# Lithium Ion to be obsolete soon?



## Hollie Maea (Dec 9, 2009)

It's also not rechargeable...

Edit: yes, I see the part where they say it is "rechargeable". No, adding water isn't "recharging". It's replenishing the electrolyte. That's why they say you can recharge it "several times". After 4 or 5 times replenishing the electrolyte, the electodes are gone and have to be replaced.


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## nimblemotors (Oct 1, 2010)

There is always something better 'just over the horizon'.
Aluminum itself takes a huge amount of energy to create, which is why it can be so dense. How do they create aluminum?

Kudo's for Tesla's battery factory not waiting for 'tomorrow', when we need to fix the fossil fuel problem 'today', and we can already with current technology.
Any improvements will just make it even better, and no reason their factory can't retool.


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## PhantomPholly (Aug 20, 2008)

Hollie Maea said:


> It's also not rechargeable...
> 
> Edit: yes, I see the part where they say it is "rechargeable". No, adding water isn't "recharging". It's replenishing the electrolyte. That's why they say you can recharge it "several times". After 4 or 5 times replenishing the electrolyte, the electodes are gone and have to be replaced.


Right. But if it's cheap enough and renewable, "replacement" becomes just another means of "recharging."


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## PhantomPholly (Aug 20, 2008)

nimblemotors said:


> There is always something better 'just over the horizon'.
> Aluminum itself takes a huge amount of energy to create, which is why it can be so dense. How do they create aluminum?
> 
> Kudo's for Tesla's battery factory not waiting for 'tomorrow', when we need to fix the fossil fuel problem 'today', and we can already with current technology.
> Any improvements will just make it even better, and no reason their factory can't retool.


Yep. Competition is a wonderful thing.


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## Karter2 (Nov 17, 2011)

It would appear you didn't read the article too well..



> A standard aluminium-air reaction consumes the aluminum anode, which must be physically replaced rather than electrically recharged. But Fuji Pigment claims that, by adding strategically placed layers of ceramic and carbon, it has managed to suppress corrosion and reaction byproducts, creating an aluminium-air battery that can be recharged multiple times by simply adding water.


 So this one doesn't eat it's electrodes !
...and...


> . According to Dan Radomski, vice president for industry and venture development at the consulting firm NextEnergy, it would be very difficult for Tesla to pivot in response to these innovations. “It’s not too much different from us going from VHS to disc. It changes the entire supply chain.”


 ...and Tesla won't be able to simply "retool" the Giga factory,..
....but I guess they might have a big roof to work under whilst they replace everything....if they can get the technology sorted or licienced.
That might blow a little hole in Tesla's financials ?


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## Hollie Maea (Dec 9, 2009)

Karter2 said:


> It would appear you didn't read the article too well..
> 
> 
> So this one doesn't eat it's electrodes !


I read a different article that explained in more detail. "Multiple" times means "five". It said you could get 200 miles before you have to add water and 1000 miles before you have to replace the electrodes.


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## PhantomPholly (Aug 20, 2008)

So let's back up a bit.

The material is 50 times more energy-dense than Li-Ion, which makes it a bit more energy dense than diesel fuel or gasoline.

Let's assume mere parity for a moment and say roughly that 6 lbs = 30 miles of driving. If you are willing to go with a 600 lb pack (about what a Leaf carries) you could then drive 3,000 miles before replacing something (maybe electrodes, maybe whole pack). That is pretty dawgone good. So, a replaceable pack that lasts a couple of months in normal driving (one month for me, but I have a long commute).

Other parts of it suggest the whole thing is recyclable. Let's further assume that recycling can be done economically. If you are talking about a floating pool of batteries run on exchange like the propane gas cylinders for your bbq grille, this may well start to look like a commercial solution.

Maybe not for personal automobiles, at least not initially, but how about for big rigs and trains? If you could get better range off replaceable "tanks" for your big rig; get regeneration on the downhill instead of burning up your brakes when crossing the mountains while having better torque - this would be an incredible benefit for truckers and switching standard size packs the size of 50 gallon tanks at truck stops might actually be faster than refueling with gas.

So, agreed it's all still hypothetical - but this certainly has some potential.


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## Karter2 (Nov 17, 2011)

Hollie Maea said:


> I read a different article that explained in more detail. "Multiple" times means "five". It said you could get 200 miles before you have to add water and 1000 miles before you have to replace the electrodes.


Link ?
Were they referring to the same Fuji cell ?


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## Sunking (Aug 10, 2009)

There is a Vaporware company claim sto make Aluminium-Air and Zinc-Air batteries called Phinergy. They are looking pigeons, oops I mean Investors. They do not claim Secondary or Rechargeable batteries, just recyclable for endless cycle life. 

On the other hand Stanford University claims to have developed Aluminum Air rechargeable battery. They just have to figure out how to keep it from exploding.

Myself I think this is just another Green Mafia Blather from Green media like you found and Universities that constantly pump and dump junk research and technology that never sees the light of day or production.


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## Hollie Maea (Dec 9, 2009)

Karter2 said:


> Link ?
> Were they referring to the same Fuji cell ?


I can't find the link now. Might have been a different one. I can't find a number for the Fuji battery, just that "periodically" you have to change them. The fact that they aren't saying cost or cycle life isn't promising (we've all seen a billion breathless "game changer" reports). Even if you are getting like 10,000 miles before you have to ditch the battery, I would consider that pretty much DOA. No one wants a disposable battery.


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## Hollie Maea (Dec 9, 2009)

PhantomPholly said:


> The material is 50 times more energy-dense than Li-Ion, which makes it a bit more energy dense than diesel fuel or gasoline.


Well, they are saying that the THEORETICAL density is 50 times more than CURRENT Lithium batteries are. The actual numbers I've seen didn't look as promising (although they are a bit hard to follow because for some reason they were giving the numbers in "milliamps")




> Let's assume mere parity for a moment and say roughly that 6 lbs = 30 miles of driving. If you are willing to go with a 600 lb pack (about what a Leaf carries) you could then drive 3,000 miles before replacing something (maybe electrodes, maybe whole pack). That is pretty dawgone good. So, a replaceable pack that lasts a couple of months in normal driving (one month for me, but I have a long commute).


Depends entirely on the cost. If it's more than a couple of hundred bucks, then it's a terrible deal. I haven't seen any cost numbers yet, but I can't imagine getting a 600 pound battery for 50 bucks, even if it were "recyclable".


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## PhantomPholly (Aug 20, 2008)

Hollie Maea said:


> I can't find the link now. Might have been a different one. I can't find a number for the Fuji battery, just that "periodically" you have to change them. The fact that they aren't saying cost or cycle life isn't promising (we've all seen a billion breathless "game changer" reports). Even if you are getting like 10,000 miles before you have to ditch the battery, I would consider that pretty much DOA. No one wants a disposable battery.


Really? If you go 10k miles and then exchange a battery and it's cheap, I'll bet a lot of folks would jump at it.

Edit, just read your follow-on post. Yes, it all comes down to price. Until it is actually a consumer product, it is still vapor-ware. 

Still, it only takes one of these to succeed to change the world.


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## Hollie Maea (Dec 9, 2009)

PhantomPholly said:


> Really? If you go 10k miles and then exchange a battery and it's cheap, I'll bet a lot of folks would jump at it.
> 
> Edit, just read your follow-on post. Yes, it all comes down to price. Until it is actually a consumer product, it is still vapor-ware.
> 
> Still, it only takes one of these to succeed to change the world.


Certainly one of these big leaps in battery technology will come through at some point. It's still too early, IMO, to know where this will fit in. And it's DEFINITELY too early for breathless articles about how the gigafactory is "obsolete before it opens" because of this.

I tried to do some more digging, and couldn't find too much. Lots of articles repeating the same thing, a press release in Japanese that seemed to say roughly the same thing, and two papers from 2013 by Fuji Pigment. Hopefully the press release means that they have done mor development since 2013 and we will soon learn more.


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## PhantomPholly (Aug 20, 2008)

Hollie Maea said:


> Certainly one of these big leaps in battery technology will come through at some point. It's still too early, IMO, to know where this will fit in. And it's DEFINITELY too early for breathless articles about how the gigafactory is "obsolete before it opens" because of this.
> 
> I tried to do some more digging, and couldn't find too much. Lots of articles repeating the same thing, a press release in Japanese that seemed to say roughly the same thing, and two papers from 2013 by Fuji Pigment. Hopefully the press release means that they have done mor development since 2013 and we will soon learn more.


... or, it's another big nothing like EEStor...


Time will tell.


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## Moltenmetal (Mar 20, 2014)

Both zinc-air and aluminum-air secondary rechargeable batteries are possible in the long term, but there are major stumbling blocks at present. Does that make Li-ion "obsolete", either now or in 10-20 years? Just ask yourself: did Li-ion make lead-acid obsolete?

This article is just more proof that science journalism is an oxymoron.


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## Karter2 (Nov 17, 2011)

Moltenmetal said:


> ?... did Li-ion make lead-acid obsolete?
> .


Well, in terms of EV traction batteries, yes it did !
..and that is the application we are referring to.


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## Moltenmetal (Mar 20, 2014)

I'd argue that lead acid was no more a real option for vehicle traction batteries than it was to power cellphones. But the notion that something like a Zn air or Al air secondary battery will displace Li ion in a year or two in any application seems more than a little far fetched.


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## Karter2 (Nov 17, 2011)

Lead was used in all EV's (Zen, Myer, Corbin, Gem, Solectria , GM's EV1, etc) and industrial fork trucks etc,..
...until lithium became commercially available.
It's a reasonable argument to say that the Lithium cell actually made the domestic EV (car, motor bike, Ebike) a real possibility.
Some folk still build DIY EV conversions with lead, but that is simply due to lack of information and/or $$$'s


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## Moltenmetal (Mar 20, 2014)

I realize that lead was used in those vehicles, and indeed is still used in lots of fork trucks out there. That actually supports my point- even if a new Zn or Al superbattery breakthrough happens, it's not going to obsolete the Li-ion overnight. And it isn't going to happen overnight either- there's more than one Achilles' heel for Zn- or Al- air rechargeables, and they're not likely to be simultaneously and perfectly solved all at once. Incremental improvements are much more likely.


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## Karter2 (Nov 17, 2011)

Rate of conversion will depend on many factors, technical and financial.
Assuming the tech is sorted, if they save weight , space , and cost, then it will be quick.
But usually there are compromises....maybe the weight and size is good , but the price is higher than Li...or if they are cheaper, them maybe they need more space for the same capacity ?...etc etc
I suspect someone will be making big $$$'s of this if they get it to market at all.
Being realistic, no EV makes financial sense, either for manufacturers or users.
Manufacturers are only building them to comply with Gov requirements and using subsidies/grants to do so (Tesla still doesn't turn a profit) and customers are fooling themselves that saving fuel costs make all the compromises worth while !....


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## nimblemotors (Oct 1, 2010)

Really is a waste of time to speculate. Tesla isn't wasting time, they are building a factory to make batteries today.


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