# [EVDL] Real world performance of home made hybrid?



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Hello Chuck,

I did a test of this type of hybrid thing, back in 1985. Use a Buick V-6 
254 cu.in. engine that was couple to the pilot shaft of my GE-11 DC motor in 
my El Camino which I am still driving today as a pure EV now.

I use a flywheel and clutch on the engine which was control by a Dayton 
12vdc linear actuator that engage or engage the clutch on the engine.

A standard Munci transmission pilot shaft was plug into the clutch, and the 
end of this shaft was machine the same diameter of the GE-motor pilot shaft. 
I use a seal motor bearing on this transmission pilot shaft which was use in 
the same front end housing of the Munic transmission which was cut off the 
front of a broken transmission.

A Dodge Power Flex coupling was use to connect this transmission pilot shaft 
to the motor pilot shaft. The reason I made the engine disconnect from the 
motor, if the engine fail, I could still run with the motor. Plus I could 
idle the motor without running the motor while doing tuning or maintenance 
work.

Disconnecting the engine also allow me to roller coast these mountain roads 
in the summer and allows some compression braking in the winter which I 
really design it for.

I use this rig for about the last five years of going up a grade for about 2 
miles and then a very steep grade for another 2 miles while going to work 
every day.

Using engine alone, (no hybred yet), going up this hill at 75 to 80 mph, my 
engine vacuum would drop to 2 in.hg. and the mpg would be about 5 mpg for 
about 2 miles. Coming down, the mpg would go over 100 mpg for this same 2 
miles at 22 in.hg. but all this does to the average mpg is about doubles the 
5 mpg to about 9.9 mpg.

Using the GE-11 motor alone, I could go up this hill at 60 mph, but at a 600 
amp battery amp, (not motor amp) which is very hard on the batteries plus 
connections, so I kept it about 35 mph at about 300 amp.

Coming down in the winter time on a icy hill is dangerous. I just had to 
let it go without touching the brakes.

To solve this problem, I then add the engine, where I now can keep the 
engine vacuum above 15 in.hg. with the held of the motor at about 200 amps, 
have a 2 way average of 33 mph.

This system is great for highway driving, but when I no longer had to go up 
this hill everyday. The electric range around town at 25 mph was cut in 
half because of the additive weight of the engine system. Also when using 
the engine only, the mpg was also cut in half.

In one of my cars I only use for highway driving, I plan to use the NETGAIN 
EMIS hybred system in a 1975 classic Chevelle. This vehicle does not have 
the computer system that the EMIS interfaces with, but I will only use a 
Square D industrial vacuum switch to control the motor control.

To smoothly engage the electric motor at or about the same rpm as the 
engine. I link the accelerator control to the engine fuel control. I set 
it when the engine is at about 500 rpm idle, the accelerator control turns 
off the motor control. I use standard multiple carburetor linkages with 
adjustment cams that are normally use on multiple carburetors.

I also experiment with a vacuum modulator that lengthen or shorten up the 
motor control accelerator linkage which either gave a little or greater 
increase of motor power.

To fine tune the engine and motor rpm, just install another 5 Kohm pot in 
series with the accelerator 5 kohm pot. Use a micro switch on the linkage 
to take this extra pot out of the circuit when you shut down, or you cannot 
restart unless the ohm value is a certain shut down level.

One time I forgot to reset the motor accelerator resistance before I 
restarted and for about a hour, could not figure out what happen. This 
makes a good anti theft unit. Same thing happens if I get the floor mats 
push up on the accelerator pedal.

I did not like using gasoline in this vehicle, so just before I remove this 
system, I ran the engine on hydrogen and oxygen to see how much damage I can 
do to the main bearings, which took them out with in four minutes.

Roland


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Chuck Homic" <[email protected]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, December 24, 2007 12:43 PM
Subject: [EVDL] Real world performance of home made hybrid?


> I've done some searching on the interwebs, and aside from 21ponies.com,
> I can't find anyone that's made a homebrew PHEV. I was thinking of this
> driving home yesterday. Without going to the trouble of installing a
> diesel powerplant in my car, I could just stick a small series DC motor
> on the end of my crankshaft (ignoring physical size limits), throw 8 or
> so leaddies in the trunk and connect a cheap controller. Now I've got a
> plug-in hybrid for $2500 plus wires. You'd think with 100Ah batteries
> (9600 watts in the bank, 4800 at 50%DOD) and a car that "should" use
> 350wh/mile, you could supply half that with electric for 25 miles. Now
> I wouldn't expect 50mpg out of it, but you'd think my Outback which gets
> 22-28mpg should be able to get in the high thirties. This setup as a
> pure electric should go 20 miles, so for short trips, it should get
> better mpg than the lame hybrids available now. For long trips it will
> be no worse than my current car (exept for the 500lbs of lead in the 
> trunk).
>
> For those of you ready to reply "shut up and do it" you can sit on your
> hands now. I'm looking for some thoughtful analysis, or references to
> other similar projects, perhaps some way to frame the calculations so
> that they make sense, etc. With my pure-EV donor sitting in the garage
> waiting to get its engine yanked, I'm not about to embark on this
> project at the same time, so for now it's a thought experiment. 
>
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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Roland -

That's an interesting setup on your El Camino. I certainly was thinking 
of something much simpler. Just a directly coupled motor asssist to 
apply manually at various times to reduce the effort by the ICE. (Which 
is, I believe, how the 21ponies neon worked.)

If I got you, you said that the hybrid setup tripled your mpg on the 
hills, and cut mpg in half otherwise? That actually sounds miserable.

I happen to know that when I carry 500lbs of cargo, my mpg doesn't 
change that much. (Maybe 22 to 20 in city driving, highway mileage 
doesn't change at all) So I figure even if the electric system is not 
operating, that's the kind of loss I'd see. Maybe the El Camino is more 
sensitive to additional weight, or you were taking more losses in your 
modified drive train than I would expect.

Now, I'm trying to think of a way to cheaply prototype this.  Crap, I 
hate when my mind starts going down these lines.

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Look at NetGain and their EMIS set up. That is exactly what they do and they repot a 26% improvement in mileage. I hope to get my hybrid on the road in 2 weeks and will let you know.

-----Original Message-----
From: Chuck Homic <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, December 24, 2007 2:43 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <[email protected]>
Subject: [EVDL] Real world performance of home made hybrid?

I've done some searching on the interwebs, and aside from 21ponies.com, 
I can't find anyone that's made a homebrew PHEV. I was thinking of this 
driving home yesterday. Without going to the trouble of installing a 
diesel powerplant in my car, I could just stick a small series DC motor 
on the end of my crankshaft (ignoring physical size limits), throw 8 or 
so leaddies in the trunk and connect a cheap controller. Now I've got a 
plug-in hybrid for $2500 plus wires. You'd think with 100Ah batteries 
(9600 watts in the bank, 4800 at 50%DOD) and a car that "should" use 
350wh/mile, you could supply half that with electric for 25 miles. Now 
I wouldn't expect 50mpg out of it, but you'd think my Outback which gets 
22-28mpg should be able to get in the high thirties. This setup as a 
pure electric should go 20 miles, so for short trips, it should get 
better mpg than the lame hybrids available now. For long trips it will 
be no worse than my current car (exept for the 500lbs of lead in the trunk)

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Well, notice that no mainstream manufacturers have made a series hybrid.

Here's the thing. So say you have like 10% lost in the generator head, and 10% lost in the motor. Now lead acid batts may also lose 20% or more of the energy used to charge them too. So will this engine really be that much more efficient than the car engine? Cause modern car engines with computer controls are actually pretty impressive for efficiency.

The Prius is misunderstood for a couple of reasons. First, it gets a LOT of its mpg gain from the extremely low-drag profile. Second, the "hybrid" status was not brought in because adding a motor and batts made it more efficient. It was brought in because they wanted to use an "Atkins" engine, a concept invented many years ago that would be significantly more efficient yet had a poor peak power. No one would be able to drive a car that crawls off a stoplight. So, they brought in the NiMH batt system to compensate for the Atkin's shortcoming allowing them to take advantage of the Atkins' efficiency.

The point being, the batts added nothing to the mpg themselves. The drag profile and Atkins engine added that. The NiMH pack was essential to allowing the Atkins to be used so it is only indirectly related to the mpg gains.

Adding parallel-hybrid drive probably won't gain a car much if anything. Adding series hybrid, without any remarkable (and they need to be remarkable) improvements in engine efficiency will dramatically reduce mpg because it's just adding losses upon losses. Do you have some special engine in mind, or what?

Danny



> ---- David Hrivnak <[email protected]> wrote:
> > Look at NetGain and their EMIS set up. That is exactly what they do and they repot a 26% improvement in mileage. I hope to get my hybrid on the road in 2 weeks and will let you know.
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

For homebrew, I dunno. But if you are talking about series hybrids in
general... As a plugin, it will be a lot more efficient when running in EV
mode. That's really what counts the most. If you can at least break even
on straight ICE mileage after the batteries deplete, it's good enough
considering you probably won't get to that point that often so it's still a
huge net gain.

-----Original Message-----
Here's the thing. So say you have like 10% lost in the generator head, and
10% lost in the motor. Now lead acid batts may also lose 20% or more of the
energy used to charge them too. So will this engine really be that much
more efficient than the car engine? Cause modern car engines with computer
controls are actually pretty impressive for efficiency.



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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

[No message]


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> [email protected] wrote:
> > Adding series hybrid, without any remarkable (and they need to be remarkable) improvements in engine efficiency will dramatically reduce mpg because it's just adding losses upon losses. Do you have some special engine in mind, or what?
> >
> I don't believe that's entirely true though. I'm not an expert so I
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

(This is OT, but I think worthy)

Danny is right, All motive power in the Prius is ultimately derived from 
the ICE (unless we plug it in). Although you also benefit be recovering 
otherwise-lost braking energy. (Yes! Regen!!) This boosts city MPG 
significantly.

-Phil
http://evalbum.com/1413

----- Original Message ----- 
From: <[email protected]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, December 25, 2007 11:34 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Real world performance of home made hybrid?


> Well, notice that no mainstream manufacturers have made a series hybrid.
>
> Here's the thing. So say you have like 10% lost in the generator head, 
> and 10% lost in the motor. Now lead acid batts may also lose 20% or more 
> of the energy used to charge them too. So will this engine really be that 
> much more efficient than the car engine? Cause modern car engines with 
> computer controls are actually pretty impressive for efficiency.
>
> The Prius is misunderstood for a couple of reasons. First, it gets a LOT 
> of its mpg gain from the extremely low-drag profile. Second, the "hybrid" 
> status was not brought in because adding a motor and batts made it more 
> efficient. It was brought in because they wanted to use an "Atkins" 
> engine, a concept invented many years ago that would be significantly more 
> efficient yet had a poor peak power. No one would be able to drive a car 
> that crawls off a stoplight. So, they brought in the NiMH batt system to 
> compensate for the Atkin's shortcoming allowing them to take advantage of 
> the Atkins' efficiency.
>
> The point being, the batts added nothing to the mpg themselves. The drag 
> profile and Atkins engine added that. The NiMH pack was essential to 
> allowing the Atkins to be used so it is only indirectly related to the mpg 
> gains.
>
> Adding parallel-hybrid drive probably won't gain a car much if anything. 
> Adding series hybrid, without any remarkable (and they need to be 
> remarkable) improvements in engine efficiency will dramatically reduce mpg 
> because it's just adding losses upon losses. Do you have some special 
> engine in mind, or what?
>
> Danny
>


> > ---- David Hrivnak <[email protected]> wrote:
> >> Look at NetGain and their EMIS set up. That is exactly what they do and
> >> they repot a 26% improvement in mileage. I hope to get my hybrid on the
> >> road in 2 weeks and will let you know.
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> [email protected] wrote:
> > notice that no mainstream manufacturers have made a series hybrid.
> 
> They exist; railroad locomotives (diesel-electric) and off-road
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Lee Hart <[email protected]> wrote:
> > [email protected] wrote:
> > > notice that no mainstream manufacturers have made a series hybrid.
> >
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

But if your series hybrid is a plug-in, then you can use an
alternative fuel. Chevy Volt idea.


> I think the reason for this is that the series hybrid is a special case
> solution. It is great for low speed driving with lots of starts and
> stops. But it isn not well suited for continuous high-speed cruising,
> because the series losses of the engine-generator-motor take a bite out
> of efficiency. If you care about efficiency, the series hybrid is not
> the best choice.
>
> --
> "Never doubt that the work of a small group of thoughtful, committed
> citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever
> has!" -- Margaret Mead
> --
> Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>



-- 
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/1059
http://stormselectric.blogspot.com/
Storm

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