# Re: [EVDL] Cyclecar EV's, Volt, EV production...



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Cyclecar EV's, Volt, EV production...*

Hi Haudy, John and All,

What we need is a new category of
cyclecars which would be under 1200lbs for ICE's and 1500lbs
for EV's. This under present FedDOT MC rules including 4
wheelers would allow many companies to start up at very low
costs. It's already here in most states for 3wh enclosed
MC's but adding 4wheels to it would allow more compact,
lighter units like the Tango which would sell better than
3wheelers. 3wheelers have to be 2 people wide for stability
reasons but a low battery 4wheeler could be quite small and
handle very well.
And as we all know or should, EV's cost
by the pound so the secret of cost effective EV's is low
glider weight, good aero.
As for safety, the safest car in Japan is
the Kei car which has 660cc, about 1,000lbs so size and
safety isn't a given.
The Volt, really is the E-flex platform
which any body can be put on could be done for under $20k
easily by using Hawker/Orbital style lead cells with cell
level regulation/Lee Hart style battery balancer would last
a long time, 5-10 yrs at very low cost/mile and not too much
to rebattery, just the cost of remanufacturing.
By doing the body/chassis right like the
aero, lightweight GM Ultra-lite only 500lb lead battery pack
would be needed and a 15kw generator hopefully connected in
series/parallel instead of just series. Done in more cost
effective composites like I use can be done now if they had
the will to do it.
May have found a running 1980 Chevy Luv in
perfect shape driven by an 84 yr old lady to convert to a
long ranger, cost effective EV for a customer. I hope we get
it as lightweight, stout, small frontal area gliders are
hard to find.

Jerry Dycus


----- Original Message Follows -----
From: Haudy Kazemi <[email protected]>
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Volt, Schmolt...
Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2008 03:34:29 -0500



> >[email protected] wrote:
> >>> Here's a radical idea. Give we who don't need or want
> >>> cradle-to-grave protection from nannygov a choice.
> >>> Create a class of vehicle that has ALL the
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Cyclecar EV's, Volt, EV production...*

Jerry, I'll play... I was watching that thread too. More questions than
answers.

2 seat and 4 seat models, 2 different weight limits. 

Do we limit motive power? Say 100 watts/mile @ 40mph for the dual and 150
watts/mile for the quad? ICE (?, why) at 100mph or better.

Do you limit the foot print? Parking is a big thing in Europe and many
places in the US.

The Ultra Light is good. An Aptera/Smart/MIT-city-car prodigy might be an
option.

Do you limit the speed? Say 50 mph for the vehicle but limit operation to
45 mph zones... or maybe 60mph/55...

Where do we drive them? I'm building a BugE (in line with the concept
here). If I can take it on the freeway, I won't. Before we talk about a
small cars being "unsafe" I'll mention how small my Expedition is next to an
18 wheeler. So, do we set aside a lane or two for these, Freedom24 cars
(what do we call them; City, urban, Metro and Freedom have been taken). Do
we build new "paths"?

Hybrids seem like the only real answer to most of the driving in the US. 
Should this class of vehicle be H2 powered? In this power class, the H2
could be produced at home making a plugin-H2 Electric hybrid very do-able. 
A closed loop fuel cell with auxiliary H2 input (replaceable cylinders) for
longer trips maybe. Look at the Metal hydride storage cylinders; low
pressure and high capacity.

Just musing.

Greg
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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Cyclecar EV's, Volt, EV production...*

Hi Greg,

I don't want to limit much of anything. I
was opening up a very wide category of light vehicles with
unlimited choices and only very basic regulations like
lights, ect as MC's have now. The weight, 1500lb MC max
comes from most state regulations of those who have limits.
The idea is one doesn't need 4000lbs to move a 200lb person
around and without getting wet, cold, ect. The only real
thing my idea changes is allowing 4wheels because you can
make them smaller than 3wheelers now built as cars.
Fla doesn't have a MC weight limit so I'd
like to build a Dymaxion style EV/battery dominated hybrid 2
person RV, about 2000lbs ;^D
Only those who make money from H2 and
those who haven't studied it would consider H2/foolcells as
it's much less eff than other fuels overall. NiMH tanks are
heavy!! More than Li and more costly too. You can have my
share.
If a BugE would do highway speeds safely,
I'd go interstate on one. I drive a moped EV in 50mph
traffic every day.

Jerry Dycus

----- Original Message Follows -----
From: gregj888 <[email protected]>
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Cyclecar EV's, Volt, EV production...
Date: Sat, 28 Jun 2008 17:15:13 -0700 (PDT)

>Jerry, I'll play... I was watching that thread too. More
>questions than answers.
>
>2 seat and 4 seat models, 2 different weight limits. 
>
>Do we limit motive power? Say 100 watts/mile @ 40mph for
>the dual and 150 watts/mile for the quad? ICE (?, why) at
>100mph or better.
>
>Do you limit the foot print? Parking is a big thing in
>Europe and many places in the US.
>
>The Ultra Light is good. An Aptera/Smart/MIT-city-car
>prodigy might be an option.
>
>Do you limit the speed? Say 50 mph for the vehicle but
>limit operation to 45 mph zones... or maybe 60mph/55...
>
>Where do we drive them? I'm building a BugE (in line with
>the concept here). If I can take it on the freeway, I
>won't. Before we talk about a small cars being "unsafe"
>I'll mention how small my Expedition is next to an 18
>wheeler. So, do we set aside a lane or two for these,
>Freedom24 cars (what do we call them; City, urban, Metro
>and Freedom have been taken). Do we build new "paths"?
>
>Hybrids seem like the only real answer to most of the
>driving in the US. Should this class of vehicle be H2
>powered? In this power class, the H2 could be produced at
>home making a plugin-H2 Electric hybrid very do-able. A
>closed loop fuel cell with auxiliary H2 input (replaceable
>cylinders) for longer trips maybe. Look at the Metal
>hydride storage cylinders; low pressure and high capacity.
>
>Just musing.
>
>Greg
>-- 
>View this message in context:
>http://www.nabble.com/Re%3A-Cyclecar-EV%27s%2C--Volt%2C-EV-production...-tp18008891p18176149.html
>Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
>archive at Nabble.com.
>
>_______________________________________________
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>http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev 

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Cyclecar EV's, Volt, EV production...*

Jerry,

We are in general agreement, I was courious what members of the list think
this new class of vehicle might look like. There are some infustructure
questions as well, so those could stand to be discussed. I think it's a
great idea, as the 25 mph (NEV rules in Oregon) are not going to support a
general solution IMHO.

Where we probably disagree is on hydrogen. What I don't know, but will
soon, is how much power you need from the "other power source" in a hybrid
to make it a general use vehicle. My gut says 2x to 5x the average power
consumption, so 100 watts/mile would need 200 to 500 watt/s per mile for
continious operation.

If we said 300 watts just for fun, the fuel cell is about 4 lbs and the
(heavy?) solid H2 tank needed for 5 hours of operation is 5 lbs. If we said
40mph, thats an additional 200 miles plus range for 10lbs in vehicle weight. 
If true, that's cheaper than AGMs and cuts your Li pack in half.

In any case, Hydrogen is just another form of energy stored in chemical
form. It happens that I can "make" H2 at home but any form of stored energy
is fine with me. An ICE in this range doesn't make sense to me, but hey...

Cost- off the shelf today the fuelcell and storage tank above are about $3k. 
No idea how long it would last or anything else.

At 100 watts per mile- Battery ~ $0.01 /mile, my guess for the fuelcell with
home made H2 ~ $0.02 to $0.05 per miles. With $4.00 gas and 35 MPG you are
at $0.13/mile, so there is a lot of room to play.


Greg
-- 
View this message in context: http://www.nabble.com/Re%3A-Cyclecar-EV%27s%2C--Volt%2C-EV-production...-tp18008891p18177765.html
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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Cyclecar EV's, Volt, EV production...*



> jerryd wrote:
> > I was opening up a very wide category of light vehicles with
> > unlimited choices and only very basic regulations like 1500 lbs max,
> > lights etc. as motorcycles have now... The idea is one doesn't need
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Cyclecar EV's, Volt, EV production...*

Detroit Electric has been reborn and is supposed to be producing a 
replica of the Detroit Electric.

<http://detroit-electric.com/content/about-detroit-electric>

Sadly, this appears to be another one of ZAP's ventures, so I don't 
expect it's going to work out well. And of course, if it fails, it 
poisons the well for anyone else trying to make a replica of a early 
1900's EV.



> Lee Hart wrote:
> 
> > jerryd wrote:
> >> I was opening up a very wide category of light vehicles with
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Cyclecar EV's, Volt, EV production...*



> Doug Weathers wrote:
> > Detroit Electric has been reborn and is supposed to be producing a
> > replica of the Detroit Electric.
> >
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Cyclecar EV's, Volt, EV production...*

Maybe I missed it, but I didn't see anything on the Detroit Electric site
about producing a replica of the early Detroit Electrics.
It's pretty sleazy that they would grab the name of one of the greatest
electric car companies of the early 20th century.
They're not even based in Detroit...damn them all to hell...
-mt

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf
Of Lee Hart
Sent: Sunday, June 29, 2008 8:08 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Cyclecar EV's, Volt, EV production...



> Doug Weathers wrote:
> > Detroit Electric has been reborn and is supposed to be producing a
> > replica of the Detroit Electric.
> >
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Cyclecar EV's, Volt, EV production...*



> Lee Hart <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> 
> >In a slightly different direction... Since we have the category of NEV,
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Cyclecar EV's, Volt, EV production...*

Sorry about that. I don't see it any more, either.

I remember this story (Detroit Electric replica sold as a NEV) being 
posted to the EV List some time ago, so I did a Google search and found 
a couple of hits that seemed to verify the story. I looked at the 
Detroit Electric site listed below and was fooled by the careful 
wording and the picture.

Perhaps I misread the press release, but I could have sworn that this 
article:

<http://www.autobloggreen.com/2008/02/07/zap-alias-will-revive-detroit- 
electric-brand/>

included the string "NEV" when I read it. Clearly it doesn't. Sorry 
again.





> Myles Twete wrote:
> 
> > Maybe I missed it, but I didn't see anything on the Detroit Electric
> > site
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Cyclecar EV's, Volt, EV production...*



> Myles Twete wrote:
> > Maybe I missed it, but I didn't see anything on the Detroit Electric site
> > about producing a replica of the early Detroit Electrics.
> 
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Cyclecar EV's, Volt, EV production...*

> Are the claims, variously 80, 100 or even 200+ miles to a charge even
> remotely
> possible, given the batteries that wheels that small could have supported?
> At
> a 20mph top speed, that would be 10 hours of drive time. Seems like an
> incredible claim, even at 20 mph.

Remember two things.

1) At 20 mph, aerodynamic drag is fairly small (roughly 1/25 of what it
would be at 60 mph)

2) Lead Acid batteries deliver almost twice the capacity at the 20 hr rate
as they do at the 1 hr rate.

So when you double your energy capacity and drastically reduce your energy
requirements, getting 100-200 miles of range is not that unbelievable.


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Cyclecar EV's, Volt, EV production...*



> Lee Hart wrote:
> >> Since we have the category of NEV, it might make sense to recreate
> >> some of these classic antique EVs of the early 1900's... The Detroit
> >> must be the Rolls Royce of electrics. It's hard to imagine a more
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Cyclecar EV's, Volt, EV production...*

On Mon, 30 Jun 2008 02:30:35 -0600 (MDT), "Peter VanDerWal"


> <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> >> Are the claims, variously 80, 100 or even 200+ miles to a charge even
> >> remotely
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Cyclecar EV's, Volt, EV production...*



> Neon John wrote:
> > Yabut. My Citi would never go that far on a charge even at 20-25 mph,
> > not even with the 72 volt pack.
> 
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Cyclecar EV's, Volt, EV production...*



> Lee Hart <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> >Neon John wrote:
> >> Yabut. My Citi would never go that far on a charge even at 20-25 mph,
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Cyclecar EV's, Volt, EV production...*

> >Ah, but these old electrics did not use standard differentials. They 
> >used special ones, built for high efficiency. 
> 
> But what was special in 1916? Had the hyoid gear and the EP lube needed to 
> make it happy and healthy been invented yet? What else could they do, given 
> the era? How about precision ball bearings? 

No, by 1913, the trend was toward worm-gear drive coupling between the drive shaft and the differential. Indeed, by 1915, few were using anything but a worm-drive. These were typically around 8:1 to 10:1 ratio. My Milburn uses one. Look up Lanchester drives---these were the worm drives that Detroit Electrics used, IIRC. I think Milburn had their own custom worm drives made.

-Myles Twete, Portland, Or.
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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Cyclecar EV's, Volt, EV production...*

> I know from having worked in a friend's shop where he restores Model Ts and As 
> that the crude differentials of that period were fairly inefficient (they get 
> quite warm even at 20 mph), as were motor designs (judging from electrical 
> engineering text from that period that I own). Figure in the rudimentary tire 
> design and road conditions and the numbers become even more not credible. 
> 
> Maybe the car really did achieve that kind of range but I suspect not. I 
> suspect that Detroit Electric started the long tradition that extends to today 
> of exaggerating (lying about) the range of EVs. 
> 
> John 

The worm drives (particularly Detroit's Lanchester drive) on the electrics of the teens were very efficient.
And in some cases (particularly with Detroit Electrics), the speed controllers included field weakening as an option for faster speeds when low drag was the situation (e.g. following wind, down hill, etc.).
My 1921 Milburn, if fitted with a standard 84v, 800# or so pack setup, would do nom. 22-25mph.
With nom. 96v with my Milburn now, on the flat, it averages about 50amps avg at 30mph...i.e. about 150wh/mi. With 84v pack of T-105's, I'd expect 150ah to 80% at about 40amps...ie. over 3.5-hrs of driving at 22-25mph or so...tor perhaps 75-90mi range. As I recall, this is about what Milburn spec'd for range. Similarly for my 1911 Hupp-Yeats, with direct bevel gear drive...they claimed 75-90mi range.
Detroit may have done better, especially if field weakening worked to its advantage.
A 1916 Detroit would nom. do less speed than a Milburn...around 20mph, but did have more speed control.

-MT
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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Cyclecar EV's, Volt, EV production...*

On Mon, 30 Jun 2008 19:50:51 +0000, [email protected] wrote:

>> >Ah, but these old electrics did not use standard differentials. They 
>> >used special ones, built for high efficiency. 
>> 
>> But what was special in 1916? Had the hyoid gear and the EP lube needed to 
>> make it happy and healthy been invented yet? What else could they do, given 
>> the era? How about precision ball bearings? 
>
>No, by 1913, the trend was toward worm-gear drive coupling between the drive shaft and the differential. Indeed, by 1915, few were using anything but a worm-drive. These were typically around 8:1 to 10:1 ratio. My Milburn uses one. Look up Lanchester drives---these were the worm drives that Detroit Electrics used, IIRC. I think Milburn had their own custom worm drives made.

Did they use some special form of worm drive? My general perception, backed
by a Wiki article (I mention Wiki very hesitantly) is that worm drives are
fairly inefficient, at least industrial type ones are.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Worm_drive

Material on the Lanchester worm drive has been hard to find with so much stuff
on his car design on the web. I did find this SAE paper

http://books.google.com/books?id=Cl9kAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA215&lpg=PA215&dq=Lanchester+worm+gear+drives&source=web&ots=n7fTDEUdNi&sig=eCXrWNJ9xvBiz68P8wFHMMz8CNo&hl=en&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=5&ct=result#PPA219,M1

which briefly mentions the Lanchester worm in the context of defending the
worm drive differential for its numerically high ratio capability in a small
package and its silence relative to bevel gears but not in terms of
efficiency. Worm drives are still used in some very heavy duty truck
applications but they are not efficienct, as evidenced by the necessary
cooling system.

I could not find a photo or even a detailed description of the Lanchester
drive used on these cars. Do you have any online info or even better, a
photo?

John



--
John De Armond
See my website for my current email address
http://www.neon-john.com
http://www.johndearmond.com <-- best little blog on the net!
Tellico Plains, Occupied TN
Give Blood. 8 Billion Mosquitoes can't be wrong.

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Cyclecar EV's, Volt, EV production...*



> Neon John wrote:
> > Did they use some special form of worm drive? My general perception...
> > is that worm drives are fairly inefficient, at least industrial type
> > ones are.
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Cyclecar EV's, Volt, EV production...*

>The Lanchester or globoidal type gears have a relatively large area of 
>contact. The pressure is thus much lower, so the parts can actually 
>"float" on an oil film. This provides the higher efficiency.

Yes.
Also, it's commonly understood that you cannot backdrive a wormgear.
And that was one of the first concerns I had before buying the Milburn was
realizing that it had a worm gear drive.
I thought: "what the heck happens when you down shift to lower speeds,
putting a load on the worm, won't it lock up?"
Well, no....these worm drives don't lock up at all, even when plug breaking
is engaged.

-MT
.


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Cyclecar EV's, Volt, EV production...*

I'm familiar with Globoidal gears. As a rule, that is what is used in most
all industrial worm drive gearboxes.

Anyway, I was cleaning out my Acrobat reader and re-examined the file named
LuxurySummer.pdf, downloaded from the Zap site. It's a reproduction of a full
page ad for the car from Cosmo magazine, date unspecified. There's an
illustration of the drivetrain. An arrow points to the differential with the
text "Adj Bevel Gears (enclosed)". The pumpkin is NOT that of a worm drive.
Hmmmmm.

Also, in the text, "Batteries--Edison, Ironclad, Detroit or Exide." Looks
like they offered a wide choice of batteries, Edison's NiFe being only one.
That explains the magazine article's discussing the guy who restored the car
wanting to have replica PbA batteries made.

I know that none of this resolves the range issue but it DOES make this car
look a lot more Citi-like. Or vice versa. Whatever happened to be available
got used.

John




> Lee Hart <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> >Neon John wrote:
> >> Did they use some special form of worm drive? My general perception...
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Cyclecar EV's, Volt, EV production...*



> Neon John wrote:
> > LuxurySummer.pdf... a reproduction of a full page ad for the car from
> > Cosmo magazine, date unspecified. There's an illustration of the
> > drivetrain. An arrow points to the differential with the text "Adj
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Cyclecar EV's, Volt, EV production...*

Morning,
Friends of ours rebuild Model-Ts Parts out in the shed and in the yard if
too big to fit in the shed. One piece in the yard is such a differential as
Lee describes. I remember him telling me it was from a truck of some sort. A
large slow moving truck for sure.

Mark Grasser 
Eliot, ME


The few antique electric car differentials I've seen certainly had cases 
vastly different from modern ones, or even from the ICEs of the time. 
The old Detroit I rode in certainly had a worm-type drive; the case was 
quite flat and very large in diameter, with a big bulge at the edge 
where the spiral worm gear would be.

-- 
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Cyclecar EV's, Volt, EV production...*



> Neon John wrote:
> 
> > Anyway, I was cleaning out my Acrobat reader and re-examined
> > the file named LuxurySummer.pdf, downloaded from the Zap
> ...


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