# Lets talk parallel hybrids



## skullbearer (Jul 9, 2008)

woah woah, lets get our units clear here so they work out mathematically.


Watts (W) = Power Power is Force

WattHours (Wh) = Energy Energy is well... Power over Time


See the difference? 250W per mile at 60mph is NOT 250W x 60 in Energy draw... its 250Wh, or 250W for 1 hour, which at 60mph is 60 miles.


So what you need is not a motor that produces tens of thousands of HP but rather something that produces 250W + inefficiencies(I'm just going to use an arbitrary 10%) so 250W + 25W which is 275W. Every hour of this production will give you (sans the inefficiency) 250Wh, which is what you want in order to equal this 250Wh per Hour draw at 60mph.


So, to answer your question simply, find a motor that will reliably and efficiently produce about 300W, or at the Google referenced conversion of 745.7Watt = 1hp you need about a 1/3-1/2hp motor. Which is a really low power to do 60mph...


Check out the Wiki here

According to our handy Wiki, at 55mph the average vehicle requires 10kW of Power output, which means to travel at 55mph for an hour (or to travel 55miles at 55mph) you require 10kWh of Energy output.


Lets say you use this number instead which is more reasonable, then you plug in our conversion...


10kW x 1hp/0.7457kW or spelled out is 10 Kilowatts times 1 Horsepower divided by 0.7456 Kilowatts (which is 745.7W) the Kilowatt units cancel and you have Horsepower, which in this instance turns out to be:

*13.4hp*

So again to put it simply, to maintain a 0 battery draw at 55mph for the average car your ICE generator must produce about 13.4 Horsepower plus what is needed to account for inefficiencies so I'd say about 15-18 Horsepower.

To optimize this, you need to get an engine that is running right in the middle of its power band at WOT (Wide Open Throttle) or very nearly to produce that power band, so match it carefully. Low compression naturally aspirated engines will also prove to be more emissions friendly due to lower cylinder temp, and less likely to break down due to lower pressures... although a higher compression one will generally produce better fuel economy due to better power efficiency, though higher cylinder temp and pressure will make it dirtier and more likely to develop a gasket failure.


There are tradeoffs... realistically though small generators of that power of either type will last many many years.


----------



## aeroscott (Jan 5, 2008)

skullbearer said:


> woah woah, lets get our units clear here so they work out mathematically.
> 
> 
> Watts (W) = Power Power is Force
> ...


Ioku , had it almost right 250 watts / mile should be 250 watt hours / mile ( I leave of the hour too ) . that's 250 wh for each mile X the miles traveled


----------



## todayican (Jul 31, 2008)

I definetly think you are on the right track ;-)
tshtrikes.com 

I am addressing the "average" power draw (I was going off an old report that a ford taurus uses 16hp to go 65) by building a 3 wheeler with good aero.

we will finally be doing some road testing today, its been under construction for about 3 months now.

Ill let you all know...


----------



## Electric_Rav (Aug 11, 2008)

Ioku, I was thinking of doing something very similar to what you are thinking. I still may, I have a meeting with a dune buggy builder locally to figure out a good way to parallel a gas engine and an electric motor. 

I roughly calculated it would take about 22hp to keep my Toyota Rav 4 going at 55mph. However, if I add extra weight of batteries, passengers and hills I think that will be stretching it. This is on gas only directly coupled to the transmission and I figure adding some assist with the electric motor would make it acceptable again. So for a long time planned this method but as I started to noodle this out and got caught up in the fact I would have to go through gears again if I used the gas motor. Then I thought of adding a slip clutch to the gas engine and couple that to the second shaft on a dual shaft electric motor then I found the gas engine I wanted to use spins the wrong way. Not to mention I finally took a tape measure to the engine compartment and found that it would be tough to get both an electric motor and a 22hp gas engine in there!

So now I'm back to doing electric only with perhaps a detachable genset and then purchasing a second car for trips beyond battery range unless the meeting with the dune buggy guy turns out fruitful.

One other thought. I went down the path of diesel engines too and found that the emissions on those things are terrible. Generators and other small gas engines are not that much better. I committed to myself that if I would use a gas engine that I would fully investigate a way to cut the emissions to a car like level. I'm not sure that is even possible. I've even thought of using an engine out of a Geo but then reality strikes and engineering a way for both gas and electric to live under the hood and drive one transmission is a tough task for a geek like me that does nothing but type on my computer all day.

How were you thinking of coupling the two together? 
Has anybody actually been successful at this?


----------



## Schmism (Aug 16, 2008)

look at kubota diesel engines for a power plant.

they are proven power plant for both standby stationary generators and there use in the kubuta compact utility tractor (CUT) market.

http://www.kubotaengine.com/products/nsm/index.html

13-24hp engines. with dry weights of 117lbs-153lbs i think they are a real possibility for power plants.

you can check the kubota tractor forums for ideas of the kind of fuel economy they get. for ballpark, my slightly larger 33hp CUT gets about 1 gal per hr at full RPM/full load.

these are the same kubota engines that they are using for the 100mpg car.


----------



## 1clue (Jul 21, 2008)

You have to scroll the list, but here's some engines:

http://www.northerntool.com/webapp/...ontractorb2b&cm_ite=industrial diesel engines


The key is to search on "light industrial diesel engine"


----------



## Ioku (Sep 27, 2007)

Well I just realized I got my terms confused here I meant to say series hybrids, as in an engine connected to a generator to make power for the motor. Sorry about that. 

But thanks for clearing up my math for me looks like I can use a smaller engine than I thought. And thanks for the links to the Kabota diesel's thats just what I was looking for. 

So now you know that I am talking about a series set up what size of gen head would I need to get about 250 watts per mile, and would it be best to get something thats a little bigger than what I need or would that just drag the engine down more.


----------



## skullbearer (Jul 9, 2008)

The reason gens are so bad emission wise is they are nearly all 2-stroke. He'd need to look into 4 stroke.


Does anyone know if DiesOtto generators exist? I've read in Motorcyclist before that DiesOtto engines were used in racing for a time by one race team, but that regulations were changed to exclude them since the fuel efficiency was so much higher than competitors.


For those who haven't heard of it, a 'DiesOtto' engine is one that can run as both a spark ignition and a compression ignition system, using gasoline.


My other question is does anyone know of any 5-stroke generators? That's where it squirts water into the cylinder on the extra stroke and the steam provides additional power and efficiency.


----------



## Guest (Aug 28, 2008)

skullbearer said:


> My other question is does anyone know of any 5-stroke generators? That's where it squirts water into the cylinder on the extra stroke and the steam provides additional power and efficiency.


I don't think these are in the public domain yet. I have heard and did some reading on how it works but again no clear information and I believe it is considered a 6 stroke and not a 5. It is an interesting proposition if it really works as stated. Would help cool the engine too. 

Pete : )


----------



## manic_monkey (Jun 24, 2008)

skullbearer said:


> The reason gens are so bad emission wise is they are nearly all 2-stroke. He'd need to look into 4 stroke.


modern 2 strokes use direct injection and are very good on emmisions. also, 2 stroke engines are very light and simple. companies which make things like lawm mower engines and generators just use the oldest cheapest technology they can, which doesnt help the reputation of the 2 stroke.


----------



## skullbearer (Jul 9, 2008)

The reason I bring it up at all was that I know that they have also been used in the 80's in some experimental racing motors that were later restricted to the equivalency of banning as well... at least, this is according to the same Motorcyclist article, in the TDC section. Love that guy.


----------



## Ioku (Sep 27, 2007)

Well I'm not really worried about emissions I don’t even have to test for it here and I don’t plan on registering the car as having any sort of gas engine in it I’ll just drop the gen set in afterwards, I want it to be something that could be removed easily anyways. And from reading about those Kubota diesels they seem to be quite clean and if I can make my own bio diesel then it would be cleaner than most cars. 

But I’m still not sure what size generator head I would need to go with the engine from what I understand generator heads are rated by the hour so a 10 kw generator will produce 10 kw in one hour, is this correct. So if I was using 250 watts to travel one mile at 60 mph what size generator would I need to break even.


----------



## skullbearer (Jul 9, 2008)

manic_monkey said:


> modern 2 strokes use direct injection and are very good on emmisions. also, 2 stroke engines are very light and simple. companies which make things like lawm mower engines and generators just use the oldest cheapest technology they can, which doesnt help the reputation of the 2 stroke.


Apparently I missed that post, my previous one was about 5/6-stroke engines.

I'd forgotten about the modern DI 2-stroke, and in CA you can actual find those on any lawn mower made after a certain date... I'm pretty sure it was 2000 but I know they made some weird loophole provisions for overstock and such, but anyone MANUFACTURED after 2000 should have it. So you could use an engine from one of those CA models.


EDIT:

Speaking more directly on parallel hybrids... I need to squeeze extra mileage out of my '87 Honda CH250 Elite (a maxiscooter). Currently she runs like a winner with only 4800 miles on it and 1500 the last two months from me, and I'll be putting another... about 3500-5000 on it by the end of the year. Anyway, my point is mechanical problems are not an issue, but I can only squeeze about 60mpg at 65mph which is my preferred commute speed, and I actually was able to do some way-to-much-free-time testing in parking lots and found out that I'm using significant amounts of gas in stop-n-go traffic (which is half my 70mile round trip commute).

By driving at a lower speed in town and preventing stops or at least reducing the amount of full or nearly full stops I needed brought me up to 64mpg, and reducing my cruising on the back roads from 65mph to 55mph brought me additionally to 74ish mpg (which is more than people claim for it, so I assume since its not a wheelie popper people are heavy with the throttle, I know I was).


I know that under cruising conditions the ICE is about as good as I'm going to get with this (can't afford batts for a conversion), but I'm wondering if I can't turn the bike into either a:

- psuedo-hybrid with a paralleled electric assist for stop an go using only capacitors that would be charging under the idle at a light...

-or-

- series hybrid where I toss the cvt tran (which is tiny and on the outside), slap a gen on the ICE make it a rear wheel-motor drive or use a small pancake motor on the side (so I can still make left turns) and then mount the caps on both sides of the bike on the outer panelling (I'll just paint them to match).


I'm wondering if you guys think it would even be worth it? I'd be using capacitance only and later possibly add some batteries to it. There isn't room for batts right now except on the outer side panels and those won't take too much weight, I don't want to overly modify the bike itself just swap some parts here, just in case I can't find a fair price buyer for the converted version... though I could swap the passenger foot rests for pegs and put batteries in the front gap and use it more like a motorcycle (that or just straddle the batteries I guess, lots of good bolts I can expose without modification and use to hold a mounting system).


Anyhoo, I'd obviously need 55mph cruising speed, this would initially be provided with energy by the ICE exclusively, buffered and stored in some good capacitors.


List of Needs
----------------

8" or smaller pancake motor producing enough constant power for 55mph cruising -or- 10" rim wheel motor that is capable of those speeds and power outputs (this is a 250cc single scooter)

1 or more capacitors no bigger than about 6 cans of lighter fluid that hold enough power to get it nearly or all the way to cruising speed, or at minimum to 40mph for the stop-n-go

controller that's small, doesn't have regen braking, DC system obviously, has throttle control programming for acceleration and can handle the power.



Ok, I know there's more to it due to voltage and such which might require a large bunch of small caps, but I'm wondering if this would give me any appreciable bonus or minus to my economy?


----------



## evcars (Mar 15, 2008)

My question is how do you guys plan on converting the generator's AC power to DC? An inverter? 
Would this power produced by the generator be running directly to the controller or is it going to the batteries first and then the controller?


----------



## skullbearer (Jul 9, 2008)

xtreme cartz said:


> My question is how do you guys plan on converting the generator's AC power to DC? An inverter?
> Would this power produced by the generator be running directly to the controller or is it going to the batteries first and then the controller?


Usually it goes through the battery charging system I believe, though the controller itself will have some capacitance type stuff built into it in order to smooth out power inconsistencies.

Correct me if I'm wrong.


----------



## Electric_Rav (Aug 11, 2008)

If the generator feeds the charger and the charger feeds the batteries and controller then I can't imagine the generator contributing effectively. Using this method looks good in theory but in my case where I'm estimating a 40 mile range with batteries alone a generator through an on-board charger will only give me about another 6 to 10 miles. Then at the end of that 50 mile drive I would either have to plug in and charge for 4 to 6 hours or run the generator for 4 to 6 hours so I could go another 40 miles. If my thinking is correct, I don't think this is a good way of propelling a vehicle with the goal of having an unlimited range. Depends on your goal I guess. If you only need a 10 mile bump then go for it I suppose. That is all I wanted initially but my perameters have changed.

My conversion (if I can ever get the money to get started) will have a small engine of some kind and its output will contribute to the drive train directly. My requirements would be an engine that could meet or exceed emission laws and propel the vehicle at least 50mph with gas only. Anything less than 40 miles would be electric only. (which would be 50% of the time for me)


----------



## skullbearer (Jul 9, 2008)

Just because something provides power to the battery pack doesn't mean it has to first charge the battery and then discharge it.


For example, the battery pack in EV's and the starter battery in ICE cars are all part of a energized circuit, powered by an alternator and regulated by the charge/discharge features of the battery.

Extra power will go into the battery at a rate dependent on the amps and volts, in a 12v system its 13.5-14V and say, I take a car with a 100amp alternator. The electrical energy goes where it can most easily, which is going to be non-battery equipment, then anything extra left over has nowhere to go but into the battery.


The same way in an EV, if your generator is producing less power than you need to drive the vehicle, it won't charge the batteries at all, because all that power will be used in drive, and the battpack will supplement. If it produces just the right amount, the battery will do nothing, and if it produces more, the battery will charge.


----------



## Gavin1977 (Sep 2, 2008)

Ioku said:


> Well I'm not really worried about emissions I don’t even have to test for it here and I don’t plan on registering the car as having any sort of gas engine in it I’ll just drop the gen set in afterwards, I want it to be something that could be removed easily anyways. And from reading about those Kubota diesels they seem to be quite clean and if I can make my own bio diesel then it would be cleaner than most cars.
> 
> But I’m still not sure what size generator head I would need to go with the engine from what I understand generator heads are rated by the hour so a 10 kw generator will produce 10 kw in one hour, is this correct. So if I was using 250 watts to travel one mile at 60 mph what size generator would I need to break even.


Ioku, I have no experience (yet) of EV's, but I can crunch the numbers for you. 

You need to get the units converted correctly to make a proper comparison.

If you have a 10kw generator, this is a measure of instantaneous power, and it has no time element, to convert to energy in Kwh, you multiply by the time in hours. So for example if you ran your 10Kw genny for 5 hours, then in energy terms, it would have produced 50KwH.

Your EV does not consume 250Watts but 250 WATT HOURS to travel one mile at 60mph. To convert to power, use Power (Kw) = Energy (KwH) / time (in hours)

At 60mph, your EV will use 0.25KwH in 1 minute, or in 1/60th of an hour. Plug those numbers in to the above and you get Power = 0.25 / (1/60) = 15Kw.

In order to run your hybrid ev at 60mph without draining the batteries, you would need a generator of at least 15kw (and bigger once inefficiencies are taken into account and you probably want to charge the batteries as well. If you allow 20% (finger in the air) for inefficiencies and for a slow charge into the batteries as well, that gives a size of 18kW)


----------



## skullbearer (Jul 9, 2008)

Right, you're using 250Wh x 60miles = 15kWh/hour

Which means that you need 15kW of constant power (actually used).

I agree with the 18kW total. I think I did the math incorrectly before (because I always forget about the time conversion)


----------



## Ioku (Sep 27, 2007)

Cool thanks for clearing up the math for me, so dose anyone know where one would buy a 18 kw gen head, I've looked around but haven't found much of just a gen head. I did find some around that size on ebay but they were some Chinese ones made of iron and weighed like 300 to 400 pounds, way too heavy. would there be a way to turn maybe a 7 or 8 inch dc motor into a gen that would get me down to around 100 pounds.


----------



## ww321q (Mar 28, 2008)

I'm betting a 18 kw diesel generator is going to weigh in at 700 or 800 lbs . No way around it . J.W.


----------



## Shocked! (Jun 30, 2008)

Hijack!

I must - please allow me this question - Reading as much as I can, I want to convert at one if not two vehicles. I'm the guy who asked about the Chevy van conversion recently. 

ANYway.....after reading this hydrid post it hit me like a ton of bricks. 

I own this Kuboto. 

http://s115.photobucket.com/albums/n313/IndyWinner/?action=view&current=Dieselengandgen.jpg

http://s115.photobucket.com/albums/n313/IndyWinner/?action=view&current=Dieseltag.jpg


Got a deal on it and decided it would be great as a house back up when the "big" earthquake hits. (I'm in So.Cal.) Right? Well.....then I read this post and am wondering.....

Please advise - what's your thoughts on the ratings on this diesel/generator and what kind of motor would it support?


----------



## ga2500ev (Apr 20, 2008)

6 kW probably isn't going to get you unlimited distance. You'll still be using more energy that you can provide.

How much does it weigh?

ga2500ev


----------



## Shocked! (Jun 30, 2008)

Don't know exact weight. Guessing seven hundred-ish.


----------



## Ioku (Sep 27, 2007)

ww321q said:


> I'm betting a 18 kw diesel generator is going to weigh in at 700 or 800 lbs . No way around it . J.W.


I don’t think it has to weigh that much I think most do just because they are meant to be stationary to weight doesn’t matter. 

I did some searching for diesels and gen heads and found these, if you use this Kubota 24 hp engine http://www.kubotaengine.com/products/nsm/d902-e3_2.html at about 160 pounds and 2 of these 10,000 watt gen heads http://www.northerntool.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/product_6970_8795_8795 at about 130 pounds each, that would be 420 pounds, still heavy but less than 600 to 700 and I bet you could get the gen head much lighter with one that was purpose built to be light wieght.


----------



## Shocked! (Jun 30, 2008)

I want a stand alone EV - but owning this Kubuto and generator has me asking these questions. So, I might run a hybrid too. The one post said my generator won't charge a decent battery back. I figure I'd want at least a 144 volt system. 

But Ineed enough knowledge before I tear this unit apart. 


help !

thanks


----------



## wino1308 (Sep 5, 2008)

*Re: Lets talk series hybrids*

It might be worth looking at small Japanese agricutural tractors - Kubota, Iseki etc
I have seen some with 70hp diesels that looked quite small - don't know what they weighed though.
Sorry - I didn't realize tractor motors had already been covered.
Great minds think alike.


----------



## wino1308 (Sep 5, 2008)

Why don't you make your own? Have a look at some DIY windmill sites to see how.


----------



## Shocked! (Jun 30, 2008)

Well, to be clear, for me, if the Kubuto/Gen I own isn't good enough to use I'll be back to EV only.


----------



## aeroscott (Jan 5, 2008)

Shocked! said:


> I want a stand alone EV - but owning this Kubuto and generator has me asking these questions. So, I might run a hybrid too. The one post said my generator won't charge a decent battery back. I figure I'd want at least a 144 volt system.
> 
> But Ineed enough knowledge before I tear this unit apart.
> 
> ...


don't tear into it . stick it on a trailer. test the system , put a scale on the trailer to determine the added drag . and like magic you will know a lot more then most of us (me at least). A super light generator is not magic just spin the generator fast as hell and forget 60 hz. start thinking 400 hz.


----------



## Shocked! (Jun 30, 2008)

It's already a stand alone unit. Made for welding.


----------



## aeroscott (Jan 5, 2008)

Shocked! said:


> It's already a stand alone unit. Made for welding.


wire welders run on c v at about 30 volts . if stick c c , the old ones have a large air gap so open circuit voltage can go as high as 80 v . this makes the generator less efficient and under load volts will sage to the 20's . newer cv/cc welders use electronics to get the cc drop (slope ) and will be higher efficiency . ps if you have the ac generator option ( 10 kw ) your set .


----------



## colt1911 (Aug 19, 2008)

so gents, Could this be used in a LARGE truck? Say a 15' box truck with 7000lbs cargo capacity? I'm thinking large batt. pack(256 v) for in town, and generator for highway. No, I haven't done math to calc. Kwh draw but, it sounds feasible enough to investigate.


----------



## Ioku (Sep 27, 2007)

> A super light generator is not magic just spin the generator fast as hell and forget 60 hz. start thinking 400 hz.


Do you know of a good place to get info on generators, I know there has to be ways to make them light if I could get my needed 18 kw out of a gen head that weighed say only 50 pounds or even 100 this would be very doable.


----------



## aeroscott (Jan 5, 2008)

hard to find but commercial /military 400 hz , 3 phase , 200 volt ,3600 -8000 rpm , surplus aircraft centers , commercial aircraft wrecks , military manuals , nobody wants this stuff . ie cheap . relays , breakers , regulators . need to come up with a regulator so you could run the generator at lower speed to better work with the engine when loads were less .


----------



## Shocked! (Jun 30, 2008)

Gentlemen: Here's the size of my unit. Well, you know what I mean. 

http://s115.photobucket.com/albums/...urrent=69firebirdgeneratorcememntmixer017.jpg

The blue box. So the diesle and the generator are about three feet plus a hair.


----------



## aeroscott (Jan 5, 2008)

nice unit , does it do wire (cv) how much power as a generator ac 120 v and or 240 v 3 phase or 1 phase .ps most of these are 3600 rpm


----------



## Shocked! (Jun 30, 2008)

See previous links a few posts ago for data tag. I'm not real hip on everything electronic yet so it's easier for you to see the tag.

thanks.


----------



## Schmism (Aug 16, 2008)

colt1911 said:


> so gents, Could this be used in a LARGE truck? Say a 15' box truck with 7000lbs cargo capacity? I'm thinking large batt. pack(256 v) for in town, and generator for highway. No, I haven't done math to calc. Kwh draw but, it sounds feasible enough to investigate.


i think it would be really nice to use surpluss forklift bats. but theres no way you would get them in a car, but your box truck idea has potental.


----------



## skullbearer (Jul 9, 2008)

Gentlemen, if you would like, there is a small Army/Navy/Air Force surplus store by the college I attend.

I've never been inside, but it says 'we order!' on their window. If you guys want to give me a short list, I can pop in and see what's available, and how much. I can figure out the shipping and stuff too if you can't get it at a place near you.


----------



## Ioku (Sep 27, 2007)

Well I wont be ready to buy anything yet I still don't have the money but I would be interested in what they have, I'd like to know the size, weight, and price for a gen head with an out put of around 15 to 20 kw. of course lightest is best so maybe something out of an airplane would be best.


----------



## skullbearer (Jul 9, 2008)

Ioku said:


> Well I wont be ready to buy anything yet I still don't have the money but I would be interested in what they have, I'd like to know the size, weight, and price for a gen head with an out put of around 15 to 20 kw. of course lightest is best so maybe something out of an airplane would be best.


By gen head I assume you mean the generator, not the engine.


----------



## Ioku (Sep 27, 2007)

yeah, not sure if "gen haed" is really the right term, but yeah not the engine.


----------



## Shocked! (Jun 30, 2008)

Hey, thanks for that. You're right. The van certainly has unlimited battery space. Looking for motors now.


----------



## todayican (Jul 31, 2008)

Think this would work for an 84v system needing about 60 to 80 amps for highway cruise?

http://cgi.ebay.com/HighAmp-PMA-Per...yZ121837QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem


----------



## Ioku (Sep 27, 2007)

thats a cool little generator, it says it can produce up to 275 amps, but at what voltage? 

I also found this chart interesting 
POWER DRAW CHART 
0 to 300 Watts - Required RPM for proper cooling fan operation = 0 to 300 rpm + 
300 to 800 Watts - Required RPM for proper cooling fan operation = 1400 rpm + 
800 to 1500 Watts - Required RPM for proper cooling fan operation = 2500 rpm + 
1500 to 2500 Watts - Required RPM for proper cooling fan operation = 3700 rpm + 
2500 to 5000 Watts - Required RPM for proper cooling fan operation = 5500 rpm + 
5000 to 7000 Watts - Required RPM for proper cooling fan operation = 8500 rpm + 
7000 to 10,000 Watts - Required RPM for proper cooling fan operation = 11,000 rpm + 
10,000 to 14,000 Watts - Required RPM for proper cooling fan operation = 18,000 rpm + 
14,000 to 16,000 Watts - Required RPM for proper cooling fan operation = 25,000 rpm + 

14,000 to 16,000 watts sounds very impressive to come from a unit that only weighs 11 pounds I just wounder how true this is, and if it is how long can it keep that up before burning out maybe if you used 2 or 3 of them you would have enough to power a average car, I'd like to get more info on this.


----------



## todayican (Jul 31, 2008)

Ok, so here goes...

I am ready to start seriously laying out trike #4 
Lots of questions and theories, can everyone help me with some of the design questions?

This one will be ridiculously light (about 600 to 700 pounds with 60ah of thundersky batteries)

I will use a front end from a sprint race car (straight axle, very light, about 100 pounds for the whole front end, brakes, steering, wheels and all)

the front end will lend itself well to aero, I can do a "wing" fairing on the axle, wheelpants on the wheels, and a really slick main body. should have a drag coefficient of something close to nuthin.

It will be fully enclosed low slung 1 seater (Think electrathon, but a little more practical)

I want to use one of these ac drive setups: http://www.thunderstruck-ev.com/AC_drive_performance.htm running at 72v

and a 4 to 6hp diesel turning one of these: http://cgi.ebay.com/Wind-Turbine-Pe...MA-SCS24V_W0QQitemZ300255968144QQcmdZViewItem

(or something similar, to match the volt / amp output. there are several different ones out there for the windmill folks.

So here are some questions:

I imagine if the ac drive system is anywhere near the claimed output, were looking at an eco- screamer on par with tesla and t-rex when wanted.

if you took a slicker then slick, lightweight three wheeler and pointed it down a highway, what kind of amp draw are we looking at at 75 mph? 20? 30? 50?

and as a hybrid, the kind with a generator on the ice (paralell?) what kind of efficiency am I looking at motor to generator to controller to motor?

I was also wondering about having multiple "modes" for example "charge mode" where the ice is simply charging the batteries (can do this while parked too) 

and in charge mode, can the charger "put in" amps while the vehicle is driving at low speeds and "taking them out"

If the ice / generator has enough output to drive the vehicle at speed on the highway, I wonder if I could just "go direct" to the motor (using the motors throttle to modulate speed) and save an effiency losing step?

Lots of questions, but it sure would be nice to build something that could do dougnuts in the parking lot (and make the resulting youtube videos) in a vehicle that can serve its primary mission of getting 1 person wherever they want to go at a reasonably high speed (75mph) and burning ridiulusly little fuel.

all for about $8k is my guess.


----------



## aeroscott (Jan 5, 2008)

Yaaaah , I like the front end idea . yes you can charge at lower or higher levels then consumption . been thinking along the same lines . Yanmar makes 1 cylinder direct injection diesels . Differant sizes 3 to 8 hp . Haze a german diesel see Great Northen mail order .


----------



## skullbearer (Jul 9, 2008)

Sounds like a freaking sweet ride.


In regards to the surplus stuff, I'm going to try and go by this Friday. My classes get out plenty early and I won't be starving (I go to my fiance's for food right after class normally). They should be open.

There are also a lot of small engine/lawnmower/generator shops around the same area. I'm going to print out the locations of a few and if I have extra time I'll just check out the availability of diesels and ethanol sealed small engines or gens for you guys. A lot of these places rebuild old motors with modern parts so we'll see.


So far the only request I got to check for specifically was a 15-20kW generator (no engine).


----------



## todayican (Jul 31, 2008)

If you come across a small diesel (about 5hp) let me know


----------



## Schmism (Aug 16, 2008)

todayican said:


> If you come across a small diesel (about 5hp) let me know


 would you prefer the 4.6 hp or the 7 hp? http://www.northerntool.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/product_6970_344_344


----------



## todayican (Jul 31, 2008)

for a minimal vehicle, I am guessing 4.6 (the Hatz seems pricy compared t the chineese units on eBay. Does anyone have experience with them side by side as far as quality?

Ill know more hopefully tonight (Were doing the first "electric / diesel handoff" test with the 2 seater ( tshtrikes.com) 

The hope is to drive the car to 40, start the diesel and have it power the car to highway speed.

Ill let everyone know.


----------



## Shocked! (Jun 30, 2008)

Very nice little diesel engine!
Thanks for posting it.


----------



## hardym (Apr 2, 2008)

I think another way of looking at range extention is to just put a generator in the back of your EV pickup truck and plug it it.
I do this for long rides, where I'm sure I will run out and wont have power when i get there.

I have a 4000W 220V generator that plugs in while driving to my Zivan NG3. There is just barely enuf power out of the generator to keep the circuit breaker on the generator from tripping. 
Anyway, this configuration does NOT provide much power add-on while driving. I may be driving for only 30-40 minutes before the pack is empty. The generator adds only 15A or so. It takes 100+ amps to run on the highway, which would take about a 15000W generator, and some way to apply all that power to the vehicle (not an easy task).

My guess is that my 4000W generator by itself is enuf to keep the car moving at about 10 mph if the pack was empty.

However, if I pull over, get a beer, wait a couple hours for the generator to recharge the truck, I can get home.

Mark.
http://www.evalbum.com/1352


----------



## Electric_Rav (Aug 11, 2008)

hardym said:


> My guess is that my 4000W generator by itself is enuf to keep the car moving at about 10 mph if the pack was empty.


This is precisely what I have calculated as I plan to convert my Rav 4. If I can ever get my conversion started I plan to use a Solectria ac24 and a vtwin honda or a 3 cylinder diesel but not to run a generator. The motor's output will be parrelled with the electric motor's shaft via a clutch. I can run electric only, gas only or both. I also expec to be able to tap into the regen braking capabilites by puting the trasmission in nutral and running the engine to turn the motor to replenish the pack if a wall outlet is not availible. I'm not sure whether I can do that for long though without something overheating. I don't think the regen feature was meant to run down a hill for an hour at a time. Anyway, I did the math and I just cannot see how adding a generator and all the power conversions is going to work. It hit me like a ton of bricks the other day when I was looking at a surplus battery charger that had the output I would need to cruze at 65mpg and the thing must have weighed 800 pounds!

I've checked my milage logs over the last 3 months and found I'm driving more than I though. About 95 miles on average. I work out of my car in that I don't drive it to an office. I drive 20 miles at 65mpg then let it sit for an hour, drive about 4 miles and let it sit for an hour, drive 12 miles then let it sit, do that 3 or four more times then the ride home is 20 miles at 65mph. I've been wrestling with to convert at all since the best I'm going to get is 40 miles with lead acid. My hope is that I will convert and in 2 or three years lithium batteries will be affordable enough to double my range. I hope.


----------



## aeroscott (Jan 5, 2008)

the 800 lbs. charger would not be needed . the generator would have diodes just like a car alternator and run at a battery voltage . sounds like you can run as a generator on your main motor , that's great . GM built a car called a Precept with 3 cylinder diesel , li-ion 40 kw pack , 92 mpg .


----------

