# [EVDL] EV's vs Power Generation



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

The utilities will figure it out just like they figured out how to integrate Air Conditioning.

To some extent it is their job to 'worry about' these things. But just like they are good at worrying, they are good at solving the 'problems' that change always brings.





> "John G. Lussmyer" <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> > There has been a discussion about EV's on one of my other lists, one guy
> > who has worked for Power Co's, brought up this possible problem:
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Bill Dube <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> > An EV used for commuting, has the same annual energy use as a
> > refrigerator. Would your pal be concerned if everyone, slowly over
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Do the research before you say that a fact is "propaganda."
10 mile commute = 0.250 * 10 = 2.5 kWhr
52 weeks * 5 days commute = 650 kWhrs per year = about the same as a 
typical refrigerator.

Exactly like I said, a commuter EV uses about the same amount of 
electricity annually as a typical refrigerator. It is a fact. You 
would know that if you simply took 5 minutes to look it up yourself.
http://michaelbluejay.com/electricity/refrigerators.html

You need to do some study on the peak demand curve on the grid and 
smart grid. After you study a bit, you will be less misinformed. 
_Then_ come back and comment about charging EVs off-peak using smart charging.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smart_grid
http://www.nrc-cnrc.gc.ca/eng/dimensions/issue6/smart_technology.html

Nothing goes "ding" on the smart grid. It is all under the control of 
the utility, not some arbitrary timer. At night, there is _huge_ 
extra grid capacity. Again, EVs will come into popularity slowly, and 
the utilities will have plenty of time to implement an efficient 
method to schedule the charging demand to their advantage which will 
use the existing grid with little or no modification.

Saying there will be major problems with grid capacity because of EV 
charging is actually the propaganda. Looks like you swallowed that 
whopper hook, line, and sinker. ;-) You should have checked the facts 
for yourself before you posted your opinion. It is not at all hard to 
check the facts using Google, a few key words, and perhaps a calculator.

Bill D.

At 01:18 PM 7/1/2011, you wrote:
>


> Bill Dube <[email protected]> wrote:
> >
> > > An EV used for commuting, has the same annual energy use as a
> > > refrigerator. Would your pal be concerned if everyone, slowly over
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

No offense, but since when was the Impala a "small car"? It's the largest
sedan Chevy makes.



> Bill Dube <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> > Do the research before you say that a fact is "propaganda."
> > 10 mile commute = 0.250 * 10 = 2.5 kWhr
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Agree whole heartedly but a few people I know would say the Denali and
Escalade are the biggest "cars" GM makes. Pathetic, isn't it.

Sincerely,
Mark Grasser


-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf
Of Jeff Haskell
Sent: Friday, July 01, 2011 8:29 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] EV's vs Power Generation

No offense, but since when was the Impala a "small car"? It's the largest
sedan Chevy makes.



> Bill Dube <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> > Do the research before you say that a fact is "propaganda."
> > 10 mile commute = 0.250 * 10 = 2.5 kWhr
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

OH DARN IT. I made a typo which Google took to mean "SEND MAIL". When as
you can see that was not my intent. Sorry. Here is the upshot.

The "factoid" presented above only accounts for the end-of-month price on
the utility bill. It has oversimplified to the point of error the actual
effect on the grid, particularly the neighorhood grid of which the OP was so
concerned.

A refrigerator draws 1000 watts for a second, then drops to 250 watts for 3
minutes, then goes to sleep for 10-15 minutes. All day all night. WIth all
those refrigerators off on their own cycle, the effect is a fairly even,
continuous and small load at the neighborhood transfomer.

An electric vehicle is asleep until an anointed hour, then it presents a
very significant load. The small Chevy Volt charger wants 1KW; the large
one wants 40A @ 240V service, so clearly they are intending to pull 6-9KW.
Now if you get a whole neighborhood full of those -- that's actually going
to require some real thinking about. I agree the market will have awhile to
adapt, and it has done this before - with the growth of A/C for instance.
But does it bear thinking about? YES. Not least so we can INTELLIGENTLY
argue the point.

It's a real disappointment to see that dismissed with a soundbite of
propaganda. The soundbite is only valid within a narrow use case, and this
isn't it. That suggests the speaker does not understand the underlying
science: it is "cargo cult argument". Merely being wrong doesn't annoy me;
but puffing themselves up and declaring *me* ignorant, claiming *I* failed
to do the resarch... well... that's just sad. If this is some sort of
private club where that kind of ad-hominem attack is allowed from the
regulars, well, you really ought to look to that... I have no plans to test
whether it's allowed from less active posters.

Robert
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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

I agree. It's a concern but not 'our' concern. The utilities will deal with it. The statement on the surface is also a bit flawed. If the power capacity was installed based on historical loads then we are indeed in big trouble and we should look at indicting the CEO's for scamming the consumer in favour of profits by cutting corners on future power usage projections.

Lawrence



> John wrote:
> 
> > The utilities will figure it out just like they figured out how to integrate Air Conditioning.
> >
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

The manufactured ev's will likely have AC motors and inverters that run on
around 300V rather than the 144V or so the typical diy ev uses, so if they
charge at 8 or 10A at night that's around 2.4kW to 3kW. I also agree that a
10 mile commute is hardly typical. A working parent with kids playing
sports, taking dance and music lessons...will put a lot more miles on in a
day than that. Like the other posters I am not an expert on this at all,
but I have talked to the guy who is the manager of substation maintenance
for the northern part of the state (NV just has one electric company which
enjoys a statewide monopoly), and he claims they could handle about 1
million cars charging at night with no infrastructure changes. 

I think the transformers might be an issue in older neighborhoods where
residential service is usually lower amperage, like 100A service and
transformers may be max'ed out on the number of houses they can supply with
this service, but not in the newer ones which all have 200A service or more
for large homes with AC, and lots of appliances. I would guess that there
will be more purchases of ev's in the latter where there is more disposable
income. I don't think an electrician would install a charger in a residence
with max'ed out service panel, the service would need to be upgraded. That
requires inspection by the county and the utility company here and they will
not permit it if the transformer is close to max'ed out. When I installed
solar PV I upgraded my 100A service to 200A. I had to get a county
permit/inspection and utility inspection. The utility ran new wires to the
house from the transformer, and said it was no problem since I was the only
house on the transformer. 

Here in NV the nights are cool so air conditioners don't run much if at all,
so that capacity is available for charging. It will be more of an issue in
humid mid-western states like OH, as well as southern states where the
nights are much warmer. I think the ramp up of ev's will be slow enough
that the utilities will have time to adapt, and work out methods to handle
the additional costs. 



--
View this message in context: http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/EV-s-vs-Power-Generation-tp3638543p3639943.html
Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Dan Bentler <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> > I think the big thing everyone is overlooking is where is the energy (coal
> > gas nuke hydro wind - let solar out assuming it is dark) going to come from
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

>
> The utilities can pick up added EV consumption just like they do the pot growers by merely reading the > meter in many cases.

There are a number of cases here in Colorado where said pot growers
have blown up transformers.... because in the older neighborhoods a
single 5kW transformer feeds three or four houses -- then a few of
those houses put in 10 or 15kW continuous load.... eventually the
transformer explodes. But, if all of those houses turned on electric
heat at the same time on a cold winter night, the transformers can
overload too...... EV's won't be as bad as either of those loads 

Z

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

For what it is worth, on NPR a Power company person said it was no
problem. The worst that would happen as people got ev's was old
transformers would blown and newer type would be put in. Happens all
the time and is standard maintenance and upgrade.


Bob Salem




> Zeke Yewdall <[email protected]> wrote:
> >>
> >> The utilities can pick up added EV consumption just like they do the pot=
> growers by merely reading the > meter in many cases.
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

That was also the message from the Californian PG&E
when presenting for one of the local EAA chapters,
they were confident that millions of EVs could be
added and possibly result in overall lower rates
due to the spread-out cost for infrastructure divided
by a larger amount of electricity sold.

By the time half the houses have an EV charger, this
means that more than 100 million EVs were sold. With
most manufacturers addressing volumes as low as a
few or maybe several tens of thousands of units per
year, I do not see this as a problem, though at the
timescale of utilities this may be on their radar.

You think better CAFE standards are not the concern
of the public as well? How concerned are you about
fuel safety, subsidizing foreign govts and in
general, running an unsustainable business even if
the car companies would love to sell you an even
bigger boulevard tractor to show off for your neighbors?

Note that if all things were equal, then there would
be no need for advertisement, so just like the govt
setting targets for corporations in terms of CAFE, 
in the same vein it is true that advertisement for
bigger/more luxurious vehicles will lead the public.

Note also that very popular vehicles in the past
were not big at all, for example a Corvette or a
Thunderbird was in most model years a very moderate 
2-seater with a large engine,
so generalizations are dangerous as you only need
to find a single exception to invalidate them...


Cor van de Water
Chief Scientist
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
Email: [email protected] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water XoIP: +31877841130
Tel: +1 408 383 7626 Tel: +91 (040)23117400 x203 

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On
Behalf Of Robert MacDowell
Sent: Saturday, July 02, 2011 12:31 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] EV's vs Power Generation

On Fri, Jul 1, 2011 at 8:30 PM, Dan Bentler <[email protected]>


> wrote:
> 
> > I think the big thing everyone is overlooking is where is the energy
> > (coal gas nuke hydro wind - let solar out assuming it is dark) going
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Replacing oil as a transportation fuel is a monumental task, and the sooner
everyone realizes it we may see less scare mongering about an essential
transition.

If the alternative to electrifying transportation is some sort of
societal/economic collapse
it won't matter how expensive upgrading grid components will be; it'll get
done.
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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

While it is true that the overall generating capacity of the grid can handle
the load even if 75% of all cars were EVs, the same is NOT true of the LOCAL
distribution at the neighborhood level. Many older neighborhoods could not
take such a load.

This is not to say that the problem is unsolvable, but that the growth of
EVs must be matched with a growth of neighborhood upgrades, som,etyhing
that we shoiuld do in any case.

-- Larry



> Robert MacDowell <[email protected]>wrote:
> 
> > On Fri, Jul 1, 2011 at 8:30 PM, Dan Bentler <[email protected]>
> > wrote:
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

________________________________

From: Robert MacDowell <[email protected]>
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <[email protected]>
Sent: Fri, July 1, 2011 3:18:44 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] EV's vs Power Generation

my old one, by actual measurement, drew about 1350kwh/yr. So 3 extra fridges



> When EVs become popular, and the load becomes noticeable on the grid,
> then there will be incentives offered to charge at a lower rate
> overnight, rather than quickly during peak load periods.



>That's exactly the use-case which has this guy spooked. The power compa=
ny
is going to end up publishing a tariff that says "4 cents a KWH after
midnight." That means at 12:01am, every charger goes "ding" and throws
itself onto the grid at the same time. I'd be more concerned about the
>generating stations, but he's talking about your neighborhood transformer.

Actually you are probably wrong here. At 12:01 it will ping the network lik=
e =

ethernet CSMA/CD and ask
"Can i draw power or similar. If no one else drawing or below capacity than=
yes, =

otherwise back off, wait a random time and ask again. So no problem here wi=
th =

smart grid




> Bill Dube <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> > An EV used for commuting, has the same annual energy use as a
> > refrigerator. Would your pal be concerned if everyone, slowly over
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Bill Dube <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> 
> > >A 10 mile commute means 5 miles each way. How many people live only 5
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Robert,

You are over-reacting and plainly rather rude.

I get enough of your sort at work without having to put up with it 
when I get home as well. This list is also a family oriented one and 
therefor you language is inexcusable.

You are the first person on this list to feature in my "junk mail" 
filter, so *please* don't bother responding.

Regards, Martin Winlow
Herts, UK
http://www.evalbum.com/2092
www.winlow.co.uk




> Robert MacDowell wrote:
> 
> > On Sat, Jul 2, 2011 at 10:06 AM, Bill Dube <[email protected]>
> > wrote:
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Please look at the bar graph in the second reference:
http://www.hcd.ca.gov/hpd/hrc/rtr/ex48.pdf

The most popular one way commute distance is 1 to 5 miles. The next 
most popular distance is 5 to 10 miles. The median (most popular, 
typical) ) commute distance, one way, is about 5 miles. The typical 
(most popular, median) round trip is thus 10 miles. The average round 
trip is 20 miles.

Commuting 10 miles (round trip) uses the same amount of energy 
annually as adding one refrigerator to your household. Commuting 20 
miles (round trip) is like adding two refrigerators (or two freezers.)

Since it is not a huge difference in load, and the load will be added 
quite slowly over many years, there really is no problem for the 
electrical grid infrastructure. The change in the amount of 
electricity generated will be similar to the period when ice-boxes 
were replaced by electric refrigerators. However, there will be few 
or no changes needed to be made in the grid hardware (like 
transformers) since it is a certainty that EVs will be programmed to 
charge off-peak via smart grid type methods, once they become 
popular, many years from now.

Also, many folks may opt to charge at work as well as at home, 
especially if their commute is long. Again, the charging will 
certainly occur off-peak, once EVs become popular and their charging 
energy becomes noticeable to the utilities.

Bill Dube'

At 11:52 PM 7/5/2011, you wrote:
>


> Bill Dube <[email protected]> wrote:
> >
> >
> > > >A 10 mile commute means 5 miles each way. How many people live only 5
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

It's nice to see a good, spirited discussion here - lately we haven't had so 
much of the old-days endless debates over flooded vs AGM and AC vs DC - but 
let's keep it civil, please. Make your points, argue your case, but 
remember the Fidonet Principles:

1. Thou shalt not be too annoying.

2. Thou shalt not be too easily annoyed.

http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#conv

Thanks!

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = 
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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

My apologies. I am quite certain I hit private reply and not reply-all. I
happen to think private mail is great for de-escalation instead of
escalation. People have a right to post and be wrong... or be right and be
thought wrong... without other people kicking them in the privates for doing
so. THAT is what really got my dander up. Needless to say it was not my
intent to contribute more of the same  but funny about that...

Robert



> David Roden <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> > It's nice to see a good, spirited discussion here - lately we haven't had
> > so
> ...


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