# Re: [EVDL] 100+ new Li Battery companies



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] 100+ new Li Battery companies*



> Idgit wrote:
> > Dozens of new Li ion, ironphosphate, and polymer battery companies in China,
> > where lawyers and warranties haven't quite settled in. How are we going to
> > sort through all of these?
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] 100+ new Li Battery companies*



> Dan Frederiksen wrote:
> ...
> > why would they add supercaps? a 15kWh pack should have plenty of power
> 
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] 100+ new Li Battery companies*



> Metric Mind wrote:
> > Battery capacity have no direct relation to its power. I had 96 crappy
> > TS cells in CRX and had to suplement it with capacitor bank precisely for the
> > reason of low power,
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] 100+ new Li Battery companies*

Let's say for example that somewhere in that list is the perfect EV
battery. Cheap, powerful, and available. OK. Now we have the
battery. What do you do about the BMS?

You've just purchased 75,000 18650 cells. How do you plan on
assembling your pack?

Our magic battery will arrive. What about the two other issues?

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] 100+ new Li Battery companies*

Thanks Victor.

Could you give a quick rehash of how capacitors help battery packs, in lay
terms? I get electron flow in circuits, magnetic fields and motors, but
caps evade me. How do they help in EV power and when? I know you have a
lot of experience using them, and the fact that the Yesa manufacturer
offered them up in my pack design surprised me. Maybe they are soon coming
as a standard booster, do you think so?

Your words are much appreciated,
Idgit


Battery capacity have no direct relation to its power. I had 96 crappy 
TS cells
in CRX and had to suplement it with capacitor bank precisely for the 
reason of low power
-- 
View this message in context: http://www.nabble.com/100%2B-new-Li-Battery-companies-tp15162187p15174289.html
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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] 100+ new Li Battery companies*

Pack Builders...


http://www.mpoweruk.com/

http://www.boundlesscorporation.com/

http://www.modenergy.com/index.html

http://www.micro-power.com/default.asp?id=9

http://www.advancedlithium.com/about.html

http://enerdel.com/content/view/38/59/

http://www.nexergy.com/default.htm







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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] 100+ new Li Battery companies*



> Idgit wrote:
> > Thanks Victor.
> >
> > Could you give a quick rehash of how capacitors help battery packs,
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] 100+ new Li Battery companies*

It's getting clearer now. A battery's capacity is how much energy it can
store. It's power is how much and how fast that energy can be delivered. 
If the battery is poorly made, with high internal resistance, energy will be
lost as heat in the battery, so power delivered to the motor is weakened,
especially when needed quickly.

Capacitors act as a low resistance 'second battery', with quick delivery of
power when needed. They also reduce the sharp peaks and troughs of battery
current draw, the 'strain' on the battery, so it's life is extended, and
more energy can ultimately be extracted from the battery by the capacitors
treating it gently, right?

Also, a supercapacitor bank has to be matched correctly to the driving
style, like a battery pack as well. Those articles were helpful, especially
this one http://www.metricmind.com/misc/supercaps_in_force.pdf in showing
efficiency gains, or losses from caps.

Just for ballpark figures, how many WH's is a typical supercap bank for say
a 2200# commuter EV, DC system, without regen braking, how much do they
cost, and how costly to integrate with a Lithium pack? I know there are
many variables here, but just ballpark info.

Many thanks.
Idgit
-- 
View this message in context: http://www.nabble.com/100%2B-new-Li-Battery-companies-tp15162187p15183438.html
Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] 100+ new Li Battery companies*

We measured those in 24th september 2004.

-Jukka


Metric Mind kirjoitti:
> http://www.metricmind.com/misc/compare.gif
> 
> I think this data is more than 5 years old by now.
> Jukka, do you remember when did we do these tests?
> 
> Here is comparison study which was done on Solectria Force to evaluate
> impact of the caps and if it worth it. You may learn something new there:
> http://www.metricmind.com/misc/supercaps_in_force.pdf
> 
> 
> --
> Victor
> '91 ACRX - something different

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] 100+ new Li Battery companies*

do any of them make lithium iron packs below 1$/Wh?



> [email protected] wrote:
> > Pack Builders...
> > http://www.mpoweruk.com/
> > http://www.boundlesscorporation.com/
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] 100+ new Li Battery companies*

Now, now.. do not forget me from the list 
(AD !)

www.fevt.com

-Jukka


[email protected] kirjoitti:
> Pack Builders...
> 
> 
> http://www.mpoweruk.com/
> 
> http://www.boundlesscorporation.com/
> 
> http://www.modenergy.com/index.html
> 
> http://www.micro-power.com/default.asp?id=9
> 
> http://www.advancedlithium.com/about.html
> 
> http://enerdel.com/content/view/38/59/
> 
> http://www.nexergy.com/default.htm
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _____________________________________________________________
> Save hundreds on getting a Web Design Degree. Click here.
> http://thirdpartyoffers.netzero.net/TGL2221/fc/Ioyw6i4vCsYTOOnhI8ijXwXeHI6LFIjPa2TttHMxfzAVaCM0R2WKon/
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] 100+ new Li Battery companies*

On Thu, Jan 31, 2008 at 06:04:28AM +0200, Jukka J?rvinen wrote:
> Now, now.. do not forget me from the list 
> (AD !)
> 
> www.fevt.com
> 
> -Jukka
> 
> 
> [email protected] kirjoitti:
> > Pack Builders...
> > 
> > 
> > http://www.mpoweruk.com/
> > 
> > http://www.boundlesscorporation.com/
> > 
> > http://www.modenergy.com/index.html
> > 
> > http://www.micro-power.com/default.asp?id=9
> > 
> > http://www.advancedlithium.com/about.html
> > 
> > http://enerdel.com/content/view/38/59/
> > 
> > http://www.nexergy.com/default.htm

Maybe someone will explain to me the difficulties of developing and 
selling off-the-shelf battery packs, complete with BMS and chargers, 
to EV hobbyists. It seems to me that we need some standardization. 
Voltage and maybe pack dimensions. It seems to me that short term (a 
year) demand should be hundreds or perhaps thousands. 2-3 term demand 
might be thousands or perhaps tens of thousands. Of course, I'm 
thinking of some Lithium chemistry maybe in modules of 100-200lb and 
10+KWH.

I have read that ZENN has the rights to EESTOR use in retrofits. Think 
about being able to turn your (certain list of models) ICE car over to 
a local converter and having a reliable and predictable result.

Is that the direction Jukka is going?

-- 
Willie, ONWARD! Through the fog!
http://counter.li.org Linux registered user #228836 since 1995
Debian3.1/GNU/Linux system uptime 47 days 2 hours 19 minutes

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] 100+ new Li Battery companies*

well... I'm looking in to web based design system that allows users make =

their own setups. Then online pay and just press send. After few weeks =

you get the product YOU designed to your doorstep.

My CCS is designed to be very modular and versatile. Just to make =

conveting more easier and fun than EVer.

This is how I solved the issues:
http://v3.espacenet.com/textdes?DB=3DEPODOC&IDX=3DWO2007128876&F=3D0&QPN=3D=
WO2007128876

So you take a module with fast connects. It includes cell and =

electronics (low cost, high volume IC-based thingy). You build up the =

modules as you wish. Then add charger and other related modules you =

need. Voil=E1. A system that sits on your vehicle like a glove.

My goal was originally to make a system just for my own vehicles and for =

our family delivery company. At best days there were about 100 vehicles =

in our fleet. Ah.. memories...

So this was...long, long, long, time ago (1998-1999). Then my father =

died and company was taken over by other owners. And they did not share =

my enhusiasm about EVs...... Dah ! All this work for nothing ???

Nope.

I have then aimed also to make it so produceable that you can get the =

spare parts from your local shops. Or over web. System HW cost has to be =

low and generic.

The biggest hurdle was to get the net costs in reasonable level. I knew =

from the beginnig that with proper management + TS cells we could make =

it. An that is nearly ture 

After some time of hassling with braking cells I started to blabber =

about making cells in Finland to get it done independently and with our =

own QC. I think first talks with big W was in 2004 about this. We are =

still on that road. But nearer than ever to achieve it. Luckily I got =

trained in TS how the cells are made.

Now electronics is not a problem but getting lisences LFP cells is.

So solving one problem at time seems to be the only way.... Sorry about =

the delays.

rgrds
Jukka

p.s.- opensource Finnish EV project: www.sahkoautot.fi

Willie McKemie kirjoitti:
> On Thu, Jan 31, 2008 at 06:04:28AM +0200, Jukka J?rvinen wrote:
>> Now, now.. do not forget me from the list 
>> (AD !)
>>
>> www.fevt.com
>>
>> -Jukka
>>
>>
>> [email protected] kirjoitti:
>>> Pack Builders...
>>>
>>>
>>> http://www.mpoweruk.com/
>>>
>>> http://www.boundlesscorporation.com/
>>>
>>> http://www.modenergy.com/index.html
>>>
>>> http://www.micro-power.com/default.asp?id=3D9
>>>
>>> http://www.advancedlithium.com/about.html
>>>
>>> http://enerdel.com/content/view/38/59/
>>>
>>> http://www.nexergy.com/default.htm
> =

> Maybe someone will explain to me the difficulties of developing and =

> selling off-the-shelf battery packs, complete with BMS and chargers, =

> to EV hobbyists. It seems to me that we need some standardization. =

> Voltage and maybe pack dimensions. It seems to me that short term (a =

> year) demand should be hundreds or perhaps thousands. 2-3 term demand =

> might be thousands or perhaps tens of thousands. Of course, I'm =

> thinking of some Lithium chemistry maybe in modules of 100-200lb and =

> 10+KWH.
> =

> I have read that ZENN has the rights to EESTOR use in retrofits. Think =

> about being able to turn your (certain list of models) ICE car over to =

> a local converter and having a reliable and predictable result.
> =

> Is that the direction Jukka is going?

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] 100+ new Li Battery companies*



> --- Idgit <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> >
> http://www.metricmind.com/misc/supercaps_in_force.pdf
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] 100+ new Li Battery companies*



> Jeff Major wrote:
> >
> > Well, there is no "typical supercap bank". The
> > article explains a lot. They had a 82 Watt-hour bank.
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] 100+ new Li Battery companies*

>From the http://www.fevt.com/pro.html website.
"Products
Energy Storing Solutions:

EnergyPacktm (EP) is a complete energy storing solution for industrial use.
This product line consists of Lithium batteries, chargers, and a computer
system which communicates and adjusts the chargers, sealed casing and few
optional devices (Bluetooth adapter, GPS-module, MP3 player, etc.) which can
be installed inside the casing.
"

???????????????

Ok I can possible see needing blue tooth adapter and ever to a lesser degree
a GPS-module but why would a battery pack or battery management system need
an MP3 player???????
Lol



-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf
Of Jukka J=E4rvinen
Sent: Wednesday, January 30, 2008 10:04 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] 100+ new Li Battery companies

Now, now.. do not forget me from the list 
(AD !)

www.fevt.com

-Jukka


[email protected] kirjoitti:
> Pack Builders...
> =

> =

> http://www.mpoweruk.com/
> =

> http://www.boundlesscorporation.com/
> =

> http://www.modenergy.com/index.html
> =

> http://www.micro-power.com/default.asp?id=3D9
> =

> http://www.advancedlithium.com/about.html
> =

> http://enerdel.com/content/view/38/59/
> =

> http://www.nexergy.com/default.htm
> =

> =

> =

> =

> =

> =

> =

> _____________________________________________________________
> Save hundreds on getting a Web Design Degree. Click here.
>
http://thirdpartyoffers.netzero.net/TGL2221/fc/Ioyw6i4vCsYTOOnhI8ijXwXeHI6LF
IjPa2TttHMxfzAVaCM0R2WKon/
> =

> =

> =

> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] 100+ new Li Battery companies*



> --- [email protected] wrote:
> > why would a battery pack or battery management system need
> > an MP3 player???????
> 
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] 100+ new Li Battery companies*

I don't think its a matter of difficulty. If I built a product and 
some home hacker put it into something not originally designed for 
and then something happens and someone dies or is badly injured who 
do you think is going to get sued? The battery makers. EV hobbyists 
are a liability at this time because not enough companies are 
building lithium and its still too new to take that risk. Good old 
lead acid are our good old standby that will work. No longer 
considered a liability. I am sure at some point it was but back in 
it's day there were not so many sue happy lawyers to screw it up for 
us. You can thank the lawyers for a lot of the troubles.

: )





> Willie McKemie wrote:
> 
> > Maybe someone will explain to me the difficulties of developing and
> > selling off-the-shelf battery packs, complete with BMS and chargers,
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] 100+ new Li Battery companies*

Yea! the legal mobo jumbo.

: )





> Jukka J=E4rvinen wrote:
> 
> > Now electronics is not a problem but getting lisences LFP cells is.
> 
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] 100+ new Li Battery companies*


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] 100+ new Li Battery companies*

A typical coil is about 2 inches diameter and 4 inches long (at least
on the older cars that had a coil instead of igniter modules for each
plug or whatever the new ones have gone to) and only draws less than
2 or 3 amps at 12 volts. The wattage isn't that much. And, they run
rather hot with just that much power (but I suppose that could be from
non-optimized design.

Z



> henry buehler <[email protected]> wrote:
> > an ice gas engine has a coil to produce a spark. the coil increases the
> > voltage from the battery to produce an arc. If this coil was the size of a d
> > cell battery or two d cell batteries how many of these coils each getting
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] 100+ new Li Battery companies*

SOmeone wrote.....

"A typical coil is about 2 inches diameter and 4 inches long (at least
on the older cars that had a coil instead of igniter modules for each
plug or whatever the new ones have gone to) and only draws less than
2 or 3 amps at 12 volts. The wattage isn't that much. And, they run
rather hot with just that much power (but I suppose that could be from
non-optimized design."

Strangely enough this type of ignition is called a "capacitive discharge" ignition..... dbeard

Z



> henry buehler <[email protected]> wrote:
> > an ice gas engine has a coil to produce a spark. the coil increases the
> > voltage from the battery to produce an arc. If this coil was the size of a d
> > cell battery or two d cell batteries how many of these coils each getting
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] 100+ new Li Battery companies*

these coils are powered DC, as they would be in what I think you have in mind, because of this they cannot provide a constant high voltage supply, you charge them, which creates a magnetic field, and then break the circuit causing the field to collapse cutting the windings of the high voltage side giving a high voltage charge lasting milliseconds but they can't be used like step-up transformers (which I think is what your were suggesting)
> 
>


> henry buehler <[email protected]> wrote:
> > > an ice gas engine has a coil to produce a spark. the coil increases the
> > > voltage from the battery to produce an arc. If this coil was the size of a d
> > > cell battery or two d cell batteries how many of these coils each getting
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] 100+ new Li Battery companies*



> [email protected] wrote:
> >
> > Strangely enough this type of ignition is called a "capacitive discharge" ignition..... dbeard
> >
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] 100+ new Li Battery companies*



> [email protected] wrote:
> > I don't think its a matter of difficulty. If I built a product and
> > some home hacker put it into something not originally designed for
> > and then something happens and someone dies or is badly injured who
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] 100+ new Li Battery companies*



> Lee Hart wrote:
> 
> > So, I think the best way
> > to avoid being sued is to treat people fairly, and not be greedy and get
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] 100+ new Li Battery companies*


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] 100+ new Li Battery companies*

Hard honest work.




> Doug Weathers wrote:
> 
> > So, Lee, do you have a better way to get rich?
> 
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] 100+ new Li Battery companies*



> Doug Weathers wrote:
> >> So, Lee, do you have a better way to get rich?
> 
> [email protected] wrote:
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] 100+ new Li Battery companies*

You're right  MP3.. HA !

Then why ?

Simply bacause all those come easily with embedded Linux CPU we have =

there. You can have all normal computer services. If you wish.

Normal load from the battery is less than 10% (in average) on CPU.

And ... they all were there already before 4 Gb Nanos etc were available....

I rather had my music album updated via WiFi than USB stick when I came =

home with my EV.

An option.. nothing else.

-Jukka


[email protected] kirjoitti:
>>From the http://www.fevt.com/pro.html website.
> "Products
> Energy Storing Solutions:
> =

> EnergyPacktm (EP) is a complete energy storing solution for industrial us=
e.
> This product line consists of Lithium batteries, chargers, and a computer
> system which communicates and adjusts the chargers, sealed casing and few
> optional devices (Bluetooth adapter, GPS-module, MP3 player, etc.) which =
can
> be installed inside the casing.
> "
> =

> ???????????????
> =

> Ok I can possible see needing blue tooth adapter and ever to a lesser deg=
ree
> a GPS-module but why would a battery pack or battery management system ne=
ed
> an MP3 player???????
> Lol
> =

> =

> =

> -----Original Message-----
> From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Beh=
alf
> Of Jukka J=E4rvinen
> Sent: Wednesday, January 30, 2008 10:04 PM
> To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] 100+ new Li Battery companies
> =

> Now, now.. do not forget me from the list 
> (AD !)
> =

> www.fevt.com
> =

> -Jukka
> =

> =

> [email protected] kirjoitti:
>> Pack Builders...
>>
>>
>> http://www.mpoweruk.com/
>>
>> http://www.boundlesscorporation.com/
>>
>> http://www.modenergy.com/index.html
>>
>> http://www.micro-power.com/default.asp?id=3D9
>>
>> http://www.advancedlithium.com/about.html
>>
>> http://enerdel.com/content/view/38/59/
>>
>> http://www.nexergy.com/default.htm
>>
>>
>

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] 100+ new Li Battery companies*

On Sat, Feb 02, 2008 at 01:49:33PM +0200, Jukka J?rvinen wrote:

> Simply bacause all those come easily with embedded Linux CPU we have 
> there. You can have all normal computer services. If you wish.

WOW! Now that IS exciting! I presume with a Nokia 800, EEEPC, or 
other one could ssh, xdmcp, or vnc into your box and do quite a bit of 
tinkering and displaying? Might even be able to screw it up beyond all 
repair 

I eagerly await news of availability.

-- 
Willie, ONWARD! Through the fog!
http://counter.li.org Linux registered user #228836 since 1995
Debian3.1/GNU/Linux system uptime 49 days 2 hours 25 minutes

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