# Welder?



## gmijackso (Sep 30, 2008)

The basic options for welding are:
Gas... usually oxy/acetylene, Stick, Tig (Tungsten inert Gas), Mig (Metal inert Gas), Flux.

You probably don't want to settle for gas welding/brazing. It's just not as useful in the long run. 

Stick welding is a fine thing, but you generally NEED a 220V welder to be able to weld anything very useful. They make some 110V stick welders (hobby welders) but it's really difficult to keep them at an arc. There just isn't enough current available.

TIG welding is generally used for fine finish work when done on steel, and is the usually the best choice when welding softer metals such as Aluminum. You can find some hybrid stick/tig welders that will let you do both. You can also often find stick/tig/plasma hybrids which will let you employ plasma cutting in the future. The hybrids cost more than the basics, and you probably don't want TIG either. TIG requires a bottle as well.

MIG welding is the most common. It is probaby what you used before with the wire feed system and the gas bottle. It's a great all around system for the DIYer. MIG requres a gas bottle.

Flux core welding is very similar to MIG except that it doesn't require the gas bottle. Instead, the wire has flux core to serve what is basically the same purpose as the gas. 

Now a note, you can get MIG/Flux combo welders. Basically any welder (well I'll say most any welder I'd hate to be proven wrong) that will to MIG is also capable of doing flux core. BUT doing flux core does NOT mean it will do mig. Mig/flux combo will cost a bit more than flux alone, but is more versitile.

Personally, I would go for the mig/flux combo. It's the most usable for a DIYer and if you get one sized appropriately for the biggest metal you'll think you'll ever do, it's probably all you'll ever need. 

On another note, if you live in the US, your house has 220V service at least. If your breaker box isn't too far from your shop and has 2 empty spaces in it, it wouldn't take too much to wire your shop for 220V. The 220V welders are much more versitile than 110V as there is just much more energy available to do the weld. You'll be able to weld thicker metal and will generally have better results all around.

Hope that helps some.


----------



## ww321q (Mar 28, 2008)

I would stick to brand name like Lincoln or Miller . With 15a 120v wall current you can weld 1/4" plate and if you preheat the part with a torch you can weld up to 1/2" plate . I would go with a regular mig welder with the shielding gas because the results are better and stronger . With most of the mig welders you can reverse the polarity and use regular or flux core wire . Some of the Flux core welders don't have that option . I have used the really cheep wire welders and can make any of them make a satisfactory weld but the better welders are easier to use . I have 4 welders one is a Daytona Mig . I think it pulls 25A at 120V and I have welded 1/2 plate with it . For a little welder it's a bad dude ! Like I said though get a welder that will use ether wire that way you can get co2 for it later if you want . A small co2 bottle you can rent for a year for about $25 and less then that to fill it . I also have a Lindy mig welder (the best!) , Miller tig welder, a antique spot welder and el cheepo stick welder . J.W.


----------



## gmijackso (Sep 30, 2008)

Keep in mind that a 120V welder that pulls 25A will require special wiring as well. The largest 120V outlet found in most homes is 20A. I do like the 120V welders though, it's nice to be able to drag it wherever you need to weld something, even if it's at a friends house.


----------



## Qer (May 7, 2008)

Personally I have a MIG which can be upgraded to TIG (one of these days I might do it too). I wouldn't bother with flux 'cause the thread is more expensive plus that the result isn't as good as proper MIG. It might also be useful to be able to change gas depending on what you weld. Personally I've only used Argon myself, but people I know that know more about welding claim that CO2 is useful if you, for example, have material that's more pitted by rust. One of these days I'll try myself too. 

Someone suggested sticks, but I'd recommend against it. Stick welders are less exact than MIGs and especially if you weld thinner materials (like cars...) the pin tends to burn through (trust me, I've tried). Not really applicable for EV-car projects, my opinion.

Also, don't buy cheap. Buy a good brand even if it costs 50-100% more, in the long run it'll save you a lot of frustration and bad welds. I bought an Esab which is a good brand imo, but it might not be available over there.


----------



## RKM (Jun 9, 2008)

I echo what Qer has said. 

I wouldn't recommend stick for bodywork, mig is much more forgiving. Once you get comfortable with mig, which won't take long, you won't want to use stick again. You will likely want to push .023 wire rather than .035 (lighter for lighter work). Smaller 120 V machines may not handle the heavier wire in any case.

I wouldn't go cheap either, buy a quality machine. It will do better work, should last longer and will have resale value. I have Miller, Lincoln and Esab equipment, they are all good. The ability to add a TIG could be useful if you want to do Al or SS. Such a welder starts to get a bit pricey and is likely beyond the budget of a hobby. You may get lucky and get a deal on a used commercial machine (will be 220 V or 3 PH).

Good luck.

Rob


----------



## ww321q (Mar 28, 2008)

Argon gas is used when you need a clean weld . It's the only gas to use on aluminum , stainless steel and others . It welds cold , not as much penetration as co2 . Helium is the hottest gas but expensive . Co2 is a good compromise . It has more splatter then argon but cheaper and better penetration . You can also get 75/25 mix which is 75% co2 25% argon . A lot of people use it . I myself on my mig welders use co2 . In my shop now I have 1 large cylinder of argon for the tig . 1 large cylinder and 1 25lb small bottle co2 for the mig welders and a medium tri mix bottle (co2,argon,helium) . I got my Lindy mig (made by Union Carbide) off eBay for $200 . The shipping was more than the welder . It's a 200amp 100% duty cycle that will weld circles around Miller and Lincoln .


RKM said:


> I have Miller, Lincoln and Esab equipment,
> Rob


Lindy became Esab years ago I believe . 


gmijackso said:


> Keep in mind that a 120V welder that pulls 25A will require special wiring as well. The largest 120V outlet found in most homes is 20A.


 I use a lower amp setting on the welder (it has 6) and it can weld just fine on even a 15 amp outlet (just not the thick stuff 1/2").I changed the breaker at my moms where I did use it . I put in a 30amp breaker . The outlet was only a couple feet from the breaker panel so the 12 gage wiring was ok . When I was building my shop I ran my big Miller Synchrowave 250 off a little 3500watt generator . The miller is rated at 240volts 92amps supply . Also the smaller mig welders weld better with .023 wire but can also use .030 and .035 . Lastly welders have a duty cycle . The higher the duty cycle the longer you can weld with stopping . The cheap migs have a very short duty cycle usually . My Daytona mig at the highest setting with .035 wire will only weld about 4" on 1/2 plate before it trips on thermal safety switch . A friend got one of those el cheapo welders . I got it to weld 3/16 pretty good but I had to tweak every thing on it to get it to . What ever you get if you are having problems let my know and I'll see if I can help . I'm a self taught welder from the school of hard knocks and had about every problem that you can think of . Good luck J.W.


----------



## kixGas (May 2, 2008)

I will throw in my 2 cents. I would also recommend getting a mig welder. Get a Miller or a Lincoln (do you like blue or red? LOL). And even though you don't want to use a bottle or 220 V I think that you would regret that. I highly recommend using mixed gas or 100% CO2 and 220 V. The welds are much cleaner and more predictable. The arc is also more stable. Last year I bought a Lincoln 180C for around $700. It is a great little welder and I have absolutely no regrets. I have built suspension components and have had great results. I learned a long time ago that if try to buy a cheap tool you will be paying twice.


----------



## TX_Dj (Jul 25, 2008)

GMAW if you're on a budget, GTAW if you want to do it right.

I have a cheap harbor freight 220v GMAW rig that I use for all things... It's not the best welder in the world by any means, it has a 2-bit binary power setting, (I.E. Min1/Min2/Max1/Max2) which sometimes leaves you with no "in-between" when you need it. I've welded aluminum and steel with it, and overall I'm mostly happy. It takes time to get to know the rig as to how much gas you should use, what wire speed you need, the power setting, and what torch technique you should be using.

I'm no welder, and I've built a lot of stuff with it. A lot of stuff that looks kinda nasty on the welds because of my inexperience, but every time I use it I get a little better at it.

If you want to "do it right" go with a GTAW rig. I'll be upgrading someday.


----------



## dtbaker (Jan 5, 2008)

el cheapo stick welder running on 120v is plenty for welding thin angle iron. A wire-feed welder is nice because you don't have to stop to reload, but this work is just short little welds anyway. You can get a brand new stick welder for less than $200 from Harbor Freight, JCwhitney, or even home depot.

you'll probably also want: sawzall, sabre saw, angle grinder, and maybe an abrasive cutoff blade for a circular/mitre/chop saw, but cutting metal kinda messes them up. Bandsaw is ideal, but a big investment.


----------



## Qer (May 7, 2008)

Oh, oh, oh, I wanna add more to the confusion! 



ww321q said:


> Argon gas is used when you need a clean weld.


I was recommended to start with Argon because it's supposed to be easier to learn use MIG with Argon than CO2. Can't say if it's true or not since I haven't used anything else yet so I can't tell the difference, but I didn't find it very hard to get the feeling for the MIG since I was used to stick welding before that. If that was because of the Argon gas or that I already knew how to weld I can't tell...



dtbaker said:


> el cheapo stick welder running on 120v is plenty for welding thin angle iron. A wire-feed welder is nice because you don't have to stop to reload, but this work is just short little welds anyway. You can get a brand new stick welder for less than $200 from Harbor Freight, JCwhitney, or even home depot.


I'd only recommend stick welders if the budget is real tight. Sure, I still use my stick welder now and then since I already have it and it's easier to transport, but if it broke I don't think I'd replace it. MIG is so much nicer and easier to use. For example that it arcs on command rather than when (if?) it feels like it and that you can aim without it going off is worth a lot to me.

YMMV, of course.


----------



## TX_Dj (Jul 25, 2008)

dtbaker said:


> You can get a brand new stick welder for less than $200 from Harbor Freight


The one like I have right now is only $250 from HF. Not the best quality, and has its shortcomings, but so far it's been effective for everything I've used it on.

http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=97503










Not included are things like Argon/CO2 bottles, regulators for the bottles, etc. It comes with a length of flux core wire (gasless) so you can get busy right away.

Flux core wire works like stick welding, only the shield gas is generated by the stuff in the center of the wire, rather than on the outside of the wire... and the wire auto-feeds.

The tricky part really is getting the power and feed speeds set right for the type of work you're doing. In my (limited) experience, I just fumble a few tests until I get it right, and then roll with it. If you feed too much, you get fat globby welds, if you feed too little or use too much power, you get splatter and it cuts more than welds. Takes a little experimentation to get it "just right".

Also, if you go with flux core on a gas/gasless rig like that, be sure your polarity is set right. Flux works best with the polarities reversed, which is usually handled by a switch or by physically changing the position of the leads that go to the torch and clamp. The model above has two studs in the wire bay that the cables terminate to, to change polarity you just unscrew the nuts and reverse the position of the wires. Be sure to change it back if you go back to gas shielding, otherwise you're just making plasma balls


----------



## ww321q (Mar 28, 2008)

I have used wire welders so cheap that the welding wire is always hot and the trigger on the gun pinches off the shielding gas hose . I still got it to weld ok . The main thing on wire feed welders and getting a good weld is smooth feeding of the wire . Just the slightest kink or twist in the gun lead will make it weld bad . Also on cheaper welders you need to keep a fresh contact tip . One welder I used had a problem with the drive rollers embossing little cuts in the wire and this caused a bad connection in the contact tip . I sanded the drive roller groves out and it started to weld better . I also have found on smaller welders that the contact tip needs to be a little closer to the weld then on big welders . Some times you need to grind down the shielding gas cover to be flush with the contact tip . I know the book says different but that's what I did on some to get a better weld and more heat at the weld .1/4" to 3/8" contact tip to weld puddle . J.W.


----------



## TX_Dj (Jul 25, 2008)

And of course, using any gas-shield welding in a windy environment is either going to be hell or you're going to chew through a ton of gas in a short time.

Good point JW on the feed tube being as straight as possible. Also, the tension on the drive rollers must be enough that they get good enough traction on the wire to push it smoothly thru the feed tube, but also not so tight as to bird's nest the wire if it gets hung or stuck on something.

The last thing I welded was a cross-brace in my scooter, and I usually have to put the welder as far away as I can to keep the feed tube as straight as possible (it IS a cheap welder) and I had no room to do so, so I had to lay the feed tube over the handle bars so it only had one slight bend to go thru.

Another point to bring up... oxidization. Don't know how much this affects steel, but aluminum really hates it. It takes about 2.5x the temp to blast thru aluminum oxide as it does to heat aluminum alloy for proper welding. This is, as I understand it, one of the things the argon shields against. If your material isn't clean with fresh aluminum exposed, you'll get a botched weld.

I learned to use MIG with aluminum, perhaps the most difficult metal to weld with MIG. I probably went thru $40 worth of aluminum plate practicing my technique before I could adequately weld anything aluminum. If you can successfully weld aluminum with a MIG rig, you can weld steel like it's butter... I'm not saying you'll be an expert at either that way... but I find steel much easier to work with. Aluminum requires some special techniques on how you hold and move the torch, and steel is less picky.


----------



## madderscience (Jun 28, 2008)

Since we are all putting in plugs for our favorite equipment, I've got a Miller synchrowave 180 TIG/stick welder. It wasn't terribly cheap ($1800 or so, 10-ish years ago now) but it is awesome. The biggest $ consumable is the gas, which for argon (which might not be the cheapest gas, but works for basically everything) is about $40 for a medium-sized tank exchange. (I needed one full tank of to do all the welding for my EV conversion: battery racks, motor mounts, body mods, etc.) The electrodes and torch cups are both cheap and long lasting. Filler material (like welding rod, but without the flux) is cheap and can be found surplus. Hell, I use old bicycle spokes for filler material when I'm welding stainless.

I originally got it to build bicycle frames but I have used in on dozens of projects and I consider it a great investment; the cost has payed off in the long run in increased productivity and quality of work. I can (and have) welded aluminum, steel, cast iron, stainless steel, and copper. With some practice you could damn near weld two beer cans together with it. It can do regular stick welding too.


----------



## elevatorguy (Jul 26, 2007)

I will throw another inexpensive welder into the mix... I used a Clark mig for years (120 volt) and just bought the 220 version and sold the old one.
use with a bottle and have had zero troubles with wire feed. 
I upgraded to weld thicker steel and had a buyer for the old one
If the budget would allow i would probably go for a Miller or lincoln.


----------



## polygonfla (Aug 15, 2008)

One point that I think has been overlooked here, is, don’t forget to get a good respirator. One that uses replaceable charcoal filter cartridges is fine. Breathing in vaporized metal is very bad for your health.

Unfortunately, when you buy a welding kit they often appear to have everything to get started right away, but they don’t have the necessary safety gear such as gloves, apron and respirator.


----------



## Thaniel (May 25, 2008)

SinkTip said:


> I'm beginning to buy parts and supplies for my project. I plan to buy a welder and fabricate my own battery mounts etc.
> I plan to buy something used off craigslist so I'd like to start looking so I can snag a deal when I see it...
> So what should I look for in a welder? I have some experience with wire feed type but I'd rather not have to invest in gas bottles. I also see some small portable 120v welders which would be nice because my shop is not wired for 220 yet.
> Any comments or observations?


I did not see which type of metals and what thicknesses you are planning on welding. This will make a big difference on what you need to buy.

Other thoughts are is this just for this project or will you be building other projects? I get the feeling you're not looking at $1000 welders.

I taught myself to weld 5 or 6 years ago on a inexpensive wirefeed welder. My experience is you need one with lots of heat ranges if you plan to weld fairly thin material (I'm guessing that you will due to the project). I've used a lincoln electric wirefeed with 2 heat ranges and it was hard to use on thin stuff. The one I bought (lincoln electric 100) has 4 heat ranges and does well most of the time. It Can't weld things that are too thick but I don't play with heavy stuff anyway. Oh, my experience is all with steel.

If you are planning to weld aluminum if I am not mistaken you will need to have sheilding gas. I have not done it but so I have read. Someone correct me if I am wrong.

So if you are looking for quick, maintance free (no gas) welding on steel I recommend a flux core wire feed welder with as many heat settings as you can afford. If you want to weld aluminum or plan to sell the things you weld (need pretty looking welds) get something with shielding gas. 

My thoughts anyway.


----------



## SinkTip (Jul 21, 2008)

Thanks for all the input. I will probably go with a used 110v wire feed unit using flux core wire. I will try to find a good brand name that I can upgrade to gas if I need to at a later date.

Grant Brown
Vancouver, BC
www.veva.ca


----------



## kittydog42 (Sep 18, 2007)

If you want cheap, go buy a new Lincoln stick welder at Home Depot. They are under $300. Get some electrodes, a helmet, gloves, a slag hammer, and a good quality angle grinder and you are in business. A die grinder is also a nice thing to have but not required.

The next step up is a wire feed (MIG), which is going to cost over $1000. 

If you are doing any serious welding, you will need a 50A 200V-240V outlet. 

The stick will do what you want and is good practice for welding. You should start there.


----------



## chamilun (Jun 17, 2008)

i made my battery boxes over the weekend using 1 1/4" 3/16 or 1/8" steel. I used the $119 welder from harbor freight. worked fine. the welds seem incredibly strong, as I had to grind the welds away to get the pieces to separate. I used a heavy mallet to try and break the pieces to ensure they are safely combined. to cut the steel, I used a 10" cutoff blade on chop saw. 

this welder is a flux core welder (0.30) that requires no shielding gas and just a bit of practice to use. for the novice welder, this is the *only* way to go. i dont know if they have the next size up welder their or not, but that may be an option. uses 110V without any problems blowing the fuse in my garage.

I will now prime and paint the finished pieces.


----------



## JSRacer (Jun 22, 2008)

I like either the Miller MaxStar 150 or the Lincoln Invertec 155. They both are small especially the Miller. They both will stick weld about anything all day long at 240V. And they both are very excellent TIG welders even at 120V. 

I weld pipe for a living and I prefer TIG welding. TIG welds can be very beautiful. MIG is by far your fastest welding, and MIG can be pretty too. Stick welding is very convenient and great for someone on a budget. With TIG and MIG weld gas can be pricey if you're welding a lot.

Easiest welding is MIG, then stick, then TIG. TIG is tricky for most because if you're not just fusing metal together, you have to use both hands-one to weld and the other to add filler metal. 

Welding is a lot like painting with a paint sprayer. If you put on a nice even coat on you should be fine. It's not quite that simple but something to think about. 

Number 1 most important thing in making a great weld is to be very comfortable. If I'm in a hard position weld I'll rehearse each time before I strike up. I make sure that from where I am I can reach to where I'm going with the weld. When I feel balanced, safe, and ready I'll flip my hood and strike off.

Number 2 most important thing is patience. Be patient enough to let the metal tie into what you're welding. In most cases you never completely leave your puddle (6010 5P+ I leave my puddle in some cases). Make sure that when the metal "opens up" or craters that you stay there with your puddle long enough, and just long enough to let your puddle fill the crater back in. This is the tricky part with stick welding especially. As you move, your arc will push your work metal away so it craters. But you'll have to pause for a split second to let it fill back in. This is very important in tieing everything together making for a strong weld. 

As many have said, a MIG welding machine with flux core would be a great start for someone just learning. But IMO, I wouldn't buy anything but Miller, Lincoln, or ESAB, and in that order. But I'm by far very partial to Miller welders. They just seem to run very very smooth compared to others. 

Just my thoughts.


----------



## Gary Sconce (Oct 4, 2008)

I LOVE my Millermatic 130! Yeeeeehaaaaa!

I welded up an old flexible flyer wagon into a highboy with the gas bottle on the back and the Miller on the front, extended the handle bar and put four neumatic wheelbarrow tires on the lifted frame. I roll it all over the yard and have used it for years with no problems whatsoever. 

I use .023 wire and CO2. I have welded some pretty big stuff with it and it penetrates the metal wonderfully. I went with the 110V rig as I carry it all over and you can't always have 220V outlets all around. I really like how it can 'pop' sheet metal together on lower settings allowing all sorts of car customization and sheet metal repairs made easy.

Get a leather coat as you can never protect yourself from flying hot metal enough. I have been burned every way you can think of by bouncing metal, even though I use total protection. I have been welding for 23 years though... 

You can go to DVXuser.com and check out the DIY section under:
'Hypercrane 10'/20' build', and 'Hypercam camera stabilizer', to see some of the stuff I have welded recently for my son Matt Sconce's (mattsconce.com) movie company, Hyperactive Studios.


----------



## mattW (Sep 14, 2007)

Would someone be willing to summarise the information in this thread for the wiki? I think a "Choosing a Welder" Topic would be a great addition.

We'd just need an intro into why buying a welder would be useful for an EV builder and then the advantages and disadvantages of the various options. I can't see it taking more than 20 minutes and would be a great resource. This has been a really constructive and positive thread.


----------



## 1clue (Jul 21, 2008)

I got a Lincoln 110v MIG, thinking much along the lines of what the OP was saying only I had a higher bar for my requirements.

If I could do it over, I would have done this:


Find where I will buy the gas. (i.e. my local Air Gas)
Tell the guy what I want.
LISTEN to what he has to say.
Buy the welder there.

I have a friend who welds professionally. It turns out that the local Air Gas (or whatever) stores are in the business of selling gas. They also carry things that use the gas, but they usually sell them at cost. I've verified that at my local store, I got model numbers and prices off the equipment there and compared the prices to what I could get online.

By the time I added shipping, the local Air Gas was cheaper.

Had I done this in advance, I would have wound up spending about $1500 instead of $750. BUT, I would have gotten:


A standard wire feed for steel.
A hand-held spool for aluminum or whatever.
220 OR 110v operation, just plug it in and it knows.
Two gas bottles, one for steel and one for aluminum. (bottles not included, I would have two ports for the bottles though so I don't have to switch bottles when I switch metals)
About 20 times more duty cycle.
A welder which is set up for easy reconfiguration and parts replacement, rather than a pretty nice home garage welder.
Much greater amperage on demand. Instead of taps for A, B, C and D, I would have also had E, F, G and H. In other words, the ability to weld 1/4" steel in a single pass.

I know perfectly well that this post is way outside the range of the original poster's budget. I hope he'll listen though and apply what I said to his situation.

My original idea of what I wanted to weld turned out to be wildly inadequate. I found all sorts of projects to build, most of which my welder can't really handle.

_Edit:_
I forgot something I intended to say.

The local gas store is interested in selling gas. They want repeat business and are very serious about customer loyalty. They want you to come back over and over and over. If you feel they've screwed you, you will find somebody else to do business with. The gas prices compared to the cost of the bottle are tiny, and they have no way to prevent you from going elsewhere.

Rather than getting annoyed at my beginner questions about welders and gas and welding itself, the guys at my local air gas take all the time I want to answer questions and they have never tried to sell me something that I didn't come there to get in the first place. I've gotten a free tank upgrade, lots of zero pressure help on equipment and lots of honest opinions and info about what the pros use.


----------



## DIYguy (Sep 18, 2008)

mattW said:


> Would someone be willing to summarise the information in this thread for the wiki? I think a "Choosing a Welder" Topic would be a great addition.
> 
> We'd just need an intro into why buying a welder would be useful for an EV builder and then the advantages and disadvantages of the various options. I can't see it taking more than 20 minutes and would be a great resource. This has been a really constructive and positive thread.


I just read this thread for the first time. I got some chuckles and some raised eye brows. A lot of good comments, a few somewhat mis-informed but most based on personal experiences which is always worth something. I'm a journeyman welder (many years ago) and then worked as a Welding Engineer in a manufacturing plant, for 20 years. I could likely create something for the WIKI, when I get some time. 

Let me just say that there are many welding processes and many more derivitive processes. They all have their applications and niche places. It really depends what you want to achieve. You can say that "MIG" (a non-standard term for GMAW) is best, but if your metal is a bit rusty or dirty or lets say if you want to weld out of position and you only have Argon, or a machine with little inductance, it's not going to cut it. Just an example for you all. Perhaps I can lay out something based on application that would be helpful.


----------



## chamilun (Jun 17, 2008)

> a few somewhat mis-informed but most based on personal experiences which is always worth something


ah vay!


these words added because post was/is too short


----------



## slurryguy (Dec 16, 2008)

*More than just the welder.*

Good thread. I appreciate everyone's input.

I'm interested in the equipment required _beyond the welder itself_. How much should I budget for other items?

*Clothing/Aprons:* Recommendations? I saw an oversized ugly leather jacket really cheap at a thrift store a while back, would that be a good cheap welding jacket? What does everyone recommend? Cost?

*Gloves:* My Grandfather used to have welding gloves that were partially asbestos... I'm positive they don't make or sell those anymore. Do gloves take a beating and need replacing frequently? Or do they last a long time and buying quality makes sense? What makes a good pair of welding gloves? Cost?

*Helmet/Goggles:* Helmet or Goggles? Which make sense when doing what? Is autodarkening worth the extra money, particularly for a beginner? Cost?

*Books:* Any recommended reading? (The Welder's manual seems the best 1st place to start.) What books teach the skills to a beginner the best? 

*Pre-purchase trial:* What if a beginner wanted to zap a few welds using different welders just to get a feel for how they work on different items? Let's say I wanted to use a Stick, Mig, Tig, and Flux Core side by side and see them in action by my own unskilled hands. Is there some place I can go and do that without commiting to buy anything up front or spending a fortune? It would certainly be helpful in getting things clear in my mind what I want to eventually buy.

*Maintenace tips:* What are the most important tips for maintaining whatever equipment I get? What are the most expensive common screwups that I can avoid? What are the biggest or most costly welding mistakes each of you have made and how do I avoid making the same mistakes? (Hey... I figure if I can learn from you, I don't have to pay the money and learn the hard way, right?)

*Welding websites:* What are the best websites for learning more about welding where I'm not going to get somebody's product rammed down my throat? I'm interested in learning about welding, not getting 100 sales pitches.

*Other:* What have I left out? Are there other accessories or important tips? Costs?

Thanks


----------



## JSRacer (Jun 22, 2008)

The best tip I can give is watch someone else who knows how to weld. Watch what they do, but more importantly watch what's happening. 

There probably are books out there but IMO there's nothing better than to just weld, weld, weld. Experience is the best way to get better. But if you have someone you know that you can watch, you'll need some direction. And also, listen to anything and everything anyone says.  Some of which will be things you'll always remember and some of which you'll want to soon forget.

As far as equipment, a good pair of leather gloves, a heavy cotton shirt or a cheap (green) welding jacket, and a descent welding hood. 

I don't mean to sound arrogant or condescending, but all the best welding supplies and equipment in the world won't do you a ounce of good if you're lacking experience. Of course it's important to set yourself up to succeed, but the main concern should be technique and welding procedures that can be aquired through hooking up with someone who knows how to weld and doing one thing, "weld, weld, weld".


----------



## grayballs (Aug 27, 2008)

*Re: More than just the welder.*



slurryguy said:


> *Books:* Any recommended reading? (The Welder's manual seems the best 1st place to start.) What books teach the skills to a beginner the best?
> 
> *Pre-purchase trial:* What if a beginner wanted to zap a few welds using different welders just to get a feel for how they work on different items? Let's say I wanted to use a Stick, Mig, Tig, and Flux Core side by side and see them in action by my own unskilled hands. Is there some place I can go and do that without commiting to buy anything up front or spending a fortune? It would certainly be helpful in getting things clear in my mind what I want to eventually buy.


 
You might look into a 'Trade Extension' class at a local vocational school. They're usually quite inexpensive and taught by local journeymen. It's bound to beat burning up your money, and possibly other stuff, making mistakes. Practice, practice, practice.


----------



## DIYguy (Sep 18, 2008)

*Re: More than just the welder.*

A lot of good questions there slurry.... I'll jump in with some comments inserted. Some of the answers to some of your questions are subjective as people have different preferences.



slurryguy said:


> Good thread. I appreciate everyone's input.
> 
> I'm interested in the equipment required _beyond the welder itself_. How much should I budget for other items?
> 
> ...


----------



## RKM (Jun 9, 2008)

Slurry,

Excellent post with a great response from Gary. I think I learned more from DIYguys response than I did from a 30 hr course!

I don't have the level of expertise that Gary has but can pass on a few things...

You don't need to invest in expensive protective clothing IMHO. A good pair of cotton coveralls will protect against the vast majority of spark and spatter. Good gauntlet gloves, beany, leather boots (pant legs outside of boot tops, trust me) and your set. I use a felt beany that was once one of my Grandfather's fedora hats. Cut the brim away and you get a nice, thick, durable, spark resistant beany! It will last for many years. 

A full face shield helmet is essential. Even though I know better, I'll occassionally make a few tack welds with the shield up, eyes closed. There is very sensitive skin just above the eye lid and below the brow that can get a bad UV burn very quickly using this practice! Auto darkening hats are the way to go. They used to be expensive but now range from $50-500. I have an expensive one and a cheap one, both work fine though I prefer the expensive one. Get one that does not need batteries and that you don't need to remember to turn on. Variable shade is nice but will cost a bit more.

Your welder will likely come with a very brief set of welding instructions as well as a guide for heat and wire speed for various thinknesses of metal (I'm talking GMAW aka MIG). This is a good place to start. I tend to run hotter and with a higher wire speed than what is recommended, I travel faster to compensate. Gary's right on when he recommends practicing on scrap first. You'll soon learn what a pretty and strong weld looks like. Hit it with a hammer or flex it with a wrench to confirm the weld isn't "bubblegum".

Very important is to try and keep the line to the gun reasonably straight. You can't weld if the wire won't feed. The less resistance your drive rollers have the easier and smoother the wire will travel. Avoid twists and turns. The tip to weld puddle distance is important as well. This will vary depending on the flow rate of the shielding gas (typical is 20-30 cfh), the distance I try to maintain is between 1-2 cm (less than 1/2 inch). Improperly shielded welds will be porous, like a sponge. You'll need to grind these out and do it again. 

Another tip to produce nice smooth welds is to use both hands. I hold the gun in my right hand and use my left (forearm or hand) as a brace against the work and my right hand. It just helps to hold steady and not wander away from the work piece. Its a bit hard to describe, it gives you better control over the location and movement of the gun.

A little practice and patience and most people can learn to lay down some pretty nice beads.

That's all from me.

Rob


----------



## DIYguy (Sep 18, 2008)

Hey Rob,

Nice job by a guy who obviously has a lot of experience. The points regarding wire feeding ring very true. I have a couple of small corrections...gas flow rate is actually measured in cubic feet per hour. Rob is right about the numbers, 30 is the low end. If you have air movement in your shop, you may need more. Most metering devices for bottles are called combination regulator/flowmeter and have a graduated scale for reference.

Rob is also correct regarding the importance of tip to work distance..this is another parameter that I didn't mention. The proper term is ESO meaning Electrical Stick Out. The distance from the contact tip to the work piece. The reason this is important to maintain is that the power supplies used are constant potential or voltage machines. This means the power supplies maintains a constant voltage which is important when wire welding to maintain a decent arc. What happens though, is that when you vary ESO you vary current. If you use an excessive ESO after qualifying a procedure with the correct ESO, you will have less current and the possibility of lack of penetration/fusion. ESO should be maintained to approx 1/2" with smaller (0.035" and under) dia. wires and 5/8" with larger (.045/.052). ESO is not dependant on gas flow rate though but what Rob does know is that excessive ESO also reduces gas coverage and can contribute to porosity. Of course there are mitigating factors that affect ESO ... not worth coving here.

Next blurb will be on GMAW modes of metal transfer... but one thing that was mentioned by someone was cutting back the nozzle. He was on to an important point. There are different modes of metal transfer and the one likely used by most EV and light material applications, is called Short Circuit Transfer or Short Arc. This method benefits by having a slight contact tip extention with respect to the sheilding nozzle. You can machine the nozzle if you like, but there are different nozzle configurations available for this purpose... at least for the higher end consumables.

Cheers.

Gary


----------



## Wirecutter (Jul 26, 2007)

Ok, I'll ante up. I'm not a pro welder, and I haven't become expert in all the various welding theory.

I started with a cheap Clarke 135A, 110V MIG welder. I wired up a high capacity 110v outlet and put a twist lock connector on the power cord. For two years, I practiced making boogers with little success. I took a welding class with my county's VoTech program in the evenings, and a couple of hours of class time with a pro really got me going. (I've heard you can teach yourself in a couple of years, or learn in hours with the help of a pro looking over your shoulder.)

It's possible to MIG without gas, and I've done it, but I like to work indoors in my basement. The fluxed filler wire makes a lot of smoke and I don't want to set off the smoke detectors. So I switched to tri-gas (He, CO2, Ar) mix. I have a little Ar-only bottle, and a larger tri-gas bottle. I've used this setup to build three electric gokarts from scratch, and it works great. IMHO, the welds are also cleaner with gas.

Last year, the cheap Clarke quit on my in the middle of a project. I picked up a Hobart 135A unit from my local Tractor Supply. Well, a while back, Hobart was bought by Miller, so there's a lot of "Miller content" in the new Hobart. It's a great welder and I'd do it again. If there are any systematic shortcomings of the Hobart, I'm not a good enough welder to notice.

So yeah, go with a Lincoln, Miller, or even Hobart if you can. They all seem pretty decent. OTOH, even if you go with "el-cheapo", get some practice in. Try to find someone who already welds to help you learn. I could have saved myself a couple of years if I'd done it that way.

-Mark


----------



## DIYguy (Sep 18, 2008)

Hey wire cutter.

You are brave to weld in the basement.  I take it you're not married? lol

The self-shielded flux core wires are very smokey. There are other cored wires that are not self-shielding and smoke is reduced significantly. You may wonder why one would use a cored wire with gas.. well, there are quite a few different reasons. One of the most common gas shielded cored wire, is called Metal Core. This wire allows you to weld on somewhat rusty/dirtier material. It bridges gaps well and can reach some pretty good deposition rates. There are many cored wires that have alloy additions for specialty applications also.

The tri-mix gas is really more suited to stainless steels, but you can get it set to weld mild steel ok too as you have obviously done. It generates a hotter arc and a more fluid puddle... this may actually help u to keep smoke generation to a minimum. Mostly though, it just costs u more money (when welding steel). I would just go with an Ar/CO2 mix. The more CO2 like 60/40 or 75/25, the deeper the penetration and more spatter. Less CO2, like 92/8, generates less spatter. Higher Ar % percentages also support spray arc transfer and better Pulse Arc transfer. 
75/25 is common, often called C25, I like 82/18 for many applications.

Gary


----------



## Wirecutter (Jul 26, 2007)

DIYguy said:


> Hey wire cutter.
> 
> You are brave to weld in the basement.  I take it you're not married? lol


Well, actually, I am. Should I be worried? In fairness, my basement is more like a shop and less like a living space. Sheetrock walls, painted concrete floor. If I plan on doing a *lot* of welding, I take it outside, provided the weather permits and there's little wind. I also learned not to do any grinding indoors - you just can't contain the dust and it gets _everywhere._



DIYguy said:


> The self-shielded flux core wires are very smokey.


Bechurass... 



DIYguy said:


> There are other cored wires that are not self-shielding and smoke is reduced significantly. You may wonder why one would use a cored wire with gas.. well, there are quite a few different reasons. One of the most common gas shielded cored wire, is called Metal Core. This wire allows you to weld on somewhat rusty/dirtier material. It bridges gaps well and can reach some pretty good deposition rates. There are many cored wires that have alloy additions for specialty applications also.


Yeah, thanks for that info. The more I learn about welding (or any number of other things, for that matter...) the more I find I didn't know, and I discover that a lot of smart people have come before me.



DIYguy said:


> The tri-mix gas is really more suited to stainless steels, but you can get it set to weld mild steel ok too as you have obviously done. It generates a hotter arc and a more fluid puddle... this may actually help u to keep smoke generation to a minimum. Mostly though, it just costs u more money (when welding steel). I would just go with an Ar/CO2 mix. The more CO2 like 60/40 or 75/25, the deeper the penetration and more spatter. Less CO2, like 92/8, generates less spatter. Higher Ar % percentages also support spray arc transfer and better Pulse Arc transfer.
> 75/25 is common, often called C25, I like 82/18 for many applications.


 I originally got tri-gas for exactly that. I know a guy that runs a sheet metal shop - I worked for him years ago. He does a lot of work in 304 stainless, and in a favor exchange, I was allowed to clean out his scrap bin. I've got hundreds of pounds of of the stuff, and I've always liked its weldability. 304 has been the medium by which I've got a good share of my welding practice. Put another way, if *I* can weld it, then it's what you'd call _easily welded_. It also lends itself to nice surface finish.

When I'm welding, I find that the "duty cycle" is pretty low. You know - I'll spend 30 minutes preparing mating surfaces, getting it positioned and clamped down, etc. Then after just a couple of minutes, the welding is done and I wait for it to cool down and prepare for the next thing. In the process, if I leave the area and return, the only real smell is the "ozone" smell from the arc, and it's very faint.

Anyway, when I finally "graduated" to a larger gas bottle, I elected to fill the big one with tri-gas. It does a nice job on everything I weld, and I don't need to fill it up very often. As you point out, that stuff ain't cheap. I'll probably eventually get another bottle with another mix when I start on a project that needs a different mix.

Thanks again for the info.

-Mark


----------



## DavidDymaxion (Dec 1, 2008)

*Re: More than just the welder.*

I have a Lincoln TIG, and love it. It costs more to buy, but I chose TIG as it is the choice of race car teams. TIG is supposed to be good for one-off kinds of things, and if the weld looks good generally it is good (unlike a MIG that can look good but not penetrate well). It takes alot of coordination to use both hands and your foot all at the same time.

Anyway, a couple of suggestions for support equipment:

*Fume ventilation*. I bought a HEPA air filter from a thrift store. It pipes to the outside. I have a 6 inch foil hose that hooks to it, and gently sucks away the fumes. Other welders I know don't seem to have this problem, but several times I got a headache before I made this. A window fan will blow the shielding gas away from your weld, so it doesn't work as well.

*Cutting wheel, wire wheel, etc*. Probably stating the obvious here, but there will be times you need to cut away your mistakes. You need tools to cut the metal and remove rust, too. You also need to strip coatings from the car or other metal before welding, these coatings can be toxic when welded!

*Tungsten sharpener (for TIG)*. It's hard to grind an accurate tip on a TIG electrode freehand.


slurryguy said:


> ... I'm interested in the equipment required _beyond the welder itself_. How much should I budget for other items? ...


----------



## JSRacer (Jun 22, 2008)

Using a drill motor and a bench grinder with a fine stone is the best way I've found to sharpen tungsten. Those tungsten sharpeners can be salty!


----------



## DIYguy (Sep 18, 2008)

JSRacer said:


> Using a drill motor and a bench grinder with a fine stone is the best way I've found to sharpen tungsten. Those tungsten sharpeners can be salty!


It's a good tip, Racer. 
All, take your cordless and put the tungsten in it..hold it on the side of a fine grinding wheel when spinning. After you are finished and get a good point on it, you should now take it to the face of the grinding wheel standing fairly upright and just touch the surface as you spin it. The idea here is to put longitutinal grind lines onto the surface of the taper.. this helps to channel the current and keep a nice column arc. It's a fine point, ...but none the less often used.

Cheers....


----------



## RKM (Jun 9, 2008)

DIYguy said:


> It's a good tip, Racer.
> The idea here is to put longitutinal grind lines onto the surface of the taper.. this helps to channel the current and keep a nice column arc. It's a fine point, ...but none the less often used.
> 
> Cheers....


 
I've been given this advice as well, helps keep a sharp focus to the arc point (so I'm told). I suspect only the really fussy actually do this though.

Rob


----------



## DavidDymaxion (Dec 1, 2008)

That's how I sharpen my TIG electrodes. I finish with a few swipes by hand with a fine sandpaper to keep the grooves axial.


RKM said:


> I've been given this advice as well, helps keep a sharp focus to the arc point (so I'm told). I suspect only the really fussy actually do this though.
> 
> Rob


----------



## Wirecutter (Jul 26, 2007)

RKM said:


> A full face shield helmet is essential. Even though I know better, I'll occassionally make a few tack welds with the shield up, eyes closed. There is very sensitive skin just above the eye lid and below the brow that can get a bad UV burn very quickly ....<snip>
> 
> Another tip to produce nice smooth welds is to use both hands. I hold the gun in my right hand and use my left (forearm or hand) as a brace against the work and my right hand. It just helps to hold steady and not wander away from the work piece. Its a bit hard to describe, it gives you better control over the location and movement of the gun.
> 
> A little practice and patience and most people can learn to lay down some pretty nice beads.


 My understanding is that goggles are sufficient only with (some kinds of?) torch welding. Any kind of electrical arc welding (stick, TIG, MIG) produces a lot of bad UV. I learned this using the "brace your arm" method mentioned by RKM. My arm was bare and directly exposed to the arc about 1 foot away _for less than 30 seconds_. Around that time, I was commuting due South in the morning and due North in the evening. That meant that the sun was beaming in my car window during my commute both in the morning and in the evening. I thought the burn I had was "trucker's tan" until I noticed that it stopped at the glove line, and it hurt more than the usual pink sunburn. 

My welding instructor said that welders suffer more then their share of skin cancer and similar ills. Hmm, what's up with that? Ever see that show Monster Garage? Notice how, when he welded, Jessie James always wore long sleeve shirts buttoned at the sleeves and all the way up to the collar? Ok, it might have been to keep his tatoos from fading, but he's not the only welder I've seen that does that, even in uncomfortably hot weather. Bottom line is that you don't want to expose bare skin to a welding arc.

Finally, 
1. It sucks having hot slag fall into your shoe.
2. I don't dance well. 

Don't ask me how I know. 

-Mark


----------



## DavidDymaxion (Dec 1, 2008)

As long as we are on safety tips: TIG is alot brighter than MIG, you have to be sure to get a TIG helmet, as MIG helmets don't get dark enough.

I accidentally exposed some wrist skin when TIG welding. It couldn't have been more than 2 minutes of exposure. The sunburn felt like it went deep into my arm and hurt for more than a week. I don't think cotton is enough protection, so I wear leather. I also cut the sleeves off an old leather jacket, for gauntlets for extra protection for my wrists as my jacket tended to pull back and expose them.



Wirecutter said:


> My understanding is that goggles are sufficient only with (some kinds of?) torch welding. Any kind of electrical arc welding (stick, TIG, MIG) produces a lot of bad UV. I learned this using the "brace your arm" method mentioned by RKM. My arm was bare and directly exposed to the arc about 1 foot away _for less than 30 seconds_. Around that time, I was commuting due South in the morning and due North in the evening. That meant that the sun was beaming in my car window during my commute both in the morning and in the evening. I thought the burn I had was "trucker's tan" until I noticed that it stopped at the glove line, and it hurt more than the usual pink sunburn.
> 
> My welding instructor said that welders suffer more then their share of skin cancer and similar ills. Hmm, what's up with that? Ever see that show Monster Garage? Notice how, when he welded, Jessie James always wore long sleeve shirts buttoned at the sleeves and all the way up to the collar? Ok, it might have been to keep his tatoos from fading, but he's not the only welder I've seen that does that, even in uncomfortably hot weather. Bottom line is that you don't want to expose bare skin to a welding arc.
> 
> ...


----------



## DIYguy (Sep 18, 2008)

DavidDymaxion said:


> As long as we are on safety tips: TIG is alot brighter than MIG, you have to be sure to get a TIG helmet, as MIG helmets don't get dark enough.
> quote]
> 
> Hey David, you are right to be concerned about UV exposure. Just to be clear, it's best not to rate lens needs by process alone. GTAW (TIG) at 60 amps is no where near as brilliant as GMAW (MIG) spray arc transfer at 500 amps. It needs to be judged on the process. Additionally, there is no need to change the helmet (normally). With conventional lenses, (2x4 and 4x4) there is a full range of shades. Be careful though with the auto darkening lenses...they are do not all meet all requirements. Many of the cheaper ones have only one shade.
> ...


----------



## atzi (Jun 26, 2008)

#1 Choice
MIG welder Millermatic 130 with Argon gas. 120VAC









Next choice stick welder Lincoln 240VAC


----------

