# EV Component Compatibility



## Jordysport (Mar 22, 2009)

As above, i am struggling to grasp it, in terms of the Amp rating's, so my vehicle is a Single Seater Hill climb car / track car. Now i am planning on using the following components:

Zilla Z1K-LV Controller 
Netgain Warp 9" Motor 
Headway 38140S (300 Cells , 30s10p) 

Now i am looking at running 1000A peak (controller limited) now the Headway's can take 1200A continous and 3600A peak , now i could be on full throttle for upto 30 seconds MAX, so do i find a contactor with a 1000A rating for 30 seconds? 

Now i was looking at something like this for a contactor: http://evcomponents.com/cscart/index.php?dispatch=products.view&product_id=29799 

But could someone explain the specifications, and compatibility for my vehicle. Also on another note with breakers and fuse's i was looking at a 800A fuse but couldn't find any larger. 

now i am probably getting in a tis about nothing, so could someone set me straight. thanks (no doubt that will probably be major!  )


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## frodus (Apr 12, 2008)

Where are you getting those discharge numbers for the 38120S cells?

They're 5C continuous, 15C pulsed for like 30 seconds. (500A cont/1500A peak in a 10P configuration)

Are you mixing them up with P cells? 10C continuous, 20C pulse (1000A cont/2000A peak).


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## Jordysport (Mar 22, 2009)

frodus said:


> Where are you getting those discharge numbers for the 38120S cells?
> 
> They're 5C continuous, 15C pulsed for like 30 seconds. (500A cont/1500A peak in a 10P configuration)
> 
> Are you mixing them up with P cells? 10C continuous, 20C pulse (1000A cont/2000A peak).


There 38140S Cells, not 38120S cells..


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## frodus (Apr 12, 2008)

They're not available from what I've heard. Neither are the 40160's.


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## Jordysport (Mar 22, 2009)

frodus said:


> They're not available from what I've heard. Neither are the 40160's.


spoke to lorraine and they were when i queried it. but that is irrelevent as it will be a month or so before ordering.


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## frodus (Apr 12, 2008)

As long as you know they're not ready at the moment, they're in slow production making sure quality is met. They're ramping up production.

Now, back to the topic at hand:

I didn't know they spec'd 30C discharges on those cells.... I still thought the 12Ah were 15C pulsed. The specs I saw were the same as the 10Ah except for Ah. They're still 5C/15C, so with 10p, you'd get 600A continuous and 1800A peak pulse for short periods.

It still sounds like it would meet your needs, but you should keep the current lower, or put more in parallel.

How much energy do you need for a hill climb? how long does it need to last.


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## Jordysport (Mar 22, 2009)

frodus said:


> As long as you know they're not ready at the moment, they're in slow production making sure quality is met. They're ramping up production.
> 
> Now, back to the topic at hand:
> 
> ...


Lol, i think we are reading two different books. lol. 

http://www.aeva.asn.au/forums/uploads/311/headway.jpg

Says there they are 120A continious which means 10c cont??? 
so 1200A cont if 10p? 

but yeah the main question is, what do i do for contactor etc, as the Amp ratings on those are much lower. hillclimbs are about 40seconds-1 min. well i want as much power as possible tbh,


http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showthread.php?t=38989


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## frodus (Apr 12, 2008)

> Says there they are 120A continious which means 10c cont???
> 
> so 1200A cont if 10p?


not continous, no. 10C is peak. Those datasheets are a little wrong (lost in translation). Max discharge 12Ah cells is 120A, so 10 in parallel is 1200A, 15C is the max you can pulse them (1800A). They're still 60A continuous (5c), 600A. I'd maybe start thinking about the 8Ah cells if I were you. Since energy (range) is not really an issue, you want as many amps and as high of a voltage without sagging as you can. I'd strongly recommend the 8Ah 38120P cells.



> but yeah the main question is, what do i do for contactor etc, as the Amp ratings on those are much lower. hillclimbs are about 40seconds-1 min. well i want as much power as possible tbh,


Bubba contactor. You could use a Kilovac EV200 contactor with a 500A continuous rating and 2000A break capability.... but you may actually have to break it quite often, so get a large contactor that can handle the amps.


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## Jordysport (Mar 22, 2009)

frodus said:


> not continous, no. 10C is peak. Those datasheets are a little wrong (lost in translation). Max discharge 12Ah cells is 120A, so 10 in parallel is 1200A, 15C is the max you can pulse them (1800A). They're still 60A continuous (5c), 600A. I'd maybe start thinking about the 8Ah cells if I were you. Since energy (range) is not really an issue, you want as many amps and as high of a voltage without sagging as you can. I'd strongly recommend the 8Ah 38120P cells.
> 
> 
> 
> Bubba contactor. You could use a Kilovac EV200 contactor with a 500A continuous rating and 2000A break capability.... but you may actually have to break it quite often, so get a large contactor that can handle the amps.


Ah i c, ok Well i was planning to put them into my Saxo EV (non Performance) so it needs some sort of ability to be transfered, si u was thinking maybe having a Z1k then having an 800A fuse, Bubba contactor, Headway 12ah cells 30s15p (900A contin). and if/when its transfered i would have a 96v 180ah pack. 
sounds good?


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## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

frodus said:


> ...
> Bubba contactor. You could use a Kilovac EV200 contactor with a 500A continuous rating and 2000A break capability.... but you may actually have to break it quite often, so get a large contactor that can handle the amps.


Have you priced one of those Bubbas? IIRC, they are $1200US. I'd use two EV200's in parallel (of course  )


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## Jordysport (Mar 22, 2009)

Tesseract said:


> Have you priced one of those Bubbas? IIRC, they are $1200US. I'd use two EV200's in parallel (of course  )


Yeah i kinda did notice that.so i basically split my pack into 2x 96v 80ah packs and wire each to an individual Killovac contactor that way it will be alot cheaper, (if i use the new 40160 cells the 16ah ones) that would work out well actually as it would distribute my pack nicely. Thanks


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## frodus (Apr 12, 2008)

you better hope to hell they disconnect at the same exact time.... If not, and its in fault mode, you could really draw an arc and ruin the contactor permanently. Also, current does not share equally between the two, the one with least resistance will carry more current. 

It will work MOST of the time, but I wouldn't be surprised if he ruined them as soon as he disconnected under load.... because you cannot guarantee that they'll disconnect at the same exact time, and since they don't, you might actually see 1000A at one of the contactors when you would THINK they you are going to draw 500A each.


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## frodus (Apr 12, 2008)

Jordysport said:


> Yeah i kinda did notice that.so i basically split my pack into 2x 96v 80ah packs and wire each to an individual Killovac contactor that way it will be alot cheaper, (if i use the new 40160 cells the 16ah ones) that would work out well actually as it would distribute my pack nicely. Thanks


prepare to have two BMS systems.


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## Jordysport (Mar 22, 2009)

frodus said:


> prepare to have two BMS systems.


Ok, so if i used the MiniBMS as sponsered by this site, then that would just mean another $30 control unit. i don't really want to spend more than $2000 usd on Elithion BMS, 

Terra, do you know of examples of which this twin contactor setup has been used? and the risks involved. thanks


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## frodus (Apr 12, 2008)

Jordysport said:


> Ok, so if i used the MiniBMS as sponsered by this site, then that would just mean another $30 control unit. i don't really want to spend more than $2000 usd on Elithion BMS,


no, you need two full and seperate BMS systems. You would still need to have one board per battery, one control unit per series string. Since there's two strings, you'd need twice the amount of cell boards and twice the control units.


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

Tesseract said:


> Have you priced one of those Bubbas? IIRC, they are $1200US. I'd use two EV200's in parallel (of course  )


You find all the good deals. Last price I saw was like $1800


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## Jordysport (Mar 22, 2009)

frodus said:


> no, you need two full and seperate BMS systems. You would still need to have one board per battery, one control unit per series string. Since there's two strings, you'd need twice the amount of cell boards and twice the control units.


Ok, will have no choice then but go with the "Bubba", there are no other similar contactors on the market rated to the same ratings?. looks like my project is going to be over $20,000


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## frodus (Apr 12, 2008)

EVComponents.com has them for $1200
http://evcomponents.com/cscart/index.php?dispatch=products.view&product_id=29801


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

Jordysport said:


> Ok, will have no choice then but go with the "Bubba", there are no other similar contactors on the market rated to the same ratings?.


Hey Jordy,

I'm sure there are other big contactors out there. But they may be too large or more expensive. And the EV200 Kilovac is rated at 500A continuous (with 400 mcm cables). I think it would handle 1000A for 30 seconds. The chart on the spec sheet shows between 2 and 10,000 breaks at 1000A, depending on your voltage.

I'd worry more about the motor. You think it will survive 1000A for 30 seconds?

Regards,

major


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## Jordysport (Mar 22, 2009)

major said:


> Hey Jordy,
> 
> I'm sure there are other big contactors out there. But they may be too large or more expensive. And the EV200 Kilovac is rated at 500A continuous (with 400 mcm cables). I think it would handle 1000A for 30 seconds. The chart on the spec sheet shows between 2 and 10,000 breaks at 1000A, depending on your voltage.
> 
> ...


Yeah i am kinda slowly working through each component, now thinking about it i have seen people considering whether a Warp 11 would handle the 1000A?, but i have seen so many people use Zilla's but what is the point if your limiting it by your motor or Contactor, might aswell just get a cheaper Kelly imo. 

Whats your thoughts major, if i upped the voltage to say 156V how could i estimate the correct motor, or is that just down to experience. 

Many thanks All for your input i know it can be difficult with a noob (or someone who isn't an electrical engineer)


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## frodus (Apr 12, 2008)

Jordysport said:


> ... i have seen so many people use Zilla's but what is the point if your limiting it by your motor or Contactor, might aswell just get a cheaper Kelly imo.


Not exactly comparing apples to apples.....Get a kelly if you want, but if you want some decent performance, Zilla rules the field.


Continuous amps on a motor are much lower than peak, so most people that use zilla 1k or 2k only do that for a few seconds at most. Its all about heat dissipation. You're pretty much always going to have to match components.... most of the time, batteries are your bottleneck. A Netgain motor, zilla and some stout batteries are a good match.


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## Jordysport (Mar 22, 2009)

frodus said:


> Not exactly comparing apples to apples.....Get a kelly if you want, but if you want some decent performance, Zilla rules the field.
> 
> 
> Continuous amps on a motor are much lower than peak, so most people that use zilla 1k or 2k only do that for a few seconds at most. Its all about heat dissipation. You're pretty much always going to have to match components.... most of the time, batteries are your bottleneck. A Netgain motor, zilla and some stout batteries are a good match.


well i rekon i will be pulling maximum amps for about 20 seconds on each run, 
I was having a poke about on Cloud electric and there was a 1200A peak controller, which seemed odd to me and was cheaper than a zilla, should i not touch it with a barge pole? problem with the zilla is there are lots of extras' 

Headway 38120S (12ah) 45s10p (600A cont , 1200A Peak) 
Kelly KDHD Controller (Motor Current limit- 480A Cont , 1200A Peak) 

Could a Warp 9 handle that, i assume not.?


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## frodus (Apr 12, 2008)

Look at some of these vehicles using zilla:
http://www.evalbum.com/cntrl/CAFE

look at the kelly vehicles:
http://www.evalbum.com/cntrl/KELY

More motorcycles and small vehicles with the kelly. More higher performance vehicles with the Zilla. Lots of Warp motors paired with the Zilla, because they're a really good match. They're a good high power combo. You keep saying will it handle 1000A..... well, thats if you load the motor so that it would draw 1000A.... it depends on the peak HP rating of the motor, thats where you start.... not with volts and amps. Figure out what you need to get up that hill, do the power calculations, then work backwards. Don't just arbitrarily chose parts.

I VERY SERIOUSLY doubt that the kelly will sustain 480A continuous. They're well known for making grand claims and failing to live up to those specifications.



Also, I'd still heavily recommend using the 8Ah batteries. The voltage will sag far less and you'll get more continuous power. You don't need Ah, you need Amps. If you do 5C on the 12Ah, they'll sag below 2.9-3V, if you use the 8Ah at the same current, they'll sag to 3-3.1V or so. What does this mean? More power available.


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