# [EVDL] Faster shifting a clutchless EV



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

There was a thread on this a few weeks back
here's a link:
http://www.nabble.com/The-solution-to-clutchless-shifting-td14510090ef25542.html#a14522169

And please trim the digest at the end of your posts.

-- 
www.electric-lemon.com

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Peter,

1) Thanks for that link and reminder.

2) Sorry about the untrimmed post. My Treo automatically includes the 
entire email when I reply and I forgot to trim it...

ssage: 19
Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2008 18:06:04 -0800
From: "Peter Gabrielsson" <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Faster shifting a clutchless EV
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Message-ID:
<[email protected]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

There was a thread on this a few weeks back
here's a link:
http://www.nabble.com/The-solution-to-clutchless-shifting-td14510090ef25542.ht
ml#a14522169

And please trim the digest at the end of your posts.




Thank you,

Dave Delman
1981 Electric DeLorean Project
electricdelorean.com



**************Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape. 
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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Dave Delman wrote:
> > My electric DeLorean is a clutchless design and I would like to figure out a way to be able to upshift faster.
> 
> I don't mean to sound glib but what about using a clutch? I know that's
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> My electric DeLorean is a clutchless design and I would like to figure out
a way to be able to upshift faster.


If you have a regen-capable controller that can do a very slight regen to
match input/output speed, that should do it. It has to be matched to the
motor inertia. Industrial 4-quadrant drives can do this already. Possibly an
automagic control in there. Some trucks do that using a Jacob's brake
(engine compression brake) to slow the engine down quickly to match revs. If
you're running a DC, perhaps you could arranage some other type of motor
braking arrangement to do that.

-Dale

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

I hate to be unfashionably low-tech, but if you don't want to do serious 
re-engineering, why not put something like a brake disk on the 
countershaft, which can be manually controlled? A braking system from a 
mountain bike should be enough. I assume you're using a series DC 
motor, so regen through the traction motor is not possible. Regen from 
a tiny alternator is silly, you won't get much usable current from it, 
and it's a lot of work to go through just to slow down the motor shaft. 
The state of the art for slowing down a spinning thing is pretty good. 
Now one could find the similarity between a brake disk and a clutch disk 
ironic, but Dan's predictably predictable answer is a pretty good one. 
It sounds like you want a clutch. (Judging from people's complaints 
about clutchless, and the lack of complaints with having a clutch, I'm 
starting to think I want a clutch, too. With all the money I have 
invested, $250 for a racing flywheel doesn't sound so bad to get rid of 
the "massive flywheel" issue.)

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

If you live in snow and ice country like I do, it is very dangerous to even 
touch the brakes, even if you come to a slow stop at a crossing. If you do, 
you will slide right through.

I about to go up to the highest point in my city, which the road is all snow 
pack on the steepest road in the city. Coming down this hill, all I do is 
put the transmission in a gear ratio of 19.5:1 and the EV will walk slowly 
down the hill while generating power to my accessories.

Roland


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Chuck Homic" <[email protected]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]du>
Sent: Wednesday, January 23, 2008 10:08 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Faster shifting a clutchless EV


> I hate to be unfashionably low-tech, but if you don't want to do serious
> re-engineering, why not put something like a brake disk on the
> countershaft, which can be manually controlled? A braking system from a
> mountain bike should be enough. I assume you're using a series DC
> motor, so regen through the traction motor is not possible. Regen from
> a tiny alternator is silly, you won't get much usable current from it,
> and it's a lot of work to go through just to slow down the motor shaft.
> The state of the art for slowing down a spinning thing is pretty good.
> Now one could find the similarity between a brake disk and a clutch disk
> ironic, but Dan's predictably predictable answer is a pretty good one.
> It sounds like you want a clutch. (Judging from people's complaints
> about clutchless, and the lack of complaints with having a clutch, I'm
> starting to think I want a clutch, too. With all the money I have
> invested, $250 for a racing flywheel doesn't sound so bad to get rid of
> the "massive flywheel" issue.)
>
> _______________________________________________
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> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

>> My electric DeLorean is a clutchless design and I would like to
>> figure out a way to be able to upshift faster.



> Dale Ulan wrote:
> > If you have a regen-capable controller that can do a very slight
> > regen to match input/output speed, that should do it.
> 
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

There are air shifters kits you can use to replace all your mechanical 
linkage systems. You can use a peddle shifter unit which is place just 
below the steering wheel. See jegs.com

I work with a LINK engineer that use very fast acting electric activators on 
his 4 speed transmission that was control by a Joy Stick.

Roland


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Dale Ulan" <[email protected]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, January 23, 2008 8:58 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Faster shifting a clutchless EV


> > My electric DeLorean is a clutchless design and I would like to figure 
> > out
> a way to be able to upshift faster.
>
>
> If you have a regen-capable controller that can do a very slight regen to
> match input/output speed, that should do it. It has to be matched to the
> motor inertia. Industrial 4-quadrant drives can do this already. Possibly 
> an
> automagic control in there. Some trucks do that using a Jacob's brake
> (engine compression brake) to slow the engine down quickly to match revs. 
> If
> you're running a DC, perhaps you could arranage some other type of motor
> braking arrangement to do that.
>
> -Dale
>
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
> 

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Put the clutch back in.....



-- 
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Seattle EV Association
6021 32nd Ave. N.E.
Seattle, WA 98115-7230
Day: 206 850-8535
Eve: 206 524-1351
e-mail: [email protected]
web: http://www.seattleeva.org

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

I second that motion. Get a clutch. 
It really does make driving a manual transmission EV much easier.
Especially when tiring to start on a steep uphill.
I even push the clutch in well before stop signs and use the flywheel
spinning motion to help me start. I think it save a little energy.
Neal

Dave Delman wrote:
> 
> My electric DeLorean is a clutchless design and I would like to figure out
> a way to be able to upshift faster. That would seem to involve slowing
> the motor faster then it slows when you take your foot off the go pedal. 
> So what is a reasonable way to do this? Would connecting an alternator to
> the CE shaft and having it supply a bit of regeneration power (when in the
> quick shift mode and you foot is off the go pedal) to the pack be
> effective?
> 
> Has anyone ever built a system which monitors the motor speed and the
> drive axle or drive shaft speed and also knows what gear you are in, so
> that it can indicate when the time is right to shift?
> 
> Thank you,
> 
> Dave Delman
> electricdelorean.com
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> 
> From: [email protected]
> Subj: EV Digest, Vol 6, Issue 71
> Date: Tue Jan 22, 2008 3:00 pm
> Size: 54K
> To: [email protected]
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> 
> Today's Topics:
> 
> 1. NYT - Israel Is Set to Promote the Use of Electric Cars
> (Peri Hartman)
> 2. Re: Zagato wiring. (Cor van de Water)
> 3. Re: Lockheed Martin signs agreement with EEStor (Cor van de Water)
> 4. Re: Brake Line Lockers (Peter Oliver)
> 5. Re: KW=amps (Doug Weathers)
> 6. Re: Question from My brother, why EV? (EVDL Administrator)
> 7. Lubricating bearings (should I) on my ADC 9" (Steve Powers)
> 8. Re: [OT] Will the Volt save GM? (Dan Frederiksen)
> 9. Re: NYT - Israel Is Set to Promote the Use of Electric Cars
> (Dan Frederiksen)
> 10. Re: NEDRA SC/A competitinon (was Re: S10 racing at Firebird)
> ([email protected])
> 11. Re: NYT - Israel Is Set to Promote the Use of Electric Cars
> (Bob Rice)
> 12. Re: Hall Effect Pedal (was Re: Feedback on my Ranger EV
> Conversion Project) (Chuck Homic)
> 13. Re: Hall Effect Pedal (was Re: Feedback on my Ranger EV
> Conversion Project) (Mark Eidson)
> 14. Re: Lubricating bearings (should I) on my ADC 9" (Jim Husted)
> 15. Re: Hall Effect Pedal (was Re: Feedback on my Ranger EV
> Conversion Project) (Morgan LaMoore)
> 16. Installing a motor temp monitor (damon henry)
> 17. Breaker Directions ([email protected])
> 18. Israel Goes Electric (Jim Waite)
> 19. LionEV conversion demo - "Ranger DIY" (Steve Condie)
> 20. Re: Lockheed Martin signs agreement with EEStor
> ([email protected])
> 21. Solar charge controller as DC/DC (JS)
> 22. Re: Hall Effect Pedal (was Re: Feedback on my Ranger EV
> Conversion Project) (nicklogan)
> 23. Re: Electric Dragin Weather (keith vansickle)
> 24. Re: Solar charge controller as DC/DC (Evan Tuer)
> 25. Re: LionEV conversion demo - "Ranger DIY" (Dan Frederiksen)
> 26. Re: Solar charge controller as DC/DC (Lee Hart)
> 27. Re: Hall Effect Pedal (was Re: Feedback on my Ranger EV
> Conversion Project) (MIKE WILLMON)
> 
> 
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> Message: 1
> Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2008 21:51:33 -0800
> From: "Peri Hartman" <[email protected]>
> Subject: [EVDL] NYT - Israel Is Set to Promote the Use of Electric
> Cars
> To: "evdl" <[email protected]>
> Message-ID: <[email protected]>
> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
> reply-type=original
> 
> Very encouraging article. Pasted into email since NYT require setting up 
> accounts to browse articles on line.
> 
> New York Times
> By STEVEN ERLANGER
> Published: January 21, 2008
> 
> JERUSALEM - Israel, tiny and bereft of oil, has decided to embrace the 
> electric car.
> 
> On Monday, the Israeli government will announce its support for a broad 
> effort to promote the use of electric cars, embracing a joint venture 
> between an American-Israeli entrepreneur and Renault and its partner,
> Nissan 
> Motor Company.
> 
> Prime Minister Ehud Olmert, with the active support of President Shimon 
> Peres, intends to make Israel a laboratory to test the practicality of an 
> environmentally clean electric car. The state will offer tax incentives to 
> purchasers, and the new company, with a $200 million investment to start, 
> will begin construction of facilities to recharge the cars and replace
> empty 
> batteries quickly.
> 
> The idea, said Shai Agassi, 39, the software entrepreneur behind the new 
> company, is to sell electric car transportation on the model of the 
> cellphone. Purchasers get subsidized hardware - the car - and pay a
> monthly 
> fee for expected mileage, like minutes on a cellphone plan, eliminating 
> concerns about the fluctuating price of gasoline.
> 
> Mr. Agassi and his investors are convinced that the cost of running such a 
> car will be significantly cheaper than a model using gasoline (currently 
> $6.28 a gallon here.)
> 
> "With $100 a barrel oil, we've crossed a historic threshold where 
> electricity and batteries provide a cheaper alternative for consumers,"
> Mr. 
> Agassi said. "You buy a car to go an infinite distance, and we need to 
> create the same feeling for an electric car - that you can fill it up when 
> you stop or sleep and go an infinite distance."
> 
> Mr. Agassi's company, Project Better Place of Palo Alto, Calif., will 
> provide the lithium-ion batteries, which will be able to go 124 miles per 
> charge, and the infrastructure necessary to keep the cars going - whether 
> parking meter-like plugs on city streets or service stations along
> highways, 
> where, in a structure like a car wash, exhausted batteries will be removed 
> and fresh ones inserted.
> 
> Renault and Nissan will provide the cars. The chairman of both companies, 
> Carlos Ghosn, is scheduled to attend the announcements on Monday. Other 
> companies are developing electric cars, like the Tesla and Chevrolet Volt, 
> but the project here is a major step for Renault, which clearly believes 
> that there is a commercial future in electric cars.
> 
> Israel, where the round-trip commute between Tel Aviv and Jerusalem is
> only 
> 75 miles, is considered a good place to test the idea, which Mr. Agassi, 
> Renault and Nissan hope to copy in small countries like Denmark and
> crowded 
> cities like London, Paris, Singapore and New York. London, which has a 
> congestion area tax for cars, lets electric cars enter downtown and park 
> free.
> 
> Project Better Place's major investor, Idan Ofer, 52, has put up $100 
> million for the project and is its board chairman. He will remain chairman 
> of Israel Corporation Ltd., a major owner and operator of shipping
> companies 
> and refineries. "What's driving me is a much wider outlook than Israel,"
> Mr. 
> Ofer said. "If it were just Israel, I'd be cannibalizing my refinery 
> business. I'm not so concerned about the refineries, but building a 
> world-class company. If Israel will ever produce a Nokia, it will be
> this."
> 
> Mr. Ofer has his eye on China, with its increasing car penetration, oil 
> consumption and environmental pollution, where he has interest from a 
> Chinese car company, Chery, for a similar joint venture.
> 
> Renault will offer a small number of electric models of existing vehicles, 
> like the Megane sedan, at prices roughly comparable to gasoline models.
> The 
> batteries will come from Mr. Agassi. The tax breaks for "clean" electric 
> vehicles, which Israel promises to keep until at least 2015, will make the 
> cars cheaper to consumers than gasoline-engine cars. "You'll be able to
> get 
> a nice, high-end car at a price roughly half that of the gasoline model 
> today," Mr. Agassi said.
> 
> He contends that operating expenses will be half of those for 
> gasoline-driven vehicles, especially in Europe and Israel, where gasoline 
> taxes are high. The company, and the consumers who use it, will normally 
> recharge their batteries at night, when the electricity is cheapest, and 
> they expect the batteries to have a life of 7,000 charges, though Mr.
> Agassi 
> says he is counting on only 1,500 charges, which is roughly 150,000 miles, 
> the life of the average car.
> 
> "Because the price of gasoline fluctuates so much during the life of a
> car, 
> it's hard to predict the cost basis for driving," Mr. Agassi said. "But 
> electricity fluctuates less, and you can buy it in advance, so I can give 
> you a guaranteed price per mile, cheaper than the price of gas today."
> 
> Mr. Agassi predicts that a few thousand electric cars will be on Israeli 
> roads in 2009 and 100,000 by the end of 2010; Israel has two million cars
> on 
> the road, and about 10 percent are replaced each year.
> 
> Mr. Agassi suggested this model for the electric car - concentrating on 
> infrastructure rather than on car production - at a 2006 meeting of the 
> Saban Forum of the Brookings Institution, which Mr. Peres attended. He was 
> enthralled by the idea.
> 
> Mr. Peres, who is sometimes dismissed as a dreamer by more cynical
> Israelis, 
> has in the past embraced and helped to develop some successful notions - 
> like Israel's nuclear weapons program. He is a strong believer in Israel's 
> mission to better the world, he says, and not simply sell arms to it.
> Israel 
> is the 11th-largest arms exporter, as measured by dollar sales, according
> to 
> the Stockholm International Peace Research Institute.
> 
> Mr. Peres, who knew Mr. Agassi's father, said in an interview that after 
> hearing Shai Agassi speak: "I called him in and said, 'Shai, now what?' I 
> said that now is the time for him to implement his idea, and I spoke to
> our 
> prime minister and other officials and convinced them that this is a great 
> opportunity."
> 
> "Oil is becoming the greatest problem of our time," Mr. Peres said in an 
> interview in his office. Not only does it pollute, but "it also supports 
> terror and violence from Venezuela to Iran."
> 
> "Israel can't become a major industrial country, but it can become a
> daring 
> world laboratory and a pilot plant for new ideas, like the electric car,"
> he 
> said.
> 
> Mr. Peres sees this project as part of his "green vision" for Israel, 
> arguing that what the nation may lose in tax revenue it will save in oil.
> He 
> also supports a larger investment in solar power, saying that "the Saudis 
> don't control the sun."
> 
> Mr. Ofer wants profits, but also thinks the project will help the 
> environment, especially in developing countries. "China is on a very 
> dangerous march from bicycles to cars without any notion of what they're 
> doing to this planet in terms of air," he said.
> 
> And in Mumbai, he said, "you can't even see the sky."
> 
> James D. Wolfensohn, the former World Bank president, is a modest investor 
> in the project.
> "Israel is a perfect test tube" for the electric car, he said. "The beauty 
> of this is that you have a real place where you can get real human 
> reactions. In Israel they can control the externalities and give it a
> chance 
> to flourish or fail. It needs to be tested, and Agassi is to be commended 
> for testing it and the Israeli government for trying it."
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Message: 2
> Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2008 22:00:39 -0800
> From: "Cor van de Water" <[email protected]>
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Zagato wiring.
> To: "Lawrence Rhodes" <[email protected]>, "Electric Vehicle
> Discussion List" <[email protected]>
> Message-ID:
> <[email protected]>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
> 
> Huh?
> What happened to wheel chocks?
> If necessary, tie a hefty rope to the car and a tree.
> Use a 12V battery or less to try the motor to avoid
> over-revving with unloaded rear end.
> Even better - remove the motor from the car so you can
> bench-test it without crashing anything.... 
> 
> 
> Cor van de Water
> Systems Architect
> Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
> Email: [email protected] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
> Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [email protected]
> Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
> Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
> Second Life: www.secondlife.com/?u=3b42cb3f4ae249319edb487991c30acb
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On
> Behalf Of Lawrence Rhodes
> Sent: Sunday, January 13, 2008 6:48 AM
> To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
> Subject: [EVDL] Zagato wiring.
> 
> The Zagato has a rear mounted motor on the axle with gear reduction. It
> has three traction wires going to the motor. The main contactor is wired
> to the positive(black wire to the motor) & another positive goes to the
> reversing contactors Battery negative goes to the same reversing
> contactor. The other reversing contactor has the two other motor wires
> hooked to it(green & white). . I somehow have to figure out how to put
> full voltage to the motor. I want to keep the reversing contactors but
> lose the two speed contractor controller. I somehow think the forward in
> first speed is running parallel with full voltage & the main contactor is
> used to go full voltage. I can't really experiment as it is a direct
> drive & I don't want it flying out of my grasp. We are on a hill so we
> can't jack it up.
> Lawrence Rhodes.....
> 
> _______________________________________________
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> 
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Message: 3
> Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2008 22:00:38 -0800
> From: "Cor van de Water" <[email protected]>
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Lockheed Martin signs agreement with EEStor
> To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
> Message-ID:
> <[email protected]>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
> 
> Bill,
> 
> That is not the way that the laws of physics work.
> Think about it: if you reduce the thickness of the layer
> between the two plates of the capacitor to half, then
> you would need to cut the voltage in half to maintain
> the same field strength (Volt/meter) between the plates
> in the dielectricum of the capacitor, right?
> So - the energy is cut into 1/4 because of the squared V.
> 
> Now think about the capacitor value:
> - half the distance between the plates means double the capacitance
> - half the thickness means you can pack twice the nr of plates
> in the same volume, so you double the capacitance again.
> Result is that you have 4 times the capacitance and half
> the voltage, which means that the energy is identical.
> 
> ====> as long as you keep the same field strength and the same
> *volume* of dielectricum and the same dielectrical material, you 
> will preserve the amount of energy stored!
> 
> I will make a side-note that quantum-mechanics can severely
> impact this for layers which get too close to the side of an
> atom to still adhere to the traditional laws of physics.
> 
> My guesstimate why they choose 3.5 kV was that they did not dare to
> make the layer any thinner for the risk of it becoming too brittle
> as well as the increase in current may require a thicker plate
> material, which would reduce the effective amount of dielectricum
> per volume, or give much larger losses.
> It could also be that given their chemical process, they arrived
> at a certain dielectricum thickness that was hard to alter, so
> they simply accepted that as a given and specified the voltage
> for the type of capacitor that they could make with their
> optimal process...
> 
> So, in practice there are trade-offs, which have nothing to do with
> the basic law of energy for a capacitor's voltage and capacity,
> as you quoted.
> 
> BTW - anybody know which department of LM is going to run with
> the Eestor? I'd like to understand if they are working on this 
> technology at only a stone throw from my daily commute - I might
> alter my course some day.
> Since my EV can accept up to 700V DC input, I'd like to hear
> what kind of DC/DC is available for the Eestor.
> Even a straight 1:6 bi-directional DC/DC may be sufficient to
> extract the majority of the power from the Eestor and allow a
> real fast re-charge at the 20 KW that my controller supports
> (actually the controller can go higher, the 3-phase inductor
> is the limiting factor, it is already almost a foot long
> transformer core!)
> Also the regenerative braking can make full use of the Eestor's
> capability to take a large burst of power without the problem that
> a typical lead-acid battery shows when you hit it with 100 to 200A
> of charge current.... Ask me how I know.
> 
> FYI, my EV is documented at http://evalbum.com/694
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Cor van de Water
> Systems Architect
> Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
> Email: [email protected] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
> Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [email protected]
> Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
> Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
> Second Life: www.secondlife.com/?u=3b42cb3f4ae249319edb487991c30acb
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On
> Behalf Of Bill Dennis
> Sent: Saturday, January 12, 2008 12:19 AM
> To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Lockheed Martin signs agreement with EEStor
> 
> S Collins wrote:
>> Sure sounds too good to be true.
>>
>> 
> There was much discussion on the EVDL about this a year or two ago,
> including skepticism about whether EEStor could make this work in an EV
> environment. The viability of their product depends on their ability to
> make a very thin, highly pure barium-titanate dielectric for their
> capacitors, and to make it stand up inside the rigors of an EV. The
> other small complication is that their capacitor runs at 3500 volts. 
> The voltage cannot be reduced because that's how the capacitor gets its
> high energy density, which is based on the square of the voltage (1/2 * C
> * V * V). It will make for some interesting controllers and/or chargers
> and/or dc-dc converters.
> 
> Bill Dennis
> 
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
> 
> 
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Message: 4
> Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2008 22:25:39 -0800
> From: "Peter Oliver" <[email protected]>
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Brake Line Lockers
> To: "'Electric Vehicle Discussion List'" <[email protected]>
> Message-ID: <[email protected]>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
> 
> Here is some feed back on the "Microlock" from 2000 so the systems may
> have
> been updated since then
> 
> http://www.thedieselstop.com/archives/ubbthreads/1999EandD/forums.thediesels
> top.com/archives/showflat.php-Cat=&Number=216863&page=14&view=collapsed&sb=5
> &o=&fpart=1.htm
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On
> Behalf
> Of [email protected]
> Sent: Monday, January 21, 2008 8:46 PM
> To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Brake Line Lockers
> 
> You can get a manual line lock unit anywhere that supplies tow truck
> parts.
> I 
> believe they are marketed under the name "Microlock". Installed in the 
> hydraulic line, you simply apply the brakes, flip the lever and your
> brakes
> are 
> locked. Flip again and off ya go. Simple and cheap to install and no 
> electricity to operate. 
> 
> Quoting storm connors <[email protected]>:
> 
>> I was thinking of augmenting my parking brake by installing a line
>> locker on the front brake line. In looking at the specs, they say not
>> to activate the lock for more than 30 seconds. Is this because the
>> solenoid will overheat? Anybody know how much juice the lockers draw?
>> 
>> Perhaps I should look for a manual lock instead of a solenoid operated
> one?
>> 
>> -- 
>> http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/1059
>> http://stormselectric.blogspot.com/
>> Storm
>> 
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> 
> 
> 
> 
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> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Message: 5
> Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2008 23:33:18 -0700
> From: Doug Weathers <[email protected]>
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] KW=amps
> To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <[email protected]>
> Message-ID: <[email protected]>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed
> 
> 
>


> Jack Riggi wrote:
> >
> >> am working on a
> >> altinator that put out 7kw and around 245 amps, just trying to see how
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

I third the motion. The least engineering required would be to put in 
a clutch. Heed that information. Sure you could go through the head 
ache and complicated engineering problems to make something work. If 
you have the money and time and don't need to drive your EV then go 
ahead and make something work and best off all it could actually work 
but if it only proves to just put in the clutch we will have all 
learned a good lesson. Just use a clutch. Easy and it works. Lots 
cheaper and a clutch was used for a reason in the transmission. It 
was found to be the best engineered thing period.



Pete : )






> shred wrote:
> 
> >
> > I second that motion. Get a clutch.
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

But a electric motor is a different beast from an ICE. The clutch made
perfect sense for ICE where you have to be able to idle the motor and
you don't have (or didn't use to have) electronic contoll over the RPM
. The clutch happens to also be a good solution in an EV but maybe not
the best. However, as Lee says "the perfect is the enemy of the good".






> <[email protected]> wrote:
> > I third the motion. The least engineering required would be to put in
> > a clutch. Heed that information. Sure you could go through the head
> > ache and complicated engineering problems to make something work. If
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Aaaah yes the electric motor is different than the ICE but remember 
you are using the transmission from an ICE and it WAS designed to be 
used with a clutch for ease of use and efficiency and long life. Use 
it and be happy. Maybe you can find a better transmission that is 
clutchless that will work best with the electric motor. If you use 
the stock transmission from the vehicle then the easiest way is use 
the clutch. It will work just as well as with the ICE.

Pete : )




> Peter Gabrielsson wrote:
> 
> > But a electric motor is a different beast from an ICE. The clutch made
> > perfect sense for ICE where you have to be able to idle the motor and
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Chuck Homic wrote:
> 
> > I hate to be unfashionably low-tech, but if you don't want to do
> > serious
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Aaah, but the proposed setup where the electric motor rev matches the
desired gear would cause less wear on the synchros and transmission
since it no longer have to spin up and down a 14lbs flywheel. Life
would be longer, ease of use would improve (for a stick shift novice
anyway).

The other Pete 




> <[email protected]> wrote:
> > Aaaah yes the electric motor is different than the ICE but remember
> > you are using the transmission from an ICE and it WAS designed to be
> > used with a clutch for ease of use and efficiency and long life. Use
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Peter Gabrielsson wrote:
> > Aaah, but the proposed setup where the electric motor rev matches the
> > desired gear would cause less wear on the synchros and transmission
> > since it no longer have to spin up and down a 14lbs flywheel. Life
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Dale Ulan" <[email protected]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, January 23, 2008 10:58 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Faster shifting a clutchless EV


>> My electric DeLorean is a clutchless design and I would like to figure 
>> out
> a way to be able to upshift faster.

what about a hand operated band brake on the CE shaft of the motor with a 
cable ran to a bicycle brake handle mounted on your gear shifter. you could 
squeeze it a little while you shift. 8^P 

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

doh, you're right.



> Chuck Homic <[email protected]> wrote:
> > Peter Gabrielsson wrote:
> > > Aaah, but the proposed setup where the electric motor rev matches the
> > > desired gear would cause less wear on the synchros and transmission
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

I've been considering clutch vs clutchless for a while as well. I've 
always loved driving clutch ICEs much better than autos (I even 
'shift' the auto).

But I dont like the clutch in an EV. Why?
(all assuming a standard half-bridge DC controller and a series DC motor)

EVs put out more torque than the original ICE. You will burn out the 
stock clutch fast. So really you need a special racing clutch to 
handle the electric motor.. just so you can shift from 2nd to 3rd once 
in a while?

I dont know anyone who regularly downshifts their ICE to slow the 
vehicle. Which is easier/cheaper to replace: the brake pads or the 
clutch/engine?

I'm not understanding why some people claim that using the 
engine/motor to slow the vehicle is safer than using the brakes. My 
best guess is that using the engine/motor puts a differential between 
the two wheels? Either way it is applying resistance to the wheels. If 
you overcome the initial friction with either method you will slide. 
Arent the brakes designed to decelerate the vehicle and the 
engine/motor to accelerate it?

Anyway.. I'm leaning toward going clutchless to simplify joining the 
motor to the tranny. For me this is great. My commute is on 35MPH 
roads for 5 miles, 55MPH freeway for another 5 miles. Not a lot of 
shifting required. I suppose for some slipping a clutch is necessary 
to hold on a hill.

hey, I just had an idea. My brother drives semi-trucks. His truck is a 
manual tranny, but it has an auto shifter. It monitors engine RPM. 
Then it automatically pushes the clutch, and shifts (double shifts 
actually). This is a standard feature in trucks he says.

-Jon



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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Anyone have any experience (or heresay) about the Azure Dynamics (aka 
Solectria) AC24 motor with their AT1200 gearbox? Seems like another way 
to get rid of that pesky transmission. It was designed for front wheel 
drive but I suspect that on certain cars it could be mounted in the back.

--Rick

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> EVs put out more torque than the original ICE. You will burn out the
> stock clutch fast. So really you need a special racing clutch to
> handle the electric motor.. just so you can shift from 2nd to 3rd once
> in a while?
I don't believe you will find this to be true. Even though there is a clut=
ch, you do not need to use it like a clutch in an ICE. You do not need to =
slip it. For instance a shift from 2 to 3 in an EV can easily be accomplis=
hed by engaging the clutch, shifting the gear, completely disengaging the c=
lutch, THEN getting back on the accelarator. The only force then that is w=
earing on the clutch is the left over inertia from the flywheel, and you ca=
n lighten the flywheel as much as you want as long as you leave enough surf=
ace area to mount the clutch and pressure plate.

> Anyway.. I'm leaning toward going clutchless to simplify joining the
> motor to the tranny. =

I also don't think this is true. Assuming that you still have the whole cl=
utch assembly available from the original ICE, the parts list is the same. =
You still need plates for the motor and tranny, a spacer to fix the depth =
correctly, and some kind of coupler to connect the two shafts. The differe=
nce is that the clutch assembly is part of the coupler if you leave it in, =
you just need a hub to attach to the flywheel. Either way, the parts that =
you have to engineer or buy are essentially the same.

damon
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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Always have. That is how I learned to drive.

: )





> [email protected] wrote:
> 
> > I dont know anyone who regularly downshifts their ICE to slow the
> > vehicle. Which is easier/cheaper to replace: the brake pads or the
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

I do the same... Would rather shear the oil than wear out the pads.
Also, I hate my current warped clutch and so am not worried about
wearing it out and the sound of the engine reving down is pleasing to
my ears.

Red 5spd Formula (that's a Fiero BTW)
Trot, the spirited, fox...



> <[email protected]> wrote:
> > Always have. That is how I learned to drive.
> >
> > : )
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Peter Gabrielsson wrote:
> > But a electric motor is a different beast from an ICE. The clutch made
> > perfect sense for ICE where you have to be able to idle the motor and
> > you don't have (or didn't use to have) electronic contol over the RPM.
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

I use engine braking all the time. Most of the energy is dissipated
as heat, primarily in pumping air across the throttle, recompressing
it, and blowing it out the exhaust.

-Dale

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

>> I don't believe you will find this to be true. Even though there is
>> a clutch, you do not need to use it like a clutch in an ICE. You
>> do not need to slip it.
>
> I had thought this as well. Then I bought a>10 year old EV and took
> it apart to check wear. I had an old mechanic look at the clutch. He
> said there was excessive clutch material in the bell housing, and
> recommended a stronger clutch. Even though the clutch is not being
> slipped in normal use, is it possible that under hard acceleration the
> disk slips due to low (stock) spring pressure? It works just like a
> disk brake after all.
True, the clutch does need to be able to handle the startup torque of the motor. It reminds me of John Waylands Vill not Schlipp clutch he once had in his White Zombie.
>
>
>> I also don't think this is true. Assuming that you still have the
>> whole clutch assembly available from the original ICE, the parts
>> list is the same.
>
> True that the parts list is the same, but alignment might be harder
> with a clutch since the clutch plate floats? The reason I bring it up
> is again the old EV I have has something out of alignment. The
> motor/adapter/clutch vibrate when spun up out of the car. The
> vibration was less when I removed the clutch pack. My case is probably
> unique however. The builder used an extension shaft, extra bearing,
> and clamp on coupler that I think is the culprit. I suppose I could
> keep the clutch, but I want to remove this extension shaft either way.

There may be some merit here as well. The clutch does add extra spinning weight further out from center which may increase the potential for out of balance issues. I spent about three hours spinning mine up on the bench working on getting it balanced before I installed it. I'm still not totally satisfied with the results and think I will eventually pull it back out and have the flywheel trimmed down and the whole assembly balanced at a shop.

I have seen lots of unsatisified clutchless owners. I don't recall ever seeing anyone that regretted leaving the clutch in.

damon
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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

I frequently downshift to slow an ICE!

Joseph H. Strubhar

Web: www.gremcoinc.com

E-mail: [email protected]
----- Original Message ----- 
From: <[email protected]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, January 24, 2008 9:30 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Faster shifting a clutchless EV


> Always have. That is how I learned to drive.
>
> : )
>
>
>
>


> [email protected] wrote:
> >
> >> I dont know anyone who regularly downshifts their ICE to slow the
> >> vehicle. Which is easier/cheaper to replace: the brake pads or the
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Yes. Not doing that will occasionally (only once per car/driver
usually) lead to going over a cliff... since Colorado doesn't really
believe in guard rails, and your brakes heat up and fade halfway down
the hill.

If I'm on a flat road, and am coming to a stop, I'll just put in the
clutch and use the brakes. But mountain driving, I'm always
downshifting and upshifting depending on the slope.

Z



> joe <[email protected]> wrote:
> > I frequently downshift to slow an ICE!
> >
> > Joseph H. Strubhar
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> On 24 Jan 2008 at 11:46, Rick Beebe wrote:
> 
> > Anyone have any experience (or heresay) about the Azure Dynamics (aka
> > Solectria) AC24 motor with their AT1200 gearbox?
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> On 24 Jan 2008 at 21:05, Zeke Yewdall wrote:
> 
> > If I'm on a flat road, and am coming to a stop, I'll just put in the
> > clutch and use the brakes. But mountain driving, I'm always
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Down shifting requires something to resist the motion. in an ICE it is
the compression of the motor when the throttle plate is closed. In an EV
you will just over rev your motor. So downshifting an EV is a waste
unless you have regen, and if you have regen, then just set it to 8% on
off throttle so it slows the motor during up shift and after the
throttle blip for the downshift.

I would rather we get rid of the vestigial appendage of the clutch and
maybe even the multi-speed transmission in EV's  There are lots of
transmission designs that allow shifting without an external clutch.
One of these is interesting in that you push in on the clutch pedal for
first. Once you get moving, you let off and you are in second.

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

One of these is interesting in that you push in on the clutch pedal for> first. Once you get moving, you let off and you are in second.

Sounds like the old model T ford. Low and High
Beano -- 1981 Ford Escort EV 
EValbum 1010Ted Sanders

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Well...... I don't have my EV running yet...  but the plan
(and the pile of parts I've collected so far) for it is a big sepex
motor and a controller out of a 1-ton G-van. Phil says he can regen
almost to a stop in his. I'll still have a transmission instead of
the direct drive of the G-van too (mainly for a lower 1st gear to
handle the hills better). If I lived in Florida this would be so much
easier than in the mountains..... but it doesn't snow in Florida...

Z



> EVDL Administrator <[email protected]> wrote:
> > On 24 Jan 2008 at 21:05, Zeke Yewdall wrote:
> >
> > > If I'm on a flat road, and am coming to a stop, I'll just put in the
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> [email protected] wrote:
> 
> > EVs put out more torque than the original ICE. You will burn
> > out the stock clutch fast. So really you need a special
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

One of these is interesting in that you push in on the clutch pedal for
first. Once you get moving, you let off and you are in second.

Sounds like a Model T. Funny, I was thinking about that yesterday while
reading the Model T owner's manual. Included how to adjust the clutch
bands!

-Dale

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

One more thing about clutches.
A lot of clutches use rpm to increase their grab. The springs give you
the grab at 0 rpm and they have counter weights that increase the grab
as the rpm climbs.
Not all clutches do this but if yours does then it will appear to have
less grab than when connected to the ICE

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Nice to see the vigorous debate on clutch versus no clutch. Of course the 
topic was "Faster shifting a clutchless EV" so all those who recommended 
putting in a clutch missed the point.

Anyway, I really like the simplicity of my clutchless EV and it would have 
been a lot more difficult for me to keep the clutch.

I can shift fine without the clutch it just takes a couple of seconds for 
the input shaft to slow down. The question was how to shift faster without a 
clutch and all those who answered the actual question get extra credit. LOL I 
think the use of a generator or alternator to could slow it down but I agree 
that the amount of time it would be generating any power would be minimal so 
as not to warrant it. I kind of like the idea of the bicycle disc brake....




Thank you,

Dave Delman
1981 Electric DeLorean Project
electricdelorean.com



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