# [EVDL] Help me with this debate



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Chip Gribben wrote:
> 
> > OK. Help me refute this. You all can email me directly or jump into the debate on FB.
> >
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

You can make electricity without oil. You cannot make oil without
electricity. It takes more electricity to make a gallon of gas than it does
to drive the distance than gallon would give you in an electric car.

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Chip Gribben wrote:
> 
> > OK. Help me refute this. You all can email me directly or jump into
> > the debate on FB.
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Ed,
Great comparison! The Leaf is indeed built on the same platform as the
Versa, therefore you have found an excellent apples to apples comparison.
Thank you!
-Tom



> Ed Blackmond <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> >
> > On Mar 3, 2012, at 8:05 AM, Chip Gribben wrote:
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> On 3 Mar 2012 at 11:05, Chip Gribben wrote:
> 
> > The reason it's (fossil fuels) economical is because
> > fossil fuels deliver the most energy per unit of volume
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Economics has nothing to do with it. Driving electric whenever possible is
the right thing to do because -

It's the right thing to do.

Seriously, who with an IQ over 50 can defend oil as better for humankind?
More convenient, yes. Cheaper, yes. (As of today, but these comparisons
are changing fast.) Not better. If you can't see that you aren't paying
attention or you have an agenda.

We drive electric because it's the right thing to do. End of story.

Chris
LeSled is for sale!
http://www.evalbum.com/274
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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

The reason that it is the right thing to is because
a large part of the (hidden) cost of oil is not
reflected into the price of oil, for example the
effect on environment and health from pollution.

Since this is an EV list, I won't go any deeper into
that morass, but I completely agree that EVs are 
the right thing where appropriate (only about 95%
of the time ;-)


Cor van de Water
Chief Scientist
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
Email: [email protected] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water XoIP: +31877841130
Tel: +1 408 383 7626 Tel: +91 (040)23117400 x203 

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On
Behalf Of Chris Tromley
Sent: Saturday, March 03, 2012 7:18 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Help me with this debate

Economics has nothing to do with it. Driving electric whenever possible
is the right thing to do because -

It's the right thing to do.

Seriously, who with an IQ over 50 can defend oil as better for
humankind?
More convenient, yes. Cheaper, yes. (As of today, but these
comparisons are changing fast.) Not better. If you can't see that you
aren't paying attention or you have an agenda.

We drive electric because it's the right thing to do. End of story.

Chris
LeSled is for sale!
http://www.evalbum.com/274
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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Voltswagon wrote
> 
> It takes more electricity to make a gallon of gas than it does to drive
> the distance than gallon would give you in an electric car.
> 

I see this repeated too often and I don't believe it's accurate. There
seems to be around 7kWh's of ENERGY used to recover, transport, and refine a
gallon of gas, probably more for tar sands oil, but only a small portion of
that is actual electricity, and much of that electricity is generated on
site in co-generation plants. 

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

AMPhibian wrote
> 
> 
> Voltswagon wrote
>> 
>> It takes more electricity to make a gallon of gas than it does to drive
>> the distance than gallon would give you in an electric car.
>> 
> 
> I see this repeated too often and I don't believe it's accurate. There
> seems to be around 7kWh's of ENERGY used to recover, transport, and refine
> a gallon of gas, probably more for tar sands oil, but only a small portion
> of that is actual electricity, and much of that electricity is generated
> on site in co-generation plants.
> 

I had also heard this, and it's not quite true. You can see my realization
in this thread a few months back:
http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/EVLN-Nissan-labels-dirty-power-claims-bs-tp4159325p4161061.html;cid=1330908472113-711



-----
Dan Gallagher
http://www.evalbum.com/3854

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

7KWh will get my archaic Electrabishi conversion 21 miles, it got 15 mpg
when it was a gasser. Proof is in the pudding ;-)



> AMPhibian <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> >
> > Voltswagon wrote
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Very well stated!!! Energy density of gas is higher. But it has to be to
compete with electricity which is much more efficient to use.

I think Global warming is caused not by the CO2, but by the heat we are
pumping into our atmosphere through our radiators. Think about the heat
required by say a 20 story business building. Then think about the heat
wasted by the ICE's that those people have to drive to get to work each
day. I would venture that more is wasted in driving to work than by
heating their building. Yet we burn fuel to do both :-O

Its not a matter of whether ICE or electric is better or more efficient, or
cheaper in the short term than the other, its about what solution will
decrease the usage of energy. Burning oil is way more efficient in the
power plant than it is in your car, and cleaner too. Our Federal government
makes sure of that. Not to mention the cost effectiveness of getting it to
your car via power lines over the crude way we have of dumping fuel tanks
from semi's to all the local gas stations... don't they use fuel too?

Someone prove me wrong.

Power companies pride themselves on their efficiencies of power generation,
do car manufacturers? A car manufacturer should be brought to the table to
prove that the energy efficiency of their car is better than using the
electricity of the electrical power plant. That ought to get interesting
as the "Power" companies start going to more renewable generation methods,
and they already are.

We oughtta be lobbying the electrical power companies to herald the coming
of EV's. Too bad many of them are in the clutches of the oil producers.
But they don't have to be 

Mike



> Gary Krysztopik <[email protected]>wrote:
> 
> > Some have already mentioned the externalities associated with gas and
> > that the real cost is upwards of $10 per gallon when considering some
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

I'm not sure what you are proving since the "7kWh of electricity used to
produce a gallon of gas" figure is not accurate. Actual electricity used in
the operation of a refinery works out to probably less than 1kWh per gallon,
which will get your car less than 3 miles.


Mike Willmon wrote
> 
> 7KWh will get my archaic Electrabishi conversion 21 miles, it got 15 mpg
> when it was a gasser. Proof is in the pudding ;-)
> 
>


> AMPhibian <[email protected]> wrote:
> >
> >>
> >> Voltswagon wrote
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Mike Willmon wrote
> 
> 
> 
> Someone prove me wrong.
> 
> Mike
> 
> 

I believe the GREET model takes into account all inputs into the systems,
well to wheels and all that.

http://greet.es.anl.gov/

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