# HHR10000VH cells ??



## Xringer (Oct 12, 2008)

I was looking at the specs for the HHR10000VH cells and find them interesting.

http://industrial.panasonic.com/www-data/pdf2/ACG4000/ACG4000CE234.pdf

Would these be useful in building an EV pack??


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## madderscience (Jun 28, 2008)

Xringer said:


> I was looking at the specs for the HHR10000VH cells and find them interesting.
> 
> http://industrial.panasonic.com/www-data/pdf2/ACG4000/ACG4000CE234.pdf
> 
> Would these be useful in building an EV pack??


Dang, a 100AH Ni-MH cell. 

Yes, it is of a size that is useable for EV's. assuming for the sake of argument 80% of the capacity is usable, A string of 120 of these would be more or less equivalent in usable energy capacity to 20 Flooded lead acid golf cart batteries, but would weigh about 1/3 as much.

Questions to ask:

What is the maximum safe continuous charging current? Discharging current ("C" rating?) Are they available with solder tabs? Lifespan in cycles to 80% DOD before the cell is reduced to 80% of rated capacity? (a fairly standard definition of end-of-life?) Can they even be purchased in the US? Are these excluded by the Ovonics/Chevron patents or are they a different (enough) technology?

Things to consider: These batteries would probably require some kind of battery balancing system and charge/discharge management for best performance and lifespan.

And the big question of course: How much and where can I get a couple hundred?


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## Xringer (Oct 12, 2008)

Looks like about size of a large ice tea glass.. 

The data on the spec page looks pretty good to my EV novice eyes.
I've never even heard of a *V* cell, but I like the size. 

I've seen specs around the web, but no one seems to be selling them.

My guess is they aren't for sale around here (yet). If they were,
I'm sure people would be using them on all kinds of stuff.

I wonder if the current Japanese Hybrids are using* V *cells in their packs??


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## DIYguy (Sep 18, 2008)

Xringer said:


> Looks like about size of a large ice tea glass..
> 
> quote]
> 
> ...


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## DIYguy (Sep 18, 2008)

There is some discrepancy in the literature I found. One manual shows cycle charts of this battery reaching 1500 cycles at 50 DoD and a life of 8 - 12 years. Another document (perhaps a more generic one for N-mh) states 500 cycles (if managed correctly) and a max discharge of 2C. It appears that the claim to fame for this newer version is the ability to trickle charge even at higher temperatures which I guess was an issue for standard N-mh.  

Check out this link. There are several "Downloads" at the bottom of the page. Looks like they are also available in packs, see the handbook download, near the bottom.

http://www.panasonic-industrial.com/public/eu/en/product-range/1/12/14/HHR10000VH.html


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## Xringer (Oct 12, 2008)

A salesman wrote the 1500 version and a conservative engineer said 500 cycles.. 

Not being much of an expert on giant batteries, I'm somehow getting
the feeling that these batteries are too good to be true.. 

Without some hefty tabs on their ends, I can't see drawing 50A out of them..
Packs?? I think the V cell (2.6 pounds per cell?) are going to be 
too big and too heavy for installing inside shrink-wrap (like you can do with sub-C cells).
These big boys are going to need a solid mounting system. 
A 12V (10 pack) would weight over 26 pounds.. 
Wow! That sure seems light. Compare to lead acid 12V 100AH, it's
danged light! 


A good test is someone installing about 30 pounds of these babies 
on a bicycle and see what kind of range they got.. 30 miles?? 
200 pounds on a light motorcycle?? 

Anyways, I'm looking for a good lightweight pack for my Plug-in
Weak Hybrid experiment. Something that's not going to clean
out my savings account.


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## ww321q (Mar 28, 2008)

the bottom line is always 
$
and if they are real .
I could cad a drawing of a new battery and put loads of specs and that would do us as much good . J.W.


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

I'm with J.W. on this one. What is the availability of these cells? Price is one thing, but are they even for sale to people like us?


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## DIYguy (Sep 18, 2008)

I should be able to get some answers on Monday. One thing I can say about the Matsushita Electric Co. (aka Panasonic) they don't tend to overstate any claims. I have dealt with them for over 10 years and bought several million dollars worth of industrial equipment from them. I did evaluations on wave form control inverter weld power supplies that had several "industry firsts" claims. They were real. Japan is not China. Their documentation is usually very accurate (once u get the right document lmao) , (though not the best grammar Jinglish we call it.... ) I worked with their Engineers in Japan and Chicago and spent time in their factories over there also. They are typically very conservative in their claims to fame. They have a museum of electrical "stuff" including many patented inventions and it is absolutely amazing. 

The comment regarding price that was mentioned is probably the real issue. Let's see what we can find out.

BTW, there is info on packs including pictures if you look at the down load docs. They have the spot welded tabs and shrink wrapping. These guys will put them in little brown paper bags, if you buy enough of them.  

Cheers,

G


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## Frank (Dec 6, 2008)

Wow - just thinking, didn't Panasonic already have an agreement with Chevron for larger format cells? Maybe these are legit...!!

Looks like about 1C discharge and .2C charge rate...


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## Technologic (Jul 20, 2008)

The question is if they're worth 1/3rd or 1/4th the lifecycle of lithium. Though the technology COULD be so cheap, for what I understand the patent that Chevron has is leased at a very large price


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## DIYguy (Sep 18, 2008)

I had some encouraging email exchange today with two different Panasonic folks. One was the fairly recently retired President of Panasonic Canada Factory Automation. He was extremely helpful and offered to do his best to "support you on a technology development basis, ie;sell them to you at a discount or better yet, cost." No promises though. This fellow is a real DIY kind of guy also. He was genuinely interested in the project. He told me how the old Company he use to work for made an electric car using an old Renault. They used a generator from a motor/gen welder and used the car for several years for a lot of short errands. 

I also contacted an engineer, who I know pretty well, from Chicago. He is also pursuing it to see what he can do/what he can find out. Should be interesting. Too bad Panasonic doesn't make LiFePo's! lol


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## DIYguy (Sep 18, 2008)

Technologic said:


> The question is if they're worth 1/3rd or 1/4th the lifecycle of lithium. Though the technology COULD be so cheap, for what I understand the patent that Chevron has is leased at a very large price


If the life cycle claim of 1500 at 50% DoD is accurate.. .that's not bad.....


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## Technologic (Jul 20, 2008)

DIYguy said:


> If the life cycle claim of 1500 at 50% DoD is accurate.. .that's not bad.....


 
It's not bad at all, the issue becomes how charging is best carried out, and if the price (I'm hoping for half the price of lithium here). 

I have no doubt that Panasonic is being honest, they very rarely exaggerate, and I'm sure those charts are legitimate testing.

The question becomes how much can you drain the batteries before damaging them permanently, and how best to charge them...


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## DIYguy (Sep 18, 2008)

Technologic said:


> It's not bad at all, the issue becomes how charging is best carried out, and if the price (I'm hoping for half the price of lithium here).
> 
> I have no doubt that Panasonic is being honest, they very rarely exaggerate, and I'm sure those charts are legitimate testing.
> 
> The question becomes how much can you drain the batteries before damaging them permanently, and how best to charge them...


I have a conference call scheduled with a battery division applications engineer from Panasonic... today. I will ask these questions. I'm not very well versed with the characteristics of these batteries. Sounds like they have something new in the chemistry though.

Cheers.


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## Technologic (Jul 20, 2008)

Frank said:


> Wow - just thinking, didn't Panasonic already have an agreement with Chevron for larger format cells? Maybe these are legit...!!.


They did, I believe they were the ones making them for the toyota hybrids.


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## Technologic (Jul 20, 2008)

Wow I'm growing more impressed with these batteries.

Firstly to get 8kwh (what I need) you'd need a pack of 72... but what's so awesome is that pack would fit into a 15 inch x 15 inch x 14 inch space (incredibly tiny). However the weight of it will be a bit over lithium at about 261 lbs.

I think each cell needs a price of about $30-35 to make it even semi cost effective to use them over prismatic lithium.

Truthfully though I'd like to see a $20-25 price per cell, that's about what I think they're "worth". Good news is their standard charging amperage in a 72 cell system could be had out of 120v wall outlets.


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## ww321q (Mar 28, 2008)

I'm betting that they want more like $80 to $120 each . J.W.


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## Technologic (Jul 20, 2008)

ww321q said:


> I'm betting that they want more like $80 to $120 each . J.W.


 
Then Panasonic likes to have poor business models


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## Xringer (Oct 12, 2008)

*Re: HHR10000VH cells ?? Group buy???*



Technologic said:


> Wow I'm growing more impressed with these batteries.
> 
> Firstly to get 8kwh (what I need) you'd need a pack of 72... but what's so awesome is that pack would fit into a 15 inch x 15 inch x 14 inch space (incredibly tiny). However the weight of it will be a bit over lithium at about 261 lbs.
> 
> ...



I'm thinking a pack of 60 would do the trick for my Weak-Hybrid conversion idea with watts to spare.
Maybe 60 would fit into the little storage bin under the back deck of my CRV.?. 
I would have to make the pack round, like a compact spare tire. 

$20 each would be VERY competitive with lithium cells!

*Group buy???*


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## DIYguy (Sep 18, 2008)

None of these will be in any X-mas stockings. This particular battery has not been sold in North America nor is it available. Basically, it will be discontinued soon and was made for one major customer in Japan. The application was standby power of some kind. My source indicated that there may be some ways to find some of these through European sales... but he is not sure. What they offer is the 650 and 900 D cells. (6.5 and 9 Ah respectively).

I did ask him about some other interesting battery technology though.. some very long life VRLA's. These would be the most advanced LA batteries out there for long life applications claiming 17 years for low power needs. These seem to have been introduced in Europe already. They are produced in China under Panasonic patent license. They come up to 200 Ah in 6V and 120 Ah in 12V. I realize this isn't of interest to most of you... but I will likely end up using VRLA for my first pack until LiFePo's come down in $ and more are out there. Oh ya... the model numbers start with LC-QA______ .

Oh well, nothing ventured, nothing gained. At least now we know.

Cheers.


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## order99 (Sep 8, 2008)

Figures.

Sigh.


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## Xringer (Oct 12, 2008)

*"it will be discontinued" !!!

*I guess a new movie is going to come out now..*

"Who Killed the Electric Car Battery?"

---

*The whole idea that there are jerks some place sitting around a table plotting how to slow down the advancement of EVs, just stinks! 

Never mind all the pollution that could be prevented by selling people better EV batteries.. 

*


 *


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## DIYguy (Sep 18, 2008)

Xringer said:


> *"it will be discontinued" !!!
> 
> *I guess a new movie is going to come out now..*
> 
> ...


Panasonic has been leading the pack in battery development for many years for most chemistries. They hold hundreds of patents and have many inventions/developments. They make the current batteries used in the Prius. They really aren't trying to thwart and advancement...that has more to do with the oil and auto industries. One thing they are admittedly poor at is marketing.


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## Xringer (Oct 12, 2008)

I'm not talking about Panasonic, but all those greedy jerks withholding
patents and keeping the stuff we all need_* right now*_ off the market.

What's the cost of this greed going to be?


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## DIYguy (Sep 18, 2008)

Xringer said:


> I'm not talking about Panasonic, but all those greedy jerks withholding
> patents and keeping the stuff we all need_* right now*_ off the market.
> 
> What's the cost of this greed going to be?


I hear ya... it is substantial that is for sure. I think you need to take solice in the efforts of ppl such as those on this forum... folks like you... who are making a difference. These things.. the acts... define who YOU are. This is what you have control over...


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## Technologic (Jul 20, 2008)

Xringer said:


> I'm not talking about Panasonic, but all those greedy jerks withholding
> patents and keeping the stuff we all need_* right now*_ off the market.
> 
> What's the cost of this greed going to be?


 
I can't say for sure, but I don't think Panasonic is responsible for this limited availability, but probably it was part of the licensing itself. It's difficult for me to agree that patents make someone greedy. However, in this case, this particular patent purchase was solely to keep the batteries from existing in large format (chevron is famous for it's cartel like practices).

This is similar to the way Debeers has tried to destroy CVD diamonds and other artifical growth pure diamonds, unsuccessfully. However, Debeers has been highly successful buying up diamond mines whenever one is found to control prices.

The question is IMO, why we're still looking at 18 year old technology and scratching ourselves over wanting it. R&D on this sort of thing isn't being spent on intelligent engineers to figure out the solutions, but more "new chemistries for the same ol same ol"


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## Xringer (Oct 12, 2008)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nickel_metal_hydride_battery

Under 
*Patents and licenses*

_
NiMH batteries were discovered before Ovonics. The patents in question are not for all NiMH batteries but specific methods and types._

---------------

Maybe someone should change the formula a little bit and make us some
useful cells??


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## Voltswagen (Nov 13, 2008)

Yankee Ingenuity has always premised itself on the "Find A Need And Fill It" concept.
I have a feeling that somewhere, someone at this very instant is burning the Midnight Oil to create a viable Home-Brewed portable power source.
A Better Battery! It may not be LA, NiCad or Lithium but I hope the Chinese crap themselves when it arrives.
I only wish I had the chemistry knowledge to try myself.
Meanwhile we wait.


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