# The Aptera is back! Maybe.



## Deane (Mar 21, 2020)

Searching though this forum on EV news I see the latest news is from 2013. Apparently the original inventors are attempting to bring it back. This time there is far more interest in electric vehicles so it might work. They are taking $100 deposits and have a range of options you can pre-select. According to a Google search result I found, they have over 10,000 deposits as of March 2021 and over 2500 investors. They are not taking any more investors after Dec 31 so jump now if interested. Here is their new website:








Aptera Motors


Aptera is the world’s first Solar Electric Vehicle that requires no charging for most daily use - giving you the freedom to do more with less impact on the planet.




www.aptera.us





Deane


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## remy_martian (Feb 4, 2019)

It's classified as a motorcycle in many places. I'm not so sure how viable they will be. 

They definitely need to poop or get off the pot after 8 years of sitting on theirs hands. Seems like they don't know how and that transition is half the battle.


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## ishiwgao (May 5, 2011)

remy_martian said:


> It's classified as a motorcycle in many places. I'm not so sure how viable they will be.


why do you think it's not viable when it's classified as a motorcycle?


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## remy_martian (Feb 4, 2019)

It's in that awkward place between overpriced motorcycle and compromised "car"

The imminent Chinese offerings may kill it, much like they killed pricing on everything they all ran to play in (looking at you, solar panels). "Cheaper is better", f*ck margins, staying in business, and R&D reserves. Compromised cars will be compromised, imo.


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

ishiwgao said:


> why do you think it's not viable when it's classified as a motorcycle?


The classification as some variation of motorcycle (because of the three wheels), in some jurisdictions, can be problematic: it can require a motorcycle operator's license, and can even require wearing of a helmet, both of which are problems as well as being nonsensical for the vehicle.

There are other real problems, unrelated to classification, such as the awkwardly large size (especially in width) resulting from putting a whole car in a three-wheeled configuration.


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

The Wikipedia article on the current Aptera vehicle reads like an advertisement and omits the long history of failure behind it; the Wikipedia article on Aptera Motors provides some historical context.

Aptera has a YouTube channel which all looks good at first, but it is apparent from the content that they're still in "we built something but the real design which will be so much better is coming when we hire someone with a clue to design it" mode. For instance, the entire suspension design is being thrown away for a fresh start, just months before the things are supposed to be rolling of the production line... yeah, right.

To be fair, it is a serious attempt to find a vehicle design which is highly efficient, although the resulting compromises are also serious.


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## Deane (Mar 21, 2020)

Coincidently I received an end-of-year update email from them today. They say they now have over 150 employees working at 4 sites in S.California and over 15,000 orders have been received. They plan to start production in the 3rd or 4th quarter of 2022. Oh, and they claim no motorcycle license is needed in any state. Lots of detailed pictures of the wheels, motors, wiring, cooling, seating, etc. I think they are going to be able to complete it this time.


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## remy_martian (Feb 4, 2019)

Order reservations or orders? Big difference.

"3rd or 4th quarter" means they're still clueless about production in my book.

If it's not classified as a motorcycle, it's going to need to pass crash and rollover tests, meet lighting requirements, etc. Has/does it?

I'll bet they didn't copyright the email material, or make you sign an NDA, which means you may be able to share the tech details pics, vs beauty shots we can get anywhere, with your buddies here.

They get a free design review, lol.


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## remy_martian (Feb 4, 2019)

From their Class B, nonvoting, shares offering (still active to year end) filing with SEC:

Due to our design, we believe that Aptera Roadster’s range will be greater than 1,000 miles, and will have the following features:


gLightweight and low dragg0-60 mph in less than 6 secondsg3x or more range than other EVs with the same sized battery


Furthermore, solar power will be an integral part of our platform.



_Distribution Plan_

Aptera's strategy leverages lessons from Tesla


gDirect-to-consumer salesgOnline promotion/test-drive scheduling & events in key marketsgRegional pre-delivery warehousing in leased facility requires little CAPEXgSouthern California rollout initially with Major Metro Areas soon aftergMobile service house calls (a model proven globally by Tesla)


*Our Products*














When Aptera launches, our first vehicle will have the following features:




·Size: Overall Length: 172 in. Overall Width: 88.0 in. Overall Height: 57 in.


·Cargo Capacity: 25 cu. ft. volume


·Performance:


oAll wheel drive @ 150kw, and as quick a 3.5 sec 0 to 60 mph


oFront wheel drive @ 100kw, and as quick a 5.5 sec 0 to 60 mph


oTop speed at 100+ mph, with a limited at 110 mph


·Safety: Aptera will be tested to exceed all applicable FMVSS and NHTSA standards


·Range: Offering 4 different options from 250 mile range (25kWh) to ~1000 mile range (100kWhNever Charge Solar array in ~3 square meters/ 700 watts. Self-charges up to 60 kM while simply being parked.


·Solar:


oNever Charge Solar array in ~3 square meters/ 700 watts.


oSelf-charges up to 60 kM while simply being parked.


oSolar can be added to Aptera’s hood and Rear Hatch for up to 24 miles of additional free solar charging per day.


·Charging: Standard plugs can be used. 110v STD:13 miles/ hour 500 miles/ hour with rapid DC chargers


·Passengers Seating for 2 Adults + Pet




22




·Technology Interface Driver Display + 15”Touchscreen


·Exterior Colors: 3 different options


·Interior Colors: 3 different options


·Pricing $25,900 - $46,900+


·Expected delivery: 2021


·Premium features:


oCustom Interior/ Exterior Colors to create an Aptera that’s unique for you.


oEnhanced Audio gives you an extra 3 channels of audio for sound depth and deeper bass.


oSafetyPilot makes travel easy with level 2 autonomy capabilities.


oSafety divider and accessories to secure your pet while driving.


oIntegrated tent and rear awning for camping adventures.


oTake Aptera off road with more ground clearance and tougher wheel covers.


In addition, we will be introducing two special limited editions:



• Paradigm Edition: built to be the most efficient vehicle on the road with 400 mile range, with:




·enhanced audio,


·100kW,


·full solar,


·special paradigm interior features, and


·a target price of $29,900.


• Paradigm +: built to be the most efficient vehicle on the road with 1,000-mile range, with:




·upgraded audio,


·100kW,


·full solar,


·special paradigm interior features and


·a target price of $44,900


*Environmental Impact*



If Aptera produces one million vehicles, we’ll reduce our C02 footprint by seven million tons per year. Each Aptera owner can reduce their carbon footprint by over 14,000 pounds of CO2 per year, what 884 twenty-five-year old pine trees can absorb in a year. If one out of every 20 ICE vehicles on the road were replaced with an Aptera, Americans would save 18 million gallons of gasoline every day or six billion gallons per year (assuming 20mpg ICE vehicle and $3 per gallon gas).



*Market Size*



We believe our current addressable market is the roadster market which we estimate as 600,000 units per year.





23


















*Competition*



The automotive business is competitive.



We face competition from a variety of automobile manufacturers, many of whom have significantly more resources than we do. These competitors include Tesla, BMW, Toyota, and Rivian. More and more of the traditional automobile manufacturers are devoting more resources to developing hybrid and electric vehicles. As a result of this competition, the company may be unable to acquire significant market share. There can be no assurance that additional capital or other types of financing will be available if needed or that, if available, the terms of such financing will be favorable to the company.



https://www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/data/1786471/000110465921102955/tm2124741-1_253g2.htm#ss3


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## remy_martian (Feb 4, 2019)

In other words, it's too expensive to be a motorcycle, so they are trying to take on the roadster market. That's the luxury, look at me crowd OR the performance driver. And it'll be in production (if ever) when Tesla Roadster 2.0 is imminent or available 😬

I was an early Atliss offering investor - that stock gets to vote...

Also, no mention of Polaris Slingshot, which I think is their biggest competitor.

The timing of the OP here with the Dec 31 funding deadline is interesting.


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## ricbarbour (Jul 28, 2021)

Hey, on another thread months ago, all I said was that I wanted to buy one. And the forum administrator started screaming "SCAM".









If money was no object what EV would you go for?


Been thinking about this lately too. Want a car that could lap around a racetrack with consistently high performance for 10 minutes without overheating (Time Attack). The attainable OE stuff is SOOO heavy! Starting from a small-ish tube frame car, 3x Model3 PM motors (1 on front axle, 1 for...




www.diyelectriccar.com


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

The Aptera design is what somebody with a little knowledge thinks a low drag vehicle should look like

Anybody past the novice stage can see that its actually a very inefficient design


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## remy_martian (Feb 4, 2019)

You clearly don't understand the context of the word he used.

He meant they were evading the stringent requirements in being a CAR, yet (continue to) position themselves as one.

They're also not issuing voting stock, which in my mind is a bit questionable because they can vote themselves more stock options while taking in $11M on a series B. If they are hot shit vs milking money, they should have given all investors a voice with the money that was put in, imo.

The pivot to solar appears to be a kneejerk to Lightspeed to appease dumb/smart VC money (I spent a few years pitching them in Si Valley before I realized they fund hype, not viable companies, hence my use of "/").

Time will tell. There will be an EV OEM bloodbath in 2023/24, imo.


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## rmay635703 (Oct 23, 2008)

Duncan said:


> The Aptera design is what somebody with a little knowledge thinks a low drag vehicle should look like


Aptera is very similar to the original generation Honda Insight
And despite a high school style aerodynamics it’s still better overall efficiency than any OEM 2 seater on the market which goes to show that automakers don’t care about aerodynamic efficiency all that much and nearly all seem to be incompetent when it comes to efficiency.

Aptera needs to do lots of “no no’s” due to having a trike layout with 2 up front seating forcing outboard wheels due to our nannying of uneducated drivers for handling

Making seating inline moving the tires under body fascia and adding a lean in for some stability would help but still would be a “driver” issue with a dolphin shaped vehicle.

At the end of the day a three wheeler can be the most efficient vehicle shape but then becomes a handling nightmare for anything approaching normal egress,
4 wheel vehicles can be better on a solely CD basis but will always have a higher CDa due to the excessive size you need to have to follow a proper taper for attached and non-turbulent flow, rear wheels usually need to be narrower track which basically kills handling negating many of the handling benefits


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

remy_martian said:


> ·Size: Overall Length: 172 in. Overall Width: 88.0 in. Overall Height: 57 in.


For comparison, only a couple of big pickup trucks with extra-wide bodywork to cover enormous tires exceed 80 inches in width. A dual-rear-wheel pickup is a bit wider.



remy_martian said:


> ·Safety: Aptera will be tested to exceed all applicable FMVSS and NHTSA standards


Of course there are no body or collision standards for three-wheeled vehicles...


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## remy_martian (Feb 4, 2019)

But there are safety standards for 4 wheel roadsters. Not just applicable ones. 

How well did the SmartFor Two do in North America, and how well do large SUV's sell because they are battering Rams (pun intended) in a car accident?

Yeah - there's a width limit where clearance lights are needed, as on my 4 wheel steer GMC, the F-350 dually, and even the Ford Raptor pickup. With the 3 wheels, they might weasel out of it as a FMVSS requirement, but that doesn't lower your chances of getting clipped in the dark.


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

remy_martian said:


> But there are safety standards for 4 wheel roadsters. Not just applicable ones.


I agree - my comment was only about how by going three-wheeled they could legitimately claim to meet all applicable standards, while not meeting any meaningful standards at all.



remy_martian said:


> Yeah - there's a width limit where clearance lights are needed, as on my 4 wheel steer GMC, the F-350 dually, and even the Ford Raptor pickup.


The Quadrasteer - very cool. 



remy_martian said:


> With the 3 wheels, they might weasel out of it as a FMVSS requirement, but that doesn't lower your chances of getting clipped in the dark.


It looks like it does, but only if it is considered a motorcycle. Table I is for a list of vehicle types over 80" wide which excludes motorcycles, and Table III applies to narrower vehicles including motorcycles. It would still need suitable lights, but not the three-lamp wide-vehicle identification group, and motorcycles don't need tail lamps or reflectors showing the width of the vehicle at all. Of course only a complete idiot would build an 88" wide trike without lamps and reflectors on the front and back of the front wheel fenders.

The Polaris Slingshot is under 80" wide and has basically normal "car" lighting, including widely spread tail lamps on the wide rear bodywork (which the Aptera doesn't have).


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## Deep0527 (Dec 26, 2021)

Order reservations or orders? Big difference.

"3rd or 4th quarter" means they're still clueless about production in my book.


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## Deane (Mar 21, 2020)

Duncan said:


> The Aptera design is what somebody with a little knowledge thinks a low drag vehicle should look like
> 
> Anybody past the novice stage can see that its actually a very inefficient design


Ah, I think you have never studied aerodynamics. Please point out in detail why you think this is not a low drag vehicle!


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

Deane said:


> Ah, I think you have never studied aerodynamics. Please point out in detail why you think this is not a low drag vehicle!


You need to do your own home work
Have a look at actual modern solar racers

A very low drag machine is "streamlined" - this means the "streamlines" meet up
This means that "frontal area" is not important while "wetted area" becomes the most important

The Aptera is an example of a design where the designer does not know this simple fact


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## remy_martian (Feb 4, 2019)

They also appear to me to either be dumb, don't muzzle their marketers, or tolerate bullshitting as a culture (pick one or more):

"Again Aptera leads the pack by having the least “rolling resistance” — the friction that comes from the wheels against the ground. Our three wheel design — instead of four, eliminates a touch point where energy can be lost" Vehicle | Aptera

Um, no. That's an F in highschool physics.

Then there are aspects of the car that are far from low drag. 

They also conveniently left the mirrors off, which will increase their low Cd claim. Ever wonder why the Leaf and the Spark have that ugly-ass bump in the headlights? Reduces mirrors drag. Cuz you gotta have 'em, and rearview cameras to replace side mirrors are not legal in the US.

Their focus appears to be on the hype (Solar) vs ackshuall engineering. Three wheels with a teardrop airfoil body of rotation. Three hours of CAD....8 years later...."solar"


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## hiura (Jul 25, 2018)

ishiwgao said:


> why do you think it's not viable when it's classified as a motorcycle?


Name the most successful 3-wheel 'motorcycle' in history and what are its financials and how do those financials compare to the rest of the motorcycle industry? It's a toy not a game changer in any way.


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## rmay635703 (Oct 23, 2008)

Duncan said:


> You need to do your own home work
> Have a look at actual modern solar racers
> 
> A very low drag machine is "streamlined" - this means the "streamlines" meet up
> ...


As I alluded too…
In the real world you have handling concerns and egress concerns , even more so on a 3 wheeler

I would have loved to see a VW 250mpg clone car but Aptera doesn’t have the resources to sell a 4 wheel car, not to mention there are major tax problems / penalties with 4 wheel EVs in the US.

Aptera like everything was a compromise, your solution was a bridge too far on a bridge already too far.

Assuming these ever see production…

we will see how much effect “8 separate bodies” has on aero, they may do better than expected if they can clean up the front suspension. If they don’t I expect their 100wthr/mile will be at 50mph which is still OK

My hope was they would make the front wheel suspension into single winged supports (would add weight) but it appears they don’t care about weight, I was hoping for a 1500lb result so this could be extremely efficient as a city cruzer despite that not being the intended audience.

ah well never get it all.




remy_martian said:


> They also appear to me to either be dumb, don't muzzle their marketers, or tolerate bullshitting as a culture (pick one or more):
> 
> "Again Aptera leads the pack by having the least “rolling resistance” — the friction that comes from the wheels against the ground. Our three wheel design — instead of four, eliminates a touch point where energy can be lost" Vehicle | Aptera
> 
> ...


Somewhat agree as I’m worried they are repeating their former failures and not really interested in production.

I also think they play loose so they don’t need to explain something (aka want good sound bites).
Considering the political environment it seems to be par for the coarse these days, unfortunate trend to just run mouth.

AKA 3 wheels can have less overall drag but not because of LRR in the rubber
The rear wheel especially can have lower bearing drag and lower wind/turbulence drag depending on how they choose to support it and depending on how it’s enclosed
if it’s not a driven wheel it could easily have under half the overall drag of 2 outboard wheels
AKA supporting a wheel on 1 side drives about 4-8x “beefier” bearings, suspension, etc that all have a respective penalty


hiura said:


> Name the most successful 3-wheel 'motorcycle' in history and what are its financials and how do those financials compare to the rest of the motorcycle industry? It's a toy not a game changer in any way.











Reliant Robin - Wikipedia







en.m.wikipedia.org




There have been lean and small 3 wheelers that were financially successful, considering the microscopic size of the British auto market it sold a fair number and made money.

Then you have the 3rd world which up until recently literally only buy 3 wheelers and 2 wheelers .

In the US there are 3 successful three wheelers all of which fall into the luxury toy category, as strange as it sounds there are still people who own one in place of a car

Even here in Wisconsin I know 2 ladies that have only one transport appliance and it has 3 wheels
To the north you have folks that own no car and use side by sides as the family car (now that they are street legal in certain counties)


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

One aerodynamic problem with the Aptera design is the separate front wheels ruining the body shape, with the suspension between them and the body adding to the problem. The Aptera coefficient of drag is still low, so apparently the shell fairings are effective.

The other problem is that the wheels simply add frontal area. Aerodynamic drag is proportional to the product of drag coefficient and frontal area - the two factors are equally important.


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

rmay635703 said:


> AKA supporting a wheel on 1 side drives about 4-8x “beefier” bearings, suspension, etc that all have a respective penalty


The bearing part of that makes no sense. Whether the supporting suspension is on one side or both, the bearing set is centred and the location of the support doesn't matter. Of course, every production 4-wheeled vehicle has one-sided suspension at all wheels (I'm sure that there have been historical exceptions) - and now the rear of most motorcycles does as well.

A challenge for the Aptera's suspension is that the front control arms must be relatively long to yield the wide track required for stability (increasing weight and deflection), and the springs and shocks should in inboard for aero drag reduction (increasing weight and complexity). I don't know if it is the current design, but at least at one point they were using rocker upper arms, which is an elegant but heavy solution.

The electric drive aspect of the front suspension is that with their chosen approach of hub motors, while the axle shaft is eliminated, they have 3 power cables plus coolant hoses running out to the hub. That adds weight, is bulky, and requires all of those cables and hoses to flex at the body pivot and hub with suspension movement plus to twist with steering movement. It would be simpler and probably no heavier to just use a shaft. The rear suspension is much easier... one reason that tadpole trikes tend to drive just the rear wheel.


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

brian_ said:


> Aerodynamic drag is proportional to the product of drag coefficient and frontal area - the two factors are equally important.


That is form drag
If a shape is actually "streamlined" the "streamlines" rejoin at the end and the "form drag" drops to zero - which leaves the drag from the air traveling across the surface 
The "wetted area" drag

With normal car shapes the form drag is the predominant factor
Very aerodynamic shapes - such as aircraft and solar racers - almost completely eliminate the "form drag" and need to concentrate on the wetted area drag


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## remy_martian (Feb 4, 2019)

You'll never see exposed round tubes on an aircraft...their front suspension is draggy AF (technical term).

As far as rolling resistance (their claim is not aero, but RR), for a given tire tech, they could do a monowheel and still have the same rolling resistance as a four wheeler if the vehicle weight remains the same.


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## 57Chevy (Jan 31, 2020)

Why nobody talking about the 88" width! A Tesla S is only 77" and they are a massive car. Almost a foot wider than a massive car is going to be a problem. A three wheeler spontaneously reduced to a two wheeler on the highway by a passing truck won't be a lot of fun.


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## remy_martian (Feb 4, 2019)

I can only get 86 on my car trailer, lol


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

remy_martian said:


> You'll never see exposed round tubes on an aircraft...their front suspension is draggy AF (technical term).


Generally true: a circular cylinder has a CD something over 1.0 at reasonable Reynold's numbers. But are there any exposed round tubes on an Aptera? Presumably the front suspension control arms are shaped or faired more appropriately... but it's hard to tell what production parts might look like, since they're not ready for production.



remy_martian said:


> As far as rolling resistance (their claim is not aero, but RR), for a given tire tech, they could do a monowheel and still have the same rolling resistance as a four wheeler if the vehicle weight remains the same.


I agree.


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

57Chevy said:


> Why nobody talking about the 88" width! A Tesla S is only 77" and they are a massive car. Almost a foot wider than a massive car is going to be a problem. A three wheeler spontaneously reduced to a two wheeler on the highway by a passing truck won't be a lot of fun.


I have mentioned it, at least once. It is workable, but will be annoying. I suspect that if any of these make it to ordinary consumers there will be a lot of right-side front wheel curb hits.


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## 57Chevy (Jan 31, 2020)

brian_ said:


> there will be a lot of right-side front wheel curb hits.


parallel parked, minding own business... left wheel pod sticking 1.5ft out into traffic past any other regular car parked on the side of the road with texting drivers going by. Fun game for cyclists.


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

57Chevy said:


> parallel parked, minding own business... left wheel pod sticking 1.5ft out into traffic past any other regular car parked on the side of the road with texting drivers going by. Fun game for cyclists.


It's not that bad. Current full-size pickup trucks all have roughly 80" wide bodies, with mirrors sticking out way beyond that and dual rear wheel trucks being much wider... and most people park too far from the curb. My motorhome is 102" wide, plus mirrors, and no one has hit it when it has been parallel parked. Park the Aptera rationally and no one is likely to hit the street-side wheel, which of course will have a reflector on the fairing for night conditions... but it's still not a good situation.


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## remy_martian (Feb 4, 2019)

57Chevy said:


> parallel parked, minding own business... left wheel pod sticking 1.5ft out into traffic past any other regular car parked on the side of the road with texting drivers going by. Fun game for cyclists.


Meh....curb rash that front AND rear wheel 😂


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## SuperV8 (Jan 22, 2020)

brian_ said:


> I have mentioned it, at least once. It is workable, but will be annoying. I suspect that if any of these make it to ordinary consumers there will be a lot of right-side front wheel curb hits.


I'm from the UK - a full size RangRover is about 80" wide - and those are about as big as you'd want to go here.
Caravan's are between 2.2 & 2.3m which is around 87" to 90" and you know how wide those are whenever you leave the main roads.
An 88" wide trike won't work in Europe.


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## SuperV8 (Jan 22, 2020)

The hub motors don't sit easy with me. Sounds good 'in theory' but in the real world... No.
Should have just stuck to the conventional & reliable inboard motor and CV joints & drive shafts.
Having the large dia gap/seal around the circumference is just asking for salt/dirt/water ingress... not to mention lots of additional un-sprung mass
Just had to change my 2x front hubs on my 100,000 mile Seat - and they are very simple/robust bearing/seal arrangements. 
How many miles would the hub motors do before needing a re-build?


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## remy_martian (Feb 4, 2019)

^^ You can barely get a hatch through some of the villages I've traversed in Italy & France, lol.

Probably can't easily get one into or out of a shipping container, anyway, so no worries. The container door width is 91 inches...


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## rmay635703 (Oct 23, 2008)

remy_martian said:


> ^^ You can barely get a hatch through some of the villages I've traversed in Italy & France, lol.
> 
> Probably can't easily get one into or out of a shipping container, anyway, so no worries. The container door width is 91 inches...


I don’t think Aptera much cares about the European market much as Elon is disinterested in selling Cybertrucks there.
If Aptera starts hitting the road, it will be only stateside for the foreseeable future


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## ricbarbour (Jul 28, 2021)

you gents are hilarious. I would almost swear you are being paid by auto-industry PR people to diss anything like the Aptera.
As for licensing, I found this map on Polaris's website. Only NY, MA and Alaska require a motorcycle license.


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## remy_martian (Feb 4, 2019)

There's no "dis"...feel free to dare to counter anything we've posted as being factually incorrect.


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

ricbarbour said:


> you gents are hilarious. I would almost swear you are being paid by auto-industry PR people to diss anything like the Aptera.
> As for licensing, I found this map on Polaris's website. Only NY, MA and Alaska require a motorcycle license.
> View attachment 127929


Licensing was mentioned at the beginning of this discussion, and not since... and that mention didn't claim anything different from what you have confirmed. Now, how about the real issues with this thing?


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## 57Chevy (Jan 31, 2020)

ricbarbour said:


> I would almost swear you are being paid by auto-industry PR people to diss anything like the Aptera


I don't know what the others got but it was $375 before tax so hardly like we are making a living out of it.


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## hiura (Jul 25, 2018)

remy_martian said:


> There's no "dis"...feel free to dare to counter anything we've posted as being factually incorrect.


So agree. Looking forward to the sales fo 3 wheelers that dominated any market over cars/motorcycles.


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## rcnesneg (Nov 23, 2021)

We're getting close folks!


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## remy_martian (Feb 4, 2019)

They're doing a raise for funds to do production. 

Showing a platform queen at a show is not "close" - they were doing that a decade ago.

Until they successfully do a cash raise and get the car into production, they could go tits up. Then they get to bleed cash until they get to breakeven cash flow...with only one model and being a one trick pony - good luck with that.

Keep cheerleading, but I think their prospects are still pretty grim.


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## MattsAwesomeStuff (Aug 10, 2017)

remy_martian said:


> They're doing a raise for funds to do production. Showing a platform queen at a show is not "close" - they were doing that a decade ago.


Justin over at E-Bikes.ca (who rescued the Endless-Sphere forums from impending corporate buyout from Vertical Scope by matching the offer some 10 years ago and keeping it community-run), one of the early e-bike pioneers, once told me that people think that designing a working product is 90% of the way to producing it. And it's not. It's not even 1%. "Oh we've got a design that works" is not 1%.

Similarly, a few months ago Elon Musk was doing a 3-hour Space-X tour with an enthusiast, and he say that spaceship design is "way less than 10%" of the work towards producing spaceships. And, that's not even including the rest of the company. 90%+ of the engineering isn't "make a rocket on a novel design that can fly into space". That's the easy part. The other 90% is manufacturing, because that determines whether you have a company or not (then, that whole chunk again is a smaller component of running a company). And I don't mean doing the manufacturing (that's another whole topic)... I mean just the engineering with a focus on manufacturing it.

Making 1 that works is easy (hard, people dedicate their lives to designing new technology, but easy).

Figuring out how to engineer that product so that you can manufacture it cost effectively is the other 90%.

Most breakthroughs that impact our lives are not technological. They're manufacturing breakthroughs. It's when someone figures out how to make yesterday's technology cheaper.

We went to the moon in the 60's. Technology isn't a constraint (it was for, say, ancient Egyptians who might have wanted to go to the moon, yes, design is still some percentage and it has to be invented first). Cost is the constraint. Rocket tech today is more advanced than it was in the 60s, yes. Money is still spent on design. But manufacturing dwarfs design.

So where is Aptera?

They spent a lot of time talking about how they endlessly refined the aerodynamics, for years. They've built prototypes. Great. Design matters. This type of vehicle doesn't exist yet.

But in terms of a finish line? Are they closer to that 1-10%, or closer to that 90-99%?

It'd be hard for an outsider to ever tell. That manufacturing engineering doesn't look like anything until BLAM, it's all done and rolling out products.


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## Deane (Mar 21, 2020)

> So where is Aptera?


All I know is what I see in their newletters. They look very serious about manufacturing as they already have several buildings being set-up for that in California and have hired hundreds of people to get it going. But I agree it is difficult. Time will tell...


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

Where is Aptera?
A two seater that will not meet any safety requirements that takes up a bigger footprint on the road than a huge American pickup truck


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## Deane (Mar 21, 2020)

Where did you get that idea? The width of the front track is similar but that is about it.
Aptera is in southern California.


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## remy_martian (Feb 4, 2019)

It's classified as a motorcycle and, as such, weasels out of all of the crash and rollover testing requirements a car is subject to. 

Even low speed crash absorbing bumpers aren't there. 

It's likely as much of a death trap as many third world cars are, especially with all that crumbly carbon fiber. As a motorcycle, it may be no worse than one if you ignore the CF shards, but it's not a "car".


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## Deane (Mar 21, 2020)

I don't think our resident skeptic has ever worked with carbon fiber/epoxy. I have. It is one tough, stiff material! Certainly could not be described as "crumbly".
I just consider the Aptera as a motorcycle with at least some more protection from the elements and the road.


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## remy_martian (Feb 4, 2019)

In a crash, CF disintegrates/cracks because it is brittle. For crashworthiness, you will always find metal buckling tubes in carbon fiber cars and the ones that do get hit have nothing left of the carbon fiber pieces:









Does the Aptera have metal crush tubes for front offset crash survival, or is your magical Aptera carbon fiber going to do what Lambo and MacLaren engineers could not?


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

Deane said:


> Where did you get that idea? The width of the front track is similar but that is about it.
> Aptera is in southern California.


Its the same width and length as a huge pickup truck but only a 2 seater


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## ishiwgao (May 5, 2011)

Deane said:


> I don't think our resident skeptic has ever worked with carbon fiber/epoxy. I have. It is one tough, stiff material! Certainly could not be described as "crumbly".
> I just consider the Aptera as a motorcycle with at least some more protection from the elements and the road.


A question back to you so that you can have a rough idea of what everyone else is saying: have you worked with carbon fiber_ beyond yield stress_?

You're correct in saying Aptera is a motorcycle with more protection from the elements 

However, it is hard to say that it offers more protection from the road. Since it's not crash tested, the covered cockpit only provides a false sense of security that you're driving an actual car with proper crash structures in place.


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## rcnesneg (Nov 23, 2021)

remy_martian said:


> In a crash, CF disintegrates/cracks because it is brittle. For crashworthiness, you will always find metal buckling tubes in carbon fiber cars and the ones that do get hit have nothing left of the carbon fiber pieces:
> View attachment 132449
> 
> 
> Does the Aptera have metal crush tubes for front offset crash survival, or is your magical Aptera carbon fiber going to do what Lambo and MacLaren engineers could not?


It's actually more complicated than that. The front crumplezone is made up of the front subframe which crumples up against the angled firewall - much like the structure you have shown in the picture of that Mclaren.
The front and rear subframe are both bolted to the structural battery frame which is aluminum. Those are all connected to the composite structure which is fiberglass (not carbon fiber) and sits on top. I'm not aware of any carbon on this vehicle. I'm not going to jump to conclusions until we see the crash test results in Q2 next year. They're happy with the simulations so far, but composites are harder to simulate than metals. There's no reason they can't exceed the safety levels of a typical sheet-metal car. It's just not what we're used to and they have to prove that out and demonstrate to all the sceptics.

Here's a bit of information on that:


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## rcnesneg (Nov 23, 2021)

Aptera measurements (It's 85 inches wide not 88. Also massive trunk is now 28 cu. ft.)





All about the standard (low profile) wheel pants





Skin cooling system - TLR - Aluminum belly pan cools when at high speed. At low speed it runs through a low speed radiator that pulls air in from the windshield wiper cowling and exhausts out the tail. The HVAC system can use the AC to cool the battery if needed.


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## rcnesneg (Nov 23, 2021)

Here's the fiberglass inner cell (Alpha) not including the exterior panels.


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

So its only the same width as a huge American pickup!! not actually wider - BIG DEAL

As far as safety is required the problem is physics mot material engineering
With the Aptera design the passengers are simply "closer to the crash" - so there is less space to "match velocoties"


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## CliffordK (Oct 8, 2011)

I'm glad to see the company back in the fray. I'm a bit surprised the company didn't lose their intellectual property rights with the liquidation.

I watched the "Factory Tour" video above. Not surprising that all they show is a HUGE building that is completely empty inside except for some colored paint on the floor.

They have a great CGI video presentation, with robots that are doing absolutely NOTHING.

A few sample parts here and there, that are apparently still prototype parts.

I'd anticipate that they'd start getting processes down to largely manually build a car a week or so... then slowly incorporate more and more automation, and parallel processing to get things a lot quicker. Actually, the "Factory Tour" was only the final assembly plant, with the bulk of the forging, forming, and machining parts done elsewhere, or contracted out.

The structural battery case sounds interesting, but that means that any accident gets transmitted directly into the battery case. So, snag the rear wheel on something going either forward or backward, and the battery case is ripped apart. 

The curved solar panel looks nice, but solar panels have a lot of problems with different cells getting exposed to different amounts of sunlight, and the angle to the sun makes a major difference.

So far, apparently they haven't sent their most recent prototype to crash testing, so if there are some strength issues, it may be back to the starting point.


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## remy_martian (Feb 4, 2019)

Crash testing is not required for three wheelers - they fall under motorcycle regs. Which is what makes it a deathtrap against a drunk in an f250.


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## rcnesneg (Nov 23, 2021)

Duncan said:


> So its only the same width as a huge American pickup!! not actually wider - BIG DEAL
> 
> As far as safety is required the problem is physics mot material engineering
> With the Aptera design the passengers are simply "closer to the crash" - so there is less space to "match velocoties"


If you don't like it you're welcome to take your time elsewhere. We will all be happier if you focus on things you like.

Cheers


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

rcnesneg said:


> If you don't like it you're welcome to take your time elsewhere. We will all be happier if you focus on things you like.
> 
> Cheers


If it was a case of "you don't like it" then I would accept your comment -
As it IS a case of the Aptera being a SCAM which will make the real EVs look bad then I will continue to carp and critisise


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## dlud (Jul 19, 2021)

Well, I for one will not be happier if Duncan and others who are critical of Aptera leave the conversation. I have an open mind about the Aptera and really appreciate both critical and supportive comments. I'm not convinced that it's a scam but also not convinced that this will really make it. So...keep 'em coming from both sides.


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## remy_martian (Feb 4, 2019)

The pompom wavers are more than welcome to bring in counterfacts, which is how we learn. Clearly, there are investors and those with financial interests trying to pump up the excitement for the production cash raise.

This place winds up on Google searches. But it also has savvy builders and engineers that drop in.

Mere cheerleading isn't going to cut it after a couple of gory t-bones, or headons where the oncoming vehicle is ramped through the windshield.

All is takes is one zealous lawfirm to rob them into bankruptcy, especially if the company is not forthcoming on, or avoiding, crash testing (I think they should deliberately crash test to car standards to show the risks and the dismal failure - otherwise, they're hiding the risks of their product's operation).

This is NOT a car. It's a sperm-shaped Isetta for safety, IMO.


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## CliffordK (Oct 8, 2011)

Hopefully they will publish the Aptera crash test videos.

What I can't figure out is if the car has any kind of a steel skeleton. One of the beta test vehicles shows what looks like a steel roll cage. But, that isn't visible in other vehicles.

They seem to be relying heavily on a composite body structure. 

However, most other manufacturers seem to build a steel cage around the occupants including bars across the doors. Likely part of the reason the doors frequently auto-lock when driving.


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## remy_martian (Feb 4, 2019)

The roll cage is on their development test bed. You know - because the car is safe.

What crash test videos? It's not a car.


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## ishiwgao (May 5, 2011)

CliffordK said:


> Hopefully they will publish the Aptera crash test videos.


I see many comments about crash test videos. Did Aptera announce they will share crash test videos?

My personal opinion: if I were Aptera, I clearly wouldn't say anything about any crash test. I've built it to register as a motorcycle to save development costs, so why bother doing any crash testing then? Just shooting myself in the foot.


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## dlud (Jul 19, 2021)

I wonder whether other three wheel ev manufacturers such as Electra Meccanica are doing crash tests. I doubt it just as I doubt Harley Davidson is doing them. As pointed out it's not a car and anyone purchasing one should be made aware of that. Unfortunately a significant share of consumers will assume that this vehicle has passed safety standards for cars.


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## CliffordK (Oct 8, 2011)

remy_martian said:


> What crash test videos? It's not a car.





ishiwgao said:


> I see many comments about crash test videos. Did Aptera announce they will share crash test videos?
> 
> My personal opinion: if I were Aptera, I clearly wouldn't say anything about any crash test. I've built it to register as a motorcycle to save development costs, so why bother doing any crash testing then? Just shooting myself in the foot.


They've obviously made some concessions in their design due the DOT and NHTSA. For example they've been fighting about the mirrors for quite some time.

I assume you guys all watched the "Factory Tour" video Post #55 above above before commenting.






Time: 36:35

They say that once they get a final design then they'll build representative samples and slam them against a wall, crush them, and all that stuff... They say probably Q2 of next year they'll share videos. Of course if they are shared by the company, they may choose which videos to release.

At least that is what they said they have planned. 

"Motorcycle Licensing" may affect how rigorous of testing is required.

I'm not seeing much info about bumpers. They seem to think the body can withstand some impacts, but there are requirements for bumper height matching. As we know most new cars have gone to a polymer bumper cover over steel and possibly foam supports.


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## MattsAwesomeStuff (Aug 10, 2017)

I don't think


Duncan said:


> As it IS a case of the Aptera being a SCAM which will make the real EVs look bad then I will continue to carp and critisise


Well, come now, it's not a scam. It might be an unwise business decision, but they're clearly actually designing and building these things.

That said, while I'd be a bit defensive towards someone being endlessly shat on for their own build, no one here is from Aptera and, it's a company that doesn't have a great track record. Criticism is part of commentary, this isn't kindergarten. It's a fair discussion to have.


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## CliffordK (Oct 8, 2011)

Aptera classifies their vehicle as an "Autocycle" not a "Motorcycle". At least that is what they say.

There have been a couple of bills introduced to Congress with respect to autocycles, but apparently they haven't been passed yet.









Text - S.685 - 114th Congress (2015-2016): Autocycle Safety Act


Text for S.685 - 114th Congress (2015-2016): Autocycle Safety Act



www.congress.gov












Text - H.R.2381 - 115th Congress (2017-2018): Autocycle Safety Act


Text for H.R.2381 - 115th Congress (2017-2018): Autocycle Safety Act



www.congress.gov





So, many things default back to motorcycle regulations.

However, many states are now recognizing them as being independent from motorcycles, and removing things like helmet requirements for closed cab vehicles. And, potentially differentiating seated vs straddle vehicles.

Over 10 years ago when the first Aptera was in the news I asked my local DMV about license requirements and they seemed to indicate the Aptera would require a motorcycle endorsement on my license. But, there's been a lot of water under the bridge since then.

It looks like the intent behind those bills in congress was to merge motor vehicle safety standards between motorcycles and automobiles where applicable. 

Those bills are rather terse (perhaps a reason they weren't passed into law).

I'm surprised we're not seeing Plymouth Prowler style bumpers on the Aptera.










Likely something Aptera would scream bloody murder about. 

However, new Autocycle regulations could also put Aptera a year back in their project unless they have already started working on applicable safety standards.


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## remy_martian (Feb 4, 2019)

Government can't write retroactive regulations. As long as they don't change the "model year", they should be grandfathered.

It still requires a motorcycle endorsement in Oregon. And, likely, a helmet, which will go over like poop in a punchbowl, since everybody thinks it's a car and all the test rides by Youtubers are sans helmet, iirc....an Aptera is indestinguishable from an Arcimoto or a Polaris Slingshot.


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## CliffordK (Oct 8, 2011)

remy_martian said:


> Government can't write retroactive regulations. As long as they don't change the "model year", they should be grandfathered.
> 
> It still requires a motorcycle endorsement in Oregon. And, likely, a helmet, which will go over like poop in a punchbowl, since everybody thinks it's a car and all the test rides by Youtubers are sans helmet, iirc....an Aptera is indestinguishable from an Arcimoto or a Polaris Slingshot.


The Aptera isn't into production yet, so any legislation passed this year would still apply.

Oregon's motorcycle manual:


https://www.oregon.gov/odot/forms/dmv/6367.pdf


Page 4 (numbered)



> *Autocycles*
> Autocycles handle much differently than motorcycles or mopeds. These vehicles
> operate more like a car because they are equipped with three wheels, a non-
> straddle seat and a manufacturer-installed three-point safety belt or safety
> ...


Now, of course, leaving the regulations up to the states could make a mess. So, if the Aptera has a monocoque design, then it might not be considered to have a structural upper frame. 

I've seen what I presume was a rollover BMW i3 with a mix of aluminum and composites. It was just NASTY!!! Hopefully there is an element of a dynamic rollover test.


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## remy_martian (Feb 4, 2019)

Interesting.

So they have to pass this: 49 CFR § 571.216a - Standard No. 216a; Roof crush resistance; Upgraded standard.


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## hiura (Jul 25, 2018)

dlud said:


> Well, I for one will not be happier if Duncan and others who are critical of Aptera leave the conversation. I have an open mind about the Aptera and really appreciate both critical and supportive comments. I'm not convinced that it's a scam but also not convinced that this will really make it. So...keep 'em coming from both sides.


Name the most successful 3-wheel 'motorcycle' in history and what are its financials and how do those financials compare to the rest of the motorcycle industry? It's a toy not a game changer in any way.


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## remy_martian (Feb 4, 2019)

The Polaris Slingshot is still around, isn't it? 

Not sure the CanAm is...I always thought they looked like snowmobiles


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## CliffordK (Oct 8, 2011)

hiura said:


> Name the most successful 3-wheel 'motorcycle' in history and what are its financials and how do those financials compare to the rest of the motorcycle industry? It's a toy not a game changer in any way.


Sinclair?


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## CliffordK (Oct 8, 2011)

Hmm...

What about the Messerschmitt 3-wheeler? The car's out of production now, but the company went through a couple of changes and is now worth about $75 Billion.

BMW also had a 3-wheeler. And now where is the company?


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## remy_martian (Feb 4, 2019)

Reliant Robin, if we're going overseas. 3 Wheelers can be made safe:


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## floydr (Jun 21, 2021)

Piaggio MP3 egines sizes from 125CC to 500cc in production since 2006 230,000 produced although it is a scooter they even produced a hybrid scooter.
later floyd


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## CliffordK (Oct 8, 2011)

I suppose the Piaggio Ape (pronounced A as in Awe, P as in Paul, E as in Eight) would be one of the most successful 3-wheelers. Likely there is a whole class of utilitarian 3-wheelers. Cushman made a few. Does India make their own homebrew trikes?


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

MattsAwesomeStuff said:


> Well, come now, it's not a scam. It might be an unwise business decision, but they're clearly actually designing and building these things.


It's not an outright fiction, but that doesn't make it a legitimate business. A lot of people can make a lot of money from an exercise in collecting investor funds and spending them without any real intention to produce a vehicle. Startups go under, but I don't think many of the people involved in them come out broke after collecting salaries and selling products and services to those startups. The difference between a legitimate business at the startup phase and a scam can be hard to see from outside.

I'll still give the Aptera people the benefit of the doubt as assume incompetence and poor judgement rather than fraud.



MattsAwesomeStuff said:


> That said, while I'd be a bit defensive towards someone being endlessly shat on for their own build, no one here is from Aptera and, it's a company that doesn't have a great track record. Criticism is part of commentary, this isn't kindergarten. It's a fair discussion to have.


I agree.


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## CliffordK (Oct 8, 2011)

They have a solid product. And there seems to be a lot of demand for it. And their price point $20,000 to $30,000 seems reasonable both for consumers, and what they likely could build it for (components, labor, etc). It really isn't that big of a car. There will be issues that a startup company will have that a more established company would be able to deal with.

They had some issues with the X-Prize competition, but that was a decade ago with several major revisions since then. I think their car had an affinity for cones, and I think at some point a door flew open, although I can't find all of the old videos.

They still have some production hurdles and regulatory hurdles to go through. Hopefully nothing is insurmountable, and they have been planning for any regulatory issues.

The video above was only the final assembly facility. If they have all the parts and subcomponents lined up, it should move through pretty quickly. But they didn't show any forming and finishing of the body panels, or any heavy welding and machining which seems to be planned for offsite.

There certainly will be something that doesn't go smoothly.

If it was me, I'd choose an incremental production model. Plan a largely manual process that could crank out say 1 or 2 cars a day. Then slowly increase automation and fix bottlenecks, rather than their apparent plan to simply flip a switch one day and be producing a car every few minutes.

Undoubtedly, once a few cars get distributed in the public, more issues will pop up.


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## remy_martian (Feb 4, 2019)

It's no longer reasonable when you can get a Bolt EV for $27k. Back when they started out, they were an economical electrically-powered mobility solution. A decade later?

Dinosaurs go extinct because they are no longer adapted to their changed environment.

Going back to 2012, yeah, ok.

2023? Not with Bolt, not with Tesla starting to make noise about a $25k Model 2 now....both are CARS, both sit 4 or 5 people, both pass all crash tests.


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## CliffordK (Oct 8, 2011)

There will be a market of people who will choose the Aptera over the Bolt.

This push for vehicle efficiency shouldn't be entirely forgotten.


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

CliffordK said:


> This push for vehicle efficiency shouldn't be entirely forgotten.


The Aptera is the most INEFFICIENT vehicle
It is a two seater that uses just a little less energy than a 5 seater


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## CliffordK (Oct 8, 2011)

Duncan said:


> The Aptera is the most INEFFICIENT vehicle
> It is a two seater that uses just a little less energy than a 5 seater


The Teslas get somewhere around 4 miles per kWh.
The Aptera gets around 10 miles per kWh. 

So, about 2.5x more distance per kWh.

A car capable of carrying 4 people only can count on that efficiency if it is actually full of the driver + 3 passengers. However, a lot of driving in the USA is just a single driver and no passengers. A "High Occupancy Vehicle" is generally defined as the driver plus a single passenger.

Aptera seems to think the car can make up a significant amount of range simply parking the built in solar panel in the sun.

The vehicle really depends on one's needs. A commuter to work, and it'll be just fine.

Family car, and it may be pushing it a bit. I would think they could add tiedowns for infant and toddler seats in the back, but apparently it hasn't been done.


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

CliffordK said:


> The Teslas get somewhere around 4 miles per kWh.
> The Aptera gets around 10 miles per kWh.
> 
> So, about 2.5x more distance per kWh.
> ...


The Aptera does get 2.5 times as far per kWh 
AT A MUCH MUCH LOWER SPEED
At the same speed its more like 30% more


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## remy_martian (Feb 4, 2019)

Can't beat an electric bicycle for miles/kWh if ya gunna change da rulz....is that Aptera's competition, tandem e-bikes?


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## CliffordK (Oct 8, 2011)

Duncan said:


> The Aptera does get 2.5 times as far per kWh
> AT A MUCH MUCH LOWER SPEED
> At the same speed its more like 30% more


Do you have a link for the data?

We still have to wait for the official EPA rating.

Ok, here is a calculated chart for the Aptera.





__





Efficiency – a calculation – Aptera enthusiast blog







aptera.nu














As with all vehicles, the wind resistance increases as an exponential of speed. The same will be true with a Tesla or a Bolt.

From the link above:
Tesla Model 3 drag coefficient of 0.23. And Aptera? It’s said to have a drag coefficient of 0.13. Calculating in frontal area, it appears as if the Aptera still has about half the (drag coefficient) x (area) of the Tesla model 3.

So, drag alone and the Aptera will be about half of the Tesla at all speeds.

That means it is likely the Aptera will also get twice the distance per kWh as the Tesla model 3 at all speeds.


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## remy_martian (Feb 4, 2019)

If it loses its laminar flow due to bug guts like laminar flow aircraft wings do, Duncan may not be far off.

There are scientists, who'll polish the crap out of something to write a paper or brag, then there are engineers who build stuff to work under real world conditions, and build more that one rigged copy.


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## CliffordK (Oct 8, 2011)

remy_martian said:


> If it loses its laminar flow due to bug guts like laminar flow aircraft wings do


I'll have to remember that one. Car won't work due to bug guts on the windshield.

Wind resistance isn't something that should be ignored, and every manufacture is taking steps to reduce it. Even big truck manufacturers. Aptera has taken a unique approach to reducing wind resistance. Not all the choices I would have made, but they have some solid ideas.


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## remy_martian (Feb 4, 2019)

It's just an airplane fuselage with a taildragger undercarriage. If you look at it closely, it resembles a widened and truncated Dragonfly Mk-I.

🤦‍♂️ The car will work, but that drag coefficient everyone keeps citing goes out the window when the laminar flow gets tripped...that's the point you are missing when pointing a finger @Duncan's numbers.

Early homebuilts like the Dragonfly





__





Dragonfly FAQ - Dave Morris






www.davemorris.com





would almost fall out of the sky due to bug guts, even rain, messing up the low drag laminar flow.


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## CliffordK (Oct 8, 2011)

The odd thing is that I'm not seeing a lot of empirical data. 

There would be a lot of benefits of scaling up to a full, low volume production. So rather than having a single prototype to haul around to car shows, they'd be getting dozens of the cars out on the streets. Perhaps driven by employees. Or, a few being sold to some customers willing to share comments back with the company.


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

CliffordK said:


> I'll have to remember that one. Car won't work due to bug guts on the windshield.
> 
> Wind resistance isn't something that should be ignored, and every manufacture is taking steps to reduce it. Even big truck manufacturers. Aptera has taken a unique approach to reducing wind resistance. Not all the choices I would have made, but they have some solid ideas.


No Aptera is NOT making a sensible design for low drag!!!
Aptera has made something that looks like a low drag machine to somebody that knows a little about aerodynamics

I was at that level of knowledge before I ended up helping a local High School with its Solar Racer (we won twice)

At that point I did a bit of study about the subject 

The key thing to remember is that IF you can make an actual "streamlined" object where the streamlines join up again THEN the frontal area becomes irrelevant - at that point drag is proportional to "wetted area" 

This means that the basic SHAPE of the Aptera is wrong!!!
Which is why actual real world low drag machines like Solar Racers are a single shape - not three separate shapes like the Aptera 

This is our "Solar Stealth" - back in 1999 - just a High School project showing massively GREATER understanding of aerodynamics than the Aptera


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## CliffordK (Oct 8, 2011)

Duncan said:


> No Aptera is NOT making a sensible design for low drag!!!
> Aptera has made something that looks like a low drag machine to somebody that knows a little about aerodynamics
> 
> I was at that level of knowledge before I ended up helping a local High School with its Solar Racer (we won twice)
> ...


Ok, drag calculation:








Drag Equation - Glenn Research Center | NASA


Download as a Slide Drag Drag depends on the density of the air, the square of the velocity, the air's viscosity and




www1.grc.nasa.gov














Ok, let's ignore air density.

And we get the drag is proportional to the drag coefficient x frontal area x velocity squared.

Your solar racer has characteristics of a center bubble, low and flat, and maximizing the solar panel size. 

Aptera, instead chose side-by side seating and a voluminous cabin area. They could have chosen a double bubble roof shape like the Abarth. But rather their egg shaped roof may well be much stronger. The solar cells were a recent addition and largely an afterthought, not intended for primary propulsion.

I'm not sure inline seating like the Messerschmitt KR200 would have sold. People like conventional seating in a vehicle, as well as conventional doors and entry.

The three wheel pods simply add the drag x area, and are more efficient than enveloping the body around them. Likewise the teardrop struts have minimal additional drag.

Anyway, the car does have compromises generally related to driver/passenger comfort. But overall its drag is lower than any production cars.



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Automotive_aerodynamics#Drag_coefficient_and_drag_area



The link above puts the Aptera Cd*A = 0.27 m2, or 2.94 square feet. Lower than any production vehicle noted on Wikipedia including the very low production Volkswagen XL1.


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

CliffordK said:


> Ok, drag calculation:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


You again do NOT NOT NOT understand the aerodynamics of very low drag shapes!!!

That simple equation works very well in the regime of high or medium drag shapes where the biggest contributor is "Form Drag"

It is completely USELESS and simply not used at all in the regime of low drag "streamlined" shapes

If you can make a shape such that the "streamlines" join up at the back without separation then there is NO "form drag" - this is the area where things like aircraft wings operate

If you are in that zone then the frontal area becomes totally irrelevant -

The Aptera by having effectively three shapes instead of one manages to reduce the frontal area - which does not buy them ANYTHING 
And which is worse makes actually having a "streamlined" shape completely impossible due to the interactions where the three shapes come together

I can understand where you are coming from - I had exactly the same understanding - BEFORE I actually studied the subject

Again the Aptera is exactly what somebody with a small amount of knowledge of Aerodynamics thinks a car should look like


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## hiura (Jul 25, 2018)

CliffordK said:


> There will be a market of people who will choose the Aptera over the Bolt.


And no evidence that it will be of a size that will make Aptera financially viable. The examples given for three wheelers prove my point...BMW? Polaris? Three wheelers outside tuk-tuks and delivery/work trikes in Asia are NOTHING in the West. 

In the future, when someone reads this thread after Aptera is most obviously bankrupt, they will wonder how some could ever be so willingly delusional about a product that had no viable pathway to scale.


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## CliffordK (Oct 8, 2011)

How many will it take to make Aptera viable?

10,000 cars a year? That would be about 30 cars a day. The first couple of years they could sell that out pretty quickly. 

Their problem will be long term. After the first 500,000 people buy a new one, will they still have more sales?

Will they be able to break into the European market?

Will they design a 4 seat version? Will they give up on the 3 wheel concept and move to 4 wheels? Wide/Narrow track?

Ultimately a shift from gas and diesel to renewables over the next few decades will be a big benefit for small EV companies.

I'm still waiting for them to build their first 100 semi-production cars to decide which direction they'll ultimately go in.


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## CliffordK (Oct 8, 2011)

As of May, 2022, Aptera had 22,000 preorders for $100.









Aptera has more than 22,000 reservations for its solar electric car with up to 1,000 miles of range


Aptera announced that it has now received more than 22,000 reservations for its solar-powered electric car, which get to 1,000...




electrek.co





Likely more by now.

If half of the people actually purchase a car, that'll be a good start.


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

CliffordK said:


> As of May, 2022, Aptera had 22,000 preorders for $100.
> 
> ...
> 
> ...


If the vehicle actually goes into production and 10% of those people actually purchase, it will be surprising.


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

CliffordK said:


> Will they design a 4 seat version? Will they give up on the 3 wheel concept and move to 4 wheels? Wide/Narrow track?


So do you mean, will they build a completely different vehicle?


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## remy_martian (Feb 4, 2019)

VC looks for 10:1 return on their money from risky tech.

Aptera is looking for $50M in cash for production



https://cleantechnica.com/2022/08/27/aptera-needs-50m-for-production-is-the-company-in-trouble/amp/



so they have to deliver $500M on that risk. Net cash.

On your "good start" 10,000 orders, that's $50,000 per car...net EBITDA.

At 15% gross margin, they need $333M in sales.

The answer for funding then is to suck on government (California, Biden) teat because sane private Silicon Valley money is not going to touch it....unless they can scam an exit like they did with Solyndra.

The Lucid Air has excellent engineering, but I doubt even they'll make it.


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## kennybobby (Aug 10, 2012)

It gets up to 1000 miles range when it ever gets built, well except for the 3 dev units their vaporware needs more optimization.


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