# [evdl] with dummy gen but not hybrid



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] WITH DUMMY GEN BUT NOT HYBRID*



> On 1 May 2011 at 1:18, hi-tech wrote:
> 
> > What about installing a generator to be 'moved' by the car itself.?
> > [not with an ICE] ....when going downhill, coasting to the next red light
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] WITH DUMMY GEN BUT NOT HYBRID*

OK,

But since most *conversion* use dc motors with no regen, due to complexity
and cost i guess, I wanted to know if anyone here can do the numbers for a
low cost system. I did not even use the term brake-regen. 

What i have "seen" is just using the same motor as the gen, but my
suggestion is different, let me add that we should be thinking of permanent
magnet gen. 

I let it on the table for those who have been at it longer than me. --
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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] WITH DUMMY GEN BUT NOT HYBRID*

Lee, 

"my old Datsun pickup conversion had a simple motor and controller, and
*did* do regen. That's because the motor was a surplus aircraft
starter-generator, which works quite well as a generator."

lucky you

"The simple way to use the motor as a generator is to pick a motor type that
is *good* at being a generator -- PM, and wound-field motors (shunt,
sepex)."

hard to find i guess

"Or, add a second generator or alternator, used expressly for regenerative
braking."

sounds better

"It is fairly common in low-cost conversions to belt drive the old
alternator from the traction motor for battery charging / regenerative
braking."

how you prevent the gen from loading the motor when it needs to work pushing
the car.?

"The expensive way is to use an AC induction motor or series DC motor with
interpoles, with an expensive controller that does support regen."

most likely out of the question, unless ev conversion expending is not an
issue.

"As a rule, regenerative braking adds 5-15% to your range. The more starts
and stops you do, and the more hills you have, the more regen adds."

sounds right, not impressive dough, but ok for those who like to play

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] WITH DUMMY GEN BUT NOT HYBRID*

>> my old Datsun pickup... *did* do regen... the motor was a surplus aircraft
>> starter-generator, which works quite well as a generator.



> hi-tech wrote:
> > lucky you
> 
> I was being cheap, not lucky. A series motor would have cost me $1000 --
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] WITH DUMMY GEN BUT NOT HYBRID*

Lee,

Good feedback as always, 

"A more sophisticated way is to rewind the alternator for a higher voltage
and lower current, so it can charge the propulsion pack instead of the 12v
battery."

That's mainly what i had in mind, but did not explain myself very well. May
I add, that if i dont want to apply the brakes, a manual switch could be
used, like when going downhill.

Do they sell 'rewinded' or new alternators for that purpose?, no time for
that kind of work, maybe later, and,

not too exicted about the whole thing now... after you clarified that range
or efficency will typically increase by 5-15%

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] WITH DUMMY GEN BUT NOT HYBRID*

Do a google search for chevy alternator for windmills. Saw something like that a while back.

Stub
-- 
Sent from my DroidX with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.



> hi-tech <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> Lee, Good feedback as always, "A more sophisticated way is to rewind the alternator for a higher voltage and lower current, so it can charge the propulsion pack instead of the 12v battery." That's mainly what i had in mind, but did not explain myself very well. May I add, that if i dont want to apply the brakes, a manual switch could be used, like when going downhill. Do they sell 'rewinded' or new alternators for that purpose?, no time for that kind of work, maybe later, and, not too exicted about the whole thing now... after you clarified that range or efficency will typically increase by 5-15% -- View this message in context: http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/WITH-DUMMY-GEN-BUT-NOT-HYBRID-tp3487453p3491725.html Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at Nabble.com._____________________________________________
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> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] WITH DUMMY GEN BUT NOT HYBRID*

Also look up a book called "alternator secrets". 

If you can't find it I have a copy at home and can send it.

Stub
-- 
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> Chris Stephens <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> Do a google search for chevy alternator for windmills. Saw something like that a while back. Stub -- Sent from my DroidX with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity. hi-tech <[email protected]> wrote: Lee, Good feedback as always, "A more sophisticated way is to rewind the alternator for a higher voltage and lower current, so it can charge the propulsion pack instead of the 12v battery." That's mainly what i had in mind, but did not explain myself very well. May I add, that if i dont want to apply the brakes, a manual switch could be used, like when going downhill. Do they sell 'rewinded' or new alternators for that purpose?, no time for that kind of work, maybe later, and, not too exicted about the whole thing now... after you clarified that range or efficency will typically increase by 5-15% -- View this message in context: http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/WITH-DUMMY-GEN-BUT-NOT-HYBRID-tp3487453p3491725.html Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discus!
> sion
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] WITH DUMMY GEN BUT NOT HYBRID*

An alternator that produces 14V at 1500rpm makes 140V at 15,000 rpm, there
are other limitations, but alternators for 24V trucks are common, get one of
those, run it at 7500 rpm? An alternator with a 3:1 ratio in a car that does
7000 engine rpm turns at 21,000 rpm at peak revs, so 7500 is ok?
Disconnect the internal reg, and bring the brush wires out to an
external reg.
-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf
Of hi-tech
Sent: Tuesday, 3 May 2011 5:08 p.m.
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [EVDL] WITH DUMMY GEN BUT NOT HYBRID

Lee,

Good feedback as always, 

"A more sophisticated way is to rewind the alternator for a higher voltage
and lower current, so it can charge the propulsion pack instead of the 12v
battery."

That's mainly what i had in mind, but did not explain myself very well. May
I add, that if i dont want to apply the brakes, a manual switch could be
used, like when going downhill.

Do they sell 'rewinded' or new alternators for that purpose?, no time for
that kind of work, maybe later, and,

not too exicted about the whole thing now... after you clarified that range
or efficency will typically increase by 5-15%

--
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BUT-NOT-HYBRID-tp3487453p3491725.html
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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] WITH DUMMY GEN BUT NOT HYBRID*

I forgot, remove the diodes too and bring the 3 phase out to an external
rectifier, the internal diodes won't take the higher voltage


-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf
Of hi-tech
Sent: Tuesday, 3 May 2011 5:08 p.m.
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [EVDL] WITH DUMMY GEN BUT NOT HYBRID

Lee,

Good feedback as always, 

"A more sophisticated way is to rewind the alternator for a higher voltage
and lower current, so it can charge the propulsion pack instead of the 12v
battery."

That's mainly what i had in mind, but did not explain myself very well. May
I add, that if i dont want to apply the brakes, a manual switch could be
used, like when going downhill.

Do they sell 'rewinded' or new alternators for that purpose?, no time for
that kind of work, maybe later, and,

not too exicted about the whole thing now... after you clarified that range
or efficency will typically increase by 5-15%

--
View this message in context:
http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/WITH-DUMMY-GEN-
BUT-NOT-HYBRID-tp3487453p3491725.html
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Nabble.com.

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No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com 
Version: 9.0.894 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3595 - Release Date: 05/02/11
06:34:00

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] WITH DUMMY GEN BUT NOT HYBRID*

> An alternator with a 3:1 ratio in a car that does
> 7000 engine rpm turns at 21,000 rpm at peak revs, so 7500 is ok?

This is an assumption?

I don't know of any. Typically the ratio is 2:1 not 3:1 and if you have an
engine turning 7000 rpm it is a really small diameter stator or the ratio is
even less than 2:1

That being said there are 24 volt alternators that will do in excess of 70
volts and you could wire the outputs in series with the fields in parallel
to get some decent voltage / current.

ANY YES, 7500 alternator rpm is no problem.




Sincerely,
Mark Grasser



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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] WITH DUMMY GEN BUT NOT HYBRID*



> George Tyler wrote:
> > An alternator that produces 14V at 1500 rpm makes 140V at 15,000 rpm
> 
> That's true, and useful if you're building an ICE driven alternator to
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] WITH DUMMY GEN BUT NOT HYBRID*

I've acquired an ex-military aircraft alternator with the following ratings: 8K RPM, 24KW, 120/240VAC, 400hz 
This beauty, liberated from the NAS Alameda depot long ago, has seen no flight time, but was meant to be wing-mounted and ram-cooled, has two clear paths around the body for clamp-style mounts, and has an approx 7/8" non-tapered, smoothbore hollow driveshaft with keyways at both ends, so it should be easy to adapt whatever drive dystem is desired, plus add a cooling fan on the opposite end. If mounted to an engine, belted at an appropriate ratio, and run at fixed rpm to match or exceed my 240V pack voltage (to provide maximum amps without a transformer, and I''m thinking of speed control via an aftermarket cruise control setup with magnets mounted on the pulley instead of a driveshaft);

1) Would full-wave rectified DC from a quality 3-phase alternator like this pose similar risk that causes Manzanita to warn about ugly waveforms damaging chargers when using 240V (single phase) gensets?

2) Does rectification cause any stress to the alternator that would reduce it's ratings? (Keeping in mind that Manzanita says to only charge off DC in the 100 to 390 VDC range, and I've already added a dc-rated circuit breaker to the charger input.)

Alternatively, would something like the following provide charger protection when using a cheap single phase 240V genset? (50A,1750 Joules rating)

http://www.campingworld.com/shopping/product/portable-surge-guard/2279

EVen after building an EV, my skull is well insulated against advanced electrical theory!

Thanks, 
Jay
www.karmanneclectric.blogspot.com


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] WITH DUMMY GEN BUT NOT HYBRID*

Lee, 

Sorry you had to go back and suggest the transformer again, after you being
so clear,.

"So, build yourself a normal "third world" transformer rectifier charger
that converts 12vac from the alternator to pack voltage. The same alternator
can charge your 12v accessory battery *and* your pack, and is controlled by
the standard 12v regulator."

At first my mind went 'negative' reading just this.

""third world" transformer rectifier charger"

Reading again i see is a good very easy solution. Similar to my 12-48 dc-dc
converter, in another thread, for another applications, but never mind.

pd 
saved all other suggestion, for later slow reading.

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] WITH DUMMY GEN BUT NOT HYBRID*

The claw-pole alternator (the design used almost universally in vehicles
today) is strikingly inefficient; 50% to 60% is typical. This is an artifact
of the rotor design so it isn't something that can be, uh, 'rectified' by
using better materials. Converting the vehicle's momentum into heat is
something the stock mechanical braking system already does quite well - no
need to add an electrical system that does much the same 




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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] WITH DUMMY GEN BUT NOT HYBRID*

jeffrey, 

"This is an artifact of the rotor design so it isn't something that can be,
uh, 'rectified' by using better materials."

nobody wants to waste 50%

did you design yours?

what's the problem with the rotor?

how should it be designed?

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] WITH DUMMY GEN BUT NOT HYBRID*

>> ""third world" transformer rectifier charger"



> hi-tech wrote:
> > At first my mind went 'negative' reading just this.
> 
> "Third world charger" is kind of a slang term for a simple charger that
> ...


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