# [EVDL] Fw: Fast Charging



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

There is already plugs, connectors and receptacles that are design as a dead 
front type and only are activated only after the plug, connector and plug is 
fully inserter with a overlapping shield.

These types of receptacles are require by other NEC articles for 
installations that may require arc proofing and self handling.

We install many of these type of receptacles ranging from 120 vac 20 amp to 
480 vac at 200 amp. They are normally install for portable equipment that 
prevents arcing.

In some of the simple plugs and connectors that range from 20 to 50 amp cost 
about $100.00, 50 to 100 amp units are about $200.00.
These types have a contact switch built into the receptacle which is 
activated by a center prong in the plug after it's inserted into the 
receptacle. The very large 200 amp units have additional pins that uses a 
isolated low voltage current to activated a magnetic contactor and/or power 
circuit breaker back in a service room.

These 200 amp receptacle rated at either 240 or 480 volt cost us about 
$15000.00 for a factory pre-assembly unit from the Power Anderson Company. 
We just purchase the 200 amp nylon receptacle insert only from them which 
cost us about $200.00.

We than use a receptacle enclosure from the Crouse Hinds company, equipment 
enclosure from the Hoffman company, a size 4 magnetic contactor from GE, 
Westinghouse or the Square D company, a glass plug in 48 vac control relay, 
a 240/480-48 machine tool transformer, a chassis mounted 10 amp circuit 
breaker, a 225 amp 3 pole 600 vac rated circuit breaker, and a remote 
circuit breaker operator.

The 200 amp power plug which can be up to 50 feet long an 2 inches in 
diameter is a 4 conductor 4/0 cable with two 6 awg control wires cost us 
about $5000.00 from Power Anderson.

We than have to assembly and install the unit which normally cost us about 
$10000.00 to do.

This type of units would be a service station type of unit that could be in 
the same atmosphere of the gasoline dispensing units, but must be at least 
20 foot from and the connection must be at least 18 inches above grade.

For the 20 to 50 amp units with the built in interlock and dead front design 
would be doable for now.

Roland




----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Frank John" <[email protected]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Saturday, February 23, 2008 1:43 PM
Subject: [EVDL] Fw: Fast Charging


> Has anyone ever contacted John Wiles (NEC code guy) about getting this 
> changed?
>
>
> <No, NEC Article 625 calls for protecting "any part made live" in the
> EV charging station's plug or socket from being touchable. This means
> that any part that could carry current be inaccessible to the human
> touch, even if they cannot be powered when touchable. The regulation
> singles out EV charging stations. This applies to charging stations
> above 120v in the USA.>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> 
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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Roland Wiench wrote:
> 
> > There is already plugs, connectors and receptacles that are
> > design as a dead front type and only are activated only after
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Hi Roger, all,
> Anyone thinking of trying to get a 240V outlet installed for charging an EV (I'm not speaking here of the welder outlet you need in the garage, but an outlet installed specifically for plugging in an EV, like in the parking stall at work or the mall where a public welder outlet is going to be a tough sell ;^) would be well advised to read Art. 625 carefully. Not only do you need to use a connector system that is not used for any other purpose, but you need to include adequate forced ventilation, and an interlock between the vehicle and charge point to ensure power is turned on only after the connector system is mated, and the connector system on the shore side must include provisions to de-energise the power conductors if the cable between it and the vehicle are subjected to excessive strain, etc.
> 
If you label the outlet in the parking lot for both EVs and RVs, then is 
it no longer covered by 625?

Thanks,
Cory Cross

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Cory Cross writes:
> 
> If you label the outlet in the parking lot for both EVs and RVs, then is 
> it no longer covered by 625?

Cory,

It's my understanding that Article 625 applies if an outlet is labeled as
being for EV use.

Ralph

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Then label it for RV use only. Or label it for electric range use, or don't
label at all except for 240VAC 30A or 50A.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On
> Behalf Of Ralph Merwin
> Sent: Saturday, February 23, 2008 7:56 PM
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Fw: Fast Charging
> 
> Cory Cross writes:
> >
> > If you label the outlet in the parking lot for both EVs and RVs, then is
> > it no longer covered by 625?
> 
> Cory,
> 
> It's my understanding that Article 625 applies if an outlet is labeled as
> being for EV use.
> 
> Ralph
> 
> _______________________________________________
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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Mike Willmon" <[email protected]>
To: "'Electric Vehicle Discussion List'" <[email protected]>
Sent: Sunday, February 24, 2008 12:03 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Fw: Fast Charging


> Then label it for RV use only. Or label it for electric range use, or 
> don't
> label at all except for 240VAC 30A or 50A.


Hi EVerybody;

The old charger standards, again? Just give us, the EV community scads 
of 120 volt outside outlets, AND RV 240's for hy power charging. Simple, 
Hell! Campgrounds have used 240 Volts for years, never heard of Granny 
getting fried plugging in her Win -A -Bagel, at the campground? You just 
PROVIDE the Plug, we'll figure it out. This "625" thing should be dumped, 
like Hillery and Billery, in the trashcan of History!I have sniffed out 
lottsa 120 volt outside outlets over the years. When ya drive an EV you just 
get in the habit of looking. Sorta like a lite plane pilot keeps a eye on 
where to land it, IF the engine craps out.

Pluggin' Along

Bob
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On
>> Behalf Of Ralph Merwin
>> Sent: Saturday, February 23, 2008 7:56 PM
>> To: [email protected]
>> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Fw: Fast Charging
>>
>> Cory Cross writes:
>> >
>> > If you label the outlet in the parking lot for both EVs and RVs, then 
>> > is
>> > it no longer covered by 625?
>>
>> Cory,
>>
>> It's my understanding that Article 625 applies if an outlet is labeled as
>> being for EV use.
>>
>> Ralph
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> For subscription options, see
>> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>
> _______________________________________________
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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Mike Willmon writes:
> 
> Then label it for RV use only. Or label it for electric range use, or don't
> label at all except for 240VAC 30A or 50A.

Sure, this may work. Note that you can't put up a sign reserving the
near-by parking spot for EV charging. Also, if this is a business, they
cannot get a tax credit for installing an EV charging station.

Ralph

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Technically, you can just put a sign "EV parking only". Nothing
about *charging*. So you're off the hook as far as NEC, but this
will be convenient coincidence that next to the EV parking spot
there happen to be generic 240V 50A outlet...

Who can prevent parked EVer from plugging in then?

Victor



> Ralph Merwin wrote:
> > Mike Willmon writes:
> >> Then label it for RV use only. Or label it for electric range use, or don't
> >> label at all except for 240VAC 30A or 50A.
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Greetings all.

This is my first post to this list, and I'm still on a fairly steep learning
curve, so please bear with me. 

This line of posts (and similar ones from the archives) have me curious, and
I finally have to ask what may be a stupid question. I keep seeing people
talk about charging outlets at workplaces, or "opportunity charging" at
various types of locations away from their home base. I'm trying to
understand the whole life-cycle model for the typical EV in daily use, and
this seems to be a common theme. Please don't take offense, but how are
people paying for this power? 

Clearly the amps aren't free. Are the various workplaces providing this as
a perk? I assume it is being done with the knowledge/consent of the owner
of the outlet? 

Obviously if there was a commercial infrastructure of charging stations,
you'd have to first insert your credit/debit card to turn on the juice.
I've actually spoken to a few business owners in my area about offering this
kind of outlet for employees, and almost uniformly they've asked how it
could be tracked, so that they could charge the cost back to the employee.

Maybe I just live in the wrong place??? 


Jeff Andre'
Chapel Hill, NC
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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Jeff Andre wrote:
> > I finally have to ask what may be a stupid question. I keep seeing people
> > talk about charging outlets at workplaces, or "opportunity charging" at
> > various types of locations away from their home base. I'm trying to
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

>"opportunity charging" at
<snip>
> Please don't take offense, but how are
> people paying for this power?
>
> Clearly the amps aren't free.

Not free, but dirt cheap.

The cost of the power at a restaurant is less than a penny.

Charging for 8 hours at work might come out to 10 cents or so, about the
same amount as running one of those mini refrigerators for a day.

I've heard that some companies set up charging ports that are metered, but
it generally costs more to install and administer something like that than
the electricity costs.

So generally the companies either do it for free or refuse because "it
wouldn't be fair to give one of our employees 10 cents worth of
electricity a day" Why that could add up to $25 a year.

FWIW, I worked at a place once that wouldn't let me charge. They wouldn't
let me pay for it either because the administration costs would exceed the
power costs (they were buying power in bulk so it would have cost them
about $10 a year) I offered to pay $50 a year into the picnic fund, no
go.
I also pointed out that the same company, at a different location, was
paying for public transportation for their employees to reduce the parking
problem, still no go.
Oh well.

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Yup, don't know if it's still true but it is kind of like the jar beside
the phone in Australia. If you were at someones house and want to make
a call you drop 25 cents in the jar to cover the costs. Where
opertunity charging becomes an issue is usually at work where you may
have (a) to ask for a suitable plug to be installed (not usually cheap)
or (b) argue for a 'reserved' spot near the outside plug when no one
else gets preferential treatment. Note a usually leads to b. After you
have the plug you can offer to pay $1 per day for the electricity but
often it's not worth accoutings time to setup a separate line item.

Note that good opertunity charging often leads to less need for fast
charging.

Lawrence

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On
Behalf Of Chuck Homic
Sent: Tuesday, February 26, 2008 8:55 AM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Fw: Fast Charging



> Jeff Andre wrote:
> > I finally have to ask what may be a stupid question. I keep seeing
> people
> > talk about charging outlets at workplaces, or "opportunity charging"
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

I always offer to pay but most refuse payment they are
happy to have an electric car in the area that they
can ask questions about. i guess I really do pay in
time to answer these questions. Also an "opportunity
charge" of 1/2 hr or less which is normal for me,
costs only a penny or two. a full charge costs 30
cents +-.
It is so cheep it is hardly worth the accounting and
calculation to figure it out.
welcome to the world of electric transportation
kEVs



> --- Jeff Andre <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> > Greetings all.
> >
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Hello Jeff,

This is how I done it why back when there was a gas station on every corner 
and gas was $0.33 a gallon.

I pull in the EV which does not look like a EV, and as the attendant which 
was normally the owner, if I can get a battery charge. He says about $2.00.

I said if I use my own charger, because my battery voltage is different then 
the normal. He says about $1.00.

I said that's about right. I will be using about 2400 watts per hour and I 
will be gone for about four hours so that makes about 9600 watts. 5 cents 
times 9.6 kw = 48 cents which makes the station about 100 percent profit, a 
lot more than they are getting from the gallon of gas.

Many times people would not take any money.

Roland






----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Jeff Andre" <[email protected]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, February 26, 2008 8:03 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Fw: Fast Charging


> Greetings all.
>
> This is my first post to this list, and I'm still on a fairly steep 
> learning
> curve, so please bear with me.
>
> This line of posts (and similar ones from the archives) have me curious, 
> and
> I finally have to ask what may be a stupid question. I keep seeing people
> talk about charging outlets at workplaces, or "opportunity charging" at
> various types of locations away from their home base. I'm trying to
> understand the whole life-cycle model for the typical EV in daily use, and
> this seems to be a common theme. Please don't take offense, but how are
> people paying for this power?
>
> Clearly the amps aren't free. Are the various workplaces providing this 
> as
> a perk? I assume it is being done with the knowledge/consent of the owner
> of the outlet?
>
> Obviously if there was a commercial infrastructure of charging stations,
> you'd have to first insert your credit/debit card to turn on the juice.
> I've actually spoken to a few business owners in my area about offering 
> this
> kind of outlet for employees, and almost uniformly they've asked how it
> could be tracked, so that they could charge the cost back to the employee.
>
> Maybe I just live in the wrong place???
>
>
> Jeff Andre'
> Chapel Hill, NC
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
> 

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Jeff Andre wrote:
> > how are people paying for this power? Clearly the amps aren't free.
> > Are the various workplaces providing this as a perk?
> 
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Lee A. Hart wrote:
> > So, commercial businesses *can't* charge for electricity,
> > unless their local power company gets involved. So, you find
> > free outlets that can be used by anyone for anything;
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Ten years is how long the technology will take to penetrate the market...99% is already here...just a matter of cost, and who is willing to take the plunge...

For your particular fleet problem....build as you go, upgrade a vehicle or two at a time as an annual service....

You could start here for instance....

http://www.srdrives.com/green-propulsion.shtml


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> If that happens, this issue of "convenience charging" WILL become a
> regulated business. There WILL be NEC code driven requirements for
> equipment with rules that seem like extreme overkill to those on this
> list, but are designed to save the lives of people who don't know what
> an electron is, much less how to safely handle one.
> Think of it as a sign of the success of the EV movement.

There already are NEC code requirements for charging EVs. After all,
plugging in an EV is so much more dangerous than plugging in a hair dryer
or a vacuum cleaner (for the humorously challenged, that was sarcasm).

Let's assume everyone drives plug in Hybrids with say 30-50 miles range. 
The typical person lives within 15 miles of where they work. A plug in
hybrid should get at least 4 miles per KWH. Assuming they live 16 miles
from work that is 4 kwh to recharge. At the bulk rates that many
companies pay, that is somewhere between 16 cents an perhaps 40 cents per
day.

Even if EVERYONE plugged in at work, it would cost more in equipment and
administration costs that it would to just give away the electricity. The
company would just figure it in as part of the cost of doing business,
like maintaining a parking lot (repaving, painting lines, etc.)

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

I don't know where you guys are getting your juice.
Here in New Jersey its about 15 cents per Kwh.
If I drive 30 miles it takes about 15 Kwh to recharge.
Thats $2.25 for 30 miles, not much better than an ICE
that gets 30 miles a callon. I see alot of talk like " i can charge up for 
pennies", true if you mean several hundred
pennies 

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "keith vansickle" <[email protected]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, February 26, 2008 1:18 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Fw: Fast Charging


>I always offer to pay but most refuse payment they are
> happy to have an electric car in the area that they
> can ask questions about. i guess I really do pay in
> time to answer these questions. Also an "opportunity
> charge" of 1/2 hr or less which is normal for me,
> costs only a penny or two. a full charge costs 30
> cents +-.
> It is so cheep it is hardly worth the accounting and
> calculation to figure it out.
> welcome to the world of electric transportation
> kEVs
>


> > --- Jeff Andre <[email protected]> wrote:
> >
> >> Greetings all.
> >>
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Peter VanDerWal wrote...
> 
> 
> Even if EVERYONE plugged in at work, it would cost more in equipment
> and
> administration costs that it would to just give away the electricity. The
> company would just figure it in as part of the cost of doing business,
> like maintaining a parking lot (repaving, painting lines, etc.)

...or paying CO2 sequestering fees to the state when the air becomes to
dirty to breath. Maybe one day there may be a tax on pollution that you can
avoid if you promote the use of clean energy and clean transportation 

Mike

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Hello Al,

I get my juice from the pacific ocean. The sun evaporates the juice and the 
juice drops on the rocky's. The juice flows down the east slope to the Three 
Forks of the Missouri and then the juice pours over the Great Falls and 
through five dams in the Electric City.

Then the juice flows from the dam which is about 5 miles from me and I pipe 
it right into my EV at about $0.08 per KW. The juice use to cost us about 
$0.03 per KW back in the 70's and the industrial sites paid $0.01 per KW 
which where I work and plug in at that rate.

Roland


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Al" <[email protected]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, February 26, 2008 9:44 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Fw: Fast Charging


> I don't know where you guys are getting your juice.
> Here in New Jersey its about 15 cents per Kwh.
> If I drive 30 miles it takes about 15 Kwh to recharge.
> Thats $2.25 for 30 miles, not much better than an ICE
> that gets 30 miles a callon. I see alot of talk like " i can charge up for
> pennies", true if you mean several hundred
> pennies 
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "keith vansickle" <[email protected]>
> To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
> Sent: Tuesday, February 26, 2008 1:18 PM
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Fw: Fast Charging
>
>
> >I always offer to pay but most refuse payment they are
> > happy to have an electric car in the area that they
> > can ask questions about. i guess I really do pay in
> > time to answer these questions. Also an "opportunity
> > charge" of 1/2 hr or less which is normal for me,
> > costs only a penny or two. a full charge costs 30
> > cents +-.
> > It is so cheep it is hardly worth the accounting and
> > calculation to figure it out.
> > welcome to the world of electric transportation
> > kEVs
> >


> > > --- Jeff Andre <[email protected]> wrote:
> > >
> > >> Greetings all.
> > >>
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Around here, electricity is 10 cents a KWH for ordinary people and about
1/2 that for big power consumers.
I was also getting electricity on a special TOU program, so I only paid
6.4 cents a KWH off peak.

My typical commute was 16 miles. That required about 7.5 kwh (from the
outlet) or a little less than 50 cents per day.

Charging at work would have been less than 1/2 that.

> I don't know where you guys are getting your juice.
> Here in New Jersey its about 15 cents per Kwh.
> If I drive 30 miles it takes about 15 Kwh to recharge.
> Thats $2.25 for 30 miles, not much better than an ICE
> that gets 30 miles a callon. I see alot of talk like " i can charge up for
> pennies", true if you mean several hundred
> pennies 
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "keith vansickle" <[email protected]>
> To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
> Sent: Tuesday, February 26, 2008 1:18 PM
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Fw: Fast Charging
>
>
>>I always offer to pay but most refuse payment they are
>> happy to have an electric car in the area that they
>> can ask questions about. i guess I really do pay in
>> time to answer these questions. Also an "opportunity
>> charge" of 1/2 hr or less which is normal for me,
>> costs only a penny or two. a full charge costs 30
>> cents +-.
>> It is so cheep it is hardly worth the accounting and
>> calculation to figure it out.
>> welcome to the world of electric transportation
>> kEVs
>>


> >> --- Jeff Andre <[email protected]> wrote:
> >>
> >>> Greetings all.
> >>>
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Al wrote:
> > I don't know where you guys are getting your juice.
> > Here in New Jersey its about 15 cents per Kwh.
> > If I drive 30 miles it takes about 15 Kwh to recharge.
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> If your vehicle got 30mpg as an ICE and only gets 2 miles/kwh
> (500Wh/mi), it is broken. Perhaps you are missing a wheel? or comparing
> apples-to-oranges?

That was my first impression, but then I remember that most people post
the wh/mile as the energy used from the pack.
When you figure in charger efficiency and battery charge efficiency, a
vehicle that gets about 270 wh/mile from the pack needs about 500 wh/mile
from the outlet.

As I recall, the second generation EV1 needed MORE than 500 wh/mile from
the outlet. I know some of the OEM EVs from 10 years ago were chugging
over 700 wh/mile.

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Cory Cross" <[email protected]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, February 27, 2008 2:14 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Fw: Fast Charging




> > Al wrote:
> >> I don't know where you guys are getting your juice.
> >> Here in New Jersey its about 15 cents per Kwh.
> 
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

>> If your vehicle got 30mpg as an ICE and only gets 2 miles/kwh
>> (500Wh/mi), it is broken. Perhaps you are missing a wheel? or comparing
>> apples-to-oranges?
>
> That was my first impression, but then I remember that most people post
> the wh/mile as the energy used from the pack.
> When you figure in charger efficiency and battery charge efficiency, a
> vehicle that gets about 270 wh/mile from the pack needs about 500 wh/mile
> from the outlet.
>
> As I recall, the second generation EV1 needed MORE than 500 wh/mile from
> the outlet. I know some of the OEM EVs from 10 years ago were chugging
> over 700 wh/mile.
>
Thanks Pete, glad to hear that my 500wh/mile from the outlet is in the 
ballpark.

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

I guess I should consider myself lucky.
Here in Mid Missouri with Quiver River Electric Coop, we pay a 3 tier
rate.

0-400 Kwhs - $.079kwh
401-1800 Kwhs - $.058
Over 1800 Kwhs - $.042

Since I have a total electric home, I'm always at least in the middle
range.
At 15 Kwh, I should be able to charge my truck for $.87 at the middle
rate, or $.63 at the low rate.

Dennis
Elsberry, MO

-----Original Message-----
From: Al [mailto:[email protected]] 
Sent: Tuesday, February 26, 2008 10:45 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Fw: Fast Charging

I don't know where you guys are getting your juice.
Here in New Jersey its about 15 cents per Kwh.
If I drive 30 miles it takes about 15 Kwh to recharge.
Thats $2.25 for 30 miles, not much better than an ICE that gets 30 miles
a callon. I see alot of talk like " i can charge up for pennies", true
if you mean several hundred pennies 

----- Original Message -----
From: "keith vansickle" <[email protected]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, February 26, 2008 1:18 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Fw: Fast Charging


>I always offer to pay but most refuse payment they are
> happy to have an electric car in the area that they
> can ask questions about. i guess I really do pay in
> time to answer these questions. Also an "opportunity
> charge" of 1/2 hr or less which is normal for me,
> costs only a penny or two. a full charge costs 30
> cents +-.
> It is so cheep it is hardly worth the accounting and
> calculation to figure it out.
> welcome to the world of electric transportation
> kEVs
>


> > --- Jeff Andre <[email protected]> wrote:
> >
> >> Greetings all.
> >>
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Thanks for all the responses on the "opportunity charging" question. I
think I understand the consensus arguments. I'm not sure I buy Lee's
analogy about "running on water", since where I live we're currently in a
drought (anyone caught watering a plant might get shot), but I get the
point. 

Thanks also for the reference to the local EAA, De. A soon as I have some
time available, I'll try and catch that group. 

Jeff Andre
Chapel Hill, NC

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Lee Hart wrote:
> 
> > We have a strange situation here in the USA on that. The local power
> > companies have almost universally written special laws that give them a
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Where did you see a "requirement" to sell excess power?

They don't do net metering here. If I was to put in a grid tie PV system,
I could "give" the extra power to my power company. In fact they are doing
a deal where they will pay 25% of your grid-tie PV system install,
provided it does NOT have batteries.
No net metering, so all you can offset is the power you use during the day
time, you still have to buy power from them during the night, even if you
generate excess during the day.

> How can you sell something that is not yours? Or you're
> referring to a case where you generate (and store for future use)
> electricity it with your own solar panels? You probably can't sell it to
> your neighbor, but you do (in fact required) to sell it back to your
> utility company. What always puzzled me is if you have excess
> generation of your own solar plant why are you required to sell it.
> Why can't you [legally] waste it if you want by burning outdoor lights
> 24/7 as you can, say, legally waste water out of garden hose as long as
> you pay for it (e.g. it's yours now). No one would want to, but you
> should be allowed to. Not with electricity though...
>
> Is it because people would charge battery banks off peak cheap
> and try re-sell back to utility/whoever at peak rates attempting
> to make money that way?
>
> --
> Victor
> '91 ACRX - something different
>
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> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

So, it boils down to:
- does your meter run backwards and forwards?
(The meter at the house where I installed my 3 kW PV system
was a mechanical meter and although formally it was not
allowed to meter 'in reverse' the power company allowed it
to avoid people having to install a second expensive meter
without much benefit, so in essence I had "net metering"
because what I used during the night, was usually more
than offset during the day, except in winter, but that was
made up during the summer. My net usage was 1800kWh/yr and
the PV produced 2100kWh/yr. And yes, we had an (efficient)
electric drier and cooked electric too and both the dish
washer and clothes washer heated with electricity, so I 
converted the dish washer to take warm water, instead of 
cold water + electric heating. Clothes washer was more
complicated and before I could install a thermostatically
controlled tap for the single water inlet, I would have had
to run a new hot water pipe to the 3rd floor where it stood.
And we had a family of 4.

- Is your grid reliable?
In essence, the reason to have batteries is either the absence
of a grid, so you cannot push back in the grid and draw from
it at night (use as an infinite capacity battery, with higher
efficiency than any battery) or the unreliability of the grid
so that you want a backup.

BTW, many states now have laws about net metering which require
the power companies to offer it, though some are reluctant, so
check the laws in your state about what you can require from
your power company.
The laws about not being able to sell to your neighbor came into
existence when the power companies were establishing their 
monopolies, much like the car companies bought tramlines to kill
them and require the cities to buy buses that they manufactured.

HomePower magazine has been writing about power politics and the
effect on 'homebrew' independent power providers for at least a 
decade now, so check them out if this interest you.

Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
Email: [email protected] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [email protected]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Second Life: www.secondlife.com/?u=3b42cb3f4ae249319edb487991c30acb

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Peter VanDerWal
Sent: Saturday, March 01, 2008 10:02 AM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Fw: Fast Charging

Where did you see a "requirement" to sell excess power?

They don't do net metering here. If I was to put in a grid tie PV system, I could "give" the extra power to my power company. In fact they are doing a deal where they will pay 25% of your grid-tie PV system install, provided it does NOT have batteries.
No net metering, so all you can offset is the power you use during the day time, you still have to buy power from them during the night, even if you generate excess during the day.

> How can you sell something that is not yours? Or you're referring to a 
> case where you generate (and store for future use) electricity it with 
> your own solar panels? You probably can't sell it to your neighbor, 
> but you do (in fact required) to sell it back to your utility company. 
> What always puzzled me is if you have excess generation of your own 
> solar plant why are you required to sell it.
> Why can't you [legally] waste it if you want by burning outdoor lights
> 24/7 as you can, say, legally waste water out of garden hose as long 
> as you pay for it (e.g. it's yours now). No one would want to, but you 
> should be allowed to. Not with electricity though...
>
> Is it because people would charge battery banks off peak cheap and try 
> re-sell back to utility/whoever at peak rates attempting to make money 
> that way?
>
> --
> Victor
> '91 ACRX - something different
>
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Peter VanDerWal wrote:
> > Where did you see a "requirement" to sell excess power?
> 
> Solar installation businesess, when they evaluate your power
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Cor van de Water wrote:
> > - Is your grid reliable?
> > In essence, the reason to have batteries is either the absence
> > of a grid, so you cannot push back in the grid and draw from
> ...


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