# Altairnano Nano Lithium Titanium Batteries



## Grant_NZ (May 28, 2008)

Hi everyone,

Thanks to Gav I now have the EV conversion bug hahaha 

So in doing some research I found out about these nano titanium batteries; does anyone know the price, availability and of course the advantages vs. disadvantages of these batteries? I know Phoenix motors are using them in their EV's and would like to in the near future use them in a project I am currently researching. 

This is their website for those interested - 

http://www.altairnano.com/markets_energy_systems.html

Very cool! 

The project I’m looking at doing would be to convert a Toyota Hilux Ute or similar, but I’m concerned as I would like to use the Ute as it was intended; to haul heavy loads. Would such a conversion be possible?

Thanks in advance


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## joseph3354 (Apr 2, 2008)

phoenix motorcars recently switched from altairnano to electrovaya as their battery supplier,i do not know the reason for the switch,need a little more research in that area.

edit after a quick jaunt around the net...it appears that phoenix will use electrovaya product in addition to and not instead of altairnano products.it seems electrovaya"s product is more energy dense while altairnano has faster charge rates.currently niether product is available to the average consumer.


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## Grant_NZ (May 28, 2008)

joseph3354 said:


> ...it appears that phoenix will use electrovaya product in addition to and not instead of altairnano products.it seems electrovaya"s product is more energy dense while altairnano has faster charge rates.currently niether product is available to the average consumer.


So I guess as an average consumer we are stuck with lithium until such times the technology becomes available... grrrr 
I guess lithium also started out that way in the beginning

Plus as a consumer you now have the option over more power or faster charging... hmmm


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## saab96 (Mar 19, 2008)

The AltairNanos are unobtainium. Altair has been unable to ramp up production and they are going through a restructuring. It's a pity because the technology sounded very appealing, especially their claims for ultra long lifecycles which would (in theory) make the cost per mile of the batteries very low.


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## sir (May 23, 2008)

How heavy would they be compaired to an ordinary lead acid or li-ion battery . I also have a question about battery packs & that is , is the ah rating all the batteries ah ratings like 10 x 100ah combined or if you have 10 100ah batteries is it still only 100ah combined .


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## joseph3354 (Apr 2, 2008)

the amp hour cappacity with the batteries in series would stay the same.if they are in parallel then capacity would add up.10 100ah 12v batteries in series would be 120v 100ah,in parallel 12v 1000ah.hope this helps.


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## sir (May 23, 2008)

Oh ok thanks joseph , so its basically the same as measuring capacitance .


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## Grant_NZ (May 28, 2008)

1000 ah - is that good?

I also seem to have stumbled upon the question that most EV enthusiasts have; which battery to use? 

Also with the battery supplying the wipers, lights etc, would attaching an alternator to charge those batteries be advantageous? would like to put a decent stereo in the finished vehicle


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## Jens Rekker (Oct 26, 2007)

Hi Grant

I know next to nothing about nano lithium titanium. But you asked about the usefulness of an EV Hilux ute conversion. As always, it depends how well you have matched the battery with the donor vehicle. I have seen a web site describing a battery pack switch from seal lead acid to lithium iron phosphate (Large Format Prismatic) battery pack for a 2000 Hilux ute in Oz. The additional range was not very significant (about 13 km), nor was the acceleration or gain in power efficiency. I suspect the lithium technology opens more opportunity for small, aero-dynamic, sporty EV conversions than they do for utes, although Pheonix SUVs could make a liar of me.

I have seen a lot of utes converted to lead acid. The utes have the space and the weight carrying capacity. The heavy loads you haul will sap your range and top speed, but they won't be impossible. Short city speed trips with impressive loads will be easy.

I have just converted an old Ford Courier 2WD flat deck to lead-acid DC electric power. It goes fine around town, which is what we built it for. It won't do much out of town work, especially since Dunedin is ringed with long steep hills that would restrict range and spike battery currents.

Be realistic about what a real EV conversion can give you. It all comes back to the battery technology and efficiency. Get the combination that at least partly fill your needs and you're on the way to aviable conversion.
Cheers
Jens


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Seems to me as if Altairnano is targeting power backup for generating stations more than EV's at this time. Very disappointing as they seemed to have a promising technology.


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## Grant_NZ (May 28, 2008)

Thanks to everyone for their replies, good wealth of info for a first timer but heaps of research yet to be done.... 

Ive decided on Lithium Ion for weight reasons. A lot of ute conversions Ive read about mention that the weight is uncomfortable to drive at top speed and taking into consideration I do about 70% daily motorway driving, this is an issue.

This conversion here has the stats I'm after - http://www.evalbum.com/37 - good top speed and good distance.

Only problem is the tray has been filled up with batteries, still want to use the tray so obviously in the chassis they go... now what motor should I get?? haha my brain hurts


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## Grant_NZ (May 28, 2008)

JRP3 said:


> Seems to me as if Altairnano is targeting power backup for generating stations more than EV's at this time. Very disappointing as they seemed to have a promising technology.


yes unfortunately I read that too... 

I think these companies make more money from military and commercial applications as the EV market is obviously not that big at the moment. I did read about a new battery thats supposed to be the holy grail of batteries, yet to be released to the domestic market, if at all - 

http://www.technologyreview.com/read_article.aspx?ch=specialsections&sc=batteries&id=18086&a=

Canadian EV company Zenn have secured the rights to manufacture EV's with this technology... hmmm should I buy a few of these, steal the batteries and sell whats left? haha


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

EESTOR batteries are even more of a fairy tail than Altairnano. At least some people have actually used the Altairnano NanoSafe batteries.


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## joseph3354 (Apr 2, 2008)

not so much a fairy tale,just locked up.lockheed martin has contracted with eestor for military applications.so no consumer availability there.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Well absolutely no one has admitted ever seeing one power anything.


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## joseph3354 (Apr 2, 2008)

you got a point there,don't think any one will see them for quite awhile yet,unless lockheed decides they're not going to work out for what they may have in mind.


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## Grant_NZ (May 28, 2008)

Grant_NZ said:


> Ive decided on Lithium Ion for weight reasons....



I just learned I'm looking at $2500US for each battery *plus* $500US per battery to cover the special electronics and charger. That doesn't include all the high tech parts that goes with them.
So if were to use 10 12v LiFePO4 batteries, Id be up for $30,000... hmmm back to the drawing board


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## joseph3354 (Apr 2, 2008)

check with matt on the thundersky batteries he was looking at,it was a lot less money.you would need 38 of them with a battery management system. that would give you your 120v pack as the batteries are only 3.2v each.

edit:zuhai sanchuan in china is offering a 336v 60ah pack for 12k (us) are you still looking at an ac system?


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## Grant_NZ (May 28, 2008)

I found a 12v 36ah LiFePO4 Battery on their website at $835AUS each.

If I want 1000 ah I'd need 28 batteries, does that sound right and is 1000ah the average?

Link is here -
http://www.ev-power.com.au/-Lithium-Ion-Batteries-for-Electric-.html

I haven't decided on AC or DC motor yet, still weighing up the odds..


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## joseph3354 (Apr 2, 2008)

joseph3354 said:


> the amp hour cappacity with the batteries in series would stay the same.if they are in parallel then capacity would add up.10 100ah 12v batteries in series would be 120v 100ah,in parallel 12v 1000ah.hope this helps.


i just made that post to explain how to add up amp hours for a battery pack.the average vehicle is only going to be able to haul enough batteries for a 200 to 400 amp hour pack.sorry for the confusion.


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## joseph3354 (Apr 2, 2008)

Grant_NZ said:


> Link is here -
> http://www.ev-power.com.au/-Lithium-Ion-Batteries-for-Electric-.html
> 
> I haven't decided on AC or DC motor yet, still weighing up the odds..


 if you are going to try to use those batteries,you mght want to contact the supplier and ask if they can be used in series connection.they have individual battery managment boards.i dont know if they can be used in series.


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## Grant_NZ (May 28, 2008)

joseph3354 said:


> check with matt on the thundersky batteries he was looking at,it was a lot less money.you would need 38 of them with a battery management system. that would give you your 120v pack as the batteries are only 3.2v each.
> 
> edit:zuhai sanchuan in china is offering a 336v 60ah pack for 12k (us) are you still looking at an ac system?


On the website they say - 
* can be connected in series for higher voltages up to 38.4V*

From what I understand, I can only wire them up in series up to 38.4 volts? Also would you have the web address for the 336v 60ah battery pack for 12k?

Thank you


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## joseph3354 (Apr 2, 2008)

the sales rep's name is anna.here's the email: [email protected]

website is here: http://www.chinabatterycenter.com/main.asp

wow,38 volts just isnt going to do anything fo you.guess those are strictly for bikes.


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## Mastiff (Jan 11, 2008)

Altairnano's Lithium Titanite batteries are essentially the holy-grail of battery technology.

Although I read an article back a while ago that essentially estimated the price of these batteries at $2.50 per watt-hour.

So even if they where commercially available they're completely out of reach from most people until they start mass-producing them.

Though if Altairnano starts selling enough of them the price will eventually come down and we might start seeing them in the consumer market.

Although ATM they're *Unobtainium *as someone else said.
Unless you steal a Phoenix Motorcars SUT.


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## Grant_NZ (May 28, 2008)

Awesome, thanks joseph3354. 

Are these the batteries you mentioned? - http://www.chinabatterycenter.com/product_vehicles.asp



I think your right Mastiff, it took 30 odd years for Lithium to become domestically available, based on todays demands we could half that. All the information is pointing to a huge reduction in Co2 gases by 2020 for most countries, which obviously points to a more sustainable and environmentally friendly mode of transportation.

Are we seeing the beginning of a new type of crime? EV's stolen for their batteries..? hmmm


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## saab96 (Mar 19, 2008)

Mastiff said:


> Although ATM they're *Unobtainium *as someone else said.
> Unless you steal a Phoenix Motorcars SUT.


The thing is, they are unobtainium to Phoenix as well, which is why they are now going with Electrovaya.

http://tyler.blogware.com/blog/_archives/2008/5/6/3677968.html

This really does not bode well for the future of Altair. They don't seem to be able to rise to the occasion now that there is some actual demand for their product. They are totally dropping the ball. They simply do not have forever to wait around on this. Even if they have the best tech, the industry will move ahead with the best technology that can scale TODAY. The same goes for Firefly.


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## joseph3354 (Apr 2, 2008)

Grant_NZ said:


> Awesome, thanks joseph3354.
> 
> Are these the batteries you mentioned? - http://www.chinabatterycenter.com/product_vehicles.asp


yes those are the ones.here's a photo of the battery pack i told you about. 336v 60 ah.


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## Grant_NZ (May 28, 2008)

joseph3354 said:


> yes those are the ones.here's a photo of the battery pack i told you about. 336v 60 ah.


Awesome, thanks.

I'm new to this but from what I gather this one pack produces 336 volts but one 12v lithium battery produces 3.2 volts. Does it mean this pack must contain 105 - 3.2v batteries??


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## joseph3354 (Apr 2, 2008)

yes you are correct.each cell is 3.2v 60ah connected in series to get 336v.


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## Grant_NZ (May 28, 2008)

Cool, thank you. 

Would you have the dimensions and weight of that pack? What motor would you recommend to take that voltage?


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## joseph3354 (Apr 2, 2008)

anna did not send the specs other than the voltage and capacity,i really didn't think anyone would be interested at that price.you can email her if you like.i am certain she will try to work with you on it.as for a system to use it with check with these guys.they should be able to help you out.they are pricey though.

http://www.electroauto.com/catalog/ackits.shtml#hdirect


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## Grant_NZ (May 28, 2008)

Grant_NZ said:


> Cool, thank you.
> 
> Would you have the dimensions and weight of that pack? What motor would you recommend to take that voltage?



This is the *dream *motor 

http://www.brusa.biz/products/e_motor__hsm6.17.12_transaxle412.htm


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## joseph3354 (Apr 2, 2008)

check out the heavy vehicle with manual transmission kit at electro auto.that should handle that voltage.but check with them first.


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## Grant_NZ (May 28, 2008)

Will do, thanks


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## Grant_NZ (May 28, 2008)

Thanks you Joesph.

Just emailed her for a price including freight to New Zealand and if the packs come equipped with an internal cell disconnect that permanently opens the current path on high pressure, including a separator for shut down on high temperature. I'll let you know if your interested


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## Grant_NZ (May 28, 2008)

Ok I seem to have worked it out, the following is using the formula from the wiki pages - 

Range Average wh/m 
80m (130ks) x 500 + 35% = 54,000 watt hours 


Watt hours Motor 
54,000 / 540 volts = 100Ah 


Battery pack required - 540v at 100ah - 45 x 12volt 100ah Lithium Polymer batteries (or 130 batteries at 4.2 volts) 

Motor - SIEMENS 1PV5135WS24 AC Induction 


Is that correct? and if so, does it mean that the system is 540 volts??  seems a bit excessive


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## joseph3354 (Apr 2, 2008)

just curious as to why you are using 500wh/mile as your rate of consumption.a lot of EV's use as little as 250wh/mile.the average on the evalbum.com site is around 300wh/mile(for those that are showing their rates).i think you may have overestimated your requirements.it would be helpful to know the size of the vehicle you are converting.

the truck you refered to on the evalbum is only using 34kw battery pack for an 85 mile range.


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## Grant_NZ (May 28, 2008)

The reason for the 500wh range is because I am currently renovating houses and require an every day driver that can handle the the large hills and the materials it will be carrying. I plan on converting a long wheel based pickup truck which is what I currently use.

In particular there is an approximately 4k (2.5mile) incline that is quite steep in places and due to the load, I'm down to second gear in my ICE vehicle sometimes, crawling at around 30kph (20mph) and carrying about 800kg (1760 pounds)

So in theory I'd be using a lot of power? (apologies for the long winded explanation  )


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## joseph3354 (Apr 2, 2008)

Ah...i see...lots of power needed.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Grant_NZ said:


> Watt hours Motor
> 54,000 / 540 volts = 100Ah
> 
> 
> Is that correct? and if so, does it mean that the system is 540 volts??  seems a bit excessive


You can work it out with different amp hours: 54,000 / 270 = 200Ah for example.


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## E_power (Jun 3, 2008)

Grant_NZ said:


> Is that correct? and if so, does it mean that the system is 540 volts??  seems a bit excessive


Try this ... http://www.evconvert.com/tools/evcalc/


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## Grant_NZ (May 28, 2008)

Cool thanks guys 

I’m probably being a bit greedy because in reality, it’s a rare occasion to carry that much and I’ve decided to get large quantities delivered... time is money and all that.... so I think 400wh is plenty...


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## MaverickNZ (May 14, 2008)

I was just doing some spreedsheet calculations and it seems for the same capacity battery pack while litium provides about a 40% reduction in weight but is about 8 times the volume for the same rating pack


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## rsisson (Feb 5, 2009)

When looking at Lithium Batteries, DONT look at the pre-packaged 12v batteries. They are NOT what you want, are expensive, overweight and over-packaged. Some of the Batteries I have seen written about here are GREAT for Drag Racing or other BURST usages...

For EV CAR applications you need to be looking at a set of *RAW* 100-180Ahr 3V cells adding up to around 120V (roughly 40 Cells). The BEST price on these cells is currently about $1.10/hr 

http://www.evcomponents.com/SearchResults.asp?Cat=34

To this, you need to add a Battery Management system, they start at about $25 PER CELL and then add a "master Control" for another $300.

http://www.evpower.com.au/-Thundersky-Battery-Balancing-System-.html

THEN you add a GOOD charger...$1200-2500.

These are all PRODUCTION items... they may be stuck in customs or on a loading dock, but these are available TODAY.

There is a lot of unubtanium stuff out there... but lithium's are REAL and available, just not cheaply yet...


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