# [EVDL] EVangelism



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Seth Rothenberg wrote:
> > I am going to be interviewed on the topic
> > of Electric and hybrid cars.
> > The interviewer tipped her hand,
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

I wouldn't respond to a "journalist" who telegraphed his or her pre-
determined conclusions. Nor for that matter to one who worked for a "news" 
organization known to be shilling for some particular viewpoint. 

To do so is a waste of time. If you present evidence contrary to the 
desired conclusion, you'll be ignored - or, worse, your words will be 
twisted to suit the hack's aims.

Better to spend your time in the garage building a real world EV that we all 
know works, and has positive benefits for you and others.

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Which is better EV or pih? It depends ...

This is where my newswire posting can come in handy (see Bruce's crap 
can be useful).

Reading all my EVLN: newswire posts 
http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/template/NamlServlet.jtp?macro=search_page&node=413529&query=evln&sort=date

might be overwhelming, so you may want to focus on the hybrid posts
http://evdl.org/archive/#nabble%2Btemplate%2FNamlServlet.jtp%3Fmacro%3Duser_nodes%26user%3D204231

and the more important EV newswire posts on users brucedp
http://evdl.org/archive/#nabble%2Btemplate%2FNamlServlet.jtp%3Fmacro%3Duser_nodes%26user%3D160789

and the second tier ones on brucedp5
http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/template/NamlServlet.jtp?macro=user_nodes&user=212742

For a good snap shot, a three month window should give you a good 
idea. I would not bother going back any further than that as that 
would be just history to the reporter.

Yes, I have seen that newswire trend to push for pih purchases rather 
than EV. Currently I am seeing a 10 to 1 ratio of pushing hybrids 
(hev or pih) to EVs are OK. 

IMO this is another funded push to continue to burn petrol and keep
the oil addiction without the public being properly informed how to
truly look at both their driving 'needs' and what is available on 
the market.

The choice is up to the consumer, but many of the public only 
'parrot' (repeat) what they are told by the media outlets that are 
paid to release. Writers may be given a topic to do a story on, but
it is the media's Editor that decides and adjusts stories to fit 
what the business paying for the piece wants.

...
A recent example: at a new EVSE install local to me, I took a little 
time to talk to the adults that use the facility it was installed at 
(a community center for family use). 

The young adults knew of the EVSE and EVs, but were too focused on 
being cool and getting tight to spend any time talking to an ol' 
duffer. 

A young mother with her newborn slung on her chest knew about them 
because she had read the EV signage, and was coo-ing to her baby 
that its' world would be a better place because of EV use. 

And then there was the soccer coach in his late forties, sitting on 
the back of his five year old pick up truck with the bed lid lifted 
up exposing the stowed gear. Him and his buddies were nice enough to
not cut me off, but he did repeat (parrot) what he had read or heard
from the media (that plug-in vehicles had too high an up front cost 
thus too expensive, did not have the range, and were too untested t
fit anyone's needs). Pointing to the free EV charging did not impact
him as he did not equate free EV charging to not having to pay for 
gas. 

If you cut through all the pre-programing he had been fed, was there 
a vehicle that fit his needs? Since he was staunch family type 
(undoubtedly by volunteering to be the sports coach on his evenings) 
a pih truck or large SUV would be what he would be interested in. But 
since there were few of these currently on the market, and most 
importantly, none of his peers (the ol' let the other guy find a 
cheaper/better way) was driving his family in these new fangled 
vehicles, he would not even bother to consider them (what worked for,
works for me thinking).

All that will change soon, as large pih vehicles will entering the 
market. Once others have proven it is the way-to-go, this coach might 
consider a purchase of one in a few years when his wife complains that
his beloved ol' truck needs replacing (its ugly dear, and I won't be 
caught dead in it).
...

Lee and David make good points, so leaving the reporter with a concise
blurb would be what I would do, so that the EV/pih communities at least
have some input:

The public needs to know what their needs are and see if the new 
vehicle technology fits those needs for at least the next 5+ years. 

They also need to tap into all the free information of EV drivers by 
reading the forums of actual driver experiences. That last bit is the 
best tool for dispelling new buyer fears by asking the questions from 
real drivers. Dealer reps are not an information source, real drivers 
are (they will tell you like it is).

Also, knowing of all the free public EVSE in their area by exploring 
EV finder sites, like http://recargo.com/search


So, there is no quick answer as to which is better, EV or pih. It 
depends on the consumer's needs. De-programing them to let them 
discover what their real driving needs are, and then letting them make 
up their own minds, ... priceless.



[email protected]

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

I recommend you get William Kemp's book, "Zero Carbon Car" or read some
online comments he has made. He details full lifecycle costs of vehicles
and goes into a lot of detail on efficient modes of transport, ultimately
deciding to build a plug-in hybrid (from a Mazda Miata) that is net zero
carbon AND gives the range and utility drivers in North America expect. 

I love my EV and love the tips, tricks, science, and shop-talk on this site. 
But the first two responses to your question (with very due huge respect to
Lee and David) were somewhat troubling: talking to a journalist with a
preconception is pointless. We shouldn't talk to, even perhaps already
misguided, journalists? EVs need more coverage, not less. And we can use
those moments to teach the journalist (and those who listen to them) to
change their preconception. 

I think we need to be honest with the limitations that EVs have and explain
how our society/government still favors the ICE because of external costs
not born, primarily, by gasoline production (wars/pollution). We can then
promote how EVs are more efficient, are easily charged up, have less
maintenance costs, and more fun to drive. If we over promise (or hide the
"problems" EVs have) and under-deliver, we're always creating disappointment
in the end.

Finally, I'm surprised David didn't say it, but this site is concerned
primarily with electric vehicles, not hybrids. I think a very efficient gas
car CAN do better than a hybrid, which is why I'm an EVangelist, not a
Hybridangelist. EVs do better (see Chip Gribben's analysis here:
http://www.evdl.org/docs/powerplant.pdf), but with plug-in hybrids you can
get close to an EV efficiency and still have longer range; I see that as a
good compromise going forward for American drivers.

Good luck with whatever information you can get for the interview.

-----
Dan Gallagher
http://www.evalbum.com/3854

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

http://www.greencarcongress.com/2010/08/notter-20100810.html#more

On Mon, Nov 21, 2011 at 8:21 AM, Seth Rothenberg <[email protected]> wro=
te:
> Greetings,
>
> It's been a while since I read the list,
> but I am getting back to my car soon.
> (During construction, I lost my parking
> pad and shed where I worked on the car;
> now it is a carport and a workshop 
>
> But my reason for touching base is that
> I am going to be interviewed on the topic
> of Electric and hybrid cars.
>
> The interviewer tipped her hand,
> that she is researching whether the
> total environmental impact is MORE
> for a hybrid. I find that very hard to believe.
>
> If anyone has any references on this
> topic, I would be grateful.
>
> The BEST way to reach me is at
> my "other" email: [email protected]
>
> Thanks alot
> Seth
>
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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Danpatgal wrote:
> > I love my EV and love the tips, tricks, science, and shop-talk on this site.
> > But the first two responses to your question (with very due huge respect to
> > Lee and David) were somewhat troubling: talking to a journalist with a
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Lee Hart wrote
> 
> The "Pro" isn't lying, but he's answering the 
> questions he wants to answer; not the ones being asked. The "Pro" is 
> running the interview, not the reporter. 
> 
> I think you're wrong. Honesty is not what they want. They want 
> entertainment. Tell them something interesting and entertaining. Sound 
> bites. Memorable photos. Give 'em a show!
> 

Hi Lee - I agree, you must be prepared to do a "Pro" interview. If you're
afraid you're going to make EVs sound like a fringe, difficult, net losing
proposition then by all means, don't do it. Your second post is clear in
this regard. Your original reply sounded a little bit like EV's have this
huge problem to hide. 

Still, I think if we're not honest about some of the disadvantages we risk
overpromising and underdelivering you you'll get more people who once they
...


WILLIAM DENNIS Owner wrote
> 
> " ... actually find out about the cars, they like them even less."
> 

This is no way to convert people. I'd rather have 10 true believers than 50
kind 'of believers who will later be your worst enemy because you used
well-intentioned, but perhaps misleading, promotional techniques. 

Honestly, our energy policy in the US is stranger than fiction and provides
a good enough "show". We have got to make people aware that the costs to
drive a gasoline car are, well to wheels, way more than the comparable
energy to drive an EV. Many of the costs for gasoline are paid through
other taxes (for our military), health impacts, and environmental
degradation that the true costs or using gasoline are not reflected in the
price (I've seen estimates in the $10/gal with these other costs included). 
This is a huge advantage of EVs over ICEs.

Not every EV driver cares about this aspect of EVs, but I guess most do. 
And in an interview I think the details about energy efficiency, foreign
policy, and climate change (if you're so inclined) should be made loud and
clear. This can be a show - just mention the servicemen (myself included)
sent to the Middle East or Afghanistan for oil, many never to return. Or
the air pollution caused by ICE vehicles (my county in Central PA is one of
the worst - yet I keep cycling). These can be a show - should be the show. 
We need to draw these connections and see the big picture of our actions.

-----
Dan Gallagher
http://www.evalbum.com/3854

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Thanks for all the great answers.
I think I do OK in front of a microphone,
even when they cut like crazy.

For those who have not seen "my" video...
www.tinyurl.com/leafgas
("leave gas" in a European accent 

Of course, the interviewers were being
paid to look for EV supporting footage.

The interviewer in the upcoming case
is a grad student doing a research paper.

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Hi Seth,

I thought I'd add some comments and background that are in addition to what=
others have said before this. =


1) I'm not sure if this would be a good idea but I would consider getting =
up with that reporter and schedule a ride in the Leaf with him or her. I'd=
teach her/him how to drive the vehicle and how you respect the technology =
and what you find useful about the vehicle. You might want to prearrange a=
visit to a friend's house for a quick top off from one of his electrical s=
ockets and note that this can be done almost anywhere.

2) I'm installing solar hot water at my residence. I will be banking the =
electricity I save and using it to recharge my EV. If I figure I can save =
about 3100 kwhr / year and if I drive 310 times a year, I'm banking 10 kwhr=
/drive. 10 kwhr is enough to get an EV down the road 30 to 40 miles. Elec=
tricity costs $1.00. Gasoline costs $3.50/gallon. If it takes 2 gallons t=
o go 40 miles in an ICE. The difference is $6.00 or $1860/year. I can pay=
off the solar hot water in about 5 years. The pros are that I'm not using=
any gasoline during the 9,000 to 12,000 miles I drive. I'm not increasing=
my electricity usage and I'm promoting the useful benefits of driving elec=
tric. My GHG production should be far less than driving an equivalent ICE.

3) How much electricity does a refinery need to produce a gallon of gasoli=
ne? How much diesel/electricity is needed to pump oil from a well in a ter=
tiary state of production? These are things that are not often added to th=
e discussion. Note how the MSM steers us away from exploring these additio=
nal sources of emissions. The questions are out there put have not been pi=
cked up and brought into the discussions.

4) In a dream, I am at Kitty Hawk looking at First Flight. A little kid i=
s tugging on his uncle's trousers and says: "Mr. Boeing? What do you mean =
by "In Flight Meals"? Orville did not even have time to unwrap his sandwic=
h=85". As range (and inFlight Meals) came to the airplane, range will come=
to the EV. I read once that the theoretical maximum potential for Lithium=
battery technology is somewhere around 1,500 to 3,000 whr/kg. I do not ha=
ve a reference for that statement. Common current technology is in the 150=
to 190 whr/kg range. We are only at 5% to 10% of the theoretical maximum.

5) As background, we have a world wide liquid fuels problem with the main e=
mphasis here in the United States. Matt Simmons, T. Boone Pickens, and the=
Department of Defense (Joint Operating Environment 2010, pg 29) have said =
so. (ref: www.peakoil.net/files/JOE2010.pdf). The DOD is scrambling to pl=
ans for ways to conduct wars with a lot less liquid fuel usages. We curren=
tly use about 19 million barrels of oil per day and only produce about 5.5 =
million barrels of oil (not crude PLUS condensate) per day; a deficit of 1=
3.5 million barrels of oil per day. =


The "Drill, Baby, Drill" crowd was told to "shut up" by TPTB. Why? At the =
time, the World Petroleum Council (to which Exxon Mobil, is a member) put o=
ut a report that basically said that if we are allowed to drill in the Arct=
ic, off the East and West coasts of the USA and in off limits areas of the =
Gulf of Mexico, we could produce an additional 5.5 million barrels of oil a=
day by 2030 provided enough funding is made available. Current production=
in the US would drop to around 2 million barrels a day by 2030. In other =
words, we would still have a liquid fuels problem. =


Shale Oil in the Plains is alleviating some of this but it is no panacea. =
The Shale Oil in western Colorado (ref: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oil_sh=
ale) is actually kerogen, a waxy substance where operating permits allow up=
to 3 barrels of water to be used to create one barrel of "oil". This is t=
he "dry" side of the Rocky Mountains. There are a lot of environmental, te=
chnological, and financial issues in mining/refining kerogen.

Personally, I think EVs are a better solution but EVs are created using fo=
ssil fuels.

Just some thoughts. Please let us know how the interview went.



> Seth Rothenberg wrote:
> 
> > Greetings,
> > =
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Peter I think you covered it all, great points and great advice.

If a reporter wants to talk about EVs or PIHs, you can illustrate points
well by bringing to bear the problem, not the symptom;
energy illiteracy is a huge problem and can be a good backdrop against
which to illustrate more efficient forms of transportation (powered
domestically) as part of a larger solution : energy density in society will
decrease, this is one way to adapt.

As far as environmental contrasts between batteries vs burning oil; always
bring the argument back to a few things. ICE engines are inefficient, if
the reporter isn't aware of that then you've got a job cut out for
yourself. Batteries can be recycled, albeit that takes energy
but has anyone successfully recycled gasoline after it's been burnt ?

Even coal is a domestic source of energy, nobody is having coal wars ...
yet ... (Thank you Dan for pointing out our armed forces "securing our
energy future" rather than what we're told.)

In short, any reporter that hasn't studied energy is going to be in for a
shock, it could drive them to completely right off EV/PIH owners as nuts,
but honesty is the best policy. Display your passion for what you believe
in and tell the truth.
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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

As I have said before but, will repeat for those that do not know who
this brucedp guy is and what he does ...

When you sieve through as many newswires as I do on a continuous 
daily bases, you have to wade through both the irrelevant and 
relevant, the good and the bad ones as it were, to get the meatier 
ones that might be of interest to the EV/pih communities.

Normally, I do not post the negative pieces as it only fans the flames
of misinformation/discontent helping support those forces that want 
EVs/pih to go away and die a horrible death.

But from an EVangel standpoint, I feel it is important to post the
following so we can stay informed/aware of activities that can affect
our EV-cause. I feel the following is of enough importance to use this
thread. Hopefully, it is on this thread's topic of EVangelism, that it
will not cause anyone to feel I am hi-jacking the thread.

...

Back on Nov 11 I posted about the GM Volt plug-in series hybrid fire
http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/3-week-old-GM-crash-test-fire-prompts-US-Li-ion-battery-probe-tp4032993p4032993.html

The newswires quieted down after them media outlets had their fun.
Only the slow to response onesie-twosie items on this topic came 
through.

But then, a flush of new items have been coming through since the 
beginning of the T-day Holiday, and have not stopped. There are so 
many of these, that it has over whelmed the news feeds. In the 
beginning I felt like I was in the Lucy skit, trying to keep up with 
the ever accelerating assembly line. All newsworthy items have been 
buried by the tonnage. It is taking a lot of extra time to keep from
losing out on the good ones, though they are few and far between.


Here are two pieces that I feel are good to start with:

http://www.dailytech.com/Chevrolet+Volt+Flunks+Two+Out+of+Three+Crash+Tests+Triggers+Formal+Investigation/article23374.htm
Chevrolet Volt Flunks Two Out of Three Crash Tests, Triggers Formal 
Investigation

http://blogs.windsorstar.com/2011/11/28/gm-to-offer-volt-buyers-free-loaners-in-wake-of-safety-concerns/
GM to offer Volt buyers free loaners in wake of safety concerns


Nothing really new has happened, its the same old data as the Nov 11
post, but GM is now doing damage-control by stating they will offer a
loaner vehicle to those that are fearful of their Volt plug-in series 
hybrid like a knee-jerk reaction to the media-blitz.


Part of me (perhaps the cynic) is fearing that this is a GM setup,
because GM has never liked EVs from day one. But how could they 
benefit from sabotaging their own product?

-They labeled their plug-in series hybrid an EV. What ever bad things
happen to it, will happen to the EV-cause.

-They were funded by U.S. tax-payer money, so it isn't like they were 
spending their own money.

- GM has a very long history of doing sneaky dirty deeds that
ultimately only benefit them. 

-more-


And on the other hand, the 'what if' thoughts step in of has GM 
made a design and or manufacturing flaw (like automakers do with ice)
that is just getting way-too much media attention.

Those that did not go through the 1990's media blitzkrieg against EVs
have no clue of how the media can be bought to destroy a: product,
company, or cause.

Old-timers remember how an experimental high-temperature sulfur
battery fire played up in the media had Ford running for the hills.
Ford killed that EV battery development because of that over-played
bad press.


Pointing fingers without any hard evidence is suspect, but who would
benefit if EVs/pih that reduce foreign oil dependence, just went away,
and the petrol-addiction could go back to its regular level of flow
of profits? It is simple enough to throw million$ at media outlets to
pump bad press out.


EVangels are going to have more work handling all the negativity from 
all of this media hoopla, and not just for the here and now. The
ramifications could last a long time (for decades the use of h2 always
brought discussions of the Hindenburg, thus discouraged/stopped).

We need to keep an eye on this to see where the push is coming from,
and head off any damage all of this will have on the EV-cause.


{brucedp.150m.com}

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