# Team Lithiumaniacs Top Priority!



## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)




----------



## rbgrn (Jul 24, 2007)

FYI - Users may find it more convenient if you were to upload the photos using the attachments feature. That will generate thumbnails and allow for more photos on individual posts. Just look for the paperclip when creating a post.


----------



## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

There's some places where you can lose quite a bit more weight, if you want maximum performance. The front clip is the factory Gen II Camaro subframe, meaning this is a back-halved car. The problem is that front clip is about 200-300lbs too heavy for what it offers in a drag car.

Weld in an Alston front clip, and chop the rest of the steel cowl and firewall out (replace it with aluminum). That's the link to a 2x3-inch clip that can run on the street. If it's all all-drag, and baby's-bottom smooth street, car you can use the round-tube clip to lighten it even more.


----------



## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

Okay, will use that option next time. 



rbgrn said:


> FYI - Users may find it more convenient if you were to upload the photos using the attachments feature. That will generate thumbnails and allow for more photos on individual posts. Just look for the paperclip when creating a post.


----------



## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

Yes, I agree we thought of chopping the front factory clip and installing a Alston front clip. We decided (because we bought it already welded) that we will use lighter front control arms. We will trim more of the front body off. We are installing an aluminum firewall etc...everything will be aluminum. The seat "bracket" will be welded to the frame and the aluminum seat bolted to the bracket, this is a must with aluminum flooring. The battery case will be aluminum also. The side and back windows will be flexi. I tell you the car is very light the way it is. When completed I will get a weight at our local scale, I predict below 2500lbs. 



toddshotrods said:


> There's some places where you can lose quite a bit more weight, if you want maximum performance. The front clip is the factory Gen II Camaro subframe, meaning this is a back-halved car. The problem is that front clip is about 200-300lbs too heavy for what it offers in a drag car.
> 
> Weld in an Alston front clip, and chop the rest of the steel cowl and firewall out (replace it with aluminum). That's the link to a 2x3-inch clip that can run on the street. If it's all all-drag, and baby's-bottom smooth street, car you can use the round-tube clip to lighten it even more.


----------



## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

The rear already has 4:11 gears, I must test this ratio with our two Netgain 11" motors, they are not HV motors so rpm's are limited. Might have to switch to 3:73 if we top out before the end of the 1/4 mile. Much testing to do, will have a fun 2011 season racing this baby.


----------



## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

LithiumaniacsEVRacing said:


> ...decided (because we bought it already welded) that we will use lighter front control arms...


Not really a big deal, just wanted to point it out. I had a 2nd gen that I was building for handling, so I kept the factory front clip. I did some fiberglass work for a guy building a 2nd gen drag car that also had the factory subframe. He did the tubular arms, etc, and kicked himself in the end because he didn't lose much weight, but spent almost as much money as the whole clip would have been. Since the whole car is already set up it's really pretty simple to cut that clip out and weld the Alston clip in place of it. That's a 1-2 day job for a good chassis shop. The weight is in the frame and spindles, not so much in the arms.

You're probably going to need a (numerically) lower gear ratio for sure, if you have the battery pack to get there. What's the diameter of the rear tires? It usually takes a 32-33" to fill up a 2nd gen rear half. Looks like that's what they are.


----------



## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

Todd,

I have just viewed your website, very impressive. I also grew up in the "Muscle Care Era" and now have dedicated my future to bring my children into the "EV ERA of Muscle Cars". LOL. It sounds funny, but if someone told me 15 years ago I would be building EV Race cars I would have laughed at them. Shows how the future is changing everyday (or I'm just getting older). 



toddshotrods said:


> There's some places where you can lose quite a bit more weight, if you want maximum performance. The front clip is the factory Gen II Camaro subframe, meaning this is a back-halved car. The problem is that front clip is about 200-300lbs too heavy for what it offers in a drag car.
> 
> Weld in an Alston front clip, and chop the rest of the steel cowl and firewall out (replace it with aluminum). That's the link to a 2x3-inch clip that can run on the street. If it's all all-drag, and baby's-bottom smooth street, car you can use the round-tube clip to lighten it even more.


----------



## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

I will race it as is, will get good times hopefully. The whole nose will be carbon fiber, fenders and hood so saving plenty of weight there. Have you ever lifted a stock "metal" 1981 Camaro fender, very heavy. With direct drive less a trans and an aluminum flywheel she will be light enough. Maybe the next dragster I will go all out full tube chassis. This one I am rushing to complete before our shows and season opens. 



toddshotrods said:


> Not really a big deal, just wanted to point it out. I had a 2nd gen that I was building for handling, so I kept the factory front clip. I did some fiberglass work for a guy building a 2nd gen drag car that also had the factory subframe. He did the tubular arms, etc, and kicked himself in the end because he didn't lose much weight, but spent almost as much money as the whole clip would have been. Since the whole car is already set up it's really pretty simple to cut that clip out and weld the Alston clip in place of it. That's a 1-2 day job for a good chassis shop. The weight is in the frame and spindles, not so much in the arms.
> 
> You're probably going to need a (numerically) lower gear ratio for sure, if you have the battery pack to get there. What's the diameter of the rear tires? It usually takes a 32-33" to fill up a 2nd gen rear half. Looks like that's what they are.


----------



## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

LithiumaniacsEVRacing said:


> ...I have just viewed your website, very impressive...


Thanks. I'm kind of hiding in plain sight. I had a shop but closed the business and sold it. Trying to figure out where I want to go next.

I'm having fun with electric, but I'm not a true _save-the-planet, convert-the-world_, type. I just like how clean looking the powertrain can be, and the torque.


As I said, the front clip isn't really a big deal. I just didn't know if you were aware of it, and wanted to point it out in case you end up looking to lose a couple hundred pounds. It can actually be done any time, even in the middle of the season - if the shop is good.


----------



## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

Thanks for your info. Its funny where we all stand on the EV issue. Some are very liberal and think of saving the planet. Some are electrical engineers and love this new era, and some are like me, bored with ICE and want to try something new. I also hate buying oil from our enemies, and think EV use is better for National Security. I am no liberal trying to save the world, just an independent trying to have fun and weed America off foreign oil. 



toddshotrods said:


> Thanks. I'm kind of hiding in plain sight. I had a shop but closed the business and sold it. Trying to figure out where I want to go next.
> 
> I'm having fun with electric, but I'm not a true _save-the-planet, convert-the-world_, type. I just like how clean the powertrain can be, and and the torque.
> 
> ...


----------



## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

I edited my post to say clean looking. The electric motor in my street rod gives me a very compact (with lithium cells) powertrain, without traditional cooling, intake, and exhaust, systems to plumb.

I'm far from bored with ICE though. My heart still skips a beat, my pulse quickens, and an involuntary smile splits my face every time I hear a sexy ICE slinging C02 into the atmosphere!


----------



## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

LOL. I love the thrill of more HP and Torque! If I can receive that from an EV I will be impressed. I have owned over 20 street dragsters in my years. My first was a 1968 Chevelle, my fastest was a 1968 Dart GTS with a 383. One of my wildest was a Chevy Monza custom shortened rear, 327 engine. One of my favorite was my 1970 Duster 340 4 speed Hurst. I starting racing around 1983/84 year. We street raced at night at the end of highways in CT, we drag raced at Englishtown, NJ.

Ready for something new! 



toddshotrods said:


> I edited my post to say clean looking. The electric motor in my street rod gives me a very compact (with lithium cells) powertrain, with traditional cooling, intake, and exhaust, systems to plumb.
> 
> I'm far from bored with ICE though. My heart still skips a beat, my pulse quickens, and an involuntary smile splits my face every time I hear a sexy ICE slinging C02 into the atmosphere!


----------



## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

LithiumaniacsEVRacing said:


> Okay, will use that option next time.


I have put all your photos into your first post. It will tidy things up for you.


----------



## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

Thank you! and Happy Thanksgiving to all!



Woodsmith said:


> I have put all your photos into your first post. It will tidy things up for you.


----------



## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

Team Lithiumaniacs has hired _Bill Scrivener of Scrivener Performance Engineering. He has over 30 years in drag racing experience, he has custom built drag racing chassis for many teams still racing today._

_His recommendations for our 1981 Camaro dragster are:_

_* New fiberglass doors, trunk lid, and one piece nose._
_* Custom built motor brackets moving the motors closer to the rear._
_* Custom built battery boxes._
_* Tube front controll arms (will save 50lbs)._
_* Two additional rool cage bars._
_* New ring and pinion matching the motor and wheels._

_etc.....pictures coming on modifications and assembly! _


----------



## DavidDymaxion (Dec 1, 2008)

I'm not claiming to be a drag racing or EV expert, but here's a couple things that jumped to mind:

Since batteries are heavy, and can be put almost anywhere, I wouldn't think you'd need to move the motors, just move the pack back a little more. You can also build an oversized battery box, and move batteries forward or back, fill the empty space with foam or something, to adjust weight balance. Bill Dube ( NEDRA Killacycle record setter) also says the height of the pack is important for tuning.

What ring and pinion is he recommending? On what basis? Why not get some data with the existing gear first? That's something that is just as easily changed after the conversion to electric power.

The NEDRA board ( http://www.NEDRA.com ) would be the best place to ask about these things -- they'll give good advice for free.


LithiumaniacsEVRacing said:


> Team Lithiumaniacs has hired _Bill Scrivener of Scrivener Performance Engineering. He has over 30 years in drag racing experience, he has custom built drag racing chassis for many teams still racing today._
> 
> _His recommendations for our 1981 Camaro dragster are:_
> 
> ...


----------



## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

DavidDymaxion said:


> I'm not claiming to be a drag racing or EV expert, but here's a couple things that jumped to mind:
> 
> Since batteries are heavy, and can be put almost anywhere, I wouldn't think you'd need to move the motors, just move the pack back a little more. You can also build an oversized battery box, and move batteries forward or back, fill the empty space with foam or something, to adjust weight balance...


Agreeing with David here. Compared to the weight of a V8 and transmission, your siamese Warp 11s are already removing a significant amount of weight from the front, in effect moving weight back. That's as much as you get from me for free though. 





DavidDymaxion said:


> ...Bill Dube ( NEDRA Killacycle record setter) also says the height of the pack is important for tuning...


It's important on any vehicle, but crucial on a dragbike like Killacycle, because there are two wheels, spaced relatively close together, and a lot of power. Plus, he's on a wrinkle wall, which expands and contracts on and off power. Weight bias, height, CG, etc, are all important though. Cars are just much more forgiving - especially when you bounce off the wall! 





DavidDymaxion said:


> ...What ring and pinion is he recommending? On what basis? Why not get some data with the existing gear first? That's something that is just as easily changed after the conversion to electric power...


You can ballpark the ratio pretty good with some simple calculations, but will likely have to fine tune (buy more ring and pinion sets) for the last few tenths.


----------



## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

Thank you gentlemen, 

We have a dyno here in Wallingford, CT, not far from the shop. Once the car is complete we will dyno with different gear ratio's to see what works best for our motor/controller/battery set-up. All fabrication and testing should be complete before our first race in March, 2011 in Florida.


----------



## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

In regards to the placement of the motors and battery boxes, we have figured out the weight balance. The motors will sit 10" rear to where the "stock" front of the ICE sat, this will give better balance and a shorter driveshaft. The battery boxes will be sunk into the frame in the rear and front of the car. Works like magic!


----------



## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

*Updated Website Info!*

*WarpFactor II

Team Lithiumaniacs* has decided to unleash information and pictures of our EV Drag Racing Priority. The completely customized tube chassis 1981 Chevy Camaro! This car is LIGHT and built with the strongest drag racing components you can buy. 

* WarP-11,Double ended shaft - advanced timing, 1.375", 32-tooth splined DE Shaft, Lift-eye bolt hole, thermal switch included. CE shaft is same as typical WarP 11
* TransWarP-11,Double ended shaft - advanced timing, 1.375", 32-tooth splined DE Shaft, Lift-eye bolt hole, thermal switch included. 8 mounting holes on CE, double wide bearings on DE. CE shaft has identical splines as DE 2" long.
* Cafe Electric - Zilla 2K 
* Lithium battery pack 
* Custom 9" rear Strange Axles
* 4 Link drag suspension
* Aluminum rims with drag racing tires
* Aluminum floors, firewall, wheel wells, etc...
* Fiberglass one piece nose, doors, trunk.

http://www.lithiumaniacsracing.com/


----------



## DavidDymaxion (Dec 1, 2008)

*Re: Updated Website Info!*

Looks like a serious racer. The top windshield bar looks low -- you should check if that meets safety specs especially if you are tall.


LithiumaniacsEVRacing said:


> *WarpFactor II
> 
> Team Lithiumaniacs* has decided to unleash information and pictures of our EV Drag Racing Priority. The completely customized tube chassis 1981 Chevy Camaro! This car is LIGHT and built with the strongest drag racing components you can buy.
> 
> ...


----------



## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

Thanks David,

The complete car is at our chassis guy, he is completing the tin and installing a few more bars. She will be within NHRA specs, unless she goes under 7 seconds in the 1/4 mile, I doubt she will be that fast. After all the testing is complete I am hoping for 9 seconds. We'll see.


----------



## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

LithiumaniacsEVRacing said:


> Thanks David,
> 
> The complete car is at our chassis guy, he is completing the tin and installing a few more bars. She will be within NHRA specs, unless she goes under 7 seconds in the 1/4 mile, I doubt she will be that fast. After all the testing is complete I am hoping for 9 seconds. We'll see.


You have enough chassis to get in the 9s easily, the problem is you're going to need one helluva battery pack to push that thing through the atmosphere over 100mph. That's what the comments about the car were. They were about the facts of the car, not to put you down. Second-gen Camaros have horrible aero characteristics, and that duckbill rear spoiler doesn't help matters. You would be much better getting rid of it and adding a substantial amount of aluminum drag-style wing to the back to smooth the air flow. You can make it work but there were better choices considering the fact that you were buying a car and didn't have a devotion to any specific brand/model. You'll be wasting a good bit of your energy on overcoming the deficiencies.


----------



## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

Thanks for your concern, one of the best east coast chassis guys has joined ECEDRA, he will handle the car. He has plenty of changes coming, I will post pictures for ALL to see. 

I have always taken you recommendations with open arms, so why did you join the attack squad? Many here claim to be specialists building cars, but I see very little but plans. I have a schedule to meet, my plans are not just talk, I must move forward. Yes, there will be changes as we progress. 



toddshotrods said:


> You have enough chassis to get in the 9s easily, the problem is you're going to need one helluva battery pack to push that thing through the atmosphere over 100mph. That's what the comments about the car were. They were about the facts of the car, not to put you down. Second-gen Camaros have horrible aero characteristics, and that duckbill rear spoiler doesn't help matters. You would be much better getting rid of it and adding a substantial amount of aluminum drag-style wing to the back to smooth the air flow. You can make it work but there were better choices considering the fact that you were buying a car and didn't have a devotion to any specific brand/model. You'll be wasting a good bit of your energy on overcoming the deficiencies.


----------



## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

LithiumaniacsEVRacing said:


> Thanks for your concern, one of the best east coast chassis guys has joined ECEDRA, he will handle the car. He has plenty of changes coming, I will post pictures for ALL to see.
> 
> I have always taken you recommendations with open arms, so why did you join the attack squad? Many here claim to be specialists building cars, but I see very little but plans. I have a schedule to meet, my plans are not just talk, I must move forward. Yes, there will be changes as we progress.


I have never attacked you, and have always been very careful about how I word every post. You're perceiving constructive criticism as attacks because you're expecting to be attacked. Six people come down the road towards you. Three are throwing stones at you because they don't like you. Two are throwing them because you're getting ready to walk off the side of a cliff and won't listen to them telling you to stop walking. One is telling you why all the others are throwing stones. Are they all attacking you? All you see is the stones, not the message behind them.

I have a two-fold interest in you and your plans. Number one, is others are/will be reading the posts about racing on this forum (in other words, it has nothing to do with either one of us). Two, is because if you have the financial capacity to do what you have indicated, you had the opportunity to advance the sport (of EV drag racing). You're not really listening to the wisdom being shared, meaning that opportunity is being lost, so I divert my attention to keeping the discussions centered on the tech involved so hopefully the next person will catch it. Sometimes that means pointing out what's wrong with a plan to disuss what should have been done, and what could be done better in the future. It's not about you, it's about the community.


----------



## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

LithiumaniacsEVRacing said:


> Thanks for your concern, one of the best east coast chassis guys has joined ECEDRA, he will handle the car...


I think that's the main point you're missing. Building a fast EV is really not the same as building a fast ICE. There are technical issues and physics that come into play that ICE guys never have to consider. We've kind of all been shouting this at you since you first posted, but you always end with something to the effect that you have that covered. I came in the same way, thinking I could just learn a few simple technical tricks about EVs, plug them into my former ICE plans, and go fast. It's more of a philosophy than a technical issue.


----------



## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

Todd,

I totally understand and hear you. My own "specialists" admits this ev drag racing car is a special project to learn from. We also have a few people involved with the team that have built ev's and even a few that are electrical engineers. 

When I come to this sight to ask "lazy questions" I am just looking for a response. I have been addicted to message boards since I promoted stocks. Most of my questions are to "see" the response. Some I agree with some I don't. I never trust a message board for vital information, I always go to a source. The boards are mostly for a laugh. You guys take this message board posting to a new level. 

Example:

I posted many types of batteries and looked for a response, I had a good idea what I was buying, but wanted opinions on other batteries. Everyone had a different opinion. 



toddshotrods said:


> I think that's the main point you're missing. Building a fast EV is really not the same as building a fast ICE. There are technical issues and physics that come into play that ICE guys never have to consider. We've kind of all been shouting this at you since you first posted, but you always end with something to the effect that you have that covered. I came in the same way, thinking I could just learn a few simple technical tricks about EVs, plug them into my former ICE plans, and go fast. It's more of a philosophy than a technical issue.


----------



## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

LithiumaniacsEVRacing said:


> ...I posted many types of batteries and looked for a response, I had a good idea what I was buying, but wanted opinions on other batteries. Everyone had a different opinion.


You really don't understand what you're reading do you? Wow. I guess this explains it:





LithiumaniacsEVRacing said:


> ...I never trust a message board for vital information, I always go to a source. The boards are mostly for a laugh. You guys take this message board posting to a new level...


Too bad, you're completely missing it. Like the others, I won't waste my time anymore then, since it's just for your entertainment purposes.


----------



## CroDriver (Jan 8, 2009)

Wow, this looks great for a racer!

A pity that here in Europe we simply don't have such cars...

How much would such a thing cost there in the US (Todd?). 

I would really consider to buy something like this from the US and make a 1.500 hp EV racer... But I would need the help of someone who know this stuff... I have the impression that Todd has some knowledge in this field.


----------



## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

CroDriver said:


> Wow, this looks great for a racer!
> 
> A pity that here in Europe we simply don't have such cars...
> 
> ...


You can buy drag cars, without motor, and with titles, pretty reasonably here Cro. I worked on a Vega that the guy bought for $12,500. It had a full Chris Alston (one of the big name Pro chassis builders) tube chassis, Dana 60 rear end, full aluminum interior, wheels, tires, etc. The car came from a guy we knew that had been running 9.90's consistently. It launched straight and hard, and was certified to 7.50, like Lithiumaniac's. Ron has never mentioned exactly what he paid, but it was probably a good deal. The parts usually sel for half or less than what they cost new, after being used on a race car.

Buy one and have it shipped over to Croatia. Any knowledge I have to contribute is ready when you need it. I'd help turn some wrenches on it, if my arms could reach across that darn pond. 1,500hp would get it down the track!


----------



## CroDriver (Jan 8, 2009)

toddshotrods said:


> You can buy drag cars, without motor, and with titles, pretty reasonably here Cro. I worked on a Vega that the guy bought for $12,500. It had a full Chris Alston (one of the big name Pro chassis builders) tube chassis, Dana 60 rear end, full aluminum interior, wheels, tires, etc. The car came from a guy we knew that had been running 9.90's consistently. It launched straight and hard, and was certified to 7.50, like Lithiumaniac's. Ron has never mentioned exactly what he paid, but it was probably a good deal. The parts usually sel for half or less than what they cost new, after being used on a race car.
> 
> Buy one and have it shipped over to Croatia. Any knowledge I have to contribute is ready when you need it. I'd help turn some wrenches on it, if my arms could reach across that darn pond. 1,500hp would get it down the track!


Thanks for the information Todd!

So I could simply buy a used ICE drag car without the ICE stuff but with all the other things I do need (body, wheels, tires, differential, suspension, brakes etc.)? And that would still be less than 20 grand? Hmmm, this makes me really think seriously 

How much hp do they run in this cars anyway?


----------



## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

CroDriver said:


> Thanks for the information Todd!
> 
> So I could simply buy a used ICE drag car without the ICE stuff but with all the other things I do need (body, wheels, tires, differential, suspension, brakes etc.)? And that would still be less than 20 grand? Hmmm, this makes me really think seriously
> 
> How much hp do they run in this cars anyway?


No prob, Cro. 

Sure could, that Vega had all top-notch equipment on it. It was under 2500lbs with the (Chevy 355cu-in V8, TH400 trans) ICE in it. A 7.50-certified chassis can handle at least a couple thousand horsepower, and is built to take the torque of repeated hard launches. How much they run is dependent on budget, class, etc.

The site he linked before RacingJunk.com is a good place to look, and in the National Dragster magazine's classified ads.

With your no-nonsense approach to things, you would _fly!_


----------



## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

They are cheap, google used drag chassis there are many websites designed to sell used racing parts. Shipping to Europe by container is not that expensive. Good luck Cro.



toddshotrods said:


> You can buy drag cars, without motor, and with titles, pretty reasonably here Cro. I worked on a Vega that the guy bought for $12,500. It had a full Chris Alston (one of the big name Pro chassis builders) tube chassis, Dana 60 rear end, full aluminum interior, wheels, tires, etc. The car came from a guy we knew that had been running 9.90's consistently. It launched straight and hard, and was certified to 7.50, like Lithiumaniac's. Ron has never mentioned exactly what he paid, but it was probably a good deal. The parts usually sel for half or less than what they cost new, after being used on a race car.
> 
> Buy one and have it shipped over to Croatia. Any knowledge I have to contribute is ready when you need it. I'd help turn some wrenches on it, if my arms could reach across that darn pond. 1,500hp would get it down the track!


----------



## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

Cro,

This info might help:

http://usedracingparts.com/cgi-bin/urp_class.cgi?
http://www.racingjunk.com/
http://www.roushyatesparts.com/Drag_...ucts_s/531.htm
http://www.2ndliferacing.com/
http://www.mrracingequipment.com/M&R...ed%20Parts.htm
http://www.autoracingtrader.com/


----------

