# Please help with series hybrid controller



## jimberry3 (May 11, 2009)

Hello,

My name is Jim, I own and operate Ethos Electric Vehicles (and motorcycles). A little lead in to let you know why this request, my sons are going to embark on an around the world expedition next June on electric motorcycles of our own design and construction to set the Guinness record (I will post pics of the bikes when complete on our motorcycle website). Ok, our support vehicle will be a 35' class C design motor home, We are building it from the ground up. I was contemplating two options both utilizing a Ford econoline cab. Option one is: a 4wd configuration with a dually rear axle and one front axle with an A/C motor on each axle (50 kw nominal) and a diesel genset driving a battery bank driving motors, you know the drill. Downside is I can only guesstimate drag coefficient and impact on motors and sizing of genset.
Option two and more sensible: Same 4wd set up, but utilizing a Ford 460 built for torque and mileage and utilizing a 50 kw A/C motor in series with the motor / automatic transmission / transfer case. A/C because of the vehicle weight we need to move and I don't want to melt brushes on a DC all the time, and it is sealed as they will be in adverse weather / road conditions. 
My problem is that I need a controller to allow use of the motor assist from 0 to say 20 mph working in rhythm with engine rpm and coming into play in a passing gear situation, and allow regen to charge the batteries which will be isolated from other systems. Now here is my dilemma, I am just not smart enough to design such a thing. I can put tab A into slot A and modify and improve the tabs and slots, but this here is out of my bailiwick. Can any of you great minds out there help me. I would love to also make the end product an open source enterprise if the designer agrees.


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

jimberry3 said:


> Hello,
> 
> My name is Jim, I own and operate Ethos Electric Vehicles (and motorcycles). A little lead in to let you know why this request, my sons are going to embark on an around the world expedition next June on electric motorcycles of our own design and construction to set the Guinness record (I will post pics of the bikes when complete on our motorcycle website). Ok, our support vehicle will be a 35' class C design motor home, We are building it from the ground up. I was contemplating two options both utilizing a Ford econoline cab. Option one is: a 4wd configuration with a dually rear axle and one front axle with an A/C motor on each axle (50 kw nominal) and a diesel genset driving a battery bank driving motors, you know the drill. Downside is I can only guesstimate drag coefficient and impact on motors and sizing of genset.
> Option two and more sensible: Same 4wd set up, but utilizing a Ford 460 built for torque and mileage and utilizing a 50 kw A/C motor in series with the motor / automatic transmission / transfer case. A/C because of the vehicle weight we need to move and I don't want to melt brushes on a DC all the time, and it is sealed as they will be in adverse weather / road conditions.
> My problem is that I need a controller to allow use of the motor assist from 0 to say 20 mph working in rhythm with engine rpm and coming into play in a passing gear situation, and allow regen to charge the batteries which will be isolated from other systems. Now here is my dilemma, I am just not smart enough to design such a thing. I can put tab A into slot A and modify and improve the tabs and slots, but this here is out of my bailiwick. Can any of you great minds out there help me. I would love to also make the end product an open source enterprise if the designer agrees.


Hi jim,

What you describe sounds like a parallel hybrid not series as the title to the thread indicates.

And I'd say you do not have the time (before next June) to design and build a hybrid motorhome propulsion system let alone an AC motor controller.

But good luck with your project,

major


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## jimberry3 (May 11, 2009)

Major,

Thank you for taking the time to point this out, but I am wanting the A/C motor to be in series with the gas engine not parallel with it. I am mounting the motor right off of the tail shaft into the transfer case. So take that into consideration when you define parallel, maybe I have the definitions wrong in my mind at this time but those out there please correct me if I do. You make the statement that I do not have the time to do this, but you did not ask me where I was in relation to the project, so let me tell you where I am. The frame is complete, the engine is built, the axles and transfer case is rebuilt and are cryogenically treated, The fuel (2) water, gray waste and black waste are completed, the walls are fiber-glassed, the solar cells for the roof and the solar water heating panel for the roof are complete, the only things left prior to construction are the hybrid drive system. So with all due respect, please do not tell me what I have or have not got time for. You have no idea the resources, time and ability we have to put towards this project. And for those out there that are not offering constructive advice please don't reply. The world is way to full of people that say you cannot do something, that is one of the reasons that we as a world are in the mess we are in environmentally, fiscally and in numerous other ways.


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

jimberry3 said:


> Major,
> 
> Thank you for taking the time to point this out, but I am wanting the A/C motor to be in series with the gas engine not parallel with it. I am mounting the motor right off of the tail shaft into the transfer case. So take that into consideration when you define parallel, maybe I have the definitions wrong in my mind at this time but those out there please correct me if I do.


It is common terminology with hybrid vehicles to describe the power train configuration as parallel or series. In the series hybrid, all motive power is delivered to the road via the electric propulsion motor only and the engine drives a generator supplying electric power to the motor. In the parallel hybrid, both the engine and electric motor have a mechanical path to deliver power to the road. That mechanical path can be common between the engine and motor as you describe. You describe a parallel hybrid.

Regards,

major


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## Ziggythewiz (May 16, 2010)

A series hybrid uses a generator to charge batteries which drive an electric motor.

A parallel hybrid uses an engine to drive the wheels as well as a generator to power the batteries for the electric motor which splits the driving work with the gas engine.

No one's saying you can't do anything you want, but it might take longer than you've planned for to find all the help you need to get it done.

I won't bother to question your environmental, fiscal, or other intentions in this undertaking.


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

Ziggythewiz said:


> A series hybrid uses a generator to charge batteries which drive an electric motor.
> 
> A parallel hybrid uses an engine to drive the wheels as well as a generator to power the batteries for the electric motor which splits the driving work with the gas engine.


The parallel hybrid does not necessarily need the generator. I pasted the basic diagram in here. If it doesn't stick, it can be found at http://www.schleeter.com/AFV-cars.htm


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## jimberry3 (May 11, 2009)

Major,

Thank you I was referring only to the mounting of the motor not to the electrical path as being in series, I can see now how my lack of a clear definition has caused the uproar, I stand corrected and thank you all. So in essence from an electrical standpoint it is a parallel hybrid with the motor mounted in series with the drivetrain. The mechanical engineering is all complete and ready to bolt (and weld) in, all I need is a controller and I know of no one that has a controller available, so that is what I need help with. If all fails I will try and reprogram an existing controller to match rpm's from the ice as much as possible for a half assed system, but I do so hate to do less than a professional job.


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

jimberry3 said:


> Major,
> 
> Thank you I was referring only to the mounting of the motor not to the electrical path as being in series, I can see now how my lack of a clear definition has caused the uproar, I stand corrected and thank you all. So in essence from an electrical standpoint it is a parallel hybrid with the motor mounted in series with the drivetrain. The mechanical engineering is all complete and ready to bolt (and weld) in, all I need is a controller and I know of no one that has a controller available, so that is what I need help with. If all fails I will try and reprogram an existing controller to match rpm's from the ice as much as possible for a half assed system, but I do so hate to do less than a professional job.


What motor is it? What existing controller? My experience is you don't "match rpm's", you run in four quadrant torque control.


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## PStechPaul (May 1, 2012)

As I understand it then, the electric motor will have a shaft at both ends and the ICE will drive one and the rest of the drive train will be connected to the other. Thus the electric motor just adds to the torque of the ICE. I don't see any problem with the electrical implementation, as you only need to adjust the motor drive until it is contributing positive torque which will add to that supplied by the ICE. 

But the mechanical issues seem more significant. If you connect the electric motor directly to the shaft of the ICE, it will create a very long assembly which will need careful support to maintain alignment. And the clutch, torque converter, and transmission will need to bolted onto the electric motor. Probably not a good idea. 

You could have the clutch and/or torque converter on the ICE, and then connect that to the electric motor. A flexible coupling might be needed. Then the other end of the electric motor would connect to the transmission and the rest of the power train. Shifting might require some thought for coordination and it would require special adapters that allow the clutch/hydraulic pump to be separated from the gears and their shift mechanisms.

Also, the electric motor shaft and bearings would need to be able to handle the full torque of the combined system, so either an oversize motor or a special design might be needed. 

Ideally, perhaps, you could use a dual planetary drive which essentially has two input shafts and one output shaft, so power can be applied from either one or both. This is essentially a differential connected in reverse, as with a motor on each axle and the output on the driveshaft. Or perhaps a belt, chain, or gear drive with a separate clutch could be implemented on the output shaft of the clutch. But that's not what you wanted... 

Here is a motor integrated parallel hybrid transmission and other hybrid drivetrains: 
http://escholarship.org/uc/item/1nm1408v#page-1
http://kahuna.sdsu.edu/~hev/transmis.html
http://www.ipd.anl.gov/anlpubs/2002/08/44035.pdf

I'm not really a mechanical engineer, but it seems that your project will be more of a mechanical chalenge than one of the electronics and the controller. So please provide your detailed conceptual drawings and specifications of the mechanical components, and the rest should be, relatively, a "snap".


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## jimberry3 (May 11, 2009)

Paul,

At last a positive, it can be done reply, thank you. I was speaking with George Hamstra at netgain and warfield motors about this. Netgain had brought out the EMIS system in the same configuration just utilizing a DC motor. Netgain LLC has decided to do away with the program due to lack of interest, etc. and George is legally bound not to give much away. The concept is engine > transmission > electric motor > transfer case > axles. This way we drive the axles at the same speed and do not tear up the transfer case by applying to much torque and speed to one axle and not the other.
Netgain is doing a 50 kw nominal / 90kw peak air cooled AC motor with double bearings and grease fittings for us and we have more than enough room for the system under the vehicle. I just lack the electrical engineering ability and the programming ability to go the next step. Our next step if no one was wanting to take the challenge was to see if we could get Curtis to work with us as they seemed slightly interested. 
I think the big obstacle to my simplistic mind is to add positive torque just above the ice rpm without overdriving the ice engine because that can screw the ecu for the ice into shooting out false codes for nonexistant problems. BTW we are using a haltech ecu and a C-6 so there is no transmission electronics to worry about


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## PStechPaul (May 1, 2012)

I wouldn't worry too much about overdriving the ICE because it's essentially the same as compression braking down a steep downhill. In that case of course you might want to disconnect the ICE and use regeneration. But also maybe disconnect the ICE whenever it's running outside of its most efficient range of operation.

The problem with connecting the motor to the driveshaft is that it will not benefit from torque multiplication through the tranny, so low speed performance will suffer, or you'll need a much larger motor.


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## jimberry3 (May 11, 2009)

Ziggy,

My environmental reason for doing this is most important because I deeply believe in alternative energies and in this case all electric is not feasible for the size and weight of vehicle in conjunction with the terrain that will be crossed. So our next step on the list is hybrid, and since they will be in the boonies quite a bit, the KISS principle applies as much as possible hence this configuration.
Fiscally, this is the least expensive of the options. Money spent thus far, doing everything in our shop minus the ICE rebuild is 21k rounded up not including labor (this is also pricing in the free components our sponsors are providing) and we estimate another 15k. 
Our other intentions for this is just to compliment the electric motorcycle side of the equation. And last but certainly not least our quest to do this correctly is driven by the fact that once we are done with the trip, we bring everything up to par and the vehicle is raffled off with the proceeds going to help feed hungry children.

So please help with positive input.


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## frodus (Apr 12, 2008)

It was asked before....

What motor?
What existing controller?


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## Ziggythewiz (May 16, 2010)

Along with the KISS principle, I don't think you need any special controller. The simplest approach would probably be to use a microcontroller to read the throttle input and the RPMs from the ECU and determine the appropriate output to request from the motor controller.

Have you watched much EVTV? Jack's had lots of fun playing with ECUs and lookup tables.


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## jimberry3 (May 11, 2009)

Paul, I do need to worry about overdriving the ICE as it will go into a compression braking type of mode and the computer will try and fight it sending the injectors and timing into overdrive trying to fight that therefore making it read false parameters


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## jimberry3 (May 11, 2009)

Frodus, yes, it was asked before and I am still working on receiving manufacturing quotes, I have it narrowed down, but nothing that I can quote you a standard part number for as it will most likely be a custom motor due to heavier bearings etc. As to the controller it can be one of any AC controllers on the market. I apologize for not making it clear that existing did not mean one I had in my hands at the moment. I meant one already on the market that I can find that may fit our application and that I may be able to reprogram


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## jimberry3 (May 11, 2009)

Thank you for your input gentlemen, I have actually finished my research and tried a reprogramming on an existing controller that *I DO* have in my possession on a static AC motor with our haltech and have been able to cycle the motor up and down the spectrum. So we are probably just a few days , a few hundred lines of code (thank gosh it is actually not writing the actual code but instead almost plug and play) and a couple hundred miles from having this working properly


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