to be seeing lots of emi and needs appropriate countermeasures.

An ethernet cable only works on the internet because of features in the protocol--it is used because it is a low-cost cheap-ass twisted-pair piece of copper wires and the protocol has error checking and automatic re-transmission, etc. It is not a good solution for a comm cable in an EV.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

I wasn't sure if it's a reference to running three zillas or if Otmar is actually building his Trizilla three phase AC zilla.


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## rochesterricer (Jan 5, 2011)

JRP3 said:


> I wasn't sure if it's a reference to running three zillas or if Otmar is actually building his Trizilla three phase AC zilla.


He is still developing the Trizilla AC controller, but only in his spare time so it is slow going. It will likely be quite a while before it is ready for production, if he even decides go forward with production at all.


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## John Metric (Feb 26, 2009)

*Re: Look up Daikaiju (not the band, although they are good)*



kennybobby said:


> i can't believe all you guys missed his big 'Traikaiju' hint-- what do you think is next with a gigantic godzilla-killin 3- headed monster?
> 
> Maybe you need to try using shielded comm and data cables and put the hairball in a faraday cage to block the EMI noise. Anything in or around the motor controller switching 2000 amps is going to be seeing lots of emi and needs appropriate countermeasures.
> 
> An ethernet cable only works on the internet because of features in the protocol--it is used because it is a low-cost cheap-ass twisted-pair piece of copper wires and the protocol has error checking and automatic re-transmission, etc. It is not a good solution for a comm cable in an EV.


Thanks, I was thinking I was getting too old for anyone to remember that. I think the first movie featuring Ghidorah was in black and white.
Another hint, already purchased:1400Amp 1200V IGBTs peak current to 2800amps.

Yes, how would you go about ensuring a faraday cage? Would aluminum work or does the metal have to have high magnetic flux?


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## rtz (Jul 3, 2013)

Is there any elegant or reliable way to do a "controller bypass"?


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## kennybobby (Aug 10, 2012)

*EMI noise suppression*

To block the electric field noise you need the outer surface to be a good electrical conductor, e.g. silver, copper, gold, aluminum. Then under that surface you need a good magnetic conductor to block the magnetic field noise, i.e. an iron-based sheet metal. The high flux steels have special grain structures and high silicon content so thinner sheets can be used to lower the weight, but the cost is more. 

In your case i'm guessing that the Magnetic Field is more of an issue, so the electrical conductivity is secondary and plain old sheet metal will conduct both. Just to get started you could make a test in the garage using some thin sheet metal to form a box with lid and solder closed any side seams. Later you can get fancy with the gold-plated mu metal... 

The big problem is likely the exposed wiring, so you will need some sort of twisted, shielded cable for signal pairs with the shield terminated at one end to 'ground', i.e. lowest voltage point. May also need to put some long ferrite clamps around the signal wires (possibly a loop thru the ferrite) to block it further. As a quick and dirty test you could try wrapping the comm cable with aluminum foil and put a loop of signal wires thru a ferrite bead clamp just to see if it helps. 

Post a picture of the controller showing the wiring (power and comm)--maybe we could see some routing solutions.


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## rochesterricer (Jan 5, 2011)

*Re: EMI noise suppression*

Just came across this on Youtube. John comes in around the 12 minute mark, with more EV racing coverage near the end.


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## John Metric (Feb 26, 2009)

HOUSTON 1/2 MILE event put on by US Mile Racing.
Lonestar EV Racing Team took Assault&Battery to the Inaugural "US Mile" Houston 1/2 Mile Event. We made three runs, progressively faster with the best speed, 165.5mph in the 1/2 mile and a whopping 1/4 mile speed of 145.6mph. That 1/4 mile speed even impressed me as our best on a drag race strip has been 148mph. I don't know our 1/4 mile ET but I bet it was one of the best out there. This was extremely impressive to me because this was grooved concrete, so not only was the tire traction poor due to concrete, but it was about 1/2 air due to the grooves too. Our motor settings were 1600amps and 190V to each motor. The video is about 10 minutes. Thanks to all the supporters out there. See the credits at the end of the clip. The first run is supposed to be 140-160 to move up to a B license. We ran a 160.5mph then a 164 then a 165mph.




http://youtu.be/heEOnlYiEoM

Not our fastest run of the day, but it was the most crowd-pleasing. Chirping the tires all the way through fourth gear will get the crowd going. — at Ellington Field.
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=673101042743413



John Metric
WWW.NEDRA.COM
DCPlasmaRacing on Youtube
LoneStar EV Racing on Facebook
Facebook Build-Thread Racing Slalom
DIYElect. DCP Garage Build-Thread
DIYElect. AnB Garage Build-Thread
Pennocks Fiero Forum
EVAlbum AnB DCP
www.ampahaulic.com
979-665-5621


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## Ziggythewiz (May 16, 2010)

Nuts! Missed it. I work across the fence from Ellington...


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## bwjunkie (Jul 31, 2013)

AWESOME video! 
I took my dad for a ride this past weekend, and he mentioned how it feels like a golf cart, and I'm happy to say this video feels like a REALLY fast golf cart, lol.

josh


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## John Metric (Feb 26, 2009)

Look out for King Ghidorah. Here is a shot of the plasma shooting out of two of it's heads. OK, this was really just 12V output from two of the three phases and through a low pass filter, but I am impressed I have made it this far. Next thing is to turn a motor with it. I built a small 3 phase 50A IGBT prototype before trying the 1400A/2800A units. I brought home my 20V 500A power supply from my lab, I think I will use that instead of the batteries, its got nice VDC and Amp readouts.









Notice the similarities....Ghidorah-three phase AC








Godzilla - Just single phase DC









Someone noted that Godzilla has some losses in the above photo.
Assault and Battery has some losses too.


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## Brute Force (Aug 28, 2010)

Congratulations on the awesome runs at Ellington! 
Figures, the first event I'm not there with the T&S crew...


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## John Metric (Feb 26, 2009)

Brute Force said:


> Congratulations on the awesome runs at Ellington!
> Figures, the first event I'm not there with the T&S crew...


First run at Ellington filmed by Flip Fletcher

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=10203985100817200&set=o.211977712189084&type=2&theater


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## John Metric (Feb 26, 2009)

Little Video teaser from Motorweek....

http://iconosquare.com/p/770402754538284099_394183880


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## TerryH (Jun 9, 2012)

Awesome John!!! Can't wait to see more!!


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## John Metric (Feb 26, 2009)

8:30 into Motorweek's latest show, Assault&Battery, Lonestar EV Racing Team, National Electric Drag Racing Association makes big impression. Producer Zach Maskell producer did a great job.
http://video.pbs.org/video/2365328431/


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Nice piece.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Nice! Kudos.


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## Frank (Dec 6, 2008)

Good stuff!


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## jeff mccabe (Feb 23, 2010)

Very cool John !
Keep making us look good !

Jeff


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## epyon (Mar 20, 2008)

With two stock Netgain warp9's.
We run 210V on the motor and the maximum a a zilla Z2K can put out at that voltage.....on each motor (4000amps total).
I am told that the Warp11 has the same maximum voltage.
I am open to ideas as to where to go next.[/QUOTE said:


> Two shivas an two Warp 13 into a AWD transfer case !!!!! What can I say , I still live on Monster Island .


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## hostage (Aug 2, 2007)

toddshotrods said:


> Gotcha - they look little in there.


 Those are HyPerDrive 9's built especially for Mike Pethel - the ONLY ones ever produced. He previously had dual 11's in the car but wanted more RPMs per volt (HP) and lower torque. You can check out a youtube video of him - search for the 38 second clip. Where many creatures leave a scent to mark their territory, Pethel leaves the scent of burning rubber and black marks all around his neighborhood!


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## John Metric (Feb 26, 2009)

OK, we are repairing Assault n Battery, should be ready to go in a week or so.
Question is should we put the same motors back in or put in the new four motor Transpulse9 system with permanent 1:2 overdrive gear box we are building for "Panic in Detroit". I think to test it out first, get some data and then to build a drop in unit to the rear engine dragster.
I will be posting a PiD build thread soon.


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## TerryH (Jun 9, 2012)

I'm looking VERY forward to the Panic in Detroit build thread!!!


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## dougingraham (Jul 26, 2011)

John Metric said:


> Question is should we put the same motors back in or put in the new four motor Transpulse9 system with permanent 1:2 overdrive gear box we are building for "Panic in Detroit". I think to test it out first, get some data and then to build a drop in unit to the rear engine dragster.
> I will be posting a PiD build thread soon.


Sure, put the new power system in the newer old car as a test bed. Set some records. Log some data.

Looking forward to seeing it happen.


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## Frank (Dec 6, 2008)

Only if you'll use it on the street and can collect some data. Will PiD be finished this season?


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## GerhardRP (Nov 17, 2009)

John Metric said:


> OK, we are repairing Assault n Battery, should be ready to go in a week or so.
> Question is should we put the same motors back in or put in the new four motor Transpulse9 system with permanent 1:2 overdrive gear box we are building for "Panic in Detroit". I think to test it out first, get some data and then to build a drop in unit to the rear engine dragster.
> I will be posting a PiD build thread soon.


I would suggest the original motors, but a re-arranged drive train. First element would be a permanent overdrive. The second element would be your old first ger. Third the reverser. You have a two speed system near traction limit in first at full power and thena single shift.


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## John Metric (Feb 26, 2009)

Well, I think I am going to take all your advice and put the new gear box with half the old motors (Warps) and half new impulse's and take a bunch of data.
and set a new record with AnB before committing to the new car.
It's going to be a 1200+BHP Miata, phew!


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## caolivieri (Apr 23, 2011)

John Metric said:


> 1200+BHP Miata, phew!


oh myyyyy


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## John Metric (Feb 26, 2009)

nope, changed my mind we are going to Panic in Detroit right away.
Nearly have all the moving parts completed.


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## DanGT86 (Jan 1, 2011)

Nice! Whats the weight on that thing? Wonder if the swamprat 37 crew are going to be mad when you beat them to 200mph


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## hostage (Aug 2, 2007)

Maybe Major will chime in here, but using unmatched dual motors, the weaker of the pair (ImPulse 9) will end up laboring much harder while the more powerful motors (WarP 9) will basically be along for the ride... Pretty certain you'll destroy the two ImPulse motors in this configuration.... (understanding that "more/less" are relative to the Amps being drawn - the ImPulse 9's will draw MORE amps than the WarP 9's, and if both motors are seeing the same voltage, then the WarP 9s will spin slower (along for the ride...)...) Hope this makes sense?


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## Karter2 (Nov 17, 2011)

Nah !
Think of it like a tandem bike with Lance Armstrong ( cof !) on the front and Elen on the back !
Providing they are both trying their hardest (full throttle) , and the gearing is correct, they will both get a max work out and their efforts will be summed up to give more total power.
One will burn more energy than the other, but Neither will blow up as a result of the others efforts.


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

hostage said:


> Maybe Major will chime in here, but using unmatched dual motors, the weaker of the pair (ImPulse 9) will end up laboring much harder while the more powerful motors (WarP 9) will basically be along for the ride... Pretty certain you'll destroy the two ImPulse motors in this configuration.... (understanding that "more/less" are relative to the Amps being drawn - the ImPulse 9's will draw MORE amps than the WarP 9's, and if both motors are seeing the same voltage, then the WarP 9s will spin slower (along for the ride...)...) Hope this makes sense?


Not sure I understand the complete application. But I think  if you have a I9 and a W9 shaft coupled so they are same RPM and with independent controllers, they will share in proportion to their torque/Amp when in current limit. Due to difference in the speed/Amp characteristics, one will come out of current limit before the other and reduce torque at the lower current. 

Knowing how John drives these things, it would happen for a second or so and I don't think it will be a big problem. It could mean the he will get less than maximum performance from one of the motors if the RPM go that high. I've never run two different motors like this so it will be interesting to see what happens.


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