# Re: [EVDL] Pricing for an EV project



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Pricing for an EV project*

Oh man your killing me! I looked for a square back but came up with nothing,
I used to have a 69, loved it, but any how, good luck keep us posted.
lucky dog
what are you going to do with the motor? and cowling?
I would be interested. is it still FI?



> Chapco <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> >
> > Hello Folks,
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Pricing for an EV project*

Brent (Chapco) wrote:

> I have a VW Type 3 Squareback and wanting to convert to a
> short range car with the capability to drive on the
> expressway about 10 miles at 45 / 55 mph.
> Just an around town car. (I live in a pretty flat location
> with about a 15 mile range from one end of town to the other.
>
> I have looked at the wilderness EV 144 volt DC conversion kit:
> Price is $5,495 +shipping.
> This pretty much has everything but the batteries.
>
> The other option I am looking at is the Cloud EV:
> Conversion Kit 108-120V Warp 9" Impulse Motor & Curtis
> Controller Price is $3,699.00 + Shipping With this one I
> would need to source the adapter plate, shaft coupler, and
> charging systems for both the 120v and 12v and Batteries.
>
> I priced some of the parts out separately and really the
> numbers would come out pretty similar.
> Would I be better off with using a "kit" that has been pretty
> much tested rather than building up my own, or is there some
> specs I can use from other vehicles that might be a better option.

Quite frankly, I wouldn't consider either of these to be a "conversion kit"=
; more like a component package. And, the picture of the package contents =
on the Wilderness Evs site tells me that you're paying for some stuff that =
you'd be better off throwing away (e.g the battery clamps). Also, the Wild=
erness EV kit states that it includes a Kilovac contactor, but the picture =
clearly shows an Albright.

A "real" conversion kit such as the likes offered by ElectroAutomotive or C=
anadian Electric Vehicles will include all of the components needed, but is=
also vehicle-specific and includes battery racks, brackets, etc. ready to =
install into your particular vehicle along with step-by-step instructions.

> Or thoughts on comparisons with the Warp motor compared to
> the D&D? (not worried about low end torque so much at this
> point, but would like to go up longer hills from time to time
> as there is a ski resort within 20 miles of my home)

The Wilderness EVs kit includes a 6.7" motor vs Cloud's 9" Warp; the 9" in =
question is the Impulse version, which I gather is similar to an ADC 8" in =
power capability (i.e. greater power capability for longer than a lighter, =
smaller 6.7".

The Wilderness EVs kit includes a 12V charger for the house battery rather =
than a proper DC/DC; that and the cheesy battery clamps are major turn-offs=
for this option. The major components (motor, controller, charger) are de=
cent choices, though I expect the 6.7" D&D motor will be better suited to a=
light vehicle that doesn't need to sustain high power for long (e.g. hill =
climbing).

Personally, I'd pass on either. An Impulse 9/Curtis 1231C bought from EV P=
arts (for instance) runs $1600 + 1950 =3D $3550 vs Cloud's "kit" at $3700 f=
or the same parts; put the $150 difference toward shipping.

My own suggestion is to pick the parts you want and buy them from a reputab=
le vendor. Browsing the EV Parts site, here's a possible shopping list:

Air-cooled VW motor adapter (clutch type) for ADC 8" or 9": $999
<http://www.evparts.com/prod-AK2110.htm> or <http://www.evparts.com/prod-AK=
2111.htm>

ADC 8": ~$1500 <http://www.evparts.com/prod-MT2117.htm>

Caf=E9 Electric Zilla 1K-LV: $1975 <http://www.evparts.com/prod-CT2510.htm>

Curtic PB-6 potbox: $99 <http://www.evparts.com/prod-PB2221.htm>

Albright SW-200 Contactor: $133 <http://www.evparts.com/prod-SL2558.htm>

Iota 45A DC/DC: $204 <http://www.evparts.com/prod-DC2461.htm>

Lug 2/0, 5/16" hole: $2.68 <http://www.evparts.com/prod-TM2331.htm> (* 24 =
=3D ~$65 assuming 6VGCs)

Heinemann breaker: $221 <http://www.evparts.com/prod-CB2410.htm>

500A 250VDC fuse: $61 <http://www.evparts.com/prod-FU9532.htm>

500A 50mV shunt: $35 <http://www.evparts.com/prod-SH2516.htm>

500A ammeter: $65 <http://www.evparts.com/prod-IN2514.htm>

80-180V expanded scale voltmeter: $65 <http://www.evparts.com/prod-IN2548.h=
tm>

Total: $5422. This gives you a larger motor (knock $500 off if you choose =
to go with a 6.7" instead; add $100 for an Impulse 9), and a much better, m=
ore powerful controller (1000A vs 400A in the Wilderness EVs kit, if their =
kit description can be trusted). It also gives you a proper 12V DC/DC to k=
eep your house battery topped off and your lights crisp and wipers brisk. =
And, it includes both a main fuse and a breaker. It doesn't include the (a=
ssumed 2/0) traction cable, as well as a few minor odds and ends that you'l=
l need to complete the conversion.

Not included is a charger; some possibilities include:

Charger option 1: Russco SC18-120 + boost transformer (12.5A max out; $870 =
+ $175 =3D $1045)
<http://www.evparts.com/prod-CH2450.htm>
<http://www.evparts.com/prod-CP2440.htm>

Charger option 2: Russco SC30-120DSO + boost transformer (17.5A max out; $=
1084 + $225 =3D
<http://www.evparts.com/prod-CH2452.htm>
<http://www.evparts.com/prod-CP2441.htm>

Charger option 2: Manzanita Micro PFC20 (20A max out; $1960)
<http://www.evparts.com/prod-CH2440.htm>

Of couse, an isolated charger such as the Zivan NG-3 in the Wilderness EVs =
kit, or a smaller NG-1 (if you are fine with charging overnight) is also an=
option, but I couldn't find prices for them on the EV Parts site and ther'=
s a limit to how much shopping I'm willing to do for you ;^>

I've assumed (particularly in my choice of battery lugs) that you would use=
a 144V pack of 6V floodeds. This may be a larger (and heavier!) pack than=
your poor Squareback can handle. For a first pack, I strongly recommend f=
looded lead acid for your batteries as they are about the most forgiving ch=
oice. If you can't fit/carry this sort of pack (about 1500lbs), you could =
go to flooded 8VGCs to drop the weight below 1200lbs (with a reduction in p=
eak power available). Flooded 12Vs are generally not recommended, however,=
you might consider something like the Trojan J150 Plus (70min @ 75A, 83lb =
flooded 12V): <http://www.trojanbattery.com/Products/J150Plus12V.aspx>. Th=
is option would drop your pack to (just) under 1000lbs. Stay away from the=
marine/RV "dual-purpose" type flooded 12V batteries as they tend not to st=
and up to the high discharge currents in an on-road EV. When it comes time=
to replace this pack, you might choose to install a set of higher-performa=
nce 12V AGMs, such as Group 31 Optimas or similar size models from Hawker/O=
dyssey (and a set of Rudman Regs).

Cheers,

Roger.

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Pricing for an EV project*

Thanks for the info everyone who emailed me.
I have been researching but there sometimes is more info than one can
consume over 2 years and its hard to be patient and allow yourself to listen
and the "kits" seemed like an easy selling point for my wife. I shared the
info with her and she agreed there are possibly some better options around
the same price, so I can keep moving forward.
I would really like to go with the zilla, but I guess the 4 month lead time
freaked me out a little. I suppose I can be patient for something nice and
spend a few months with the welder and building up some sweet support
suspension components and battery supports and find areas to drop weight at
the same time.

I think Rogers message helped me realize there are more than a few options
to building up a part selection on your own.


Randy, the Squareback is still gas powered.
When I get it started for the project I will put my progress on a blog as i
have a bunch of friends interested but afraid to start.
I am still considering converting a notchback that doesnt have a motor in
it, or an actually really nice conditioned fastback that is for sale in town
for $600 . of course my friends are inspired and might look at doing the
same thing with those cars.

Cheers,
Brent




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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Pricing for an EV project*

So crazy. I am in the process of converting a 1973 Type III squareback myself
and am in the beginning stages. Someone gave me the car and I was going to
sell it, but am now deep into research and literally still a bolt away from
the engine being removed. I am going to use an Advance DC 203-06-4001A motor
(8") and Curtis Controller 1221C in a 96V system. This way I can upgrade to
120V if necessary but for me this car will be an 8mile one-way city commute
car, so I don't need any performance engine. I am still unsure of whether to
use Trojans or Optimas (flooded lead acid vs. AGM), though I am planning on
using the 12V T-1275 Trojans. All told, I think it is going to cost between
5000-6500. I am keeping a blog - squarebackev.blogspot.com - so when you
start your blog please post your address here as I'd like to see your
progress.

Ken
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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Pricing for an EV project*

Weird. For the longest time Lou's Squareback was the only one in the EV
album... Now here's you guys all converting Squarebacks.

Oh, BTW, my 68' Squareback is in the driveway, undergoing conversion right
now. 23 miles round trip. No charge at work. 1/2 highway (55), 1/2 city
(30).

clutchless
1221c 120v/400a
8" series-wound (of unknown origin) nameplate says 69v 12.5hp
Floodies

options being considered...

contactor controller
Hawkers
Lithium

Considering Lithium batteries since they are the same price as floodies for
total lifetime energy delivered. I have the Hawkers already, but if I have
to ever replace them they will be 4 to 5 times the cost of floodies/lithium.


Stay Charged!
Hump





> kenaparsons wrote:
> >
> > So crazy. I am in the process of converting a 1973 Type III squareback
> > myself and am in the beginning stages. Someone gave me the car and I was
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Pricing for an EV project*



> On 14 May 2008 at 7:19, Tim Humphrey wrote:
> 
> > 8" series-wound (of unknown origin) nameplate says 69v 12.5hp
> 
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Pricing for an EV project*



> On 14 May 2008 at 5:59, kenaparsons wrote:
> 
> > I am going to use an Advance DC 203-06-4001A motor
> > (8") and Curtis Controller 1221C in a 96V system. This way I can upgrade to
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Pricing for an EV project*



> EVDL Administrator wrote:
> >
> > On 14 May 2008 at 5:59, kenaparsons wrote:
> >
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Pricing for an EV project*

I'd reccomend that wen building the battery racks, you allow for expansion
of your pack in the future.

My guess is that when you need to replace the 12V batteries this coming
winter, you'll want to go with something that lasts a bit longer.


> for me, I am willing to sacrifice a bit
> of performance and range for a lighter battery pack and a smaller battery
> footprint in the car. It would take 12 8V (756 lbs) batteries and 16 6V
> batteries (1152lbs) and since the size difference from the 8 12V batteries
> (656 lbs) is minimal (only 2 inches saved in length per battery), the
> space
> (and, in the case of 6V T-145, the weight) is quite a lot for me to add.
> Not
> to mention, w/ my 8 mile commute and my secondary reliance on this vehicle
> (my primary is still going to be a trade-off between my bike and the bus),
> I
> am trying to keep things small and simple in the design and performance.
> But, your point still stands, over time I am spending more to do this than
> to use the 6V or 8V system. Ultimately though, as of yesterday morning,
> for
> me now the consideration is over - I a bit reluctantly went w/ the
> T-1275's
> and purchased them from a great vendor in Anderson, IN, Joe Carter at
> Battery Experts. Thanks though David for the sound advice.
> --
> View this message in context:
> http://www.nabble.com/Pricing-for-an-EV-project-tp17027249p17293378.html
> Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at
> Nabble.com.
>
> _______________________________________________
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>


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Pricing for an EV project*

Wait, this coming winter I'll need to replace it? I hope that is a joke...So
how much worse off is a 12V pack than the 8V or 6V pack? I was under the
impression that I was sacrificing range and speed, not longevity, by using
12V batteries. Where is there evidence that 12V's don't last as long?

And yes, I did allow for the usual expansion but hopefully I won't be
abusing these batteries too much and avoid serious swelling.





> Peter VanDerWal wrote:
> >
> > I'd reccomend that wen building the battery racks, you allow for expansion
> > of your pack in the future.
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Pricing for an EV project*



> On 17 May 2008 at 20:15, kenaparsons wrote:
> 
> > Where is there evidence that 12V's don't last as long?
> 
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Pricing for an EV project*

Ah, well yes, bad news, but I totally appreciate the honesty and information.
I had seen that 12V were less than ideal, but your points are sound. I am
going to think about designing the vehicle for 8Vs in the future when I
think about welding a frame and when I end up having to replace these.
Again, thank you.





> EVDL Administrator wrote:
> >
> > On 17 May 2008 at 20:15, kenaparsons wrote:
> >
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Pricing for an EV project*

Hi Ken and All,

Trojan uses the same cells for different
batts. My guess is the 1275 uses the same plates as a Trojan
8v one that weighs about 3/4's it's weight or about
60-63lbs. So switching to that 8 v batt won't help you at
all and probably cost you more. The next size up 8v batt
could increase range.
How long they last is more to how well you
treat them. With a good charger and not hammering them with
high currents above 3-400 amps, you should do alright for a
short range EV.
For best cost maybe reduce battery
voltage, use 6v batts and use higher amp controller for the
same power for a drive, battery pack that costs a fair
amount less. I don' remember your exact glider so this is
general info.

Jerry Dycus

----- Original Message Follows -----
From: kenaparsons <[email protected]>
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Pricing for an EV project
Date: Sun, 18 May 2008 06:59:32 -0700 (PDT)

>Ah, well yes, bad news, but I totally appreciate the
>honesty and information. I had seen that 12V were less than
>ideal, but your points are sound. I am going to think about
>designing the vehicle for 8Vs in the future when I think
>about welding a frame and when I end up having to replace
>these. Again, thank you.
>
>
>


> >EVDL Administrator wrote:
> >>
> >> On 17 May 2008 at 20:15, kenaparsons wrote:
> >>
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Pricing for an EV project*



> Jerryd wrote:
> 
> > Trojan uses the same cells for different
> > batts.
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Pricing for an EV project*



> On 19 May 2008 at 22:14, Roger Stockton wrote:
> 
> > 12V floodies have earned a bad reputation largely based on the
> > performance of marine dual-purpose and/or trolling batteries in on-road
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Pricing for an EV project*



> Roger Stockton wrote:
> >> 12V floodies have earned a bad reputation largely based on the
> >> performance of marine dual-purpose and/or trolling batteries in
> >> on-road EVs.
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Pricing for an EV project*



> Tim Humphrey wrote:
> >> 8" series-wound (of unknown origin) nameplate says 69v 12.5hp
> 
> EVDL Administrator wrote:
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Pricing for an EV project*



> On 20 May 2008 at 16:22, Lee Hart wrote:
> 
> > I think one factor is that people try to draw the same current from an 8v
> > or 12v battery as they did from a 6v battery. The plates may be the same,
> ...


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