# [EVDL] Which is more efficient, Regen or Coasting?



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

It's a simple question, but an interesting one.

I ask is it more efficient to (for example at traffic lights):

Take your foot entirely off the accelerator and let the vehicle coast to 
a stop (using no power whatsoever for forward motion, but getting no 
regen power at all).

or

Drive forward until you are in Regen-Stopping range, use the Regen to 
stop the vehicle completely (using power to get you to the lights, but 
claiming a large portion of it back through regen).

Leaving battery chemistries out of the question at the moment (So, 
assuming the batteries can store any amount of power that is requested 
of them without issue), which would be a more efficient use of energy?

Just a thought.

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

It has a simple answer... coasting. While coasting you are using stored kinetic energy for motion. With Regen you have to convert that same kinetic energy to some other form and then back again. Since there are not any no-loss methods of converting energy and assuming that all other factors remain unchanged the coasting wins every time.



damon

> Date: Wed, 12 May 2010 18:18:25 -0600
> From: [email protected]
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: [EVDL] Which is more efficient, Regen or Coasting?
> 
> It's a simple question, but an interesting one.
> 
> I ask is it more efficient to (for example at traffic lights):
> 
> Take your foot entirely off the accelerator and let the vehicle coast to 
> a stop (using no power whatsoever for forward motion, but getting no 
> regen power at all).
> 
> or
> 
> Drive forward until you are in Regen-Stopping range, use the Regen to 
> stop the vehicle completely (using power to get you to the lights, but 
> claiming a large portion of it back through regen).
> 
> Leaving battery chemistries out of the question at the moment (So, 
> assuming the batteries can store any amount of power that is requested 
> of them without issue), which would be a more efficient use of energy?
> 
> Just a thought.
> 
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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Hi Damon,

> It has a simple answer... coasting. While coasting you are using stored kinetic energy for motion. With Regen you have to convert that same kinetic energy to some other form and then back again. Since there are not any no-loss methods of converting energy and assuming that all other factors remain unchanged the coasting wins every time.


Yes, coast when ever you can, and use regenerative braking when you need to stop. I think this is why some of the factory EV's fail to get as much range as they think (like the Mini E): they put regen on the accelerator pedal, and this forces you to try and find the neutral position for coasting, and I don't think you'll find it consistently. And they use a lot of regen, so much that people tend to feel like they will go through the windshield.

This just encourages an aggressive style of driving I call "accelerating to a stop" and it makes good ecodriving even harder than it should be.

Sincerely, Neil
http://neilblanchard.vox.com/library/posts/




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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

On Wed, May 12, 2010 at 6:20 PM, Neil Blanchard


> <[email protected]>wrote:
> 
> >
> > Yes, coast when ever you can, and use regenerative braking when you need to
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

My guess is that regen wouldn't replace the power that you would use up 
before braking, and that coasting would be the most efficient - but I could 
be wrong.

Joseph H. Strubhar

Web: www.gremcoinc.com

E-mail: [email protected]


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Robert Johnston" <[email protected]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, May 12, 2010 5:18 PM
Subject: [EVDL] Which is more efficient, Regen or Coasting?


> It's a simple question, but an interesting one.
>
> I ask is it more efficient to (for example at traffic lights):
>
> Take your foot entirely off the accelerator and let the vehicle coast to
> a stop (using no power whatsoever for forward motion, but getting no
> regen power at all).
>
> or
>
> Drive forward until you are in Regen-Stopping range, use the Regen to
> stop the vehicle completely (using power to get you to the lights, but
> claiming a large portion of it back through regen).
>
> Leaving battery chemistries out of the question at the moment (So,
> assuming the batteries can store any amount of power that is requested
> of them without issue), which would be a more efficient use of energy?
>
> Just a thought.
>
> _______________________________________________
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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Yes, the true answer in the real world is indeed to use both regen and coasting. Why is there always a stop sign at the bottom of the hill anyway? 



This is one thing I love about my Honda Insight. I don't believe there is a factory built car in the world that coasts better, and I have regen available when coasting is not an option.



I know from using my (non-regen) EV's though, that the single most important factor in trying to maximize range is how much can you minimize using the brakes. If you routinely drive the same route you can become very proficient at coasting.



damon

> From: [email protected]
> Date: Wed, 12 May 2010 21:20:25 -0400
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Which is more efficient, Regen or Coasting?
> 
> Hi Damon,
> 
> > It has a simple answer... coasting. While coasting you are using stored kinetic energy for motion. With Regen you have to convert that same kinetic energy to some other form and then back again. Since there are not any no-loss methods of converting energy and assuming that all other factors remain unchanged the coasting wins every time.
> 
> 
> Yes, coast when ever you can, and use regenerative braking when you need to stop. I think this is why some of the factory EV's fail to get as much range as they think (like the Mini E): they put regen on the accelerator pedal, and this forces you to try and find the neutral position for coasting, and I don't think you'll find it consistently. And they use a lot of regen, so much that people tend to feel like they will go through the windshield.
> 
> This just encourages an aggressive style of driving I call "accelerating to a stop" and it makes good ecodriving even harder than it should be.
> 
> Sincerely, Neil
> http://neilblanchard.vox.com/library/posts/
> 
> 
> 
> 
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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

>>If you routinely drive the same route you
>>can become very proficient at coasting.

I currently have a partially electric car (prius).
A good day is when I can coast from the NJ tower
of the GWB, across the span (slight uphill, then down)
and down onto the NB Degan/87/thruway.

Traffic has to be light enough to allow me to coast
but not so light that they run me off the road.

In a prius, you need to feather the accelerator
to suspend regen. There's no switch offered...

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Can't you put the Prius shifter into neutral to coast?

EV content: I would guess an EV would coast a tiny bit further in neutral than just clutch in, plus that's less wearing on the throwout bearing.




________________________________
From: Seth Rothenberg <[email protected]>
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <[email protected]>
Sent: Thu, May 13, 2010 2:27:48 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Which is more efficient, Regen or Coasting?

>>If you routinely drive the same route you
>>can become very proficient at coasting.

I currently have a partially electric car (prius). A good day is when I can coast from the NJ tower
of the GWB, across the span (slight uphill, then down) and down onto the NB Degan/87/thruway.

Traffic has to be light enough to allow me to coast but not so light that they run me off the road.

In a prius, you need to feather the accelerator to suspend regen. There's no switch offered...



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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Tires effect coasting enormously... and I would be willing to bet that most 
converted EV's do not have Low Rolling Resistant Tires for the simple reason 
that LRR tires do not come in all sizes.

I had to get a new set of tires for my Insight and was told by the tire guy 
at a national chain here in Tucson that Pirelli had a LRR tire that was as 
good as the OEM Bridgestone Potenza and they were about 15% cheaper and had 
a longer milage life, but instead of 165/65r14's, they were 175/65r14's, 
just a little wider.

WOW! What a difference in milage, with the Potenza's I got 60 mpg, with the 
Pirelli's I got about 51 mgp. And I got massive torque steer. In 1st, 2nd 
and 3rd, when I would accelerate, the car would pull to the right and I 
would have to steer left to compensate.

So LRR tires make an enoromous difference in the milage you get.

Rush Dougherty
www.TEVA2.com
Tucson AZ

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "David Dymaxion" <[email protected]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, May 13, 2010 3:59 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Which is more efficient, Regen or Coasting?


> Can't you put the Prius shifter into neutral to coast?
>
> EV content: I would guess an EV would coast a tiny bit further in neutral 
> than just clutch in, plus that's less wearing on the throwout bearing.
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: Seth Rothenberg <[email protected]>
> To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <[email protected]>
> Sent: Thu, May 13, 2010 2:27:48 PM
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Which is more efficient, Regen or Coasting?
>
>>>If you routinely drive the same route you
>>>can become very proficient at coasting.
>
> I currently have a partially electric car (prius). A good day is when I 
> can coast from the NJ tower
> of the GWB, across the span (slight uphill, then down) and down onto the 
> NB Degan/87/thruway.
>
> Traffic has to be light enough to allow me to coast but not so light that 
> they run me off the road.
>
> In a prius, you need to feather the accelerator to suspend regen. There's 
> no switch offered...
>
>
>
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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Thanks for posting that Rush. I wonder how the Pirelli would perform if they
had the same size.



> Rush <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> > Tires effect coasting enormously... and I would be willing to bet that most
> > converted EV's do not have Low Rolling Resistant Tires for the simple
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Careful Rush, 175/65r14's are 0.51" taller than 165/65r14's ;-)
At an assumed gearing and rpm that gets you in the 60 mph range the taller tires will read 1.4mph faster than the stock ones.
Don't know if that would make a significant impact on the difference in mileage your cars computer is measuring, but it might mean a
little ;-)

Mike

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Rush
Sent: Thursday, May 13, 2010 7:52 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Which is more efficient, Regen or Coasting?

<snip> but instead of 165/65r14's, they were 175/65r14's, just a little wider.<snip>
Rush Dougherty
www.TEVA2.com
Tucson AZ

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Yep, coasting wins. Braking is wasting wether its friction or regen. Though you do get approx 10% to 15% of the energy back that
you put into accelerating with the regen, the friction brakes make you lose it all ;-) I got so used to the gliding game when I was
driving the Mitsubishi in Anchorage that it almost hurt me to even put my foot on the brake, much less come to a complete stop in
traffic 

Mike

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of damon henry
Sent: Thursday, May 13, 2010 8:07 AM
To: EV List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Which is more efficient, Regen or Coasting?


Yes, the true answer in the real world is indeed to use both regen and coasting. Why is there always a stop sign at the bottom of
the hill anyway? 



This is one thing I love about my Honda Insight. I don't believe there is a factory built car in the world that coasts better, and
I have regen available when coasting is not an option.



I know from using my (non-regen) EV's though, that the single most important factor in trying to maximize range is how much can you
minimize using the brakes. If you routinely drive the same route you can become very proficient at coasting.



damon

> From: [email protected]
> Date: Wed, 12 May 2010 21:20:25 -0400
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Which is more efficient, Regen or Coasting?
> 
> Hi Damon,
> 
> > It has a simple answer... coasting. While coasting you are using stored kinetic energy for motion. With Regen you have to
convert that same kinetic energy to some other form and then back again. Since there are not any no-loss methods of converting
energy and assuming that all other factors remain unchanged the coasting wins every time.
> 
> 
> Yes, coast when ever you can, and use regenerative braking when you need to stop. I think this is why some of the factory EV's
fail to get as much range as they think (like the Mini E): they put regen on the accelerator pedal, and this forces you to try and
find the neutral position for coasting, and I don't think you'll find it consistently. And they use a lot of regen, so much that
people tend to feel like they will go through the windshield.
> 
> This just encourages an aggressive style of driving I call "accelerating to a stop" and it makes good ecodriving even harder than
it should be.
> 
> Sincerely, Neil
> http://neilblanchard.vox.com/library/posts/
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Not to worry Mike. After 2 days of driving and not liking the handling or 
bad mpg, I took the car back and asked that they replace them with the OEM 
Potenzas, which they did. It took them 2 weeks to order in the Potenza's, I 
think that is why the salesman suggested the Pirelli's.


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Mike Willmon" <[email protected]>
To: "'Electric Vehicle Discussion List'" <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, May 13, 2010 10:10 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Which is more efficient, Regen or Coasting?


> Careful Rush, 175/65r14's are 0.51" taller than 165/65r14's ;-)
> At an assumed gearing and rpm that gets you in the 60 mph range the taller 
> tires will read 1.4mph faster than the stock ones.
> Don't know if that would make a significant impact on the difference in 
> mileage your cars computer is measuring, but it might mean a
> little ;-)
>
> Mike
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On 
> Behalf Of Rush
> Sent: Thursday, May 13, 2010 7:52 PM
> To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Which is more efficient, Regen or Coasting?
>
> <snip> but instead of 165/65r14's, they were 175/65r14's, just a little 
> wider.<snip>
> Rush Dougherty
> www.TEVA2.com
> Tucson AZ
>
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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Yep salesmen are stupid that way ;-) I think I quit listening to salesmen back in the 80's. I found I could do the research
faster, easier and more reliably than anyone that works on commission ;-) Actually every once in a while you'll find one that
believes you and may actually learn something. But those are few and far between.

I wish I could find Potenza's that fit my Mitsubishi :-O

Mike

> -----Original Message-----
> From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Rush
> Sent: Thursday, May 13, 2010 10:30 PM
> To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Which is more efficient, Regen or Coasting?
> 
> Not to worry Mike. After 2 days of driving and not liking the handling or
> bad mpg, I took the car back and asked that they replace them with the OEM
> Potenzas, which they did. It took them 2 weeks to order in the Potenza's, I
> think that is why the salesman suggested the Pirelli's.
> 
> 
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Mike Willmon" <[email protected]>
> To: "'Electric Vehicle Discussion List'" <[email protected]>
> Sent: Thursday, May 13, 2010 10:10 PM
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Which is more efficient, Regen or Coasting?
> 
> 
> > Careful Rush, 175/65r14's are 0.51" taller than 165/65r14's ;-)
> > At an assumed gearing and rpm that gets you in the 60 mph range the taller
> > tires will read 1.4mph faster than the stock ones.
> > Don't know if that would make a significant impact on the difference in
> > mileage your cars computer is measuring, but it might mean a
> > little ;-)
> >
> > Mike
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On
> > Behalf Of Rush
> > Sent: Thursday, May 13, 2010 7:52 PM
> > To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
> > Subject: Re: [EVDL] Which is more efficient, Regen or Coasting?
> >
> > <snip> but instead of 165/65r14's, they were 175/65r14's, just a little
> > wider.<snip>
> > Rush Dougherty
> > www.TEVA2.com
> > Tucson AZ
> >
> > _______________________________________________
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> >
> 
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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Hello,

> Yep, coasting wins. Braking is wasting wether its friction or regen. Though you do get approx 10% to 15% of the energy back that
> you put into accelerating with the regen, the friction brakes make you lose it all ;-) 

The folks at Carnegie Mellon in the ChargeCar.org are using a relatively small supercapacitor along with their lead acid batteries -- and they are regaining 40-48% of their energy. That's FOURTY to nearly FIFTY PERCENT...

They are also loading the batteries about HALF as much, and the internal temperature in the batteries is about 50% cooler; reducing the Peukert's Affect. The supercapacitor is 1/500th of the battery capacity, and it acts as a "high current cache".

So, it depends on the regeneration system and on your batteries, how much energy you can regain. Heating the brakes is total waste, as you noted.

Sincerely, Neil
http://neilblanchard.vox.com/library/posts/




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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Hi Mike,

> Careful Rush, 175/65r14's are 0.51" taller than 165/65r14's ;-)
> At an assumed gearing and rpm that gets you in the 60 mph range the taller tires will read 1.4mph faster than the stock ones.
> Don't know if that would make a significant impact on the difference in mileage your cars computer is measuring, but it might mean a
> little ;-)

You're right about the wider tires also being larger diameter -- but larger diameter means they will cause your speed to read *lower* and the odometer to underreport the distance.

Whenever you change tires, you need to calibrate your odometer (either by measuring the distance with your GPS unit, or with something like Google Maps, or with the measurement markers on many main highways). This is needed *even* if the tires are the same size *rating*, because all tires of different brands, and models -- vary in their actual outside diameter, and revolutions per mile.

Sincerely, Neil
http://neilblanchard.vox.com/library/posts/




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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

The idea that you can't coast if you have regen on the accelerator pedal is
misguided. As Dave mentions you can use pedal position to modulate regen,
from coasting to maximum. Coasting to a stop may work ins some situations
but I guarantee if there is other traffic around waiting for you to do so
you'll have a bunch of people less than happy with you. Regen allows you to
move with the flow of traffic and still recover some energy. Also in any
situation where you have to use the brakes to maintain or reduce speed, such
as hills, regen wins.





> Dave Hale wrote:
> >
> > On Wed, May 12, 2010 at 6:20 PM, Neil Blanchard
> > <[email protected]>wrote:
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

I wonder if the large difference was more due to the increased tire width. I
thought LRR tires were only good for a few percentage points over regular
tires, maybe less than 4%?




> Rush-5 wrote:
> >
> >
> > WOW! What a difference in milage, with the Potenza's I got 60 mpg, with
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Greetings,



> AMPhibian wrote:
> 
> > The idea that you can't coast if you have regen on the accelerator pedal is
> > misguided.
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Hi Neil,

How long ago did you drive an ICE vehicle?
Unless you have one of the free-coasting variants
like the Trabant (only in higher gears to avoid engine braking
due to the fact that without fuel the engine also did not
receive lubrication as it is a 2-stroke) you will always have
the engine slowing you down as you go off the throttle
completely. To coast in an ICE you need to keep the throttle
open a little bit, or keep the clutch depressed 
(which incidently I do a lot when I drive a stickshift).
I have driven two vehicles that emulated this engine braking
behavior in the control of the EV regen.
One is my wife's Prius, the other my US Electricar EV.
With both vehicles it was no issue to coast and it felt
normal to have a little regen upon full release of the throttle
and that was exactly the design criterium for the Prius.

BTW the term accelerator is the right one for the pedal, it will
change the speed of the vehicle, either increase or retard and
both is the result of acceleration in a particular direction.
Some people go as far as promoting only one pedal with the 
coasting point halfway and max braking force when fully released.
But the "natural" feeling vehicles I have driven have at least
two pedals - accelerator and brake.
The accelerator gives a little regen, the brake application will
progressively increase regen to max before applying the
friction brakes.
In the US Electricar you could regen as hard as accelerate and
this was an axle-crunching 70kW (350V 200A) back into the pack.

Regards,

Cor van de Water
Director HW & Systems Architecture Group
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
Email: [email protected] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [email protected]
Tel: +1 408 383 7626 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Tel: +91 (040)23117400 x203 XoIP: +31877841130

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On
Behalf Of Neil Blanchard
Sent: Friday, May 14, 2010 7:19 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Which is more efficient, Regen or Coasting?

Greetings,



> AMPhibian wrote:
> 
> > The idea that you can't coast if you have regen on the accelerator
> > pedal is misguided.
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

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bWFuL2xpc3RpbmZvL2V2Cg==


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

On Thu, May 13, 2010 at 6:59 PM, David Dymaxion


> <[email protected]> wrote:
> > Can't you put the Prius shifter into neutral to coast?
> 
> Yes, but once you learn to feather the go pedal,
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

On Fri, May 14, 2010 at 7:48 AM, Neil Blanchard
<[email protected]>wrote:

> Greetings,
>
>


> AMPhibian wrote:
> >
> > > The idea that you can't coast if you have regen on the accelerator pedal
> > is
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Seth Rothenberg wrote:
> 
> > On Thu, May 13, 2010 at 6:59 PM, David Dymaxion
> > <[email protected]> wrote:
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

"Heat is the bullshit detector of efficiency claims. If a salesman tells
you a charger is 95% efficient but you cannot put your hand on the
heatsink, he is including it's use as a hot plate in his calculation" 
- Jeff Shanab 

Exhaust manifolds get HOT (75% of energy in a gallon of gass is given
off as heat)

Hince
Brakes get HOT
The controller heat sink warms up a bit during regen
Not using brakes or controller generates no heat at all
therfore coasting is more efficient than regen which is more
efficient than using brakes.


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

40-48% of energy is a very dubious number. Maybe they mean 40-48%
efficient during the regen process.

The reason I say dubious is that you would have to spend half the time
accelerating and 1.2 the time deceleration to even have enough available
to do this.

Instead, your profile looks like

|
|
| __________________
| / \
| / \
| / \ /
| / \ /
|/__________________________\___/____
a b c d e

>From a to b energy is expended to get to speed. The non loss part of
this is available for regen.
>From b to c you are overcoming rolling and wind resistance. None of this
is available for regen.
from c to d you can coast if people let you. or use regen.
When you do use regen, we apply the same effiency to the non-loss
section of the momentum and loss an equal amount.


so lets say you have 200wh/mile and 10 seconds of acceleration take
[email protected]
Lets also assum the drivetrain is 85% eff accros the board.

400A * 144V is 57,6kw
57.6kw for 10 seconds is only 160wh becasue of the short duration
now we drive a mile to the next stoplight
200wh/mile * 1 mile is 200w

Now we use regen
160wh * .85 = 136wh (This is an unbeliveable eff for regen, I think
below 50% is more reality)
200 + 160 -136 is 224wh

what about coasting.
First of all we cut off power earlier lets say
160 to accelerate then coast to a stop
160wh which is less than 224wh

Now you can see where in general the more stop and starts and the longer
you are forced to wait before beginning to slow down, the more effective
regen will be at recovering what would otherwise be wasted.

But mainly regen saves brakes and gives an off throttle compression
breaking that people like. Especially going down a hill.




> Hello,
>
> 
>> > Yep, coasting wins. Braking is wasting wether its friction or regen. Though you do get approx 10% to 15% of the energy back that
>> > you put into accelerating with the regen, the friction brakes make you lose it all ;-) 
>> 
>
> The folks at Carnegie Mellon in the ChargeCar.org are using a relatively small supercapacitor along with their lead acid batteries -- and they are regaining 40-48% of their energy. That's FOURTY to nearly FIFTY PERCENT...
>
> They are also loading the batteries about HALF as much, and the internal temperature in the batteries is about 50% cooler; reducing the Peukert's Affect. The supercapacitor is 1/500th of the battery capacity, and it acts as a "high current cache".
>
> So, it depends on the regeneration system and on your batteries, how much energy you can regain. Heating the brakes is total waste, as you noted.
>
> Sincerely, Neil
> http://neilblanchard.vox.com/library/posts/
>
>
>
>
>
> 

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

What year do you have?
My 2002 had no problem shifting to neutral and even reverse
while driving forward.
The only effect of shifting to neutral is that the electric
motors do not receive any power, so if the engine it running
it will not stop and if the engine was not running then it
cannot be started - this may lead to over-revving one of
the motors if you are coasting downhill and picking up speed.

Moving into reverse while driving has as only effect that
now the accelerator pedal has negative acceleration, it will
slow you down (regen) and after coming to stop will start 
moving you backwards seamlessly.

The trick to feathering the pedal (and all fine accelerator
control) is to plant your heel on the floor, rest your small
toe against the wall next to the pedal and "tilt" your foot
to give small increments/decrements.

Or buy a real heavy vehicle, like I heard a gal drive behind
me the other day:
BRRRRRRRRRR ------------ BRRRRRRRRRRRR ----------- BRRRRRRRRRR
with enough mass the on/off throttle control will even out....

Cor van de Water
Director HW & Systems Architecture Group
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
Email: [email protected] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [email protected]
Tel: +1 408 383 7626 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Tel: +91 (040)23117400 x203 XoIP: +31877841130

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On
Behalf Of corbin dunn
Sent: Friday, May 14, 2010 10:27 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Which is more efficient, Regen or Coasting?




> Seth Rothenberg wrote:
> 
> > On Thu, May 13, 2010 at 6:59 PM, David Dymaxion
> > <[email protected]> wrote:
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

The big auto manufacturers don't seem to like coasting. They have all 
designed their EVs to imitate ICEs with automatic transmissions. Let up 
the pedal, and you get "engine braking" (which is actually regenerative 
braking).

But, they have had an extremely fine line between driving and regen, 
that is all but impossible to find because they don't provide an ammeter 
to tell when you are there.

-- 
Lee A. Hart | Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave N | Forget the perfect offering
Sartell MN 56377	| There is a crack in everything
leeahart earthlink.net	| That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Just for fun, I tried to think of cases where regen might beat coasting.

One thought was, what if the batteries are endothermic under charging? Does that change the heat argument at all?

Here's another thought: "coasting > regen > braking" I think is generally true, but what about a case with sharp corners? As a test case, imagine 2 cones where you make a figure 8 around them, and have to maintain an average time per lap. The coaster is going to have to make much bigger loops, and maintain a higher speed since he is going further. The regenner can do a much shorter path, and keep lower speeds. Depending on the cone placement and time requirement, the coaster might have to go twice as far as the regenner, and maintain twice the average speed.

Obviously Jeff is right for 99+% of driving, but this could be food for thought for a range event or racing.



________________________________
From: Jeff Shanab <[email protected]>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Fri, May 14, 2010 11:26:51 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Which is more efficient, Regen or Coasting?

"Heat is the bullshit detector of efficiency claims. If a salesman tells
you a charger is 95% efficient but you cannot put your hand on the
heatsink, he is including it's use as a hot plate in his calculation" 
- Jeff Shanab 

Exhaust manifolds get HOT (75% of energy in a gallon of gass is given
off as heat)

Hence
Brakes get HOT
The controller heat sink warms up a bit during regen
Not using brakes or controller generates no heat at all
therfore coasting is more efficient than regen which is more
efficient than using brakes.



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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

And that's if all you do is accelerate and decelerate continuously. 
Obviously if most of your energy is used actually cruising to point B 
the that leaves way less of your total pack energy for you to even 
recover during regen braking. I thought I'd seen average numbers in 
the 10% to 15% range for typical driving on a cruising course and only 
slightly higher for a stop-n-go course. This is of course a 
comparison of total emergy put back in due to regen compared to what 
was in the pack from the start.

Mike



> Lee Hart <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> > On 5/14/2010 12:43 PM, Jeff Shanab wrote:
> >> 40-48% of energy is a very dubious number. Maybe they mean 40-48%
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

One would be long downhill coasting where you want to maintain constant speed. But you won't make me believe you can get back 48%
of the energy it took you to up the hill in the first place. Like Lee says, 40% might be pushing it. And that's only in the case
where there is no constant speed driving in between accelerating and decelerating during the whole drive 

Mike

> -----Original Message-----
> From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of David Dymaxion
> Sent: Friday, May 14, 2010 1:36 PM
> To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Which is more efficient, Regen or Coasting?
> 
> Just for fun, I tried to think of cases where regen might beat coasting.
> 
> One thought was, what if the batteries are endothermic under charging? Does that change the heat argument at
> all?
> 
> Here's another thought: "coasting > regen > braking" I think is generally true, but what about a case with sharp
> corners? As a test case, imagine 2 cones where you make a figure 8 around them, and have to maintain an
> average time per lap. The coaster is going to have to make much bigger loops, and maintain a higher speed since
> he is going further. The regenner can do a much shorter path, and keep lower speeds. Depending on the cone
> placement and time requirement, the coaster might have to go twice as far as the regenner, and maintain twice the
> average speed.
> 
> Obviously Jeff is right for 99+% of driving, but this could be food for thought for a range event or racing.
> 
> 
> 
> ________________________________
> From: Jeff Shanab <[email protected]>
> To: [email protected]
> Sent: Fri, May 14, 2010 11:26:51 AM
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Which is more efficient, Regen or Coasting?
> 
> "Heat is the bullshit detector of efficiency claims. If a salesman tells
> you a charger is 95% efficient but you cannot put your hand on the
> heatsink, he is including it's use as a hot plate in his calculation"
> - Jeff Shanab 
> 
> Exhaust manifolds get HOT (75% of energy in a gallon of gass is given
> off as heat)
> 
> Hence
> Brakes get HOT
> The controller heat sink warms up a bit during regen
> Not using brakes or controller generates no heat at all
> therfore coasting is more efficient than regen which is more
> efficient than using brakes.
> 
> 
> 
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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Hi Cor, 

> How long ago did you drive an ICE vehicle?
> Unless you have one of the free-coasting variants
> like the Trabant (only in higher gears to avoid engine braking
> due to the fact that without fuel the engine also did not
> receive lubrication as it is a 2-stroke) you will always have
> the engine slowing you down as you go off the throttle
> completely. To coast in an ICE you need to keep the throttle
> open a little bit, or keep the clutch depressed 
> (which incidently I do a lot when I drive a stickshift).
> I have driven two vehicles that emulated this engine braking
> behavior in the control of the EV regen.

I put in the clutch, or put it into neutral to coast.

Aside: in an ICE vehicle, you can downshift and use the engine to brake -- and it shuts off the fuel *entirely* (with fuel injection). Which is not as good as regenerative braking, but it is better than idling. So, the same rules apply to ICE as to EV's: coast when possible, and use regen/engine braking to slow down when needed and use friction brakes as little as possible.

It's called ecodriving, and it always helps the efficiency, no matter what the vehicle is powered with.

Sincerely, Neil
http://neilblanchard.vox.com/library/posts/




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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

I think that most of you are using different assumptions than those
stating the 40-48%. I took it to mean 40-48% of the kinetic energy of
the vehicle is converted back to kinetic energy upon extraction from
the batteries. I remember Tesla stating on one of their blogs a while
back that the maximum recoverable energy was some where around 68% or
so. Maybe it was 82% of 82%.



> Mike Willmon <[email protected]> wrote:
> > One would be long downhill coasting where you want to maintain constant s=
> peed. But you won't make me believe you can get back 48%
> > of the energy it took you to up the hill in the first place. Like Lee =
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

On 14/05/2010 7:48 AM, Neil Blanchard wrote:
> Greetings,
>
>


> AMPhibian wrote:
> >
> >> The idea that you can't coast if you have regen on the accelerator
> >> pedal is misguided.
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

It took very little time for me to get used to controlling my vehicle mostly
with the accelerator pedal and I find it much more convenient to use one
pedal most of the time. As has been mentioned it's much like driving a high
compression ICE with a manual transmission. Controller programming can be
setup to allow a larger "neutral" section on the pedal to allow easier
coasting, and you can dynamically control the level of regen. It's easy,
and fun.




> Neil Blanchard wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

I would love single peddle operation for road racing and autocrossing,
Awsome trailbreaking to corner exit transition!
But I could imagine that this is a feature I would want to have selectable.

How about this
If you squeeze off the throttle, ie rate of movement is controlled by
your foot, you have smooth transition to max regen as you lift,
If you remove your foot, it is coasting. This can be a surface switch or
a rate of return faster than normal.

> It took very little time for me to get used to controlling my vehicle mostly
> with the accelerator pedal and I find it much more convenient to use one
> pedal most of the time. As has been mentioned it's much like driving a high
> compression ICE with a manual transmission. Controller programming can be
> setup to allow a larger "neutral" section on the pedal to allow easier
> coasting, and you can dynamically control the level of regen. It's easy,
> and fun.
> 

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Hello Robert,

> I think that's a matter of personal experience. If you are used to 
> driving a manual gearbox, you are automatically used to having "Feet off 
> pedals = Decelerate", as the manual gearbox means you get engine 
> braking.

Which is a good thing if you need to slow down -- it shuts off the fuel and you get "infinite" FE. But if you need to coast, put it into neutral.

> If you only drive automatics, then the torque converter makes 
> this impossible.

Not really, you can either put it in a lower gear manually and get the same engine braking (and shut off the fuel), or you can put it into neutral and coast.

> The next question is if you want the accelerator pedal, 
> from standstill, to work like a manual car (feet off all pedals = no 
> movement) or like an automatic (feet off pedals = creep). Personally I 
> think "creep" is something that should be entirely eliminated from all 
> cars, as a safety feature if nothing else, but it's become so much of an 
> expected part of the "automatic gearbox experience" that to remove it 
> would cause more problems than it is worth.


Well, I think that "creep" conflicts with having regen on the accelerator pedal -- how can the same range on the pedal position do both? Having creep "fights" the brakes, and this is part of why automatics get lower FE than manuals.

Why would you want to build in a conflict? I'm not interested in making things the same as they are now -- I want things to work as well as possible for efficiency.

I ecodrive all the time now, and when you have to find that "perfect" spot on the accelerator, it takes a lot of concentration, and makes the muscles in my leg tired on long drives. I love to be able to coast with no feet on the pedals, if for no other reason than to rest my leg and relax it...

Check out my blog entry on ecodriving: http://neilblanchard.vox.com/library/post/what-is-ecodriving.html

Sincerely, Neil
http://neilblanchard.vox.com/library/posts/




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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Drivers,all: I haven't had a California license since 1970, but in
Pennsylvania and Florida, on the Driving exam for personal as well as for
"CDL" we were always told to travel with the vehicle in neutral was
illegal. So was "Coasting" without the engine in gear, you can press the
clutch when stopping and use the clutch for gear changing but to DRIFT or
COAST on the level or downhill was specifically prohibited. "High Milers
merely needed to use a high gear or Overdrive ratio, but not "Neutral" on
the road. I don't know that those laws have changed..
Regards,
Dennis Lee Miles (Director) E.V.T.I. inc.
www.E-V-T-I-Inc.COM
Phone (863) 944 - 9913
"Heat is the b--l s--t detector of efficiency claims. If a salesman tells
you a charger is 95% efficient but you cannot put your hand on the heatsink,
he is including it's use as a hot plate in his calculation"
- Jeff Shanab 
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++=
On Sat, May 15, 2010 at 6:17 PM, Neil Blanchard


> <[email protected]>wrote:
> 
> > Hello Robert,
> >
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Hello,

> Drivers,all: I haven't had a California license since 1970, but in
> Pennsylvania and Florida, on the Driving exam for personal as well as for
> "CDL" we were always told to travel with the vehicle in neutral was
> illegal. So was "Coasting" without the engine in gear, you can press the
> clutch when stopping and use the clutch for gear changing but to DRIFT or
> COAST on the level or downhill was specifically prohibited. "High Milers
> merely needed to use a high gear or Overdrive ratio, but not "Neutral" on
> the road. I don't know that those laws have changed..

Well, it is not illegal here in Massachusetts (except on the Mass Pike, for whatever reason).

You know, it may have made sense at the time to the lawmaker, but I don't think there is any basis in fact for this. I mean, all sorts of vehicle accelerate at different rates -- are they going to mandate some minimum acceleration for *safety*? A car can be put back into gear in a very short order, and it won't make any difference in the outcome of some hypothetical accident situation. As the driver, you have to access the situation -- I am scanning the mirrors, etc. for any sudden changes in my situation, and believe me, acceleration has never entered into an escape, and I am in full control of my car while I am coasting. I'll bet a car stops in less distance if it was already in neutral...

If they really want to prevent accidents, should they mandate that you hover your left foot over the brake at all times? It would reduce the reaction time! What about both hands on the steering wheel at all times (except while shifting)? What about eating or smoking (or shaving or putting on makeup)? Certainly, holding a cell phone to your ear makes it harder to turn your head it that direction, and don't get me started about texting...

We are talking about driving the most efficient way possible, right? That is important -- much more important now that we know the huge benefits. If we can't make rational decisions about driving our own vehicle, then the law should be changed.

Sincerely, Neil
http://neilblanchard.vox.com/library/post/what-is-ecodriving.html




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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> On 15 May 2010 at 23:24, someone wrote:
> 
> > I was taught to drive ... feet ... clutch ... accelerator ...
> > single-handed steering ... handbrake ... reversing ... parallel parking ...
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

It is still illegal and on the books to mechanically put it in neutral.
Here is why it was put on the books, in the mid 50-s I think.
The older transmissions would spin the internal parts so fast you could
not get it back in gear, brakes sucked so Freewheeling, what it was
called and actually provided and advertised on a few stock transmissions
before they new any better. Was quiet deadly.

It is important to note that regen vs coasting still maintains the
connection to the motor and allows you to get back on the accelerator.
There is some drivetrain loss, but I think it is better to maintain the
connection.

In most OEM AC electrics, the motor is always connected because of the
single speed transmission so this is not an issue.
We have to be careful as drivers of home built electrics, not to create
an issue becasue of our ability to use options that have a clutch, a
neutral and regen







> rivers,all: I haven't had a California license since 1970, but in
> Pennsylvania and Florida, on the Driving exam for personal as well as for
> "CDL" we were always told to travel with the vehicle in neutral was
> illegal. So was "Coasting" without the engine in gear, you can press the
> clutch when stopping and use the clutch for gear changing but to DRIFT or
> COAST on the level or downhill was specifically prohibited. "High Milers
> merely needed to use a high gear or Overdrive ratio, but not "Neutral" on
> the road. I don't know that those laws have changed..
> Regards,
> Dennis Lee Miles (Director) E.V.T.I. inc.
> www.E-V-T-I-Inc.COM
> Phone (863) 944 - 9913
> "Heat is the b--l s--t detector of efficiency claims. If a salesman tells
> you a charger is 95% efficient but you cannot put your hand on the heatsink,
> he is including it's use as a hot plate in his calculation"
> - Jeff Shanab  

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

O f course coasting is better when possible. I am a west coast Keen Koaster=
, ever since my first Honda 600. BUT.
My friend Bob explained to me exactly why coasting in a DC EV wasn't a good=
idea. You can burn up your brushes this way. Better to throw it in some=
high & useless gear, such as fourth. It works just as well.. My suggest=
ion is that you plan your "gliding" route with an uphill climb so you don't=
have to use your brakes so much. I am talking about an old school DC co=
nversion. =

I don't shop where I can't charge.




=

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

How exactly would you burn your brushes while coasting? Are you sure
you're not confusing coasting with stalling the motor under load?



> K O <[email protected]> wrote:
> > O f course coasting is better when possible. I am a west coast Keen Koast=
> er, ever since my first Honda 600. BUT.
> > My friend Bob explained to me exactly why coasting in a DC EV wasn't a go=
> ...


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