# Fun with Tesla motor



## eldis (Sep 3, 2013)

Some more pictures:


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

WOW!
What's you plan? What vehicle are you going to put it into?

It makes my latest acquisition, Beryl the EV, look a bit, ummm, rustic!


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## eldis (Sep 3, 2013)

Woodsmith said:


> WOW!
> What's you plan? What vehicle are you going to put it into?
> 
> It makes my latest acquisition, Beryl the EV, look a bit, ummm, rustic!


Well, I bought it just because it was cheap (unfortunately I promised the seller not to give the number, but I payed much less than EVTV did).
There are several candidates, but for now main ones are old Porsche or Lotus Esprit Mk1. Anyway, it will be an interesting conversion to do. 

If numbers match Tesla Model S, we could be looking at 310kW 600Nm.


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## kennybobby (Aug 10, 2012)

It looks like a slightly bigger motor than the Model S, maybe the Performance version, P85+.


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## eldis (Sep 3, 2013)

So it Seems that kennybobby was right 
This motor indeed is the high-end Tesla Model S motor.

I started with the inverter. The idea was to find a way to get out all the electronics and power parts to judge on what kind of power levels could I expect, and how difficult it will be to do the hardware hack of the Tesla inverter.










Main DC cables go off quite easily, just one screw on the orange plastic protector, hiding two massive bus bar screws (DC from the battery pack).










Now is the time to remove the whole aluminum cylinder protecting the inverter. You just have to go around and release ~8 screws. Some warranty had to be voided 










Now just slide it off and observe the beauty (more like a beast, this is a 300kW 3 phase inverter!)










The nice triangular design is clearly visible (each side is one phase). The PCBs on top are IGBT drivers. You have to remove the top to access millions of screws that joins the inverter to the gearbox. 










Orange cap on the gearbox assembly hides three phase bus bars that routes the power directly to the motor. They have to be removed as well.










Unplug the temperature probes and other wires that goes to the gearbox and motor assembly. Now nothing is preventing you from removing the whole inverter 










Pay attention to the clever cooling cutouts, don't damage the sealing as you pull the inverter.

I've done a basic analysis of the circuits and interconnections between modules, checked the power parts and I'm pretty certain, that I can make it compatible with my UMC Drive controller. More on that some other day.


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## aeroscott (Jan 5, 2008)

Great work,this is my first look.

Do you have a weight on the package?


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## eldis (Sep 3, 2013)

aeroscott said:


> Great work,this is my first look.
> 
> Do you have a weight on the package?


Thanks! I don't have an exact figure, but I would place this somewhere around 140kg (motor+inverter+gearbox). The power per kg ratio in Tesla is amazing.


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## rochesterricer (Jan 5, 2011)

Great stuff, can't wait to see more!


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

Its like watching you take apart a UFO. Love it!


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## kennybobby (Aug 10, 2012)

Great photos, thanks for sharing. Looks like you have a fun project.

Would you be able to measure the resistance and inductance at the motor lugs, phase to phase? Maybe at DC, 60 or 120 Hz, 400 Hz, 1000 Hz?

Why is this important or of any interest? Because these electrical characteristics are used in the calculations made by the inverter to drive the motor using a Direct Torque Control (DTC) scheme, described in TM patents.

For a 3-phase, 4-pole wye motor with the poles wired 2s2p, and with 4 Turns per pole using 16 AWG copper wire 12-in-hand, i've done a rough calculation:

phase inductance ~ 493 nH
phase resistance ~ 5.3 mR

This gives an L/R time constant of 93 usec. If we use 3 tc to reach full current, then the inverter would need to generate a current waveform at about 895 Hz and the motor max speed ~ 26,858 rpm. With a 9.7:1 gearbox the theoretical max speed would be ~228 mph, but realistically the available motor power at that rpm wouldn't be enough to propel the car that fast.


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## eldis (Sep 3, 2013)

kennybobby said:


> Great photos, thanks for sharing. Looks like you have a fun project.
> 
> Would you be able to measure the resistance and inductance at the motor lugs, phase to phase? Maybe at DC, 60 or 120 Hz, 400 Hz, 1000 Hz?
> 
> ...


Great, I'm glad there are people seriously looking into the design of that motor as well  I'll be more than happy to take those measurements for you. It will be next week, as the motor is in my friend's garage and I took home only the inverter. (I already have more than enough motors stored in my flat..)


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## jhuebner (Apr 30, 2010)

Great stuff!

Encoder or no encoder?


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## eldis (Sep 3, 2013)

jhuebner said:


> Great stuff!
> 
> Encoder or no encoder?


There seems to be an encoder mounted on the side of the motor - not a resolver or anything like that. I still have to look into that section of the control, but there are no resolver digitizers onboard, so it is safe to presume Tesla is using standard optical/magnetic encoders.

kennybobby, the Direct Torque Control actually sounds about right, as I found very hardcore phase current measurement system in the inverter. Every other manufacturer uses hall effect sensors to measure the phase current (two or three), but Tesla designed a bus bar that has a small section made from less pure / more resistive material, and soldered a voltage drop sensor on top of it.










This configuration will be very precise (definitely better than 1% accuracy), but has to be quite difficult to manufacture just right, and every sensor like this is must be compensated for resistance error. You can see different coloration in the material, I would presume that this is due to laser trimming - they put the bus bar under test and cut in it using high power laser, to get the resistance just right. They went for this most likely because the DTC have high requirement on current measurement accuracy.

Someone might ask, why to go through all this trouble with laser trimming of the shunt, when we can easily compensate for it in software? That would perfectly fine in one-off equipment, but we are talking here about large scale automotive manufacturing. When you receive a batch of current sensors, someone would have to pick a bus bar, write it's calibration parameters in the firmware and upload that in the inverter. This creates delays, adds complexity and can lead to errors and problems during regular firmware updates pushed by Tesla.


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

Damn but that looks like fun!


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## aeroscott (Jan 5, 2008)

Looks like they are changing the resistance by over heating the bus. I had a fire in the engine compartment burning the insulation off the alternator power wire, so I taped it up but got a charging failure light. I was told to replace the over heated wire ,I did and it worked fine.


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## kennybobby (Aug 10, 2012)

eldis said:


> There seems to be an encoder mounted on the side of the motor - not a resolver or anything like that. I still have to look into that section of the control, but there are no resolver digitizers onboard, so it is safe to presume Tesla is using standard optical/magnetic encoders.
> 
> kennybobby, the Direct Torque Control actually sounds about right, as I found very hardcore phase current measurement system in the inverter. Every other manufacturer uses hall effect sensors to measure the phase current (two or three), but Tesla designed a bus bar that has a small section made from less pure / more resistive material, and soldered a voltage drop sensor on top of it.
> ...


Great catch in finding the phase current sensor and the explanation.

The patent for AWD (dual motors) describes how they use DTC and traction control to obtain the minimum power solution for the required torque. http://www.faqs.org/patents/app/20140257613

i didn't see anything that looked like an encoder on the motor pictures, but you're the only person to split one open and can answer that question--we are dying to know...


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## eldis (Sep 3, 2013)

kennybobby said:


> didn't see anything that looked like an encoder on the motor pictures, but you're the only person to split one open and can answer that question--we are dying to know...


This is what gave me the impression that there is indeed an encoder (looking on the motor side). Next time I see my motor, I'll track the wires and check where it goes and if it can be an encoder. My bet is on magnetic sensor like for the ABS system.










Tesla had to publish (by law) schematics and diagrams for the whole Tesla wiring and interconnection, unfortunately it is payed. If I need it desperately in the future, I will just have pay the access for few hours. But if it can be done without it, even better.


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## Moltenmetal (Mar 20, 2014)

Watching this with great interest!


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## Hollie Maea (Dec 9, 2009)

eldis said:


> Thanks! I don't have an exact figure, but I would place this somewhere around 140kg (motor+inverter+gearbox). The power per kg ratio in Tesla is amazing.


That's pretty good for an induction machine. Can't quite compete with a good PMAC system, but impressive nonetheless.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Hollie Maea said:


> That's pretty good for an induction machine. Can't quite compete with a good PMAC system, but impressive nonetheless.


Do you have any comparable systems as an example? Motor/Inverter/Gearbox.


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## Hollie Maea (Dec 9, 2009)

JRP3 said:


> Do you have any comparable systems as an example? Motor/Inverter/Gearbox.


I don't have good numbers for a gearbox, but:

AMR 90P motor: 45kg
RMS 250dz: 20kg

That's 275kW peak for 65kg motor and inverter combination.

A Borg Warner eGear is 28kg...that's probably a little weenier than the Tesla gearbox, but give, say, 40kg for gearbox and that's 105kg which would be 2.6kW/kg vs 2.2 for the Tesla system if it is 310kW and 140kg.

Still, it's an induction motor. I don't think any others come even close.


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## eldis (Sep 3, 2013)

Hollie Maea said:


> A Borg Warner eGear is 28kg...that's probably a little weenier than the Tesla gearbox, but give, say, 40kg for gearbox and that's 105kg which would be 2.6kW/kg vs 2.2 for the Tesla system if it is 310kW and 140kg.


Please don't cite me on that weight. It is not measured, just estimated, and includes all the metal support beams/pipes. The gearbox is a monster, I would say that it weights at least as much as the motor. Borg eGear craps out quite often (claimed by the EVTV, no experience on my side), so it is maybe a bit undersized for it's application.

That being said, new motor topologies with permanent magnets are very interesting and most likely more torque dense than our old trustworthy ACIM motors. Unless we have a rare metals crisis any time soon, it will probably be the way to go.

Let's focus on Tesla facts and leave the comparison of topologies for a different thread.


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## Hollie Maea (Dec 9, 2009)

Sorry for the brief derailment. I would love to find out what the motor weight and inverter weight ends up being though.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Yes, individual component weight, giving a true power to weight ratio, would be very interesting.


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## electro wrks (Mar 5, 2012)

At about 48:30 in this MIT talk, Musk talks about the Tesla motor:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SOpmaLY9XdI


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## electro wrks (Mar 5, 2012)

Here's a Tesla patent (maybe) for the rotor cooling Musk refers to in the MIT talk: http://www.google.com/patents/US7489057 . If you get the motor apart, it would be interesting to see if this is the method used to cool the rotor. Also, I wonder what kind of seals and bearings are used on this motor shaft/rotor cooling system?


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## eldis (Sep 3, 2013)

electro wrks said:


> Here's a Tesla patent (maybe) for the rotor cooling Musk refers to in the MIT talk: http://www.google.com/patents/US7489057 . If you get the motor apart, it would be interesting to see if this is the method used to cool the rotor. Also, I wonder what kind of seals and bearings are used on this motor shaft/rotor cooling system?


Great stuff! Thanks everyone for sharing your findings. I'll try to slowly answer all the questions, as I get the chance to measure/test stuff. I will not be taking the motor apart anytime soon (if ever) - exactly due to the cooling system. There is a good chance that as I pull out the rotor, some of the coolant will contaminate the gearbox oil, or in the worst case I damage the actual seal. 

I have just put the inverter on a scale - without coolant and outer cylindrical case it weights 12kg. The case itself will be around 1kg. That would make this 300kW/13kg = 23kW/kg. Not bad!


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## electro wrks (Mar 5, 2012)

eldis said:


> I will not be taking the motor apart anytime soon (if ever) - exactly due to the cooling system. There is a good chance that as I pull out the rotor, some of the coolant will contaminate the gearbox oil, or in the worst case I damage the actual seal.


Ah, no guts! You're probably smart though not to tear into the motor. If I were Tesla, I might be tempted to weld the whole motor together-seal it up- for safety and product control reasons. At least trace the coolant and oil; pressure and return lines for us, if you can.


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## CKidder (Dec 12, 2009)

eldis said:


> This is what gave me the impression that there is indeed an encoder (looking on the motor side). Next time I see my motor, I'll track the wires and check where it goes and if it can be an encoder. My bet is on magnetic sensor like for the ABS system.
> 
> Tesla had to publish (by law) schematics and diagrams for the whole Tesla wiring and interconnection, unfortunately it is payed. If I need it desperately in the future, I will just have pay the access for few hours. But if it can be done without it, even better.


The Tesla inverter does have a quadrature encoder input. What I don't know is how many counts the encoder is.


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## CKidder (Dec 12, 2009)

kennybobby said:


> Is that something you found on a schematic or picture, etc--what's the source of that?


I probably should have mentioned that. I've seen the official Tesla schematic and it has a quadrature encoder input listed on the schematic for the inverter. So, that info is legit even though I can't prove it to you since the document is not freely available.


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## rtz (Jul 3, 2013)

How hard is it going to be to get the CAN codes going with a GEVCU?


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## CKidder (Dec 12, 2009)

rtz said:


> How hard is it going to be to get the CAN codes going with a GEVCU?


Nobody knows yet. Maybe they don't have a lot of security in the protocol, maybe they do. I am not aware of anyone who has a data capture of the drivetrain canbus so as of yet it is all mysterious. If anyone does get such a capture I'd love to see it.


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## eldis (Sep 3, 2013)

CKidder said:


> Nobody knows yet. Maybe they don't have a lot of security in the protocol, maybe they do. I am not aware of anyone who has a data capture of the drivetrain canbus so as of yet it is all mysterious. If anyone does get such a capture I'd love to see it.


Unfortunately it seems that the CAN bus physical access is somewhat less convenient. The percentage of Tesla owners that can pull this off is rather small, so chance of the correct capture to randomly appear on the internet is low. I think that EVTV is in the best position to acquire such data  

http://www.instructables.com/id/Exploring-the-Tesla-Model-S-CAN-Bus/?ALLSTEPS


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## rtz (Jul 3, 2013)

How do you join the UMC Drive to the Tesla inverter?


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## eldis (Sep 3, 2013)

rtz said:


> How do you join the UMC Drive to the Tesla inverter?


The same way as I did with the Chevy Volt - by following circuits, searching for buffers to get clues about what are inputs and outputs, tracing op amps and their gain, voltage levels on power supplies, current sensors' scaling.. Basically you need to know everything about every wire in the inverter, to be able to replace the controller  

The traditionally annoying things are: hard layer of conformal coating and 4-6 layered PCBs. But at the end fortunately I don't really need to see the inverter working as a whole, passive analysis is enough to be able to interface it. Then you still have to figure out which control signal is doing what (half bridge PWMs, driver enable and so on).










It will take me a couple of weeks to finish that (many other projects - finishing my car, assembling and testing the UMC Drive with other inverters..), but from what I know already, it looks quite promising.

Before someone asks this question - yes, it would indeed be better to decipher the CAN communication for this thing, and not to do any modifications at all. But getting the bare CAN minimum to know only how to command some torque, it wouldn't really be my inverter. I like doing things the hard way. Plus there is a good chance that my inverter is a hybrid between Tesla Model S and Mercedes B electric. No idea at which state of the project did Mercedes flash my firmware, or if it is even remotely similar to the production version of any of those cars.


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## eldis (Sep 3, 2013)

Hi guys,
Time for a small update.

*Motor specs:*
The motor has a maximum rotor speed of 16000 rpm.
Base: 415 Nm of torque and 270kW for a motor shaft speed between 6,500 rpm and 9,000 rpm
Performance: 590 Nm of torque and 310kW for a motor shaft speed between 5,500 rpm and 9,000 rpm

The drive inverter delivers 900A rms to the motor in a Base drive unit, and 1200A rms
in a Performance drive unit.
The gearbox is a single speed 9.73:1 reduction.

As for the encoder - it is an hall-effect encoder, with two output signals, 90 deg out of phase. It is serviceable, you can remove the sensor from the motor (it is the black plastic part on the motor side)

The rotor cannot be removed from the gearbox assembly. So reusing just the Tesla motor without the gearbox is not possible.

I'm just days away from being able to spin the Tesla motor using the original inverter and my motor controller solution. The game is on, EVTV.


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## CKidder (Dec 12, 2009)

Awesome! I hope you do get it going.

The EVTV crew is usually not the first to do something. Being second can still be kind of cool.  It's actually kind of neat that the two of us are taking different roads to get there. There are benefits to each technique and I'm happy to hear that you've had reasonably good luck with your approach so far. 

Take video. Lots of video.


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## eldis (Sep 3, 2013)

CKidder said:


> Awesome! I hope you do get it going.
> 
> The EVTV crew is usually not the first to do something. Being second can still be kind of cool.  It's actually kind of neat that the two of us are taking different roads to get there. There are benefits to each technique and I'm happy to hear that you've had reasonably good luck with your approach so far.
> 
> Take video. Lots of video.


Thanks, Colin - I mean it in a friendly way  I like the work you guys are doing (especially now with the heater, that was a tough cookie to crack).

I'll make videos and pictures  I think that the plan for this weekend is clear.

BTW, did you observe any differences between your drivetrains? If I recall correctly, you have one performance and one from a 65kWh unit? If my findings are correct, there are no real differences. It will be limited in the firmware of the motor controller (makes sense, as manufacturing two different rotors/inverters would not bring any advantage to Tesla).


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## rochesterricer (Jan 5, 2011)

eldis said:


> The rotor cannot be removed from the gearbox assembly. So reusing just the Tesla motor without the gearbox is not possible.


Well thats annoying


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## jhuebner (Apr 30, 2010)

Very cool and good to finally know about the encoder.

It's neat that they make use of the high speed capability of brushless motors instead of just throwing torque at it.

What sort of power electronics are used? I.e. bus cap and switches.


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## tomofreno (Mar 3, 2009)

jhuebner said:


> ...It's neat that they make use of the high speed capability of brushless motors instead of just throwing torque at it...


 Both I would say. Tractive effort is what accelerates the vehicle, which is proportional to motor torque for a given wheel diameter and gear ratio. But to maintain that high tractive effort at higher vehicle speeds requires high power. They have both. I assume the 6500 and 5500 are base speeds, and from those to 9k is the approximately constant power region? 

The Chevy Spark has higher high peak torque to vehicle mass ratio, but low base speed. Similar issue to HPEVS/Curtis stuff, acceleration rate decreases at higher vehicle speeds. The Tesla S can sustain it.


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## electro wrks (Mar 5, 2012)

The rotor cannot be removed from the gearbox assembly. So reusing just the Tesla motor without the gearbox is not possible.
.[/QUOTE said:


> How is the rotor(or motor) permanently affixed to the gearbox assembly?


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## eldis (Sep 3, 2013)

tomofreno said:


> Both I would say. Tractive effort is what accelerates the vehicle, which is proportional to motor torque for a given wheel diameter and gear ratio. But to maintain that high tractive effort at higher vehicle speeds requires high power. They have both. I assume the 6500 and 5500 are base speeds, and from those to 9k is the approximately constant power region?
> 
> The Chevy Spark has higher high peak torque to vehicle mass ratio, but low base speed. Similar issue to HPEVS/Curtis stuff, acceleration rate decreases at higher vehicle speeds. The Tesla S can sustain it.


They are using a normal induction motor (well, normal motor doesn't really have water flowing through a rotor shaft, but electrically it's normal).
You are right that those are base speeds - after all different models have different battery voltage, thus different base speed. Over that value is the field weakening region - trading torque for speed with constant power (minus losses in rising Id current that doesn't produce any torque).


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## eldis (Sep 3, 2013)

electro wrks said:


> How is the rotor(or motor) permanently affixed to the gearbox assembly?


The motor "face" and bearings are a part of the gearbox assembly, plus you have a water jacket through the rotor. So if you somehow hack apart the gearbox cast, you will find a splined shaft entering the gearbox.


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## Tomdb (Jan 28, 2013)

Would you even want to hook this up to another gearbox? I believe that you will just be destroying these boxes. 

The lash in a standard gearbox is way to much for an electric torque monster.

A few questions;
What kind of voltages do the gate drives operate at?

Also how are the igbt's paralleled, multi gate drives or one driver for all or all?

Any form of torque damper to be observed in the gearbox? (spider clutch/tuned shafts(a shaft in a shaft)


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## eldis (Sep 3, 2013)

Tomdb said:


> Would you even want to hook this up to another gearbox? I believe that you will just be destroying these boxes.
> 
> The lash in a standard gearbox is way to much for an electric torque monster.
> 
> ...



I'll write a report on the electronics eventually, but I don't want to split this information too much.

Plus some of it I don't know yet, or I'm not 100% sure. Also I had some totally shameless "representatives" from major industrial power electronic companies stalking this thread or even trying to contact me with questions about particularities of the Tesla design. I'm saying shameless because they of course didn't even want to offer anything in exchange for that information. If there would be a way to make sure they do not get this while you guys do, I would do it. If you want to discuss this, or tell me your opinion on this matter, you can write me a PM.

I agree that you don't want to use this motor with a different gearbox anyway. Tesla wanted to have a two speed gearbox in Model S, but they didn't manage to get/design one that could survive (that's the rumor). 

For the torque dampeners - from what I've seen, there is no such thing in there. The fact is, that you can make a reasonably accurate predictor that limits your torque slope. Or even takes the backslash in the gear set into consideration - that occurs when changing the direction of current (regen to drive transition). At least that's what I would do. Can't talk for Tesla though


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## Tomdb (Jan 28, 2013)

The main problem is the torque ramp up. Especially from "stand still" or coasting (no load). Gears do not enjoy or handle shocks well. Seeing that electric motors can deliver instant torque and with out a clutch that can slip, the teeth take a beating every time you change your throttle position.

I believe tesla had to ramp their increase torque/second down a whole lot to keep the car together. Have seen some "simpler" converted cars destroy axles gearboxes and spline couplers.


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## electro wrks (Mar 5, 2012)

Tomdb said:


> Would you even want to hook this up to another gearbox? I believe that you will just be destroying these boxes.


What kind of a question is that? I thought this was a DIY forum. These motors are showing up on the secondary market-some will have worn out/ destroyed G-boxes. The existing gear reduction may not be proper for use in other vehicles. Say in a larger commercial vehicle, or even a motorcycle. One should not limit themselves to the mere intended applications of OEMs!

It's a challenge, but open face motors, cooling issues, and gearboxes have been dealt with in the past and could generate a conversion parts market for these motors.

eldis, are you sure water is used to cool the rotor?


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## eldis (Sep 3, 2013)

electro wrks said:


> What kind of a question is that? I thought this was a DIY forum. These motors are showing up on the secondary market-some will have worn out/ destroyed G-boxes. The existing gear reduction may not be proper for use in other vehicles. Say in a larger commercial vehicle, or even a motorcycle. One should not limit themselves to the mere intended applications of OEMs!
> 
> It's a challenge, but open face motors, cooling issues, and gearboxes have been dealt with in the past and could generate a conversion parts market for these motors.
> 
> eldis, are you sure water is used to cool the rotor?


I'm 100% sure that the water is flowing through the rotor. It enters through the rear side of the motor - that's where the water jacket for it is. Looking on the thing again, most likely on the gearbox side (on the spline side) the water is not going anywhere else, just returning internally through channels in the shaft back the the rear of the motor. This is not easy to judge very well. It would make sense to have only one entry/exit point for the rotor cooling, as making such seal must be really difficult.

The motor outer case is welded to the gearbox - look on the pictures. So they most likely insert the stator windings with this external case on the gearbox and then weld it around. Not sure if you can extract the stator out from the case without grinding off the motor-gearbox weld.

We are DIY forum, so let's just guess - if you unscrew the rear side of the motor, you will expose the rotor, windings and the cooling system of the rotor. Then you pull the rotor, which will come out with the front bearings press-fitted in the gearbox flange. Then you cut the welds holding the stator+case to the gearbox. Now you have the the stator and rotor. The rear of the motor is fine, as you salvaged that part, so now you just have to design the front flange with bearing press-fit, insert the rotor, and weld or somehow else attach your new front flange to the stator.

Maybe. Or maybe not. Feel free to try it 

EDIT - this is not a typical open face kind of situation. I've never seen such connection before, and it will be VERY difficult to adapt this to anything. If you see an offer for a dead Tesla drivetrain, consider well if the discount will be worth the risk.


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## rochesterricer (Jan 5, 2011)

Tomdb said:


> Would you even want to hook this up to another gearbox? I believe that you will just be destroying these boxes.
> 
> The lash in a standard gearbox is way to much for an electric torque monster.


If you wanted to use this in a direct drive application in a conversion with a solid rear axle, the integral gearbox might make things a bit more complicated than they would be with just the motor alone.


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## eldis (Sep 3, 2013)

rochesterricer said:


> If you wanted to use this in a direct drive application in a conversion with a solid rear axle, the integral gearbox might make things a bit more complicated than they would be with just the motor alone.


In theory you could block one differential output, rotate the drivetrain by 90 degrees and then connect the other dif output to your shaft. But the ratio would probably be unusable.

What could be done, is just to crack open the gearbox case, throw one half + all the reduction gears, and cut out "irrelevant" pieces of the other half. Then you don't have to manufacture anything (except for the motor shaft coupler of course).


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## rochesterricer (Jan 5, 2011)

eldis said:


> In theory you could block one differential output, rotate the drivetrain by 90 degrees and then connect the other dif output to your shaft. But the ratio would probably be unusable.
> 
> What could be done, is just to crack open the gearbox case, throw one half + all the reduction gears, and cut out "irrelevant" pieces of the other half. Then you don't have to manufacture anything (except for the motor shaft coupler of course).


Yeah, but that could complicate motor mounting if you have limited underhood space.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

eldis said:


> Tesla wanted to have a two speed gearbox in Model S, but they didn't manage to get/design one that could survive (that's the rumor).


I think they gave up on the two speed gearbox idea with the Roadster and never looked back.


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## Karter2 (Nov 17, 2011)

> Originally Posted by eldis
> The rotor cannot be removed from the gearbox assembly. So reusing just the Tesla motor without the gearbox is not possible.





rochesterricer said:


> Well thats annoying


Yes , but it does explain why Tesla were/are swapping out entire drive trains , just to rectify the "drive line rumble" issue .


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## electro wrks (Mar 5, 2012)

I alluded to the welded up housing in post 29 partly in jest and partly because the housing looked to be welded up in an earlier cut away photo I'd seen. Good to get conformation. I suppose this could be to deter other uses of the motor. I've cut through many a weld and casting to get at parts, so it wouldn't stop me.

The catalytic converter thieves could really clean up stealing these copper rich motors if they were, instead, just bolt on items.


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## piotrsko (Dec 9, 2007)

Karter2 said:


> Yes , but it does explain why Tesla were/are swapping out entire drive trains , just to rectify the "drive line rumble" issue .


Nope; fewer bolts and faster to swap for the techs than disassemble.


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## Karter2 (Nov 17, 2011)

piotrsko said:


> Nope; fewer bolts and faster to swap for the techs than disassemble.


If Eldis's comment is correct..


> Originally Posted by eldis
> The rotor cannot be removed from the gearbox assembly. So reusing just the Tesla motor without the gearbox is not possible.


 Then nuts and bolts are not the problem....it's welds that have to be broken !


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

I doubt the housing itself is much of a failure point, and I doubt any welds need to be cut for service. I assume they can still unbolt the two halves of the gearbox to get to the internals on that end, or unbolt the cover on the other end and pull the rotor out that way.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Some good video of motor assembly starting around the 8 min mark:


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

That's a fun video
It's a shame that they didn't get somebody who knows his arse from his elbow to vet the script!


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## Karter2 (Nov 17, 2011)

JRP3 said:


> I doubt the housing itself is much of a failure point, and I doubt any welds need to be cut for service. I assume they can still unbolt the two halves of the gearbox to get to the internals on that end, or unbolt the cover on the other end and pull the rotor out that way.


You could change the rotor, but the stator is heat shrunk into its housing which is welded to the gearbox casting .
So, if you want to change the gearbox, you have to change the motor also.
Of course you could always keep the old box housing and motor with new internal fitted. Or fit the old motor rotor into a new gearbox and motor stator...but really , do any dealer warranty repairs involve stripping down and rebuilding something like a failing gearbox ...or do they just replace the whole assembly ?
Anything is possible , but It's just not practical !


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## eldis (Sep 3, 2013)

Karter2 said:


> If Eldis's comment is correct..
> 
> Then nuts and bolts are not the problem....it's welds that have to be broken !



That's exactly why I hate to draw conclusions on something that I have no way to verify 100%. I wrote it in a wrong way - the rotor probably can be removed (see my suggested procedure for it few comments up), but the external "cylinder" of the motor is welded to the gearbox case.

I'm looking forward to see the motor insides, once someone here will invest their money into buying it and will take it apart.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Karter2 said:


> You could change the rotor, but the stator is heat shrunk into its housing which is welded to the gearbox casting .
> So, if you want to change the gearbox, you have to change the motor also.
> Of course you could always keep the old box housing and motor with new internal fitted. Or fit the old motor rotor into a new gearbox and motor stator...but really , do any dealer warranty repairs involve stripping down and rebuilding something like a failing gearbox ...or do they just replace the whole assembly ?
> Anything is possible , but It's just not practical !


I believe what Tesla has been doing is pulling the whole unit in the service center, bolting in a new one to get the customer on their way, then rebuilding the gearbox for future use. At first they were shipping the units back to the factory for a rebuild and engineering evaluation, but I believe they can now do them at the service center. Tesla had a few problems with the gearbox, some were not properly shimmed at the factory, causing excessive wear and sometimes failure, and a bunch that were shipped to Norway had a lubrication problem. Bearing and gear changes should be quite possible. I would not expect any actual repairs would need to be done to the stator, and obviously they can't be, it would just be replaced. Aftermarket tuner Saleen changed the gearing in their modification so obviously gear changes are possible.


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## Karter2 (Nov 17, 2011)

Yes, as I said, all those things can be done, ..
....but back to the original point, the motor cannot be separated from the gearbox.


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## rochesterricer (Jan 5, 2011)

Karter2 said:


> You could change the rotor, but the stator is heat shrunk into its housing which is welded to the gearbox casting .
> So, if you want to change the gearbox, you have to change the motor also.
> Of course you could always keep the old box housing and motor with new internal fitted. Or fit the old motor rotor into a new gearbox and motor stator...but really , do any dealer warranty repairs involve stripping down and rebuilding something like a failing gearbox ...or do they just replace the whole assembly ?
> Anything is possible , but It's just not practical !


I don't think Tesla wants individual service centers doing things that involved. They seem to prefer sending the whole unit to specialists within the company. Same with servicing of the battery pack.


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## PStechPaul (May 1, 2012)

Fascinating! I missed this previously, but it was well worth catching up on. I am curious about the number of poles of the motor, and the maximum drive frequency. It is well known that induction motors are capable of much higher power at high frequency, and the limitation is generally due to the magnetic properties of the laminations and losses due to eddy currents. I think there are some more exotic steel alloys and very thin laminations that might allow very high frequency. Grain oriented materials are often used in transformers where the flux path can be well accommodated (especially in toroids). But it is more difficult to accomplish in motor laminations.

There is a post in sci.electronics.design by Robert Macy on May 17, about a MEMS motor with over 1000 poles and driven at 1 MHz. A stacked version was built in about a 6 inch cube with approximately 360 HP. The post was an OT drift in a thread about the Amtrak wreck.


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## rochesterricer (Jan 5, 2011)

PStechPaul said:


> There is a post in sci.electronics.design by Robert Macy on May 17, about a MEMS motor with over 1000 poles and driven at 1 MHz. A stacked version was built in about a 6 inch cube with approximately 360 HP. The post was an OT drift in a thread about the Amtrak wreck.


This really made me curious, so I looked up the post. Seems that was predicted output, not actually measured. Just in case anyone is as curious as I was:

https://groups.google.com/forum/#!searchin/sci.electronics.design/mems$20360/sci.electronics.design/9P6FZ0NHb5k/L5jlt50IgvcJ



> Thanks for the info, forgot about the 'practicalities' of electrical
> distribution where the weather can be a bit daunting to survive,
> especially where it is not possible to make the system 'grounded' like
> here in the U.S. [I am assuming Finland soil is a lot like Norwegian soil.]
> ...


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## gunnarhs (Apr 24, 2012)

rochesterricer said:


> I don't think Tesla wants individual service centers doing things that involved. They seem to prefer sending the whole unit to specialists within the company. Same with servicing of the battery pack.


 OK, that would be a very costly business model


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## eldis (Sep 3, 2013)

gunnarhs said:


> OK, that would be a very costly business model


I've taken apart the drivetrain, and seen firsthand the teardown of a battery pack. This is not the kind stuff that a normal service center would want to do. I'm not too familiar with what these guys normally do or don't, but replacing inverter is similar in complexity to opening a gearbox and fixing individual gears. Can be done, but people need a very specific training for that.


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## rochesterricer (Jan 5, 2011)

gunnarhs said:


> OK, that would be a very costly business model


It would be if they were meant to serviced regularly. However, if most of them last for at least 8 years, as they are intended to, then its not an issue. Also, they can more easily diagnose a manufacturing issue if many owners are having problems.


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## Karter2 (Nov 17, 2011)

rochesterricer said:


> It would be if they were meant to serviced regularly. However, if most of them last for at least 8 years, as they are intended to, then its not an issue. Also, they can more easily diagnose a manufacturing issue if many owners are having problems.


I doubt there are many auto makers who expect (allow?) component level repair ( gearbox internals, engine internals, etc) , by a regular dealer service technician , especially under warranty cover.
Assembly replacement is the norm and often cheapest (time is the real cost) as well as enabling better analysis of defects from the returned assemblies.


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## rochesterricer (Jan 5, 2011)

Karter2 said:


> I doubt there are many auto makers who expect (allow?) component level repair ( gearbox internals, engine internals, etc) , by a regular dealer service technician , especially under warranty cover.
> Assembly replacement is the norm and often cheapest (time is the real cost) as well as enabling better analysis of defects from the returned assemblies.


Yep, although it does makes things more difficult for us junkyard builders.


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## eldis (Sep 3, 2013)

Success! I have now full control over the Tesla Model S inverter. 

Seeing is believing  






For now only a lightbulb test. Stay tuned for more!


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## palmer_md (Jul 22, 2011)

Oh, I was hoping to see the motor spin. Very cool that you were able to succeed so fast. Great work!


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## Hollie Maea (Dec 9, 2009)

Looks like Jack might not win this race afterall...


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## Ai! (May 9, 2014)

subscribed!


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## Tomdb (Jan 28, 2013)

What Eldis is doing here is true hacking or lets say reusing the hardware.
What jack is doing is more of a hacking the software side.

So two different approaches, both with thier strengths and downsides. However one is not a better solution then the other or an easier task. 

In this race I would consider both projects winner. Because their goal (Eldis wants to control the motor with his brain, Jack wants to control the "drivetrain" as intended in a Tesla.) are different but their targets (spin the pretty motor) are the same.


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## eldis (Sep 3, 2013)

Tomdb said:


> What Eldis is doing here is true hacking or lets say reusing the hardware.
> What jack is doing is more of a hacking the software side.
> 
> So two different approaches, both with thier strengths and downsides. However one is not a better solution then the other or an easier task.
> ...


I couldn't say it better, Tom!
We are not competing with the EVTV. As a matter of fact the only thing we share is the desire to spin the Tesla drivetrain. Our approaches are completely different, as are our reasons for doing it. I would say that going both ways at the same time is the best way how to make sure that the community gets to use Tesla drivetrains one day. And if that day will come sooner, only better.

My way requires additional HW touching the lowest levels. It will take me more time to tune everything properly, but once it's done, it's done. Also Tesla drivetrains have different power levels - plus there are other cars using the same drivetrain (like Mercedes B electric). My controller doesn't care from which car it came from or what was the power limit. I'll tell you a secret. All the drivetrains are the same. The difference is in the firmware limitation and in communication protocols.

*And while writing this post, under the table I have a small motor being spun by the Tesla inverter. So that's that  Of course I will consider this a success once it's spinning the TESLA motor.*

Still many small things to solve and do. Also there is my real daytime job, another thing that EVTV doesn't have to worry too much about


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## CKidder (Dec 12, 2009)

I guess I get to be the first to say: we spun a tesla drive train today. There will be video.


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## palmer_md (Jul 22, 2011)

Congratulations guys. Awesome


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Sweet! The Hack Team did it.


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## eldis (Sep 3, 2013)

CKidder said:


> I guess I get to be the first to say: we spun a tesla drive train today. There will be video.


Congratulations Colin, I'm glad that the CAN data reply worked for you!

I'm a bit puzzled - using the Tesla inverter, I can spin any motors lying around here - I cracked all the controls more than a week ago. But I can't spin my Tesla motor.

No matter how much current I apply to it, the shaft doesn't spin. It seems that something in the gearbox got broken and jammed it during the crash. I'll keep on investigating. Since there are no driveshafts on my motor, I can't just try to spin it from the differential side by hand to verify.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Could you stick something in the gearbox to try and turn it?


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## eldis (Sep 3, 2013)

JRP3 said:


> Could you stick something in the gearbox to try and turn it?


Yes, I'm trying to find something that would allow me to do that. The problem is that the inner spline is very fine and deep, so just using a screwdriver is not an option (plus the ratio is 9.73:1, so you need quite some force).


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## piotrsko (Dec 9, 2007)

Stupid question? Don't they use a parking pawl inside the tranny in addition to the parking brake?


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## eldis (Sep 3, 2013)

piotrsko said:


> Stupid question? Don't they use a parking pawl inside the tranny in addition to the parking brake?


I thought so as well, but there is no indication of such system being installed anywhere. I would see some wires/controls for it


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## kennybobby (Aug 10, 2012)

*Re: gearbox parking pawls*

What is that black item on the gearbox to the right of the output splines--with the connector socket?


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## eldis (Sep 3, 2013)

kennybobby said:


> What is that black item on the gearbox to the right of the output splines--with the connector socket?


It looks like some RPM meter - but good idea kennybobby, I'll try to remove it, just to be sure!


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## eldis (Sep 3, 2013)

And now I feel like an idiot  it indeed was a parking pawl!

Piotrsko, kennybobby, you were right!!

*Okay, so I'm spinning the Tesla motor*  Beaten by a mechanical brake.. I should have asked you guys a week ago!


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## boekel (Nov 10, 2010)

eldis said:


> And now I feel like an idiot  it indeed was a parking pawl!
> 
> Piotrsko, kennybobby, you were right!!
> 
> *Okay, so I'm spinning the Tesla motor*  Beaten by a mechanical brake.. I should have asked you guys a week ago!


Lol!

Congrats


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## jackbauer (Jan 12, 2008)

Congrats indeed  Video??


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## eldis (Sep 3, 2013)

And here is the video


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## kennybobby (Aug 10, 2012)

Excellent video Michal, and you have done a great job reverse engineering the Tesla inverter and the development of your universal controller!


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## jackbauer (Jan 12, 2008)

Fantastic! Well done!


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## CKidder (Dec 12, 2009)

The video shows up as private for me. But, still, good job. It's awesome to see that both of us were successful!


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## palmer_md (Jul 22, 2011)

CKidder said:


> The video shows up as private for me. But, still, good job. It's awesome to see that both of us were successful!


It does now for me as well. I saw it yesterday, and it's a great video showing connecting both the tesla power electronics to the tesla motor as well as the Volt power electronics to the tesla motor using his universal controller.


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## eldis (Sep 3, 2013)

CKidder said:


> The video shows up as private for me. But, still, good job. It's awesome to see that both of us were successful!


Sorry, It's back up. I want to redo one part so I'll pull it down again later on. You can watch it now.


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## Weisheimer (May 11, 2009)

Nice work there Eldis.
I'm reading both of your threads and find them to be interesting.


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## eldis (Sep 3, 2013)

Weisheimer said:


> Nice work there Eldis.
> I'm reading both of your threads and find them to be interesting.


Thanks! Congratulations on your success


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## Hollie Maea (Dec 9, 2009)

CKidder said:


> I guess I get to be the first to say: we spun a tesla drive train today. There will be video.


Nice work!

I really have to urge you to not go after the Supercharger network next, though. Tesla isn't going to do anything about hacking a drive train, and wouldn't have much of a case if they did. But if you hack a supercharger, they'll come after you, and they'll win. Tesla is notorious for losing lawsuits, but a first year law student could win that suit...regardless of how good Jack's lawyers are.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

I'm inclined to agree. Supercharging is not free, Tesla customers get SC access because they buy a car from Tesla. Anyone else would be guilty of theft of services. Unless of course you have a Tesla that had SC access but was disabled for some reason, then you might be OK.


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## Otmar (Dec 4, 2008)

JRP3 said:


> I'm inclined to agree. Supercharging is not free, Tesla customers get SC access because they buy a car from Tesla.


I'm concerned that Tesla would have to act fast if people started using the Superchargers with something other than a Tesla. I can see the fun challenge of making it work, but then I'd hate to see it spread out to the "public." Other owners would probably raise a stink and it would be a problem for Tesla's image to have some of our hacked cars at the stations. Just like me showing up with a Wreckla and may be bringing the Stretchla but at least I paid for the access. ;-)

Courts are slow, and though they may pursue the legal theft route I expect they may avoid that bad press and just implement a tech fix. AFAIK supercharges are online and probably also have online firmware updates. It would be a pain since cars would have to be updated but it's not that hard for them to implement security on that connection. Now that they have Apple's "Hacker Princess" they have the capability if they wanted to go there. 

And here I am extending OT in this thread, I'm sorry, mods feel free to relocate this to a better place if needed. 

Back on topic, I'm real excited to see these motors spinning! eldis is doing great stuff!
I've got a Honda Insight with an EV-1 Motor installed that is lacking a controller. I do have a Tri-Zilla prototype in it using the same TI Instaspin chip but it's not running. My friend was working on that over a year ago before TI had induction autotune working. It all stopped progress when I lost my programmer to Tesla's stationary storage division. I'm happy for him, but the car sits.

The current Tri-Zilla is a powerful controller (still no better than Model S) but it lacks environmental protection. I'd be real tempted to run one of your boards in a nice sealed controller. Maybe Volt, Prius, Leaf? Which one has enough room inside to close and seal up with your board? Or should we make custom drop in versions of the board for certain controllers? I'm guessing you are busy with getting them running well first, but closing up the boxes may be something to consider as you move forward. 

Thanks for taking us along on this exciting project!


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## eldis (Sep 3, 2013)

Otmar said:


> And here I am extending OT in this thread, I'm sorry, mods feel free to relocate this to a better place if needed.


No worries, this is an interesting topic!



Otmar said:


> Back on topic, I'm real excited to see these motors spinning! eldis is doing great stuff!
> I've got a Honda Insight with an EV-1 Motor installed that is lacking a controller. I do have a Tri-Zilla prototype in it using the same TI Instaspin chip but it's not running. My friend was working on that over a year ago before TI had induction autotune working. It all stopped progress when I lost my programmer to Tesla's stationary storage division. I'm happy for him, but the car sits.
> 
> The current Tri-Zilla is a powerful controller (still no better than Model S) but it lacks environmental protection. I'd be real tempted to run one of your boards in a nice sealed controller. Maybe Volt, Prius, Leaf? Which one has enough room inside to close and seal up with your board? Or should we make custom drop in versions of the board for certain controllers? I'm guessing you are busy with getting them running well first, but closing up the boxes may be something to consider as you move forward.
> ...


Thank you for your kind words - I'm very excited about this project. I've done many industrial, scientific and even medical projects, but it was never "my" project - always a work for someone.

From now on I'll be using the word we, as a friend of mine is helping me to push this the last step. We are making the UMC Drive much smaller. It will have exactly the same form factor as the Tesla Model S motor controller. No more LaunchPads or other snap-on modules, just one small PCB with everything. As Jack from EVTV correctly stated on his website - there are other much more common, cheaper and useful inverters than the Tesla one out there for this application. I want the board to fit in them, so everything can be enclosed as it was originally.

Of course it is impossible to use the same pinouts on my board as it was on the original ones (there are just too many!). So some pigtails have to be made - but we are talking about few wires by following an excel table how to interconnect them, so really easy. But at the end the external interface is always the same, the list of supported motors is always the same. You are right that making sure of compatibility with different inverters takes A LOT of my development time. I could have had a purely Prius or Volt controller for sale for several months now. But it is an investment that will pay off in the future.

Okay, so much for keeping my threads clean - but truth is that there was always a lot of overlap, so I guess it's okay.

On the topic - Jack verified for me the parking pawl mystery:
"I did look at our parking pawl. We don't have one. There is a parking brake but it is done with calipers on other wheels. The place where your parking pawl was has a round hole in the casting, but it has a bottom in it. Apparently they can drill this out or not as they need. "


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## Hollie Maea (Dec 9, 2009)

Well, Jack reckons I'm ignorant for raising concerns about hacking the Superchargers, so full steam ahead!

Be careful, Colin.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Jack Rickard:


> Long term, we are actually hoping to carry the Elias controller board as one of our products.


Hoping we can buy direct and not have to deal with Jack and the EVTV "Highest Price Guarantee"


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## eldis (Sep 3, 2013)

JRP3 said:


> Jack Rickard:
> 
> Hoping we can buy direct and not have to deal with Jack and the EVTV "Highest Price Guarantee"


There will be a direct buy option  I'm not giving "exclusivity" to anyone.


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## rochesterricer (Jan 5, 2011)

I almost died laughing at the first paragraph of this article:

http://www.autoblog.com/2015/06/23/evtv-hacks-tesla-drivetrain-video/

"Electric Vehicle Television (EVTV) prides itself on producing some of the most boring video content available on the internet. Truly, unless you have a passion for electric vehicles, learning how they work and how to build them, it more closely resembles a sleep aid than entertainment. "


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## nimblemotors (Oct 1, 2010)

What I died laughing about was this:



> With this victory, Rickard tells AutoblogGreen that he expects to see Tesla motors and inverters finding new homes within the chassis of custom EVs within months


Having fun at Rickard's expense is one thing, building a fully functional EV is quite another.



rochesterricer said:


> I almost died laughing at the first paragraph of this article:
> 
> http://www.autoblog.com/2015/06/23/evtv-hacks-tesla-drivetrain-video/
> 
> "Electric Vehicle Television (EVTV) prides itself on producing some of the most boring video content available on the internet. Truly, unless you have a passion for electric vehicles, learning how they work and how to build them, it more closely resembles a sleep aid than entertainment. "


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## CKidder (Dec 12, 2009)

rochesterricer said:


> I almost died laughing at the first paragraph of this article:
> 
> http://www.autoblog.com/2015/06/23/evtv-hacks-tesla-drivetrain-video/
> 
> "Electric Vehicle Television (EVTV) prides itself on producing some of the most boring video content available on the internet. Truly, unless you have a passion for electric vehicles, learning how they work and how to build them, it more closely resembles a sleep aid than entertainment. "


Ahahaha, yeah, the weekly videos are getting increasingly technical as time goes on. It's only going to get worse. I wouldn't call the videos entertainment. They're educational and some people like that. But, maybe Jack could hire some pretty girls and have them juggle or something if that would make things more entertaining for people.


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## PStechPaul (May 1, 2012)

I have at least tried to sit through a few of his videos, and sometimes they are interesting (parts of them, anyway), but it's hard to find the really educational (or exciting/interesting) parts. Maybe it already exists, but a companion script, or an index, would be very helpful in selecting parts that are applicable to a specific topic. Otherwise, much of it seems like listening to a couple of geezers playing checkers and talking about how tall the corn is.


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## CKidder (Dec 12, 2009)

PStechPaul said:


> I have at least tried to sit through a few of his videos, and sometimes they are interesting (parts of them, anyway), but it's hard to find the really educational (or exciting/interesting) parts. Maybe it already exists, but a companion script, or an index, would be very helpful in selecting parts that are applicable to a specific topic. Otherwise, much of it seems like listening to a couple of geezers playing checkers and talking about how tall the corn is.


Ask and ye shall receive:

http://evtvindex.blogspot.com/

Yes, an index of the shows really exists which tells you where the "good" parts are.


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## Hollie Maea (Dec 9, 2009)

It's not the technical aspects that make the show boring--those are for most people the most interesting parts. The show is boring because he talks slowly, takes forever to get to the point and adds a lot of filler that most people don't care about.

If I had nothing else to do, I could probably reedit a show down to about 20 interesting minutes--without cutting any content out.


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## eldis (Sep 3, 2013)

Guys, lets return to the topic - Colin could you write here some of your findings related to the Tesla drivetrain so far? I know that Jack said in the last video that he will not make any information about the CAN control public, as he intends to sell the control unit with a drivetrain as a package. But maybe some more general things about construction or some fun facts could be shared here?

I vaguely remember that Jack did put it on a scale, and the whole Tesla drivetrain is around 135 kg. That's even less than what I estimated when we were transporting it on my "maple table" (read as wooden floor of my tiny flat).

There is a comparable drivetrain designed by a Swiss company Brusa 
http://www.brusa.eu/en/products/drive/drivetrain-units/dtdo1.html

Also having ~310kW, bit less reduction ratio 1:5.5 and a weight of 148kg. They use two motors, and the configuration looks exactly the same as the Tesla drivetrain - but instead of one cylinder being an inverter, Brusa has a motor from each side. The given weight seems to be without those two inverters needed for the operation - they seem to weight 15kg each. 
So that would put this drivetrain at 148+15+15 = 178 kg. A bit havier than Tesla's 135kg, but not too much.

If I would know that so many people will see my video (over 10 000 views already!), I would have put more care into making it. Too late now.. But it did reveal several cool things - many people sent me emails, giving me feedback, asking if they can buy it. And some telling me that they have bought a crashed Tesla and about their struggle in reusing parts or fixing them.

The interesting message for me in Jack's video was the fact that you cannot just reuse the drivetrain by replaying the CAN bus from a different unit - it works only once, and then it refuses to spin again. You have to turn everything off and on again. Jack didn't mention if this "first run" shown on the video is actually a proper operation, or some limp mode to get you home.

So there is a serial number hidden in the CAN bus. I don't want to underestimate the EVTV hack team, and I hope they will sort it out soon. It might be a bit tricky - even if you do know which packet is the serial number, you still don't know which number to send. If it is just 16 bit, you have 65 536 combinations to try. And between them you have to power cycle your drivetrain to see if it worked. And you do have to do that for every drivetrain you buy. I guess it is too soon to make any presumptions on this.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Just a general tip for any video you might find a bit too slow paced, under "settings", (the little gear icon), on a youtube video you can select 1.5 and 2 times playback speed, or download it and play it at any speed with VLC player. And of course you can just jump ahead past someone describing how to do a brake job or something if that's not interesting to you


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## rochesterricer (Jan 5, 2011)

Looks like the news sites have found your video:

http://insideevs.com/tesla-model-s-electric-motor-gets-hacked-video/


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## rixo (Jan 8, 2016)

eldis said:


> kennybobby, the Direct Torque Control actually sounds about right, as I found very hardcore phase current measurement system in the inverter. Every other manufacturer uses hall effect sensors to measure the phase current (two or three), but Tesla designed a bus bar that has a small section made from less pure / more resistive material, and soldered a voltage drop sensor on top of it.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Nice topic and great project. 
I am wondering how this current sensor is exactly working! Is it using an isolated delta sigma modulator (e.g. AMC1304)? And have you managed to read out the sensor with your hardware?


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## eldis (Sep 3, 2013)

rixo said:


> Nice topic and great project.
> I am wondering how this current sensor is exactly working! Is it using an isolated delta sigma modulator (e.g. AMC1304)? And have you managed to read out the sensor with your hardware?


Thanks. Yes, isolated sigma-delta. Made it run, was a bit tricky. I can write a 'story' about it later.


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## rixo (Jan 8, 2016)

eldis said:


> Thanks. Yes, isolated sigma-delta. Made it run, was a bit tricky. I can write a 'story' about it later.


When you have time that would be great. In-phase current measurement with a shunt at this high currents is an interesting topic. I think it is also a quiet compact solution compared with hall sensors.


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## mikeleng (Jul 24, 2015)

Hi guys,

can somebody give me some informations about the igbt - driver which are used in the Tesla inverter. I need the manufacturer and label information.
It would be great if somebody can help me. 

Thx a lot.

Best regards
Mike


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## mikeleng (Jul 24, 2015)

Hi,

enclosed a picture of the both driver - chips of these i need the 
component label.

Thank you!


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## Karter2 (Nov 17, 2011)

Is there any truth in the report that Tesla do not actually make or own the design of these motors ?
Reported to be supplied by Fukuta Electric & m/c Co. In Taiwan
http://wmkelleher.com/2015/10/elon-musk-and-tesla-motors-secret-motor-supplier/


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

AC motor design is old technology - not sure that there is anything new there,
The valuable information is in exactly how to manufacture them and that information is almost always owned by the manufacturer 

As far as supplying to other companies is concerned that is more to do with your supply agreement than anything else


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## Karter2 (Nov 17, 2011)

Everything i have read up to this, has lead me to think that Tesla designed and manufactured their own motors.
But that report suggests they simply buy them in from an existing motor manUfacturer/supplier.
Can i believe it ?


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Karter2 said:


> Is there any truth in the report that Tesla do not actually make or own the design of these motors ?
> Reported to be supplied by Fukuta Electric & m/c Co. In Taiwan
> http://wmkelleher.com/2015/10/elon-musk-and-tesla-motors-secret-motor-supplier/


This guy is a ridiculous troll, we debunked him thoroughly on TMC. Simply, Fukuta supplies motor parts, Tesla winds and assembles the actual motors, as can be seen in a number of Tesla factory videos.


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## Karter2 (Nov 17, 2011)

JRP3 said:


> This guy is a ridiculous troll, we debunked him thoroughly on TMC. Simply, Fukuta supplies motor parts, Tesla winds and assembles the actual motors, as can be seen in a number of Tesla factory videos.


Do you know which parts Fukuta supply ?, Rotors, bare stators, casings, ?
Tesla seem to be doing the most labour intensive part of the motor,...winding, packing and assembly ....odd ?


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## eldis (Sep 3, 2013)

mikeleng said:


> Hi,
> 
> enclosed a picture of the both driver - chips of these i need the
> component label.
> ...


The IGBT driver chips are Infineon 1ED020I12FA


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Karter2 said:


> Do you know which parts Fukuta supply ?, Rotors, bare stators, casings, ?
> Tesla seem to be doing the most labour intensive part of the motor,...winding, packing and assembly ....odd ?



I don't think it's odd, Tesla builds the motors from parts from different companies. I think Fukuta supplies the rotor, and maybe the motor case.


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## Karter2 (Nov 17, 2011)

Not odd that they do assembly, but odd that they chose to do the most labour intensive assembly task of what could easily be a completly bought in unit.
Asian labour would be much cheaper than SoCal union rates .


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## onegreenev (May 18, 2012)

Could be Tesla has their own special wire to wire them up with. Maybe special way to wire them up and maybe they can wind them better and tighter. Giving them the edge over generic motors that are not done under their control. I'd bet its mostly a control issue. Quality Control that is. 

Pete


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

Karter2 said:


> Not odd that they do assembly, but odd that they chose to do the most labour intensive assembly task of what could easily be a completly bought in unit.
> Asian labour would be much cheaper than SoCal union rates .


But would it?
A few years ago I attended a presentation - at that time somebody like a maintenance technician would have been paid MORE in Shanghai than NZ

Rice farmer? sure you can pay peanuts

Actual technician capable of operating the machines that actually do the winding?
Could well be cheaper in SoCal

If you think about it you have castings that are machined - and then you have the windings

Casting the metal and machining it is the sort of thing that thousands of companies have expertise on - and its not specific
But the windings - they are going to be specific so ending up with the expertise to make them would make sense
The other thing is for a specialized part it really helps to have the manufacturing and development arms nice and close


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## aeroscott (Jan 5, 2008)

Back when Tesla was starting out 2004 or so they had their car at a ev show in Palo Alto. I talked with their motor guy and he said they liked to do work that they didn't want the competition to see themselves .And that it wouldn't
stop the competition but slow them down.


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## Karter2 (Nov 17, 2011)

Duncan said:


> But would it?
> A few years ago I attended a presentation - at that time somebody like a maintenance technician would have been paid MORE in Shanghai than NZ
> 
> Rice farmer? sure you can pay peanuts
> ...


 Hmm ? That is a very different view point to most economists .
I suspect there are more motors wound in Asia than in the rest of the world combined, Not much they dont know about Emachine design.


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

Hi Karter
Skilled worker pay?
The Japanese used to work cheap - as did the Germans 
Nowadays - they get a lot better pay than the USA

The coastal cities - Shanghai for instance are going down that path

You want to go somewhere where skilled labour is cheap? - then you are going to be going somewhere where all of the background knowledge is missing

I worked for a company that tried that - total disaster it took years to bring them up to speed

More motors wound - probably - but I'm not sure that that is relevant

If you have lots of companies doing the same thing that they have been doing for years they don't necessarily have to be good at it - they could be simply using the techniques they have used for donkeys years

Or did you mean the "manufacturing and development arms" bit?

Yes a lot of pointy headed accountants don't understand just how much benefit you can get from having the two close together

Engineers do understand - design and manufacturing work best together, understanding how something is made or can be made at the design stage can yield major benefits
Designing for manufacturing as well as operation

I suspect that Musk is smart enough to want to keep some of the expertise in house and also smart enough to know that he is not nearly big enough to keep all of the expertise in house and that for instance the casting technology is better at his supplier


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## aeroscott (Jan 5, 2008)

aeroscott said:


> Back when Tesla was starting out 2004 or so they had their car at a ev show in Palo Alto. I talked with their motor guy and he said they liked to do work that they didn't want the competition to see themselves .And that it wouldn't
> stop the competition but slow them down.


 His specific example was the stater could be outsourced ,because they were not doing anything unusual with it. but the armature which they were developing ever changing ideas on, would do themselves .


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## Karter2 (Nov 17, 2011)

aeroscott said:


> His specific example was the stater could be outsourced ,because they were not doing anything unusual with it. but the armature which they were developing ever changing ideas on, would do themselves .


I believe your quote, but again setting up a "copper casting" facility for rotors doesnt ring true for a Cal based production unit.
Most casting industries have gone to more "friendly" industrial lands.
Also..
From the Copper industry...
http://www.coppermotor.com/2012/04/...e-better-solution-to-power-electric-vehicles/


> ...OEMS are looking for alternatives
> Fukuta Electric & Machinery Co. in Taiwan has collaborated with Tesla Motors on the development of a copper rotor induction motor for Tesla’s electric Roadster.
> 
> “Right now it appears that the future trend will be for electric vehicles to rely more on copper rotor motors,” Gordon Chang, Fukuta’s founder and general manager, says in the video. “We have seen that Tesla’s copper rotor motors haven’t had any problems during the nearly four years that they have been out on the market. This is sufficient proof that this product is able to pass the so-called four-year field test.”...


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## cmp1 (Mar 15, 2016)

Since the last time it was discussed has anyone had the chance to open up the gear box at all? We are looking to disengage the differential somehow and was hoping for recommendations. We will be using our motor for as a marine ev conversion and only need to be able to connect it to one propeller shaft rather then two shafts going to tires. Welding shut or locking up one differential isnt ideal in case it causes damage to the overall system. 

Any ideas would be welcome!


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## eldis (Sep 3, 2013)

cmp1 said:


> Since the last time it was discussed has anyone had the chance to open up the gear box at all? We are looking to disengage the differential somehow and was hoping for recommendations. We will be using our motor for as a marine ev conversion and only need to be able to connect it to one propeller shaft rather then two shafts going to tires. Welding shut or locking up one differential isnt ideal in case it causes damage to the overall system.
> 
> Any ideas would be welcome!












You can open yours and find out  it will not be a destructive process, if you put a new seal afterwards (this liquid rubber-like substance).


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## boekel (Nov 10, 2010)

cmp1 said:


> Since the last time it was discussed has anyone had the chance to open up the gear box at all? We are looking to disengage the differential somehow and was hoping for recommendations. We will be using our motor for as a marine ev conversion and only need to be able to connect it to one propeller shaft rather then two shafts going to tires. Welding shut or locking up one differential isnt ideal in case it causes damage to the overall system.
> 
> Any ideas would be welcome!


You might go the same way I did with a Borg-Warner gearbox:
http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showthread.php?t=117849

That way you can have a significantly bigger output shaft than the original shafts.


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## eldis (Sep 3, 2013)

Fukuta said:


> Because Tesla uses Fukuta motors - see
> http://portexaminer.com/search.php?search-field-1=shipper&search-term-1=FUKUTA
> This article list Fukuta as a supplier https://translate.google.com/transl...gId=tysmyasset&logNo=220719571446&prev=search
> 
> ...


They might be shipping some small part, like machined rotor or something.. I've posted many photos of Tesla internals, including all the inverter parts. Look up a video about Tesla manufacturing, you will see the motors and windings being done in the Tesla factory, not shipped in completed.

I've seen tons of Tesla logos on internal parts. Please show us some Fukuta logo in there, or a real proof. What you've posted looks like some non related articles. For all I know, Tesla might be buying from them windshield wiper motors, and they are trying to present it like they are the supplier of the entire drivetrain.


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## Karter2 (Nov 17, 2011)

Logo 's etc on parts or components, even internally on motor rotors etc, doesnt really tell much.
It can be standard practice for a company to insist a supplier marks all components with the end users logo, or for a company ti inspect and add a logo to supplied parts before assembly/installation.
Often the only way to find who was the original manufacturer is to trace a component ID code, part number, bar code, etc using a confidential reference log to cross reference the supply chain.
Having said that , it is essential that all components have full traceability back to source.


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## palmer_md (Jul 22, 2011)

Lets not go down this path again. This subject has been thoroughly discussed at the Tesla Motors Club forum, and if you wish to discuss the source of the motor please do so in that thread, or at a minimum another thread on this forum, but lets keep this thread on topic. Folks "playing" with the motor in their home workshops.

https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/threads/fukuta-supply-role-to-tesla.57299/


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## matchke (Jun 26, 2017)

eldis said:


> So last week I've became a proud owner of a Tesla drivetrain:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


The motor is the exact one that is been used in the RWD or Performance versions. The standard Dual motor version uses two weaker motors whereas one such motor is used on the front wheels in Performance model.


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