# [EVDL] hub motor/axial flux pancake generator/vegoil hybrid



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

I believe the otherpower guys used pretty much the same alternator on
their old steam engine as they build for their 17 or 20 foot wind
turbines. It's just a matter of getting the right RPM design, then it
doesn't matter what the source of motive power is to drive it. The
higher RPM of the engine is the biggest issue, but perhaps a few of
the higher rpm ones for smaller turbines would work, instead of one
really big low RPM one.

Z



> Greg <[email protected]> wrote:
> > Hi guys,
> >
> > I'm a vegoil guy and hoping to do a small project on a motorcycle with a
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

No problem, New Generation Motors makes exactly the hub motor you're
looking for.
http://www.ngmcorp.com/prod_motorcontrollers.htm
Last time I checked the price ran around $25,000, but that was a few years
ago so it's probably gone up a bit since then.

For the generator you'd want something that spins a bit fast. Sounds like
a Lynch motor might be what you're looking for. It's a little less
powerful that your goals(about 6kw continuous), but aught to be fine for a
motorcycle. They run about $1800-$2000.
http://www.evparts.com/prod-MT5115.htm

Good luck, keep us posted.

> Hi guys,
>
> I'm a vegoil guy and hoping to do a small project on a motorcycle with a
> stationary engine running on vegoil, with (if this would work) some sort
> of
> pancake radial flywheel generator, permanent magnet, and hoping to find
> somewhere I can buy in a hub motor (again Neodymium non-geared efficient
> type) for the wheel(s).
>
> The engine would be 10-30hp depending on type, so lets say 15hp and that
> equates to around 10kw constant. So I'd be looking at a 10kw hub motor.
>
> I'm looking for 90-95% efficiency on both the generator and hub motor,
> hoping for 90% overall which with the engine running at constant speed (I
> presume I can use an efficient PWM motor controller) should give me a
> better
> overall efficiency than using a gearbox, plus the added advantage of no
> gearing needs and flexibility of mounting the engine.
>
> It also allows me to hopefully one day get regenerative braking from an
> ultracap bank, if that becomes possible/worthwhile!
>
> So guys - anywhere I can learn about buying/making a generator for my
> diesel
> engine and where can I get a hub motor? Any links appreciated. I know
> there
> are people that build very good and efficient generators from neo magnets
> for wind turbines, but I can't find anything for engines. Also this engine
> runs at 3,000rpm, not a few hundred like a wind turbine.
>
> Greg.
> PS I can use two hub motors, front and rear, if that makes anything
> easier.
>
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

I think most people would suggest that you not do it. This will not give you 
a better overall efficiency. Hubmotors are usually less efficient than 
geared motors, and I think you will have a very hard time finding 90 - 95% 
efficient motors and generators. I suggest directly connecting the vegoil 
engine. Do you still want to do this?

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Greg" <[email protected]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, April 11, 2008 9:31 AM
Subject: [EVDL] hub motor/axial flux pancake generator/vegoil hybrid


> Hi guys,
>
> I'm a vegoil guy and hoping to do a small project on a motorcycle with a
> stationary engine running on vegoil, with (if this would work) some sort 
> of
> pancake radial flywheel generator, permanent magnet, and hoping to find
> somewhere I can buy in a hub motor (again Neodymium non-geared efficient
> type) for the wheel(s).
>
> The engine would be 10-30hp depending on type, so lets say 15hp and that
> equates to around 10kw constant. So I'd be looking at a 10kw hub motor.
>
> I'm looking for 90-95% efficiency on both the generator and hub motor,
> hoping for 90% overall which with the engine running at constant speed (I
> presume I can use an efficient PWM motor controller) should give me a 
> better
> overall efficiency than using a gearbox, plus the added advantage of no
> gearing needs and flexibility of mounting the engine.
>
> It also allows me to hopefully one day get regenerative braking from an
> ultracap bank, if that becomes possible/worthwhile!
>
> So guys - anywhere I can learn about buying/making a generator for my 
> diesel
> engine and where can I get a hub motor? Any links appreciated. I know 
> there
> are people that build very good and efficient generators from neo magnets
> for wind turbines, but I can't find anything for engines. Also this engine
> runs at 3,000rpm, not a few hundred like a wind turbine.
>
> Greg.
> PS I can use two hub motors, front and rear, if that makes anything 
> easier.
>
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev 

_______________________________________________
For subscription options, see
http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Dmitri wrote:
> > I think most people would suggest that you not do it. This will not
> > give you a better overall efficiency. Hubmotors are usually less
> > efficient than geared motors, and I think you will have a very hard
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Well if it's an unworkable idea, I agree I'd be far better off trying to fit
a cvt belt drive which is the most efficient/easiest combo if this doesn't
work. May I ask why a hub motor is less efficient, surely it's a motor -
but without the added drag of gears? I'm not talking about will I get
enough torque or anything like that, purely talking about the electrical to
mechanical torque efficiency.

Also.... How come all the trains went diesel electric on the grounds of
efficiency, over and above the geared and hydraulic which didn't do as well?

I see lots of pancake motors on the net from R&D or patent or some wind
generator that are up in the 98% region, it's a shame I can't make something
up with such a motor/generator. Part of the reason is that the flexibility
of mounting the engine is useful as one application I can think of you
couldn't mount the engine in a place where you could get a sensible drive to
the wheel, thus an electric drive would give me some freedom there.

Ah well.

Greg.


-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf
Of Dmitri
Sent: 11 April 2008 18:06
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] hub motor/axial flux pancake generator/vegoil hybrid

I think most people would suggest that you not do it. This will not give you

a better overall efficiency. Hubmotors are usually less efficient than 
geared motors, and I think you will have a very hard time finding 90 - 95% 
efficient motors and generators. I suggest directly connecting the vegoil 
engine. Do you still want to do this?

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Greg" <[email protected]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, April 11, 2008 9:31 AM
Subject: [EVDL] hub motor/axial flux pancake generator/vegoil hybrid


> Hi guys,
>
> I'm a vegoil guy and hoping to do a small project on a motorcycle with a
> stationary engine running on vegoil, with (if this would work) some sort 
> of
> pancake radial flywheel generator, permanent magnet, and hoping to find
> somewhere I can buy in a hub motor (again Neodymium non-geared efficient
> type) for the wheel(s).
>
> The engine would be 10-30hp depending on type, so lets say 15hp and that
> equates to around 10kw constant. So I'd be looking at a 10kw hub motor.
>
> I'm looking for 90-95% efficiency on both the generator and hub motor,
> hoping for 90% overall which with the engine running at constant speed (I
> presume I can use an efficient PWM motor controller) should give me a 
> better
> overall efficiency than using a gearbox, plus the added advantage of no
> gearing needs and flexibility of mounting the engine.
>
> It also allows me to hopefully one day get regenerative braking from an
> ultracap bank, if that becomes possible/worthwhile!
>
> So guys - anywhere I can learn about buying/making a generator for my 
> diesel
> engine and where can I get a hub motor? Any links appreciated. I know 
> there
> are people that build very good and efficient generators from neo magnets
> for wind turbines, but I can't find anything for engines. Also this engine
> runs at 3,000rpm, not a few hundred like a wind turbine.
>
> Greg.
> PS I can use two hub motors, front and rear, if that makes anything 
> easier.
>
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev 

_______________________________________________
For subscription options, see
http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev

_______________________________________________
For subscription options, see
http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> --- Greg <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> > Well if it's an unworkable idea,
> 
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Greg <[email protected]> wrote:
> > Also.... How come all the trains went diesel electric on the grounds of
> > efficiency, over and above the geared and hydraulic which didn't do as well?
> 
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

It's not necessarily less efficient, but to create more torque that a hub 
motor needs, you create a bigger motor or put more current through it. 
Current creates heating. And, you can't choose to run it in the most optimal 
RPM range with a certain gear ratio.
But then a hub motor can have internal gears too. Vectrix used some sort of 
a "hub motor" with planetary gears: 
http://www.vectrix.com/corporate/US/tech-specs.php Surely there is a good 
reason they chose to use gears, right?




----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Greg" <[email protected]>
To: "'Electric Vehicle Discussion List'" <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, April 18, 2008 5:21 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] hub motor/axial flux pancake generator/vegoil hybrid


> Well if it's an unworkable idea, I agree I'd be far better off trying to 
> fit
> a cvt belt drive which is the most efficient/easiest combo if this doesn't
> work. May I ask why a hub motor is less efficient, surely it's a motor -
> but without the added drag of gears? I'm not talking about will I get
> enough torque or anything like that, purely talking about the electrical 
> to
> mechanical torque efficiency.
>

_______________________________________________
For subscription options, see
http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Greg wrote:
> > May I ask why a hub motor is less efficient?
> 
> A "square" motor which has about the same length and diameter tends to
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

You probably want to go fast on your new motorcycle and keep up with traffic.
Most hub motors are brushed and too small to put out 10kW. For generating
energy you can use kelly controller's regen brushless controller, which will
slow you down without even using mechanical brakes. A couple years ago I
bought a crystalyte 5303 brushless hub motor for $350. I wrecked it after a
few months and bent the rim, but hub motor is fine. It would go 44-45mph on
level ground and no breeze from a 72V lead acid battery pack running at
about 78V until the voltage dropped. Tire circumference was 26 inches. It
consumed 35 amps at 72V. The controller was limited to 35amps. Battery pack
weighed 80lbs. I tried doubling it 160lbs, but it blew 40 amp fuse after
just a ,mile everytime. 
These hub motors can take up to 108V, but such a controller can not be
bought. 

This is what I suggest you do. Obtain two crystalyte 5302 motors. Now you
will need two brushless controllers. Kelly controllers will work. I forgot
which one is sinusoidal or trapezoidal waveforms. I believe one throttle can
control both controllers. You will need to have both motorcycle rims spoked
to the hub motor. Both rims should be same circumference. Drilling 36 holes
shouldn't be that bad and then you just need custom length spokes which can
be found. The motor comes with sprockets on it, but maybe they won't get in
the way. You should be able to get up to 60mph easily using two 5302 because
they are geared to hit 40mph at 48V and enough amps. 

http://www.poweridestore.com/Brushless-Motors/Series-5-Motors/Rear-X-5302-Hub-Motor

Or you could use a PMG-132, etc. 

http://www.evalbum.com/1422




> greg1231 wrote:
> >
> > Hi guys,
> >
> ...


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