# [EVDL] High ratio diff question



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

All,

Anyone aware of existence of an open rear differential for a passenger car
(or small SUV) with the ratio of about 5.5:1 or higher?
Close to 7:1 would be ideal for a project I have on paper,
but lower value could be OK too. Not sure if such tall
rations for final diffs even exist, but I know little about it.

Thanks in advance,

--
Victor
'91 ACRX - something different

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

I know you can get gears for a Ford 9" rear-end up to 6.5:1 with 39 tooth
Ring and 6 tooth Pinion from Moroso.



> -----Original Message-----
> From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On
> Behalf Of Metric Mind
> Sent: Monday, December 31, 2007 5:11 PM
> To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
> Subject: [EVDL] High ratio diff question
> 
> All,
> 
> Anyone aware of existence of an open rear differential for a passenger
> car
> (or small SUV) with the ratio of about 5.5:1 or higher?
> Close to 7:1 would be ideal for a project I have on paper,
> but lower value could be OK too. Not sure if such tall
> rations for final diffs even exist, but I know little about it.
> 
> Thanks in advance,
> 
> --
> Victor
> '91 ACRX - something different
> 
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Here is a 6.86:1 7 x 48 VGS-686-G86H
http://www.crracing.com/racing_performance/visteon_9racing.shtml

> -----Original Message-----
> From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On
> Behalf Of Mike Willmon
> Sent: Monday, December 31, 2007 6:27 PM
> To: 'Electric Vehicle Discussion List'
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] High ratio diff question
> 
> I know you can get gears for a Ford 9" rear-end up to 6.5:1 with 39 tooth
> Ring and 6 tooth Pinion from Moroso.
> 
> 
> 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On
> > Behalf Of Metric Mind
> > Sent: Monday, December 31, 2007 5:11 PM
> > To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
> > Subject: [EVDL] High ratio diff question
> >
> > All,
> >
> > Anyone aware of existence of an open rear differential for a passenger
> > car
> > (or small SUV) with the ratio of about 5.5:1 or higher?
> > Close to 7:1 would be ideal for a project I have on paper,
> > but lower value could be OK too. Not sure if such tall
> > rations for final diffs even exist, but I know little about it.
> >
> > Thanks in advance,
> >
> > --
> > Victor
> > '91 ACRX - something different
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > For subscription options, see
> > http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
> 
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Victor - 

You can try this guy. I have talked to him about making high ratio
differentials

Also write me back about MES-DEA.

Thanks
Pete


Differentials by San Francisco Differential Repair Service
maps.google.com

214 Shaw Rd # 8
S San Francisco, CA 94080
(650) 589-7703
Get directions

More information > 

SF Differential Repair Service - San Francisco, CA 94080 - Reviews ...Read 1
Review of SF Differential Repair Service in San Francisco, CA. JOHN DAVID IS
THE TOP GEAR MAN ON THE WEST COAST. fixed one of FORD MOTOR company's ...
www.insiderpages.com/b/15240018190 - Similar pages - Note this

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf
Of Metric Mind
Sent: Monday, December 31, 2007 6:11 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: [EVDL] High ratio diff question

All,

Anyone aware of existence of an open rear differential for a passenger car
(or small SUV) with the ratio of about 5.5:1 or higher?
Close to 7:1 would be ideal for a project I have on paper,
but lower value could be OK too. Not sure if such tall
rations for final diffs even exist, but I know little about it.

Thanks in advance,

--
Victor
'91 ACRX - something different

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Hello Victor,

jegs.com have ring and pinion sets for existing axle housings or you can get 
a complete bolt rear in. It is best to call there tech line at 
1-800-345-4545 where they can advise what the best set up would be for the 
vehicle you have.

The gear ratios for a standard vehicle normally run from 3.08:1 to 6.50:1.

I use a 5.57:1 axle gear ratio which allows me a top speed of 91 mph at 6000 
rpm in the a transmission gear ratio of 1.0:1. In the transmission 1st gear 
of 3.5:1 times the 5.57:1 gives me a overall ratio of 19.495:1. I can pull 
a very step hill every morning for about a half a mile with my 7000 lb EV 
with a 200 motor amp and 75 battery amp in 1st gear which has a maximum 
speed of 25 mph in 1st gear.

Here is a formula for selecting the correct overall ratio which is the 
transmission gear times the axle gear for what speed you want.


RPM X TIRE CIRCUMFERENCE
MPH = -------------------------------
OVERALL RATIO X 1056

To measure the wheel circumference, put a mark on the tire and the floor and 
rotate the tire one turn and mark the floor again. Measure between the 
floor in inches and that is the rolling circumference.

Roland






----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Metric Mind" <[email protected]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, December 31, 2007 7:10 PM
Subject: [EVDL] High ratio diff question


> All,
>
> Anyone aware of existence of an open rear differential for a passenger car
> (or small SUV) with the ratio of about 5.5:1 or higher?
> Close to 7:1 would be ideal for a project I have on paper,
> but lower value could be OK too. Not sure if such tall
> rations for final diffs even exist, but I know little about it.
>
> Thanks in advance,
>
> --
> Victor
> '91 ACRX - something different
>
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
> 

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Or call the Dutchman at Dutchman Motorsports.
http://www.dutchmanms.com/
Ask for Keith

Phone 503.257.6604
8-4, M-F, Pacific Time
7937 N.E. Alberta St.
Portland, OR 97218

With such a high ratio and any amount of respectable power they'll probably
point you to go up from stock 28 spline axles to 31 splines typical in old
larger Fords and Pickups.

What kind of car are you considering? You can also get a Ford 9" with
Independent Rear Suspension 

Mike


> -----Original Message-----
> From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On
> Behalf Of Peter Oliver
> Sent: Monday, December 31, 2007 7:00 PM
> To: 'Electric Vehicle Discussion List'
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] High ratio diff question
> 
> 
> Victor -
> 
> You can try this guy. I have talked to him about making high ratio
> differentials
> 
> Also write me back about MES-DEA.
> 
> Thanks
> Pete
> 
> 
> Differentials by San Francisco Differential Repair Service
> maps.google.com
> 
> 214 Shaw Rd # 8
> S San Francisco, CA 94080
> (650) 589-7703
> Get directions
> 
> More information >
> 
> SF Differential Repair Service - San Francisco, CA 94080 - Reviews ...Read
> 1
> Review of SF Differential Repair Service in San Francisco, CA. JOHN
> DAVID IS
> THE TOP GEAR MAN ON THE WEST COAST. fixed one of FORD MOTOR
> company's ...
> www.insiderpages.com/b/15240018190 - Similar pages - Note this
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On
> Behalf
> Of Metric Mind
> Sent: Monday, December 31, 2007 6:11 PM
> To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
> Subject: [EVDL] High ratio diff question
> 
> All,
> 
> Anyone aware of existence of an open rear differential for a passenger
> car
> (or small SUV) with the ratio of about 5.5:1 or higher?
> Close to 7:1 would be ideal for a project I have on paper,
> but lower value could be OK too. Not sure if such tall
> rations for final diffs even exist, but I know little about it.
> 
> Thanks in advance,
> 
> --
> Victor
> '91 ACRX - something different
> 
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
> 
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev

_______________________________________________
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----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

yes those ratios exist, but primarily for the ford 9 inch differential, though I know a gm 12 bolt goes at least as low 6.5 ( I have one) but when you are getting into extreme ratios building around a 9 inch is your best option

> Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2007 18:10:30 -0800
> From: [email protected]
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: [EVDL] High ratio diff question
> 
> All,
> 
> Anyone aware of existence of an open rear differential for a passenger car
> (or small SUV) with the ratio of about 5.5:1 or higher?
> Close to 7:1 would be ideal for a project I have on paper,
> but lower value could be OK too. Not sure if such tall
> rations for final diffs even exist, but I know little about it.
> 
> Thanks in advance,
> 
> --
> Victor
> '91 ACRX - something different
> 
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev

_________________________________________________________________
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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

The Ford 9 inch is definitely the standard choice for custom and race cars. Just one counterpoint: I read that the GM 12 bolt is about 3% more efficient than the Ford 9 inch -- no I have not verified this myself. Alledgedly the GM has less pinion offset than the Ford one, giving it less friction.

I looked at putting a new Ford 9 inch or GM 12 bolt in a car (the Ford 9 inch is so popular you can buy them as bolt-in replacements for Camaro rear axles), and they cost about $2500 new! Yikes! The GM 12 bolt has not been stock equipment for many years, so it'll be hard to find out of a wrecked car.

If you really want freedom of ratios, you could use an Audi or Porsche transaxle.

----- Original Message ----
From: robert harder <[email protected]>
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, December 31, 2007 10:13:18 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] High ratio diff question

yes those ratios exist, but primarily for the ford 9 inch differential,
though I know a gm 12 bolt goes at least as low 6.5 ( I have one) but
when you are getting into extreme ratios building around a 9 inch is
your best option

> Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2007 18:10:30 -0800
> From: [email protected]
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: [EVDL] High ratio diff question
> 
> Anyone aware of existence of an open rear differential for a
passenger car
> (or small SUV) with the ratio of about 5.5:1 or higher?
> Close to 7:1 would be ideal for a project I have on paper,
> but lower value could be OK too. Not sure if such tall
> rations for final diffs even exist, but I know little about it.





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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

'tis true the Ford 9" is ~3% less efficient, but the greater offset puts 3 full teeth on the pinion in contact with the ring gear as opposed to the more neutral GM pinion placement that at best gives 2 full teeth on the pinion plus maybe a portion of another. The GM is slighlty more efficient, but not anywhere near as available. I think you can get a stock type 9" with open diff and standard axles for near $1000, new. $2500 will get you a fairly well prepared race axle. The Dutchman Ford 9" axle for my Pinto was ~$3200.

Mike Willmon

----- Original Message -----
From: David Dymaxion <[email protected]>
Date: Wednesday, January 2, 2008 9:26 am
Subject: Re: [EVDL] High ratio diff question
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <[email protected]>

> The Ford 9 inch is definitely the standard choice for custom and 
> race cars. Just one counterpoint: I read that the GM 12 bolt is 
> about 3% more efficient than the Ford 9 inch -- no I have not 
> verified this myself. Alledgedly the GM has less pinion offset than 
> the Ford one, giving it less friction.
> 
> I looked at putting a new Ford 9 inch or GM 12 bolt in a car (the 
> Ford 9 inch is so popular you can buy them as bolt-in replacements 
> for Camaro rear axles), and they cost about $2500 new! Yikes! The 
> GM 12 bolt has not been stock equipment for many years, so it'll be 
> hard to find out of a wrecked car.
> 
> If you really want freedom of ratios, you could use an Audi or 
> Porsche transaxle.
> 
> ----- Original Message ----
> From: robert harder <[email protected]>
> To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <[email protected]>
> Sent: Monday, December 31, 2007 10:13:18 PM
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] High ratio diff question
> 
> yes those ratios exist, but primarily for the ford 9 inch 
> differential, though I know a gm 12 bolt goes at least as low 6.5 ( 
> I have one) but
> when you are getting into extreme ratios building around a 9 inch is
> your best option
> 
> > Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2007 18:10:30 -0800
> > From: [email protected]
> > To: [email protected]
> > Subject: [EVDL] High ratio diff question
> > 
> > Anyone aware of existence of an open rear differential for a
> passenger car
> > (or small SUV) with the ratio of about 5.5:1 or higher?
> > Close to 7:1 would be ideal for a project I have on paper,
> > but lower value could be OK too. Not sure if such tall
> > rations for final diffs even exist, but I know little about it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ____________________________________________________________________________________Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page. 
> http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs
> 
> _______________________________________________
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> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
> 

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> 
The GM 12 bolt has not
> been stock equipment for many years, so it'll be hard to find out of a
> wrecked car.
> 

I'd start by looking in trucks and vans, not cars.

--
Stay Charged!
Hump
"If you don't "believe" you'll make a difference, than you probably never will!" -- Jim Husted


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Not sure about the GM 12-bolt but the Ford 9" came stock on the "big" ford cars of the late 50's to early 80's and in pickups till about the mid- to late 80's. The narrowest ones were found in the older Ranchero's, Fairlanes and Granada's.
Here's is just one of many places to find info on where to look for donors if you don't want to buy new.

http://www.therangerstation.com/tech_library/9InchAxles.html

Mike Willmon

----- Original Message -----
From: Tim Humphrey <[email protected]>
Date: Wednesday, January 2, 2008 11:16 am
Subject: Re: [EVDL] High ratio diff question
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <[email protected]>

> 
> 
> 
> > 
> The GM 12 bolt has not
> > been stock equipment for many years, so it'll be hard to find out 
> of a
> > wrecked car.
> > 
> 
> I'd start by looking in trucks and vans, not cars.
> 
> --
> Stay Charged!
> Hump
> "If you don't "believe" you'll make a difference, than you probably 
> never will!" -- Jim Husted
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
> 

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> MIKE WILLMON <[email protected]xx> wrote:
> > Not sure about the GM 12-bolt but the Ford 9" came stock on the "big" ford
> > cars of the late 50's to early 80's and in pickups till about the mid- to
> > late 80's. The narrowest ones were found in the older Ranchero's,
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

I would say the same about the MustangII/Pinto front suspension if someone were to build up a car from scratch but wanted bullet proof front and rear end packages fully engineered and readily available. These front ends maybe not a Gold Standard, more like a staple to the kit car and budget stock racers. There's lots of kits and complete packages available. The Ford 9" however - Gold Standard 

Mike

----- Original Message -----
From: Tim Humphrey <[email protected]>
Date: Wednesday, January 2, 2008 4:48 pm
Subject: Re: [EVDL] High ratio diff question
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <[email protected]>

> 
> 
> 
> On Wed, 02 Jan 2008 11:52:14 -0900, MIKE WILLMON 


> > <[email protected]> wrote:
> > > Not sure about the GM 12-bolt but the Ford 9" came stock on the
> > "big" ford
> > > cars of the late 50's to early 80's and in pickups till about the
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Educate me a bit - is the 9" Ford rear differential just a
differential housing with gears with output shafts meant for
CV joints (for independent rear suspension) or it's a solid axle
housing assembly which does not allow independent rear suspension
implementation? Also does its 9" name really reflects its physical
size (outer diameter of housing or something)?

The project vehicle is Audi A4 with independent rear suspension,
so the diff in question must fit. Ford 9" may or may not qualify,
depends on the size. Anyone has links to photos/drawings/dimensions?

Victor



> MIKE WILLMON wrote:
> 
> > I would say the same about the MustangII/Pinto front suspension if
> > someone were to build up a car from scratch but wanted bullet proof
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Good ol' American muscle car rear end....available just about everywhere from aftermarket suppliers catering to hot rods, circle track, pro street amd funny cars every where.....

they are very stout and almost impossible to break.....

enough folks work with them that you can get them made for just about any application, in any width, with the full straight axle, or just the center pumpkin head, inboard brakes, and universal joints for an independant rear set-up...

GM had the 12 bolt and if you got lucky a lenko...
ford the 9 inch
chrysler the dana 60 

try mark currie enterprises in your browser for an idea of what can be done...

would I put one in an audi....perhaps, but there are lots of good german engineered stuff for those I imagine, that wouldn' be as complicated to engineer into the set-up...
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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Victor,
9" is the diameter of the Ring Gear.

The typical Ford 9" Rear end is a solid "live axle" housing with a
"removable" chunk, third member or differential unit. Most rear ends today
and even back then, come with integrated differential meaning that you have
to work on the gear alignment with the differential in place in the housing.
On the Ford 9" (as well as the Ford 8") you simply pull the axles out the
ends, un-bolt the differential carrier and pull it out of the axle housing.
You can then put it on the bench to align the gears.

The Ford 9" also as someone mentioned, offsets the pinion down on the ring
gear by 2 something inches. Imagine a vertical ring gear with the pinion
right at the 90 degree point (the front edge). With the helical gears
depending on the tooth counts you might get 2 full teeth to mesh at a time.
Now go to the extreme and put the still horizontal pinion at the bottom of
the ring and all the teeth along the length of the pinion will mesh with
gears on the ring at the same time. The Ford 9" doesn't exactly put it at
the bottom, but it is more "offset" than any other stock differential. 

Now you can imagine that could develop a lot of stress on a poor old pinion
housing trying to hold onto that pinion shaft. And to make it worse you
want to go to a 6.5:1 ratio. There will no doubt be lots of torque applied
to the pinion shaft. Fords solution (and everyone elses' for that matter)
is to put bigger pinion bearings and a stronger nodular iron gear case to
hold it. Ford goes even one step further. The 9" actually uses 3 pinion
bearings in the housing, and if the iron gear case can take the torque is a
much better setup and easier to adjust.

Now that I'm looking I thought some T-birds came stock with 9" IRS, but so
far, on quick search, I see only the Ford IRS built with the 8.8" axle
stock. (maybe some Ford car buff can correct me) The 8.8" is the
replacement for the 9", but it is not a removable carrier, and its not
really even a good replacement if you want to race. It may very well be
strong enough for your application. But aftermarket and race quality parts
aren't as available and the 8.8" is not as desirable to racers as the old
9".

You can see some of the aftermarket IRS that offer the Ford 9" center
section at some of these links:
http://www.dutchmanms.com/1_irsnav.html
http://www.heidts.com/heiirs.htm
http://www.cwiinc.com/9inchsuspension.htm

... or just Google "Ford 9" IRS" 

I would for sure call Kieth at Dutchman Motorsports however for an authority
on the subject. He could better help you on the applicability for your
Audi. 

If you want the absolute best tutorial on the common solid axle version of
the Ford 9" let me know and I'll post it......OK so I'll just go ahead and
post it, there's some applicable info even if you want to make it into an
IRS
http://www.kevinstang.com/Ninecase.htm

Hope this helps.

Mike


> -----Original Message-----
> From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On
> Behalf Of Metric Mind
> Sent: Wednesday, January 02, 2008 11:22 PM
> To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] High ratio diff question
> 
> Educate me a bit - is the 9" Ford rear differential just a
> differential housing with gears with output shafts meant for
> CV joints (for independent rear suspension) or it's a solid axle
> housing assembly which does not allow independent rear suspension
> implementation? Also does its 9" name really reflects its physical
> size (outer diameter of housing or something)?
> 
> The project vehicle is Audi A4 with independent rear suspension,
> so the diff in question must fit. Ford 9" may or may not qualify,
> depends on the size. Anyone has links to photos/drawings/dimensions?
> 
> Victor
> 


> > MIKE WILLMON wrote:
> >
> > > I would say the same about the MustangII/Pinto front suspension if
> > > someone were to build up a car from scratch but wanted bullet proof
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Hi Victor



> you wrote:
> > Educate me a bit - is the 9" Ford rear differential just a
> > differential housing with gears with output shafts meant for
> > CV joints (for independent rear suspension) or it's a solid axle
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

It could be you could get a Jag IRS unit to fit, but I'm not up on parts
availability for a Jag. I'm also not a Chevy guy but don't Corvettes have
pretty stout IRS. I just don't know if you can find ratios as high as you
are looking for in either of those however. As dbeard says, every body and
their brother has Ford 9" parts and customizations. And also like he said
Currie Enterprises would also be a good resource to try.
http://www.currieenterprises.com/

..here a real classy looking unit
http://www.kugelkomponents.com/products/suspension/rearsuspension.html

They also have as measurement guide here
http://www.kugelkomponents.com/products/instructions/Kugel_IRS.pdf

Lots of race engineering pages here to peruse through if you're so inclined:
http://www.roadsters.com/trans/#rearends

Mike

> -----Original Message-----
> From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On
> Behalf Of [email protected]
> Sent: Thursday, January 03, 2008 12:55 AM
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] High ratio diff question
> 
> Good ol' American muscle car rear end....available just about
> everywhere from aftermarket suppliers catering to hot rods, circle track,
> pro street amd funny cars every where.....
> 
> they are very stout and almost impossible to break.....
> 
> enough folks work with them that you can get them made for just about
> any application, in any width, with the full straight axle, or just the
center
> pumpkin head, inboard brakes, and universal joints for an independant
> rear set-up...
> 
> GM had the 12 bolt and if you got lucky a lenko...
> ford the 9 inch
> chrysler the dana 60
> 
> try mark currie enterprises in your browser for an idea of what can be
> done...
> 
> would I put one in an audi....perhaps, but there are lots of good german
> engineered stuff for those I imagine, that wouldn' be as complicated to
> engineer into the set-up...
> _____________________________________________________________
> Click to find out what your future holds.
> http://thirdpartyoffers.netzero.net/TGL2221/fc/Ioyw6i4sue99xbTcirJyHJ2w
> KmHWPNbCYAZ8t3T6tBNzBlvTUsHDmH/
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

I like RCC's IRS and it uses the Ford 9". 
http://dwayne9.addr.com/universal_suspensions.html
I like Kugel's a bit better than Heidt's but that is totally a personal 
opinion.
Race stuff is available for the 8.8" just don't try to stuff more than 
500 through it regardless.
Since this is for an Audi has the originator of this project contact 
VW/Audi to see what might be available?
I seriously doubt you'll find 7:1 available from them but they might 
have something.
You might try a supplier of gears that makes stuff for the Bonneville 
crowd. Someone like Rush Gears in PA.
BTW I've never seen higher than a 6.5:1 for a Ford 9" but maybe there is 
a 7:1 that I've never heard about.

Seriously though, why not just use the IRS from the Cobra/Lincoln. Sure 
it's an 8.8" but are you planning on putting more than 500 ft-lbs 
through it?

John Thornton





> Mike Willmon wrote:
> > Now that I'm looking I thought some T-birds came stock with 9" IRS, but so
> > far, on quick search, I see only the Ford IRS built with the 8.8" axle
> > stock. (maybe some Ford car buff can correct me) The 8.8" is the
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

the ford 9 inch is a solid axle housing not intended for use as an independent suspension setup, although there are some very narrowed versions available and if you have access to affordable machine work it would be possible to make a very narrow 9 inch with flanges that could be attached to cv type setup, due to the very popular use of the 9 inch in conversions I would not be surprised if enough searching could find one setup like that, as far as the name 9 inch refers to the diameter of the ring gear, be cautious if you go junkyarding for one ford also made an 8.8 inch that looks nearly identical but is not interchangeable and does not have the availability of ratios, a couple of good pages on identifying them, http://www.maliburacing.com/ford_9_inch/ford_nine_inch.htm
http://www.kevinstang.com/Ninecase.htm

> 
> Educate me a bit - is the 9" Ford rear differential just a
> differential housing with gears with output shafts meant for
> CV joints (for independent rear suspension) or it's a solid axle
> housing assembly which does not allow independent rear suspension
> implementation? Also does its 9" name really reflects its physical
> size (outer diameter of housing or something)?
> 
> The project vehicle is Audi A4 with independent rear suspension,
> so the diff in question must fit. Ford 9" may or may not qualify,
> depends on the size. Anyone has links to photos/drawings/dimensions?
> 
> Victor
> 

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

[No message]


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

What about the nissan IRS, I heard they were pretty strong and they put
them in a lot more than just the z cars. Specifically, how strong is an
r200? i think wayland can answer this one.

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

I don't have the link handy, but on hybridz, the z-car conversion forum, 
there is a claim that an R200 can handle up to about 900HP. That might be 
enough for the average EV. 

There are a couple of really great FAQ style threads on the Nissan rear ends 
from R160 to R230.

And for what it's worth, I found a gearset by googling around a bit that was 
a 5.1 to 1 or something close to that. Of course it will run one $1195 for 
the luxury of it!

- Kip

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Jeff Shanab" <[email protected]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, January 04, 2008 5:24 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] High ratio diff question


> What about the nissan IRS, I heard they were pretty strong and they put
> them in a lot more than just the z cars. Specifically, how strong is an
> r200? i think wayland can answer this one.

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> John Thornton wrote:
> 
> > Race stuff is available for the 8.8" just don't try to stuff more than
> > 500 through it regardless.
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Want a real high ratio diff?
The differential for my 1911 Hupp-Yeats Model 1A chassis has a whopping 10:1
ratio-----120-tooth bevel ring gear mates directly with 12-tooth pinion on
motor shaft, direct mounted to diff. It's a big, heavy mutha...ring gear is
something like 18" diam!!!

-Myles Twete, Portland, Or.
1911 Hupp-Yeats Model 1A: http://evalbum.austinev.org/1018
Chassis diagrams: http://evalbum.austinev.org/img/1018/1018d.jpg


-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf
Of Metric Mind
Sent: Sunday, January 06, 2008 11:08 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] High ratio diff question



> John Thornton wrote:
> 
> > Race stuff is available for the 8.8" just don't try to stuff more than
> > 500 through it regardless.
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Myles Twete" <[email protected]>
To: "'Electric Vehicle Discussion List'" <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, January 08, 2008 12:18 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] High ratio diff question


> Want a real high ratio diff?
> The differential for my 1911 Hupp-Yeats Model 1A chassis has a whopping 
> 10:1
> ratio-----120-tooth bevel ring gear mates directly with 12-tooth pinion on
> motor shaft, direct mounted to diff. It's a big, heavy mutha...ring gear 
> is
> something like 18" diam!!!

> RING GEAR!? wern't those prehistoric 'lectrics mostly worm drive, or 
> chain? The HY is ready for a AC drive<g>! Got the ratio.

Bob
> -Myles Twete, Portland, Or.
> 1911 Hupp-Yeats Model 1A: http://evalbum.austinev.org/1018
> Chassis diagrams: http://evalbum.austinev.org/img/1018/1018d.jpg
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On 
> Behalf
> Of Metric Mind
> Sent: Sunday, January 06, 2008 11:08 PM
> To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] High ratio diff question
>


> > John Thornton wrote:
> >
> >> Race stuff is available for the 8.8" just don't try to stuff more than
> >> 500 through it regardless.
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

We really should try to get away from the hypoid gear. it is wasteful.
If possible turn the motor 90degress and use a crown and pinion arrangement.

I have heard that some of the stronger-higher ratio sets can eat up 20%
of your power.

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Jeff Shanab wrote:
> > We really should try to get away from the hypoid gear. it is wasteful.
> > If possible turn the motor 90degress and use a crown and pinion arrangement.
> >
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

If that would be the case, for, say, 20 kW needed to move
down the road, 4kW would be wasted on the diff and 16kW go to the
wheels. The diff would get red hot with so much waste power,
not to mention it would fail in a few weeks of such operation.

Are you sure "up to 20%" is accurate? I realize 20% may be
unique worst case and bulk of distribution may be at 98%, but
you make it sound like about 10% waste is about average for
a diff with hypoid gears. Still seems a lot.

Victor



> Jeff Shanab wrote:
> > We really should try to get away from the hypoid gear. it is wasteful.
> > If possible turn the motor 90degress and use a crown and pinion arrangement.
> >
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

92.4% of all statistics are made up on the spot.

But I agree, 10% loss seems too high. If you put even 1kw into a case it 
will get quite hot to the touch!

I felt the 4.75:1 unit on my van and it's ice cold after a 60mph cruise on 
the highway.

-Phil
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Metric Mind" <[email protected]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, January 08, 2008 7:55 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] High ratio diff question


> If that would be the case, for, say, 20 kW needed to move
> down the road, 4kW would be wasted on the diff and 16kW go to the
> wheels. The diff would get red hot with so much waste power,
> not to mention it would fail in a few weeks of such operation.
>
> Are you sure "up to 20%" is accurate? I realize 20% may be
> unique worst case and bulk of distribution may be at 98%, but
> you make it sound like about 10% waste is about average for
> a diff with hypoid gears. Still seems a lot.
>
> Victor
>


> > Jeff Shanab wrote:
> >> We really should try to get away from the hypoid gear. it is wasteful.
> >> If possible turn the motor 90degress and use a crown and pinion
> >> arrangement.
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Is the Lanchester worm drive different than normal worm drive? IS it
"globoidal" ?

http://www.zakgear.com/Condrive.html

if we look at the first and second drawing they are limited to low ratios.

If we look at the 3rd drawing, that is intending to replace the
traditional hypoid gear set.

Power is robbed in a gear set by how much surface is forced to slide on
another and the amount of force on this sliding surface. This sliding
action keeps the mesh tight and therefore quiet; which is why the auto
manufacturers used it. This set looks like it has a lot of sliding area
but without the pressure.(extreamly low pressure angle)

It seems like it would be better than a hypoid but still worse than just
turning the motor 90 degrees and using a crown and pinion like a honda FWD.

http://www.kingmotorsports.com/category.aspx?cat=33

A straight cut involute would be 2% loss and noisy as heck but a
herringbone setup would be quiet and not to much more loss. The honda
for example puts an angle in the gear as a compromise, this loads the
gear to one side quieting it down under load at the cost of some
efficiency and max strength.

One type of gear reduction not mentioned, probably because we don't have
motors that would run so high an rpm as to make it worthwhile, is the
wave gear(harmonic) reduction. These use a flex mesher or a eccentric
inner gear to walk around the inside 1 tooth offset each rotation with
reduction ratios like -50:1 to -160:1 (the negative is because it
reverses rotation.)

http://machinedesign.com/ContentItem/70515/Sometimesitpaystobeeccentric.aspx

But I would hate to have my electric motor stop and to have my wheels
lock up. This is a danger of excessively high ratios.




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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Yes, Lanchester designed what is now called a globoidal worm.
I took to one of my books and found that with the ratios tested 
(Unlisted) the efficiency was 96.7%.
It was used in cars so was tested in ratios equal to those found in cars 
because production units were tested but again I don't know what ratios 
they were.

John Thornton




> Jeff Shanab wrote:
> > Is the Lanchester worm drive different than normal worm drive? IS it
> > "globoidal" ?
> >
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

The worm drives in early electric cars (1910-1932) was pretty high. I believe on the Milburn it's on the order of 10:1, but it could be 8:1. Most electrics went to worm drive by 1915 or so, with the Detroit's worm drive known to be a Lanchester (unsure about Milburn----they had theirs made in-house).
-Old timey EV guy
-------------- Original message -------------- 
From: John Thornton <[email protected]> 

> Yes, Lanchester designed what is now called a globoidal worm. 
> I took to one of my books and found that with the ratios tested 
> (Unlisted) the efficiency was 96.7%. 
> It was used in cars so was tested in ratios equal to those found in cars 
> because production units were tested but again I don't know what ratios 
> they were. 
> 
> John Thornton 
> 
> 


> > Jeff Shanab wrote:
> > > Is the Lanchester worm drive different than normal worm drive? IS it
> > > "globoidal" ?
> > >
> ...


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