# planning 1994 Renault Twingo conversion



## etlaare (Aug 25, 2009)

Not sure if this is the right place to keep you all involved about the progress.
So please stop me if it's annoying I share my little victories with you all.

But what better thing to do on a bright Saturday than to remove a defective gasoline engine ? 
The Twingo turns out to be such a nice and easy car to work on. As an example, all the engine electronics were totally separated from the other mechanical electrics and lights. They even had separated 12V leads coming to the battery. Meaning: Everything is still functional while all wires that had to do with the engine have been removed in one large bundle even without cutting anything. The only thing I have to reconnect now are the wires for the speedometer that plugs into the gearbox (it's digital so I do cross my fingers for a couple of weeks  ). But everything else just works as it should. I even managed to repair the windshield blower on the go. The digital display shows an empty fuel tank now. And while admiring that I suddenly started tinkering a bit on how to turn that into a battery status indicator. I might need your help with that, but it's one of the lowest priorities on my list at the moment.

So fuel tank and exhaust are removed as well and there is just some deep space waiting for the combined motor, gearbox and transmission to be lowered into.

It seems I only need to adapt one engine mount as the other 2 are connected to the gearbox, unless some of you would recommend an extra mount somewhere. I read some posts about replacing or even removing the rubber mounts. But what would be the drawback to leave them where they are ?

Activity will be moved to my little workshop now as I have the gearbox available ready do be measured for the connection plate that has to be constructed.

Are there any hints on best/proven ways to lineup the motor and the gearbox ?

Please fire any comments or questions, In this phase I am still flexible enough I think/hope.

Regards,
Ed


----------



## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

That's a cute little car you're converting there.

The motor looks plenty big enough. I don't know enough about them to say what you can put through it though. Have you thought about the adaptor to the gearbox yet? Clutch or clutchless?
The fuel gauge may not be much use as a battery monitor as you would want to have more information then it would show.

There are a few options on the vacuum pump for the brakes. You could buy one from an EV parts website or you can find an electric vacuum pump from another car. I got one from a Saab 9000 but I have decided to use the aircon compressor as a vacuum pump as it is there and I can use the electric clutch to control it. Another option is to use an alternator with a built in vacuum pump and that will give you the 12v to charge the accessories battery as well. It isn't as efficient as a dc/dc converter though.
There is one chap here, Simon Rafferty, who has made, his own vacuum pump using a reciprocating piston in a small cylinder driven by a windscreen wiper motor. Makes a sound like a steam engine apparently.

I would opt for keeping the engine mounts from the chassis to the rubber as conventional as possible so that they are able to absorb the torque movement of the transmission as much as possible. Just change the engine side of the mount to fit the motor.

I made my adaptor mesurements by setting an x and y axis through the end of the primary shaft and through a convenent bolt hole and then measure off the co-ordinates of each hole. I was then avised that it would be easier to place a large sheet of paper over the bell housing and then, with a greasy finger, rub over each bolt hole ad the casting to leave a dirty outline of the bell housing and the holes. That made it easier to measure the co-ordinates. Getting the centre of the primary shaft can be a litlte more difficult as some shafts have some play in them. I found with my belhousing that there was a circular outline of the bell housing inside edge was concentric about the shaft so I just spent some time with a centre finder on the paper to locate it.


----------



## etlaare (Aug 25, 2009)

Thank you Woodsmith, those are already great hints.

And yes, I decided to go clutchless, mainly because of the size of the motor and it seems a little easier to implement.

I'll drop the fuel gauge battery monitor idea. Maybe I program the dots as a night rider like walking led's series instead.

I was collecting car brands at a multi-brands dealer this morning that have electric vacuum pumps. Some Japanese and Korean brands seem to have them as well, but your Saab 9000 sounds as a great tip. We might have some more Saabs on the scrap yards where I live. 
I was experimenting a little with changing the little valves of an emergency electric tire pump. My wife drives a company car that runs on Liquid Petrol with the tank placed where the spare wheel used to be. Once she had a flat tire and used the emergency repair, She got a complete new set. But indeed, such piston solutions make a lot of noise.. 
The ev-parts versions I have found so far seems above budget for me though.. ah well, there's plenty of other things to do first while still looking around. Or would you maybe be willing to sell your Saab 9000 version ?

When you wrote clutch and vacuum pump in one sentence I had a flashing brainwave of operating a pump on muscle power by connecting it to the clutch pedal to keep the pressure down with your own foot while driving and using an audible alarm when the pressure drops too high  (could not resist mentioning it .. but nah, lets not even try that)

I am very happy with your mounts answer as I had no real clue how to convert them into a more firm mount anyway.

And the adapter measurements surely looks as a way to go.
It will be one of the first things to look into from where I am now.

Many thanks

And wow... that MR2 looks so awesome


----------



## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

The Saab pump I have is noisy, here is a video of it.


The AC compressor is a lot quieter.
You can see the develpment of it on my build thread from post 182.

I'm sure there are lots of cars now using an electric vacuum pump just as there are lots with electric power steering. However, some are only able to produce a low level of vacuum. The Americans seem to recommend around 20-25 inches of mercury as a suitable vacuum, I found that my brake pedal felt fine with 11"hg but that was static without the car moving. It would be worth checking how it feels.

One of the downsides of converting a pressure pump for a vacuum is that many are not able to pull sufficient vacuum. They are designed to push a fairly dense gas through a valve but they can't pull a decreasing density of gas through a valve and then push it out another. That is one reason why commercial and industrial vacuum pumps are so much more expensive then pressure pumps.


----------



## etlaare (Aug 25, 2009)

took the clutch disc apart today and machined a ring that can connect the spline part of the disc brake that came with the motor to the flywheel (yes, connecting two splines here).

I also found a cheap IGBT on e-bay, seems I will make myself a controller with that now. Using some of the 68HC11 boards I still have available for the pwm and safety checks (hall effect sensor, temperature, pre-charge sequence, break/throttle pedal check at startup). 

Does any of you have experience with IGBT blocks (got one for 1/10th of the regular price, I simply couldn't resist) ?

It seems capabable of handling a 16KHz wpm frequency easilly, 500A 1500V (eeeeeeps !!) I hope saturation will not be too much, there always seems a voltage loss with them.

hmm.. maybe I should have posted that in the controller section...


----------



## jackbauer (Jan 12, 2008)

Take a read through my build thread when you have the time:
http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showthread.php/brushed-motor-works-35098.html

I'm using a brake vacuum pump that i got cheaply from the US ebay. I'm also using the open source controller main pcb driving an igbt power stage. One of the best tips I got on here was to drop the pwm frequency to 8khz. this solves a lot of problems and was easy to accomplish by use of an 8mhz crystal on the micro.


----------



## etlaare (Aug 25, 2009)

wow

many very interesting topics in your thread, thanks.
Can you hear the pwm at 8KHz ??
I would figure the frequency would depends on how fast the IGBT can switch, there seem to be many differences with different models there. 

Maybe I browsed your thread too quickly, but is there a drawing on how you connected the IGBT or is that on one of the video's ?

I never knew there were pneumatic shrinkers, I want one  !!

thank you for the link


----------



## jackbauer (Jan 12, 2008)

The 8khz is only barely audible at low currents and speeds. Inaudible as current increases. Remember switching speed is not switching frequency The hydraulic crimper cost about 50 euros on ebay and has worked great.


----------



## etlaare (Aug 25, 2009)

jackbauer said:


> The 8khz is only barely audible at low currents and speeds. Inaudible as current increases. Remember switching speed is not switching frequency


Ahhh yes, true off course. That will help a lot. Also to reduce the skin effect since I just learned that at 16KHz that turned out to be a significant factor as well. 

I still didn't went through all of your thread yet, but did you make a drawing of the power part ? I always thought the Insulation of the IGBT's meant the optocouplers where in the IGBT's so I did not need to use a gate driver, but somehow it seems I still do. Are you using one ?

sorry for all the questions suddenly ...


----------



## Jan (Oct 5, 2009)

Hi Ed,

Any idea yet where or how to make the adaptor plate? Y

Groeten uit Gouda.


----------



## etlaare (Aug 25, 2009)

Jan said:


> Hi Ed,
> 
> Any idea yet where or how to make the adaptor plate? Y
> 
> Groeten uit Gouda.


Hi there Jan,

earlier in this thread woodsmith indicated a nice way to get the proper measurements to make a plate. I still have to precisely measure the required thickness of the plate when the flywheel is completely assembled. I am trying to get my hands on some high grade bolts for that which seems a little harder to find as I had expected. I will have to cut a little off the gearbox axle as well as I don't have too much margin to get it to fit, but so far it still seems do-able. I found a few sources for thick aluminum although not cheap, so when I know the exact thickness I might shop around a little more before buying it. 

In the meanwhile I will be programming my 68HC11 to A/D the potentiometer and slowly adapt the pwm accordingly as it seems I will have to do some testing with the IGBT that I found on e-bay.

Working on two fronts here, depending on the temperatures in the garage.










With an estimated thickness for the plate I expect to require 46 centimeters. I will have another centimeter more margin now as I can remove more of the disc brake mounting assembly on the back of the motor which I was not certain of a couple of days ago. But it's tight and it might take some patience to get it all lowered under the hood.


----------



## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

etlaare said:


> Hi there Jan,
> 
> earlier in this thread woodsmith indicated a nice way to get the proper measurements to make a plate. I still have to precisely measure the required thickness of the plate when the flywheel is completely assembled. I am trying to get my hands on some high grade bolts for that which seems a little harder to find as I had expected. I will have to cut a little off the gearbox axle as well as I don't have too much margin to get it to fit, but so far it still seems do-able. I found a few sources for thick aluminum although not cheap, so when I know the exact thickness I might shop around a little more before buying it.


This is what I bought for my adaptor plate.
484mm diameter 19mm thick on ebay.

I just search for Aluminium plate xxmm thick on ebay and work through the sizes until I find what I need.


----------



## Jan (Oct 5, 2009)

etlaare said:


> earlier in this thread woodsmith indicated a nice way to get the proper measurements to make a plate.


AH, ok. you're making it yourself... Brave. 



> In the meanwhile I will be programming my 68HC11 to A/D the potentiometer and slowly adapt the pwm accordingly as it seems I will have to do some testing with the IGBT that I found on e-bay.


Yes, who doesn't?


----------



## miniUMM (Jun 25, 2009)

This is a twingo from a company in portugal :
http://www.youtube.com/user/sismelv

Many they can help you :
http://sismelv.com/


----------



## etlaare (Aug 25, 2009)

Thank you miniUMM,

I love those video's, specially the one where the camera got distracted by that noise maker 
And see, I knew it, a Twingo is simply the perfect choice for an ev-conversion 

I just wonder how they managed to keep access to the spare wheel underneath those batteries...

Anyway.... made me a coupler today (well, almost finished).

I adapted the plate that was on the back of the motor for the drum-break a little.










This ring will center on it and has holes to fit the remainings of the clutch-plate which I took apart.










Here they are bolted together using grade 10 bolts.










And then on top comes the clutch plate, making the connector flywheel complete.










well, cheating a little bit here, I still have to make the buses in between, and they will all have to be measured to the same length very precisely, finally a real purpose for my digital caliper (it measures up to 1/100 of a millimeter, I just hope it is a little consistent. Bolting it all together then very firmly and running some balance tests.

The igbt I found on ebay arrived today. 600A... I cant wait to run some tests with that as well. I should still have some huge capacitors on my attic ..(somewhere ..ohoh .. an extra challenge ...finding something on my attic .. ) to match it.


----------



## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

Nice looking coupler there, Ed.
Shiny shiny!

Are you going to drive your transmission from the com end of the motor? Do check the direction of rotation and the security of mounting the motor on the com end plate.


----------



## jackbauer (Jan 12, 2008)

That igbt is the 600amp version of the one I used in my controller. You'll need a mosfet driver with good capacity. I think the one i used is a 9amp. What freewheel diode are you using? You need one with a soft recovery. I used abother igbt with its gate emitter shorted as the freewheel.


----------



## etlaare (Aug 25, 2009)

jackbauer said:


> That igbt is the 600amp version of the one I used in my controller. You'll need a mosfet driver with good capacity. I think the one i used is a 9amp. What freewheel diode are you using? You need one with a soft recovery. I used abother igbt with its gate emitter shorted as the freewheel.


Thank you for the tips again Jack. They are very valuable. I will have to spend some time on my attic to see what I have available there, but if there is a diode you would recommend I am all ears.

The company I work for (IBM) used to have what we called a "hobby club". All sorts of electronics that were out of date or obsolete were sold for a euro/kg. I could not resist buying huge power supplies that are now catching dust up there. Hopefully I still find something usable in between them.


----------



## etlaare (Aug 25, 2009)

Woodsmith said:


> Are you going to drive your transmission from the com end of the motor? Do check the direction of rotation and the security of mounting the motor on the com end plate.


Both sides of the motor have the same spline so the connector fits on the normal end and yes I checked the direction. First time I tested the motor I was so excited I forgot to look at it at all, so the second time I asked my son to come and verify which way it rotated


----------



## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

etlaare said:


> Both sides of the motor have the same spline so the connector fits on the normal end and yes I checked the direction. First time I tested the motor I was so excited I forgot to look at it at all, so the second time I asked my son to come and verify which way it rotated


That's fortunate.
Though it could also be conventional. I've not seen enough suitable motors to be sure.


----------



## etlaare (Aug 25, 2009)

Woodsmith said:


> That's fortunate.
> Though it could also be conventional. I've not seen enough suitable motors to be sure.


Interesting thought. For combustion engines it might be true as most front wheel drive cars I know have the gearbox on the left side of the car, which would imply a counterclockwise turning engine (when looking towards the axle).


----------



## etlaare (Aug 25, 2009)

Did some very careful measuring today and calculated my connection plate will have to be 32mm thick... which seems a lot to me and also another challenge trying to find such a plate at a decent price....

any hint is welcome here


----------



## jackbauer (Jan 12, 2008)

Use a 20mm plate to cover the bellhousing and a smaller 12mm plate to build up the distance at the motor face. I'll sort out igbt diagram asap.


----------



## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

Have you tried Ebay for aluminium plate? There are frequently off cuts being sold that come in a variety of sizes and thicknesses.

I started off with a 19mm thick disc to cover the bell housing. I will get a second piece (or maybe two pieces) to make up the thickness I need when I have a motor to work from.


----------



## etlaare (Aug 25, 2009)

ROFL... I love your new avatar woodsmith, well done !!

And yes, spent half a night on Ebay and other sites searching for aluminum, but I guess it needs a little bit of patience to find a bargain. Also sent quote requests for some local companies. Two plates will makes things a lot easier I suddenly realize. 
And thank you Jack, I trully appreciate it. I do have a proper gate driver, it's just the power part that I have no experience with at all.

I am cleaning and painting the motor at the moment, I thought it deserved that.
And while waiting for the paint to dry I am struggling a bit programming the eeprom of a 68HC11 board to get the a/d to pwm to work (seems I got a bit rusty there, but I guess it's a good exercise). It should be rather straight forward though.


----------



## etlaare (Aug 25, 2009)

Looks almost like a brand new motor now I think.
Removed the old brake parts, cut the axle, cleaned, lubricated, painted... ready to rock and roll... nah... maybe I'll remove the "sticking out part" as well still. For a while I thought it could help resist the torque a little when mounted, but looking at other engines, it seems I don't need that ...










Just a picture of the HC11 board that will become the brain in the car. It seems the tools to program the eeprom don't work on my 64bits version of windows anymore. The small assembler program runs fine on a simulator. Spent some time on the attic again, this time looking for an old laptop to run the 68HC11 development tools (where on earth did I hide that ..??)....


----------



## jackbauer (Jan 12, 2008)

Motor looks great well done. Regards the controller my feeling would be that you'd be better to use the open source control board. Saves reinventing the wheel and all the hard work has been done!


----------



## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

Looks so different, so clean and shiny.

Unless you needed to shorten the motor it would have been good to keep the tail shaft. It is a good place to mount a sensor for the tachometer or a pulley for an alternator or any other accessory.


----------



## etlaare (Aug 25, 2009)

jackbauer said:


> Regards the controller my feeling would be that you'd be better to use the open source control board. Saves reinventing the wheel and all the hard work has been done!


The main reason to go for my own board is that in time I want to add cruise control, I have it on my CO2 emitting car as well and can hardly drive without it anymore ... I could learn to program the pic of course to add that, its jus't that I am so used to the 6800 assembler... But I read a lot of the opensource controller and have the code as well so I think I can port most functions.


----------



## etlaare (Aug 25, 2009)

Woodsmith said:


> Unless you needed to shorten the motor it would have been good to keep the tail shaft. It is a good place to mount a sensor for the tachometer or a pulley for an alternator or any other accessory.


I considered that after I read your remark about the airco vacuum pump. But indeed there's hardly any open space left at that side. I even got a little nervous finding out the connector plate would add 1 cm more as I had anticipated. I still think it will fit though, but no fancy accessories for me it seems . There's no tachometer in the donor car either, although I admit I would prefer to keep track of the rpm's ...


----------



## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

You could drill and tap some holes in the edge of your coupler plate and screw in some bolts. Two, three or four equidistant bolt heads could trigger a magnetic sensor pick up to give the pulses for a four, six or eight cylinder ICE tachometer.
It can all be mounted inside your gearbox bell housing.


----------



## etlaare (Aug 25, 2009)

Woodsmith said:


> You could drill and tap some holes in the edge of your coupler plate and screw in some bolts. Two, three or four equidistant bolt heads could trigger a magnetic sensor pick up to give the pulses for a four, six or eight cylinder ICE tachometer.
> It can all be mounted inside your gearbox bell housing.


I was thinking about that, but wouldn't there be too much magnetism to trigger a reed contact properly ?


----------



## jackbauer (Jan 12, 2008)

Use an inductive sensor like this:


----------



## etlaare (Aug 25, 2009)

I would not even have that much space at the back end 

But true, inductive would detect a change in an already magnetic field and it would fit inside the gearbox as well. My axle truly is magnetic by the way, I discovered that last night, even with the engine off (not unexpected I must admit). 

With my robots I often used shaft encoders with black and white sections of which the rotation could be detected with photoreflectors. Maybe I add one of those in the gearbox before I mount the parts together (that would actually even fit at the back now I think of it, but it would require the section to be covered to remain clean ...). So many nice things pass by to think about 

The 68HC11 has a pulse accumulator pin as well so I could even automate the overrun protection without too much extra processing (and it would still fit the limited amount of eeprom memory ).


----------



## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

etlaare said:


> I was thinking about that, but wouldn't there be too much magnetism to trigger a reed contact properly ?


A magnetic pick up, like the one in Jack's post, would have a magnet inside it and a coil of wire around it. It will sense the movement of a lump of steel passing it in the same way an electric guitar pick up senses the steel string vibrating over it. 

If you mounted the pick up on a bit of metal framework in the bell housing it could be made to line up with the edge of the coupling disc and pick up on the bolt heads as they pass.

The opto route would work in the same way but keeping it clean, as you say, would be the problem.


----------



## jackbauer (Jan 12, 2008)

If your looking for igbts the guy in germany where i bought mine has new stock:
http://stores.shop.ebay.co.uk/reloa...12QQ_sidZ876934862QQ_trksidZp4634Q2ec0Q2em322


----------



## etlaare (Aug 25, 2009)

jackbauer said:


> If your looking for igbts the guy in germany where i bought mine has new stock:
> http://stores.shop.ebay.co.uk/reloa...12QQ_sidZ876934862QQ_trksidZp4634Q2ec0Q2em322


Heheh that's where I bought mine as well. 
But thanks Jack

I discovered there are many aluminium suppoiers in the UK, but they don't seem to ship abroad..
Maybe found a source in The Netherlands though.. I will call them tomorrow.


----------



## etlaare (Aug 25, 2009)

ok, I'll stop being stubborn ...
I spend 2 nights searching the internet to get all the electronics together that I had in mind... so I took the shortcut and ordered an OpenSource controller board and will learn some atmel assembler to add the cruise control in a later stage. Next time I will listen right away Jack  It seems my HC11's are getting outdated anyway

Well, after that I could get my hands dirty again and here's some pictures of the progress:
I hope I am not going to regret this, but I shortened the connector I made a little. Hence now I only need a plate of 15mm to connect the gearbox and the motor.. Measured it thoroughly today with the connector in place.










I also asked the local blacksmith to roll me some steel at the proper radius, so I can weld some nice round hoops together to support the motor and connect them to the original suspension.










back to some more ebay exploring again for a nice plate of 15mm aluminum now


----------



## etlaare (Aug 25, 2009)

More and more components are dropping in from all over the world.

I am happy as a child every time I reveice a package. Each and every one of them feels like a Christmas present to me.

And best news of the day, I found my desperately needed plate of aluminum, to be modified to connect the motor with the gearbox, which will be ready to be picked up tomorrow.


----------



## jackbauer (Jan 12, 2008)

Hey you got a kilovac! Is that the igbt on the heatsink? If so your going to need a bigger one! I used a 300mm square of 12mm thick aluminium. I like the open source controller board. It works well and saves reinventing the wheel. Building an ev is difficult enough


----------



## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

Hey, more progress, that is always good to see.

It's also good to see my vac pump on your desk.

I am getting tempted to go clutchless and I might copy your coupler design.


----------



## etlaare (Aug 25, 2009)

It's so nice to see you all recognize the bits.

And yes the heat sink is too small, it comes from an old robot on my attic and I certainly agree, although they say that mainly the surface counts and not the volume, I will still use a much bigger one, but for testing the controller with low currents I hope the igbt will survive. Unless I find me some more aluminum to make a proper heat sink before that.

I would not consider the coupler to be my design, I copied it mostly from Electric Lemon: http://www.electric-lemon.com/?q=node/213

Almost tempted to give up my skiing vacation so I could keep working on the conversion


----------



## jackbauer (Jan 12, 2008)

Keep the starter from the engine. Makes a great "dummy load" for 12v tests of the controller.


----------



## etlaare (Aug 25, 2009)

oh... another question though.
Do you have, or have you planned for, an earth leak detector ?
And/or is there a cheap way to make such a device yourself or finding a cheaper one as the £200.00 version I found ?


----------



## etlaare (Aug 25, 2009)

jackbauer said:


> Keep the starter from the engine. Makes a great "dummy load" for 12v tests of the controller.


yes I kept that one, and I also liked your setup with the lamp in your thread 

I was looking a little more into safety though and found the intertia switches, but also the earth leak to detect if one of the main power cables touches the chassis. Seems a nice safety in case of an accident, but the only way I know this is implemented is with two coils inbetween the mainstream to drive a core that will switch off when they are not the same forth and back.

Now that would be hard to implement with the currents we are facing here I guess ...


----------



## etlaare (Aug 25, 2009)

So happy I found the aluminum so I could get my hands dirty again (and the workshop as well... yes, yes, yes, I will clean it next week, I promise).


----------



## etlaare (Aug 25, 2009)

ah well.. I had a skiing vacation in between..
but a little milestone today










with this as the result 

http://www.etlaare.demon.nl/firstrun.wmv

no noticeable vibration .. I just hope there's not too much damage doing this without oil for a little while ...
But it was too hard to resist.


----------



## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

Looking good.
It sounds a little rough in the video but that could just be the sound quality. It won't do any harm to run it without oil as it is slow speed, short duration and the gears will still be a little oily anyway.

You progress is good, it woon;t be long before you have it back in the car and turning wheels on 12v.

I still don't have a motor. I was going to go shopping for one but Santa delivered some hefty utility bills so I am £700 down on the EV budget again.


----------



## etlaare (Aug 25, 2009)

Yes, the microphone of the camera was quite close and seems to have amplified the sound a bit, but I do agree it could be smoother. I took it apart again and indeed it seemed that the top spline hub was off center for some reason. I am trying to figure out what caused it , it was not much, less than a tenth of a millimeter and it could be just the springs of the connector, but I will do some very accurate measuring before I put it together for it's final assembly (I did not "locktied" it yet).

In the meanwhile I was toying and tinkering a little with my IGBT and I have already put a pwm signal on the motor from my own micro controller.. (the components for the cougar-controller have not arrived yet (I can be so impatient sometimes)). That seemed much easier as I had expected (I used the controller that had been in one of my old (she RIP's) robots which was already programmed for a smooth startup). I am beginning to like this IGBT version, that I think I got as a bargain, quite a lot, it seems so easy to implement, although I did not do any serious measurements to be honest. Yet, while drawing less than 50 amps atm there seems no saturation temperature issue whatsoever. I used a capacitor from the old forklift controller, but I still need to do my maths there.

There were no sensors on the robot-controller so after startup I could not turn it off in a programmed way, then it seemed when I disconnected it, it left the gate in a set state. Hence the motor started running at full speed (well on 24V) and I had to connect the gate to mass to reset it and turn the motor off. I had not expected that, but I guess there's either some capacitor at the gate as well, or the IGBT maybe just acts as a flip-flop which afterwards seems a quite logical explanation too, since the functions it's designed for (DC/AC motor controller and emergency power supply) only needs two states.

I don't have too much experience with IGBT's .. (yet)  but I like them.


----------



## lhogberg (Oct 30, 2009)

etlaare said:


> ...it seemed when I disconnected it, it left the gate in a set state. Hence the motor started running at full speed (well on 24V) and I had to connect the gate to mass to reset it and turn the motor off. I had not expected that, but I guess there's either some capacitor at the gate as well...


Yes there's some capacitance on the gate and emitter that keep it charged. That's the reason why you usually should put a resistor between gate and emitter, so the gate can never be left on uintentionally. 10k would be fine.

I would recommend that you read some IGBT theory before burning them up (pretty easy even if you know what you are doing, even more easier if you don't =)) , using IGBTs at this power levels is not as easy at it seems.

Good luck!


----------



## jackbauer (Jan 12, 2008)

The gate of an igbt is basically a capacitor. Charge it it turn on. Disconnect the supply it stays on. Discharge it and it turns off. You need a gate driver chip to effect correct control. The driver on the open source controller is rated at 9A drive and works fine with my igbt.


----------



## etlaare (Aug 25, 2009)

ok ok did some more reading about igbt's 
Still think it's a wonderful device.

And finally (the customs kept it for almost a week) the parts for the controller board have arrived. Did some soldering today.
And here's the result ...well ... I guess most of you have seen pictures like these before but still ...










I always intended to use the potentiometer from the forklift, but I am suddenly wondering if there are more elegant ways to transfer the throttle pedal movement to a potentiometer. Are sliding versions with a spring common in EV's ?


----------



## jackbauer (Jan 12, 2008)

Just use the throttle position sensor from the cars old throttle body. If its not a throttle body injection model just pick one up from a junk yard.


----------



## etlaare (Aug 25, 2009)

jackbauer said:


> Just use the throttle position sensor from the cars old throttle body. If its not a throttle body injection model just pick one up from a junk yard.


ahhhh, the twingo indeed just had a carburetor, but I should have thought about that of course nowadays (old fashion mechanic here )

Thanks again Jack, at the end more than 50% of my ev will be based on your contributions


----------



## jackbauer (Jan 12, 2008)

Glad to help. The revolt controller can be programmed to accept many different throttle pots via rtd explorer. For example my bmw throttle body ranges from 1.3k to 4.5k. Depending on the igbt you choose I'd recommend using 8khz switching frequency and use a miller clamp diode / resistor setup on the gate resistor to aid turnoff and reduce switching losses.


----------



## etlaare (Aug 25, 2009)

I was actually looking at the TD350 IGBT Driver IC for protection, optimization and to overcome the Miller effect. The RTD explorer was already installed on my laptop  I calculated this igbt could handle higher frequencies, but to avoid the skin effect I will keep it lower. Mainly again because you told me before that the noise would hardly be hearable *smiles*


----------



## etlaare (Aug 25, 2009)

oohhhh

I can't resist sharing the little milestones with you all 

The controller-board is working nicely now, just had some silly problems with the usb-RD232 converter. When I first installed it, it connected to COM4.
When I had the board connected a while later and configured the RTD-explorer to the same port again it never got a connection. Afterwards it turned out that if my cellphone was in the neighborhood of my laptop it connected that through bluetooth and simulated COM4 for that as well (even on 3 additional ports) degrading the usb-rs232 converter to COM8. aarrghhhh..

I finally got it all hooked up now, adapted the raw-throttle to a slider pot (I am running into an issue here with scrapyards, they have all their stock in databases now and when I don't give them a brand name of a car that has the parts I need like a throttle potentiometer for instance, they can't find me any part I am looking for (the modern era I guess )). 
Anyway, I did some testing with the IGBT and some of the diode's and capacitors which I finally recovered from the attic. No proper gate driver yet, and well.. I got some spikes already even without a heavy load, but nevertheless, I had to share it so ... 

http://www.etlaare.demon.nl/throttle.wmv 

Not enough light, but there is my slider-potentiometer and a running motor ...and my arm...

Without load probably using amps is not the best setup but I still had a big smile on my face and was demonstrating it proudly to my family.

I did not like the connectors too much, the one on the hall sensor as well as the one used for the rs-232 caused some minor problems already so I soldered them to the board and the sensor. I think I will consider integrating the usb-rs-232 in the housing of the controller too so I can use an usb-connector to hook up the laptop (or shall I add a bluetooth transmitter to avoid any connector whatsoever  ?).

That reminds me I am slowly running out of budget by the way... but having an awful lot of fun nevertheless.

And indeed Jack, I now seriously need to look for a proper way to cool the IGBT, it got a little warm already even with hardly any load, ah well 50Amps is already quite a bit of course.


----------



## jackbauer (Jan 12, 2008)

Good video. In terms of the scrapyards tell em you want a throttle body for a bmw 316 93 to 98. Easiest option as we know it works and at that age should be cheap. Cooling the igbts is easy enough i used a 300mm plate of 12mm thick aluminium and a pc case fan. Do you have dc bus caps? Are you running at 8khz? Remember an igbt has a reasonably high vce sat of about 2v so at 50 amps your disipating 100w. Also its worthwile incorporating the miller clamp with an extra fast recovery diode and resistor to reduce switching losses. Don't forget to have the thermistor connected to the heatsink for thermal monitoring and cutback.


----------



## etlaare (Aug 25, 2009)

Thanks Jack, I'll have a go with the BMW specs. The little Twingo will blush from pride at the end as it will also host a vaccuumpump of a Saab 9000 Turbo already. Which made me wonder is if the gold plated cooler of a MacLaren could make a nice way to reduce the temperatures of the controller.

And yes I found some nice 400V 4700uF Elco's that came from some old mainframe computer power supply. In the same box where some helium cooled core's (no idea why I ever brought these home ..) but it does not seem to make much sense to use them . I go for the regular pc power supply fans I think. 
I am still looking for a proper igbt gate driver to reduce the miller effect. It is all just bolted together a little snappy at the moment, but from here I will focus on a nice setup to construct it in a decent and robust way and then will figure out the best position for the temperature resistor.

ah, almost forgot the switching frequency question. Today it was still 16KHz, but I indeed intend to go for 8KHz by your recommendation.


----------



## etlaare (Aug 25, 2009)

* sigh *

waiting for parts atm... I will need a programmer to upgrade the firmware of the atmega168, ordered parts for the nice and small one Jack indicated here.

Still waiting for my power diodes, heatsink and some more capacitors to arrive ...

Ordered a tool to remove the ..ok.. I only know this in dutch so here's a wild guess... tie rod ball ... ?

ah well, at least I could take a picture of some of the parts that has to be put together soon for the final controller version.










Getting a little impatient to lower the motor into the car now the weather is improving. Would be so nice to drive silently in spring already...


----------



## jackbauer (Jan 12, 2008)

Looking well. You will however need a *much* bigger heatsink. Dont forget to have you dc bus caps as close to the power rails as possible to minimise inductance and keep the igbt gate terminals as short as possbile also. 

Your building the little ponyprog circuit?


----------



## etlaare (Aug 25, 2009)

Thanks Jack and yes, I have a huge heatsink on order as well  still waiting for it to arrive though.
When I am putting it together the caps (a ripple version will be added too) will be bolted as close as possible to the busses, but I really have to wait for the diodes to come in before I can do the final placements of all components. They will need to be arranged on the heatsink as well. The controller board will turn 90 degrees and be at the side of the igbt, so the gate connections should just be a centimeter or so.

And yes I ordered some missing components for the little interface You showed at ecomodder to the ponyprog program. The atmega168 I received still only had firmware version 1.7 installed and it turned out that in combination with a 168 that version could not bootloaded yet with the rtd explorer. In time I need my own programmer anyway, but for now it is just to get the latest 8KHz version of the program installed asap.
I hope to be ready next week after some final measurements to lower the motor inside the car, but maybe I am a little too optimistic there now.


----------



## etlaare (Aug 25, 2009)

bbrrr I am way too impatient to wait so long for parts coming in.
But finally the diodes arrived yesterday. Together with some fuses and a fuse holder, underneath is the little programmer I built during the weekend, with which I could finally test the controller at 8KHz PWM switching. I loaded firmware version 11b  Now maybe one motor differs from the other, but with mine the brushes really make an awful lot of noise at 8KHz. It is a very annoying and loud beep I'm afraid which I am pretty sure the firewall will not reduce totally inside the car...
That will require some serious second thoughts ... 

Anyway. I welded and painted the hoops to connect to the original engine supports. And should be ready soon to lower the drive unit in the car. The weather should improve a little for that as I should at least leave the garage door open to have the car with the hood underneath the hoist.


----------



## jackbauer (Jan 12, 2008)

Like the programmer! and usb powered! very neat. Were you running the motor at 12v traction power for the 8khz test? I had the same issue with lots of "squeal" from the comm end but was much reduced at 24v and my recent tests at 48v I have to actually try to hear it.


----------



## etlaare (Aug 25, 2009)

jackbauer said:


> Like the programmer! and usb powered! very neat. Were you running the motor at 12v traction power for the 8khz test? I had the same issue with lots of "squeal" from the comm end but was much reduced at 24v and my recent tests at 48v I have to actually try to hear it.


ohh good one, it ran on 24V but I will test it on 48V to see if that makes a difference with this motor (crossing my fingers).


----------



## etlaare (Aug 25, 2009)

Made an aluminum shoebox around the controller today.
Almost finished... At the back there will be 2 pc-fans to force some extra airflow. Crossing my fingers for a day with nice weather still, although I started to clean up the workshop as well in case I get too impatient...



















The heat sink is 400x200x20 millimeters now Jack 
And thank you for that hint about trying it at a higher voltage. It certainly reduced the brushes to vibrate. I think I will keep it at 8KHz for now. Ik had some problems with the connector I made. I think I did not center it properly when assembling it last time which caused one plate to bend a little. I don't think I will try to bend it back but am looking for a replacement frictionplate now. But then it turns out to be harder to find as I had expected.


----------



## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

Putting it all in a box make it look even smaller then it did before.

I'm surprised there is, physically, so little to it. Maybe I should get a kit and have a go at building one myself.

Well done.


----------



## jackbauer (Jan 12, 2008)

That looks very nice indeed. Way better than mine! Only concern I would have would be with the connection of your dc bus caps. they really need to be sitting on the + and - battery connections. Any inductance between the busbars and the caps will lead to problems at higher currents. You'd also want a few polyprop caps across the bus for high frequency noise and an mkp snubber of about 1uf across the igbt c and e terminals.


----------



## etlaare (Aug 25, 2009)

jackbauer said:


> That looks very nice indeed. Way better than mine! Only concern I would have would be with the connection of your dc bus caps. they really need to be sitting on the + and - battery connections. Any inductance between the busbars and the caps will lead to problems at higher currents. You'd also want a few polyprop caps across the bus for high frequency noise and an mkp snubber of about 1uf across the igbt c and e terminals.


Thanks Jack, 
there will be a routered copper layer on top with ripple caps and I ordered this snubber: http://nl.farnell.com/kemet/c4bspbx4100zajj/capacitor-snubber-1200v-1uf/dp/1716038

But yes, I could not think of a way to get these DC caps closer. Do you think it might help if I shield the connections to reduce the inductance ?


----------



## zwmaster (Nov 23, 2009)

etlaare said:


> Thanks Jack,
> there will be a routered copper layer on top with ripple caps and I ordered this snubber: http://nl.farnell.com/kemet/c4bspbx4100zajj/capacitor-snubber-1200v-1uf/dp/1716038
> 
> But yes, I could not think of a way to get these DC caps closer. Do you think it might help if I shield the connections to reduce the inductance ?


You could mount caps horizontally using 90deg. bend on bus bar. For bench testing I use 90deg. Angle peaces to keep connection as short as possible. Additionally the top of IGBT's is left free for snubbers and still have low profile of whole setup.
I found some cheap snubbers at RS (lower prices then Farnell)
http://at.rs-online.com/web/search/searchBrowseAction.html?method=getProduct&R=4974365
. On the other hand, DC-Link caps (film not ELCO's) are still cheaper at farnell. Any other sources for caps?


----------



## jackbauer (Jan 12, 2008)

Have a look at this setup:
http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showpost.php?p=147265&postcount=75

and this video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TmhHjoEMbiE


----------



## etlaare (Aug 25, 2009)

jackbauer said:


> Have a look at this setup:
> http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showpost.php?p=147265&postcount=75
> 
> and this video:
> ...


* smiles * I had already studied those Jack, but thanks again.

@zwmaster, thank you too, and yes cheaper, good find .. too bad they don't ship to The Netherlands :-/... 

My order at farnel was cancelled, looking for another supplier now.


----------



## Matthijs (Jun 19, 2009)

etlaare said:


> * smiles * I had already studied those Jack, but thanks again.
> 
> @zwmaster, thank you too, and yes cheaper, good find .. too bad they don't ship to The Netherlands :-/...
> 
> My order at farnel was cancelled, looking for another supplier now.


Weet je zeker dat ze niet naar Nederland versturen?/ Are you sure they do not ship to the Netherlands? They have a Dutch website as well. 

http://nl.rs-online.com/web/


----------



## etlaare (Aug 25, 2009)

I am a little behind with reporting the progress. I finally found a dutch supplier for a snubber and also added the copper layer with the caps on the controller. 

But more important... we had a day with nice weather. I had done some preparations the evening before like removing the hood and placing the car on .. blocks(?). But at the end it all went quite smoothly, and the best news, it fits. I must admit that despite the measuring I was still a little nervous about the width. 

I guess most of you know all about it, but it is a wonderful feeling to see it hanging there. I made a small design mistake with the support ring, it got in the way of the right axle, but it will be easy to adapt. 
I am so thrilled....


prepare









halfway









done









I'll get a bit sharper picture soon....


----------



## Jan (Oct 5, 2009)

Great job, etlaare.


----------



## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

That is a great progress milestone. You will be able to make the wheels turn and tha car move now.


----------



## jackbauer (Jan 12, 2008)

Great work! I don't know if its just me but an electric motor and a car gearbox just look right. 

Any pics of the controller?


----------



## etlaare (Aug 25, 2009)

Woodsmith said:


> That is a great progress milestone. You will be able to make the wheels turn and tha car move now.


yes it surely felt as a milestone, I had a smile on my face the whole evening.



jackbauer said:


> Great work! I don't know if its just me but an electric motor and a car gearbox just look right.
> 
> Any pics of the controller?


only one with the snubber added, there is a copper plate on top of the bars now as well though










The snubber really made a big difference, both with the spikes and the sound. That was another golden tip Jack ....

my neighbor said almost the same thing about the electric motor and a gearbox today. It looks way better as those explosion controllers to me as well.


----------



## etlaare (Aug 25, 2009)

Almost specially for you Woodsmith 
Well my neighbor was eager to motivate me to run a little test as well, he even offered to make a small video while standing in the rain for it...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zwmM_Jg-EVI

That was on 12V only, I still have to mount the battery pack, but I never thought I would have so much fun with every small step. 

It is such a nice feeling to make an electric car...

(how can I imbedd a youtube video in a post ?? That wrap you tube button somehow does not seem to do much or am I using it the wrong way ?)


----------



## Vitkur (Oct 10, 2008)

Here you go.




Twingo Electrique!


----------



## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

etlaare said:


> Almost specially for you Woodsmith
> Well my neighbor was eager to motivate me to run a little test as well, he even offered to make a small video while standing in the rain for it...


Excellent, thank you.
It always looks so fast when the wheels are off the ground.

I am hoping, if I work late I might get the wheels spinning on the tractor tonight. It may be after midnight though.


----------



## etlaare (Aug 25, 2009)

Woodsmith said:


> I am hoping, if I work late I might get the wheels spinning on the tractor tonight. It may be after midnight though.


got them working woodsmith ??

I am working on welding a battery frame. The Twingo had a high gasoline tank, so high that 4 battery's fit under the back seat without sticking out underneath...


----------



## Matthijs (Jun 19, 2009)

I came across this (small) picture from the electric MES-DEA Twingo:










Pretty cool display.


----------



## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

etlaare said:


> got them working woodsmith ??
> 
> I am working on welding a battery frame. The Twingo had a high gasoline tank, so high that 4 battery's fit under the back seat without sticking out underneath...


That's a neat installation there, etlaare. Are the mounts removeable or are the batteries on trays that bolt up to the frames?

I go the wheels spinning on the tractor and put up video for you.


----------



## etlaare (Aug 25, 2009)

Woodsmith said:


> That's a neat installation there, etlaare. Are the mounts removeable or are the batteries on trays that bolt up to the frames?
> 
> I go the wheels spinning on the tractor and put up video for you.


 awesomeWoodsmith 

The frame is bolted to where the original gasoline tank was, but the batteries will be on a tray as well that can be lifted into position. I will have the main fuse and the contactor together with the pre-charger there as well to reduce any voltage risks to only a small area in case of an accident.

I am wiring the power cables at the moment.


the tractor project looks great


----------



## etlaare (Aug 25, 2009)

Eeeeeeppss.... those cables are expensive ...
Now I am definitely over budget.
But, getting closer and closer to the first test drive...










The picture distorts a little so no, it is not sticking out underneath the bottom plate. 
Those wing nuts are, but that is only just handy for measuring and the draft fitting. 
It all will be removed for painting and after that will be back with normal bolts.


----------



## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

etlaare said:


> Eeeeeeppss.... those cables are expensive ...
> Now I am definitely over budget.


I was dreading the cables part, makes good batteries look affordable!
I managed to find a whole bundle of 70mm and 120mm cable at the scrap metal yard. Some of it wasn't even used.



etlaare said:


> Those wing nuts are, but that is only just handy for measuring and the draft fitting.
> It all will be removed for painting and after that will be back with normal bolts.


I would worry about speed humps with any nut or bolt head sticking out like that. Catching a hump could rack the battery frames.
Is it possible to have the bolts upwards so that they can be as short and smooth as possible?
I was thinking of coach bolts or button head screws.


----------



## etlaare (Aug 25, 2009)

* smiles * 
I had seen your posts about the cables you had found a while ago, that was a very good find I think. I needed 3 meter of both colors to go from the back to the front though ...

and please don't worry about the bolts sticking out, I don't know how that pictures makes it look it is way below the bottom plate, but it isn't. I will replace the wing nuts with the final assembly and then they are higher as the bottom plate and the axle. So no speed hump will be able to catch them  I also think that would not allow it to make it street legal if it was sticking out, I am still working towards registering it officially. There is even space to cover it all totally making the floor all flat which would be a huge aerodynamic benefit so I've been told.


----------



## etlaare (Aug 25, 2009)

I had a day off from work to place the batteries today.
That was not as easy as it sounds as I had to lift them all wired and connected, but with the help of my wife, some sweat and a few dirty words in between to motivate us ... they are in place now.











my picture of the day











The idea is to make a portable bms as for short trips I don't need it. I ordered a bunch of Anderson connectors to make it easy to connect all the separate charging and monitoring wires. Also 2 big ones to make an emergency (dis)connector. 











My neighbor told me he bought a new video camera today to film the first test drive... coming up soon now I hope.


----------



## etlaare (Aug 25, 2009)

I decided not to go for the emergency switch of the forklift but to build one as on the forkenswift and ordered some Anderson connectors.. I like them a lot already... soooo close to my first testdrive now ...

The small black and white ones are meant for the portable bms.


----------



## Tyn245GL (Oct 12, 2009)

Very exciting, almost ready for your first drive!
Where (in NL I suppose) did you order your Anderson connectors? I am ready to order them too. I am based in NL as well.


----------



## etlaare (Aug 25, 2009)

Tyn245GL said:


> Very exciting, almost ready for your first drive!
> Where (in NL I suppose) did you order your Anderson connectors? I am ready to order them too. I am based in NL as well.


It was cheaper to order them here, and they deliver mighty quick too.
http://www.powerwerx.com/anderson-powerpoles/


----------



## Tyn245GL (Oct 12, 2009)

etlaare, that seems to be a good supplier. Great website.

Question: the SB175 connector has a 175 Amp rating. Does that mean 175 max.? Or 175 continuous with higher peak currents allowed? It supports 50mm2 (AWG 1) wire so I suppose it can carry more Amps for short periods.
But I can not find any specs on the web about the peak current and peak durations that are supported by the SB175, so I need to be sure.

My 340 VDC system will be 115 Amp nominal, with max. peaks up to 250 Amps battery current.

So my question in short is: can I use the SB175 or must I select the SB350 (which requires 53.5mm2 (AWG 1/0) or larger cable...) ?


----------



## etlaare (Aug 25, 2009)

Tyn245GL said:


> etlaare, that seems to be a good supplier. Great website.
> 
> Question: the SB175 connector has a 175 Amp rating. Does that mean 175 max.? Or 175 continuous with higher peak currents allowed? It supports 50mm2 (AWG 1) wire so I suppose it can carry more Amps for short periods.
> But I can not find any specs on the web about the peak current and peak durations that are supported by the SB175, so I need to be sure.
> ...


oops, missed this post, sorry for the late reply.
You'll find the specs at their website
http://www.andersonpower.com/


----------



## etlaare (Aug 25, 2009)

I'll have some more time today I hope for some progress, as the last couple of days I was busy with birthdays and Easter 

But steady as it goes here's some frames I made for supporting the main wires on their way to the front.










Laying flat on my stomach to take such pictures for all of you, and enjoying every second of it


----------



## DC Braveheart (Oct 12, 2008)

etlaare said:


> I'll have some more time today I hope for some progress, as the last couple of days I was busy with birthdays and Easter
> 
> But steady as it goes here's some frames I made for supporting the main wires on their way to the front.
> 
> ...


I'd be a little concerned about the edges of that angle iron rubbing on the wiring insulation where the wires enter/leave the supports - maybe add a little additional padding there? Also, I've read that you should really run both + and - wires together so that any stray RF transmissions induced by the current get canceled out.


----------



## etlaare (Aug 25, 2009)

I had planned some padding indeed, but when placing the wires they did not seem to strain against the metal at all. But I promise to keep inspecting it during the first testdrives.

Now about the induction issue, I don't think this is the proper place to restart that topic, but I have seen many discussions about it with pro's and con's. Also that if you want to benefit from the cancellation the wires should be twisted, more or less but then the frequencies and amount of twists become rather critical. Later I found a post of somebody that had been doing measurements with high DC currents who concluded that separating them would not be the best but certainly not the worst compared to a wrongly twisted or non twisted pair, so I went for that option.

Anyway... 










I added the emergency connector which is operated by the clutch pedal. Pre-charge circuit, maincontactor and the main fuse are installed. I even managed to separate the speed cable and the back driving light switch from the gearbox from all the bundles of wires and cables that were needed for the old motor management. 

As a matter of fact I was ready to go for the first test-drive (without braking assist yet ..) when some (sort of) drama occurred. 

The bearing of the motor turned out to get quite warm. Inspecting it showed that the connector with the old clutch-plate had bended causing the connector to wobble. It seems that needs some re-design. So back to the drawing board where I should now consider a fixed coupling as I probably don't have the space for a claw and spider alternative... 

A little disappointed, but the spring is kicking in with nice weather and after a good night of sleep I will start looking for a better solution here in the forums.


----------



## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

etlaare said:


> I added the emergency connector which is operated by the clutch pedal.


I like it.

I hope the coupler redesign works out.


----------



## etlaare (Aug 25, 2009)

ohhhh

Today was such a beautiful day...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2RlzxXaaTKE

The very first test drive.

It left me speechless.. it's such a wonderful feeling to drive an electric car


----------



## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

etlaare said:


> ohhhh
> 
> Today was such a beautiful day...
> 
> ...


Fantastic!

That looked so good and so smooth running. Well done. It was a really quick conversion too, and neatly done.

I applaude you.


----------



## Matthijs (Jun 19, 2009)

Great video! I drove axacly the same car same color as well as a petrol version. Very cool to see an electric version. And not a moment to soon with $8 a gallon of gas now at the pump.


----------



## etlaare (Aug 25, 2009)

Woodsmith said:


> Fantastic!
> 
> That looked so good and so smooth running. Well done. It was a really quick conversion too, and neatly done.
> 
> I applaude you.


It's not yet done totally Woodsmith, Your vacuum pump still has to be added and a heater for defrosting the windscreen.

But let me thank you as well, you have been such a very motivating and stimulating factor in my EV conversion.


----------



## etlaare (Aug 25, 2009)

Wooot... 

running on 72 volts now, it's such a smooth car to drive 

I enjoy it every day.

I should focus on the vacuum brake system a little more now so I can have it tested to become street legal.

But it is so much fun and tempting to go for a ride everyday instead of tinkering with the little circuit.


----------



## etlaare (Aug 25, 2009)

I am a little behind showing pictures I think.
Two batteries in front all connected to and monitored from the back.










When the vacuum pump is in place I will bundle the wires at the back as well. I also still have to add the pc housing fans to the controller. 
But still, it drives so smoothly already even without 

My wife made a little test-drive as well today. so I hope she will also use it regularly when it is all finished.

And I cleaned the car this evening too 










We did a functional test, driving to the golfcourse and back on a single charge.
All packed. At the end the max speed dropped till 50 km/h (30 Mph), but that's more as the maximum speed in our street anyway.

So it passed the range deliverable test.
It also passed the top speed deliverable test, as it goes way beyond the planned 60km/h (37 Mph).
I stopped accelerating at 70 km/h (44 Mph) since it was way above the max speed where I was driving, but it was clear there was even more in the bag.

It's such a wonderful feeling and the perfect shopping car for us.


----------



## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

That is really great!

It sounds like you have done a really good, and sucessful, job of the conversion.
Only the finishing touches left then.

Well done.


----------



## etlaare (Aug 25, 2009)

Woodsmith said:


> That is really great!
> 
> It sounds like you have done a really good, and sucessful, job of the conversion.
> Only the finishing touches left then.
> ...


Thank You Woodsmith

There is still a reasonable amount of work left, but thank you again. You're a big motivator to keep things going. And it is still wonderful to follow your conversion and tractors as well.

Today I floored the throttle in 3rd gear. I am not sure if it will be healthy to do that every day, over 270 amps but wow.. it felt as if the backrest of the seat would suffer as well if I give it that little kick in the back too often, the torque at low rpm's is an amazing feeling. In 5th gear I gained a 78 km/h (48 Mph) on a flat road (we have so many of them in The Netherlands) with no wind (which is rare)... 

But okay.. I'll stop racing from now on and behave as it was just made as a short distance shopping car 

I made a little atmega board myself for the break assist. I discussed this with some car mechanics who said that measuring the under pressure would be a waist claiming that, if I just turn the vaccumpump on at startup and then every time I hit the breaks and keep it running for about 20 seconds when I release it, that would do the job. I think my first version will be a test with that principle.

(I need to find me a cheap manometer for measurements)


----------



## jackbauer (Jan 12, 2008)

etlaare said:


> I made a little atmega board myself for the break assist. I discussed this with some car mechanics who said that measuring the under pressure would be a waist claiming that, if I just turn the vaccumpump on at startup and then every time I hit the breaks and keep it running for about 20 seconds when I release it, that would do the job. I think my first version will be a test with that principle.
> 
> (I need to find me a cheap manometer for measurements)


Your only problem with that strategy will be that if there is any loss of vacuum then when you actually hit the brake pedal the pump will be playing catchup. If your stuck for a vacuum switch I have a spare. I seem to be supplying them to various forum members


----------



## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

I got a switch from jack too.
For a manometer, you could just get a ]car vacuum gauge from Ebay and use it to make sure you have a vacuum while you are driving.

The way things are going with my conversion I will need to find a proper electric vacuum pump. Know where I can find one?

I am going to get one of these, Rover 200/400 pump, and add a motor to it.


----------



## jackbauer (Jan 12, 2008)

Woody the US ebay is your best bet. I got mine for about $80 all in secondhand. The way ebay are now you have to go to the US site to find such items. They wont show up on a UK search pm me if your having trouble.


----------



## Jimdear2 (Oct 12, 2008)

Woodsmith said:


> I am going to get one of these, Rover 200/400 pump, and add a motor to it.


Woody, Etlaare, Jack

Got a suggestion/weird idea for a simple mechanical vacuum pump drive. 

Use the Rover pump but drive it from the extension drive axle shaft if the vehicle is so equipped. Or you could probably even drive it by placing a pully between the transaxle and the tripot or actually on the tripot. It sounds stupid at first, but think about it.

Your only brake application that would be difficult would be the first one after the vehicle has sat long enough for the vacuum to leak down. Even my old Chevy will hold vacuum for a couple of days. Just put in a big reservoir.

I remember check driving a Rolls, after our shop had serviced it, that powered the brakes from the drive shaft, I don't remember how it was done, but as long as you were aware that you had no power brakes in reverse and just after starting up there was no problem.

I have some experience with that type pump on VW diesels and it will pull a usable vacuum very fast. Since the pump runs constantly you will use a few extra watts while driving, but you gain a bit while coasting.

Just an interesting (to me) idea.

Jim


----------



## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

Jimdear2 said:


> Woody, Etlaare, Jack
> 
> Got a suggestion/weird idea for a simple mechanical vacuum pump drive.
> 
> ...


That is how I intended to drive the AC compressor, using the tailshaft. I figured that I would have vacuum by the end of my drive.
I now don't have a tail shaft with this big 12" motor.
I am not sure that using the driveshaft would give enough turn of the pump to get a vacuum quickly though.

If I was to use a mechanical drive I would stick to the AC compressor as it has the clutch and seems to pull a vacuum quickly. The little Rover pump would be simple to connect direct to a small 12v motor and be little different to a conventional EV Shop expensive jobby.
Also it is new and cheap!


----------



## etlaare (Aug 25, 2009)

awww... and guess what I just made this evening before I was reading your posts ....

It seems to be the vacuum season suddenly 










I used the vacuum sensor that was already in the car and made a little circuit-board with an ATMega8 on 4Mhz using an A/D port and an output port to measure the voltage of the sensor and switch on and off the relay based on low and high pressure values set in a little assembler program.

It works to drive the wonderful pump I got from Woodsmith that originated from a Saab turbo ..


Not sure if this is the right place, but here's the little program I wrote:
----------------------------------------------------------
.include "m8def.inc" ;AVR Studio I/O lib (path set in menu/project/assembler options)
;
; Break assist control with ATMega8 at 4Mhz
;
; This little asm programm will read a voltage from a 
; pressure sensor on A/D port 3 and turn on a vacuum pump
; when the value gets too high and turn it off when it 
; gets low enough on port B 3 (yeah, I like #3 ...)
; set your own values at compare high and compare low 128/48
; worked fine for me, but the values will depend on the used sensor
; 
.org 0x0000 ; write at 0000
rjmp main ; reset to main

main:

ldi r16, low(RAMEND) ; set up the stack
out SPL, r16
ldi r16, high(RAMEND)
out SPH, r16

ldi r16, 0xFF ; all bits 1 to set as output
out DDRB, r16 ; in Data Direction Register B

cbi PortB, 3 ; pump off (not realy neccesary but just in case...)

ADC_Init: ; initialize the A/D port

ldi r16,3 ; Select ADC3
out ADMUX, r16 ; Enable ADC, Single Mode conversion
ldi r16, 0b10000101 ; ADC Interrupt disable, Prescaler division factor = 32
out ADCSR,r16 ; this gives an ADC clock frequency of 4e6/32=125kHz
sbi ADCSR,ADSC ; Start conversion

Wait:

sbis ADCSR,ADIF ; Wait until the conversion is completed
rjmp Wait

in r16,ADCL ; Place ADCH in r16:r17
in r17,ADCH
lsr r17 ;shift right twice to move 8 MSB's in r16
ror r16
lsr r17
ror r16

push r16 ; safe to stack
subi r16, 128 ; compare high pressure
brlo upper_limit
sbi PortB, 3 ; preasure is too high turn pump on
pop r16 ; clear stack
rjmp ADC_Init ; start new A/D conversion read

upper_limit:

pop r16 ; retreive value
subi r16, 48 ; compare low pressure
brlo lower_limit
rjmp ADC_Init ; do nothing (leave pump on) start new adc read

lower_limit:
cbi PortB, 3 ; pressure is low enough turn pump off

rjmp ADC_Init ; start new adc read
---------------------------------------------------------

well... the formatting messed up...
Let me know if anybody is interested and I will place it on my website with a link here as a .asm file.

I made a straight forward circuit for the atmega8, but if there is an interest I can make a schematic drawing and upload that as well, just let me know.


----------



## etlaare (Aug 25, 2009)

And here it is installed. I mounted it on a cut part of a rubber tile.
When driving you don't hear it at all.










The sensor is shown partly at the top of the picture.

Here's also another testdrive with the break assist. if You turn up the volume at the end of the movie you'll hear it pumping , but during the drive the sound of the tires makes it impossible to hear it (at least to me..). 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wzsl4L7SrnU&feature=youtube_gdata

somehow my youtube imbedding still doesn't work...

The servo also seems to hold plenty of vacuum as I have to hit the brake 10 times when the ignition is turned off before I feel the resistance increasing. When I keep the ignition on the capacity of the pump seems plenty enough never to loose any assistance.

And here's showing off a little about what I did to the outside of our nice little green Twingo 










It's really so nice to drive.


----------



## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

Good video.

I am glad that you don't have a noise problem with the pump. I really did have an issue with it, maybe it is a personal thing, so I am glad you have it and can use it.

When I tried it on the MR2 I only got 2 pumps on the pedal without a reserviour. That determined for me needing to fit one.


----------



## etlaare (Aug 25, 2009)

Woodsmith said:


> Good video.
> 
> I am glad that you don't have a noise problem with the pump. I really did have an issue with it, maybe it is a personal thing, so I am glad you have it and can use it.


I think our deal was a win-win Woodsmith 

I also shot a picture of all equipment under the hood so far.
I think I can start to make nice bundles of all the wires soon and then will be ready for the big test .. I hope .. to get her street legal.


----------



## justinjay (Apr 9, 2010)

intresting ....Thanks


----------



## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

etlaare said:


> ...will be ready for the big test .. I hope .. to get her street legal.


So how have you been driving on the road?
I hope you don't get caught driving illegally especially with the broadcast video.

It would be just the thing our council snoopers would be looking out for.


----------



## etlaare (Aug 25, 2009)

Woodsmith said:


> So how have you been driving on the road?
> I hope you don't get caught driving illegally especially with the broadcast video.
> 
> It would be just the thing our council snoopers would be looking out for.


Well, the road tax is payed for, and the car is insured, only still as a gasoline car, I can only hope they understand some parts need a small road test before I can have it's registration changed into an electric version. When it is officially converted to electric and the registration adapted I will be paying no road tax at all anyway in my country, so they should be happy I did not do that yet 

But I will request an official test soon, it is only minor adjustments now before she is all ready to go for it.


----------



## zwmaster (Nov 23, 2009)

etlaare said:


> .
> .
> .
> But I will request an official test soon, it is only minor adjustments now before she is all ready to go for it.


Just take a temporary registration. It's common in most EU countries. I use it and it is common or repair test drives and drives after car is purchased.
It's around 25€ for 3-7 days. With insurance paid could be even less.

Just to be on the safe side.
Keep on driving.


----------



## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

etlaare said:


> Well, the road tax is payed for, and the car is insured, only still as a gasoline car, I can only hope they understand some parts need a small road test before I can have it's registration changed into an electric version. When it is officially converted to electric and the registration adapted I will be paying no road tax at all anyway in my country, so they should be happy I did not do that yet
> 
> But I will request an official test soon, it is only minor adjustments now before she is all ready to go for it.


Ahhh, I see, the car as a whole is legal but the paperwork just doesn't quite match the new drive train.

I used to do that a fair bit. I'd spend a year slowly modifying a road legal vehicle and then update the paperwork all at once when the insurance was due for renewal. It was fine as long as I didn't have an accident.

I will be doing sort of likewise with my MR2. I will insure, test and licence it as if it still had the ICE and then immediately register a change of engine and get a licence refund. It will cost me a month licence cover but will only mean talking to one department at a time. Trying to talk to two departments together at the same time could result in a vehicle that can never be legal.


----------



## etlaare (Aug 25, 2009)

yes, the authorities can get you in a mean deadlock in no time 

But you still triggered me and I made an appointment to have it tested for a license change. It's due in 2 weeks. It should be enough time to do the minor adjustments that are still needed.

I already had a tire fixed that had a nail in it for instance today.

But all in all it still got me a little nervous now, yet in a nice itching way


----------



## etlaare (Aug 25, 2009)

I took the car to a garage and asked for an informal test where they looked at the same items as they would do at the yearly periodical technical test that is required in my country for any car older as 3 years. General things like brakes, shock absorbers and such were tested and inspected on some huge rollers. They even adjusted the headlights to the new weight distribution. All seemed well apart from a little hole they found which was easy to repair and they also did some recommendations about the bundling of the wires and improving the protection of the batteries and cables (which I still had in the planning already). They liked so much me showing the converted car that they didn't even charge me for it all. 

I bought a box with 15 meter of this for safe bundling 
It should be enough I think.










So with a little more effort I hope to be in good shape for the real official test .. but please everybody keep your fingers crossed at the end of next week.


----------



## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

You should be able to get screw on glands/bushings to terminate that flexi conduit for box entry.

I will do something similar with my tractor using what I have in stock.


----------



## etlaare (Aug 25, 2009)

Woodsmith said:


> You should be able to get screw on glands/bushings to terminate that flexi conduit for box entry.
> 
> I will do something similar with my tractor using what I have in stock.


sounds as a nice plan


----------



## etlaare (Aug 25, 2009)

I used some rubber bushings Woodsmith.. sorry.. 
Almost done apart from a last view wires upper right to connect to the panel volt meter (I blew one up and ordered a new one in china)










What do you think about the warning stickers ? 
72 volts can be dangerous still I think and it might keep too curious people away from touching everything maybe as well (I will take her to a "twingoday" here in the Netherlands in 2 weeks for exhibition).

The battery box is protected now with a plate as well, and the whole bottom has a new protection layer of tectyl.











It is soo tempting to take her out for a drive... but I guess it would be wise to be a little more patient. only 10 more days before the test .. brrrrr....


----------



## Jan (Oct 5, 2009)

etlaare said:


> only 10 more days before the test .. brrrrr....


Hi etlaare,

It looks very cool. Are you going to Waddinxveen for the test?


----------



## etlaare (Aug 25, 2009)

Jan said:


> Hi etlaare,
> 
> It looks very cool. Are you going to Waddinxveen for the test?


wow that's impressive, yes Waddinxveen, how did you figure that out  ?


----------



## Jan (Oct 5, 2009)

etlaare said:


> wow that's impressive, yes Waddinxveen, how did you figure that out  ?


Easy. I know where you live. Well, aproximatly.
You're not the first, they have experience:

http://www.leenapk.nl/article.php?article_id=60


----------



## etlaare (Aug 25, 2009)

Jan said:


> Easy. I know where you live. Well, aproximatly.
> You're not the first, they have experience:


 so I will be compared with a 2CV


----------



## etlaare (Aug 25, 2009)

Today was the big day.. 
The Twingo was set on transport for it's official test to become street legal.










I was sooo nervous.. but ..
She passed the test 

In a couple of days I will receive the official documents and then she will be all set to drive the roads legally as a full electric car.

The turtle smile from the first test drive was wonderful, but I think the smiling from making it official exceeds it. I can't stop smiling.

I am the owner of an official full electric car, right now I feel the happiest person on earth I think. 

I would like to thank everybody who helped here for their contribution to achieve all this. Without this forum and many of you it would not have been possible.

Thank You all

Ed (ECO (Electric Car Owner)).


----------



## jackbauer (Jan 12, 2008)

Well done! Just starting down that road myself. Pun intended


----------



## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

That is great news, well done.


----------



## etlaare (Aug 25, 2009)

Thanks Jack and Woodsmith.
You two were my biggest motivators, helpers and contributors.

If either of you ever are in the neighborhood of Amsterdam, you are hereby invited for an electric ride


----------



## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

You're welcome, etlaare, I may just take you up on that.

I'm am really happy for you that you are legal and on the road.


Mine is annoying me and I have thrown my hands up and exclaimed many expletives.
The motor coupler has been made wrong and as I have fitted it and tapped threads in the shaft it is going to be a real pita to re make.


----------



## Huub3 (Aug 16, 2009)

ETLaare,

that is great news, hoping that we will have some more EV's on the dutch roads soon!

Huub


----------



## Jan (Oct 5, 2009)

Congrats etlaare! 

I'll watch out for that twingo.


----------



## etlaare (Aug 25, 2009)

* smiles brightly * 

thank you all


----------



## Jan (Oct 5, 2009)

etlaare said:


> * smiles brightly *
> 
> thank you all


It's official now.


----------



## etlaare (Aug 25, 2009)

And this was in the mail today


----------



## etlaare (Aug 25, 2009)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-2pyWAnViXc

It feels so wonderful to drive. I can´t get enough of it


----------



## marcexec (Feb 11, 2009)

Well done! I envy you.

Could you sum up the parts/money/work?

My father-in-law has the same car and a 12km commute...

Unfortunately my commute is 62 km


----------



## etlaare (Aug 25, 2009)

ok, a quick summary.
all amounts in euro's

donor car (with defective engine) 250
forklift motor Hyster GE 200
6 batteries deep cycle 60 Ah 300
(a bargain actually starting it all off)
Paul and Sabrina re-volt controller board
2nd hand IGBT for the power section some
aluminum+coolers diodes and caps 300
steel for adapter ring connector 40
aluminum adapter plate 65
cables+connectors 120
Contactor fuse vacuumpump
anderson connectors 200
paint bolts nuts etc. 100
chargers (partly 2nd hand) 150
meters shunt wiring 40

I had some leftover parts and material (like the steel for the battery frames, paint, electronic components) patience would have helped to find some more 2nd hand parts on ebay.

I started the project in november, it's a little hard to estimate how many
hours I spent on it all. Most time consuming was searching and reading information on the internet I think on average I spent 1.5 hours a day. 

no reason to envy me, I am sure you will have your fun from doing a conversion yourself as well.


----------



## etlaare (Aug 25, 2009)

and well.. another little milestone maybe..
As of today the Twingo is charged using our own solar power.










It's hard to tell of course from a picture, but it is actually charging on this photo.
So we have a "Solar Twingo" now


----------



## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

Excellent!

That puts an end to any 'long tail pipe' detractors.

Have you worked out how long a charge takes and how much you can get from the solar panels? I guess coming into winter is going to be a real test of the panel's abilities.


----------



## etlaare (Aug 25, 2009)

Woodsmith said:


> Excellent!
> 
> That puts an end to any 'long tail pipe' detractors.
> 
> Have you worked out how long a charge takes and how much you can get from the solar panels? I guess coming into winter is going to be a real test of the panel's abilities.


I have a regulator that reports all sorts of measurements.
But today is the very first charge.
I have an extra battery to store all collected energy, also when I am driving around.
I had calculated for 12 hours at 60% of the max. capacity of the cells to do a full charge.
In practice the batteries are often still half full, but 60% might also have been a little optimistic as it seems an angle of the sun reduces the current quite significantly. It's now 3 hours passed noon and with a clear sky it reports already just 66% of the peek current.
Yet it still seems to supply enough energy for our average daily use for shopping and our trip to the golfcourse (we play less golf in the winter as well ). I also added a converter to power the computer room (I changed to led lights for that purpose of 4x 0.86 watt). It will take a couple of years to compensate for the investment still though.

But it feels even nicer to drive totally "green"  no matter what tail the detractors come up with.


----------



## marcexec (Feb 11, 2009)

in one word: shiny! 

BTW, why don't you add your car to evalbum? It would be the first Twingo, I just checked!

Congrats again! Any new projects ?


----------



## etlaare (Aug 25, 2009)

marcexec said:


> in one word: shiny!
> 
> BTW, why don't you add your car to evalbum? It would be the first Twingo, I just checked!
> 
> Congrats again! Any new projects ?


I will have a look at evalbum tomorrow 
and thank you
as for a new little project, I still want to add some sound to the car.
I bought a little synth chip for that and should program a controller for it soon ...

my wife has some chores in stock for me as well though


----------



## ThWongs (Sep 4, 2010)

Congratulations on a very nice little conversion! 

I just finished reading from start to finish and loved it.

It must be about time I got my finger out and started one myself. If I get an EV grin reading what you guys are doing, just imagine what my grin will be like when I do it myself!


----------



## etlaare (Aug 25, 2009)

well thank you for your interest and your nice reply.
I would definitely go for it if I were you, it is such a nice thing to do.

have fun,
Ed


----------



## SpaceMan (Oct 1, 2010)

Hello From France.
Many Many Twingos here but no one is electric 
Impossible to get legal here. Too much car builders I guess 
Congratulations and glad to see you soon on EVAlbum


----------



## LuisM (Jan 18, 2010)

SpaceMan said:


> Hello From France.
> Many Many Twingos here but no one is electric
> Impossible to get legal here. Too much car builders I guess
> Congratulations and glad to see you soon on EVAlbum


Hi all..

I´ve read the whole post at once... wow... I`m just impressed.

I'm planning to convert some twingos in Spain using D&D SepEx motors.. This will provide both regen and low cost. 

Congratulations, nicely done!

Luis


----------



## etlaare (Aug 25, 2009)

Woooot, I got my Christmas present today.... All the way from China.
Still enjoying our car, but the lead acid batteries were running out a bit...










So lets see if the car will survive these wonderful LiFePo batteries the coming years


----------



## marcexec (Feb 11, 2009)

Cool.
can you give us some stats?
Especially price shipped?


----------



## Modus (Mar 17, 2012)

Etlaare, you made very nice job!!
I'm planing to convert a Twingo as you are.
Can you share more info about the batteries? I'm wondering about free space for LiFePO4, especially in height.
Thanks,


----------



## Kptn_Chaos (Apr 4, 2011)

Hi Etlaare,

great conversion. I thought the Twingo was too small for a conversion.

That´s the reason I started converting a Polo 86C last July. I´m going for 96V, if the authorities cooperate with the weight. The car will be a little like myself; overweight

Now all prework is done and I´m still, since half a year, looking for a suitable motor. I´m not able to get my hands on a forkliftmotor and getting a ADC or D&D from the States is useless. They have no EMV or CE certifikate. Without these documents you dont get the car legal in Germany

Did your authorities want those docs? I doubt it, when I see, that you´ve build the open revolt controller. I also thought of building one . In the beginning, before I get to read all of the regulations.

Like SpaceMan said. Too much motorcompanies arround, blocking the direction they dont want to go (Fuck them)

But again: Great work

Martin


----------



## skooler (Mar 26, 2011)

Kptn_Chaos said:


> Hi Etlaare,
> 
> great conversion. I thought the Twingo was too small for a conversion.
> 
> ...


I'd love to see your Polo conversion, any pictures?

Rebble in the Netherlands have put the Evnetics Soliton controllers through EMC testing and Kostov motors should be usable if that helps.

Cheers

Mike


----------



## Kptn_Chaos (Apr 4, 2011)

Hi Mike,
here is a foto of the object of desire. Though not much to see right now.

Kostov is tooooo big. This damn gearbox has enough room for 8" dia. 9" with some metalwork on the motor. Everything bigger is out

Controller is not the problem. Curtis has everything you need. One of the few american companies that you can buy in Europe without finding out you have parts you can put on the shelf to look at.

but as the americans say: TGIF

Martin


----------



## etlaare (Aug 25, 2009)

Ok, sorry for all the delays. I had some physical problems.
It turned out my forklift motor was beyond repair. Or at least repairing it would have been more expensive as buying a new one.
Which is what I did. I bought a small PM DC Motor.
Only 17 KG but according to the specs it draws the same current as my (ex)forklift. I was nervous about the size at first but now I am driving with it, it feels like a miracle. It is way more efficient so my mileage has increased considerably, also the top speed increased by 20%.

I will share the details later today and also will try to describe the coupler I use. I never posted it here as I wanted to test it for a while first, but by now the concept has proved itself (at least to me) and I think it is a very easy way to make a coupler with quite a few margins for mistakes when building it. Mine is not very well centered and it still runs very smoothly.


----------



## etlaare (Aug 25, 2009)

just finished dinner so lets start with the updates

The motor I found on e-bay was this one:
ME1003 38HP Permanent Magnet Motor EMC-RT200 
It turned out to be from the electric motorsport company, one of the advertisers here.
400 A for one minute and 200 A continuous it said in the specs. Which is perfect for me as I usually cruise a little under 100 A and the Twingo was already fused at 425 A And it never draws more as 300 A for a few seconds when I want to show off at the traffic lights.
It's tiny, but it turns out just to be perfect for the small Twingo which now runs way more efficient yet faster and it dramatically decreased the weight as well. I had to adjust the headlights to their original position (even a little lower).











It is so small you can barely see it under my suddenly huge looking controller..

I kept one of the old batteries in the front for heating purposes in the winter, else the front of the car would probably have been even too high to properly adjust the head lights at all 

Now about the coupler that I promised to explain about, I am afraid I lost the pictures I made of that and I just tried to take a picture through the peek hole of the gearbox, but it was totally blurred.

Still it was rather simple. It is a loose connection. I totally stripped the clutch plate. Only the plate that the spline is connected to is on the gearbox side. On the motor side I just have this ring that I welded to a sprocket that I ordered with the motor. Never mind the sprocket, I don't use it at all, but it was the easiest way to connect anything to the motor axle. Now I already had this nice plate with 3 holes that are the same distance from the center as the connections on the clutch plate. I welded this plate to the sprocket. At first I thought I had a disaster as it turned out it had shifted a little during the welding. But guess what. The loose coupler (I would like to propose to call it Easy Tiny Loose Coupler (or ETL-Coupler (my initials)))  can just handle such mistakes. I just have 3 grade 10.8 bolts in the holes and I secure them with 2 nuts on each bolt. The motor and the gearbox then just have to be connected such that the end of the bolts just stick loosely in the openings of the plate where in the original clutch plate are the bolts (or rivets) to keep the outsides together. 
When your springs wear out this is where you can hear the bouncing noise from (now I wished my technical English was a little better). I was not sure initially if this would all be strong enough to hold, but I guess after all the distance I drove like this and now checking it with the motor exchange where there was nothing detectably worn out, I think it is a proven concept (at least to me and for low powered ev-conversions).

I used the trick to bolt the motor an gearbox together with a slowly running motor to center them and after finding a totally smooth and silent position bolted them together tightly.

Gosh, re-reading this I am not sure anybody will understand what I did.. I will try to get a sharper picture soon through the gearbox peek hole...

sorry









Anyway. I am totally happy again and the famous turtle smile is back on my face every time I need to do some shopping or whatever short drive I can think of to get the opportunity to drive my lovely electric Twingo.

I am in love... with a car .. oh oh .. now I hope my wife will never find this forum ...


----------



## etlaare (Aug 25, 2009)

Kptn_Chaos said:


> Hi Etlaare,
> 
> They have no EMV or CE certifikate. Without these documents you dont get the car legal in Germany
> 
> ...


Hi Martin. To get my car tested by the authorities, I handed over a document which contained all parts that are used in the revolt controller (well almost all ). The individual parts are all certified. I am also quite sure there are Chinese motors available through alibaba.com that do have CE certificates.


----------



## VOLTwingo (Apr 16, 2012)

Hello etlaare. I like your electric Twingo - an excellent conversion! Honestly this is a great temptation for me to make some electric Twingo like yours but right now I'm in the "reconnaissance" phase. And I have a question - what about your motor dimensions, especially the length? I've found one motor about 55 cm. length (shaft incl.) and 28 cm. dia but is there enough room for it in the front Twingo area? Thank you in advance about this information


----------



## etlaare (Aug 25, 2009)

I was a little silent for quite a while, but I still promised you all to post a picture of the connector I made, so here it finally is. 










The 2 parts are not connected, the motor part just pushes the gearbox part. The good thing about it is that it does not have to be perfectly centered or straight. Mine isn't straight at all and it has run smoothly for years now.

Nevertheless, today I replaced my motor for a brushless version with permanent magnets and a Kelly controller which allows me to use regen braking. And since I had to take the motor out for that I decided to give it a try with a permanent connector as well. I used a part of my son's drumgear that is called a drop-clutch. 










This happened to be a perfect match to the axel of the motor shaft so I could use that to center the gearbox part from the clutch plate and weld it to the connector with the sprocket that I ordered with the motor. This little tool helped me to keep it perfectly aligned and straight during the welding between the vise and it runs just as smooth as my earlier ETLconnector now. With the regen braking I think the ETLconnector would not be as good as it will not transfer smoothly when using the motor between brake and push.



Still totally happy with my electric Twingo, but since it was working so well all the time I also started another project. I am not sure if this is the perfect place to post it, but just so you know I am still busy herewith a picture of my solar powered electric tricycle. Some features: Electric hub motor 48V LiFeSo4 battery 144 solar cells regen braking on rearwheel, hydrolic disc brakes on front wheels all wheels have suspension. It's not completely finished yet, I still build outside and so the building speed depends a little on the weather.










I would like ot use the occasion to wish a happy new year to all my loyal followers.


----------



## marcexec (Feb 11, 2009)

Happy new year as well.

I guess your new build would be better placed over at Endless Sphere.

What brushless motor did you get to replace the forklift? Does it have the same shaft? I bet you get at least better overall efficiency due to reduced weight?

BTW, I'd still like to see your build in the EVAlbum (at least can't find it through "Twingo").


----------



## Kptn_Chaos (Apr 4, 2011)

Hi Etlaare,

my Polo has also taken a step forward. Finally I have all the part needed to mount the motor to the gearbox.

Attached is a foto of the adapter I made for the gearbox. Problem was that the spline on the shaft of the gearbox is no DIN or ISO, but VW specific so that you dont get it of the shelf.

I have no clue if it will work as planed, but the alignment is near to perfect. I made a tube with the two fittings to test the alignment. The plate was lasercut with the fit of the aligning pin of the gearbox.
I will wor on my blog within the next 3 weeks (I hope)

Your new projekt looks great. I have a few tadpole trike I made, but right now there is no intention to get them electrified. I need the bikes to keep my belly from growing further.

Have a nice year,
Martin


----------



## rrumpe (Feb 20, 2013)

Would you please share what is the length of the first DC motor that you fitted in. It will be very helpful for all of us that want to convert Twingo, to know what max size(length) the motor can be.


----------



## etlaare (Aug 25, 2009)

rrumpe said:


> Would you please share what is the length of the first DC motor that you fitted in. It will be very helpful for all of us that want to convert Twingo, to know what max size(length) the motor can be.


Hi there rrumpe, earlier in the thread It showed the spare space I had, after removing the discbrake area of the motor it came out on 46 centimeters.

I hope it helps. Have fun with the conversion.


----------



## rrumpe (Feb 20, 2013)

It was really fast replay  Thank you very much. I saw that post(read the tread many times) but I did not understand it very well and thought that this is the plate width.


----------



## etlaare (Aug 25, 2009)

Haven't posted here for a while, just as an update, the Twingo and me are still cruising happily together. Range is extended to over 50 KM now with the Calbs and a Kelly with re-gen. The only drawback to that is that my son is now using the car most of the time for driving him to his school in Amsterdam (avoiding the highways).


----------

