# Any BLDC motors with ~100 - 200kW?



## major (Apr 4, 2008)

marc02228 said:


> Hey guys,
> 
> I'm looking for a BLDC motor with a performance of around 100kW or 200kW.
> I want to use either one ~200kW Motor or two ~100kW motor in my conversion.


http://uqm.com/ If you can afford it and if you can convince them to sell to you.


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## ruckus (Apr 15, 2009)

Look for surplus "servo" or "stepper" motor. 

Are you looking for 200kw continuous or peak? Huge difference.


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## marc02228 (Jan 15, 2011)

I am looking for a 200 kW PEAK motor.


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## Frank (Dec 6, 2008)

150kW...

http://www.evo-electric.com/


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## efan (Aug 27, 2009)

it seems like this company will start offering a system based on a Remy motor and Rinehart Motion inverter...I think they mention a 100kw and 150kw system (the web page states product should be ready for sale by end of 2011).
http://www.evdrive.com/


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## Bowser330 (Jun 15, 2008)

Frank said:


> 150kW...
> 
> http://www.evo-electric.com/


http://www.evo-electric.com/inc/files/AFM-240-Spec-Sheet-V1.1.pdf

Holy crap that motor is insanely power dense!

Launch Torque of 1200NM *(885ftlbs)* for 18seconds
Peak Torque of 800NM *(590ftlbs)* for 60seconds
Peak Power 335kw *(450hp)* for 60seconds
Peak efficiency 96.5%
Weight 80kg (176lbs)
Diameter 40cm (15 3/4 inch)


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## duedl0r (Nov 7, 2009)

And of course it's not possible to order those evo motors... waste of time..


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## Arlo (Dec 27, 2009)

You guys found some great stuff!


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## Frank (Dec 6, 2008)

duedl0r said:


> And of course it's not possible to order those evo motors... waste of time..


Actually you can fill out a quote request form and after they run it by their engineering folks I believe they can/will sell to individuals. I did this and got a ballpark quote. KillaJoule is using one of their 240 motors I believe along with two Rhinehart inverters.


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## Bowser330 (Jun 15, 2008)

Frank said:


> Actually you can fill out a quote request form and after they run it by their engineering folks I believe they can/will sell to individuals. I did this and got a ballpark quote. KillaJoule is using one of their 240 motors I believe along with two Rhinehart inverters.


what was the quote you received?


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## Frank (Dec 6, 2008)

For your budget estimation and assuming the AFM-140-3 motor is suitable for your application (really need a completed PEF for Engineering Dept to approve motor and inverter) the pricing is:-

· _Standard AFM-140-3 Motor = *£5,995.00 GBP each* (Note:-The number of stator turns does not affect the unit price)_

· _EVO supplied Rinehart PM100DZ Inverter = *£6,000 GBP each* (inclusive of US – UK Shipping and Handling charges)_

*or*_ (need completed PEF to verify)_

· _EVO supplied Rinehart PM150DZ Inverter = *£8,500 GBP each* (inclusive of US – UK Shipping and Handling charges)_




They pointed out that one could procure an inverter direct from Rinehart. This is obviously a pretty expensive system but I'm sure very "sweet."_
_​


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## Bowser330 (Jun 15, 2008)

Thanks for the information Frank.

14,500£ (22,842$ USD) for 150kw (201hp)??....YIKES.....

CurrentEVTech sells a 120kw (161hp) BLDC system for 15,000$ USD

Or even better if there was a way to synch-up two of the 80kw systems, you could have 160kw (215hp) 500NM (370ftlbs), and it would cost 12,000$ USD (not including the cost to mate/synch the two motors)


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## gor (Nov 25, 2009)

Bowser330 said:


> Thanks for the information Frank.
> 
> 14,500£(22,842$ USD) for 150kw (201hp)??....YIKES.....
> 
> ...


20 baks difference 

currentevtec:
80 kw - 88 kg (1kw/kg mt.w/o contr) $5850 ($73/kw )
120kw- 175 kg (0.6 kw/kg) $14995 (*$124*/kw)

evo:
335kw -80kg (4kw/kg)
160 kw -40kg (4kw/kg) $22842 (*$142*/kw)


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## gor (Nov 25, 2009)

how much Reinhart 150dz inverter weight? http://www.rinehartmotion.com/products.html
p.s. 100dz weight 7.5kg http://www.rinehartmotion.com/files/Download/PM100DZ%20Datasheet%20083010.pdf
------

2. evo motor (small one) : Vs/rad should mean Volts per radian per second? (V/rad/s)


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## frodus (Apr 12, 2008)

gor said:


> 20 baks difference
> 
> currentevtec:
> 80 kw - 88 kg (1kw/kg mt.w/o contr) $5850 ($73/kw )
> ...


Actually, the 80kw solution is $69 difference per kW. And its not $142/kw, its $152/kw.

Two 80kw units would be 160kw and $73/kw, or a total of $11700

One of the EVO packages with 150kW inverter would be 150kw and $152/kw, or a total of $22,842.

Almost half the cost.


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## gor (Nov 25, 2009)

frodus said:


> Actually, the 80kw solution is $69 difference per kW. And its not $142/kw, its $152/kw.
> 
> Two 80kw units would be 160kw and $73/kw, or a total of $11700
> 
> ...


yes, about 20 backs difference per kw - between Evo (167.5kw/40kg = 4.18 kw/kg (~$*142*/kw) and Currentevtec (120kw, 175 kg, 0.6 kw/kg, *$124*/kw) option
between evo ($142/kw) and 2 x 80kw 160kg solution, 1kw/kg, $73/kw; difference is $69

i thought, it's obvious

p.s. assumption - all recommended controllers (inverters) support motors peak power


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## Frank (Dec 6, 2008)

What's involved with synchronizing the motors (assuming 2 are used)?

While significantly less expensive, what about quality? Does anyone have any experience with one of the systems Dave sells?


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## Bowser330 (Jun 15, 2008)

There is a guy building a Porsche 914 with one, if i recall.... I will try to find you the link...

One way it could be done is to think of a rwd rear-end running ass backwards.....so you would have the motors connected to the two CV shafts powering into the center differential, and the single output drive shaft could be connected to a transmission...

Yes you would lose some efficiency but the mechanical gearing of the differential would be a good way of accepting two inputs to make one output, plus you could use that center differential to adjust the gearing BEFORE the transmission which can help widen the gear ratios even more....


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## frodus (Apr 12, 2008)

I said the dual 80kw (160kw total) package is roughly half the cost of an Evo and a Rinehart. I wasn't talking about the 120kw....that was you. I just chose a different system to compare.



gor said:


> yes, about 20 backs difference per kw - between Evo (167.5kw/40kg = 4.18 kw/kg (~$*142*/kw) and Currentevtec (120kw, 175 kg, 0.6 kw/kg, *$124*/kw) option
> between evo ($142/kw) and 2 x 80kw 160kg solution, 1kw/kg, $73/kw; difference is $69
> 
> i thought, it's obvious
> ...


That PM150DZ is 150kw Peak..... can't consider only the motor.....the motor is driven by the controller..... so yeah, it's $152/kw for an EVO/Rinehart versus $73/kw for a dual 80kw BLDC from Current EV Tech. 

Can't comment about quality of the Current EV Tech or the Evo motor, but I know for a fact that the Rinehart is a thing of beauty and it's a beast of a controller.... Bob Simpson is using one with a Remy.


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## Arlo (Dec 27, 2009)

You need to see if you can get the motors from this car!
http://www.rimac-automobili.com/concept_one/introduction-20
Liquid cooled and the controllers are built into them!


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## Bowser330 (Jun 15, 2008)

_



So, I have ordered an 80kw BLDC motor from www.currentevtech.com. Dave says it will take from 3 to 6 weeks for delivery.

Click to expand...

_http://cruzware.com/peter/blog/
http://evalbum.com/2784



Bowser330 said:


> There is a guy building a Porsche 914 with one, if i recall.... I will try to find you the link...
> 
> One way it could be done is to think of a rwd rear-end running ass backwards.....so you would have the motors connected to the two CV shafts powering into the center differential, and the single output drive shaft could be connected to a transmission...
> 
> Yes you would lose some efficiency but the mechanical gearing of the differential would be a good way of accepting two inputs to make one output, plus you could use that center differential to adjust the gearing BEFORE the transmission which can help widen the gear ratios even more....


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## Frank (Dec 6, 2008)

Bold move! What's the project?


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## Bowser330 (Jun 15, 2008)

Frank said:


> Bold move! What's the project?


Sorry for the confusion....that was quoted from the blog that i linked too, where the porsche 914 owner is saying he purchased the motor from currentevtech.com.

Someone had asked earlier if anyone had purchased it and I mentioned I would find out for them, I quote my previous response below as well.

I myself have not been able to financially make a commitment to a project yet, however I am extremely passionate and like to help my providing data however I can.


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## Frank (Dec 6, 2008)

OK, thanks for clearing it up, I was confused.


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## gor (Nov 25, 2009)

http://www.calmotors.com/products.php?category=products&page=sportscar

*Peak Power*
211 kW / 283 hp
*Continuous Power*
75 kW / 101hp
*Peak Torque*
216 Nm / 159 lb-ft
*Continuous Torque*
121 Nm / 89 lb-ft
*Maximum Speed*
12000 RPM

65kg / 112 lbs


powercurve- crazy


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## gor (Nov 25, 2009)

http://www.remyinc.com/docs/HVH410_r3_Sept_2010.pdf

remy hvh410-150

185/275kw, 1110/1650nm, 6000rpm, 91kg

3kw/kg (2kw/kg cont)

$/kg dencity - ?


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## Genius Pooh (Dec 23, 2011)

Bowser330 said:


> http://www.evo-electric.com/inc/files/AFM-240-Spec-Sheet-V1.1.pdf
> 
> Holy crap that motor is insanely power dense!
> 
> ...


Do you know motor's price it's too good


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## DrOof (Feb 11, 2012)

Wow, good power. What's the rub? Selling only to OEM's?


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## steven4601 (Nov 11, 2010)

Perhaps I could be mistaken, but last time I informed with Remy they only sold the stator and rotor assemblies. No enclosures. They could sell a CNC'd aluminium enclosure , but that was dear. Things regarding enclosures didn't change so far.....


There is still good news, http://www.evdrive.com/ sells motors with enclosures! 

Shipping to "Ehurope" might be expensive for those on this side of the pond though.


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## Bowser330 (Jun 15, 2008)

steven4601 said:


> Perhaps I could be mistaken, but last time I informed with Remy they only sold the stator and rotor assemblies. No enclosures. They could sell a CNC'd aluminium enclosure , but that was dear. Things regarding enclosures didn't change so far.....
> 
> 
> There is still good news, http://www.evdrive.com/ sells motors with enclosures!
> ...


The systems on their product page look great, I just wish they were a bit cheaper, they lose in the cost ($) department but definitely win in the weight (kw/kg) department.

EVD100LV-Rcr-90p-344-360vdc matched motor & 100kW Inverter/controller
*Price: $17,877*
Power: 140HP [email protected] 5000 RPM w/360V
Torque: 187 ft-lbs. peak w/ 360V
*Maximum RPM: 10,000 
Motor weight: 101 lbs.
Controller weight: 18 lbs.*

vs.

The AC-50 motor w/ 650A controller, 120V max 650A controller
*Price: $4,300*
Power: 70hp @ 4000 RPM w/ 120V
Torque: 110ftlbs from 0-3400rpm w/ 120V
Maximum RPM: 7,000 
Motor weight: 122 lbs.
Controller weight: 12 lbs.
Double shafted option....

Dual AC-50's
140hp @ 4000 <<<Same peak horsepower and similar rpm
220ftlbs <<<~20% more peak torque
*268lbs* <<<148lbs more weight
*$8,600*<<< 9,000$ left to spend on lighter batteries, to save 148lbs!!


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## steven4601 (Nov 11, 2010)

What is the price of the motor alone? The Rhinehart controller is more expensive than the WS200 i am using atm. 

There's also EVE in Italy. So far im happy with the M3AC60


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## Bowser330 (Jun 15, 2008)

steven4601 said:


> What is the price of the motor alone? The Rhinehart controller is more expensive than the WS200 i am using atm.
> 
> There's also EVE in Italy. So far im happy with the M3AC60


Ask, and you shall receive my friend...

http://vaxosystems.com/store/category/53-motors.aspx


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## Frank (Dec 6, 2008)

Is there one controller that could drive two motors or is strictly a 1:1 kind of thing? I had the same thought with twin AC-50's; the other factor is extra space: less of a problem with a car but harder to do on a bike although Brian Hall apparently runs twin AC motors (AC-50?) in Tron, his drag bike.

If someone would make the 150HP single-motor available for < $8-9K I think they'd have a winner...


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## steven4601 (Nov 11, 2010)

@Frank
When BLDC/Induction motors are mechanically locked, they appear as one from the motor-terminals.

@Bowser,
That is still quite expensive.... It makes no sense to spend 11k on a 80kw motor. 

http://shop.electro-vehicles.eu/shop/details.asp?prodid=1101041&cat=0&path=1100,1101 If im correct this motor is nearly identical to the M3AC60 Im using. So far no issues with pushing more than 90kw through it.


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## Frank (Dec 6, 2008)

I wonder what the output from an AC-50 would be like with a more powerful controller? I'm more familiar with limitations of series-DC motors; what would tend to limit output with a motor like the AC-50? My interest is (mnostly) street use with a little land speed racing i.e. max output for ~30-40 seconds.


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## Bowser330 (Jun 15, 2008)

Frank said:


> I wonder what the output from an AC-50 would be like with a more powerful controller? I'm more familiar with limitations of series-DC motors; what would tend to limit output with a motor like the AC-50? My interest is (mnostly) street use with a little land speed racing i.e. max output for ~30-40 seconds.


That is in the works, I think they said mid-2012 they would be releasing a higher voltage water cooled motor & controller, a bit bigger than the AC-50.

I hope the cost doesn't increase too much, the AC-50 with 650A controller is already 4,300$*

I think it was 170V max charged voltage limit, so ~154V nominal....550A peak, so with 10% Vsag the motor could get up to 140V & 550A = 77kw ~ 100hp @ 5000rpm 

*Comparably priced DC system is still the best kw/$
Warp9 + Soliton1 = 4900$ = 190V * 1000A = 190kw = 255hp @ 4000rpm
But no regen....


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## Frank (Dec 6, 2008)

My biggest concern with extended periods of high output with a DC series motor is heating. One of the NEDRA guys is planning to bring his car to the Texas Mile in March. He plans to run at half power (1000A) to limit heating which will also give him a chance to monitor temperatures.


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## Bowser330 (Jun 15, 2008)

Frank said:


> My biggest concern with extended periods of high output with a DC series motor is heating. One of the NEDRA guys is planning to bring his car to the Texas Mile in March. He plans to run at half power (1000A) to limit heating which will also give him a chance to monitor temperatures.


Are you planning to autocross? when will you need extended periods of high output? Additionally, AC motors have losses albeit less than DC motors, but only by 5-10% less, those losses are heat just like in a DC motor, meaning the AC motor will also overheat if run at more than it's continuous rating for longer than specified.

There are two solutions for DC conversion, since their is such a price difference, you can (a) get external forced air cooling, if afterward the motor is still heating up too much then (b) upgrade the motor to a larger one or add another motor (but keep power requirements the same), the larger or additional motor will be able to deal with the heat. e.g. @170V & 1000A the Warp9 will be warmer than the Warp11 or 2 Warp9s will be.

Warp9 = 1,900$ x2 = $3,800
Soliton1 = 3000$
6,800$ 
1000A in Warp9 motor = 230ftlbs
@144V these motors should draw 1000A up to 3000rpm
460ftlbs @ 3000rpm = 262hp @ 3000rpm

Note: My previous email was incorrect when I said 190V * 1000A = 190kw @ 4000rpm. The Warp 9 only delivers 230fltbs @ 1000A, 230fltbs * 4000 / 5252 = 175hp @ 4000rpm


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## Frank (Dec 6, 2008)

This application would be a motorcycle; the high output would be for land speed racing. I know of one person who runs a ZK1 who has raced twice at Loring (1.5 mile track) w/o difficulties but his pack was sagging badly and probably not maintaining output. With newer battery technology full output could be maintained for the 40-50 seconds required to make a run. Packaging becomes more of an issue of course on a bike.

Forced air cooling would be absolutely required. I've been looking at interpole motors as they can handle higher voltages which should be an advantage. 

I've also been thinking about doing a thermal analysis, i.e. for a given mass of motor and estimated losses for a certain period of time, how much would the motor be expected to heat up? I figure there's a 60C. degree envelope to play with (20C ambient to 80C.)


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## steven4601 (Nov 11, 2010)

With DC motor quite a serious amount of losses are in the brushess that weight next to nothing and heat up quickly in effect heating up the copper commutator which is effectively also a junction of high resistance compared to the rest of the motor. 

With AC motors the losses are in the aluminium rotor squirrel cage and iron rotor lamination's and stator windings. Stator windings are easier cooled than the aluminium bars in the rotor, but luckily the rotor doesn't need to stay cool as the stator windings to function properly.

More of a general conciseness about stator losses with AC motors is that the working voltage usually is higher, thus a lower current for the same wattage. Heat loss goes squared with current . 


I am afraid my input on this matter is undesired though.


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## DrOof (Feb 11, 2012)

Genius Pooh said:


> Do you know motor's price it's too good


Contacted them a few days ago. Got a quote from them for roughly 11k GPB.


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## Bowser330 (Jun 15, 2008)

Bowser330 said:


> Ask, and you shall receive my friend...
> 
> http://vaxosystems.com/store/category/53-motors.aspx


Vaxosystems also sells the rinehart motion inverter/controller for 8K$ USD.

That alone is the price of two AC-50 systems!


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## Arlo (Dec 27, 2009)

Yup hi power brushless is uber expensive! This is why I am doing a open soruce controller project.


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## marc02228 (Jan 15, 2011)

Any new motors spotted out there?
I'm looking for a light weight motor with around:

Peak torque: 300 Nm
Speed: >9000

full torque until 6500 rpm

Bob Simpson's motor might be a good fit, but need 700 V. I actually wanted to go with around 350 to 400 V.

Evo Electric is my favorite, but RPM is to low...


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## kennybobby (Aug 10, 2012)

What's your duty cycle--Are you building a dragster or a street car or a bulldozer...? Have you sized your battery pack? e.g. 204 kW = 580 amps at 350 volts is 110 cells at 200 Ahr with 3C discharge for 20 minutes.


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## Hollie Maea (Dec 9, 2009)

Have you talked to Bob? I think the 350V version is lower power just because the Rinehart controller has a current limit in addition to the power limit. He might be able to come up with some other options. How set are you against the high voltage? You probably won't find a better motor....


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## marc02228 (Jan 15, 2011)

Hollie Maea said:


> Have you talked to Bob? I think the 350V version is lower power just because the Rinehart controller has a current limit in addition to the power limit. He might be able to come up with some other options. How set are you against the high voltage? You probably won't find a better motor....


he recommends the EVD150 with paralleled windings. 
The parallel motor seems to need a voltage of 344 to 460 V. But he also said:


> "The inverter/controller part of this system will still be the same, the EVD-RMS- PM150DZ - 250Arms continuous, 300 -720VDC"


Which doesn't make sense, because even at 460 V I'd only have 115 kW at the motor.

The battery pack hasn't been built yet.

Are there any induction motors with these specifications?


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## Hollie Maea (Dec 9, 2009)

That's odd...is he not selling the PM150dx? That is what you need....


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## Arlo (Dec 27, 2009)

I have not seen anything for hi HP PMAC motors so Im going to build my own. I have a collection of induction motors. IM going to build a magnet rotor to inset and an aluminum case with oil cooling inside which will be pumped through a rad. I'm hoping I can make a solid slot motor.


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