# Clutch or Clutchless ?? VW Bug..



## piotrsko (Dec 9, 2007)

i suppose the decision mostly rests on whether you are the only driver or not. It appears that you can get by without the clutch, but if my wife drove it, she'd destroy the tranny in about 3 or 4 shifts, if she ever left the driveway. there is a series of posts dealing with clutchless operations, and eitscher has a mod for making the motor live happily with the syncros.

some of the aftermarket trans have beefed up components for racing. and R&R of the transaxle takes about a day.


----------



## Bfalken (Apr 29, 2009)

timmac said:


> More questions about my soon to be conversion on my 67 Bug, is it better to keep the clutch or not ?, I can drive my bug now with ICE and shift to 2nd, 3rd and 4th without clutch at speeds above 20 mph without any problems, will this cause trans problems down the road without clutch or is it ok long term, is there less drag on electric motor without clutch, for those of you that have gone clutchless do you wish you have kept the clutch instead, any info would be great for my decision.


I went with the clutch for a couple if reasons. the main one is that later when your planning your wiring and controls your going to have to decide what you will use for a emergency disconnect in the event of a run away situation. With a clutch you can stamp on the clutch and brake to avoid the lady pushing the baby carriage. Your motor will be toast but... The other reason I decided to use a clutch is my VW transmission is 40 years old and the syncros are already worn out from the ICE. There is no more drag with a clutch, the only difference is the weight of the flywheel and pressure plate.


----------



## Guest (Mar 2, 2010)

Go with the clutch and enjoy shifting. The VW transmission is not the best for doing clutchless but you can. It is good for someone that does not know how to shift without a clutch and in an emergency it would be good for anyone that can drive a clutch vehicle to be able to drive it. The other issue is quick disconnect. My issue is the transmission is not the best for clutchless shifting. One more thing. The argument about the flywheel vs no flywheel is moot unless you really need that extra 1/100th of a second time for a 1/4 mile race. On a street driven EV the little extra weight of the flywheel will not be noticed. 

So for all street driven EV's the flywheel will make no difference and having the clutch will make for easier shifting. I have said before, just because you can does not mean you should. So many say you CAN go clutchless and many have but it does not mean you SHOULD. Weigh the issues yourself and then make your own decision. 

Pete


----------



## Thaniel (May 25, 2008)

Bfalken said:


> I went with the clutch for a couple if reasons. the main one is that later when your planning your wiring and controls your going to have to decide what you will use for a emergency disconnect in the event of a run away situation. With a clutch you can stamp on the clutch and brake to avoid the lady pushing the baby carriage. Your motor will be toast but...


Same here. Piece of mind. 

Also I let someone else drive my EV the other day and they kept using the clutch when starting and stopping like they would in a normal car (which isn't necessary) but it made their transition to EV driving much easier. No missed shifts or ground gears. Oh and they never stalled it once


----------



## INCONCEIVABLE (Feb 19, 2008)

I've driven my renault lecar for 3 years clutchless. It's simple, more like driving an automatic. 0-25 mph 2nd gear. 25-55 mph 3rd gear. 1st gear only for slow steep hills. You don't have to run up and down the gears all the time like with an ICE. It does however take about a second for the syncro to sinc up, so for racing you would want to keep the clutch.

I chose to build my new Formula EVee which uses a VW transaxle, without a clutch.

1 vote for clutchless.
Eric.


----------



## Guest (Mar 3, 2010)

He did not ask about Renault but VW. The VW transaxle is not the best for shifting clutchless. Other cars do just fine but I'd recommend to anyone to use the clutch. It is just easier and the clutch is for a purpose. The extra weight of the flywheel on a street car is negligible so you really don't need to worry about that. Many just do the clutchless because of price alone. Shifting with out a clutch sucks. I do try it from time to time but the VW is just not very responsive to shifting clutchless. 

Pete


----------



## INCONCEIVABLE (Feb 19, 2008)

I've only driven my new VW based car about 15 test miles so far. It seems to shift easily, the same as my Lecar. 
The other concern of controller runaway is real. I personally know at least one person its happened to. Depressing a clutch would be a quick escape from danger.
I'm currently waiting for a zilla which isn't supposed to have that problem.

Eric.


----------



## Guest (Mar 3, 2010)

If the controller were really the issue of runaway then flipping the contactor switch would be all you need to shut down. The usual issue is the contactors welding together too. So it is from what I gather a double issue and any electronic component can fail, even the zilla. It is just that the zilla is so robust that none have yet to fail. Some day some of them will when they are real old. If you build with a controller that is too small for your needs and you are constantly taking it to the thresh hold of its abilities then your controller will more than likely fail much sooner. I am building a safety switch contactor for the main contactor if my controller fails but if the contactor fails I depress my clutch. 

Pete 

I still say go with a clutch. Not clutchless.


----------



## Bfalken (Apr 29, 2009)

gottdi said:


> The usual issue is the contactors welding together too. So it is from what I gather a double issue and any electronic component can fail, even the zilla


Not to mention a failure in the control pot or the cable / linkage connected to it. I bet there's at least a few Toyota owners wishing they had a manual transmission. 

Bob


----------



## INCONCEIVABLE (Feb 19, 2008)

My new clutchless Formula EVee has multiple safeties.
1st a circuit breaker on left console.
2nd two 400 amp fuses on battery cables, I would think holding the brakes hard would blow one of those although I've never tried.
3rd the "ignition switch" contactor is rated at breaking 2000 amps.
4th pop the tranny into neutral.

All can fail as easily as a clutch cable. I've broken at least 2 in my 29 years of driving.

I don't understand why a toyota driver has time to make a 911 call, but not enough common sense to turn the ignition off or put car into neutral! Candidate for a Darwin award?
I know what your thinking, gottdi, I'm a candidate too!

Eric.


----------



## Guest (Mar 4, 2010)

I would not say that a clutch cable is easy to bust. Two busted ones? Ouch. Rough on those cables. Anyway I'd say you have issues with positioning of the cables to bust one. Wear fatigue I'd say. Anyway that looks pretty cool. Got the direct link to the EVDL album? Got a web site to see more? With a vehicle like that I'd say you might get away with clutchless because you are not driving every day on the street and you are a dedicated driver that can learn the techniques for proper gear delivery. I'd still use the clutch. Way easier than learning all over again to shift a car smoothly and precisely. How smoothly and precisely and quickly can you shift with out missing a shift with out the clutch? 

Like the car. Got a body for it too? 

Pete 

What are the specs?


----------



## Guest (Mar 4, 2010)

Never mind. Found it on EVDL. You need a web site to give us updates on the build and some video driving it. 

Pete


----------



## INCONCEIVABLE (Feb 19, 2008)

Yes, wear/fatigue is a killer of all components even something as beefy and simple as a clutch cable. There is a tremendous force applied every push of the pedal.

As stated above, if I were racing or required a normal fast shift I would recommend a clutch. Although my car looks a bit like a race car, I didn't plan on racing it. I liked the ease of driving my "unmentionable" lecar for the last 3 years so I went clutchless on my Formula EVee.

As far as shifting goes, the only time it grinds is when I missed first to second gear on my new Formula EVee and tried a little reverse! I have fixed that now with a reverse lockout mechanism.
For a normal up shift lift foot from accelerator, move shifter and hold slight pressure to desired gear and after about 1 second it sincs up and you feel the stick pop into gear (no grinding), reapply on accelerator pedal.
Down shifting is a little slower to sinc, but with no motor compression what's the point. Maybe only when climbing a hill and need a lower gear. Perhaps revving the motor would make quicker downshifs, I never tried revving it.

I found not a lot of shifting required in my "unmentionable" car. It was usually in either 2nd or 3rd gear. Most starts in 2nd gear, stick it in 3rd if/when accelerating past about 25mph.
That car would max out at about 55mph in 3rd but I rarely went over 45mph on my local roads. I do have one really steep residential neighborhood hill on the way to work I use 1st gear going up @ about 15mph. I've been up that hill once in my not yet licensed formula evee
I think I was in 2nd and it did ok even at its current low 72v setup. I can't wait till 144v and zilla!

Sorry Pete, No website just pages. Not that computer savvy. I'm better with a hammer than a keyboard.

http://www.evalbum.com/2559 
and http://www.diyelectriccar.com/garage/cars/239 

Eric.


----------



## illuminateddan (Dec 19, 2009)

Hi,

I'm in the middle of a conversion of a 64 beetle, and I'll be going with a clutch because the mechanism is simple and the adaptor plate is relatively easy. It's a good idea to find an engineer who's made the adaptor 'top hat' and fly wheel before. There are loads of beetles in the ev almbum, a particularly good on is Travdudes, and he's got a great picture here... http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/album.php?albumid=78&pictureid=345
and his garage page is here... http://www.diyelectriccar.com/garage/cars/240 . Ask around the other electric bug owners to find a friendly engineer...

Good luck!


----------



## Guest (Mar 5, 2010)

Ouch, sorry to read about your mega restoration on that beetle. That is a lot of work to do. Volkswagen is an excellent platform to convert. I am going out to get my Notch here in a few minutes. This will be replacing my Ghia. We are just going to swap the components first then we will upgrade and we will be doing some restoration work to the Notch. That will come later. 

Pete


----------



## illuminateddan (Dec 19, 2009)

gottdi said:


> Ouch, sorry to read about your mega restoration on that beetle. That is a lot of work to do.
> 
> Pete


Thanks Pete,

On the plus side I'm learning a lot about the car and have the opportunity to take the beetle back to "as new" condition.  I'm feeling a lot more positive now that I've got new heater channels, front clip, valance and framehead!!!
Can't wait to get started on the actual conversion, or would that be fresh build?
Dan


----------



## Guest (Mar 5, 2010)

Notch is now home.


----------



## electrichew84 (Mar 2, 2010)

im just throwing this out there and not sure on the names of the parts but some manual transmissions, on the part that slides across the shaft putting that gear into drive, some have a setup where it matches the speeds before ingaging this is why some people say they dont have problems shifting or hearing that grinding noise so find a transimission with this setup and you wont need a clutch and you can shift like normal.


----------



## Guest (Mar 6, 2010)

electrichew84 said:


> im just throwing this out there and not sure on the names of the parts but some manual transmissions, on the part that slides across the shaft putting that gear into drive, some have a setup where it matches the speeds before ingaging this is why some people say they dont have problems shifting or hearing that grinding noise so find a transimission with this setup and you wont need a clutch and you can shift like normal.



Well some are trying to come up with a setup like your talking about. Mostly it is just wait until your motor speed is right for shifting. Some just jam the gears in and say that is fine. Actually it is not. Killing your trans and such and say clutchless is fine is bogus. Some actually can shift pretty well but many older tranny setups just don't shift so well. If you only use like two gears and it shifts OK with out a clutch then that is not so bad. The old VW really should have one. I use all my gears and really need that ability to shift quickly and efficiently. Best when in traffic too. No one gets pissed at me. I also don't need or want to learn to shift without a clutch. It is far easier to use one. Simple and Sweet. The transmission was designed to shift with a clutch. I still keep trying to shift clutchless and still can't without just jamming it into gear. I don't like that. Speed matching is not as easy as some make it out to be. 

Go with the clutch. Easy and you don't have to relearn of skip a beat while out driving. I rather much enjoy driving. I don't like working at it. I want to enjoy my outing. 

Pete


----------



## INCONCEIVABLE (Feb 19, 2008)

The device electrichew84 is referring to is the syncro ring. The syncro uses friction to match the speed of the drive dog and gear before engaging.

Gottdi, I believe having the spinning mass of the flywheel/clutch attached to your motor is to much for the syncros in your transmission to overcome. Without all that spinning mass my '68 VW transaxle shifts fine, no grinding, no jamming, no special technique to learn. Just allow the syncro about 1 second to do its job.

Eric.


----------



## Guest (Mar 6, 2010)

A lot can happen in 1 second. I traffic you need to keep moving. Sure, I can shift too if I wait and time the speed but it is not always easy to hear and most of the time I don't have the time and frankly I like to be safe. The mass is no different than with the gas engine. I don't over rev my electric motor. Even with the gas engine, when you depress the clutch every thing is freewheeling anyway.

Go with the clutch. Some day you will want it and you don't have to relearn to shift without it and you can shift quickly with it when needed. 

Just because you can does not mean you should 

Pete


----------



## Travdude (May 11, 2009)

I went with a clutch and I am glad I did.

I use everything but 1st gear. It is easier to drive when you can shift without thinking about it.

A good example is when you are coming up to a red light in 4th gear and you slow to almost a stop but then the light turns green and you have to downshift to get going again.

Hey Pete, I love that Notchback!


----------



## maxvtol (Nov 11, 2009)

INCONCEIVABLE said:


> Gottdi, I believe having the spinning mass of the flywheel/clutch attached to your motor is to much for the syncros in your transmission to overcome.


With the clutch, the syncros only have to overcome the clutch disc if your using your clutch which is maybe a couple of pounds, not the flywheel. That's why you can shift faster with a clutch. You have the potential to will wear out your syncros faster without a clutch because the motor armature is much heavier than the clutch disc.


----------



## vpoppv (Jul 27, 2009)

My car is a 94 Geo Metro, commuting every day since October. No regrets from going clutchless.


----------



## Guest (Mar 7, 2010)

You happen to have one of the better transmissions that will make it easier. Not all will be so easy. Glad to hear you have one. But I bet you will come upon a situation you really wished you had one. But some won't need to worry. I must jump on the freeway to do any driving and that requires quick acceleration and shifting to get to speed and not cause any unsafe issues on the freeway. I also drive in traffic that has lots of people that drive quickly and I need to again keep up and even if I shift once I want it to be quick. Not some slow methodical shift. I can do that but I have chosen not to go that route. It really pisses some folks off and I would not want to be in his shoes waiting for someone to shift to the next gear. Jeeze, Would you? I can't stand slowpokes in traffic. I don't want to be one either. Makes a bad name for electrics. I at least am trying to get folks to know we are not glorified golf carts. Get in an get moving is what I do. Pedal to the metal and let er rip. Well sort of. I at least dont hold up anyone or make slow shifts with folks behind me. I practice clutchless shifting but only on a clear road. 

Keep moving forward. I need at least 3 gears for the freeway and frequently use all 4 and 2 or 3 for in town driving. I need a clutch. Not all will. Personal choice and that is that. You decide what is good for you. If you go clutchless, good luck learning the proper shifting and hope you can do it quickly in traffic. No traffic no problem.


----------



## Guest (Mar 7, 2010)

Hey thanks, I like the Notch too.


----------

