# cost of/source for NiMh batteries



## rbgrn (Jul 24, 2007)

Please forgive me if I'm mistaken, but isn't the patent for large-cell NiMh batteries owned by Texaco who bought it from GM who bought it from the one professor/scientist who was interviewed in "Who killed the electric car?" I thought this was the whole reason they aren't really seen in EVs.


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## houseoffubar (Nov 18, 2007)

Robert, I believe this to be true. You can get F, and M cell nimh batteries from Rabbit tool http://www.rabbittool.com/, and D, and F cells from All-Battery.com http://www.all-battery.com/
I don't think any are cheap, but perhaps the best solution is (in my opinion) to buy several Prius batteries used from Ebay. these are between $200-1000, but the Prius batteries appear to last MUCH longer than the individual cell batteries available from retailers. Good luck, Eric


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

The lawsuit that effectively killed the NiMh battery applies to batteries larger than 16kwh, I believe, so basically only to batteries large enough to power and EV. This is the compramise that was reached that allowed toyota (and other OEMs) to build hybrids (which still burn petro-fuel), but not all out EVs (which can run on sunlight). To this day the rav4 EV from factory is one of them most sought after OEM EVs out there, and they don't seem to de-value, some have been resold for above the MSRP.

But there are acceptions to the rule, and I know of conversions that have used NiMh batteries that were sourced through SAFT, as well as at least one authorized distributor for ovonics corp (inventor of modern MiNh battery). 

From what I have seen, nickel batteries while being an improvement over lead acid, do not last that much longer, and are not very cheap compared to other battery chemistries like lithium iron phosphate, which are still under active development, and geting better all the time. And unlike nickel hydrides, there are no lawyers to get in the way of online prices.

PS, I recomend anyone interested in EVs watch the film "who killed the electric car", very one sided film, but all the facts are true......(like what happened to the NiMh battery)


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## MitchJi (Dec 14, 2007)

Hi,

You could check Nilar:
http://www.pluginconversions.com/phevs1.html

Plug-In Conversions Corporation is the U.S distributor for Nilar, Inc. NiMH batteries for PHEV and EV applications. Founded in 2000 and with facilities located in Stockholm and Denver, Nilar developed a patented membrane technology for bi-polar batteries that has enabled performance breakthroughs surpassing the standard NiMH chemistry in terms of power density, weight, and volume. Batteries are manufactured at Nilar facilities in Centennial, Colorado.

*Pricing…* Retail pricing for a single 24V 9Ah module starts at $250. A surcharge may be added depending on the market price of Nickel when the order is placed. At your request, we will configure modules into series packs for your application. Pack Parts, pressure switches, assembly, and testing are an additional 10% per module.
Please contact us for larger quantity discount pricing.

Best Wishes,

Mitch


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## KiwiEV (Jul 26, 2007)

Forgive me if I'm wrong (maths was never my strong point) but I'm currently running 12 x 12v batteries at 85 a/h each. My shoddy maths dictates that a replacement NiMH pack of the same size would cost about $14,400 US.
Is that about right?


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## BHall (Aug 1, 2007)

My RC experience with NiMh batteries leaves me thinking there still must be something better out there. All the while a grand improvement over NiCd, NiMh batteries will still die/loose voltage & capacitance just sitting idle. I don't race RC near as much as I used to and have tried to babysit NiMh batteries, cycling them etc. They leave a bad impression on me when a new "hot" pack goes to sleep and doesn't wake back up just because I got tired of cycling it every couple of days. I feel rechargeable battery technology is going the right direction with lithium. Some are claiming that they will hold a charge 80 days! They just need to hurry up and find an industry standard and start making them affordable. 

Brian


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

High self discharge was also a problem with NiMh batteries, lithium iron phosphate is said to only discharge 2-3% per month.

Mitch, are you a sales rep from Nilar?

The battery you show looks promising, but the energy density is a little dissapointing, at only 55wh/kg, lithium starts at 100....


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## Brendonbosy (Dec 13, 2007)

You could always just built your own pack out of thousands of individual cells. That's what I'm trying to do.

Personally I think NiMH batteries are the best we got out in the market today. They're reasonably priced, especially compared to Li-ion batteries. Some have very good power:weight ratio. They can last over 1000 cycles compared to Lead-acid's 500-800. They also have a long lifespan, usually 10+ years, making them far superior to Li-ion's short 3-4 year span after production. The only setback, the self-discharge, is a thing of the past. Last year, a new ultra-low self-discharge battery was created which withstood 80% charge after 1 year in storage:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nickel_metal_hydride_battery


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

Brendonbosy, you are correct about the short calender life of early Li-ion cells. Lithium ion batteries had a short lifespan in their first version. The tesla roadster will need a new battery after five years because of this, but other chemistries, and better polymers have pushed the calender life past 10 years, and cycle life to 1000-3000 depending on chemistry. This is how lionEV can offer a lifetime waranty on their battery packs.


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## BHall (Aug 1, 2007)

Brendonbosy thanks for the insight of the new low self discharge NiMh batteries. I was not aware of such a version of the NiMh. After leading me to this and a little research on the web I found some NiMh batteries that look promising. A company called AccuPower makes a line of low self discharge cells. They have a 10000mAh D cell for $11.98 each that looks as if it might work. Sanyo also has their line of eneloop cells but I have not found any D cells. I am loving the larger capacity values of the D cells. Does anybody recommend a larger packaged NiMh or is that what the oil companies shut down?



Brian


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## MitchJi (Dec 14, 2007)

david85 said:


> High self discharge was also a problem with NiMh batteries, lithium iron phosphate is said to only discharge 2-3% per month.
> 
> Mitch, are you a sales rep from Nilar?
> 
> The battery you show looks promising, but the energy density is a little dissapointing, at only 55wh/kg, lithium starts at 100....


I am not a sales rep. I found out about Nilar because Calcars put out some information about the Nilar kits for PHEV Prius conversions and I thouhg it might be useful information in this thread. Aren't your figures on energy density typical for NiMh vs Li-Ion?



david85 said:


> Brendonbosy, you are correct about the short calender life of early Li-ion cells. Lithium ion batteries had a short lifespan in their first version. The tesla roadster will need a new battery after five years because of this, but other chemistries, and better polymers have pushed the calender life past 10 years, and cycle life to 1000-3000 depending on chemistry.


I have a Sony Camcorder I purchased in 1996 with Li-Ion batteries. I hardly ever use it. The last few times I used it not only did the batteries work but they still had a charge!

Best Wishes,

Mitch


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## Gypsy (Dec 25, 2007)

Here is a place that sells LiIo batteries for a pretty reasonable cost. 
http://lionev.com/Battery_Pricing.html 
There main business is selling Accents converted to EV so you will need to contact them and find out if they sell just the batteries but the way they worded there web site it sounded like they do. According the site they are closed until after Christmas but it seems worth looking into. 
http://lionev.com/News_releases.html reports they have packs coming in at less than $400/KWhr. You'd still need a BMS (Battery Management System) but that will be necessary with any larger power pack. 
Thanks and good luck.


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

MitchJi said:


> I am not a sales rep. I found out about Nilar because Calcars put out some information about the Nilar kits for PHEV Prius conversions and I thouhg it might be useful information in this thread. Aren't your figures on energy density typical for NiMh vs Li-Ion?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Oh, the way you wrote your post, I wasn't sure if you were from nilar or if you just copied some of their documentation.

....anyway, the numbers for energy density are tipically 100-120 wh/kg for NiMh, and 100-200 for LiPo, although some Lipos are pushing past 300. With thunderskys being around 99 wh/kg, and electrovaya's superpolymer battery being at 350.

For me, its a toss up between thundersky (china), and lionEV (eastern USA), both offer good performance, and both could have their cost driven down considerably. With LionEV offering a wide range of batteries, and TS offering a solid performing mid range battery that, in theory at least, could be cheaper than lead acid (big volume pricing).

But the main reasons for me, are that they will return Email inquiries, offer pricing details, and even sell single battery packs to single customers. I don't mean to rant, but I have personally dealt with several companies that have amaizing batteries, motors, and anything else, but will not even talk to mortals like us, some are downright rude about it.


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## MitchJi (Dec 14, 2007)

Hi Richard,

I'm sorry I didn't think of this earlier but I would contact:
http://leftcoastelectric.com/index.php
[email protected]

He does EV Conversions and sells kits with NiMH battery packs. I think he makes them up out of smaller cells. I'm pretty sure he would sell you a pack or recommend a source for individual cells.

Best Wishes,

Mitch


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## blastergti (Dec 28, 2007)

david85 said:


> For me, its a toss up between thundersky (china), and lionEV (eastern USA), both offer good performance, and both could have their cost driven down considerably. With LionEV offering a wide range of batteries, and TS offering a solid performing mid range battery that, in theory at least, could be cheaper than lead acid (big volume pricing).
> 
> But the main reasons for me, are that they will return Email inquiries, offer pricing details, and even sell single battery packs to single customers. I don't mean to rant, but I have personally dealt with several companies that have amaizing batteries, motors, and anything else, but will not even talk to mortals like us, some are downright rude about it.


-----

Here is a link to a guy who got contact with thundersky, made an e-mail exchange, and got a price on a whole bunch of batteries, The price was 5 700$ for a pack making 144 volts and 540 Ah. Wich sounds reasonable when comparing to Lion Evs packs. Lion Ev´s silver packs cost 14 894 $ with bms, making 140 Volts and 29,26kwh.
http://www.evconvert.com/eve/the-battery-dilemma

Remember: The Thundersky batteries in his example are replaced with new more powerful ones on thundersky:s homepage. I didnt find the article number in his chart, and this is, what i guess is, the replacer: ts-lp12v160b, the price may have changed as well, but i dont know.

When i compared the prices, i said to myself "there is a chance going lithium!" And i went searching Youtube to see if there was anyone building an ev with these packs, and this was what i found:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FB1iKYgKSqo
The vid speaks for itself, but my opinion is that they should have replaced his packs... Right there i thought about your line "mortals as us" wich is really sad =(

In the video the old guy said Those Thundersky batteries was a Lithium cobalt type of battery, wich is more energetic than phosphates, but not as safe as lithium phosphates. "how safe?" i asked myself and went to the homepage of the "peak" batteries he was using, and watched this safety test of lithium cobalt oxides, and lithium phosphate.
http://www.peakbattery.com/ - at the bottom of the page
Just look at this! i do not want to have the cobalt oxides batteries in my car in case of an accident! The cobalt even makes a toxic gas when burning! (mentioned in the video at youtube) 

To remeber is that Thundersky makes other lithium mixes today, probably without cobalt, but this is just so you are aware of the cobalts effects. 

Man! i almost got off topic! 

Hope this info helps someone! 

// Blaster GTi


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## dtbaker (Jan 5, 2008)

I am just starting a conversion, and was originally very interested in Li (either LionEV or Thundersky. Turns out that LionEV has gotten a lot of negative feedback on deliver, and TS does not sell a BMS; you have to get a guy in Australia to make you one, and he's only got limited cycles on his prototype, so who knows what the real life will be.

so... I turned to explore NiMH, and so far have turned up only Nilar being very approachable, and they use another outfit (PlugInConversions.com) to handle EV related pack construction. So far they have been GREAT in answering questions and I think I am going to have them build some module strings for me to use. I am a little nervous about spending $10k for a battery pack, but it is supposed to last 5x as long at half the weight, half the size of lead, and no maintenence.

I am having trouble finding anyone else who has used them in a DC motor conversion though...... anyone?


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## MitchJi (Dec 14, 2007)

dtbaker said:


> \Turns out that LionEV has gotten a lot of negative feedback on deliver...
> 
> so... I turned to explore NiMH, and so far have turned up only Nilar being very approachable, and they use another outfit (PlugInConversions.com) to handle EV related pack construction...
> 
> I am a little nervous about spending $10k for a battery pack, but it is supposed to last 5x as long at half the weight, half the size of lead, and no maintenence.


Hi,

What does "a lot of negative feedback on deliver" mean? If it means they have a problem with on-time delivery but the packs eventually arrive and are good you might want to reconsider.

LionEV is rated about the same for cycle life, weigh about half as much. I don't know how much they charge for custom packs but at least one of the packs listed on the Hybrid page is about half the price of Nilar. 

Mitch


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## dtbaker (Jan 5, 2008)

MitchJi said:


> Hi,
> 
> What does "a lot of negative feedback on deliver" mean?
> -----
> ...


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

LionEV is just starting out, given time we will know if they are for real, but they were quick to answer any of my inquiries. For cost, the prices have since been taken off the website, but the options were $400/wh for the cheapest $700/wh for the mid range, and over $1000/wh for the top of the line (approximate pricing, and BMS was extra). If you contact them they can give you an estimate, even if all you want is a price, and not to buy a battery.

If you look at their website, they have updated it to show the teardown of a ford ranger, they say they will document the complete conversion process. No sign of EV components in the photos yet though.


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## dtbaker (Jan 5, 2008)

david85 said:


> LionEV is just starting out, given time we will know if they are for real, but they were quick to answer any of my inquiries. ....approximate pricing, and BMS was extra)
> ----------------
> 
> exactly, I have not been able to get firm quotes, including BMS...but sent a specific request yesterday to see what they can do for me. There seems to be no actual conversions that have been on the road for any length of time.
> ...


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

dtbaker said:


> david85 said:
> 
> 
> > LionEV is just starting out, given time we will know if they are for real, but they were quick to answer any of my inquiries. ....approximate pricing, and BMS was extra)
> ...


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## MitchJi (Dec 14, 2007)

dtbaker said:


> MitchJi said:
> 
> 
> > Hi,
> ...


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## Herman (May 12, 2014)

I bought a 2000 Ranger EV one year ago and have been searching for new or used battery modules since. I have a total of about 40 weak cells in various modules and would love to purchase four modules and take them apart to get the individual cells I need. The only source I have found is a member of the Fordrangerev yahoo group. Over the last six months he shipped me 35 cells which I charged and load tested several times only to end up with 8 usable cells.

Feburary 2012 BASF bought Ovonic and promised to make the return of large format (95ah) NiMH cells a high priority. They are still not available. BASF told me that Gold Peak battery company of Hong Kong is currently in prototype phase but when I checked with Gold Peak they said they cancelled the project.

By the way, don't bother upgrading the Ranger to Lithium. you will end up with a very expensive 50 mile range truck.


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

_By the way, don't bother upgrading the Ranger to Lithium. you will end up with a very expensive 50 mile range truck._

Explain?
For the same weight you should end up with nearly double the range


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## dougingraham (Jul 26, 2011)

Herman said:


> Feburary 2012 BASF bought Ovonic and promised to make the return of large format (95ah) NiMH cells a high priority. They are still not available. BASF told me that Gold Peak battery company of Hong Kong is currently in prototype phase but when I checked with Gold Peak they said they cancelled the project.


No doubt they did a cost analysis and found that it was not profitable to compete with Lithiums types. LiFe types are the lowest energy (but safest) of the Lithium types and the ones we have been using in our conversions have around 100 wh/kg and 160 wh/liter while NiMH have around 60 wh/kg and 200 wh/liter. In an EV the weight is terribly important. The price would have to be really low to get the OEM's to even look at them today. It looks like for the small 8AH format cells they cost a little less than 4 times more per watt hour than the Headway cells do. The other types of lithium cells are better than NiMH in both specifications. The cells Tesla is using in the Model S are about 3.5 times more dense (266 wh/kg and 690 wh/liter).



Herman said:


> By the way, don't bother upgrading the Ranger to Lithium. you will end up with a very expensive 50 mile range truck.


Lead looks cheaper but it is a false economy. Over a 5 to 6 year period lithium is cheaper than lead. This happens about the time you are replacing your lead pack for the third time. If you want a 50+ mile range truck lithium is about the only way to manage it. Putting that much lead in a pickup is possible but you can't carry anything else. And at the end of the first year you won't be able to go 50 miles anymore.


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