# Re: [EVDL] small vehicle update



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] small vehicle update*

What is the sidekick? It sounds like some sort of bike -- not a suzuki
sidekick that I first though you were talking about.



> Bob Sisson <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> > I have TWO vehicles...
> >
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] small vehicle update*

http://www.inspectionsbybob.com/images/Sidekick.jpg

and the plans can be found at:

http://www.americanspeedster.com/side-kick.htm

And it made the news....

http://network.nationalpost.com/np/blogs/theampersand/archive/2008/06/04/a-c
arcycle-built-for-one.aspx

http://www.gazette.net/stories/09032008/potonew210536_32479.shtml



Bob Sisson
1993 Geo Metro Convertible Project
Gaithersburg MD

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] small vehicle update*



> Bob Sisson wrote:
> > This version actually has SOME steel in it... the bottom rails have a
> > chain link fence rail in them... this increases the capacity
> > greatly... and the weight overall...
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] small vehicle update*

I looked at building a couple of PVC bike-cars a while back as well... I got
a lot of pictures and started working on revamping to make my own design. 
1-1/4" PVC will accept 1" cast pipe as a reinforcement, but actually, just
the pipe alone seems fairly strong in short runs for non-weightbearing
portions of the frame. I was thinking 2-cycle ICE at the time, but electric
would be a lot more fun.

DaveP in Ohio
NEOEV Yahoo Group Administrator

[email protected]

'74 CitiCar
'80 Comuta-Car
'81 Comuta-Car
-- 
View this message in context: http://www.nabble.com/Circuit-Breaker-Question-tp25420409p25471635.html
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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] small vehicle update*



> DaveP in Ohio wrote:
> 
> >
> > I looked at building a couple of PVC bike-cars a while back as
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] small vehicle update*



> Roger Heuckeroth wrote:
> > > I looked at building a couple of PVC bike-cars a while back...
> 
> > For a lighter weight reinforcing method you could simply wrap
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] small vehicle update*



> Lee Hart wrote:
> > Roger Heuckeroth wrote:
> > > > I looked at building a couple of PVC bike-cars a while back...
> >
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] small vehicle update*

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Lee Hart" <[email protected]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, September 16, 2009 10:12 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] small vehicle update




> > Roger Heuckeroth wrote:
> >> > I looked at building a couple of PVC bike-cars a while back...
> >
> >> For a lighter weight reinforcing method you could simply wrap
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] small vehicle update*

> > once you have made a fiberglass tube, the plastic pipe inside
> > becomes redundant. Just use it as a form; slide it out once the
> > resin has cured.



> Steve Peterson wrote:
> > You have to watch out for buckling with thin wall tubes, however.
> > Leaving the pvc pipe inside may prevent that problem. If you make the
> > FG thick enough, then the buckling problem goes away.
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] small vehicle update*



> Lee Hart wrote:
> > > > once you have made a fiberglass tube, the plastic pipe inside
> > > > becomes redundant. Just use it as a form; slide it out once the
> > > > resin has cured.
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] small vehicle update*

Hi Lee and All,

Rather than doing all this much more simple
would be using a larger dia PVC pipe. PVC can be fairly
strong, stiff if use the right diameter. Thin 3-4" PVC sewer
pipe is cheap, light and fairly stiff, strong and you can
use less of it.
Or buy FG tubing and use it.
Even better, build it out of wood/epoxy.
Simple, light, cheap, strong easy and far better looking
finished clear.

Jerry Dycus
----- Original Message Follows -----
From: Lee Hart <[email protected]>
T


> >Roger Heuckeroth wrote:
> >> > I looked at building a couple of PVC bike-cars a while
> >back...
> >
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] small vehicle update*

Just watch out, PVC will get brittle with long exposure to UV (the
sun). Coat it with some composite or paint to protect it so it will
last a long time.

-Jon Glauser
http://jonglauser.blogspot.com
http://www.evalbum.com/555

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] small vehicle update*

Yup, same thing if you want to make your (vacuum) pressure reservoir out
of a section of PVC with end caps glued on. In the sun it will soon
become a grenade....

Be safe,
Cor.

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On
Behalf Of Jon Glauser
Sent: Wednesday, September 16, 2009 11:12 PM
To: [email protected]; Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] small vehicle update

Just watch out, PVC will get brittle with long exposure to UV (the sun).
Coat it with some composite or paint to protect it so it will last a
long time.

-Jon Glauser
http://jonglauser.blogspot.com
http://www.evalbum.com/555

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] small vehicle update*

There are *many* specialty-made, hand-made and factory-made
Bicycles of all sorts and varieties.
My impression is that if PVC of FG was a good material
to build a bicycle, if would be used a lot...
There is a reason why almost all bicycles are made from
Metal (a few carbon-fiber frames excepted).
We can re-invent the wheel or learn from those who have
done this before... And crashed it... And repaired it... And crashed
again... And trued the wheels again... And rolled over... And survived,
fixed it and were going again...
Of course you *may* never crash your PVC bike. 

Success tinkering,

Cor van de Water
Director HW & Systems Architecture Group Proxim Wireless
Corporation http://www.proxim.com
Email: [email protected] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [email protected]
Tel: +1 408 383 7626 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Tel: +91 (040)23117400 x203 XoIP: +31877841130

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On
Behalf Of Steve Peterson
Sent: Wednesday, September 16, 2009 7:37 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] small vehicle update



> Lee Hart wrote:
> > Roger Heuckeroth wrote:
> > > > I looked at building a couple of PVC bike-cars a while back...
> >
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] small vehicle update*



> Cor van de Water wrote:
> 
> > My impression is that if PVC of FG was a good material to
> > build a bicycle, if would be used a lot...
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] small vehicle update*



> Roger Stockton wrote:
> >
> > I think PVC is being used not because it is a "good" material to
> > build with, but because it is an *easy* material to build with.
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] small vehicle update*

which is stronger, PVC OR ABS. which will stand up to UV better?????
Louis in central BC
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Roger Stockton" <[email protected]>
To: "'Electric Vehicle Discussion List'" <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, September 16, 2009 12:39 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] small vehicle update




> > Cor van de Water wrote:
> >
> >> My impression is that if PVC of FG was a good material to
> >> build a bicycle, if would be used a lot...
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] small vehicle update*

People USED to build bicycles out lot lots of different materials...

Then they learned that if it was too soft... much of your energy was wasted
flexing the frame...

If it was too heavy...well that one is easy...

Bamboo, Wood, steel and Aluminum were all replaced with Carbon fiber and
other composites on the high end because they were stiff and light...

PVC actually is very strong, but as many mentioned it flexes so a lot of
energy is wasted...

PVC also deforms under heat...makes it good for some things, but you don't
want your vehicle to melt in the sun...

Lastly, because it is soft, it is hard to put "hard" parts into it without
having to put in extra collars, bushings or sleeves... I actually have that
issue with the sidekick as some of my bolts slowly move and push the plastic
out of their way...ie point loads don't do well without a metal insert...

Bob Sisson
1993 Geo Metro Convertible Project
Gaithersburg MD



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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] small vehicle update*

ABS has a bit higher impact resistance typically (depends upon the 
grade). Neither one of them should go unpainted outdoors.



> Louis Pelletier wrote:
> 
> > which is stronger, PVC OR ABS. which will stand up to UV better?????
> > Louis in central BC
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] small vehicle update*

We used PVC to build a Boy Scout Klondike Derby sled some years ago. It was
very heavy. It ended up in a dumpster about halfway through, after our 4
kids hooked up with 2 kids from another troop that had a better sled.

We built a wood one the next year, and are still using it.

It was easy to build with though.
Brett



> Roger Heuckeroth <[email protected]>wrote:
> 
> >
> > On Sep 16, 2009, at 3:39 PM, Roger Stockton wrote:
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] small vehicle update*



> jerryd wrote:
> > Rather than doing all this much more simple
> > would be using a larger dia PVC pipe. PVC can be fairly
> > strong, stiff if use the right diameter. Thin 3-4" PVC sewer
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] small vehicle update*



> Roger Stockton wrote:
> > I think PVC is being used not because it is a "good" material to build with, but because it is an *easy* material to build with... I'm quite intriqued by this idea since my 8 year-old son is eager to build a vehicle of some sort with me and while PVC may not be a particularly good structural material, it may be good enough and its use would allow him to get a lot more hands-on involvment in the project than if a welder and metal tubing were used...
> >
> Exactly so! Last year, my Sartell BEST class had a big box of scrap PVC
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] small vehicle update*

Atomic Zombie builds all of their vehicles out of mild-steel tubing and
channel. I started to build one of theirs, but my welding wasn't good
enough and it got HEAVY FAST...

http://www.atomiczombie.com/

I was going to build a LodeRunner to replace the SideKick...but just wasn't
going anywhere...and it still was going to be a 3-season bike...The Geo
Metro got more attention as I can drive it in the winter, the rain, at
night...etc...

Bob Sisson
1993 Geo Metro Convertible Project
Gaithersburg MD


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] small vehicle update*

----- Original Message -----
From: "Lee Hart"
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List"
Subject: Re: [EVDL] small vehicle update
Date: Wed, 16 Sep 2009 15:54:11 -0500




> jerryd wrote:
> > Rather than doing all this much more simple
> > would be using a larger dia PVC pipe. PVC can be fairly
> > strong, stiff if use the right diameter. Thin 3-4" PVC sewer
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] small vehicle update*

https://www.surpluscenter.com/item.asp?item=3D13-1436




> Dennis Miles <[email protected]> wrote:
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Lee Hart"
> > To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List"
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] small vehicle update*

Maybe it depends on the wall thickness of the PVC pipe - Sched. 40 should be 
fairly stiff in the sizes over 1" at least, and very strong. Class 125, on 
the other hand is light, but inclined to crack if stressed.

Joseph H. Strubhar

Web: www.gremcoinc.com

E-mail: [email protected]


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Steve Peterson" <[email protected]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, September 16, 2009 9:32 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] small vehicle update


>


> Lee Hart wrote:
> >> > > once you have made a fiberglass tube, the plastic pipe inside
> >> > > becomes redundant. Just use it as a form; slide it out once the
> >> > > resin has cured.
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] small vehicle update*



> Dennis Miles wrote:
> > This has been an interesting thread. I have for some time now been
> > considering building several "Geriatric Scooters"... Any suggestions
> > welcomed, either directly to me or on list if it is good advice.
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] small vehicle update*



> Lee Hart wrote:
> 
> > Roger, I'd suggest getting your son a few pieces of PVC
> > tubing, a couple dozen fittings, a pipe cutter, and a roll of
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] small vehicle update*

At one point I was looking into making bike frames and you can just buy
filament wound tubes of all sizes. They are available for sailboat
masts, kayak oars etc.

google for it
http://www.cstcomposites.com/ go to their store.

2" dia 2mm wall 8 foot length is $500, ouch
1" dia 2mm wall 7 foot is only $125

these look like austrailian dollars which are very close to US dollars
right now.

The concept was to use roving and/or matt in molds at the joints for
each tube
http://www.sheldonbrown.com/rinard/framebuild.htm



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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] small vehicle update*

>
> ust watch out, PVC will get brittle with long exposure to UV (the
> sun). Coat it with some composite or paint to protect it so it will
> last a long time.
>
> -Jon Glauser
> http://jonglauser.blogspot.com
> http://www.evalbum.com/555

Very, Very good point.

We had 3" water lines on the roof to our cooling tower and there was one
set of pipes that was not painted.
When i went to remove the pipes years later, the unpainted schedule 40
pipes, shattered when I tried to cut them,
I was dropping the pipe off the roof onto a tarp in the parking lot so
we could throw it away and was dismayed when the unpainted pipe
shattered and I had to get the broom out. Removal just became hitting
them with hammer.

The painted pipe was as strong as new.

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] small vehicle update*

Yup, the UV changes the crystal structure of the surface in to a crack
initiating layer, and makes the entire thickness of the pipe brittle, even
though even though only the surface has been changed. I went to a training
seminar a few years ago from the PVC pipe association, and learned all kinds
of interesting things about it 

Z



> Jeff Shanab <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> > >
> > > ust watch out, PVC will get brittle with long exposure to UV (the
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] small vehicle update*

There are a lot of options for building bike frames, hey more experience
and history than any car maker.
The techniques even transfered over to race car chassis.

There is a guy in our cyling club that makes frames using a technique
called fillet brazing. It makes a beautiful frame and doesn't
re-crystalize the tubing at the joint.
I was trying to make an electric assisted tadpole trike. Prototype 1
sits in my garage, the steering came out great, the rear wheel taco'ed.
the side load from the frame flex :-( live and learn.

The problem I had was finding lugs for anything other than the typical
bike frame, but there was 1 company that did offer them.
I also found a shop here that will cast lugs very cheaply, send them the
wax and they have an automated line to cast them in chrome-moly.
Now with the advent of stereo-lithography, they probably can now go cad
to part.
The interesting part was they load them on a tree and spray with
porcaline like a paint gun, then bake out the wax and put in a box
backfilled with sand and send it down the casting line. The box is
dissassbled and the sand re-used and the porcaline is washed off with water.

For this reason I mention the way the Gossemer albatross was built.
They polished and waxed aluminum tubing and wrapped it in a double 45
with carbon fiber woven pre-preg tape.
The put in a vacum bag and put the whole thing into a carpet tube an
pumped hot air thru the tube.
They then gave it a bit of a twist and slid the aluminum mold out.

Now the interesing part, they needed novel geometries at the junction so
they machined aluminum lugs for the inside and stuck the tubes on then
wrapped in roving saturated in catylized resin. Once this was cured,
they poured acid inside to remove the aluminum. (BTW. aluminum cannot
stay in contact with carbon fiber, fiberglass ok)


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] small vehicle update*



> Jeff Shanab wrote:
> 
> > At one point I was looking into making bike frames and you can just
> > buy
> ...


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