# 25-40kW PFC charger for High-Voltage Batteries (300V+) - less than $1,500 to build



## charliehorse55 (Sep 23, 2011)

I think this is a great idea, and I'm really interested in the liquid cooled option. The added cost of a microcontroller is not a huge concern when compared to the utility offered:

-CAN bus control
-Scheduled charging (To take advantage of time of use pricing)
-Slower charging to extend battery life (when you're not in a hurry)
-Act as a charge controller for a generator while driving

Does this charger require three phase input? 40kW at 240V... that's a lot of amps for single phase.


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## Huub3 (Aug 16, 2009)

Hi Valery,

as already 10 kW would be sufficient for me, the high-power version is not too important for me.

However, what I do need, is ability to charge a pack of 500-600 V. Is this something that is doable with the 10 kW charger, and if yes, what would it cost.

If only feasible with the high-power version, then I might be interested, and intelligence would be OK as I do have a CAN BMS in mind.

Regards,

Huub


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## SimonRafferty (Apr 13, 2009)

I'm pleased to see that you've continued development of your charger! I was quite tempted to buy one of your kits for the follow up to mine - but mine now just refuses to die (I'm only charging at 5kw) and I cannot justify something new with a perfectly good charger in the truck already!

Well done!

Si


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## valerun (Nov 12, 2010)

charliehorse55 said:


> I think this is a great idea, and I'm really interested in the liquid cooled option. The added cost of a microcontroller is not a huge concern when compared to the utility offered:
> 
> -CAN bus control
> -Scheduled charging (To take advantage of time of use pricing)
> ...


Still single phase. This is about the max you can get from 240V service (most new houses in the US are built with 200A 240V service ready to go).


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## valerun (Nov 12, 2010)

Huub3 said:


> Hi Valery,
> 
> as already 10 kW would be sufficient for me, the high-power version is not too important for me.
> 
> ...


Hi Huub - I would definitely suggest this design for your case - it is more efficient than our main design at these voltage levels. However, we do not yet have the intelligence built into that so if you need that, you might have to wait for a month or so.

V


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## rwaudio (May 22, 2008)

I love the first one, but a water cooled 25kW version would be handy. I like the configuration options on the normal version and I think it would be worth the extra cost to make it programmable. You could probably drop the display in favour of a web interface or something similar for programming. LED's would work just fine for status.


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## brainzel (Jun 15, 2009)

A three phase version would be the best to sell it to europe.
230V is typically hedged with 8A (switzerland), 10A in germany, not uncommon 16A.

When we need real power, we take the 3phase (400V) 16A, 32A or 63A outlet.
So it would be 11kW, 22kW or 44kW max.

That 25kW/40kW charger would definitely an option to me, if it is programmable/switchable so I could charge f.ex. at 10% over night or 100% at a quick charge on a trip to get home.


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## valerun (Nov 12, 2010)

brainzel said:


> A three phase version would be the best to sell it to europe.
> 230V is typically hedged with 8A (switzerland), 10A in germany, not uncommon 16A.
> 
> When we need real power, we take the 3phase (400V) 16A, 32A or 63A outlet.
> ...


Yes, it will be natively 3-phase (we are using 3-phase bridges and our PFC controller can deal with 3-phase rectified, as well). However this version can only output higher voltage than rectified mains. That's why we need 310+V nominal battery to operate off 240VAC.

V


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## valerun (Nov 12, 2010)

ok some update & pics.

Added:
1. Hardware temperature protection
2. Provision for current (via J1772 protocol - whether from a J1772 EVSE or simulated by a micro)
3. Provision for voltage control by a micro

Will probably add a kit product to our store soon (1-2 weeks).


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## Yukon_Shane (Jul 15, 2010)

This looks pretty great Valery. I haven't finished my 10 kW charger kit yet and you've already got me dreaming about 40kW

Can you give a bit of a run down as to how you make those C brackets for the inductor?

Do you have any pictures that show a close-up of the inductor mounting?

thanks,
Shane


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## valerun (Nov 12, 2010)

Yukon_Shane said:


> This looks pretty great Valery. I haven't finished my 10 kW charger kit yet and you've already got me dreaming about 40kW
> 
> Can you give a bit of a run down as to how you make those C brackets for the inductor?
> 
> ...


Thanks Shane - the brackets are 1" thick HDPE. We make a 'C' shape with a cutout just big enough to fit the inductor. Then put a piece of rubber between the inductor and metal box when fastening to the box. We found that this configuration results in an optimal cooling of the inductor.

V


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## Genius Pooh (Dec 23, 2011)

Great job..

I hope you can earn profit from it in near furue 

thanks!


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## Old.DSMer (May 18, 2012)

Valery, I agree with RWAudio. Drop the display and go with programmable web interface.

I almost ordered your 10kW, but I'm still building so I can wait for this gem 

Thanks for the update!


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## valerun (Nov 12, 2010)

Old.DSMer said:


> Valery, I agree with RWAudio. Drop the display and go with programmable web interface.
> 
> I almost ordered your 10kW, but I'm still building so I can wait for this gem
> 
> Thanks for the update!


Thanks guys. I think we are going to go with Bluetooth interface and upgrade our Android EV Dashboard app to add a tab managing the charger.

Also, we are now ready to accept orders for the first batch of these 25kW air cooled units - pot-controlled voltage and current limits only for now. Please PM if interested. 

Thanks,
Valery.


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## Red Neck (Feb 1, 2013)

Looks good...

For use in Europe on 240v with 16amp fuse for instance, which mode could it be used on? And if on 3 phases? How would it be wired?
Also, how long would it take to charge 24 or 28 100Ah LifePo4 cells in series
then at those scenarios?

Thanks!


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## valerun (Nov 12, 2010)

Red Neck said:


> Looks good...
> 
> For use in Europe on 240v with 16amp fuse for instance, which mode could it be used on? And if on 3 phases? How would it be wired?
> Also, how long would it take to charge 24 or 28 100Ah LifePo4 cells in series
> ...


16A would give you ~4kW, 3.7kW output which is a serious underutilization of this design's capability. 

Also, this version would only work with 310V or higher nominal packs. So at least 95 LiFePo4 cell in series. 

For more flexible voltage output and full programmability, check out our 12 kW charger at http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showthread.php/10kw-60a-diy-charger-open-source-59210p44.html and http://www.emotorwerks.com/cgi-bin/VMcharger_V9.pl

Thanks,
Valery


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## Red Neck (Feb 1, 2013)

OK. Thanks. Can you give me an answers for same questions for a system with a 220v pack? Because I may get one of those shortly also.

Thanks!


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## valerun (Nov 12, 2010)

Red Neck said:


> OK. Thanks. Can you give me an answers for same questions for a system with a 220v pack? Because I may get one of those shortly also.
> 
> Thanks!


same as above. as long as below 310V nominal battery voltage, the answers would be the same.


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## Coulomb (Apr 22, 2009)

valerun said:


> Yes, it will be natively 3-phase (we are using 3-phase bridges and our PFC controller can deal with 3-phase rectified, as well).


Um, won't that only provide good power factor for the top 60 degrees of each phase's waveform? [ Edit: 60 degrees of each half-cycle, so 120 degrees total. ] Only one pair of the 6 diodes in a 3-phase bridge can be conducting at once, right? (Otherwise the bridge would short the phases.) So for 2/3 of the time, each phase has zero current, after a 3-phase bridge rectifier.

So to get decent power factor (low harmonic distortion), you'd need three PFC front ends, would you not? Each only have to be one third the power, but still, it has to increase the cost a bit and take up a bit more room.

So for decent power factor, it seems that 3-phase can't be a near-trivial change from a single phase model. Assuming I'm not missing something here.

Oh, I suppose you could have three one-third power PFC stages, and run them in parallel for single phase mode. Is that how you're doing it?

My apologies if this is a FAQ.


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## valerun (Nov 12, 2010)

Coulomb said:


> Um, won't that only provide good power factor for the top 60 degrees of each phase's waveform? [ Edit: 60 degrees of each half-cycle, so 120 degrees total. ] Only one pair of the 6 diodes in a 3-phase bridge can be conducting at once, right? (Otherwise the bridge would short the phases.) So for 2/3 of the time, each phase has zero current, after a 3-phase bridge rectifier.
> 
> So to get decent power factor (low harmonic distortion), you'd need three PFC front ends, would you not? Each only have to be one third the power, but still, it has to increase the cost a bit and take up a bit more room.
> 
> ...


Yes, you are right. We would use 3 smaller PFC stages for a 3-phase application.


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## valerun (Nov 12, 2010)

some update:

fitted this charger unit to charge from a DC source yesterday. 35kW into a 32kWhr pack, from 270V nominal source (sagging to 240V under load - very similar to mains load profile). Worked like a charm, as they say (with just air cooling, too - 2 120mm fans).

Interesting to note the problems we are hitting when trying to charge at these currents. 

Main problem is the voltage drop in wiring from the charger unit to the pack. The unit is off board in our lab, with ~7-meter gauge 2 cable. Voltage drop is sufficient to limit output current to ~100A even below 60% SOC (the charger enters current limiting when at CV voltage point). 

The second problem is voltage rise on batteries (due to internal resistance) that triggers BMS response and CV stage turn-on above 80% SOC. Which again lengthens the time of charge quite a bit.

The input current limit on the unit is set at ~200A so we have to solve these issues in order to realize the full potential. The first problem is easier to solve - shorter, thicker wire (2/0?). The second one is quite tough, actually, if you still want to keep batteries from going above 3.6V (as CALB 0.3C charging profile suggests). I do suspect that you can take these cells to a terminal voltage higher than 3.6V without any issues provided SOC is below certain point (say, 90%) but I have not seen any info on this anywhere.

Does anyone have any info on / experience with fast-charge profiles for LiFePo4 in general and CALB in particular?

Thx!
V


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## Coulomb (Apr 22, 2009)

valerun said:


> Main problem is the voltage drop in wiring from the charger unit to the pack. ...
> 
> The first problem is easier to solve - shorter, thicker wire (2/0?).


You could also use a 4-wire approach - two thickish "current carry" wires, say 2 gauge, and two much thinner "voltage sense" wires.

It's less convenient to sense the voltage this way, but it overcomes the voltage drop issue without having to have very thick charger cables.

Though I've just looked up that 2 gauge is only good for 130 A continuous (with 90C rated insulation).


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## valerun (Nov 12, 2010)

quick update on this project. The analog version is working fine at 25kW but has a limitation of overly high PFC switching frequency (the lowest fixed frequency chip we could find was 22kHz which is too fast at 100A+). As a result, 600A IGBT overheats after several minutes at 35kW. Ask me how we know ;-)

Anyway, 2 of those IGBTs later, we have started developing a digital PFC version of this charger. Fast forward 2 months and now we have a working digital PFC unit that has a completely flexible frequency, input & output currents, output voltage, etc. 

After the Maker Faire, will finally create a product out of it.

V


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## SimonRafferty (Apr 13, 2009)

Valerun - It's great to see you pushing this to new limits!

Which Maker-Fayre are you going to? I presume you're displaying?

Si


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## valerun (Nov 12, 2010)

SimonRafferty said:


> Valerun - It's great to see you pushing this to new limits!
> 
> Which Maker-Fayre are you going to? I presume you're displaying?
> 
> Si


Thanks Simon - we are displaying at San Francisco's Maker Faire. This coming weekend. 

V


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## valerun (Nov 12, 2010)

update: the 20kW rated version will hit the shelves on our online store in a week or two!

Intro pricing will be same as our current 12kW PFC charging system - 70% more watts for the same $$$! ;-))

As I mentioned before, it will have a full digital control our 12kW customers enjoy today - LCD interface, full programmability in field, etc.

Will post videos of the unit in operation to our YouTube channel at http://www.youtube.com/user/vmiftakhov?feature=watch later this weekend.

Get ready!

PS. Just a reminder that this version will work with high-voltage batteries only - >~310V nominal, >335V CV point. It will work off both AC and DC input (peak input voltage should always be below the CV voltage of your battery)


Some tech notes:
1. We have added second thermal control for the inductor & output caps - we found that with beefed up IGBTs and input bridge, inductor and caps are our next thermal 'frontier'. So the charger will start derating not only when it hits 55C heatsink temp, but also over 85C inductor / cap temp. Temp is measured at the hottest point between the caps and inductor so every other point should be cooler than that.
2. We have added a third fan to the case and extended cooling slots to accommodate a substantially bigger inductor.
3. The charger will sustain 20kW output at ambient of 35C or lower - at higher temps, the output power will likely start to decline after 15-20 min. At 45C ambient, the unit should still deliver at least 15kW.
4. We have ramped this design to at least 25kW which it was able to sustain for 15-20 min (ambient ~27C) before capacitor temp forced derating.


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## adeyo (Jun 6, 2012)

valerun said:


> . It will work off both AC and DC input (peak input voltage should always be below the CV voltage of your battery).


This is awesome! Will this charge my Nissan leaf? I believe it is somewhere around 350v. Can I plug it in to my dc quick charge port? 

Also, I have a 9kw solar system (dc into a central inverter not an ac microinverter system) could I possibly use this charger to accept direct current from the panels and charge my leaf?? What would I need to do to accomplish such a feat? I realize it is impractical for daily charging, but this would enable me to store my energy into my leaf battery bank when the grid goes down and possibly use it to power back a small portion of my home. Without the added cost of an expensive battery bank.


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## ElectriCar (Jun 15, 2008)

Are you working on anything that will charge my 169V pack? I'd like to have 15-20Kw. And is the amp output fully adjustable for the CC stage? I have a 34Kw pack but it takes a good while at 5Kw to charge!

Re the wire size. Depending on the amps, you need large wire to keep heat/voltage drop to a minimum. Heat = wasted $$$

If you're charging at 125A, I'd try 1/0 or 2/0 welding cable which is very flexible, almost rope like.


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## valerun (Nov 12, 2010)

adeyo said:


> This is awesome! Will this charge my Nissan leaf? I believe it is somewhere around 350v. Can I plug it in to my dc quick charge port?
> 
> Also, I have a 9kw solar system (dc into a central inverter not an ac microinverter system) could I possibly use this charger to accept direct current from the panels and charge my leaf?? What would I need to do to accomplish such a feat? I realize it is impractical for daily charging, but this would enable me to store my energy into my leaf battery bank when the grid goes down and possibly use it to power back a small portion of my home. Without the added cost of an expensive battery bank.


We are working on a CHAdeMO with some partners now. Hopefully this summer...


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## valerun (Nov 12, 2010)

ElectriCar said:


> Are you working on anything that will charge my 169V pack? I'd like to have 15-20Kw. And is the amp output fully adjustable for the CC stage? I have a 34Kw pack but it takes a good while at 5Kw to charge!
> 
> Re the wire size. Depending on the amps, you need large wire to keep heat/voltage drop to a minimum. Heat = wasted $$$
> 
> If you're charging at 125A, I'd try 1/0 or 2/0 welding cable which is very flexible, almost rope like.


Hi ElectriCar - 

Our standard charging system (http://www.emotorwerks.com/products...bled-and-tested-emw-smartcharge-12000-charger) will do 12kW output which is close to your target 15kW.

You can also parallel these units to get nearly arbitrary power limited only by voltage rise on IR of the batteries.

You are right - our input AC wires are 1/0 for the high-voltage unit described in this thread. Output is AWG4 - sufficient for 65A average current (20kW into 300+V battery)

V


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## valerun (Nov 12, 2010)

20kW test video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MxVeebPImJ4


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## ElectriCar (Jun 15, 2008)

Again, you mention at 300+ volts. My pack charges to 169V, is it not capable of that?


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## valerun (Nov 12, 2010)

ElectriCar said:


> Again, you mention at 300+ volts. My pack charges to 169V, is it not capable of that?


The HV version (20kW rated at this point) is going to work only with high-voltage batteries, yes. There is no easy way to make it work with lower voltage batteries. We are working on expanding this design into a more universal system - probably going to introduce it at EVCCON2013 in August. Still, it will require 2 standard EMW charger boxes (10x10x8) to get to 25kW output.

So for your purposes, I would still suggest our latest version of the SmartCharge-12000 system (12kW output). This will already be 2.5x faster than your currect 5kW setup. If you need even faster charge, you can always parallel 2 or more units.

Thanks,
Valery


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## ElectriCar (Jun 15, 2008)

Oh ok I didn't realize the 12Kw would work at that voltage. Cool!


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## adeyo (Jun 6, 2012)

valerun said:


> We are working on a CHAdeMO with some partners now. Hopefully this summer...


Nice! I look forward to it. Thanks Valerun

...can somebody give me a basic understanding of dc chargers? I've been researching, but have yet to find out if these Chargers, or a Nissan Leaf battery (using dc quick charge port) can accept a fluctuating DC current ? 

for example, I have a 3000 kilowatt solar panel array and a 6000 kilowatt solar panel array. either of which I could, on a sunny day, feed my electric vehicle battery bank directly. that is if the battery or the Chargers will accept a fluctuating DC current? Will they? can they accept a fluctuating input current and then output a steady yet lower current directly to the battery?

or is none of this possible by any charger?


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## valerun (Nov 12, 2010)

adeyo said:


> Nice! I look forward to it. Thanks Valerun
> 
> ...can somebody give me a basic understanding of dc chargers? I've been researching, but have yet to find out if these Chargers, or a Nissan Leaf battery (using dc quick charge port) can accept a fluctuating DC current ?
> 
> ...


fluctuating current is not a problem. 

but if you want to charge batteries directly from solar, you either (1) need to have panel rated voltage higher than battery voltage or (2, preferred) have a charging system that's capable of MPPT (max power point tracking). This way you will get the most out of the panel. 

Now, unless you are completely off-grid, the best solution is actually neither of the above. The best solution is to just have a regular AC charger like one of our units and connect it to grid. Your solar inverter already has MPPT so you don't have to worry about that.


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## adeyo (Jun 6, 2012)

Ok, scrapped solar for now. Another subject, Nissan leaf, new 400amp service and this charger. 

I'm upgrading my service at my house. I'm currently adding another 200 amp service panel that I plan on dedicating to my Nissan leaf and my new Valerun charger  (on the horizon) 

Question is, will this charger work with the leaf bms system and if so, what charge time do you anticipate for the 24kw battery? I did notice in the Engadget article you were charging a leaf with the 10kw charger.


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## ElectriCar (Jun 15, 2008)

As an electric contractor, we could install you an additional 200A service, SINGLE PHASE as is normal in a home, for $700 or so. For three phase it would run maybe $1000 or so.

The residential service would give you a rapid charger capacity of around 45Kw. The three phase 200A service would give you about 70Kw. 

I think the SAE standard is 90kw which would require a 300A service at 208V three phase. 

Eaton however has a 50 Kw level 3 charger.


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## adeyo (Jun 6, 2012)

So, how could one get 3 phase from a residential hookup? Is it possible? Also, how could one utilize the Eaton charger with AC current? Is there a way to pull out or convert to DC current without great efficiency losses? (The link showed that charger as being DC quick charger). 

Btw, how much is that charger?


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## adeyo (Jun 6, 2012)

"The DCQC utilizes a CHAdeMO compliant power connector with future option available for the SAE J1772 AC/DC combo connector which, is currently under development"

... Wonder how long until available?


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## valerun (Nov 12, 2010)

adeyo said:


> So, how could one get 3 phase from a residential hookup? Is it possible? Also, how could one utilize the Eaton charger with AC current? Is there a way to pull out or convert to DC current without great efficiency losses? (The link showed that charger as being DC quick charger).
> 
> Btw, how much is that charger?


Good questions! ;-) 

Eaton is the size of a small house and costs more than $15K. That should settle it I think. ;-)

What we are trying to do is to get to 25-50kW at less than $5K.

None of the existing offerings on the market are targeted towards individuals. They are all supported by state programs installing these things in commercial settings. That's why they are designed and build without much concern for costs.

We have yet to test our CHAdeMO firmware (actually written by some partners from South California) on the actual Leaf. I will update you guys as soon as that's done. In the meantime, we are pushing the new boundaries of power with our hardware. You've seen the 20kW video for our HV unit. We are now working on getting 25kW comfortably. Some work is also going into the development of a modular system that will be able to handle up to 50kW with 3 modules the size of the 12kW charger, all still air cooled. 

As I mentioned before, we hope to get the 20kW CHAdeMO-enabled units out by end of Summer. 

We are just a few days away from launhing a 20kW HV charger units in a fully built form (to follow by kits soon if we see the demand). If you are interested in getting a pre-production deal on those, PM me.

Thanks,
Valery.


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## adeyo (Jun 6, 2012)

valerun said:


> We have yet to test our CHAdeMO firmware (actually written by some partners from South California)...
> 
> As I mentioned before, we hope to get the 20kW CHAdeMO-enabled units out by end of Summer.
> 
> ...


Great! If I purchased one of these 20kW HV charger units, will it simply be a firmware update to become a CHAdeMO unit? Or could my unit not be 'upgraded'?


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## valerun (Nov 12, 2010)

adeyo said:


> Great! If I purchased one of these 20kW HV charger units, will it simply be a firmware update to become a CHAdeMO unit? Or could my unit not be 'upgraded'?


It will be upgradeable but will involve more than just a firmware swap. Also, we expect the pricing of the CHAdeMO to be up to 2x higher than the 20kW HV chargers we are about to announce.


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## ElectriCar (Jun 15, 2008)

adeyo said:


> So, how could one get 3 phase from a residential hookup? Is it possible? Also, how could one utilize the Eaton charger with AC current? Is there a way to pull out or convert to DC current without great efficiency losses? (The link showed that charger as being DC quick charger).
> 
> Btw, how much is that charger?


You can make 3 phase from single phase but it's not going to get you the Kw of the 3 phase. The Kw available at your home is all you'll get. You can install the 3 phase at your home though. RE losses, anytime you convert from one thing to another you will have some loss though it's negligible in this situation.


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## adeyo (Jun 6, 2012)

ElectriCar said:


> You can install the 3 phase at your home though.


How so? I have 400 amp cable laying in a ditch that will be connected to the pole and my house. Will I need something else? If I did, would my service be useful for anything else? Seems like going single phase is best for me - especially since it will be primarily dedicated to charging an ev (at least 200 amps). Probably will quick charge me fast enough.


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## ElectriCar (Jun 15, 2008)

Well you can't install 3 phase power but you can get it installed by a licensed contractor. 

Single phase won't work for a rapid charger in most if not all cases as they're mainly if not exclusively 3 phase devices.


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## valerun (Nov 12, 2010)

ElectriCar said:


> Well you can't install 3 phase power but you can get it installed by a licensed contractor.
> 
> Single phase won't work for a rapid charger in most if not all cases as they're mainly if not exclusively 3 phase devices.


ours is single-phase. see our video of 20kW operation at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MxVeebPImJ4


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## valerun (Nov 12, 2010)

Hi Guys - some tests for DC-DC charging (one of our cars into another). Demonstrating the fast charge capability of this unit from any source.

28kW shown - 82A output into 339V pack from a 270V pack at ~110A input current. Output / input currents shown, along with a switching waveform (at C2E1 terminal of the GBT wrt to E2). ~100V turn-on overshoot and 50V turn-off. 100-150ns transition times using our own IGBT drivers capable of 20A drive currents

See photos below. Will post a video soon, as well.

Again, we are taking some pre-orders now. Help us make this real. If you have a high-voltage battery (>~310V nominal), this is the unit for you.

Valery.


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## ElectriCar (Jun 15, 2008)

valerun said:


> ours is single-phase. see our video of 20kW operation at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MxVeebPImJ4


I was speaking of Level 3 chargers he mentioned which are 50-90Kw that I've seen.  I think though your charger is awesome, particularly if it'd fit behind the seat of my pickup like my Zivan NG5 does.


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## valerun (Nov 12, 2010)

ElectriCar said:


> I was speaking of Level 3 chargers he mentioned which are 50-90Kw that I've seen.  I think though your charger is awesome, particularly if it'd fit behind the seat of my pickup like my Zivan NG5 does.


how much space is that? our units are now 10x10x8. If liquid cooled, can be further squeezed into 10x8x7".


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## valerun (Nov 12, 2010)

ElectriCar said:


> I was speaking of Level 3 chargers he mentioned which are 50-90Kw that I've seen.  I think though your charger is awesome, particularly if it'd fit behind the seat of my pickup like my Zivan NG5 does.


BTW we are going to use our 20kw modules to make a 3-phase charger for one of our upcoming conversion projects - one PFC unit per phase gets us 60kW without breaking a sweat. 5-hour charge of the 300kWHr pack (bus)


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## ElectriCar (Jun 15, 2008)

Now you're REALLY getting somewhere! So $#### and we have a 60Kw charger. Will it "speak" to factory EV's so they can work with one? I'm thinking of installing a Level 3 at my office if I can afford one. Need it to be credit card capable so it's automated.


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## valerun (Nov 12, 2010)

ElectriCar said:


> Now you're REALLY getting somewhere! So $#### and we have a 60Kw charger. Will it "speak" to factory EV's so they can work with one? I'm thinking of installing a Level 3 at my office if I can afford one. Need it to be credit card capable so it's automated.


working on it... hopefully this summer.


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## ElectriCar (Jun 15, 2008)

Hey that's awesome! I'm excited for you guys!


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## valerun (Nov 12, 2010)

not REALLY on topic but kind of: 36kW charging from 3 EMW 12kW chargers in parallel. 160A from 240V supply at peak power ;-0

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hn0Bqsaiugo


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## valerun (Nov 12, 2010)

another video - 28kW from a single unit in DC-DC mode.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j-AqlvJkfig

target power in DC-DC mode: 50kW. still in an air-cooled 10x10x8 package!

PS. something went slightly wrong with sound levels - just crank up the volume when watching - it's there...


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## PlanB (Jan 20, 2010)

Re your 3phase 3PFC charger. Any plans to put CHAdeMO handshaking in it? Would be great for Nissan Leafs.


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## valerun (Nov 12, 2010)

PlanB said:


> Re your 3phase 3PFC charger. Any plans to put CHAdeMO handshaking in it? Would be great for Nissan Leafs.


working on it right now. ;-) update in the next few weeks.


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## valerun (Nov 12, 2010)

valerun said:


> working on it right now. ;-) update in the next few weeks.


getting close. a group of Leaf 'hackers' down south was able to quick-charge at least 4 vehicles with our charger (with their QC mods). We are now working on the isolated design to push this into 'production'.


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## PlanB (Jan 20, 2010)

Why is isolation needed on fast chargers? Similar technology, like industrial VSDs, don't use it & it must add to the cost & weight?


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## valerun (Nov 12, 2010)

All production cars check for isolation. You would have to not ground the car if you want to use a non isolated design. Not really a very good experience for the mainstream customer


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## PlanB (Jan 20, 2010)

So are we looking at something too heavy to lift out of the trunk now?


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## valerun (Nov 12, 2010)

PlanB said:


> So are we looking at something too heavy to lift out of the trunk now?


not yet ;-) also, non-isolated version will also be available. Basically, a non-isolated version is one box ~8x10x10, and the isolation stage is another box of same size. Each ~25-30lbs for a 20-25kw version. 

A conversion EV could easily use a non-isolated version. A production EV could use either but would have to not ground the car if using a non-isolated one.


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## Jan (Oct 5, 2009)

valerun said:


> A production EV could use either but would have to not ground the car if using a non-isolated one.


Why is that, Valerun?


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## MN Driver (Sep 29, 2009)

Jan said:


> Why is that, Valerun?


Same reason why you do not ground the negative terminal of a high voltage EV pack to the frame. If you ground a non-isolated charger to the frame and you are in contact with the frame and touch a battery terminal you get shocked with the path of where your body contacts the frame through your body and to the battery terminal. Not saying you won't get shocked if you don't ground it, but it makes it a little easier if you ground it.


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## Jan (Oct 5, 2009)

MN Driver said:


> If you ground a non-isolated charger to the frame and you are in contact with the frame and touch a battery terminal you get shocked with the path of where your body contacts the frame through your body and to the battery terminal.


I really do not see that path. Maybe during charging, but in that case the ground leak breaker would step in.

Maybe we have different definition for ground, neutral, life and so. 

In my definition ground in an AC device is literally the ground. If current from a life wire escapes via a path, other than neutral, the ground leak breaker will open up the circuit. So fast, you will not notice anything. 

Ground in a DC circuit is sometimes mixed up with the negative pole. And in a car they are really the same: Chassis is more or less ground and the negative pole.


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## valerun (Nov 12, 2010)

Jan said:


> I really do not see that path. Maybe during charging, but in that case the ground leak breaker would step in.
> 
> Maybe we have different definition for ground, neutral, life and so.
> 
> ...


well, truth is somewhere in between. HV battery should never be in touch with the frame of the car. All modern EV has a continuous check of that isolation by measuring leakage current between frame and battery terminals. When a non-isolated charger is connected to the battery AND the car body is grounded, that check fails. The car faults out. 

Your assessment of the redundancy of such protection with GFCI is lrgely correct. But that doesn't change the fact that using a non-isolated charger in a modern EV requires some 'hacks' and therefore is unsuitable for general public.


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## PlanB (Jan 20, 2010)

Messy business these isolated packs, not sure I'd be game to plug the Leaf into 3 phase & not have the car grounded. Sounds like a recipe for an unintended lethal car alarm


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## valerun (Nov 12, 2010)

PlanB said:


> Messy business these isolated packs, not sure I'd be game to plug the Leaf into 3 phase & not have the car grounded. Sounds like a recipe for an unintended lethal car alarm


yes. hence our work on isolated charger


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## valerun (Nov 12, 2010)

getting closer on this. First pre-production units in field testing now. Just posted a manual on http://emotorwerks.com/EMW_SmartCharge_25000HV/. More info to come. Price point is likely going to be similar to our 12kW kits.

Who's interested in getting the first batch? Send me a PM.


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## PlanB (Jan 20, 2010)

Well if you ever come up with an isolated 20kw box I can lift out of the trunk with a 3 phase input on one end & a CHAdeMO plug on the other, me & my Leaf are certainly interested.


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## valerun (Nov 12, 2010)

PlanB said:


> Well if you ever come up with an isolated 20kw box I can lift out of the trunk with a 3 phase input on one end & a CHAdeMO plug on the other, me & my Leaf are certainly interested.


Yes, this is an eventual idea. We have now proven the tech feasibility. The question is how much would you pay for something like this?


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## PlanB (Jan 20, 2010)

Well old son how much do you think it's worth?


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## valerun (Nov 12, 2010)

PlanB said:


> Well old son how much do you think it's worth?


yeah, that's what I thought...


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## PlanB (Jan 20, 2010)

Well that's how it usually goes, vendor asks a price? I should be in CA next March, we're 415~ 50Hz phase-to-phase here in Oz, I could bring home a couple of proof-of-concepts if the price was plausible.


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## valerun (Nov 12, 2010)

Hi All - 

The time has come! 

The first 5 units of the 20kW High-Voltage charger will be available starting week of Nov 25. 

Reminder on specs: 
* Input voltage: 100-250VAC, fully power factor corrected
* Output voltage: 330-450VDC
* Output power: 20kW
* Same intelligent control as our 12kW systems (see http://emotorwerks.com/tech/electronics for details)

Intro pricing for fully built units (no kits will be initially available) is $1,999. Considering that our 12kW units go for $2,299 I think that's a great deal ;-) I expect the pricing to go up beyond 12kW point once we are in full production.

Let us know if you want one.

Thx


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## Nuts&Volts (Dec 20, 2011)

valerun said:


> Hi All -
> 
> The time has come!
> 
> ...


 
What are the dimensions and weight of these units? This offer might finally make me jump on one of these units...


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## valerun (Nov 12, 2010)

Nuts&Volts said:


> What are the dimensions and weight of these units? This offer might finally make me jump on one of these units...


Good point. 

Same dimensions & weight as our 12kW units: 10x10x8" machined steel enclosure, ~20lbs.


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## valerun (Nov 12, 2010)

OK guys, these are now available for purchase. 3 units have been committed already, we are looking for 2 more orders for this first batch.

Reminder: this is 20kW high-voltage charger (battery nominal > 310V, CV>340V).

A few of these have been in daily operation for a few last weeks and we are now on V13 iteration of the main boards. So it's getting pretty mature.

PM me if interested. Intro pricing $1,999 for this initial set. 10x10x8 air cooled enclosure, fully micro-controlled, 25lbs or so, black powder coat machined case.

Thanks,
V


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## valerun (Nov 12, 2010)

the product announcement is now public on our site at 

http://emotorwerks.com/products/online-store/product/show/75-emotorwerks-quickcharge-25000


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## kerrymann (Feb 17, 2011)

valerun said:


> OK guys, these are now available for purchase. 3 units have been committed already, we are looking for 2 more orders for this first batch.
> 
> Reminder: this is 20kW high-voltage charger (battery nominal > 310V, CV>340V).
> 
> ...


V, I sent you a PM a week back but haven't gotten any reply. I am buying a charger this week and have been waiting to hear back from you to make a decision.

Kerry


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## valerun (Nov 12, 2010)

kerrymann said:


> V, I sent you a PM a week back but haven't gotten any reply. I am buying a charger this week and have been waiting to hear back from you to make a decision.
> 
> Kerry


Apologies Kerry - just replied. Things are hectic right now with the shopping season & we are getting hit by it from both sides ;-)

Thanks,
Valery.


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## kerrymann (Feb 17, 2011)

valerun said:


> Apologies Kerry - just replied. Things are hectic right now with the shopping season & we are getting hit by it from both sides ;-)
> 
> Thanks,
> Valery.


No worries Valery. Completely understandable. I sent you a PM back. 

Have a Happy holidays!
Kerry


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## valerun (Nov 12, 2010)

http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=44&t=13349&p=347456#p347456


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