# Cheapest motor to tranny adapter?



## lincpimp (Feb 16, 2009)

I am contemplating doing an ev conversion, and wanted to know who makes the cheapest motor to tranny adapter, and what vehicle it goes to?

I am wide open on vehicle choice, and after looking at various premade adpaters the prices are all over the place. I would like to use a manual tranny with a clutch as that seems to be the most popular way to do it...

Not that I am cheap... but I am thrifty!


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## Voltswagen (Nov 13, 2008)

lincpimp
Clutchless is less expensive than clutched.
Do you weld? You could make your own.
Here is a link to a website which has Lovejoy tube couplers which will fit most DC Motors:
http://www.drillspot.com/products/114384/Dayton_3ZN53_Rigid_Steel_Coupling
Just drill out the rivits on the hub out of your existing clutch plate take the coupler and hub to a machine shop and have them center it. They may even weld it for you. I had my coupler machine centered for $20
You could make an adapter housing from 1/2 " aluminum plate.
Thats thrifty.


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## Guest (Feb 18, 2009)

Voltswagen said:


> lincpimp
> Clutchless is less expensive than clutched.
> Do you weld? You could make your own.
> Here is a link to a website which has Lovejoy tube couplers which will fit most DC Motors:
> ...



Thrifty is not always cheap. Don't confuse the terms. Yes you might even be able to make it your self but many don't have the time or know how and even with a book still can't. Buy a good used motor with an adaptor. But you will need to buy the same kind of car that the adaptor was made for. : )

Tough call. Some have made some real nice ones but most if not all have done home built ones without that clutch. I feel that it is not the best option considering the limits of rpm most motors have. Keep your clutch and tranny. You will be glad you did no matter what others may say. It is a two way street but I think the majority will say stick with the clutch and tranny. 

Pete : )


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## lincpimp (Feb 16, 2009)

Voltswagen said:


> lincpimp
> Clutchless is less expensive than clutched.
> Do you weld? You could make your own.
> Here is a link to a website which has Lovejoy tube couplers which will fit most DC Motors:
> ...


Thanks for the link... I may try to make my own adapter, as I have plenty of welding equipment (full auto body shop) and a good friend who is a machinist.


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## lincpimp (Feb 16, 2009)

gottdi said:


> Thrifty is not always cheap. Don't confuse the terms. Yes you might even be able to make it your self but many don't have the time or know how and even with a book still can't. Buy a good used motor with an adaptor. But you will need to buy the same kind of car that the adaptor was made for. : )
> 
> Tough call. Some have made some real nice ones but most if not all have done home built ones without that clutch. I feel that it is not the best option considering the limits of rpm most motors have. Keep your clutch and tranny. You will be glad you did no matter what others may say. It is a two way street but I think the majority will say stick with the clutch and tranny.
> 
> Pete : )


 
Hey Pete, you make a very good point with thrift and cheap. I do want good value for money, and am willing to spend what it takes to get it right.

I would like to convert a small 4 door sedan, like a civic or a sentra, as it would suit my purposes best.

I do think retaining the clutch would be a good idea, from what I have read anyways. 

Where is my best place to look for a used motor/adapter or maybe just the used adapter? I do not mind used parts, I am quite familiar with them! 1000 bucks just seems like a bit much for the parts, I do understand they are not high volume sellers, and the company does have to make a profit to stay in business...

Also, I looked around for a civic or sentra adapter and did not find anything.... Are these vehicles not popular? Am I barking up the wrong tree?


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## Greenflight (Sep 13, 2007)

I think your chances of finding a used adaptor that is of any use to you are pretty slim. If you try the "look-for-an-adaptor-before-a-car" method, I think your car choices will be so limited that it won't be worth it.

If you have some machining equipment (lathe and drill press at a minimum) you could fairly easily make your own adaptor hub. If you don't, it will probably cost about $200-$300 to have one machined.

As for the plate- I have seen plates made out of steel roughly cut to shape and spaced with stacked washers. That's the dirt cheap end of the spectrum. On the other end you have professionally machined plates and spacers that will probably cost $300-$400. Try to find a happy medium.

Good luck!


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## TheSGC (Nov 15, 2007)

Most of the adapters out there are built to order, so finding a used one will be next to impossible. I have a Civic and I designed the coupler myself, had it machined and then I drilled my own plates. I am upgrading my motor, but I am keeping the current coupling and I am going to get my new plates machined since I don't have the time to do it myself. I spent about a week drilling/cutting the plates with a battery power DeWalt jigsaw that I could only run for 20 minutes at a time, using up three batteries before having a recharge....


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## DIYguy (Sep 18, 2008)

I agree with Greenflight..... figure out what vehicle you want to convert first. The adaptor is no big challenge. If you can't buy one, making one is pretty straight fwd. Lots of help here on the forum. (even though we argue with each other for fun  )

G


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## lincpimp (Feb 16, 2009)

DIYguy said:


> I agree with Greenflight..... figure out what vehicle you want to convert first. The adaptor is no big challenge. If you can't buy one, making one is pretty straight fwd. Lots of help here on the forum. (even though we argue with each other for fun  )
> 
> G


 
Ok, I will search for a donor. Thinking mid 90s civic with a manual tranny... Anyone know which year is the lightest? I do want a 4dr model.

Looking to make a good city car, range can be around 30 miles or so. It does not need to go much faster than 45mph...

Any powertrain recomendations will be greatly appreciated!


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## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

just remember some of those cars engines turn in reverse,, keep that in mind when ordering the motor and perhaps have them reverse it for you at the factory.

Brian


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## TheSGC (Nov 15, 2007)

All Civics from 1990-2005, maybe even 2006-2009 turn Clock Wise. Take a look at my blog, I have oodles on details on my setup, and even though I am using an automatic transmission, the coupling is the same as a clutch system. I am doing a 1996 Civic LX 4 door and I am nearing completion.


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## lincpimp (Feb 16, 2009)

rctous said:


> just remember some of those cars engines turn in reverse,, keep that in mind when ordering the motor and perhaps have them reverse it for you at the factory.
> 
> Brian


Good point!



TheSGC said:


> All Civics from 1990-2005, maybe even 2006-2009 turn Clock Wise. Take a look at my blog, I have oodles on details on my setup, and even though I am using an automatic transmission, the coupling is the same as a clutch system. I am doing a 1996 Civic LX 4 door and I am nearing completion.


Looks like I have some reading to do... thanks for the info!!!!


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## PatricioIN (Jun 13, 2008)

lincpimp said:


> Ok, I will search for a donor. Thinking mid 90s civic with a manual tranny... Anyone know which year is the lightest? I do want a 4dr model.
> 
> Looking to make a good city car, range can be around 30 miles or so. It does not need to go much faster than 45mph...
> 
> Any powertrain recomendations will be greatly appreciated!


With your mileage and top speed goals, you could easily get away with a 96volt system of 6 or 8 volt deep cycle batteries. But best range with 6volts if you have room for 15 of them (I would think that wouldn't be difficult). Also, if you're in a cold winter climate, think insulated (and perhaps heated) battery boxes to maintain winter maximum range.


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## lincpimp (Feb 16, 2009)

PatricioIN said:


> With your mileage and top speed goals, you could easily get away with a 96volt system of 6 or 8 volt deep cycle batteries. But best range with 6volts if you have room for 15 of them (I would think that wouldn't be difficult). Also, if you're in a cold winter climate, think insulated (and perhaps heated) battery boxes to maintain winter maximum range.


Thats sounds like good advice. I live in southern louisiana, and have a garage to store the car in in the "winter" which is pretty mild. I can easily make the tray have some sort of insulation, seems like a good idea. 

As far as the 6v batts go, will something like golf car batts from Sams do the job? They seem to be reasonably popular. About how much do they weigh?

Also, the sub 100v setup looks like it will be cheaper for a controller and charger. And if I can reach my goals the lower number of batteries will help be easier to package. 

Does anyone else want to comment on the 90v system? I had kinda ruled it out early on, but if I can reach my goals with it, why not? I will always live close to work, so no real need to redo it anythime afterwards. I could always build a better setup if batt tech improves and they get cheaper.

On a side note I am very familiar with hobby grade lipo and nimhs... Not sure if the flat foil packed lipos would work. They have high discharge rates, and could be packaged in just about any space. Only issue is that the largest packs I have seen are 10amp/hr (10000mah) @ 3.7v nominal. What amp/hr range is popular for ev? I have read a fair amount, and somewhere between 25-40 seems to be the range, but maybe I am way off.... (I have been know to be wrong!)

A 30s3p pack of those 10amp/hr cells would be good for 8-10c discharge, so 240-300 amps cont at 111v... 

I have seen these cells sell for around 35 bucks each, so 90 off them would be around $3150... I am guessing that they will not have enough capacity to actually run the car for long enough.... Lead acid seems to still be the best bet for initial price...

Now I am just rambling, sorry...


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## judebert (Apr 16, 2008)

My '88 Civic Wagon engine turned in reverse. With the series DC motor, fixing my mistake was a matter of moving two wires. With an AC motor, it would be a matter of a simple software change -- possibly as easy as throwing a switch.


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## lincpimp (Feb 16, 2009)

Ok, so I have settled on a sentra, somewhere between 95-99. I have a 97 parts car hanging around, with a good interior and not much over 100k miles. I do need a cheapy roller with a manual tranny, but that should not be too hard to find. I own a body shop, so a wrecked car would be a great option...

So the search is on.


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## lincpimp (Feb 16, 2009)

Ok, wondering if you fine gentlemen can help me choose a motor.

Setup will be 15 6v golfcart lead acid batts for 90v or so. Car will be a late 90s sentra with a clutched manual tranny. Goal is to get 30 mile range, and a max speed of 45-50mph. This will be a city car, so power is not really that important. 

Looking at the Advanced DC motors, specifically these two:

http://www.evparts.com/prod-MT2119.htm

http://www.evparts.com/prod-MT2116.htm

Not much difference in power output at 96v. Are the ratings posted correct? Saving 200+ bucks is nice, but conversely I do not mind the extra cost if it is worth it. 

I am also looking into forklift motors, as I have a decent business contact that repairs and sells all kinds of motors. Any suggestions for a compareable forklift motor, say from curtis? Model numbers would be handy.

Thanks for the help guys, I have read alot, but actual advice on this forum has been more help than anything else I could find!


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## PatricioIN (Jun 13, 2008)

I believe my zx2 is slightly heavier than the Sentra you're looking at. I use the 8" ADC motor and it is adequate. It would meet your in city needs fine (unless perhaps you have steep hills - Indy is pretty flat). I paid $1411 for it (w/ dual shaft) through http://www.kta-ev.com/catalog.html . Single shaft is $1389. It really pays to shop around unless you have a particular reason to go with one vendor.

edit: actually, I looked it up and the Sentra should be ~ 2400lbs (mine was ~ 2500lbs).. I also have 15 batts (though 8 volts), so overall finished weight should be similar depending on how heavy your batts end up. So.... if you're going for lower speeds and 6volt batts, you should easily exceed your range expectations. Make sure to start and update a build thread when you get rolling on the project.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

If you're considering a used forklift motor you should read as much as you can in this thread:
http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showthread.php/using-forklift-motor-and-choosing-good-7598.html


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## lincpimp (Feb 16, 2009)

PatricioIN said:


> I believe my zx2 is slightly heavier than the Sentra you're looking at. I use the 8" ADC motor and it is adequate. It would meet your in city needs fine (unless perhaps you have steep hills - Indy is pretty flat). I paid $1411 for it (w/ dual shaft) through http://www.kta-ev.com/catalog.html . Single shaft is $1389. It really pays to shop around unless you have a particular reason to go with one vendor.
> 
> edit: actually, I looked it up and the Sentra should be ~ 2400lbs (mine was ~ 2500lbs).. I also have 15 batts (though 8 volts), so overall finished weight should be similar depending on how heavy your batts end up. So.... if you're going for lower speeds and 6volt batts, you should easily exceed your range expectations. Make sure to start and update a build thread when you get rolling on the project.


Good info, thanks! Sounds like an 8" motor will do. Southern Louisiana is very flat, no hills or anything. Going up a driveway is about the steepest incline I will encounter.

Batts are 62-65lbs each, so I should have slightly less than 1000lbs of them. Given the motor weight, and a few other factors I figure I can put at least 6 of them in the front where the radiator once was. I will put the rest in the trunk. I plan to remove the trunk floor between the rails and make a custom battery box. I may even remove the rear rails entirely, but I will have to see how much room I have. Construction and fab will not be an issue for that. I do plan to do as much weight removal as possible. But there is a limit... I am figuring that I will be about 500-600lbs heavier than the stock ICE setup with all liquids. 

Another though came to me last night. Does anyone run lighter weight wheels with smaller (narrower) tires? Maybe not as extreme as running donuts (space saver spare tires/wheels) but along those lines??? Maybe with the added weight of the batts it is not a good idea. Given the fact I am not going for much speed maybe I can use a smaller tire? Or is it just a waste of time and money? Probably.


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## lincpimp (Feb 16, 2009)

JRP3 said:


> If you're considering a used forklift motor you should read as much as you can in this thread:
> http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showthread.php/using-forklift-motor-and-choosing-good-7598.html


Thaks, I started reading this last night, must be about 10 or so pages in. Looks like Jim is a handy guy to have around. I have a few lift motors that I am looking at, I will have to post up some pics and see what he thinks...


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## PatricioIN (Jun 13, 2008)

lincpimp said:


> Good info, thanks! Sounds like an 8" motor will do. Southern Louisiana is very flat, no hills or anything. Going up a driveway is about the steepest incline I will encounter.
> 
> Batts are 62-65lbs each, so I should have slightly less than 1000lbs of them. Given the motor weight, and a few other factors I figure I can put at least 6 of them in the front where the radiator once was. I will put the rest in the trunk. I plan to remove the trunk floor between the rails and make a custom battery box. I may even remove the rear rails entirely, but I will have to see how much room I have. Construction and fab will not be an issue for that. I do plan to do as much weight removal as possible. But there is a limit... I am figuring that I will be about 500-600lbs heavier than the stock ICE setup with all liquids.
> 
> Another though came to me last night. Does anyone run lighter weight wheels with smaller (narrower) tires? Maybe not as extreme as running donuts (space saver spare tires/wheels) but along those lines??? Maybe with the added weight of the batts it is not a good idea. Given the fact I am not going for much speed maybe I can use a smaller tire? Or is it just a waste of time and money? Probably.


you should really read through my build thread as well.. I managed 8 batts in front and 7 in a sunken box in the trunk which actually has room for two more. Sounds like your build will be very similar to mine in the end. My batts weighed 975lbs and ended up adding 700lbs to the overall weight of the vehicle, coming in a couple of hundred lbs under the GVWR. Given your climate and terrain, 16 6 volts will give you a 96volt system which should easily get you up to highway speeds if needed and probably and easy 50mile/charge range. With nine in a trunk box (with new springs!) and 7 in the front... you'd be good to go.


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## lincpimp (Feb 16, 2009)

PatricioIN said:


> you should really read through my build thread as well.. I managed 8 batts in front and 7 in a sunken box in the trunk which actually has room for two more. Sounds like your build will be very similar to mine in the end. My batts weighed 975lbs and ended up adding 700lbs to the overall weight of the vehicle, coming in a couple of hundred lbs under the GVWR. Given your climate and terrain, 16 6 volts will give you a 96volt system which should easily get you up to highway speeds if needed and probably and easy 50mile/charge range. With nine in a trunk box (with new springs!) and 7 in the front... you'd be good to go.


I will definately read your thread. Sounds like we have similar vehicles/goals. I do plan to try to fit as many batts in the front as possible, and do not mind re-engineering the sheet metal under the hood to make things fit. A 96v system does sound good. I will read your thread and see what equipment you choose. I would really like to keep this as cheap as possible. My uncle may have a lead for me on the batts. His company gets a discount for a bulk buy, and i think 16 should qualify. He may be abe to find a forklift or two as well.

I also have a business aquaintence (sp?) that has a motor repair and supply business. I will have to call him and see what he has laying around... 

Thanks again for the help!


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## ga2500ev (Apr 20, 2008)

I'm looking for some ideas on how to create a coupler starting with the existing splined shaft coupling that came with the motor. I'm planning on a clutchless 1990 Civic that has the standard 21 spline clutch plate.

Thanks for any advise,

ga2500ev


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Here's thread with some ideas:http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showthread.php/coupler-ideasi-27260.html
Here's one that shows some potential problems to avoid:
http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showthread.php/my-electro-willys-needs-help-25633p3.html


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## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

Voltswagen said:


> lincpimp
> Clutchless is less expensive than clutched.
> Do you weld? You could make your own.
> Here is a link to a website which has Lovejoy tube couplers which will fit most DC Motors:
> ...


Actually, I'd say that's more cheap than thrifty. There are two serious problems with going this route: no provision for taking up the tremendous thrust load exerted by the clutch pressure plate; relying on a couple of set screws to withstand all of the torque and vibration... Notice how that coupling is rated for 1200 _in_-lbs of torque?!? In other words, the maximum allowable torque through this coupling is 100 ft-lbs (135 NM).


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## Voltswagen (Nov 13, 2008)

Tesseract said:


> Actually, I'd say that's more cheap than thrifty. There are two serious problems with going this route: no provision for taking up the tremendous thrust load exerted by the clutch pressure plate; relying on a couple of set screws to withstand all of the torque and vibration... Notice how that coupling is rated for 1200 _in_-lbs of torque?!? In other words, the maximum allowable torque through this coupling is 100 ft-lbs (135 NM).


Tesseract
The suggestion was for a "Clutchless" coupler. It works well on my ES-31B which is less than 100 ft. lbs. That coupler also has a 3 inch long 1/4 inch keyway so it's not the 2 set screws carrying the load.
For larger motors with higher torque, he could use the following technique:

http://www.electric-lemon.com/?q=node/213


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Solid coupling does not seem like a good idea.










> Once everything is bolted tight, you have a rigid housing and a rigid shaft. Two bearings in the tranny and two bearings in the motor. And that is the problem. Essentially four bearings on a single shaft. If you could have gotten everything aligned dead nuts perfect, it would have worked. But even the best machinists would have trouble getting it right.
> 
> So what happens is that you end up having a bending moment on the shaft. Every revolution takes the bending moment or stress around the shaft. Tension to compression. Time and time again. So it starts to fatigue. Usually at a stress riser. Like a shoulder or undercut on the shaft. A small fatigue crack starts to form. Thousands and thousands of revolutions later, it has propagated down to the shaft center to where there is too little steel to support the force and she snaps off.
> 
> This is why they make flexible couplings. Almost all motors in industry use them when the connected load has its own bearing system. Even with the flexible coupling, an attempt is made to align the motor and load within thousandths.


http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showpost.php?p=104919&postcount=43


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## Voltswagen (Nov 13, 2008)

JRP3
Yes, that looked like a nasty break. Also it's on a Warp 11 Motor with monster torque. I think my motor is maybe 80 ft. lbs. ?
Like anything else when it comes to fabrication.....plan accordingly. 
If I were using a Warp 11, I'd definetly fabricate a flexible coupling.

I broke my first 2 solid couplers which were poorly mig welded by Wilderness EV. They broke at the weld, not the keyway. (but I do have a heavy foot )
I then fabricated my own and Stick Welded the hub to a Lovejoy Tube.
To prevent the set screws from allowing the tube to slide under vibration, I slightly recessed the screw contact points on the keyway about 1/16 in. and secured the screws with thread lock.
Will it never break, never slide? Only time, and my lead foot will tell.
Roy


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## Greenflight (Sep 13, 2007)

On the thrust issue- Both of my cars use a key and two setscrews (@ 90 degrees) followed by a couple "lockscrews." They both use a clutch. After a few thousand miles of driving, I haven't had any problems with them. I had occasion to disassemble the adapter on my truck after a few hundred miles and it showed no signs of wear.


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