# The Metro



## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

I have a few unresolved wiring questions. Frodus left me some really helpful links in other threads, and I now have a bunch of diagrams printed out, and half of the wiring done. The wires I still have question marks on are as follows...

ORION: dicharge enable. 

7601 controller: not sure what "pedal interlock" is... green wire. Not sure about white/red "menu button" goes. Also not sure what to wire forward or reverse to.

PFC40: does anybody know of a power supply that can take 100 to 240vac in and get 12 to 15 vdc out? It needs to be wired to my ac lines going to the charger, and be able to take 220 or 110, since the charger does not care how many volts ac are coming in, the power supply needs to be the same way. The manzanita/orion integration diagram that frodus linked me to says the dc output needs to be at least 350ma.


----------



## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

Ok, got the manzanita questions figured out now.


----------



## JoeG (Jul 18, 2010)

Alright! another Geo is being converted. 
I love my '91 metro HB http://www.diyelectriccar.com/garage/cars/340. It's been on the road 3 months/500miles now and can't keep the EV grin off my face.
Good luck,
Joe


----------



## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

Thanks for the link joeg. Nice job, nice ride!


----------



## dtbaker (Jan 5, 2008)

sounds like a very cool build. Use this thread to post some pictures as you go! I love to get ideas from others....

I'm curious why you decided on AC versus DC motor/controller?


----------



## frodus (Apr 12, 2008)

evmetro said:


> I have a few unresolved wiring questions. Frodus left me some really helpful links in other threads, and I now have a bunch of diagrams printed out, and half of the wiring done. The wires I still have question marks on are as follows...
> 
> ORION: dicharge enable.


That is meant to disable the controller. The controller is the load, and thus what discharges the pack. The 1238 controller has pin 1 as the enable. Pin 1 is pack voltage. You'll need a relay that can activate off the output signal from the Orion and it will switch the enable on/off. A Tyco KUEP-3D55-12 relay is what I use. This cannot be a standard auto relay, this is switching pack voltage and contacts need to be rated for the higher voltage you're using. The KUEP-3D55-12 contacts are 150VDC rated.



> 7601 controller: not sure what "pedal interlock" is... green wire.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interlock_(engineering)
This keeps the vehicle from creeping if throttle signal isn't 0%. Some throttles (PB-6) have a microswitch on them. When the throttle is idle (not pushing on it) the switch is closed. If you don't have it, don't wire it up.



> Not sure about white/red "menu button" goes.


There's a red pushbutton switch that came with the kit. This scrolls through the menu on the 840 display. Wire it as shown and put it anywhere you want. 



> Also not sure what to wire forward or reverse to.


Put it on a toggle switch DPST with center off (ON-OFF-ON switch). You can wire to forward if you only go forward, but it's nice to have reverse sometimes. Wire as shown and put anywhere you want.


----------



## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

Thanks frodus for the wiring info.

Does anybody have info on a main pack fuse or circuit breaker? I went down to my local car audio shop to get an anl fuse and holder, but the guy says that anl fuses only go to 350 amps. I am interested in finding the appropriate fuse rating and any ideas on what to buy. I am interested in the best quality options, not just the cheapest. Also looking for ideas on an emergency disconnect. Do I need more than just a 12 volt disconnect at the main contactor?


----------



## dtbaker (Jan 5, 2008)

evmetro said:


> Does anybody have info on a main pack fuse or circuit breaker?... Do I need more than just a 12 volt disconnect at the main contactor?


you *should* have an ineteria switch in-line with your main contactor 12v power to open circuit in case of impact. A big fat feraz fuse somewhere mid-pack, and a big circuit breaker WITH a manual pull cable, hopefully mounted under the dash by your knee and still visible/reachable for an emergency responder sticking their head in if you are unconcious.

fuses and circuit breakers are available at most of the ev retailers advertising on the right.... kta-ev, and evolveelectrics are great.


----------



## frodus (Apr 12, 2008)

evmetro said:


> Thanks frodus for the wiring info.
> 
> Does anybody have info on a main pack fuse or circuit breaker? I went down to my local car audio shop to get an anl fuse and holder, but the guy says that anl fuses only go to 350 amps. I am interested in finding the appropriate fuse rating and any ideas on what to buy. I am interested in the best quality options, not just the cheapest. Also looking for ideas on an emergency disconnect. Do I need more than just a 12 volt disconnect at the main contactor?


ANL fuses are rated for 80VDC or less. You can't just use any fuse. It MUST break the current and not arc. ANL fuses go higher, but it's the wrong fuse for your application. You need a different fuse.

Get a 400A fuse from here:
http://www.discountfuse.com/A15QS400_4_Mersen_Ferraz_Shawmut_Amp_Trap_Fuse_p/a15qs400-4.htm


----------



## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

I see the "key switch relay" on the controller diagram, pin 1. Instead of having a 12 volt signal from an ignition switch as shown in the manual, I will be wiring the relay coil to the orion instead. If I understand this right, the 12 volts positive side of the relay will be the orions "discharge enable"? And the ground side of the relay coil can go to chassis ground?


----------



## frodus (Apr 12, 2008)

evmetro said:


> I see the "key switch relay" on the controller diagram, pin 1. Instead of having a 12 volt signal from an ignition switch as shown in the manual, I will be wiring the relay coil to the orion instead. If I understand this right, the 12 volts positive side of the relay will be the orions "discharge enable"? And the ground side of the relay coil can go to chassis ground?


I'm a bit worried that this may be a system that is a bit past your experience level. I wouldn't just start wiring things up until you fully understand. Starting by drawing a complete schematic of your system is the best thing to do. That way, others can review it if you're making a mistake. 

*You didn't read and understand my explanation of Open Drain outputs at all*.

Reread this thread and understand it:
http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showthread.php?t=80472



> Open drain is essentially switching to ground. You wire the +12V to one side of the relay coil. The other side of the relay coil goes to the Open Drain of the Orion. When the transistor inside the Orion is triggered, the path current path is complete (it goes from +12V, through the relay coil, through the transistor to ground).


One thing to note: The controller 12V is NOT the same as the rest of the vehicle 12V (from your DC-DC converter, also supplying power to the BMS). They are NOT connected at all. The 12V on the controller is for local control of contactors, the display, and the controller IO. Do not connecto pin 7 on the curtis to Ground of your 12V system either. The Curtis needs to remain isolated from the rest of the system. If you need to interface to something else, use a relay.

About the discharge enable, Refer to this:
http://hpevs.com/Site/images/jpeg/wiring-schematics/generic_wiring_diagram_for_car.pdf

The 12V relay coil is to be powered by any external power source. In this case, you want want the Orion BMS to enable/disable your controller.

Referring to this:
http://www.orionbms.com/manuals/pdf/wiring.pdf

You would wire your Ignition switch between your 12V DC-DC and the READY input. When you turn the ignition on, it wakes the BMS and enters discharge mode. The Discharge Enable output is enabled when there are no faults.

The 12V ignition coil that HPEVS shows is wired like this:
The contacts are wired as shown on the HPEVS diagram.
The Coil is wired such that one end of the coil is wired to +12V of the DC-DC. The other side is wired to pin 7 of the Orion.



That being said:
You really need to draw a schematic and post it here in the thread so we can go through it. It seems like you're asking for help every step of the way and aren't understanding to any of the advice you've been given. Take your time, draw a schematic and do it right. I'm affraid if you don't, you're going to ruin the IO on the Curtis or the Orion.


----------



## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

Frodus, you are getting through to me. You are right on about this wiring being above my experience. The open drain is new to me, and keeping track of the number of voltage systems that are isolated from each other is new as well. Thanks so much for your patience and knowledge. It will take a few hours for me to absorb the new data. I think if I had built a basic dc lead sled that there would not be nearly as much learned as what I am getting now. These components will soon be wired, and the wiring mastered...


----------



## frodus (Apr 12, 2008)

I don't mind helping, but I HIGHLY HIGHLY recommend drafting up a schematic. A year later, when you forget why you wired it this way, you'll be able to look at it and understand.


----------



## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

I think I had misunderstood your reference to "12 volt signal from the orion" in post 7. Orion IS the signal, but not the 12 volt source. This looks much like the same concept as the relays I wired in to the ac mains for the orion to manzanita interface, but the power supply here will be the dc dc system. The discharge enable wire from the orion will serve as the ground for the relay coil and the other side of the coil will use dc dc + when the ignition key is turned to on.


----------



## dladd (Jun 1, 2011)

frodus said:


> I don't mind helping, but I HIGHLY HIGHLY recommend drafting up a schematic. A year later, when you forget why you wired it this way, you'll be able to look at it and understand.


Man, isn't that the truth! I'm about a year in with my car, and I refer to my initial drawings and notes all the time. I spent hours hand drawing out wiring schematics when I was starting, it does help tremendously.


----------



## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

I have been drawing diagrams of the subsystems just to understand and plan. The manzanita relays took about ten sheets of paper, but finally they worked on my bench. I have no master diagram yet, but that will come...


----------



## frodus (Apr 12, 2008)

evmetro said:


> I think I had misunderstood your reference to "12 volt signal from the orion" in post 7. Orion IS the signal, but not the 12 volt source. This looks much like the same concept as the relays I wired in to the ac mains for the orion to manzanita interface, but the power supply here will be the dc dc system. The discharge enable wire from the orion will serve as the ground for the relay coil and the other side of the coil will use dc dc + when the ignition key is turned to on.


That's my bad. I incorrectly referenced it previously. I meant signal and I corrected it.

I mean the Relay gets it's signal from the orion, but not as a 12V signal, it's a Ground path. Get the 12V+ from the same place you get the Ready signal from. The ground needs to come from the same source as well.... i.e. dc-dc converter or 12V aux battery.

But since you haven't really outlined the entire system in this thread (but in 3-4 other threads) it's hard to tell what you're using for your 12V supply for the BMS.


----------



## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

I am very interested in laying out the system in a format that makes it easy for you and others to assist with. It feels as a first time builder that the system is coming together as I build and learn, and not completely laid out in advance as it should be. It looks like I left out the dc dc converter in post 1 of the thread, so I will go back and add that in.


----------



## frodus (Apr 12, 2008)

Ignore drawing the 12V vehicle wiring system (lights, turn signals, etc) for now... that's another can of worms and AFAIC, you'd only need to tap into the brake lights for regen indication.


----------



## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

I have rigged up a few posts that I found at a local marine parts store. I installed a 12 volt post after my 15ah sla aux battery. I can run a wire from the post to the oem master fuse when I am ready to. The post will allow me to add as many circuits as I need without digging into oem wiring. I added a high voltage posts (5/16 stud) at the end of my pack. I plan to run all my high voltage grounds (3000 watt ceramic heater, dc dc converter, main pack, charger) to this one post. The positive post I plan to use is the main contactor. This would allow my dc converter to switch on when I turn on the key.


----------



## mcbrems (Oct 28, 2011)

I'm coming to this thread late, but if you haven't considered this, you may want to hard-wire your DC-DC converter to remain on always, so as to supply juice to the BMS. The power requirements of the BMS shouldn't be enough to significantly drain the pack even over many days of being parked.

McB


----------



## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

Thanks for posting ideas on this thread. As things are now, I have an always on lead from the orion going to the 12 volt aux battery. I have a 12 volt power supply wired to the ac mains for "wake up" power to the orion. I also have a 12 volt ignition hot. The dc dc converter I have planned to come on after the main contactor so that the dc dc will be off after the ignition turns off. Is there a benefit to wiring the dc dc before the contactor?


----------



## mcbrems (Oct 28, 2011)

One benefit is that the DC/DC keeps the aux battery charged, even when the ignition is off. That's especially helpful if your aux battery is used heavily while driving.


----------



## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

Do you or does anybody else know how much power will be used from the aux battery via the always on lead going to the orion when the pack is charging? I am not sure if the orion will be running off of the 12 volt power supply wake up signal or if it will be using the 12 volt aux battery lead. If the 12 volt power supply powered by shore power is running the bms then I may not need to have the dc dc on all the time, but if the bms runs off of the aux battery, it may get drained by the bms.


----------



## mcbrems (Oct 28, 2011)

The Orion can be woken up using either the Ready or Charge 12V inputs. Your Ready power is tied to the ignition, so the Orion will be drawing power from the DC/DC when driving around in Ready mode. But in Charge, with the ignition off (and your DC/DC also) the Orion will be pulling from your external AC/DC converter Charge 12V source. But in either case, for power to be drawn from either of those and NOT the Always ON, the Always ON voltage supplied needs to be lower (unspecified value) or 1.2V higher than the other two. You can find that on page 10 of the Wiring & Installation Manual PDF. 

Have no idea what the Always On draw is.

McB


----------



## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

Quick question on the manzanita rg 25 cord. The orion pdf for integrating the manzanita says to use pins 1 and 2, but also refers to them as regbus connectors. When I look at the manzanita manual, it calls its pin1 as 5 vdc power supply and pin 2 as reg over voltage. 5 vdc activates this line and tells the charger to stop charging. My question here is pins 5 and 6 are rudman bus + and -. I would like it if somebody could confirm that I pins 1&2, black and white are indeed correct.


----------



## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

I have the white and black wires of pins 1&2 wired up, but it will be a few days before I need to snap the rg25 into the manzanita, so if anybody knows something I don't, let me know.


----------



## tomofreno (Mar 3, 2009)

evmetro said:


> Quick question on the manzanita rg 25 cord. The orion pdf for integrating the manzanita says to use pins 1 and 2, but also refers to them as regbus connectors. When I look at the manzanita manual, it calls its pin1 as 5 vdc power supply and pin 2 as reg over voltage. 5 vdc activates this line and tells the charger to stop charging. My question here is pins 5 and 6 are rudman bus + and -. I would like it if somebody could confirm that I pins 1&2, black and white are indeed correct.


 Pins 1 & 2 are correct, 5V to pin 2 shuts down the charger. Lower voltage than that will reduce its output current.


----------



## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

I was just reading somebodys thread about isolating and a question on my dcdc came to mind on my build. I wired my dcdc as follows: 12vdc to aux battery positive, 12 ground to chassis and aux battery negative, 115vdc to traction pack positive, and 115 negative to traction pack negative. I have a fuse holder wired between the aux battery positive post and the dcdc converter, but no fuse in it yet. Does this wiring configuration pose any isolation problem? I have no fuses in any of my circuits yet, I figured I would drop them all in when all my wiring is ready.


----------



## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

More info on above question... my traction pack 2/0 circuit terminates to an isolated negative stud/post, and does not touch the chassis anywhere. Both orion white ground are bolted to chassis.


----------



## frodus (Apr 12, 2008)

Fuse the input to the DC-DC as well, if it fails, you need a way for the system to clear the short. Fuse the input AND output of the DC-DC.

Linking the 12V negative to chassis ground is fine, just make 100% sure the DC-DC is isolated from pack negative.

Wire the ground pins of the Orion (Pins 11/12) directly to 12V negative of the DC-DC. Do not wire straight to the chassis. They need to go to the 12V negative first. The chassis of the Orion has a ground lug, ground that to the same point that you ground the DC-DC 12V negative. You do not want to create ground loops


----------



## Ziggythewiz (May 16, 2010)

Sounds good, provided the DC-DC is isolated (you should not be able to read voltage from either output to either input).


----------



## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

Thanks for the info from the pros! On the ground loops... I mounted the orion inside one quarter panel cavity, and the dcdc in the other. I have each ground pretty short and grounded where they sit. Could I run a ground jumper between the grounds? I welded in nuts in each location so that it would be really simple to put a bolt through ring terminals and bolt the grounds down really nice. As much as I like how clean they look, I can redo it if it is for the best.


----------



## frodus (Apr 12, 2008)

No. Don't ground them where they sit. Ground them to one single point on the chassis. Putting jumpers between ground points causes ground loops.


----------



## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

Single point ground it is. I am going back in...


----------



## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

Ok, I read on another thread about chargers that the manzanita is not an isolated charger... I ran the shore power green ground wire all the way to the charger without touching the chassis anywhere. Straight shot to the charger, but the charger is mounted to a metal frame that is welded to the chassis. Are there any isolation things that I need to consider, or is this wiring ok? Charger outputs just go to the always hot posts at the end of my pack. I realize that these questions after the installions should have been addressed BEFORE construction, but I am thinking that the most important thing is to get these things verified prior to applying power...


----------



## frodus (Apr 12, 2008)

The Manzanita is not an isolated charger. The mains power is not isolated from B-.

I do not know if the frame of the Manzanita is isolated from B- or not, so while charging, you've got to make sure you don't touch the battery pack and the frame.


----------



## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

I am looking for a tablet for my gui on the orion. What I would like is a 7" so that I can mount it like a double din radio, but I cannot find a windows tablet in that size. Only droid. Anybody know of tablets that interface well with an orion bms? I have a pc cooling interface that uses windows seven so that I can control my controller chill plate and liquid cooled pfc 40. I am also wanting it to use the torque app.


----------



## frodus (Apr 12, 2008)

You don't want a windows tablet at all, you need to get an Android Tablet. You can't run Torque (app) on Windows or Ipad devices, only on Android.


----------



## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

Are there any droid apps that can run a cooling interface? I have a koolance thermal interface that I want to run my controller chill plate and liquid cooled pfc 40. I can abort my windows koolance thermal interface idea if there is a better way to run them without windows, but I am wanting something less hoaky than toggle switches.


----------



## frodus (Apr 12, 2008)

I have no idea what a Koolance thermal interface is......

links to what you're talking about (specifically the windows interface) would help.


----------



## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

koolance cooling interface

http://koolance.com/tms-205-software-thermal-interface-controller


----------



## frodus (Apr 12, 2008)

You really think you need that? The controller has temperature on it, the motor does, the BMS does.... It's complete overkill IMHO. I'd spend your money elsewhere... but that's me.

But no, there's nothing that I know of. Those interfaces are meant to be inside a PC, so it's unlikely they've done an android version of it.... no market to liquid cool an android.

If you have to do it, look into emulating android on a PC.


----------



## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

The thermal interface would allow automatic pump and fan functions with parameters set by the user. My thoughts here are that the pump and fan would not cycle when not needed, saving energy/ range. My ICE vehicles function this way, so why shouldn't EVs? I guess I just assumed that automatic cooling systems were standard in EV conversions. Are toggle switches the standard with EVs? How do people run their cooling systems?


----------



## frodus (Apr 12, 2008)

Some motor controllers have that already built in, and most chargers turn the fan on when they need it and some BMS have that functionality

I don't think it's bad to have things automated, but a windows interface is completely unnecessary. Just set it once, then forgetaboutit!!!


----------



## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

I am not really sure yet what exactly to "set once" yet, but this has me thinking. We don't need windows to make our ICE cooling sytems work, they have temp switches. If I could find a two stage temp switch, the first stage could trigger the pump and the second stage could trigger the fan. All the automotive ones seem to trigger in the 180 range and up, but I need something that triggers a bit lower.


----------



## Ivansgarage (Sep 3, 2011)

evmetro said:


> I am not really sure yet what exactly to "set once" yet, but this has me thinking. We don't need windows to make our ICE cooling sytems work, they have temp switches. If I could find a two stage temp switch, the first stage could trigger the pump and the second stage could trigger the fan. All the automotive ones seem to trigger in the 180 range and up, but I need something that triggers a bit lower.


Evmetro Klixons switches work really well and come in many temp ranges.

http://www.senasys.com/shop/?gclid=CNDC6t_48bMCFYF7QgodaCcAmw

----------------------


----------



## frodus (Apr 12, 2008)

> I am not really sure yet what exactly to "set once" yet, but this has me thinking. We don't need windows to make our ICE cooling sytems work, they have temp switches. If I could find a two stage temp switch, the first stage could trigger the pump and the second stage could trigger the fan. All the automotive ones seem to trigger in the 180 range and up, but I need something that triggers a bit lower.


I didn't look hard into that product... it looked like a controller that you configure.... the USB is for monitoring.

What I meant was, set the system up to be automated.... you don't really need to monitor it. If it requires windows to set up, then set it up first, then disconnect and let it run without monitoring it.


----------



## tomofreno (Mar 3, 2009)

evmetro said:


> The thermal interface would allow automatic pump and fan functions with parameters set by the user. My thoughts here are that the pump and fan would not cycle when not needed, saving energy/ range. My ICE vehicles function this way, so why shouldn't EVs? I guess I just assumed that automatic cooling systems were standard in EV conversions. Are toggle switches the standard with EVs? How do people run their cooling systems?


 My controller is mounted on a heat sink with a 5 1/4 fan bolted to the heat sink. The fan just has a manual switch. I leave it on during summer, turn it off during winter. The cab heater also just has a switch. I turn it on full blast when I get too cold. Turn it off when I get too warm. I thought about using a PID controller for the cab heater, but flipping the switch is pretty easy.


----------



## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

Ok... got everything wired up and turned on the key for the first time, anxious to see my build come to life! Nothing happened though. My vaccum pump ran for the first time, but the main contactor did not happen, no sign of anything from the controller or orion. The very first event that was supposed to happen was the 12v key power was supposed to travel to orion ready power and one side of the controller pin one relay coil. The other side of the pin one controller relay coil is supposed to get it's ground "signal" from the orion pin 7 discharge enable This relay did not work. When this relay activates, it connects pin one curtis to pack power. I have key power to the one side of the relay coil, but what needs to happen to make the "ground signal" happen from the orion pin 7? If I understand correctly, once this happens and the relay connects pin one curtis to the pack, I should see some action...


----------



## frodus (Apr 12, 2008)

Post a schematic (You should draw one now if you haven't already). It makes it way easier to debug.

And if the Orion isn't closing that relay, there's something inhibiting discharge internally i.e. it's not ready.


----------



## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

I have been going through sheet after sheet of paper trying to get a master wiring diagram layed out. Can't seem to get it organized. Is there a software program that a layman can use to accomplish this?


----------



## major (Apr 4, 2008)

evmetro said:


> I have been going through sheet after sheet of paper trying to get a master wiring diagram layed out. Can't seem to get it organized. Is there a software program that a layman can use to accomplish this?


I'd give you this one, but the darn thing isn't quite right


----------



## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

I already have a bunch of those all over my desk. I am looking for a software program that translates those into a better layout. I am reading about visio, but not sure yet how one aquires this program. Something to do with microsoft office... I am not really savy with computers, so I am not sure if I walk into best buy and find it on a shelf or if I download it...


----------



## dougingraham (Jul 26, 2011)

ExpressPCB has a program called ExpressSCH for doing schematics. There is a free version that will do a reasonable job and is not too tough to use. I started drawing my car's schematics with it and it seems to be reasonable.


----------



## frodus (Apr 12, 2008)

Free online tool at Digikey.com called Scheme-It:
http://www.digikey.com/schemeit

Sign up and you're good to go.


----------



## dtbaker (Jan 5, 2008)

major said:


> I'd give you this one, but the darn thing isn't quite right


funny as %^& though..... 'moral rectifier', omg...


----------



## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

Not only was it funny, but his timing for posting it was right on.


----------



## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

http://i1242.photobucket.com/albums/gg537/evmetro/photobucket-31514-1354678173563.jpg


----------



## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

I am trying to figure out how to post a pic on this forum... might be a while. It looks like the direct link gets you over to it, but I am still learning how to get it to just show up here.


----------



## onegreenev (May 18, 2012)

evmetro said:


> I am trying to figure out how to post a pic on this forum... might be a while. It looks like the direct link gets you over to it, but I am still learning how to get it to just show up here.


Easy. Be sure your in the advanced mode when posting and then if the photo is on the web you go to the site and open the photo you want to post in a new window and then copy paste the web address then paste that into the insert image link window and it will post the image into the thread. Be sure its not a terrible large image. Or you can scroll down and you will see a button that says manage attachments. Click on that and it opens a window that will allow you to navigate to a photo on your hard drive and then select that photo and upload it. Give it a shot. 

This is a photo from the web. 










Below is an image from my computer


----------



## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

http://i1242.photobucket.com/albums/gg537/evmetro/photobucket-31514-1354678173563.jpg

Ok, I give up for now on getting the image to show up here, but the above link show my wiring diagram as it is, complete with an error that is stopping my controller pin one relay from activating. 12 volts key power is present at the relay coil pin, but the orion's discharge enable is not happening at the other side of the coil. There are two relays there because the orion book says that pin 7 needs to be <100ma, and the first relay is there to step it up to the second relay. I drew all relays on the diagram the same way to be able to show which pins are the coil and which ones are the big circuit. I did not actually use 5 pin relays everywhere, just the one for the charger pin 1 and 2. If need be, I can draw another diagram of the high voltage wiring and the rest of the controller, but as far as I understand, there should be enough info to see what I have wired incorrectly. Thanks in advance frodus and anybody else who can get me on the right path.


----------



## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

I am not sure what advanced mode is.


----------



## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

I am not sure what advanced mode is. Think I got it though!


----------



## onegreenev (May 18, 2012)

evmetro said:


> I am not sure what advanced mode is. Think I got it though!


When you use the quote button to respond you are in advanced mode. If you use the quick response you are not but you still have the ability to post web images in quick mode. 

So I am in advanced mode and copied your link. So I will select the above link that shows a mountain and is a yellow square. In the same area as the youtube button. Select that and it opens a small window to past in your web link. Paste it in and hit ok. 

Looks like this if you do it right.


----------



## onegreenev (May 18, 2012)

Nice looking diagram.


----------



## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

I tried a few computer programs where you click on a component and drop it into your project, but none of the components were orion or controllers. started giving me a headache, so I just made this. the wiring in the car looks pretty nice, but it is not right. hopefully it is just one small detail, but I am standing by to take a beating if I did bad things...


----------



## frodus (Apr 12, 2008)

Start off by connecting to the Orion to look at why it won't operate..... that's where I'd start.

Have you programmed it at all yet?


----------



## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

Connecting? You mean hook up the screen? I don't have it wired up yet, but I can get right on it if that helps.


----------



## frodus (Apr 12, 2008)

no, as in connect the Orion to the computer to set it up for the first time.

This entire section.
http://www.orionbms.com/manuals/utility/


----------



## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

Ok, I see the third novel. That's really cool how they ship this product to you with just a raw chopped can cable, knowing good and well that it is going to need to get hooked up to a computer just to get going.


----------



## frodus (Apr 12, 2008)

IMHO You jumped into this project WAY over your ability level. You've asked questions almost every step along the way (some that would only involve reading the manual and having basic electronics knowledge). This is a very integrated project and requires actual system design. It's not like home AV equipment that just plugs in and you go.... you've got a fairly advanced system, and as such, it will require more work to get going (or previous experience). The BMS manufacturer doesn't know what you're using it with or how you've set it up, why would they ship it with certain settings that could allow you to run the pack down and damage your batteries? There's obviously something inside the controller that is not allowing discharge, and either it's wired wrong, or the BMS isn't set up correctly for your system.

There's 4 different documents under Manuals, all are important to getting the system running:
http://www.orionbms.com/resources/

Everything you need is available on their website.


----------



## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

Experience is a must with a system like this, and the best way I know of to get it is to actually do the work. Many years ago, I needed to put food on the table and took a bodyman job at a body shop. It did not take long to move up, but I was told I needed to be able to weld to move up. I bought a nice mig and took it home, along with some scrap metal from work. Within two days of my home welding class, I was able to move up at work to journeyman pay. (Special thanks to some talented mentors) As much as I respect the knowledge of an electronic engineer, I will not be going to college. I WILL build a high tech EV though. I want to thank you Frodus and some others as well for the help that I have gotten in this build. I have learned more than I ever imagined from all the threads and wiki here, as well as the VERY knowledgeable people who have directly helped. Stay tuned folks, we are going to see a high tech ev built by A DIYER! It is getting close...


----------



## frodus (Apr 12, 2008)

That being said though, I think it's a great system overall and will get you a nice little EV.

Maybe have a little patience with the manufacturers who didn't design the Complete system. Integration and setup is not all intuitive, but we're here to help if you do have questions (even if they are in the manual....lol).


----------



## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

I may start a thread after I am up and running about the Orion oriented towards the beginner. The first three letters in this site are DIY, and I would hate to see a diy ev newcomer throw up his hands because it looked to complicated. It is only complicated the first time you do it. A simple 5x7 card attached to the unit with a rubber band in the shipping carton with links to all the directions and a simple flowchart of the steps would probably make it simple enough for the new guy.


----------



## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

Ok, I went to frys and picked up a female 9 pin and a bag of female pins and wired the "db9" plug onto CAN 1. The wiring manual showed a pretty basic hookup, but when I try to connect, there are no lights on the CAN adaptor, and I get a little pop up that says CAN adapter not found. The wiring manual mentions 120 ohm resistors, but also seems to indicate that the CAN adapter has that built in. I did not add the resistors... does this sound right? The troubleshooting guide is pretty vague and tells me to try another usb jack, which I did. Any ideas on how to get my laptop taking to the orion?


----------



## frodus (Apr 12, 2008)

Install the driver for the CAN adapter. Should have come on a CD, or you download it from either Orion or the CAN adapter manufacturer website. It won't light up until it's recognized.


----------



## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

I already found that, and downloaded it. I also restarted the laptop, but still the same thing.


----------



## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

I am unclear of the orintation of the db9 in the wiring manual. Can't tell if tbe view they are showing is the side that I poke the newly wired pins into, or if that is the view that the CAN adapter plugs into. I might switch the end pin to the other side in the morning..


----------



## frodus (Apr 12, 2008)

you need to go by pin number, it's probably written on the actual DB9 itself.

Did you get the CAN adapter to be recognized by the PC when you plug it in?


----------



## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

A lighted magnifier showed the end pin on the wrong end. Orion and pc are linked. When I load my new profile into the orion, it says I have a discrepancy between max pack voltage and summed pack voltage, but I can't find where to set summed voltage. I have scanned through all the fields in the profile and the manual but can't find this.


----------



## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

Ok, the summed voltage problem went away when I linked in and auto populated the cells. They are all at 3.33 but one that is reading 2.79. WTF? They were all the same a month ago, and I have not even cycled them yet.


----------



## frodus (Apr 12, 2008)

Did you equalize them first? i.e. charge them individually or at least hook them all up in parallel?

batteries are typically NOT shipped fully charged, so that one at 2.79V, may be faulty if it has been equalized. If you haven't, it might have just self discharged.


----------



## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

I just pulled the pack with the low cell, and the it reads 3.33 on my meter, as do all the others. I top balanced the pack a while back, and they all look balanced now. I am glad I did not put my interior back in yet. I just traced the lead and it looks nice all the way. Getting ready to pull the taps plug and read it there. When I verified the pinout before plug in, I just counted "roughly" by 3's to make sure they were in the right order, but did not pay attention to the tenths.


----------



## frodus (Apr 12, 2008)

Yeah, double check the wire and that it's seated all the way in.

If it still reads low, give Orion a call.

It's coming along well though!


----------



## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

Talked with orion about the low voltage line and he had me go through a few screens and had me try moving the voltage tap plug. He said something is wrong with it and had me send it to them. Guess I will be waiting for a lttle while now.
I powered up the controller circuit. When I powered the pin 1 relay the controller turned on and gave me a slow flashing yellow light. What does this mean? Also can hear the main contactor making a humming sound. Are they supposed to make sound?


----------



## frodus (Apr 12, 2008)

Flashing yellow is fine, that's operating correctly.

Read this:
http://hpevs.com/Site/images/jpeg/d...eshooting/diagnostics-and-troubleshooting.pdf

Yes the Contactor hums, It's got a PWM signal going to it, so you'll hear it a little.

Did it at least close?


----------



## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

Frodus, when I was filling in all the fields in on the orions profile, I thought about you and the way over your head thing. I had the bms utility open in another window for reference, wiki in another, and a bunch more for general googling. It took longer than I want to admit here to understand what to fill in those fields to download to the Orion. Steep learning curve, but worth every bit. My lead sled metro is not much more complicated than a flashlight, but this build is, as you said much more advanced. There is a thrill involved in finally seeing the wheels turn for the first time on such an extensive build. It's tempting to take her for a spin, but I will wait for the orion to come back from Illinois. Thanks again for all the help. You roughed me up a few times, but that gave me more drive to stick to it.


----------



## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

I played around a little with the motor this morning. Turned the key on so I could rev it a little, and watch the wheels go around. I have it sitting off the ground on my two post lift, so it is not going anywhere... Anyway, it looks like the wheel that spins is a little jerky and slow. The lights on the 840 work their way down to red by 70 rpms, 90 amps, 109 volts, respectively. Pack has 114 volts. Seems like something is not right. This occurs at about 3/4 pedal.


----------



## frodus (Apr 12, 2008)

don't use the battery indicator on the 840, it's useless for lithium. Plus, you have to very accurately adjust parameters in the curtis to get it anywhere close.


----------



## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

What? An ev component that is not plug n play? No way! Does one need software to dial it in? I see a programming device on the curtiss website...


----------



## frodus (Apr 12, 2008)

Those displays when used with the controller are plug and play FOR LEAD ACID.

It's useless on lithium because lithium is a lot more flat of a discharge curve. So don't use it for an accurate report of SOC. That's what your ORION BMS is for anyway, it's got that ability built in (if you use a tablet)


----------



## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

Yea, The orion looks like a much nicer way to see whats going on. What does it take to get the 7601 and the ac 35 motor dialed in and running right? Right now it looks like it will take full throttle to move as fast as I can walk.


----------



## frodus (Apr 12, 2008)

how many RPM?


----------



## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

I have 3/4 peddle specs on post #90, but I can get full throttle specs when I get back to my shop in the morning. From what I can specutate, max rpm will be under 200...


----------



## frodus (Apr 12, 2008)

You aren't using 24 cells are you.... It's probably in limp mode.


----------



## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

I am using 34 cells. Slow flashing yellow light on controller...


----------



## frodus (Apr 12, 2008)

Slow flashing is normal

But 34 cells might require a reprogram. If the voltage is too high (or too low) from the programmed settings, you go into limp mode and the motor doesn't go very fast.

You might also have the phases swapped. Take 2 of the 3 phase wires and swap them. I know it runs slow/abnormally if it's wired backwards.


----------



## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

I will narrow it down in the morning. I specified carefully about 3 times on the phone when I ordered the controller that I was running 34 cells and an ac 35 motor. They said they would have it programmed accordingly. The 3 phases on my motor and controller were marked clearly, but that does not mean that I did not make a mistake...


----------



## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

Yep, all 3 phases match up. The controller has the u, v, and w embossed, and the motor has a sticker. When you orient the motor with the transmission side down, the sticker and my wiring read from left to right : u, v, w.


----------



## frodus (Apr 12, 2008)

Does the motor run smooth or rough?


----------



## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

Ok, it is happy now. Looks like they put the sticker upside down. I figured this should be the first trial and error experiment in case the sticker was upside down.


----------



## frodus (Apr 12, 2008)

Well we can't assume though... just because it's UVW on the controller doesn't mean you need to wire it that way on the motor. It's just an industry wide issue for AC motors. If it runs backwards, swap two phases. The controller can do this in software, but since you don't have the programmer, just swap two phases.

So does it run the full RPM range?


----------



## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

Took it around the parking lot. Feels peppy and happy. Did not romp on it though.. i will check out the rpm range next spin.


----------



## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

I have many metros that I have come to love, but after feeling this much torque, I will never be able to enjoy the 1.0 liter 3 cyl engine the way I have all these years.


----------



## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

Ok, the clutchless shifting is not as easy with the the regen on this rig. My lead sled metro is clutchless with an 8 inch adc, and I can't see any reason for a clutch in that one, but something needs to happen with this ac set up.


----------



## TEV (Nov 25, 2011)

evmetro said:


> Ok, the clutchless shifting is not as easy with the the regen on this rig. My lead sled metro is clutchless with an 8 inch adc, and I can't see any reason for a clutch in that one, but something needs to happen with this ac set up.


How about installing a "regeneration OFF button" on the shifter ? I was thinking to do this if shifting will be a problem in reg. mode.


----------



## frodus (Apr 12, 2008)

need to set off throttle braking to almost 0, then use only the regen brake for regen.


----------



## mcbrems (Oct 28, 2011)

evmetro said:


> PFC40: does anybody know of a power supply that can take 100 to 240vac in and get 12 to 15 vdc out?



http://www.alliedelec.com/search/productdetail.aspx?sku=70177181&gclid=CK-mkMCLrLQCFYN_Qgod-yMAGw

This is what I'm using for Orion pin#3 charge signal.

Cheers,
McB


----------



## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

I notice that if I put the tranny in nuetral and rev it, the motor un revs very quickly. Does this motor do this naturally, or is it actually trying to regen when there is no load on it? My dc motor in my lead sled seems to take longer to slow down, making the shifts very easy. I was kinda hoping to get more regen feel when I decel, so I may need to get a clutch. The stock clutches on these metros are pretty dinky, so I may have to look for an aftermarket one. I suppose a stock clutch may act as a "fuse" to protect the tranny from a more spirited driver...


----------



## dougingraham (Jul 26, 2011)

evmetro said:


> I notice that if I put the tranny in nuetral and rev it, the motor un revs very quickly. Does this motor do this naturally, or is it actually trying to regen when there is no load on it? My dc motor in my lead sled seems to take longer to slow down, making the shifts very easy. I was kinda hoping to get more regen feel when I decel, so I may need to get a clutch. The stock clutches on these metros are pretty dinky, so I may have to look for an aftermarket one. I suppose a stock clutch may act as a "fuse" to protect the tranny from a more spirited driver...


By default the Curtis controller has some regen. It doesn't know the transmission is in neutral. It just knows you let off the throttle. To get rid of this you will probably want to turn regen way down or even off and only regen when you step on the brake. Jack Rickard uses a pressure transducer in the brake line to activate the regen proportional to pedal pressure. But you could just apply a little when the brake lights come on. You will need probably need to borrow or buy one of the programmers to make these changes.

You can also just train your foot to apply the correct throttle to make the motor rpm match the transmission rpm when you have it in neutral. I am saying you could do this, not that it is a good idea.


----------



## frodus (Apr 12, 2008)

Exactly,

There's's two types of regen. Neutral braking and braking regen. Neutral braking is like engine braking, it activates when you let off the throttle and slows the motor down so it doesn't coast. Regen braking is when you activate the brake input. If you don't want neutral braking while you're switching gears, then you need a programmer and need to bring that down lower to an acceptable level.


----------



## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

The neutral braking is a novelty to me right now, and I feel like I want more of it. Have others before me increased this only to discover that the default setting were more appropriate for one reason or another? I am most interested in having the optimum ev set up and don't mind adding a clutch if necessary, but if simply turning down the nuetral braking is better I would rather not reinvent the wheel.


----------



## frodus (Apr 12, 2008)

IIRC, tomofreno might have some input on this. Not sure if people dial it down for clutchless or not. Check out some of his comments on the AC31/AC50 thread (do a forum search cause I'm on my android phone and too lazy...lol) The good thing, is it's adjustable.


----------



## dougingraham (Jul 26, 2011)

evmetro said:


> The neutral braking is a novelty to me right now, and I feel like I want more of it. Have others before me increased this only to discover that the default setting were more appropriate for one reason or another? I am most interested in having the optimum ev set up and don't mind adding a clutch if necessary, but if simply turning down the nuetral braking is better I would rather not reinvent the wheel.


This would be a driver preference sort of thing. If you want to go clutch less then you will probably want to turn down or eliminate the neutral regen. Unless you drive in a lot of stop n go traffic regen will not gain you much. It is much better from an overall efficiency standpoint to coast than to try to recover that energy. This might be counter intuitive but it happens because you lose about 20% of the recovered energy as heat in the motor and controller. If you coast you lose only the energy due to rolling and air resistance which is the same either way. A small amount of neutral regen is typical on OEM cars because it feels like engine braking so no surprises.

If you have a clutch then you also have a flywheel which does cost you some performance when accelerating. You can throw money at this and get a lightweight racing flywheel and clutch but it hardly seems worth it.


----------



## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

I got the Orion back from repair, and back in the car. When I took it for a spin with my profile loaded into it, the controller turns off at around 107 volts out of 114 resting volts on the 840 gauge. My guess is that I did not fill in one or more fields of the profile correctly. I have individual cells set for 2.8 volts and pack set for 98 volts. ???


----------



## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

I was able to narrow things down to what appears to be one cell. When I run the live graph of cell #11, the voltage drops to below 2.8, and then back to 3.33 when the controller shuts off. Any tips or ideas on what would cause this? I am going to pull that pack and check out the connection and swap out that pair of jumpers to another battery to see if the problem moves to another cell.


----------



## frodus (Apr 12, 2008)

Swap the cell, if the problem moves, you've got a dud


----------



## tomofreno (Mar 3, 2009)

dougingraham said:


> Unless you drive in a lot of stop n go traffic regen will not gain you much. It is much better from an overall efficiency standpoint to coast than to try to recover that energy. This might be counter intuitive but it happens because you lose about 20% of the recovered energy as heat in the motor and controller. If you coast you lose only the energy due to rolling and air resistance which is the same either way.


 Basically you are saying putting no energy back into the batteries is better than putting some back in. Lets think about this a bit. The car is cruising with some kinetic energy, KE. The traffic light up ahead turns red, so you need to slow to a stop. You can coast most of the way up to it lowering the car's speed and KE only slightly due to rr and drag forces, leaving say 0.7 of the original KE, and then dissipate the other 70% as friction in the brakes to come to a stop. Or you could apply regen, to supply power to the battery pack. Some of this power will be dissipated as heat in the controller and motor. Maybe around 20% as you say, so that leaves 80% of the 0.7KE that wasn't lost due to work against rr and drag forces, or 56% of the vehicles KE into the batteries. You are saying it is much better to put none of the vehicle's KE into the pack than some percentage of it.


----------



## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

Tomo, you have many miles on yours... do you run a clutch? How do you have your regen set up at this point?


----------



## tomofreno (Mar 3, 2009)

JRP3 and I prefer using neutral braking, others prefer applying regen through the brake pedal. There is a post here by cruisin on his brake pedal setup. I think he sets it up so there is about 1" of free play in the brake pedal before it starts applying pressure to the master cylinder, and uses that part of the pedal to apply regen only. Otherwise you are generally applying both at the same time, so less energy back to the batteries. 

JRP3 may not like neutral braking anymore though since he destroyed his (clutchless) transmission. I've had no problem using a stock clutch for 3 years/22k+ miles. Just takes a little practice matching speed for a smooth shift as it does with an ice. 

I don't know what the default regen setting is these days from HPEVS. Mine came with it set weak, 10%. I set it at 55% shortly after finishing the conversion. That is strong enough to do most stopping except emergencies with only regen, applying the brakes after the car's speed is less than 5 mph most of the time. You can also limit the max regen current at different motor rpm bands. I have it set up so that it doesn't exceed about 140A even if I release the accelerator pedal completely when the motor is at 6k rpm, but it will still regen almost this much if I release the pedal at lower speeds. You should also set your user_overvoltage parameter so that it will cut out regen if your pack V exceeds that specified limit. Otherwise you may overcharge a cell if regening down hill after a full charge.

Edit: Regen is usually around 10% of the energy used for me. In the run for the video for jrogue I drove about a mile with one stop, to a freeway on ramp, about 3 miles down the freeway and exited, two stops, and a final stop about 3/4 mile later on a side road. Regen was 11%, data logged from the controller.


----------



## tomofreno (Mar 3, 2009)

This is the jrogue thread with the video showing various parameters while driving:
http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showpost.php?p=280386&postcount=1
Posts # 14 and 16 there are on the regen during that run. Looked like a bit over 50% of the vehicle KE went into the pack through regen.

The data was collected using Curtis software for the controller, and I had a webcam mounted at the windshield. JRogue put everything together afterward and made the display.


----------



## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

Since this is my build thread, I would like to add that one of the most exciting things about this EV now that it is up and running, is the ability to charge where ever and whenever I want. Some of you have probably seen me ranting about the j plug in other threads, but in case you have not, I will now. The j plug as I understand it was developed by the SAE, by a bunch of engineers on a committee to be the "standard" plug for EVs. What they did not take into consideration, was that we ALREADY HAVE a standard power grid. For decade after decade, we have seen standard plugs, and every electrical appliance is equipped to plug into this already standardized power grid. Anyways, I have built my EV to include a STANDARD power box behind the fuel door, which is equipped with a MALE 220 welder plug, which can be changed at anytime to whatever I want, but I have a bunch of welders in my shop, so 50 amp 220v welder plug it was. Up front on my fender, I have a 110 MALE receptacle. As nice as it is to have a welder receptacle for charging at work, the 110 plug is the most important. This is what oem manufacturers have not figured out yet. The 110v receptacle is simply the most common plug in the United States, and this is what every American pictures in their mind when we talk about plugging something in. If your EV is not equipped with this plug in North America, you are in for a lot of hassle trying to charge, and your EV will not make sense to own. The J plug may have its merits, but it just does not make sense to have this obscure plug as the only option. It is ok to have one of these obscure plugs, but there must be a LEGITIMATE source of charging as well. This is where I am really excited about my build. There is the feeling of satisfaction to step back and say "I built that", but the satisfaction is not as great as seeing it charge at my buddy's house or in any new environment that allows for a regular old extension cord. I was looking for freedom from the gas pump, but now that I understand the burden of trying to charge an oem EV via the weird round plug, I have to say that this is TRUE freedom!


----------



## HPEVS (Jun 6, 2012)

TEV said:


> How about installing a "regeneration OFF button" on the shifter ? I was thinking to do this if shifting will be a problem in reg. mode.


 I have recently created a software package that does this. When you shift gears, you press the button and it shuts down the throttle and sets a new level of neutral braking. The shift level of neutral braking as well as the normal neutral braking are both adjustable. This way can can set the coast down of the motor when shifting without sacrificing your pedal up regen. Feel free to give us a call if interested. It will require re-flashing the controller

Thanks, Brian


----------



## mcbrems (Oct 28, 2011)

What happens when you take your lady out to the cineplex and dinner, and you want to eat at the grownup table with the Teslas, Volts and Leafs, with preferential parking?


----------



## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

I like myself a lot, but I can live without special parking. The Leafs will probably be late for dinner anyway, since they will be on a wild goosechase looking for a rare plug. My beef with the rare plug is not its function, but rather the lack of a normal plug. Equip an oem EV with a normal plug, and this is what people will use. Would you buy a vacuum cleaner that only came equipped with a 2/0 anderson connector? It will still work with an adapter, but given a choice, people will buy the one that has a normal plug.


----------



## mcbrems (Oct 28, 2011)

evmetro,

There are a couple things about the J-Plug that are important to note. Especially since these have to be made idiot-proof to function in public spaces. 

The first is the pilot signal provision that serves as a handshake between the car and the EVSE. This makes sure the plug is properly seated and contact is made before sending power. There is also a degree of weather proofing built into the design, since someone could theoretically charge in the rain. Another is the varying length of the pins within the plug, to ensure that if the plug is yanked while charging, the pilot signal is broken first, cutting the juice before the power pins separate, preventing damaging electrical arcing on separating pins.

For charging from a home outlet, why not install the standard J receptacle on the car, and then build J-to-NEMA adapters with a high amp-rated switch in-line? That way, you can do the pilot switch function manually while using standard outlets, and then you can always plug-in publicly without the hassle of dragging your extensions out of the trunk.

This is how I did it:

http://914electric.wordpress.com/2012/04/22/j1772-receptacle-hack/
http://914electric.wordpress.com/2012/08/21/babys-first-charge/

Cheers,
McB


----------



## mcbrems (Oct 28, 2011)

tomofreno said:


> The data was collected using Curtis software for the controller, and I had a webcam mounted at the windshield.


What is the difference between Amps, and BMS Motor Current in the display?

It looks to be a 36 cell setup at about 120V. If these are CALB cells, what is the rating for continuous discharge current? I have heard 2C, 3C, and 4C. Hard to get a response from CALB themselves, and the spec sheets are vague in regard to continuous C rating. 

Their docs for the SE180AHA cells give a 1000A burst (5.5C), but list the recommended discharge as .3C (54A).
http://www.calibpower.com/ProductDetails.aspx?p=1&id=5

Thanks,
McB


----------



## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

I do not see a pilot signal on my miller welder, and I don't see one on my vacuum cleaner. If my appliances are not plugged in right, they do not work. I do have ac main contactors that are powered via shore power ac, and after the orion is happy, it connects my ac main contactors via the charger safety signal.

It is possible that in the future, the rare plug will become common enough to where I would mock up something like what you have done. The rare plug would the serve as a back up, but not be the primary charging source. I think that the existing power grid will stand the test of time.


----------



## palmer_md (Jul 22, 2011)

Couple of points that should be mentioned.

1. The j plug has been designed to handle thousands of connections and disconnections over its lifetime. The regular Nema 5-15 is rated in hundreds of connections. Construction contractors replace their extension cords yearly because of this. It's nice to not have to worry about the connector wearing out quickly for my car that gets connected at least once per day.

2. The j plug has the pilot signal and handshake to keep the open end of the cord de-energized until the handshake is completed. this is a nice safety feature to keep people from getting shocked from the cord, particularly nice when you are plugging in your car outside and in the rain.

3. the most important feature of the j plug is that the handshake tells the car how much to draw at a maximum. this keeps you from drawing too much current and then tripping a breaker or blowing a fuse. If you have a car with a charger that can draw 40 amps and you drive up to a j plug that is wired to a circuit that only supports 16 amps because it is on a 20 amp breaker, then the pilot signal tells the car not to draw more than 16 amps and the car will throttle back the charger to not blow the fuse. If you just plugged it in without this signaling you would quickly blow the circuit and then you could not charge at all.

Obviously all this is important out in the public charging because there are many different cars plugging into the same outlets. At home none of this matters and a regular nema plug is just fine. I do agree on one point that we do not need any of this stuff for 120v charging since I'm not aware of any charger that can draw more than 16 amps on a 120v circuit. 240v charging is where this is all needed.


----------



## onegreenev (May 18, 2012)

evmetro said:


> I like myself a lot, but I can live without special parking. The Leafs will probably be late for dinner anyway, since they will be on a wild goosechase looking for a rare plug. My beef with the rare plug is not its function, but rather the lack of a normal plug. Equip an oem EV with a normal plug, and this is what people will use. Would you buy a vacuum cleaner that only came equipped with a 2/0 anderson connector? It will still work with an adapter, but given a choice, people will buy the one that has a normal plug.



Just a note: I had to go to the Roseville Galleria Mall to get my Mac fixed today. I can drive my Leaf there as long as I plug in while I am there. They have two public charge stations which I have used but once. Now that there is a very fast growing electric car segment in the area I felt that it may not be a good thing to take the electric. I decided to go with my TDI instead. I am glad I did. There were three electric vehicles parked next to two charge stations and both stations were being used. I'd have been in a world of hurt if I had taken my Leaf. I would have had to wait until someone left then wait while I charged. My TDI saved the day. Cheaper than our gasser but not super clean. We do have low sulfur diesel here. Thats good. But there is now a need to have more charge stations. No manual plug outlet would have helped as there are no standard plugs available to use unless I had gone to a friends home that way way out of the way. Charge stations need to be put in. Old charge stations with old paddle style inputs need to be changed to the new j1772 plugs. 

So you may still find it hard to find an opportunity to charge when out and about. Search out your options before you go or you may find yourself stranded. 

Looking to get the new 2013 Leaf with the bells and whistles. Lease package. My guy at the dealer is going to try to get me into one without taking a hard hit on the one I purchased. Otherwise I will keep what I have. In my local area my Leaf is perfect. Go to town and work with no worries. 

Pete


----------



## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

Palmer or anyone else... what other devices use a pilot signal? I do a lot of welding with 220 welders and none of them have a pilot signal... 

I realized today that my 110v extension cord that I have been using to charge with is the same one that I used for six years as a tool dealer. My tooltruck was the regular Snap On program truck and had the same male 110 receptacle as I have in my EV. I just left it laying in my driveway year round and plugged in as soon as I got home from my route. I ran my store lights and computers running for hours every night, and kept my motor warm in the winter. 

Greenev, I am glad to see a local. You and any other local EVrs should feel free to drop by anytime to bs or to charge. I have an EV conversion shop in Rancho Cordova, and a home in Lincoln. All I have at home is 110, but at my shop I have a 50 amp 220 welder plug available.


----------



## onegreenev (May 18, 2012)

evmetro,

I'd be happy to come on by and check out the place. My daughter and her family live in Rancho and that is where I moved from before coming out to Marysville. PM me with information on when and where and I'll come on out. If the mileage is not terrible far I might even make it with the Leaf to Rancho. I can get to Roseville no problem. 

Or I will take my TDI which will be my hybrid part of the two car setup.


----------



## mcbrems (Oct 28, 2011)

evmetro said:


> Palmer or anyone else... what other devices use a pilot signal? I do a lot of welding with 220 welders and none of them have a pilot signal...


That's fine for geeks like us, who hopefully have a healthy respect for electricity, but the _average _Joe is not going to leave his daughter around welding currents. Hell, I'm debating whether I want to spring $700 for an EVSE or just install a simple 200VAC run from my breaker box to the carport and use what I already have.

With my dual-purposed J-plug, I have the best of both worlds. I charge at home using a 110 outlet in my laundry room, but when I'm out in public, I get a lot of nice notes tucked under my wipers when I return to my little conversion, parked at the charging stations amongst the Volts, Tesla Model Ss, and Leafs.

https://914electric.wordpress.com/2012/11/02/charging-etiquette/

Good luck finding an unattended 110 outlet in the local mall parking structure that you won't get your knuckles rapped for pirating.

McB


----------



## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

I would avoid the evse. Consumers who buy oem EVs are being forced this direction, and in the spirit of freedom, I suggest not "complying" with what people are being forced to do. There are fewer of us left that understand this traditional spirit. Besides, do you want to leave this high dollar item left out for someone to steal? I am a vet who served this country for a decade, and served in the sand, So I will fight to the end on this issue. I will respect others rights to choose what they want to use, but I really hope that those who utilize the j plug in any way would rally up some support for the need to have oem EVs equipped with a "STANDARD" plug as well.


----------



## mcbrems (Oct 28, 2011)

Once we all start begging our municipalities to install DC fast chargers, this whole issue will be moot. Unless you want to splurge on a 440 drop and a rectifier for your garage.


----------



## onegreenev (May 18, 2012)

evmetro said:


> I would avoid the evse. Consumers who buy oem EVs are being forced this direction, and in the spirit of freedom, I suggest not "complying" with what people are being forced to do. There are fewer of us left that understand this traditional spirit. Besides, do you want to leave this high dollar item left out for someone to steal? I am a vet who served this country for a decade, and served in the sand, So I will fight to the end on this issue. I will respect others rights to choose what they want to use, but I really hope that those who utilize the j plug in any way would rally up some support for the need to have oem EVs equipped with a "STANDARD" plug as well.


Actually I think the EVSE is fine but I would stay away from the big guys $2k EVSE when you can make your own and or buy one for $700 from Home Depot. The EVSE is just a smart plug for your new purchased EV. You can incorporate that into your own build to take advantage of the EVSE while out in town if you happen to have a new charge station available. I like the EVSE or J1772 plug because it is very durable. The standard drier plug is sturdy but for the 110 side of things the standard NEMA is not so durable. The become loose and sloppy. I did an excellent plug with my first build that used a specific plug but would fit into the standard Drier/Range plug and only used two of the terminals. It it was used on the old Lester Chargers for golf carts. It was durable and safe. I liked it. Plenty of different ways to do the charge ports but its good for home builds to use a few types so you have a choice. 

The current EVSE's from AeroVironment are way too expensive for what they are. I'd put in a 1772 plug in my Roadster so I can take advantage of public stations with them and others to take advantage of other types. Since my Leaf needs an EVSE I have one. I did not go for the one from Nissan. I felt from the beginning that it was way too expensive and went another route. 

So go with one if you need it or at least put in a plug so you can take advantage of the public stations. No real need to have an EVSE if you build your own vehicle. I think they are fine. It makes it so if some issue is not quite right with the power or plug or something the car can't charge. Its just a safety issue. Not a real big deal. But a solid plug and something that won't wear out or at least right away.


----------



## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

Needing to use the weird plug to utilize public charging means that you are being FORCED to use this system. No standard plug means that if you don't have the weird plug you can't charge there. So who decides what charging options are available at these stations? I smell government... whatever the government is up to, you can be sure it does not make sense. When you see Leafs and Teslas charging, this is not the "grown up table", it is the sheep table.


----------



## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

Lets say a new filler neck style is invented for ICE vehicles. This new filler neck would reduce gas fumes into the air by .000001%, but a regular filler nozzle will not work on it. Lets say all new cars come out with this design, and all the gas stations change all of their nozzles. If you owned a bunch of nice cars already, would this piss you off? You would probably sound like me on some forum, bitching about how there was nothing wrong with the way the pumps were, but people would just reply about how much cleaner the environment is and why you should spend a grand on a nozzle adapter that you can carry around in a suitcase in your trunk.


----------



## onegreenev (May 18, 2012)

evmetro said:


> Lets say a new filler neck style is invented for ICE vehicles. This new filler neck would reduce gas fumes into the air by .000001%, but a regular filler nozzle will not work on it. Lets say all new cars come out with this design, and all the gas stations change all of their nozzles. If you owned a bunch of nice cars already, would this piss you off? You would probably sound like me on some forum, bitching about how there was nothing wrong with the way the pumps were, but people would just reply about how much cleaner the environment is and why you should spend a grand on a nozzle adapter that you can carry around in a suitcase in your trunk.



They did that already. Its called the no lead nozzle. When unleaded came out before they phased out leaded gas all the new cars ran off unleaded. Pissed off a bunch of people. Pissed off the gas stations too because they now had to buy them. Actually its just an added business expense. Now all nozzles are unleaded size and you can't use the old huge nozzles from the days of leaded gasoline. They have all been replaced. 

Also remember that someone decided what kind of plug to use for your range and drier. And your three prong house hold plug. They are different than in Europe and also someone decided that the US would use 110 instead of 220 as the normal household voltage. 

Someone decides everything. At some point nothing is standard until someone finally says enough is enough and something becomes standard across the board. 

Imagine if there were no standards at all. Every item would have their own rendition like Tesla using a totally in house plug. Nothing like anything else. Light bulbs too. Some were two prong plug in and some were screw in. Screw in won in the US. Still today we use the screw on bulb. 

I have no issue with the standard. It works and is stout to handle abuse and loads of plug and unplug situations safely. 


And like we have all said we can on our own use what we want. There are a few choices. 

The Electric Car is like the Unleaded in that you have a specific nozzle/plug you can use. No real biggie. 

I don't see it as a political thing.


----------



## major (Apr 4, 2008)

evmetro said:


> Needing to use the weird plug to utilize public charging means that you are being FORCED to use this system.


You're not being forced to use anything. These "public" charge stations are provided by individuals, companies and municipalities that pay for the hardware and installation and utility. They also assume certain liability. It is their right and the public expectation they do so responsibly. Most of them choose to use the SAE J1772 standard. That is a good thing.

You do not have to use those charge stations so are not forced to do anything. They are provided for the convenience of customers and citizens who operate EVs equipped with the standard SAE J1772. 



evmetro said:


> No standard plug means that if you don't have the weird plug you can't charge there.


It is the standard SAE J1772.



evmetro said:


> So who decides what charging options are available at these stations?


That would be the party paying for the equipment, real estate, installation and utility cost.



evmetro said:


> I smell government....


You can smell whatever you like, but the SAE J1772 is an industry standard, not government.



evmetro said:


> When you see Leafs and Teslas charging, this is not the "grown up table", it is the sheep table.


I don't care what table you choose, or what charge plug you use. We've been through this before.* You built your own DIY EV. Good for you. You get to choose what plug you want. If your choice limits your options to utilize certain charge stations, it is your problem, not mine, and not the rest of the world.

You go on in your next post about the gasoline pump filler nozzle and tube. Don't you think these are built and installed to a standard? What if you built a DIY ICE car using a garden hose filler tube? Would you be bitching about those gas stations using the non-standard nozzles "forcing" you to conform to a safe means of delivery of a hazardous substance on their property?

* Ref: http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showthread.php?t=79913


----------



## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

Sheep. I can't believe it. I feel like I am trying to explain how you are not entitled to something unless you earn it to a room full of liberals.

Major, have you ever heard of the fox guarding the hen house? Remember you were a member of the SAE who developed this over engineered mess of a plug. I would think that it would be hard to view over engineered products objectively if you are an engineer. Your replys are most welcome on this subject, and you are one of the funnest guys on this forum to debate with.


----------



## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

Major, as stated in post 124, my beef with the j plug is not the function, but rather the lack of a standard plug . Why do you suppose there is no normal plug on oem EVs?


----------



## major (Apr 4, 2008)

evmetro said:


> Major, as stated in post 124, my beef with the j plug is not the function, but rather the lack of a standard plug . Why do you suppose there is no normal plug on oem EVs?


The SAE J1772 is the standard. It now is the "normal" plug on OEM EVs. 



Qer said:


> Which of all the now used "standard connectors" do you call "normal"?


----------



## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

Nice side step


----------



## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

You can put a 2/0 anderson connector on a vacuum cleaner and call it standard, but that does not make it standard.


----------



## major (Apr 4, 2008)

evmetro said:


> You can put a 2/0 anderson connector on a vacuum cleaner.....


This is an excellent analogy of you using a welder plug on your EV.


----------



## Ziggythewiz (May 16, 2010)

evmetro said:


> Major, as stated in post 124, my beef with the j plug is not the function, but rather the lack of a standard plug . Why do you suppose there is no normal plug on oem EVs?


Why would a J1772 include a Nema 5-15? OEMs don't use the Nema because they want you to buy their plug for an extra $1-3K, and they need to keep everything as complicated as possible to support their business model.


----------



## onegreenev (May 18, 2012)

Actually I would rather use a better plug and socket than what you get with the household. Household plug and sockets are designed to be plugged in and left alone for years at a time. Yes they are used at RV parks but they are still designed for occasional use and not daily use like you see in a plugin car. They do get sloppy. I only know of one plug I mentioned that works great with the drier/range sockets. Beyond that household stuff is not sufficent to safely do the job over the long haul. The one I mentioned is not a normal one either and is and was used as a standard on golf carts. 


It's not a political issue but a safety issue. Household sockets had to pass standards too.


----------



## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

Major, my welder plug is in a standardized power box. I use a welder plug in it because I have that in my shop, but if somebody bought my car and wanted a dryer receptacle instead, they could pick up a plug from home depot and change it in 10 minutes, just like you would in your laundry room.


----------



## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

Major, why do you suppose that oem EVs do not offer a standard plug like the ones found in household garages? Also, If you were to put a 2/0 anderson connector on a vacuum cleaner and the sae called it standard, would it be standard?


----------



## frodus (Apr 12, 2008)

Just one little thing. I hope you've got an on/off switch on that charger. Household/welding plugs aren't rated for loaded plugging. They should be inserted and then switched on. 

If you do plug it in with the charger immediately going on, you get a small arc and the plug is degraded. 

Choose what you want. The chargers I've seen here have an option of both j1772 and Edison.


----------



## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

Frodus, would ac main cantactors triggered by the orions safety circuit and a charger enable circuit fit those parameters? I also have my charge interlock circuit toggled on... also, you are right on the money with the last statement where chargers are equipped with a choice. That is my whole point.


----------



## frodus (Apr 12, 2008)

Ask orion what they recommend.


----------



## major (Apr 4, 2008)

evmetro said:


> Major, why do you suppose that oem EVs do not offer a standard plug like the ones found in household garages?


My take: OEM EV makers offer products using automotive standards. These standards are recognized across the automotive industry and across the support equipment industry and also internationally. There was no existing standard which met the needs, so SAE developed J1772. Compliance to SAE J1772 is voluntary. But any serious seller of EVs or EV equipment to the public uses it. Hobbyists, or anyone for that matter, can use whatever they want. Just stop whining about it 



evmetro said:


> Also, If you were to put a 2/0 anderson connector on a vacuum cleaner and the sae called it standard, would it be standard?


I believe large battery powered vacuum cleaners do use 2/0 Anderson connectors. But since those are not automotive in nature, SAE does not develop standards for them. Perhaps OSHA or UL does. What's the point


----------



## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

major said:


> There was no existing standard which met the needs, so SAE developed J1772.


We have been plugging stuff in for at least 50 years without a j plug. Now, engineers are running out of job security, and have to come up with new stuff to keep revenue flowing. 



> Compliance to SAE J1772 is voluntary.


If you buy an oem EV and want to charge it, the j plug does not look so voluntary. If I want to plug into a charging station that complies with the national electric code, it is not voluntary. If Compliance was truly voluntary, people would upgrade to it based on its merits and not because car manufacturers won't provide a way to just plug your car in like you would any other appliance. They know that if people could just use a normal extension cord, that people would, and the j plug would never make it. "We the people" did not ask for the j plug, but I'll bet I can find one in a facility that my tax dollars pay for, and off limits to non complying EVers.




> I believe large battery powered vacuum cleaners do use 2/0 Anderson connectors. But since those are not automotive in nature, SAE does not develop standards for them. Perhaps OSHA or UL does. What's the point


Nice side step. I have a pretty good feeling that you know what I am talking about. My point is the answer that you keep avoiding every time I ask this question, and how it compares to:



major said:


> The SAE J1772 is the standard. It now is the "normal" plug on OEM EVs.


I am curious... why do you think oem manufacturers do not equip new EVs with a standard plug? If the j is the new standard plug for EVs, can you not see that it is a problem when the J is not the standard plug in residential garages where people park their cars all night?


----------



## major (Apr 4, 2008)

evmetro said:


> I am curious... why do you think oem manufacturers do not equip new EVs with a standard plug?


They do. It is the SAE J1772 standard plug.

You may not like it. So what? Use whatever you want. You do not have to buy an EV with the j-plug. Or if you buy it, you can alter it to whatever you want.

If you don't like charge stations which service the standard SAE J1772 equipment, don't use them. Just charge your EV at welding shops


----------



## onegreenev (May 18, 2012)

I also remember when the induction paddles were standard. We still have them around here that are operational but totally useless for even those with Nema plugs. It is what is and you either go along or not. No issue. If you don't like them you don't buy. Its that simple. 

For my own conversion though I'd consider putting in a socket to accept the J1772 plug so when you have the opportunity to use one you can. You can also set up for the Nema Drier/Range or Welder. 

What does the welder plug/socket look like? 

Pete


----------



## onegreenev (May 18, 2012)

It's all good no matter what you use. It is also a personal choice. It's all good. No gripes and no muss and no fuss.


----------



## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

Major, thanks for the debate. I am a little disappointed that you avoided answering a number of questions, but the lack of answers on your part does show me where I am on the right track. With the ability to dodge these questions the number of times that you did, you may want to look into politics. As stated earlier, I maintain that I have no problem with the rare plug that OEMs are installing on new EVs as far as function, but that I have a big problem with the lack of a standard plug as found in residential garages and 99.9% (estimate) of North Americas power grid. Let me point out this ratio... 100% of new EVs are equipped with a plug that matches less than 1% of the power grid where they are marketed. Major, with this kind of ratio, there will be many questions that you can"t answer, and you can bet that the government is most certainly involved.


----------



## major (Apr 4, 2008)

evmetro said:


> Major, thanks for the debate. I am a little disappointed that you avoided answering a number of questions, but the lack of answers on your part does show me where I am on the right track. With the ability to dodge these questions the number of times that you did, you may want to look into politics. As stated earlier, I maintain that I have no problem with the rare plug that OEMs are installing on new EVs as far as function, but that I have a big problem with the lack of a standard plug as found in residential garages and 99.9% (estimate) of North Americas power grid. Let me point out this ratio... 100% of new EVs are equipped with a plug that matches less than 1% of the power grid where they are marketed. Major, with this kind of ratio, there will be many questions that you can"t answer, and you can bet that the government is most certainly involved.





evmetro said:


> ... but that I have a big problem with the lack of a standard plug as found in residential garages and 99.9% (estimate) of *North America*s power grid.


This is a basic problem with your logic. Even in North America there was no existing standard "plug" suitable for EV charging which could be offered as a safe reliable automotive component. You also neglect the rest of the world. From this web site: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AC_power_plugs_and_sockets#Types_in_present_use Which plug is standard? Which one will meet the needs for EVs worldwide?

Face it, SAE J1772 is the automotive standard charge plug. A suitable worldwide standard did not exist so one was developed. It is unlike anything previously available in your local hardware store. OEM EVs and EVSE charge stations are new to the marketplace and needed some new parts to make the products safe, reliable and common worldwide.

I think that answers your question precisely. I've been saying this since you started blaming government months ago. It is not political. It is common sense and sound engineering to facilitate the new EV market worldwide. If you don't like it, come up with a better standard and sell that to the world.


----------



## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

Major, I am more impressed with the strength your last post, and had hoped to have more of this in a debate with you. My harsh view of the j plug is softened, and I think that when there are a reasonable number of charging stations available, I may begin incorporating a j plug on my conversions. In the meantime, an EV that is only equipped with a j plug would be almost worthless, and not worthy of the grown up table. Credit for the grown up table should go to the guy who can charge in the most places without carrying a suitcase in his trunk. Having a diy EV equipped with 110, 220 and a j plug probably wins. At this time, I will not bother with it, due to the extremely limited number of j plug stations, but I will be watching them more closely now. I have noticed that all new cars, ICE or EV, are equipped with a spare tire... nothing substantial, and with disclaimers all over them, but they are able to get you where you need to be. I would hope that the folks who saw the need for the j plug might also see that the need for an "emergency" charging port is probably going to be even more important than a spare tire on an EV. For this "emergency" charging port, a common plug would do just fine. Most consumers would not even know that common plugs worked just fine for more than fifty years before the j plug was introduced. Thanks to all of you who participated in this debate, and to the guy who brought in "the grown up table", it sounds like you are one of the select few.


----------



## major (Apr 4, 2008)

evmetro said:


> I would hope that the folks who saw the need for the j plug might also see that the need for an "emergency" charging port is probably going to be even more important than a spare tire on an EV. For this "emergency" charging port, a common plug would do just fine.


When I bought my EV it came with one of these in the trunk next to a can of flat-tire-fix. I used the 110V adapter for about 3 weeks until I got the 230V EVSE installed in my garage. I keep the 110V adapter in the trunk just-in-case. I've used it about 3 times in the past 6 months. I think most if not all ready-made EVs come with such an adapter.

http://stores.intuitwebsites.com/ClipperCreekInc/media/00/a64733d1314f45ca55b699_m.jpg










It is more than just an extension cord/adapter. The first time I attempted to use it was at friend's house and it would not operate on his patio receptacle due to a malfunctioning ground on his circuit. So we moved to a different outlet which did have a proper ground and it charged properly overnight. This is a safety feature which I appreciate.

Since I routinely charge in my garage overnight and typically travel about 30 miles per day, I could have gotten by with this 110V charge only. At 12A it charges about 3 miles per hour. So 10 hours....30 miles for the next day. However I elected to install a 230V L2 EVSE in my garage. This cuts my charge time by more than half. It means I don't worry if I need to travel 60 miles/day several days in a row or even make several trips per day starting with a full charge. 

Even installing the L2 EVSE myself and getting a heck of a deal on the unit, it still was expensive. However I consider it worthwhile for the convenience and additional utility it provides as well as the increase in value to my home. Should I sell my home, it has facility to charge the new owner's plug-in EV or HEV. 

Using my EV I find I do practically all my charging at home. However I did make a lengthy trip well in excess of my range. I was able to locate a charge station (free) at a mall nearby my destination. It was a L2 EVSE and I charged there for 4 hours while I took care of business. I do not see how that would have been possible for me without the SAE J1772 standard. I would have had to resort to plan B and burn about 6 gallons of gas 

I share this EV with Darlene, a sweet woman of small stature. She has no problem with the charger connection (J-plug) either in the garage or a time or two at public charge stations. She can use the 110V adapter when needed. But I am quite sure she would not handle a welder plug, as you call it. And I would not be comfortable seeing her attempt it.

Between the two of us, we may charge our EV 300 times a year, maybe more. I seriously doubt the 110V plug on the adapter would last more than a few years. I am fairly confident the J-plug will outlive the EV. Yeah, I know I can replace the 110V plug for $5.

I have a number of EVs. And I have been using EVs for many years. I hadn't given the J-plug much thought until I bought this EV which was equipped with it. Frankly I was surprised how much I like it. I don't intend to install it on any of the other EVs, at least right away. Most of those do not have on-board chargers anyway. 

Like I have said several times to you: Use whatever plug you want. But please don't badmouth the SAE J1772 standard. It will help the EV cause making EVs easier and safer to use and ultimately more economical than any other charging options currently available. 

Will we see better charging options come along in the future? Probably. This J1772 is quite different than the paddle style EVSE and chargers used by the EV1 and EV-RAV4 15 years ago. Things will change again. But I think the J-plug is here for a long while


----------



## Ziggythewiz (May 16, 2010)

evmetro said:


> I have noticed that all new cars, ICE or EV, are equipped with a spare tire.


Many no longer come with one...a can o fix-o-flat is one way to cut costs that the consumer may not immediately balk at, and it allows you to meet space/mileage constraints easier.


----------



## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

Although my view has softened on the j plug and I can see its benefits, I still can't help noticing the elephant standing in the middle of the room. I am not quite sure why nobody is a seeing that no matter how good the j plug is, the fact remains that a normal plug IS capable of charging an EV and IS the most accessible plug at this time. While innovation will advance our industry, equipping an EV with only this one plug without the appropriate infrastructure to support it just does not make any sense. The j plug should be installed on new EVs, but during this transition time, an alternative charging source should be present as well, and it WILL make charging easier. We should fast forward ten years into the future when a new plug is introduced to supersede the j plug. Should we strip the j plug system completely out of the charging stations and equip all the new EVs with only the new ones? Would a new system mean that the j plug system is no longer an appropriate way to charge your 2013 leaf?


----------



## major (Apr 4, 2008)

evmetro said:


> the fact remains that a *normal plug* IS capable of charging an EV and IS the most accessible plug at this time.


You mean all 127 normal plugs?


----------



## frodus (Apr 12, 2008)

Nothing changes the fact that all of the residential plugs you've mentioned are NOT meant to last while being inserted under load. They're all meant to be inserted and then have the device turned on. As soon as you plug in a charger (unless you have some sort of switch to enable it AFTER plugging it in), the plug will arc as the charger draws a load. This wears out both the socket and plug.

J1772 eliminates that. The charger is not enabled until you plug the J1772 in and the enable to the charger is triggered.... at least if you've made a circuit to enable the charger AFTER the plug is inserted.... some people aren't fully J1772, which will wear out the plugs/receptacles. Also, the vehicle can signal to the J1772 to stop if there are any errors. It can also sense a short and stop charging at the J1772, rather than continue to supply voltage if there is a ground fault, or some other short.... which would be in your vehicle. I realize a breaker does this as well, but that is all built into the J1772 standard.

I realize you think it's some conspiracy to get us to all conform to a standard.... but it's got more than just that. There are safety and life-cycle concerns to consider.


----------



## njloof (Nov 21, 2011)

How much does it cost to provide J1772 charging as an *option* on an EV for opportunity charging? By my eye, it's $155 for a modularEV inlet & AVC2 controller, plus a few bucks for an AC switch you can use for dual purpose activate/safety switch: throw it one way, and you activate charging through your NEMA inlet; throw it the other, and you disconnect the NEMA outlet so you don't have live power on it during J1772 charging.

Thoughts?


----------



## Ziggythewiz (May 16, 2010)

The plug under load crap should be handled by the charger anyway, not the power supply. Even my stupid QuickCharger can manage that just fine.

The issue I have with the J1772 is the way DC plugs were added as an afterthought. A better system would be able to detect/specify AC vs DC and use common connectors.

Really, the thing's hideous.


----------



## major (Apr 4, 2008)

Ziggythewiz said:


> Really, the thing's hideous.


Not as hideous as this:


----------



## Ziggythewiz (May 16, 2010)

You do realize the new was designed to resemble the old, right?


----------



## major (Apr 4, 2008)

Ziggythewiz said:


> You do realize the new was designed to resemble the old, right?


So what do you want it to look like...a cute little bunny rabbit


----------



## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

If a committee of engineers can design the j plug, why can't they figure out how to plug in a regular extension cord without having a load present?. I am not on an engineer committee and there is no load on my 110 or 220 charging ports, even if the charger is turned on. The plugging in under load issue should be easier to solve than engineering a pilot signal. A diy guy could install an off the shelf relay with a built in adjustable timer to fire up the ac main contactors. I think those are about 40 bucks.


----------



## Ziggythewiz (May 16, 2010)

I'd prefer an extension cord.


----------



## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

The 110 extension cord that I use is the same one that I used every day rain or shine to plug in my Snap On tool truck. When I came home from my route every day, I would pick up the end that I left laying in my gravel driveway and plug it in, under load. It ran my store lights, computers, battery charger, inverters, stereo and block heater. I then used that extension cord in a bodyshop for a few years, and now it is plugged into the fender of my EV. It may not have been rated for the number of times that it has been plugged in, or for those six years of weather that it has endured, but it is sure working great now.


----------



## dougingraham (Jul 26, 2011)

evmetro said:


> If a committee of engineers can design the j plug, why can't they figure out how to plug in a regular extension cord without having a load present?. I am not on an engineer committee and there is no load on my 110 or 220 charging ports, even if the charger is turned on. The plugging in under load issue should be easier to solve than engineering a pilot signal. A diy guy could install an off the shelf relay with a built in adjustable timer to fire up the ac main contactors. I think those are about 40 bucks.


The problem the J1772 standard solves is having lethal voltage at the plug when you plug in. The J1772 protocol prevents this. If you plug in an extension cord in your garage to a 110 outlet and then walk out to the car you have a cable that is energized. Most chargers will have some kind of inrush limiting at startup because if they didn't they would pop the breaker upon plug in. The pilot and proximity signals are to prevent you from being electrocuted under adverse conditions. It is safe enough that you could fill a bathtub with water and add salt to make it conductive and get in with J connector and you will feel nothing. The pilot signal also is supposed to tell the charger how much current the charger is allowed to pull. The zero current thing is required to prevent erosion of the high power contacts so they will last essentially forever. Standard outlets have a rather low number of insertion cycles. I would guess a thousand would be pushing it. And a lot less than that if there is a significant load at plug in time. You might get a year of daily use out of a "standard plug" if used daily on an EV. They were not engineered for daily use.

The adaptors for J1772 to 110vac are not hideously expensive. I remember seeing one on Amazon or Ebay for around $500. I could be wrong but I was under the impression that most of the OEM vehicles come with one as standard equipment.

None of this matters at all if you are building your own EV. You can do whatever you want to. Since I have been driving my EV daily I have charged at exactly 5 places. My garage. The other 4 places were while I was at EVCCon 2012 in Cape Girardeau. At the EVTV garage. At Jack Rickard's hanger. At the Show Me Center. And at the Drury hotel. You will probably find that this is just something you never worry about once you are driving the car daily.


----------



## frodus (Apr 12, 2008)

evmetro said:


> If a committee of engineers can design the j plug, why can't they figure out how to plug in a regular extension cord without having a load present?. I am not on an engineer committee and there is no load on my 110 or 220 charging ports, even if the charger is turned on. The plugging in under load issue should be easier to solve than engineering a pilot signal. A diy guy could install an off the shelf relay with a built in adjustable timer to fire up the ac main contactors. I think those are about 40 bucks.


So you propose that the DIY (or even OEM) make sure they install this off the shelf relay with an adjustable timer (along with a cord of their choice) so they can fire up a contactor after they sense the vehicle is plugged in?

Maybe you missed it, but that's exactly what the J1772 does.....


----------



## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

The timer relay would be for diy folks. Car manufacturers have engineer committees that should be smart enough to put everything that the j plug offers into the vehicle, allowing any country's cord to plug in. The US has its own requirements for importers, and something as minor as this could be implemented.


----------



## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

Frodus, I did not miss that that is what the j plug does, it was my point, and it costs only 40 bucks instead of a grand.


----------



## frodus (Apr 12, 2008)

Doing by what you said above:

Contactor, Relay or SSR that can shut off the AC going to the charger (30A/240V) $50
Plus
A time delay relay to trigger the above contactor $40
Plus
240V dryer plug 30A $15

So you're up to about $100 for DIY, or just buy a receptacle from newark for $113 and add a couple resistors and little auto relay to enable a charger.

And it doesn't cost a Grand for a home charger.... You can make up your own plug for $135 plus the cost of a Dryer plug for home charging.


----------



## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

If it is cheap and easy to have the features of a j plug without having a j plug, why would we want to introduce the world to EVs and have them equipped exclusively with pins that are specially designed to not fit ANY country's power grid?


----------



## frodus (Apr 12, 2008)

Because you can't go downtown/to the store/to the mall/just about anywhere and access a dryer plug..... only at home, or in special cases where you know they've got one.

If you don't want to, that's fine. I just don't think its a huge conspiracy.


----------



## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

If if EVs had the appropriately shaped pins in the first place, this would not be a problem. In fact, we would probably have lots more charging stations available, since there would be no mystery about the j plug. Thank you frodus for pointing out that the shape of the pins is not related to the function of the j plug. There is no reason to have a plug that is specially engineered to not fit anybodys outlet.


----------



## frodus (Apr 12, 2008)

wow, it's like we're on repeat with you.... 

The reason they have this connector is NOT just to piss you off, sorry to disappoint you. It's to make things 100% safe for everyone ALL the time, not just some of it. A dryer plug isn't safe for this application. It's built for residential, it's meant to stay plugged in, not be reinserted over and over, it's not weatherproof.

If people are allowed a dryer connection (etc), why would they add the relay and timer? They won't. It's not safe, it's not sealed, it doesn't protect against ground faults, it doesn't have a safe start, if anyone uses it on a direct load it will wear out quicker and need replacement, it's meant to be reinserted over and over.

Why build charging stations with many styles of different connectors, there are more than just dryer plugs (there's 4-5 different styles of those BTW), there's twistlock, edison, and tons of others. How do we settle on which one is a standard? How do we make sure it's safe for people? 

J1772 addressed those issues.... but a $15 dryer connector does not.


note: I don't remember saying anything about the pins and function.... the pins on a J1772 are made for a large number of insertions. Look at one, there's a spiral wound conductor inside the J1772 plug. They're totally different than normal residential plugs.


----------



## TEV (Nov 25, 2011)

frodus said:


> wow, it's like we're on repeat with you....
> 
> The reason they have this connector is NOT just to piss you off, sorry to disappoint you. It's to make things 100% safe for everyone ALL the time, not just some of it. A dryer plug isn't safe for this application. It's built for residential, it's meant to stay plugged in, not be reinserted over and over, it's not weatherproof.
> 
> ...



I totally agree with this.

And I plead for an end of this debate. This is worst than the BMS war 

Thank You.


----------



## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

Frodus, I thought that we had established that inserting a plug under load is what causes the plug or extension cord to wear out, but that if we put a basic timer relay before the ac main contactors, it would never get plugged in under load. If this is the case, making a more rugged pin that does not fit any power grid on the planet would be redundant, right?


----------



## frodus (Apr 12, 2008)

Arcing is only ONE part of what causes it to wear out. 

Inserting over and over and over is another. Dryer plugs and the receptacles are rated for a low number of insertions. The spring loaded contacts get dirty, corrode and lose their spring. Sure might not matter to you over the life of the plug end and in your house receptacle, but at the Charging station receptacle, hundreds of insertions a month.... it starts to degrade the socket quite a bit.

You're putting a large "if people install a relay" in front of it, that makes it safe what percentage of the time? much less than You'd be lucky to get 5% of the DIY community to comply.... While I may trust you to make this mod, I sure as hell don't trust some joe blow in his garage making a rectactor controller hooked between some LiPo and a forklift motor... charging it with an old Lester charger..... on an old dryer plug. 

It's an accident waiting to happen.


----------



## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

Tev, I am sure I would have enjoyed participating in the bms war. In this plug war, I have had the opportunity to debate with some of the sharpest people here, and have actually learned a lot of really good information. I would be really surprised if I was the only guy who has questioned why we have a charge port being installed on EVs that does not match any plug on the planet. This is just too big to ignore. We all KNOW without a doubt that the 110 and 220 plugs can and have worked for more than 50 years. So far Frodus has been the only guy to actually identify that if people were allowed to do what they want, that they will.



> If people are allowed a dryer connection (etc), why would they add the relay and timer? They won't.





> You're putting a large "if people install a relay" in front of it, that makes it safe what percentage of the time? much less than You'd be lucky to get 5% of the DIY community to comply....


----------



## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

Frodus, you are by far the sharpest one in this j plug discussion. You have been the only one so far who can see that people WILL do whatever they want, and that this special plug will govern us. Major danced around that one over and over. You are also the only one able to see that the features of a j plug did not require the special pins that don't fit anything. I am guessing that you also are aware that when a plug or cord wears out, they are not really that big of a deal to replace, and that they don't really wear out as much as the average j plug fan thinks they do, especially with the timer relay.


----------



## frodus (Apr 12, 2008)

Thanks, I think.....


----------



## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

Ok, so the plug is behind us and we all know that this EV is equipped with a "no J". Cool. So, onto bigger and better things. I tinkered with this EV a little today, trying to get the hv cuttoff and the low voltage cutoff dialed in. I have the individaul cells set for 3.5, and the max pack set for 119. The cell minimum is set for 2.7, and pack minimum set for 91.8. Anyways, both the high and low triggers occur before the pack discharges at 3c or reaches the 119 charge or 3.5 on any cell during charge. Is it safe to push it any lower than 2.7 during acceleration?


----------



## frodus (Apr 12, 2008)

depends on the batteries you've got. What's the LVC on the spec sheet?


----------



## dougingraham (Jul 26, 2011)

evmetro said:


> Is it safe to push it any lower than 2.7 during acceleration?


Yes. I've got my low voltage for the pack set to half nominal (1.6vpc) and when the pack is cold is the only time I see it get there. On days when it is below zero (F) I wish I had set it lower. You will be pretty badly limiting the way your car accelerates if you limit your motor control to 2.7vpc under heavy loads. And you wont even know it because the motor controllers are so good at current limiting. You will just think you have a wimpy car.

The batteries will only be harmed if they get too hot, the voltage goes somewhere above 4.2 volts, or the voltage goes negative when a cell is discharged.

What you are more interested in is a difference between cells while under load or charge. If they all behave the same you are in pretty good shape. If you have one that is acting oddly then you either live with it and keep an eye on it or replace it.

Of course there is nothing wrong with being ultra conservative and setting the cutoff to 2.7v. The car will be drivable and this will be fine. You can always turn it down later once you get it all sorted out and want to see what it can really do.


----------



## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

I have been watching them all on screen when they charge, and they all seem to do the same thing. The values where not identical to my multimeter, but close enough. I have not messed with the current limiting yet. I think I have to figure out how to link the controller to the orion via CAN to get this function. I have just been utilizing the charge safety, charge enable, and the discharge enable so far. 

The hypothetical c rating system gets confusing here for me. 3c for a 200 ah pack should be around 600 amps, but the pack sags to the low voltage cutoff before I reach that. And what about higher rating for bursts?


----------



## mcbrems (Oct 28, 2011)

evmetro said:


> Needing to use the weird plug to utilize public charging means that you are being FORCED to use this system. No standard plug means that if you don't have the weird plug you can't charge there.


Next thing you know, the government is going to build out an EV infrastructure, outlaw gas vehicles and require citizens to purchase expensive electric vehicles.

(ChargePoint stations have a standard 115 VAC NEMA outlet behind a door on the front that pops open for you.)

Just sayin.'


----------



## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

I suppose I should stop by and look at one of those stations. Maybe stick a finger out and touch one...


----------



## mcbrems (Oct 28, 2011)

evmetro said:


> ...I have not messed with the current limiting yet. I think I have to figure out how to link the controller to the orion via CAN to get this function.


I'm using the Curtis controller, which is not CAN enabled for current limiting with the Orion BMS, but Orion states there is a way to use the Discharge Current Limit (DCL) BMS output to limit the accelerator potbox. That seems more complicated than just having an alarm to let you know when you are pushing your pack too hard. You could use an inverse relay to sound a buzzer in the cabin once the DCL max value is reached, or you could do it this way:

Use the CAN capabilities of the Orion. Since I am using Torque with an Android tablet, I chose to create a custom OBDII PID that subtracts the DCL value from the Pack Amps value, leaving me with a value that indicates amps that can be safely drawn at any moment (especially during acceleration), and then displayed in the form of a virtual gauge in Torque. 

Instead of watching both the DCL _AND _Pack Amps gauges together, I just watch one gauge that simply declines to zero as amps become less available, like a redline on a tach in reverse. At any time, I can see how many straight up amps are available to draw, and when the gauge hits zero, Torque sounds an audible alarm. That way, I have the choice to throttle back or to push on and damage my pack at my own discretion, without some liberal government conspiracy automatically curbing my appetite for amps. 

The equation is VAL{Discharge Limit}-VAL{Battery Current}. The Discharge Limit max value is the number set in the Orion BMS using the Utility, and the max and min values on the Android gauge is definable by the user in Torque.

Fun.
McB


----------



## frodus (Apr 12, 2008)

The Curtis 1238 and Orion don't talk at this moment. 

Wire it up like this:
http://lithiumate.elithion.com/php/curtis_inverter.php

The DCL on the Orion is a 0-5V signal would essentially force the throttle to "throttle back" if you were in DCL.


----------



## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

Cool stuff...


----------



## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

Here is a pic of my front bumper before fiberglass. I used two inch masking tape to block all the openings, and to bridge the gap to the new lowered bottom edge.










I cut the bottom out of 3/4 mdf and clamped it down where I wanted it, about 2.5 inches lower than stock. I gave it a hair more width to push the air around my tires. In the next pic, I cut out a piece of 3/16 aluminum to the size of a license plate, and taped it down and stretched masking tape across it, so that my license plate will be more aerodynamic.











I also built up the upper lip where the hood closes to eliminate the air that comes in. The first couple of layers of glass are dry now, but there will be a lot of tuning to be done to get it just right. I will post pics when I have it looking pretty. This bumper is going to get painted, as well as the rest of the car before it gets back on the road.


----------



## tomofreno (Mar 3, 2009)

Nice. So you use that as a form for the glass? What is mdf? I looked at adding a belly pan, but it seemed it would have to be fairly narrow to not interfere with the suspension. I decided it likely wouldn't help much if that narrow.


----------



## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

Mdf is just particle board like subwoofer boxes are made out of. I sprayed the tape with a mold release agent so that I can pop the bumper and mdf out and have only the fiberglass as weight. made an aluminum frame for the underside so that I can just cover the whole bottom of the car with flat plastic. My floors are lowered under my seats to house 5 cells under each seat...











The pic above was with my rear seat pans tacked into place and ready to weld, and you can see where the front seat pans are lowered to accept 5 cells under each seat. The rear seat pans and the 90 degree angle in the tire well allow my twelve cell "gas tank" to bolt up from under the car. Anyways, the flat plastic underlay follows the same plane from the bottom of the front seat battery box floors all the way to the new custom bumper bottom.


----------



## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

I guess as long as I am posting pics, here is how 5 gbs 200 amp hour cells look under a seat...










Here is a pic of what a metro lovers world looks like...











Yes, there are more metros outside...


----------



## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

Here is one of my restorations... just need to get the ICE out of it...










That is also the same kind of front bumper that I am modifying above... you can see the air openings and the big gap/ opening at the bottom of the hood.


----------



## onegreenev (May 18, 2012)

So you must be the go to Metro Man. Metro City there


----------



## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

Here is a test fit of my "gas tank" before skinning the aluminum stock with sheet aluminum.











Below is another 12 cells under the hood


----------



## onegreenev (May 18, 2012)

Nice work and nice looking packs.


----------



## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

Thanks onegreenev. These cells come pre banded in four packs. With a 34 cell pack, I ended up with two unbanded cells, so that is why there are five under each seat. I unbanded two 4 packs and added a cell, then took them to a local shipper and had two 5 packs banded..


----------



## tomofreno (Mar 3, 2009)

Nice work! The rear seat depends on the curved sheet metal under it for support. How did you support it after modifying that sheet metal? (I'm looking down the road for when Envia 400Wh/kg cells are available cheap so I can use a shorter back battery box and put my rear seat back in).



> Here is a pic of what a metro lovers world looks like...


 No wonder I had such a difficult time finding a used metro or swift in good condition in the Sac/Reno area...



> Below is another 12 cells under the hood


 Huh, looks like 24 to me... 4 groups of 4 in the engine compartment, 2 groups of 4 in front behind the bumper? Randy at canev lowers the engine mounts by a couple inches so he can put a battery box across the engine compartment similar to what you did, but with cell terminals up (less tall cells, like 100Ah). 



> Here is one of my restorations... just need to get the ICE out of it...


 Looks nice! Did you paint the bumpers? Mine are just flat grey plastic. Thanks for the photos.


----------



## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

That is only 3 groups of four under the hood. Two four packs end to end across the top, and one four pack where the radiator went. The rear floor gets a huge amount of bracing from the angle welded into rhe tire well. (the spare still fits). There is more bracing on the bottom, so the flattened out rear seat pans do not need support. Kinda like the front seat pans. They too rely on the steel frame welded to the chassis and give more support to the floor than the oem floor. The whole chassis is stiffer than original, and feels great in the corners. Especially with the LOW center of gravity that the low slung batteries provide.


----------



## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

Here is the fiberglass shell with the original plastic bumper pulled back out.



















I knocked down the high spots and hit it with body filler... The lines are "crisp" here so that I can see if I am blocking them out straight. I will round them before primer











Here is the first coat of primer on the bumper. You can see that not much air will enter between the hood and bumper, or through any kind of openings...


----------



## tomofreno (Mar 3, 2009)

Nice!! How do you access the hood safety release lever?


----------



## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

Once you pull the hood release, the hood comes up a little when the primary latch is released. You still have to lift it a little to get your fingers into the safety lever. I have my eyes on some blue candy paint... I am thinking that this setup will look pretty slick with the license plate inside a bubble cover, and the bowtie emblem gone. Nothing but pretty paint, the license plate, and the headlites. I will have to hit the headlights with a buffer and bring them back to life.


----------



## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

I am updating to a clutch to compensate for the regen. I have the new hub and now I have taken the flywheel to a local machine shop to get it resurfaced. While it was there, I had them pull the ring gear, and then mill off the lip that it was pressed on. It is now a whole lot lighter. Here is a pick of a flywheel that is reconfigured for an ev.


----------



## tomofreno (Mar 3, 2009)

That's something that is on my list of things to do if I pull my motor out for some reason. Do you have acceleration data with the standard flywheel? Would be nice to compare. I would guess it might shave a second or so off 0 to 60 mph time. I estimated that if I replaced my flywheel with an aluminum one that weighs 7 lb, or 0.31 the weight of the original, the equivalent mass would be 194 lb in first gear and 55 lb in second gear (versus 627 and 178 for the original flywheel). The acceleration would be about 15% larger in first and about 5% larger in second gear, due to percent reduction in vehicle mass. I am in first gear for about 5 seconds and second for about 6 seconds when accelerating 0 to 60 mph, so I figured I might shave about 0.75 second off in first gear, and 0.3 seconds off the time in second gear, or about 1 second total. Hardly worth the purchase of an (expensive) aluminum flywheel I decided.


----------



## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

I am not too technical about my acceleration, but I know without a doubt that it was really quick. I only ran the clutchless hub with no flywheel, and I was also running with no interior. I was only driving it for a short time so that I could make sure everything was right before making it pretty. If it helps any, the weight loss program that I had done on my flywheel took off LOTS of weight. The three dowel pins that the pressure plate line up on are twice as long now that the two surfaces are cut down. You can see in the pic that the surface where the pressure plate goes is milled as well. I rolled the dice and cut a tiny bit more off of this surface compared to the friction surface to put more pressure on the friction plate. I have not fit it up yet, but I calculate that it will still disengage properly.


----------



## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

Okay, I got everything that I didn't want painted in the engine compartment out of the way. Figured I would paint this area first and then re install all the underhood components so that I don't have as many parts laying around when I paint the rest of the car.


----------



## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

Primer










Base coat










The base coat is drying overnight. Stay tuned for clear coat...


----------



## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

Got some clear on it today. time to re assemble!










It lights up a little in the light...


----------



## Ziggythewiz (May 16, 2010)

Looks great! Wish I had a spare month and the dedication to make mine look as good.


----------



## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

Yea, it sure does take up time. In the meantime I gotta keep going back to the gas pump...


----------



## tomofreno (Mar 3, 2009)

Nice work - lotta work. Should last a long time. You're making fast progress, especially for someone who is working full time.


----------



## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

This Metro had 280,xxx miles on the odometer when I pulled the ICE stuff, and I can sure tell as I rebuild it. As I put the suspension back together, I replaced the wheel bearings and seals, rotors, pads, struts.


----------



## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

Here is one of my homemade engine mount brackets. You can also see my vacuum pump.










I used the original heater core for my cooling circuit. I just welded the mounts for the heater core to the vertical support. You can also see the mounts that I welded on for my power post and fuse. 










My vacuum reservoir mounts under the controller. You may notice the cutout at the bottom of the controller tray... That opening is for the cooling lines on the chill plate. I also welded nuts to the back side of the tray so that I can just drop the bolts in and tighten instead of playing around trying to put a nut on the backside. I actually welded nuts to the back side of everything in this conversion, and you can remove any component like you are on a pit crew.


----------



## palmer_md (Jul 22, 2011)

looking good! I cant wait to see this thing in person.


----------



## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

Below is where I plug the charger in. I did not want to modify the cord on the Manzanita pfc40, so I wired in this outlet. This outlet comes after the ac main contactors, so the Orion can turn it on and off. Plugging in the charger here means that in emergency, I could bypass all of the circuitry in the car and plug the charger into shore power directly. It also leaves another 220 charging option if need be, since this is not the same as the 220v 50 amp welder plug that I have inside the fuel door. The box behind the plug is the standard metal box, and is welded in flush, and painted body color on both sides. The other reason I left the original cord on the charger in tact was that I can remove the charger pit stop style.


----------



## tomofreno (Mar 3, 2009)

I like the charger receptacle mount, as long as it is not where it will get wet. How did you handle waterproofing your receptacle inside the fuel door? Do wires run from it to the front of the car? It is right where the rear wheel will throw water and debris on it.


----------



## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

Funny you should mention the position of the fuel door being right above the rear wheel. The metal box that I used did set right over the rear tire, and in the water stream that comes up off of tire when you drive through water. I fabbed a shield out of stranded fiberglass. I just layed down masking tape where I wanted the shield, and spread on the glass.










After the glass set up, I pulled it off, trimmed it, shaped it, and added a layer of mat. Those three 2 piece clips come out quickly, so it takes all of 60 seconds to remove the shield. In another sixty seconds, you can have the whole metal box in your hand. 










You can kinda see the bulge from the metal box, and you can see the charge cord on the upper left. The cord is actually on the very back of the wheel well opening, and the background of that pic is my shop ceiling. Car is on the lift.


----------



## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

I had a clutchless hub but have switched to the clutch, This is the same bell housing adapter, but my motor mounts were already made for this so I just had a clutch hub made up for this bell housing to motor adapter to match.










It was a little too long in this next pic, and the pressure plate touched the throw out bearing and I still had 1/8" gap on the bell housing. I took it back to the machine shop that made it for me, and they cut it a little shorter for me. The free play between the pressure plate and throw out bearing is absolutely perfect now.










I went ahead and loaded the motor and tranny.


----------



## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

Got the controller and charger in...










The smaller reservoir on the right is a brake reservoir out of a Honda that I found at pick n pull... It holds my coolant and gives me a place to fill it up. All those 8 gauge wires go to a 12 volt + post, since the aux battery is located elsewhere.


----------



## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

Got the first four pack of cells in here. When the upper battery tray goes in, it overlaps this four pack and locks it in. You can see a bolt hole on both ends of this pack where I bolt the upper tray in. I left about 1 1/2 inches of angle sticking out where those bolt holes are.


----------



## johnjcbs (Oct 10, 2012)

Any updates?


----------



## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

Here is the upper battery tray in place. You can see the front lip that I added to the tray that holds in the lower pack.










I fabbed the back drivers side of the tray to fit into this convenient shape in the oem fuse block










The passenger side of the back of the tray was less convenient, so I fabbed a little pocket into the original sheet metal. You can see one of the bolt holes here for holding down the battery tray. As usual the nut is welded behind it so that you just start the bolt by hand, and then hit it with a power tool. I don't like messing around trying to start a nut on the back side of a part. Every component in this build has the nut welded to the back side like this so it is pretty easy to work on.










I welded a piece of aluminum angle to the back of the tray for my throttle cable. I thought about hiding it from view, but it seems pretty cool to see it work so there it is.


----------



## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

I also got the hood latch and horn prettied up and installed. Pretty new bolts too. Now that I see this pic, I think I will spiffy up that hood release cable a little...


----------



## favguy (May 2, 2008)

Hi,
I really must congratulate you on the quality of your build, truly exceptional workmanship, your attention to detail is just great!


----------



## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

Favguy, thanks for noticing. It has been a pleasure to put my fabrication and automotive skills into this, as well as putting in the ton of knowledge that I have gained from this site.


----------



## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

The engine compartment is all put together and it is time to make the rest of the car pretty. Everything needs to come off, so I started with the glass. Windshield, quarter panel glass and hatch glass are out, and the doors are off and ripped apart, so the door glasses are out.










There is still a whole lot of work to be done, so stay tuned...


----------



## Mark C (Jun 25, 2010)

The quality is awe inspiring. You are going to have a brand new, OEM looking Metro. I can visualize folks looking at a build like this at a local cruise night and asking if it came from the factory this way. I like it, a lot!  

If you plan to occasionally show the car publicly, you might make a spoofed new car brochure as if it came new this way. Sort of a "what-if" idea that would make some folks do a good bit of head scratching.


----------



## tomofreno (Mar 3, 2009)

You sure have a lot of energy! The Curtis manual says to not route cables over the center of the controller, so that one battery cable might be an issue.


----------



## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

Speaking of those cables... I can't find any pretty lugs for these cables in 0/2. The pretty car audio cables only seem to go up to 0. Anybody know where I can find some pimp lugs and/or 0/2 cable? It does not take much to redo the controller cables if I can find something show worthy.


----------



## JoeG (Jul 18, 2010)

Great looking restoration. I'm getting ready to start cleaning up the exterior of my 91 metro hatchback and you are an inspiration with your clean build. Where do you get your replacement widow seals and trim parts? Mine are in poor condition. Any leads or tips would be appreciated.
As for good looking lugs, aren't they going to be covered with boots for safety?


----------



## onegreenev (May 18, 2012)

evmetro said:


> Speaking of those cables... I can't find any pretty lugs for these cables in 0/2. The pretty car audio cables only seem to go up to 0. Anybody know where I can find some pimp lugs and/or 0/2 cable? It does not take much to redo the controller cables if I can find something show worthy.


You lookin for this type of pretty boy? If so and you use a manual crimping tool you will need to lubricate the lug well. If you don't it will tear. Also be sure you crimp them well. I had found a cable that another person crimped and the cable just fell out under hand pressure. Be sure you have a very very tight secure crimp.


----------



## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

Joeg, I am not sure where you get those seals, but rock auto has a lot of metro parts. You may be able to make something custom with universal seals that your local auto glass supplier has.

Greenev, I was hoping to find some chrome oror billit machined lugs with set screw retention, but they may not make the same quality connection as crimped ones. I guess I will just stick the boots on these for now.


----------



## onegreenev (May 18, 2012)

evmetro said:


> Joeg, I am not sure where you get those seals, but rock auto has a lot of metro parts. You may be able to make something custom with universal seals that your local auto glass supplier has.
> 
> Greenev, I was hoping to find some chrome oror billit machined lugs with set screw retention, but they may not make the same quality connection as crimped ones. I guess I will just stick the boots on these for now.


What about trying this. Crimp this to the end of your cable real tight then cut the length to what you have then slip this end into a custom lug and use a large heavy set screw to hold it in place. Have the hole custom drilled for a very tight fit before inserting it into the end. Make sure the hole is deep enough to cover the crimp end so it looks clean. Might provide a solid connection that way.


----------



## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

I got all the dings filled, ready for primer.










Here is the primer.










I will block this out before putting down any color.


----------



## onegreenev (May 18, 2012)

Nice job. Hey what did you come up with for your custom lug setup?


----------



## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

GreenEV, I have the lugs on the back burner for now. I will probably do it at some point, but for now I am just trying to get her all back together.


----------



## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

Finally got the chassis painted.


----------



## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

_I started making the mold for the front bumper. The pic below shows gel coat applied to the waxed surface and up onto a clay barrier to form a flange. This will be a two piece mold, bolted together via flanges. 










The next pic is the backside of the flange on the first half of the mold. I will pull the clay out and do the bondo, sanding and primer thing to this surface to create a nice surface for the second half of the mold to mate up to.










Here is the fiberglass layup. I will need to trim the edges to get this mold to come off of my bumper.









_


----------



## tomofreno (Mar 3, 2009)

Planning on going into production?


----------



## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

tomofreno said:


> Planning on going into production?


What gives you that idea? 










I'll let you know when I am able to produce a clean copy of that bumper. I still need to test it on the freeway so that I can see if it is as functional as I think it is going to be, and to document watts per mile for various speeds. I don't know if anybody will buy one of these from me just to keep their engine bay sealed up and clean & dry, but I have a hunch that I can sell one or two if it truly makes the car more aerodynamic and use less electricity.


----------



## tomofreno (Mar 3, 2009)

Your car is going to look too good. Makes it a target for car theft.


----------



## johnjcbs (Oct 10, 2012)

Anything new?


----------



## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

I am still working on her everyday, but the stuff I am doing is not all that exciting.. The doors, hood, hatch and fenders were absolutely loaded with dings and dents. Nothing major, just an extreme number of them. 15 years of dings on a coke can take awhile to fix. Below are the doors, and I ended up just skimming the entire doors with filler and then re sculpting them completely.










The fenders were not too bad, but you can see they got their share of filler as well. You can see on the doors and fenders that the filler is blocked down so that it is paper thin and you can see much of the original surface below.










The hood and hatch are done now as well, with the hood getting about 30% of the surface blessed with filler, and the hatch got away with no filler! Now I just need to prime and re block everything to see if it is ready for paint.


----------



## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

The rear bumper cover was unpainted plastic and quite beat up, so I primed it so that I can fill the scrapes and have the filler stick to the primer. This is the back up camera. I thought about mounting it above the license plate, but that is where people bump into the car in parking lots.










Here it is installed flush. I wanted to make the hole before paint so that I do not risk tearing up a new paint job when I am assembling the car.










Yea, that primer is black. After I get all the nicks and chips filled, I will use grey primer so that the blue matches the rest of the car.


----------



## marc02228 (Jan 15, 2011)

Wow, really great work... in every detail.


----------



## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

Thanks marc. It is amazing how much time a project like this can consume.


----------



## dtbaker (Jan 5, 2008)

wow....
The prettiest Swift/Metro on the planet. 

I've only got 150hours into mine, but a new coat of paint would go a long way.....


----------



## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

Thanks dtb. I have been working on the instrument cluster, converting it to tablet. Below is a pic of the inner structure where you can see a ciggy lighter, which is where you plug in the tablet. The Torque app allows me to have the tablet come on and off with my key by making the ciggy lighter power up with the key. That plug is in a recessed pocket where the 12 volt cord can get bundled up out of sight while driving. The little holes that are drilled into the backdrop hold LEDs that I got for the idiot lights; Park brake, left turn, right turn, lights on, and high beam. The high beam blue led was way too bright, so I drilled the hole for that into the pocket so that when the high beams are on, there will be a blue glow all around the tablet.










The next pic has the tablet snapped firmly into place. some of you may recognize that spring that retains the top of the tablet because I made it with my home made bus bar jig... You can see that there is about an inch between the idiot light panel and the tablet, and this is so you can reach up there and grab you tablet and take it out.










The next pic is with the bezel in place. Still need to close up the top and do the pretty black paint thing, but you can get the basic idea of what I am doing.


----------



## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

I decided to transfer the original odometer over to the new instrument cluster.


----------



## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

I have it all closed in now, and some primer and black put down. Starting to look like an instrument panel now...


----------



## Ivansgarage (Sep 3, 2011)

Are we going to zero out that odometer since that was for the ice..


----------



## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

It is tempting to zero out for its new life, but also a novelty to show the real miles on a fresh ride like this. I will start a fresh odometer on the tablet to keep track of its life as an ev. After using the ICE version of "Torque" in one of my ICE metros for awhile, I have to wonder why more people don't switch to a tablet instead of the oem instrument cluster.


----------



## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

Got the glass all cleaned up and brought them to the tint shop today. Should have them back by Friday afternoon.











Also got some panels into the booth this evening. They will turn blue first thing in the morning.


----------



## Mark C (Jun 25, 2010)

I am constantly amazed at the attention to detail you're putting into your conversion. It will be the newest car out there that has already served almost 280k miles!


----------



## tomofreno (Mar 3, 2009)

So when can I drop off my Swift for a similar body rework?


----------



## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

Tomo, you can bring it by the shop anytime. There are not many conversion shops out there, and even fewer that do body and paint, and even fewer that have a metro/swift specialty...

Here is some color for those of you waiting for some more.



















the insides came out nice too..


----------



## onegreenev (May 18, 2012)

Very nice work. Looks great. Will look better when assembled.


----------



## favguy (May 2, 2008)

looking very nice 

Out of interest, what type of paint do you use over there?


----------



## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

Favguy, this is all waterborn. The solvent based is being replaced with this.


----------



## onegreenev (May 18, 2012)

evmetro said:


> Favguy, this is all waterborn. The solvent based is being replaced with this.


Thats even better. I assume it is pretty durable. How does it hold up to UV?


----------



## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

The waterborn is not really as nice as solvent, and it was designed more for the environment. Less voc when it is sprayed. You can still get good uv protection, you just have to pay more for the better clear. The clear on this is the good stuff, and the clear under the hood is the cheaper stuff. I don't get much sun under the hood, and it does not need to be as pretty.

I wish that my headlights had better protection. Took awhile to polish them up.. here is a pic of one before polish, and one after










The tail lights polish out really nice..










I went ahead and put down some new headliner fabric since it is almost time to put it back in. It had lots of wear and tear, plus there were a few marks from the rooster tails of sparks when I was fabbing the inside


----------



## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

Still building... Here is the hatch and doors in place, and the back three windows tinted and installed.










I got a new windshield and got the top tinted










The wiring taking forever... There were no circuits in place for the power locks and so I had to build these circuits. My new alarm has all the basics there, but all the functions are less than 200ma output and this car was not equipped with anything. Had to add six relays to get all the bells and whistles to work right. 30 second dome light function, power locks, factory horn, power trunk release, etc. There are still other functions available, but I can't think of what to use them for. I guess I could have a keyfob charge enable...


----------



## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

Got the fenders on, and the 110 plug wired into the fender. Doors are built up. The wheels are getting uglier as the car gets closer...


----------



## tomofreno (Mar 3, 2009)

I think you will be the only person I've seen on here who did such an extensive rework and actually stuck with it to get it all back together and running. Tremendous amount of work.


----------



## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

The only paint work left is the bumpers. There are still a lot of loose ends on the inside, plus the splash shields and underlay.


----------



## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

The hoods on these come with two holes for the hood emblems that have two pins on the back so that you can properly locate the correct position to install the emblem. I personally don't care for emblems and door moldings, so I welded up the holes for the hood emblem and then smoothed them out with body filler. I don't think that getting rid of the emblem will reduce my watts per mile, it is just more pleasing to my eyes.


----------



## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

The two five packs of cells that go under the seats. I trimmed the carpet so that in hangs over into the battery wells, and then the packs "pressed" down in. Nice and tight. When the seats went in, there was about one centimeter between the tops of these packs and the bottoms of the seats. All seat functions were retained.










At last, the bumpers are painted. They are drying here in the sun a little, and I will bolt them up tomorrow.


----------



## Mark C (Jun 25, 2010)

Since some of the batteries are under the seats, are you at all concerned about battery temperature during charging or high discharge rates? I'm not trying to be critical of the great work you're doing, but I am curious. It looks like the carpet provides some insulation value and I like the fact that they are using space that has no other real value.

And the finish on the entire car is looking far better than a Metro ever did when new. I continue to watch with interest.


----------



## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

Not too worried about the temp. I drove this thing around for awhile and did not experience much heat in the cells. I ran it up to 100 mph and reached down and felt them with my hand about 2 minutes later when I exited the freeway and they seemed to be ambient temp. 21kwh is a pretty good sized pack for this little car so it is not working super hard. I guess I will have more to report on this very soon...


----------



## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

Bumpers are on now




























Fuel door is on too... Here is my fifty amp connection.










Backup camera


----------



## dougingraham (Jul 26, 2011)

evmetro said:


> Not too worried about the temp. I drove this thing around for awhile and did not experience much heat in the cells. I ran it up to 100 mph and reached down and felt them with my hand about 2 minutes later when I exited the freeway and they seemed to be ambient temp. 21kwh is a pretty good sized pack for this little car so it is not working super hard. I guess I will have more to report on this very soon...


I have the 100AH GBS cells and I pull 1000 amps from them and I can't get them more than about 10-15 degrees above ambient. And they seem to like being warm. I have them in insulated boxes. I doubt you will get them too hot even if you hold full current until the pack is depleted.

I really like your under seat packs from a space utilization standpoint. I worry a bit about having pack voltage in the passenger compartment. I think you can get away with it because of the covers on the GBS batteries.

You may have one of the fastest Metros on the planet! Pretty sure a stock one would have trouble getting to 100mph.


----------



## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

Those underseat battery wells were the only way to keep the back seats and hatch back area in tact, but they also keep the weight down low and very evenly distributed. It worked out very well custom banding them into the two five cell packs since I had two individual cells that were not banded together. 34 cells did not divide into an equal number of four packs.


----------



## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

Here is a shot of the instrumentation so far.










The rear view mirror has a screen on it for the rear view camera, and a second input for whatever else. You can see the tablet instrument cluster lit up as well. It's pretty cool that the Torque app allows the screen to come on with the key and go off when the key goes off.

This next pic is has the torque running, but it is the ICE version that I have been running in my ICE metro. Torque is remarkable in ICE vehicles as well.


----------



## hmincr (Jan 20, 2012)

Really nice conversion. 2 thumbs up.


----------



## njloof (Nov 21, 2011)

Ooh, where did you find that rear view mirror?


----------



## rbralien (Jul 1, 2008)

OK, my 1995 Firefly that has been sitting with its ICE intact, needs to go on a vacation to your place. Now that you have gone through the process (mostly) are you considering doing conversions for customers? My wife and I just love the paint. And I really like the front bumper.


----------



## rbralien (Jul 1, 2008)

What range and speed are you anticipating out of this build with the AC35 and 200ah GBS cells?





evmetro said:


> Not too worried about the temp. I drove this thing around for awhile and did not experience much heat in the cells. I ran it up to 100 mph and reached down and felt them with my hand about 2 minutes later when I exited the freeway and they seemed to be ambient temp. 21kwh is a pretty good sized pack for this little car so it is not working super hard. I guess I will have more to report on this very soon...


----------



## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

Rbralien, I would be honored to have your Firefly come to my shop for vacation. I have a shop set up specifically for the purpose of converting cars to electric, but is also set up to do anything you want to your car from the most basic conversion to incredibly custom. The first year has been pure research, development, and education in the electric vehicle field, but the actual fabrication and craftsmanship comes from a career as an aircraft mechanic and a career as a collision tech. If you are indeed interested in my services, feel free to pm me.

As for the range of this metro, I have my eyes on the 100 mile unicorn, but am also aware that a metro typically consumes about 200 watts per mile. This car has a 21.6 kwh pack, but only about 16 kwh are available to use. when we divide the the 16 kwh by the 200 watts per mile, we see that 81 miles is closer to reality. I won't make any claims yet but while doing my homework on this, I have come to believe that as much as 35% of the drag of this car comes from air that enters the engine compartment via the openings in the factory bumper openings and the gap between the bumper and the hood. I am almost ready for a road test, so for now I make no claims, but my objective is to bring this cars watts per mile down under 200 and range closer to the 100 miles club. It may be just a nicer looking bumper, but it also might make the car more efficient...


----------



## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

Been working on the underlay. The aluminum subframe that I am building here matches the bottom of the bumper. When I take a 10 foot section of angle iron and hold it up to the bottom of the car as a super long straight edge, it touches all the cross ribs of this frame at the same time, as well as the bottom of the bumper. I have some plastic 4x8 sheets that I will trim to fit the frame.


----------



## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

The aluminum sub frame covers the battery wells and goes all the way to the gas tank. (I guess we could call it the gbs tank)


----------



## tomofreno (Mar 3, 2009)

evmetro said:


> ...As for the range of this metro, I have my eyes on the 100 mile unicorn, but am also aware that a metro typically consumes about 200 watts per mile. This car has a 21.6 kwh pack, but only about 16 kwh are available to use. when we divide the the 16 kwh by the 200 watts per mile, we see that 81 miles is closer to reality. I won't make any claims yet but while doing my homework on this, I have come to believe that as much as 35% of the drag of this car comes from air that enters the engine compartment via the openings in the factory bumper openings and the gap between the bumper and the hood. I am almost ready for a road test, so for now I make no claims, but my objective is to bring this cars watts per mile down under 200 and range closer to the 100 miles club. It may be just a nicer looking bumper, but it also might make the car more efficient...


Last fall I blocked off the openings in the front bumper of my Swift and started keeping the tires inflated to 38 - 40 psi. This spring I have been getting around 170 Wh/mile driving 30 to 40 mph. For example I drove 51.6 miles in that speed range around town over a couple days and used 76.5 Ah or 1.48 Ah/mile, roughly 1.48*115V = 170 Wh/mile (nominal 115V pack, 36 cells). 

In May I drove 71.5 miles mixed conditions and used 1.50Ah/mile or roughly 173Wh/mile.

A trip last week of 60.7 miles, about 2/3 driving 55 - 65 mph and 1/3 through a nearby town at around 30 mph used 1.47 Ah/mile, roughly 169 Wh/mile. I think that is the best energy/mile I've seen on my car on a trip that was mostly highway speeds.

In May I drove 77.3 miles, about 35 miles of it a ski trip up in the mountains, the rest around town and used 1.57 Ah/mile, roughly 181 Wh/mile. Pack was at 32% SOC at the end.

Earlier this week I drove up 4500 ft elevation change into the mountains, 57.6 miles round trip, and used 1.52Ah.mile or roughly 175Wh/mile. So even though there was a 4500 ft elevation gain (but zero elevation change round trip) it used about the same energy/mile overall as any other trip. There are a lot of switchbacks on this trip, so some energy lost in those sharp turns.

With the aero mods you are doing you should be able to do a bit better. Main difference in the two cars will be the belly pan. I haven't partitioned it, but I think the tire inflation is the bigger effect on my car, certainly in town, but the 60 mile trip suggests the aero mod to the front bumper helped quite a bit on the highway. That was mostly straight highway with only several hundred feet elevation change.


----------



## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

Thanks for the info Tomo. This sounds promising. I did some more work on the belly pan today.




























The control arms disappear when there is weight on wheels, so all there is is flatness. I still have much work to do on this, including connecting what you see here to the front bumper, and adapting the oem fender liners to the new lowered bumper and the new belly pan.


----------



## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

I filled and bled the brakes today. Even though they were empty from removing all the lines and complete system, the fluid still came out dirty for awhile. I just kept bleeding them after all the air was gone till the fluid looked new. Also filled the tranny with synchromesh. No leaks! I could not resist putting the new wheels on and lowering it down to the ground so I could see how the new wheels look. The wheels need to come back off for some more work that I need to do, but I needed to see it like this...


----------



## palmer_md (Jul 22, 2011)

Congratulations...you've done a fantastic job with you car. Can't wait to see it on the road in the next few weeks.


----------



## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

Thanks palmer. I guess it has been longer than the month or two that I forecasted back at the ev meet, but you know how things can go with a big build... it's pretty close now though.


----------



## tomofreno (Mar 3, 2009)

Sweet! Looking forward to some data on performance. Does the clearcoat protect from dings from road gravel? My hood looks like the night sky - lots of little white dots all over due to wax in dings. Seems especially bad on a low car like the Swift.


----------



## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

Tomo, you are not kidding about the dings an chips! This one needed an awful lot of rework to get rid of 280, 000 miles of sandblasting. I don't think that the new finish will protect against the same thing from happening, but the clock has been reset. I used to shoot teflon filled polyurethane to the leading edges of aircraft during my military career, but I suspect that that stuff would be out of my budget.


----------



## johnjcbs (Oct 10, 2012)

It really looks fantastic.Do you have any idea what the all up weight is now?


----------



## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

Thanksl I am anxious to weigh in with everything installed and a full cup of coffee in the cup holder. I am optimistic, since I have used aluminum throughout this build, and trimmed as much unneeded stuff out as I could. Even took the wiring harness apart and gutted out the unneeded wiries.


----------



## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

Ok, so it is still hanging out on the lift.










I am piecing together the front shield. I want that front shield to be quickly removable, very sturdy, and of course really flat. The main shield comes off in about two minutes and has been built to my pit stop style standards that I have been using through out this build. At the same time, I am trying to not add a lot of weight as you can tell by all the aluminum that is in the shields. It is all pretty thin stuff, and after I weld the stuff up with the spool gun, I have been grinding the welds pretty flat. I may need to link those strips that I have between the bumper and main shield together with some aluminum strips going across them to hold the bolt hole positions while I rivit the plastic to them. anyway, I will post some pics when I get it dialed in.










I have the fender liners in and made pretty.


----------



## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

Finished up the underlay today. It needed to be in halves to be able to get it in and out. Yea, I know I need some pan head style round head bolts... I overlapped the shield like shingles to be aerodynamic.










Here it is with the other half in, and the rest of the rivets in.











All done with having it in the air until I get my hands on some more aerodynamic bolts. Just need to finish some details inside.


----------



## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

Just found this pic from when I first started this conversion.


----------



## johnjcbs (Oct 10, 2012)

evmetro said:


> Just found this pic from when I first started this conversion.



So basically you kept the license plates,and put everything new in between.


----------



## favguy (May 2, 2008)

Your work continues to impress, an example for us all to emulate I think! 

I'm thinking my conversion is very un-aerodynamic now that I've seen your work on the underbody. 

Can't wait to see the stats. when you get it on the road.


----------



## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

Favguy, you set the bar pretty high for build quality. I have had your build in mind as I built this. I am honored to have you checking out this build.

I turned on the key today, but did not hear the contactor kick in. I guess I may have been a little overconfident when I wired it so I "knew" that there was no need to verify that everything worked right... On the bright side, it will give me a chance to do the pit crew style teardown that I built this car for . When I had everything apart, I wrapped the controller harness into what was left of the oem harness to get that look where it looks like a factory EV. While I was at it, I incorporated some of my EV circuits into the oem relay box, which is what I need to dig into to figure out why I have no 12v key power on the controllers pin 1 high voltage relay coil. It would be pretty simple to provide the missing 12v to the relay coill, but to do it right and keep the oem look, I need to clear stuff out of the way so I can open up the main harness and then re wrap my changes.


----------



## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

I opened it up today and traced what my wiring problem was, and it turned out to be that I plugged a relay into the wrong socket. After I gutted the oem harness, I was left with all blank spots in the relay box except for 2. I wired a step up relay for the discharge enable into the oem fuse box, which then powers the coil on my high voltage relay from the pack to the controller. Anyway, with all the blank spots in the relay box, I had just plugged the relay into the socket beside where it was supposed to go.

I did learn a lesson that some of the engineer types warned me of when I started tracing wires and troubleshooting, and that was finding myself not knowing how I wired things up a few months ago. It did not take me as long as a stranger would take since I did build it, but I went ahead and got out the label maker and started labeling wires as I figured out where they went. Next time it will be easier. I also labeled my switches behind the glove box. These are on off on switches in case I need to override the charger, controller, or brake light options. Nice to be able to substitute a chassis ground for the enable grounds.


----------



## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

Tearing this thing down was a breeze, but one thing that I wished I had done differently was the location of my high voltage relay and the charge enable relay. I doubt that I will need to access them much, but behind the controller was not the best place. I liked the idea of having them close to the components that they control, and I liked having them out of site, but I wish they were easier to access. Most likely, I won't ever need access them, so I will just leave them in that spot.


----------



## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

Took her for a spin today. I still have some interior stuff to assemble, but I want to get the orion talking to my tablet and play around with the profile a little before I seal it up. Also need to mess with the shift linkage a little. Since the tranny is not in the stock location, I had to chop up the linkage and re assemble it to the new length and angle. The test drive sure was a blast after such a long rework!

Here she is out in the sun.


----------



## The Toecutter (May 30, 2010)

Having cleaned up the car as much as you did, I predict that 150 Wh/mile at 60 mph should be within reach as is with your current set of mods, without resorting to hypermiling. This would put you at just over 100 miles range, if you keep only 16 kWh usable. With hypermiling, 130+ miles should be possible.

I am very impressed with this conversion and have been watching it for some time. Most people tend to ignore aerodynamics, when it is the cheapest way to extend range if you do highway driving. Aesthetically, I think it looks a lot better than a stock Metro. I would guess that your Cd is around 0.25 at the moment.

Your next aeromod should be a Kammback extension for the roofline, to add another 10-15% to your highway range:

http://ecomodder.com/forum/showthre...-permanent-metro-kammback-extension-3518.html

A car as light as that Metro, with sufficient aero work and LRR tries, theoretically should see as little as 130 Wh/mile at 60 mph within reach(assuming you get the Cd down to around 0.22), from the roughly 200 Wh/mile a stock Metro with your choice in components, normal tires, and a 0.31 Cd will yield. This would be a 120 mile range in real world driving conditions, for a greatly reduced cost versus a Nissan Leaf. If you were to extend your usable kWh to 17.5 kWh from 16 kWh(which shouldn't hurt anything using the same pack), this would push the usable range closer to 135 miles, or around 180 miles with hypermiling.

As is, it seems you've handily out-done the Solectria Force on efficiency. Please post your testing results when you can!


----------



## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

Toecutter, thanks for checking out my build. I am almost ready for some good road testing, just working out some details and loose ends. I never really stated much on the goals and theme of this build, but theme is important to me when I build a car. My theme that I hoped to implement in this car was to build something that was first cheap to drive and offered freedom from the pump, but also something that anybody can get into and drive the way they want to. Something that looks nice in a subtle kind of way. While I admire the quest for better fuel economy that prius owners seem to have, I have also developed a pet peeve for eco driving. The answer to my goals and pet peeves was to build something that I can drive like an asshole and still get twice what a prius gets for economy. I don't believe we need an airplane fuselage on three bicycle tires to get this. I wanted something that still looks nice but also got along well with the laws of physics, so I added some touches of style to a vehicle that was already known as the mpg king. 
I hope people in the hypermilling world never lose their passion to make their improvements, and I absolutely love the diy spirit and real results that they achieve. At this point in time, I don't think that the kam back and wheel opening skirts will be happening on this car, since they start heading towards the 3 wheeled fuselage direction, but I plan to convert many more vehicles. If I take that direction and theme for a future build, you can bet that there will be a lot of custom body work and carbon fiber. Looks like there is a good strong community of ideas over there at ecomodder..


----------



## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

Still struggling to get the display gauges to read the correct numbers. The high and low cells values are correct, but the decimals are in the wrong spot. When I modify the equation, I can get the decimal in the right spot, but I can only get one position after the decimal. Amps gauge needs help too. I think I may need a different equation for the 750 amp hall effect sensor that my orion is equipped with. I can't find any builds out there with an orion and tablet combo running the torque app, so I think I am on my own here.


----------



## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

The road testing is a blast, but road testing is for finding out what works and what does not. A stock clutch for a metro does not. It is possible to be nice to this one and it may last as long as any other, but if you are not nice it is easy to roast this clutch in any gear anytime. I am going to research what vehicle has an appropriate sized clutch and adapt it for my needs. Tomofreno, are you having problems with your clutch holding the increased torque on yours, or are you babying it?


----------



## dtbaker (Jan 5, 2008)

evmetro said:


> ... if you are not nice it is easy to roast this clutch in any gear anytime. I am going to research what vehicle has an appropriate sized clutch and adapt it for my needs.



I have not had any trouble w mine, but it is limited to using a curtis 1221c thru a ADC8". max is about 30kw.... PROBABLY right about the same as stock torque.

I am considering upgrade to Soliton Jr. though, so wondering how many amps I can push before slipping.....


----------



## dtbaker (Jan 5, 2008)

The Toecutter said:


> Most people tend to ignore aerodynamics, when it is the cheapest way to extend range if you do highway driving.



thats the rub.... for MOST people, the EVs are a better fit for urban/suburban where stops/starts and weight are more important as aero doesn't really kick in until 35+mph.

I have found that the time/expense of aero mods would mostly be wasted for me. I put a partial belly on, more as a debris/water/snow shield for motor.... but never seem to get around to the rest of the belly or tail since it seems a poor return on my time.


----------



## tomofreno (Mar 3, 2009)

evmetro said:


> Tomofreno, are you having problems with your clutch holding the increased torque on yours, or are you babying it?


 No problems. Drive it the same as I've driven all my other cars, all of which have been stick shift. I suspect what you call "babying it" other people call "driving".


----------



## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

Dt, the other concern that we have is the tiny 3/4" transmission shaft. It may be that we want the clutch to slip, just not as much as the stock one.


----------



## dougingraham (Jul 26, 2011)

evmetro said:


> Dt, the other concern that we have is the tiny 3/4" transmission shaft. It may be that we want the clutch to slip, just not as much as the stock one.


I was somewhat concerned about the clutch on my Rx7 because I was replacing a motor that had 104 ft-lb with one that had 277 ft-lb. Seemed like there would be a potential for problems. But it has not turned out to be an issue at all. I didn't even replace the clutch, but just used the worn one (~35000 miles). My plan was to put in a heavier duty clutch if I had problems with slipping. I have since changed that plan. I will just turn down the motor amps if that ever becomes an issue. Clutch wear should be almost nothing because with an EV you don't normally ever slip the clutch which is where all the wear happens. I do recognize that I am comparing the clutch found in an 80's sports car with one in an economy car so there are some differences.

Is it possible your clutch is contaminated, perhaps a weeping seal on the transmission or from a leaking main seal on the ICE before you swapped it out?


----------



## dtbaker (Jan 5, 2008)

evmetro said:


> Thanksl I am anxious to weigh in with everything installed and a full cup of coffee in the cup holder. I am optimistic, since I have used aluminum throughout this build, and trimmed as much unneeded stuff out as I could. Even took the wiring harness apart and gutted out the unneeded wiries.



I'll be very curious as to how it weighs in against my first EV.... that has steel edged battery racks, truncated wiring harness rather than cleaned out, left fuel lines in etc.

I weighed it when getting registered at 2020#. Thats with 38 x 100ah cells


----------



## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

Dougingraham, I wish I could fit your clutch into my ride. I would have no problem coming up with the correct flywheel and hub combo, but I have found that the 3/4" 18 tooth input shaft is unique to metros and swifts. It looks like there is a step up to the 4 cyl flywheel, but from there I will need to look at a performance clutch. I think the ICE torque was in the low 50's on this, and the setup in there now is double that.


----------



## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

Considering doing a motor swap on this. I have another metro build going on that is in need of an hpevs motor and controller, so I was thinking to move the one from this metro over to that one, and trying out an ac 75. I am going to be in there anyhow to upgrade the clutch, and the ac 75 is an easy bolt on for this car. I can have the motor and controller out in an hour. The lucky thing about doing a swap like this is that I have a very deep adapter plate that is empty, so if I were to put a regular depth motor adapter plate in, there would be enough room for the extra length of the ac 75. I already have new short clutch hubs made up for future builds. Any thoughts? (good or bad)


----------



## tomofreno (Mar 3, 2009)

evmetro said:


> I think the ICE torque was in the low 50's on this, and the setup in there now is double that.


 My 2001 Swift had peak torque of 75 ft-lb at 3k rpm with the original ice.


----------



## tomofreno (Mar 3, 2009)

evmetro said:


> Considering doing a motor swap on this. I have another metro build going on that is in need of an hpevs motor and controller, so I was thinking to move the one from this metro over to that one, and trying out an ac 75. I am going to be in there anyhow to upgrade the clutch, and the ac 75 is an easy bolt on for this car. I can have the motor and controller out in an hour. The lucky thing about doing a swap like this is that I have a very deep adapter plate that is empty, so if I were to put a regular depth motor adapter plate in, there would be enough room for the extra length of the ac 75. I already have new short clutch hubs made up for future builds. Any thoughts? (good or bad)


 So are you going to swap out the transmission and clutch too? Peak torque of the AC75 is well beyond the original ice.


----------



## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

I found a performance clutch for a swift turbo, and a flywheel from a 4 cyl. Since the ac 75 is more low end torque, I will transfer this 4.39 tranny to my other EV metro build and bring the 3.79 tranny from that one over to this one.


----------



## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

I modified the change tray to hold the Curtis display.


----------



## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

Just took her for a 40 mile drive out into the foothills for a visit with my family, and then 40 miles back. It was a very smooth and quiet ride with no major problems. It seems like 70mph is a very comfortable cruising speed on the freeway. A few minor problems that I noticed were an over voltage trigger while regenning down a long 7% grade, and a little bit of surging/jerking during take off from a stop. I filled one of the motor mounts with urethane during the build because it was torn, so maybe I will fill the other two as well. Filling them makes them much stiffer than the standard rubber, so this may smooth the take offs a little..


----------



## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

I picked up one of these computer fans today that runs on 12v dc.










I am going to attach it to this. The controller is staying really cool, even on a 10 mile stretch of 80 mph, but I have been needing to keep the charger turned down to under 15 amps to keep the heat down.


----------



## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

I rigged the fan up with some zip ties to see how it works out. The fan does not move a whole lot of air, but it seems to be making the difference that I was looking for. I can't even here it, but I can feel hot air on the other side of the heater core (it's radiator now).


----------



## dougingraham (Jul 26, 2011)

evmetro said:


> Dougingraham, I wish I could fit your clutch into my ride. I would have no problem coming up with the correct flywheel and hub combo, but I have found that the 3/4" 18 tooth input shaft is unique to metros and swifts. It looks like there is a step up to the 4 cyl flywheel, but from there I will need to look at a performance clutch. I think the ICE torque was in the low 50's on this, and the setup in there now is double that.


In that case just turn down your motor current limit until it no longer slips. This will at least let you continue to operate without wearing out the clutch until you can get it replaced with a heavier duty one.


----------



## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

The clutches are in. Still waiting for the ac 74 kit and a bigger flywheel. The ac74 is still getting built, but should not be long. I am going to stuff one of these clutches into this drivetrain before I drop it into the other build, and the other clutch will go into the new ac74 drivetrain that will have a 4:10 tranny instead of the 4.39 that I have been running in here.


----------



## onegreenev (May 18, 2012)

Metro,

What was the criteria that you used to pick the AC-74 vs the AC-75 and what voltage are you going to use? 

Pete


----------



## onegreenev (May 18, 2012)

What level of performance are those pressure plates your going to use?


----------



## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

I am keeping the car in tact other than the motor and controller, so I will still be using the 34 gbs cells that are in there. From talking with hpevs, the 74 will give me a little more rpm of torque range, and a little more torque. The 75 would give me even more torque, but the torque would fall off at a lower rpm. This swap really works out, because I already have a 36 cell pack ready for the build that this ac35/7601 setup is going into. I can even leave my chill plate on the 7601 that is coming out of this one. I have ten chill plates in work at a machine shop in my area, so I can try my new chill plate design on the new 7601.


----------



## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

onegreenev said:


> What level of performance are those pressure plates your going to use?


 I got these at

http://www.pt2w.com/srd/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=6&products_id=40

They advertise "280 +whp"


----------



## onegreenev (May 18, 2012)

Excellent pressure plate. Should hold well. So if the design for the chill plate works out what are you going to sell them for? 

Pete


----------



## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

Unfortuately, the cost of the aluminum does not leave much room to get rich, but it looks like I will be able to get them out around 150 bucks and still keep a few bucks. There would be more room with a higher quantity run. I have no doubt that they will do a fine job keeping the controller cool. I also have a batch of pretty cool motor to tranny plates being cut right now, and I already have a batch of clutch hubs that will match the motor adapters that are being milled right now.


----------



## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

I spent some time cutting the new paint with 1500 grit, then 2000 grit paper to get the surface nice and flat like glass. Followed it up with HOURS of machine polishing... I am going to take it to a car show really soon. Note: My belly is not really as big as it looks in that reflection. The hood curves right there...


----------



## hmincr (Jan 20, 2012)

I was wondering about the paint job, earlier in the thread. Decided to keep quiet and see if anything changed. 

VERY NICE conversion.


----------



## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

I took her to a local car show today. My ride was not an entry, but rather a vendor table. I stopped into Harbor Freight this morning and picked up that pop up tent, and I set up a table with pics, brochures, and business cards. This thing is car show ready, but this particular event would not have been the right place. Something about a Metro parked between two tubbed hotrods with blowers sticking out of their hoods... Any way, My spot was premium, and I talked to people all day, till my voice got crackly. I saw at least 100 people taking pics.


----------



## palmer_md (Jul 22, 2011)

nice! wish I would have known about it. I'd have stopped by to say hello and check out the finished product.


----------



## DPWood (Mar 7, 2013)

Great thread. A little difficult to read through on my phone but seeing the pics and attention to detail that you put into this build made it worth the time. I'm curious if you tested the actual ah capacity of the GBS cells. I am looking at a HPEV motor/controller and GBS 200 ah cells as the pack for my ev conversion but very few people seem to have them installed. Has your experience shown them to deliver more than the 200 ah they are rated at.

You probably can't help with the other point I was really interested in since it has to do with cold weather performance and you aren't likely to see the temp variation I live with in Canada. GBS literature mentions much better cold weather performance. 

Looking forward to seeing updates on your metro projects.

David


----------



## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

Dpwood, I have not pushed these cells too much yet. I am still learning about them as well as my bms. As for cold weather performance, you are right about the CA climate... I have little cold weather experience.


----------



## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

Here is the AC74. I guess I was a little shocked at how much bigger this thing is compared to the AC 35 that I have been running.










You can see the size of it sitting next to the siamese 35s.


----------



## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

The Ac35 weighs 85 lbs. This Ac74 weighs 180 lbs. I have a hunch that there will be a noticeable difference in performance, but I may need to address the coil springs...


----------



## onegreenev (May 18, 2012)

Metro,

I see you could not resist opening your boxes  Nice motors. I will be measuring my motor space in the morning.

Pete


----------



## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

Yea, I put the pallet in the back of my pickup because I knew that I would need to check them out for at least an hour... I will pull the ac35 tomorrow, and it looks like I need to add an aditional bolt pattern to the motor adaper plate. The pdf showed a four bolt pattern, and this one is eight bolts. This bolt pattern is 7.75 inches diameter, and the 35 pattern is around 9 inches. My adapter plates are pretty thick through there, so I think they can support the additional holes.


----------



## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

Here is a side by side pic of the AC35 and AC74. I got the racing clutch and bigger flywheel onto the AC35 so that I can stick it into my other metro. This new motor is a tight squeeze in a metro. There will only be about 1/2 inch between either frame rail and the motor/transmission. From what I can tell, this is as big as you can go on a metro with a transverse setup.


----------



## onegreenev (May 18, 2012)

Thats a huge difference in motors. But you know, that little motor can dish out quite a wallop for such a small package.


----------



## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

It has been my experience that that little guy is more than enough for a metro, and probably the wisest choice for a balance between performance, economy, and budget. This new AC 74 is overkill, but it will probably be really fun. I can't imagine trying to get this kind of performance out of an ICE in a metro. Anyway, that little 35 will go into the other lighter metro where it will match the lightweight theme of that build.


----------



## tomofreno (Mar 3, 2009)

It will be interesting to see how you relocate the motor/transmission mounts to move the transmission over further to the drivers side. Randy at Canev used to lower the mounts in his conversions of metros by, iirc, around 1 1/2" so he could mount 100Ah cells in a large box across the engine compartment. How much does the motor clear the half shafts? I remember thinking 9" would be about as big as you could go in diameter.


----------



## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

I fabricated motor mounts that move the drivetrain 4.5" over towards the driver side when I did the original conversion to accommodate the oversized motor to tranny adapter. The Ac35 and my original huge adapter are about the same length as the Ac74 and my new thinner adapters, so my work is almost done. As for the diameter, I can assure you that there is NO room left over between the RH cv axle and the motor.


----------



## tomofreno (Mar 3, 2009)

Have you been able to look at energy per mile on your metro with the aero mods? I notice you didn't take the belly pan all the way back to the rear bumper. Is that because you have to neck it down to about 18" width between the rear suspension? I've read that the inside of the rear bumper catches a lot of air, but with the necking it seems the pan wouldn't have that much effect. I picked up some campaign signs last election and am looking at adding a pan, but not sure it is worth it due to compromises to get around the suspension. If your energy per mile is not much better than mine at similar speed and tire pressure I think I'll skip the pan.


----------



## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

Tom, I don't know if the pan does as much as the bumper. There is a huge difference at freeway speeds. If you enjoy cruising faster than 80 mph, this is the way to go.

Got some work done today on this one. The pic below shows the new motor mount in fabrication stage, just tacked up. Polyurethane bushed dom sleeves. I did not want to scratch up the pretty blue paint, so all the fab work is being done in this other metro, and then the final product will just bolt in on this rig.










Next pic shows the clearance to the driver side frame rail.


----------



## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

Tom, here is a shot of the cv axle clearance to the motor. I talked to HPEVS and they confirmed that it would be safe to modify the motor end plate as long as it was not done on top of one of the long bolts that holds the motor end plates together. You can see that the cv boot crimp just barely clears after my modification. Not quite 1 mm of clearance. I am a little embarrassed about those nicks on the edge of the end plate above my cut out.


----------



## dtbaker (Jan 5, 2008)

tomofreno said:


> It will be interesting to see how you relocate the motor/transmission mounts to move the transmission over further to the drivers side. Randy at Canev used to lower the mounts in his conversions of metros by, iirc, around 1 1/2" so he could mount 100Ah cells in a large box across the engine compartment. How much does the motor clear the half shafts? I remember thinking 9" would be about as big as you could go in diameter.



wow, moving motor mounts was something I wanted to avoid at all cost.... stuck to the ADC8" which clears nicely and requires NO mount moving. More power to ya though! In my Swift, I had to chop out the front cross support, fabricate a plain steel U beam, and you can JUST fit a row of 100ah cells between the headlights with none over the motor. I put all my 'stuff' on a platform above the tranny, and the charger above the motor.


----------



## Nathan219 (May 18, 2010)

We have had to make our metro transmission a single speed with gears like coke cans we also had a closed differential made with twice the spider gears it seams to handel 130 kw now, what are we going to break next? The gear on the end under the black sheet metal cover is reverse or 5th if you remove it you get anther 1.5 inches or so.


----------



## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

Nathan219, do you have any links to your ride? I would love to check it out...


----------



## tomofreno (Mar 3, 2009)

evmetro said:


> Tom, here is a shot of the cv axle clearance to the motor. I talked to HPEVS and they confirmed that it would be safe to modify the motor end plate as long as it was not done on top of one of the long bolts that holds the motor end plates together. You can see that the cv boot crimp just barely clears after my modification. Not quite 1 mm of clearance. I am a little embarrassed about those nicks on the edge of the end plate above my cut out.


 Mighty close! Surprised you didn't re-crimp the boot with crimp at a different location. Minor thing compared to all the other stuff you've done. Looks good.


----------



## onegreenev (May 18, 2012)

Wouldn't matter. That crimp turns with the CV joint so needs to clear anyway. Looks great.


----------



## Nathan219 (May 18, 2010)

Ask and you shal receive 
Www.illuminatimotorworks.com


----------



## tomofreno (Mar 3, 2009)

onegreenev said:


> Wouldn't matter. That crimp turns with the CV joint so needs to clear anyway. Looks great.


Duh, yeah. For some reason I was thinking of the housing on the shaft that goes from the transmission to the passenger side CV. Was a good backpack trip this weekend, brain still in neutral.


----------



## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

Here is how it looks inside the motor compartment. I am still building the mount for the end of the motor to the passenger frame rail. You can see how much room I was able to gain by using the thinner motor adapter.










Here is how the AC 35 looked:


----------



## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

This is the rear mount. There are actually four bolts that hold it to the firewall. You can see three in this pic, but there is a fourth overlapping the steering gearbox, and using the steering gearbox mount bolt. The factory mount only uses two bolts, but this thing is offset by several inches so I need more support. We all know that the drive train is only as good as the weakest link, and I want to make sure that the weakest link is not any of the motor mounts. I would rather break an input shaft or axle than have the motor and tranny turn into a blender under the hood. The motor mounts just cannot be the weakest link...

That transmission is fresh out of my '93 and has not been cleaned up yet, but it will look much prettier for final installation. Those motor mounts are in the rough right now as well. I am debating silver, black, or the blue that the car is painted in.


----------



## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

Here is a good look at the passenger side motor mount:










Bottom view, painted, installed










Top view, painted, installed:


----------



## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

Here is the rear mount, painted and installed, top view:










Here is the bottom view. You can see where a fourth bolt holds the mount on top of the steering rack and overlapping it to share the bolt.


----------



## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

Oh yes, the driver side:

Top view:










and the bottom view:


----------



## onegreenev (May 18, 2012)

Those look great. Have you had a chance to run the car with the new motor.


----------



## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

Almost ready for a test drive. I still need to update the new controller before it rolls. There was a minor blooper in the software, but I was made aware of it. The problem was resolved in the software, I just need to update the controller with the updated software.


----------



## Randen (Apr 23, 2012)

Nice clean work!!! It makes me wonder if we can do this in our little shops, what's wrong with the big three and their wining about loosing market share.

I'm on the edge of my seat to hear about the final driving.

Randen

Working on reviving GM S-10 EV.


----------



## dtbaker (Jan 5, 2008)

wow, without a doubt this is the cleanest Metro build ever. coolest motor mounts, and gets an award for best creative welding. 

I chose the quick and easy ADC8" motor, which required only a simple flat plate to tie in the CV bearing support to tranny and a face-mount bracket from motor running to the original upper motor mount.

I broke my first one as it was under-designed, so I was happy to see the lovely gussets you've welded in everywhere on yours....


----------



## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

I was able to power up the AC74 today. I ran into some problems with the throttle and ended up having to swap out my PB5 2 wire that I was using with the AC35 with a PB8. That of course meant that I had to unwrap a bunch of harness so that I could dig out the black pot high wire and the green peddle interlock wire that were not used with the AC35 as well, so that I could wire the micro switch on the PB8. In case anybody ever buys a chinese PB8, be aware that the wires may not come in black, red, and white. If you get one like mine you will get brown, black and blue. In case anybody ever is searching for the answer to what wire is what, brown is pot high, blue is wiper, and black is pot low. Anyway, I got the thing to run with the help of the amazing tech support at HPEVS and they walked me through the programmer in minutes. The down side of the day is that there was a noise coming from inside the bell housing, so I will need to pull the motor tomorrow and see what that was. It sounds like the pressure plate is barely touching something, almost like when you put a card in the spokes of a bicycle wheel. All of my clearances were super close, so maybe once everything was torqued down one of them came too close. Either way, I will pull the motor tomorrow and see what is going on.


----------



## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

I pulled the motor out today to see what the sound was. Since I am getting too old to pick up heavy things, I slapped together a jig for my transmission jack to make it a little easier.










The backside of the pressure plate was lightly touching the little nub on the inside of the bell housing.










I buzzed it down with a roloc disc. so it looks like this now.










This quieted the noise, so I took it for a spin... and the noise came back again. Shit. It is quiet when I rev it in nuetral, but when I load it up with some torque, it expands the pressure plate enough to make it touch. I guess I will need to pull the motor again. At least it only takes a half hour to pull the motor now. The motor cradle that I made for this is still bolted to the transmission jack. Anyway, in case anybody is curious, I did romp on it a little in second gear just to satisfy my curiosity, and yes, it gets with the program pretty quick.


----------



## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

I got the noise fixed and took her out for a little spin around the block. That kind of torque is pretty ridiculous. The regen slows it down pretty quick too. The driving feel is much different now as well, with the poly bushings in the motor mounts. There was an unmistakable feel that I was driving something that is pretty heavy duty, and that nothing is going to stop this thing from moving forward other than me letting up on the pedal. One thing that was really nice about the new motor mount system was that the shifter stick did not move back and forth when I accelerated or regen. The old drive train rocked back and forth quite a bit in the rubber mounts. The new setup does not allow it to rock at all. I need to button it up with the bumper and headlights and such, maybe give her a bath, and then I can take it out for a nice long run and really get to know it.


----------



## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

I just found this cool button on the Torque app for screen shot. It works like a shutter on a camera. That round button is the only shape I can have, unlike all the other gauges. I wish I could make it blend in a little better, but either way it is a pretty cool feature.


----------



## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

I am considering installing a momentary micro push button switch to my shifter knob to handle all of the regen, and disabling the off throttle regen.


----------



## rwaudio (May 22, 2008)

evmetro said:


> I am considering installing a momentary micro push button switch to my shifter knob to handle all of the regen, and disabling the off throttle regen.


I'm curious to see how this works. I'm planning to have no regen tied to the throttle to make coasting and shifting possible, however I think an amount slightly greater than normal engine braking would be nice on the throttle for everyday driving. 

Do you have a clutch? A microswitch on the clutch pedal could also be used to disable regen while shifting.

I don't have a clutch, so I'd be looking at the microswitch on the shift knob approach too.


----------



## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

I do have a clutch equipped with a switch. I am plotting a toggle selector for clutch, off, or the manual button on the shifter. Maybe add a potentiometer knob as well. I think the problems associated with regen are because we do not have enough control over it. Big rigs have much more control over the engine brake (jake brake), and I think this is what we will need to do with regen to make the most of it.


----------



## palmer_md (Jul 22, 2011)

I think using the clutch switch to disable regen is a must, and then a second switch on the shifter is nice to have so you can press it and then just coast if you are on a long downhill section and don't want to keep you foot on the throttle in the neutral zone. 

Adding a pot to adjust the maximum off throttle regen is nice, but not totally needed. It would definitely be something to install so you can test the car and find the setting you like. I suspect once you find it, it wont be changed, and could likely be removed.


----------



## njloof (Nov 21, 2011)

Don't you just throw the transmission into neutral to coast?


----------



## dtbaker (Jan 5, 2008)

a guy here in SF set his throttle up with neutral at about 1/3 depressed, but it makes it pretty hard to coast right at 0/0. Another thread somewhere shows installation of a variable regen 'trigger' on the gearshifter.... something like a trigger from a drill. I suppose a variable trigger could be added to the brake pedal to go from 0-full regen over the 'slack' play in the brake pedal movement.

I don't think you want an on/off switch as it would be jerky clicking in much regen all of a sudden.


----------



## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

I wonder if anybody is able to help me out on the state of charge and depth of discharge settings. I have played around with them for awhile, but can't get a firm grasp of how to display how much range I have left. It seems to be related to the cell drift settings. Here is a screen shot in motion... You can see that my SOC and DOD do not add up to 100%. Neither one is really that accurate, and they are displaying data based on the profile that I downloaded into the Orion. The accuracy problem is the guy filling out the data fields, and that would be me.


----------



## tomofreno (Mar 3, 2009)

dtbaker said:


> a guy here in SF set his throttle up with neutral at about 1/3 depressed, but it makes it pretty hard to coast right at 0/0...


 There is no set accelerator position for zero regen. It depends on the speed of the vehicle and the gearing, i.e. at what rpm the rotor is being rotated by the vehicle wheels. The accelerator must be adjusted so the mmf wave from the stator is rotating at the same rpm in order to have zero regen and zero acceleration. This position will obviously depend on the vehicle speed. I find this fairly easy to do myself. Don't know why y'all consider it so difficult.


----------



## cts_casemod (Aug 23, 2012)

dtbaker said:


> a guy here in SF set his throttle up with neutral at about 1/3 depressed, but it makes it pretty hard to coast right at 0/0. Another thread somewhere shows installation of a variable regen 'trigger' on the gearshifter.... something like a trigger from a drill. I suppose a variable trigger could be added to the brake pedal to go from 0-full regen over the 'slack' play in the brake pedal movement.
> 
> I don't think you want an on/off switch as it would be jerky clicking in much regen all of a sudden.


When I designed my controller it was set up to be about 1/3 throttle for zero torque. I control torque, which in turn controls speed, which gives full control (similar to ICE) and allows for adaptive Regeneration. My true zero torque is a fixed position, although I need to hold the throttle at that level, however induction characteristics mean the controller is still pumping power to the motor and hence using a small amount of power, lost mainly as "iron losses".

As for a true zero power, true inertia coast for gear shift or energy saving, I found best to disable the IGBT section, if and only the controller can synchronize output to about +/- 10% of the shaft speed when the clutch pedal is released and a small delay (0.5s or so) before re-enabling output (Avoids inductive demagnetization voltage peaks)

Obviously commercial controllers this may differ, but specs should be present on the documentation or a interface board can added


----------



## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

I have not posted much on this ride lately, but it is still running great. Every time I charge it up, the cells get closer and closer on the volts. They all read 333xx VDC now. I have a feeling that I will never see more than 3 threes for my first 3 digits, but maybe one day... This shot is after about a half hour, but usually by morning a few will slip into the 332xx VDC range.










I have these cells oriented on my dash display to represent where they are place in the car. 12 for the gas tank area, 5 under each front seat, 8 across the engine bay, and 4 where the radiator would go.


----------



## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

I found a local guy who rebuilds Metro transmissions, so I had him build me this 3:79 ratio unit that I got from Pick n Pull. From what I can tell, the 4.39 ratio units that come on the '95+ Metros have no business being in an electric Metro. There are actually 4 ratios available with these transmissions; 3:52 (the holy grail), 3:79, 4:10, and 4:39. I have not been able to score a 3:52 since they are super rare, but the 3:79 that I found is not too far away from that when you consider that the one I am pulling out is a 4:39.


----------



## Nathan219 (May 18, 2010)

We removed everything and had custom gears made with dog bones between the shafts and doubled up the number of spider gears in the differential. The gears are about the size of coke cans the diff is the weak link now it really needs forged steel gears.


----------



## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

I have not updated this thread in awhile, but it is still running great. This EV has a few thousand miles on it now, and no problems. The 3.79 transmission is the way to go, and the HPEVS AC74 is a fantastic motor.


----------



## onegreenev (May 18, 2012)

Where did you show it off? Your Metro is looking great.


----------



## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

onegreenev said:


> Where did you show it off? Your Metro is looking great.


That was just a local car show. It is always kinda neat to see a Metro draw a crowd.


----------



## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

I just picked up some of these so that I can link the 1238 Curtis controller to the Orion BMS via CAN bus. This box will isolate the two canbus networks that are powered from different sources, and the controller will be able to cut back the throttle if I am sagging the pack or a cell. I understand that it will be able to cut back regen as well to protect against overcharging. Not a bad set up for us DIY builder types...


----------



## bwjunkie (Jul 31, 2013)

evmetro said:


> I am updating to a clutch to compensate for the regen. I have the new hub and now I have taken the flywheel to a local machine shop to get it resurfaced. While it was there, I had them pull the ring gear, and then mill off the lip that it was pressed on. It is now a whole lot lighter. Here is a pick of a flywheel that is reconfigured for an ev.


Are those 6 holes on a 3" diameter? If so, do you happen to have a technical drawing of the hub that you had made?

Also, I couldn't find this, maybe you posted it, but which OBD/USB adapter did you use with the Torque app?

-josh


----------



## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

The clutch hub bolt pattern is only a 2" circle. 

I have more than 1 adapter for the Torque. My preference is the obdlink bluetooth, but I also have a bunch of the ELM27s that work just as well. The OBDlink has a removable cord, and if you take the cord off of it, there is a nine pin connector. Since the Orion needs to be programmed with the nine pin candapter, it is convenient to have a nine pin bluetooth that just plugs in where the candapter was. I also use the ELM27, but those have an obd2 port instead of a nine pin. I bought a handful of obd2 ports at pick n pull and wire them directly to the 2nd CANbus lead, so I can broadcast wifi from CAN2 for my Ipad, and Can1 for my Samsung tablet.


----------



## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

I am taking a couple of the EV conversions to a car show this weekend, so I got the buffer out and did some cut n rub on the paint. The paint has cured for over a year now, and it is really hard. It sure does respond to the 2000 grit sandpaper and the buffer, and I just love a crystal clear surface. I will try to get some pics of the show to post here.










Here is that mystery guy who only shows up in reflections...










.


----------



## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

Here are a couple pics from the car show today.










Since I had a vendor booth, I brought along some literature and some EV parts to fondle, and I had some picture binders from the build phases.


----------



## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

When I built this EV, one of my goals was to cram the 21Kwh of lithium into it while leaving a factory interior, including back seat hatch area, and spare tire well. To accomplish this, I ended up having 5 groups of batteries in different locations throughout the car. This meant lots of cable runs, which also means more places to end up with a higher resistance connection. I recently found higher resistance between the + terminal of cell 13, and the + terminal of 14, which includes cell 14 and the bus bar between 13 and 14. This kinda sucked, since cells 9 through 13 are under the passenger seat, and cells 14 through 25 are where the factory gas tank used to be. I went ahead and pulled cells 14 through 25, and was not impressed with my cables that go to the box, so I went ahead and got rid of them.

Here are the original cables, including an giant Anderson connector. I have learned that if you are really picky about resistance between cells, Anderson connectors are not your friend.










Instead of the cables, I went ahead and cut out some copper bus bars that get my circuit outside of the box, where I can just bolt some cable lugs to instead of using the Anderson connector. It was sweet to be able to pull this entire group of batteries in under 5 minutes, but I am ready to live with an extra minute or two of time that it will take to undo two bolts, instead of just unplugging an Anderson.

Here are the new bus bars. The plastic casing of the batteries that the bus bars sit down into stops torque forces on the battery terminal, and their long flat length allows lots of twist and flex. I had to mess with them for awhile before feeling good about what kinds of stresses that these long bus bars could put on the battery terminals, but I feel pretty good with them now. I will probably beef up the box a little to ensure that these 12 batteries remain very flat as the car flexes.











For those who are not familiar with GBS gen 3 batteries, these purple end caps cover the ends of the batteries when you are done wiring them. Also notice 5 screw per terminal; that would be 10 per battery, and 340 of them for a 34 cell pack like this one. When you build one of these packs, you wil be at it for awhile...










.
.


----------



## dedlast (Aug 17, 2013)

That looks like a really good place for an industrial type electric torque driver. Whiz, click. Whiz, click...


----------



## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

Ok, now I have a new box built for these twelve 200AH batteries. This box is ready to hang in the car, and it just bolts into the original mounts where the original gas tank was. I have a few things to do on the car first, while the "gas tank" is out of the way. This is just 1/8" aluminum plate, with a few mount brackets welded to it. The five sides of the box get placed onto a flat bottom plate, kinda like when you place a lid over a cake, then it gets bolted together.










Here is a view of the backside










.


----------



## onegreenev (May 18, 2012)

Nice Box. Can't wait to see it all put together.


----------



## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

onegreenev said:


> Nice Box. Can't wait to see it all put together.


I am pretty anxious too. It will probably raise some questions for other motorists when they catch a glimpse of the bottom of that box.


----------



## dougingraham (Jul 26, 2011)

evmetro said:


> It will probably raise some questions for other motorists when they catch a glimpse of the bottom of that box.


Just paint it black and nobody will see it and if they do they will just think it is a fuel tank.


----------



## onegreenev (May 18, 2012)

Polish that bad boy.


----------



## Moltenmetal (Mar 20, 2014)

Onegreenev has the right idea- your polished aluminum rocks! Just got to find a clear coat that will keep it from going back to its original dull finish- don't know if clear anodize leaves a shiny finish shiny, but doubt it.


----------



## Baratong (Nov 29, 2012)

Yes, the shiny finish looks fantastic! Perhaps a clear powder-coat would keep it protected and shiny?


----------



## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

I was anxious to get this rig back on the road, so I just left the aluminum bare. This IS sunny CA and all...

Here is a picture of her on the way to work this morning when I stopped for my coffee. I have not driven this one a lot lately, so it was really nice to drive it home last night. This was my first conversion, so it does not have all the same circuits and technology that the white Metro that I just finished has, but the AC74 and 7601 combo on this 3.79 ratio transmission is absolutely delightful.










I rewired some of the HVDC circuit over the last couple of weeks, tracking down higher resistance connections, and was able to get all of the connections dialed in on cells 14 through 30, which is basically the battery box under the drivers seat, and the 12 batteries in the new "fuel tank" box above. The rest of the connections are pretty functional, but I know I can get the resistance values looking better. I will get to them some time soon.

.


----------



## cts_casemod (Aug 23, 2012)

Irony of life, I tought you'dd keep a distance of the petrol station now? 

I like your box. I used Stainless for mine, ended up a bit too heavy and some parts warped during welding. What thickness alluminium have you used on yours?


----------



## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

cts_casemod said:


> Irony of life, I tought you'dd keep a distance of the petrol station now?
> 
> I like your box. I used Stainless for mine, ended up a bit too heavy and some parts warped during welding. What thickness alluminium have you used on yours?


Yeah, I guess that picture is a bit ironic. One of the things that is interesting about the history of this rig, is that when I acquired it as a tired old car with 280,000 on the odometer, the sticker on the plate said 2004 for the last year registered. Somebody managed to put 280,000 on it between 1998 and 2004, and the last year it saw a gasoline fill up was 2004. It has been over a decade since it has gotten a gasoline fill up.

That most recent battery box is 1/8" aluminum plate, so it is not very heavy. It is replacing the original open top box that I had in there so that it is more rigid. I have those very long bus bars that each run half the width of the box, so I don't want any box flex. The original box that I had in there was just a 1/8" flat and angle stock frame that was skinned with some ultra lightweight aluminum like what is used for Coke cans, but it had more flex than I like. I will keep an eye on the battery temp inside this new box, and if they get too hot, I can open up some areas with my plasma cutter. So far, the temp looks fine, but we are not seeing a summer heat wave yet...


----------



## Baratong (Nov 29, 2012)

That is one sharp looking car! I like the way the paint job has such a mirror finish, and shines so brightly in the sun.


----------



## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

Baratong said:


> That is one sharp looking car! I like the way the paint job has such a mirror finish, and shines so brightly in the sun.


Thanks. I stole a couple pictures of my ride parked next to the nissan 350 that my paint code came from. This guy has been parking his 350 in a parking lot that I drive by everyday on my way into the shop, right where I have to see the sun doing its thing with all that pearl as I drive by...


----------



## Vhclbldr (Feb 8, 2014)

Your paintwork, aluminum work (source), and attention to detail/quality fit and finish are an inspiration to everyone, but especially me. Every time I think about the next step with my project, I wonder what you would do, or at least try to emulate your methodology.
I am taking a few liberties with not being as perfect with the paint, and keeping some of the dash decoration more stock, but I think I will be happy with the result.

My Aluminum TIG welding skills are still developing, but even though my welds don't resemble the roll-of-dimes yet, they looking less like shiny boogers. And they are holding up to the stress test really well.

I plan to do something similar to your flat/angle design from earlier in the build but, based upon the comments above, will go with thicker angle than 1/8" for the underhood racks, and definitely make a sealed box for the fuel tank replacement.

Now to just get out to the garage and work on the beast!


----------



## Moltenmetal (Mar 20, 2014)

That car is like a jewel in the sun...every time you look at it, it must make your face hurt from grinning!

Anybody can have that 350- all they need is money. Nobody else can have your car- it's a one-of-a-kind masterpiece!


----------



## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

Thanks, Vhc and Molten. I know you guys have a pretty good understanding of how much time it takes and how many little details need to be handled to bring a tired old car back to life.


----------



## AntronX (Feb 23, 2009)

Hi, could you update us on latest Wh/mi for your metro? What's highway economy like?


----------



## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

AntronX said:


> Hi, could you update us on latest Wh/mi for your metro? What's highway economy like?


It is very difficult to measure energy consumption for this rig, since it is a little bit too fun to drive it conservatively. I have done a few "nice" drives on the freeway, enough to estimate 180wh per mile, but most of the time, I go 75 to 80mph and enjoy it. When I take off from a red light, I enjoy that feeling where it feels like my seat is pushing me forward, so I do that a lot. As for highway economy, I can feel it pick up speed going down hills where my gasoline powered ones don't, so I feel pretty confident that my handiwork on the front bumper is paying off.

one of the reasons why I don't track the economy on this one, is that I intend to do some changes on this one so that it will perform like the white metro that I recently finished, so my numbers will probably change anyway. The on-demand regen system that I run on the white Metro puts off-throttle regen systems like the one I have in this rig to shame.


----------



## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

I got hold of a 3.52 ring and pinion set, and a nice 4.39 transmission, so this rig is about to have a 3.52 transmission. You can see the 4.39 ring and pinion that I pulled out, laying there in the foreground.










Here it is all ready to seal up. He transmission was in beautiful shape when I tore it down, so all I had to do was install new bearings, synchros, and seals, and swap in the 3.52 ring and pinion.










.


----------



## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

The transmission that is in this rig now is a 3.79, so the 3.52 should give me a little more performance at fast-lane freeway speeds, and maybe make 2nd gear something of interest, since I never use it now. 

What is cool about this transmission swap, is that my latest conversion, the white 93 Metro, is running a 4.39. This means that when I pull the 3.79 out to upgrade to 3.52, I can move the old 3.79 over to the white 93 and give that one an upgrade as well.


----------



## onegreenev (May 18, 2012)

Sweetness. Nice to be able to change that Ring and Pinion ratio. Looking good as usual.


----------



## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

This thing is still running great. I have a couple of battery connections that show a tiny bit of resistance, so I will clean them sometime when I get a chance. It is not urgent at this point, so I will get to them when I have the time.


----------



## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

Still running great after all these years.


----------



## Baratong (Nov 29, 2012)

evmetro said:


> Still running great after all these years.



Glad to hear it! It's been a long time.... I would love to see how your Eldorado is coming along..


----------



## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

Baratong said:


> Glad to hear it! It's been a long time.... I would love to see how your Eldorado is coming along..


Still in work, but there is progress...


----------



## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

Need some pictures!
I love looking at your work - it always looks so SMART!


----------



## Vhclbldr (Feb 8, 2014)

Good to hear about the Metro upgrade!
Makes me realize I haven't updated anything on the Electric Camino thread...


----------



## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

Had a close call awhile back with a low main pack. I wired the DC DC to run 24/7 on this rig, and the 12 volt aux battery crapped out while the car was unattended in my garage for a couple weeks. My cells dropped into the 2.5 range, but they seem to have recovered just fine. They all top balanced correctly and I do not notice any drop in capacity when I drive it, but it sure scared the crap out of me. This was my first conversion, so I did not know enough to consider wiring the DC DC for other options, but my last Metro conversion has many configuration options at the flip of a switch.


----------



## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

Still running great!


----------



## Baratong (Nov 29, 2012)

Great to hear it! Have you made any mods since the last pics?


----------



## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

Baratong said:


> Great to hear it! Have you made any mods since the last pics?


No, this rig just runs and runs. It needs a new 12v aux battery every couple years, and I have to keep up with the tire rotation more often than I do on my ice Metros because of regen. Other than that, it just keeps on running.


----------



## Moltenmetal (Mar 20, 2014)

The awesomeness of your cars cannot be overestimated.


----------



## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

Moltenmetal said:


> The awesomeness of your cars cannot be overestimated.


Thanks, it's great to see you are still around!


----------

