# LG Chem and Delta-Q QuiQ?



## frodus (Apr 12, 2008)

The 72V QuiQ charger algorithms start around 73V at the lowest cutoff algorithm, up to about 98V at its highest cutoff algorithm. You can't use it BY ITSELF with a 67V pack without severely overcharging it. You'll need a BMS to shut it off when you hit HVC on one cell. If you don't have a BMS, then you should not use this 72V charger, you should use a 48V charger (range from about 49V up to 65.5V), and charge to 65.5VDC.

Also, you can change the algorithms if you have the programmer, but you need the Lithium algorithms. They only include lead acid algorithms in the programming kit. I'm one of the few out there that program them for Lithium, and DeltaQ won't give them to you if you ask. I provide a programming service if you need. DeltaQ will make you go to Fullriver or somewhere else and they charge a ton.

You cannot make your own algorithm for that charger. The software allows you to load an algorithm from DeltaQ, but not to manipulate it in any way.


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## jbman (Oct 26, 2017)

toper said:


> I have previously purchased a Delta Q QuiQ Charger, and I am now in the market for some lithium packs. I was looking at the LG Chem batteries, which have a nominal voltage of 60.8v and have a 45Ah capacity, so about 2.6kW.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I can't speak to reprogramming that charger, but the voltage difference is a massive issue. Lithium cells never, ever go above the maximum voltage per cell when charging - not a single volt. In addition, smart lead acid battery chargers enter a float phase where the voltage will jump up significantly. The initial 5 volt difference is a huge deal, and hitting the float charge would be catastrophic. 

Whatever you decide to do, don't use the charger as is.

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## jbman (Oct 26, 2017)

frodus said:


> The 72V QuiQ charger algorithms start around 73V at the lowest cutoff algorithm, up to about 98V at its highest cutoff algorithm. You can't use it BY ITSELF with a 67V pack without severely overcharging it. You'll need a BMS to shut it off when you hit HVC on one cell. If you don't have a BMS, then you should not use this 72V charger, you should use a 48V charger (range from about 49V up to 65.5V), and charge to 65.5VDC.
> 
> Also, you can change the algorithms if you have the programmer, but you need the Lithium algorithms. They only include lead acid algorithms in the programming kit. I'm one of the few out there that program them for Lithium, and DeltaQ won't give them to you if you ask. I provide a programming service if you need. DeltaQ will make you go to Fullriver or somewhere else and they charge a ton.
> 
> You cannot make your own algorithm for that charger. The software allows you to load an algorithm from DeltaQ, but not to manipulate it in any way.


I have a 2.5kw Elcon charger in my MG that was originally programmed for lead acid. I considered just using my BMS to shut it off when it hit the cutoff voltage, but the extra layer of not-burning-my-house-down security if something went wrong was worth the wait and coin to get it reprogrammed.

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## boekel (Nov 10, 2010)

jbman said:


> I considered just using my BMS to shut it off when it hit the cutoff voltage, but the extra layer of not-burning-my-house-down security if something went wrong was worth the wait and coin to get it reprogrammed.


This is the correct answer.

A charger with a fixed profile needs to be set at the 'normal' maximum charge voltage, the BMS only kicks in if there is a problem in the pack (single cell overvoltage, too low / high temperature, etc)

The other option is a CANbus controlled charger, usually sourced cheaply from scrapped EV's, or the still not so expensive Elcon TC Chargers.


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## john61ct (Feb 25, 2017)

I do not recommend it, but it is possible to *******-engineer this, set multiple independent/redundant HVD cutoffs to turn off an overvoltage charger below the pack's max safe voltage.

But getting close to 100% Full if you need that (the bank chemistry does not) will require pulse / delta-peak, all CC stage no CV charging,

letting V drop say 10-30min, then adding more Ah, multiple cycles until Resting V is at your SoC target.

Automating that would be a PITA and fragile, best done with you acting as regulator.


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## jbman (Oct 26, 2017)

john61ct said:


> I do not recommend it, but it is possible to *******-engineer this, set multiple independent/redundant HVD cutoffs to turn off an overvoltage charger below the pack's max safe voltage.
> 
> But getting close to 100% Full if you need that (the bank chemistry does not) will require pulse / delta-peak, all CC stage no CV charging,
> 
> ...


And by the time you've done all of this work, you still have a huge fire risk that needs babysitting, even if it does end up being cheaper. I think I spent $60 or $70, including shipping, for the reprogram. I dont know what these other folks would charge, but if you cant find someone to do it reasonably, sell that charger and buy another. Its risky and a pain in the butt, best case.

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## john61ct (Feb 25, 2017)

Yes I did say not recommended.


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## jbman (Oct 26, 2017)

john61ct said:


> Yes I did say not recommended.


Didn't mean to imply that you did, only strengthening the disapproval!

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## john61ct (Feb 25, 2017)

Came across some 270dc output PSUs, apparently widely used now in aviation and military gear.

Super as a "buss / backbone" voltage, especially where distances make wire gauge expensive,

only 15A gets you 4kW!

as long as you treat it with due respect, get a pro to help sign off on noob-level DIY wiring, that high is potentially instant-stop-your-heart deadly.

DC-DC step-down conversion units seem to be available pretty cheap?

_______
But really, the sweet spot for safely charging seems to be 48 nominal (up-to-60V), so much robust quality clean-output but cheap server / telecom gear is out there second-hand.

I think maybe building packs in that range, then quick-disconnect serial'ing them to get to 96, 144 etc volts is the way to go, just switch those blocks to parallel while charging.


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## toper (Jul 12, 2018)

So are you thinking of using the 270v/15A and then using a DC-DC to bring it down to 48v?

I am definitely open to ideas, I haven't bought the battery yet, but do you think it'd be a better deal than $329 for a 2.6kW battery? That's like $130/kW. I ultimately want to be in the 144v range, how inexpensive do you think that method would be?


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## john61ct (Feb 25, 2017)

Yes that's the idea, but it would be risky pioneering.

Best in practice to just spend the money to buy the proper OTS charger designed for that bank.

Which can often cost lots more than the bank, but hey it's just money.


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## frodus (Apr 12, 2008)

toper said:


> So are you thinking of using the 270v/15A and then using a DC-DC to bring it down to 48v?
> 
> I am definitely open to ideas, I haven't bought the battery yet, but do you think it'd be a better deal than $329 for a 2.6kW battery? That's like $130/kW. I ultimately want to be in the 144v range, how inexpensive do you think that method would be?


What motor and controller are you going to use? That will dictate your pack voltage requirement. 

You can use a DeltaQ QuiQ with that 16s pack, just not the 72V charger. You'd need a 48V charger and have it programmed.

There are 96V DeltaQ QuiQ that go from like 96V to about 130VDC range with the algorithms I've got. Beyond that, you might need a different charger.


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## EVmattyP (May 12, 2019)

I also have bought these LG A7 battery modules. I'm struggling to find a way to charge them collectively. 

As they are 16S each already I was told I'd have to keep the battery pack configuration to 3P2S and finding a charger that could balance that pack would be very difficult. I may have to resort to charging each module individually. I do also have the additional balance harness for each module. 

This is all new to me and I'm trying to prevent my investment from exploding or burning my house down! Any advice will be appreciated.


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## jbman (Oct 26, 2017)

EVmattyP said:


> I also have bought these LG A7 battery modules. I'm struggling to find a way to charge them collectively.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Is there some kind if extra board or circuitry in those batteries? I ask because I do not see why you would be limited in such a way on configuration.

The charger does not balance the cells. It only puts power into the battery pack. It doesnt know or care if the pack is in balance. That is the job of the BMS. The BMS will make sure that no cell is overcharged or overdischarged. It will also facilitate balancing the cells. As long as you can get to each cell somehow (like a connector with BMS leads for each cell), you can hook a BMS up to the cells. The BMS will turn off the charger if there is an issue. Otherwise the charger will just happily chug along until it reaches its maximum voltage and tapers off. Perhaps you can post the message you were given about the 3p2s configuration so that we can make sure things line up?

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## EVmattyP (May 12, 2019)

jbman said:


> Is there some kind if extra board or circuitry in those batteries? I ask because I do not see why you would be limited in such a way on configuration.
> 
> The charger does not balance the cells. It only puts power into the battery pack. It doesnt know or care if the pack is in balance. That is the job of the BMS. The BMS will make sure that no cell is overcharged or overdischarged. It will also facilitate balancing the cells. As long as you can get to each cell somehow (like a connector with BMS leads for each cell), you can hook a BMS up to the cells. The BMS will turn off the charger if there is an issue. Otherwise the charger will just happily chug along until it reaches its maximum voltage and tapers off. Perhaps you can post the message you were given about the 3p2s configuration so that we can make sure things line up?
> 
> Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk


You're 100% correct. I misspoke. What I meant to say was that each of these modules has a BMS in it already (if I'm not mistaken) and I ordered an additional pigtail harness for each module that I was expecting would provide signal information about the condition of each of the 16 cells. I believe I wrongly assumed that power would need to be put through the harness as opposed to the terminals.

In the picture I've posted you can see the two small white plugs on each side of the middle connector. I believe those small plugs will provide the signal from each of the 16 cells to the main connector which is then output through the harness I bought to a larger or a "total system" BMS. That was my understanding but I may be wrong. 


about the batteries being run in parallel, I reached out to several EV conversions shops and only 2 contacted me back. EVwest and AMPrevolt. Evwest advertises these batteries as being run in a 6S configuration only. Here is the email response I got from AMrevolt:

"_Hi Matt,

Can’t dive in right this minute but I quickly scanned your email. 

Sadly we don’t endorse putting those modules in parallel. Life would be SO much cooler (and cheaper and lighter) if we did, but because the BMS cannot see and control all it needs to when cells are in this configuration, it’s just not recommended without a lot of expensive mods and design time. We’ve been down this road a few times and always conclude to not do it. You might have seen others do it for short term races or whatev, but I know of no long term builds that attempted this.

Plus you mention building reliably for the next owner, so there’s another reason.

If you want to stick with these modules, I’d recommend using them in series with a high voltage motor. Unfortunately that rules out HPEVS and Netgain’s Hyper9 unless you use like only 2-3 LG modules.

This is kind of major, so wanted to let you know asap."_

I was really hoping to utilize all 6 modules I purchased in a 3S2P configuration so that I could run the new 144V hyper9 motor and get twice the Ah rating. 

Sadly, I just don't know what I really need to make this all work. I feel like I bit off more than I can chew and I'm trying to avoid just shipping this off to EVwest to be built by them. I'd like to do it myself but I keep running into issues over major hurdles that everyone else seems to see but me.


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## john61ct (Feb 25, 2017)

Seems like a coulda shoulda woulda situation.

If you can't

1. find & pay a specialist in these cells to mod them properly, or

2. DIY strip out / bypass their BMS, hook the bare cells up as you like and replace its protections with your own or OTS gear,

then it looks like you're SOL and need to try to get as much of your money back on those packs as possible, and start off from scratch with different packs,

this time really doing due diligence before spending the money.


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## baxy (Dec 24, 2017)

I have these batteries and intend to configure as 2S5P with zeva BMS and hyper9 , the connectors are simply a tap to each cell + 2 temp sensors. The zeva BMS has a setting to define the number of parallel strings.


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## baxy (Dec 24, 2017)

3S is too high for the144v hyper9 controller which netgain has informed me cuts out at 184V, so ideally you would want to remove 4 cells


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## jbman (Oct 26, 2017)

Are you set on the hyper9? It's pretty darn pricey for 88kw peak... perhaps other options would work?

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## EVmattyP (May 12, 2019)

jbman said:


> Are you set on the hyper9? It's pretty darn pricey for 88kw peak... perhaps other options would work?
> 
> Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk


Is there a better motor for the money? 120hp 163tq seems pretty good for a 144v motor. I haven't seen anything better.


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## jbman (Oct 26, 2017)

EVmattyP said:


> Is there a better motor for the money? 120hp 163tq seems pretty good for a 144v motor. I haven't seen anything better.


OEM motors are massively more powerful for the money. A Tesla motor from Ebay runs less than the hyper9, and it's good for 400kw. I dont know anything else about the project, though, so it's hard to make any kind of recommendation. 

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## EVmattyP (May 12, 2019)

jbman said:


> OEM motors are massively more powerful for the money. A Tesla motor from Ebay runs less than the hyper9, and it's good for 400kw. I dont know anything else about the project, though, so it's hard to make any kind of recommendation.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk


According to Michael from EVwest you need a custom controller and interface for it and that would run about $10k for the whole package. VS $4300 for the hyper9


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## jbman (Oct 26, 2017)

EVmattyP said:


> According to Michael from EVwest you need a custom controller and interface for it and that would run about $10k for the whole package. VS $4300 for the hyper9


You can get a tesla drive unit off of Ebay or whatever for 2-3k, and a control board from Damien for 500. Your comfort level and experience will dictate how much you really have to pay. If your only choice is the hyper9, dump those batteries and get some other ones. You'll dig a bigger hole trying to use them.

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## baxy (Dec 24, 2017)

jbman said:


> If your only choice is the hyper9, dump those batteries and get some other ones. You'll dig a bigger hole trying to use them.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk


Can you explain why?


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## jbman (Oct 26, 2017)

baxy said:


> Can you explain why?


Because EVWest does not recommend it, and it will add needless complexity to a project that is already pretty big. If you can get rid of the batteries without consequence and use different ones, you'll be able to avoid the problem entirely. You haven't built anything at this point - don't continue down the path with something that isn't suitable just because you have it. Just my 2c.

I design my system as a collection of components ahead of time as much as possible to make sure there won't be any goofy issues like this when it comes time to actually build things. This stuff adds up and gets annoying/expensive.


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## frodus (Apr 12, 2008)

jbman said:


> Because EVWest does not recommend it, and it will add needless complexity to a project that is already pretty big. If you can get rid of the batteries without consequence and use different ones, you'll be able to avoid the problem entirely. You haven't built anything at this point - don't continue down the path with something that isn't suitable just because you have it. Just my 2c.
> 
> I design my system as a collection of components ahead of time as much as possible to make sure there won't be any goofy issues like this when it comes time to actually build things. This stuff adds up and gets annoying/expensive.


That's the opposite of what Michael at EVWest said to me yesterday when I called. They like the cells, and so do several other people I work with on high performance EVs. They're popping up on several EV Parts websites.

Now, yes, they do require some particular design criteria, but they're available, affordable and well-suited for a conversion.

What's the difficulty? Wiring BMS to it?


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## jbman (Oct 26, 2017)

frodus said:


> That's the opposite of what Michael at EVWest said to me yesterday when I called. They like the cells, and so do several other people I work with on high performance EVs. They're popping up on several EV Parts websites.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Use them, then. It's your project. As long as you're comfortable sorting out the BMS and can be sure they read properly, have a ball. 

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## baxy (Dec 24, 2017)

jbman said:


> Because EVWest does not recommend it, and it will add needless complexity to a project that is already pretty big. If you can get rid of the batteries without consequence and use different ones, you'll be able to avoid the problem entirely. You haven't built anything at this point - don't continue down the path with something that isn't suitable just because you have it. Just my 2c.
> 
> 
> 
> I design my system as a collection of components ahead of time as much as possible to make sure there won't be any goofy issues like this when it comes time to actually build things. This stuff adds up and gets annoying/expensive.


EVWests objection seems to be an incompatibility or increased complexity with their choice of BMS. I did do research and I'm pretty confident I'll have no problem with my choice of BMS. I thought you may have had some extra personal experience or knowledge about these modules to inform your opinion, but that seems not to be the case


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## jbman (Oct 26, 2017)

baxy said:


> EVWests objection seems to be an incompatibility or increased complexity with their choice of BMS. I did do research and I'm pretty confident I'll have no problem with my choice of BMS. I thought you may have had some extra personal experience or knowledge about these modules to inform your opinion, but that seems not to be the case


My objection, if you want to call it that, is that you were unaware of what you bought or how to use it. The last thing I want to do is push someone down a more complex path on a very expensive project when it sounds like they are already confused at step one. Hence my recommendation to take a minute and plan what you need and ask questions before buying parts. My only concern was for the success of your project. I've got no skin in this game.

I've never used those batteries, and I personally wouldn't, but that doesnt mean they wont work fine for you, assuming you're willing to figure it out. You can make almost anything work at this point. You sounded like you wanted plug-and-play off the shelf components, especially with the reference to the hyper9.

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## baxy (Dec 24, 2017)

Are you confusing me with the original poster?


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## jbman (Oct 26, 2017)

baxy said:


> Are you confusing me with the original poster?


I'm confusing all kinds of people, which I realized earlier because I'm on my phone and keep getting quoted and replying thinking it's the same person. Whoever's whatever this is, have a blast. Lol.

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## baxy (Dec 24, 2017)

jbman said:


> I'm confusing all kinds of people, which I realized earlier because I'm on my phone and keep getting quoted and replying thinking it's the same person. Whoever's whatever this is, have a blast. Lol.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk


Yes, It seems you're confused about a few things . Lol


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## jbman (Oct 26, 2017)

baxy said:


> Yes, It seems you're confused about a few things . Lol


I would still never use a hyper9, though, lol. No confusion there. Not in a million years would I spend that kind of dough on such a weak motor with all of the options out there. I wonder why companies spend so much time and money developing such expensive motors when OEM stuff is so much better and so readily available. My second build, including the car and batteries, will cost close to just the hyper9 motor and controller. The first clocked in a bit above that.

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## baxy (Dec 24, 2017)

Where do you live?. Because I can tell you OEM options are non-existent in Australia


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## frodus (Apr 12, 2008)

jbman said:


> Use them, then. It's your project. As long as you're comfortable sorting out the BMS and can be sure they read properly, have a ball.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk


I would probably figure it out quite well if *I was currently working on a project*. It seems likely that you've confused me with someone else, the same way you seem to have confused Baxy for EVMattyP.

Might I make the recommendation to fix your phone or read who you're responding to, so you don't make this mistake again?

For your information, I'm a Sr. Sales and Applications engineer in the EV industry. I've consulted for Elithion and Manzanita Micro for their BMS customers and before I closed my business, sold several flavors of BMS. Been here on the forum since maybe 2007, converted a motorcycle in 2008, opened a side business selling EV parts in maybe 2010, welded the batteries for MotoCzysz's Isle of man bike in 2009, and have been a part of multiple other large projects, the latest of which is a 50KW go kart for a large Kart manufacturer. I know batteries, I know BMS.

These batteries aren't hard, they're just not what you'd choose, and that's just fine. My only curiosity was your reasoning, which seems more personal preference.

It looks like the discussion about these batteries not being recommended started around post 16 in this thread by EVMattyP: https://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1037695&postcount=16

The reasoning behind EVWest not recommending them for parallel applications is the same reasoning I list in this other thread, by EVMattyP, on post 6:
https://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showthread.php?t=200295

While EVWest doesn't list a solution directly for how to get around paralleling, I detail this in my response. You would use twice the BMS, which I outlined.

It looks like EVMattyP is the one *(I agree completely here)* that should maybe pause and look at his application in more detail. He started another thread about it. He's got only one real option for configuration if he wants to use HPEVS or Netgain. EVWest said his only option would be to go higher voltage and jump to a higher voltage motor and controller. 

It appears that baxy (the one you keep replying to) is aware of the issue and is using my recommendation of a distributed BMS from Zeva to take care of two parallel packs of modules.

Not game changing, and not insurmountable. It's very likely that you'll run into this issue with any manufacturer designed module. For "2nd hand" cells, we're limited. Camax batteries and Nissan Leaf modules are great cells that allow you to parallel at the cell level with large bussbar, they're just not that power dense.

*Anyway, they're good modules, you just have to think about the application before jumping in.*


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## jbman (Oct 26, 2017)

frodus said:


> I would probably figure it out quite well if *I was currently working on a project*. It seems likely that you've confused me with someone else, the same way you seem to have confused Baxy for EVMattyP.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Man, the egos are for real on this forum. Yeah, I made a mistake, yes, I thought you were a different poster. I said as much a post earlier. I'm not trying to pick a fight with anyone. My bad. Let's move on with life.

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## john61ct (Feb 25, 2017)

Every post has the author's handle clearly marked.

How can you handle the dangerous high-tech electrickery details, 

if you find that confusing?


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## leman2112 (Dec 2, 2018)

Hey this is a cool thread because I am currently in the same boat and just bought a 20kwh LG chem pack from a Chrysler Pacifica hybrid that I am currently scratching my head about! lol any sweet 48v chargers putting out big amps that would stop charging at 65.5 v that you guys recommend??? I want to try one. I bought a Zivan ng3 because you can set the high voltage cutoff at whatever you want inside with a adjustable pot screw. Still gotta get it reprogrammed to the right charging algorithm I guess if anyone can reprogram it cuz Zivan is elcon and elcon is not reprogramming chargers right now for whatever reason?? Man this is a ball! Hey keep it up bro! These guys have all already used these types of batteries somehow. We'll figure it out! 

https://www.google.com/search?site=...lbum.jpg;S:http://evalbum.com/;FORID:1;&hl=en

I just did a search on ev album typed in= LG chem.


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## frodus (Apr 12, 2008)

You're just wanting something for maintenance of each module, correct?

Are you ready to build the pack?

You might just let them sit at their current SOC until you're ready. Typically the storage SOC recommended by the manufacturer is 50-60%, but it varies. I would not store them at 100% SOC.

If you want for your full pack voltage, you should get one that matches the final design.


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## leman2112 (Dec 2, 2018)

Hey thanks frodus! Good to know the battery storage tips! 

Nope getting closer though I can feel it!

Haha 

Still gotta figure out how I want to set it up. Gotta choose a spot welder to buy.

Would like to keep as many cells stock as possible but not sure if it is possible. Liked the idea of adding thermal management system some day and taking full advantage of the cells. Probably gonna look more like this when done though the way my seasonal employment is going.= Derp

http://www.evalbum.com/popupimg.php?27769

Like how simple it looks. Just was thinking it might be nice to keep my packs in tact and buy more cells to add on. Or just remove cells from only two of the packs??

Might even skimp out on a bms and try the battery monitoring method people have been talking about. Looks cheaper wich might be smarter right now? 

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=HPyeQCkcMUE

And still no idea how to get my zivan charger reprogrammed. But I really love EVs and can't imagine slowing down ever with this project. It's pretty fun my parents went and bought brand new electric cars. Hyundai ionic and a leaf!

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## john61ct (Feb 25, 2017)

Didn't realize Zivan = Elcon
last I heard they can often reprogram for a nominal charge, like $45 + shipping

ZIVAN USA
ELECTRIC CONVERSIONS
515 North 10th Street
Sacramento, CA 95811
Tel. 916-441-4161
Fax 916-444-8190
elcon @ jps . net
http://www.zivanusa.com


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## leman2112 (Dec 2, 2018)

Sweeet! yeah, I will call zivan back again tommorrow thanks! Hopefully they don't got a million chargers to program right now everyones gettin ready for summah, cleanin up their yards getting pumped up for super dope season!!


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## swo (May 17, 2019)

Hi I just got some of these batteries to replace lead in a few cars


anybody know the pin outs of the bms plugs on the battery think 15 wires out on front plug and 12 wires out of rear plug
for now just want to check each cell


thx


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## frodus (Apr 12, 2008)

Where did you purchase them? Would the seller have this information?


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## baxy (Dec 24, 2017)

swo said:


> Hi I just got some of these batteries to replace lead in a few cars
> 
> 
> anybody know the pin outs of the bms plugs on the battery think 15 wires out on front plug and 12 wires out of rear plug
> ...


It's pretty simple to test with a multi meter. From memory there is 2 wires for the most negative and most positive cells 1 wire for each cell in between and 2 wires for each of the 2 temp sensors per module


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## swo (May 17, 2019)

seller said they dont have it
ev west has it but wont give it to me
Juhe made one up for his video but dosnt respond to email about it




with 15 (i think)wires out the front plug and 12 out the back plug

hum now that i think of it maybe more ?? 30-32 total??


for now just want to add cell checker to keep an eye on each cell without opening the covers
maybe bms later


dont want to short any cell or test contenuity on lots of voltage


also have bosch 24v cells to do this with also


thank you


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## x.l.r.8 (Oct 20, 2018)

PM me for the pins and bms wiring diagram.


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## swo (May 17, 2019)

that's great
thank you


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## swo (May 17, 2019)

Hi 

new to PM
tried it twice but nothing back
did you receive it?
thank you


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