# Who's Killing the Plug-in Hybrid?



## EVDL Archive (Jul 26, 2007)

California Air Resources Board is expected to adopt strict new regulations based on the theory that the innovative plug-in hybrid conversions may be bad for the environment.

More...


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

Once again, california caves in to big oil and carmakers. I guess in california if it moves, it has to be regulated.



> The other potential problem with plug-in hybrids involves unburned gasoline vapors — a real threat to air quality. When gasoline-powered vehicles are turned off, some of the fuel in the gas tank evaporates. These vapors are stored in an adjacent canister built to hold up to three days worth of vapors. If you leave your car's engine turned off for more than three days, the canister overflows and the vapors leak into the air and cause pollution. But if you turn your car on before the three days are up, the canister vents the vapors through the engine, allowing the catalytic converter to clean the emissions before they come out of the tailpipe.QUOTE]
> 
> In other words, its better to burn gasoline than go electric. These cars could in theory go for days at a time without ever turning on their engine, and all they care about is a remote possibility that emissions could spike for a few minutes out of an entire day or week? What about the emissions saved by not running the engine at all? The warranty thing is also a sure way to kill of the new startups.
> 
> I bet they'll start to tighten up on home conversions eventually too.


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## Technologic (Jul 20, 2008)

Ironicly, california gets a large part of their electricity from hydroelectricity and a large volume of private residences are solar powered (largest proportion in the USA)

talk about hypocrisy.


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## Jason Lattimer (Dec 27, 2008)

Once again California shows itself to be nothing more than a group of political neanderthals who only want to flex their might. They have no idea what they are doing nor do they care. They only want to show who is boss.


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## ClintK (Apr 27, 2008)

david85 said:


> Once again, california caves in to big oil and carmakers. I guess in california if it moves, it has to be regulated.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


How do gas stations that store tens of thousands of gasoline handle that problem? Do they have giant canisters or something?


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## Technologic (Jul 20, 2008)

ClintK said:


> How do gas stations that store tens of thousands of gasoline handle that problem? Do they have giant canisters or something?


They store it underground in 25,000-50,000 gallon tanks... which if the station goes out of busines are often not pulled out or emptied...

This is a serious problem in many northern states where ancient oil has been seeping into the city's well water for 20-30 years. It's thought that if you dug a well in NYC or NJ, the water would kill you in many places because of this.

I believe the last I heard there was about 30,000 known abandoned gasoline station tanks in new jersey that have yet to be dug up.

California has the largest hydroelectric resources in the US, most of which are tapped I believe
They're just making a god damn fuss and crying over lost revenue that will be inevitable from electric cars.

You can't stop progress, though the government just loves to slow it down.


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

The evaporative emission statement really gets me though. Basically, if you follow that screwed up way of thinking (almost said logic! but caught myself), the prius is polluting more just sitting in the driveway not running than driving 75 MPH down the interstate. So why not tax the people that walk or cycle to work because their cars are at home sitting in the driveway, emitting hydrocarbon volatile fumes?

Sometimes I wonder if lawmakers in california can hear themselves.


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## GKnightBC (Sep 10, 2008)

I'm sorry?! Did I just understand this correctly? They are saying that hybrids are bad because they may let gas fumes leak?!? When did normal ICE vehicles leak, unless some Hollywood special effects crew put a hole in the tank? Did they ever hear about "pressure lock", when your gas cap is not on , your car will stall or fail to run for long. The gas tank is sealed enough for that to happen, why is a hybrid suddenly a culprit?
Also, I believe that vapourous gasoline is heavier than air, and is not "emissions" until is gets burned. You put raw gasoline through your catalytic converter and you'll get some nice clogs....

If ICE cars leaked fumes when left idle, we would be having a lot of exploding cars in underground parkades...


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## Technologic (Jul 20, 2008)

GKnightBC said:


> I'm sorry?! Did I just understand this correctly? They are saying that hybrids are bad because they may let gas fumes leak?!? ...


It's one of the most retarded things I've read in awhile, (of course I'm reading the _Emile_ by Rousseau right now, so I can't say it gets the *most* retarded award). Of course the public outcry won't even be heard at all, since gas is cheap.


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## tj4fa (May 25, 2008)

CARB members...

Is their brain-damage due to the burnt hydrocarbons or is it from gas vapors?

If Plug-in BEVs and Hybrids help clean up the air then I guess they're out of a job. They can't let that happen.

What a bunch of morons...


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## Sega (Mar 24, 2008)

I've heard that there is a criticism for PHEVs because the catalytic converter doesn't have time to warm up, it needs 6 miles of driving on the ICE. That seems silly because driving on electric would just delay that, it's not making anything worse.

Has anyone else heard that before? The vapors is news to me.


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## tj4fa (May 25, 2008)

Sega said:


> I've heard that there is a criticism for PHEVs because the catalytic converter doesn't have time to warm up, it needs 6 miles of driving on the ICE. That seems silly because driving on electric would just delay that, it's not making anything worse.
> 
> Has anyone else heard that before? The vapors is news to me.


CARB creating another issue out of thin air.

I think their contention is that gas-electric hybrids start/restart many times back and forth per trip driving around whereas ICE only powered vehicles start up only a few times a day. 

It would seem to me in the normal scenario that once a gas-electric hybrid starts up the first time, it would be sufficiently warm enough to continue to do its thing. 

I guess they must feel that extending the run-time with batteries may cause more time for the catalytic converter to get cold causing a cold restart of the catalytic converter.

If vehicles didn't use gasoline and got 60 -100 miles on a charge like the EV1 they helped kill with their bureacratic bullshit, they wouldn't need a catalytic converter or have a smog problem now.

In other words, they would have put themselves out of a job.


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## Jason Lattimer (Dec 27, 2008)

People need to stop screwing around with hybrids. They are the answer to a problem that does not exist. If I remember the study right 95% of people drive 50 miles a day or less. Well within the range of an electric car. Hybrids have all the complexities of two drive systems and few of the benefits of either.


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

Plug in hybrids have a limited role to play, but what I dislike about this law the most is that it seems to be custom engineered to kill off small startups that are doing all the real pioneering while the big companies piss and moan about how hard it is to make a dishonest living and beg for tax dollars to do nothing but waste space.

The law could indeed affect converted EVs as well because of the warranty requirement on the battery. I don't know if any of this law could apply to BEVs or if its strictly for HEVs but it wouldn't take that much extra effort to impose the law on all converted EVs.


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## Technologic (Jul 20, 2008)

david85 said:


> Plug in hybrids have a limited role to play, but what I dislike about this law the most is that it seems to be custom engineered to kill off small startups that are doing all the real pioneering while the big companies piss and moan about how hard it is to make a dishonest living and beg for tax dollars to do nothing but waste space.


exactly my thoughts.


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