# [EVDL] Glitter in the coolant?



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Ok believe it or not this is a serious question.

I would like to know if the is anything I can safely add to the coolant of my Zilla so that it will be obvious that the coolant is flowing? I am using clear reinforced tubing and it's hard to tell if the pump is circulating coolant.

Dave Delman
electricdelorean.com

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

How about airbubbles? Add some multicolored LEDs for that Wurlitzer effect!



> Dave Delman <[email protected]> wrote:
> > Ok believe it or not this is a serious question.
> >
> > I would like to know if the is anything I can safely add to the coolant of my Zilla so that it will be obvious that the coolant is flowing? I am using clear reinforced tubing and it's hard to tell if the pump is circulating coolant.
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

just realize that you'd be creating a connection between the heat sink
the fluid flows into, and the radiator. As long as its safe to have
that ground loop.... I'd check with Otmar first.



> Peter Gabrielsson <[email protected]> wrote:
> > How about airbubbles? Add some multicolored LEDs for that Wurlitzer effect!
> >
> >
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Not if you used something that was not metal and that would not react 
to the coolant.



> Travis Gintz wrote:
> 
> > just realize that you'd be creating a connection between the heat sink
> > the fluid flows into, and the radiator. As long as its safe to have
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Hello Dave,

Go to a plumbing and heating supply store, and have a look at a flow switch. 
These are use for boiler and heating control, where the fluid most flow 
first before these units fire up.

Get the smallest one you can fine. It has a normally open and a normally 
close micro switch which it activates. Wire 12 volts through the common and 
NO contact and run a green LED indicator on the dash plates.

You could have another wire coming off the NC contact which would go to a 
red LED.

This flow switch is supply with the 12 volt ignition circuit.

The indications then are:

No RED and GREEN LED indicator lite - No ignition power to switch.


A RED LED on and GREEN LED off - Ignition power on, but no coolent flow.

A GREEN LED on and RED LED off - Ignition power on, and coolent is flowing.


You can install indicators before and after every device, fuse, fuse blown 
indictors, contactor, fans, airflow indicators, ignition controls, accessory 
power, voltage, ampere,

You will end up with a dash and console unit looking like my unit. Anytime 
some happens with a circuit, or the EV goes dead, these indicators can 
trouble shoot the problem, and then you switch in a back up circuit on the 
go.

Roland

A


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Dave Delman" <[email protected]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, January 22, 2008 6:53 PM
Subject: [EVDL] Glitter in the coolant?


> Ok believe it or not this is a serious question.
>
> I would like to know if the is anything I can safely add to the coolant of 
> my Zilla so that it will be obvious that the coolant is flowing? I am 
> using clear reinforced tubing and it's hard to tell if the pump is 
> circulating coolant.
>
> Dave Delman
> electricdelorean.com
>
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
> 

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

[No message]


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

I doubt it would hurt anything aside from possibly
clogging the pump, but they make coolant flow
indicators for computer liquid cooling setups.
Basically it's a little pin wheel inside a tube so you
can visually see the coolant moving. I would just get
one of them from one of the thousands of computer case
mod sites on the internet.

Later,
Rick
92 Saturn SC conversion
AZ Alt Fuel Plates "ZEROGAS"

---------------------------
Message: 18
Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2008 20:53:00 -0500
From: "Dave Delman" <[email protected]>
Subject: [EVDL] Glitter in the coolant?
To: [email protected]
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1"

Ok believe it or not this is a serious question.

I would like to know if the is anything I can safely
add to the coolant
of my Zilla so that it will be obvious that the
coolant is flowing? I
am using clear reinforced tubing and it's hard to
tell if the pump is
circulating coolant.

Dave Delman
electricdelorean.com


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

There are all sorts of little fittings and gadgets to stick in a piece of tubing to allow various checks (visual, flow, temperature, etc.) I've seen colored balls, little propellers, liquid crystals, flags that flap.

The simplest might be to put a small amount of colored oil or something that won't mix with the coolant. When there's flow, it will get chopped up by the pump impeller and appear as little "bubbles" moving past. When there's no flow, it will all float out somewhere and the tube will be clear.

Or, put a little plastic ball or something in a section of hose between two fittings sized so it's trapped between them. When there's flow, it gets carried by the flow to one end. When there's no flow, gravity carries it to the other end.

The only thing new is the history you don't know yet. -- Harry Truman
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart-at-earthlink.net

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

It is OK to ground the heat sink in a Zilla.

It is smart to run plastic lines, just as you are doing, to avoid 
grounding the radiator. This will help prevent galvanic action.

Bill Dube'

At 07:19 PM 1/22/2008, you wrote:
>just realize that you'd be creating a connection between the heat sink
>the fluid flows into, and the radiator. As long as its safe to have
>that ground loop.... I'd check with Otmar first.
>
>On Jan 22, 2008 6:09 PM, Peter Gabrielsson 
><[email protected]> wrote:
> > How about airbubbles? Add some multicolored LEDs for that Wurlitzer effect!
> >
> >
> >


> Dave Delman <[email protected]> wrote:
> > > > Ok believe it or not this is a serious question.
> > > >
> > > > I would like to know if the is anything I can safely add to the
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

But won't the radiator and heatsink be electrically connected anyways
(through the coolant)?

-Morgan LaMoore



> Bill Dube <[email protected]> wrote:
> > It is OK to ground the heat sink in a Zilla.
> >
> > It is smart to run plastic lines, just as you are doing, to avoid
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

flowmeter

http://www.highspeedpc.com/Merchant2/merchant.mv?Screen=PROD&Product_Code=FlowProRev3&Category_Code=FanTempFlow
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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

I'm not saying you can't ground it, I'm talking more the potential of
creating a ground loop. You usually want to be grounded all at one
point.

And coolant, as far as I remember, isn't conductive.

I'd use one of the other tips they've mentioned, an actual flow
meter/indicator. You could make one with a clear piece of PVC and a
plastic ball.



> Morgan LaMoore <[email protected]> wrote:
> > But won't the radiator and heatsink be electrically connected anyways
> > (through the coolant)?
> >
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Travis Gintz <[email protected]> wrote:
> > I'm not saying you can't ground it, I'm talking more the potential of
> > creating a ground loop. You usually want to be grounded all at one
> > point.
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

You should always use distilled water or rain water, no matter what vehicle 
it is used in. Tap water contains minerals which will evetually plug 
radiators. I've learned this the hard way - I don't want to replace anymore 
radiators!

Joseph H. Strubhar

Web: www.gremcoinc.com

E-mail: [email protected]
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Morgan LaMoore" <xxx[email protected]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, January 22, 2008 7:51 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Glitter in the coolant?


>


> Travis Gintz <[email protected]> wrote:
> >> I'm not saying you can't ground it, I'm talking more the potential of
> >> creating a ground loop. You usually want to be grounded all at one
> >> point.
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Dave Delman writes:
> 
> I would like to know if the is anything I can safely add to the coolant
> of my Zilla so that it will be obvious that the coolant is flowing?
> I am using clear reinforced tubing and it's hard to tell if the pump is
> circulating coolant.

Perhaps this flow meter could be mounted on your dash:

http://www.xoxide.com/thermaltake-flow-tx-indicator.html

;-)


Or do as Bill suggested... My system is also setup with the coolant
return higher than the fluid level in the tank and I can hear the
coolant gurgling slightly when the pump is running. Only while the
car is not moving though.

Ralph

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Dave Delman writes:
> >
> > I would like to know if the is anything I can safely add to the coolant
> > of my Zilla so that it will be obvious that the coolant is flowing?
> > I am using clear reinforced tubing and it's hard to tell if the pump is
> > circulating coolant.
>

I have mine set up with clear tubing and green coolant. Green fluid
coursing through the veins of my green Zilla! I'm using a Thermaltake
computer cooling system, and they offer green coolant too. It's pretty
much the same as auto coolant. Look at eBay item 330204898728.

Here's something to try, ebay item 230214886130 is a reserviour that
shows the coolant splashing around (I think.)

I like the idea of the glitter in the coolant. Nice visual effect.
They also make UV reactive tubing, item 330204898665. Add a little
bling for when you want to show off your work.

Dave Cover

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

One of the flow meters suggested has an rpm output to the PC, perhaps we
can talk Victor into programming for that in the evision.
I will add it to my digital dash wishlist.

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Jeff Shanab wrote:
> 
> > One of the flow meters suggested has an rpm output to the PC, perhaps
> > we
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

I'm not sure how quantifying flow rate on digital display
(like it shows 1.84 l/min) is going to help you.
Are you going to slow down if you see the flow rate drops to
1.69 l/min?

The water pump is either on or off, so you either get rated flow
or nothing. Much more useful is to know the temperature
of water, not the flow rate, and BTW EVision already has 2 temp
sensors you can use for that purpose. It displays (and alarms on
if set up) the hottest sensor of the two.

I use clear tubing for my coolant and use to have flow indicator.
I placed a short piece
of fish line with about 10 round plastic beads on it. Fish line
had a loop at the end and a needle pierced right through the tube
in clear visible stretch (thick walled tube, so no leaks) also
went through the loop thus holding the fish line from floating away.

You could see beads flapping inside the tube when coolant is flowing.
No flow - fish line with them just lay on the bottom of the tube.
I quickly lost interest watching the flow though - it is no more useful 
than
allowing ICE's coolant flow to be seen in conventional car.
For good reason ICE's rather have temperature gauge or lately -
"overtemp" idiot light, but never "no flow" idiot light.

--
Victor
'91 ACRX - something different




> Jeff Shanab wrote:
> > One of the flow meters suggested has an rpm output to the PC, perhaps we
> > can talk Victor into programming for that in the evision.
> > I will add it to my digital dash wishlist.
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Why not monitor the temperature of the electronics directly? ...

Sure, monitor both!, but by the time you measure this it may be too
late. Knowing that the flow has dropped 20 percent since the last time
you checked or that it is stopping and starting (damn thing catches an
air bubble during acceleration that hides itself when you are looking
under the hood) Can give you advanced warning and help diagnose a problem.

Like knowing the tire pressure is dropping 2 psi a day.

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Having work 20+ years in plastic injection molding I have seen a lot of
flow meters. They really help diagnose problems. If we suddenly have a
controller, charger, and dc-dc off of one pump(probably stupid since
charge not on at same time as controllers, but auto manufacturers...),
we probably would run them in parallel not series. Now a blockage could
occur in one and not the rest and relative flow rates becomes meaningful.

And I have seen flow switches in ICE cooling systems, Usually on
stationary generators. I don't know why.
Maybe because water pumps loose capacity as they age.

Maybe measuring it periodically and looking for a trend, is how you can
know when a problem is gonna show up before it happens.

But you are correct, seeing it on the dash is a waste.

I like having a value cause I can do more with it. What about this? I
could warn and even cutback controller if flow is below minimum. My car
may have a different value than yours so it can learn what is a good
rateing. This type of protection would reduce the continual
overtemp-cutback/cooling/overtemp-cutback cycling that is very hard on
the silicon.

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Cooling is a function of time and temperature.....water temperature is not an indication of actual heat sink temperature. Whereas flowrate could be used as a tool for controlling residence time in the heatsink (with valves or pump speed actually contolling flow)

Less flow gives a longer residence time allowing the coolant to pick up more heat from the system, and on the other side would give more time to expend that heat to the air/coolnat heat exchanger....

a more dynamic system than temperature measurement alone....
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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Put in a flow meter like suggested and a water temp gauge. Monitor 
both flow and temp.

Pete : )





> Dave Delman wrote:
> 
> > Ok believe it or not this is a serious question.
> >
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Mr. Weathers is quite right. Temperature is a better measure of work, but
with atmospheric conditions temperature must be measured at least at two
points. In my experience, the temperature going in a source and out from
the same source is the important thing. In other words the input
temperature and the output temperature are the key, the amount of work done
is the difference between the two. This is commonly referred to as the rise
temperature. Rise temperature shows the true product of the work done.
While Mr. Delman stated he wanted to monitor flow, flow is an input to get a
desired effect. (Step on an ICE gas pedal to increase gas flow, set the
thermostat to 75F when it 100F outside) you get an increase in performance
and increased heat energy (fuel in the car, higher energy bills in the home
AC). In this instance, we want to increase cooling, and the flow gives us
that. The bottom line is rise heat measurement shows work completed; Mr.
Delman's "techie" should have no problem programming two temp sensors and
the deference between. Flow is the desired effect to cool the charger but
the rise should determine the flow. Input temperature and output
temperature compared to get the rise temperature shows actual work
completed. If the flow is not proper then the rise shows that! If a charger
is working in a garage and it is 10F degrees the coolant temperature is XF,
then we may not want it to shut down the charge. In the same garage at 100
degrees, we also may not want it to shut down at temeture X plus 35F. It
all depends on how much work the charger is doing between the input and the
output temperatures. Having said that, there should be an ultimate (failure
temp) coolant temperature shutdown for the charger.

BTW I'm new to the group and just want to build a car! So far I'm impressed.
Hope I wasn't off base or "charter"

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf
Of [email protected]
Sent: Thursday, January 24, 2008 1:37 AM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Glitter in the coolant?

Put in a flow meter like suggested and a water temp gauge. Monitor 
both flow and temp.

Pete : )





> Dave Delman wrote:
> 
> > Ok believe it or not this is a serious question.
> >
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Quick correction if it is cold outside and the temp of the rise coolant is
-X we may want the charger to shutdown!

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

At the highest point of your coolant loop, you can add
a teacup-sized reservoir with a little air bubble or
even open to the outside air for eacy inspection.
Have the "return" tube enter the reservoir just above
the fluid level and you will immediately see the 
stream of fluid entering from that tube when the
pump is running. 
This same situation is present for the inverter-coolant
in the Prius, flow if visible in the bottle above
the inverter.

Regards,

Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
Email: [email protected] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [email protected]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Second Life: www.secondlife.com/?u=3b42cb3f4ae249319edb487991c30acb

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Dave Delman
Sent: Wednesday, January 23, 2008 7:23 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: [EVDL] Glitter in the coolant?

Ok believe it or not this is a serious question.

I would like to know if the is anything I can safely add to the coolant of my Zilla so that it will be obvious that the coolant is flowing? I am using clear reinforced tubing and it's hard to tell if the pump is circulating coolant.

Dave Delman
electricdelorean.com

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

[No message]


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Please consider what happens if you are only
monitoring coolant temp and your pump fails. I heard
a story where an ICE engine had the radiator freeze
up, and the coolant sensor was between the engine and
radiator. Temp never showed overheating, despite what
the engine was doing. Or from more personal
experience, here at work we had a custom built (way
before my time) spectrometer with a triple stack of
peltier elements to cool the detector to about -80
deg. C. There was an interlock flow switch (at 1 GPM)
to shut down the peltier if it detected no coolant
flow. But first the flow switch froze up, due to
using hard water. Then when the brushes on the pump
wore out, with no coolant flow, the peliter elements
melted down destroying the low temperature capability
of the instrument. I have since modified the
remaining instruments to shut down if the pump is on
and the flow switch is not active, _OR_ not allow
start up if the pump is off and the flow switch is
(still) active. It would be better if I also had a
temp sensor on the hot end of the peltier elements,
but that part is sealed under high vacuum and
impractical at this point.

- Steven Ciciora

- Steven Ciciora


Mr. Weathers is quite right. Temperature is a better
measure of work,
but
with atmospheric conditions temperature must be
measured at least at
two
points. In my experience, the temperature going in a
source and out
from
the same source is the important thing. In other
words the input
temperature and the output temperature are the key,
the amount of work
done
is the difference between the two. This is commonly
referred to as the
rise
temperature. Rise temperature shows the true product
of the work done.
While Mr. Delman stated he wanted to monitor flow,
flow is an input to
get a
desired effect. (Step on an ICE gas pedal to increase
gas flow, set the
thermostat to 75F when it 100F outside) you get an
increase in
performance
and increased heat energy (fuel in the car, higher
energy bills in the
home
AC). In this instance, we want to increase cooling,
and the flow gives
us
that. The bottom line is rise heat measurement shows
work completed;
Mr.
Delman's "techie" should have no problem programming
two temp sensors
and
the deference between. Flow is the desired effect to
cool the charger
but
the rise should determine the flow. Input temperature
and output
temperature compared to get the rise temperature shows
actual work
completed. If the flow is not proper then the rise
shows that! If a
charger
is working in a garage and it is 10F degrees the
coolant temperature is
XF,
then we may not want it to shut down the charge. In
the same garage at
100
degrees, we also may not want it to shut down at
temeture X plus 35F.
It
all depends on how much work the charger is doing
between the input and
the
output temperatures. Having said that, there should
be an ultimate
(failure
temp) coolant temperature shutdown for the charger.

BTW I'm new to the group and just want to build a car!
So far I'm
impressed.
Hope I wasn't off base or "charter"

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected]
[mailto:[email protected]] On
Behalf
Of [email protected]
Sent: Thursday, January 24, 2008 1:37 AM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Glitter in the coolant?

Put in a flow meter like suggested and a water temp
gauge. Monitor 
both flow and temp.

Pete : )





> Dave Delman wrote:
> 
> > Ok believe it or not this is a serious question.
> >
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Steven Ciciora wrote:
> > Please consider what happens if you are only
> > monitoring coolant temp and your pump fails. I heard
> > a story where an ICE engine had the radiator freeze
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Steven Ciciora wrote:
> > Please consider what happens if you are only
> > monitoring coolant temp and your pump fails. I heard
> > a story where an ICE engine had the radiator freeze
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Thanks for all the suggestions. I put about 1/2 teaspoon of a very fine 
glitter into the coolant. It works very well... so far.


Thank you,

Dave Delman
1981 Electric DeLorean Project
electricdelorean.com



**************Biggest Grammy Award surprises of all time on AOL Music. 
(http://music.aol.com/grammys/pictures/never-won-a-grammy?NCID=aolcmp003000000025
48)
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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Let us know how it works. Look forward to hearing the long term
report. After you've had some time with it I'll be asking; Does it
stay in solution? How much coolant does your system have? Is 1/2
teaspoon enough? What type of glitter is it?

Dave Cover



> <[email protected]> wrote:
> >
> > Thanks for all the suggestions. I put about 1/2 teaspoon of a very fine
> > glitter into the coolant. It works very well... so far.
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Well so far this is what I can report.... Some glitter has stuck to the wall 
of the tubing at the highest point in the system when the water level was 
too low so it dried there. Again I used so little of it to begin with it is 
hardly noticeable. I estimate there to be about 1.5 - 2 quarts of antifreeze - 
water solution in my system.

The glitter I am using is called Jimmy Jem's POWDERZ the color Prisma 
Silver # CAK315. It was $1.79 at Pearl Arts and Crafts and I have enough for 
about 10 -15 vehicles. They probably have 100 different colors. Mine has a 
silvery rainbow look.



Message: 24
Date: Sat, 26 Jan 2008 22:59:35 -0500
From: "dave cover" <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Glitter in the coolant?
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Message-ID:
<[email protected]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

Let us know how it works. Look forward to hearing the long term
report. After you've had some time with it I'll be asking; Does it
stay in solution? How much coolant does your system have? Is 1/2
teaspoon enough? What type of glitter is it?

Dave Cover




Thank you,

Dave Delman
1981 Electric DeLorean Project
electricdelorean.com



**************Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape. 
http://body.aol.com/fitness/winter-exercise?NCID=aolcmp00300000002489
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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

THis reminds me of the little tubes of copper collored dust we used to stop leaks in the radiator.....
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