# [EVDL] ZAP! Xebra EV using chinese DC motor



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

I have been communicating with Zi Bo BoShan aka Zi Bo Super motors about 
the specs of their motors and it's a bit of a dance to get anyhing 
really solid in terms of specs (not that non chinese motor makers are 
any better) but she told me that the Zap Xebra truck uses one of their 
DC motors. Although the Xebra looks goofy it is a vote of confidence 
that they use their motors.
but so far the power density of their motors doesn't seem to be as good 
as ADCs. I guess I could live with 50-100% overweight motor but it just 
seems wrong. the price is only 1/3 though
maybe it's just a matter of stating the specs differently. the 
insulation is only class F though. not much misunderstanding possible there.

more as it happens

Dan

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Ya get what ya PAY for!

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Dan Frederiksen" <[email protected]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, November 29, 2007 10:56 AM
Subject: [EVDL] ZAP! Xebra EV using chinese DC motor


>I have been communicating with Zi Bo BoShan aka Zi Bo Super motors about
> the specs of their motors and it's a bit of a dance to get anyhing
> really solid in terms of specs (not that non chinese motor makers are
> any better) but she told me that the Zap Xebra truck uses one of their
> DC motors. Although the Xebra looks goofy it is a vote of confidence
> that they use their motors.
> but so far the power density of their motors doesn't seem to be as good
> as ADCs. I guess I could live with 50-100% overweight motor but it just
> seems wrong. the price is only 1/3 though
> maybe it's just a matter of stating the specs differently. the
> insulation is only class F though. not much misunderstanding possible 
> there.
>
> more as it happens
>
> Dan
>
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> -- 
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> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> Version: 7.5.488 / Virus Database: 269.13.28/1023 - Release Date: 
> 9/22/2007 1:27 PM
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> 

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

that's ultimately bullshit though. so many items on the market now that 
were previosly much more expensive. china can do both good and cheap. 
doesn't mean they always will and it doesn't mean they always won't. 
there is a tendency that you get what you pay for but it's not a hard 
and fast rule. that's what the slow people scream when others sell for a 
third. I'm sure IBM screamed that in the 486 days when they thought 10k$ 
was reasonable for a pc. they learned differently soon enough though 
because you didn't get what you paid for.

Dan



> Bob Rice wrote:
> > Ya get what ya PAY for!
> >
> 
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Bob Rice" <[email protected]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, November 29, 2007 11:12 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] ZAP! Xebra EV using chinese DC motor


> Ya get what ya PAY for!

If you go to "Trains" on You Tube, see all the great runbys, crashes, 
derailments and train VS Auto/truck clips, watch all the cool vids of 
Chinese trains, mostly electric. SOMEBODY in China must be making decent 
motors to run those homemade, in China, electric lokies?Chinese Railways 
would demand decent motors? Find THEIR source, Where does China RR get their 
stuff from?They build thousands of loco's every year, good ones, as the 
clips show.I would imagine you could find a decent motor in China, but, 
counting shipping ,you won't come in much, if anywhere, below Warp's 
offerings?

training for fun.

Bob
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Dan Frederiksen" <[email protected]>
> To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
> Sent: Thursday, November 29, 2007 10:56 AM
> Subject: [EVDL] ZAP! Xebra EV using chinese DC motor
>
>
>>I have been communicating with Zi Bo BoShan aka Zi Bo Super motors about
>> the specs of their motors and it's a bit of a dance to get anyhing
>> really solid in terms of specs (not that non chinese motor makers are
>> any better) but she told me that the Zap Xebra truck uses one of their
>> DC motors. Although the Xebra looks goofy it is a vote of confidence
>> that they use their motors.
>> but so far the power density of their motors doesn't seem to be as good
>> as ADCs. I guess I could live with 50-100% overweight motor but it just
>> seems wrong. the price is only 1/3 though
>> maybe it's just a matter of stating the specs differently. the
>> insulation is only class F though. not much misunderstanding possible
>> there.
>>
>> more as it happens
>>
>> Dan
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> For subscription options, see
>> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>>
>>
>> -- 
>> Internal Virus Database is out-of-date.
>> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
>> Version: 7.5.488 / Virus Database: 269.13.28/1023 - Release Date:
>> 9/22/2007 1:27 PM
>>
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>
>
> -- 
> Internal Virus Database is out-of-date.
> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> Version: 7.5.488 / Virus Database: 269.13.28/1023 - Release Date: 
> 9/22/2007 1:27 PM
>
> 

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Bob Rice wrote:
> > If you go to "Trains" on You Tube, see all the great runbys, crashes,
> > derailments and train VS Auto/truck clips, watch all the cool vids of
> > Chinese trains, mostly electric. SOMEBODY in China must be making decent
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> and as for warp vs ADC, from this chart I'm not liking the warp motors:
> http://www.zev.dk/misc/motorchart.htm
> no guarantees for correct values and I don't have the current limits for
> the warp motors yet but if you look at the specific torque values the
> ADC is much higher so unless the warp can swallow much more current it's
> not nearly as good as ADC. I'd pick ADC. maybe someone knows some of the
> missing values? if you do let me know and I can fill it in to give the
> big picture.
>
> the power of a motor is the specific torque times max current times max
> spin rate (2PI Hz). these 3 parameters decide the motor.

Dan,

In a series-wound DC motor, "specific torque" isn't a constant. The
torque is proportional to current squared.

When you increase the current, the field strength increases. Also, the
current through the armature increases. Because the torque is
proportional to current times field and field is proportional to
current, torque is proportional to current squared.

However, back emf is also proportional to current and speed. This
means that the speed is proportional to voltage divided by current.

T=Kt*I^2
w=Kw*V/I

P=Tw=Kt*Kw*V*I

-Morgan LaMoore

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

wow that would be a significant error : ) and I see the reasoning but 
the assumption was based on data like this:
http://www.go-ev.com/images/WarP_8_Graph.jpg
where the current-torque correlation is more linear, certainly far from 
squared.

how do we explain that then?

Dan



> Morgan LaMoore wrote:
> > In a series-wound DC motor, "specific torque" isn't a constant. The
> > torque is proportional to current squared.
> >
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Morgan, please do not waste your time responding to someone who already 
knows more than you. You just end up feeding the Gerbils.

Roderick


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Morgan LaMoore" <[email protected]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, November 29, 2007 7:04 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] ZAP! Xebra EV using chinese DC motor


>> and as for warp vs ADC, from this chart I'm not liking the warp motors:
>> http://www.zev.dk/misc/motorchart.htm
>> no guarantees for correct values and I don't have the current limits for
>> the warp motors yet but if you look at the specific torque values the
>> ADC is much higher so unless the warp can swallow much more current it's
>> not nearly as good as ADC. I'd pick ADC. maybe someone knows some of the
>> missing values? if you do let me know and I can fill it in to give the
>> big picture.
>>
>> the power of a motor is the specific torque times max current times max
>> spin rate (2PI Hz). these 3 parameters decide the motor.
>
> Dan,
>
> In a series-wound DC motor, "specific torque" isn't a constant. The
> torque is proportional to current squared.
>
> When you increase the current, the field strength increases. Also, the
> current through the armature increases. Because the torque is
> proportional to current times field and field is proportional to
> current, torque is proportional to current squared.
>
> However, back emf is also proportional to current and speed. This
> means that the speed is proportional to voltage divided by current.
>
> T=Kt*I^2
> w=Kw*V/I
>
> P=Tw=Kt*Kw*V*I
>
> -Morgan LaMoore
>
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>
>
>
> -- 
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.16.10/1159 - Release Date: 
> 11/29/2007 11:10 AM
>
> 

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

why do you have to be a jackass Roderick?
I'm trying to piece it all together and if I make a mistake I'm a 
gerbil? or a troll? or whatever nitwit word you people come up with.

I'm more than a little sure that if you dig deep you can locate a rather 
significant mistake you've made. perhaps on TV.
now, the more you attack me irrationally as some jackasses do the more 
it's going to sting when I succeed at something because you were wrong 
to do so.
so please for fuck sake think a little when you get the stupid urge to 
heckle me

if you have a better motor chart I'd love to see it. in fact if ANYONE 
does please show me. no?

Dan




> Roderick Wilde wrote:
> > Morgan, please do not waste your time responding to someone who already
> > knows more than you. You just end up feeding the Gerbils.
> >
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Dan wrote:
> 
> > if you have a better motor chart I'd love to see it. in fact if ANYONE
> > does please show me.
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

I have no fixed requirements. I'm trying to get insight on the various 
available motors to choose the 'best' as a function of many parameters.
essentially low weight and high power and price playing into it as well. 
short of the chinese motors being viable my attention is focused on the 
ADC motors but I would like to make a more informed choice.
the weight is easy enough to find but how much power can they produce.. 
I would like a 60minute value and a 1minute value for all of them. 
(thermally limited of course)
the problem is not getting the motors, the issue is choosing the best

I could tell you which car it's for but that's really irrelevant in 
understanding the motors.

Dan




> Ryan Stotts wrote:
> > What kind of motor do you want? What do you want from it?
> >
> > What type of vehicle is being built and the requirements of it?
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Dan Frederiksen wrote:
> > wow that would be a significant error : ) and I see the reasoning but
> > the assumption was based on data like this:
> > http://www.go-ev.com/images/WarP_8_Graph.jpg
> ...


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