# The ICE is OUT! Progress!



## rfengineers (Jun 2, 2008)

The Engine is out of my Pontiac Sunfire! Transmission separation is scheduled for tomorrow. Then... Waiting for the motor to arrive.


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## TX_Dj (Jul 25, 2008)

My very best impersonation of Mr. Burns from The Simpsons: Ehhhhxcellent! 

It's a great feeling when a plan starts coming together, isn't it?


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## rbgrn (Jul 24, 2007)

Very nice. It'll feel good when you get the new motor installed. Make sure to keep a nice photo journal of it and you can put the car in the DIY garage with the progress.


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## e_canuck (May 8, 2008)

Hey rfengineers. Congratulation on the startup.

You are doing my car of choice. But I am the other way around. Got the motor, waiting for the car.

I will be following your adventures.

A few question before I go.
What year, engine size 2.2 or 2.4, are you planning to make your own adaptors?

DP


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## rfengineers (Jun 2, 2008)

e_canuck said:


> What year, engine size 2.2 or 2.4, are you planning to make your own adaptors?
> DP


The donor is a 96 Sunfire SE. I got it cheap because the engine was knocking. It's a 2.2 liter with the 5-speed manual transmission. I will be making my own adapter and using a Warp-9 motor, no clutch. I started an album: <http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/album.php?albumid=21>


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## rfengineers (Jun 2, 2008)

*More Progress! The motor is here!*

It's here! I had to drive 320 miles to get it, but it's here! The motor is here!

Oh yeah, here it is: http://www.rfsoftware.com/DIY/TheMotor.png


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## rfengineers (Jun 2, 2008)

*More Sunfire Progress*

Slow but steady progress! 
The motor and transmission are in except for the last motor mount. That gets picked up from the welder tonight.
Changed the right-side ball-joint today.
Batteries are due in next week and the controller is due the week after that.

New pictures are in the album:http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums...php?albumid=21


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## TX_Dj (Jul 25, 2008)

Coming along quite nicely! Thanks for the pics, it's nice to see what's going on!


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## rfengineers (Jun 2, 2008)

*More Progress!*

I picked up the battery today. 10 x 12V @ 155Ahr, plus a 38Ahr accessory battery. My poor truck is riding low with 875-lbs of battery in the back, what is the poor little car going to do with all that weight!


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## rbgrn (Jul 24, 2007)

Dusing put some racing springs on the back of his S-10 and adjusted the height to compensate for the extra weight. I bet you could do the same.


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## TX_Dj (Jul 25, 2008)

*Re: More Progress!*

Hopefully the weight is better distributed in your car than when hauling them in the truck. 

Still, helper springs/coil-overs/something like that may be necessary.


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## rfengineers (Jun 2, 2008)

The A/C compressor is mounted and we are getting started on the battery boxes. New pictures posted at: 

http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/album.php?albumid=21

The ship date for my Logisystem controller slipped another three weeks so I canceled it and bought a Curtis. The ship date for the Curtis was "later this afternoon."

I've been asked to bring the car (incomplete) to two shows this month. It amazes me how much interest there is in a car that is not even finished!


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## TelnetManta (Jun 5, 2008)

Okay, NO FAIR!, I need to see more pics of how you mounted the A/C compressor.  


While I have my car apart this weekend I want to see if I can sole that mystery on my own car. Gonna need A/C. Can you post moredetailed shots of how the mount works?


Ben




rfengineers said:


> The A/C compressor is mounted and we are getting started on the battery boxes. New pictures posted at:
> 
> http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/album.php?albumid=21
> 
> ...


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## rfengineers (Jun 2, 2008)

TelnetManta said:


> Okay, NO FAIR!, I need to see more pics of how you mounted the A/C compressor.


Ok, I put some pictures on line at:

http://www.rfsoftware.com/DIY/AC/

Joe


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## e_canuck (May 8, 2008)

Hi Joe.

The front battery tray is close to what I imagined looking at my own sunfire. A three tiered box.

You only have 8 batteries and one accessory on your picture. Your battery racks looks to big. Are you getting more?

I just had my car weight and I figure 8 x T-1275 ( @ 82Lbs )will get me close to maximum.

The A/C bracket I didn't see like that. But the location is bang on.

I want to see how you get the belt tightened. What is that thing dangling below the tail shaft?

Thank you for the pictures.

Take care,

DP


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## rfengineers (Jun 2, 2008)

e_canuck said:


> You only have 8 batteries and one accessory on your picture. Your battery racks looks to big. Are you getting more?


There are two more not in the picture, they are on the charger. I am cycling each battery on the 12V charger, two per day, to keep them charged.



e_canuck said:


> The A/C bracket I didn't see like that. But the location is bang on.


The bracket can be seen in the pictures at:
http://www.rfsoftware.com/DIY/AC/




e_canuck said:


> I want to see how you get the belt tightened.


We are going to try to fit a belt and adjust it with shims. If that doesn't work we have all winter to figure out something else, an idler pulley perhaps. 



e_canuck said:


> What is that thing dangling below the tail shaft?


I'm not sure what thing you mean. Which picture?

Joe


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## e_canuck (May 8, 2008)

Thanks joe.

That thing under the tail shaft.









For tightening maybe you can use a variation on this thing.
http://www.fierosails.com/belt.html

Take care,

DP


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## TelnetManta (Jun 5, 2008)

e_canuck said:


> What is that thing dangling below the tail shaft?
> 
> DP




It looks like either a lower engine mount or a drive shaft mount.


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## rfengineers (Jun 2, 2008)

e_canuck said:


> That thing under the tail shaft.


Oh, that is the lower motor mount. It's a dog-bone.

Joe


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## rfengineers (Jun 2, 2008)

Progress Update:

The Controller, Power Steering Pump, Vacuum Pump and Vacuum Reservoir are mounted. The front battery box is mounted but still needs paint. I've started making 2/0 jumpers to wire the battery together. We are working on the rear battery box now.

Here is a current picture with one battery sitting in the front box:

More pictures in my album: 
http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums...php?albumid=21

I'm starting to get a little anxious! I could be driving it in just a few more weeks.

Joe


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## rfengineers (Jun 2, 2008)

More progress:

We are now doing the final wiring. If all goes well the first test drive will be later this week (Insurance, Registration and Tags have been obtained in anticipation of the event).

Here is a picture of the control box before installation. The precharge resistor sits on top of the main contactor, the three relays to the left are Main Contactor enable, Vacuum pump, and Precharge. My homemade control board can be seen on the back wall next to the vacuum switch. The ampmeter shunt is attached to the conactor but can't be seen from this view.


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## DIYguy (Sep 18, 2008)

rfengineers said:


> More progress:
> 
> We are now doing the final wiring. If all goes well the first test drive will be later this week (Insurance, Registration and Tags have been obtained in anticipation of the event).
> 
> Here is a picture of the control box before installation. The precharge resistor sits on top of the main contactor, the three relays to the left are Main Contactor enable, Vacuum pump, and Precharge. My homemade control board can be seen on the back wall next to the vacuum switch. The ampmeter shunt is attached to the conactor but can't be seen from this view.


Hey Nice job on the control box! I may have a few questions for you when I get to mine.

Cheers.


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## rfengineers (Jun 2, 2008)

DIYguy said:


> Hey Nice job on the control box! I may have a few questions for you when I get to mine.
> Cheers.


Sure, glad to be of assistance.

Got everything wired up and fired up. The motor ran twice for 10 or 15 seconds each time with the car on jack stands. On the third attempt it was DEAD DEAD DEAD.

More news as it becomes available.


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## DIYguy (Sep 18, 2008)

rfengineers said:


> Sure, glad to be of assistance.
> 
> Got everything wired up and fired up. The motor ran twice for 10 or 15 seconds each time with the car on jack stands. On the third attempt it was DEAD DEAD DEAD.
> 
> More news as it becomes available.


Oh darn, my best wishes for a minor issue. One thing is for sure. . It won't stop u from achieving your goal. Its just another learning experience. 

Let us know what the fall-out is. 

Cheers.


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## rfengineers (Jun 2, 2008)

DIYguy said:


> Oh darn, my best wishes for a minor issue. One thing is for sure. . It won't stop u from achieving your goal. Its just another learning experience.
> 
> Let us know what the fall-out is.
> 
> Cheers.


Well, the motor checks out OK. I hooked it up to a 12-Volt battery and it spins smoothly. The controller is packed up and getting shipped out today.


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## DIYguy (Sep 18, 2008)

rfengineers said:


> Well, the motor checks out OK. I hooked it up to a 12-Volt battery and it spins smoothly. The controller is packed up and getting shipped out today.


Any idea what caused it? Hopefully you can positively identify the problem...


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## rfengineers (Jun 2, 2008)

DIYguy said:


> Any idea what caused it? Hopefully you can positively identify the problem...


The tech at Curtis says it's either an out-of-the-box defective part or a shorted motor. The motor seems to be OK.


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## rfengineers (Jun 2, 2008)

My wheels go round-and-round, my wheels go round-and-round!

The controller is back in, batteries hooked up and... it works, it works.

I had to come back to the office to do some of that that W**K stuff, but I might actually get it down on the ground for a test drive tomorrow. The test drive will be sans lights and a hood. I will try to remember the camera this time.

No amp meter, no volt meter... in fact, the instrument cluster is still out, so no speedometer. But I am really going to try to take it around the block before the holiday.

Conversion project #2 has been rolled off my carport and will be transported to the shop this week. That's the 1961 Sunbeam Alpine.


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## DIYguy (Sep 18, 2008)

rfengineers said:


> My wheels go round-and-round, my wheels go round-and-round!
> 
> The controller is back in, batteries hooked up and... it works, it works.
> 
> ...


Very Kewl! Do you know what was wrong with it or what happened?? It's always good to have the "cause" in hand.

Cheers.


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## rfengineers (Jun 2, 2008)

DIYguy said:


> Very Kewl! Do you know what was wrong with it or what happened?? It's always good to have the "cause" in hand.
> Cheers.


They couldn't find anything wrong. My best guess is I had a bad battery connection. I removed and reconnected all of my high-current connections and now it works fine.


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## rfengineers (Jun 2, 2008)

IT WORKS IT WORKS IT WORKS.

I just took the car for a 5-mile ride around town. COOL COOL COOL!!!

I hooked up a temporary amp meter and am using my gps as a speedometer.

I need to hook up the battery charger this afternoon and finish the instrument cluster modifications, replace the hood and headlights, hook up the air conditioning and I am done!! Hey, that's still a lot of work left to do... BUT IT WORKS!!!


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## e_canuck (May 8, 2008)

Hi Joe.

Congratulation.

How big was the grin? 
Got any pics? Vids?

Can hardly wait to see what you did to that cluster.

Take care,

DP


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## My Dog Buddy (Jun 25, 2008)

That's great news


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## rfengineers (Jun 2, 2008)

I put 7 miles on the car today. The battery voltage dropped from 125.7 to 123.5. My top speed so far has been 50-mph. The amp meter indicated 70-Amps at that speed on level ground. I am still running on the junk tires that came with the car and no hood or headlights, so the rolling resistance/drag is pretty bad.

I uploaded a short video to YouTube.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ymSOWPVnhag


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## PatricioIN (Jun 13, 2008)

wow... supercool! Congrats! Hope to be right behind you!


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## DIYguy (Sep 18, 2008)

rfengineers said:


> I put 7 miles on the car today. The battery voltage dropped from 125.7 to 123.5. My top speed so far has been 50-mph. The amp meter indicated 70-Amps at that speed on level ground. I am still running on the junk tires that came with the car and no hood or headlights, so the rolling resistance/drag is pretty bad.
> 
> I uploaded a short video to YouTube.
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ymSOWPVnhag


Very kewl! Way to go. Nice to see the video. How did it feel?


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## rfengineers (Jun 2, 2008)

DIYguy said:


> Very kewl! Way to go. Nice to see the video. How did it feel?


It's really a different feeling compared to driving my Subaru. Tons more torque. It's sort of like driving my truck, but without all the extra weight.

I drove with a very light foot because the batteries were not strapped down. Starting off in third gear I gave it just a little throttle to get rolling, then I hit it a little harder and she just took off. It's COOL


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## rfengineers (Jun 2, 2008)

I took the car for another "test drive" today. I couldn't help myself! Another 10-miles under battery power.

I think I have all of the bugs worked out of my precharge start delay. Here is how it works:

Turn on the ignition key and the vacuum pump starts (assuming there is insufficient vacuum in the vac-tank). 

Turn the key further clockwise (to the momentary "start" position) and release. This sends a "start" signal to the device. 

The precharge relay turns on and a 10-second timer starts. 

After ten seconds the device begins looking for another "start" signal from the key-switch. 

If another "start" signal is received (you twist the key again) then the main contactor closes.

If you don't touch the key then, after another ten second delay (a total of twenty) the device checks the vacuum pump to see if it is still running, if the pump has stopped the main contactor closes, otherwise it waits for either the pump to stop or for a second "start" signal.

If anyone one wants one just call or email me (see my website for the phone number, ask for Joe).


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## rfengineers (Jun 2, 2008)

I drove the car to work today for the first time. Um, I usually ride a bicycle to work but it was raining today!

The hood is on, the headlights are in, and I have four new tires. It's a nice looking car considering it's 12-years-old.

Left to do: Finish the dashboard electronics (I am still using a GPS for a speedometer). New paint.

Tomorrow I am taking the car to the University to show it off to a bunch of engineering students and professors.


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## PatricioIN (Jun 13, 2008)

congrats! very nice looking... is the windhshield thing photoshopped? I love the idea of people seeing/reading it in their rear view mirror! I'm designing vinyls for the side of my car now. I want to bring more attention to the fact that it is an EV.. the chrome lettering is just not noticed by most people.


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## rfengineers (Jun 2, 2008)

PatricioIN said:


> congrats! very nice looking... is the windhshield thing photoshopped? I love the idea of people seeing/reading it in their rear view mirror! I'm designing vinyls for the side of my car now. I want to bring more attention to the fact that it is an EV.. the chrome lettering is just not noticed by most people.


Thank You,

The Windshield sticker is real. We had them put on front and rear. We are hoping to get some people to hire us to do conversions for them. There is also a bumper sticker on the back.


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## engineer_Bill (Jun 24, 2008)

Good Job! 70 amps at 50MPH? Thats great! That comes out to about 170 Watt/hours/mile. That is less than the 200WH/m I expect to get. With 130 Amp/hour batteries you should get a range of up to 80-90miles. How did you cram those batteries in? What is the actual battery brand? type? part number?


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## rfengineers (Jun 2, 2008)

engineer_Bill said:


> Good Job! 70 amps at 50MPH? Thats great! That comes out to about 170 Watt/hours/mile. That is less than the 200WH/m I expect to get. With 130 Amp/hour batteries you should get a range of up to 80-90miles. How did you cram those batteries in? What is the actual battery brand? type? part number?


It was quite a job to get the batteries in. We used up all of the trunk space and had to do some sheet metal work in the front.

I have only put about 40 miles on the car so far. I want to gather a lot more experimental data before I declare the range to be "X" miles.

We still have a usable back seat. I put two adults in the back and two in the front. The car still rode well, but you could really feel the loss in performance.

The batteries are US-12V-XC, 155AHr at 20-hours.


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## rfengineers (Jun 2, 2008)

Here is an update:

I drove the car 20.1 miles yesterday, mostly around town. Max speed was 40mph. I recharged last night through my Kill-a-Watt meter. The car took 13.1kWhr to fully recharge. I don't know what the efficiency of my charger is or how much power was lost to heat, but my operating cost for that 20-mile day worked out to about 652Whr/Mile.

This morning was my first "High-Speed" test. I ran the car at 65mph for ten miles. At the beginning of the run the controller was 53-degrees, at the end it was up to 72-degrees (Fahrenheit). The car had LOTS more power left, but I did not want to push it past 65 just yet.

The approximate current draw to maintain speed on level ground was:
45mph 70-Amps
55mph 130-Amps
65mph 200-Amps

Wow this is fun.

On the way back from my High-Speed test I stopped at Harbor Freight to look around, it took me 30-minutes to get to the store because everyone wanted to look at the car.


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## PatricioIN (Jun 13, 2008)

what an amazing difference temperature makes on range.. we finished our cars at about the same time and you have 12v batts.. I have 8v batts (which should get better range) and you are getting a much better range than me so far! Of course, only once has it been over 40degrees here as I've been testing them.

Good work.. Great conversion.


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## rfengineers (Jun 2, 2008)

I was driving the car to the office this morning when I turned on the windshield wipers. The wipers moved real slow, then the steering got real heavy, then the car STOPPED.

I got the car over onto the median, I was on a very busy 4-lane road. The car acted like the DC-DC converter was dead and the accessory battery ran down.

While waiting for the tow-truck a policeman stopped and asked me if I needed help. I said "No thanks, a tow-truck is on the way." He said OK but continued to stand next to my window. So I said, "Yes, it's an electric car." Well the next thing you know I have the hood up and the trunk open and was telling him all about the conversion and how things worked.

HECK, Even broken down I draw crowds!

I eventually got towed back to my shop, and after showing the innards of the car to the tow-truck driver, I found that I had a bad ground connection between the DC-DC converter and the chassis ground. Well that was an easy fix. 

The accessory battery was down to 8.5Volts, so I put it on a charger and drove my gas guzzler to the office.

100-miles under electric power and so far only minor problems.


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## gerd1022 (Jun 9, 2008)

rfengineers said:


> Here is an update:
> 
> The approximate current draw to maintain speed on level ground was:
> 45mph 70-Amps
> ...


 
Just curious: is this current measured on the motor side or the battery side?


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## rfengineers (Jun 2, 2008)

gerd1022 said:


> Just curious: is this current measured on the motor side or the battery side?


Those measurements were on the battery side. It's an indication of how much power I am taking out of the traction battery, not how much power the motor is demanding.


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## rfengineers (Jun 2, 2008)

Over 500 EV miles on the car and no significant problems.

I really dislike the digital amp meter, so I am replacing it with an analog meter. I made a new meter face to match the analog movement to the 500Amp-75mV shunt.

What-do-you-think?


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## PatricioIN (Jun 13, 2008)

What sort of range are you getting regularly on this one? What is the average temp right now in your part of FL? It's been snowing and very cold here for quite some time! Much more snow than usual for central Indiana.


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## rfengineers (Jun 2, 2008)

PatricioIN said:


> What sort of range are you getting regularly on this one? What is the average temp right now in your part of FL? It's been snowing and very cold here for quite some time! Much more snow than usual for central Indiana.


It's in the low 30's this morning. The AM temps have been ranging from the mid 20's to the mid 40's. Typical for this time of year. Morning temps should move into the 40's to 60's over the next few weeks.
I have been driving mostly between 5 and 25 miles per day. My longest drive without recharging has been just short of 40 miles. I extrapolate a warm weather range of 45 to 50 miles to 80% dod. When the car is below 35 degrees in the morning I can definitely notice the resting voltage drop faster, meaning significantly less range. (the car is parked on an unheated carport at night so the batteries are cold). The sag also seems more pronounced. It's quite a bit warmer during my afternoon drive. The car is noticeably quicker in the warmer weather.


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## DIYguy (Sep 18, 2008)

Lots of snow in Ontario...lol


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## rfengineers (Jun 2, 2008)

DIYguy said:


> Lots of snow in Ontario...lol


Hey, What's that white stuff? Is that beach sand?


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## notnull (Jul 30, 2008)

First, nice job on the conversion. I would also like to applaud you on posting your Watt Meter numbers. I wanted to get a thread started on this so people have a realistic expectation of what it really costs for an electric. I have been driving my conversion for about 3 months and my average over that time is about 450Wh per mile from the wall (using the Watt Meter) versus about a 275Wh average per mile (cycle analyst installed in the car) just counting the energy pulled from the batteries. The charge process probably isn’t any better than 75% efficient, but I think a lot of the problem stems from the inefficiency of the lead acid batteries when it comes to delivering power at high current. 

Your batteries are 155Ah * 12V = 1860 Wh per battery * 10 batteries = 18,600 Wh.

You would be lucky if they actually deliver 60% of this in normal driving, so figure 11,160 Wh of useable energy. Divide by the 40 miles you drove and you are at 280 Wh per mile. However, when you charge you still have to fill the battery with much more energy then you got out of it. It probably takes 1.5 times the energy to charge it back up as it did to discharge it and then factor in that process is probably only 70% efficient.

(11,160 Wh * 1.5 ) / 0.7 = 23,914 Wh 

Divide this by 40 miles and you get 597 Wh per mile.

I don’t notice this issue with the A123 cells I use on my bicycle but it is definitely an issue with lead. 

Anyway, a long winded way for me to say I would love to see some guidelines for noobs that would give them some realistic goals. I think you can expect to get 2 miles for every Kw hour you use from the plug. This would be for the typical 3,000 lb lead acid conversion. I have seen more quotes on this site that indicate the car is equivalent to 100 mpg, etc and that is just not true for most of us. We pay a fortune for power in Tallahassee, 17 cents per kwh, so my cost is about 8.5 cents per mile. At two dollars a gallon for gas, you don’t need a very fuel efficient car to beat these numbers. Now, it does look a lot better when gas is $4 a gallon. The latest data I have shows the US average utility cost is twelve cents per kwh. So, at six cents a mile the electric gets the equivalent of 33.3 mpg assuming two dollars a gallon for gas.

Steve


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## DIYguy (Sep 18, 2008)

just a quick comment.... some chargers are not nearly as efficient as others. Some are power factor corrected, inverters.... and run at higher freq's with smaller transformers etc... just part of the equation....

cheers.


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## dtbaker (Jan 5, 2008)

notnull said:


> ...applaud you on posting your Watt Meter numbers.


it would be interesting indeed to see a thread specifically for watts (at the plug) per actual miles. I think there is a field for this in the garage form, right? be interesting to see if different chargers had different results for same battery packs, or similar cars, etc,e tc.

d


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## rfengineers (Jun 2, 2008)

PatricioIN said:


> What is the average temp right now in your part of FL?


Actual temperature range from the morning of February 4th to the 5th.

I'm having second thoughts about putting a heater in the car.


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## PatricioIN (Jun 13, 2008)

rfengineers said:


> Actual temperature range from the morning of February 4th to the 5th.
> 
> I'm having second thoughts about putting a heater in the car.


If by that you mean you may want to put one in, at those temps a simple $15 ceramic heater would be VERY adequate to keep you warm! And they have heat almost instantaneously...


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## rfengineers (Jun 2, 2008)

PatricioIN said:


> If by that you mean you may want to put one in, at those temps a simple $15 ceramic heater would be VERY adequate to keep you warm! And they have heat almost instantaneously...


There is no heat in my car. But I do have air conditioning!

It was so cold this morning, I actually saw solid-phase water just lying about on the ground, and it was not just dumped out of someone's drink cup! Amazing!


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## Jimdear2 (Oct 12, 2008)

rfengineers said:


> It was so cold this morning, I actually saw solid-phase water just lying about on the ground, and it was not just dumped out of someone's drink cup! Amazing!


Be carefull about how you toss information like that around, didn't you know global warming is occuring (he he). Your going to hurt Al Gore's
feelings. 

Jim


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## zig06 (Aug 3, 2008)

Jimdear2 said:


> Be carefull about how you toss information like that around, didn't you know global warming is occuring (he he). Your going to hurt Al Gore's
> feelings.
> 
> Jim


 
That does bring up an interesting question, which is when is all of that global warming stuff suppose to start kicking in? Last summer the west side of Michigan had a record cold summer and the past 2 winters we have set records for low cold temperatures and high snow falls.


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## rfengineers (Jun 2, 2008)

Jimdear2 said:


> Be carefull about how you toss information like that around, didn't you know global warming is occuring (he he). Your going to hurt Al Gore's
> feelings.
> 
> Jim


Ha! Mock Lord Goracle at your peril! You, sir, could be left behind when the starship arrives to carry the faithful to Valhalla!


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## rfengineers (Jun 2, 2008)

DIYguy said:


> Lots of snow in Ontario...lol


Hey DIYguy,

You still haven't said what you guys are doing with all that white beach sand!?


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## Bottomfeeder (Jun 13, 2008)

zig06 said:


> That does bring up an interesting question, which is when is all of that global warming stuff suppose to start kicking in? Last summer the west side of Michigan had a record cold summer and the past 2 winters we have set records for low cold temperatures and high snow falls.


Global warming doesn't mean that everywhere will get warmer, but the globe on average will get warmer. You may be freezing in Michigan, but we're unseasonably toasty down here in LA: http://cbs2.com/local/warm.temperatures.2.925315.html

Unfortunately, it is the extremes that will feel the brunt of climate change. The hot and dry places will get hotter and drier.


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## rfengineers (Jun 2, 2008)

Bottomfeeder said:


> Global warming doesn't mean that everywhere will get warmer, but the globe on average will get warmer. You may be freezing in Michigan, but we're unseasonably toasty down here in LA: http://cbs2.com/local/warm.temperatures.2.925315.html
> 
> Unfortunately, it is the extremes that will feel the brunt of climate change. The hot and dry places will get hotter and drier.


Global AVERAGE temperature? I won't touch that one with a stick that is anomalously longer than the statistical norm! Are you bucking for a seat on the starship?

But back to the purpose of this thread. I ran my charger through my Kill-a-Watt but I pulled too much current and it complained. I will need to check my notes, but I believe the two times I monitored it my Watts-From-The-Wall-Per-Mile was about 500. I could check again if anyone is interested.


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## zig06 (Aug 3, 2008)

rfengineers said:


> Global AVERAGE temperature? I won't touch that one with a stick that is anomalously longer than the statistical norm! Are you bucking for a seat on the starship?
> 
> But back to the purpose of this thread. I ran my charger through my Kill-a-Watt but I pulled too much current and it complained. I will need to check my notes, but I believe the two times I monitored it my Watts-From-The-Wall-Per-Mile was about 500. I could check again if anyone is interested.


Yea, I think "Bottomfeeder" needs to back away from the Fruit Loop, Crackers and Banana diet, remember "you are what you eat" and this "Global Warming Crap" is making you crazy (nothing personal!). Honestly why was the earth over 10 degrees warmer when the dinosaurs roamed the earth? Even better they lived for millions of years in those temps. 

Ok ~ back on track, I would be very interested in seeing your cost per mile calculations. 

Because in the end if I cannot justify the cost of buying and building a conversion, then I'm going to down grade it to a "someday it'll be fun" project. Because if I can buy a motorcycle for $2,500 that will get over 45mpg, and I can ride it hundreds of miles in one day then why would I spend the same amount on a conversion that can only be ridden maybe 100 miles every 24 hours?

And for what it's worth with all of my taxes and charges factored in, last month I paid $57.01 for 468 KWH.


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## rfengineers (Jun 2, 2008)

zig06 said:


> Because in the end if I cannot justify the cost of buying and building a conversion, then I'm going to down grade it to a "someday it'll be fun" project. Because if I can buy a motorcycle for $2,500 that will get over 45mpg, and I can ride it hundreds of miles in one day then why would I spend the same amount on a conversion that can only be ridden maybe 100 miles every 24 hours?
> 
> And for what it's worth with all of my taxes and charges factored in, last month I paid $57.01 for 468 KWH.


I get asked the "how long until my investment is repaid" question all the time. It's not a valid question in my book. While it may be true that an EV is less expensive to operate than an equivalent ICE. That is not a good reason to convert a car.

If saving money is the bottom line you might do better by purchasing a new Hyundai (or equivalent) every two years.

You should build and drive an EV because you want to, because it's cool, because it makes a statement. I've seen people spend small fortunes on 'pimping' their ride with all sorts of stuff that they will never "repay their investment" on.

While I agree it is a good idea not to "poop* in your messkit", I did not build my EV to "SAVE THE ENVIRONMENT" or to reduce my friggin carbon footprint. I did it because I have wanted one for a long time (decades) and I figured it was time.

*Yes, I said "Poop" I'm a grandfather, enough said.


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## Bottomfeeder (Jun 13, 2008)

zig06 said:


> Yea, I think "Bottomfeeder" needs to back away from the Fruit Loop, Crackers and Banana diet, remember "you are what you eat" and this "Global Warming Crap" is making you crazy (nothing personal!). Honestly why was the earth over 10 degrees warmer when the dinosaurs roamed the earth? Even better they lived for millions of years in those temps.


The earth has changed it's temperature over the billions of years it's been around. But, when the temperature changes dramatically it can have devastating effects on life forms. Are you seriously arguing that because the dinosaurs lived with a warmer planet for millions of years that the life forms that around now can do so, too?!? What diet are you on! I've heard a lot of bad logic regarding climate change, but that one is new to me. It's odd that you think that agreeing with 99% of climate scientists is somehow the "crazy" view. Good luck with that!


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## zig06 (Aug 3, 2008)

Bottomfeeder said:


> The earth has changed it's temperature over the billions of years it's been around. But, when the temperature changes dramatically it can have devastating effects on life forms. Are you seriously arguing that because the dinosaurs lived with a warmer planet for millions of years that the life forms that around now can do so, too?!? What diet are you on! I've heard a lot of bad logic regarding climate change, but that one is new to me. It's odd that you think that agreeing with 99% of climate scientists is somehow the "crazy" view. Good luck with that!


Dude ~ let it go. 99% of any group cannot agree on anything, so let's stick to the facts. Also pull up Google and search "10,000 Scientists" you'll find a petition that they signed debunking the Kyoto Treaty and Man Made Global Warming. Bottom line is that it's all crap science designed to only enrich Al Gore and his cronies. If you want to discuss this further PM me or start another thread. I personally do not like to mud wrestle pigs.



rfengineers said:


> I get asked the "how long until my investment is repaid" question all the time. It's not a valid question in my book. While it may be true that an EV is less expensive to operate than an equivalent ICE. That is not a good reason to convert a car.
> 
> If saving money is the bottom line you might do better by purchasing a new Hyundai (or equivalent) every two years.
> 
> ...


Well, when you put it this way, I can sign up for it. I do have a hobby of racing old dirt bikes and have invested way more than what they really are worth (don't tell the wife!!). And I do like the idea of getting back and forth to work for as little as possible. Plus it saves wear and tear on my V8 SUV. Of which, did you know that if you removed the cat you can get an easy 2mpg improvement? ~ very cool!  Matter of fact, you can remove any cat and get better mileage as long as there is not an o2 sensor beyond the cat.

So how about posting the results from your watts from the wall calculation?


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## Bottomfeeder (Jun 13, 2008)

So as not to further distract this thread (sorry RF!) I started a new one in the chit chat section. Zig, you can waste your time with me there.


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## rfengineers (Jun 2, 2008)

I took the car to the "Battery Beach Burnout" this weekend. Here is a video of my acceleration test:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9_eScKWOTJc


I was in good company with an electric DeLorian time machine next to me in the display area, and a Tesla Roadster in line ahead of me at the acceleration test.


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## PatricioIN (Jun 13, 2008)

that must have been very fun.. my car will only spin tires on solid ice!


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## rfengineers (Jun 2, 2008)

PatricioIN said:


> that must have been very fun.. my car will only spin tires on solid ice!


The really impressive car at the acceleration test was Steve Clunn's Datsun. Its got a Warp-11 and a whole-bunch-of batteries. 

I asked the DeLorian guy if he had the "Mr. Fusion" option. He said "...That's on a later model."

Yes, it was great fun!

Joe


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## Harold in CR (Sep 8, 2008)

I met Steve Clunn, and saw that Datsun, when I was recently in Florida. You are correct, he has a LOT of batteries in there. REAL nice guy, and spent nearly an hour with me and my questions.


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## rfengineers (Jun 2, 2008)

Harold in CR said:


> I met Steve Clunn, and saw that Datsun, when I was recently in Florida. You are correct, he has a LOT of batteries in there. REAL nice guy, and spent nearly an hour with me and my questions.


Steve is a good guy and a real friend to EV's and DIY'ers. I spend half-a-day (no Guam jokes please) with him before I did my first conversion. It was time well spent.


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## DIYguy (Sep 18, 2008)

nice video...thanks for that and the pics... very kewl.....


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## sarge172 (Apr 9, 2009)

WAAAAAAAAAAAAAYYYYYYYY back, about 8 pages and several successful runs in your Pontiac you said you had a Sunbeam Alpine parked, waiting to be converted. I've been following your posts and am emboldened by your success. Yesterday I bought a 66 Sunbeam Alpine that I'd like to convert to electric. This will be my first effort and, as you might suspect, I'm very interested in seeing what you propose and how your project progresses. 

Do you have a start date for the Sunbeam? Or are you enjoying your Sunbird too much to think about it right now?

Thanks
Jeff


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