# HEV Motor Traction systems



## bjfreeman (Dec 7, 2011)

This is my introduction and my interest.
My interest got started back in 96 with the PEM fuel cells for Buses.
They are now valid and operational.
But all the electrics for Buses are 200 hp and use a gear ration to get the torque as the expense of speed.
My eventual goal is to have 4 3phase 450V traction motors, Peak 200kw, 150KW continuous.this configuration will give 600 HP at passing speeds on 15% incline @ 60 mph. for a 10,000 gross weight.

Acceleration is about 180 second to 60mph.
The cruising consumption is about 96KW Total on flat.
Each Traction motor will have its own Battery, capacitor bank, inverter group. The Charger/power source will vary but supply all 4 traction units.
Since the front wheels present special mechanical problems, I am currently focusing on just the rear power train. So the first iteration will be 300 HP which should let me work out the kinks.
So why am I posting here.
Well I think we can help each other since some can take the traction motor and drive a 1 ton 4 wheel.
First question is where is all this KW coming from.


two 35KW PTO alternators driven by the original engine.
Two Capstone multifuel Turbine Alternators that would fit where the Engine was.
300KW Fuel cells or more.
 

If you have suggestion or question please post. Nothing is propretary.


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## bjfreeman (Dec 7, 2011)

OK I think from reading the forum that there may be confusion about HEV.
in My Case it means Hybrid Electrical Vehicle in reference to 10 Ton Vehicles Like Bus Conversions.


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

bjfreeman said:


> OK I think from reading the forum that there may be confusion about HEV.
> in My Case it means Hybrid Electrical Vehicle in reference to 10 Ton Vehicles Like Bus Conversions.


Hi bj,

I think we know HEV means Hybrid Electric Vehicle. The confusion is with your post, IMO. What is it you want? I read it several times and it does not make much sense to me. 



> First question is where is all this KW coming from.


 

Sorry. You'll have to be a bit clearer.

major


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## steven4601 (Nov 11, 2010)

Are you sure about all you have just posted? It looks like a dream rather than a plan or a idea. Dreams hardly ever come true, plans have a better success  

300kw (power) fuelcell will cost likely more than 20million dollar.


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## bjfreeman (Dec 7, 2011)

steven4601 said:


> Are you sure about all you have just posted? It looks like a dream rather than a plan or a idea. Dreams hardly ever come true, plans have a better success
> 
> 300kw (power) fuelcell will cost likely more than 20million dollar.


A 150KW fuel cell is being used currently. BC Transit has deployed 20 hydrogen _fuel cell buses_ in _Whistler the cost for buses and hydrogen infrastructure was 2 million.
do a google since I can't post urls.

and there are many Traction motor being built and repaired that exceed the 200KW.

_


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## bjfreeman (Dec 7, 2011)

major said:


> Hi bj,
> 
> I think we know HEV means Hybrid Electric Vehicle. The confusion is with your post, IMO. What is it you want? I read it several times and it does not make much sense to me.
> 
> ...


ooops I meant 10K lbs.

I am sharing a project I am on.
A bus conversion package for the power train.

"First question is where is all this KW coming from. " was rhetorical an I answered it .


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## gor (Nov 25, 2009)

to OP:

"My eventual goal is to have 4 3phase 450V traction motors, Peak 200kw, 150KW continuous.this configuration will give 600 HP at passing speeds on 15% incline @ 60 mph. for a 10,000 gross weight."

200 kw = 268hp; 600hp = 447kw

please, clarify


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## steven4601 (Nov 11, 2010)

Maybe I was over pessimistic about the FC pricing. That is pretty interesting information to hear the bus could be manufactured for 2 Million dollar.

200Hp would get the bus way quicker than 180 seconds to 60mph though!! (20 seconds is more likely)


This company makes busses & wheel motors for busses: http://etraction.nl/


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## bjfreeman (Dec 7, 2011)

gor said:


> to OP:
> 
> "My eventual goal is to have 4 3phase 450V traction motors, Peak 200kw, 150KW continuous.this configuration will give 600 HP at passing speeds on 15% incline @ 60 mph. for a 10,000 gross weight."
> 
> ...


"Have 4" or 200KW per wheel for four wheels.
that is power delivered to the motor.
yes for 600HP total need 223.5 HP per wheel
I like to design with more than required.
experience has taught me that the overall cost is less for the lifetime of product.


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## bjfreeman (Dec 7, 2011)

steven4601 said:


> Maybe I was over pessimistic about the FC pricing. That is pretty interesting information to hear the bus could be manufactured for 2 Million dollar.
> 
> 200Hp would get the bus way quicker than 180 seconds to 60mph though!! (20 seconds is more likely)
> 
> ...


your funny. the two million was 20 buses that used PEM from ballard and 4 hyrodgen producting stations. so I am guesssng the buses were under $500K
here is the PEM Unit spec sheet.
http://www.ballard.com/files/PDF/Bus/HD6.pdf


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## bjfreeman (Dec 7, 2011)

steven4601 said:


> This company makes busses & wheel motors for busses: http://etraction.nl/


I looked at those and they have few draw backs. One they will not fit the 22.5 in wheels used currently on buses, they will not work on front wheels because of the wheel wells, and they are only 96KW peak.

thanks though


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## bjfreeman (Dec 7, 2011)

steven4601 said:


> 200Hp would get the bus way quicker than 180 seconds to 60mph though!! (20 seconds is more likely)
> 
> 
> /


are calculating this on 22.5 tires with 1:1 on `10k lbs 160 ft/lbs 
I agree with you at 600hp


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## steven4601 (Nov 11, 2010)

Oh tobad the wheel motors are not within desired wattage. 

You mentioned motor torque, but torque is (almost) irrelevant with the correct gearing.

I don't want to sound ignorant, but its in the 20 to 24sec ballpark with 200hp to get a 5000kg vehicle to do 60mph.

with a reasonably geared 600hp (470kw?) motor your in the sub 9seconds ballpark for a 0-60 with a 5000kg vehicle.


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## bjfreeman (Dec 7, 2011)

steven4601 said:


> Oh tobad the wheel motors are not within desired wattage.
> 
> You mentioned motor torque, but torque is (almost) irrelevant with the correct gearing.
> 
> ...


Traction motors are usually 1 to 1.
this design each wheel has a motor, Batteries, Controller.
each wheel could power the bus the others being free wheeling.
this also allows anti skid through regen
Normal only the back wheels are used for cruising.
Front wheels can also be used as front wheel drive without the back pair.

The capacitor packs provides acceleration in a 10 sec window then the battery pack takes over.


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

steven4601 said:


> You mentioned motor torque, but torque is (almost) irrelevant with the correct gearing.


Don't get me started  http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showthread.php/torque-irrelevant-relevanti-36904.html


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

bjfreeman said:


> Traction motors are usually 1 to 1.


That is incorrect for any electric vehicle larger than the size of a scooter. All EVs and HEVs use gear reduction between the traction motor and wheel except for a few experimental jobs which are destined never to make it to market.


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## esoneson (Sep 1, 2008)

major said:


> That is incorrect for any electric vehicle larger than the size of a scooter. All EVs and HEVs use gear reduction between the traction motor and wheel except for a few experimental jobs which are destined never to make it to market.




One exception to your rule is a hub motor for motorcycles. Both light weight and heavy chopper. 

Example for the big boys:
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=20931&start=60

I've been following Mark's development for a few years now.

see www.enertrac.net 

MarkCycle is a member here.


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

esoneson said:


> One exception to your rule is a hub motor for motorcycles. Both light weight and heavy chopper.
> 
> Example for the big boys:
> http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=20931&start=60
> ...


I think it fits the exception categories I mention, scooter and experimental 

I don't want to start a discussion about it. It is off topic and this is not the place. I also follow markcycle's development. He sponsored Catavolt. He appears to be a smart hardworking fellow.


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## steven4601 (Nov 11, 2010)

major said:


> Don't get me started  http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showthread.php/torque-irrelevant-relevanti-36904.html


Wow ! what a can of worms. It made me sad actually


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## bjfreeman (Dec 7, 2011)

major said:


> That is incorrect for any electric vehicle larger than the size of a scooter.


well now I was already to jump down your throat and then did a Google search to prove you wrong. Looks like the definition has expanded since 96.
At that time traction Motor were related to the motors used on Electric trains and trolley.
OK then I am speaking of Traction motors where there is one Motor Per wheel on a multiple wheeled vehicle. The Protean is the only US one that is in wheel, that can be OEM that I know of.
I like the design of the Protean but they are not interested in a 200KW unit.
So I have developed a 200KW oil Cooled 3phase 450 VAC squirel cage electric motor that direct drive the wheel.


major said:


> All EVs and HEVs use gear reduction between the traction motor and wheel except for a few experimental jobs which are destined never to make it to market.


Maybe a few years ago but there are few like protean that has a good chance of making it.
My stuff is Just for 10K lbs or more.
Since I plan to market this to a select Group, I doubt it will be considered mainstream. Sort of like electric Drag Racers.


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## bjfreeman (Dec 7, 2011)

BTW I have prototyped two of these motors and the components that power and drive them. 
Currently working on packaging on my old 1950 Fageol.
Then we start the testing of climbing the Siscuse in worst Winter and Summer conditions, was well as Death valley.
the is a few Decades of design and testing into this.

My reason of posting is there might be someone that can see how to better what has been done so far. And someone might see something they are interested in.

in that flavor I started a thread related to powering the vehicle while underway


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

bjfreeman said:


> At that time traction Motor were related to the motors used on Electric trains and trolley.


Traction motor refers to the propulsion motor regardless of where in the vehicle it is located. And trains (locomotives) have the traction motors on the axles however they are gear reduced.



> The Protean is the only US one that is in wheel, that can be OEM that I know of.


Actually an UK based company. They picked up the pieces when PML Flightlink went belly up. Wonder why 

Wheel motors (and 1:1 motors) can work for experiments and scooters. But will continue to be at a disadvantage competing with a gear reduced motors. You can search this forum and find a few of my rants on the subject. 

And you  Whatever it is you have, you'd get better response here with photos 

Good luck,

major


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## bjfreeman (Dec 7, 2011)

Thanks Major Appreciate your view.
Not sure why pictures are necessary for the discussion.
I am providing the Schematic and PCB with layout for the Power system at this time.
this is a glossy of the Motor the mounting to the wheel is still in progress. they are different for each class of bus.


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## gor (Nov 25, 2009)

check hubmotors on the big industrial staff
they can be also everywhere, where hydraulic wheelmotors used


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## Anaerin (Feb 4, 2009)

gor said:


> check hubmotors on the big industrial staff
> they can be also everywhere, where hydraulic wheelmotors used


Hydraulic wheelmotors can be used for high-torque, low-speed applications. At high speeds, the friction and viscosity of the oil makes for massive losses. Hydraulic wheelmotors are good, as they are sturdy and can take a lot of abuse (vibration, shock, and much more), but their weight (made from solid components, and with the added weight of the hydraulic fluid) makes for poor performance and handling, with such massive unsprung weight.

Electric wheelmotors are typically lighter, which is great for unsprung weight (though they still weigh more than regular wheel hubs). However, they are much more complex internally, making them more fragile, so vibrations and shocks, like potholes, could easily cause massive internal failure.

The best option, IMHO, would be a back-to-back direct-drive double-motor system that can be dropped in, in place of the differential. It seems to me that "current" electric wheelmotors (Of which there seem to be many prototypes, but no actual models "in-the-wild" at the moment) could very easily be adapted to this kind of mounting. Then existing half/drive-shafts can be re-used, while space saving is made all over. It would also negate any unsprung weight issues, and give a very good, solid point from which torque can be transferred, rather than having problems stiffening the multi-link suspension systems of better cars to take the direct torque. It would also allow a controller system to be integrated as well, with less issue than trying to fit the very fragile electronics into a wheelmotor, and without EM/noise issues caused by long power lines from the controller to the motors.

I know that e-traction's "TheWheel SM350" (http://www.e-traction.nl/index.php?id=14) is a possible version of this, but that seems as much vapourware as their SM450 car wheelmotors (And, as you can see by their new site, is being very much downplayed), and I don't see anyone else even thinking about something like this. If someone made one of these (Which shouldn't be too difficult, really) I'm sure many converters would love to use these (perfect for pickups and other RWD vehicles, usable reasonably easily with a FWD vehicle with just a little adjustment of the half-shafts, possible to use with 4WD vehicles also, replacing both front and rear diffs with the back-to-back unit and tie them together electronically). It would also make it fairly easy to convert cars from rwd to 4wd with a little modification of the wheel arches to accomodate the half-shafts.

bjfreeman might want to look at e-traction's portfolio, as they already have bus fleets running using their wheelmotors (Their SM500 and SM750 units).


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## gor (Nov 25, 2009)

wheelmotors will newer replace wheel-and-motors - but say in the half of applications they could be just fine
newer say newer ... 
pict- el & hydro wheelmotors apps ... would you think?... but yea, it's works (not for everybody and in all cases of life, but for many - yes, they fit just fine)


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## bjfreeman (Dec 7, 2011)

Anaerin said:


> bjfreeman might want to look at e-traction's portfolio, as they already have bus fleets running using their wheelmotors (Their SM500 and SM750 units).


have you noticed the wheel is not a standard but is the equivalent of three tires together.
though Ok for back traction does not lend itself to front traction.
However they also only limit their motor which is 2feet longer than mine and is 96KW. Mine is 200KW.


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## bjfreeman (Dec 7, 2011)

gor said:


> check hubmotors on the big industrial staff
> they can be also everywhere, where hydraulic wheelmotors used


how does that fit into the specs I specified.


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## bjfreeman (Dec 7, 2011)

gor said:


> wheelmotors will newer replace wheel-and-motors - but say in the half of applications they could be just fine
> newer say newer ...
> pict- el & hydro wheelmotors apps ... would you think?... but yea, it's works (not for everybody and in all cases of life, but for many - yes, they fit just fine)


so how would I integrate that into a Bus


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## gor (Nov 25, 2009)

bjfreeman said:


> how does that fit into the specs I specified.


i don't have a ready solution - that's was only idea where to look to find possible solutions


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## Anaerin (Feb 4, 2009)

bjfreeman said:


> have you noticed the wheel is not a standard but is the equivalent of three tires together.
> though Ok for back traction does not lend itself to front traction.
> However they also only limit their motor which is 2feet longer than mine and is 96KW. Mine is 200KW.


Their SM500, which is the one on the bus, takes a tire that is regular size (albeit lower than standard profile). That the hub itself is wider doesn't make that much difference. I don't know of any buses (bar van conversions, and even then not many) that are front-wheel drive. If they need more power, they generally double the rear axles. They also have an entire fleet of these buses up and running with a variety of power profiles (Hydrogen Fuel-Cell and Diesel-Electric hybrid), which shows they do know what they're doing, and gives an indication that their power values are real-world, rather than theoretical estimates. At the moment, it seems, your 200KW is an estimate. Not meaning to dissuade or disparage your efforts thus far, but I'm afraid I'm going to be in the "disbeliever" camp until I see numbers to back it up. Though that's my usual stance on these kinds of things.


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## bjfreeman (Dec 7, 2011)

Anaerin said:


> At the moment, it seems, your 200KW is an estimate. Not meaning to dissuade or disparage your efforts thus far, but I'm afraid I'm going to be in the "disbeliever" camp until I see numbers to back it up. Though that's my usual stance on these kinds of things.


yup yup those new fangle horseless carriages are just a phase.


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## Anaerin (Feb 4, 2009)

bjfreeman said:


> yup yup those new fangle horseless carriages are just a phase.


Oh, I believe it probably can be done. But thus far we've only seen one picture of a motor that may, or may not, even work at this point. If you're making claims, as always, the burden of proof is on you. I could claim I have a brand new AC motor that's the size of a condensed soup can and produces 20,000,000 ft-lbs of torque and spins at up to 100kRPM on 7.3vAC, while using only 20mA. But I'd have to prove it.


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## bjfreeman (Dec 7, 2011)

You do!!!!!!! can I buy one
I thinks you have gotten the wrong Idea.
I am not trying to prove anything. I do my proving with the product.
I have worked on this for over a decade.
I guess I was looking for some of similar interest to be excited.
Like gee that is nice, have you thought to this or this is something I see you may consider.

You have made you point, and I am sad that is how this forum views new stuff.


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

bjfreeman said:


> You have made you point, and I am sad that is how this forum views new stuff.


That was just one opinion  Not representative of the entire forum. But usually newbies come on here asking for help or trying to prove something. Even I was confused about your intent.


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## bjfreeman (Dec 7, 2011)

I went back to the first post to see if I posted my focus. I feel I did.
That might be my fault.
This is a passion of mine. The final focus is to have a hydrogen fuel source to power Vehicles the size of Grey hound busses.
I believe Hydrogen is the way of the future. I won't get into the political views.
my first iteration was using a single motor driving gearbox.
Then moving from Optima to Lithium.
I built my own 5K PEM fuel cell. more to power my House needs.
but I digress.
I decided to jump from single motor to motor per wheel.
I work with a company that knows tractiion motors. they manufacture and repair them. They built two motors that I n the process of physically interface to the Rear end.
The suspension of the bus is known as torsion bars instead of Airbags.
However most that use this setup will have air bags. So the Guys are building two sets of "rear ends" 
Since I like to design in a way to cover as many contention as possible, a long grade at 15 degrees at 120 F. it my test for heat.
For Cold I use Jan at 8,000 ft which gets down to 20 F.
Usually some one tries to design for the most cost effective. I don't.
the eventual design is four wheel system, but that is targeted for 2015.
2012 we will work on getting the two back motors working and packaged.
btw my target customers are Fulltimers like myself. I have commitments from a few after they see it working.
with two back motors will have 300 HP which is more than most buses that are electric.


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## bjfreeman (Dec 7, 2011)

Anaerin said:


> Their SM500, which is the one on the bus, takes a tire that is regular size (albeit lower than standard profile). That the hub itself is wider doesn't make that much difference..


since I am going to use the same electrics on all four wheels and want to interface to the same 22.5 tires and rims this will not work.




Anaerin said:


> I don't know of any buses (bar van conversions, and even then not many) that are front-wheel drive. If they need more power, they generally double the rear axles.


Not front wheel but four wheel with the ability to use any one to "limp" along. I don't expect the limping to be a common situation it is more like a spare tire.
Most bus conversion have a 500-600 Hp to provide passing at highway speeds on an incline. the Crusing is about 150HP.

so why not have it spread of 4 wheels and gain Skid control.

I am not focusing on cars but Bus Conversions.




Anaerin said:


> They also have an entire fleet of these buses up and running with a variety of power profiles (Hydrogen Fuel-Cell and Diesel-Electric hybrid), which shows they do know what they're doing, and gives an indication that their power values are real-world, rather than theoretical estimates. At the moment, it seems, your 200KW is an estimate. Not meaning to dissuade or disparage your efforts thus far, but I'm afraid I'm going to be in the "disbeliever" camp until I see numbers to back it up. Though that's my usual stance on these kinds of things.


Actually it was from the fleets, like the Ballard buses in Whisler, that I got a lot of my data when I started about 2000. These bus fleets though do not operate the way fulltimers in bus conversions do.
the 200KW is peak the averate 150KW.
Since I paid to have the motors built I want something that I would not have to redo. if after testing with four wheels that that is to high, I can have the rating reduce, which is a lot easier than having the rating increased.

Not asking you to believe maybe put it in the frame of for this discussion what is you input.


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