# [EVDL] DC-DC Converter Recommendation



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

I'm running an Elcon rated for 132-168V. It's a 25A unit and seems to be
working fine for my Honda del Sol. I still have the standard battery on the
del Sol. I got it from EV America. Shipping was quick.

Mike

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf
Of corbin dunn
Sent: Saturday, April 09, 2011 5:35 PM
To: EVDL Discussion List
Subject: [EVDL] DC-DC Converter Recommendation

Hi All,
My IOTA DLS-55 seems to have bit the dust (again). I haven't torn it apart
yet, but I know I'm going to replace it.

Does anyone know the rough current requirements for a standard VW bug? 55
amps seemed excessive, so I'm wondering if a 25 amp converter will be
sufficient. Yes, I should measure it, but I don't quite know how with what I
have.

I do run with a 12v accessory battery, but it is tiny. I only turn on the
DC-DC converter via a relay when "key on" happens; all other times it is
off. I think this is part of the problem why my IOTA failed; it doesn't like
the constant inrush of current, even with the current limiter fix I put into
it.

I'm considering the Kelly HWZ Series DC/DC Converter 156V to 13.5V 25A

http://kellycontroller.com/hwz-series-dcdc-converter-156v-to-135v-25a-p-536.
html ($150)

Other possibilities:

Beltronix (35A, or with forced air cooling, higher).Unknown price.
http://www.belktronix.com/isodcdc.html

Maybe a Zivan ($525 -- pricey)
http://www.evolveelectrics.com/DC-DC%20Converters.html#elcondcdc

Any advice on what works well for a 154v nominal pack?

-corbin

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Hi Bill and all,

Thanks for the advice. Anyone else have a brand they are running that they are happy with?

RE: swapping input leads -- the thing that is failing is the inrush limiter; they just crumble after a while, probably from it running too hot. (So, the input rectifier is out of the equation as I removed it). I have two more lower resistance/higher amp ones that I may try for a while to see how they work while I wait for another converter.

Has anyone used a Mean Well SP-500? IE:

http://www.meanwell.com/search/sp-500/sp-500-spec.pdf

It sort of looks similar to an IOTA, so I'm not sure it is good. 

I also found some solid state Vicor's on ebay that I'm considering:

http://cgi.ebay.com/VICOR-DC-DC-Converter-VI-251-09-200V-250W-/190520444458?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item2c5be7462a#ht_500wt_913 

However, only 20amps out (250w), but I hear solid states are better for reliability and efficiency. Can these guy's be run in parallel? Maybe I'll get two and have 40 amp output.

-corbin





> Bill Dube wrote:
> 
> > You might try reversing the polarity of the input leads. Can't hurt to try.
> >
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Neither the inrush limiter or the rectifier are actually required for you application. Of course if I remember correctly you first started on this because you were blowing a fuse somewhere, which lead to adding the inrush limiters.
You can just hook your DC/DC straight up to your pack with neither of these and leave it that way. There will be a big snap when you make the connection, but after that nothing, and doing this on occasion should not significantly shorten the life on any of the components. If you want to frequently connect/disconnect your DC/DC use two switches and one resistor. Turn on the first switch which connects the DC/DC through the resistor thus limiting the inrush current. Once the DC/DC is fully on, use the second switch to bypass the resistor. Some people like to use a light bulb as the limiting resistor as it gives you a visual indication of when you can flip the second switch. The inrush limiter you have been struggling with is a component that essentially achieves these two steps for you automatically, however for some reason it is not working out for you, but you can always go back and do it manually. 
damon

> From: [email protected]
> Date: Sat, 9 Apr 2011 21:25:40 -0700
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] DC-DC Converter Recommendation
> 
> Hi Bill and all,
> 
> Thanks for the advice. Anyone else have a brand they are running that they are happy with?
> 
> RE: swapping input leads -- the thing that is failing is the inrush limiter; they just crumble after a while, probably from it running too hot. (So, the input rectifier is out of the equation as I removed it). I have two more lower resistance/higher amp ones that I may try for a while to see how they work while I wait for another converter.
> 
> Has anyone used a Mean Well SP-500? IE:
> 
> http://www.meanwell.com/search/sp-500/sp-500-spec.pdf
> 
> It sort of looks similar to an IOTA, so I'm not sure it is good. 
> 
> I also found some solid state Vicor's on ebay that I'm considering:
> 
> http://cgi.ebay.com/VICOR-DC-DC-Converter-VI-251-09-200V-250W-/190520444458?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item2c5be7462a#ht_500wt_913 
> 
> However, only 20amps out (250w), but I hear solid states are better for reliability and efficiency. Can these guy's be run in parallel? Maybe I'll get two and have 40 amp output.
> 
> -corbin
> 
> 
> 
>


> Bill Dube wrote:
> >
> > > You might try reversing the polarity of the input leads. Can't hurt to try.
> > >
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

As everyone knows, the IOTA was never intended for an EV DC-DC converter.

They are very popular in hobbyist EV conversions, probably due to the low
cost (read cheap).

I use the Vicor modules you are inquiring about below. You do not want
the 12 volt output version since the HV trip is 10% or 13.2 volts, too low
for a 12 volt system. You would want the 15 volt output module, which can
be trimmed down to the desired 14 volts or so. The VI series masters
cannot be paralleled; a booster module (s) is required for the slaves. 
One master and one slave = 200 + 200 watts = 400 watts or 26.6 A.

The Vicor modules are not "plug in" ready to go. The modules require
mounting on a heat sink, input and output fusing, reverse polarity
protection and LC input filtering.

That said, Vicor modules are extremely high quality devices, Made In USA,
and Vicor will stand behind their product.

My website under "Russco's EV" has a picture of a Russco DC-DC converter
using two Vicor modules.

Russ Kaufmann

RUSSCO Engineering

http://russcoev.com

240 Volt Hi Power Charger


> RE: swapping input leads -- the thing that is failing is the inrush
> limiter; they just crumble after a while, probably from it running too
> hot. (So, the input rectifier is out of the equation as I removed it). I
> have two more lower resistance/higher amp ones that I may try for a while
> to see how they work while I wait for another converter.

>
> I also found some solid state Vicor's on ebay that I'm considering:
>
> http://cgi.ebay.com/VICOR-DC-DC-Converter-VI-251-09-200V-250W-/190520444458?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item2c5be7462a#ht_500wt_913
>
> However, only 20amps out (250w), but I hear solid states are better for
> reliability and efficiency. Can these guy's be run in parallel? Maybe I'll
> get two and have 40 amp output.
>
> -corbin


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Corbin, Damon's suggestion is worth a try but you will probably (like 
me) be wondering how much juice the converter will use with nothing 
drawing power from the output - ie !Won't that kill my pack?!".

So, you are going to have to measure what the 'stand-by' currant is - 
with an ammeter. Just be careful not to connect the converter to the 
pack via the ammeter without using pre-charge or you will blow the 
ammeter fuse (that blessed in-rush currant again). Alternatively you 
could not pre-charge but connect the converter to the pack with one 
connection accessible to the ammeter leads equipped with croc clips on 
the ends.

Once pack and converter are connected, connect each ammeter lead croc 
clip to one side of the accessible converter/pack connection and the 
other croc clip to the other side, then separate that connection so 
that now the steady-state currant flow between pack and converter is 
going through the ammeter and you will be able to read the currant 
draw without damaging the meter. This is definitely one of those 
situations where a couple of simple drawings tells a thousand (well, a 
hundred or so!) words...

You may of course find that the currant draw is big - and this may 
give grounds to suspect something other than the in-rush currant being 
responsible for the converter failing all the time.

Regards, Martin Winlow
Herts, UK
http://www.evalbum.com/2092
www.winlow.co.uk




> damon henry wrote:
> 
> >
> > Neither the inrush limiter or the rectifier are actually required
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

I use a lower pack voltage and 30A version of this higher voltage 35A one
from Cloud Electric:
http://www.cloudelectric.com/category_s/8344.htm
I turn it on with a key switch relay same as you, use the original 12V
battery that was in the car. I haven't had any problems with it, running
for about 1 1/2 years now. I emailed the manufacturer and they sent me a
spec sheet on it, which says in part: Isolated, max efficiency 92%, short
circuit output protection, 150% input over voltage protection, thermal
switch for over heat protection, fully sealed and waterproof, can sustain
the max output current for 1 hour, static low power draw, steady output
voltage employing soft startup technology.


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

The SP-500 is an AC to DC converter - Can be used directly with DC input without 
modification? 


I use a Meanwell SD-200-C12 in the Citicar. This is a smaller unit than the 
SD-500 (a DC/DC converter), and is only rated to 16.7 amps. With every 12v item 
turned on (headlights, wiper, brake lights, reverse lamp, contactors, etc.) it 
is pretty much maxed out. The output voltage is adjustable, so you can use a 
flooded, AGM or any other battery as an aux battery. I use a 12v 12ah gel 
battery in parallel, similar to those found in small UPS.

I've been using it for over three years with absolutely no problems. Biggest 
issue with your application is that the Meanwell DC/DC converters are only rated 
to 144 volts input.

Tom Keenan



Has anyone used a Mean Well SP-500? IE:

http://www.meanwell.com/search/sp-500/sp-500-spec.pdf

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Jay Summet wrote:
> 
> > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> > Hash: SHA1
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Thanks everyone for the response!

Re Lee -



> Lee Hart wrote:
> 
> > On 4/9/2011 11:25 PM, corbin dunn wrote:
> >>>> My IOTA DLS-55 seems to have bit the dust (again). I haven't torn it
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Hi Lee,



> Lee Hart wrote:
> 
> > On 4/9/2011 11:25 PM, corbin dunn wrote:
> >> Has anyone used a Mean Well SP-500? IE:
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Hi Tom,



> tomw wrote:
> 
> > I use a lower pack voltage and 30A version of this higher voltage 35A one
> > from Cloud Electric:
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Hi John,



> John G. Lussmyer wrote:
> 
> > On 4/10/2011 9:35 AM, Jay Summet wrote:
> >> The DC/DC converter is only activated when the ignition is on, and used
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> From: [email protected]
> Date: Sun, 10 Apr 2011 09:55:53 -0700
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] DC-DC Converter Recommendation
> 
> > 
> > You REALLY should measure your "idling" power draw. 
> 
> What do you use to measure your power draw?
> 
I consider a clamp-on ammeter one of my essential EV tools. It makes these kind of ad-hoc measurements simple.
damon 
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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

On 4/10/2011 9:55 AM, corbin dunn wrote:
> Hi John,
>
>


> John G. Lussmyer wrote:
> >
> >> On 4/10/2011 9:35 AM, Jay Summet wrote:
> >>
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

>> For Vicors, look for a "PFC Micro-, Mini- or MegaPak".



> corbin dunn wrote:
> > That is great to know. I input my requirements to Vicor's website and came up with a 500W Maxi Module:
> > 150Vdc nominal (100-200v range), 15V output, 30A (450W), Grade "C", Slotted based: $269 per unit, 6 week lead.
> > Datasheet: http://cdn.vicorpower.com/documents/datasheets/ds_150vin-maxi-family.pdf
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Hi Tom,



> Tom Keenan wrote:
> 
> > The SP-500 is an AC to DC converter - Can be used directly with DC input without
> > modification?
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Lee Hart wrote:
> 
> >>> For Vicors, look for a "PFC Micro-, Mini- or MegaPak".
> >
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Can anyone give a good reason why not to just skip the DC/DC altogether and use a separate deep cycle battery for the 12V system. The only thing I can think of is you need a separate 12V charger to top off the 12V battery, but those are cheap.

Sent from my iPad



> Lee Hart <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> >>> For Vicors, look for a "PFC Micro-, Mini- or MegaPak".
> >
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Roger Heuckeroth wrote:
> > Can anyone give a good reason why not to just skip the DC/DC altogether and use a separate deep cycle battery for the 12V system. The only thing I can think of is you need a separate 12V charger to top off the 12V battery, but those are cheap.
> 
> 1) low voltage, dim headlights, sluggish windshield wipers, etc
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Good points. I guess if you used 4 LiFePO4 cells those low voltage issues would not apply, but then your looking at a more expensive charger. 



Sent from my iPad



> "John G. Lussmyer" <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> > On 4/10/2011 3:25 PM, Roger Heuckeroth wrote:
> >> Can anyone give a good reason why not to just skip the DC/DC altogether and use a separate deep cycle battery for the 12V system. The only thing I can think of is you need a separate 12V charger to top off the 12V battery, but those are cheap.
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Can anyone give a good reason why not to just skip the DC/DC altogether
> and use a separate deep cycle battery for the 12V system. The only thing
> I can think of is you need a separate 12V charger to top off the 12V
> battery, but those are cheap.
>

You can do this, lots of people have. I've done this in the past. If you
don't need or expect much, it works ok.

As others have pointed out, your lights will be dimmer, and your wipers
will run a little slower. If you rarely use these then it's no big deal.
The radio works fine ;-)

When you consider the cost of a deepcycle battery and charger, and the
extra weight, it's not much cheaper than using a DC-DC

FWIW some folks who have double shaft motors have used the other end of
the traction motor to run things like alternators and power steering
pumps.
Not very efficient, but cheap and simple.

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Can anyone give a good reason why not to just skip the DC/DC altogether
> and use a separate deep cycle battery for the 12V system. The only thing
> I can think of is you need a separate 12V charger to top off the 12V
> battery, but those are cheap.
>

You can do this, lots of people have. I've done this in the past. If you
don't need or expect much, it works ok.

As others have pointed out, your lights will be dimmer, and your wipers
will run a little slower. If you rarely use these then it's no big deal.
The radio works fine ;-)

When you consider the cost of a deepcycle battery and charger, and the
extra weight, it's not much cheaper than using a DC-DC

FWIW some folks who have double shaft motors have used the other end of
the traction motor to run things like alternators and power steering
pumps.
Not very efficient, but cheap and simple.

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

There was a battery available in FLA that had 7 cells. Came to 14.6 volts
with a full charge. Used by drag racers that don't want a charging systems.
Not sure if it is common anymore, this is from a few years ago. It would
resolve the dim lights problem but would again require a special charger.

Sincerely,
Mark Grasser



-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf
Of [email protected]
Sent: Sunday, April 10, 2011 9:34 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] DC-DC Converter Recommendation

> Can anyone give a good reason why not to just skip the DC/DC altogether
> and use a separate deep cycle battery for the 12V system. The only thing
> I can think of is you need a separate 12V charger to top off the 12V
> battery, but those are cheap.
>

You can do this, lots of people have. I've done this in the past. If you
don't need or expect much, it works ok.

As others have pointed out, your lights will be dimmer, and your wipers
will run a little slower. If you rarely use these then it's no big deal.
The radio works fine ;-)

When you consider the cost of a deepcycle battery and charger, and the
extra weight, it's not much cheaper than using a DC-DC

FWIW some folks who have double shaft motors have used the other end of
the traction motor to run things like alternators and power steering
pumps.
Not very efficient, but cheap and simple.

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> On 10 Apr 2011 at 18:25, Roger Heuckeroth wrote:
> 
> > Can anyone give a good reason why not to just skip the DC/DC altogether and
> > use a separate deep cycle battery for the 12V system.
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Roger Heuckeroth wrote:
> > Can anyone give a good reason why not to just skip the DC/DC
> > altogether and use a separate deep cycle battery for the 12V
> > system?
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Lee Hart wrote:
> >
> > ...
> > But I found a way to fix this. Vehicles tend to use deliberately
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Hi Corbin,

Why not take the inrush limiter out of the circuit
immediately after the inrush?
I mean, you can even use a regular power resistor
as an inrush limiter (often done as pre-charge for
the controller), then bypass the inrush limiter
with either a relay or a transistor so it does not
continue to burn power... 
The circuit to add is rather simple, a high voltage FET
that can sustain the current and the max voltages,
plus a delayed turn-on (which could be as simple as an
R-C circuit) and a fast turn-off (discharge diode).
If the FET's channel resistance is low enough, it won't
produce significant heat so it would barely need a heatsink
even while the Iota is pumping out 55A or about 700W
because that means only approx 5 Amps input.

You can even forego the whole resistor or dedicated
inrush limiter thing by designing a simple current
limiter. Say you limit to 10A then the input cap of
the DC/DC will be charged quickly (especially if you
replace it with a smaller cap since you do not need to
bridge the valleys between the AC cycles) and the
current limiter will automatically go into saturation
as soon as the cap is charged and the Iota draws only
5A max.
The basic current limiter needs two resistors and transistors.
One of the transistors must be high power to take the
peak during pre-charge.

Let me know if you want a design of a universal
"pre-charge replacement" that will allow you to switch
your DC/DC frequently without hurting it.
I can even include an isolated (12V) input that you can
use to tie to your key switch or to a delay circuit for
the applications where you first want the controller to
pre-charge before loading the HV circuit with the DC/DC
so this input will switch the current limit from 0 to full
(for example 10A, depending on component selection)

Regards,

Cor van de Water
Director HW & Systems Architecture Group
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
Email: [email protected] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [email protected]
Tel: +1 408 383 7626 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Tel: +91 (040)23117400 x203 XoIP: +31877841130

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On
Behalf Of corbin dunn
Sent: Saturday, April 09, 2011 9:26 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] DC-DC Converter Recommendation

Hi Bill and all,

Thanks for the advice. Anyone else have a brand they are running that
they are happy with?

RE: swapping input leads -- the thing that is failing is the inrush
limiter; they just crumble after a while, probably from it running too
hot. (So, the input rectifier is out of the equation as I removed it). I
have two more lower resistance/higher amp ones that I may try for a
while to see how they work while I wait for another converter.

Has anyone used a Mean Well SP-500? IE:

http://www.meanwell.com/search/sp-500/sp-500-spec.pdf

It sort of looks similar to an IOTA, so I'm not sure it is good. 

I also found some solid state Vicor's on ebay that I'm considering:

http://cgi.ebay.com/VICOR-DC-DC-Converter-VI-251-09-200V-250W-/190520444
458?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item2c5be7462a#ht_500wt_913 

However, only 20amps out (250w), but I hear solid states are better for
reliability and efficiency. Can these guy's be run in parallel? Maybe
I'll get two and have 40 amp output.

-corbin





> Bill Dube wrote:
> 
> > You might try reversing the polarity of the input leads. Can't hurt to
> try.
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Hi Cor,
Yeah, that sounds awesome, but I'm not completely confident in my EE skills to be able to design and build circuitry. I'm still only about 1/3 through a basic college level Electronics book. 

So, I'm going to opt for the Belktronics DC-DC converter. It'll be over $330 with tax and shipping, but I like that Bryan supports the product well.

Actually, after reading his manual I think it may point to a problem in my wiring. I have a 00 wire from my traction pack to a positive contactor (controlled by the controller), and a 00 wire to the negative contactor (controlled by "key on"). These then run to the controller. But, I also have wires from the contactors to the DC-DC converter. It was a convenient place to "tap" into the power. 

I'm now suspecting that some back current flowing through the controllers wires may be part of the problem I'm having. What do you all think?

I may re-wire my IOTA to be directly attached to the traction pack and "always be on". Right now, it is sort of a ticking time bomb until I get a replacement, as I'm sure it will fail again.

corbin




> Cor van de Water wrote:
> 
> > Hi Corbin,
> >
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Cor van de Water wrote:
> > Why not take the inrush limiter out of the circuit
> > immediately after the inrush?
> 
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Hey Lee, can you install 2 of the 48v-75v Vicor by putting 2 in series with
the input on say a 150v battery pack?

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