# Group Harrington 1/2 Scale T35 Bugatti- trying to ID components HELP!



## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

Interesting 
So those are hub motors (with brakes) with 250 W controllers. Using two separate motors avoids the need for a differential, and the motors look like the big drum brakes of a car of the Bugatti's vintage.

The motors and controllers are e-bike stuff, so one of the e-bike enthusiasts here might recognize the components.

When two separate motors are used to drive left and right wheels, the controllers need some sort of coordination. In the Curtis controllers one operates as a master, getting the accelerator pedal signal and telling the slave controller what to do; the master even looks at the steering angle so it knows how much faster the wheel on the outside should be turning than the one on the inside of the turn. The custom electronics in this case presumably provide some form of coordination of the two controller/motor sets.

In some cases a dedicated 12 V battery is used to provide 12 V for the lights, etc., separate from the batteries for the motors, and I have seen listings of this model of Harrington as having two (not three) batteries. In this case, it does look like all three batteries are likely used to provide 36 V (nominally) to the motors, and the transformer on one of the boards might be part of a 36 V to 12 V converter.


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## Unlimited2002q (Apr 25, 2021)

Thanks Brian, that helps break some of it down. I think that it runs 2 batteries behind the seat and 1 just ahead of the smaller board. I have not looked for any steering sensor stuff but will do. So the board with the controller boxes unifies the running (speed) of the two motors as dictated by the throttle and possibly the steering. I will also look to see where the charger port goes to.


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## Unlimited2002q (Apr 25, 2021)

Well, the throttle goes to the main (rear) board and in fact, the two boards do not seem connected to each other. The wiring going up front looks to be for the horn. I am unable to see about the steering but I am doubtful until I can get under the front end to be sure. The charger port has a 3 wire plug going to the main board with the controllers on it. 
Two shots of the throttle, doesn't seem to have a ground but the car is fiberglass.


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## Tobyt (Aug 17, 2021)

Hi, I have one of these which is working very well, although it is very sensitive to battery deterioration and I think needs a new one now. I am no electrical expert, but if I can help you I will - at least I can see what goes where. Do you have a wiring diagram? If not I will try and find mine.


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## Unlimited2002q (Apr 25, 2021)

Hello! That is great as I almost had given up hope of fixing this car. I do not have any documentation for the car and Harrington could not provide anything at all. Sooo many questions to ask you. I do have a supplier of ebike parts here in town but they were no help. I do not know how to wire in the batteries but was thinking of using a separate battery for the lights and horn. Does your car reverse? The switches on the dash are not marked at all. Thanks for taking the time.


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## Tobyt (Aug 17, 2021)

Hi, it's a pity you are so far away so we will have to do everything by correspondence, but let's start with the wiring diagram which I prized out of Harrington a couple of years ago. It should be attached to this reply along with my diagram to remind me how the batteries were linked together. When the batteries are in, the car gets seriously heavy!!
Hope this can get you started. The problem is that our Bugattis were handbuilt to an amazing quality in the UK. They were very expensive but I doubt whether they they made much profit because of the time and materials it would take to construct one. The company went to Vietnam, where presumably costs were lower, and produced a different but very sophisticated range of children's cars - but stopped making the Bugatti.........Whoever actually made those presumably remained in England, no-one in Vietnam knows anything about them now. To be honest I HAVE NOT FOUND ANYONE ANYWHERE IN THE WORLD WHO KNOWS ABOUT THEM, so it's down to us I think. There are very few Bugattis about, but they can command very high prices when they come up for sale, so it is absolutely worth pursuing your restoration. According to my 8 year old grandson they are also enormous fun. I of course cannot get in it.
I have not yet found any dealer in the UK willing to help me with the electricals, but ironically when I needed a charger, the only company who could supply one was in Canada ..... if you need his details let me know.
I will leave you to digest this while I photograph the dashboard - yes it does have reverse, it's one of the switches.


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

Unlimited2002q said:


> I do not know how to wire in the batteries but was thinking of using a separate battery for the lights and horn.


So all three batteries are connected in series for 36 V DC, the "Circuit Board Under Seat" appears to convert 36 V DC to 12 V DC for the lights and horn (so they don't need separate battery), and the "Circuit Board Behind seat Back" coordinates the motor controllers and provides them with "ignition" (run), accelerator, and forward/reverse signals.


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

Tobyt said:


> The problem is that our Bugattis were handbuilt to an amazing quality in the UK. They were very expensive but I doubt whether they they made much profit because of the time and materials it would take to construct one. The company went to Vietnam, where presumably costs were lower, and produced a different but very sophisticated range of children's cars - but stopped making the Bugatti...


That explains why, when I looked into these cars online, I found two distinct generations... and this is the early one.


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## Unlimited2002q (Apr 25, 2021)

Wow- I am still reeling from getting a wiring diagram. I am trying to get the car running for my 8 yr old granddaughter! What troubles me is that when I took it to Canada Electric Vehicles they tested each board and component and found nothing good. They theorized that it was improperly charged at one time damaging it all. The motors may still be salvaged but not sure. I will need to purchase 3 new batteries and a charger so please send along that info you had where you obtained your charger . I think that my car has had almost no use, the fellow I got it from had no kids and it sat in his garage with no batteries in it. One of the easiest parts to access is the speed pedal, so I will be needing a test procedure for that. If I break it down to manageable chunks I can accomplish most repairs. Thanks so much for getting in touch. 

Brian, I too did a deep dive looking for info but I did not get much out of it. Interesting, this electric (2 models) gave way to gasoline powered cars that you allude to. ?


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

Unlimited2002q said:


> Wow- I am still reeling from getting a wiring diagram. I am trying to get the car running for my 8 yr old granddaughter! What troubles me is that when I took it to Canada Electric Vehicles they tested each board and component and found nothing good.


Without a wiring diagram, and given the two custom boards, I wonder if they were able to properly test anything?



Unlimited2002q said:


> Brian, I too did a deep dive looking for info but I did not get much out of it. Interesting, this electric (2 models) gave way to gasoline powered cars that you allude to. ?


It has been a while, but I thought there were early and late generations of the electric cars, with the Bugatti body existing only in the early cars. On the other hand, a NewAtlas article describes the new generation as all gas-powered.


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## Unlimited2002q (Apr 25, 2021)

Yes, the battery shop here in town had a go at it a few years ago and said it would run on the bench but not under load when put on the ground. Who knows how they had it wired as it had no batteries when I took it in. They also "lost" the charger for it. I think I should wire it correctly and try new batts to see what happens!


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## Functional Artist (Aug 8, 2016)

I've reserected a few old electric scooters & such
...most have just needed fresh batteries

So, I'd start with (3) new batteries & a matching 36V charger
...& go from there


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## Tobyt (Aug 17, 2021)

Functional Artist said:


> I've reserected a few old electric scooters & such
> ...most have just needed fresh batteries
> 
> So, I'd start with (3) new batteries & a matching 36V charger
> ...& go from there





Functional Artist said:


> I've reserected a few old electric scooters & such
> ...most have just needed fresh batteries
> 
> So, I'd start with (3) new batteries & a matching 36V charger
> ...& go from there





Functional Artist said:


> I've reserected a few old electric scooters & such
> ...most have just needed fresh batteries
> 
> So, I'd start with (3) new batteries & a matching 36V charger
> ...& go from there


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## Tobyt (Aug 17, 2021)

3 Bits of information 

1) promised photo of dashboard

2) I bought my charger on Ebay from a company called Ecyclepart in Oshawa, Ontario. It was called a "Charger 36V 3A Lead Acid XLR Intelligent Advanced technology Automatic". If you search using that phrase it should come up.

3) The batteries I use are *Lucas LSLC22-12 AGM/GEL Battery 12V 22AH* again bought from Ebay. We had a problem with battery life when we first had the car. None of the e-cycle companies wanted to touch it, but one did say "if you have a problem, start with the batteries." He was right in our case, just one battery lost its charge very quickly, and a new one fixed the problem instantly and dramatically increased the cars speed. Unfortunately their price here has also increased dramatically.

Starting with the batteries is what I would recommend, and I would try and keep it as original as possible. The last one I saw sell went for 10,700 usd at Bonhams and was identical to mine.


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

Tobyt said:


> 3) The batteries I use are *Lucas LSLC22-12 AGM/GEL Battery 12V 22AH...*


Those are tiny - our compact mobility scooter uses two batteries of that type and about that size. But then, the car is tiny, so maybe that's all that can fit in the space.

By the way, AGM and gel are two different electrolyte technologies used in "sealed" (or valve-regulated) lead-acid batteries - it's one or the other, not both, but some suppliers may list them together (because they don't care which one it is). This listing shows an actual Lucas LSLC22-12 and describes it as AGM... which is probably what you want rather than gel: Lucas LSLC22-12 BATTERY 12v 22ah Mobility
There are many brands of this size and style of battery.


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## Unlimited2002q (Apr 25, 2021)

Thanks so much for the pic and info. I will set about sourcing a charger and new batteries. There are no tie downs in the car that I am aware of for the batteries so I will also need to figure out a way to secure them as well. I will report back on my progress. Even though I am retired the shop is still full of work somehow!


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## Unlimited2002q (Apr 25, 2021)

Tobyt- I have almost gathered the power stuff and will be doing the wiring sort out soon. Can you confirm the single wire that comes off the front (small) board connects to the first terminal of the rear (large) board? Right beside the charger port plug. The wiring diagram shows it as a white wire annotated as going to yellow /black, if you know what I mean


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## Tobyt (Aug 17, 2021)

Now the embarassing bit - I am no electrician and I cannot see the exact translation of that wiring diagram to my car, although I can see similarities. While I try and unscramble what goes where, I have attached a photo of my main board and the box of tricks under the seat which may or may not be the other one. Hopefully between us we can work it all out.


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## Tobyt (Aug 17, 2021)

I have looked again and I see two holes in the floor which seem to correspond to the mounting points of that circuit board in your photos. So it seems I am missing that - and instead have that small black box. Does anyone know what that is?


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## Unlimited2002q (Apr 25, 2021)

Not to worry! I am no electrician myself but having something that works to look at really helps! Your board is a bit different, but I can follow most of it. My small board under the seat has a plexi plastic cover but no harness plug in at all. What my car does have is the same system set up as per the wiring diagram. Currently ( no pun sorry) I am checking all the origins and termination points for each wire/plug to the boards. I do have the single wire from the small board that presumably goes to the "key" terminal of the big board. 
I do not have the black cylinder next to the box either, no idea what that one is...... thanks for the help, it's like you said about translating the info-


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## Unlimited2002q (Apr 25, 2021)

One last question of the universe- is there any special order to hooking up the battery wires? Just about ready to try it out. Thanks!


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## Tobyt (Aug 17, 2021)

Good question, never thought about it before. I usually put the earths first, but I am no expert.


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## Unlimited2002q (Apr 25, 2021)

Well, we gave it a go yesterday and got nothing back in return for our efforts. Huge sparks when making the last connection. Took the meter to the small board and found one terminal caused needle to bottom out in all cases. Removed small board and tried again, same results. Removed speed control, left and right controllers and did not get any better ideas. So my original tactic was to buy a DYI kit and install that hoping the motors are still viable.


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## Tobyt (Aug 17, 2021)

What a pity, I wish I could give some more intelligent suggestions but I not able to. It's odd that mine has had that smaller board replaced - presumably it also caused a problem. Unfortunately I cannot tell you what that small replacement part is, but I will take it off and see if it has any identification on it.


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## Unlimited2002q (Apr 25, 2021)

Thanks for all the support! I will return with an update when something happens.


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## Unlimited2002q (Apr 25, 2021)

Oh yeah, the charger arrived today from Ontario- thanks for the referral. Got a 36v 3A with the plug I needed. Good seller.


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## Tobyt (Aug 17, 2021)

This is the black box of tricks that you can see in my last photo sat on the floor in front of the main control panel. I do not know what it is, and now I have taken it off I can see it is labelled in Chinese! However presumably we can surmise that it changes the voltage from 48v(?) to 12v or vice versa. It would be great if someone could recognise it.


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## Tobyt (Aug 17, 2021)

And having studied EBAY at great length it looks very much like a "step down converter" - There are plenty of them for sale very cheaply. Unfortunately they seem to vary particularly in output voltage and I cannot determine which one mine is at present. But is this simply a replacement for the small circuit board? If so it simply steps down the voltage for various things on the dashboard according to the wiring diagram, and that looks very similar to my wiring. Is this a red herring??


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## dedlast (Aug 17, 2013)

Quote: However presumably we can surmise that it changes the voltage from 48v(?) to 12v or vice versa. It would be great if someone could recognise it.

You are correct. According to Google translate this is a 48V voltage regulator.Second line says, " Red 48V Yellow 12V". The third line says "Black" and possibly the manufacturing date. The last line is the manufacturer name, "Taizhu Yixin Electronics Co., Ltd".


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## Tobyt (Aug 17, 2021)

Thank you - the picture now is clearer. The second circuit board appears to be solely a step down voltage converter and because it has, according to the wiring diagram, a 10 amp fuse, I would surmise that it is a 120w version. This means the board is probably easily and cheaply replaced. The bad news is that it only controls the lights and the horn, so disconnecting the original board should make no difference to the running of the motors.
That leaves the main circuit board, two controllers or 2 motors as the likely culprits. If the problem is the main circuit board, (and you have had it tested with results that were not encouraging) it does feel as though its a job for a good electrician as that feels quite tricky to sort, although it looks to be largely a distribution board.
You can get inexpensive devices to test controllers, again on Ebay. It would perhaps be unlikely for both controllers to pack up though - could you wire so that you test just one side at a time? 
DAOO are I think the makers of the controllers and are alive and well in China (DAAO Electric (JiangSu) Co., Ltd.). If it comes to it they may be able to help eg in getting a replacement. I have found Chinese companies to be very responsive to my e-mails in English.
Sorry you may have already thought about all this, but I am trying to learn about them too.
Good luck


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## Unlimited2002q (Apr 25, 2021)

Thanks- good reminder about DAOO as I looked them up quite a while ago and found similar controller available still. I have stripped down the car to just the axle and the two motors. Will need to search how to test a ebike hub motor. I can not see any info on the motors at all. Really hoping to keep them mounted as is.


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## Unlimited2002q (Apr 25, 2021)

Well, got a ebike analyzer off Amanzon to check motors and controlers, great gizmo however none of the plugs matched my set up. Back to square one it seems.


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## Unlimited2002q (Apr 25, 2021)

Tobyt- have you ever had a wheel off your car? I am not too sure about how that works, but I am going to try to remove the motors next. The larger board does indeed seem to facilitate running the two motors off one speed control. Thanks!


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## Tobyt (Aug 17, 2021)

Sorry never had a wheel off so I would be interested to see what you find. As I understand it a motor will not run without a controller, have you had any joy with testing them?
I have a problem now that mine seems to run out of steam very quickly after a charge. It goes into limp mode - intermittent power - yet the batteries still seem to be showing 12v each. Very odd.


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## Tobyt (Aug 17, 2021)

Not sure I have ever understood how everything is earthed. The 2 earth wires from the rear battery just go to terminals on the main circuit board and the voltage converter respectively, just as on the wiring diagram. Unfortunately mine has an additional wire from that main circuit board terminal, but it ends in insulating tape and goes nowhere. So is that main circuit board earthed? Did you see that when you took it off? If so it's not obvious how, and I suspect that loose wire is someone else's attempt to apply a further earth somewhere......


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## Unlimited2002q (Apr 25, 2021)

Center hub cap is threaded, knocked it loose with a screwdriver and hammer, then ran it off by hand. De-mount the wheel rim acorn nuts and separate spokes. Loosen fender screws and pull off rim/tire and spokes. Will post pics later. 
As for your limp mode I would suspect batteries/charging scenario. As I understand it you must re-charge batteries right away and do not run them down too far. Newer controlers will shut down the operation to avoid this. 
I could not find a true "earth" for the boards either. However, mine did have a wire going from the small board to the mainboard as shown in the diagram. It is soldered to an unmarked point on the small board and should be attached to mainboard wire terminal "key" left side motor terminal .


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## Unlimited2002q (Apr 25, 2021)




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## Unlimited2002q (Apr 25, 2021)




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## Tobyt (Aug 17, 2021)

Hi, Any joy since we last spoke???


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## Unlimited2002q (Apr 25, 2021)

I had put up an update post but I don't see it! Still stuck with local ebike shops uninterested in helping out. If they did not sell it they won't service it. I am now hoping to install a single 36V 500w system to replace the original if I can find one that will work with the brakes. Kinda at a stand still presently.


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## Tobyt (Aug 17, 2021)

I have had the same problem with e-bike and electric wheelchair specialists. I was advised to try one of those one many auto electricians who advertise locally ...... and who might be a little more imaginative. Fortunately I did not need one - my problem was battery again. I have to learn that all three need to be in tip top condition, charging to an indicated 14V or thereabouts, before it will run cleanly. Then it goes very well. Now I need to look at the brakes, which are barely adequate.
I often wonder where all the other Harrington Bugattis are - there is very little about them on the internet, and they are getting quite old now. They will of course have been outgrown by the children for whom they were intended, so I suspect there are many non-runners in the corners of garages. We seem to be the only people on the planet trying to understand them. 
I really hope you have success with yours so that we can all learn how to keep them going, .... and they are great fun then, for adults and children.


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