# Formula Electric SAE Competition - Motor Selection HELP



## Batterypoweredtoad (Feb 5, 2008)

If budget is an issue could you use a Buick EAssist motor? 
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=85514&sid=622315d2642745a60a5bd7e3c8366c37 










Sourcing a higher voltage controller than used in that thread could get you the 100kw you need.


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## MrZion (May 4, 2016)

Interesting suggestion (how he thinks at 300V it would produce 100kW), do you know where the people within the blog are picking these up?


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## Batterypoweredtoad (Feb 5, 2008)

2012 Buick Lacrosse hybrid alternator on Car-part.com. Can be picked up for $100 all day long.


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## MalcolmB (Jun 10, 2008)

The Motenergy ME1616 is rated at 55 kW peak and according to the website is available in various voltages. Standard specification is 96V and it can be bought for around $1200. It weighs twice as much as the Emrax motor and is about twice the size, but it is water-cooled. The company answers emails quickly in my experience.

Is the 300V requirement part of the SAE rules?

Malcolm


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## MrZion (May 4, 2016)

The 300V is not a requirement, but we got a sponsored IMD from bender that was programed for a 300V system. So we are trying to find motors that operate at 300V before we jump ship and ask bender if they will re-program the unit.


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## coleasterling (Feb 29, 2012)

Keep in mind you don't actually want a 300V system. 300V is your absolute peak voltage per the rules. You'll want some headroom in there. 

Are y'all a first year team overall, or just first year electric? 300kg is really heavy unless that includes driver...Even then, that's heavy.

A few teams have used salvage motors from a Tahoe Hybrid transmission, which has two Remy HVH 250's in it. Rinehart makes a suitable controller. 

You might look at buying a Zero motorcycle setup or maybe even whole used bike, as well.


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

coleasterling said:


> A few teams have used salvage motors from a Tahoe Hybrid transmission, which has two Remy HVH 250's in it. Rinehart makes a suitable controller.


A salvaged motor makes sense to me, especially for a low budget. Availability of a matching and usable (outside of the original car) controller is important, so that's great tip. I assume Rinehart offers this controller because the HVH 250 is available to other buyers (not just the auto manufacturers), unlike most production EV and hybrid motors.

Using the HVH motor without the Two-Mode Hybrid transmission case means making a housing for it... maybe a good project challenge.


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## MrZion (May 4, 2016)

coleasterling said:


> Keep in mind you don't actually want a 300V system. 300V is your absolute peak voltage per the rules. You'll want some headroom in there.
> 
> Are y'all a first year team overall, or just first year electric? 300kg is really heavy unless that includes driver...Even then, that's heavy.
> 
> ...


Yea we are a first year team! And on the note about weight, I recorded 18 school spec's given and there all within the 250kg - 300kg range (roughly), what school did you compete with?

And Nice that Remy motor is quite impressive! did you guys use that combination?

Yea, I called Zero to see if they would sell there motor/controller separately and what not but just got a flat no.


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## coleasterling (Feb 29, 2012)

Where'd you get the weight information? The program event guide often lists weight with driver if that's your source. I'm not saying go crazy trying to optimize, but you should be shooting for under 230kg. That said, as a first year team, your priority should be to pass tech and compete in all events. At Lincoln, that will get you a top 5 finish. Keep it as simple as it can possibly be.

The Remy is a good motor, but heavy. GFR ran it in one of their first e-cars. As far as Zero goes, a full bike isn't a bad way to go. There's a 2015 Zero DS ZF12.5 in Austin, TX for $7500 for example. Compared to other systems, that's not bad. The Rinehart for the Remy is something like $4500 alone and then you've got to find and buy the motor. 

Thaaat said, and I might be ridiculed some for it, but I would even go as far as using a brushed system for a first year team. Series wound golf cart motors are plentiful, cheap, there are tons of controller options, and they can be over-volted quite a bit. Less wiring, less tuning, easier setup, waaay cheap. 

I was on Texas A&M's Hybrid team in '11 on the motor team, then our FSAE team in '12.


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

coleasterling said:


> Thaaat said, and I might be ridiculed some for it, but I would even go as far as using a brushed system for a first year team. Series wound golf cart motors are plentiful, cheap, there are tons of controller options, and they can be over-volted quite a bit. Less wiring, less tuning, easier setup, waaay cheap.


I see the logic there - there are many aspects to a car, and no team creates sophisticated solutions for all of them from scratch in a single year; you could put together a suitable chassis which packages the electric powertrain components first, then upgrade various components in subsequent years. A challenge with this approach is the interdependence of all components: a low-voltage battery feeding a DC controller for a brushed motor means that none of the parts are usable as-is in system using modern technology (higher voltage AC). The motor's physical format determines mounting options, and its operating speed range determines gearing (and gearing ratio determines mechanical drive options). Of course if you shoot for just under 300 volts even with a brushed DC motor, the battery would be compatible with a different controller and motor later; you could leave a big space for the motor, and connect it to the final drive with a two-stage chain drive, for motor (size and speed) flexibility.

As with any design exercise, the first step should be to establish goals and requirements, then chose a solution to address those. Is the point to learn about advanced electric drive systems, or to make a quick car, or what?


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## coleasterling (Feb 29, 2012)

brian_ said:


> A challenge with this approach is the interdependence of all components: a low-voltage battery feeding a DC controller for a brushed motor means that none of the parts are usable as-is in system using modern technology (higher voltage AC). The motor's physical format determines mounting options, and its operating speed range determines gearing (and gearing ratio determines mechanical drive options). Of course if you shoot for just under 300 volts even with a brushed DC motor, the battery would be compatible with a different controller and motor later; you could leave a big space for the motor, and connect it to the final drive with a two-stage chain drive, for motor (size and speed) flexibility.


I definitely see the value in this, but I'm not sure I would push for that in a first year team. I would think (having never been in the situation), that documenting the process, scheduling, competition planning, competition itself, budgeting, etc...would be more valuable than attempting to make the design scale. I dunno...I guess to me, the tough part of a custom solution would be characterizing the motor and tuning. I just see a team getting stuck on motor tuning and not being able to finish the car. Buying a package makes it as simple as mounting and wiring. If you can afford it, then a 300V package makes a lot of sense for the reasons you've stated.


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## dain254 (Oct 8, 2015)

Figured to toss in a quick $.02. From my experience on SAE Baja, and having shared shop space with the FSAE guys... adhering to all of the small detail rules regarding safety and chassis design - simply getting a working car together for competition that passes all inspections is a staggering accomplishment for a new team. That being said, a new team will likely not want to go bleeding edge on technology from an electric drives standpoint

Someone mentioned earlier the ME1616 motor, which is the liquid cooled version of the ME1507 - either of those motors would get the job done - and going someone mid range on voltage 100-150V will keep costs of controller and BMS reasonable if budget is a major constraint. A person could expect 40-50hp out of a ~120V ME1507


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## Nuts&Volts (Dec 20, 2011)

dain254 said:


> Figured to toss in a quick $.02. From my experience on SAE Baja, and having shared shop space with the FSAE guys... adhering to all of the small detail rules regarding safety and chassis design - simply getting a working car together for competition that passes all inspections is a staggering accomplishment for a new team. That being said, a new team will likely not want to go bleeding edge on technology from an electric drives standpoint
> 
> Someone mentioned earlier the ME1616 motor, which is the liquid cooled version of the ME1507 - either of those motors would get the job done - and going someone mid range on voltage 100-150V will keep costs of controller and BMS reasonable if budget is a major constraint. A person could expect 40-50hp out of a ~120V ME1507



You may also try contacting the manufacturer of the ME1616, Motenergy, and seeing if they could get you a custom wound version for either a higher voltage or dual 3phase system. More complex, but still a cheap option give you more power. Or just run two of them with two size6 sevcons. 

Look up and PM Frodus on these forums. He can get you a good deal on controllers/motors 




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## MrZion (May 4, 2016)

coleasterling said:


> Where'd you get the weight information? The program event guide often lists weight with driver if that's your source. I'm not saying go crazy trying to optimize, but you should be shooting for under 230kg. That said, as a first year team, your priority should be to pass tech and compete in all events. At Lincoln, that will get you a top 5 finish. Keep it as simple as it can possibly be.


Okay great thanks for the bench mark, passed that on to the chassis guys!

Thaaat said, and I might be ridiculed some for it, but I would even go as far as using a brushed system for a first year team. Series wound golf cart motors are plentiful, cheap, there are tons of controller options, and they can be over-volted quite a bit. Less wiring, less tuning, easier setup, waaay cheap. 


I was on Texas A&M's Hybrid team in '11 on the motor team, then our FSAE team in '12.

Texas A&M, I bet your facility was unreal!



coleasterling said:


> I definitely see the value in this, but I'm not sure I would push for that in a first year team. I would think (having never been in the situation), that documenting the process, scheduling, competition planning, competition itself, budgeting, etc...would be more valuable than attempting to make the design scale. I dunno...I guess to me, the tough part of a custom solution would be characterizing the motor and tuning. I just see a team getting stuck on motor tuning and not being able to finish the car. Buying a package makes it as simple as mounting and wiring. If you can afford it, then a 300V package makes a lot of sense for the reasons you've stated.


Yea it's interesting, It seems that motor tuning is quite the challenge, something that I did not consider. I am doing my own EV conversion, and once you have the concept down a EV isn't overly complex (moving parts and what not) compared to a internal combustion engine (i know someone is going to call me out on this..)



dain254 said:


> Figured to toss in a quick $.02. From my experience on SAE Baja, and having shared shop space with the FSAE guys... adhering to all of the small detail rules regarding safety and chassis design - simply getting a working car together for competition that passes all inspections is a staggering accomplishment for a new team. That being said, a new team will likely not want to go bleeding edge on technology from an electric drives standpoint
> 
> Someone mentioned earlier the ME1616 motor, which is the liquid cooled version of the ME1507 - either of those motors would get the job done - and going someone mid range on voltage 100-150V will keep costs of controller and BMS reasonable if budget is a major constraint. A person could expect 40-50hp out of a ~120V ME1507


The bleeding edge for us is out of the question mainly because of budget, we are a new team with very little money. Starting from the bottom in regards to that.

I'll look more into those motors. I'm hesitant (too a point) to drop below 300V because we order our bender with 300V in mind, so sending it back I'm not sure how pleased they will be, but at the end of the day it is what it is.


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## MrZion (May 4, 2016)

What's your guys opinion on Hub motors, and controlling them. We might have the ability to get two hub motors for extremely cheap. The spec's of these motors I don't know off the top of my head, but someone has figured they are suitable.


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## coleasterling (Feb 29, 2012)

MrZion said:


> Texas A&M, I bet your facility was unreal!
> 
> Yea it's interesting, It seems that motor tuning is quite the challenge, something that I did not consider. I am doing my own EV conversion, and once you have the concept down a EV isn't overly complex (moving parts and what not) compared to a internal combustion engine (i know someone is going to call me out on this..)
> 
> ...


EV's are certainly easier from a mechanical build perspective, but you trade that for design and testing/tuning complexity on the electric side. BMS, brake plausibility, motor/inverter tuning, accumulator design and manufacture, etc...

This was posted in the for sale section recently. Pretty good deal if you guys decided to go that direction.

For Sale: PM100DX +Remy HVH250 motors 3500?


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## coleasterling (Feb 29, 2012)

MrZion said:


> What's your guys opinion on Hub motors, and controlling them. We might have the ability to get two hub motors for extremely cheap. The spec's of these motors I don't know off the top of my head, but someone has figured they are suitable.


I don't know of any hub motors off the top of my head that will run at 300V. They generally have poor specific power, as well.


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

Hub motors also add a bunch of mass to the hubs, which means increased unsprung weight... which is bad. I don't know why hub motors would be considered, but if you go that way I suggest being prepared to explain (in the design documentation and any presentation) the reasoning behind this choice.


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## MrZion (May 4, 2016)

Nuts&Volts said:


> You may also try contacting the manufacturer of the ME1616, Motenergy, and seeing if they could get you a custom wound version for either a higher voltage or dual 3phase system. More complex, but still a cheap option give you more power. Or just run two of them with two size6 sevcons.
> 
> Look up and PM Frodus on these forums. He can get you a good deal on controllers/motors
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


My recent reply didn't include your comment, thank you for the heads up really appreciate it!

I'll definitely contact them, have you heard of other companies doing custom windings for a one off?


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## MrZion (May 4, 2016)

coleasterling said:


> I don't know of any hub motors off the top of my head that will run at 300V. They generally have poor specific power, as well.


Oh okay, my knowledge of hub motors is really limited. I'm much more familiar with inductance and brushless.



brian_ said:


> Hub motors also add a bunch of mass to the hubs, which means increased unsprung weight... which is bad. I don't know why hub motors would be considered, but if you go that way I suggest being prepared to explain (in the design documentation and any presentation) the reasoning behind this choice.


right, the reason we were considering these (because there power output) and because a college of an intern (on our team) had two hub motors that he was willing to part with for very cheep for us.


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

MrZion said:


> Oh okay, my knowledge of hub motors is really limited. I'm much more familiar with inductance and brushless.


"Induction", not "inductance"... but we know what you mean.

"Hub motor" is a description of where it is installed, not the type of motor. Sure, available hub motors are usually "brushless" (meaning not brushed DC), but they could be induction, 3-phase permanent magnet, electronically commutated permanent magnet (usually called "brushless DC"), or even some other bizarre configuration.



MrZion said:


> right, the reason we were considering these (because there power output) and because a college of an intern (on our team) had two hub motors that he was willing to part with for very cheep for us.


There's a non-hub-mounted motor of every level of power output.

The price of parts is certainly a valid concern, but is this supposed to be a junkyard challenge? Any available cheap motor mounted in the right place would probably be a better choice, allowing next year's version to move on to a better motor without re-designing the rest of the car.


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## MrZion (May 4, 2016)

brian_ said:


> "Induction", not "inductance"... but we know what you mean.
> 
> "Hub motor" is a description of where it is installed, not the type of motor. Sure, available hub motors are usually "brushless" (meaning not brushed DC), but they could be induction, 3-phase permanent magnet, electronically commutated permanent magnet (usually called "brushless DC"), or even some other bizarre configuration.
> 
> ...


Right, I meant induction.

And no this isn't a junkyard competition, some teams with a massive budget get the most up-to-date tech and equipment. At the end of the day we want to build something that we are proud of, and not just some rolling piece of garbage.

I know that hub motors just describes the location, but the way they perform in regards to location, weight, actual driving capability etc., the pro's and con's of those


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

MrZion said:


> And no this isn't a junkyard competition, some teams with a massive budget get the most up-to-date tech and equipment. At the end of the day we want to build something that we are proud of, and not just some rolling piece of garbage.


I appreciate the amount of expense and effort that goes into these projects. My point is just that you get points for your design and fabrication work, not for making use of what you happen to find.



MrZion said:


> I know that hub motors just describes the location, but the way they perform in regards to location, weight, actual driving capability etc., the pro's and con's of those


They won't be any different in weight and capability from motors of the same design which are mounted elsewhere. They tend to be "pancake" proportioned, due to the intended location, but you can get pancake non-hub motors as well.

As for the hub location...
*advantages*: doesn't use space inboard, doesn't require axle shafts
*disadvantages*: adds unsprung weight, restricts motor design, requires long and flexing power cables, interferes with brake mounting, restricts suspension design


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## coleasterling (Feb 29, 2012)

The fastest teams in the world run either 4 AMK or custom servomotors at the hubs with dual planetary reductions...Of course that's a far cry from the hub motors we're discussing. That said, there's no reason you couldn't run the traditional hub motors we're discussing inboard with a driveshaft. 



brian_ said:


> My point is just that you get points for your design and fabrication work, not for making use of what you happen to find.


This is only somewhat true. Most of the points in FSAE come from Dynamic events. There are very, very few points given for fabrication, which is good and bad for teams. Anyway, at the Lincoln competition, competing (and finishing) every Dynamic event is nearly guaranteed to get you into the top 10 in the electric class if the competition progresses at the pace it has the past several years (read slowly). I see zero issue with using whatever is around as long as a team has an engineering basis for it. While not hard calculations and number crunching, economics and schedule are valid engineering design considerations. If you have a motor available and it satisfies your performance requirements, then why not use it? It really depends on the weighting of your selection matrix, but I would personally rate cost and schedule very high for a first year team. 

In 2012, we made finals in the Design event with one of the most simple cars at the competition. Space frame with single cylinder 450 with integral dry sump (yfz450) and NO aero. In a competition dominated by aero, we were one of only two teams to make Design Finals without it. We went on to get second in the Endurance event and placed 5th overall. We were definitely docked points compared to the aero teams, but had the basics down. That's huge for Design preliminaries. Showing the team's progression from need to concept to design to testing and development to validation (important!) is more important than nitty gritty detail. Point being, if you can show that your parts selection is reasonable within your process, then it doesn't matter what they are.


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## MrZion (May 4, 2016)

brian_ said:


> As for the hub location...
> *advantages*: doesn't use space inboard, doesn't require axle shafts
> *disadvantages*: adds unsprung weight, restricts motor design, requires long and flexing power cables, interferes with brake mounting, restricts suspension design


Okay great, thanks for that!



coleasterling said:


> This is only somewhat true. Most of the points in FSAE come from Dynamic events. There are very, very few points given for fabrication, which is good bad bad for teams. Anyway, at the Lincoln competition, competing (and finishing) every Dynamic event is nearly guaranteed to get you into the top 10 in the electric class if the competition progresses at the pace it has the past several years (read slowly). I see zero issue with using whatever is around as long as a team has an engineering basis for it. While not hard calculations and number crunching, economics and schedule are valid engineering design considerations. If you have a motor available and it satisfies your performance requirements, then why not use it? It really depends on the weighting of your selection matrix, but I would personally rate cost and schedule very high for a first year team.
> 
> In 2012, we made finals in the Design event with one of the most simple cars at the competition. Space frame with single cylinder 450 with integral dry sump (yfz450) and NO aero. In a competition dominated by aero, we were one of only two teams to make Design Finals without it. We went on to get second in the Endurance event and placed 5th overall. We were definitely docked points compared to the aero teams, but had the basics down. That's huge for Design preliminaries. Showing the team's progression from need to concept to design to testing and development to validation (important!) is more important than nitty gritty detail. Point being, if you can show that your parts selection is reasonable within your process, then it doesn't matter what they are.


Right, that's what we are pushing for this year so it is good to hear reinforcement. I sent Motenergy an email so hopefully they will reply back soon!


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## Jbrewer106 (May 7, 2015)

I saw your post at the University of Vancouver, why didn't you make your own universal ac 3 phase motor, use a pair of common Chevy 350.main bearings and design the stator and rotor silica thin steel plates for each and use coper for the rotor and use coper 00 gauge for each phase of the stator and design your own three phase controllers. Use Auto Cad software present your design here to.the forem


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## MrZion (May 4, 2016)

Jbrewer106 said:


> I saw your post at the University of Vancouver, why didn't you make your own universal ac 3 phase motor, use a pair of common Chevy 350.main bearings and design the stator and rotor silica thin steel plates for each and use coper for the rotor and use coper 00 gauge for each phase of the stator and design your own three phase controllers. Use Auto Cad software present your design here to.the forem


University of Vancouver?

I think it would been a lot of fun to try and design a motor, but as a first year team we are trying to maximise learning as well as make a successful car, and with the amount of team members we have that would just be to much to bite off for our first race.


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## MrZion (May 4, 2016)

Thanks everyone for the comments, really do appreciate them!

What do you guys think would be a good ball park of nominal current draw for a FSAE car? We are running our system at 300V, so the max amount of current we can draw is 266A. I know this depends hugely on the motor, the weight, driving style, etc., but If you were to give a ballpark based on experience what would you say other teams or your team nominally saw? 150A's?


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## AdamToth (Jun 17, 2018)

Hi MrZion

Did you find a suitable controller for the drivetrain?


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