# Pop goes the tranny.....



## TheSGC (Nov 15, 2007)

I killed my transmission today. Actually, I am hoping just the Torque Converter. I was a mile from my house, breaking in my new battery pack when I went to take a corner, slowed down and heard a weird whirring sound, like a jet engine spinning down, and then went to take the turn, got locks of loud ticking, then the transmission engaged for about 5 seconds, I got around the corner and then it went dead. Then came my intense vocabulary of 4 letter words for the next hour while I waited for the AAA tow truck.

244,130 miles on the original transmission and TC. I do have another TC with 97,000 on it that I am going to install and hope that solves it. If not, I will be hitting the salvage yards this week/weekend and getting a replacement. I have stripped out my control systems and all the under hood systems except for the motor and tranny. I am saving those for Tuesday once I get more ATF because I have to drain the tranny before I disassemble.

Am I the first one to completely murder a transmission in an EV? 244,130 miles is A LOT so I am hoping just age is what did it in. It's not like I have a very powerful EV-
96 Volts
ADC FB1-4001A
Kelly KDH9401 400 AMP controller (I have never seen it go past 300 AMPs)


----------



## kittydog42 (Sep 18, 2007)

I don't know if it is related, but over the years I have had to replace 3 clutch discs due to springs breaking and causing vibrations. EV use is not what they were originally designed for, obviously, so there is probably more stress on transmissions and associated components after a conversion.


----------



## vpoppv (Jul 27, 2009)

Sorry about your transmission troubles! Good thing you have a spare torque converter. Obviously I have very little to share since I have just gotten mine on the road AND it's a manual, but I DO know that there is a definite different FEEL to the acceleration. I'm always a very patient driver, and I kind of baby my Geos. One thing that I can't really do since I don't have a clutch is be easy on the transmission. I'd rather wear out a clutch than a transmission! That said, even though I am very gentle on acceleration, I can't help but feel that even my little tiny 45 pound golf cart motor has more torque than what the transmission is designed for. I can imagine that a hefty motor would be exponentially worse....


----------



## TheSGC (Nov 15, 2007)

vpoppv said:


> Sorry about your transmission troubles! Good thing you have a spare torque converter. Obviously I have very little to share since I have just gotten mine on the road AND it's a manual, but I DO know that there is a definite different FEEL to the acceleration. I'm always a very patient driver, and I kind of baby my Geos. One thing that I can't really do since I don't have a clutch is be easy on the transmission. I'd rather wear out a clutch than a transmission! That said, even though I am very gentle on acceleration, I can't help but feel that even my little tiny 45 pound golf cart motor has more torque than what the transmission is designed for. I can imagine that a hefty motor would be exponentially worse....


The thing is my setup has half the torque of the original engine, and I rarely punch it at all. Usually I drive as easily as possible so I don't abuse the batteries, but I did not expect the tranny to die out. I removed all of my control systems this afternoon and gave the transmission an inspection on the outside and it seems to look at. The coupling is fine and the flex plate is still attached to the transmission and the motor spins freely by hand. 

Either tomorrow or Tuesday I will drop the motor, drain the transmission fluid and take off the TC and see what the damage is. I will then replace the TC with my spare, refill the tranny and hope it works fine.


----------



## madderscience (Jun 28, 2008)

Assuming the automatic transmission was being properly operated (fluid pumps, idling, whatever else) in the EV application, my guess would be the miles did it in. 250K is a lot, even for a honda.

That said, while its all apart, now might be a good time to go manual 

My MR2 had 190K when I converted it. I rebuilt the tranny just in case, as it turned out the guts were in decent shape, though I suspect it is not the original transmission. All it really needed (which I could not tell until after taking it apart, of course) was seals.


----------



## TheSGC (Nov 15, 2007)

I don't have an idle, but I do have a time period where I wait for the transmission to pump up before I go off. A few weeks ago my EV started to act up and I thought it was my brakes dragging, but maybe it was the TC starting to go, before it was the same thing I was feeling right before it died today. I have only driven it 20 miles since that incident, so that would make sense. I wasn't accelerating or doing anything abusive, I was just cruising then the EV started to slow down and I thought it was dragging brakes.

The transmission may have been acting up before I converted it, and it is the original transmission. 

I am now questioning whether or not the transmission was maintained during the last 40k miles before I got it. The brakes were "replaced" right before I got it according to the owner, but that was BS, I only drove it 8K miles and the brakes and rotors were gone, so I am also thinking the tranny fluid was not properly maintained, and age did it in. 

I am keeping the manual conversion in my mind in case replacing the TC doesn't work. In that case I will be raiding the junkyard and seeing what they have for manuals and autos.


----------



## Bowser330 (Jun 15, 2008)

TheSGC said:


> I don't have an idle, but I do have a time period where I wait for the transmission to pump up before I go off. A few weeks ago my EV started to act up and I thought it was my brakes dragging, but maybe it was the TC starting to go, before it was the same thing I was feeling right before it died today. I have only driven it 20 miles since that incident, so that would make sense. I wasn't accelerating or doing anything abusive, I was just cruising then the EV started to slow down and I thought it was dragging brakes.
> 
> The transmission may have been acting up before I converted it, and it is the original transmission.
> 
> ...


How do you think your new transmission will do with the Zilla 1K? 1000A in a 9" FB1 is about 250ftlbs, right?
Are you planning to increase your overall voltage?


----------



## TheSGC (Nov 15, 2007)

Bowser330 said:


> How do you think your new transmission will do with the Zilla 1K? 1000A in a 9" FB1 is about 250ftlbs, right?
> Are you planning to increase your overall voltage?


I know a stock manual transmission for a Civic can handle 350 Ft-lbs, but my research says that the A4RA transmission *should* handle 300 ft-lbs. I am currently looking at that though. I am going to start off with the Zilla set to match the original engine torque (500 AMPs) to give it a stock feel and go from there. 

I am not currently planning on increasing my voltage because that would mean a new charger, DC/DC, circuit breaker and trying to find a place to put the batteries.


----------



## TheSGC (Nov 15, 2007)

Tomorrow I am replacing the TC and hope that does the trick.

However, what exactly would I need to convert this to manual? I have already been offered a manual tranny and clutch, but now I am wondering what else would be needed?

This is what I have come up with:
Transmission
Mounts
Clutch
Shifter
Linkage

Do I even need the Clutch Master/Slave Cylinder if I am going to drive like it's clutchless? I have been reading pages about converting Civics from Auto to Manual, but a lot of that is ICE based so I am wondering what the barebones would be.


----------



## vpoppv (Jul 27, 2009)

TheSGC said:


> Tomorrow I am replacing the TC and hope that does the trick.
> 
> However, what exactly would I need to convert this to manual? I have already been offered a manual tranny and clutch, but now I am wondering what else would be needed?
> 
> ...


These answers would be better coming from a Honda specialist, but in Geo you also would need to change your axles. You don't need the master/slave cylinder if you go clutchless.....


----------



## TheSGC (Nov 15, 2007)

I have read that I don't need to change the axles. Apparently with a manual transmission and my new Zilla I can get an increase of 4 miles in range, so that is looking real tempting at the moment. 

We'll see how tomorrow goes. I do like the automatic because it was nice and smooth, but if it really is toast, a manual would probably be the cheapest route to go.


----------



## dimitri (May 16, 2008)

TheSGC said:


> Apparently with a manual transmission and my new Zilla I can get an increase of 4 miles in range, so that is looking real tempting at the moment.


Where does the range increase come from? Are you assuming that you will always shift your manual tranny to keep the motor in perfect efficiency spot? I seriously doubt it.....especially if its clutchless and takes 3-5 seconds to shift. You will end up running in too high gears to avoid shifting and waste your precious current.

This urban legend of manual being more efficient is getting old....


----------



## piotrsko (Dec 9, 2007)

dimitri said:


> This urban legend of manual being more efficient is getting old....



has to be: if you are creating heat with the TC then you must be wasting energy to make that heat. Now on the othet hand, if you went without a TC then there would be technically no difference between the two.


----------



## TheSGC (Nov 15, 2007)

dimitri said:


> Where does the range increase come from? Are you assuming that you will always shift your manual tranny to keep the motor in perfect efficiency spot? I seriously doubt it.....especially if its clutchless and takes 3-5 seconds to shift. You will end up running in too high gears to avoid shifting and waste your precious current.
> 
> This urban legend of manual being more efficient is getting old....


Well the extra range is a combo of the Zilla being more efficient than my Kelly and the actual gear ratios of the RPMs I drive in. With my Auto I am forced to cruise at 1780 RPMs at 35 MPH in 3rd because the Kelly wont go past 2800 RPMs.  a Zilla will fix that though.

All of my driving is done at around 35 MPH, so all I need is 2nd gear from the Auto or 2nd in a manual. My most efficient RPM is 3800, which is 35 MPH in a manual in 2nd, and 40 MPH in 2nd in the auto.


----------



## TheSGC (Nov 15, 2007)

piotrsko said:


> has to be: if you are creating heat with the TC then you must be wasting energy to make that heat. Now on the othet hand, if you went without a TC then there would be technically no difference between the two.


I could just force the TC to lockup immediately, but it does lock up once I get to speed so heat isn't a real problem.


----------



## dimitri (May 16, 2008)

piotrsko said:


> has to be: if you are creating heat with the TC then you must be wasting energy to make that heat. Now on the othet hand, if you went without a TC then there would be technically no difference between the two.


This argument is only valid if one assumes a driver with manual is shifting at same exact RPM points as auto , thus using same amounts of battery current during entire trip.

In reality, drivers with manual, especially clutchless, don't shift perfectly and as a net result waste more energy than TC ever would.

I know its not easy to calculate, but I personally drove 2 EVs, one clutchless manual and one auto and my above opinion is based on my own experiences.

Your mileage may vary....


----------



## dimitri (May 16, 2008)

TheSGC said:


> All of my driving is done at around 35 MPH, so all I need is 2nd gear from the Auto or 2nd in a manual. My most efficient RPM is 3800, which is 35 MPH in a manual in 2nd, and 40 MPH in 2nd in the auto.


Since you have hills you could sometimes benefit from 1st gear running less current and higher RPM up the hill, saving energy and avoid motor overheating. Try downshifting clutchless while going up the hill.... people behind you will be very fond of you


----------



## TheSGC (Nov 15, 2007)

dimitri said:


> This argument is only valid if one assumes a driver with manual is shifting at same exact RPM points as auto , thus using same amounts of battery current during entire trip.
> 
> In reality, drivers with manual, especially clutchless, don't shift perfectly and as a net result waste more energy than TC ever would.
> 
> ...


I will agree with this. I drive a manual ICE and I bet I am wasting oodles of power just shifting around. In my EV the transmission does it's own shifting and I do get huge power spike when it shifts, but it lasts only a few seconds. If my Kelly would allow it, I could use just 2nd and have much better efficiency with my FB1. Its nearly 90% efficient at 3800 RPMs and about 70% efficiency at the 1780 RPM I am driving now.


----------



## peggus (Feb 18, 2008)

TheSGC said:


> I don't have an idle, but I do have a time period where I wait for the transmission to pump up before I go off.
> <snip>


This confuses me a bit.

Why do you have a torque converter if you're not idling the motor at stand still? I thought the whole point of having a TC is that so you can run the frontside pump when at standstill and keep the pressure up.

If you're not idling wouldn't you be better off removing the TC and getting rid of the associated losses, complexity and weight?


----------



## TheSGC (Nov 15, 2007)

peggus said:


> This confuses me a bit.
> 
> Why do you have a torque converter if you're not idling the motor at stand still? I thought the whole point of having a TC is that so you can run the frontside pump when at standstill and keep the pressure up.
> 
> If you're not idling wouldn't you be better off removing the TC and getting rid of the associated losses, complexity and weight?


My TC IS my ATF pump, so I can't bypass it. That and modifying a TC is just too much work in my books, it has three input splines and all that plumbing that goes with it.


----------



## TheSGC (Nov 15, 2007)

dimitri said:


> Since you have hills you could sometimes benefit from 1st gear running less current and higher RPM up the hill, saving energy and avoid motor overheating. Try downshifting clutchless while going up the hill.... people behind you will be very fond of you


True, there are a few hills that I stop before, crankT the TPS up, and run it in 1st just to climb them.

I did check a few junkyards, and all they got is Autos so if I can't fix mine today I will be checking out all my options at the salvage yard. Once I finish my lunch, the motor is coming out and the damage will hopefully be viewable.


----------



## TheSGC (Nov 15, 2007)

I just removed the motor and took a look at the damage. There was nothing obviously wrong with the transmission and the TC spun quite freely and easily. I removed the TC and installed the spare, spun it around a few times and definitely felt pressure building up in the transmission!

Then the rain and darkness came, so I called it a day. Tomorrow I have to go to ACE to get a bunch of new bolts for the control tray, and a new tranny bolt because I lost one..... I also need some more transmission fluid, but I am pretty confident that the TC was the problem. The fluid looked fine and there were no chunks of metal or contaminants so I think the TC just gave out and started to freewheel.

Tomorrow's weather is going to be rain and cold, but I think I should be able to finish reinstalling the motor and control tray and give it a test spin.


----------



## peggus (Feb 18, 2008)

(edit)
Never mind, it would appear honda did use the TC as the pump, quite fascinating.


----------



## mill (Aug 22, 2008)

just wondering, when you made your adapter plate, how did you determine the correct tc depth(how far it sits in torwards the trans)? if it sits all the way in pressing against the trans when you bolt them together it could cause the pump/tc to fail. I am considering an automatic conversion too and the biggest hurdle i see is getting the adapter plate right.


----------



## TheSGC (Nov 15, 2007)

mill said:


> just wondering, when you made your adapter plate, how did you determine the correct tc depth(how far it sits in torwards the trans)? if it sits all the way in pressing against the trans when you bolt them together it could cause the pump/tc to fail. I am considering an automatic conversion too and the biggest hurdle i see is getting the adapter plate right.


That was actually the easy part, the TC is flush with the transmission housing. The trick wasn't pushing the TC in, but keeping it from pushing out. Once pressure starts the build the TC tries to pop out of the transmission, so I had to properly adjust the taper locking hub on my motor shaft.


----------



## mill (Aug 22, 2008)

TheSGC said:


> That was actually the easy part, the TC is flush with the transmission housing. The trick wasn't pushing the TC in, but keeping it from pushing out. Once pressure starts the build the TC tries to pop out of the transmission, so I had to properly adjust the taper locking hub on my motor shaft.


cool I didnt think about that, I just read your blog, very impressive, I might hit you up for more info when/if I start my build next year


----------



## TheSGC (Nov 15, 2007)

I'm back in business! I replaced the TC that had 244,130 miles with the new one that had about 97,000 miles on it. I finished it yesterday, but it got too dark to check the ATF levels and I had to rebuild my laptop which decided to BSOD on me yesterday with all my homework on it.....

I just took the EV out around the neighborhood and it works great! I may do a full transmission fluid replace with my dad, but for now it's working!

Now I am still waiting for my Zilla, so in the mean time I am going to make Dimitri's Idling circuit so the EV acts like a normal car so my family can actually drive it and not get scared. Dimitri's circuit uses a switch to cancel the idle when at long stop lights, etc and I have unused Cruise Control buttons on my steering wheel that I am going to use for it. It even has a Cancel button already there.....

I am again one happy EV'er!


----------



## mill (Aug 22, 2008)

kinda unrelated but does the trans even warm up to operating temp(around 160* I think)? I my brother had a transmission got out on his newer honda accord, after doing some searching I found this was a very common problem with that model. I asked my buddy who rebuilds transmissions what caused the issue and he said that the trans "ran cool" on that model and that caused moisture to build up/not boil off and ruin the clutch plates. His fix for it was to change the fluid more often to get the moisture out of the fluid. something to think about, you auto guys may want to check to see what the fluid temps your running and change the fluid more often if it runs cool.


----------



## TheSGC (Nov 15, 2007)

mill said:


> kinda unrelated but does the trans even warm up to operating temp(around 160* I think)? I my brother had a transmission got out on his newer honda accord, after doing some searching I found this was a very common problem with that model. I asked my buddy who rebuilds transmissions what caused the issue and he said that the trans "ran cool" on that model and that caused moisture to build up/not boil off and ruin the clutch plates. His fix for it was to change the fluid more often to get the moisture out of the fluid. something to think about, you auto guys may want to check to see what the fluid temps your running and change the fluid more often if it runs cool.


My transmission fluid has usually been around 90-120F when it was an ICE, and it's about the same as an EV. I measure the lines going into and coming out of the transmission cooler with a thermal couple.


----------



## TheSGC (Nov 15, 2007)

Well, the tranny blew again after 1/2 mile of driving today. I was lucky and the entire way home was down hill, so I pushed the car while my dad steered it. 

So I will not be repairing it and I am on the search on replacing it. At this point I am looking at any JDM replacements, and my dad would like a manual so I could use the Zilla to it's max and burn rubber.

Ideally I will want to get a new transmission setup, something that can take loads of torque. I even got my Idle circuit working, so if I could land another Auto for a few bucks that would be sweet. Tomorrow I will be calling the local junkyards that have Auto's in stock for prices, and I will be searching for JDM manual transmission setup for performance Civic's.


----------



## TheSGC (Nov 15, 2007)

I am trying to source an A4RA automatic transmission, and that seems to be harder than I first thought. I would like to get the Auto just to drop in and get EVing again, but if tomorrow doesn't go well I will be getting a manual that I already have a location on. 

Yesterday I visited a local salvage yard and all the 1996-200 Civic's were stripped to the chassis, so that was a no go. I just finished calling a few auto part recyclers and I have a possible Automatic transmission and tomorrow I will call back and see if it's available and what the condition is. If that falls through, manual it will be and I will just have to figure out the swap.

Man I wish I had a garage......


----------



## TheSGC (Nov 15, 2007)

I bought a replacement Auto transmission from a 1998 Civic. It was still in the donor car today while I was at the salvage yard and they should have it out tomorrow for me. I has 104,000 miles on it and was only $300. If the weather cooperates I hope to install the transmission this weekend and possibly tackle installing some heat too.


----------



## TheSGC (Nov 15, 2007)

Ok, so I finally got the replacement transmission today and cleaned it up. Tomorrow I will be removing the old transmission and hopefully getting the new one installed. 

My engine compartment is completely gutted and I was wondering if I should do anything else while I have a empty compartment? I am reviewing the procedure for proper transmission removal tonight so I can get a start on the removal tomorrow morning. I have the next two days off from school so it's all EVing during the day with the hope of it running by Thursday afternoon.

Oh, and my new Zilla is supposed to be shipping next week so with any luck I will have a Zilla in my hand Thanksgiving weekend!


----------



## TheSGC (Nov 15, 2007)

The weather hasn't been cooperating, but today we finally swapped in the new transmission. The rest of this week will be installing the motor and everything else I took out to replace the tranny. 

I hope to be driving by Thursday afternoon, with my IDLE control fully functional and start the battery break in cycle all over again. The actual swap wasn't too bad, but kind of scary when both front wheels were off the ground and the jacks slowly sinking in the mud. Let's just say we moved fast to get the drive shafts installed before anything became completely unstable.


----------



## vpoppv (Jul 27, 2009)

David,

I look forward to when you get back on the road! I just read through your blog, it looks like I am about where you were in January. It seems your main struggle is/was amps, while mine is throttle input. I was just curious what your pack voltage is after a full charge? Also, I was checking the specs on your controller, and it shows 120v as max voltage; have you been tempted to throw in an extra battery to try and lower the amps needed? (I know I would be). I suppose that would be pushing it, but since that Zilla is on it's way anyway....


----------



## TheSGC (Nov 15, 2007)

vpoppv said:


> David,
> 
> I look forward to when you get back on the road! I just read through your blog, it looks like I am about where you were in January. It seems your main struggle is/was amps, while mine is throttle input. I was just curious what your pack voltage is after a full charge? Also, I was checking the specs on your controller, and it shows 120v as max voltage; have you been tempted to throw in an extra battery to try and lower the amps needed? (I know I would be). I suppose that would be pushing it, but since that Zilla is on it's way anyway....


I have thought about adding another battery to bring the nominal voltage up to 108 volts, but that really wouldn't solve the AMPs problem. My battery pack is around 104-106 volts fully charged, so I could add another battery but my DC/DC can't take it and I am afraid the Kelly would just explode.

The controller can't give more than about 160-180 motor AMPs and I need 300+ motor AMPs to climb some of these hills for 40-60 seconds. Upping the voltage won't change the motor AMPs output (and thus wouldn't change the torque needed), but it would increase my top speed and range.


----------



## TheSGC (Nov 15, 2007)

SOOOO new transmission is in and nothing it happening! The EV doesn't move in any gear, there are no error codes, fresh Honda ATF and the motor is idling fine. I am going through all the wiring and checking the sensors, but so far everything checks out. It just doesn't work. 

I have posted my problem on a Honda forum and I am going to go over it again with my dad, but this one is probably dead and I have to return in and get another. <insert many 4 letter words here>


----------



## vpoppv (Jul 27, 2009)

Man, that is a real bummer! And you had all that Thanksgiving time into it. I sure hope you get it all squared away soon....


----------



## TheSGC (Nov 15, 2007)

vpoppv said:


> Man, that is a real bummer! And you had all that Thanksgiving time into it. I sure hope you get it all squared away soon....


I have formulated a theory while at my grandparents house tonight! I think the weld patch they did is leaking! When I was checking the electrical today I noticed the drive shaft on the passengers side was wet, but I didn't think anything of it. I was opening a car of Root Beer and while it sprayed on it, it dawned on me that the weld might be leaking and sending all the ATF pressure and some fluid out the back of the Tranny!

It was too dark out tonight to test it, but hopefully tomorrow or Tuesday I will take a look at the weld job and clean it up, then spin it up and see if it leaks and spews ATF where I think it does. That would explain why everything checks out, but the transmission doesn't build up enough pressure to engage. 

BTW, we also jacked up the front wheels to see if they would spin, and they sometimes did, showing that pressure is just about zilch.


----------



## vpoppv (Jul 27, 2009)

TheSGC said:


> I have formulated a theory while at my grandparents house tonight! I think the weld patch they did is leaking! When I was checking the electrical today I noticed the drive shaft on the passengers side was wet, but I didn't think anything of it. I was opening a car of Root Beer and while it sprayed on it, it dawned on me that the weld might be leaking and sending all the ATF pressure and some fluid out the back of the Tranny!
> 
> It was too dark out tonight to test it, but hopefully tomorrow or Tuesday I will take a look at the weld job and clean it up, then spin it up and see if it leaks and spews ATF where I think it does. That would explain why everything checks out, but the transmission doesn't build up enough pressure to engage.
> 
> BTW, we also jacked up the front wheels to see if they would spin, and they sometimes did, showing that pressure is just about zilch.


 Makes sense. Do you think you could have them fix it while it's still on the car? Sure would save you a lot of trouble....


----------



## TheSGC (Nov 15, 2007)

vpoppv said:


> Makes sense. Do you think you could have them fix it while it's still on the car? Sure would save you a lot of trouble....


Sadly, no. The passenger's side axle is completely covering it up and there is almost no room to maneuver down there. Once I verify that is indeed the problem I think I am going to return it and hunt down another because who knows what else could happen with the weld spot. I do know that a few local places have transmission in stock, so I am not out of luck yet.


----------



## TheSGC (Nov 15, 2007)

I feel like an idiot. I don't think there is anything wrong with my transmission. I was taking it apart yesterday and I noticed the Torque Converter wasn't all the way in!

The TC has a 3 step installation, step one connects to the main shaft, step two to the Stator and step three connects to the ring gear for the ATF pump. Well, step 3 wasn't even close to being locked it!

And the spilled ATF was my fault, I have overfilled it a little and it started to spew out the ATF dip stick during the 15 seconds it was working at the beginning. I have readjusted the TC and this afternoon I will reinstall the control systems and hope it works.


----------



## TheSGC (Nov 15, 2007)

The EV drives again!!!!!!!!!!

Now to ponder the Zilla installation......


----------



## MJ Monterey (Aug 20, 2009)

TheSGC said:


> The EV drives again!!!!!!!!!!
> 
> Now to ponder the Zilla installation......


And to the victor goes the spoils....... In this case an EV grin!


----------



## TheSGC (Nov 15, 2007)

MJ Monterey said:


> And to the victor goes the spoils....... In this case an EV grin!


Man, I had a huge EV Grin! The idle control was working perfectly and I was cruising up and down the street a whopping 25 MPH, but happy as can be. 

This is one great Friday!


----------



## vpoppv (Jul 27, 2009)

Hourray! It's Zilla time!!!!!!!


----------

