# Group Buy AC Propulsion



## Bowser330 (Jun 15, 2008)

I read on in thread that 100 orders would bring down the price of the AC- Propulsion motor+controller+extras to 11,000$

Considering the power you get from it and the regen/efficiency....thats very close to the cost of comparable performance, siamese-9s and a Zilla 2k+charger..

Maybe we could negotiate that down to lower than 100 orders...? 

interest?


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## bblocher (Jul 30, 2008)

I'd love to have that setup. Sadly already purchased my motor and controller and still couldn't afford the 11k at this point anyway


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## etischer (Jun 16, 2008)

I would verify with AC-Propulsion before you get too far. That deal sounds too good to be true. I'd definitely be interested in going in on that deal if it is real. Our college had an AC150 in a saturn SL2. I'll see if I can post some pics. 

The motor controller also acted as the wall charger, so there is an extra 2k worth of hardware included in the box.



Bowser330 said:


> I read on in thread that 100 orders would bring down the price of the AC- Propulsion motor+controller+extras to 11,000$
> 
> Considering the power you get from it and the regen/efficiency....thats very close to the cost of comparable performance, siamese-9s and a Zilla 2k+charger..
> 
> ...


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## booksix (Aug 26, 2008)

Interesting... who has the specs that show this setup would perform on par with a siamese 9/zilla combo. Not doubting, just curious...


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## jwdsail (Dec 7, 2008)

I'd love to hear more about this... 

wow.. 

I will keep an eye on this thread...


jwd


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

etischer said:


> I would verify with AC-Propulsion before you get too far. That deal sounds too good to be true. I'd definitely be interested in going in on that deal if it is real. Our college had an AC150 in a saturn SL2. I'll see if I can post some pics.
> 
> The motor controller also acted as the wall charger, so there is an extra 2k worth of hardware included in the box.


I agree about contacting AC propulsion first.

And saturn SL2 powered by the AC150? you MUST post pix!!!!


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## jwdsail (Dec 7, 2008)

david85 said:


> And saturn SL2 powered by the AC150? you MUST post pix!!!!



Hear Here!


jwd


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## Bowser330 (Jun 15, 2008)

Saturn with AC-150

http://www.ecst.csuchico.edu/~ses/avrd.html


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## etischer (Jun 16, 2008)

Bowser330 said:


> Saturn with AC-150
> 
> http://www.ecst.csuchico.edu/~ses/avrd.html


yep, thats the car. I have a few more pics, but they were done with film back in 1998. I'll try to dig them up this weekened.

When I got involved with the project it was being powered by yellow top optimas, but I was told the car previously did have the Ovonic battery. The Ovonic battery caught fire due to over charging in Scandinavia. It resulted in a burned up hood. 

At some point I believe the car had a gas engine in the trunk. There was a bmw motorcycle engine coupled to a 3 phase generator in the barn where the ev was parked. The motorcycle engine had special fuel injectors, I remember they were using some alternative fuel. We also had a 25hp koller 3 phase generator donated, the plan was to make this into a towable trailer. 

The car didn't have much range or power because the Optima pack was pretty tired. It did accelerate just like a normal Saturn fresh off the charger though. The car used a Honda transmission with all gears removed except for 2nd. The axle half shafts were welded to match honda-saturn. 

The saturn brake master cylinder and vacuum booster were moved to the trunk. The brake pedal was replaced by a tilton brake pedal which pushed a slave cylinder, which pushed the original master cylinder. A diaphragm vacuum pump was used to power the booster. I believe this was done to free up space under the hood for batteries or maybe the ac150 unit. 

I remember the regen brakes working really well. We could probably lock the wheels up if we tried. Regen worked all the way down to zero speed, and the hum really got heads to turn. 

Unfortunately, there were just a handful of us involved with the EV and the original crew finally graduated and moved on. The project pretty much died, and the car was sold to one of the faculty for around $4k in 1999. The intent was for it to continue being a student run club, maybe it has since been resurrected.


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## etischer (Jun 16, 2008)

Brake booster and master cylinder were moved to the trunk. 

Sorry, no pics of the ac150, it was mounted under the front battery pack











The solar cell in the back window was a loophole to allow us to compete in the solar powered category =)




























The passenger seat tilted back and all the ac150 terminations and pot adjustments were made there.


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

Thanks, thats some cool info. I'm trying to picture how the relocated brake system works. Is there an extra master cylinder at the brake pedal up front to actuate the components in the trunk?


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## etischer (Jun 16, 2008)

david85 said:


> Thanks, thats some cool info. I'm trying to picture how the relocated brake system works. Is there an extra master cylinder at the brake pedal up front to actuate the components in the trunk?


yea, there was a Tilton brake pedal and master up front. I think they just needed a little more room under the hood for batteries. Seems like alot of work for not much payoff to be honest. We played around with the idea of having a movable fulcrum on the linkage in the trunk. So if the pack was fully charged, and regen was weak, we would adjust the linkage to make the brake force higher with the same pedal force.


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## Wirecutter (Jul 26, 2007)

Bowser330 said:


> I read on in thread that 100 orders would bring down the price of the AC- Propulsion motor+controller+extras to 11,000$
> 
> Considering the power you get from it and the regen/efficiency....thats very close to the cost of comparable performance, siamese-9s and a Zilla 2k+charger..
> 
> ...


*Interest???* Hell, yes! I thought the AC-150 was closer to $25-30,000, and that's _only if you can get it._ (BTW, my understanding is that's for motor _and_ controller) Note: The ACP website used to say this, but it's apparently been updated and it's no longer there. To paraphrase, AC Propulsion will sell the AC-150 only to bona-fide EV converters, manufacturers, or research organizations. If there's been a policy change at ACP, that's great news.

To be honest, it sounds too good to be true. I doubt ACP would go for it, but if by some miracle they do, I'll buy one. For that price, I could possibly justify buying an additional for a spare, but I'd definitely commit to at least one.

If we're serious here, we should probably have a designated contact to interface with ACP, and get a list of buyers together. 

Maybe it's an opportune time, with gas prices low and the economy a mess. The combination can't be good for ACP's business - perhaps if they're hungry enough, they can be convinced to sell systems to "the rest of us".

-Mark


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## Wirecutter (Jul 26, 2007)

Oh, and I don't mean this as any disrespect for the Zilla/Siamese 9 configuration, but for $11K, I'd take the AC-150 over the Zilla combo any day of the week and twice on Sunday. The elegance and simplicity of AC induction versus brushed DC is the first reason. There are a host of other reasons I won't elaborate on unless asked.

OTOH, the wheelie-pulling White Zombie is a hell of an endorsement for the Zilla/Siamese configuration... 

-Mark


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## elektro (Jan 1, 2009)

Im intrestes...we just need now 98 buyers.....
but keep me updated:


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## Stiive (Nov 22, 2008)

id do it, but to be honest i dont have much confedence in this deal.
Considering getting a siemens combo from metricmind atm


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## Bowser330 (Jun 15, 2008)

metricmind systems are overpriced in my opinion


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## Stiive (Nov 22, 2008)

Bowser330 said:


> metricmind systems are overpriced in my opinion


undoubtably, but i dont know of any other siemens retailers. I am still waiting my quote from metricmind, i think i have seen someone say its about $13k.
Know of any other retailers?


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## Bowser330 (Jun 15, 2008)

Stiive said:


> undoubtably, but i dont know of any other siemens retailers. I am still waiting my quote from metricmind, i think i have seen someone say its about $13k.
> Know of any other retailers?


thats the thing, i can be critical all i want, however, I have nothing to share with my forum friends as alternatives....

if you are electrically and mechanically minded you can try one of my other ideas...

http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showthread.php/save-money-ac-motor-controller-25808.html


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## Mesuge (Mar 6, 2008)

Thanks for the info & pics..
--

Now, speaking about the ACP deal, one friend of mine contacted repeatedly last year the company with ~1/3 of that suggested volume order. And frankly the response was polite but in effect zero (nothing), even not a rejection, lol..

If you look back at ACP's stated goals it was always focus on OEMs and lately low volume inhouse conversions (Ebox) and to stay away from diy people.

Hoewever, I think if you are based near their address in Cali. and you will visit them 5days a week and press, they might sell you one unit afterall.

With that deal of 500minis for BMW they certainly had to made some practical arrangements for "mass production" (Asia shop) so the 10-20k price range for high volume order is realistic, but only for OEMs..

PS Pls. note I'm not picking on ACP, I think they are the heros, albeit
boxed by their super product into a corner..


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

My feeling is that ACP should have used the volume order from BMW to allow them to manufacture an extra hundred or so to be able to sell them to the general public at a reasonable price. However the logistics of dealing with individual converters for support and such may have deterred them. It's easier and more profitable to send off 500 motors to BMW and deal with one person than to deal with 100 individuals and their different issues. Too bad really since the ACP package gives you motor, controller, charger, DC/DC converter, and other features you probably won't even need like smart grid interconnectivity.


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## Wirecutter (Jul 26, 2007)

I agree with JRP3 - it would be a great idea for ACP to extend the BMW production run and sell a few units to the rest of us.

I've also heard that ACP really wants to be an OEM and not have to worry about supporting 1-off DIY types. What about distributorships? Also, for years, it's been possible to purchase a motor from GM or Ford without buying a car, even though that's not their primary business. Cafe Electric (Otmar) did business for years sustaining 6 month lead times for Zilla controllers. It doesn't seem like a question of sufficient interest - there's a lot of activity and commerce in electric vehicles, and the AC150 is pretty widely regarded as hot stuff.

My guess is (and it's _only_] a guess, worth what you paid for it, etc, etc) this: In order to provide any support for integrating the AC150 into a vehicle, ACP has to reveal information about the drive that they consider closely guarded. With a big manufacturer of vehicles, there are non-disclosure agreements exchanged and lawyers involved. If the agreement is violated, ACP can sue the considerable resources of some big company and recover substantial compensation.

If *I* wanted to get involved, sure, I'd happily sign the NDA to use the AC150. But from ACP's perspective, if I violate, they can sue me down to dirt and wind up with a dollar amount that doesn't even hit the millions. I just don't have as much to lose as even the smallest vehicle manufacturer.

Having said all that, I still have hope. I can't imagine what "closely guarded information" would have to be revealed to an integrator of an AC150 - it's just a guess. Maybe they're worried about them being mis-applied and fried, resulting in a tarnished reputation for ACP and the AC150. GM and Ford don't seem to worry about people doing that with their motors, however. It's reasonable to assume that if you push it too hard, it's gonna break.

Guesses, guesses. Hey ACP - you hear any of this? Can you enlighten us?

-Mark


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

Has anyone actually tried to contact ACP and ask them about this??

Seems we could be assuming too much.


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## Wirecutter (Jul 26, 2007)

david85 said:


> Has anyone actually tried to contact ACP and ask them about this??
> 
> Seems we could be assuming too much.





Mesuge said:


> Now, speaking about the ACP deal, one friend of mine contacted repeatedly last year the company with ~1/3 of that suggested volume order. And frankly the response was polite but in effect zero (nothing), even not a rejection, lol..
> 
> If you look back at ACP's stated goals it was always focus on OEMs and lately low volume inhouse conversions (Ebox) and to stay away from diy people.
> 
> Hoewever, I think if you are based near their address in Cali. and you will visit them 5days a week and press, they might sell you one unit afterall.


 I have also attempted to contact ACP, and got nothing. Not a rejection - just nothing.

-Mark


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## sunworksco (Sep 8, 2008)

Wirecutter said:


> I have also attempted to contact ACP, and got nothing. Not a rejection - just nothing.
> 
> -Mark


 I would give them time to get over their helter-skelter production of the Mini-deal.
They will probably have their strategy planted squarely on the pavement by then and will be able to sell some lower priced kits.They are making much more profit now with their solely owned Shanghai factory and all the sales.Here is a photo of their motor/control/charger system.


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## sunworksco (Sep 8, 2008)

Just a thought.
You may want to enroll a group of friends into a EV club and sign up for an adult electric motor course at the local college or highschool nightclass.Try to talk with the teacher before enrolling and see if he will enroll the entire EV club as an exclusive group and build your drive-train there.Then ACP would be more willing to work with your group as more of an educational build than a DYI build.They have been willing to work with highschool automotive shops in the past.It gets them lots of press.too.
Here is the backside of the Tesla.Enjoy.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Interesting comment from Jeff, who actually got his hands on an ACP unit and is building an Attack with it and A123 cells:


> Sadly, it has become clearly obvious that AC Propulsion has no interest in supplying their AC-150 systems to the one-off or the do it yourself crowd. Although some believe they can simply order a system from ACP, this is not the case.


http://www.attackforums.com/showthread.php?t=2419&page=5


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## Jeff (Sep 25, 2008)

JRP3 said:


> Interesting comment from Jeff, who actually got his hands on an ACP unit and is building an Attack with it and A123 cells:
> http://www.attackforums.com/showthread.php?t=2419&page=5


Thanks for the link to the build John.

It's been away for paint and body work since the first week of December 08.
It's receiving some quality body and paint work by an out of state wizard in the paint business, and was estimated at 300hrs. 
Although it did run a bit over on hours, I'll be flying up to Portland Oregon tomorrow morning to do the acceptance before the enclosed transport back to Mesa AZ.

I wish I could be more supportive on the ACP situation. Others have tried to follow in my steps using the same platform and drive system, only to be politely ignored by them. Even when waving cash. And, I offered to proxy as their technical support interface -gratis, eliminating the drain on their resources to support these one-off endeavors. Oh well.

Like I noted in the build blog:
I reached unity with the price for a Tesla roadster months ago. And my wife thought I might have developed a gambling habit. 

If only it was so easy...










Regards, Jeff


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Well you can look at it this way, if the money was in the stock market where would you be? At least you'll get a damn cool ev out of it when you're done.
The ACP situation is frustrating, but seems to be a common denominator with many American motor and battery manufacturers. UQM seems to be the same, not willing to deal with individuals, International Battery doesn't seem to want to sell their cells, A123 may finally be coming around. I've never seen so many businesses less interested to sell their products


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## kingjamez (Mar 15, 2009)

So what is the status of this group buy? Think it will happen? I'd certainly be interested.

-Jim


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Not likely. ACP doesn't want to deal with the general public.


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## ehustinx (Dec 23, 2009)

Stiive said:


> undoubtably, but i dont know of any other siemens retailers. I am still waiting my quote from metricmind, i think i have seen someone say its about $13k.
> Know of any other retailers?


Hi,

The Siemens motors of the series 1PV513X are available through HEC (www.hec-drives.com). Please contact HEC for technical details and pricing.

Best regards,

Eddy Hustinx
HEC


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## ehustinx (Dec 23, 2009)

JRP3 said:


> Not likely. ACP doesn't want to deal with the general public.


Hi,

I don't know if this group buy is still something you and others are seriously considering. If so, you might contact HEC (www.hec-drives.com). HEC delivers Siemens motors/generators of the series 1PV5/1FV5. These are highly reliable devices, made for tough automotive conditions. The Siemens motors are very expensive in low numbers but price drops rapidly for higher quantities. MES-DEA inverters can be used for the mid voltage motors. HEC's new inverter type TI-9030 can be used for the high voltage motors (up to 200 kW). Price of both inverters drops rapidly for high numbers.

Best regards,

Eddy Hustinx
HEC


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## etischer (Jun 16, 2008)

What would be the price for a group buy? 

Say 300VDC, 45kw system (135kw peak) for a group of 10?

Is this roughly on par with the performace of the Ford-Siemens motor?





ehustinx said:


> Hi,
> 
> I don't know if this group buy is still something you and others are seriously considering. If so, you might contact HEC (www.hec-drives.com). HEC delivers Siemens motors/generators of the series 1PV5/1FV5. These are highly reliable devices, made for tough automotive conditions. The Siemens motors are very expensive in low numbers but price drops rapidly for higher quantities. MES-DEA inverters can be used for the mid voltage motors. HEC's new inverter type TI-9030 can be used for the high voltage motors (up to 200 kW). Price of both inverters drops rapidly for high numbers.
> 
> ...


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## ehustinx (Dec 23, 2009)

etischer said:


> What would be the price for a group buy?
> 
> Say 300VDC, 45kw system (135kw peak) for a group of 10?
> 
> Is this roughly on par with the performace of the Ford-Siemens motor?


Hi Eric,

If you are talking about the 5135WS18 Siemens motor: It has 260 Nm against 200 Nm for the 5133WS20 Ford-Siemens motor. I attach motor curves for the 5135WS14 and 5135WS18 at several voltage levels. 

Pricing: 6700 EUR for one piece 5135WSXX motor. Approx. 4000 EUR for MES-DEA TIM 600 inverter. For 10 pieces, package price will be approx. 9000 EUR. For 100 pieces, price will be approx. 7500 EUR. 

I don't like publishing prices on the internet, but I realise that you will publish them anyway when I send prices to you by e-mail.

Please let me know if this could be interesting. Official quotations will only be generated when there is a serious request.

Best regards,

Eddy Hustinx
HEC


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Thank you for finally posting prices, as you say they will get out anyway, so I'm not sure what the big secret is. In any case, at about $13,000 that seems a bit on the high side for most of us, and about the same range as Victor at metricmind offers. The 100 unit pricing is interesting but probably beyond the scope of a group buy. I didn't know that the MES inverter could be setup to run other motors. You should start your own thread in the vendor section with what you offer and all the specs, be easier to find than all your posts in other threads.


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## Jan (Oct 5, 2009)

Eddy,

I don't think your prices are very interesting. At least not for European byers. The TIM600 is for a lot less for sale:

http://www.electro-vehicles.eu/shop/details.asp?prodid=MES04&cat=0&path=48,63

That's exlusive 20% VAT. But still a lot less. And I got a quote for a MES-DEA 200-330W, for 3960 euro. Also excl. 20% VAT.


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## etischer (Jun 16, 2008)

That looks like a great price for an EV inverter. The description states it has a motor autotune feature. They even let you buy it without buying a motor. Things are looking up in the AC EV world. 

Ive seen it listed on a few other sites for around 2700 euro so I assume the price is real. 

Buying from Eddy may be more expensive, but you are also buying his knowledge, he has been working with Siemens motors and inverters for quite some time. 




Jan said:


> Eddy,
> 
> I don't think your prices are very interesting. At least not for European byers. The TIM600 is for a lot less for sale:
> 
> ...


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## ehustinx (Dec 23, 2009)

Jan said:


> Eddy,
> 
> I don't think your prices are very interesting. At least not for European byers. The TIM600 is for a lot less for sale:
> 
> ...


Hi Jan,

Concerning the motor: It is true that the MES-DEA AC motors are less expensive than the Siemens 1PV5.. motors. This is mainly due to the fact that Siemens is a mass motor manufacturer. The 1PV5.. series is a special series which are not manufactured in large numbers right now. The price is high because Siemens has a lot of manufacturing overhead for this motor series. The motor series is designed to be built in large volumes, so price will become very low for real high numbers. The advantage of the Siemens motors is the high industrial quality of a big Industrial multinational and last but not least it is 'made in Germany'. 

Concerning the MES-DEA inverter: It might be true that this inverter is less expensive from other suppliers, but consider the following:
1. HEC delivers all inverters with signal wiring loom, signal cables and power cables. It means less integration work for the customer and less potential failure sources. This has been succesfully demonstrated by the delivered Siemens Simovert/Simotion inverters in the past. 
2. HEC offers quick, uncomplicated and competent customer support. You know that a traction inverter has a lot of functionality, both on HW and SW. I know from the experiences with the Siemens inverters that customers will ask many questions about all kind of things. The average time spend on customer service must also be included in the purchase price, else one can't run a business. This policy has been used regarding the Siemens inverters in the past and I don't think it is wrong policy. 

Best regards,

Eddy Hustinx
HEC


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## etischer (Jun 16, 2008)

It looks like from the two graphs, the two motors are both 280A 300V. 
One has an extra 20kw at 3000 rpm, the other an extra 20kw at 8000 rpm. 

Has this been done before using a siemens motor and MES inverter? Have you got any pictures or video of an installed system? 





ehustinx said:


> Hi Eric,
> 
> If you are talking about the 5135WS18 Siemens motor: It has 260 Nm against 200 Nm for the 5133WS20 Ford-Siemens motor. I attach motor curves for the 5135WS14 and 5135WS18 at several voltage levels.
> 
> ...


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## ehustinx (Dec 23, 2009)

etischer said:


> It looks like from the two graphs, the two motors are both 280A 300V.
> One has an extra 20kw at 3000 rpm, the other an extra 20kw at 8000 rpm.
> 
> Has this been done before using a siemens motor and MES inverter? Have you got any pictures or video of an installed system?


Both motors are indeed specified at max phase current of 280 Arms. However, the rated battery voltage is different. The 5135WS14 is rated at 230 V DC. The 5135WS18 is rated at 300 V DC. The WS14 has the lower torque but performs better at high rpm. For the WS18, you need at least 300 V DC when you also want performance at high rpm. 

The combination Siemens 1PV513X and MES-DEA TIM600 hasn't been demonstrated AFAIK. However, the motor sensor interface of the MES-DEA inverter is suitable for the Siemens 1PV513X motors. I discussed this with MES-DEA. Regarding control algorithm, the MES-DEA inverter is able to control the Siemens motors. The motor parameters can be set manually, or one could use the autotuning mode where the inverter itself determines the motor parameters. Regarding output current, the MES-DEA inverter can do the required 280 Arms max. The input voltage range (up to 400 V) is perfect for the 5135WS14 and WS18 motors.


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## Bowser330 (Jun 15, 2008)

If this thread is really about a group buy for an AC Porpulsion (or like) system then I think www.hec-drives.com sells what we are looking to group-buy....

http://www.hec-drives.com/Specs Siemens 1PV51XX.pdf
This chart from their website shows that there are some VERY comparable motors..

The Siemens motor 1PV5135-4WS28
200kw @ 750V
450nm @ 300A
10,000rpm max
86kg (189lbs)


Generally how I have seen group-buys operate is that the vendor will post a thread dedicated to the group-buy, in this possible case: "HEC 200kw AC Group Buy"

Then within the thread the details will be told...
(1) How many customers/members will be needed to obtain the discount?
(2) What is the original price of the components?
(3) What is the discounted group-buy price?
(4) What is the delivery/shipping information?
(5) What is the lead time involved?

People will start posting their comments/interest/questions for the OP/vendor to answer and they will contact them and arrange payment where their name will be added to a list until the list is complete..


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## ehustinx (Dec 23, 2009)

Bowser330 said:


> If this thread is really about a group buy for an AC Porpulsion (or like) system then I think www.hec-drives.com sells what we are looking to group-buy....
> 
> http://www.hec-drives.com/Specs Siemens 1PV51XX.pdf
> This chart from their website shows that there are some VERY comparable motors..
> ...


I think your suggestion makes sense. The question is where in the forum this HEC AC drives group-buy should be posted to get maximum visibility; Any suggestions?

Best regards,

Eddy Hustinx
HEC


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Probably in the All EV Conversions and Builds section which gets the most traffic.


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## Bowser330 (Jun 15, 2008)

JRP3 said:


> Probably in the All EV Conversions and Builds section which gets the most traffic.


+1 

I agree, post in the area of the forum with the most visibility.


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## jimberry3 (May 11, 2009)

Hello all,

I came across your posts's concerning mass purchase of ASC150's. Have you purchased yet? If not We are working with a manufacturer to bring out a dedicated electric sports car kit car. I was considering the ACP 150 for the high end model. If you have not ordered and still want to, and if all of you that want to purchase will come forward my company Ethos Electric Vehicles can negotiate a mass purchase. Please get back to me at [email protected] if there is interest and please for the sake of actually making a purchase go through only those that are truly able to purchase reply and then I can get a firm cost and delivery date.

Jim


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Where are you located, how many units are you planning on getting, and have you contacted ACP yet?


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## jimberry3 (May 11, 2009)

I had not planned on buying yet, was going to be another 6 months or so and my first order would be on the scale of 50 units but.... if there were a group of 50 or more out there then my timetable would be moved up. I have traded emails back and forth over buying units but have not given them a firm order amount. A firm order is needed to even get a delivery time line since they do not have a plethora of units sitting around


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## jimberry3 (May 11, 2009)

Ohh and to answer your question on location, Our business is located on Maui, but I am on the mainland twice a month and I would take delivery at their San Dimas location and take them back to San Diego to UPS to wherever the buyer is at.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Have you gotten any indication of price? That will obviously be an important factor in how many might be interested.


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## jimberry3 (May 11, 2009)

I think this is a catch 22, Without an amount pricing cannot be accurate, If I can get an idea of the amount of people that are interested then I can haggle on price. I will call them tomorrow and try for a 50 count on complete drive systems


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## efan (Aug 27, 2009)

hey guys...maybe some of you have seen this or something simmilar already,...but I was really surprised to see an ebay ad for AC propulsion system...the price is quite high but if there is a group buy, they may be able to offer better price

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/150-...itemZ180555005962QQptZOtherQ5fVehicleQ5fParts


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

That's insane, I doubt they'd even come close to a realistic price in any volume, if they have any more.


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## efan (Aug 27, 2009)

I do not think that they have more units, but I taught that perhaps they have the connection with AC propulsion since they have already worked with them...just a suggestion..


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## IamIan (Mar 29, 2009)

I think they were just selling off the pieces of the EV they had in the X-prize.

http://www.progressiveautoxprize.org/teams/team-evx?carId=128


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

The specs show a 35KW motor in their Smart EVX. The ACP unit is more like 150KW.


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

JRP3 said:


> That's insane, I doubt they'd even come close to a realistic price in any volume, if they have any more.


Since they have the "make offer" option, I'm guessing they are aiming to get $25k for it, which is supposedly what ACP charges for new units. Considering how hard it can be to get ACP to sell at any price that could very well sell if some one is stubborn enough.

I can be stubborn but not that stubborn!


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

I'm tempted to throw in a low ball bid just for fun


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

Do it! LOL


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## IamIan (Mar 29, 2009)

JRP3 said:


> I'm tempted to throw in a low ball bid just for fun


Would be nice catch.

I put a $500 low ball in ... just for fun ... I am not spending ~$35,000.


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## JRoque (Mar 9, 2010)

and what's with the brown coffin/suitcase? For $30K you would expect a shiny high-tech piece of equipment and not something cobbled up like that. Heck for that much money I want a controller that includes a cell pack and a car.

BTW, they've been offering that package for a while so I'm not sure its remnants of x-prize gear.

JR


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## efan (Aug 27, 2009)

Hey everyone,
I just noticed that every thread regarding a group buy is either for lithium batteries or expensive AC system...why isn't there a group buy for say Soliton 1, or for Netgain motors...wouldnt that bring the price down?


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## efan (Aug 27, 2009)

hey,
yes these prices are in euro, but take a look at the discounts they offer...I imagine a group buy for say 10 units can lower the cost to every one? or is it unlikely?

http://www.ev-power.eu/index.php?p=productsList&sWord=soliton


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## x35jsf (May 12, 2011)

Are you guys still interested in group buy the AC-150? I got a quote Oct last year. The price is USD22,000 for a group order of 10 units, USD19,500 for 50 units and USD16,750 for 100 units.

Hope this helps,
AY.


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## cruisin (Jun 3, 2009)

*Re: Group Buy AC-50 Propulsion*

If anybody is interested in a group buy for the AC-50, I can help. With the going retail price of $4600.00 plus shipping, we could probably get that down to around $4000.00 in quantity's. One of the problem is that shipping is about $150 and the cost of using a credit card on Paypal is 3%
or about $120. If anyone thinks this is feasable and we have enough people, let me know at [email protected] and I will see what I can do with the manufacturer who I have a good relationship with.


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## x35jsf (May 12, 2011)

Is it a typo mistake or there is a new product AC50 from AC Propulsion?

The AC150 I talked about is an integrated 150kW drive system including motor, inverter, 20kW charger, 100A-13.V power supply, cooling system called for USD25,000, with the bulk buy discount scheme that I posted earlier......

Count me in if there is a 50kW system from AC Propulsion costing USD4,600 or Euro4,600.

Regards,
AY


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## steven4601 (Nov 11, 2010)

AC Propulsion's product is fairly nice. But it is also accordingly steeply priced.

What about the wavesculptor 200 ? I think it is a bargain.


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## cruisin (Jun 3, 2009)

Steeply priced? How about $4400 for the AC-50? Remember, unlike a DC system this includes just about everything you need except the batteries and adapter.
[email protected]


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## Brute Force (Aug 28, 2010)

Sorry cruisin, but this:

http://www.thunderstruck-ev.com/index.php?dispatch=products.view&product_id=97

is not the same as this:

http://www.acpropulsion.com/products-drivesystem.html


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

cruisin said:


> Steeply priced? How about $4400 for the AC-50? Remember, unlike a DC system this includes just about everything you need except the batteries and adapter.
> [email protected]


A dealer should know the difference between HEPVS AC50 system and ACP's system, which peaks out at 200 kw.


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## JRoque (Mar 9, 2010)

Hey. Hmm, I took Cruisin's comment as a pure sale pitch... something like "Steeply priced gotcha down, eh? well step over this way to the best deal in town" 

JR


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

That could be but it's like telling someone looking to buy a Corvette to come check out a Miata  Both nice vehicles but not the same market.


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## steven4601 (Nov 11, 2010)

AC50 and ACP150 are both nice. 
Think the corvette & mazda mx5 comparison fits. 

Something in between perhaps: 











(I was referring to the 60kw watercooled AC motor )


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## efan (Aug 27, 2009)

steven4601 said:


> AC50 and ACP150 are both nice.
> Think the corvette & mazda mx5 comparison fits.
> 
> Something in between perhaps:
> ...


beautiful...do you mind me asking what controller you will be using with this motor?


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## steven4601 (Nov 11, 2010)

I am leaning towards the wavesculptor 200. It appears to be a solution for my desired 300Arms motor current @ 400..420V battery voltage. (400- to 420V due to the required voltage to keep the v/hz curve satisfied at higher rpm's)


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## Jan (Oct 5, 2009)

Why not the TIM600, with 100kW peak?


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## steven4601 (Nov 11, 2010)

Not quite certain about that unit. You have experience with the TIM600?


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## Jan (Oct 5, 2009)

steven4601 said:


> Not quite certain about that unit. You have experience with the TIM600?


No. I'm also a bit unsure about the quality. Little users and a lot of problems. But it's cheap. And powerful. You should try it, so I can watch.


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## efan (Aug 27, 2009)

steven4601 said:


> Not quite certain about that unit. You have experience with the TIM600?


Maybe you can talk to some of these people:

http://evalbum.com/cntrl/MSDA

I have talked through email with one of the owners of a Zap car running TIM400 and he said that he was very happy with the controller.
here's what the owner of the red Mazda (link above) sais: 'may 2011 - upgrade to bigger STOJA motor and TIM600 controller. Result - real sport car performance!'..


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## steven4601 (Nov 11, 2010)

The Wavesculptor is twice as expensive as the TIM600, but hopefully cheaper in the long run.

I tried to find as much customer experiene about TIM600. Maybe there are 1000 happy users but I only found 3 posting their findings on the web.

1 Jack Rickard & the new Mini cooper had one, it blew after a (few?) drive(s). Now using a rinehart motion systems unit?
2 Stiive of Swineburne team has the weirdest of the weirdest scope plots of the phase currents and are failing to produce constant torque. He also popped a few IGBT's if im correct. 
3 7Circles popped IGBT's & other components (c snubbers?)


These are not statistics just it does not ease my mind.

edit: I think the TIM400 has been used in a small series conversion for Renault Twingo's. . Maybe its debugged 
edit2: I never seen that page of EValbum with the TIM600 which gives hope! Also I hope I can visit the electric Volvo 245 soon, its only a few km from me.


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## ElectriCar (Jun 15, 2008)

What's the reason AC costs so much? Industry has all but abandoned DC, which was the work horse prior to recent years. 

I want AC but I can't see the benefit of 3X the price of DC for a little more benefit. You can buy an entire vehicle for what people are asking for AC systems!


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

AC induction motors are simple, but the inverters to control them are more complex, and the programming is a lot more complex. BLDC has the added expense of rare earth magnets. Other than that....
Once we start seeing more production cars in volume I'd think we should be able to get our hands on some reasonably priced AC systems, if you can wait 10 years or so


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