# My Volt-Powered Test Drive



## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

No mention on how fast he drove the car.....


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## Jason Lattimer (Dec 27, 2008)

I am so sick of hearing about this damn car. They make it sound like it is the only game in town. All it is is another series hybrid like they should have been making from day one. This is the first real hybrid an automaker has built. The Prius and cars like it are "mild hybrids".

Why can't the media focus on some of the better cars out there. How about the Triac with a 100 mile charge and 80mph top speed at 23,000 dollars? Its says its built in California.

There are plenty more like it that people can afford. Nobody is going to be falling all over themselves to buy a 40,000 dollar car the size of a Prius.


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## Topguner2 (Sep 5, 2008)

Jason Lattimer said:


> Nobody is going to be falling all over themselves to buy a 40,000 dollar car the size of a Prius.


 
I disagree. I think the supply will not be able to keep up with the demand. They will sell every one they produce. If they produce them at all.


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

It depends on what the car car really do if it ever makes it to dealer lots. If they could have produced and sold them at 20k each AND (this is the bigger catch), the car can actually get 60 MPG, then sure they will sell them.

Now GM says they will sell for about 40K at a loss and I still have my doubts that they are even drivable in the current form.

Add to that a car made in china that is said to match the volt point for point in projected performance at half the cost, and you start to wonder if the volt is too little too late. National pride might be enough to keep a few people from buying an import from china, but a 50% price difference will be hard to beat.

The chinese car had better be really bad or the volt really good, because if only tom hanks and his friends buy a few, its not going to be enough sales to keep the volt afloat.

I know I'll never buy one....


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## saab96 (Mar 19, 2008)

Nobody buys Chinese cars in the US. Nobody. If China breaks into the US they will have to earn respect just like the Japanese and the Koreans did.


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

Do you realize how many chinese made parts there already are on american vehicles? GM has been assembling engines in china for a few years now. I agree they will have to earn the respect of the american consumer, but when you can offer a car at half the price with warranty do you thing people won't be tempted?


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## saab96 (Mar 19, 2008)

david85 said:


> Do you realize how many chinese made parts there already are on american vehicles?


Chinese made products are only as good as the american companies that run the QC on them. When the Chinese sell their own stuff, that QC tends not to get done. There was a clip on youtube from some guy who bought a Chinese car. He's talking into the camcorder as he's driving and the thing sounds like it has a blown muffler. He's talking about all the crap that pretty much started breaking the second he took ownership of the thing. If that's what BYD is going to ship, then it's dead on arrival. China will quickly wind up with a reputation worse than the Yugo if they don't clean up their act.


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## Qer (May 7, 2008)

Topguner2 said:


> They will sell every one they produce. If they produce them at all.


That's the general problem it seems. Volvo, for example, were showing hybrid prototypes and concept cars already back in the 80's, then it just kinda faded away and nothing ever came out of it and GM has started to produce and then cancel electrical cars is it two times now? Toyota, on the other hand, not only got past the concept and prototype stage and started to produce Prius, they've actually sold quite a big number of them.

Unfortunately I'm not very impressed by the performance of the Prius since I have to go faster than 50 km/h, which makes the Prius pretty pointless for me anyway. More or less any car in the same size will be cheaper to drive (especially since even a second hand Prius is pretty expensive) since my average commuting speed tends to be 70-80 km/h rather than 50. I'm still not ruling out that we'll see a massive death of the known brands (GM, Ford, VAG etc) and that they, within a few years, will be replaced by newer, more innovative brands that actually dares to take the full leap and embrace new technology.

Or with other words, I'm not exactly holding my breath while waiting for the existing manufacturers to build a car that will fit my needs...


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## namyzarc (Mar 18, 2008)

I don't understand everyone's insistence on poo-poo-ing every car that every car manufacturer has made!
Comments like:
The prius is not fast enough or cheap cheap enough or as fuel-efficient as the Volt.
The Volt is too expensive. 
All hybrids still use gas so they all suck, (even though I can't drive more than 50 miles on my own EV conversion!)

For crying out F*ing loud, HOW do you expect a manufacturer to make a 4-door vehicle COMPLETELY electric, with todays technology, battery density & battery prices, that can travel a distance that MOST people will be happy with (for me this distance would be around 120 miles, for others, it may differ) that costs around $20000???? Please do the math for me or show me ANY conversion or currently available car out there (that cost around $20000 and didn't use a $500 rust bucket as a donor) that achieves this. Are these cars as SAFE and as RELIABLE as existing cars? 
And even if such a car existed, should I be OK with spending $20000 to replace my existing Acura RSX which gets 31mpg combined based on my driving and can take me from the east coast to the west coast stopping only for gas, sleep and bathroom breaks, with a car that will travel only 120 miles after 8 or even 4 hours of charging? I don't WANT to rent a car when I feel like taking off on a whim, I don't WANT to own 2 cars & pay 2 insurance premiums when I only have a single car garage.
I am on this site because I love the concept of electric cars, and I WANT to build one for myself DESPITE all the limitations I mentioned above. I believe it's the way of the future and I believe it's important to protect that future... put please lets not bitch & moan about the price of a car or it's technology when quite frankly YOU can't do any better RIGHT NOW.
Lets all accept this:
The limited range and recharge time of any electric car is today, a LIMITATION for the average Joe, and if Average Joe would even consider buying a car with those LIMITATIONS, then average Joe would want to pay LESS money for such a car. Not MORE. I do not see this beeing possible TODAY. In the future I believe & hope that will change.
The Volt IMO, will not be priced right for the majority of people that would be interested in this car. At the same time, considering it has 2 drivetrains, I also don't believe the price can be improved much...
</rant>


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## namyzarc (Mar 18, 2008)

saab96 said:


> Nobody buys Chinese cars in the US. Nobody. If China breaks into the US they will have to earn respect just like the Japanese and the Koreans did.


I agree. On top of that I have on seen an actual test drive of this car that puts the companies claims to the test.


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

namyzarc said:


> I don't understand everyone's insistence on poo-poo-ing every car that every car manufacturer has made!
> Comments like:
> The prius is not fast enough or cheap cheap enough or as fuel-efficient as the Volt.
> The Volt is too expensive.
> ...


Feel free to rant, but I'll have to respectfully disagree with your pretense. I am building a car that is based on a $750 donor (not a rust bucket) that could end up costing around $25 000 USD by the time its done. What you didn't account for is the fact that GM has high buying power and could indeed get the same parts as me for about half the price with enough volume order. The steel body shell and rolling chassis is practically peanuts compared to the cost of the powertrain and luxury systems that are integrated into the average car.

I anticipate a minmum range of 100 miles for my car and power better than stock, but its all just on paper now so I can't prove anything to you until its done.

But I am confident in my assertion that GM, toyota and the rest could have done much better and much more quickly than what they are offering right now. I'm not willing to settle for less even if some say it encourages a general move in a better direction.

As far as BYD's $20 000 hybrid, time will tell if it is any good compared to domestic brands, but just because something is made in china does not mean its automatically junk. I would say the same for something made anywhere in the world.


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## namyzarc (Mar 18, 2008)

david85 said:


> Feel free to rant, but I'll have to respectfully disagree with your pretense. I am building a car that is based on a $750 donor (not a rust bucket) that could end up costing around $25 000 USD by the time its done. What you didn't account for is the fact that GM has high buying power and could indeed get the same parts as me for about half the price with enough volume order. The steel body shell and rolling chassis is practically peanuts compared to the cost of the powertrain and luxury systems that are integrated into the average car.
> 
> I anticipate a minmum range of 100 miles for my car and power better than stock, but its all just on paper now so I can't prove anything to you until its done.
> 
> ...


David, I don't know anything about your particular car, but for $750, am I correct in assuming it's an older used car? If you were to purchase a 2009 model year car from the factory, without any ICE components and then add the batteries, motor & controller of your choice where would your budget stand? I do agree with your viewpoint that an established auto manufacturer should be able to produce something similar for significantly less. However the cars other here are ranting about, are not pure electrics. They are not meant to be. They have 2 drivetrains because the manfacturers are trying to compensate for a pure electrics limited range & long refueling time by retaining the ICE as a generator. Would your conversion be able to travel as far as a Volt or Prius in the same amount of time? If you retained the ICE on our theoretical $20k 2009 car as a generator & added LiON or LiFe batteries + motor + controller + for a 40 mile range AND wanted to make a profit from selling your conversion where would this budget stand?
A serial hybrid like the volt is not a terrile idea IMO, but I doubt the price can come in at much under $30k (in the near future), even from a major maufacturer. I certainly hope I am wrong about this.
Personally, I think that electrified highways & major roads in conjunction with LiPo, LiFe or similar batteries that would give at least 100 miles range (no ICE at all) is the ultimate answer. In the mean time? We have the stepping stones... prius, volt, tesla... all good in their own way even if they're not exactly what we all want or price where we want.


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

The car is 12 years old, so yes its used. However its hard to make a comparison to buying a new car since we don't really know how much it costs the company to make the assembled car less the powertrain. You can bet its no where near the sticker price that you or I would have to pay.

I am also paying low volume prices (practically retail) for my battery. In reality, my $16000 battery could probably be ordered for less than half that if a large enough purchase was made. I should also mention that my battery has a much larger storage capacity. Motors and controllers can be mass produced at lower prices than any ICE powertrain out there. Manufacturing time is less, raw materials are less, and the amount of parts needed are less.

My hostility toward cars like the prius, volt and other factory made "green cars" comes from the fact that these companies used to make all electric cars and they can do better than this right now, not 10 years later. We have hybrids instead because electric cars were halted. The volt is pitched as being revolutionary, but it really isn't. The EV1 was made into several series hybrid prototypes (turbine, gas and diesel) all of which got close to 90 MPG. There were also plans for a 4 door EV1 that never happened because the project was cancelled. I don't see this as evolution, they are dragging their feet.

My opinion doesn't really matter all that much because I'll never buy a new car anyway, so take my view for the low value that it carries.


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## Technologic (Jul 20, 2008)

david85 said:


> The car is 12 years old, so yes its used. However its hard to make a comparison to buying a new car since we don't really know how much it costs the company to make the assembled car less the powertrain. You can bet its no where near the sticker price that you or I would have to pay.
> .


The hyundai elantra's "shell" I have on good authority (friend who dealt with the direct factory for a number of years) costs the company about $1500 fully assembled.

Motors, transmissions are the more expensive things... but even the motors are about 800-$1000 tops fully assembled.

People forget too quickly that beyond a few pieces of stamped steel a couple pieces of glass there really isn't anything to a car. And windshields in volume (500k+ yr) are $20-30 in Korea or China. The rest is just pressed 1/16" or 1/32" steel Which last I checked was 65 cents/lb in china.

Assume maybe double that in labor... add up the total weight of the car's shell (about 1500 lbs) and you get a pretty damn close to $1500 for the price of a shell of a car.

But then again the elantra is often sold for $8000 brand new in the US... assuming a 30% mark up on that and 10% importation tariffs... the car only costs the company about $3000-4000 to get it on a boat... which is about right from my experience.


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## Technologic (Jul 20, 2008)

Topguner2 said:


> I disagree. I think the supply will not be able to keep up with the demand. They will sell every one they produce. If they produce them at all.


It's pretty easy to meet a sales figure for a car that only 50k will probably get produced because GM will be lagging behind.

Nobody is going to buy this car over a prius though, period.


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