# Need Help Choosing Setup for 600wtq/100Mile Range: Twin Motors-Controller-Batteries..



## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

I do not have the experience to make the recommendations you are looking for, but I can't wait to see where this goes.


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## Bowser330 (Jun 15, 2008)

What is your estimated budget?

Could you get by with two soliton1's sure, would zilla 2K's be better, sure, would the Shiva be best? YES, but are you prepared to pay 9,500$ for it?


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## evm3 (Nov 18, 2012)

Bowser330 said:


> What is your estimated budget?
> 
> Could you get by with two soliton1's sure, would zilla 2K's be better, sure, would the Shiva be best? YES, but are you prepared to pay 9,500$ for it?


Thank you for your response.

I have been debating about the Shiva. $9,500 is a chunk of change but it would be nice to go big and then never have to buy another controller again. However...would a controller like the Shiva cost $4,000 in a few years? Will the technology be getting cheaper that quickly as did the LCD screen TVs? Or not?

I have $50,000 total to spend if need be, but why waste money if I don't have to?

Probably my biggest questions are about batteries as I probably have the least amount of knowledge regarding batteries. What gives the best range, the most power, charges the quickest and is the lightest? Is it even possible to get all of that? Weight savings would be huge obviously. What is better than the blue Lithiums that is available right now?


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## evm3 (Nov 18, 2012)

evmetro said:


> I do not have the experience to make the recommendations you are looking for, but I can't wait to see where this goes.


Thank you!

I took a ride in this car and it got me hooked. Same model and paint of my car. It has 2 Warp 11s but it is used to go up Pike's Peak and I won't need that much back-breaking torque. I'd rather have a tad more hp and rpm range.

Mine will be a street car though as it still has full interior. Rear seat will come out though of course. I could try to have them build the car, which I still might. However, it will cost a bit more coin.

http://youtu.be/tvnCgW5tSsc


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## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

evm3 said:


> ...
> I have been debating about the Shiva. $9,500 is a chunk of change but it would be nice to go big and then never have to buy another controller again. However...would a controller like the Shiva cost $4,000 in a few years? Will the technology be getting cheaper that quickly as did the LCD screen TVs? Or not?


I can assure you that the Shiva will not be cheaper in 4 years; if anything it will be more expensive. The Shiva is an incredible pain in the ass to make, test, support, etc...


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## PTCruisin (Nov 19, 2009)

I guess I would look at the Tesla Model S if I had $50k to spend.


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## Yabert (Feb 7, 2010)

evm3 said:


> doable.*MOTORS:*
> -Dual Warp 9s or go Warp 11s or is something better out there?
> -I know that Warp 9s will give me more rpm range and more horsepower but less torque so they might be a closer match for a street/race car. Thoughts?


And the 9'' are lighter. (300 lbs vs 460 lbs).

To obtain 600 lbs-ft of torque at wheel, you will need to feed dual Warp 9 with more than 1000A at each motor. Something like 180-200v and 1200-1600A per motor will give you torque and power needed. It's sad, but that exclude dual soliton 1 choice. You will need to use a Zilla 2K or a Netgain control 360v 1400A.... or, of course the 1600hp shiva destroyer.

However, you can choose motor with interpole (warp 11HV or Kostov Alpha) and feed more voltage and less amps (250-300v and 1000-1400A) to each motor to obtain same (or even more) torque and power.

And, of course, battery choise will be complexe like any high power and long range conversion. I suggest you to buy battery at the end of your project.


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## evm3 (Nov 18, 2012)

Tesseract said:


> I can assure you that the Shiva will not be cheaper in 4 years; if anything it will be more expensive. The Shiva is an incredible pain in the ass to make, test, support, etc...


Very interesting information. I will make note and see if it is within budget and worth the extra cheddar after some research. 


PTCruisin said:


> I guess I would look at the Tesla Model S if I had $50k to spend.


Thank you for your response. I have looked into that car which is very nice for a daily driver. However, to really have some fun you have to buy the $95,000 version and still it is not quick enough. Besides, this car is my love, my toy, my getaway from the family car. 600wtq minimum is needed in this car specifically. I am wired different and that is what I need or I am bored to death.


Yabert said:


> And the 9'' are lighter. (300 lbs vs 460 lbs).
> 
> To obtain 600 lbs-ft of torque at wheel, you will need to feed dual Warp 9 with more than 1000A at each motor. Something like 180-200v and 1200-1600A per motor will give you torque and power needed. It's sad, but that exclude dual soliton 1 choice. You will need to use a Zilla 2K or a Netgain control 360v 1400A.... or, of course the 1600hp shiva destroyer.
> 
> ...


Fantastic information! Thank you! 

Wonderful info for me to research. I will look more into the Warp 11HV and Kostov Alpha more for less amps.

Batteries will absolutely be last. I am hoping something better will come along by the time the batteries are needed. What would be the best battery in your mind if I needed them right now so I can focus some research on those?


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

evm3 said:


> Hello everyone. I have a 3200lb BMW with built motor and turbo and I am over the little tuning issues, polluting the air, how loud it is, paying for gas, smelling the gas, getting dirty working on it, etc.
> 
> I am stripping it and plan a pretty powerful setup.
> 
> ...


Hi EVM3
600 Ft-lbs at the wheel is a bit light for such a heavy car,

600 Ft-lbs at each wheel is better - still not a lot

Assuming a 4:1 diff you will need 
600 x 2 (for both rear wheels) / 4 = 300 Ftlbs motor torque

That is about 1000 amps on one 9 inch motor


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## evm3 (Nov 18, 2012)

Duncan said:


> Hi EVM3
> 600 Ft-lbs at the wheel is a bit light for such a heavy car,
> 
> 600 Ft-lbs at each wheel is better - still not a lot
> ...


Sorry to be confusing.

When I speak of wheel torque I am talking about being on a Dyno and making 600wtq on a dyno which would have a higher number at the motor due to drivetrain loss. So over 600 torque at the motor.


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## palmer_md (Jul 22, 2011)

two soliton's and two Warp11hv's. That is what I'd put in the car along with a pack of 99 series'd Calb CA cells. The problem is you'd need a 250 size cell to get the full 2000 amps, and it does not exist, 180 is the largest. You could do a 99s3p of the 100's. You could also go with 99s5p A123 pouch cells which should do the 2000 amps (just barely).

Getting controllers and motors to give you the power to match the existing car is not going to be the problem. The problem is getting a battery pack that can feed the motors. You're going to end up with a relatively long range car just by the nature of the design...its also why Tesla has long range...to get the power you end up with lots of capacity.


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## evm3 (Nov 18, 2012)

palmer_md said:


> two soliton's and two Warp11hv's. That is what I'd put in the car along with a pack of 99 series'd Calb CA cells. The problem is you'd need a 250 size cell to get the full 2000 amps, and it does not exist, 180 is the largest. You could do a 99s3p of the 100's. You could also go with 99s5p A123 pouch cells which should do the 2000 amps (just barely).
> 
> Getting controllers and motors to give you the power to match the existing car is not going to be the problem. The problem is getting a battery pack that can feed the motors. You're going to end up with a relatively long range car just by the nature of the design...its also why Tesla has long range...to get the power you end up with lots of capacity.


 Palmer you are awesome buddy! 

Thank you so much for giving me the battery information. I am going to do a bunch of research on those products. 

Big power and long range. Great combo for me!


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## evm3 (Nov 18, 2012)

Okay after some research I have what might be some pretty obvious questions:

1) Why would I even think about going with A123 Calb CA cells when I can get the same or more output from A123 pouch cells?

2) Why would I even think about going with A123 Calb CA cells when I will have a massive weight reduction going with A123 pouch cells?

3) Why would I even think about going with A123 Calb CA cells when I will have a massive cost reduction going with A123 pouch cells?

4) Will I have less range with A123 pouch cells compared to A123 Calb CA cells?


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## palmer_md (Jul 22, 2011)

evm3 said:


> Okay after some research I have what might be some pretty obvious questions:
> 
> 1) Why would I even think about going with A123 Calb CA cells when I can get the same or more output from A123 pouch cells?
> 
> ...


First of all. A123 and CALB are two different companies. Calb makes the CA cells and A123 makes cylindrical and pouch cells. For this discussion we are primarily talking about the 19AH pouch cells.

1) Yes, the A123 will put out about 20c+, and the CA will be limited to about 8c (correction from my earlier estimate...it should have been 12c; old cells were 8c). This is my ballpark number, I'm sure others can give more specific information. You'll be able to have a shorter range car and still reach the 2000 amp output by using the A123.

2) Yes, by having a smaller pack and maintaining the same 2000 amp rating, you'll save weight. If you build both packs with the same capacity, I doubt you'll have any significant weight savings due to the packaging issues of the pouch cells.

3) The biggest reason to go with the Calb cell is ease of installation. Packaging is not difficult with the "block" cells compared to the pouch cells. They are also a company that is not going through a bankruptcy right now, and quality and consistency has been shown to be very good with these cells. A123 has been spotty at times. Some have had great results and others have had some pouch issues. If you take the time to package and then weed out the bad pouches, you'll end up fine, it is just (again) more work on packaging.

4) Range will just be a matter of capacity. Both will end up about the same weight with the same capacity, so no real difference. However, you can build a smaller pack with the A123 pouches (34kWh versus 64kWh), so that will save a bit of money and will also lighten the car and will take up less space, it is also easier to find places to put all the cells. I'm not sure if your car has room for 100 of the CA180's or even room for 500 of the A123 pouches. Back to range, You'll have 1.9x the range with the 100 Calb CA180 cells compared to the 500 pouch cells, but it might be harder to assemble them in the car, so it looks like you may have to see if you can find room for the 500 pouches (~34kWh). 

You'll have to do some space calculations to see what you have room for. 

I'd lean toward the CALB cells if you can fit 99 of the 180's in the car versus the 495 pouch cells. Either way it's about creative packaging of the cells.


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## evm3 (Nov 18, 2012)

palmer_md said:


> First of all. A123 and CALB are two different companies. Calb makes the CA cells and A123 makes cylindrical and pouch cells. For this discussion we are primarily talking about the 19AH pouch cells.
> 
> 1) Yes, the A123 will put out about 20c+, and the CA will be limited to about 8c (correction from my earlier estimate...it should have been 12c; old cells were 8c). This is my ballpark number, I'm sure others can give more specific information. You'll be able to have a shorter range car and still reach the 2000 amp output by using the A123.
> 
> ...


Whoops! Sorry about the manufacture disinformation there. Thanks for catching that.

1) OK so you feel that with your math 495 A123 pouches would give me about the same range/capacity and same power as 99 CALB cells?

2) According to this pretty neat video here, I can create my own cell with 6 A123 pouches in each cell. So by your 495 number if the cells weigh the same as the CALB cells and we only need 82.5 of these cells for the same range/, that is a weight savings of 16.5 cells worth multiplied by 12.4lbs per CALB cell = 204.6 lbs weight savings. Is that safe to say? 

3) Therefore the ease of installation between A123 and CALB is about the same if I created similar type cells myself using a mold. In fact, I will need less area for the same "capacity" in order to get the same "range" since I will only need to make 82.5 cells with 6 pouches in each cell? It would take a bit of work and time creating 82.5 of them so would it be worth the cost savings and little bit of weight savings? I need to know the cost of each pouch shipped.

4) 99 CALB x 12.4 lbs each cell = 1,227.6 lbs. OUCH!  Won't it be nice to one day get more power and more capacity than that with 100-200lbs?  Oh that'll be the day!

5) As far as space, the entire floor of the trunk would be cut out and used for cells, underneath the back seat where the fuel tanks are now would be used for cells and in the very front in front of the motor would be used for cells. I could measure it all out but 83 cells shouldn't be an issue at all going with the A123.

6) Now...what I read/heard about A123 as a company I highly despise. BARF! Not sure I'd want to support that company to save 200lbs and some money and time. Hrmmmm...


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## palmer_md (Jul 22, 2011)

evm3 said:


> Whoops! Sorry about the manufacture disinformation there. Thanks for catching that.
> 
> 1) OK so you feel that with your math 495 A123 pouches would give me about the same range/capacity and same power as 99 CALB cells?
> 
> ...


1) no, 495 A123 pouches is about 32kWh, and 99 CALB 180's is about 60kWh, so the CALB's will take you almost twice as far...except the pack will weigh much more and that will reduce efficiency a bit.

2) both the above should be sufficient to supply 2000 amps, but the A123's will weigh much less since they are much less capacity. If you build equal capacities they will weigh nearly the same. Advantage to A123 is that they can put out almost twice the current (not sure about the voltage drop when doing so)

3) You can arrange the pack however you like. I just thought that you would want to maximize the voltage available on the Soliton1, so 99 LiFePO4 cells is what you need. To get 2000 amps you need to know what the C rating is for the cells. A123 will do over 20c and Calb CA cells will do 12c. That means 2000/20 and 2000/12 for 100Ah on A123 and 166Ah for Calb CA. 5 parallel pouches or 180 Ah CA.

4) This is the real crux of the problem with the batteries right now. To get the power, you need a very big and heavy pack. You can probably get by with smaller Ah pack and just not have the full 2000 amps at WOT. You'll still get 2000 motor amps at launch, but the battery will limit you in amperage and you would not have 2000 amps once the controller reaches near 100% duty cycle. It is all part of the compromises we make when laying out our packs. But if $ is no object like you originally suggested, then the 32kWh A123 pack would be a great choice. 

5) I think you're still going to have a problem with space on anything over 32kWh. You could scale back your ambition and look to 99 of the 100Ah Calb CA's and that would also be about 32kWh but you'd be limited to about 1200 battery amps. You'd have 2000 motor amps at launch but limited to 400kW total between the two controllers. You'd only be running them at 2/3 of their potential, but still that is over 530HP.

good luck with your project. sounds fun. You have lots of choices and decisions to make.


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## Yabert (Feb 7, 2010)

Palmer md give good explanation about challenge with today battery technology for high power and long range.

Two choise are available today:
-Build a complex battery pack with pouch cells (A123 AMP20, Kokam, EIG, etc)
-Build a simple battery pack with Calb CA prismatic cells.

If I have to build a battery pack today, I probably choose to abused of Calb Ca cells. A 120S 1P (384v 100Ah (38.4 Kwh)) will weight an horrible 900 lbs, but will be able to supply over 400 Kw if you abuse a bit (12-15C dicharge).
And launch torque can be as high than 700-800 lbs-ft with proper motor (up to 2800-3200 rpm).

And Duncan is right, 600 wheel torque is nothing. But I understand your need of 600 lbs-ft of torque at motor shaft and it's why a give this explanation in my previous post (my error).


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## Bowser330 (Jun 15, 2008)

http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showthread.php/bench-build-1000hp-ev-79796.html

Check out that thread, we were discussing 1000hp Ev it might give you done ideas.

Another point to consider is that 600wtq from an Electric motor will feel different than 600wtq from an ice. The immediate torque of the electric motor may allow the same feel as an ICE with less torque. Two warp 9s with 1000a each is 550flbs according to jack rickards dyno not sure if its wtq or crank tq. Read his blog for more information, evtv.me, or something like that.

Warp9s are much cheaper than warp11s or warp11hvs and getting one zilla2kehv is cheaper than two soliton1's or a shiva.
Setup in parallel mode the motors would share amperage and each have full voltage so you can supply the motors with 1000a each and 200v (absolute max for non interloper motors, probably safer to stay around 170v)

So what you do is build your pack accordingly so since you need 170v to the motors you build your pack so that at 2000a draw the pack voltage will temporarily sag down to the motor voltage you need. So for calb ca 180s they sag down from 3.3 to 2.8 at 10c so that's 1800a, so lets say 2.7 for 2000a draw.
You need 170v to the motors so if you connect 63 cells in series you will have 170v sagged and 208v nominal ( at 3.3v)
Cells are 230$ each * 63 =14.5k$
And 208v*180a=37kwh meaning over 100 mile range 
And 12lbs*63=756 lbs


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## Yabert (Feb 7, 2010)

Bowser, 170v (under load) and 2000A is just around 350 hp out from dual warp 9.

And watch out with Zilla 2K spec.... 

· Maximum Battery Current at 200V: 1900 Amps

· Maximum Battery Current at 300V: 1770 Amps

· Maximum Battery Current at 400V: 1600 Amps


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## skooler (Mar 26, 2011)

What about going for 3 Kostov alphas? - the kostov alpha is shorter than the Warp 11 so you may be able to fit 3 in a similar space?

As for the rest of it. I'd be thinking along the lines of a Shiva with ~125 Calb CA180s or Sinopoly 200AH cells

The volts and amps wont be needed at the same time so peak battery amps wont be *that* high.

I'm pretty sure you could comfortably push 3000 Motor amps for a short period with this setup.

Cheers,

Mike


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## rwaudio (May 22, 2008)

evm3 said:


> Okay after some research I have what might be some pretty obvious questions:
> 
> 1) Why would I even think about going with A123 Calb CA cells when I can get the same or more output from A123 pouch cells?
> 
> ...


This is one reason..... note the CALB CA in the background waiting to replace the A123's....


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## Bowser330 (Jun 15, 2008)

rwaudio said:


> This is one reason..... note the CALB CA in the background waiting to replace the A123's....


holy crap!  i havnt been good at following your build RW, i had no idea. sorry to hear. I'm excited to see your results using the Calb CA cells


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## Bowser330 (Jun 15, 2008)

Yabert said:


> Bowser, 170v (under load) and 2000A is just around 350 hp out from dual warp 9.
> 
> And watch out with Zilla 2K spec....
> 
> ...


I understand that, and that's why I first said that the feel of a high torque electric setup is different than a high torque setup in an ICE, and that maybe he didn't really need as much as his goals.

The specs don't seem to be a problem for... http://www.plasmaboyracing.com/whitezombie.php


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## Bowser330 (Jun 15, 2008)

skooler said:


> What about going for 3 Kostov alphas? - the kostov alpha is shorter than the Warp 11 so you may be able to fit 3 in a similar space?
> 
> As for the rest of it. I'd be thinking along the lines of a Shiva with ~125 Calb CA180s or Sinopoly 200AH cells
> 
> ...


I like the idea of three k11 alphas and a Shiva, its a damn good idea.
but 125 Calb 180s @ 12.4lbs each = 1,550lbs!

The only batteries that can deliver the extreme amperage and not totally weigh down the car are lipos. But there has not been a lot of research done on their longevity. However from what some with experience have said, if you keep the discharge rate below the constant rate they will last much longer than if you use them to the maximum limit.

Turnigy A-Spec Lipo cells....
3.7V 6AH (1s2p)
139g
65C constant (390A)
130C burst!!
24$

So to keep it really conservative you would only target peak output @ 32C, half of the constant capability of the cell so that is a peak out put of 192A. So to build a 600kw capable pack you would need 100series = 370V nominal, 370V * 1622A = 600kw so 1622/192A = 8.5 or 9 in parallel...
100*9 = 900 cells, $21,600, 20kwh(50-60 miles @ 80% DoD) 275lbs


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## palmer_md (Jul 22, 2011)

rwaudio said:


> This is one reason..... note the CALB CA in the background waiting to replace the A123's....


ouch. sorry to hear your troubles. you were one of the few who seemed to have success with these. this only confirms my earlier statement that the CALB CA route is the better way to go. Not quite the power output of the A123, but much simpler installation and much greater reliability.


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## skooler (Mar 26, 2011)

Bowser330 said:


> I like the idea of three k11 alphas and a Shiva, its a damn good idea.
> but 125 Calb 180s @ 12.4lbs each = 1,550lbs!
> 
> The only batteries that can deliver the extreme amperage and not totally weigh down the car are lipos.
> ...


yep - I get 725KG for the Sinopolys, I imagine the CAs would be similar.

I agree completely that Turnigy is a good alternative. No Reason why they cant be used in a large pack. Theres another thread on that which got a little heated!

http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showthread.php/cells-inbetween-haiyin-headway-calb-80269.html


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## evm3 (Nov 18, 2012)

palmer_md said:


> 1) no, 495 A123 pouches is about 32kWh, and 99 CALB 180's is about 60kWh, so the CALB's will take you almost twice as far...except the pack will weigh much more and that will reduce efficiency a bit.
> 
> 2) both the above should be sufficient to supply 2000 amps, but the A123's will weigh much less since they are much less capacity. If you build equal capacities they will weigh nearly the same. Advantage to A123 is that they can put out almost twice the current (not sure about the voltage drop when doing so)
> 
> ...


Wow! Such great information once again. Thank you. I need to study more in regards to amps, watts, voltage and the mathematics in order to get them all working together properly for the most ideal setup in regards to power output, capacity, recharging capability, weight, etc.

I don't know what I'd do without forums. I am learning so much so quickly. I packed my brain for years on forums for ICE, now it's time for EV knowledge!


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## evm3 (Nov 18, 2012)

Yabert said:


> Palmer md give good explanation about challenge with today battery technology for high power and long range.
> 
> Two choise are available today:
> -Build a complex battery pack with pouch cells (A123 AMP20, Kokam, EIG, etc)
> ...


Okay I seem to be getting different information. 2000amps gives me 600tq or 700-800tq? Are you talking about Warp 11s instead of Warp 9s? Also, what horsepower and rpm are we talking as a difference? I have read that the Warp 11s have a shorter rpm range and less horsepower than the Warp 9s yet you get more torque with Warp 11s over the 9s.


Bowser330 said:


> http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showthread.php/bench-build-1000hp-ev-79796.html
> 
> Check out that thread, we were discussing 1000hp Ev it might give you done ideas.
> 
> ...


Okay now I am reading 63 cells versus 99 cells and still acquiring a 100 mile range with enough power for 600tq or more? Hrmmmm...

Oh and I have ridden in this car http://youtu.be/tvnCgW5tSsc which I believe has 840wtq on a dyno with two Warp 11s in it. I would be satisfied with that but might want more rpm and hp and not need quite the torque so that is why I was thinking two Warp 9s.


Yabert said:


> Bowser, 170v (under load) and 2000A is just around 350 hp out from dual warp 9.
> 
> And watch out with Zilla 2K spec....
> 
> ...


350hp only? Yikes! That is low. 


skooler said:


> What about going for 3 Kostov alphas? - the kostov alpha is shorter than the Warp 11 so you may be able to fit 3 in a similar space?
> 
> As for the rest of it. I'd be thinking along the lines of a Shiva with ~125 Calb CA180s or Sinopoly 200AH cells
> 
> ...


I haven't researched those motors and 3 wouldn't give me room for cells in front to balance weight of car and also would need two plates instead of 3 which is more cost along with the extra wiring, etc. More parts to fail too. Thanks for input though.


rwaudio said:


> This is one reason..... note the CALB CA in the background waiting to replace the A123's....


Great Grandmother's Spatula!  

Thank you so much for this! I am very principled and hate what I read about A123 as a company ethicly/morally, so this actually makes me feel better to solidify using the CALB cells. Thanks. Sorry to see you went through this though. 




Bowser330 said:


> I understand that, and that's why I first said that the feel of a high torque electric setup is different than a high torque setup in an ICE, and that maybe he didn't really need as much as his goals.
> 
> The specs don't seem to be a problem for... http://www.plasmaboyracing.com/whitezombie.php


I felt it in this car here http://youtu.be/tvnCgW5tSsc and fricking LOVE it. I am a power junky. 


Bowser330 said:


> I like the idea of three k11 alphas and a Shiva, its a damn good idea.
> but 125 Calb 180s @ 12.4lbs each = 1,550lbs!
> 
> The only batteries that can deliver the extreme amperage and not totally weigh down the car are lipos. But there has not been a lot of research done on their longevity. However from what some with experience have said, if you keep the discharge rate below the constant rate they will last much longer than if you use them to the maximum limit.
> ...


275lbs? That sounds like a dream! 

I really appreciate all the help. I am going to take this much slower than I originally planned. I am also thinking of using a much lighter car now looking into the weight of it all.

It would be a lot cheaper for me if I sold my current turbocharged ICE MK2 M3, took that money, bought a roller e30 MK1 m3 (which would be more like 2200lbs or so gutted) and use that for this project instead. It is a classic and I always wanted to get the first gen BMW m3 anyway. 


palmer_md said:


> ouch. sorry to hear your troubles. you were one of the few who seemed to have success with these. this only confirms my earlier statement that the CALB CA route is the better way to go. Not quite the power output of the A123, but much simpler installation and much greater reliability.


I hear you loud and clear. I am very thankful he shared this information and I am excited to not even think about A123 as I do not respect them as a company anyway. Sad that they received $259 million of our tax dollars. I almost feel that our government buys these companies out by paying them to go out of business with the strings being pulled by Big Oil...yet that is just my own personal theory on the matter. It does seem rather coincidental that every "green" company which receives massive government grants goes out of business.  


skooler said:


> yep - I get 725KG for the Sinopolys, I imagine the CAs would be similar.
> 
> I agree completely that Turnigy is a good alternative. No Reason why they cant be used in a large pack. Theres another thread on that which got a little heated!
> 
> http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showthread.php/cells-inbetween-haiyin-headway-calb-80269.html


Oh boy more cool info. Thanks!


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## evm3 (Nov 18, 2012)

Wow! Looks like the White Zombie is running these pouches http://www.dowkokam.com/tech-cells.htm and with only 192 of them the car does this?

192 Dow Kokam lithium polymer cells contained in 12, 29.6V clear Lexan modules. Battery pack at 355V, capable of 2,400 amps discharges, and stores 22.7 kWh of energy. Thanks to Dow Kokam, ChemWest, and Manazanita Micro for their support.










...and claiming this range?

90 miles urban, 110-120 miles highway.


...with this controller?

2000 amp Zilla by 'Cafe Electric'.


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## evm3 (Nov 18, 2012)

I am liking these cells http://www.dowkokam.com/tech-cells.htm. Claiming:

Excellent energy density (143mAh/g)
Excellent power-to-energy balance
High cycle life (2,000 cycles at 80% discharge)
Longer battery life
Faster charge and discharge capability
Improved safety through low impedance and heat generation


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## skooler (Mar 26, 2011)

evm3 said:


> I haven't researched those motors and 3 wouldn't give me room for cells in front to balance weight of car and also would need two plates instead of 3 which is more cost along with the extra wiring, etc. More parts to fail too. Thanks for input though.


If you haven't researched them then how do you know they wont fit .

They are lighter than their warp equivalents, have a better RPM band, run at higher voltagesand not as long.

The compromise is that they wont handle high current for as long.

14.5" compared to 17.5"

5800RPM compared to ?????

http://kostov-motors.com/tractionmo...)/seriesdcmotorsforelectricvehicles/k11alpha/

http://kostov-motors.com/tractionmo...iesdcmotorsforelectricvehicles/k11340v-dual-/

If you speak to Kostov directly they'll sort something out with adaptors, joining motors etc.

I'm a bit surprised you dismissed the idea before looking into it!

Cheers,

Mike


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## evm3 (Nov 18, 2012)

skooler said:


> If you haven't researched them then how do you know they wont fit .
> 
> They are lighter than their warp equivalents, have a better RPM band, run at higher voltagesand not as long.
> 
> ...


Now you are itching my curious side. 

5800rpm? Hrmmmm...that I like. 

I will look into this. Thank you for nudging me. I need to remind myself to keep my mind open to everything and research everything.

Thank you.


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## skooler (Mar 26, 2011)

evm3 said:


> Now you are itching my curious side.
> 
> 5800rpm? Hrmmmm...that I like.
> 
> ...


No worries, thought it was worth a nudge!


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## Yabert (Feb 7, 2010)

> Originally Posted by *evm3*
> Okay I seem to be getting different information. 2000amps gives me 600tq or 700-800tq? Are you talking about Warp 11s instead of Warp 9s? Also, what horsepower and rpm are we talking as a difference? I have read that the Warp 11s have a shorter rpm range and less horsepower than the Warp 9s yet you get more torque with Warp 11s over the 9s.


For similar motor (Warp 9, Warp 11, Warp 11HV, Kostov Alpha) if you give similar power (same Volt and Amps) at motor therminal (from battery), the shaft power will be similar.The difference will be the rpm where you will obtain this power (different torque). 
Depending of your dual motors configuration you can obtain from 500 lbs-ft of torque to over 800 lbs-ft like the EVWest BMW (That imply, of course, 1000 to 3000A controller).

The other important difference is than some motor have interpoles (11HV and Alpha) to be able to take more voltage and produce more horsepower with same Amps.

Finally, take care about comparing to withezombie, this car is light (2300 lbs) compare to your BMW.


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## Bowser330 (Jun 15, 2008)

100 miles will be tight to do on 50K$ budget with lipos considering the expensive controller and motors you need to buy, those batteries don't give great energy density per dollar...

Turnigy A-Spec Lipo cells....
3.7V 6AH (1s2p)
139g
65C constant (390A)
130C burst!!
24$

So if you need 100miles range and you average 300wh/mile then you would need a ~30kwh pack...100 in series= 370V nominal and therefore you would need 81AH = 30kwh pack...81/6ah = 13.5 or 14 cells in parallel...1400 cells = 34K$, 30kwh, 428lbs

Shiva = 9,500$ and Three kostov11Alphas (2700$ each, maybe less since you're ordering three) 
http://kostov-motors.com/files/productattachments/046de95abf0344b1e46ff48da45b73e3_S250F03 (2).pdf

The pack above is capable of supplying 3000A and only being discharged to 36C, the cells are rated to constantly supply 65C, so you are still in a very safe discharge range.

If all the motors were in parallel each would get full voltage and 1/3 the amperage or 1000A (the max you want to go on a kostov motor) with assuming 10% voltage sag, 333V*1000A = 333kw * 75%eff = 250kw * 90%eff for drivetrain losses = 225whp * 3 motors = 675whp

The following graph shows @ 215V the K11 can draw 500A & 4500rpm, I am not sure of the exact calculation but if you assume that 215V can draw 1000A @ ~3000rpm then since 333V is 1.55X 215V, 333V could be able to pull 1000A @ 4,650rpm
http://kostov-motors.com/files/productattachments/046de95abf0344b1e46ff48da45b73e3_S250F03 (2).pdf

Total = very close to 50K$, but does not include other parts, like charger, battery connectors, racks, bms, cabling, adapters, etc, etc, etc.


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## palmer_md (Jul 22, 2011)

Yabert said:


> The other important difference is than some motor have interpoles (11HV and Alpha) to be able to take more voltage and produce more horsepower with same Amps.


For a high voltage and high power application like you are planning, I would not use anything but an inter-polled motor. Probably the NG11hv, but I'd first talk to NetGain and Kostov and see what they suggest once you have some of your other particulars lined up (pack voltage and controller selection). Three Kostov alpha's might be better than two 11hv's. Again you have lots of options and I'd suggest getting some professional opinions.

Only problem with three motors is that the two Soliton1's wont work. You'd need a Shiva as Skooler suggested.


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## Bowser330 (Jun 15, 2008)

palmer_md said:


> For a high voltage and high power application like you are planning, I would not use anything but an inter-polled motor. Probably the NG11hv, but I'd first talk to NetGain and Kostov and see what they suggest once you have some of your other particulars lined up (pack voltage and controller selection). Three Kostov alpha's might be better than two 11hv's. Again you have lots of options and I'd suggest getting some professional opinions.
> 
> Only problem with three motors is that the two Soliton1's wont work. You'd need a Shiva as Skooler suggested.


I wasn't aware that Shiva was able to supply three motors, can it supply more than three?


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## skooler (Mar 26, 2011)

Bowser330 said:


> I wasn't aware that Shiva was able to supply three motors, can it supply more than three?


Its just a case of connecting them in series or parallel. You could have as many as you like or is practical...


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