# Motor burned up?



## PatricioIN (Jun 13, 2008)

So... ran a couple of miles to the grocery today and on the way back, my motor started making an odd noise. Within two blocks, it would no longer spin. Not pulling any amps, not spinning... and smoking. Not a good sign. I thought the last couple of times that I drove it that it seemed even less powerful than usual, but it's been cold here again, so figured it was just the weather. 

Any ideas how/why the motor would burn out? Didn't seem to ever be pulling any more amps than normal.. my ammeter (for the week I've had it up and running) never showed more than 300amps.. I have the Curtis 1221C.

I'm awaiting the towtruck now.


----------



## tj4fa (May 25, 2008)

PatricioIN said:


> So... ran a couple of miles to the grocery today and on the way back, my motor started making an odd noise. Within two blocks, it would no longer spin. Not pulling any amps, not spinning... and smoking. Not a good sign. I thought the last couple of times that I drove it that it seemed even less powerful than usual, but it's been cold here again, so figured it was just the weather.
> 
> Any ideas how/why the motor would burn out? Didn't seem to ever be pulling any more amps than normal.. my ammeter (for the week I've had it up and running) never showed more than 300amps.. I have the Curtis 1221C.
> 
> I'm awaiting the towtruck now.


Lower power last few times out? Was it pulling more amps than normal as in like maybe the brakes were dragging causing arcing through the motor brushes? 

Odd noises? Like loose parts in the motor as in maybe a brush failed and banged around inside the motor?

I'm just guessing here.


----------



## Guest (Mar 1, 2009)

PatricioIN said:


> So... ran a couple of miles to the grocery today and on the way back, my motor started making an odd noise. Within two blocks, it would no longer spin. Not pulling any amps, not spinning... and smoking. Not a good sign. I thought the last couple of times that I drove it that it seemed even less powerful than usual, but it's been cold here again, so figured it was just the weather.
> 
> Any ideas how/why the motor would burn out? Didn't seem to ever be pulling any more amps than normal.. my ammeter (for the week I've had it up and running) never showed more than 300amps.. I have the Curtis 1221C.
> 
> I'm awaiting the towtruck now.


Ouch! Sorry to hear that. Maybe you were just running too many amps for just a bit too long and a weak spot gave way in the motor. Maybe. It's just a quick thought. Did the amps jump through the roof when it gave up the ghost? What did your gauges tell you? That kind of information may help trouble shoot your issues and prevent that from happening in the future. What motor are you using? System voltage? How is it all wired up? 

Pete : )


----------



## Greenflight (Sep 13, 2007)

Sorry to hear that... this happened to me a while ago.

My diagnosis of what happened was that when I first started driving my truck, I was still getting used to the new torque curve and was shifting to early, causing the motor to run at a low speed and "lug." Even if you're not drawing tons of amps, running the motor at low rpms reduces cooling airflow and heat things up. This melted the insulation.

A few hundred miles later the motor finally vibrated just the right way to cause a short in one of the coils where the insulation was already gone.

Honestly to me I'm not sure your motor burned out. I've never seen a motor burn all the way through a coil to the point of not conducting any more. A much more common failure would be an internal short, which would still draw current when you step on the gas.

Hard to say though, any number of things could have happened. To me, it sounds like a connection problem, either internal or external, probably caused by vibration. If a connection broke, it would have arced, which explains the smoke. It would have also caused an open, not a short, which explains the zero amp draw and the not spinning. What kind of motor is it? A name-brand would probably be a lot less prone to this kind of failure, but it could happen.

I would disconnect the motor and check for continuity... Check your crimps, the field/armature jumper on the motor, etc. Who knows, might be an easy fix.


----------



## TheSGC (Nov 15, 2007)

Man, what a bummer...
Are you measuring motor amps or battery amps? 

The only things I can think of is that one or more of your brushes broke and got eaten into the motor, which is bad. Or you ran the motor at too high AMPs at too low of an RPM and it melted away the windings/insulation, which is also bad. I don't know the specs for the 8" ADC, so I'm going to look them up.

OR something like road debris got jammed into the motor and who knows what that looks like. 

Takes some pictures of the brush end of the motor with the cover off.


----------



## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

when ya get it home the very first thing I would do (if it is not totally obvious its the motor) is put the car in neutral and try to run the motor on a 12 volt battery to confirm 100% it is the motor. It may be the controller but try that but be carful as if it is the motor it may throw some pretty good sparks. Keep us poted on your findings,, thats a bummer dude!!!!

Brian


----------



## tj4fa (May 25, 2008)

Here's the motor he's using from his build thread:

http://www.cardomain.com/ride/3155482/5


----------



## PatricioIN (Jun 13, 2008)

it did not pull a bunch of amps just before failure. It still smells of "bad" electric. When I step on the accelerator cable, I get no change in amps from my meter which is on the battery side. Come to think of it, I get no curtis whine either... would I get that if the motor is pulling no amps? I don't know enough about that stuff clearly. 

I try to cruise between 3,000-4,000 rpms for the motor. I only went about four miles on level ground, no more than 40mph and 25 degrees outside. Cruising usually takes between 70-100 amps..


----------



## PatricioIN (Jun 13, 2008)

120v system with 15 8volt deep cycle US batts, Curtis 1221C 400amp controller with heat sink, 8" ADC motor


----------



## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

the controller will not make any noise if there is no load coming from the motor, Have ya tried the 12 volts directly to the motor yet? That will confirm if it is the motor for sure.

Brian


----------



## TheSGC (Nov 15, 2007)

The ADC 203-06-4001 has plenty of power so over heating and melting insulation shouldn't be much of a problem. I am still thinking there is something with the brushes. 

I know this is stupid, but did you check your fuse/breaker? Since you are getting no current, it sounds like the controller shut something down or a fuse blow, maybe due to a short in the motor.


----------



## PatricioIN (Jun 13, 2008)

the inline 400amp fuse and circuit breaker are fine.. Haven't had a chance to check anything else. Will need to remove the belly shield to get at motor connections. We'll see if I have time this week to check it out. Right now, I just need to "walk away" for a bit.. Hopefully, it'll be something relatively simple. Frankly, I'd rather find that a rock got in it and ruined the motor than just finding the motor fried without being able to determine why. But right now, anything is pure speculation.

I'll let you know what I find when I have time to get to it. Thanks.


----------



## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

PatricioIN said:


> the inline 400amp fuse and circuit breaker are fine.. Haven't had a chance to check anything else. Will need to remove the belly shield to get at motor connections. We'll see if I have time this week to check it out. Right now, I just need to "walk away" for a bit.. Hopefully, it'll be something relatively simple. Frankly, I'd rather find that a rock got in it and ruined the motor than just finding the motor fried without being able to determine why. But right now, anything is pure speculation.
> 
> I'll let you know what I find when I have time to get to it. Thanks.



you can access the motor terminals at the controller as well.. Just unhook them (at least one of them) from the controller. If you have easy access to the controller.

Brian


----------



## PatricioIN (Jun 13, 2008)

yeah, but I want to be able to see all four..


----------



## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

OK??????????????????????


----------



## dimitri (May 16, 2008)

From everything you posted so far, it may not even be the motor burning, could be controller just as well... need to find the source of burnt smell or burn marks...


----------



## Greenflight (Sep 13, 2007)

Based on the "odd sound" before failure I'm guessing it's a mechanical failure in the motor... If it's a brush problem it could be relatively easy to fix.


----------



## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

Welll I am putting my money on the controller,, I doubt its the motor,, If it is the motor the controller probably caused it and is also bad.

Brian


----------



## tj4fa (May 25, 2008)

PatricioIN said:


> We'll see if I have time this week to check it out. Right now, I just need to "walk away" for a bit.. Hopefully, it'll be something relatively simple.
> I'll let you know what I find when I have time to get to it. Thanks.


Patrick, who you trying to kid...

You won't be able to walk away from this. You'll be agonizing over it every waking (and likely non-waking) moment until you get in there and pull the headband off that motor and look inside.

You might as well suck it up and get out there and check it out  so we don't have to agonize over it with you until you get back with us.

I'm hoping it's something simple and not expensive like a bad pot box/ connection or something.


----------



## tj4fa (May 25, 2008)

Found this thread about someone else with a controller/motor problem where the motor quit on him.

http://www.convertthefuture.com/bbs...ghlight=&sid=e4ef485cfbec17a969b609c300769bc4


----------



## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

Patrick ya got to tell us whats up?? Do you know yet??

Brian


----------



## tj4fa (May 25, 2008)

rctous said:


> Patrick ya got to tell us whats up?? Do you know yet??
> 
> Brian


He's killing me...I think about it at work and wake up in the middle of the night wondering...


----------



## ElectriCar (Jun 15, 2008)

I've spent over 15 years in a plant troubleshooting DC motors. My money says it has to do with the brushes if it is the motor. Not very much experience with our type drives but industrial controllers are seldom problematic until they get some age on them. 

You may have gotten trash in a brush holder causing the brush to hang. It couldn't be worn out brushes unless you installed a used motor and didn't replace the brushes. If something is causing a brush not to float eventually it will wear off the contact surface and bad things start to happen!

One thing worn brushes do is cause arcing which turns the armature black and will cause pitting as it behaves just like an arc welder. You can hear it if the ambient noise isn't too loud. 

If it's a brush issue it should be a breeze to fix. If it has 4 holders 90 degrees apart it may read ok with a meter so you just need to check them. 









This is a typical brush. It will have a copper stranded wire coming from it or a fiberglass cloth around it like this one. You should have two or four brush holder locations with one or two brushes. 

Lift the spring mechanism holding the brush against the armature with your finger. Tug the wire coming from the brush a little and see if it moves. It shouldn't take much effort to move it at all. If it doesn't move you may have gotten lucky and found the right one. Try another one before you pull it too hard. However, I've never had the wire come out of a brush while pulling it out as long as the spring is held out of the way. 

If you found a sticking brush remove it completely and note how it was orientated as you may need to replace it the same way it came out. Look at the end of the brush that was facing the armature (the rotating part of the motor). It should be very shiny like it's polished probably with some slight ridges on it. If it's shiny it's ok. If it's dull like the rest of the brush it hasn't been making good contact and you need to "seat" it and clean the commutator. 

If you know a good DC motor man (or woman) have them help you. You will need to lift the drive wheels off the floor for safety as you're going to need to rev the motor to seat the brushes. Best advice is to find a motor shop that will do it for you and take it to them. Below is a photo of a dirty commutator. 









The copper part at the top is the commutator. You can see in this photo this one is very worn due to the groove worn in it. This motor has been in service a VERY LONG TIME to be this worn and needs to be turned down flat again on a lathe. I doubt an EV would get that bad in 5 years! Anyway, when they seat the brushes it will clean the black carbon from it and bring back the new copper color. 

Best of luck with it and do keep us posted.


----------



## ElectriCar (Jun 15, 2008)

Here's a photo of the brush assembly in I think an Advanced FB1-4001 like I have. It has side by side brushes and 4 holders. Note on the brushes, the wear area contacting the armature (removed) is only in the middle. For best performance it should be seated which will place the curvature of the commutator in the bottom of the brush for ideal contact.


----------



## PatricioIN (Jun 13, 2008)

Lots of very good info guys, thanks. I'm not sure I feel comfortable taking the motor apart, but then I wasn't really comfortable taking the driveshafts out and that turned out just fine. I have not looked at it all yet. It's been unusually cold here the last few days and is expected to warm up significantly by the end of the week. And to be honest, I just haven't wanted to deal with it. I will get to it soon, I promise!! And don't worry, I'm sure I'll be posting tons of pics and questions when I do (unless it does turn out to be something really simple like a bad connection!).


----------



## PatricioIN (Jun 13, 2008)

btw ElectriCar, it is a new ADC 8" with just over 1000 miles of use. I even have a belly shield on the motor compartment. I did hear an odd sound, which was probably arcing. It wasn't really like a grinding, more like a very fast paced crackling.. If it is the motor, my real concern is why would a new motor go bad so quickly? What could I have done wrong to make it happen?


----------



## ElectriCar (Jun 15, 2008)

PatricioIN said:


> btw ElectriCar, it is a new ADC 8" with just over 1000 miles of use. I even have a belly shield on the motor compartment. I did hear an odd sound, which was probably arcing. It wasn't really like a grinding, more like a very fast paced crackling.. If it is the motor, my real concern is why would a new motor go bad so quickly? What could I have done wrong to make it happen?


Your sound description sounds like brush issues. You didn't do anything to it. Somehow something probably got in the brush holder or such. And you don't have to take the motor apart. There should be removable covers on it for access to the brushes. The brushes are on the front end of the motor, opposite of the drive shaft. It's nothing hard really. Just pull off the covers and you'll see something similar to my last photo but you'll be looking down on the back of the brush where the wire comes out of it. 

Things happen to them but usually brushes in a new motor don't cause problems unless they weren't seated when installed and I bet they weren't based on that motor in my last photo. Those brushes in the photo aren't seated either.

Re the cold. Yea that dang global warming thing is kicking our butts all over the south now. It's been in the 20's (really cold for here in Carolina) but it's supposed to be 70 tomorrow!


----------



## tj4fa (May 25, 2008)

PatricioIN said:


> btw ElectriCar, it is a new ADC 8" with just over 1000 miles of use. I even have a belly shield on the motor compartment. I did hear an odd sound, which was probably arcing. It wasn't really like a grinding, more like a very fast paced crackling.. If it is the motor, my real concern is why would a new motor go bad so quickly? What could I have done wrong to make it happen?


Sounds like a nice cozy environment for squirrels. The fast-paced crackling sound was them eating acorns and your motor wiring. What you smelled was probably a little squirell fricassee.


----------



## PatricioIN (Jun 13, 2008)

ok... well definately the motor. Continuity and voltage tests of controller were fine. 12v test of motor gave me nothing.. no movement at all. No continuity across A1-S1.. There IS continuity from A2-S2 and S1-S2 - none from A1-A2. Plus, when I took the band off the tail end, things literally started falling out! I'll get some pics posted once I get the motor completely removed.. Talked to KTA and I don't think I should have any problems gettting it fixes, but it's really up to ADC.


Oh, motor spins freely by hand with no noises. So no alignment or connection problem thankfully! Must just be a bad motor or something came loose inside and caused _BAD_ things to happen!


----------



## ElectriCar (Jun 15, 2008)

PatricioIN said:


> ok...when I took the band off the tail end, things literally started falling out!


That's usually not a good sign. However, don't assume it's as bad as it seems. Do post the photos BEFORE you take the motor out just in case and again, if there's a local electric motor shop they will probably send someone out to look at it for you. It may be that it can be repaired *in the truck* by a local motor shop but you'll have to foot the bill and the tow bill. However ADC may reimburse you some, doubtful though but then again, they know about our little community of online DIYers and may do it for goodwill's sake. 

In any event, if you do it that way you can be driving it quickly instead of weeks later. Plus you'll save yourself from tearing it out and putting it back together should they be able to do it in car. Gee, I hope you don't have to remove it.


----------



## bblocher (Jul 30, 2008)

PatricioIN said:


> ok... well definately the motor. Continuity and voltage tests of controller were fine. 12v test of motor gave me nothing.. no movement at all. No continuity across A1-S1.. There IS continuity from A2-S2 and S1-S2 - none from A1-A2. Plus, when I took the band off the tail end, things literally started falling out! I'll get some pics posted once I get the motor completely removed.. Talked to KTA and I don't think I should have any problems gettting it fixes, but it's really up to ADC.
> 
> 
> Oh, motor spins freely by hand with no noises. So no alignment or connection problem thankfully! Must just be a bad motor or something came loose inside and caused _BAD_ things to happen!


Crazy! Keep us posted on how ADC customer service is then.


----------



## ElectriCar (Jun 15, 2008)

Oh yea, I forgot earlier but when A1-A2 reads open connection, it's *almost always *brush related, not the motor winding itself. Sounds like you may have had a brush or holder failure which again may be fixable in-car.


----------



## PatricioIN (Jun 13, 2008)

I'd say "catastrophic brush failure" would be a good description.. three of the eight were demolished, burned wiring, etc... probably need a whole new motor. Taking it out wasn't that difficult actually. Much easier and quicker than the ICE was!


----------



## major (Apr 4, 2008)

PatricioIN said:


> I'd say "catastrophic brush failure" would be a good description.. three of the eight were demolished, burned wiring, etc... probably need a whole new motor.


Hi Patricio,

I'd venture to say the brush damage was a result of that armature conductor (coil end) separating from the commutator riser. Once that happened, you had an open circuit armature which would have caused tremendous arcing on the comm. This then destroyed the brushes. Likely cause for the comm riser failure: Overspeed or manufacturing defect. My guess is overspeed. Comm brazing is likely done on an automated machine and rarely misses a braze. Although possible. Seeing the glass banding partially missing also adds to the overspeed theory. And a defective braze on the riser connection would have probably burned off and I don't see evidence of that in the picture, although it is a little fuzzy.

It may in fact be repairable. The comm riser and coil end could be brazed back together. Armature rebanded, retreated, comm turned and undercut and the armature balanced. Of course, a new brush holder assembly and brushes. Depends on the condition of the rest of the motor. I'd get an EASA shop opinion before throwing it away.

Unusual to see just one coil go like that. Usually they all mushroom out and the comm comes apart. But perhaps you were like just 3 RPM over the limit and most exploded motors go several thousand RPM over the limit.

Too bad.

major


----------



## PatricioIN (Jun 13, 2008)

I know the motor was never run overspeed. I never let it go over 5k rpm and even then, only for a moment or so. That is well withing the limits of an 8" ADC. I have a chart of what speeds I can go in which gear for X rpm's. I am the only person who drives this vehicle. My "hunch" is the brushes were never put in quite right (or maybe messed up in shipping?) because the car has never felt like it's had the power it should for the components it has.


----------



## bblocher (Jul 30, 2008)

PatricioIN said:


> I know the motor was never run overspeed. I never let it go over 5k rpm and even then, only for a moment or so. That is well withing the limits of an 8" ADC. I have a chart of what speeds I can go in which gear for X rpm's. I am the only person who drives this vehicle. My "hunch" is the brushes were never put in quite right (or maybe messed up in shipping?) because the car has never felt like it's had the power it should for the components it has.


I can tell your like me and a bit meticulous with everything to say the least. I think you just got unlucky and have a defective motor. Are you still under warranty?


----------



## PatricioIN (Jun 13, 2008)

bblocher said:


> I can tell your like me and a bit meticulous with everything to say the least. I think you just got unlucky and have a defective motor. Are you still under warranty?


2 yr warranty - bought under 6 months ago


----------



## major (Apr 4, 2008)

PatricioIN said:


> I know the motor was never run overspeed. I never let it go over 5k rpm and even then, only for a moment or so. That is well withing the limits of an 8" ADC. I have a chart of what speeds I can go in which gear for X rpm's. I am the only person who drives this vehicle. My "hunch" is the brushes were never put in quite right (or maybe messed up in shipping?) because the car has never felt like it's had the power it should for the components it has.


I don't think that brush problems were the first problem. And that will not explain the armature coil disconnection from the comm riser. Maybe that connection failure happened the first time you went over 5k RPM for only a moment or so.

Just my opinion. I've seen a lot of motors, the good, the bad and the ugly.

major


----------



## PatricioIN (Jun 13, 2008)

well I know almost nothing about electric motors, so I'm no position to theorize actually.. but if 5k rpm caused failure, then it's certainly still a defect. The motor is rated at higher rpm's than that.


----------



## major (Apr 4, 2008)

PatricioIN said:


> well I know almost nothing about electric motors, so I'm no position to theorize actually.. but if 5k rpm caused failure, then it's certainly still a defect. The motor is rated at higher rpm's than that.


Maybe. Like I said, unusual to see just a single conductor/riser failure.

Send it back to from where it came and see what they say.

Good luck,

major


----------



## PatricioIN (Jun 13, 2008)

Advanced "motor performance curves" for this motor go from 0-8500 rmp and 0-850amps and 0-100ft/lbs torque for various voltages 72-120


----------



## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

How about this scenario? A faulty brush has a piece break off which knocks off chunks from the other brushes and one of those chunks jams into the comm riser and messes it up?


----------



## ElectriCar (Jun 15, 2008)

Whew! You let some smoke out of this thing! Hate this happened but keep us posted about your conversations with Advanced.


----------



## PatricioIN (Jun 13, 2008)

yeah, I don't know... but I found this info from another motor speed thread posted by ZEMMO

203-06-4001 - 8" Dia. Motor

120 Volts
Time on Volts Amps RPM HP KW
5 Minutes 111 300 4650 37.0 28.0
1 Hour 114 180 6200 24.0 18.0
*Continuous 115 165 6500 21.7 16.3*

I NEVER run it up to 6500rpms...


----------



## tj4fa (May 25, 2008)

major said:


> I don't think that brush problems were the first problem. And that will not explain the armature coil disconnection from the comm riser. Maybe that connection failure happened the first time you went over 5k RPM for only a moment or so.
> 
> Just my opinion. I've seen a lot of motors, the good, the bad and the ugly.
> 
> major


Would this coil disconnection from the comm riser thing result in reduced performance for the last couple days like Patrick said in his initial thread



> "I thought the last couple of times that I drove it that it seemed even less powerful than usual, but it's been cold here again, so figured it was just the weather."


or would this be a sudden catastrophic event?


----------



## major (Apr 4, 2008)

tj4fa said:


> Would this coil disconnection from the comm riser thing result in reduced performance for the last couple days like Patrick said in his initial thread


Hi tj4fa,

Been thinking about it myself. Back in my former life, the shop misconnected a prototype motor of mine resulting in a single open coil in a 2 circuit armature, as what this ADC is. It was pretty easy to tell something was amiss once we got in on the dyno. Like it was 30 years ago and I don't remember the exact symptoms.

Anyway, I suspect this one would have kept running. It would have effectively 2 times the armature resistance, so that in itself would make performance suck. And, I suspect lots of brush arcing, which eats power.

As long as I'm on it, I really don't like the looks of the bearing housing bore in the comm end head (CEH) under the brush plate in that photo. I think maybe something else is going on there. Hey Patricio, how was the condition of the comm end bearing?

Sorry you had the failure, but neat puzzle.

major


----------



## PatricioIN (Jun 13, 2008)

major said:


> Hi tj4fa,
> 
> Been thinking about it myself. Back in my former life, the shop misconnected a prototype motor of mine resulting in a single open coil in a 2 circuit armature, as what this ADC is. It was pretty easy to tell something was amiss once we got in on the dyno. Like it was 30 years ago and I don't remember the exact symptoms.
> 
> ...


uh.. fine I think. I really know nothing about electric motors. The motor does still spin freely though.


----------



## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

Pat I don't suppose if you know if the controller made it through this OK do you? It may have suffered a bit as well.

brian


----------



## PatricioIN (Jun 13, 2008)

rctous said:


> Pat I don't suppose if you know if the controller made it through this OK do you? It may have suffered a bit as well.
> 
> brian


As far as I know the controller is ok. I did voltage tests on the controller and it tested fine. I am sending pics of the damaged motor to KTA now, who is forwarding my warranty claim to ADC.


----------



## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

one really easy way to test the controller is to "shake it" if it rattles there is an issue. this of course is not a 100% test but the currents and voltages we deal with when stuff blows it blows apart and there are usually pieces left behind that will rattle. I am assuming your warranty will go well but what a bummer being without a car for awhile ( believe me I can relate) heck man it is withdrawls in the worst way, keep your head up , fix it and move on.

Brian


----------



## ElectriCar (Jun 15, 2008)

You can test it with some light bulbs, in fact you can probably test it with one. This is how we used to test drives (controllers) on machines in the field when there was a question if the motor was bad or not. The lamp will simulate a motor up until the filament current fails. You can give it part throttle and it should glow. More throttle = brighter light. If that is satisfactory I'd say the drive is ok.

Just buy a lamp socket at the hardware store or such, screw in a 100W lamp and connect the wires where the motor was. You can use jumper wires as the lamp will limit the current unless you really crank it up at which point the lamp will probably fail anyway. Hit the ignition, give it a tad of throttle and watch it glow!


----------



## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

ElectriCar said:


> You can test it with some light bulbs, in fact you can probably test it with one. This is how we used to test drives (controllers) on machines in the field when there was a question if the motor was bad or not. The lamp will simulate a motor up until the filament current fails. You can give it part throttle and it should glow. More throttle = brighter light. If that is satisfactory I'd say the drive is ok.
> 
> Just buy a lamp socket at the hardware store or such, screw in a 100W lamp and connect the wires where the motor was. You can use jumper wires as the lamp will limit the current unless you really crank it up at which point the lamp will probably fail anyway. Hit the ignition, give it a tad of throttle and watch it glow!


well that sound easy enough as well

Brian


----------



## 85Turbo (Jun 27, 2008)

Hi PatricioIN,

im only new here, but have been lurking for some time.

i have read all this thread, and followed your link to the build blog.

im wondering what might have caused the brush failure too.
did you run the motor on 12V when new for some time to "seat" the brushes correctly ?

you did mention running the motor in the blog, but only for breif periods.
i have been told that in order to seat the brushes on a new motor, it should be run on 12V at low rpm for about 30 mins.

as i said, im only new to all this, and about to get started on my build soon. so take what i have said lightly, as i may be completely off the mark.....

im planing to use the same motor, so i would like to know what the final verdict is on the cause.

Jason.


----------



## ElectriCar (Jun 15, 2008)

85Turbo said:


> ...
> i have been told that in order to seat the brushes on a new motor, it should be run on 12V at low rpm for about 30 mins.


You have been misinformed. That isn't going to do anything of any significance. To seat the brushes properly you need a brush seater stone. It's a white sandstone like thing that come in various sizes. Last one I bought was made by Ideal. 

To do this you open the brush covers, energize the motor and insert the stone just in front of the brushes. It's non conductive so it won't shock you but be careful not to touch the brush wire or holder! You must run the motor fast enough that the stone dust is carried underneath the brush. This will clean the commutator as well as grind the brush so that it is concave and conforms to the surface of the commutator. 

You may need to apply it to each brush but the dust may circle the commutator and seat them all but probably not. I'd probably do it at least twice at 180 degree intervals, skipping every other brush holder. Shut it off and remove any brush to see how you've done. I like to do it so that the entire brush end is making contact. That is the most efficient and will minimize arcing due to high currents versus a non seated brush.

I found one here. There's a link at the top right for where to buy them.


----------



## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

What about just holding a brush against a sanding drum or grinding wheel the same diameter as the comm? Seems like that would be faster.


----------



## PatricioIN (Jun 13, 2008)

honestly, this is all new to me.. I've not heard of anyone doing this with a new motor, nor was there any mention of this from my supplier. Why wouldn't the motor be perfectly able to work properly as soon as it is installed? I did, after all, drive the EV for over 1000 miles before I had this problem.


----------



## ElectriCar (Jun 15, 2008)

JRP3 said:


> What about just holding a brush against a sanding drum or grinding wheel the same diameter as the comm? Seems like that would be faster.


That would be better than nothing, using crocus cloth would be best, the finer the better. And that would probably work well, provided you can align the brush with the wheel at the proper angle. Some holders are perpendicular and some aren't. 

However it's nothing to seat brushes and doing it as I described earlier definitely would be faster than doing it this way and it would be right. With a stone you can have it done in 5 minutes once you got the covers off. I'd suggest also that the car be placed on jack stands and it neutral to boot. Really don't matter if it's under load (in gear) or not. 

Unless you're in the forest somewhere living off grid, you should be able to procure a seater stone in a week or less. You could try a motor rewind shop or electrical suppliers in the area as well.


----------



## major (Apr 4, 2008)

85Turbo said:


> did you run the motor on 12V when new for some time to "seat" the brushes correctly ?
> 
> i have been told that in order to seat the brushes on a new motor, it should be run on 12V at low rpm for about 30 mins.


Hi Jason,

Ideally brushes should be seated well before they are subjected to heavy current or high speed. This is often confused with shaping. Shaping brushes is done with a "stone". It applies an abrasive grit to the comm surface as it rotates and grinds the brush contact surface to the shape (diameter) of the comm, almost. Just the presence of the grit particles will make a slight difference. Shaping can also be done by wrapping crocus cloth around the comm and "sanding" the brush faces by turning the motor shaft and using the comm as a drum grinder. Do not use sand paper. Silicone is bad for the motor.

Actually, shaping the brushes should be done at the motor factory.

Seating of the brushes is a different process. A shaped brush face will look like it has just been sanded all in one direction. The face of a seated brush will be smooth and shiny. Seating requires current, RPM and time. It is actually a chemical process. Fully seating a set of brushes on one of these motors may take several hundreds of hours under load. Not something the factory is going to do for you.

So. I have seen it suggested that the user free run the motor prior to installation to seat the brushes. I think it is an excellent idea. Is it necessary? In most cases, probably not. But if I just paid a couple thousand dollars for the motor, I'd do it. And at 12 volts no-load, I'd run it in for several days, maybe 4 to 8 hours per day. In the direction of rotation you intend for forward in the car. And seating will go faster if the brush is shaped first. But shaping does not seat the brush.

Why? A properly seated brush and the associated film on the comm will provide the best performance. This means the lowest voltage drop, the least friction and the longer life. Probably the worst thing that can be done is to overload the unseated brushes. So, if you don't seat brushes on the bench, or even if you do, give your motor a break-in period. Take it real easy (current wise) for the first hundred miles. And maybe a little easy for the next hundred. Maybe check a couple of brush faces and see if they are seating. Then maybe consider the drag strip.

Regards,

major


----------



## BWH (Sep 26, 2008)

major said:


> Actually, shaping the brushes should be done at the motor factory...
> 
> Fully seating a set of brushes on one of these motors may take several hundreds of hours under load. Not something the factory is going to do for you.



Hi Major. 

NetGain says in their literature that their motors have "Fully 90% plus brush wear-in". I have seen some sites call this "factory preseating".

Do you think they are really seating the brushes or just shaping like you said?


----------



## major (Apr 4, 2008)

BWH said:


> Hi Major.
> 
> NetGain says in their literature that their motors have "Fully 90% plus brush wear-in". I have seen some sites call this "factory preseating".
> 
> Do you think they are really seating the brushes or just shaping like you said?


That would be shaping in my book. Well, I don't really have my own book, but have read several on this subject. Anybody got pictures of the brushes off one of those?

Regards,

major


----------



## ElectriCar (Jun 15, 2008)

The brushes on this motor were apparently just inserted and the cover closed. They had maybe a third of the surface area contacting the armature and that's not good for heavy loading. I don't understand why other than to save a buck or the process somehow just got skipped at the factory.


----------



## tj4fa (May 25, 2008)

ElectriCar said:


> The brushes on this motor were apparently just inserted and the cover closed. They had maybe a third of the surface area contacting the armature and that's not good for heavy loading. I don't understand why other than to save a buck or the process somehow just got skipped at the factory.


Here's a link to a good article on motor brushes with some photos of good and bad brush marks on the commutators.

Maybe Patrick can compare his commutator with the ones at the bottom of the page to see what kind of brush wear he has.

http://www.reliance.com/mtr/cmdcbr.htm


----------



## ElectriCar (Jun 15, 2008)

I didn't read the entire article but I didn't see anything about seating new brushes. However that was a good article. 

Here's another source for brush seater stones.


----------



## PatricioIN (Jun 13, 2008)

well I finally got authorization from Advanced to send the motor to them. All that means is that based on the description and pics, they couldn't see anything that was obviously my fault! I havent' been able to get the coupler off the drive shaft yet. Will either have to figure that out or build a longer box before I send it to NY.


----------



## TheSGC (Nov 15, 2007)

PatricioIN said:


> well I finally got authorization from Advanced to send the motor to them. All that means is that based on the description and pics, they couldn't see anything that was obviously my fault! I havent' been able to get the coupler off the drive shaft yet. Will either have to figure that out or build a longer box before I send it to NY.


I know your pain. I just sent my FB1-4001A to the machine shop, but I had to remove my coupling from my other motor to give to them also. I had to use a pulley remover to get it off. Well, I first had to modify the pulley remover so it fit over my coupling. 

Maybe you should try some PB Blaster or WD-40 and give it a few hours to penetrate through, then have at it again. I wouldn't ship it back with your coupling because they may not repair the motor, but just replace it, and it would suck if your coupling got "lost" or damaged.


----------



## PatricioIN (Jun 13, 2008)

TheSGC said:


> I know your pain. I just sent my FB1-4001A to the machine shop, but I had to remove my coupling from my other motor to give to them also. I had to use a pulley remover to get it off. Well, I first had to modify the pulley remover so it fit over my coupling.
> 
> Maybe you should try some PB Blaster or WD-40 and give it a few hours to penetrate through, then have at it again. I wouldn't ship it back with your coupling because they may not repair the motor, but just replace it, and it would suck if your coupling got "lost" or damaged.


yeah, I thought about something like that. The problem is there is only about 1/16" space between motor face and coupler. I really don't want to have to have another coupler made.


----------



## PatricioIN (Jun 13, 2008)

I tried soaking it with wd40 over night.. twice. I tried heating it... it just won't budge. Problem is ( I think) that I followed someone's advice to put locktite on my coupler! No, really I think it has formed just enough rust to wedge itself in place.


----------



## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Were you able to back off the set screws? If so have you tried hitting the coupler with a hammer? Even trying to hit the end of it driving it towards the motor might break it loose so you can move it.


----------



## PatricioIN (Jun 13, 2008)

JRP3 said:


> Were you able to back off the set screws? If so have you tried hitting the coupler with a hammer? Even trying to hit the end of it driving it towards the motor might break it loose so you can move it.


Dude... simple minds are the best minds. I thought I'd try your way... took me one minute to get it off. 

sort of like the 100 firemen standing around trying to get a semi from under an overpass it wedged into; takes a five year old to tell 'em to let the air out of the tires... Not saying you're a five year old!!! Just that simple is almost always best!


----------



## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Glad it worked. I've been dealing with rusted crap for years


----------



## PatricioIN (Jun 13, 2008)

actually, there was no rust at all between the two.. the locktite was just doing it's job. A bit too well.


----------



## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Was it the blue or red locktite?


----------



## Jimdear2 (Oct 12, 2008)

A little trick I learned when disassembling components that were assembled with lock tite.

A *little *heat goes a long way to softening the material and makes disassembly easier.

A *lot* of heat makes two pieces, ONE piece forever.


----------



## PatricioIN (Jun 13, 2008)

blue locktite.. It just needed to be loosened up a bit it seems.


----------



## BWH (Sep 26, 2008)

Hey PatricioIN. I'm glad that it sounds like the motor problem will be covered under warranty. The down time is rough though. Perhaps someday all the local garages will turn into electric motor repair centers. 



> That would be shaping in my book. Well, I don't really have my own book, but have read several on this subject. Anybody got pictures of the brushes off one of those?
> 
> Regards,
> 
> major


I took a few. There are some more here but I think these are the best.


----------



## Thaniel (May 25, 2008)

BWH said:


> Hey PatricioIN. I'm glad that it sounds like the motor problem will be covered under warranty. The down time is rough though. Perhaps someday all the local garages will turn into electric motor repair centers.
> 
> I took a few. There are some more here but I think these are the best.


Those are from a warp9? They don't look all that contoured. I thought I read somewhere in the literature that the motor needed a break in of 6 hours. I can't find it again. I've been running mine in about 20 min at a time (untill the 12 v battery runs out of juice). Anyone else know anything about "break in" periods?


----------



## major (Apr 4, 2008)

Thaniel said:


> They don't look all that contoured. I thought I read somewhere in the literature that the motor needed a break in of 6 hours. I can't find it again. Anyone else know anything about "break in" periods?


Hi Thaniel,

Look back at post #58 in this thread.

major


----------



## major (Apr 4, 2008)

BWH said:


> I took a few. There are some more here but I think these are the best.


Hi BWH,

You can see like a 50% difference on that brush face. I'd say that it has been fully shaped and is starting to seat on the shiny half of the face. The comm surface has practically no film. Brand new motor, hey. Run it in for a few hours and recheck. Over and over until the whole face gets shiny and the comm films, gets a nice patina, as Jim Husted calls it. If all that is too much work for ya, take it easy after you get rolling under battery power. Check back after a couple hundred miles and you'll see what I'm talking about. It is impossible to tell how long it takes to get a good seat or film. Too many variables, like load, RPM, humidity, temperature, etc.

Regards,

major

PS...Please count the number of comm bars and let me know. thanks..


----------



## PatricioIN (Jun 13, 2008)

update: sent my motor back to Advanced Motors and Drives yesterday.. $100! yikes.. anyway, they should have it in a couple of days, so we'll see what they say.


----------



## BWH (Sep 26, 2008)

Wow, it's almost cheaper to take a road trip and deliver it yourself. 




major said:


> Brand new motor, hey. Run it in for a few hours and recheck. Over and over until the whole face gets shiny and the comm films, gets a nice patina, as Jim Husted calls it.
> 
> PS...Please count the number of comm bars and let me know. thanks..


Yep, it's fresh out of the box. 

I'd love to do this but the garage I'm working out of is several miles away so I don't get out there everyday. I tried to use an old 12v 6a battery charger that was laying around so I could just plug it in and leave it for a few hours, but it wasn't strong enough.

There are 49 bars.


----------



## PatricioIN (Jun 13, 2008)

I miss my electric car.


----------



## TheSGC (Nov 15, 2007)

PatricioIN said:


> I miss my electric car.


Did ADC/AMC give you an estimate when you will get it back?


----------



## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

PatricioIN said:


> I miss my electric car.


Dude I feel ya total withdrawls

Brian


----------



## PatricioIN (Jun 13, 2008)

no kidding.. I am forced to drive a freaking Prius.. just sucking down the gas! lol..

I have had no direct contact with ADC, have worked through KTA who supplied the motor. No idea on a time frame. For all I know, they've already shipped me a new one - or the crate hasn't even been opened yet. *shrug*


----------



## PatricioIN (Jun 13, 2008)

Just got word from Wistar at KTA that ADC is sending me a brand new replacement motor under warranty and reimbursing what I spent to ship damaged motor to them. I have to say I'm very pleased with ADC. And I have been very pleased with all the service I've rec'd from KTA through this whole EV process. 

They didn't give him a reason why the motor went bad, but he is going to try and find out from the technician who examined it. I will be out of town on vacation all next week, so shouldn't see new motor until second week of April. Should only take a couple/few hours to get everything back together and on the road though. EV days are returning soon!


----------



## bblocher (Jul 30, 2008)

Well that's as good of news as you can get. Glad to hear that is all working out for you.


----------



## BWH (Sep 26, 2008)

That ended well.


----------



## Joel (Jul 29, 2008)

if you can, please show us some pictures of the new motor, and take out the brushes to see what they look like for your specific model and see how they compare.
I'm going to take a close look at mine because of this thread.

I ran the motor on 12V for a while when I got it, but I wonder if they are seated properly as this is the first i've heard of using "seating stones"
(wouldn't that add abrasive materials to the commutator and then cause grooving?)


----------



## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

so you get your new motor ,,, when???

Brian


----------



## PatricioIN (Jun 13, 2008)

they were going to send it last week, but I was on vacation all week so I asked them to wait.. should get it this week.


----------



## EV59RAG (Oct 6, 2008)

any update Patricio?


----------



## PatricioIN (Jun 13, 2008)

sooooooooooo... I finally got the new motor on Friday. Got around to installing it and putting the EV back together today. I have to say I am very pleased. The new motor seems smoother and quieter than the first one. Plus, the bit of "jerkiness" that I had in my drivetrain before is now totally gone. Don't know if that was motor or weather related... but it's gone. My EV seems to be running great now. Of course, it's only been out for about a 4 mile run. I will take it easy the first couple of hundred miles to break in the new motor.

fyi.. the motor was replaced for free from ADC under warranty and they are also supposed to be reimbursing me what I spent on shipping it back to them.


----------



## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Good to hear


----------



## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

probably the third best feelig a person can have.

great news Pat!

Brian


----------

