# High torque direct drive motor (PM industrial drive motors)



## boekel (Nov 10, 2010)

This particular motor was only used for 25 hours as a generator in a test environment.











This is the 300 rpm version, I think the only difference with the 600 rpm version is a series / parallel connection of windings.

I have an 135 kvA ABB ACS800 industrial drive which should be able to drive this motor with the right firmware, although ABB can't guarantee it will work as its not an ABB motor.

[edit]
Ow...maximum torque at 0 RPM: 6200 Nm (@ 500A...)


----------



## muffildy (Oct 11, 2011)

unless im reading the wrong line,
according to this:
http://boekel.nu/files/baumuller/DST2 135-400 englisch 01_13_Web.pdf
That motor weighs: solid shaft 605kg hollow shaft 559kg thrust bearing 785kg
So, unless your building a monster truck i cant see how using this is a good idea; it would likely be too heavy for most car frames.


----------



## boekel (Nov 10, 2010)

muffildy said:


> it would likely be too heavy for most car frames.


It's for a boat


----------



## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

Hi Boekel

How big a prop can you fit on your boat?
That monster looks like the sort of thing that would drive a ship propeller

Seriously
The most efficient prop is the biggest - but a prop that will absorb that torque at those Rpm's is a monster


----------



## boekel (Nov 10, 2010)

Duncan said:


> Hi Boekel
> 
> How big a prop can you fit on your boat?
> That monster looks like the sort of thing that would drive a ship propeller
> ...











http://boekel.nu/foto/11/2011-11boot/image17.htm









http://boekel.nu/foto/11/2012-04boot/image44.htm

I now have a 32" x 15" wich does about 1200 Nm @ 500 rpm
I also have a 34" x 21" prop and will let the pitch increase to 24 or 25" then It should increase to above 2000 Nm (not shure, still working that out with a prop-specialist)


----------



## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

At 500rpm
Your 15 inch is 3.17m/sec - 11kph
And your 25 inch is 5.28m/sec - 19kph

Don't know how much "slip" is optimum

What is your hull speed? - both of the above seem a bit fast to me

Maybe you should be looking for an even bigger prop with less pitch


----------



## boekel (Nov 10, 2010)

Hull speed is 22 km/h

At the moment I reach 13 km/h @ 600 rpm @ 60 kW
(I measured the torque while stationary, then 60 kW = 500 rpm)

I hope to reach 15-16 km/h with about 90 kW

(This topic was ment for the motor btw...wandering off...)


----------



## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

boekel said:


> ...This is the 300 rpm version, I think the only difference with the 600 rpm version is a series / parallel connection of windings....


For PM or induction AC motors the base speed is determined by the number of poles, not whether windings are in series or parallel. The latter is used to change the nominal operating voltage (e.g. - from 480VAC/60Hz to 240VAC/60Hz). 

At any rate, you can use any old industrial inverter which specifically states it can drive PM synchronous motors and which can handle whatever type of shaft position sensor is on the motor. Traditionally, PM AC motors use resolvers rather than absolute encoders, but in either case the sensor needs to give the precise shaft position at all times.

You don't need particularly high starting torque in this application and regen will be of limited benefit (I suppose it might be possible to use regen while anchored at sea but not sure if that is practical/worthwhile or not) so a simple V/Hz (or "scalar") VFD should be fine (again, with the caveat that it says it is capable of driving PM AC motors).



boekel said:


> ...At the moment I reach 13 km/h @ 600 rpm @ 60 kW
> ...
> I hope to reach 15-16 km/h with about 90 kW
> 
> (This topic was ment for the motor btw...wandering off...)


Then you will almost certainly need to use a larger and/or more steeply pitched propeller, because the nameplate on that motor says it spins at 300 RPM when 365VAC/100Hz is applied, so you will need to apply ~730VAC/200Hz to get it to 600 RPM which is almost certainly going to be outside of its "comfort zone" and even if not will demand a very expensive VFD to control it. 

And while you are the OP and certainly can determine when your thread is veering off-topic, I would suggest that part of evaluating a motor's suitability for an EV application is the EV itself.


----------



## boekel (Nov 10, 2010)

Tesseract said:


> For PM or induction AC motors the base speed is determined by the number of poles, not whether windings are in series or parallel. The latter is used to change the nominal operating voltage (e.g. - from 480VAC/60Hz to 240VAC/60Hz).


Look at these graphs:


















With my limited knowledge I'd say the difference between those two motors (with the same weight, size, etc) is series / parallel windings. 



> At any rate, you can use any old industrial inverter which specifically states it can drive PM synchronous motors and which can handle whatever type of shaft position sensor is on the motor. Traditionally, PM AC motors use resolvers rather than absolute encoders, but in either case the sensor needs to give the precise shaft position at all times.


Yes it uses a resolver: RE-21 1 b05



> You don't need particularly high starting torque in this application and regen will be of limited benefit (I suppose it might be possible to use regen while anchored at sea but not sure if that is practical/worthwhile or not) so a simple V/Hz (or "scalar") VFD should be fine (again, with the caveat that it says it is capable of driving PM AC motors).


Indeed, no regen, sailing boats do use it sometimes.



> Then you will almost certainly need to use a larger and/or more steeply pitched propeller, because the nameplate on that motor says it spins at 300 RPM when 365VAC/100Hz is applied, so you will need to apply ~730VAC/200Hz to get it to 600 RPM which is almost certainly going to be outside of its "comfort zone" and even if not will demand a very expensive VFD to control it.


Apart from the industrial options, _Rinehart_ Motion Systems are confident they can drive it with their PM150DZ controller, though for tuning I'll have to fly in someone wich would be a bit expensive.

If the winding connections can be changed to the 600 rpm version it should be possible to drive it with the (lover voltage, higher amps) PM150DX controller at a much lower DC bus voltage.



> And while you are the OP and certainly can determine when your thread is veering off-topic, I would suggest that part of evaluating a motor's suitability for an EV application is the EV itself.


True, good point.


----------



## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

boekel said:


> Look at these graphs:
> ...graphs deleted...
> With my limited knowledge I'd say the difference between those two motors (with the same weight, size, etc) is series / parallel windings.


Attached is a page (p16) from the technical handbook for that specific frame size and series of motors. I highlighted the two different versions which you posted speed vs. torque graphs for above. Note that the AC frequency to get the 600 RPM motor to spin at 600 RPM is 200Hz, while for the 300 RPM motor it is 100Hz? That's because the RPM is determined by the equation:

RPM = (120 * f) / (p)

Where f is the frequency of the AC voltage and "p" is the number of pole pairs (usually just referred to as "poles", which is somewhat confusing).

For example, a motor that spins at 300 RPM when driven by a 100Hz AC voltage has 40 poles and a motor that spins at 600 RPM when driven by a 200Hz AC voltage also has 40 poles. So these are 40 pole motors (which is a very high pole count, and only really practical with synchronous motors for highly technical reasons I neither have the expertise nor the inclination to explain).

So the differences in the speed/torque curves for the two motors come about as a result of the changes to the winding configuration. This is illustrated by the change to the V/RPM ratio (Ke) and the Torque/amp ratio.


----------



## boekel (Nov 10, 2010)

Tesseract said:


> So the differences in the speed/torque curves for the two motors come about as a result of the changes to the winding configuration. This is illustrated by the change to the V/RPM ratio (Ke) and the Torque/amp ratio.


Well that's what I ment to say with series / parallel, V/rpm halves and Amps double.

The high pole count is possible because the rotor has many poles due to the Permanent Magnets.

I think its a very interesting type of motor, the 600 rpm version could be driven @ 300 rpm / 200 VAC for example.


----------



## boekel (Nov 10, 2010)

I did some power measurements on the current setup yesterday:
http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showthread.php?p=484202#post484202


----------

