# [EVDL] EV heating, cooling, and defrosting options



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Simple facts heating uses as much energy per mile as driving EV traction 
power.

Defroging can be done with high volume air blow as suggested even when not 
heated or by application of some anti fog compounds almost daily.

Air conditioning depending on climate can take up to 5 times the energy per 
mile that is needed to power EV (level road). However once the car is cooled 
and if you use recirculation, (no fresh hot air in) it can be managed if the 
vehicle is very well insulated, ICE cars generally do not have ANY 
insulation in doors, side panels and roof. Recent EV at Paris Auto Show used 1/5 the 
energy for A/C that similar uninsulated ICE vehicle of the same size uses 
(Peugeot 203).

If you live in cold climate nothing but fuel fired heater is cost effective 
and economical, you can have AIR heater or "water" heater that can be then 
with electric water pump hooked up to existing ICE system if it is a conversion.

However on production vehicles the EPA or CARB certification is needed as it 
is no longer ZEV.

Webasto makes some nice low cost ($2,000 or so) fuel fired heaters, mostly 
diesel as well as Zeuna and Eberspracher.

BERU is the only company that makes drop in electronic heaters that can run 
on 12 V, 24 V or 48 V and are fully computerized to maintain certain 
temperature of output air without driver intervention other than ON/OFF and thus 
minimize the power consumption.

Hope that my response will not ignite another bout of nasty comments !

But in reality EV's are best in climates where you need none of the above 
(heating, cooling, or defrosting) !

Miro Kefurt
_www.okaauto.com_ (http://www.okaauto.com) 





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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

I would have to respectfully disagree. I have been working on heat this weekend so this is fresh on my mind. I used a fluid heater in my car and when on it only pulls 14amps from my pack when it is on. Even when averaged out over the full drive it's nowhere near the same draw as per mile driving.

After 5 minutes I was able to get 100deg air from my vents, this was heating and circulating approx 32 ounces of water.



Ben in SC

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of [email protected]
Sent: Monday, November 03, 2008 10:03 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [EVDL] EV heating, cooling, and defrosting options

Simple facts heating uses as much energy per mile as driving EV traction
power.

Defroging can be done with high volume air blow as suggested even when not
heated or by application of some anti fog compounds almost daily.

Air conditioning depending on climate can take up to 5 times the energy per
mile that is needed to power EV (level road). However once the car is cooled
and if you use recirculation, (no fresh hot air in) it can be managed if the
vehicle is very well insulated, ICE cars generally do not have ANY
insulation in doors, side panels and roof. Recent EV at Paris Auto Show used 1/5 the
energy for A/C that similar uninsulated ICE vehicle of the same size uses
(Peugeot 203).

If you live in cold climate nothing but fuel fired heater is cost effective
and economical, you can have AIR heater or "water" heater that can be then
with electric water pump hooked up to existing ICE system if it is a conversion.

However on production vehicles the EPA or CARB certification is needed as it
is no longer ZEV.

Webasto makes some nice low cost ($2,000 or so) fuel fired heaters, mostly
diesel as well as Zeuna and Eberspracher.

BERU is the only company that makes drop in electronic heaters that can run
on 12 V, 24 V or 48 V and are fully computerized to maintain certain
temperature of output air without driver intervention other than ON/OFF and thus
minimize the power consumption.

Hope that my response will not ignite another bout of nasty comments !

But in reality EV's are best in climates where you need none of the above
(heating, cooling, or defrosting) !

Miro Kefurt
_www.okaauto.com_ (http://www.okaauto.com)





**************Plan your next getaway with AOL Travel. Check out Today's Hot
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(http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/100000075x1212416248x1200771803/aol?redir=http://travel.aol.com/discount-travel?ncid=emlcntustrav00000001)
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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

In a message dated 11/3/08 7:19:47 A.M. Pacific Standard Time, 
[email protected] writes:

14amps 


At what Voltage ?

Watts matter not Amps and then Wh over time divided by distance traveled 
with heater ON.

most EV on level road use 165 to 250 Wh per mile at speeds below 40 MPH 
(above that Cd matters more).

If you are running 96V for example that is 1,344 Watts this then you have to 
multiply by time and then divide by speed to arrive at watts per mile.

Only then you can draw any conclusion or comparison that matters.
**************Plan your next getaway with AOL Travel. Check out Today's Hot 
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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> On 3 Nov 2008 at 10:03, [email protected] wrote:
> 
> > Simple facts heating uses as much energy per mile as driving EV traction
> > power.
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

144V Pack



Ben

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of [email protected]
Sent: Monday, November 03, 2008 10:53 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [EVDL] EV heating, cooling, and defrosting options


In a message dated 11/3/08 7:19:47 A.M. Pacific Standard Time,
[email protected] writes:

14amps


At what Voltage ?

Watts matter not Amps and then Wh over time divided by distance traveled
with heater ON.

most EV on level road use 165 to 250 Wh per mile at speeds below 40 MPH
(above that Cd matters more).

If you are running 96V for example that is 1,344 Watts this then you have to
multiply by time and then divide by speed to arrive at watts per mile.

Only then you can draw any conclusion or comparison that matters.
**************Plan your next getaway with AOL Travel. Check out Today's Hot
5 Travel Deals!
(http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/100000075x1212416248x1200771803/aol?redir=http://travel.aol.com/discount-travel?ncid=emlcntustrav00000001)
_______________________________________________
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Archives: http://evdl.org/archive/
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constitute permission to examine, copy or distribute the accompanying material.
If you receive this message in error, please notify the sender immediately or call 864-260-5000.


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Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Yeah, well you're still WAY off on your calculations here - my heater 
doesn't draw anywhere near that, either. Plus it's not on very often, or 
very long.

Listen to REALWORLD data, don't rely on calculations so much - you'll get 
more respect, and have something useful to go on.

Joseph H. Strubhar

Web: www.gremcoinc.com

E-mail: [email protected]
----- Original Message ----- 
From: <[email protected]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, November 03, 2008 7:53 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] EV heating, cooling, and defrosting options


>
> In a message dated 11/3/08 7:19:47 A.M. Pacific Standard Time,
> [email protected] writes:
>
> 14amps
>
>
> At what Voltage ?
>
> Watts matter not Amps and then Wh over time divided by distance traveled
> with heater ON.
>
> most EV on level road use 165 to 250 Wh per mile at speeds below 40 MPH
> (above that Cd matters more).
>
> If you are running 96V for example that is 1,344 Watts this then you have 
> to
> multiply by time and then divide by speed to arrive at watts per mile.
>
> Only then you can draw any conclusion or comparison that matters.
> **************Plan your next getaway with AOL Travel. Check out Today's 
> Hot
> 5 Travel Deals!
> (http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/100000075x1212416248x1200771803/aol?redir=http://travel.aol.com/discount-travel?ncid=emlcntustrav00000001)
> _______________________________________________
> General EVDL support: http://evdl.org/help/
> Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
> Archives: http://evdl.org/archive/
> Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

converted VW:
262Wh per mile to drive under 40MPH
Heater (both heaters on, way too hot to keep on for the whole drive)
24A, 96V = 2304 W
typical commute is 6 miles, takes 15 minutes. Lets just assume both
heaters are on the whole time (getting the cabin way too hot, but lets
just play this game)

thats 0.25 hours * 2304W = 576Wh
now divide by distance 576Wh / 6 miles = 96Wh per mile to sweat it out
on the way to work.

I know I'm young and using the "new" math, but 96 is less than 262 by
a large factor.


Not everyone can live in the perfect climate states.. some of us will
need heat and/or cooling. Very sad.. but true.

-Jon Glauser
http://jonglauser.blogspot.com
http://www.evalbum.com/555

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Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> [email protected] wrote:
> > Simple facts heating uses as much energy per mile as driving EV traction
> > power.
> >
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Wow, even in my Solectria Force (which is known as one of the more efficient
EV's) your numbers don't jive...

Where do you get this stuff?





> Haudy Kazemi <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> > [email protected] wrote:
> > > Simple facts heating uses as much energy per mile as driving EV traction
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

----- Original Message ----- 
From: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] EV heating, cooling, and defrosting options


> Simple facts heating uses as much energy per mile as driving EV traction
> power.

Completely false. This is not for a highly efficient heater, but it is 
sufficient to show you are completely wrong. A room heater sufficient to 
warm a 20 foot by 20 foot room (several times larger than a vehicle cabin) 
consumes 1000watts, based on reviews on WalMart.com. Scaling this to the 5x5 
of a fairly large vehicle means 250W. Based on this using a single 12v 50Ah 
battery offers 600Wh, as such the cabin heater can run for over 2 hours on 
the one battery, assuming a reasonable LSV this would be a 40 mile range on 
a single battery. This is simple unachievable today.

> Air conditioning depending on climate can take up to 5 times the energy 
> per
> mile that is needed to power EV (level road).

Completely false again. Here I've got more direct knowledge as I've done 
cooling design. Without using expensive technologies, a simple air-based 
compression-expansion system can handle 5cfm of air, lowering temperature by 
5 degrees F for under 100W consumption. Considering flowthrough and cabin 
size of a mid-size vehicle, a long-term 10 degree cooling is easily achieved 
for under 100W, so the EV would have to go 6 hours on one battery. Using 
more efficient systems can drop the power requirements by an order of 
magnitude.

> However once the car is cooled
> and if you use recirculation, (no fresh hot air in)

Illegal, DOT requires 10% flowthrough, this is critical for occupant safety 
to prevent oxygen depletion.

> it can be managed if the
> vehicle is very well insulated, ICE cars generally do not have ANY
> insulation in doors, side panels and roof.

Completely false. While they generally do not use such technologies 
fiberglass insulation, the foams that are commonly used as notable 
insulators.

> If you live in cold climate nothing but fuel fired heater is cost 
> effective
> and economical, you can have AIR heater or "water" heater that can be then
> with electric water pump hooked up to existing ICE system if it is a 
> conversion.

Beyond completely false. Ambient pressure deflagration is an extremely 
inefficient use of energy, compressed pressure deflagration is more 
efficient but still not highly efficient. Using even a simple (and not 
significantly efficient) ceramic heater is as much as twice as efficient as 
compressed deflagration. Using more advanced chemical enhanced systems, 
systems that reach a suitable exo or endo (depending on system design) 
thermic reaction with minimal energy input achieving seemingly over-unity 
efficiency (it is not over-unity, the additional energy comes from the 
surrounding environment) the energy requirements plummet. The reason deflag 
heaters are used in cold climates is because energy is cheap. Instead look 
at the technologies being proposed for Africa and remote Arctic stations to 
see energy efficiency, you'll see heaters and coolers that use chemical 
phase change to store and release energy.

> However on production vehicles the EPA or CARB certification is needed as 
> it
> is no longer ZEV.

Actually EPA and CARB certifications are necessary anyway as the processes 
involved are not purely clean regardless (battery leakage, recycle 
requirements, rust, etc).

The energy storage and release systems I mentioned are so efficient that I 
briefly looked at trying to figure out a way to create a battery out of 
them, but my chemistry is simply not good enough.
Joe 

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

This thread has declined into noise, with one person posting material which 
appears to be erroneous, and others descending into personal attacks. 

Let's end the thread now, please.

Thanks,

David Roden
EVDL Administrator
http://www.evdl.org/


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