# In Wheel Motor ... affordable



## todayican (Jul 31, 2008)

Will these motors be geared?
I would be interested in looking at a 10kw continuous motor for a 17" automotive rim.


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## tirebiter (Sep 9, 2008)

Would you be able to supply only the wound stator ? Also I am not proficient at determining the exact number of turns, wire gauge or pole number. Are you available to help in these areas ?


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## WheelMotor (Sep 16, 2008)

The purpose is to provide the complete motor . The motor is not geared. It is an inside out BLDC motor. The rotor contains the windings which is in this case fixed (to the brake clamp mounting) and the stator (or the outside of the motor) is connected to the rim and turning. They can not be delivered separately because they are made for each other (dimensions poles etc)

Since there is no gearing and no brushes or commutator the motor is very quite.

But the purpose of this thread is (at this stage) to get commercial contacts in order to set up a low volume serial production. At this moment we are developing the motor.

PS don't look to much at my avatar, it is rather "symbolic" and the real thing is totally different.


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

WheelMotor said:


> At this moment we are developing the motor.


Hi WM,

So what you are saying is that you do not have a product. Or prototype? Just an idea?

Good luck,

major


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## WheelMotor (Sep 16, 2008)

major said:


> Hi WM,
> 
> So what you are saying is that you do not have a product. Or prototype? Just an idea?
> 
> ...


 
Thanks Major,

Don't laugh me away ! We have beside the idea, the money, expertise (of normal industrial electric motors) and the tools, and most importantly we are in a country (the factory at least) where we can put a small production up at very competitive prices. I am confident that if I can make an agreement for a production of for example 2 wheels per week (to start) that we can be up and running within 6 months. Retail price should be about 1500$ / wheel (low volume starting price) .


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

WheelMotor said:


> Thanks Major,
> 
> Don't laugh me away ! .


Don't get me wrong, WM. I was serious when I said "Good Luck." But it does seem to me that you think cheap labor will solve technical obstacles. The wheel motor has been a wanted product for about a century now. Many have tried; all have failed to produce a product competitive with the geared central motor approach, except for very small vehicles like bicycles and very large vehicles like earth movers. I hope you have the genius on the payroll that can pull this off.

Regards,

major


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## tirebiter (Sep 9, 2008)

WM,
I do not represent any commercial enterprise that might want to buy your motors but I am very interested in what you describe. Can you supply any more of the details here ? Specifically the average weight of your wheel motors, output power, electrical needs, RPM range, etc. ?


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## WheelMotor (Sep 16, 2008)

Major, it exists already:

http://www.pmlflightlink.com/


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

WheelMotor said:


> Major, it exists already:
> 
> http://www.pmlflightlink.com/


Hi WM,

Yeah, this is a couple of years old. And how many do they have on the road? They gave me a quote of $35,000 each. You're going to do it for $1500? O.K. I'll buy a couple. Just need to verify performance before I write the check.

Still saying Good Luck,

major


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## WheelMotor (Sep 16, 2008)

Please read again the first post of this thread . "I *want* to produce"

So the purpose of this thread is to meet people to set up the business. I am not pretending that I know it all and that it's a peace of a cake. 

However, before we commit substantial money and time to this, we would like to be already in contact with the market. The idea is to let the project grow as a partnership between the producer and the sales promoter.


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

Hey WM,

All the desire, money, business planning, partnerships, open source forums, and so on will be for naught if you don't have a competitive product. And my many years in the motor and EV business tell me that is a big problem for you.

Still say Good Luck,

major


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## WheelMotor (Sep 16, 2008)

major said:


> Hey WM,
> 
> All the desire, money, business planning, partnerships, open source forums, and so on will be for naught if you don't have a competitive product. And my many years in the motor and EV business tell me that is a big problem for you.
> 
> ...


Major,

you are a pessimist . Within a few months I will be back here with a video of a prototype installed in a car. Than we speak again !

In the meanwhile everybody who has a tip for the sales promotion please post here.


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

WheelMotor said:


> Major,
> 
> you are a pessimist . Within a few months I will be back here with a video of a prototype installed in a car.


Hi WM,

I can hardly wait. Good luck.

major


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## samborambo (Aug 27, 2008)

WheelMotor,

The concept of a hub motor with the rotor fixed to or part of the wheel rim and the stator attached to the caliper assembly is something I've been toying with for the past month or so. 

It's an outrunner design but with similar torque / speed characteristics to the Etel torque motor range: http://www.etel.ch/torque_motors (the Etel motors are actually inrunners but you get the idea)

I've started working with FEMM 4.0 to model the motor but I haven't had a lot of time lately to do it. Once I have something presentable, I'll share it here.

My goal is retrofit kits for the existing small passenger fleet - focusing on the most popular and / or efficient car models to begin with. The rotor / stator may remain the same design for many different vehicles, just the mounting arrangement may differ. It makes the most logical sense - there's no point reinventing the wheel (excuse the pun) but if you start replacing axle stubs, disk brakes, etc you end up getting involved in a lot of unnecessary design work. 

It's an excellent concept with a couple of obvious challenges. First is the air gap clearance between the stator and rotor. In most BLDC motors the air gap is kept within the order of 0.5mm to maintain a high flux and therefore keep the torque constant high. With this design, you're relying on the wheel's bearings to enforce the air gap - and we all know how shaky wheel bearings can get over time/miles. The rotor may start rubbing on the stator leading to a quick demise. You could have a large bearing ring between the rotor and stator also but this may introduce unnecesary losses and may make tyre changing tricky.

Secondly is the issue of space. On most larger cars with alloy rims of at least 14" and standard brake disk/calipers this shouldn't be too much of an issue. However, if you want to convert a "smart car" with tiny rims, you'll need a more custom arrangement like pushing the magnets deeper into the tyre rim.

I'm an electronics / computer / HV electrical engineer so I've been working on the drive electronics too. We really need someone who's had experience programming automotive computers for stability control, etc since the hub motors need to work in unison and therefore need to be integrated into one drive control unit.

Cheers WheelMotor, hopefully we can get the ball rolling on this one.

Sam.


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## WheelMotor (Sep 16, 2008)

*In the running !*

Hi Samborambo,

Happy to hear you are less pessimistic than Major !

I am devoting all my time now to getting a prototype on a car asap. The coming week I will try to have a low cost FET motor controller with Hall sensors finished. 

A cooperation between us could be fruitful. My approach is to make a complete set of 2 Wheel Motors + controller manufactured in Low Cost Egypt available at a price level in the range of the classic in board DC motor + controller. 

I could produce and you commercialise. Exciting days ! Lets see how far we get .


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## samborambo (Aug 27, 2008)

I'm curious now - you'll have your drive design completed in a week? Can I see what you've got so far?

MOSFETs wouldn't really be suitable for a high voltage (~300V) design because of the ohmic losses. Drive systems in this power range almost exclusively use IGBTs due to the lower losses. IGBTs' losses (volt drop) are proportional to current whereas MOSFETs' losses (ohmic) are proportional to the current squared. You can get suitable MOSFETs in that power range but they won't perform as well. The drawback with IGBTs is more complex transistor driver circuit (require negative bias for efficient turn-off).

These IGBT six packs are specifically designed for hybrids and would suit individual wheel motors:

http://www.infineon.com/cms/en/product/channel.html?channel=db3a3043136fc1dd011370f45ed90441

I think we need to turn conventional motor construction on its head in a few respects. Most industrial electric machines are designed for constant power / speed applications. That's where most development has happened over the past few decades. I believe there's a lot of room for pioneering work in automotive traction motors.

I'm keen to use aluminium tape or foil for the magnet wire instead of copper for two reasons. First, aluminium has a higher specific heat capacity (temperature rise for a given mass and heating energy) so the motor will have 16% greater peak power including the weight reduction. For an equivalent conductive CSA, aluminium is HALF the weight of copper. The drawbacks of aluminium are 60% greater volume for equivalent copper CSA and thermal deformation - both of which can be designed for. Using tape or foil, the winding window would be almost the same area as copper since copper wire typically has a winding factor of 70% and even less for litz wire. A drawback of wide tape or foil could be increased eddy current losses in the windings. I haven't calculated the losses that eddy currents introduce but even in the worst case scenario, chokes can be added to reduce the effect.

The reduction in weight would greatly reduce the impact on unsprung weight. I'd like to aim to keep the rotor and stator together under 10kgs.

The second idea I had is to incorporate the ability to switch the configuration of the torque motor. For instance, with a 36 finger stator, 12 parallel x 1 serial per phase for high speed / half torque and 6p2s per phase for lower speed / full torque. This would keep the BEMF within a manageable range and increase efficiency of the IGBTs. Think of it somewhat like an electrical gear box - you're altering the turns ratio of the motor windings. The transition would be seamless since its the controller causing the switching based on speed thresholds and then halves or doubles the current.

Wheelmotor, please post up your design so far for both the motor and electronics. You said you want to participate in open source development of the motor. Please let others contribute too.

Sam.


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## WheelMotor (Sep 16, 2008)

*Time is money*

High Samborambo,

Happy with your contribution in this discussion !

The reason I did not shared openly my progression is that I felt no input (only scepticism ) from the other members at first. Second point is that I have no ambition to teach, I want to do business. Therefore I want an approach inspired by practicality.

So far:
Thanks for the tip about Insulated Gate Bipolar Transistor. I am 52 and my knowledge of electronics is getting a bit rusty. 
I ringed to the Distributor of Infineon in Brussels where I asked them for this "six pack". They said they did not followed this item because of infrequent demand, but they should investigate. They could/would not give a price.
However, I was not anticipating 300V. Normal should be 8 x 12 volt = 96 v. If we start with 8 V Trojans of 2 banks in parallel ... it gets bulky to get to even 150V.
For what the controller is considered: I will see what I can find here in Belgium and than start from there. If I can't get it working within 10 days or so, I can always postpone this item and by simply a Kelly controller.
http://www.kellycontroller.com/mot/Brushless-DC-Motor-Controller.html

For the wiring I was indeed intend to use aluminium, because as I see it now, unsprung weight is the (only?) possible hurdle to success. 

For what is considered the total construction of the wheel motor, I gave up on the idea to put the magnets in the rim and use the brake caliper to hold the rest of the engine. Because of the huge forces that the magnets will apply to the stator of the engine, it will be very difficult to change a tire + rim by the side of the road in case of a flat. The magnets can be destroyed if they smash in to the stator. Also the aluminium rim can flex a few mm and the airgap must be to big. Better to have the assembly under control in the factory. 
An other possibility is a custom made 2 piece rim.

A 36 finger stator ??? Have you measured the dimension of 1 coil with a 3 mm thick wire? and the brake caliper?

I don't want to go open source anymore. Because the feedback in this forum is to theoretical and to far from practical reality.

However Samborambo I will PM you about how we could cooperate.

Please let this thread be only dedicated to *commercial *contacting and brainstorming.


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## Technologic (Jul 20, 2008)

samborambo said:


> I'm keen to use aluminium tape or foil for the magnet wire instead of copper for two reasons.


Use copper clad aluminum wound between nomex (thin flat sheets)... that'll work just fine for the wire (flat wire being the OBVIOUS necessity here... but good luck finding it in egypt... seriously... good luck)

I'd use an electromagnetic braking DC motor... ie. a controller MUST be custom designed to permanently drive a variable (based upon braking power) voltage that would exert resistive forces on the stator and coils (DC not AC voltage... unless you wanted to get fancy with electro-anti-lock braking) 

Neodymium is a must (did I say must must)

Sorry for my non-engineering help, this is more a hands on help here. I can help you with your FEMM btw samb, very familiar with the program.


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## WheelMotor (Sep 16, 2008)

*Is the soup worth the cabbage ?*

Hi Tech,
Is the skin effect in the CCAW sufficient at the low frequency of only a few 100 Hz to justify its use ?


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## Technologic (Jul 20, 2008)

*Re: Is the soup worth the cabbage ?*



WheelMotor said:


> Hi Tech,
> Is the skin effect in the CCAW sufficient at the low frequency of only a few 100 Hz to justify its use ?


well copper clading offers a few benefits to just straight aluminum. Aluminum oxide will build up at terminals/any air exposure unless it's clad. The reason this is bad is aluminum oxide is actually electrically insulative (... actually besides diamond it's the most electrically insulative material on earth).

It's worth it in the long run but there are a number of ways to terminate aluminum wire safely without risk.

If you can find a cheaply priced CCAW flat wire I'd use it though... it's also quite a bit more conductive per cross section than just straight aluminum (10% more to be precise).


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## daveinsingapore (Jul 17, 2008)

*Re: Time is money*



WheelMotor said:


> High Samborambo,
> 
> Happy with your contribution in this discussion !
> 
> ...


Hi WheelMotor...I am Dave here in Singapore, have been following your discussion with Samborambo - a fellow countryman of mine and Tech about a wheel motor design. 

I am an Designer/Engineer/Architect working out of Singapore and have been looking and documenting the possibilities for this type of project for a while now. Lets set some parameters. Lets us not use last years technology so please dismiss the idea of using lead acid batteries...infact for this part of the design process, forget about what batteries are used but lets get out of the low voltage design..not less than 144 volts and look upwards to even 288v even higher, at this stage let us not restrict ourselves by mere battery voltage. 
As for the physical layout of the wheelmotor....is does not have a disc brake, so why even mention it. And it will have a alloy dismountable wheel, just like modern cars have, not a wheel that is the rotor, so there will be no removal of the rotor to change a tire. 
Using really good magnets is a must, nothing but neodymium, like Samborambo said it is a must, must ok...as for assembly of the finished rotor onto the stator, that would be a once only factory thing, never to be dissasembled on the side of the road to change anything, and with all wiring accessable from the rear of the stator which would be fixed to the existing hubs of the vehicle.
And your reference to fixing the engine to the brake caliper does not make sense - it is not a engine, it is an electric motor and there are no brake calipers, regenerative braking will be employed thru out and there will be no flex of the outer rotor against the inner stator because the circular construction of the rotor is stronger than you think. 

Any way I am going back to my day job and will catch up with you all later...I will be up Egypt way later this month, perhaps we could see each other Wheelmotor....gee I like my job...lol free travel to exotic places with sunbaked beaches with cool drinks in the shade......nah make that hot deserts....with warm canned drinks under a hot hot sun.....lol
ciao for now..


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## GLEVP (Jul 12, 2008)

And for under $1500 each. Including controller.


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## daveinsingapore (Jul 17, 2008)

GLEVP said:


> And for under $1500 each. Including controller.


hey thanks for the link, but after seeing other things come out of china..here in singapore, that are supposed to be high tech...I doubt I want to be buying something that looks like that....there appears to be too much weight hanging outside the original flange depth of the hub...I have seen inside chinese DC automotive motors here in singapore and they are not that pretty, their controllers are pretty basic too...understand this...China is going EV crazy...but not in a high tech way...no thanks...even for the price of $1500, besides it takes all the fun out of learning an doing for one's self....


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## samborambo (Aug 27, 2008)

*Re: Time is money*



daveinsingapore said:


> Hi WheelMotor...I am Dave here in Singapore, have been following your discussion with Samborambo - a fellow countryman of mine and Tech about a wheel motor design.
> 
> I am an Designer/Engineer/Architect working out of Singapore and have been looking and documenting the possibilities for this type of project for a while now. Lets set some parameters. Lets us not use last years technology so please dismiss the idea of using lead acid batteries...infact for this part of the design process, forget about what batteries are used but lets get out of the low voltage design..not less than 144 volts and look upwards to even 288v even higher, at this stage let us not restrict ourselves by mere battery voltage.


Like Dave said, LA cells should be off the radar completely. They COST you a lot more money in the long run compared to LiFePo4. As for voltage, for a BLDC motor with no gearing, the design needs a wide dynamic range of voltage to deliver enough torque at all speeds. I think you do have to take a stab at some point and decide on a working voltage. You can build a voltage boosting stage into your controllers but that's extra silicon in the current path = less efficiency and more money.



daveinsingapore said:


> As for the physical layout of the wheelmotor....is does not have a disc brake, so why even mention it. And it will have a alloy dismountable wheel, just like modern cars have, not a wheel that is the rotor, so there will be no removal of the rotor to change a tire.
> 
> Using really good magnets is a must, nothing but neodymium, like Samborambo said it is a must, must ok...as for assembly of the finished rotor onto the stator, that would be a once only factory thing, never to be dissasembled on the side of the road to change anything, and with all wiring accessable from the rear of the stator which would be fixed to the existing hubs of the vehicle.
> And your reference to fixing the engine to the brake caliper does not make sense - it is not a engine, it is an electric motor and there are no brake calipers, regenerative braking will be employed thru out and there will be no flex of the outer rotor against the inner stator because the circular construction of the rotor is stronger than you think.


So is this for a design of a new car or existing / retrofit? Sorry if I'm a bit behind but that would be a deciding whether or not you retain the original brakes, etc for a retrofit or you redesign from scratch with a motor capable of meeting the braking needs. 

A BLDC motor capable of emergency braking may be a tall order - certainly more than the torque requirements for acceleration. Do the math and you'll find you're trying to dissipate around 500kJ of energy for 100-0km/h - in how much time? You've also got the issue of whether or not you'd get certification for electromagnetic (non-friction) braking. Disk/drum brakes do their job very well.

I agree about the problem of mounting the rotor to the rims. Maybe a pressed steel plate that fits over the studs between the hub and the rim to hold the rotor?

Wheelmotor, I don't know what the feelings are of others here but if you're considering a closed/proprietary design, I'm not interested in helping. The purpose of this forum is to encourage individuals to share ideas and experience. If you're going to take the work that people here put into design, brainstorming, etc and produce a proprietary product to turn a profit, I think you'd be hard pushed to find anyone here prepared to put time in just to help you.

This guy has made some great work towards designing a radial flux hub motor using FEMM - similar to what has been described here but including a second inner rotor for greater torque density:

http://myownhybrid.wordpress.com/

He's open sourced the FEMM models here:

http://motorfemmulator.svn.sourceforge.net/viewvc/motorfemmulator/Magnetic/

He's been working ot it for about nine months but it seems that his blog stopped a few weeks ago as he's going back to study electrotech. He's based in Portugal from what I can gather.

I'm keen to pick up on his work but his models require FEMM 4.2 which is known not to work with Linux / Wine (I've been using FEMM 4.0). I'll have to bust out vmware with a full windows install and just work veeeeeery slooooooowly. 

I've seen those chinese wheel motors listed on Alibaba too. I dismissed them also due to a lack of specs / info and no response from several manufacturers. I can understand Dave's sentiments about the Chinese EV industry - I was suspicious of the same but couldn't confirm it.


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## WheelMotor (Sep 16, 2008)

*Non technical problems*

I agree with you Dave about the construction of the WM as a closed unit for many obvious reasons.

At this moment I am only blocked for legal reasons. We came also to the conclusion that letting the brake (disk or drum) in place will be impossible. Bolting the WM just beside the brake drum like GLEVP suggests here in the picture is ehum ... not acceptable. So our initial approach was to built the WM around the brake. This will not go because of heat and dust produced by the brakes. 

This has provoked a big legal obstacle for commercializing the WM. I don't see me suggesting a client to remove the brakes from his car (not even on 1 axle) and rely on regenerative braking only. In Belgium it's out of the question. People can not change anything on their car because the insurance will not cover you, in case of an accident, if your car is not conform the original and they can prove that there might be a link between the alteration and the accident. Like in the case they find out you removed the disc brakes from your car and replaced them by some novel electric stuff. I actually never hoped to commercialize in Europe from the start. In the US it could go, but the legal consequences must be considered.


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## daveinsingapore (Jul 17, 2008)

*Re: Non technical problems*



WheelMotor said:


> I agree with you Dave about the construction of the WM as a closed unit for many obvious reasons.
> 
> At this moment I am only blocked for legal reasons. We came also to the conclusion that letting the brake (disk or drum) in place will be impossible. Bolting the WM just beside the brake drum like GLEVP suggests here in the picture is ehum ... not acceptable. So our initial approach was to built the WM around the brake. This will not go because of heat and dust produced by the brakes.
> 
> This has provoked a big legal obstacle for commercializing the WM. I don't see me suggesting a client to remove the brakes from his car (not even on 1 axle) and rely on regenerative braking only. In Belgium it's out of the question. People can not change anything on their car because the insurance will not cover you, in case of an accident, if your car is not conform the original and they can prove that there might be a link between the alteration and the accident. Like in the case they find out you removed the disc brakes from your car and replaced them by some novel electric stuff. I actually never hoped to commercialize in Europe from the start. In the US it could go, but the legal consequences must be considered.


 
Hey Guy...that is your name right...WM...(hehehe)..saw your posting on MyOwnHybrid....I understand your situation in Belgium, the same in Singapore here....must be original or no insurance, where as in NZ and OZ and the States....certification of a modified vehicle will be accepted, and EV's and regenerative braking are not novel...and we are not making 'novelty' electric car thingys. 
Remember Tesla made electric cars over a hundred years ago in Europe and we are just heading back there are being over powered by the Oil magnates and the ICE's for the past 100 years.... Any way if we have to give these motors friction brakes that work, and if you want to retain the original stub axle on the front suspension then we have to look at locating the stator assembly behind the disc brake assembly and make the rotor out of ceramics so that heat does not bother the magnets and make the stator and rotor really narrow..and see if that works. A similar set up could be designed for a fixed rear axle for a rear wheel drive vehicle or fixed around the stubs of rear wheels for a front wheel driven vehicle...if you want to keep the brakes, then work around them. 
For me personally - I am going to figure how to reuse the BEMF from those motors without throwing out all that wasted energy, I would rather go with regenerative brakes then play with friction brakes...


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## WheelMotor (Sep 16, 2008)

*every day brings new questions*

*****,

I want to target the retrofit market.

Sorry, I have my bad days too. (about the OS aproach) Will be good boy and share.

Batteries are actually not my concern. I want to concentrate only on the WM.

As far as Vasco of MyOwnHybrid's blog is concerned. He too suggests that "the mechanical brakes will not function except for parking". Because he also wants to encapsulate the drum brake inside the WM. 

Our ruff calculations show that we don't need to worry about Torque. Because of the big Torque Arm of the radial constructed WM and the nature of the BLDC motor, Torque will be plenty.

So in the last days my attention has shifted from the electromechanical problems to the following :

1) How to shield the motor from Ferromagnetic debris that could lay on the road and the ferromagnetic dust that is produced by the brakes? 

2) How to make the WM adaptable to all kind of vehicles with disc and drum brakes ?

3) Can a company legally commercialize a product that suggests that you remove the original friction brakes from your car ?

4) If we start from a blank sheet WM/brake construction what do we do with the excess electric power generated by heavy regenerative braking? Like Guy mentions here: http://myownhybrid.wordpress.com/2007/12/10/motor-design/ This could implicate that we have to waste that energy because we get "to much to fast" . 

5) How to get rid of the heat that the friction brakes generate inside the WM, in case we still consider (for legal reasons) to build the WM around the brake ?


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## daveinsingapore (Jul 17, 2008)

*Re: every day brings new questions*



WheelMotor said:


> *****,
> 
> I want to target the retrofit market.
> 
> ...


 
lol oh you have been naughty boy Guy...but we will forgive you.....eventually...mean while have fun with your WM around the rear axle of a vehicle that only uses it parking brakes....cause that is what MyOwnHybrid has set out to do, as for the BEMF....why not charge batteries with it....that is what it is good for...duh....


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## WheelMotor (Sep 16, 2008)

*duh ... ?*

If you want to rely on your WM for Regen Braking in case of an emergency stop, you will need to absorb (charge) like 200 (and more) Amps / sec. If you want to push 2 or 300 amps in your battery you will need big Voltage at very high load to get that in your battery. I have no idea how that will go in real live (how the WM will perform as a generator) or how the battery will survive that mistreatment. 

It is not a coincident that GM is looking for Ultra Caps to put in the new Volt in order to blitz charge the regenerative braking power away in a matter of seconds !

Unfortunately they are very expensive at the moment and that's the prob Dave !

You can read it here:http://www.autobloggreen.com/2008/0...rcaps-with-li-ion-batteries-for-next-gen-e-f/

See animation here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fk7xbcnzxks

http://myownhybrid.wordpress.com/2007/12/10/motor-design/#comment-283


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## daveinsingapore (Jul 17, 2008)

*Re: duh ... ?*



WheelMotor said:


> If you want to rely on your WM for Regen Braking in case of an emergency stop, you will need to absorb (charge) like 200 (and more) Amps / sec. If you want to push 2 or 300 amps in your battery you will need big Voltage at very high load to get that in your battery. I have no idea how that will go in real live (how the WM will perform as a generator) or how the battery will survive that mistreatment.
> 
> It is not a coincident that GM is looking for Ultra Caps to put in the new Volt in order to blitz charge the regenerative braking power away in a matter of seconds !
> 
> ...


 
hey Guy....WM...please let us learn to crawl before we start to run...let us get this WM sorted out, and if we use regenerative braking, let's wait a few months. As for thr links you listed....these are from companies whose aim it is to stall the development of EV's as long as possible...with talk of great command centers...PCCs to control the voltages between the Super Caps, Li Ion batteries and the motor/generator....yeah all big talk...


mean while there are grass roots levels like this bicycle from Japan where they have worked on regenerative braking for their products and it works
http://www.engadget.com/2008/07/07/panasonics-lithium-vivi-rx-10s-electric-bike-does-regenerative/ and let is not forget that we will not be making mega hp motors first time out, so let this technology grow as we need it ok...

I know all the literature out there tell's us it is not easy to capture 'all that power' created under braking....but then all that takes is smart management...and I am sure we can work on that...

Have you see RC model cars racing at 50 km/hr come to stop in a matter of meters....well guess what they use.....regenerative braking....not disc brakes...we can get there ok...do not let the thought of costly Super Caps put you off the possibilities.


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## rj16273 (Oct 5, 2008)

I just stumbled upon this thread while looking for a reliable source for wheel motors. I certainly applaud your "can do" attitude. 

I have been researching the viability of a reasonable priced electric motorcycle. There are several out there already but at a cost that puts them beyond the marketplace. While I love the idea of having an electric version of my Honda Accord I think we all know that EV's are going to cost more than the average person can afford, barring some revolution in battery technology.

I think a very logical step in the future will be that we many of us may need to downsize are vehicles to what we absolutely need. A quick look at any third world country will reveal that two wheels are more popular than four and it has nothing to do with being out in the fresh air.

Retrofitting a motorcycle with a wheel motor might be less problematic since you can manufacture the entire wheel/axle assembly. With optional spacers you could bolt a single wheel motor/hub on to almost any motorcycle frame. By using an external disc brake, which is popular on many motorcycles already, you could solve your heat and dust problem.

What I am looking for is a wheel motor in the 4 - 5Kw range, running on 60 to 96 volts with a maximum speed of 1200rpm. Regenerative braking, even if it is only capable of mild braking would also be a plus.

Your projected price of $1,500 might be a little expensive for my project but the motor I would be looking for would be substantially smaller too. Many backyard motorcycle EV tinkers have been using a standard DC motor in a standard motorcycle engine/chain combination. This is very cost effective but not as efficient. It also takes up space in the frame that could be used for batteries.

Good Luck with your endeavor.


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## daveinsingapore (Jul 17, 2008)

rj16273 said:


> I just stumbled upon this thread while looking for a reliable source for wheel motors. I certainly applaud your "can do" attitude.
> 
> I have been researching the viability of a reasonable priced electric motorcycle. There are several out there already but at a cost that puts them beyond the marketplace. While I love the idea of having an electric version of my Honda Accord I think we all know that EV's are going to cost more than the average person can afford, barring some revolution in battery technology.
> 
> ...


 
thank you rj for reading and understanding the topic...I am on a couple of similar forums and the development of a wheel hub motor is being looked at from several sides and for smaller projects, like 2 wheel vehicles it seems we do not have that much mass to stop in a hurry, but the heavier the vehicle, the more need there is for another form of positive braking besides regenerative braking...at present, so yes a disc brake on a motor cycle is quite acceptable as long as it can be linked to the wheel hub motor, and drum brakes are being proposed for full size vehicles with the hub motor between the drum and the rim of the wheel leaving the brakes to work regardless, untill we can develop a regenerative system that takes all that other wise spent energy created when one wants to stop..into reusable stored enegry. Yeah all takes time to develop. 

ciao for now...


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

rj16273 said:


> What I am looking for is a wheel motor in the 4 - 5Kw range, running on 60 to 96 volts with a maximum speed of 1200rpm. Regenerative braking, even if it is only capable of mild braking would also be a plus.


Almost what you're looking for, a 3Kw PM hub motor with disc brake, 48-72 volts:
http://www.electricmotorsport.com/store/ems_ev_parts_motors_evthub.php
They don't give diameter or width.


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## daveinsingapore (Jul 17, 2008)

JRP3 said:


> Almost what you're looking for, a 3Kw PM hub motor with disc brake, 48-72 volts:
> http://www.electricmotorsport.com/store/ems_ev_parts_motors_evthub.php
> They don't give diameter or width.


hey dearest sweetest kindest JRP3....a very nice link...how ever have been there done that...do not want brushed motor, am working on brushless...higher efficiency, no maintainence and not last years technology.....ok..but thanks for the reminder of what was available a couple of years ago...in China and India they think this technology is wonderful...but then remember they just got running water in there houses a few years ago too.....lol


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

I was actually suggesting that motor as a possibility for what rj16273 was looking for. Certainly it has it's drawbacks but it might work for some.


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## samborambo (Aug 27, 2008)

A (powerful) hub motor for a motorcycle is pretty ambitious when you consider weight. The effect of unsprung weight is proportional to the ratio of the unsprung weight to the total vehicle mass. So for a car or truck, this can be managed when designing a hub motor since the ratio of unsprung weight is small compared to the total vehicle mass. Not so with a motorcycle.

I'm working on a motorcycle conversion at the moment. Aiming for 25kW and 200km+ range so it'll be a heavy bike but not much more than an average 900cc touring bike. Full fairing is a must as bikes typically have a lot more aerodynamic drag compared to cars which affects high speed losses more significantly.

Sam.


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## rj16273 (Oct 5, 2008)

Thanks JRP, it might be worth a look. It seems a little underpowered but the price is right, at least for experimenting with. As to Dave's comment, newer brushless technology would be prefered but I think that is why many of the commercially available EV motorcycles cost over 10K. As to brushless lasting longer, let's face it an electric motorcycle is not something that we expect 100,000 miles from anyway.


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## rj16273 (Oct 5, 2008)

samborambo said:


> A (powerful) hub motor for a motorcycle is pretty ambitious when you consider weight. The effect of unsprung weight is proportional to the ratio of the unsprung weight to the total vehicle mass. So for a car or truck, this can be managed when designing a hub motor since the ratio of unsprung weight is small compared to the total vehicle mass. Not so with a motorcycle.
> 
> I'm working on a motorcycle conversion at the moment. Aiming for 25kW and 200km+ range so it'll be a heavy bike but not much more than an average 900cc touring bike. Full fairing is a must as bikes typically have a lot more aerodynamic drag compared to cars which affects high speed losses more significantly.
> 
> Sam.


We are all taught that unsprung weight is bad but honestly, how bad. Many older Harleys had no suspension at all in the back at all (hard tails). Most agree that for hard acceleration, unsprung weight can lead to wheel hop and reduced traction, but with 25kw that shouldn't be a problem. If rough roads are common where you drive than you may need to beef up your axle to handle the extra stress but that should be about it. 

I'm curious what you are planning on using for batteries to achieve your 200km range. Most motorcycles need at least 4 or 5kw to sustain 100kmh. A quick calculation would seem that you will need 8 to 10kw of storage capacity with a C2 discharge rate. Lead acid is out of the question due to weight and anything else would be in the $10,000 range.


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## TX_Dj (Jul 25, 2008)

Whoa.

Hard tail choppers have no consideration for unsprung weight in the back, as there are no springs in the back.

Ride quality is at its worst possible, because all the weight is carried by and directly transferred to the frame.

Unsprung weight is only a consideration when suspensions are involved, no?


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## MylesJ (Oct 7, 2008)

What range of power will your motors take? Will you have braking included? Have you identified the controller to co-ordinate the motors and can it perform the function of providing a differential for turns?

My interest is in promoting electric conversion for older collector cars as the hard parts are no longer available and/or affordable. Most of these cars had engines rated under 100hp. Most of them are not used as everyday drivers. Rotors totaling from 6 to 15KW should work well for these vehicles. Maximum RPMs run about 1000 for 55mph ability. I have a different product that I sell to ato repair shops. I'm trying to get those shops interested in the electric conversion market. Lack of a usable hub motor is one of the major problems. Hardened transmission gears and differentials are very expensive for these cars so eliminating the transmission entirely is a major plus.


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## GKnightBC (Sep 10, 2008)

Regarding your possible development, are we talking a similar product as the PML Hi-PA drive, when the motor and controller are all in-wheel, and only the battery is in the engine compartment? If so, what gearing-equivalent ratios are you intending to incorporate into the unit? What max speed are you enabling, and what is your expected specifications (weight, torque, regen, etc.)? At what point, based on your speculation of $1,500 per wheel, will you begin to see volume price reductions, ie: once your factory hits 100,000 units, price drops to $1,200 per unit. I am interested because I am in the process for starting a company for EV conversions, and wheelmotors have a great prospect for this. The PML Hi-PA offers 85% regen down to 0 impulse, based upon thier wheelmotors and supercaps to capture the energy, do you see your device having the same (or better!) ?


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## WheelMotor (Sep 16, 2008)

*In Wheel Motor ... affordable ... but where to start ?*

Hi, Happy with the last 2 reactions !

GKnightBC,
Yes PML is definitively the big example! I am not intent to include the controller in the WM. I don't see an advantage in it and it doesn't really matter where the controller is located. Gearing ? No gearing ! The motor is producing tork directly on the wheel itself. The nature of the BLDC motor is that it will be great for Regenerative Braking. I don't think that 100.000 units/ ??? Month / year is a very realistic perspective.

The real problems that keeps me busy at this moment are:
We came to the conclusion that in order to place the motor in the wheel, the brake has to be removed. This is legally a big problem. Also because I target the conversion market, there is to much diversity of vehicles. In order to make it commercially feasible I need a commercial contact in the US market and a first big volume car that we could target for conversion. Collector Classics are a great target market. Let's assume we take these sort of cars. So we speak about rear driven / drum break cars. It could be possible that we let in that case the drum brake in place. This makes the project already more realistic.

MylesJ
Differential in left right speed is no problem at all because the wheels are totally independent. To limit the slip it is easily possible to read the wheel RPM from the Hall sensors and from there on to limit the current to the slipping wheel, if we want to simulate a limited slip differential.

But !!!
We have to be realistic and set (gradually) the order of priority of the problems. The wheel motor was already used by Ferdinand Porsche in 1896 !!! So technically there is not an insurmountable problem. No problem of enough Tork, efficiency etc etc. Till now the Battery was the problem. 
And for our "Affordable Wheel Motor" project the BIG problem is Commercially and Legal in the first place. So before we start a discussion about how much % regenerative energy we can recuperate when braking we should deal with the issues: How must the WM be Legally so that we are allowed to commercialize it in the US. Who is placed to commercialise it ? What car are we targeting ? etc etc.


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## Nielmo (Oct 13, 2008)

The makers Lightning GT are not planning to include conventional brakes. So they say at least.

Are they really getting away with that?


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## Nielmo (Oct 13, 2008)

Using an in-wheel motor does not mandate placement in the wheels, does it?
In a conversion you could well keep the original drive train as you do with ordinary motors.
If you get the price low enough people will buy them for regular conversions too.


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## WheelMotor (Sep 16, 2008)

*Affordable ... probably but ...*



Nielmo said:


> Using an in-wheel motor does not mandate placement in the wheels, does it?
> In a conversion you could well keep the original drive train as you do with ordinary motors.
> If you get the price low enough people will buy them for regular conversions too.


Indeed it could even be used on a front wheel driven hatch back to power the back wheels with an extra 100 Hp as a sort of turbo / nitro replacement for the extra kick during acceleration only. 

My intention was to change nothing on the car, but only ad the wheel motors in a configuration around the brakes. But due to to much variables on all sorts of cars, we need first to determine with what car we start. 

What worries me most: Lets assume you simply remove the back brakes on a front wheel driven Volkswagen Golf/Rabbit for example. And you replace them with a Wheel Motor, but you let all the rest of the suspension in place. We develop a system to control the reg braking in relation to the hydraulic front braking, so that the back wheels don't block due to the weight shift etc. Should work perfect. But now you have to get your car through some technical control to get it licensed for the road ... 
In Belgium: No chance ! Can you get accepted in the US ? I have no idea. And how about the car insurance? In Belgium they will refuse you. If you modify your car and tell them nothing (after you have done all the paperwork) and you get an accident ... wow ... then you are in big troubles.

Who has experience with this in the US ?


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## EVHound (Oct 24, 2008)

*Re: Affordable ... probably but ...*



WheelMotor said:


> Indeed it could even be used on a front wheel driven hatch back to power the back wheels with an extra 100 Hp as a sort of turbo / nitro replacement for the extra kick during acceleration only.
> 
> My intention was to change nothing on the car, but only ad the wheel motors in a configuration around the brakes. But due to to much variables on all sorts of cars, we need first to determine with what car we start.
> 
> ...


 
Hello,

I am from the US, but don't know much about the insurance issues related to this. I do know that it would be easy to insure the vehicle. They are not inspected for insurance purposes. It would probably not even be discovered there were no brakes on some of the wheels if the vehicle were involved in an accident, unless it was a catastrophic one. However, I do see issues with only having brakes on one end of the car or the other. If there was a blowout on one or both wheels that had braking capabilities, loss of control would be almost 100 percent. It seems to me conventional drum type brakes could easily be adapted into the housing of the wheel motor. It would have to be outside of the weatherproof "motor" part of the wheel motor, but it seems to me it could be done. It could be designed to use a common brake pad from a very common car (ie. a '57 Chevy).

On another note, what horsepower and torque do these wheel motors you have planned generate? I can think of other applications where they can be used (particularly with large 18 wheeler type vehicles) if the horsepower and torque is enough.


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## WheelMotor (Sep 16, 2008)

*Re: Affordable ... probably but ...*

EVHound,

The rear drum brakes will be replaced by the regenerative braking of the WheelMotors. For the back wheels, this would be an equal braking power compared to the drums. To put the wheel motor around the drum brake world produce heat and dust inside the wheel motor. 

To give an idea of how much power such a wheel can produce read here: PML


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## EVHound (Oct 24, 2008)

*Re: Affordable ... probably but ...*



WheelMotor said:


> EVHound,
> 
> The rear drum brakes will be replaced by the regenerative braking of the WheelMotors. For the back wheels, this would be an equal braking power compared to the drums. To put the wheel motor around the drum brake world produce heat and dust inside the wheel motor.
> 
> To give an idea of how much power such a wheel can produce read here: PML


 
Sorry, I missed the part on the reg braking. I don't think there would be any problems getting past regulatory hurdles. I know that PML is using regen brakes as well as Volvo who is using the PML wheel motor. I just saw on the PML site that Ford is showing a new F150 pickup using their HiPa Drive. I would think that if the regen brakes work, they will pass muster here in the US. I did look at a couple of other electric car manufactuers, Phoenix and Tesla. They are capturing power from regen braking, but they are suplementing their braking with disk brakes. They are not using wheel motors on their vehicles, however.


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

WHY THE HELL DIDN'T ANYONE TELL ME ABOUT THIS THREAD BEFORE!!!??? 
TX_Dj, have you been holding out on me??

Oh, well better late than never. I'm here now.

WheelMotor, are you serious about selling these for $1500 each? What sort of performance are you planning? torque? max power? max RPM?

I've been looking for a wheel motor builder or supplier for a while now but I basically gave up because all of the sources were too expencive and in one case were offended that I even inquired. How far are you from being able to supply these motors? 

Can you show any pictures yet?


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

I'm going to take a wild guess and make a prediction that there is no way a decent wheel motor powerful enough for a reasonably sized vehicle will be sold for $1500.


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## WheelMotor (Sep 16, 2008)

EVHound,
My problem is that I target the conversion market and that the companies that you mention focus on 1 specific car. That's why I shifted my attention from technical to commercial. It seams impossible to start a general WM project without a specific car to implement it on.
David,
I pm you, please reply.
I really need somebody on the other end (the commercial end) of the project before to move on. I need direct contact for constructive and intense brainstorming about what car to start with. How big is the possible weekly production etc etc. Without a clear view about where to go, It makes no sense to me, to prove anything. That a wheel motor can be made that has enough tork to move a car .... that's already done by at least a dozen of companies.
JRP3,
Waw that's a sceptic surprise ! If Tata can make the whole bloody car for 2500 $ than I don't see why we can not make only a wheel motor for the same price range, in a country where the salaries are the same as in India.


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## vgslimo (Oct 21, 2008)

WheelMotor said:


> It seams impossible to start a general WM project without a specific car to implement it on.


i could be completely wrong but if you wanted to build a wheel motor for the conversion market, why not just focus on building the best motor capable of fitting the most likely conversion car then as you are designing how they attach to the rim, take into account the ability to use hub adapter plates. like changing a standard rim 5 bolt to a seven bolt? maybe just build them to move a 3000lb vehicle and to fit a 13" four bolt wheel. then sell adapters for every bolt pattern. just a thought.


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## WheelMotor (Sep 16, 2008)

Vgslimo,

it would be something like that, indeed. But I want that input from somebody who is already introduced in that conversion market, so that we develop the WM as the result of continuous communication and for the most popular car in that commercial man's market.

In Belgium that could be a Volkswagen Golf. But in the US it could be a GM C2500 Suburban. Making 1 WM to fit both cars would not work I think.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

WheelMotor said:


> JRP3,
> Waw that's a sceptic surprise ! If Tata can make the whole bloody car for 2500 $ than I don't see why we can not make only a wheel motor for the same price range, in a country where the salaries are the same as in India.


My guess is that the Tata is a piece of crap. I know it could never be sold in the US. I assume you want to make a high quality component. The cost of a good wheel motor is going to involve tooling and quality components more than labor. Since an ADC9 or Warp9 sells for around $1600 and a wheel motor needs to be much more robust and waterproof I'd be very surprised if you could sell it for less. Believe me I'd be quite happy to have you prove me wrong, but since no one has even come close to producing a good wheel motor for even 10 times the price you are quoting you'll have to forgive me if I'm skeptical. Also, it makes no sense to try to build one sized motor for all vehicles, for some it would be too large and for some it would be too small. Pick a common size range, Honda civic, Toyota corolla, etc. and start there.


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## WheelMotor (Sep 16, 2008)

*Pml*

New demo car with videos of the PML wheel motor on a FORD truck. 

http://www.autobloggreen.com/2008/11/11/video-pml-f-150-w-in-wheel-motors-test-driven/


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Neat, but as others have commented there I'd like to see acceleration tests. It's also annoying that they talk about how you'd want to put an engine in it and make it a hybrid. How about sticking more batteries in the engine bay instead of a motor and getting 150 miles range? Don't muck up my EV with an ICE and it's associated garbage: fuel tank, exhaust, radiator, coolant, etc. Especially in a truck where you could load a generator in the bed if you occasionally need extended range.


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

JRP3 said:


> Neat, but as others have commented there I'd like to see acceleration tests.


I'm with you, JRP3. I cannot figure these PML guys out. Like the dude in the video. He says quite distinctly that the motors are 150 hp each. He goes on to say that each puts out 1200 foot pounds or 1000 Newton meters. Find anything disturbing about that? 1200 lb.ft. = 1627 Nm. Or 1000 Nm = 738 lb.ft. I have never seen any third party testing of a PML wheelmotor. I simply do not believe these guys.

Regards,

major


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Yeah I thought I mis-heard what he said about the torque figures since they didn't add up and sounded insane.


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## WheelMotor (Sep 16, 2008)

*EV videos*

Especially the sharp contrast between what he said and the truck buzzing around without any demonstration acceleration with that supposed formidable tork. 

This video is much more convincing but not from PML. Also this video shows the cars vivid acceleration. It goes in 9 sec from 0 to 100 km/h but has no WMs, but a conventional configuration. It is made by Hybrid Technologies and for sale now.

Funny home build mini video that rocks !

More sporty EV fun here.

Must see video of Michelin WM car !!


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

I'm beginning to have my doubts abour PML myself. Its already been a few years since they unveiled their mini concept and we still haven't seen the car do the 4 wheel burnout that they claimed almost from day one. But I guess they really don't have to considering the kind of customers they've managed to land.


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

*Re: EV videos*



WheelMotor said:


> Must see video of Michelin WM car !!


Hey Mr. WM,

Thanks for posting that. I've been watching the Michelin WM, from afar. Near as I can tell, they use a high speed motor and high ratio gear reduction system. In my mind, much better approach than non-geared attempts. Still has issues. Their appraoch needs a second motor in the wheel to deal with those issues. But it sure looked good in the video. Venture to say what it cost?

By the way, quote from you a couple months ago.



> Major,
> you are a pessimist
> 
> 
> ...


How is that coming along?

Regards,

major


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## WheelMotor (Sep 16, 2008)

*patience*

Because of not a single cautious commercial contact of any kind, I had to slow down my initial enthusiasm. I have actually no application for that wheel motor my self. Living in Belgium it is totally forbidden and impossible to retrofit a WM on your car. But I am not giving up yet !


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## Action Jackson (Oct 16, 2008)

Congrats on your prototype wheel motor. Can you post some more pics of your wheel motor. How about a picture of the inside. magnets, stator?

Thanks!


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## Ron Atkinson (Apr 17, 2008)

Both Volvo and Siemens have superb hub-motors about to "hit the street", the Siemens motor comes in a special package, with sensors performing other tasks too! "Light years" ahead of any competition I would say. For the average DIY person you may be able to hit a "niche-market" good luck to you!!!


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## fj1200 (Dec 23, 2008)

*Re: patience*



WheelMotor said:


> Because of not a single cautious commercial contact of any kind, I had to slow down my initial enthusiasm. I have actually no application for that wheel motor my self. Living in Belgium it is totally forbidden and impossible to retrofit a WM on your car. But I am not giving up yet !


I have to say I'm a little confused by your business plan. You want a commercial contact that has the resources and the reach to tap into a market focusing on a large volume car that is rip for a conversion; I don't think you'll find one of those. One car model I don't think will ever have enough market size to make it worthwhile. A car line that has many models with similarity of platforms over multiple models and years would be more feasible in my mind, Subaru for example, but probably still too limiting.



WheelMotor said:


> ... Also because I target the conversion market, there is to much diversity of vehicles. In order to make it commercially feasible I need a commercial contact in the US market and a first big volume car that we could target for conversion. Collector Classics are a great target market.


I dare say, owners of "classics" probably wouldn't be caught dead doing this sort of thing to their cars.

There are many suppliers to the conversion market that have successfully created kits that can be installed relatively easily which raises some questions. What sort of modifications do you envision are necessary to retrofit existing cars? New rims? New suspension, swing arms, control arms, etc., not to mention brakes which has obviously been discusssed? If you can come up with something that doesn't require changing much of what's there it becomes easier to install and hence market to a receptive crowd.


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## WheelMotor (Sep 16, 2008)

Hi fj1200,

I am currently making a prototype for a french customer, who makes a Wheel Motor according to the principles of Vasco of MyOwnHybrid and has plans for limmited application in serie.

According to his simulations the WM will have over 600 NM of tork. It will be water cooled.

I search indeed for a contact in the market. But that doesn't need to be BIG volume. 50 WMs a month would allready be enough to start serie production. 

In a few months we will put here a youtube video as a teaser.

We still believe it can be done for around 1000 EUR / wheel


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

Please keep us posted...


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## WheelMotor (Sep 16, 2008)

*PML bankrupt*


It's been announced that the electric race car *we were telling you about* from Bee Automobiles Ltd will now contend for the British Speed Hill Climb Championship in 2010 as the BRM Bee Four ERV. This revives the BRM (British Racing Motors) brand that was born 60 years ago and has *a rich and proud history*. This also delays the original plan by a year, but should give them the necessary time to introduce a car that is fully tested and ready to win. There is hope that we'll see it before then as it is rumored that it may make some cameos at events this year.








While we had suspected they were using the *PML Flightlink* in-wheel motors to achieve their claimed 700 bhp, we were somewhat glad to learn differently. PML Flightlink went into administration in November and the future of their *Hi-Pa Drive™* motors is unclear. Bee Automotive will be making use of in-wheel motor technology that was *developed at Oxford University*. They are said to be 97 percent efficient, have high torque and low weight. We look forward to seeing them in action. Hit the jump for all the details in the press release.

Read the rest here: autobloggreen


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

*Re: PML bankrupt*



WheelMotor said:


> Bee Automotive will be making use of in-wheel motor technology that was *developed at Oxford University*.


Hi WM,

That does not look like a wheelmotor to me. And, do you know anything more about the demise of PML? Interesting stuff. Thanks for posting it.

Regards,

major


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

It could be an in wheel motor and they are using the gear reduction for better low end to get RPM's up. I could see how that might fit in a wheel if it's small enough, or the wheel is large enough.


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## WheelMotor (Sep 16, 2008)

*Pml*

Was yesterday on the Brussels Motor show and I went also to the Volvo stand. 2 years ago they demonstrated a car with PML in wheel motors. This time it was gone and even no new evolution of the old proto was shown, no electrics on the Volvo stand. We know why.
For our own WM we studied thoroughly the patent website of the PML design. I found it had some "unsolved problems" and we took an other road. Still a big hurdle of the PML design as well as our own is the BIG added unsprung weight. And it is not a few kilo's but more like 20+ kg. And that's a lot. So it's not a coincidence that the Oxford univ design stresses on the weight. I think this is the single most biggest handicap of in wheel motors. 
On the Mitsubishi stand was a fully functioning road ready iMiEV. They also had a price of about 20.000 euro for it. It would be available soon, they said. But, I also climbed under it, it had no wheel motors, but an electric motor with gearbox. Inside in the back.


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## tomthumb (Jan 26, 2009)

I have been considering making an EV from a car I have for about 2 years. In my opinion, using wheel motors is by far the best way to do that. The car is very light, (about 1700 lbs with engine, etc) and the engine only produces 65 hp. By removing the drive train, cooling system, exhaust, fuel tank, etc. the weight should be reduced about 400-450 lbs. Since the body is fiberglass, I should be able to reproduce that car fairly easily. Using wheel motors, I should be able to make a prototype from my car and production cars could just be a replica of the original. If I could get the wheel motors for the price you mentioned previously, I believe I could make this work.

I know that unsprung weight is an issue, but considering that I would be using aluminum wheels, with smaller tires (but still 15") than most cars on the road, and no axles, the unsprung weight shouldn't increase that much. Then if you compare the weight to cars with steel wheels, larger tires and solid rear axles, it might even be lighter.

Anyway, if I could get some wheel motors (even prototypes), I could get a car out there to test in 3 - 6 months.

Jim


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Good luck, since there really is nothing out there at this time for a car sized vehicle. You'd be better off building it with a direct drive to a differential and actually getting it on the road now, then down the road if a decent wheel motor ever arrives it would be simple to retrofit. Wiring and controlling a single motor is also much easier and cheaper.


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## Hillbilly (Jun 23, 2009)

Let me know if you get one built. I think your idea has potential to be more affordable because of it's radial design. The PML Flightlink Motors are Axial. Also, your idea uses the existing brake rotor and bearing of the car, that makes it a lot easier to convert any vehicle.

I am trying to build a car company, and I really like the specs on the PML Flighlink motors, but the price is prohibitive at the moment.


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## WheelMotor (Sep 16, 2008)

*In Wheel Motor ... affordable ... but is it the way to go ?*

As you know, PML is bankrupt. 
Mitsubishi experimented with wheel motors for it's I Miev but gave up for a simple in board E motor. The prob is the big unsprung weight. Putting the motor inside and using 2 cardans to connect to a conventional suspension makes almost no difference in performance but solves the weight problem. 
In order to bring an EV on the road one has to focus on the important isues first and that is not putting the motor in the wheel I am afraid.

I haven't been here anymore, because I was close to the development of a prototype together with a french guy but the cooperation proved challenging. 

It may not be a surpice that no big company has yet adopted the concept of in wheel motors. 

Retrofitting is also not an option because of legal consequences. But if you know how to overcome all the hurdles I am still in Egypt and ready to prototype, on condition it can be done in a mutual feedback way and with the basic tools available this country.


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## Hillbilly (Jun 23, 2009)

I think a retrofit could be possible by joining SEMA. They have a great track record of winning lawsuits for aftermarket suppliers.

The vehicle I want to build will not have an issue of unsprung weight, and it addresses a huge segment of the market.

Large 4 wheel drive trucks, and small jeeps, have axles that weigh anywhere from 350 pounds to 800 pounds.

The traction advantages, efficiency, braking and handling benefits, and ease of conversion will make wheel motors the way to go for off road vehicles.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Except the lack of gearing means no torque multiplication so the motors will need to be built much larger to handle low end torque, and they'll have to be built even heavier and with better waterproofing to survive the hard pounding, submersion, and mud. Wheel motors have a loooong way to go before they are ready for off road conditions, if ever.


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## GLEVP (Jul 12, 2008)

40/80 KW Hubmotor;


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## WheelMotor (Sep 16, 2008)

*a possebility !*

Rather coincidential I tumbled over this:

The jaguars XJ from 1961 till 1996 had a unique rear suspension. They were probably the only car (please correct me if wrong) that had the disc brakes not inside the wheels but adjacent to the differential. 

This opens new possibilities for the after fitting of Wheel motors. 
Big problems to overcome on a normal car are:
1) Where to ad the wheel motor? Simply stick it between the wheel and the disc brake ? Thereby ruffly increasing the track with at least 10 cm. The wheel will stick out of the arches. Beside the fact that it is totally forbidden (in Europe).
2) option 2 is to encapsulate the disc inside the WM. Thereby adding minimum extra track ... but ... The disc might get hot and produces dust . On top of that, you have to open the WM to replace the brake pats. It was a bit to big of a hurdle, so we were stuck. 

But by using an old Jag it might be enough to replace the original hub by the stator of our WheelMotor and ad an ouside drum with the permanent magnets, therby having non of the above problems.

Pls look and comment on the attached drawing, that should give an idea of the set up.



















The pictures come from Wikipedia Here : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jaguar_independent_rear_suspension


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## tomthumb (Jan 26, 2009)

My son had a jaguar and the cost of replacing the failed brakes were too much to warrant keeping the car.

Other solutions:


Modify the suspension so it is closer to the center of the car, which would allow both the wheel motor and disc.
Extend the body of the car to cover the wheel. This would work in my Saab Sonett, since it has a fiberglass body and easily modified.
One of the most commonly mentioned problems with wheel motors is that they increase the unsprung weight of the car. If we get rid of the driveshafts that should compensate some. If we get rid of the disc brakes and use the motors to provide active and passive braking (reverse power or just sending the power generated by the wheel motor to the batteries) the weight could be reduced even more.


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## WheelMotor (Sep 16, 2008)

*The completely unbelievable Michelin Wheel Motor*

I have seen this Michelin WM a few times, but apparently overlooked the claimed Kws of the thing. 
So they have achieved 30Kw out of a motor the size of ... what ? my fist ?
Estimated by the ratio between the rim diameter and the electric motor it will not be more than 10 cm (3.9 inch) of diameter. Also NO COOLING visible ???
At 90 % efficiency this motor will also produce 3 kw of heat. 
Have you ever seen a motor of 30 KW ? That's (in the real world) a beast of at least 200 kg (440 lbs). They also are specifying that it is "continuous" power. 
Go here to see what a 30Kw asynchronous motor of the company Baldor looks like. It is 19 inch (25Cm) wide by 33 inch (85Cm) long and weights 709 lbs (320kg).
So if the Michelin wonder boys managed to make that engine of a "negligible weight", so that it can be fitted together with a lot of other components (one has even to search for it in that complex setup) than that is really really an invention !
I am astonished. Can anybody comment on this ?


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

First off you don't want to compare the power and weight of an industrial motor meant to run for days or months under load to an EV traction motor. Tesla gets a lot more power, over 180KW max, from a 75 lb motor.
Second, the Michelin motor obviously uses gear reduction so that has to be added in to the weight, the entire assembly with suspension is around 95lbs. This is not to say that I don't think it's impressive, just that comparing it to a 400lb. industrial motor isn't very accurate.


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## WheelMotor (Sep 16, 2008)

*appels with appels*

If comparing the power of electric motors, we have to look at how long this power can be asked from that motor. In the case of this Michelin wheel they explicitly mention: Continuous Power 
To squeeze 30 Kw for lets say an hour out of an electric motor the size of a can of beans, without any (visible) cooling or liquid cooling piping connections that is ... more than amazing !
The comparison with an industrial motor is only to put things a bit in perspective. Although providing this power for a 3 hours blast over the German Autobahn from let's say Bremen to Munich, a 600 Km stretch, at let's say 200Km/H one could also consider "an industrial application" .


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

Interesting read about in wheel motors.

I do have some ideas that challenge the accepted norm but as WheelMotor is a commercial enterprise I will refrain from giving away anything that may end up as a commercial venture for someone else.

No offence meant WM but I have been caught out discussing what I thought was my design and going open source but for the other person to build my idea and sell it as a private venture.


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## IamIan (Mar 29, 2009)

On the issue of cooling ... I don't think it is as big a deal as suspected.

Most brakes produce over 100kW of braking power with almost 100% of it being converted to heat... only tiny bits as light, and sound, etc...

Yes, the brakes are not needed to do this for overly long extended periods of time but they can still do it for as long as the engineer that built them, needed them to...

similarly 30kW per Wheel x4 wheels = 120kW .... that kind of power is only need during acceleration , which is always short lived for only a few seconds... or for a large heavy unaerodynamic vehicle traveling at high speeds.

Don't get me wrong... cooling matters and is important ... but the duration of the heating event in application is far more important than the amount of heat generated.


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## CroDriver (Jan 8, 2009)

Even if the IW motors get affordable there's another problem... You would need four controllers for a car. 

It's hard for me to believe that IW motors will be common soon


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## WheelMotor (Sep 16, 2008)

As you can see here Volvo too abandoned the in wheel motor in it's latest version of the electric C30.


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

WheelMotor said:


> Major,
> 
> you are a pessimist . Within a few months I will be back here with a video of a prototype installed in a car. Than we speak again !


Hi there Mr. WheelMotor,

A year since you called me a pessimist. Not much progress, is there? Thinking about changing your name? 

The in-wheel motor seems like a good idea on the surface. So it becomes a product everyone wants. But nobody has been able to deliver. Why is that? Maybe it isn't really a good idea after all. If the in-wheel motor actually was a great idea, why then isn't the in-wheel internal combustion engine?

Regards,

major


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## IamIan (Mar 29, 2009)

major said:


> If the in-wheel motor actually was a great idea, why then isn't the in-wheel internal combustion engine?


I don't follow.

Why would the presence or lack of a internal combustion engine wheel motor have anything at all to do with the viability of an electric wheel motor?

-----------------------

To be sure there are a variety of issues to deal with for wheel motors. Just like there are a variety of issues to deal with any motor.

Maybe it will be a long time before all those issues are dealt with. But the issues have already been dealt with in some applications where the electric wheel motor is already used heavily.

I see the electric wheel motor as an eventuality ... kind of like going to EVs as an eventuality ... There are inherent advantages to that system ... issues or no ... it is only a matter of time.

Of course I hope it is sooner than latter.


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

IamIan said:


> I don't follow.
> 
> Why would the presence or lack of a internal combustion engine wheel motor have anything at all to do with the viability of an electric wheel motor?


Hi Iam,

Just part my strange sense of humor and part food for thought. 

Talking passenger cars here, not bikes, massive construction equipment or industrial vehicles. There have undoubtedly been millions of hours devoted to invention, innovation, design and refinement of the car. Now, if the concept of decentralizing the power plant down to the wheels warranted great advantage, shouldn't we have seen attempts to do so with the engine?

I don't want to get into a big debate about it. I just like to needle WheelMotor a bit because he came on so strong as if he had the solution. He calls me a pessimist because I relate reality. Fact is that many have tried, all have failed. But, no reason to stop trying is there? I just look at the odds and don't see a product there.

Regards,

major


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## IamIan (Mar 29, 2009)

major said:


> Hi Iam,
> 
> Just part my strange sense of humor and part food for thought.


Ok that makes more sense... I just didn't get it.



major said:


> Now, if the concept of decentralizing the power plant down to the wheels warranted great advantage, shouldn't we have seen attempts to do so with the engine?


There have been attempts not just with Electric Motors but also with and ICE.

But , some of the issues were not solved in a cost effective method... so it is still like EVs a fringe area outside the main stream.

Still one example can be seen here

Or in the attached Patent Pdf.



major said:


> I don't want to get into a big debate about it. I just like to needle WheelMotor a bit because he came on so strong as if he had the solution. He calls me a pessimist because I relate reality. Fact is that many have tried, all have failed. But, no reason to stop trying is there? I just look at the odds and don't see a product there.


I agree there has not yet been a product that solves all the issues in a cost effective way ... but I would not go so far as to say they have failed.

Each has had strengths and weaknesses.... Current technology can deal with all the performance / physical issues ... the last major issue is the being able to do so in a cost effective way... this might very well continue to be a issue for some time to come ... or it might be solved the same way we put a man on the moon... by spending money like water any number of ways to force a solution faster than market forces on their own would do so.

The inherent advantages of the wheel motor system will continue to pull toward it... will it take another 5 years or 50 years to see it available like a centralized power train system is... don't know... but I do still see it as an eventuality.


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

IamIan said:


> .... or it might be solved the same way we put a man on the moon....


You know.....that moon buggy was an EV with wheel motors


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## IamIan (Mar 29, 2009)

major said:


> You know.....that moon buggy was an EV with wheel motors


Haha... good one.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

major said:


> You know.....that moon buggy was an EV with wheel motors


A NEV at best


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

JRP3 said:


> A NEV at best


Heck of a neighborhood


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## IamIan (Mar 29, 2009)

JRP3 said:


> A NEV at best


In that neighborhood ... the closest gas station is so far away ... even with a full tank of gas you have to coast 99% of the trip.


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## _GonZo_ (Mar 23, 2009)

Very nice post to read.

I just come out with a design that can fullfit more less all requirements of WhellMotor.

Can fit a lot of cars, on the rear wheels with drum brakes.
Sorry not for the cars with disc brakes because the break caliper takes the espace required for the motor.

The only modification in the design in order to be installed on diferent cars models and makes is the bracet/s and obiously the holes for the wheel 4/5/6
You can start making one tailored for 15" rims which I think is the most used, and expand production other rim sizes.

Actually this sistem can fit very well on clasic cars because lots of them have drum brakes even on front wheels.

I have made the calclations in order to get around 15Kw per motor so 30Kw in total for the car and with a 200V to 300V the motor should weight around 6 to 8Kg that I do not think that will cause big problem on unsprung weight if you install light aluminium rims.

The only modification to the car base will be an extended axel length of 16 to 20mm. so less than 1cm. on each side.

One more point it is not an outrunner motor is an inrunner.

I have made a quick drawing of the idea so you can understand it better.
Now let me see if I can find how to upload it to the forum.

Hope you like it.


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## _GonZo_ (Mar 23, 2009)

Sorry Now I just found how to upload the file.


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## lou-ace (Jul 21, 2009)

WheelMotor said:


> Hi,
> 
> I have a factory in Cairo Egypt and want to produce affordable brush-less permanent magnet in wheel electric motors.
> 
> ...


These have been used in model airplanes for years now. I'm excited to see that someone is finally seeing the application for our use here. I think it is the future please do continue to update us


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

If you read through the thread you'll see the update is that it's not happening, as some of us predicted.


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## WheelMotor (Sep 16, 2008)

*not quite*



JRP3 said:


> If you read through the thread you'll see the update is that it's not happening, as some of us predicted.


The reason why it did not happened so far is :

1)The unsprung weight. Everybody who tries get stuck at this problem. The solution is to put a simple electric motor inside with 2 cardans to the wheels. Result: neglectable friction losses and a conventional, well understood manufacturing and fine tuning.
Making a lightweight electric motor of about 15KW that fits in a wheel is not yet possible and for sure beond the reach of this DIY forum.

2)Dirt and moist entering the EWheel motor. Easier to solve, but not to be underestimated in view of longevity. 

However, in some limited applications Wheel Motors as an after market fit to an existing car might be an option, in countries that allow that. Nor central Europe, nor Egypt, countries where I am, have any chance for commercial application in after market sales for normal private cars.

Think also: Why are the guys that are developing the Chevy Volt not using Wheelmotors ? Why are nor the Mitsubishi I Miev or the Nissan Leaf equiped with Wheelmotors ?? For the same reasons !

I hope this answers the question "why it's not happening, as some of us predicted."


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

All you've done is laid out some of the problems with wheel motors that some of us were quite aware of from the beginning, and why we predicted this project would not come into existence as originally planned. I was not asking a question as to why this didn't happen, I was pointing out that it didn't happen, just as predicted. Wheel motors are not a practical solution for most EV's at this time.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

May I remind you of this?



WheelMotor said:


> Major,
> 
> you are a pessimist . Within a few months I will be back here with a video of a prototype installed in a car. Than we speak again !


You thought you could do an affordable wheel motor, (title of the thread), for around $1500, and some of us disagreed. We happened to be correct.


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## WheelMotor (Sep 16, 2008)

*Still possible*



JRP3 said:


> May I remind you of this?
> 
> 
> 
> You thought you could do an affordable wheel motor, (title of the thread), for around $1500, and some of us disagreed. We happened to be correct.


Hey, JRP3 ... what are you ??? A preacher ?

The question was (with hind sight) not "could a wheel motor be made for 1500$", but "was there a commercial application for this motor?"

So far I had contact with 1 potential commercial vendor, but cooperation happened to be very very difficult. So it broke of.

As of now, still commercialization is possible. As I said before in this thread, I will not build a Wheelmotor, just to show that it's possible, because that would be like reinventing boiled water, isn't it ?

And I will not spend thousands of dollars like PML just to show a non commercial prototype and than go bust. Don't forget that a lot of people have shown the PML wheelmotor on a car (example Volvo and Ford and their own Mini) but so far I have seen all the majors opting for the classic inside electric motors. 

So you are right JRP3: No prove of cheap Wheelmotors made by me, if I can't find somebody who might be interested to buy them.

Your next reply might be: Who will buy what does not exist yet?
My answer might be: This potential client has just to prove me how solid he is and convince me of his potential. Than he has to "gamble" 1500$ on a prototype. If he can't afford this to prove his commitment let him than ask prices to prototype such a motor in the USA or Europe and than we speak again. 1500$ is really peanuts in this context I think.


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## IamIan (Mar 29, 2009)

Carnut1420 said:


> Will these motors be geared?
> I would be interested in looking at a 10kw continuous motor for a 17" automotive rim.


Buying a house will be cheaper.

I love the idea ... but the issues involved can not yet be solved inexpensively.

But if you want to spend Tesla like amounts of money for less performance ... go ahead.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

He won't be spending anything since these motors don't exist. Besides I think he's a spam bot.


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## WheelMotor (Sep 16, 2008)

JRP3 said:


> He won't be spending anything since these motors don't exist. Besides I think he's a spam bot.


Thinking is free !


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## Avicenna (Mar 24, 2010)

WheelMotor said:


> Thinking is free !


Just want to let you know what you were trying to do is possible, but current prototype cost more than USD 6000... So, USD 1500 per unit for production is perhaps possible. Someone already build a pair and is currently testing the 10 kW In-Wheel Motor on a real car in front of me as I am typing this. That's all I can say because if I tell you the details, somebody will kill me or sue me for millions of dollars in court. Confidential matter until the patent application is filed in several countries.

Just wait for the announcement soon.


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## Harrield (Dec 3, 2008)

turn the disk brakes insideout on inbord side of wm disk floting on cooling fins calipers on axel will work better then in midel of wm larger diameter stops beter then small right ?


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## Segellion (Jun 6, 2010)

*not sarcastic*

Things to do:
-Back to the Drawing Board-


1. Invent new small motor with equal power and torque as large motor. ( Possibly use super-conductive materials?)

2. Invent smaller and lighter structural materials, so that it can afford to be smaller and will not bend or break under wheel stress.

3. Establish disc breaks that are independent of the motor system.


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## tarek (Aug 31, 2010)

Does anyone know where to actually purchase some in-wheel motors? Seems like a million leads...none are solid. Thanks for your help.


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## DougL (Sep 7, 2010)

tarek said:


> Does anyone know where to actually purchase some in-wheel motors? Seems like a million leads...none are solid. Thanks for your help.


I am a newbie at this, but this is what I have found in the last few days. No idea if any of this is any good. Whatever you find let me know.
http://www.ev-propulsion.com/motorcycle-hub-motors.html
http://www.printedmotorworks.com/in-wheel-motors/
http://www.alibaba.com/showroom/hub-motor.html
http://www.electricmotorsport.com/store/ems_ev_parts_motors_evthub.php
http://www.alibaba.com/product-gs/235149755/Brushless_Dc_Electric_Car_Hub_Motor.html
http://www.ngmcorp.com/Products.htm
http://www.proteanelectric.com/home.aspx
http://www.zapworld.com/zap-electric-truck-wheel-motor
No idea on costs, type of controllers or specs, just gathering things now.
Let’s keep in touch.
Doug


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## tarek (Aug 31, 2010)

DougL said:


> I am a newbie at this, but this is what I have found in the last few days. No idea if any of this is any good. Whatever you find let me know.
> http://www.ev-propulsion.com/motorcycle-hub-motors.html
> http://www.printedmotorworks.com/in-wheel-motors/
> http://www.alibaba.com/showroom/hub-motor.html
> ...


Thanks Doug. I will look into these further and will keep you posted. Let me know if you find any more info. Thanks.


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## karlos (Jun 30, 2008)

Avicenna said:


> Just want to let you know what you were trying to do is possible, but current prototype cost more than USD 6000... So, USD 1500 per unit for production is perhaps possible. Someone already build a pair and is currently testing the 10 kW In-Wheel Motor on a real car in front of me as I am typing this. That's all I can say because if I tell you the details, somebody will kill me or sue me for millions of dollars in court. Confidential matter until the patent application is filed in several countries.
> 
> Just wait for the announcement soon.


Can we expect that "announcement" any time soon?


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## esoneson (Sep 1, 2008)

Date of the following quote: March 24, 2010



Avicenna said:


> Just want to let you know what you were trying to do is possible, but current prototype cost more than USD 6000... So, USD 1500 per unit for production is perhaps possible. Someone already build a pair and is currently testing the 10 kW In-Wheel Motor on a real car in front of me as I am typing this. That's all I can say because if I tell you the details, somebody will kill me or sue me for millions of dollars in court. Confidential matter until the patent application is filed in several countries.
> 
> Just wait for the announcement soon.


Almost 6 months is more than enough time to file all the patents covering what you are witnessing. So, where's the beef? Everybody wants to know.


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## sunworksco (Sep 8, 2008)

In-wheel motors work great for scooters and bicycles but not on cars.
Too much jack-hammering from the weight.
Regards,
John


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## markcycle (Nov 5, 2008)

On going development work
This assembly has been in a Miata moves the car fine, work continues
I surprised after reading all 12 pages no one found this video






Mark


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

markcycle said:


> On going development work
> This assembly has been in a Miata moves the car fine, work continues
> I surprised after reading all 12 pages no one found this video
> 
> ...


Hi Mark,

Where's the relevance to the thread topic? Do you intend to mount those motors in the wheels?

Regards,

major


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## markcycle (Nov 5, 2008)

major said:


> Hi Mark,
> 
> Where's the relevance to the thread topic? Do you intend to mount those motors in the wheels?
> 
> ...


If being direct drive and directly connected to the rim Via a shaft isn't a wheel motor then I'll delete my reply. All we did was offset the motor to eliminate unsprung weight, otherwise it retains all the attributes of a wheel motor. By your definition, does the motor have to be unsprung weight to be a wheel motor? How wide of a spacer can I use between the rim and motor before you no longer call it a wheel motor?

Mark


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

I think if it's not part of the wheel and unsprung weight it's not a wheel motor. It may be a direct drive setup but it's not under all the same demands of an in wheel motor.


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

Hi Mark,

I don't have a universal definition of "wheel motor" or "motor-in-wheel" or "in wheel motor" (BTW, the title to this thread) which is universally accepted. But I have been involved in the electric vehicle motor business for over three decades and have seen dozens of these things come and go. So, like just about everything you see on this site, the following is just opinion.



markcycle said:


> If being direct drive and directly connected to the rim Via a shaft isn't a wheel motor then I'll delete my reply.


No need to delete your post. In fact, I don't like it when folks do such. Unless it is an offensive type of thing.

"Direct drive" implies that the motor is coupled to the wheel or wheels directly without a variable ratio reducer (shifting transmission). "Directly connected to the rim via a shaft" does not necessarily qualify it as a wheel motor, in fact, having a shaft and a remotely mounted motor disqualifies it, especially when the motor is no longer in the same vicinity as the wheel, meaning inboard such as appears to be the case with your assembly.



> All we did was offset the motor to eliminate unstrung weight, otherwise it retains all the attributes of a wheel motor.


The primary attribute of a wheel motor is that the motor is in the wheel. Motors which are attached directly to the wheel but not inside the wheel however move with the wheel are called hub motors and sometimes viewed as a subclass of wheel motors. Remotely mounted motors connected to the wheel with shafts, belts or chains are not considered wheel motors.



> By your definition, does the motor have to be unstrung weight to be a wheel motor?


Yes, it has to "be part of" the wheel. In other words, move with the wheel.



> How wide of a spacer can I use between the rim and motor before you no longer call it a wheel motor?


The spacer is irrelevant. I think the motor and wheel must function as a single assembly fixed in position on the vehicle such that they move together. The most common configuration of the wheel motor has the motor inside the wheel, so a negative spacer, I guess. Even the hub styles rarely have spacers. But surely, a motor remotely mounted inside the vehicle connected to the wheel with a shaft is not a wheel motor.

Regards,

major


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Funny thing is that Mark's motor IS a wheel motor that he developed to replace the rear wheel in a motorcycle so I'm not sure why he's confused. Actually that's probably exactly where the confusion comes from. When you take it out of the wheel it's no longer a wheel motor


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## karlos (Jun 30, 2008)

Interesting debate and some points well made!
Maybe the relevance to the thread is that in the absence of an accessibility priced real (proven in practice) wheel motor, what Mark is suggesting is the next best thing regarding unsprung weight, direct drive, weight savings (no diff), affordability etc. 
As Mark knows and as has been discussed in other threads, I have considered this an attractive alternative myself although the need (2WD) to use two controllers (for AC, or is there a way around this?) starts to lesson the advantages of using a single motor through a diff.
Maybe there is a thread directly relating to direct driving the wheel via a shaft (no diff, no reduction gearing)? Of course, direct driving with (no reduction) requires a motor with a high torque/power ratio which wheel/hub motors are intentionally designed for.
I'm happy to be corrected should any of my assumptions have strayed from reality or the results of experience.


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## markcycle (Nov 5, 2008)

JRP3 said:


> Funny thing is that Mark's motor IS a wheel motor that he developed to replace the rear wheel in a motorcycle so I'm not sure why he's confused. Actually that's probably exactly where the confusion comes from. When you take it out of the wheel it's no longer a wheel motor


Ok I stand corrected its direct drive but certainly not an In wheel motor so except to suggest its a alternative to an in wheel motor its not relevant to the thread. I guess in my mind there is a difference between a wheel motor a motor connected directly to the wheel and a In wheel motor. 

Mark


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

WheelMotor said:


> Major,
> 
> you are a pessimist . Within a few months I will be back here with a video of a prototype installed in a car.


Hey Mr. WheelMotor,

It has been 2 years now since you said this. How is your prototype coming along? Got that video?

The pessimist,

major


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

That's just mean


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## WheelMotor (Sep 16, 2008)

I was a bit early in that time ... a few years ago. Beyond a few retail clients I got no reaction. But in the meanwhile, a few years later, the interest seams to grow. However I am no longer in Egypt and have lost that opportunity for cheap production.
If you want contact for wholesale quantities in China you can PM me and I will connect you.


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

WheelMotor said:


> I was a bit early in that time ... a few years ago. Beyond a few retail clients I got no reaction. But in the meanwhile, a few years later, the interest seams to grow. However I am no longer in Egypt and have lost that opportunity for cheap production.
> If you want contact for wholesale quantities in China you can PM me and I will connect you.





WheelMotor said:


> Major,
> 
> you are a pessimist . Within a few months I will be back here with a video of a prototype installed in a car. Than we speak again !


So now it is over 3 years. And you say you have a Chinese product. Egyptian, Chinese, who cares? Show us what you got for a road worthy EV car.

major, the pessimist


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## Ziggythewiz (May 16, 2010)

He doesn't have the production facilities for a one off prototype, but if you have the capital, he can have a full assembly line in no time.


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## aj2k3 (Dec 29, 2011)

I'd love to just see a quick and dirty prototype. Perhaps if a facility can't be created or the means not available, we could possibly create a prototype with people here? There are a lot of us, and each of us brings something unique to the table.

@ WheelMotor, I encourage your efforts and look forward to hearing more.


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## DJBecker (Nov 3, 2010)

aj2k3 said:


> I'd love to just see a quick and dirty prototype. Perhaps if a facility can't be created or the means not available, we could possibly create a prototype with people here? There are a lot of us, and each of us brings something unique to the table.


People with the capability to build a prototype also know that unsprung weight is a major issue. Unless you have a breakthrough that fixes that problem, you won't make progress.

A little research will tell you that beyond just dealing with ride and suspension issues, shock is a major issue. Microcracks that have little effect on physical strength have a major negative effect on magnetic and electrical properties. The resulting field concentration results in localized heating, which encourages crack propagation.

You often hear "progress is made by people that haven't heard it can't be done". A more accurate phrase is "progress is made by people that understand why it can't be done the way that was tried before".


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## yosemitesamiam (Feb 7, 2012)

I registered to these forums so that I could "LOL" at the last over 3 years of posts in this thread. 
Great read here...really looking forward to gaining the necessary knowledge for my first conversion. 

Sam


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## DrOof (Feb 11, 2012)

http://www.proteanelectric.com/?page_id=46&cat=52

Any updates on this? They seem to have it fitted to a variety of working prototypes. Is there a price for these things? I noticed a quote of 35k a piece, which is a bit out of budget, but still. A few years have passed.


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## WheelMotor (Sep 16, 2008)

Three and a half year have past ...


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

And..........?


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## WheelMotor (Sep 16, 2008)

I did not see any affordable retro fit WM kit appear so far. If I am wrong please post here the offers. 
A lot has changed in my live in the past years. I will become father again in the next 14 days ...
I am seriously considering to give the WM project an other shot in the coming weeks. Will keep you updated.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Actually that was the point that some of us tried to make, that "In Wheel Motor...affordable", was not going to happen.


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## WheelMotor (Sep 16, 2008)

These days I am breaking my head about the max frequency of core material of the coils. 
Very interesting reading here.


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## WheelMotor (Sep 16, 2008)

*never say never*

Yesterday I made a microscopic first step in my second attempt to develop a commercially available Wheelmotor. I bought 1 new bigger rim + tire for my 1996 Jaguar XJ6 X300. It is the Jag with the newer rear suspension, with the brake discs outside. This car has the standard suspension like on any other modern car. 
3.5 years after I started this thread, I have more time and I want to try an other approach. I think that we can do here something that big constructors can't. It is not my intention to present here a complete solution with 3 years garanty . A Wheelmotor has inherent limitations. For example it might break down if you drive over a pothole. Probably a hub-motor is not even the best solution for an electric vehicle. But under sertain conditions it might be attractive for a DIYer to retrofit an existing car with 2 hub-motors, so that an ordinary gas guzzler can be converted to a hybrid or the hub-motor might be used as an electric turbo. 
And because I haven't seen a lot of custom made affordable Wheelmotors anywhere else, I want to (slowly) give it a shot. 
A retrofit like the one proposed HERE is not possible because it would imply that your wheel goes some 10 cm outside of the wheel arch. 
I would like a few characteristics to be part of my Wheelmotor design.
1) It must be retrofitable to any existing car and invisible (from the outside)
2) It must be cheap to be replicated so that I can produce it "affordable" in a low labor country.
I might develop it here online. We could do it open source, with this difference, that I will actually make the prototype here with pictures. Input from somebody who has a simulation software is very welcome.


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## WheelMotor (Sep 16, 2008)

*Ball Bearings*

The biggest problem to overcome happens not te be electric, controler, magnetic, etc but something where nobody in the OS wheelmotor thread spoke about ...
Bearings !
Because of the very small air gap and the fact that the disk brake has to remain in place, the bearings have to be very large in bore and of course as narrow as possible. Something like 16 inch outside diameter and only 1/2 an inch wide. Like these. I have not asked their price, what might also be a problem, beside the fact that their max RPM is only 125. This corresponds with only about 14 Km/h. Not a speed I like to drive on. 
Bearings, a low tech problem that in the real world might be a major obstacle. Money might buy a solution here, but if I want to stay on the 1500$ side of live, it gets complicated.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Some might say impossible


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## ruckus (Apr 15, 2009)

Just curious, has anybody tried using 4 of the bigger Chinese hub motors?

Yes, yes, I know, but I mean actually TRIED it.

The specs list up to 250v and 450A. Max torque of 380NM. So 4 would make 1500NM! For real?

http://www.alibaba.com/product-gs/413397031/KG315_high_power_brushless_DC_hub.html

Its funny reading about hub motors that everybody (out on the net) makes such a big deal about the unsprung weight like it would make you go out of control and crash or not be able to steer or something. Obviously they never picked up a truck axle...  75lbs is nothing. Plus, think of the center of gravity and crazy stability it would create.

Just wondering.


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## WheelMotor (Sep 16, 2008)

*How to try ?*



ruckus said:


> Just curious, has anybody tried using 4 of the bigger Chinese hub motors?
> 
> Yes, yes, I know, but I mean actually TRIED it.
> 
> ...


Ruckus did you asked the price ?
I would like to try one of them, if the motors are affordable and ... if someone can explain me how to fit a 9 Cm thick pancake motor between the disc brake and the rim, without my wheels sticking 9 Cm (some 3.5 inch) out of the body of my car ???


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Get a rim with a different offset, probably a larger diameter as well.


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## ruckus (Apr 15, 2009)

JRP3 said:


> Get a rim with a different offset, probably a larger diameter as well.


Right on the money.

Most hub motors already have brakes on them so you would be removing yours. Just a guess, but it may require a custom or modified knuckle assembly.

Cost? Well, I am sure you could get some smaller ones cheaper, but this is 1500NM! That is like siamese warp 11's which would set you back $10,000 with controllers.

More significantly though, is the amount of space it frees up for more batteries.  Especially once you throw away the tranny and drive lines... They are rated up to 4000lb vehicle.

It also creates redundancy. You might could drive with 3 or 2 working motors.

So nobody has actually tried it then?


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## WheelMotor (Sep 16, 2008)

It should be interesting to contact these Chinese WM manufacturers to ask them if they can show more details and video's of a car that is equipped with their hub-motors. And also before and after pictures. Best of a common car of course like for example a Ford Focus or so. 
Ruckus, please could you do this ?

I found this interesting picture that sets my imagination alight ! About the rim offset problem.








It comes from this website: Riding on the Darkside


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## ruckus (Apr 15, 2009)

Well, that's one way to go.. the heavy way. Being that a wheel motor adds weight to the wheel assembly, I would tend to go with something light like aluminum. You can get most any bolt pattern in a bunch of offsets, so there is absolutely no need to break out the torch.


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## WheelMotor (Sep 16, 2008)

*back on track*

The bearing problem is solved ! Developing an application is a bumpy road.
I made also big progression in making the WM more universally compatible. It should fit under a wide variety of cars, from a Chevrolet Malibu to a Volkswagen Golf, but also under my old jaguar. For US Pick up trucks however a heavily modified version might be needed. Not to mention that WheelMotors and "Off The Road" or any road that is not Pool-table smooth, will never be compatible.
I don't want to offer a motor that needs a "Handy Man Genius" to modify your car. It should be more or less "Plug and Play".
Sorry for the pessimists !


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

> Not to mention that WheelMotors and "Off The Road" or any road that is not Pool-table smooth, will never be compatible.


So what you are saying is it's not compatible with roads in the real world. If it can't handle a pot hole or bump in the road it's not really practical.


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## WheelMotor (Sep 16, 2008)

*uffff*



JRP3 said:


> So what you are saying is it's not compatible with roads in the real world. If it can't handle a pot hole or bump in the road it's not really practical.


Thanks JRP3 that was really an original and constructive comment.

Putting the motor INSIDE the car (behind the suspension) is definitively better. 

And than after a long pause ...

But for those who are interested in wheelmotors, I want to give it a shot.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Maybe I'm not understanding you but you seem to have stated that you can't make a wheel motor that can survive normal driving conditions. If that's true then why waste your time on a product that can't be used? If that's not what you meant then your statement that I quoted doesn't make sense.


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## WheelMotor (Sep 16, 2008)

*be possitive please*

The reason why the major manufacturers are not going for wheelmotors is imho (like I stated a few years ago in this threat already) the inherent vulnerability of the WM. But it is not because something has shortcomings, it might under certain circumstances interesting and usefull. On (mostly) perfect Central European roads it might work. And I have ideas that I want to test in reality, that make the WM very robust. Than still rest the problem of retrofitting that extra weight to the suspension. 

I am not preaching the truth here ! This is after all a *DY* electric car forum.

The OS attempt to make a WM had 1 big handicap and that was that nobody really has put the money on the table and build it, along the way. In stead of being a chat-club, I am at least doing it.

What is the next reply ? Again criticism ?


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

I'm just trying to be a realist, not a cheer leader. Obviously others have tried and failed to make an affordable wheel motor for cars, they have been successful in bicycles and at least one motorcycle, though I don't know what the long term durability has been.


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## ruckus (Apr 15, 2009)

I am a bit confused. 

Why does everyone assume the motors will fail due to vibration, etc?

Mining industry uses lots of electric motors. How about an electric impact wrench? Doesn't that see constant terrible vibration? Drills, sanders?

The motors will have to be completely sealed against water. No biggy. Industry already has a standard for this called TENV (totally enclosed non-ventilated). They also have an "explosion-proof" classification so the motors can be used in an explosive environment like a coal mine. These motors are absolutely sealed 100%.

2 of the motors I linked should easily drive most cars. Until they actually are tried and fail, the naysayers are just like the petroleum folks who say electric cars just can't work. It just takes someone willing to pony up the cash for an experiment. A beta tester... 

Anyone?


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## WheelMotor (Sep 16, 2008)

*Verry difficult, but easy is no fun !*

No worries Ruckus, I will show here in some months a working prototype.

The huge challenge, for me, is to make the wheel motor: 
1) Easily adaptable to most cars. In this respect the motors that you show us Ruckus are far from fitable.
2) Affordable. No comment here necessary I think.

Ruckus, you seam to be informed about sealing rings. Nice. It keeps me busy these days. 
I am searching a sealing ring with an inner bore of about 200mm and as narrow as possible. Less than a 10mm. (less than 0,4 inch) So my shaft is 200mm. Best with a shaft ring to protect the seal from corrosion on the shaft. Rotation RPM 3500 !!! 










As you might find out with a simple item like a sealing ring, puzzling a WM together with affordable parts is a huge challenge !


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Ruckus, the question is not can a wheel motor be designed, it's can one be designed with the proper specs at a reasonable price. Obviously it's not as simple as just buying one and bolting it in place since a number of companies have put a lot of work into building wheel motors and not one of them has yet been marketable.


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## ruckus (Apr 15, 2009)

JRP3 said:


> Ruckus, the question is not can a wheel motor be designed, it's can one be designed with the proper specs at a reasonable price. Obviously it's not as simple as just buying one and bolting it in place since a number of companies have put a lot of work into building wheel motors and not one of them has yet been marketable.


Not sure what you mean by "marketable" I linked you to wheel motors that are for sale right now. What is not "marketable" about that? It takes 2 to make a market. A producer AND a consumer. I have yet to hear that these motors "failed" to perform. I will give them fair try when a customer requests them. Until then, my own money is building an uper-duper super car using a liquid-cooled BLDC motor at 640vdc.

Cheers


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

There is no data showing how those motors will hold up in a car, at least not that I've seen. Just because a product is for sale doesn't mean it will work in any application.


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## ruckus (Apr 15, 2009)

JRP3 said:


> There is no data showing how those motors will hold up in a car, at least not that I've seen. Just because a product is for sale doesn't mean it will work in any application.


Yes, and there is NO DATA showing how electric cars will "hold up". So don't buy that Leaf or Volt or Tesla, just keep buying gas gas gas gas gas gas.......

And certainly don't convert your own. What a project of the "unknown"..


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

You're being a bit ridiculous, and apparently you aren't aware of all the data showing exactly how well EV's do hold up in the real world. For example there is this thing called the RAV4EV that's been around for 10 years or so, not to mention the conversions that have been around even longer. 
All you've done is linked to a motor that some company will sell you, and you've made the assumption that it's going to be a great wheel motor for a car. You really think it's that easy? Why not buy it and show how great it is, since it would be a huge breakthrough with possible millions of dollars in profits.
I like the description:


> Usage: Boat, Car, Electric Bicycle, Fan,


Yes a 70lb motor for a fan or bicycle.


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## lowcarbon-idea (Sep 2, 2010)

I think it is hard to controller 4 wheels in one car, cause the speed of them are not the same.


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## WheelMotor (Sep 16, 2008)

*step by step*



lowcarbon-idea said:


> I think it is hard to controller 4 wheels in one car, cause the speed of them are not the same.


From an electrical BLDC point of view, we will need a controller per wheel. For the car we need also a general controller that translate the position of the throttle paddle to each BLDC controller input.
The fact that we can control each wheel individually is just nice, because it mimics the function of a Limited Slip diff and traction control systems.
However ... the interaction with the ABS is an other cloud on the horizon.

I found a very comprehensive superb guide to Rotatary Shaft Seals
It is from PARKER HANNIFIN and they have what we need and I hope we can afford it.


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## WheelMotor (Sep 16, 2008)

*In Wheel Motor ... still affordable ... so far.*

On track, so far ! Waiting for arrival of ordered bearings. They are within the price range. Also waiting for reply of several suppliers of high speed rotary ring seals. It is a work of patience.


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## _GonZo_ (Mar 23, 2009)

http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showpost.php?p=231128&postcount=447


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## ruckus (Apr 15, 2009)

_GonZo_ said:


> http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showpost.php?p=231128&postcount=447


Awesome pics. but please tell more. The issue as I see it is that most cars have a MALE spindle on which goes the rotor. The wheel motors I see available all have Male shafts protruding inward. How do you mate male and male?

In your last photo it looks as if you have modified some things and found a resolution to this problem.

Will you 1)reveal the make and model of the wheel motor? and 2) explain how you actually got it mounted?

This is the problem I am grappling with..


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## dreamer (Feb 28, 2009)

ruckus said:


> Just curious, has anybody tried using 4 of the bigger Chinese hub motors?
> 
> Yes, yes, I know, but I mean actually TRIED it.
> 
> ...


Something doesn't jibe in that Alibaba ad. You can't have all those specs -- volts, amps, torque -- at the same time and still have the max power rating of 20kw, which is only 26hp.


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## ruckus (Apr 15, 2009)

dreamer said:


> Something doesn't jibe in that Alibaba ad. You can't have all those specs -- volts, amps, torque -- at the same time and still have the max power rating of 20kw, which is only 26hp.


Read between the lines... Volts and amps are variables. So high volts are coupled with low amps and high amps are coupled with low volts. 

The only absolute (which could be completely non-true) is the torque figure and what they list (if true) is pretty awesome. 26hp per wheel is over 100hp continuous. Enough for most cars to clip right along..


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## dreamer (Feb 28, 2009)

What makes you think the 100hp is continuous and not max ?

Max torque at the wheels of 1500nm is not very much. Between transmission and diff, an ICE torque gets multiplied 12 to 15 times getting to the wheels. So 1500nm (1100ft-lbs) at the ground is like an ICE putting less than 100ft-lb torque to the transmission. That's not a performance vehicle.


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## WheelMotor (Sep 16, 2008)

*pls more info*



_GonZo_ said:


> http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showpost.php?p=231128&postcount=447


Very interesting GonZo. But your original post on the OS thread is from more than a year ago. The car must be driving now. Can you pls give the link to the original website ?

My approach is different. I don't think that most people are prepared to put the grinder in their back suspension. So I try to go for an easier fit  .


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## WheelMotor (Sep 16, 2008)

Hey GonZo, I found the website !
*"The process of midification from gas car to electric car."*
(the link does not seam to work.  Admin, is it allowed to link to an other EV forum? )


The original info is from January 2009, no tests after installing.


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## ruckus (Apr 15, 2009)

AH-HA! Just as I suspected.. That pic is very valuable because it clearly shows how they dealt with going from a male spindle to a female spindle.

Problem is, that type of approach will only work on cheap beam axle vehicles.

But it is a start..


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## WheelMotor (Sep 16, 2008)

*ruff setup*

I guess this was his first setup. He just lowered the solid rear axle to far down.









On the next picture we see a better attempt of the same man.


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## ruckus (Apr 15, 2009)

It is easy to cut off long u-bolts. No problem.

But, the machined hub adapter visible in the second version is more like I envision (but not on a beam axle car).

Do you have the website? looks like some interesting info there..


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## ruckus (Apr 15, 2009)

dreamer said:


> Max torque at the wheels of 1500nm is not very much. Between transmission and diff, an ICE torque gets multiplied 12 to 15 times getting to the wheels. So 1500nm (1100ft-lbs) at the ground is like an ICE putting less than 100ft-lb torque to the transmission. That's not a performance vehicle.


You are correct. Not a hot rod, but a drive-able car.

The thing to remember is that in an ICE you don't get max torque starting out unless you rev and stepside the clutch. So if you calculated off max that is misleading since you are only at that point a little bit in each gear. 

Also, as soon as you hit 2nd gear your torque falls in HALF and then 50% less again when you hit 3rd.

With electric wheel motor you would experience smooth and continuous torque flow near peak while accelerating. This would equal an ICE car with much higher peak numbers.


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## WheelMotor (Sep 16, 2008)

ruckus said:


> Do you have the website? looks like some interesting info there..


I found this in the forum rules. I linked before, but it was disabled. Sorry admin, will not do it again. 

*Prohibited Content* (Please read) The following are prohibited on DIY Electric Car forums: 

1) Flaming, hate speech, racial slurs or otherwise obviously offensive or trolling remarks.
2) Links posted to products for sale outside of the marketplace forums
*3) Links or attempts to bring users to another forum (relevant blogs and news are ok)*
4) Public threats of legal action or other intimidation against any person or business entity
5) Personal attacks or intentional defamation of character

The forum owners are protected by the Communications Decency Act of 1996, Section 230, stating that "No provider or user of an interactive computer service shall be treated as the publisher or speaker of any information provided by another information content provider."  

Please be respectful of all users at all times.

Thank you


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## ruckus (Apr 15, 2009)

Well that is completely lame.  I thought the point of a forum was to share information and enlighten the community. It is one thing if you were posting on every thread "hey, check this out: [email protected]"

Posting a link to information extremely relevant to the discussion at hand should be allowed and encouraged. I see folks do it on here all the time.

What is this China? We are supposed to be trapped behind the iron curtain of DIY with no links out? 

Good grief.


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## Ziggythewiz (May 16, 2010)

I've never seen anyone get in trouble for linking to a more relevant/informative site. For example, we send people to endless sphere all the time for e-bike info.


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## WheelMotor (Sep 16, 2008)

*Confused, but want to respect the rules.*



Ziggythewiz said:


> I've never seen anyone get in trouble for linking to a more relevant/informative site. For example, we send people to endless sphere all the time for e-bike info.


I may have made a mistake in putting the link in the previous post. So I thought it was removed by the admin. But if a senior member says "no prob", I will try again. I don't want to violate any forum rules. If I do, pls admin comment here when you remove the link.

The pictures from the hub motor come from HERE
The next image comes from HERE


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## ruckus (Apr 15, 2009)

Thanks, it's nice to read a forum where people collaborate and share rather than just cutting each other down.

Keep up the good work..


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

I think the hyperlink script itself may simply have failed to translate, hence the dead link. I tried opening the link and it locked up my browser (not hard to do with IE8).


The rules are generally aimed at spam bots that fill the forum with useless junk. In some rare cases we also have parts vendors that try hjacking other threads by getting into debates over what products are better. 

We ask that any direct sales pitches be restricted to the marketplace or private messages, but talking about them on your own thread like this isn't much of a problem for us.


So long story short, feel free to try reposting link.


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## ruckus (Apr 15, 2009)

The links worked in my browser (google chrome or iridium or some such..)


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

ruckus said:


> Thanks, it's nice to read a forum where people collaborate and share rather than just cutting each other down.


I guess you didn't read all of the posts


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## WheelMotor (Sep 16, 2008)

Thanks David for clarifying.


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## Ziggythewiz (May 16, 2010)

ruckus said:


> The links worked in my browser (google chrome or iridium or some such..)


original link did not look right or work in IE or FF. The later posts work fine


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## WheelMotor (Sep 16, 2008)

*good parts, but for the right price !*

Very good news from a Chinese supplier of Rotary Seals this morning !!!
They send a quote that is at a very good price. So we are still on track at the right price ! 

I am inpatient. In this stage I am only ordering parts and waiting for suppliers to quote and deliver. Because I want to make this WM at a target price, I have to order parts and adapt the design to the (slightly) different size of the available parts. Live is a compromise. 

When you want to sell ... buying is very important !


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## ruckus (Apr 15, 2009)

How did you solve the shaft-mounting issue?

Another possible problem is that cars now have antilock brakes with sensors and such so the original brakes must be retained for the system to work properly.

If the original brakes are left in place there is nothing to "push" against to make the wheel turn.

Am I thinking about this correctly?


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## WheelMotor (Sep 16, 2008)

*Yes the stator has to remain static.*



ruckus said:


> How did you solve the shaft-mounting issue?
> 
> Another possible problem is that cars now have antilock brakes with sensors and such so the original brakes must be retained for the system to work properly.
> 
> ...


Yes Ruckus, the original beakes will remain in place. I see the WM as an afterfit item. Not in the first place for people who want to make an EV as a ground up project. It can be used as such, but on my own car I like to use the WMs only on my backtires to make my car a parallel hybrid. Also it is not allowed to modify your car in Belgium in any way. The law is made by bureaucrats and is extreme and paternalizing. No way to remove the back brakes from my car, but in this case I agree. Not to mention that you have to go yearly to a technical control, where you make no chance without back breaks. As you mention, disabling the ABS would be a pity and has to be (again for safety reasons of course) definitively avoided.
In general it might be wise to keep the back brakes in place for emergency braking. Or as a backup for in case of an electrical failure, controler brake down etc. It is very premature to brainstorm about this now, but I think to make my brake peddle to switch, with the first motion of it, to Reg Braking and when pushed deeper to Friction Braking. 

Indeed the WM needs contact with the car's chassis to keep the stator in place. The rotor of the big BLDC outrunner will be surrounded by the rim and is turning, but the stator is kept in place by 3 fixation brackets that reach around the disk brake to the hub support. I will deliver the WM as one part with an 18 inch rim. So there is ample space to go around the disc. The only DIY aspect on the WM installation is finding the places to connect these support brackets to the Hub Support. This is individual for every car, but may not be to difficult. The rim bold pattern is an other variable, but I will make the WM rim hub center as a separate part that I can adapt to every make.


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## WheelMotor (Sep 16, 2008)

*cooling*

While searching around for liquid cooling, I found this:

Carnot Jet system VIDEO










When they can cool sophisticated computer servers by simply submerging them in this liquid, it will for sure be good enough to cool our BLDC stator. I want to cool, by directly submerging the coils in the liquid. Although it will tremendously intensify the complexity, the increase in max power is to tempting.


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## WheelMotor (Sep 16, 2008)

*Bearings and modeling.*

Today the big ball bearings arrived. Look at the 1 euro coin! Now it is waiting for the rotary seals. The sealing rings on the bearings are not sealing a lot, so I ordered separate additional rotary seals to keep dirt and water out of the wheel motors.










Please, I need help on the BLDC modeling (with a modeling software to optimize the electric characteristics) . In return I can make a deal to deliver for example a set of 2 wheels at a predetermined "friends price".


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## seff (Jun 13, 2012)

just to say hi to everybody =) 
going to Stuttgart tomorrow to visit http://www.engine-expo.com/
http://www.testing-expo.com/europe/
http://www.globalautomotivecomponentsandsuppliersexpo.com/ 
http://www.vehicledynamics-expo.com/
http://www.automotive-interiors-expo.com/
and two other, but somehow related expos http://www.messestuttgart.de/cms/index.php?id=127315&L=1
http://www.messestuttgart.de/cms/index.php?id=128185&L=1
any suggestion on what could be useful for this particular project are welcome. will try to prioritize suggested exhibitors and gather as much as possible for a guy from completely another planet(i.e. i am a designer not an engineer). yep, let's try not to waste this opportunity completely =)


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## WheelMotor (Sep 16, 2008)

seff said:


> just to say hi to everybody =)
> going to Stuttgart tomorrow to visit http://www.engine-expo.com/
> http://www.testing-expo.com/europe/
> http://www.globalautomotivecomponentsandsuppliersexpo.com/
> ...


Welcome here Seff. I hope you will report us what news you found on these exhibitions concerning Wheel Motors or BLDC motors in general..


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## WheelMotor (Sep 16, 2008)

*Modeling a Torque Monster !!!*

Thanks to the kind people of JMAG who granted us a trial period to test their simulation software, I could finally test the BLDC motor within the dimensional restrains of the design. 

The first results are ... encouraging. 










The motor should produce about 500Nm of torque from standstill to 1000 RPM and 70 Hp. In our case with a wheel of 255x45x18 this equals 120 Km/h. The flat curve is due to the Amps limiter. Knowing that a Lamborghini Gallardo has a Max Torque of 510 Nm ... If we could make a car with 2 times 500 Nm (for 2 wheels) ... Tire shredding !

The test is however rather ruff and has to be refined but it's a start.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

I think you are forgetting something. A Lambo, like most cars, has gearing, which multiplies torque at the wheels. You'll have a lot less wheel torque than a Lambo and most vehicles, no shredding. Two wheels with 500NM each is the same torque as a 100NM car with a 10:1 over all first gear ratio.


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## seff (Jun 13, 2012)

JRP3 said:


> I think you are forgetting something. A Lambo, like most cars, has gearing, which multiplies torque at the wheels. You'll have a lot less wheel torque than a Lambo and most vehicles, no shredding. Two wheels with 500NM each is the same torque as a 100NM car with a 10:1 over all first gear ratio.


I guess some guys are just born to say "No". 
Could you tell at least why you decided to do it here over and over again?

Do you know how to do it better?
Any constructive proposal at all?
So why bother?
Why here?

Gee


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Are you on crack? I posted relevant information. He will not have the torque of a Lambo as he claimed, not even close. If you can't handle the truth then you aren't really interested in building anything that works and just want to engage in mental masturbation. My whole point in this thread is to bring a dose of reality. I guess I should not have said anything, let him spend many hours and a lot of money building a wheel motor and then wonder why he has crap for torque. That would be helpful


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## karlos (Jun 30, 2008)

seff said:


> I guess some guys are just born to say "No".
> Could you tell at least why you decided to do it here over and over again?
> 
> Do you know how to do it better?
> ...


Hi Seff, I like your support for Wheelmotor but JRP3 is quite correct and it is good he is contributing; he has a lot of experience and you don't want to discourage contribution to a collaborative effort as Wheelmotor gives the impression of wanting.
Wheelmotor, i think what you are doing is just great and a project like yours definitely needs the enthusiasm you have. I look forward to being updated on your progress and hope you continue in your willingness to have input from others as such a project requires a wide range of skills. Do you know yet what controllers you are aiming to use or did I miss that?


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## seff (Jun 13, 2012)

JRP3 said:


> Are you on crack? I posted relevant information. He will not have the torque of a Lambo as he claimed, not even close. If you can't handle the truth then you aren't really interested in building anything that works and just want to engage in mental masturbation. My whole point in this thread is to bring a dose of reality. I guess I should not have said anything, let him spend many hours and a lot of money building a wheel motor and then wonder why he has crap for torque. That would be helpful


Don't you see, that is exactly my point. Instead of talking about the Torque curve you talk about your vision of reality(i.e. Lambo with a multiplication, mental masturbation etc.) 
If this is crap - ok, what in your opinion is not?
What do we need? 
What is real?

Or you just want to say to a WM that he needs to give up already because of the Lambo remark?

Or am I on crack?


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## WheelMotor (Sep 16, 2008)

*117 Hp in simulation !*

Waw, nice sudden controversy. Love that ! 
Seff, thanks for your support, I am a positive person too. 

Although I usually don't like JRP3's pessimistic comments, this time he is of course right. I forgot the torque multiplication because of the gearing.

I did nothing else than optimizing, since my last post. And there is progress !!
Nope we will not yet beat the Lambo, but we have now a nice 117 Hp 87 Kw and strong 839 Nm from 0 to 120 km/h. With 2 such WM's we will have a nice 1678 NM. And that is already half the pulling power of the Lambo at 3000 RPM. Because the Lambo motor gives less torque at lower RPM. And the Lambo has to change gears, hahaha. 










A bit more serious now. If we can make an affordable wheel motor that you can simply bolt on your car and add 200 Hp to an existing IC engine car, my project is a great success. There are a lot of real world parameters that have to be kept in mind, just two:
I don't want to change anything on the car. (very big limitation)
Torque numbers are limited by realistic battery power, dimensions, weight and cost.
My aim is not to produce the biggest motor, but the most efficient and as a second parameter torque. The missing gearbox is a handicap in "good for promotion" performance, but it eliminates about 25% loss too. And this during acceleration, but also during regenerative braking. 

I read a very interesting relevant article about Torque in cars on ElectricVehicleNews.Com In the article they speak about this article about the Audi e-tron.

Karlo, thanks for your encouraging words. The controller is not what I am focusing on, but it will need our attention later on indeed. I have not seen yet a controler that has the required Volt/Amp specs that we need. (And that I can afford)


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

seff said:


> Don't you see, that is exactly my point. Instead of talking about the Torque curve you talk about your vision of reality(i.e. Lambo with a multiplication, mental masturbation etc.)
> If this is crap - ok, what in your opinion is not?
> What do we need?
> What is real?
> ...


I think so since what I posted is not my vision of reality, it is reality. I've never said WM should give up, but I have pointed out real obstacles that must be dealt with. I actually hope he succeeds, though I think it unlikely, but he still has to overcome the issues that I point out. There is a reason why no one has come to market with an affordable wheel motor for a car. The best wheel motor I'm aware of is Marks' Enertrac, which is for motorcycles less than 400lbs and costs $1200 without a controller. http://www.enertrac.net/index.php It's 10kwh continuous and 30kw peak. They have a dual version which is basically two motors in one, and probably twice as expensive. At one point he was working on using two motors mounted in board, not in the wheel, to drive a Miata. Haven't seen any updates on that project.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

*Re: 117 Hp in simulation !*



WheelMotor said:


> I read a very interesting relevant article about Torque in cars on ElectricVehicleNews.Com In the article they speak about this article about the Audi e-tron.


I hope you read this part:


> This, of course, is exactly why Mercedes and Audi have *added reduction gearboxes* to the *in-board wheel motors* in their AWD EV Sports cars. It also has alot to do with why Audi thought they could get away with a bit of BS of there own when they inflated a total of 682 Nm (501.5 ft/lb) across all four motor shafts into 4500 Nm (3319 ft/lb) at the press release. Audi ignored accepted auto industry standards and quoted torque for the e-tron at the wheels, which is after the torque multiplication of the reduction gearboxes.


Audi quoted torque after gearing multiplication, and they are not actually using wheel motors.


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## CrazyAl (May 9, 2011)

Like the idea of a hub motor as it frees up a lot of space, but out of interest, how is the proposed hub motor getting cooled?


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

JRP3 said:


> I've never said WM should give up,


I'll say it  Mr. WheelMotor's objective will not be achieved here.



WheelMotor said:


>


And these two charts are contradictory.



WheelMotor said:


> Major,
> 
> you are a pessimist . Within a few months I will be back here with a video of a prototype installed in a car. Than we speak again !


Still waiting, going on 4 years 

major (the pessimist)


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## WheelMotor (Sep 16, 2008)

*Statler and Waldorf from the Muppet-Show !*

O o o ... My good old friends Major and JRP3 .... 










We say in Belgium: "Who does nothing, does nothing wrong"


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

We are both younger than that, and have more hair


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## WheelMotor (Sep 16, 2008)

*magnet price explosion*

When I said in 2008 that I could make this WM for 1500$ I forgot to look in my crystal boll, otherwise I had invested all my money in Neodyum. In which case I had multiplied my wealth with *10 !!!!!*
While we are asking quotes for the more than 50 magnets we need in 1 motor, I am smashed with prices close to 1000$ only for the magnets !!! While in 2008 I got prices of a few 100 $... pffff 








From this website: http://www.magnet-shop.net/Aktuelle-Preisentwicklung:_:340.html

Other countries used to mine these raw materials. Only approx. 1/3 of the worldwide deposit is in China. But years ago, China flooded the world market with unbeatably cheap rare earth metals and magnets, which made it economically unviable for most mines and magnet producers outside of China to stay in the business. As a consequence, the whole world relied on supplies from China.
As the prices started to explode in 2011 and the fatal dependence was recognized, some of those mines started producing again. However, the know-how for the elaborate and complicated beneficiation of raw materials has been lost. Also, since a mine can't start operations from one day to the other, observers don't see realistic alternatives to Chinese companies before the end of 2012. Also, the demand for neodymium magnets continues to increase worldwide. From this website: http://www.supermagnete.be/eng/faq/price


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## CrazyAl (May 9, 2011)

*Re: magnet price explosion*



WheelMotor said:


> When I said in 2008 that I could make this WM for 1500$ I forgot to look in my crystal boll, otherwise I had invested all my money in Neodyum. In which case I had multiplied my wealth with *10 !!!!!*
> While we are asking quotes for the more than 50 magnets we need in 1 motor, I am smashed with prices close to 1000$ only for the magnets !!! While in 2008 I got prices of a few 100 $... pffff
> 
> 
> ...


Interessant. Dysprosium ist mehr teuer. Und was ist die preis in die Zukunft?

Interesting. Dysprosium is much more expensive. What's the price in the future?


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

China imposed some export restrictions on "rare earth" products recently. I'm guessing that has something to do with it.

Whats silly is most of those materials are available in quantity in the western hemesphere, but for political and economic reasons, they were not being mined. If prices stay high that could change but not anytime soon.

......though I realize that doesn't really help your situation


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## WheelMotor (Sep 16, 2008)

*difficult road*

Beside the magnet price ... the JMAG software happens to be very ... let me balance my words ... challenging. 
I am trying to design the motor in function of the available and affordable magnets. The software is in an early stage and rather rudimentary. I am not saying that the soft is no good, but the results have to be interpreted and understood, before any jumps of joy are performed  ... Still I am thanking JMAG to grant us this free trial. From the simulation results, we can conclude that the amps at starting have to be kept in limits by the controller. We already know that in a BLDC motor the controller is ... as important as the motor, but from this max Amps point of view at start, the controller has to be moooooore sophisticated.


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## lkcl (Sep 16, 2011)

*Re: magnet price explosion*



WheelMotor said:


> When I said in 2008 that I could make this WM for 1500$ I forgot to look in my crystal boll, otherwise I had invested all my money in Neodyum. In which case I had multiplied my wealth with *10 !!!!!*
> While we are asking quotes for the more than 50 magnets we need in 1 motor, I am smashed with prices close to 1000$ only for the magnets !!!


dear WheelMotor,

*sigh* i could have said "i told you so" but that would also have needed me to have a crystal ball. i did however suspect that something like this would happen, but actually hearing from someone who has direct first-hand experience, it is quite an eye-opener.

so i have instead been designing vehicles that require only about 6-8kW sustained and about 12-15kW peak... and *not* in-wheel. would you be interested to see if you can build an LRK Torque-Max "outrunner" with that kind of rated and max performance? the LRK Torque-Max design is what PML FlightLink copied (they still make them custom, to order, to military and aerospace specs).

the efficiency and power of the LRK Torque-Max design is so significantly higher than that of a standard motor that when PML Flightlink initially came out with their datasheets before they had even made the motors, they didn't believe the numbers and quoted "85%" efficiency in the calculations. after actually testing them they had to hurriedly revise those numbers upwards by a big margin: the 7kW hub motor became an 11kW etc. 

so there are advantages to doing "outrunners" but those advantages are *not* because they're suitable for use as in-wheel motors, they're because the efficiency and torque characteristics are better.


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## PStechPaul (May 1, 2012)

I have not followed all of this thread but it has my interest. I was excited about the advertised claims of great efficiency, high power, and small size and weight, back in 2007 when I first started investigating EVs and hybrid conversions. But I was put off by the high cost at forst, and then the practical limitations I soon discovered regarding the mechanical construction, and most seriously, the question of batteries. Lithium cells have become more affordable since then, but BLDC motors, and especially wheel motors, have seemed to struggle and rise and fall with inflated claims and problems.

It seems to me that there will be a huge economic problem with PM motors if EVs make serious inroads on the market, and achieve 50% of all new vehicles in 15 years as predicted by Tesla's CEO. The limited supply of rare earths will jack up the cost of BLDCs and also slow the pace of production. But the problem of fragility may be even more important, and I don't really believe most of the claims for super high efficiencies over 90%, and I don't think it's even needed.

The charts posted of torque, efficiency, and losses are contradictory or at least incomplete. The combined copper and iron losses at top speed of 900 RPM show 2400 watts, which would be an efficiency of 90% for a 24kW motor. Yet the efficiency graph claims 97%. High efficiency motors usually come with the cost of larger size and weight due to more copper and iron, but a wheel motor needs to be compact and lightweight. Realistically, the efficiency of the motor does not contribute much to the overall operating expense of the vehicle, when you consider that the 10% difference between 85% and 95% motor efficiencies, for a total power of 40 HP, is just 3000 watts. But if you can save 300 pounds, you can add a lot more batteries, or two more passengers or cargo.

I have not heard anything about a wheelmotor using three phase induction motor principles, but it may be more practical and certainly more rugged and less expensive. If you can build it with 24 poles, you can get a speed of 300 RPM at 60 Hz and overclock it by 3x for 900 RPM which is about right for most purposes. And it may be even better to use a separately excited synchronous motor design for more torque.

Finally, the best design for a wheel motor may be the incorporation of a planetary reduction drive with a magnetic clutch so that the motor will have sufficient torque for starting and hill climbing at low speeds, but be capable of highly efficient direct drive at cruising speeds where the reduction drive is bypassed. It may even be worthwhile to look at a three-speed hub, similar to the old Sturmey-Archer bicycle hubs, although hub motors generally need gearing down more than overdrive.

That's where I'd invest my efforts and money!


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## lkcl (Sep 16, 2011)

PStechPaul said:


> I have not followed all of this thread but it has my interest. I was excited about the advertised claims of great efficiency, high power, and small size and weight, back in 2007 when I first started investigating EVs and hybrid conversions. But I was put off by the high cost at forst, and then the practical limitations I soon discovered regarding the mechanical construction, and most seriously, the question of batteries. Lithium cells have become more affordable since then, but BLDC motors, and especially wheel motors, have seemed to struggle and rise and fall with inflated claims and problems.


yeah. rare earth metals, in short supply for the batteries, rare earth metals, in short supply for the motors, and copper for the wires and motors, *also* in short supply due to the increases in electronics and electrical goods world-wide.

makes you stop and think, um, why are we in such a hurry to convert to electric cars?



> It seems to me that there will be a huge economic problem with PM motors if EVs make serious inroads on the market, and achieve 50% of all new vehicles in 15 years as predicted by Tesla's CEO. The limited supply of rare earths will jack up the cost of BLDCs and also slow the pace of production.


yeah exactly. that's a good thing. it will force people to do what they should have done in the first place: redesign the vehicle according to "mass decompounding" principles (google it. it's an eye-opening article).



> The charts posted of torque, efficiency, and losses are contradictory or at least incomplete. The combined copper and iron losses at top speed of 900 RPM show 2400 watts, which would be an efficiency of 90% for a 24kW motor. Yet the efficiency graph claims 97%.


yes. that's the peak efficiency, under optimal conditions. have a look at the kellycontroller 7kW in-wheel hub motor. under full load, the efficiency at low RPMs (stall torque) is s**t! it's something like 12%! and that's *normal*! the efficiency gets quite reasonable at medium RPMs, and then tails off again at peak RPM. this is *also* normal.

this is what people don't understand about electric motors, and i don't understand why they are so ignorant yet there is so much hype about "let's go electric, it'll save the planet, yaay!" it f*****g won't!

btw have you seen the pictures showing how neodymium is manufactured?? for the black market neodymium, vast areas of land in china are strip-mined, then they need hundreds of litres of high-concentration boiling acid per kg of neodymium to purify it, and the black marketeers just dump what used acid that doesn't go straight into the sky as steam right into the nearest river, killing off the local ecology for miles. and every time we say "yaay! let's buy a vehicle which has had no more attention to its design put into it other than to f*****g drop in the largest electric motor we can find, yaay!" we're enabling those scumbags (who don't have to be chinese, i should mention). it's the same category as buying child labour shoes or buying conflict diamonds.

grrrr 




> High efficiency motors usually come with the cost of larger size and weight due to more copper and iron, but a wheel motor needs to be compact and lightweight. Realistically, the efficiency of the motor does not contribute much to the overall operating expense of the vehicle, when you consider that the 10% difference between 85% and 95% motor efficiencies, for a total power of 40 HP, is just 3000 watts. But if you can save 300 pounds, you can add a lot more batteries, or two more passengers or cargo.


 in a word... yes. which is why i've been focussing on ultra-light-weight bodywork designs, hybrids not pure EVs (2nd prototype will be a parallel hybrid), and using single motors with a standard ICE gearbox (or quad-bike CVT).



> I have not heard anything about a wheelmotor using three phase induction motor principles, but it may be more practical and certainly more rugged and less expensive. If you can build it with 24 poles, you can get a speed of 300 RPM at 60 Hz and overclock it by 3x for 900 RPM which is about right for most purposes. And it may be even better to use a separately excited synchronous motor design for more torque.


ok, you definitely want to look up the LRK Torque-Max design. it was originally created for use in model aircraft, by some enthusiasts who couldn't get hold of light-weight powerful enough motors for their planes. they published the design concepts online, and that's what many companies have followed.

so you can actually build your own motor with as many poles as you want, according to the maths and equations on their site. they also have the "winding" advice, even. and yes it's a BLDC design, usually 3 phase. bottom line: you can have 24 poles if you want  24 poles and 26 magnets is a good setup, from what i gather.



> Finally, the best design for a wheel motor may be the incorporation of a planetary reduction drive with a magnetic clutch so that the motor will have sufficient torque for starting and hill climbing at low speeds, but be capable of highly efficient direct drive at cruising speeds where the reduction drive is bypassed.


yes, i absolutely agree with you: i just haven't found a gearbox small enough and sturdy enough that would do the job... until you mentioned... this, below:



> It may even be worthwhile to look at a three-speed hub, similar to the old Sturmey-Archer bicycle hubs, although hub motors generally need gearing down more than overdrive.
> 
> That's where I'd invest my efforts and money!


 sturmley-archer... bit of googling later and following a few links... sturmley-archer gears are planetary... wow, wow! a 14-speed hub gearbox in only 1.7kg, wow! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rohloff_AG that's... deeply impressive. wow. ah i have to pursue this. thank you paul.


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## ruckus (Apr 15, 2009)

I would suggest Googling 'neodymium' if you haven't. The 'rare' earth material used in the magnets is NOT RARE AT ALL. In fact, it is actually the most abundant of the 'rare' earth class. Most every spoonful of Earth has some.

As for lithium, it is in sea water. No shortage there.

The issue for both of these materials is production. Currently the Chinese make most of both. If EV's became the norm, production facilities would be springing up all over the world.

The whole 'rare' Earth shortage thing is oil-company propaganda.

Why should we be falling all over ourselves to switch to Electric drive???

Ever heard of the trade deficit? We currently give most of our money (that doesn't go to the war machine) to our enemies to get oil which we burn. This is pretty much the same as burning cash. DUMB! It would be MUCH smarter to put the same money into solar panels (or other energy tech). Then you actually HAVE something which continues to make you money for decades.


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## PStechPaul (May 1, 2012)

Although Neodymium is indeed found all over the earth, its extraction creates many environmental problems. That's why induction motors may really be the right way to go:
http://urbanmining.org/2012/01/24/toyota-avoid-rare-earth-metals-neodymium-dysprosium-hybrids/

Technology often tends to follow the beaten path, and such paths may be prepared by those who plan to profit hugely. There are relatively few true innovators who look at all sorts of alternatives and carefully weigh the pros and cons. It is the nature of high volume production to do a little engineering and then commit heavily in it, where better alternatives may be ignored because of immediate profit motives.

One example has been the hoopla over CFLs, which were lovingly embraced by environmentalists because of their efficiency but without much thought to the hazards of the mercury they contained, or the other problems involved in their manufacture and use. Narrow-minded zealotry led to mandates and bans which encouraged speculative buyups and hoarding of tungsten lamps. This was not the right way to encourage energy efficiency. And it inhibited the development of LED lamps, which are better, and would have become more affordable and popular if not for the CFL craze.

When government becomes too intrusive it tramples on freedom and stifles proper competition. The proper way to deal with the energy problem is to eliminate subsidies and depletion credits and apply taxes that compensate for the true cost of various forms of energy, and make it economically attractive for people to make the "right" choices. 

We need to be aware of all factors involved in our choices of technology in our quest to be pioneers of energy efficiency and environmental responsibility. The oil companies are not the only ones who distort facts and hide the ugliness of reality in the name of profits and maintaining "business as usual". We must remain somewhat skeptical and open-minded and honest about bottom-line comparisons of our actions and inactions. 

Ultimately, I think we will need to look at the big picture and reshape the way we live, including our driving habits, employment, and social values. But that's a much different topic from wheel motors.


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## mk4gti (May 6, 2011)

lkcl said:


> this is what people don't understand about electric motors, and i don't understand why they are so ignorant yet there is so much hype about "let's go electric, it'll save the planet, yaay!" it f*****g won't!


truf. !


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

lkcl said:


> yeah. rare earth metals, in short supply for the batteries, rare earth metals, in short supply for the motors, and copper for the wires and motors, *also* in short supply due to the increases in electronics and electrical goods world-wide.
> 
> makes you stop and think, um, why are we in such a hurry to convert to electric cars?


Maybe because what you posted is not true? Lithium batteries do not use rare earths, and AC induction motors, such as Tesla and my conversion uses, don't need rare earths, and copper is not in short supply. Copper is also recyclable, and can be replaced with aluminum in many cases. 




> this is what people don't understand about electric motors, and i don't understand why they are so ignorant yet there is so much hype about "let's go electric, it'll save the planet, yaay!" it f*****g won't!


The only thing that will "save the planet" is population control.


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## WheelMotor (Sep 16, 2008)

*In Wheel Motor ... less affordable*



JRP3 said:


> The only thing that will "save the planet" is population control.


I am just back from Bangladesh. A country roughly 5 times the size of Belgium with a population of 15 times the already dense population of Belgium. Total chaos ! Not of any use for the WM project.
I made this picture last week, while standing in the endless Dhaka Traffic jam.










WM project is stuck again due to: 
1) Unexpected price hike of RE magnets.
2) We have a working model in JMAG software, but alternative modeling software is not available as a free fully working software and cost in excess of 5000 euro for the license. As many have said here, the results of the tests, show graphs that need to be confirmed. We need a second opinion.
3) The efficinecy at 0 RPM. When the car starts to move, the efficiency is near 0 (although increases rapidly). The lack of gearing problem. Gearing is not an option, because it will make the motor overly complex and heavy.


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## lkcl (Sep 16, 2011)

*Re: In Wheel Motor ... less affordable*



WheelMotor said:


> I am just back from Bangladesh. A country roughly 5 times the size of Belgium with a population of 15 times the already dense population of Belgium. Total chaos ! Not of any use for the WM project.


... are you sure? they could i feel make use of a much lighter-weight and lighter-powered vehicle: it's not like there's many hills, and it's not like there's all the EU regulations on vehicle design and build or anything... 



> I made this picture last week, while standing in the endless Dhaka Traffic jam.


superb! absolutely amazing, isn't it. it is such an eye-opener to go to these countries, isn't it? to see how people can tolerate conditions that would make less-tolerant people literally get back on the plane they just stepped out of...



> WM project is stuck again due to:
> 1) Unexpected price hike of RE magnets.
> 2) We have a working model in JMAG software, but alternative modeling software is not available as a free fully working software and cost in excess of 5000 euro for the license. As many have said here, the results of the tests, show graphs that need to be confirmed. We need a second opinion.
> 3) The efficinecy at 0 RPM. When the car starts to move, the efficiency is near 0 (although increases rapidly). The lack of gearing problem. Gearing is not an option, because it will make the motor overly complex and heavy.


regarding 3: stall conditions is *the* serious deficiency of the entire hub-motor concept. i do not understand why people do not understand this. but do not give up! i believe it may be solvable with even just a 2-speed planetary gear arrangement, just as was suggested earlier.

regarding 2: nobody used simulations to do the LRK Torque-Max designs: they just got on with it! they did some research, calculated the equations and built one! i know the scale here is somewhat bigger, but why not try making a small one (even a 1kW one) first, perhaps for bicycles? that would solve problem 1) as well.

also regarding 1: i am serious about the lighter-weight vehicle design thing. to tackle big stuff like 1,000kg or 2,000kg cars is absolutely crazy. i can safely say this precisely because the cost of the magnets is becoming so prohibitively expensive, as it is just one sign of the insanity of taking existing *unmodified* ICE car designs and thinking "ohh, i'll just slap on some hub wheels to this 1000kg hunk of metal, that'll do" - you *can't* do that, and you should not encourage people to consider doing it either.

in other words, i really feel that the way forward is to offer companies the parts required to make "Neighbourhood EV" vehicles; Category L7e Quad-Bike "Micro-cars"; Trikes and so on, simply because it's just within the costs.

so, seriously: could you please consider - and do a fair but approximate evaluation for me - doing a 7.5kW hub motor with a 2-speed planetary gearbox built-in, based around the old bicycle concept? although it will be possible to vary the gearing of course, the high gear should be 1:1 and the low gear should be ... ooo... 2.5:1 or even 4:1 so as to provide that all-important "hill climbing" ability.

the reason for 7.5kW is because 2x 7.5kW is 15kW, and this is the limit of Category L7e. it's also perfectly well enough power to take even a quad-bike with very poor aerodynamics up to 70mph using a CVT gearbox.... eventually 

but, also: 7.5kW is going to be *affordable*. look at the cost of this: http://www.electricmotorsport.com/store/ems_ev_parts_motors_enertrac_mhm602-603.php

that's the enertrac 602 (which of course is direct-drive so they have to do a 603 version which has different windings....) the cost of the enertrac 602 *including* disc brake and outer rim? $1250! and that gets you a 10kW (30kW peak) motor... and you were talking about spending $1000+ just on the raw materials of the *magnets* - that's just insanity!

so yes: please could you do an evaluation for me of the materials (esp. weight) and build cost of a spoke-based 7.5kW hub motor with a built-in 2-speed "bicycle" style planetary gearbox and forced-air cooling? let me know how much it costs for prototype units as well as an estimate for the mass-production cost, and we'll go from there - how does that sound?

/peace

l.


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## ruckus (Apr 15, 2009)

Before you give up, please consider variations in both the winding and the diameter. Maybe the real purpose of those pimp-daddy 20" rims is to fit large diameter wheel motors. 

Have you also considered making the wheel itself into the outrunner motor rotor?

Here is an article on electric 'torque motors'. They claim 1rpm is fine with the proper sensor.
http://www.rcv-srl.it/index.asp?id_sezione=18&id_lang=2&random=vero

Here is another article with some nice pictures:
http://machinedesign.com/article/torque-motors-do-the-trick-0403

Here is an example torque motor. 
http://www.ecvv.com/product/2405384.html
It's rpm is even lower than you require, but if you consider the 13,000nm  torque, it shows that torque and rpm are inversely proportional. If you only need 1200rpm then a properly configured motor should produce 3x the torque of the same size motor configured for 3600rpm.

How many poles are you considering? 28? More is better in this case, correct?

Good luck


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## WheelMotor (Sep 16, 2008)

*mucho problemos*



lkcl said:


> ... are you sure? they could i feel make use of a much lighter-weight and lighter-powered vehicle: it's not like there's many hills, and it's not like there's all the EU regulations on vehicle design and build or anything...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I wanted to make a WheelMotor that is part of the rim. So that we could simply replace a rim/tire with my WM. This severely limits the possibilities compared to a "blanc sheet" design. But making a WM availeble to the retrofit market that could be realy bold on your car without any suspension mods and with a power of 50KW per wheel. That should be an interesting project. However ... It must remain, controller inclusive, affordable. And under affordable I mean a few 1000 $ per wheel motor. But the magnets, that can tolerate temperatures of more than 100 degree Celsius, are very expensive. If you want to see what trespassing this max temperature does to your expensive magnets, look at this chart:








Chart comes from this very interesting website: 
www.ndfeb-info.com/temperature_ratings
Expensive and vulnerable magnets make it also very tough to, just make it, as a trial. And for this reason reliable modeling is a must.
Adding gearing to a retro fit Wheel Motor that has also a disk brake in the hub center is not impossible, but very complex and beyond the reach of what we affordable can fabricate. 
As for your request to make a prototype of a WM with a planetary gear incorporated. Only the ingenearing of the custom made gears. I know a workshop in Egypt that can make any gears at an affordable price. But you have to design / draw it in detail and than fly to Egypt and stay there in a hotel for a few weeks. Sorry... not interested. Here in Belgium prototyping such a complex design would cost in the order of 10.000's of Euro's. I can't help you with that. 
Sorting out my (by comparison super simple) water cooled gear-less WM has given me already sleepless nights.


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## PStechPaul (May 1, 2012)

IMHO it is not possible to make a practical motor that is part of the rim and just bolts on. It is possible to do so for a sort of hybrid, as was demonstrated in a link posted awhile back in this thread. See:
http://electrichubcap.creativesystemdesigns.com/

I think it would work well enough bolted onto the rear wheels of a FWD car, and used as an alternate source of motive power, as well as instant 4WD conversion, and for regenerative braking. The problem I see with this design is that the motor is essentially "open", and the critical spacing between rotor and stator can be affected by water, ice, sand, gravel, and other common elements. And I don't see a practical way to enclose it and seal it. 

The most efficient seal is one of the smallest diameter which can fit tightly on a shaft so that it can exclude contaminants and keep lubrication inside the motor bearings. And the further the motor is located from the wheels, the better protected it will be, and it also becomes easier to mount, with better center of gravity, and the electrical connections are minimized. Axles, CV joints, and gears are very efficient and versatile for power transmission and torque conversion, and they are simple, rugged, and fairly inexpensive. 

It is good that we are having this discussion on wheel motors, but I think we need to remain open minded about all aspects of the project. All ideas should be on the table at the beginning, but then the most practical should be identified and pursued, while the others put aside. Maybe at some later time things will change, and a method previously rejected will become the winner. Or, as in this case, a problem with a key material is identified and the previous benefits of the technology are outweighed by economic and logistical constraints. 

And, finally, the 50 kW per wheel specification seems totally unrealistic, except for possibly buses, tractors, and large construction equipment. I think we will eventually need to rethink our need for power and speed as have been promoted by big energy companies and Detroit businessmen who profit from increased energy consumption and glamorization of fast, powerful vehicles driven aggressively and purchased as status symbols. 

Instead, we should look at transportation as a means of moving goods and materials and people from one place to another in the safest and most efficient manner possible, and relegate the concept of sport driving and racing to special tracks designed for that purpose. We should remove big, heavy vehicles like trucks and SUVs from the public highways to allow safe travel for smaller, lighter, more efficient vehicles like scooters, electric bikes, and even wheelchairs and slow-moving small heavy vehicles like tractors. It only takes perhaps 1 or 2 horsepower to move one or two people and a fair amount of luggage, at a speed of up to 15-20 MPH. Think about why our cars need to be so big and heavy, and why we think we need to go so fast and have so much power. And then prove to me why a passenger vehicle needs 50HP per wheel...


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## ruckus (Apr 15, 2009)

PStechPaul said:


> ... Axles, CV joints, and gears are very efficient and versatile for power transmission and torque conversion, and they are simple, rugged, and fairly inexpensive.


This boggles my mind. Please come with me out to the garage where you can attempt to lift trannys and driveshafts and differentials. Maybe you would like to try and service them? Change a pinion gear, replace some tranny bearings, even just a simple flush and fill of diff fluid (terrible stinky awful stuff). Maybe you want to go to a tranny shop and price a repair? 

Then lets have this conversation again. I think you will agree with me.

I believes (Popeye speak) that anyone who has actually worked on this 2-century old tech would ditch it in a New York minute.

Have you actually lifted this junk and worked on it? (taken it apart and put it back together)? I have and do and it's RUBBISH. (exception-- I love the 5-speed overdrives from the 50's only put in trucks and kept secret from you).

Most people are not aware that vehicles did not change in technology between 1930 and 1975. It was only style. 45 years of nothing but marketing bs. But that is capitalism. You don't need a better a product or a new design, just better marketing, hotter chicks in the brochures, and why not just rate the same motor at higher rpm so you can say it has more 'power'. 95% will be fooled. This is history.

So sad.


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## PStechPaul (May 1, 2012)

I've worked on differentials and driveshafts, transmissions, U-joits, etc. I know how much they weigh and there is room for improvement in efficiency, but in general such mechanical parts can easily reach 95-99% efficiency. Of course, a transmission rated for 500 HP and 98% efficient may waste 13 kW of energy. But I contend that it will probably be cheaper and better to use mechanical means to get the best overall range of torque and speed for electric vehicles. 

And this discussion is about wheel motors, which I think need to be rated at no more than 10-15 HP for a passenger car. If you want a dragster or a high performance sports car then you need more, of course, but there I don't think wheel motors will be a good choice. In fact there may be only a few places where they really make sense.

When you consider a planetary drive for low-speed torque, I think it could be made small and light enough to be easily handled and serviced. At 15HP per wheel, it would be probably about 30-40 pounds. It probably starts losing efficiency at higher speeds, but then you could activate an electric clutch and bypass the reduction to go 1:1 at much higher efficiency. There are too many basic physical and electronic factors that work against the development of a single speed wheel motor for a wide range of driving needs.

You are correct that the car companies have used powerful advertising techniques to convince the masses that they need a new car every three years, and that they need ever increasing power and speed and size. It's all about trying to keep the economy growing, constantly expanding as if there are no limits to consumption and no consequences for our greed and quest for personal glory based on how much we can spend and how hard we can push a gas pedal. 

At this point in time, perhaps EVs must compete on some of the same terms as dictated by the fabricated ideals that benefit big business and keep the oil company profits soaring. But there will soon need to be a major paradigm shift, and I'd rather focus on that rather than make compromises now and try to compete on the same playing field as yesterday's technology. The ICE age will be over in a short time, maybe 10-20 years. And the entire concept of driving and even living as we do now will be changing rather drastically.


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## WheelMotor (Sep 16, 2008)

PStechpaul, I largely agree with you, but ...
The WM as I see it here is an after market item. I can not start with a blanc sheet and develop an entire car. In that case, no discussion that lighter is better. But like you said, I don't want to buy a new car. Mine is nice, but I want to make it hybrid. I don't see myself as DIYer, to ad an inboard motor that I connect with some shafts and gears to the existing drive shaft / rear differential setup. That would be, very complex and a no go for the yearly technical vehicle control. 
The power rating of the WM as I want is 50 KW but (I will quote a discussion my friend and I had about this subject)
_"The very rough Torque calculation with T = kD2L doesn't have an extremely important parameter, and that is cooling. Within the restrains of a given dimension Volt and Amps are indeed limited to the efficiency of the design and the possibility to get rid of the waste heat (= the dimensions) . I can not find back the article at this moment, but it was like ambient air=10 KW, liquid cooled=30 KW or so.
And than there is the factor of *Peak versus Continuous power*. Every electric motor (as opposed to an IC motor) can be easily Peak Powered by simply putting a lot of Volt on it for a very short time. Like only 6 seconds, for example. If it is water cooled that the cooling will need only the next few minutes to get rid of the excess heat.

When I think on 50 KW than that is water cooled Peak Power for only for example 6 seconds. The continuous power rating can be only 12 Kw. Peak torque 800 NM and continuous torque 200 Nm. Just enough time to get the vehicle rolling swiftly from a standing start."_


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## WheelMotor (Sep 16, 2008)

*Max Torque*

Thanks to the kind people of JMAG who granted us a trial version of there software, my friend is playing with different parameters to get the best out of it within all kind of limitations. (dimensions and cost) 









ok, so how will it perform at less Volts? 
well not exactly bad but we do still need to push those Amperes










and if you drop the Amperes (by means of the controller) too you'll get:










ok, so how big is this thing?










well, it is too big. 
ok, let's strip it to our dimensions and see how it will perform then


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## WheelMotor (Sep 16, 2008)

so we got a motor in the compatible range of dimensions let's try to push the V/A specs and see how well it will respond










well, we have our rpms back. lets push Amperes then.










not bad huh?










as you can see - at 240V we have our 1200 rpms and 500Amps are giving us a nice torque figures

then there was the funny thing i've been talking about - even if you drop voltage to our 150V range, pushing up Ampers to the 500 level will give us a nice torque figures with that particular model. This might sound silly to say: Dropping the Volts and increasing the Amps. Actualy it is the controler that will allow more RMS Amps with that given Voltage. This JMAG soft has this parameter to set the Controller V and A.
sure we will not have anything even near to 1200rpms though.










so, if the 150Volts and 1200RPMs are both critical constraints then this method unfortunately will not work.

what else can we do?
we can start modeling with those parameters filled in, right?
well, not exactly, because it will give us again a huge motor, cutting down of which will give us the less powerful motor that will not do those RPMs at 150Volts.
so, the only way here is to figure what Power Rating could fit, if even approximately, in our dimension specs.

usual method of trying different values till something will fit gives something around - 68.6KW (i.e. around 274.4NM of torque top)










let's see how it will perform striped a bit to our dimensions


















so with 150V and 300A we will hit 1100rpms top
how we can get our rpms back?
we can strip the rotor core a little


























as you can see - stripping of just a 1 mm will suffice, but we do lose 25NM on the way.


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## WheelMotor (Sep 16, 2008)

let see what pushing the Amperes to 500 does










ok, and what can we achieve by pushing 240V?










We can hit even 1500rpms with this one.

anyway, it is fairly easy to model if you know all of the critical constraints.
the modelling will give us the results that are close to reality only if it will be close enough to the real motor.

so to resume - for a moment i have those constrains as a critical bunch:
1) stack height 70mm
2) inside diameter 250mm
3) outside diameter 400mm(not 380 mm as in mine 3D model right now)
4) 150Volts for the 3phase power supply
5) 500Amps also for the 3phase power supply


----------



## WheelMotor (Sep 16, 2008)

*Re: In Wheel Motor ... less affordable*



lkcl said:


> so, seriously: could you please consider - and do a fair but approximate evaluation for me - doing a 7.5kW hub motor with a 2-speed planetary gearbox built-in, based around the old bicycle concept? although it will be possible to vary the gearing of course, the high gear should be 1:1 and the low gear should be ... ooo... 2.5:1 or even 4:1 so as to provide that all-important "hill climbing" ability.
> 
> the reason for 7.5kW is because 2x 7.5kW is 15kW, and this is the limit of Category L7e. it's also perfectly well enough power to take even a quad-bike with very poor aerodynamics up to 70mph using a CVT gearbox.... eventually
> 
> ...


Did you saw this:
GOLDENMOTOR.COM








Up to you to "ad" some gearing.


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## PStechPaul (May 1, 2012)

The main website is http://goldenmotor.com/. The 10kW motor *kit* is about *$785* and comes in 48, 72, 96, and 120V. That seems pretty good. If it is 3000 RPM and 13 HP that is a torque of 23 lb-ft and 3x is 70 lb-ft. I think you need a total of at least 300 lb-ft on the axles for a 2000 lb vehicle so for direct drive you'd need four of these. Or you could use gearing to get the torque at lower speed. Two of these, one on each axle, should have enough power for an EV. 

But it is still not a wheel motor and I think you will need to remove the entire hub and brake rotor. For a bolt-on hybrid I think you need to keep the FWD as it is and use the unpowered rear for the motor. I had bought a complete "rear clip" for a Saturn SL1 to try to make an electric conversion. It was not an easy task.

A better option might be a 4WD vehicle like a Subaru and disconnect the rear driveshaft. Then connect the differential shaft to an electric motor, and you're nearly done.

I could not see the images in your posts so it was hard to follow your discussion. If you can fix that, maybe I can add more useful comments.


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## WheelMotor (Sep 16, 2008)

PStechPaul said:


> I could not see the images in your posts so it was hard to follow your discussion. If you can fix that, maybe I can add more useful comments.


Did you try logging in first ?

(edited) My friend says that doesn't help either. Very strange, because I can see the pictures on all my PC's ... A mystery !
I will repair asap.
(2 edit) Are they visible now ?


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## lkcl (Sep 16, 2011)

PStechPaul said:


> The main website is http://goldenmotor.com/. The 10kW motor *kit* is about *$785* and comes in 48, 72, 96, and 120V. That seems pretty good. If it is 3000 RPM and 13 HP that is a torque of 23 lb-ft and 3x is 70 lb-ft. I think you need a total of at least 300 lb-ft on the axles for a 2000 lb vehicle so for direct drive you'd need four of these. Or you could use gearing to get the torque at lower speed. Two of these, one on each axle, should have enough power for an EV.


they're also lighter by 2k than the ME0913, and lower-cost too. and can be liquid-cooled, which means that a) you have a source of heating for the interior b) it may be possible to push the power up somewhat.

but, come on - direct-drive is silly, we know that. gearing down to get lower speed? you just shot yourself in the foot because you just restricted the vehicle's top speed to 30mph or 40mph, and it still doesn't guarantee that the motor will run in its optimal (most efficient) band. you *need* gears.

so i believe it was you, paul (thank you!) who mentioned it: after the idea about a Sturmley-Archer gearbox i'm going to make a separate post about this: i have an opportunity coming up, beginning of september, to work with a Scottish University to "get stuff made". will edit here once it's up and provide a link. http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forum...lanetary-gearbox-alternative-wheel-77019.html


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

WheelMotor said:


> (2 edit) Are they visible now ?


Yes, now they showed up.


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## WheelMotor (Sep 16, 2008)

*In Wheel Motor ... UNaffordable*

*For every body who found my initial claim to make a WM for 1500$ impossible :*

*Middle Tennessee State working on $3,000 after-market plug-in hybrid kit*



*Yes sir, All in! , the motor, the controler AND THE Li-ION BATTERIES !!!!!!!!!*












From the Autoblog Green website.


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

*Re: In Wheel Motor ... UNaffordable*



WheelMotor said:


> *For every body who found my initial claim to make a WM for 1500$ impossible :*
> 
> *Middle Tennessee State working on $3,000 after-market plug-in hybrid kit*
> 
> ...


Hey Mr. WheelMotor,

Do you believe everything you read? That thing is a P.O.S.  

Regards,

major


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## lkcl (Sep 16, 2011)

*Re: In Wheel Motor ... UNaffordable*



WheelMotor said:


> *For every body who found my initial claim to make a WM for 1500$ impossible :*
> 
> *Middle Tennessee State working on $3,000 after-market plug-in hybrid kit*
> 
> http://green.autoblog.com/2012/08/0...te-after-market-plug-in-hybrid-kit/#continued


they've not provided sufficient details in the article to be able to tell if the product will cope with the full range of conditions that any vehicle is expected to operate under.

as many people have found and has been discussed many times even on this forum, unless it has built-in gearing of some kind, it's simply not going to be viable as there is a simple, simple and mutually exclusive choice between low RPM with high torque, or high RPM and low torque. this is simply completely and scientifically an unavoidable fact of electric motors.

one possible way to solve the problem is to split the windings into two. you then have two (complex) controllers and some associated electronics or potentially relays that put the windings into parallel for the "high RPM low torque" case, and put them into series for the "low RPM, high torque" case.

the other possible way is mechanical gearing.

any proposal which does neither of these things is misleading people with the false belief that direct-drive motors can cope, efficiently, with a considerable range of RPMs and powers.

WheelMotor: would you be interested to manufacture a Geared Hub Motor or In-Wheel Gearbox that can take a MARS/ETEK motor?


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

> Dr. Charles Perry, a former IBM employee who's leading the effort, is working with nine students to create a plug-in hybrid kit that *could* cost as little as $3,000, once production is up and running.


In other words, they do not have a wheel motor system for anywhere near $3,000.


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## lkcl (Sep 16, 2011)

*Re: In Wheel Motor ... UNaffordable*



major said:


> Hey Mr. WheelMotor,
> 
> Do you believe everything you read? That thing is a P.O.S.
> 
> ...


http://mtsunews.com/wheel-hub-retrofit-update/

ok, i found the link on the MTS web site: it gives more details. it's particularly interesting (and major: you are out of order).

the article *actually* says that it's a "vehicle assist" motor, not an independent (exclusive) powered motor. it fits onto the hub of the rear wheels (assuming a FWD vehicle) and "assists" an otherwise standard vehicle.

so, presumably, it could be designed to operate at low RPM, high torque to provide efficient city driving, and then the "standard" ICE motor and gearbox, which would not need any modifications of any kind, would take over.

that's a damn good idea. now, why the f*** didn't the original article mention that??


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

They state in the video that this motor is not capable of moving the vehicle independently at all, the ICE always runs. The hub motor is only an assist. So the main advantage of a hybrid, being able to shut off the motor while stopped and move the vehicle with only electric power at low speed, does not exist for this setup. Not only will this probably cost more than $3K to implement it doesn't really provide much advantage. I'm inclined to agree with Major.


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## WheelMotor (Sep 16, 2008)

*Mister Perry "invented" it for us !*

Mister Perry has even asked 4 patents for his "Invention". He is not good in using Google or he might have see this and countless other attempts. 
Why are we spending time and efforts on studying the sealing of our motor and the impact of the air gab on efficiency. Mister Perry has it long sorted out 

A screenshot from the Autobloggreen video, shows the level of sophistication of his motor.


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## WheelMotor (Sep 16, 2008)

*Re: In Wheel Motor ... UNaffordable*



major said:


> Hey Mr. WheelMotor,
> 
> Do you believe everything you read? That thing is a P.O.S.
> 
> ...


Major, it is all over the news ! When a Professor of Middle Tennessee State University say so ... Strange how people get carried away with such a ... storm in a glass of water.


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

*Re: In Wheel Motor ... UNaffordable*



lkcl said:


> (and major: you are out of order).


Excuse me. We're all entitled to our opinion. You might find it interesting, but it looks like a high school science class project attempt at motor design, and a poorly done one at that.

And another thing which bothers me about this is the performance claim in the article. 100% improvement, NOT


----------



## major (Apr 4, 2008)

*Re: In Wheel Motor ... UNaffordable*



WheelMotor said:


> Major, it is all over the news ! When a Professor of Middle Tennessee State University say so ... Strange how people get carried away with such a ... storm in a glass of water.


I'm not impressed.


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## PStechPaul (May 1, 2012)

I proposed something essentially the same as this over six years ago:
http://www.pstech-inc.com/SHAMPAC.htm

I'm not all that impressed, and I think the essential technology is fairly obvious and well established. But as he says, the unique aspects are the way it is implemented so as to be basically a bolt-on solution. As long as rare earth magnets are not made from Unobtanium, this might be viable as a commercial success for a small part of the EV market. 

As noted, the torque is about 200 lb-ft per wheel, which provides a thrust of about 400 lb. And I assume this is maximum for short term and not sustained. The hub motor is designed for up to about 40 mph, perhaps even less, which is the speed range at which the ICE is least efficient. An electric boost like this is ideal for stop and go and barely moving traffic, and unless you are on a steep incline (which is rare on interstate highways), the torque should be sufficient for a 4000 lb car on a 10% grade. 

I think this could be redesigned as an induction motor, or as a switched reluctance motor, which would eliminate the expensive magnets and make the assembly more rugged. You can get pretty much any amount of torque if you use enough poles and have good magnetic coupling. But the narrow air gaps could be a problem unless this motor could be totally sealed from environmental contamination. That's pretty tough with a design like this. If some sand or a chip of metal gets in there and gets between the coil faces and the magnets, it may instantly lock the entire wheel and break the magnets and short out the coils and you have a dangerous situation and an inoperable vehicle. 

So, I'm not holding my breath...


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## WheelMotor (Sep 16, 2008)

*In Wheel Motor ... not so affordable*

The question is not: Can it be done? But will it be reasonable to do it considered the cost ? 

So let's make a overview of the expected total cost of adding 2 wheel motors to the back of your car. I calculated so far that a decent 50 Kw piek power, totaly sealed, liquid cooled WM inclusive the rim will cost like 3000$ per piece. (without profit for me)

2 Wheelmotors: 6000$ 
2 controlers: 2000$
Battery management system 200$
Cables, switches, throttle position sensor etc 300$
Battery charger 750$
33 x 90$ Li ION batteries 60AH 100V LFP060AH – WB-LYP60AHA = 2970$
*Total = 12220 $*
Please correct me if I forgot something or exaggerated.

*Don't forget to Poll on top of the page !!!*


----------



## lkcl (Sep 16, 2011)

*Re: In Wheel Motor ... not so affordable*



WheelMotor said:


> The question is not: Can it be done? But will it be reasonable to do it considered the cost ?
> 
> So let's make a overview of the expected total cost of adding 2 wheel motors to the back of your car. I calculated so far that a decent 50 Kw piek power, totaly sealed, liquid cooled WM inclusive the rim will cost like 3000$ per piece. (without profit for me)
> 
> ...


ok, the system that this university is developing is *slightly* different: it does not require "max total power to push the entire vehicle on its own". so the costs can be reduced.

i think if they have done say a 10kW motor that can be pushed to 30kW peak for short durations, then the cost of the enertrac 603 is more appropriate, and associated controllers. also: if they are looking to effectively turn the vehicle into a hybrid where they will use the car's engine to "drag" the rear wheels and perform charging of the battery, that they can use an H-Bridge effectively no longer needing a charger, and also use a much smaller battery pack.

so let's say 10kW motors: that's $1250 (based on the price of the enertrac)

controllers: these are about $600 retail for a 10kW power, but for a full H-Bridge it's likely to be closer to $800.

batteries: for hybrids you do *not* need a large battery pack: just lots of smaller parallel cells (Headway 8Ah would do it) - 64 of those costs about $1000.

BMS: if you're getting a high-current BMS for $200 that's damn good going!  i was quoted $300 for a 250A 16 cell one!

charger: not needed. you use the full H-Bridge, put it in reverse, and the ICE engine "drags" the back wheels along, and recharges the batteries that way.

so that is actually $3250, per wheel. which is actually pretty close to what they're talking about. they're talking about an "assist" system - turning a standard car into a Hybrid with nothing more than drop-in replacement rear wheels. *not* about *replacing* the ICE as the sole exclusive power system: that's entirely different and they are *NOT* i repeat *NOT* i repeat again *NOT* developing such a system.


----------



## lkcl (Sep 16, 2011)

*Re: In Wheel Motor ... UNaffordable*



major said:


> Excuse me. We're all entitled to our opinion.


we are. i don't believe i joined this forum to hear you - or anyone - bullying someone. that's *different* from criticising a particular technical approach.

WheelMotor was putting out a message - that some university was trying to achieve something. you shot the messenger: you criticised WheelMotor *personally* for him putting up a post. that's COMPLETELY inappropriate, and if you don't understand that then i will flag your posts as inappropriate and you will face the consequences.

are we perfectly clear on that?



> You might find it interesting, but it looks like a high school science class project attempt at motor design, and a poorly done one at that.
> 
> And another thing which bothers me about this is the performance claim in the article. 100% improvement, NOT


that's because you haven't actually understood what they're doing. not that the article is long on details: i too originally thought "this is a stupid idea". but then i looked at it a bit more closely, and realised that actually it's incredibly smart. it might not succeed commercially, but it's still a damn good idea, and technically viable.

you have to think, major: a university doesn't go claiming a 50% to 100% fuel economy increase without actually having a good reason. *especially* if they've got real prototypes and actual test data to back it up.

so i'm not very impressed that you criticised WheelMotor - personally - for bringing this to our attention, and i'm not very impressed either that you haven't properly researched the facts and are putting out an ill-researched opinion. i don't know why i'm even pointing this out, other than the fact that i don't like bullies. *especially* bullies who operate in a public forum.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

I think you are way out of line. Major has helped more people on this forum that almost anyone, and he was in no way bullying Wheelmotor. He stated his opinion on that system, it had nothing to do with WheelMotor. Don't come into a forum threatening long standing members with "consequences" of their posts. Major knows the rules and has been here a long time. You have not.
Further your idea that they can use the ICE to drag the rear wheels around and recharge the pack while technically feasible totally ignores the fact that doing so will completely kill any efficiency gains of the system, which will be minimal to begin with.


----------



## major (Apr 4, 2008)

*Re: In Wheel Motor ... UNaffordable*



lkcl said:


> we are. i don't believe i joined this forum to hear you - or anyone - bullying someone. that's *different* from criticising a particular technical approach.
> 
> WheelMotor was putting out a message - that some university was trying to achieve something. you shot the messenger: you criticised WheelMotor *personally* for him putting up a post. that's COMPLETELY inappropriate, and if you don't understand that then i will flag your posts as inappropriate and you will face the consequences.
> 
> ...


I've been having fun with Mr. WheelMotor for 4 years on this thread. Lighten up, will ya?

And as for the subject of that particular motor design attempt, I know what I'm looking at. It sucks. I'm not afraid to say so.

As for the 100% improvement claim, show me or go home. I have done years of research and developed such hybrid systems (for commercial vehicles) and know you're not getting 100% from the likes of that.

I'm sure Middle Tennessee State U is a fine institution, but it is not an engineering school. That is not to say good things can't come from non-engineers, but that isn't the case here.


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## WheelMotor (Sep 16, 2008)

Hey Ikcl, calm down, please. 
My latest post about the price of my Wheel Motor was not in relation to this ridiculous Tennessee University WM. I just wanted to make an overview about what it would cost us to make a car hybrid. I want it to be cheap, but it has to perform well. I want also to drive around town at max 50 Km/h for 10 km or so, like a Prius can. 
For example the batteries: Feeding the appetite of 2 wheelmotors, that are standing still, and accelerating away with reasonably swift acceleration of the vehicle. In my case a 2000 kg Jag, uses for a few seconds HUGE amps. We speak about the order of 1000 Amps by 100 Volt. If you think to get that out of a 1000$ pack, think again.
No battery charger ? Are you kidding ? Electricity from the grid is very cheap and using the car engine to generate electricity to charge the batteries is not a suggestion I expect on this forum.

PS Ikcl, Major is from the "barkers don't bite" department. He plays the grumpy commenter. No prob with a critical comment. Better than being ignored!


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## lkcl (Sep 16, 2011)

WheelMotor said:


> Hey Ikcl, calm down, please.
> PS Ikcl, Major is from the "barkers don't bite" department. He plays the grumpy commenter. No prob with a critical comment. Better than being ignored!


ok. that's ok then. as long as you don't feel intimidated by him, and understand that he's just... being a grumpy commentator.


----------



## lkcl (Sep 16, 2011)

*Re: In Wheel Motor ... UNaffordable*



major said:


> I've been having fun with Mr. WheelMotor for 4 years on this thread. Lighten up, will ya?


ok. just... please be a bit more careful about the words you use. it looked to me like you were calling him stupid for even mentioning the article. that may not have been your intent, but that's how it came across. i have no idea that you know WheelMotor, do i? and other people coming in will see that post, and have no idea, either, will they?



> And as for the subject of that particular motor design attempt, I know what I'm looking at. It sucks. I'm not afraid to say so.


yeah i'm fine with that, too, but you didn't give any figures explaining the reasoning - just a conclusion that it was a "P.O.S". i thought it was yet another waste of time, too. direct drive motors just can't power a heavy car, efficiently. but on closer inspection i changed my mind, because it's an "assist" system. and that might actually be juuust enough "assist" during worst-case ICE conditions to make all the difference. we just don't know: we need to see the data.



> As for the 100% improvement claim, show me or go home.


we'll have to get the data directly from the University before jumping to conclusions, wouldn't you agree?



> I have done years of research and developed such hybrid systems (for commercial vehicles) and know you're not getting 100% from the likes of that.


no - you don't. you don't have the data (and neither do i). just because you or i haven't managed to come up with a solution doesn't mean that nobody else can, does it?



> I'm sure Middle Tennessee State U is a fine institution, but it is not an engineering school.


you know what? it's often people who haven't been told that something is impossible who actually manage to achieve it, simply because nobody told them there were any limits. i'm sure i've heard of cases (no, not "Good Will Hunting"  ) where students accidentally solved a maths problem that they thought was the class homework, but was actually a 100-year-old "impossible problem" being described to another class!

so... yeah, don't write them off just because they're not an "engineering school". if they were an "engineering" school, they probably would have been taught that what they were attempting to do was impossible. yet, it looks like they managed.

... then again, they might just not have the experience to accurately interpret the data they've produced! 



> That is not to say good things can't come from non-engineers, but that isn't the case here.


well, again: i'm sure they have actual figures - data which shows some test runs that they've done - which actually show a reduction in fuel usage, otherwise they wouldn't claim it! they do say *between* 50% and 100%, which to my mind means 1 of 2 things:

1) different vehicles get different improvements
2) vehicles driving on different types of routes will get different improvements

ok maybe 3:

3) they haven't the experience to properly interpret the data.

one thing they haven't said is whether they're fully-charging the batteries before leaving on each journey. that *always* messes with the figures, just like Chevrolet claiming the Volt did something ridiculous like 1,000mpg because they "forgot" to include the fact that the vehicle was charged up before leaving the house! whooops...

so yeah, i'd be interested to see some real fuel economy figures as well.

l.


----------



## lkcl (Sep 16, 2011)

JRP3 said:


> I think you are way out of line. Major has helped more people on this forum that almost anyone, and he was in no way bullying Wheelmotor. He stated his opinion on that system, it had nothing to do with WheelMotor.


 let's have a look at what he actually wrote.



> Hey Mr. WheelMotor,
> 
> Do you believe everything you read? That thing is a P.O.S.
> 
> ...


 do you understand that that appears to be very insulting?

he's saying "mr wheelmotor, you are incredibly stupid, because you appear to have insufficient intelligence to understand that not everything that you read is believable, because you cannot tell that this is a P.O.S. why did you even bring it to our attention?".

without knowing anything about either major or WheelMotor, that sentence appears to be *extremely* insulting.

do you understand that, JRP3?



> Further your idea that they can use the ICE to drag the rear wheels around and recharge the pack while technically feasible totally ignores the fact that doing so will completely kill any efficiency gains of the system, which will be minimal to begin with.


a) you don't know that, because you don't have access to the data.

b) the system they've come up with is effectively identical to a Prius. are you saying that a Prius (*1), with its Parallel-Hybrid drivetrain, "totally ignores all efficiency gains which are minimal to begin with"?

c) the only way that the gains would *definitely* not be made is if the efficiency of the direct-drive motor, or the efficiency of the 4-Quad Controller, was sub-standard. however: again, we cannot tell unless we have access to the data, and can see the quality of their work.

surely you must be familiar with how parallel hybrid systems work? using the ICE engine at its most optimally-efficient fuel consumption point to draw off a little bit of power in order to recharge the batteries, which then are only used at speeds and during conditions that are worst for ICE fuel efficiency (0-40mph), surely you must understand and appreciate that that's better than having the ICE operate all the time??

plus, once the batteries are charged, then you just switch off the 4-Quad controller and you're back to optimal fuel efficiency of the ICE. it doesn't take long, not for a small battery pack.

you're shown as being a "senior member" of this forum: i can't believe that you're saying that Parallel Hybrid systems are "totally inefficient under all conditions" (*1).

surely there must be some mistake or misunderstanding, yes?

l.

(*1) a Prius is a P.O.S. for *different* reasons. i know someone who had one and they were absolutely f*****g fed up with it. they sold it and used their wife's 50mpg 2nd-hand V.W. Polo instead. the reason? plain and simple: winter. the fuel economy of the Prius during winter was f*****g shit. absolutely shit. they got something like 30mpg out of it, because a) they had to run the heaters because it was so cold b) the batteries were severely degraded during winter. month by month they watched the fuel economy go back up, through february, march, april. by summer time it was back up to 60mpg - below its rated performance. they will *not* be buying a hybrid ever again.


----------



## major (Apr 4, 2008)

lkcl said:


> let's have a look at what he actually wrote.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Or maybe I was saying "I don't believe that article and don't think you should put much credence in it either" in a humorous manner to a guy who recently posted this in response to one of my grumps.



WheelMotor said:


> O o o ... My good old friends Major and JRP3 ....
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## PStechPaul (May 1, 2012)

I'm not going to get into this "pitching match", but I think the more technical parts of the discussion have merit. The percent improvement mentioned seems reasonable if the electric motor takes over most of the propulsion at very low speeds, and if such driving is a major portion of the entire profile. The regenerative charging might be most effective only during braking and long downhill coasting. Otherwise it would be best to use the ICE and an alternator and run it, with the clutch disengaged, at its most efficient point of RPM and power to charge the batteries optimally. This required some intelligent operator control, but that could just be prompted by an electronic display. 

I think a system like this could be effective even using much smaller electric motors. They could be used only for very mild acceleration and hill climbing ability, so even 200 lb of thrust, or 100 lb-ft per wheel, would be adequate on up to a 5% grade. If it is to be used only up to, say, 20 MPH, then that's about 300 RPM and only 6HP peak. This would be within the capability of a 500 Wh battery pack per wheel, which might cost $400, and at 20C it should provide 6HP. With a total of 1000 Wh, it would provide about 3 miles of range without recharging. But that's enough to get you through most stop-and-go traffic jams and you can always rev up the ICE with a 6kW alternator to charge up your battery pack in 10 minutes. 

I think a system like this might be built for less than $1000 per wheel, and sell profitably for maybe twice that. It's not going to save the world and it will only give you a big economy boost if you are always stuck in stop-and-go traffic. Or if you are a mail carrier or meter reader. And it will also give you a minimal backup system to carry you to a service station if your ICE breaks down. And it will give you additional traction on ice and snow. I might make/buy something like that!


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## lkcl (Sep 16, 2011)

major said:


> Or maybe I was saying "I don't believe that article and don't think you should put much credence in it either" in a humorous manner to a guy who recently posted this in response to one of my grumps.


ok - then that's fine, i have no problem with that as a clarification. apologies for the misunderstanding (to you and to everyone else who's been distracted by this). thank you major.


----------



## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

lkcl said:


> blah blah blah


Bottom line is you are overly sensitive, get over it. You are the only person who was "extremely" insulted, so it's your problem. You got yourself all worked up and derailed this thread, you think that was helpful?

As for the design, it is not a Prius, since it can't turn off the motor when stopped and it can't move under electric power alone. Efficiency gains will be minimal, and probably not worth the cost and effort.

By the way, some might find your rant about the Prius very offensive. I'm not one of them, but you are the last person who should be dictating how others should behave. (Worth noting that most Prius drivers don't report the same experience as you friend.)


----------



## lkcl (Sep 16, 2011)

JRP3 said:


> Bottom line is you are overly sensitive, get over it. You are the only person who was "extremely" insulted, so it's your problem.


i wasn't [personally insulted]. over the past 18 years i've seen enough bullying on public highly-technical forums - a lot of it directed at me, sometime at others. and because i've been subjected to bullying and harassment, it made me feel shit, so i don't like it happening to others. major's comment appeared to be insulting, and i couldn't let it pass. it turns out that a) it wasn't in the slightest bit intentional b) it wasn't perceived as such. so - no harm done. that's good.



> You got yourself all worked up and derailed this thread, you think that was helpful?


that remains to be seen. long-term, i believe it may. short-term i'm not so happy about the decreased S/N ratio: pee aitch pee bee bee forums aren't exactly the easiest communication systems, especially for highly-technical discussions. *hand-waving*. we'll see.



> As for the design, it is not a Prius, since it can't turn off the motor when stopped and it can't move under electric power alone. Efficiency gains will be minimal, and probably not worth the cost and effort.


again: you don't know that. you don't know if they've altered the accelerator or re-programmed the ECU so that it will prioritise power to the electric engine. if i was part of the team that's the first thing i'd look at doing.

even if they didn't do that [re-program the ECU or use a fly-by-wire-style accelerator], they could have the first part of the accelerator pedal's range run up much more HP to the back wheels than was provided by the ICE.

so there's a whole host of tricks that could be deployed, and we don't know what they've done, one way or the other, so really - please! stop making negative claims that you don't have any basis for making! goodness me.



> By the way, some might find your rant about the Prius very offensive. I'm not one of them, but you are the last person who should be dictating how others should behave. (Worth noting that most Prius drivers don't report the same experience as you friend.)


most of them won't live in the scottish highlands, so wouldn't encounter harsh enough winters for the battery performance to be so severely degraded, nor need the heating to be on at full power for the entire duration of the journey. so they simply would not encounter the problem.

one other possibility that occurred to me is this: they're quite an old couple. during winter, they might just have been running the heaters at levels above which "the average prius driver" simply doesn't need; they might also be... how to put this politely... um... shall we say "careful" drivers - you know the type i mean. the ones who've never, in their life, put "pedal to the plastic". under such circumstances, there's the distinct possibility that the batteries never got pushed hard enough to get up to optimal temperatures. we just don't know, but it's worth thinking about, for design of future vehicles.


----------



## seff (Jun 13, 2012)

JRP3 said:


> Bottom line is you are overly sensitive, get over it. You are the only person who was "extremely" insulted, so it's your problem. You got yourself all worked up and derailed this thread, you think that was helpful?


well, lkcl not "the only one" but i am on drugs so who want to listen me, right? )) well i see you guys already back to the discussion of the WM, that is kind of promising. so where are we? where are those rails?
ok, we now know that it is not exactly affordable, right?
what is next?


----------



## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

seff said:


> well, lkcl not "the only one" but i am on drugs so who want to listen me, right?


Now I understand why you might agree with lkcl....


----------



## seff (Jun 13, 2012)

JRP3 said:


> Now I understand why you might agree with lkcl....


you mean your previous gentle remark about someone been on drugs just because he have trouble with your grumbling? hehehe

did you noticed that you again ignored my question that are directly related to this particular place and again calling the names instead of staying on the "rails"?

i do think that lkcl overreacted, i have no trouble with Majors remark but guys he made a good point there your grumbling keeps positive people out of this forum and it is not good for the project.

so, could you cheer up just a little?


----------



## major (Apr 4, 2008)

seff said:


> .......... i have no trouble with Majors remark but guys he made a good point there your grumbling keeps positive people out of this forum and it is not good for the project.
> 
> so, could you cheer up just a little?


I try to grumble in a cheerful manner  My intent is to turn those positive people into realistic people. Time spent pursuing wheelmotors is wasted and non productive in regards to the do-it-yourself electric car conversion process.

Mr. WheelMotor (the OP) is different. His intent is to become a vendor of wheelmotors, not a do-it-himself converter. I actually think my comments can be helpful to him, even though those comments are negative concerning the product and application. Maybe I give him incentive to prove me wrong  Or point out a horrendous design, although it appears he can recognize such when he sees it.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

It seems that a few people don't understand that pointing out potential problems is actually *helpful*.  Mindless happy cheer leading gets you no where.


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## WheelMotor (Sep 16, 2008)

*In Wheel Motor ...conclusion: unaffordable !*

Ok ...
So, even on a DIY EV forum, except one, nobody want to spend realistic money to make his car hybrid ... 
The poll is a sad confirmation.

Not prepared to give simply up yet !
I will stop this thread probably and join or start an other non commercial one in this forum. If the WM approach has to many weaknesses, lets start again.
I want to make my car hybrid !

We need a solution that is:

Cheap
Retrofitable (without using a grinder )
Over the counter parts
Performing

Hey Seniors, is there already a thread in the sort of: "let's make a normal car hybrid" in this forum? (with adding parts only, letting the car intact as it is)


----------



## PStechPaul (May 1, 2012)

*Re: In Wheel Motor ...conclusion: unaffordable !*



WheelMotor said:


> Ok ...
> So, even on a DIY EV forum, except one, nobody want to spend realistic money to make his car hybrid ...


It is simply not economically or even environmentally reasonable to spend $10,000 or more to get a few percent better fuel economy and a few other benefits. I can purchase a car like my Saturn SL1 for well under $2000 and get 35 MPG average and 45-50 MPG on the highway. Even at $5/gallon I'd spend about $1500 to drive 10,000 miles or $0.15/mile and even a 100% plug-in electric still costs about $0.04/mile just for the juice, but the batteries will cost $0.10/mile. 

I'd be very interested in a bolt-on wheelmotor system for about $2500 that would mostly benefit stop/go driving and would provide 4WD and emergency alternate propulsion. Maybe you should start another thread under that more realistic premise and take a poll and start working out the technical details.


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

*Re: In Wheel Motor ...conclusion: unaffordable !*



WheelMotor said:


> We need a solution that is:
> 
> Cheap
> Retrofitable (without using a grinder )
> ...


I don't know of such a thread. There have been maybe a couple along those lines, but they are long dead. One was using a Warp9 motor in the driveshaft of a rear wheel drive SUV. 

I guess I didn't realize your motive was hybridization until now. 

FWIW, and it ain't much, check this out. 



Not quite as good as the MTSU motor, but similar. I have seen some other attempts connecting to the outside of the rear wheel, or adding a 5th wheel or a pusher trailer or a propeller. Nothing I consider worthwhile by a long shot.

There was a British company which a few years ago had a system which attached to front of the engine via a belt drive. They claimed impressive results and fairly low cost. You know me, I was skeptical of it. Appears like they dropped off the face of the earth.

I also met a fellow with a hydraulic system putting motors on the half shafts. He was developed to the point of prototyping. That was about 5 years ago. Lost track of him too.

About the only approach I see having true potential is tapping into the driveshaft on rear wheel drive vehicles, and that isn't what you're after. You know how to pick the easy projects 

major


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

*Re: In Wheel Motor ...conclusion: unaffordable !*



WheelMotor said:


> Ok ...
> So, even on a DIY EV forum, except one, nobody want to spend realistic money to make his car hybrid ...
> The poll is a sad confirmation.


You do understand that this is a DIY ELECTRIC car site, not a hybrid car site. The idea for most of us is to eliminate the ICE. Spending almost as much as doing a full EV conversion but ending up with something less desirable to most of us is not exactly a recipe for success. The fact is if you want a good hybrid in a similar price range you can buy a used one.


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## WheelMotor (Sep 16, 2008)

*Hybrid*

I like my Jaguar. I can't afford the newest Hybrid Lexus, Merc, BMW etc. 
If I could drive 100 miles with my car electric for a conversion cost of about 6000 Euro and if it would be legaly allowed in Belgium, than I would go imediatly 100% electric. But Hybrid is the next best thing. If I could do 10 miles around town pure electric and for the rest Parallel Hybrid for about 4000 euro : that would a be an excellent compromise. This is a subject for an EV forum, because the E-range will depend on the cash you can afford for the batteries. I will start a thread to brainstorm open about that. Not with the ambition to sell a set, just to have input and show my progression so that others can dream along.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

As long as you understand that most of the audience here doesn't have the same desires as you do, they are interested in EV's, which, not surprisingly, your poll reflects.


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## WheelMotor (Sep 16, 2008)

Crazy low budget electric help wheel.


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## PStechPaul (May 1, 2012)

I like the idea of the trailer hitch pusher attachment. But I think it would be best to have the wheels mounted on a lever and pushed under the vehicle in line with the existing rear wheels, which eliminates the steering problems and also the safety and visual aspects of what is essentially a trailer. 

It could be used as an emergency device, stored in the trunk and just slipped into the hitch receiver when needed. It could be designed only as a low speed high torque device that could push the vehicle to a place of safety. Or it could be mounted on a hydraulic or electromechanical arm which would contact the road surface when the speed drops below, say, 20 MPH. For maximum traction, or as an option in case of a rear wheel blowout, it could be made strong enough to lift the entire rear of the car. It would then become essentially a tricycle, with associated handling issues, but the existing rear wheels would be only a few inches off the pavement and would act as "training wheels". 

I'd be very interested in such a device. A conceptual prototype could be constructed for under $1000, and it would be easily adapted to any vehicle with a hitch receiver. I like it!


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## WheelMotor (Sep 16, 2008)

*A... much more affordable solution !*

PStechpaul, An evenly simple solution for all rear wheel driven cars, like mine, might be to simply ad a time belt to one of the rear cardan axles. In this way we can simply put any motor in the booth of the car. It also solves the problem of gearing and the expensive sealing rings of the motor (booth is clean and dry) and last but not least, we can replace the very expensive rear earth magnets of our motor, with very inexpensive Ferrite Magnets. Because we are no longer limited to the very tight space inside the wheel. I see some music in this !









Picture of Jaguar rear suspension courtesy of this website.


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## WheelMotor (Sep 16, 2008)

*let's go inside !*

A better solution, but slightly more complicated, is to ad an axle under the suspension in order to couple just before the rear diff. In this way we can put the car in neutral and drive 100% electric. Ooh they will love this in on this forum, he JRP3 ...


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

*Re: let's go inside !*



WheelMotor said:


> A better solution, but slightly more complicated, is to ad an axle under the suspension in order to couple just before the rear diff. In this way we can put the car in neutral and drive 100% electric. Ooh they will love this in on this forum, he JRP3 ...


Considering my advice now? 


major said:


> About the only approach I see having true potential is tapping into the driveshaft on rear wheel drive vehicles,...


Belt drives like that won't work, at least not for long. You'll need to gear couple or maybe an enclosed lubed steel chain.


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## WheelMotor (Sep 16, 2008)

*Re: let's go inside !*



major said:


> Considering my advice now?
> 
> Belt drives like that won't work, at least not for long. You'll need to gear couple or maybe an enclosed lubed steel chain.


Yes Major !









A man called Ian from this website : http://buggies.builtforfun.co.uk/
go to the site HERE pls, to see more info and nice pictures about what we are speaking here. Very interesting !


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

*Re: let's go inside !*



WheelMotor said:


> Ooh they will love this in on this forum, he JRP3 ...


That's getting closer, now just get rid of the ICE all together and build an EV 

At least you are seeing the benefits of not trying to use a wheel motor


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

*Re: let's go inside !*



major said:


> Belt drives like that won't work, at least not for long. You'll need to gear couple or maybe an enclosed lubed steel chain.


Why don't you think the belts will hold up? They are used on superchargers, and Roger White coupled two motors with a belt in his Fiero.
http://www.evalbum.com/1396


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## WheelMotor (Sep 16, 2008)

*Re: let's go inside !*



JRP3 said:


> That's getting closer, now just get rid of the ICE all together and build an EV
> 
> At least you are seeing the benefits of not trying to use a wheel motor


Yes the light has come late ! Now I sit with that old fashioned name : Wheelmotor. I have admin to ask to change it to EXwheelmotor !!!


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

*Re: let's go inside !*



JRP3 said:


> Why don't you think the belts will hold up? They are used on superchargers, and Roger White coupled two motors with a belt in his Fiero.


Yeah and Harley Davidson uses them. But for an automotive driveline, I don't think so. Your project; his project; go ahead I don't think it is a wise choice.


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## WheelMotor (Sep 16, 2008)

*on board Motor ... affordable*

According to this website: http://motorcycleinfo.calsci.com/Horsepower.html, the torque at the rearwheel (where the belt connects to the gearbox) goes till 1000 NM. The chart is in *foot-pound, *that converts to NM by approximate 1.35 . It makes no noice and needs no lubrication or adjustment. 









We can combine both solutions depending on price and availability. 
This chain gear set cost 170 euro HERE










My friend the mechanic is on his yearly holiday. I wanted to jump immediately to him to discuss this new direction in our Hybrid-izing project, but it will have to wait a bit.


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## WheelMotor (Sep 16, 2008)

*EV Motor ... affordable*

According to this article : 
*Design and Control of the Induction Motor*
* Propulsion of an Electric Vehicle*

We need 23 KW to drive 120 km/h with a car of 1500 kg. 
So ...
4 of these 6KW RC HobbyKing BLDC motors should theoretically suffice ???










We can ad water-cooling to them ....

THEY COST 76$ per piece x 4 = 304$ ... mm, spoken about affordable !!!
We need to ad a reduction of about 13 to 1 because these little screamers turn at 40.000 RPM. Diff is 2,8:1.​


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## PStechPaul (May 1, 2012)

I've been thinking about these:
http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/store/uh_viewitem.asp?idproduct=4652

They are 2kW but at 193k and 37V they are 7000 RPM which is more easily geared down. $52 each with discount. But it's an outrunner. I had an idea to use six of these mounted on the axle and use 12 tooth 20 pitch pinion gears on each shaft ($12 ea). Then use a gear rack on the inside of the brake drum which is probably about 12" diameter and would have 240 teeth, cost of about $35. A This would be a reduction drive of 20:1 so the wheel would turn at 350 RPM. So using this method a 12kW wheel motor could be constructed for about $419 in materials. 

It would not be too difficult to have 24 tooth and 36 tooth pinion gears on the motors and rig up a system that would shift gears by moving the motors radially and axially. These gears would add 6*$21 or $126 to get the second speed of 700 RPM and then 6*$31 or $186 to get a third speed of 1150 RPM.

This would not be a 15 minute bolt-on accessory but could be fairly easily made to replace the brake plate on the rear axle and the brake drum could be machined with the ring gear.

For caliper disk brakes you could mount the motors with the shafts on the outside of the disk, and you could just cut gear teeth on the outer circumference of the rotor. A simple machine shop operation and you retain the use of the brakes. The caliper may limit the number of motors, but you might be able to get larger ones or make do with three or four and lower power.

Here is my design for a wheel motor that I could build for a tractor application. These are three 1/4 HP (1/2 HP peak) 12VDC motors that I have. I'm showing three 12 tooth 20 pitch gears and one 60 tooth gear that is also the hub for the wheel. I'm showing an 8" pneumatic tire and wheel assembly from Harbor Freight, which has four bolts about as shown. The motors are mounted front and back on swivel arms so the pinion gears can swing out of the way. This is only a 5:1 reduction and my motors are 5000 RPM, so this will spin too fast and not have enough torque for a tractor. But this is just a concept.


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## WheelMotor (Sep 16, 2008)

*affordable*

Hi PStechPaul, happy to see that you also consider using Hobbyking motors.
At 52$ for 2kW we are at 26$ per KW and the in-runner of 6KW kost only 75$ that is less than half at 12.5$/KW. 
The excesive RPM of 1000RPM/V is a problem, but we connect before the diff. The Jaguar diff has a 2.8/1 reduction and a BMW 740 has a similar 3/1 reduction. So we need an extra 13/1 reduction in the trunk of the car. For this we need a 2 stage reduction of 2 X 3,6/1. That will make 2 chain gears with diameter of about 6 cm and 2 of 22 cm. but ...
It will look like this: (I made the gears proportional in dimension on the picture) 








But ... the top wheel will have to spin at 40000 RPM and IF that is possible ... I will have a noisy siren in my trunk 
This will happen at top speed of the system and that is about 120 km/h, question is if it will be more noisy than all the rest at that speed.


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## WheelMotor (Sep 16, 2008)

*affordable*

Let's not be pessimistic, this man has a jet turbine powered scooter with a gearbox. The turbine idles at 40.000 RPM and goes till 160.000 RPM. Not sure if that wine is the turbine or the gearbox ...


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## _GonZo_ (Mar 23, 2009)

Think this will be of your interest:

http://robotics.ee.uwa.edu.au/theses/2012-REV-InWheelMotor-Hooper-ME.pdf


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## WheelMotor (Sep 16, 2008)

_GonZo_ said:


> Think this will be of your interest:
> 
> http://robotics.ee.uwa.edu.au/theses/2012-REV-InWheelMotor-Hooper-ME.pdf


Thanks a lot GonZo !!!
I have to go, but can't stop reading! 

The article speaks about this RC BLDC Turnigy CA120-70 of *17KW* at "only" 10.000 RPM ! 
They discuss it on Endless-sphere.com (where the picture comes from).










Hobbyking price 450USD or 360 euro 

In the pdf article of *"The University Of Western Australia"* they conclude with proposing a WheelMotor with this Turnigy BLDC motor with gears. Very nice study! But still some way to go to make it weather prove.


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## WheelMotor (Sep 16, 2008)

*affordable*

So many people are busy with electrification ...

American Warren Beauchamp has a website about recumbent Bicycles and also studies the possabilities of gearing down RC BLDC's: 
This website : Recumbents.com


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## PStechPaul (May 1, 2012)

I've also been looking at these motors:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/380364297736










They have a 540kV version, 5500W, 80A, but that works out to 68V and 37,000 RPM. Still, not bad for $257 including controller and free shipping. I think there is a formula somewhere about gear and belt drive efficiency. For 100:1 reduction from a high speed motor to a wheel I would guess you might have only about 70% efficiency. 

This might be a better choice. It's 9HP PM 84V 4900 RPM for a starting bid of $300 + $59 shipping. But too big for a wheel motor, actually.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/170888695722
or a 2HP motor for $30 + $20 shipping
http://www.ebay.com/itm/120961125555

I still think, maybe, a multiple motor approach might be better. What is really needed is is reliable data and a good source of motors.

I found another motor that might be useful. It's 6600W 80kV 52V 4160 RPM maximum for $265:
http://hobbyking.com/hobbyking/stor...oMax_80cc_Size_Brushless_Outrunner_Motor.html

But if you can find three phase motors pretty cheap, *NEW* 1.5 HP 3400 RPM 56C $58 + $25 shipping:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/160652715791













Three of these per wheel would be 9 HP total which I think is plenty for a hybrid. $255/wheel.


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## WheelMotor (Sep 16, 2008)

_*Very pleasant reading about BLDC prototyping !!!*_
It is in German, if you don't speak it, please open in Google Chrome and translate to your language.

http://powerditto.de/experimente.html


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## _GonZo_ (Mar 23, 2009)

I been using a lot of RC Brush-less motors and controllers for quite long time, usually they are quite good quality motors and very efficient for the porpoise they are made, that is moving propellers or small RC cars.

The efficiency is achieved because they are made with very light and open housings for cooling, thin plates on the stator in order to minimize looses, and small ball-bearings in order to save weight.
But this type of motors will not stand continuous work as they will have to do on a car unless they are modified.

As well you have to know that the power rating of RC motors and controllers is not the same as industrial ratings, with this I mean that if an RC motors is rated to give 1000W means that is able to give up to 1000W for some seconds (about 10s usually) same for the controllers.
Usually when we install RC controllers if the motor is able to pull lets say 30A we instal one that is able to give up to 50A or more and usually modified with more heat-sink added to them.

The ball-bearings on RC motors are replaced every 20-30 hours of use.


----------



## PStechPaul (May 1, 2012)

Very valuable information! I think the same can be said for some of the cheap wheel motors and scooter parts advertised on eBay and elsewhere. They are certainly not designed to the same standards as industrial AC motors or DC forklift motors and others that are really intended for continuous use under often adverse conditions. It's really not wise to skimp on the motor or try to use something that was designed for hobby use or intermittent duty. Most of the cost and weight of an EV is still the batteries.


----------



## WheelMotor (Sep 16, 2008)

*we want it all*



_GonZo_ said:


> I been using a lot of RC Brush-less motors and controllers for quite long time, usually they are quite good quality motors and very efficient for the porpoise they are made, that is moving propellers or small RC cars.
> 
> The efficiency is achieved because they are made with very light and open housings for cooling, thin plates on the stator in order to minimize looses, and small ball-bearings in order to save weight.
> But this type of motors will not stand continuous work as they will have to do on a car unless they are modified.
> ...


Thanks for sharing your experience. We can learn from the RC motors. 
I am trying if I can not get one of the Chinese motor lamination factories to sell me a stator that they already make in big volumes for an other client, to serve as the base for a BLDC design. Now that we are no longer constrained to the limited space inside the Wheel, we can also use cheaper magnets that are more bulky for the same power ... 
If we combine all we learned so far, we could come up with a cheap compact liquid cooled BLDC that delivers enough power and RPM.

If somebody could help us out with following dilemma: 
We are able to model a BLDC inrunner (with an outside diameter of 400mm and a stack height of 400mm too) that can produce 100Kw, but ...
We seam to have to choose between torque and RPM. 
But we want lets say 500NM at 1000 RPM and 100Kw at 3000 RPM  
We are of course limited by the Battery Voltage. When the motor spins fast, it produces high back emf, that counters the battery voltage and prevents high current. So for high RPM we need mucho Volt !!! and that is expensive. But than ... the RC motors turn at 40.000 rpm with only 40 volt.


----------



## WheelMotor (Sep 16, 2008)

*affordable*

Before the trial ended I could still do this modeling:

it is a 60KW motor:


















If we make this motor liquid cooled and with the proper bearings etc, we can have a compact usable motor for our application. Will investigate lamination or ready to wire iron motor parts from this motor starting. It has ferrite magnets. Price is very important, because expensive efficient super BLDC's are available, but not affordable  
160 Volt battery and 600 amps. If we stay at 100 volt, we can not get sufficient RPM. I hear Major already thinking: 160 V and 600 amps is not 60KW. At max RPM the motor does not pull max amps, because of the controller settings and back emf. But we need the 600 amps to make at lower RPM the torque curve flat enough. Than with lower volt. The controller must limit the amps when needed, to spare the batteries.


----------



## major (Apr 4, 2008)

*Re: we want it all*



WheelMotor said:


> But than ... the RC motors turn at 40.000 rpm with only 40 volt.


 
PM motors essentially have a constant flux, Φ. And the motor has a machine constant (sometimes called the torque constant), Kt. The developed torque (Tem) = Kt * Φ * Ia where Ia is armature current. The generated voltage (Eg) = Kt * Φ * ω where ω = rotational velocity. The machine constant Kt is essentially the number of turns. For the particular PM motor, KtΦ is fixed and torque is proportional to current and voltage to speed.

So the little toy motor has a small value of flux and few turns therefore a small KtΦ resulting in a low torque per ampere and high RPM per volt.


----------



## _GonZo_ (Mar 23, 2009)

I know that the idea to use Wheel Motors is very attractive for electric vehicles due its simplicity. And actually they work very well on bicycles because they are very efficient vehicles.

Normal street cars are everything except efficient (Too heavy and bad aerodynamics) so I do not think that Wheel motors are the best solution for a conversion. May be as commented here they will be enough for a hybrid conversion.

Anyway my opinion is that Wheel Motors will be on future electric car as soon as we have produce lighter and much more efficient cars, that will happen quite soon, energy and raw materials crisis is hitting all society levels already... 

Technically talking I suggest for a DIY Wheel Motors to use industrial torque motors (quite big diameters and high poles count)
In order to give you some help I have been looking on some motors manufacturers and I think I have found some that will meet the needs of an electric vehicle.
This company provides them without housing so, if you have access to a good metal workshop will be not difficult to make the appropriate housing.
They are in-runners witch is very good because will simplify the cooling, actually I think if the motor is well matched to the duty (oversized) then only air cooling will be enough.
Link: http://www.alliedmotion.com/Products/Series.aspx?p=10&s=1

Looking into the list I think the model MF0410015B with around 30Kw peak power and 325Nm peak torque will do the job.

Although as I commented before I think that this motors will work really well on a light and aerodynamic car but not sure if they will perfrom really well on a normal street car.

Hope it helps.


----------



## PStechPaul (May 1, 2012)

Very good link. I wonder how much such motors cost?

I am still cheering for AC induction motors and switched reluctance designs because of various factors, but chiefly simplicity, ruggedness, and low cost.


----------



## WheelMotor (Sep 16, 2008)

_GonZo_ said:


> This company provides them without housing so, if you have access to a good metal workshop will be not difficult to make the appropriate housing.
> They are in-runners witch is very good because will simplify the cooling, actually I think if the motor is well matched to the duty (oversized) then only air cooling will be enough.
> Link: http://www.alliedmotion.com/Products/Series.aspx?p=10&s=1
> 
> ...


Difficult to find out what the motor really does. (Motor 25, because no graph of 15) has only 109NM at 600 RPM at 150 Volt on the graph. But in the text they claim from 129 continuous to 529 demag torque (we don't want to demagnetize the motor, so this number must be avoided) Or do I misunderstand the graph ? That would be 6 to 10 Kw without gearing ? Not ok for my 1800 Kg Jaguar. Do you have the price ?









Like you say Gonzo, cars should be light, but as long as there is not a ban on GM Silverado's and ford F's I don't want to drive on the same road with a with a super light Loremo. It is on the government to impose a maximum weight for cars. But I don't see that for the near future.


----------



## Nathan219 (May 18, 2010)

I have been thinking torque motors for some time now, but I would not use them as a wheel motor but a direct drive motor. High pole count allows them to make significant torque at low RPMs needed for direct drive. Future vehicle technology used direct drive axial flux motors on their Evaro car in the Xprize. FVT built their motors themselves anyone with the right machine skills can make these motors. http://www.phasemotorparts.com i bet many of the motors we buy actually come from this companies parts. If anyone has a torque motor designed for 20-40 kw and 600-800 rpm we reverse engineer it, and build a copy of it with the parts from this company, and save time.


----------



## _GonZo_ (Mar 23, 2009)

Sorry I do not have prices, just made a big search on torque motors and those ones where the ones that looked to me more adequate for the job. They have office on UK and Germany, so just make them a call and ask.

You can download more detailed info, on last pages you have more graph:
http://www.alliedmotion.com/Data/Documents/Megaflux_V2.pdf


----------



## Dean125 (Jan 5, 2008)

Very interesting post i must say, good luck on finding some affordable solution i cant wait to see the end result... just to give some ideas read an article of a MTSU professor Dr Perry making a very affordable plug in hybrid kit that will cost around $3000 WOW that is great but its not so strong to be autonomous it is intended to help the car engine and thats fine cos he says it can save you from 50-100% on petrol or diesel, here is the link from the article http://www.foxnews.com/leisure/2012...could-bring-millions-to-tennessee-university/ or watch the video http://youtu.be/uOA_i2qAQq0
Also here is another website for interesting concept of in wheel motor, look at the pic http://evworld.com/news.cfm?newsid=25224
Good luck guys i hope you find some solution that its going to be affordable and make the car totally electric so you can choose between car engine and in wheel motor when you are driving!


----------



## major (Apr 4, 2008)

Dean125 said:


> Very interesting post i must say, good luck on finding some affordable solution i cant wait to see the end result... just to give some ideas read an article of a MTSU professor Dr Perry making a very affordable plug in hybrid kit that will cost around $3000 WOW that is great but its not so strong to be autonomous it is intended to help the car engine and thats fine cos he says it can save you from 50-100% on petrol or diesel, here is the link from the article http://www.foxnews.com/leisure/2012...could-bring-millions-to-tennessee-university/ or watch the video http://youtu.be/uOA_i2qAQq0
> Also here is another website for interesting concept of in wheel motor, look at the pic http://evworld.com/news.cfm?newsid=25224
> Good luck guys i hope you find some solution that its going to be affordable and make the car totally electric so you can choose between car engine and in wheel motor when you are driving!


Hi Dean,

Nice to see you post again after 4 years. The MTSU joke was discussed back starting on post #233. And the other article is one and half years old containing the same old same old. Where are those 1000 wheelmotor cars to be made in 2011? And 100,000 by 2013 

Regards,

major


----------



## Dean125 (Jan 5, 2008)

Ha by the conversation there it looks like it is a joke but cos it is a professor you think there is something there, but who knows maybe he is smarter then all here and is up to something that can save some petrol money... yes it has been 4 years i was just looking about in wheel motors and came up to this place and i didnt even knew i was registered with this flippin forum  haha


----------



## WheelMotor (Sep 16, 2008)

*BLDCM affordable*

It is not easy to get some small quantity of Electro steel to laminate your own BLDC stator. For this reason certain types of BLDC motor driven washing machines are even scavenged to rewind the stator. 








The company ThyssenKrupp is prepared to help us out and I will update with the progression.


----------



## WheelMotor (Sep 16, 2008)

*BLDC inrunner affordable*

Hi guys,

The latest evolution of our BLDC inrunner modeling has resulted in:

A motor of only 210 mm outside diameter x 250 mm long.
140 Volt 600 Amps max.
400 NM from 0 to 500 RPM and than sloping down to 130 NM at 4000 RPM !
Water cooled and specially winded.

We are now in the price negotiations for the electro steel lamination purchase and cutting. 

Once we can make the motor we can measure how long this liquid cooled bomb can deliver its 60KW before overheating. We developed some very "cool" liquid cooling system for the motor, so we hope that it can have a very high power out for at least 8 seconds. By than the batteries (that we can afford) run hot too.

My latest way of thinking to make my Jaguar Hybrid, is to replace the Air conditioning pump by this BLDC-M. I live in a cold country. So it will be geared and from standstill the jag will have 400NM + about 100 NM from the IC motor. You remember our torque discussion: 500 NM geared !  I want than to regulate the throttle so that the electric motor does the hard work under acceleration and than the IC takes over ... Pitty that REG braking will be hindered by the Jags torque converter in the autobox.


----------



## WheelMotor (Sep 16, 2008)

*Very good price motors with controller*

Look at these prices !!! Controller inclusive !!!








http://www.electriccarpartscompany.com

67 HP for 4300$ controller inclusive.


----------



## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Yes, you've just discovered the HPEVS motors, that many of us have been using for years


----------



## major (Apr 4, 2008)

JRP3 said:


> Yes, you've just discovered the HPEVS motors, that many of us have been using for years


Active thread: http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showthread.php?t=75603


----------



## ricklearned (Mar 3, 2012)

*Re: BLDCM affordable*



WheelMotor said:


> It is not easy to get some small quantity of Electro steel to laminate your own BLDC stator. For this reason certain types of BLDC motor driven washing machines are even scavenged to rewind the stator.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Four years ago Major said, good luck with the technical issues. Quid errat demonstratum. (sp?)

Nevertheless I admire you perserverance.


----------



## WheelMotor (Sep 16, 2008)

*Re: BLDCM affordable*



ricklearned said:


> Four years ago Major said, good luck with the technical issues. Quid errat demonstratum. (sp?)
> 
> Nevertheless I admire you perseverance.


Thanks for your thoughts. 
At the end of the day, this is a DIY forum and most of us are amateurs. I am doing it as a hobby and I learn along the way. I write here just a diary of my quest to try to make a really affordable BLDC motor. Of course, the industry is for serious business and big money. But I have time. 
Our latest setback came yesterday, when an acquaintance that should do the water-jet cutting of the lamination wanted a healthy 1750 euro for it.  
But I am contacting every day a company here and there and sooner or later we find solutions within the budget. Because that is all what this thread is about: Try to make a big DIY BLDC motor for a really affordable price. In or outside the wheel.
My friend Seff and I spend every day several hours on this BLDC motor.


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## WheelMotor (Sep 16, 2008)

*affordable !*

And today we got also good news !
The company "Laser Laminations Inc" from the place Warrior in Alabama USA gave us an "affordable" quote for the lamination of our stator. Work of cutting and steel included 560 Euro !








Rest the problem of shipping this (probable weight 10 Kg) stator from the US to Belgium. 
If anybody has an idea about this, pls help !


----------



## Nathan219 (May 18, 2010)

Does anyone have experience ordering motor parts from http://www.phasemotorparts.com? That understands what to order to get the parts made for a specific set of desired performance specs.


----------



## WheelMotor (Sep 16, 2008)

*Phase motion control ningbo ltd*



Nathan219 said:


> Does anyone have experience ordering motor parts from http://www.phasemotorparts.com? That understands what to order to get the parts made for a specific set of desired performance specs.


Are you in contact with this company Nathan ? I wrote them an email but they never answered. What do you want to buy from them ? Do they make also prototypes ?


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## PStechPaul (May 1, 2012)

I just spoke with http://www.laserlaminations.com/index.html and they seem very responsive and reasonable. I was able to get a ballpark price for my switched relucance motor of about $475 for the stator and $150 for the rotor, based on 6" OD and 6" stack of 0.014" 29 gauge laminations.

I also spoke with someone at http://www.laminationspecialties.com/ and they said a similar set of parts would be between $400 and $1000. So also in the same ballpark.

Another option is www.emachineshop.com. I got an on-line quote for a possible SR motor design as follows, which is for 64 sets (2" stack) of 1/32" thick, for $458:










For a complete set of 128 pairs 1/32" thick (4" stack), the cost is about $1150:










This design is 8" diameter.


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## Nathan219 (May 18, 2010)

I contacted them they needed more design parameters then I have time to provide. It sounds like they can build anything you want, I just don't know exactly what I want, I know the design goals I have, but I don't know what that translates to in physical dimensions. If you have the physical dimensions and materials chosen I think the sky is the limit. They build for other manufactures so they don't have a product line.


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## _GonZo_ (Mar 23, 2009)

Let me bring an issue here, and an idea.

Electric motors as well as IC motors have a characteristic that is they give the best efficiency at certain point, usually on a narrow portion of their rpm range.
IC motors are helped with gear boxes in order to maximize that efficiency, as well most of conversions here use the original donor car gear box in order to maximize motor efficiency and performance.
As higher is the revolutions the motor can work more narrower proportionally relatively to the vehicle speed the efficiency range is so more gears are needed.

The advantage of electric motors is that they are able to give top torque at 0 rpm so they can be used with out gears, but that does not mean that is the most efficient way to use them on an electric vehicle as they are going to have to work on different rpm ranges, so a designed electric motor made to work efficiently at high speed will not be efficient when working at low speeds and vice-versa.

Due the limits of battery size and other limitations, we have to find the most efficient way to run electric vehicles so the best will be to use electric motors with gear boxes, but then on wheel motors will not be and easy task.

So when we talk about wheel motors without gear box if you design a vehicle and motors that are intended to be used on urban areas only then you will install a wheel motors that are able to move you from 0Km/h to lets say 70Km/h so you will choose a high winding motor that will give you good torque for accelerations and best efficiency will be around 50 to 60Km/h
Instead if you want a highway vehicle then the best will be to choose lower winding motors so you will get higher speed efficiency lets say 80 to 110Km/h at the expense of bad efficiency at lower speeds and acceleration.
So what motor design to choose ???? I think this problem appears every time that anyone try to design a wheel motor.

I propose that instead of using a mechanical gear box, to use a subterfuge, an "electric" gear box, let me explain.

It is possible by an electronic way two switch the motors windings and there is two ways to do the switching:
From a Delta configuration to a Y (Star) configuration.
From a series to a parallel of the winding, pair winding necessary for this case.
In other words you can have for example a 10KV and 20KV motor installed on the vehicle at the same time just by adding some electronics to the system.

In order to understand better what I have proposed I have run a simulation of a series/paralel (A/B) switching configuration motor, please note the efficiency curves (green) and torque curves (blue)


----------



## PStechPaul (May 1, 2012)

I don't think it would be practical for a three phase induction motor or BLDC, but for a brushed DC motor this might be reasonable. You could essentially connect for a (say) 24 VDC 500 A motor for low RPM and high torque with half the resistance and therefore better efficiency, and then connect as a 48 VDC 250 A motor for higher speeds and lower torque (and current). 

But your curves don't look like those of an ACIM, which has constant maximum torque up to the field weakening point. The efficiency will always be poor (zero in fact) at startup because it will be zero velocity, and then as constant torque is maintained the efficiency will increase because the losses will be essentially constant and any increased speed results in more power.


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## WheelMotor (Sep 16, 2008)

Gonzo, I agree with your idea and I have thought along the same line. In a BLDC-M you have, as you say, to choose between "a high winding motor that will give you good torque for accelerations" and "lower winding motors so you will get higher speed efficiency". So I consider to start with 6 windings and 10 strands and than at 2500 RPM I want to *DISENGAGE* (not short circuit) 2 windings. This should give the best of both worlds.










I also "evolved" and want no longer to put the motor non-geared in the wheel. Oh no ! 500NM of starting torque is niiiiiice ... through a gearbox. We have to go for the fun, because green is good, but funny green is better !


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## WheelMotor (Sep 16, 2008)

*Switched Reluctance Motor*



PStechPaul said:


> I just spoke with http://www.laserlaminations.com/index.html and they seem very responsive and reasonable. I was able to get a ballpark price for my switched relucance motor of about $475 for the stator and $150 for the rotor, based on 6" OD and 6" stack of 0.014" 29 gauge laminations.
> 
> I also spoke with someone at http://www.laminationspecialties.com/ and they said a similar set of parts would be between $400 and $1000. So also in the same ballpark.
> 
> ...


Very interesting PSTP ! 
We also considered an SRM, but although in mass production it probably is the new way forward, for us DIY-guys it looked to sophisticated. The controller is also complex and not used in the hobby world. More expensive ? Noise might also be an issue. But at least you get rid of the magnets !
Please update us here on your progression or let us a link if you open a thread with your Switched Reluctance Motor.

Look the Belgian website : http://www.punchpowertrain.com/


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

WheelMotor said:


> ..........at 2500 RPM I want to short 2 windings.


I really want to see that. Shorted windings (coils) and PM motors don't mix well at all


----------



## WheelMotor (Sep 16, 2008)

*tell me why*



major said:


> I really want to see that. Shorted windings (coils) and PM motors don't mix well at all


Why not ?


----------



## piotrsko (Dec 9, 2007)

*Re: tell me why*



WheelMotor said:


> Why not ?



Can you say Back EMF?


----------



## WheelMotor (Sep 16, 2008)

*Be friendly and constructive pls !*



piotrsko said:


> Can you say Back EMF?


Piotrsko, if you want to constructively contribute to the discussion, you are welcome. But pls express yourself politely. 

Update:
My Ukrainian friend says it is only a language issue. In that case no prob !


----------



## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

LOL, yes, that was not an insult.  Back Electromotive Force = Back EMF.


----------



## _GonZo_ (Mar 23, 2009)

Hold on a moment so you may understand better what I am proposing, because I think there is some misunderstanding.

This modification on the windings is not the same as having a real gear box on a motor, because a gear box really changes the amount of torque that we have at the wheel.
And as we are not changing the magnets (if they are) or the quantity of cooper inside the motor, the power and torque of the motor is the same, what it changes is the way it delivers it and the efficiency points.

After looking a bit more deep in it I think the best will be a parallel/series winding switching.
On my point of view parallel/series switching may act quite similar to a mechanical gearing on a IC motor, but we have to change the way we think about it because IC motors and EM have a big difference, IC motors gives you the max torque at high speed (Usually around 3000rpm) while EM gives you max torque at low speed (It can be said 0rpm)
So the points in order to get a more sporty or economy results from the motor are different and actually quite opposite.

We are all used to drive IC motors and when we want to drive more sporty we change gears at high revs, and when we want to drive economy we change gear at low rev (Up to a certain point) on EM it is completely different then, looking at this particular case:
If you want to get out the best performance out of the motor (Sporty) you should change "gear" at the point where torque curves meet.
If you want to get the best efficiency out of the motor (Economy) then you should change gear where the efficiency curves meet.

And now in order to do a series/parallel switching first you need a pair number of windings, for example 6 turns like you said WheelMotor, then you will be able to reduce them to 3, but not to 2 turns as you may desire.
As well you can consider an 8 turns winding, and switch to 4 turns and to 2 turns, that will be something like a 3 "gears" electric motor and this option may be even really interesting, but may be too complicate as you will have 21 power cables coming out of the motor 

I am thinking about doing some testing on a small RC motor to see how this goes.


----------



## PStechPaul (May 1, 2012)

I think you are talking about a brushed DC traction motor and in that case series and parallel windings might make sense. For a wound rotor you might even be able to have two or more sets of brushes. But for a motor which uses a rotating field in the stator (such as a BLDC or ACIM), the speed and torque are determined by the number of magnetic poles in the stator. Multi-speed induction motors exist (like many fan motors) but they are very inefficient and mostly for low power (FHP) applications.

I am thinking that the switched reluctance motor may be capable of multi-speed operation and a very high torque. Consider the following:










The operation shown requires six different states for a single revolution. But as the motor gets up to speed it may be possible to drive it by simply applying two states, one for 0 degrees, and the other for 180 degrees. But the speed is really only limited by how fast the drive electronics can switch the fields, so this may not really matter. And I think such a motor, with all of the fields fully magnetized, would have enormous torque compared to other motors where at any given moment only about 1/3 of the windings are being driven. This motor could be driven to "lock" in any of the positions shown, and the drive current could be varied using PWM techniques so that it would only pull whatever power is actually needed to maintain that position. And intermediate positions could be obtained by applying different PWM values to adjacent poles (much like microstepping of a stepper motor). That's what this is, actually, but without magnets.


----------



## _GonZo_ (Mar 23, 2009)

May be I did not explain it correctly but, I am talking about brush-less motors.
And not saying to use two different windings in the motor and switch from one to another.
It is the same full winding the ones that changes configuration, so always all cooper inside the motors is used.

I will try to make a drawing to make it more visual.

That switched reluctance motor looks very interesting.


----------



## seff (Jun 13, 2012)

so grasping the idea that fewer turns will mean "less" backEMF is somehow difficult for a "big" guys ))
























it is just an illustration that we can go higher rpms with exactly the same motor.
will it be better? probably not
but the point of discussion is here not in the repeating of the "magic" phrase "backEMF" etc.


----------



## major (Apr 4, 2008)

seff said:


> ............but the point of discussion is here not in the repeating of the "magic" phrase "backEMF" etc.


Hi seff,

What is the point? Mr. WheelMotor asked "why not", so use your fancy program to show him what his 2 shorted windings will do. 

Thanks,

major


----------



## seff (Jun 13, 2012)

isn't it just what i did? or you are hooked up on this "repeating" stuff too? )))


----------



## major (Apr 4, 2008)

seff said:


> isn't it just what i did? or you are hooked up on this "repeating" stuff too? )))


Show me where you "short" 2 windings. Shorting a winding is very different from changing the "number of turns".


----------



## seff (Jun 13, 2012)

major said:


> Show me where you "short" 2 windings. Shorting a winding is very different from changing the "number of turns".


my guess WM meant exactly that he will try to make it in a way that it will be equivalent to the "less turns", not the less "windings". how he plans to do that? well, let WM elaborate on this meter ))
lost in translation i guess.
not a problem


----------



## major (Apr 4, 2008)

seff said:


> my guess WM meant exactly that he will try to make it in a way that it will be equivalent to the "less turns", not the less "windings". how he plans to do that? well, let WM elaborate on this meter ))
> lost in translation i guess.
> not a problem


Even with language difference, speaking of things electrical, short means short circuit 



WheelMotor said:


> .... at 2500 RPM I want to short 2 windings.


----------



## seff (Jun 13, 2012)

major said:


> Even with language difference, speaking of things electrical, short means short circuit


you are right, we all should be more careful with the common terms ))

but what term will you use to describe getting rid of the 2 from the 6 turns to make 4 turns effective electrically?


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## WheelMotor (Sep 16, 2008)

Gonzo, I understand you very well, you want to switch the motor from Star to Delta, in use. All my modeling was done in Star. The JMAG Public soft could not model in Delta. 









See full size image on Endless-sphere









On the RC Clubs forum of the HobbyKing website, there is very interesting reading about Star/Delta in BLDC motors 
Member IBCrazy explains that : 
<<Delta - Most common commercial termination. has three leads and no neutral piont. Spins 1.7 times faster than a WYE termination.
WYE (star) - Less common in commercial motors. More efficient in some cases. Has 1.7 times more torque than Delta >>
The reason is of course Back EMF like some are already singing in previous replies. 


What I wanted to do, and that has a similar result, is to *DISENGAGE* on every coil 2 of the 6 windings. Your proposition Gonzo is more obvious and probably better, we have to test in action .


----------



## major (Apr 4, 2008)

WheelMotor said:


> Gonzo, I understand you very well, you want to switch the motor from Star to Delta, in use. All my modeling was done in Star. The JMAG Public soft could not model in Delta.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


As soon as you throw the switches, it will come to a sceeching stop


----------



## seff (Jun 13, 2012)

major said:


> As soon as you throw the switches, it will come to a sceeching stop


and why exactly you think it will stop?

look, if we considering ourself somehow adult don't you think that we should elaborate a bit on our "yes" or "no"?


----------



## major (Apr 4, 2008)

seff said:


> and why exactly you think it will stop?
> 
> look, if we considering ourself somehow adult don't you think that we should elaborate a bit on our "yes" or "no"?


If you kids want to play with electric motors it is fine with me. You should be able to get your hands on a PM motor (of any type or size). Start rotating the shaft by hand and short the terminals. See what happens. Then figure out why and what would have happened at 2500 RPM. That demonstration will be worth a lot more than my explanation.


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## seff (Jun 13, 2012)

major said:


> If you kids want to play with electric motors it is fine with me. You should be able to get your hands on a PM motor (of any type or size). Start rotating the shaft by hand and short the terminals. See what happens. Then figure out why and what would have happened at 2500 RPM. That demonstration will be worth a lot more than my explanation.


So you do think that WM will actually use some "kids" to short those terminals? ))) and that is your reason?


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

seff said:


> So you do think that WM will actually use some "kids" to short those terminals? ))) and that is your reason?


This language thing is worse than I thought  Kids, adults, WTH. If you don't know how a shorted coil behaves moving though a magnetic field, maybe you should not be designing motors


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

Major could you maybe explain your last couple of posts? I think you're suggesting the motor would be shorted out and lock but from how you're posting lately its a little hard to understand what your meaning is.

Theres also no need to refer to anyone as 'kids'. If they want to try building this motor than what's the harm?


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

david85 said:


> Major could you maybe explain your last couple of posts? I think you're suggesting the motor would be shorted out and lock but from how you're posting lately its a little hard to understand what your meaning is.
> 
> Theres also no need to refer to anyone as 'kids'. If they want to try building this motor than what's the harm?


I apologize. I'll just leave this thread alone. I should have done that long ago. I was just trying to help.


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## seff (Jun 13, 2012)

major said:


> This language thing is worse than I thought  Kids, adults, WTH. If you don't know how a shorted coil behaves moving though a magnetic field, maybe you should not be designing motors


come on man, i just wanted to soften a bit your direct insult ))
we are not your enemies so please act accordingly


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

Just let it go, and move on, ok guys?


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## McRat (Jul 10, 2012)

Crazyiness -

When you put a load on a steel radial, the steel develops a magnetic field. Don't ask me why, but it does. It make you wonder if a tire itself could ever be used as a rotor by manipulating the tire construction itself.


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## McRat (Jul 10, 2012)

As far as Major goes, he's a lot of help to me and I assume many others. If he can be abrasive, welcome to the internet. We have a transmission guy who is the best in the business and helps others freely, but often gets aggressive on the web. We enjoy having him as a member, despite the fact he PO's some folk. 

Everything is a balancing act.


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## WheelMotor (Sep 16, 2008)

*What ever we do, let's keep it fun !!!*

I don't like to be upset, or in a fight. So let's do this as a happy hobby. And if we make some mistakes along the way ... we will learn from it. But let's keep it funny. 

I corrected my original post. Shorting was of course wrong. Let's call it disengaging. I replaced the simple on/of by an SPDT switch . The drawing was only to illustrate the basic idea.


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## PStechPaul (May 1, 2012)

There is really no inherent advantage to switching out turns as you show. You might be able to run the motor on a lower voltage, but for the same power you will not be using part of the winding and the efficiency will be less. It's really a matter of ampere-turns, so you could have six turns at 10 amps or four turns at 15 amps and the motor would run the same. But if the wire size is the same then the four turns will dissipate more wasted heat. The only practical way to do this is a series/parallel connection. But since you need to do this for three windings you need a total of nine switches, and for a low voltage EV motor they need to be rated for high current. And there are losses in conact resistance. And if any one of those switches fail, the motor (and maybe the controller and battery pack and even the car and driver) may be toast. 

It makes more sense to have a series/parallel switch on the battery pack but even with that the PWM ontroller will adjust battery current for the needs of the motor. 

It MIGHT be possible to bring out more than the usual three poles of a BLDC motor and connect them for different numbers of effective poles and thus different speed/torque characteristics. But again you have the problems of multiple switches. A mechanical transmission or torque multiplier still seems the best way to go.


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## WheelMotor (Sep 16, 2008)

*BLDC-M torque curve*



PStechPaul said:


> There is really no inherent advantage to switching out turns as you show. You might be able to run the motor on a lower voltage, but for the same power you will not be using part of the winding and the efficiency will be less. It's really a matter of ampere-turns, so you could have six turns at 10 amps or four turns at 15 amps and the motor would run the same. But if the wire size is the same then the four turns will dissipate more wasted heat. The only practical way to do this is a series/parallel connection. But since you need to do this for three windings you need a total of nine switches, and for a low voltage EV motor they need to be rated for high current. And there are losses in contact resistance. And if any one of those switches fail, the motor (and maybe the controller and battery pack and even the car and driver) may be toast.
> 
> It makes more sense to have a series/parallel switch on the battery pack but even with that the PWM ontroller will adjust battery current for the needs of the motor.
> 
> It MIGHT be possible to bring out more than the usual three poles of a BLDC motor and connect them for different numbers of effective poles and thus different speed/torque characteristics. But again you have the problems of multiple switches. A mechanical transmission or torque multiplier still seems the best way to go.


Thanks Paul for your kind explanation. The idea of switching off 2 of the 6 turns comes from the JMAG simulations. As you can see on the graph that I posted it would significantly extend the torque curve to the higher RPM's. You say: "six turns at 10 amps or four turns at 15 amps" (behaves the same) ... But the back EMF generated by 4 turns at 4000 RPM, is less than that generated by 6 turns ? 
I agree with you that the electronics needed to switch, are a big problem and the first prototype I will wind and make all the coils externally connectable, so that we can play with the connection diagram. 
In general we can say that BLDC motors have the problem that the torque curve slopes down as the RPM rises. But we need high torque at low RPM and still good torque at 4000 RPM.
But Gonzo's suggestion to Star Delta switch might be better !


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## _GonZo_ (Mar 23, 2009)

The ones that say that we will have problems with the Back EMF if the winding are modified while the motor is running are provably very right, and it is something that will need to be study in order to be solved.

What I proposed was not to switch off some of the turns of the winding like on WM proposal drawings, the reason why not to do that was perfectly explained by Paul already, less copper used in the motor = less efficiency... 

I made a drawing of the idea, hope it is clear, it is only for one of the motor phases, it needs two switches per phase, position A of the switches you have the windings in series, position B you have the windings in parallel.
On both cases all copper on the motor is used. So you can have for example a 6 turns and a 3 turns motor in one. (or a 2/1 or 4/2 or 8/4 or 10/5, etc.)

Sorry I do not have any design program on the computer that I am using now so I had to go throw the old stile.


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## seff (Jun 13, 2012)

*Re: BLDC-M torque curve*

want to say thanks PStechPaul for the explanation on the efficiency part.
i will go as GonZo old style )) sorry about that










so,yes, sure we have already 6 conditional switches just to run this thing up.
how hard is to add 3 more switches theoretically speaking?
theoretically it is NOT hard.
will added complexity be justified by the added performance?
that is the question ))

forgive me but answering to this question by the "can you say Back EMF?" is like answering "what are you thinking about?" on the received by radio "we are sinking, we are sinking!" from the great advertisement of some language school ))

i see no harm in the WM's quest to improve the thing even though sometimes it looks more like marketing campaign than anything else to me ))

anyway, we all will progress if we will make an effort to understand each other and it will be much easier to understand each other if we will try to actually express ourself.
just saying that "i am right" not necessarily makes others to see your point.
there is no offense or disrespect in this fact.

"how i suppose to understand you if you saying nothing?"


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## WheelMotor (Sep 16, 2008)

*series / parallel*



_GonZo_ said:


> The ones that say that we will have problems with the Back EMF if the winding are modified while the motor is running are provably very right, and it is something that will need to be study in order to be solved.
> 
> What I proposed was not to switch off some of the turns of the winding like on WM proposal drawings, the reason why not to do that was perfectly explained by Paul already, less copper used in the motor = less efficiency...
> 
> ...


Great brain storming GonZo !
Indeed it would be not to smart to just disable the 2 windings. 
My JMAG sim is expired so i can not test your idea, but it is the way to go.


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## _GonZo_ (Mar 23, 2009)

This option looks very interesting, chassis bolt in and there you go...

http://en.ecomove.dk/article/157113-ecomove-offers-independently-powered-wheels-for-evs


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## hal2000 (Nov 15, 2012)

What do you think they have running that, a geared in runner? It looks like they used flat carbon fiber springs,elegant for a light weight vehicle. Do you think the springs penetrate the chassis mounting plate or cantilever off of it? 
This design seems to address at least two of the weaknesses of hub motors, high unsprung weight and high rotational mass. The fact remains, however, that you are still left with at least twice, and possibly four times the complexity of a single motor controller driving a single gearbox. This fact leads me to believe that wheel motors are something of a golden fleece, luring dazzled EV,rs onto the hidden rocks of unanticipated complexity and cost. After all, this is where the rubber hit the road, literally. Can you imagine how much fun it would be to accidentally run over a curb....and end up buying a $2,000 motor instead of a $200 rim? These motors would have to be incredibly tough, and fault tolerant, yet be light, and cheaper than a single motor gearbox combo, as you will have at least two of them. The design criteria seem to me to be contradictory. I think that is why Major keeps picking at this thread like a an itch he can't scratch, check your history, a lot of big names have tried their hand at nesting this fish, the waters vary deep. What is that saying I hear on endless sphere, Concerning electric bikes? Cheap,fast, or good, pick any two. You can't have all three. I'd wish you good luck, but many on here have done so, instead I'll hope you have deeper pockets than Michelin or Protean who have put a lot of quarters into this slot machine already.


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## WheelMotor (Sep 16, 2008)

*The hidden rocks of unanticipated complexity and cost.*

"WM's ... luring dazzled EV,rs onto the hidden rocks of unanticipated complexity and cost." 

Couldn't have said it better !


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## sunworksco (Sep 8, 2008)

I would rather bolt my jackhammer to my hub !
Good steering and handling is all about unsprung weight.


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## hal2000 (Nov 15, 2012)

Of course WM's, (like the girls in the Sports Illustrated swimsuit edition) are incredibly alluring, I'm sure she doesn't have a boyfriend.... and yes ...I'd love to be able to swap out my two back tires, throw a suitcase of batteries in the trunk, and have an instant load sensing, power assist, hybrid...I still believe in Santa Claus, let me know when you need a beta tester!


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## sunworksco (Sep 8, 2008)

I very much do give them credit for using fiberglass leaf springs, to lighten the weight. The vehicle that they are using is very lightweight.

http://en.ecomove.dk/article/157178

It also appears, looking at their website, that they are using INREKOR aluminum polyethylene foam sandwich construction in their chassis and body. Check out the video of the wheel motor.
This is what I am planning to use in my EV chassis. It is the lightest, strongest and affordable foam sandwich panel. You can even fabricate it yourself with two part epoxy, powder-coating oven and multi-ton press.


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## WheelMotor (Sep 16, 2008)

*dreams*

This super design is as far away from my retrofit wheelmotor as ... a pancake from a steak !


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## ruckus (Apr 15, 2009)

What about this guy? Just blowing smoke? I don't believe 1 motor that small can be 110hp, but 4 might.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=ZnhmND1KQ_4


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

ruckus said:


> What about this guy? Just blowing smoke? I don't believe 1 motor that small can be 110hp, but 4 might.


It has been covered here. PML Flightlink. Bankrupt, several times now, I think. Four or five years ago they gave me a quote of $35,000 each. SOS, same old stuff.


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## ruckus (Apr 15, 2009)

So these guys put on a suit and drag a bunch of stuff (including a new F-150 with no engine (or batteries) to a convention and put up a nice display all to sell..... vaporware at unobtanium prices??

What is the point of that? Is it just an investor scheme?

I guess I am just a nave. Thinking you have to have a product before you can sell it...


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## PStechPaul (May 1, 2012)

It seems a bit fishy to me. It's a fluid cooled motor, so there is the issue of running hoses to it, and it takes 168 amps at 380 VDC to produce its rated 64 kW (86 HP) continuous. And they pack the controller into the hub assembly, and it's only 65 lb and fits inside a standard wheel? Seems unlikely. And there is also the issue of sealing the motor against water, sand, and other contaminants. I found a video on their site showing their F150 pickup truck (440 HP!) driving in the snow, and I think it illustrates the probablility that this could be a problem :

http://www.proteanelectric.com/?page_id=46&cat=38


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## ruckus (Apr 15, 2009)

If yer gonna run wires to each wheel, a coolant hose is no more demanding.

Their website certainly looks convincing... Opening a factory in China..


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## Karter2 (Nov 17, 2011)

PStechPaul said:


> It seems a bit fishy to me. It's a fluid cooled motor, so there is the issue of running hoses to it, and it takes 168 amps at 380 VDC to produce its rated 64 kW (86 HP) continuous. And they pack the controller into the hub assembly, and it's only 65 lb and fits inside a standard wheel? Seems unlikely. And there is also the issue of sealing the motor against water, sand, and other contaminants. I found a video on their site showing their F150 pickup truck (440 HP!) driving in the snow, and I think it illustrates the probablility that this could be a problem :
> 
> http://www.proteanelectric.com/?page_id=46&cat=38


 sure, the thought of all that electronics and power circuits being exposed to the vibration and environment of a road wheel...leaves me highly skeptical ( to say the least.)
400volts and 200amps via some very flexible connections ! 
But this may give us some hope ..
http://www.proteanelectric.com/?page_id=46&cat=41


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## WheelMotor (Sep 16, 2008)

Don't underestimate these people! The pancake motor they introduced some years ago was very sophisticated. The ironless core was super light, no iron losses  but complex and probably mechanically not up to the task. I never saw a mini doing that 4 sec from 0 to 100 acceleration.


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

WheelMotor said:


> Don't underestimate these people! The pancake motor they introduced some years ago was very sophisticated. The ironless core was super light, no iron losses  but complex and probably mechanically not up to the task. I never saw a mini doing that 4 sec from 0 to 100 acceleration.





WheelMotor said:


> Major, it exists already:
> 
> http://www.pmlflightlink.com/


That was over 4 years ago. What's different, besides the company name? Different people perhaps? New money? It was old news back then. I see nothing of substance which is different today.

A bad idea too appealing to die.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

I think it's safe to underestimate these guys


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

WheelMotor said:


>


Where did you dig up that photo? It looks a lot like the attached photo of a motor I've had kicking around the lab for 20 years. And is a copy of the Dura automotive window lift motor from 1968.


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## WheelMotor (Sep 16, 2008)

*old wine in new bags ?*

I found it somewhere in an article about PML. Funny if it is so old !
A lot of people boast with it still today. Look also here:
www.printedmotors.com


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## rochesterricer (Jan 5, 2011)

*Re: old wine in new bags ?*

FWIW, the Protean motors were named Car and Driver's "Most Promising Technology"

http://green.autoblog.com/2012/12/09/proteans-in-wheel-motors-named-car-and-drivers-most-promising/


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

This thread has been dormant for over 2 years. It is as good of place as any to post this: 
*Protean’s In-Wheel Electric Motors Coming To Market In 2014 
*
Headline from April, 2013 here: http://cleantechnica.com/2013/04/17/...arket-in-2014/ And I recall numerous press releases and hype boasting 2014 production of wheelmotors on OEM EV/HEVs. 

Well, I waited all of 2014 and it is into 2015 now and I have yet to see one electric car or light truck on the market equipped with wheelmotors


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## yosemitesamiam (Feb 7, 2012)

right? Me too.... 



major said:


> This thread has been dormant for over 2 years. It is as good of place as any to post this:
> *Protean’s In-Wheel Electric Motors Coming To Market In 2014
> *
> Headline from April, 2013 here: http://cleantechnica.com/2013/04/17/...arket-in-2014/ And I recall numerous press releases and hype boasting 2014 production of wheelmotors on OEM EV/HEVs.
> ...


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## lkcl (Sep 16, 2011)

yyep, no surprise. i did an up-to-date analysis in another forum, recently:

https://www.osvehicle.com/topic/4x-inwheel-brushless-motors/

buses are fine, because the bus is only going to go on a fixed route. the fleet operator can therefore have the in-wheel motor customised *specifically and exclusively* to run on that fixed route.

bicycles are fine because you have pedal-assist.

scooters are just about fine because you can do complete overkill on the motor and the battery without adding too much in the way of extra weight, but woebetide if you try to use that scooter in a hilly area.

cars: no. no, no and no. and in case it's not clear: no.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

> Well, I waited all of 2014 and it is into 2015 now and I have yet to see one electric car or light truck on the market equipped with wheelmotors


Who could have guessed?


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

How did this thread end up in the Parts Vendors < Marketplace?  It is a stretch (like impossible) to think the OP was actually selling any wheel motors, or attempting to do so. 

That is the whole point: There is NO such product! This thread belongs in tech discussion < Motors. 

edit. Thanks to admin for the move.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

I guess someone just read the thread title and thought there was an actual product.


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## Karter2 (Nov 17, 2011)

Your dreams are answered..
...Eon motors Weez .









..or, maybe your dream just became a nightmare !


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## Karter2 (Nov 17, 2011)

How about this for something different..?
http://rotodesk.tumblr.com/


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

He posted this on ES: 









Too bad he has cornered himself around wheelmotors, the product which doesn't exist.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

major said:


> Too bad he has cornered himself around wheelmotors, the product which doesn't exist.


He seems to be making his own, with a reduction, using Mars(?) motors.
















Motor seems to have a rough low speed start up.


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## palmer_md (Jul 22, 2011)

you missed the video of him driving...


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## PStechPaul (May 1, 2012)

It may be workable, but still limited low-end torque vs maximum speed with a single reduction drive. Planetary gears might be better. There may be a problem with the controller and position/speed feedback at start-up that may still exist at higher speeds but is masked by the rotational inertia.

This could be a decent concept, but the motor and connections need better environmental protection. I'd hate to drive this thing through salty slush on the roads as exist here in MD and much of the country over the winter.


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

JRP3 said:


> He seems to be making his own, with a reduction, using Mars(?) motors.


Yes, appears to be ME4201 motor from Motenergy. Rated at about 4 to 5 hp continuous. He seems to have control problems, with a single motor drive. Bound to have more with 4 motor drives. He was looking for control help on the ES forum. Even if he gets that solved, four times 5 hp without good overload tolerance is going to make for a very lethargic and slow car. He may be able to drive it off the trailer for a car show, but I doubt he will ever put it on the track, or even the street.

Reminds me of this fellow, LotusEV and: http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showthread.php?t=78395A lot of time and money building a nice looking car around wheelmotors and then no wheelmotors. And not much in the way of options for installing axle drives.


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## matt889 (Nov 5, 2019)

Almost 5 year zooommbiiee thread... Did this guy ever get anything going? I see theres a QS Motor in-hub motor up to 20kw, anyone tried this??


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

matt889 said:


> I see theres a QS Motor in-hub motor up to 20kw, anyone tried this??


Probably not, but vauron is working on "Yet another Delorean conversion" using two Elaphe M700 motors, which are much more powerful.


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