# [EVDL] SRJC student's Focus-conversion-EV burned to its metal frame



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

yeah... doesn't sound like any common lead acid batteries I know of... but
lithium... yes...

On Sun, Mar 20, 2011 at 6:45 AM, Roger Heuckeroth <[email protected]>w=
rote:

> "Batteries about the size if a VCR tape"...90 of them... Sounds like
> something other than lead acid. BMS issues most likely.
>
> Sent from my iPad
>
>


> brucedp4 <[email protected]> wrote:
> >
> > >
> > > SRFD-Chief assumes its 90 batteries were the cause
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Here is a description of the project:
http://nbeaa.org/osev/sota/index.htm

Gerhard

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Yes, they used lithiums for this project. 

-----
If you don't understand, be patient, you will. Now I understand. 
--
View this message in context: http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/SRJC-student-s-Focus-conversion-EV-burned-to-its-metal-frame-tp3390927p3391146.html
Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Gee, Santa Rosa. My home town.

Bet ya the BMS used top balance shunt regulators.

Russ Kaufmann

RUSSCO

http://russcoev.com


> Yes, they used lithiums for this project.
>
> -----
> If you don't understand, be patient, you will. Now I understand. 
> --
> View this message in context:
> http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/SRJC-student-s-Focus-conversion-EV-burned-to-its-metal-frame-tp3390927p3391146.html
> Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at
> Nabble.com.
>
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>


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

>>>>Bet ya the BMS used top balance shunt regulators.<<<<

You know, I hate this comment!!

Did it even say the charger was on? A BMS top balancing if used correctly
will not create enough heat to start a fire, whereas a charger that is not
properly controlled by a BMS will. 

I would like to see some facts before Jacks follower start spouting anti BMS
conclusions. This really pi**es me off!




Sincerely,
Mark Grasser


-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf
Of [email protected]
Sent: Sunday, March 20, 2011 12:45 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] SRJC student's Focus-conversion-EV burned to its metal
frame

Gee, Santa Rosa. My home town.

Bet ya the BMS used top balance shunt regulators.

Russ Kaufmann

RUSSCO

http://russcoev.com


> Yes, they used lithiums for this project.
>
> -----
> If you don't understand, be patient, you will. Now I understand. 
> --
> View this message in context:
>
http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/SRJC-student-s-
Focus-conversion-EV-burned-to-its-metal-frame-tp3390927p3391146.html
> Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at
> Nabble.com.
>
> _______________________________________________
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>


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Sorry you feel that way, but as a manufacturer of EV chargers, I have done
extensive design, manufacturing, and testing of resistor shunt regulators.
I have determined that I would never use top balancing, let alone a
resistive shunt.

This is my opinion, yours may vary. That's all I'm going to say about this.

Top balance, bottom balance, no balance, LV slowdown, HV charger shutoff,
lithium, lead acid, flooded, AGM, Ford, Toyota, Chevy, like @%%holes,
everyone has one, I mean opinion.

Russ Kaufmann

RUSSCO

http://russcoev.com


>>>>>Bet ya the BMS used top balance shunt regulators.<<<<
>
> You know, I hate this comment!!
>
> Did it even say the charger was on? A BMS top balancing if used correctly
> will not create enough heat to start a fire, whereas a charger that is not
> properly controlled by a BMS will.
>
> I would like to see some facts before Jacks follower start spouting anti
> BMS
> conclusions. This really pi**es me off!
>
>
>
>
> Sincerely,
> Mark Grasser
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On
> Behalf
> Of [email protected]
> Sent: Sunday, March 20, 2011 12:45 PM
> To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] SRJC student's Focus-conversion-EV burned to its metal
> frame
>
> Gee, Santa Rosa. My home town.
>
> Bet ya the BMS used top balance shunt regulators.
>
> Russ Kaufmann
>
> RUSSCO
>
> http://russcoev.com
>
>
>> Yes, they used lithiums for this project.
>>
>> -----
>> If you don't understand, be patient, you will. Now I understand. 
>> --
>> View this message in context:
>>
> http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/SRJC-student-s-
> Focus-conversion-EV-burned-to-its-metal-frame-tp3390927p3391146.html
>> Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at
>> Nabble.com.
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> | REPLYING: address your message to [email protected] only.
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>> | UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
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>>
>>
>
>
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>


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Bet ya the BMS used top balance shunt regulators.

We really have no information at all on the cause of the fire. That 
makes speculation little more than gossip. Hopefully, we'll be hearing 
more about what caused the fire, so we can learn from it.

-- 
Lee A. Hart | Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave N | Forget the perfect offering
Sartell MN 56377	| There is a crack in everything
leeahart earthlink.net	| That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Russ,
What does your charger do when a top balance shunt type BMS starts to shunt
off current? If a top balance BMS is designed to max out at 5 amps then it
is imperative that the charger backs off to that 5 amp limit. Does this
happen with your chargers?

Sincerely,
Mark Grasser



-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf
Of [email protected]
Sent: Sunday, March 20, 2011 2:57 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] SRJC student's Focus-conversion-EV burned to its metal
frame

Sorry you feel that way, but as a manufacturer of EV chargers, I have done
extensive design, manufacturing, and testing of resistor shunt regulators.
I have determined that I would never use top balancing, let alone a
resistive shunt.

This is my opinion, yours may vary. That's all I'm going to say about this.

Top balance, bottom balance, no balance, LV slowdown, HV charger shutoff,
lithium, lead acid, flooded, AGM, Ford, Toyota, Chevy, like @%%holes,
everyone has one, I mean opinion.

Russ Kaufmann

RUSSCO

http://russcoev.com


>>>>>Bet ya the BMS used top balance shunt regulators.<<<<
>
> You know, I hate this comment!!
>
> Did it even say the charger was on? A BMS top balancing if used correctly
> will not create enough heat to start a fire, whereas a charger that is not
> properly controlled by a BMS will.
>
> I would like to see some facts before Jacks follower start spouting anti
> BMS
> conclusions. This really pi**es me off!
>
>
>
>
> Sincerely,
> Mark Grasser
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On
> Behalf
> Of [email protected]
> Sent: Sunday, March 20, 2011 12:45 PM
> To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] SRJC student's Focus-conversion-EV burned to its metal
> frame
>
> Gee, Santa Rosa. My home town.
>
> Bet ya the BMS used top balance shunt regulators.
>
> Russ Kaufmann
>
> RUSSCO
>
> http://russcoev.com
>
>
>> Yes, they used lithiums for this project.
>>
>> -----
>> If you don't understand, be patient, you will. Now I understand. 
>> --
>> View this message in context:
>>
>
http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/SRJC-student-s-
> Focus-conversion-EV-burned-to-its-metal-frame-tp3390927p3391146.html
>> Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at
>> Nabble.com.
>>
>> _______________________________________________
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>>
>
>
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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

In the specs for the car they list a BRUSA NLG5 CHARGER. Don't know if they
ended up using it or not. I don't know if the Brusa chargers have an input
for cutback from the BMS.

IT is imperative that if you use top balancing that the BMS send a signal to
the charger to limit the charger to the same or less current then the shunt.
This is simple design logic and yet I don't see it used, I find it amazing
that the BMS manufacturers don't collaborate with the charger companies to
accomplish this.!!



Sincerely,
Mark Grasser



-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf
Of [email protected]
Sent: Sunday, March 20, 2011 2:57 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] SRJC student's Focus-conversion-EV burned to its metal
frame

Sorry you feel that way, but as a manufacturer of EV chargers, I have done
extensive design, manufacturing, and testing of resistor shunt regulators.
I have determined that I would never use top balancing, let alone a
resistive shunt.

This is my opinion, yours may vary. That's all I'm going to say about this.

Top balance, bottom balance, no balance, LV slowdown, HV charger shutoff,
lithium, lead acid, flooded, AGM, Ford, Toyota, Chevy, like @%%holes,
everyone has one, I mean opinion.

Russ Kaufmann

RUSSCO

http://russcoev.com


>>>>>Bet ya the BMS used top balance shunt regulators.<<<<
>
> You know, I hate this comment!!
>
> Did it even say the charger was on? A BMS top balancing if used correctly
> will not create enough heat to start a fire, whereas a charger that is not
> properly controlled by a BMS will.
>
> I would like to see some facts before Jacks follower start spouting anti
> BMS
> conclusions. This really pi**es me off!
>
>
>
>
> Sincerely,
> Mark Grasser
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On
> Behalf
> Of [email protected]
> Sent: Sunday, March 20, 2011 12:45 PM
> To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] SRJC student's Focus-conversion-EV burned to its metal
> frame
>
> Gee, Santa Rosa. My home town.
>
> Bet ya the BMS used top balance shunt regulators.
>
> Russ Kaufmann
>
> RUSSCO
>
> http://russcoev.com
>
>
>> Yes, they used lithiums for this project.
>>
>> -----
>> If you don't understand, be patient, you will. Now I understand. 
>> --
>> View this message in context:
>>
>
http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/SRJC-student-s-
> Focus-conversion-EV-burned-to-its-metal-frame-tp3390927p3391146.html
>> Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at
>> Nabble.com.
>>
>> _______________________________________________
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>>
>>
>
>
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>


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

There is one thing that can be said for sure. Not a singe electric vehicle
fire has been without a BMS system. One for sure was controlling the BRUSA.
It is not hard to come up with an educated guess that the problems lie in
the controlling systems added to PROTECT the cells and control the chargers.
It does not take a rocket scientist to figure this one out. But to be sure
so every one is clear you will have to ask the folks who built it. 

Pete 

How many will it take before people will get it.

-----
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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

>>>>There is one thing that can be said for sure. Not a single electric
vehicle
fire has been without a BMS system<<<<

You can say this? Seriously? 

Facts, Data and facts! Show me!!!

This is an absurd comment!




Sincerely,
Mark Grasser



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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

>>>>There is one thing that can be said for sure. Not a single electric
vehicle
fire has been without a BMS system<<<<

Well unless you're saying that 100% of EV builders know how important it is
to have one. 


Mark





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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

I had a small fire in my EV and had no BMS. I didn't even have my Zener regs
on at the time.

Peter Flipsen Jr


> "Peter C. Thompson" <[email protected]> wrote:
> >
> > Since this seems to be a rather "hot" topic, I ask that the participants
> > please provide citations to back up their positions. Should be easy
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Found this at the link given:

Traction Batteries: 90 Thunder Sky LFP-60AHA LiFePO4 cells
Link to datasheet: www.thunder-sky.com/pdf/TS-LFP60.pdf
Picture of single cell:

Battery management system: Elithion Lithiumate
Link to web site: liionbms.com/php/liionbms.php

Link to website: www.metricmind.com
- Charger and cables:Brusa NLG513-SC


Doesn't mean the bms was the cause of the fire though. We don't even know
if it was charging at the time. Lot of info on their website including
detailed schematics. The upper left of the main schematic shows a bms with
CAN high/low outputs. The lower left detail of section D shows connections
for a "custom charger." Really sad, looked like a nice car, and was almost
complete. They put in a lot of work with many custom circuits. 




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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

So then what burned? What caused the fire? Was it a bad connection?
Overcharged and got hot and burned? LiFePo4 cells or some other chemistry
that is not stable like LiFePo4 cells? I understand about not wanting to
reveal the problem but all the vehicles that burnt to the ground HAVE had
BMS systems. It may have not been the BMS directly but even a crappy
connection or maybe the students were too eager and did charging unattended
putting to much faith in the system before enough testing could be done to
be sure it was safe to leave unattended. There are lots of things but one
thing is for sure. All these setups have been very complex and for each
complexity there is room for failure. Pushing the limits? Maybe. Just a bad
connection somewhere that shorted out and started the fire that had nothing
to do with the batteries or BMS system. Could be. 

So we know they used: LiFePo4 cells, BMS, Brusa, the fire happened during an
unattended time (pretty easy to deduct that it was charging as they were
going to test it on Saturday. Oooops). 

So with positive proof of these items it is fair to conclude they were
charging with an operational BMS and connected to a Brusa Charger controlled
by the BMS. 

Mmmmmmm. Batteries? Hardly. Pretty much ash at this point. They might say
its the extension cord too. 



-----
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--
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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

So then what burned? What caused the fire? Was it a bad connection?
Overcharged and got hot and burned? LiFePo4 cells or some other chemistry
that is not stable like LiFePo4 cells? I understand about not wanting to
reveal the problem but all the vehicles that burnt to the ground HAVE had
BMS systems. It may have not been the BMS directly but even a crappy
connection or maybe the students were too eager and did charging unattended
putting to much faith in the system before enough testing could be done to
be sure it was safe to leave unattended. There are lots of things but one
thing is for sure. All these setups have been very complex and for each
complexity there is room for failure. Pushing the limits? Maybe. Just a bad
connection somewhere that shorted out and started the fire that had nothing
to do with the batteries or BMS system. Could be. 

So we know they used: LiFePo4 cells, BMS, Brusa, the fire happened during an
unattended time (pretty easy to deduct that it was charging as they were
going to test it on Saturday. Oooops). 

So with positive proof of these items it is fair to conclude they were
charging with an operational BMS and connected to a Brusa Charger controlled
by the BMS. 

Mmmmmmm. Batteries? Hardly. Pretty much ash at this point. They might say
its the extension cord too. 



-----
If you don't understand, be patient, you will. Now I understand. 
--
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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

So then what burned? What caused the fire? Was it a bad connection?
Overcharged and got hot and burned? LiFePo4 cells or some other chemistry
that is not stable like LiFePo4 cells? I understand about not wanting to
reveal the problem but all the vehicles that burnt to the ground HAVE had
BMS systems. It may have not been the BMS directly but even a crappy
connection or maybe the students were too eager and did charging unattended
putting to much faith in the system before enough testing could be done to
be sure it was safe to leave unattended. There are lots of things but one
thing is for sure. All these setups have been very complex and for each
complexity there is room for failure. Pushing the limits? Maybe. Just a bad
connection somewhere that shorted out and started the fire that had nothing
to do with the batteries or BMS system. Could be. 

So we know they used: LiFePo4 cells, BMS, Brusa, the fire happened during an
unattended time (pretty easy to deduct that it was charging as they were
going to test it on Saturday. Oooops). 

So with positive proof of these items it is fair to conclude they were
charging with an operational BMS and connected to a Brusa Charger controlled
by the BMS. 

Mmmmmmm. Batteries? Hardly. Pretty much ash at this point. They might say
its the extension cord too. 



-----
If you don't understand, be patient, you will. Now I understand. 
--
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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Hey, folks, as the guys in the Dick Tracy cartoon used to say, 
hooooooolllllld everything! 

I'm going to reinforce (say LOUDER if you like) what Lee said.

Almost everything that's been written here is speculative. And not just 
here; the news item Bruce posted quotes the Santa Rosa acting deputy fire 
chief : "Most likely it had to do with the batteries or the wiring." That's 
pure speculation too, not the findings of a proper investigation. 

The "facts" we have are pretty meager. 

= The car burned.

= Some kind of liquid was produced at the scene. we don't know whether it 
was released before or during the fire, or what part it may have played. 
However, the fire fighters were concerned enough about the nature and 
quantity of it that they called in a spill cleanup crew.

= The batteries are described as being about the size of a video cassette, 
which might suggest some kinds of lithium cells - but we don't know for 
sure.

= Website documentation describes the battery, charger, and BMS that had 
been purchased for the EV. However, we don't know which of these items, if 
any, had been installed properly (or at all).

Please, let's stay cool (oops, sorry) until we actually KNOW something. I 
don't mean to offend anybody, but much of what I'm reading here sounds a lot 
like "I believe." Now, if you're going to church, belief is just the thing. 
But for building EVs, knowledge is more useful. Let's wait until we have 
some more of the latter before we try to figure out what went wrong.

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

There are other JC's and University EV conversion course newswire 
pieces showing me SRJC is not alone in offering courses to learn more
about EVs. Some of those pieces are just not worthy to post. There has
to be something to offer: interesting vehicle, project, situation, 
and or something we can learn from.

I chose to post this sad tragedy in the hopes of the later, that 
something can be learned, and the cause disseminated so other similar
'EV courses' do not replicate.

Except for a few evdl members' posts that raised the ire of others, I 
feel once the actual details become clear, we will be able to discuss 
this topic in a better more constructive way.

I hope there are North SF Bay EAA members and or local EV'rs that 
would be willing to stay on top of this, and post to the evdl.org the 
investigation's determination of the cause.

Here are some contacts for them to follow up on and ask what those 
details are:

[email protected]
CATHY BUSSEWITZ, Press-Democrat Reporter (that did this piece)

[email protected]
Clifford Norton, SRJC Automotive-Instructor (mentioned in the piece)

As previously posted by another evdl.org member: 
http://nbeaa.org/osev/sota/
On the bottom of that page it states:
"Chris Jones at [email protected] if you are interested in
more information, or would like to help out with this effort."

Chris should also be contacted to see what he can find out.



Clearly we need the facts so we can disseminate how to prevent this 
sad tragedy from happening again.


{brucedp.150m.com}

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Oh no! Not the anti Vs pro BMS thing again! Mark (and others before 
you start) you should be used to this by now.

What is glaringly obviously missing from their budget spreadsheet is 
any sort of alarm.

'Canbus charger'....?

A great shame as it was looking to be a lovely job.

I think I'll add a bit to my carputer to send me an email every 10 
minutes or so with a status report. At least then if the worst 
happens I'll have an off-board record of what led up to it.

Regards, Martin Winlow
Herts, UK
http://www.evalbum.com/2092
www.winlow.co.uk




> Mark Grasser wrote:
> 
> >>>>> Bet ya the BMS used top balance shunt regulators.<<<<
> >
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Martin,
No I won't take this anywhere. Not on this list. Civilization exists over
here.

Sincerely,
Mark Grasser


-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf
Of Martin WINLOW
Sent: Monday, March 21, 2011 10:07 AM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] SRJC student's Focus-conversion-EV burned to its metal
frame

Oh no! Not the anti Vs pro BMS thing again! Mark (and others before 
you start) you should be used to this by now.

What is glaringly obviously missing from their budget spreadsheet is 
any sort of alarm.

'Canbus charger'....?

A great shame as it was looking to be a lovely job.

I think I'll add a bit to my carputer to send me an email every 10 
minutes or so with a status report. At least then if the worst 
happens I'll have an off-board record of what led up to it.

Regards, Martin Winlow
Herts, UK
http://www.evalbum.com/2092
www.winlow.co.uk




> Mark Grasser wrote:
> 
> >>>>> Bet ya the BMS used top balance shunt regulators.<<<<
> >
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

I am the instructor of the EV class at the SRJC. This project was
done outside of the normal class functions and I was not actually
involved with the planning, construction or build.

That said I am aware of the circumstances surrounding the fire, I just
came from a detailed inspection tour.

These things are known:

The vehicle was NEVER charged. The charger was installed but was not
functional. It was NOT plugged in at the time of the fire.

The BMS was partially installed, but there was no interface between
the charger or the controller.

The 12 volt accessory battery was not installed in the vehicle at the
time of the fire.

The vehicle was NOT ready for a test drive as the cells were not
brought up to proper charge.

We know a lot, but we do not know what caused the fire. I just
started looking into the matter this AM, about 11:00AM CA time.

I will keep all of you posted and provide the results, when we have a
clear picture. In the meantime ALL of you who blamed the BMS, the
Charger or anything are wrong at this time.

We just started gathering information about who had recently worked on
the car and what they did. When I know you will know. In the mean
time give us a few days, this is very unfortunate for all of us
involved with the program.

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

For those who would jump to conclusions, it is better to be thought of
as a fool then to open your mouth and remove all doubt.

This is a very unfortunate accident for the community. Blaming a BMS
or lack thereof will help no one. And it won't even prove your point
if you, well, cannot prove it.

We should just wait for the investigation as to the cause. It may be
that something was done wrong which you could actually learn from and
not repeat the mistake. .... or it could be a sabotage from someone
in the oil business. Right now that seems more likely than the "BMS
is the cause" argument ;-P

Mike




> Peter Oliver <[email protected]> wrote:
> > I am the instructor of the EV class at the SRJC. This project was
> > done outside of the normal class functions and I was not actually
> > involved with the planning, construction or build.
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

>For those who would jump to conclusions, it is better to be thought of>as a fool 
>then to open your mouth and remove all doubt.
The best analysis of the situation yet!
Thanks for your expert opinion Mike 
P.S. That's a compliment, always admire your logic Mike!



----- Original Message ----
From: Mike Willmon <[email protected]>
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <[email protected]>
Sent: Mon, March 21, 2011 5:18:51 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] SRJC student's Focus-conversion-EV burned to its metal frame

For those who would jump to conclusions, it is better to be thought of
as a fool then to open your mouth and remove all doubt.

This is a very unfortunate accident for the community. Blaming a BMS
or lack thereof will help no one. And it won't even prove your point
if you, well, cannot prove it.

We should just wait for the investigation as to the cause. It may be
that something was done wrong which you could actually learn from and
not repeat the mistake. .... or it could be a sabotage from someone
in the oil business. Right now that seems more likely than the "BMS
is the cause" argument ;-P

Mike




> Peter Oliver <[email protected]> wrote:
> > I am the instructor of the EV class at the SRJC. This project was
> > done outside of the normal class functions and I was not actually
> > involved with the planning, construction or build.
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Its not hard to see that all the recent fires that have resulted in total
destruction do have a common factor and it is not hard to deduct that there
was an active process happening during the unattended time frame when the
cars burned. One thing for sure is that all the cars were unattended. My car
sits unattended with lithium cells installed and since there is no active
processes happening there is no discharge of my cells and there has been no
fires either or even any electrical component getting or even warm while
sitting. Something was happening and no matter what Pete Oliver said or what
the reporters said some active process was happening. That is pretty easy to
conclude that the car was charging. Pete was not there nor was he involved
directly. He was only told what someone else said. I find it very hard to
believe that the car just burst into flame on its own with no active process
happening. Something was ON. Someone is not being forthcoming. So
circumstantial evidence from what we know from all the fires like this one
it is not hard to conclude that the car did have a BMS system installed and
that the charger was ON. It is not a willy nilly observation and it is quite
conclusive. 

There is no argument. There is a problem and it is COMMON to ALL the fires
that have occurred in the past couple years. 

Also the fires being talked about are the ones where they were left
unattended and using lithium cells. Not cars at the race track bustin the
limits of the batteries and motors and controllers nor the EV's that are
lead acid. 


Pete 

Sorry that you don't agree but it is no longer a coincidence. It is no
longer a small stupid mistake. There is a common factor. BMS or some other
common factor but the problem is there. So we say BMS it brings to focus
that a problem exists and it is easy to see that something is amiss. 

With cars reduced to ash what do you do? Just toss your hands up or draw
conclusions from past fires of similar circumstances. You must trouble shoot
the issue. And all you have is a pile of ash and someones word. I prefer to
look at the evidence and not the words. People do lie to cover up problems.
That is quite likely just as it is easy to draw the conclusion that power
was ON. 



-----
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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Of course, it is absolutely impossible that there might have been some 
welding done just prior to the event. Nobody could have left a soldering 
iron or drop light on. Experts absolutely know it had to be the lithiums or 
B M S. Nothing else ever causes a fire. NEVER 

Connected by DROID on Verizon Wireless

-----Original message-----
From: gottdi <[email protected]>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Tue, Mar 22, 2011 01:57:49 GMT+00:00
Subject: Re: [EVDL] SRJC student's Focus-conversion-EV burned to its metal 
frame

Its not hard to see that all the recent fires that have resulted in total
destruction do have a common factor and it is not hard to deduct that there
was an active process happening during the unattended time frame when the
cars burned. One thing for sure is that all the cars were unattended. My car
sits unattended with lithium cells installed and since there is no active
processes happening there is no discharge of my cells and there has been no
fires either or even any electrical component getting or even warm while
sitting. Something was happening and no matter what Pete Oliver said or what
the reporters said some active process was happening. That is pretty easy to
conclude that the car was charging. Pete was not there nor was he involved
directly. He was only told what someone else said. I find it very hard to
believe that the car just burst into flame on its own with no active process
happening. Something was ON. Someone is not being forthcoming. So
circumstantial evidence from what we know from all the fires like this one
it is not hard to conclude that the car did have a BMS system installed and
that the charger was ON. It is not a willy nilly observation and it is quite
conclusive. 

There is no argument. There is a problem and it is COMMON to ALL the fires
that have occurred in the past couple years. 

Also the fires being talked about are the ones where they were left
unattended and using lithium cells. Not cars at the race track bustin the
limits of the batteries and motors and controllers nor the EV's that are
lead acid. 


Pete 

Sorry that you don't agree but it is no longer a coincidence. It is no
longer a small stupid mistake. There is a common factor. BMS or some other
common factor but the problem is there. So we say BMS it brings to focus
that a problem exists and it is easy to see that something is amiss. 

With cars reduced to ash what do you do? Just toss your hands up or draw
conclusions from past fires of similar circumstances. You must trouble shoot
the issue. And all you have is a pile of ash and someones word. I prefer to
look at the evidence and not the words. People do lie to cover up problems.
That is quite likely just as it is easy to draw the conclusion that power
was ON. 



-----
If you don't understand, be patient, you will. Now I understand. 
--
View this message in context: 
http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/SRJC-student-s-F 
ocus-conversion-EV-burned-to-its-metal-frame-tp3390927p3395280.html
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Nabble.com.

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Yes but just like you said you like to make decisions based on facts,
there are not yet enough now for you to draw that conclusion. It may
be just as likely that a wrench or a screw driver accidentally
dropped into the battery box or that someone with a vendetta came in
and crowbarred a cell. Or like you speculate maybe someone was in the
process of hooking up the charger and accidentally left it on before
being fully tested or checked. For me the blame of "BMS causes fires"
is extremely premature. I knowt you could go find many more accounts
of lead acid cars with no BMS catching on fire as well. I've had
BMS's on and off my truck, and in no case either with or without have
I burned my truck down, not even once. There are plenty of Lithium
powered cars too with and without BMS' that haven't burned the car
down either. So without further detail and investigation which we
were told has just now begun I think its a little premature to point
to a conclusion that BMS' cause fires.

Mike



> gottdi <[email protected]> wrote:
> > Its not hard to see that all the recent fires that have resulted in total
> > destruction do have a common factor and it is not hard to deduct that there
> > was an active process happening during the unattended time frame when the
> ...


----------

