# [EVDL] Range



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

What was the temp outside when your range was reduced. This winter I found my max range reduced by approximately 75% compared to the summer. 

Barry 
www.justanotherevconversion.blogspot.com
New Hope, PA
-----Original Message-----
From: "Pestka, Dennis J" <[email protected]>
Date: Mon, 12 Apr 2010 08:45:55 
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List<[email protected]>
Subject: [EVDL] Range

I've been talking with a few individuals about this, but I thought I'd
throw it out to the list.

My pack voltage is nominal 156V, consisting of (13) Odyssey PC1750
batteries for ~ 11,700 Wh.
After charging, it always sits at ~ 168.5V.
The nearest town to me is about 8 miles. I've driven this round trip of
16 miles many times, and based on my overall pack voltage when
completed, it usually showed me at 161V to 161.5V which is ~ 65% DOD.
A few spreadsheet models I developed showed ~ 20 miles @ 50% DOD, so
everything seemed to be performing as I would have thought. 
This also agrees with my Emeter data of an average ~ 280 to 285 Wh per
mile.
Based on this, I thought I may be able to push it 30 miles, 80% DOD once
in a while, and not deplete the life of my batteries.

A few weeks ago I tried to push my range a little further, and at ~ 22
miles my pack completely died.
The voltage was sagging as normal on hills, 152V - 158V, and then all
of a sudden, it fell off the cliff, less than 100V.
The one time I was able to limp home after waiting a few hours. The
other time I had to be towed, (Extremely embarrassing).

This past winter the truck sat for ~ 6 months while I removed and had
the transmission repaired.
Now it has me worried, confused, and frustrated about what my true range
is.

My Questions:

- Did I never have more than ~ 20 mile range. (Never pushed it past ~
16 miles before I had the transmission repaired).
- Did something happen to the batteries while it sat for 6 months. (I
made sure that the pack stayed charged).
- Is the rebuilt transmission causing more resistance ?
- Something else ?

Looking for a step by step plan on the best way to diagnose this
problem.


Thanks for any help you can give me;
Dennis 
Elsberry, MO 
http://www.evalbum.com/1366 


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Hi Barry, an' EVerybody;

Range? You bet! Goes to hell, BELOW the 30's! When spring arrived a few 
weaks ago, my range went up so much I was surprised! I have been doing close 
to 100 miles in a day, by charging DURING the day. I've always said your EV 
is only as good as it's charger!Shameless Plug for Manzanita Micro, Thanks 
Rich! for the Charger! Pumping in 35 amps from my 240 volt garage outlet , 
as much as possable during your day, sure sturrs up the badd-eries, and your 
range goes up! What IS gratifying is the small, 5-to 10 volt drop on the 
highway, at 100-125 amps at 120 volts on the freeway! Of course I sOLDERED 
ALL y connections, so very lirttle voltage sag, in WARM weather! When it was 
COLD, 15-20 degreez, My range was iffy, just going to the Stupermarket, a 15 
mile RT with my creramic heater on, 10, amps I was lucky to creep home!Last 
nite I did a 52 mile RT to New Haven, but FOUNDa nice juicy outlit in the 
parking lot, across from the theater ! It charged at 10 amps for about 3 
hours, juicing me up for the run home, at 60-65 on the Turnpike!

Yes, led acid badderies SUCK! I'm being polite, on a family type forum! 
HOPE the Lithiums do better? Was too lazy to insulate the battery boxes. In 
Canada the guys insulate and heat the batteries, so they STILL have range. 
Here, IF I kept them sealed up they would overheat in CT's Tropical 
summers!I found THAT out! BUT by just leaving car uncharged overniite they 
would cool down.

YMMV?

Bob
----- Original Message ----- 
From: <[email protected]>
To: "EVDL" <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, April 12, 2010 10:07 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Range


> What was the temp outside when your range was reduced. This winter I found 
> my max range reduced by approximately 75% compared to the summer.
>
> Barry
> www.justanotherevconversion.blogspot.com
> New Hope, PA
> -----Original Message-----
> From: "Pestka, Dennis J" <[email protected]>
> Date: Mon, 12 Apr 2010 08:45:55
> To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List<[email protected]>
> Subject: [EVDL] Range
>
> I've been talking with a few individuals about this, but I thought I'd
> throw it out to the list.
>
> My pack voltage is nominal 156V, consisting of (13) Odyssey PC1750
> batteries for ~ 11,700 Wh.
> After charging, it always sits at ~ 168.5V.
> The nearest town to me is about 8 miles. I've driven this round trip of
> 16 miles many times, and based on my overall pack voltage when
> completed, it usually showed me at 161V to 161.5V which is ~ 65% DOD.
> A few spreadsheet models I developed showed ~ 20 miles @ 50% DOD, so
> everything seemed to be performing as I would have thought.
> This also agrees with my Emeter data of an average ~ 280 to 285 Wh per
> mile.
> Based on this, I thought I may be able to push it 30 miles, 80% DOD once
> in a while, and not deplete the life of my batteries.
>
> A few weeks ago I tried to push my range a little further, and at ~ 22
> miles my pack completely died.
> The voltage was sagging as normal on hills, 152V - 158V, and then all
> of a sudden, it fell off the cliff, less than 100V.
> The one time I was able to limp home after waiting a few hours. The
> other time I had to be towed, (Extremely embarrassing).
>
> This past winter the truck sat for ~ 6 months while I removed and had
> the transmission repaired.
> Now it has me worried, confused, and frustrated about what my true range
> is.
>
> My Questions:
>
> - Did I never have more than ~ 20 mile range. (Never pushed it past ~
> 16 miles before I had the transmission repaired).
> - Did something happen to the batteries while it sat for 6 months. (I
> made sure that the pack stayed charged).
> - Is the rebuilt transmission causing more resistance ?
> - Something else ?
>
> Looking for a step by step plan on the best way to diagnose this
> problem.
>
>
> Thanks for any help you can give me;
> Dennis
> Elsberry, MO
> http://www.evalbum.com/1366
>
>
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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Hello Dennis,

When storing batteries for that long, it is best to put a maintainer voltage 
on it. You would have to go to a battery shop and test the voltage of a 
battery maintainer for your type of battery.

Then adjust your on-board battery charger for that voltage. I had one 
maintainer on a ICE exotic sports car that was store in a box inside a 
building since 1975. The battery was a deep cycle Die Hard and when I 
remove the car, it started right up.

It is best to super insulated your battery box. I am using two layers of 2 
inch foam which is also cover by a foam back marine carpet. The battery box 
sets in a enclose pickup box with a trunk like seal. Even setting outside 
for four hours at 35 below, the batteries never got below 65 degrees.

I always charge the batteries just before I leave or may do a bulk charge 
the nite before and finish charge before I leave. I can also preheat the 
cab and batteries with the KAT's battery blanket with raises the battery 
temperature another 10 to 15 degrees about a hour before I leave. This 
method will increase the range.

This winter, the maximum distance I had to travel was 9.8 miles all in town 
and sometime pushing through a foot of snow with a 6860 lb EV going up steep 
hills using twice the watt hrs then in summer at a ambient temperature of 80 
F.

For this rig, I am carrying over 45kwh battery pack which is reduce to about 
35kwh for a 10 mile run or about 1kwh per mile in these conditions is still 
above 75 SOC.

Roland


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Pestka, Dennis J" <[email protected]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, April 12, 2010 6:45 AM
Subject: [EVDL] Range


> I've been talking with a few individuals about this, but I thought I'd
> throw it out to the list.
>
> My pack voltage is nominal 156V, consisting of (13) Odyssey PC1750
> batteries for ~ 11,700 Wh.
> After charging, it always sits at ~ 168.5V.
> The nearest town to me is about 8 miles. I've driven this round trip of
> 16 miles many times, and based on my overall pack voltage when
> completed, it usually showed me at 161V to 161.5V which is ~ 65% DOD.
> A few spreadsheet models I developed showed ~ 20 miles @ 50% DOD, so
> everything seemed to be performing as I would have thought.
> This also agrees with my Emeter data of an average ~ 280 to 285 Wh per
> mile.
> Based on this, I thought I may be able to push it 30 miles, 80% DOD once
> in a while, and not deplete the life of my batteries.
>
> A few weeks ago I tried to push my range a little further, and at ~ 22
> miles my pack completely died.
> The voltage was sagging as normal on hills, 152V - 158V, and then all
> of a sudden, it fell off the cliff, less than 100V.
> The one time I was able to limp home after waiting a few hours. The
> other time I had to be towed, (Extremely embarrassing).
>
> This past winter the truck sat for ~ 6 months while I removed and had
> the transmission repaired.
> Now it has me worried, confused, and frustrated about what my true range
> is.
>
> My Questions:
>
> - Did I never have more than ~ 20 mile range. (Never pushed it past ~
> 16 miles before I had the transmission repaired).
> - Did something happen to the batteries while it sat for 6 months. (I
> made sure that the pack stayed charged).
> - Is the rebuilt transmission causing more resistance ?
> - Something else ?
>
> Looking for a step by step plan on the best way to diagnose this
> problem.
>
>
> Thanks for any help you can give me;
> Dennis
> Elsberry, MO
> http://www.evalbum.com/1366
>
>
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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

I'm not sure that the outside temperature was my problem.
It was ~ 60-70 deg F when I had the first meltdown.
I'll keep pushing my range while keeping an eye on my total Wh's used.
What I'm afraid is that long before I reach 80% of my DOD, which should
be ~ 9000 Wh's, I'll be dead in the water.
Just can't push it so far that I have to be towed home again.

Thanks;
Dennis 
Elsberry, MO 
http://www.evalbum.com/1366 



-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] 
Sent: Monday, April 12, 2010 9:08 AM
To: EVDL
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Range

What was the temp outside when your range was reduced. This winter I
found my max range reduced by approximately 75% compared to the summer. 

Barry
www.justanotherevconversion.blogspot.com
New Hope, PA
-----Original Message-----
From: "Pestka, Dennis J" <[email protected]>
Date: Mon, 12 Apr 2010 08:45:55
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List<[email protected]>
Subject: [EVDL] Range

I've been talking with a few individuals about this, but I thought I'd
throw it out to the list.

My pack voltage is nominal 156V, consisting of (13) Odyssey PC1750
batteries for ~ 11,700 Wh.
After charging, it always sits at ~ 168.5V.
The nearest town to me is about 8 miles. I've driven this round trip of
16 miles many times, and based on my overall pack voltage when
completed, it usually showed me at 161V to 161.5V which is ~ 65% DOD.
A few spreadsheet models I developed showed ~ 20 miles @ 50% DOD, so
everything seemed to be performing as I would have thought. 
This also agrees with my Emeter data of an average ~ 280 to 285 Wh per
mile.
Based on this, I thought I may be able to push it 30 miles, 80% DOD once
in a while, and not deplete the life of my batteries.

A few weeks ago I tried to push my range a little further, and at ~ 22
miles my pack completely died.
The voltage was sagging as normal on hills, 152V - 158V, and then all
of a sudden, it fell off the cliff, less than 100V.
The one time I was able to limp home after waiting a few hours. The
other time I had to be towed, (Extremely embarrassing).

This past winter the truck sat for ~ 6 months while I removed and had
the transmission repaired.
Now it has me worried, confused, and frustrated about what my true range
is.

My Questions:

- Did I never have more than ~ 20 mile range. (Never pushed it past ~
16 miles before I had the transmission repaired).
- Did something happen to the batteries while it sat for 6 months. (I
made sure that the pack stayed charged).
- Is the rebuilt transmission causing more resistance ?
- Something else ?

Looking for a step by step plan on the best way to diagnose this
problem.


Thanks for any help you can give me;
Dennis 
Elsberry, MO 
http://www.evalbum.com/1366 


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

It may be the cold,
but it may also be a single battery that has lost capacity.
Did you measure battery voltages?
Best way is to measure under load, so you can see which
battery is sagging or even reversing!
I had a pack where a few batteries were reversed once which
lead to internal damage and lower capacity, so they were
empty even quicker next time and reversed again....
I ended up with a pack with only 10 miles range in the end,
no matter how much I (over-) charged the failing batteries,
as the repeated reversals had some cells damaged enough
that instead of 110Ah they could not hold more than 10Ah.
When cells are reversed, they will give a large voltage drop
and you can easily find them by feeling batteries for warmer
sections, that are the failing cells which have turned into
energy sinks.

But if the issue is simply cold batteries and all of them
are sagging equally, then that is the cause of your low
range in winter.
I know someone who, despite driving and charging every day,
had to garage his EV truck to avoid the worst range drop
in the morning - even avoiding him to maintain speed at
the freeway.

Hope this helps,

Cor van de Water
Director HW & Systems Architecture Group
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
Email: [email protected] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [email protected]
Tel: +1 408 383 7626 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Tel: +91 (040)23117400 x203 XoIP: +31877841130

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On
Behalf Of Pestka, Dennis J
Sent: Monday, April 12, 2010 7:16 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: [EVDL] Range

I've been talking with a few individuals about this, but I thought I'd
throw it out to the list.

My pack voltage is nominal 156V, consisting of (13) Odyssey PC1750
batteries for ~ 11,700 Wh.
After charging, it always sits at ~ 168.5V.
The nearest town to me is about 8 miles. I've driven this round trip of
16 miles many times, and based on my overall pack voltage when
completed, it usually showed me at 161V to 161.5V which is ~ 65% DOD.
A few spreadsheet models I developed showed ~ 20 miles @ 50% DOD, so
everything seemed to be performing as I would have thought. 
This also agrees with my Emeter data of an average ~ 280 to 285 Wh per
mile.
Based on this, I thought I may be able to push it 30 miles, 80% DOD once
in a while, and not deplete the life of my batteries.

A few weeks ago I tried to push my range a little further, and at ~ 22
miles my pack completely died.
The voltage was sagging as normal on hills, 152V - 158V, and then all
of a sudden, it fell off the cliff, less than 100V.
The one time I was able to limp home after waiting a few hours. The
other time I had to be towed, (Extremely embarrassing).

This past winter the truck sat for ~ 6 months while I removed and had
the transmission repaired.
Now it has me worried, confused, and frustrated about what my true range
is.

My Questions:

- Did I never have more than ~ 20 mile range. (Never pushed it past ~
16 miles before I had the transmission repaired).
- Did something happen to the batteries while it sat for 6 months. (I
made sure that the pack stayed charged).
- Is the rebuilt transmission causing more resistance ?
- Something else ?

Looking for a step by step plan on the best way to diagnose this
problem.


Thanks for any help you can give me;
Dennis 
Elsberry, MO 
http://www.evalbum.com/1366 


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Cor;

My truck stays in a well insulated garage, and
the day it happened, it was 60 - 70 deg F outside.

All the batteries are sitting after charging @ ~ 12.85V.
I did a load test on each individual battery, and they all checked out
OK.
My load tester just has a green range for OK, so I'm not sure what load
I was putting on each.
I think is was ~ 75A held for 10 seconds.
Right after the test they had each were sitting @ 12.2V to 12.0V.
Within 20 minutes, they were all back to ~ 12.85V.

What I don't know, is if they truly have a 75Ah capacity as name plated.
11,700 total Wh's
If they did, at my documented 280 - 300 Wh's per mile, I should be able
to do ~ 20 miles @ 50% DOD.
Right after this ~ 22 miles, my pack just drops off the cliff, and is
completely depleted.



Thanks;
Dennis 
Elsberry, MO 
http://www.evalbum.com/1366 







-----Original Message-----
From: Cor van de Water [mailto:[email protected]] 
Sent: Wednesday, April 14, 2010 12:06 AM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Range

It may be the cold,
but it may also be a single battery that has lost capacity.
Did you measure battery voltages?
Best way is to measure under load, so you can see which battery is
sagging or even reversing!
I had a pack where a few batteries were reversed once which lead to
internal damage and lower capacity, so they were empty even quicker next
time and reversed again....
I ended up with a pack with only 10 miles range in the end, no matter
how much I (over-) charged the failing batteries, as the repeated
reversals had some cells damaged enough that instead of 110Ah they could
not hold more than 10Ah.
When cells are reversed, they will give a large voltage drop and you can
easily find them by feeling batteries for warmer sections, that are the
failing cells which have turned into energy sinks.

But if the issue is simply cold batteries and all of them are sagging
equally, then that is the cause of your low range in winter.
I know someone who, despite driving and charging every day, had to
garage his EV truck to avoid the worst range drop in the morning - even
avoiding him to maintain speed at the freeway.

Hope this helps,

Cor van de Water
Director HW & Systems Architecture Group Proxim Wireless Corporation
http://www.proxim.com
Email: [email protected] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [email protected]
Tel: +1 408 383 7626 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Tel: +91 (040)23117400 x203 XoIP: +31877841130

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On
Behalf Of Pestka, Dennis J
Sent: Monday, April 12, 2010 7:16 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: [EVDL] Range

I've been talking with a few individuals about this, but I thought I'd
throw it out to the list.

My pack voltage is nominal 156V, consisting of (13) Odyssey PC1750
batteries for ~ 11,700 Wh.
After charging, it always sits at ~ 168.5V.
The nearest town to me is about 8 miles. I've driven this round trip of
16 miles many times, and based on my overall pack voltage when
completed, it usually showed me at 161V to 161.5V which is ~ 65% DOD.
A few spreadsheet models I developed showed ~ 20 miles @ 50% DOD, so
everything seemed to be performing as I would have thought. 
This also agrees with my Emeter data of an average ~ 280 to 285 Wh per
mile.
Based on this, I thought I may be able to push it 30 miles, 80% DOD once
in a while, and not deplete the life of my batteries.

A few weeks ago I tried to push my range a little further, and at ~ 22
miles my pack completely died.
The voltage was sagging as normal on hills, 152V - 158V, and then all
of a sudden, it fell off the cliff, less than 100V.
The one time I was able to limp home after waiting a few hours. The
other time I had to be towed, (Extremely embarrassing).

This past winter the truck sat for ~ 6 months while I removed and had
the transmission repaired.
Now it has me worried, confused, and frustrated about what my true range
is.

My Questions:

- Did I never have more than ~ 20 mile range. (Never pushed it past ~
16 miles before I had the transmission repaired).
- Did something happen to the batteries while it sat for 6 months. (I
made sure that the pack stayed charged).
- Is the rebuilt transmission causing more resistance ?
- Something else ?

Looking for a step by step plan on the best way to diagnose this
problem.


Thanks for any help you can give me;
Dennis 
Elsberry, MO 
http://www.evalbum.com/1366 


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Hi Dennis,

Do you have an Ah counter at all?

AGMs give really good cranking amps output even when their Ah capacity has
fallen.

It's the latter number we're usually interested in.

I would be surprised if the real capacity at EV discharge rates for a "75Ah"
Agm were to be greater that 40Ah for brand new just broken in battery.

Matt 

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf
Of Pestka, Dennis J
Sent: Thursday, 15 April 2010 5:54 AM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Range

Cor;

My truck stays in a well insulated garage, and the day it happened, it was
60 - 70 deg F outside.

All the batteries are sitting after charging @ ~ 12.85V.
I did a load test on each individual battery, and they all checked out OK.
My load tester just has a green range for OK, so I'm not sure what load I
was putting on each.
I think is was ~ 75A held for 10 seconds.
Right after the test they had each were sitting @ 12.2V to 12.0V.
Within 20 minutes, they were all back to ~ 12.85V.

What I don't know, is if they truly have a 75Ah capacity as name plated.
11,700 total Wh's
If they did, at my documented 280 - 300 Wh's per mile, I should be able to
do ~ 20 miles @ 50% DOD.
Right after this ~ 22 miles, my pack just drops off the cliff, and is
completely depleted.



Thanks;
Dennis 
Elsberry, MO 
http://www.evalbum.com/1366 







-----Original Message-----
From: Cor van de Water [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: Wednesday, April 14, 2010 12:06 AM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Range

It may be the cold,
but it may also be a single battery that has lost capacity.
Did you measure battery voltages?
Best way is to measure under load, so you can see which battery is sagging
or even reversing!
I had a pack where a few batteries were reversed once which lead to internal
damage and lower capacity, so they were empty even quicker next time and
reversed again....
I ended up with a pack with only 10 miles range in the end, no matter how
much I (over-) charged the failing batteries, as the repeated reversals had
some cells damaged enough that instead of 110Ah they could not hold more
than 10Ah.
When cells are reversed, they will give a large voltage drop and you can
easily find them by feeling batteries for warmer sections, that are the
failing cells which have turned into energy sinks.

But if the issue is simply cold batteries and all of them are sagging
equally, then that is the cause of your low range in winter.
I know someone who, despite driving and charging every day, had to garage
his EV truck to avoid the worst range drop in the morning - even avoiding
him to maintain speed at the freeway.

Hope this helps,

Cor van de Water
Director HW & Systems Architecture Group Proxim Wireless Corporation
http://www.proxim.com
Email: [email protected] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [email protected]
Tel: +1 408 383 7626 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Tel: +91 (040)23117400 x203 XoIP: +31877841130

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf
Of Pestka, Dennis J
Sent: Monday, April 12, 2010 7:16 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: [EVDL] Range

I've been talking with a few individuals about this, but I thought I'd throw
it out to the list.

My pack voltage is nominal 156V, consisting of (13) Odyssey PC1750 batteries
for ~ 11,700 Wh.
After charging, it always sits at ~ 168.5V.
The nearest town to me is about 8 miles. I've driven this round trip of
16 miles many times, and based on my overall pack voltage when completed, it
usually showed me at 161V to 161.5V which is ~ 65% DOD.
A few spreadsheet models I developed showed ~ 20 miles @ 50% DOD, so
everything seemed to be performing as I would have thought. 
This also agrees with my Emeter data of an average ~ 280 to 285 Wh per
mile.
Based on this, I thought I may be able to push it 30 miles, 80% DOD once in
a while, and not deplete the life of my batteries.

A few weeks ago I tried to push my range a little further, and at ~ 22 miles
my pack completely died.
The voltage was sagging as normal on hills, 152V - 158V, and then all of a
sudden, it fell off the cliff, less than 100V.
The one time I was able to limp home after waiting a few hours. The other
time I had to be towed, (Extremely embarrassing).

This past winter the truck sat for ~ 6 months while I removed and had the
transmission repaired.
Now it has me worried, confused, and frustrated about what my true range is.

My Questions:

- Did I never have more than ~ 20 mile range. (Never pushed it past ~
16 miles before I had the transmission repaired).
- Did something happen to the batteries while it sat for 6 months. (I made
sure that the pack stayed charged).
- Is the rebuilt transmission causing more resistance ?
- Something else ?

Looking for a step by step plan on the best way to diagnose this problem.


Thanks for any help you can give me;
Dennis 
Elsberry, MO 
http://www.evalbum.com/1366 


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Hi Dennis,

It may be that Peukert takes its toll on your range,
let's do some calculations on your battery pack:
13 x PC1750 which has a 20h capacity of 68Ah =10,608Wh nominal,
but at EV type loads in hills, which means max half an hour
driving with half of that up and half downhill, you should
look at the 15 min discharge capacity and then you see 41Ah
at 164A load (6396Wh):
http://www.odysseybatteries.com/battery/pc1700_65.htm 
But it may be that your hill climbing requires more than 300A
or even 500A which means that you can count the minutes that
your battery can supply this current on the fingers of one hand...

The 6400Wh "hill capacity" divided by 300Wh/mi gives 21 miles!

So yes - if you live in a flat country and you drive your EV
for 20 miles constant speed at a current well below 100A then
you can expect around 50Ah usable capacity to 100%DOD so a max
range of about 156V x 50Ah / 300Wh/mi = 26 miles.
Driving rather slowly and optimizing your vehicle (low weight,
no brake drag, zero toe-in, max time pressure) you may get down
to 250Wh/mi or better and your range becomes more than 31 miles.

I do not think there is anything wrong with your pack, it is
just that your expectations were too high for not taking the
effect from Peukert on Lead-Acid batteries into account.
BTW, I expect that immediately after charging your batteries
are at a higher voltage than 12.85 and this surface charge
will slowly disappear over time or with some load. You say your
batteries return to 12.85 and stay over 12V with a load test
so they are OK and from the calculations the capacity seems
to be the same as in the spec under EV load conditions.
Immediately after charge I have seen my AGMs stay as high as 
13.25V which will slowly bleed down.

Hope this helps.

Cor van de Water
Director HW & Systems Architecture Group
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
Email: [email protected] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [email protected]
Tel: +1 408 383 7626 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Tel: +91 (040)23117400 x203 XoIP: +31877841130

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On
Behalf Of Pestka, Dennis J
Sent: Thursday, April 15, 2010 3:24 AM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Range

Cor;

My truck stays in a well insulated garage, and the day it happened, it
was 60 - 70 deg F outside.

All the batteries are sitting after charging @ ~ 12.85V.
I did a load test on each individual battery, and they all checked out
OK.
My load tester just has a green range for OK, so I'm not sure what load
I was putting on each.
I think is was ~ 75A held for 10 seconds.
Right after the test they had each were sitting @ 12.2V to 12.0V.
Within 20 minutes, they were all back to ~ 12.85V.

What I don't know, is if they truly have a 75Ah capacity as name plated.
11,700 total Wh's
If they did, at my documented 280 - 300 Wh's per mile, I should be able
to do ~ 20 miles @ 50% DOD.
Right after this ~ 22 miles, my pack just drops off the cliff, and is
completely depleted.



Thanks;
Dennis 
Elsberry, MO 
http://www.evalbum.com/1366 







-----Original Message-----
From: Cor van de Water [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: Wednesday, April 14, 2010 12:06 AM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Range

It may be the cold,
but it may also be a single battery that has lost capacity.
Did you measure battery voltages?
Best way is to measure under load, so you can see which battery is
sagging or even reversing!
I had a pack where a few batteries were reversed once which lead to
internal damage and lower capacity, so they were empty even quicker next
time and reversed again....
I ended up with a pack with only 10 miles range in the end, no matter
how much I (over-) charged the failing batteries, as the repeated
reversals had some cells damaged enough that instead of 110Ah they could
not hold more than 10Ah.
When cells are reversed, they will give a large voltage drop and you can
easily find them by feeling batteries for warmer sections, that are the
failing cells which have turned into energy sinks.

But if the issue is simply cold batteries and all of them are sagging
equally, then that is the cause of your low range in winter.
I know someone who, despite driving and charging every day, had to
garage his EV truck to avoid the worst range drop in the morning - even
avoiding him to maintain speed at the freeway.

Hope this helps,

Cor van de Water
Director HW & Systems Architecture Group Proxim Wireless Corporation
http://www.proxim.com
Email: [email protected] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [email protected]
Tel: +1 408 383 7626 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Tel: +91 (040)23117400 x203 XoIP: +31877841130

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On
Behalf Of Pestka, Dennis J
Sent: Monday, April 12, 2010 7:16 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: [EVDL] Range

I've been talking with a few individuals about this, but I thought I'd
throw it out to the list.

My pack voltage is nominal 156V, consisting of (13) Odyssey PC1750
batteries for ~ 11,700 Wh.
After charging, it always sits at ~ 168.5V.
The nearest town to me is about 8 miles. I've driven this round trip of
16 miles many times, and based on my overall pack voltage when
completed, it usually showed me at 161V to 161.5V which is ~ 65% DOD.
A few spreadsheet models I developed showed ~ 20 miles @ 50% DOD, so
everything seemed to be performing as I would have thought. 
This also agrees with my Emeter data of an average ~ 280 to 285 Wh per
mile.
Based on this, I thought I may be able to push it 30 miles, 80% DOD once
in a while, and not deplete the life of my batteries.

A few weeks ago I tried to push my range a little further, and at ~ 22
miles my pack completely died.
The voltage was sagging as normal on hills, 152V - 158V, and then all
of a sudden, it fell off the cliff, less than 100V.
The one time I was able to limp home after waiting a few hours. The
other time I had to be towed, (Extremely embarrassing).

This past winter the truck sat for ~ 6 months while I removed and had
the transmission repaired.
Now it has me worried, confused, and frustrated about what my true range
is.

My Questions:

- Did I never have more than ~ 20 mile range. (Never pushed it past ~
16 miles before I had the transmission repaired).
- Did something happen to the batteries while it sat for 6 months. (I
made sure that the pack stayed charged).
- Is the rebuilt transmission causing more resistance ?
- Something else ?

Looking for a step by step plan on the best way to diagnose this
problem.


Thanks for any help you can give me;
Dennis 
Elsberry, MO 
http://www.evalbum.com/1366 


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----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

When I looked again, I saw that the link I gave points to
battery spec for the 1700 even though the title says 1750
so I looked up the 1750 and it has a slightly *lower*
reserve capacity, which means that the Ahs should not be
higher than I gave here - but the 1750 page does not show
the discharge details that the 1700 page has... 

Anyway, it seems to be close enough to indicate you get
what you can expect from your batteries and pack size.

Success,

Cor van de Water
Director HW & Systems Architecture Group
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
Email: [email protected] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [email protected]
Tel: +1 408 383 7626 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Tel: +91 (040)23117400 x203 XoIP: +31877841130

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On
Behalf Of Cor van de Water
Sent: Saturday, April 17, 2010 5:51 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Range

Hi Dennis,

It may be that Peukert takes its toll on your range, let's do some
calculations on your battery pack:
13 x PC1750 which has a 20h capacity of 68Ah =10,608Wh nominal, but at
EV type loads in hills, which means max half an hour driving with half
of that up and half downhill, you should look at the 15 min discharge
capacity and then you see 41Ah at 164A load (6396Wh):
http://www.odysseybatteries.com/battery/pc1700_65.htm
But it may be that your hill climbing requires more than 300A or even
500A which means that you can count the minutes that your battery can
supply this current on the fingers of one hand...

The 6400Wh "hill capacity" divided by 300Wh/mi gives 21 miles!

So yes - if you live in a flat country and you drive your EV for 20
miles constant speed at a current well below 100A then you can expect
around 50Ah usable capacity to 100%DOD so a max range of about 156V x
50Ah / 300Wh/mi = 26 miles.
Driving rather slowly and optimizing your vehicle (low weight, no brake
drag, zero toe-in, max time pressure) you may get down to 250Wh/mi or
better and your range becomes more than 31 miles.

I do not think there is anything wrong with your pack, it is just that
your expectations were too high for not taking the effect from Peukert
on Lead-Acid batteries into account.
BTW, I expect that immediately after charging your batteries are at a
higher voltage than 12.85 and this surface charge will slowly disappear
over time or with some load. You say your batteries return to 12.85 and
stay over 12V with a load test so they are OK and from the calculations
the capacity seems to be the same as in the spec under EV load
conditions.
Immediately after charge I have seen my AGMs stay as high as 13.25V
which will slowly bleed down.

Hope this helps.

Cor van de Water
Director HW & Systems Architecture Group Proxim Wireless Corporation
http://www.proxim.com
Email: [email protected] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [email protected]
Tel: +1 408 383 7626 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Tel: +91 (040)23117400 x203 XoIP: +31877841130

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On
Behalf Of Pestka, Dennis J
Sent: Thursday, April 15, 2010 3:24 AM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Range

Cor;

My truck stays in a well insulated garage, and the day it happened, it
was 60 - 70 deg F outside.

All the batteries are sitting after charging @ ~ 12.85V.
I did a load test on each individual battery, and they all checked out
OK.
My load tester just has a green range for OK, so I'm not sure what load
I was putting on each.
I think is was ~ 75A held for 10 seconds.
Right after the test they had each were sitting @ 12.2V to 12.0V.
Within 20 minutes, they were all back to ~ 12.85V.

What I don't know, is if they truly have a 75Ah capacity as name plated.
11,700 total Wh's
If they did, at my documented 280 - 300 Wh's per mile, I should be able
to do ~ 20 miles @ 50% DOD.
Right after this ~ 22 miles, my pack just drops off the cliff, and is
completely depleted.



Thanks;
Dennis 
Elsberry, MO 
http://www.evalbum.com/1366 







-----Original Message-----
From: Cor van de Water [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: Wednesday, April 14, 2010 12:06 AM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Range

It may be the cold,
but it may also be a single battery that has lost capacity.
Did you measure battery voltages?
Best way is to measure under load, so you can see which battery is
sagging or even reversing!
I had a pack where a few batteries were reversed once which lead to
internal damage and lower capacity, so they were empty even quicker next
time and reversed again....
I ended up with a pack with only 10 miles range in the end, no matter
how much I (over-) charged the failing batteries, as the repeated
reversals had some cells damaged enough that instead of 110Ah they could
not hold more than 10Ah.
When cells are reversed, they will give a large voltage drop and you can
easily find them by feeling batteries for warmer sections, that are the
failing cells which have turned into energy sinks.

But if the issue is simply cold batteries and all of them are sagging
equally, then that is the cause of your low range in winter.
I know someone who, despite driving and charging every day, had to
garage his EV truck to avoid the worst range drop in the morning - even
avoiding him to maintain speed at the freeway.

Hope this helps,

Cor van de Water
Director HW & Systems Architecture Group Proxim Wireless Corporation
http://www.proxim.com
Email: [email protected] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [email protected]
Tel: +1 408 383 7626 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Tel: +91 (040)23117400 x203 XoIP: +31877841130

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On
Behalf Of Pestka, Dennis J
Sent: Monday, April 12, 2010 7:16 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: [EVDL] Range

I've been talking with a few individuals about this, but I thought I'd
throw it out to the list.

My pack voltage is nominal 156V, consisting of (13) Odyssey PC1750
batteries for ~ 11,700 Wh.
After charging, it always sits at ~ 168.5V.
The nearest town to me is about 8 miles. I've driven this round trip of
16 miles many times, and based on my overall pack voltage when
completed, it usually showed me at 161V to 161.5V which is ~ 65% DOD.
A few spreadsheet models I developed showed ~ 20 miles @ 50% DOD, so
everything seemed to be performing as I would have thought. 
This also agrees with my Emeter data of an average ~ 280 to 285 Wh per
mile.
Based on this, I thought I may be able to push it 30 miles, 80% DOD once
in a while, and not deplete the life of my batteries.

A few weeks ago I tried to push my range a little further, and at ~ 22
miles my pack completely died.
The voltage was sagging as normal on hills, 152V - 158V, and then all
of a sudden, it fell off the cliff, less than 100V.
The one time I was able to limp home after waiting a few hours. The
other time I had to be towed, (Extremely embarrassing).

This past winter the truck sat for ~ 6 months while I removed and had
the transmission repaired.
Now it has me worried, confused, and frustrated about what my true range
is.

My Questions:

- Did I never have more than ~ 20 mile range. (Never pushed it past ~
16 miles before I had the transmission repaired).
- Did something happen to the batteries while it sat for 6 months. (I
made sure that the pack stayed charged).
- Is the rebuilt transmission causing more resistance ?
- Something else ?

Looking for a step by step plan on the best way to diagnose this
problem.


Thanks for any help you can give me;
Dennis 
Elsberry, MO 
http://www.evalbum.com/1366 


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

I think you are over estimating the Amp hours of your Hawker 1700's.
I have 13 of the Hawker 2150's and can safely pull 50 Amp hours out,
which means I have about 7Kw and get a comfortable 20, maybe 30 mile
range with good driving. My guess would be that you could pul 40 Amp
hours out, max on a 1 hour discharge. Do you have any kind of
regulators on these batteries?

Steve Clunn

--
Tomorrows Ride TODAY !
Visit our shop web page at: www.Greenshedconversions.com
or our online Parts Store at: www.Grassrootsev.com

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----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Matt;

I have an E-Meter, and have it set to record Kwhr's.
The last 5 trips have been ~ 280 - 290 Whr's per mile.
This fits right where I would have estimated.

I suspect that the total Ah is no where near the 75 Ah capacity.
What you said may be correct about the 40Ah.
Hopefully they will increase as I cycle them more. 

Thanks;
Dennis 
Elsberry, MO 
http://www.evalbum.com/1366 




-----Original Message-----
From: Matt Lacey [mailto:[email protected]] 
Sent: Saturday, April 17, 2010 3:35 AM
To: 'Electric Vehicle Discussion List'
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Range

Hi Dennis,

Do you have an Ah counter at all?

AGMs give really good cranking amps output even when their Ah capacity
has fallen.

It's the latter number we're usually interested in.

I would be surprised if the real capacity at EV discharge rates for a
"75Ah"
Agm were to be greater that 40Ah for brand new just broken in battery.

Matt 

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On
Behalf Of Pestka, Dennis J
Sent: Thursday, 15 April 2010 5:54 AM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Range

Cor;

My truck stays in a well insulated garage, and the day it happened, it
was 60 - 70 deg F outside.

All the batteries are sitting after charging @ ~ 12.85V.
I did a load test on each individual battery, and they all checked out
OK.
My load tester just has a green range for OK, so I'm not sure what load
I was putting on each.
I think is was ~ 75A held for 10 seconds.
Right after the test they had each were sitting @ 12.2V to 12.0V.
Within 20 minutes, they were all back to ~ 12.85V.

What I don't know, is if they truly have a 75Ah capacity as name plated.
11,700 total Wh's
If they did, at my documented 280 - 300 Wh's per mile, I should be able
to do ~ 20 miles @ 50% DOD.
Right after this ~ 22 miles, my pack just drops off the cliff, and is
completely depleted.



Thanks;
Dennis 
Elsberry, MO 
http://www.evalbum.com/1366 







-----Original Message-----
From: Cor van de Water [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: Wednesday, April 14, 2010 12:06 AM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Range

It may be the cold,
but it may also be a single battery that has lost capacity.
Did you measure battery voltages?
Best way is to measure under load, so you can see which battery is
sagging or even reversing!
I had a pack where a few batteries were reversed once which lead to
internal damage and lower capacity, so they were empty even quicker next
time and reversed again....
I ended up with a pack with only 10 miles range in the end, no matter
how much I (over-) charged the failing batteries, as the repeated
reversals had some cells damaged enough that instead of 110Ah they could
not hold more than 10Ah.
When cells are reversed, they will give a large voltage drop and you can
easily find them by feeling batteries for warmer sections, that are the
failing cells which have turned into energy sinks.

But if the issue is simply cold batteries and all of them are sagging
equally, then that is the cause of your low range in winter.
I know someone who, despite driving and charging every day, had to
garage his EV truck to avoid the worst range drop in the morning - even
avoiding him to maintain speed at the freeway.

Hope this helps,

Cor van de Water
Director HW & Systems Architecture Group Proxim Wireless Corporation
http://www.proxim.com
Email: [email protected] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [email protected]
Tel: +1 408 383 7626 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Tel: +91 (040)23117400 x203 XoIP: +31877841130

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On
Behalf Of Pestka, Dennis J
Sent: Monday, April 12, 2010 7:16 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: [EVDL] Range

I've been talking with a few individuals about this, but I thought I'd
throw it out to the list.

My pack voltage is nominal 156V, consisting of (13) Odyssey PC1750
batteries for ~ 11,700 Wh.
After charging, it always sits at ~ 168.5V.
The nearest town to me is about 8 miles. I've driven this round trip of
16 miles many times, and based on my overall pack voltage when
completed, it usually showed me at 161V to 161.5V which is ~ 65% DOD.
A few spreadsheet models I developed showed ~ 20 miles @ 50% DOD, so
everything seemed to be performing as I would have thought. 
This also agrees with my Emeter data of an average ~ 280 to 285 Wh per
mile.
Based on this, I thought I may be able to push it 30 miles, 80% DOD once
in a while, and not deplete the life of my batteries.

A few weeks ago I tried to push my range a little further, and at ~ 22
miles my pack completely died.
The voltage was sagging as normal on hills, 152V - 158V, and then all
of a sudden, it fell off the cliff, less than 100V.
The one time I was able to limp home after waiting a few hours. The
other time I had to be towed, (Extremely embarrassing).

This past winter the truck sat for ~ 6 months while I removed and had
the transmission repaired.
Now it has me worried, confused, and frustrated about what my true range
is.

My Questions:

- Did I never have more than ~ 20 mile range. (Never pushed it past ~
16 miles before I had the transmission repaired).
- Did something happen to the batteries while it sat for 6 months. (I
made sure that the pack stayed charged).
- Is the rebuilt transmission causing more resistance ?
- Something else ?

Looking for a step by step plan on the best way to diagnose this
problem.


Thanks for any help you can give me;
Dennis 
Elsberry, MO 
http://www.evalbum.com/1366 


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Thanks Cor;

That was a great explanation and analysis.
I suspect you are right on the money.

Looks like I may have to be satisfied with my present range, until I can
afford a set of Lithium's.


Thanks;
Dennis 
Elsberry, MO 
http://www.evalbum.com/1366 




-----Original Message-----
From: Cor van de Water [mailto:[email protected]] 
Sent: Saturday, April 17, 2010 7:21 AM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Range

Hi Dennis,

It may be that Peukert takes its toll on your range, let's do some
calculations on your battery pack:
13 x PC1750 which has a 20h capacity of 68Ah =10,608Wh nominal, but at
EV type loads in hills, which means max half an hour driving with half
of that up and half downhill, you should look at the 15 min discharge
capacity and then you see 41Ah at 164A load (6396Wh):
http://www.odysseybatteries.com/battery/pc1700_65.htm
But it may be that your hill climbing requires more than 300A or even
500A which means that you can count the minutes that your battery can
supply this current on the fingers of one hand...

The 6400Wh "hill capacity" divided by 300Wh/mi gives 21 miles!

So yes - if you live in a flat country and you drive your EV for 20
miles constant speed at a current well below 100A then you can expect
around 50Ah usable capacity to 100%DOD so a max range of about 156V x
50Ah / 300Wh/mi = 26 miles.
Driving rather slowly and optimizing your vehicle (low weight, no brake
drag, zero toe-in, max time pressure) you may get down to 250Wh/mi or
better and your range becomes more than 31 miles.

I do not think there is anything wrong with your pack, it is just that
your expectations were too high for not taking the effect from Peukert
on Lead-Acid batteries into account.
BTW, I expect that immediately after charging your batteries are at a
higher voltage than 12.85 and this surface charge will slowly disappear
over time or with some load. You say your batteries return to 12.85 and
stay over 12V with a load test so they are OK and from the calculations
the capacity seems to be the same as in the spec under EV load
conditions.
Immediately after charge I have seen my AGMs stay as high as 13.25V
which will slowly bleed down.

Hope this helps.

Cor van de Water
Director HW & Systems Architecture Group Proxim Wireless Corporation
http://www.proxim.com
Email: [email protected] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [email protected]
Tel: +1 408 383 7626 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Tel: +91 (040)23117400 x203 XoIP: +31877841130

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On
Behalf Of Pestka, Dennis J
Sent: Thursday, April 15, 2010 3:24 AM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Range

Cor;

My truck stays in a well insulated garage, and the day it happened, it
was 60 - 70 deg F outside.

All the batteries are sitting after charging @ ~ 12.85V.
I did a load test on each individual battery, and they all checked out
OK.
My load tester just has a green range for OK, so I'm not sure what load
I was putting on each.
I think is was ~ 75A held for 10 seconds.
Right after the test they had each were sitting @ 12.2V to 12.0V.
Within 20 minutes, they were all back to ~ 12.85V.

What I don't know, is if they truly have a 75Ah capacity as name plated.
11,700 total Wh's
If they did, at my documented 280 - 300 Wh's per mile, I should be able
to do ~ 20 miles @ 50% DOD.
Right after this ~ 22 miles, my pack just drops off the cliff, and is
completely depleted.



Thanks;
Dennis 
Elsberry, MO 
http://www.evalbum.com/1366 







-----Original Message-----
From: Cor van de Water [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: Wednesday, April 14, 2010 12:06 AM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Range

It may be the cold,
but it may also be a single battery that has lost capacity.
Did you measure battery voltages?
Best way is to measure under load, so you can see which battery is
sagging or even reversing!
I had a pack where a few batteries were reversed once which lead to
internal damage and lower capacity, so they were empty even quicker next
time and reversed again....
I ended up with a pack with only 10 miles range in the end, no matter
how much I (over-) charged the failing batteries, as the repeated
reversals had some cells damaged enough that instead of 110Ah they could
not hold more than 10Ah.
When cells are reversed, they will give a large voltage drop and you can
easily find them by feeling batteries for warmer sections, that are the
failing cells which have turned into energy sinks.

But if the issue is simply cold batteries and all of them are sagging
equally, then that is the cause of your low range in winter.
I know someone who, despite driving and charging every day, had to
garage his EV truck to avoid the worst range drop in the morning - even
avoiding him to maintain speed at the freeway.

Hope this helps,

Cor van de Water
Director HW & Systems Architecture Group Proxim Wireless Corporation
http://www.proxim.com
Email: [email protected] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [email protected]
Tel: +1 408 383 7626 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Tel: +91 (040)23117400 x203 XoIP: +31877841130

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On
Behalf Of Pestka, Dennis J
Sent: Monday, April 12, 2010 7:16 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: [EVDL] Range

I've been talking with a few individuals about this, but I thought I'd
throw it out to the list.

My pack voltage is nominal 156V, consisting of (13) Odyssey PC1750
batteries for ~ 11,700 Wh.
After charging, it always sits at ~ 168.5V.
The nearest town to me is about 8 miles. I've driven this round trip of
16 miles many times, and based on my overall pack voltage when
completed, it usually showed me at 161V to 161.5V which is ~ 65% DOD.
A few spreadsheet models I developed showed ~ 20 miles @ 50% DOD, so
everything seemed to be performing as I would have thought. 
This also agrees with my Emeter data of an average ~ 280 to 285 Wh per
mile.
Based on this, I thought I may be able to push it 30 miles, 80% DOD once
in a while, and not deplete the life of my batteries.

A few weeks ago I tried to push my range a little further, and at ~ 22
miles my pack completely died.
The voltage was sagging as normal on hills, 152V - 158V, and then all
of a sudden, it fell off the cliff, less than 100V.
The one time I was able to limp home after waiting a few hours. The
other time I had to be towed, (Extremely embarrassing).

This past winter the truck sat for ~ 6 months while I removed and had
the transmission repaired.
Now it has me worried, confused, and frustrated about what my true range
is.

My Questions:

- Did I never have more than ~ 20 mile range. (Never pushed it past ~
16 miles before I had the transmission repaired).
- Did something happen to the batteries while it sat for 6 months. (I
made sure that the pack stayed charged).
- Is the rebuilt transmission causing more resistance ?
- Something else ?

Looking for a step by step plan on the best way to diagnose this
problem.


Thanks for any help you can give me;
Dennis 
Elsberry, MO 
http://www.evalbum.com/1366 


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----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Cor;

You gave me a great explanation a while back on how the hilly area's
affect range with my AGM batteries.

Any idea on how Lithium's would be affected ?

Better, worse, same !


Thanks;
Dennis 
Elsberry, MO 
http://www.evalbum.com/1366 




-----Original Message-----
From: Cor van de Water [mailto:[email protected]] 
Sent: Saturday, April 17, 2010 7:21 AM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Range

Hi Dennis,

It may be that Peukert takes its toll on your range, let's do some
calculations on your battery pack:
13 x PC1750 which has a 20h capacity of 68Ah =10,608Wh nominal, but at
EV type loads in hills, which means max half an hour driving with half
of that up and half downhill, you should look at the 15 min discharge
capacity and then you see 41Ah at 164A load (6396Wh):
http://www.odysseybatteries.com/battery/pc1700_65.htm
But it may be that your hill climbing requires more than 300A or even
500A which means that you can count the minutes that your battery can
supply this current on the fingers of one hand...

The 6400Wh "hill capacity" divided by 300Wh/mi gives 21 miles!

So yes - if you live in a flat country and you drive your EV for 20
miles constant speed at a current well below 100A then you can expect
around 50Ah usable capacity to 100%DOD so a max range of about 156V x
50Ah / 300Wh/mi = 26 miles.
Driving rather slowly and optimizing your vehicle (low weight, no brake
drag, zero toe-in, max time pressure) you may get down to 250Wh/mi or
better and your range becomes more than 31 miles.

I do not think there is anything wrong with your pack, it is just that
your expectations were too high for not taking the effect from Peukert
on Lead-Acid batteries into account.
BTW, I expect that immediately after charging your batteries are at a
higher voltage than 12.85 and this surface charge will slowly disappear
over time or with some load. You say your batteries return to 12.85 and
stay over 12V with a load test so they are OK and from the calculations
the capacity seems to be the same as in the spec under EV load
conditions.
Immediately after charge I have seen my AGMs stay as high as 13.25V
which will slowly bleed down.

Hope this helps.

Cor van de Water
Director HW & Systems Architecture Group Proxim Wireless Corporation
http://www.proxim.com
Email: [email protected] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [email protected]
Tel: +1 408 383 7626 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Tel: +91 (040)23117400 x203 XoIP: +31877841130


_______________________________________________
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| Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
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----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Hi Dennis,

>From the data that I have seen about Lithiums, they will supply
almost exactly the same amount of Ahs whether discharged slow
or quickly, so there is almost no "Peukert" effect in them.

So, besides the power consumption (and losses) being higher
in hilly areas, especially in a DC EV without regen, the
Lithiums should deliver about the same capacity no matter 
whether discharged in bursts or continuous.

Hope this helps,

Cor van de Water
Director HW & Systems Architecture Group
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
Email: [email protected] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [email protected]
Tel: +1 408 383 7626 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Tel: +91 (040)23117400 x203 XoIP: +31877841130

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On
Behalf Of Pestka, Dennis J
Sent: Friday, June 25, 2010 9:57 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Range

Cor;

You gave me a great explanation a while back on how the hilly area's
affect range with my AGM batteries.

Any idea on how Lithium's would be affected ?

Better, worse, same !


Thanks;
Dennis 
Elsberry, MO 
http://www.evalbum.com/1366 




-----Original Message-----
From: Cor van de Water [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: Saturday, April 17, 2010 7:21 AM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Range

Hi Dennis,

It may be that Peukert takes its toll on your range, let's do some
calculations on your battery pack:
13 x PC1750 which has a 20h capacity of 68Ah =10,608Wh nominal, but at
EV type loads in hills, which means max half an hour driving with half
of that up and half downhill, you should look at the 15 min discharge
capacity and then you see 41Ah at 164A load (6396Wh):
http://www.odysseybatteries.com/battery/pc1700_65.htm
But it may be that your hill climbing requires more than 300A or even
500A which means that you can count the minutes that your battery can
supply this current on the fingers of one hand...

The 6400Wh "hill capacity" divided by 300Wh/mi gives 21 miles!

So yes - if you live in a flat country and you drive your EV for 20
miles constant speed at a current well below 100A then you can expect
around 50Ah usable capacity to 100%DOD so a max range of about 156V x
50Ah / 300Wh/mi = 26 miles.
Driving rather slowly and optimizing your vehicle (low weight, no brake
drag, zero toe-in, max time pressure) you may get down to 250Wh/mi or
better and your range becomes more than 31 miles.

I do not think there is anything wrong with your pack, it is just that
your expectations were too high for not taking the effect from Peukert
on Lead-Acid batteries into account.
BTW, I expect that immediately after charging your batteries are at a
higher voltage than 12.85 and this surface charge will slowly disappear
over time or with some load. You say your batteries return to 12.85 and
stay over 12V with a load test so they are OK and from the calculations
the capacity seems to be the same as in the spec under EV load
conditions.
Immediately after charge I have seen my AGMs stay as high as 13.25V
which will slowly bleed down.

Hope this helps.

Cor van de Water
Director HW & Systems Architecture Group Proxim Wireless Corporation
http://www.proxim.com
Email: [email protected] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [email protected]
Tel: +1 408 383 7626 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Tel: +91 (040)23117400 x203 XoIP: +31877841130


_______________________________________________
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| Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
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----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

John,

I feel your pain, my nearly 3 year old T-875's are definitely slowly on the=
ir way out. They realistically barely get me to work 12 miles now. I could =
*probably* make it there and back without charging, but my work lets me cha=
rge.

For the lithium pack you are looking at about $1.30 per ah per cell (ie a 1=
00ah cell would be $1.30 x 100 =3D $130). They typically come packaged 4 to=
gether for a 12.8 volt nominal pack. 92 cells, or 23 packs, would give you =
294.4 volts nominal. That would run you $23,920 for the battery, not includ=
ing any BMS of charger. Such a pack would be almost 59kwh and at 250 watt h=
ours per mile would give 235.5 miles range. Even at 80% DOD that would stil=
l be 47kwh or 188 miles.

That seems like a quantum jump from your 30 miles. Is it really necessary? =
I would think 100ah at 300v would be plenty. I'd be curious to see how you =
would fit 92 x 200ah cells in a car (ok maybe something big like a Crown Vi=
ctoria).


Regards,
Ricky Suiter
Elite Power Solutions
92 Saturn SC Conversion
AZ Alt Fuel Plates "ZEROGAS"


> ------------------------------
> =

> Message: 21
> Date: Fri, 25 Jun 2010 10:41:41 -0700
> From: "John G. Lussmyer" <[email protected]>
> Subject: [EVDL] Range fun
> To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <[email protected]>
> Message-ID: <[email protected]>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3DISO-8859-1;
> format=3Dflowed
> =

> So, my GC pack is already loosing range after 1 year of
> relatively light =

> usage. I think I'm down to 20 (or a bit more) miles
> range, instead of =

> the 30 it had when new. Most of my trips are either 1 mile,
> or 16 miles, =

> with an occaisional 20 mile. (That last one I'm now leary
> of doing.)
> I'd LOVE to have more range and accelleration.
> So, what are the current prices on a 200AH, 300v Lithium
> pack?
> =

> -- =

> --
> John G. Lussmyer mailto:[email protected]
> Electric Vehicle Battery Monitoring Systems, http://www.CasaDelGato.com



=


_______________________________________________
| REPLYING: address your message to [email protected] only.
| Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
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----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Ahh, forgot about that. Yeah you would need 200ah then. That would be a 75 mile easy, close to 100 mile per charge pack though at 600 watt hour per mile. That would be one heck of a usable vehicle. It's definitely doable, but would be rather expensive.

Regards,
Ricky Suiter


> Message: 15
> Date: Fri, 25 Jun 2010 17:06:06 -0700
> From: "John G. Lussmyer" <[email protected]>
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Range
> To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <[email protected]>
> Message-ID: <[email protected]>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1;
> format=flowed
> 
> Remember, F250. 5000 lbs + battery pack. 
> Aerodynamics of a brick.
> I'm currently getting around 600wh/mile. (at 60mph)
> 




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----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Bill,

The ~$24K figure was for 200ah. 100ah would be half the price. This is for GBS cells, they are lithium iron manganese phosphate, it has slightly better energy density than Thundersky or Sky Energy and is a much safer cell. Full disclosure, this is from Elite Power Solutions, I work there. This is just for the cells, no BMS or charger. I'd have to see how much a BMS would cost, but the one we have is very reasonably priced.

Right now we have 100ah cells, you could put two of these in parallel with one BMS board to handle the two, then put those in series with two more in parallel etc to make a 200ah ~300v pack. 200ah cells are being developed and we are supposed to be getting the first few soon, but they are mostly spoken for. If you wanted the two sets of 100ah I don't think I have that many in stock right this moment, but should later this week. We are trying to keep everything in stock and have new inventory coming in regularly.

This is the 100ah battery:
http://elitepowersolutions.com/products/product_info.php?cPath=25&products_id=92

of in case it wraps:
http://tinyurl.com/2dcma98

The dimensions are 125 X 280 X 234 mm or 4.9 X 11.0 X 9.2 in with the straps and end plates. Weight is 12.8 kg or 28.2 lbs. The cells can be arranged in rows for however many cells you want, they just need to be strapped like all other cells. The most common application is 12 volts so we get them in packs of 4. The nice thing is there are small alignment nubs on the cases of GBS cells so if you do re-srap them they stay together instead of trying to slide around while strapping.

The management system itself is what is great. The GBS cells have a plastic cover that goes over the top of the cells to protect the terminals. The height is to the top of this cover and the terminals are recessed below it slightly. The BMS sampling board fits under neath the cover with the cell jumpers so the height is the height. The BMS system itself literally fits in a matter of a few square inches of space. The BMS for over 24 cells does have some additional electronics, but it's very compact. The screen itself probably takes up more space. You can see an over view here:

http://www.elitepowersolutions.com/bms-overview.html

The current sensor is maybe 1.5" x 1.5" x 2", the hub board which everything plugs in to is roughtly 3" x 3". The screen gives you state of charge, total voltage, state of charge, individual cell voltage, max and min temperature (it monitors every cell), provides a low voltage cut off signal, interfaces with the charger to prevent overcharging. The sampling boards have a setable balancing power from 1-5 watts.

The AH rating is at the 3C discharge current to 2.5 volts per cell! So you can literally discharge the cells in 20 minutes and get the rated capacity. The cells are rated 10C peak amp draw. I will send you some documents. The one thing I have a problem with regarding lithium batteries now that I have worked in this business is there are a lot of un-substantiated claims out there for cycle life especially. I think Thundersky claims 5000 cycles at 70% DOD, but ask for data and they won't supply it. I have actual lab cycle life testing out to 2000 cycles on a GBS cell at 100% DOD, at 0.5C charge/discharge, where the cell still had 80% of it's rated capacity at that point! Obviously your results in the real world may vary, but I believe GBS is the best cell available and I have data to back it up. We claim a conservative 1500 cycles at 80% DOD, but really they should live far beyond that.

As for environmental management we recommend some natural air flow. The cells are rated to work at up to 65 degrees C, which is 149 degrees F. The BMS comes set to not cut power until 70 degrees C. On the cold end the literatuer I have, which is admittedly a so-so Chinese translation, says 78% capacity at 0 degrees C. You could warm them if desired, we don't have anything to do this, but I hear water bed heaters work well. They are not effected anything nearly like lead acid is effected by the cold and with some fans you should even be able to operate them here in Phoenix during the summer (it's forcast to be 110 degrees F today). My manager has a converted Miata with Thundersky cells (GBS didn't exist a few years back when it was converted) and it works fine with only passive cooling. 

Warranty is one year, if it were an OEM application with some volume we could talk about a possible longer warranty period.

I think the biggest advantage with our GBS cells is safety. In China there is a certification test for EV battery use. GBS was the first to pass it and it is a very comprehensive safety test. The US has no such standard. Basically it tries to make the battery fail violently. They overcharge the cells, cook the cells in an oven, short circuit the cells, crush the cells on a hydraulic press and my favorite is the piercing test where they take about a 1/4" steel rod and sharpen the end, put it on that hydraulic press and poke it through the cells creating a dead internal short. The case of the battery is PVC plastic so it's very strong, the cells literally will balloon during this test as the internals of the battery heats up and evaporates the electrolyte to the point where it looks like the cell will explode, but the patented safety cap blows off and releases the pressure and there is no violent incident, or fire, no explosion, nothing. The worst that
happens is the electrolye leaks out during the crush test, and it is not that much of an issue even (sulfuric acid is worse).

There is a new document on our web site showing all the advantages of GBS over other cells:

http://elitepowersolutions.com/docs/GBS_batteries.pdf

Hope that answers everything. If it works out I am planning on retrofitting my Saturn with GBS cells near the end of this year.

Regards,
Ricky Suiter
Elite Power Solutions
92 Saturn SC Conversion
AZ Alt Fuel Plates "ZEROGAS"



> ------------------------------
> 
> Message: 30
> Date: Mon, 28 Jun 2010 06:19:28 GMT
> From: "[email protected]"
> <[email protected]>
> Subject: [EVDL] Range
> To: [email protected]
> Message-ID: <[email protected]>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252"
> 
> Hi Rick,
> Did you miscalculate ?
> $ 1.30 per amphr is $ 130 for a 100 amphr cell.
> Four cells per 12.8 volt pack would be 4 x$ 130 or $ 520
> 23 x 12.8 volts = 294.4 volts and cost 23 x $ 520 or $
> 11,960 which is one half the $ 23,920 in your email on the
> EVDL.
> 
> Whose brand and what chemistry is the lithium ion battery
> you quote for $ 1.30 per amphr for a 100 amphr cell
> ? Are these batteries readily available
> ? How much does one 12.8 volt pack weigh ?
> What is the height, length, and width of one 12.8 volt pack
> ?
> What is the physical size and weight of the Battery
> Management System for 23 of the 12.8 volt packs ?
> What are the charge and discharge characteristics of this
> battery ?
> What is the deep cycle life of these batteries at 50
> percent, 80 percent, 90 percent, and 100 percent depth of
> discharge ????
> 
> What is the cost and warranty of that battery management
> system ?
> What is the cost for the environmental system to keep the
> lithium ion batteries within their optimum temperature range
> for extreme weather conditions (cold winter of say 0F and
> hot summer of say 90 F) ?
> Do you need just thermostats with cooling fans and a
> electric heater, is a antifreeze type cooling system needed
> with a cooling fan and small radiator like for nickel metal
> hydride batteries and a heater, or is a small heat pump
> required to take care of both extreme hot and cold weather
> temperatures ???
> 
> Does anyone have a environmentally controlled system on
> their conversion or production model passenger vehicle for
> lithium ion batteries ?
> 
> Thanks.
> May the solar force be with you forever.
> Menlo Park III, Bill




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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Ricky;

Can you answer a few additional questions about these GBS batteries.

- Is the last dimension 9.2" the height. 

- What is the ~ finish voltage right after charging. 

- What is the ~ finish voltage after they stabilize.

I presently run a nominal 156V system of (13) Odyssey PC1750 75AH
batteries.


Thanks;
Dennis 
Elsberry, MO 
http://www.evalbum.com/1366 


-----Original Message-----
From: Ricky Suiter [mailto:[email protected]] 
Sent: Monday, June 28, 2010 1:42 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Range

Bill,

The ~$24K figure was for 200ah. 100ah would be half the price. This is
for GBS cells, they are lithium iron manganese phosphate, it has
slightly better energy density than Thundersky or Sky Energy and is a
much safer cell. Full disclosure, this is from Elite Power Solutions, I
work there. This is just for the cells, no BMS or charger. I'd have to
see how much a BMS would cost, but the one we have is very reasonably
priced.

Right now we have 100ah cells, you could put two of these in parallel
with one BMS board to handle the two, then put those in series with two
more in parallel etc to make a 200ah ~300v pack. 200ah cells are being
developed and we are supposed to be getting the first few soon, but they
are mostly spoken for. If you wanted the two sets of 100ah I don't think
I have that many in stock right this moment, but should later this week.
We are trying to keep everything in stock and have new inventory coming
in regularly.

This is the 100ah battery:
http://elitepowersolutions.com/products/product_info.php?cPath=25&produc
ts_id=92

of in case it wraps:
http://tinyurl.com/2dcma98

The dimensions are 125 X 280 X 234 mm or 4.9 X 11.0 X 9.2 in with the
straps and end plates. Weight is 12.8 kg or 28.2 lbs. The cells can be
arranged in rows for however many cells you want, they just need to be
strapped like all other cells. The most common application is 12 volts
so we get them in packs of 4. The nice thing is there are small
alignment nubs on the cases of GBS cells so if you do re-srap them they
stay together instead of trying to slide around while strapping.

The management system itself is what is great. The GBS cells have a
plastic cover that goes over the top of the cells to protect the
terminals. The height is to the top of this cover and the terminals are
recessed below it slightly. The BMS sampling board fits under neath the
cover with the cell jumpers so the height is the height. The BMS system
itself literally fits in a matter of a few square inches of space. The
BMS for over 24 cells does have some additional electronics, but it's
very compact. The screen itself probably takes up more space. You can
see an over view here:

http://www.elitepowersolutions.com/bms-overview.html

The current sensor is maybe 1.5" x 1.5" x 2", the hub board which
everything plugs in to is roughtly 3" x 3". The screen gives you state
of charge, total voltage, state of charge, individual cell voltage, max
and min temperature (it monitors every cell), provides a low voltage cut
off signal, interfaces with the charger to prevent overcharging. The
sampling boards have a setable balancing power from 1-5 watts.

The AH rating is at the 3C discharge current to 2.5 volts per cell! So
you can literally discharge the cells in 20 minutes and get the rated
capacity. The cells are rated 10C peak amp draw. I will send you some
documents. The one thing I have a problem with regarding lithium
batteries now that I have worked in this business is there are a lot of
un-substantiated claims out there for cycle life especially. I think
Thundersky claims 5000 cycles at 70% DOD, but ask for data and they
won't supply it. I have actual lab cycle life testing out to 2000 cycles
on a GBS cell at 100% DOD, at 0.5C charge/discharge, where the cell
still had 80% of it's rated capacity at that point! Obviously your
results in the real world may vary, but I believe GBS is the best cell
available and I have data to back it up. We claim a conservative 1500
cycles at 80% DOD, but really they should live far beyond that.

As for environmental management we recommend some natural air flow. The
cells are rated to work at up to 65 degrees C, which is 149 degrees F.
The BMS comes set to not cut power until 70 degrees C. On the cold end
the literatuer I have, which is admittedly a so-so Chinese translation,
says 78% capacity at 0 degrees C. You could warm them if desired, we
don't have anything to do this, but I hear water bed heaters work well.
They are not effected anything nearly like lead acid is effected by the
cold and with some fans you should even be able to operate them here in
Phoenix during the summer (it's forcast to be 110 degrees F today). My
manager has a converted Miata with Thundersky cells (GBS didn't exist a
few years back when it was converted) and it works fine with only
passive cooling. 

Warranty is one year, if it were an OEM application with some volume we
could talk about a possible longer warranty period.

I think the biggest advantage with our GBS cells is safety. In China
there is a certification test for EV battery use. GBS was the first to
pass it and it is a very comprehensive safety test. The US has no such
standard. Basically it tries to make the battery fail violently. They
overcharge the cells, cook the cells in an oven, short circuit the
cells, crush the cells on a hydraulic press and my favorite is the
piercing test where they take about a 1/4" steel rod and sharpen the
end, put it on that hydraulic press and poke it through the cells
creating a dead internal short. The case of the battery is PVC plastic
so it's very strong, the cells literally will balloon during this test
as the internals of the battery heats up and evaporates the electrolyte
to the point where it looks like the cell will explode, but the patented
safety cap blows off and releases the pressure and there is no violent
incident, or fire, no explosion, nothing. The worst that happens is the
electrolye leaks out during the crush test, and it is not that much of
an issue even (sulfuric acid is worse).

There is a new document on our web site showing all the advantages of
GBS over other cells:

http://elitepowersolutions.com/docs/GBS_batteries.pdf

Hope that answers everything. If it works out I am planning on
retrofitting my Saturn with GBS cells near the end of this year.

Regards,
Ricky Suiter
Elite Power Solutions
92 Saturn SC Conversion
AZ Alt Fuel Plates "ZEROGAS"



> ------------------------------
> 
> Message: 30
> Date: Mon, 28 Jun 2010 06:19:28 GMT
> From: "[email protected]"
> <[email protected]>
> Subject: [EVDL] Range
> To: [email protected]
> Message-ID: <[email protected]>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252"
> 
> Hi Rick,
> Did you miscalculate ?
> $ 1.30 per amphr is $ 130 for a 100 amphr cell.
> Four cells per 12.8 volt pack would be 4 x$ 130 or $ 520
> 23 x 12.8 volts = 294.4 volts and cost 23 x $ 520 or $ 11,960 which is

> one half the $ 23,920 in your email on the EVDL.
> 
> Whose brand and what chemistry is the lithium ion battery you quote 
> for $ 1.30 per amphr for a 100 amphr cell
> ? Are these batteries readily available
> ? How much does one 12.8 volt pack weigh ?
> What is the height, length, and width of one 12.8 volt pack ?
> What is the physical size and weight of the Battery Management System

> for 23 of the 12.8 volt packs ?
> What are the charge and discharge characteristics of this battery ?
> What is the deep cycle life of these batteries at 50 percent, 80 
> percent, 90 percent, and 100 percent depth of discharge ????
> 
> What is the cost and warranty of that battery management system ?
> What is the cost for the environmental system to keep the lithium ion 
> batteries within their optimum temperature range for extreme weather 
> conditions (cold winter of say 0F and hot summer of say 90 F) ?
> Do you need just thermostats with cooling fans and a electric heater, 
> is a antifreeze type cooling system needed with a cooling fan and 
> small radiator like for nickel metal hydride batteries and a heater, 
> or is a small heat pump required to take care of both extreme hot and 
> cold weather temperatures ???
> 
> Does anyone have a environmentally controlled system on their 
> conversion or production model passenger vehicle for lithium ion 
> batteries ?
> 
> Thanks.
> May the solar force be with you forever.
> Menlo Park III, Bill






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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Dennis,

Yes 9.2" is the height to the top of the cover. As mentioned before the terminals are recessed down below that cover. The cell jumpers (which are silver plated copper by the way!) and BMS boards fit under neath that cover so if you had 9.2" of height to play with then the cell would fit.

I forgot to mention one other thing. The terminals are square with four threaded holes on it instead of just one large bolt. You get a more secure connection with this that is unlikely to come loose over time and let the connection rotate. If you want a more permanent installation the terminal is designed to accept a rivet also.

Regards,
Ricky Suiter
Elite Power Solutions
92 Saturn SC Conversion
AZ Alt Fuel Plates "ZEROGAS"


> Message: 19
> Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2010 08:41:23 -0500
> From: "Pestka, Dennis J" <[email protected]>
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Range
> To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
> Message-ID:
> <[email protected]>
> Content-Type: text/plain; 
> charset="us-ascii"
> 
> Ricky;
> 
> Can you answer a few additional questions about these GBS
> batteries.
> 
> - Is the last dimension 9.2" the height. 
> 
> - What is the ~ finish voltage right after charging. 
> 
> - What is the ~ finish voltage after they stabilize.
> 
> I presently run a nominal 156V system of (13) Odyssey
> PC1750 75AH
> batteries.
> 
> 
> Thanks;
> Dennis 




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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

And I just realized I didn't answer the other half of the question. The recommended charge voltage is 3.65 volts per cell. The BMS will turn the charger off it a cell reached 3.7 and let the balancers do their thing for 5 minutes, then it turns back on at half power until it sees a cell reach 3.7 volts, and does this on-off cycle five times. At rest the cells can be up around 3.6 volts and as soon as you start discharging them the voltage drops to about 3.3 and stays in the 3.2 - 3.3 volt range during most of the discharge curve. Usually off the charger I see 3.4-3.5 volts per cell.

I always tell people to check in to the absolute limits of the controller as the hot off the charge voltage of lithium tends to be higher. You might be able to get away with a few less cells also.

Rick


> Message: 19
> Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2010 08:41:23 -0500
> From: "Pestka, Dennis J" <[email protected]>
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Range
> To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
> Message-ID:
> <[email protected]>
> Content-Type: text/plain; 
> charset="us-ascii"
> 
> Ricky;
> 
> Can you answer a few additional questions about these GBS
> batteries.
> 
> - Is the last dimension 9.2" the height. 
> 
> - What is the ~ finish voltage right after charging. 
> 
> - What is the ~ finish voltage after they stabilize.
> 
> I presently run a nominal 156V system of (13) Odyssey
> PC1750 75AH
> batteries.
> 
> 
> Thanks;
> Dennis 




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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

And I just found one cause of my Lowered range, I'm an idiot! 
(Actually, I was just being Dyslexic, and for some reason didn't stop to 
figure why the numbers were WRONG.)
A couple months ago, I was working on the truck, and decided to check 
the max charging voltage. It was WAY too high!
So I turned it down.
Turns out that I had been reading my notes on what the charging voltage 
SHOULD be incorrectly.
It SHOULD be 372v, and I read it as 327v.
So I've been charging to 327v since that time, which is only 6.8v per 
battery, or 2.27v/cell.
WAY lower that it should be.

How come when you find a weird problem like "Charging voltage way higher 
than you think it should be", you never go back and check your numbers?
Things like this have happened to me before....

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> John G. Lussmyer wrote:
> 
> > It SHOULD be 372v, and I read it as 327v.
> > So I've been charging to 327v since that time, which is only 6.8v per
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Remember the cardinal rule of working on high voltage battery systems,
always have your coffee before doing any work! 

(almost poured coffee in my oatmeal this morning, I can't do anything
without coffee, including making coffee. )



On Sat, Jul 3, 2010 at 1:59 PM, John G. Lussmyer <[email protected]> w=
rote:
> And I just found one cause of my Lowered range, I'm an idiot!
> (Actually, I was just being Dyslexic, and for some reason didn't stop to
> figure why the numbers were WRONG.)
> A couple months ago, I was working on the truck, and decided to check
> the max charging voltage. It was WAY too high!
> So I turned it down.
> Turns out that I had been reading my notes on what the charging voltage
> SHOULD be incorrectly.
> It SHOULD be 372v, and I read it as 327v.
> So I've been charging to 327v since that time, which is only 6.8v per
> battery, or 2.27v/cell.
> WAY lower that it should be.
>
> How come when you find a weird problem like "Charging voltage way higher
> than you think it should be", you never go back and check your numbers?
> Things like this have happened to me before....
>
> _______________________________________________
> | REPLYING: address your message to [email protected] only.
> | Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
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> | OPTIONS: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>



-- =

www.electric-lemon.com

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Nader;
http://www.evalbum.com/3400

Are you really getting a 100 mile range from (200) A123 batteries that
weigh 30kg ?
That seems unbelievable.
It shows that you have put 647 EV miles on your 2002 Alfa Romeo 156.

Can you explain?

Dennis 
Elsberry, MO 
http://www.evalbum.com/1366 



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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

The car does weigh 1,400lbs....
interesting.

Can we get Alfa's of this vintage in the US ?
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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Dave;

I think it states that this was the weight after the ICE and other
components were removed, (Glider Weight).
Does not state how much weight was added with all the electric
components, or final converted weight.

Even if the converted weight was 1400#.
100 mile range from 66# of batteries ?
Something doesn't sound right.

Thanks;
Dennis 
Elsberry, MO 
http://www.evalbum.com/1366 



-----Original Message-----
From: Dave Hymers [mailto:[email protected]] 
Sent: Wednesday, July 28, 2010 1:19 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Range

The car does weigh 1,400lbs....
interesting.

Can we get Alfa's of this vintage in the US ?
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