# Electric Supercar



## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

If you are starting assembly, does that mean that you have worked out the placement and mounting of all of the EV components?

I've seen the advertising material on the kit manufacturer's website, but I didn't see any technical details. Do you have an illustration or clear description of the rear suspension? That's critical to fitting the Tesla drive unit in.

Update:
After some online research, I see that the kit uses the front suspension of the FWD donor at the rear, which is normal practice for mid-engine kits of this century. In this case, this means the double A-arm system of the donor Accord.

That's generally a good thing, but it is designed to fit around the conventional transverse placement of the engine, ahead of the axle line. In this case it seems to include the cross members from the Accord, to locate and mount the lower control arm and the steering rack (which is presumably replaced by fixed track rods). The rear cross member will probably go right through the bottom of the motor and inverter of a Tesla Model S or X drive unit (because they are behind the axle), although the Tesla front drive unit places the motor higher to clear the front of the battery case, which might help.

Your post in another forum says that you have motor mounting information from another builder; what's the plan to make the drive unit fit with the suspension and structure?


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

I normally don't watch anyone's YouTube videos, since they are black holes for time providing little if any value. I did watch the intro, hoping for an overview of the technical plan. Sadly, there is no plan provided... but a viewer's note: the music adds nothing and is louder than your voice. Turning the volume up enough to hear the words means getting blasted by the noise at the end. Does anyone listen to their own videos when they're done, or do they just toss them into the YouTube pile of junk?

Anyway... Nice garage.


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

I did look through (no audio, 2X speed, skipping ahead) the front suspension video. Combined with some forum reading, I see that the bits are a VW/Audi McPherson strut system converted to double A-arms. This type of conversion is relatively common for this sort of car, although it seems like a strange choice for a car using Honda components at the rear, since there are stock double A-arm Honda front suspensions... they are using the one from the Accord at the rear.

More importantly, despite using rocker arms to place the spring/shock units roughly horizontal across the top, it looks like they still managed to occupy the space behind the axle line which could be a nice battery pack space with frame tubing.

Do you expect to be able to put any of the battery up front?


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## snowdog (Oct 22, 2018)

Brian, thanks for all the kind words . My first YouTube attempt ever. Obviously I have a lot to learn. 

I obtained the frame dimensions from the kit manufacturer. I sourced the Tesla dimensions from GrabCad. It will fit. Obviously I will need to modify the frame to meet up with Tesla subrame and I may need to modify the suspension points. I may need to widen the rear fenders depending on what size tires/rims I end up going with. I am waiting on the battery purchase for now as it will take me some time to assemble the car. I am planning on ~30kW. Batteries can fit up front as well as between seats and behind the seats. Much of the other electrical, contactors, DC-DC converter, Tesla controller, etc. will be in the back.


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## snowdog (Oct 22, 2018)

Also, maybe I wasn't clear. I will be sourcing the entire tesla subframe (control arms in all). I just need to mate it with the frame.


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## MattsAwesomeStuff (Aug 10, 2017)

> I did look through (no audio, 2X speed, skipping ahead)


Just FYI, I installed "Video Speed Controller" add-on. It lets you speed up videos as much as you want (unlike Youtube that maxes at 2x and requires you to click several times to do it), though the audio dies above 4x.

Also it has hotkeys so you can adjust speed on the fly. S for slower, D for faster. Bumps it up 33% each time.

I can't live without it on Youtube. After a year, almost everything gets watched at 2x minimum, and if they speak clearly, 3-4x. If there's no narration, just music or audio (like a lot of restoration videos have), I'm at 4x minimum. Surprisingly, a 1 hour unnarrated video crushed into 15 minutes is almost tolerable.


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## snowdog (Oct 22, 2018)

Also, maybe I wasn't clear. I will be sourcing the entire tesla subframe (control arms in all). I just need to mate it with the frame.


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

snowdog said:


> Brian, thanks for all the kind words . My first YouTube attempt ever. Obviously I have a lot to learn.


Please don't take the YouTube comments personally - almost nothing in YouTube from anyone is worth the viewer's time, and I'm far from the only person who feels that way. Lots of people have posted dozens of videos, and have never produced anything worth the time it takes to watch. In most cases, a couple paragraphs of text and a few still images would be more informative. If it must be video, then just leaving out background music would help.


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

snowdog said:


> I obtained the frame dimensions from the kit manufacturer. I sourced the Tesla dimensions from GrabCad. It will fit.
> ...
> I am waiting on the battery purchase for now as it will take me some time to assemble the car. I am planning on ~30kW. Batteries can fit up front as well as between seats and behind the seats. Much of the other electrical, contactors, DC-DC converter, Tesla controller, etc. will be in the back.


It sounds like you're well along in planning.  I think I understand the general intent and approach, although it sounds like Tesla components were the only option considered; was that because a ready-to-run product is required, and EV West and others promise that with Tesla drive units?

I assume that you meant 30 kWh (not kW). That's not much capacity for a high-powered application, so range (assuming aggressive driving, given the nature of the vehicle) will be short. It is difficult fit in more in a car not designed to accommodate battery volume.

I'm impressed that the kit manufacturer provided frame dimensions. That's helpful. I see that their order options include "electric drive"; I assume that just means that (compared to their Honda and Toyota options) they just omit the fuel tank, cooling system, and shift linkage. Since the others are set up to bolt in suspension parts from the donor, and there is presumably no donor for the electric drive, does it just have plain frame tubes with no mounting points for any suspension?


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

snowdog said:


> Obviously I will need to modify the frame to meet up with Tesla subrame and I may need to modify the suspension points. I may need to widen the rear fenders depending on what size tires/rims I end up going with.





snowdog said:


> Also, maybe I wasn't clear. I will be sourcing the entire tesla subframe (control arms in all). I just need to mate it with the frame.


I wondered when you mentioned the Tesla subframe earlier if you were planning on using it, complete with the whole Tesla suspension (like Chris Hazell's drift car project - see _Tesla Powered Nissan r32 skyline_). That can make sense and avoids several compatibility issues, but it will involve substantial frame modification and will result in a very wide car. Chris discussed the details of the width issue; fortunately, the K1 Attack body is designed to fit over an Accord front end which is a little wider than the Skyline, so the additional fender width won't be as extreme.

Keep in mind that to "just mate it with the frame" is not trivial, since the frame needs to support and locate the subframe at four specific points (relatively low in the vehicle), plus the rear suspension spring and shock struts (relatively high in the vehicle). The subframe will pull down on the frame at the four mounts (with the weight of the subframe and drive unit), while the struts will push up on the frame with the entire weight of the rear of the vehicle.

This is a reminder that the Tesla "skateboard" idea is nonsense: the car is a conventional unibody (the tube frame will take the place of that in this case) with front and rear subframes that support nothing but themselves, and a battery in between which supports nothing but itself.

I suggest taking suspension modification seriously. Pickup points can't just be moved without consequences, and most people in this forum don't seem to realize that. On the other hand, if you use the complete subframe with suspension, I don't know why you would need to modify the Tesla suspension (other than changing to softer springs and shocks for the lighter vehicle); the Honda (or Toyota) suspension likely would require modification.


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## snowdog (Oct 22, 2018)

Brian, you make many good observations. Several electric powered options were considered. I was not keen on options that would require clutch and shifting. I also liked the available power for the small size and weight. I know there were other options, however this is the one that I landed on. I am not planning to change the tesla suspension the only modification that may be required is where the shocks are mounted to the frame. The K1 is quite wide, as most cars use wheel spacers when used with the honda drive trains.


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## remy_martian (Feb 4, 2019)

IMO, the Tesla strut suspension sucks. As Brian points out, the load point is way high. It'll be interesting to see if and how they ditch this with Roadster II, and even the pickup truck (if it actually is a truck vs an electrified Honda Ridgeline).

Why have the Tesla subframe at all -- seems to me like it's a lot easier to just mount the drive unit itself (IIRC Damian, a <gasp> Youtuber, did that with his BMW), and run your axles to something with a more sane and/or conventional geometry?


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

remy_martian said:


> IMO, the Tesla strut suspension sucks.


Any reason for that comment? - Strut suspension works incredibly well which is why 99% of cars use it


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## remy_martian (Feb 4, 2019)

I'm old school Jaguar vs BMW/Audi knockoff. 

Seems there's one German suspension designer that keeps getting himself fired, and is making the rounds -- latest stop, Tesla.

Take a look at the "lightning rods" in the Tesla skateboard pics. Ridiculous, IMO. Makes a low slung sportscar derivative next to impossible because you have to look through the strut towers.

Done right, the top of the springs is no taller than the outboard brake rotors would be...

Tuck a Tesla drive unit into an XKE rear suspension assembly and you have the makings of a sportscar.

I'm not tickled by the bazillion rubber bushings and no parallel link on the Tesla rear knuckle to keep it where it needs to stay in free space. Rube Goldberg and it's no wonder it clunks.

EDIT: finally at the computer and looked up a K-1. A cutie worth adding to my never-get-done project queue. It's gunna look funny with Tesla struts poking up through the rear quarters, lol.


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## remy_martian (Feb 4, 2019)

snowdog said:


> I obtained the frame dimensions from the kit manufacturer. I sourced the Tesla dimensions from GrabCad. It will fit.


I'd want a CAD model of the frame vs measurements. This one's a case of cut once, order a new frame from Eastern Europe if you F it up.

It also sounds like they have the means to mod the frame as needed -- why not have them do the Tesla drive unit mounts and fitting vs bodging a bodge? I'd even have them mod the chassis to accommodate a floor pack between rocker tubes. It's not like they couldn't sell a bunch of these for their initial investment of effort...


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

The height of the strut tops is a pain on the front of my device - on the back? - simply not an issue and that is only because of the "Lotus 7" type look - on any normal car the strut tops are simply not a problem

Have you ever done anything with an XKE rear suspension setup? - I mean it's cutting edge technology 70 years ago! - I like my driveshafts to drive the rear wheels and NOT have to resist suspension and brake loads as well


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## x.l.r.8 (Oct 20, 2018)

To be fair from hot rods to drag racers it does do it well, increases the unsprung weight and is highly adjustable, easily modifiable and pretty damn strong, is way better than a fixed axle and had LSD’s in most of the cars with wide final drive ratios. For a track car I’ll take a jag IRS over a 9 inch.


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## remy_martian (Feb 4, 2019)

^^ "Brake loads"? 

Regen, son. 

Regen. 

The inboard brake, 70 years later.

lol


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

Duncan said:


> Strut suspension works incredibly well which is why 99% of cars use it


The spring/shock "struts" are not part of the Tesla suspension geometry at all. The spring is just packaged on the shock. When people refer to "strut suspension" as a type, they normally mean McPherson strut designs, in which the strut controls the caster and camber. However,

while McPherson struts are the most common front suspension design, particularly in front-wheel-drive cars, they are not in 90% of all front suspensions
McPherson struts are now (in this century) rarely used in rear suspensions (although the MR2-based version of this kit uses them because it gets them from the donor)
neither front nor rear of any Tesla model uses McPherson strut suspension


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

remy_martian said:


> IMO, the Tesla strut suspension sucks. As Brian points out, the load point is way high. It'll be interesting to see if and how they ditch this with Roadster II, and even the pickup truck (if it actually is a truck vs an electrified Honda Ridgeline).


The high body mounting point for spring/shock loads is quite compatible with unibody structural design, so I doubt they'll change it for car models. The pickup truck, though, will likely have a different structure, with different spring/shock mounting... but it's all speculation at this point.



remy_martian said:


> Why have the Tesla subframe at all -- seems to me like it's a lot easier to just mount the drive unit itself (IIRC Damian, a <gasp> Youtuber, did that with his BMW), and run your axles to something with a more sane and/or conventional geometry?


Damien couldn't make the Tesla drive unit work with the BMW 850 suspension, so he ripped it out and downgraded to an older BMW semi-trailing arm suspension... the only type that typically fits easily with the Tesla drive unit; the tendency for Tesla-powered conversions to be older Porsches and BMWs is not just by coincidence. The K1 Attack suspension (presumably from the front of an old Accord, but they also offer an MR2 version which uses the donor's rear McPherson struts) is not semi-trailing arm, is designed specifically to work with a transverse engine ahead of the axle line, and will not easily work with the Tesla drive unit.

The Tesla Model S/X rear suspension geometry is entirely sane and quite conventional. It is not a McPherson strut; it is a multilink design, of the "integral link" type also used by Ford and Jaguar. The spring/shock unit's lower end mounts directly to the hub carrier, providing a desirable 1:1 motion ratio, but it connects though only a single bushing so it does not control the suspension geometry at all (unlike a McPherson strut with its rigid lower mounting to the hub carrier, so it controls caster and camber). Both the 1:1 motion ratio (at the rear) and the mounting of springs and shocks to the body rather than the subframe (at both ends) are characteristics shared with the current Mazda MX-5 (Miata). Edmumds has a good "walkaround" tour of the Tesla suspension.


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

remy_martian said:


> I'd want a CAD model of the frame vs measurements. This one's a case of cut once, order a new frame from Eastern Europe if you F it up.
> 
> It also sounds like they have the means to mod the frame as needed -- why not have them do the Tesla drive unit mounts and fitting vs bodging a bodge? I'd even have them mod the chassis to accommodate a floor pack between rocker tubes. It's not like they couldn't sell a bunch of these for their initial investment of effort...


This makes sense to me. Their options list includes "electric drive", simply meaning that they leave out bits specific to any of the engine options, but there is still provision for a rear suspension (presumably CB-generation Accord front). They could offer a real electric drive option, to fit the drive unit and suspension of a specific donor EV (which would be Tesla Model S in this case).


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

snowdog said:


> I am not planning to change the tesla suspension the only modification that may be required is where the shocks are mounted to the frame.


My guess is that you are concerned that the spring/shock units will interfere with the K1 Attack frame tubes. Only very limited change is reasonable with this, since the spring/shock struts attach directly to the hub carriers (you can't relocate them on a control arm), and if you even tilt them you change the progression of the spring and shock stiffness with travel. They could probably tilt inward a bit without problems, but it would certainly be better to modify the frame to work properly with the suspension.


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

remy_martian said:


> Tuck a Tesla drive unit into an XKE rear suspension assembly and you have the makings of a sportscar.





Duncan said:


> Have you ever done anything with an XKE rear suspension setup? - I mean it's cutting edge technology 70 years ago! - I like my driveshafts to drive the rear wheels and NOT have to resist suspension and brake loads as well


I'm with Duncan on this one: not so much about braking torque, but I certainly don't want axle shafts as suspension links in anything but a classic car (my Spitfire has them, but I wouldn't build anything that way).



remy_martian said:


> I'm not tickled by the bazillion rubber bushings and no parallel link on the Tesla rear knuckle to keep it where it needs to stay in free space. Rube Goldberg and it's no wonder it clunks.


The integral link design has fewer joints and fewer parts than classic double-A-arm and multilink designs, and a typical number of them are bushings (since in this case it doesn't use any ball joints). I'm not sure what link you think is missing, but I suspect that you don't understand the function of the vertical caster control link (the one that leads to the "Integral Link" trade name). The classic five-separate-links design (Mercedes W201 and many subsequent, Mazda RX-8 and NC/ND MX-5, for instance) is a more elegant solution, but the integral link style packages a little more easily.


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

*Jag IRS sidetrack...*



x.l.r.8 said:


> To be fair from hot rods to drag racers it does do it well, increases the unsprung weight and is highly adjustable, easily modifiable and pretty damn strong, is way better than a fixed axle and had LSD’s in most of the cars with wide final drive ratios. For a track car I’ll take a jag IRS over a 9 inch.


Of course you mean *decreases* unsprung weight, but any IRS does that and the additional reduction due to inboard brakes comes at a high cost in maintenance. Any reasonable IRS is better than a beam axle (which is presumably what you mean by "fixed" axle), but a bad design of any type is still bad... and most newer IRS designs are better than the classic Jag IRS in just about every way.


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

snowdog said:


> Several electric powered options were considered. I was not keen on options that would require clutch and shifting. I also liked the available power for the small size and weight. I know there were other options, however this is the one that I landed on.


Any motor with sufficient operating speed range could be used without a multi-speed transmission, eliminating the clutch and shifting of the traditional DIY conversion approach (although the right total gear reduction ratio is still required). Any complete drive unit (motor with transaxle) salvaged from an EV would be a suitable motor and single-ratio reduction gearing system, and most of them would fit with the stock K1 Attack suspension, because they are designed to fit in place of a typical transverse engine mounted just ahead of the axle line.

Of course those are not the only factors, and I do understand the appeal of the promised "plug and play" of the Tesla packages.


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## x.l.r.8 (Oct 20, 2018)

You are correct. Long night and way to much excitement in the past 24 hours. I only played with older IRS units because I’m older. After the late 80’s I thankfully moved away from Jaguar.


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

Following up on the spring/shock unit height...
The car is designed to work with the Honda front double wishbone suspension, which has a spring/shock strut which is quite tall because its entire working length is above the axle shaft. The available alternative MR2 McPherson struts are similarly tall for an equivalent reason. The Tesla and Honda (or Toyota) strut tops are probably comparable in height, so in that dimension (but not in width) the Tesla suspension is likely reasonably compatible with the K1 Attack frame.


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## snowdog (Oct 22, 2018)

Great discussion guys. You all have a wealth of knowledge. When the Tesla subframe comes in I will post some pictures with potential mounting options. I would love for the feedback.


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## snowdog (Oct 22, 2018)

So I have a couple of screen shots of the tesla rear subframe with the K1 frame overlay. The designed placement of the coilovers for the K1 look like they will be ~2in inboard of the stock tesla location. My plan is to change the mounting point of the coilover to match the location and angle of the stock tesla struts. The plan for the frame is all weld on (no cutting) to bring the frame to the four motor mounting points.

You can see a little more in the last 3 minutes of this YouTube video. 
https://youtu.be/eqOIkSRNeFY

Suggestions?


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## remy_martian (Feb 4, 2019)

Seems like you could get a wider rear tire on there if you ditch the Tesla springs.

In any case, I thought the company did bespoke frame design as well? If it were me, I'd have them build a new rear frame section (everything aft of the rear bulkhead, properly triangulated and including a crush zone, cut off everything and weld that new rear piece in place of the old. If your Tesla models are accurate, you've done a lot of the CAD heavy lifting for them.


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

remy_martian said:


> Seems like you could get a wider rear tire on there if you ditch the Tesla springs.


Ditch them for what - small-diameter coils on custom shocks?

The Model S hardware fits 245 mm wide tires, and this is a much lighter car, so I don't see a need for wider tires. The Tesla struts have, I assume, air springs; that would be handy for tuning the rear stiffness.


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

snowdog said:


> So I have a couple of screen shots of the tesla rear subframe with the K1 frame overlay. The designed placement of the coilovers for the K1 look like they will be ~2in inboard of the stock tesla location. My plan is to change the mounting point of the coilover to match the location and angle of the stock tesla struts. The plan for the frame is all weld on (no cutting) to bring the frame to the four motor mounting points.


That all looks good. The new strut mounts can be just like the current ones, but outside the frame rails rather than inside.

Keep in mind that the four subframe mounts take all of the horizontal forces (of cornering, acceleration, and braking) plus support the weight of the drive unit... the frame extensions will need to be well-braced.


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## snowdog (Oct 22, 2018)

Question on battery placement. The kit that I am building (https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC-Uk13BnLTGAO5APsfuT9uw) has large channels that run along either side of the car length wise between the front and rear tires. This seems like it might be a good place for battery locations, right? Any draw backs?


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

*battery placement: side tunnels?*



snowdog said:


> The kit that I am building (https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC-Uk13BnLTGAO5APsfuT9uw) has large channels that run along either side of the car length wise between the front and rear tires. This seems like it might be a good place for battery locations, right? Any draw backs?


I think you'll find that by the time you put any available module in an enclosure, with room for wiring and cooling, it's too bulky to fit in spaces like that.

Have you ever seen the battery setup in AC Propulsion's tzero? It had packs down each side, but wouldn't meet modern expectations of safe battery pack design.


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

*Re: battery placement: side tunnels?*

If I build another EV That is exactly where I would put the batteries - 
It's always a problem finding space for the batteries - I would design the chassis right from the start to hold the batteries

Those two spaces are the best place - the only things that need to be in between them are the driver and passenger - and they don't need anywhere near as much space as they usually get 

The Tesla is what 77 inches wide? - you need 16 inches for each bum and 8 inches between them - 40 inches - leaving 37 inches for the two battery modules - my Volt modules are about 11 inches wide - and they are wider than most


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## snowdog (Oct 22, 2018)

I was planning on using using LG Chem 16S 2.6kWh Batteries. The drawings seem like there should be plenty of room. Maybe I am missing something.


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

snowdog said:


> I was planning on using using LG Chem 16S 2.6kWh Batteries. The drawings seem like there should be plenty of room. Maybe I am missing something.


Or maybe I am underestimating the size of those spaces.

My suggestion would be to build a cardboard box, wide and tall and long enough for the module plus whatever you need for cooling plus the enclosure structure plus cabling, and stuff it into those cavities to see how it fits.

Keep in mind that you probably don't want to use your battery modules as a crushable structure in a collision, so steel tubing around them would be appropriate.


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## snowdog (Oct 22, 2018)

Any fundamental problems with standing batteries upright instead of laying down?


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

snowdog said:


> Any fundamental problems with standing batteries upright instead of laying down?


In lithium-ion cells, typically not. Those LG Chem modules are presumably stacks of pouch cells; in this type of design (which is by far the common design in current EVs) the pouches are clamped together, and the clamping force is much more important than gravity. They don't typically have top vents, so which side is on top doesn't matter.

Do you have a link to any information about those modules? LG Chem has made a lot of cells and modules. I'm guessing that they are the ones sold by EV West, which appear to be made for the Chrysler Pacifica plug-in hybrid (although the Pacifica is not mentioned in the LG Chem battery overview). They lay flat in the Pacifica simply to fit under the floor.

If these are the modules, you can find substantial discussions of them in this forum by searching for "Pacifica". I don't know offhand what mounting orientations have been tried.


You haven't asked about *cooling*, but I'll toss in my comment anyway...
For "supercar" performance, or even to use the full stock output of even a small Tesla drive unit more than very briefly, these modules will likely need cooling. If they are the modules that I am guessing, they are cooled with a plate against the large (14"x8") side with the exposed aluminum. That means building cold plates (presumably with coolant circulating in them), or adapting the plates from something like the Pacifica. Just finned heat sinks and lots of airflow might be adequate, for less-demanding use.


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## snowdog (Oct 22, 2018)

Brian, Thank you for your comments. They have been very helpful. I have been trying to research about the battery boxes, best construction methods, heating cooling considerations. It seems that many of these threads start off good and take some big tangents.

I haven't bought any batteries yet, but yes those were the ones that I was considering.

I was thinking of making a fiberglass box where I can secure the batteries well with some steel tubing supports. I was thinking of starting with the air cooled method. 

Do you have any good threads or articles to point me to.


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

Re-Cooling

Depends on where you are - I am overloading my Volt cells and cooling is not a requirement here (Southland)

I like the liquid cooling systems - not so much for actual cooling as for temperature balancing - they do keep all of the cells at the same temperature


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## snowdog (Oct 22, 2018)

Good point


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## snowdog (Oct 22, 2018)

Tesla motor is in!!!


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

snowdog said:


> Tesla motor is in!!!


Congratulations on a substantial milestone. 

Photos?


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## snowdog (Oct 22, 2018)

Ha, Ha, I should have been more clear. I mean I now have the tesla motor. It is not yet mounted to the frame. I will post some photos.


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## snowdog (Oct 22, 2018)

Here is a picture


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

snowdog said:


> Ha, Ha, I should have been more clear. I mean I now have the tesla motor. It is not yet mounted to the frame.


LOL oh, well, even that's progress.



snowdog said:


> Here is a picture


Have you had a chance to confirm that the dimensions match the model you are using?
That's the drive unit and subframe, but you did get the suspension as well, right? My understanding is that the plan is to use the Tesla suspension.


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## snowdog (Oct 22, 2018)

Suspension, brakes, rotors, spindles are still coming (not here yet). Still confirming dimensions. I will see if I can position it roughly in place. I have a neighbor (metal fabricator) coming over this weekend to help me with some mounting options.


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## snowdog (Oct 22, 2018)

For those wanting more details

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l_DMu-_KCpY


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

It is a little strange to see the Honda struts dangling back there, since the Telsa struts are different (in the lower mount, especially, as shown at the yellow arrow in the photo by Edmunds), and will need to mount in a different location. I assume that Tesla struts are among the various suspension components which are on the way, or that a compatible coil-over shock will be used instead.


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## snowdog (Oct 22, 2018)

The other struts were thrown on to help identify the axle position. Once the suspension control arms and spindles come and are mounted, I will figure out if the Tesla struts or an alternate struts will be used. I am leaning towards an alternate solution thinking that the tesla struts are meant to support a 5,000 lb car and are air struts. Still evaluating, suggestions are welcome.


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

snowdog said:


> The other struts were thrown on to help identify the axle position.


Thanks - that makes sense, given that the Honda struts are vertical and approximately on the axle line. 



snowdog said:


> I am leaning towards an alternate solution thinking that the tesla struts are meant to support a 5,000 lb car and are air struts. Still evaluating, suggestions are welcome.


The air springs could be handy because of the weight mis-match: you could just run lower air pressure. Of course coil-over shocks would provide an nearly infinite choice of springs, with some choice in length.


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## snowdog (Oct 22, 2018)

Starting on Tesla motor cooling system.

For those wanting more details
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KviMFySdezc


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## snowdog (Oct 22, 2018)

More work on Tesla motor cooling system.

For those wanting more details
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wZ-G7ljfIqQ


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## snowdog (Oct 22, 2018)

Continue wiring 12V circuits and starting on charging unit and DCC converter.

For those wanting more details
https://youtu.be/jNgFOHGgJ70


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## snowdog (Oct 22, 2018)

Progress continues

https://youtu.be/m4Y1J_jXocQ


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

When the still image shows a battery box, I'll assume that the latest video covers battery box design and fabrication. Will that work?


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## snowdog (Oct 22, 2018)

Still don't have any batteries yet to necessitate battery boxes. If you have any suggestions or threads to research, please feel free to give me some insights.


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## Tristane (Sep 18, 2019)

That is awesome what you to do... How much does it cost to charge an electric car with solar power? I found interesting review hom much it cost https://websolarguide.com/how-much-do-solar-cars-cost/


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## snowdog (Oct 22, 2018)

Tristane said:


> That is awesome what you to do... How much does it cost to charge an electric car with solar power?


Last I checked the sun was free $$$


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## Tristane (Sep 18, 2019)

Hah. Nice joke.


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## dtbaker (Jan 5, 2008)

snowdog said:


> Last I checked the sun was free $$$


sun is free.... converting it to DC, or AC, electricity is not.... 

in most places the 'amortized' cost of solar electricity in the US is probably around $.06-$.07/kWhr with residential installs if you divide the net cost of the PV/ warranteed 25 year production.

This usually works out to be less than typical residential utility rates for electricity....

so, the cost of solar electricity is probably around .07/3.5 = $.02/mile

but to be absolutely fair, you have to consider that batteries are 'consumables', and you should amortize the cost of the batteries over the expected life/miles. for instance.... I spent $8k on my batteries that I *hope* will last 50k miles; costs me essentially $.16/mile

if we're up to $.18/mile for electricity and batteries, then 30 miles (equivalent for a gallon of gas to go 30 miles in same car) costs about $5.40..... so its actually more expensive to drive an EV unless you really think you can get 100k miles out of your battery pack.

I initially hoped for 100k miles, but I'm not sure sure that's possible with the occasional under/over charge that happens with DIY builds and BMS.


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## snowdog (Oct 22, 2018)

Hey all, Tesla rear suspension is now in place.

For those wanting more details...
https://youtu.be/pVZ_8NLtRzY


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

snowdog said:


> Hey all, Tesla rear suspension is now in place.
> 
> For those wanting more details...
> https://youtu.be/pVZ_8NLtRzY


I only watched the video at 2X speed, skipping forward in jumps, with no audio... but doing all that with the Honda strut hanging in the way just seems awkward, since all the strut is doing is indicating rough axle position. I would have just put a piece of tape on the lower frame tube for that, but whatever works for you.

That's a lot of the frame tubing that had to come out, and the spring-shock strut mounts are still superfluous (since they're not placed properly for the Tesla units). It's getting close to just cutting the kit frame off at the firewall.


----------



## snowdog (Oct 22, 2018)

You are absolutely right. I am very close to just cutting off the whole rear frame. I will start 3D modeling and figure out what the best solution is.


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## Roadstercycle (Jun 26, 2019)

Hi snow dog, When you get to the park brake setup there's 2 ways to go, there's a little control switch on Ebay for about $300. The other way is using the Wilwood park brake setup. I designed a little bracket to hold it and it works great. No worries if it's on or off or if the battery goes dead that the brakes are locked up. The Wilwood setup works really great. Also you will probably find that the chamber will be way off and the toe in too. Check out my video and you'll see what I did for that. It's kinda long so scroll through it. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wj2Y4xYgpAQ


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

Roadstercycle said:


> Also you will probably find that the chamber will be way off and the toe in too.


That's *camber* and toe. I think it's reasonable to assume that any suspension which has been disassembled and reassembled would need a routine alignment... including caster if that's adjustable.


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## Roadstercycle (Jun 26, 2019)

Unfortunately with the Tesla model S you only have a toe adjustment. No chamber or caster. If you start noticing Model S cars on the street you'll see a lot of them with the top of the rear tires leaning in towards the car. I just bought a set of wheels and tires off a Tesla and the back tires are worn with a lean in them. The front tires will stand up, the rear fall sideways because of being worn so lopsided. Nature of the beast. That's why I upgraded to adjustable arms.


Also not trying to steal your thread, I love your build, just telling you what I found in my build that has to be dealt with. That's the fun with projects though, getting things perfect.


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## snowdog (Oct 22, 2018)

Great insights! Keep them coming


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## snowdog (Oct 22, 2018)

I have made a first pass at a frame design to accommodate the Tesla subframe. Suggestions and feedback are welcome.

https://youtu.be/ukRxEITgqyo


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## snowdog (Oct 22, 2018)

CAD design


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

snowdog said:


> I have made a first pass at a frame design to accommodate the Tesla subframe. Suggestions and feedback are welcome.
> 
> https://youtu.be/ukRxEITgqyo


Maybe some day I'll take the time to watch and listen through all of that, but for now I'll just note that it seems very strange to build a big and complex frame under the subframe. Both the Tesla and the kit are designed to have the structure over the drive unit and subframe, and it's not apparent why you would not just do that; after all, all of the vertical load is taken by the struts to the two high strut perches, so that's where your structure is, anyway. 

As I noted in earlier discussions, the position of the stock Model S struts accommodates large tires, so messing up the spring/shock geometry with some angled units just to use the strut mounting points on what is left of the kit frame doesn't make sense to me, either.


----------



## remy_martian (Feb 4, 2019)

I would just have the kit people design and fab up the framework for mounting the Tesla pieces and chop and weld what's there per their instructions.

It's a nice build so far, so why mess it up with a kludge/"bodge"? Shouldn't cost anything - it's in their best interest to provide a kit option to everyone with support for Tesla pieces....with a properly welded up frame instead of the cut and weld you'll have to do as guinea pig.


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## snowdog (Oct 22, 2018)

Thanks for the comments guys. I will look into both options.


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

remy_martian said:


> I would just have the kit people design and fab up the framework for mounting the Tesla pieces and chop and weld what's there per their instructions.
> 
> It's a nice build so far, so why mess it up with a kludge/"bodge"? Shouldn't cost anything - it's in their best interest to provide a kit option to everyone with support for Tesla pieces....with a properly welded up frame instead of the cut and weld you'll have to do as guinea pig.


That would be an excellent plan if ordering a kit... but this one has already been purchased. Would they take it back (in the Czech Republic, where it's built) to modify it?

I don't know of any kit car company offering a kit set up to install a powertrain from an EV donor. The time has probably arrived for that. B-racing supports multiple unrelated powertrain donors (rather than being dedicated to one donor as most kits are), so perhaps they're the ones to do it, if it's not already out there.


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## snowdog (Oct 22, 2018)

I redesigned the frame. I received my batteries. Now I need to figure out where to put them.

https://youtu.be/tzwkKEfrHPo


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## snowdog (Oct 22, 2018)

Wiring continues...Never been closer

https://youtu.be/Vb-iD-tYr3U


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## snowdog (Oct 22, 2018)

I purchased one of the BMS systems from EV West. I should be more adept at this but I am not. I had a wiring question. The system can monitor up to 96 cells (with satellite systems). Can this BMS monitor 2, 96 cell packs in parallel?I was planning on using the LG CHEM Lithium Ion Battery - 60.8V, 2.6kWh. 

I was planning on 12 (2 packs of 6 in parallel). Each pack has 16 cells with connectors for readouts.

This would mean I have 192 cells to monitor, however the dilithium BMS system it can only monitor 24 cells each and only up to 96 with satellite systems. Or is there a different way to monitor parallel packs?

How would I wire? Or would a different BMS be a better option?


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

snowdog said:


> The system can monitor up to 96 cells (with satellite systems). Can this BMS monitor 2, 96 cell packs in parallel?
> ...
> This would mean I have 192 cells to monitor, however the dilithium BMS system it can only monitor 24 cells each and only up to 96 with satellite systems. Or is there a different way to monitor parallel packs?
> 
> How would I wire? Or would a different BMS be a better option?


With 192 cell voltages to monitor, you need a 192-point BMS. The fact that you will have two string of modules with the strings in parallel doesn't change that.

You could connect every cell level of every module to the corresponding module in the other string, so that you would effectively have 96 groups in series of 2 cells (or 2 times whatever is paralleled in a module), instead of strings each with 96 cells in series... but the module's BMS wiring connections are not suitable for parallelling cells.

I see four options:

a different BMS which can handle 192 points
two 96-point BMS, each independently handling a string
rewire modules internally to 8S instead of 16S (difficult, if even possible)
use different modules

There are reasons that production EVs generally do not use parallel strings of modules.


----------



## snowdog (Oct 22, 2018)

Thank you for your insights


----------



## snowdog (Oct 22, 2018)

Finishing up the Tesla wiring

https://youtu.be/n6DkKv4DMq0


----------



## snowdog (Oct 22, 2018)

Finishing up the steering column and starting to design the battery boxes.

https://youtu.be/wvJ_ACsmO-8


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

snowdog said:


> Finishing up the steering column and starting to design the battery boxes.
> 
> https://youtu.be/wvJ_ACsmO-8


While it is true that any connected set of cells forms a battery, it is typical in EV discussions to refer to a cell group which is only part of the whole system and forms a unit with housing and internal wiring - particularly one which is interchangeable with other groups - as a "module", not a battery. A group of modules assembled in an enclosure with a common electrical connection is a "pack"; on that basis you have a battery consisting of a front pack and a rear pack, each pack consisting of several modules.

When the structure was first shown and battery module mounting was discussed, my comment was that the design didn't allow useful space for modules in the front, largely because of the diagonal bracing (which in turn is there due to the unnecessary but aesthetically desired inboard suspension position). I see that the solution is to put the modules way out front; while making the modules part of the crush structure is not ideal, my first thought was that is undesirable from a mass distribution viewpoint. It is, on the other hand, part of the fine DIY conversion tradition of stuffing bits of battery way out in the nose to fit it all in. At least they're not filled with lead. 

The rest of the modules stack in what is normally engine space, which is the logical location (and the best place for the mass, front to rear)... just like an original Tesla Roadster. The rearward (of the axle) motor mounting enables this, again as in the Roadster. The only unfortunate thing is that they need to be stacked so high to fit in, so the centre of mass of this performance car will be higher than a sedan of the same size would be with an underfloor battery... I don't know of any good way around that, because no one wants to perch the occupants up on top of a layer of battery modules in this style of car.

At first it sounded like these modules were going to be mounted without any enclosure, and I was glad to see that they're going in boxes - some DIY builders seem to believe that no enclosure at all is required. The boxes are to be some sort of plastic sheet; I find it interesting that every EV manufacturer decides that the cost and weight of a metal enclosure is justified, but most DIY builders don't. 

If the cables go through the box without interruption, the fitting would be a "grommet" or "feed-through bushing"; if a connector is installed in the box wall, it's a bulkhead connector.


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## dtbaker (Jan 5, 2008)

snowdog said:


> Finishing up the steering column and starting to design the battery boxes.
> 
> https://youtu.be/wvJ_ACsmO-8


looking pretty cool!

you might want to explore using 1/4" poly pro plastic, and heat welding rather than lots and lots of angle brackets to hold things together. It's pretty easy to work with, and you can even make brackets/gussets attached to the box rather than mess up your steel frame with welded brackets that might change with different batteries later.

I was able to obtain a very tight fit to 'clamp' batteries by clamping sides on outside of batteries, and tack welding outside seams. Kept everything nice and square and tight. My install was in very tight space, and at some funky angles to meet up with existing frame mounting points.

http://envirokarma.org/ev2_mx5e/gallery/121209_bbox01.htm
http://envirokarma.org/ev2_mx5e/gallery/121209_bbox02.htm


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## dtbaker (Jan 5, 2008)

brian_ said:


> I find it interesting that every EV manufacturer decides that the cost and weight of a metal enclosure is justified, but most DIY builders don't.


probably partially left over from lead-acid days.... polypropylene lasts way better when exposed to acid (or water from underneath) and has the added benefit of not acting as a giant ground path for any frayed insulation or loose ends that touch the box. 

I would say that a plastic lid over exposed battery terminals is a must versus a metal lid or being left open. I know I've had many curious fingers stuck in the motor bay, and it's good to protect against accidental shorting thru humans as they lean in to look.


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## snowdog (Oct 22, 2018)

brian_ said:


> While it is true that any connected set of cells forms a battery, it is typical in EV discussions to refer to a cell group which is only part of the whole system and forms a unit with housing and internal wiring - particularly one which is interchangeable with other groups - as a "module", not a battery. A group of modules assembled in an enclosure with a common electrical connection is a "pack"; on that basis you have a battery consisting of a front pack and a rear pack, each pack consisting of several modules.
> 
> When the structure was first shown and battery module mounting was discussed, my comment was that the design didn't allow useful space for modules in the front, largely because of the diagonal bracing (which in turn is there due to the unnecessary but aesthetically desired inboard suspension position). I see that the solution is to put the modules way out front; while making the modules part of the crush structure is not ideal, my first thought was that is undesirable from a mass distribution viewpoint. It is, on the other hand, part of the fine DIY conversion tradition of stuffing bits of battery way out in the nose to fit it all in. At least they're not filled with lead.
> 
> ...




Thanks for taking the time to instruct me. One of these days I will get all of the terms correctly.


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## snowdog (Oct 22, 2018)

dtbaker said:


> looking pretty cool!
> 
> you might want to explore using 1/4" poly pro plastic, and heat welding rather than lots and lots of angle brackets to hold things together. It's pretty easy to work with, and you can even make brackets/gussets attached to the box rather than mess up your steel frame with welded brackets that might change with different batteries later.
> 
> ...


You make some good points. I will have to look into it. Your setup looks pretty nice.


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## snowdog (Oct 22, 2018)

dtbaker said:


> probably partially left over from lead-acid days.... polypropylene lasts way better when exposed to acid (or water from underneath) and has the added benefit of not acting as a giant ground path for any frayed insulation or loose ends that touch the box.
> 
> I would say that a plastic lid over exposed battery terminals is a must versus a metal lid or being left open. I know I've had many curious fingers stuck in the motor bay, and it's good to protect against accidental shorting thru humans as they lean in to look.



My initial thought was to secure the battery packs to the vehicle and then to provide some insulation as you mentioned. I am very new to this so always looking to learn. Thanks for your comment.


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## dtbaker (Jan 5, 2008)

snowdog said:


> You make some good points. I will have to look into it. Your setup looks pretty nice.


thanks....

as you can see, I didn't have much room to work with in the Miata.  I found it to be most effective to break the packs into chunks small enough to juggle with other components and then weld the compartments together after fitting around existing stuff that could not be moved. I actually added the mounting brackets LAST as they ended up being at odd angles to match the holes in the frame I was using.

polypro is not too expensive, easy to work with, and the heat welder is kinda like a MIG or a caulk gun once you get the hang of it.


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## dtbaker (Jan 5, 2008)

snowdog said:


> My initial thought was to secure the battery packs to the vehicle and then to provide some insulation as you mentioned. I am very new to this so always looking to learn. Thanks for your comment.


The insulation in the bottom has proven to be of marginal use as the weather in santa fe is quite mild. It does minimize the HEAT from the motor when at a stop, but then it doesn't really matter.

I'm actually considering cutting 1" or 2" holes in bottom and side of battery boxes to save a little weight and enable air flow thru the battery channels while maintaining structural integrity. My Miata is not intended for cold winter and snow driving, so the battery cooling with car in motion is more important that keeping batteries warm in winter for this project.


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

dtbaker said:


> probably partially left over from lead-acid days.... polypropylene lasts way better when exposed to acid (or water from underneath) and has the added benefit of not acting as a giant ground path for any frayed insulation or loose ends that touch the box.


I don't think that the construction of battery enclosures on modern production EVs has anything to do with lead-acid batteries or traditional practices. Also, the box for the lead-acid starter/accessory battery in essentially any modern car is moulded plastic.

There are not frayed or loose bits in a production EV battery box. Terminals have insulating covers.


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

snowdog said:


> My initial thought was to secure the battery packs to the vehicle and then to provide some insulation as you mentioned.


What heat transfer are you trying to reduce with insulation? Your modules are designed to be mounted on a thermal management plate, with circulating liquid which can cool them when they run hot due to use, and can heat them to prepare them for use in cold weather. Without the active thermal management systems, heat transfer through the enclosure is all they have to get rid of excess heat, or to warm up if stored in a warm place. Most of the time, the outside temperature is probably more desirable than the temperature they would reach on their own in an insulated box.

The front of the front pack is going to be blasted by warm air from the radiator, so that might be a place for insulation.


----------



## dtbaker (Jan 5, 2008)

brian_ said:


> I don't think that the construction of battery enclosures on modern production EVs has anything to do with lead-acid batteries or traditional practices. Also, the box for the lead-acid starter/accessory battery in essentially any modern car is moulded plastic.
> 
> There are not frayed or loose bits in a production EV battery box. Terminals have insulating covers.


you asked why DIY builds usually don't use metal boxes.... I gave you my opinion. production builds are different than DIY tons of ways OBVIOUSLY.


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## dtbaker (Jan 5, 2008)

brian_ said:


> What heat transfer are you trying to reduce with insulation? Your modules are designed to be mounted on a thermal management plate, with circulating liquid which can cool them when they run hot due to use, and can heat them to prepare them for use in cold weather. Without the active thermal management systems, heat transfer through the enclosure is all they have to get rid of excess heat, or to warm up if stored in a warm place. Most of the time, the outside temperature is probably more desirable than the temperature they would reach on their own in an insulated box.
> 
> The front of the front pack is going to be blasted by warm air from the radiator, so that might be a place for insulation.


exactly.... in a 'supercar', it is unlikely it will be run much in very cold air, or stored/charged outside. So the primary goals of the battery boxes are to hold securely, protect from accidental shorting with exposed wiring/terminals, and provide *some* air circulation as a bonus if things get warm during high current loads.

My original design was based on the need to provide some warming in a vehicle that would be stored/charged outside year/round and driven all winter. As I pointed out I'm doing away with the insulation, and probably making holes to allow air next time I pull the battery boxes in my eMiata, which is why I mentioned it for the OP consideration.


----------



## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

dtbaker said:


> you asked why DIY builds usually don't use metal boxes.... I gave you my opinion. production builds are different than DIY tons of ways OBVIOUSLY.


Fair enough, but the question remains of why production EVs seem to _need_ metal, and DIY builders think they don't. Also, the same straightforward methods used in production EVs to prevent accidental short circuits are suitable for DIY construction. Sure, a DIY builder probably won't injection-mould polymer terminal covers, but insulating covers are still practical and used.


----------



## dtbaker (Jan 5, 2008)

brian_ said:


> Sure, a DIY builder probably won't injection-mould polymer terminal covers, but insulating covers are still practical and used.


uuuuhhhh, yeah. the most likely reason DIYers build battery boxes with wood, plastic, or open metal frames is that few are much good at forming or welding thin metal. Much easier to make an entire box that is electrically insulated and easier to work with 'normal' tools.

What I don't get Brian is why you seem to spend more time shooting this fella down than giving constructive solutions and alternatives?

The OP last video was (partly) about battery boxes, so I thought I'd share that 1/4" polypro is pretty easy to work with, strong, chemically inert, thermally stable at operating temps likely in the car, and non-conductive 'all over' which is a real bonus for safety in a DIY where not all connections and wiring is up to production standards.


----------



## WattsUpDoc (Sep 25, 2019)

dtbaker said:


> The OP last video was (partly) about battery boxes, so I thought I'd share that 1/4" polypro is pretty easy to work with, strong, chemically inert, thermally stable at operating temps likely in the car, and non-conductive 'all over' which is a real bonus for safety in a DIY where not all connections and wiring is up to production standards.


As I'm starting to look at battery box design myself, thanks for the suggestion of polypropylene. The workability of it compared to sheet metal is really tempting. I'm sure the one risk is in the case of a battery fire (due to an internal short in a failed cell for example), where I'm sure the plastic box would not survive. (Thanks Samsung for making us all over-sensitive to the potential for disaster.) It's obviously not a likely case, but a serious risk that the EV manufactures wouldn't take.

Fiberglass would be another interesting option to consider.


----------



## ishiwgao (May 5, 2011)

WattsUpDoc said:


> Fiberglass would be another interesting option to consider.


there are fireproof fibreglass too, if you want to really get it safe!


----------



## snowdog (Oct 22, 2018)

Progress continues, first power-up of the Tesla Motor Controller

https://youtu.be/lSp1Xi_aFUQ


----------



## snowdog (Oct 22, 2018)

Figuring out pedals and panels

https://youtu.be/SqZxfmT95o0


----------



## snowdog (Oct 22, 2018)

Assembling the front battery box

https://youtu.be/a3Ko-OAiFB4


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## snowdog (Oct 22, 2018)

Attempting to start the front battery pack wiring

https://youtu.be/Pfk7S6PQYVo


----------



## snowdog (Oct 22, 2018)

Starting on the rear frame modification

https://youtu.be/HgLIncGH4U0


----------



## joekitch (Sep 13, 2013)

remy_martian said:


> I'm old school Jaguar vs BMW/Audi knockoff.
> 
> Seems there's one German suspension designer that keeps getting himself fired, and is making the rounds -- latest stop, Tesla.
> 
> ...


i wonder, does this suspension geometry criticism extend to the model 3? or is it specific to the model S?


----------



## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

joekitch said:


> i wonder, does this suspension geometry criticism extend to the model 3? or is it specific to the model S?


These concerns have been addressed in previous posts in this thread, including #21 and #24. Other than the height of the struts when used in applications with limited height available (not a concern in this case, as mentioned in post #28 and illustrated in #30), I don't see any valid concerns.

Whatever one thinks of the Model S/X rear suspension, nothing other than the height of the spring/shock struts applies to the Model 3 rear suspension, which is an unrelated design. The Model 3 is a five-link of the type popularized by the Mercedes W201 series, and currently used in various other cars as well, such as the Mazda Miata/MX-5, previous generation Camaro, and Cadillac ATS and CT5. The suspension links of the Model 3 are visible in the overhead ghost views of the car published by Tesla. Published reviews of the Model 3's handling are generally favourable, as I would expect from the suspension design, low centre of mass height, and good front-to-rear mass distribution.


----------



## joekitch (Sep 13, 2013)

ok, sound like my decision to stick with the model 3 motor and suspension (on my project) is looking better and better


----------



## snowdog (Oct 22, 2018)

The Tesla motor is 1/2 installed

https://youtu.be/5cHTQMPp1VU


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## snowdog (Oct 22, 2018)

Time to ask the forum for some help. I am building a car from scratch, including the wiring. I am looking to incorporate an inertia switch in the case of an accident. My questions are...should I have it cut power to one or both contactors? Any other systems that I should make sure to kill or make sure to leave on? Best suggestions for mounting location? Best brand or type?


----------



## MattsAwesomeStuff (Aug 10, 2017)

If you're going to have two contactors, might as well cut power to both of them.


----------



## Roadstercycle (Jun 26, 2019)

snowdog said:


> Time to ask the forum for some help. I am building a car from scratch, including the wiring. I am looking to incorporate an inertia switch in the case of an accident. My questions are...should I have it cut power to one or both contactors? Any other systems that I should make sure to kill or make sure to leave on? Best suggestions for mounting location? Best brand or type?



I have mine cutting off the 12 volts that are running the contactors ( I run 3). I don't believe there's a good or bad place to mount it as long as it's in the correct mounting position that is recommended by the manufacturer. I have mine in the back by the contactors standing up under a piece of lexan with a hole in it to be able to stick a pencil or similar to reset it. My car actually has a stock one in the drivers kick panel too which was used to shut off the electric fuel pump circuit in case of an accident.


----------



## snowdog (Oct 22, 2018)

Tesla Motor is installed

https://youtu.be/gAamuOXk1QA


----------



## snowdog (Oct 22, 2018)

Working on electric battery cooling

https://youtu.be/5vLKSlC1gW0


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## 4G63T (Jan 9, 2019)

Excellent work. I’m looking forward to seeing you complete this.

Which Lincoln welder model are you using ?


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## snowdog (Oct 22, 2018)

4G63T said:


> Excellent work. I’m looking forward to seeing you complete this.
> 
> Which Lincoln welder model are you using ?



Thanks Friend!

I am using a Lincoln Electric Pro Mig 180


----------



## kennybobby (Aug 10, 2012)

*Re: cell monitor wiring*

You have a great project going and it's always fun to watch the progress.

You may already realize this but i'll point it out for the next guy. When you have the modules tied together with the large lug jumpers and the BMS wires plugged in, then there can be a large voltage between the ends of the BMS cell monitor wires. 

In the wiring video it looked like those monitor wires were just cut off flush on the loose ends. If the tiny exposed ends happen to accidentally touch chassis metal and short together it might cause a fire from melted insulation and wires.

Be aware that they are hot when it comes time to cut, strip and crimp the loose ends.


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

*Re: cell monitor wiring*



kennybobby said:


> You may already realize this but i'll point it out for the next guy. When you have the modules tied together with the large lug jumpers and the BMS wires plugged in, then there can be a large voltage between the ends of the BMS cell monitor wires.
> 
> In the wiring video it looked like those monitor wires were just cut off flush on the loose ends. If the tiny exposed ends happen to accidentally touch chassis metal and short together it might cause a fire from melted insulation and wires.


Good catch! 



kennybobby said:


> Be aware that they are hot when it comes time to cut, strip and crimp the loose ends.


... or unplug the BMS harnesses from the modules before working on the the other ends, or even better don't plug the harnesses into the modules until they are properly terminated on both ends.


----------



## snowdog (Oct 22, 2018)

*Re: cell monitor wiring*



kennybobby said:


> You have a great project going and it's always fun to watch the progress.
> 
> You may already realize this but i'll point it out for the next guy. When you have the modules tied together with the large lug jumpers and the BMS wires plugged in, then there can be a large voltage between the ends of the BMS cell monitor wires.
> 
> ...


Thanks!

I love this forum. Everyone is willing to comment and help me along the way. I have so much to learn.

Thanks for keeping me safe.


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## snowdog (Oct 22, 2018)

Frame is finished. Modifications are complete for the Tesla Motor.

https://youtu.be/hAjczppZ_Ms


----------



## remy_martian (Feb 4, 2019)

I'm a bit (ok, a lot) concerned about the tube running forward and backward from the upper spring mount and disagree with the stresses and load results you're simulating. False assurances, IMO.

Firstly, the point of a frame is to transmit all loads to and from *nodes*. All piping gets cut ("fishmouth") to where their centerlines meet at a point in space. You have "close" but you don't get a cigar because your tubes don't meet up, they create bending moments in a frame that's not supposed to see *any*. Instead of transferring loads in a straight line lengthwise to a given tube, the spring mount and fore and aft "triangulation" tubes produce a bending stress...in the worst possible place which is halfway along the tube between those triangular uprights. 

Your bumper is also going to damage the frame badly with even a small hit because you've loaded it into a bending point along the uprights. 

You have a lot of points in your frame mod where the tubing is loaded in directions other than purely lengthwise...that goes against the point of a spaceframe which is no beams (bending loads). 

I'd also point out your idea of "bracing" half way along a tube to "reduce stress" does nothing because the tubes are never supposed to bend (or buckle). 

I think the FEA has given you a false reassurance to bad design practice, not to mention questionable loading and analysis. 

I'd go back to the drawing board and triangulate every node and ensure none of the tubes in your redone frame (sorry, but I think you should rip it all out and start over again) are loaded anywhere but at a properly jointed and triangulated node. 

I'm not a mechanical engineer, and I'm sure there are others here who can explain good practices better, but what you did in the frame adaption looks really scary to my eyeball review.


----------



## Emyr (Oct 27, 2016)

I agree with Remy.


----------



## MattsAwesomeStuff (Aug 10, 2017)

When I was looking at the pics of the frame and watching the video, I was thinking "Is that how that works? That doesn't seem to make sense. But, what do I know..."

Remy's explanation makes a lot of sense.

Like, on the previous image... I don't even understand why most of the tubes are there or what they're supposed to do.

The place where the suspension bolts to the frame on the right, the tubes that come out of that, off to the side, the ones that look like the crossed legs of a 4 year old who has to pee... is that going to transfer the load properly? Or just untwist?

Where do they transfer the load to? The middle of the cross tube up top?

What about the little brace thing between the two crossed legs. Why is it there? What load is it helping to support? It's strong in the direction of the two legs bending inward at the middle... but I can't see how there would ever be any load from that place in that direction.

I can't say I'd have done any better, but, if I was starting out with a suspension and then adding frame tubes around it, I don't know if I'd really have any of those tubes.


----------



## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

I agree that the diagonal frame tubes all seem to be in the wrong places; it would have made more sense to me to cut off the original tubing further forward, and rebuild with fewer diagonals running to where they really need to be. On the other hand, it doesn't need to be optimal, it just needs to work.



MattsAwesomeStuff said:


> ... the ones that look like the crossed legs of a 4 year old who has to pee... is that going to transfer the load properly? Or just untwist?
> ...
> What about the little brace thing between the two crossed legs. Why is it there? What load is it helping to support?


If I understand what Matt is saying, this is about how the frame tubes meet the plates at each of the four subframe mounts.

I think that I understand what happened here: the tubes were run to a flat oval plate at each mount, with the mounting bolt in the middle. With no way to make a tube hit the middle of the mount without blocking access to the bolt, the solution chosen was to land on two separate points around the bolt. That leaves the crossed legs, and a tube as a gusset to keep everything from twisting more or untwisting, or perhaps to keep the tubes from deflecting different amounts and bending the plate.

The conventional solution to this would be to put a short large-diameter vertical tube around the bolt (centred on the bolt hole), then fishmouth the tubing to meet the side of that vertical tube, then probably fit gusset plates between the frame tubes. This is a mediocre example (the first I could find); you have to imagine the tube angled upward (and properly fitted) for the subframe mount in this car:








This example is part of the brace shown (about 2/3rds of the way down) on this page: Automotive Welding: Tube Steel Projects Step-by-Step, in case anyone wants to see it in context. I'm not recommending this guide, just using it to illustrate this joint design.


----------



## snowdog (Oct 22, 2018)

Thanks friends for the comments. I will go through a couple of my thoughts, then I would like to explore more of the concerns. It is never too late to make a good decision.


----------



## MattsAwesomeStuff (Aug 10, 2017)

snowdog said:


> Thanks friends for the comments. I will go through a couple of my thoughts, then I would like to explore more of the concerns. It is never too late to make a good decision.


I almost missed the PDF you posted.

Did you mean to post that text in your post?

It does add some context as to why you made the decisions you did, but I'm not sure what you ended up with is strong in the way it has to be.

When I look at the way you changed the bracing, it looks like you've changed where the stresses are directed, in a bad way. 

That said, Brian makes a good point in that, it doesn't have to be optimal, it just has to work. It might be both significantly weaker and heavier than it needs to be, but, as long as it's not too weak or too heavy, oh well. If you've worked out the design with FEA and it said it's strong enough, it's probably strong enough (just, heavier than it could be).

Because you're building a supercar and doing such a nice job of everything else, I'm leaning a bit towards thinking you'd probably want to rethink and rebuild this (and this, if anything).

Also I should mention that I haven't really commented at all but I appreciate that you're documenting the build so well. I've enjoyed watching, just haven't had much to say or contribute.


----------



## Functional Artist (Aug 8, 2016)

Kool Project! 

My (2) cents: since your this close, I'd finish 'er up & give 'er a go.

This way you can "test run" all of the systems (propulsion, charging, monitoring & even, chassis/components) 
…& working the "bugs" out 
(so much can be learned from these type of "hands on" tests)

Then, start working on a version 2.0 

* Keep in mind that the way that type of vehicle is designed, the rear chassis area not only supports the weight of the motor
…& the torque that can/will be applied by that motor

But, also the weight of the vehicle
…& all of the dynamic forces that can/will be applied by the vehicles weight 
...plus, the torque & thrust forces that can/'will be applied



* Maybe look at/study an Aerial Atom frame
...like how it transfers the "thrust" forward along the whole chassis
…& especially, notice how the engine or motor is designed to mount into it's compartment

If interested, here are a couple of short videos illustrating the rear chassis area of an Atom

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VhIFVYZTxnI

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M6cY6ompzvs


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## snowdog (Oct 22, 2018)

Functional Artist said:


> Kool Project!
> 
> My (2) cents: since your this close, I'd finish 'er up & give 'er a go.
> 
> ...



Thanks for the advice. I was leaning towards your suggestion, since everything is welded up and ready to test. I figured I would mount some go-Pro cameras on the frame and see how the frame behaves when I give it a test drive.


----------



## snowdog (Oct 22, 2018)

Finishing up the brake lines

https://youtu.be/PvQjC6-Y2j4


----------



## snowdog (Oct 22, 2018)

Battery box is taking shape


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

snowdog said:


> I will go through a couple of my thoughts, then I would like to explore more of the concerns...


The PDF document attached to this post describes the approach nicely. For the subframe mounting points, everything seems to have followed from choosing an oval plate with a tube landing on each side of the subframe mounting bolt, and a set orientation of those plates. The odd tubing directions result from that; it would have made more sense to start with a plate big enough to accomodate the tubing on any side, place the tubing to make sense structurally, remove the extra plate area, and finally gusset appropriately. But again, if the stresses on those oval plates don't excessively flex them, it will all work.

I had suggested - perhaps for future projects - a fabrication technique:


brian_ said:


> The conventional solution to this would be to put a short large-diameter vertical tube around the bolt (centred on the bolt hole), then fishmouth the tubing to meet the side of that vertical tube, then probably fit gusset plates between the frame tubes.


In reading an unrelated discussion, I ran across a video in Instagram which shows this technique. It happens to be another project using a Tesla Model S drive unit, and apparently the suspension and subframe, but not the complete stock subframe (probably because it is mixing a large rear drive unit with front suspension).


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## snowdog (Oct 22, 2018)

Thanks Brian!

I will give my current setup a try. Your suggestion looks very nice.


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## snowdog (Oct 22, 2018)

The batteries now all have a place to live.

https://youtu.be/3bqqs1FmUuc


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

I never understood why the modules installed earlier were mounted with rails in the slots on the module sides, since that's not how they are mounted in the production vehicle (Chrysler Pacifica Hybrid). These behind-the-seat stacks are now using a similar method to the Pacifica, clamping them down with frames... but with much heavier welded angle instead of the stamped brackets of the production car, and with threaded rods instead of brackets which extend down to the mounting plate.

Although there were various references to battery "boxes", these are brackets - I assume that enclosing boxes are still to be built.

So, two questions...

What is the total battery configuration up to? If I recall correctly (it's way too slow to re-watch videos) there were three in a horizontal row in the front, plus one on top of them, there are four here (in two stacks of two), and there are some (2? 3? 4?) on end in the box to the rear of these latest stacks. That would be 10 to 12, presumably to be used in parallel pairs or strings for a suitable pack voltage.

What normally goes in this space behind the seats in this kit car? The fuel tank, or storage, or nothing? The location works well for battery from a mass distribution perspective.


----------



## snowdog (Oct 22, 2018)

brian_ said:


> I never understood why the modules installed earlier were mounted with rails in the slots on the module sides, since that's not how they are mounted in the production vehicle (Chrysler Pacifica Hybrid). These behind-the-seat stacks are now using a similar method to the Pacifica, clamping them down with frames... but with much heavier welded angle instead of the stamped brackets of the production car, and with threaded rods instead of brackets which extend down to the mounting plate.
> 
> Although there were various references to battery "boxes", these are brackets - I assume that enclosing boxes are still to be built.
> 
> ...


12 Battery modules in total. There are 4 up front, 4 in the middle (2 behind each seat), and 4 in the back (just in front of the motor). I will need to put 2 sets of 6 in series and then join the two sets in parallel. 

I had to ask the kit company what this space was used for. It is simply storage.


----------



## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

snowdog said:


> 12 Battery modules in total. There are 4 up front, 4 in the middle (2 behind each seat), and 4 in the back (just in front of the motor). I will need to put 2 sets of 6 in series and then join the two sets in parallel.


Thanks 

So, presumably front pack plus left or right behind-seat pack in one string, and rear pack plus the other behind-seat pack in the other string.



snowdog said:


> I had to ask the kit company what this space was used for. It is simply storage.


That makes sense, assuming that there is no front or rear trunk. Do your battery modules limit how far the seats can go back? Will you have a trunk over the drive unit?


----------



## snowdog (Oct 22, 2018)

brian_ said:


> Thanks
> 
> So, presumably front pack plus left or right behind-seat pack in one string, and rear pack plus the other behind-seat pack in the other string.
> 
> ...


Yes, exactly.

There will be trunk space (limited) over the drive unit. The battery placement does not limit how far the seats can go back.


----------



## snowdog (Oct 22, 2018)

I got the manual!!!

(Sort of)

https://youtu.be/5EdAorT9jbI


----------



## MattsAwesomeStuff (Aug 10, 2017)

That "manual". Wow. It was generous of you to stay so positive and upbeat, but, jeez. What a joke. (First 6 minutes of video).

That's utterly unprofessional and unacceptable.

First, that it took them months to send you a digital manual. Versus, having it available on the website before you even purchase. Or, at least giving you the link the second you made the purchase.

Second, that it's not even a manual. And that the videos don't even have audio.

The level of not-giving-a-shit from them is staggering. This is some night-before middle-school project level of half-assing something to just barely not fail a class. Or, more like, something due at the start of the year that's so late it doesn't matter anymore but if they don't turn it in before summer they're going to need to take summer school.

Like, how hard would it have been to have someone write a script, sit down, and do a voiceover for each video? At least just to talk and narrate what they're doing.

No assembly instructions or torque specs is embarrassing. Really. They should be ashamed that they sold you this "kit".

When you start a project, you have an idea in your head of what a "kit" is and what you'll be expecting when you order. For most people that's a reasonable expectation that they could follow instructions to get a finished product if they had the right tools and materials and put the effort in.

That is not what you got.

What you got is a "Grandpa had an idea and tried to work on this back in the 50s. Pieces are scattered all over the barn, we don't know what he was trying to do. Here's a sketch of what he wanted it to look like. I wish he was still around to help you with it" kind of project.

Kudos to you for getting everything done that you have so far without even labels on the parts.

I'd have been calling the place daily and demanding the documentation. What possible excuse could there be? And with this being all they had available, I think I would've just asked for a refund.

I admire your persistence.


----------



## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

MattsAwesomeStuff said:


> That "manual". Wow. It was generous of you to stay so positive and upbeat, but, jeez. What a joke. (First 6 minutes of video).
> 
> That's utterly unprofessional and unacceptable....


It's certainly unprofessional. Anyone wanting to buy a kit car may need to accept this, as good detailed instructions are probably the exception.

To understand how this situation might come to be, have a look at the Wikipedia page for the K-1 Attack.

As for the lack of assembly specifications... I doubt that anyone associated with manufacturing this kit (or many other kits) has any idea what a suitable bolt torque might be; they don't even know what size the bolt should be, as they just put something in that looked reasonable to them.


----------



## snowdog (Oct 22, 2018)

At first I was pretty upset  and felt that I was misled. 

However, I have come to terms with it. I just accept that this is part of the project. I now revel in the challenge. I think after this build I will feel quite confident in tackling any future builds. (I am sure I will still make questionable decisions )


----------



## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

I should have mentioned earlier that unless the thing being bolted imposes lower limits, an appropriate tightening torque is determined by the bolt itself, and there are published standards for that, by size and material grade. In a few minutes of online searching, you can probably become more qualified to specify a bolt torque than the guy who picked that bolt for the kit...


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## snowdog (Oct 22, 2018)

brian_ said:


> I should have mentioned earlier that unless the thing being bolted imposes lower limits, an appropriate tightening torque is determined by the bolt itself, and there are published standards for that, by size and material grade. In a few minutes of online searching, you can probably become more qualified to specify a bolt torque than the guy who picked that bolt for the kit...


Thanks! Great advice.


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## snowdog (Oct 22, 2018)

Time for more wiring!

BMS wiring

https://youtu.be/Agkct0mlJ_E


----------



## snowdog (Oct 22, 2018)

BMS wiring continues

https://youtu.be/l0EmqIkPM0Y


----------



## snowdog (Oct 22, 2018)

Working on the Tesla Motor Cooling

https://youtu.be/QvyhI067UAc


----------



## snowdog (Oct 22, 2018)

Had to re-do the cooling

https://youtu.be/kkkvMXWGPqc


----------



## snowdog (Oct 22, 2018)

Kit Car Trouble

https://youtu.be/p6rvWVlxJpc


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## MattsAwesomeStuff (Aug 10, 2017)

Ridiculous.

What a bunch of losers.

I know the conversation isn't really active here, but, I would take that a sign that there's just not many questions to ask since you're doing such a good job sharing what you're up to. I look forward to your weekly updates and I doubt I'm alone.


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## snowdog (Oct 22, 2018)

MattsAwesomeStuff said:


> Ridiculous.
> 
> What a bunch of losers.
> 
> I know the conversation isn't really active here, but, I would take that a sign that there's just not many questions to ask since you're doing such a good job sharing what you're up to. I look forward to your weekly updates and I doubt I'm alone.


Thanks friend!

I crossed a decision point very early where I decided to be very transparent with my build. I am a very inexperienced builder and remember all the build threads that I would follow seemed to be "God-level master builders" but later learned that many of the mistakes or missteps were often not shared. I feel that is where the most learning occurs. I wanted to show that there are all types of builders and that there is a great community of support in these forums. I have appreciated all of the comments even those that seem critical are great learning for me.


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## TheLifeHacker (Mar 28, 2019)

I truly appreciate your videos, as they are helping me with my build. Keep up the great work and thank you for sharing.


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## snowdog (Oct 22, 2018)

TheLifeHacker said:


> I truly appreciate your videos, as they are helping me with my build. Keep up the great work and thank you for sharing.


Thanks Friend!


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## snowdog (Oct 22, 2018)

Starting on the high voltage systems

https://youtu.be/6jm0Cju8QZk


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## snowdog (Oct 22, 2018)

Next round of High Voltage. Next week hopefully the motor will be spinning. 

https://youtu.be/SBJVMqbrqS0


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## snowdog (Oct 22, 2018)

It's Alive!!!

https://youtu.be/uOTiEmnUNQw


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## MattsAwesomeStuff (Aug 10, 2017)

snowdog said:


> It's Alive!!!


*fist pump*

This is my favorite moment of any build.

It's your "Fuck yeah!" moment, when things that are supposed to spin, spin. It's the point where it stops being a pile of parts and starts being a car that needs finishing.


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## snowdog (Oct 22, 2018)

Amen Brother!


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## TheLifeHacker (Mar 28, 2019)

Congratulations! 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## snowdog (Oct 22, 2018)

Thanks Friend!


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## snowdog (Oct 22, 2018)

Time to work on the BMS

https://youtu.be/ePkvNXH-Pkg


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## MattsAwesomeStuff (Aug 10, 2017)

.

Seeing how you're connecting the cooling plates... just thermal grease across like, 4 square feet of contact area...










I'm skeptical if you have enough clamping force to actually usefully create a decent enough thermal connection between the battery modules at the plate.

I'd think you'd need some long bolts at least between or around each battery pack and some decent boltdown force to hold them in contact. 

If you think about how much contact force there is on just a CPU headsink clamp, for 4 square inches, there's no way you have 144 times that for the 144x the surface area you're dealing with.

It's one of those things that isn't a problem unless it's a problem, and batteries makes the most heat when being fast charged, but, you've got this giant radiator to cool them, kind of a waste if they're not actually able to pull a lot of heat off.


----------



## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

MattsAwesomeStuff said:


> I'm skeptical if you have enough clamping force to actually usefully create a decent enough thermal connection between the battery modules at the plate.
> 
> I'd think you'd need some long bolts at least between or around each battery pack and some decent boltdown force to hold them in contact.


For comparison, it is interesting to note how Chrysler attaches the same modules to the heat transfer plates of the Pacifica Hybrid.... which is also the mounting of the modules. Formed multi-part steel brackets surround the modules (in groups) and are bolted directly to the heat transfer plate.


----------



## snowdog (Oct 22, 2018)

MattsAwesomeStuff said:


> .
> 
> I'm skeptical if you have enough clamping force to actually usefully create a decent enough thermal connection between the battery modules at the plate.
> 
> ...


@MattsAwesomeStuff

You might be right. 

One of the reasons that I am applying the thermal paste, so I don't need 144x the clamping force. When I clamp and I see all the excess paste squeezed out the sides, I am fairly confident that I will have a good thermal connection for heat transfer. If not, my thermistors will let me know where I need to make some revisions. 

Thanks for your insights.


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## MattsAwesomeStuff (Aug 10, 2017)

> One of the reasons that I am applying the thermal paste, so I don't need 144x the clamping force.


Hmm, I don't think that's how that works.

Thermal paste is to fill in the microscopic gaps between two otherwise touching, flat surfaces, and aid in heat transfer.

I.E. If you clamp two slabs together as hard as you can, unless you're fusing the metals you're still going to have imperfect contact. That is the role of thermal paste, the microscopic level.

It is not effective for gap-filling or because of imperfect fitment. I mean, it's better than air, but, the low-hanging fruit is to clamp better.



> When I clamp and I see all the excess paste squeezed out the sides, I am fairly confident that I will have a good thermal connection for heat transfer.


That just tells you that you have applied excess thermal paste for the amount of gap to fill. It does not tell you how much gapfill exists.

Exaggerated... if you spread 1/8" of thermal paste on like cream cheese, and then clamped them so that a 1/16" gap existed, you'd see half your thermal paste squishing out. You would similarly, falsely conclude that you're fairly confident there is a good thermal connection when there is definitively not.

Thermal paste is surprisingly incompetent compared to closer metal contact. I had a friend who once compared factory flat heatsink (looks perfect to the naked eye) vs. him wet lapping both surfaces by hand a little bit, and the difference between even just that was 50% I think. And both of those situations are imperceptible to the naked eye, let alone the macro differences you'll see.



> If not, my thermistors will let me know where I need to make some revisions.


It's just a shame to have this great big rad and then to still be running less optimum than you could be by just adding a few long clamping bolts.

In the end, meh. Doing nothing is probably fine, skipping thermal paste was probably fine. You're looking at performance differences when stressed. It depends on what you want out of it.


----------



## snowdog (Oct 22, 2018)

@MattsAwesomeStuff

Thanks again for your comments. You have great insights.

In this particular case I do not share your concern. With eight 3/8-16 bolts I have 500-1000 -lb of clamping force for each battery module. I do not feel comfortable putting much more force than that on each battery module. Let me know if you feel differently.

I am using the thermal paste because I want to get rid of any air gaps, Thermal paste is way better a conducting than air. This is what I meant by good thermal connection. You are right that you do not want to fill in large gaps as the thermal paste is much less efficient than the corresponding metals (in my case aluminum). 

I am at a loss to try and think of a simpler way to do this than clamping the battery modules with high force and thermal paste to my cooling plate.


----------



## Frank (Dec 6, 2008)

When I first saw the picture of the modules they reminded me of Enerdels which have a similar aluminum structure for air cooling. These could be used for more active cooling (as you're doing) but I would be careful not to overtighten any clamp bolts, you don't want to deform the cells. 

Does anybody have a pic of how the OEM mounts them?


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

Frank said:


> Does anybody have a pic of how the OEM mounts them?


The best image that I have been able to find is shown in my post above (post #161).


----------



## Frank (Dec 6, 2008)

Thanks, but for some reason it doesn't show up on my computer! Oh well, as long as you don't distort the housing I can't see a problem with what you're doing.


----------



## MattsAwesomeStuff (Aug 10, 2017)

snowdog said:


> In this particular case I do not share your concern. With eight 3/8-16 bolts I have 500-1000 -lb of clamping force for each battery module. I do not feel comfortable putting much more force than that on each battery module.


It's hard to see how you intended to mount them. It looks like you had a clamping plate that was just bolted around the perimeter of the entire box. I was suggesting that they should have a clamping force around each module itself.



> I am at a loss to try and think of a simpler way to do this than clamping the battery modules with high force and thermal paste to my cooling plate.


No, that's the right way. It just looked like you might not be clamping them all the way around.


----------



## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

MattsAwesomeStuff said:


> It looks like you had a clamping plate that was just bolted around the perimeter of the entire box. I was suggesting that they should have a clamping force around each module itself.


It appears from the image which I posted earlier (which has been used in several articles about the Pacifica Hybrid) that Chrysler uses a single frame to mount and clamp a group of three modules, stacked along the axis perpendicular to the cell planes. As long as the thermal management plate is sufficiently stiff across the long dimension of the cells, then it doesn't matter how long the uninterrupted cell stack is as far as clamping to that plate is concerned.


----------



## MattsAwesomeStuff (Aug 10, 2017)

brian_ said:


> It appears from the image which I posted earlier (which has been used in several articles about the Pacifica Hybrid) that Chrysler uses a single frame to mount and clamp a group of three modules, stacked along the axis perpendicular to the cell planes.


What I'm seeing there, is there are fasteners in the middle, holding the modules down. Not a frame spanning the entire box and only clamped around the edges.


----------



## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

MattsAwesomeStuff said:


> What I'm seeing there, is there are fasteners in the middle, holding the modules down. Not a frame spanning the entire box and only clamped around the edges.


I suspect that my earlier comments may not have been clear. I didn't intend to suggest that the whole 3X2 array of 6 module was held only around the periphery of the pack.

There are fasteners all the way around the periphery of each 3-module group, and there are electronics boxes stuck on top (unrelated to securing the modules), but I don't see anything going down between the modules at the 1/3 and 2/3 points along the combined stack. As far as clamping to the thermal management plate is concerned, you only need to clamp down along opposite edges of each module, separated by the long cell dimension.


----------



## snowdog (Oct 22, 2018)

Trouble with the second battery pack

https://youtu.be/3TUlZvarS5A


----------



## MattsAwesomeStuff (Aug 10, 2017)

The BMS flickering and saying the cell is good then bad, could be because it's adding voltage, but then because the cell is faulty, suddenly the voltage is fine (microscopic capacity), but then as soon as it stops adding voltage, the voltage falls back to zero and it has to turn on again.

This could be a faulty cell, or, it could be a faulty BMS that killed the cell. It's hard to know.

What I would've done, first thing when I got the batteries was to make a list and measure each cell's voltage. That would rule out cells that were suspiciously low. 

Then put some small load on the module/pack for a while, incandescent light bulb or whatnot, just to give it "some" drain, then test the voltages again after a while. That would rule out cells that appear to have the correct voltage, but only because their capacity is practically zero.

...

The part where you showed good thermal conductivity... it's hard to tell over camera, but to me that looked like you had quite poor thermal conductivity and quite a bit of thermal paste. By the time you clamp them together there should be almost no paste between the two layers of metal. It should be half-transparent when you pull them apart again. Again, the metal on both sides should be touching, the thermal paste just microscopically fills in the places where it is not. It might still be fine, you'll of course only find out under hardest use whether it's sufficient (especially because you have no better examples to compare it to), so, maybe much ado about nothing. You're building a supercar, so, little details might matter to you in the end, performance-wise. And, performance-wise, heat does become a limit.

...

Discouraging week for you it seems. Especially when you pay for things, you'd kind of expect them to be working (and tested) properly. You're not bodging together junk you found and expecting it to take some extra labor to figure that out. Hopefully EV West straightens things out for you. At least they're more reputable than the kit company


----------



## snowdog (Oct 22, 2018)

I have been in communication with the folks at Dilithium Design. They had me go through several troubleshooting steps. It was indeed a bad BMS unit. It seems the offending BMS was reworked from a previous failed unit. I purchased from EV West who should have not sold me a reworked unit. Dilithium Design has been super helpful and very responsive.

You make good suggestions about stress testing the batteries. 

I still don't share your opinions on the thermal connection. The film is quite thin. The machined cooling plate is as flat as you can make it. I can tighten the screws until the steel frame starts to bend. I am not in favor of machining or wet lapping the battery modules. So I am not sure what is left...clamp with high force and eliminate air gaps with thermal paste


----------



## snowdog (Oct 22, 2018)

Taking a break from electrical to paint calipers

https://youtu.be/wQZ3pK5FlKg


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## TheLifeHacker (Mar 28, 2019)

snowdog said:


> Taking a break from electrical to paint calipers
> 
> https://youtu.be/wQZ3pK5FlKg



Excellent video. Thank you!


----------



## MattsAwesomeStuff (Aug 10, 2017)

snowdog said:


> I purchased from EV West who should have not sold me a reworked unit.


Did you buy a used or refurbished unit? Or were they attempting to sell you a new BMS?

Are they also going to be replacing the batteries that their used and faulty BMS ruined?

...

Boring video this week, but, they can't all be winners.


----------



## snowdog (Oct 22, 2018)

TheLifeHacker said:


> Excellent video. Thank you!


Thanks Friend!


----------



## snowdog (Oct 22, 2018)

MattsAwesomeStuff said:


> Did you buy a used or refurbished unit? Or were they attempting to sell you a new BMS?
> 
> Are they also going to be replacing the batteries that their used and faulty BMS ruined?
> 
> ...



With insistence from Dilithium Design, they are replacing the faulty BMS. They have maintained radio silence on the batteries.


----------



## snowdog (Oct 22, 2018)

DIY aftermarket electronic parking brake. Still having troubles with pack 2.

https://youtu.be/Ci8IeDyotfs


----------



## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

snowdog said:


> DIY aftermarket electronic parking brake.


It thought that sounded interesting, since there are conversions and other projects which use front suspension and brake hardware at the rear of the car and thus have no parking brake... but in fact this is a controller for the normal Tesla OEM parking brake, which uses a separate electric parking caliper from Brembo:
Pantera Electric Parking Brake Controllers
A good thing to know about if using OEM electric parking brakes outside of the complete original vehicle.  On the other hand, a momentary push button with a colour-changing indication seems like a lousy interface. OEM installations usually use a pull-up/push-down switch, so it can be used without looking for an illumination colour.

I think that it should also be interlocked with the drive system, to avoid trying to drive away with the parking brakes locked, or engaging drive without either the service brake or parking brakes applied. This is particularly important with the Tesla Model S/X drive units, as they do not have a parking lock internal to the transaxle, so they are much more dependent on the parking brake than a vehicle with a transmission lock.


----------



## blwnhr (Apr 4, 2019)

brian_ said:


> OEM installations usually use a pull-up/push-down switch, so it can be used without looking for an illumination colour.


It's a single button, dual colour, not two buttons. As it's a momentary signal to the control box it would be easy to use any kind of momentary toggle switch, including an OEM lever switch.



brian_ said:


> I thin that it should also be interlocked with the drive system, to avoid trying to drive away with the parking brakes locked, or engaging drive without either the service brake or parking brakes applied.


This would be quite easy to achieve by running the switch through a CAN-addressable relay.


----------



## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

blwnhr said:


> It's a single button, dual colour, not two buttons.


Yes, I realize that... and that's the problem. Two distinct buttons (for apply and release) would work for a parking brake, but in the fine tradition of the idiotic on/off buttons so beloved of electronic device designers determined to save a buck, you have no idea what this thing is going to do unless you look at the colour of the illumination. I get the one-button thing on a $10 consumer device, but on a car costing tens of thousands of dollars it's just stupid; ironically, auto manufacturers normally handle the parking brake properly... then cheap out with a single pushbutton to control all of the multiple operating modes (off, accessory, engine run) of the vehicle.



blwnhr said:


> As it's a momentary signal to the control box it would be easy to use any kind of momentary toggle switch, including an OEM lever switch.


The OEM parking brake lever switches are not normally a single momentary contact - they have distinct apply and release directions. Since this control box is too stupid to understand distinct apply and release commands (it has only that single momentary contact input), the system can't be fixed with a better switch and any amount of external intelligence.


----------



## blwnhr (Apr 4, 2019)

brian_ said:


> then cheap out with a single pushbutton to control all of the multiple operating modes (off, accessory, engine run) of the vehicle.


As compared to a single ignition key which controls all the operating modes, as we've had since the 1930's? What do you see as the solution?



brian_ said:


> The OEM parking brake lever switches are not normally a single momentary contact


OEM electronic handbrakes are a single momentary up/down.


----------



## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

blwnhr said:


> As compared to a single ignition key which controls all the operating modes, as we've had since the 1930's? What do you see as the solution?


They key has multiple positions (with the start position momentary). The solutions are a rotary selector or a row of buttons (off/acc/run/start).



blwnhr said:


> OEM electronic handbrakes are a single momentary up/down.


In the ones I have seen, the single switch has separate up and down movements (it is a double-throw centre-off momentary switch), not just up or just down.


Anyway, snowdog's one-pushbutton controller works, and much better than trying to make use the Tesla control system for the parking brake, or not having a parking brake at all.


----------



## snowdog (Oct 22, 2018)

Brakes are finished! Getting so close to the first drive.

https://youtu.be/8jZZW74rBpo


----------



## MattsAwesomeStuff (Aug 10, 2017)

I saw you use a dremel cutoff wheel, a sawzall, and then a dremel drum sander to trim the brake pedal.

... have you been doing this whole build without an angle grinder or a metal chop saw?


----------



## snowdog (Oct 22, 2018)

MattsAwesomeStuff said:


> I saw you use a dremel cutoff wheel, a sawzall, and then a dremel drum sander to trim the brake pedal.
> 
> ... have you been doing this whole build without an angle grinder or a metal chop saw?


No chop saw. I do have a large angle grinder that works well for in many situations. For smaller, more precise work, I go for the dremel tool.


----------



## snowdog (Oct 22, 2018)

Seats are mounted! Wheels are in!

https://youtu.be/1m0CU4WuFOM


----------



## MattsAwesomeStuff (Aug 10, 2017)

Argh!

So close to test drive!

That's the second big moment in a car project.

Can't wait for next week.


----------



## snowdog (Oct 22, 2018)

MattsAwesomeStuff said:


> Argh!
> 
> So close to test drive!
> 
> ...


Missed it by that much


----------



## snowdog (Oct 22, 2018)

Mounting some nice wheels!

https://youtu.be/2Kw4FHdQdNk


----------



## MattsAwesomeStuff (Aug 10, 2017)

You're killin' me Smalls.

You don't have a tap and die set?

You can just drill out a slightly smaller nut, then tap it to the correct size. A washer can just be a piece of metal with a hole in it.

Not a chance I'd wait two weeks to test drive my project just because a nut and washer were missing.


----------



## snowdog (Oct 22, 2018)

MattsAwesomeStuff said:


> You're killin' me Smalls.
> 
> You don't have a tap and die set?
> 
> ...


LOL! That was the first thing I went looking for. The nut is a weird pitch 
M14x1. I even tried finding some other bolt that I thought could suffice. Then the Tesla controller was acting up. Trust me, no one was more disappointed than me.


----------



## snowdog (Oct 22, 2018)

I ended up taking some advice and relocated battery modules

https://youtu.be/YE452qYhhcI


----------



## snowdog (Oct 22, 2018)

First Drive!!!

https://youtu.be/ft-KE5C-Rd0


----------



## MattsAwesomeStuff (Aug 10, 2017)

It Verks!

Fuck yeah!

Congrats on the milestone.

Zoom zoom zoom.


----------



## snowdog (Oct 22, 2018)

2nd Drive encounters limp mode

https://youtu.be/HeseV3B96MY


----------



## shamsmehra90 (May 24, 2020)

Hi,
it is my dream to buy such type of car, please suggest some of them mcdvoicesurvey

Regards,
mybk-experience


----------



## snowdog (Oct 22, 2018)

shamsmehra90 said:


> Hi,
> it is my dream to buy such type of car, please suggest some of them


You can buy mine when I am done


----------



## MattsAwesomeStuff (Aug 10, 2017)

You're selling it? Whyyyyy?

...

It would be nice if the things you're paying for actually worked. Seems like almost every system that can go wrong or have a fault, has a fault. The body panels don't line up, the manual is garbage, your BMS is shit, your batteries are shit, EV controls is wonky, your parking brake is screwy.

Like, it's not enough of a challenge to build a kit car, you gotta run around and fix other people's problems too.


----------



## snowdog (Oct 22, 2018)

MattsAwesomeStuff said:


> You're selling it? Whyyyyy?
> 
> ...
> 
> ...



Yes, it would be nice if everything worked as intended. I am sure that I am at fault some of the time. But I guess that is how it is when you are blazing new trails. 

I am sure that I will sell it eventually...probably to fund my next build.


----------



## snowdog (Oct 22, 2018)

Battery Relocation and Test Drive

https://youtu.be/PaPptUctwZA


----------



## snowdog (Oct 22, 2018)

Dialing in suspension and wiring the on-board charger

https://youtu.be/2PQJuokReoU


----------



## MattsAwesomeStuff (Aug 10, 2017)

Who'd you buy your batteries from again?

EV West?

Bad products, bad service?

Not speaking very highly of them.


Surprising to me how much better it looks with the right color of yellow paint.

I missed how you fixed the parking break issue. Just took it apart and put it back together and seemed to have fixed it? Just a loose wire then?


----------



## snowdog (Oct 22, 2018)

Batteries came from EV West. I researched a lot before I bought from them. I even made a trip out to visit them. They have a lot of great expertise and know how. They were very pleasant to interact with face to face and answered all of my questions. My major complaint is their responsiveness/customer service. My emails will go weeks unanswered to the point that I am wondering if they are still in business. I will follow up an still no response. It is like pulling teeth. I don't know...maybe my expectations are too high.

The parking brake...pantera electronics made a comment in my YouTube video that based on the green light being on when my car was not switched on, that my 12V constant and 12V switched were swapped. I swapped them back and things seem to be working better (knock on wood).


----------



## donstephens (May 30, 2020)

Really enjoying your build, although it's discouraging to see all the issues you have had to contend with. Hope you have smooth sailing going forward and I will look for more of your videos.


----------



## snowdog (Oct 22, 2018)

donstephens said:


> Really enjoying your build, although it's discouraging to see all the issues you have had to contend with. Hope you have smooth sailing going forward and I will look for more of your videos.


Thanks Friend!


----------



## snowdog (Oct 22, 2018)

High Voltage Systems (kinda) Working

https://youtu.be/Zhh1q7wurts


----------



## snowdog (Oct 22, 2018)

Problems, problems, and more Problems

We find brake lines leaking. We find the steering rack leaking. The controller will not boot up. And we might need a new radiator. Sigh...

https://youtu.be/V4HHwKF0SJc


----------



## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

snowdog said:


> We find brake lines leaking


I would be cautious about repeatedly tightening brake line fittings. If they're banjos with gaskets that might be okay, but hard lines with flare fittings are really only intended to be installed once; every time they are tightened parts distort.

From the post note about "brake lines" I wondered if you had an issue with the mix-and-match collection of components using incompatible fittings (fitting types typically used in North America and European are different), but if it is only one connection maybe that's not a problem.


----------



## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

snowdog said:


> We find the steering rack leaking


In the video, you say that it is a manual rack... but it has hydraulic fluid in it and fittings. Are you sure that it is a manual rack? My guess is that this is a power rack which has been internally bypassed to defeat the power assist, and hasn't had the fittings properly capped.

I would guess, given the use of Audi components for the front suspension, that this is a VAG (VW/Audi/etc) rack... but who knows. It's hard to find a manual rack in a modern production vehicle, and there will be the same issues with any brand. If wanting a manual rack using modern powered components, I assume that the cleanest installation would use a rack intended for use with an electrically powered column, but with a non-powered column (from a vehicle which uses an electrically or hydraulically powered rack)... but of course when this kit was designed electric steering assist was too new.


----------



## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

I took an old Subaru power steering rack apart

I found that the actual rack and pinion were grease lubricated - the power steering bits used hydraulic fluid

So for the rack in my car I simply capped off the inlets and outlets on the pinion part,
Drained the oil and connected the two ends of the actual ram on the rack together


----------



## 4G63T (Jan 9, 2019)

Duncan said:


> I took an old Subaru power steering rack apart
> 
> I found that the actual rack and pinion were grease lubricated - the power steering bits used hydraulic fluid
> 
> ...


Did you do similar to this conversion? 

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=KP3SkSfO9uQ


To Snowdog: if you have an actual powered steering rack and trying to use it as manual, I would highly recommend you convert it to manual as shown in that video.


----------



## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

Watched the video
WHAT A LOT OF CRAP

I would not let that idiot anywhere near my steering


----------



## 4G63T (Jan 9, 2019)

Duncan said:


> Watched the video
> WHAT A LOT OF CRAP
> 
> I would not let that idiot anywhere near my steering


Why do you feel that way ? 

I’m not an engineer but from what little I know what he did makes sense. We are taking a steering rack engineered and designed to run with power steering fluid pressure assistance and trying to run it as a manual steering rack. 

Internally it has a “disk“ on the rack that the fluid will push to power assist with steering. Disconnecting the pump and leaving fluid in it or simply draining it and leaving air will create resistance. The disk will act like a piston trying to push fluid or air. Not to mention the disk will drag against the cylinder wall. So at the very least I think it would be best to remove the that disk. 

As for the pinion side, there is the valves that direct fluid per the steering wheel input. For this to work, a slight “free play“ exists in the steering wheel. If you steer left the valves will move to direct fluid appropriate to push the disk in cylinder left. And Vise Versa. At this point why not just remove this valves and weld the two halves solid ? 

I have done this to my car . I can’t comment on driving feel yet, but with just the wheels off the ground there is a noticeable difference!


----------



## MattsAwesomeStuff (Aug 10, 2017)

Rough week.

Troubleshooting is the worst.

I have nothing helpful to contribute, but, thanks for sharing your struggles.


----------



## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

Duncan said:


> I took an old Subaru power steering rack apart
> 
> I found that the actual rack and pinion were grease lubricated - the power steering bits used hydraulic fluid
> 
> ...


That's an ideal situation for manual conversion, and it is apparently typical (the actual rack and pinion are greased, not lubricated by the power steering fluid).

In snowdog's case, we see two port plugs, but no bypass hose, suggesting that it is internally bypassed, unless there is also an external bypass hose or tube that I just didn't notice. It may be that the port plugs are just junk, and other than using proper plugs everything appropriate has already been done.



4G63T said:


> To Snowdog: if you have an actual powered steering rack and trying to use it as manual, I would highly recommend you convert it to manual as shown in that video.


I assume that snowdog has a hydraulically power-assisted rack which is already not powered.



4G63T said:


> Did you do similar to this conversion?
> 
> https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=KP3SkSfO9uQ





Duncan said:


> Watched the video
> WHAT A LOT OF CRAP
> 
> I would not let that idiot anywhere near my steering


For someone who does his own work on a competition vehicle, he seems to have a surprisingly poor grasp of automotive terminology. He tries to use an adjustable wrench instead of a properly-sized wrench, then when that isn't big enough he uses pliers on a hex nut - that alone would keep me from allowing him to touch my vehicle. He does seem to understand how the bits work... just not what they're called or how to work on them.

On reassembly of the part on which he uses the pliers, he clearly has no idea of what method to use or the significance of the spring loading torque.

Overall I agree with Duncan: regardless of the value of the de-powering approach, the guy who made this video would not be allowed to touch any component of my vehicle.



4G63T said:


> I’m not an engineer but from what little I know what he did makes sense. We are taking a steering rack engineered and designed to run with power steering fluid pressure assistance and trying to run it as a manual steering rack.
> 
> Internally it has a “disk“ on the rack that the fluid will push to power assist with steering. Disconnecting the pump and leaving fluid in it or simply draining it and leaving air will create resistance. The disk will act like a piston trying to push fluid or air. Not to mention the disk will drag against the cylinder wall. So at the very least I think it would be best to remove the that disk.


That makes sense. The part which you are suggesting to remove (and which he does remove) is the piston of the hydraulic cylinder which is formed by the rack housing (the cylinder) and the rack which moves within it (the piston shaft). Of course, our "expert" on video calls this piston a "valve-type setup" because it has a ring seal which looks like the seals on the spool valve, which someone told him is a valve.

Using a rack from a column-powered electrically assisted steering system would avoid any hydraulics in the rack.



4G63T said:


> As for the pinion side, there is the valves that direct fluid per the steering wheel input. For this to work, a slight “free play“ exists in the steering wheel. If you steer left the valves will move to direct fluid appropriate to push the disk in cylinder left. And Vise Versa. At this point why not just remove this valves and weld the two halves solid ?


It isn't quite free play, since the way the rotary valve works requires that it be springy, rather than just loose, so increased force by the driver results in increased resistance the two parts of the pinon shaft as connected by a torsion bar (which is springy but has no free play) and a loose set of splines (as a backup, and limit on torsional movement). I agree that ideally this would be locked solid, and I realize that a custom pinion shaft is probably unreasonable, but there must be a better way than welding on a shaft with an integral gear, if you understand how it is put together. The heat-affected zone after welding is huge.

Using a rack from a column-powered electrically assisted steering system would eliminate all of the hydraulics, including this valve; the sensing function would be in the column (which wouldn't be used).

This video was offered by YouTube on the side when I watched the first video:
The ULTIMATE Guide For How To De-Power A Miata Steering Rack
This guy gives more clear directions, apparently knows what he is talking about, and has a better tool set... but still uses one adjustable wrench on a nut, and uses a screwdriver as a punch. This guy installs the lash adjuster properly, and explains what he is doing. This is, again, a Mazda MX-5 example, and all the details will vary between racks, so much of the nice detail is of no value to snowdog.
There was another MX-5 rack depowering video offered. I watched it in fast-forward jumps: it is the same piston removal without rotary valve locking as the second video (and this guy is better equipped than the second one, and everyone knows more about what they're doing the first guy).

In this version, the piston is removed, but the rotary valve is left alone. For someone starting from a stock rack, it would be interesting to remove the rack piston first, then drive the car and assess the result before locking the rotary valve as a second stage if that seems worthwhile... and if that second stage is done, to assess whether it made a useful difference. This video shows how much angular travel is allowed in the pinion shaft (again, for an MX-5): Miata spool valve slop.


In a quick survey of online material, it appears that welding the rotary valve is common (at least for the MX-5), but not universal. Many would consider Flyin' Miata to be the ultimate Miata (MX-5) experts, and their depowering guide does not modify the valve. A Miata.net discussion suggests that the valve accounts for one-third of the compliance in the steering system of a specific example Miata (including tires). There are few references to other models of cars, probably because few modern cars are light enough to use manual steering with a ratio as quick as a typical power-assisted rack.

A discussion in a forum for the Factory Five 818 kit - which is very comparable to snowdog's kit - suggests that they generally want manual steering (to avoid power steering complications) and typically de-power the stock (Subaru in this case) rack, with or without welding the components of the pinion shaft.


----------



## 4G63T (Jan 9, 2019)

^^ I’ve seen both video clips and a few others online . I posted that video because it was quick reference . 

I can’t find any reasons why some don’t weld . Perhaps they want to reduce possible “bump steer” ? But after speaking with an owner that has done the full de-powering with welding they did not notice any additional bump steer. The Miata folks do have shops and vendors that offer de-powering conversions and here is one that does weld . https://www.miatacage.com/steering-rack-de-powering

Also another good “how to” that has the “slop” video you posted . They also weld it. Not saying it should be done or not. Just another source that does. https://motoiq.com/project-miatabusa-part-5-de-powering-the-steering-rack/2/

I don’t want to further hijack this build thread . Your correct it’s not actual “free play” on the pinion shaft , I was just trying to explain the movement that exists .


----------



## snowdog (Oct 22, 2018)

brian_ said:


> I would be cautious about repeatedly tightening brake line fittings. If they're banjos with gaskets that might be okay, but hard lines with flare fittings are really only intended to be installed once; every time they are tightened parts distort.
> 
> From the post note about "brake lines" I wondered if you had an issue with the mix-and-match collection of components using incompatible fittings (fitting types typically used in North America and European are different), but if it is only one connection maybe that's not a problem.


All my connections require the double flare. I wasn't sure if the residual brake fluid was from initial bleeding. So, I cleaned off the outside of the brake line and made sure it was tight. If I find any more residual fluid, I will remake the brake line and replace the fittings. 

Thanks for your comment.


----------



## snowdog (Oct 22, 2018)

MattsAwesomeStuff said:


> Rough week.
> 
> Troubleshooting is the worst.
> 
> I have nothing helpful to contribute, but, thanks for sharing your struggles.


Thanks Friend! We will persevere.


----------



## snowdog (Oct 22, 2018)

I appreciate all of the comments about the steering rack. I will likely try to take my rack out. At that point I may come back looking for some advice.


----------



## snowdog (Oct 22, 2018)

Alright my electrical friends, I need your advice.

I believe that I might have a high voltage electrical leakage problem. I do not believe that the cooling elements on the LG Chem battery modules are truly isolated from the power. I have made a little video to show what I am finding.

https://youtu.be/BEOsgVNz0xY

I am very inexperienced and this may be normal. Please share your thoughts and advice. Also let me know if you think this is relevant enough to put into another forum section for further advice.


----------



## MattsAwesomeStuff (Aug 10, 2017)

I have no experience with large batteries.

The voltage staring high and then dropping... with how infinitesimally low current draw your multimeter takes to measure the voltage, says to me there is alllllmost zero leakage. And/or it's capacitance.

You get capacitance any time you have a conductor separated by an insulator.

For example, a slab of PVC with aluminum foil on either side. Zero electrical connection (PVC is an insulator), but, it's a capacitor. If you connect a voltmeter to either side, you'll briefly get a voltage that then drains. That voltage can, to a microscopic degree, self-charge as well.

Or, two wires. Like the positive and negative cables.

I'm not enough of an expert other than to hint at capacitance as a cause, maybe someone who understands it better can offer better context.

As to the cooling, I'm not familiar with the internal cooling loop and whether it should be isolated or not. It would be a lot of extra work to be electrically isolated, but the alternative is that the battery cases will carry a huge voltage.

Radiators I imagine cannot be ever isolated, there's not some insulator covering their entire innards and the coolant itself is conductive, so, if there's voltage to the frame there's voltage on the rad. So it seems like that should never be allowed to be the case, and thus there should be voltage on the cooling lines.

Not much help but, just a couple things to bounce off of.


----------



## snowdog (Oct 22, 2018)

I think you are right. I didn't think about the capacitance affect. I guess I should be trying to measure current rather than voltage to see if I have a leak. Thanks for your insights.


----------



## Frank (Dec 6, 2008)

One way to tell is if the voltage drops as you keep measuring. If you put a small incandescent lamp or other load in series (parallel?) with your meter it might give more information. If a small lamp stays lit you have an issue, very similar to measuring current.


----------



## MattsAwesomeStuff (Aug 10, 2017)

snowdog said:


> I think you are right. I didn't think about the capacitance affect. I guess I should be trying to measure current rather than voltage to see if I have a leak.


I suspect it will be almost immeasurably low.

If your multimeter was enough of a load to draw the voltage down in moments, such that whatever the voltage leak is can't keep up, then the leak must either be minuscule or it's capacitance.


----------



## snowdog (Oct 22, 2018)

Fixing some of those pesky problems


----------



## MattsAwesomeStuff (Aug 10, 2017)

Good to hear there was no real current leakage.

Just FYI... the voltage can be there all the time, current is how much charge is flowing.

What you're seeing is that nothing is actually leaking. Nothing is flowing. A charge is building up, but that's all.

In the same respect, rubbing your feet on the carpet can generate 10,000v, enough to zap a doorknob. And that voltage can exist for hours at a time. But zero current is flowing. And if you do get it to flow, zap, and now they're equal and nothing else flows.

You can think of it like a couple drops of water on a leaf of a fairly tall tree. Voltage is the fact that those droplets are not at ground level. It's their potential energy (in fact, voltage is often called "electrical potential").Current is how many drops are flowing per second. You have the equivalent of dew condensing on a leaf, slowly. What you want to make sure is that there's not a trickle, even a small one. Which you've now confirmed. Yes, there is a couple drops on the leaf, but even the way you measure it is enough to wick that moisture away back to nothing. There's no flow, and the rate at which dew condenses is so gradual that it's microscopic, and, it has a ceiling. Next to this tree, is a small dam the same height. The dam (enclosure, insulation) is holding back a lake (battery). Your concern is "Wait, why am I seeing water, off the ground, outside the dam?", the worry of which is, is the dam leaking? Will the lake slowly drain out of this leak? Is this leak going to hurt anyone? And you've discovered, no, there is no leak, the water on the leaf on the tree probably isn't even related except perhaps that around the lake the air tends to be moist. You flick the leaf, the drops fall, and there's no more water to fall.


----------



## snowdog (Oct 22, 2018)

MattsAwesomeStuff said:


> Good to hear there was no real current leakage.
> 
> Just FYI... the voltage can be there all the time, current is how much charge is flowing.
> 
> ...


Great analogy. Thanks


----------



## snowdog (Oct 22, 2018)

Is my car broken?






Controller will not talk to the inverter


----------



## 4G63T (Jan 9, 2019)

Bummer, but seems like it’s headed towards right direction. Im not expert but it’s pretty surprising the tin vs gold pins could also be an issue. Hope you get it driving soon.

I also bought the Tesla Model S Drive unit kit from EV west a month back . There is a 18 week lead time to prepare/ship. I hope I get gold pins when my kit is ready.


----------



## snowdog (Oct 22, 2018)

4G63T said:


> Bummer, but seems like it’s headed towards right direction. Im not expert but it’s pretty surprising the tin vs gold pins could also be an issue. Hope you get it driving soon.
> 
> I also bought the Tesla Model S Drive unit kit from EV west a month back . There is a 18 week lead time to prepare/ship. I hope I get gold pins when my kit is ready.


Good luck friend! I hope you have better luck than me.


----------



## snowdog (Oct 22, 2018)

Hey friends, I tried a new double shielded CAN wire and new gold connector pins for the inverter plug to try and fix the Controller to Inverter CAN communications and...no luck. Anyone know how to check if the inverter is good without disassembling? Or do I start disassembling?


----------



## MattsAwesomeStuff (Aug 10, 2017)

snowdog said:


> Anyone know how to check if the inverter is good without disassembling? Or do I start disassembling?


Is there a way, yes. With the proper equipment and circuit understanding. Probably a couple orders of magnitude of circuit knowledge above yours (an engineer could do this). Especially when it comes down to CAN signals that might have to be reverse engineered or parts of the inverter you'd have to tap directly.

I would call the people you bought it from before you start disassembling and ask them.

Ugh. It never stops. And you _paid_ for a it to work out of the box. This is the stuff I'd be expecting to struggle with on my scabby homebrew setup. This is exactly the kind of thing you pay to avoid :/


----------



## snowdog (Oct 22, 2018)

Controller will still not talk to the inverter.

Moving on to the center console


----------



## MattsAwesomeStuff (Aug 10, 2017)

Well, I'm with you.

When you follow a wiring diagram, and you put A to A and B to B, and you paid for a professional system, it should work.

Suggesting that you should swap out for gold pins was... I dunno man I used to sell car stereos, and that was the kind of bullshit we told customers that we all knew was bullshit. Gold pins are going to help with corrosion in the long term, sure. Anything else? No.

I've already gone from recommending EVWest to recommending them with hesitance and for buyers to keep their eyes open. I think this makes me step towards recommending against them.

Every component you've bought from them has failed to work and cost you week after week of frustrating troubleshooting and delays. Building an electric car is a hard enough project. Diagnosing component failures for parts you paid top dollar for is not fun, challenging, or interesting. It's just frustrating.

Sometimes when buyers say the items they bought aren't working, I think "Buyer is probably ignorant, doing it wrong, not following directions, making dumb presumptions, being arrogant that they know better, doing poor work" etc. But that's not you, and we can see that by the methodical approach you've taken to build things right and to follow directions as much as possible. We see you are patient and deliberate.

It's like EVWest doesn't care about how much of your time they're wasting. If you lived next door to their shop, would they recommend sending their own techs down these endless rabbit holes to chase faults, or would they say that is not worth their technician's time? I suspect the latter. But when it's a customer, who cares. Spend a Saturday swapping gold f'in pins, yeah, that'll cure it. Put a plant in the northeast corner of your power square and do a peruvian folk dance for the weather to change while you're at it.

I suppose when it comes down to it, we may eventually find that you goofed somewhere. But as of now, I'll be telling people to avoid EVWest.

I think my rule at this point would be "You test and ship me a new one, at your cost, and I'll box up and return the old one, at your cost. If it's worth your time to tinker and troubleshoot with it, go for it, but I'm not doing it for you for free anymore." Anything not working exactly as described out of the box? Return it and demand they send a new one. No more using their customers for quality control and technical repairs.


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## snowdog (Oct 22, 2018)

Ah man you make me laugh. 🤣🤣 You have a way of putting life into words


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## Isaac97 (Jun 3, 2019)

And we all thought open source controllers were a pain! A broken commercial controller is insane!!

To be fair, I have read pretty bad things about mixing gold and tin - tin is a problem anyways, and mixing the two causes severe galvanic corrosion. But that can't have caused the whole unit to fall apart.

-Isaac


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## joekitch (Sep 13, 2013)

this is making me more certain of the value of bench testing your entire setup before putting it in the car.
and i mean like, the entire setup, including charging


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## snowdog (Oct 22, 2018)

Trying my first fiberglass panel


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## snowdog (Oct 22, 2018)

Trying another fiberglass panel


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## 4G63T (Jan 9, 2019)

Maybe this can be helpful Idea... Perhaps suggest to EV west if you can separate the inverter and ship that to them for testing ?

The drive unit entirety is heavy, expensive to ship and probably don’t need the motor/gear to be tested. But the inverter if carefully removed, should be fairly easy and inexpensive to ship .

There are a few video clips showing the inverter being removed online. The only difficult part would be packing it. I would suggest building a wood “jig/base” so it bolts on to similar to drive unit , then slide over the cover/case to protect it . Wrap it in foam or bubble wrap to help insulate inside the box further and ship it UPS , FedEX ground etc..


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## snowdog (Oct 22, 2018)

4G63T said:


> Maybe this can be helpful Idea... Perhaps suggest to EV west if you can separate the inverter and ship that to them for testing ?
> 
> The drive unit entirety is heavy, expensive to ship and probably don’t need the motor/gear to be tested. But the inverter if carefully removed, should be fairly easy and inexpensive to ship .
> 
> There are a few video clips showing the inverter being removed online. The only difficult part would be packing it. I would suggest building a wood “jig/base” so it bolts on to similar to drive unit , then slide over the cover/case to protect it . Wrap it in foam or bubble wrap to help insulate inside the box further and ship it UPS , FedEX ground etc..


Great idea! Thanks. I definitely think it is time to dive into the inverter.


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## MattsAwesomeStuff (Aug 10, 2017)

4G63T said:


> Perhaps suggest to EV west if you can separate the inverter and ship that to them for testing ?


Perhaps suggest to EV West that they are free to send their staff over to pick up their garbage, and drop off a cheque for a full refund.

Or, give them a key to the garage, maybe they want to pay them to spend their weekends troubleshooting it and fixing it there instead of at their own shop.

If it's taking a week to get a reply for them, and their ideas are "measure the resistance", they're hoping to be so frustrating you give up or solve your own problems.

It might be okay if they had quick things for you to check, that would be your fault, and they were quick to reply. But if they're neither being helpful nor quick on the reply... they're just stalling for giving your money back.

FIberglass work looks good for a beginner. You make it look easy.


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## snowdog (Oct 22, 2018)

Thanks friend!


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## Hollie Maea (Dec 9, 2009)

I don't know about EVWest. When Matt Hauber started it, it was good and he built up a tremendous reputation. Seems like they have been coasting since he left. At this point they're largely just selling stuff pulled from junkyards. Which is fine, but if you are going to do that, you're obliged to bring some value added to the table in the form of making sure that the stuff works and working hard to rectify it when it doesn't. Otherwise why buy from them?


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## snowdog (Oct 22, 2018)

Tesla Inverter Teardown


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## MattsAwesomeStuff (Aug 10, 2017)

So, what'd EV West have to say?


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## snowdog (Oct 22, 2018)

MattsAwesomeStuff said:


> So, what'd EV West have to say?


I have sent 4 emails and called and left messages twice. Sadly they are maintaining radio silence. Maybe someones close relative died or something, I am trying to give them the benefit of the doubt. It is definitely an exercise in patience.


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## MattsAwesomeStuff (Aug 10, 2017)

snowdog said:


> I am trying to give them the benefit of the doubt.


Give them a call from another number and say you're interested in buying $10,000 worth of stuff immediately. Have a race and see which number they call back first.


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## snowdog (Oct 22, 2018)

MattsAwesomeStuff said:


> Give them a call from another number and say you're interested in buying $10,000 worth of stuff immediately. Have a race and see which number they call back first.


LOL 🤣 🤣 🤣


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## 4G63T (Jan 9, 2019)

I know it’s seller's responsibility (EV West) to resolve etc... I don’t want to start a conversation/debate on that but rather help give some ideas on what it could be and help find a alternate solution SnowDog may be open to. 

I had exchanged a few emails in the past with EV Controls about their T-1C . I believe the drive unit needs to be a certain firmware compatible with their controller. EV Controls said if I got their controller they would help me update the firmware that was compatible if needed for my setup plans. 

Could it be a possible issue with the firmware on the drive unit ? Maybe it got corrupted somehow or was never flashed with the correct firmware ... 

Would you consider contacting EV Controls again to see if they can assist with reinstalling/flashing the correct firmware ?


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## snowdog (Oct 22, 2018)

4G63T said:


> I know it’s seller's responsibility (EV West) to resolve etc... I don’t want to start a conversation/debate on that but rather help give some ideas on what it could be and help find a alternate solution SnowDog may be open to.
> 
> I had exchanged a few emails in the past with EV Controls about their T-1C . I believe the drive unit needs to be a certain firmware compatible with their controller. EV Controls said if I got their controller they would help me update the firmware that was compatible if needed for my setup plans.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the suggestion. I have been in contact with EV Controls. They are great to quickly respond. They offered to take the controller back and double check everything. I sent it back and they turned it around within a week. They also helped me troubleshoot and find the CAN resistance was off on the inverter. I think that is where we are to. So now I am waiting to see if EV West will do anything for customer support or if I should source a CAN board and move forward on my own. I am nowhere near as capable as they are, so I am hopeful they will jump in and help along the way.


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## 4G63T (Jan 9, 2019)

I recall seeing in your past vid that you sent the controller in for testing and all was well with the controller. But I didn’t know about CAN resistance being off. Sorry if it was already mentioned, I must have missed it or forgot about it.

Hopefully Ev West gets back to you soon and you get it resolved.


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## Isaac97 (Jun 3, 2019)

If you have no CAN termination that would certainly cause issues. Measuring resistance from CAN-high to CAN-low should read 60 ohms - if it's very high (over 150 or so) the messages will get corrupted (by things like internal reflections).


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## snowdog (Oct 22, 2018)

My resistance was 23ohms


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## Isaac97 (Jun 3, 2019)

23 ohms doesn't sound good at all... That may or may not be the whole issue though. It's possible that there's a short circuit somewhere either in the wiring (you've probably checked that though) or somewhere internally.

How many devices are on the CAN bus?


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## snowdog (Oct 22, 2018)

The CAN circuit is just the controller and the inverter. We have checked the controller fairly thoroughly and the resistance on the tesla inverter itself does not match a known working unit. Thus the inverter teardown.


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## Isaac97 (Jun 3, 2019)

Yeah that was my next question... I haven't torn one of those down. Good luck with the troubleshooting!


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## snowdog (Oct 22, 2018)

Still waiting on the inverter fix. Starting on the car stereo.


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## MattsAwesomeStuff (Aug 10, 2017)

snowdog said:


> Still waiting on the inverter fix. Starting on the car stereo.


Did you pay by credit card? You can start the dispute resolution process if you're being ghosted. They'll want to insist that you've exhausted communication options first before they get involved.

They usually side with the buyer.


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## snowdog (Oct 22, 2018)

Hmm...I would consider that the nuclear option. I am hoping to still work with them, but maybe I am naive.


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## Hollie Maea (Dec 9, 2009)

Apparently EVWest has been too busy screwing over Roger Hickey to deal with your drive unit,


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## joekitch (Sep 13, 2013)

Hollie Maea said:


> Apparently EVWest has been too busy screwing over Roger Hickey to deal with your drive unit,


that statement's going to need some qualification
from what i understand the shop's been doing literally nothing but the electraliner for the past 90 days, and even then they barely made it


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## Frank (Dec 6, 2008)

I'm waiting for the full story to come out... something about restricting output when Roger was driving then bumping it up for someone else after Roger left? (That someone is veteran driver Jim Hoogerhyde.)

Sent from my SM-T380 using Tapatalk


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## Hollie Maea (Dec 9, 2009)

Frank said:


> I'm waiting for the full story to come out... something about restricting output when Roger was driving then bumping it up for someone else after Roger left? (That someone is veteran driver Jim Hoogerhyde.)
> 
> Sent from my SM-T380 using Tapatalk


Yeah I mean maybe the story is BS but it looks super dodgy, they even scrubbed his logo off the car. I was wondering why the car was only doing ~220 which is pretty slow for a car like that. Then suddenly Roger is out and it can do 240?


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

The Electraliner story is interesting, but I think it belongs in its own thread. I suppose the point is... EV West's attention is with another project.


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## snowdog (Oct 22, 2018)

Tackling some DIY electrical


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## snowdog (Oct 22, 2018)

Working on the door mechanical locks


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## MattsAwesomeStuff (Aug 10, 2017)

You know how in school sometimes (maybe this happens in the workplace too), there were group projects where you know you spent more time and effort to have other people help you, than if you'd just done the entire thing yourself?

Your project is the economic version of that.

You've partnered with all these suppliers, and just paid them so that you don't have to do the work yourself... and then it's even more effort than if you'd just done the work yourself and not paid them for the "no hassle" solution of throwing money at it.

It's like having your 3 toddlers "help" renovate the basement.

You could have ordered parts and soldered your own inverter together by now, easier than buying one.

I admire you for and draw motivation from your persistence and (at least publicly) positive attitude. You wade through them and you keep filming and you're still sharing with others. When snags like these happen to me, I get discouraged, I don't want to keep the camera rolling, I don't want to take time to tell people about it, I put my tools down and don't work on stuff for a month or more. The best I can do is to have some nihilist humor about it. I don't think I've worked on my car in several months now, but seeing your weekly posts is a little nudge for me to get back to it.

...

Your flawlessly bad luck with suppliers continues to continue. Buy two matching door strikers, get mismatched cables. Just can't catch a break  An unbroken streak of I think literally every component so far being wrong, broken, or flawed.

Were you purposely trolling when using the dremel to whittle the cable barrel down, with the bench grinder as your backdrop?  Man you love your useless little Fischer Price power tool for teens. Every chance you get!

...

With the cable being around too tight of a radius, nothing you can do to fix that, you just have to modify things to address it. Don't try to cludge it to work, it'll just wear out even if you manage.

Here's a few ideas:

1 - Fabricate some lever mechanism so that the cable doesn't have to do a 90 degree bend. Since you're changing direction, this is easy. Just a teeter totter. Single lever, single pivot. You pull the top left, it yanks the bottom to the right. That's the same thing as a cable in a semi-circle. 

Door locks usually have all manner of ratsnests of levels. A junkyard might find you what you need, or at least inspire you. You'll have to cut the cable short (they make them in all kinds of sizes, a junkyard again might give you an idea of what vehicle to try), you could also just try trimming, adding a ferrule to constrain and protect the end of the casing, and then adding a crimp-on barrel to the shortened wire. A mountainbike or possibly motorbike shop should have those barrels in various sizes. Or check online when you find the correct name for them.

2 - Cut the housing, leave the cable, but use a pulley in the corner to redirect the cable direction. note that with the cable housing removed, the unshielded cable can only travel in a straight line (the purpose of the housing is to allow it to take non-linear paths).

3 - I had a third idea but, just go with one of the above, they're better.

...

I liked your fiberglassing the nut. When I first saw it I thought "That'll break!" then it did. Then worse, you sort of half-assed secured it and I thought "Oh no, that'll work for a while and give a false sense of robustness, but then it'll break at an awkward time when it's hard to fix! He should reinforce that!" But then you reinforced it, and overkill at that. Well done.

...

EV West is just, a really sad situation. Unnecessarily, cluelessly disrespectful and awful customer service. I presume they're ignoring all emails, not just yours, but, goddamn dudes, at least own up to it and set an autoreply if you know you're going to just bail on your CS for over a month.

Going to go with a chargeback on your credit card and let them wonder and arrange for shipping? If they're not responding to emails, I wonder if they'll similarly ignore VISA and you'll get a default in your favor and get to keep their Tesla branded lawn sculpture.


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## snowdog (Oct 22, 2018)

flawless bad luck 😂😂😂. I need to hire you to write my biography.

For the door lock, I am thinking along the lines of a lever system. May take some time to sort it out.

EV West has been a disappointment. Before I partnered with them, I made a trip out to California to visit them, ask them some questions. They are super nice and very knowledgeable. I think someone else said it best "they think of customers as burdens. They are most interested in their own projects and helping customers is a dirty chore that they would rather not do."


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## 4G63T (Jan 9, 2019)

Have you reached out to owner Michael Bream directly ? I wonder if maybe it’s just the tech associate/department that Is lacking and they are not aware of it....

I can only comment on my experience with the sales department. My interactions with Merritt was very well. He was super helpful with answering my questions , responded on time via email and was available to speak when I called most times. Also he was very honest about drive unit lead times being long from the start. 

There was a 18 week lead time and in between I decided to change my plans and do a small rear and front awd setup as opposed to large rear with small front. As EV Controls Controller doesn’t support Small rear drive unit with dual motor configuration , I spoke with EV west to cancel my order and they refunded me my money that day. Just took the normal 1-3 business days for the money to return back to my credit card but I was happy with the service they provided to me. 

So that is why I wonder maybe it’s the tech department or associate that is dropping the ball and management/owner is not aware of it . Any ways, I wish you good luck and thank you for the videos you post. I’m still learning and the videos have been very helpful to me.


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## snowdog (Oct 22, 2018)

4G63T said:


> Have you reached out to owner Michael Bream directly ? I wonder if maybe it’s just the tech associate/department that Is lacking and they are not aware of it....
> 
> I can only comment on my experience with the sales department. My interactions with Merritt was very well. He was super helpful with answering my questions , responded on time via email and was available to speak when I called most times. Also he was very honest about drive unit lead times being long from the start.
> 
> ...


Yes. I have 8 emails over the last month that have all gone unanswered (I do one every 3-4 days to check in). All to Michael and the support team. I have left 2 voicemails and I left 2 messages with reception. I also worked with Merritt when I ordered. It was hit and miss with him as well. Again, I can't reiterate enough, they are super nice and really knowledgeable. Customer service does not seem to be a priority to them.


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## joekitch (Sep 13, 2013)

unironically; drop a message on their instagram when they make a post, saying you're trying to get in touch, it may be more successful ?


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## snowdog (Oct 22, 2018)

My first try at car interior vinyl


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## snowdog (Oct 22, 2018)

Finishing up some car interior vinyl


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## snowdog (Oct 22, 2018)

Finishing up the door locks


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## 4G63T (Jan 9, 2019)

So what happened with the response from EV West ? Did they provide any advise or support ? 

I’m also curious for any updates from EV Controls ?


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## snowdog (Oct 22, 2018)

From EV West

"My main recommendation is to do a robust installation and NOT use any jumpers and/or plugs that are not present. Absolutely double check every wire and connection before powering up. Any aboration from this is likely in your wiring."

As for EV controls, they have shipped the board (still not here yet). They also included a CAN device that can help if there are any lingering issues. 

Quite the contrast in customer service.


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## MattsAwesomeStuff (Aug 10, 2017)

snowdog said:


> "My main recommendation is to do a robust installation and NOT use any jumpers and/or plugs that are not present. Absolutely double check every wire and connection before powering up. Any aboration from this is likely in your wiring."


If this was the _only_ component they sent you that was faulty? Maybe I'd humor that.
If this was their response 2 months ago, instead of today? Maybe I'd humor that.
If they weren't responding without delay to other calls and emails about people interested in purchasing items from them this whole time (as evidenced by others doing that)? Maybe I'd humor that.
If you were a slap-it-together kind of halfass builder like me with scabby wires dangling about? Maybe I'd humor that.
If they hadn't already suggested snake-oil suggestions like swapping to gold pins? Maybe I'd humor that.

But, all those combined? No, bullshit. It's almost certainly faulty hardware and even if not, you're paying a premium on their products for some level of support. Being ghosted for 2 months coincidentally right at the time when all evidence points to it being faulty hardware they'd have to replace? It's at very minimum scummy of them, even if it may turn out that it was an error on your part (which does not seem likely).

...

Glad to hear you're patched up and mostly working well.

...

One thing I noticed about your lock setup, the pull rod is pretty sloppy compared to OEM spec. You've got it bent in a fairly lazy "L" shape where it attaches to the mechanism, and the bottom of the "L" is far too long.

What I have typically seen is that the bend happens immediately adjacent to the mechanism, I think for two reasons:

1 - So that the direction of pulling is as close to linear as possible.
2 - So that it doesn't change length over time.

On a related note, I'm rather shocked that your lever mechanism works. The two attachment points along the lever are almost side by side. The path travelled by the lock rod is only a tiny, tiny, tiny bit longer than the path travelled by the solenoid rod. Almost zero additional length. I believe you that it needed just that tiny extra bit to be the difference between working or not working, but, I'd rework that.

I'd have some overkill there. The solenoid is not a mechanical connection where it has to be a certain length when extended or retracted (as with levers or screws). Think of it more like a pneumatic piston. It has a max and a min travel, but it's healthy being in between. Even more loose, a solenoid is just an electromagnet, it only has pulling force of any kind when it's powered, and it's only powered while you're holding the button. When you electrically connect it, the iron slug gets yanked towards the front or the rear coil (whichever Is powered, or, it uses a polarized magnet, doesn't matter). After that momentary pulse, it's freefloating, there's nothing that holds it in a particular position, and no reason it had to reach the end. It also has the least yanking strength at the end of its travel (at double the distance, it has 1/4 the strength).

Add all that up, you don't want to abuse the mechanical advantage of the lever too egregiously, at some point the solenoid won't have enough power regardless and may burn up the coil trying to keep pulling... but you have room to play here. Considering how apparently minimal your lock mechanism needed its length to change, I would error on the side of "plenty" of pull length rather than "just barely". The solenoid does not have to bottom out completely. Make sure it has extra to slam it into place. Mechanisms get sloppy over time.

And... back to the "L" shape, with all of the above now in context... that "L" shape does 2 bad things:
1 - It acts like a spring, mushing up the firmness of the mechanism when it needs to have a snap.
2 - It will eventually deform into an even sloppier "L" shape, a "\_" shape. On something that has just barely enough travel, that will no longer work.










Basically in sum, your mechanism is bad and I suspect it'll stop working eventually. 

I suspect you got something like this: https://www.amazon.com/InstallGear-Universal-Power-Actuators-12-Volt/dp/B00CZBQCR2?th=1

But, normally, door locks have what's called a "door lock rod retaining clip" in the mechanism, that really anchors the rod tight and close to its lever. Something like this:










If not, then the other option is the rod for the solenoid won't just be an "L" shape, it'll have 2 90 degree bends, the second 90 degrees into the 3rd dimension. You weave this through the end of the solenoid so that no wobbling is possible. (Also, a dab of lithium grease). Picture worth 1000 words, lemme dig around for examples:










All 3 of those were different people I found adding power solenoids to old C3 corvettes, so, identical problems, no reason to be different. See the 2 90 degree bends in the top one, and the bends are both sharp and with no extra play? That's what you want. The middle one is long, kind of like yours, that's sloppy. It will also just fall out the bottom, nothing holds it there. The 3rd one isn't even a sharp bend, it's going to gouge the soft plastic in the end of the solenoid. And it'll fall out.

All 3 will kind of work, for a while. But it doesn't really take any extra effort to make it good vs. making it sloppy, so, while you're working on it, I'd tighten up those bends.

Factory rods are usually even designed like a question-mark shape, so that the axis you're pulling on is directly in line with the mechanism, not even 1/4" to the side. Rods have to enter lever mechanisms from the side, but they're usually bent to bring them back directly in line with the axis again.

In your case your solenoid is fine (bolted?) but that other rod is kinda junky. You can buy those retaining clips but, junkyard will probably not even charge you for them.

...

Another thing, it's hard to tell from what you showed, but you want to make sure that you are pulling the levers in the lock mechanism in the proper plane and proper direction. For example if a lever is supposed to be pulled left or right, and you'll pulling upwards at a 45 degree, obviously you're not going to get as much travel as you expect, and you'll be putting weird forces on the mechanism. Ditto if you're pulling in a twisted motion, in or out of the plane.

Everything should be in straight lines. If you have to redirect it, you use a lever (if in-plane) or cable (if out-of-plane).

That might be why your solenoid didn't have enough travel originally?

...

Your latch cable, note that bicycle cable will stretch over time, might want to anticipate what would happen if it loses some pull room. It might be fine, it might not. IIRC, brake cable is more stretchy than modern gear cable, and the two cable housings differ. Trivia tangent... brake housing is often cheap, just a long coil of wire. Gear housing is many straight, hard pins all the way around, constrained by an inner and outer sheath. The reason for the difference, with modern index gearing systems (which you click into place, rather than just pull a certain amount as a guess to where the gear is), the shifting mechanism won't work properly if there's any stretch or flex to the system at all. The old style coil housing is too springy (even though you can't feel it, it's microscopic, but it's to much), vs. the pin-style housing. For brakes it's not as sensitive, you just need to be able to say "more" or "less" not "exactly this long". Anyway, imagine 1/8" or 1/4" slop in the cable, would it matter?

I would still have gone with a lever mechanism for that, the tight bend is going to grind the cable . Not sure what type of housing it has, if there's an inner plastic sheath or not, but either type is going to be hard on the cable. If this is a "drive it a few times a year" car, no big deal. If this is a "drive it every day" car, it might eventually wear on you and annoy you (as being stuck in a car with a door that won't unlatch would).

From factory, door cables are constrained on their route, not sure why. Vibration or durability perhaps? Van doors often use a long cable mechanism to release the door, and they're always constrained with plastic clips. On vans, the door latch is below the floor along the sliding rail roller, and the lock/handle mechanism is usually at chest-height (where the exterior handle is). On those, it's the type of 1-way clip that snaps into a hole in the sheet metal. I I guess you could make them work on fiberglass too. There's usually one every 8" or so.


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## snowdog (Oct 22, 2018)

Thanks for the detailed explanation. You probably could have said, your solution sucked, and I would have said yes definitely not ideal. I agree with all of your points. I realized half way through that this lock was never intended to have an electric lock, the travel is way to long. Also where it is located in the car, there is no way to have a straight line with the electric lock. I can get some more precise wire bent, but I may want to rethink the whole strategy. Thanks for the heads up about the bike brake cable stretching as well.


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## MattsAwesomeStuff (Aug 10, 2017)

Naw, your solution's fine, it's just not ideal and it might go weird on you in the future.

What kind of door lock made in the last 20 years is never meant to have a solenoid nearby? That's odd.

If I were you I'd make 2 changes that are probably worthwhile:

1 - Buy or salvage 2 of the rod retainer clips, drill out your lever to accept them. Bend your rod sharper to 90 degrees.

2 - Have just a little more swing on your door lock, provided the solenoid is still strong enough.


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## snowdog (Oct 22, 2018)

Installing the inverter board


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## 4G63T (Jan 9, 2019)

I’m not well educated with electrical circuitry knowledge or terminology , but something came to mind watching the video. 

Without connecting the high voltage circuitry , it seemed to “work”. So it makes me wonder if a faulty pre charge or contactor cause this issue ? Maybe the precharge is not working properly so the drive unit is protecting itself from the voltage/current rush ?


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## snowdog (Oct 22, 2018)

Thanks for the thought. I think I have isolated the problem to that area. I am thinking somewhere either with the precharge circuit or somehow there is a short or something to the motor/inverter or a HV leak. I don't know, I will keep troubleshooting.


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## 4G63T (Jan 9, 2019)

snowdog said:


> Thanks for the thought. I think I have isolated the problem to that area. I am thinking somewhere either with the precharge circuit or somehow there is a short or something to the motor/inverter or a HV leak. I don't know, I will keep troubleshooting.


How would one test the precharger ? Would it be something simple as using a multimeter and measure the voltage ?

Also did you check if the contractors turning on in the correct order ?


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## snowdog (Oct 22, 2018)

I did some additional checking today. The problem seems to go away if I disconnect battery pack 2. So I would assume that the precharge circuit is working if it boots up correctly with pack 1.


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## 4G63T (Jan 9, 2019)

snowdog said:


> I did some additional checking today. The problem seems to go away if I disconnect battery pack 2. So I would assume that the precharge circuit is working if it boots up correctly with pack 1.


I may be mistaken but I don’t see how that would prove the precharge is working properly ? Maybe the opposite. Have you tried the opposite, disconnecting pack 1 and running pack 2 ?

Maybe the precharger can’t handle both packs ?


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## snowdog (Oct 22, 2018)

I appreciate the dialog, it helps. The boot/cycle (as i call it) cycles off when the negative contactor closes. This is prior to the precharge circuit completing to open up the positive contactor.


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## MattsAwesomeStuff (Aug 10, 2017)

4G63T said:


> Maybe the precharger can’t handle both packs ?


Somewhat agreed, half the batteries is half the voltage, but, it would be good to make sure it's not a problem with the batteries first by testing that it works with _either_ one battery pack, not just one particular battery pack. Presuming it's not that.

Since precharge is just a resistor... man that would be weird if it failed trying to precharge double the voltage. That'd be a thermal failure from just a few seconds of use. Would it be that narrowly engineered? 

Hmm... I suppose, if you're talking about voltage being double, the energy stored in the capacitors is increasing by a square (4x when voltage 2x). So, perhaps it's hitting and overcurrent from the inrush at 4x the current from a single pack? Again though, how would it not be able to handle this?

Contactors can weld themselves shut, specifically if you didn't pre-charge and just slammed them on. That's why you pre-charge. But I don't see how even a frozen contactor would cause weird boot cycling. How would the controller even "know" that the contactor is locked on?



> How would one test the precharger ? Would it be something simple as using a multimeter and measure the voltage ?


Walking through the logic, and a rambling of things it could be and how to rule them out...

A pre-charger connects a resistor to the inverter, so that it's forced to charge slowly. Then it bypasses this and connects the battery to the controller directly.

So if you were to measure the DC bus voltage on the inverter, when you power it up you should see the voltage rise quickly at first, then slow down as it approaches max voltage, then hear the relay click off and the voltage stay maxed. How fast is this happening? Half a second? 3 seconds? Something in that ballpark? Is that slow enough for you to measure? 

A failure of the pre-charge would be that it triggers itself off too quickly, before the capacitors are done charging, and then slams the inverter with full voltage. If you were in slow-motion, you'd see the voltage rise slowly but then suddenly leap to max.

Another failure of the pre-charge could be that it never knows when it's done, so it never turns on the HV and eventually this throws an error. With how fast it's cycling, that's a pretty twitchy triggerfinger on "this took too long" though.

I also don't see how that relates to boot cycling.

Boot cycling could be graceful failing, as in, it detecting something bad and aborting. If it's failing gracefully, that's requires some intimate controller knowledge as to why, and I have no advice.

But, it could be failing from being suffocated for power. We know it works without the HV connected at all, so then the question is, why is it failing when you connect the HV? What does the 12v and the HV system have to do with each other?

The 12v battery is replenished from the DC-DC which is powered by the HV system. So, suppose that during pre-charge, the HV sags badly enough that the DC-DC can't sustain proper power, and it suffocates the 12v which the controller relies on. The controller then shuts off. The controller is what holds the contactors on, so when it suffocates then the contactors release, which then un-loads the HV, which lets it power the DC-DC again, which then lets the controller power up. Rinse repeat.

Except, that's not what actually happens. That might be true if the DC-DC was essential, but it's not. The 12v battery is plenty enough ballast to not need the DC-DC to sustain it. We know it works without the HV connected at all. I imagine it's good for like... hours without being recharged. Also, once pre-charged, the caps aren't being drained by the safety discharge fast enough to have to start the process over completely, will they be? I'd expect after 2 or 3 seconds disconnected they'd still have 95% of their power. You might get a power twitch once or twice, but then they'd be fine thereafter. Still, if the 12v battery was almost dead, this might be a fair symptom? I suppose just check that the 12v battery is fully charged, just to rule it out? And/or also just leave a plugged-in 12v charger on it, in case the battery itself has no capacity even if its voltage is good (will happen to old batteries or sulfated ones that sat empty for too long).

What else could suffocate the controller on the 12v rail? What's different now that wasn't true before?

Well, contactors themselves can kind of be power hogs. Not enough to matter to a damned starter battery, but, if the battery was dead, sure. We're turning on contactors and that's enough power draw to perhaps sag the voltage on the 12v. Suppose that the pre-charge is working correctly, but when the main contactor turns on, the 12v load is too high, and then the voltage sags, then the controller suffocates. Again this would almost certainly require a nearly-dead 12v battery AND a disfunctional DC-DC at the same time. Some of the cycling could be explained by the contactor not always being powered, only once the pre-charge is complete.

Just to rule it out, staying long that line... suppose the contactor, from a previous incident, has welded itself off (not typical, but, whatever). So when pre-charge is complete and the contactor tries to turn on... huge current spike trying to break that contactor free. Let's say it never does break free. That would mean the 12v line is really really loaded trying to break the contactor loose (like a jammed motor, current would be high). That might mean every time it tries to move the contactor, over and over, it suffocates the 12v line. Or, it would mean as soon as the pre-charge is over, instead of the inverter getting direct power, it gets no power and the capacitors quickly drain. ... but that doesn't line up with why it works with 1 pack and not 2 packs. The contactor doesn't have to work any harder to switch double the voltage.

Kind of a dead end, and not a likely scenario regardless.

What if the contactor's coil is shorted (12v current spike) or broken (might throw an error code)? Again, no reason it would fail on half a pack and not the full pack.

Maybe it's failing gracefully because the pre-charge is taking long, and it's presuming it failed? (2x voltage means it takes longer to charge?).

... I can't think of any other way the HV is related to the 12v system in a way that might matter. To me that says it's the controller failing gracefully (or ungracefully, but, not because of power outage).


Just brainstorming things to try...

You don't need the pre-charge circuit, nor the contactor, except for safety and convenience. You could manually pre-charge the controller, and then connect the power yourself. It would rule out precharge and contactor as sources of trouble. 

To do that, just manually replicate what a pre-charge does. 

1 - Remove your contactors from the circuit completely (the 12v side too, in case there's shorts or opens there... presuming the controller won't freak out about them being gone). 

2 - Short across one contactor (don't need both, they're redundant), so HV can flow. Connect 2 wires to the gap of where the other contactor was. You will manually become a contactor that shorts or interrupts those 2 wires.

3 - You'll be a manual switch. You could hold one cable in each hand and touch the tips together, but, that's kind of unsafe. Your "switch" could just be that one cable is bolted down to a 2x4, and the other cable you hold by the insulation and touch to the bolt on the opposite side to complete the connection. In the same way that using jumper cables is you acting as a "switch" when you connect them. Only now it's hundreds of volts.

4 - Hook up some kind of resistor. Maybe just an incandescent lightbulb (or, 2 or 3 of those, in series, since the voltage is too high for just 1). Those could be screwed down to the same 2x4 if you feel like it.

5 - Connect your multimeter to the inverter's + and - so you can watch it.

6 - Make your connection through the lightbulbs, and watch the voltage on the inverter slowly rise.

7 - When the inverter voltage rises to the pack voltage, short out the lightbulbs by just connecting the two cables directly.

8 - See if it boots.

See my very professional diagram here:










If it boots, there was a problem with a contactor under load and/or the precharge circuit.

If it still doesn't boot, who knows, maybe the controller is smart enough to have expected stuff to be there and upset that it's not.

's all I got.


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## snowdog (Oct 22, 2018)

Thanks for the discussion. I can use all the help I can get.

A couple of points of clarification (or maybe my misunderstanding)

Each pack has ~400V. I am combining in parallel so still just 400V. I am not doubling voltage by combining packs. I would think the resistor would not care about the kWh, but I am a noob so may be I am off here.

I have double checked, I do not have any contactors welded shut.

the way I have my system set up is with 3 contactors. The first contactor comes on when I turn on my car. This contactor is for the DC: DC converter. So anytime I turn on the car the 12V system is getting charged from the DC: DC converter. The next contactor to come on is the negative contactor and this is where the system shuts off. It makes me think that it is not the resistor or precharge circuit because it never makes it to that stage. The 3rd contactor is for the positive battery pack(s) and is closed ~1s after the negative contactor.

Additionally as mentioned above, if I only use pack 1 it powers up fine, which also makes me think that the precharge circuit is fine. But maybe I am missing something.

Also as a point of interest, If I connect both packs but unplug the CAN wires the system boots up fine. Also makes me think the precharge circuit is fine (but then the controller cannot talk to the inverter). I also had a thought that somehow it might be related to the frame building up some capacitive voltage and causing a grounding issue, but it boots up fine without the CAN wires which makes me think it is not a grounding issue.

What ever shuts off the controller seems to be related to pack 2 and is traveling through the CAN wires

Also in discussions with EV Controls, there is no code that tells the system to shut off.

I do like your idea of removing the contactors and having more of a "manual" switch


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## Isaac97 (Jun 3, 2019)

So it's all CAN related then, not an isolation issue. Can you do some electrical checks of the second pack?
http://www.esd-electronics-usa.com/CAN-Bus-Troubleshooting-Guide.htm
This guide says you should read 2.0 to 4.0 volts on the CAN wires, and a total of 60 ohms with all devices connected (I seem to remember your testing that previously).
If you have an oscilloscope you could compare what you see on pack 1 and pack 2.

EDIT fixed bad link


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## snowdog (Oct 22, 2018)

Isaac97 said:


> So it's all CAN related then, not an isolation issue. Can you do some electrical checks of the second pack?
> http://www.esd-electronics-usa.com/CAN-Bus-Troubleshooting-Guide.htm
> This guide says you should read 2.0 to 4.0 volts on the CAN wires, and a total of 60 ohms with all devices connected (I seem to remember your testing that previously).
> If you have an oscilloscope you could compare what you see on pack 1 and pack 2.


Thanks for chiming in. When you state to do some electrical checks and compare pack 1 and pack 2, do you mean with it connected and powered up? and electrical checks do you mean measuring CAN voltages?


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## Isaac97 (Jun 3, 2019)

Yup. That troubleshooting guide should have the right procedures - just noticed the link is broken, it needs an extra L at the end.


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## MattsAwesomeStuff (Aug 10, 2017)

snowdog said:


> Each pack has ~400V. I am combining in parallel so still just 400V. I am not doubling voltage by combining packs. I would think the resistor would not care about the kWh, but I am a noob so may be I am off here.


Yeah, no reason for it to twitch out then. The capacitors would charge in exactly the same amount of time.



> I have double checked, I do not have any contactors welded shut.


You might still have funky things going on in the contactor. For example, I once had a board that cycled like this. The circuitboard was cracked, but the traces on either side of the crack were still touching. Except when they got loaded, they'd heat up, flex apart and no longer make contact. So it thermal cycled itself (and probably arc'd) and kept cycling.

Something similar could be happening inside that coil. It might be shorted on the LV side, or partially shorted. It might be all but burned through on the HV side, so that it appears to be functional but when any amount of power flows the tiny bit of conductor that remains gets red hot (or, is in fact cracked and then swells when heated).

Probably worth it to just short out the contactor regardless.

Since you have 2 and they're completely redundant, I'd just short out one with a stub of wire, try that, then switch the wire stub to the other contactor and try that. That'd tell you if the outputs are funky, but doesn't tell you anything about inputs.



> The next contactor to come on is the negative contactor and this is where the system shuts off. It makes me think that it is not the resistor or precharge circuit because it never makes it to that stage. The 3rd contactor is for the positive battery pack(s) and is closed ~1s after the negative contactor.


Hmm...

That's not what a pre-charge does. And it doesn't make sense why you'd close the negative contactor first, and then positive contactor a second later. Or why the positive contactor waits for the precharge.

I think what should happen is:

Contactor 1: Turns on with ignition.
Small precharge contactor/relay: Turns on whenever you want it to, it waits to trigger the big contactors until voltage is high enough.
Contactors 2 and 3: Come on at the same time, after precharge is complete.

What you're describing is that the negative comes on before the precharge. That makes no sense. Why would it turn on? Nothing is accomplished by it connecting.

Perhaps I've misunderstood your setup, or you've misunderstood your setup. But neither of which really explains your symptoms.



> Additionally as mentioned above, if I only use pack 1 it powers up fine, which also makes me think that the precharge circuit is fine. But maybe I am missing something.


Yep, precharge should be fine then, provided you're hooking it up correctly. A second pack in parallel shouldn't affect anything.



> Also as a point of interest, If I connect both packs but unplug the CAN wires the system boots up fine. Also makes me think the precharge circuit is fine


Almost certainly.



> What ever shuts off the controller seems to be related to pack 2 and is traveling through the CAN wires


Gremlins.

Have you tried connecting only pack #2? Just to rule out that the problem is with that pack, not with simply having 2 packs? I.E. That it works with 1 single pack, whether that single pack is Pack #1 or Pack #2.



> I do like your idea of removing the contactors and having more of a "manual" switch


It's not likely to be related, sounds like CAN gremlins.


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## snowdog (Oct 22, 2018)

MattsAwesomeStuff said:


> Hmm...
> 
> That's not what a pre-charge does. And it doesn't make sense why you'd close the negative contactor first, and then positive contactor a second later. Or why the positive contactor waits for the precharge.
> 
> ...


You are probably right. I think I made some assumptions based on sounds. The second sound I thought was the negative contactor was probably the precharge relay, and the third sound is probably both negative and positive contactors.

I will also try just pack 2 to see if it is pack 2 or if it is single vs. double pack.


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## Isaac97 (Jun 3, 2019)

Double pack might be doing it! You have original BMS IIRC, that would likely cause an address conflict. 
It's possible to offset the address using a microcontroller - basically, it reads in the data from the pack and sends it back out with a different address. Or you have both packs talk to the microcontroller and have it send out all the data on one address.


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

Isaac97 said:


> Double pack might be doing it! You have original BMS IIRC, that would likely cause an address conflict.


Original BMS? The modules are intended for a Chrysler Pacifica Hybrid, and were purchased separately, not salvaged from a Pacifica. Snowdog, you're not using Pacifica BMS, are you?


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## Isaac97 (Jun 3, 2019)

My apologies -- I was thinking of a Volt pack. 
I see Snowdog is using the Dilithium BMS - 2 of them.
What are the ID settings in the BMS units? The BMS manual shows how to set that up.


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## MattsAwesomeStuff (Aug 10, 2017)

snowdog said:


> You are probably right. I think I made some assumptions based on sounds. The second sound I thought was the negative contactor was probably the precharge relay,


Nitpick aside... contextually, if true that means it's failing on pre-charge. So it's worth looking into, rather than dismissing, is the only reason I point it out.

...

Regardless, you're not in too bad of shape. You know it works with only 1 pack, so, it's not, for example, that you fried your inverter and it's permanently shorted, causing overload. Just some minor, but hard to trace stuff with the CAN system possibly.


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## snowdog (Oct 22, 2018)

I hope to do some additional troubleshooting tomorrow. Thanks for all the comments guys. I will keep posting for additional insights.


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## earz (Sep 3, 2020)

snowdog said:


> Thanks for the discussion. I can use all the help I can get.
> 
> A couple of points of clarification (or maybe my misunderstanding)
> 
> ...


Hi, just caught that you "combined packs in parallel" what kind of BMS let you pull that off? TIA Randall


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## snowdog (Oct 22, 2018)

earz said:


> Hi, just caught that you "combined packs in parallel" what kind of BMS let you pull that off? TIA Randall


I have two BMS systems. One for each pack. Seems to work ok.


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## snowdog (Oct 22, 2018)

I am using dilithium design BMS


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## snowdog (Oct 22, 2018)

Got things to a point where I could drive again.

Still figuring out pack 2


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## MattsAwesomeStuff (Aug 10, 2017)

Who'd you buy your batteries from again?

EVWest?

... 30% chance their pack is shit. 70% you've goofed somewhere.


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## snowdog (Oct 22, 2018)

Yes, EV West. I have checked the batteries multiple times. I connected the BMS to a computer and all of the cells seem just like you would want them. I think it may be an isolation problem. I was anxious to get it out driving again. Now I am balancing the two packs before I start troubleshooting again.


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## Isaac97 (Jun 3, 2019)

Can you post the config screens from the BMS systems?
Send 'show config' in Putty.
If both BMSs are set to the same address, there may be conflicts.


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## snowdog (Oct 22, 2018)

Isaac97 said:


> Can you post the config screens from the BMS systems?
> Send 'show config' in Putty.
> If both BMSs are set to the same address, there may be conflicts.


As stated before, I do not have these hooked up to a CAN system. Or maybe I am misunderstanding your comment.


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## Isaac97 (Jun 3, 2019)

From what I know of the Dilithium BMS, it has head units and satellite units.
Each head unit can monitor 24 cells, and each satellite unit can do the same.
So for each of your 2 packs, you have 1 head unit and 3 satellite units -- these are all connected via IsoSPI.

As I understand what's going on, you can connect one or both head units to the Tesla controller's CAN bus.
And the errors are showing up when pack 1 and pack 2 are connected simultaneously - via CAN. Pack 1 alone does not cause issues, you have not yet tested pack 2 alone.

Is that accurate?


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## snowdog (Oct 22, 2018)

Close. I do not have my BMS connected to the controller. Right now the only CAN connection I have is from the inverter to the controller.


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## Isaac97 (Jun 3, 2019)

Right.
So looking at the last page, it seems like pack 2 being connected to the controller kills it/stops precharge? And pack 1 alone works.


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## snowdog (Oct 22, 2018)

Yes.


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## Isaac97 (Jun 3, 2019)

Okay. CAN bus conflict seems like the most likely issue. Does pack 2 alone work?


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## angusmf (Jul 20, 2020)

snowdog said:


> Got things to a point where I could drive again.
> 
> Still figuring out pack 2


Awesome you're back on track! I had just subbed your channel a day or so before that vid came out!


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## snowdog (Oct 22, 2018)

Hey all, tried only pack 2 and it works as well. Seems like it is just when they are together in parallel that the system doesn't like it.


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## Isaac97 (Jun 3, 2019)

Great. Do you have the 'canterm' option enabled on either or both of them?
Also, have you tried setting the BMS IDs? The 'set id 2' command should change the ID of one of the BMS and might prevent CAN conflicts.


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## MattsAwesomeStuff (Aug 10, 2017)

Also, have you ever had both packs connected at the same time? Did this used to work and stop working, or have you never tested both packs together? Just to help the troubleshooting process.


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## wjbitner (Apr 5, 2010)

snowdog said:


> Hey all, tried only pack 2 and it works as well. Seems like it is just when they are together in parallel that the system doesn't like it.


When you parallel the packs, where does this happen physically, before or after the contactors? I'm assuming you aren't doing anything with the BMS connections, just the two wires for each pack.


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## snowdog (Oct 22, 2018)

Isaac97 said:


> Great. Do you have the 'canterm' option enabled on either or both of them?
> Also, have you tried setting the BMS IDs? The 'set id 2' command should change the ID of one of the BMS and might prevent CAN conflicts.


Thanks for the thought, as stated before, I do not have them hooked up to CAN.


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## snowdog (Oct 22, 2018)

MattsAwesomeStuff said:


> Also, have you ever had both packs connected at the same time? Did this used to work and stop working, or have you never tested both packs together? Just to help the troubleshooting process.



I have had the packs hooked up in parallel at the same time but it always has caused the boot cycle. The only time I have been able to drive is with one pack


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## snowdog (Oct 22, 2018)

wjbitner said:


> When you parallel the packs, where does this happen physically, before or after the contactors? I'm assuming you aren't doing anything with the BMS connections, just the two wires for each pack.


I have each pack coming through a fuse and then joining together before the negative contactor.


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## wjbitner (Apr 5, 2010)

snowdog said:


> I have each pack coming through a fuse and then joining together before the negative contactor.


Is the negative side of the battery also chassis ground or or not?
Assuming the same things happens at the positive contactor also.
How does each pack individually measure from chassis ground (assuming they are isolated).
How is the DC/DC converter wired into the packs? Before or after the contactors? 
Scratching my head as to why putting 2 packs in parallel would have these unusual effects!


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## snowdog (Oct 22, 2018)

wjbitner said:


> Is the negative side of the battery also chassis ground or or not?
> Assuming the same things happens at the positive contactor also.
> How does each pack individually measure from chassis ground (assuming they are isolated).
> How is the DC/DC converter wired into the packs? Before or after the contactors?
> Scratching my head as to why putting 2 packs in parallel would have these unusual effects!


Negative for 12V is chassis.
Positive for HV does not have fuses, but yes joined together prior to contactor.
Each pack measures identical voltage 396V. When measured to chassis they start off with a voltage but quickly fall close to zero within a second (same for both)
DC: DC converter has its own contactor. It comes on prior to the precharge circuit.


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## snowdog (Oct 22, 2018)

OK, maybe I spoke too soon. Now pack 2 only is doing the boot cycle. I turned the system on and it did the boot cycle once but then booted up properly. I turned it off and on and it did the boot cycle again.


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## Frank (Dec 6, 2008)

Tell more about the tc1 control head (or whatever it is called). Is the problem still that one of the contactors is opening up? It might help to restate the issue for anyone (cough, me, cough) who has lost track of the exact problem. 

Sent from my SM-T380 using Tapatalk


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## wjbitner (Apr 5, 2010)

snowdog said:


> OK, maybe I spoke too soon. Now pack 2 only is doing the boot cycle. I turned the system on and it did the boot cycle once but then booted up properly. I turned it off and on and it did the boot cycle again.


Ok, assuming you went back to pack 1 only to verify system is still good. If not, I think you should get a trace of the CAN messages and have a chat with the supplier of the control head to understand what could cause this. Is it actually rebooting? If so, I'd try temporarily removing the DC-DC converter. The DC-DC can be turned on later when you know the motor is good and you're actually going for a drive.. Certainly a vexing problem.


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## snowdog (Oct 22, 2018)

Frank said:


> Tell more about the tc1 control head (or whatever it is called). Is the problem still that one of the contactors is opening up? It might help to restate the issue for anyone (cough, me, cough) who has lost track of the exact problem.
> 
> Sent from my SM-T380 using Tapatalk


Basic problem is that when CAN between the controller and the motor is hooked up along with pack 2, it struggles with a boot cycle problem as I term it. The controller also controls the precharge circuit and when ever it gets to opening the negative contactor the controller will shut down and then attempts to boot again. The controller does not have any intentional logic that does this. It only exhibits this behavior when hooked up to pack 2 and only when connected to CAN to the inverter. It behaves fine for pack 1. Both packs consist of 6 LG Chem battery modules. When I parallel the packs it has a problem. When I run just pack 1 it is fine.


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## snowdog (Oct 22, 2018)

wjbitner said:


> Ok, assuming you went back to pack 1 only to verify system is still good. If not, I think you should get a trace of the CAN messages and have a chat with the supplier of the control head to understand what could cause this. Is it actually rebooting? If so, I'd try temporarily removing the DC-DC converter. The DC-DC can be turned on later when you know the motor is good and you're actually going for a drive.. Certainly a vexing problem.


It is easy enough to try, but with the system working for pack 1 it doesn't seem likely that it has something to do with the DC-DC converter.


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## Frank (Dec 6, 2008)

I was wondering if tc1 (control head?) could be defective. Unlikely though if packs 1 and 2 are in parallel. 

Sent from my SM-T380 using Tapatalk


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## wjbitner (Apr 5, 2010)

snowdog said:


> It is easy enough to try, but with the system working for pack 1 it doesn't seem likely that it has something to do with the DC-DC converter.


It sounds like something is inducing a large spike in the CAN line. That's why getting a CAN trace would help. (and if would eliminate a CAN as the problem if the trace shows up fine). That something is probably the pre-charge circuit. Maybe the CAN lines run closer to pack 2 than to pack 1. Did I understand it ran ok on Pack 2 for a little while, but then started having problems?


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## snowdog (Oct 22, 2018)

wjbitner said:


> It sounds like something is inducing a large spike in the CAN line. That's why getting a CAN trace would help. (and if would eliminate a CAN as the problem if the trace shows up fine). That something is probably the pre-charge circuit. Maybe the CAN lines run closer to pack 2 than to pack 1. Did I understand it ran ok on Pack 2 for a little while, but then started having problems?


I never ran the car on pack 2 but it did boot up once or twice without issue. But now it does the boot cycle.


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## snowdog (Oct 22, 2018)

I am wondering about getting an extra set of normally closed contactors for pack 2. Have them go open for the boot up and then rejoin once it is going. They would always be closed (connected) to pack 1 except the 2 seconds during boot up. thoughts?


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## wjbitner (Apr 5, 2010)

snowdog said:


> I never ran the car on pack 2 but it did boot up once or twice without issue. But now it does the boot cycle.


So I'm guessing here, but it sounds like whatever affects the system, is very close to tolerance. Pack 1 is within tolerance, and Pack2 is very close, and both packs together are over tolerance. Has your control box support given you any clue as too why it reboots, any logs you can look at? It should be one of two issues. The box looses power, or some type of software condition, probably on the CAN bus, but could have to do with pre-charge. (charging too fast, or not fast enough). For the box loosing power, I'd put a small 12 volt automotive light across the power and watch while it boots. See if the light flickers, when it's not supposed to..


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## MattsAwesomeStuff (Aug 10, 2017)

snowdog said:


> I am wondering about getting an extra set of normally closed contactors for pack 2. Have them go open for the boot up and then rejoin once it is going. They would always be closed (connected) to pack 1 except the 2 seconds during boot up. thoughts?


Temporarily, diagnose the problem. Then work on a permanent solution.

Instead of contactors, I'd just grab some spare copper pipe and make yourself some knife switches that you can actuate manually (frankenstein switches).










Bit of 2x4, some bolts and some copper pipe and you can bang it out in an hour. Plus, for the rest of your life you'll have a device that lets you exclaim with exhuberance: "IT'S ALIVE!"






...

Are the two packs the same voltage? Like, exactly the same? Might that be causing the issue? Hmm... no, because pack #2 does it all by itself.

Definitely should figure out why pack #2 doesn't work on its own.

How easy would it be to swap the BMS from pack #1 to pack #2? Or the connection from the inverter to the BMS? I.E. Plug Pack #2 in to the same ribbon that Pack #1 was going to.

Just going down the chain of troubleshooting. Figure out everything it's not so you know where to spend your efforts.


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## snowdog (Oct 22, 2018)

Did a full systems check including 0-60


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## metalwork72 (Jul 22, 2019)

Do you have a HV and related systems schematic for how you believe it’s wired, ideally with every connection, reference ground, CAN resistor, etc, labeled/numbered? Then maybe walk through the actual wiring and confirm? It could help make a table of Pack 1, 2 and together results. Hopefully not resulting in analysis paralysis.


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## snowdog (Oct 22, 2018)

metalwork72 said:


> Do you have a HV and related systems schematic for how you believe it’s wired, ideally with every connection, reference ground, CAN resistor, etc, labeled/numbered? Then maybe walk through the actual wiring and confirm? It could help make a table of Pack 1, 2 and together results. Hopefully not resulting in analysis paralysis.


Not sure if this is what you mean but I attached the wiring schematics for the T1-C. I have everything wired and labeled to match their schematics. As you can imagine, I have been pouring over this several times and confirmed and reconfirmed that everything is wired correctly.


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## 4G63T (Jan 9, 2019)

If I remember correctly you are also experiencing brief “voltage leak” phenomena in which your voltmeter test was reading voltage briefly on the chassis ground?

I can’t recall but did you at least isolate the source to be from pack 2 ? Maybe both are related ? Essentially what I’m getting to is there might be an arch of some kind from pack 2 that is causing this leak and or boot issue?


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## snowdog (Oct 22, 2018)

4G63T said:


> If I remember correctly you are also experiencing brief “voltage leak” phenomena in which your voltmeter test was reading voltage briefly on the chassis ground?
> 
> I can’t recall but did you at least isolate the source to be from pack 2 ? Maybe both are related ? Essentially what I’m getting to is there might be an arch of some kind from pack 2 that is causing this leak and or boot issue?


I thought I might be having a HV voltage leak but later found that it was more of a capacitance effect. I could read a voltage between the frame and the battery pack but would quickly fall to 0 within a few seconds. This still may be somewhat contributing.


----------



## wjbitner (Apr 5, 2010)

snowdog said:


> I thought I might be having a HV voltage leak but later found that it was more of a capacitance effect. I could read a voltage between the frame and the battery pack but would quickly fall to 0 within a few seconds. This still may be somewhat contributing.


The primary question here is that capacitance effect different from pack1 to pack2. We're looking for anything that could tell us why one work, but the other is marginal and both together are a 'no-go'. After reading the manual you posted, it seems that the screen controller should keep some kind of log or have useful debugging information.


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## 4G63T (Jan 9, 2019)

snowdog said:


> I thought I might be having a HV voltage leak but later found that it was more of a capacitance effect. I could read a voltage between the frame and the battery pack but would quickly fall to 0 within a few seconds. This still may be somewhat contributing.


Would you be able to remove pack 2 from the car and try to see if it works that way ?

If the issue persists. Remove battery lid to make sure any conductive surfaces have sufficient clearance and try again.

Next remove cooling plate and try again .

Finally remove batteries from box completely and connect batteries in series again to try again.


----------



## snowdog (Oct 22, 2018)

wjbitner said:


> The primary question here is that capacitance effect different from pack1 to pack2. We're looking for anything that could tell us why one work, but the other is marginal and both together are a 'no-go'. After reading the manual you posted, it seems that the screen controller should keep some kind of log or have useful debugging information.


The controller does keep a log as long as you don't shut it off, which the boot cycle does. LOL!!


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## wjbitner (Apr 5, 2010)

snowdog said:


> The controller does keep a log as long as you don't shut it off, which the boot cycle does. LOL!!


It seems like there should be no way it shuts off unless the power or the key-enable is being interrupted (or possibly it can be sent a message to power down). I'd put a small light across the power and the key-enable an watch those carefully.


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## snowdog (Oct 22, 2018)

Finished up a lot of the electrical


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## snowdog (Oct 22, 2018)

Still having controller issues, but switching gears to some body work.


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## snowdog (Oct 22, 2018)

On to installing the lambo doors


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## wjbitner (Apr 5, 2010)

snowdog said:


> On to installing the lambo doors


If you need help, PM me, I know the basic stuff about electricity..


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## snowdog (Oct 22, 2018)

wjbitner said:


> If you need help, PM me, I know the basic stuff about electricity..


Thanks for the offer. I will send you an email.


----------



## 18650 (May 20, 2016)

Regarding your controler issue. Hows the canbus ? you have proper termination in both ends of network or maybe a broken termination?


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## snowdog (Oct 22, 2018)

18650 said:


> Regarding your controler issue. Hows the canbus ? you have proper termination in both ends of network or maybe a broken termination?


Thanks for the thought! I have checked in the past, but it is worth re-checking


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## snowdog (Oct 22, 2018)

Making fenders from tape


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## MattsAwesomeStuff (Aug 10, 2017)

"I tried the Dremel too, and it just kinda smokes and burns through" ... I hate you. You're building a car. Put the Dremel in the wife and kid's craft room and don't take it out again until the build is done. You used a micro abrasive wheel to "cut" wood, of course it smoked and burned.

Do you not own a jigsaw? All the tools you've bought, you don't have a cheap jigsaw? They're like $20.

... the rear of the tire supposed to be exposed beyond the fender so much, or was that a function of you increasingly tightening it on the tape?

In my opinion,the rear of the fender looks best (maybe aside from how much it retreats from the wheel edge), the front pretty good, and the top not great. I'm not sure what should've been done instead, but the lines just don't blend great, that part of it looks like an add-on. You go from almost a convex look to a definitely concave and then back more convex.

You can use cardboard ribs to fine-tune the skeleton underneath before you apply fiberglass again. 

Good job on not getting the entire workshop covered in fiberglass and epoxy. Seems that's what everyone has happen to them.

If you don't want your tools to stick to fiberglass, use wax. You can rub crayons on them or rub them against candles, or car wax, or all kinds of stuff. Same way to not get molds stuck to each other or other surfaces.

Driver's side matching panel is going to be tricky to replicate but, meh, it's a home made project, it's okay if it's not perfect.


----------



## snowdog (Oct 22, 2018)

Wha..ha..ha..ha
I have you right where I want you.
Just for you, next week tool of the week will be the dremel tool


----------



## MattsAwesomeStuff (Aug 10, 2017)

snowdog said:


> Just for you, next week tool of the week will be the dremel tool


A fitting farewell before it leaves the garage permanently? I'm okay with this, it's a big step for you.


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## snowdog (Oct 22, 2018)

Driver side fender


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## snowdog (Oct 22, 2018)

Starting on some headlights


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## MattsAwesomeStuff (Aug 10, 2017)

An episode that featured appropriate use of the Dremel tool in small, fine detail areas! And proper use of angle grinders and the oscillating tool instead of the Dremel!

_stamps_

Approved!


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## snowdog (Oct 22, 2018)

Starting work on the front lip and taillights


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## snowdog (Oct 22, 2018)

Modifying the rear fender and making my first fiberglass mold


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## MattsAwesomeStuff (Aug 10, 2017)

I really like the contours you added to the rear lights shrouds. It looks thematically consistent and I consider it an upgrade to the original look. Hopefully the fiberglass turns out good too.


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## snowdog (Oct 22, 2018)

Thanks! Learning as I go


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## snowdog (Oct 22, 2018)

Matching fiberglass molds and doing some electrical testing. I really could use some additional insights on the electrical testing. Check it out and let me know what you think


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## MattsAwesomeStuff (Aug 10, 2017)

This week's lesson: domed surfaces do not a table make.


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## snowdog (Oct 22, 2018)

First part from fiberglass mold


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## MattsAwesomeStuff (Aug 10, 2017)

Tools of the week is us? U wot m8?

I'd give fiberglass advice on how to mount it to the vehicle, but it's no better than just googling how to do it. Heck the recommended videos after your last video were half about how to do your own fiberglass work.

The back sculpting you did is looking really good.


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## snowdog (Oct 22, 2018)

Stripping down to solve those pesky electrical problem


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## snowdog (Oct 22, 2018)

I joined my first fiberglass piece. Still need comments on isolation issues


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## 4G63T (Jan 9, 2019)

I’m not sure if i missed it in the video, but did you try checking for isolation/continuity/voltage leakage etc.. between the terminals and the aluminum heat transfer portion on each battery module ?


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## snowdog (Oct 22, 2018)

Good thought! I have tried with one battery module but not each battery module. Thanks!


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## snowdog (Oct 22, 2018)

Homemade DIY Fender is Mounted


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## snowdog (Oct 22, 2018)

Homemade DIY Widebody Complete!


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## MattsAwesomeStuff (Aug 10, 2017)

I think you've gone great for a firsttimer doing fiberglass, changing methods every piece. Looks great.

Very little of the original kit left in there


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## snowdog (Oct 22, 2018)

MattsAwesomeStuff said:


> I think you've gone great for a firsttimer doing fiberglass, changing methods every piece. Looks great.
> 
> Very little of the original kit left in there


So tired of the dust, LOL 😂


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## snowdog (Oct 22, 2018)

Controller is Back!


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## snowdog (Oct 22, 2018)

Installing 5 point racing harness


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## MattsAwesomeStuff (Aug 10, 2017)

I appreciate the triple-screen timelapse. Boring-ish work that's still interesting to see being done, but I don't need to sit and stare at only one place.


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## snowdog (Oct 22, 2018)

Thanks for the comment!


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## dedlast (Aug 17, 2013)

MattsAwesomeStuff said:


> I appreciate the triple-screen timelapse. Boring-ish work that's still interesting to see being done, but I don't need to sit and stare at only one place.


Agreed. That was a very effective use of our/your time. It's also great to see your progress as I'm still dawdling along on my build.

B


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## snowdog (Oct 22, 2018)

Charging Circuit Working!


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## dedlast (Aug 17, 2013)

I had to come back and look at your Chargepoint. I got a really good deal on the same brand through my utility, but I picked the four wire, NEMA 14-50 version instead of the three wire, NEMA 6-50 version. I have the dual gang 50 amp breakers to back it up, fortunately. I'm nowhere near really needing it but I didn't think I could pass up the offer.

B


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## snowdog (Oct 22, 2018)

dedlast said:


> I had to come back and look at your Chargepoint. I got a really good deal on the same brand through my utility, but I picked the four wire, NEMA 14-50 version instead of the three wire, NEMA 6-50 version. I have the dual gang 50 amp breakers to back it up, fortunately. I'm nowhere near really needing it but I didn't think I could pass up the offer.
> 
> B


Me too, for my application this is way more than I need.


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## snowdog (Oct 22, 2018)

On the Road Again!


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## snowdog (Oct 22, 2018)

Electric Supercar Build Review – Everything to catch you up, build in 15 Minutes


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## galderdi (Nov 17, 2015)

Awesome work. If only it were that easy here. Our restrictions on registering cars make it sooooo difficult. But that is a credit to you so far. Can't wait to see it finished.


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## snowdog (Oct 22, 2018)

galderdi said:


> Awesome work. If only it were that easy here. Our restrictions on registering cars make it sooooo difficult. But that is a credit to you so far. Can't wait to see it finished.


Thanks Friend!


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## snowdog (Oct 22, 2018)

Time for some panel fitting


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## galderdi (Nov 17, 2015)

Looking great. Even color coded to the surroundings


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## snowdog (Oct 22, 2018)

galderdi said:


> Looking great. Even color coded to the surroundings


Thanks Friend!


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## snowdog (Oct 22, 2018)

Meeting with JerryRigEverything


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## jayguy (Mar 1, 2021)

Love the build! I've been binging your videos all weekend!

I was a fan of the K1 Attack in 2000 but didn't get one then, then heard the original company was stopping production and I stopped following them. I was so excited to see someone doing something fun with one!

The idea of using a Tesla rear drive is great, too. You now have me thinking of doing this with a Factory Five 33HR or 35 Truck like Megatron451 is doing on here.

I know its already done, but you could have used kleco's when attaching the flares to the main body, or self tapping screws, to hold it in place while bonding and fiber-glassing them on, and filled in the holes once its attached.

As for the wheel well lip, the foam is a good idea too, I've seen a guy in the UK use foam, rope, etc. and fiberglass as a stiffener on several flat areas of fiberglass, like his trunk lid, etc.

Fantastic build, can't wait to see it all done!

Jay


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## snowdog (Oct 22, 2018)

Thanks for the comment Jay!


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## RustedB&B (Feb 15, 2021)

Very cool build - it's always cool seeing people building something out of nothing!


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## snowdog (Oct 22, 2018)

RustedB&B said:


> Very cool build - it's always cool seeing people building something out of nothing!


LOL! One way to beat COVID boredom!


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## snowdog (Oct 22, 2018)

Working on windshield wipers


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## snowdog (Oct 22, 2018)

Working on the rear diffuser. Also starting the cost challenge.


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## snowdog (Oct 22, 2018)

Cost of my build, it's paper bag embarrassing.


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## MattsAwesomeStuff (Aug 10, 2017)

Hillarious with the paperbagging different emotions, got a laugh out of me a few times.

I don't think your cost is embarrassing. You're building a performance-minded vehicle, one that's unique.

I went with a wild guess rather than shopping it out because it was more fun. My hope was that you got it done for $50k. My suspicion was that you were pretty close to $75k. There was lots of competition and guesses around my price, so I went higher to $100k because everything costs more than you think it does.

I figured you weren't much of a negotiator and got hosed quite a bit more on purchases than you did. Glad to see you spent much closer to what I hoped you'd spent.

I appreciate how meticulously you accounted for spending, without the usual hand-waving.

If it's not too much to pry, I wonder how well you met your expectations revenue-wise. You've been documenting this from the start with a fair amount of production value right out of the gate, good lighting, good camerawork, a branded intro clip, putting a fair amount of effort into your videos (despite that they get in the way of your build), who knows how much time editing and narrating them (as much or more time than you spent on the car itself?), and you've been obsessively strict in posting them once a week at the same time according to Youtube's optimizing suggestions. Makes me think you'd hoped to draw a significant audience to help fund the build itself? Is the amount of following you've built surprise you, about what you expected, or, less than you'd hoped?


----------



## snowdog (Oct 22, 2018)

MattsAwesomeStuff said:


> Hillarious with the paperbagging different emotions, got a laugh out of me a few times.
> 
> I don't think your cost is embarrassing. You're building a performance-minded vehicle, one that's unique.
> 
> ...


LOL!! You are right, I am not a good negotiator.

As far as YouTube goes...I never anticipated making any money. If someone told me before I started that I would have 20k+ subscribers and be able to make any money, I probably would have laughed at them. For me, I really have found that I enjoy sharing my experience. Kind of a hobby within a hobby. I have also found (both good and bad) that it helps me keep motivated to keep progress going. I am probably further along than I would be otherwise.


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## MattsAwesomeStuff (Aug 10, 2017)

snowdog said:


> I have also found (both good and bad) that it helps me keep motivated to keep progress going. I am probably further along than I would be otherwise.


I feel that.

One of the things I do when I'm roadblocked and unmotivated or don't feel like working further, is sitting down and documenting more about what I've done. It helps to rubber duck the problem a bit, but also just to rebuild momentum in your headspace, helps you to make decisions even only because you have to write text or speak a script rather than flail around in circles ethereally.


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## Rusted B&B (Nov 6, 2020)

snowdog said:


> LOL!! You are right, I am not a good negotiator.
> 
> As far as YouTube goes...I never anticipated making any money. If someone told me before I started that I would have 20k+ subscribers and be able to make any money, I probably would have laughed at them. For me, I really have found that I enjoy sharing my experience. Kind of a hobby within a hobby. I have also found (both good and bad) that it helps me keep motivated to keep progress going. I am probably further along than I would be otherwise.


I'm the same way with my build I never counted on making money on my channel as it just help me keep motivated to keep going and It's fun to edit my video's. I'm no where near your channel but it's fun all the same. I put things in place to maybe someone day make it but I'm mainly just posting my vid's because it's fun


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## snowdog (Oct 22, 2018)

Not Moving and Moving


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## snowdog (Oct 22, 2018)

Securing Panels


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## snowdog (Oct 22, 2018)

Working on rear panels


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## snowdog (Oct 22, 2018)

New Controller


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## KenB (Apr 6, 2009)

Congrats! I’m enjoying your videos. Must be great to have the car working again. Looks like you picked a winner with EV Controls.

BTW, you may have mentioned it but I missed it — didn’t your lift make the move with you?

Ken


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## snowdog (Oct 22, 2018)

KenB said:


> Congrats! I’m enjoying your videos. Must be great to have the car working again. Looks like you picked a winner with EV Controls.
> 
> BTW, you may have mentioned it but I missed it — didn’t your lift make the move with you?
> 
> Ken


The lift is coming. I miss it. It is out for repairs. Hope to have it back soon


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## snowdog (Oct 22, 2018)

Slicing and splicing panels


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## snowdog (Oct 22, 2018)

Vinyl Wrapping and Taking New Neighbors for Rides


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## MattsAwesomeStuff (Aug 10, 2017)

From my own build on a 60s car with an all metal one-piece skin I know that bodywork that involves welding sucks.

But I see that from your build, a modern car kit with all fiberglass panels, that bodywork that doesn't involve welding... yeah also sucks.

So much time and effort for bodywork.


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## snowdog (Oct 22, 2018)

MattsAwesomeStuff said:


> From my own build on a 60s car with an all metal one-piece skin I know that bodywork that involves welding sucks.
> 
> But I see that from your build, a modern car kit with all fiberglass panels, that bodywork that doesn't involve welding... yeah also sucks.
> 
> So much time and effort for bodywork.


Ahh...yes. So much time getting it to look "semi-good". Not always the most entertaining.


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## snowdog (Oct 22, 2018)

Rear Wing Mounts


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

The above post is spam, stealing my text from an earlier post and inserting spam links. *Do not follow the links*. The account is a spammer.


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## snowdog (Oct 22, 2018)

brian_ said:


> The above post is spam, stealing my text from an earlier post and inserting spam links. *Do not follow the links*. The account is a spammer.


Thanks Brian!


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## snowdog (Oct 22, 2018)

I lit myself on fire! Working on the trunk hinge.


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## MattsAwesomeStuff (Aug 10, 2017)

"Let me know in the comments if you guys have had some close calls"

I haven't worked on my car in 6 months. It's in the garage, along the wall is a fold-out table, or 3' shelving, and not much space in between. A business nearby is getting torn down couple weeks ago, they had an industrial style decor, their cashdesk was half made of 1/8" steel plate. So I offered them scrap value to the demo team to take it, they said naw, go ahead, all yours. It has all of 2 bends in it, 3'x6' for one piece and 1x8' for the other. Probably $800 worth of steel.

An amazing coincidence, because a friend wanted something cut out of a piece of plate that size, about dinner plate sized. No problem, I take it to the garage, but it's already like, 11pm, so I don't want to be doing this outside. I unload the steel between the car and the table, but there's maybe, I dunno, 6 or 8" to spare. Enough now to shimmy between the steel cashdesk and the car, up on my toes the desk comes up to maybe mid-thigh, but otherwise not a lot of room to plant myself as my legs get thicker from there on up obviously.

I want to be space efficient, so I'm trace the pattern at the corner of the sheet. So far so good.

I'd bought a pair of used grinders for $10 total that week from a sketchy part of town. One was broken (probably fixable), the other ran fine and already had a zip disc in it. Super. Might as well fire that one up.

Eye protection, gloves, steel toes, grinder even has the guard on it, good to go.

Among the rules I'm about to break here, beyond not using powertools while up on your tippy toes or too close to your body or anyone knowing where you're working, is "Never trust someone else's consumables". I have no idea how this cutting disc has been used or abused by the previous owner or "owner". Looked fine.

Cut starts okay, but then I feel a shake and first thing I notice is an angry "BRRRRGGGGGG" sound of a locked up motor. The FIRST sign I had that something was wrong, was my brain noticing the sound of a locked up motor. My other senses caught up afterwards.

The motor was making that sound because the trigger was locked on, and, because it wasn't spinning anymore. It wasn't spinning anymore, because it was full of denim, wound-up and bound-up tight. The denim was my jeans. My jeans were ripped from mid-thigh - right where you lit yours on fire - to tight into my groin. My hand is pinned down there too.

I can't access the trigger lock, which is pushed hard into my belt or below it. I try to yank the grinder loose and wisely decide no, it's currently not spinning, let's keep it that way. I flail around with my spare hand a few times until I grab the dangling power cord and rip it out of the wall.

Post-mortem:

Soon as the grinder disc hit the right edge of the sheet metal, the crack it had in it that I failed to notice, caught the edge and launched the grinder. Being on my toes, cutting close to my body, sandwiched between car and desk, cutting with my arms low at thigh-height, I had no bracing against an inward force at the end of my reach. Arms were just a big pendulum. Don't know that it would've mattered, but, the fraction of a second it shoved itself into my thigh, and then the power and edge speed of that split zip disc was however fast it climbed up my thigh like a drag race. 10,000 rpm, 4.5" disc.... 217km/h or 130mph or about 200 feet per second. Which explains why it happened faster than I could notice or react. It only had about a foot to travel between my thigh where it impacted and my groin where it stopped, so, 5 thousandths of a second. An order of magnitude at least below human reaction time.

Untangled the fabric from the grinder, and inspected myself through my now-convertible jeans. Not a scratch. The grinder climbed up my right thigh to my groin, I was fortuitously dressed to the left. Had I not been, wouldn't've been able to tell this story to my grandkids some day, as I don't currently have any (known) offspring yet.

...

I used to volunteer at this place, and the safety instructor lit his hoodie on fire while grinding once. I noticed before he did, and he was at the other end of the shop, leaning forward over what he was grinding. Took him a few seconds to notice, set down the grinder, and pat the fire out with his gloves. He wore it as an item of shame around the shop thereafter, as a reminder.


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## snowdog (Oct 22, 2018)

Holy Cow! What a story!


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## MattsAwesomeStuff (Aug 10, 2017)

snowdog said:


> Holy Cow! What a story!


Learn from the mistakes of others, you won't live long enough to make them all yourself.


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## snowdog (Oct 22, 2018)

So many mistakes!


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## MattsAwesomeStuff (Aug 10, 2017)

What's interesting to me, is that different people have different blindspots in how they think things through. Lots of times in this build you approached a problem that I thought "Well why does that even matter? Just do X.", and then it's only after you're done I realize why it had to be done that way, and I would've made something that wouldn't have worked and wouldn't have realized it until I was done. This is one of the first times that the reverse happened, I looked at your hinge design and said "Well obviously that won't work... why would he think it will?" And it went exactly like I thought it would. Everyone's brain works a little differently.

Most simply, the hinge fulcrum has to be behind the farthest-back part of the trunk, or, like a teeter-totter, when one side goes up, the other side is going to dip down.

The shocks don't add any stability because they're on ball joints, so they're just loose and floppy. They're not constrained to open an equal amount either, so, nothing stops the trunk from twisting. And since they're not square, you can't add diagonal bracing to them to stiffen the motion (they're on ball joints because they need to be on ball joints, the angles change as it moves).

On my car, I'm half-considering having gull-wing doors, but the roof is arched, so it's higher in the middle than where you would put the hinges on the sides. Same problem, the middle will pinch. Can't avoid it without gigantic arched hinges and deep hinge points far inside of where the roof panel actually ends. On doors (versus for you, a trunk), you can't have a big arch swooping into the driver/passenger headspace, and you might not even have room to push them deeper, because you're already right at the spine (any further than the hinges would have to mount to the opposite door).

Solution perhaps from the aviation industry, to have deeper-sunk cutouts for the hinges:


















That way, the hinging fulcrum is back far enough that the arch of roof doesn't come into play. You could try making that work

Another option for you, to go wide, might just be some different-shaped hinge beams. Different sizes/lengths of the arch might help it clear differently. Then you wouldn't have to have them pidgeon-toed in the middle only.


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

This is too late to be useful, but I would have made the mounting brackets on the lid for the struts larger, to spread the load out. I've had this sort of mount tear out of storage compartment doors on my motorhome, and had to add plates, because the force on those struts is surprisingly high.



MattsAwesomeStuff said:


> Most simply, the hinge fulcrum has to be behind the farthest-back part of the trunk, or, like a teeter-totter, when one side goes up, the other side is going to dip down.


By "behind", you mean "beyond the opening", which is forward in this case (because it's a front-hinged lid), but yes, that's basically how it works.

The solution for a simple hinge is already in place in this design, with the curved hinge arms, but the pivot point just needed to be better placed... as has already been realized and executed.

The other common solution, to avoid having the lid move too far toward stuff above the hinge area, is to use a four-bar linkage hinge. That's commonly found in the engine hoods of older North American cars. With this sort of design, the hinges could probably be moved further apart for stability... perhaps even at the corners where they should be.



MattsAwesomeStuff said:


> Solution perhaps from the aviation industry, to have deeper-sunk cutouts for the hinges...


But you don't have to do that. The aircraft cabin can't have the door hinges protruding substantially into the interior (as the curved hinge arms need to be to clear the edge of the opening), but the car's trunk can. It might even fit them at the corners in this case.


What's crazy about this whole thing is that the lid is apparently intended for access to the engine and to the trunk. With no engine and no useful storage in the forward part, there's no need to a hinged panel to access the front of this compartment; therefore, it could have been built with a simple and effective trunk lid for the rear part, and a removable panel for the front held by screws or quarter-turn fasteners. Sorry if that was already considered in an earlier video which I haven't watched.


As for the *garage door clearance*... you know the solution. If you change opener hardware, this would be a good time to switch to a side-mounted (wall-mounted) opener.


----------



## MattsAwesomeStuff (Aug 10, 2017)

brian_ said:


> By "behind", you mean "beyond the opening", which is forward in this case (because it's a front-hinged lid), but yes, that's basically how it works.


Err, yes. "Back of the trunk" was my reference, as in if you were reaching for the back of the truck most would understand it to be the farthest to reach, and "farther back" being, farther back than the back... which yes is towards the front of the car.



> the pivot point just needed to be better placed... as has already been realized and executed.


Hmm, no what I saw was that he put both hinges in the centerline of the car so now it's all weeble-wobbley. It's minimally functional, but crappy, and will probably buck and shake at speed even when closed.



> But you don't have to do that. The aircraft cabin can't have the door hinges protruding substantially into the interior (as the curved hinge arms need to be to clear the edge of the opening), but the car's trunk can. It might even fit them at the corners in this case.


Hinges protruding down into the car solves the problem of the edge of the trunk having some gap when opened, but does not solve the problem of the pivot point being located too close to the lid and any panel past that tilting down, not up. The rotation point determines where the lid pivots around. I'm not sure there was room to put them out wider, as that's kind of where the seat-scoop things are.


----------



## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

MattsAwesomeStuff said:


> Hmm, no what I saw was that he put both hinges in the centerline of the car so now it's all weeble-wobbley. It's minimally functional, but crappy, and will probably buck and shake at speed even when closed.


All I meant was that the hinge point was moved forward, as it needed to be. I agree that the narrow hinge configuration introduces another problem.



MattsAwesomeStuff said:


> Hinges protruding down into the car solves the problem of the edge of the trunk having some gap when opened, but does not solve the problem of the pivot point being located too close to the lid and any panel past that tilting down, not up. The rotation point determines where the lid pivots around. I'm not sure there was room to put them out wider, as that's kind of where the seat-scoop things are.


I don't think you understand what I meant. The curved hinge arm doesn't fix anything itself, it is only required to allow the hinge axis to be further ahead of the opening edge. Due to the headrest fairings, the offset from hinge axis to opening would be very large.


What really makes me shake my head about this whole thing is that the lid looks like an original part of the kit, and so there should be a hinge system already worked out for it by the "manufacturer" of the "kit". Perhaps that was covered in an earlier video.


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## dedlast (Aug 17, 2013)

When I saw what you were trying to do, I wondered about using a hinge assembly like some older cars used. Kind of a cantilever system rather than a simple pivot hinge. I really don't know if they would work, but something like this:








Auto Metal Direct W-996 Auto Metal Direct Hood Hinges | Summit Racing


Free Shipping - Auto Metal Direct Hood Hinges with qualifying orders of $99. Shop Hood Hinges at Summit Racing.




www.summitracing.com





B


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

dedlast said:


> When I saw what you were trying to do, I wondered about using a hinge assembly like some older cars used. Kind of a cantilever system rather than a simple pivot hinge. I really don't know if they would work, but something like this:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yes, there are few design variations, and that's what I was referring to in this:
​


brian_ said:


> The other common solution, to avoid having the lid move too far toward stuff above the hinge area, is to use a four-bar linkage hinge. That's commonly found in the engine hoods of older North American cars. With this sort of design, the hinges could probably be moved further apart for stability... perhaps even at the corners where they should be.​​


​


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## dedlast (Aug 17, 2013)

brian_ said:


> Yes, there are few design variations, and that's what I was referring to in this:
> ​​



I see what you're saying, Brian. I admit that I was a bit behind in my reading and only skimmed through your post.

B


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## snowdog (Oct 22, 2018)

It's bad luck to have a car without a name

Name my car


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## MattsAwesomeStuff (Aug 10, 2017)

Has back surgery, still has time for a weekly video. Your discipline is unmatched.

Rain gutters look good.

I agree with you that the trunk is much more useful when the opening faces the exterior of the vehicle. Hood too, it's one of the things I want to change about my car since it probably has lots of room for a frunk, I don't like having that area boxed in, I'd rather it be open and accessible from a walk-up.

I am fairly firmly against naming cars myself. But this has just led to other people naming my cars for me, which means my cars have names and I didn't even get to pick them.

Naming your own car though is a bit pretentious, it's like giving yourself a nickname.

I dated a girl who's car's name was "Candy", because it was candy-apple red, and because if her car was a stripper, that would be her car's stripper name. A lot to unpack there.


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

All of our vehicles have a name that is routinely used for them, but not in the sense of a personal name... our Mazda 3 is called "the Mazda", the Toyota Sienna is "the van", etc. Each is unique only within our fleet (we only have one car from Mazda, one van-type vehicle, etc).

I had one vehicle that came with a name from the previous owner, which was "Rodney" (that's the car, not the owner). It made sense to her, but not to me, so I didn't use it.

I would only name a car that I had created, and was substantially different from any production vehicle - this project certainly qualifies. I would give it something like a model name (as if it is the prototype), rather than a personal name (for an individual). But what I would do doesn't matter, of course.



MattsAwesomeStuff said:


> Naming your own car though is a bit pretentious, it's like giving yourself a nickname.


But it's your car, not you. Don't you name your own pets? I don't see a difference.


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

The trunk lid configuration makes much more sense now. If I understand some comments correctly, the original design hinged the engine cover at the rear where there was an essentially straight rear edge, which would have been much more appropriate for that leading edge shape, and it had either a separate trunk lid or no trunk lid at all. When the kit design doesn't suit the desired configuration, "simple" changes can get very complicated... or perhaps "rich learning experiences".

At some point the car becomes a custom, built with some K-1 frame and body parts. Perhaps a good name would be _Tikaton_, which - in case it's not obvious - is "not a kit", written in reverse so it's less obvious.


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## snowdog (Oct 22, 2018)

brian_ said:


> At some point the car becomes a custom, built with some K-1 frame and body parts. Perhaps a good name would be _Tikaton_, which - in case it's not obvious - is "not a kit", written in reverse so it's less obvious.


LOL! I like it


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## 4G63T (Jan 9, 2019)

This car has not been cooperating for some time now . It only makes sense to name it Dottie , from movie Armageddon .

Quote from movie Armageddon :
“I wanna name her Dottie after my wife. She's a vicious life-sucking bitch from which there is no escape.”


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## MattsAwesomeStuff (Aug 10, 2017)

brian_ said:


> But it's your car, not you.


Same deal, it's a thing you own, or a thing you built.



> Don't you name your own pets? I don't see a difference.


Pets need a name that they understand refers to them, for purposes of instruction.

I did not name my goldfish, as they wouldn't recognize it.

I did name my rabbits, which, I mistakenly thought would not be trainable or recognize their own name, but that's because I was a child.

I also named my stuffed animals when I was a child, but, like the rabbits, that is because I was a child. That's why naming cars feels childish to me.

We also anthropomorphize pets, which we interact with and have personality. A car, much less so.

I don't name my trees or my watch either.

All I've ever called my car is "My Car" because I don't own any other cars, just larger vehicles. Like you with "the Mazda". If I did, I suppose "My GT" would suffice. Though "Rusty" and "Crusty" have been suggested by others .

Perhaps when I'm closer to finishing or driving it I'll have a change of heart.


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

MattsAwesomeStuff said:


> Pets need a name that they understand refers to them, for purposes of instruction.
> 
> I did not name my goldfish, as they wouldn't recognize it.


A trainable pet's name needs to be recognizable to them, but it doesn't matter to the pet what the name means to anyone else. It seems likely that the car has been and addressed by the owner - perhaps with profanities attached - and it's not going to understand no matter what name is chosen... although if some personal digital assistant is added it could be trained to recognize its name: "Tikaton, what is your state of charge?", followed by "Why the **** can't you tell me?"


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## snowdog (Oct 22, 2018)

Making a custom digital dash


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## MattsAwesomeStuff (Aug 10, 2017)

snowdog said:


> Making a custom digital dash


The amount of effort you put into a fiberglass part that won't even be visible, was too much. A single flat piece of plastic would have been fine.

Letting your subscribers name your car? Ugh. That's like letting your subscribers name your child. Even worse! You can make a child faster than you made a car, and the car costs more, and you'll get more joy from the car!


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## Swing (Apr 25, 2021)

Well since Matt is not being very positive, I will be  Nice work!


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## snowdog (Oct 22, 2018)

Swing said:


> Well since Matt is not being very positive, I will be  Nice work!


Thanks Friend!


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## MattsAwesomeStuff (Aug 10, 2017)

Swing said:


> Well since Matt is not being very positive, I will be  Nice work!


I was being positive about the car. It's the subscribers and children I was expressing a low opinion of


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## snowdog (Oct 22, 2018)

Getting professional help


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## MattsAwesomeStuff (Aug 10, 2017)

I find it odd that somehow the positive plate wouldn't be isolated from the battery case. That seems like a bigger problem than a "just put an insulating plate on it". Like... _why_ is it not isolated? Who sold you these batteries? EV West again?  But I don't think that's it.

Back to what we diagnosed earlier in the build, you do not have a short. You almost certainly don't even have a leak, because if it was a leak it would be the tiniest, tiniest drip of a leak, too small to even measure. So, what we know is that it's charging up some amount of capacitance. You know this because a leak would have a consistent voltage. Capacitance would drop merely by the act of measuring it, which is what you observed. Capacitance would charge up, and then the current drain would stop when the voltages equalized (minus capacitive leakage). An actual leak would continuously discharge the battery.

So, that said, what is a capacitor? A capacitor is any two conductors separated by an insulator. Like, say, a conductive battery case, a conductive cooling plate, and a thin film of thermal paste. Or two wires running side-by-side. Not a dangerous amount, yeah it might be 300+v, but, rubbing your feet on the carpet charges you up to 10,000v, there's just only a minuscule amount of energy stored, and it can't sustain that pulse so when you touch a doorknob, you don't die, the discharge is only microseconds long. In your case, not enough of a leak or energy stored to even measure it without it vanishing in a couple seconds.

I think the capacitance is probably not your problem. There is capacitance, maybe more than there should be, but it's a wild goose chase to try to track every opportunity of it down. That's just going to exist in your car by virtue of dozens of parts of it mechanically having some non-zero capacitance. Again, any two conductors separated by an insulator, the voltage of which will also ebb and flow as the conductors are conducting (i.e. pre-charging, running systems, driving, etc).

But somehow this capacitance is also meanwhile getting into the control electronics. Which is a separate problem, and the real problem. That probably means your data cables aren't shielded well enough. Or, it's inside some of the electronics you bought.

...

In other news, I'm more starstruck by you getting to hang out with John Kelly than I was with you hanging out with Zach. I didn't know that Weber was also in the LDS fraternity of educational Youtubers. I have a theory on 2 cultural anchors that have led to so many good educational channels founded by LDS members. One is that the mandatory 2-year proselytizing is a brain-grinder for both effective presentation and communication of your ideas with strangers in a way that they'd understand (essentially: hosting, script-writing, content selection, succinctness, etc), and a humbling experience of near constant rejection that makes you impervious to fear of rejection or shame of attempting new outgoing things. The other is the sense of agency over your own behavior and future.


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

MattsAwesomeStuff said:


> I find it odd that somehow the positive plate wouldn't be isolated from the battery case.


There is no single "positive plate" in a module,; although of course the most-positive cell has positive side, it is not isolated any differently from the other cells. Each of the heat transfer fins which runs between a pair of cells and turns to contact the cooling plate is exposed to a different potential - each of them is positive compared to one neighboring fin and negative compared to the neighbor on the other side, if they are not completely isolated from the cells that they are cooling. If the fins where conductively connected to the cell terminals, any conductive plate clamped to them would be a short across every second cell of the module, and across the entire module. If the plates were conductively mounted to the frame, the entire pack voltage would be shorted through the frame.

The outside of each pouch is intended to be isolated from both terminals, but that isolation is not expected to be complete - there is certainly capacitive coupling, but there is also some conductivity.

In this design, which is widely used in LG Chem and other modules, there is no case between the cooling plates and the whatever surrounds the module. The modules are not intended to be exposed, but are supposed to be (as they are in snowdog's car) enclosed in a controlled environment, in contact with a heat-transfer plate using suitable materials (and those materials are an aspect which is being worked on). The "case" of the module is really a stack of retention frames, rather than a housing.


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## snowdog (Oct 22, 2018)

High voltage problems are solved (I think)


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## MattsAwesomeStuff (Aug 10, 2017)

snowdog said:


> High voltage problems are solved (I think)


Mmmm, I hope so.

But your symptoms didn't line up with a voltage leak. You know this, because it was so slow of a trickle that you couldn't even measure it without it dropping. If your cooling plates were leaking voltage you would've been able to measure it as a steady voltage. So, isolating the batteries better is good regardless, but, if you were getting high voltage into your control electronics, that's not solved.

Using the Megger... I dunno that I would've done that. You're not just "testing" them to 1000v. I'm pretty sure the test is that you're applying 1000v to those wires. You shouldn't be doing that to anything that doesn't have 1000v+ volt rating, and being really sure anything rated less is nowhere near enough that it might be getting tested accidentally. Suppose you had insulation rated for 80v, or 400v... by feeding it 1000v to "test", you've certainly punctured through that insulation. Many micro-punctures burned through, probably not visible to the eye. Think of it like 'testing" bulletproof armor plates. Suppose it's supposed to be impervious to .22 pistol rounds, and you start shooting 7.62 rifle rounds at it and say "Aha, I can see where the holes are". What you've actually done is created new leaks, gone and punctured and bunch of holes in otherwise perfectly good small-caliber plates. Some in places you expected, and some in places you probably didn't expect. You might not even notice yet that you made all those punctures.

Especially your low voltage wiring, those wires are not going to have much for insulation. Especially if you've already been having control-electronics problems and isolation problems in and around the delicate low-voltage electronics making their way to high voltage, waving 1000v around near them and stress testing them to that is certainly going to make your problems worse. Let alone if it gets into the chips (which behave erratically after HV/static damage, which is why you use a grounding strap when installing RAM for example, it's not instant failure, it's more likely reduced life expectancy and erratic behavior) the wires will now have micro-punctures everywhere in them. So, depends what you were doing with it and where, and what might have already had weak wires.

BMS fault... who sold you the BMS? EV West again or is this already a replacement to that one?


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## snowdog (Oct 22, 2018)

Just following the steps that John (WeberAuto) and I did at his shop. I texted and emailed him throughout the troubleshooting process. I figure he knows best. He mentioned that this is commonly done in hybrid and electric cars for troubleshooting these types of problems. This is 1000V but extremely low amperage. Like if you walked through the carpet in your socks and got in your car, you are not likely to damage your electronics. This is also done with the 12V system disconnected so it is just testing the high voltage to the chassis. And all my high voltage wires are rated to over 1000V. If I were blasting new holes through insulation the meter and data would definitely confirm that. 

What I learned from John, is it is not so much a "leak" as a loss of isolation. This loss of isolation was due to the battery module cooling elements. Hard to argue with John or data


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## MattsAwesomeStuff (Aug 10, 2017)

snowdog said:


> This is 1000V but extremely low amperage. Like if you walked through the carpet in your socks and got in your car, you are not likely to damage your electronics.


Hmm, that's not really equivalent.

The amperage doesn't matter, in terms of whether you punctured the insulation or not. Think of the insulation like a rubber plate filled with water, and then you punch "only" a pinhole through it. You now have a hole in it. It's not a fist-sized hole, but it's still a hole that wasn't there before. The purpose of the insulation is to prevent a certain voltage from being able to jump that gap. Any amount of hole in it is like a break in a dam. Or, think of "only" poking a balloon with a pin, not a bullet.

The reason you're not likely to damage your car from static is because you're not touching any of the parts that are sensitive to static. Their enclosures are either isolated, or grounded, to avoid damage. Otherwise yeah, you'd fry just about anything you touched. That's why you wear a grounding strap when handling unshielded electronics.

In your case, you were not certain how or where voltage was getting into places it shouldn't be, so you were not aware of whether anything sensitive was properly isolated or grounded. In fact, your symptoms show that this was particularly an issue, you were getting voltage in places you were not supposed to. Shoving 1000v at that (versus 400v or however much your pack is), to me, would be the worst thing you could do to those electronics.

That's kind of like using a hammer to find out what types of glasses are breakable.



> This is also done with the 12V system disconnected so it is just testing the high voltage to the chassis.


Yes, and that would be the key to only testing the thing you wanted to test. However, you were already getting erratic behavior in your electronics. The unknown unknowns. So you already had some kind of path between your HV and your electronics that you _didn't_ know where it was connected.



> And all my high voltage wires are rated to over 1000V.


Yes, that's fine. That's like a bridge being rated for 100 tons and then driving 100 tons across it. It better survive, and if it doesn't, it'll probably be obvious where, and you need to rebuild the part that failed. That's how the megger is supposed to be used. It tests the insulating ability of the thing you're testing, below or at its maximum rating. So you did that, and you found a weakpoint in the insulation, then you fixed it, that's good so far.

What I'm concerned about is that you didn't know how voltage was getting into the delicate parts of your electronics, and I don't think you removed them from the vehicle. You only disconnected them from the places they were supposed to be connected. You then tested it for leaks by applying 1000v shocks to everything. And then listened for where you could hear it puncturing through and conducting where it shouldn't be. How many other places was this happening that didn't make a noise?



> If I were blasting new holes through insulation the meter and data would definitely confirm that.


Yes and no. Maybe. You know that voltage was getting to places it shouldn't have been before already, and interfering with your electronics. That's why you're troubleshooting. So, if it was already getting through there, then you give it 1000v, that's definitely enough to punch through that same area, harder. Maybe it arced and then the arcing created oxidized buildup or fried something, which then insulated it. This can happen almost instantly and imperceptibly. That's fairly normal, which leads to inconsistent behavior in the future.

Considering the nature of your glitching, I don't think I would've felt safe using a megger without removing all the sensitive electronics first (which, I don't even know is possible in your case without gutting it entirely).



> What I learned from John, is it is not so much a "leak" as a loss of isolation. This loss of isolation was due to the battery module cooling elements.


Hmm. How are you defining a "loss of isolation"?

If something isn't isolated, then voltage (of whatever relevant level) will cause current to flow.

I agree that you did a thing, and it discovered a thing, and then you fixed a thing. That's all good. That was worth doing for its own sake.

But, you know you didn't have current flowing. And you knew you were still getting static buildup, and that seemed to be the best guess for the symptoms you were having. However voltage was interfering with your electronics, that's still an issue, no? Like, they're still not isolated or grounded properly, in addition to what you've discovered about the battery trays.

I hope that what you did fixed things, seems to be only half the solution though.

_shrugs_


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## snowdog (Oct 22, 2018)

LOL! I will let John know that he was wrong and you are right


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## snowdog (Oct 22, 2018)

Working on the trunk again


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## MattsAwesomeStuff (Aug 10, 2017)

"Looks like we've got a couple different styles of ground clamp"

Nope. This was probably obvious to you later, but..

The first one, the red one, is called a "stinger", it's the stick welding electrode holder. It is not an alternative to the ground clamp, the ground clamp is still used to complete the circuit. The stinger is what you'd use in place of the torch. You bought a multi-function machine and stick welding is the easiest. Any welding machine that isn't stick, is a multi-function machine that includes stick. You just need a voltage, the electrode does all the rest. You'll probably never use it when you've got MIG and TIG on the same machine. Almost zero use case for it except maybe if you're outdoors and it's too windy for shield gas.










I was a bit skeptical of the trunk looking decent if you cut the triangle off, but, it looks like it was designed that way. Lines work perfectly fine that way.

If you look at how much the nose dove into the bodywork, (10-11"?), that is how much your scissoring mechanism would have had to either lift, or pull it rearward, which is way beyond what any trunk mechanism I've seen could accomplish. This is something you can easily eyeball (on any hinge, not just the trunk), by guessing your pivot line and then opening the mechanism and seeing how much lift and pull you get compared to what the angle of the trunk tip would have to do. Your Mazdas were able to fudge an inch or so at most forward, and maybe 4 or 5 inches of upward scissoring. Any solution would have had to put the hinge pivot line at least in the same ballpark of the forward-most part of the trunk lid. Then, to address clearance around the trunk opening, you may or may not have to also have some hook to the hinge (though trunks usually have one or the other, a hook or a scissor). 

The farthest back you chose to fit your pivot point (else you get too pidgeontoed like your previous attempt) was like, a foot away from the rear of the trunk. That means that if you opened the trunk completely vertical, the frontward nose of the trunk lid would protrude downward that same foot. (You didn't quite open it 90 degrees, more like, 60, but, it's almost the same measurement at that point in the arc). It's just geometry, you can't escape it. I don't think there's a scissor out there that has that significant of a lift.










Just by the limitations of your trunk bay, nothing practical was going to work. The scissor mechanism accomplished like, 1/3 of what it needed to based on the place you chose for your pivot point. If you'd have been able to put it within 4" of the back of the trunk, the 4" scissor would have worked, but the triangle you removed was itself at least that big. 

So, I agree, if you couldn't fit your pivor point significantly farther forward, changing the shape of the trunk was the only reasonable option. And it looks great anyway.


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## snowdog (Oct 22, 2018)

MattsAwesomeStuff said:


> So, I agree, if you couldn't fit your pivor point significantly farther forward, changing the shape of the trunk was the only reasonable option. And it looks great anyway.


Thanks for the comment!


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## snowdog (Oct 22, 2018)

Driving with new cameras


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## snowdog (Oct 22, 2018)

I got the rear clamshell fastened with some supports for the access panels. Also fixed the BMS. Driving again to test things out.


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## snowdog (Oct 22, 2018)

Starting work on the interior


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## snowdog (Oct 22, 2018)

Trying to finish the interior


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## snowdog (Oct 22, 2018)

Trying out Hydro Dipping


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## snowdog (Oct 22, 2018)

Testing out the car at night


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## snowdog (Oct 22, 2018)

"wrapping" up the interior


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## snowdog (Oct 22, 2018)

Finalizing Lambo Doors


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## snowdog (Oct 22, 2018)

We have mirrors!


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## snowdog (Oct 22, 2018)

Windshield on!


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## snowdog (Oct 22, 2018)

Registered!


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## snowdog (Oct 22, 2018)

Insured!


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## Scotty274 (Jul 1, 2020)

snowdog said:


> Insured!


Watched that this morning, this is one of the reasons that I discussed insurance before I even started my build.

Insurance can be notoriously finnicky, in the future though, my wife works in Home Insurance and I was discussing this with here, if you can't get insurance, or in the future if they choose to decline you, you can go to places like Chubb or people that Insure Insurance Companies and Banks and stuff, they'll also have a consumer arm in some cases and then you can deal with them to get a "Bespoke" solution if it's super weird and wonderful.

She said she was told during training that they have a customer who is a Gunsmith, and he has a collection of WWII tanks, he has them all insured through Chubb as no one wants to insure the liability of an accident with the tank otherwise.

Likewise he has in the vicinity of a few hundred firearms, which aren't covered on a standard home insurance or business insurance policy.

So there are solutions out there if you don't have any joy.


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## snowdog (Oct 22, 2018)

Thanks for sharing!


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## snowdog (Oct 22, 2018)

Take your homemade supercar to work day


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## snowdog (Oct 22, 2018)

Range Testing


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## snowdog (Oct 22, 2018)

Working on the front (Sequential Turn Signals)


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## snowdog (Oct 22, 2018)

Adding Fingerprint Security


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## snowdog (Oct 22, 2018)

Starting on sanding


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## snowdog (Oct 22, 2018)

Front finished?


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## snowdog (Oct 22, 2018)

My first car fire


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## snowdog (Oct 22, 2018)

Finishing up the passenger side


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## snowdog (Oct 22, 2018)

Trying to figure out the roof


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## joekitch (Sep 13, 2013)

Holy shit that top looks terrible, that immediate chopped off look is awful
absolutely agree on doing a sort of flying buttress design
for inspiration i recommend looking into the ND miata, as well as the early C3 corvette


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## snowdog (Oct 22, 2018)

Taking things apart...again


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## snowdog (Oct 22, 2018)

Making my own steering wheel


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

Why use a yoke, unless you have less than one turn lock-to-lock of steering shaft rotation? Basically, if you can't safely and effectively steer the vehicle in all turns with your hands taped to the yoke, a yoke is not an appropriate steering control.

Tesla does it; that doesn't make it "cool", it makes it a marketing gimmick for people who don't really drive. Formula 1 race cars do it, and their tightest turns don't require the driver's hands move from their positions on the yoke.

An effective way to do this is to laminate wood segments around a flat metal core (like the spokes).
Superfast Matt's version (a wheel, not a yoke): Build Your Own Steering Wheel. Or Just Watch Me Do It. Whatever.
If it is to be entirely covered (as this is) the material choice is wide open, and it could be 3D-printed front and back halves around the structural metal core.

Why does it have a bottom? Because it's straight it's not very useful.


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## snowdog (Oct 22, 2018)

Clearly I am not as cool as SuperfastMatt.

Why...To better see the gauge cluster and provide more leg room.
I completely agree that it is not as useful as a standard steering wheel. I may find that I completely hate it.


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

snowdog said:


> Clearly I am not as cool as SuperfastMatt.


Almost no one is. 

Matt's wheel is not dished. To do a dished wheel by his method, I assume that one would need either a huge press, or to cut the spokes and rim as separate pieces and weld them together.



snowdog said:


> Why...To better see the gauge cluster and provide more leg room.
> I completely agree that it is not as useful as a standard steering wheel. I may find that I completely hate it.


I would always vote for better gauge placement over omitting the top of the steering wheel. Although I realize that the dash and wheel don't line up well at the desired steering column position, a solution (even used in some production cars) is to mount the gauge cluster on the steering column.

Moderate flattening of the bottom of the wheel is a reasonable compromise, and is quite common.


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## dlud (Jul 19, 2021)

What did you use to operate the PDNR with the TC-2 (other than your touchscreen)?


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## snowdog (Oct 22, 2018)

I used a gear selector from a Honda Odyssey (minivan)


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## dlud (Jul 19, 2021)

I assume “park” is not functional.


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## snowdog (Oct 22, 2018)

LOL! Yes, the T2C does not have a park function


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## snowdog (Oct 22, 2018)

Finishing up the rear


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## snowdog (Oct 22, 2018)

Finishing the wing and adding a bumper


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## infamouslunchbox (Dec 2, 2021)

Funny I just came across your channel and subscribed today. I love what you've done and I'm watching through your entire build. I think we may be in the same state, actually. If you ever show this off, I'd love to come see it in person.


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## snowdog (Oct 22, 2018)

I have done a few meet and greets. As the weather gets warmer I may take it to cars and coffee. Stay tuned


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## infamouslunchbox (Dec 2, 2021)

Very cool.


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## snowdog (Oct 22, 2018)

Time to pick a color


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## snowdog (Oct 22, 2018)

Making custom door panels


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## snowdog (Oct 22, 2018)

Trying to make the roof look good


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## snowdog (Oct 22, 2018)

Trying to make the roof look good part 2


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## snowdog (Oct 22, 2018)

Steel reinforced fiberglass


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## snowdog (Oct 22, 2018)

Going to my first car meet

*



*


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## snowdog (Oct 22, 2018)

And the weigh in


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## snowdog (Oct 22, 2018)

Roof is finished!


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## snowdog (Oct 22, 2018)

Time to start painting!


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## snowdog (Oct 22, 2018)

Color Reveal


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## snowdog (Oct 22, 2018)

1st time racing!


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## dedlast (Aug 17, 2013)

Congratulations! It does look like you had a good time. I would like to see more of the road course footage, though.


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## MattsAwesomeStuff (Aug 10, 2017)

Wow, congrats, a trophy on your first trip out. I'd gotten used to it being kitchen white, but it looks stunning in blue as well.

Good of you for showing you driving like... a beginner. I think people often forget that competitors all started somewhere, and that a responsible person isn't practising on public roads. Everyone who's competing had to learn at the track, where of course you're discovering your own car and how it handles and what your skills are.

Gotta buy or build yourself some better ramps. Or a trailer. Dirt cheap compared to your car. Or maybe just rent a car dolly instead, and then if you're sneaky and have remote control over the regen, you can tow yourself in circles to recharge at the track.


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## snowdog (Oct 22, 2018)

MattsAwesomeStuff said:


> Wow, congrats, a trophy on your first trip out. I'd gotten used to it being kitchen white, but it looks stunning in blue as well.
> 
> Good of you for showing you driving like... a beginner. I think people often forget that competitors all started somewhere, and that a responsible person isn't practising on public roads. Everyone who's competing had to learn at the track, where of course you're discovering your own car and how it handles and what your skills are.
> 
> Gotta buy or build yourself some better ramps. Or a trailer. Dirt cheap compared to your car. Or maybe just rent a car dolly instead, and then if you're sneaky and have remote control over the regen, you can tow yourself in circles to recharge at the track.


Thanks!

Yes, if I do this more regularly I would need a truck, trailer, better ramps. All were borrowed or rented. It was a little bit of a nightmare loading and unloading and can see that any investment here would be well worth it.


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## joekitch (Sep 13, 2013)

Say, any chance you could share the cad models of your chill plates? I assume you made the models then had send cut send cut them up, how much was that per plate anyway?


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## snowdog (Oct 22, 2018)

joekitch said:


> Say, any chance you could share the cad models of your chill plates? I assume you made the models then had send cut send cut them up, how much was that per plate anyway?


LOL! that was 2 1/2 years ago. I will have to do some digging to see if I can find them. Send-cut-send does not do holes. I used a machine shop.


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## joekitch (Sep 13, 2013)

I think they do it now, thankfully, although for $19 minimum for any rap plus $3 extra for every tap after that, it probably adds up fast









Tapping Guidelines


View the specifications, design guidelines and best practices for tapping services for your laser cut projects. Learn about thread types, hole sizing and more.




sendcutsend.com


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## snowdog (Oct 22, 2018)

I found the small chill plate files. Where should I send them


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## joekitch (Sep 13, 2013)

I'd recommend just tossing them onto grabcad






Free CAD Designs, Files & 3D Models | The GrabCAD Community Library


The GrabCAD Library offers millions of free CAD designs, CAD files, and 3D models. Join the GrabCAD Community today to gain access and download!




grabcad.com


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## snowdog (Oct 22, 2018)

joekitch said:


> I'd recommend just tossing them onto grabcad
> 
> 
> 
> ...


put it in GrabCAD






Free CAD Designs, Files & 3D Models | The GrabCAD Community Library


The GrabCAD Library offers millions of free CAD designs, CAD files, and 3D models. Join the GrabCAD Community today to gain access and download!




grabcad.com


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## joekitch (Sep 13, 2013)

Did the file lose some info in the conversion perhaps? Looking at the 3d view in grab cad it seems to only have three tubes going through it....?


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## snowdog (Oct 22, 2018)

joekitch said:


> View attachment 131633
> 
> View attachment 131634
> 
> ...


These were my small cooling plates for individual battery modules. Were you interested in my big plate where the channels snake around?


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## joekitch (Sep 13, 2013)

Yup, that's what I was shooting for as I was planning to have multiple modules share a plate to simplify running hoses.

For that single module plate, is it literally a chunk of aluminum with channels drilled into it? Or did you drill holes and then run copper pipes through it


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## snowdog (Oct 22, 2018)

joekitch said:


> Yup, that's what I was shooting for as I was planning to have multiple modules share a plate to simplify running hoses.
> 
> For that single module plate, is it literally a chunk of aluminum with channels drilled into it? Or did you drill holes and then run copper pipes through it


I have uploaded that one as well. I made this symmetrical so I could order 2. I did have to drill and tap inlets & outlets. To make it more bullet proof, you may want to add a groove for a gasket to ensure everything seals well.






Free CAD Designs, Files & 3D Models | The GrabCAD Community Library


The GrabCAD Library offers millions of free CAD designs, CAD files, and 3D models. Join the GrabCAD Community today to gain access and download!




grabcad.com


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## snowdog (Oct 22, 2018)

Trying out carbon fiber


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## snowdog (Oct 22, 2018)

Roof Complete!


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## snowdog (Oct 22, 2018)

Carbon fiber center console


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## snowdog (Oct 22, 2018)

Finishing Touches


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## snowdog (Oct 22, 2018)

A museum wants my car








A Museum Wants My Garage-Built Supercar - Electric supercar #shorts


The strangest thing happened to me the other day. The owner of a car museum wants my car in his museum.Channel Store - https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC-Uk...




youtube.com


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## snowdog (Oct 22, 2018)

Adding some carbon fiber accents


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## snowdog (Oct 22, 2018)

Stabilized Carbon Fiber


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## joekitch (Sep 13, 2013)

snowdog said:


> I have uploaded that one as well. I made this symmetrical so I could order 2. I did have to drill and tap inlets & outlets. To make it more bullet proof, you may want to add a groove for a gasket to ensure everything seals well.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Checking in some time later, have these served you well in terms of thermal control? Even under heavy usage? The channel to carry liquid seems pretty thin but I'm guessing it's all you need


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## snowdog (Oct 22, 2018)

I have never had a problem or even remotely close with cooling. This is even with multiple drag runs, multiple auto-x runs, and hot laps in the summer in California. My battery pack is only 32kWh so maybe if yours is bigger and can run longer that maybe something else to consider. I think my pack would run out well before I encounter any thermal problems.


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