# [EVDL] Battery Boxes (again! :-)



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

John,

Sound like a bit overkill to me. Why 1/2" HDPE? It's just a corrosion 
liner. I would recommend PPL instead on HDPE. Also, I would think 1" 
insulation should suffice.

If I lived closer I would offer to help you with those boxes. I have 
thermal plastic bending equipment and a $3500 top of the line plastic 
injection welder in my shop.

Sent from my iPhone

On Mar 21, 2009, at 7:59 PM, "John G. Lussmyer" 


> <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> > So, I'm starting to work on Battery Boxes.
> > I had planned on building them out of Fiberglass/Wood/Insulation.
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

I have 2 types of battery boxes:

1/4" Polypropylene (PP) - white
1/4" ABS - black

The PP boxes were fabricated by a local company (welded together) and work 
great. The ABS boxes I solvent welded myself from 4'x8' sheet. Both sit 
inside angle iron racks. They are very tough and nice looking. IIRC, one 
of the EV how-to books mentioned that 1/4" plastic sheet is at least as 
strong as 1/2" plywood.

A local plastic sheet supplier mentioned that UHMW (a denser HDPE) isn't 
any stronger than PP or ABS but costs a lot more. It's usually only used 
where friction is an issue (it's very slick). Also, darker colors tend to 
be more UV resistant.

If you're placing these inside metal frames and including hold downs, I'd 
stick with 1/4" to 1/2" plastic. No acid proofing, painting, or other 
maintenance.

If you're filling the truck bed with these, the bed itself is the metal 
frame, and the plastic boxes are there to help contain things in an 
accident. Anything that will keep them from jumping out of the bed during 
impact/rollover will be sufficient. The sides & bottom of the truck bed 
should already be adequate restraint.

-Adrian

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> John G. Lussmyer wrote:
> > So, I'm starting to work on Battery Boxes.
> >
> > So I waltzed on down to the (not so local) fiberglass/plastic store
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

i like to work with aluminum and thats what i used
for my battery box. plasticoat brand spray bombs
#470 is acid etch primer. great for aluminum and galvanize as well as steel.
i then coat it with 2 coats of RIHNO pickup box coating.
that epoxy coating should stop and acid corosion.
Louis in central BC
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Roger Heuckeroth" <[email protected]>
.


> John,
>
> Sound like a bit overkill to me. Why 1/2" HDPE? It's just a corrosion
> liner. I would recommend PPL instead on HDPE. Also, I would think 1"
>.> 

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> On 21 Mar 2009 at 18:51, Adrian DeLeon wrote:
> 
> > If you're filling the truck bed with these, the bed itself is the metal
> > frame, and the plastic boxes are there to help contain things in an accident.
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

If the restraint system is strong enough to hold the weight of the batteries
(assuming the truck is upside down), time maybe two or three, then it should
hold them in a rollover, I'd think. That's kind of how I'm designing the
holddown system for my battery bank, in the pickup bed -- angle steel which
bolts to the sides of the pickup bed and holds each battery down to the
bottom. If that fails, then I've probably hit hard enough that loose
batteries are the least of my problems.

Z



> EVDL Administrator <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> > On 21 Mar 2009 at 18:51, Adrian DeLeon wrote:
> >
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

I didn't mean to imply the battery boxes should remain unsecured, only 
that the truck bed itself should provide adequate protection in most 
cases. I'm assuming a pickup bed is designed to carry significant loads - 
with at least passing thought to safety in a crash. That's what pickups 
are for, right? No one's ever seen a truck with the front of the bed bent 
out of shape from shifting beer kegs *ahem* cargo 

In a rollover, even poorly secured batteries won't immediately enter the 
passenger compartment - limiting danger to the EV occupants (but not 
pedestrians & other vehicles). Hence the "no unsecured batteries in the 
passenger compartment" rule. I really like the batteries-under-the-bed 
concept. Lots of structural things to twist/bend/break before a battery 
can even get free. Worst case should be similar to getting into an 
accident with a full load of concrete blocks.

Look at semi truck accidents for comparison. LOTS of mass that's 
relatively unsecured. And it still takes a pretty serious wreck for all 
that cargo to spread across the highway.

-Adrian



> EVDL Administrator wrote:
> 
> > On 21 Mar 2009 at 18:51, Adrian DeLeon wrote:
> >
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

If you're using plywood for the boxes, you don't need the HDPE sheets. It
sounds like they add a lot of cost ( and probably weight). You could just
use plywood covered with epoxy/fiberglass inside and out. The fiberglass
will add strength and stiffness ( especially at the corner joints, where
you can use an extra layer of two of fiberglass cloth for reinforcement -
they sell rolls of fiberglass "tape" that work well for that) as well as
protection from any acid spray.
Make sure you use epoxy resin ( and not polyester). The epoxy is stronger,
less toxic and smelly to work with, and will resist acid spray better than
polyester. You can get it at a boat-builders supply, if they don't have it
at your plastics shop.
That's how I did it, with styrofoam insulation board ( the cheap pink stuff
you can get at a home store) as insulation inside the box. I just used a few
spots of polyurethane construction adhesive to hold the insulation in place
inside the box. The insulation board has more than enough compressive
strength to support the batteries without crushing and doesn't get attacked
by the acid.

Phil Marino



> John G. Lussmyer <[email protected]>wrote:
> 
> > So, I'm starting to work on Battery Boxes.
> > I had planned on building them out of Fiberglass/Wood/Insulation. (Wood
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Phil Marino wrote:
> > If you're using plywood for the boxes, you don't need the HDPE sheets. It
> > sounds like they add a lot of cost ( and probably weight). You could just
> > use plywood covered with epoxy/fiberglass inside and out. The fiberglass
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Roger Heuckeroth wrote:
> > Sound like a bit overkill to me. Why 1/2" HDPE? It's just a corrosion
> > liner. I would recommend PPL instead on HDPE. Also, I would think 1"
> > insulation should suffice.
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Adrian DeLeon wrote:
> > The PP boxes were fabricated by a local company (welded together) and work
> > great. The ABS boxes I solvent welded myself from 4'x8' sheet. Both sit
> > inside angle iron racks. They are very tough and nice looking. IIRC, one
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

I would ask the same question as Roger, as far as the benefits/cost and
weight of the 1/2 inch HDPE liner.
Since the HDPE will contribute little structurally ( because it's so
flexible) you could, instead, just fiberglass/epoxy the inside surface of
the plywood box ( 1 layer of, for example, 6 ounce cloth) and save a lot of
weight and cost.

Applying fiberglass is not particularly difficult, or messy, if you go about
it carefully. If you can apply a coat of paint by hand with a brush, and
not end up with half if it in your hair, you can easily do this fiberglass
job and not make a mess. Paint the resin on surface, cut and lay in the
glass cloth, and apply some more resin onto the cloth ( and brush it in a
bit).

That shouldn't cost more than about $150 for materials ( even with an extra
tape layer at the corners - inside and out- for structural reinforcement)
and you'll end up with a stronger, lighter, cheaper box.

Phil Marino



> John G. Lussmyer <[email protected]>wrote:
> 
> > Roger Heuckeroth wrote:
> > > Sound like a bit overkill to me. Why 1/2" HDPE? It's just a corrosion
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> John G. Lussmyer wrote:
> 
> > Roger Heuckeroth wrote:
> >> Sound like a bit overkill to me. Why 1/2" HDPE? It's just a
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Cory Cross wrote:
> > I bought my fiberglass from http://www.fiberglasssite.com ,
> Thanks, good reference site, and much better pricing! (Though they do
> need someone to proofread their site, and do better html.)
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Roger Heuckeroth wrote:
> > I pay about $50/sheet for 1/4" x 48.5" x 96.5" natural PPL. It welds
> > slightly better and HDPE also.
> >
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> John G. Lussmyer wrote:
> 
> > Roger Heuckeroth wrote:
> >> I pay about $50/sheet for 1/4" x 48.5" x 96.5" natural PPL. It welds
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

We're using precision cut-to-order ABS (pretty cheap) and we 
solvent-welded and glued them together ourselves. Basic steel angle 
frames were welded together and plastic pallet strapping was used to 
secure them. This was cheap and the straps are rated to 900 lbs. The 
strap holes are raised 1/4" to contain any corrosive and conductive 
weepings. Pictures at the bottom of the members page at www.aceaa.com. 
This method has been holding up well in another conversion.

Gary Krysztopik
www.ZWheelz.com
San Antonio, TX





> John G. Lussmyer wrote:
> > So, I'm starting to work on Battery Boxes.
> > I had planned on building them out of Fiberglass/Wood/Insulation. (Wood
> > box, lined with 2" insulation panels, then fiberglass over it all to
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> gary wrote:
> > We're using precision cut-to-order ABS (pretty cheap) and we
> > solvent-welded and glued them together ourselves. Basic steel angle
> > frames were welded together and plastic pallet strapping was used to
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Roger Heuckeroth wrote:
>


> John G. Lussmyer wrote:
> >
> > That's 3 times what I pay. What are the inside dimensions of your box?
> >
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> John G. Lussmyer wrote:
> 
> > Roger Heuckeroth wrote:
> >> On Mar 22, 2009, at 2:08 PM, John G. Lussmyer wrote:
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Roger Heuckeroth wrote:
>


> John G. Lussmyer wrote:
> >
> > That's a big one! You might be able to make it out of two sheets, but
> > It may take three depending on high you want the side walls. I could
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Oooops - sorry. www.aceaa.org

I see what you mean.

Gary Krysztopik
www.ZWheelz.com
San Antonio, TX





> John G. Lussmyer wrote:
> > gary wrote:
> >
> >> We're using precision cut-to-order ABS (pretty cheap) and we
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> gary wrote:
> > Oooops - sorry. www.aceaa.org
> >
> >
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> John G. Lussmyer wrote:
> >> and I use
> >> West Systems epoxy, which is supposedly sold at West Marine. Also see
> >> http://westsystem.com/ss/where-to-buy/
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Hi EVerybody, in the battery box "Thing"

Just a silly thought? Don't they, JC Whitney comes to mind, sell plastic 
water and fuel tanks in a Boxy form? IF ya could find one that could swallow 
up a load of batteries, AFTER you SawZalled the top off? Be hell, putting 
them through the filler necks!The ship in the bottle thing?THEN ya put the 
plastic "box, inside yur plywood or steel frame. Of course ya want some 
"limber"or Drain Holes?As ya need to hose down yur batteries every few 
weaks!

Seeya

Bob
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "John G. Lussmyer" <[email protected]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Sunday, March 22, 2009 1:23 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Battery Boxes (again! 




> > Adrian DeLeon wrote:
> >> The PP boxes were fabricated by a local company (welded together) and
> >> work
> >> great. The ABS boxes I solvent welded myself from 4'x8' sheet. Both sit
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

If you're going fiberglass you may be able to build your boxes entirely 
out of foam. Fiberglass the inside & outside, creating a composite 
structure. For a seriously permanent install, line the back of your truck 
with something and put the first layer of glass on top! This was done on 
the Volt Vette:

http://northstar.sierraclub.org/campaigns/air/voltVette/chap10.html

For your large box it wouldn't hurt to put in a few interior partitions, 
just thick enough to run a hold down bolt through. Fan-fold foam comes in 
1/4" thicknesses.

========

The largest box on my truck holds 12 batteries. It's 2" x 3/16" angle iron 
with two strips of 3" flat bar underneath to keep the 1/4" ABS box from 
sagging. Enough room for 1/2" of insulation all around.

========

Do they make those rigid plastic bed liners for full size trucks? Could be 
a good template or acid-proof layer of last resort.

========

Just rambling now... I'm currently envisioning a T-shaped box that wedges 
tightly in the front of the bed, keeping it from moving laterally in a 
collision. Now what's needed is a hold down that will keep the batteries 
from leaping through the rear window - like an angle iron frame. It could 
be fastened to the sides of the bed and tops of the wheel wells. Even 
better would be a few beefy bits protruding through the bottom of the bed 
and firmly bolted to one of the cross members that keep the frame rails 
parallel.

Bonus points if the sides of the bed have an interior lip, with the 
battery box being wide enough to catch on the lip.

-Adrian


> Roger Heuckeroth wrote:
>>


> John G. Lussmyer wrote:
> >>
> >> That's a big one! You might be able to make it out of two sheets, but
> >> It may take three depending on high you want the side walls. I could
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Adrian DeLeon wrote:
> > For your large box it wouldn't hurt to put in a few interior partitions,
> > just thick enough to run a hold down bolt through. Fan-fold foam comes in
> > 1/4" thicknesses.
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

I assume that putting the batteries in boxes under the bed between the 
rails was not an option. To me a pickup without a full bed is kind of 
useless. I need the bed for my tools and cargo.

Sent from my iPhone



> "Adrian DeLeon" <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> > If you're going fiberglass you may be able to build your boxes
> > entirely
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Why not put them where the gas tanks were? Get creative and make access
plates in the floor of the bed. There is tons of room on either side, plus
it puts the weight lower to the ground.

Brett



> Roger Heuckeroth <[email protected]>wrote:
> 
> > I assume that putting the batteries in boxes under the bed between the
> > rails was not an option. To me a pickup without a full bed is kind of
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Roger Heuckeroth wrote:
> > I assume that putting the batteries in boxes under the bed between the
> > rails was not an option. To me a pickup without a full bed is kind of
> > useless. I need the bed for my tools and cargo.
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Brett Davis wrote:
> > Why not put them where the gas tanks were? Get creative and make access
> > plates in the floor of the bed. There is tons of room on either side, plus
> > it puts the weight lower to the ground.
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Adrian DeLeon wrote:
> > If you're going fiberglass you may be able to build your boxes entirely
> > out of foam. Fiberglass the inside & outside, creating a composite
> > structure. For a seriously permanent install, line the back of your truck
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> John G. Lussmyer wrote:
> > Planning on using some 3/8" plywood partitions. (possibly fiberglassed
> > as well.)
> 
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Lee Hart wrote:
> > John G. Lussmyer wrote:
> >
> >> Planning on using some 3/8" plywood partitions. (possibly fiberglassed
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Maybe you could just get rid of the stock bed completely. Build your 
battery box right on the frame rails and then build a combination 
battery box lid and flat bed. The advantages are; it will cut out the 
weight of the stock metal body, it will help the aerodynamic drag (no 
tailgate), potentially lower center of gravity, potentially make the 
batteries more accessible. You could use aluminum diamond plate and 
FRP as light weight material in order to keep the weight down. If you 
wanted to have room for tools and/or smaller items you could build 
cabinets into the sides.

Have you thought of this option?



> John G. Lussmyer wrote:
> 
> > Brett Davis wrote:
> >> Why not put them where the gas tanks were? Get creative and make
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Lee Hart wrote:
> 
> > John G. Lussmyer wrote:
> >> Planning on using some 3/8" plywood partitions. (possibly
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Roger Heuckeroth wrote:
> > Maybe you could just get rid of the stock bed completely. Build your
> > battery box right on the frame rails and then build a combination
> > battery box lid and flat bed. The advantages are; it will cut out the
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> John G. Lussmyer wrote:
> 
> > Roger Heuckeroth wrote:
> >> Maybe you could just get rid of the stock bed completely. Build your
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Roger Heuckeroth" <[email protected]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, March 24, 2009 9:29 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Battery Boxes (again! 


>
>


> Lee Hart wrote:
> >
> >> John G. Lussmyer wrote:
> >>> Planning on using some 3/8" plywood partitions. (possibly
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Roger Heuckeroth wrote:
> > Yes, it is more work. No doubt about that. But I think the end
> > result would be worth it.
> >
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> John G. Lussmyer wrote:
> 
> > Roger Heuckeroth wrote:
> >>
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> 
> I'm curious why you say that removing the tailgate makes things 
> worse. Do you have any evidence to back that up? This is 
> contradictory to what I've heard over and over again.
> 
MythBuster 
Episode 43
http://kwc.org/mythbusters/2005/11/episode_43_seasickness_cures_f.html

(Bottom of page)

Buddy Mills
[email protected]

There are only 10 types of people in the world;
those who understand binary and those who don't.

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> On 24 Mar 2009 at 11:52, Roger Heuckeroth wrote:
> 
> > I'm curious why you say that removing the tailgate makes things
> > worse. Do you have any evidence to back that up? This is
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Roger Heuckeroth wrote:
> > Would you say that battery leaks are inevitable? If so, maybe it
> > would be a good idea to incorporate a drain in the lowest part of the
> > battery box. That way you could neutralize the acid with some baking
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Lee Hart wrote:
> > So, I would design for leaks even if you are using sealed batteries.
> >
> > On my flooded packs, I've always had a drain hole in the bottom of the
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> John G. Lussmyer wrote:
> 
> > Lee Hart wrote:
> >> So, I would design for leaks even if you are using sealed batteries.
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Steve Clunn & I did some trucks & just used some 1/2" angle on the frame to 
put the bed liner alone inplace for the old steel bed also added 4 short 
pices on each corner & one one each side under the outside lip to make it 
nice n sturdy. A couple of bolts hold it in place, easy & lite, one person 
can remove it, lift or just slide it out to check the batts. Lite but still 
could put old car engines or a pallet of batterys in the back . Really easy 
& quick to do & cheap if you already have a full bed liner in the back of 
your truck
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Roger Heuckeroth" <[email protected]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, March 24, 2009 9:11 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Battery Boxes (again! 


> Maybe you could just get rid of the stock bed completely. Build your
> battery box right on the frame rails and then build a combination
> battery box lid and flat bed. The advantages are; it will cut out the
> weight of the stock metal body, it will help the aerodynamic drag (no
> tailgate), potentially lower center of gravity, potentially make the
> batteries more accessible. You could use aluminum diamond plate and
> FRP as light weight material in order to keep the weight down. If you
> wanted to have room for tools and/or smaller items you could build
> cabinets into the sides.
>
> Have you thought of this option?
>
>


> John G. Lussmyer wrote:
> >
> >> Brett Davis wrote:
> >>> Why not put them where the gas tanks were? Get creative and make
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> John G. Lussmyer wrote:
> >> I'm planning on putting in a pair of drain holes. One at each
> >> corner of the front of the pack... However, I was wondering if I
> >> make the drain holes fairly large, like 2" dia, if I could let them
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Myth buster did a TV show about tailgate or no tailgate, The one with the 
tailgate up so shut got better gas mileage
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Roger Heuckeroth" <[email protected]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, March 24, 2009 11:52 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Battery Boxes (again! 


>
>


> John G. Lussmyer wrote:
> >
> >> Roger Heuckeroth wrote:
> >>> Maybe you could just get rid of the stock bed completely. Build your
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

The bilge fan was the first thing to die in my EV. It was blowing into the 
boxes, so acid mist wasn't the cause. I just don't think they're made to 
run 12+ hours/day. The noise mine made slowly got deeper in pitch, then 
would only turn on intermittently, then not at all.

The 2nd thing to go was my Dayton blower  I can still get it to run if I 
push/pull the wires going into the motor housing. This one was probably a 
mounting position/moisture problem.

-Adrian

> Bilge fans are pretty cheap too and they are designed to adapt to a
> hose. Also, they are typically designed to get wet and corrosion
> resistant.
>
>
> http://www.iboats.com/Marine_Bilge_Blowers/dm/cart_id.081322230--session_id.630998105--view_id.257679
>

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

If you remove the tail gate you add air disruption closer to the vehicle. Yes you have removed the air dam of the gate. The answer is an air foil about 6" to a foot above and out from the farthest end of the back of the vehicle. This shoots the air away from the vehicle and the disruptive air ai well behind the vehicle causing no drag. 

Have you ever seen a bicycle race ? the lone person out fromnt is just fine. However when some one catches up with him and hanges right behind him. The first person is slowed down by the disruption. The second person is in the wake and is riding easy. This lets them save up energy to pass the first person and leave them behind. 



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