# EPC Controllers.....



## PZigouras (Jun 5, 2010)

I do. Because I work for the company.

- Paul


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## PZigouras (Jun 5, 2010)

P.S. Because I'm the sales person, I can't say anything bad about them.

But I can say plenty of good things about them


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## DIYguy (Sep 18, 2008)

OK, this is your opportunity. Tell us why they are good. Try and find something that could be better.  Tell us who is using them. If you have a 2000 amp model, why aren't they in race cars? . . or are they?? hmmm 
How much do they cost? What can I tweak? Software accessible? Idle function? Limp home mode? Reverse input? Brake input? programmable outputs? .... c'mon, lets hear about it. 

How much current for how long? Water cooling required? Graphs? (u get the idea)...


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## Salty9 (Jul 13, 2009)

Web site don't say much do it? Maybe they're in stealth mode.


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## PZigouras (Jun 5, 2010)

The EP-1000 and EP-2000 (both 1000 and 2000 amp respectively) were born as industrial controllers. As a matter of fact, they still are.

They like to live in factories, construction sites, and places where large, DC motors are often found. They look much like any other industrial control… not too fancy, just a regular NEMA 3 enclosure. But, much unlike their cousins from Baldor, Danfoss, Reliance, and Dart, these units were special. They enjoy wet/damp locations where most standard industrial controllers will not go. They were also designed to be simple, plug-and-play, modular units. This made their cousins mad. Very mad.

Instead of complex programming and buttons to control motor speed, these units set up in less than 5 minutes, have only 6 wires, and use a simple rotary knob for speed control. There are no harnesses, diagnostics, touch screens, or anything else that could possibly go wrong in these harsh environments. You can literally set up a factory with 100 DC motors and 100 of these units, and have it all up and running in one day.

Oh, and here’s the kicker… they run on 12 volts DC, unlike their cousins from Baldor, Danfoss, Reliance, and Dart, which require an outlet to plug them into.

Okay, now back to the story. Then, one day, a deranged (and possibly drunk) EV owner who recently had a “Logisystems-related” EV car fire decided that he was going shove one of these massive controllers into his car. Well, I guess that was kind of like the day that kid with the open peanut butter container bumped into the kid who was holding a Hershey’s Bar, and got peanut butter all over his chocolate. They came up with a new product, but I forget what they called it...

Anyways, that’s the story, and I’ll try to upload some data about it tomorrow for you guys to sift through. A lot of these units are private-label branded, so we normally don’t publish the specs and pricing online… and if we do, they are usually very general.

Again, these units were never designed to be used in EV’s… but it just happens that they work perfectly in them. I know this first hand, because after a few insane people did it, my curiosity got the best of me… and I did it too. That said, I would not jump off a bridge if they did. I think.


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## DIYguy (Sep 18, 2008)

PZigouras said:


> Anyways, that’s the story, and I’ll try to upload some data about it tomorrow for you guys to sift through. A lot of these units are private-label branded, so we normally don’t publish the specs and pricing online… and if we do, they are usually very general.
> 
> Again, these units were never designed to be used in EV’s… but it just happens that they work perfectly in them. I know this first hand, because after a few insane people did it, my curiosity got the best of me… and I did it too. That said, I would not jump off a bridge if they did. I think.


OK, so if you want to sell them, you need to show some data. Not being programmable in any way??? is not a good thing for EV'ers. How about this basic need.... In my case, can I connect it to my 210 volt battery and limit the voltage to my DC series motor to, say...160 or so? Or could I put a limit on how much current I draw from my battery to protect it from.... "me"? lol


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## PZigouras (Jun 5, 2010)

Again, we're really not targeting the EV market, so I doubt we will be adding any more EV-related features to the units (at least not internally -- external modules are available for certain features). The industry demand for large DC motor controllers is so high right now, we can barely keep up production as is.

Neither controller has a voltage limiter, mostly because these industrial motors run at regular line voltages. You can, however, limit the % of duty cycle, which effectively limits the current (and motor speed).

In your case, I would not worry about burning out this controller... I would worry more about cooking the motor. These controllers contain 4 and 8 massive IGBT's, respectively... to blow the EP-1000, you would have to pull over 4 x 800A continuously for over 5 seconds, and for the EP-2000, 8 x 800A.

I will see if I can get a list of add-ons that we make.... some may help if anyone wants to install one.

- Paul


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## DIYguy (Sep 18, 2008)

PZigouras said:


> In your case, I would not worry about burning out this controller... I would worry more about cooking the motor. These controllers contain 4 and 8 massive IGBT's, respectively... to blow the EP-1000, you would have to pull over 4 x 800A continuously for over 5 seconds, and for the EP-2000, 8 x 800A.
> 
> I will see if I can get a list of add-ons that we make.... some may help if anyone wants to install one.
> 
> - Paul


I wasn't referring to burning the controller, I was referring first to the motor, then to the battery. Any good controller, should protect itself from harm. 

Yes, sure, show whatever you have.


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## EVfun (Mar 14, 2010)

PZigouras said:


> In your case, I would not worry about burning out this controller... I would worry more about cooking the motor. These controllers contain 4 and 8 massive IGBT's, respectively... to blow the EP-1000, you would have to pull over 4 x 800A continuously for over 5 seconds, and for the EP-2000, 8 x 800A.
> 
> I will see if I can get a list of add-ons that we make.... some may help if anyone wants to install one.


Something like 6000 amps for 5 seconds to failure? If there is some way to get past the 2000 amp designated limit there may be some race teams interested! Knowing what add-on modules are available would be appreciated.


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## Ziggythewiz (May 16, 2010)

So what's it take to get a simple price quote for an EP-1000?


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## PZigouras (Jun 5, 2010)

I'm making a list of all the add-on modules that are currently available; I will upload it shortly. Meanwhile, here are the specs for the EP-1000. On request, the specs can change slightly when we re-brand them for a reseller, but the generic ones we manufacture are all the same.

Nominal Voltage: 24v to 350v
Nominal AMPS: 1000
Capacitor Bank: 12,400 mF
Physical Size: (about) 13 x 12 x 6.5 inches
Will explode violently at: as soon as you hit 3200 amps
Auto Current Limiting: None
Buss Bars: Solid Aluminum

The EP-2000 has pretty much the same specs, but is about 1.5 inches wider. It also has solid copper buss bars instead. Big ones. I'm not completely sure what the explosion amp rating is, because I've never seen one blow up before. One of our customers did blow one up when he stalled a large DC motor. I'm not sure what the draw was, but the motor weighed 11,500 pounds and slightly larger than my car.

Keep in mind that BOTH units are 100% manual control with no automatic safeties. Your foot controls all the power all the time... it will not cut back the power under any circumstances. You can weld with it, if you'd like. Great for electrocuting people, too.

You CAN limit power and acceleraton by limiting the pulse width of the unit... for example, you can set it to 40% if you have a puny 6.7-inch ADC motor (as I had in my car for a while). You can also change it in real time from inside the car with an optional module.

- Paul


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## DIYguy (Sep 18, 2008)

PZigouras said:


> Neither controller has a voltage limiter, mostly because these industrial motors run at regular line voltages.
> 
> - Paul


You're talking AC voltages here? How is it that an industrial controller is designed for DC input? Most industries run from three phase typically 480 volts in USA and 600 volts in Canada.


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## PZigouras (Jun 5, 2010)

Ziggythewiz said:


> So what's it take to get a simple price quote for an EP-1000?


Although we only sell new units through our resellers, you can call and order refurbished units directly from us.  It is also possible to open up a reseller account, which will allow you to buy new units.

And when you call, try to be as rude, belligerent, offensive, and disrespectful as possible when they give you the price. That way, you may be able to get it for close to wholesale.


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## PZigouras (Jun 5, 2010)

DIYguy said:


> You're talking AC voltages here? How is it that an industrial controller is designed for DC input? Most industries run from three phase typically 480 volts in USA and 600 volts in Canada.


For factories, we include the optional AC Module which is basically a big box with big rectifiers and a DC 12V supply in it. But don't tell them that, because we charge them a lot of money for it.

- Paul


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## PZigouras (Jun 5, 2010)

Ziggythewiz said:


> So what's it take to get a simple price quote for an EP-1000?


Oh, forgot about the price quote. Dah! 

The MSRP depends on the reseller... we recommended $2000, and most of our resellers keep in in that range.

There are also a lot of stolen ones available on the streets. They have different color boxes and labeling depending on what company we make them for, but the're the same thing. If you know someone who works in a factory with DC motors....well....


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## JRoque (Mar 9, 2010)

Hello Paul, you're one of a kind sales person for sure. I'm cracking up here reading your posts on how the controllers are also excellent for electrocutions... good one. And thanks for letting us know you have refurbs available. If new is $2k, refurbished ones might have a good price.

What about temperature derating? Being a beast as you describe, does it require any kind of special cooling to deliver the spec'd power? A temp/power chart would be nice, if you have it.

Could it be that those 4 x IGBTs are there in an H bridge so you can throw the motor in reverse (and do regen)? If that's so, the amp rating is not exactly x 4

JR


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## EVfun (Mar 14, 2010)

JRoque said:


> Hello Paul, you're one of a kind sales person for sure. I'm cracking up here reading your posts on how the controllers are also excellent for electrocutions... good one. And thanks for letting us know you have refurbs available. If new is $2k, refurbished ones might have a good price.


...and I thought this was the funny line...


PZigouras said:


> And when you call, try to be as rude, belligerent, offensive, and disrespectful as possible when they give you the price. That way, you may be able to get it for close to wholesale.


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## coryrc (Aug 5, 2008)

PZigouras said:


> Will explode violently at: as soon as you hit 3200 amps
> Auto Current Limiting: None
> <snip>
> One of our customers did blow one up when he stalled a large DC motor.


This is... unacceptable. I hope you aren't offering a warranty.


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## Guest (Feb 11, 2011)

It actually sounds a bit fishy to me. The Site is not complete for a company that sells to the industry. The other products they say they sell are not accessible on the site and no real information. The sounds of the sales person sound like the site. Weak and sounds too good to be true. If these DC controllers were on the market I am quite sure this and other DIY electric car forums would have latched onto these long ago. From what I have read here is that there is really no product but a way to part you from your money. 

This is way too good to be true. You really need to be carful. Sharks abound. Be carful. Research better before falling for the hype. Some thing like this if true could have all the bells and whistles put in for next to nothing. Plenty of smart computer people here. 

I'd say its bull. 

Prove me wrong. 

Pete


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## peggus (Feb 18, 2008)

Sounds like crap to me, a controller that has no current limit, or temperature protection. Let me guess, it's a 555 timer, some gate drivers and IGBTs? 

Does it even have high throttle lockout?


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## Qer (May 7, 2008)

PZigouras said:


> Will explode violently at: as soon as you hit 3200 amps
> Auto Current Limiting: None


Soooooo, the only thing that protects it is the internal resistance in the pack, cables and motor? Which means that if you hook it up to a serious A123-pack (or similar) you'll have an instant "violent explosion" the first time you give full throttle at a red light?

Call me chicken, but I think I'll keep the current control loop in the Soliton software...


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## PZigouras (Jun 5, 2010)

coryrc said:


> This is... unacceptable. I hope you aren't offering a warranty.


Actually, we have a no-fault warranty for the first year. So if they blow it up, yes, we do replace it free of charge. The only reason we do this is because there is no current limiter, so the warranty was adjusted to make sure customers that make simple mistakes don't have to buy a brand new unit.

Surprisingly the failure rate is still around 0.4% and I think this is partially because no one really ever reaches the explosion-point of the IGBT's because it is so high.


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## PZigouras (Jun 5, 2010)

peggus said:


> Sounds like crap to me, a controller that has no current limit, or temperature protection. Let me guess, it's a 555 timer, some gate drivers and IGBTs?
> 
> Does it even have high throttle lockout?


We do have an optional current limit module for it, as well as a multi-sensor thermal shut down which protects the controller, motor, and cables from overheating (it has 6 sensors). But we find that they are not necessary is most industrial applications. 

We have throttle lockout built into the throttle control. There is NOT one on the box itself, because some factories require single-speed motors to start at full or partial throttle. I believe the PB-6 has one built it, and so does our version of it, along with an idle speed adjustment.

The electronics are standard driver electronics. I'm not 100% how they work, because I don't really do electronics.. but I know we don't have any "timers" in there... just a bunch of circuit boards with little things on them.


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

PZigouras said:


> ........ I'm not 100% how they work, because I don't really do electronics......


Yet you sell these.



PZigouras said:


> I think the case is 5/8 thick steel... a little bit overkill for an EV motor. Even with a motor that big, 1/4-inch steel would have been fine.....There's no need for a case that thick...


And give advice on motor design also.

Welcome to this forum. You'll fit right in


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## bumblebee (Jan 29, 2011)

how do i use the brake regen module for the ep1000 in my car? does it just plug in?


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## PZigouras (Jun 5, 2010)

The Regen Module is actually a massive braking resistor, using to slow down conveyor belts and transports in factories. It won't recharge your battery pack, but it will slow down you car, AND keep your hands and feet warm in the winter if you install it in your heater core vent!

I suppose you can remove the resistor and hook it up directly to your battery back... but most series wound DC motors won't put out enough voltage to even start charging a pack... not unless you're at a million RPM. Plus at less than 40% efficiency, you probably won't gain much, even if it did work.

I'm putting a Baldor AC motor in my car, and I hope to get regen through the AC controller... we'll find out in a few weeks if it works!!!


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## Qer (May 7, 2008)

PZigouras said:


> I'm not 100% how they work, because I don't really do electronics..





PZigouras said:


> but most series wound DC motors won't put out enough voltage to even start charging a pack... not unless you're at a million RPM. Plus at less than 40% efficiency, you probably won't gain much, even if it did work.


Perhaps you don't really do physics as well...?


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## coryrc (Aug 5, 2008)

PZigouras said:


> We do have an optional current limit module for it, as well as a multi-sensor thermal shut down which protects the controller, motor, and cables from overheating (it has 6 sensors). But we find that they are not necessary is most industrial applications.


This isn't "most industrial applications". Settable current limit is necessary to keep the controller from blowing up motors. Also, things like the motor connections being shorted do happen -- the Zilla and Soliton 1 just shut down in this situation; with your controller, the driver will be out $2000.



PZigouras said:


> We have throttle lockout built into the throttle control. There is NOT one on the box itself, because some factories require single-speed motors to start at full or partial throttle. I believe the PB-6 has one built it, and so does our version of it, along with an idle speed adjustment.


PB-6 does not have throttle lockout; it is built into the Curtis controller.


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## PZigouras (Jun 5, 2010)

coryrc said:


> This isn't "most industrial applications". Settable current limit is necessary to keep the controller from blowing up motors. Also, things like the motor connections being shorted do happen -- the Zilla and Soliton 1 just shut down in this situation; with your controller, the driver will be out $2000.


Actually, the buyer won't be out anything... don't forget about the 1-year, no-fault warranty. You could set it on fire and they still have to warranty it.

If you really, really, really, want a current limiter that bad, you can always add one. But if you are like myself, and don't like to lose races, current limiters are not the way to go. I had one, I know.

I was racing against Cadillac STS on interstate 495 when my old controller's current limiter kicked in and he sailed passed me.... I didn't spend $2900 on a [name removed to protect controller company] controller to get my butt kicked by a 10-year-old Cadillac. But, like I said, if you REALLY, REALLY, want a amp limiter... add one. As for me, no thanks....


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## EVfun (Mar 14, 2010)

Qer said:


> Soooooo, the only thing that protects it is the internal resistance in the pack, cables and motor?
> Call me chicken, but I think I'll keep the current control loop in the Soliton software...


*CHICKEN*

you asked for it 

Some day enough power silicon will be so affordable that current limits won't be needed. Still, they will likely be wanted to enforce some reasonable power limits and protect the copper.


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## Batterypoweredtoad (Feb 5, 2008)

Ha! So someone is finally selling the "Big Dummy" controller I was hoping would get built. If your controller can handle more power than your batteries can dish out or your motor can take I think it is a perfect option!


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## Qer (May 7, 2008)

EVfun said:


> *CHICKEN*


Baaaawk!



EVfun said:


> Some day enough power silicon will be so affordable that current limits won't be needed. Still, they will likely be wanted to enforce some reasonable power limits and protect the copper.


Or something else will snap instead, like the transmission. We've already tried that in a Beetle with a "puny" 1kA-controller. 

I wonder at what current the driver will snap...?


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## bumblebee (Jan 29, 2011)

Batterypoweredtoad said:


> Ha! So someone is finally selling the "Big Dummy" controller I was hoping would get built. If your controller can handle more power than your batteries can dish out or your motor can take I think it is a perfect option!


did you get 12 months interst free financing with yours? i did


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## Inframan (Jan 30, 2011)

> I was racing against Cadillac STS on interstate 495 when my old controller's current limiter kicked in and he sailed passed me.... I didn't spend $2900 on a [name removed to protect controller company] controller to get my butt kicked by a 10-year-old Cadillac. But, like I said, if you REALLY, REALLY, want a amp limiter... add one. As for me, no thanks....


What battery pack and motor did you have in your conversion?


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## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

PZigouras said:


> If you really, really, really, want a current limiter that bad, you can always add one. But if you are like myself, and don't like to lose races, current limiters are not the way to go. I had one, I know.


So your controllers don't have current limiting, yet you sell them in different current ratings... Seems a bit paradoxical when put that way, doesn't it?




EVfun said:


> Some day enough power silicon will be so affordable that current limits won't be needed. Still, they will likely be wanted to enforce some reasonable power limits and protect the copper.


 It's not so much the expense as the sheer physical area needed to keep the current density reasonable. I mean, just the name "semiconductor" tells you right there that these devices don't conduct as well as, e.g., copper or aluminum.

For drag racing applications the more current (power) the better, as the throttle is almost treated as a binary input, but for other types of racing - you know, the kind that might involve turns and/or last for more than 10-15 seconds - to say nothing of everyday driving, the ability to control power delivery smoothly is awfully useful, but "smooth" isn't really possible if your accelerator pedal covers the range of 0-2000A or more in a couple inches of travel.




Batterypoweredtoad said:


> Ha! So someone is finally selling the "Big Dummy" controller I was hoping would get built. If your controller can handle more power than your batteries can dish out or your motor can take I think it is a perfect option!


Heh... It's not too difficult to get enough silicon together to withstand even the short circuit current of the typical EV pack (and with a modest amount of additional effort, even that of an A123 lithium or Hawker Genesis lead pack). Heck, the Soliton1 can take 7200A for far longer than the desaturation circuit needs to shut the IGBTs down safely. No, I don't worry so much about the peak current from the battery pack.... it's the capacitor(s) feeding the IGBTs that do the damage. The capacitor inside the Soliton1 has an ESR of 0.5 milliohms and this resistance is all that opposes the release of current should you short the f'ing thing. Charged up to 300V that gives a theoretical short circuit current of 600,000A. Yeah, 600kA. We'd need 167 of our IGBT modules just to withstand that long enough for desat to kick in...

THAT is why you need overcurrent protection.


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## ngrimm (Oct 19, 2007)

I assume they use fuses in industrial installations. Wouldn't that protect the motor and batteries to some extent?


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## Qer (May 7, 2008)

ngrimm said:


> I assume they use fuses in industrial installations. Wouldn't that protect the motor and batteries to some extent?


Yes, to some extent, but probably not protecting the controller. By the time the fuse has started to heat up and got to "Huh? I think there's something wrong here, maybe?" (spoken by the voice of Neil in The young ones) the transistors are likely already shot. Either they've melted to sludge that has dropped "semi" in "semiconductors" and the driver's already in a state of panic that will leave his finger prints deeply engraved into the steering wheel out of sheer force or the transistors have gone "boom" which makes the role of the fuse redundant and it can go back to sleep again.


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## EVfun (Mar 14, 2010)

Qer said:


> Yes, to some extent, but it probably protect the controller. By the time the fuse has started to heat up and got to "Huh? I think there's something wrong here, maybe?" (spoken by the voice of Neil in The young ones) the transistors are likely already shot. Either they've melted to sludge that has dropped "semi" in "semiconductors" and the driver's already in a state of panic that will leave his finger prints deeply engraved into the steering wheel out of sheer force or the transistors have gone "boom" which makes the role of the fuse redundant and it can go back to sleep again.


... Or some of this, "the transistors have gone 'boom'" but not nearly enough to prevent this, "the driver's already in a state of panic." I got into a pissing contest (almost literally) between a Curtis 1221b, a 250 amp fuse, and 10 Optimas. The fuse won, the Curtis lost, and the Optimas didn't seem to care. Beautiful description Qer. 

P.S. - Curtis Albright saved the day!


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## ngrimm (Oct 19, 2007)

What if as they say, the controller handles more power than the motor or batteries? They aren't worried about protecting it, just the motor and batteries.


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## Batterypoweredtoad (Feb 5, 2008)

As long as: your motor either breaks the tires loose or gets you well beyond the speed limit before it blows, the controller pushes the motor to that state without roasting, and the batteries can handle the demands of that much power everything should be fine. Dual warp11HV, big dummy controller, and about 40k worth of batteries should do the trick. 

...............but at that price point I think the price difference between the big dummy and the Big-Sol will not be a deterrent.


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## Qer (May 7, 2008)

ngrimm said:


> What if as they say, the controller handles more power than the motor or batteries? They aren't worried about protecting it, just the motor and batteries.


Well, what's your weakest link? If the controller can take it, can the batteries? There's a limit where the batteries will simply overheat, start cooking and die. And if the batteries can handle it, can the motor? Dual 11" will take a lot of abuse, but there's always a limit where they blow up. So, ok, if the motors ALSO can take it, will the transmission snap? And if the transmission survives, will the tires be able to keep the grip or will they just spin until they rip apart? And if you get good tires, will the actual car survive, or will it be warped until only 3 tires at the time reach the ground on a flat surface etc etc etc.

They say that power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely, but in this case I'd say that more power result in new problems to be solved and infinite power gives infinite problems to solve.


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## Salty9 (Jul 13, 2009)

You forgot to include axles. In my experience axles always broke first.


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## PZigouras (Jun 5, 2010)

It was a cheap 11-inch GE motor that was wound for 48V -- and I was feeding it from 2 banks of 12 lead STARTING batteries (144v), not deep cycles, so they motor was getting plenty of juice.... right up until the controller got too hot. I'm sure if I put all 24 batteries in series, the controller would have run a lot cooler (at half the current), but I don't think the windings on the motor would have been too happy with 6 times the recommended voltage on them...

Next, I'm going to try an EP-2000 with the same 144V and no limiter to see what happens... I also have a backup motor as well, so this may wind up being a learning experience 

- Paul





Inframan said:


> What battery pack and motor did you have in your conversion?
> 
> 
> I was racing against Cadillac STS on interstate 495 when my old controller's current limiter kicked in and he sailed passed me.... I didn't spend $2900 on a [name removed to protect controller company] controller to get my butt kicked by a 10-year-old Cadillac. But, like I said, if you REALLY, REALLY, want a amp limiter... add one. As for me, no thanks.... quote]


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## ngrimm (Oct 19, 2007)

I think that increasing power to the point of breaking things is part of the drag racing mentality. (Tim Taylor grunt) That's why we bolted twin turbos onto a stock sbc 350 engine in a Ford Ranger and went racing. Never broke anything that didn't need breaking and had a lots of fun. I concede that not having a current limiting controller would be like trying to control turbo boost without a boost controller and we all know that would be risky.


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## Huub3 (Aug 16, 2009)

Pete,

I have the same feeling. Out of curiosity I visited the site, and first thing I see is an electrolysis controller that is none, but just a Hitachi SJ700 VFD.

Funnily only the EV product link works. And this whereas the EV was presented as being only a small part of the business.

Be careful, and ask for substantial proof before committing.

Regards,


Huub

EDIT: just do a google search on "Paul Zigouras", and if that fails, have a look at http://members.shaw.ca/w.elliott/Club.html and look for this name. This page mentions creating 150 Hp through electrolysis of water with ca. 2200 W, overunity someone?




gottdi said:


> It actually sounds a bit fishy to me. The Site is not complete for a company that sells to the industry. The other products they say they sell are not accessible on the site and no real information. The sounds of the sales person sound like the site. Weak and sounds too good to be true. If these DC controllers were on the market I am quite sure this and other DIY electric car forums would have latched onto these long ago. From what I have read here is that there is really no product but a way to part you from your money.
> 
> This is way too good to be true. You really need to be carful. Sharks abound. Be carful. Research better before falling for the hype. Some thing like this if true could have all the bells and whistles put in for next to nothing. Plenty of smart computer people here.
> 
> ...


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## PZigouras (Jun 5, 2010)

Huub3 said:


> Pete,
> 
> 
> EDIT: just do a google search on "Paul Zigouras", and if that fails, have a look at http://members.shaw.ca/w.elliott/Club.html and look for this name. This page mentions creating 150 Hp through electrolysis of water with ca. 2200 W, overunity someone?



I'm not sure who this guy is, but his facts are off by a little.

It was 220,000 watts which is 308 horsepower (220kW=308hp) and since the engine was well under 50% efficiency, the flywheel horsepower was about 150. So nope, no overunity here. Darn.

- Paul


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

*It was 220,000 watts which is 308 horsepower (220kW=308hp) and since the engine was well under 50% efficiency, the flywheel horsepower was about 150. So nope, no overunity here. Darn.
*
Thats still 50% efficiency - the university guys are struggling to get 5% with that scenario

If the scientists can only get 5% and somebody claims 6% - thats possible 
50% ? - watch out for the aviating Sus scrofa


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## PZigouras (Jun 5, 2010)

Duncan said:


> *It was 220,000 watts which is 308 horsepower (220kW=308hp) and since the engine was well under 50% efficiency, the flywheel horsepower was about 150. So nope, no overunity here. Darn.
> *
> Thats still 50% efficiency - the university guys are struggling to get 5% with that scenario
> 
> ...



How can scientists only be getting 5% efficiency from an internal combustion engine, when the one in your garage is 27% efficient??? Engines running on hydrogen are typically more efficient than a diesel engine... around 45%.

If your engine is running at 5% efficiency, it may be time to put the car in the junk yard


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

Hi

The 5% is less than 10% for the electrolysis and less than 50% for the IC engine


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## PZigouras (Jun 5, 2010)

You might be thinking of something else... in high school science class, you may get about 5% efficiency during electrolysis, but in the real world, they are getting 60% to 90%. Some of the new industrial electrolyzers that are running in commercial ammonia-producing plants are cranking out 80%+ efficiency. Tyco industries claims to have a 92% unit. Our company is having a hard time just matching their numbers on large units like that... but it can be done.

It wasn't that long ago when people said that AC motors will never be more than 60% efficient.... and then when Baldor's Super-E series came out, people saw numbers as high as 96%. I put a 20hp Super-E in a car once, and with just a regular 15kw VFD, it got almost twice the range on the highway as the DC motor did. City driving went up about 30% as well, although acceleration was not quite as good as the DC motor was.


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

80%+ for the electrolyser x 30% (for the engine) is 24%

Still a long way off 50%


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## kek_63 (Apr 20, 2008)

PZigouras said:


> It wasn't that long ago when people said that AC motors will never be more than 60% efficient.... and then when Baldor's Super-E series came out, people saw numbers as high as 96%. I put a 20hp Super-E in a car once, and with just a regular 15kw VFD, it got almost twice the range on the highway as the DC motor did. City driving went up about 30% as well, although acceleration was not quite as good as the DC motor was.


Explain this to me - how does a 96% eficient AC motor get "almost twice the range" of an ~80% efficient DC motor in the same vehicle?

Keith


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## EVfun (Mar 14, 2010)

kek_63 said:


> Explain this to me - how does a 96% eficient AC motor get "almost twice the range" of an ~80% efficient DC motor in the same vehicle?
> 
> Keith


Well see, you turn the regen on while driving and it works just like putting a generator on the wheel.


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## Guest (Feb 17, 2011)

EVfun said:


> Well see, you turn the regen on while driving and it works just like putting a generator on the wheel.


ROFL


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## PZigouras (Jun 5, 2010)

kek_63 said:


> Explain this to me - how does a 96% eficient AC motor get "almost twice the range" of an ~80% efficient DC motor in the same vehicle?
> 
> Keith



I know my ADC motor was not running at 80% efficiency -- you could cook an egg, along with some bacon on it after you got off the highway with it.

Although, there's one thing that I forgot to mention.... I was only running 96V on my ADC, because all three banks were in parallel. On the 3-phase inverter, I put all three of the battery banks in series, so I had almost 300V. That probably accounted for a lot of the gain too. Running 1/3rd of the current DOES tend to make things run cooler! 

- Paul


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## Qer (May 7, 2008)

PZigouras said:


> I know my ADC motor was not running at 80% efficiency -- you could cook an egg, along with some bacon on it after you got off the highway with it.


It's not uncommon for an EV to use something like 10 kW to run at useful speeds. At highway speeds that's probably even higher so even at 80% efficiency you'll get more than 2 kW losses that will turn into heat.

Yes, of course you can cook an egg on >2 kW. You can do that at a few hundred Watts of heat even...



PZigouras said:


> Although, there's one thing that I forgot to mention.... I was only running 96V on my ADC, because all three banks were in parallel. On the 3-phase inverter, I put all three of the battery banks in series, so I had almost 300V. That probably accounted for a lot of the gain too. Running 1/3rd of the current DOES tend to make things run cooler!


Get a real controller that can limit motor voltage in the user settings. Problem solved.


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## Citystromer (May 2, 2009)

Hi, I just saw one EP1000 for sale in ebay, I have a VW golf2 with dc motor, I shut Kellystwice 400V 400A, and one IGBT 6ooV 600A, I`m sure it was because of transient voltages, spikes comming from the collector of this old motor. How does the rugged EPC handle transients? Would you bet it would not blow if I put it on this engine? And who could repair it? Are therescematics? Are there ycontrollers inside?
Thanks for any answer.


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## PZigouras (Jun 5, 2010)

The late-model EP-1000 controllers use three 600-amp IGBT modules, so you would have to put an incredible load on them to kill it. Unless you have an 8000-pound VW, I wouldn't worry about it....


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## Batterypoweredtoad (Feb 5, 2008)

PZigouras said:


> The late-model EP-1000 controllers use three 600-amp IGBT modules, so you would have to put an incredible load on them to kill it. Unless you have an 8000-pound VW, I wouldn't worry about it....


PZ-Have you filmed this controller actually powering a car yet? I would like to see it in action.


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## PZigouras (Jun 5, 2010)

Batterypoweredtoad said:


> PZ-Have you filmed this controller actually powering a car yet? I would like to see it in action.


The company hasn't made any videos that I know of... but I'm sure our dealers have some out there on Youtube. 

I can probably video the one in my car, but there's nothing really special about it.... it acts just like a regular DC controller....


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## NZero (Jan 30, 2010)

PZigouras said:


> The company hasn't made any videos that I know of... but I'm sure our dealers have some out there on Youtube.
> 
> I can probably video the one in my car, but there's nothing really special about it.... it acts just like a regular DC controller....


I think they are more after proof it can go over a few bumps without going pop. And that it can deliver enough power to a vehicle, in particular the vehicle you mentioned earlier. 
People on these forums are more of the "guilty until proven innocent" mentality. The soliton1, Kelly and Curtis went through the same thing. Until people saw them in use no one wanted to know about them. I still have the odd struggle with Kelly controllers with people unsure about them.

The thing here is, for most countries you need lots of safety's in your metal box and your controller doesn't have any. There's no current limit, fault shut down, high pedal disable etc which means no one is even going to look at it coz a bit of dirt on the throttle will send them into the nearest obstacle. Sorry bud.


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## Batterypoweredtoad (Feb 5, 2008)

If the controller can truly deliver as much power as your pack can deliver than it is not the same as any other controller out there. A controller that can do that without roasting combined with a motor that can handle the massive amps at low RPM would be spectacular, not just a cheaper alternative. It would actually give you the nearly flat power curve that the world thinks electrics give you. Direct drive with warP11HV would be amusing . Of course all of this is speculation until someone proves it can actually happen. Right now all the searching power of google can show me is one web page selling them, and the guy who put up that web page (PZigouras) talking about them on this forum. No build diaries, no happy or angry purchasers, not a single solitary word about them.


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## Guest (Jun 8, 2011)

> No build diaries, no happy or angry purchasers, not a single solitary word about them.


Because it is more BS than any thing else. No video, no proof only talk. All talk and no go. That is why you don't see a damn thing.


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## PZigouras (Jun 5, 2010)

Batterypoweredtoad said:


> If the controller can truly deliver as much power as your pack can deliver than it is not the same as any other controller out there. A controller that can do that without roasting combined with a motor that can handle the massive amps at low RPM would be spectacular, not just a cheaper alternative.


With three 600-amp IGBT modules in the EP-1000, and six of them in the EP-2000, I don't think that going over bumps and hills are ever going to be a problem. To test it, you can always hook up a 25-foot boat to your EV an pull it with an EP-1000. If it does blow (which it shouldn't), you can alway send it back for the no-fault warranty. And then downgrade to a 19-foot boat.

If I remember correctly, one of our customers told us that our each one of our 600-amp modules can handle about six times the power of a typical Kelly controller. Ouch.


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## Ziggythewiz (May 16, 2010)

PZigouras said:


> With three 600-amp IGBT modules in the EP-1000, and six of them in the EP-2000, I don't think that going over bumps and hills are ever going to be a problem. To test it, you can always hook up a 25-foot boat to your EV an pull it with an EP-1000. If it does blow (which it shouldn't), you can alway send it back for the no-fault warranty. And then downgrade to a 19-foot boat.
> 
> If I remember correctly, one of our customers told us that our each one of our 600-amp modules can handle about six times the power of a typical Kelly controller. Ouch.


Hills and boats are no test for bump resistance. The question is whether a supposedly reliable industrial controller can handle mobile operation.

Also, if your technical specifications come from customers, rather than from the manufacturer having a clue what they're building, that's a problem.


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## PZigouras (Jun 5, 2010)

I didn't say that our technical specifications come from customers; our technical specifications come from our technicians. The EP-1000 is rated for 1000 amps nominal; the EP-2000 is rated for double that -- those are OUR rating, not our customer's.

I was merely stating that one of our customers was amazed that we use such a powerful IGBT in such an economically priced controller. That's all I was stating; nothing more, nothing less.


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## JRoque (Mar 9, 2010)

Hey Paul! How's everything? I've been doing some looking around for background on this controller you mention here. Some things... well, a whole lot of things don't sound right to me. Please comment if you can and set me straight.

On post #8 you say EPC is not targeting the EV market yet the product page has "Electric Vehicle Controllers" including, curiously enough, an EPC Junior that some might say it's likened to the Soliton Junior's name. Just an observation.

On post #3, you say your controllers have 4 and 8 "massive IGBTs". On post #65, they have 3 and 6 switches. Ok so you forgot to read your own post... it happens

On the same post #3, you say you're the sales guy for EPC and just above you mention "technicians".
You are listed as the owner/president for Zigouras Engineering who's linked to Brockton Energy who's linked to Zigouras Racing who's linked to Enterprise Power Conversion Technologies. I can only find 2 employees associated with your companies: Paul and Pam. http://www.corporationwiki.com/Massachusetts/Brockton/zigouras-racing-inc/50841011.aspx http://www.myspace.com/zigouras. Wife?

You also had an almost-there x-prize contest vehicle for sale on eBay with an obscure list of "modifications" that made a 1996 LeBaron achieve 50 MPG efficiency: http://www.wired.com/autopia/2009/02/ex-x-prize-leba/

You also made an "electrolyzer" box that neither oil companies or the Federal Gov wanted us to have and for which you received $6M to keep it quiet. You were selling one of these on eBay before the oil company bought you out to keep the invention a secret. http://www.panacea-bocaf.org/paulzigouras.htm

I'll stop here because the mothball keeps unraveling and it looks I could be days digging up stuff that fly in the face of common sense.

Looking forward to your clarification.

JR


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## Guest (Jun 9, 2011)

Wow, what a slam dunk. Glad to see the information revealed. My previous post mentioned BS. Yup. BS. Love it. Can't hide to well in the web. Open to the public.


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## Guest (Jun 9, 2011)

Yup, a whole lot of not right.


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## NZero (Jan 30, 2010)

Paul its not looking good mate.

Heres where we go from here. No more talk, I think the hole is big enough. Take a lot of photos of your controller, inside, outside, installed, running etc.

Tell us where stocks your product and where or who have purchased and installed some. 
Even then, you still have no safety elves or fairys in your metal box which renders it 110% useless for EV use. 
Why would I risk my battery pack, motor and most of all my life as I turn on the vehicle only to have the pot misadjusted or an IGBT fault and send me racing into the lamppost by my driveway? It doesn't make any sense and you don't have a useable product. 
Sorry for the bad news, but maybe some photos will at least give some people here hope that these actually exist.


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## PZigouras (Jun 5, 2010)

JR,

Zigouras Engineering was linked to Zigouras Racing until 2003, when they became separate companies (I was only the president of Zigouras Racing). Neither company is, or ever was linked to Enterprise Power Conversion Technologiesm which is a separate company, founded in 2010. Brockton Energy merged with Zigouras Engineering in 2006, which still has nothing to do with EPC Corp. Please check your facts before you start linking companies.

Also, if you can "only find 2 employees" in our company, then you apparently have not called, written, or met anyone in our company. This "Pam" you are referring to left Zigouras Racing in 1999 to work for Boeing, and has never worked for EPC Corp. Again, please check your "facts" before stating them... it will save everyone a lot of time.

Oh yes, and my wife's name is not "Pam" either -- I have no clue where you got that bit of information from either. If you want REAL personal information about me, or anyone else who works for this company, please call us before you make up and false information. We will be more than happy to talk to you.

Also, as everyone already knows (except maybe for you), both the EP-1000 and EP-2000 were changed from 400-amp IGBT modules, to 600-amp. This is all public information, and all our dealers are fully aware of the changes.

Lastly, it's not a good idea to believe everything you read on the internet. I would go for first-hand information, if I were you.

Still, I may google your name, just to see what comes up..... hmm... "JR"


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## PZigouras (Jun 5, 2010)

NZero said:


> Paul its not looking good mate.
> 
> Heres where we go from here. No more talk, I think the hole is big enough. Take a lot of photos of your controller, inside, outside, installed, running etc.
> 
> ...


I'm not worried about it at all....

Out of almost 200 sales, we've only gotten three complaints so far. 

And most of the "complaints" on this message board are from people who have never seen one, much less tried one. The people who have actually tried our controllers don't seem to have any complaints, and that's the only thing we really care about.


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

PZigouras said:


> Also, as everyone already knows (except maybe for you), both the EP-1000 and EP-2000 were changed from 400-amp IGBT modules, to 600-amp. This is all public information, and all our dealers are fully aware of the changes.


Where was this public information published? And please provide a list of all your dealers. The web site does not provide any of this. Thanks.


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## PZigouras (Jun 5, 2010)

Any changes/updates to our controllers, owner's manuals, or other products are sent via email to all our installers and dealers. We also have a seperate email list for customers who want product updates and info.

If you would like to be added to the customer email list, please email me at: [email protected]

That way, anytime the specifications change, you will be notified.


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## Batterypoweredtoad (Feb 5, 2008)

If you have 200 sales it seems like it should be pretty easy to document an install, video a test drive, publish some customer feedback, have ANY sort of web presence, etc...


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## Guest (Jun 9, 2011)

Why not post it to the forum. Since your trying to sell to us it makes perfect sense to provide all the information rather than empty sales pitches.

Pete


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## PZigouras (Jun 5, 2010)

Batterypoweredtoad said:


> If you have 200 sales it seems like it should be pretty easy to document an install, video a test drive, publish some customer feedback, have ANY sort of web presence, etc...


That's a great idea! 

I want everyone who owns, or has driven a car with any EPC controller, to post how they feel about it on a new thread. Local customers can post as well.

Oh yes, and this is mandatory.


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## Guest (Jun 9, 2011)

I would not expect any customers to do a damn thing. We want you to do an install. Test and provide disclosure of your product. In other words provide full specs and how to install the controller properly. All other companies do this but since you are not willing to do this the we call you on the BS.


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## PZigouras (Jun 5, 2010)

gottdi said:


> In other words provide full specs and how to install the controller properly. All other companies do this but since you are not willing to do this the we call you on the BS.


If you BOTHERED to read the INSTRUCTION MANUAL that CAME with your controller, you would understand EXACTLY how to install it. The specifications are also listed in the manual. Dah!


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## Guest (Jun 9, 2011)

I need to look at the information before I buy so your comment is BS. I need the information to make a knowledgeable decision. Yours or theirs? Theirs is taking first place as they are not being ............... and I can ask all sorts of questions and get the answers and I can go freely download the install manual, the instruction manual, spec sheets and all sorts of goodies that will help me make an educated decision. 

Your not helping your cause one bit.


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## Guest (Jun 9, 2011)

OH! I forgot I must first blindly accept your word about the controller send you my money and hope it arrives then I get the manual and how to install it. I guess it is not public knowledge. Guess you don't make a sale


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## Guest (Jun 9, 2011)

Hey, guys, lets go out and buy these instead of the Soliton1's or Zilla's. These guys have the market cornered. Low cost and hi power. Just drop it in and your good to go.


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## 9852 (Jan 17, 2010)

that thing looks huge, if it did work where would you put it?


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## NZero (Jan 30, 2010)

PZigouras said:


> That's a great idea!
> 
> I want everyone who owns, or has driven a car with any EPC controller, to post how they feel about it on a new thread. Local customers can post as well.
> 
> Oh yes, and this is mandatory.


Watching the tumble weeds.

Look your the salesman, if you want to sell here prove you have something useable.

I call you a lair because there is no result in the garage, forum, google or anywhere where someone mentions using your product. And again without any safety features I dont see even the maddest of ev'ers installing one.

But hey, you don't care because your milking sales so....

How hard is it to give us a video? Pictures? Real life contact information for 3 or 4 of your 200 plus customers?
Your a crook, we give you every chance to explain a few things and you put down the shovel and reeach for your front end loader.

EPC = Experimental Pretentious Crap.

Stop the lies, we have heard quite enough


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## NZero (Jan 30, 2010)

lol, Paul has vanished. Buyer beware huh


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## Guest (Jun 11, 2011)

Trolls don't stick around when the food is sour or rotten or just gone. I think we soured the milk. Hope its enough. I know he is still lurking but will soon be gone.


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## NZero (Jan 30, 2010)

gottdi said:


> Trolls don't stick around when the food is sour or rotten or just gone. I think we soured the milk. Hope its enough. I know he is still lurking but will soon be gone.


Troll hunters assemble. Spears at the ready, I see Paul has now taken to Ebay to sell second hand metal boxes. Now on top of not having any safety features, it doesn't even have capacitors!!! I could sell something similar for $100 brand new. Its a 555 timer with some IGBTs tapped on the side. oh and no doubt some pretty leds to let you know the power is on lol


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## Guest (Jun 11, 2011)

Link please!


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## Roy Von Rogers (Mar 21, 2009)

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Used...ptZMotorsQ5fCarQ5fTruckQ5fPartsQ5fAccessories

Roy


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## Ziggythewiz (May 16, 2010)

Well, he does have 100% positive feedback...


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## NZero (Jan 30, 2010)

Ziggythewiz said:


> Well, he does have 100% positive feedback...


AND it was for a purchase not a sale hahahahahahahaha. 

The thing is we gave him every chance to give us something, not even a full meal but a nibble by posting a picture or video or something but he didn't take it.


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## PZigouras (Jun 5, 2010)

NZero said:


> lol, Paul has vanished. Buyer beware huh


No, I haven't vanished... still here. I just don't bother to reply to people who have no clue what they are talking about.


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## PZigouras (Jun 5, 2010)

NZero said:


> AND it was for a purchase not a sale hahahahahahahaha.
> 
> The thing is we gave him every chance to give us something, not even a full meal but a nibble by posting a picture or video or something but he didn't take it.



Fine. Here's some pictures of some local installations. Maybe now you can sleep at night... hahaha!


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## 9852 (Jan 17, 2010)

well, those arnt bad looking installations, if they work, you need to understand that most people here lived through the ev components fiasco, so they are rightfully gun shy, and you were kinda vauge on your info, when if you go to any other website you can read about their controllers.
just my .02


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## NZero (Jan 30, 2010)

See thanks, now at least we see that your product exists. 

Now I do owe you a small apology. I was rather harsh but to be honest there were a ton of things that didn't add up. However I would like you to address one issue if you may?
What safety measures are currently in place? What are looking to be put into place?
It would be the equivalent to me selling you an all metal light switch and a rubber glove. So long as you remember to always use the glove, and you have faith that the glove will work each and every time you'll be ok. Consider it feedback that you can take back to the R&D department. I wouldn't buy a car with no ABS or a DC Dynamic motor controller with no safety build into the hardware or firmware. Just my 2 cents. Still friends?


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## PZigouras (Jun 5, 2010)

Next to reliability, I think safety is a major issue with any car part -- especially the controller.

I'm going to start a new thread on controller safety to get more ideas and feedback from people. This is something we should all discuss, because 90% of the people on here are running DC motors, which love to run away when something goes wrong.


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## Guest (Jun 12, 2011)

> I just don't bother to reply to people who have no clue what they are talking about.


Problem is that we DO know what we are talking about and if you don't play we will bash you as you already know. Don't take it personal but if you have a product you do need to provide all the information needed. Take for instance the need for caps. How the hell does one know what kind to use, how many, and most important how to integrate it so the controller will know? How does it shut off in case of any fault that could cause a major problem? It really needs to be safe for the street and even on the track. You got pissed when we asked and we just slammed you hard. Go ahead and get pissy but don't expect warm welcomes either. Usually you do get what you give. 

Good, there is now ONE example. Any others? Any references we can contact? You know, you can contact them and ask them and I am sure they'd be just fine with telling their experiences. 

Remember I can read the user manuals and installation manuals for any and all available controllers on the market except yours. They are public knowledge and available and easy to attain. Don't hide behind rocks and expect us to follow.

Pete


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## rochesterricer (Jan 5, 2011)

You mentioned there was a current limiter module you can add on to these controllers. What kind of other modules are available for them?


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## 9852 (Jan 17, 2010)

Good, there is now ONE example. Any others? Any references we can contact? You know, you can contact them and ask them and I am sure they'd be just fine with telling their experiences. 




to be fair, it looks like 2 examples, but you cant see much of either one.
testimonials would be nice though.


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## PZigouras (Jun 5, 2010)

rochesterricer said:


> You mentioned there was a current limiter module you can add on to these controllers. What kind of other modules are available for them?


There is a Field Control Module available for running separately excited DC motors on the EP-1000 -- this is the most popular add-on.

There is also a complete list of optional modules on page 9 of the EP-1000 owner's manual. If you would like a PDF copy, feel free to email [email protected] and request one.

- Paul


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## Batterypoweredtoad (Feb 5, 2008)

Paul, If your controller is for real, you have a potentially spectacular product. A powerful controller for Sep-Ex would be a breakthrough. You are loosing so much potential business by providing such piss poor information about your product.


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## PZigouras (Jun 5, 2010)

Batterypoweredtoad said:


> Paul, If your controller is for real, you have a potentially spectacular product. A powerful controller for Sep-Ex would be a breakthrough. You are loosing so much potential business by providing such piss poor information about your product.


I know... I really wish our dealers and installers would push the product more... I've seen very little advertising done by any of our dealers, and some haven't even listed it on their sites yet. One of our conversion shops advertised in the local paper... and they sell quite a few of them.

Although I think part of the problem is that most of our online resellers only sell golfcart controllers (not EV controllers) so the EP-1000 would be way out of their average user's price range.

One of the reasons our products have such a low MSRP is because we rely on the dealers and installers to do 95% of our advertising (our ad budget is only a few thousand $$$ per year). All we do is direct mailings, and that's mostly to dealers.

I think I am going to recommend that the company start at least a small ad campaign... online advertising is the way to go now-a-days.


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## Guest (Jun 14, 2011)

Well the product is not for vehicles anyway. It requires too many add on items to even be reasonable. None of which are public knowledge and I nor any one else should have to send emails to ask for the products specs and it really is a product for industrial stationary motors. If you want this as a vehicle product you need to refine it and build it as a single unit with zero add on items and show and prove it has some potential. Like I said before. You can't expect folks to follow when the product is hidden behind rocks. It is not a viable controller for the market at this time. Period. 

Buyer beware. 

Pete


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## Batterypoweredtoad (Feb 5, 2008)

gottdi said:


> Well the product is not for vehicles anyway. It requires too many add on items to even be reasonable. None of which are public knowledge and I nor any one else should have to send emails to ask for the products specs and it really is a product for industrial stationary motors. If you want this as a vehicle product you need to refine it and build it as a single unit with zero add on items and show and prove it has some potential. Like I said before. You can't expect folks to follow when the product is hidden behind rocks. It is not a viable controller for the market at this time. Period.
> 
> Buyer beware.
> 
> Pete


All in one and well documented like the Zilla?  (sorry, couldn't resist)


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## Guest (Jun 14, 2011)

More like the Soliton1. Hell the zilla is better documented and it is pretty much an all in one controller. I am not talking about contactors or things like that but caps and computer input and safety and being configurable to suit the needs of the person. I know Kelly is better documented and pretty much as all the needed components installed to properly operate safely. I know curtis, alltrac, and an assortment of others. Sure the zilla needs a hair ball but it is mostly a place to connect the wires. No big deal there. 

There are old controllers that you can't buy any more that are better documented. 

At least the noted controllers have been tested and proven. The Zilla is killer. To sell you need to put one in your own vehicle and document and video and push the hell out of it to prove it can do what you say. If you don't your just hot air. Or hiding behind rocks and expect us to follow. There are too many other proven controller on the market to even think about buying something like this. 

Now if he offered a super low cost BETA that I could put in a vehicle and thrash the hell out of then it would be real good for the company or real bad. I'd like to put one in a race buggy but if I must buy add on crap I will not want to bother. If the add on components are included then maybe but the beta must be real cheap and I will put it through the grinder like no tomorrow. I will bust it. I will push it so hard it will smoke but we will know the limits. That is what folks need to know. What are the absolute limits before it smokes. Then stay out of that zone to be safe. If it takes me down the track with 2000 or 3000 amps with out smoking over and over and over then maybe it will be good. A cooling fan should be included. I would not us it with out one. 

Pete


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## NZero (Jan 30, 2010)

PZigouras said:


> I know... I really wish our dealers and installers would push the product more... I've seen very little advertising done by any of our dealers, and some haven't even listed it on their sites yet....
> 
> Although I think part of the problem is that most of our online resellers only sell golfcart controllers (not EV controllers) so the EP-1000 would be way out of their average user's price range....
> 
> I think I am going to recommend that the company start at least a small ad campaign... online advertising is the way to go now-a-days.


1, no you need to talk to us, get your story straight and start proving something works.

2, I think the problem is that your product is unusable

3, I would love to be able to call your company and speak to someone other than yourself.


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## PZigouras (Jun 5, 2010)

gottdi said:


> Well the product is not for vehicles anyway. It requires too many add on items to even be reasonable. None of which are public knowledge and I nor any one else should have to send emails to ask for the products specs and it really is a product for industrial stationary motors. If you want this as a vehicle product you need to refine it and build it as a single unit with zero add on items and show and prove it has some potential. Like I said before. You can't expect folks to follow when the product is hidden behind rocks. It is not a viable controller for the market at this time. Period.
> 
> Buyer beware.
> 
> Pete


It it were "not viable", then all these people (including myself), would not be driving on one.

And our upcoming version will offer even more built in accessories... such as dual 400-amp contactors, shunt for amp meter, and gauge outputs. The price will be higher than the current EP-1000, but it greatly simplifies installation.


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## PZigouras (Jun 5, 2010)

NZero said:


> 1, no you need to talk to us, get your story straight and start proving something works.
> 
> 2, I think the problem is that your product is unusable
> 
> 3, I would love to be able to call your company and speak to someone other than yourself.



1) If it were unusable, I would not be driving it every day (dah!)

2) You are free to talk to ANYONE in the company you would like to, not just myself.  I do answer the phones (it's my job), but I will be MORE than happy to transfer you to anyone you want. Just ask.

All you have to do is pick up the phone, dial 508-923-9503, and tell me who you want to speak to. We're not Logisystems -- we are more than happy to answer serious phone calls. We even talk to telemarketers...


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## Guest (Jun 15, 2011)

PZigouras,

No install photos of YOUR vehicle yet? 
You keep saying to call. Damn it, we are asking here. Screw calling. 
You brought this here so YOU get to show and tell. 
SHOW & TELL is where its at on this site. So SHOW and TELL. Not just TELL. 

I think we'd all just love to see your installation and a video of your vehicle running your controller. We are your hardest sell but also your greatest ally if your product is on the up and up and performs to what you claim. It must be proven to perform. Not just stupid words. Take it to the track and put it through it's paces. Build a nice box for your controller rather than an electrical box painted white with EPC painted on. Looks tacky. Your words mean squat here. 

Again, don't take it personal but you really need to prove your product. It is not up to US to prove your product. You prove and you will sell some. Or should I say some more. I'd love to hear from anyone else who has put one in their vehicle. 

Can you say it will survive in a full out 1/4 mile run? Can I have one to try out? Can I have one to video the results? Does the controller allow me to connect to my computer and log the results? 

Until these are proven they are not viable and if the product is not available yet it is not viable. 

It is possible to have a non viable product in your vehicle. It's called a prototype. 

I will beta test your prototypes so others can see the results and make educated decisions. I am quite the neutral party so it would be a real good idea to do so. 

If not then no problem. You will keep all your EPC controllers and continue to hide behind rocks and not be forthright about the product. Get it ready, test it then provide proof and then start selling if the product really stands. If it does not hold up to what you say it is fine too. It is better to test and find out its crap than to sell a bunch then find out the other way it's crap and get your pants sued.


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## ElectriCar (Jun 15, 2008)

gottdi said:


> PZigouras,
> 
> No install photos of YOUR vehicle yet?
> You keep saying to call. Damn it, we are asking here. Screw calling.
> ...


Did you not see his photo's on page 10, post 94?


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## Guest (Jun 15, 2011)

Those are not his according to the post. I want to see his and I want to see his in action.


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## ElectriCar (Jun 15, 2008)

PZigouras said:


> 1) If it were unusable, I would not be driving it every day (dah!)
> 
> 2) You are free to talk to ANYONE in the company you would like to, not just myself. I do answer the phones (it's my job), but I will be MORE than happy to transfer you to anyone you want. Just ask.
> 
> All you have to do is pick up the phone, dial 508-923-9503, and tell me who you want to speak to. We're not Logisystems -- we are more than happy to answer serious phone calls. We even talk to telemarketers...


Do you not have a USA toll free number like most companies? 

And you've yet to answer the numerous questions about where they can be purchased. 

I just purchased two 125HP drives and motors for an industrial customer last week to the tune of $31,000. Today he tells me he needs two soft start drives for a 100HP motor. And their process means wet location rated gear is very much desirable. We have been buying Baldor, WEG and Benshaw products. But one can't buy what one can't purchase.


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## NZero (Jan 30, 2010)

Ok theres a question he has dodged and dodged so I'm going to curve it the other way.

What are you selling here?
Its not a controller because it doesn't "Control" ANYTHING
Its not what is comparable to other controllers on price OR performance because for me to put that in my own car I have to build in safety systems and input/output drivers.
To me it is a box which changes motor speed relative to an input but its not a complete solution to anything.

I would feel very ripped off putting essentially a large variac in my vehicle after being told it is a controller which it is not.

Please set me straight here.


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## PZigouras (Jun 5, 2010)

ElectriCar said:


> Do you not have a USA toll free number like most companies?
> 
> And you've yet to answer the numerous questions about where they can be purchased.
> 
> I just purchased two 125HP drives and motors for an industrial customer last week to the tune of $31,000. Today he tells me he needs two soft start drives for a 100HP motor. And their process means wet location rated gear is very much desirable. We have been buying Baldor, WEG and Benshaw products. But one can't buy what one can't purchase.


We do not have a soft-start drive available for that size motor.

We do have wet location enclosures for the contactor array, capacitor bank, and potentiometer. All our enclosures can be submersed intermittently.

We work closely with Baldor, and they do have a soft-start 90kW controller. If you want, we should be able to purchase one and install it in one of our wet-location enclosures, such as the enclosure we use for the EP-2000. I will have a technician call you to see if this is feasible.

- Paul


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## Guest (Jun 17, 2011)

Wow, Still skirting the questions.


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## PZigouras (Jun 5, 2010)

NZero said:


> Ok theres a question he has dodged and dodged so I'm going to curve it the other way.
> 
> What are you selling here?
> Its not a controller because it doesn't "Control" ANYTHING
> ...



I would disagree with you on this; Our controllers are a very good value for the money. The EPjr will handle up to 1200 amps for $899, while the Curtis 1231 $1400) will shut down before it even gets close to that mark. 

As far as safety goes, our controllers have some of the best safety features available on the market today. Most of them are optional, but ALL of them are plug-and-play, and economically priced. For most of our dealers, our products cut down the build time of a typical EV by several days. All our controllers, contactor boxes, chargers, and capacitor banks are plug-and-play. This includes all the safety devices, such as current limiting modules and breaker attachments.

To make things even safer, all our enclosure are 100% waterproof, as are the connections. I will upload some pictures of the two boats that we are currently working on. One is a 20-foot, the other is a 24-foot. Our marine systems are essentially the same as our car systems, and handle up to 240 volts while completely submersed, with no danger of voltage leakage. All our conduits are double sealed, so even if the conduit is punctured and water enters, the system will not leak voltage.


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## Guest (Jun 17, 2011)

After all the ADD on Garbage I'd need to buy and have connected properly I'd still not have a controller as good as the Soliton1 or Zilla. With all the add on stuff I am quite sure the price will exceed any of the Zilla controllers and the Soliton1.


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## Guest (Jun 17, 2011)

I want photos of YOUR vehicle.


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## PZigouras (Jun 5, 2010)

gottdi said:


> After all the ADD on Garbage I'd need to buy and have connected properly I'd still not have a controller as good as the Soliton1 or Zilla. With all the add on stuff I am quite sure the price will exceed any of the Zilla controllers and the Soliton1.


Actually, a typical EP-1000 with all the options (including an attached, waterproof potentiometer) is still almost $1000 less than a comparable Soliton 1. The difference is that our controllers come with a one year, no fault warranty -- no other controller in the world offers that.

In addition, the EP-1000 is 100% water proof, and comes with provisions for a sealed, flexible conduit. Not many other controllers on the market offer this.


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## Guest (Jun 17, 2011)

Then by all means do a show and tell with your setup. Photos, video and all that. If you fail that then your words mean nothing. I can claim all sorts of things to get someone to buy but if I don't prove what I say is real then it is worthless banter. 

Are you going to continue with the banter or are you going to bring this to fruition and provide a product that will blow the competition out of the water as you state?


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## evimarn (Jun 26, 2008)

Are we back from summer holidays? or is it me day dreaming???
keep it up guys.


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## NZero (Jan 30, 2010)

I think Paul has sunk his ship and tied himself to it. That was the quickest product launch and fail I've ever seen


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## evimarn (Jun 26, 2008)

Guess we gotta do a search team now,or else forget about the 1ka unit hehe.


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## PZigouras (Jun 5, 2010)

NZero said:


> I think Paul has sunk his ship and tied himself to it. That was the quickest product launch and fail I've ever seen


I'm not exactly sure what you mean by "fail"... we build more controllers per week than any other manufacturer (except maybe Curtis), and we also have the lowest failure rate.

On top of that, we are the only manufacturer that offers a one year, no-fault warranty on all our controllers. Not even EVnetics offers that!


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## frodus (Apr 12, 2008)

PZigouras said:


> I'm not exactly sure what you mean by "fail"... we build more controllers per week than any other manufacturer (except maybe Curtis), and we also have the lowest failure rate.


Bold claims! How exactly do you quantify that?

So where are these controllers? I mean, surely, since they're in such high demand, they're installed in jobs where we could see them......


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## kek_63 (Apr 20, 2008)

Paul,

I find it interesting that EVolve Electrics is listed as a dealer on your website, and yet they don't list any EPC products on theirs. In fact none of the legitimate businesses listed as dealers appear to carry your products. 

On a side note - are you the Paul Zigouras that some claim was paid $6mil for his HHO technology?


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## PZigouras (Jun 5, 2010)

frodus said:


> Bold claims! How exactly do you quantify that?
> 
> So where are these controllers? I mean, surely, since they're in such high demand, they're installed in jobs where we could see them......


How do we quantify that we build controllers everyday? Well, let's see...


First off, we go to work 5 days a week, 40+ hours a week, which means something must be happening here, otherwise everyone would just stay home. And sleep.

Secondly, we get about 20 tech support calls a day, which means SOMEONE must have SOMETHING of ours, otherwise they would not have any questions about it.

Thirdly, there are plenty of people who drive to work each day with our controllers (on the highway). You can check out www.evAlbum.com to see a few of them...

And lastly, we just started our own YouTube channel (http://www.youtube.com/user/EPCcorp) which we will be posting any videos our customers send us, with their permission. Feel free to send us your videos, we'll be happy to post them!


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## PZigouras (Jun 5, 2010)

kek_63 said:


> Paul,
> 
> I find it interesting that EVolve Electrics is listed as a dealer on your website, and yet they don't list any EPC products on theirs. In fact none of the legitimate businesses listed as dealers appear to carry your products.
> 
> On a side note - are you the Paul Zigouras that some claim was paid $6mil for his HHO technology?


You can order almost any of our products from any of the dealers listed on our dealers page. You can also order our parts from some EV conversion shops. Some dealers only carry certain items, but all of them help keep us in business, since we don't sell directly to the public. Our dealers are our only sales outlet, and we treat them well. They are all reputable companies (as far as we know -- please correct me if I'm wrong), and I would not think twice before calling any one of them.

On the side note, unfortunately, no one paid me $6 million for 
the HHO technology. The technology was owned by Zigouras Engineering, Inc., and not me personally, so it was not mine to sell 

On a related note, I did own two buildings in Brockon that sold for a considerable amount of money. The sale was published in the local paper, so I'm sure that some got the wrong impression about something. Alcohol may also have been involved


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## frodus (Apr 12, 2008)

PZigouras said:


> How do we quantify that we build controllers everyday? blah blah blah blah blah


That's not what I asked, maybe I can rephrase your quote, so you can understand a little bit better....


> we build more controllers per week than any other manufacturer (except maybe Curtis), and we also have the lowest failure rate.


How do you know you build more than any other manufacturer per week? 

How do you know you have the lowest failure rate than any other controller manufacturer out there?

How do you prove these claims?


Notice that I didn't ask how much work you guys do, or how many hours you work, or how many people call you. I asked you how you can prove your bold claims that you build more than anyone else and have the lowest failure rate. 

And as far as the number of builds, still waiting.... I only see you on evalbum:
http://evalbum.com/cntrl/EPCV

Can you show us more builds with the controller in it? Even your build doesn't have a picture of the actual controller in it.


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## EVfun (Mar 14, 2010)

PZigouras said:


> Thirdly, there are plenty of people who drive to work each day with our controllers (on the highway). You can check out www.evAlbum.com to see a few of them...


Could you please point out where they are hiding on the EValbum? Here is a search by controller brand.


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## PZigouras (Jun 5, 2010)

I''m not sure exactly how we would PROVE we have the lowest failure rate, but so far, they've passed every torture test that we could put them through -- up to and including dead shorts.

Honestly, I feel that any controller that can handle this much power, with this much reliability, at this pricing level, is a strong competitor. And no one else offers a 1 megawatt controller for under $3000, like the EP-2000 -- this I know for a fact.

If you don't like our ideas, then please, don't buy our controllers. As for me, I won't put anything in my car that doesn't have the EPC logo on it.


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## frodus (Apr 12, 2008)

> I''m not sure exactly how we would PROVE we have the lowest failure rate


Exactly! Bold claims that you can't back up! now you may have a great product, that's not the point. The point is, you can't say that you build more than any other controller manufacturer (besides curtis) and that you have the lowest failure rate.....

You forgot to answer this:



frodus said:


> How do you know you build more than any other manufacturer per week?


 




> And as far as the number of builds, still waiting.... I only see you on evalbum:
> http://evalbum.com/cntrl/EPCV
> 
> Can you show us more builds with the controller in it? Even your build doesn't have a picture of the actual controller in it


 
still waiting.


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

PZigouras said:


> since we don't sell directly to the public.


Yet epc-corporation sells these products on eBay 

http://cgi.ebay.com/EV-Capacitor-Ba...1?rvr_id=267759037843&clk_rvr_id=267759037843


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## Ziggythewiz (May 16, 2010)

PZigouras said:


> I won't put anything in my car that doesn't have the EPC logo on it.


Does that include the awesome 4 millifarad EV capacitor bank?


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

No Ziggy - its a massive 48 millifarads!


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## JRoque (Mar 9, 2010)

You guys are killing me...

Ok, I've done a bit more searching and found a member of this forum who recently purchased one of Paul's controllers. I will PM him in a sec and invite him to comment here and clear all doubts. Stand by...

JR


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## Ziggythewiz (May 16, 2010)

Duncan said:


> No Ziggy - its a massive 48 millifarads!


Ah, yes, thank you. I missed one of those impressive 0's. Still the same total capacity as the $20 1F audio cap hiding in one of my junk boxes.


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## Qer (May 7, 2008)

PZigouras said:


> ...up to and including dead shorts.


You mean like this?

Yeah, we've done it too and we posted the graphs...


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## PZigouras (Jun 5, 2010)

major said:


> Yet epc-corporation sells these products on eBay
> 
> http://cgi.ebay.com/EV-Capacitor-Ba...1?rvr_id=267759037843&clk_rvr_id=267759037843


 
Actually, if you bothered to read our profile on ebay, you would see this has been in our profile since January of 2011:

"EPC Corporation uses ebay to sell used items, customer returns, and non-working items/inventory. We do NOT sell our retail products online; New products are only available through our dealers/resellers.

"

We also sell anything that cosmetically doesn't look good enough to ship to our dealers (paint chips, sctratches, etc).


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## evimarn (Jun 26, 2008)

Hi Paul,

Is there a chance of getting a list of the units available and are they standalone.
I am having a hard time locating any elsewhere.
Just trying to convert a landrover freelander and need more than standard 144v mosfet units, to get some decent 'freeway' speed.
Thank you.


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## PZigouras (Jun 5, 2010)

evimarn said:


> Hi Paul,
> 
> Is there a chance of getting a list of the units available and are they standalone.
> I am having a hard time locating any elsewhere.
> ...


We have three units available through our dealers: The EP-Junior, EP-1000, and EP-2000

All will run as stand alone units, except for the EP-Junior which may require an external capacitor bank, depending on the model you have.

If you can't find any local dealers that carry our controllers, please feel free to contact us at 508-923-9503 and we will see what we can do for you.


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## evimarn (Jun 26, 2008)

Thanks Paul.
will do after completing my home works hehe school is just starting and we are really busy right now over here.


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## Roy Von Rogers (Mar 21, 2009)

Are there any manuals to download, as to hook up and control ??

Roy


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

Roy Von Rogers said:


> Are there any manuals to download, as to hook up and control ??
> 
> Roy


Hi Roy,

PZig said there was. He told me to contact him by email. I did. He said he would send me the manual. That was 5 months ago. Still waiting 

After all which has been posted about this guy and epc-corp, I cannot believe some still entertain the thought of using the product or dealing with the guy or the company. But people are free to conduct business, sell anything, say anything, avoid the tough questions about proof and to spend their money on crap.

About a dozen well respected senior members of this forum have warned against or commented negatively about this product in regards to use in EV cars.

Take it for what it's worth.

major


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## PZigouras (Jun 5, 2010)

major said:


> Hi Roy,
> 
> PZig said there was. He told me to contact him by email. I did. He said he would send me the manual. That was 5 months ago. Still waiting
> 
> ...


Keep in mind that Major and "a dozen well respected senior members of this forum " have never owned, used, or even seen a real controller from Enterprise Power Conversion Corp., so their opinions really don't mean anything to me or anyone else who actually owns and uses one.

What you SHOULD do is ask someone who drives one on a regular basis. Those opinions are the ones that count.


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## Huub3 (Aug 16, 2009)

PZigouras said:


> What you SHOULD do is ask someone who drives one on a regular basis. Those opinions are the ones that count.


Paul,

this is exactly what all these respected members are asking you to provide, and which you are consistenly refusing.

So, stop whining, the burden of proof is with you, period.

Huub


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## frodus (Apr 12, 2008)

PZigouras said:


> What you SHOULD do is ask someone who drives one on a regular basis. Those opinions are the ones that count.


By that, you mean ask you? Because you have yet to show us anyone else that uses one in their vehicle.... and the only information I can find is your car on EVAlbum and you don't even show this controller installed in the car! 



You are the one who said:


PZigouras said:


> Thirdly, there are plenty of people who drive to work each day with our controllers (on the highway). You can check out www.evAlbum.com to see a few of them...


 
We've asked you several times, which you keep ignoring..... 



> And as far as the number of builds, still waiting.... I only see you on evalbum:
> http://evalbum.com/cntrl/EPCV
> 
> Can you show us more builds with the controller in it? Even your build doesn't have a picture of the actual controller in it


and



EVfun said:


> Could you please point out where they are hiding on the EValbum? Here is a search by controller brand.


and


gottdi said:


> Then by all means do a show and tell with your setup. Photos, video and all that.


----------



## PZigouras (Jun 5, 2010)

You're right... I just realized that those pictures on EV Album were taken while the car was being built. This is a picture of what it looks like now.

They just added the Enterprise Power Conversion Corp listing to the controllers a few weeks ago, so anyone who listed their car before that should change it. If you listed it as "other", we won't be able to search for it.


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## Guest (Oct 1, 2011)

We are still wanting references to those who are running these. If not viable references then no sale.

Dang, this is like pulling good teeth from a pit bull with no restraint.


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## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

PZigouras said:


> Keep in mind that Major and "a dozen well respected senior members of this forum " have never owned, used, or even seen a real controller from Enterprise Power Conversion Corp., so their opinions really don't mean anything to me or anyone else who actually owns and uses one.
> 
> What you SHOULD do is ask someone who drives one on a regular basis. Those opinions are the ones that count.


Yeah, major, et al., don't know anything... Quoted for posterity, the experience of someone who made the mistake of believing your sales spiel:



Citystromer said:


> I had my EP junior running a couple of hours. I didn`t in particular mind the 50 Hz humming sound it made. until it quit. And smelled.
> Uppon inspection I noticed soon that both 1200V 600A IGBT`s where shut.
> Good thing that the company promised to send all necessary replacement parts, after all there is a one year guarantee.
> Unfortunately they promised that already a month ago, and still are, now they say that they are waiting for the electronics board and thas soon as they`ll get it they`ll send everything.
> ...


People like you, Paul Zigouras, are the scourge of the DIY EV industry.


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## evimarn (Jun 26, 2008)

Hi, can we have a list of schematics and any mods done to improve reliability as l ong as they are well tested out by you, and also if any one is supplying them either as kits or ready assembled.
I already tried wiki but the high powered ones seem to be giving some teething probs.

Cheers.


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## PZigouras (Jun 5, 2010)

evimarn said:


> Hi, can we have a list of schematics and any mods done to improve reliability as l ong as they are well tested out by you, and also if any one is supplying them either as kits or ready assembled.
> I already tried wiki but the high powered ones seem to be giving some teething probs.
> 
> Cheers.


Although EPC's controllers have been very reliable since beginning, we have made significant changes in the electronics (and overall design) during the past two years. All these upgrades have made our units even more reliable, easier to install, and incorporated additional safeties.

Our schematics are not yet public (they are patent pending), and I don't know for sure if they will be released even after we receive the patent. 

However, if you do have an older unit, and you would like the newest version of the electronics, you are entitled to one free upgrade during the life of the controller. Simply call EPC Corp. at 508-923-9503 and you can exchange your primary electronics board for free. We can also do the installation/upgrade for you, if you'd like.


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## Guest (Oct 15, 2011)

A PDF with specs and safety and all that sort of stuff. No one is asking for proprietary stuff. So far we have not had access to any manual or spec sheet. Only what you say. I already told you that you will need to publish these things. It is a must. ALL other controllers on the market offer a public accessible manual and spec sheet. ALL. EXCEPT YOURS.


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## Guest (Oct 15, 2011)

Three versions of the same video on youtube? That is one noisy controller when you first start out. Sounds like a transformer getting ready to blow. What is the voltage your using in that video? No control of the amperage, right? I gather no voltage or amperage limits that I could adjust.


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

Hi PZ

_Our schematics are not yet public (they are patent pending), and I don't know for sure if they will be released even after we receive the patent. _

I think you are missing the point of a patent - patents are public documents 
By applying for a patent you are publishing the details of your idea in exchange for a 20 years legal monopoly 

Patents cannot be secret!

Anything not on the patent documents (publicly available) is simply not covered!


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## PZigouras (Jun 5, 2010)

gottdi said:


> A PDF with specs and safety and all that sort of stuff. No one is asking for proprietary stuff. So far we have not had access to any manual or spec sheet. Only what you say. I already told you that you will need to publish these things. It is a must. ALL other controllers on the market offer a public accessible manual and spec sheet. ALL. EXCEPT YOURS.


Well, the owner's manual is available online... might that be enough to satisfy people's curiosity?

http://www.epc-corporation.com/EP-1000_MANUAL.pdf


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## PZigouras (Jun 5, 2010)

gottdi said:


> Three versions of the same video on youtube? That is one noisy controller when you first start out. Sounds like a transformer getting ready to blow. What is the voltage your using in that video? No control of the amperage, right? I gather no voltage or amperage limits that I could adjust.


The EP-1000 on Youtube is one version, yes. There are no transformers or coils to blow... the controller is 100% solid state with no coils or windings.

It's loud on take-off due to the very low operating frequency (under 150 hz). The car makes it worse because neither the hood, nor the car have any sound insulation (it was a bare 1970 frame). If you were to put the same controller in a regular car, it would not be nearly as loud.

The version in the video does not limit current when you're at 100% throttle. Still, it seems to work very well, considering we beat the living crap out of it everytime we test drove it. Hard launches, burn outs, you name it. She handled it well!

Also, the last test drive we did... the heatsink was almost room temperature when I got back. No fans, no liquid cooling. Just the way you see it here. Now that's why I call efficient!


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## Qer (May 7, 2008)

PZigouras said:


> Well, the owner's manual is available online... might that be enough to satisfy people's curiosity?


Yep. I'm content.


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## evimarn (Jun 26, 2008)

Yepp it seems really robust,have you tried upping the frequency to see what happens, although I would think that it does not really matter much to have it dumb, but silence is a virtue it is said.
Thanks for sharing the info.


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## danmansuttmeier (Mar 7, 2011)

I want this to be real so bad. But according to ebay feedback you only have sold one ep-1000. and it was for $200. that sale seems a little cheap. 

http://www.ebay.com/itm/EP-1000-EV-...=300604759962&ps=63&clkid=3597931622517757137

also I can get a zilla which is a proven programmable controller for only $300 more. You may say $300 is a big difference in price but that is a 300V zilla with safety features compared to your 240V ep-1000 without safety features. Safety is important to me. So I will give you $1600 for it.


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## Guest (Oct 20, 2011)

Go with a Zilla over a EPC. You get a warranty and fully programmable and reliable. Known reliability. 

Pete


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## EVfun (Mar 14, 2010)

Go with the Zilla. It has lots of safety features for on-road vehicles. Mine brings a smile to my face evry drive. There are plenty of other satisfied users too, ranging from street vehicles full of golf cart batteries to drag cars setting records on the track. 

The Soliton 1 has a loyal following too, I would seriously consider it if I was in the market for a new controller. I haven't used one so I can't offer any personal experience.


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## Qer (May 7, 2008)

danmansuttmeier said:


> You may say $300 is a big difference in price but that is a 300V zilla with safety features compared to your 240V ep-1000 without safety features. Safety is important to me. So I will give you $1600 for it.


I'm part of the team behind the Soliton, my views are therefore of course biased. They're biased in the way that one of the reasons I joined the adventure was because I started to get sick of all the toys out there. Back then Kelly blew pop-corn in every second street corner, Curtis was reliable but so desperately under powered and Zilla had dropped from the face of the earth (the first time). All controllers available could hence be divided in two categories: Crap or boring.

So we made the Soliton. It is a controller that limit or cut current to protect itself and the driver(!), no matter if it's because of over current, over temp or over whatever, and from our early experiments I know, first hand, that if your controller doesn't make a good job protecting itself from over abuse (like Soliton, Curtis, Zilla etc) they will, eventually, blow up (like Logisystems, at least early Kelly and so on). It's not a question about if, it's a question about when.

So you're choosing between a real controller, the Zilla, that will probably last for years and that Otmar is still continuously supporting and upgrading, and then there's that ... contraption ... that seems to be a pile of IGBTs thrown in a plastic(!?) box "controlled" by PWM-circuit that seems to be as braindead as a politician between elections.

I try not to talk bad about our competitors in general, and even if I think the Soliton is superior to the Zilla (told you I'm biased  ) the Zilla is still definitely not a bad choise. There's quite a bunch of Zillas out there that has been running for years (over a decade?) without any incident and, well, that speaks for itself.

I don't care what PZ claim, silicon has a very fine line between use and abuse and it's very non-forgiving if you pass that line. Making safety "optional" is, well... I think I'll just quote an earlier post:



Tesseract said:


> People like you, Paul Zigouras, are the scourge of the DIY EV industry.


If something is too good to be true, it probably is. Be safe, buy a Sol... err Zilla!


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## danmansuttmeier (Mar 7, 2011)

Yea the soliton1 will be the controller I'm buying because the dealer I deal with doesn't carry zillas and has a very good price on the soliton1. He also says the soliton1 is better and I believe the guy he has always been very honest and helpful. 

I just saw that epc price and how easy the wiring diagram looked and thought wow maybe Santa is real. Back to reality with that "my epjr lasted a couple hours thread" yikes!


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## Guest (Oct 20, 2011)

Well, heck, if the dealer is selling Soliton1's then by all means get one of those. Zilla is an old but good design. Soliton1 is the top dog today. 

Do you have images of the inside of that EPC JR? Many hear would love to see an autopsy done on one.


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## PZigouras (Jun 5, 2010)

danmansuttmeier said:


> I want this to be real so bad. But according to ebay feedback you only have sold one ep-1000. and it was for $200. that sale seems a little cheap.
> 
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/EP-1000-EV-...=300604759962&ps=63&clkid=3597931622517757137
> 
> also I can get a zilla which is a proven programmable controller for only $300 more. You may say $300 is a big difference in price but that is a 300V zilla with safety features compared to your 240V ep-1000 without safety features. Safety is important to me. So I will give you $1600 for it.


EPC doesn't sell new controllers on ebay; New controllers are only available through our dealers. If we do sell any units on ebay, they are either used, or for parts only. Still, I don't recall us ever selling an EP-1000 on ebay for $200.... I think the cheapest was around $900 for a used one. If you saw a $200 auction, it was probably for an EPC battery charger or capacitor bank, not a controller.


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## frodus (Apr 12, 2008)

PZigouras said:


> EPC doesn't sell new controllers on ebay


Well, judging by the fact that you still haven't produced any examples of anyone else besides you using this controller......

Are you even selling any outside of ebay?

Still waiting on some examples....


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

PZigouras said:


> EPC doesn't sell new controllers on ebay; New controllers are only available through our dealers. If we do sell any units on ebay, they are either used, or for parts only. Still, I don't recall us ever selling an EP-1000 on ebay for $200.... I think the cheapest was around $900 for a used one. If you saw a $200 auction, it was probably for an EPC battery charger or capacitor bank, not a controller.


http://www.ebay.com/itm/300579835675 

Auction ended with a $222.50 bid. The description from that listing:



> *EP-1000 EV Controller for Electric Cars with DC Motors*
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

PZigouras said:


> EPC doesn't sell new controllers on ebay; New controllers are only available through our dealers.


What about http://www.ebay.com/itm/EP-1000-EV-...=300579835675&ps=63&clkid=3613822162521947283 Description from eBay listing:

*



EP-1000 (EV) DC Motor Controller for Electric Cars

Click to expand...

*


> Brand new EP-1000 controller, with owners manual (no retail packaging). Controller is ready to ship.... NO WAITING LIST!!! This unit was used as a demo and has some small blemishes on the paint.... but nothing significant.
> This is the EV version, which works on any DC electric car or vehicle. This is the LASTEST version of the EP-1000 (picture is of the older version) which features a 100% plug-and-play design! Auto-configures for all battery packs from 96 volts to 240 volts... simply connect and go! No programming necessary!!! Automatically configures itself for any standard 5K to 100K potentiometer, so it will work with all your existing hardware.
> This motor speed control is designed for all heavy duty automotive, marine, and racing applications. Great for highway-going electric vehicles up to 6500 pounds.
> 1000 amps continuous rating, 2400 amps peak. All terminals are clearly labeled for fast & easy installation. Built-in 12,000 microfarad capacitor bank will run even the largest DC motors. Non-metallic enclosure is wet-location compliant, and features all brass/stainless steel hardware. Measures approx. 12 x 12 x 7 inches (not including mounting tabs).
> The EP-1000 is by far, the most powerful electric vehicle controller on the market today -- and easiest to install! Just ask someone who owns one! Comes with one-year, no-fault warranty. For warranty or technical questions, please email or call 508-923-9503 during normal business hours. Designed by American engineers, and proudly Made in USA. FREE SHIPPING inside the USA!


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## muffildy (Oct 11, 2011)

these epc1000 controllers can be used for PMAC motors like the motenergy? how much is the controller? To get a kelly controller suitable for the motenergy it costs between 1000 and 1400 depending on if you need 72v or 96v.


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## PZigouras (Jun 5, 2010)

muffildy said:


> these epc1000 controllers can be used for PMAC motors like the motenergy? how much is the controller? To get a kelly controller suitable for the motenergy it costs between 1000 and 1400 depending on if you need 72v or 96v.


The only Motenergy motors that will work with our EPC controllers is the brush-type motors, such as the ME1002. The brushless and AC motors will not work with our controllers.


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## muffildy (Oct 11, 2011)

ah too bad


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## danmansuttmeier (Mar 7, 2011)

Paul i got your PM and would seriously consider buying a epc controller for my schools project truck but you need to clear up the all the fog on your company. Please post some dealers here for everyone that carry your product or someone that can vouch for the product. I cant risk telling my university to send you money and then your some scam artist in the Ukraine if you know what I mean. I live in RI so maybe one day I could visit your factory and you show me around?


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## PZigouras (Jun 5, 2010)

danmansuttmeier said:


> Paul i got your PM and would seriously consider buying a epc controller for my schools project truck but you need to clear up the all the fog on your company. Please post some dealers here for everyone that carry your product or someone that can vouch for the product. I cant risk telling my university to send you money and then your some scam artist in the Ukraine if you know what I mean. I live in RI so maybe one day I could visit your factory and you show me around?


As you can see by our website, all our products are 100% USA made, and we are proud to show them off. There is nothing foreign about our products. If you come by sometime, we have several cars here that you can drive with EPC controllers installed in them. This will give you a feel for how they perform in real-world driving.

We also have some customers cars that are even nicer than ours, and I'm sure they won't mind you taking them for a quick spin. Unfortunely, a lot of the end users that own our products (especially the older people) don't know how to use a computer and can't post their pictures online. But they are more than happy to let you drive their projects...


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

danmansuttmeier said:


> Please post some dealers here for everyone that carry your product or someone that can vouch for the product.





PZigouras said:


> As you can see by our website, all our products are 100% USA made, and we are proud to show them off. There is nothing foreign about our products. If you come by sometime, we have several cars here that you can drive with EPC controllers installed in them. This will give you a feel for how they perform in real-world driving.
> 
> We also have some customers cars that are even nicer than ours, and I'm sure they won't mind you taking them for a quick spin. Unfortunely, a lot of the end users that own our products (especially the older people) don't know how to use a computer and can't post their pictures online. But they are more than happy to let you drive their projects...


Again you avoid the direct question. In the past you have told us to go to your web site and inquire of the dealers listed there. I have tried that. I got nothing. None listed mention your product and I could not get a reply from any inquiry. And again, not one posted satisfied user. Oh yea, you 

And on the auction descriptions I quoted in posts #169 & 170 there is a big discrepancy in product specification for the same part#, not to mention difference in retail price. Those were only 3 months apart.

Thanks for posting your manual. It looks like you composed that the night before. Compare that to any brand name controller manual. 

You have posted several pictures of your controller under the hood in an EV. In all cases, batteries are visible. All have been lead-acid, some a mixture of types and brands in the same pack. I suspect these crappy battery packs have trouble putting out enough current to tax a controller. Have you got anything using a decent battery? 

How about some real data? Post up a pedal to metal acceleration current vs time profile with a motor and battery which hits 1900 or 2400 amps peak, or even 1000.

You continue to show nothing of substance.

major


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## danmansuttmeier (Mar 7, 2011)

PZigouras said:


> As you can see by our website, all our products are 100% USA made, and we are proud to show them off. There is nothing foreign about our products. If you come by sometime, we have several cars here that you can drive with EPC controllers installed in them. This will give you a feel for how they perform in real-world driving.
> 
> We also have some customers cars that are even nicer than ours, and I'm sure they won't mind you taking them for a quick spin. Unfortunely, a lot of the end users that own our products (especially the older people) don't know how to use a computer and can't post their pictures online. But they are more than happy to let you drive their projects...


That would be great I will contact you when I'm in the area. I appreciate it.


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## Qer (May 7, 2008)

danmansuttmeier said:


> That would be great I will contact you when I'm in the area. I appreciate it.


Please take pics and let us know about your experiences from the trip so we finally can get some hard core information about this elusive EPC-corporation...


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## evimarn (Jun 26, 2008)

Hi Paul,
not that I am gullible but I believe in your product, I would buy it ready made and save me some time only wish it had some sort of current limiting,would also love to see its inside. I am ok if you do not wish to reveal its schematic but I am used to be able to see and understand the product I am purchasing.So please if it is possible it will be a very nice idea to have some pertinent data at hand.
Thank you.


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## Guest (Oct 21, 2011)

Hey, maybe we could get everyone here to pitch in and we could buy one just to rip apart warranty be damned. I'd also suggest if you go to his company to see the workings of the place that you take a secret camera so he won't know he's being filmed and then do a youtube video. Oooops. did I let the cat out too soon?


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## JRoque (Mar 9, 2010)

Qer said:


> Please take pics and let us know about your experiences from the trip so we finally can get some hard core information about this elusive EPC-corporation...


and pics at a distance and out of focus don't count, ok?


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## PZigouras (Jun 5, 2010)

evimarn said:


> Hi Paul,
> not that I am gullible but I believe in your product, I would buy it ready made and save me some time only wish it had some sort of current limiting,would also love to see its inside. I am ok if you do not wish to reveal its schematic but I am used to be able to see and understand the product I am purchasing.So please if it is possible it will be a very nice idea to have some pertinent data at hand.
> Thank you.


The current limiter is only a $160 option on the EP-1000, and a lot of them come with it already installed. I've also been using one for over a year with no limiter, and I've never had an issue with it. That said, you really should get the limiter if you have a lithium or other type of high power pack.


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## danmansuttmeier (Mar 7, 2011)

With Pauls permission I will take pics of my visit. I don't have a camera but my iPhone 4 usually does the job. And if everything is up to snuff I may be buying an epc controller.


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## frodus (Apr 12, 2008)

PZigouras said:


> As you can see by our website, all our products are 100% USA made, and we are proud to show them off. There is nothing foreign about our products.


Nothing foreign except for the components that are inside it.......



PZigouras said:


> We also have some customers cars that are even nicer than ours, and I'm sure they won't mind you taking them for a quick spin. Unfortunely, a lot of the end users that own our products (especially the older people) don't know how to use a computer and can't post their pictures online. But they are more than happy to let you drive their projects...


 
Are you fuck kidding me? 

You are such a bullshitter, seriously. You have been skirting this question for like 8 months now.... and still no proof except your own car. You're nothing more than a snake-oil salesman.

Always an excuse.


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## Guest (Oct 21, 2011)

Frodus,

Sorry to see you actually edited your post. I much liked the original better. Makes the point come across better. I hate politically correct garbage. I like telling it like it really is. I whole heartedly agree with you. He does skirt the issues all the time. I want to buy one just to open for the world to see.


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## frodus (Apr 12, 2008)

re-edited it to put back in the words from before


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## mbarber (Feb 18, 2010)

FYI

I wanted to post a couple of pics of the inside of a EPC-1000 for you guys. 

They are pretty simple, with just the controller board, snubber capacitors for the IGBTs, the IGBTs themselves, heatsink on the outside, and another bigger capacitor that is wired up inline with the battery pack. 

It is about 12" x 12" and 6" high, not including the heatsink. This is the older model that has 4-400a IGBTs. Uses a 12v input and a 3-wire 10k potbox. For controlling the current flow, the box has only hook-ups on the negative side of the system, the negative coming in from the motor and then going to the negative side of the battery pack from the other side of the box. 

I have two of these that are slightly different, one them came from that Ebay sale someone mentioned earlier. These were purchased as non-operational, with a good controller board but bad IGBT modules. I hope to put one of these back together over the winter. I wanted to put it in a VW Vanagon as thought I should have more amps than a curtis could provide. 

I do have a third refurbished smaller unit from EPC, similar in type to an older EPC Junior. I threw it in a car, but either I blew it or it crapped out immediately on me. I shipped it out and got it back within 30 days or maybe less at no cost to me, but I put another controller in my car. So currently, I dont have any EPCs in any of my cars either. I hope this is helpfull.


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

mbarber said:


> FYI
> 
> I wanted to post a couple of pics of the inside of a EPC-1000 for you guys.
> 
> ...






























Thank you very much. I inserted the images to make them easier to view.

major


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## danmansuttmeier (Mar 7, 2011)

looks home made. at least big foot has been found finally. seems to have a record of dying early though.


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## JRoque (Mar 9, 2010)

danmansuttmeier said:


> looks home made


But it isn't! The perfboard looks like it's from Radio Shack and the PWM circuit is from eBay: http://www.ebay.com/itm/230689834392. 

I rewrote this post many times. I started writing about putting my safety at the hand of such product. I wrote about how I thought there isn't an industrial facility in the world that would use such controller to even drive the water fountain pump. Wrote about the lack of design and thought that went in a cobbled up mess like that. 

At the end, I'm taking a step back to look at the wider picture and thinking how a product like this is one small accident away from attracting the attention of someone in Government, get us all regulated and kill any and all DIY possibility of an EV.

At the risk of sounding alarmist, let me offer that the liability alone of using a product like this in a vehicle should make that decision an easy one.

JR


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

JRoque said:


> But it isn't! The perfboard looks like it's from Radio Shack and the PWM circuit is from eBay: http://www.ebay.com/itm/230689834392.
> 
> I rewrote this post many times. I started writing about putting my safety at the hand of such product. I wrote about how I thought there isn't an industrial facility in the world that would use such controller to even drive the water fountain pump. Wrote about the lack of design and thought that went in a cobbled up mess like that.
> 
> ...


Amen. I'm glad you chimed in. I thought the PWM board was out of some kid's toy. But a light dimmer kit  Nice eBay find. No wonder PZig never wanted to show the guts. I see a number of other issues in the box of doom. I hope Tesseract offers up his opinion.

This is just about what I expected, only worse.

major


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## Ziggythewiz (May 16, 2010)

In all fairness, that board is rated for a good 60W. That's more than enough to power a barbie car.


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## DavidDymaxion (Dec 1, 2008)

Major and/or Tesseract and/or whoever: It would be interesting and educational for the audience (myself included!) to hear a brief discussion of how this would differ from an early Curtis and a modern controller.


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## Qer (May 7, 2008)

DavidDymaxion said:


> Major and/or Tesseract and/or whoever: It would be interesting and educational for the audience (myself included!) to hear a brief discussion of how this would differ from an early Curtis and a modern controller.


The difference is enormous; I haven't seen anything released from any company that looks even remotely as amateurish as this piece of junk, even the ill-fated Logisystems came in a metal box with a circuit board that was properly CADded rather than just a rats nest built on a prototype board from Radio Shack.

The only time in the history of Soliton it looked even remotely as messy as this was when it was a very early prototype on Jeffs desk that burned a few hundred Watts of power into a block of graphite and I have a hard time believing that any serious manufacturer would consider, even briefly, to let something like this run a car. It's an accident waiting to happen and that it would handle 1000 Amps, even briefly, is something I doubt very much.

It's a scam, period.


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## Qer (May 7, 2008)

There's also some really nice(?) pictures in this thread:

http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forum...truely-pzgouraz-engineering-marvel-64673.html

I've been convinced for some time that the EPC is pure crap and that PZ doesn't know (or doesn't care) what he's doing but that it'd be this bad....


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

Qer said:


> I've been convinced for some time that the EPC is pure crap and that PZ doesn't know (or doesn't care) what he's doing but that it'd be this bad....


Yep Qer, I smelled a rat from the start. And I'm with you. The only thing worse than the product itself is the fact that Paul Zigouras promotes and sells it.



PZigouras said:


> As you can see by our website, all our products are 100% USA made, and we are proud to show them off. There is nothing foreign about our products.


Makes me want to puke 

major


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## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

major said:


> ...I see a number of other issues in the box of doom. I hope Tesseract offers up his opinion...


Oh boy... where to start???

Well, the biggest issue is that he used single switch modules - not choppers or half-bridges - so there isn't a freewheeling diode in the circuit. If PZ doesn't even understand how the simple buck converter works then what chance is there he'll get anything else right? Pretty much none.

Just in case this isn't clear to those people who still "so badly want this to be true" or that think this controller is "really robust"... No, it is not true and it is not robust.

You'd have better luck with a used Logisystems than this crap.


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## danmansuttmeier (Mar 7, 2011)

well at least i dont have to take a trip to boston now. time to order the soliton 1......


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

Ziggythewiz said:


> In all fairness, that board is rated for a good 60W. That's more than enough to power a barbie car.


Hi Zig,

Yep, that is the heart of the EP-1000. Here is the dope on it: 




> *Quickar Electronics, Inc.*​
> 
> *12 Volt Digital PWM Dimmer/ Speed Controller Kit. *​
> 
> ...


 
It operates at 150 Hz. Ref: http://www.quickar.com/ ​


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## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

Now wonder he can beat our prices! His control board costs less than our ethernet port!


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## PZigouras (Jun 5, 2010)

Tesseract said:


> Now wonder he can beat our prices! His control board costs less than our ethernet port!


I'm sorry, but our tiny 8-pin Atmel processor blows away your electronics in terms of performance and efficiency, so don't go there....


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## dimitri (May 16, 2008)

Dude, are you for real? Are we in the same universe? I hate to comment on these threads, but your responses make you look like you aren't from this planet at all.

My 13 year old kid can make better looking bread board projects, but it would never occur to me to sell it as a finished product.

And who in the world makes PWM motor control at 150Hz? That's just beyond stupid.


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## frodus (Apr 12, 2008)

This thread is almost too good NOT to subscribe!


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## EVfun (Mar 14, 2010)




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## Qer (May 7, 2008)

PZigouras said:


> I'm sorry, but our tiny 8-pin Atmel processor blows away your electronics in terms of performance and efficiency, so don't go there....


*ROFL*

Oh my God, you're really a piece of work, you. Ok, you might be able to convince a few newbies here and Jeffrey's not the software dude in the evnetics gang, but believe me, I know pretty much all there is to know about the AVR-family.

It's a bit tricky to read on the pictures, but it seems to be an ATtiny11 if I read correctly (and if I've misread I'll gladly analyse the correct AVR if someone informs me what those EPC-controllers use). It's an obsolete and pretty old model in the family of AVR microcontrollers and "tiny" means, as it sounds, that it's a tiny and rather limited version. Some key features:



1 KByte Flash
64 Bytes EEPROM (used to store for example user settings when power is switched off)
NO(!) RAM
A three level hardware stack
One timer
NO(!) PWM output
One interrupt pin
Two analogue inputs
Inputs for an external crystal
Only addition and subtraction in hardware
So what does all this mean?

Well, obviously 1 Kbyte Flash isn't much, it's actually less space than the Soliton use for storing the logo (3.5 KByte) that is displayed on the web page. The lack of RAM means that the only place to store data is in the 32 8 bit registers (R0-R31), it also means that all return addresses needed to return from a function call or an interrupt must fit in the three level hardware stack. If you, for example, do two calls to sub routines and has the bad luck that you get an ADC- and external interrupt at the same time you overflow the stack and your AVR will crash. This means you will have to craft your code very carefully and also might end up with race condition bugs that usually are very hard to pinpoint.

All this together makes the ATtiny11 too small for any high level language (like C...) which means that the only reasonable way to make it do anything useful is to hand craft everything in assembler. Of course, it won't be too time consuming since even in assembler you'll fill up 1 KByte of Flash pretty fast.

Further; the timer is a simple 8 bit timer that can't generate a PWM signal by it's own, instead it has to generate a software interrupt that makes the AVR run a piece of code that manually (if you can say so about a CPU) generates the interrupt. This has four consequences:


It will chew up a few tens of Bytes (at least) of your precious Flash space.
It will mean that there's a slight "nervousness" in the PWM since it always takes a few clock cycles for the interrupt to start executing and that time depends on what the CPU is doing when the interrupt trigs.
It also means you can't run the PWM too fast or the CPU will be busy just generating the durn PWM rather than read throttle or doing something else for that matter.
One of your three levels in the hardware stack must be reserved for the timer, which leaves two for other interrupts or subroutine calls.
The only other fancy function that seems to be used is one of the ADC-pins for, you guessed it, throttle. If this construction was the least serious the other ADC-pin would be used for keeping track of the current, but it doesn't seem to be as far as I can tell from the pictures and my personal guess is that it isn't because PZ took this dimmer circuit, butchered it without remorse but didn't modify the software probably because:


He's not a programmer.
There's not enough space for a decent motor control software in the minimal Flash space.
All of the above.
And finally, performance. Or lack of.

The ATtiny11 can run at a maximum of 8 MHz, compared to more modern AVRs (yes, even the 8 bit tiny ones) this is pretty slow and today all of them can run at at least 16 MHz with an external crystal. The ATtiny11 can't, it's stuck at 8. This means that the performance can reach "up to 8 MIPS" (ie one instruction per clock cycle), that is if it doesn't have to do anything advanced like:


Call or return from an interrupt: 4 clock cycles each
Jump in the code or call a subroutine: 2-3 clock cycles
Change state of an output pin (for example to create PWM): 2 clock cycles
Do multiplications or divisions: *snore*
The last bullet is a serious Achilles heel, the AVR core can add or subtract two 8 bit numbers on one clock cycle but anything more complex than that means you have to write your own subroutine. A modern AVR can multiply two 8 bit numbers and store the result as a 16 bit number in two clock cycles and this is a HUGE improvement in performance.

Today multiplications in hardware is pretty much standard even in the most basic micro controllers just because it makes it possible to, for example, rescale a value according to a stored calibration without too much speed penalty. If you write your software right you can also compensate the lack of support for hardware division by simply multiplying with the inverted constant, but support for multiplications is a must and is widely used in for example the Soliton for example for scaling the throttle according to the user calibration, calculate motor power from motor current and voltage and so on.

If you LACK support for hardware multiplication doing this kind of operations comes with a serious cost (it takes SEVERAL clock cycles to multiply two 8 bit numbers "manually" and it of course eats up even more of your precious Flash) and your performance drops like a rock.

I only agree with a part of what PZ said, and that is that "our tiny 8-pin Atmel processor blows".

And seriously, "don't go there" yourself.

PS. As a size comparison, the text above takes up a little over 5 kByte, formatting excluded...


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## dimitri (May 16, 2008)

I can't believe you wasted so much of your time to respond to his childish posts. Don't even bother, he can't understand most of what you wrote anyway.


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## Qer (May 7, 2008)

dimitri said:


> I can't believe you wasted so much of your time to respond to his childish posts. Don't even bother, he can't understand most of what you wrote anyway.


Actually, the hardest part was to figure out what AVR was (ab)used since the posted pictures are pretty crappy and I did that anyway since I was curious. Writing the text was actually not that time consuming since, as I said, I know a lot about the AVRs. I had to look up some numbers in the PDF, but I've read those so often it usually don't take long time for me to dig out the adequate info.


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## PZigouras (Jun 5, 2010)

dimitri said:


> Dude, are you for real? Are we in the same universe? I hate to comment on these threads, but your responses make you look like you aren't from this planet at all.
> 
> My 13 year old kid can make better looking bread board projects, but it would never occur to me to sell it as a finished product.
> 
> And who in the world makes PWM motor control at 150Hz? That's just beyond stupid.


First of all, our controller runs at 120Hz, not 150. 

And secondly, I've NEVER seen a high frequency controller that runs at over 97% efficiency at high loads like ours does.... not on this planet!!!

They use LIQUID COOLING for a reason!


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## frodus (Apr 12, 2008)

the datasheet for the little board says it's an ATtiny13A


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## dimitri (May 16, 2008)

PZigouras said:


> First of all, our controller runs at 120Hz, not 150.
> 
> And secondly, I've NEVER seen a high frequency controller that runs at over 97% efficiency at high loads like ours does.... not on this planet!!!
> 
> They use LIQUID COOLING for a reason!


I did not expect any other response from you, clearly you aren't getting what people are trying to tell you, so I won't waste any more time either.


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## Qer (May 7, 2008)

frodus said:


> the datasheet for the little board says it's an ATtiny13A


That actually means that it has hardware PWM and a whopping 64 bytes SRAM, so it's a quite noticeable improvement. The rest stands though and even if it's possible to write C for it (thanks to the 64 bytes SRAM) it's still VERY cramped and assembler is probably still the most realistic alternative.

Nope. I wouldn't use ATtiny13 for anything but extremely limited tasks.


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## Qer (May 7, 2008)

PZigouras said:


> And secondly, I've NEVER seen a high frequency controller that runs at over 97% efficiency at high loads like ours does.... not on this planet!!!


Then I think it's time for you to check your prescription.


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## nxp (Apr 6, 2011)

PZigouras said:


> I'm sorry, but our tiny 8-pin Atmel processor blows away your electronics in terms of performance and efficiency, so don't go there....


Whatever you say, that AVR simply does not have the functionality necessary to make a decent controller - nobody uses those parts unless he has a sadistic boss or else has a few millions of them caught up in unused stock.

Secondly, I am fairly sure that there are controllers out there with more functionality and "performance" out there WITHOUT a microprocessor. You can build a fully analogue motor controller with comparators and a few logic gates, and with some thought it can outperform the "logic board" of the EPXXX controllers in all respects.

Please stop bullshitting - some of us here are engineers by profession, and seeing stuff like that being sold to people disgusts/hurts/worries us.


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## rwaudio (May 22, 2008)

PZigouras said:


> I'm sorry, but our tiny 8-pin Atmel processor blows away your electronics in terms of performance and efficiency, so don't go there....


Wow....

There are two possible reasons PZigouras keeps pushing his controllers..
1) He enjoys the markup in selling $100-200 worth of junk for $1500+ as a "good deal". This makes him a sleazy "used car salesman" type person.
2) He actually believes that he sells a quality controller and can't figure out why none of us believe him.

#1 makes him a danger to the uninformed and gullible.
#2 makes him a danger to himself, everyone he comes in contact with, and the EV industry as a whole.

In all honesty I hope he is #1


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## PZigouras (Jun 5, 2010)

nxp said:


> Whatever you say, that AVR simply does not have the functionality necessary to make a decent controller - nobody uses those parts unless he has a sadistic boss or else has a few millions of them caught up in unused stock.
> 
> Secondly, I am fairly sure that there are controllers out there with more functionality and "performance" out there WITHOUT a microprocessor. You can build a fully analogue motor controller with comparators and a few logic gates, and with some thought it can outperform the "logic board" of the EPXXX controllers in all respects.
> 
> Please stop bullshitting - some of us here are engineers by profession, and seeing stuff like that being sold to people disgusts/hurts/worries us.


So far, we have never had a failure on any of the units that we road tested ourselves. We also have not seen any safety issues with the EP-1000 units we've shipped to date. I'm sure if there were any major issues, someone would have notified us by now... or at least called in a warranty.

Still, if you are a professional engineer, and you legitimately see something wrong with any currently-produced EPC controller, then we are more than willing to listen to what you have to say. If you have something constructive to add, we will gladly speak with you and get your opinion on it -- especially if it improves the product.

EPC has gone over the design many, many times, and we have done tons of torture tests on our controllers. We have over voltaged them, over-currented them, and even submersed one in water while running a load. They passed every test, and we feel that they are more than safe enough for highway use. 

However, if you don't feel that way after examining an actual controller, we will gladly consider any changes you suggest. Everyone at EPC has respect for engineers who have lots of experience and want to share.


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## Jan (Oct 5, 2009)

PZ, I’m no engeneer, but I’ve a calculator, so please let me show you a very simple calculation: 

You claim 350V max, 1000A continuous and 97% efficiency under heavy load. And you’re pretty impressed with that 97%. 

Well let’s take a closer look: 1000A and 350V is 350kW of continuous power.
But ‘only’ 3% of this impressive power is lost as heat.
This very little 3% of this 350kW is still 10,5kW of heating power.
Your box is equivalent to a 10,5kW heater at its rated power. I’m not talking about peak power yet.

If you’ve no idea what this means, this is a random example of a 10kW heater:

http://www.google.nl/imgres?imgurl=http://www.airrexusa.com/media/catalog/product/cache/1/thumbnail/600x600/9df78eab33525d08d6e5fb8d27136e95/1/0/10_kw_heater.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.airrexusa.com/heating/electric-heaters/portable-electric-10kw-240v.html&usg=__rMgKBcBW3WgSbhpDbxz3swf7zcY=&h=600&w=600&sz=54&hl=nl&start=1&zoom=1&tbnid=BZU5TsjOVxGiBM:&tbnh=135&tbnw=135&ei=9b-nTs3DOYrs-gbx3dDHDw&prev=/search%3Fq%3D10kw%2Bheater%26hl%3Dnl%26sa%3DX%26rls%3Dcom.microsoft:nl:IE-Address%26rlz%3D1I7HPNW_nl%26tbm%3Disch%26prmd%3Divns&itbs=1

It has quite a fan on it. At 220Vac it needs 48Amps. At your 110Vac it needs nearly 100Amps. Prety impressive heater.

Can you really imagine that this simple plastic box can get rid of 10,5kW of heat? Be honest.


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## JRoque (Mar 9, 2010)

Hi Paul. My advise would be to direct your attention to other means of making a living. There are plenty of hocus pocus businesses you can jump on that will not receive half the scrutiny you're getting here, similar to your nuclear fusion flux capacitor from a couple of years past.

I've noticed that you've been making slight improvements to your controller as you receive criticism from members - your first version didn't have capacitors or freewheeling diodes, as I understand it. While that would be good progress for any DIYer, you're offering your product commercially and that's just dangerous. Even if your IGBT controller design would be sound (it ain't, by a mile), the whole package is just not roadworthy with things dangling from a perforated board.

If you have an itch to provide EV controllers, talk to the Paul & Sabrina guys and mass produce their solution. Not that theirs is any marvel of engineering but as a group effort it's already beyond self-imploding stage and has been proven on known and well documented installations.

Really, please! Take a second look at the risks this controller is bringing you, not to mention your customers. Forgive me for being so direct and blunt but I see potential for someone to get hurt, you getting sued or our entire movement regulated to the ground.

JR


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## PZigouras (Jun 5, 2010)

Jan said:


> PZ, I’m no engeneer, but I’ve a calculator, so please let me show you a very simple calculation:
> 
> You claim 350V max, 1000A continuous and 97% efficiency under heavy load. And you’re pretty impressed with that 97%.
> 
> ...


 
Our 1000-amp controller is not designed to handle 350kw continuously, and neither are most controllers in the $1500 to $2000 price range. It's made to handle regular driving at regular highway speeds with efficiency that really can't be matched by the Curtis 1231, and any other controllers in the price range. 

If you're looking to run a continuous 350kw load, you'll probably need a controller in the $3000 to $5000 range. And besides, most people with a battery pack that can provide that much power continuously are probably not in the market for an economy controller any ways.


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## Jan (Oct 5, 2009)

PZigouras said:


> Our 1000-amp controller is not designed to handle 350kw continuously


You have to modify your website PZ: 
http://epc-corporation.com/images/EPC-10001.jpg

It clearly says: 1000 amps continuously and up to 350V. It might give people the wrong idea.

My guess is that, without fans, your max heat dissipating is less than 1000W. A small heater. And I think I'm a bit optimistic.

So at 97% efficiency the continuous power is approximately 30kW, and indeed for most cars enough to maintain highway speed. Which means at a common voltage level of 144V, the continuous amps are 200. Only at 30V you would might expect 1000A for a while. But this is also wrong, because you won't get 97% efficiency at such low voltage levels. Not even close.

It can not be compared with a Soliton1. And makes your claims that they need liquid cooling because their product is less efficient than yours very silly.


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## TigerNut (Dec 18, 2009)

PZigouras said:


> So far, we have never had a failure on any of the units that we road tested ourselves. We also have not seen any safety issues with the EP-1000 units we've shipped to date. I'm sure if there were any major issues, someone would have notified us by now... or at least called in a warranty.
> 
> Still, if you are a professional engineer, and you legitimately see something wrong with any currently-produced EPC controller, then we are more than willing to listen to what you have to say. If you have something constructive to add, we will gladly speak with you and get your opinion on it -- especially if it improves the product.
> 
> ...


If you're serious about building these things and don't want to end up being found liable for gross negligence at some point, you should avail yourself of the services of an electrical engineer that is familiar with power electronics and intrinsically safe design practice. 
For those not familiar, intrinsically safe design is the practice of ensuring that, even in the presence of one or two (depending on the safety level required) circuit faults, no component of the circuit will get hot enough to cause ignition in whatever atmosphere the device might find itself. In an electric car, that might be important if you have trace levels of hydrogen gas.
Another aspect to 'safe' design is proper separation of low and high energy circuits. Loose point-to-point wiring is not permitted, because fasteners can come undone and leave a high-energy line waving around to touch anything. Any electronic component should not be stressed beyond 80% of its designed power rating, taking into account all temperature derating required for the ambient temperature and the mounting of the component. This should include what might happen during fault conditions.

As an eventual EV customer, and as a professional electrical engineer, I wouldn't touch your "product" with a ten-foot pole. I'm into little British cars, and I've seen some very scary car stuff, built by people that had more enthusiasm than skill... but your controller, as a commercial product, is right up there at the top of the list.


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## favguy (May 2, 2008)

Having read this whole thread, I am simply astonished that very well respected and knowledgable members of this community are wasting valuable time engaging with this nonsense! 

PaulZ, you are obviously either a con man or a complete idiot, or possibly both. Anyone can see almost all of your claims are, well frankly utter s**t along with that badly built plastic box of junk of yours, an absolute disgrace that you are on here touting it. 

It is a great pity there isn't some way a moderator can ban you or something, before you do any real financial, or even physical harm to somebody.

To the 99.5% of great guys on here, please don't waste any more time debating with this nonsense!


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## PZigouras (Jun 5, 2010)

favguy said:


> Having read this whole thread, I am simply astonished that very well respected and clued up members of this community are wasting valuable time engaging with this nut! He is obviously either a con man or a complete idiot, or possibly both. Anyone can see almost all of his claims are, well frankly utter s**t along with his badly built plastic box of junk, an absolute disgrace that he's on here touting it.
> 
> Is there no way a moderator can ban him or something, before he does anyone harm?
> 
> Please don't waste any more time debating with his nonsense!


I think you are the one wasting our time.

You have not seen or shown me ONE single picture of a complete, unmodifed controller that EPC built. All the pictures you have posted show MODIFIED parts, MISSING parts, and altered electronics. There has not been a single picture of a production unit.

Please don't judge a product until you see the ACTUAL product, not a modified, damaged, or half product. Once you see a real one, THEN you can make all the comments you want about it. Meanwhile, please say nothing.


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## charliehorse55 (Sep 23, 2011)

PZigouras said:


> I think you are the one wasting our time.
> 
> You have not seen or shown me ONE single picture of a complete, unmodifed controller that EPC built. All the pictures you have posted show MODIFIED parts, MISSING parts, and altered electronics. There has not been a single picture of a production unit.
> 
> Please don't judge a product until you see the ACTUAL product, not a modified, damaged, or half product. Once you see a real one, THEN you can make all the comments you want about it. Meanwhile, please say nothing.


Could you take the time to post such a picture? Might help to clear things up.


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## frodus (Apr 12, 2008)

P-Ziggy, Why does favguy have to post anything? someone else already posted pictures of an unmodified EPC controller...


major said:


>


favguy, 

I say we let P-ziggy stay on here. Not like he's hurting anyone except for himself as he posts on this forum. The more we post, the more he tries to argue.

Lets maximize search engine hits by keeping this thread alive.... that way, when a potential customer researches their purchase, they've got this long thread to read through and come to their own conclusions.


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## favguy (May 2, 2008)

Quite,

PaulZ, Why don't you take the lid off one of your new, wonderful, unaltered controllers, photograph it and post it here. It will only take you 10 minutes, or else go away and get a real day job that doesn't involve trying to bulls**t the people on here, most of whom actually know what they are talking about and have proved it beyond question...

How dare you even compare your joke of a so called "controller" to a soliton or a zilla? You seem to be utterly oblivious to what a total t**t you are making yourself look 

Sorry to be so angry, but I have learned most of what little I know about EV conversion from the good people on here, and you are arguing the toss with the likes of people who developed and brought us the Soliton from scratch? stating you have a superior product!! What are you age 7 or something?


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## PZigouras (Jun 5, 2010)

favguy said:


> Quite,
> 
> PaulZ, Why don't you take the lid off one of your new, wonderful, unaltered controllers, photograph it and post it here. It will only take you 10 minutes, or else go away and get a real day job that doesn't involve trying to bulls**t the people on here, most of whom actually know what they are talking about and have proved it beyond question...
> 
> ...


I'm not arguing that fact that some people on here are engineers, and are very good at what they do. I also know that some of them are helpful when it comes to solving problems -- I don't dissagree with that either.

I just think that those people don't have the whole picture. It's kind of like looking at a car with the doors, wheels, and hood missing and trying to give it good reviews. 

Some people don't like our modular approch to building controllers... they want everything built-in. And that's fine... that's why we have our plug-and-play versions (none of which I've seen on here). But to call them unsafe without examining them first hand and test driving a current production unit is very unprofessional. 

We are publishing a service manual shortly for all our controllers. This manual wil give more technical specs as well as servicing instructions. This is for the current production models. If you review it and THEN have a legitimate issue with any part of the design, THEN we would like to hear about it.

Poking fun is one thing, but we take safety issues very seriously. None of the EPC controllers that I've used has ever failed under normal driving conditions. But, if someone feels that there is a chance it could happen someday -- for whatever reason -- then I ask that you do indeed contact the company right away and share your opinion with us. We don't have a problem with feedback and positive contributions.


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## Qer (May 7, 2008)

PZigouras said:


> But to call them unsafe without examining them first hand and test driving a current production unit is very unprofessional.


On the contrary, it's VERY professional because that's what they are. Unsafe, that is.

There's no bonus universe that exists just around EPC-controllers that let them break the laws of physics. You can't just let throttle control the pulse width and think that's enough, because a decent pack (I'm talking Lithium now, of course) could easily push several thousand amps through a motor that's standing still if the controller suddenly go 100% on.

A lead acid pack would have a harder time hitting some massive kA due to the higher internal resistance, but even a lead acid pack in decent shape would be able to bring some havoc if you suddenly short them directly into a motor with no active back-EMF. That's why you need current limitation and that's why these EPC contraptions are a scam.

Obviously I'm not trying to convince PZ anymore since he seems hell-bent on sticking to his fairy tales, I'm mainly trying to warn any possible newbie that happens to find his/her way here for these potentially lethal toys.


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

PZigouras said:


> ..........we take safety issues very seriously.


From the looks of your products, that is an unbelievable statement.



> None of the EPC controllers that I've used has ever failed under normal driving conditions. But, if someone feels that there is a chance it could happen someday -- for whatever reason -- then I ask that you do indeed contact the company right away and share your opinion with us. We don't have a problem with feedback and positive contributions.


Here is a good example: http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showthread.php?p=266236#post266236 He didn't tell the conditions of the failure, but IGBTs often fail to the conduction state, meaning full-on. And in some conditions this can lead to uncontrolled acceleration of the vehicle and the brakes unable to stop the massive DC motor torque. And in certain conditions, battery current-time product can be below fuse ratings. It is easy to imagine such an incident causing bodily injury or death to innocent bystanders or occupants. The design and build quality of the EPC product invites this failure. 

If you take safety seriously and don't have a problem with feedback, consider this a positive contribution. Get your crap off the market.

Seriously,

major


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## PZigouras (Jun 5, 2010)

major said:


> From the looks of your products, that is an unbelievable statement.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
When I said make a "positive contribution" I meant give YOUR opinion of what we SHOULD use, not just 'Get your crap off the market". That's not a "positive contribution" dah. 
.


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## mora (Nov 11, 2009)

Haha, how funny. PZ is a salesman and can't say anything bad about this product. Well, good thing rest of us are no salesmen.

Their slogan, or whatever it is, suits this well: We believe in simplicity. And so will you.

Enormous Piece of Crap. Guess their next product line in this category is EPS.


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

PZigouras said:


> When I said make a "positive contribution" I meant give YOUR opinion of what we SHOULD use, not just 'Get your crap off the market". That's not a "positive contribution" dah.


I was being as polite and positive as possible. I restrain from typing the words which really come to mind.

Here is what you should do:

1) Buy back every controller you have made.

2) Destroy all of them.

3) Fire everyone associated with the design and fabrication of those controllers.

4) Hire a competent electronic design engineer and start over.

5) Seek a company or individuals competent to build the product for you.

6) Engage in a product development, testing and validation program.

7) Consider taking it to market after 1 thru 6 are complete.


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## TigerNut (Dec 18, 2009)

PZigouras said:


> When I said make a "positive contribution" I meant give YOUR opinion of what we SHOULD use, not just 'Get your crap off the market". That's not a "positive contribution" dah.
> .


You SHOULD use a competent professional electrical engineer to design your controllers with due consideration for fail-safe operation in the presence of external as well as internal faults, proper mounting of internal components, and strain-relieving of internal wiring.

Until then, get your crap off the market, or at least don't pollute the DIY EV marketplace with it.

And, since you seem to think that we need to touch or otherwise personally experience your system before we can judge it: Going by the pictures (and you're welcome to provide your own if you think the ones posted aren't representative), what we see is a flimsy plastic box that isn't designed for automotive environments, containing a bunch of components that are improperly mounted, attached together with unrestrained wires. I don't need to get any closer than that to form the opinion that this system will likely break a wire or a component will come loose, and that failure will then cascade to something much more serious, without the system being able to shut itself down.

If your "plug and play" system does have such safety features - then post the documentation and some pictures to prove it. If I, as a customer, would be required to add that stuff myself, then post your recommended reference electrical schematic that illustrates how that is to be done.

As a vendor of high-power electrical control systems it's your responsibility to provide sufficient information to the end customer to build a safe installation. If your controller doesn't have IGBT failure protection, then you need to provide sufficient warnings and a suitable protection scheme, not just "we've never seen that happen with our system".


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## Jan (Oct 5, 2009)

Can't help wandering and looking again. I'm sorry.

Butttt.... That omron thing is definitly a relay:

http://in.rsdelivers.com/product/om...niature-pcb-relay-10a-12vdc-coil/0492907.aspx

So, how do they power the gate-driver? It must have an isolated step up (is what you call it?) converter. How? I'm a little afraid it isn't there at all, and they use the 12V input directly as power source. Which could mean that the chassis is pack voltage. Or not?


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## Citystromer (May 2, 2009)

gottdi said:


> Because it is more BS than any thing else. No video, no proof only talk. All talk and no go. That is why you don't see a damn thing.


Well, looks like any warrenty on EP BS is also crap. 
I`m really surprised that he is getting away without complying with consumer electronics standars, those devices are actually a danger to human. Ought to get a lawyer.


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## Citystromer (May 2, 2009)

PZigouras said:


> Again, we're really not targeting the EV market, so I doubt we will be adding any more EV-related features to the units (at least not internally -- external modules are available for certain features). The industry demand for large DC motor controllers is so high right now, we can barely keep up production as is.
> 
> Neither controller has a voltage limiter, mostly because these industrial motors run at regular line voltages. You can, however, limit the % of duty cycle, which effectively limits the current (and motor speed).
> 
> ...


--- Well, I didn`t worry either when connecting the EP- Junior labeled "controller" to a 120V max 200A Dc motor in my car. 
Unfortunately the EP Junior was cooked almost right away ( 1-2 hr). 
Uppon opening the smoldering case and inspecting the inside, we were surprised it lasted that long: There was a light dimmer kit connected to 2 IGBT`s, sloppy soldering, here`s a pic of it: a light dimmer connected to 2 IGBT`s- in an ingenious way- at 50Hz - Discontinuous *blow up* Conduction Mode. 
The Pay Pall invoice said very clearly: 1 Year - No Vault Manufacturer Warrenty.
So far, over 3 month have gone by after I notified EPC, and the seller EV Parts Depot about the failure of the product. I have received mails - nothingh but mails - 1year NO Vault Warrenty means: after one year the manufacturer sends back a reply: 
"hey I said it`s nobodies fault in the warrenty. 

Thank you Zgoouraz


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## Citystromer (May 2, 2009)

Paul doesn`t know what you are refering to talking "current protection". I have adressed this many times, but now answer.


coryrc said:


> This is... unacceptable. I hope you aren't offering a warranty.


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## PZigouras (Jun 5, 2010)

Citystromer said:


> Paul doesn`t know what you are refering to talking "current protection". I have adressed this many times, but now answer.


All our controllers are internally protected, and all are available with adjustable current limiters. Just remember to order the current limiter when you call, if you need one.


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## Guest (Dec 29, 2011)

By the time you have to buy all the accessories to make it sorta work you would have spent enough to by a Soliton1 that has is all in one and is reliable and proven even on the track. 

pzigouras, it's time to go away, far away, far far away. We have no bones about calling you on your BULL SHIT CONTROLLERS THAT MY GRANDSON COULD BUILD BETTER. 

GUYS, IT'S TIME TO SHUT THIS SUCKER DOWN.


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## PZigouras (Jun 5, 2010)

gottdi said:


> By the time you have to buy all the accessories to make it sorta work you would have spent enough to by a Soliton1 that has is all in one and is reliable and proven even on the track.
> 
> pzigouras, it's time to go away, far away, far far away. We have no bones about calling you on your BULL SHIT CONTROLLERS THAT MY GRANDSON COULD BUILD BETTER.
> 
> GUYS, IT'S TIME TO SHUT THIS SUCKER DOWN.


WRONG, Wrong, wrong. You know NOTHING about our controllers, and you never will. 

It's not a good idea to give an evaluation of a controller that have never owned, used, or even SEEN in real life. Unlike you, I actually TEST and EVALUATE controllers before I give my opioions about them. You should try that sometime.

This has been the best year for yet for EPC, and 2012 looks like it will be even better. And I'm sorry to say, all your lies are never going to change that.


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## Guest (Dec 29, 2011)

We here have seen enough to say what we say. Your a scam artist and prey on unsuspecting people. It will catch up to you. The garbage you claim is just that. Garbage. 

Time to shut you down.


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## Guest (Dec 29, 2011)

You give answers exactly as expected. Any one who is like you will always complain and cry when called on the BS. 

Sorry dude but you have been called and you have been unable to justify your BS. Your controllers have been tested and opened up and shown to be exactly what they are. 

Proof is now in your court or go away from here and go scam elsewhere. 

I pity any unsuspecting soul who gets taken by your low cost bull shit.


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## PZigouras (Jun 5, 2010)

gottdi said:


> We here have seen enough to say what we say. Your a scam artist and prey on unsuspecting people. It will catch up to you. The garbage you claim is just that. Garbage.
> 
> Time to shut you down.


Let me repeat: You have seen NOTHING.

These are the REAL components, not the ones you made up in your head:

http://www.epc-corporation.com/rebuild_kit.JPG

Out of the hundreds of customers we've done business with this year, we've only had one complaint that was not resolved. Now that THAT to the bank


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## Guest (Dec 29, 2011)

Say what? We got your crap plastered all over the place here. Where have you been?


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## Guest (Dec 29, 2011)

You call that a rebuild kit? What a joke. If your stuff is so good you should not have a rebuild kit to sell. Take that to the bank.


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## Guest (Dec 29, 2011)

Still you respond like a thief thats been caught. 

Time to shut you down


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## Ace_bridger (Nov 22, 2011)

Paul

You need to realise that you don't know how to design or build a controller which is suitable for an EV application.

More importantly, you need to recognise that your controllers could fail and result in death, or deaths, God forbid.

Do the world a favour and follow Major's points, one thru six. He has offered you very good advice as to how to develop product professionally. If you really want to play a part in the EV control market then follow his advice.

In the meantime, please go away.


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## Guest (Dec 29, 2011)

I am a beta tester. Send one my way and I will be happy to run it in my Ghia and give it a spin then return it along with my take on the controller. If your willing to do that then it will either make or break your efforts. What I see does not bode well. If you think it will pass muster then send one along straight away. I am sure you can sacrifice one for third party beta testing. 120 volt version will do. This will give good performance and will tax the amperage in stop and go traffic to give the poor controller. I will need one plug-n-play. I can provide precharge and contractors and DC DC and all that. I just need a complete ready to go controller. I have beta tested plenty and one I really like. The other is OK and the third is yet to be finalized. One more to the list will be a piece of cake. 

Just because I call BS does not mean I won't give it a fair shake. But I won't pay to beta test. Customers should not be beta testers and the company should always use third party testers so there is no bias.


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## Citystromer (May 2, 2009)

It's not a good idea to give an evaluation of a controller that have never owned, used, or even SEEN in real life. Unlike you, I actually TEST and EVALUATE controllers before I give my opioions about them. You should try that sometime.

Well, Paul Ziguras you have the unique chance to send your controller in to be tested - not to me but to a senior engeneer of the comunity, you had been asked to do that before- do it now! 

And please: Don`t say "our" controllers there`s only you - show us your technicians, let them explain the current protection - where did they study power electronics? - do you use "desaturation detection" or "RTC detection" you have your own "current detection" patent? You have the knowledge and skills to test power electronic equippment? Where did you study? 
- HV not isolated -as a new design feature? You`re dangerous! And Paul you can`t use a relay for that!

BTW: I owned and operated one of your "engineering marvels" 
I`m planning to show it off at New Years, sparkle shower- the only thing that it`s good for.

If it wasn`t of this very sad character it`d be so funny - 

You do have a talent - sell stuff - sell cars!
but here you´ve got yourself such a bad reputation- if you continue, you`ll make it worse. 
You are trying to cheat people!


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## PZigouras (Jun 5, 2010)

gottdi said:


> I am a beta tester. Send one my way and I will be happy to run it in my Ghia and give it a spin then return it along with my take on the controller. If your willing to do that then it will either make or break your efforts. What I see does not bode well. If you think it will pass muster then send one along straight away. I am sure you can sacrifice one for third party beta testing. 120 volt version will do. This will give good performance and will tax the amperage in stop and go traffic to give the poor controller. I will need one plug-n-play. I can provide precharge and contractors and DC DC and all that. I just need a complete ready to go controller. I have beta tested plenty and one I really like. The other is OK and the third is yet to be finalized. One more to the list will be a piece of cake.
> 
> Just because I call BS does not mean I won't give it a fair shake. But I won't pay to beta test. Customers should not be beta testers and the company should always use third party testers so there is no bias.


Well why didn't you tell me that you were a beta tester!

I think it may be best to try one yourself and post the results. I'll get permission to send one over to you, and we'll see if an "economy" controller can make the ranks...

What type of motor and batteries do you have in that?


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## Guest (Dec 29, 2011)

PZigouras said:


> Well why didn't you tell me that you were a beta tester!
> 
> I think it may be best to try one yourself and post the results. I'll get permission to send one over to you, and we'll see if an "economy" controller can make the ranks...
> 
> What type of motor and batteries do you have in that?


100 AH LiFePO4 Cells and a GE 9" series motor. 120 volt system. Only because that is the current size of my Elcon 3000 charger. I have enough to go to 156 volts but I need another charger. 

Pete


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## Guest (Dec 29, 2011)

Mounted in a 69 VW Ghia. Ghia is still rough but is being used as a test bed for other projects at the moment. I can remove and replace components quickly.


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## Ace_bridger (Nov 22, 2011)

How exciting!! I wonder if the controller will ever appear for testing


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## Guest (Dec 29, 2011)

We shall see. If he contacts me for a mailing address via PM I will give it to him so he can send it along. 

I am mostly concerned with how well it works over how it looks. 

Pete


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## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

$100 says he doesn't send you one, Pete... Anyone want to take the other side on that bet? No???


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## kek_63 (Apr 20, 2008)

Tesseract said:


> $100 says he doesn't send you one, Pete... Anyone want to take the other side on that bet? No???


You will have to find a blind, illiterate forum member to take that bet!!


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## Guest (Dec 30, 2011)

I would myself but I don't want to loose $100. Id rather spend it on a test cell.


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## PZigouras (Jun 5, 2010)

Tesseract said:


> $100 says he doesn't send you one, Pete... Anyone want to take the other side on that bet? No???


Oh, don't bet on it... we have nothing against free publicity. The more people try them, the better.... and the more evaluations on the net, the better.


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

PZigouras said:


> Oh, don't bet on it... we have nothing against free publicity. The more people try them, the better.... and the more evaluations on the net, the better.


Like this? http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showthread.php?t=67203&highlight=controller and http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showpost.php?p=276246&postcount=14


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## PZigouras (Jun 5, 2010)

major said:


> Like this? http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showthread.php?t=67203&highlight=controller and http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showpost.php?p=276246&postcount=14


I don't trust what that guys says any more... he's lied to us too many times.


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

PZigouras said:


> I don't trust what that guys says any more... he's lied to us too many times.


Why would a customer of yours lie? Why would anyone in their right mind believe you?


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## Qer (May 7, 2008)

PZigouras said:


> I don't trust what that guys says any more... he's lied to us too many times.


Now, was it only me that heard that inside my head as if Gollum spoke it, followed by "My preciouuuussss!" ?

I'm probably not awake yet, need more coffee...


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## Jan (Oct 5, 2009)

PZigouras said:


> I don't trust what that guys says any more... he's lied to us too many times.


PZ, how do you power the gate driver? I don't see anything that looks like an isolated power adapter in the pictures posted.


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## PZigouras (Jun 5, 2010)

major said:


> Why would a customer of yours lie? Why would anyone in their right mind believe you?


That's a good question... why would a customer lie... unless someone put them up to this.

We've never had a problem with a customer before this, so we're not making a big deal out of it, but at the same time, I would like to know the truth. And that's kind of hard to find out when the customer lives 3000 miles away.


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## PZigouras (Jun 5, 2010)

Jan said:


> PZ, how do you power the gate driver? I don't see anything that looks like an isolated power adapter in the pictures posted.


I believe that all our gates are run directly from the high-power IGBT driver chip. Power is supplied to the board itself by a large, isolated power supply (the electronics run off the high power side). 

There are some pictures of it on our site; I'll see if I can get you the URL for it, because they are not available from the main menu.


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## Jan (Oct 5, 2009)

PZigouras said:


> Power is supplied to the board itself by a large, isolated power supply (the electronics run off the high power side).
> 
> There are some pictures of it on our site; I'll see if I can get you the URL for it, because they are not available from the main menu.


That large (?) isolated power supply is the thingy I'm unable to locate in the previously posted pictures. I'll wait for fresh and better ones.


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## JRoque (Mar 9, 2010)

Qer said:


> Now, was it only me that heard that inside my head as if Gollum spoke it, followed by "My preciouuuussss!" ?.


Ha! That's funny right there. Me and the voices in my head.... preeeeehciousssss...

JR


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

PZigouras said:


> These are the REAL components, not the ones you made up in your head:
> http://www.epc-corporation.com/rebuild_kit.JPG












Is it just me or are those used modules? What's with a fuse on the G-E? And nice photo of the backsides of any old PCBs. You really know how to impress us


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## Weisheimer (May 11, 2009)

That picture shows nothing but used, and un-matched, IGBT modules.
I have no clue why there is a fuse on the G-E leads.
The top board is the PWM "High Power gate driver" and the bottom board is a cheap DC power supply.
Why bother to glue them together though?

There is something wrong with PZigourass thinking and it can't be said enough.

A Moderator needs to do something here.
He should NOT be allowed to continue to post this dangerous nonsense.


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## Citystromer (May 2, 2009)

PZigouras said:


> That's a good question... why would a customer lie... unless someone put them up to this.
> 
> 1. What is not true?? The pics? (there are more!), the warrenty I`m still waiting on? The many con mails s you gain time to sell more of your bs? - If you want to answer, please, stay with the facts.
> 
> ...


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## frodus (Apr 12, 2008)

Posted more on ebay recently....


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## Guest (Jan 2, 2012)

Ya know, he never did contact me off list yet so he could send me one for evaluation and testing and review. Oh well. 

I like my Synkromotive anyway.


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## Citystromer (May 2, 2009)

JRoque said:


> But it isn't! The perfboard looks like it's from Radio Shack and the PWM circuit is from eBay: http://www.ebay.com/itm/230689834392.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I admit I made a mistake, I looked inside and made photos.


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## jiao2 (Jan 13, 2017)

Does EPC 1000 has H-Bridge inside?


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## charliehorse55 (Sep 23, 2011)

jiao2 said:


> Does EPC 1000 has H-Bridge inside?


No idea, but thank you for necroing this thread. 

I needed the laugh, my god.


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## thenewguy (May 28, 2017)

Are this controllers for dc bushed motors or 3 phase induction motors?


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

thenewguy said:


> Are this controllers for dc bushed motors or 3 phase induction motors?





charliehorse55 said:


> No idea, but thank you for necroing this thread.
> 
> I needed the laugh, my god.


Another new member's first post. Think PZig is behind this?

EPC products are crap. Read the thread.


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## thenewguy (May 28, 2017)

major said:


> Another new member's first post. Think PZig is behind this?
> 
> EPC products are crap. Read the thread.


Well, I just came here because I was looking for info about what type of motors people use in EV converssions... and this controller EP1000 looks adecuate for my project so I was looking for more details on this. I hope somebody can help me with this info.


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

thenewguy said:


> Well, I just came here because I was looking for info about what type of motors people use in EV converssions... and this controller EP1000 looks adecuate for my project so I was looking for more details on this. I hope somebody can help me with this info.


OK, cool. Then use the info in this thread. EPC is crap. The main man, PZigouras, a member of this forum has, by far, the worst reputation of any. You can verify this by clicking on community in the navigation bar and then click on reputation twice. A lot of members here have worked for years to help new EVers and PZig/EPC is about the only truly rotten apple still among us. Avoid him and EPC at all cost. 

Welcome to this board. Hopefully future discussions with you will be more pleasant. None will be more important. 

major


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## thenewguy (May 28, 2017)

major said:


> OK, cool. Then use the info in this thread. EPC is crap. The main man, PZigorus, a member of this forum has, by far, the worst reputation of any. You can verify this by clicking on community in the navigation bar and then click on reputation twice. A lot of members here have worked for years to help new EVers and PZig/EPC is about the only truly rotten apple still among us. Avoid him and EPC at all cost.
> 
> Welcome to this board. Hopefully future discussions with you will be more pleasant. None will be more important.
> 
> major


Your direct words are really appreciated. You just save me a lot of money and research time. Thanks a lot. We need more straight people like you. thanks to this forum too. What would be a good kit for ev conversion?


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

thenewguy said:


> Your direct words are really appreciated. You just save me a lot of money and research time. Thanks a lot. We need more straight people like you. thanks to this forum too. What would be a good kit for ev conversion?


GOOD. First thing: take it off this thread. There are a couple of stickies for newbies explaining how to start. An introduction or build thread may be in order. But leave this thread, please.

major


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