# My Yamaha build



## lazzer408 (May 18, 2008)

I decided to move this project over to this forum for you guys to enjoy.

I picked up a '92 Yamaha FJ1200 chassis for my base. The original engine was blown and the owner started parting it out. Luckily I saved it before it was too late. A few things were missing like the gas tank, brake lever, clutch lever, side panels, seat latches, and sprocket. I've found most of it on ebay to get it back into a rolling chassis.


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## lazzer408 (May 18, 2008)

The motor is shown. Everything was in my Seadoo project but that's over. The controller is a 48v Curtis but I'll be gutting it and using my own mosfets, diodes and pwm drive circuit. I'll raise the controllers voltage to 120v. It's just cheaper that way and it'll do what I want it to. I'll have adjustable current limiting and throttle ramp to help prevent those nasty EV wheelies. =)


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## lazzer408 (May 18, 2008)

I'm one of those people who hates to waste anything. I thought it would be nice to make use of the handle-bar mounted kill switch.
The original kill switch grounds a wire to kill the engine but is normally open when in the run position. So how do I activate a relay with a normally open switch? Here's a quick little circuit that does that and can drive a relay when an open condition exhists (cheap and inverting). Just about any n-channel mosfet will do. The picture is just a test circuit to give you the idea. The killswitch will now deactivate EVERYTHING.








Quick explanation:
The 1k and 4.7k resistors make up a voltage divider that feeds the mosfet's gate turning it on. The now conducting mosfet grounds the relay. When the kill switch is grounded the gate is pulled low (0v) and the mosfet turns off. The diode across the relay coil catches spikes when the coil de-energizes. All your relays, including the main contactor, should use one. 
______________________________________________________________________________________________
Here is the same circuit with the start latch.








Quick explanation:
When the key is put into the on position, 12v is applied to the relay's n.o. contact. The relay will not activate yet because it's coil is wired to the other n.o. contact. When the start button is pressed the relay activates and closes keeping itself on because the relay's switch contacts are now closed. Turning off the ignition switch will cause the relay to deactivate. Grounding the kill switch will also cause the relay to deactivate. It will not latch again until the key is turned on and the start button is pushed.
You can connect a small lamp or led across the normally closed contact to let you know it's not on =) This is what I did in my EV Geo. I had it light the alternator light since the dc-dc wouldn't be on if the relay was off. Like I said. I don't like to waste things. =)

The circuit makes a nice interface to an ICE's stop and start switches and allows them to serve the same function. I hope someone finds them useful.


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## lazzer408 (May 18, 2008)

I've gutted the harness of ignition system wiring and beef'd up the grounds. I was getting a 1v drop thru Yamaha's wiring when the headlight was on. Since I'll be running an HID headlamp, it's important the ballest get full voltage or it will compensate by drawing more current to maintain 55w output. I also started the replacement engine cradle which is now the lower battery tray. I'm pretty sure I'll be able to pull off 10 batteries. 55ah @ 120v  booyah!
The battery layout is:
-5 in the lower tray
-3 under the tank (yup they fit)
-2 above the rear shock and under the seat if I modify the shock mount.
The shock mount would have to be moved down about 1/2" but it's a multi-link suspension so I just have to adjust the lenght of the links to compensate. I might do this later.


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## lazzer408 (May 18, 2008)

Update:
I've been playing with this little SMPS powersupply I have. It's designed to fit in a PC's CDrom bay and provide dedicated 21amps at 12v for 2 graphics cards. It's made by Thermaltake and is called the power-express 250w. About $50 online. I stripped it of the rectifier and misc. filter caps on the primary side. They were not needed. It will power up as low as 48vdc. At 120vdc it draws 0.37 amps to power both filiments of an 1157 bulb. About 6a. So 44w input to 72 w output. I'm about to throw the HID kit on it and see how well it works. 
Pardon my messy workbench. It was the only area free right now.


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## lazzer408 (May 18, 2008)

Here's another cheap little switching supply. It's a Vector Travel-Mate 12v adaptor. It has a 12v lighter socket for automotive plugs. Check ebay. $10. 120vac/dc in 12v 6 amps out. Here's a pic of the internals and the unit running off of 120vdc and powering an H4 HID headlamp. It has to put out all 6 amps to run the HID and it does this with only 0.56a off the 120v battery pack.


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## lazzer408 (May 18, 2008)

Pics and video.

My motor had a vibration for some reason so I changed over from hard mounts to rubber ones (see first two pics). The batteries are just laying in there about where they need to go. There are 8. One more will go above the rear shock and another in front where the speed control is currently mounted.
















































3 second drive by at 48v 40mph.


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## lazzer408 (May 18, 2008)

I did some more cutting grinding. I had to cut the rear seat-frame in half longways to make a D shape out of the tubes. This gave me the 3/8" width I needed for the rear most battery. I also moved the shock mount I mentioned but after making the battery frame, it looks like I didn't have to move it. -doh!- I might cut it off again and move it back where it was. That saves me having to make longer links in the suspension. The two battery frames are designed to interconnect to each other for strength and to be removable so I can copy it later out of aluminum.  Two pics are the frame rail that had to be modified. The other are the upper battery tray that holds the top 5 batteries. I still need to make a modification to it for a bracket at the back and I'll probably send it out for powercoating. Krylon sucks. Last is the aluminum sprocket cover with a quick buff. oooo shiny. =)


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## lazzer408 (May 18, 2008)

I've been fooling around with the lighting latey. Here's what I measured.

Headlight 6a (H4 halogen/low) (55w HID replacement is the same)
Taillight 2a (2x 1157/low)
Frontmarkers 2a (2x 1157/low)
Brakelight 4a (2x 1157/high)
Turnsignal 2a (1 1157/high + 1 1156)
Cluster ~1a

With just the headlight and running lights I get 11a (6+2+2+1). With the headlight/tail/running/brake I get 15a (6+2+2+4+1). With the healight/tail/running/brake/turn I get 15/17a (6+2+2+4+1+2).
I replaced ALL the lights with LEDs except the headlight. Now with everything I can light at once I only get 7a draw. I've eliminated 10amps off the 12v system. 120w worth!  If I go with 35w HIDs (~4a) I'll only need 5a to light up the whole bike. That's only 60 watts!  I can get away with a much smaller dc-dc converter now. It looks like the little $10 Vector converter will work out just fine. 
Just some rough math... Lets say the dc-dc was 100% efficient.  I'm running a 120v pack so say 10a on the 12v side is 1a on the 120v side. In that case I'll only be drawing 0.33a for the dc-dc vs. 1.7a. 5x less.


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## ngrimm (Oct 19, 2007)

You do very nice work and document everything very well! I like the way you mounted your motor using the field coil bolt holes. I thought about doing that but wound up welding a mounting tab on the the brush end of the motor instead. How many teeth are on your rear sprocket? I think I counted 16 on the front. Does your controller have the connections for fwd input, rev input and fwd/rev output? Anyway congrats on a great job and I'm glad to see you are able to enjoy already.


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## lazzer408 (May 18, 2008)

ngrimm said:


> You do very nice work and document everything very well! I like the way you mounted your motor using the field coil bolt holes. I thought about doing that but wound up welding a mounting tab on the the brush end of the motor instead. How many teeth are on your rear sprocket? I think I counted 16 on the front. Does your controller have the connections for fwd input, rev input and fwd/rev output? Anyway congrats on a great job and I'm glad to see you are able to enjoy already.


Thanks for the props. I figured most of the stress will be on the plate at the front of the motor. It worked out well using the field bolts. Carefull you don't bottom out the threads. I had thought about welding a tab to the housing but I'm try to make as few modifications as I can. The frame of the bike has remained unmodified except for the 2 rails under the seat but that's a seperate removable sub frame. My controller will not be able to do fwd/rev on it's own. That would require a more complicated and expencive h-bridge design. I will be able to do reverse using a contactor. I will limit the throttle to 5-10% when activated. The sprockets are 15/44 in the pictures. I've ordered a 60t for the rear. It's not here yet. At 48v it'll probably drop me around ~30mph but I'll have the torque I'm looking for. I don't need it to do 125mph. =) 60 gets me 4:1 with the 15 front. It winds up closer to what I need. Keeps the acceleration current lower as well. I posted a thread with the link to the calculator I used.


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## mattW (Sep 14, 2007)

Yeah nice work, seems like you really know what you are doing, I've just started my own motorcycle conversion and I am completely making it up as I go lol... Really nice documentation and it looks like the final product will do really well. Fitting 10 55Ah batteries is a nice achievement, I'm going to save up for lithiums, but you should get decent range with what you have. Where is the project up to now? Bring on more EV eye candy!!!


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## pheobo (Jun 11, 2008)

Nice Work! Thanks for sharing the details.


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## ngrimm (Oct 19, 2007)

That works out nicely running 120 volts and being able to find an inexpensive converter. I think you'll like the 4:1 gearing better. That's what I'm running and even though I haven't clocked it yet, I'm pretty sure 48 volts at 85 ah is pushing 50 mph. I wouldn't be surprised if your 120 volts at 55 ah gives you a really good top end as well as low end torque. I'm eagerly anticipating your progress reports.


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## lazzer408 (May 18, 2008)

ngrimm said:


> That works out nicely running 120 volts and being able to find an inexpensive converter. I think you'll like the 4:1 gearing better. That's what I'm running and even though I haven't clocked it yet, I'm pretty sure 48 volts at 85 ah is pushing 50 mph. I wouldn't be surprised if your 120 volts at 55 ah gives you a really good top end as well as low end torque. I'm eagerly anticipating your progress reports.


I'm building my own controller. 500amp/75amp (selectable) Oh yes...it'll go.


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## lazzer408 (May 18, 2008)

I got the 61t sprocket back from the shop today. 16/61 gets me 3.8125:1. Here's the rpm/mph breakdown.


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## frodus (Apr 12, 2008)

just from what I've seen on my bike, you might consider a smaller front sprocket. 4:1 in mine is acceptable, but you'rs will be heavier. Seems like it'd suck amps, and accelerate pretty slowly. At least its a 61 tooth. Makes it easy to change the front sprocket for a different ratio. 

I'm ordering my 60 tooth sometime next week.


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## lazzer408 (May 18, 2008)

Maybe, but I want to be able to do highway speeds without grenading my armature.


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## frodus (Apr 12, 2008)

then advance the brushes a little 

or make a variable timing ring for the brush holders.


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## lazzer408 (May 18, 2008)

That won't help from over reving it.

Here's the chart with a 14/61 (4.357:1). To do 75mph I'm over 4000rpm.


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## skullbearer (Jul 9, 2008)

Its seems to me like you could later swap out for a high rpm brushless motor. I've been poking around motor places a lot, and I've been seeing claims of 8-11k rpm for smaller motors (around 6"), but some pretty impressive power outputs for the motor sizes. Granted, most of these have been in the $2k + range as well... which is also impressive for a home ev build.

On second thought, I'd stick with your motor and spend the money on lithiums if I was going to spend it at all.


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## lazzer408 (May 18, 2008)

skullbearer said:


> Its seems to me like you could later swap out for a high rpm brushless motor. I've been poking around motor places a lot, and I've been seeing claims of 8-11k rpm for smaller motors (around 6"), but some pretty impressive power outputs for the motor sizes. Granted, most of these have been in the $2k + range as well... which is also impressive for a home ev build.
> 
> On second thought, I'd stick with your motor and spend the money on lithiums if I was going to spend it at all.


Your on the right track. As if a car wasn't dangerous enough using a DC motor...I'm doing it on a bike. AC would be much safer.


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## frodus (Apr 12, 2008)

lazzer408 said:


> That won't help from over reving it.
> 
> Here's the chart with a 14/61 (4.357:1). To do 75mph I'm over 4000rpm.


actually it helps only from over RPMing the motor, higher volts is higher max RPM's, the reason it'd FRY the motor, is more to do with arcing the brushes at that higher RPM, they aren't timed for that RPM.

Your motor should do 2-3 times its rated voltage, but you may need some advancement on the brushes.

Just ask John Wayland, Bill Dube, etc. Thats how they get from frying their motors at higher RPM.


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## lazzer408 (May 18, 2008)

frodus said:


> actually it helps only from over RPMing the motor, higher volts is higher max RPM's, the reason it'd FRY the motor, is more to do with arcing the brushes at that higher RPM, they aren't timed for that RPM.
> 
> Your motor should do 2-3 times its rated voltage, but you may need some advancement on the brushes.
> 
> Just ask John Wayland, Bill Dube, etc. Thats how they get from frying their motors at higher RPM.


afaik I have a ~72v motor.

To do 75mph with a 14t front I'd be over 4000rpm. I'm not sure what the mechanical RPM limits of this motor are. I'm not worried about overvoltage. I could actually undervolt it and still blow it up simply because it's series wound and will run away. The average speed of the bike will be between 40 and 50mph. I heard these ADCs like 2500rpm. Seems to be a sweet spot for them? Max efficiency maybe? With the 16/61 I'm damn close with just enough overhead to hit 75mph.


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## lazzer408 (May 18, 2008)

Lexus said:


> Looking good ... do you any more Videos of it ... like in DAY LIGHT ....


yeh I know I know.  I'll have it back together shortly and get some good videos with my new camera.


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## skullbearer (Jul 9, 2008)

The motor isn't of a particularly large diameter, if you think about that the magnetos are generally much better attached to the core than rods are connected to pistons in a engine with a similarly sized crank (remember your permanent magnets are thick enough your motor is rotating a smaller mass inside) yadda yadda...

Your centrifugal forces are going to be about the same as about a 2L motor, which should give you a mechanical (centrigual force limited) rpm max of 6-8k. If you aren't confident about the quality of the magneto mounting situation, maybe someone knows how to improve this? Has anyone experimented with centrifugally driven advancement, as in older distributors? Get the correst weight calculations and you can have it self-advance the brushes if you set it up proper. Don't know if you have the space or acces to do it with your motor though.


Other solution is to go brushless, like I suggested before. The controller advances the activation just like spark advance in good ones for max torque at higher rpm.

A way to test your efficiency band, and this is just a garage mechanic's stupid idea:

Cut out a rotor still on wheel bearing with all the mounts for calipers from a junk car. Clean the rotor and if needed for good application get it turned. Drum brakes would work great as well. Use the brake on a mount as a constant pressure mechanical resistance and use an amp test circuit and volt test circuit connected via a good digital meter to a laptop to map your power draw across low to high rpm under that brake resistance.


Recommend you use gear reduction so you don't brake the bearings and get killed by a flying rotor. Should be good up to 600-800 rpm on a small rotor/drum no prob. Do it fast though or you'll warp it.


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## lazzer408 (May 18, 2008)

skullbearer said:


> The motor isn't of a particularly large diameter, if you think about that the magnetos are generally much better attached to the core than rods are connected to pistons in a engine with a similarly sized crank (remember your permanent magnets are thick enough your motor is rotating a smaller mass inside) yadda yadda...
> 
> Your centrifugal forces are going to be about the same as about a 2L motor, which should give you a mechanical (centrigual force limited) rpm max of 6-8k. If you aren't confident about the quality of the magneto mounting situation, maybe someone knows how to improve this? Has anyone experimented with centrifugally driven advancement, as in older distributors? Get the correst weight calculations and you can have it self-advance the brushes if you set it up proper. Don't know if you have the space or acces to do it with your motor though.
> 
> ...


Um... WHUT?


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## lazzer408 (May 18, 2008)

Here's the sprocket. If you look closely, the top shock mount was lowered and the links (below the control arm) have been replaced with the longer ones. I still have to round them off and sand blast and paint them. I'll finish up these little things later. <---We all say that.


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## frodus (Apr 12, 2008)

hey not bad...

how's the balance?


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## lazzer408 (May 18, 2008)

frodus said:


> hey not bad...
> 
> how's the balance?


Straighter then yamaha cut the rim.


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## skullbearer (Jul 9, 2008)

Man, you are an industrious fellow. That is one awesome looking sprocket, I have to say... as someone who worked on pedal bikes for a while it really gives me a healthy respect for 4000 rpm.


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## lazzer408 (May 18, 2008)

I got a chance to go to the shop and clean up my motor plate. I used some scrap for the first mock up. Other then a slight alignment touch-up everything worked out ok so I decided to make the finished plate from a fresh piece. Here's pics.


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## lazzer408 (May 18, 2008)

Lexus said:


> Mate looking really Good ... You want to come to Japan and do my ZZ-R ... ??


I would love to. You buying?


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## lazzer408 (May 18, 2008)

Lexus said:


> What ya drinking ... NOT American Piss weak Beer I hope


Mountain dew at the moment. 

I don't really drink alcoholic beverages too often. I find I'm much less productive if I'm drunk.  Funny you mention, I planed on the brushed aluminum look for the plate but my drunk buddy took it upon himself to buff it.


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## Little Rhody (Jun 17, 2008)

Nice job. its nice to see another tig welding person her on the site. 

LR


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## skullbearer (Jul 9, 2008)

Its... so... beautiful...

Seriously awesome lines on that, do you use some really nice machinery or are you just that meticulous with your cuts? I can't wait to see the whole bike all finished and together and everything cleaned up. Its gonna be awesome.


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## lazzer408 (May 18, 2008)

Little Rhody said:


> Nice job. its nice to see another tig welding person her on the site.
> 
> LR


My friend "TIGgah" (Henry) does the tig welding. I personally own a mig welder that I used to make the battery frames. The only thing I had tig'd was the rear section of the motorcycle frame (painted black).



skullbearer said:


> Its... so... beautiful...
> 
> Seriously awesome lines on that, do you use some really nice machinery or are you just that meticulous with your cuts? I can't wait to see the whole bike all finished and together and everything cleaned up. Its gonna be awesome.


I'm that meticulous with my cuts. The only 'large expencive machine' I've used so far is a shear (like a big pair of scissors for metal). Other then that, a drill and a large pedestal grinder/buffer. Anything that has to be cut or machined to an exact specification I send to a local shop. Like the sprocket for example.


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## skullbearer (Jul 9, 2008)

lazzer408 said:


> My friend "TIGgah" (Henry) does the tig welding. I personally own a mig welder that I used to make the battery frames. The only thing I had tig'd was the rear section of the motorcycle frame (painted black).
> 
> 
> 
> I'm that meticulous with my cuts. The only 'large expencive machine' I've used so far is a shear (like a big pair of scissors for metal). Other then that, a drill and a large pedestal grinder/buffer. Anything that has to be cut or machined to an exact specification I send to a local shop. Like the sprocket for example.


I didn't even think about having a sprocket machined! I feel like consumer habits have rotted my brain.

That is perfect though, I am part of a custom solar/ev build that has just been half scaled to a go-kart sized vehicle for one for a proof of concept within our budget... we couldn't find any sprockets of the sizes we needed that were quickly available. Thank you sir, for healing a portion of my diseased brain.


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## Little Rhody (Jun 17, 2008)

skullbearer said:


> I didn't even think about having a sprocket machined! I feel like consumer habits have rotted my brain.


My last sprocket I made, I created a cad program, and had the part cut on a waterjet machine. Then I chucked the sprocket in the lathe and chamfered the edges. This worked out real well. See it here. 
http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showthread.php/my-first-ev-project-15884.html


LR


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## lazzer408 (May 18, 2008)

Little Rhody said:


> My last sprocket I made, I created a cad program, and had the part cut on a waterjet machine. Then I chucked the sprocket in the lathe and chamfered the edges. This worked out real well. See it here.
> http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showthread.php/my-first-ev-project-15884.html
> 
> 
> LR


I can't find a waterjet or laser shop willing to do a 1-off for less then $250.


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## Little Rhody (Jun 17, 2008)

lazzer408 said:


> I can't find a waterjet or laser shop willing to do a 1-off for less then $250.



Ouch..............
Were are you located???????? Do you have a DXF file created for the part yet?? If you email me the file I can have my guy cut it. He doesn't care if its a one off part. And he has very reasonable prices. 

LR


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## lazzer408 (May 18, 2008)

Little Rhody said:


> Ouch..............
> Were are you located???????? Do you have a DXF file created for the part yet?? If you email me the file I can have my guy cut it. He doesn't care if its a one off part. And he has very reasonable prices.
> 
> LR


What did the sprocket run you?


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## Little Rhody (Jun 17, 2008)

lazzer408 said:


> What did the sprocket run you?



I don't remember the price. I can whip one up in cad and get a quote for you. 
It would just be basic, if you want any designs in it, or a specific chain size, might change the actual price. This will just be a rough quote. But if you have a part designed to your specific needs and wants, send me the file. I can get an exact quote. 

LR


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## Little Rhody (Jun 17, 2008)

Lexus said:


> You could start a little side business designing the Rear Sprockets for guys on the forum
> 
> I will need at a later date a Rear Sprocket for the Cheetah, a ZZ-R Conversion that is now on the back burner and a Chopper EV which is a Big Bear Venom chopper which is now in storage and also on the back burner.


I do a lot of freelance cad and fab work now. I am always looking to help others out when I can. Give me some specs and I can create a cad file for you. 

LR


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## Little Rhody (Jun 17, 2008)

That sprocket is done on a CNC Milling machine. One side at a time. This is how you get the radiused edges in the design. The water jet or laser will only be straight cut edges. But very similar appearance. 

I will need to know what the Bolt hole pattern is. Figure it on a circle radius from the center of the axle. The hole diameter. etc. 

LR


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## skullbearer (Jul 9, 2008)

Lexus said:


> OK Well will have to look in to that when I get the Kawasaki and when I start the chopper .. as at the moment I have no idea ... but they will be about 1 year away now.
> 
> 
> But
> Will have information on the Cheetah if and when the book arrives from the US .. I plan to start that in September ...


If you have the vehicle already you should be able to measure from the center of the hub to the center of your bolts to get the proper radii, and measure the diameter of your bolts (including threads) then halve that to get your bolt radii, which should all be the same.

Don't forget your hub radii... unless this is going on a drive shaft or diff or something, anyways, you're a smart guy, you can probably figure out what holes you need.


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## lazzer408 (May 18, 2008)

Update:

Just a quick post of where I'm at. The controller parts will be here this week so watch for some 120v diy controller testing soon.  The wiring on the 12v side is complete. I also have my HID headlight wired up and damn is it bright. The other lighting is all LEDs now. I've decided to isolate the 12v ground from the chassis. Seems like it's a good idea. The ignition switch was also disconnected from the 12v side and will be used to switch 120v to the dc-dc instead. It only has to carry an amp or so. Once the dc-dc is on the kill switch and start button will provide the signals to activate the propulsion system aka main contactor controller, ect. If anyone noticed, the bottom of my motor plate wasn't attached to the frame. I picked up an old snowmobile and one of it's motor mounts will make that attachment.

One thing I forgot about is the LCD clock in the dash. I have no 12v aux. battery so it won't work.  I might add a small battery just to keep the clock. I hate wasted features.


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## skullbearer (Jul 9, 2008)

It continues to sound wicked. So, when you are finished, I just need to figure out where you live so I can 'liberate' the bike. 

Do you still have the original 12v motorcycle batt? If you can jam that somewhere it could run your clock and heated gear and one of those obnoxious radios, and you just have to plug the battery tender in every week.


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## lazzer408 (May 18, 2008)

skullbearer said:


> It continues to sound wicked. So, when you are finished, I just need to figure out where you live so I can 'liberate' the bike.
> 
> Do you still have the original 12v motorcycle batt? If you can jam that somewhere it could run your clock and heated gear and one of those obnoxious radios, and you just have to plug the battery tender in every week.


The bike will have a 13.8-14.2v dc-dc convertor onboard so I wouldn't need to charge the aux battery manually. If I do use one it would be very small. A 2ah would be plenty. I could zip-tie it anywhere. I'm located in Illinois but I might have to ride out to Portland someday to race Travis! 

edit - If all I need that battery to do is run the little lcd clock, I might be able to get away with a 3 5v 1f eprom backup capacitors. I'll throw a diode on the feed so they can't discharge into the 12v systems. All this for a clock. haha


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## frodus (Apr 12, 2008)

lazzer408 said:


> The bike will have a 13.8-14.2v dc-dc convertor onboard so I wouldn't need to charge the aux battery manually. If I do use one it would be very small. A 2ah would be plenty. I could zip-tie it anywhere. I'm located in Illinois but I might have to ride out to Portland someday to race Travis!


2A should handle the inrush... but it'd be tiny! Just get a 7ah UPS battery, then you can at least run lights if the main pack fails.... like hazard lights at night so you don't get hit. More of a safety thing. I'm just throwing a motorcycle bat in the original spot for it just over the rear tire well.

We totally gotta race  it'l be a while for me though, working on so many projects, including a potential Isle of Man racebike.... need sponsors  Wanna be part of our team?


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## lazzer408 (May 18, 2008)

frodus said:


> 2A should handle the inrush... but it'd be tiny! Just get a 7ah UPS battery, then you can at least run lights if the main pack fails.... like hazard lights at night so you don't get hit. More of a safety thing. I'm just throwing a motorcycle bat in the original spot for it just over the rear tire well.
> 
> We totally gotta race  it'l be a while for me though, working on so many projects, including a potential Isle of Man racebike.... need sponsors  Wanna be part of our team?


Trav the battery is only for the clock. A dc-dc provides ALL the 12v system power and in the event of a dc-dc failure I'll have a dpdt switch to tap a traction battery to get me home. The 12v system ground has been isolated from the chassis so I'm not worried about the presence of any pack terminal being connected to the 12v system.

What is it you need a sponsor to do? Funding or other?


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## frodus (Apr 12, 2008)

oh, gotcha, good to have a safety... how many watts is your DC-DC? 

I'm just gonna see if anyone is interested in helping fund/provide services/product for a race bike... as well as travel to IOM.... The founder Azhar Hussain, called me Monday and talked about the race... he's only called 2 Electric motorcycle guys, so it was pretty cool. Called from London, talked for 30 min or so. Real nice guy, wants to see some sportbikes on the track.

www.ttxgp.com


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## skullbearer (Jul 9, 2008)

Can't you take or make a shrinkwrapped rechargeable pack like they use in RC vehicles? What are Lithium AA batts... 1.5 V? 8 of these shrinkwrapped together with insulated wiring and flat-ends (I don't know what those flat metal-on-plastic ends are called, but sometimes radioshack has them) and then trail the + and - leads out a whole at one part, you have a rechargeable pack that will be close to 2A, and on the cheap.


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## lazzer408 (May 18, 2008)

frodus said:


> oh, gotcha, good to have a safety... how many watts is your DC-DC?
> 
> I'm just gonna see if anyone is interested in helping fund/provide services/product for a race bike... as well as travel to IOM.... The founder Azhar Hussain, called me Monday and talked about the race... he's only called 2 Electric motorcycle guys, so it was pretty cool. Called from London, talked for 30 min or so. Real nice guy, wants to see some sportbikes on the track.
> 
> www.ttxgp.com


Is he going to sponsor you or something?


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## frodus (Apr 12, 2008)

he's organizing the race, not sponsoring, thats up to the teams entering.

its the first ever zero carbon GP race.


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## lazzer408 (May 18, 2008)

skullbearer said:


> Can't you take or make a shrinkwrapped rechargeable pack like they use in RC vehicles? What are Lithium AA batts... 1.5 V? 8 of these shrinkwrapped together with insulated wiring and flat-ends (I don't know what those flat metal-on-plastic ends are called, but sometimes radioshack has them) and then trail the + and - leads out a whole at one part, you have a rechargeable pack that will be close to 2A, and on the cheap.


A cheap 2-3ah sla is easier. There about $10

Trav, I'm using a 250w dc-dc btw.


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## frodus (Apr 12, 2008)

lazzer408 said:


> A cheap 2-3ah sla is easier. There about $10
> 
> Trav, I'm using a 250w dc-dc btw.


Thats plenty 

Whats the inrush when you turn ALL of your lights on at the same time? Aren't you using HID's? 

Haven't had mine on yet to measure.


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## lazzer408 (May 18, 2008)

frodus said:


> Thats plenty
> 
> Whats the inrush when you turn ALL of your lights on at the same time? Aren't you using HID's?
> 
> Haven't had mine on yet to measure.


Without the scope I can't measure it. The LEDs don't have an inrush current and the HID shouldn't either. There could be a filter cap on the 12v side of the HID but it can't be very large to fit in the ballast. It powers up at ~7a and runs at ~6a. I've just been going off the amp meter off my psu. The LEDs hardly show up on the meter. If I swap out a 35w HID I could get away with using that little 75w Travelmate adaptor. The HID gives a dark road alot of contrast which makes it pretty easy to see. I have no doubt a 35w would be enough light. I just had a 55w kit laying around. Did you get an HID yet? I'll sell you the other half of mine cheap. =) The HID ballast is rated at 9-36v. At 36v it'll only pull 2a. This kit has a 2 position lamp for high/low not the cheap halogen high beam ebay kits. You'll need to wire in a dpdt relay so the low beam doesn't activate the high beam solenoid. I used one those bosch cube relays.


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## frodus (Apr 12, 2008)

lazzer408 said:


> Without the scope I can't measure it. The LEDs don't have an inrush current and the HID shouldn't either. There could be a filter cap on the 12v side of the HID but it can't be very large to fit in the ballast. It powers up at ~7a and runs at ~6a. I've just been going off the amp meter off my psu. The LEDs hardly show up on the meter. If I swap out a 35w HID I could get away with using that little 75w Travelmate adaptor. The HID gives a dark road alot of contrast which makes it pretty easy to see. I have no doubt a 35w would be enough light. I just had a 55w kit laying around. Did you get an HID yet? I'll sell you the other half of mine cheap. =) The HID ballast is rated at 9-36v. At 36v it'll only pull 2a. This kit has a 2 position lamp for high/low not the cheap halogen high beam ebay kits. You'll need to wire in a dpdt relay so the low beam doesn't activate the high beam solenoid. I used one those bosch cube relays.


dude, PM me  let me know what you want for it. I happen to have a bike without HID....


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## lazzer408 (May 18, 2008)

oooooooooooooo purdy.


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## lazzer408 (May 18, 2008)

ahhhhhh purdier.  I found my 3/4" hole saw so why not a few more holes.


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## frodus (Apr 12, 2008)

lazzer408 said:


> ahhhhhh purdier.  I found my 3/4" hole saw so why not a few more holes.


thats a nice sprocket... I think I'll get a 72 tooth just for fun and get it to someone when the time comes...

is it stainless?


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## lazzer408 (May 18, 2008)

frodus said:


> thats a nice sprocket... I think I'll get a 72 tooth just for fun and get it to someone when the time comes...
> 
> is it stainless?


I'm not sure. It cuts like stainless. I didn't try sticking a magnet to it but the chips don't stick and it's not rusting. Considering the humidity lately it could be. It's a hell of alot lighter I'll tell you that much.

72t huh? You plan on running 6000rpm on the freeways?


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## frodus (Apr 12, 2008)

lazzer408 said:


> I'm not sure. It cuts like stainless. I didn't try sticking a magnet to it but the chips don't stick and it's not rusting. Considering the humidity lately it could be. It's a hell of alot lighter I'll tell you that much.
> 
> 72t huh? You plan on running 6000rpm on the freeways?


no, just for the pits 

I've got a 44 tooth, and it gets me 4:1 down to 3:1 easily, my 60 tooth gets me 4.5-5.45 easily. 72 would give me the other ratios to play with 

It'd just be for fun.


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## lazzer408 (May 18, 2008)

frodus said:


> no, just for the pits
> 
> I've got a 44 tooth, and it gets me 4:1 down to 3:1 easily, my 60 tooth gets me 4.5-5.45 easily. 72 would give me the other ratios to play with
> 
> It'd just be for fun.


I can tell you this. The 16t front I have is alot quieter then the 13t I bought to try that's as noisy as yours.  If you can, go with the 72t rear and a 16t-18t front.


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## frodus (Apr 12, 2008)

I want to try some o-ring first, this chain has tons of slop in the bushings around the pin on each link, thats where most of the noise is.


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## skullbearer (Jul 9, 2008)

Someone I yack with at school that has some sort of electronicwhateverthehellitis degree keeps pushing two things with me on EV's...

DC trumps AC every time (his claim not mine)

Heavy duty bicycle chains and bicycle shifters are a lighter replacement for motorcycle chains in a chain driven EV. He swears if I test the breaking torque of the bc chain vs the mc chain and take weight into account, you get more chain per mass with the bc chains, and he suggestions having just 2 or three sprocket options shifted by multiple bc tensioner/shifters.


I worked on bicycles for about a year, and I can say... I don't freaking believe that under a constant load bc chains, even multiple of them, would shift without breaking, jumping, or shearing the thin sprockets.


Hell, even heavy duty ones are breakable by healthy adults, particularly during a shift. Any opinions on this? I'm just wondering if there wouldn't be some way to lighten or simplify the process of setting up a chain drive with transmission features. I only need two speeds (low and high) for my plans. Was planning on using a two motors driving individual wheels with fixed gearing and swapping between parallel and series wiring with a controller or relays for the two speeds, to eliminate the intermediate drive stuff altogether.



EDIT: Could still use a two motor in-line setup with a two speed mechanical setup to give me 4 speeds, 2 electric x 2 mechanical. So the longer gearing would be significantly larger than the shorter.


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## lazzer408 (May 18, 2008)

Bicycle chains don't have to push 700lbs either. Maybe ~200lbs unless the rider is overweight and I doubt he'll be doing any bicycle racing. I've broke mountain bike chains before cranking down hard in a low gear.

I could show you how to use 2 centrifugal clutches and a jackshaft and a one-way roller clutch to make a 2-speed chain drive transmission.

Like this...

http://scooter.wikia.com/wiki/Evo_two_speed_transmission

EDIT - AH! Here it is. I didn't think anyone was making it anymore.










$99 found here.

http://www.bmikarts.com/shop/index.php?keywords=sprockets

The engine clutch has one sprocket on the clutch driving a sprocket on the jackshaft that is on a one way clutch. The engine also has a solid sprocket driving a second clutch on the jackshaft. When the jackshaft reaches the engaugement point of the jackshaft clutch, It drive power backwards, if you will, through the clutch. The shaft will now spin faster, because of the second ratio, and the one-way bearing will allow the jackshaft to spin faster then the first ratio was turning.


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## frodus (Apr 12, 2008)

lazzer408 said:


> I could show you how to use 2 centrifugal clutches and a jackshaft and a one-way roller clutch to make a 2-speed chain drive transmission.
> 
> Like this...
> 
> http://scooter.wikia.com/wiki/Evo_two_speed_transmission


not a bad idea....

had one on my old HPI RS4-2 RC Car.... two clutches (one on engine, other is on the small gear). once you get to speed, the small engages the large and then freewheels. Pretty slick, I think we could fab one


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## lazzer408 (May 18, 2008)

frodus said:


> not a bad idea....
> 
> had one on my old HPI RS4-2 RC Car.... two clutches (one on engine, other is on the small gear). once you get to speed, the small engages the large and then freewheels. Pretty slick, I think we could fab one


Yup exactly like that. Cheap, easy, and reliable. Except for the fact that checp clutches use cheap bushings.


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## skullbearer (Jul 9, 2008)

Well if you can replace those with good bushings, or fab up a good setup or reasonable alternative, then you're in business! I didn't even think about using double clutches... If the motor had two electronically or mechanically controlled clutches (I'm thinking something heavier duty maybe than the scooter clutch) then you could have one engage one sprocket, and the second engage a longer sprocket. Two speeds.


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## frodus (Apr 12, 2008)

skullbearer said:


> Well if you can replace those with good bushings, or fab up a good setup or reasonable alternative, then you're in business! I didn't even think about using double clutches... If the motor had two electronically or mechanically controlled clutches (I'm thinking something heavier duty maybe than the scooter clutch) then you could have one engage one sprocket, and the second engage a longer sprocket. Two speeds.



you only need one clutch (ICE's have two, one from the engine to the transmission, the other in the transmission).

Gear1 has a one way bearing and the inner clutch on it, the second gear has the clutch bell on it. Once the clutch from gear 1 spins fast enough, it engages the clutch bell, and spins faster than gear 1, so gear 1 freewheels. Same thing in my RC-Car, except you don't need the first clutch on an EV.


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## lazzer408 (May 18, 2008)

frodus said:


> you only need one clutch (ICE's have two, one from the engine to the transmission, the other in the transmission).
> 
> Gear1 has a one way bearing and the inner clutch on it, the second gear has the clutch bell on it. Once the clutch from gear 1 spins fast enough, it engages the clutch bell, and spins faster than gear 1, so gear 1 freewheels. Same thing in my RC-Car, except you don't need the first clutch on an EV.


I hear ya. It doesn't need to idle so the first clutch isnt needed. Buy the $39 set then.


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## frodus (Apr 12, 2008)

lazzer408 said:


> I hear ya. It doesn't need to idle so the first clutch isnt needed. Buy the $39 set then.


pretty much... I might actually consider it, the only loss is chain/sprocket loss and a TINY bit when the clutch engages and a TINY bit from bearings.


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## lazzer408 (May 18, 2008)

frodus said:


> pretty much... I might actually consider it, the only loss is chain/sprocket loss and a TINY bit when the clutch engages and a TINY bit from bearings.


yup yup. And a slight drag of the one way clutch bearings. Compared to what a belt driven CVT draws? This might not even show on the amp meter. I haven't used a setup like that in 20 years. It used to be common.


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## frodus (Apr 12, 2008)

it was the first thing I thought of when I was looking, but couldn't find anything. I'd love to fabricate something... just think, if you have an electric clutch, you could engage to whatever you want.


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## lazzer408 (May 18, 2008)

frodus said:


> it was the first thing I thought of when I was looking, but couldn't find anything. I'd love to fabricate something... just think, if you have an electric clutch, you could engage to whatever you want.


You can probably use a small engine pto clutch? Replace the pully with a sprocket? I'm sure they make sprocket ones but you know how I think...cheap!

http://www.clutches-brakes.com/ SC425 has a pic. Something like that could work well.

EDIT - Trav. I was thinking about it and you really only need one electric clutch and one one-way bearing right? The low ratio is solid to the motor shaft driving the one way roller clutch on the jackshaft. The second ratio is the electric clutch on the motor shaft driving a sprocket solid to the jackshaft. It is simple isn't it. =)
Plus if your programing all of this you can incorporate the controller to drop the pwm just before the shift and ramp back up to save clutch wear. This could be done quickly.


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## skullbearer (Jul 9, 2008)

Why don't you do it on your bike as a test run lazzer? Not many of us have a vehicle sitting around to try it out on.


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## lazzer408 (May 18, 2008)

skullbearer said:


> Why don't you do it on your bike as a test run lazzer? Not many of us have a vehicle sitting around to try it out on.


I've ran those setups on minibikes before. To test it on the Yamaha would involve moving the motor forward, to make room for a jackshaft, and relocating all the batteries. Not to mention the cost. To prove what? That it works? I already know they do. 

I have snowmobile clutches and secondaries laying all over the place. If I thought there was any benifit to using a trans, that justified the complexity, I would be.


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