# How Good is CanEv Kits? Recommendations on Slowly Accruing Parts and Converting S10



## theElmofPadru (Oct 21, 2015)

http://www.canev.com/kits.php

The s10 kit showed here on the CanEv site appears to be somewhat good. Apparently there is an Instruction Guide that comes with the Ev kit as to how to install the kit in an s10, and of course the s10 kit is specifically designed for the s10 truck. This should simplify things a bit I am assuming. I just wanted to know what you guys think about these products after looking at them, and what recommendations you have in regards to converting an s10 truck into an Ev. I want to take the slow approach, slowly accumulating parts over time and making the battery packs. By removing the truck's old engine, it also gives a lot of opportunity for rust protection and underbelly protection of the vehicle. Weight is a concern there however.


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## madderscience (Jun 28, 2008)

Canev has been around a relatively long time for this business and so far as I know they have a good reputation. I haven't bought anything from them myself however.

Taking your time is fine, but one thing you do not want to have on hand any longer than necessary are the batteries. buy those late in the game. Reasons:

They need to be kept charged
They need to be protected (debris, children, moisture, etc)
They are are getting cheaper and better over time.
Their resale value is low, if your plans change.
You want as much warrantee as possbile on the batteries when the car is driving (assumiing warantee available of course)

Plan your build with the largest battery boxes you can fit that don't cause compromises elsewhere and which will be known to fit a configuration of cells that will meet your range and performance requirements. Make physical mockups if you need to, but buy the actual cells last.

As for weight, presuming you are planning a lithium pack, the ending weight of the truck probably won't be more than 10-15% higher than its current curb weight unless you shoot for a very large battery pack.

Good luck.


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## PThompson509 (Jul 9, 2009)

I've bought parts from CanEV, and they are good. They have really good customer support, and will talk to just about anybody (including me!).


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## Moltenmetal (Mar 20, 2014)

Another vote for CanEV- Randy is a great guy and very helpful. Everything he sold me works, and pretty much all the advice he gave me was good too. Very helpful for a beginner. His transmission adapter plate and hub were pricey, but they fit perfectly and the whole process of mounting the motor to the transmission took perhaps 1/2 hour from start to finish- the time savings and reliability of that approach has to be worth something to you- it certainly was to me! After completing my conversion and learning a lot more here, there were comparatively few regrets or things I would have done differently with parts from other suppliers if I had to do it again.

All except for one thing: the cells themselves. He sells Sinopoly prismatic cells. In my opinion, there's no way it makes economic sense to buy prismatic LiFePO4 cells any more, when you can get your hands on Volt or Leaf packs out of wrecked cars for half the money or less. If you live somewhere that there aren't Leaf or Volt packs to be had, that's a different matter- but if you're in North America, they can be found easily enough. The prismatic cells are easy to work with, and work well in a DIY application (the LiFePO4 chemistry is pretty forgiving relative to some of the OEM chemistries), but these cells are prohibitively expensive for DIY conversions.


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## theElmofPadru (Oct 21, 2015)

That is such great advice Molt! Very exciting news. I was thinking about making my own battery packs, but that idea sounds way better! So the prices are fair and the parts are of good quality, however the engine mounts are a bit pricey. Would it be more cost effective to wait and find an electric motor for cheaper and try to rig a different mount? Would the savings be worth the extra painful fabrication? Could I get an electric motor cheaper somewhere else, or a bigger motor for roughly the same price? How risky is buying a used electric motor? I used similar electric motors for lifting silos in the past, and some of those big electric motors (same style as ev car) where over 30 years old with constant operation their whole lives.


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## Moltenmetal (Mar 20, 2014)

AC induction motors used on mains wired applications are usually too high voltage to run off a typical EV battery pack without rewinding.

Conventional variable frequency drives used for mains powered applications have been used successfully by some but they're quite a big project and not something a novice should undertake.

DC forklift motors are plentiful and can be cheap when bought used, and need only small modifications (brush advancement) to use with a DC motor controller off a battery pack. But you would have to make your own adapter plate and hub. Not easy to do well and to get reliable alignment, but many have done so.

Using Volt or Leaf packs isn't as dead easy as using the prismatic LFP cells, but it is easy enough and good help can be found here.

Read the wiki and many build threads here and you will learn. Learn well before spending any money. A recurring theme in builds here is people cheaping out and then spending more money to replace unsatisfactory stuff. Do your research first, as this is too expensive to be buying anything twice!


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## theElmofPadru (Oct 21, 2015)

Ok Molt, I will read lots before hand. It's sounding like I should just get their engine and mounts for learning and just pay the little extra to make it easier and reduce the risk of buying parts multiple times. I will be researching the batteries and the info on this board. I want to get a detailed game plan ready for next summer, and that's when I will start this project. If it goes well, I can research other more complex methods of procuring engines and installing them, which I will use to educate others with.


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## theElmofPadru (Oct 21, 2015)

Ok, so the first step is finding the right truck to begin the project with. Astoundingly the s10 is a great truck for finding outrageously good deals, they're all over the place for really cheap. With a little patience you can get one for next to nothing. Model preference can decrease the like hood of finding an incredible deal however. Obviously the truck needs to be 2 wheel drive with a manual transmission to work with the CanEV kit. For performance and efficiency because of weight, the 2 door model would be the best choice, however 2 doors is really impractical, especially with a shifter, no one can sit in the middle with the shifter there. Now the 4 door model is way too heavy and the 2 wheel drive models are rare, which will make the like hood of getting a fantastic deal greatly reduced. Also one would have to do an 18 hour transmission swap to put a manual transmission in it, because there is no 4 door models with manual transmission to my knowledge. You could have a really nice transmission that way however, but it's extra cost and way too much hassle. That leaves me with the extended cab, kind of the perfect middle ground. Would it be too heavy? A regular 2 door s10 weighs 4,083, the extended cab weighs 4,200 pounds and the 4 door weighs 4,900 pounds. Might be wrong with my estimates but that's what my research shows, happy to be corrected. I was recommended to add a chevy volt battery pack found from a damaged vehicle at a salvage yard or something, and from what I seen, most others who do this use two packs from two separate volts. One pack weighs a whopping 435 pounds. Two battery packs come in at an outstanding 870 pounds. So knowing that I will be using the 9' DC motor that comes with the CanEV kit, how much performance and efficiency would you guys estimate a converted 2 door s10 with 870 pounds with batteries would be, an extended cab and a 4 door. Top speed, acceleration, battery waste due to weight and other related stats one could think of.


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## piotrsko (Dec 9, 2007)

You are kind of overthinking this.

You can use the slushbox tranny with the slush box flywheel. Depending on Model year, you may have to buy a computer shifter. 4wd or 2 wd doesn't matter, $200 kit to have the front axle disengage. 

Im sucessfully running on 1 Volt pack for about 40 miles range and I have monster freeway hill to deal with. You can loose about 100- 150 pounds by getting rid of the volt battery mounting plate you dont really need.

Yes the s-10 is a heavy beast, 4wd usually has a 5 speed manual. But the stock V6 is only putting out about 80hp by this time, well within the capabilities of the warp.

There have been people here that put s-10s on a diet to race sucessfully. Do the research.

Good luck


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## Caps18 (Jun 8, 2008)

I am converting an S-10, and I used a CanEV adapter plate that appears to fit just fine. There was a gap on the bottom because the shape was a little different, but it wasn't hard to cut out a small piece of aluminum to cover it up.

Pick an S-10 you don't need to restore and that isn't a rust bucket. Fixing my truck up and body repairs/paint have taken way too long.


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## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

Ditto what others have said:

-Buy the best truck you can, paint, interior and suspension work is expensive and time wasting. Too many EV conversions have been stalled by too much hand work to restore.

-The S10 is a fine platform for conversion. A manual steering box is available.

-The left rear shock absorber can be moved to in front of the axle and opens up the rear space a LOT.










-Two boxes will fit in front of the axle. Right and left sides.

- Pivot the bed at the rear and make a tilt bed. It makes battery checking and servicing a breeze. A front latch and two gas shocks are needed also.

- The 4L60 transmission can be used if you get an Opti-shift controller. Then the shift points and everything is adjustable. But it is expensive.

-Ivanbennett.com is doing an S10. They have pics and written how-to's on the tilt bed feature.







This is simple if you see how it is done first.

Miz


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## Caps18 (Jun 8, 2008)

mizlplix said:


> -The S10 is a fine platform for conversion. A manual steering box is available.


Yes, I didn't realize that the power steering pump wouldn't easily work in the S-10.

Now, there are some more options out there I think, but the manual box seems to fit just fine and I don't think it will be a problem driving it. 



If you have a few people that can help remove the bed, that is easier then installing a lifting kit.


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## Ivansgarage (Sep 3, 2011)

The tilt bed is pretty easy a few hours work, there is lots of picks
on my website,

Allso easy to change steering box, bolts right in, no mods needed.

http://ivanbennett.com

Ivan


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## theguyed (Dec 4, 2010)

i have parts from a uselectricar s10


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## theElmofPadru (Oct 21, 2015)

Thank you so much guys for the detailed messages, that shock absorber tip is golden! I agree 100%, good body is king! Cutting the work load is of the up most importance because the work load is huge even doing it the most efficient possible way and taking all the time saving strategies possible. That's one other reason a 4 door would not be a good choice, but I do really want an Extended Cab for the other seats, however the extra weight of more passengers must weigh down the vehicle pretty good, probably loose some range, acceleration and top speed. I really like the tip about reducing the Volt's battery weight and about how to place the two battery packs in the back. I have looked at many S10 conversions and almost always they have the lifting box like that, sometimes however people make a diamond plate toolbox and put the batteries in that. You loose a lot of box space that way however. I imagine if one used both methods, having it under the box and in a diamond plate toolbox, it may make lifting the box a little more cumbersome and it would most likely need some extra supports. Now if the s10 with the warp 9 and a single volt battery goes 40 miles on a charge(volt battery has 16.5 KW), than how far would it go with two volt batteries? It obviously can't go 80 miles because of weight, but it certainly would go further, just the overall efficiency would be less. Now if one where to put a 13' dc motor in the s10 with two volt batteries, what would be the performance difference be? (ex: acceleration, speed and range).


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## Moltenmetal (Mar 20, 2014)

Statements of range are a tricky business. You really need to state both the range and the depth of discharge at that range for it to be meaningful.

If the truck "goes 40 miles" on a 16.5 kWh pack, that's likely to nearly 0% state of charge, or 100% depth of discharge. You can't do that too often without killing the pack, eventually, even if you bottom balance it really well. A safer limit would be to take the pack no lower than about 30% SOC in normal driving, leaving the remaining 10-20% that you can get out of there for a rainy day when something goes wrong. 

It would be very surprising if the truck is achieving under 300 Wh/mile unless it is almost never highway driven- especially with a DC conversion without regen. 

16000 Wh/40 miles = 400 Wh/mile, which is in my mind believable for an S10 in mixed driving. The Wh/mile should be roughly the total weight of the vehicle (in pounds) divided by ten, probably plus a bit because of the poor aerodynamics of the pickup truck shape. 

An extra Volt pack plus box, cables etc. will add about 400-500 lbs, with the weight adding roughly another 50 Wh/mile of consumption. So adding a pack will almost, but not quite, double your range.


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## theElmofPadru (Oct 21, 2015)

Thanks a lot Molt, that's a very detailed answer. Two packs is the way to go than for sure, I did read that overcharging and over draining the battery can greatly accelerate the speed at which the battery looses charge. That seems like the biggest reason to get two, with the Volt, it only ever drains it to about 16% to 10% of full range of the battery and apparently has overcharge precautions as well to keep the battery lasting longer. Any overcharging precautions that I should take? Now the kit on the site shows it is for roughly 6,500 bucks, however that does not include things like the power steering pump etc. or my battery costs. I have already assumed that the actual cost will be about 12,000 and want to keep it under that as best I can, but my max limit is 15,000. Is that reasonable? How much cost would you guys estimate? Now I love the s10, but it is heavier than other trucks in its class. The Ranger is only 3,028 pounds, basically 1,000 pounds lighter, that's a huge difference. The Ranger also has a kit, would you guys say the Ranger is a better choice than the s10? The other trucks in the class are mainly all lighter, but don't have any customized kits, the Tacoma is 3,980 pounds and the Frontier is 3,708. The s10 seems to be the heaviest. Is there winning qualities the s10 has that makes it a good choice comparability to other trucks in its class? What is the rough performance of the 9' compared to the 11' and the 13'? What's the top speed, acceleration, pulling power and range(assuming two volt batteries, 33kw/h). Is the Warp 9' direct transmission motor better because you remove the flywheel etc or is it better just to keep it simple with the kit? I was thinking in theory the direct drive is better, but the kit would be simpler and cheaper, is that assumption wrong? What's the performance of the 9' direct Warp motor and the 11' direct Warp motor? Do they out perform the regular Warp motors? Which motor would give the overall best speed, acceleration and top speed and which would offer the best economy? (battery charge etc)


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## Moltenmetal (Mar 20, 2014)

A BMS will give you protection against both over discharge and overcharging individual cells. Save money on the charger- a complex charger curve is not required. You can charge at constant current and just stop when the first cell reaches its high voltage cutoff- that's how every charge of my pack terminates.

I believe that Dimitri offers miniBMS boards which will be set properly for Volt cell chemistry, but am not sure. Others have kludged a bunch of cheap Celllog8s together to make a very cheap BMS without the shunt charging feature- a feature I don't think is really necessary anyway and which comes with some risk too.

I'd also suggest a JLD instead of the much more expensive TBS E Expert amp hour gauge. The TBS gauge is great and works well but the JLD is 1/4 the money.

Doing mine again, I'd also ditch the DC/DC converter for a 12V battery you charge separately- again, cheaper than a good DC/DC that is reliable, plus you get 100% guaranteed isolation between your 12V and high voltage systems.

I'd consider spending the savings going AC instead of DC. You will have less torque, but also (modestly) more efficiency due to regen and less maintenance. Ask Randy at CanEV if he has satisfied owners of AC76 S10 conversions. Unless you're going with a forklift motor and/ or a kit controller, the savings going DC vs AC are modest at best if you buy good stuff.


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## theElmofPadru (Oct 21, 2015)

Less maintenance is a big one. I can't seem to find any AC kits or part combinations that will be under 18,000. AC does seem really expensive, any site recommendations? If not a kit, is there a parts shopping cart you could put together for me? Just a listing as to what I should buy, and where I should buy it? You have been great, thanks so much.


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## Moltenmetal (Mar 20, 2014)

CanEV charges $5500 for a kit with a Warp 9 DC motor and a Zilla 1K controller and $6500 for a kit with an AC50 and a Curtis controller. $1000 on $5500 isn't much of a premium in my mind. Those are $CDN and we're currently around $0.76 USD. I would definitely pay $760 USD premium to buy AC over DC- it's a no brainer in my view. DC can be a lot cheaper than this, but only if you're willing and able to do a lot of work for yourself. The mounting plates, hubs, DC/DC, BMS etc. are all the same cost for either option.

As far as parts list is concerned, I'm afraid you're on your own to put that together or you can work with Randy. I've given you some advice about what parts I would buy differently from what Randy offered me or from what I bought on my own to save a few bucks, but the gear he offers works well and he provides a full schematic to wire it together if that matters to you. Personally I could have wired the car entirely from the Curtis schematics- they're very clear and detailed.


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## theElmofPadru (Oct 21, 2015)

Great advice, ya you're right, the kit price difference is not that much and AC is much more reliable and energy efficient. I really appreciate the advice. I might go with the Ford Ranger with the AC. This has all been really good advice.


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## theElmofPadru (Oct 21, 2015)

How would you compare an EV using one AC motor, and one using two? What would the best way to use two be if you where to use 2 motors? It seems very common to make EV's with doubled up the motors, just curious.


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## Moltenmetal (Mar 20, 2014)

Dual motors cost twice as much- two motors, two controllers- plus the device to connect them together mechanically. They're intended for performance applications. And you need the battery current capacity to handle twice the current.


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## Caps18 (Jun 8, 2008)

Two motors also have to fit. I only have 10" or so between the end of my AC-75 motor and the front of the engine compartment.


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