# Electric Motors for Accessories



## dpringle (Jun 17, 2008)

OK guys, I've been looking all over (the net) trying to figure out what I want to do as far as power the accessories on this car...

refresher: 1995 Ford Probe GT. Keeping AC and Power Steering.

Things I have considered: Keeping all original parts and fabricating a mount for the PS pump and AC compressor and running them off of a motor. That motor would be powered by the HV Pack, not the 12V system. I was considering a treadmill motor since they seem to be around 130V DC and 1.5 - 2 HP (depending on model) and can be had for under $180 on ebay. 

Another possibility is that I replace the PS Pump with an electric version and the AC Compressor with a combined motor/compressor like this one. The problem is I don't know where to find either. I know that the Prius uses an electric PS Pump, so I could probably buy one for a small fortune from Toyota. I did a google search on the AC motor/compressor and couldn't find a supplier.... If you know of a supplier please submit a link.

Two treadmill motors that I considered:
Number one (Too high RPM?)
Number two (Might not handle 144V)

Please give me your thoughts on this. Is a 1.5HP motor strong enough to power both? Efficient enough?

(rctous: thanks for taking a look)


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## TheSGC (Nov 15, 2007)

I got a 1.5-2.5 HP treadmill motor from SurplusCenter.com for $20 and is rated at 1.5 HP @ 96 volts and 2.5 HP @ 130 volts. It should be able to do both the AC and PS at the same time.


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## dpringle (Jun 17, 2008)

This the one?


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## TheSGC (Nov 15, 2007)

dpringle said:


> This the one?


That is the exact one. I am in the proccess of making the mounting brakets for it, and I managed to take the once of the pulleys from the ICE and attached it to the motor. The spindle was actually the perfect size and diameter, all I need now is a nut to mount it down.

BTW, I put 12 volts to the motor and it spun up perfectly fine.


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## TelnetManta (Jun 5, 2008)

Do you plan to run the treadmill motor directly from your HV pack via a contactor? I know that you have the ability to build your own controller so I wondered. I want to do as you two have described but would like to have the ability to vary the motors speed depending on power requirements (AC Temp and PS on or off).

Ben


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## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

good point for having 2 motors as you will certainly not have the AC on all the time and I can't imagine wanting the power steering motor running all the time either. Especially when stopped at a light, that would be a total waste of battery power. I think two motors is the only way to go, to be most efficient any way. Also with one motor it will always be turning the pulley on the AC even though its may be off, that must add some extra drag


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## TelnetManta (Jun 5, 2008)

You could utilize the A/C clutch and use a setup of two relays to control when the contactor for the motor is on. One relay would be on if the A/C was required, this relay would activate the contactor and engage the clutch while another would just activate the contactor when the PS was needed. This way a single motor could be used for both. 

There will obviously be some losses. I had thought about trying to adapt a clutch to the PS pump but decided that the complexity and extra power requirement would be at least as bad. It's all still in my head but maybe one of you guys will pave the way for me 


Ben


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## dpringle (Jun 17, 2008)

hmmm.... was trying to figure out a way to use this....

http://www.surpluscenter.com/item.asp?UID=2008082420492786&item=1-2335&catname=electric


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## dpringle (Jun 17, 2008)

OK, I ordered two of those motors. A: not sure if I will use one or two motor setup B: will have backup if for any reason motor fails C: It's only twenty bucks and the shipping didn't change much to add another D: If I don't use one, it will give me a little incentive to create a new project in the future to use it on.... he he


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## TheSGC (Nov 15, 2007)

My A/C compressor has a built in clutch and I would be using the power steering quite a bit so the motor will be left on most of the time.


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## dpringle (Jun 17, 2008)

This is how I think I am doing it, but for the price I got two. 

How are you going to wire your motor in?


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## dimitri (May 16, 2008)

See this thread if you want to use MR2 Spyder PS pump

http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showthread.php/electric-ps-pump-mr2-17600.html

its same one the BMW guy is using. Works great in my Miata. I would have hard time mounting treadmill motor with pulley, this PS pump is all in one, very compact, although a little more expensive than $20 motor 

I think treadmill motor is perfect fit for A/C , I would definitely go for it, maybe in my next conversion.


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## dpringle (Jun 17, 2008)

I can't find a cost on one of these pumps... how much was it?


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## booksix (Aug 26, 2008)

hi, I'm new here... just researching for a potential build but want to share an idea that branched from all my car building:

Running a PS pump with a full time motor can not only give you full time PS but the PS pump can be connected to a hydraboost brake booster (not vac assist) and you will have power brakes off the same pump with no need for a vac pump or canister. Then, simply run your a/c on the same motor and use the stock a/c relay to engage/disengage the a/c compressor... 3 accessories, one motor


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

The only problem with that is it's not necessary to run PS all the time, and if you do you're wasting energy.


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## dpringle (Jun 17, 2008)

Ok, booksix, I looked up the hydroboost system on Summit Racing... wow, what a cool idea. Can get rid of all of the bulky parts of the brake system and power the brakes off of the power steering pump. I agree with JRP3, though, in that I might want to turn it off at times to conserve power. However, running one motor instead of 2 (or three) to run accessories might end up saving power in the long run. I believe most conversions will still need some sort of vacuum, though for some other functions such as heater/ac switching at the dash and such. I can't believe that vacuum switches are still used, but they are.... such a PIA when you have a leak and can't find it.

only big drawback to the Hydroboost idea is cost.... $1000 for a kit.


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## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

I still think that using switches to turn on the power steering motors when the steering wheel is turned 5-10 degrees would be a viable option so the motor turns on automatically when the wheel gets turned, the vaccumm pump does not take up very much room, also not sure 1.5 hp is enough to power 3 accessories.

brian


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## TelnetManta (Jun 5, 2008)

Weren't those 2.5hp? I still want to know how you guys plan to control/power them. Full battery voltage or a small pwm controller? I have 144V pack voltage so direct power has me a bit concerned.


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## booksix (Aug 26, 2008)

wow! I'm retarded! I just did a massive HVAC project in m car and totally forgot about the vac switches!! LOL hmm... it was a good idea though! Hydroboost has a much better brake feel and performance if you're into that.

does anyone make a rack and pinion that has a 12v motor right on it? I'm going to look into that. I do agree that having them switch on and of is better, I was just saying for those going simple (having the PS run all the time) this could simplify things.


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## dpringle (Jun 17, 2008)

Toyota has an electric PS pump in the prius and apparently a few other cars....

GM did an electric brake pump for a while, too... not sure if they still do.


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## PatricioIN (Jun 13, 2008)

dpringle said:


> Toyota has an electric PS pump in the prius and apparently a few other cars....
> 
> GM did an electric brake pump for a while, too... not sure if they still do.


I think the new Scions are all Electric Power steering.. I KNOW the Yaris is...


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## booksix (Aug 26, 2008)

my car actually came with an electric brake booster. actually, an electric pump inside the booster created hydraulic pressure. the car is an 88 Thunderbird Turbo Coupe. Came with the electric boost that also incorporated ABS into one unit. I should switch back to that. wonder if that could be a swap for some of you guys.

also, I do know there are a couple electric PS pumps but I was wondering if there were any rack and pinion units that used some kind of servo to actuate it, no pump at all.. that'd be really cool


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## dpringle (Jun 17, 2008)

oh, you're looking for an electric steering system... not the pump.... ok, now where did I hear of someone using one of those ... hmmm... gimme time.


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## dpringle (Jun 17, 2008)

Wikipedia post is here....

but I can't remember what car uses one.


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## dpringle (Jun 17, 2008)

More links

http://delphi.com/manufacturers/auto/other/steering/electric/eps/
http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do/News/articleId=123613

apparently Honda uses them in the s2000
http://www.nsxprime.com/FAQ/Technical/eps.htm

I assume that if you called the parts dept at any dealership, they could tell you which ones are electric and how much.... get a part number, then look it up online to maybe find a cheaper price.....

This would be a great idea for someone who is doing a total custom EV creation.


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## rsandberg (May 15, 2008)

FYI,

This the one?

The specs on this motor show non-continuous duty without a fan (running at 130 VDC). Continuous OK at 96 VDC.

Considering a PS pump doesn't present a load all the time, you may be OK.

Not sure how hard it would be to cool it. Nice price.

Rick


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## dimitri (May 16, 2008)

Don't confuse EPS ( Electric Power Steering , no fluids, electric motor assists steering via gears ) with EHPS ( Electric Hydraulic Power Steering, conventional fluid based rack, electric pump to create fluid pressure).

While EPS is a very cool option, IMHO its very difficult and expensive to install in typical conversion, requires massive rack rework, etc. Also, some EPS systems have questionable quality, google for Pontiac power steering lemon.

When I searched how to enable PS in my Miata conversion, the most elegant and cost effective option was to add EHPS pump, pretty much the only pump available is from Toyota MR2. Now, I understand that I could use a motor and the pulley and switches and controllers, etc. and probably would end up with a decent solution, but why would I do all that when I can take existing all in one solution created by Toyota engineers? Again, not to put down those who like to tinker or save few bucks, my total respect to those, but I personally wanted to drive my car ASAP, so I went for simplest, although a little more expensive route.

As for wasting power, my PS pump uses 4 amps while idle, its 48 Watts, compared to what main motor takes its a drop in a bucket, wouldn't even worry about it.

Just my humble opinion.


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## booksix (Aug 26, 2008)

Hmm, NM... the more I think about it the more I prefer a pump over an electric rack. Since all racks are different they'd present lots of bumpsteer issues due to different geometry. My car needs to handle.

So, a pump with a motor built in, but what tells it when it needs to run? A conroller that triggers off the VSS and switches it on under 15-20 mph?


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## booksix (Aug 26, 2008)

Ok, sorry, posted at the same time. So does the mr2 pump include sensors/triggers to tell it when to kick on? Also, is there a page that has the hydraulic pressure output to see if it would under, over or properly power my rack?


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## dimitri (May 16, 2008)

See this thread http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showthread.php/electric-ps-pump-mr2-17600.html

This pump has built-in controller, you can feed VSS signal for even better results, but I am not currently using it, so it just runs idle until I turn the wheel, idle current is about 4 Amps, nothing to worry about.

I just wish these pumps were more available and less expensive, I was lucky to find it on Ebay, but I overpaid, it should't cost $250.


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## dpringle (Jun 17, 2008)

rsandberg said:


> FYI,
> 
> Not sure how hard it would be to cool it. Nice price.
> 
> Rick


Was thinking I might just screw a fan blade on the end of the shaft... let it cool itself.


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## booksix (Aug 26, 2008)

doesn't sound that bad considering they are $500 new from AutoZoo. Did you get the pigtails with it from ebay? It'd be hard to wire up without those to start with!


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## dimitri (May 16, 2008)

booksix said:


> doesn't sound that bad considering they are $500 new from AutoZoo. Did you get the pigtails with it from ebay? It'd be hard to wire up without those to start with!


See the link posted in the technical thread, apparently you can get it for $50-$100 bucks from various junk yards.

As for pigtails, it didn't come with those, so I had to make my own connectors, then once everything was plugged in and tested I filled harnesses with caulk to hold wires in place, also tied wires to the mounting bracket to minimize movement, should work fine I think.


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## polygonfla (Aug 15, 2008)

The first post in this thread Dpringle asked, where to get the all in one AC motor/compressor. that he posted a link to an example photo. This is the company that makes it but they don't list prices on-line as far as I can see.

http://www.masterflux.com/


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## dpringle (Jun 17, 2008)

dimitri.... Thanks for the great info in the Wiki.... I saw some parts as low as $50 for this pump.... cheap enough to buy this and try... then the other motor I bought could run just the AC... hmmm.... 

How difficult was that pressure line to rig up anyway?
Oh, and I assume the wiring diagram you put up relates to a Miata?


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## dimitri (May 16, 2008)

Actually wiring diagram is from Toyota MR2 where this pump belongs, second picture is my simplified diagram for general EV usage. There is nothing specific to my Miata in there.

Pressure line was easy once I found the line with correct fittings on both ends. I was lucky that Mazda and Toyota use same size fitting, so I just used a line from Toyota. 

In any case, making custom pressure line should be within skill set of average EV converter.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Many parts stores can make up custom high pressure lines while you wait.


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