# EVs Are For Fun



## onegreenev (May 18, 2012)

Well first of all I know of no car that pays you back over time. A car is a depreciating item. This is with ICE or EV. But economical? Yes they are actually. Clearly you did not do the numbers. Now remember that a car is purchased mostly because of WANT vs NEED. So I want a car that costs $30,000 and gets 20 mpg. That is average. The car will require normal maintenance costs over its life for the next 15 years. So If I discount the cost of the car and its normal maintenance and what you really have left over is cost to feed the darn thing. So Lets say I keep this car and drive it to work and back (90% of all my driving) and a few extras. Over the next 15 years I will put on this car 225,000 miles. If the cost of fuel remained or remains the same as it is right now at $4 per gallon it will be 11,250 gallons of gasoline. That will cost $45,000 dollars just for the fuel. So lets say we only do this for 10 years, it will still cost $30,000 dollars because I put on 15,000 miles per year. 

So now I have an electric car I spent $6K for and another $5k for the components and another $15k for the cells to give me a range of 90 solid miles which is pretty good. So in 10 years you put on the same miles. That is 150000 miles. At our electric rates that will cost you what? Lets say you get 70 miles per charge to be conservative and .11 cents per kWH. So lets say you put in 30kWh per charge. That is $3.30 per charge. So you only charge once per day and you put on 15,000 miles per year. It will cost you at most $8k for the same mileage. So the cost of your car is not included but if you did include your costs you would only spend $34K for the same time and miles. My cost just in fuel alone for the same time and mileage is $30,000. If I include the cost of the car I chose it would cost me $60,000 dollars. Not including keeping the car running or smog checks or any thing like that. So you actually saved $25,000 over me. Remove the car from the equation and you save over me $22,000 dollars. Wow, that is a savings higher than the cost of the battery pack alone.


Do your math.


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## PStechPaul (May 1, 2012)

There are several ways to look at vehicles and transportation in general. We have become accustomed to having one or more cars or trucks for our personal or business use, and until recently the energy cost from fossil fuels was minimal. The phenomenon of muscle cars in the 1960s was partially to increase consumption to boost revenue for the big energy companies. And the paradigm of suburban sprawl with people commuting long distances was also possibly part of a conspiracy to sell more gasoline and bigger, faster cars. But now we may need to rethink the concepts that got us to the present situation.

As a purely utilitarian issue with a view to greatest overall efficiency and least consumption of natural resources, we should question the need for people to live so far from their places of work, and whether they really need to be present in person at those places of business. And also the idea of driving aggressively for fun, or to gain advantage over others on public roads, should be questioned, as it is a matter of safety as well as a cause of excess consumption.

I am fortunate to be able to work mostly from home, and when I need to travel to my usual place of work, it is a round trip of about 60 miles. Otherwise my transportation needs are usually short local trips for food or other supplies. But sometimes I need to take longer trips, such as 80 miles to Hagerstown, or a trip of almost 500 miles to and from a campground in Boone, NC. An EV would be practical for most of my needs, but not for the longer trips.

Looking at the economics, I paid about $4200 for my car in 2008, and I have spent perhaps $500/year for maintenance. I drive only about 5000 miles a year, and average 35 MPG, so at $3/gallon I spend less than $500/year on fuel. If I can keep my car for ten years, my total cost will be about $15,000 or $1500/year.

Obviously there is no way for me to justify the purchase of a new EV or hybrid based on saving money. I would pay twice as much just for the vehicle and would still have to add the cost of fuel and maintenance. But assume I could build a DIY EV that would meet most of my driving needs. I would need to have a range of about 80 miles (although I could probably get by with half that and charge at work, where they have a 480V three phase 400A service). So let's say I go with the 40 mile range so at 250 Wh/mile I'd need 10kWh of batteries. They would be at least $5000, and the cost of a car and conversion would be perhaps about $5000. 50,000 miles of driving over 10 years, at $0.10/kWh, would be 12,500 kWh or $1250, and I would still have maintenance costs, although less than for an ICE vehicle, but perhaps $300/year or another $3000. So adding it all up it would cost me a bit over $14,000.

So I just about break even or get a slight advantage with an EV. But I would still need my ICE car for long trips, unless I can use public transportation or rent a vehicle for those occasions. I don't think those options are cost-effective at this point, but there may be systems in the future that might be.

Actually, the numbers look better than I expected, and I would also consider the "fun factor" of driving an EV, as well as the fun of designing and building it according to my own ideas, and the overall environmental benefit. But at this point I can't really afford the up-front cost of about $10,000 to build one, and there is also the issue of additional insurance, and a good place to keep the vehicle(s), since I don't have a garage and I essentially live in the woods, which is hard on a vehicle.


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## Ziggythewiz (May 16, 2010)

Nathan219 said:


> FYI at gasoline at ~$20.00 per gallon it still take over 70,000 miles for the economics to work.


Maybe you should try doing math more often. For your numbers to work your EV would have to cost nearly $50k.

Mine saves me $100/mo. It won't have paid for itself anytime soon, but it will by the time I hand it down to the kids.


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## mk4gti (May 6, 2011)

If someone is building an EV only for "saving money", perhaps they need to rethink the strategy.

EV Conversions are made to be fun, to learn, to make a statement. Yes you can make a return on investment but that could take a decade 

To me it's nothing more than a hobby plus a 12-step program from the "big oil" addiction.


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## Jamie EV (Oct 3, 2012)

Nathan219 said:


> Try as you might EVs don't make economic sense


I know after reading about Forkenswift that this is simply not true. Mind you, not everyone has the fortune to find a forklift motor and controller for cheap and some of our needs are different than theirs but in many cases, EV projects can save thousands amortized over the life of one battery pack and even more over the life of the components which often re-incarnate into other gliders...sometimes two and three times more!

I think that the OP has some fair points though. For most on here, EV building is a labor of love and in many cases, splurging on important aspects is unavoidable, especially if you have certain performance requirements in mind.

Still though, there are a lot of costs associated with gas cars that we just don't calculate many of them societal. 

Pollution, feeding an already bloated energy infrastructure that is receiving corporate welfare from your tax dollars, creating a market for OPEC nations and all the political unrest that this entails, etc etc. In other words, your soul has a balance sheet too and if you drive an ICE car, there's a lot of red on your ledger by the end of your life.

As for basic costs, a lot of value is ascribed to the fact that EV are much more maintenance free. A lot less to go wrong that you can't fix yourself in an EV...after all you built it. You would know. From those I have spoken to, EV are mainly a dream to own and operate...aside from a different set of routines that is.

So are they really economically viable? I think that if you include lifestyle and balance in economics then yes. The root word of economics is eco which means balance. I would argue that with an EV, there is more balance in your life so, yes i think they are viable.

Just my 2c


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## Nathan219 (May 18, 2010)

Still like the doing it for fun over saving money. If you try to cut corners everywhere I feel you will end up with a basket case of a car.


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## dragonsgate (May 19, 2012)

Nathan219 said:


> Still like the doing it for fun over saving money. If you try to cut corners everywhere I feel you will end up with a basket case of a car.


_ I concur. _
I built my EV with hobby in mind and no real thoughts of saving gas as it was about half what it is now. In the last couple of years I have been doing some figuring and come to the conclusion that my electric car has paid for it’s self with some $change left over. The next most economical car I own is a 2002 Dodge Intrepid with a 2.7liter V6. I have gotten 32mpg on the open road and have generously estimated twenty mpg around town. For the last four years I have made a 9 mile round trip to the post office in our little tourist town doing up hill stop and go creep along dodging tourist on foot and in cars to drop off packages. I have made this trip at least 90% of the time in my electric. Based on 20mpg @ $3.50 a gal. in the Intrepid Vs. the electric prorating my battery cost plus KW used the electric wins in gas savings alone. While I consider my car as a fun hobby there are some perks how ever small. If I base my savings on my 70 Toyota (350 ci.Chevy) Landcruiser gas mileage I should qualify for some kind of government kickback.


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## onegreenev (May 18, 2012)

The best perk of an ev! Clean air to breath. No more stinky gas. Well not quite but doing much better than before. I plan on a small generator to haul along for the longer hauls in my Roadster so I can charge where ever I happen to be. I am talking a tiny generator but one that will put out a reasonable amount of power. Most likely diesel power so I can run veggie oil for the fuel. 


Easy to tow with little loss in distance. 

Hobby. No and yes. I have a vision of a world of electric driven vehicles. Maybe not cars like we are accustomed to driving. I see totally different but still electric for the most part.


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## Ziggythewiz (May 16, 2010)

So you're comparing cost/kWh...it looks like you factor in an electric kWh as ~4x cheaper than gas, but where does the 4x more efficient get factored in?


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## dladd (Jun 1, 2011)

The car my EV replaced was a minivan that got 14mpg in my daily driving (all in town, short trips, 30-40 miles/day). It was totaled in a vehicle fire, I got $15k from the insurance company for it. I then spent that $15k on my EV (a bit less, but I'm planning to add a new charger soon, so I'll round up...). So far, I'm even with a straight up swap. Gas car for EV. Granted I'm now driving a 1995 Saturn instead of a 2005 Odyssey, but I like it better anyway.  And it meets all my needs in a daily driver.

On the electricity cost side, I just compared September of this year with September of last year (the last month before I started driving the EV) and our electric cost went from $145 last year to $199 this year. So instead of spending $238/month on gas (assuming 10k miles/year and $4/gallon) I spent $54 on electricity. A $184 savings! I'll admit that as a family we made a concious effort to reduce our electrical usage as much as possible in the last year. The whole family has had fun with it, focussing on shutting off lights and stuff, and not using the AC. I'm sure that offset a good deal of the electric car energy usage.

Anyway, as I see it, I'm already in payback.  I know, it's fuzzy math but I like it.


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## Jamie EV (Oct 3, 2012)

strictly speaking the OP is correct to say that it's not a good economic plan to convert an ev...I know there are exceptions but generally he's right....but that does not mean it's just "for fun". It's also a powerful statement. A shot across the oil company's bow. 

Personally, if I manage to finish a conversion, I will shout if loud enough for everyone to hear that even I could do this...so why can't Detroit do a reasonably priced one? Social acceptance is a really good reason to convert to ev. Raise awareness and whatnot.


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## onegreenev (May 18, 2012)

It does make economic sense to convert. The economics of just making and delivering fuel for your car makes no sense. The only economics is that it generates gobs of money but screws up the environment that we then spend gobs of money on to repair sorta. Gives people a reason to steal more money from government funding. 

It makes perfect sense. But not to those who stand a chance to loose money because of it. Those folks need to go anyway.


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