# Big 13, Pulling Tractor and Sand Rail



## gte718p (Jul 30, 2009)

If your going to run one to one why not just bolt the motor to the pinion?

Thought about rotating the pinion 90 degrees and having the motor vertically above it?


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## Jimdear2 (Oct 12, 2008)

gte718p said:


> If your going to run one to one why not just bolt the motor to the pinion?
> 
> Thought about rotating the pinion 90 degrees and having the motor vertically above it?


gte718p

We did think about both of your suggestions but in the end decided to go with a stack because

One to One may not be the final rato (dual use)
Ease of sprocket change.
Torque transfer paths at 2000 Amps 330 volts
Weight location on the tractor.
Simplicity.
Thanks for the suggestions. I know that there is somethings we have missed and someone will bring them up and save the day.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

Sounds like a great design, Jim.

I like the idea of the quick change sprockets for track conditions and sand rail use, sounds an ideal set up.

I can't wait for the photos.

Maybe we should have www. diyelectrictractor. com?


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## Jimdear2 (Oct 12, 2008)

Well after a good long time of bad health, lack of money, being busy with household stuff and keeping up the 2 electric pullers we have now, we have finally got back to the 13 inch motor puller.

So; to date we have the motor disassembled, and built an adjustable brush rig. Removed all excess metal, cleaned up and smoothed out all of the all of the nasties and now have the motor ready to powder coat and assemble. See attached photo of the brush rig.

We also went to town on the rear axle. I swapped out the limited slip and mounted the small brake discs from a hydrostatic cub cadet to the axles. After that we built the motor mount and hitch attachmemts and welded them to the rear axle. See photo motor mtg & hitch attach. The mount is designed just to locate the motor, there is a torque reaction plate that bolts to the front of the motor and transfers twist into the rear axle. The torque plate will also have a chain box welded onto it to contain the #60 drive chain and tensioner. You will see the torque plate leaning against the wheel in the last photo.

We removed the brake calipers from the Quad runner front end and then bolted then welded tabs to the axle to mount the calipers onto that centered the caliper over the discs that I attached to the Ford axle shafts. See photo of the brake caliper mounted inside the 12x12x26 inch aluminium wheels with chevron cut pulling tires.

I had located a nice quad runner front end and will mount 12 inch shocks on it (12 inch solid tubes temporaraly mounted now). This lowers the front end to give about 5 inches of ground clearance which matches the rear with 26 inch tires. This also allows us to reinstall the 14.5 inch shocks which will keep everything level when we mount 15 inch wheels with 32 inch sand paddles for sand drags. Also got lucky and found some nice aluminum Douglas quad runner wheels with scooter tires on them. See photo of Quad front end. We will be using a modified cub cadet steering box

I've been lucky in that I found a prototype 1 inch thinwall jigbuilt tube frame that is almost perfect to tie the front and rear end together. It just needs to be widened. unnecessaries removed. cleaned up and a couple of tabs and struts welded on. See photo Frame.

So for the grand finale I placed the major components in their approximate locations along with a plastic racing seat and a fiberglass John Deere hood and grill and end up with what you see in the photo Components Aligned.

If you squint a little you can almost see how it's going to look, Squint harder and you will see a roll cage over the seat and 24 Hawker 16 amp hr batteries in racks between the frame rails from under the seat and back and also the controller mounted behind the seat. There will be some nice fenders over the rear wheels of course.

I hope to have the frame welded in place before I have to run off to another pull this weekend. Might even get it to move (12 volt jumper) before the end of the month.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Nice Jim. I don't know how I missed this thread before?! Anyway, I am here with popcorn in hand, ready to ride! 

I love how your components are coming together.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

That's looking good Jim, can't wait to see a rolling chassis.

I should get myself one of those seats, looks the business without being flashy.


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## Jimdear2 (Oct 12, 2008)

Woodsmith said:


> That's looking good Jim, can't wait to see a rolling chassis.


I cut the frame today while waiting for the doctors appointment then I placed it in position. It fits even better then I thought it might. It begining to look diownright sexy. No picture today, I forgot to bring the camera. I'll put something up tomorrow.




Woodsmith said:


> I should get myself one of those seats, looks the business without being flashy.


Here is a link to a speedshop on our side of the pond. 
http://www.summitracing.com/search/?keyword=Seat&dds=1
as you can see they are cheap.

You can get a cover, seat and adjustable rails for around 70 - 80.00 USD. But it is a VERY hard seat. Better you go the the dismantelers for a real seat with real cushions. The older we get the less cushion we have behind us.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

Thanks for the link, Jim, those prices are good!

I was thinking of keeping the seats from the MR2 if I end up selling it in bits but a bomber seat, like Fishguts has, would be good in the trike.

I could just fit a comfy seat to the tractor I suppose, it would make up for not having suspension.

I always use the camera on my phone so I am never without it.
Looking forward to the photos of the frame.


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## Jimdear2 (Oct 12, 2008)

Well I spent half a day today waiting on the guy that delivers my breathing oxygen so I didn't get as much done as I had hoped,

I didn't get the battery racks or the new sprocket welded up for the other two Pulling tractors. Since we pull this Saturday that will be my first order of busness tomorrow, then back to work on the the Big 13. As I said I had cut the frame but didn't have pictures. Well I clamped the frame to the rear axle to mark the holes for mounting the frame to the axle and make a couple of other measurements, then I took some photos today. See below.

I found a great deal on eBay for the clutch masters. $4.99 each for rebuilt cylinders. The shipping was more then the parts. I've pretty much got the pedal design figured out but I need to know the driver's (Darin) preferance on throttle and brake position. 

Tomorrow we should get the frame attached to the front and rear end and have a rolling chassis WOO HOO.

My partner Darin is doing the powder coat to the motor at his house tonight and tomorrow so we should be able to mount the motor next week since Friday will be spent on gettig ready for Saturday's pull. 

More tomorrow.
Jim


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Now sand drags are a little closer to my alley!  This is looking so sweet! Is the rear going to be solid (welded directly to the rear end) or will it have suspenders?


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## Jimdear2 (Oct 12, 2008)

toddshotrods said:


> Now sand drags are a little closer to my alley!  This is looking so sweet! Is the rear going to be solid (welded directly to the rear end) or will it have suspenders?


It will be solid. We are bolting the frame to the rear axle using 4 1/2x13 grade 8 allen bolts on each side. The frame bolts to two 1/2 inch thick plates that were bored and slid over the axle tube and then welded into place equadistant with the pinion center line. This was done during tha axle narrowing process.

There will also be a roll cage tied to the front end and the axle.

The beauty of this stacked motor over diff design is all of the torque reaction is concentrated into the rear axle assembly which is a very sturdy piece. This allows a very light frame. 1350 lbs. with driver is a hard target.

Pulling with a rear suspension is a real No No. and I looked at some converted asphalt dragster sand rails they also do not use rear suspension.

I'm hoping this will be classed with other quad type sand racers (that's why the quad front end). A quad with a 180 HP Hayabusa is a pretty awsome machine so we will have our problems geting a win here.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Cool. 




Jimdear2 said:


> ...The beauty of this stacked motor over diff design is all of the torque reaction is concentrated into the rear axle assembly which is a very sturdy piece. This allows a very light frame. 1350 lbs. with driver is a hard target...


I don't remember whether it was ever mentioned to you, but I was planning a future street rod with the same philosophy. It wasn't for racing and was going to use a small 6.7" motor and really lightweight custom rear end setup, driven by a 3" belt. I killed the project though, and sold the motor. It's a really neat idea, and the ease of changing gear ratios is like having an expensive quick-change rear end.





Jimdear2 said:


> ...I'm hoping this will be classed with other quad type sand racers (that's why the quad front end). A quad with a 180 HP Hayabusa is a pretty awsome machine so we will have our problems geting a win here.


I can only imagine. I have ripped through a few gears on a mildly modded 'busa - pulls nice.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

Excellent photos, Jim, I need to be careful that I don't stray from my trike project.

I see what you are saying about the motor position keeping the drive torque in one place. I may have to think about that for the trike to allow me to reduce weight in the chassis. It would take a lot of chassis to support the weight and the torque form the 12" motor.

It's great seeing how things are working in your workshop. I like building on the bench but I don't have the room to have the floor as well.

I'm looking forward to the rolling chassis photos, I even have popcorn at the ready in case you shoot video.


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## Jimdear2 (Oct 12, 2008)

A breif update on the build, got some work done yeaterday.

No pictures, just a big rush to get to a pull today. Beautiful weather (for a change) nothing broke on any of the three tractors and my partner tried his 60 volt to 120 volt overdrive. WOW it came on so sudden and so hard he lost the throttle pedal. Going to be hard to beat him when it's refined.

Anyway, the front and back end are now attached and the steering is half done. The hood mounting is dimensioned and the dash and steering column support has been bent up and will be welded in when the hood hinge is completed. The rear portion of the hood will rest on the dash panel.

The motor is a bit of a hold up right now. The end bells are done and look great, the barrel though weighs between 75 and 100 lbs and my buddy will need help geting it in the powder coat oven. I just can't help him, so we wait. 

I got the two reman clutch master cylinders I ordered from ebay. At $5.00 each complete with adjustable push rod and attached reservoir. What a deal.

Started laying out the pedal and cylinder mount. 

Back at it tomorrow , I'll post a few photos of the progress.

See ya later.


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## Jimdear2 (Oct 12, 2008)

I am a little behind today so i'm moving some description text from an eMail I sent to someone else. Since I retired I seem to have less time to get things done then when I was still working, go figure.

We mounted the hitch box a little differently then most do so we can experiment with down pressure. The way we did it allows a lot of different adjustments to control down pressure on the rear tires that is caused by the downward angle of the chain to the sled. More holes will be drilled so we will be able to adjust from a 6 inch to a 10 inch distance from the center line of the axle and up and down 10 inches to 16 inches. This should really allow fine tuning. We welded the mounting plates for the hitch box directly to the cast steel pig as well as to the tubes so theree should be plenty of strengththere.

Took some better photos of the disc brake set up, those are 9 inch steel discs from a dual disc set that is used on the hydrostatic drive Cub Cadet. The discs use the same pattern as Ford and Chrysler so all I had to do was drill the discs from the 7/16 studs to 1/2 inch then prepare the back side of the axle flange to be true and flat. Then I knocked out the studs and then pulled them back in with the disc in place. Since these brakes are seldom used, the steel discs should be OK.

The calipers as I said before are from the Yamaha quad front end They are currently bolted to the flange that the original drum brake backing plate mounted to. Later we will also be spot welding them to prevent movement.

There are some shots of the rear attach points for the new frame to the 3 x 6 inch bolt pattern drilled in the mounting plates welded to the rear axle tube. The existing mounting points were very close and only needed a bit of mill work to match them up.

For set up purposes I have the seat temporally clamped down on some angle iron crossbars so it can be moved to locate it and help with the final location of steering brakes and throttle.

The one shot of the hood down is its final position. I made up some brackets that allowed a lot of adjustment. we fiddled with It until we could get the hood to open and close properly. 

As the tractor is now the length is 6 foot wheel base and 71 inches from center line of the rear axle to the most forward part of the tractor (you are allowed 72 inches). 

We welded in the steering column and dash panel support tube. It was bent to allow mounting of a dash to the angled portion to match the angle of the closed hood. So the hood when closed rests on the pivot points behind the front bumper and on the dash panel.

The other shots show the front end to frame attachment points. You should also see the original steering column and upper bearing. I cut off the column and relocated the upper bearing and support about 16 inches lower. The cub cadet steering gear we have will be cut to length mounted into the area behind the dash and up through the dash.and shortened as necessary. we will weld a arm to the factory tube and use a drag link to connect the cub's Pittman arm to the welded on arm. 

The area just before and just behind the seat will have two trays made up, one to carry six Hawker 16 ah batteries and one to carry 12.. The remaining batteries (depending on how many good ones we still have next year) will be mounted in movable (for weight balance adjustment) outriggers. We will either buddy up 24 batteries and go with 160 static volts and 300 + amps or less depending on weight and good batteries and of course the controller we can come up with. A single string could allow as much as 360 static voltage and 150 to 200 amps.

Once the seat and battery locations are finalized we will build a dual tube 1.5 inch tube roll cage ( not required for this class, but it will look pretty)

We are still looking at an under seat box for the controller and contacter. other suggestions have been made like a tray over the motor and inside either a clear box or a big air scoop

The final pictures are of the two end bells in their near chrome powder coat with the brush rig and other parts, if you look close you will see the brush rig adjustment arm and turn buckle. Also see tha armature I'm sure you have lifted the arm from your 12 inch, poor Darin had to carry it in from his truck <Ouch>. 

I thought I would ask the people following the build, since it has a John Deere garden tractor hood we have been thinking about finally nameing the tractor, 

Electric Deere

What do you all think?

Back to work.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

Nice work there, Jim.

The green and yellow of the JD tractors always reminds me of earthing cable.

















I wonder if there is a name in there?

I like the idea of a big air scoop to 'keep the controller cool', especially if it was a nice looking one.

I know the weight of a 12" armature, I have just been carrying my 12" motor, intact, across the floor to change the set up of the trike.
Dad watched but didn't offer to help. Guess I looked like I was managing.


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## Jimdear2 (Oct 12, 2008)

Woodsmith said:


> Nice work there, Jim.
> 
> I like the idea of a big air scoop to 'keep the controller cool', especially if it was a nice looking one.
> 
> ...


 
Woody,

I'm leaning towards the scoop as well, just have to see how the necessary stuff fits in first and check the weight.

As far as moving the motors arround, a hint

http://www.harborfreight.com/movers-dolly-93888.html

They can be found even cheaper at resale and estate sales. Get one and save your back.

As far as you dad not helping you move heavy stuff . . .

Age = wisdom. Tell him I said so.

I had found a nice nesting spot in the front end for ten pound barbell weights so I decided to adapt the OEM hood mount to allow it to tilt forward. I made one set of brackets that positioned the hood properly and installed the rear support console. 

Then the fun began . . . this got in the way of that, plus that had to route around something else. Well after four hours of making and remaking I'm within a half inch again (for the fourth time). At that point I gave up and will get back at it today.

I like building on a bench as well (my first tractor was done on a picnic table). Unfortunatly the shop space I am now using is a friends home machine and fab shop. He needs floor space when he gets a hot water stove, or buggy part order so I have to keep things mobile.

My home shop was/is an old dirt floor farm shed that had the roof material fail when my health failed and water leaked over everything, plus ground hogs got under the wood flooring. A real mess the, triple engine puller I had started has pretty much rusted useless. 

I'm doing home stuff this morning and will get back to beating (maybe literally) that hood hinge into place arround noon. Maybe I'll have the steering done as well today.


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## Jimdear2 (Oct 12, 2008)

Well another day with minor progress. Lots of fiddle work.

Finally got that hood to open and close without binding and remain centered. Now all I need to do is make two offset arms to weld to the pivot shaft so I can mount the hood springs. Whew glad thats over.

Cut a dash panel out of some 1/8 inch aluminium plate. First time I've cut aluminium with a plasma cutter, smelly. Then I aligned and fixed the support hoop with the dash clamped into place so the hood closes flush to the dash panel. Then I tied the support hoop to the frame with a strut to make it rigid so the dash wont move and make the structure strong enough to support the steering column. 

Built the bracketry needed to mount the lower end of the steering gear to the support strut. Then I ran into that old problem. The one thing I need to finish the job isn't here.

Tomorrow is another day. More photos tomorrow.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Really impressive stuff Jim, looking forward to seeing how it all comes together.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

Good progress, Jim.

I've not used a plasma cutter yet though I know someone who has one to play with. He is a bit too far away to be handy though.
I am looking at a tig welder that is cheap on the bay. Hopefully it will stay cheap.

I have the parts to make one of those 'shifting' dollies, I should just make it one day and also put a small hoist in the workshop to lift stuff on and off the bench.

I think your tractor could be just 'Jim Deere' with an electric spark logo between the two names.


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## Jimdear2 (Oct 12, 2008)

Well . . . I spent the day rebuilding the steering. Since we are using very thin wall mild steel 1 inch tubing, the first time I tried to turn the steering with weight on the wheels every thing flexed like a rubber band.

I usually use 1 inch square tubeing with twice the wall thickness when building a tractor and set up the initial attempt like I would with the square tubeing. I cut everything out and went back and started addeing braces until I got it rock solid. With the new geometry I get 1 1/4 turn lock to lock, just perfect.

Unfortunatly the changes in the steering are going to require moving the hood 1/2 inch rearward. Back at that tomorrow. 

My partner will be coming over tomorrow to help out, he does the heavy welding. My lungs can't stand the fumes, I just spot and tack weld the pieces into position. He does the electrical and motor work. 

While he is there I'll demension the seat position and place the two master cylinders for the differential steeering brakes. He gets to drive this monster. He is younger with better reactions.

If the figureing I did holds out this thing should have 1850 pound V8 Mini Rod tractor wheel speed in a 1350 pound class. Should be very sudden

He is doing the powder coat at his place and was having some trouble getting that motor frame into the oven. He finally rebuilt his motorcycle lift into a kind of forklift. If he gets it done today maybe we can mount the motor into the chassis tomorrow.

I should get some photos tomorrow of the new steering set up and anything else, like I hope the motor.

More tomorrow night.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

Jimdear2 said:


> Well . . . I spent the day rebuilding the steering. Since we are using very thin wall mild steel 1 inch tubing, the first time I tried to turn the steering with weight on the wheels every thing flexed like a rubber band.


And you dig at me for building heavy duty!

It is good reading the progress you are making.
Looking forward to the photos.

What sort of drawbar pull are you hoping to get?


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## Jimdear2 (Oct 12, 2008)

Woodsmith said:


> What sort of drawbar pull are you hoping to get?


Woody,

The sled we pull is a pretty complex device as I'll explain below. The average sled is just a weight box moved over a frame by a chain, driven by one or possibly two transmissions that are driven by ground power, usually a car or truch axle (effectivly a drivetrain in reverse). The drag plate is fixed. These sleds require a lot of weight changes to keep them competitive. They are fairly easy to beat by an experianced driver. The sled operator has to be on his toes to keep stopping the tractors within 300 feet

If I understand your question, my answers follow. On our sled, for the initial pull with the weight box balanced over the tires, we have to over come approx 9500 lbs. of inertia with about 350 lbs of dead weight on the plate.

From that point the weight box, which I beleive carries between 3400 and 4000 lbs., advances at varying speeds. The box, driven by ground power, and depending on the gear ratios selected (with four gearboxes there are a lot of ratios), and transfers more and more weight to the plate increasing the dead weight drag.

The plate, as we start out, is angled up on the back edge by air cylinders and is tripped down at a specific point. This point is set by the sled operator using a movable trip switch, triggered as the box moves forward. This increases the drag by a huge amount. That is why, when watching a pull, you see the tractor which is sailing along at a good clip suddenly start slowing to a halt. These kinds of sleds put on a really good show for the crowd and give the driver a really good rush. You can get a long pull without going out the door and this keeps the measured distance for all tractors within a small variation. 

There are a number of appliances (rakers and shovel plates) attached to the drag plate that can be adjusted to increase the drag of the plate to a unbeleivable amount. With my double engine tractor it is enough to throw you against the shoulder harness with a pertty good blow. I've heard that some of the V8 guys get bruises.

Then to add the final insult, there are a couple of floating wheels at the back of the sled that, when their trip switch is set, can be jacked down with air bags, this effectivly increases the wheelbase. OUCH.

As you can see we don't get a lot of full pulls. Ray Sheppard the owner operator of our little sled has been pulling and operating most of his life. He is a really good operator.

Hope this has answered your questions. There are a lot of other sled types, I've tried to cover ours which has quite a few of the better "tricks" on it. There are a couble of blogs and articles covering weight transfer sleds, if you want to look them up. One of the better ones covers an British built garden tractor sled that used an Audi 5 cylinder engine.

As a bit of history, the original weight transfer sleds were stone boats that were dragged down the track. As it went along, assigned spectators would step up onto the sled at specified distances. You can still see this done at antique tractor pulls at fairs and festivals.

JIm


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

Gotcha Jim.
I knew roughly how the pulls work but didn't know that there were so many aspects to increasing the difficulty of the pull.
I guess, as you say, it keeps the pulls to a similar length so everyone gets a good show from it.

Has anyone measured the line pull from the hitch? I was thinking in the same way a tug boat or a railway locomotive would demonstrate pulling power by pulling on a giant spring balance fixed to an immovable object.

I can imagine something like a crane scale hooked between tractor and sled during the pull would record the drawbar pull. It would show who is actually pulling hardest on the hook. I suppose they already have ways of determining that in the competitions.

One of my Lego Technic truck models can get a 2kg winch line pull on a spring balance for about 5 seconds before the plastic gears friction weld themselves together.


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## Jimdear2 (Oct 12, 2008)

WOOHOO YAA, YIPPEE

It steers, it rolls, the seat dimensions are set, the steering column is cut to length and the rear wheels are back on. Much progress.

I had to go into the steering and place braces everywhere and then move the steering arm that was welded to the Yamaha steering column. So mow the Cub Cadet steering box drives the Yamaha linkage. This gives just over 1 turn lock to lock.

We got the dash positioned and the hood remounted to close flush to the dash. I am going to have to shim up the lower steering box mount so the steering wheel will be parallel to the dash face, a minor job.

For grins I took a picture with Darin in the seat to give an idea of the size of the thing. Then I placed the end bells of the motor into the mount to show the size of that 13 inch beast. Lots of motor for a little tractor.

We plan to have the motor togeather and running by Friday. We will do the obligatory 12 volt run and maybe even drive it around a bit on 12 volts. 

Next order of business is to build the differential brake pedal and master cylinder mounts, one for each side. We decided to go with the hand throttle that is customary with pulling tractors. Got to get these done before we try to drive it.

After the motor is mounted and connected I'll start on the chain box and tensioner.

We plan on the controller in a box built under a tilting seat and batteries everywhere they will fit. First pull will be either mid winter at an indoor or sometime in May at a test and tune. I might move my 72 volt 450 amp system from another tractor just to see before we disassemble for clean and paint.

Lord it feels good to have something finally fall into place.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

Jimdear2 said:


> I thought I would ask the people following the build, since it has a John Deere garden tractor hood we have been thinking about finally nameing the tractor,
> 
> Electric Deere
> 
> ...


How about:
'Quiet, Deere!'
'Absolutely shocking, Deere!'
'It's only 13 inches, Deere! '


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## Jimdear2 (Oct 12, 2008)

Woodsmith said:


> How about:
> 'Quiet, Deere!'
> 'Absolutely shocking, Deere!'
> 'It's only 13 inches, Deere! '


 
Cute I'll have to think on those names. I don't think the last one would go over too well with some of the ladies in the club.

We are thinking about stripping out the 72 volt 450 amp controller from the Different tractor after this next pull on Sunday and installing it into the 13 for the last pull with this cub the following weekend. It would only be half the power we plan but is would be interesting.

Got one brake master cylinder mounted and pedal made up the other side is 3/4 done. I'll pick up brake lines and fluid tomorrow.

Good news, the motor frame is painted and Darin is bringing it out tomorrow so we can assemble the motor.

Should stop, go and steer tomorrow night.

Later,
Jim

Tomorrow should be a big dat


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

Jimdear2 said:


> Cute I'll have to think on those names. I don't think the last one would go over too well with some of the ladies in the club.


I don't know, may raise a chuckle, and some interest. Just tell them it is girth not length.

Don't forget to shoot some video when you get it running, it would be great to see it move, and maybe show off its potential a little.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

That's why Big 13 is really the perfect name.  It sounds like it might be dirty, but it's just descriptive of the motor.


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## Jimdear2 (Oct 12, 2008)

JRP3 said:


> That's why Big 13 is really the perfect name.  It sounds like it might be dirty, but it's just descriptive of the motor.


JRP3,

Sometimes simple is best. We have used Big 13 as a working referance for so long it just sounds bleh. But for those just seeing it for the first time, the name might strike some interest, i.e. Big 13 what?

I'll have to see what Darin thinks, in the end he gets the tractor in my will, unless we sell it before I'm gone. 

Well we don't really need a final name until next spring. After pulling season the thing gets torn down for clean up, sand blast and paint. Might get the frame powder coated if the price is right.

We will look for sponsors over the winter (one reason I want it moving this fall) so the paint job can include any names we can get.

Thanks for your thoughts.

Jim


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## Jimdear2 (Oct 12, 2008)

Well, today was a real milestone. For those of you who are interested the motor is back together, in the tractor and turning the wheels.

BUT . . . I forgot to put the SD card back into the camera. Its a Pentax SLR that has no internal memory.

I also grabbed the video camera, BUT . . . the battery was dead (so was the spare) and I can't find the charger. Haven't used that camera since last year.

It's a 20 mile drive to home from Mike's shop, so photos are tomorrow. Just toooooooo tired to go back just for pictures.

After I get all my cameras working, I'm also going to take my wife's HP snapshot camera tomorrow as well. It also does video, poor video but OK for back up.

Still I've got to just say something, (Brag a bit) I am so up and happy that the motor is back together, installed and turning. My jaw hurts from grinning.

The near chrome powder coated end bells and powder blue frame really look good. We also painted the torque plate powder blue.

The motor, mount, chain drive, axle/frame and torque plate have never been all together at one time. It sure felt good to have the motor with torque plate just drop into place perfectly. All of the pieces fit together like they were made to.

Lordy, but that mother is heavy, but the brute just hums at 12 volts, no noise or vibration. Before we installed the motor I turned the frame over to weld up a few pieces and weld in a 22 x 52 inch piece of expanded metal as a floor. Another piece of the puzzle in place.

I need to finish the brakes and mount the seat, maybe I'll take it for a ride (jumper cables and battery) next week.

I am bushed, so I will rack out till tomorrow.

Jim


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

Excellent, Jim. Another great milestone passed.

I wish I could have been there to lend a hand, grinning.

One of these days we are going to have to get you a camera phone that you can have with you, charged up, where ever you go.

I guess that even on 12V it is going to have a fair bit of torque albeit slowly.


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## Bowser330 (Jun 15, 2008)

Jimdear2 said:


> WOOHOO YAA, YIPPEE
> 
> It steers, it rolls, the seat dimensions are set, the steering column is cut to length and the rear wheels are back on. Much progress.
> 
> ...



so how much does the new built 13" weigh?


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## Jimdear2 (Oct 12, 2008)

Bowser330 said:


> so how much does the new built 13" weigh?


Don't know yet.

Best guess with driver around 1250 to 1300 lbs. Class weight for electric ultralight over 72 volts (we are writing the rules) will be/is 1350 lbs. so far. Formal weighing, on the electronic scales, will be 9/3/2010 at a pull. We are going to weigh it without a roll cage for now.

This traactor is the first of it's kind, as far as we know. We want it approximatly equivalent to the over 800 to 1500 cc motorcycle engine class. 

We are using the bigest motor we can find with the most high output (22 Hawker 16 ah) batteries we can stuff into a frame this size to set a starting weight limit. We want to give a lot of room fo others to be creative.

I'll post the final weight.

Jim


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

Bowser330 said:


> so how much does the new built 13" weigh?


Well, my 12" motor weighs 114kg (251lbs). I wonder if Jim's 13" motor weighs more?


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## Jimdear2 (Oct 12, 2008)

Woodsmith said:


> Well, my 12" motor weighs 114kg (251lbs). I wonder if Jim's 13" motor weighs more?


Woody,

The motor weighed 305 lbs. on the bathroom scale when we got it. We removed a lot of OEM mounting material so I'm going to guess at around 285 to 290 lbs. It's still a heavy brute. 

Well as I said yesterday we got the motor assembled and in and hooked up the drive. I tried to get video of the motor turning but my wifes snapshop camera's SD card was too full to get any video and I was not brave enough to delete anything.

I worked on the hitch box which had to be narrowed 1/8 of an inch and I finished the right side master cylinder mount and pedal. Couldn't finish and bleed the brakes yet, need special line adapters which NAPA will have in the morning.

I do have a few pictures of the motor installed in the frame. See below, it is really BIG. When we installed it I had the jack under a frame cross member just about where the back of the seat is. As soon as the motor went into the mounts the front end jumped into the air, how about that . . . our first wheelie.

I'll get video tomorrow, I found the charger for my camera and am charging both batteries now.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

Way to go, Jim! 

That is a nice looking motor sat there, and congratulations on the wheelie.

What chain size and ratio are you using?


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## Jimdear2 (Oct 12, 2008)

Woodsmith said:


> Way to go, Jim!
> 
> That is a nice looking motor sat there, and congratulations on the wheelie.


Thanks, we hope to keep the front end down, but I fear not. That is why I have installed a front suspension to soften the drop and keep from bending things 



Woodsmith said:


> What chain size and ratio are you using?


It's number 60 chain. I don't know what the metric equivalent is. I hope it's strong enough. I don't have the math to figure it, so I don't know. I do know that number 80 chain and sprockets are expensive. 

The ratio is 1.2 to 1. should give us 25 to 35 MPH wheel speed and a ground speed of 12 or 13 MPH at 72 volts. I'm hoping for at least 2500 rpm. Going to go for 18 Hawker Genisis 16 ah batteries, 6 sets of 3 parallel. That should give us about 300 + amps at around 60 volts under load. A good start but only a third of the power we want.

I'm off to bed now, I'm still tired from last week.
Jim


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Great pics, I'll bet it's really impressive looking in person. I didn't see it, do you have a way to adjust for chain slack? Are you planning some shielding for the chain?


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## Jimdear2 (Oct 12, 2008)

JRP3 said:


> Great pics, I'll bet it's really impressive looking in person. I didn't see it, do you have a way to adjust for chain slack? Are you planning some shielding for the chain?


JRP3,

It is a bit shocking at first sight. You say to yourself "is that what I think it is" takes a moment to sink in. Each time I see it it is a bit awsome. I'll get used to it. Only 3 or 4 people have seen it with the motor installed, the look on some of their faces is a treat.

Yes to both guard and tensioner, chain guard is required. 

Darin forgot the chain tensioner when he brought the motor frame, fields and torque plate out for assembly.

I have the chain guard box drawn out in my head, just have to grab the plasma cutter and cut it out, weld and drill as required. Darin will powder coat it when I'm done.

I still want a EV six wheeler or tracked vehicle. I'll probably start on something this winter/next spring, when this thing is about finished. I'm finding that since I retired, if I'm not doing something constructive, I just sit and vegitate. Not good. I just need to start considering lawn mowing and house cleaning something constructive.


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## Jimdear2 (Oct 12, 2008)

Hi all, The last two days haven't been too productive. The heat and humidity have kept me hugging the air conditioning and trying to breath.

I did get a few things done. I did build up a nice adjustable seat mounting from the left over and scrap tubing (we ran out of thinwall 1 inch), then I finalized the brake line routing and length, then bent the lines. I'm waiting for final welding before installing the lines and bleeding the system. I also worked on refining the hitch box mounting.

One good bit of news about something I've been sweating about through the entire build, weight. Mike pulled out a old platform scale and we weighed the frame (all 4 wheels off the ground) with motor installed. The only things missing from a complete mechanical set up was the chain guard and hitch plate. Came out to 775 pounds. Add in a driver, 18 Hawker Genisis batteries at 13 lbs each, a controller and wiring and the hitch plate and chain guard and we are in under 1300 lbs. with a 1350 pound limit. What a releif.

No pictures or vids today I left in a fog (me not the weather) this morning and left the cameras behind. 

Going to pull at the county fair tomorrow so I might get some pictures and vids of my and the other electric tractors. I need to find someon to operate the cameras when we are pulling.

I will get the wheels rolling with 12 volt video up on youtube Monday and post some shots of the latest version.

Jim


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

Hey, that's good about the weight. It isn't always easy to keep track during a build and nothing beats actually weighing it.

It will be nice to see the photos an video from the pull tomorrow, see what others are doing.

Looking forward to the 12v run too.


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## Jimdear2 (Oct 12, 2008)

Got a bit more done on the Big 13. Got sick (my own fault) and couldn't get back to it till today.

But first a news flash . . .

I went pulling with the Cub Cadet and Something Different tractors at the Armada Fair Sunday night.

Won both classes, not a big deal with only one competitor, but a very enlightening time. The Cub has 48 volts with a 450 amp controller. We were on a good clay track, the darn thing just wouldn't stop. With good traction I was still pulling at less then 1 mph, pulled 395 amps unknown voltage (got to fix the voltmeter). Ended up with 293 feet. I don't think anything has ever kept pulling at so low a speed. That is until I ran the Different tractor (72 volts 450 amps)with the same sled set up as the up to 550cc motorcycle engine powered ultra lights. I did a full pull (306 feet) to their best 270 feet. The same thing happened, it just kept going & going & going (maybe the energizer bunny snuck it there).

No Pictures or videos of the pulls, no one to shoot pictures while I'm running.

On to the Big 13 build.

I'll attach a few pictures that covers the things I've only described up till now and a video (A VERY BAD VIDEO) of the motor turning the wheels.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=411ePrFSbl8

This video is not only terrible quality but it just stops at random times. I tried to delete it but run into a blinde end when followig the help directions.

I finished up the hitch box and adjustible hitch plate.

I still need to build the chain box, finish welding a few joints, install and bleed the brake lines, finish installing the PB6 throttle pot and hand throttle and do fenders. I have a set of my trademark bent fenders mounted on side panels that I had I built for the triple engine tractor that I'm going to sacrafice to this tractor.

Pictures in order of appearnce.

The resized hitchbox with the adjustible hitch plate.

The mounting for the PB6 throttle. I'm setting it up so it can be easily switched from right to left and it moves with the adjustible seat mounts.I will mount a hand throttle lever and link rod.

THe brake bedals and master cylinder mounts. The pedals have two different pivot points available and with the adjustible push rods can be positioned in a range of over 10 inches and still have enough stroke to work the brakes. Along with the seat adjustment that give us the ability to set up for drivers from about 5 feet to about 6 foot 3.

Another look at the adjustable seat mounts. The outer 1/2 tube slides into position and is clamped to the frame with two hose clamps, Eight total clamps on the four mount tubes. The tube that is spliced into the rear mount will be used to mount the seat belt.

Got the dash mounted using stainless hardware. We will either engine turn the dash or sand it dull with 600 and clear coat it. The steering wheel will be replacesd with something nicer. The two verticle tubes below the dash will have a nice aluminium panel installed. The expanded metal flooring should make cleanup easy.. The greenish tube welded in above the flooring is where the driver will brace his heels and keep his foot positioned over the steering brake pedals (fiddle brakes to you Woody).

Just another look at the torque plate, chain drive and motor and mounts. I am soooooo pleased with how that came out.

So tomnorrow it's back to it I'll take the fenders with me and pick up a bit of hardwear I need.

The plasma torch will make fitting the fenders a breeze the throttle is just a bit more fiddleing. So the chain box id really the only major item to do and I have that all wotked out on paper. So the plasma torch again to cut the shapes. A bit of welding, drilling and tapping and we should have the major portions done.

I'm going to pull the controller and stuff out of the Different tractor and temp install it so we can run it in the labor day pull. The different is going to be reworked (narrowed and lightened) this winter any way.

More later.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

That's great video there, Jim, so good to hear your voice.

It is really coming along with some neat fabrication, a bit light weight by my standards.

Well done on winning the pulls, both classes, WOW!
Shame there are no images. How did that audience, and the competition, take to your wins?


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## Jimdear2 (Oct 12, 2008)

Got quite a bit closer today to putting power to the ground. 

I got a battery pack together, it's a bit of this and that. I have two three battery buddy packs of 16 ah Hawkers mounted under the seat, then I have four 42 ah Powersonic AGMs under the drivers knees. the three packs and the Powersonics match up pretty well for voltage drop at the same amps. I say good enough for a try out.

I managed to sandwich the Something Different tractor's controller/contactor/relay box between the seat and chain box. A quarter inch to spare. Got the saftey tether done. All of the important wiring is done, we just need a place to hide the extra wire since I dont wan't to cut up the Something Different's stuff. It's just a loan

So all thats left is make wheelie bars, cut and modify the fenders, do a bit of welding, bleed the brakes and connect wires.

Piece of cake. One more day and it's rolling.

That gives me two whole days to get my Cub Cadet's motor advanced (maybe) and wire in two buddy packs of paralleled Hawkers WOOPEE. Might even get in a day of rest.

Anyway photos below pretty much self explanitory.

The tractor is pretty grotty right now with all of the temp stuff on it and a lot of rusty metal. But if you squint a bit I think you can see the silver frame blue fenders and hood. A pretty steering wheel a nice tach on the hood, a nice battery made up of Kokums or Headways, a nice roll bar when we get the smaller lighter battery and a nice looking controller under glass above the motor.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

Great work, Jim. Borrowing parts from another project works for me.

Are you putting any insulation over those battery terminals, they look really close to the metal work behind the seat rail.

Reminds me of the load of 8v Trojans the chap at the propshaft shop was trying to interest me in. When I raised my concern of the shorting risk of having a pile of propshafts stacked on top of them his reply was that 'It was ok as they were all discharged, but they are good cells!'.



Looking forward to the videos, popcorn at the ready.


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## Jimdear2 (Oct 12, 2008)

Woodsmith said:


> Great work, Jim. Borrowing parts from another project works for me.


Sure is a lot cheaper, Be nice to have something with a bit more voltage and amprage. The controller is rated at 72 volts and 450 amps. Kind of anemic for that motor. I can hit 400 + amps just hitting the throttle to full with the wheels off the ground. Well I didn't expect much, it will probably crawl down the track for a bit.



Woodsmith said:


> Are you putting any insulation over those battery terminals, they look really close to the metal work behind the seat rail.


I have some rubber matting I'll drape over stuff



Woodsmith said:


> Reminds me of the load of 8v Trojans the chap at the propshaft shop was trying to interest me in. When I raised my concern of the shorting risk of having a pile of propshafts stacked on top of them his reply was that 'It was ok as they were all discharged, but they are good cells!'.


Yep those are very good cell to take to the scrap yard.



Woodsmith said:


> Looking forward to the videos, popcorn at the ready.


There will for sure be something to watch about the big 13, If my freind Jeff's son is home I'll have him drive the Cub while I take videos. If not I try to get someone to do something. Darin is bringing his camcorder so I should get something.

Anyway Darin and I started at 8:00 am Darin went till 1:30pm and I went till 6:30 pm We got the welding done. We got the brakes working. We got the controller working from the throttle. I made up a temp. chain tensioner, just a rubbing block made from a piece of plastic cutting board, VERY noisy at first but getting better. Got the fenders mounted. Got the brake pedals set up. Seat is mounted and battery hold downs are made. 

Decided to go ahead with the reversing contactor, tachometer, amp gauge and runaway stopper. Darin will do that on Thursday.

All that is left is the wheelie bars. I have to take the tractor down from the jack stands to do that so I can get the positions right, I was just too tired so I'll do it in the morning.

I will take the maiden drive tomorrow. I'll see if I can get someone to hold Michele's little camera to try to get some footage. If all else fails I'll get some nice snapshots outside.

You all be well,
Jim


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## Jimdear2 (Oct 12, 2008)

YEE HAH!! YIPPEE!! WOO HOO!!

It's on the ground and moving on it's own (gone 3 feet several times).

No videos yet, it hooks tomorrow night for the first time. Camcorder WILL be there.

Only 72 volts and 450 amps, but it's a start.

A few photos below, kind of a walk around.

Got to go now to get the shop cleaned up. 

Jim


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

That is great news Jim, well done!

It is looking really good and nicely proportioned.
Good luck with the pull. Can't wait for video.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Waiting for the pull


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Pepsi is chilled. Dousing my popcorn with fat and cholesterol, er I mean butter! Ready for the big show...


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

As well as seeing Big 13 pull I also want to see it catching some air over the dunes!


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## Jimdear2 (Oct 12, 2008)

Woodsmith said:


> As well as seeing Big 13 pull I also want to see it catching some air over the dunes!


Woody and all of you,

We aim to please. I just emailed Darin to make sure he brings his video camera.

We worked on the tractor for a couple of hours to get the reversing contactor in and a few other things done. Finished up about 8 PM when we found we didn't have the double throw single pole switch we needed. 

I guess i'll have to make a trip to the hardware store in the morning.

Right now I'm sitting out in the middle of a big field next to the track. We've been breaking open the ground and dumping water on it all day. It is just starting to get gummy. We rolled it to seal it back up because it might rain. If it doesn't rain we are ready to break it back open drop 20,000 or 30,000 more gallons and then work it up to smooth it snd roll it out.

A flypaper superhighway

I'll try to post something Saturday, for sure Sunday

Jim


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## Jimdear2 (Oct 12, 2008)

Hi all you pulling fans,

Been back for a bit and am trying to phisically recover. Everything hurts. 

Pictures tonight and mabe videos tomorrow. Still haven't been able to unload the motorhome and get to the camera. I forgot again I'm not twenty years old and overdid it.

Anyway The Yellow Cub performed as expected. It just kept crawling and crawling. Fourty Eight volts is fine for around the farm but is very UN exciting when pulling. I got one good video of the yellow cub, I think, it went around 280 feet. I won the class, Electric Garden, by default. Darin kept blowing up batteries when he switched over from 60 volts on the controller to 120 volts on the contactor the motor would suck so many amps the his little 13 ah Hawkers would just go poof. While it worked it was prettty exciting. He was getting good power and had quite a bit of speed . . . until a battery blew up!!!. I think I got the event on video. Lots of smoke and acid.

The Big 13 got a lot of attention, It was photographed a lot. Even a lot of the other pullers commented on how good it looked and asked questions. I made sure that everyone understood, that with only 72 volts it was going to perform like a 454 big block with a small 1 bbl carb, and it did. It moved the sled and didn't break. In all the rush I forgot that I originally set up the gearing for a LOT more voltage. Firday night we got about a hundred feet, I expected more so I wasn't positioned well with the camera. 

Saturday morning we switched sprockets on the differential to the largest we had, went from 1.1 to 1 and got all the way up to 1.2 to 1 wow. We also went back to neutral brus timing, lowered the hitch and put more air in the tires and got another 50 feet. No action or flash, just a bit of improvement. 

Been priceing Headways, for a 256 volt 600 ah battery we are talking north of $6 k. OUCH, whatever we get, it can't weigh much more then 250 lbs.

We are thinking of regearing to 2 to 1 and going to a different club's pull on the 18th to see what effect that has.

Once I get the camera inside I'll check out the shots and post some photos.

Keep that popcorn handy.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Jimdear2 said:


> Been priceing Headways, for a 256 volt 600 ah battery we are talking north of $6 k. OUCH, whatever we get, it can't weigh much more then 250 lbs.


I assume "600 ah" is a typo.


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## Jimdear2 (Oct 12, 2008)

JRP3 said:


> I assume "600 ah" is a typo.


JRP,

WHOOPS, You betcher @$$ it was a typo. I had to go back to my original papers to get the initial estimate. Just a bit tired. Thats what I get for doing math in my head

600 amp draw capable. Thats 320 cells in 80S 4P configuration. Thats a 272 volt 32 ah battery that can do 20c or so = 640 amps for 15 seconds or so. Should weigh around 250 lbs. with hardware.

Thats figured from a spec I read a while back for the 38120s cells of 3.4 volts nominal and 8 ah and 20 C discharge and 10 C charge.

That's the battery I have wanted since I started this tractor. Actually I wanted 500 cells in a 100S x 5P but that is finacially out of reach. 

Thanks for catching it.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

Good going there, Jim.

No great rush for the photos, make sure you are well rested first.

If you can pull like that at 48v then I want to have a go with mine with a stronger axle.


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## Jimdear2 (Oct 12, 2008)

Woodsmith said:


> Good going there, Jim.
> 
> No great rush for the photos, make sure you are well rested first.
> 
> If you can pull like that at 48v then I want to have a go with mine with a stronger axle.


Woody,

Here is a youtube video of Darin on his cub at 120 volts.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e_PEgBJE7-s

The perfprmance was quite good, comparable to a hot 20 horse or a 16 hp modified alcahol burner . . . up until he blew a battery.

Very respectible performance. From this point on he blew a battery on each of three more runs, never getting more then 100 feet. He still came away happy.

I'm still waiting for Darin to process the other videos, so keep your popcorn ready.

Also adding a couple of still photos of my tractor (yellow cub) with a friends son on it and of Darin on his tractor (black cub) and finally of Darin on the 13. Not very exciting I know, just like pictures of someome eleses baby.

You mention the Wheel Horse breaker in another thread, if you can get one of those you are golden. Other then the fact that they are belt driven (you'll be going to chain) they are as strong or stronger then the cub, have 4 gears and reverse, and had an available low range. Get one of the four speeds and you will be able to pull right along with us. Get one with low range and you can move your house.

Photos below;


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

That's fantastic, Jim!
If this is like looking at other peoples babies then I'm happy to look!

I have just put my tractor away back into the trailer. 
Two gripes the first minor, the second got me really wound up.
Firstly the gearbox finally gave up, no drive, no noise, nothing. So I won't even bother opening it up and seeing if I can do a fix.
Secondly, some **** left their dog mess right outside my gates! I hate it when folks do that.

Anyway, your photos and video cheered me and put that grin right back on my face.

I found this on Ebay.
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=110582029443&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT
I don't think it will be up to the job though.
I will contact the Wheelhorse breaker to see if he has a proper transaxle available that is not listed.


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## Jimdear2 (Oct 12, 2008)

Woodsmith said:


> That's fantastic, Jim!
> If this is like looking at other peoples babies then I'm happy to look!
> 
> I have just put my tractor away back into the trailer.
> ...


Well there is always the shotgun 



Woodsmith said:


> Anyway, your photos and video cheered me and put that grin right back on my face.
> 
> I found this on Ebay.
> http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=110582029443&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT
> ...


Price is attractive, but I cant tell to much from the two pictures so some questions for the seller.

Case material;
Aluminium BAD
Cast Iron GOOD

Wheel size;
12 inch or 16 inch GOOD
8 or 10 inch BAD

Wheel to axle mounting
Wheel keyed to the shaft BAD
Wheel bolted to the flange GOOD

Axle and flange type
Stright shaft and key with cast pot metal flange snap ringe ot bolt/washer retention BAD
Taper shaft w/key or spline and steel flange OK
One piece or welded shaft and flange GOOD

Number of wheel bolts/nuts
3 bots/nuts BAD
4 bots/nuts OK
5 bolts/nuts GOOD

Gears
Forward reverse only BAD
3 or 4 speed with reverse GOOD
3 or 4 speed with low range in one case VERY GOOD
with an equipment lift EVEN BETTER

Not saying you couldn't build a usable light duty transaxle for your tractor from a unit that had all of the bads above. I know I could and I'm sure you could. I just wouldn't trust it to any heavy work and for sure would not pull with it.

I think it is a Peerless 4 speed transaxle not a bad overall piece, just not real heavy duty.

Keep looking, you'll find what you need.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

Jimdear2 said:


> Well there is always the shotgun


Well, I am happy about our gun laws here so won't go that far but I am pretty good with a bow and arrow!





Jimdear2 said:


> Case material;
> Aluminium BAD
> Cast Iron GOOD
> 
> ...


From googling the donor mower it looks like it hits all of the 'bads' above.
The other option is still to build an axle from the Land Rover parts I have. I can get a 4.7:1 diff and a big reduction on the chain drive. The existing 3.5:1 won't quite make it enough but I can work on that too.
The Wheel horse breaker doesn't have anything suitable at the moment but I will keep watching.


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## Jimdear2 (Oct 12, 2008)

Woodsmith said:


> The Wheel horse breaker doesn't have anything suitable at the moment but I will keep watching.


Sears Suburban
Simplicity
Bolens
Cub Cadet
Case
White

Don't miss out on the walk behinds. There were many that had 2 and 3 speed with reverse transmissions, had 10 horse or better engines and could pull a small two bottom plow. Many had good sized bolt on wheels. Nice thing is there are a lot of them just laying around with dead engines in the back yard shed (at least over here). Ask around you might get lucky.

Jim


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## Jimdear2 (Oct 12, 2008)

Well we put the tractors up last fall and went on to other things.

Now we are back at the tractors getting them ready forr this years competitions.

Been a busy winter. We built a P&S controller, Darin installed larger batteries in his cub, I'm going to only go up to 72 volts in mine (up from 48). I've sacrifice my P&S to the BIG 13 until Darin's 1000 amp is finished.

The big news of course is the new battery we worked on all winter. Buying designing testing and assembling. See the thread 
http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showthread.php/review-headway-battery-big-13-tractor-53522.html
in the battery sub forum. We cover all the horse pucky involved in getting something built to do what we want.

A quick synopsis, we have 150 headway 38120p cells in a 3P/50S layout that can be expanded to 4P/50S by just inserting the cells into the existing battery framework.

In the 3P format, at the rated 25C, that's 600 amps available and 800 amps in the 4C version. If we can keep the voltage from sagging below 130v (from 170v) that's 78 kW (102 HP) in the 3P/50S version, about the same as comparable ICE tractors but we have 2 or 3 times the torque. With the 4P/50S it should be Kitty, bar the door.

We tested the cells and they will maintain this output for over 30 seconds, and hook only lasts about 15 seconds in this class.

The battery fits under the seat and weighs just over 100 lbs. Including the charging and monitoring system. That system is another unique story covered in the battery sub forum.

At this point we have stripped out all of the 72 volt stuff we used last fall for a tryout and done a bit of clean up. We've secured the battery to the frame. Made up the seat support structure and positioned the seat.

With the seat in place we were able to position the 800 amp Circuit Breaker/Disconnect. I have the chain guard off for rework and a new tensioner. You can see the approximate position of the controller, contactors and other stuff in the first photo. I have a 10 x 18 inch heat sink that al that will be mounted on and the heat sink will be supported on struts above the motor. We are trying to keep the cable runs as short as possible

We tried to make our own battery cover (bending polycarbonate is not as easy as You Tube videos make it out to be) and are now having one made up.

The plan right now is to get everything into place, get all the welding and drilling done then weld up a roll cage. when all that is done it's disassemble, paint then reassemble.


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## Jimdear2 (Oct 12, 2008)

Well a little more progress to report. Darin and I spent the afternoon today on the tractor, installing sub assemblies we had previously built up.

We didn't get as much done as we wanted, I had a bit of a health downturn and spent 4 days in bed. Darin had a garage sale scheduled and some family stuff as well.

I did get all of the lexan panels cut for the circuit breaker/disconnect enclosure. I spent a better part of 3 hours today final fitting and gluing up the enclosure, It was my first attempt and although I have a few glue spots to polish out and a couple of rough edges to file off It looks pretty good. The breaker handle is accessible from outside the enclosure. 

I also picked up the new battery cover from the plastics place, cheap at twice the price. Looks great. The old deformed cover will be salvaged to supply the lexan panels to cover the top of the heat sink with the controller, contactors and reversing contactor.

We finished up the seat frames and got the seat positioned to clear the circuit breaker enclosure.

I also managed to get a good start on the LVC relay panel that will shut down the main contactors if the voltage in any one of the cell stacks goes below 2.300 volts. Seven relays are connected, one each, to the seven cell log's alarm connetion. Then there is one relay that will latch itself open if any one of the cell log LVC relays is tripped. Since the main contactor circuit is run through the NC contacts of the main relay, when it is tripped and latches open, the tractor stops. This is the same circuit the the breakaway tether is included.

I'm going to add a 0 to 200 volt digital voltmeter to the cell log array so we can see the total pack voltage during charging without turning on the systems. this voltmeter will read and be powered through the scsi cable so when the plug is disconnected there will be no drain from either the cell logs or the voltmeter. Otherwise it is always available to give total pack voltage.

If I can get the cell log pack and the mounts for the heat sink done before the Wednesday evening get together we might be able to wire the thing.

If not, well with Mothers Day next weekend and the parking lot show at the Edison plant the following weekend. There, is also the need to get the Cub Cadets ready for next season. We might not be able to get back to it until late May. 

Actually, once all of the sub assemblies are done, mounting/fitting them and then tear down and paint is just about two days of work.

Darin ran a voltage check through the battery stacks now that the battery has sat for a week since we last had the charger on it. We were both flabbergasted to find all 50 buddy packs matching within two thousands of a volt, that's right, 0.002volts

Anyway a few pictures of where we are at.


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## Jimdear2 (Oct 12, 2008)

Well we finally got most of the bugs sorted and have had a couple of good runs. we still need to get the forth layer of batteries and find/build a 1000+ amp controller. It's not painted or pretty yet, that will come this winter along with the last 25% of the battery and replacing the 500 amp controller with a 1000+ amp controller.

I've attached a video of the last pull we attended, the Armada Fair. We ended up within "shootin" distance of the ICE tractors in the 1300 pound class. It just gets better from here

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QTQTDXgMihs


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Nice, glad to see you're still making progress. How have the Headways been holding up for you?


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

Really nice!

How are you doing on the 1000A controller? Have you found one yet?

Could do with a power side upgrade kit for the P&S controller I guess.


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## Jimdear2 (Oct 12, 2008)

JRP3 said:


> Nice, glad to see you're still making progress. How have the Headways been holding up for you?


JRP3,

The Headway batteries are doing well so far, but we really haven't put much strain on them yet with only a 500 amp controller. prior to the last pull we charged them to 3.5 volts per cell stack, that settled out to about 3.4 volts per cell. After a run that put 511 amps to the motor for around 15 seconds they returned to about 3.318 volts. We are pretty satisfied with power production so far

As a side note we are having trouble with the charging system being very moisture sensitive (lots of rain and humidity) and burning out the DC to DC boards, then draining the batteries. We have had 6 buddy sets of 3 cells, drained to less then a volt. We have been able to return 5 of them to what appears to be 100% and one set seems to be 80+%. 

With all of the trouble we had with the cells leaking and the negitive end turning, I had to buy 25 extra batteries to get 150 good ones. Caution should be used when purchase about mechanical defects. Since we got the battery assembled, we have had little problems with the cells themselves SO FAR.

I would be cautious to recommend the cells due to mechanical problems, power wise they seem good. It appears that others have not had the problems we did. 

We may have a chance to put a bigger load on the batteries next weekend. We are looking to change out the current sensor in the P&S. This is supposd to allow up to 670 amps. We will see how the batteries hold out.

Keep you advised.

Jim


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## Jimdear2 (Oct 12, 2008)

Woodsmith said:


> Really nice!
> 
> How are you doing on the 100A controller? Have you found one yet?
> 
> Could do with a power side upgrade kit for the P&S controller I guess.


Woody,

I'm sure you mean 1000 amp. 

We are talking to one of the P&S 1000 amp board owners that has foud a Zilla. We might look at getting that board.

We are gong to try a new current sensor in the Cougar controller, it's supposed to allow up to 670 amps.

The run in the video only pushed the motor to 2200 rpm, so once we get more amps we will see about regearing to get the rpm closer to 3000.

FUN fun fun.

Jim


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