# Motor Alignment



## major (Apr 4, 2008)

Hi e,

I'm no expert on transmissions. But I think some, at least, depend on a pilot bearing in the crankshaft. I've never been sure how that enters into the mix.

When mating motors having 2 bearings to pumps or gearboxes also having 2 bearings, without a flexible coupling, dead nuts should be strived, but certainly within 0.005" TIR concentricity and 0.001"/" perpendicularly. A good resource is ANSI Y14.5 Standard for true positioning and tolerancing.

Hopefully you'll get a member chime in who has experience doing it with a tranny.

major


----------



## e^2 (Jul 22, 2017)

I think those tolerances are a bit tighter than anyone could do by hand. I guess the best I can do is to measure things the best I can, draft it up, and then CNC cut it. The off center adapters don't seem to be good for much power and I can't find another way to do a clutchless coupler.


----------



## electro wrks (Mar 5, 2012)

Why are you posting the same question in different threads? For less confusion, you should stick to one thread. We need more info. Clutch, no clutch? Existing adapter plate(s)? Multi-view photos of all of the parts, including the transmission would be very helpful.


----------



## e^2 (Jul 22, 2017)

Different questions, same theme. The goal is to get a new motor in this previously converted car but I need help.


----------



## electro wrks (Mar 5, 2012)

e^2 said:


> Different questions, same theme. The goal is to get a new motor in this previously converted car but I need help.[/QUOTE
> 
> Generally, the questions are so closely related, you might consider combining them so we're not going nuts confusing them.


----------



## e^2 (Jul 22, 2017)

Looks like I found my alignment solution. Found the bolt pattern for the tranny! 

http://www.super7thheaven.co.uk/images/YBEnginetoBellhousingBoltPattern.jpg

I have this drafted in cad and hope to have it cut this week, somehow. I was having troubes finding the face drawing for the ADC 8" motor so I'll just use my measurements to place the bolt holes. This should get my alignment pretty spot on.


----------



## electro wrks (Mar 5, 2012)

e^2 said:


> I was having troubes finding the face drawing for the ADC 8" motor so I'll just use my measurements to place the bolt holes. This should get my alignment pretty spot on.


Probably not close enough. As Major alludes to, lining up shafts with precision(at least by automotive standards) gears and bearings is no easy task. Ask yourself: why would OEMs go to all of the trouble and expense of carefully lining up and machining the ICE motor block and transmission bellhousing for precision fitting dowel pins(as most do), if attachment bolts alone were all that was necessary to do the job? Also, let's say you were lucky, by hit and miss, in properly lining up the shafts when putting the motor and trans. together. The next time, maybe you wouldn't be so lucky. Without the dowel pins, it's very difficult to properly line up the two.


----------



## e^2 (Jul 22, 2017)

The google gods have heard my plea. I just found the motor dimensions! I'll use them for sure and get this thing centered properly.

I'll have to say, getting the specs and information on this project has been difficult. Is it because everything is advancing so fast?


----------



## electro wrks (Mar 5, 2012)

e^2 said:


> The google gods have heard my plea. I just found the motor dimensions! I'll use them for sure and get this thing centered properly.
> 
> I'll have to say, getting the specs and information on this project has been difficult. Is it because everything is advancing so fast?


OK, show us the dimensions and how you will use them to line things up.


----------



## e^2 (Jul 22, 2017)

Bell housing dimensions.


----------



## e^2 (Jul 22, 2017)

Motor dimensions.


----------



## e^2 (Jul 22, 2017)

Alright, this is the best an electrical engineer can do. If you would like to review and provide feedback, that would be awesome!

I should probably verify the bolt sizes on the bell housing and then change the 11mm dia holes appropriately.


----------



## electro wrks (Mar 5, 2012)

OK, Mr. EE you've got your X axis dimensions, but no Y's. And, no dimensions at all for the motor flange overlay? The thing with the unthreaded bolt hole sizes is that they need to be oversized to accommodate the normal tolerances of typical bolts. Otherwise, threads won't start. You might get cross-threaded threads. A general PITA. Talk to your ME colleagues. Because of this need for oversized holes, bolts alone are a poor choice for precision alignment. 

BTW the tolerances on the Cosworth engine flange hole placment drawing are +/- 0.01mm. Much tighter than misalignment limits that Major and I call for.


----------



## e^2 (Jul 22, 2017)

Can I not use the bolt shank to align plate to the bell housing and the plate to the motor? The bolts the previous owner used had no shank and the plate was a bit sloppy. Probably why the old motor appears to have a burnt up bearing...

I have a couple of people I can ask to verify the bolt holes. This bell housing does not appear to have any alignment pins so bolts is all I have. I used a chart to determine the bolt holes for the 3/8" bolts (0.406 - 0.416" so I used the smaller size).


----------



## electro wrks (Mar 5, 2012)

e^2 said:


> Can I not use the bolt shank to align plate to the bell housing and the plate to the motor? The bolts the previous owner used had no shank and the plate was a bit sloppy. Probably why the old motor appears to have a burnt up bearing...


Ok, you just answered your own question! Looking at the engine flange drawing. Near the bottom are holes "C". These are counterbored("c'bored") to 11.5mm. These are probably machined for hollow dowels (the mounting bolts go through them) for precision alignment. Talk to your machinist about using dowels in these holes. Since you're going to all of the work of CNCing a plate(s), using the dowels will save you a lot of trouble in the long run!


----------



## e^2 (Jul 22, 2017)

Thanks for notocong that! Maybe they took the pins out during the POs conversion, they are not currently there. I can sure add them in!

For full transparency, this plate will be cut with laser and I'll probably use 1/4" steel (maybe stainless). The dimensions are only for reference as the dxf will be converted to a gbr file and then fed to the laser cutter.


----------



## electro wrks (Mar 5, 2012)

e^2 said:


> This bell housing does not appear to have any alignment pins so bolts is all I have. I used a chart to determine the bolt holes for the 3/8" bolts (0.406 - 0.416" so I used the smaller size).


Here's the hollow dowels in the engine block:http://www.mwstewart.co.uk/images/cars/Ford/mk3frstrestoration/red_frst_12.jpg 
AIR the dowels are a tight fit in the block and a slip fit in the transmission.

This is at trip down memory lane. I did a lot of work on this family of engines 30+ years ago.


----------



## e^2 (Jul 22, 2017)

Thanks for the photo, that really helps. I was wondering how they bolted this thing in. I hope none of the tranny threads are stripped, but I think the bottom holes might be.

I'll have to look through and see if the newer transmissions bolt up to this car as well. Being that this one is 38 years old, upgrading might be worth it. Sure would be fun to put a "modern" powerplant from a 1990's Escort, but I think this electric conversion will still be a good time.


----------



## e^2 (Jul 22, 2017)

Got my pieces today! Thought I would share.

10awg mild steel CNC laser cut using the drawing I had uploaded previously. Everything fits really snug so hopefully I nailed this concentric shaft thing.


----------



## electro wrks (Mar 5, 2012)

I don't see how the pieces fit together with bolt holes lining up the plate. More photos? Also I think you mean 10ga not 10awg thick steel. That's about 0.135"(3.43mm) thickness. That might be a little thin for this application. What kind of resolution or tolerances can the laser cutter cut to? +/- 0.01"(0.25mm)? +/- 0.005"(0.127mm)? If it's the latter or tighter, you should have gone ahead and cut the holes for the dowel pins. It might have saved you from a lot of trouble later on.


----------



## e^2 (Jul 22, 2017)

Yes, 10awg steel. I have three of these that I'll weld together on the edge. I cut the bottom holes at 11.5mm and should pick up the alignment pins before I install. I still have to sort out the motor coupler.

So the motor will bolt to the plate and then the assembly will bolt to the tranny.


----------



## e^2 (Jul 22, 2017)

Alignment. So the plate has a big hole in the middle. That lines up with a centering part on the motor that pokes into the plate hole.

For the motor I'll use that 11.5mm centering dowel. So with those two things lined up on a $250,000 production 3 year old co2 laser, it should be as lined up as well as possible. But I will ask about the tolerance! I'm sure it is down to 0.1mm. I've used this before to do other bits and it has never disappointed.


----------



## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

electro wrks said:


> Also I think you mean 10ga not 10awg thick steel. That's about 0.135"(3.43mm) thickness.





e^2 said:


> Yes, 10awg steel.


"GA" is just short for "gauge", but "AWG" is short for American Wire Gauge. AWG is used for wire, and in that scale (defined by ASTM standard B 258) the gauge corresponds to a wire diameter or cross-sectional area - that doesn't make sense for a sheet. The gauge scale used for sheet metal is archaic, but still defined: 10 GA steel has the thickness that electro wrks quoted. I'll assume that's what was meant.



electro wrks said:


> That might be a little thin for this application.


I would be be concerned, too, about the sheet flexing - that would allow the motor and transmission shafts to go out of parallel, and their centrelines would only be concentric at one point (approximately where they pass through the sheet). Even thick aluminum adapters often have some form of ribs in them, providing more stiffness.

Three layers are three times as stiff as one, but one layer three times as thick would be about 27 times as stiff as one thin layer. Welding around the edges may help, but thicker plate would be preferable.


----------



## electro wrks (Mar 5, 2012)

e^2 said:


> Yes, 10awg steel. I have three of these that I'll weld together on the edge. I cut the bottom holes at 11.5mm and should pick up the alignment pins before I install. I still have to sort out the motor coupler.
> 
> So the motor will bolt to the plate and then the assembly will bolt to the tranny.


In my experience, welding material that thin(and even quite a bit thicker)in that manner, you're probably going to have quite a bit of warpage. I still don't see what registers you have, holes or machined steps(other than the one on the motor end housing) that properly line up the motor and largest plate.


----------



## e^2 (Jul 22, 2017)

The motor has a raised concentric lip on it. The transmission will have the factory alignment pins to align the plate. Is there any other way to align things? The bolts will only be used for clamping, not alignment.

I would only tack the plates together. I'm not going to seam weld the plates, just enough to keep them together. I'll bolt them all together before I weld to keep things aligned.

I'll look into a finite element analysis on this plate but I think it will be fine. The plate will be three sheets of 10GA steel. I dont see how it will be weaker than 1/2" alum.


----------



## electro wrks (Mar 5, 2012)

The maximum flex point will be on the large plate near the outer edge of the smaller plates. The stiffness of the stacked plates has little or no effect at this point. I understand the accurate alignment of the large plate to the trans. through the dowels(pins as you call them). And, the machined register(lip as you call it) on the motor end housing accurately aligns the motor to the hole the small plate(s)

The question is: how do you accurately align the small plate(s) with the large plate?


----------



## e^2 (Jul 22, 2017)

There are no small plates, all of these plates are the exact same size. I'll get it all mocked up and take a picture. So 0.42" of steel bolted to the tranny on the stock bolt locations using the stock alignment pins.


----------



## e^2 (Jul 22, 2017)

I got it mocked up and found a way to install it through the bottom (I don't have an engine lift).

A friend of mine is going to run an analysis on the steel. I'll hopefully have an answer this week. The motor hanging on the tranny doesn't flex the tranny mounts at all so I might leave it like this.

You can see that all three plates are stacked together. I took a measurement of the input/output shafts and my coupler can only be 3" long, so I'll have to tackle this problem this week.


----------



## kennybobby (Aug 10, 2012)

It looks great, and i don't see how you could have aligned the centerlines any better than you did by using the factory drawings for tranny and motor with the laser cutter. Welding seems an unnecessary risk for what the plates have to carry.

The alignment and balance of the coupling will be important--nuts welded onto a flange is probably not the way to go there.

keep up the good work and thanks for sharing.


----------



## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

Looks great
I would not weld them together

Get them all lined up and bolted solidly then drill and ream two dowel holes


----------



## electro wrks (Mar 5, 2012)

In your initial photos of the CNC laser cut plates, I thought there were 3 separate and unique plates, as shown . Apparently you were actually referring to the stack of 3 of the largest plates. This is something not readily apparent in your photos. Also, in the next 2 photos of the large plate attached to the motor and trans., it looks like you're only using 1 plate for test purposes, not a stack of 3. This made things very confusing. You really need to be clearer about what you're doing if you what our help.

Now that I know what your doing, yes, 3-5 small welds around the edges of the plates would be a good quick way to permanently clamp the plates together once they're cleaned-up, lined up, and bolted in place. If the laser cut holes for the dowels are clean and tight enough, you probably could get by with a light clean-up-to-fit of the dowels with a stone or carbide burr in a die grinder. As Duncan says, a reamer is the preferred tool for this operation. But, the hard dross left over from the laser cut might make this difficult and damaging to the reamer.

I'm glad the confusion is cleared up now. If the tolerances on the laser cut process are tight enough and the transmission and motor hole placement information is available, this would be great way to make these plates. Good Work.


----------



## e^2 (Jul 22, 2017)

Thanks. I only hope I have enough space between the shafts to get this coupler built.


----------



## electro wrks (Mar 5, 2012)

It looks like your trans. input shaft is supported well enough inside the trans. not to have a pilot bearing. So one clearance option is to trim the input shaft back with a cutoff wheel. Make sure at least the same length of splines are engaged as the stock set-up. You could also trim back the aluminum sleeve around the shaft that the throw-out bearing slides on. Don't forget to wire brush the splines and put some lube on them. You may have to make a spacer(most people have to) with machined concentric alignment registers on both sides to move the motor out.

The mods to the input shaft might mean you'll have to get a different trans. if you decide to put a clutch in later on. The clutch makes shifting easier and can disengages the motor in a runaway situation.


----------



## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

electro wrks said:


> It looks like your trans. input shaft is supported well enough inside the trans. not to have a pilot bearing.


Good catch - there's no pilot bearing area on the input shaft. Unlike many "conventional" longitudinal transmissions, the input shaft appears to be one part for the whole length, so the shaft is supported by two widely spaced bearings.

This appears to be the Ford BC transmission. That Wikipedia page and Burton say it has a 20mm (not quite the same as 3/4") 17-tooth input spline. This is a nice simple design - essentially the simplest possible transverse transaxle. One-piece input shaft, one-piece output shaft, six pairs of gears (1 through 5 plus reverse and a reverse idler), and one final drive gear pair... plus the differential, synchros, shift forks, speedo gear, and just enough bearings (two per shaft).

A version of the gearset is shown by Quaife (it's their racing set, but the arrangement is the same). This another image - the input shaft is the one lower in the photo:











electro wrks said:


> So one clearance option is to trim the input shaft back with a cutoff wheel. Make sure at least the same length of splines are engaged as the stock set-up.


That makes sense: the stock splined area is long enough to allow the clutch disk to float axially due to clutch disengagement and wear, and that won't be needed with the direct coupler.


----------



## e^2 (Jul 22, 2017)

electro wrks said:


> It looks like your trans. input shaft is supported well enough inside the trans. not to have a pilot bearing. So one clearance option is to trim the input shaft back with a cutoff wheel.
> 
> The clutch makes shifting easier and can disengages the motor in a runaway situation.



My trans is the BC4 (first in a line of the BC series) and lacks the throw-out bearing that is common in other cars. My input shaft was cut flush from the factory.

I had a talk with an older EV DIY'er and he said that when you have a runaway controller scenario, you cause far more damage by letting the motor spin up. The motor can come apart and when it does, it can do series damage to the battery pack. So I'll just run a stiff rod from my breaker through the firewall like an old choke cable. Any problems and I'll just give it a yank.



brian_ said:


> This appears to be the Ford BC transmission. That Wikipedia page and Burton say it has a 20mm (not quite the same as 3/4") 17-tooth input spline.


Yes, you're correct. However, i was looking for a new clutch out of an Escort or something to get a new trans spline but it appears that ford increased the spline count to 18 for some of their larger motors. The motor coupler that came with the car is a little worn, probably due to the miss-alignment. It should be fine for my use but I'll be sure to set it deep on the input shaft to make sure I have good engagement.

Thanks for the advice guys! I'm almost there...


----------



## e^2 (Jul 22, 2017)

I believe this is as close to perfect concentric alignment as possible. The spline bit was pressed over an aluminum bar and then the outside was milled to be a slight press fit to the laser cut flange. The entire assembly is show in the second picture. Tomorrow I'll get it bolted and then welded together. I need to verify the depth is okay to fit between the motor and transmission first.


----------



## electro wrks (Mar 5, 2012)

e^2 said:


> I believe this is as close to perfect concentric alignment as possible. The spline bit was pressed over an aluminum bar and then the outside was milled to be a slight press fit to the laser cut flange. The entire assembly is show in the second picture. Tomorrow I'll get it bolted and then welded together. I need to verify the depth is okay to fit between the motor and transmission first.


What's the latest with your new motor/transmission set-up? Is it fitting together well?


----------



## e^2 (Jul 22, 2017)

Well, the coupler ended up being to long. So I cut the adapter back and cut the support on the tranny. It should fit now so hopefully this weekend I can drive it. Fingers crossed!


----------



## e^2 (Jul 22, 2017)

Sorry, had to cut the coupler back. I spun the motor on 12V and then cut it with a cutoff wheel, then finished it off with the hack saw shown. I'll post a picture with it in there after the cut.


----------



## electro wrks (Mar 5, 2012)

If the spline and motor shaft bore are concentric enough on your coupling and your still having problems sliding the adapter plate/motor and trans. together with good fitting dowels, you might try adjustable offset dowels similar to these:http://www.manciniracing.com/ofdowpac.html ICE motor swappers use them to correct minor engine/ bellhousing alignment problems. You might find some for your vehicle or do some lathe work to make your own, or modify some existing ones


----------



## e^2 (Jul 22, 2017)

Pretty fancy bits there. I got some aluminum tub and spun it on a drill and then used sandpaper to get it to a snug fit on the bell housing. Should be as aligned as possible. We'll find out tomorrow how it does.


----------



## kennybobby (Aug 10, 2012)

The coupler is nice looking and hopefully it will all work out for you.

i don't care for the use of all those washers with nuts and bolts, but you have to do what needs to be done. 

The washers add an element that can be offset from the center causing mass imbalance. There is no need to put a flat washer under the head of a bolt, and a lock washer is not needed with a lock nut. And the lock washer gets flattened and distorted and moves under the nut which adds to mass offset. It may be small amounts of offset, but that is what you were trying to eliminate by making precision plates to ensure a concentric alignment.

You may get some vibration, but hopefully not, or small enough not to be an issue.


----------



## e^2 (Jul 22, 2017)

I was thinking about that too. These washers are very sloppy so I snugged up the bolts and then tapped the washers with the ratchet to push them all to the inside.

The split washers just added another level of safety for me. Since I had to take this apart to cut the adapter down, I'll leave the washers out. I still need to weld the spline bit to the flat part. That will happen today.


----------



## electro wrks (Mar 5, 2012)

e^2 said:


> I was thinking about that too. These washers are very sloppy so I snugged up the bolts and then tapped the washers with the ratchet to push them all to the inside.
> 
> The split washers just added another level of safety for me. Since I had to take this apart to cut the adapter down, I'll leave the washers out. I still need to weld the spline bit to the flat part. That will happen today.


Welding two parts like these together, I've almost always found there's some warpage requiring at least a light lathe clean-up cut on the face and alignment step (if present). Here's an extreme example: welding-up and machining a broken axle from an off-road piece of equipment (don't do this at home! This is off-road, slow speed stuff):


----------



## e^2 (Jul 22, 2017)

I need to weld the center bit to the flange bit. I'm going to start this morning, then I need to do some work on the chassis.


----------



## e^2 (Jul 22, 2017)

And welded. Three passes total. And I got my plates fitted for the dowels. Motor will be mounted shortly!


----------



## e^2 (Jul 22, 2017)

Lots of progress. Motor in, bracket made for the bearing. Just wiring left and to maybe reverse the motor. My motor is a CCW, is that looking from the brushed end?


----------



## e^2 (Jul 22, 2017)

Got the wiring finished up today! Just got back from the first drive too. Motor spins very well and has excellent power compared to the old motor. I get some miles on it this week and start the conversion to Lithium.


----------



## kennybobby (Aug 10, 2012)

That's Great news--excellent job replacing the old bits and stuff, and glad to hear it's working better.


----------

