# The perfect electric car



## Guest (Nov 1, 2008)

I don't see to many Electric HumVees and it sure would not take down the city block when you plug in to charge. Most EV conversions are small but yet freeway ready and will take you around locally with great comfort. Purpose built and with materials readily available to the average consumer. Some may need to purchase a converted EV while many are able to convert one. With a good kit most anyone could diy as long as they accepted the technology and follow the directions. We charge with solar and that is growing pretty fast too. Not fast enough for me but it is growing.

Load it up with NiMH or Flooded NiCad or Lithium and you will be good to go for a pretty decent distance. Over night charge and some places you could quick opportunity charge. 

Pete 

http://inertext.homeunix.com/woodruffgroveorganics/Site/Photos.html



engineer_Bill said:


> The purpose of this thread is to discuss and reach a consenses on what is the perfect electric car, and how close and how probable we are to getting there. The way I see it we are stuck with the paradigm of the ICE car. 200-300mile range 5 min refill at high and variable cost at a remote location, (I.E. downtown) with a pay per unit(gal of fuel) that has a variable BTU and mass due to mixure and temp changes. And has a big variable in utilization. This vehicle is a multi purpose that is big and heavy due to being used for commuting 1 person to work and up to 6 people on extended high speed trips, and the annual hunting or camping trip to remote area. Also due to this flexibility the vehicle cost is high 1/3 to 1/2 a years salary. To change this we need a new paridigm.
> 
> I imagine a car that is cheap enough to be a second vehicle, 1/6 to 1/10 years salary, small and light weight 100 mile range, refill in a few hours at home or any location. Able to go freeway speed for at least a short distance to get out of the way of ICE vehicles like large trucks. So far this matches the typical conversion except for the speed and range, but is reachable with current technology.
> 
> ...


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## TexasCotton (Sep 18, 2008)

My perspective (oh no Mr Bill)
Tesla and Ebox(AC Prop)
Tesla driven by Arnold "nater" and Ebox driven by "Tom Hanks" are examples of the "best" current configuration of EV. However, I do not have 40 to 55g to drop on an EV like Tom or Arnold. Both of these "Cali" EV cars are impressive but expensive. Tesla (founded by Paypal dude) has learned the hard and long way about car (steering,suspension,chasis, and carbon fiber). Anyway "perfection" brings along a huge thing called "cost"


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## engineer_Bill (Jun 24, 2008)

I was being facetious about the Humvee to make a point, but to equal the stock ICE engine would take a 386,325Watt electric motor. To run the ICE distance of 300 miles would take over 1.9 million watt hours; to charge that battery pack in 5 hours would take a 2000 amp supply. My house takes a 200AMP supply, so that equals the power for 10 houses, ( maybe not the whole block, but at least 1 street). My point is to follow the path of internal combustion cars is doomed to failure, and is a pointless waste of energy. Even if someone invented a small light 19000 AMP hour ultra battery. What would be the point of building this vehicle? The beauty of electricity is it can be efficiently regulated to a high degree. Any good lab supply can be adjusted from 100Volts down to a mere .5volts with a high degree of accuracy. A PWM controller can be programmed to a wide variety of power and acceleration levels, and reprogrammed at will. The issue I am bringing up is why should we be bound to the design of a gas burning car that was invented a hundred years ago?, (and mimic'ed the design of a horse drawn carriage designed 800 years ago). Unlike an internal combustion engine that takes up most of the engine compartment 1/3 of the car in most cars. An Electric motor is small/light and can even fit inside the wheel hub. This gives the possibility of designing a special purpose vehicle that can be designed to be flexible is ways no one has currently imagined. That is the paradigm change I am looking for. I know rip the gas burner out of a geo throw in a battery pack and you are good to go. Been there and done that. I'm still driving around 2000LBS of steel with a big empty space where the gas engine used to be, and 3 empty seats that collect trash. Since our roads, and drive-in windows are designed for a large boxy vehicle a dramatic change will take time, but how will we get there if we don't know where we are going?


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## engineer_Bill (Jun 24, 2008)

TexasCotton said:


> My perspective (oh no Mr Bill)
> Tesla and Ebox(AC Prop)
> Tesla driven by Arnold "nater" and Ebox driven by "Tom Hanks" are examples of the "best" current configuration of EV. However, I do not have 40 to 55g to drop on an EV like Tom or Arnold. Both of these "Cali" EV cars are impressive but expensive. Tesla (founded by Paypal dude) has learned the hard and long way about car (steering and suspension). Anyway "perfection" brings along a huge thing called "cost"


They may be the best approximation of an ICE vehicle, but my argumant is they may not be the best EV we can build. Part of "best" is affordability, and desirability for the Bob the worker that has to drive to work everyday. The vehicle has to meet his needs, (and not look soo weird that he gets laughed at by his co-workers).


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## Qer (May 7, 2008)

Perfect EV for me is one that isn't limited in any way (except for range) compared with my current ICE's. I loathe small cars since they're small, uncomfortable (I have to fold myself double to not hit my head while entering/exiting), unsafer than bigger cars and you have a problem fitting 4-5 bags of human food, 2 sacks of dog food and whatever we need to bring home (we live enough far off from the stores to try to consolidate our shopping rounds).

That said, I'm really thinking of going for a pickup (probably a Chevy) since I've wanted a pick-up almost since we moved out in nowhere (every now and then I transport something heavy, big and/or dirty), they seem pretty easy to convert (dirt-simple mechanics and lots of elbow room) and a pick-up will be a welcome addition to the current cars. Right now we have a Voyager for road trips (it's one of the few cars where we can stuff in our four dogs + luggage) and a Jeep Grand Cherokee for lousy weather and tough tasks (this friday was the first outbreak of snow with several accidents, having 4x4 was pure bliss). A 2wd EV pick-up will be a perfect addition.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

As far as I'm concerned the only thing standing in the way of the "perfect" ev is cheap enough lithium. If I could have a small to medium sized vehicle with good acceleration and freeway capable top speed, (70mph would be fine), 
and 100 mile range, and pay less than $10K for a durable, (10 year), battery pack, I'd be set for 99% of my driving needs. 50 mile range would handle 95% of my driving needs.
The efficiencies of EV's means that such a vehicle would be an extremely practical vehicle.
My next EV will probably be an S10 pickup with 30 mile range using SLA since lithium is still not cheap enough. That vehicle should handle 90% of my driving needs.


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

engineer_Bill said:


> I was being facetious about the Humvee to make a point, but to equal the stock ICE engine would take a 386,325Watt electric motor. To run the ICE distance of 300 miles would take over 1.9 million watt hours; to charge that battery pack in 5 hours would take a 2000 amp supply. My house takes a 200AMP supply, so that equals the power for 10 houses, ( maybe not the whole block, but at least 1 street). My point is to follow the path of internal combustion cars is doomed to failure, and is a pointless waste of energy. Even if someone invented a small light 19000 AMP hour ultra battery. What would be the point of building this vehicle? The beauty of electricity is it can be efficiently regulated to a high degree. Any good lab supply can be adjusted from 100Volts down to a mere .5volts with a high degree of accuracy. A PWM controller can be programmed to a wide variety of power and acceleration levels, and reprogrammed at will. The issue I am bringing up is why should we be bound to the design of a gas burning car that was invented a hundred years ago?, (and mimic'ed the design of a horse drawn carriage designed 800 years ago). Unlike an internal combustion engine that takes up most of the engine compartment 1/3 of the car in most cars. An Electric motor is small/light and can even fit inside the wheel hub. This gives the possibility of designing a special purpose vehicle that can be designed to be flexible is ways no one has currently imagined. That is the paradigm change I am looking for. I know rip the gas burner out of a geo throw in a battery pack and you are good to go. Been there and done that. I'm still driving around 2000LBS of steel with a big empty space where the gas engine used to be, and 3 empty seats that collect trash. Since our roads, and drive-in windows are designed for a large boxy vehicle a dramatic change will take time, but how will we get there if we don't know where we are going?


I don't understand why you think such a huge battery is needed. I'm planning around a 30kwh battery and I expect at least 100 miles of range out of it. What you have to remember is how little BTUs per gallon of fuel burned actually goes toward propelling an ICE powered vehicle. If you were to look at the potential on paper for lithium sulfur for example, you would see that once you account for the low efficiency of internal combustion, it would be possible in theory at least to have a range of over 1000 miles on battery power alone.


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## order99 (Sep 8, 2008)

I have to admit, the Europeans have an edge on us here-a great many narrow, twisting roads and a more flexible driving attitude for one...i've seen several designs lately that have caused me to re-evaluate my ideas on what I might need in the future.

Check these out:

http://www.ralfwagner.de/mini.htm 

(the City-El page has no English options, and Mr. Wagner's page has much more info)

http://www.twike.us/index.html

Truly some interesting designs...seeing what can be done with foam-and-fiberglass and/or aluminum over tubing, well-it's giving me ideas...


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## Qer (May 7, 2008)

order99 said:


> I have to admit, the Europeans have an edge on us here-a great many narrow, twisting roads and a more flexible driving attitude for one...i've seen several designs lately that have caused me to re-evaluate my ideas on what I might need in the future.


I would say that that depends on where in Europe you are. On German Autobahn the cars often runs at speeds of 150-200 km/h (90-120 mph) or even above that and in Sweden I'd say that much of the traffic on the "motorväg" (which is our highways) usually runs at around 120-130 km/h (70-80 mph), except for a few maniacs that tries to get their drivers license revoked because of serious speeding.

Then we have the former eastern part of Europe where people have got money enough to buy new cars but the roads are still pretty rotten. On a road barely wide enough for two cars to meet comfortably I've met a truck that came at me in at least 100 km/h (60 mph), bouncing madly on the crappy Soviet union built road with huge pot-holes and trees on both sides. That's when you feel extremely small and vulnerable.

That said, there are parts of Europe (and, indeed, Sweden) where traffic is more relaxed and the speed is more fitting for a laid-back EV-attitude. Stay off the highways/autobahns/motorväg and your range will improve. At least if you don't get lost in the process.


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## vgslimo (Oct 21, 2008)

i drive 100-200 miles everyday. i realise most people think that i'm in the minority, (10-20% of population), however if you consider all the delivery drivers,(pizza,restaurant,warp motors,etc..) and all the service personel, (handy men, plumbers, electricians, etc..) we not only make up a much larger percentage than this of the whole, but we are the largest contributors to polution by at least a factor of 3! so with this in mind i think affordable range is a must for this to be truly world changing for the "greenies" and the economicaly concious as well since even if we are only 10% of the population we are 30% of the problem both with polution and burning of non renewable energy. it is my main reason for wanting to make a plug in series hybrid that burns renewable fuel. there are other answer but they all come back to range for people like me. 50mile range if it can be re-charged in less than 20 min. could work. also the "road trip" is not only a desire for people, it is the economic life blood of many towns that only exist as refueling points for tourists as well as a means of getting tourists to our towns and cities to spend their money. so 300 mile range and less then 20 min. charge times becomes even more important if we as a member of a group of people looking to effect change on the world for varied reasons, don't also want to be the cause of major towns and economies suffering greatly. just my .02 worth.


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## Qer (May 7, 2008)

vgslimo said:


> i drive 100-200 miles everyday. i realise most people think that i'm in the minority, (10-20% of population), however if you consider all the delivery drivers,(pizza,restaurant,warp motors,etc..) and all the service personel, (handy men, plumbers, electricians, etc..) we not only make up a much larger percentage than this of the whole, but we are the largest contributors to polution by at least a factor of 3!


Well, some of the deliverance can be done by an EV already. Check out this site:

http://www.smithelectricvehicles.com/

I know that it won't cover the whole spectra you're asking for, but I think that what we will see more and more of in the future is not *one* solution that fits *everyone*, we'll see a whole spectra of solutions for different purposes. This is of course a drawback, but the advantage is that they'll be more optimized for their tasks too. An ICE isn't a good solution after all, it's just a good enough solution.


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## vgslimo (Oct 21, 2008)

Qer said:


> I know that it won't cover the whole spectra you're asking for, but I think that what we will see more and more of in the future is not *one* solution that fits *everyone*, we'll see a whole spectra of solutions for different purposes. This is of course a drawback, but the advantage is that they'll be more optimized for their tasks too. An ICE isn't a good solution after all, it's just a good enough solution.


i agree with you. there must be some smart people working on better charging solutions as well but i'm sure that the different battery types also causes some major problems with this as well.


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## 280z1975 (Oct 2, 2008)

At the moment this car is peaking my interest ... but it's one of many planned EV's

http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/feedarticle/7959735

"He said the car, driven by two large lithium ion batteries, would use a normal 220 Volt home outlet to power-up and have a traveling range of about 400 kilometers (250 miles)."

"The car will be priced at around 200,000 rand for the domestic market and about 25,000 euros in Europe, Meiring said, while acknowledging that a depressed global and domestic automobile sector could dampen sales initially."

So a car that is 25,000 euros (about 32,000 USD), seats 6, and has a range of 250 miles seems almost to good. I mean, the Tesla battery pack is around 20kUSD according to estimates. So either they are getting some sort of super discount on the batteries or the SA government is helping the company take the loss of cost on the cars.

If these come here, with the range and price around the same, I'm going to get one. But I don't plan on to holding out for ths car.


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## Qer (May 7, 2008)

280z1975 said:


> At the moment this car is peaking my interest ... but it's one of many planned EV's
> 
> http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/feedarticle/7959735


I want to see it pass EuroNCAP before I trust it. I have no idea how African cars hold up when it comes to safety but, for example, China has a pretty rotten reputation in those aspects...

Otherwise it sounds very interesting.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

vgslimo said:


> also the "road trip" is not only a desire for people, it is the economic life blood of many towns that only exist as refueling points for tourists as well as a means of getting tourists to our towns and cities to spend their money. so 300 mile range and less then 20 min. charge times becomes even more important if we as a member of a group of people looking to effect change on the world for varied reasons, don't also want to be the cause of major towns and economies suffering greatly. just my .02 worth.


It's unavoidable. The "road trip" or "joy ride" is based on cheap fuel. Cheap fuel is gone. Pointlessly driving around and shopping for entertainment is not a necessary or practical activity in the face of rising fuel prices and declining economies. We are facing a new reality in the world that people are only just beginning to realize.


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## vgslimo (Oct 21, 2008)

JRP3 said:


> It's unavoidable. The "road trip" or "joy ride" is based on cheap fuel. Cheap fuel is gone. Pointlessly driving around and shopping for entertainment is not a necessary or practical activity in the face of rising fuel prices and declining economies. We are facing a new reality in the world that people are only just beginning to realize.


i disagree. nothing is unavoidable and renewable fuels such as corn and veggie oil don't have to be expensive if america starts paying farmers to grow crops for fuel instead of paying them to not farm for price control. it's just a matter of applying the same level of skills and ingenuity we showed at every other major time of crises or growth in industry in our past. like building an atom bomb that could never be done. or making a train that could pull more than steam loco's could. all things can be done by people with a mind to do it. ( except those crazy perpetual motion guys! lol just joking )


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

I don't think you recognize the magnitude of the problem. We can not grow our way back into the cheap fuel of the 20th century. More and more of the world is trying to live as we do. We consume 25% of the worlds fuel production here in the US, what happens when the rest of the world tries to do the same? Crops cannot replace a large enough share of our oil usage, and cannot do it cheaply enough to make a difference. We need to drive less, and drive more efficiently. Hence the move towards EV's which are much more efficient than ICE's will ever be.


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## vgslimo (Oct 21, 2008)

once again. look to country's like brazil taking care of themselves. i agree ev's are the future but eventually we won't have any coal or un spent urainium. so we gonna need renewable fuels in all forms to solve our countries problems. and there are renewable fuel crops that grow in non araible land. ie. land not conducive to food crops. all solutions are valid just not easy. need to move now so that we can hope to keep up before we end up in a world deppresion.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

vgslimo said:


> once again. look to country's like brazil taking care of themselves. i agree ev's are the future but eventually we won't have any coal or un spent urainium. so we gonna need renewable fuels in all forms to solve our countries problems. and there are renewable fuel crops that grow in non araible land. ie. land not conducive to food crops. all solutions are valid just not easy. need to move now so that we can hope to keep up before we end up in a world deppresion.


We are not Brazil, we don't have large amounts of sugarcane and cheap labor. Not a viable solution for us or a good comparison, other than the fact that they are currently living in a sustainable way for that country. If they start consuming the way we do it will no longer work for them either.
Yes we will need renewable ways to generate electricity, but they probably won't be "fuel" based. Wind, solar, hydro, hydro-thermal are more likely.


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## fugdabug (Jul 14, 2008)

The perfect electric vehicle? 
Well in my mind it would be adaptable to the needs of a personal/family/small business vehicle. Configurable in either a two or four person sedan, wagon(hatch-back) or mini-van form. A mid to heavy model would seat up to seven people. But either way you look at it a vehicle should give a minimum of 400 miles per charge, to be 'perfect'. It should have absolutely NO reliance on fossil fuel for power or lubrication. The plastics, polymers well... that goes without saying for the foreseeable future. The vehicle should be with standard amenities (radio, heat/cooling, interior lighting/entertainment expansion possibilities, comfort and protection in a collision).
However I would suggest that there is something else that has come to be ignored with electric vehicles, auto guidance in urban settings. I foresee a need for some kind of auto guidance feature in a city environment that can be set up upon arrival to the 'area'. One 'plugs in' to the system via a network, a guidance system then takes over like an auto-pilot plotting most efficient course to destination(s) storage parking or route through the city. A complete encyclopaedic reference then becomes available to the operator or passengers as part of the system to allow those with a 'no pre-set destination' to configure a destination (for an evening out or shopping, what-have-you). Think of this, a person or the passengers enter a card in a slot in the vehicles seating arrangement (this supplies the ID of each passenger for safety and system identification), the guidance system is controlled by the city's complex system. The vehicle is not attached to the road but is guided by a 'beacon' signal in the road-way. Or better yet for those traveling to a specific city the vehicle they are in is 'parked and stored', and the system of the city is run for entirely mass transit units. In ex-urban or suburban areas or rural the vehicles are solely independent... Ooooooooo how's that for shades of metropolis...???


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## 280z1975 (Oct 2, 2008)

Qer said:


> I want to see it pass EuroNCAP before I trust it. I have no idea how African cars hold up when it comes to safety but, for example, China has a pretty rotten reputation in those aspects...
> 
> Otherwise it sounds very interesting.


Having lived in SA twice (but short stays) I can say a lot of their stuff is up to international spec. Plus the fact they want to go international further leads me to believe they will meet international specifications.

On a side note: the 400km range was the priemium option, the first option is only 200km ... event that range and the 25,000 price tag would be impressive.


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## Qer (May 7, 2008)

JRP3 said:


> I don't think you recognize the magnitude of the problem. We can not grow our way back into the cheap fuel of the 20th century. More and more of the world is trying to live as we do. We consume 25% of the worlds fuel production here in the US, what happens when the rest of the world tries to do the same?


I think you nailed the real problem here, yes. US consumes 25% of all the oil with a mere 370 million people, EU isn't far off in consumption with about 500 million people. The world population is somewhere around 6.5 billion. Somehow it simply don't add up.

Yeah, I think the future will be quite different. Either we accept that we have to change our life style or the future will be an orgy in conflicts over energy in all possible forms. I know which future I prefer...


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## fugdabug (Jul 14, 2008)

Qer said:


> I think you nailed the real problem here, yes. US consumes 25% of all the oil with a mere 370 million people, EU isn't far off in consumption with about 500 million people. The world population is somewhere around 6.5 billion. Somehow it simply don't add up.
> 
> Yeah, I think the future will be quite different. Either we accept that we have to change our life style or the future will be an orgy in conflicts over energy in all possible forms. I know which future I prefer...


Ummm, now you see why I quite blacksmithing and am trying so hard to get a fully functional EV on the road that can be used for the majority of our driving needs around here. One has to make a decision: either you love the only planet we have to call home or you continue to pillage and soil the only nest we have until it is no more. AND tell me ANYONE, who can say how far off that is? We are (in human recorded history terms) in uncharted territory as for the effect we are really having on this planet. Now as far as the 25% of all the oil produced, we are starting to lose that status with the build-up by mainland China. And even India... and Europe and Indonesia use the vast majority of diesel fuel from what I have been able to glean of stats. Russia is about 4th in usable fossil fuels. But no matter who takes the 'booby prize' for most consumption we cannot ignore that what we as a community of folks wanting to build, experiment with and produce EV's are doing is trying to raise not only our awareness but the awareness of our fellow humans... This isn't a hobby, it isn't a game and it sure isn't 'just for fun'... this is the future we are talking about here. A future WE have to push to create. And though it is only ONE piece of the puzzle, it is a BIG piece. I may be preaching to the chior, but it is just that much a matter of life and death to me. The life or death of this planet and all living beings... my grandkids, kids and us all. Like I said before, we do not know what effect we are really having and how soon that effect may create a NO-OUT situation for human kind... we start NOW and we go with what we have... and we don't stop until it is changed across the board. write political entities that say "think green" "think environment" and hold them responsible as well... are they trying to change on a personal level or causing change... driving an EV or at least a hybrid? Or using low energy lamps... or even promoting and investing in future tech like EV's? If not, WHY? Find out. Bug them until you get the truth! PUSH! and just DO... and if nothing else keep plugging away until you have the vehicle built you want built! And stick around, 'cause it is gonna get realllly innerestin'...


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## 1clue (Jul 21, 2008)

IMO, the ideal electric vehicle is one which carries the most common cargo the most common distance.

For me, and probably for most people, that means ONE person on their daily commute, with the possibility of taking a small cargo like a couple bags of groceries or a briefcase.

I've lived in quite a few different American states. I've lived in rural settings and in Chicago. One thing you can mostly count on is that each vehicle has 1 person in it. It's definitely true in Chicago. I also went to Seattle, and it was really evident there. They have several lanes of "normal" traffic, and then you have the car pool lane. In order to use the car pool lane, you need at least 2 people in the car. This lane was mostly empty all the times I was on the highway there, with a packed 3 or 4 lanes of cars with one guy in them.


FWIW, the "Expressways" in Chicago (I've never heard that term anywhere else) are anything but express at any time when normal people commute. You could easily get by with less than 55 mph. Very often, the city street is faster than the "expressway." (Sorry, this term made me laugh when I first heard it and still does).

I have what I consider to be a fairly standard Chicago-area commute. I go about 15 miles each way by road, some of which is 55 mph but rarely do I get to drive that fast. There's a lot of 50 mph traffic though, and a lot of stop and go.

Better yet, most of my commute could be covered by bicycle trails or back streets with few stop signs. You can have up to 2 hp on a bicycle here in Illinois and still qualify as a bicycle.

My ideal EV at this point is a recumbent bicycle or inverted tricycle with a motor on it, and a couple panniers and a removable wind screen to keep my clothes clean while I go to work. Switch to some sweats for the way home, and get some exercise.


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## order99 (Sep 8, 2008)

Sounds like i'm not the only one wanting a Twike, 1clue...sadly, those things are effin' pricey! If the School/job/income Trifecta ever resolves itself, I may need to ******* Engineer a homebrew cousin (a guy can dream, right?).

Lowering my sights though, I spy some really nice Human-powered options:

http://bicycleuniverse.info/eqp/

Scroll down about halfway for a cornucopia of Velomoblie and Quadricycle links. Pick a favorite, add some batteries and a low-powered motor and you have a power-assisted Pedalcar-perfect for commutes if you don't need cross-country, highway-speed capacities.If I didn't live in a rural area, commute 115 miles round trip to school and have to use several 65MPH roads, i'd already have done this.

Seriously, even MY non-existent budget can (just barely!) afford a used Recumbent Trike, a 1973 Kharmann Ghia Generator (50A , 600 RPM at 12V) 2 12V, 20A/hr Bike packs(24V series, might get about 2HP from the Generator) and enough Coroplast for a Faring (free after Election Day if you ask nicely)  . The expensive part would be the Controller-if I can swing that later, I can swing an extra battery (cheaper than a DC/DC Converter for now) for Lights in case the Sunset catches me unawares and a pretty DON'T HIT ME flag...

Similar designs have been clocked at 30MPH for about 40 miles per charge(assisted pedal only of course) by their builders...sadly, due to my needs above, such a vehicle would only be a toy for me at this point. I intend to try it next year though(income allowing) as a Test bed for my non-existent Skills. I'd rather blow up a cheap Trike (and still be able to pedal it home!) than an expensive Highway Prototype!

BTW, 1clue-if you could use something like this, i'll PM you my Parts List and Budget...using Ebay/Craigslist for the motor and Trike, reputable dealers for Batteries/Controller/Contacts and Deranged Lunacy(Election Signs, PVC and Duct Tape) for a Faring, I see an outlay of only $1000.00 or less for a Human-Hybrid barebones. You could add extras as you go of course-and if you have better scrounging skills than myself, check out:

http://www.instructables.com/

I love these guys-truly my Heroes!


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## 1clue (Jul 21, 2008)

Yes, recumbent trikes are expensive. A lot of that is from the low production numbers, and a lot is because of weight considerations.

I already have a recumbent bike. I love it, but it cost more than my current ICE car is worth right now. If you don't have the money, I recommend finding a different hobby. You get what you pay for in this case. The cheapest recumbent I've ever seen that was worth riding was around $1500 USD, and to get a decent one you need to double that.

For an EV experiment, I would like a fully suspended trike which probably means I gotta build it myself. Which means it's probably going to make my bike look cheap. I think I would try for carbon fiber rather than metal because I already have the vacuum pump and most of the other stuff to do that sort of work, and this project would be a good intro into vacuum infusion as well.

If I went with metal I would probably have to start by buying a better welder that can handle aluminum, and that would probably be around $1500 all by itself(I've been browsing and have my most probable candidate chosen) not including tanks. Not sure if I could handle heat treating aluminum, to de-stress it. All that turns out to be a whole lot of gear just to get started, before I ever buy materials for the trike. This is a hobby for me, so I think I'd like to stay cheaper for now.


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## TexasCotton (Sep 18, 2008)

JRP3 said:


> We are not Brazil, we don't have large amounts of sugarcane and cheap labor. Not a viable solution for us or a good comparison, other than the fact that they are currently living in a sustainable way for that country. If they start consuming the way we do it will no longer work for them either.
> Yes we will need renewable ways to generate electricity, but they probably won't be "fuel" based. Wind, solar, hydro, hydro-thermal are more likely.


I agree the world does not have enough farm land to just to produce bio fuels. We need way more conservation, EV, and hybrids. The US drove 11 million less miles according to the media. Obama pushed for ethanol which is a huge mistake because now at least two ethanol companys are losing their business because of speculation on Corn and Oil futures (Boo Hoo)


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

TexasCotton said:


> I agree the world does not have enough farm land to just to produce bio fuels. We need way more conservation, EV, and hybrids. The US drove 11 million less miles according to the media. Obama pushed for ethanol which is a huge mistake because now at least two ethanol companys are losing their business because of speculation on Corn and Oil futures (Boo Hoo)


Using fertile farm land to grow fuel for cars that are only 20% efficient was a dumb idea. However biofuels from algea could solve that problem, and they are working on it. Its time to start growing corn for food again.


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## HDS (Aug 11, 2008)

I agree with you that an EV has to be affordable to be viable. It will most likely be a second vehicle that is used whenever possible but, because it can't do everything that an ICE can do (range, tow a boat, etc), it will not replace the house hold ICE; at least not in the very near future. I believe the time is right for an EV option as a commuter vehicle, serving a large percentage of our driving needs. If the connect/disconnect from the AC supply is fast and easy enough, than it can be used by "short trip" people like pizza delivery. The design should not be limited to trying to match ICE's in range because we would be plugging in every night. We don't refuel our ICE's every day. 

If these vehicles became popular and more widespread, I think we would see changes socially because of it. You would see restaurants offering special parking spots with recharging available (possibly with a tax incentive). If you were making a "road trip", you probably would find hotels and motels setting up these parking spots to try to get your business. But i do believe that the practical vehicle has to come first, there has to be a lot of them out there (like the Prius), and then you will see a flood of people getting into EV's in a big way. 

Perhaps this will drive the price of lithiums down and we will see things finally turn around. It is due.


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## fugdabug (Jul 14, 2008)

HDS said:


> I agree with you that an EV has to be affordable to be viable. It will most likely be a second vehicle that is used whenever possible but, because it can't do everything that an ICE can do (range, tow a boat, etc), it will not replace the house hold ICE; at least not in the very near future. I believe the time is right for an EV option as a commuter vehicle, serving a large percentage of our driving needs. If the connect/disconnect from the AC supply is fast and easy enough, than it can be used by "short trip" people like pizza delivery. The design should not be limited to trying to match ICE's in range because we would be plugging in every night. We don't refuel our ICE's every day.
> 
> If these vehicles became popular and more widespread, I think we would see changes socially because of it. You would see restaurants offering special parking spots with recharging available (possibly with a tax incentive). If you were making a "road trip", you probably would find hotels and motels setting up these parking spots to try to get your business. But i do believe that the practical vehicle has to come first, there has to be a lot of them out there (like the Prius), and then you will see a flood of people getting into EV's in a big way.
> 
> Perhaps this will drive the price of lithiums down and we will see things finally turn around. It is due.


And thus the catch-22... a broadspectrum EV application. Which is one thing not on the immediate horizon. Ethanol is NOT an answer, butynol is promising, and for most (as up here where we live... ) our electricity is generated by COAL. The Twin Cities to our south has a nuclear facility at Prairie Island, and numerous feeds from Coal and hydro power. The one thing I have been working with an engineer friend of mine for some time now is (when we can finally get set down to practical construction...) is the implementation of a home/residential power generation station based on either butynol or wood fired steam... but see that is NOT something practical for urban-suburban or general applications... Out here on 40 acres of trees and fairly wild woods, it may play out for us... but to come up with something that allows a reduction in cost and a reduction in dependence on fossil fuels in the chain of transmission for electricity leaves us with solar or wind... Then there is the 'scrubbing' of the exhaust if butynol or wood roughage is used, as well. That has to be considered too.
Minnesota the state where I live has undertaken a 'wind initiative'... And we (my wife and I) are currently making application at the cost of $2 per block of 500Kw per month for an additional charge to cover investment in wind generated energy from the farms being built and that have been built.
There has to be an answer that we can use to plug the hole in the question of how we can provide power to individual users without an environmental or detrimental cost to human safety health and economy. This is a must. If it isn't possible to come up with an answer sooner than later... frankly folks as Bender would say,"We're boned!"


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