# [EVDL] An Argument for Switching from LiIon to Molten Salt Batteries



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

An Argument for Switching from LiIon to Molten Salt Batteries

I realize that this forum is mainly for those who are actively
developing electric cars and are searching for tips and advice on
how to solve problems and what and where to buy. Since the Zebra
battery that I discuss is only available to OEMs, it fails that
particular test.

However, if this forum is only limited to help for hobbyists, it is
no more, and no less, significant than one devoted to, say, hot
rods, or antique cars. But I believe what you are doing is far more
important: you are helping to move EVs into the mainstream, and a
widespread deployment of EVs addresses in a major way such issues as
war and peace, national security, the economy, global warming, and
other environmental concerns.

And so I am concerned when I see the entire auto industry galloping
off headlong into Lithium batteries that are so expensive and may
not be scalable, whereas two of the molten salt batteries offer
similar capabilities but with a drastically lower cost and far more
abundant resources.

Below are some web sites and reasons for believing that my concerns
are real. It appears that a major part of the problem is that very
few people, especially in this country, and even those who have a
great deal of technical experience with EVs are aware of the virtues
of these batteries. So I hope that making their properties more
widely known will influence those people who control the research
and production of EVs.

Here are three web sites that address the problem:

http://tyler.blogware.com/lithium_shortage.pdf

http://www.metricmind.com/zebra.htm

http://www.meridian-int-res.com/Projects/Zebra_Pages.pdf

And here is a summary of the advantages and disadvantages of sodium
nickel(or iron) chloride batteries with respect to the safe Lithium
batteries (I have posted more details a month or so ago):

o The salt batteries appear to equal the safe Li batteries in terms
of maintenance, durability and long life, safety, and energy
density (i.e., driving range)

o They are significantly superior in terms of all weather
capability

o They are greatly superior in terms of cost: the lowest projected
cost I have seen for safe Li batteries (with large scale
production) is $350/KWH, compared with under $100/KWH for the
sodium iron chloride battery: a factor of 4 difference.

o They are greatly superior in terms of resource availability. Were
we to equip the worlds auto/truck/bus fleet with an average of 40
KWH Li batteries (and if we don't replace the great majority of
such vehicles with electric versions, the huge environmental and
military problems will not be addressed) we would use up almost
the entire known reserves of accessible Lithium in the world.
However, we will likely never run out of salt and iron for sodium
iron chloride batteries.

o They do have some disadvantages:

- a lower power density (as opposed to energy density): a 40 KWH
salt battery produces about 80+ HP, so it might be good to
boost the power with a very small 1 KWH Li battery which would
not much affect the cost or availability of Lithium. Or use
ultra-capacitors, etc.

- they do not currently allow for rapid recharging, but
most recharging is done at home where rapid recharging is
impossible in any case, and there are other alternatives such
as fast battery swapping a la` Project Better Place, or small
trailer gen-sets.

- they should be plugged in a least once/week to avoid battery
freeze-up, which shortens the life of the battery.

In my view, the above disadvantages are well worth the drastic
difference in cost and the risk of scarce resources.

-- Larry.
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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Hey Larry,

Do you know what the Zebra battery goes for when it is sold?
Are they even being manufactured?
Are there any patents in the US preventing others from building them?

Thanks,
Cory Cross

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Larry Gales wrote:
> > An Argument for Switching from LiIon to Molten Salt Batteries
> 
> I fail to see your point. Such batteries are not available at any
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Currently the Zebra battery is manufactured by MEA-DES in Switzerland, but
is only available to OEMs. The last I heard was that they only produced
about 2000 of these batteries per year, and so the cost is very high, a
vaguely recall something like $800-900 per KWH. The low cost of $120-130
for the Zebra, and less than $100/KWH for the sodium iron chloride battery
assumes production volumes of 100,000.

The link I gave: http://www.metricmind.com/zebra.htm

contains information about the company.

Right now, I don't think the sodium IRON chloride battery is in production,
and while it would be somewhat less expensive, since its energy/power
density is 9% less, I suspect we would not see any production until we began
to run into nickel resource limits, but it could likely be built using
almost the exact same facilities.

I know that one US or Canadian company was trying to buy rights to Zebra
technology, but
I don't think t went through.



> Cory Cross <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> > Hey Larry,
> >
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

I am not advocating stopping Lithium batteries, I am only advocating that
these salt batteries be considered given the extreme cost and resource
limits of Li batteries. Because I feel that very few people are aware of
these batteries I worry that we may travel down a road to EVs that few can
afford and which may not be sustainable.

If people know about these batteries then they can determine whether or not
my concern is valid (it may not be), but if they are never discussed we may
be heading in the wrong direction.



> Willie McKemie <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> > On Fri, Feb 06, 2009 at 02:25:53PM -0800, Larry Gales wrote:
> > > An Argument for Switching from LiIon to Molten Salt Batteries
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Willie McKemie wrote:
>


> Larry Gales wrote:
> >> An Argument for Switching from LiIon to Molten Salt Batteries
> >
> > I fail to see your point. Such batteries are not available at any
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

I'm not an engineer, just a hobbyist, and I'm probably displaying some 
narrow-mindedness here. But it seems to me that any battery which eats its 
own stored energy to keep that energy available presents significant 
challenges, in terms of usability and efficiency, for an all-purpose 
vehicle. (I'm kind of dancing around the self-discharge of some other 
batteries, such as NiCd and NiMH.)

It seems to me that such a battery might indeed be fairly well suited to a 
commercial vehicle which runs all the way through a work shift, is charged 
in its off hours, and is never out of service for more than a weekend.

But it's less clearly suited to a vehicle that may be parked for 2 weeks at 
the airport, sits while the family is on vacation, or could be owned by a 
retiree whose health may not be too good and only drives now and then -- or 
the legendary little old lady who only drives to church on Sunday. 

There are ways of dealing with this, of course. If you can charge at the 
airport, you can keep your battery warm there. But it adds yet another 
perceived inconvenience to EVs, one more thing for the average driver to 
think about, one more issue for the newspaper and magazine automotive 
writers to gripe about and ridicule.

The fact that these batteries have to remain in a molten state so they're 
ready to use just seems sort of awkward and "clunky" to me -- as it would, I 
think, to many potential EV customers. Perhaps I'm missing something.

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

I have absolutely no relationship with any battery company: I am a retired
PhD in computer science who has a passionate interest in a sustainable
society and I see EVs as an important, perhaps necessary, part of it. I
would be delighted if my concerns turned out to be wrong as my goal is EVs
whatever clean, renewable type of energy drives them.



> Josh Wyatt <[email protected]>wrote:
> 
> > Willie McKemie wrote:
> > > On Fri, Feb 06, 2009 at 02:25:53PM -0800, Larry Gales wrote:
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

The reality is that the battery choice is not about choosing the best, 
but choosing the best available, or in many cases the best you can 
afford. Molten Salt batteries are simply not available to us 
converters. Lithium ion is simply the best available at this time, 
although I'm sure some on this list still prefer lead.

However, it's kind of irrelavent to the greater good of 
electrification of the automobile. Lithium is just a stepping stone to 
the next even better battery technology.

You mention sustainability being your interest. The lithium we borrow 
from the earth to use as battery material is not consumed, just 
borrowed. At the end of it's life it can be completely recycled. It 
enables us to move closer to the goal of getting away from non- 
sustainable oil consumption.

Sent from my iPhone



> Larry Gales <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> > I have absolutely no relationship with any battery company: I am a
> > retired
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Roger Heuckeroth <[email protected]> wrote:
> > The reality is that the battery choice is not about choosing the best,
> > but choosing the best available, or in many cases the best you can
> > afford. Molten Salt batteries are simply not available to us
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Really! Did you tell them you were an OEM, or have they changed their 
policy?

Sent from my iPhone



> Evan Tuer <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> > On Sat, Feb 7, 2009 at 5:48 AM, Roger Heuckeroth <[email protected]
> > > wrote:
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Roger Heuckeroth <[email protected]> wrote:
> > Really! Did you tell them you were an OEM, or have they changed their
> > policy?
> >
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

My advice is to stop looking for one solution. It is a trap that 
gasoline let us fall into.
Designers will need various chemistries for various applications.

Why can't we have Electric vehicles with varied battery chemistries out 
there, spread it around!
Some chemistries will result in longer life.
Some will result in lower costs.
Some maybe better cold weather or hot weather operation.
Some more appropriate for trucks and some more appropriate for small cars.
Some are better for cars driven every day, some can sit for a week.
Some can be fit into tight places, some must be in large rectangular boxes.

w/kg - how much power
in C where C is capacity
zebra = 4C but continuous is more like 1C . This makes it work well 
for really small apps where amp draw is low or rather large apps where 
capacity is high and performance is not scaled. ie smart car and 
delivery trucks
LiFePo4 = 10-30C but continuous more like 3-10C (due to heating). 
While Wh/kg is the same or even less than the zebra batteries, it has 
higher power density allowing it to have the power needed to propel a 
larger car without having to have the added capacity.
...


wh/kg - how much energy.

The more important thing is to get these chemistries out from under the 
proprietary thumb.
They have to become a commodity (like lead) so we have choices and 
therefore competition and hopefully more reasonable prices.

Otherwise why not consider RTG (radioisotope /thermoelectric/ 
generator)(30 year life primary battery, ie no chargeing ) or Nickle 
Hydrogen(200,000 cycles and 25 years no problem)




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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Jeff Shanab" <[email protected]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Saturday, February 07, 2009 11:16 AM
Subject: [EVDL] An Argument for Switching from LiIon to Molten Salt 
Batteries


> My advice is to stop looking for one solution. It is a trap that
> gasoline let us fall into.
> Designers will need various chemistries for various applications.

BINGO! We have a Winner! I couldn't have said it better? IF EV''s were 
marketed in ALL the World, ya would pick out the best chemestry for yopur 
use? Of couse it's how DEEP are your pockets as I don't think batteries will 
EVer be "Cheap?"But you /we MAY live long enough to see the options?

Seeya

Bob STILL waiting for my Aronsonian Tri-Polars!
> Why can't we have Electric vehicles with varied battery chemistries out
> there, spread it around!
> Some chemistries will result in longer life.
> Some will result in lower costs.
> Some maybe better cold weather or hot weather operation.
> Some more appropriate for trucks and some more appropriate for small cars.
> Some are better for cars driven every day, some can sit for a week.
> Some can be fit into tight places, some must be in large rectangular 
> boxes.
> 

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> EVDL Administrator wrote:
> 
> > I'm not an engineer, just a hobbyist, and I'm probably
> > displaying some narrow-mindedness here. But it seems to me
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

I want to thank everyone who has contributed to this topic. In
retrospect I should have titled the discussion less provocatively
then "An argument for Switching from LiIon to Molten salt
batteries". What I meant to say, and did convey in the text, was my
concern that a very promising alternative is being totally
overlooked by, apparently, all of the world's auto manufactures, not
to mention the mass media which informs public opinion and
politicians.

Frequently I hear EV critics talk about the extraordinary cost, or
Lithium scarcity, or the political consequences of half the world's
Lithium being in one small country, Bolivia. That there are valid
alternatives in cost, availability, and capability are virtually
never mentioned.

-- Larry Gales



> Larry Gales <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> > I am not advocating stopping Lithium batteries, I am only advocating that
> > these salt batteries be considered given the extreme cost and resource
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

And many times those critics are working for the oil companies. Not 
always, but many times.




> Larry Gales wrote:
> 
> > Frequently I hear EV critics talk about the extraordinary cost, or
> > Lithium scarcity, or the political consequences of half the world's
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Cor van de Water wrote:
> > Direct from the IEEE:
> > ieeexplore.ieee.org/iel3/62/3840/x0338149.pdf
> > "stress during freezing and thawing [12]."
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

www.aep.com/newsroom/newsreleases/?Id=1397

megawatt batteries
yes someone else makes molten salt batteries

modec.co.uk uses zebra batteries for their electric delivery vehicles,
trucks. another company has used them for a bus, think has put them in a
car. you should not try to go 300 miles in a vehicle with a range of 80
miles. you should not use a molten salt battery If you can not plug it in
for days at a time. four days at a time ?
would not molten salt batteries be really good for van pool vehicles ?

scienceservice.si.edu/pages/001017.htm

Jack liften said he worked as an assistant on this project for ford

salt and nickel is probably better
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