# [EVDL] Custom Gauges



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Hi All,

I've been thinking about instrumentation for my Ghia.

I think I need to know, at a glance:
- Motor Amps (to avoid sustained high amps at low rmp)
- Motor RPM (to avoid over-reving)
- Pack Amps (to avoid frying the batts and to calculate efficiency)
- Pack Voltage (to have an rough idea of my SOC, sag, etc)

Also of interest, but not necessarily while driving:
- Individual battery voltage. (This really only needs to be relative
to the other batteries: to identify out-of-balance / not charged /
overcharged. A series of LEDs is envisioned.)
- SOC via Link-10, or similar integrating computer.
[A paktrakr could handle both of these functions]


Am I missing anything major here? Is this overkill, too much info?

What are people using to display information? Can you send me some
links to your dashboard pics?


Assuming that the above is what I'm going with, I started looking at
my options...

One option is the EVision: but at >800$, while its a great product
with lots of added value, its out of my budget -- and it wouldn't
offer motor amps and motor RPM.

The link-10 or paktrakr by itself also wont give me motor amps or rpm,
and only shows one item at a time.

Another option is a series of analog gauges such a those offered by
electro-auto. But I'm worried my dash is going to start looking like
an aircraft cockpit; I don't want to scare the non-ev'rs away with
perceived complexity!

The individual gauges will run me:
62$ - Motor Amps (electroauto/westach)
63$ - Motor RPM (equus)
62$ - Pack Amps (electroauto/westach)
62$ - Pack Voltage (electroauto/westach)
For a total of 249$, plus a hall-effect sensor for RPM.

So I've enquired with WesTach regarding making a combo gauge, something like:
http://www.westach.com/gauge_images/3AQ3.gif

I asked for a quote on the following:
Size: 3-1/8"
Type: Quad indication with light kit.
Left: Ammeter, 0-500ADC, 50mv f/s, (500A on top of scale); similar to
your 2C6-30
Top: Tachometer, 0-5000RPM, pulse signal from hall effect sensor
Right: Ammeter (Same as left. The 500A remains at top of scale, so the
movement is inverted, CCW).
Bottom: Voltmeter, 130VDC-200VDC (volts scale, not state-of-charge)
(200VDC on right side of scale).

They can punch this out for ~360$, plus a 100$ setup fee. The westach
hall-effect sensor for the tach is 75$, a few bucks more than the
zolox sensor from evsource (45$); I'll try to find out what the signal
for the westach tach must be, maybe the zolox can be used, or another.

If this setup makes any sense, would anyone else be interested? The
volt-scale could be dropped to 100-200VDC to accommodate those with
120V packs. Maybe with a few more orders in the pipe, WesTach would
drop the price a bit too...

Cheers,

-Nick Drouin
Montreal, QC
evalbum.com/1890

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Hello Nicolas,

You never will have enough gages. Take a look at this and click the images 
until you get to my dashboard.

http://go-ev.net/pics/001.html

This EV used to be a hybrid using a Buick 254 engine, that help me to get 
over the mountains in Montana, so I transfer many of Stewart gages to 
monitor the EV system which is now only use for in town driving.

As shown, it has a custom GE battery and volt meter that is design for my 
180 V battery pack.

It also has a motor amp meter, a motor rpm tack, Link-10, Zilla water cool 
temperature, heater water temperature, motor temperature, controller heat 
sink temperature, transmission temperature, transmission oil temperature, 
vacuum indicator at the pump before the canister can, transmission vacuum 
modulator indicator, transmission pump oil pressure, DC-DC converter 14.5 to 
29 to 58 volts and ampere indicator.

This unit also has a onboard alternator-inverter unit that provides up to 
100 amps at 14.5 volts and 7Kw at 110 vdc that is inverted to 6Kw at 6Kw at 
120 vac 60hz. This also has three 14.5 volt and amp meters that are at the 
power unit which indicates charging of a 12 volt deep cycle battery and 
indicates load to the inverter and from the alternator to the accessories.

The 120 VAC inverter is used to run three heater units, which is two under 
dash cab heaters (mounted way back on the firewall) and one water heater 
that uses the existing heater core. I use a standard diesel truck 1000 watt 
120 volt engine heater which is a stainless tube that is about 18 inches 
long. It uses a standard brass 120 volt .5 amp heating pump and Honeywell 
sensors and indicators.

There is also circuit indicators, that indicates the 12 volt controller 
indication, the main contactor on-off indicators, two safety contactors 
on-off indicators, Zilla water pump indicators, two main motor normal run 
and warning indicators, a ignition and start up rocker switch indicator plus 
a back up set.

There is also main motor running indicator and controller amin motor running 
indicator.

In the rear compartments, there is the charger indicators which are switch 
board mounting types that indicate the AC volts and ampere input, DC volts 
and ampere output, battery box exhaust fan control and indicator (must be 
turn on first or the battery charger cannot come on which is control by a 
pressure-vacuum control unit).

Main AC power plug indicator which indicates the plug has made contact.

Leave plenty of room for adding or removing indicators as required. Behind 
the dash unit, which can hinge down, there are industrial Square D terminal 
blocks that can be of any size that is mounted on a track on stand offs on 
the fire wall.

In industrial type of wiring, you do not connect from one component directly 
to the next one. All the components terminate to the terminal strips and 
buss lines run from one terminal strip to another. This way, you can pull 
off any indicators off any point, or in trouble shooting, you can test the 
circuits at the terminal blocks.

You can easily remove and add new components without a major re-wiring of 
the EV. Just cross connect the circuits at these terminal strips.

In the initial installing of circuits in a EV, install plenty of extra wires 
terminating to spare terminal blocks. In this way when I am now install 
three more DC-DC converters and additional main battery accessory circuits, 
these wires are already in place.

Roland


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "nicolas drouin" <[email protected]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, September 02, 2008 12:37 PM
Subject: [EVDL] Custom Gauges


> Hi All,
>
> I've been thinking about instrumentation for my Ghia.
>
> I think I need to know, at a glance:
> - Motor Amps (to avoid sustained high amps at low rmp)
> - Motor RPM (to avoid over-reving)
> - Pack Amps (to avoid frying the batts and to calculate efficiency)
> - Pack Voltage (to have an rough idea of my SOC, sag, etc)
>
> Also of interest, but not necessarily while driving:
> - Individual battery voltage. (This really only needs to be relative
> to the other batteries: to identify out-of-balance / not charged /
> overcharged. A series of LEDs is envisioned.)
> - SOC via Link-10, or similar integrating computer.
> [A paktrakr could handle both of these functions]
>
>
> Am I missing anything major here? Is this overkill, too much info?
>
> What are people using to display information? Can you send me some
> links to your dashboard pics?
>
>
> Assuming that the above is what I'm going with, I started looking at
> my options...
>
> One option is the EVision: but at >800$, while its a great product
> with lots of added value, its out of my budget -- and it wouldn't
> offer motor amps and motor RPM.
>
> The link-10 or paktrakr by itself also wont give me motor amps or rpm,
> and only shows one item at a time.
>
> Another option is a series of analog gauges such a those offered by
> electro-auto. But I'm worried my dash is going to start looking like
> an aircraft cockpit; I don't want to scare the non-ev'rs away with
> perceived complexity!
>
> The individual gauges will run me:
> 62$ - Motor Amps (electroauto/westach)
> 63$ - Motor RPM (equus)
> 62$ - Pack Amps (electroauto/westach)
> 62$ - Pack Voltage (electroauto/westach)
> For a total of 249$, plus a hall-effect sensor for RPM.
>
> So I've enquired with WesTach regarding making a combo gauge, something 
> like:
> http://www.westach.com/gauge_images/3AQ3.gif
>
> I asked for a quote on the following:
> Size: 3-1/8"
> Type: Quad indication with light kit.
> Left: Ammeter, 0-500ADC, 50mv f/s, (500A on top of scale); similar to
> your 2C6-30
> Top: Tachometer, 0-5000RPM, pulse signal from hall effect sensor
> Right: Ammeter (Same as left. The 500A remains at top of scale, so the
> movement is inverted, CCW).
> Bottom: Voltmeter, 130VDC-200VDC (volts scale, not state-of-charge)
> (200VDC on right side of scale).
>
> They can punch this out for ~360$, plus a 100$ setup fee. The westach
> hall-effect sensor for the tach is 75$, a few bucks more than the
> zolox sensor from evsource (45$); I'll try to find out what the signal
> for the westach tach must be, maybe the zolox can be used, or another.
>
> If this setup makes any sense, would anyone else be interested? The
> volt-scale could be dropped to 100-200VDC to accommodate those with
> 120V packs. Maybe with a few more orders in the pipe, WesTach would
> drop the price a bit too...
>
> Cheers,
>
> -Nick Drouin
> Montreal, QC
> evalbum.com/1890
>
> _______________________________________________
> General EVDL support: http://evdl.org/help/
> Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
> Archives: http://evdl.org/archive/
> Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>
> 

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

I don't know what people think of the Cycle Analysis:
http://www.ebikes.ca/store/#ElectricalAcc

You might have to fool it with the shunt to get a divide by 10 for the amps,
but might be worth a look. 

I'm thinking about it for my BugE project (all but done). I don't care much
for the display but the functions seem to be there. 

Comments welcome...

Greg
-- 
View this message in context: http://www.nabble.com/Custom-Gauges-tp19276969p19280823.html
Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

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Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
Archives: http://evdl.org/archive/
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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> nicolas drouin wrote:
> 
> > Hi All,
> >
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

If you want universal battery instrument, EVision will
display all you need and perhaps more. You might not need
any more gauges. However, being just a sophisticated
"fuel gauge" (battery and overall vehicle energy measurement
instrument), it won't display motor
amps or motor RPM, just like any stock fuel gauge that has
nothing to do with engine RPM - that's what a tach is for.

If you care about driving efficiency, there is direct readout
in Wh/mile in real time as you drive.

In light with reminder of commercial advertising rules I, as 
manufacturer, should not personally describe advantages of
EVision - I'll let others comment on this and also I wonder
myself what people think - if the gadget worth its cost.

--
Victor

'91 ACRX - something different
'01 in-AUDI-ble - handsome car with 0.4MW AC drive (work in progress).




> gregj888 wrote:
> > I don't know what people think of the Cycle Analysis:
> > http://www.ebikes.ca/store/#ElectricalAcc
> >
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

You can get by with just a battery voltmeter. After a while, you learn to 
judge current by the sag. 

However, I think a battery voltmeter and battery ammeter make for pretty 
good minimal instrumentation. Add some kind of kWh meter, such as an E-
Meter or a Brusa counter, and you have about all you really need for most 
daily driver commuter EVs. If you use some kind of advanced batteries you 
might want to monitor battery temperature. If you're a street racer or lead 
foot with a very high performance EV, you might want to watch motor current 
and motor temperature too.

To me, having too many meters to watch is distracting. I can't really 
process all those data while I'm driving. But I realize some other folks 
like having as much information as possible.

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Hi Greg,

I use the cycle analyst every day on my emax.
Very very useful piece of equipment with many features (such as throttle
limiting at low battery).
The shunt I use for my setup is ratedd to 200A, but he unit can be
programmed to work with _any_ shunt.
One point, shunts tend to have a thermoelectric voltage always present to a
varying degree.
On my setup, the cycle analyst 0 value is out by exactly 1A. (so AH reading
is AH + hrs since last reset).
Reseting the AH counter is very simple, and I do it as I start up after
every charge.
Reseting the 0 point (or changing any other settings) requires disconnecting
the cycle analyst from the pack, so make sure you put a switch on its power
supply line (I forgot to).

In the past I have also used a wattsup meter, and a paktrakr.

If you are using lithium, and your BMS of choice doesn't do continuous
balancing (ie only balances when under charge), and are using cells smaller
than 90AH, don't permanently connect a paktrakr to your pack. It will pull
your pack out of balance.
That being said it is still a very useful piece of equipment.

For my car converison I will be using a xantrek link 10 (already own it).
Also a very useful piece of equipment (one feature is automatic AH count
reset once AH measured falls below a set value, and charge current falls
below some value).

Matt

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf
Of gregj888
Sent: Wednesday, 3 September 2008 8:21 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Custom Gauges


I don't know what people think of the Cycle Analysis:
http://www.ebikes.ca/store/#ElectricalAcc

You might have to fool it with the shunt to get a divide by 10 for the amps,
but might be worth a look. 

I'm thinking about it for my BugE project (all but done). I don't care much
for the display but the functions seem to be there. 

Comments welcome...

Greg
--
View this message in context:
http://www.nabble.com/Custom-Gauges-tp19276969p19280823.html
Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at
Nabble.com.

_______________________________________________
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http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
Archives: http://evdl.org/archive/
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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Matt,

Thank you, great info...

Greg


-- 
View this message in context: http://www.nabble.com/Custom-Gauges-tp19276969p19290003.html
Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> nicolas drouin wrote:
> 
> > Trouble with the EVision or Link-10 is: I'm going with individual
> > chargers, so there will be no charge flow over the battery shunt while
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

It isn't quite that bad. If using multiple chargers on a pack with an E-Meter, it is fairly straightforward to keep the Ah counter meaningful. All that is needed is that the negative connection of the charger that is on the most-negative module in the string be made on the load side of the E-meter shunt (i..e. the charger connects to the side of the shunt that is opposite the battery).

What this does is allow the E-Meter to see the current (and Ah) that that charger returns to the most negative battery, as well as all current removed from the pack, of course. In theory, all of the modules are the same, in practice, they will at least be similar, so the Ah returned to the most negative battery will be approximately the same as each of the other batteries receive from their chargers and should be somewhat greater than the Ah removed from each module during discharge.

The pain of using multiple chargers with the E-Meter is that you will need to choose the 'fully charged' parameters carefully to ensure that the E-Meter resets on each charge. Since the chargers will not all be doing the same thing at the same time, you can't rely on the pack voltage of N modules to behave as N x the behaviour of one of the chargers, and will need to choose a 'fully charged' voltage that is somewhat lower than would be used if a single charger were charging all modules simultaneously.

Cheers,

Roger.

(Sorry for the formatting; I'm forced to use a webmail interface at the moment)

________________________________________
From: [email protected] [[email protected]] On Behalf Of Doug Weathers [[email protected]]
Sent: September 3, 2008 6:26 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Custom Gauges



> nicolas drouin wrote:
> 
> > Trouble with the EVision or Link-10 is: I'm going with individual
> > chargers, so there will be no charge flow over the battery shunt while
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> nicolas drouin wrote:
> > Trouble with the EVision or Link-10 is: I'm going with individual
> > chargers, so there will be no charge flow over the battery shunt while
> > I'm charging.
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Hi Roger,

Just get this straight, some ascii 'art':

_____Link10___
| |
| |
| |
_______-Bat12+__|__50mv Shunt__|______-Bat 11+__
| | | |
| | | |
| | | |
|_______Charger12_________| |_Ch11_|

OR:

_____Link10___
| |
| |
| |
_____|__50mv_shunt__|___-Bat 12+______-Bat 11+
| | | |
| | | |
| | | |
|_______Charger12_________| |_Ch11_|

Or something else?

-Nick


On 9/3/08, Roger Stockton <[email protected]> wrote:
> It isn't quite that bad. If using multiple chargers on a pack with an
E-Meter, it is fairly straightforward to keep the Ah counter
meaningful. All that is needed is that the negative connection of the
charger that is on the most-negative module in the string be made on the
load side of the E-meter shunt (i..e. the charger connects to the side of
the shunt that is opposite the battery).
>
> What this does is allow the E-Meter to see the current (and Ah) that that
charger returns to the most negative battery, as well as all current removed
from the pack, of course. In theory, all of the modules are the same, in
practice, they will at least be similar, so the Ah returned to the most
negative battery will be approximately the same as each of the other
batteries receive from their chargers and should be somewhat greater than
the Ah removed from each module during discharge.
>
> The pain of using multiple chargers with the E-Meter is that you will need
to choose the 'fully charged' parameters carefully to ensure that the
E-Meter resets on each charge. Since the chargers will not all be doing the
same thing at the same time, you can't rely on the pack voltage of N modules
to behave as N x the behaviour of one of the chargers, and will need to
choose a 'fully charged' voltage that is somewhat lower than would be used
if a single charger were charging all modules simultaneously.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Roger.
>
> (Sorry for the formatting; I'm forced to use a webmail interface at the
moment)
>
> ________________________________________
> From: [email protected] [[email protected]] On Behalf Of
Doug Weathers [[email protected]]
> Sent: September 3, 2008 6:26 PM
> To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Custom Gauges
>
>


> nicolas drouin wrote:
> >
> > > Trouble with the EVision or Link-10 is: I'm going with individual
> > > chargers, so there will be no charge flow over the battery shunt while
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> nicolas drouin wrote:
> > Hi Roger,
> >
> > Just get this straight, some ascii 'art':
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

I have been happy with the Trimetric Bogartengineering.com An in
line resistor allows me to read my 144v as 14.4 on the meter. I use
the amp hour function the most. It gives me a pretty good handle on
state of charge both while driving and while charging. Available on
Ebay all the time.



> nicolas drouin <[email protected]> wrote:
> > Hi All,
> >
> > I've been thinking about instrumentation for my Ghia.
> ...


----------

