# toasted an 8" ADC motor help



## zapyourrideguy (Oct 25, 2012)

Everything was going great with my new lithium upgrade.
144v calb 180's 92 Honda Civic, 8" ADC motor with maybe 15 to 20 k miles on it. Zilla 1k I was not driving it particularly hard and smelled burning electrical smell. At first I thought is was from another source because it quickly went away. The smell came back miles later and then I pulled over to see what it could be. Everything seemed cool including motor. It quickly lost power when I tried it again (dumb) It was after dark and I was without a flashlight. Had I looked at the brushes I might of saved some damage.

I pulled the motor a pair of brushes fell out having separated from their leads and the brush holder ring had broken off, and the opposite pair are welded to the holder. the other opposing pair look ok.

My question:
If I get a new brush holder and brushes could I repair this motor? or is this really a job for a motor repair shop? If so, are there any motor repair shops in the Sacramento or even SF bay area that has experience with these motors? 
I had toasted another motor much earlier. (I chalked it up to the fact that when I bought the car it had been abused battery-wise) and the motor servicing that I got didn't last long. I bought my current motor new and I have several times used a stone to clean the comms. I am not a hot-rodder, but maybe this motor is not a good match for the zilla 1k? 

I did find that my motor voltage limit was not set to 170 like it should have, could this have led to the early destruction?

Any advice and any well-derserved shaming is welcome.
I am feeling like replacing with an AC motor but ....


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

Wierd things happen with DC motors when you change something completely unrelated like a controller or battery type.
My friends Suzuki Carry toasted its motor when he went from a Curtis 400A to a Soliton Junior.


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

zapyourrideguy said:


> 144v calb 180's 92 Honda Civic, 8" ADC motor with maybe 15 to 20 k miles on it. Zilla 1k
> My question:
> If I get a new brush holder and brushes could I repair this motor? or is this really a job for a motor repair shop? If so, are there any motor repair shops in the Sacramento or even SF bay area that has experience with these motors?
> I had toasted another motor much earlier. (I chalked it up to the fact that when I bought the car it had been abused battery-wise) and the motor servicing that I got didn't last long. I bought my current motor new and I have several times used a stone to clean the comms. I am not a hot-rodder, but maybe this motor is not a good match for the zilla 1k?
> ...


So if you have a 144V battery, a 170V motor limit does not matter. Motor voltage is never higher than battery.

Second: Honda. I hear they have engines which rotate reverse to all other cars. Did you have the advance changed on your motor? Running with wrong direction advance will kill the brushes.

Also, do you know what your typical motor RPM and current draw was for your driving style. I assume you have a standard transmission. Running in the wrong gear can toast the brushes.

Before replacing the motor, get a repair estimate. It may be salvageable, but needs professional attention.

And there is seldom a need for stoning the comm after the motor is in service. You may have contributed to the problem by doing that.

Sorry for your loss. 

major

And Rip,

Correctly applied and used DC motors usually provide excellent service. Yes, you can kill them. But you can also kill AC motors, if those controllers don't blow first


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## zapyourrideguy (Oct 25, 2012)

major said:


> So if you have a 144V battery, a 170V motor limit does not matter. Motor voltage is never higher than battery.
> 
> Second: Honda. I hear they have engines which rotate reverse to all other cars. Did you have the advance changed on your motor? Running with wrong direction advance will kill the brushes.
> 
> ...


On brush timing when I ordered the motor (I believe KTA services) I requested a Honda compatible timing and I believe that I later confirmed that it was correct. Although it would explain the relatively rapid death of this motor. 

Gear-wise I generally stay in 2nd gear, but I had been using 3rd above 30 mph but never stepping on it unless above 50mph.
I stoned the comm because it looked black and/or darker in areas. Probably the beginning of the end?
Thanks for your input Should any decent motor shop be able to handle this type of motor?


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

Motor repair shops typically belong to EASA (http://www.easa.com/). Or find one that does forklift motors often. It needs a new brush holder assembly, springs and brushes, maybe terminals and cross connectors, and commutator turned and undercut. After all that, maybe a new bearing at the comm end and a balance check. 

Have them stone and shape the new brushes in the correct rotation direction. Verify the advance. Then when you get it break it in running no-load on 12V for many hours until you seat the brushes and lay down a nice film on the comm. 

The other thing which can kill brushes is contamination. Dirt, oil, salt spay. You get any of that? If so, fashion some protection and cool clean air ducts. 

Since you appear to have a sensitive application here, schedule regular inspections so you catch problems before they get expensive. A tachometer and motor ammeter would help you select gearing to keep your motor happy.


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## PZigouras (Jun 5, 2010)

Did you have electric cooling fans on the commutator side? 

A friend of mine burned his 9-inch ADC on a Civic similar to yours after less than 4000 miles. His issue was overheating, but now we think that lack or airflow was the biggest culprit. 

We noticed that, with the built-in fan, the CFM seemed very low until about 4000 RPM. We regularly read commutator temps of over 350 F before his motor failed. Why the temps were so high, we're not quite sure. 

He added two electric fans to his new 9-inch motor before installing it, and now the temps read a lot lower (I forget the exact numbers). I haven't heard from him in a while, but it has been over a year and I think it's still running fine.

It won't hurt to add two muffin fans to the comm side after the motor is repaired. Small fans don't cost much, and will give you additional cooling at low RPMs, and even when the car is completely stopped. They barely draw any power, so it won't affect your range any.


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## zapyourrideguy (Oct 25, 2012)

I have been running a squirrel cage fan for a long time now (ev source) that is mounted right over the comms and blows straight down which should also help prevent stuff from getting in from below. Would it be safe to put a solid band around the end bell with maybe an exhaust port on it like the net gain one? I was wondering whether I would be messing with the airflow of the motor.
Thank you for the advice Major and PZ

rebuild if possible or
impusle 9 or
hpevs ac-51 I am assuming I will still get better performance out of the DC choice but with the AC choice increasing efficiency 10- 15%


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## zapyourrideguy (Oct 25, 2012)

so got a quote of 600.00 to do motor repair plus parts about 300.00. I had motor overtemp light set up but I have never seen it light up.

Are these temp snap switches not always likely to close when I am burning up brushes? or circuit may have failed? I am now trying to determine if I want to replace this with another DC motor. The easiest being the impulse 9. Or go to AC-51 or 76 

Can anybody tell me what the differences might be in terms of drivability? I know the curtis 1239 is very programmable and regen and has CAN connectivity with my Orion BMS. I cannot seem to find continuous power rating for AC-51/1239 it looks like Impluse 9 is 30kw. so around 200 amps continuous. some specs on the AC-51 and Curtis seem to say 500 amps continuous if water cooled - is that right? 72kw continuous??
It seems like if that is true it will be alot harder for me to kill it.

civic 144 v 180ah CALBs


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## dougingraham (Jul 26, 2011)

If you are going AC why the AC-51? The AC-50 is a better wind for an EV with the 20% wider usable RPM band. Less shifting. The 20% higher torque is offset by the 20% narrower usable RPM band. The AC-51 would be a better motor with a controller that could do 180 volts. Both put out about 88HP at peak. Lower torque with wider RPM band probably makes your first gear useful. It does however depend on which motor is a better match to your transmission ratios and final drive. From the numbers I have run it looks like a wider RPM band and operating at a lower gear is preferred from a performance standpoint.

With the Curtis 144v control the AC-7x series are too narrow a torque band to be good in a street car. Will they work? Sure. But you will be shifting a lot more often and the extra weight is unnecessary.

Not sure what caused your failure, but it is interesting that it was only one pair of brushes that showed the severe wear.

Best Wishes!


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## zapyourrideguy (Oct 25, 2012)

Thanks Doug,
I thought the AC-51 meant 144v and the AC-50 would be paired with lower voltage controllers. Did you have any opinion on the comparison of overall drivability between the impulse 9 and AC options?
Thanks


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

zapyourrideguy said:


> so got a quote of 600.00 to do motor repair plus parts about 300.00.....


That does not sound too unreasonable. Maybe about half the price of a new motor and probably near the cost of a good used motor.

The usual click-on temp sensor can in fact be useless in detecting overload (or otherwise) damage to the brushes.

You've done the DC route; AC sounds like it might be the ticket if you and your pocketbook are of that mind


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