# Jordy's UK EV Racer



## Jordysport (Mar 22, 2009)

What sort of Torque/Power does a Warp11 144v 1000A produce?? am thinking something along those lines, but a little difficult to find data on the motors as they're only upto 72V 600A


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## ddmcse (Oct 9, 2008)

I haven't been on a dynometer yet but I am very pleased with the torque I can get out of my WarP11 I've been running my car for a few years now. I drive it to work every day. It is all about the batteries, to that end I would look into a High Voltage WarP11. I have just started a dealership for Netgain motors and I have a brand new one in the box ready to send to you.
she feels way better that the 300 ft-lbs I had as a gas burner 

https://youtube.com/ddmcse


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

As your thread is mostly about motors I have moved it to the Motors forum.

Sounds like a great project.


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## Jordysport (Mar 22, 2009)

ddmcse said:


> I haven't been on a dynometer yet but I am very pleased with the torque I can get out of my WarP11 I've been running my car for a few years now. I drive it to work every day. It is all about the batteries, to that end I would look into a High Voltage WarP11. I have just started a dealership for Netgain motors and I have a brand new one in the box ready to send to you.
> she feels way better that the 300 ft-lbs I had as a gas burner
> 
> https://youtube.com/ddmcse


Well i am looking at some High Power Headway 38120 8ah cells upto 10C cont. I am just struggling to find a V , A , & Motor Combo to give the performance required.

0-60 circa 3.5-4 seconds
Top speed More the better but must be over 100mph
Obviously this is in a chassis that will weigh less than 500kg converted, it weighs 240kg with driver atm.


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## ddmcse (Oct 9, 2008)

I can do 100mph with my 3800 pound beast, not for long but I can do it.


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## Jordysport (Mar 22, 2009)

ddmcse said:


> I can do 100mph with my 3800 pound beast, not for long but I can do it.


So it should be easily possible in an 800lbs car (converted for you yanks )


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## MalcolmB (Jun 10, 2008)

Back of an envelope calculation says you need a motor that produces around 200 ft lbs (270 Nm) up to 3000 rpm to meet your acceleration target. With a 3:1 reduction that would take you to 100 mph at around 4500 rpm. The Lemco motors won't do it, and the Warp 11 sounds like overkill to me (as well as being heavy). Since each run is no more than a couple of minutes you could run a smaller motor at high amps...


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## ddmcse (Oct 9, 2008)

yeah the WarP11's are 240 lbs. I was thinking of using a 9 in my next one
A 9 is a good idea and I have that on hand as well. brand new in the box
obviously I'm not planning on a supra


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## Jordysport (Mar 22, 2009)

Hey Guys, 
My spreadsheet confirms what you are saying a 270Nm input will achieve 0-60 time of 3.98 seconds with 144v 64ah pack at 1000A controller limit (using headway high power cells) with a gear ratio of 3.14 from the use of a sierra diff.


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## MalcolmB (Jun 10, 2008)

Hi Jordy
It looks like the newer, upgraded Warp 9 motor might fit your needs IF you're comfortable with pushing it close to the limits. It should produce around 200 ftlbs of torque at 1000A, but obviously not for very long. I'd suggest getting advice from someone who has experience of running these motors close to the edge.


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## skooler (Mar 26, 2011)

Hi, Nice Project 

Being in the UK it'd make sense to plan to use parts available from within 
the EU.

The kostov 9" motors are apparently very good and rated for higher voltage when compared to the warp motors. I dont really see the need to go 11" as most of the power needed in hill climbing is for a very short period.

Headway batteries as already mentioned as they can push out 10C+, again you dont need the range so these make sense. Go for the highest voltage your controller will accept. Eclipse bikes is a UK supplier.
http://eclipsebikes.com/lifepo4-bat....html?osCsid=23466c98d765ef5e05221596a16062cf

As for a controller, I really reccomend Evnetics controllers. They will go higher voltage than most so you can have the same power output for less battery amps. There not the cheapest but by far the best quality. Nothing but good words for them. I bourght mine from rebbl (below)
http://www.rebbl.nl/

I honestly think a kostov 9, Soliton Jr (yes only 600A but goes up to 350V) and a decent size headway pack (say 95s5p of 10AH) will make that thing fly!

Looking forward to this one 

Cheers

Mike


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## Batterypoweredtoad (Feb 5, 2008)

I second what Mike said with the possible suggestion of using one of the more volatile Lithium chemistry batteries. They have higher power per weight but sacrifice range and cycle life. 

I would ask Tessarect first, but cooling the Soliton Jr with an ice reservoir loop might be perfect for your situation to keep the 660 amps all the way up the hill. 

Just curious: are you planning on using a transmission? All the calculations change if you are not.


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## MalcolmB (Jun 10, 2008)

Jordy mentioned a Sierra diff, so I'm assuming no gearbox. The Jedi normally has a motorcycle engine/gearbox and chain drive diff.

The Soliton Jr/Kostov 9 combo would certainly give sprightly performance in a car as light as this, but with a single ratio I doubt it will meet both the acceleration and top speed requirements. I suggested the Warp 9 because it's known to handle higher currents. I think Plamenator said the Kostov 10 was designed as a direct competitor to the Warp 9; they weigh about the same, but the Kostov has interpoles for higher voltage, which make it slightly chunkier.


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## skooler (Mar 26, 2011)

MalcolmB said:


> Jordy mentioned a Sierra diff, so I'm assuming no gearbox. The Jedi normally has a motorcycle engine/gearbox and chain drive diff.
> 
> The Soliton Jr/Kostov 9 combo would certainly give sprightly performance in a car as light as this, but with a single ratio I doubt it will meet both the acceleration and top speed requirements. I suggested the Warp 9 because it's known to handle higher currents. I think Plamenator said the Kostov 10 was designed as a direct competitor to the Warp 9; they weigh about the same, but the Kostov has interpoles for higher voltage, which make it slightly chunkier.


ah if its direct to diff then that changes everything!

Perhaps he could use a small lightweigh gearbox to get the right ratios? should add no more than 30KG?


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## Batterypoweredtoad (Feb 5, 2008)

The packaging looks interesting to say the least.


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## Yabert (Feb 7, 2010)

With high performance/short time application and direct drive in mind, I would suggest:

Kostov Alpha + 1000 to 1400A controller + 90S 2P (16Ah) of headway 38120HP

Motor and controller will give masive torque (380-500 Nm) and don't suffer that much for a minute race and the 60 Kg of battery will give a good power (90-110 Kw).

A123 AMP20 or Turnigy Nano-Tech can also be a very good battery choice (simply more complex to assemble).


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## skooler (Mar 26, 2011)

trying to think of other ways to do this, seing the layout makes me realise how small it is!

Just to throw a slightly odddifferent option out. what about using a variator from a large scooter or motorbike?


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## Jordysport (Mar 22, 2009)

Hi Guys got some pictures on the way of one of my chassis's, but I will be having a new chassis made so it can be customized to my specs. 



MalcolmB said:


> Hi Jordy
> It looks like the newer, upgraded Warp 9 motor might fit your needs IF you're comfortable with pushing it close to the limits. It should produce around 200 ftlbs of torque at 1000A, but obviously not for very long. I'd suggest getting advice from someone who has experience of running these motors close to the edge.


Hi Malc, 

Looking at the Warp9 Vs Kostov after having a good look at my chassis i have about 14" of length from sprocket to edge of the chassis (1/2 inch of overhang) which makes the stumpy 14" kostov ideal. & with overhang in the open air with the fan on the end should give some nice cooling. 



skooler said:


> Hi, Nice Project
> 
> Being in the UK it'd make sense to plan to use parts available from within
> the EU.
> ...


Hi Mike, 

I Don't have an issue with international purchases as i have contacts so thats no big issue i would prefer to get the top compnents rather than be restricted by delivery & locations. 

As for the 11" compared with the 9 Inch an 11 inch will fit in there nicely with the top chassis rail being raised slightly in that area by 2.5 inches but again i am not worried about that. 

The plan is to have it transversly mounted with chain drive (geared) direct to the mini diff. so i have a range of sprockets i can use (10-15 front) & (34-40 rear) 

And what i like about the Kostov motor is the rpm limit of 6800 rpm makes it a bit easier with direct drive No? 

Yes Hillclimbing is very short, 40seconds generally for a 1000cc Jedi, but remember its very unlikley you will be on full throttle for very long, Lookup Wiscombe Hill climb, there are only two places you will be on full throttle for more than 5 seconds.

Headway cells.... thoughts on these??? are they "deadways"? bang for buck they seem pretty good. and re supplier i can get good discount going direct. 

Kostov 9" & 300V & 600A (Soliton Jr) would be good, the question is would it be less strain on the components than say 220V & 1000A but still produce the same "Umph"



Batterypoweredtoad said:


> I second what Mike said with the possible suggestion of using one of the more volatile Lithium chemistry batteries. They have higher power per weight but sacrifice range and cycle life.
> 
> I would ask Tessarect first, but cooling the Soliton Jr with an ice reservoir loop might be perfect for your situation to keep the 660 amps all the way up the hill.
> 
> Just curious: are you planning on using a transmission? All the calculations change if you are not.


The Cylindrical Cells is deffo the way forward for me with limited space and various combinations of arrangements of cells makes it highly advantageous along with the High C ratings. 

Re cooling i can have a mini rad & water cooling for it no probs, I was planning on putting the controller under the seat with a rad against the side of the chassis with a cut out & obviously the rad angled slightly to get the air flow. 

Direct Drive with gear reduction.



MalcolmB said:


> Jordy mentioned a Sierra diff, so I'm assuming no gearbox. The Jedi normally has a motorcycle engine/gearbox and chain drive diff.
> 
> The Soliton Jr/Kostov 9 combo would certainly give sprightly performance in a car as light as this, but with a single ratio I doubt it will meet both the acceleration and top speed requirements. I suggested the Warp 9 because it's known to handle higher currents. I think Plamenator said the Kostov 10 was designed as a direct competitor to the Warp 9; they weigh about the same, but the Kostov has interpoles for higher voltage, which make it slightly chunkier.





skooler said:


> ah if its direct to diff then that changes everything!
> 
> Perhaps he could use a small lightweigh gearbox to get the right ratios? should add no more than 30KG?


No a gearbox is not possible in the space, 



Batterypoweredtoad said:


> The packaging looks interesting to say the least.


Yes its compact, see my pics of my chassis with nothing in (ignore the central bars their just engine mounts which wont be there on the new chassis. 



Yabert said:


> With high performance/short time application and direct drive in mind, I would suggest:
> 
> Kostov Alpha + 1000 to 1400A controller + 90S 2P (16Ah) of headway 38120HP
> 
> ...


Kostov Alpha is an 11" motor but thats not a problem as mentioned above, the question is.. is it sufficiently better than the 9" to warrent the minor chassis mods. and yes that sort of power would be very nice.


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## skooler (Mar 26, 2011)

The Evnetics controllers will hapily convert volts to amps but not the other way around - So higher voltage is typicaly better..



> Kostov 9" & 300V & 600A (Soliton Jr) would be good, the question is would it be less strain on the components than say 220V & 1000A but still produce the same "Umph"


Power is power, the difference between the two is how much torque is applied. 600A should be about 150ft lbs (from 0RPM dont forget!) I dont think you could actually put the power down if you went higher, my RX8 with a Soliton Jr has problems putting the power down if I floor it.

I think 600Amps will provide oozles of torque for your application. going higher voltage means you can get the RPMs all the way up to the Kostovs limit. 340ish volts on the proposed headway pack may sag by a third at full current, so you still have all the volts you need for the motor.

yabert has an excellent smart conversion using headway cells.



Is there any way at all you could get some form of transmission/gearing in there?

What do you think about the variator idea? too weak?


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## Batterypoweredtoad (Feb 5, 2008)

You have a perfect chassis for dual Kostov 220v 9" with one driving each wheel. Wire them in parallel on a Soliton 1 and you get a limited slip effect and 1000 amps worth of torque. It would take reworking your sprocket setup.


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## Jordysport (Mar 22, 2009)

skooler said:


> The Evnetics controllers will hapily convert volts to amps but not the other way around - So higher voltage is typicaly better..
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yes there will be gearing it won't be bolted straight to the driveshaft, theres going to be approximatly 14/34 ratio so approx 2.4 Min upto about 3/4 so i can vary the top speed according to the hill climb

a gear ratio of 2.4 at 6800rpm gives a (theoretical (power dependent) top speed) of 170mph and at 3.5 gr at 6800rpm gives 116mph so i should have a variation of 90mph-170mph top speed gearing. but if i used the 11" at 5800rpm limit. comes down to 75mph-150mph which is pretty reasonable. 

At the end of the day surely the car is sooo light and with it geared down, it shouldn't be an issue. 

Re-traction issues, you have to remember i am running ultra sticky slicks 14" wide at the rear, there nothing like road tyres. 

At 340V it gives 316V after sag, it is alot 105s4p (32ah) or could i go less on Ah maybe 105s2p (16Ah) bit better at 210 cells, i am sure i could fit alot more cells in though. 

Am modellng the chassis tonight, once the new solidworks has downloaded on my home pc. so should give a better idea of the setup i am looking at. 

Cheers
Jordy


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## Batterypoweredtoad (Feb 5, 2008)

Remember a Soliton has a hard limit of 350V or it wont turn on. Your charged 105s pack will be well above that.


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## Jordysport (Mar 22, 2009)

Batterypoweredtoad said:


> You have a perfect chassis for dual Kostov 220v 9" with one driving each wheel. Wire them in parallel on a Soliton 1 and you get a limited slip effect and 1000 amps worth of torque. It would take reworking your sprocket setup.


How would i fit them in the chassis, the thing is i can fit one transverse via chain to sprocket due to the fact the diff & sprocket is offset in the chassis its not central. plus lookup Sawbench corner at wiscombe, its a massive harpin, and it won't be a LSD it would be a welded diff effectivly and it would spin up the rears.


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## Jordysport (Mar 22, 2009)

Batterypoweredtoad said:


> Remember a Soliton has a hard limit of 350V or it wont turn on. Your charged 105s pack will be well above that.


3.6/3.7V fully charged no? off the top of my head. so less than 97s


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## Batterypoweredtoad (Feb 5, 2008)

Jordysport said:


> How would i fit them in the chassis, the thing is i can fit one transverse via chain to sprocket due to the fact the diff & sprocket is offset in the chassis its not central. plus lookup Sawbench corner at wiscombe, its a massive harpin, and it won't be a LSD it would be a welded diff effectivly and it would spin up the rears.


With each axle separate with a separate motor for each with the motors wired in parallel it would behave like a limited slip. If they won't fit then none of that matters i guess.


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## Jordysport (Mar 22, 2009)

Batterypoweredtoad said:


> With each axle separate with a separate motor for each with the motors wired in parallel it would behave like a limited slip. If they won't fit then none of that matters i guess.


Max width of the chassis rails is 550mm Outer edge to outer edge, 22 inches giving a minimum overhang of 5 inches each side which is 12.5 cm not a huge amount and it is possible, but i assume your thinking the motors transverse straight to the shafts?


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## Batterypoweredtoad (Feb 5, 2008)

I was thinking motors facing each other with sprockets on the shafts and dual chain drive sprocket setups on the axle. Basically it would look like what you have but 2 sprockets instead of a diff. 

motor/sprocket space sprocket/motor
chain chain
axle/bearing/sprocket/bearing space bearing/sprocket/bearing/axle


Lol-hope my formatting sticks


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## Jordysport (Mar 22, 2009)

Batterypoweredtoad said:


> I was thinking motors facing each other with sprockets on the shafts and dual chain drive sprocket setups on the axle. Basically it would look like what you have but 2 sprockets instead of a diff.
> 
> motor/sprocket space sprocket/motor
> chain chain
> ...


Yeah thats what i thought you meant, 

I think for simplicity to start with a single motor would be good, after which if i need more i can always go down that route. Looks like a 11" Alpha will fit in there so i am thinking down that route, with soliton1. headway cells (430mm (L) x 420mm (W) x 240mm (H) est 180cells and space along side the motor of (300mm (L) x 140mm (W) x 240mm (H) est 96 cells which would nicely give 95s3p but i could get another 100 cells above the chassis rails upto the engine cover, to up it to 95s4p to allow full 1000A on the controller.


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## Ace_bridger (Nov 22, 2011)

This is one of the best threads i've ever read on this forum!! Some great minds offering great suggestions for the greater good.

I'm going to be watching how this monster develops very closely.

So pleased to see this all going on in the UK! Awesome, well done.

Adam


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## Yabert (Feb 7, 2010)

> Originally Posted by *Jordysport*
> _Kostov Alpha is an 11" motor but thats not a problem as mentioned above, the question is.. is it sufficiently better than the 9" to warrent the minor chassis mods. and yes that sort of power would be very nice. _


Please notice the difference betweem 11'' and 9'' motor:

Kostov Alpha 11: 75Kg, 270mm dia.
Warp 11: 105Kg, 290mm dia.

Kostov 9: 45Kg, 231mm dia.
Warp 9: 70Kg, 235mm dia.

Personnaly, I think that an extrem torque is way more important in direct drive application because you can't shift a gear to have peak power most of the time.
Of course, that also depend of your speed variation during the race. If the motor speed is always around peak power during the race that can be different than if you need 120 mph in a stretch and 30 mph in the next curve!


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## Jordysport (Mar 22, 2009)

Yabert said:


> Please notice the difference betweem 11'' and 9'' motor:
> 
> Kostov Alpha 11: 75Kg, 270mm dia.
> Warp 11: 105Kg, 290mm dia.
> ...


I Don't think you quite get the application, its not a "Race" that denotes Circuit racing which it is not. 

Hillclimbing is an A-B short sprint which is very technical, put into youtube Scott moran doune, will give you an idea of how we roll here. There is so much variation in top speed, high speed corners and very low speed corners, On that logic maximum torque possible would be advantageous to maximise acc low down along with the high voltage to achieve a high (120+) terminal velocity. 

The biggest issue in the chassis is the motor length (no punn intended) but the kostov is nice and small at 14" compared with warp motors and the difference in legnth between the Kostov9" and Kostov11" is negligiable thus why not go for the bigger motor for greater flexibility in the future for upgrade?


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## MalcolmB (Jun 10, 2008)

Jordysport said:


> the difference in legnth between the Kostov9" and Kostov11" is negligiable thus why not go for the bigger motor for greater flexibility in the future for upgrade?


30 kilos difference is a significant percentage of your total weight (plus the additional cells needed to accelerate the extra mass). The larger motor also has greater rotational inertia, so won't spool up as fast. Admittedly they're small factors, but with a car as light as a Jedi I'd personally take a minimalist approach. It's a tough call though.


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## Jordysport (Mar 22, 2009)

MalcolmB said:


> 30 kilos difference is a significant percentage of your total weight (plus the additional cells needed to accelerate the extra mass). The larger motor also has greater rotational inertia, so won't spool up as fast. Admittedly they're small factors, but with a car as light as a Jedi I'd personally take a minimalist approach. It's a tough call though.


Yes, it is 30kg but i may have future plans for a higher top end, 200mph is not that far out of the equation but thats a fair way down the line. at the end of the day the same principal applies to the driver if i loose 10kg from 70kg to 60kg thats a significant proportion of the total weight. Tis a tough call, will finish the Solidworks model and go from there..


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## Batterypoweredtoad (Feb 5, 2008)

What is your distance from front to rear in the engine bay? Could you put a Porsche mid engine or Air Cooled VW transmission behind the motor with a longitudinal motor setup? It would put a lot of the transmission behind the axles.


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## Jordysport (Mar 22, 2009)

Batterypoweredtoad said:


> What is your distance from front to rear in the engine bay? Could you put a Porsche mid engine or Air Cooled VW transmission behind the motor with a longitudinal motor setup? It would put a lot of the transmission behind the axles.


729mm, but i've got to fit my cells in there aswell, the only other option i could do is buy a Formula ford, and use that as a basis as that has a Hewland 4 speed box, but I would have the same issues of space for cells.


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## MalcolmB (Jun 10, 2008)

This motor would be ideal if you have deep pockets: http://www.yasamotors.com/technology/products/yasa-400

...and it's made in the UK


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## Yabert (Feb 7, 2010)

Sure! If you have the money, don't bother with DC motor. A dual Yasa-750 is the way to go!

http://www.yasamotors.com/technology/products/yasa-750


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## Jordysport (Mar 22, 2009)

Yabert said:


> Sure! If you have the money, don't bother with DC motor. A dual Yasa-750 is the way to go!
> 
> http://www.yasamotors.com/technology/products/yasa-750


I can't really afford £100,000 on Motors


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## Jordysport (Mar 22, 2009)

Ok guys, Update time my head has been going round in circles today but come back on the Jedi glad i have as its covered nearly all possibilities. I am having trouble having validating my calcs, say the following specs

CDA- 0.65
Rho - 1.176
304 V
1000A 
Kostov9" Motor (Max RPM 6800) 
Soliton 1 Controller 
Headway 38120HP (95s5p) 
Total Weight Inc Driver - 450kg
Gear Ratio 2:1 

From the Kostov 9" Motor graph at 1000A produces 380Nm of torque with a tyre diameter 0.507m which gives a driving force of circa 3000N and using F=mu *R to find if its traction limited gives well over 5000N with slicks but with narrrow road tyres gives circa 3000N. Now my calcs haven't acounted for RR but relative to Aero drag it would have a neglible affect. 

Question is Guesstimate the top speed. as i am getting some very fast figures (near 200mph and 0-180mph in 19 seconds (assuming perfect traction) 

But with WOT at any rpm will the motor produce peak torque? looking at the graphs they will not, so I presume my calcs are all wrong. but see it difficult to input the motor data into a spreadsheet to calculate it.


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## MalcolmB (Jun 10, 2008)

It would be nice if it was that simple  Your calculations look good, but like you suspected, you won't get max torque all the way up to maximum rpm. The Kostov 9 may be able to take 1000 amps for seconds at lower volts, but I doubt it could cope with 1000A at 220V. Back EMF from the motor also means that torque starts dropping off before you get to maximum rpm. I'd suggest getting in touch with Kostov and asking what they recommend. One of their engineers is a member here and is very helpful. His user name is Plamenator.


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

Jordysport said:


> But with WOT at any rpm will the motor produce peak torque?


No, like I told you. You get peak torque (at current limit) only up to base speed (RPM). That base RPM is voltage dependent. And that voltage must include any sag and voltage drop. So just a guess.....at that point, your base RPM will be in the range of 2500/3000 RPM for the 220 volt curve. 

What is your mph/RPM ratio? I typically use "XXXmph/1000RPM". 

Also, what do your calcs say the voltage is at 1000A? And have you inquired as to the motor survivability at 1000A for 20 seconds? 

major


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## Jordysport (Mar 22, 2009)

MalcolmB said:


> It would be nice if it was that simple  Your calculations look good, but like you suspected, you won't get max torque all the way up to maximum rpm. The Kostov 9 may be able to take 1000 amps for seconds at lower volts, but I doubt it could cope with 1000A at 220V. Back EMF from the motor also means that torque starts dropping off before you get to maximum rpm. I'd suggest getting in touch with Kostov and asking what they recommend. One of their engineers is a member here and is very helpful. His user name is Plamenator.


Hi Malc, Yes as i expected, the best way probably to estimate it is to model the Motor graphs in excel that way i will get a much better value for top speed and Acc. 

Thats a good idea, will contact him today. 

Just an idea, with direct drive & long gearing requiring ideally higher rpm, would AC be a better option? 



major said:


> No, like I told you. You get peak torque (at current limit) only up to base speed (RPM). That base RPM is voltage dependent. And that voltage must include any sag and voltage drop. So just a guess.....at that point, your base RPM will be in the range of 2500/3000 RPM for the 220 volt curve.
> 
> What is your mph/RPM ratio? I typically use "XXXmph/1000RPM".
> 
> ...


Hi Major, 

Unfortunatly i did have trouble understanding at first, linguals and forums aren't ideal for expressing engineering topics. But I fully understand now, so thank you for your patience. 

30mph/1000RPM , looking at the motor graph at 1000RPM it will be wanting the full 1000A at which point it begins to tail off. 0-30 mph will be done at full 1000A. Is my logic correct. 

well at 1000A , V = I*R . internal resistance of the cells is 0.04 Ohms so 0.04 *1000 = 40V so 304-40 = 264V which would appear to be too high listening to most peoples estimations. but in my spreadsheet this has no affect on the calcs (only number of cells) as i take the torque value straight from the motor graph. (need to create a motor Map to get a proper estimation) 

Many Thanks

Jordy


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## Jordysport (Mar 22, 2009)

Anyone got any Ideas for a small compact 2 speed gearbox?? may have to make my own, will take a while lol.


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## Jordysport (Mar 22, 2009)

Had a spare hour today, so one of the firs options for packaging. all the cells are in there, still leaving the sidepods (considering not having them on atm) and space under the seat (for the Pot)


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## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

Jordysport said:


> Anyone got any Ideas for a small compact 2 speed gearbox?? may have to make my own, will take a while lol.


Lenco and Gear Vendors

But I'd seriously consider a modified PowerGlide as it is one tough mutha and is surprisingly small for the amount of power it can handle. Also, it gives you 2 forward and 1 reverse gear.

A fellow user here by the name mizlplix appears to be our resident 'Glide expert.


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## Jordysport (Mar 22, 2009)

Tesseract said:


> Lenco and Gear Vendors
> 
> But I'd seriously consider a modified PowerGlide as it is one tough mutha and is surprisingly small for the amount of power it can handle. Also, it gives you 2 forward and 1 reverse gear.
> 
> A fellow user here by the name mizlplix appears to be our resident 'Glide expert.


Hey, Unfortunatly both those companies are yank, I can get gears here in the UK, so shouldn't be a problem just time consuming and getting the right rated parts. 

The Powerglide unit is unfortunatly Far far far far far too big, and i need chain drive to the rear axle, almost like a modifed transfer box. with gear ratio approx, 1.8:1 & second gear of 0.6:1 but without two output shafts just one. 

PS. my model of the controller is just a visual representation, haven't taken anything lol.
Cheers
Jordy


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## Batterypoweredtoad (Feb 5, 2008)

You could use a Harley Davidson or Buel transmission but getting one to handle the 250-350 foot lbs of torque is going to be pricey. You could adapt a transverse transmission out of something like a Suzuki Swift but it probably doesn't have much in the way of an aftermarket (or torque capacity either). A powerglide is nice but it puts you back in the longitudinal mounting situation and stuck needing a diff. You could mount the Glide sideways with a chain drive input and output and stack the motor and trans. I still come back to a transaxle. You would lose the space in front of the motor you have currently designed for a pack, but you would gain space for a U shaped battery pack riding above and around the motor. The Air Cooled VW units are cheap, have a HUGE aftermarket, and cure my worries about you abusing that poor sprocket with torque. 

You could just buy a Soliton Shiva and up the voltage to see how far you can stretch out the torque curve of a K9 220V. The motor is cheap compared to adding a transmission so you could afford to blow a few in experiment mode.


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## Jordysport (Mar 22, 2009)

Batterypoweredtoad said:


> You could use a Harley Davidson or Buel transmission but getting one to handle the 250-350 foot lbs of torque is going to be pricey. You could adapt a transverse transmission out of something like a Suzuki Swift but it probably doesn't have much in the way of an aftermarket (or torque capacity either). A powerglide is nice but it puts you back in the longitudinal mounting situation and stuck needing a diff. You could mount the Glide sideways with a chain drive input and output and stack the motor and trans. I still come back to a transaxle. You would lose the space in front of the motor you have currently designed for a pack, but you would gain space for a U shaped battery pack riding above and around the motor. The Air Cooled VW units are cheap, have a HUGE aftermarket, and cure my worries about you abusing that poor sprocket with torque.
> 
> You could just buy a Soliton Shiva and up the voltage to see how far you can stretch out the torque curve of a K9 220V. The motor is cheap compared to adding a transmission so you could afford to blow a few in experiment mode.


The car's already got a diff on the rear end so no problem there, is just getting the drive to it (sprocket). 

The Sprocket should be fine, i was planning on a dual chain setup, thats what the big boys use and there running same if not more torque. 

Will look into some of those ideas, certainly worth a punt. 

Pack voltage atm is 307V so i think i'm pushing the motor already. and still comes back with needing a box.


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## Batterypoweredtoad (Feb 5, 2008)

I think Planetmotor tentatively suggested something around 280 Volts in another thread. If that is under load then you will be far below that with sag. Going to straight Li-po like the turnigy or higher voltage would be a possible cure.


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## Batterypoweredtoad (Feb 5, 2008)

Here's another thought: Do you have the ability to test and tune the car? You could just build the most simple version to test and go from there. A k9 220 V or K11 Alpha, Soliton 1, your battery pack of choice, and your chain and sprocket setup. Those parts would make for a fairly simple build and would all transfer to a build with a transmission.


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## Jordysport (Mar 22, 2009)

Hi guys, well my Spreadsheet is pretty much complete now, but i have a few inclines of errors in it. (I will try and attach it to this post) 

1) Firstly I would think that my estimation of motor torque (at individual RPMs) is incorrect again. eg, The kostov 11" Alpha Motor is at 220V on the graph (if you take an average) now the question is do i transpire the graph vertically for higher voltages (eg 307.4V after sag 267.4V), and then extrapolate the graph horizontally for higher amps. 

So the results of the spreadsheet gives a terminal velocity of 143.5 Mph with an 11" Kostov Alpha motor 307.4V 32Ah pack, 1000A controller and 460kg weight inc driver. this is with a Harley Gearbox (good idea whoever that was many thanks) and it seems that with any gearing combination the 143.5mph is the max i can get out of it. 

2) The second error i can foresee is the data that has been inputted ("Shit in shit out") and the only value that has not been calculated is the CdA value (0.65 estimated) which does seem a bit high as a Saab 900 is 0.66 which is like a flying brick. 

To rectify this i have considered Taking a picture of my single seater dead from the front, to estimate the frontal area. but i still not sure on how to estimate the Cd , now an F1 car at Monza is 0.7 would it be just a case of comparing to other similar cars and estimating it?.


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## Jordysport (Mar 22, 2009)

Ok having calculated the frontal area of 0.56433m^2 and Cd estimated at 0.6 a final CdA of 0.338600. and updated my spreadsheet with dual9"Kostov motors direct drive chain drive (no transmission) gear ratio 0.86:1 a terminal velocity of 216mph. 

But thats still only running at 1000A, I don't know alot about Dual motor setups but, I would assume they need double the Amps to get the same performance as a single motor would? in which case my number of cells is going to have to go up, as 25C+ from the headway cells would be pushing them too far? 2000A at 25C - 80Ah is alot of cells


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## Yabert (Feb 7, 2010)

Jordysport said:


> this is with a Harley Gearbox (good idea whoever that was many thanks)


This little gearbox can really take all the torque coming from motor? I doubt.



Jordysport said:


> But thats still only running at 1000A, I don't know alot about Dual motor setups but, I would assume they need double the Amps to get the same performance as a single motor would? in which case my number of cells is going to have to go up, as 25C+ from the headway cells would be pushing them too far? 2000A at 25C


2000A??? Assuming 250v after battery sag, that is *670 HP* from battery...
1000A x 250v = 250 Kw from battery. That is probably more than enough for your light car.


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## Jordysport (Mar 22, 2009)

Yabert said:


> This little gearbox can really take all the torque coming from motor? I doubt.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


The torque is geared down before it enters the box 3:1 but that was the previous design. 

No offence but I can't have "probably enough" I have to have everthing calculated and to the highest accuracy possible. my main question with the Dual setup is, that say a 9" Motor produces peak torque of 300Nm at 1000A, in a dual motor setup would a 2000A setup be required to produce 600Nm. 

I will try again to upload the Excel doc.


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## MalcolmB (Jun 10, 2008)

Hi Jordy
I think it would help if you restated your goals with this build as they seem to have changed (though that's not unusual). If you wire two motors in series they'll each see full current and half the voltage from the controller. If you wire them in parallel they'll each see full voltage and half the current.


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## Jordysport (Mar 22, 2009)

MalcolmB said:


> Hi Jordy
> I think it would help if you restated your goals with this build as they seem to have changed (though that's not unusual). If you wire two motors in series they'll each see full current and half the voltage from the controller. If you wire them in parallel they'll each see full voltage and half the current.


Hi Malc, 

Just a note to all thanks for your help & advice I am still relativly new to this and seeking to learn as much as possible, it doesn't come naturally to a petrol head lol. 

Yes my Goal posts have moved slightly since a potential source of investment has come along, main design specs are below 500kg & terminal velocity 200mph as always these are targets and I like to aim high. but with chain drive i have flexibility with various different ratio's. 

I should of known that with the motors basic principles making it more complex than it is lol. will have a bit of search on here on the Adv & disadvantages of series & parallel. if i go down the route of Parallel i would have to get a soliton shiva at least that also removes the need for contactors. 

Note to mods: may be worth moving this to EV Conversions & Builds section / Progress thread.

Many thanks
Jordy.


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## MalcolmB (Jun 10, 2008)

If you can't find a strong and compact two- or three-speed gearbox the dual motors make sense as they're the next lightest way to double torque (or rpm).

I liked Toad's suggestion of building a simple version first with a single motor and Soliton. It's a good way of getting to know the components and systems before you start pushing things.

If you start with a single motor you could stack a second motor on top of it fairly easily later on.

By the way, I came across this enclosed (single-speed) reduction box from DRD racing the other day. It might be worth talking to them as they say they're working on a limited slip diff drive box: http://www.drdracing.co.uk/Drive_Box.php


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## Jordysport (Mar 22, 2009)

Thats the sort of dual motor setup i was considering, with the Shiva and different style cells i would have to make a custom engine cover but thats not biggy. just got a find a way to join the cells & support them, & with BMS.


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## Jordysport (Mar 22, 2009)

Is now wishing evnetics would do a controller in between the Soliton 1 & Shiva theres a gaping chasm inbetween them in terms of performance. Parrallel Dual motor on 500A (soliton1) doesn't really cut it.


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## Yabert (Feb 7, 2010)

Just to put the things in perspective, a friend of mine can do the 0-60 mph under 4 sec and the 1/4 mile in 12 sec with his 250 Kg go-kart powered by one ineffective 6.7'' motor. His peak power is around 50Kw.
It's why I wrote that 250Kw is probably enough for very good performance in your 500Kg vehicule.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3UOToi0fHNs

To reach your goal, I think you need to focus on lightweight components and good aero. So, forget the shiva capable of 1600hp and build a light vehicule powered by a powerfull system. Dual kostov 9 can be awesome, even if they are powered by a single 1000-1400A controller (500-700A on each motor). 300-350 Kw potential and roughly 300-350 hp at motor shaft.


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## MalcolmB (Jun 10, 2008)

So with this new layout are you thinking of eliminating the diff and chain-driving the half shafts independently? If so, you might want to consider one controller per motor anyway. Either two Solitons or two Soliton Juniors.


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

Yabert said:


> one ineffective 6.7'' motor.


What's ineffective about it


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## skooler (Mar 26, 2011)

Jordysport said:


> Is now wishing evnetics would do a controller in between the Soliton 1 & Shiva theres a gaping chasm inbetween them in terms of performance. Parrallel Dual motor on 500A (soliton1) doesn't really cut it.


Why not just use two soliton 1s?


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## Yabert (Feb 7, 2010)

major said:


> What's ineffective about it


Well, ineffective when you dump 850A at terminals of this small motor. It probably generated 1/3 of heat and 2/3 of power with all the energy coming from battery at his peak power point (or even worse!!).


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

Yabert said:


> Well, ineffective when you dump 850A at terminals of this small motor. It probably generated 1/3 of heat and 2/3 of power with all the energy coming from battery at his peak power point (or even worse!!).


Hi Yab,

I think you mean inefficient. And I agree that it may be inefficient by some standards. But I think it is quite effective  Look at the performance it delivers for its size & mass (and also for its cost and durability).

And on the subject of efficiency, although I don't know what battery he is running, loss in that battery could be on the same order as the loss in the motor. Would you call the battery ineffective?

Looks to me like that guy has a real effective ekart 

major


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## MalcolmB (Jun 10, 2008)

I forgot to ask: Do you still plan to use the Jedi mostly for hillclimbing events, or have you got something else in mind now?


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## McRat (Jul 10, 2012)

Perhaps consider a torque converter? 380 Nm isn't much, one off a 6-cyl late model car will do that easy. 

You are only running under 1 minute, so no cooling should be required. For max power, use the lockup feature. All newer TC's are locking style.


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## Jordysport (Mar 22, 2009)

MalcolmB said:


> So with this new layout are you thinking of eliminating the diff and chain-driving the half shafts independently? If so, you might want to consider one controller per motor anyway. Either two Solitons or two Soliton Juniors.


Possibly, but independent shafts are a little more tricky, will need a few more supports and bearings. 

Two SOliton1's would work in it, and be quite space effective but running out of room. 



skooler said:


> Why not just use two soliton 1s?






MalcolmB said:


> I forgot to ask: Do you still plan to use the Jedi mostly for hillclimbing events, or have you got something else in mind now?


Mostly yes but a few top speed runs, funders want some pub facts to brag about. 









Slowly getting the model together in the spare few mins i have in the day. just got to model up suspension components etc and a few body panels and i won't be far off.


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## Batterypoweredtoad (Feb 5, 2008)

It looks like your weight is climbing. 

- 2 Kostov 9" ~200lbs 
- 1 Soliton Shiva ~ 100lbs 
- ~200-400 A123 pouch cells ~200-400 lbs. 

You are already at 500-700lbs there, are you still meeting your weight goal?


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## Jordysport (Mar 22, 2009)

Batterypoweredtoad said:


> It looks like your weight is climbing.
> 
> - 2 Kostov 9" ~200lbs
> - 1 Soliton Shiva ~ 100lbs
> ...


Well it seems i overestimated for the weight of the chassis, initially i estimated 188kg without ICE engine & wings but, on weighing it its 153kg 
sorry i only work in kg
so 2 9" motors 90kg
2 soliton 1 - 30kg
- 291 pouch cells - 145kg

ofc + Contactors, fuses + big ass wires. accounted 20kg for 

total weight 438kg without driver. and pretty much 500kg on the nose with a british driver .


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## Yabert (Feb 7, 2010)

major said:


> I think you mean inefficient. And I agree that it may be inefficient by some standards. But I think it is quite effective
> Looks to me like that guy has a real effective ekart


Oups! Translation problem!
Yes, his kart is dangerously effective despite the inefficiency of his tiny motor!


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## Jordysport (Mar 22, 2009)

Been very pleased how the model came along today, got all the bodywork done bar the wings. just got the suspension to model tommorow then will put it into starccm to see what CdA values i will be getting.


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## Jordysport (Mar 22, 2009)

Well the model is finished, total weight with driver 489kg according to mass properties but there are a few minor discrepancies such as the roll hoop is solid not pipe as the sweep created a few zero thickness geometries. 

I've made a few versions one with some extreme bodywork and one without, But I could really do with Starccm+ to analyse it, anyone know where i can get a copy  otherwise i'll have to make a trip to Oxford to borrow their computers. 


















Each wheel arch weighs 2kg, rear wing 1.3kg and the cockpit enclosure 4kg. so not alot of weight need to optimise it really but need the software to do so. 

As you can see i've managed to fit everything in in the short chassis, BUT this does not allow for the joining process of the cells, BMS, contactors, and wire. 

1) 2/0 Wire ok for 1000A may need to be 2000A for a short bit where the Pack is split for the controllers. 
2) Contactors, seen a few Killovac contactors but none upto the requirements, will i have to use multiple contactors (2 each controller) 
3) These A123 Pouch cells are relativly new and loads of fakes, what has been the most effective way of joining them & supporting them, & any need for a gap between cells for swelling?. 
4) BMS for the cells......I have limited knowledge on them need to research, but any guidance specific to these cells would be great. 

 Jordy


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## Jordysport (Mar 22, 2009)

Question..

1) Fuses..... I am planning on running at the controllers peak A nearly all the time (1000A for upto 2 mins) supplying each motor with 500A. what is a suitible fuse? stated here:http://www.evsource.com/tls_high_current_fuses.php an A50QS400-4 is apparantly up to it (350V 400A fuse) 

2) Circuit Breakers... I can't find circuit breakers for 350V upto 1000A, are they rated similar to the fuse? 350V 400A so this: http://www.kta-ev.com/Two_Airpax_Circuit_Breakers_p/kta-aa2.htm for 320V 400A (my pack is 92S (3.33V Nom) 

3) I've just realised my motors need to turn in opposite directions, so can i have a block of Al with 3 bolt holes for each +ve & -ve supply to split the current ie Soliton1 (320VDC 1000A out) I want 320VDC 500A to each motor. 

Thank you 

Jordy


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## Yabert (Feb 7, 2010)

1- By the nature of electric motors, it will be hard to continuously push 500A at motors terminals in direct drive application. At high speed, the BEMF play an important roll.

Anyway, the fuse isn't on the motor side of the controller, but on the battery side. So, there is always (exept at peak power) less amps on battery side than on the motor side. A 500A fuse will need around 100 sec at 1000A to blow. So this kind of fuse is way enough (400A probably also).

2- Cuircuit bracker? A good contactor (or the both ones in the Soliton1) connect to an emergency stop push button is way more usefull.

3- I'm not sure to understand your question. Your motor need to be wired in parallel to split the current (1000/2 = 500A)


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## Jordysport (Mar 22, 2009)

Well as of now i have optimized a DC system for the car, still waiting on software issues with my CFD but it should be completed at the end of next week, but been considering AC systems as an alternative, but the issue mainly is sourcing the components, a system with:

http://www.sea.siemens.com/us/internet-dms/Internet/MarineComm/General/Docs/ELFA_Data Sheet.pdf

Drive Motor 1PV5138-4WS24 

& IGBT-Inverter 422 055.9003.02 

Would be great, gives very nice power and the system would just fit in my vehicle. 

Q: Where does one source the Inverter & Motor? and the cost of them? anyone know or have any ideas.
Thanks


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## Jordysport (Mar 22, 2009)

Interesting company: http://www.centric.eu/TSolve/Default/Products/EV-Drivetrain-Products/Thrust--200-inverter.aspx

Wonder what the cost is of the Siemens motors & Thrust 200 inverter


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## kerrymann (Feb 17, 2011)

Very interesting thread. I'll be watching as I am toying with a similar car concept with dual warp 9s for next years project. I am curious why you don't make the side pods bigger and throw more batteries in there? That way you could loose the large pack behind the drivers head and move that weight much father down. My initial plan 2 long versions of my A123 packs mounted on side pods.


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## Jordysport (Mar 22, 2009)

kerrymann said:


> Very interesting thread. I'll be watching as I am toying with a similar car concept with dual warp 9s for next years project. I am curious why you don't make the side pods bigger and throw more batteries in there? That way you could loose the large pack behind the drivers head and move that weight much father down. My initial plan 2 long versions of my A123 packs mounted on side pods.


The side pods are not structurally integral to the Chassis and will not support the weight of any batteries. plus the cells behind the drivers head won't be necessary with this current design (always changing lol) 

And the Side pods aren't on the Mk1 Jedi so keeping it original. and all the aero advantages.


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## MalcolmB (Jun 10, 2008)

Hi Jordy,
Here's one source for that AC motor and inverter: http://www.metricmind.com/price-list/


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## Jordysport (Mar 22, 2009)

MalcolmB said:


> Hi Jordy,
> Here's one source for that AC motor and inverter: http://www.metricmind.com/price-list/


Yes those controllers are a little pricey, Motors are expensive but think I can blag that. But then again siemens motors on here the other week going for $500 a piece!.


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## Yabert (Feb 7, 2010)

120 Kg motor + 20 Kg inverter!!! Overweight and high performance aren't compatible...

See here: http://www.evdrive.com/products/evd-motor-controller/


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## Jordysport (Mar 22, 2009)

Yabert said:


> 120 Kg motor + 20 Kg inverter!!! Overweight and high performance aren't compatible...
> 
> See here: http://www.evdrive.com/products/evd-motor-controller/


Dual kostov 9" is 90kg soliton 1 is 15kg, not a huge difference.


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## Jordysport (Mar 22, 2009)

Update: 

Been switching for a while from DC to AC on the ideas front, and seems the increase in performance vs increase in cost is not great. so it would seem the most economical option in terms of ease and cost is the DC route. 

Therefore I am trying to find the optimal DC setup, now from my CFD testing i have optimized the bodywork for minimal drag while still ensuring there is no Lift. as the largest factors that affect the performance were 3 things: Aerodynamic Drag, Motor Torque (across the range) and Motor RPM 

obviously the last two slightly linked, but having optimized the aero I am focusing on the motors performance. 

Current setup is using Dual Kostov 9" at 212V Nominal and 500 Motor Amps (each) with Solition 1. Now I can't overvolt the motor any more as the Amps are quite High and speaking with Kostov say that a ball park figure for peak amps for the 9" is around 600Amps (at 212V). 

From mapping the motor at 500A gives a Torque Graph like this: 










*The question is what motors are out there that can out perform the Kostov 9" 220V?? 

*I could go to a Kostov 11" 250V but that would be an extra 60kg of weight + extra cells to cope with 1000V at each motor and dual solition 1's but this would only give an increase in terminal velocity of 13.5mph and for cost, weight & packaging it is not worth it. 

atm the setup uses Dual K9" would a single larger motor be better? or a better Dual motor? 

Sorry for the essay weeks of thoughts into AC have brought me right back to where i originally was lol. 

Thanks
Jordy


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## Batterypoweredtoad (Feb 5, 2008)

Shouldn't dropping the amps from 600 to 500 allow you to up the volts a similar percentage? My quick math gives me 254 Volts at 500 Amps for the same KW(127) into the motor as 212 Volts and 600 Amps. That would stretch out your torque curve a bit.

Do you have any datalogging of a typical run on one of the hillclimbs you would be competing in from a similarly powered/style vehicle? I would be curious to see if you could calculate an average load and use that to judge the Kostov's ability to withstand the load.


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## Jordysport (Mar 22, 2009)

Batterypoweredtoad said:


> Shouldn't dropping the amps from 600 to 500 allow you to up the volts a similar percentage? My quick math gives me 254 Volts at 500 Amps for the same KW(127) into the motor as 212 Volts and 600 Amps. That would stretch out your torque curve a bit.
> 
> Do you have any datalogging of a typical run on one of the hillclimbs you would be competing in from a similarly powered/style vehicle? I would be curious to see if you could calculate an average load and use that to judge the Kostov's ability to withstand the load.


Yes I would agree with that, I am not familiar with the Effect of Voltage variation on the motor graph, so say the Voltage increased by 10% would I times the RPM by 1.1 and keep the so therefore that torque occurs for longer at higher RPMs (but still limiting motor RPM to 6800rpm)

Its rated to 220V so 132Kw at 600A so effectively 264V at 500A (12.45% Greater than the data used from the 212V Graph) but this is motor Volts were considering here so under full load (1000A for dual motors) sag will be 1000*0.02 = 20V so have a pack voltage of 284V would achieve a motor voltage of 264V (connected in parallel)? 

To give a motor graph of something like this? (assume the lower V line carries on to 6800 RPM i didn't bother mapping it due to the low torque produced) 










And secondly for the Datalogging Q, I should be able to source some data yes.


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## Jordysport (Mar 22, 2009)

Update: 

Well i've stripped the car ready for sandblasting these last couple of days, my arms are damm sore from drilling the rivets out.

Also i've properly weighed the car, and as in its complete state in the first picture it weights 97kg + Wheels which totals 137.8kg !!!! super super light.


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## DIYguy (Sep 18, 2008)

Interesting thread. It appears that an electric drive car could be a real advantage with it's low end torque for this application.

My first thought is that such a small light car would be burdened by dual motors or even one large motor like an 11". IIRC, John Metric ran a 12 second 1/4 mile with one 9" motor in his Fiero when the second motor controller faulted. The Fiero was like 2800 lbs or so. Remembering that the EV motor is more comparable to an ICE transmission, one has to start to think in terms of heat which is of course a current-time issue. The 20 second example is significantly different than the 2 minute one. A 9" series DC motor should be able to do this job nicely if you can keep it cool enough. So, forced air cooling is paramount here. 
Another thing that comes to mind is to use a CVT similar to performance sled (snowmobile) applications. Of course your gearing will have to be figured out. 

I would not be leaning towards the Kostov motors . . not that they aren't a good motor, but they just can't take the high current for as long as a Warp or better yet, GE. There is a reason they are lighter. The conductors are smaller to make room for the interpoles. 

The "engine" of an EV is really the battery. For such a short duration, high power application. . . you really need to look at Lithium Polymer. RC cells or similar. Headways or AMP20's just don't compare for peak power.

Finally, if you find that the Soliton1 isn't enough current, you may want to look at the Zilla. (Don't get me wrong, I am an EVnetics fan, . . as I own a Soliton1 and a Shiva) The Zilla is light and will deliver higher current although has a much lower continuous rating. Again, you may need to sort out the time-temperature thing. For 20 seconds, perhaps a moot point. For 2 minutes, you may need a cooling loop.

Question; It seems a bit odd to have 4 wheel drum brakes on such a toy. . .?? Can u not fit it with disc brakes? . . or am I missing something.. ?


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## Jordysport (Mar 22, 2009)

DIYguy said:


> Interesting thread. It appears that an electric drive car could be a real advantage with it's low end torque for this application.
> 
> My first thought is that such a small light car would be burdened by dual motors or even one large motor like an 11". IIRC, John Metric ran a 12 second 1/4 mile with one 9" motor in his Fiero when the second motor controller faulted. The Fiero was like 2800 lbs or so. Remembering that the EV motor is more comparable to an ICE transmission, one has to start to think in terms of heat which is of course a current-time issue. The 20 second example is significantly different than the 2 minute one. A 9" series DC motor should be able to do this job nicely if you can keep it cool enough. So, forced air cooling is paramount here.
> Another thing that comes to mind is to use a CVT similar to performance sled (snowmobile) applications. Of course your gearing will have to be figured out.
> ...


It Doesn't seem that odd that a 1988 basic race car has drums all round, it weighs 400lbs give or take, and it does not need disc brakes. 

Motor Config: 
There are many advantages to using dual kostovs over the Warp 9's mainly packaging i can fit dual kostovs into the rear end whereas there is no hope of fitting dual Warps, but yes you can run them at higher amps, such as 1000amps but the power produced at that is less than what is produced at 500amps (each) for the dual kostov motors. The top speed difference between using two Kostovs and one single Warp9 is 18% (to the kostovs advantage) 

Furthermore the Warps slightly bigger dimensions mean more drastic chassis modifications. 

Drive Config: 
The system will be direct drive, the issues again come down to packaging there is physically not enough room for a CVT or any type of transmission. 

Power Config: 
AMP20's are peak 750A dual Kostov's running at 500A taking out of account other factors. I could run a 2P pack (1500A peak or 600A cont) and the pack is fine, but obviously the non original A123's will be a bit less but even so the Power density of them is still significantly larger than other cells, furthermore are substantially cheaper and lighter. 

Controller Config: 

Current plans are to use Soliton 1 controller with liquid cooling to allow contin running at 1000A.


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## DIYguy (Sep 18, 2008)

Jordysport said:


> It Doesn't seem that odd that a 1988 basic race car has drums all round, it weighs 400lbs give or take, and it does not need disc brakes.


 OK, I just thought it would give a bit more weight savings.


Jordysport said:


> Motor Config:
> There are many advantages to using dual kostovs over the Warp 9's mainly packaging i can fit dual kostovs into the rear end whereas there is no hope of fitting dual Warps, but yes you can run them at higher amps, such as 1000amps but the power produced at that is less than what is produced at 500amps (each) for the dual kostov motors. The top speed difference between using two Kostovs and one single Warp9 is 18% (to the kostovs advantage)


I was actually thinking one 9" motor. 200 volts @ 2000 amps with the Zilla. That's about 450 hp peak, given an 85% efficiency rating. (not that you could sustain that for any length of time . . . or maybe even load it enough to hit that number) Why carry a second motor around in such a small car. . . unless heat becomes the issue.
Show me one competitive drag racer running a Kostov.



Jordysport said:


> Furthermore the Warps slightly bigger dimensions mean more drastic chassis modifications.
> 
> Drive Config:
> The system will be direct drive, the issues again come down to packaging there is physically not enough room for a CVT or any type of transmission.


Perhaps with one motor the above may change?? It will definitely be lighter.



Jordysport said:


> Power Config:
> AMP20's are peak 750A dual Kostov's running at 500A taking out of account other factors. I could run a 2P pack (1500A peak or 600A cont) and the pack is fine, but obviously the non original A123's will be a bit less but even so the Power density of them is still significantly larger than other cells, furthermore are substantially cheaper and lighter.


Depending where u get ur cells, they could be cheaper, but definitely not more power dense, and definitely not lighter than Lipo. ALL of the fastest drag racers today are running LIPO. It's because of power density. Not saying they last longer or come without other issues. Even at rating, AMp20"s are what . . . less than 40C peak. Lipo is well over 100C now with a higher volt/cell.

But hey, it's ur toy. . . u get to do it any way u like...


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## Jordysport (Mar 22, 2009)

OK, I just thought it would give a bit more weight savings.

Surprisingly the disc conversion is heavier than drums, it suprised me initially as i thought the same as you. 

I was actually thinking one 9" motor. 200 volts @ 2000 amps with the Zilla. That's about 450 hp peak, given an 85% efficiency rating. (not that you could sustain that for any length of time . . . or maybe even load it enough to hit that number) Why carry a second motor around in such a small car. . . unless heat becomes the issue.
Show me one competitive drag racer running a Kostov.

That is the issue "Length of time" , it does have a dual application due to sponsor requirements as they would like to see what top speed it could achieve. 

If you go back through this thread theres a few dimensional quotes for the chassis it is VERY small, and 1 Warp 9 will only JUST fit in.

Trouble is there is limited data on the Warp9 performance at those figures, If i had a torque curve i could map it out and see the performance differences, any help here would be great. 


Perhaps with one motor the above may change?? It will definitely be lighter.

As per above only 1 Warp 9 will fit in there. 

Depending where u get ur cells, they could be cheaper, but definitely not more power dense, and definitely not lighter than Lipo. ALL of the fastest drag racers today are running LIPO. It's because of power density. Not saying they last longer or come without other issues. Even at rating, AMp20"s are what . . . less than 40C peak. Lipo is well over 100C now with a higher volt/cell.

Yes AMP20's are 37.5C Peak but the question is do i need any more? I do not need a long run time, so 2P is adequate, so why buy overspecc'd components unnecessarily 

But hey, it's ur toy. . . u get to do it any way u like...


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## DIYguy (Sep 18, 2008)

Jordysport said:


> OK, I just thought it would give a bit more weight savings.
> 
> Surprisingly the disc conversion is heavier than drums, it suprised me initially as i thought the same as you.


Yep, that is surprising.



Jordysport said:


> I was actually thinking one 9" motor. 200 volts @ 2000 amps with the Zilla. That's about 450 hp peak, given an 85% efficiency rating. (not that you could sustain that for any length of time . . . or maybe even load it enough to hit that number) Why carry a second motor around in such a small car. . . unless heat becomes the issue.
> Show me one competitive drag racer running a Kostov.
> 
> That is the issue "Length of time" , it does have a dual application due to sponsor requirements as they would like to see what top speed it could achieve.
> ...


Well, there is some data on top speed. For example, I used my 9" Series DC motor to drive my 4250 lb pick up truck to 165 kmp. John Metric, used two stock 9" Warp motors to drive his 2800 lb Fiero to 155 MPH on the salt flats. So, say 1400 lb with one Zilla (John uses 2) would be a similar application. Ask him how hot the motors got.
Check out some of John's graphs. He has many others if you look. These ones must be divided by 2 as they represent his total power as I recall.
http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showthread.php/dc-plasma-build-thread-10sec-fiero-69476p7.html
BTW, other than the Helwig brushes, his motors are bone stock.



Jordysport said:


> Perhaps with one motor the above may change?? It will definitely be lighter.
> 
> As per above only 1 Warp 9 will fit in there.


There u go. 


Jordysport said:


> Depending where u get ur cells, they could be cheaper, but definitely not more power dense, and definitely not lighter than Lipo. ALL of the fastest drag racers today are running LIPO. It's because of power density. Not saying they last longer or come without other issues. Even at rating, AMp20"s are what . . . less than 40C peak. Lipo is well over 100C now with a higher volt/cell.
> 
> Yes AMP20's are 37.5C Peak but the question is do i need any more? I do not need a long run time, so 2P is adequate, so why buy overspecc'd components unnecessarily
> 
> But hey, it's ur toy. . . u get to do it any way u like...


Weight. . . and perhaps, size. 
You mention power density. . . and weight. Both significant factors for racing. If it didn't matter, you would look at pb.
When u compare LiFePo to Lipol (for racing particularly) it's a double whammy. Not only is the package smaller/lighter . . . but the voltage drop is significantly less. Now your pack "overbuild" can be less. A battery will give up it's peak power at 50% of its nominal voltage. not that u will make it sag that far. . For LiFePo nominal is 3.2 volts. Poly is 3.7 . . however again, that is a bit skewed as 3.7 is virtually empty for Poly where 3.2 is where Lifepo spends most of it's discharge time at. . . under modest loads that is.
It's kind of like the disc brakes.. . . they are suppose to be more efficient so, should be able to be designed lighter for same application. If not lighter, shorter stopping distances. That's the difference between 1988 and 2012. (I'm not saying they are available for your ride)


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## Jordysport (Mar 22, 2009)

DIYguy, thank you for your inputs it is a great help and very thought provoking i'd hate you to think that i am ungrateful for such advice, but here is my train of thought of how i have got to the decision of the Dual Kostovs, or whoever knows i could change my mind because of this thought process!

Just a little background these cars are made today in 2012 with improved safety & braking & power, there have been many many derivatives of this car but generalizing there have been 6 from Mk1 (Mine) to Mk6 (Current - 2012). 

Hillclimbing isn't like drag racing, its a short tight twisty hill that usually consists of 1/2 straights (100m long) approx, and harpins, esses and corners like the corkscrew (laguna seca) but in reverse. the run time will not be the full 40 second run flat out, it will consist of probably 6-10 second bursts max. 

That is application 1 but also there has to be some contingency to maximize terminal velocity, now i have developed a highly aerodynamically efficient profile for the Jedi Single seater to reduce Cd by 48% which has taken many months of CFD testing. 

One of the longest airfields here in the UK Bruntingthorpe, has a 3km long runway, with loop that could achieve 80-100mph prior to the runway. so looking at that scenario, a 30-40 second runtime at full throttle is necessary. with the Kostov dual motors that is 384hp (not taking into acc efficiency approx 88%) not far off what the single Warp9's run at 170V 2000A. 

So in summary of the last paragraph the Warp9 motor is more powerful than dual kostov 9 but not by a huge amount but the Kostov Motors Rev to a rated 6800rpm whereas the Warp Motor is less than 5800rpm which makes a big difference. the Kostov motors run at a safer 500A each and are forced cooled with fans & ducting in the bodywork. 

Now the difference between the dual kostov 285V 500A each and 1 Warp9 & 180V 1000A is 42mph on terminal velocity. 

Furthermore Kostov's are a lot cheaper as there is no customs or import duty on them as made in the EU whereas the Warp 9 motors are over $3500 USD each for us in the UK. which is nearly double the cost of the kostov motors. 

I do need to discuss with Plamenator again to discuss the reliability of the Kostov's at those figures. 

Cells: 

I am open to new cells, can you link me to them so i can investigate the possibilities packaging being the main factor.

Thanks
Jordy


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## Jordysport (Mar 22, 2009)

Ok, I've modeled the torque curve from your link (/2 of course assuming its in SI Units) and a Warp9 running at 200V 2000A up to 6000rpm, gives a terminal velocity which is 12mph less than the Dual Kostov running at 285V 500A (each) and putting an extra 1000A drain on the Cells.


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## DIYguy (Sep 18, 2008)

Jordysport said:


> Ok, I've modeled the torque curve from your link (/2 of course assuming its in SI Units) and a Warp9 running at 200V 2000A up to 6000rpm, gives a terminal velocity which is 12mph less than the Dual Kostov running at 285V 500A (each) and putting an extra 1000A drain on the Cells.


Sorry, but that is all baloney. 

As I said earlier, the motor is like a transmission in an ICE. So, top speed and/or low end torque is a mater of gearing. If the torque curve can fit the application well enough, you may not need any gearing. If you can match it by gearing up or down, ok. If you can't, you need more than one ratio.
If your motor(s) can convert the energy given up by your battery and not overheat, you win. If your vehicle is lighter, it's easier. Spin a motor with no load, how much current does it draw? Spin it driving a light vehicle, spin it driving a heavy vehicle. . . 
I've not done any calculations. . . but, it seems a bit beyond the requirement to run two 9" motors in such a small and light vehicle. I don't think you can load one 9" motor enough to cause significant overheating problems if you have decent cooling.
Perhaps I'll send you a nice 9" motor to try.. 
Build two carts, one with dual Kostov's and dual Soliton1's. Other with one Zilla and my GE 9". Same battery. Now, try and catch me. 
What is the weight difference??


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## Jordysport (Mar 22, 2009)

DIYguy said:


> Sorry, but that is all baloney.
> 
> As I said earlier, the motor is like a transmission in an ICE. So, top speed and/or low end torque is a mater of gearing. If the torque curve can fit the application well enough, you may not need any gearing. If you can match it by gearing up or down, ok. If you can't, you need more than one ratio.
> If your motor(s) can convert the energy given up by your battery and not overheat, you win. If your vehicle is lighter, it's easier. Spin a motor with no load, how much current does it draw? Spin it driving a light vehicle, spin it driving a heavy vehicle. . .
> ...


What does baloney mean? never heard of that phrase. 

But yes I am certainly reconsidering, I'm looking at single kostov 9" with soliton 1 limited to 500A peak (yes a bit overkill but future proofing it if i was to go dual motor in the future) This single motor setup achieves a terminal velocity of 205.875mph with a gearing of 2.01:1 . 

Top speed is not only about gearing otherwise i'd just put a stupid gear ratio on it and achieve 500mph. its either Power (Ultimatly Torque) Limited or Gearing Limited. 

Yes i see what your getting at a light vehicle requires much less Amps than an huge truck like a L200. and the lighter the vehicle the less force required to accelerate it (F=ma) thus less energy is converted into thermal energy. 

"I've not done any calculations. . . but, it seems a bit beyond the requirement to run two 9" motors in such a small and light vehicle."

Drag force is related to velocity^2 as i'm sure your aware and to gain 50% speed its going to take a huge power increase or drag reduction to achieve that. but i'm going to keep it simple go for single kostov motor (mainly kostov for cost aswell) and a small 20ah AMP20 80s1p pack should suffice for the moment

Yes please send me a nice 9" motor that would be delightful  

Jordy


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## DIYguy (Sep 18, 2008)

Jordysport said:


> What does baloney mean? never heard of that phrase.


I was just being a smart a$$. It means that your statement has little real value. You would be lucky to draw 2000 amps even for a second or two and it wouldn't be at 200 volts if you did. U sure wouldn't draw anything like that up to 6000 rmp. 
If your really want to run higher speeds, then u need to get the motor back in the rpm range where it has real torque. That's why I suggested a CVT. You could underdrive it and overdrive it. (I'm not saying you need this either.) 
Perhaps, you just change your sprocket when you want to go for a top speed run . . . like other cars that change differential ratios.

Because I am a bit cheap at times (unless I really want something I can't make) I DIY. I got the motor in the pics for free. Cost me two new bearings, some paint, a set of brushes and labour. Less than two hundred bucks. Find a good GE like this and advance the brush timing and u have a motor every bit as good as a Warp9 IMHO. 
Save your money for good batteries. 

Dont you have any electric fork lifts around you??? 



Jordysport said:


> But yes I am certainly reconsidering, I'm looking at single kostov 9" with soliton 1 limited to 500A peak (yes a bit overkill but future proofing it if i was to go dual motor in the future) This single motor setup achieves a terminal velocity of 205.875mph with a gearing of 2.01:1 .
> 
> Top speed is not only about gearing otherwise i'd just put a stupid gear ratio on it and achieve 500mph. its either Power (Ultimatly Torque) Limited or Gearing Limited.
> 
> ...


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## Jordysport (Mar 22, 2009)

DIYguy said:


> I was just being a smart a$$. It means that your statement has little real value. You would be lucky to draw 2000 amps even for a second or two and it wouldn't be at 200 volts if you did. U sure wouldn't draw anything like that up to 6000 rmp.
> If your really want to run higher speeds, then u need to get the motor back in the rpm range where it has real torque. That's why I suggested a CVT. You could underdrive it and overdrive it. (I'm not saying you need this either.)
> Perhaps, you just change your sprocket when you want to go for a top speed run . . . like other cars that change differential ratios.
> 
> ...


Oh right we don't have that phrase here in the UK, probably close to bullshit. 

Oh god yes we use different sprockets to change the ratio from 1:1 upto 5:1 so thats no problem that was the initial plan to swap them when needed its only a 5 min change. 

In the Uk there are a few electric fork lifts but here in the SW there quite rare as most people just use their tractors.


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## DIYguy (Sep 18, 2008)

Less severe than bullshit... lol How about poppycock? Isnt that British? lol

U have milk floats there, right? That will work.


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## Jordysport (Mar 22, 2009)

DIYguy said:


> Less severe than bullshit... lol How about poppycock? Isnt that British? lol
> 
> U have milk floats there, right? That will work.


Yes that sounds about right, living up to the stereotype and yes we live in cottages and eat scones & cream with a good cuppa all day long lol. wish that wasn't true lol. 

we have milk floats yes but now with these things called "super"markets coming in there getting rare lol. tbh would just prefer to buy the most efficient motor i can (in terms of Torque across a large rpm range in a small lightweight package, and with forklifts & milk floats a compromise has to be made on a few of those?


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## DIYguy (Sep 18, 2008)

Jordysport said:


> tbh would just prefer to buy the most efficient motor i can (in terms of Torque across a large rpm range in a small lightweight package, and with forklifts & milk floats a compromise has to be made on a few of those?


Not at all. I mean, I am not familiar with milk floats, but they are traction motors designed for trucks. I can tell you that GE fork lift motors are as good or better, (if getting the right ones) than WArp motors. Actually, Warp motors are fork lift motors, with some design improvements. GE's are probably better to start with. Either way, lots will work. Read the thread on it. 

I just built this 13" motor. It came out of a fork lift and was originally a compound wound motor. I made it into a series motor. I have a Shiva feeding it and it has insane power. Cost me $100 plus parts. A lot of time though and lots of head scratching. But I learned a ton.


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## Jordysport (Mar 22, 2009)

DIYguy said:


> Not at all. I mean, I am not familiar with milk floats, but they are traction motors designed for trucks. I can tell you that GE fork lift motors are as good or better, (if getting the right ones) than WArp motors. Actually, Warp motors are fork lift motors, with some design improvements. GE's are probably better to start with. Either way, lots will work. Read the thread on it.
> 
> I just built this 13" motor. It came out of a fork lift and was originally a compound wound motor. I made it into a series motor. I have a Shiva feeding it and it has insane power. Cost me $100 plus parts. A lot of time though and lots of head scratching. But I learned a ton.


MMM shiney! I will see what fork lifts are about i know of 1 but think the motor is dud, but there not sure, i know i could get that for free. but don't know if theres any others down ere' in the westcountry. deffo worth an investigation.  I have looked at the thread but haven't had an in depth look as it seemed to be only applicable to yank fork lifts. will look into it more me thinks.


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

Jordysport said:


> MMM shiney! I will see what fork lifts are about i know of 1 but think the motor is dud, but there not sure, i know i could get that for free. but don't know if theres any others down ere' in the westcountry. deffo worth an investigation.  I have looked at the thread but haven't had an in depth look as it seemed to be only applicable to yank fork lifts. will look into it more me thinks.


Hi Jordy
Electric fork lifts
I did it backwards - 
bought a second hand lift on TradeMe (like EBay) 
stripped it down - motors not suitable - bugger -
Sold the bits - nearly broke even
I tried to sell some of the bits to a guy with a similar forklift 
he put me onto a forklift repair business 
Sorted! - lovely unit just rebuilt for $100
(Ex Nissan forklift)

There are two forklift repair shops in Invercargill - population 40,000

I am sure that if you look for forklift repair shops you can find one locally

Electric forklifts are used almost everywhere where the units are run inside buildings

Fire risk, air pollution - and getting soot on the merchandise

Believe me the "West Country" is densely populated compared to Southland


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## Jordysport (Mar 22, 2009)

Duncan said:


> Hi Jordy
> Electric fork lifts
> I did it backwards -
> bought a second hand lift on TradeMe (like EBay)
> ...


Yeah on average its high, 140 people per sqr km but where i am its more like 3 per sqr km. 

On my industrial estate we only have petrol forklifts. no one really bothers with electric. 

But i will have a look, possibly something in Exeter or Plymouth.


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

Jordysport said:


> Yeah on average its high, 140 people per sqr km but where i am its more like 3 per sqr km.
> 
> On my industrial estate we only have petrol forklifts. no one really bothers with electric.
> 
> But i will have a look, possibly something in Exeter or Plymouth.


Southland as a whole is 2.8 
But if you take out Invercargill and Gore it drops to to less than 1

Electric are useful inside - look at big retail or food operations 
Or just go straight to fork lift repair shops


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## Jordysport (Mar 22, 2009)

Duncan said:


> Southland as a whole is 2.8
> But if you take out Invercargill and Gore it drops to to less than 1
> 
> Electric are useful inside - look at big retail or food operations
> Or just go straight to fork lift repair shops


My mate has got one thats dud he thinks the batteries are dud, but will have a look at take some pictures and post on here.


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

Hi Jordy

You should read the thread on fork lift motors

As well as the motors (normally 2)
You get (to keep)
Contactors, cables, connectors, switches, drive adapters
useful bits of metal to make things

And (to sell)
Batteries
Forks and mast - really useful stick them on the back of your tractor
Scrap metal - lots

My motors were useless but essentially I got a pile of bits that would have cost hundreds if not thousands of dollars - free

Only issue is dismantling it - those bits are HEAVY


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## DIYguy (Sep 18, 2008)

Jordysport said:


> My mate has got one thats dud he thinks the batteries are dud, but will have a look at take some pictures and post on here.


Pictures would be most helpful. Make sure you get some close ups of the brushes and see if you can count the commutator bars/segments. You are looking for a motor with 4 terminals typically. If it has more, it may be a compound wound/Sepex (unless it's AC) and if two, may be uni-directional . . like the pump motor. . which you probably don't want since they are often rated for intermittent duty.


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## Jordysport (Mar 22, 2009)

DIYguy said:


> Pictures would be most helpful. Make sure you get some close ups of the brushes and see if you can count the commutator bars/segments. You are looking for a motor with 4 terminals typically. If it has more, it may be a compound wound/Sepex (unless it's AC) and if two, may be uni-directional . . like the pump motor. . which you probably don't want since they are often rated for intermittent duty.


Had a look at it today but can't get to the motor as the batteries are still in it. but its a Hyster 3.0XL the plate says its 72V thats all i've got atm.


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## DIYguy (Sep 18, 2008)

Jordysport said:


> Had a look at it today but can't get to the motor as the batteries are still in it. but its a Hyster 3.0XL the plate says its 72V thats all i've got atm.


Hysters often used GE motors, so that's a good sign. A 72 volt motor usually indicates higher bar count so, good for conversions. Not nessesarily good for super high current but could b good. What is the lift capacity of the truck? If its in the 6000 lb range could be a 9 " if 8000 could be 11. If 12000 or more, could b a 13". None of that is for sure. Just kindof what I've seen. . . But I'm no lift truck expert. Keep afer it.


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## Jordysport (Mar 22, 2009)

DIYguy said:


> Hysters often used GE motors, so that's a good sign. A 72 volt motor usually indicates higher bar count so, good for conversions. Not nessesarily good for super high current but could b good. What is the lift capacity of the truck? If its in the 6000 lb range could be a 9 " if 8000 could be 11. If 12000 or more, could b a 13". None of that is for sure. Just kindof what I've seen. . . But I'm no lift truck expert. Keep afer it.


So it would be worth whipping out the cells then? We think something has gone wrong with it, before it broke it seemed to be getting slower and slower, and then it got fixed and after a while there was a loud bang and it stopped. I am thinking that might be the contactors or the mass of electronics in the back. or it could be the clutch/gearbox. so I would have to check if the motors any good.


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## Jordysport (Mar 22, 2009)

DIYguy said:


> Hysters often used GE motors, so that's a good sign. A 72 volt motor usually indicates higher bar count so, good for conversions. Not nessesarily good for super high current but could b good. What is the lift capacity of the truck? If its in the 6000 lb range could be a 9 " if 8000 could be 11. If 12000 or more, could b a 13". None of that is for sure. Just kindof what I've seen. . . But I'm no lift truck expert. Keep afer it.


It will be 3 ton lift capacity as its a 3.0XL so 6613lbs give or take. so its looking promising that could be a nice 9"


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## Batterypoweredtoad (Feb 5, 2008)

Despite really wanting someone to see what a Kostov 220V will take, I will second the "check a forklift repair shop" suggestion. The one I went to with an old time EV guy around here had 3-4 shelves 25 ft long each about 2 feet deep in motors. They ranged from scrap weight price to around $200 for ones that looked brand new. 
DiyGuy, don't the Kostov or Netgain have some advantages like kevlar banding, better brushes, better bearings, heavier duty interior windings, etc..? If so how hard is it to duplicate this?


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## DIYguy (Sep 18, 2008)

Batterypoweredtoad said:


> DiyGuy, don't the Kostov or Netgain have some advantages like kevlar banding, better brushes, better bearings, heavier duty interior windings, etc..? If so how hard is it to duplicate this?


I may not be the best person to answer. . but I can answer some of it. The Netgain motors now come with Helwig Red Top split brushes. You can buy these direct from Helwig and any configuration you want. I have done it.

Banding seems to be based on the original design and probably connected to application rpm. Most motors have some, some motors have more. It can be kevlar or wire wrapped. Banding can be added after the fact, but I have never done it. 

The commutator construction can differ and it may be that the Kostov's have some advantage here with a wedge shape or something like that sticks in my mind. This is for higher rpm. Again, there are a few construction methods. Some racers have actually added a small groove at the end of the com and put banding. I've also heard of one adding a small amount of banding in the thin space between where the brushes are contacting. 

As for bearings, I don't think there is any difference. You can buy anything you like and they are relatively easy to change, when motor is apart. 

As for windings, the cross sectional area is in ratio between the field winding and the armature. This can vary a fair bit but the two points that seem to be constant from my knowledge/experience are; lighter (smaller cross section) on both interpoled motors, and motors with higher com bar counts. (This isn't always a bad thing, it depends on your intended purpose). The GE motors seem to be among the best candidates. They tend to have a bit better brush gear also. 

One thing about the lift motors, is that they usually have splined shafts. Don't let this scare you away. I have had them turned and keyed. I have also fitted them with spline couplers. The spline shafts will take higher forces.

The best source of motor information you can find (probably anywhere) is from Jeff Major. He taught me a lot although. . he likes to make you do your own homework to some extent. . .which is really the best.


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