# Auto trans selection, unusual situation



## Automcdonough (Sep 1, 2010)

Guys, I need some advice here as I have virtually no experience with automatics, only manuals.

I don't want to get sidetracked debating man vs auto in general, but as it applies to my particular situation I will consider all options.

My situation is a little bit unusual. Please take a quick look at this motor and attached pics:
http://www.remyinc.com/docs/HVH250R4.pdf

I picked up an engineering lab prototype off ebay which seems very similar to the HVH250. It differs in looks in that there is a hollow shaft, splined on the inside and on the outside there is a helical gear. Looks like it should plug into a planetary arrangement. I'm thinking that this may be one of the motors from Chrysler's 2 motor transmission project. Even if it doesn't end up with as much gusto, on both accounts it appears that it is intended to be filled or totally submersed in ATF. This oil is also used for cooling, I do not yet know if it's self pumping or if I need an aux pump to push ATF through it. But it is a "special needs" motor.

This is going on a RWD car (1981 bmw 633).
My original plan was to fit the motor straight to the differential, but that was before I got this thing with it's ATF needs and the available ratios are kind of low. I would prefer to maintain stock diff to keep my final drive ratio options open, typically in the range of 2.73:1 to 4.1:1. 
There are some oddballs outside of that range but if I was to do a single-speed car I would shoot for about total of 8:1. For this car running it through the manual trans that would be leaving it permanently in 2nd.

I think fitting an auto with this motor sans the torque converter may be a good option. Solenoid control is the easy part for me, lets just concentrate on mechanical here. I only need a single speed reduction, but 2 or 3 speeds would be nice. Lightweight/compact would be best, something without a bunch of clutches and extra fancy stuff. I'm thinking if it's like a planetary where the second speed locks the sun for basic 2-speed (like a cordless drill) that would be the most simple/efficient. Especially if the default from low pressure from low/no idle would be the low gear, switching to the high gear would always be at speed so no pressure issues.

If it's a FWD trans with integrated diff I can entertain the idea.. would have to be limited slip and I would offset mount it to keep the halfshafts equal length. I'm not too attached to the trunkspace and gas tank area though.. I like the idea of having the whole drive mounted to the rear subframe. Nice thing about batteries is you can balance out almost anything. It would have to be the perfect trans though, this thing looks like it's built for hybrid action so keeping RWD config leaves me the option of stacking another motor in front of it.

No matter what the choice, the input side will most likely get some custom welded part to interface the motor instead of torque converter, just knowing a good starting point is something that someone who's pulled apart several different transmissions would be better qualified to answer than me.


























Thanks for any input.. this one is gonna take some work. I should physically have it in my possession soon, 1st thing I need to figure out, aside from making sure it isn't a 75lb paperweight, is where exactly the oil goes in/out.. if it's feed lines or totally enclosed/submersed.


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## CroDriver (Jan 8, 2009)

This guys offer planetary gears:

http://www.lencoracing.com/ST1200MasterPage.html

You can stack as many of them together as you need.

What controller do you want to use for that motor?

Btw. Wanna get rid of the motor?


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## Automcdonough (Sep 1, 2010)

CroDriver said:


> This guys offer planetary gears:
> 
> http://www.lencoracing.com/ST1200MasterPage.html
> 
> ...


excellent option. 

And no I'll keep it. Aren't you already sitting on a badass motor? A few of them? 
lol..

controller is an open book, 95% chance of me putting those EE skills to use and doing a DIY setup.


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## CroDriver (Jan 8, 2009)

Automcdonough said:


> And no I'll keep it. Aren't you already sitting on a badass motor? A few of them?
> lol..


Yes but I'm always open for new goodies  

Please document your project and share your progress with us. This could be a very interesting project. Wish you fun while building your EV!


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## Automcdonough (Sep 1, 2010)

Don't worry there will be a good build thread. Still working on my plan here.

http://www.transmissionpartsusa.com/700R4_4L60E_Transmission_Planets_Gears_s/7422.htm

I'm starting to think I should start this research in a junkyard.

edit:
here we go
http://www.iedrives.com/products


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## piotrsko (Dec 9, 2007)

my $.02, ask Jimdear to be sure.

Looks like a planetary gear pack setup, but it could be chrysler style RWD possibly 727. Take the motor down to a transmission shop and see if they have parts that fit the hub gear and clutch packs that fit the sprags. Hole in the shaft : you're on your own there. The motor makes it a requirement to be a rear pump trans with the motor being the input shaft. I'm guessing totally submersed.


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## etischer (Jun 16, 2008)

Looks similar to my motor. It also has a helical gear, hollow shaft, and features for automatic transmission parts. The hollow shaft allows a shaft to pass though and drive the right side wheel, while the left side shaft is connected to the differential. 


Note there is a hole drilled in the motors output gear to allow transmission fluid to lubricate and cool the bearings. I switched out the bearings for sealed, lubed for life bearings. 





























I used a taper lock fitting to clamp on to the gear teeth. 



















Then put the whole motor and tranny in a CNC to locate all the dowel pins and shaft centerlines. 










you can read more here:
http://etischer.com/awdev/


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## RE Farmer (Aug 8, 2009)

Automcdonough said:


> Don't worry there will be a good build thread. Still working on my plan here.
> 
> http://www.transmissionpartsusa.com/700R4_4L60E_Transmission_Planets_Gears_s/7422.htm
> 
> ...


Those look like good options. Another, possibly lower cost one, is the Powerglide - light weight (approx. 45#), small (~14" w/o bell housing and short tail shaft) and well understood by circle & drag racers. See also:

http://www.poormansev.com/id29.html

http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showthread.php?t=22045&highlight=powerglide


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## Automcdonough (Sep 1, 2010)

etischer said:


> Looks similar to my motor.
> ...
> you can read more here:
> http://etischer.com/awdev/


 Very clean build, nice.



RE Farmer said:


> Those look like good options. Another, possibly lower cost one, is the Powerglide - light weight (approx. 45#), small (~14" w/o bell housing and short tail shaft) and well understood by circle & drag racers. See also:
> 
> http://www.poormansev.com/id29.html
> 
> http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showthread.php?t=22045&highlight=powerglide


Excellent suggestion.. I'm practically sold on this powerglide idea already.


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## RE Farmer (Aug 8, 2009)

I think the 45# is without the torque converter (TC). Circle track racers run w/o a TC using direct drive. They have to add a pressure relief valve so they can stop w/o killing the engine which isn't an issue for us EVers. 

A second reason I like the PG is the low rotating mass vs. a heavy, large diameter flywheel/clutch/pressure plate with its mounting and throw-out bearing thrust forces on the motor.

I'm seriously considering using an PG. If it fits (diameter wise) in my transmission tunnel, I should be able to fit both the motor AND the PG in a little more than the space of the original trans. leaving almost all the engine bay for mounting batteries down at axle height.


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## Automcdonough (Sep 1, 2010)

Guess what I got for $50.

















I then proceeded to rip it apart.. Both to figure out how it works and to get the housing emptied for the customizing that needs to happen. I also am a little skeptical of it being so cheap. He was upfront about a few busted bolts I have to get out, I understand a lot of people can't deal with those.. but halfway though I found some milkshake in some of the nooks and crannies.. I think it was on his jeep for a mudding adventure. Whatever.. pulling it apart anyways. The outer splines on the input shaft do not rotate. Is this for the torque converter or something?









First thing I noticed is a crack in the tail housing. I'm also not going to be using that silly speedometer gear thing. 1 less hole to worry about leaking.









Bottom view w/ pan removed.









valve assy out









input cover off, input shaft out

























That first drum came out easy. I'm still not sure which part does what mechanically.. this drum has a clutchpack in it as well as a huge clamp around the outside. Either low gear or reverse I assume.









input stuff reassembled outside the box


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## Automcdonough (Sep 1, 2010)

Tailshaft cleared off. I'm still not sure what all that trash on there was, All I can figure is some sort of ATF scavenger to keep the rear bearings lubed. The back plate is like a maze.. I'm sure there has to be a good reason. Maybe this part builds pressure seperately for that 2nd clutchpack?









actuator for the clamp on that 1st stage









I had a hell of a time trying to get the planetary set out.. unfortunately I made the mistake of pulling some pins out, sending needle rollers EVERYWHERE.









was at this stage for hours. The 2nd clutchpack behind the panetary was snagging on every little ridge.









finally. On the bench you can see the outer ring gear and clutchpack. The ridges on the planetary itself are for parking brake lever/cog.









gears all have ridges on them. I think they are ok though. Will have to find a real cam instead of cellphone for this one.









ffffuuuuuu









bell about empty. that plat in the bottom is loaded w/ springs.









netflix until 4am doing this. I am still missing ONE NEEDLE ROLLER.


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## Automcdonough (Sep 1, 2010)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LHpcr15C-PI

LOL, damn gears just fall right out for this guy.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J1YKY0T9Ynw&feature=related
looks like I have the 1.82:1 gears..


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## Jimdear2 (Oct 12, 2008)

If you don't have one, get yourself a good book on powerglides, there are several.

There are lots of mods you can do that will improve the trans. performance outlined in most of them.


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## RE Farmer (Aug 8, 2009)

Nice score on the PG.  

One of the best books is HP books: Powerglide Transmission Handbook. It has how to identify the various PG's, how they operate, o'haul and inspection info plus modding for drag or circle racing. 

Just quickly, the non-turning outer shaft is the TC stator shaft. The front clutch set is for Low (1st) gear and reverse. The rear clutch set is for High (drive). the aft "maze" is the rear pump/governor. (Edit: From looking over your pictures, you have a low power unit (Chevy II, etc.) not from a high power V-8.)

Here's a youtube of a PG cutaway model showing how it shifts gears:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FoJpwNPVESU

There's an ID # (8 alpha-numeric characters) stamped on the right side of the oil pan or for older models the lower right flange face of the bell housing. If you post the ID code, I can tell you which model you have and a little about it.


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## Automcdonough (Sep 1, 2010)

book is on the way..

So the motor got here yesterday. Looks just like the previous pics.. Def not a paperweight. Just giving it a little spin by hand put out enough voltage to blast out a few 12v lights. 
Definitely permanent magnet style, not induction.
Definitely gets submersed in ATF. Even the contacts.. time to find some dielectric data on that oil. The prospect of having 320+ volts in there just sitting in oil seems like an odd approach.

None of the PG gears match up. The motor is metric and a larger diameter than the PG shaft, also the helical gear is too large to try direct fit into the planetary. As far as metric vs standard, well the getrag 260 gears I have laying around are also way different. If I want to keep those gears I could make an adaptor shaft so it's not quite done. I don't know. Still considering this path just based on the simplicity of it, and no matter what I'm gonna be in for a custom housing. It looks like the whole second clutchpack and sun gear I can dump because it's for reverse.. also don't need the governor trash. getting pretty lightweight here.


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## RE Farmer (Aug 8, 2009)

Automcdonough said:


> ... If I want to keep those gears I could make an adaptor shaft so it's not quite done. I don't know. Still considering this path just based on the simplicity of it, and no matter what I'm gonna be in for a custom housing. It looks like the whole second clutchpack and sun gear I can dump because it's for reverse.. also don't need the governor trash. getting pretty lightweight here.


Not sure you can eliminate the sun gear. I think the gear reduction for BOTH Low and Reverse are achieved through the sun gear. However, the reverse ring gear can be machine down to reduce weight and some reverse plates removed. I assume you plan to reverse the motor to backup you car then you may be able to eliminate all the plates in the reverse (rear) drum. I would wait until you get the book to make sure your understanding is correct - there is a section on lightening the PG and what can be eliminated for different purposes. I'm not a PG mechanic so I can't offer definitive advice just my understanding of its operation.


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## piotrsko (Dec 9, 2007)

I suppose the simple thing to do is: CAREFULLY immerse some 230V powered electrodes into clean trans fluid and see what happens (outside of course) I am thinking tranny fluid is dielectric until the trans shavings get in there. Otherwise get friendly with fuses and silicone sealers.

Powerglides aren't metric. I still think a trip to the local rebuilder to see what bolts up is in order.


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## Automcdonough (Sep 1, 2010)

I guess listing the dielectric of ATF is not uncommon on datasheets because utility companies demand electrical isolation for those lift trucks, I'm looking at a penzoil sheet that says 65kv. It doesn't elaborate on the distance used in that measurement but does reference test standard.. It's looking good on that front though. Careful fluid selection should cover it.


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## DawidvC (Feb 14, 2010)

Automcdonough said:


> Definitely gets submersed in ATF. Even the contacts.. time to find some dielectric data on that oil. The prospect of having 320+ volts in there just sitting in oil seems like an odd approach.


Most oils are not very conductive, we use oil in 6600V transformers. Just make sure there is no water mixed in with the oil, as that can create a problem when mixed. ( Actually, neither would carry a current by themselves, but introducing anything else with either water or oil WILL cause it to be conductive)

Dawid


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