# Netgain News! EVCCON



## albano (Jan 12, 2009)

LithiumaniacsEVRacing said:


> George Hamstra released his new motors to us all at EVCCON! The one that I like the most is the new 11" dual com (3 brushes each) High Voltage motor. This will allow higher voltages using Helwig Brushes. Two will be in the Camaro in the spring.


Lucky you


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## rochesterricer (Jan 5, 2011)

Any idea how much voltage this is rated for?


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## Bowser330 (Jun 15, 2008)

They mentioned they were working on a dual-comm version of the Warp11HV on their website in the "news" section.

I am also very curious as to how much voltage the motor will be rated for....Problem is, the highest voltage DC controller on the market right now is the Zilla E-HV, which is 400V, but even that is for the max charged battery voltage...

so 400V / 3.6 = 111 cells @ 3.2V nominal = 355V

I think people are already running 355V on advanced Warp11HVs, so does the dual comm affect how the motor performs, e.g. higher peak rpm for the same voltage as a single comm?

They also had something on the website saying stay tuned for Netgain's AC offerings.....hmmmm


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## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

Bowser330 said:


> ...
> I am also very curious as to how much voltage the motor will be rated for....Problem is, the highest voltage DC controller *on the market right now* is the Zilla E-HV, which is 400V, but even that is for the max charged battery voltage......


But not for long...


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Bowser330 said:


> They also had something on the website saying stay tuned for Netgain's AC offerings.....hmmmm


 I thought that was supposed to be a secret. I guess they must be getting close to releasing them


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## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

I am no expert, but from what I understand the dual comm motor will allow much higher voltage without having to worry about arching. Three seperate brushes on each side, six brushes allowing higher voltage to flow. Just my opinion, you should speak with George, he will explain how it works! Also, thank Mike Pethel, he has paid for this new engineering for all these new motors. 



Bowser330 said:


> They mentioned they were working on a dual-comm version of the Warp11HV on their website in the "news" section.
> 
> I am also very curious as to how much voltage the motor will be rated for....Problem is, the highest voltage DC controller on the market right now is the Zilla E-HV, which is 400V, but even that is for the max charged battery voltage...
> 
> ...


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## Bowser330 (Jun 15, 2008)

Tesseract said:


> But not for long...


But a limited quantity...

BigSol + Warp11HV(Dual Comm) =


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## Bowser330 (Jun 15, 2008)

JRP3 said:


> I thought that was supposed to be a secret. I guess they must be getting close to releasing them


I wonder if it will be something that will compete with the new HPEVS offering? e.g. 100hp @3500rpm & 150ftlbs, 144V, etc.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

I can "speculate" that they will probably be more powerful


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## Bowser330 (Jun 15, 2008)

JRP3 said:


> I can "speculate" that they will probably be more powerful


come on man, give us a little more information...we know you know something, hahaha


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

I really don't have any solid numbers, I just know the potential of some of the components.


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## rochesterricer (Jan 5, 2011)

I'm hoping for at least 200kw


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## Bowser330 (Jun 15, 2008)

rochesterricer said:


> I'm hoping for at least 200kw


"200kw at a good price" you mean...200kw AC systems are out there now, they are just ~25K$, hahahaha.


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## rochesterricer (Jan 5, 2011)

Bowser330 said:


> "200kw at a good price" you mean...200kw AC systems are out there now, they are just ~25K$, hahahaha.


I know, thats why I'm hoping the Netgain version is that powerful, as I doubt they would try to sell something that expensive.


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## Bowser330 (Jun 15, 2008)

Back on topic...

Update on Warp11-DC ?!


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## Nathan219 (May 18, 2010)

Tesseract said:


> But not for long...


You guys get to have too much fun!


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## JRoque (Mar 9, 2010)

Hi. I'm sorry, did someone say "AC"? My AC alarm went off. Netgain is working on an AC system? That's weird. Tess was working on one too, I read somewhere. 

So to recap, HPEV is coming out with a new AC package sometime early 2012. Netgain is working on something AC, ETA? I'm not sure if Evnetics is ongoing with their AC work or if they've been sidetracked (I'm biased) by that mega plasma/fusion generator they call BigSol. It's a happy time to be an AC nerd 

JR


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## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

JRoque said:


> ... Netgain is working on an AC system? That's weird. Tess was working on one too, I read somewhere.


Sort of. We made a serious effort to determine the hardware and software requirements for an inverter and concluded, unsurprisingly, that the development cost was too high for any reasonable expectation of sales volumes. Strangely coincidental, given AC Propulsion's infamously high pricing for their inverters, is that we would have to sell an inverter of comparable power to the Soliton1 for around $20k to make up for the higher development cost *assuming* that it sold at the same annual volume as the Soliton1 (which, at a cost of $20k, obviously ain't gonna happen)... 

BTW - Curtis/HPEV had a booth at EVCCON so I took the opportunity to ask them why they haven't yet made a higher power version of their otherwise well-regarded 1238 controller? They all looked sort of sheepish and then one of the guys there admitted that it wasn't any technical obstacle, just a lack of interest in pursuing another "couple hundred sales on top of 10,000 or so". 

Yeah, Big Sol is a stupid product for us to develop made even dumber because an industrial 2 quadrant (ie - non-regen) DC motor drive rated for the same power costs $50K, but this is a "put up or shut up" product. People have been bugging us for 2 years to make a "racing controller" and we've been rebuffing them because up until very recently I couldn't see a way to do it that wouldn't require a huge development effort (read: cost). Since I figured out a way to cram 8 Jrs into a box (at half the cost and 1/4 the volume of such) we will finally see how many people were just talking smack.


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## rochesterricer (Jan 5, 2011)

Wow, I didn't realize DC and AC controllers were so different that the costs were so far apart. That stinks 

Kinda makes me wonder how Netgain plans to make it work, since I don't get the impression they would want to do it with a product that expensive.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Tesseract said:


> BTW - Curtis/HPEV had a booth at EVCCON so I took the opportunity to ask them why they haven't yet made a higher power version of their otherwise well-regarded 1238 controller? They all looked sort of sheepish and then one of the guys there admitted that it wasn't any technical obstacle, just a lack of interest in pursuing another "couple hundred sales on top of 10,000 or so".


At one time I was told by someone at Curtis, who may or may not have known what they were talking about, that a higher voltage controller would take a redesign since they were at the limits of the MOSFETS they were using. As for sales volumes they did recently come out with the higher 650 amp version of the 1238, and I really doubt that is going to generate thousands of sales from the forklift crowd. Also they are supposed to be working on a 144V version anyway, or were you talking about something even higher voltage than that?


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## Qer (May 7, 2008)

rochesterricer said:


> Wow, I didn't realize DC and AC controllers were so different that the costs were so far apart. That stinks


Well, motors can be ROUGHLY divided in three groups (and if I get this wrong I expect Major to correct me  ):



Series wound and permanent magnet DC. RPM is roughly proportional to voltage and torque roughly to current.Pro: Relatively simple software to control the motor, at least as long as nothing goes wrong. No matching between motor and controller really needed. Con: Not really the best solution for regen, even if it's physically possible.
SepEx: Pretty much as above, but the field is separatedly controlled (hence the name) which increases RPM and do some other funky stuff with the laws of physics. Pro: Much better at regen and very easy to reverse rotation (just flip the field). Con: More complicated to handle since the controller must have hardware to handle the (low current) field and also a field map in software that match the motor.
AC, BLDC and other brusless motors: No mechanical switching of windings in the rotor which means that the software must control the rotation by "moving" the magnetic field in the different windings to give the desired torque, speed etc. Pro: No brushes, sealed construction, good regen, easy to reverse. Con: Motor and controller needs to be closely matched which is the reason you most of the time see motor and controller sold as a set. Needs 6 transistors (or groups of) instead of 1 (for series wound/PM) and those give a LOT less bang for the buck compared to the DC case. Also, the demands for the software gets a lot higher with real time demands and complicated trigonometric math meaning the controller needs a serious CPU rather than a small little microcontroller.

The complexity of an AC-contoller in hardware is maybe not that much more than for a DC-controller (except, of course, that you need 6 transistors instead of 1) but the complexity of the software is an entirely different story. The Open ReVolt-controller uses a simple little 8 bit AVR microcontroller to handle everything, a comparable AC controller would need something much more powerful to do a good job.

Of course, you could "cheat" for example by using tables to save processing power but I doubt the result would be very good. At least not good enough to satisfy me and Jeffrey...


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## Bowser330 (Jun 15, 2008)

Update on dual comm Warp11HV......


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## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

Okay, things are changing by the minute. The new motors "should" come with dual comm's with stronger spring and Helwig brushes. The big decision is the splined shafts, we need them, Warfield is starting to bend in our direction. In the end I think George will get us the racing motors we need. I have faith! 

These new motors will be the strongest most powerful DC motors Warfield has ever produced. Welcome to a new era!


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