# Got the cash, what do I buy?



## F16bmathis (Jun 6, 2008)

My LA's are half dead (charged them to 180 degree F four times) so its time to invest in some real batteries. But of all the looking I do, I can't find a good Lithium set at 160-200 AH or even a good BMS that wont cost my first born. I like her, I think she's a keeper!

I need the BMS cause even though it looks really cool to come out in the morning and see your batteries looking like several mini volcanoes, it costs way too much to keep doing, though I did it four times! Ya, just gotta set the voltage down on the charger just a little, oh a little more, more, darn!

So where can I get some thundersky's or something and a good BMS? Someone has the answer! And who can afford a $40,000 Leaf or Volt? I'll do my part by paying for the $7500 rebate through my taxes, so those rich people who don't pay as much tax can afford one won't have to go without caviar tonight!


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## rillip3 (Jun 19, 2009)

F16bmathis said:


> My LA's are half dead (charged them to 180 degree F four times) so its time to invest in some real batteries. But of all the looking I do, I can't find a good Lithium set at 160-200 AH or even a good BMS that wont cost my first born. I like her, I think she's a keeper!
> 
> I need the BMS cause even though it looks really cool to come out in the morning and see your batteries looking like several mini volcanoes, it costs way too much to keep doing, though I did it four times! Ya, just gotta set the voltage down on the charger just a little, oh a little more, more, darn!
> 
> So where can I get some thundersky's or something and a good BMS? Someone has the answer! And who can afford a $40,000 Leaf or Volt? I'll do my part by paying for the $7500 rebate through my taxes, so those rich people who don't pay as much tax can afford one won't have to go without caviar tonight!


I can't speak to the batteries, I'm not using Li. But the Leaf is much cheaper, MSRP is only $26,850. I can't afford a new car, period, but if I could, I could probably afford a Leaf. Best of luck with the lithiums. If Lead Acid is getting you the range you want, you might want to get some new PbA and just spend a little extra on a smarter charger that won't over-charge.


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## F16bmathis (Jun 6, 2008)

I just checked all the cells for specific gravity and found I have two completely dead batteries and a few more questionable. I'm ordering two more batteries today and see if I can get better than 7 miles. I used to get 40.

I'm looking at the Leaf again. Thought it had gone up in price as the Volt did. I have one of the first reservations for the Leaf.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

The Mini BMS is about $12 per cell plus $30 for the head unit, about as cheap as you're going to find.


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## JRoque (Mar 9, 2010)

Hi. The Nissan Leaf MSRP is $32,780. After taxpayers fork out $7,500 in the form of a "federal tax credit", the cost is $25,280. States like CA and GA have additional incentives beyond that, again, at the expense of tax monies.

So whereas product market research in the past was funded by the companies that would ultimately profit from the product, these days we, as taxpayers, get to pay that bill. In Nissan's case, we pay $7,500 per car so poor Nissan can afford to buy the battery pack. In CA, a state that's utterly broke, Nissan gets $12,500 which is directly added to that state's credit balance. Remember, CA has no money so they're living out of their credit line which means you also need to add interest rate to that balance.

But getting back to topic, I hear you about the Lithium cell prices. I'm also looking to buy a Li cell pack and everywhere I look it's around $10,000 for a ~24kW pack. I read somewhere that a few large battery companies are about to enter the Lithium market and prices are expected to fall around 19%... one can only hope.

JR


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Federal subsidies cost us each about .54 cents for every 10,000 Leafs. Oh the horror


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## F16bmathis (Jun 6, 2008)

I'm just not sure what to do... Buy a few more LA's that won't have the range I need in winter, buy Lithium's now, or later, or buy a Leaf when available. The dealer called yesterday and left a message saying something has changed. Expected delivery dates?

Guess I'll get at least two new LA's to replace the two completely dead batteries I have and at least be able to use the truck for shorter distances.

Anyone know of a BMS for 6V LA's?


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## F16bmathis (Jun 6, 2008)

JRP3 said:


> Federal subsidies cost us each about .54 cents for every 10,000 Leafs. Oh the horror


Ya .54 cents is a rediculous small amount to pay considering if you take the population and divide it by the deficit we owe $42,953.064 each for every legal man woman and child in the US. So my family of three owes almost $130,000. Whats another .54 cents?


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## rillip3 (Jun 19, 2009)

F16bmathis said:


> I'm just not sure what to do... Buy a few more LA's that won't have the range I need in winter, buy Lithium's now, or later, or buy a Leaf when available. The dealer called yesterday and left a message saying something has changed. Expected delivery dates?
> 
> Guess I'll get at least two new LA's to replace the two completely dead batteries I have and at least be able to use the truck for shorter distances.
> 
> Anyone know of a BMS for 6V LA's?


They already have tentative release dates, and it's based on location. Washington, Oregon, California, Arizona, and Tennesee are looking at this December, about ten other states in March I think, then like 15 more in the summer, then a general release sometime in fall 2011, IIRC. 

As for the MSRP, I'm irritated to find that JRouge is correct. I looked up the MSRP and reported the number I found, but upon further review, the MSRP really is 32+, and they listed the tax incentivized number as the MSRP on the site I pulled from. Putting aside the appropriateness of the subsidy, I find it irritating to be misled like that. At least it's still cheaper than the Volt, and for what it is, 32 isn't a bad price. Compare to the Prius, for example. It sure knocks me (even more) out of the market but it's not too unreasonable.


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## F16bmathis (Jun 6, 2008)

Just finished talking to my dealer. He said I won't be able to get one till the end of 2011. Makes me wonder why I paid the $100 deposit to get in line if I can't buy one based on where I live.

On the other hand, any bugs should / might be worked out!


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## vpoppv (Jul 27, 2009)

Don't hold your breath on the Leaf- I'm not sure why everyone believes in them so completely-but the dates keep being pushed back. I spent the $100 too, but I call it a "savings account" because I'm not a big believer that I will see this car anytime soon. I know I'm the ultimate cheapskate and hardly anyone sees the world the way I do, and even less people care about my opinion, but here's what I would do in your shoes. First, I'd get rid of that charger because it sounds like it's costing you a fortune to use it. Next, I'd go to a golf course and talk to a couple people about getting some used batteries for next to nothing. Then I'd connect up a bunch of 12v chargers to 2 batteries at a time to try to get them balanced properly. It seems like until you get your charger thing situated, you'll be spending too much money on new batteries that might get fried. Once you have a decent pack, use the money you saved on batteries (by getting used ones) to buy a programmable charger that will be able to do lithium as well as lead/acid for when you get to that point.....


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

vpoppv said:


> Don't hold your breath on the Leaf- I'm not sure why everyone believes in them so completely-but the dates keep being pushed back.


Seems as if moving the release date for a brand new product is hardly unusual, or to be unexpected. You really think Nissan is not going to release the car after all this?


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## vpoppv (Jul 27, 2009)

JRP3 said:


> Seems as if moving the release date for a brand new product is hardly unusual, or to be unexpected. You really think Nissan is not going to release the car after all this?


Like I said, I hope I'm wrong since I put in my $100, but since you asked: Judging by the recent fiasco with the EV1, Rav4EV, etc, as well as the limited release of the MiniEV that BMW decided to drop (whatever happened to the ones that were leased out??), I think that a few lucky ordinary citizens in the first release states will get them, but us poor schmucks in the other states will be told that there were too many problems with it and you will have to be someone like Mel Gibson or Arnold Schwazenegger to get one. I really hope I am dead wrong.....


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## Sun Motors (Aug 10, 2010)

Go Lithium if you can find a deal. I looked and looked and waited and finally EV Components delivered in January, and I'm happy with the conversion, but sorry about EVC. Forty-two TS 160aH batteries propel the 2400lb 914 down the road at 55mph pulling 0.5C with an easy range of 60+ miles and as-yet unfathomed top speed of 80+ mph. The pack was $8k delivered total and I get a 10% tax credit on the conversion costs.

I am still #86 on the Aptera list, that was to deliver an 800lb belt-driven ev for around $26k in Fall of 2008, but now am thinking it weighs and costs too much.

My LA 20 mile range ev didn't make my 50 mile commute so I converted.


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## dtbaker (Jan 5, 2008)

Sun Motors said:


> Go Lithium if you can find a deal. I looked and looked and waited and finally EV Components delivered in January,


sounds like you got delivered just before EVC fell apart under James. Beware current vendor 'LithiumDepot' as that is James as well. Former partner Dave Kois is putting deals together, and EVolveElectrics.com seems to be on the straight and narrow, delivering goods, and avoided the whole EVC fiasco.


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## F16bmathis (Jun 6, 2008)

Doesn't matter, I've allready got an Electric Vehicle, built way cheaper than the Leaf, and a Prius bought way cheaper than a Volt. So I killed a few batteries, and my Prius only gets 53 MPG. SBS in Milwaukee has replaced my 6 bad batteries and I found a way to force the Prius's engine to shut off to increase MPG even more. I'll buy a used Leaf or Volt a few years down the road if they don't crush them all!


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