# Suzuki Sidekick - What to keep what to remove?



## green caveman (Oct 2, 2009)

I have a 1994 Suzuki Sidekick donor. The ICE runs, but knocks and has bottom end problems. Someone has offered to pull the engine and pay me (a little) money. This, I feel is a great deal. Now all we have to do is decide what he can pull, and what we need. 

I'm no auto mechanic so I'd like to make sure he gets as much as he can, but still leaves whatever I may need. Here's what he wants



Guy Who Wants the Engine said:


> This is what I need the engine complete with all of the hoses,
> pulleys intact, fan, starter, alternator, coil, air cleaner,
> exhaust manifold, head pipe, engine room wiring harness, under
> dash wiring harness, ECM, and speedometer.


As I understand it (from him) the speedo hooks to the engine and the ECU so it's probably easier to use a GPS.

Is there anything in the list that looks as though I might need it? (Under dash wiring harness?). 

If he's willing to remove it, he can also have the exhaust, gas tank (and 1/2 tank of gas!) and radiator. Are there any juicy morsel that he might have missed that I can tempt him with to make sure he removes everything? (Fuel pumps, filters, etc. etc.).

Thanks,


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

I reckon he can have everything that has had fuel in it.

You may want to keep the flywheel and clutch to build your coupler from if you want to use a clutch (assuming it is a manual box). Even if you don't want the clutch in your conversion then you will need the magic number.

The magic number if the distance from the face of the flywheel to the back face of the engine block. This will help you mount the motor and coupler in the right place relative to the transmission shaft.

If you are going clutchless then try and get the clutch centre plate off him on the basis that he will change it anyway. the splined centre will go into making your solid coupler to the motor.

Check out what electrical ECUs he is wanting to tak to make sure that it doesn't stop an aspect of your car from working. Also with regards to losing the speedo, chech that you are going to be legal without a fixed odometer. In the UK it is a legal requirement that the car shows a permenant and unalterable display of the miles covered by the car from new. If you just use your Satnav then you could rest the mileage of the car any time you wanted.

Also if he takes the under dash wiring loom, you may then need to do a lot of work to get the electrics, switches, lighting, heating, indicators and so on, working again.


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## green caveman (Oct 2, 2009)

Woody,

Good advice on the clutch - I don't think that he wants it, but I'll make sure that I keep it. I've found out that he's willing to rebuild the engine so that he can put it into a Samurai - popular thing to do because the Sidekick engine is quite a lot more powerful.



Woodsmith said:


> Check out what electrical ECUs he is wanting to take to make sure that it doesn't stop an aspect of your car from working.


Does the braking system need the ECU? (antilock?). Am I wrong in thinking that it's easier to work around the systems after removing the ECU than trying to fake out the ECU? That's about the only thing I can think of that might be affected. I can't imagine that lights, indicators, etc. go through that - at least not in a 1994 car.



Woodsmith said:


> Also with regards to losing the speedo, chech that you are going to be legal without a fixed odometer. In the UK it is a legal requirement that the car shows a permanent and unalterable display of the miles covered by the car from new. If you just use your Satnav then you could rest the mileage of the car any time you wanted.


Well, if you must pass an MOT, then you can reasonably expect that someone might notice something like that.

I don't think that any such requirement exists here in New Mexico. You do have to have a light over the number plate, but don't need an odometer.



Woodsmith said:


> Also if he takes the under dash wiring loom, you may then need to do a lot of work to get the electrics, switches, lighting, heating, indicators and so on, working again.


Good point. I'll have to see what's there. If I'm lucky it'll be two harnesses. One for the engine related components, speedo, oil gauge, etc. and one for the radio, lights, etc. Couldn't be that lucky could I?


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## kittydog42 (Sep 18, 2007)

The speedometer is connected to the transmission by a cable on that vehicle, so it is not part of the engine. You definitely want to keep the flywheel, clutch, and motor mounts, but nothing else off of the engine is necessary to keep.

If you don't plan to add power steering, manual steering boxes were available for the Sidekick/Tracker, and can be found used pretty easily. If you do decide to convert the steering box, you will also need the shaft that goes into the steering box since the manual and power shafts were different lengths. 

Aftermarket coil springs are available for that vehicle as well that will help with battery weight. Check http://www.rocky-road.com/sidekick.html if that is something that you will need.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

green caveman said:


> Woody,
> 
> Good advice on the clutch - I don't think that he wants it, but I'll make sure that I keep it. I've found out that he's willing to rebuild the engine so that he can put it into a Samurai - popular thing to do because the Sidekick engine is quite a lot more powerful.


Do think about the flywheel too if you want to keep the clutch operational.



green caveman said:


> Does the braking system need the ECU? (antilock?). Am I wrong in thinking that it's easier to work around the systems after removing the ECU than trying to fake out the ECU? That's about the only thing I can think of that might be affected. I can't imagine that lights, indicators, etc. go through that - at least not in a 1994 car.


My 1991 Toyota MR2 has ECUs and 'amplifiers' everywhere making the wiring diagram a minefield of 'black boxes'.
If you can get a manual for the car then it is worth seeing what does what and where it is.


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## vpoppv (Jul 27, 2009)

I'd keep the throttle body so you could use it as your potbox: I love the fact that I'm still using my throttle body to "feed the motor" (electrons instead of gasoline)....


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## tj4fa (May 25, 2008)

Here's a link to a pdf manual for a 1986-1996 Suzuki Sidekick Haynes manual. I downloaded the "free user" one to my computer and it was ok.

http://rs77.rapidshare.com/files/51604395/zukboyshaynes.zip


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

vpoppv said:


> I'd keep the throttle body so you could use it as your potbox: I love the fact that I'm still using my throttle body to "feed the motor" (electrons instead of gasoline)....


 +1
That is what I have done too. The throttle body pot on mine is 6k so close enough to the usually requierd 5K pot and it is robust and can be left in approximate position to retain the standard cable control.


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## tj4fa (May 25, 2008)

Woodsmith said:


> +1
> That is what I have done too. The throttle body pot on mine is 6k so close enough to the usually requierd 5K pot and it is robust and can be left in approximate position to retain the standard cable control.


Hmmm... so you can limit the throw of the existing pot-box against a hard stop and set it using an ohmmeter for max 5K output? 

I wouldn't think you would want to send more to the controller than what it is set to take.


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## kittydog42 (Sep 18, 2007)

The throttle body probably does not go all the way down to zero with the pedal lifted. That has been my experience with every one I have tested and worked with. This can work with a controller with a throttle response programmable by software, but will not likely work with a controller such as the Curtis 1221/1231 and Logisystems line, that have a function known as 'High Pedal Disable' and would view that 400-1000 ohm zero-state signal as starting with the pedal down. 

If there is a possibility of using it with an incompatible controller, you would have to adjust the signal as low as it could go (the throttle body pots usually can be adjusted to some degree) and then rig up a system of relays to interrupt the signal until the vehicle was moving.


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## green caveman (Oct 2, 2009)

tj4fa said:


> Hmmm... so you can limit the throw of the existing pot-box against a hard stop and set it using an ohmmeter for max 5K output?


Since it's resistance 0-6K vs 0-5K shouldn't make a difference. 

If you want to keep meddling hands away from you project, you might try a sign with:


*Danger 50,000 OHMS!*

​


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## vpoppv (Jul 27, 2009)

kittydog42 said:


> The throttle body probably does not go all the way down to zero with the pedal lifted. That has been my experience with every one I have tested and worked with. This can work with a controller with a throttle response programmable by software, but will not likely work with a controller such as the Curtis 1221/1231 and Logisystems line, that have a function known as 'High Pedal Disable' and would view that 400-1000 ohm zero-state signal as starting with the pedal down.
> 
> If there is a possibility of using it with an incompatible controller, you would have to adjust the signal as low as it could go (the throttle body pots usually can be adjusted to some degree) and then rig up a system of relays to interrupt the signal until the vehicle was moving.


I can't speak for "most" throttle bodies, but I would imagine a Suzuki Sidekick would have the same one as a Geo Metro, in which case it should work; well, I DID have to adjust it from the stock setting (not surprisingly) as it was turning on the motor slightly as soon as the controller turned on. Now that it has been adjusted, it works great! BTW, I am using a Curtis 1209B.


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## kittydog42 (Sep 18, 2007)

vpoppv said:


> I can't speak for "most" throttle bodies, but I would imagine a Suzuki Sidekick would have the same one as a Geo Metro, in which case it should work; well, I DID have to adjust it from the stock setting (not surprisingly) as it was turning on the motor slightly as soon as the controller turned on. Now that it has been adjusted, it works great! BTW, I am using a Curtis 1209B.


It probably is very similar to a Geo Metro. It sounds like it possibly can be adjusted enough to work.


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## dtbaker (Jan 5, 2008)

I would KEEP the under-dash wiring, ECU, speedo, clutch and flywheel. Most of the engine wiring can be undone at connectors and then the big fat sensor bundle can jest be chopped.

ohh, and I dunno about using the throttle body; I would use a standard PB-6 just because they are tuned to 0-5k to match the controllers, and have a microswitch to be sure OFF is OFF.


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## green caveman (Oct 2, 2009)

dtbaker said:


> I would KEEP [...] ECU


Why the ECU? What do I loose if I send it with the engine?

The rest, I think you're right although I'm still confused by how we're going to split up the engine wiring. I don't know how clear the split is between the "engine" wiring and functions I'll still need (lights, wipers, etc.)

I want to make sure the purchaser takes as much as possible. This is partly altruism and partly selfishness. I'm happy for him to have anything I don't need to make his life easier, but that's the same as saying I'm pleased to have him remove anything I don't need which makes my life easier.

I think that a PB-6 is simpler, but not as cool. Given the extent of my ignorance, I think I'd do better going for the simplest possible solution.


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## dtbaker (Jan 5, 2008)

green caveman said:


> Why the ECU? What do I loose if I send it with the engine?


thats the thing... I don't know how much in managed in there like the ABS, sensors, airbags, how much is in the relays, etc. I left mine in, and don't have problems. 





green caveman said:


> The rest, I think you're right although I'm still confused by how we're going to split up the engine wiring.


As I went round the engine disconnecting wires... I found maybe a dozen stubs that went off on their own to like the ignition coil and things where I could just undo the connectors... and then was left with a pretty fat 'umbilical' chunk of harness that went to all the on-engine stuff. I didn't even try to figure out what it all went to as it was all on the engine, I just chopped it, and taped up the ends so they wouldn't short. It was the easiest and quickest..... I have a gallery full of pix if you wanna see if yours is similar. This phase of de-ICE is around
http://www.envirokarma.org/ev/gallery/080515_discon11.harness.htm


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## vpoppv (Jul 27, 2009)

green caveman said:


> Why the ECU? What do I loose if I send it with the engine?
> 
> The rest, I think you're right although I'm still confused by how we're going to split up the engine wiring. I don't know how clear the split is between the "engine" wiring and functions I'll still need (lights, wipers, etc.)
> 
> ...


I still have my ECU, not too sure if I HAVE to, but at some point I'd like to incorporate the coolant temp sensor and I think I'll need it then. 
As far as going with a PB-6, it's a popular choice, so I am sure it'll work great, but the reason I used the TPS was that it WAS a hole lot simpler: no need to touch any of the throttle cable! I pulled everything out and just put the throttle body aside. When everything was back in, I just bolted down the throttle body to my "control board" and away we go! I never undid any of the throttle cable or anything. I'm also inherently lazy and I figure if a potbox is already on my car, then why would I take it out and put in another one?


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## green caveman (Oct 2, 2009)

vpoppv said:


> I still have my ECU, not too sure if I HAVE to...


The problem is that without the ECU the engine is useless to the guy and so I don't think he'll want it. I'd like him to have a working engine, partly because he'll then help pull it for me, but partly because I'd rather see it reused than scrapped. The dichotomy of reuse rather than trashing beats out the desire to get one more ICE off the road (didn't say it made sense, but there you go).

It's a '94. No airbags, no ABS... I can't think that the brakes go through the ECU - would seem to be a bad thing to have your brakes fail if the computer goes out. Steering? No because a manual box can be installed. The turn-signals?? But that's fixable even if it is the case.

Could the brake lights, backup lights, 4WD indicators, etc. all go through the ECU? I'm trying to read the spaghetti wiring diagrams in the Haynes manual, but it's not obvious.

Has anyone thrown out the ECU and managed to complete the conversion? Major problems, or no problems?

Thanks, sorry if I'm sounding short, or overstaying my welcome, I appreciate the great help from these forums but these drawings are driving me crazy.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

Here's a solution if your car is still 'live'.

Put the battery on and power up the electrics.
Disconnect the ECU and engine loom and then see what error lights come on.
Try all the controls that you are going to keep and see how many work.
Anything that fails this test you can look up in the car's manual and see if you can find out if it is ECU related or just a wire in the loom.
You can then resolve any of these minor issues and let him have the ECU and loom.


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## tj4fa (May 25, 2008)

green caveman said:


> Has anyone thrown out the ECU and managed to complete the conversion? Major problems, or no problems?


I pulled the ECU and harness out of my '91 Ranger.

My brake light and Rear Anti-lock Brake System instrument lights now stay on all the time and gauges like fuel, temp, "peg" out when the ignition is on (probably still receiving 5V signal that would be from ECU).

I'm lucky my speedometer is cable-driven not electronic. I'm not sure if my reverse light when through the ECU because it didn't have that harness segment in it (need to get that harness one day - keep forgetting).

For the approx 2 lbs weight I might have saved, I would leave it in next time I do an EV and surgically remove wiring not needed after everything works on the conversion a bit at a time, if at all.


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## kittydog42 (Sep 18, 2007)

The ECU in a 1994 Sidekick isn't going to do anything that you are still going to need. I wouldn't worry about keeping it. Also, the guy taking the engine probably isn't going to need it either, so you may actually be arguing over who doesn't want it!

Again, the speedometer is cable-operated, so it will still work without the ECU.


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## green caveman (Oct 2, 2009)

A little feedback. This is what I hear, may or may not be accurate...

The engines from Sidekicks (aka Geo, Chevy Tracker) are sought after by the owners of Suzuki Samurais since they allow an upgrade from the Samurai 1.3 engine to the 1.6 of the Sidekick and add considerably more power.

The 8V Sidekick engine (pre 1995 and some post 1995?) are an easy exchange into the Samurai. This does not need the ECU from the Sidekick, or the wiring harness, etc. etc.

The 16V Sidekick engine is a little more powerful but much more difficult to transfer into the Samurai. I think that it DOES need a Sidekick ECU and so the wiring harness. 

Since I have an 8V, the whole discussion of the ECU is irrelevant - the guy just does not need it or the wiring harness.

Anyway, if anyone else is looking at a Sidekick/Tracker as a donor, you might want to take some interest in the ICE as it may be a fairly valuable item and worth factoring into the price of the donor.


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## green caveman (Oct 2, 2009)

Prodding an old thread...

My apologies for displaying my complete ignorance, I really did have no interest in cars until I realized we could run it with something other than an ICE.

We pulled the engine. The transmission dropped a couple of inches. Should we have measured the position of the bell housing before we got the engine out or is the position of the bell housing not of critical importance?

On the plus side, the cardboard mockup of the 11" motor seems to clear the front differential (we have to double check, but so far it looks good). We have found someone interested in measuring and building the adapter plate at a reasonable price.


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## dtbaker (Jan 5, 2008)

you probably want to design motor mounts to bring the tranny up to its original alignment for the life of the CV joints.... and I may have missed earlier info, but an 11" motor ounds like serious overkill/oversize/overweight.


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## green caveman (Oct 2, 2009)

dtbaker said:


> you probably want to design motor mounts to bring the tranny up to its original alignment for the life of the CV joints....


Any feel for how close? I probably need to chase down a Tracker/Sidekick with an engine in it to figure this out.



dtbaker said:


> and I may have missed earlier info, but an 11" motor sounds like serious overkill/oversize/overweight.


I don't know about _serious _but I'm pretty sure it's overkill. I think that sizing a motor and then finding a motor that size is quite a challenge - at least if you're price constrained to forklift motors. I'd rather go a little larger, even if it is a little heavier, than undersize.

There's Tracker in the EV album with a 12" motor after the small motor bit the dust.


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## dtbaker (Jan 5, 2008)

Probably doesn't have to be super close... what I did when designing motor mount was install motor, and then laid a level on top... adjusting until motor was level with the tranny mounts still in place to find the right height for motor end mount.


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