# Bumblebee Triumph Spitfire Build Thread



## ClintK (Apr 27, 2008)

I haven't really had a build thread, but figured I've got some good progress so might as well start one! My wife has come up a good name for the car, Bumblebee ("transformed" from gas to electric...).

This past weekend I cut out my adapter plate. (With lots of help from xrotaryguy, thanks man!) WD-40 is definitely your friend when cutting metal.

I still need to drill the mounting holes in the plate for the motor and transmission but that will be pretty easy. I'll hopefully get my first (very low speed) test drive in the next couple weeks!


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## brent.massey (Jul 23, 2008)

Looks great Clint! I've been following your progress on your blog, and I'm impressed! You're really making headway.

I'm still looking for my donor. I've been looking for an MG nearby, but the few I've found are all rusted to hell. I'm working a lead on a 76 Triumph TR6 that is here in New Orleans, probably go check that out later this week.


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## ClintK (Apr 27, 2008)

brent.massey said:


> Looks great Clint! I've been following your progress on your blog, and I'm impressed! You're really making headway.
> 
> I'm still looking for my donor. I've been looking for an MG nearby, but the few I've found are all rusted to hell. I'm working a lead on a 76 Triumph TR6 that is here in New Orleans, probably go check that out later this week.


Thanks!
I was checking out a MG just a couple days before I bought my Spit - they are good looking cars. I'm very happy with the Spitfire though, it's ridiculously easy to work on. Car shopping is definitely easier in Phoenix - rust isn't nearly as much of an issue.


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## ClintK (Apr 27, 2008)

Only 50% done with the conversion, but I've had my first test drive with the Spitfire!






No motor controller, but I did rig up my contactor to the Pot Box so I had power on / off with a single 12V battery. Even at 5 mph, it was really freaking sweet!


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## cupp747 (Aug 23, 2008)

congradulations for following thru on your vision, looks good.
cupp747


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## Thaniel (May 25, 2008)

Looking good! Did you cut the center hole with the jig saw? How well does it fit the motor or did you just cut it for clearance? I'm to the point I need to start making my adapter plate.

Thaniel


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## tj4fa (May 25, 2008)

Bumblebee...hmm...

Sure wish Vista supported my old Photoshop program.










A couple of black stripes and it can be a Superbee... 

Or at least a BumbleBEV


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## taff224 (Dec 4, 2008)

Just a quick note to say great project.

I've just had to sell my 1977 MG Midget as I didn't have a garage to store it in. But my plan for the future is an MG/Spitfire electric conversion very similar to the one you are doing.

I'll spend some time running through your Blog and see what you've got, but I may be stealing your ideas..

Chris


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## ClintK (Apr 27, 2008)

Thanks all!



Thaniel said:


> Looking good! Did you cut the center hole with the jig saw? How well does it fit the motor or did you just cut it for clearance? I'm to the point I need to start making my adapter plate.


I cut the center hole of my adapter plate with a jig saw. I oversized the hole so clearance with the shaft/coupler wasn't an issue. The coupler needs more exact dimensions and you need some good machining equipment for it, but I think anyone can make their own adapter plate.



taff224 said:


> I've just had to sell my 1977 MG Midget as I didn't have a garage to store it in. But my plan for the future is an MG/Spitfire electric conversion very similar to the one you are doing.
> 
> I'll spend some time running through your Blog and see what you've got, but I may be stealing your ideas..


I highly recommend the Spitfire! (Do anything I did with extreme caution .)



tj4fa said:


> Bumblebee...hmm...
> Sure wish Vista supported my old Photoshop program.
> A couple of black stripes and it can be a Superbee...
> Or at least a BumbleBEV


The car is 'close' to this... right?


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## Ron Atkinson (Apr 17, 2008)

if I remember correctly the "Spitfire" has a very lightweight chassis, so the acceleration could be quite "mind-blowing" at first. Power/weight ratios are the "name of the game sir, good luck with your conversion!!!


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## ClintK (Apr 27, 2008)

I've pretty much worked out a wiring diagram for the car. The current plan is to use ElectroCraft's EVMTC60-192V motor controller http://pages.interlog.com/~dgv/dc.html

I based my diagram off the one shown on their website (with some modifications). Notes of interest...

Instead of using 2 contactors, I'm planning on having only 1, but it will only be powered if both the key is in the on position and the pedal is depressed.

The fans switch on as soon as the key is turned to the on position.

My voltmeter / ammeter are positioned such that they use the same fuse as the rest of the high voltage system. Of course now that I look at it, I'm thinking the voltmeter / ammeter really needs their own low amperage fuses as well - I'll add those.

I'll also rig up a cable system to help pull the cut-off switch in case of emergency.

The car doesn't have power steering or brakes.

I don't show the charging connections or DC-DC converter, but I'm thinking about connecting those via a fuse directly to the main battery pack.

I've read a decent amount about pre-charge resistors that you need or you'll damage the motor controller, but the sample wiring diagram for this controller doesn't show one so I assume I don't I need it.

Any opinions / suggestions / etc.? Thanks!


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## ClintK (Apr 27, 2008)

Ron Atkinson said:


> if I remember correctly the "Spitfire" has a very lightweight chassis, so the acceleration could be quite "mind-blowing" at first. Power/weight ratios are the "name of the game sir, good luck with your conversion!!!


Thanks! The car is definitely light. I went with a 6.7" motor, so I'm thinking my acceleration will only be 'ok'. I bet this car could win some races with a 9" motor and Lithiums though.


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## brent.massey (Jul 23, 2008)

Congrats on your first test drive Clint! You've got 'the grin', thats for sure!

What's the price on that controller from ElectroCraft? I can't find prices on their website anywhere


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## ClintK (Apr 27, 2008)

brent.massey said:


> Congrats on your first test drive Clint! You've got 'the grin', thats for sure!
> 
> What's the price on that controller from ElectroCraft? I can't find prices on their website anywhere


Here's what they quoted me a couple months ago (may have changed since then)...
Our EVMTC120V-400A has the following features:
- above 20KHz chopping operation, so it is quiet.
- 400A is its peak limit. So, 200A is no problem at all.
- It has its internal 120V to 12V converter ( for Key-switch). So, you
do not need an external 12V
- It will fit your car and motor.
Price is $849 plus shipping ($ 35 to North American destinations) delivery 3 to 4 weeks.
1 year warranty, will work up to 250V

I don't know anyone else who has used them, but considering the price, features, and warranty, I'll give them a shot.


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## Bottomfeeder (Jun 13, 2008)

Two comments and a compliment.

First of all congratulations on your 12V test drive. I did the same thing (although much more crudely) in my Spit when I got the motor under the hood. It sure is a great feeling.

A second contactor adds just a bit more safety redundancy to the vehicle. Contactors can and do weld themselves closed, or so I hear.

Also, a precharge resister may not be required, but it will surely help prolong the life of the capacitors inside the controller. I'm sure a 10W, 1K resistor won't break your budget. You'll probably also need a relay and a slight altering of your schematic.

Keep up the good work. I wish my Spit looked half as good as yours does.


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## ClintK (Apr 27, 2008)

Bottomfeeder said:


> Two comments and a compliment.
> 
> First of all congratulations on your 12V test drive. I did the same thing (although much more crudely) in my Spit when I got the motor under the hood. It sure is a great feeling.
> 
> ...


I appreciate the comments!

I've been going back and forth on the multiple contactors. My thinking is that since the contactor will only close when I apply pressure to the foot pedal, if the controller fails the car will only 'run away' when my foot was on the accelerator pedal. In theory if my foot is on the pedal then it should be clear in front of the car. If I lift my foot off and the power continues, then I've got the manual circuit breaker to pull. Right? Now I've sent my Christmas wishlist to Santa, so if I get another contactor I may end up installing 2 after all. 

I'll definitely ask the manufacturer about the precharge resistor. What would an additional relay be for? To open/close the resistor?



Bottomfeeder said:


> Keep up the good work. I wish my Spit looked half as good as yours does.


Thanks! I don't know about that though... You're restoring your Spitfire the proper way - that's going to be a -sharp- car when you're done. Mine looks good on pictures because cameras can hide flaws.


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## Bottomfeeder (Jun 13, 2008)

If you have a precharge resistor, then there are three states that you need to achieve:
Precharge Off
Main Power Off

Precharge On
Main Power On

Precharge Off or On
Main Power On 

You can't do that with only one contactor. You'll need another switch in there somewhere.

I'm going to use my two contactors and my ignition switch. When the switch moves to "Ign" the negative contactor closes and precharge begins. When I move the switch to "start" the positive contactor will close and I'll have full voltage. The switch will spring back to "Ign" but I'm using a relay latch to keep the positive contactor energized.

There are many other ways to do it, of course. You could use a small relay just on the pre-charge for example. As long as it comes on first for a second or two, you should be fine.

Unfortunately, I don't have the money to dump into making my Spit look fantastic. The interior will be a little worse for wear until I get the dough to make it look great. It's just a little harder to find some parts for the older Spits, too. I'm very lucky my seats are in usable condition!


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## Tolliver (May 8, 2008)

Ive always thought about using a spitfire. My Granfather had one for years and it went to my aunt and uncle in DC when he died. They've still got it and drive it in the summers on the weekends. I still wouldn't mind getting ahold of it one day.

Congrats man and good luck.


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## ClintK (Apr 27, 2008)

Tolliver said:


> Ive always thought about using a spitfire. My Granfather had one for years and it went to my aunt and uncle in DC when he died. They've still got it and drive it in the summers on the weekends. I still wouldn't mind getting ahold of it one day.
> 
> Congrats man and good luck.


My wife and I were at a nearby outdoor mall, and a guy had a convertible Alfa Romeo Spider parked on the street. I was jealous, and it gave me even more motivation to get this conversion done! 



Bottomfeeder said:


> If you have a precharge resistor, then there are three states that you need to achieve:
> Precharge Off
> Main Power Off
> 
> ...


If you are precharging the controller, does that mean the PotBox microswitch is not used? I thought most people used that microswitch with a contactor to open the main power circuit when their foot was off the gas. It sounds like precharging requires the main power to be closed at all times? Or does the precharge only need to happen before the first acceleration?

Updated wiring diagram below with charger and DC-DC converter...

Thanks!


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## Jimdear2 (Oct 12, 2008)

Bottomfeeder said:


> If you have a precharge resistor, then there are three states that you need to achieve:
> Precharge Off
> Main Power Off
> 
> ...


Howdy All,

The new SD series of contactor/disconnect may be the answer you need. go to http://www.curtisinst.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=cDatasheets.dspListDS&CatID=7&siteID=1 and look up the SD series specs.

Look at the attched diagram I made up and see how you can acheive the three states with one unit.

I just ordered one of these, with mag blow outs and auxillary contacts, from the US distributor for $133.00 plus local shipping. 6 to 8 weeks delivery from England. 

It's worth a look.

Jim


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## Bottomfeeder (Jun 13, 2008)

There are definitely lots of ways to achieve safety. Personally, I don't want to hear clicks every time I put my foot on the pedal. I am using the microswitch to prevent the contactor turning on with my foot on the pedal. But once the contactors turn on, they stay on until I turn the vehicle off. On the very first post of my thread, I have a schematic. If it doesn't make sense, let me know. But, there are lots of ways to implement the safety interlocks. Just make sure it jives with what you want...


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## ClintK (Apr 27, 2008)

Bottomfeeder said:


> There are definitely lots of ways to achieve safety. Personally, I don't want to hear clicks every time I put my foot on the pedal. I am using the microswitch to prevent the contactor turning on with my foot on the pedal. But once the contactors turn on, they stay on until I turn the vehicle off. On the very first post of my thread, I have a schematic. If it doesn't make sense, let me know. But, there are lots of ways to implement the safety interlocks. Just make sure it jives with what you want...


I asked ElectroCraft about a precharge resistor, and they highly recommend it. Also after thinking about it, I don't want to completely shut off power to the controller as it needs the power to supply its internal 12V components.

I've been searching through the forum for "precharge resistor" and trying to figure this out... a few questions...

If I only use 1 contactor, I would have it triggered by the key switch and the resistor would always be active in the circuit. I have a hard time believing the standard Radio Shack resistor can handle 400 Amps at 120V. Any comments?

If I use 2 contactors, 1 contactor would be triggered via the key switch. The other contactor would have a standard Radio Shack resistor over the 2 terminals and be triggered by the Pot Box microswitch? In general I like this approach, but I am concerned that if I lift my foot off the pedal the contactor opens but the controller may still try to be trying to pull a significant amount of current through the resistor. Any comments?

Sounds like the way to go is what you did.  2 contactors, 1 triggered by key switch to "on" position. The other with a resistor in parallel closed when the key switch is in the "on" position and open when the key switch is in the "start" position. When I first turn the car on I can hold the key in the "start" for a couple seconds for the precharge then release to have a clean closed circuit.
I'm having difficulties on what components I need to rig together that setup however. I don't understand the box you have just to the left of your controller in your first build thread post.

Thanks!


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## rfengineers (Jun 2, 2008)

I built a step-start delay to first turn on my precharge relay and then, after a delay, turn on the main contactor. I also added the option of monitoring the vacuum pump and not turning on the contactor until the brake vacuum reservoir was 'full'. I've been driving the car for a couple of weeks now and have worked out the bugs.

**WARNING, a shameful commercial advertisement follows!**I have extra parts and circuit boards, so if anyone is interested in buying one let me know.​**End of shameful commercial advertisement.**


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## Bottomfeeder (Jun 13, 2008)

ClintK said:


> If I only use 1 contactor, I would have it triggered by the key switch and the resistor would always be active in the circuit. I have a hard time believing the standard Radio Shack resistor can handle 400 Amps at 120V. Any comments?


The resistor won't see 400A, don't worry. But it will see the 120V, briefly before the capacitors are charged, so very briefly. The current through the resistor will depend on the resistance, of course. I=V/R, and the power will be P = V^2/R. Make sure you get a resistor that can handle some power. I'm using a 10W 750Ohm resistor.


ClintK said:


> If I use 2 contactors, 1 contactor would be triggered via the key switch. The other contactor would have a standard Radio Shack resistor over the 2 terminals and be triggered by the Pot Box microswitch? In general I like this approach, but I am concerned that if I lift my foot off the pedal the contactor opens but the controller may still try to be trying to pull a significant amount of current through the resistor. Any comments?
> 
> Sounds like the way to go is what you did.  2 contactors, 1 triggered by key switch to "on" position. The other with a resistor in parallel closed when the key switch is in the "on" position and open when the key switch is in the "start" position. When I first turn the car on I can hold the key in the "start" for a couple seconds for the precharge then release to have a clean closed circuit.
> I'm having difficulties on what components I need to rig together that setup however. I don't understand the box you have just to the left of your controller in your first build thread post.
> ...


 You'll need to have a resistor that can handle the power. You might be able to find it at Radio Shack, but it's not a "standard" resistor.

My schematic is a little messy, I understand the confusion. What's happening is the contactor on the negative line closes with the key in the "on" position. The positive contactor is open, but a little current is flowing through the 10W 750Ohm resistor to precharge the capacitors. I let it sit like this for a second or two. Then I bump it over to the "start" position. This activates a relay which does two things: it powers the positive contactor, giving full power to the controller, and it powers itself. So as long as the key remains in the "on" position, the relay will stay latched. When I turn the key to "off" the relay will once again open (as will both contactors). Does that make sense? Once you wrap your head around that, you can figure out exactly how you want your potbox microswitch interlock to function, and add that switch appropriately in series.

Having a timed function sure would make things simpler. And eventually I might implement something along those lines. There are plenty of delay relays that can be used. For right now, I'll be my own time delay.

Let me know if any of this makes sense.


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## rfengineers (Jun 2, 2008)

You can calculate the capacitance of the controller by measuring the voltage across the precharge resistor and noting the time it takes for the voltage to drop 63%. For example, if you initially have 120V across a 1000-ohm resistor and it takes 10-seconds for the voltage to drop to 44V (63% is one time constant) then your capacitance is C(Farads) = 10(Seconds)/1000(Ohms) or 10,000 uF. 

With this information you can determine what the voltage across your contactor will be for any precharge resistance value and time period.







.

So, for a 750-Ohm resistor;
One Time Constant (Seconds) = 750-Ohms * 0.01-Farads = 7.5 Seconds

In one Time Constant the controller will charge to 63% of the applied Voltage.

In two Time Constants (15 seconds) you will have 86%, in three TCs 95%, in four TCs 98%, and in five Time Constants you will be above 99% (or zero volts across the contacts).


On another note, How come nobody has flamed me for my earlier commercial message?


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## tj4fa (May 25, 2008)

rfengineers said:


> On another note, How come nobody has flamed me for my earlier commercial message?










Maybe we're out of gas...


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## Bottomfeeder (Jun 13, 2008)

rfengineers,
Do you have a good feel for how charged the capacitors need to be to prevent long term damage? Some people never pre-charge and their systems work fine (for now, that is) and you could wait 10 time constants for a rather thorough charging, but that would be ridiculous. Where is the middle ground? How long does your step-start relay wait?


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## tj4fa (May 25, 2008)

Is it true that if you put too small a pre-charge resistor in that it may catch fire?


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## rfengineers (Jun 2, 2008)

Bottomfeeder said:


> rfengineers,
> Do you have a good feel for how charged the capacitors need to be to prevent long term damage? Some people never pre-charge and their systems work fine (for now, that is) and you could wait 10 time constants for a rather thorough charging, but that would be ridiculous. Where is the middle ground? How long does your step-start relay wait?


The caps don't care if you precharge them or not. They can take it.

The precharge is to prevent contactor arcing. This significantly reduces the chances of your contacts welding together.

I let the Voltage across the contacts drop to under 75-V before I close the contactor. For my Curtis 1231C-7701 and a 1000-Ohm resistor, it takes 20-seconds. That is just about enough time for me to get my seatbelt on, the mirrors adjusted, window rolled down, radio tuned in... I have the option of forcing the contactor to close after only 10-seconds by twisting the key a second time.

The time delays can be customized when you order the device. Oops, was that another ad?!


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## rfengineers (Jun 2, 2008)

tj4fa said:


> Is it true that if you put too small a pre-charge resistor in that it may catch fire?


Sure, Lets say you put in a 100-Ohm, 5-Watt resistor across the contactor. If you have a 120-Volt system then for the first few moments you will have 120/100 Amps flowing through the resistor. That's (1.2*120) Watts. (144-Watts)

If you have 0.01 Farads of capacitance, then one Time Constant would be 100*0.01 = 1 second.

Initially the resistor will develop 144-Watts of power.
After one second that will drop to (0.444mA*44.4V) = 18-Watts
After two seconds (.018mA*18V) = 1/3-Watts

I bet it would blow up!


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## Bottomfeeder (Jun 13, 2008)

It makes sense that the caps can take the inrush current better than the contactor, but most of the things I read say that the pre-charge resistor saves the controller. Either way it saves something, I guess, so it doesn't even really matter.

20 seconds seems like an excessive amount of time to me, but I don't have the best feel for this stuff.


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## peggus (Feb 18, 2008)

The caps do indeed care! The huge inrush current will cause significant magnetic forces inside the caps that lead to mechanical stress on the plates and separators. This wears them out and eventually they fail.





Bottomfeeder said:


> It makes sense that the caps can take the inrush current better than the contactor, but most of the things I read say that the pre-charge resistor saves the controller. Either way it saves something, I guess, so it doesn't even really matter.
> 
> 20 seconds seems like an excessive amount of time to me, but I don't have the best feel for this stuff.


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## ClintK (Apr 27, 2008)

Well on Christmas I'll find out how many contactors my car will have. 

Let's say I only have 1 contactor, and it is triggered via the key switch. I just need to find a resistor that has a power rating high enough to handle my voltage? So for example, I have 120V nominal, for safety I'll say 140V. If I have a 750 Ohm resistor, I need to make sure it has a power rating of at least V^2/R or 26W?

Or how about a resistor rated for 50W, 1k Ohm such as this one http://www.newark.com/jsp/search/productdetail.jsp?SKU=98K2902&CMP=AFC-GB100000001 This, "always on" (in series) with my main pack will waste a tiny bit of power but will safely precharge my capacitors? It's just odd connecting 2/0 cable to this tiny resistor.

Sound right? Thanks!


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## gerd1022 (Jun 9, 2008)

it actually wont waste much at all, even if it is always on, because as your caps charge up, the current through the resistor (and power loss) goes to 0. 

the way i have it is that the circuit breaker cuts all power (including dc/dc converter and precharge) but otherwise the precharge resistor and dc/dc are always on with one contactor.


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## ClintK (Apr 27, 2008)

Bottomfeeder said:


> My schematic is a little messy, I understand the confusion. What's happening is the contactor on the negative line closes with the key in the "on" position. The positive contactor is open, but a little current is flowing through the 10W 750Ohm resistor to precharge the capacitors. I let it sit like this for a second or two. Then I bump it over to the "start" position. This activates a relay which does two things: it powers the positive contactor, giving full power to the controller, and it powers itself. So as long as the key remains in the "on" position, the relay will stay latched. When I turn the key to "off" the relay will once again open (as will both contactors). Does that make sense? Once you wrap your head around that, you can figure out exactly how you want your potbox microswitch interlock to function, and add that switch appropriately in series.


I understand the theory - I'm having a tough time with the schematic though. If the key is turned to start, a relay closes that closes the contactor. When the key is released to the on position, the relay must stay closed to keep the contactor closed. Maybe my issue is the relay. Mine only have 4 connections while your drawing shows 5 wires entering the relay. Is there a special type of relay to do what you're describing?



rfengineers said:


> I built a step-start delay to first turn on my precharge relay and then, after a delay, turn on the main contactor. I also added the option of monitoring the vacuum pump and not turning on the contactor until the brake vacuum reservoir was 'full'. I've been driving the car for a couple of weeks now and have worked out the bugs.
> 
> **WARNING, a shameful commercial advertisement follows!**I have extra parts and circuit boards, so if anyone is interested in buying one let me know.​**End of shameful commercial advertisement.**


I don't have a vacuum pump, but how does your circuit work? Is it a little black box where I connect a wire from key switch "on", key switch "start", ground, and then the 2 contactor leads?

Sorry it's taking me a bit of time to figure this out, but I really appreciate the help!


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## rfengineers (Jun 2, 2008)

Bottomfeeder said:


> 20 seconds seems like an excessive amount of time to me, but I don't have the best feel for this stuff.


I played around with other delays, from 3 seconds to 30 seconds. I found (at least for me) that ten seconds was the shortest period that I needed to get ready to drive and 15-to-20 seconds was typical. That is why I have the option of starting after ten seconds by twisting the key to "START" a second time.
The time delay can be set to any value you want when I program the chip.

I don't want to continue to hijack this thread, the first post was sort of tongue-in-cheek. I will move this discussion to a new thread if there is interest in the subject.


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## ClintK (Apr 27, 2008)

rfengineers said:


> I played around with other delays, from 3 seconds to 30 seconds. I found (at least for me) that ten seconds was the shortest period that I needed to get ready to drive and 15-to-20 seconds was typical. That is why I have the option of starting after ten seconds by twisting the key to "START" a second time.
> The time delay can be set to any value you want when I program the chip.
> 
> I don't want to continue to hijack this thread, the first post was sort of tongue-in-cheek. I will move this discussion to a new thread if there is interest in the subject.


It's my thread, hijack away  or please shoot me a link to your new thread.


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## Bottomfeeder (Jun 13, 2008)

The relays I am using have 5 connections, but you certainly don't need 5. Just ignore the wire that goes straight down to my "Ign" light. It's an idiot lamp for me so that I know that the car is "off". I'm not sure of what the proper terminology is, so I'll make up my own. The relay has coil connections and switch connections. The switch is normally open. One side of the coil is grounded, so that if the other side of the coil sees 12V, it actuates the switch. Very simple. I put the "on" wire onto one switch connection. The other connection goes to both the solenoid on the contactor and to the coil connection on the relay itself. Of course, when the "on" wire has 12V, it can't actuate the relay because the switch isn't closed yet. So, the "start" wire also goes to the coil. It actuates the relay (ignore the interlock through the potbox microswitch for now). Once the switch is closed the "on" wire can now keep power to the coil. In this way the relay "latches" closed and stays closed as long as there is voltage on the "on" wire. I had to make sure that my ignition switch didn't cut off power to the "on" wire while in "start". But, that was a simple test. I hope I didn't make things more complicated.


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## ClintK (Apr 27, 2008)

I've got the motor finally mounted in the car! (As opposed to just resting on the support beam.) I'm pretty happy with how the mount turned out.

Controller is to arrive in 4-5 weeks... On the one hand that's good, because it forces me to space out my purchases. On the other hand I really want to get my controller parts installed!


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## Bottomfeeder (Jun 13, 2008)

That looks like it will do the job! Great work. I would suggest that you start working on the battery racks. I don't know how much thought you've given to battery placement, etc. You might also need to upgrade your suspension a bit, depending on what batteries you'll be using and where you'll put them. It's not too big of a deal, but there are plenty of things you can do while waiting for your controller. Great to see the progress! Now I just need to find the time to make progress on mine.


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## ClintK (Apr 27, 2008)

Bottomfeeder said:


> That looks like it will do the job! Great work. I would suggest that you start working on the battery racks. I don't know how much thought you've given to battery placement, etc. You might also need to upgrade your suspension a bit, depending on what batteries you'll be using and where you'll put them. It's not too big of a deal, but there are plenty of things you can do while waiting for your controller. Great to see the progress! Now I just need to find the time to make progress on mine.


Thanks!

Very true... I should go to the store and take exact dimensions of the batteries to start on the boxes. I've been debating about the total number of them. The batteries are 65 lbs each... 650 lbs total. I'm shooting for 4 under the hood (260 lbs) and 6 in the trunk (390 lbs). How hard do you think that will be on the suspension? Know any cheap / easy suspension upgrades for the Spit to get me started? I saw you changed out your springs, how much did that cost?


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## gerd1022 (Jun 9, 2008)

heres a good one that i did...

http://triumphspitfire.nl/rearspringpads.html

you just replace the old rubber bushings with those teflon ones in your rear leaf spring and it adds about an inch to the rear. My machinist charged me 8 bucks to make them, and the stock was like 10. Actually, if i can find the leftover rod, i could ship you the teflon stock i have. no use for it anymore...


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## gerd1022 (Jun 9, 2008)

also: right now i have 4 batts in the front and 8!! in the trunk. my batteries weighed in at around 55 lbs apiece, but its still lowriding in the back. However, with the new teflon bits and new shocks, its just a tad lower than its supposed to be, and i still have quite a bit of play. 

eventually, im going to attempt to move two batts to the front, but we will see how that works.


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## tj4fa (May 25, 2008)

Would installing a pair of spring shackles in the back be too much of a bastardization to raise the rear of the car a bit?

The truck and 4X4 guys do it all the time as it is cheap and effective.

Other things to consider is:

-Installing another "helper" leaf in the leaf stacks
-Bolt on helper spring added
-Coil over shocks
-Taller or rear air shocks (one mentioned in the "Suspension" category in the link beow)

Good info about Spitfires in general.
http://www.geocities.com/motorcity/speedway/1080/spitfaqs.html


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## Bottomfeeder (Jun 13, 2008)

Your front suspension will probably be fine with only 4 batts up there. Remember that you pulled out the engine and all of it's extras (radiator, etc). I believe that your engine was bigger than mine initially, so the springs were probably stiffer too. My springs only needed a little upgrade, so yours will probably work as is.

For the rear, though, you'll definitely need to do something. You only removed the gas tank and some exhaust pipes from the rear, and the rest is stock. I put in rear air shocks for mine, and they seem to work great. It wasn't a cakewalk putting them in, though, as the bushings had to be removed from the rubber in the shocks. Anyway, now I can raise or lower my rear end by quite a bit just by adding air pressure. If you go this route, don't forget to roll the car back and forth after adjusting the pressure to allow the independent rear suspension to correct itself to the new height.


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## ClintK (Apr 27, 2008)

gerd1022 said:


> heres a good one that i did...
> 
> http://triumphspitfire.nl/rearspringpads.html
> 
> you just replace the old rubber bushings with those teflon ones in your rear leaf spring and it adds about an inch to the rear. My machinist charged me 8 bucks to make them, and the stock was like 10. Actually, if i can find the leftover rod, i could ship you the teflon stock i have. no use for it anymore...





> 16. Remove any perished bits of rubber you find. and clean up the individual spring leaves a bit with a steel wire brush.
> 17. Restack the springs using the new discs in the indentations.


Are the teflon bushings you're talking about the "new discs" mentioned in the how-to? My Spitfire is definitely doing the rear end sag right now, but I don't remember it being this bad when the engine was still in.



tj4fa said:


> Would installing a pair of spring shackles in the back be too much of a bastardization to raise the rear of the car a bit?
> 
> The truck and 4X4 guys do it all the time as it is cheap and effective.
> 
> ...





Bottomfeeder said:


> For the rear, though, you'll definitely need to do something. You only removed the gas tank and some exhaust pipes from the rear, and the rest is stock. I put in rear air shocks for mine, and they seem to work great. It wasn't a cakewalk putting them in, though, as the bushings had to be removed from the rubber in the shocks. Anyway, now I can raise or lower my rear end by quite a bit just by adding air pressure. If you go this route, don't forget to roll the car back and forth after adjusting the pressure to allow the independent rear suspension to correct itself to the new height.


Definitely sounds like rear air shocks are the popular way to go.

Thanks for the suggestions guys, I'll look into it!


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## Bottomfeeder (Jun 13, 2008)

You're seeing the sag because your front is so light until you get some lead weight up there! Replacing those crushed rubber spacers with teflon will also keep your suspension quieter. It might be worth giving that a try first. You can always upgrade to air shocks later if you need it. Even if the car is low, it will be drivable.

If I were you, I would try to balance out the batteries with 5 and 5, front and rear. Keeping the weight balance for your car will help keep the great handling of the Spitfire.


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## ClintK (Apr 27, 2008)

Bottomfeeder said:


> You're seeing the sag because your front is so light until you get some lead weight up there! Replacing those crushed rubber spacers with teflon will also keep your suspension quieter. It might be worth giving that a try first. You can always upgrade to air shocks later if you need it. Even if the car is low, it will be drivable.
> 
> If I were you, I would try to balance out the batteries with 5 and 5, front and rear. Keeping the weight balance for your car will help keep the great handling of the Spitfire.


I'll play around with the layout and see about squeezing another in. I'm shying away from modifying the existing frame or building complex battery boxes. I'd like to keep it clean and simple. Thanks!


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## ClintK (Apr 27, 2008)

Just installed my Ammeter. Looks pretty good on the dash next to the new Voltmeter and Temperature gauge.


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## ClintK (Apr 27, 2008)

Question on my circuit breaker...
I've got the Airpax JLE-1-1-53-3-B4-250 from KTA Services. On the side it says "Use on vertical surface only, special purpose not for gen. use".

I would really prefer to mount it on its side. Both for space reasons and so it's easier to add a wire trip from the driver's seat. Any idea why it's a "vertical surface only"?


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## DIYguy (Sep 18, 2008)

ClintK said:


> Question on my circuit breaker...
> I've got the Airpax JLE-1-1-53-3-B4-250 from KTA Services. On the side it says "Use on vertical surface only, special purpose not for gen. use".
> 
> I would really prefer to mount it on its side. Both for space reasons and so it's easier to add a wire trip from the driver's seat. Any idea why it's a "vertical surface only"?


Hey Clint,

Yes, one thing about all of these hydraulic/magnetic breakers is that they were designed and are calibrated for a wall mount application. Mounting them in any other orientation will change their trip characteristics. This can actually be an advantage for many users. Mounting them horizontally (switch up) will cause the breaker trip current to be increased by 5 - 10%. You can use it mounted flat as long as the impact to trip current will not adversely affect your application. The manufacturer can adjust them to be correct for the mounting of your choosing, but you would need to order and specify.

I see u received your controller.  Kewl..

Regards,
 Gary


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## ClintK (Apr 27, 2008)

DIYguy said:


> Hey Clint,
> 
> Yes, one thing about all of these hydraulic/magnetic breakers is that they were designed and are calibrated for a wall mount application. Mounting them in any other orientation will change their trip characteristics. This can actually be an advantage for many users. Mounting them horizontally (switch up) will cause the breaker trip current to be increased by 5 - 10%. You can use it mounted flat as long as the impact to trip current will not adversely affect your application. The manufacturer can adjust them to be correct for the mounting of your choosing, but you would need to order and specify.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the info! I looked at pics of other EVers mounting breakers flat, and it seemed to work for them.


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## ClintK (Apr 27, 2008)

Over the weekend I mounted all the electrical components on a metal base.


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## Bottomfeeder (Jun 13, 2008)

ClintK said:


> Over the weekend I mounted all the electrical components on a metal base.


 Great work, Clint. I think it's interesting how different the parts of our respective Spitfires are arranged. I chose to put a few batteries over the motor, and put the contactor/shunt/breaker closer to the front. I don't know if it was the smart thing to do, but hopefully I'll know soon enough.

This weekend I had to move the location of the batteries in the rear. I lost a little more trunk space, but getting to the batteries will be a lot easier. I think that was a fair trade.

When are you going to get your batteries?


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## ClintK (Apr 27, 2008)

Bottomfeeder said:


> Great work, Clint. I think it's interesting how different the parts of our respective Spitfires are arranged. I chose to put a few batteries over the motor, and put the contactor/shunt/breaker closer to the front. I don't know if it was the smart thing to do, but hopefully I'll know soon enough.
> 
> This weekend I had to move the location of the batteries in the rear. I lost a little more trunk space, but getting to the batteries will be a lot easier. I think that was a fair trade.
> 
> When are you going to get your batteries?


For weight distribution I'm sure your approach is the way to go. I'm not expecting to have any "trunk" space - I'll just use the pseudo back seat as my trunk instead. 

I may purchase a few of my batteries at the end of the month so I can start on the battery boxes


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## Bottomfeeder (Jun 13, 2008)

ClintK said:


> For weight distribution I'm sure your approach is the way to go. I'm not expecting to have any "trunk" space - I'll just use the pseudo back seat as my trunk instead.
> 
> I may purchase a few of my batteries at the end of the month so I can start on the battery boxes


Actually, when I put the batteries in the car, I kind of regret my decision. I put 6 up front and 4 in the rear. But, I also put in a 9" motor, so my front end is heavy enough as it is. I would rather have done a 5 and 5 configuration. But, I'm committed to my mistake at this point. I have to really beef up the front suspension to handle all of the weight. I'm getting the impression that I went a little overkill on the size of my batteries and motor. I didn't want to end up with too little range/power. But, wow, those suckers weigh a lot.


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## dtbaker (Jan 5, 2008)

ClintK said:


> I may purchase a few of my batteries at the end of the month so I can start on the battery boxes


you may not wanna split the purchase and have batteries of different age... you CAN ask for 'dummies' which are just empty cases... nice a light and perfect size for designing racks rather than jack around with cardboard and be off by 1/2 inch. 

d


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## ClintK (Apr 27, 2008)

Bottomfeeder said:


> Actually, when I put the batteries in the car, I kind of regret my decision. I put 6 up front and 4 in the rear. But, I also put in a 9" motor, so my front end is heavy enough as it is. I would rather have done a 5 and 5 configuration. But, I'm committed to my mistake at this point. I have to really beef up the front suspension to handle all of the weight. I'm getting the impression that I went a little overkill on the size of my batteries and motor. I didn't want to end up with too little range/power. But, wow, those suckers weigh a lot.


What AHr are your batteries? / How much do they weight? I went for the light weight approach - motor was only 87 lbs and the batteries are only 125 AHr. I think with Lead the car's performance will be poor/mediocre but with Lithiums it could be pretty peppy.



dtbaker said:


> you may not wanna split the purchase and have batteries of different age... you CAN ask for 'dummies' which are just empty cases... nice a light and perfect size for designing racks rather than jack around with cardboard and be off by 1/2 inch.


I'll try not to buy them too far apart. Ideally something like 5 on the 31st and 5 on the 1st. That way they are on separate credit card statements.  Haven't the batteries probably been sitting for a few months before they're purchased anyways? Would a month difference in buying them matter?


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## ClintK (Apr 27, 2008)

Control box painted, looks pretty good. I'm hoping to get it wired this weekend.


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## Bottomfeeder (Jun 13, 2008)

ClintK said:


> What AHr are your batteries? / How much do they weight? I went for the light weight approach - motor was only 87 lbs and the batteries are only 125 AHr. I think with Lead the car's performance will be poor/mediocre but with Lithiums it could be pretty peppy.


For my batteries, I went with Trojan 1275s. They weigh 83 lbs each, and are 150Ah. I think the 125Ah batts will be a better choice. Yes, you might have a little less range, but you'll probably get 45-50 miles anyway. That's based on a few other Spitfire conversions.

Great to see your progress. Do you have a target date?


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## ClintK (Apr 27, 2008)

Bottomfeeder said:


> For my batteries, I went with Trojan 1275s. They weigh 83 lbs each, and are 150Ah. I think the 125Ah batts will be a better choice. Yes, you might have a little less range, but you'll probably get 45-50 miles anyway. That's based on a few other Spitfire conversions.
> 
> Great to see your progress. Do you have a target date?


If all goes perfect (yeah...) I'll have my controller/fuse/contactors wired tomorrow. Target is to have a 12V test with the controller on Sunday. Maybe 2 more months for final completion?

Question... Is wood an acceptable battery box material (for under the hood)? I've got plenty of wood working tools but nothing for welding steel. I only need something that will secure the batteries safely for 2 years - my replacement set will be Lithiums.


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## tj4fa (May 25, 2008)

ClintK said:


> Question... Is wood an acceptable battery box material (for under the hood)? I've got plenty of wood working tools but nothing for welding steel. I only need something that will secure the batteries safely for 2 years - my replacement set will be Lithiums.


Sure. I used 3/4" exterior grade plywood and it is reinforced with 1-3/16" bolted-up (spring) steel bedframe metal and the box sits on the truck frame.

It's glued, screwed, (but not tatoo'ed)is not conductive and won't corrode if any acid would spill on it.

If I need to get the motor out, all I have to do is unbolt the framing, remove the batteries and control board and then I have wide open access to the motor.


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## ClintK (Apr 27, 2008)

tj4fa said:


> Sure. I used 3/4" exterior grade plywood and it is reinforced with 1-3/16" bolted-up (spring) steel bedframe metal and the box sits on the truck frame.
> 
> It's glued, screwed, (but not tatoo'ed)is not conductive and won't corrode if any acid would spill on it.
> 
> If I need to get the motor out, all I have to do is unbolt the framing, remove the batteries and control board and then I have wide open access to the motor.


I'm glad to hear it has been done before! Thanks! I think I'll use wood.


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## Harold in CR (Sep 8, 2008)

I'm surprised that more guys have not mentioned bed rail angle. It is tough to drill, sometimes, but, I have built MANY contraptions using bed rails. It's a bit wider than 1".


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## tj4fa (May 25, 2008)

Harold in CR said:


> I'm surprised that more guys have not mentioned bed rail angle. It is tough to drill, sometimes, but, I have built MANY contraptions using bed rails. It's a bit wider than 1".


And cheap!! 

I got all the blue colored ones from Goodwill for $5-. The brown ones I got for free from my father-in-law. 

A metal cutoff saw and some good drill bits and you're on your way.


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## ClintK (Apr 27, 2008)

A friend from work had some copper pieces from an old machine that he offered to let me use in my car.

They turned out great!


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## tj4fa (May 25, 2008)

ClintK said:


> A friend from work had some copper pieces from an old machine that he offered to let me use in my car.
> 
> They turned out great!


Very cool. Much better than some clunky looking cables! 
Is that your shunt in-between your controller and Airpax CB?

If so, seems like a nice arrangement.


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## ClintK (Apr 27, 2008)

tj4fa said:


> Very cool. Much better than some clunky looking cables!
> Is that your shunt in-between your controller and Airpax CB?
> 
> If so, seems like a nice arrangement.


Thanks! Yeup, that's the shunt.


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## Voltswagen (Nov 13, 2008)

TJ
Harbor Freight has a good little 6 " Chop Saw....$39.95
I bought one and used it to cut the angle iron for my battery cages.
It worked perfect...........much better than any Sawsall.
Roy


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## ClintK (Apr 27, 2008)

Argh, my low speed test didn't work today. I'll try and explain the best I can...

I had 2 near-dead 12V batteries that I wired up to the high voltage line of my control box. I wired the car's aux 12V to the pot box microswitch & one of the contactors (with precharge). I also wired the controller's key switch. Turned the key to on, gave it "gas", and the tires didn't move. 

I did notice the voltmeter inside the car read 8V with the controller connected (normally it reads 11V). Wondering if it was the random 12V aux line under the hood I was using, I tried a different 12V aux line and the voltmeter showed 11V once again. The tires still wouldn't move.

The 8V drop didn't seem to affect any of the other systems on the car though - stereo and headlights still worked fine. I've seen the voltage drop under 10V before and my radio wouldn't work (low voltage protection?) - so that was odd to see.

This is an issue of the disaster called Spitfire wiring. I found 12V + lines not being used under the dash and under the hood, but I can't trace back to where they originate from. I don't see how they originally wired the car such that using one of the 12V lines from under the hood could cause that much of a drop on the voltmeter (given I don't really know what voltage I'm reading with my voltmeter). Could it be I'm reading voltage to the instrument lighting and there is a light always on under the hood? Hmmm.

I think this has convinced me to bypass the car's existing electrical system and install my own fuse box for the EV components.


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## ClintK (Apr 27, 2008)

I added a fuse block and attempted a second low speed test. Still no luck - turns out the controller has an 80V cutoff so I won't be able to test it until I get my full pack in. The Spitfire is much happier with my new electrical system though (at least according to the car's voltmeter).

My wife bought me tires for Christmas that I tried to put on today. Upon closer inspection of the wheels I noticed they are pretty trashed. They have rust and several dents. I'm actually surprised one of them still holds air.

The Spitfire has a bolt pattern of 4-95.25 - completely nonstandard so the junkyard is out. http://www.victoriabritish.com has a few styles of wheels, but they start at $660. I tried 3 local tire stores but they'll have to call their suppliers on Monday to get me more information. Apparently they may be able to take an unfinished 13" wheel and drill my bolt pattern into it. I don't mind a fresh set of wheels on the car, but I'd like to keep it as inexpensive as possible.


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## tj4fa (May 25, 2008)

Here's a good rim for sale on eBay. 

PM me and I'll tell you how to snipe on eBay and save the bidding wars.


http://motors.shop.ebay.com/merchant/gopherfrog_W0QQ_nkwZQQ_armrsZ1QQ_fromZ

Here's a web page that looks like it searches for Spitfire Parts on Craigslists and I noticed some ads for steel rims there.

http://www.jaxed.com/cgi-bin/sd.cgi?fil=triumph 

For other people looking in, just change the vehicle name on the end of the link to yours and it will search Craigslist for your make as well (I'll think I may make a special post about this).


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## ClintK (Apr 27, 2008)

tj4fa said:


> Here's a good rim for sale on eBay.
> 
> PM me and I'll tell you how to snipe on eBay and save the bidding wars.
> 
> ...


I like jaxed.com! Much better than going through different craig's list sites. These http://austin.craigslist.org/pts/1091280439.html wheels don't look too bad, and since they're in Austin I can have my family pick them up and hold them for me.

I did another walk-around of my car. Looks like only one wheel is really bad, the others are usable. So that ebay offer may be the best. Thanks for the finds!

EDIT: Oh, one more thing. That ebay wheel is significantly shinier than my current wheels. Do I just need to do a good scrub down or is there a good solution to use so they all look the same? Thanks!


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## tj4fa (May 25, 2008)

Cool! (pm sent)

As far as the stock steel rims, you could clean them up and use some silver wheel spray paint to redo them. 

You might even find some aerodynamic wheel covers to put over them.


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## ClintK (Apr 27, 2008)

I found these wheels for sale... is a little rust like this a nonissue or something I should be concerned about? Thanks!


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## tj4fa (May 25, 2008)

It doesn't look too bad to me. 

Just need a little work with a wire brush or other abrasive to knock the rust down and then prep and re-paint them with silver wheel paint.

Will you get a good deal?


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## ClintK (Apr 27, 2008)

tj4fa said:


> It doesn't look too bad to me.
> 
> Just need a little work with a wire brush or other abrasive to knock the rust down and then prep and re-paint them with silver wheel paint.
> 
> Will you get a good deal?


He's got 4, asking $25/each plus shipping. The Ebay wheel is only $10 (right now) + $22 in shipping. I may go for the Ebay wheel and if I don't win it buy this one. Unfortunately Phoenix craigslist doesn't have any Spitfire wheels listed.

Hmm, silver or shall I repaint all 4 and go for a more adventurous color?  Thanks for the tips!


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## tj4fa (May 25, 2008)

You could just make you some aerodynamic wheel covers like this guy and cover up the rust.

http://priuschat.com/forums/prius-m...e-flat-aerodynamic-aluminum-wheel-covers.html


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## PatricioIN (Jun 13, 2008)

ClintK said:


> I found these wheels for sale... is a little rust like this a nonissue or something I should be concerned about? Thanks!


those wheels are very cool.. just have them sandblasted or chemically stripped and repaint.. Very nice classic look.


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## ClintK (Apr 27, 2008)

My wheel has arrived! Thanks tj4fa for the ebay lead. It looks the same size as the others - I hope it is!  

I've gone back and forth countless times now on Lithium or Lead - final decision, I'm doing Lithium. PoweredbyDC's bulk buy is just too good to pass up http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showthread.php/thundersky-bulk-order-next-week-30637.html


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## ClintK (Apr 27, 2008)

ClintK said:


> My wheel has arrived! Thanks tj4fa for the ebay lead. It looks the same size as the others - I hope it is!


Uhg, I couldn't tell from the pictures beforehand, but looking side by side the style is slightly different.


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## Bottomfeeder (Jun 13, 2008)

ClintK said:


> I've gone back and forth countless times now on Lithium or Lead - final decision, I'm doing Lithium. PoweredbyDC's bulk buy is just too good to pass up http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showthread.php/thundersky-bulk-order-next-week-30637.html


Awesome!
You'll definitely have better performance if you keep your Spit nice and light. I look forward to watching you put Lithium in, as I will most likely upgrade to Lithium when my lead needs replacing in about 5 years.


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## ClintK (Apr 27, 2008)

What material and thickness would you all recommend for the supporting plate for my batteries? It will need to support 30 cells, 100Ahr LiFePO4, about 215 lbs, 17.12" x 26.77".

6061 Aluminum? 3/8" thick? 1/2" thick?
I could pickup steel as well, but it's so heavy I'd rather avoid it.

Trying to keep the batteries fixed on top of the aluminum could be a challenge (since I can't weld it). Any recommendations on that?


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## RKM (Jun 9, 2008)

Clint,

IMO the design of the batt box needs to be figured out before the material is selected. The thickness of material required will depend on how the box is structured. I chose steel for ease of use, cost and availability (have in stock).

My batt box in the trunk holds 18 180Ah cells and is very close the the weight and dimensions you have specified. I've made a skeleton frame out of 1X1X.125 steel angle, a bit of 2x2x.125 angle and a bit of 2X.25 flat. I haven't weighed it but would estimate it weighs less than 20 pounds. The cells will be arranged in two rows of 9. They will be strapped down to the box using SS strapping. The frame will be lined with .125 polyproplene and a polycarbonate lid will be added.

Check out Gary's (DIYguy) batt boxes as well. He has made efficient use of a steel frame as well.

Rob


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## ClintK (Apr 27, 2008)

The poorly drawn light green box is the planned location for the metal plate. The dark green areas are attachment points to bolt the plate onto the car's frame. There will also be vertical pieces coming up from the sides of the aluminum plate (not shown) to keep the batteries from sliding off.

I'm thinking a simple aluminum plate over a steel frame because:
1. The LiFePO4 cells have a much smaller footprint requiring significantly more number of steel beams to be welded together to support each one.
2. The battery box will be attached not at the edges but within the plate.
3. I don't know how to weld / don't have the equipment to learn.

Is that reasonable?


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## DIYguy (Sep 18, 2008)

ClintK said:


> The poorly drawn light green box is the planned location for the metal plate. The dark green areas are attachment points to bolt the plate onto the car's frame. There will also be vertical pieces coming up from the sides of the aluminum plate (not shown) to keep the batteries from sliding off.
> 
> I'm thinking a simple aluminum plate over a steel frame because:
> 1. The LiFePO4 cells have a much smaller footprint requiring significantly more number of steel beams to be welded together to support each one.
> ...


Hey Clint,

Sounds like you are getting close ...and anxious... lol. 
A couple of points to consider....
You don't necessarily need a cross support for every battery. It would depend on the frame and "platform" or base in it.
Be careful when combining steel and aluminum. Look up "galvanic action". Stainless Steel fasteners should be used with Al. 
Ensure you design your structure to handle not just the weight (as in sitting the batteries on a table) but also the inertia involved with hard braking and even impact and roll-over. I know lithium is much lighter,.. but I'm sure your pack still has some significant mass.
The last thing you want is to be driving your car and worrying about such things. 
For those not versed with Aluminum, I would tend to lean towards steel. Yes, Aluminum is about 1/3 the weight, but you need to know how to join it properly and how it will perform in service for it's entire life. What I have seen with most Al designs is either a significant overkill (usually done by people who have had experience with failure) which takes away from the intended weight save... or a significant under design which carries a risk of failure. (Adapter plates and spacers are not part of this consideration as they are not a "structural design" per se.)

I'm looking fwd to seeing this bumblebee buzzzzz!


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## ClintK (Apr 27, 2008)

You sound hesitant with the aluminum. Would you consider my large flat plate idea acceptable if it were steel instead of aluminum? 



DIYguy said:


> I'm looking fwd to seeing this bumblebee buzzzzz!


EVComponents just posted that the LiFePO4 batteries have finally arrived and will be shipped shortly. I could be fully done in the next month!


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## DIYguy (Sep 18, 2008)

ClintK said:


> You sound hesitant with the aluminum. Would you consider my large flat plate idea acceptable if it were steel instead of aluminum?


Hesitant, yes...against it, no. I think it comes back to what Rob, aka RKM, said earlier.... "the design of the batt box needs to be figured out before the material is selected. The thickness of material required will depend on how the box is structured."
I'm not really sure what your intended design looks like....so it is hard for me to comment. It's unlikely that you need a heavy plate of any description. An appropriate frame-work can carry the intended load and beyond this a lining of plastic, sheet metal, or even exterior plywood should suffice.

I look at my build as a great experience to learn, as much as the joy from the outcome. I've learned a ton already. If you tackle the welding (with steel that is..lol), you will have one more feather in your cap.... and you will be able to construct what you want rather than what you are currently able to. I often correct my kids (no disrespect intended) when they say "I can't" and suggest they say "I don't know how". Sorry for the sermon... wasn't intending one... 


ClintK said:


> EVComponents just posted that the LiFePO4 batteries have finally arrived and will be shipped shortly. I could be fully done in the next month!


Awesome!


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## ClintK (Apr 27, 2008)

DIYguy said:


> I look at my build as a great experience to learn, as much as the joy from the outcome. I've learned a ton already. If you tackle the welding (with steel that is..lol), you will have one more feather in your cap.... and you will be able to construct what you want rather than what you are currently able to. I often correct my kids (no disrespect intended) when they say "I can't" and suggest they say "I don't know how". Sorry for the sermon... wasn't intending one...


Heh, I have that same mentality (I'm converting a car after all!). When I move at the end of the year I fully intend on picking up a welder and learning how to use it; it's just not feasible to purchase one where I'm at now.

I've got a couple friends that can weld, but they're very busy and I've called in a lot of favors from them for the car already! 

I'll fire up AutoCAD later today and put together some drawings of my idea to post.


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## DIYguy (Sep 18, 2008)

ClintK said:


> Heh, I have that same mentality (I'm converting a car after all!). When I move at the end of the year I fully intend on picking up a welder and learning how to use it; it's just not feasible to purchase one where I'm at now.


Miller Maxstar 1500....it's a little inverter about the size of your lunchbox. About 14 lbs I think. It can be powered with 120 or 240VAC. You can get one SMAW (stick) only or get the lift arc GTAW (TIG) unit also. These are awesome for around the house. Just an FYI, you can't weld Al TIG with it though...as this has a DC output and u need AC (with high freq start unit) for Al. 

Cheers.


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## ClintK (Apr 27, 2008)

My LiFePO4s arrived! If I had 1 more inch I could fit them all up front, but unfortunately I'll have to split 20 up front, 10 in the back. At least my weight distribution will be better now.


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## RE Farmer (Aug 8, 2009)

I'm new to your thread, but have checked out your blog. You've done a nice job on both the car and blog.

Like you I've decided to go LFP but with an AC31 motor (about the same wt. as your 6.7"DC). According to my calcs, I should end up about the stock curb wt. for my MG. Therefore, won't need to beef up the suspension. I'm guessing you might also end up close to stock wt. Have kept as close track of your wts as your costs?

I was wondering what tires you put on. 13"ers are hard to come by. I found on TireRack.com some Sumitomo HTRs 165/70R-13 that weigh 14# and have 51psi inflation which I'm guessing would have LRR.

I'm quite a ways behind you on my build (glider stage), and am eagerly waiting to see what your performance will be.


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## RE Farmer (Aug 8, 2009)

ClintK said:


> My LiFePO4s arrived! If I had 1 more inch I could fit them all up front, but unfortunately I'll have to split 20 up front, 10 in the back. At least my weight distribution will be better now.


I'm not sure about your space under the car, but my MG has a large area ahead of the rear axle where my electric fuel pump was, below the cargo area behind the seats (your 'back seat' area). It doesn't have the best accessibility, but keeps the wt low and between the axles for better handling and wt distribution. That way I get to keep my limited trunk space.


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## ClintK (Apr 27, 2008)

RE Farmer said:


> I'm new to your thread, but have checked out your blog. You've done a nice job on both the car and blog.
> 
> Like you I've decided to go LFP but with an AC31 motor (about the same wt. as your 6.7"DC). According to my calcs, I should end up about the stock curb wt. for my MG. Therefore, won't need to beef up the suspension. I'm guessing you might also end up close to stock wt. Have kept as close track of your wts as your costs?
> 
> ...


Thanks!

The tires are 185-70R13. My wife gave them to me for Christmas, so I don't know where she got them from.

I should be keeping track of weight but haven't been. I don't own a scale and didn't have the motivation to pick one up before I started ripping apart the engine. I do think I'll be close to the stock weight and balance though.

I'm not too concerned with space in the trunk. I figure if I get groceries or anything I'll use the pseudo back seat anyways.

My sister wants to convert a car soon and we'll do an AC conversion for hers. Let me know how that AC31 works out.


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## RE Farmer (Aug 8, 2009)

What brand and max psi are your tires?

Re: scales: I bought a new, electronic, 400# industrial scale off eBay for ~$60 including shipping. I figured I could weigh each wheel w/ one scale then sum for the total weight and distribution since the original curb wt was ~1550#. I also weighed parts and measured their location as they came off. I'm currently down to 1130#, over 400# of ICE components (and mouse and snake nests, etc.) removed. I will have to rewire the back half of the car since the mice chewed through wires while the car was in storage; they're awful brittle anyway.


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## ClintK (Apr 27, 2008)

RE Farmer said:


> What brand and max psi are your tires?
> 
> Re: scales: I bought a new, electronic, 400# industrial scale off eBay for ~$60 including shipping. I figured I could weigh each wheel w/ one scale then sum for the total weight and distribution since the original curb wt was ~1550#. I also weighed parts and measured their location as they came off. I'm currently down to 1130#, over 400# of ICE components (and mouse and snake nests, etc.) removed. I will have to rewire the back half of the car since the mice chewed through wires while the car was in storage; they're awful brittle anyway.


Post some pictures! 

The tires are Kumho Solus KR21 P185/70R13, 44 psi max. I did not research them / buy them, but my wife got the advice from xrotaryguy (once was a frequent visitor of this site but I think he's been busy building an electric race car from scratch). I definitely trust his opinion on what would be good tires for the car though.


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## ClintK (Apr 27, 2008)

There are so many MGB and Spitfire conversions...

We need to start the SBC (Small British Car) Electric Conversion Club.


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## RE Farmer (Aug 8, 2009)

ClintK said:


> There are so many MGB and Spitfire conversions...
> 
> We need to start the SBC (Small British Car) Electric Conversion Club.


That's a good idea. I've been doing searches to find small car conversions since our light weights negate at some of the need for large batt packs.

Re:Tires: The Kumo KR21 are one of the tires I was considering. They make a 155/80R-13 (my original tire size) @14# and a 175/70R-13 @15#. I may have seen the same discussion a s your wife, and started my search there.

Curiously, when I looked for the tires used on the original Honda Insight, they used Bridgestone RE92: 165/65R-14 @13# and 44 psi, but their 165/65R-13 tire is 19# and 35 psi (6# heavier for a smaller tire).

Physics wise, a larger diameter tire has less rolling friction, but I'm leaning towards the higher pressure Sumitomos with a shorter profile (less frontal area) to be less total drag. Additionally, the smaller diameter would have less rotational inertia (quicker acceleration=less amps) for the same weight.


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## RE Farmer (Aug 8, 2009)

Did you hook up your motor speed sensor to your original tach? I think our tachs are electrically driven. In my case, the max. motor speed is exactly the same a the ICE redline (6500 rpm) so it would work well at maintaining the original look and save a few bucks for one less gauge. Although, the didgital readout gauge that comes with my motor shows revs, it would have t/b serially selected, and I would rather it display volts, amps or kwh.


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## ClintK (Apr 27, 2008)

RE Farmer said:


> Did you hook up your motor speed sensor to your original tach? I think our tachs are electrically driven. In my case, the max. motor speed is exactly the same a the ICE redline (6500 rpm) so it would work well at maintaining the original look and save a few bucks for one less gauge. Although, the didgital readout gauge that comes with my motor shows revs, it would have t/b serially selected, and I would rather it display volts, amps or kwh.


I haven't figured out the tach yet. If you know how to do it though please share!


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## RE Farmer (Aug 8, 2009)

No, I haven't got that far - I'm still ordering parts, no installs yet. But, I did read another thread (DIY or EVDL) about another person whose tach had the same ICE redline as the motor going in and planned to use the same gauge. I'll see if I can find the ref. or you might try doing a search for tach hookups.


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## MJ Monterey (Aug 20, 2009)

ClintK said:


> There are so many MGB and Spitfire conversions...
> 
> We need to start the SBC (Small British Car) Electric Conversion Club.


Scions of Lucus, EV Division?

http://www.team.net/sol/

Yes I own a '70 Mark III and will keep it ICE. However I may reopen some networks to find a different car as a glider. 

I wonder which crate has my spare set of GT6 brakes and spindles?


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## RE Farmer (Aug 8, 2009)

MJ Monterey said:


> Scions of Lucus, EV Division?
> 
> http://www.team.net/sol/


Scions of Lucas, EV Division ... hmmm... has a nice ring to it. Looked at the site. Good source of chassis info, but may not be much help to EV'ers trying to convert, and could get nasty - I've already been lambasted by an associate for 'destroying' a classic.

I'd prefer to keep the thread here (DIY-EV) as EVing is what our discussion is about. However, a new thread for BrEVs (British EVs) and other under 1800# curb wt vehicles would be a good ideas. I'm starting to feel like I've hijacked Clint's Spit. conversion thread.


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## ClintK (Apr 27, 2008)

RE Farmer said:


> Scions of Lucas, EV Division ... hmmm... has a nice ring to it. Looked at the site. Good source of chassis info, but may not be much help to EV'ers trying to convert, and could get nasty - I've already been lambasted by an associate for 'destroying' a classic.
> 
> I'd prefer to keep the thread here (DIY-EV) as EVing is what our discussion is about. However, a new thread for BrEVs (British EVs) and other under 1800# curb wt vehicles would be a good ideas. I'm starting to feel like I've hijacked Clint's Spit. conversion thread.


Can't hijack my thread by talking about MGBs, I almost got one of those instead to convert.

Scions of Lucas does sound good. There are the various "club groups" at the bottom of the DIY forum page. I could see moving a few of the bigger build threads (Bottomfeeder, mine, that high school crew that converted the Spitfire in like 2 weeks) to it if everyone agreed. New ones could start there too. 

No one has given me a hard time for "destroying" a classic yet. I think I know why though... My father in law had a Spitfire when he was in college. He said it took 3 Spitfires to keep 1 running. Any way to make a Lucas car more reliable can't be all that bad!


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## ClintK (Apr 27, 2008)

Just built yesterday, fun with the battery box!


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## RE Farmer (Aug 8, 2009)

ClintK said:


> Can't hijack my thread by talking about MGBs, I almost got one of those instead to convert.
> 
> Scions of Lucas does sound good. There are the various "club groups" at the bottom of the DIY forum page. I could see moving a few of the bigger build threads (Bottomfeeder, mine, that high school crew that converted the Spitfire in like 2 weeks) to it if everyone agreed. New ones could start there too.
> 
> No one has given me a hard time for "destroying" a classic yet. I think I know why though... My father in law had a Spitfire when he was in college. He said it took 3 Spitfires to keep 1 running. Any way to make a Lucas car more reliable can't be all that bad!


I would like to emphasize lightness of the pre-1980 Brit cars or other similar cars like original VW bugs, as lightness is the name of the game for EVs.

OTOH, I'd gladly sell the ICE parts to anyone who wants them to help keep their ICE classic running.

I've been working on Brit cars, and VW Bugs, off & on for decades. My first one was TR2.5 (1957 TR3 with a small mouth/grill like a TR2) in 1969, plus a '59 -3 for parts. I always had several in my drive that I worked on for others to raise some cash while I was in HS and early college. Boy, I wish I had that ol' TR3 back - loved it . I would cost me $15-20K to replace it, (I think I paid ~$250 for both TR's in '69.


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## MJ Monterey (Aug 20, 2009)

The DIY garage page for your car is saying 13 miles freeway 27 around town. 

Does the battery change increase your range?


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## ClintK (Apr 27, 2008)

MJ Monterey said:


> The DIY garage page for your car is saying 13 miles freeway 27 around town.
> 
> Does the battery change increase your range?


I'm only using 100 AHr cells, so I'm thinking my range will be about the same but acceleration significantly better. In the future I may add a parallel 100 AHr pack to double my range, but it's not required.


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## ClintK (Apr 27, 2008)

Batteries in the car!


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## RE Farmer (Aug 8, 2009)

Looks good. BTW, did you consider straddling the motor (10 cells on one side and 10 on the other) with your front pack? I seem to recall you're using a 6.7" ADC; is there room for such an arrangement? I'm trying to keep the battery weight between the axles for better wt. distrubution and handling, but I don't have as much room under the bonnet as you do.


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## ClintK (Apr 27, 2008)

RE Farmer said:


> Looks good. BTW, did you consider straddling the motor (10 cells on one side and 10 on the other) with your front pack? I seem to recall you're using a 6.7" ADC; is there room for such an arrangement? I'm trying to keep the battery weight between the axles for better wt. distrubution and handling, but I don't have as much room under the bonnet as you do.


On the driver's side of the motor, the steering rod and brake lines are in the way. On the other side, I could fit maybe 3 cells if I mounted my control box higher.

If you were fancy with a welder, it's "doable" to get a few more cells in there, but I wanted to keep everything within the KISS principle.


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## RE Farmer (Aug 8, 2009)

Awhile back you asked about hooking up your tach...I ran across this thread today:
http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showthread.php?t=33801

I have the same steering shaft problem on the left side and some clutch lines on the right that might be moved. I too am trying to avoid cutting metal, at least in areas near the frame for structural reasons, but I do want to keep the weight low.


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## ClintK (Apr 27, 2008)

RE Farmer said:


> Awhile back you asked about hooking up your tach...I ran across this thread today:
> http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showthread.php?t=33801
> 
> I have the same steering shaft problem on the left side and some clutch lines on the right that might be moved. I too am trying to avoid cutting metal, at least in areas near the frame for structural reasons, but I do want to keep the weight low.


Thanks for the link. I've browsed through probably half a dozen ways to do the tach - just haven't built up the motivation yet to sit down and figure it out for my Spit.

Actually, on that note...
Until I get a working tach, I'd like to figure out the speeds I should shift at. So using the following websites:
http://www.triumphspitfire.com/Size.html
http://www.angelfire.com/fl/procrastination/rear.html
Tire Diameter: 23"
4th 1.00, 3rd 1.39, 2nd 2.16, 1st 3.5, rev 3.99
Final Drive: 3.89
Overall 4th 3.89, 3rd 5.42, 2nd 8.40, 1st 13.62, Rev 15.51

I've seen max RPMs for the L91-4003 from 6500 to 8000. How about I make my target RPM 4000-6000 for best cooling/efficiency without getting too close to max?
1st gear would give me: 20mph - 30mph
2nd gear would give me: 32mph - 49mph
3rd gear would give me: 50mph - 76mph

Opinions? Sanity check / does all that sound reasonable?


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

The numbers look about right. 

It is how I did it many years ago when I changed from a petrol to a diesel in my Land Rover. Tach sensors were not so easily available then so I eventually put a set of distributor points on my crankshaft pulley. Worked until the first time I went off road!

Need to make sure that you are measuring your wheel radius from the ground up to the centre to allow for the flat spot at the bottom of the tyre.


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## ClintK (Apr 27, 2008)

Woodsmith said:


> Need to make sure that you are measuring your wheel radius from the ground up to the centre to allow for the flat spot at the bottom of the tyre.


Good call, actually seems like my measurement of my tires last night in the dark wasn't the most accurate anyways! From ground to center * 2 = 21.5"

Recalculated numbers:
1st gear would give me: 19mph - 28mph <-- Low-speed/Neighborhood
2nd gear would give me: 30mph - 46mph <-- City streets
3rd gear would give me: 47mph - 71mph <-- Highway
Looks like that will work nicely!


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## RE Farmer (Aug 8, 2009)

ClintK said:


> Until I get a working tach, I'd like to figure out the speeds I should shift at. So using the following websites:
> http://www.triumphspitfire.com/Size.html
> http://www.angelfire.com/fl/procrastination/rear.html
> Tire Diameter: 23"
> ...


What I've wondered is whether it is better/more efficient (i.e. which would use less energy) to run higher rpm/lower gear or lower rpm/higher gear. Usually, w/ICE you want to use the latter to save gas; that's why OD transmission/gears were added to transmissions. Is it different for EVs? I've seen posts that say higher rev's use fewer amps. Does that mean less energy is being used, or is the controller just cranking up the voltage and still using more energy at the higher rpm? Additionally, is it the same for ac and dc motors? I figured I would have to wait until I completed my EV and do some experimenting.


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## ClintK (Apr 27, 2008)

RE Farmer said:


> What I've wondered is whether it is better/more efficient (i.e. which would use less energy) to run higher rpm/lower gear or lower rpm/higher gear. Usually, w/ICE you want to use the latter to save gas; that's why OD transmission/gears were added to transmissions. Is it different for EVs? I've seen posts that say higher rev's use fewer amps. Does that mean less energy is being used, or is the controller just cranking up the voltage and still using more energy at the higher rpm? Additionally, is it the same for ac and dc motors? I figured I would have to wait until I completed my EV and do some experimenting.


From what I've read, it's better for efficiency and cooling to run electric motors are higher RPM/lower gear. High voltage is better that high amperage (less heat loss). And since (most) electric motors are air cooled, the faster they spin the more air circulation they get. Should be the same principle for AC motors.


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## ClintK (Apr 27, 2008)

The car had its maiden voyage today! (Actually 2 because I just did a night drive with my wife through the neighborhoods with the top down!) 

Acceleration is very poor from a stop, I'm asking my motor controller guy for help. Until that gets worked out, I'll be posting most updates on that specific controller thread: http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showthread.php?p=142582#post142582


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## dtbaker (Jan 5, 2008)

so... refresh memory for us that haven't followed the thread.... you have how many volt system (how many of what batteries), and what size motor? what kind of controller?

starting in 1st for me is WAY more zippy than 2nd.....

your shift points sound about right. I had a similar deal with no tach in car, and just put stickers on the speedo at calced redlines.
http://www.envirokarma.org/ev/13.Instruments.shtml


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## ClintK (Apr 27, 2008)

dtbaker said:


> so... refresh memory for us that haven't followed the thread.... you have how many volt system (how many of what batteries), and what size motor? what kind of controller?
> 
> starting in 1st for me is WAY more zippy than 2nd.....
> 
> ...


96V 100 AHr LiFePO4, 30 cells total. Electrocraft 400A motor controller. 6.7" ADC-L91-4003. I'm also in the garage http://www.diyelectriccar.com/garage/cars/53


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## dtbaker (Jan 5, 2008)

ClintK said:


> 96V 100 AHr LiFePO4, 30 cells total. Electrocraft 400A motor controller. 6.7" ADC-L91-4003. I'm also in the garage http://www.diyelectriccar.com/garage/cars/53


hhhmm, you should have pretty good acceleration, but not overwhelming with the 6.7" motor. Too bad you didn't go for a 8" ! perhaps your controller is limiting the A too much?

When you 'floor it' from a stop how many amps does it pull?


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## dtbaker (Jan 5, 2008)

I was just checking out your Blog build site... didn't se a line item for volt/amp or multi-meter gauging.... what are you using? And how about for BMS, are you sure the cells are balanced?

lastly, I would highly recommend running your main cables that are under the car through some PVC at least.... to protect from rocks, speed bumps, or cuts, etc


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## ClintK (Apr 27, 2008)

dtbaker said:


> hhhmm, you should have pretty good acceleration, but not overwhelming with the 6.7" motor. Too bad you didn't go for a 8" ! perhaps your controller is limiting the A too much?
> 
> When you 'floor it' from a stop how many amps does it pull?


Maybe 20 max? If I push any more it cuts off. I've been talking to the motor controller manufacturer, and he thinks it may be the low voltage protection (I was originally going to use 120V Lead).



dtbaker said:


> I was just checking out your Blog build site... didn't se a line item for volt/amp or multi-meter gauging.... what are you using? And how about for BMS, are you sure the cells are balanced?


I checked the batteries with a voltmeter - they're all within .01 volts. No BMS yet, will be getting the Volt Blochers. I have an ammeter mounted, no permanent voltmeter yet.



dtbaker said:


> lastly, I would highly recommend running your main cables that are under the car through some PVC at least.... to protect from rocks, speed bumps, or cuts, etc


Definitely, I have many odds and ends to still clean up.


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## ClintK (Apr 27, 2008)

Recharged the batteries again and took her for another short drive around the neighborhood. Batteries immediately after charging were generally around 3.4 to 3.5 V/Cell with one at 3.7! Batteries immediately after driving were 3.31 +/- 0.01.

I've got the timing down for shifting much better, and was able to up and down shift very smoothly. With the controller adjustments I would call the car drivable on public roads, but I'm worried about hills when I head back to Texas.


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## ClintK (Apr 27, 2008)

The car is legal!

Arizona let me do a 90 day nonresident permit for $15 (I move back to the Great State of Texas in December.) No inspection required. USAA insured the car no problem!

Now Texas has vehicle inspections, so I may have another small hurdle when I get back.


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## RE Farmer (Aug 8, 2009)

ClintK said:


> The car is legal!
> 
> Arizona let me do a 90 day nonresident permit for $15 (I move back to the Great State of Texas in December.) No inspection required. USAA insured the car no problem!
> 
> Now Texas has vehicle inspections, so I may have another small hurdle when I get back.


As I recall, TX inspections are for safety - lights, brakes, horn, etc. - so it shouldn't be a problem.

Good to hear USAA was no problem; I'm insured by them also and was concerned that they might have a problem with an older car let alone an EV. Did you get full coverage or just liability?


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## ClintK (Apr 27, 2008)

RE Farmer said:


> As I recall, TX inspections are for safety - lights, brakes, horn, etc. - so it shouldn't be a problem.
> 
> Good to hear USAA was no problem; I'm insured by them also and was concerned that they might have a problem with an older car let alone an EV. Did you get full coverage or just liability?


Yeup I think I'll be okay on the inspection. Full coverage was like $50 more for 6 months, so I went for it. I asked how much they'd reimburse me if the car was a total loss (since I've put far more money into the car than its "worth"), but they wouldn't give me a number. They said if I kept receipts for what I've purchased it would help if I ever had a claim. I didn't keep the receipts, but I do have a detailed log of what I purchased.

I also talked to their classic car department to try and get a higher declared value, but turns out that's really for people that have got their mint condition classic which only comes out once every other month. They required the car to be fully garaged and all drivers have at least 10 years experience. So a no.

Side note: The insurance agent asked me how many miles I would be driving. I told her its maximum range is 20 miles, so I guarantee I won't drive more than that a day.


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## ClintK (Apr 27, 2008)

Wife and I took the car up to Target for some groceries. About 6 miles round trip.  The car is so tiny, we were looking up at motorcyclists! 

Controller was warm upon return, motor was hot. Tells me what I need to spend effort on cooling first! Definitely need to up the acceleration before we hit another stoplight again though.


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## tj4fa (May 25, 2008)

ClintK said:


> Wife and I took the car up to Target for some groceries. About 6 miles round trip.  The car is so tiny, we were looking up at motorcyclists!
> 
> Controller was warm upon return, motor was hot. Tells me what I need to spend effort on cooling first! Definitely need to up the acceleration before we hit another stoplight again though.


Could motor timing be a problem with your low-end performance and motor getting hot? (Hopefully someone smarter than me can chime in here).


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## tj4fa (May 25, 2008)

dtbaker said:


> I was just checking out your Blog build site... didn't se a line item for volt/amp or multi-meter gauging.... what are you using? And how about for BMS, are you sure the cells are balanced?


Could this "poor man's BMS" zener diode battery regulator work for limiting the upper end voltage for Lifepo4 batteries? 

I'm thinking about building some for my 6V LA batteries.

http://www.electricformula.com/MiscInfo.html


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## Bottomfeeder (Jun 13, 2008)

It does seem odd that your motor is so hot. I'm not sure how your 6.7"er was set up initially. But, it's worth asking the manufacturer if they have any suggestions on timing.

Spitfires sure are small though. I've delighted more than a couple children who were enjoying seeing the toy car. I don't need to understand Spanish to figure out what a "carito" is.


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## ClintK (Apr 27, 2008)

I did spend quite a bit of time at very low speeds / low RPMs in the short distance which probably wasn't good for motor cooling. I'm surprised (impressed?) by how cool the controller was compared to the motor.

The motor is reversible, and even though I'm not using that capability now, I'm not sure I want to mess with its timing if I don't have to. I'm still thinking the controller is the culprit for the low end performance. Once that is beefed up the motor will spend less time at low RPM.

At some point I'm going to pick up these for battery balancing: http://www.voltblocher.com/


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## RE Farmer (Aug 8, 2009)

ClintK said:


> Wife and I took the car up to Target for some groceries. About 6 miles round trip.  The car is so tiny, we were looking up at motorcyclists!


Wait 'til night-time. Your eye level is right at most cars' headlight level, so it seems everyone has their highbeams on. 

Re: Insurance - I agree, carrying comp., for the additional $100/yr is worth it considering the money you've put into it. Where is TX are you moving? If Houston or some such place, I would make sure the LiFePOs are covered as they are highly prized by vandals/thieves.

Hook 'em Horns.


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## ClintK (Apr 27, 2008)

RE Farmer said:


> Wait 'til night-time. Your eye level is right at most cars' headlight level, so it seems everyone has their highbeams on.
> 
> Re: Insurance - I agree, carrying comp., for the additional $100/yr is worth it considering the money you've put into it. Where is TX are you moving? If Houston or some such place, I would make sure the LiFePOs are covered as they are highly prized by vandals/thieves.
> 
> Hook 'em Horns.


Moving to San Marcos, but I grew up in Austin & graduated from U.T. Austin.


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## RE Farmer (Aug 8, 2009)

ClintK said:


> Moving to San Marcos, but I grew up in Austin & graduated from U.T. Austin.


Cool! I'm in Austin once or twice a year; perhaps I could stop by once you're established.


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## ClintK (Apr 27, 2008)

RE Farmer said:


> Cool! I'm in Austin once or twice a year; perhaps I could stop by once you're established.


Sure, you're more than welcome to stop by and take a drive.


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## ClintK (Apr 27, 2008)

So it has been a few years since my last post! Here's the short version... I purchased some acreage just before moving back to Texas. Controller issues prevented me from getting the car inspected / road legal right away when I moved back, and I got side-tracked building up the raw land. Late last year I sold the land so now I have time (and money) for the Spitfire project again! My goal is fully road legal and tearing up the road by May.

Turns out cars don't sit idle very well. (Actually maybe they sit idle fine, they just accumulate all the same problems regardless if you're driving them or not!)

- When I got back in the car to test drive it, the brake pedal was sitting on the floor. So I replaced the brake master cylinder (4 bolts? I love Spitfires).
- Tried bleeding the brakes but nothing came out. So I replaced the front flexible brake lines. Now I can bleed the brakes.
- The brakes work now, but they're very poor (foot has to be almost all the way down before they're effective, although they're probably where they were at 3 years ago).
- Obviously I had to buy a new 12V auxiliary battery as well.

I'm hoping the rear brakes just need adjusting (that's the last suggestion in my Haynes manual anyways). I'll try that next weekend.

My DC-DC converter seems to have gone bad. Voltage across my 12V auxiliary battery is the same regardless if the converter is running or not (and the 12V battery slowly drained down while I was running tests with the car despite the converter running).

As a test, I disconnected the converter's 12V output from the + terminal of the 12V battery and checked the voltage across the output - it was something like 0.25V. Even if there is no load on the DC-DC converter, shouldn't it still show 12V?

I'm running through the checklist for a Texas safety inspection now...
- About a third of the lights illuminated on the car right away.
- About a third of the lights illuminated on the car after I bumped them with my hand.
- About a third of the lights would not illuminate at all.

I went light socket by light socket, cleaning them and replacing bulbs as necessary. Everything works except for the brake lights now. I found the plastic switch at the brake pedal that completes the circuit (to illuminate the brake lights) in 4 pieces on the floor board. (Seriously, how do these things fall apart with the car just sitting in a garage!?) So I'm ordering a new switch from British Victoria so I can have brake lights again...

I re-wired my 2nd contactor so it is not triggered by the foot pedal. I'm hoping the controller is happier with that. I did a short test drive up/down the street in second gear and the car performance was good.

I don't want to over-stress the controller or the transmission (from clutchless shifting), so my goal is to just drive the car in 2nd for now.
Does anyone have a source for the max RPM of an ADC L91-4003 motor? 6,000 should be safe but I imagine it would be higher?

Looks like my gear ratio is: 8.4 for 2nd gear ? (http://www.triumphspitfire.com/Size.html)
If my motor is spinning at 6,000 RPM, then my wheels are at: 714 RPM ?
Radii of my tires are about 11" => 2*pi*r = 5.76' per rotation ?
714 RPM * 5.76' per rotation = 46 MPH ?
(Sounds reasonable to me, did I do those calculations right?)

Unfortunately the only road out of my neighborhood to civilization is 55 MPH.

If the controller doesn't blow on me (again anyways, I've already had it smoke on me once when I put it in 3rd), then I should be street legal in short order. Short term worst case (and probably long term) I'll go for the Soliton Jr and drive the car solely in 3rd gear.

Sorry for the long hiatus, but Bumblebee is coming back!


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## Ziggythewiz (May 16, 2010)

Welcome back!

The worst thing about lights that come on when you bump them is they turn off when the road bumps them again. I've got one that works when you look at it but that's about it. Got me honked/sworn at yesterday.


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## dtbaker (Jan 5, 2008)

ClintK said:


> So it has been a few years since my last post!


glad to see you are getting back to the EV!





ClintK said:


> - Tried bleeding the brakes but nothing came out. So I replaced the front flexible brake lines. Now I can bleed the brakes.


after sitting that long, with crack in flex lines, chances are the fluid in the line has absorbed water.... you should drain and fill with fresh fluid, or the water will attack steel lines and cylinders.






ClintK said:


> My DC-DC converter seems to have gone bad. ... checked the voltage across the output - it was something like 0.25V. Even if there is no load on the DC-DC converter, shouldn't it still show 12V?


sounds bad. could be fuse. could be connections, or traction pack voltage is below input required. what do you have for a traction pack, and is it at the original voltage the dc-dc expects on the input side?




Looks like my gear ratio is: 8.4 for 2nd gear ? (http://www.triumphspitfire.com/Size.html)
If my motor is spinning at 6,000 RPM, then my wheels are at: 714 RPM ?
Radii of my tires are about 11" => 2*pi*r = 5.76' per rotation ?
714 RPM * 5.76' per rotation = 46 MPH ?
[/QUOTE]
my swift doesn't have a tach, or a tailshaft for easy pickup, so I just calculated redlines and put stickers on the speedo:
mph = (RPM * Rtire)/(G1 *Gf *168) where G1 is gear selected, and Gf is final ratio in my case with: RPM = 5000 Rtire (radius rim+tire) = 11 Gf = 3.79 gives: 86.38/G1 = mph so I set my 'redlines': 1st: G1= 3.58 -> mph= 24 2nd: G1 = 1.89 -> MPH = 46 3rd: G1 = 1.28 -> mph = 67 .... enough! I slapped stickers right on the speedo...


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## ClintK (Apr 27, 2008)

Ziggythewiz said:


> Welcome back!
> 
> The worst thing about lights that come on when you bump them is they turn off when the road bumps them again. I've got one that works when you look at it but that's about it. Got me honked/sworn at yesterday.


Yeup. I knew it would turn off as soon as the inspector looked at it so I went ahead and cleaned the connections of all the lights. I then went around the car bumping every light with my hand / rocking the car and they all seem good now.


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## ClintK (Apr 27, 2008)

dtbaker said:


> after sitting that long, with crack in flex lines, chances are the fluid in the line has absorbed water.... you should drain and fill with fresh fluid, or the water will attack steel lines and cylinders.


Actually with the car sitting idle for those years no fluid leaked, the flexible hose just got stopped up. Now when I was debugging the problem I accidentally left the hose undone for a couple hours which drained my fluid in the front brakes nicely. 



dtbaker said:


> sounds bad. could be fuse. could be connections, or traction pack voltage is below input required. what do you have for a traction pack, and is it at the original voltage the dc-dc expects on the input side?


DC-DC converter is 120V->12V and my traction pack is 96V. What's weird though is it did work 2 years ago with this configuration! I visually checked the input and output fuses to the DC-DC and they both appeared good. I might change them anyways just to see.



dtbaker said:


> my swift doesn't have a tach, or a tailshaft for easy pickup, so I just calculated redlines and put stickers on the speedo:


Shouldn't these electric motors be able to do 7,000 or 8,000+ RPM? I haven't found a trustworthy source on that though!


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## dtbaker (Jan 5, 2008)

ClintK said:


> DC-DC converter is 120V->12V and my traction pack is 96V. What's weird though is it did work 2 years ago with this configuration!


this may be right at the bottom edge of what the dc-dc can handle, and if traction pack is sagging with age, you may have dropped below operating voltage for the dc-dc.




ClintK said:


> Shouldn't these electric motors be able to do 7,000 or 8,000+ RPM? I haven't found a trustworthy source on that though!


I know the smaller dia motors can safely spin higher, the 8" up to 5000 rpm or maybe higher for brief periods, but 9" probably shouldn't run long above 5000, and the 11" significantly lower. Look on the netgain website...... 

the sweet spot seems to be around 3000rpm for efficiency with decent torque left for acceleration anywhere between 1000-4000rpm.


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## Bottomfeeder (Jun 13, 2008)

Great to see you getting back to fixing up your Spitfire. They sure do fall apart if you don't drive them. But your gummed up brakes are almost certainly due to you not using them. The fluid needs to move around or it starts to corrode. I've been driving my Spit for 4 years now and the brakes are doing just fine. They're probably due for a check-up, though.

To fix a lot of my electrical problems I wasn't afraid to pull out the soldering iron to make the joints a little more permanent. The bulb sockets for my brakes were so corroded that I just soldered the wires straight to the contacts on the bulb. When I need to change them out, I'll just pull out the old soldering iron again.

I've since gone not only clutchless, but transmission-less. I have a WarP 9, so it can handle the higher torque needed, but my controller is a homebuilt kit from Paul and Sabrina. It doesn't have the fastest jump off the line, but I keep up with traffic. I use the gear shifter to switch from forward to reverse with a reversing contactor. Works great, and looks original.

Don't forget to give the car some grease where it needs grease, and oil where it needs oil.

Cheers.





ClintK said:


> So it has been a few years since my last post! Here's the short version... I purchased some acreage just before moving back to Texas. Controller issues prevented me from getting the car inspected / road legal right away when I moved back, and I got side-tracked building up the raw land. Late last year I sold the land so now I have time (and money) for the Spitfire project again! My goal is fully road legal and tearing up the road by May.
> 
> Turns out cars don't sit idle very well. (Actually maybe they sit idle fine, they just accumulate all the same problems regardless if you're driving them or not!)
> 
> ...


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## RE Farmer (Aug 8, 2009)

Welcome back, Clint. Good to see the Bumblebee back in action.

As another LBC (Little British Car) owner, electrical issues are almost always the bullet connectors or the fuses - not blown but corroded ends. I cleaned up my fuse connections and that brought back most of my lights. I've also changed my fuse block to separate ckts so various devices have their own fuse and added relays for heavy current items (horns/headlts). The switches themselves can also tarnish from disuse. They can be disassembled and cleaned. I had to do that to my horn, turn and headlight switches.

RE: brakes. Rubber flex lines often swell internally causing blockage. As you've already changed the fronts, I just remind you to check the rear flex lines. I changed mine to stainless/teflon lines to avoid future swelling and more solid brake pressure (rubber lines can swell from brake application or possibly burst if old and/or cracked).

George Hamstra at Netgain Motors says not to run the Warp motors (similar to ADC) over ~6000 rpm. It's possible for the balancing clay to come off at higher rpm. I think brush arcing may also be an issue, but I'm an AC not DC driver. 

--Dennis--


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## ClintK (Apr 27, 2008)

Great to hear from you all again. 

A few updates:
It was a blown fuse on the DC-DC converter. Replaced the input side and it's working great for me again. I posted a side question in the Technical Discussion area about the feasibility of upping the output voltage and/or decreasing the input voltage.

Replaced my brake switch so I have brake lights again!

Front and rear brakes seem to work - just poorly. I am confident enough with them to drive it to my local mechanic to have them check the brakes right before doing the safety inspection. 

During the process of messing with my brakes, one of the lug nut's threads stripped. Apparently ATVs are the only vehicles small enough sold today that have fitting lug nuts! Victoria British (my savior for Spitfire parts) didn't even have them in stock. Ordering a new set now...

Bad news - I think my brand new 12V pack is dead. Had it charged to 13V+ last weekend, disconnected it from the car, and now today it's in the 10s. I can't believe I depleted it enough during my earlier testing to do damage. Attempting another slow charge. Worst case I'll see how that warranty works out. 

The soldering iron did come out to fix one of my reverse lights. None of my new electronics go through Triumph's legendary (infamous?) electrical system.

I'd love to go transmissionless - I'll have to check out how you did your reversing contactor. That will definitely wait for post Soliton Jr. We're considering moving out of suburbia and to downtown of a small Texas town (where 30 mph is plenty sufficient and no trip exceeds 3 miles).


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## ClintK (Apr 27, 2008)

I couldn't find a replacement lug nut, but just as good (or better) the local ATV dealership re-threaded my stripped one, free of charge 

I also got warranty replacement on my new 12V battery, but I spent a few extra bucks to upgrade to a brand name and slightly smaller (yes smaller cost more!).

Had another very successful test drive up and down the street today. I've run out of road blocks to inspection (other than the iffy brakes), so my goal is to take it into the shop this week for them to adjust the brakes and inspect the vehicle! Bumblebee could be Texas road legal by the end of the week! Only took 3+ years...

Current to-do:
1. Brake check.
2. Inspection / road legal.
3. Battery Management System
4. Replace my 120V->12V with a 96V->13V DC-DC converter.
5. Add protection around the main battery lines under the car from a speed bump ripping them apart.

Any recommendations on a BMS for my 30 LiFePO4 cells? I'd really like to have shunt balancing for my cells.

Best contender I've found so far looks like dimitri's MiniBMS:
http://minibms.mybigcommerce.com/
The display would be pretty sweet too.


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## RE Farmer (Aug 8, 2009)

ClintK said:


> I couldn't find a replacement lug nut, but just as good (or better) the local ATV dealership re-threaded my stripped one, free of charge
> 
> I also got warranty replacement on my new 12V battery, but I spent a few extra bucks to upgrade to a brand name and slightly smaller (yes smaller cost more!).
> 
> ...


Re: 12V Battery...I keep my PbA tractor batteries on maintainer/trickle chargers over the winter as PbA cells will self discharge and "commit suicide" if left alone. That's probably what happened to your 12V. Fortunately, it was covered under warranty. That won't happen with LiFe cells as they don't have a self-discharge mechanism.

At the risk of starting an (old) argument, I recommend skipping the BMS and bottom balancing your cells as many of us do. If you're notfamiliar with this, check out Jack Rickard's blog at evtv.me. He's done considerable work on care and feeding of LiFe cells over the time you've been "away" from EV work. The field has progressed a lot the last few years. PM me if you want to know more about how bottom balancing works.


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## dtbaker (Jan 5, 2008)

RE Farmer said:


> At the risk of starting an (old) argument, I recommend skipping the BMS and bottom balancing your cells as many of us do.


you can pretty safely either bottom, or top-balance without a BMS depending on which end you plan to avoid..... the cells don't seem to drift much relative to each other once balanced as long as you don't have any parasitic loads on partial pack to unbalance.

There are people at both ends going BMS-less with success as far as I know. I'm top-balanced mostly because it simplifies charging just to let the charger handle the end and I never go below about 80%DOD.... different strokes for different folks.


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## ClintK (Apr 27, 2008)

RE Farmer said:


> Re: 12V Battery...I keep my PbA tractor batteries on maintainer/trickle chargers over the winter as PbA cells will self discharge and "commit suicide" if left alone. That's probably what happened to your 12V.


The battery was 1 week old, I wasn't even able to charge it once! (Although it was the cheapest Valu-brand there was and manufactured September of last year.)

The batteries so far seem balanced, but I've done little more than occasionally charge them the past 3 years. I'm not familiar with bottom balancing but I'll check it out.


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## ClintK (Apr 27, 2008)

Heard back from Advanced Motors and Drives (they were very quick to respond to my e-mail!), the max RPM I should run my L91-4003 in my car is 5,000 RPM.

So per my calculations, I'll do...
City driving: 2nd (keep it around 30, not more than 35)
Highway driving: 3rd (keep it around 50, not more than 55)


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## RE Farmer (Aug 8, 2009)

ClintK said:


> The battery was 1 week old, I wasn't even able to charge it once! (Although it was the cheapest Valu-brand there was and manufactured September of last year.)
> 
> The batteries so far seem balanced, but I've done little more than occasionally charge them the past 3 years. I'm not familiar with bottom balancing but I'll check it out.


Bottom balancing was simply explained by Jack Rickard in his EVTV Nov. 13, 2009 episode (also youtube: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cQd1LzB0dc0&playnext=1&list=PL7C48F0FD4241A5C5&feature=results_video)

It's a bit of a pain but avoids over discharging a single cell under high current while driving. Basically, you manually discharge every cell to 2.7-2.8V. That's why it's a pain, but it's only done once when installing cells. Top balancing, using shunts, tries to fill have all cells equal at the end of charging, a low current event where cells are less likely to be damaged from over charging. Over DIScharging irreversibly damages cells when they hit 0V and are forced to reversal by neighboring cells which still have capacity. Check out the videos for more details.


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## ClintK (Apr 27, 2008)

Late update, but the car became fully Texas road legal about a month ago! I had the Spitfire towed to the mechanic where they checked it out and inspected it. The car easily passed inspection; I immediately got the plates for the car and drove it home!

After I got it home and parked in the garage, the car thanked me with a puddle of brake fluid underneath the rear left wheel. These brakes are killing me! Basically the past month has been me battling the brakes.

Took apart the left rear drum (which was a task in itself) and replaced the leaking brake cylinder. The brake hose supplied with my brake kit has M10x1.0 threading, but the brake hose on the car is 3/8-24. AutoZone also says the car takes M10x10, but the M10x1.0 hoses do not fit.

So I put the old hoses back on, but they seem to be too old. Just as my front right hose was clogged up and had to be replaced, it appears the rear ones are clogged as well. I can get a little trickle out of them when I bleed them, but they don't allow enough pressure to the rear cylinders to actually actuate the drum brakes.

So the car is fully road legal and I've put a few miles on it, but my next priority is for some custom brake hoses.


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## dtbaker (Jan 5, 2008)

ClintK said:


> These brakes are killing me! Basically the past month has been me battling the brakes.


I am dreading similar issues when I start on my Sunbeam Alpine.... probably going to end up replacing all brake lines and MAYBE transplant entire suspension system to get better handling and brakes if I can learn more about the easiest transplant. Perhaps from a Miata ?

anyway, there are a number of decent looking tools at eastwood.com if you haven't found them already specifically for brakeline restoration and/or replumbing to make good flare ends.


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## Bottomfeeder (Jun 13, 2008)

I'd never trust Autozone with getting the parts right. Give Nigel at Spitbits.com a call and he'll make sure you get the right brake hoses. Call him up and let him know your problem. He's got tons of experience with Spitfires. I don't remember if it's metric or SAE, as it could be either with these old cars, but I'm sure he'll know. Hell, some of the bolts on my car are Whitworth threads! It's critical that you get new, unclogged ones. Brakes are something that you shouldn't compromise on.

But, besides that, congrats!


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## RE Farmer (Aug 8, 2009)

Bottomfeeder said:


> I'd never trust Autozone with getting the parts right. Give Nigel at Spitbits.com a call and he'll make sure you get the right brake hoses. Call him up and let him know your problem. He's got tons of experience with Spitfires. I don't remember if it's metric or SAE, as it could be either with these old cars, but I'm sure he'll know. Hell, some of the bolts on my car are Whitworth threads! It's critical that you get new, unclogged ones. Brakes are something that you shouldn't compromise on.
> 
> But, besides that, congrats!


There's also MossMotors.com (which has a sale on brake parts expiring today, 6/14) and British Victoria. com. I got their stainless steel flex line set and it fits correctly.


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## ClintK (Apr 27, 2008)

Victoria British is actually where I bought the rear brake hoses that didn't fit. I also purchased the front hoses from them that did fit.

Interesting... AutoZone lists the front hoses as 3/8-24 and the rears as M10x1.0. I bet Victoria British delivered the same - 3/8s in front and M10 in back.

It makes no sense for a car to have 2 different threadings for the front vs rear!

I'll give spitbits a call on Monday!


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## ClintK (Apr 27, 2008)

So update on the brakes...

Ordered 2 new hoses for the rear brakes from Spitbits... they were 3/8x24 threading! Yey!

New hoses fit just fine. I went ahead and rebuilt the rear right drum brakes as well (I had only rebuilt the left before because they were leaking). New cylinder, shoes, springs, etc. Fought 30 years of rusted bolts but eventually won.

Put it all together, started to bleed them and I was so excited, brake fluid was flowing out the rear right side (was just a trickle before because the hoses were bad). Kept on bleeding, but as soon as bubbles started to disappear completely, a new resurgence of bubbles appeared. Bubbles started to clear, then resurgence again. Looked over and low and behold brake fluid is leaking from my new brake hose (at the hard line connection) on the opposite side.

Removed it, retightened it, adjusted it, nothing helped. No matter what I do the connection of my new brake hose to the hard line leaks when under pressure.

So I've gone from slow leak in rear brakes (rear brakes ineffective), to no leak in rear brakes (rear brakes ineffective), to major leak in rear brakes (and they're effective for about 2 pushes). It's kind of forward progress, but at least I could drive the car with the first 2. Now I'm stuck with fixing it myself or getting the car towed.

I'm stumped. What can I do to stop this leak?
I've read about people suggesting teflon tape with a resounding response of "don't do that".
The Autozone guy suggested putting silicone sealant while I thread it on.

I suppose I could buy a new hard line and replace it for the rear left (and have another pint of brake fluid leak all over the car, my hands, and garage floor again). That's gotta be last resort though (right before towing the car anyways).

(In a related note, I will never work on brakes again. I had actually bought new pads for my daily driver's disc brakes and was going to put them on today. Theoretically it would be very clean and easy, but I'm not taking any more chances. I'll be taking that car to the shop tomorrow instead...)


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

Hi Clintk

Your problem may be due to a different formed end on the "hard" brake line,
I would recommend replacing with the Copper/nickel alloy - steel ones eventually rust

The metric and imperial hoses probably use different ends
You would have to look at the bottom of the female threaded hole to see if there is a protrusion - to mate with a single flare or a chamfer to mate with a double flare.

If you have formed the end into the wrong type it's jiggered


Brakes are not too bad to work on - 
I would tend to go over the whole system at the start
Connecting 20+ year old bits and new bits is a recipe for tears
(you won't need to replace everything - but you should clean and asses everything)


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## ClintK (Apr 27, 2008)

It's embarrassing to admit that it took 3 months to solve the brakes, but they're finally fixed! (In my defense, I had 6 trips during that time including 2 weeks overseas.) Ended up having the repair shop tow the car in, re-thread the leaking brake line, adjust the rears, and bleed them. Car is driving again!

1. There is a slow drain on the 12V battery (was there pre-conversion - most likely the radio). I've been disconnecting the battery between drives, but it's a pain messing with a wrench every time I drive the car. Looks like there are some nice 12V cutoff switches; I think I'll put in one of those.

2. The speedometer is shaky (never was this bad). I did some Googling and I guess I need to install a new cable.

Ahh, old British cars...


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## Baratong (Nov 29, 2012)

I was wondering if you managed to solve the acceleration problems you were having earlier? If so could you share what the resolution was?


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## ClintK (Apr 27, 2008)

Baratong said:


> I was wondering if you managed to solve the acceleration problems you were having earlier? If so could you share what the resolution was?


(There were several things I did while working with ElectroCraft trying to get it to run. Some of those items may have influenced it, but what made a huge difference...)

I had a main-pack-contactor wired to the switch on the pot-box. (For safety: take my foot off the pedal and it cuts power to the motor). I bypassed that contactor, and the controller has been working great.


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## ClintK (Apr 27, 2008)

I've been quiet, but the car has been doing well.

Updates since my last post...
- Installed a new speedometer cable - it no longer dances while I'm at a steady speed!
- Installed a 12V cutoff switch so it's easy to disconnect the battery when I'm not driving.

I think my bearings are bad on the rear left wheel. I'll need to get that fixed soon.

I bought a new aluminum plate (12"x24"x3/8") that I'm going to remount all my components on. They're currently on a thin steel shelf, but I'd like something thicker to distribute the heat from the controller...

I keep blowing the fuse on my DC-DC converter on the 96V side, and I'm tired of charging my 12V separately, so I want to order a new converter sooner rather than later.

Some options:
http://kellycontroller.com/hwz-series-dcdc-converter-96v-to-135v-25a-p-371.html
Ouputs 13.8V @ 25A $149

http://www.thunderstruck-ev.com/cleanpower-96v-dc-dc.html
Ouputs 13.8V @ 30A $160

http://ev-propulsion.com/DC-DC-converters.html
Ouputs 13.5V @ 42A $299

(Other suggestions?)

I've attempted to drive without the 12V battery. The car goes a few blocks before I blow the DC-DC converter fuse and everything shuts off. I'm not too surprised, my current one outputs only 300W @ 12V. I can actually turn on my high-beams & windshield wipers & drive a bit and it won't blow right away; just during acceleration it's a roll of the dice.

I've also driven the car WITH the 12V battery and I STILL blow the converter fuse. Should that happen?

I'm concerned if I buy one of these 13.8V @ 25-30A converters, I may just blow those fuses as well. Does anyone else have similar issues with their DC-DC converters?

I'm not home to check, but I think I've got a 4A or 5A fuse on the 96V side - should be well above the 300W output even with losses?

Any ideas? Thanks!


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

ClintK said:


> I keep blowing the fuse on my DC-DC converter on the 96V side
> 
> (Other suggestions?)
> 
> ...


You may have an interaction going on between your motor controller and DC/DC converter. Both units have capacitors on the high voltage input and modulate at different rates. This can cause excessive ripple currents and adversely affect the DC/DC and do things like blow fuses. I am not sure about your controller, but it sounded like the problem happens more often with newer controllers using film caps than older styles with electrolytics. There have been a number of threads about the problem over the past few years. It seems there is a fairly easy fix using a filter (inductor) in line with the DC/DC. Maybe a member will chime in with a link helping to size that filter.


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## ClintK (Apr 27, 2008)

major said:


> There have been a number of threads about the problem over the past few years. It seems there is a fairly easy fix using a filter (inductor) in line with the DC/DC.


Aha! Found this thread:
http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showthread.php/dc-dc-converter-keeps-blowing-fusesi-59890.html?highlight=converter+ripple

Ordering an inductor now! Thanks for the tip!


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## dtbaker (Jan 5, 2008)

The only controller I am aware of that kicks out much ripple is Soliton. Zilla to a lesser degree, and Curtis not much at all. If you get inductor, get 100mH-20amp rated... you have to get 2x the rating load you expect the inductor to see.

I did have a string of bad luck with Chinnec dc-dc units. they seem very sensitive to both over-voltage, and sagging voltage under range. I had two both die after less than 1 year of use. I switched to using ACME 600watt dc-dc, which seem to have a much broader range of acceptable input voltage.... no more problems. these are currently branded 'MW' at evolveelectric.com: http://evolveelectrics.com/DC-DC Converters.html#mwdcdc but may not like input voltage below 110vDC.


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## ClintK (Apr 27, 2008)

dtbaker said:


> I did have a string of bad luck with Chinnec dc-dc units. they seem very sensitive to both over-voltage, and sagging voltage under range.


The symptoms described in the thread are exactly what I've experienced. I can turn on all lights/radio/flashers/windshield wipers and even have steady acceleration, and the DC-DC was fine. However as soon as I pull 200+ Amps or so (lights/everything else off), the fuse would blow. It is a cheap Chinese unit...

I just tried replacing the 5 Amp fuse with a 10 Amp (on the high side). Drove around with a lead foot and it didn't blow. I don't know how bad my batteries are sagging under load (or how inefficient the converter is), but perhaps that's all it is? Fuse too small? If my 96V drops over a third under load then the 5 Amp fuse would be inadequate.


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## ClintK (Apr 27, 2008)

Update!

I replaced my thin metal shelf that housed the components (and blocked air flow to the controller) with a 1/4" plate of aluminum. The big benefit is the new plate acts as a giant heat sink to help cool the controller. I took a short test drive around the neighborhood and initial results are VERY positive. The controller was much cooler, and overall the motor bay looks so much better.

How I had the old shelf mounted was a little embarrassing, but this new plate is something to be proud of. I had 2 L-brackets welded to the plate, and those L-brackets are secured to the motor mount up front. The plate is -solid-.

I did notice something concerning on one of my battery cells. I saw some white powdery build-up in the center of the cell and it's voltage was about .04 volts lower than the other cells.

I've attached 3 pictures:
- When I saw the issue.
- After wiping away the powder. You can see the Thundersky battery logo is decayed compared to the other cells.
- The center cap came off while I was wiping off the powder. What's under that?

All in all though, the car has never run better!


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## Moltenmetal (Mar 20, 2014)

I love watching your build! Glad you're still updating and posting photos. Your car was in much better shape than mine...I've spent what feels like a lifetime just dealing with rust, and still have a lot of patching to do.

Nice to see how many cells you managed to fit up front. How's the weight distribution? I'm going with at least 9-10 x 180 Ah cells where the gas tank was just for weight distribution. Do you have any in the trunk?

Hope I don't struggle with my brakes like you did! I replaced all the brakelines and hoses, the master cylinder seems to work OK (I bought a rebuild kit just in case), but am worried about getting the bleeders on the calipers and drum cylinders to open without twisting off...dreading that actually. 

Mine has a front/back differential pressure shuttle valve/warning switch which takes two lines from the master cylinders and feeds it to the individual lines which run to the front and back brake tees. Regrettably I didn't note which end of the shuttle valve went to the front and which went to the back, and my Haynes manual doesn't tell me either. Does it matter? Which way is it plumbed on your car?


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## ClintK (Apr 27, 2008)

Moltenmetal said:


> I love watching your build! Glad you're still updating and posting photos. Your car was in much better shape than mine...I've spent what feels like a lifetime just dealing with rust, and still have a lot of patching to do.


I saw your build - that will be a very impressive car! My car was garage kept in Phoenix, Arizona; you can't get a better situation to avoid rust. You're far braver than I with taking on that restoration!  I'm so busy I haven't had time to wander the forums, but I at least try to keep my thread going.



Moltenmetal said:


> Nice to see how many cells you managed to fit up front. How's the weight distribution?


I've got 20 cells up front, 10 in back. I never weighed the car after the conversion, but I bet it's comparable to pre-conversion (my goal was light weight). I could see the weight being shifted a bit forward because of where I mounted the hood batteries, but the car handles great.



Moltenmetal said:


> Hope I don't struggle with my brakes like you did! I replaced all the brakelines and hoses, the master cylinder seems to work OK


It wouldn't have gone so bad if I got the correct brake lines. The ones I ordered from Victoria British (also same ones AutoZone has on file) have the WRONG threading. Of course I didn't realize that until I screwed up the threading on my hard lines. SpitBits got me the right ones and the repair shop was able to rethread the hard lines for me.



Moltenmetal said:


> Regrettably I didn't note which end of the shuttle valve went to the front and which went to the back, and my Haynes manual doesn't tell me either. Does it matter? Which way is it plumbed on your car?


No idea if it matters! I've attached a photo of my brakes; does that help? (Please forgive me on how dirty the car is! It needs work and camera flash brings out the worst!)


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## Moltenmetal (Mar 20, 2014)

Hey, your car looks great- you have nothing to be ashamed of! Mine started quite a bit back from yours in terms of basic soundness and aesthetics, but hey, it was "free"...and the rebuild work has been a lot of sweat and tin-whacking and welding but not much money. Important, when you blow the bank on 32 x 180 Ah cells!

My plan was originally 18 at the front, in two rows of 9 arranged opposite to yours- but if your 20 fit so nicely up front that way I might weigh my options a bit and save a bit of room in the trunk.

Thanks for the brake pic. I figure the differential switch/valve front/back doesn't matter, but no harm to putting it back the same way it was originally, which I suspect yours is. Should have taken better photos before I started tearing out the old lines I guess!

Got a replacement tee from Spitbits at my hotel in the 'States on my business trip, so this weekend I'll probably be able to complete the brake plumbing. I bought my brake lines and hoses from Spitbits and everything fit fine, aside from them giving me three of one pipe that I only needed two of- guess there were two variants of the plumbing that they covered. The cupronickel lines are a dream to work with- bend easily by hand, no kinking, and all the threads fit. The car's brake system is mostly bubble flare 3/8-24 and you can't find those tees anywhere- inverted flare stuff doesn't fit as the nuts on the bubble flare lines are longer and have an unthreaded straight bit at the front so they can't be accidentally used in inverted tee fittings.


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## Moltenmetal (Mar 20, 2014)

Hey ClintK, I was wondering if you would mind popping the hood and making a measurement for me: well, actually you will have to measure with the hood closed, up from the frame member right next to the rubber bumper attachment point up to the hood. I can't do that without refitting my hood, which is a huge job I don't want to get into right now. My plan is to have a cell which will have its corner right there and I'm worried about vertical clearance to the underside of the hood. 12" will give me a little room- 12.5" would be better...see my thread for a pic of what I need. Thanks!


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## dtbaker (Jan 5, 2008)

Moltenmetal said:


> Hey ClintK, I was wondering if you would mind popping the hood and making a measurement for me: well, actually you will have to measure with the hood closed, up from the frame member right next to the rubber bumper attachment point up to the hood. I can't do that without refitting my hood, which is a huge job I don't want to get into right now. My plan is to have a cell which will have its corner right there and I'm worried about vertical clearance to the underside of the hood. 12" will give me a little room- 12.5" would be better...see my thread for a pic of what I need. Thanks!



if needed, I'd suggest a little 'bump' like they had for the carbs.... or cut a hole and make an 'active' scoop with heatsink like I did for my Swift! I had a corner the JUST interfered with hood.... found a plastic stick-on scoop on eBay.... check out via the link to my build link for the Swift...


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## Moltenmetal (Mar 20, 2014)

Good suggestion, as this car had the hood raised at the front to fit the larger engine which gave it a [email protected] grin- looked stupid. I want that hood down where it was designed to go, but don't have the time to fit it and then remove it again! This hood is half the freaking car...


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## ClintK (Apr 27, 2008)

Moltenmetal said:


> My plan was originally 18 at the front, in two rows of 9 arranged opposite to yours- but if your 20 fit so nicely up front that way I might weigh my options a bit and save a bit of room in the trunk.


What are the dimensions of your cells? Probably a fair amount taller than mine?



Moltenmetal said:


> Hey ClintK, I was wondering if you would mind popping the hood and making a measurement for me


I posted on your thread the pictures. PLEASE let me know if you need me to take another one though. My frame didn't look quite the same as yours....


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## dtbaker (Jan 5, 2008)

Moltenmetal said:


> Good suggestion, as this car had the hood raised at the front to fit the larger engine which gave it a [email protected] grin- looked stupid. I want that hood down where it was designed to go, but don't have the time to fit it and then remove it again! This hood is half the freaking car...


you can find all kinds of shapes and sizes of ABS scoops for <$20 on ebay...


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## Moltenmetal (Mar 20, 2014)

Surprisingly I went through your blog for the first time just now. Should have done that sooner...but it's surprising how many decisions That I'd already puzzled out on my own ended up matching yours- the potbox location and the location and even the basic type of 12v fuseblock I'd bought etc- shocking!

Let's hope that great minds think alike, because it's also said that fools seldom differ!

Of course my motor, controller, cells and the fact that I kept the clutch are big differences. I have 180Ah cells which are taller, but suspect they'll fit thanks to your measurements. I ran my front to back pack cables differently. But the big things I'm jealous about are how little restoration you had to do, and how supportive your wife is (hopefully still!). Hope I have fewer brake troubles, and this is the 2nd soft top I'll be putting on the car so hopefully 2nd time will be a charm! 

Off to get my wrecker Miata seats hopefully tomorrow. So many things to do that the right answer to what to do next is always the same- something, or anything!


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## RE Farmer (Aug 8, 2009)

ClintK said:


> Update!
> 
> I did notice something concerning on one of my battery cells. I saw some white powdery build-up in the center of the cell and it's voltage was about .04 volts lower than the other cells.
> 
> ...


Clint, Sorry for not getting back sooner...those battery logos cover the cell's vent (which shouldn't be venting unless there's something wrong). Venting occurs with overcharging or possibly a soft short. John Hardy has painstakingly tested and documented LiFePO4 cells and shows how to test for bad cells in this video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HKL93eGEd9A

Starting ~0:40:00, John shows his test setup. At ~0:50:00, he shows that a cell with an internal (soft) short will slowly LOSE voltage after a strong discharge event rather than INCREASING while resting/recovering from the current draw.
I.e. if you find a cell loosing voltage (usually monitored or checked after resting overnight) while the others are gradually rising in voltage after discharging them, you have a bad/damaged cell that should be replaced.


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## ClintK (Apr 27, 2008)

RE Farmer said:


> I.e. if you find a cell loosing voltage (usually monitored or checked after resting overnight) while the others are gradually rising in voltage after discharging them, you have a bad/damaged cell that should be replaced.


I appreciate the info. It seems like this cell is consistently lower, but not necessarily losing voltage. If it wasn't for the venting I wouldn't really be concerned at all.

I've never individually charged the cells (never had a need to) - in fact I don't even have a way to individually charge them! Perhaps it's time to get a 3.2V charger...

I try to drive the car on the weekends. The cell is at 3.27 now; I'll see how it is on Saturday before the next drive.


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## RE Farmer (Aug 8, 2009)

Do you have matching spare cells?

If you do decide to replace the cell, be sure to bottom balance it with the rest of the pack. That same video from my previous post shows John's balancing setup. 

I have an EV, LBC (Little British Car) conversion friend in Austin, 
Fred Behning (I think I sent you his contact info a while back -http://evtd.blogspot.com), who may have balancing apparatus, or at least the knowledge, for doing the balance/match-up process for adding a new cell. If you want to buy a balancing device, I recommend the CellPro Powerlab 8:

http://store.evtv.me/products.php?filter=cellpro

I was originally designed for R/C models, but Jack has added the connectors for our cells. It nice feature is it can store the energy removed during the balancing process in another pack rather than just "burning" it off. PM me if you need more info on the bottom balance process.


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## ClintK (Apr 27, 2008)

RE Farmer said:


> Do you have matching spare cells?


Unfortunately no. I'll throw getting a spare battery and bottom balancing on the to-do list. I'm sure I'll have some questions for you when I get to that point! Right now the next improvement for the car is new wheel bearings.


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## ClintK (Apr 27, 2008)

Moltenmetal said:


> Let's hope that great minds think alike, because it's also said that fools seldom differ!


Yeah... let's go with the positive one. 



Moltenmetal said:


> I kept the clutch are big differences.


If I were to do it again, I would have spent more time trying to keep the clutch.




Moltenmetal said:


> how supportive your wife is (hopefully still!).


The wife is wonderful. She's got a couple horses, so we both have our money pits.


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## RE Farmer (Aug 8, 2009)

Like you...I've spent the last couple years establishing a new business and put my 
MG-EV conversion on the back burner. Consequently, I just found a couple of my cells (that have been stored in my basement) at <1V. I do have several spares, but I'm currently in testing, hoping to restore them to operational status.

Jack @ EVTV has some NOS SE100 (blue) cells that CALB/Pomona was trying clear out for $95. I think they are about the same dimensions as your TS100s.

http://store.evtv.me/proddetail.php?prod=SE100AHA


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## ClintK (Apr 27, 2008)

RE Farmer said:


> Consequently, I just found a couple of my cells (that have been stored in my basement) at <1V.[/url]


Yikes! Were they wired up to anything and slowly drained? Or did internal resistance just take them down that far?

Even during my couple years of idle time, every few months I used the charger to top them off. I never noticed the voltage on any cell drop significantly though.


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## RE Farmer (Aug 8, 2009)

ClintK said:


> Yikes! Were they wired up to anything and slowly drained? Or did internal resistance just take them down that far?
> 
> One was just sitting in a group; the other was connected to 3 others as a 12V battery, but the "battery" was just sitting on my test bench.
> 
> Even during my couple years of idle time, every few months I used the charger to top them off. I never noticed the voltage on any cell drop significantly though.


Topping off is generally not a good idea (can lead to over charging) unless you use 3.65V as the maximum. These cells are happiest at mid-range charge (i.e. 50% charge ~3.3V) which is where mine were for storage purposes.

They're both at 3.32V and have been there for a day or so. Unfortunately, I don't have them hooked up to CellPro's computer monitoring program so I can't see any trending other than periodically checking them w/ my VOM. I've marked these two cells for future reference and will not install them in a car - just keep them for b/u or solar storage.


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## ClintK (Apr 27, 2008)

I built a variable power supply based (mostly) on the plans here:
http://makezine.com/projects/0-24-Volt-2-Amp-Bench-Top-Power-Supply/

I'm pretty happy with how it turned out. It was really a side project for other projects, but here's a question - how feasibility is it to use this to charge a single LiFePO4 battery?

Not fast charging by any means, but just setting it to 3.4V or something and let it trickle charge.

I imagine the greater the voltage difference between my power supply voltage and the battery the more current it will try to draw? So I should only do a fraction of a volt to slowly charge?

I also imagine bad things would happen if my battery voltage exceeded that of the power supply? (Not just draining the battery, but damaging the power supply?)


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## RE Farmer (Aug 8, 2009)

Generally, trickle charging (i.e. constant low current) is a no-no for these cells. However, if the power supply is limited to 3.4V, it's probably pretty safe. Just don't leave it on indefinitely - shut it off once the cell hits 3.4V. 

Ideally, you charge at constant current until the cell hits 3.65, then hold that voltage while decreasing current until it drops to 0.05C or 5A for your cells - then shut it off. That's defined as fully charged. Further charging (even a 0.5A trickle) WILL damage the cell.

If the power supply is 24V, I'd think it would be hard for an individual cell to damage the charger. I suppose you could add a "blocking" diode if you're concerned.

If you're trying to recover the <2V cell, charge at no more than 0.5A (500mA) until the cell recovers to 2.5-2.7V. My PowerLab does this automatically then increases the current once the cell in the "normal" range for a Li cell. It took me many hours (like ~10) to get my depleted cells up to 2.7 - then another 5 hrs @~5A to reach 50%/3.33V. Don't leave your cell(s) charging unmonitored with no auto-cutoff of some sort. That's how several people have burned up their car/garage/home.


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## fb_bf (Jul 6, 2011)

I was just killing some time reading this thread and notice MoltenMetal was talking about fitting his batteries under the hood. I took a chance and mounted 10 of my batteries on their side to fit it under the hood of my Midget. I'm approaching 3 years of driving with them that way so I might have proven it to be safe to do that. I added some pictures that show the sideways mounting.


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## ClintK (Apr 27, 2008)

I've replaced my underperforming cell, can you guess which one was replaced?

I bought the replacement from evtv.me (they're liquidating the older generation cells); its dimensions were thankfully identical to my existing cells!


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## ClintK (Apr 27, 2008)

Very long time since my last update... Not surprisingly, my last post was the same month my son was born. ;-)
Spitfire is still alive and driving - same batteries.

I've attached a couple pictures of recent improvements. Replaced the rubber along the side windows and new interior door panels. (Model 3 in the background is the new daily driver.)

I moved to the Pacific Northwest so the car unfortunately sits idle in the winter. Most of my trips are to a park a little over a mile away.

Last spring the first day I took it out the front left brake seized on me after going to the park. I let it cool off, drove home, and it was fine for the rest of the year.

Now I'm driving it again this year and it seized on me after going to the park. Let cool down, fine for the drive back. Figured I'd be good for the rest of the year. Just took it out and it seized on me again.

Anyone have any tips along the lines of "spray this can of de-rust here and there" and the brakes may be ok? Even if it's a low chance of success, I'm willing to spend a few bucks on something that might work. My time is very limited now so I'm dreading taking the front brakes apart.


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## RE Farmer (Aug 8, 2009)

ClintK said:


> I moved to the Pacific Northwest so the car unfortunately sits idle in the winter. Most of my trips are to a park a little over a mile away.
> 
> Last spring the first day I took it out the front left brake seized on me after going to the park. I let it cool off, drove home, and it was fine for the rest of the year.
> 
> Anyone have any tips along the lines of "spray this can of de-rust here and there" and the brakes may be ok? Even if it's a low chance of success, I'm willing to spend a few bucks on something that might work. My time is very limited now so I'm dreading taking the front brakes apart.


It sounds like the symptoms I've had with both my '76 Honda Goldwing and my '72 MG (now EV). 

It's a common issue with cars that sit (or sometimes just from age). The inner lining of the flexible, rubber brake lines swell from absorbing water from the brake fluid. All brake fluid, except DOT5 (silicone) is hygroscopic - meaning it absorbs water from the air. If the fluid isn't changed every couple years, it swells the lining and can trap the fluid in the line, preventing it from returning back to the master cylinder when the brake pedal is released. It can also rust the metal lines and/or wheel brake cylinders. The fix is to replace the flex lines (relatively easy and inexpensive ~$40) and bleed the brakes. http://www.victoriabritish.com/icatalog/sg/full.aspx?Page=45

If you replace the rubber lines with braided SS lines that are teflon lined (more expensive, $75) http://www.victoriabritish.com/icatalog/sg/full.aspx?Page=41

The SS lines won't absorb water due to teflon liner and are stronger due to SS braid - a plus for an EV with no "compression/engine" or regen braking. If the wheel cylinders are corroded, you may have to rebuild/hone them or replace them. 

Just doing the flex lines is quick and easy (couple hours at most). If more extensive brake o'haul needed takes more like a day/wkend and more cost. Take pictures before disassembly to remember how springs, etc. go back together for rear drum brakes. Costs are on the refs I posted. Good luck.


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## nnelson65 (May 2, 2018)

I'm with RE Farmer...it sounds like the soft line has collapsed internally.


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## Bottomfeeder (Jun 13, 2008)

I'm in the process of getting my '64 EV spit back on the road after about 3 years of sitting. The rear brake drum had locked up, but I was able to take it apart and get it free. I drove it back and forth in my driveway and the brakes definitely were grabby and I wasn't comfortable taking it out on the road yet. I have to replace a couple of bad cells before I can really take it out on the road. Anyway, this advice is timely for me as well. It's probably worth bleeding the lines and checking those hoses.


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## ClintK (Apr 27, 2008)

RE Farmer said:


> The fix is to replace the flex lines (relatively easy and inexpensive ~$40) and bleed the brakes.
> The SS lines won't absorb water due to teflon liner and are stronger due to SS braid - a plus for an EV with no "compression/engine" or regen braking. If the wheel cylinders are corroded, you may have to rebuild/hone them or replace them.





nnelson65 said:


> I'm with RE Farmer...it sounds like the soft line has collapsed internally.


I really appreciate the advice guys, thank you much!

I replaced the brake lines and bled them several years ago (which actually turned into a nightmare with the rear brakes, but hopefully that can be avoided this time).




Bottomfeeder said:


> I'm in the process of getting my '64 EV spit back on the road after about 3 years of sitting.


Timing kind of sucks for this brake problem as there is a car show this weekend I was planning on taking the Spitfire to, but I just can't trust the brakes now. Ahh well, there will be many more this summer. Good luck getting yours going again!


On a related note, my emergency brake has been incredibly weak (not a new problem, been an issue for years and just never fixed it). I should finally fix that as well...


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## Moltenmetal (Mar 20, 2014)

Glad to see the Bumblebee is still on the go! As you may have noticed, my E-Fire met an untimely end...fortunately with no injury or loss of life, but it could easily have been the other way.

I now have a TR6- with an engine. The engine has its benefits- and the TR6 is the height of driving luxury relative to the E-Fire in terms of comfort etc. But the engine has an oil leak I'm not really anxious to deal with, and it drinks premium gasoline like a pig. It MAY need to be converted at some point, but likely will wait a bit. Insurance is the real bastard here, though it sounds like after all these years I MAY have found an actual, semi-willing insurer who isn't asking $4100/yr- just asking as much for the 3rd car of a 2 driver family as my regular cars cost to insure- but for this one, no collision, an inferior level of compensation even if the car is hit by another driver etc. Not very appealing to say the least.


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## ClintK (Apr 27, 2008)

Moltenmetal said:


> my E-Fire met an untimely end
> 
> Insurance is the real bastard here


I did read that. 

That's crazy with the insurance. I know it's heavily location dependent, but my Spitfire is only $324 / year. No collision but otherwise good coverage (and I did tell them it was converted).


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## Baratong (Nov 29, 2012)

ClintK said:


> That's crazy with the insurance. I know it's heavily location dependent, but my Spitfire is only $324 / year. No collision but otherwise good coverage (and I did tell them it was converted).



I'm paying about the same as ClintK on my Spitfire. Just a tad under $300/year. The downside is they only offered a maximum replacement value of $8k. 

I have the minimum in liability on the auto policy. For various reasons I have a separate umbrella liability policy that covers everything above the auto liability's minimum.


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## ClintK (Apr 27, 2008)

Follow-up brake question for you guys...

I replaced all the flexible brake lines with stainless steel. The same hose that was a nightmare for me last time was a nightmare this time. I really hope it doesn't leak under pressure.

I also adjusted the emergency brake, so I should have working parking/emergency brakes again! That was long overdue...

Here's my question though... last time I worked on the brakes I wrote on the master cylinder DOT #, but the # has rubbed away. And I can't get a straight answer on the proper brake fluid to use in this car (I remember researching it way too much last time too).

The most reliable website I found is:
http://www.triumphspitfire.com/Fluids.html
which says DOT 4, but "DOT 3 ok in a bind".

Ideally I'd like to do a poor-man's brake fluid flush anyways... (Reservoir is already pretty empty. I want to keep adding brake fluid while it drains out of each line for awhile.) But what brake fluid should I put in this thing? DOT 3? DOT 4?

Think it will work? It's gonna take a miracle?


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

ClintK said:


> ... last time I worked on the brakes I wrote on the master cylinder DOT #, but the # has rubbed away. And I can't get a straight answer on the proper brake fluid to use in this car (I remember researching it way too much last time too).
> 
> The most reliable website I found is:
> http://www.triumphspitfire.com/Fluids.html
> ...


DOT 4 fluid replaces DOT 3 fluid; DOT 3 fluid is now obsolete. Even a system designed for DOT 3 fluid would be better with DOT 4, so use DOT 4. If there is still some DOT 3 fluid in there that's okay, because they are compatible.

Just don't use DOT 5: it is *not* compatible with the other types, and would not be suitable.


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## boatman (Apr 13, 2012)

I agree with the above answer, but wanted to add a bit more in case it jogs your memory as to what you put in last time.

As I understand it :

DOT 3 - Old, Glycol Based

DOT 4 - Newer Glycol Based

DOT 5 - Silicon based - NOT compatible with Glycol based fluids, but often used in classic cars as it is not hydroscopic, and hence lasts longer before it needs to be replaced

DOT 5.1 - Newer Glycol based fluid, with a higher boiling point.

You should never mix Silicon and Glycol based fluids.

If you had put DOT 5 - Silicon based fluid in, you would probably remember it as it is much more expensive, and hence would have been a specific decision.

Hope that helps.


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## ClintK (Apr 27, 2008)

Finally have an update on the brakes!

The nightmare that was my rear left brake line was because the threads were jacked up on the hard line. (Threads halfway down nut are gone.) I can't possibly see how I caused this damage, it must have happened long before I owned the car. It completely explains why I could not get a good seal many years ago or today. And I also see how the repair shop got it working many years ago - they were able to just push with sufficient force while turning to get past the bad threads.

A business nearby can recreate those types of hoses, so I had a new one created! Looks and works great.

Oh, and I went with DOT 4, thanks for the advice!

I do have yet another question... What is this little red button on the steering column? (See photo.)

My next 'to do' on the car is completely redoing the dashboard. Remove everything that doesn't work (tach, heater, choke, etc) and have minimalist design.


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

ClintK said:


> I do have yet another question... What is this little red button on the steering column? (See photo.)


My guess would be the hazard flasher switch; the hazard flasher indicator on the dash is just a light, not the switch.


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## ClintK (Apr 27, 2008)

brian_ said:


> My guess would be the hazard flasher switch; the hazard flasher indicator on the dash is just a light, not the switch.


The hazard indicator on the dash is the switch. If I pull it my hazards come on.

The little red button does not stay down - it springs back up. It has very little travel in it though.


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

brian_ said:


> My guess would be the hazard flasher switch; the hazard flasher indicator on the dash is just a light, not the switch.





ClintK said:


> The hazard indicator on the dash is the switch. If I pull it my hazards come on.


Hmmm... I should have said that the indicator is *usually* just a light.. 



ClintK said:


> The little red button does not stay down - it springs back up. It has very little travel in it though.


So it sounds like a momentary contact switch, which would normally be a reset of some sort.

I don't remember the year of your car, but I assume it is a relatively late model year. Could it be a reset for the inertial switch which cuts off power (possibly only fuel pump) in a crash?


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