# [EVDL] Lithium or not, that is the question



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

I have come to a dilemma that I hope the list serve can help with because
many of you have already then in my place. I have read many emails on here
about increase mileage with the switch over from lead to lithium.
Presently I have 15 Deka 831Gel (180 volts, 100AH -18KW), four in place of
the radiator, 4 in place of the gas tank and 7 in place of the rear seat.
The weight is about 1080 lbs total. If I go to Lithium I could lose about
420 lbs storing them in place of the gas tank and rear seat. At present I
get a good 30 miles per charge and if I push it have gone 37. I have the
Azure DMOC and AC motor with regen and it is set to pull max of 200amps.
Personal observation shows that I have taken it down to 75% DOD but mostly
around 50%. I have noticed a lot of sag with these Dekas. At present I
cannot drive to work, 42 miles one way. 30 miles interstate. I would like
anyone to weigh in on the following questions/concerns before I talk to
sales type person. 

1. What is a reasonable amount of miles increase would I expect if I
stayed at the same voltage and AH?

2. Will the decrease in weight really make a noticeable difference?

3. How much sag can I expect.

4. Does anyone know if the Azure 24 will hold up to daily use, one
hour twice a day?

5. Does Lithium play well with regen? 

6. Will I need to turn regen off when at the top of the charge or will
the BMS take care of it.?

Any other advice before I invest $10K to $15K



Thanks in advance.



Buddy Mills

<mailto:[email protected]> [email protected]



Look mom, no gas. <http://www.evalbum.com/2887> http://www.evalbum.com/2887



Disclaimer: No animals were harmed or killed in the process of writing this
email. Any stories to the contrary are, for the most part, either fictional
or greatly exaggerated. 



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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Buddy Mills wrote:
> 
> > 1. What is a reasonable amount of miles increase would I expect if I
> > stayed at the same voltage and AH?
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

My experiences with my rather-lightweight Gizmo is just as Willie suggests.=
I've easily tripled my range, although I did increase pack capacity from 4=
8v x 196 ah (lead) to 60v x 180 ah. Despite the increase in capacity, 300 p=
ounds of "ballast" is no longer aboard, which has improved acceleration and=
braking as well. The lead pack would not provide 48v to 196ah, as the volt=
age drop is excessive compared to LiFePO4, and the practical safe depth of =
discharge is much higher. I rarely pulled more than 50 percent from the lea=
d pack.


I'm using CALB cells, which are purported to be able to handle 3C and bette=
r, but I'll never put that much of a load on the pack. I may drag the SOC t=
o 20 percent now and then, but even at that level, I probably won't be on t=
he planet long enough to put the cycles into the pack. I might drive the Gi=
zmo one to two times a week, 3-10 miles (currently) as I'm a velomobile dri=
ver (human powered vehicle), but I went with the massive capacity and massi=
ve capability, as I will likely not be able to pedal 200 miles a week in my=
sunset years and the Gizmo is a perfect sunset vehicle for me.

I don't regret for a moment having spent the big bucks on LiFePO4.



________________________________
From: Willie McKemie <[email protected]>
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <[email protected]> =

Sent: Sunday, March 4, 2012 3:15 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Lithium or not, that is the question
=



> Buddy Mills wrote:
> 
> > 1. What is a reasonable amount of miles increase would I expe=
> ct if I
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Hi Buddy,

> Presently I have 15 Deka 831Gel (180 volts, 100AH -18KW), four in place of
> the radiator, 4 in place of the gas tank and 7 in place of the rear seat.
> The weight is about 1080 lbs total. If I go to Lithium I could lose about
> 420 lbs storing them in place of the gas tank and rear seat. At present 
> I
> get a good 30 miles per charge and if I push it have gone 37. I have the
> Azure DMOC and AC motor with regen and it is set to pull max of 200amps.

with the DMOC, I highly suggest going to 300V for more power.

200A is easy enough, just don't go any smaller than 60Ah cells.

with regen, just set the max voltage to 3.6v x number of cells

How many Ah does your present battery actually deliver now?

At interstate speeds, most of the energy is used pushing air out of the way, 
so a decrease in weight doesn't reduce the energy requirement much.
What will improve your range is increasign usable capacity.

I wouldn't normally expect a 180V 100Ah lead pack to deliver more than 9kwh, 
but it rather depends upon how you are measuring DOD
If you don't already have an Ah counter, I highly recommend installing 
something like a cycle analyst to get a handle on your present Wh/mile (and 
battery capacity)

A 90 cell 288V 60Ah pack can deliver 14kwh of usable capacity for $6500 + 
$500 charger (Elcon 1500W) + $1200 in BMS

You can of course go larger, $10K can get you 288V 70Ah (16 kwh) , $15K can 
get you 288V 130Ah (29 kwh)

You could bottom balance the cells intially and install the BMS at a later 
date.
The cell matching process the major LiFePO4 manuacturers use result in cells 
that are matched to within 2% of capacity


Matt

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Buddy Mills" <[email protected]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, March 05, 2012 1:45 AM
Subject: [EVDL] Lithium or not, that is the question


>I have come to a dilemma that I hope the list serve can help with because
> many of you have already then in my place. I have read many emails on 
> here
> about increase mileage with the switch over from lead to lithium.
> Presently I have 15 Deka 831Gel (180 volts, 100AH -18KW), four in place of
> the radiator, 4 in place of the gas tank and 7 in place of the rear seat.
> The weight is about 1080 lbs total. If I go to Lithium I could lose about
> 420 lbs storing them in place of the gas tank and rear seat. At present 
> I
> get a good 30 miles per charge and if I push it have gone 37. I have the
> Azure DMOC and AC motor with regen and it is set to pull max of 200amps.
> Personal observation shows that I have taken it down to 75% DOD but mostly
> around 50%. I have noticed a lot of sag with these Dekas. At present I
> cannot drive to work, 42 miles one way. 30 miles interstate. I would 
> like
> anyone to weigh in on the following questions/concerns before I talk to
> sales type person.
>
> 1. What is a reasonable amount of miles increase would I expect if I
> stayed at the same voltage and AH?
>
> 2. Will the decrease in weight really make a noticeable difference?
>
> 3. How much sag can I expect.
>
> 4. Does anyone know if the Azure 24 will hold up to daily use, one
> hour twice a day?
>
> 5. Does Lithium play well with regen?
>
> 6. Will I need to turn regen off when at the top of the charge or 
> will
> the BMS take care of it.?
>
> Any other advice before I invest $10K to $15K
>
>
>
> Thanks in advance.
>
>
>
> Buddy Mills
>
> <mailto:[email protected]> [email protected]
>
>
>
> Look mom, no gas. <http://www.evalbum.com/2887> 
> http://www.evalbum.com/2887
>
>
>
> Disclaimer: No animals were harmed or killed in the process of writing 
> this
> email. Any stories to the contrary are, for the most part, either 
> fictional
> or greatly exaggerated.
>
>
>
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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Buddy Mills wrote:
> 
> > I have come to a dilemma that I hope the list serve can help with because
> > many of you have already then in my place. I have read many emails on here
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

This is indeed a complicated question. It's easy to get off-the-cuff 
answers that "lithium will triple your range"; but that's only going to 
be true under certain circumstances. There could also be cases where you 
get *less* range.

Cost is also a major factor. Your battery cost per mile can also go up 
significantly with lithium if you're not careful.



> Buddy Mills wrote:
> > 1. What is a reasonable amount of miles increase would I expect if I
> > stayed at the same voltage and AH?
> 
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Lee Hart <[email protected]> wrote:
> > Note that the lithiums will also have a reduction in capacity as the
> > load current increases. You'll need data or curves for the actual cells
> > you'd use; "rules of thumb" will be a waste of time.
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

1. What is a reasonable amount of miles increase would I expect if I 
stayed at the same voltage and AH? 
>> I haven't switched from lead to lithium, so others can answer that
>> better.

2. Will the decrease in weight really make a noticeable difference?
>> The drag force is equal to rolling resistance force at about 45 mph or so
>> for a sedan, so decrease in weight will mainly affect performance at
>> lower speeds, and is not a huge effect since as Lee said it is the
>> percentage weight increase/decrease relative to weight of the entire car. 

3. How much sag can I expect. 
>> At 3C discharge (540A from my 180Ah cells) my pack sags from around
>> 117-119V to around 100-105V, when near full charge. My pack is heated
>> when the car is parked, so it is always above 50 F, usually above 60 F. 
>> The above sag is for about 65 F.

4. Does anyone know if the Azure 24 will hold up to daily use, one 
hour twice a day? 
>>Jeez, I would hope so. Does the warranty state something like only good
for < 1 hr/day? :^))

5. Does Lithium play well with regen? 
>> Yes. My pack is top balanced, and I have the max regen pack voltage set
>> in my controller software so that no cell will exceed 3.47V - as long as
>> it doesn't become too imbalanced. If I go down a hill near my house
>> (after about 0.2 mile drive) with a full charge the car coasts freely
>> when I get toward the bottom with regen limited by the controller. 
>> Similarly, if I have driven only a few miles after a full charge and give
>> full regen during a panic stop from around 50 mph or higher, the charger
>> will limit regen because the current is so high it drives the pack V up
>> to the limit voltage. You can set the limit voltage to whatever you
>> like. My bms has no option for controlling regen.

6. Will I need to turn regen off when at the top of the charge or will 
the BMS take care of it.?
>> See above. The controller should do it. However, I usually don't
>> require a full charge, so many times I just charge to within 7 -10Ah of
>> full so the controller doesn't need to limit regen. Also, you can always
>> take it out of gear and coast if you have a transmission.

--
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Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

I'll give you my experience in range increase.
My 2001 GMC Sonoma DC conversion originally used 24 T145 "260 Ahr" wet PbA golf cart batteries. The total vehicle weight was 5000 lb. On my best days (warm, batteries pretty new) I was able to get 40 miles out of them, but only by going to under 20% SOC. And on those 40 mile days I was creaping home (that prompted me to take the EV sticker off my vehicle because I didn't want to give EVs a bad name). During cold weather my range was often more like 25 miles, and this gradually reduced as my batteries aged.

Last year I converted to 48 Winston 180 Ahr LiFePO4 cells (roughtly the same 144V as my old pack). The vehicle weight was reduced by 1000 lb. Last week I pulled 75 miles on a charge. My Link-10/E-Meter showed I used up all 180 Ahrs, but I was still well above the low voltage limit of my cells and I had no noticable reduction in vehicle power. The battery temp was about 55F. When my Li batteries are in the 30F-40F temp range, I do notice some reduction in power/range, but not more than 20% reduction (if a dependable range is important to you, I agree with others that you should consider keeping your batteries heated while plugged in).

So my range increase is close to 2x of my best PbA days, and 3x of my worst PbA days.

When I bought the batteries from Manzanita, they did a capacity test on a group of 4 cells and these 180 Ahr batteries measured around 240 Ahrs. But for the sake of longevity, I still treat them batteries with a 180 Ahr usable capacity.

I attribute the range increase to reduced weight and the vastly improved power curve (power vs. SOC) of LiFePO4.

I have nothing to add to the other questions that others have answered.

Regards,
Randy Richmond
http://evalbum.com/1253


> From: [email protected]
> To: [email protected]
> Date: Sun, 4 Mar 2012 12:45:29 -0500
> Subject: [EVDL] Lithium or not, that is the question
> 
> I have come to a dilemma that I hope the list serve can help with because
> many of you have already then in my place. I have read many emails on here
> about increase mileage with the switch over from lead to lithium.
> Presently I have 15 Deka 831Gel (180 volts, 100AH -18KW), four in place of
> the radiator, 4 in place of the gas tank and 7 in place of the rear seat.
> The weight is about 1080 lbs total. If I go to Lithium I could lose about
> 420 lbs storing them in place of the gas tank and rear seat. At present I
> get a good 30 miles per charge and if I push it have gone 37. I have the
> Azure DMOC and AC motor with regen and it is set to pull max of 200amps.
> Personal observation shows that I have taken it down to 75% DOD but mostly
> around 50%. I have noticed a lot of sag with these Dekas. At present I
> cannot drive to work, 42 miles one way. 30 miles interstate. I would like
> anyone to weigh in on the following questions/concerns before I talk to
> sales type person. 
> 
> 1. What is a reasonable amount of miles increase would I expect if I
> stayed at the same voltage and AH?
> 
> 2. Will the decrease in weight really make a noticeable difference?
> 
> 3. How much sag can I expect.
> 
> 4. Does anyone know if the Azure 24 will hold up to daily use, one
> hour twice a day?
> 
> 5. Does Lithium play well with regen? 
> 
> 6. Will I need to turn regen off when at the top of the charge or will
> the BMS take care of it.?
> 
> Any other advice before I invest $10K to $15K
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks in advance.
> 
> 
> 
> Buddy Mills
> 
> <mailto:[email protected]> [email protected]
> 
> 
> 
> Look mom, no gas. <http://www.evalbum.com/2887> http://www.evalbum.com/2887
> 
> 
> 
> Disclaimer: No animals were harmed or killed in the process of writing this
> email. Any stories to the contrary are, for the most part, either fictional
> or greatly exaggerated. 
> 
> 
> 
> -------------- next part --------------
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> | Moratorium on drag racing discussion is in effect.
> | Please take those discussions elsewhere. Thanks.
> |
> | REPLYING: address your message to [email protected] only.
> | Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
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|
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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Good data! Do you mean CALB 180Ah cells (blue), or Winston 160Ah (yellow) -
Winston doesn't make 180.

--
View this message in context: http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/Lithium-or-not-that-is-the-question-tp4444047p4451964.html
Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

_______________________________________________
| Moratorium on drag racing discussion is in effect.
| Please take those discussions elsewhere. Thanks.
|
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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Randy;

Thanks for the great information.

I'm considering a very similar Lithium transplant for my 65 Datsun.
(48) of the 180aH CALBS to replace my (13) 70aH Odysseys.
I should be able to shed ~ 250#, so after completed it should weigh in the =
~ 2800# range.
I use ~ 275 WH per mile now with ~ 20 mile range.
With the Lithiums', my range should be at least as good as yours.
70 miles would be fantastic, and would let me travel to all the places I'd =
like to now, but can't.
=

This real life data you provided is extremely helpful with the decision mak=
ing process.
Just need to scrape up the $$

Dennis=
=

Elsberry, MO=
=

http://www.evalbum.com/1366
=
=






-----Original Message-----
From: RightHand Engineering [mailto:[email protected]] =

Sent: Tuesday, March 06, 2012 3:43 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Lithium or not, that is the question


I'll give you my experience in range increase.
My 2001 GMC Sonoma DC conversion originally used 24 T145 "260 Ahr" wet PbA =
golf cart batteries. The total vehicle weight was 5000 lb. On my best days =
(warm, batteries pretty new) I was able to get 40 miles out of them, but on=
ly by going to under 20% SOC. And on those 40 mile days I was creaping home=
(that prompted me to take the EV sticker off my vehicle because I didn't w=
ant to give EVs a bad name). During cold weather my range was often more li=
ke 25 miles, and this gradually reduced as my batteries aged.

=

Last year I converted to 48 Winston 180 Ahr LiFePO4 cells (roughtly the sam=
e 144V as my old pack). The vehicle weight was reduced by 1000 lb. Last wee=
k I pulled 75 miles on a charge. My Link-10/E-Meter showed I used up all 18=
0 Ahrs, but I was still well above the low voltage limit of my cells and I =
had no noticable reduction in vehicle power. The battery temp was about 55F=
. When my Li batteries are in the 30F-40F temp range, I do notice some redu=
ction in power/range, but not more than 20% reduction (if a dependable rang=
e is important to you, I agree with others that you should consider keeping=
your batteries heated while plugged in).
=

So my range increase is close to 2x of my best PbA days, and 3x of my worst=
PbA days.
=

When I bought the batteries from Manzanita, they did a capacity test on a g=
roup of 4 cells and these 180 Ahr batteries measured around 240 Ahrs. But f=
or the sake of longevity, I still treat them batteries with a 180 Ahr usabl=
e capacity.
=

I attribute the range increase to reduced weight and the vastly improved po=
wer curve (power vs. SOC) of LiFePO4.
=

I have nothing to add to the other questions that others have answered.
=

Regards,
Randy Richmond
http://evalbum.com/1253
=


> From: [email protected]
> To: [email protected]
> Date: Sun, 4 Mar 2012 12:45:29 -0500
> Subject: [EVDL] Lithium or not, that is the question
> =

> I have come to a dilemma that I hope the list serve can help with because
> many of you have already then in my place. I have read many emails on here
> about increase mileage with the switch over from lead to lithium.
> Presently I have 15 Deka 831Gel (180 volts, 100AH -18KW), four in place of
> the radiator, 4 in place of the gas tank and 7 in place of the rear seat.
> The weight is about 1080 lbs total. If I go to Lithium I could lose about
> 420 lbs storing them in place of the gas tank and rear seat. At present I
> get a good 30 miles per charge and if I push it have gone 37. I have the
> Azure DMOC and AC motor with regen and it is set to pull max of 200amps.
> Personal observation shows that I have taken it down to 75% DOD but mostly
> around 50%. I have noticed a lot of sag with these Dekas. At present I
> cannot drive to work, 42 miles one way. 30 miles interstate. I would like
> anyone to weigh in on the following questions/concerns before I talk to
> sales type person. =

> =

> 1. What is a reasonable amount of miles increase would I expect if I
> stayed at the same voltage and AH?
> =

> 2. Will the decrease in weight really make a noticeable difference?
> =

> 3. How much sag can I expect.
> =

> 4. Does anyone know if the Azure 24 will hold up to daily use, one
> hour twice a day?
> =

> 5. Does Lithium play well with regen? =

> =

> 6. Will I need to turn regen off when at the top of the charge or will
> the BMS take care of it.?
> =

> Any other advice before I invest $10K to $15K
> =

> =

> =

> Thanks in advance.
> =

> =

> =

> Buddy Mills
> =

> <mailto:[email protected]> [email protected]
> =

> =

> =

> Look mom, no gas. <http://www.evalbum.com/2887> http://www.evalbum.com/28=
87
> =

> =

> =

> Disclaimer: No animals were harmed or killed in the process of writing th=
is
> email. Any stories to the contrary are, for the most part, either fiction=
al
> or greatly exaggerated. =

> =

> =

> =

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> _______________________________________________
> | Moratorium on drag racing discussion is in effect.
> | Please take those discussions elsewhere. Thanks.
> |
> | REPLYING: address your message to [email protected] only.
> | Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
> | UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
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=

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