# Any new AC powered DIY sports cars?



## major (Apr 4, 2008)

2cycle said:


> Does anybody have any sports/race car conversions or custom builds that used a 150 to 200 hp AC motor? I would like to see more of these types of builds to get a good comparison to all the DC set ups. I know the DC route is soo much cheaper but the AC's seem to have a more comparable rpm range to the ICE it's replacing. I'm just not sold on any one yet for my project whenever that happens. I need some real apples to apples before I commit to such a project.


Hi 2cyc,

Nothing much recently. Of course you have the Tesla Roadster, but unlikely you're looking for it. Then some others I have seen or know about:

http://www.proev.com/index.htm 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AC_Propulsion_tzero 

http://www.circletrack.com/eventcoverage/ctrp_0204_formula_lightning_cars/index.html 

http://green.autoblog.com/2010/07/2...a-seca-gives-kleenspeed-2nd-sportelectric-tt/ 

http://www.wrightspeed.com/wrightspeed-x1-prototype-electric-supercar 

And these guys use a kit car out of Detroit. So far just 3 of them, all DC. You could go AC.

http://www.detroitev.com/power-of-dc.php 

Overall, not much in the way of competition developing for EV circuit racers of the 4 wheel variety. That's why I got into the 2 wheeler to satisfy my electric-go-fast jones. There was an interesting 4 wheel EV set a record in the Pike's Peak run this year. Used the ACPropulsion drive, I think.

All it takes is money 

major


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## DavidDymaxion (Dec 1, 2008)

Not for sale any more, but AC Propulsion's Tzero was another basis for comparison, plus they have a new electric mini:

http://www.acpropulsion.com


major said:


> Hi 2cyc,
> 
> Nothing much recently. Of course you have the Tesla Roadster, but unlikely you're looking for it. Then some others I have seen or know about:
> 
> ...


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## 2cycle (Jul 2, 2009)

I forgot about a couple of those cars. I like the simplicity and raw nature of the Wrightspeed. That's my kind of project. I want to start with a simple project first but the nature of the DC set ups that I see being used that are all torque and no rpm/hp just doesn't cut it for me. Plus I plan to use a transmission so I can achieve optimum performance at any speed. I know people are thinking "you don't need a transmission, or why the need to go that fast" and all I have to say is "if I have to expain it then you probably wouldn't understand." 
I have two projects that I want to use the same motor in because they happen to each need about 130 hp ish to do what I want it to do speed wise. 
I found a nice motor, at least the specs look like what I want, but I'm sure the price is through the roof. Even the size and weight of the motor is perfect. The only problem being that high a voltage needs a massive load of cells.
Anyway it's one of those Cal Motors which nobody has ever seen but they sure have the specs I want.

GP450A CONTROLLER
Operating Voltage 350V Nominal
240 - 450 VDC

Operating Voltage 650V Nominal
240-820 VDC

Peak Current
450 A (RMS)

Rated Current
225 A (RMS)

Switching Frequency
4.0 - 8.0 kHz

Min Coolant Flow (50/50 Glycol / H2O)
5 l/min

Inlet Coolant Temp
55 °C / 155 °F

Max Inlet Coolant Pressure
2.0 Bar / 30 PSI

Weight
16 kg / 35 lbs

Dimensions (LxWxH)
556mm X 285mm X 155mm / 21.9” X 11.2” X 6.1”



GP200WC MOTOR
Peak Power
97 kW / 130 hp

Continuous Power
62 kW / 83 hp

Peak Torque
169 Nm / 125 lb-ft

Continuous Torque
94 Nm / 69 lb-ft

Maximum Speed
8800 RPM

Efficiency
96%

Min Coolant Flow (50/50 Glycol / H2O)
5 l/min

Inlet Coolant Temp
55 °C / 155 °F

Max Inlet Coolant Pressure
2.0 Bar / 30 PSI

Weight
50 kg / 109 lbs

Dimensions (LxWxH)
376mm X 185mm X 185mm / 14.8" X 7.3" X 7.3"


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## 2cycle (Jul 2, 2009)

Why do we not see more BLDC motors being used? What is their weak link sort of speak? The price seems a lot better than the AC set ups.


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

2cycle said:


> Why do we not see more BLDC motors being used? What is their weak link sort of speak? The price seems a lot better than the AC set ups.


BLDC is AC. Pretty much unavailable or very expensive if you can find it.


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## 2cycle (Jul 2, 2009)

major said:


> BLDC is AC. Pretty much unavailable or very expensive if you can find it.


I thought the BLDC was still a DC driven motor? Anyway, there was a thread a little while ago that was pushing a 100 hp or so BLDC set up for around $4200 with control. Am I thinking of something different? He represented a Chinese company I believe. What ever happened with that? 
That would have been a great motor for a medium sized 2-up snowmobile. The cost of something like that I think I can sell someone on. Traditionally snowmobilers are not very green minded so I don't have that selling point to that crowd. Spending lots of money is a norm for most of them so at least I have that going for me.


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## frodus (Apr 12, 2008)

BLDC and AC controllers are fairly similar. Both use 3-phases. BLDC control algorithms are slightly different. The motors are where the main difference is. They're both essentially AC driven motors, with a DC input to the controller.


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

2cycle said:


> I thought the BLDC was still a DC driven motor? Anyway, there was a thread a little while ago that was pushing a 100 hp or so BLDC set up for around $4200 with control. Am I thinking of something different? He represented a Chinese company I believe. What ever happened with that?


There seems to be a communication gap between China and the DIY. Last I heard, it was down to 40 kW and up to 80 Kg. I think there was one DIYer here who bought into a Chinese BLDC. Put it in his car. The inverter (controller) failed almost immediately. He rebuilt his inverter and runs it with acceptable performance, IIRC. 

BLDC always has been a misleading and poor choice for the system. Basically, when you run an AC motor from a battery (DC) you need an inverter (DC/AC converter). All commonly used inverters are 3 phase. So need 6 phase legs, meaning 6 switches (IGBTs or MOSFETs). This is true whether the motor is an induction motor or a permanent magnet motor. The PM motor can be driven by the inverter with different shaped AC waveform. If it is a sine wave, sometimes they call the motor a PMSM, Permanent Magnet Synchronous Machine. If it is more of a square wave, they can call it a BLDC, Brushless DC motor. Big deal 

So the difference is that the induction motor has a cast rotor and the PM motors have permanent magnets on or in the rotor. The stators pretty much look the same. On an equal playing field, the induction motor should cost less due to magnet cost. And the inverters (controllers) should cost the same. Some say the PM system has an efficiency advantage. Some say the induction motor has a control advantage. I say it doesn't amount to much and either can be suitable for an EV. I happen to favor the induction motor. That's what I'm used to. And I never want to try to disassemble the rotor from a large PM motor, in case I needed to change a bearing or something like that 

The two leading manufacturers of AC systems suitable for EV are UQM (BLDC) and ACPropulsion (Induction). Both offer 150 kW systems for approx $30,000. Neither will sell to John Q. Public. 

Right now, anything else you see is "want-to-be" advertising. Buyer beware 

Regards,

major


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## 2cycle (Jul 2, 2009)

major said:


> There seems to be a communication gap between China and the DIY. Last I heard, it was down to 40 kW and up to 80 Kg. I think there was one DIYer here who bought into a Chinese BLDC. Put it in his car. The inverter (controller) failed almost immediately. He rebuilt his inverter and runs it with acceptable performance, IIRC.
> 
> BLDC always has been a misleading and poor choice for the system. Basically, when you run an AC motor from a battery (DC) you need an inverter (DC/AC converter). All commonly used inverters are 3 phase. So need 6 phase legs, meaning 6 switches (IGBTs or MOSFETs). This is true whether the motor is an induction motor or a permanent magnet motor. The PM motor can be driven by the inverter with different shaped AC waveform. If it is a sine wave, sometimes they call the motor a PMSM, Permanent Magnet Synchronous Machine. If it is more of a square wave, they can call it a BLDC, Brushless DC motor. Big deal
> 
> ...


Good info., you've ruined my day, but good info. 

I wish this stuff was as cut and dry as engines, with changing demands I know which engines to use for best results. Motors not only have huge price differences ($/hp) but they also can require very different batt packs. 
I really don't care to use a 3000 rpm motor, 6000 rpm is do-able. I really need lots of hp from a small (light weight) motor for the speeds I'm looking for. I've done enough testing with the vehicles in question and I know the hp and the top speed it can reach with that hp so I have pretty cut and dry guidelines.
This all goes back to my original questions I had when I first registered to this site, I think we need a sort of "master list" of all available motors' performances so we can make informed choices. When I look at motor specs they give continuous hp not a MAX for all given voltages. And the rpm ratings don't really give you the whole picture. I want to know stuff like 10 second ratings. 30 second ratings. 
Plus the part that frustrates me most is not knowing enough about these motors to help engineer better ones for our cause.


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

2cycle said:


> Good info., you've ruined my day, but good info.


Sorry dude. That's what us motor dorks do 



> I think we need a sort of "master list" of all available motors' performances so we can make informed choices.


Some have tried. http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showthread.php?p=61212#post61212 From this page: http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showthread.php?t=669 

I'm not saying that the chart is that useful. Just that there has been an attempt. 

So how many ICEngines have been made for vehicles? 100's of millions? Maybe billions? And how many people work with them? And how did you learn about them? Like your Dad, brother, employer? Did you know everything the first day?

O.K. Electric motors for vehicles. How many? How many people work with them? Anybody there to show you the ropes? See where I'm going?

I have a much, much easier time with electric motors that those stupid ICEngines. But that just makes me a motor dork 

major


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## efan (Aug 27, 2009)

has anyone heard of 

120 Kw Flux Vector AC Traction Controller? or company EMS?

this conversion uses the:
http://www.evalbum.com/377


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

efan said:


> has anyone heard of
> 
> 120 Kw Flux Vector AC Traction Controller? or company EMS?
> 
> ...


Yeah efan,

I know that guy. He designed and built the controller himself and eventually started and operated a company named EMS which built similar controllers for specialized vehicles. They are no longer in business. And the van has not run for a number of years. It was pretty nice for its time running on Pb-acid.

Regards,

major


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

2cycle said:


> Does anybody have any sports/race car conversions or custom builds that used a 150 to 200 hp AC motor?.


Hey 2cycle,

Let's put one of those electric drives in this 

major


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## 2cycle (Jul 2, 2009)

now that's what I'm talkin about. To me that is performance beauty. I really like what Todd is doing with his hot rod. I just need some customers to want to do a project like this and it's "game on"


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## 2cycle (Jul 2, 2009)

major said:


> I have a much, much easier time with electric motors that those stupid ICEngines. But that just makes me a motor dork
> 
> major


It's funny you say it like that. When I was working for an OEM in engine development our dept head was an engineer with lots of top fuel engine experience and one day this well educated man uttered a statement much like yours he said " give me a 500 cubic inch V8 and I'll show you 7000 hp, but I just don't understand how in the hell a two cycle engine works".

What frustrates me is my father has been a field service guy in drive systems for all the big companies GE, Allen Bradley, ABB, and others most of my life. We have always had motors or drives laying around for as long as I can remember but he never taught me anything about them. I've spent the last 19 years after high school learning about engines and never giving electric motors a thought until now. Kind of ironic really. Now that my father is getting close to retirement maybe I can get him into these EV's and teach me a thing or two.


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## drivin98 (May 9, 2008)

major said:


> Hey 2cycle,
> 
> Let's put one of those electric drives in this
> 
> major


Dude! What is that? Looks like it's at Bonneville.


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

drivin98 said:


> Dude! What is that? Looks like it's at Bonneville.


RCR SuperLite Nemesis (Suzuki ICE powered) at VIRginia (I think).


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

These look interesting: http://www.evo-electric.com/ 










Not cheap but they will actually sell to you. This guy used one: http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showpost.php?p=208976&postcount=22


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## efan (Aug 27, 2009)

hey major, from what I understand you work with the lightning racing in TTXGP. Is this the same motorcycle using motor from an EV1? what controller is the motorcycle using? is it available for diyers?


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

efan said:


> hey major, from what I understand you work with the lightning racing in TTXGP. Is this the same motorcycle using motor from an EV1? what controller is the motorcycle using? is it available for diyers?


Yes. Special from Balqon. No. Sorry.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Yes EV1 motor, controller from Balqon, http://www.balqon.com/ No you can't get one, as far as I know, unless Major will sneak some out the back door  Since Lightning has plans to make a production vehicle I assume they are working on a supply of motors and controllers from someone, unless they found a large stash of EV1 motors.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Ha, simul-post 


major said:


> Yes. Special from Baqcon. No. Sorry.


Who is this Baqcon you speak of


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

JRP3 said:


> Ha, simul-post  Who is this Baqcon you speak of


typo....go figure. Looks like pretty tasty meat


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## Scuderia Elettrica (Sep 10, 2011)

Not sure if this has been posted elsewhere on the site but here is the Rimac fully revealed: 

http://green.autoblog.com/2011/09/14/frankfurt-rimac-automobili-concept-one-revealed-w-video/

http://seriouswheels.com/cars/2013/top-2013-Rimac-Concept_One.htm


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Yeah there's a whole thread:
http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showthread.php/crodriver-has-secret-61267.html


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## Scuderia Elettrica (Sep 10, 2011)

Thanks for the redirection


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