# Is there a 144V+ AC motor and controller w/ regen braking?!?



## SublimeZ (Aug 15, 2008)

Reverse trike setup

Want regen brakin with needs an AC motor right?

Can't find controller with 144V-168V for AC motor... where can I get one?

Zilla doesn't make an AC controller right?

If I use more than 168V on a motor rated around 144V do the controllers recognize that and simply provide the power needed to the motor without blowing it up? If not, how could I set it up? Ex. 20 12V batteries running to an 8" motor (not brand specific unless it needs to be).
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Wendie 99


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## TX_Dj (Jul 25, 2008)

You'll need a lot more volts than that to run AC.


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## madderscience (Jun 28, 2008)

AC motors and controllers are generally a matched pair and sold together. Many want 200-300 volts of battery to perform well.

look at http://www.metricmind.com


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## SublimeZ (Aug 15, 2008)

I guess I just misunderstood the wiki link for controller information; http://www.diyelectriccar.com/blogs/2007/12/2007-ev-motor-controller-roundup.html.

regenis cool but, what does the AC have to offer besides that? a setup at 300V I'd be using 25 batteries? what is gained to make up for the min. extra weight?

What if there were more batteries than the system is rated for? do u just have to get a higher system or will will not use those batteries until needed and let u get further range? what effetcs doe htis have?

if i went dc, what effect would using more batteries, like 20 batteries and 220 volts with a zilla controller (there rated highter then that arent they?) if i still have a motor rated at 144 volt? if i build a vehicle that had the weight to spare and wanted more distance could i use a few extra batteries to prolong it or would the controller just fry the motor cuz the motr isnt ready for it?
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WATCH HER CLITORIS SPASM WITH ORGASM


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## TX_Dj (Jul 25, 2008)

Curtis PWM controllers are for DC motors. I may be wrong, but I don't think Curtis makes VFD's? (AC controller)

AC is more efficient than DC (that's why our homes are powered with AC), AC motors typically can spin much faster, which gives them a higher continuous horsepower rating in some cases, and can be used with lower gear ratios in a "direct drive" configuration, which permits the entire needs of the vehicle to be served without a "gear shift"...

Regen is available in DC, just not so much with a series-DC motor, at least not without getting creative.

I assume by "batteries" you are referring to a 12v sealed lead acid, and yes, 25 of those in series would provide a 300v nominal voltage. Since lead acid batteries are bulky, taking up a lot of room and weighing a lot, AC-powered vehicles typically tend to use other battery chemistries which provide better density (energy) in less space with less weight, so the range AND voltage requirements can be met. This typically means a NiMH or Li-Ion type chemistry, which are $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ cha-ching!

As for your question about "30 batteries" it would all depend on the capabilities of the drive system. For instance, in the DC world, the Zilla Z2K-HV can provide 1600 amps at 400v. However, most motors that you would want to use will be "used up" quickly at that kind of power rating (that's 640kW or 858 HP) just like a drag-racing motor of similar output.


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## SublimeZ (Aug 15, 2008)

ps. may want to have someone check on the link i posted above. it lists 48v controllers with ac motors listed nextto it. may just be some typos or something. kinda confusing for the new guys

so. ac motors are good for when u have the cash for batteries and they are generally more efficient.

dcs can have regen with a little fab and some creativity.

running a motor on a hight volt system can work, just will not work for long, essentially defating the purpose as ull need new motors.

is there a way to have extra batteries that dont go the the motor until the others are drained? like two tanks on a diesel truck moved with a switch? would this not help given the additonal weight?

would if i just run a dc at 168 with a zilla. then have two sepreate batteries running electrical with a marine grade soalr panel for a small trickle charge that way it doesnt pull from the motr and i dont have a loss like lights, brakes, ect. besides the loss due to extra weight?
________
SuperFun


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## TX_Dj (Jul 25, 2008)

Ah, so Curtis does make AC stuff too. Those parts are designed for things like industrial parts movers, pallet jacks, etc... not for street vehicles.

The thing about regen, especially if you get crafty by fabricating a way to do it on a larger vehicle, is that you really don't get much of the kinetic energy returned to the battery. Small percentages. You'd have to decide if carrying the extra weight for things that would make regen a possibility, and the additional complexity of that sort of setup, if it outweighs (no pun intended) the return or not. FWIW, my understanding is that the prius uses an external alternator for its regen and pack charger.

The higher your voltage is, the less amps you have to draw from the battery. Because of this, if you have enough room and weight carrying capacity to store a total of, lets say, 200v worth of batteries, you will gain efficiencies from running 200v, not running 100v until that pack is nearing discharge and switch over. This is because of a thing called the peukert effect, wherein the more amps you draw from the pack in a period of time, the less energy the pack can deliver as a whole. This is demonstrated by the amp-hour capacity ratings on the battery. I.E. at the 20-hour rate, the battery will have a higher rating than at the 5-hour rate.

I'm not sure I follow everything in your final question though. More weight always means less performance and shorter range. There is a law of diminishing returns on adding more battery weight. That is to say you will gain less additional range with each additional battery added to the system, give or take. I.E. if you could go 30 miles with 1500 lbs of batteries, that does not mean that you could go 60 miles with 3000 lbs of batteries. 

As for the solar panels, if you have a lead on high-output low-weight inexpensive solar panels, please let me know. I could use some. I'll not include any on my truck because I don't want the weight of them and associated accessories adding to the weight of my truck. There is a guy locally who has solar cells on his fiero, but they are worth about 45w each, and he has 6 if I recall, or 270w. So, if you consume 1 kWh and park in the sun, it will take nearly 4 hours of direct sunlight to replenish that small amount of power. On the other hand, 1 kWh is ~$0.12. It helps, but like with the regen, you'll have to evaluate your options, look into your budget, and decide if the cost and weight make it a good fit for the small amount of free power you will receive back from them each day.


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## SublimeZ (Aug 15, 2008)

I guess ill just run 168v with a zilla. see what range i have then play with it from there. anyone have a line of a deal for a zilla controller? any motor sugestions? 8" will give me power but 9" and 11" will give me what? when looking for range, whats best?
________
JaylaDiamond


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## TX_Dj (Jul 25, 2008)

The cheapest zilla that would support a 168v pack voltage is about $2700 and has no additional options. If you step down to 156v or less, you could save $700 or so, still with no options. The zilla controllers have some interesting features that can be added later if needs be, but are quite useful from the start.

Since you're talking about a reverse trike setup, we'd need to know what the weight of the vehicle would be, and the terrain types in your area in order to suggest a motor configuration, but an 8" would get the job done, I'm sure. Bigger = more torque / more continuous horsepower rating.


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## mark1030 (Jul 28, 2008)

Electro Automotive sells Azure Dynamics AC motors (Solectria) that run on 144 Volts, so you could use 12 12V batteries if you so desired.

P.S. I think the reason we use AC instead of DC in our houses is because the Utility can transform AC. It gets transmitted at very high voltages (like 34KV or more) at relatively low currents so the wires running across the country can be reasonably small. After it gets where it's going it gets transformed into a usable voltage.


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## xrotaryguy (Jul 26, 2007)

An AC system does not require a large number of heavy 12V 150Ah batteries. You can use smaller lighter 12V batteries with a lower Ah rating. For example, my car will use 52 12V 17Ah batteries. This gives me a total of 648V nominal pack voltage and 17Ah. The total pack energy storage capacity is about 11 KWh. Each battery weighs about 20 lbs. The entire pack will weigh about 1040 lbs. That's heavy, but it's not nearly as heavy as 52 12V 150Ah Trojans.

AC motors will do regen without any problems. Series wound DC regen is a bit shaky still. Kelly has a controller that will do it, but some people are evidently having trouble with it. Kelly is responding well though with super customer service from what I hear.

AC motors also run at higher voltage which allows you to pull lower amperage. Lower amperage means that you can run smaller gauge wiring which is cheaper and lighter. Lower amperage through the motor also means less energy converted to heat (assuming we're comparing motors with the same gauge windings I guess). 

Another advantage is that AC motors don't really need any maintenance. Not that DC motors require lots of maintenance...

In general, AC can outperform DC. However, DC is the more conventional way to go because it is easier for most converters to install. DC components are more plentiful too.


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