# Zivan NG3 charger - better than Manzanita Micro?



## ElectriCar (Jun 15, 2008)

I have the NG5. I like it. Seems to be well built with ample cooling. Mine is set up for 240V supply voltage. I use it at home and the office which is 208V. I decided on it as it was in use by some others and was one of few offering 208-240V operation. Also it is rated at 7kw or so thus giving me a rapid recharge versus the 5kw units. It draws 30 amps on 208 or 240. My pack is 144V.

Another feature is that it is so versatile and precise. They can reprogram it at the factory for the specific battery you're using if you have the charge profile. I'm using lead but to switch to lithium they said is no problem. 

I've used it since December of 08 with no problems, even in the summer with the windows rolled up it was fine, though I avoid that whenever possible.


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## corbin (Apr 6, 2010)

ElectriCar said:


> I have the NG5. I like it. Seems to be well built with ample cooling. Mine is set up for 240V supply voltage. I use it at home and the office which is 208V. I decided on it as it was in use by some others and was one of few offering 208-240V operation. Also it is rated at 7kw or so thus giving me a rapid recharge versus the 5kw units. It draws 30 amps on 208 or 240. My pack is 144V.
> 
> Another feature is that it is so versatile and precise. They can reprogram it at the factory for the specific battery you're using if you have the charge profile. I'm using lead but to switch to lithium they said is no problem.
> 
> I've used it since December of 08 with no problems, even in the summer with the windows rolled up it was fine, though I avoid that whenever possible.


Cool -- thanks for the info! 

--corbin


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## O'Zeeke (Mar 9, 2008)

I have a NG3 which I did send back for reprogramming ($75)when I switched to Lithium. No problems at all


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## Travdude (May 11, 2009)

The main difference I found is:

The Zivan is isolated, but you can not adjust the voltage easily.
The Manzanita is not isolated, but you can adjust the voltage and current.


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## corbin (Apr 6, 2010)

Travdude said:


> The main difference I found is:
> 
> The Zivan is isolated, but you can not adjust the voltage easily.
> The Manzanita is not isolated, but you can adjust the voltage and current.


Thanks Travis -- I did some research today, I decided to go with the Manzanita Micro. 

I'm trying to choose between the PFC-30 vs PFC-20 -- I'm guessing that higher amps output means a faster charge, so I'm leaning towards the PFC-30 which puts out 40amps. Do you think the higher rating is needed?

I haven't done any math yet on figuring out how long it will take to charge my pack..

corbin


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## Travdude (May 11, 2009)

My PFC 20 puts out about 27 amps when plugged into 240V, and about 15 amps when plugged into 120V.

At work, I have to use a 15A outlet, so I have to turn the charger way down to about 11 amps out. Even at 11 amps, it still has plenty of time to replace the 40Ah it took to get to work.

It would be nice to be able to pump 40 amps into the pack and be charged up in an hour!

I am sure you won't be sorry if you get the PFC-30


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## ElectriCar (Jun 15, 2008)

More amps = more potential miles per day if you use it like I do, for work and the commute. I may switch to a high amp charger when I switch to lithium. 

I don't recall anything about that charger when I was looking. I just recall the ability to reconfigure the Zivan units for different batteries. And I'm sad to know that the Manzanita will work with either 120 or 240. Don't think the Zivan is capable of that.


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## corbin (Apr 6, 2010)

ElectriCar said:


> More amps = more potential miles per day if you use it like I do, for work and the commute. I may switch to a high amp charger when I switch to lithium.
> 
> I don't recall anything about that charger when I was looking. I just recall the ability to reconfigure the Zivan units for different batteries. And I'm sad to know that the Manzanita will work with either 120 or 240. Don't think the Zivan is capable of that.


Yeah, after doing research, I realized that is something I really want. I'm hoping to use 220v at home, and 110v when I have to. I need to double check work, but I assumed we have 220 and high amp output, since we have "EV charging stations".

I just have to get to work before the guys with their Tesla roadsters do. (there's a few at Apple).

corbin


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## ElectriCar (Jun 15, 2008)

corbin said:


> Yeah, after doing research, I realized that is something I really want. I'm hoping to use 220v at home, and 110v when I have to. I need to double check work, but I assumed we have 220 and high amp output, since we have "EV charging stations".
> 
> I just have to get to work before the guys with their Tesla roadsters do. (there's a few at Apple).
> 
> corbin


Oh how awesome to work at Apple Well I do my share to keep you guys working! Just wish your iphone was available to Nextel. Lots of contractors use Nextel for the direct connect feature.


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## tomofreno (Mar 3, 2009)

> ...so I'm leaning towards the PFC-30 which puts out 40amps.


 No it won't. Both JRP3 and I have PFC30s and tested this. They put out a max of about 38 - 39ADC (pulling about 30A rms from the wall), overheat and cut back to lower output in about 15 - 25 minutes (mine cut back in about 20 minutes in 73 F ambient). Mine happily charges for hours at 30ADC output though. Both packs are nominal 115V, up to around 124V during charging. With a 144V pack the charger output current will be a bit less.


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## ElectriCar (Jun 15, 2008)

So your unit is plugged into 120V and puts out 38-39 amps? I'm a little confused. 

My Zivan, draws 30A at 240 from the wall. Not sure what it puts out on DC.


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## corbin (Apr 6, 2010)

tomofreno said:


> No it won't. Both JRP3 and I have PFC30s and tested this. They put out a max of about 38 - 39ADC (pulling about 30A rms from the wall), overheat and cut back to lower output in about 15 - 25 minutes (mine cut back in about 20 minutes in 73 F ambient). Mine happily charges for hours at 30ADC output though. Both packs are nominal 115V, up to around 124V during charging. With a 144V pack the charger output current will be a bit less.


Interesting! In that case, is it even worth it to get the PFC-30? Especially considering I'm going with a 154V pack. The PFC-30, buck enhanced, should put out 30ADC, but I wonder if it will have the same problem when run at full power.

--corbin


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## tomofreno (Mar 3, 2009)

> So your unit is plugged into 120V and puts out 38-39 amps? I'm a little confused.


 No, 240VAC, actually was at about 238V, about 5kW from the wall. I have a pigtail to attach to my extension cord for 120VAC but never use it. More convenient to charge at home, and it has adequate range for my needs.

Corbin, charging time is just Ah used/charging current, so if I use 100Ah and charge at 30 A that will be about 3 hr 20 min. Actually about 20 minutes or so longer due to cut back of charging current once CV phase is reached.


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## ElectriCar (Jun 15, 2008)

So if you're pulling [email protected] that's 9.6kw. My Zivan NG5 draws [email protected] or 7.2kw.

Zivan says their units are 85-90% efficient so I can only estimate that mine is outputting 6.1-6.4kw to the pack. I'm curious what the Manzanita's efficiency is. Seems like 85-90% could be much improved.


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## tomofreno (Mar 3, 2009)

> So if you're pulling [email protected] that's 9.6kw.


 240VAC is the peak voltage (whoops, it is rms, you are correct) or voltage amplitude. As stated earlier I was pulling about 30 A rms from the wall. Power is the product of rms current, rms voltage, and power factor. Edit: The voltage was actually about 238.4, and current was 43.5A so apparent power was about 10.4kW. The EKM meter read 4984W, so power factor must have been about 0.48. Efficiency at 30A*DC* output and below I've measured at about 94%, at 34ADC it was about 93%.



> The PFC-30, buck enhanced, should put out 30ADC, but I wonder if it will have the same problem when run at full power.


 PFC20 I assume you meant. Yes, I would guess that it will.


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## Coulomb (Apr 22, 2009)

tomofreno said:


> 240VAC is the peak voltage or voltage amplitude.


Huh? Unless AC voltage in the USA is very different to elsewhere, it is measured by its RMS value. So 240 V RMS has about 370 V peak. If you rectify and filter 240 V, you get around 370 VDC.

AC voltage is specified that way so it has the same effect on a resistive load, like an incandescent lamp, than the same amount of DC. So a 240 V globe will work as well on 240 VAC or 240 VDC, even though it is experiencing 370 V at some instants, zero at others, and everything between at other instants. The power in a resistive load is proportional to the square of the voltage, so that's why RMS (square Root of the Mean Squared) is used: the average power is the same.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Yeah Tom mentioned that in my thread and it didn't make sense to me. Charging a 120 volt pack at 40 amps is 4800 watts, a 240 volt line should be pulling no more than 20 amps or so, a bit more due to inefficiency.
Being able to charge from 240 and 120 lines is very handy, but the cutoff voltage does change between the two so you need to be aware of that. If I set the charger to go into CV mode at 122 volts on the 240V line, when I plug it into a 120V line CV mode doesn't come on until 124 volts. Rich says this drift is normal and can't be helped.


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## tomofreno (Mar 3, 2009)

> Huh? Unless AC voltage in the USA is very different to elsewhere, it is measured by its RMS value.


 Sorry for the confusion. The EKM meter at the input to the PFC30 read: 238.4VAC, 43.5A AC, 4984W. The product of this voltage and current is 10370.4W. So the power factor is 0.48.


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## Coulomb (Apr 22, 2009)

tomofreno said:


> Sorry for the confusion. The EKM meter at the input to the PFC30 read: 238.4VAC, 43.5A AC, 4984W. The product of this voltage and current is 10370.4W. So the power factor is 0.48.


Ah. That sounds like this meter doesn't like/understand the shape of the current that the charger is drawing. This is a PF corrected charger, so presumably the power factor should be high, but it may have some PWM spikes on it that haven't been completely removed by input filtering.

It's highly unlikely that the power factor is actually 0.48. Fellow Aussies are having similar issues with various brands of power meters on chargers, e.g.

http://www.aeva.asn.au/forums/forum_posts.asp?TID=1914.


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