# EV pays back for itself?



## PhantomPholly (Aug 20, 2008)

No oil changes, no coolant changes, no tuneups, no catalytic converters (cost me over $1,000 after the Katrina disaster relaxed the sulfur content rules; apparently tens of thousands of people had the same problem).

No trip to the gas station (trivial, I know) which also saves you a teensy bit of time (how much is your time worth?). Who cares about mileage - electric doesn't wear out. No idling in traffic. No hoses. No timing belt. No radiator to fail. No exhaust system.

Add all those up - multiply each by the probability that YOU need to attend to them during your ownership of the vehicle (some people never change exhaust in 250,000 miles, for example).

It will still take a long time to get payback, unless gas shoots up again...


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## PatricioIN (Jun 13, 2008)

For most of us, it isn't about saving money. It's about saving lives. EV's don't contribute harmful emissions to the atmosphere.


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## MJ Monterey (Aug 20, 2009)

Comparing apples to apples....

Since many of the cars converted have bad engines we need to add another $3k to the ICE setup for a replacement gas engine. I would add about $250 per year in Oil, filters, coolant and Tune up parts. Call it $5k to replace and maintain the ICE for 8 years. At 8 to 10 years with an ICE you will need to drop in another $5 to get it running correctly again

Per the original post the price difference for the conversion will be offset in less than 4 years. My bet is that fuel will go up some more in that time and your payoff will be closer to 3 years.

If you use LiPo's the apparent life is in the 8 to 10 year range. At that time if you need to replace them you will have been ahead of the curve for 4 years. The money saved from electricity vs. gas should purchase a new pack, especially if the pack has a lower price/Kwh (very probable). Or use the saved money to build/purchase another car that is more efficient and generates more savings permile than the ICE car.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

I think my build will be in the region of £10k.

In my current car I use about £3k of diesel fuel and about £500-£1000 in servicing and general maintenance per year.

A large chunk of that cost will hopefully be replaced by the cost of running the EV. However, I also have to factor in the cost of insuring a second, modified, vehicle for domestic and work use. 

I am not so much looking a the EV paying for itself, though I am sure that it will cover the cost of LiFePO4 easily, but I am looking for a step ahead in the EV stakes and mainly having a project that I am happy to play with that doesn't cost the Earth and cause it harm at the same time as off road driving did.

Pay back isn't always a financial value.


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

Stunt Driver said:


> Does anyone have better outlook?


I doubt it. What's your point?


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## Wiredsim (Jul 4, 2008)

I think MJ Montery has the right idea regarding the engine issue. If you only look at the 10k conversion cost your ignoring what you get after the fact, a "refurbished" car that will likely run for 100,000+ miles.

Your assuming you have something of equal value before you spent the 10k versus after the 10k. 

Try looking at it differently, if you approach it from having nothing in hand and then spending 10-14k what does that get you? Look at it from the EV standpoint:

You buy a used car with a bad motor for 2k(hopefully) and then spend 8-12k on conversion. You then have that car and will save on running costs going forward. Those savings may need to be used to offset the cost of new batteries in the future. You would benefit from the improvements in battery technology by doing so however.

Gas:

You spend 10-14k on a car (albiet likely to be a slightly nicer model then what you would have with the electric) and then drive it. You then have the higher running costs and maintanence for the lifetime of the vehicle. Those costs have also proven to be variable and likely to rise again in the future as the economy improves and opec loosens up in response.

Either way you need to look at the initial investment, then the lifetime costs and then decide what you would rather drive. I think you will find with LiFePO4 it is a lot closer to being a wash then what you are expecting.


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## Dave Koller (Nov 15, 2008)

Here is how I explain to people who wonder about my solar wind PAYBACK -
"It's in the HEART - not the pocketbook!"

I love the feeling that I have done what only we (on the forum) have done - and WE DID IT OUR WAY! - what a great feeling --- priceless!

Big "not to worry about $payback" grin here 

Dave


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## RKM (Jun 9, 2008)

Many good points have been made and I agree with these comments.

I look at my conversion as "doing my little bit" and having fun while I'm doing it. I know a few "car guys" who have worked on 60's and 70's muscle cars. Some people will put 10 g into an engine rebuild and another 10 into paint and body work. In the end, they have a nice, reconditioned car that they have enjoyed working on and are proud of. My budget is about the same, just spent differently. The diffence between a typical car project and the conversions we are working on is... (wait a moment while I climb up on my high horse)... a 69' Chevelle and its kind will do more environmental damage in 10 miles than a modern ICE will do in 100, and far more again when compared to an electric car.

I pay 6.2 cents per Kw and roughly $4 per US gallon for gas (Canadian dollar). My energy cost for driving on electricity will be approximately 1/6 that of gas. For a comparable investment as a rebuilt muscle car, I'll get a far greater return on my investment and I expect that the conversion will pay for itself in about 4-5 years. 

Financial return on investment or payback period is only one measure to determine if a conversion is "worth it". Being a bit greener, less dependent on a diminishing resource (oil) and being a part of a movement toward positive change is what I find worthwhile. I'll climb back down now, the horse is tired.

Rob


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## vpoppv (Jul 27, 2009)

For me, I am building my EV for the future. I am anticipating gas to be back to the $5/gallon range. When that happens, the return on investment will be a lot shorter. Then again, I don't plan on spending anywhere near $1K on this conversion. After it's finished, I can't imagine getting less than $1K for it if it sold: even batteryless basketcase electric cars go for $5K on eBay. And then, in this high gas priced future, I'll have the experience of having already built one. Might be a skill that could come in handy. Even if production EV's become a reality, there will always be a crowd of people that can't afford one and a simple conversion will be what they need. But really I think all this justification is silly: I'm building it just to say "I did it". In this world where I feel anonymous and work my butt off making $9/hr to be constantly in fear of wondering what bill is going unpaid, finishing my EV project will be something I'll be proud enough to put on my tombstone.....


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## neanderthal (Jul 24, 2008)

Another point: For those of us who have wind/photovoltaic systems (I know those have a payback period as well) the payback period for an electric car gets shorter.

And since us diy guys like to do stuff ourselves... Doing a photovoltaic setup if you buy the individual cells, solder, build and install it all yourself, you can save money on electricity and decrease the payback period of your ev.


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## AmpEater (Mar 10, 2008)

I spend $2500/year on gas already. When its $4+/gal it will be over $3000. Add another $500+ a year on maintenance (which I pay someone else to do because I find engines and their "something is wrong, replace stuff until it's fixed" lights to be so very, very frustrating)

Building something yourself is empowering. Knowing how to fix it is empowering. 

I can justify an ev after just a few years of fuel costs. Not to mention, that a gasser with a bad engine or transmission is just about worthless. An EV with a dead battery still has a valuable motor, motor controller, charger, etc. These things don't degrade every year like most parts (in theory anyway, in practice stuff breaks but I'm hopefull we're seeing a new crop of components built to last)

For me, it comes down to this; I like old cars. I hate old engines. Building an EV lets me rip the bad out and keep the good going for many more years problem free. No breaking down on the side of the road. No oil stains in my garage. No exhaust fumes leaking into the cabin. 

Either way transportation costs big $$. I'd rather spend that money on my own terms.


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## Coley (Jul 26, 2007)

Let's see:

My Yugo is just turning over 7200 miles.

My truck, that I use for business, gets about 12 miles to the gal.

Looks as though I have saved 600 gals of gas in that time.

600 gals of gas times even $2.00 per gal (remember $4.40 a while back?)

comes to a savings of $1200.00.

I built my EV for under $1000.00.

The cost of another license and liability ins is canceled out by oil changes,

transmission work and engine repairs to the truck.

Hmmm it would seem that it has already paid for itself!!!!

How about that!! Plus it is fun to drive.....


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## evlowrider (Jul 23, 2009)

Donor car $10,000
EV Conversion cost $15,000
EV Grin $ Priceless


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## dexion (Aug 22, 2009)

My situation may not be unique but no one has mentioned it yet.

Where I live they (dte) have a special plan for electric vehicle users. To "refuel" my ev it will cost me about 3.5 cents per kwh. My office will allow me to plug in for no charge so that cuts my fuel costs in half. The commute has me sitting around 250wh per mile so thats roughly with charger losses 1 cent a mile. Half that since I can charge at work and I travel for about .5 cents a mile. I figure I save 2500 a year on fuel (commute is 70 miles round trip and the ice car I have must have premium gas and gets about 22mpg.) THe cost for the donor car and conversion is $8000 I have insurance for the second car totals about $300 a year so thats a wash for not having oil changes etc. Just fuel savings alone at $3 a gallon (premium at todays prices) is a little over 3 years and just 58000 miles to recoup the cost of the car. I dont think fuel will stay low where it is right now even in 3 years. I think it will go higher. So if I replace my pack every year (worst case lead) fuel is still 3.00 a gallon I am saving about 1500 a year in fuel alone after that time. It is very possible to have the car actually pay for itself and then save me money which cant happen with an ice car. On top of that there is much less polution, less fossil fuel usage (coal here unfortunately) as well when I drive.


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## Salty9 (Jul 13, 2009)

I think in London (England) payback would be pretty quick. The Top Gear program (again,I think. I'm not too sure about anything anymore) said that certain electric vehicles were exempt from the daily use fee which seemed to be in the range of 16 pounds.


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## Qer (May 7, 2008)

In Sweden the gas price atm is about $6.50/gallon and the electricity is about $0.15/kWh. Needless to say I think it'd be hard to NOT get your money back.


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## Stunt Driver (May 14, 2009)

Thanks for all the replies, that does ease my sole a bit




major said:


> I doubt it. What's your point?


I like when things make sence, even thou I *very much enjoy* my EV as a project, as well as when driving.



PatricioIN said:


> It's about saving lives. EV's don't contribute harmful emissions to the atmosphere.


Being green as quite a big question because of batteries - not sure how green will be the recycling and manafacturing process for Lead-acid batts. And even of LiFePo - ugly chemistry. But if they last 100k - probably that's less harm then needed amount of gas. Still, there electricity has to be used, and where does that come from? 

I may not have much exprience with expensive repairs, since always had new, even thou not luxury cars. Last time it was Hyndai Getz, purchased for $11k and sold after 4 years and 60 000 km for $7k. WIth all the planned maintnances (including oil,belt,etx changes) - it's only $1300 a year. I didn't have anything failing. We have new VW Bug now, it was $20k new, with 3 years of paid maintnance, and i don't expect anything fail there as well. But my second car is 8-years old pickup, i'll see if that comes in different.


Also, about EV replacing costs of ICE car - I just don't feel like replacing car that I can use to go anywhere, with EV that has very visible range limit. Besides, my other car is a pickup that is very handy (but gets only 16 mpg... which helps my payback time!). My wife won't give up her Beetle ither.
It may be american approach, but I see EV as additional car in family, purpose built to commute to work, which is exactly what I use mine for. Commute to office and some minor shopping. So with addition of EV to my garage - I have yet another insurance payment, license plate payment and the cost of itself.

My employer offers free charging station so far, and I don't have to charge at home, so cost of my mile is $0, but because of my short commute - it will take me 3 years to offset conversion cost by savings in gas.


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

Stunt Driver said:


> not sure how green will be the recycling and manafacturing process for Lead-acid batts.


Hey Stunt,

Lead Acid batteries have been around for a very long time. They are probably close to if not the most recycled product on the planet. Over 99%, I think. Neat what a core charge does to get people to recycle 

Not too sure about these advanced batteries and recycling. I suspect a similar system will emerge.

And I guess my point is that few EVers are in it for the economic benefits related to daily driving.

Regards,

major


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## Stunt Driver (May 14, 2009)

Congratulations on 1000s post, Major!

Until EVs make economic sense - they will not emerge in mass production and use, that is my only concern.

BUT looks like it's not everywhere like that, gas in cheap mostly in USA??? well, then it's a matter of time.
What other countries have bigger gap between gas and electricity?




Range must be just enough to cover daily commute.
​


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## Stunt Driver (May 14, 2009)

Coley said:


> Let's see:
> 
> My Yugo is just turning over 7200 miles.
> 
> ...


I guess you don't count for all the updates, including GEL batteries here? 
I have built mine for under $1000 as well, but I don't think it won't require parts replaced after such use.


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## AmpEater (Mar 10, 2008)

Stunt Driver said:


> Congratulations on 1000s post, Major!
> 
> Until EVs make economic sense - they will not emerge in mass production and use, that is my only concern.


I think people buy on many factors other than pure economics. If it was solely money how many BMWs, Audis, Corvettes, Hummers would you see on the road? Despite being disproportionately expensive versus their utility they are widely produced and consumed.

The same could be said for new cars versus used. It makes alot more sense to buy a used honda for a few thousand, yet people willingly put down their hard earned cash for a shiny new car that will depreciate significantly as soon as you drive it off the lot.

EVs need only offer some advantage. Produce a car with unparalled performance, reliability, or "cool factor" and it will sell even if it does cost more.


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## mgold (Sep 23, 2009)

Some arguments are a little skewed. Yes, it does cost a lot to keep an ICE running for many years. Except many people don't even do regular maintenance on their cars at all. They think cars will run without replacing filters, coolant, oil. trans fluid, etc.! So adding those costs for what mechanical inclined people can do on their cars vs "Average Joes" doesn't make sense!

Consider that %75 of Lithium sources are going to Cellphones and Laptops. The rest goes to other uses and EV batteries. Lithium prices are expected to skyrocket over the next few years, because of increased interest and limited supply. The reality is that there isn't enough Lithium to produce enough cars to replace the amount of ICE cars we have on the road.


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## AmpEater (Mar 10, 2008)

mgold said:


> Some arguments are a little skewed. Yes, it does cost a lot to keep an ICE running for many years. Except many people don't even do regular maintenance on their cars at all. They think cars will run without replacing filters, coolant, oil. trans fluid, etc.! So adding those costs for what mechanical inclined people can do on their cars vs "Average Joes" doesn't make sense!


They pay for maintenance, it just comes in the form of a new headgasket because the coolant got too low, or body work because the bald tires didn't stop in time. No matter how you slice it there are costs associated with driving beyond the cost of fuel. If you buy a new car with included maintenance then that upkeep is part of the sale price.

With newer cars you have no choice. If that check engine light comes on for any reason you can't get your car inspected until you fix the problem (in NY anyway). 


And markets follow demand. If lithium prices go up then more will be mined, it just takes a little time for supply to catch up. You could have made the same argument about gasoline before it was widespread.


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## Dave Koller (Nov 15, 2008)

Would someone please explain to me the "payback" on a $40,000 SUV? Speaking of $ of course.....

Dave


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

I figure that if lithium is limited and not that clean then something else will come along for powering an EV. The basis of an EV will remain the same just the method for storing the electricity will improve or change.

ICE on the other hand have oil and that is very limited and isn't as easily replaced by another cleaner medium to run the ICE on, especially if the ICE is to be cleaner as well.

I choose electric because the foundations of the motive unit is better.


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## CroDriver (Jan 8, 2009)

mgold said:


> Some arguments are a little skewed. Yes, it does cost a lot to keep an ICE running for many years. Except many people don't even do regular maintenance on their cars at all. They think cars will run without replacing filters, coolant, oil. trans fluid, etc.! So adding those costs for what mechanical inclined people can do on their cars vs "Average Joes" doesn't make sense!
> 
> Consider that %75 of Lithium sources are going to Cellphones and Laptops. The rest goes to other uses and EV batteries. Lithium prices are expected to skyrocket over the next few years, because of increased interest and limited supply. The reality is that there isn't enough Lithium to produce enough cars to replace the amount of ICE cars we have on the road.


My "Lithium" LiFePO4 ThunderSky cells actually have less than 1% Lithium inside...




So Lithium prices shouldn't be something to worry about...


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## roflwaffle (Sep 9, 2008)

Stunt Driver said:


> Does anyone have better outlook?


Sure! Batteries are wearable items. IMO they should be included in EV maintenance costs, part of operating costs, so really in terms of a payoff, there are EV operating costs, consisting of batteries+electricity, compared to gas+extra maintenance for a conventional car. The question then is, when does the difference in operating costs pay off the conversion cost excluding the batteries?

Course, there are more problems, since a cost effective conversion depends on a DIY outlook and the levelized cost of solar panels, which could both vary greatly depending on rebates in whatever region. For me, solar panels are a no brainer since I would probably end up with electricity on average for around 3c/kWh. Batteries, the only large wearable cost, are around 10c/kWh for storage provided I can let 'em drop to 50-70% capacity, so I figure an EV is at maybe 3c/mile operating costs for me compared to the average 30mpg car at ~12c/mile. 

Cuz we're looking at such low costs to begin with, it'll take 35,000 miles easy to pay off the cost of the motor/control/hardware, and after that it's only ~$1300/year in savings assuming 15k miles per year, so for most people it's probably not worthwhile going to all that trouble so save a grand per year. If we're someplace w/o cheap gas and/or better solar incentives, then it makes more sense when saving two or three thousand bucks a year.


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## Coley (Jul 26, 2007)

Sure, there have been some update costs.

The 72 volt charger was a good buy for $75.00 on eBay. I sold my 48 volt items and that helped pay for the new controller.

But, I got 4 of the 6 gels for nothing, from a friend in a wheel chair and I will be getting some more soon.

I am going to add 6 more batteries, so I can make the 24 mile round trip to my plater and local auctions, free from gas.

I go to 2 or more auctions a week within 25 miles of my home.

When I don't need my truck, I will be saving even more in fuel. 

That makes my income from ebay even better, when I sell the items brought home by my EV.

What is not to like about this picture?


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## 280z1975 (Oct 2, 2008)

AmpEater said:


> EVs need only offer some advantage. Produce a car with unparalled performance, reliability, or "cool factor" and it will sell even if it does cost more.


If I am not mistaken you would be describing the Tesla Roaster  ... $109K and it sells.

People also have to remeber those of us who don't live in America and pay WAY more for gas ... next year I am converting my 280z to electric. This is a car that would get 17mpg on a good day when it was tuned right. Considering gas here is €1.40(ish) a liter (that is roughly 7.80 a gallon USD). So to run my car would cost me about .45 cents USD a mile to run the car ... I was thinking of putting in the engine of a turbo diesel VW then running on waste cooking oil ... but after looking at all the alternatives I decided on electric. 

Also here your car tax is based on a number of factors, the main one is CO2 emissions. So my car would be less to have registered each year if it was newer (it's a classic car, so it's already at the 27 euro min.) but if it was a newer car it would save me roughly €250 to even €500 to have a car an EV based on car tax alone. 

One's payback on an EV will be different, but for *most* people it should be cheaper when you compare it buying an ICE car.

-Gregg-


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## tomofreno (Mar 3, 2009)

> So Lithium prices shouldn't be something to worry about...


 I attended a presentation from a representative of Western Lithium a few months ago and he made the same point. He said lithium prices will go up when demand picks up, but it won't affect the cost of cells much since the cost of the lithium in a cell is such a small percentage of the overall cell cost. 

LiFePO4 atomic weights: Li, 6.939, Fe, 55.847, P, 30.974, O, 15.999 (x4 = 63.996), total, 157.756. 6.939/157.756 = 4.4%. That is the percentage of lithium in the cathode. There is no lithium in the underlying cathode material, anode, packaging, and electrolyte, which comprise most of the weight of a cell.

Tom


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## m38mike (Dec 27, 2008)

Do none of you know of the tax rebates for building an EV?? The federal rebate, signed into law in Feb this year provides for a rebate of 40% of the cost of the conversion. If you live in Colorado, the state will give you an off-the-top deduction of up to 100% of the cost of conversion, and up to 5 years to use the deduction. Based on these deductions, within 5 years I will get paid about 120% of my conversion costs to do the conversion. That does NOT include the savings from operating the EV as folks above have described. In my situation I will get 80% of my conversion costs back from Colorado over 4 years. (80%-CO, 40%-Fed = 120% for me!!)

Check your state tax laws. Somewhere on the web I read that about 15 states have some form of rebate/incentive/deduction to encourage EV conversions. Colorado's is very generous.


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## dexion (Aug 22, 2009)

I dont actually know about the federal plan (aside from the 10% off the cost of a nev or scooter plus a rebate on state taxes.) Can you link me (google has failed me) to the 40% federal rebate on coversion costs please? And if anyone knows of a michigan incentive please link that as well I couldnt find anything that seems to apply to either my saturn conversion or the new lifpo4 scooter I bought this year. I will keep searching if I find something I will link it here as well.


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## Stunt Driver (May 14, 2009)

Same sht, only aware of 10% fed. Also Oregon seems to have up to 20% of convertion, but i'm checking on that. Lucky you, in Colorado! Let us know when you'll get the actual 40% back!




Dave Koller said:


> Would someone please explain to me the "payback" on a $40,000 SUV? Speaking of $ of course.....
> 
> Dave


If you talk new cars - compare them to new factory cars. In this case - Tesla, Fisker, Atera, VOlt etc.
For convertion, it's more appropriate to compare to buying used and fixing it a bit.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Regarding old lithium batteries, lithium cells are rather benign, lithium is a non-toxic material. Not to mention that a lithium pack that is down to only 50% capacity could still be useful for many years in a stationary setting such as a backup power supply.


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## dtbaker (Jan 5, 2008)

m38mike said:


> Do none of you know of the tax rebates for building an EV?? The federal rebate, signed into law in Feb this year provides for a rebate of 40% of the cost of the conversion.


I don't think so.... fed rebate it for PV, not EV as far as I know. SOME states have conversion rebates, but they are generally capped, and with pretty weird documentatio requirements versus purchase of a 'new' hybrid. But.... we can always hope.

I am going to go for mine this tax year, so we'll see what its like. I got my car re-registered as 'electric', as a first step, but NM doesn't have ANY physical inspection, so its weird.


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## Voltswagen (Nov 13, 2008)

Here is the Federal Tax Credit right from the "horses mouth".
Click on the link and scroll down to Conversion Kits (Section 1143)
The credit is 10% of the conversion cost up to a maximum credit of $4000.00 ($40,000.00 conversion cost).
A Tax Credit is not a deduction off income. It is an actual reduction of taxes owed.

http://www.irs.gov/newsroom/article/0,,id=206875,00.html

My EV is a restored 1977 Beetle Convertible. I plan on including the restoration costs in my conversion total. 
Hey...a Prius owner pays extra for the factory stereo, tinted glass, leather seats......and he gets to include those in his total cost....why not us? 
Include the cost of mechanical repair if its a late model or restoration if its vintage. Just save all receipts.


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## dtbaker (Jan 5, 2008)

Voltswagen said:


> Here is the Federal Tax Credit right from the "horses mouth".


*Conversion Kits (Section 1143):* The new law also provided a tax credit for plug-in electric drive conversion kits. The credit is equal to 10 percent of the cost of converting a vehicle to a qualified plug-in electric drive motor vehicle and placed in service after Feb. 17, 2009. The maximum amount of the credit is $4,000. The credit does not apply to conversions made after Dec. 31, 2011. A taxpayer may claim this credit even if the taxpayer claimed a hybrid vehicle credit for the same vehicle in an earlier year.
*
----


hhhmmm, and I wonder what a fair rate is to pay for the labor? Assuming you paid someone to do it of course.  $20/hr x 100 hours?

*


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## Voltswagen (Nov 13, 2008)

DT -
As long as you have a receipt..........I think $50 an hour is reasonable.
New Car Dealerships here on the East Coast are now charging up to $130 hr for labor. They all wear the latex gloves and I guess surgical masks are next!


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