# Zombie 222 build



## Zombie 222 (Jul 3, 2014)

I have started a new business (Blood Shed Motors) in Austin Texas for converting vintage muscle cars into extremely powerful electric cars. This business idea was inspired by John Wayland's White Zombie and and he ihas designed the electric drive train, mentoring us on the EV world and introducing us to a bunch of really great folks in this new EV world. We also have a friend of John's named Marko leading the fabrication work, master mechanic named Alan handling all mechanical and suspension work, a close friend of mine named Jack handling all the high-tech electronics, a great welder named Andrew and a project manager with general mechanical skills named Joe. I provide the shop and funding and do paint bodywork. All in all, a great team with a broad skill set. However, only John and Marko have hands-on experience in the EV world, so I am excited about participating in a great forum like this.

Here are the specs for the first Zombie 222 (nicknamed the Black Zombie)

Starting car- completely rust and and wreck free 1968 Mustang Fastback
















Next comes the motors and controllers

(2) Warp 11"s 
(2) Zilla controllers









Next comes the quad motoring system Allen designed. 















gotta run, I'll post more a little later...


----------



## samwichse (Jan 28, 2012)

Wow, just wow. Everything about this build is just amazing, from that cherry you started with to the guts you're dropping in it.

Beautiful mounts in the engine compartment BTW.

The only problem you're going to have is with hoards of angry big iron zombies screaming for your death for making that car "sound wrong."


----------



## dougingraham (Jul 26, 2011)

This will be interesting to watch.

In the Mustang I would do single 11HV (386HP) with dual 9's (515 HP) as an upgrade followed by dual 11HV's (772 HP). The problem is not motors/controllers it is batteries.


----------



## Zombie 222 (Jul 3, 2014)

Well, as promised, here are some more pictures of the build.

Here are the two motors coupled and the gear vendor attached getting ready for test fit on the mounting system. 









Now here are two pictures of how well it fit the first try. The guys are good!















Now looking up from underneath.....















Lot of work...


----------



## dougingraham (Jul 26, 2011)

What is the gearbox and final drive ratio? Are those Z2k's you are going to use?


----------



## samwichse (Jan 28, 2012)

Hah! I'm so used to seeing a small looking electric motor attached to a (relatively) huge-looking 5-speed or automatic... that gearbox looks tiny on there.


----------



## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

Hi Zombie

Have you considered asking Tesla for chassis/motor/battery units and then putting the muscle car body on that?


----------



## Zombie 222 (Jul 3, 2014)

dougingraham said:


> What is the gearbox and final drive ratio? Are those Z2k's you are going to use?


The gear box is called a "gear vendors" and it is basically an electrically activated overdrive gear that changes your final drive from a 1 to 1 to .778 to 1. If you want more, you can chain them together. Later this year if everything goes as planned, I will be adding another one to give me a final drive of .556 to 1. The product was originally developed to give folks like me who collect old muscle cars a better highway gear. My 67 Mustang has a C6 transmission and when it is 3rd it is running 1 to 1 to at 60MPH and my RPMs are over 3000. With a gear vendors, I would have a lower RPM at 60PMH. Since these were developed for hot rod and muscle cars, they can handle massive HP and Torque making them perfect for EV applications where you want to avoid a full transmission, but still want a high top speed and have massive torque. 

Yes, we are using Z2Ks. Two of them so each motor can get the full benefit of a Zilla.


----------



## Zombie 222 (Jul 3, 2014)

Duncan said:


> Hi Zombie
> 
> Have you considered asking Tesla for chassis/motor/battery units and then putting the muscle car body on that?



Wow, you must be a mind reader. My dream is be successful enough that I could license the some of the Tesla drive train and use in the muscle car conversions and perhaps mark the cars as Tesla powered. I have not tried to approach them over it because I believe I need to prove what we can do first with a couple of Zombie 222s.


----------



## Zombie 222 (Jul 3, 2014)

Here are a few more pictures of the build... 

Now the motors have to be installed and wired. John Wayland handled the wiring. Pretty darn nice job to be done in one night....















Even kids love the Zombie 222









Here is the loner battery pack that Dereck from High Tech Systems let us use for one evening at the drag track. These were just used by Big Daddy Don Garlits trying to set a record for electric rail dragsters in the 1/4 mile. These two modules are just 1/2 of the full pack. This is a record size pack at 1.5 Mega Watts.


----------



## samwichse (Jan 28, 2012)

Will the red solo cup come standard?


----------



## Zombie 222 (Jul 3, 2014)

samwichse said:


> Will the red solo cup come standard?


We're doing the cost analysis on it to see if there is enough margin in the price to include that luxury option


----------



## Zombie 222 (Jul 3, 2014)

Ok, now I've got time to upload some of the pictures about the rest of the drive train and rear suspension. 

Here are some of the new parts that enable the Zombie 222 to handle the massive torque and HP. The whole rear end area from from Street or Track except for the Strange center section. 









First thing to go in is the sub frame connector setup from TCP. Not only is there sub frame connectors, but it has an X brace and drive shaft collar as well. Installation was pretty easy and everything fit well. 









Now for assembling the floating Ford 9" with a Strange center section rated to drag racing level power and putting in the new floating housing with coil over suspension. 















Next put mount the whole rear end in the Zombie 222 















Next 13" brakes









All installed.









Let's not forget the new rack and pinion steering for front.


----------



## Hollie Maea (Dec 9, 2009)

What are the specs on that loner battery pack? And what are you going to put in it permanently?


----------



## Zombie 222 (Jul 3, 2014)

Hollie Maea said:


> What are the specs on that loner battery pack? And what are you going to put in it permanently?



I do not know the exact break down of the cells used or the P & S configuration, only that it is 1.5 Megawatt total and we had to use the Zillas to turn it down to about 1/2 for our first run. You can check out the pack at 

http://www.hightechsystemsllc.com/pt_Batterypacks.html

As far as what we are spec-ing in the Zombie 222s we produce, that is still under test. I can tell you right now, we believe we need at least 42Kwh total capacity, the ability to burst 3400-3600 Amps and 355volts for track runs so if I had to guess right now I would go with a Kokam 216UHP that is a 3.7 volt cell with a maximum discharge of 900 amps. We would need a 4P 96S setup with 384 cells. The problem is price. They are crazy crazy crazy expensive. Just the cells alone would be 60K. I am hoping that someone here will be able to help find a more affordable path to the type of numbers I need.


----------



## Hollie Maea (Dec 9, 2009)

Zombie 222 said:


> As far as what we are spec-ing in the Zombie 222s we produce, that is still under test. I can tell you right now, we believe we need at least 42Kwh total capacity, the ability to burst 3400-3600 Amps and 355volts for track runs so if I had to guess right now I would go with a Kokam 216UHP that is a 3.7 volt cell with a maximum discharge of 900 amps. We would need a 4P 96S setup with 384 cells. The problem is price. They are crazy crazy crazy expensive. Just the cells alone would be 60K. I am hoping that someone here will be able to help find a more affordable path to the type of numbers I need.


For power density, there isn't really anything that can compete with those Kokams. But another option that might work for you would be 18650s--there are a couple on the market that give remarkably high power. The best option would be the LG HE2 with the following specs:

2.5Ah capacity
35A peak
20A continuous
45 grams

The C rate is half what the Kokams are, but the energy density is so high that you only increase your weight by about 1/4 to hit the same power.

A 96S 96P pack would give you the power specs you need. The cell weight would increase from around 300kg to 400kg. I don't know if that would be a showstopper for you, but if so the Kokams are probably the only option. Volume would probably be about the same as the Kokams, as the 18650s are denser. 

So increased weight is the downside. On the upside, your pack would contain exactly twice the energy (240Ah vs 120Ah) than the 96S 4P Kokam pack. So there would be some benefit there. And the cost would be much lower. At the high volumes that a pack for even one car would require, I don't think you would pay more than 30K for the cells. Of course there would be some expense involved with getting them welded up into 96p cells, but it would still be much cheaper than 60K. And if you bought packs for several cars at once, the cell price could come down even more.

If that sounds like it could work for you, shoot me a PM and I can put you in contact with some people who could help you develop such a pack. If not, I'll keep racking my brain for another solution.


----------



## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

_As far as what we are spec-ing in the Zombie 222s we produce, that is still under test. I can tell you right now, we believe we need at least 42Kwh total capacity, the ability to burst 3400-3600 Amps and 355volts for track runs_

So you need 1278Kw for "burst" power
If you use a bigger pack you get more range + more power available
CALB cells are now 12C (burst) - so a 100Kwh CALB pack should meet your requirements

I believe TESLA go the large pack = sensible C rating route


----------



## Hollie Maea (Dec 9, 2009)

Duncan said:


> _As far as what we are spec-ing in the Zombie 222s we produce, that is still under test. I can tell you right now, we believe we need at least 42Kwh total capacity, the ability to burst 3400-3600 Amps and 355volts for track runs_
> 
> So you need 1278Kw for "burst" power
> If you use a bigger pack you get more range + more power available
> ...


CALBs are a non starter. Way too low power density. Power density is a function of C rate AND energy density. LiFePO4 has respectable C rating, but bad energy density. The power requirements could be met with a 108S 3P pack of CALB 100s but that would weigh 1100 kg, or 2400 pounds!

Tesla batteries have pretty low C rates, but exceedingly high energy density, which results in respectable power density. This project needs even higher power density.


----------



## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

Hollie Maea said:


> CALBs are a non starter. Way too low power density. Power density is a function of C rate AND energy density. LiFePO4 has respectable C rating, but bad energy density. The power requirements could be met with a 108S 3P pack of CALB 100s but that would weigh 1100 kg, or 2400 pounds!
> 
> Tesla batteries have pretty low C rates, but exceedingly high energy density, which results in respectable power density. This project needs even higher power density.


True the CALBs would weigh ~ 1000Kg which is 400Kg more than the Kokam's

But they would cost a LOT less and an extra 400Kg in a heavy car may not be a show stopper,

If I was doing this design I would be doing a lot of "what Ifs" and looking at things like reducing the power a bit
How much power can you actually put onto the ground??

The TESLA has incredible acceleration with 300Kw

Even with super sticky drag tires you don't need (and can't use) huge amounts of power until you reach high speeds

Example
2000kg car - 1g acceleration = 20,000N - force (super sticky drag tires)
At 20mph (9m/sec) = 180Kw
at 60mph (27m/sec) = 540Kw
at 100mph (44m/sec) = 880kw

So if you went for 800Kw you would need 666Kwhr (an auspicious number) and that would be about 600Kg

With road tires and two wheel drive (super sticky "road" tires)
2000kg car - 0.5g acceleration = 10,000N - force
At 20mph (9m/sec) = 90Kw
at 60mph (27m/sec) = 270Kw
at 100mph (44m/sec) = 440kw
at 150mph (66m/sec) = 660kw

So a 600Kw pack would not even reduce your acceleration until 150mph


----------



## Zombie 222 (Jul 3, 2014)

Wow, lot's of useful information here. Keep the help coming. I would LOVE to find an alternative to paying the crazy prices Kokom wants for their cells, but the specs are the specs. Here is more information. 

The battery pack wieght is a factor because the car needs to perform well on both street or track. I would have problems with anything over 1,000lbs. I spec-ed the suspension for 700lbs in the trunk area and 1,000 under the hood.

The power rating need to be at least 750HP and 1800 lb-ft torque to meet the following targets. 

The target 0-60 with street drag radials needs to be under 3 seconds. 
The target 1/4 track time needs to be in the 10s

Street driving range is 125 miles.

If we meet those goals, then top speed will be determined by gearing alone due to the massive torque and HP. 

Remember, this car has it's basic design philosophy from its namesake the White Zombie which runs twin 9" motors, 1 Zilla, 192 Dow Kokam lithium polymer cells contained in 12, 29.6V clear Lexan modules. Battery pack at 355V, capable of 2,400 amps discharges, and stores 22.7 kWh of energy.

The White Zombie can cruise 100 miles or run 0-60 in 1.8 seconds and does 10.2 1/4 mile. The Zombie 222 the big brother...

I keep hoping that since I am launching a very cool and usual high end vintage car business and not just building a car for myself that some battery company will want to work with me to get "endorsed" as the Zombie 222 batteries for full production. These will be the most powerful muscle cars ever seen and it would look good to the known as the power source behind that....


----------



## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

_The battery pack wieght is a factor because the car needs to perform well on both street or track. I would have problems with anything over 1,000lbs. I spec-ed the suspension for 700lbs in the trunk area and 1,000 under the hood.

The power rating need to be at least 750HP and 1800 lb-ft torque to meet the following targets. 

The target 0-60 with street drag radials needs to be under 3 seconds. 
The target 1/4 track time needs to be in the 10s

Street driving range is 125 miles.

_Ok 
750Hp is 562Kw
With CALB 562Kw would imply a 47Kwhr pack (12C burst)

At 300w/mile a 47Kwhr pack will do 156miles - at 80% discharge 125 miles
A 47Kwhr pack will be about 470Kg
If you need that much range then you need that big a pack - CALB look to be able to do it_ - 
_
_The White Zombie can cruise 100 miles
22.7 kWh of energy._

Those two do not go together 
22.7Kwhr = 18.16Kwhrs usable = 60 miles range - or maybe 73miles at 250watt-hours/mile

A really slippery car like the Insight may get down to 180whrs/mile - but it's not like the Zombie

_Tesla says the 60-kwh battery provides a range of up to 232 miles (the EPA pegs it at 208 miles), and the 85-kwh battery (a $10,000 option) provides up to 300 miles (the EPA puts it at *265 miles*)._

EPA usage = 60,000/208 = 288 watt-hours/mile - 
EPA usage = 85,000/265 = 320 watt-hours/mile

Tesla = 60,000/232 = 258 watt-hours/mile - 
Tesla = 85,000/300 = 283 watt-hours/mile

The bigger pack will be heavier so I would expect the car with the bigger pack to eat a bit more power/mile


----------



## Zombie 222 (Jul 3, 2014)

Duncan said:


> _The battery pack wieght is a factor because the car needs to perform well on both street or track. I would have problems with anything over 1,000lbs. I spec-ed the suspension for 700lbs in the trunk area and 1,000 under the hood.
> 
> The power rating need to be at least 750HP and 1800 lb-ft torque to meet the following targets.
> 
> ...



Is this the cell your are referring to?

_*China Aviation Lithium Battery Company CA100FI Series LiFePo4 Cell*_

This is the latest chemistry from CALB in a 100Ah format. 

Capacity: 100Ah nominal - most run 110-114 A
Voltage: 3.2
Charge Voltage: 3.6v - use 3.5v for series strings.
Discharge Cutoff: 2.50v
Standard Charge/Discharge: 0.3 C (33 amps).
Max Charge: 3C (300 amps)
Max Continuous Discharge: 3C - 300 amps.
10 second Discharge: 10C - 1000 amps.
Height: 8.5 inch/216mm
Width 5.5 inch/140 mm
Thickness: 2.64 inch/67mm
Weight: 7.5 lbs/3.4kg


----------



## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

Sounds like it

I had heard that CALB were a 12C burst (from EVTV)

- but it was more of an "example" of a current cell rather than a special (expensive) one

I am using Headway cells in mine,
My cells are rated at 15C
But the 16Ah cells I have are now obsolete

I think the Headway 8Ah cells are 20C - but you would then have a LOT of cells to hook up

I have had some cell failures 
and my 16Ah cells turned out to be more like 14.5Ah cells

but Headway have treated me very well replacing cells that failed 
and also giving me some cells to make up for the lack of capacity

I believe that CALB are becoming a "hobby standard" - and that they will meet your requirements

Headway will be more powerful (and about the same price) but also possibly more problematical


----------



## dougingraham (Jul 26, 2011)

Zombie 222 said:


> The problem is price. They are crazy crazy crazy expensive. Just the cells alone would be 60K. I am hoping that someone here will be able to help find a more affordable path to the type of numbers I need.


Unless Kokam has changed since Dow got away from them they have no interest in selling to non OEM's. The price they quote is the go away price. Most likely if you actually try to buy them there will be some other excuse for why they don't want to sell to you. I understand why the marketing people would give batteries to high profile places like White Zombie but the sales people would refuse to sell to DIY. They are trying to get the attention of OEM's.


----------



## Zombie 222 (Jul 3, 2014)

dougingraham said:


> Unless Kokam has changed since Dow got away from them they have no interest in selling to non OEM's. The price they quote is the go away price. Most likely if you actually try to buy them there will be some other excuse for why they don't want to sell to you. I understand why the marketing people would give batteries to high profile places like White Zombie but the sales people would refuse to sell to DIY. They are trying to get the attention of OEM's.


I can get the Kokam cells but it is hard. Which is very frustrating because I am trying to build a car business. The builder and owner of the White Zombie is my partner. I can't imagine a much more high-profile, sexy marketing for UHP cells than in the world's most powerful vintage muscle cars.


----------



## Zombie 222 (Jul 3, 2014)

Duncan said:


> Sounds like it
> 
> I had heard that CALB were a 12C burst (from EVTV)
> 
> ...



These are far too heavy and just as expensive as Kokam to me. By my math I would need a 4P 111S to meet or beat my specs and that is 444 cells at 7.5 lbs each (3,330 lb) and $140 a cell brings the total to $62,169. Even if I dropped the total AMP burst to 3000 I would need 333 (2,500 lb.) and totaling $46,620.


----------



## dougingraham (Jul 26, 2011)

Lets just assume you need a pack that can put out enough to drive two warp 11's at 200 volts and 2000 amps each. This is 200*4000 = 800kw. That will define the minimum size for the pack. You mention a 355 volt value. This would be 104 cells at full charge 3.4 volts of LiFe. If we assume a 25% sag and a nominal 3.2 volts this gives a full load voltage of 250 volts. The current gain in the controller dropping this to 200 volts that the motor can handle means that for 4000 motor amps the battery will see 3200 amps. So to attain a 10 C rating with the CALB CA cells would only require 3 100 AH cells in parallel. So a pack of these to conservatively make your goal would be 104S3P for 312 cells. This would be a pack of 99.8 kwh in size weighing more than 2340 lbs and cost around $40k. This pack would easily make the range goal but not the 10 sec drag time and the car would be a pig ending up at over 4000 lbs. Clearly this is not practical.

What about the new CALB CAM cells. They still have 10C but are more dense. You would need a 104S4P pack of the 80ah cells. This is 416 cells giving a capacity of 106.5 kwh and weighing over 1997 lbs. A little better but not nearly enough.

You need to find a 20C rated cell. Anything less will fall short. Almost all of the RC LiPo packs will do this. And the Kokams are just larger versions of the RC LiPo cells. However this will be labor intensive.

If you want to just buy a solution look at the Enerdel modules. They are 15C rated. You would need something like 7S7P modules for a pack of 68.7 kwh at a weight of something over 1617 lbs. In that quantity I found one price for $1379 and the total pack would cost $67.8k with shipping. If you go into production you can probably get these directly from Enerdel at a some sort of discount.

Unless you are going to put in an active cooling system I don't suggest the 18650 type cells. All the above you can pretty easily get away from any kind of cooling and even avoid a BMS. This is because the pack will be oversized enough that unless you are doing back to back 1/4 mile runs there wont be enough heat generated. The 18650's types require active cooling and monitoring to ensure you don't have an event which burns the car to the ground. Also they make using the RC packs seem like childs play on the engineering level.

I look forward to seeing this car running!


----------



## Hollie Maea (Dec 9, 2009)

dougingraham said:


> Unless you are going to put in an active cooling system I don't suggest the 18650 type cells. All the above you can pretty easily get away from any kind of cooling and even avoid a BMS. This is because the pack will be oversized enough that unless you are doing back to back 1/4 mile runs there wont be enough heat generated. The 18650's types require active cooling and monitoring to ensure you don't have an event which burns the car to the ground. Also they make using the RC packs seem like childs play on the engineering level.


Of course you would have active cooling and BMS. What's wrong with that? Yes, it requires some upfront engineering work, but all good things do. Would it be worth it to have a cooling system to save 1000 pounds? Only the OP can say for sure, but I would think so.


----------



## Zombie 222 (Jul 3, 2014)

Paint work for the new Zombie 222 "trademark" shock green stripes....

First black base coat....









Now the stripes and clear coat..









Now check to see if the actual hood makes the marketing t-shirt and poster concept designed months ago. Yep!


----------



## Zombie 222 (Jul 3, 2014)

Hollie Maea said:


> Of course you would have active cooling and BMS. What's wrong with that? Yes, it requires some upfront engineering work, but all good things do. Would it be worth it to have a cooling system to save 1000 pounds? Only the OP can say for sure, but I would think so.


We will have to address cooling no matter what. The primary storage area will be the trunk in a black car in Texas at car shows and tracks.


----------



## Zombie 222 (Jul 3, 2014)

Zombie 222 said:


> We will have to address cooling no matter what. The primary storage area will be the trunk in a black car in Texas at car shows and tracks.


We are also going to have to use a super simple, bullet proof BMS because the typical buyer will not want to be bothered with complex configuration and reporting. Plug in it when it tells you it needs its, leave it there and unplug it at anytime and go.....

We have much to solve ....


----------



## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

Zombie 222 said:


> These are far too heavy and just as expensive as Kokam to me. By my math I would need a 4P 111S to meet or beat my specs and that is 444 cells at 7.5 lbs each (3,330 lb) and $140 a cell brings the total to $62,169. Even if I dropped the total AMP burst to 3000 I would need 333 (2,500 lb.) and totaling $46,620.


Your maths is suspect 
Its easy
You want 750Kw - 
The cells are capable of 10C 
Therefore you need 750/10 = 75Kwhrs

200Ah x 375v
118S x 2P - 236 cells = 1700lbs


Your batteries DO NOT need to be able to match your MOTOR current requirements 
Your controllers are Power In = Power Out devices

Very Very Rough example - one 11 inch motor
Static - 1000 amps motor x 15v = 330v battery x 45 amps battery
1000rpm - 1000 amps motor x 65v = 330v battery x 197 amps battery
3000rpm - 1000 amps motor x 165v = 330v battery x 500 amps battery
4000rpm - 1000 amps motor x 215v = 330v battery x 650 amps battery

You may be able to feed 3000amps into your motors - 
but you don't need 3000 amps from your batteries
(wonderful but true)

You need to size your batteries to match the maximum power and to match the required range

If 750Kw is enough (1000hp) then a 75Kwhrs CALB pack will do

You can go Headway (20C) - which would allow a 37.5Kw pack 
But your range would be less - about 100 miles ((37500 x 0.8) /300)

The problem would be many more connections because the individual cells are so much smaller


----------



## Zombie 222 (Jul 3, 2014)

Duncan said:


> Your maths is suspect
> Its easy
> You want 750Kw -
> The cells are capable of 10C
> ...


This whole area is still new to me and not intuitive yet. I wish there were a simple excel spread sheet where you can slice and dice many different ways to do the math. I was told that by spec-ing in the two Warp 11 motors and the two Zillas that I would get 750HP, 1800 lb-ft of torque and a street drive range pf 125 mile with the right battery pack. Who ever knew that even understanding what the pack must look like would be so difficult and confusing. I promise I am not totally stupid (the wife would have a different opinion) and I am sure that I will get this down soon. 

To achieve the goal of 750HP, 1800 lb-ft torque and 125 miles cruising range with 2 11 warps motors and 2 zillas in a 1968 fatback, what should the pack be spec wise? And please the assumptions behind the math if you don't mind...


----------



## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

Hi
I will try to explain
(It took me quite a while to understand)

OK we have energy - Kilowatthours = 1 kilowatt for one hour
or watt hours
Depending on the car and the speed it takes from 200 - 400 watt hours to go 1 mile,
a rough guide is car weight (lbs)/10 = watt hours/mile
(really mixing the units!!)

so assuming a 3000lb car - 300 watthours/mile = 30kwhours for 100 miles
You can't (shouldn't) discharge your battery 100% - 80% is normal
so 30kwhours/0.8 = 37.5 Kwhrs for 100 miles

Now we go to power - Kilowatts 

If a battery can do 10C it can empty itself in 1/10th of an hour
so 37.5Kwhrs at 10C = 375Kw
Most batteries can only do that for a few seconds (10) - but that is all you need for a drag - and all your motors can take

so if you have a 75Kwhr 10C pack it will be able to produce 750Kw - for long enough to toast your motors

DC Motors 
It only takes a few volts to push large amounts of current through the resistance of a motor
20v for 1500 amps is a rough guess

As the motor spins it develops a back EMF which resists the flow,
This is proportional to rpm and current

Your throttle is effectively a demand for current - if you have set up with 3000amps as full then half will be 1500amps

controllers act by controlling the voltage across the motor until the measured current equals your demand

Roughly - torque is proportional to current

So when stationary you go to full power your controller will give enough volts to drive 1500amps about 20v (each motor)
Motor = 20v x 1500amps = 30Kw = Battery 330v x 90amps (each motor)

at 1000rpm you will have ~ 60v back EMF
Motor = 80v x 1500amps = 120Kw = Battery 330v x 363amps (each motor)

at 2000rpm you will have ~ 120v back EMF
Motor = 140v x 1500amps = 210Kw = Battery 330v x 690amps (each motor)

at 3000rpm you will have ~ 180v back EMF
Motor = 200v x 1500amps = 300Kw = Battery 330v x 909amps (each motor)

at 4000rpm you will have ~ 240v back EMF
Motor = 260v x 1500amps = 390Kw = more than half of 750kw - so you will have to reduce current

at 4000rpm you will have ~ 240v back EMF
Motor = 260v x *1440*amps = 375Kw = 330v x 1136amps (each motor)

As you can see you don't pull the max current from the battery until your revs get up there

Your car
4000lbs???
400 watts/mile - 125 miles = 50Kwhrs - 62.5Kwhrs (80% discharge)
You want 750Kw
So with CALBS you need a slightly bigger pack - 75Kwhrs (10C gives 750Kw)
If you use 100Ah
330v = 330/3.2 = 104 series
75Kwhrs/330v = 227ah - not a good number in 100Ah bits
75Kwhrs/200Ah (2 off 100ah) = 375v
375v / 3.2 = 118 in series
118 x 3.5v (fully charged) = 413v - can the Zilla's do that??
or use three in parallel - 300ah - 250v - 250/3.2= 79 in series
79 x 3.5 = 276v fully charged

so either 3P x 79S = 237 cells - 1777lbs
or 2P x 118S = 236 cells
The lower voltage one will limit your power at the top end

Other option
Headway - 8Ah - 20C

Now you can use a smaller pack - BUT if you want the same range not much smaller
62.5Kw 
You will have 62.5 x 20 = 1250Kw available - a good bit more
*But you will have to deal with
(62.5 x 1000) / (3.2 x 8) = 2,441 cells
*
The smaller cells mean that you have more flexibility in voltage - but your BMS may become more complex

I hope this helps - ask me if you want me to explain any more


----------



## Zombie 222 (Jul 3, 2014)

Duncan said:


> Hi
> I will try to explain
> (It took me quite a while to understand)
> 
> ...


Which CALBS cell are you referring to? I can't find a 100Ah 10C cell to price.


----------



## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

This one - you referenced earler_


Is this the cell your are referring to?

*China Aviation Lithium Battery Company CA100FI Series LiFePo4 Cell*

This is the latest chemistry from CALB in a *100Ah* format. 

Capacity: 100Ah nominal - most run 110-114 A
Voltage: 3.2
Charge Voltage: 3.6v - use 3.5v for series strings.
Discharge Cutoff: 2.50v
Standard Charge/Discharge: 0.3 C (33 amps).
Max Charge: 3C (300 amps)
Max Continuous Discharge: 3C - 300 amps.
*10 second Discharge: 10C - 1000 amps.*
Height: 8.5 inch/216mm
Width 5.5 inch/140 mm
Thickness: 2.64 inch/67mm
Weight: 7.5 lbs/3.4kg _


----------



## dougingraham (Jul 26, 2011)

Zombie 222 said:


> To achieve the goal of 750HP, 1800 lb-ft torque and 125 miles cruising range with 2 11 warps motors and 2 zillas in a 1968 fatback, what should the pack be spec wise? And please the assumptions behind the math if you don't mind...


Worse still is the question, at what point are you talking about the 750HP? 750HP into the motors? 750HP out of the motors? 750 HP at the wheels? These are very different beasts and the easiest to measure is the power into the motors.

750 HP into the motors is 559500 watts. And since you have two motors each needs to do half of this. So each motor needs 279750 watts. Since you decided on two controllers as well lets look at what it takes to get to that level. Even more important than peak HP is torque in determining the way the car feels when you drive it. You have a controller and motor that can do up to 2000 amps briefly. This is maximum torque. It is also where everything generates the most heat. To get that 279750 watts at 2000 amps would require at least 139.9 volts. Your motors as they come from the factory can safely do 172 volts. Replacing the brush holders can push that up to 200 volts at a cost of a couple thousand per motor. So lets just work with 172 volts as it is probably enough for your project. You have a 355 volt battery. If you calculate without sag 139.9 motor volts * 2000 motor amps / 355 battery volts = 788 battery amps. As a sanity check 788 battery amps * 355 battery volts = 279.74 kw where the difference is from rounding error. Since you have two motors you need a 355 volt battery with the capability of doing 2 * 788 = 1576 amps. Here are the problems with the above calculation. The battery will sag under load. The CALB CA cells about 15%. Other types sag more. The ones I am using are closer to 25%. This means your 355 volt battery will drop to between 302 volts (15%) and 266 (25% sag). 139.9 motor volts * 2000 motor amps / 266 battery volts = 1052 battery amps. And for two motors this means 2104 total battery amps. But wait there is more. The motor controllers are this power level are probably 95% efficient so you need to jack this up by 5% meaning 2104 / 0.95 = 2215 total battery amps.

Now the good news. The only time you ever pull those kinds of battery amps are when you have reached the peak HP point. And that occurs only at the point where the torque starts to taper off and you would shift up. When you are standing still and the motors are pulling 2000 amps the battery amps will be pretty minimal. So unless you are on a drag strip you will see only very short times when the battery amps are at the aforementioned levels. Probably speeds in excess of 100 mph. This is going to depend on your final drive ratio and tire diameter.

The above pretty well covers the power into the motors situation. If you want wheel horse power you need to take into account the losses in the motors and I am sorry to say they can typically be as much as 40% at these power levels. You also need to take into account the power loss in the transmission and the power loss in the differential. The losses in the transmission you are using could be as much as 5%. And similar losses in the diff. So to get 750 wheel horse power which is what you would measure on a dyno you approximately need to double the power into the motors.

Since this car is not a purpose built dragster I would advertise 750 HP into the motors. This is easy to measure and the Zilla logging probably will give you the numbers directly. The car will be plenty fast enough to impress just about anyone.


----------



## Zombie 222 (Jul 3, 2014)

dougingraham said:


> Worse still is the question, at what point are you talking about the 750HP? 750HP into the motors? 750HP out of the motors? 750 HP at the wheels? These are very different beasts and the easiest to measure is the power into the motors.
> 
> 750 HP into the motors is 559500 watts. And since you have two motors each needs to do half of this. So each motor needs 279750 watts. Since you decided on two controllers as well lets look at what it takes to get to that level. Even more important than peak HP is torque in determining the way the car feels when you drive it. You have a controller and motor that can do up to 2000 amps briefly. This is maximum torque. It is also where everything generates the most heat. To get that 279750 watts at 2000 amps would require at least 139.9 volts. Your motors as they come from the factory can safely do 172 volts. Replacing the brush holders can push that up to 200 volts at a cost of a couple thousand per motor. So lets just work with 172 volts as it is probably enough for your project. You have a 355 volt battery. If you calculate without sag 139.9 motor volts * 2000 motor amps / 355 battery volts = 788 battery amps. As a sanity check 788 battery amps * 355 battery volts = 279.74 kw where the difference is from rounding error. Since you have two motors you need a 355 volt battery with the capability of doing 2 * 788 = 1576 amps. Here are the problems with the above calculation. The battery will sag under load. The CALB CA cells about 15%. Other types sag more. The ones I am using are closer to 25%. This means your 355 volt battery will drop to between 302 volts (15%) and 266 (25% sag). 139.9 motor volts * 2000 motor amps / 266 battery volts = 1052 battery amps. And for two motors this means 2104 total battery amps. But wait there is more. The motor controllers are this power level are probably 95% efficient so you need to jack this up by 5% meaning 2104 / 0.95 = 2215 total battery amps.
> 
> ...



Very well written and addresses the power requirement for HP and torque, but 2215 battery amps at 355 volts will not get me the 125 mile range will it?


----------



## major (Apr 4, 2008)

Zombie 222 said:


> Very well written and addresses the power requirement for HP and torque, but 2215 battery amps at 355 volts will not get me the 125 mile range will it?


Doug's post addresses power. Range is determined with energy. Volts times Amperes gives you Watts which is power. The energy is measured in Watt-hours (Wh or kWh). At a known battery voltage, that then is dependent on Ampere-hours (Ah).

To determine your range, or determine the required battery energy to accomplish a desired range, you must know or estimate your energy usage or Watt-hours per mile (Wh/mi). That depends on vehicle characteristics, drive cycle and conditions.


----------



## dougingraham (Jul 26, 2011)

Zombie 222 said:


> Very well written and addresses the power requirement for HP and torque, but 2215 battery amps at 355 volts will not get me the 125 mile range will it?


Your application has two different goals. You want to go 125 miles on a charge. And you want to do a 10 sec quarter mile. As it turns out if you can do the 10 sec quarter with regular LiFe batteries then the 125 mile range is already addressed. Lets continue making assumptions. You can correct if you know the real answer. The weight of the car is extremely important in the range calculation.

Estimated weight of car without batteries 2200 lbs.
The 125 mile range is for typical mixed driving on normal roads in the US, driving in a manner that will not catch the attention of the police.

With those two assumptions we can expect that with an 800 lb battery your car will probably use 300 watt hours per mile. 300 * 125 miles means we need a battery pack with 37500 watt hours (wh) or 37.5 kilowatt hours (kwh). A 37.5kwh battery at 355 volts would need to have an amp hour rating of 105.6 AH. That size cell doesn't exist so you can lower the pack voltage which increases the AH needed. If we use 180 AH cells we only need 208 volts (65 cells in series). This will work voltage wise because a 15% voltage sag of a 208 volt cell is 177 volts which is well above the 139.9 volts needed to reach your 750 hp at 2000 amps from my previous
posting. A 180 AH equivalent cell can do 1800 amps for 10 seconds safely. With the current amplification you get from the voltage drop of 177 battery volts to the 139.9 motor volts you could expect to see that battery pack deliver 177 * 2000 / 139.9 = 2530 amps. More than you need for a single motor but not enough for two. With that 37.5kwh pack you would be limited to 354 kw (474 hp) into the motors. Duncan calculated the pack size you need to reach your 750 hp in a previous posting. My 37.5 kwh pack size calculation does not include the 20% extra that is normally added in to double the lifetime of the pack.

The more I think about this the less certain I am that you will end up with a car that will handle well using prismatic LiFe cells. It will be straight line fast but too heavy to go around corners. You can build a drag racing pack out of RC LiPo cells that will do the 1/4 mile If you use those types of batteries you only need 25 AH (65C continuous rating) and 355 volts (96S) for a pack that will put out your 750 HP. That is a pack of only 8.88 kwh and will weigh a little over 150 lbs. With that pack in it the car would only weigh 2350 lbs (less than the original weight) and would have a range of around 37 miles. But at that weight it would be very quick! You would need three of these packs to reach your range goal so 450 lbs. But the advantage is your batteries are loafing at the power levels you want and even if the 65C claim is excessive you are only demanding 22C and that is well within reason.


----------



## Hollie Maea (Dec 9, 2009)

dougingraham said:


> The more I think about this the less certain I am that you will end up with a car that will handle well using prismatic LiFe cells. It will be straight line fast but too heavy to go around corners. You can build a drag racing pack out of RC LiPo cells that will do the 1/4 mile If you use those types of batteries you only need 25 AH (65C continuous rating) and 355 volts (96S) for a pack that will put out your 750 HP. That is a pack of only 8.88 kwh and will weigh a little over 150 lbs. With that pack in it the car would only weigh 2350 lbs (less than the original weight) and would have a range of around 37 miles. But at that weight it would be very quick! You would need three of these packs to reach your range goal so 450 lbs. But the advantage is your batteries are loafing at the power levels you want and even if the 65C claim is excessive you are only demanding 22C and that is well within reason.


I still maintain that the high power 18650s are the best compromise, even though they would take the most upfront engineering work.

Let's consider desired energy and power and see what limit we bump against first (with LiFePO4 we run out of power first, with high power LiPos we run out of energy first).

Goal of 125 miles:

Assuming 3 miles/kWh for this big heavy car, we would need 42 kWh

Goal of 750 hp (559kW):

Well, these cells are 14C, so discounting sag, 42kWh would be 588kW. So actually we are pretty closely matched on the range we want and the power we want. In other words, the cells aren't skewed too far on the energy side or on the power side.

Here's where it gets good:

The cells are very dense. Let's go with a 45kWh pack to give us a little margin. Each cell has an energy of 9 Wh (3.6V*2.5Ah). The weight is 45 grams. So it's 5 grams per watt hour or 5 kilograms per kilowatt hour. Doing the math, our 45 kWh pack is 225kg or 495 pounds. That's doable.

Compare the other two options, CALBs and Kokams, for the same sized pack. Keep in mind that the Kokams would supply you with twice as much power (30C) and the CALBs wouldn't quite supply you with enough power (we'll be generous and say 12C)

Kokams:

From the data sheet, the 216uhps are 132wh/kg. This is equal to 7.57kg/kWh. So, our 45kWh pack weighs 340kg or 749 pounds. Still doable. We now have twice the power we need, but we can't just make a smaller pack without losing our range.

CALBs:

180Ah cells are 576Wh (3.2V*180Ah) and weigh 5600 grams. That gives us 9.7kg/kWh Our 45kWh pack weighs 436kg or 960 pounds. And doesn't quite give enough power. IMO, that's too heavy.


Now, let's talk about cost.

CALBs win, hands down. You can get them in bulk for about a dollar an amp hour, and they are super easy to turn into a pack. String fewer than a hundred together with copper busbars and you're done. You probably can even get away with no BMS if you wanted to.

Kokams. Well, you know the price of the Kokams. That preternatural power delivery capability comes at a cost.

18650s. Not as expensive as you think. Buying them at bulk, you can get commodity prices at not much higher than a dollar an amp hour. Since they are higher voltage than CALBs, the cell cost ends up being about the same. On the other hand, they are the hardest to work with. They require a lot of upfront engineering design work (of course, the Kokams would need almost as much, and the CALBs would need a little). That's a one time cost though. In addition, you have to weld a few thousand of them together for each pack, so there is a labor cost there. Still much cheaper than the Kokams, but definitely not as cheap as the CALBs.

DISCLOSURE: I work with a company that does all of the work you need. We have a liquid cooling solution, an OEM style no fuss BMS, good packaging design and a source for cells. We can even weld packs for you if you don't want to do it yourself. But I'm not pushing them because I want to sell you packs--just from my perspective it seems like a good solution. If there is a better solution, I'll be the first to urge you to go with that. If you can get Kokam to sponsor you and cut the cell prices in half (which probably isn't out of the question) then by all means do that...there just isn't any competition for their power ratings, which is important for your project. I wouldn't consider CALBs or other LiFePO4 solutions though. They are the BEST hobby solution--cheap, easy and robust. But your project isn't a hobby, and they are simply too heavy for what you need.


----------



## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

There are a couple factors that haven't been mentioned for all of those theoretical packs - *cycle life* and *charging rate*. Questions like:



How many times the pack can be discharged/charged before losing capacity/performance?
What's the replacement cost/frequency/expectation of the buyer in this regard?
What's the fastest rate can it be charged?
How will fast charging affect pack life and health?
How will rapid discharge affect cycle life?
Etc, etc...


----------



## skooler (Mar 26, 2011)

My two cents.... re-read the (excellent) posts on calculations for required power and energy based on your goals.

In my opinion, prismatic cells such as CALB, Sinopoly or hipower should be a good match and more than suitable. There is a slight compromise on weight but I'm not convinced this will have a huge impact.

EVTV seem to think the new CALB CAM cells are pretty good for this kind of application but I think there is some bias there....

Efforts are much better placed on reducing drag than they are on weight reduction in my opinion.


----------



## Hollie Maea (Dec 9, 2009)

skooler said:


> My two cents.... re-read the (excellent) posts on calculations for required power and energy based on your goals.
> 
> In my opinion, prismatic cells such as CALB, Sinopoly or hipower should be a good match and more than suitable. There is a slight compromise on weight but I'm not convinced this will have a huge impact.
> 
> ...


CALB CAMs are no good, because they only hit 8C power output. So to get the 750 hp, you would need a 70kWh pack. That would be nice for range, but too heavy. The CALB CAMs are 8.47 Kg/ kWh, so your 70 kWh pack would weigh 593 kg, or 1300 pounds. That's more than a "slight" compromise on weight!


----------



## skooler (Mar 26, 2011)

Where has the 8c number come from on the CAMs? I'm aware of the 12c testing on the CA cells


----------



## Hollie Maea (Dec 9, 2009)

skooler said:


> Where has the 8c number come from on the CAMs? I'm aware of the 12c testing on the CA cells


I just pulled that from Jack's site. He seems to be the main person who has investigated them so far.


----------



## Yabert (Feb 7, 2010)

Zombie 222 said:


> someone here will be able to help find a more affordable path to the type of numbers I need.


So, what about using 3 Chevy Volt battery?
48 Kwh, 355v 135Ah, water cool, just over 1000 lbs if the battery box are well build.... and the better, potentially costing under 5K$ for slightly used cells!


----------



## Zombie 222 (Jul 3, 2014)

Not enough power for the HP and Torque I need for the track.


----------



## dougingraham (Jul 26, 2011)

Yabert said:


> So, what about using 3 Chevy Volt battery?
> 48 Kwh, 355v 135Ah, water cool, just over 1000 lbs if the battery box are well build.... and the better, potentially costing under 5K$ for slightly used cells!


Not appropriate for the 750 HP requirement. I think you need to pull too many amps for the Volt pack. To get 750 hp out of the battery you need to pull 1576 amps unsagged. If it sags 25% under that load you have 266 volts and at that voltage you need 2103 amps. You probably have to go to 4 packs to get the specific output. At that weight you probably need the additional capacity. Look at it this way. The Volt does 111kw so we are asking for 5 times that output in this car. Eliminating all the safety margins means you can probably do it with only four times the batteries instead of 5 times.

Trying to do both a 10 sec quarter and get the long range in what I assume he wants to be a daily driver is tough. White Zombie was in the 10's but it was hardly a daily driver and this is a heavier car equipped with heavier components.


----------



## Zombie 222 (Jul 3, 2014)

To do both, all roads seem to keep leading back Kokam $$$$.

Have someone new to this space, you guys consider a car with 125 Miles range a daily driver?


----------



## arklan (Dec 10, 2012)

if u had to do 100-125 miles every day imagine how much money u would save on fuel by driving an ev


----------



## major (Apr 4, 2008)

Zombie 222 said:


> Have someone new to this space, you guys consider a car with 125 Miles range a daily driver?


Typical car leases give you 10,000 or 12,000 miles per year. That averages out to 30 to 40 miles daily. My little EV is a daily driver. It was advertized at 100 mile range in the city. We do country driving and realize more like 75 mile full charge range in summer without A/C. Normal commute is about 40 miles daily with no problem and charging overnight in my garage. We use it like 6 days a week. 

125 miles would be a nice EV range to have but may not be necessary. Then again, when you use A/C, figure a 20 to 30% range reduction. Also, driving into a strong wind can bump up those Wh/mi.


----------



## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Zombie 222 said:


> ...Have someone new to this space, you guys consider a car with 125 Miles range a daily driver?


My typical is ~30 miles per day, some days less. I think 125 is a decent number to shoot for because there are those days where it's needed. Saturday, my plans for the day would have been around 40-50 miles total, but a couple unexpected additions put me right around 120 miles, and I never left the metro area. I would have been glued to the SOC gauge by the time I got home. I would have needed Level II to get any meaningful charge, because I wasn't in any single place for long.

One opportunity was a shop, with plenty of 220/30-50 amp outlets, if I would have had the right adapters. The second was a public charging station (if there wasn't the normal Chevy Volt tethered to it) with, I think, the J-1772 plug. Both would have had to add a decent amount of charge in ~2 hours.





major said:


> ...125 miles would be a nice EV range to have but may not be necessary. Then again, when you use A/C, figure a 20 to 30% range reduction. Also, driving into a strong wind can bump up those Wh/mi.


I used A/C all day Saturday too (ICE car), and would have been really miserable in traffic without it, but could have survived.

Comparable to A/C (or worse) is the _need_ to feel the acceleration in a car like you're building/selling. I wouldn't expect the average buyer to drive like I was in my little Saturn sedan Saturday, or the typical EV driver does on a daily basis; purposely trying to conserve energy. So, that 125mi goal should give reasonable "heavy right foot range", plus a full day out if you can manage to putt around.


----------



## dougingraham (Jul 26, 2011)

Zombie 222 said:


> To do both, all roads seem to keep leading back Kokam $$$$.
> 
> Have someone new to this space, you guys consider a car with 125 Miles range a daily driver?


Nothing special about Kokam. There are other companies who don't want to do business and have a usable product. Any battery that can do 15C or more burst rating could be used for your project. This means almost any LiPo pouch cell. A123 20 AH cell would have worked if they were available. Probably the CALB 25 AH CAM cell would work as I think it has a 15C rating but I can't seem to find a spec sheet for it. My google fu is not good today apparently.

I consider a car with a 125 mile range a daily driver for people with bad range anxiety. It isn't enough range to take a real trip and it is way more than most people need to do a daily commute. And for people with really strong range anxiety a 125 mile range just isn't enough. Why that is almost like having an empty gas tank in their ICE.


----------



## major (Apr 4, 2008)

dougingraham said:


> A123 20 AH cell would have worked if they were available.


They are available and I am told these are factory fresh (the real factory). Only $70/cell 
http://www.buya123batteries.com/AMP20M1HD_A_Lithium_Ion_Prismatic_Pouch_p/300386-003a1.htm


----------



## dougingraham (Jul 26, 2011)

arklan said:


> if u had to do 100-125 miles every day imagine how much money u would save on fuel by driving an ev


Don't have to imagine. A car like this one would be lucky to get 20 mpg in ICE format. Cost to do 100 miles at $4 per gallon would be $20. At 300 wh per mile and electricity cost of 0.12 dollars per kwh we have 30000 wh or 30kwh of electricity times 0.12 = $3.60 or a savings of $16.4 per day. Lets assume 50 weeks per year and 5 days per week gives a savings per year of $4100 per year. You could also add in the cost of the 8 oil changes you didn't have to do.


----------



## Zombie 222 (Jul 3, 2014)

Thanks for all of the insight into the EV world's view on daily driver and range. Given that this is a very high end collectable muscle car, it MUST have AC and other power options and the 67/68 aerodynamics can't really be changed if I want to keep the car appearance as close to stock as possible. 

We may build a removable air box system for underneath for high speed runs at the Texas Mile, but other than a chin spoiler, no other mods are planned. We felt the 125 mile range was the right target for someone to feel comfortable driving to a car show and back, out to dinner to show the car off and then to local track for some fun. Most tracks will let you hook up for a little juice after a run or two, so getting home shouldn't be a problem. 

I'm going to dig up a few pictures of the paint scheme we settled on and did for the first showing. (temporary paint job since I will tear it down and do it show car level for SEMA)


----------



## Zombie 222 (Jul 3, 2014)

major said:


> They are available and I am told these are factory fresh (the real factory). Only $70/cell
> http://www.buya123batteries.com/AMP20M1HD_A_Lithium_Ion_Prismatic_Pouch_p/300386-003a1.htm


The spec sheet doesn't have the 10 second discard rating so I can't really tell if these will discard enough for the track runs. Am I missing something on the sheet?


----------



## Zombie 222 (Jul 3, 2014)

Here is car drying in the booth after the painting.


----------



## major (Apr 4, 2008)

Zombie 222 said:


> The spec sheet doesn't have the 10 second discard rating so I can't really tell if these will discard enough for the track runs. Am I missing something on the sheet?


Click on the data sheet link: http://assets.buya123batteries.com/images/a123/AMP20_data_sheet.pdf It has the 10 second pulse graph. Discharge is in the 1200 to 1400 Watt range. At 3.3V/c that is about 400A or 20C. 

Or just round off to one kW per cell. Then, say, 600 kW will take 600 cells. Or $42k. 

Energy wise, you got 65 Wh/cell so 600 cells is 39kWh.

Mass is about 0.5kg/cell. So about 300kg total.


----------



## dougingraham (Jul 26, 2011)

major said:


> They are available and I am told these are factory fresh (the real factory). Only $70/cell


$70 per cell? I might pay $40. I know that for a while you could get them from the China sources for under $30.

And by the real factory do you mean the one in Livonia MI or the one in South Korea?


----------



## major (Apr 4, 2008)

dougingraham said:


> $70 per cell? I might pay $40. I know that for a while you could get them from the China sources for under $30.
> 
> And by the real factory do you mean the one in Livonia MI or the one in South Korea?


My understanding is the Livonia plant.

Recently these cells from any other source have been a quality nightmare. 

There's been a few on this board who have bought them. Maybe they can chime in. I've never bought any. But I did help build some batteries using them, or actually the forerunner, like an 18Ah cell, used in the Lightning bike seen in my avatar. When genuine A123 quality, a hellof a good cell


----------



## Zombie 222 (Jul 3, 2014)

major said:


> My understanding is the Livonia plant.
> 
> Recently these cells from any other source have been a quality nightmare.
> 
> There's been a few on this board who have bought them. Maybe they can chime in. I've never bought any. But I did help build some batteries using them, or actually the forerunner, like an 18Ah cell, used in the Lightning bike seen in my avatar. When genuine A123 quality, a hellof a good cell


I am very interested in these cells. Thanks for bringing them to my attention Major. Now, I need to under supply, costs for 600+ etc.. Anyone who knows the answers, please jump in.... The date on the sheet was prior to the bankruptcy I think so I worry a bit.


----------



## major (Apr 4, 2008)

Zombie 222 said:


> I am very interested in these cells. Thanks for bringing them to my attention Major. Now, I need to under supply, costs for 600+ etc.. Anyone who knows the answers, please jump in.... The date on the sheet was prior to the bankruptcy I think so I worry a bit.


It is the same cell. I suggest you contact the place. 

Here's another power cell which I like: http://evolveelectrics.com/Enerdel_MP320-049_Moxie.html


----------



## Hollie Maea (Dec 9, 2009)

Biggest thing to look out for with the A123s...there are a ton of rejects with welded tabs that the Chinese are trying to unload right now. If you get some great prices offered, thefts probably what will show up in the mail.


----------



## Yabert (Feb 7, 2010)

Zombie 222 said:


> Not enough power for the HP and *Torque I need for the track*.


False... you will be able to obtain all the torque your motors can generate up to the peak torque who will be the peak power point.

And about the peak power capability of the Volt pack, who really test the peak power of those cells? Discharging few sec* at 15C don't seem unrealistic for this pack. Especially because of his water cooling capacity will protect the cells from overheating.
Well, at my opinion, you should at least try to find the peak power capacity of one Volt pack (or at lease a cell) before rejecting this potential 48 Kwh, 600-700 hp capable(maybe) battery pack at 5000$ 


*Please remember that you don't build a 25K lbs truck and few second of peak battery power will give you insane speed!


----------



## Yabert (Feb 7, 2010)

Another point...
What do you think is the more attractive for most customer:

1300 lbs-ft, 600 hp muscle car for 50 000$ (low cost Volt battery)
or
1300 lbs-ft, 750 hp muscle car for 100 000$ (high end battery)

Don't forget to considering the exactly same acceleration for 80% of the acceleration time... think about that!
Wish you best luck and continued to share awesome pictures


----------



## skooler (Mar 26, 2011)

Not sure if it works with the zillas but with the solitons you can run the pack at a much higher voltage than the motor and still have all the power available to the motor. doing that with lower cost batteries could be a good workaround. You still have the same motor current available but the battery current is much lower.


----------



## Zombie 222 (Jul 3, 2014)

major said:


> It is the same cell. I suggest you contact the place.
> 
> Here's another power cell which I like: http://evolveelectrics.com/Enerdel_MP320-049_Moxie.html


By my math, I would need a 7P 8S to get the max discharge of 3500amps and voltage to 355 so this would be a total of 56 modules. 1,848 in weight and at $1379 per module a total cost of $77,224. 

Even if I dropped the total max discharge to 3000amp I would 6p 8s at 48 modules. Weight of 1584 and cost of $66,192.


----------



## major (Apr 4, 2008)

Zombie 222 said:


> By my math, I would need a 7P 8S to get the max discharge of 3500amps and voltage to 355 so this would be a total of 56 modules. 1,848 in weight and at $1379 per module a total cost of $77,224.
> 
> Even if I dropped the total max discharge to 3000amp I would 6p 8s at 48 modules. Weight of 1584 and cost of $66,192.


8S = ~45V * 8 = 360V. 15C at 32Ah is 480A/module * 7P = 3360A. This is 1.2MW or 1621hp (elect) at the battery.

45V nominal times 480A peak = 21.6kW peak power per module. Using that 600kW figure, you need about 30 modules. $41,370. Each module is 1.44kWh, so a total energy of 43.2kWh. 450kg which includes packaging. Bare cells weigh 309kg.

Nice little battery


----------



## dougingraham (Jul 26, 2011)

skooler said:


> Not sure if it works with the zillas but with the solitons you can run the pack at a much higher voltage than the motor and still have all the power available to the motor. doing that with lower cost batteries could be a good workaround. You still have the same motor current available but the battery current is much lower.


This works with the Zillas as well. Any DC motor controller will have this characteristic. I included this in my calculations.

Assumptions:

Battery voltage: 355 volts (Max usable Zilla voltage maybe?)
Motor current: 2000 amps (Zilla will do 2000 amps. Maximize torque.)
Motor voltage: 139.9 volts (voltage to attain 1/2 of 750hp at 2000 amps)

139.9 * 2000 / 355 = 788 battery amps.

So at 355 volts (neglecting battery sag) you need 1576 amps (2 * 788). Battery sag will push this number up so this is an optimistic value. This calculation assumes a 25% sag under full load.

Battery voltage: 266 volts (This is about the most you would want to do.)
Motor current: 2000 amps
Motor voltage: 139.9 volts

139.9 * 2000 / 266 = 1052 battery amps.

So with sagged voltage you need a battery that will produce 2104 amps in order to supply both motors. I will do another calculation because you would want to run the motor up to its rated voltage of 172. I will however keep the 750 total horse power theme. You would do this because you want the wider torque band it will give.

Battery voltage: 266 volts (355 volt pack sagged 25%)
Motor current: 1626 amps ( (750 hp / 2) / 172 volts)
Motor voltage: 172 volts (maximize the torque band)

172 * 1626 / 266 = 1051 battery amps.

Note that the battery amps remains the same. This is because the motor input power remains the same as the voltage climbs. Voltage goes up and current goes down so the battery amps remains the same (excluding rounding error). The losses in the controller have also been excluded from these calculations. They will be on the order of a few percent and will vary slightly as power levels vary.


----------



## jddcircuit (Mar 18, 2010)

Yabert said:


> False... you will be able to obtain all the torque your motors can generate up to the peak torque who will be the peak power point.
> 
> And about the peak power capability of the Volt pack, who really test the peak power of those cells? Discharging few sec* at 15C don't seem unrealistic for this pack. Especially because of his water cooling capacity will protect the cells from overheating.
> Well, at my opinion, you should at least try to find the peak power capacity of one Volt pack (or at lease a cell) before rejecting this potential 48 Kwh, 600-700 hp capable(maybe) battery pack at 5000$
> ...


I like the way you think. It would be nice to see how far a Chevy Volt pack can be pushed. Start with a single pack and test the voltage sag and temp rise under extreme conditions. Scale from there.

Super nice project
Good luck.


----------



## Hollie Maea (Dec 9, 2009)

Since this thread is getting spread out, and different assumptions have been made for different chemistries, I'm going to consolidate all the suggestions into this post. As more are made, I can add them.

OP has stated twice that he's aiming for ~355V and ~3500A, so I will go as close to that as is practical. The debate over whether that's needed can go on and if he changes his goals, everything scales roughly evenly.

Kokam 216UHP
Specs: 3.7V, 30Ah, 900A
Required Configuration: 96S4P (384 cells)
Weight: 840g/cell = 322kg = 709 lbs
Cost: ~60k Cell cost
Battery energy: 42.6 kWh

CALB CA
Specs: 3.2V, 100Ah, 1000A
Required Configuration: 111S3P (333 cells)
Weight: 3.4kg/cell = 1132kg = 2490 lbs
Cost: ~45K (cell cost)
Battery Energy: 106kWh

CALB CAM
Specs: 3.2V, 72Ah, 576A
Required Configuration: 111S4P (444)
Weight: 1.95kg/cell = 866kg = 1904 lbs
Cost: ~ 63K (cell cost)
Battery energy: 102kWh

LG HE2 18650
Specs: 3.7V, 2.5Ah, 35A
Required configuration: 96S67P (6432)
Weight: 0.045kg/cell = 289kg = 637 lbs
Cost: ~25K cell cost. Welding labor required.
Battery energy: 59kWh

Headway
Specs: 3.2V, 8Ah, 200A
Required Configuration: 111S15P (1665)
Weight: .33kg/cell = 549kg = 1208 lbs
Cost: ~33K Cell cost
Battery Energy: 43kWh

Chevy Volt battery
Power capabilities unknown. I'll add it if someone finds out.

A123 AMP20
Specs: 3.3V 20Ah 400A
Required Configuration: 107S6P (642)
Weight: .496kg/cell = 318kg = 700 lbs
Cost: 45K cell cost (assuming $70/cell)
Battery Energy: 42kWh

Enerdel Cells
Specs: 3.65V, 16Ah, 240A
Required Configuration: 96S10P (960)
Weight: 0.43kg/cell = 412kg = 908lb
Cost: $44,236 Cell cost ($46.08/cell)
Battery Energy: 56kWh


Did I miss anything?


----------



## major (Apr 4, 2008)

Hollie Maea said:


> OP has stated twice that he's aiming for ~355V and ~3500A, ...........
> 
> Did I miss anything?


He'll need some different motors or have about twice the battery he can use.


----------



## favguy (May 2, 2008)

Yes, you missed leaf cells


----------



## Zombie 222 (Jul 3, 2014)

Hollie Maea said:


> Since this thread is getting spread out, and different assumptions have been made for different chemistries, I'm going to consolidate all the suggestions into this post. As more are made, I can add them.
> 
> OP has stated twice that he's aiming for ~355V and ~3500A, so I will go as close to that as is practical. The debate over whether that's needed can go on and if he changes his goals, everything scales roughly evenly.
> 
> ...



Awesome summary and very useful as a learning guide. You must do this for a living  I am going to get a loaner drag pack week after next and be able to do a complete set of different test runs on the 1/4 track to put to bed once and for all what I really need in the way of max discharge battery amps. 

What I am now thinking after speaking will folks in the electric drag world directly is that I may be able to get by with a max of 2400 battery amps for the drag side of things, but clearly will need a minimum of 42kWh for street range. It turns out that the Kokam pack had to have 3600 amps to be able to meet the 42 kWh not for the 1/4 performance. Given this new set of targets (assuming it tests out), the game changes a bit and the A123 cells actually start to look better and better if the specs are right and the cycle numbers are real. New minimum targets. 2400amp, 355 volts 42kWh, lowest weight possible.


----------



## Hollie Maea (Dec 9, 2009)

Zombie 222 said:


> New minimum targets. 2400amp, 355 volts 42kWh, lowest weight possible.


Updated Accordingly.


----------



## Zombie 222 (Jul 3, 2014)

I have to tell you that if you expanded your table in an excel spread sheet and broke out of the separate fields like cell price etc.. it would be a VERY useful tool to a newbie like me. It would be awesome to just adjust feilds like aH, voltage, C ratings or raw amp discard rate, xP and xxS to see the outcome. I was surprised when I first started looking around that I didn't see anything like that around. When I get a little more comfortable with the math I may try it! The ultimate cell to module to battery calculator. Get real fancy and plug in HP, torque, car weight to kWh calculations, cycle rates and depth and I would absolutely pay $50-100 for it  BTW, I am the master of inventing things that already exist....


----------



## Hollie Maea (Dec 9, 2009)

favguy said:


> Yes, you missed leaf cells


Anyone know specs, including C rate, weight and cost from a reputable supplier?


----------



## Zombie 222 (Jul 3, 2014)

I have always believed that the only stupid question is the one you are embrassed to ask so here goes. I have noticed a reference to OP as in OP has stated twice. What does OP stand for? Obnoxious Punk? Obvious Putz?


----------



## Hollie Maea (Dec 9, 2009)

OP = Original Poster = you  FWIW, I ran into a good chunk of your team this past Saturday (John and Marko) and they had better things to say about you than "Punk" or "Putz".


----------



## Zombie 222 (Jul 3, 2014)

Hollie Maea said:


> OP = Original Poster = you  FWIW, I ran into a good chunk of your team this past Saturday (John and Marko) and they had better things to say about you than "Punk" or "Putz".



They're some pretty cool guys to work with and I am sure we will get this company off to a good start soon... If I only had batteries  Nothing worse that a bad to the bone car sitting there looking at you just saying, "you took my engine, my gas tank, my radiator and now you don't even give me batteries? What am I, shop art?" 

Not that it makes bad shop art...


----------



## dougingraham (Jul 26, 2011)

Zombie 222 said:


> I have to tell you that if you expanded your table in an excel spread sheet and broke out of the separate fields like cell price etc.. it would be a VERY useful tool to a newbie like me. It would be awesome to just adjust feilds like aH, voltage, C ratings or raw amp discard rate, xP and xxS to see the outcome. I was surprised when I first started looking around that I didn't see anything like that around. When I get a little more comfortable with the math I may try it! The ultimate cell to module to battery calculator. Get real fancy and plug in HP, torque, car weight to kWh calculations, cycle rates and depth and I would absolutely pay $50-100 for it  BTW, I am the master of inventing things that already exist....


Here is a spreadsheet I did a few months ago when thinking about doing a drag racing pack for my next car. Minimum weight and maximum power. Most of the entries are for the high C rate RC hobby packs because they are cheap compared to just about anything else that can do the power. I need to do some more work on it but it should get you started.

LiPo comparison for drag racing

You have to manually search the column you need to find the lightest weight or cheapest price. I've been looking for a way to make the spreadsheet highlight with colors but nothing that makes any sense has shown up. Feel free to make a copy of it and run it on Google docs or export it to excel. The notes were for my 192 volt 1000 amp requirement or tells what that kind of cell was used on. The only thing that makes any sense for drag racing are the LiPo cells that can do 50 plus C rates continuous and 100 to 130 C for 10 seconds. Most of what I have in the spreadsheet are rated this way. Now I don't trust the ratings that much so my plan was to treat the Continuous ratings as the 10 second rating. But this is still 2 to 3 times better than anything else out there. I believe you can mostly trust the numbers in the low C labeled columns.


----------



## major (Apr 4, 2008)

Hollie Maea said:


> A123 AMP20
> Specs: 3.3V 20Ah 400A
> Required Configuration: 107S6P (642)
> Weight: .496kg/cell = 318kg = 700 lbs
> ...


A couple of things. For the A123, $70 was the advertised price, not $50. And you compared EnerDel modules against bare cells for all the others. You can buy the cells and it then looks like this:

A123 AMP20
Specs: 3.3V 20Ah 400A
Required Configuration: 107S6P (642)
Weight: .496kg/cell = 318kg = 700 lbs
Cost: $44,940 cell cost ($70/cell)
Battery Energy: 42kWh

EnerDel Cells
Specs: 3.65V, 16Ah, 240A
Required Configuration: 96S10P (960)
Weight: 0.43kg/cell = 412kg = 908lb
Cost: $44,236 Cell cost ($46.08/cell)
Battery Energy: 56kWh

You may find it is a good value to spend the extra money for the EnerDel modules as you will have to package the cells anyway with any of the brands.

Also, EnerDel rates their cells conservatively with regards to power (and C rate). A good study on Lithium cell power capability was done here: http://elithion.com/wp_short_discharge_time.php You see by that chart that the EnerDel power cell rates above the A123 AMP20. If you were to lower the cell count for EnerDel it would look more attractive like this: 

EnerDel Cells
Specs: 3.65V, 18.75Ah, 300A
Required Configuration: 96S8P (768)
Weight: 0.43kg/cell = 330kg = 726lb
Cost: $35,389 Cell cost ($46.08/cell)
Battery Energy: 44.8kWh


----------



## samwichse (Jan 28, 2012)

Here's an editable spreadsheet you can put your cells in (fill in the green area, the lower yellowish numbers will be calculated). I went ahead and threw in the summary info haphazardly.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/17qPwkAmbZqqaFtmOTWOfSjWyGr13O3Q7UgbncZB3Y-Q/edit?usp=sharing


----------



## Hollie Maea (Dec 9, 2009)

Changed to Enerdel Cells to have a better head to head comparison. But of course if you get the modules that saves you significant effort over all of the other options.

Changed A123 to $70, since that's the only clearly advertised price. It's possible to do a bit better with some legwork. But that's probably true for some of the others too.

Sticking with the official C rate for the enerdels (sorry Major) since "what can they really do" is a deep rabbit hole. In that spirit, I should change CALB CA back to 10C no matter how hard Jack insists...not that it matters; even at 12C the CALBs are by far the worst option.


----------



## Zombie 222 (Jul 3, 2014)

Anyone familiar with these cell and company?

*8.5 AH Xinchi* (also known as ‘Pure’) Cells that have a *24C* rating 

*30 AH Xinchi* (also known as ‘Pure’) Cells that have only a *10C*


----------



## dougingraham (Jul 26, 2011)

From my spreadsheet I set the amps at 2104 and the volts at 310 and the spreadsheet tells what you need for each kind of cell/pack to get a battery that will do that. The 2104 is because that is what you need for a sagged 355 volt pack to get 750 HP at the motor. The 310 is the nominal voltage of the pack so a fully charged pack will be approximatly 355 volts.

The winner for both cost and weight is... Turnigy nano-tech A-SPEC 12S 3.3 AH pack costing $145.33 each. You gang these into a 7S5P arrangement giving a pack which weighs 40.915 kg (90 lbs). The nominal voltage is 310.8 volts and the fully charged voltage is 352.8. The pack is going to be 16.5 AH and at a nominal voltage of 310.8 has 5.128 kwh at a total cost of $5086.55.

Now I don't completely trust that these cells will do 65C continuous and 130C for 10 seconds but I would expect that they could do 65C for 10 seconds so doubling the pack to use the 65C numbers gives a cost of $10173.10, a weight of 81.83 kg (180.26 lbs) and a capacity of 10.256 kwh.

This would be your basic drag pack. Even if you multiply this by 4 to get your capacity up for the range needed you are still talking about less money and weight than other solutions presented.

$40692
327.3 kg (720 lbs)
41.024 kwh

This pack would be loafing at drag racing currents.

Would I do this? No. I would have a pack for the drag strip and a pack for the street and figure out a way to swap them out. Different applications warrant a different pack.


----------



## Karter2 (Nov 17, 2011)

> Anyone familiar with these cell and company?
> 
> *8.5 AH Xinchi* (also known as ‘Pure’) Cells that have a *24C* rating


 Be very wary of unverified and untested/proven cells..even if from a reputable manufacturer.
You may know of or seen posts on here from "Ron" ..AKA,. .EVMetric !
He put a lot of time , effort and money into a similar drag project (WarpFactor 111 ) but then talked himself into using a well spec'd cell from a major manufacturer that had all the right numbers on its data sheet (65C discharge etc).
When it came to the moment of truth,.. those cells sagged voltage like a hoars draws ! , leaving him flat on the track with half the power he expected.
So , go with the proven cells as recommended above if you want few surprises.
One question..
If you have JW on your team, .. why do you need advice from here ??


----------



## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

dougingraham said:


> ...The winner for both cost and weight is... Turnigy nano-tech A-SPEC...


Turnigy A-Specs are what I plan to run in Scrape, or maybe the ones John Metric sells. It's the key to making my entire plan for the bike work, because my pack will be under around 75lbs, with around 600hp in the box; maybe 40-60 miles of range. The downside, again, is cycle life. Turnigy's dish it out, but I am planning on significantly less than a 500 cycle lifespan.

I plan to use the two cell (1S/2P) modules though, and build up (200 modules). I don't like how those like packs are wired (I think 8awg leads) for drawing that much current.


----------



## Karter2 (Nov 17, 2011)

Zombie 222,...
Much as i use and like RC lipo, i dont think you could consider it as a pack for commercial applications ( customer cars)
Its cheap, lightweight and powerful, ideal for racing, DIY projects, bikes and Ebicycles, but can be easily damaged and doesnt respond in a friendly manner if abused.
I agree with doug,.. one Nanotec pack for the strip, and probably an Enerdel or A123 pack for the road.
I assume John W has explained how tricky it is to get any vehicle through the 1/4 in 10 secs ? every few kg you save is critical.
..a fully equipped street legal muscle car is a big unit to crack that time .


----------



## Karter2 (Nov 17, 2011)

Hollie Maea said:


> Anyone know specs, including C rate, weight and cost from a reputable supplier?


http://www.electricvehiclewiki.com/?title=Battery_specs


> Nissan Leaf Battery Specs
> 
> Type Laminated lithium-ion battery
> Voltage 403.2V [1]
> ...


So from this Key data ....
Power density 2.5 kW/kg
Weight 1.7624 lbs (799 g)
Rated capacity (0.3C) 33.1 Ah
Average voltage 3.8 V

Leads me to think each cell has power capacity of 2.0kWs..
Which suggests 526 amps from a 33Ahr cell ..or 16C !!

Leaf packs seem to be becoming available from various breakers etc , with "module" (4 cells) selling for around $120.
This was one supplier who has advertised availability..
Hybrid Auto Center LLC
Nikolay Tranakiev
5360 Cameron St.
Ste. 5
Las Vegas, NV 89118
United States
Phone: 702-374-8692
Fax: 702-944-7871


----------



## Zombie 222 (Jul 3, 2014)

Karter2 said:


> Zombie 222,...
> Much as i use and like RC lipo, i dont think you could consider it as a pack for commercial applications ( customer cars)
> Its cheap, lightweight and powerful, ideal for racing, DIY projects, bikes and Ebicycles, but can be easily damaged and doesnt respond in a friendly manner if abused.
> I agree with doug,.. one Nanotec pack for the strip, and probably an Enerdel or A123 pack for the road.
> ...



I would love to have a pack for the track and one for the street if this was my personal car, but the goal is to use this as THE showcase for the cars we would build for customers. The goal is to have a beautiful collectable muscle car that lives up to the name "Zombie" by being a vintage car that is completely street-able and a serious performer on the track like the White Zombie. The difference between the White Zombie and a Zombie 222 is based on the ownership and focus. 

John Wayland, owner and builder of the White Zombie, can build a battery pack from scratch in his sleep and has no problems closely monitoring his systems and fine tuning them. He could switch between a track-pack and a street pack easily. However, I am certain that the type of collector that would invest $$$ in a special car like a Zombie 222 this is not going to want nor be comfortable "switching" packs. From a focus standpoint, John races the White Zombie and made the name famous on the track. The White Zombie is capable on the street, but doesn't have all of the suspension, interior, and comfort features that the Zombie 222 must have to appeal to the target buyer. The focus is a little weighted on the track side of things where as the Zombie 222 must be more balanced between the two worlds. This clearly means one hell of pack to do both power and energy and that equals $$. John has made sure that I have no illusions in this regard.


----------



## PThompson509 (Jul 9, 2009)

Zombie 222 said:


> I would love to have a pack for the track and one for the street if this was my personal car, but the goal is to use this as THE showcase for the cars we would build for customers. The goal is to have a beautiful collectable muscle car that lives up to the name "Zombie" by being a vintage car that is completely street-able and a serious performer on the track like the White Zombie. The difference between the White Zombie and a Zombie 222 is based on the ownership and focus.
> 
> John Wayland, owner and builder of the White Zombie, can build a battery pack from scratch in his sleep and has no problems closely monitoring his systems and fine tuning them. He could switch between a track-pack and a street pack easily. However, I am certain that the type of collector that would invest $$$ in a special car like a Zombie 222 this is not going to want nor be comfortable "switching" packs. From a focus standpoint, John races the White Zombie and made the name famous on the track. The White Zombie is capable on the street, but doesn't have all of the suspension, interior, and comfort features that the Zombie 222 must have to appeal to the target buyer. The focus is a little weighted on the track side of things where as the Zombie 222 must be more balanced between the two worlds. This clearly means one hell of pack to do both power and energy and that equals $$. John has made sure that I have no illusions in this regard.


John Wayland is not going to be your customer, though. Most likely you will have a customer that will take the car to the track now and then to show off, and have his foot into the go-pedal every chance he gets. I'd aim for the street pack. Of course, I'm not doing the project, so my advice is worth every penny you paid.


----------



## Zombie 222 (Jul 3, 2014)

I am trying to get pricing on these Kokam cells. They are CRAZY. 40Ah and 40C continuous. At 42kWh, I would have a surplus of discharge amps at continuous mode much less 10 second. Almost sound too good to be true.

Anyone used them, seen or know about them?

I would set them up in 3P, 96S configuration. 3800 amps at 355volts and 42.6 kWh. 



*SLPB120216216PR2*
*Litium-Polymer*
- EXTREME ENERGY CELL


· TECHNICAL DATA
CELL
SLPB120216216PR2 
CAPACITY
40 Ah
VOLTAGE
3.7 V
CONTINUOUS CURRENT. 
800 A
PEAK CURRENT
1,6 A
RESISTANCE
Continuous Discharge 
0,6 mOhm
40 "C"
MANUF.
Kokam 
ENERGY
126 Wh/kg
LENGTH
227 mm
WIDTH
226 mm
THICKNESS
11.7 mm
WEIGHT
1,17 kg
LIFE CYCLE
80%

18 boxes of 16 cells each. = 288 cells


----------



## dougingraham (Jul 26, 2011)

Zombie 222 said:


> I am trying to get pricing on these Kokam cells. They are CRAZY. 40Ah and 40C continuous. At 42kWh, I would have a surplus of discharge amps at continuous mode much less 10 second. Almost sound too good to be true.
> 
> Anyone used them, seen or know about them?
> 
> I would set them up in 3P, 96S configuration. 3800 amps at 355volts and 42.6 kWh.


One thing to keep in mind is that with as large a pack as you need to get your 125 mile range you don't need an "Energy Cell". You just need a cell that can do a burst of a little over 15C with 20C being preferred. The "energy cells" are probably going to demand a premium price. They will also weigh more and take more space for their capacity which works against you in this case.

I don't believe I have mentioned it before but batteries take a lot of room and you don't want to use up all your space just holding the batteries. Pouch cells like the Kokams or the A123's look good on paper until you start putting them in enclosures to protect them.


----------



## Zombie 222 (Jul 3, 2014)

dougingraham said:


> One thing to keep in mind is that with as large a pack as you need to get your 125 mile range you don't need an "Energy Cell". You just need a cell that can do a burst of a little over 15C with 20C being preferred. The "energy cells" are probably going to demand a premium price. They will also weigh more and take more space for their capacity which works against you in this case.
> 
> I don't believe I have mentioned it before but batteries take a lot of room and you don't want to use up all your space just holding the batteries. Pouch cells like the Kokams or the A123's look good on paper until you start putting them in enclosures to protect them.


I haven't found a good cell from a reputable manufacturer that can give me 42 kWh, minimum of 2400 amp at full discard, nominal volt of 355, weighs less than the Kokams and takes up less overall space. I want to find it believe me because the Kokams are super expensive.


----------



## dougingraham (Jul 26, 2011)

Zombie 222 said:


> I haven't found a good cell from a reputable manufacturer that can give me 42 kWh, minimum of 2400 amp at full discard, nominal volt of 355, weighs less than the Kokams and takes up less overall space. I want to find it believe me because the Kokams are super expensive.


I was suggesting pricing your pack using other Kokam cells. The energy cells are particularly expensive and you don't need a drag specific pack because of your 125 mile range requirement. You need a pack that can do 125 miles at a minimum weight. You get the drag currents for free if the pack can do 15 C or more pulse and it will weigh less than the energy pack. Something like the Kokam SLPB110255255H. A 96S still gives you the voltage (355.2 nominal) and a 2P gives you 44.8 kwh. Your pulse current will be 1800 but when reduced to the max voltage the motors can handle would be 3715 amps at 172 volts or 639 kw (856 HP) into the motors. At the 2000 amps and 139.9 volts per motor I mentioned in a previous post these batteries need to put out 1576 amps and they exceed that. Of the Kokams the SLPB110255255H would be my choice for your application. Get a quote for those as well. The bare cells for the energy ones you selected would weigh 337 kg (741 lbs) while the ones I selected will weigh 288 kg (633 lbs) and have an additional 2.1 kwh of capacity. Saving 108 lbs while getting an additional 2.1 kwh with 2/3 as many cell interconnects probably for less money seems like a big win to me.

While you are getting quotes also get one for 192 of SLPB125255255H as a range safety one. This pack would have a capacity of 53.3 kwh and weigh 332 kg (731 lbs).

The prices they are quoting you are probably go away prices. You would need a quote for 1000 pcs to get the first price break and you probably have to talk 10000 piece quantities to get their attention. At the 100k piece price they want to keep you happy because at that level you would be an OEM.


----------



## major (Apr 4, 2008)

dougingraham said:


> One thing to keep in mind is that with as large a pack as you need to get your 125 mile range you don't need an "Energy Cell". You just need a cell that can do a burst of a little over 15C with 20C being preferred. The "energy cells" are probably going to demand a premium price. They will also weigh more and take more space for their capacity which works against you in this case.


Hi doug,

You have it backasswards  Energy cells are the ones designed for BEVs. Power cells are for HEVs and PHEVs. The power cells typically command higher price and have lower energy density than the energy cells. This can be seen for the EnerDel cells here: http://evolveelectrics.com/single-cell/ Although both cells appear to have the same package, the power cell has higher C-rates and lower Ah.


----------



## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

Hi Major

You are correct - Doug used the wrong terminology

But his point is good - super high power cells are not required because of the size of the pack to achieve the range


----------



## Karter2 (Nov 17, 2011)

> I am trying to get pricing on these Kokam cells...
> ...Anyone used them, seen or know about them?


 Wasnt JW using Kokam cells in the WZ ?
I thought he had the inside contacts with Kokam ?


----------



## dougingraham (Jul 26, 2011)

My mistake. Read what I meant, not what I said. What! You cant read minds? Kokam calls those UHP (Ultra High Power) cells and they are un-necessary for this application. The 14C and 15C cells are a better choice due to the weight, space and number of cell interconnects required.

Thanks for correcting me Major! Should I go back and fix my posting?


----------



## Zombie 222 (Jul 3, 2014)

Zombie 222 said:


> I am trying to get pricing on these Kokam cells. They are CRAZY. 40Ah and 40C continuous. At 42kWh, I would have a surplus of discharge amps at continuous mode much less 10 second. Almost sound too good to be true.
> 
> Anyone used them, seen or know about them?
> 
> ...



No longer manufactured or available...


----------



## Zombie 222 (Jul 3, 2014)

Karter2 said:


> Wasnt JW using Kokam cells in the WZ ?
> I thought he had the inside contacts with Kokam ?


We are using John's contacts and that's we get our pricing and availability. Kokam will actually make a run of cells like John's just for us, but they are just very very pricey. You have mentioned John several times, are you a friend of his I haven't met yet?


----------



## dougingraham (Jul 26, 2011)

Zombie 222 said:


> No longer manufactured or available...


In looking at the table on the Kokam website this morning I see that they have removed that 40AH cell from the UHP section of the table. But the ones I think are a better fit are still there. Any cell in the 255 series with a 15C pulse rating should work for your application. If you wanted to make a pack just for drag racing portion of your goal and have a significantly lighter pack as an option use the SLPB98188216P cell. I would do a 95S 2P pack which gives 1800 available battery amps at the maximum allowed controller voltage. 2000 motor amps at 139.9 volts would be 932 battery amps. This would be just above the allowed battery amps for a pair of Zilla's and motors and the difference would not be noticed by anyone but a professional driver. The huge advantage would be the weight savings. This pack would weigh 159.6 kg for the cells which is 351 lbs. It would be a 21kwh pack which would still have a drop dead range of approximately 70 miles.

I just read through the Zilla 2k HV specs on Manzinata's website and there is a note about maximum battery voltage. They want you to keep the max battery voltage below 375. This would reduce the max cell count to 89S (329.3 nominal) making the max pulse output power from a 2P pack around 445kw (595 HP) when you figure in a 25% voltage sag. Going back to a 89S3P arrangement would bring this back up to a max battery output power of 711 kw (953 HP) but the weight of the pack increases to 224 kg which is 493 lbs. Should have a drop dead range of 98 miles under good conditions.


----------



## Karter2 (Nov 17, 2011)

I suspect they have all the know how and experience "in house" to put a suitable pack together just for the strip, and I doubt Kokam cells would be a first choice for that when you could have a pack weighing under 100 kg using RC LiPo.
The issue is still to find a quality, reliable, pack (40+kWhr, 120Ahr) that can supply 2000 amps (17C) in burst,....and weigh less than 700lbs !!......and at a practical cost.!
That is 2100W/kg.
The 18650 "Tesla" type solution certainly has the numbers.....but Ohhh the complexity !


----------



## Zombie 222 (Jul 3, 2014)

Fellow EV-ers. In order to try and accelerate this new business (buy some darn batteries) and start getting electric super muscle cars on the roads, we have starting a crowd funding campaign on* indiegogo.com*. Please take a look at it and if you don't see a perk you like, please forward this along to any and everyone you think would find this EV business cool enough to throw a couple of bucks at it, pick up a bad ass shirt, mini replica remote control car or even join a virtual design team to be an insider and be a real part of the team as an insider. 

At least I think you may enjoy the main video. If you like hillbilly/preacher type pitches  

https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/...s-of-all-electric-super-muscle-cars/x/6618725


----------



## arklan (Dec 10, 2012)

going to be the worlds fastest monster energy drink can 

u sure have an energetic personality 

try this for sound
http://www.soundracer.se/


----------



## Hollie Maea (Dec 9, 2009)

Karter2 said:


> The 18650 "Tesla" type solution certainly has the numbers.....but Ohhh the complexity !


It isn't bad if you have the tools and a good design. I made a 6.5kWh 18650 module today at work...it took about five hours. And I still can't get over how much better the density is.


----------



## Karter2 (Nov 17, 2011)

A "simple" pack of a few hundred cells is one thing.
But a pack of several thousand cells that will be hit with 15C at times is quite a challenge !.. Ref Tesla etc.
I suspect you would have to include some form of cooling ,BMS, and cell protection, since this is a "customer" spec daily driver!
Is the technology for individual cell isolating fuses , similar to Teslas, readily available for large scale pack builds ?
ditto a proven , high performance BMS ?
Then there is the labour / time just to assemble them.


----------



## dougingraham (Jul 26, 2011)

Hollie Maea said:


> It isn't bad if you have the tools and a good design. I made a 6.5kWh 18650 module today at work...it took about five hours. And I still can't get over how much better the density is.


Hijacking the thread again. Do you have any pictures? Guess I will see if you posted something somewhere else about it.


----------



## Hollie Maea (Dec 9, 2009)

dougingraham said:


> Hijacking the thread again. Do you have any pictures? Guess I will see if you posted something somewhere else about it.


Again, it was at work, so I'm not at liberty to post pictures. But anyway, if this is "hijacking the thread" I'll let it go.


----------



## Zombie 222 (Jul 3, 2014)

It's not high jacking if it's educational on battery pack design and fabrication.


----------



## epyon (Mar 20, 2008)

From one muscle car owner to a new builder ....welcome . Will you be doing any road racing or time attack in it to show off your new company ? I'm setting my ex-street racer for time attack and daily driving . I read the thread an I think your on track about not throwing money at a problem . And the other car did go fast with older style batteries .


----------



## Yabert (Feb 7, 2010)

Yabert said:


> And about the peak power capability of the Volt pack, who really test the peak power of those cells?


Me... *933 battery HP* for a 48 Kwh battery composed of 3 Volt battery.
You can't say that I'm not good with you 

http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showthread.php/power-capability-chevy-volt-battery-109698.html


----------



## dougingraham (Jul 26, 2011)

From a comparison document I started a couple of years ago.


Chevy Volt battery pack:

Consists of LG Chem LiCoO2 pouch cells.

# cells: 288 (96S3P)
Kilowatthours: 16 (10 usable)
Nominal voltage:	355.2 (96 * 3.7 volts)
Amp Hours: 45 (3 * 15 AH cells)
Weight of cells:	285.1 lbs (129.6 kg)
Weight of pack:	434.9 lbs (197.7 kg)
Cell wh/kg: 123.457
Pack wh/kg (usable):	50.582
Pack wh/kg (total):	80.931

The usable numbers are based on what Chevy (GM) allows to be used in order to protect the cells and give them the 8 year claimed life.

I can't figure out what the part number for the cell used is. LG Chem appears to be another company that doesn't really want to sell to anyone but OEM's. I would like to look at a product listing.


----------



## Zombie 222 (Jul 3, 2014)

epyon said:


> From one muscle car owner to a new builder ....welcome . Will you be doing any road racing or time attack in it to show off your new company ? I'm setting my ex-street racer for time attack and daily driving . I read the thread an I think your on track about not throwing money at a problem . And the other car did go fast with older style batteries .



We are planning to do 1-2 days of track runs the first week in August. A good friend of John Wayland's is bringing his EV to Austin to let me use his battery pack(s) to tune the Zombie 222 and determine once and for all the optimum pack configuration and specs I really need to meet all of the performance specs. I fully expect to get a bunch of new video, track times etc.. so stay tuned. This will also give us new media for the indiegogo campaign we are running at igg.me/at/zombie222


----------



## Zombie 222 (Jul 3, 2014)

Zombie 222 said:


> Fellow EV-ers. In order to try and accelerate this new business (buy some darn batteries) and start getting electric super muscle cars on the roads, we have starting a crowd funding campaign on* indiegogo.com*. Please take a look at it and if you don't see a perk you like, please forward this along to any and everyone you think would find this EV business cool enough to throw a couple of bucks at it, pick up a bad ass shirt, mini replica remote control car or even join a virtual design team to be an insider and be a real part of the team as an insider.
> 
> At least I think you may enjoy the main video. If you like hillbilly/preacher type pitches
> 
> https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/...s-of-all-electric-super-muscle-cars/x/6618725


I used the wrong URL. They give you a short url.

igg.me/at/zombie222

Here are a couple of funny pics I took of the "baby Zombie 222" perk I am offering. Several people signed up so I started painting them up.


----------



## John Metric (Feb 26, 2009)

dougingraham said:


> Chevy Volt battery pack:
> Consists of LG Chem LiCoO2 pouch cells.
> # cells: 288 (96S3P)
> Kilowatthours: 16 (10 usable)
> ...


That LG Cobalt Oxide electrolyte chemistry and pouch arrangement used to be called a RC LiPo cell. I dare you to look inside an OEM cell nowadays and tell the difference.


----------



## skooler (Mar 26, 2011)

Found these from a thread in the classifieds...

http://www.szwestart.com/ProductView.asp?ID=166


----------



## Zombie 222 (Jul 3, 2014)

skooler said:


> Found these from a thread in the classifieds...
> 
> http://www.szwestart.com/ProductView.asp?ID=166



Using these cells, see if I am doing my math right as I learn the ways of EV world. Let's say I need 2400amps for my 10 second discharge, voltage of 355 and at least 42kWh. 
NMC-20AH-3.6V-15C

 Suitable for competitive racing electric car, with High-rate Discharge,Energy density and much higher power output.​ Comes with solid bar type battery strap and M8 terminal nut.​ Capacity​: 20Ah 
Nominal Voltage: 3.6v 
Charge Voltage: 4.2v 
Discharge Voltage: 2.5v
Continous Discharge: 10C 
30 Second Discharge: 15C 
Fast Charge: 3C (150 Amp) 
Normal Charge: 1/3C (16 amp) 
Weight: 0.85kg / 1.87 lbs
Length: 148 mm 
Width: 91 mm
Thickness: 26.5 mm
 Internal Resistance: < 1.35 milliohms 


---------------------
20ah x 15C = 300a max discharge
2400/300 = 8 in parallel
355x3.6 = 98.6 round up to 100 for easier match.

8P, 100S pack with 56.7kWh
total cell weight is 1496lb

This gives me the total discharge amps I need and more kWh than I require, but the weight is way too high. 

Am I right?


----------



## dougingraham (Jul 26, 2011)

skooler said:


> Found these from a thread in the classifieds...
> 
> http://www.szwestart.com/ProductView.asp?ID=166


I think EVTV had those in the store for a while. Jack did some testing and liked them but they were kind of pricey. I don't see them there now. Michel Bertrand used them in his Porsche 911 conversion at last years EVCCon.


----------



## browncamaroz28 (May 14, 2014)

Zombie 222 said:


> Using these cells, see if I am doing my math right as I learn the ways of EV world. Let's say I need 2400amps for my 10 second discharge, voltage of 355 and at least 42kWh.
> NMC-20AH-3.6V-15C
> 
> 
> ...


Have you though about using this cell instead? http://www.szwestart.com/ProductView.asp?ID=150

ENERGY: 60Ah 
Nominal Voltage: 3.6v 
Charge Voltage: 4.1v 
Discharge Voltage: 2.5v
Continous Discharge: 15C 
30 Second Discharge: 20C 
Fast Charge: 3C (150 Amp) 
Normal Charge: 1/3C (16 amp) 
Weight: 1.75 kg / 3.85 lbs
Length: 225 mm / 8.85 inches 
Width: 135 mm / 5.31 inches 
Thickness: 20 mm / 0.79 inches
Internal Resistance: < 1.35 milliohms 

Two packs of 100 cells each would give you 360 volts, 2400amps for 30 seconds and 43.2 Kw/h. At a weight of 770 lbs (not including boxs, bms wiring, etc). BTW I have no idea if the manufacturers claims are correct, I'm just going by what they advertise.

If my math is completely wrong feel free to call me out as I did it all pre-coffee.


----------



## skooler (Mar 26, 2011)

browncamaroz28 said:


> Have you though about using this cell instead? http://www.szwestart.com/ProductView.asp?ID=150
> 
> ENERGY: 60Ah
> Nominal Voltage: 3.6v
> ...


Welcome to the forum.

As a bit of friendly advice please read through the thread before posting, these cells have already been discussed over the previous 3 posts.

Cheers,

Mike


----------



## browncamaroz28 (May 14, 2014)

skooler said:


> Welcome to the forum.
> 
> As a bit of friendly advice please read through the thread before posting, these cells have already been discussed over the previous 3 posts.
> 
> ...


That specific cell? I'm only seeing the 20ah not the 60ah. Maybe I'm just missing it. 

Thanks for the welcome though 
-Eric


----------



## Zombie 222 (Jul 3, 2014)

browncamaroz28 said:


> That specific cell? I'm only seeing the 20ah not the 60ah. Maybe I'm just missing it.
> 
> Thanks for the welcome though
> -Eric



Eric,

I had not looked at this 60ah before. I just ran the numbers on a reduced 10 second discharge target of 2400 amp and this module sounds a bit interesting. If I am doing the math correctly (big if) 

60Ah at 20C (max discharge) is 1200amp and I might be able to get away with 2400amp

2400/1200 = 2P 
355v / 3.6 = 99S

2P, 99S = 42.7kWh which is the minimum I need

weight = 762lb

I need to do some looking at total cubic ft. size displacement...

Any information on pricing? I didn't see any. 

Mitch


----------



## browncamaroz28 (May 14, 2014)

Zombie 222 said:


> Eric,
> 
> I had not looked at this 60ah before. I just ran the numbers on a reduced 10 second discharge target of 2400 amp and this module sounds a bit interesting. If I am doing the math correctly (big if)
> 
> ...


I didn't see any pricing info. but the cubic foot for each pack would be about 2.14 (4.28 for both packs) so that's pretty dense. I believe that car came with a 17 gallon tank, but thats just off of memory, which woould be about 2.27 cubic foot.


----------



## Zombie 222 (Jul 3, 2014)

browncamaroz28 said:


> I didn't see any pricing info. but the cubic foot for each pack would be about 2.14 (4.28 for both packs) so that's pretty dense. I believe that car came with a 17 gallon tank, but thats just off of memory, which woould be about 2.27 cubic foot.


Pricing has been everything usually falls apart when I think I see an answer in front of me  I sent an email to manufacturer.


----------



## browncamaroz28 (May 14, 2014)

Zombie 222 said:


> Pricing has been everything usually falls apart when I think I see an answer in front of me  I sent an email to manufacturer.


Yeah I know how that goes. If you hear back from them would you mind posting the prices? A pack half the size of the one you're planning might make its way into my conversion if the price is reasonable.


----------



## Zombie 222 (Jul 3, 2014)

browncamaroz28 said:


> Yeah I know how that goes. If you hear back from them would you mind posting the prices? A pack half the size of the one you're planning might make its way into my conversion if the price is reasonable.


Absolutely. Everyone here has been very helpful and nice so sharing anything I learn is a must. Which ever direction I go, I'll make sure to give folks a chance to do a group buy. 

Mitch


----------



## skooler (Mar 26, 2011)

browncamaroz28 said:


> That specific cell? I'm only seeing the 20ah not the 60ah. Maybe I'm just missing it.
> 
> Thanks for the welcome though
> -Eric


Apologies, missed that. Ignore me and carry on!


----------



## browncamaroz28 (May 14, 2014)

skooler said:


> Apologies, missed that. Ignore me and carry on!


No worries, thanks for keeping me on my toes


----------



## danh818 (Dec 14, 2011)

You may want to look into the possibility of designing your battery system such that you would be able half you voltage and double your capacity. If the wiring is set up properly you would be able to exchange a series connection or two for parallel. This may end up being a relatively simple solution to your power vs. range dilemma. I had theorized doing on my 944 conversion, but chose not to right away. Now that my car has 50 track miles on it, I will be implementing this. To a degree, you could similarly limit power via controller settings, but the math works out differently vs. physically halving the voltage and doubling the capacity.


----------



## Zombie 222 (Jul 3, 2014)

Zombie 222 said:


> Absolutely. Everyone here has been very helpful and nice so sharing anything I learn is a must. Which ever direction I go, I'll make sure to give folks a chance to do a group buy.
> 
> Mitch


I got pricing and delivery information back. Here you go. 

Model No.: NMC-60AH-3.6V-10C
Description: NMC EV cell, nominal voltage:3.6V, continuous discharge rate:10C, burst discharge rate:15C for 10 seconds. 304 stainless steel case+red copper cover with exclusive explosion proof design.
Unit price:*US$1.49/Ah*.
Unit price: US$89.4/60Ah.
Packing: Net weight: 1.65kg/60Ah cell.
Gross weight:9.5kg/Carton.
1pc/box, 5pcs/Carton.
Freight: US$129/by sea, within 21 days from Shenzhen yantian port to Austin, TX port.
*Total amount: US$18009(200pcs 60Ah cell)*

Remark:
1. payment terms: CIF Shenzhen, T/T,50% deposit in advance, the balance to be paid before shipment.
2. delivery terms: 25~35 days after receiving down payment(excluding delivery time).
3. price validity: 30 days and subject to our final confirmation.
4. MOQ.: 200 pieces.

All cells are build in factory according to customer needs.We offer 2 year warranty for all the parts


----------



## Hollie Maea (Dec 9, 2009)

Pretty sweet if they are what they say they are. It's always a bit nerve wracking to be the first to try a new cell from China, but that's potentially a great deal.


----------



## Karter2 (Nov 17, 2011)

If you are serious, or even think these cells might be suitable, you would be wise to buy a few (2-4) and have them inspected and fully tested by a reliable source, to ensure they meet specs and build quality.
If the vendor and product are genuine, they will supply sample cells.
Too many issues with dud product from seemingly reputable Chinese cell suppliers to take any serious financial risk.
Re the saga of Warp Factor 3 !


----------



## Zombie 222 (Jul 3, 2014)

Karter2 said:


> If you are serious, or even think these cells might be suitable, you would be wise to buy a few (2-4) and have them inspected and fully tested by a reliable source, to ensure they meet specs and build quality.
> If the vendor and product are genuine, they will supply sample cells.
> Too many issues with dud product from seemingly reputable Chinese cell suppliers to take any serious financial risk.
> Re the saga of Warp Factor 3 !


My Grandpappy used to say, "if it looks too good to be true, then you better get it before someone else does" , but he passed on broke so I totally agree with you. 

I have some of my sources that managed our Chinese manufacturing site in my last company looking into them and of course we would have John W. test the crap out of the cell in Portland before I even bothered going a step further. We are also looking at some cells from another Chinese manufacturer that hold promise on paper and I'll post any results we get if they are worth talking about.


----------



## dougingraham (Jul 26, 2011)

About the NMC-60AH-3.6V-10C cells, EVTV tested the 50AH version of these cells and showed the results in the Friday July 25 2013 show. Michel Bertrand used them in his Porsche 911 conversion and I got to drive the car at EVCCon 2013. He set a 1/8th mile record in his class at Sikeston the Sunday after the event. Here is a link to the EVTV blog entry.

New Mean Cells

And here is a link to the program on Youtube.

EVTV Friday Show - July 26, 2013

The battery test segment starts at 14:05. Be prepared for the equivalent of watching paint dry. I would start watching at around 28 minutes as this is where he actually picks up the NMC cell and starts talking about how he ended up with 10 of these cells by accident.

They carried these in the EVTV store for a while but no longer do. I don't know what that means and you might want to ask Jack why because he liked them enough to stock them.

And you could talk to Mikey Bertrand since he has been driving with them for a year now and is the only person I know who is using this type of cell from this manufacturer.

From what I can tell from the specifications you can probably make these work and the cost while still high is not hideous like some of the other options that have been discussed.

200 cells * 3.6 volts * 60 AH = 42.2 kwh

With the Zilla EHV 2k restriction of 355 volts this means a max cell count of 355/4.1 = 86 cells in series. A 2P arrangement would give 120 AH and a peak current of 1800 amps which is not quite enough. So a 66S3P arrangement will be needed and should be more than adequate. This will be a peak voltage of 280.6 volts, a nominal voltage of 237.6 with 180AH giving 42.8 kwh. The pack should be able to source 1800 amps continuous and 2700 amps for 10 seconds. You will have two cells left over from the 200. 2700 amps times 237.6 volts is 641.52 kw or 860 HP that can be delivered to the controllers/motors. The batteries should not be the restriction in this case.


----------



## ishiwgao (May 5, 2011)

Zombie 222 said:


> I got pricing and delivery information back. Here you go.
> 
> Model No.: NMC-60AH-3.6V-10C
> Description: NMC EV cell, nominal voltage:3.6V, *continuous discharge rate:10C, burst discharge rate:15C for 10 seconds*. 304 stainless steel case+red copper cover with exclusive explosion proof design.





> ENERGY: 60Ah
> Nominal Voltage: 3.6v
> Charge Voltage: 4.1v
> Discharge Voltage: 2.5v
> ...


Funny how the specs lists a different discharge C than what the email said.


----------



## browncamaroz28 (May 14, 2014)

ishiwgao said:


> Funny how the specs lists a different discharge C than what the email said.


Yeah their cell weight also varies from the email to the website, 3.63lbs on the email, 3.85lbs on the website. Probably even more reason to get a few cells and test them before buying the whole lot.


----------



## Zombie 222 (Jul 3, 2014)

We used a loaner battery pack to get some testing done before ordering the production pack and while it is not as powerful as what we are specifying, it really lets us see what the car is capable of doing. Plus we got to race some cool cars. 

We raced two other Mustangs to clearly illustrate what this car is currently capable of of and why our target performance number are realistic. 

First up was a 1967 Mustang Fastback GT390 running a 428CJ built by Dyno Don years ago. That car's best time was 15.2 seconds 1/4 mile. Not even a race.

Second was a 2011 GT500 Shelby that ran 13.1 best time. Beaten by a full second. 

Our Zombie 222 best time was 12.1 with a 0-60 in 3.5 seconds. Not bad for a 1/3 pack that is pretty worn out with some flaky cells. 

Here is the video of the first 12.1 run

http://vimeo.com/103023639

The is the race with the GT500 from a GO PRO on the GT500. 

http://youtu.be/uk_jMR3Arq0?list=PL-SgjSLANNuwpegOUaV7L0sOJ1Ws-2Zfl


This is a great video from the Zombie 222 when it ran 12.1 against a really built TransAM. The burnout is great and watch how fast the guy gets left behind. 

http://youtu.be/7qykCS3Grho?list=PL-SgjSLANNuwpegOUaV7L0sOJ1Ws-2Zfl

I drove the car to Car and Coffee Show here in Austin yesterday and the response was OVERWHELMINGLY positive. The car was the most viewed car there and I didn't get one hater.


----------



## browncamaroz28 (May 14, 2014)

Congrats on the testing, the car looked great 

So i have to ask, could we get some of the specs on the pack used?


----------



## Zombie 222 (Jul 3, 2014)

I believe that it is a 355V/14.2kWh Li-ion pack weighing in at 268 pounds


----------



## browncamaroz28 (May 14, 2014)

Zombie 222 said:


> I believe that it is a 355V/14.2kWh Li-ion pack weighing in at 268 pounds


So I take it that you were running it at like 25c or higher then. Cool setup, can't wait to see the car with the full pack.


----------



## Ivansgarage (Sep 3, 2011)

Good videos

Love it, electrons kicken gas ass...


---------


----------



## glyndwr1998 (Apr 27, 2013)

That is going to be one smokin cool motor when finished


----------



## Karter2 (Nov 17, 2011)

Zombie 222 said:


> We used a loaner battery pack to get some testing done before ordering the production pack and while it is not as powerful as what we are specifying, it really lets us see what the car is capable of doing..


 so have you settled on which cells to use in your full pack ?
Sounds like you had a "good day" at the strip !


----------



## Zombie 222 (Jul 3, 2014)

glyndwr1998 said:


> That is going to be one smokin cool motor when finished


Motor(s) twin 11"


----------



## Zombie 222 (Jul 3, 2014)

Karter2 said:


> so have you settled on which cells to use in your full pack ?
> Sounds like you had a "good day" at the strip !


John is testing some new cells from China with a good rep. that might work if they hold up to the Wayland stress test and of course you can never go wrong with Kokam. Without knowing the results of his testing, I would go with either the cells that John uses in the White Zombie or another Kokam cell that is a 75Ah with a 10 second discharge of 1150 amps.


----------



## epyon (Mar 20, 2008)

Zombie 222 said:


> We used a loaner battery pack to get some testing done before ordering the production pack and while it is not as powerful as what we are specifying, it really lets us see what the car is capable of doing. Plus we got to race some cool cars.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------

