# First Build FJ 1200 Agni Twin Motors???



## Seanextra (May 23, 2011)

Hi All, I have taken the plunge but havent paid for anything YET! My needs are somthing that can do around 80-100klm on a charge and offer at least 110klm/h for most of that time, THe donor bike is being stripped down to the bare esentials but keeping the stock wiring for the lights etc.. Im thinking Dual 95R Agnis so far after research they seem to be the pick at the moment and at around $1k a piece not that bad considering the options. I intend on using LiFe as i use these batteries in RC gear now and prefer them over anything else (safe, tough) . Im guessing i will need 72Volt minimum to achieve my requirements? Im really stumped on the twin motor set up, do they run thru one Curtis controller just spliced on the output to the motors or are they paired controllers>? I havent seen a good picture yet of this twin motor install i assume they are on a coupled by a some sort of collet with a common shaft or the motors are put onto a new single shaft? I realise one will be timed reverse can anyone elaborate on these points for me so i can make sure im on the right page with this and if anyone has any builds specific to my wants or links to other builds will be much appreciated.


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## Salty9 (Jul 13, 2009)

If you haven't ordered anything yet, have you considered one of the ac motorcycle conversion kits? You could probably get electrified easier and for less than the twin agnis. The savings could go toward your battery pack.


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## Seanextra (May 23, 2011)

No i havent checked those out i was mainly leaning towards the Agni because the performance is so good, The AC units in comapritive price range seem to have about 30-40HP will this be enought to achieve 110klm/h ? Like to here from someone with similar set up or similar large bike. Thanks


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

Pity its a chain drive.
you will have slightly more hassles fitting motors transversly and especially twin Agni's. They will either stick out the sides and be very expensive crash fodder or use up a lot of battery real estate inboard in front of the swingarm pivot.
Im planning a similar evert but with a FJR1300 shaft and a long AC35 slung low and longitudinal in the belly and a belt up to the shaft.

Having said that Ive just calculated I can fit both my Motenergy ME0913R's transversly low in the belly of my R1 by facing them together so the drive ends of the shaft touch then chain up to a jack shaft and over to the main
chain and back to the wheel. The 2 AC motors together are only 320mm wide.


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

look at a layout something like this


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## Seanextra (May 23, 2011)

Motenergy ME0913R are these comparable to the Agnis in price performance ? I was considering Jack shaft option to be able to maybe use standard drive sprockets but im still a long way off from making that decision. Im really trying to find the ultimate set up for these size bikes im not really stuck to a very tight budget but im just trying to be economical as possible while building somthing that will deliver and not somthing to park in the garage and sell because its not performing. Id prefer to get it close to right or at least have the right main components first time round, ive read alot of reports of people waisting money with low quality cheap set up to only turn around and redo it all, thats what im trying to avoid along with a complicated wireing id like to keep it as clean and simple as possible. I really appreciate these comments and would like to hear from anyone that has an opinion. even a list of must have components or prefered options like controllers, so i can start ticking off my list! I want to keep a standard battery to keep the electronics system for lights hrn seperate to the main drive system so that should eleminate a DC to DC converter and keep the wiring less complex for the drive


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

the "R" is for race. check my track bike thread for details
its a modded version of the off the shelf item and will piss all over an Agni and its not even finished yet but the OTS version has very small magnets and needs a sine controller like sevcon.
seperate 12v charging is something id go for too


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## Seanextra (May 23, 2011)

Great Thread and well done on the R1 excellent work, with all your understanding and from what youve done with this Motenergy ME0913R what would you suggest as a basic start point for components given my basic requirements ie. Controllers, batts and so forth im thinking 72 Volt still but it wont hurt if it exceeds my speed requirments of course have their been any changes done to the motor design since yours, i see you paid $600 for a sample and now seem to be selling for $850 for the non "R" version. Do you have one for sale ?


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## Jozzer (Mar 29, 2009)

RIPPERTON said:


> the "R" is for race. check my track bike thread for details
> its a modded version of the off the shelf item and will piss all over an Agni and its not even finished yet but the OTS version has very small magnets and needs a sine controller like sevcon.
> seperate 12v charging is something id go for too


"Piss all over" AN agni, or a pair of Agni's? Got any dyno figures to show that?

There are some new more powerful (higher voltage and current) Agni's due out very soon, should be shipping later this summer. 
Keeping the motors so far inboard as in that sketch will seriously affect cooling (on any air cooled motor), some very clever ducting would be needed. We put the Agni's "outboard" for a good reason, crash protection won't be that hard to manage on an FJ1200 chassis.
To get the best out of the Agni's, try 84v on current motors, 120v on the motors due out later this year.
Good luck, whatever you decide!

Steve


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

I wouldnt consider DC only for a few small reasons.
AC does reverse and regen slightly better than DC.
no need for reversing contactors and regen is hard on brushes.
AC makes a better noise than DC.
take a look at Frodus VFR.
get something from this page
http://www.electricmotorsport.com/store/ems_ev_parts_motors_ac.php


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## Seanextra (May 23, 2011)

Hi Steve, Sounds interesting its pretty complex trying to sort thru all the options available and no doubt get something wrong will make the bike a lemon very easily Im still leaning towards a kit option to eliminate mismatched components even though ive been playing with Brushed and Brushless motors in RC Cars, Helicopters and Aircraft this is alot more complicated to get the cutting edge performance when so much weights involved and expence!


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## Seanextra (May 23, 2011)

I still have the AC - 20 in my Shopping Cart there ....lol !


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## frodus (Apr 12, 2008)

Hey Sean, welcome! You may also want to stop by Elmoto.net, we're pretty much ONLY motorcycles. Lots of guys doing builds there, and lots of cool stuff.

My bike:
www.evfr.net

I started with a series wound DC motor, and was pretty happy with it. During my purchasing of parts to upgrade to lithium, I found an AC15 for cheap and decided to go AC. I've since sold it and bought an AC20 because I could and because I wanted a little more torque. I've not yet rode it around, but we've ran numbers and it looks like I'll be able to do 160kph or so. I don't think the AC15 would have trouble getting to 150kph depending on gearing. The acceleration would be faster with an AC20. Go as high of a voltage as you can.110kph is going to be fairly easy to do, and you could do that with a single Agni motor without much issue. An AC15/AC18/AC20 motor would do the job just fine. I don't know performance data, but it sounds like Ripperton did well with his dual BLDC mars motor.

80-100km range is going to be a little hard, and you'll need a lot of batteries and a good size chassis, or a deep pocket to get some very dense batteries. So if range is the bigger issue, go with a single motor, and use the room for batteries. I think you'll find that most non-racing conversions have a range of 30-50 miles, depending on the size of the pack.

For a road legal conversion, like Mine or Steve (Jozzer), I think a pack of 4-6kwh would be doable, depending on the chassis. I've got room for about 5kwh, but not much more, so about 80km tops give or take, depending on speed. 

Also, don't go a cheap route and tap off the batteries at 12V just to save money on a DC-DC, you don't want to imbalance your cells. Spend money and get a DC-DC or an Aux battery. Also, get a decent BMS. I've got one from Elithion and am happy with it. Manzanita Micro does good BMS as well. Steve may have other input.


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## Seanextra (May 23, 2011)

Hi Travis, Thanks for that info, ive just been all over your blog and threads /videos great stuff and congradulations. I picked out the AC-20 just out of what i thought would be the minimum I really dont want to skimp on batteries but its sure not easy finding a good deal on somthing when you dont exactly know what you need ! I will have alot of room to play with on the FJ12 and i am thinking about the the set up as pictured by ripperton earlier using a jack shaft to get the gearing i need using Stock or at least shelf parts for the final drive. wether i end up with the Agnis or AC-20s. Im starting to lean towards the AC-20, Ive allways had a soft spot for brushless RC ! 

As your currently doing the same motor could you recomend other components i must have using this engine and LiFe Cells at least 72v possibly 144v, Controller if i dont get kit and other brand or models for other parts. I know its asking alot but i really appreciate the opinions from everyone (as im Total Noob at this) and seeing your a vetran at this and using that same motor????


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## frodus (Apr 12, 2008)

Thanks Sean.

I think the AC15/18/20 would all be good choices if you went with an AC system. Just so you aren't clear, AC20 isn't BLDC, it's a AC Induction motor, or Asynchronous motor. BLDC is Synchronous motor (has magnets). Induction motors have squirrel cage rotors in them, no magnets. The torque curve for an AC Induction motor goes further out into the RPM range than some of the series wound or permanent magnet motors I've seen. RPM also goes to 6500-7500RPM depending on voltage levels. Also, there are certain considerations that you'll need to address for dual motors (Dual controllers potentially, or putting them in series or parallel). Cooling on the Agni's is very important (as well as the AC## motors, but they have built in fans). Regen comes for free with AC, but you have to get a compatible regen controller for a PMDC motor, like a Kelly. In the end, you'll spend about as much on 2 motors and a halfway decent Regen, high current, high voltage controller than you would with just one AC setup, and you won't need to figure out how to build jackshafts and couple them together. They each have benefits. 2 agni's is about 48.5lbs. The AC20 is about 53lbs, so it's only a few lbs more, but less weight overall (potentially) because you need a drive coupler and potentially a jackshaft/bearings/bearing holders. Controllers weigh about the same for something with a comparable output power.

The Curtis 1238 is about the only motor controller that you'll want to buy for the AC## motors. Everything else that may work is way more expensive, and custom. As far as I know, they don't sell just the motor. The package deal is really the only way to go. If you get the AC18 or AC20, you get the higher voltage 1238-7501 550A controller. The AC15 uses a 1238-6501 550A controller good up to 108VDC.

So you'll want to stay around 32-36 cells in series in order to stay below the 1238-7501 limit.

Get a decent BMS, like elithion, manzanita or maybe something local where you're at (ask Steve).

Charger, must be matched to your pack, so it depends on your pack voltage.

Batteries, for budget, get some GBS or CALB prismatics, for more fun, get some Headway, lifebatt cells. If you want to go all out, get A123 20Ah cells.


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

heres another good motor layout
http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showthread.php/ebike-first-load-test-56729.html

for a cruizer or commuter I would seriously consider a shaft drive bike and an AC motor


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## frodus (Apr 12, 2008)

I would stay away from shaft drive unless you want to spend lots of time and money making a jackshaft gear reduction before it goes into the shaft drive. Lots of shaft drives are 3:1 or less, making it require a very high torque motor. I would stay away from direct driving a shaft drive motorcycle. Plus, you're locked into gear ratios for the shaft drive unless you feel like making your own.

So I'm not sure about why Ripperton recommended a shaft drive motorcycle, they're harder to come by, harder to get parts for, and you're locked into ratios.

Chain is fine for a conversion..... and it sounds like he's already got the bike. I've converted one bike, twice, and even with chain noise, I'd still stick with Chain.


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## Seanextra (May 23, 2011)

Yes im sort of keen on using the FJ12 i have and not a real fan of shafties for 2 reasons like frodus points out the ratio selection is just more complicated and limiting final drive can be made belt or at least any gearing to get it right and ive owned 2 before and didnt like them a monster Z1300 6 cylinder kawasaki and little XJ650. Whats the best online source of A123s? So far might be using the headways still bit unsure how im going to configure them i loath the idea of making packs but if i have too to save money or to make room to fit them i dont mind. 36 cells doesnt take up much room though ! Ithought id be stacking batteries everywhere but at 36 cells ill have tonnes of room.


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## frodus (Apr 12, 2008)

whoa there..... 36 may not be many in series, but you need to parallel headway's if you want to get any power. You can't discharge headway batteries at 500A, so you need to put more in parallel.

So you might have 32s5p (32 in series, 5 in parallel) like my bike for 5kwh of energy, and be able to do 10C (10 times the Ah rating of 10Ah = 100A) and get 500A out of the batteries.

I'd suggest chosing a battery voltage based on what chargers are available. I know mine is limited to 32 in series. Gotta look at controller, batteries and charger at the same time.

What kind of A123's are you wanting? Steer away from 26650's unless you're experienced in packbuilding. They're a PITA to build a large pack, and require a welder to do the job right (not a normal welder, its a tab welder). The A123 20Ah pouch cells are available, but very expensive, not that great for a first bike doing commuting, but great for a racebike. Headway batteries are a good middle-road choice. A little better than Prismatics, easier to assemble than tab-welded cells, and configurable fairly easily.


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## Seanextra (May 23, 2011)

email sent.


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## frodus (Apr 12, 2008)

don't have MSN.... email works

contact me via my website:
www.evfr.net
at the top, contact me.


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

frodus said:


> I would stay away from shaft drive unless you want to spend lots of time and money making a jackshaft gear reduction before it goes into the shaft drive. Lots of shaft drives are 3:1 or less, making it require a very high torque motor. I would stay away from direct driving a shaft drive motorcycle. Plus, you're locked into gear ratios for the shaft drive unless you feel like making your own.
> So I'm not sure about why Ripperton recommended a shaft drive motorcycle, they're harder to come by, harder to get parts for, and you're locked into ratios.
> Chain is fine for a conversion..... and it sounds like he's already got the bike. I've converted one bike, twice, and even with chain noise, I'd still stick with Chain.


OK so Sean already has the FJ chain drive but heres my shaft reasoning.
theres no "jack shaft gear reduction" up to the shaft
there are 2 plates either side of a Tbelt with the motor central, longitudinal and low down in the belly. Theres a bit more engineering involved in securing the front end of the drive shaft with a bearing but not impossible.
You arnt locked into a ratio because you can change the Tbelt pullies
for a greater reduction. You dont need to get parts for a shaft drive because they last forever, they are completely enclosed and dont need lube or replacement like a chain.
Ratios are from 2.6:1 for FJR's and up to 5:1 for MotoGuzzi's.
For your first E-vert I wouldnt bother with the complexities of shaft drive because the advantages of less noise and no chain lube are icing on the cake stuff for the industrially unchallenged.


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## frodus (Apr 12, 2008)

oh, gotcha. So you'd still need your own reduction, but that's still what i was saying some sort of reduction. Jackshaft was used incorrectly, sorry.

those FJR's look pretty slick.


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## Seanextra (May 23, 2011)

Yes i can understand your point Ripperton but for my first effort im trying to keep it as simple as possible this will certainly not be my last, main factor is i have the donor bike so its sort of what i have to deal with for now but i really can see the benifit in your set up and there is a few beemer frames which would really work well for a shaft Ebike and i know a good source for them but for now ill just do the basic set up and get my head around the basics of the E powered dramas and i might try and be a bit more imaginative next build. I have a very good friend of mine here in Queensland who is a master coach builder and has his own brand of Trikes just approved for production and the Harley engined version is really somthing else! Im trying to convince him to do a E Conversion on one but he is sort of waiting for mine to be completed and might get him to try it then. Big issue with the trike conversion most of his customers buy trikes for touring and the range is a big issue but they can handle alot of weight so there is room for cells galour!


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

OK but just dont turn the FJ into a trike 

since your an Aussie I still have 315 brand new 8Ah LifeTech cells for sale.
$30 each, make it 9k but Il understand if you want st cheaper. If you want Headways let me know, we have contacts and can get them at the cheapest rate.

http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showthread.php?t=50276&highlight=lifetech


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## Seanextra (May 23, 2011)

Here is a picture of a guys shafty set up like you want to do,Two points he made about his build which might come as a surprise, he is going to convert the belt seen here to chain and also comments that chain final drive would be better as it has less drag and i think he might be right, if you add the bearing drag gears and universal joint drag together i think tthe chain drive in good condition has less drag!












No never said I wanted a trike i just said "HE" should try a E Conversion with one! 

9k sort of trumps my budget, even though i could go higher even using Headways but that would be the whole system not just batteries. 

Im interested to know your price for under 500 cells i have a good quote for 10ah and the 15 ah Headways if your price is better and they are fresh new batteries i may be interested.


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## Seanextra (May 23, 2011)

Frodus, using direct drive motor to wheel seems like alot of load on the output bearing on the motor does the AC motor output bearing seem solid enough to take the strain from riding at 55mph on rough roads for a long time? Im just wondering the 2 benifits from the Jack shaft is ratio enableing the stock final drive sprockets and also isolating the load from the motor bearings with a decent set of heavy duty jack shaft bearings in place similar to the type seen in this photo above would really take alot lateral load off the motor shaft and bearings?


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

This is what industrially challenged looks like, no wonder he's going back to something simpler. Nice classic XS1100 though.

Your front bearing is strong enough. they are designed with big radial loads in mind.
only prob is a small one, motor is going to stick out on the right hand side.


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## Seanextra (May 23, 2011)

Its a Turbo 750 Yamaha in USA pretty rare beast i would imagine, good to hear about the bearing thanks. I aggree not the most finess mount!


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## frodus (Apr 12, 2008)

Seanextra said:


> Frodus, using direct drive motor to wheel seems like alot of load on the output bearing on the motor does the AC motor output bearing seem solid enough to take the strain from riding at 55mph on rough roads for a long time? Im just wondering the 2 benifits from the Jack shaft is ratio enableing the stock final drive sprockets and also isolating the load from the motor bearings with a decent set of heavy duty jack shaft bearings in place similar to the type seen in this photo above would really take alot lateral load off the motor shaft and bearings?


I haven't noticed an issue. Lots of people just go direct drive with a sprocket to the rear sprocket. these motors are industrial motors anyway, and they're designed to have belts and pulleys attached to them. If you are worried though, you could make something that supports the shaft. The chain tension on a motorcycle isn't huge, but there are things you can do to help support the shaft if you're worried.

check out my AC20 mounted:
http://blog.evfr.net/?p=385


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## Salty9 (Jul 13, 2009)

Travis,

Very neat mount. Lots of room for batteries.


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