# Why I'm Always Broke: 1974 Karmann Ghia Convertible (...to electric)



## Moltenmetal (Mar 20, 2014)

Oh, I well know the love of an old car that turns into this kind of project!

Keep us updated and post lots of pics!


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## SirNick (Jun 14, 2015)

Took delivery of the new car yesterday...














It's now waiting on the weekend for some time to clean out the cobwebs, sort through the spare parts in the floorboard, then remove the transplanted Super Beetle engine, assorted EPA paraphernalia, and gas tank.














The interior isn't great...














...so I'll be reconditioning some parts of my old Ghia for re-use.


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## nimblemotors (Oct 1, 2010)

Good plan to 'restart' with a non-rusted car. Always a big fan of the Ghia.
Looks like you got a good one.


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## Studebaker (Jan 22, 2012)

Cool car. Love these. Good plan on the set up. Went for AC50 myself. Keep us updated, with lots of pics.


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## Moltenmetal (Mar 20, 2014)

If my experience with the AC5o in my Spitfire is any indication, you're going to be very satisfied with the result. The two cars will make one gorgeous one and the electric conversion will make your face hurt from grinning- post lots of pics so we can offer support and encouragement- and enjoy your build vicariously!


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## SirNick (Jun 14, 2015)

Thanks for the comments everyone!

I spent a couple weekends pulling out all the old interior stuff, and most of the contents of the front hood. Also, beer was consumed, and maybe some vroom-vroom noises while sitting in the front seat. (May as well send the ICE off with a fond farewell.)

I mentioned previously that I had intended to place a pack of (35x2)x32 under the front hood. After receiving a trial order of pack-building cell ends from here: (eBay) ... it seems I'll have to go with plan B.

The hood area looks like this:










I can fit 35 cells (1/2 a parallel string) from side to side, but there's not quite enough space for 32 series strings (stacked 2x16 high.) Instead, I decided to use this space in the back of the cabin, on the inside of the firewall, and just under where the rear window folds down on warm, sunny days:










I also have a little room under what was previously a nearly useless bench seat, until seatbelt laws forced VW to redesign it into cargo space:










For now, however, I don't plan to put batteries here. I have other ideas...

As it turns out, the rear cargo area is about the right size to place a module of 12 cells high by 6 cells deep, rotated on end with 12 modules from left to right. This module size also works pretty well under the hood, where I can stack 2 rows of 10 modules right over the open area formerly occupied by the gas tank.










In this form, it works out as a module of 72 cells, bringing my pack total to 2,304 cells. This nudges the capacity up slightly, from 199Ah to 205Ah -- just over 24kWh. This is probably just as well for a couple reasons... The pack will be far easier to service as discrete modules; The cells are often shipped in lots of 200, so 2400 would give me a few spares, and maybe even enough extra to build a pack for the 12v system.

I haven't done enough research yet on how to manage a 12v pack. The 12v system is usually float-charged by the DC-to-DC converter, and conversations regarding lithium cells and float charging tend to steer toward fires on airliners -- although there's still some debate there from what I can tell.

One option might be to diode-isolate the pack and DC converter, with the pack voltage intentionally set lower than the converter's output ... but, 4 cells at 3.7v nominal is already 14.8v, so going much higher is probably not healthy for some of the devices using that power bus.

And, of course, there still needs to be a charge controller to keep the pack topped off.

Any ideas?


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## SirNick (Jun 14, 2015)

I have a tough decision to make.

I've become accustomed to the old-skool look of the 1970 dash...












...and so I've briefly considered cosmetic surgery to implant the old large + two small gauge cluster in the 1974 dash.












However, over the last few weeks, the look of the newer gauges has grown on me a little.












The speedo is pretty nice... I actually DO like it better than the 1970 style. On the other hand, I have absolutely no need for a large clock, but all the dummy lights are located in _that_ cylinder.

Granted, it's possible to have a new face made (which would require replacing the plastic lens, since I would no longer need an adjustment shaft.) This would also be a good excuse to replace some of the ICE-centric icons with something better tuned for an electric vehicle.

And thus, the constant battle between classic and modern rages on. I'm always somewhere on the edge of respecting the OG heritage, suffering from an identity crisis, and losing the vintage vibe entirely.

I'm leaning a little towards the new gauges now, since I think they would flow better with my plans for this spot:












... where I will install something like this:











Link: AdaFruit


I've never liked the look of a DIN CD head unit in a Ghia dash, but I think a touchscreen with clean, subtle trim would fit in well. Any non-essential controls can go here, as well as info from the inverter, DC-to-DC converter, BMS, and vehicle control units.

I don't know that I really need to play optical discs in a car anymore, but a file- and Bluetooth-based audio system would be nice. I'm sure I could find a way to integrate a radio receiver as well. (I'm getting old. I like my NPR.)


Finally, I was a little curious to see how the plastic battery clips will react to a minor electrical snafu:











Conclusion: I'm going to die in a fire.


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## samwichse (Jan 28, 2012)

I'm biased, but I love the look of the older speedo. But then it's pretty much the same unit i had in my old 66 bug.

I would say toss the clock and stick something else there, but is it that cool old self-winding type that was also in the type 3? The kludgy one that has a solenoid that winds a clock spring every time it winds down (about 5 minutes) and makes contact... those are too cool.

Sam


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## piotrsko (Dec 9, 2007)

I've taken apart many speedos and clocks. You could leave the face and put what displays behind an appropriate hole in which face you prefer. The facing plate would be .035 plastic, with laser printed symbols. I am partial to the original look when off but digital when running. The ultimate, I suppose, would be a HUD.


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## jwiger (Oct 18, 2014)

What are the diameter of the opening in your new dash? What kind of instrumentation is important to you? I plan on spirited driving in my car, and the BMS can drive a tach as an ammeter. So my dash will have a large speedo and ammeter side by side and typical hot-rodders monster tach (for actual RPMs) on top of the dash. Accessory gauges will be a 12V voltmeter, a temp gauge (controller coolant) and typical fuel gauge (also driven by my BMS).

Some go the simple route, some go the over kill route. 

Depending on the diameter, you could browse summitracing.com for gauge ideas.


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## SirNick (Jun 14, 2015)

I'm not sure about the big clock. The small one is electro-mechanical though. Very neat, but prone to failure. Mine has been stuck at 3 o'clock since I got the car. ;-)

In terms of instrumentation, I really only need a speedo, fuel gauge (SoC), and I would like to have the warning lights. I don't really want the full light show thing on the dash. I'll have all that info on the LCD when I want to check on things or tune something. The rest of the time, I would prefer to keep it minimal.

I'll probably turn the large clock into a tacho, electronically driven, given the large face with nothing better to do with it.

Piotrsko - any recommendations on where to have a new face made? That sounds perfect.


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## piotrsko (Dec 9, 2007)

There was a big tach made but they are rare as can be. My homemade faces were made on a drill press with a flycutting bit. I believe the gauges are a tad bit off from 3.375 diameter, but is has been like 20 years since I was into all things VW.


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## SirNick (Jun 14, 2015)

I checked with North Hollywood Speedometer and they are able to convert a clock to a tach that matches the speedo. Price is not cheap, but reasonable. Think I'll go that route and have one problem solved.

OK, now to finish stripping the car and get those pans fixed...


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## Ampster (Oct 6, 2012)

SirNick said:


> I checked with North Hollywood Speedometer and they are able to convert a clock to a tach that matches the speedo. Price is not cheap, but reasonable. Think I'll go that route and have one problem solved.
> ........


On my VW conversion I was headed in the direction of thinking I needed a tach so I ordered matching GPS speedo and Tach from Speedhut. Now that I have used it for a few years off and on as a grocery getter I found that I don't need the tach because in 2nd gear my RPMs match my speed by a factor of 100 RPM/ per MPH, so if my speed is 30 MPH my RPMs are 3000. I have commented in other threads that I found 2nd gear is all I need and that I wasted a lot of money lightening and balancing the flywheel, buying a Kennedy 3000 lb clutch and performance pressure plate. I half expect some of the diehard clutch advocates to weigh in on this, but before they do let me list the assumptions about my car and how I use it to make it clear that my view is only applicable to my unique circumstances.:
I rarely drive more than 10-15 miles a day, never get over 55 MPH, am nowhere near a freeway and only drive with the top down. I have an AC-35 motor with a curtiss controller and the guage that comes with the Curtiss gives me the ability to rotate through readings of Amps,Volts, RPM, Temp of Motor and Controller. Because it is an AC system I feel there is no risk of the controller failing in a closed position so I don't need a clutch for safety.​
I think you will enjoy the torque of the AC-50. My first EV grin was with this car with the AC-35 but now it seems a little listless. Subsequent to this build I drove a Toyota RAV4 EV which had a detuned Tesla drivetrain, then a Smart ED which has been my daily driver when I need to go further distances. Both those cars are clutchless single speed transmissions running a ratio of 8 or 9 to 1. My VW in second gear with a freeway flyer differential is about 8.5 to 1. I look forward to hearing more about your build.


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## SirNick (Jun 14, 2015)

The foremost point of installing the tach is to fill the #2 large hole in my dash. ;-) I'm not convinced I need one at all, but I can either get it converted (and look at it from time to time) or rework a bunch of metal and stick with a lone speedo.

Or, I suppose, I can keep the clock. But that just seems like a complete waste of a gauge, so I'm not going to do that. 

I thought about using a smaller motor like the AC-35 since the Ghia's original engine isn't exactly powerful. But then, from the graphs, it looked like there wasn't really that much difference in terms of torque. It looked like the difference lies more in the ability to keep going longer at higher load levels, which is something I would want. Correct me if I'm wrong, because I puzzled over this for a little while before coming to this conclusion.

Oh, and my opinion regarding the clutch: EV West has a nice adapter that mounts the engine right up to the existing transmission, so there's a path of least resistance element to it. I do want to drive it on the highway (so 4th might be handy), and might want to take it up hills (so 1st might be handy), and if all this doesn't pan out, I may want to put the gas engine back in some day. For all these reasons, I'm planning to keep the transmission intact. It won't hurt, it could help, and it's easier just to leave it, and so I think I will.


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## SirNick (Jun 14, 2015)

This weekend has been highly productive. First, I've changed the back end view from this:










... to this:










Next step is to get acquainted with the transmission, and then remove it as well.

In the meantime, the interior is almost completely empty. Just a few carpeted bits remain, and the seats -- which so far will not budge, I assume on account of a little rust on the rails. The top is still installed, and will remain there until it's ready to tow to the body shop.

While I still have access to the car, I ordered the Adafruit LCD panel to test-fit and get some ideas for integration:










It looks like it'll fit perfectly, with enough room below for a couple rotary encoder knobs (power / volume on left, and select / enter on the right), plus media ports in the middle (USB female and SD, probably).

I'm thinking of making a face plate that will cover this area of the dash, and flow with the contour in the middle to encompass the knobs and media ports. That way, I don't really even need to cut into the dash. The existing holes will work fine, and allow me to reverse the changes if I ever decide to.

I ordered the matching HDMI adapter board to get the panel functional right out of the box. This will allow me to develop the UI elements virtually before I even begin working on hardware.

The panel uses what appears to be a fairly common 40-pin flat ribbon connector. This has the 8-bit R, G, and B data pins, plus LED backlight anode and cathode, and 4-pin resistive touchscreen outputs all on one cable. Pretty convenient.

Unfortunately, this screen might not cut it for use in a car, with odd viewing angles and sun glare:










This is only with 25mA of backlight current, out of a possible maximum of 150mA, so it should look better when fully powered. But I kind of doubt it'll be good enough. Luckily, that common pinout means I can use this panel for development purposes, and find a better sunlight-readable display for the car.


Removing that engine feels like good progress -- the first milestone on the way to conversion.

After spending a day under the car, I'm absolutely stunned at how healthy the chassis looks. I keep waiting to uncover some massive rot that's eating its way through the car, but I just keep finding clean metal. I'm running out of stones to look under, so I'm cautiously optimistic. Who knows what I'll find when the paint's removed, but so far, this car looks like an incredible bargain.

I couldn't be happier.


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## bwjunkie (Jul 31, 2013)

Do you know how much the 23kwh pack will weigh with mounting hardware? Will you need upgraded coil springs, etc?
I ask because 23kwh strikes me as a large capacity for a two seater low profile car. (I'm guessing, I know nothing about 18650 packs) Also what is your range requirements?

josh


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## karmann eclectric (Mar 26, 2008)

Congrats SirNick! I'm glad to see yet another EV Ghia join the fray. Don't worry too much about overloading the front axle. With an adjustable beam you can dial in the ride height, and handling is improved. I figured my OEM weight distribution at 80 Rear 20 Front, improved to 60/40 on Karmann Eclectric V 1.0, which had 245 lbs of nicads over the front axle and 455 lbs under the rear seat, but hasn't been driven much in the past couple of years while it waited for lithium. That day is finally here! I pulled the 200 nicad cells last night and am replacing them with 60 CALB SE 100 cells. Lotta effort often goes into front battery boxes that sink into the fuel tank hole, but this time I'm inclined to just go flat over that hole. Even the big 100 Ah cells will still fit under the frunk lid, and they'll be nicely arrayed without resorting to multiple elevations. 
Cheers, 
Jay
www.karmanneclectric.blogspot.com


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## SirNick (Jun 14, 2015)

It is a bit large, but my goal is based on wanting to drive out of town and into a nearby valley, and back again, on a charge. We have friends out there, about 40 mi away, so 100 mi range would give me some headroom.

Secondarily, it should be enough that I only need to charge on weekends. At that rate, 500 charge cycles would last long enough that the cell's limiting factor ought to be age or obsolescence before capacity drops below usable.

I'm still playing with module arrangement and may have figured out how to get 30 modules of 80 cells under the hood. The HPEVS system will be OK at 110v, and I should be under the Curtis controller's 130v max even while charging. Or maybe I need to look at 144v controllers. I have some time to mull over my options.

30x80 would weigh about 250lbs., directly over the front suspension. TBH, I don't know if that will require additional support or adjustment. It's on my list of things to research.

It's definitely an improvement over an equivalent LiFePo4 pack, though!


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## SirNick (Jun 14, 2015)

Hey Jay! Just missed your post while I was typing.

I'm hoping to keep weight distribution close to even - something like 200lbs. for the drivetrain in the rear, and 250lbs. front. The transmission will be just forward of rear, and passengers just aft of front. I expect that to work out fairly well.

Same idea here with the fuel tank cavity. I plan to use the tank mounting locations through the bottom of the battery box, where it'll all sit nicely above. No need to dip lower than the sheet metal. The natural slope works out to provide a nearly even height under the hood, and since I'm able to change the ratio of width/height on my modules, I can make good use of the inner dimensions.


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## karmann eclectric (Mar 26, 2008)

Figured as much, Nick, thx. For increased load, re-indexing the torsion bars is a straightforward job and the proper way to adjust the rear suspension height. Coil-over shocks stress the shock towers, and (I'd wager) cause more body flexion, which is extreme to begin with in a KG 'vert. I swapped in Porsche 944 rear torsion bars in order to handle the added weight but still have an appropriate spring rate. I'd also recommend a quality set of truss bars/ Kafer Cup braces in the rear. Mine from Lanner Khan are gorgeous, but required some dicey welding to put in correctly. http://vdubengineering.com/
An adjustable front beam is the right way to re-index the front torsion leaves, and it does fine for mild height adjustments, though lowered spindles are best for putting your nose in the weeds. I looked at an airbag suspension, but they all take up more space and increase mass, electrical loads, cost and complexity, plus I really didn't plan on doing much bouncin' at the red lights. Dusting Mustangs is fun enough. 

Keeping the weight distribution close to stock will be ok, but Ghias are too rear-biased to begin with. I haven't weighed my '65 cabrio, but with that solid steel top frame folded, I'd bet that the rear axles support even more than 80% of the car. My only minor traffic accident in a Ghia was when the front disc brakes locked up on a wet street, and the rear drums didn't have enough oompf to stop in time. Our rear drums require regular adjustment to keep the braking from being too front-biased. I consider this a design flaw, so upgraded the rear brakes to discs during the original build.


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## SirNick (Jun 14, 2015)

Great info, sir. Thank you. I'm not great at mechanics, so this is a can of worms I haven't opened yet. Now I have a place to start, which is a huge help.

I haven't thought much about lowering the Ghia - I like its stance well enough as-is, and clearance is more important to me than being super racey. I don't care much for the slammed look either. But, handling is directly correlated with safety, and I DO want to keep the car in one piece, so I'm interested in learning more about that relationship.

Pretty sure I read through a lot of your blog when I first started researching this (thanks for that, BTW), but I'll go back through it again with an eye on the suspension and brakes. I have thought about converting the rears to discs -- all the better to have one set of parts to deal with, and no adjustments -- but again, I'm in over my head on what, how, etc., and read about it being difficult to get the e-brake working on a disc set-up. Given no engine compression, the e-brake will be critical.


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## karmann eclectric (Mar 26, 2008)

Thx again. I didn't blog the brakes, but setup for rear discs with e-brake was a cinch with a kit like the following (forged brackets are better, and bending the hard lines around a 36mm socket worked fine since I didn't have a tubing bender on hand). 
http://www.jbugs.com/product/22-2870.html

Here's the truss bar (and trailer hitch) installation.

http://karmanneclectric.blogspot.com/2012/04/staying-planted-required-triangulation.html


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## Vhclbldr (Feb 8, 2014)

jwiger said:


> What are the diameter of the opening in your new dash? What kind of instrumentation is important to you? I plan on spirited driving in my car, and the BMS can drive a tach as an ammeter. So my dash will have a large speedo and ammeter side by side and typical hot-rodders monster tach (for actual RPMs) on top of the dash. Accessory gauges will be a 12V voltmeter, a temp gauge (controller coolant) and typical fuel gauge (also driven by my BMS).
> 
> Some go the simple route, some go the over kill route.
> 
> Depending on the diameter, you could browse summitracing.com for gauge ideas.


I like your thinking, J. What configuration of the Zeva BMS are you using? I have yet to select one...


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## SirNick (Jun 14, 2015)

Long time, no update. So here's the latest..



Most of the time spent has been throwing largish sums of money at EV and VW parts vendors.














Shown here:

- HPEVS AC-50 and Curtis controller

- Thunderstruck EV's 3KW TSM-2500 charger

- Thunderstruck's TSM 144V DC-DC converter

- EV West's VW transmission adapter, with Canadian EV coupler

- Fuse, shunt, and J1772 inlet



Firstly, I'm really impressed with Thunderstruck EV. Those guys were great to work with. They helped me save shipping costs by tucking the electronics in with the HPEVS crate, and (best of all) are willing to supply CAN protocol info on the charger for those of us who are in to that sort of thing.



EV West.. ehh, not so impressed. I placed something like four orders with them, and I think only one of those actually showed up with the things I ordered in the box. In the end they took care of it, so all's well that ends well I suppose.



Moving on...



As I said before, this Ghia is remarkably clean. But, one of the few places that is showing signs of 40 years of age: the floor pans. This is unsurprising, as it is one of those things on a Volkswagen that is always a problem. (Oddly, the rockers seem just fine. I'm still a bit skeptical, because that never happens, but so far so good.)



I tried to chase down some thicker replacements from the fellow that used to make those odd green panels, but it seems he never answers the phone or email, and has just about ceased production anyhow. So I went with my distant second choice of the typical Danish parts available at parts outlets online.



Karmann Ghia Parts & Restoration is a great outfit though, and they got these to me quickly and at reasonable cost:














I've also received a new lightened flywheel and a rear disc brake conversion kit.



I'm just about recovered (financially) from the parts binge, so the next step is to take the chassis down to a body shop and have it stripped to bare metal. I'll have the hidden areas coated with sealer to prevent rust - hopefully for the life of the car. The chassis will get a fresh coat of convertible sports car red, with a hint of metallic flake in it. It ought to be stunning all waxed up on a sunny summer day.



I'm also planning to cut the tunnel open while the body's off. This will be the perfect time to reinforce all the mounting points inside that tend to break, and pull out the fuel lines and other stuff I won't need. The main HV cabling will go in, bound together to keep inductance low, and maybe in a conduit to avoid mingling with LV stuff. I'll also add a hearty 12V power cable and a new wire harness to the rear. More on that in the next post...


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## SirNick (Jun 14, 2015)

My plans for the battery pack have morphed a few times over the last year, but I think I've settled on (for now..) a pack of 32 modules, 10x8 cells apiece. 232AH per module, 117V nominal, roughly 27kWH at max charge.

This puts me right at the limit of the Curtis controller when fully charged (~130V in "range mode"), and well within its comfort zone for less aggressive everyday charges (~120V).

I've started collecting cells in small quantities for testing.










Here are 10 of the modules, stacked to give me a tangible sense of the size. They fit wonderfully under the hood at 6.5" on the short size, 8" on the long side, and about 27" top to bottom, with a little allowance for collector plates on either side of the module.

I plan to build some test rigs over the winter to torture these particular cells in a myriad of ways. This will give me real-world data on which to base my expectations for life cycle, and penalties for fast-charging, deep cycling, and full charges.

I straddle the fence a little on the BMS debate. I do believe that, in general, the cells are happiest if you balance them and then leave them alone. But, the failure modes are rather spectacular if there is some exceptional force to bring them out of balance. Whether this is self-imposed or due to cell failure doesn't matter. The risk of not knowing about a fault is too high for my taste.

So, I will be using a very minimal BMS to keep tabs on cell health. At the very minimum, it will warn when something looks awry, and prevent charging or discharging until it can be dealt with. All I'm interested in is over-voltage, over-temp, and too much variation between modules.

I have also tried to learn from the shortcomings of existing systems, and so plan to build per-module blocks that are connected by a common 12V power bus plus CAN. (This will be a recurring theme -- more on that in a minute.) The modules will have an isolated DC-to-DC power supply, and isolated CAN transceiver. This eliminates any HV cabling (other than the main supply cable), and prevents any load on the independent cell modules aside from the high-impedance ADC inputs to measure voltage.

I am toying with the idea of incorporating a low-current shunt capable of slowly balancing the cells for the purposes of pack maintenance or to re-balance them every .. I dunno, four years .. after the ADCs have disturbed them by a few millivolts. I haven't quite decided whether to do this, not do this, or do it in a physically defeatable way. I expect I'll use it twice, maybe three times, ever. And so, is it worth the risk of dealing with semiconductor failure for something that adds next to no value? Hmm.. remains to be seen.


I am putting a lot of emphasis on CAN, as I believe it will be vastly preferable to a thick harness of physically toggled 12V wires going everywhere. I plan to run the majority of the car's lighting and auxiliary electronics from a three-wire bus -- 12V power and CAN. This means I really only need an intelligent fuse box on each end of the car, and a hefty 12V power cable between them. Definitely simpler to maintain than the rats nest behind the dash that VW owners are familiar with.

To control all of this, I am working on a design to feed the LCD touch-screen display and provide a pair of CAN bus transceivers. They will be split into high and low priority devices, with the high priority bus servicing only the devices required to move the car. This should help ensure survivability should a circuit fail and render the shared bus inoperable.










The main IC in the lower right is a rather sophisticated ARM Cortex micro-controller with built-in LCD driver. The one in the middle is a nifty LCD controller that can switch between an external input (the ARM) and video inputs, for a back-up camera or AV in.

Back-up camera in a Ghia? Because I can. 

I figure I will use this for a while, and eventually move up to an A-series CPU that is more equipped to handle media playback and other applications. The Cortex will then handle peripheral interfacing.

Yes, this is all gross overkill, but it's just so much fun. This is what led me to building an EV anyway, and I have been having fun writing bits and pieces of code to do various things. For example, I'm presently working on the FAT file system driver to interface with SD cards. I know there are plenty of open-source FAT drivers out there, but I figured it would be a fun puzzle to solve -- and it has been. The exception being some unfortunate decisions on case-insensitivity, half OEM code-page and half Unicode character sets, and the resulting complexity in matching file names. I guess Microsoft wasn't thinking of a world full of languages when they wrote the spec for DOS 2.0.


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