# [EVDL] NPR story on electric vehicle charging program.



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

http://www.npr.org/player/v2/mediaPlayer.html?action=1&t=1&islist=false&id=132020612&m=132020598

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Lawrence,
This is about $8 billion to build and stock battery swapping stations!
The speaker is Shai Agassi CEO of Better Place. He also mentioned the
"Project Get Ready" program and another program however those are mostly for
home charging stations, not highway recharging locations.
Agassi also mentioned A-B-C which he defined as Automobiles, Batteries,
and Charging. It immediately came to my mind that I learned the entire
alphabet not just the first three letters, and we called them the ABC'S
Therefore I would add the letter S to his comment as "S"ervice is always
left out but is definitely necessary!
Regards,
*Dennis Lee Miles* (Director) *E.V.T.I. inc*.
*www.E-V-T-I-Inc.COM <http://www.e-v-t-i-inc.com/> *(Adviser)*
EVTI-EVA Education
Chapter*
Phone (813) ID4 - E V T I or (813) 434 - 3884
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
On Mon, Dec 13, 2010 at 11:23 AM, Lawrence Rhodes <


> [email protected]> wrote:
> 
> >
> > http://www.npr.org/player/v2/mediaPlayer.html?action=1&t=1&islist=false&id=132020612&m=132020598
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Great progress, but a couple things aren't clear.
1. does $8B cover just the cost of the charging stations, or also
improvements to the infrastructure?
2. what level of charger?

Let me expound on the latter. I think for most people, 100 mile range with
20 minute charging will not be popular. Maybe at 200 miles with 5 minute
charging. But to do that, let's take a simple example:

- Say you have a car that gets 250wh/m (possible, but probably optimistic at
freeway speeds)
- The goal is 200 miles on a charge.
- Not counting losses, that's 50kwh
- To deliver that in 5 minutes requires a 600kw service.
- At 440v, that would be 1364a
Wow! I'm not sure Agassi is providing for that within an $8B estimate.

Peri


-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf
Of Dennis Miles
Sent: 13 December, 2010 9:03 AM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] NPR story on electric vehicle charging program.

Lawrence,
This is about $8 billion to build and stock battery swapping stations!
The speaker is Shai Agassi CEO of Better Place. He also mentioned the
"Project Get Ready" program and another program however those are mostly for
home charging stations, not highway recharging locations.
Agassi also mentioned A-B-C which he defined as Automobiles, Batteries,
and Charging. It immediately came to my mind that I learned the entire
alphabet not just the first three letters, and we called them the ABC'S
Therefore I would add the letter S to his comment as "S"ervice is always
left out but is definitely necessary!
Regards,
*Dennis Lee Miles* (Director) *E.V.T.I. inc*.
*www.E-V-T-I-Inc.COM <http://www.e-v-t-i-inc.com/> *(Adviser)*
EVTI-EVA Education
Chapter*
Phone (813) ID4 - E V T I or (813) 434 - 3884
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------
On Mon, Dec 13, 2010 at 11:23 AM, Lawrence Rhodes <


> [email protected]> wrote:
> 
> >
> > http://www.npr.org/player/v2/mediaPlayer.html?action=1&t=1&islist=fals
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Don't forget, he primarily wants to speed things up by swapping
battery packs, not fast charging. Just one of the many problems I see
with his whole scheme.

DAC



> Peri Hartman <[email protected]> wrote:
> > Great progress, but a couple things aren't clear.
> > 1. does $8B cover just the cost of the charging stations, or also
> > improvements to the infrastructure?
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

It has been said before - high power needs high voltage.
At a typical 11kV from the medium voltage grid (which 
runs on overhead wires, maybe even through your backyard)
the 600kW is only 55A unless it is 3-phase then it is
even lower. 
It also has been said that there will be few high power
fast-charge "convenience stores" as most everyone
will opt for slow and cheaper overnight charging.
But if you want to make a long trip and have a few
bucks extra to spend for the fast charge, then that
convenience may be viable (I mean, it may have a
positive business case as money-making enterprise,
to have fast-charging stations at regular places along 
highways in the same way that we have gas stations now
though I believe there will not be a need for so many
charging stations as there are gas outlets today.
Time will tell.

Cor van de Water
Director HW & Systems Architecture Group
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
Email: [email protected] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [email protected]
Tel: +1 408 383 7626 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Tel: +91 (040)23117400 x203 XoIP: +31877841130

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On
Behalf Of Peri Hartman
Sent: Tuesday, December 14, 2010 1:51 AM
To: 'Electric Vehicle Discussion List'
Subject: Re: [EVDL] NPR story on electric vehicle charging program.

Great progress, but a couple things aren't clear.
1. does $8B cover just the cost of the charging stations, or also
improvements to the infrastructure?
2. what level of charger?

Let me expound on the latter. I think for most people, 100 mile range
with 20 minute charging will not be popular. Maybe at 200 miles with 5
minute charging. But to do that, let's take a simple example:

- Say you have a car that gets 250wh/m (possible, but probably
optimistic at freeway speeds)
- The goal is 200 miles on a charge.
- Not counting losses, that's 50kwh
- To deliver that in 5 minutes requires a 600kw service.
- At 440v, that would be 1364a
Wow! I'm not sure Agassi is providing for that within an $8B estimate.

Peri


-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On
Behalf Of Dennis Miles
Sent: 13 December, 2010 9:03 AM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] NPR story on electric vehicle charging program.

Lawrence,
This is about $8 billion to build and stock battery swapping
stations!
The speaker is Shai Agassi CEO of Better Place. He also mentioned the
"Project Get Ready" program and another program however those are mostly
for home charging stations, not highway recharging locations.
Agassi also mentioned A-B-C which he defined as Automobiles,
Batteries, and Charging. It immediately came to my mind that I learned
the entire alphabet not just the first three letters, and we called them
the ABC'S Therefore I would add the letter S to his comment as "S"ervice
is always left out but is definitely necessary!
Regards,
*Dennis Lee Miles* (Director) *E.V.T.I. inc*.
*www.E-V-T-I-Inc.COM <http://www.e-v-t-i-inc.com/> *(Adviser)*
EVTI-EVA Education
Chapter*
Phone (813) ID4 - E V T I or (813) 434 - 3884
------------------------------------------------------------------------
----
---------------
On Mon, Dec 13, 2010 at 11:23 AM, Lawrence Rhodes <


> [email protected]> wrote:
> 
> >
> > http://www.npr.org/player/v2/mediaPlayer.html?action=1&t=1&islist=fals
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Perhaps we can get a comment from Steve Clunn at Greenshed.com but IIRC he
fast-charged his mower from his pickup pack then recharged the pickup from a
homeowners outlet while he cut their lawn with the mower, and trailered the
mower to the next lawn service client and repeated the action.

Why not use a similar setup at a highway FAST recharging station, several
cycle packs are charged at the one or two hour rate and are connected to the
EV pack to recharge the EV in 15 minutes or less. the load to the grid is
leveled at a substantially lowered and the EVs receive a Quick as possible
re-charge. As business grows in the coming years add more batteries to the
Re-charging station's cycle packs.



> Cor van de Water <[email protected]>wrote:
> 
> > It has been said before - high power needs high voltage.
> > At a typical 11kV from the medium voltage grid (which
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

That would work in low demand areas. But along a freeway where people are
queing up, you might as well use a high wattage source directly. There
comes a point where the rate in (from the power lines) equals the rate out
throughout most of the day. At that point, any advantages of charging a
"dump-charge" pack are lost. 

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf
Of Dennis Miles
Sent: 14 December, 2010 9:12 AM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] NPR story on electric vehicle charging program.

Perhaps we can get a comment from Steve Clunn at Greenshed.com but IIRC he
fast-charged his mower from his pickup pack then recharged the pickup from a
homeowners outlet while he cut their lawn with the mower, and trailered the
mower to the next lawn service client and repeated the action.

Why not use a similar setup at a highway FAST recharging station, several
cycle packs are charged at the one or two hour rate and are connected to the
EV pack to recharge the EV in 15 minutes or less. the load to the grid is
leveled at a substantially lowered and the EVs receive a Quick as possible
re-charge. As business grows in the coming years add more batteries to the
Re-charging station's cycle packs.



> Cor van de Water <[email protected]>wrote:
> 
> > It has been said before - high power needs high voltage.
> > At a typical 11kV from the medium voltage grid (which runs on overhead
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

I agree Peri,
However the EVs queing up to fast re-charge might be several years away
and a "Dump-Charge" Pack system would prove the demand and give the
Electrical Distribution System time to "Catch-Up" and a proven demand to
increase available Power levels in what otherwise might be a remote area.
That will be far more likely than the "Vaporware" the utilities are using at
this time to justify major expansion of their grid. (I hope they are
visionary, not just greedy, in the quest for Tax-payer's monetary support
for expansion funding.)

Regards,
Dennis
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


> Peri Hartman <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> > That would work in low demand areas. But along a freeway where people are
> > queing up, you might as well use a high wattage source directly. There
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

From: Dennis Miles
>Perhaps we can get a comment from Steve Clunn at Greenshed.com but IIRC=
he
fast-charged his mower from his pickup pack then recharged the pickup from a
homeowners outlet while he cut their lawn with the mower, and trailered the
mower to the next lawn service client and repeated the action<

Yes, it was about 6 years ago when I converted my gas Dixie Chopper to
Electric. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3DtVFfOLpCupA And the next 3
years of lawn mowing was so much fun that I could barely give it up to
do Electric Car Conversions full time, which had been a dream of mine
since I did my first car. My whole set up from the truck to the
Electric Lawn Mower was an evolving situation. It didn't happen all
at once. And it evolved out of just making due out of Life's
Situations. Whenever I would get a new customer, I would tell them
about my Electric Vehicle and my need to charge and offer them
something in exchange to plug IN, if I needed to. If the customer
felt that plugging IN was worth $5.00 or more, I would put a little
check by their card, but never use their services. A third of my
customers were happy to let me plug in to their dryer outlet, if I
needed to. The lawn mower wasn't an "instant" success. When I first
got it going, I didn't have a fast charging seupt, or even thought the
possibility was there, so I would charge the lawn mower at home and
cut the lawns in the neighborhood. Then leave the Electric Mower at
home charging, and take the gas off to work. The Electric Mower was
so much nicer to use and my back up gas mower was wearing out. ( I
regularly wore out the gas engine every 2 years) So I was motivate to
get the Electric Mower to do more. I bought a PFC-50 and started
using the Mower and charging it from people's houses or pumping the
power from the Truck into the Mower. This worked, but definitely
slowed things up. I had read about "Dump Charging" on the internet
and set up a Resistor Bank for my first try. After cutting the
resistor bank back and still having things work, I made the jump and
plugged the 120V Truck directly IN to the 96V Lawn Mower and much to
my surprise, it was pretty much a "Non Event". No giant sparks (
the difference really was only 24V ) and much to my delight, the Amp
Gauge read 150 Amps. I watched the Voltmeter do a little "wave" ( at
the start of the charge the Voltage went up and then came back down
and then started going back up all within minutes ). This was really
the beginning. At 150Amps it doesn't take long to put back 20ah. I
had used AGM batteries in different cars and knew them that way. The
lawn mower and fast charging showed them in a different light. If the
Lawn Mower was a car and every lawn a 15 mile trip, I would have been
driving a 100 miles a day ... easy. If someone was determined to
drive their Electric Vehicle 150 miles a day, they could, just like
me, do it with a vehicle that had a 30 mile range and make 5 or 10
stops a day to charge for about 10 minutes. The AGM batteries, from
my experience, were very happy being charged this way. I believe the
batteries on the Lawn Mower experienced many more cycles than they
would have in a regular vehicle. Over the 3 years that I did the
lawns, I had 2 packs. And the first pack I lost by leaving it plugged
in too long. ( Mowing my OWN yard even ! ) A lot of times I see
people coming up with ideas on how others could do long distance
travel, but I think the people that actually do long distance EV
driving come up with solutions not often thought of. My "arm chair"
solution for long distance travelers in Electric Cars would be a
trailer full of batteries that one hooks up as they get ON the
interstate and drops off as they get off the interstate. It wouldn't
be too hard to have 100Kw of Lithium Batteries in a small U-Hal type
trailer, an Anderson Plug to plug your car IN and an OFF switch for
your car battery pack. One could run on the Trailer Batteries and
charge their EV at the same time. When they get OFF the interstate,
they leave the trailer at a charge station and the Batteries could
even be charged with Solar Panels then. No need for battery
"swapping" this way.

Steve Clunn
--
Tomorrows Ride TODAY !
Visit our shop web page at: www.Greenshedconversions.com

_______________________________________________
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| Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Now *there's* an idea! One issue in the UK that would dampen things 
is the 60mph limit on vehicles on the motorway that are towing. I 
expect there are others - those of a dainty disposition might baulk at 
hitching and unhitching trailers.

Mind you, why does everyone want to scream up and down the motorways 
all the time... sit back tootle along and let everyone else do al the 
overtaking and save your power, sanity and money!

Regards, Martin Winlow
Herts, UK
http://www.evalbum.com/2092
www.winlow.co.uk



> Steve Clunn wrote:
> 
> > From: Dennis Miles
> >> Perhaps we can get a comment from Steve Clunn at Greenshed.com but
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Hi, Steve,
Thanks for chiming in, I find learning from others and not reinventing
the wheel a valid technique.
I recalled your previous posts mentioned the dump charging and I
expect you read my entire post about a scheme whereby just a mid size
trailer (Say 20 ft long) could contain several large packs of high current
lead-acid batteries and charger, (Or several) to charge them without
disrupting the local electric utility grid.
I don't see long lines of EV at recharging stations for a couple years
so dump charging them is quick enough and a several hour recharge of the
packs in the trailer could still handle recharging 8 to 10 EV each day per
each pack in the trailer. Styling the trailer distinctively like a train
caboose perhaps and painted red so EV drivers could easily spot them.
Might be a good transitional business leasing space at existing gas
stations or selling /leasing the "EV Charging Caboose " to Fuel sales
operators. (They are in business to make money!) Could be a viable business
and might cost less than the $50K to set up a commercial EV recharger
station for retail sales.

Regards,
*Dennis Lee Miles* (Director) *E.V.T.I. inc*.
*www.E-V-T-I-Inc.COM <http://www.e-v-t-i-inc.com/> *(Adviser)*
EVTI-EVAEducation Chapter
*
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
The "Stone Age" didn't end because they ran out of Stones;
It ended because they started using their Brains !
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++




> Steve Clunn <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> > From: Dennis Miles
> > >Perhaps we can get a comment from Steve Clunn at Greenshed.com but IIRC
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

My thoughts on Project Better Place: 
http://ephase.blogspot.com/2010/12/project-better-place-exposed.html





> Lawrence Rhodes wrote:
> >
> > http://www.npr.org/player/v2/mediaPlayer.html?action=1&t=1&islist=false&id=132020612&m=132020598
> >
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Gosh, I read your blog and was so impressed I added a positive comment too.
Regards,
*Dennis Lee Miles*
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
The "Stone Age" didn't end because they ran out of Stones;
It ended because they started using their Brains !
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++



> AMPhibian <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> >
> > My thoughts on Project Better Place:
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Thanks for the feedback. A system that increases the cost and complexity of
EV's unnecessarily is not going to help the cause.


Dennis Miles wrote:
> 
> Gosh, I read your blog and was so impressed I added a positive comment
> too.
> Regards,
> *Dennis Lee Miles*
> ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
> The "Stone Age" didn't end because they ran out of Stones;
> It ended because they started using their Brains !
> +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
> 
>


> AMPhibian <[email protected]> wrote:
> >
> >>
> >> My thoughts on Project Better Place:
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> On 15 Dec 2010 at 11:19, Steve Clunn wrote:
> 
> > My "arm chair" solution for long distance travelers in Electric Cars
> > would be a trailer full of batteries that one hooks up as they get ON
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> On 15 Dec 2010 at 15:09, AMPhibian wrote:
> 
> > My thoughts on Project Better Place:
> 
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

My concern is that this model will catch on and become the dominant form,
with all EV manufacturers adopting the technology, driving up the cost of
every vehicle, and locking in a standardized pack that limits options and
innovation. This could mean being married to Better Place from the factory,
with no options. If BP catches on if you want a charge away from home you
might have to buy into their expensive system. It smells too much like oil
company monopoly. 




> EVDL Administrator wrote:
> >
> > On 15 Dec 2010 at 15:09, AMPhibian wrote:
> >
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Lee Hart wrote:
> 
> > On 12/16/2010 3:34 AM, EVDL Administrator wrote:
> >> Can you think of a way to couple the trailer that wouldn't require a
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Tell that to Amtrak.


On Thu, Dec 16, 2010 at 7:47 AM, Roger Heuckeroth


> <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> >
> > There's a reason that the engine on a train is pulling, not pushing.
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Yes, David,
I know of several successful ways to pull a trailer which do not
require a welded on hitch; Some bolt on thru existing holes in the frame.
Some hitches clamp to the "Pumpkin" in the center of the rear axle, these do
not strain the suspension and allow easier backing geometry similar to a 5th
wheel hitch. And there are also linkages connecting to rear suspension
mounting points which will steer a trailer when backing so it stays aligned
with the towing vehicle, some as simple as crossed chains preventing side to
side movement. since only a few feet of backing is required for many miles
of driving a little side "Scrubbing" has little affect on tire life, that
occurs only when backing with the chains holding the trailer in line. And
other schemes steering the trailer axle.
Regards,
*Dennis Lee Miles* (Director) *E.V.T.I. inc*.
*www.E-V-T-I-Inc.COM <http://www.e-v-t-i-inc.com/> *(Adviser)*
EVTI-EVAEducation Chapter
*
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
The "Stone Age" didn't end because they ran out of Stones;
It ended because they started using their Brains !
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
The "Age of OIL" won't end because we run out of OIL,
it will end because we realize Electricity is a Better Solution!
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++



> EVDL Administrator <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> > On 15 Dec 2010 at 11:19, Steve Clunn wrote:
> >
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Exactly right Lee,
<< Obviously, the "pusher" has to be designed to stop pushing when you
step on the brakes, etc.>>
We are not taking the "pusher" racing, I often pull my bumper hitched
horse trailer with four horses (about 6,000 lbs of cargo in a 3,000 lb
trailer) for a horse outing in Ocala,(75 miles away) and I usually don't use
the trailer brakes the entire round trip, I do increase my following
distance from two seconds to eight seconds (at any speed up to 75mph) and in
towns and approaching traffic lights and intersections I slow a little
extra, because the horses are not wearing seat-belts and I am protecting
them! The extra space and time allow me to slow and stop that 4.5 ton load
which is pushing me whenever I slow down and it never relaxes so I must use
extra care. But I never have been pushed sideways on curves or driven into a
skid except once on a wet road, and the extra space I provide myself was
enough to regain control and stop safely.
Regards,
*Dennis Lee Miles* (Director) *E.V.T.I. inc*.
*www.E-V-T-I-Inc.COM <http://www.e-v-t-i-inc.com/> *(Adviser)*
EVTI-EVAEducation Chapter
*
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
The "Stone Age" didn't end because they ran out of Stones;
It ended because they started using their Brains !
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++




> Lee Hart <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> > On 12/16/2010 9:47 AM, Roger Heuckeroth wrote:
> > > I would hate to be in a EV with a pusher trailer and have to do an
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> On 16 Dec 2010 at 5:06, AMPhibian wrote:
> 
> > My concern is that this model will catch on and become the dominant form, with
> > all EV manufacturers adopting the technology, driving up the cost of every
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> On 16 Dec 2010 at 15:10, Dennis Miles wrote:
> 
> > Some [hitches] bolt on thru existing holes in the frame ... [or] clamp
> > to the "Pumpkin" in the center of the rear axle ...
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

No insight, just a Borg like feeling I get from PBP. If you don't buy into
their "charge minutes" plan and their charge network becomes dominant, can
you still use their chargers? If packs must become standardized to use
their swap stations, will automakers make pack improvements if they are not
compatible with the swap stations? Will all vehicles start to look the
same? 
"We are Borg, resistance is futile."




> EVDL Administrator wrote:
> >
> > On 16 Dec 2010 at 5:06, AMPhibian wrote:
> >
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

A possible solution comes to my mind. Instead of making standardized
"Packs" make standardized "modules"
These modules would be small, say 35-50 lbs each.
It is obviously possible to standardize battery modules, witness the AA,
C, D and 9V batteries that are available world wide.

The advantage of small modules is that you aren't locked into a particular
size and shape for the pack, nor are you locked into a given capacity.
A city car might use 4 modules, highway capable vehicles might use 6-8,
pickup trucks maybe 12, tractor trailer rigs might use 40 or 50.

The cars could have some kind of conveyor belt system to load and unload
the batteries.
By using small modules, little out of the way service stations can swap
batteries by hand saving the cost of automated machinery. Larger service
stations could have automated stalls where you pull in and it rolls out
your discharged modules and loads in fresh ones, this could be done in a
couple minutes.
At home you could have a second set charging and manually swap them out in
5 to 10 minutes.
When the battery capacity drops below a certain level they get relegated
to some other function, possibly discount modules for people that can't
afford fully charge modules or load leveling for power companies.

Again there are a current industries that work well for exchanging used
product for fresh ones, trading in empty propane tanks for full ones, or
renting/exchanging welding gas cylinders, etc. These tanks need to be
tested periodically and eventually removed from service and discarded, the
retailer absorbs this cost.
Besides when it comes to vehicles many parts are already standardized. 
All vehicles currently use a standardized refueling system, they roll on
fairly standardized tires. Things like lights and windshield wipers are
mostly standardized.
Granted these standard come in several different sizes, but there is no
reason that battery modules couldn't also come in a couple different
sizes.

Fast charging seems like a better idea until one considers the power
requirements needed to fast charge thousands of vehicles simultaneously. 
The infrastructure upgrades needed to handle that kind of power and the
rapid changes in load associated with it are far more expensive than
developing battery swap infrastructure.

>
> My thoughts on Project Better Place:
> http://ephase.blogspot.com/2010/12/project-better-place-exposed.html
>
>
>


> > Lawrence Rhodes wrote:
> >>
> >> http://www.npr.org/player/v2/mediaPlayer.html?action=1&t=1&islist=false&id=132020612&m=132020598
> >>
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Many small modules with many tight high voltage connections that can be
repeatedly plugged and unplugged by a machine seems like a nightmare. PBP
is working on a single pack sized unit, not many small ones. If it catches
on that's what will become the standard. As for the charging infrastructure
for fast charging that would probably be handled by stationary batteries
charging up over night to dump charge during the day. Fast charging would
really be a rare occurrence for most people as home charging will be cheaper
and easier on the pack. Also, fast charging is relative and could range
from 5-30 minutes depending on actual needs.




> Peter VanDerWal wrote:
> >
> > A possible solution comes to my mind. Instead of making standardized
> > "Packs" make standardized "modules"
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

"The cars could have some kind of conveyor belt system to load and unload
the batteries.Larger service

stations could have automated stalls where you pull in and it rolls out your
discharged modules and loads in fresh ones, this could be done in a couple
minutes."



With a similar idea, in 1917 Milburn Light Electrics were offered by dealers
with leased battery packs and a battery exchange system provided whereby
their packs could be swapped within a few minutes.

Here's a 1917 photo showing the owner of Chicago's Fashion Auto Station and
Electric Garage demonstrating the ease of swapping battery packs:
http://www.milburn.us/images/fashion3.jpg

Apologies if I've mentioned this too many times before.

-Myles



-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf
Of [email protected]
Sent: Saturday, December 18, 2010 7:32 AM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] NPR story on electric vehicle charging program.



A possible solution comes to my mind. Instead of making standardized

"Packs" make standardized "modules"

These modules would be small, say 35-50 lbs each.

It is obviously possible to standardize battery modules, witness the AA,

C, D and 9V batteries that are available world wide.



The advantage of small modules is that you aren't locked into a particular

size and shape for the pack, nor are you locked into a given capacity.

A city car might use 4 modules, highway capable vehicles might use 6-8,

pickup trucks maybe 12, tractor trailer rigs might use 40 or 50.



The cars could have some kind of conveyor belt system to load and unload

the batteries.

By using small modules, little out of the way service stations can swap

batteries by hand saving the cost of automated machinery. Larger service

stations could have automated stalls where you pull in and it rolls out

your discharged modules and loads in fresh ones, this could be done in a

couple minutes.

At home you could have a second set charging and manually swap them out in

5 to 10 minutes.

When the battery capacity drops below a certain level they get relegated

to some other function, possibly discount modules for people that can't

afford fully charge modules or load leveling for power companies.



Again there are a current industries that work well for exchanging used

product for fresh ones, trading in empty propane tanks for full ones, or

renting/exchanging welding gas cylinders, etc. These tanks need to be

tested periodically and eventually removed from service and discarded, the

retailer absorbs this cost.

Besides when it comes to vehicles many parts are already standardized. 

All vehicles currently use a standardized refueling system, they roll on

fairly standardized tires. Things like lights and windshield wipers are

mostly standardized.

Granted these standard come in several different sizes, but there is no

reason that battery modules couldn't also come in a couple different

sizes.



Fast charging seems like a better idea until one considers the power

requirements needed to fast charge thousands of vehicles simultaneously. 

The infrastructure upgrades needed to handle that kind of power and the

rapid changes in load associated with it are far more expensive than

developing battery swap infrastructure.



> 

> My thoughts on Project Better Place:

> http://ephase.blogspot.com/2010/12/project-better-place-exposed.html

> 

> 

> 



> > Lawrence Rhodes wrote:
> 
> >>
> 
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

By the time this will be to market, hopefully never in my opinion, they will
have dump charging all taken care of. You will fill your battery pack as
fast as you fill your tank today. Before you argue with me about the
currents needed off the grid for dump charging answer this. In this battery
exchange fiasco, when there is a line of cars waiting for a battery
exchange, how do you charge them fast enough to turn them around for the
next user? You end up with the same grid current problem. 

Next problem, I don't want to exchange into a set of batteries that some kid
just got done hot roding with! Probably get half the distance or even burn
my car down.

I could go on but to be short, in my opinion, this battery exchange thing is
"pure nonsense"

Sincerely,
Mark Grasser


-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf
Of AMPhibian
Sent: Saturday, December 18, 2010 6:03 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [EVDL] NPR story on electric vehicle charging program.


Many small modules with many tight high voltage connections that can be
repeatedly plugged and unplugged by a machine seems like a nightmare. PBP
is working on a single pack sized unit, not many small ones. If it catches
on that's what will become the standard. As for the charging infrastructure
for fast charging that would probably be handled by stationary batteries
charging up over night to dump charge during the day. Fast charging would
really be a rare occurrence for most people as home charging will be cheaper
and easier on the pack. Also, fast charging is relative and could range
from 5-30 minutes depending on actual needs.




> Peter VanDerWal wrote:
> >
> > A possible solution comes to my mind. Instead of making standardized
> > "Packs" make standardized "modules"
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> > A possible solution comes to my mind. Instead of making standardized
> > "Packs" make standardized "modules"
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

If they really got it down, I feel there is a good market for it. I am
not one who leeases cars, but look at how many people who do.

Maybe the tipping point is standards. A group of like minded individuals
needs to come up with a set of standards that start simple and are
upward compatible.

Face it, not many of us know what is really going on inside a video
card, but the mechanical, electrical, and protocol standard allows many
companies to compete for the market.

Multiple standards, upward compatible to some degree, have allowed growth.

I wonder where we could find such a group? ;-)


>


> <[email protected]> wrote:
> >
> >
> >> > A possible solution comes to my mind. Instead of making standardized
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Dennis Miles wrote:
> 
> > On Sat, Dec 18, 2010 at 10:32 AM, <[email protected]> wrote:
> >
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Exactly. It's a huge engineering and logistical problem for a situation that
will rarely be needed. How often would you visit a gas station if your tank
were full every morning? Even if the BP network knows where all it's packs
are at all times they can't react fast enough if for some reason a lot of
drivers start heading to one swap station. They'd have to start driving
extra packs around from one swap station to another in large trucks, not
exactly an efficient way to move electrons. This is actually the entire
concept of Kandi in China, using trucks to bring swappable packs back and
forth from swap stations to the power plants instead of building up the
charging infrastructure.




> Lee Hart wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

"It's a huge engineering and logistical problem for a situation that will
rarely be needed." It can't be both can it? If rarely needed, then there
wouldn't be a large fluctuation in local demand, just a small minority
making use of this option. The analogy of a car with full gas tank each
morning is not so good since that would give you about 300-400 mile range,
whereas an ev with full pack would be 100 miles or less typically (assuming
most don't purchase Teslas). I think that the majority could easily get by
with 100 mile range for the great majority of days of the year, but there
are some, particularly in more rural states like Montana or Wyoming, who
regularly travel much further. But again, a partial solution is better than
none. More ev's where they can be used means more gas for Montanans as
supply dwindles.

Myself, I see BP filling only a niche role at best, and I expect that
progress in battery technology may make them obsolete within the next 15
years or so (that is for volume production, not demonstration of
feasibility).
-- 
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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

"The analogy of a car with full gas tank each morning is not so good
since that would give you about 300-400 mile range, whereas an ev with
full pack would be 100 miles or less typically (assuming most don't
purchase Teslas)."

It's actually a very good analogy, especially if you work to setup
charging stations in your area where you commute (and not just rely on
charging at home). 50%/25mi - 80%/50mi: 50% of Americans who drive go
25 miles or less a day, 80% go 50mi or less*. Your tank is always full
-- the key here is "for the trips you need"

You can't always get what you want, 
but if you try sometimes
you just might find
you get what you need

For the majority of Americans, those long-range trips requiring a
300-400 mile range are a red herring, ie, a distracter from the real
issue: liquid fuels such as running a diesel engine on 100% Canada Oil
(Canola Oil/Rapeseed) or B100 (Biodiesel 100) are far more economic and
more environmentally sound (based on CO2 emissions**) than loading up on
batteries and running an EV on Coal/Nuke (US Grid). However these trips
occur with such relative infrequency (and have far better mileage for an
ICE than in-town ICE) that the focus needs to be on replacing local
transit with EV (and long range transit with Canola-Oil fueled trains).


You know, when *I* rule the world ;-)

[email protected]

* www.illinois.edu/goto/drivinghabits
** www.illinois.edu/goto/co2

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On
Behalf Of tomw
Sent: Monday, December 20, 2010 8:45 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [EVDL] NPR story on electric vehicle charging program.


"It's a huge engineering and logistical problem for a situation that
will
rarely be needed." It can't be both can it? If rarely needed, then
there
wouldn't be a large fluctuation in local demand, just a small minority
making use of this option. The analogy of a car with full gas tank each
morning is not so good since that would give you about 300-400 mile
range,
whereas an ev with full pack would be 100 miles or less typically
(assuming
most don't purchase Teslas). I think that the majority could easily get
by
with 100 mile range for the great majority of days of the year, but
there
are some, particularly in more rural states like Montana or Wyoming, who
regularly travel much further. But again, a partial solution is better
than
none. More ev's where they can be used means more gas for Montanans as
supply dwindles.

Myself, I see BP filling only a niche role at best, and I expect that
progress in battery technology may make them obsolete within the next 15
years or so (that is for volume production, not demonstration of
feasibility).
-- 
View this message in context:
http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/NPR-story-o
n-electric-vehicle-charging-program-tp3085669p3095611.html
Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at
Nabble.com.

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----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

"It's actually a very good analogy, especially if you work to setup charging
stations in your area where you commute"
An ICE vehicle with 300-400 mile range is essentially the same as an ev with
full charge and stopping at charging stations? I agree that many people
could do fine with what you describe, but I don't think the two are
equivalent.

Actually I don't think having a standard size and interface battery pack
would hamper variety of vehicle design that greatly. Several models usually
share the same chassis. I could also see auto manufacturers offering
swappable packs as an option. Gives them a way to make a bit more money and
satisfy customers who want that option. I am fairly confident if swappable
packs do seriously inhibit product differentiation the manufacturers won't
use it.
-- 
View this message in context: http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/NPR-story-on-electric-vehicle-charging-program-tp3085669p3095820.html
Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

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----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Well that's kind of the problem as I see it. If it's not used enough to
build the infrastructure that would be needed, and if there isn't the demand
to build swappable packs in the first place, why bother? Million dollar
swap stations sitting around barely utilized doesn't seem like a workable
concept. It's almost a chicken and egg thing. Even if the stations are
built and the swappable packs are built into vehicles and some people use
them, a swap station would need to be highly overstocked just in case there
was a rush on that location for some reason, or they'd need to bring packs
in from elsewhere. If the whole system is not utilized much, as I suspect,
there will be a lot of extra packs sitting around that had to be built and
paid for by someone. Since the BP model want's to charge you extra for it's
services, all the customers get to pay the added expense of underutilized
swap stations and extra packs.
I think the gas tank analogy is accurate for exactly the reasons you
mention, most people don't drive more than 40 miles each day so a 100 mile
pack takes care of that. Additionally most early adopters will have at
least one other vehicle that's an ICE, and I expect to see fast charge
stations and 150-200 mile packs in 2-3 years, soon enough that all the
effort of BP swapping makes little sense. Swapping is trying to make EV's
into long range vehicles long before that's necessary, and making them more
expensive in the process if they catch on. Nissan could have made the LEAF
compatible with BP swapping but chose not to.




> tomw wrote:
> >
> > "It's a huge engineering and logistical problem for a situation that will
> > rarely be needed." It can't be both can it? If rarely needed, then there
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

It also has to add expense to building the vehicle. A pack that's bolted
into a vehicle with solid connections that might take a half hour to remove
for servicing is much easier to build than a pack that can quickly make and
break high power connections time and time again. To offer swappable packs
as an option that capability has to be built into the platform from the
beginning, which would be a waste for the vehicles that don't use it.
My analogy is not to suggest that you get the same one time range from an
overnight charge of course, but that in real world usage the 300-400 mile
range of an ICE is rarely used. There is probably no reason to have much
more than a 200 mile range gas tank at this point other than to reduce trips
to the gas station. Once we have around 200 mile packs and some reasonably
fast charge stations, say 30 minutes or less, the real world range
differences between ICE's and EV's becomes even smaller.



> tomw wrote:
> >
> > "It's actually a very good analogy, especially if you work to setup
> > charging stations in your area where you commute"
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> On 19 Dec 2010 at 17:59, Lee Hart wrote:
> 
> > The ideal situation to me would be if companies made batteries with
> > different chemistries or other advancements, but put them in exactly the same
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> I don't think the two are equivalent.

Analogies are not equivalent: by definition an analogy is a similarity
between like features of two things: a heart is like a pump, but it is
not equivalent -- just similar in some functionalities and situations,
e.g. "I <heart> you" and "I <pump> you" mean two different things ;-)

This focus on solving long-distance transit with electric vehicles and
the concentration on it must go 100 miles (X PRIZE alternative class),
then it must go 200 miles (X PRIZE, mainstream class) and now this
300-400 miles I have trouble understanding: What problem it is
attempting to solve??? Whether you drive and promote EVs for
environmental, national security or some other reasons, 80% of the US
daily drivers could be driving a 40-60 mile range EV for all of our
daily trips IF there were ample opportunity charging (a vehicle spends
most of it's time just sitting there -- so during the day it *should* be
plugged in and levelizing the grid!)

Continuing to focus on 300-400 miles per charge to match a sedan's gas
tank (not all ICE's get 300 Mi/Tank) goes down the utility vehicle path:
one vehicle to do everything. Which means it doesn't do anything
particularly well: the battery weight alone to go 300-400 miles per
charge makes it a horribly inefficient local commuter vehicle (majority
of trips). To have a battery pack "just sitting around" on a range
extender trailer also doesn't make much sense unless you've got solar
dumping into it, but being grid-tied makes a LOT more economic sense,
rapid charging requires significant investment in infrastructure)...

Define what your goals are to figure out what problem you're willing to
spend your time (your most valuable resource, as it's irreplaceable)
trying to solve: is your goal to drive an EV *everywhere* or is your
goal to get off foreign oil (national security) and the billion dollars
A DAY we spend on foreign oil -- if so that's a personal reduction and
encouraging others to reduce their oil usage by a bit over 2/3rds, or is
your goal to get off greenhouse gas/smog producing dead dino fuels? If
so that can be done (not as easily) with vegetable oil and a diesel.
Pricey (in either time or money)? Yup -- but doable. Or some other
motivation. 

My goal is a combination both of the above, but my primary goal is to
have fun and enjoy life ;-) Wasting time making a mess trying to make
my own biodiesel or filtering WVO is not something that interests me to
take a leadership position in (I would help). Which means for now I'm
ok driving an ICE on long distance trips (Prius) and a coal/nuke powered
EV locally while I lobby and push for free public 120/15A plug-in
vehicle park&charge stations, an increase in local wind and solar power,
and an increase in economic trains in the Midwest (we go to Chicago A
LOT, and the 2.5 hour trip for a family of 4 is *much* cheaper to drive
it than take the train, even though there are ample vehicles for us to
drive once we're up at my in-laws). It's not that I'm against high
speed rail -- I'm against high speed rail that costs more per ticket
than existing rail. Like charging stations, more/cheap/everywhere is
better. Speed is relatively unimportant (I'll find something
constructive to do with my time).

The 50%/25mi-80%/50mi is an easily obtainable goal for electrics and
will have a huge impact on the environment, national security AND the
economy. Plus it's so much damn fun never needing to go to a gas
station. So yes, given the constraints of what the 80% need daily, EV's
and ICE aren't equivalent -- the EV's are much more fun!

Fo' shizzle my nizzle:
Don't sell the steak. 
Sell the sizzle. 

[email protected]

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On
Behalf Of tomw
Sent: Monday, December 20, 2010 10:48 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [EVDL] NPR story on electric vehicle charging program.


"It's actually a very good analogy, especially if you work to setup
charging
stations in your area where you commute"
An ICE vehicle with 300-400 mile range is essentially the same as an ev
with
full charge and stopping at charging stations? I agree that many people
could do fine with what you describe, but I don't think the two are
equivalent.

Actually I don't think having a standard size and interface battery pack
would hamper variety of vehicle design that greatly. Several models
usually
share the same chassis. I could also see auto manufacturers offering
swappable packs as an option. Gives them a way to make a bit more money
and
satisfy customers who want that option. I am fairly confident if
swappable
packs do seriously inhibit product differentiation the manufacturers
won't
use it.
-- 
View this message in context:
http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/NPR-story-o
n-electric-vehicle-charging-program-tp3085669p3095820.html
Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at
Nabble.com.

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----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Lee,
As always I find myself agreeing with you, BP is seeking other peoples
money. He is likely paying himself well to promote the "SWAP" concept. He
has also stated that the "BP" swap is not as likely at home or at work
instead he only wants to cover highways between cities, where I suggest dump
quick charging without modification of the EV is just as viable an
alternative. At this point in time, we are at the "Cusp" of a change in Gas
versus EV as personal vehicles. Everyone agrees a commuter within 20 miles
from work to home would benefit from an EV and those who drive hundreds of
miles each day would probably not benefit as much. I cannot speak for
everyone, but most people do not commute to work in a 30 ft. long motorhome,
so why should they expect a commuter vehicle to be driven across the USA
2,000 miles every summer. If they cannot afford both than which one should
they own? Ten years I drove a 30 ft. motorhome to work 65 miles daily for a
week. then I found a job closer to home and put the motorhome into storage
where it belonged as it is not a reasonable commuter vehicle. Do you base
your choice of commuter vehicle upon your vacation week? Is that
"Reasonable?" Or should you base your choice on the trip to work?
EVs are still waiting for a better Battery. One that is quick to
charge. One that is not too heavy. One that holds a lot of energy. Is this
likely in the near future? We have been waiting 120 years ! <{ ;<()
Is compressed air a better energy storage choice? [ 8^))
Perhaps I should switch to the Alcohol as a Fuel, List... It's
working in Brazil ? The Algi to pond scum to Alcohol experiments show
promise. [ 8^|)
Regards,
Dennis Miles
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


> Lee Hart <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> > On 12/20/2010 1:29 PM, AMPhibian wrote:
> > > It also has to add expense to building the vehicle. A pack that's bolted
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> On 20 Dec 2010 at 16:57, Dennis Miles wrote:
> 
> > I cannot speak for everyone, but most people do not commute to work in
> > a 30 ft. long motorhome, so why should they expect a commuter vehicle
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Sure, it's great with my cordless tools too. I assume most forklift packs
are relatively low voltage, low current, and much smaller than auto packs
would be, and they live in a controlled environment doing the same thing all
the time. They also probably spend more time moving than passenger vehicles
do so have less opportunity to charge. I'm not saying that auto sized packs
can't be designed to swap, BP has demonstrated it, I'm just saying that for
personal transportation I'm not convinced it's worth the added expense to do
so.




> Lee Hart wrote:
> >
> > On 12/20/2010 1:29 PM, AMPhibian wrote:
> >> It also has to add expense to building the vehicle. A pack that's bolted
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Do we need a better battery? We already have batteries that can quick
charge, we already have batteries that could give us 300 miles in the right
platform, they just cost too much. I'm sure we'll get better batteries but
cheaper batteries at today's performance levels would do the job. We also
need the right vehicle, lightweight and aerodynamic. We already know what
it looks like, the Solectria Sunrise. At some point a car company might
realize that instead of a more expensive and larger battery a more efficient
platform makes more sense.




> Dennis Miles wrote:
> >
> >
> > EVs are still waiting for a better Battery. One that is quick to
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Higher fuel prices may change those expectations, but right now there isn't
much penalty for gross inefficiency. 
You can rent a pickup truck from Uhaul for 20 dollars a day.




> EVDL Administrator wrote:
> >
> >
> > Such folks are convinced that they need big trucks with big ICEs to
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

"*Has* BP actually done it? So far all I've seen is talk."
According to this article they have demonstrated it in taxis in Tokyo:
http://www.evworld.com/news.cfm?newsid=24676
Seems like a good application for it.
-- 
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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> "*Has* BP actually done it? So far all I've seen is talk."



> tomw wrote:
> > According to this article they have demonstrated it in taxis in Tokyo:
> > http://www.evworld.com/news.cfm?newsid=24676
> > Seems like a good application for it.
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Here's a video of the swap. 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OHHvjsFm_88
Obviously for this to work they either have to find an auto maker to design
at least one production vehicle with swap capability built in, or find a
company that will convert existing vehicles to swap capability.




> Lee Hart wrote:
> >
> >> "*Has* BP actually done it? So far all I've seen is talk."
> >
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=PmPTpVY6RZM#t=11s
Above link is a Shai Agassi interview on CBC the hour, in the first minutes
he states; Renault and Nissan are committed to building nine models with the
BP battery swap system built in. he further points out that a standard
"Plug-In" is also included as well the swappable system and swapping is the
secondary system for trips and if needed , but primary recharging everyday
is the "Plug-In" technology mostly at home at night and at work and another
video shows a recharging outlet placed in a parking garage for "Plug-In"
charging in Israel!
Regards,
Dennis Miles
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


> AMPhibian <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> >
> > Here's a video of the swap.
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

That's an older video and I'm pretty sure Nissan has backed out of the BP
system since then. Certainly the LEAF is not built with a swappable pack.



> Dennis Miles wrote:
> >
> > http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=PmPTpVY6RZM#t=11s
> > Above link is a Shai Agassi interview on CBC the hour, in the first
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Continuing to focus on 300-400 miles per charge to match a sedan's gas
> tank (not all ICE's get 300 Mi/Tank) goes down the utility vehicle path:
> one vehicle to do everything. Which means it doesn't do anything
> particularly well: the battery weight alone to go 300-400 miles per
> charge makes it a horribly inefficient local commuter vehicle (majority
> of trips). To have a battery pack "just sitting around" on a range
> extender trailer also doesn't make much sense unless you've got solar
> dumping into it, but being grid-tied makes a LOT more economic sense,
> rapid charging requires significant investment in infrastructure)...

This brings up another potential advantage to the modularized pack I
mentioned previously.
For normal around town driving you only load up a few modules. If you
need to make a longer trip, you stop at a service station and add some
more.

Though for really long trips, it would make more sense if we could get the
rail system involved. Trains as just about the most efficient way to move
large objects over distance.
Perhaps one day we will have trains where you can just drive your EV into
a container (sort of like a ferry), hook it up to charge, and then go sit
in the club car while the miles go by. When you get to your destination
you drive the car off the train with a fully charged pack.

Ok it's a bit of a pipe dream, but it's doable.

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Most people who are likely to need to swap their packs for a long trip 
will pre-plan their that trip at least 24 hours or more beforehand. 
Therefore they can reserve their pack(s) and this gives BeP a chance 
to organize it for them and I guess if this means shipping a pack from 
a to b then so be it. The cost of the service will have to suit. It 
might be 5 times the price of the power in the pack. But remember - 
for 90% of people, this sort of malarkey will only be necessary for 
less than 1% of their trips.

But tomw is right, 10 - 20 years from now it'll all be academic as 
we'll have packs with 5 times the range at half the size and weight 
that can recharge quicker than we can re-fuel today.

Regards, Martin Winlow
Herts, UK
http://www.evalbum.com/2092
www.winlow.co.uk



> AMPhibian wrote:
> 
> >
> > Well that's kind of the problem as I see it. If it's not used
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Lee Hart wrote:
> >
> >
> >> But tomw is right, 10 - 20 years from now it'll all be academic as
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> If all the money and effort spent on that colossal white elephant that 
> is the hydrogen fuel cell had been spent on battery development 
> instead, we'd have 400 mile range from a battery the size of a 
> suitcase by now - probably more.
> 
> Regards, Martin Winlow


What a silly statement. I don't necessarily disagree with your sentiments about wasting money on hydrogen fuel cells, but can you quantify for me as a percentage how much the battery research and development effort would have increased if the moneys involved had been redistributed according to your desires? Also, are you saying that no matter what the technical challenge may be, more money will always win the day? If that is the case, let's take all the money currently being wasted on both hydrogen fuel cells and battery R&D and spend them on the real solutions, the Flux Capacitor and/or the Mr. Fusion 
damon 
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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

I liked the music, but I'm a bit of a metal head. The second video with the
automated setup might be where BP got some if it's technology, though there
was some operator involvement in the process, unlike BP.



> Lee Hart wrote:
> >
> > Here is a video on changing a typical forklift battery (sorry about the
> > music):
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Lee Hart wrote:
> >> The actual rate of improvement has historically only been a few
> >> percent a year.
> 
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Perhaps one day we will have trains where you can just drive your EV
into
> a container (sort of like a ferry), hook it up to charge, and then go
sit
> in the club car while the miles go by. When you get to your
destination
> you drive the car off the train with a fully charged pack.
> 
> Ok it's a bit of a pipe dream, but it's doable.

And it's been/is being done: Amtrak does this on the East Coast of the
US for Sno-Birds to take their cars with them to overwinter in Florida
-- the Auto Train:

http://www.amtrak.com/servlet/ContentServer?c=AM_Route_C&pagename=am%2FL
ayout&cid=1241245666320

Bicyclists can do this on Amtrak for an extra $10 charge (cardboard
bicycle box required). I've always thought the perfect solution (and to
get around the $10 fee/bike box) was to get a folding electric bicycle,
and charge it up on the laptop outlets on the 2-hour ride to Chicago.
But fortunately/unfortunately I do not have the justification/excuse to
test this as I don't have job that requires this, and almost all of our
trips (many!) from C-U to Chicago are 4+ (Family). Oh yes, and the tix
prices are too high. The one time I took the train to Chicago (wife was
already there) with my 5 year old it was *the* most gloriously
low-stress & peaceful and most enjoyable mode of travel -- 2.5 hours of
good quality time with my daughter walking about and hanging out in the
club car. Better than via bus (3-4hrs), car (2hrs) or a plane (1/2 hr).
If we could've just put the Twike on the train, that'd've been perfect
as nobody would've needed to pick us up at the station!

The problem with the train -- especially in big cities is something the
transit professionals call "mode-shifting" Getting from point A to
point B isn't the problem -- you take the train. But getting
economically AND conveniently TO point A from your home and FROM point B
to your final destination once you get there... electric-only local
transit has the advantage that it is significantly cleaner to transport
on long-haul modes of transit. Trains of course being electric vehicles
-- they're just powered by diesel generators rather than the grid/PV,
but now they're adding in batteries for regen braking and urban use.


http://inhabitat.com/transportation-tuesday-ge-evolution-hybrid/ge-evolu
tion-hybrid-train-hybrid-battery-diesel-general-electric-ge-salt-ecomagi
nation/

[email protected]

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

I think around a year and a half ago or so we saw 100ah LiFePO4 cells from
SkyEnergy/CALB in the same case size and weight as previous 90ah cells,
along with a large price drop. I believe they are going to be announcing
new cells fairly soon, I assume they will be better as well. Then there are
the improvements in LiCo commodity cells from 2.4ah to 3.2ah and higher,
with 4ah supposedly on the way. Haven't Kokam's also improved in the last
year?



> Lee Hart wrote:
> >
> >
> 
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> damon henry wrote:
> 
> >
> >> If all the money and effort spent on that colossal white elephant
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Matthew wrote:
> 
> >> Perhaps one day we will have trains where you can just drive your EV
> > into
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

I think an argument could be made that looking at the recent progress in
batteries with limited funding compared to the lack of progress in HFCV's
with large amounts of funding we'd probably be further along if the money
had gone to battery research. How much further is impossible to tell. 


> damon henry wrote:
> >
> >
> >> If all the money and effort spent on that colossal white elephant that
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> On 21 Dec 2010 at 10:07, Martin WINLOW wrote:
> 
> > 10 - 20 years from now it'll all be academic as we'll have packs with
> > 5 times the range at half the size and weight that can recharge
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Of course, one might also point out that energy-dense storage
delivering 500 
> mile range, 5 minute "recharging," and weight of about 100lb already
exists 
> today. It's called gasoline. ;-)

Or Canada Oil aka Canola Oil aka rapeseed oil/vegetable oil. You just
buy it from the grocery store instead of the gas station -- but it's
damn expensive. BUT B100/VO is more environmentally friendly than a
grid-charged EV (based on CO2*). Waste/Recycled/Repurposed veggie oil
is cheaper if you do not value your time (hobby). Given that I consider
a waste of human time as the most unsustainable activity... and I don't
enjoy making messes/chemistry (if you find making biodiesel enjoyable,
then it is no longer an unsustainable activity -- FUN is a very
sustainable activity ;-)

Given that, from a practicality angle, an EV with a removable
biodiesel/Veggie Oil generator always made more sense to me than
dragging around an excess of either heavy (lead) or $$$ (Li-Ion) battery
packs or a trailer -- when not in use the generator needs much less
maintenance and storage room than a big or expensive battery pack. And
it can flex fuel with the more widely-available dino-diesel when
necessary. But for local transit, an EV is far less messy than trying
to 'roll your own' B100/Veggie Oil. And an EV fueled on renewable
electricity stomps a veggie burner. So pushing for more renewable on
the grid to feed my EV is an activity (yes, I show up at city council
meetings though they're long, boring and listening to the FUD
surrounding wind energy is quite depressing)... so it could easily be
argued say that is also a waste of time (unsustainable activity)...

Initially goal has always been driven primarily by the 2/3rd's argument
(amount of foreign oil we spend US$1billion a day on) not a 100% EV,
all-the-time, no excuses... knowing that if I tell someone that it's ok
to keep their old car "as backup" that:

a) I won't come across as quite a zealot
b) 90% of the time their "backup" ICE will be relegated to
behind the garage.

Now my primary goal has switched somewhat -- it's to promote good clean
fun, with the national security/economy and enviro issues taking a
backseat... or shelf, in my Twike's case ;-)

[email protected]

* www.illinois.edu/goto/co2

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Certainly at some point battery density will reach the point that reasonable
range is possible, but I don't think we need 5 times the range at half the
size and weight. There are no technical hurdles preventing a 250-300 mile
EV right now, just monetary ones. If the price of a suitcase sized 50kwh
pack is $30K it still won't help us. We know what the Sunrise did in 1996
with 26kwh of NiMH, it could do even more with the same kwh of lithium but
really it could carry more kwh of lithium. Since aero is more important
than weight at sustained speed distance driving a manufacturer could make a
close approximation without having to switch to the composite construction
method used with the Sunrise. I don't think any of the EV's in production
or slated for production are even close to being optimized to get the most
range from their packs, which is rather amazing considering pack costs. The
LEAF is basically a converted Versa I think and with a cd of .29 there is a
lot of room for improvement. There is also room in it for more batteries if
they were cheaper.



> EVDL Administrator wrote:
> >
> > On 21 Dec 2010 at 10:07, Martin WINLOW wrote:
> >
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

"I don't think any of the EV's in production or slated for production are
even close to being optimized to get the most range from their packs, which
is rather amazing considering pack costs." 

I don't think it is amazing considering the cost savings on tooling, price
negotiating power with larger volume purchases, and possible need for an
entirely separate production line. I thought Toyota was smart when they
introduced the Prius using the Echo chassis/body. They leveraged the lower
cost of parts due to the larger volume of combined Echo and Prius sales,
avoided some extra tooling costs, and could utilize much of the same
production line. This kept the Prius price considerably lower than it would
have been had it been all new. It also significantly reduced development
time. Nissan did similar with the Leaf/Versa.
-- 
View this message in context: http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/NPR-story-on-electric-vehicle-charging-program-tp3085669p3161562.html
Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

You're probably correct, it's too early in the development cycle to do a
radical redesign for a ground up EV. I do wish Toyota did a full BEV Prius
instead of another RAV4EV, could have been a very efficient EV. Anyone ever
do a full Prius conversion?




> tomw wrote:
> >
> > "I don't think any of the EV's in production or slated for production are
> > even close to being optimized to get the most range from their packs,
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Matthew wrote:
> 
> > Getting from point A to point B isn't the problem -- you take the
> > train. But getting economically AND conveniently TO point A from your
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

David,

Sorry but it is way toooo logical and practical
to make any sense to run this as a business.
Besides, it would kill taxi driver's jobs, so
I bet the Unions won't allow it even if a
business tries to set it up.
I'll stop now before it gets worse ;-)

Blessed Christmas and Happy New Year to you all,

Cor van de Water
Director HW & Systems Architecture Group
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
Email: [email protected] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [email protected]
Tel: +1 408 383 7626 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Tel: +91 (040)23117400 x203 XoIP: +31877841130

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On
Behalf Of EVDL Administrator
Sent: Saturday, December 25, 2010 5:10 AM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] NPR story on electric vehicle charging program.



> Matthew wrote:
> 
> > Getting from point A to point B isn't the problem -- you take the
> > train. But getting economically AND conveniently TO point A from your
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Matthew wrote:
> > Getting from point A to point B isn't the problem -- you take the
> > train. But getting economically AND conveniently TO point A from your
> > home and FROM point B to your final destination once you get there...
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

It also helps that Rick is a damn nice guy.

One of the nicest things though about traveling long distances by train is to be able to get up, walk around and socialize...
Or conversely, put in your ear buds, crack open a book and stretch out and read...

There's nothing in the car-mutter train car idea that necessarily prevents this.

Rick's biggest hurdle to mass production will be that damned 4th wheel... once you put 4 wheels on the road, the rules become dramatically different and mandatory "safety" equipment legislation becomes very difficult to overcome. And you're now playing in the "big boy's" sandbox. I truly hope that I am wrong, but anyone that knows the history of the Tucker...

I love the Tango, but more importantly if I were buying an electric vehicle Rick is a guy I trust. That's saying something in this industry, and I got to hang out and get to know a lot of the leaders in the high MPGe at the X PRIZE. Rick was always open and honest -- he detailed to us the difficulties of purchasing automotive glass from US suppliers, compared to the Chinese manufacturers that were not only a tenth of the per-unit production cost (with negligible setup costs) but actively courting his business (the US companies were dismissive unless you were a volume customer).

[email protected]

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] on behalf of Lee Hart
Sent: Sat 12/25/2010 11:25 AM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] NPR story on electric vehicle charging program.



> Matthew wrote:
> > Getting from point A to point B isn't the problem -- you take the
> > train. But getting economically AND conveniently TO point A from your
> > home and FROM point B to your final destination once you get there...
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Doesn't a Tango cost as much as a Tesla Roadster? If so it's not exactly
practical transportation for the masses.


Matt Childress wrote:
> 
> It also helps that Rick is a damn nice guy.
> 
> One of the nicest things though about traveling long distances by train is
> to be able to get up, walk around and socialize...
> Or conversely, put in your ear buds, crack open a book and stretch out and
> read...
> 
> There's nothing in the car-mutter train car idea that necessarily prevents
> this.
> 
> Rick's biggest hurdle to mass production will be that damned 4th wheel...
> once you put 4 wheels on the road, the rules become dramatically different
> and mandatory "safety" equipment legislation becomes very difficult to
> overcome. And you're now playing in the "big boy's" sandbox. I truly
> hope that I am wrong, but anyone that knows the history of the Tucker...
> 
> I love the Tango, but more importantly if I were buying an electric
> vehicle Rick is a guy I trust. That's saying something in this industry,
> and I got to hang out and get to know a lot of the leaders in the high
> MPGe at the X PRIZE. Rick was always open and honest -- he detailed to us
> the difficulties of purchasing automotive glass from US suppliers,
> compared to the Chinese manufacturers that were not only a tenth of the
> per-unit production cost (with negligible setup costs) but actively
> courting his business (the US companies were dismissive unless you were a
> volume customer).
> 
> [email protected]
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [email protected] on behalf of Lee Hart
> Sent: Sat 12/25/2010 11:25 AM
> To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] NPR story on electric vehicle charging program.
> 
>


> Matthew wrote:
> >> Getting from point A to point B isn't the problem -- you take the
> >> train. But getting economically AND conveniently TO point A from your
> >> home and FROM point B to your final destination once you get there...
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Matt Childress wrote:
> 
> > > It also helps that Rick is a damn nice guy.
> I agree completely. Rick is one of the nicest guys I know!
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Yes, the T-600 Tango is in the same monetary ballpark as the Tesla --
more expensive depending on battery pack selection (From:
http://commutercars.com/TangoT600.pdf -- Retail price $108,000.): The
unfortunate thing is that in order to get economy of scale, you first
must have scale. To get scale you have to have a wad of cash backing
you -- especially in the 4-wheels-and-more market. The T600 is a kit
car with final assembly (ie, the manufacturer of record) being done by
the customer. There's more on the PDF.

There's a difference between "practical" and "affordable" -- if you live
in an area with congested traffic, Rick's vehicle is extremely practical
if your time has value (due to lane-splitting). While I come from a
state where lane splitting has not been tested legally, this summer I
experienced the joy of lane-splitting in Washington DC while driving the
Twike/TW4XP down embassy row and DuPont Circle:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TIn6EDuM26I&feature=player_embedded --
the outer traffic lane of a 4-lane street (2-lanes each direction) is
used for parking yet we were passing traffic stalled zipping merrily
along in the empty half-lane! FUN!

However for the masses the T600 is not affordable (up-front costs... it
may be if you include things like city parking, etc). It isn't meant to
be -- the T200 is Rick's slated mass production design.

While I've not been watching the industry as long as some (and my
particular passion is for high-efficiency lightweight/small-sized
micro-vehicles) -- I've seen the damage that the poor-quality Chinese
eBikes/scooters, the financial/production issues surrounding the Corbin
Sparrow, the lack of longevity of the GEM's and Zebra's have done to the
public's confidence in this particular vehicle class, though it is an
extremely fun and practical way to get around. 

Rick -- like his vehicles -- are in a far superior class.

[email protected]

ps. I should state I have no involvement/investment with
CommuterCars/Rick/Tango... I've just been following him on the Internet
and got to hang out with him quite a bit at Michigan International
during the X PRIZE.

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On
Behalf Of AMPhibian
Sent: Monday, December 27, 2010 7:02 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [EVDL] NPR story on electric vehicle charging program.


Doesn't a Tango cost as much as a Tesla Roadster? If so it's not
exactly
practical transportation for the masses.


Matt Childress wrote:
> 
> It also helps that Rick is a damn nice guy.
> 
> One of the nicest things though about traveling long distances by
train is
> to be able to get up, walk around and socialize...
> Or conversely, put in your ear buds, crack open a book and stretch out
and
> read...
> 
> There's nothing in the car-mutter train car idea that necessarily
prevents
> this.
> 
> Rick's biggest hurdle to mass production will be that damned 4th
wheel...
> once you put 4 wheels on the road, the rules become dramatically
different
> and mandatory "safety" equipment legislation becomes very difficult to
> overcome. And you're now playing in the "big boy's" sandbox. I truly
> hope that I am wrong, but anyone that knows the history of the
Tucker...
> 
> I love the Tango, but more importantly if I were buying an electric
> vehicle Rick is a guy I trust. That's saying something in this
industry,
> and I got to hang out and get to know a lot of the leaders in the high
> MPGe at the X PRIZE. Rick was always open and honest -- he detailed
to us
> the difficulties of purchasing automotive glass from US suppliers,
> compared to the Chinese manufacturers that were not only a tenth of
the
> per-unit production cost (with negligible setup costs) but actively
> courting his business (the US companies were dismissive unless you
were a
> volume customer).
> 
> [email protected]
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [email protected] on behalf of Lee Hart
> Sent: Sat 12/25/2010 11:25 AM
> To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] NPR story on electric vehicle charging program.
> 
>


> Matthew wrote:
> >> Getting from point A to point B isn't the problem -- you take the
> >> train. But getting economically AND conveniently TO point A from your
> >> home and FROM point B to your final destination once you get there...
> ...


----------

