# Planning 1994 Honda Acty conversion!



## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

Acty DCty said:


> Plenty of room for batteries in the pickup bed.


It would be nice if the battery would fit under the bed rather than in it. The mid-engine configuration isn't bad for that: if you put the motor where the engine was it takes some of the space in the middle that should be battery, but at least it doesn't have a shaft running down the middle like a front-end one truck would.


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## Acty DCty (Apr 22, 2021)

brian_ said:


> It would be nice if the battery would fit under the bed rather than in it.


Yeah, I saw a YouTube video where a guy did this. It makes sense if we're trying to keep it from getting top-heavy. But it does seem more involved, since we'd probably have to make our own battery boxes for mounting them that way.

What budget batteries and motor would you recommend for a tiny car like this? (I'm pretty sure it runs off a motorcycle engine right now.)


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## wjbitner (Apr 5, 2010)

Acty DCty said:


> Hey, friends! My buddy and I recently decided to try an electric conversion.
> 
> We found a working base-model 1994 Honda Acty in a used car lot, and it seemed to be a good fit. Manual transmission, manual steering, manual windows. Light, small frame. Plenty of room for batteries in the pickup bed. Rear wheel drive, right under the batteries.
> 
> ...


I would say the cheapest would be to use a wreck Nissan Leaf. However, assuming you want to keep the manual transmission, there is a far amount of effort involved in matching a Leaf motor to a different manual transmission, and a learning curve on how to control the Leaf systems. On the other hand, depending on the dimensions, you might be able to make the Acty a front-wheel drive using the Leaf front-end, depending on how much you are willing to cut and weld to the Acty. Looks like a fun project for sure.


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

Acty DCty said:


> Yeah, I saw a YouTube video where a guy did this. It makes sense if we're trying to keep it from getting top-heavy. But it does seem more involved, since we'd probably have to make our own battery boxes for mounting them that way.


It's not just to avoid being top-heavy (although that's a good point); it is a truck so it would be good to keep it functional for carrying cargo. If you put the battery in the box (or on the bed, as it's really a flatbed with folding sides), you need to build a structural floor over it to carry cargo on top if you still want to carry anything.

You might consider something like the current S-10 project (_1996 chevy s-10 conversion (part 2)_) in which the battery is in a simple box on top of the frame, with a flat load deck over the battery, not using the stock box. If you can mount the box low enough, you can incorporate wheel wells into the box.

It might make sense to start with the battery on the original bed, planning to move it underneath when everything works (and leaving space to do that).


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## Acty DCty (Apr 22, 2021)

Yeah, that's sort of what we're thinking right now! Get the electronics working while the batteries are in the bed, and then decide if we should move them below the bed. We don't really need to haul anything, so losing the use of the bed would be acceptable.

Thanks for the link! Will check that project out.


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## Electric Land Cruiser (Dec 30, 2020)

You just don't think you have a need to haul anything because your friends don't know you have a pickup truck yet 

I think your plan is a good one, get it running first then start the permanent modifications.


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## Kabuki (Jan 16, 2021)

I love this! I've always wanted an Acty!


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## Acty DCty (Apr 22, 2021)

We've started making videos about this project. We're still really early in the planning phase, but we're having a lot of fun. Big news is we've bought a motor and tested it, and are picking up batteries we bought from a warehouse in a couple weeks.

Thought folks might want an update! 🚙⚡


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## JK-1969 (Mar 15, 2021)

This is a very cool project. Looking forward to seeing it come together. I'm in the same boat as far as not really knowing what I'm doing but willing to learn.


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

I watched the video... I hope you realize that Kei car and truck engines are not actually motorcycle engines, although they are within the displacement range of motorcycle engines.


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

I apparently missed this when it was originally posted...


wjbitner said:


> I would say the cheapest would be to use a wreck Nissan Leaf. However, assuming you want to keep the manual transmission, there is a far amount of effort involved in matching a Leaf motor to a different manual transmission, and a learning curve on how to control the Leaf systems. On the other hand, depending on the dimensions, you might be able to make the Acty a front-wheel drive using the Leaf front-end, depending on how much you are willing to cut and weld to the Acty.


Although the Leaf drive unit (motor and transaxle) is in the front of the Leaf, there's no need to use it in the front. The Acty has the engine just ahead of the axle which it drives (the rear), just as the Leaf motor is just ahead of the axle which it drives (the front). Since the Acty is rear-wheel-drive, and doesn't use a live beam axle, it would probably be easier to use a Leaf unit in the rear than in the front.

Since this came up a motor has apparently been chosen, but I haven't seen any indication of what it is.

*Edit*: apparently a new thread has been started, for no apparent reason, so this one is now pointless.


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## Acty DCty (Apr 22, 2021)

Edit: We deleted the other thread. Didn't realize that posting here would sort it toward the top in the forum.

The motor is a used GE forklift motor that previously was used in a Toyota conversion. We have a video where we describe and test it.


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

Acty DCty said:


> The other thread was created just to share the videos. This thread is the one we're using to seek advice and input. If the video thread is in the wrong subforum, apologies, but we weren't aware there was a better place to put it.


If the videos are about your build, why not just put links to them in this thread? Otherwise, you'll have two threads, and people trying to help with any of your questions in this thread will be frustrated by only part of the information being available here.



Acty DCty said:


> The motor is a used GE forklift motor that previously was used in a Toyota conversion. We have a video where we describe and test it.


I saw that, which is why I made my comment. There's no point in running a thread "to seek advice and input" then sharing information such as your motor choice only in a different thread. If you have questions later about the motor, in which thread would you ask them? If it's in this thread, how would we know what you had chosen or done, since that's all in a video only mentioned in the other thread? One thread works.

I'll spare you my usual rant about videos instead of useful communication.


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## Acty DCty (Apr 22, 2021)

The video playlist is also posted in this thread. We'll be updating this thread as we create more videos. All of the information on our project can be found in this thread.

If you have further thoughts on our use of this forum, please take it to DM, so this thread can focus on our conversion project.


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## Acty DCty (Apr 22, 2021)

Hey folks!

As we progress with our conversion (full update coming soon), we're having a discussion about heating the cabin. Considering that heating the cabin is usually the biggest energy hog in an EV, we're thinking about how - or even whether - to do it. We are in Pittsburgh, which can get quite cold.

We do need a defogger so it's street legal, but we're split on whether to include any heating mechanisms for driver comfort. I know some EVs get around this by heating the seats, but I'm curious if we have the skills to realistically achieve that without setting something on fire.

If we included no heating mechanisms, it would basically just be a non-winter vehicle, which is OK with us. But I think we could still extend its months of operations a bit by insulating the cabin. Right now, there is basically no insulation: just two layers of metal between you and the cold.

My collaborators think insulating the cabin wouldn't achieve much, since most of it is windows (which we're obviously not spraying insulation on). But I think that adding a layer to the roof and back of the cab, plus a layer inside the door panel, plus a layer under the dash, would be worth the slight weight added.

The cabin is very small, which leads me to believe that, with more insulation, body heat might make a meaningful contribution to keeping it warm.

Thoughts on insulation?


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## Pehr (Jun 6, 2021)

In my old 1996 OEM Renault Clio Electrique it was a gasoline heater. Very efficient way of using the liquid energy. It was perfect during cold Swedish winters. It consumed something like 0.3 l/h at full power and did not use any of the battery’s energy (same range as in summer).


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## Acty DCty (Apr 22, 2021)

As promised, here is a text update on our progress!

We bought a used GE forklift motor. The motor has a SEPEX field and is capable of regen. I am not sure of the exact model number. It is capable of taking up to 120 vdc. We tested it, and it still works. Next step here is to disassemble and clean it. For those who like videos, we made a video about the motor here.
We bought a small quantity of 100 Ah 3.2vdc LiFePo4 batteries so that we can build a very basic circuit and start running tests. Wired in series, the batteries will total about 64vdc, which is about half what we expect to use, and we also roughly guess we will want 2 banks of them in parallel for 200 Ah. So, this is probably about a quarter of our final total of batteries. The batteries have a low charge and discharge rate: just 100 amps. But considering I can push the Acty uphill with one arm while there’s a passenger inside it, I think it will probably be fine. The calculation I did suggested that, even with the low discharge rate, 120vdc of these batteries would give us around 35 horsepower - almost exactly what the current engine offers. Anyway, if they don’t work for this, we’ll just sell them. Video about the batteries here.
We’ve built and installed an AM radio transmitter so that you can get phone audio over the car’s speaker. We’ve also installed a second speaker. (The car only came with one!) Videos about the transmitter are here: 1 2 3
We bought LED lights to replace the current lights in the car, and have been replacing them as the shipments arrive. 
We’ve ordered spray insulation, which we’ll use to help the cab retain heat better in winters. Video about energy efficiency here.
We ordered this controller, which should also be capable of regen. I hope it works with our other systems. We don’t know much about how these things work. I’ll be coming back here for advice once it arrives. (If it doesn’t play nice with our batteries and motor, I’ll just hock it on eBay again.)
We ordered a cheap potentiometer pedal that I believe should work with the controller.
Next up, we need a battery management system, and we’re not sure where to begin on that. Any suggestions?


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## Electric Land Cruiser (Dec 30, 2020)

Is that controller designed for Sepex motors? Sepex motors need a special controller that can adjust the field strength. Or I guess you can also run a fixed voltage field with a reduction in performance.

For BMS check out Daly. They have some good quality BMS with lots of features and nearly any voltage or cell combination you can think of.


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## Acty DCty (Apr 22, 2021)

The controller's page said it could do regen. Not 100% sure I trust it, but it's easy enough to resell if it won't work. We definitely want to use the SEPEX field.

Thanks for the BMS suggestion!


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## Electric Land Cruiser (Dec 30, 2020)

Sepex motors can regen, but it's not the same thing. Sepex motors do not have permanent magnets in them they require a separate field voltage applied. It's really hard if not impossible to find Sepex controllers that work over 60-70 volts or so which is why it piqued my attention.

I'm sure you guys could figure out how to make it work. You could use a separate controller with modified Arduino code possibly.

Here's a good explanation: Sepex Motors explained for dummies (like me) by JohnnieB

Sepex motors are like the modern induction motor of their time but now obsolete except in golf carts. But still quite a few good reasons to use it if you've got it!


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## Acty DCty (Apr 22, 2021)

Hey, thanks for that info! I had been under the impression that SEPEX and regen were the same - that one was necessary to get the other. Looks like we have some reading to do. Appreciate the link especially. Will come back with questions.


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

Acty DCty said:


> I had been under the impression that SEPEX and regen were the same - that one was necessary to get the other.


Regeneration, which is just running the motor as a generator, is possible with almost every type of electric motor, but the big exceptions are series-wound brushed DC motors: in series motors, the field winding is in series with the stator winding, so it's not possible to separately control the field - you can't "turn on" (excite) the field to make it generate. The controller linked earlier can only handle regen if there is no field winding, specifically in a brushed DC motor with permanents instead of a field winding. A SepEx motor (also called a shunt wired motor) allows separate control of the rotor (armature) and stator (field) current, so it can do regen... if you have a controller with separate armature and field sections, or two controllers which are coordinated as Electric Land Cruiser suggested.

You're off into obscure territory here, which is fine if you want to explore and learn. The vast majority of DIY conversion projects either use brushed DC series-wound motors (so they can't do regen), or use three-phase AC motors (which can all do regen). A few use permanent magnet DC motors (in small sizes); almost none use SepEx motors and it would be hard to find a single example of anyone using a SepEx motor with a custom set of coordinated by separate controllers.

Hopefully that round-up will help in interpreting what you find in your reading.


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## Acty DCty (Apr 22, 2021)

Fascinating.

We also have the option of just ignoring the SEPEX field and not doing regen, right?


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

Acty DCty said:


> We also have the option of just ignoring the SEPEX field and not doing regen, right?


Earlier you said that the "has a SEPEX field". Unless it has both a series field and a shunt (SepEx) field... no, you can't just ignore the SepEx field. You need a magnetic field, created by current in some field winding (or by induction which this motor doesn't do, or by permanent magnets which this motor doesn't have).


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## Acty DCty (Apr 22, 2021)

The way it was described to me is that it has 2 series fields and a SepEx field. In the video where we tested it, we got it spinning by just connecting the power to the series fields (ignoring the SepEx). I'll post a picture and label the parts when I get a second.


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## Acty DCty (Apr 22, 2021)

Photoshop is crashing on my little netbook, so I'm having trouble cropping and labeling a pic. But here's the part of the video where the original owner explained the motor (sorry Brian, I know you don't love videos, but the relevant info is conveyed within 30 seconds or so).

And here's the part where we test the series fields with a 12vdc current, just to make sure the thing wasn't DOA. We didn't hook anything up to the SepEx fields.


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## Acty DCty (Apr 22, 2021)

Here's a diagram:


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## rmay635703 (Oct 23, 2008)

Albeit off topic a Nissan Leaf motor has a 7/8” 20 count slip fit spline, Many Honda’s including the ACTY (depends on age can be 18 or 19 as well)
can have this same spline count on the transmission meaning you just need an adapter for the mounting face of the Nissan to mount up when the spline matches


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

Acty DCty said:


> Here's a diagram:
> 
> View attachment 123299


"Field" in this context means the stator winding(s), so the group labelled as "Connectors for main field" are actually 

the *armature* (rotor) connections (A1 and A2), and 
the series *field* (stator) connections (S1 and S2)


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## Acty DCty (Apr 22, 2021)

Thanks for clarifying! Still learning the terms for everything. Read a paper today about sepex fields and my brain leaked out my ears.

We opened up the motor and cleaned it, by the way. It was pretty heavily used. Should be in better shape now.


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## Acty DCty (Apr 22, 2021)

What adhesive do you folks use to attach two small pieces of plastic together? The piece is too small to drill holes in, and various forms of glues have failed us.


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## Electric Land Cruiser (Dec 30, 2020)

This stuff is my go-to for that, chemically bonds to plastics and also fills gaps, reinforces, etc: https://amzn.to/3ymb26Y


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

Acty DCty said:


> What adhesive do you folks use to attach two small pieces of plastic together? The piece is too small to drill holes in, and various forms of glues have failed us.


Adhesives work poorly on polymers in general, but exactly which polymer is very important. For instance, even the Permatex Permapoxy Black Plastic Weld suggested above works for many polymers, but Permatex says that it "will not bond polyethylene and polypropylene plastics". For some polymers, solvent bonding is the practical solution - that's how ABS and PVC pipes are joined.


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## Acty DCty (Apr 22, 2021)

We're finishing up our circuit diagram!

We are building an EV system with 96VDC, 100A. We have this controller. Anyone got any idea what specifications the precharge relay should have?


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## Acty DCty (Apr 22, 2021)

We've got a bunch of new parts, including a Daly BMS for LiFePO4 batteries that meets our specs, and our full set of batteries.

We also cleaned and rebuilt our motor, built a heat sink for our controller, tested our potentiometer pedal, replaced the incandescent light bulbs with LEDs, installed cabin insulation, and fixed some mechanical issues in the car.

Video updates are here, for those who like videos:

Motor rebuild
Energy efficiency improvements part 2
Building the heatsink for the controller
Testing the BMS, and generally getting annoyed with Daly
Fixing a steering issue
Messing around with dumb stuff in the car
We're probably working on our precharge relay next. Also need to figure out what we need between the BMS and the wall plug. Would be happy to hear recommendations on these steps!


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## mons2b (Nov 17, 2015)

wjbitner said:


> I would say the cheapest would be to use a wreck Nissan Leaf. However, assuming you want to keep the manual transmission, there is a far amount of effort involved in matching a Leaf motor to a different manual transmission, and a learning curve on how to control the Leaf systems. On the other hand, depending on the dimensions, you might be able to make the Acty a front-wheel drive using the Leaf front-end, depending on how much you are willing to cut and weld to the Acty. Looks like a fun project for sure.


I’ve seen tons of people mating leaf motors to manual transmissions. Oddly they seem ideal for it. Not much learning curve if you can afford a resolve ev box. IMO the easiest solution these days unless you go for a simple dc motor system


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

mons2b said:


> I’ve seen tons of people mating leaf motors to manual transmissions. Oddly they seem ideal for it.


I don't know about "tons", but it is certainly being done. Unlike many EVs, notably all Teslas, the Leaf motor unbolts from the transaxle as a usable motor with a complete housing; that makes mounting it to a different transmission much more practical. Other motors provided for production EVs by suppliers who don't also build the transaxle (perhaps Siemens) are likely to be similar, but the Leaf is far more common than any other EV that might have this feature, so both a supply of salvage motors and aftermarket and hobbyist support is much better than for the alternatives.


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## Acty DCty (Apr 22, 2021)

We've already got a motor, so unless we break it or it doesn't work, we're all set there. Interested in folks' thoughts on how to set up precharge relays, and what parts we need to plug the BMS into the wall.


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## remy_martian (Feb 4, 2019)

It's got new paint, so of course the motor will work.

You should have changed the bearings out while you had it apart, though.


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## Acty DCty (Apr 22, 2021)

Anyone got any ideas for how we can load our motor to do out-of-vehicle testing? We'd rather not run it without a load, but we're not sure how to apply one artificially.


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

Acty DCty said:


> Anyone got any ideas for how we can load our motor to do out-of-vehicle testing? We'd rather not run it without a load, but we're not sure how to apply one artificially.


The classic approach is simply a brake: mount a hub in a carrier, complete with a car's brake, and connect it to the motor with an axle shaft. A load cell in the carrier mounting would let you measure torque. That won't let you run at significant load for very long before the brake overheats, but it could serve the purpose. The term "brake horsepower" comes from the use of this sort of device - a type of dynamometer - to measure engine power output. More sophisticated brake systems have cooling systems, and use hydrodynamic brakes (like a car's automatic transmission torque converter) instead of a mechanical friction brake.

The better approach, but presumably way too much expense and work for basic testing, is to couple the test motor to a generator with its own controller, so you can vary the load (and use the generated power to partially recharge the battery used for testing). This is how good dynamometers work now.

In any dynamometer there can be a flywheel, usually huge, to simulate the inertia of the car which is going to be driven. The inertia is considered in the calculation of how much torque and power that the is producing... some chassis dynamometers (the ones on which as car sits, with its drive tires rotating big rollers) really only have a flywheel, and are used only to simulate acceleration runs.


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## Acty DCty (Apr 22, 2021)

That's really helpful. Thanks!


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## remy_martian (Feb 4, 2019)

Water pump


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

remy_martian said:


> Water pump


Yes, a water pump would be a load that could absorb a useful amount of power, and you could even control it to some extent with a throttle on the outlet.


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## Acty DCty (Apr 22, 2021)

I know I saw a calculator linked somewhere on this site that would take the weight, aerodynamic coefficient, and kWh of a car to calculate how many miles it could drive. Anyone know where I could find that?


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## Acty DCty (Apr 22, 2021)

Lots of progress to report! (The links are to videos with more details.)

We set up our BMS.
We inherited a solar panel and discussed why most EVs don't have rooftop solar.
We repaired a broken heater, confirming its heating element will probably work when we put it in our system, and used the heater to test our insulation and estimate the driving miles saved from our energy efficiency work.
We finally did a full drive system test: batteries, BMS, precharge circuit, controller, pedal, motor. We need to reprogram our controller, but crucially, it looks like everything we acquired will actually work together.
Next up: programming the controller, setting up the charger (it's in supply chain limbo), and running tests on our SepEx field.


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## Acty DCty (Apr 22, 2021)

We have been having a whole lot of trouble talking with our HL200200 controller (documentation here). What we have set up: Direct serial cable connection with the controller. We have confirmed that all pins are connected correctly. The switch is set to UART communication. We have been trying to send it bytes over serial, through both Python's serial module and CuteCom. We send bytes to the controller, but all we can get back is whatever we sent to it. Screenshot attached.

We aren't sure what we're doing wrong. Any ideas?


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## Acty DCty (Apr 22, 2021)

Dumb question, but - are there risks to grounding the circuit to the car chassis? I've been assuming that's ok for the 12v aux circuit, but is it really OK to treat the car chassis as a ground for the drive circuit?


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## remy_martian (Feb 4, 2019)

The vehicle high voltage system should not be grounded to vehicle chassis. 

For that reason, any DC-DC charger that takes the HV battery voltage and converts it to 12V should be an isolated converter because you'll have the 12V side connected to the chassis.


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## blackterminal (Oct 14, 2021)

Acty DCty said:


> Dumb question, but - are there risks to grounding the circuit to the car chassis? I've been assuming that's ok for the 12v aux circuit, but is it really OK to treat the car chassis as a ground for the drive circuit?


When you buy a J1772 interface kit from EV West or other sources it specifies you must earth to the car body so I think the answer to your question is yes.


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## Acty DCty (Apr 22, 2021)

My current guess is that the charging circuit is supposed to be grounded; the drive circuit is not.


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## remy_martian (Feb 4, 2019)

blackterminal said:


> When you buy a J1772 interface kit from EV West or other sources it specifies you must earth to the car body so I think the answer to your question is yes.


The answer to the question is not his recklessly concluding yes, but *NO*.

A charger earths to the chassis of the car for *mains* (your 120VAC/240VAC etc power source) shock hazard protection. A mains fault (short to chassis or reversed polarity power plug, for example) in the car and you leaning on it in the rain will trip the breaker or GFCI (if it's a small current leak that is large enough to stop your heart but not trip the breaker) if the chassis is grounded....with no mains grounding to the chassis of the car means the GFCI could be blind to your electrocution.

The charger itself, however, is supposed to be electrically isolated, by its design (you can buy nonisolated supplies, which are temptingly cheaper...don't do it) from the HV pack and traction circuit.

To be clear...the AC side of the charger's ground (from the incoming power cable) is chassis grounded, the DC side is not.

This is not something you *guess*, but you validate and verify as something called "due diligence" because not doing so and listening to us idiots on a forum can be lethal.

So you DO NOT connect either HV DC battery, or its isolated DC charger, polarity to the chassis. NO.


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## Acty DCty (Apr 22, 2021)

That aligns with what we're hearing from other sources. Thanks!


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## Acty DCty (Apr 22, 2021)

Update: we seem to be basically done building the drive circuit. Next, we're going to start taking gas parts out of the car.

Videos here with details:

Setting up relays & interlocks
Building a DIY engine hoist
Programming the controller
Setting up the onboard charger
Testing the SepEx field
Testing the DC-DC converter
Messing around under the dash
Also, thanks for your feedback on the grounding issue. We also consulted a few electricial engineers & everyone seems to be on the same page (do *not* ground drive circuit to chassis). We incorporated this information into one of our videos. Our videos are aimed at the "I've never done this before" audience, so context like this is useful.


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