# Sanity check on planned conversion.



## x88x (Aug 19, 2011)

100+ views and no input? No "pff, rtfm, noob, you're high", no "yeah, that sounds reasonable", no "yeah, you could do that if you did xx different or relaxed yy criteria"? Come on, I don't mean to be 'that guy', but I'm sure someone's got to have something to say.  If you think I'm being ridiculous, tell me.

I should note, I know I won't be able to get the acceleration _and_ the range at the same time. And if you think 6s is unreasonable, say so; tbh I just pulled that number out of the air. What I'm shooting for is a daily driver that has the power and handling to be fun when I want it to be, and smoke some gassers while I'm at it.  Make the 1800S into the sports car it should have been. Not just giving it a more powerful drivetrain, but also modernizing the suspension, brakes, diff, everything. Shooting for classic look inside and out, but everything under the skin is modern, performance parts.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

My comment would be that it is a nice car to convert.
I think you are asking a lot of performance but if you have deep pockets and the ability to see a project through no matter what then why not.

Have you look to see if there is space for all the cells in the 90ah format you are planning? Where would all the weight distribute and have you enough capacity for it in the car without overloading it?


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## x88x (Aug 19, 2011)

Not necessarily _deep_ pockets (trying to keep the electric components under/around $20,000), but I'm going to be doing all the work myself, so that'll cut out a lot of cost. I'm expecting most of the _time_ to be spent restoring/modernizing the car, and the majority of the _money_ to be spent on electronics components. I'm hoping to get the car soon, so should be able to start the labor intensive part, and unless this hurricane hits us hard, I'm hoping to be able to get measurements this weekend.

As for weight, fortunately there's a big modification community guilt around the 1800's, so I've been able to find some numbers on what I can expect to pull out. From what I've found, I should be pulling at least ~500-600lb, including the ~74lb of fuel that a full tank (45L) would weigh. According to my calculations, with current tech, I should be putting probably around ~700-850lb in. Hopefully that'll decrease by the time I'm actually buying components. I took a look at the 180Ah CALB cells, and they actually come out to ~1.13ft^3 less volume and ~40lb lighter for ~$600 more for the pack, so those I'm thinking would be a better option right now than the 90Ah TS cells if I go with a 144V system. Plus, if ..whatever TS is calling themselves now..I forget.. deliver on that 200Ah cell the same size as the 180Ah CALB, and the $1/Ah price point they mentioned, that should come out to a bit less than the CALBs even after shipping/import/etc. And if they can deliver that $1/Ah from the US distribution centers they're talking about rolling out...  The BLDC motors I'm looking at (link in the OP) want at least 200V, which is why I'm considering the 90A. Not much info available on those motors/controllers yet though; I've only seen one person so far who's actually using it, and he hasn't actually gotten it on the road yet. They are smaller and lighter (by ~35-50lb) than the equivalent WarP motors, and watercooled, so they are appealing...but not really something I would want to jump into blind, you know?

I haven't been able to find the original rated GVWR for the vehicle yet, but I would imagine that an additional ~200lb shouldn't be a problem (it's a Volvo after all), especially with the suspension upgrades I'll be doing.

The P1800S does have quite a long, wide, trunk, so if I can fit a battery box underneath the floor of that (I'll have to check what's actually underneath the trunk first...), or inside it if there's not space underneath, plus some mounted in the relatively massive engine bay (apparently people regularly shove V8's in these things..) and the space that's currently taken up by the fuel tank, I think the cells should all fit. a I might not have a trunk, but if I need to move anything big, that's what my truck is for...besides, there's always the back seat. Looking at my vehicle use the last few years, I rarely need any more cargo space than the passenger seat anyways.

EDIT:
I should add; the 100mi (~75mi min) range and 60-65mph cruising are the most important, 85mph+ top end will just make it more convenient (and, I don't _think_ should be a problem if I leave the transmission in) and the 0-60 time is largely just for fun.  I would like to get that to 8s at the very least though.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

That's bigger then my buget. lol 

When you get the car it is worth making up card board mock ups of the main components, the motor, the controller and the batteries.

When I was working on converting my MR2 I made a wooden block mock up of a 200ah cell and then found that where I thought they would go was just too tight or too short to fit them in.
As you work out the pack configuration you can make up a box to include insulation, cables entry, terminal clearence and then see if it will go in the space allocated for it.
The same goes for the motor, include the terminal bolts if space is tight.

Your requirements are not to dissimilar to mine, I want 70miles at 70mph. I'm doing it by building a trike to save weight and have a smaller pack. I made a poor start at it by getting a huge 12" motor and then reducing to an 11" motor and then getting the hot rod bug about it!


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## x88x (Aug 19, 2011)

I hadn't checked out your trike build before; sounds fun. 

The cardboard mockups is a good idea. I've done that before with computer modding and it is definitely a huge benefit.

I'm hoping that by the time I have the money saved I'll be able to get either more battery for the money or less money for the same amount of battery capacity. As far as cost, basically I started out looking at what I wanted it to do, and ended up with currently ~$16,000-$20,000 as the target to hit...so I'll be saving for the next couple years while I work on the relatively cheap but time-intensive part, and hopefully reaching both goals at around the same time.

I meant to ask. You said you think I'm asking a lot of performance; was that referencing a specific component, or just in general? Hell, performance is half what this build is shooting for. >


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

x88x said:


> I meant to ask. You said you think I'm asking a lot of performance; was that referencing a specific component, or just in general? Hell, performance is half what this build is shooting for. >


I've not had time to check your figures but the range, speed and acceleration are nearer the top end of the average build I guess. It will all come down to how much energy is needed to move the car and keep it moving.
Good components and light car is half the battle, the battery pack is the other half and maybe more then half.
I also think I misread and thought you wanted 100 miles at 85mph with 6sec 0-60 all in one go.
75miles at 65mph could be done with a big enough pack.


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## x88x (Aug 19, 2011)

Ok, just wanted to make sure I wasn't missing something about some components. For power consumption, I'm really hoping that the figure I found for aerodynamic resistance at 62mph (18.3kW) is correct, because that would fit right into my estimates, giving me about 70 miles at 62mph to 80%DOD of the pack I have in mind currently. I'm also hoping to decrease the rolling resistance from the original (though it had pretty skinny tires originally...), so hopefully that'll give me a little edge. Also, the area around where I live is fortunately pretty flat, so not much in the way of inclines to climb.

I just wish there were a way of adding another 'module' of sorts to the pack to extend the range without using small, more expensive, space-wasting cells. In case I underestimate power consumption. I suppose I could always add another section in series and increase the voltage. Then it would just be operating at a lower percentage of the potential...hmmm...


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## Guest (Aug 25, 2011)

Nice car. Love the look. Sporty and unique. Good choice. Just because no one else has done one does not mean its a bad choice by any means. 100 mile range may be challenging but it is very possible. Space constraints will limit your capacity. Use lithium only. No lead. Performance of 85 mph or better. Yes that is quite attainable. So is having both the distance you want and speed. You won't be using the speed as much as the quickness. It may not be a 0-60 in 9 seconds but you could get close. You may get a good reliable range of 70 miles at freeway speeds of 55 to 65 mph. Motor should be at minimum a 9" Warp or Kostov. Minimum. If you can put in a different final drive gear ration to better utilize the electric motors sweet spot then do so. You will more than likely be using 3rd and 4th most of the time. Some 1st and 2nd. Set it up right and you can utilize all 4 speeds and get good performance and distances. Make the car nice and clean too. No junk. Its to nice of a car to do a conversion as a junk pile. That is a nice classic. 

Here is a very nice example:











Pete


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## x88x (Aug 19, 2011)

Heheh, yup, I'm definitely going to be making this thing look as good as possible.  That's a lot of what I'll be working on while I save the money for the parts; bodywork (got a few rusty spots and one of the headlights is caved in), pulling out ICE stuff, cleaning it up, probably gonna have to get some stuff re-chromed, I'm gonna have to basically tear out the interior and start from scratch...but that's ok, it's not like there's that much there to begin with.  I'm also going to be adding A/C, converting the rear brakes to discs, and several other things, many of which I probably have no idea yet that I'll be doing. 

And don't worry, I'm definitely going with Lithium.  Anything less would be a waste of time and money, imo.

TBH, I would be happy with a top speed of 80-85 because that's about the fastest I've been in any of my vehicles the last few years driving around here...and aside from a few states out west, I don't really see a use for going faster than that. ...that being said, if it happens to be able to go faster than that, I won't complain.  I found the stock gear ratios the other day.
(1) 3.13:1
(2) 1.99:1
(3) 1.36:1
(4) 1.00:1
(5) 0.77:1
Especially with the amount of other work I'll be doing on this thing, I wouldn't be averse to changing either the gears or the whole transmission in order to get the optimal ratios. In fact, I would much prefer to put in a bit more (relatively) work and get the best performance and efficiency possible than spend years driving it around in a less than optimal condition.

No clue what the diff ratio is though, so idk what top speed I could expect with what motor RPM, but I'm planning on replacing the stock diff with a limited slip diff anyway, so the stock ratio doesn't really matter.

I am encouraged in that according to the specs I've found, the original engine could only put a maximum of 30.4kW to the wheels. That makes me hopeful for the acceleration because if it did ~17.5s 0-60 with a max of 30.4kW, if I'm putting out possibly 5 or more times that power to the wheels during initial acceleration... 

I'm honestly surprised that there aren't more classic conversions. I feel like the group of people attracted to doing electric conversions and the group of people attracted to doing classic restorations would have a lot of overlap. I've seen plenty of Porsche's (god I'm sick of seeing 914's...don't get me wrong, they're nice cars, great for conversions, I just feel like I see one every time I turn around...) and a few Fiat's here and there, and every now and then something different, but it's a shame that there isn't a wider variety. Sure, they're usually not the most aerodynamic things, but there are so many beautiful cars out there screaming for conversions. ..but then, I think car design for the most part peaked in the 60's, so I supposed I'm biased.  IDK, I guess it's all a personal thing really. The balance between an easy and proven conversion like the S-10 or beetle, and much more work having to figure out all the individual complications for something unique. Personally I would rather spend more money and time and end up with something beautiful and unique.


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## glaurung (Nov 11, 2009)

Hi x88x,
i drive my Classic Range Rover ev every day and hope to finish Jaguar XJS conversion before next year. So classics are good candidates
My first car was Volvo 121, Amazon like we call it here, and i assembled it many time in different configurations. It has more or less same parts that 1800. Very simple and reliable. Can be upgraded to what ever needs.
I decided to use rover v8, auto and 140 Volvo rear axle.With race suspension. That was 1992. I still have the car and hope to convert that "some day"
So installing electric motor and suitable gearbox should be quite easy. Just notice that original gearbox is very compact. If you do not want to make any modifications to floor or interior you need a small gearbox to fit. 
Anyway, great donor. Good luck
Harri


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## x88x (Aug 19, 2011)

I do love the XJS.  Subscribed to that thread now...

There does seem to be a fairly significant number of people doing performance modifications to P1800's, so I should be able to cheat off of them for some of the parts, which will make my life easier. Should make finding a suitable transmission, brakes, etc, a bit simpler.

I hope you do convert that Amazon some day; I think it would make a great conversion. About the same weight as the P1800 but more space. ...personally I like the styling of the P1800 better, but hey, that's why I'm doing one of those, not an Amazon, neh?


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## powerhouse (Apr 1, 2011)

That green car is beautiful. Im a kid that thinks Lambo's and Ferrari's are good looking, so finding an old car I find attractive is a little rare. 

Plan for the worst. Assume that the car will use 300wh's every mile. Based off of that, to get an 100 mile range, you will need ~ 36kwh's. Thats a lot of batteries :O
Calb / thundersky's will probably be your cheapest choice, however I would recommend looking into GBS batteries, since I have heard they are much more consistent and reliable. 

In order to get a 0-60mph time of <6 seconds you will probably need a Zilla 2k and a battery pack capable of supplying 2000Amps. Not to mention, in order to get the power to the wheels after the first 1.5 seconds of gassing it, you will need a higher pack voltage. That said, it might be a wiser choice to just get a Solition Jr, or Solition. 

Another problem I see with your build, is the fact that you are also trying to restore the car at the same time. Sounds like A LOT of work! But if youre devoted, and you finish, it will be one of the coolest electric cars for sure!


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## x88x (Aug 19, 2011)

Well, I won't exactly be restoring it at the same time...more like one after the other...but yes, you are definitely correct that it will be a lot of work.

If I assume 300Wh/mi, that would raise the battery cost to ~$15,000 for a 192V 200Ah pack of TS cells. Hopefully that'll be down and I'll have a better idea of what to actually expect in terms of power consumption by the time I'm buying the pack, but if I do expect 300Wh/mi and get 200, that'll give me the added benefit of getting up to 150mi/charge...which actually would let it even replace my ICE car for visiting any of my immediate family..which would be nice.

For 0-60 acceleration, I did a bit of fiddling with this calculator:
http://www.060calculator.com/
And if the numbers are generally transferable between ICE and electric, then I come up with this range of power relationships assuming a 2,600lb vehicle weight:









I also converted the guy's equations into a spreadsheet (thanks dude for not obfuscating your javascript!  ), so if anyone's interested in seeing how a range of power levels might affect your acceleration, feel free to grab whichever format you prefer.
http://www.filesonic.com/file/1761642794/0-60_times.ods
http://www.filesonic.com/file/1761642814/0-60_times.xls

So, if those equations are directly applicable to EVs, then according to the numbers, if I can achieve 180kW during acceleration, I can break 5s. If I use a controller that can put out 1,000A and up my pack voltage to 192V, if I assume 300Wh/mi, that would give me a 192V200Ah pack, that would only have to maintain 5C discharges for maybe a max of 10s...which I believe would be feasible even with current TS or CALB cells. Granted the voltage would sag a bit under that heavy load, so maybe up the pack voltage to ~201.6V...not that big a cost increase, considering; only 3 more cells in series. Comes out to ~$16,000 for the pack...hopefully that'll come down a good bit over the next couple years while I save to actually buy the damn thing.  Of course, to up the voltage that high I would need to go with the WarP 11 HV. That brings the component cost higher than I wanted it to be, but given how much the industry has changed in just the last 6 months that I've been paying attention, I'm guessing it'll change much more in the next 2 years.

It's also interesting to see with that chart how weight affects acceleration. For example, if I can get the weight down to 2400, according to that chart I would only need 165kW to break 5s. So, we'll see how much of that Swedish steel I can lose.


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## powerhouse (Apr 1, 2011)

I think those 0-60 times appear to me to be a little exaggerated. You have to consider that a car @144v with a solition 1 will not go 0-60 in less than 6 seconds. More like 11 seconds. My car has a low drag coefficient, and even at (>700KW) peak power, it will prob have a 0-60 time of 4ish seconds. Plan for the worst, hope for the best. If you designed a system of 255V at 1000 Amps (>255KW after voltage sag), you would probably have a 0-60 time of around 7-8 seconds. I wish the numbers in that graph were realistic, building fast cars would be much more feasible!!


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## x88x (Aug 19, 2011)

Well, it will likely depend a lot on how well I can put that power to the road. For example, White Zombie (I use this as an example a lot because it's the only EV I know of that the owner has posted exhaustive, detailed, records of power use, performance, etc). It weighs 2348lb, produces a max of ~710kW at launch, and goes from 0-60 in ~1.8s, and they seem to have a bit of trouble actually maintaining grip at low speeds and max power. That 0-60 equation comes up with a 0-60 time of 1.644s. Not _that_ far off. Disclaimer, of course, is that I don't actually have any real experience with this, so I could be missing or misinterpreting something, idk.


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## powerhouse (Apr 1, 2011)

I guess that is true, downloading the 0-60 time calculator... Thanks for the upload!


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## x88x (Aug 19, 2011)

Also keep in mind that I'm using a transmission, so the torque at the wheel will be greater than if I were doing direct drive, which should translate into a faster launch off the line.


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## 71P1800 (Jul 17, 2013)

Any update on your P1800? Sounds like a great project.


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