# A question of direction (ccw to cw)



## major (Apr 4, 2008)

caffinefiend said:


> I have a DENSO hyd pump motor from a TOYOTA forklift. It comes in at 80 lbs and 8 inches, the minimum from what I've read, that should be used in a small car conversion. It is 36 volts and 6.1 kw, 5min rated. It needs brushes which I can get for about $150. I got the motor as a freebee so the cost of the brushes would be my only expense ( I hope).
> 
> Here's the thing though. It has a fan on the commutator and the configuration of the blades make it look like the motor is set up for CCW rotation. I'm converting a 72 bug and need clockwise rotation. The motor only has 2 terminals labeled A and F instead of the hoped for 4 terminals which would make reversing the direction to CW easy.
> 
> Any hope for this motor?? can the wiring be switched internally?


Hi caff,

Maybe  It depends on specifics. Is it in good enough condition to warrant the cost? Is it series or compound wound? What is the real direction of rotation (I wouldn't bet on the shape of the fan)? How are the internal connections made? Copper strap or flexible cable? Is there a brush advance? Is the performance going to suit your needs?

Likely it is 4 pole. So would have a pair of brushes at 12 & 6 o'clock. Call those positive. And a pair at 3 & 9 o'clock. Call those negative. To reverse direction, alter the wires to the brush holders so the 12 & 6 o'clock brushes are negative and 3 & 9 are positive. It could be fairly simple or a real task with rerouting welded copper straps.

Regards,

major


----------



## piotrsko (Dec 9, 2007)

just a quick and dirty if you have a bug tranny: Flip around the ring gear so it is on the other side of the pinion and it will run the other way. IE: 4 speeds reverse and 1 forward. Bugs apparently run backwards to chevies, so that is how we used to accommodate a V6. Or get a bus tranny {OOps that only worked with swing axles}.


----------



## caffinefiend (Dec 14, 2009)

*SMOKE AND MIRRORS!*
So here are a few pics of the motor, I heard a voice saying "No disassemble Johnny 5 Stepahnie!" The commutator is new the old was munched because the brushes weren't serviced as you can see in the pic, they are way short and started arcing. The shop I got this from was going to rebuild the motor, but got rid of the forklift and shelved the idea. You can see commutator spatter (that had to hurt!) on one of the legs where the brushes are. That's the smoke, now the mirrors...

I was looking straight at the drive end of the motor when I was dissapointed to see that the blades on the fan looked to be set for counter clock rotation. Turn it so you are looking from the rear towards the drive end and *SHAZZAM!* you now have clockwise rotation

So as I hang dog back to my corner Major, thanks for the heads up info. Hopefully I won't have to use it, but if I do... And the pinnion ring flip is great
Piot! I never considered there could be a mechanical solution. Thanks again.


----------



## major (Apr 4, 2008)

caffinefiend said:


> .........The commutator is new the old was munched because the brushes weren't serviced as you can see in the pic, they are way short and started arcing. The shop I got this from was going to rebuild the motor,....
> I was looking straight at the drive end of the motor when I was dissapointed to see that the blades on the fan looked to be set for counter clock rotation. Turn it so you are looking from the rear towards the drive end and *SHAZZAM!* you now have clockwise rotation


Hi caff,

I wouldn't jump to any rotation conclusions. That type of fan works either way 

The whole armature looks new. Motor in general looks good. The field coils appear to be series (that's good for controller compatibility). With the flexible connectors it may not be hard to reverse rotation. You could even add terminals and make it reversible.

Your bigger problem may be the shaft extension , or lack thereof.

major


----------



## poprock (Apr 29, 2010)

re fan direction: compare it with an older style alternator D.O.R. The fan looks similar.


----------



## caffinefiend (Dec 14, 2009)

Thanks Major, When I order the new brushes i'll re-assemble the motor and try it with 12 to check the direction. If it is ccw I'll switch the brush/field lead if I have enough length, and if not I'll look into creating an external terminal to do the same. 

On the shaft length, the motor has a 5/8th" female splined aperature with 10 points around. I've been working on a shaft, since they are hard if not impossible to find. I include a pic of it. Its a medium grade steel, not hardened yet.


----------



## MikeB (Jan 2, 2012)

We just had a splined shaft wear out on a hydraulic pump from the cnc lathe at our shop. We found parts at the local hydraulic pump repair shop.
If you could find a stock shaft it might last longer than a home made one.
Ours failed because it was run with no grease and rusted then ground itself away. The new parts are not dry 

good luck

I have a zap xebra would a motor like this be a upgrade? I have all the motors from the old Baker forklift we retired. The main motor should be pushing a 74 beetle before too long.


----------



## caffinefiend (Dec 14, 2009)

I like how you think Mike! It didn't occur to me to check hyd repair shops, and I appreciate the Grease tip too. I would have run it dry otherwise. How long did it take your old shaft to rust out?


----------



## caffinefiend (Dec 14, 2009)

I finallyfound brushes that I could modify to fit my motor. Yesterday I did a 12v test of the motor after straping it down to the workbench. It rotates clockwise as viewed from the rear, which is just what I need for my Bug conversion.

A new question I have is about brush advancement. This is a 36v motor and I want to run it at 72V for starters and most likely 96V in the near future. I have found reference to Jim Husted site "hitorque, but the site is no longer availiable. His new company site doesn't have the info on brush advancement as far as I can find.

I read somewhere that you should advance by 7 Degress. Is this right? and by advance, does that mean in the direction of rotation? Also, my brush ring is split (not broken, just fastened down in 2 pieces) so I guess i need to phisically move the brush holders and rivet them in place. Any thoughts on that? Maybe there is a better proceedure???

Does anyone know of a good set of instructions on doing brush advancement??


----------



## major (Apr 4, 2008)

caffinefiend said:


> This is a 36v motor and I want to run it at 72V for starters and most likely 96V in the near future.


You don't know if there is an advancement with the motor in its present condition. So I'd run it "as is" and see if more is needed.



> I read somewhere that you should advance by 7 Degress. Is this right?


Maybe. It is just somebody's guess. There is no right number for all.



> and by advance, does that mean in the direction of rotation?


Advance means "before". So if rotation is CW, move the brushes CCW.



> Also, my brush ring is split (not broken, just fastened down in 2 pieces) so I guess i need to phisically move the brush holders and rivet them in place. Any thoughts on that? Maybe there is a better proceedure???


I'd first look at drilling and tapping holes into the frame end to twist the entire CEH (Comm End Head) assembly.



> Does anyone know of a good set of instructions on doing brush advancement??


Nope, sorry.


----------



## caffinefiend (Dec 14, 2009)

Thank you for all the answers you provided Major.... I think you just made the beginings of a primer on brush advancement!!

Another question is about the voltage a 36V motor can take. I've got something like 70 bars on the comutator and 4 brushes that are about 1.25 inch long x 1.5 inch wide x .5 inch thick. The field windings are thick copper band type windings in good condition.

I'm starting at 72v but soon will most likely go to 96v when I find a good deal on an appropriate controller.


----------

