# thoughts on conversion as a business ?!



## dtbaker (Jan 5, 2008)

I would love nothing more to see at least one conversion shop spring up in every major town/city... seems like such a great idea on so many levels we are all well aware of. Exactly what we need to improve Emissions, recycle rather than re-manufacture, provide some jobs, etc.

I'm puttering away trying to figure out a business plan to set up a local conversion business on used cars... Making a jump from just doing my own to converting and SELLING. The thing I can't get a grip on is how to handle the liability/warranty of a converted vehicle.

What do YOU do? Have customers indemnify you with the vehicle being sold 'as-is' and hope they never try to sue? Have a PE bless the structural changes as not affecting the vehicle safety? Have only licensed engineers and welders design and build battery racks and licensed electricians bless schematics??

With no real 'standards' or codes in place for converted vehicles, I can't see how to really protect the conversion shop against lawsuits after accidents if there is any shred of evidence that an accident could be linked back to the conversion.... or that the severity of injuries might have been worse because of the EV changes affecting designed crumple zones, etc.

There really are no guidelines or regulations at a federal or state level to point at and show 'hey, I followed best-practice and used UL listed parts, etc...'

Even if we make it a home garage-business, and only sell one once in a while, how do we reduce our exposure of selling a 'modified' vehicle?

comments?

D


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## madmike8 (Jun 16, 2011)

I think it would be like any Hot Rod Shop... When you drive it out the door it's yours... Of course if you cut out the front crossmember and replaced it with a welded logging chain (Yup, seen it for real) or sell a controller made from led dimmers and radio shack boards you might get hit with a lawsuit if something ever happened...


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## dtbaker (Jan 5, 2008)

madmike8 said:


> I think it would be like any Hot Rod Shop... When you drive it out the door it's yours... Of course if you cut out the front crossmember and replaced it with a welded logging chain (Yup, seen it for real) or sell a controller made from led dimmers and radio shack boards you might get hit with a lawsuit if something ever happened...



...never having bought a hot rod, I'm wondering if they typically even attempt to get a waiver signed at sale acknowledging that the vehicle is modified, or perhaps a kit that may or may not have ever had DOT crash testing, etc. , or if they just count on the protection/insurance of a basic 'garage'.


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## Salty9 (Jul 13, 2009)

At one time DIY auto repair shops had some popularity (at least in the Northwest) where users could rent space and tools. Something like this might be worth considering. It should reduce the owners liability. It would also give you an excuse to buy and depreciate a lot of toys like CNC, plasma cutter, water jet and electronic gear.


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## dtbaker (Jan 5, 2008)

Salty9 said:


> At one time DIY auto repair shops had some popularity (at least in the Northwest) where users could rent space and tools. Something like this might be worth considering. It should reduce the owners liability. It would also give you an excuse to buy and depreciate a lot of toys like CNC, plasma cutter, water jet and electronic gear.



yes, having all the toys would be a lot of fun.... but it would take a steady stream of work to generate any REVENUE to depreciate against. on top of paying for a space. ;0 

The other issue with this is that it is a different model training each person basically to convert their own.... rather than a conversion service that might build on spec, or build for people that really had not interest in DIY.


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## zeroexcelcior (Aug 2, 2011)

The idea sounds wonderful, I'd love to get involved in something like that.


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## favguy (May 2, 2008)

I'd love to do something like this as a business. Here in the 
UK though, I don't think I'd find enough takers prepared to pay enough to be able to convert with the right parts and specs' needed to build a quality product and make a profit.

Unlike the US, the "problem" here is we have lots of pretty good quality new Diesel cars that will consistently get 60+ MPG (UK gallon=9pints) and can be bought for much less than the cost of a good conversion, which even allowing for very modest labour rates, on a newish car would end up costing almost as much as a new Leaf!!


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## skooler (Mar 26, 2011)

Favguy,

I disagree, I believe that there is a market for EV conversions in the UK. I think you are looking at it from the wrong direction.

I can see a market for converting classic/collector cars to order. I know of a person that has happily spent £60,000 restoring a VW camper, new modern engine, suspension, brakes etc.

I'm sure that some of the people spending this much cash on a classic/collectable would consider the option of an electric conversion if they knew it was available. I dont think people know it is an option.

Mike



favguy said:


> I'd love to do something like this as a business. Here in the
> UK though, I don't think I'd find enough takers prepared to pay enough to be able to convert with the right parts and specs' needed to build a quality product and make a profit.
> 
> Unlike the US, the "problem" here is we have lots of pretty good quality new Diesel cars that will consistently get 60+ MPG (UK gallon=9pints) and can be bought for much less than the cost of a good conversion, which even allowing for very modest labour rates, on a newish car would end up costing almost as much as a new Leaf!!


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## dtbaker (Jan 5, 2008)

favguy said:


> I'd love to do something like this as a business. Here in the
> UK though, I don't think I'd find enough takers prepared to pay enough to be able to convert with the right parts and specs' needed to build a quality product and make a profit.



thats part of the problem, but also part of the solution if the business could also handle the 'micro-lending' and make interest on the payments through a lease-back where they could claim depreciation. I THINK there is a way to do it, but it is not a slam-dunk.


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## favguy (May 2, 2008)

Hi Skooler,

You might be right with the classic car stuff, I've only considered it on more mainstream modern cars. 

I have been involved with the classic car scene, used to show a 50's VW myself in the early 90's, I think the problem might be volume, most classic car types are into originality, so finding those who are happy to put a state of the art EV setup into thier cherished classic might prove hard work...


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## dtbaker (Jan 5, 2008)

favguy said:


> Hi Skooler,
> 
> You might be right with the classic car stuff, I've only considered it on more mainstream modern cars.


there are a couple places having some success with replica conversions like dukesgaragellc.com in Denver doing Porche speedsters and spyders, but pretty low volume I think compared to their regular restoration business.

My project-after-next will be to convert a '62 Sunbeam Alpine... there are a fair number of 60s era sports cars that are still affordable and had crappy little 4-bangers to start with that people get tired of maintaining.


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## skooler (Mar 26, 2011)

I see your point with the originality. 

Saying that its not all that different to what was shown on top gear a few months back with a company putting new parts into a Jaguar (XJS?)

If their is a market, it will be with the classics and collectables and also for those with obscene amounts of money wanting a modern, electric supercar. 

I would definately be interested in converting for other people, its just finding those people!

On a side note, How is the skoda conversion coming along?



favguy said:


> Hi Skooler,
> 
> You might be right with the classic car stuff, I've only considered it on more mainstream modern cars.
> 
> ...


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## favguy (May 2, 2008)

Hi Skooler,

I'm all for getting involved with conversions for customers if viable, maybe I should re-think things! 

As for the Skoda, I've built racking for the front battery, where the rad. was since the last update, but have been away from it for a month or more now as other life related dullness has kept me from it!! 

Regards

Paul


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## Jozzer (Mar 29, 2009)

favguy said:


> I'd love to do something like this as a business. Here in the
> UK though, I don't think I'd find enough takers prepared to pay enough to be able to convert with the right parts and specs' needed to build a quality product and make a profit.
> 
> Unlike the US, the "problem" here is we have lots of pretty good quality new Diesel cars that will consistently get 60+ MPG (UK gallon=9pints) and can be bought for much less than the cost of a good conversion, which even allowing for very modest labour rates, on a newish car would end up costing almost as much as a new Leaf!!


I already run a business doing converisons in the UK, so I hope there are enough customers
Up until now I have been dealing mainly with race vehicles, or doing partial conversions (the bits that take tools and engineering/electronics skills) that the client then completes themselves, and have made it clear from the start there is to be no liability...though I do of course warranty all our work. Now I'm beginning to focus more on road vehicles I guess I'll have to readdress the issues. Of course a traders insurance policy goes a long way to covering most eventualities..
One thing I will say though, is that I have the nicest bunch of customers I could wish for, most are extremely understanding of the challenges involved and keen to get to know how to care for their new EV. 
Perhaps in the USA, where compensation claims and liability cases are that much more "normal" I would be more worried..

Steve


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## dataman19 (Oct 7, 2009)

First off My experience with Repair/Conversion shops have been both positive and negative.
..
Partnered with an individual in Homestead, Florida in the 1970s. We did V8 and V6 conversions. V8-Vegas, V-6 Vegas, V-6 Pintos, V-8 Toyota Land Cruisers, V-8 Porche Conversions (yea I said Porche). Great business (kinda crazy customers, but hey... money is money) never had any serious problems.... I had the business for two and one half years....
..
1980s I partnered with a fellow Air Force Technician to open a 1960-70's muscle car shop in Warner Robbins Georgia. Night Mare... We got re[pair jobs that were towed in that other shops had hacked... Customers were often upset that they were going to have to pay some one else to repair what they had paid someone else to do. We Still managed to satisfy almost every one...
..
Enter the legal issues.... Liability Insurance the first year was astronomical $5M Liability Coverage cost us over $20K a year. But one lawsuit proved it's worth. My only problem is that in a lawsuit, the lawyers go for the Max Insurance coverage, a customer brings a 1970 El Camino in with a welded and hacked frame and 150-lbs of bondo on a quarter panel. Customer elects to keep old hacked frame and pays for the Panel replacement and paint. Total Repairs $2,400 and customer signs liability waiver for frame.... Two months later we get served. In court pictures of a :factory frame" were used along side on the frame in the car when "we gave it back to the customer"... End result, Our Insurance policy covered the $230,000 court case (but not our $20,000 in legal fees - yea, we saved $230,000 ???).
..
My point is - you can't win them all. You can just try your best.
...
Building/Starting an EV Conversion shop? GREAT IDEA!!!! But be prepared to weather the bad times too. Incidentally, $5M in product liability and simple liability insurance in Phoenix, Arizona is currently around $2,800 a year. How do I know? That's what I pay for mine. Granted I have a 10-year history with the under writer and no serious claims either. But the point is you have to shop around. Our Insurance covers five vehicles, three utility trailers and 3 employees (Full medical, dental and eye coverage), along with workers comp... Seriously, we pay over $1,000 a month, but that's for the whole package. The liability and [product liability rider is only $2,845.00 annually.
...
Being afraid to do something is your biggest obstacle. Having the monetary funds to actually put your idea in practice is the second. Once you get past these two points - the rest is kindergarten play ground....
...
Note: I have looked at several EV Conversion Businesses here in Arizona, In California, and in Texas. Common theme, no one claims to be getting rich (but three buy brand new Cadillac Escalades every year (seriously, I didn't know Cadillac Escalades came in an EV Package.....???). But they also drive Prius Hybrids.... What's up with that?
..
Two actually drove EVs, and they seem to be getting along real well. One individual stated that he would make a lot more money is he had more shop equipment (he only had an engine dolly, a cheap MIG Welder that he bought from Harbour Freight, an Digital Multi-Meter, a clamp on Amp meter and a few floor jacks. I mean seriously he was under prepared equipment wise. He had one employee to help him. Under prepared?... Or was he? His conversions were all top notch, and his work was excellent. His customers came and go and everyone was happy... So what's wrong with that?
..
Another shop had tons of equipment and all the work looked good, but lacked the pizazz and good looks of the simple shop operator. There were three techs bent over one vehicle, one in the break room (every one is entitled to breaks) and two out sick when I visited. He had two conversions in the shop. This owner complained that his labor was killing him and revenue was bad (hey it's a bad economy...). When I left he walked out with me and (yea you guessed it) climbed in to a brand spanking new Cadillac Escalade in the parking lot....
...
So who is doing it right? Not for me to say. I just build stuff, seriously I build stuff. I build Bio Diesel Processing plants, Ethanol Plants, Solar Cell Manufacturing Plants, Green House Facilities and stuff like that. My expertise is to take an idea and build a solution to make the owner money. Face it, in this economy no one is doing it just for the humanity of it. Yea I know there are thousands of individuals working in their garages to do EV Conversions, and they are doing better that excellent work. But to build a plant or shop that actually survives as a working enterprise takes a different skill set. Having an owner that understands the business, or one that is willing to learn and pay attention to the business is paramount. The owner is the one who is willing to stay until 11PM on a Friday Night to finish the job (Because the customer was told it should be done by saturday), every one else is an employee (they aren't obligated to stay late without increased pay - in fact is isn't legal for them to...).
...
When a person goes into the EV business with the correct mind set and a good product knowledge and skill set the worst they will do is get by. But they are more likely to succeed. You have to like the business, and you have to be willing to work with customers. You also need to live by the golden rule...
"God help me, Help me to take responsibility for mya actions and surrounding, Help me to change the things that I can to make them better, To accept that I do not have the ability or obligation to change everything, and Dear Lord Please Give me the wisdom to realize which is which"...
..
Yea I know I altered it.. But Am I right? 
...
If you want to open a conversion shop and have the knowledge ans skill set - GO FOR IT!!! I'm rootin fur ya...
...
Dave Mason
dataman19


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## dtbaker (Jan 5, 2008)

dataman19 said:


> Note: I have looked at several EV Conversion Businesses here in Arizona, In California, and in Texas. Common theme, no one claims to be getting rich (but three buy brand new Cadillac Escalades every year



thanks for the input.....

...and how can they sleep at night driving Escalades?!


I'm still pondering, and planning to get more serious with market research in my area to see if there is enough real interest.


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## Salty9 (Jul 13, 2009)

At one time the govt was paying business to buy rigs like Escalades. I'm sure they are being depreciated in the business.


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## Bowser330 (Jun 15, 2008)

I would love to setup a conversion shop, but I don't have the capital to get started...I gotta think of ways to raise money...angel investors?

These days with technology being much more available and inexpensive you can cover yourself pretty well from frivolous and shady lawsuits. Like the fake pictures of the before/after frame job the previous poster mentioned.

Take pictures of everything on the job, why not setup a video camera recording all the work on the job, if a question comes up you can pull it out as evidence you never touched the damn frame.

You can have the customer sign a waiver but you should also have them sign something more detailed, like a walk-around inspection, showing them the critical components and frames with pictures of before/after. Oh and record that whole conversation on video as well.


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## dtbaker (Jan 5, 2008)

the thing I am most concerned with in EV conversions are that:
- using non-certified welders to build racks for batteries, and motor mounts, that are designed by non "PE' licensed people.
- clutch/tranny adaptors failing
- batteries not lasting to spec, whether real or due to misuse.


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## Bowser330 (Jun 15, 2008)

dtbaker said:


> the thing I am most concerned with in EV conversions are that:
> - using non-certified welders to build racks for batteries, and motor mounts, that are designed by non "PE' licensed people.
> - clutch/tranny adaptors failing
> - batteries not lasting to spec, whether real or due to misuse.


When custom tuning body shops do welds on cars, are all of those guys certified welders? I doubt it....same goes for designing motor mounts. If the scope of work or contract explains clearly the lack of certifications and they sign up that they are okay with that, I don't see a problem. Just like you hiring a handyman instead of a licensed contractor....right?

Clutch tranny adapters will be something you should warranty and the damage it causes, thats integral to the conversion and is not something the client could easily damage with misuse.

the only solution for the battery protection is to dummy proof it. You have to set hard stops at a depth that will not negatively affect cell-cycle life, set maximum amp draw at a C-rating that is more conservative, and setup a reliable BMS system to prevent over charging.

You could also include as part of your sale a "quarterly service package" where they would schedule an appointment to come into your shop once every 3 months so you could check on the conditions of the EV, e.g. battery balance, brush wear, etc. If the customer pays upfront for the maintenance appointments then they would be cheaper than setting them up ad-hoc. Something like that.


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## newenergy (Oct 20, 2010)

Very encouraging stuff dataman, thanks.



dtbaker said:


> the thing I am most concerned with in EV conversions are that:
> - using non-certified welders to build racks for batteries, and motor mounts, that are designed by non "PE' licensed people.
> - clutch/tranny adaptors failing
> - batteries not lasting to spec, whether real or due to misuse.


Doesn't seem that hard to get certified as a welder and it sounds like fun. Also, my experience as a building/electrical contractor is that it's usually not that difficult or expensive for an engineer to take a look and sign off on something if you design it well.


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## DavidDymaxion (Dec 1, 2008)

Wayne Alexander is one of the most successful -- he does the same thing over and over.

Imagine a kit where most of it is one big block that contains the motor, controller, charger, and some batteries. It drops right in and bolts to the original motor mounts. A 2nd bank of batteries bolts in where the gas tank used to be. You have just created a kit for a one day conversion. You are faster because you can do almost all of the building on a work bench, the customer has a much shorter turn around, or could do the conversion themselves.


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## newenergy (Oct 20, 2010)

A few years ago things were different, but I think if the major manufacturer's cars are successful there isn't going to be a good enough market for converters to do the same car over and over. Seems like the conversion customer is going to want something unique; most of the time being a restored and electrified classic. Kitting something up might be different for a small market of diy'ers. Maybe if you sold some equipment and consulting.


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## dataman19 (Oct 7, 2009)

I disagree in regard to the major manufacturers producing electric vehicles causing EV Conversion Shops to go out of Business.
..
We saw all this before. The EV1 taken off the Market, Electric Toyota RAV4s in California, etc. The Manufactures said " it was because the buying public didn't like or want them." In reality, it was because Texaco Energy bought the Battery design and patent and ordered them to stop making them. Really interesting fact was that The US Government, GM and Toyota all worked with the battery patent holder to sell the company to Texaco Energy under the agreed assumption that Texaco Energy had the funds and resources to meet auto manufacturer's 10-year production quota figure/demands.
..
But as is the case in any alternative energy to petroleum - this was not the case.
...
EV Conversion shops are going to be around for years to come. The fact that the car company's are getting into the game may or may not be a public relations FAD. But the resulting Research and Development, and Engineering spurt can only help the cause.
..
The result could very well be a better battery system (The EV community needs one, especially since the Generation II EV1 battery that had three times the power of any other battery system was pulled by the new owner - Texaco Energy, before it could get out the door. Especially since it would have increased the Per Charge range on the EV1 to a miserly 260 miles per charge.).
....
The reality is that one can expect to only make about $1M-$3M annually with a good conversion shop, where it would probably be possible to pocket $10M-$20M had the auto makers not entered the market.
..
I personally know of two EV Conversion shops that NET over $3M annually, and they aren't actively promoting their businesses (could be paranoia that the auto makers will interfere, maybe not - not for me to say). The owner's are happy, and their employees are not only "Employed" but productive and happy.
..
Point is - people with urban gardens are making a better living by growing organic locally grown vegetables that they did working for a $65K annual salary. Yet you can buy vegetable in just about any super market and corner market.
..
I think the same analogy applies to the EV Industry.
...
One of my favorite quotes:
""" People who say that it can't be done,
Shouldn't get in the way of those who are already doing it...""
.....
Dave R. Mason
Arizona Bio Fuels Research
Phoenix Computer Labs
High Forrest Technologies
...
dataman19


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## Bowser330 (Jun 15, 2008)

They NET 3M$/yr?? a conversion shop that doesn't actively advertise?? How is this possible? Are they taking advantage of people with crazy margins on the components and labor costs...or...do they really have that much volume?


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## newenergy (Oct 20, 2010)

dataman19 said:


> Point is - people with urban gardens are making a better living by growing organic locally grown vegetables that they did working for a $65K annual salary. Yet you can buy vegetable in just about any super market and corner market.
> ..


I don't disagree. I think the EV equivalent of locally grown organic vegetables is going to be more like building to suit than repeating the same car over and over. An exception might be some kind of kit car replica of a classic.


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## DavidDymaxion (Dec 1, 2008)

I think what you are saying is making the same old, used economy car conversion over and over is going to be a tough sell if you can get a brand new Ford Focus electric or similar for a comparable cost (plus you get financing and a warranty). Agreed on that!

However, despite many fine sports cars available, there still is a niche of Cobra kit cars (often costing more money that just having bought a new sports car, and certainly more than a used one). Despite some very fine new airplanes, the kit plane industry thrives. The more successful ones typically turn out the same product over and over.

As long as I'm on that role, it seems like my "block" idea of all the components in a V8-sized block that drops into the engine bay would be a good thing for Cobra kit cars, and with minimal adaptation would drop right into Corvettes, V8 trucks, Camaros, Mustangs, basically any RWD V8 car.


newenergy said:


> A few years ago things were different, but I think if the major manufacturer's cars are successful there isn't going to be a good enough market for converters to do the same car over and over. Seems like the conversion customer is going to want something unique; most of the time being a restored and electrified classic. Kitting something up might be different for a small market of diy'ers. Maybe if you sold some equipment and consulting.


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## dataman19 (Oct 7, 2009)

Or,
You could do what the successful conversion shops are doing...
Do Conversions for the Utility Companies....
They buy a fleet of say 20 F-150 Pickups,
You get them from the Utility and Rip Out The engines and fuel system
Then you outfit them with AC Drive Controllers and motors.
Install Battery packs under the bed...
Charge the Utility Company, who forwards the bill to the Dept of Energy, who pay you...
..
There is a Federal Mandate that Requires the Utilities and any and all Government agencies (- Federal, State, County and City) to have 20% of their fleet running alternative energy vehicles by Dec 31 st 2011..
..
Last Time I looked - that is next month.
..
In order to get out of the mandate "they" can request a waiver based upon "No local Availability" - but that only gets them an 18-month extension. But "They" have to state that there is no available conversion shop (If you have a shop and follow the steps in the last paragraph - YOU GET THE BUSINESS... Period. If You have a shop - They Must Hire You...)
...
Right now the Chinese companies are trying to bid. But they cannot get the contract until after the 1st extension expires (that is fixing to change since the current Congress is debating eliminating the "US Company" requirement due to the lack of available conversion companies and considering opening the market to foreign company's. The Congressional Rational is that the foreign companies will help the United states reach it's alternative energy goals sooner, rather than later.
..
That's what happened with the National Highways Bridge Funding (another goofy stimulus plan). One or two states petitioned the US Government to allow foreign companies to bid on the National Highway Bridge Repair project. So two Chinese company's got the bid, and they are "bringing" their own workforce that is working for less than minimum wage. The Congressional Justification is that the Chinese company's can do it for less, so they can get these so called "bad" bridges done faster. Two member of Congress actually stated - "If the US Bridge Company's had the expertise and were willing to bid as low as the Chinese - then they would get the contracts.
..
The same is happening in the EV Conversion business. Not enough people doing it, so the utilities are lobbying to give the contracts to off shore companies.
...
Arizona (2006) Dept of Defense - VIA EV received an order for 24 NEV Utility Vehicles for Test and Acceptance. Follow on USAF Contract for 60 Vehicles per year (5-Year Contract). Follow on Defense contract for U.S. Navy to the tune of $540M over 5-year period for 2,000 Aircraft Assault Vehicle NEV Utility vehicles to replace diesel powered Aircraft Carrier support vehicles (I didn't know they had that many Aircraft Carriers, oh well). VIA EVs founder Died of Cancer in 2007 - the remaining partners were waylayed by Government Purchasing Red Tape and got stuck on a $5M Weapons System Product Liability and Technical Orders (the repair publications required for all Military Equipment). From what I understand they were quoted by a local (Tempe Arizona) Insurance broker at $500K per year for the policy. Funny thing was I got a quote for $125K per year for a $10M Manufacturer's Product Liability Policy (????). Anyway they put the company up for sale in 2009 and threw in the towel. The company sold to a New Hampshire Company in 2011. The $540M Navy contract was picked up by a Japanese Company is Sept of 2011.
...
Arizona (2011) Salt River Project contracted with a Phoenix Conversion shop to convert 60 Pickups to all electric (they are 20 Vehicles short of complying with the Dec 31st deadline - but they have a waiver for the rest - 1st waiver). 
..
Arizona (2011) Arizona Public Service contracted with a Phoenix Conversion shop to do conversions on 40 Fleet Pickup (they are currently short 120 vehicles to meet their Dec 31st deadline).
...
Arizona (2011) Western Power contracted with a Tuscon Conversion shop to do conversions on 80 fleet pickups. (the work was actually done in San Diego, CA, and the trucks were shipped to Tuscon for delivery. This is legal, all the work doesn't have to be done in any one shop, they company location that makes the contract is what drives the train).
...
Georgia (2011) - Same deal with Georgia Power. Georgia Power needs 120 more vehicles before Dec - but, they have a pending waiver.
..
Tennessee, Alabama and Mississippi (2011) Tennessee Valley Authority put out a Bid for 860 Conversions to be completed by Dec 31st (the Bid was Published in Sept of 2010). No one bid initially, then an Indiana Company agreed to do 60 conversions - they got the bid, and are currently doing an additional 60 conversion. Next year they will get another contract to do 60 more. They get away with partial bidding because they supposedly have a 5-man shop (a Minority, Female Vetran Owned Business - three times the bidding power).
...
This is going on all over the country - so don't tell me people aren't making money.
..
Most people tell me the $1M Product liability requirement is what keeps them out of the business (but $1M product liability for a start up is only about $5K to $10K a year, is drops by 30% after two years, then another 30% after 5 years and bottoms out at about $2,400 a year..... What's so hard about that?
..
Do you have a conversion shop? Can you actually do conversions on a large scale? If so - you should register with the Government Accounting Office as a "Certified Defense Contractor" and start bidding on these contracts. If you don't some one else will.
..
Need grant money - the Dept of Defense hands out grant money. want to see where all the grants are going:
www.grants.gov
....
How do I know all this - I can read. It's all in the Federal Register, and published in the National Budget as well.
..
December 2011 is upon us, the next deadline is Dec 31st 2015. They need 35% of Vehicle Fleet to be alternative energy/fuels... This means Electric, BioDiesel (B-100) and Ethanol E-85 Blends.
..
Last time I checked all the interest on this forum is "Electric Vehicles" and that's the first energy requirement.
...
So what part of $3M doesn't make sense?
..
So how do you become a "Certified Conversion Shop"? You take a George Washington Test at Wal Mart (where you pay $5.00 and they print an ID on the spot - Just kidding). Seriously, you register with the government, then get a DUNS Number (it's like an IRS Tax ID, and the link to get one is supplied when you register on-line. Hint- you are required to get a DUNS number for Grants applications, and contracting ) then you fill out an on-line application. An Inspector comes out and inspects your facility and then you get a letter in the mail with your additional paperwork (this is where they ask for Manufacturer's Product Liability, Worker's Comp for companies with over 5 employees , but waived if you are Minority, Female Vetran Owned - in which case they give you five years to obtain the Liability Rider. The cool part is - once you are registered - they government agencies do not have to competitive bid - they can select from any of the conversion companies in the region (the ones that are GSA Supplier Certified). If you do what VIA did, you get a Defense Pilot Project and deliver the pilot vehicles - you don't get inspected - your work is the inspection.... Red tape can be daunting, and the Tech Order Requirement may seem daunting, but tech orders are a structured Repair manual. There are hundreds of Technical Publishers who can help with that requirement - neat thing is, the Tech Order Requirement is an automatic add on, meaning the government is requiring the Tech Order Documentation, but they pay additional, above and beyond the contract requirement. The only stickler with say a Navy Contract is that you have to also supply special tool kits (which is also charges above and beyond the contract) and guarantee that you will be willing to supply any special repair parts for 20 years - but you get to state the parts cost at the time of request down the road (How do you think the government got charged so much for those $1,200 hammers twenty years ago?).
...
Dave Mason
dataman19


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## Bowser330 (Jun 15, 2008)

I didnt know about these government mandates and now I can see how they could Net 3M$/year. Tons of volume and hefty margins provided & paid by the government.

Thanks for the information.


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## PhantomPholly (Aug 20, 2008)

The government certainly seems to be the quickest way to make a bigger profit these days if you have the connections, since it doesn't feel any need to balance it's budget.

However, I also think it would be possible to make a case for a private conversion shop be profitable if you develop a formula with proven utility / value.

For example, I believe the parts cost for a small pickup conversion using a decent used donor vehicle; a Kostov motor (a bit cheaper than a Warp HV, but still pretty acceptable for power); a fully automated PowerGlide transmission (apparently possible for well under $1,000); Solitron Jr; and about 24KwHrs worth of Aquion batteries (now in low volume production, should be more readily available by next year) would be well under $20,000. Given assumptions taken from other threads, that ought to have a 60+ mile range (24KwHrs = approx. 3 gallons of gas). Removed parts could be sold to recoup some costs, and actual conversion effort could be minimized quickly after the first few models. Since the vehicles have intrinsic value, they would be eligible for a business loan (you would doubtless have to come up with some initial capital) for each vehicle, and you could lease them to businesses or individuals. If you stick with the same model of vehicle, you could probably crank out several a month using recently graduated high school students for labor. Since it's a lease, you could include all service in the lease price (brakes, tires, etc.) and make a little money on the service aspect of the business. You could also keep one or two loaners in case one of the leased vehicles needs to be in the shop. 

Such a plan might well garner green energy grants. Get one or two people qualified, and you could charge to install 220v charging stations at the businesses. And, of course, as technology improves in batteries you could simply update the fleet batteries (if necessary).

Like everyone else I've had some setbacks this past two years, but I like the idea a lot and now that this thread has put the idea out I think I'll start looking into the possibility of doing something like this locally.


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