# 1961 Willys Truck Conversion



## nucleus (May 18, 2012)

Great idea for a conversion. I have ridden and driven these and know them well. The are compact, relatively lightweight, and have an a really classic look. Those crazy pivoting pedals!

You can go a lot=t of ways, but with your budget, I would do a mix of new and used:

New:

AC-51 motor with Curtiss 144 Volt controller ($6K)
Some sort of Charger ($2K)

Used: Rejigger two Volt battery packs ($5K)

This leaves the DC-DC converter, battery monitor, throttle pedal, adaptor plate and other bits I'm not thinking of. I would build or at least partially build the adaptor plate myself.

At 88 HP you will be a little under stock, but it will have more HP through most of the RPM range.

Keeping the stock transmission and drivetrain I wouldn't go too high a torque motor.


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## Cbryan (Aug 7, 2017)

nucleus said:


> Great idea for a conversion. I have ridden and driven these and know them well. The are compact, relatively lightweight, and have an a really classic look. Those crazy pivoting pedals!
> 
> You can go a lot=t of ways, but with your budget, I would do a mix of new and used:
> 
> ...


Would it be advisable to use the "marine" AC51 for this application? I am worried about the occasional water crossing or mud hole that cannot be avoided.

On the batteries, what brand should I look out for? with a 2 volt battery I will be looking at 36 batteries for the total pack correct?


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## Ivansgarage (Sep 3, 2011)

The new ElCon 3300 charger 475.00 just got one. Nice charger.

http://evcomponents.com/customized-chargers/elcon-tc-hk-j-3300w-charger.html


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## nucleus (May 18, 2012)

*Marine or not? 1961 Willys Truck Conversion*



Cbryan said:


> Would it be advisable to use the "marine" AC51 for this application? I am worried about the occasional water crossing or mud hole that cannot be avoided.
> 
> On the batteries, what brand should I look out for? with a 2 volt battery I will be looking at 36 batteries for the total pack correct?


I'm not sure whether the marine version would be necessary or not, that might be worth a conversation with HPEVS. Marine would be cool for sure.

I would lean towards building a water resistant enclosure setup for all or most of the electrical equipment under the hood. something lightweight riveted up out of .040 alclad perhaps.

That way if you get in a very wet situation your electronics are protected.

As far as the battery, I believe that the 144 volt Curtiss controllers can handle up to about 155 volts, so build a pack up to be between 144 and 155 volts fully charged.

You can see from this webpage that they come bunched in groups of 12 and 6 cells. I would string 36 together in series, you can make 5 of these which you will parallel together for about 32 KwH total 36S5P pack.

http://www.schultzengineering.us/delta-11-12.htm


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## Moltenmetal (Mar 20, 2014)

The only batteries that make economic sense for a conversion these days are batteries out of a crashed Volt, Leaf, Tesla etc. They vary in price, ease of re-use etc. but all are available in the US for a fraction of what the prismatic LiFePO4 batteries that people like myself used in their conversions. OEM batteries have a higher energy density per unit mass than the LFP cells we used too, so a pack of a given capacity will weight less too.

As to using an HPEVS set-up: be aware that the high voltage (144 V) controllers for the AC-50/51 put out 500 A, whereas the lower voltage (96V) units put out 650 A. Torque is proportional to current, so the lower voltage in this case gives you the higher torque...note also that 96V means 96V nominal- your pack can sit as high as 130 V when fully charged and that won't bother the 96V controller IIRC- best to confirm that with HPEVS. 

Note that the Li-ion cells in OEM packs tend to be 3.8V nominal, 4.2 V peak (generally charged to less than that for longevity and safety reasons), whereas the LFP cells are 3.2V nominal, 3.6-3.8V peak. You'll need a different number of cells in series depending on your nominal voltage.

Note also that in my opinion you either NEED a BMS when using an OEM battery, or YOU will ultimately be the BMS. Realizing that screwing up just once can lead to a fire during charging might convince you that a BMS is mandatory, not just a nice idea. In my mind it's necessary safety equipment AND cheap insurance against unforseen problems. And I had one of those- one cell which mysteriously dropped in capacity relative to the others with no warning. Hasn't recurred, but my BMS prevented me from either over-charging or reversing that cell- not a huge problem either way (other than cost) for a LFP cell, but a potential disaster with an OEM cell. Others may differ in their risk tolerance, but on safety issues like this it's best to err on the side of caution in my opinion.


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## Cbryan (Aug 7, 2017)

With the suggestion of using readily available production packs, I see this most feasible as 3 - 48v packs out of a Chevy Volt (3 in series/2 packs in parallel). (what are the thoughts on this?) 

I have a request in to HPEVS on the use of the marine AC51 and hope to hear back from them soon.

How have people handled the BMS systems (either oem or home brew)


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## nucleus (May 18, 2012)

*Re: 1961 Willys Truck Conversion BMS HPEVS AC-50 vs. AC-51*

Myself I would skip an active BMS, just bottom balance and monitor. Too many are Battery Murdering Systems. Exception would be if I used LiPO or Tesla packs.

This is a controversial subject, I don't want to start a flame war, that is my opinion; you make up your own mind.

The AC-51 makes more HP, and gets the HP level closer to the original Hurricane motor. AC-50 is 67 HP, AC-51 is 88 HP.

If you have the time, watch EVTV from the beginning.


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## Cbryan (Aug 7, 2017)

*Re: 1961 Willys Truck Conversion BMS HPEVS AC-50 vs. AC-51*



nucleus said:


> If you have the time, watch EVTV from the beginning.


Is this a youtube channel or a private website? A google search brings up many possibilities.


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

nucleus said:


> If you have the time, watch EVTV from the beginning.





Cbryan said:


> Is this a youtube channel or a private website? A google search brings up many possibilities.


I believe that this refers to EVTV Motor Verks. There is an associated YouTube channel... but there is also the Archive of Past Episodes on the EVTV.me site.


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## Cbryan (Aug 7, 2017)

Cbryan said:


> With the suggestion of using readily available production packs, I see this most feasible as 3 - 48v packs out of a Chevy Volt (3 in series/2 packs in parallel). (what are the thoughts on this?)
> 
> I have a request in to HPEVS on the use of the marine AC51 and hope to hear back from them soon.
> 
> How have people handled the BMS systems (either oem or home brew)


After doing some research, I believe that the volt pack may be a little too much for a first time conversion. What more "bolt together" packs will still help give me a 40-60 mile range and be easier to configure for a first time converter?


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## aquabiologist (Sep 8, 2017)

I figure for your desired range, with this type of car, you will need a 24 kWh pack.

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## nucleus (May 18, 2012)

*Simpler Battery Packs*

75 100Ah Calb CA cells would give you 24 KWh. Only $135 each.


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## Cbryan (Aug 7, 2017)

*Re: Simpler Battery Packs*



nucleus said:


> 75 100Ah Calb CA cells would give you 24 KWh. Only $135 each.


So with those batteries it would be a 9s5p configuration to maintain the 144v nominal for the Curtiss 144 Volt controller. Just asking for confirmation.

This packaging configuration should be easy enough to build into the frame I have chosen. I understand there is more cost here but this should make the first conversion more successful.


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## Cbryan (Aug 7, 2017)

Cbryan said:


> I am looking to convert a 1961 Willys Truck to an EV. I am trying to figure out the the correct motor (or motors) to use. I would like to keep the 4x4 and the original 3 speed transmission. I would like to use this truck to commute dailyt to work (40 miles round trip) and do some mild off-roading (rocks and trails) on the weekends. I am looking to have an all in cost of $10-15K.
> 
> I am really looking for suggestions on the motor or motors and pack size for such an endeavor, any help or opinions are appreciated.


I have had to make some changes to the design due to the constrains of components I have chosen. So here is the current plan for the conversion:

JKUish frame (Jeep Wrangler 2 Door Frame stretched to the Willys wheel base of 118", this is 2" longer than the Jeep JKU)
Dana 44 Front and Rear Axles for a Jeep JK
Jeep JK 6 speed manual transmission and transfer case (I had planned on using the original Willys Transmission and Transfer case but it has passenger side front and rear drop and the JK axles are Front Driver Drop and Rear Mid).

Basically I will be making a JK EV conversion with a Willys Truck Shell to give it a cool vintage look.


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

nucleus said:


> 75 100Ah Calb CA cells would give you 24 KWh. Only $135 each.





Cbryan said:


> So with those batteries it would be a 9s5p configuration to maintain the 144v nominal for the Curtiss 144 Volt controller. Just asking for confirmation.


Why 9s? At 3.2V nominal, a 144-volt (nominal) battery would require 45 CALB CA 100 AH cells in series; 9s would only be 29 volts.

At 3.2V nominal and 100 Ah capacity, the energy stored per cell is nominally 320 Wh per cell, or 24 kWh for 75 cells. With 45 cells in series, you can't use 75 cells (75 cells would be 240 volts), but you could have:

45 cells all in series (none in parallel) for 14.4 kWh @ $6,075 and 153 kg (338 lb) occupying 90 litres (3.2 cubic ft), or 
90 cells (two in parallel) for 28.8 kWh @ $12,150 and 306 kg (675 lb) occupying 180 litres (6.4 cubic ft)

Of course those costs, weights, and volumes are just the cells... without a battery box, wiring, or battery management system.


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## Cbryan (Aug 7, 2017)

brian_ said:


> Why 9s? At 3.2V nominal, a 144-volt (nominal) battery would require 45 CALB CA 100 AH cells in series; 9s would only be 29 volts.
> 
> At 3.2V nominal and 100 Ah capacity, the energy stored per cell is nominally 320 Wh per cell, or 24 kWh for 75 cells. With 45 cells in series, you can't use 75 cells (75 cells would be 240 volts), but you could have:
> 
> ...


thank you for the reply! I see the error in my calculations, I fixated on the 144v final voltage instead of using 75 or more cells. With this cost so high for 90 cells, is there another solution that would be a good balance of performance to price with having to purchase 2 wrecked Volt packs (or similar production vehicle) to put the traction pack together for my conversion? At this time I can not commit to a lower total range (60-miles) as my current work does not have a charger so I need to plan on charging at home.


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## piotrsko (Dec 9, 2007)

As I see it, the lowest cost per Kwh is from some sort of salvage pack


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## nucleus (May 18, 2012)

I have run the numbers a lot. 

The Volt batteries are, as far as I can tell the best price performance ratio available today.


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## Cbryan (Aug 7, 2017)

Well I guess I will have to tackle this into my conversion.

What are the thoughts about commercial chargers like the GE WattStation? One have come available for $400? Should I snatch it up?


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## Cbryan (Aug 7, 2017)

Quick question, do you think a Chevy Volt battery pack with 120,000 miles on it would be a good buy or something to stay away from? Assuming no other information is available about the pack.


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

Cbryan said:


> Quick question, do you think a Chevy Volt battery pack with 120,000 miles on it would be a good buy or something to stay away from? Assuming no other information is available about the pack.


My guess is that at a Volt pack at that mileage could be anything from dead to pretty good, depending on how the car was used.

The Volt is a plug-in hybrid, not a battery-only electric car; depending on the length of trips and the owner's choice of settings, this pack could have been through two full cycles every day for thousands of days (by a commute at the limit of its battery-only range, with a charge during the day), or on the other extreme it might have never been fully discharged.

I suppose the relatively high mileage - ten years of average driving in a car that couldn't have been driven for as much as seven years - suggests that it might have spent most of its time burning gasoline on longer trips... not cycling the battery.


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## Cbryan (Aug 7, 2017)

I did find out that it is a 2012 volt


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## piotrsko (Dec 9, 2007)

Fwiw I have 5 years full electric on my 2011 volt pack out of a vehicle that had 30,000 when wrecked. I may have seen 5% capacity degradation and according to the experts here I should have destroyed my pack long ago.

YMMV


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## Cbryan (Aug 7, 2017)

piotrsko said:


> Fwiw I have 5 years full electric on my 2011 volt pack out of a vehicle that had 30,000 when wrecked. I may have seen 5% capacity degradation and according to the experts here I should have destroyed my pack long ago.
> 
> 
> 
> YMMV




Thanks for the reply! I was hoping that the Capacity would just be diminished by a small percent!


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## dain254 (Oct 8, 2015)

You would need to buy 2 Volt packs to meet your goals, luckily they are cheap so you would only have around $2500 into both of them if you are in the US. If you want to go somewhat primitive, a harness can be made to link all of the original Volt BMS ports together and find a cheap 36S BMS to simply top balance them... if 144V is your target a system that is 36S4P (a 2kwh "block" is 12S, so 3S4P in terms of blocks) would get you to 24kwh and 151.2V peak nominal something like ~133V. 

Another benefit of the Volt pack is the mounting hardware and battery cabling that comes with it, even more cost savings!! The orange flat wire is easily reused, and the mounting base is steel which can be cut apart and welded yielding a nice neat solution to mount the cells to! Volt batteries are great!


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## Cbryan (Aug 7, 2017)

Well life has been very complicated the last couple of years, but I’m back at this and have my chassis and body to roller status. My question for the group is if the volt batteries are still the best option or is there a better option now as things have changed with production EVs. Any input is welcome. 

I am still planning on using an AC51 for the motor


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

Cbryan said:


> My question for the group is if the volt batteries are still the best option or is there a better option now as things have changed with production EVs. Any input is welcome.
> 
> I am still planning on using an AC51 for the motor


Although the Volt battery is popular for conversions, the Volt is only a plug-in hybrid, so it has relatively low capacity compared to the battery of a battery-only EV. If that's enough, battery modules from the Chrysler Pacifica Hybrid are now available, and there should Mitsubishi Outlander PHEV modules available, too.

Assuming (because you are using an AC51) that you are using something like half or less of the 360 volts of a typical plug-in hybrid or EV pack, you might want to use a fraction of a larger EV battery (all of the modules used in series), rather than a whole Volt pack reconfigured into two parallel banks for enough capacity. Chevrolet Bolt packs are now available both new and used, and of course there are still the Leaf, Tesla Model S/X, and less common EVs to salvage.

While the shape of the Volt modules is a little awkward because of the coolant channels down the sides, I think this integrated liquid cooling system is an advantage, almost unique to the Volt among battery systems available for salvage. With Leaf modules, there is no thermal management system, which is simpler but can limit performance. With other liquid-cooled modules, they go on a "cold plate", and since the original cold plate probably wont fit a conversion project, using those modules with cooling can mean building cold plates; with the Volt you just hook up hoses.

An interesting oddball possibility is the later (2015 and later) Chevrolet Spark EV, which used modules nearly identical to those in a Volt.

A disadvantage of using anything other than Chevrolet Volt (and perhaps Spark EV), Nissan Leaf, and Tesla Model S/X battery modules might be that the battery management systems for those seem to be relatively well-understood, and anything else (among modules salvaged from production EVs) is probably more work to figure out.


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