# [EVDL] $10K 100 Mile EV



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Eric,

Too easy, post-apocalyptic means no laws, no regulations no police no
inspections.
Now try that today and watch your humanitarian effort wither away as
would the thirsty people.

The growing older and more cynical,

Doc Kennedy



> Eric <[email protected]> wrote:
> > Here's a challenging thought experiment to think outside the box.
> >
> > Scenario: The year is 2050, you're in a post-apocalyptic wasteland
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

The analogy is palpable. Funny so many people claim to love EVs yet they 
can't step up when challenged. Unless of course they think the challenge 
is stupid. If so, then they should call it.

Otherwise, step up and quench the thirst. Think outside the box, or is 
that just not possible for the older cynical types? 

Eric


On 9/24/2010 7:18 AM, Doc Kennedy wrote:
> Eric,
>
> Too easy, post-apocalyptic means no laws, no regulations no police no
> inspections.
> Now try that today and watch your humanitarian effort wither away as
> would the thirsty people.
>
> The growing older and more cynical,
>
> Doc Kennedy
>
>


> Eric<[email protected]> wrote:
> >
> >> Here's a challenging thought experiment to think outside the box.
> >>
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Did this list just morph into one of those telnet MMORG's ?

That is a little un-realistic, you mean of the potentially hundreds of
thousands of vehicles in the state of Nevada none of them would be within
walking distance in 2050 ? did we get nuked ? did every piece of steel get
melted down into tanks when we fought the Chinese ?

This miracle store that exists in post apocalyptic Las Vegas, does it have
the facilities to manufacture fiberglass or carbon fiber ? what about smelt
magnesium or aluminum alloys ?

Heck, I think what I'll do is hop on down the the local bamboo farm which
sprang up in 2034 to satisfy the need for local sustainable building
materials. I could perhaps fashion a chassis and battery box from that ?

In all seriousness Eric, a lot of people on this list probably have thought
about making their own Ev from scratch, coming to the conclusion it is
cheaper to use an existing platform ... like I dunno a TRUCK like the one
mentioned by Lee.
Trucks are built to carry the weight, and if you beef them up some more they
will carry enough lead for a 100mi trip.
They are readily available, and unless some freak occurrence (peak oil ?
wouldn't that give us a surplus of trucks to convert ?) between now and 2050
makes them all but disappear that's probably what a post-apocalyptic Ev
would look like.
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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Hang on a minute ... you have to travel 100 miles on the cheapest batteries
you can find AND you have to haul enough water to quench the thirst of a
town ? ... for under $10k ? or will the EV be used to transport pieces of a
pipeline ?

www.facepalm.org
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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Humans require about 4-6L of water a day, depending on circumstances
(weather). You've said it's extreme, so let's call it 10L. That's 10kg
of water, or 22 pounds of water per person, per day. So you'd need to
build a tanker truck. Knowing that chop shops break up cars because
they're more valuable as parts than as a whole, there's little chance of
building a tanker from the ground up at retail part prices AND in
addition making it an EV for under $10k.

So either we must be assuming a free donor vehicle/non-working shell,
and/or not concerned about the weight of the water/number of people to
save/number of days, as well as assuming a 0-day build time and zero
labor cost, and already full battery pack.

GIVEN THOSE ASSUMPTIONS, a recumbent eBike as used by Oliver and
Catherine Bock will easily meet your requirements of hauling this
imaginary zero mass/zero volume water for infinite people, moving you
the 100 miles in well under a 24-hour time period and be lightweight
enough that a solar panel as a shade will actually give a benefit.
TheGreenRiders.org easily did 50-80 miles per 8-10 hour day and Oliver
turned 56 at my house.

You probably wouldn't even need that 0-day build time if you were
experienced in putting together an eBike... Oliver said it was a
weekend/8-hour project, leaving 16 hours for travel time.

Or, if you're not looking for a vehicle to move PEOPLE, just water, then
using the broadest definition of vehicle (a device or structure for
transporting persons or things) you take a pipeline as your donor
vehicle to move the water and cheap electric pumps along the way to keep
it moving to satisfy your electric component of your vehicle
requirement. No donor vehicle? Cost of piping above $10k? Buy a bunch
of straws, tape 'em together and trickle it there (again, labor is free,
and we've zero build time, no?) Benefit with this method is you've
solved the problem in perpetuity, as long as YOUR supply of water
doesn't run out.

What is this thing you call a box? I don't see how it helps or applies
to problem solving.

[email protected]
-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On
Behalf Of Eric
Sent: Friday, September 24, 2010 1:21 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: [EVDL] $10K 100 Mile EV

Here's a challenging thought experiment to think outside the box.

Scenario: The year is 2050, you're in a post-apocalyptic wasteland 
formerly known as Las Vegas. You must get 100 miles to the next town to 
save the lives of everyone in that town who's in danger of dying of 
dehydration. They have 24hours to live in the blistering desert heat, 
and you must bring them life saving water. The ONLY way to travel is by 
an EV that you build yourself. Money still exists (somehow) and you only

have $10K in your pocket with no hope of outside financial help. No 
vehicles exist in the town you are in., but there is a store that 
carries EVERY part to build an EV from scratch.

Could you build an EV with a 100 mile range with $10K?


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

"EVERY part to build an EV from scratch"

Including the frame, body, axles, etc? There's more to a vehicle than just
the powertrain. When I did a frameoff restoration/rebuild of one of my
vehicles a couple years ago, I couldn't believe the endless list of little
details and components.

We'll weave a hemp body, hardened with some rosin from the EV store, and use
the bamboo from Dave's post for the frame and axles.

Or maybe buy EVERY part from the store to build something that will haul
water 100 miles.

I hope that store sells 5 ton axles and parts to make a tanker trailer.
With brakes.

Brett



> Eric <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> > *No vehicles exist in the town you are in* but there is a store that
> > carries EVERY part to build an EV from scratch.
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

I suppose the cheapest way to transport a large quantity of water would 
be to build a huge water tank in the form of a cylinder. Set it on its 
side, and roll it. A round steel tank on a concrete road should have 
pretty low rolling resistance. Tow or push it with whatever sort of 
vehicle you can throw together. 

-- 
Lee A. Hart | Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave N | Forget the perfect offering
Sartell MN 56377	| There is a crack in everything
leeahart earthlink.net	| That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

How big is the town? Most towns 100 miles away from Vegas are pretty
small. A few cases of water in the back of a pickup truck will do the
trick. Worst case, most 16' utility flatbed trailers (car hauler) will
handle 7000 lbs (axle and bearing rating). So, with better tires, and to
use round numbers, you could put 1000 gallons on one, either in barrels,
bottled water, or whatever. Then you just need to tow it. So, assume
10,000 of material and water, add 5000-7000 lbs for whatever the
propulsion "vehicle" is, assume 16,000 lbs.

...I saw a pic a while back of a dodge minivan front grafted on to the front
of a utility trailer. Strange brew.

This is a great question though.

I *am* interested in hearing what basic recipe of batteries, controller and
motor will move this weight, 100 miles.

In a real situation, I'd McGyver whatever had wheels on it and get the folks
some drink.

Brett (ice, ev, pedals, whatever)



> Eric <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> > Here's a challenging thought experiment to think outside the box.
> >
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Keep in mind if you can build it in 10hrs and leave 14hrs for build time it
only has to move at about 8-10mph ....
crazy problem and restrictions, but yeah its fun.
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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

you haven't specified how much water needs to be carried, and if it indeed
needs to be carried.
Should we spend all the time not on the vehicle but a weather control device
to make it rain 100 miles away ?
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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Eric, it could be done. Period, you can build an EV now, to "post
apocalyptic specifications" that will do more than 100miles

A truck frame (or if you're going to be anal, a truck type frame we built
ourselves in under 5hrs) and about 2,000lbs of lead
could probably be thrown together for under 6k, and everything else with the
remaining money.

Here are a couple of EVs on this page:
http://www.grassrootsev.com/100club.htm
that illustrate it is possible. If all the vehicle was, was a frame,
batteries and motor, you'll do 100miles if you want.

Now, do you want to get a bit more specific about the water or are you just
baiting for fun ?
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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Can anyone think outside the BOX? Concentrate on the car...  The 
amount of water is irrelevant. Say you have a magic bottle of Jesus 
water... There's plenty for millions of people in 1 water bottle. Let's 
say you win a $10K more hypothetical dollars for winning the challenge.

Can you build an EV with a 100 mile range from the ground up with $10K?

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Just get an electric forklift and an abandoned tanker trailer. Fill the
tanker with water, lift the 5th wheel end with the forklift and travel at
5mph or so. Pick up a bunch of extra batteries and charge them before the
trip. This is an oversimplified answer, and maybe a wheel set (truck) would
be needed at the 5th wheel end, a way to interconnect the extra batteries
(or swap them), but the idea is to keep it simple so that you can spend most
of your time moving rather than buiding an ev.



-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf
Of Dave Hymers
Sent: 24 September, 2010 1:43 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] $10K 100 Mile EV

Hang on a minute ... you have to travel 100 miles on the cheapest batteries
you can find AND you have to haul enough water to quench the thirst of a
town ? ... for under $10k ? or will the EV be used to transport pieces of a
pipeline ?

www.facepalm.org
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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Magic water bottle... Sure, build a small autonumous flying EV, glider
style, that carries only the magic water bottle and enough lithium to
make the journey.





> Eric <[email protected]> wrote:
> > Can anyone think outside the BOX? Concentrate on the car...  The
> > amount of water is irrelevant. Say you have a magic bottle of Jesus
> > water... There's plenty for millions of people in 1 water bottle. Let's
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Bottom line: if its a single seater ultra light trike, built with a lithium
pack, then yes possibly you could
build an EV from the ground up for under 10k and perhaps squeeze 100miles
from it.

I spent quite a bit of time deciding whether I wanted to build a trike with
a lead pack that might
have got me about 60 miles and I priced it in at around 7-8k. BUT I can't
weld, so sub contracting that work would probably over shoot that.

Today its more or less a needless exercise for someone with only $10k to
attempt to build a 100mi
machine from absolutely nothing. That person would need to work in an
industry with access
to a few tools you couldn't factor into that budget and be much more
talented than me.

I say needless, as you can simply buy a truck and clone Red Beastie.
/thread.
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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Eric wrote:
> 
> > Forget how much water you need... Concentrate on building the car.
> 
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Yes, a railgun that will fire ice laden slugs 100 miles into a concrete slab
that the other townsfolk have built !
brilliant.
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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Townspeople did not die due to lack of water ;-). Water delivered via rapid "infusion". Solves additional problem of leading to water AND can make them "drink". Problem said get water to town via electric vehicle and think outside the box...

Concrete slabs build walls, walls build boxes... Must get people outside the box!

Tear down the walls (that build the boxes, full of ticky tacky )

Post apocalyptic times, a railgun might prove useful...


[email protected]


----- Original Message -----
From: [email protected] <[email protected]>
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <[email protected]>
Sent: Fri Sep 24 18:50:58 2010
Subject: Re: [EVDL] $10K 100 Mile EV

Yes, a railgun that will fire ice laden slugs 100 miles into a concrete slab
that the other townsfolk have built !
brilliant.
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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Shucks, I try to ignore Eric, but all of you arent thinking out side of his
box, Surprise I noticed a railroad track goes from Las Vegas to the town,
so I leased a railroad tank car for $1. and found a 8 inch motor at the
"Junque" exchange, and 250 GC batteries connected in banks and sitting them
on the flat surface under the tank. I welded up a support to chain drive the
RR tank car axle direct, and pressurized the brake line with a bicycle tire
pump, using a manual clip the bank to the motor, and when it starts slowing
down switch to the next bank away we went down the track at 25 mph to the
town with 10,000 gallons of water. PS today my "BOX" is cylindrical, about
12 feet in diamete and 65 feet long...
Dennis Miles



> Lee Hart <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> > On 9/24/2010 6:20 PM, Eric wrote:
> > > Can anyone think outside the BOX? Concentrate on the car...  The
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> On 24 Sep 2010 at 16:20, Eric wrote:
> 
> > Can you build an EV with a 100 mile range from the ground up with $10K?
> >
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Heck Eric, you are the one in the box.
Here it is 2010, Start with a readilly available chevy S-10,
preferably, about ten years old with good tires, In Central Florida near
Disney World they sell for $900 running. Sell the running motor for $500,
the fuel tank and pump for $300, the catalytic converter for $100 as pure
scrap, the exhaust pipe and muffler as aluminumized steel for $5.00, the
Radiator for $25, Buy the kit of 8 inch motor, and mount, transmission
adapter, controller and wires, and connectors and crimper,And that whole kit
is $7,500 (at Greenshed) Batteries.as a set of two banks at 50 miles each of
wet lead acid GC batteries for $2,500 (at Sam's Club) so there is the $10K
EV, just do it yourself! And it fits right in the box. If you don't like our
box then ride a unicycle and we can all have a good laugh.(;<))

Regards,
Dennis Lee Miles (Director) E.V.T.I. inc.
*www.E-V-T-I-Inc.COM *(Adviser)* EVTI-EVA Education Chapter*
Phone (863) 944 - 9913
It=92s estimated that the existing U.S. electrical grid has sufficient
capacity
to fully fuel three-quarters of the nation=92s 217 million passenger
vehicles.
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D


> Eric <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> > Here's a challenging thought experiment to think outside the box.
> >
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Hi David, Eric and All,

Now Eric has simplified his goal it's rather
easy.

A stock golf cart with the batteries wired
parallel into 18-24vdc pack with high pressure car tires.
Clubcar did it with their stock set up though I bet with
street tires.

A bicycle with E motor pulling 24vdc of golf
cart batts in a trailer.

A MC with 8 60lb batts.

A rolling truck or VW Bug frame with 72v of GC
batts.

Secret is keeping it light, speeds 15-25 mph
to keep air drag down and high pressure in the tires. All
well under $10k. With simple aero bodies they could do it at
40-50 mph except the bicycle.

I have a CG transaxle with a moped front end,
VW Rabbit rear tires that with 8 GC batts would do it I
drive most every day with 4 used 12v batts cost me $150 to
build. I'm slowly building an Aero cabin MC that can do it
at 50-60mph for about $800 in parts, mostly used of course.

As long as building from scratch using common
used stuff, it's really easy to do cheap.

Jerry Dycus


----- Original Message Follows -----
From: "EVDL Administrator" <[email protected]>
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] $10K 100 Mile EV
Date: Fri, 24 Sep 2010 21:44:57 -0400



> >On 24 Sep 2010 at 16:20, Eric wrote:
> >
> >> Can you build an EV with a 100 mile range from the ground
> >> up with $10K?
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

How about you drive till the flooded batteries are so dead you can
drink the water from them .. a wagon train of batteries each one on a
skate board all hooked together pulled by a starter motor powered by
a wheel hooked to a fly wheel ( fly wheel from same car as starter
motor) with inflation that's what you'll get for your 10k . Now how
about a writer that writes something before the end of 2010 that
really helps promote EV's ,, ya I know there none out there , that can
do that , would take some out of the box thinker to get one to do it
. How would he do this , ? What would he say Have you ever noticed
how bad most writers are at getting the facts straight when it comes
to EV.s . When I think about it , I don't think I've ever seen
anything wrote by a non EVer about EV's that didn't have some miss
information.

short range Ev's do poorly on long trips
long range EV;s can't even do short trips with out being plugged in
from time to time .
Its a fact , filling a EV with gas is more dangers than charging the
battery in a gas car .

My old Mazda 2000 lawn truck with 40 golf cart batteries would do 100
miles ,, most of the time it just charged the e mower 10 time a day
and drove 30 miles . You can have it for 10K
Steve Clunn

--
Tomorrows Ride TODAY !
Visit our shop web page at: www.Greenshedconversions.com

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

As a mostly-lurker on this list, I have to pipe up and say that it has
been fascinating watching people respond to this--it's been a real study
in watching people read a "spec". 

First of all, most (but not all) made the assumption that a significant
amount of water had to be taken to the town. But the spec didn't
actually say that *anyone* was in danger of dying of dehydration! To
wit:

"You must get 100 miles to the next town to save the lives of everyone
in that town who's in danger of dying of dehydration."

Second, many ran afoul of the constraint "no vehicles exist in the town
you are in". True, "vehicle" was not defined so it wasn't clear to me if
there was a non-running chassis I could scavenge or not. 

Third, many (seemed) to forget the "24 hour rule" that covered not only
the building of the vehicle but of getting the water to the town (if you
made the assumption that at least one person needed some water). 

It was also not clear just what constituted a "part" that existed in
this hypothetical EV store. Would it have, for instance, a steerable,
rolling chassis with operable brakes that I could buy? Or would I have
to start with tube steel and fab a chassis, steering, etc. from scratch?
Hardly anyone sought to clarify that point and just started "building". 

As a data point, the fastest street-legal auto conversion I've heard
about (that I recall) is the one Otmar did in a weekend. Based on
various TV programs like Junkyard Wars, I'd have to say unless we're
talking about a bike with ready-to-assemble EV parts, I doubt anyone
could build an EV and cover the 100 miles in 24 hours. I'm willing to be
wrong about this, however.

But it has been fun reading the responses!

--Steve




> Eric wrote:
> > Leslie, You're in charge of WASP (Water Access Security Patrol), and
> > maintaining the "Stinging" electric fence to keep the bad guys out.
> >
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Hi Steve, Good points... I noticed that people just assumed there were 
other vehicles to scavenge from. But I specifically stated that No 
vehicles exist in the town. Yet plenty of people stated things about 
golf carts, fork lifts, rail cars, buses, and converting other 
"vehicles" that do not exist in this hypothetical town. The thought 
experiment is designed to provoke thought which should have forced 
people to think differently in building the vehicle. It had a rather 
interesting effect though. People started questioning the "rules" and 
"definitions" of the word vehicle itself. I attribute this to and blame 
lawyers... 

Perhaps we should reconstruct the scenario to transport 1 human being 
(you) to the town.

It would have been simpler to propose that YOU are the human in the 
middle of a "barren" desert with $10K in your pocket. The only 
civilization near you is an EV parts store with every conceivable "part" 
for every vehicle ever made (it's a big store). We'll also assume, since 
I didn't mention this before, that you also have a garage and all the 
tools you would ever need to build this vehicle. (which surprisingly no 
one mentioned before)

The challenge would be for "YOU" to get "YOU" out of the barren desert 
and to the safety of a town 100 miles away.

To clarify:
1. Cargo:1 human driver (you)
2. No other vehicles exist (none, nada, zero)
3. You have 1 bottle of water (24 hours: survival time in 120 degree 
desert heat)

I know this completely changes (reverses) the dynamics of the scenario 
to an EV built to carry 1 human driver and 1 bottle of water to the 
safety of a town 100 miles away within 24 hours.

Now build the "vehicle"... 

Regards,
Eric


On 9/25/2010 10:06 AM, Steve Peterson wrote:
> As a mostly-lurker on this list, I have to pipe up and say that it has
> been fascinating watching people respond to this--it's been a real study
> in watching people read a "spec".
>
> First of all, most (but not all) made the assumption that a significant
> amount of water had to be taken to the town. But the spec didn't
> actually say that *anyone* was in danger of dying of dehydration! To
> wit:
>
> "You must get 100 miles to the next town to save the lives of everyone
> in that town who's in danger of dying of dehydration."
>
> Second, many ran afoul of the constraint "no vehicles exist in the town
> you are in". True, "vehicle" was not defined so it wasn't clear to me if
> there was a non-running chassis I could scavenge or not.
>
> Third, many (seemed) to forget the "24 hour rule" that covered not only
> the building of the vehicle but of getting the water to the town (if you
> made the assumption that at least one person needed some water).
>
> It was also not clear just what constituted a "part" that existed in
> this hypothetical EV store. Would it have, for instance, a steerable,
> rolling chassis with operable brakes that I could buy? Or would I have
> to start with tube steel and fab a chassis, steering, etc. from scratch?
> Hardly anyone sought to clarify that point and just started "building".
>
> As a data point, the fastest street-legal auto conversion I've heard
> about (that I recall) is the one Otmar did in a weekend. Based on
> various TV programs like Junkyard Wars, I'd have to say unless we're
> talking about a bike with ready-to-assemble EV parts, I doubt anyone
> could build an EV and cover the 100 miles in 24 hours. I'm willing to be
> wrong about this, however.
>
> But it has been fun reading the responses!
>
> --Steve
>
>
>


> Eric wrote:
> >
> >> Leslie, You're in charge of WASP (Water Access Security Patrol), and
> >> maintaining the "Stinging" electric fence to keep the bad guys out.
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Nope,
Does not change my proposal to weld a bicycle frame together,
assemble it with typical e-Bike parts, which means:
put in some hub motors, 100Ah pack and controller and go,
preferably through the night so don't forget the *electric*
headlights ;-) 

Cor van de Water
Director HW & Systems Architecture Group
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
Email: [email protected] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [email protected]
Tel: +1 408 383 7626 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Tel: +91 (040)23117400 x203 XoIP: +31877841130

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On
Behalf Of Eric
Sent: Saturday, September 25, 2010 11:16 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [EVDL] $10K 100 Mile EV

Hi Steve, Good points... I noticed that people just assumed there were
other vehicles to scavenge from. But I specifically stated that No
vehicles exist in the town. Yet plenty of people stated things about
golf carts, fork lifts, rail cars, buses, and converting other
"vehicles" that do not exist in this hypothetical town. The thought
experiment is designed to provoke thought which should have forced
people to think differently in building the vehicle. It had a rather
interesting effect though. People started questioning the "rules" and
"definitions" of the word vehicle itself. I attribute this to and blame
lawyers... 

Perhaps we should reconstruct the scenario to transport 1 human being
(you) to the town.

It would have been simpler to propose that YOU are the human in the
middle of a "barren" desert with $10K in your pocket. The only
civilization near you is an EV parts store with every conceivable "part"

for every vehicle ever made (it's a big store). We'll also assume, since
I didn't mention this before, that you also have a garage and all the
tools you would ever need to build this vehicle. (which surprisingly no
one mentioned before)

The challenge would be for "YOU" to get "YOU" out of the barren desert
and to the safety of a town 100 miles away.

To clarify:
1. Cargo:1 human driver (you)
2. No other vehicles exist (none, nada, zero) 3. You have 1 bottle of
water (24 hours: survival time in 120 degree desert heat)

I know this completely changes (reverses) the dynamics of the scenario
to an EV built to carry 1 human driver and 1 bottle of water to the
safety of a town 100 miles away within 24 hours.

Now build the "vehicle"... 

Regards,
Eric


On 9/25/2010 10:06 AM, Steve Peterson wrote:
> As a mostly-lurker on this list, I have to pipe up and say that it has

> been fascinating watching people respond to this--it's been a real 
> study in watching people read a "spec".
>
> First of all, most (but not all) made the assumption that a 
> significant amount of water had to be taken to the town. But the spec 
> didn't actually say that *anyone* was in danger of dying of 
> dehydration! To
> wit:
>
> "You must get 100 miles to the next town to save the lives of everyone

> in that town who's in danger of dying of dehydration."
>
> Second, many ran afoul of the constraint "no vehicles exist in the 
> town you are in". True, "vehicle" was not defined so it wasn't clear 
> to me if there was a non-running chassis I could scavenge or not.
>
> Third, many (seemed) to forget the "24 hour rule" that covered not 
> only the building of the vehicle but of getting the water to the town 
> (if you made the assumption that at least one person needed some
water).
>
> It was also not clear just what constituted a "part" that existed in 
> this hypothetical EV store. Would it have, for instance, a steerable, 
> rolling chassis with operable brakes that I could buy? Or would I have

> to start with tube steel and fab a chassis, steering, etc. from
scratch?
> Hardly anyone sought to clarify that point and just started
"building".
>
> As a data point, the fastest street-legal auto conversion I've heard 
> about (that I recall) is the one Otmar did in a weekend. Based on 
> various TV programs like Junkyard Wars, I'd have to say unless we're 
> talking about a bike with ready-to-assemble EV parts, I doubt anyone 
> could build an EV and cover the 100 miles in 24 hours. I'm willing to 
> be wrong about this, however.
>
> But it has been fun reading the responses!
>
> --Steve
>
>
>


> Eric wrote:
> >
> >> Leslie, You're in charge of WASP (Water Access Security Patrol), and
> >> maintaining the "Stinging" electric fence to keep the bad guys out.
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Ok, that's a start...  That would probably get the job done. But isn't 
an e-bike partially human powered?

Path of least resistance strikes again...  Anyone else?

Regards,
Eric

On 9/25/2010 11:07 AM, Cor van de Water wrote:
> Nope,
> Does not change my proposal to weld a bicycle frame together,
> assemble it with typical e-Bike parts, which means:
> put in some hub motors, 100Ah pack and controller and go,
> preferably through the night so don't forget the *electric*
> headlights ;-)
>
> Cor van de Water
> Director HW& Systems Architecture Group
> Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
> Email: [email protected] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
> Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [email protected]
> Tel: +1 408 383 7626 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
> Tel: +91 (040)23117400 x203 XoIP: +31877841130
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On
> Behalf Of Eric
> Sent: Saturday, September 25, 2010 11:16 PM
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] $10K 100 Mile EV
>
> Hi Steve, Good points... I noticed that people just assumed there were
> other vehicles to scavenge from. But I specifically stated that No
> vehicles exist in the town. Yet plenty of people stated things about
> golf carts, fork lifts, rail cars, buses, and converting other
> "vehicles" that do not exist in this hypothetical town. The thought
> experiment is designed to provoke thought which should have forced
> people to think differently in building the vehicle. It had a rather
> interesting effect though. People started questioning the "rules" and
> "definitions" of the word vehicle itself. I attribute this to and blame
> lawyers... 
>
> Perhaps we should reconstruct the scenario to transport 1 human being
> (you) to the town.
>
> It would have been simpler to propose that YOU are the human in the
> middle of a "barren" desert with $10K in your pocket. The only
> civilization near you is an EV parts store with every conceivable "part"
>
> for every vehicle ever made (it's a big store). We'll also assume, since
> I didn't mention this before, that you also have a garage and all the
> tools you would ever need to build this vehicle. (which surprisingly no
> one mentioned before)
>
> The challenge would be for "YOU" to get "YOU" out of the barren desert
> and to the safety of a town 100 miles away.
>
> To clarify:
> 1. Cargo:1 human driver (you)
> 2. No other vehicles exist (none, nada, zero) 3. You have 1 bottle of
> water (24 hours: survival time in 120 degree desert heat)
>
> I know this completely changes (reverses) the dynamics of the scenario
> to an EV built to carry 1 human driver and 1 bottle of water to the
> safety of a town 100 miles away within 24 hours.
>
> Now build the "vehicle"... 
>
> Regards,
> Eric
>
>
> On 9/25/2010 10:06 AM, Steve Peterson wrote:
> 
>> As a mostly-lurker on this list, I have to pipe up and say that it has
>> 
> 
>> been fascinating watching people respond to this--it's been a real
>> study in watching people read a "spec".
>>
>> First of all, most (but not all) made the assumption that a
>> significant amount of water had to be taken to the town. But the spec
>> didn't actually say that *anyone* was in danger of dying of
>> dehydration! To
>> wit:
>>
>> "You must get 100 miles to the next town to save the lives of everyone
>> 
> 
>> in that town who's in danger of dying of dehydration."
>>
>> Second, many ran afoul of the constraint "no vehicles exist in the
>> town you are in". True, "vehicle" was not defined so it wasn't clear
>> to me if there was a non-running chassis I could scavenge or not.
>>
>> Third, many (seemed) to forget the "24 hour rule" that covered not
>> only the building of the vehicle but of getting the water to the town
>> (if you made the assumption that at least one person needed some
>> 
> water).
> 
>> It was also not clear just what constituted a "part" that existed in
>> this hypothetical EV store. Would it have, for instance, a steerable,
>> rolling chassis with operable brakes that I could buy? Or would I have
>> 
> 
>> to start with tube steel and fab a chassis, steering, etc. from
>> 
> scratch?
> 
>> Hardly anyone sought to clarify that point and just started
>> 
> "building".
> 
>> As a data point, the fastest street-legal auto conversion I've heard
>> about (that I recall) is the one Otmar did in a weekend. Based on
>> various TV programs like Junkyard Wars, I'd have to say unless we're
>> talking about a bike with ready-to-assemble EV parts, I doubt anyone
>> could build an EV and cover the 100 miles in 24 hours. I'm willing to
>> be wrong about this, however.
>>
>> But it has been fun reading the responses!
>>
>> --Steve
>>
>>
>>


> Eric wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >>> Leslie, You're in charge of WASP (Water Access Security Patrol), and
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

The solutions you get are heavily dependent on how you state the 
problem. The original statement was vague enough to encourage all sorts 
of "legalistic" thinking.

It didn't help that your scenario wasn't very realistic. It encouraged 
us to imagine what you "really" meant. What sorts of parts would be in 
that store in 2050, and what would $10k buy? It's also hard to imagine a 
town with *no* vehicles of any kind, either running or broken.



> Eric wrote:
> > Perhaps we should reconstruct the scenario to transport 1 human being
> > (you) to the town.
> > 1. Cargo: 1 human driver (you)
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Eric wrote:
> 
> > To clarify:
> > 1. Cargo:1 human driver (you)
> ...


----------

