# [EVDL] Does V2G (Vehicle to Grid) Make Sense?



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Hi,
=

I saw from Argonne Labs, Georgia tech, Univ of Delaware, V2Green etc recent=
articles on V2G (Vehicle to Grid) load leveling from plug in hybrids or EV=
's.
=

Does any of this make sense, is it cost effective or a boondoggle like the =
"hydrogen economy".
=

An expensive (assume onboard) inverter will be needed with a smart grid RF =
signal. Who would pay for the additional cost, I doubt the consumer would?
=

Don't you need your car charged, what happens if you go to drive it and it'=
s dead back feeding the grid? (I assume the uP would limit the charge dump=
at peak hours in the afternoon).
=

If you drive a gas plug in (Volt) and it pulls power out that was generated=
by the gas engine, isn't that counterproductive?
=

There are already load leveling battery banks (AEP for example) and hydro-l=
akes that back pump and drop during peak demand (like Smith Mountain Lake h=
ere in Roanoke). =

=

Is there a good study done on this for feesability that's believable?
=

Have a renewable energy day,
Mark
_________________________________________________________________
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http://windowslive.com/explore?ocid=3DTXT_TAGLM_WL_t1_allup_explore_012009
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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Hi Mark,



> Mark Hanson <[email protected]> wrote:
> >
> > Hi,
> >
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

A "smart grid" would include some level of intelligence in a lot of major a=
ppliances including EV's. When is the best time to heat your water? Run t=
he air conditioning? Do a load of laundry? I believe in the future that t=
here will be pricing options available and structured in such a way that co=
nsumers can save money while making optimal use of resources. If your fact=
ory EV has a 20 kwh pack and you only need 4 kwh to get home after work (an=
d you've programmed it to let it know this), then why not sell off some of =
the excess? Especially if it's profitable?




________________________________
From: Mark Hanson <[email protected]>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Thursday, January 8, 2009 10:55:01 AM
Subject: [EVDL] Does V2G (Vehicle to Grid) Make Sense?


Hi,

I saw from Argonne Labs, Georgia tech, Univ of Delaware, V2Green etc recent=
articles on V2G (Vehicle to Grid) load leveling from plug in hybrids or EV=
's.

Does any of this make sense, is it cost effective or a boondoggle like the =
"hydrogen economy".

An expensive (assume onboard) inverter will be needed with a smart grid RF =
signal. Who would pay for the additional cost, I doubt the consumer would?

Don't you need your car charged, what happens if you go to drive it and it'=
s dead back feeding the grid? (I assume the uP would limit the charge dump=
at peak hours in the afternoon).

If you drive a gas plug in (Volt) and it pulls power out that was generated=
by the gas engine, isn't that counterproductive?

There are already load leveling battery banks (AEP for example) and hydro-l=
akes that back pump and drop during peak demand (like Smith Mountain Lake h=
ere in Roanoke). =


Is there a good study done on this for feesability that's believable?

Have a renewable energy day,
Mark
_________________________________________________________________
Windows Live=99: Keep your life in sync.
http://windowslive.com/explore?ocid=3DTXT_TAGLM_WL_t1_allup_explore_012009
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=

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Frank John wrote:
> 
> > A "smart grid" would include some level of intelligence in a lot of
> > major appliances including EV's. When is the best time to heat your
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Does any of this make sense,

If I had a vehicle that had V2G; I would disable it. I want my
vehicle fully charged at all times while it is awaiting me to drive
it. How could having it tied into the power grid in such a fashion
allow the battery to be fully charged and stay that way?

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

If the Grid is set up for V2G I wouldn't want to have my expensive light 
weight high tech battery pack cycled at the power companies will. I would rather 
have a large backup system in my house made of cheap golf car batteries. 
Call it H2G. (sounds redundant doesn't it) The wiring is already there all I 
need is a battery pack and some electronics. Let the power companies play with 
my non critical power storage not the one in our electric cars parked at work. 
I'd hate to get out early and not be able to go home.
Rick

In a message dated 1/9/2009 7:43:28 P.M. Central Standard Time, 
[email protected] writes:
> Does any of this make sense,

If I had a vehicle that had V2G; I would disable it. I want my
vehicle fully charged at all times while it is awaiting me to drive
it. How could having it tied into the power grid in such a fashion
allow the battery to be fully charged and stay that way?

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

The idea is you have a vehicle with a range of say 50% more than you
need on a daily basis. You then take a full charge at a discount but
offer up to say 10% of your charge back if the grid needs it. As soon
as the grid is ok again you charge back up. If you decide to go driving
at the low point you get 10% less range over what you might have had but
that should still be enough for your normal commuting needs. You
directly benefit from lower charge costs, the grid benefits from not
needing 'peaking' plants, you benefit indirectly from not paying for
those peaking plants. In a perfect world it's a win win scenario. It
does take some effort and buy-in to get there.

Lawrence

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On
Behalf Of Ryan Stotts
Sent: Friday, January 09, 2009 5:41 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Does V2G (Vehicle to Grid) Make Sense?

> Does any of this make sense,

If I had a vehicle that had V2G; I would disable it. I want my
vehicle fully charged at all times while it is awaiting me to drive
it. How could having it tied into the power grid in such a fashion
allow the battery to be fully charged and stay that way?

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> [email protected] wrote:
> > If the Grid is set up for V2G I wouldn't want to have my expensive light
> > weight high tech battery pack cycled at the power companies will.
> Some lithium batteries will have higher cycle life than you can use in
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Now... what if someone said that cycling your high-tech battery would 
provide longer life time ? Instead of keeping the cells long time in 
higher SOC states you would gain something.

Also in cold weather... some cycling would keep the cells in better 
operation condition.

Instead of just paying for the heating (external heater) and charging 
power. V2G service would provide that fo free and perhaps even some 
money back. I've recently heard of many new ideas how utilities could 
implement this.

Li cells will be more and more cycleable in future. The question is how 
much better is actually required ? 3000 cycles at 60% DOD would provide 
with 160 mile pack about 300 000 miles/10 years. And that's TODAY.

I think we have already what EVs need for success. Rest is now up to us 
how to implement it on the vehicles. It's obvious that major vehicle 
manufacturers are not going to do it.

PHEVs will provide more time for them to completely change their 
organizations. But will they go for it ? At the same time normal vehicle 
consumers would have time to adjust their thinking and driving.

-Jukka


[email protected] kirjoitti:
> If the Grid is set up for V2G I wouldn't want to have my expensive light 
> weight high tech battery pack cycled at the power companies will. I would rather 
> have a large backup system in my house made of cheap golf car batteries. 
> Call it H2G. (sounds redundant doesn't it) The wiring is already there all I 
> need is a battery pack and some electronics. Let the power companies play with 
> my non critical power storage not the one in our electric cars parked at work. 
> I'd hate to get out early and not be able to go home.
> Rick
> 
> In a message dated 1/9/2009 7:43:28 P.M. Central Standard Time, 
> [email protected] writes:
>> Does any of this make sense,
> 
> If I had a vehicle that had V2G; I would disable it. I want my
> vehicle fully charged at all times while it is awaiting me to drive
> it. How could having it tied into the power grid in such a fashion
> allow the battery to be fully charged and stay that way?
> 
> _______________________________________________
> General EVDL support: http://evdl.org/help/
> Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
> Archives: http://evdl.org/archive/
> Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev 
> 
> **************New year...new news. Be the first to know what is making 
> headlines. (http://news.aol.com?ncid=emlcntusnews00000002)
> 
> _______________________________________________
> General EVDL support: http://evdl.org/help/
> Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
> Archives: http://evdl.org/archive/
> Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
> 
> 

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

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dgoK


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Mark Hanson" <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, January 08, 2009 7:55 AM

> Does [vehicle to grid] make sense, is it cost effective or a boondoggle
> like the "hydrogen economy".

Maybe, it depends on many, many variables. In many environments having a
near line backup is a very good idea. This is not without cost, the question
of benefit depends on the reimbursement rate.

There is not only the inverter cost, there is purchase of the storage 
device, consumption of the storage device, the losses in the conversion, 
cost of the incoming energy, and payment of the outcoming energy, I'm sure 
I'm forgetting something. This of course makes it rather complicated to 
determine if V2G is good for you. For simplicity most analysis I've seen has 
assume that electricity is 100% dependable (no blackouts, etc), that the 
conversion is 100% efficient (not gonna happen), and that the storage device 
cost is rolled out across a lease-type arrangement, making any analysis 
entirely useless.

> An expensive (assume onboard) inverter will be needed with a smart grid RF
> signal. Who would pay for the additional cost, I doubt the consumer 
> would?

As near as I can tell, it is the consumer that is supposed to pay in all the 
ideas.

> There are already load leveling battery banks (AEP for example) and
> hydro-lakes that back pump and drop during peak demand (like Smith 
> Mountain
> Lake here in Roanoke).

Same basic concept except it is moved to your garage, along with the 
expenses, without the economies of scale.

> Is there a good study done on this for feesability that's believable?

There are really far too many variables to account for. In the midwest where 
electricity is sometimes not dependable, the ability to run your house when 
the power is out may make all other considerations pointless, where I live 
the difference in cost between peak and non-peak electricity is small 
enough, and the electricity dependable enough, to make V2G (or any other 
local capacity) a costly option.

A side effect of widespread V2G would also be a narrowing of the costs of 
peak and non-peak electricity, something that is nearly impossible to 
account for until it happens.
Joe 

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