# If you're running flooded lead batteries



## ElectriCar (Jun 15, 2008)

and you've had to replace them, what brand and model were they and how many miles did you get? If there still operating how many miles have you on them and does it appear they're getting weaker?

I'm running US Battery XC2200 at 144V. I have 4500 miles on them now and either the cold has gotten them sluggish, which I don't think is the case or they are on their way out. 

When I got my truck running last December, they once died at 28 miles. Of course that included running the heater and lights a ton as well. At the time I had them open on the top. Since then I've fitted bubble wrap on top to maintain heat in the winter. That BTW is a good solution to cold batteries!

The reason for my post, I put 20 miles on it the other day and you could hear the vacuum pump running slow and the car getting very sluggish. I wondered if I'd make it home. It didn't used to do that until maybe 25 miles. Now days I notice the performance dropping off after 15 miles.

Mostly I drive 4-8 miles round trip and recharge. Occasionally I may go 10-15 miles and rarely I'll go 20-25. I've only gone that far maybe 5-6 times out of 4500 miles of driving.

I've not read how long lead should last so I thought I'd start this thread to see what you guys are experiencing.


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## ElectriCar (Jun 15, 2008)

Wow 36 views and no replies? Do you all not use lead anymore? I can't imagine that.


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## TheSGC (Nov 15, 2007)

Have you kept track of the cycles on your batteries? 

I have a set of Walmart MAXX29, 96 volts and I found that they needed to be equalized every 30 cycles, but instead of equalizing them I had them replaced under warranty because I was lazy.

Are you charging your batteries to US Battery's guide? If so, you would be the third person in the past two weeks who has said their US Batteries have started to die after a short time. US Battery recommends charging to 2.583 volts per cell, which is what should be used for equalizing and not full out charging for long battery life.

Just my observation.


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## ElectriCar (Jun 15, 2008)

Well sort of. I have a Zivan charger and usually unplug it when it reaches about 170-175V. I let it equalize, which it will do if I leave it connected every time, usually every 5-10 charges. I think I have about 600 charges on the pack.

If I let it charge that high which would be 185V it wastes a lot of energy and I get lots of gas generation. So I guess I'm stopping the charge at about 2.43V.


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## Sunking (Aug 10, 2009)

Maybe I have misunderstood but it sure sounds like you have taken your batteries below 50% DOD many many times. You do know that is a No-No right? If you have done that, you significantly shortened the battery life.


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## ElectriCar (Jun 15, 2008)

Sunking said:


> Maybe I have misunderstood but it sure sounds like you have taken your batteries below 50% DOD many many times. You do know that is a No-No right? If you have done that, you significantly shortened the battery life.


Most trips are 4-8 miles with a few 10-15 miles and on extremely few occasions 25-30 miles. I think I limped to the shop once when they conked out due to not having my Paktrakr installed and not being sure of my range. 

I may have slaughtered them but I do go where I have to go. If I ever do drive it 10+ miles I recharge it immediately. I have a receptacle to use at the office and home. If I have to go more than 7 or 8 miles one way I usually drive my diesel.


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## chansen (Mar 13, 2009)

I'm getting about a 25% range reduction in the cold (about 40 degrees farenheit). If you have decent lead acid batteries they will be able to take some limping home trips as long as you charge them immediately. 

In the cold, the internal resistance of the lead acid battery is higher resulting in the sluggishness. This doesn't necassarily mean you have discharged them deeper (as measured by the chemical composition of the acid).

I equalized once a month and I can tell the difference in range and acceleration for 4-5 days. Probably (i have not measured this) because one or more of the pack batteries internal resitance is increasing more than the others causing a relatively large voltage drop.


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## dtbaker (Jan 5, 2008)

ElectriCar said:


> ...I have about 600 charges on the pack.


Thats not too bad to start seeing some loss in range I think.... especially if you went below 50% DOD many times, or had less than ideal regular watering... combined with cold weather I'd say you are within expected limits.

MY batteries are dying prematurely after 4000 miles in about 11 months, BUT had considerable abuse starting with delivery... dropping 4, spilling some electrolyte and cracking one case completely. I did repair the case, but suspect that there is reduced gap at bottom for junk piling up and maybe shorting. On top of that I did a poor job with regular watering before I installed Flow-rite system, and probably damaged them..... I need to go inspect with meter to see if I have one bad battery, or all bad.....


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## ElectriCar (Jun 15, 2008)

Dan I checked my spread sheet yesterday and I've only got about 300 charges on it. I've recorded just over 200 but there is several more than that. 

I don't think I've discharged it over or near 50% often at all. Most trips as I said are less than 10 miles with a few over that and only twice that I recall ever getting over 25 and probably less than 10 times past 20 miles.

One thing I've done that I probably shouldn't have, but I read on here somewhere to do that, is to not recharge it unless I went over 10% dod. So I waited until I had at least 3-4 miles on it before I recharged it. Now I recharge it if I go more than a mile or so!


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## Guest (Jan 21, 2010)

I am going on 10 years with my EV and have almost 50k miles on it. The first year and a half I ran 12 Exide 12volts. It was a year of learning so I can't completely blame the batteries but I barley got 20 miles to the charge and the batts where pretty empty by the time I would get back home. Like I said that was a learning period so they don't count . I switched to Trojan T-875's . That bumped me up to between 30 to 35 miles @ 50% DOD and that is with hilly terrain. I am charging with a Zivan ng5. With my first pack of 8Volt batteries I marked down everything I did for three and a half years. I had a stack of papers an inch thick that even told when I washed the tops. I took readings before they charged while they charge and after they charge. I took hydrometer readings just about every month. If I would have gotten minimum wage for all the hours I spent monitoring those batteries the second pack would have been paid for with change back. After three and a half years and about 550 charges I decided to get a new pack. The old pack was probably still good by the standards of some but I could feel them beginning to slow down. This time I said to heck with it. All I'm going to do is make sure they have water and keep the terminals tight and clean. Now after almost four years and close to 600 charges I am getting ready for my third pack of T-875's. This pack has been dropping off in performance quite noticeably the last 30 or so charges. I don’t like to charge unless I’ve got 30 miles or pretty close to that. I don’t like to let the car set over night with even a partial discharge so if I make a trip to town and is only 10 miles or so I take a little trip down one of these neat windy roads and drag the batts down closer to 50% before I go home. I expect to get some flack on that but its a fun car to drive so I don’t feel like I losing anything. I feel I have had pretty good luck with these batteries. The only thing that has p*ssed me off is this third pack is going to cost me almost twice as much as the first.


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## ElectriCar (Jun 15, 2008)

Wow you discharge it down to 50% before you recharge? I had a set of Trojan's in a scissor lift. They lasted a lonnnnnng time with lots of use. We recharged that thing as often as possible. Replaced them with another set of Trojans but they lasted maybe half as long as the charger was not working properly. 

Replaced those with US batteries which didn't last but maybe half as long as the 2nd set of Trojans, still working with problematic charger. Replaced them again and our sales rep said to discharge them way down before charging. This guy was either an idiot or wanted me to kill them to sell me another set! Last set I bought was the same as in my truck, US 2200XC and installed new charger. Hardly any use on those yet but frankly, I don't care what US battery claims, their batteries don't hold a candle to Trojan's. Don't get near as much run time on them before they die versus the Trojans. 

If I were to go back with lead, I'd go with Trojan if they don't cost more than maybe 10-15% more. They'll give you more than the added cost in life and performance.


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## rmay635703 (Oct 23, 2008)

I have been reading rumors and complaints about trojan batteries decreasing in quality and performance ever since cost cutting has gone down at the trojan plant.

Anyone else confirm this? It seems US battery has had several bad runs of batteries in the last couple years and interstate has been crap almost 10 years now. (all 3 were very good manufacturers at one time) Heck I know several old foggies running C-cars with batteries over 15 years old, good to remember they drive a couple times a week at very light discharges.

Does anybody make better quality FLA in the current overpriced lead market or are we just screwed to use poor quality regardless of who we buy from?

I hear surrette still makes good batteries but from reading they are pure crap for an EV, only usable for solar/wind at light loads due to the high losses

Any truth to this? Are there any up and comers in FLA?


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## Russco (Dec 23, 2008)

rmay635703 said:


> I have been reading rumors and complaints about trojan batteries decreasing in quality and performance ever since cost cutting has gone down at the trojan plant.
> 
> Anyone else confirm this? It seems US battery has had several bad runs of batteries in the last couple years and interstate has been crap almost 10 years now. (all 3 were very good manufacturers at one time) Heck I know several old foggies running C-cars with batteries over 15 years old, good to remember they drive a couple times a week at very light discharges.
> 
> ...


Interstate batteries are relabeled US batteries. Interstate only carries the Mickey Mouse 5/16" stud + short post terminals that aren't recommended for on-road high EV amperage. Buying direct from US Battery distributors, the terminals can be ordered in a variety of styles including the desirable L and automotive post styles.

Trojan is probably the best battery, but are more expensive, have poor distribution on the west coast, and are difficult to obtain in optional post styles.

I have been using US Batteries for the last 20 years. US Battery has increased their battery ratings, distribution is good, and prices are about $100 for a US-125 in the San Francisco area.

User driving style/mileage and charging is probably the greatest effect on battery performance, not the battery itself.

Russ Kaufmann

RUSSCO Engineering

http://russcoev.com


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## dtbaker (Jan 5, 2008)

I've been happy with my US batteries... despite the fact that I hammered them the first 6 months with poor watering routine, they are still 'ok'. Probably shortened life, but still ticking for now.


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## atzi (Jun 26, 2008)

I have 8,000 miles and maybe 550 cycles in 10 months on my Excide 8 volt *GC8V-110*s. They are shot now. I did let them get a little low once, ran them below 80 DOD a couple times (anyone who never done that has must not use them for real world use). They would have lasted longer except the Quick Charger over charged them a few evenings until I realized it and replaced the charger. In their prime they would do 37 miles. 
My plans are to move over to LiFePo4s.


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## squatch81 (Nov 9, 2009)

Does anyone have any experience using Crown batteries? I am planing to use them when I do my conversion. They seem to have a good reputation, and I can get a discount from the local distributor through my employer.


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## MN Driver (Sep 29, 2009)

squatch81, I don't have personal experience using Crown batteries but from what I recently read on the windsun.com Deep Cycle FAQ page, they say they have thicker plates, which means that they can withstand more cycles before the positive grid corrodes out. Of course you would need to take good care of them to keep them from sulphating and not abusing them in order to take advantage of that benefit. I'm not an expert on the specific topic of plate thickness but since it is the surface area that provides you with the reactionary surface, the extra life probably comes at a cost of less acid in the cell for its physical size and likely more weight due to the additional lead. So it might weight more than a comparable battery that might last a shorter duration, but that's an educated hunch on my part. It might be helpful to compare weight and capacity to similar group sizes of other brands to get an idea of whether or not they are acceptable on an energy density standpoint.


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## racunniff (Jan 14, 2009)

ElectriCar said:


> and you've had to replace them, what brand and model was it and how many miles did you get? If there still operating how many miles have you on them and does it appear they're getting weaker?
> 
> ...
> 
> I've not read how long lead should last so I thought I'd start this thread to see what you guys are experiencing.


I just got my car back on the road today. It used to be 144V of US-8VGC floodies. I put 3700 miles on them, and then got tired of the acid mess. They seemed to be working fine still - I donated them to a local solar energy DIY group.

I now have 216V worth of Concorde AGM-1280T sealed batteries. Only 80Ah, so the pack is 17 kW nominal (compared with 24 kW nominal of the floodies). However, the lack of acid damage is worth it, and the Peukert exponent of the AGM batteries makes up about 25% of the difference. Plus, the whole thing weighs 180 pounds less.


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## rmay635703 (Oct 23, 2008)

squatch81 said:


> Does anyone have any experience using Crown batteries? I am planing to use them when I do my conversion. They seem to have a good reputation, and I can get a discount from the local distributor through my employer.


Seems like I remember both crown and surrette sp? and one other similar to surrette are very good choices for solar/wind but also very poor choices for most ev conversions. Reason being that their under load capacity is rather poor, I remember one guy being very dissappointed with their performance in his ev, his batteries had much more on paper ahr capacity than trojans but actually drove him less distance because the capacity at 100amps was much lower with the surrettes which were intended for lower loads.

There are liers damn liers and battery salemen, get the 100amp rate for the battery or better yet a chart for the battery you intend on buying, you may find some that have massive Ahr don't have it at high discharge rates and some batteries that have very long cycle lifes, weigh more but have less usable capacity for an ev.

Not saying they don't work but you need to use the battery within its specifications if you want to be happy. And I am not familiar with crown or surrette specs, so without looking I can't say if the paticular battery you want will suffer from any of the above issues. Also a battery that has high peukert but high capacity can work very well if you plan on discharging the battery more slowly by pluggin around town 25mph. AKA it will have more range under lighter load than a less ahr trojan.

Cheers
Ryan


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## dtbaker (Jan 5, 2008)

racunniff said:


> I just got my car back on the road today. It used to be 144V of US-8VGC floodies. I put 3700 miles on them, and then got tired of the acid mess. They seemed to be working fine still -


what 'acid mess'? I've had the floodies going for just about a year and 5000 miles with no mess. Little bit of smell at tail end of charge cycle, but that's about it.

That being said, I AM switching to Li as soon as this pack dies now that the cost/cycle for Li has come down to be less than FLA over the expected 10 year life (3000 cycles) of the Li.


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## racunniff (Jan 14, 2009)

dtbaker said:


> what 'acid mess'?


I don't know if it was the US Battery 8VGC batteries, or the Zivan charger always doing a balance, but see these posts. Quite a mess.


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## dtbaker (Jan 5, 2008)

racunniff said:


> I don't know if it was the US Battery 8VGC batteries, or the Zivan charger always doing a balance, but see these posts. Quite a mess.


hhmmm, I am using usb 8vgchcx and a zivan charger as well.... I have NOT had any leaks or even any apparent 'misting' that people talk about. Although I may not have noticed any in my rear box because it is all polypro lined, not metal. My front batteries are not enclosed, but I haven't seen any signs of drips except where I set battery caps at first when I was checking levels individually. I have noted that the flow-rite caps and watering system reduced the final stage odor and reduced the water use, so maybe those caps work better than the stock ones at re-capture of the out-gassing?! The flow-rite caps DO have a rubber gasket which can become misaligned if you are not watching....


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## ElectriCar (Jun 15, 2008)

Updated data

*Mileage: *7000 miles now. I moved further from work so now I drive 11 miles each way averaging about 480wh/mile. It seems that since moving out this far the pack has gotten stronger. Explain that one!

I decided a while back on a day of about 50F to see just how far I could go, thinking I'd have to start pushing around 20 miles. To my surprise I made it to 30! Gently accelerating to maximize the distance of course but I made it back safely with power to spare, not much but I could have went I suspect 2-3 more before it died. 

*Water Usage:* They aren't using very much water at all. In fact I've not filled them but maybe 3 times to date, with distilled water of course!

*Charge Count:* Estimated about 380. About 15 times a week.

*DOD Average:* Estimated about 35-40% per charge

I'm now wondering how much longer this pack will last as it still seems to be doing pretty well now.


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## Guest (Dec 16, 2010)

600 full charge cycles or short cycles? Cold will hurt your range but you must remember that you have lead acid and they just don't provide the range or power for long per charge. I used floodies for my Ghia and went from 72 volts to 96 but saw no real increase in distance. Some increase but not really a whole lot but the performance was a dramatic change. Cold or warm the floodies never got me much beyond 20 to 30 miles at any decent speeds. I think you have done quite well from what you have said. don't equalize your pack so much. It really is not needed to that extent. Just keep an eye on batteries that may be low in power. Some do just crap out early. I use Sam's club Energizer. So far so good. 

Pete


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## subevo (Aug 23, 2008)

first set of trojans lasted 3000miles bought a cheaper brand called ranger they lasted 1000miles.i will never use lead again a waste of time.imho.

ive spent £1800.i will be getting lithium next.


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## dtbaker (Jan 5, 2008)

my first pack of 12 x 8v floodies went 7337 miles in 2 years with daily use around 20 miles, and still had about 50% of original range of 35-40 miles. In my case, they started degrading pretty steadily the last month or two, and my 20 mile range daily use was getting right on the edge.... so I pulled 'em and have upgraded to 120v (38x) 100ah thundersky cells; WAY better performance, less physical space, and 500# lighter.


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## ElectriCar (Jun 15, 2008)

I've yanked them out of mine and am in the middle of a Calb 200Ah upgrade. I'm also raising the voltage using 50 cells which I expect to be putting out 165V or so when driving versus about 115-135 depending on terrain. Since I have no experience with lithium I'm not really sure but I'm working to drop weight which will add to the mileage and lessen the amp load. 

I have about 8500 miles on mine and they still performed close to the way they did when new it seems. Still only added water maybe 3 times *but I think the key is that I used distilled water only, never tap water.*


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