# $7500 federal tax credit for EVs?



## Technologic (Jul 20, 2008)

The most information I can find about the current bill is:
"This provision provides a tax credit for buyers of plug-in electric vehicles. It provides a base of $2500 plus an additional $417 per kwh for batteries greater than 4 kwh. For the Chevy Volt, that works out to $7500 per car, a number GM had lobbied for."

6kwh batteries will give us all a $7500 creditable tax? (ie. if you don't even pay that much taxes this year they will actually send you a check with the overrage, unlike a deduction which they wouldn't)

I'm trying to find bill specifics if it must be mass produced, but I have my doubts the bill stipulates it.

Any info you crawlers can find?

All I have to say though is the Chevy Volt is a pile of crap... they shoved 16kwh into it and only gets a 40 mile range when aptera and other companies could have easily given that same pack 180+ mile ranges. I hate that company... $41,999 my ass...


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## Evan (Feb 20, 2008)

Don't get me wrong I wanted to see something like this happen. However, it did not belong as a rider on that bill. I don't care which party you are in this is why our national debt grows and no one can ever have a clear voting history on any single issue. These things cloud debate over the intent and focus of the bill. j

That rant out of my system. You are right. It should be tied to the energy efficiency of the vehicle. We should scrap the whole hybrid credit and the whole ev credit and simply have a tax for vehicals that get a low kWH per passenger ratio. We could use the money to rebuild the national power grid in a green way. That way even if we are wrong and hydrogen works out over battery tech the money will have been well spent. It isn't like the power grid doesn't need rework any how.


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## Technologic (Jul 20, 2008)

Evan said:


> You are right. It should be tied to the energy efficiency of the vehicle.


The downside to that is people would have to actually elect people that graduated from college and actually remembered anything about it.

Unfortunately most politicians probably don't even know what energy efficiency, system entropy, or for that matter how many KWH/mile is a good figure and which are bad ones.


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## Evan (Feb 20, 2008)

Technologic - I really think it should include the number of passengers + cargo. How about that? I mean by a simple KWH/Mile metric a single passenger car that got low efficiency could rank just as highly as a 4 passenger high efficiency vehicle.

As far as I know most of the politicians in congress have gone to college. However, they are almost all lawyers. 
<Begin Lawer Joke>
....
....
</End Lawer Joke>

Jimmy Carter created a program to bring scientists and engineers to congress to educate them. We shut that down a few years back to pay for other things. Granted other engineering organizations do the same now. The question is are they listening? Perhaps we should recraft the credit here and then start a petition. Signatures matter more than a quite polite scientist. We need a loud, direct, but funny scientist. Where is my generations Richard Feynman?


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## gmijackso (Sep 30, 2008)

My coworkers wife is a CPA. Monday I'll talk to him and have him ask her about it. I'm sure she doesn't know much about it yet, but when I find out I'll let everyone know. I know it's about the time of year she starts going to seminars to learn about all of the new tax rules, so I'm sure it will be a topic in one of those.


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## EVMAN (Jul 26, 2007)

This is for NEW vehicles only. Not "retrofits". The EV must be from a recognized manufacturer. Not even EV_Blue or EV's of America would qualify, let alone a DIYer like U or me. I don't build for tax credits. I build cause nobody else has. Driving an EV for over 10yrs now. 6k miles per year. Wanta buy my carbon credits? U can have them for free!!


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## Technologic (Jul 20, 2008)

EVMAN said:


> This is for NEW vehicles only. Not "retrofits". The EV must be from a recognized manufacturer. Not even EV_Blue or EV's of America would qualify, let alone a DIYer like U or me. I don't build for tax credits. I build cause nobody else has. Driving an EV for over 10yrs now. 6k miles per year. Wanta buy my carbon credits? U can have them for free!!


so a ground up build cloaked in a company could work? 

If they have to be RECOGNIZED that's pretty much the most bull shit legislation I've ever seen. That probably means aptera motors would NOT be recognized despite being the single best new EV on the market (about 6 times more efficient yet seats 2 than that retarded chevy volt).

If so I've just lost even the smallest amount of hope I had for this country. Basically this legislation is only for chevy? if so I hope the CEO of chevy gets assasinated >,> and whatever damn retard lead engineer decided a 16kwh pack was necessary for 40 mile ranges with a 41k price tag.


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## EVMAN (Jul 26, 2007)

"so a ground up build cloaked in a company could work? "

don't know what this is 

"If they have to be RECOGNIZED that's pretty much the most bull shit legislation I've ever seen."

BINGO! 

Goes along with the side of pork! 


"That probably means aptera motors would NOT be recognized... "

I don't recall Aptera Motors actually "producing" anything 
Even the Tesla isn't really "produced".
The Tesla is a Lotus Elise.
The Dodge EV is a Lotus Europa.
Interesting....stay tuned to see who buys out who...
Also, only about 350 Sparrows were ever built....not considered "production".

To race in NASCAR, a vehicle body has to be in "production".
"Production" is defined as 500 or more vehicles.
That's how the Plymouth SuperBird made it to the Daytona 500
see--
http://www.sport-cars.org/serve.php?t=plymouthsuperbird

US_Electric_Cars were "ground up" vehicles and got the deduction at the time, because they never were registered as ICE vehicles. USEC bought *gliders* and made them into EVs. Our government bought most of them at $60K+ each and, after 4 years, sent them to DRMO for auction to the public at less than $10K each. U can still find some showing up now and then. In fact, I bought one with bad batteries for $4K; had it for about a year, then decided I would be too expensive to repair then and when (not if) it broke. I like my DC-Powered, DC-Drive EV. May not be fancy, but I don't buy any gasoline!!

Do U think this government wants to promote EVs by leting individuals build their own????? 
What have U been (fill in the blank).


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## Technologic (Jul 20, 2008)

EVMAN said:


> "
> 
> I don't recall Aptera Motors actually "producing" anything
> Even the Tesla isn't really "produced".


the aptera IS in full production (at least starting) they are about to start delivery and should have several thousand done by next year (thanks to some google backing).

If that car isn't covered I'm out of this horrible country as soon as I'm out of law school. I can't stand this crap. You have a group of awesome engineers custom pressing fiberglass honeycomb bodies and making it cost 24k dollars for a 120 mile range (10kwh pack). And Chevy comes along makes a 41k dollar piece of crap that weighs 3000 lbs and they get 1 billion dollars in tax credits? And beyond that it performed better in the wind tunnels backwards. Someone needs to be castrated.

ground up means = starting from piles of metal/glass/CF and making an EV... but then "selling it" to yourself inside an artifical company.


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## Evan (Feb 20, 2008)

Well I think that ties it. This thing is useless. What do you want to bet it won't apply to Tesla ether. This is just a gift to rich people who want to buy a volt and pretend to be environmental.


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## EVMAN (Jul 26, 2007)

Technologic said:


> the aptera IS in full production (at least starting) they are about to start delivery and should have several thousand done by next year (thanks to some google backing).


Ahhh...but the key words are 


Technologic said:


> SHOULD HAVE several thousand ...


we shall have to wait and see.....OK?
Remember the Tango...."just around the corner" etc etc. Pumping millions into a company does not guarantee success... 



Technologic said:


> ground up means = starting from piles of metal/glass/CF and making an EV... but then "selling it" to yourself inside an artifical company.


Better talk to your accountant.  U can take the piles of parts and make a vehicle, but U need to get a VIN. Look up the regisration requirements for a "homebuilt vehicle" at your states DMV. States differ in their 3-wheeler and 4-wheeler requirements. 


Technologic said:


> "...Inside an artificial company"


doesn't sound too "on the level" to me  Again, better talk to an accountant or, better yet a corporate attorney. 

Lastly, since the Aptera is a 3-wheeled vehicle, and classified as a motorcycle in most states (but NOT all), it doesn't have any mandatory saftey or crash tests to pass(in those states). I've watched new electric vehicle companies come and go over the last 30years. I really do hope this one makes it.  And Tesla too


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## saab96 (Mar 19, 2008)

Technologic said:


> All I have to say though is the Chevy Volt is a pile of crap... they shoved 16kwh into it and only gets a 40 mile range when aptera and other companies could have easily given that same pack 180+ mile ranges. I hate that company... $41,999 my ass...


Don't be silly. Aptera would not get the car to 180 mile range with that pack with 4 wheels, seating 4, and lugging an ICE generator.


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## Technologic (Jul 20, 2008)

saab96 said:


> Don't be silly. Aptera would not get the car to 180 mile range with that pack with 4 wheels, seating 4, and lugging an ICE generator.


You're right the aptera with it's ICE generator and 5kwh pack gets well over 500mpg on average for the first 120miles (read they saved a lot of money by simply not being a retard). Then 120mpg after that. Yet still managed to keep a fully fiberglassed/aluminum body with all custom parts and LCD mirrors under 30k dollars with the ice generator version.

And there's no reason 4 seats would add over 200 lbs (assuming there's not 4 additional people as well). and it wouldn't effect the Cd more than 0.01-0.02 if done with the same frontal area.

The volt has the design uniqueness of a transitor radio... the car looks like it could have been thrown together 60 yrs ago and still not appeared "novel" even then. I know let's make an all steel, all steel body, all steel frame, 0.33 Cd electric car and price it near the corvette. Makes me wonder if the lead engineer even graduated from college at all. Pretty sure I could have made a more efficient design at 12 yrs old with lincoln logs.


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## sailfish11 (Sep 15, 2007)

The bill applies only to 'manufactures' of new cars. The new legislation didn't bother to define its terms, instead it just said "use the definitions in the Clean Air Act". The Clean Air Act (42 U.S.C. 7521 et seq.) states:

Sec. 7550. Definitions 

As used in this part-- 
(1) The term ``manufacturer'' as used in sections 7521, 7522, 
7525, 7541, and 7542 of this title means any person engaged in the 
manufacturing or assembling of new motor vehicles, new motor vehicle 
engines, new nonroad vehicles or new nonroad engines, or importing 
such vehicles or engines for resale, or who acts for and is under 
the control of any such person in connection with the distribution 
of new motor vehicles, new motor vehicle engines, new nonroad 
vehicles or new nonroad engines, but shall not include any dealer 
with respect to new motor vehicles, new motor vehicle engines, new 
nonroad vehicles or new nonroad engines received by him in commerce. 
(2) The term ``motor vehicle'' means any self-propelled vehicle 
designed for transporting persons or property on a street or 
highway. 
(3) Except with respect to vehicles or engines imported or 
offered for importation, the term ``new motor vehicle'' means a 
motor vehicle the equitable or legal title to which has never been 
transferred to an ultimate purchaser; and the term ``new motor 
vehicle engine'' means an engine in a new motor vehicle or a motor 
vehicle engine the equitable or legal title to which has never been 
transferred to the ultimate purchaser; and with respect to imported 
vehicles or engines, such terms mean a motor vehicle and engine, 
respectively, manufactured after the effective date of a regulation 
issued under section 7521 of this title which is applicable to such 
vehicle or engine (or which would be applicable to such vehicle or 
engine had it been manufactured for importation into the United 
States). 

So, as written, I don't see how this would apply to us DIY'ers. It seems this was written with a very specific benefactor in mind (GM).


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## Technologic (Jul 20, 2008)

sailfish11 said:


> (1) The term ``manufacturer'' as used in sections 7521, 7522,
> 7525, 7541, and 7542 of this title means any person engaged in the
> manufacturing or assembling of new motor vehicles, new motor vehicle
> engines, new nonroad vehicles or new nonroad engines, or importing
> such vehicles or engines for resale,


 
There could in fact be a way to get around this by creating an "automotive manufacturing company" and ground up building an EV.

This would be considered "new" by any legal term of which I'm aware (excuse my 2 months of law school talking out of my ass here).

The only issue is if there must be a certain production volume necessary annually to be part of the break. If you can get the proper vin etc for a fully custom car. I bet you could...


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## sailfish11 (Sep 15, 2007)

They're way ahead of you Technologic. It's very specific -- to be considered new, the VIN must never have been registered. Now maybe a kit car or something that has never been an ICE car.... But conversions, like almost all the cars on this site, would not qualify.


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## Technologic (Jul 20, 2008)

sailfish11 said:


> They're way ahead of you Technologic. It's very specific -- to be considered new, the VIN must never have been registered. Now maybe a kit car or something that has never been an ICE car.... But conversions, like almost all the cars on this site, would not qualify.


that was precisely my question. I intend to build a ground up custom car ... starting from a pile of tubes (similar to the locost but enclosed with a super low Cd).

Since that would be a new registration and new vin it could qualify. Seems if they wanted to specifically only help GM they could have included a clause concerning "production quantities". Also, however I believe if you mix match over 50% of a car's part it calls for a new VIN.


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## saab96 (Mar 19, 2008)

Outside of Prius plugin conversions and the Poulson hybrid proposal I don't see any "movement" pushing the idea of conversions of used cars as a scalable solution to electrifying transportation, and that's what it would take to win active government support. It's purely a curiosity at this point, and something that falls between the cracks of regulation. It's neither encouraged nor discouraged.


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## Technologic (Jul 20, 2008)

saab96 said:


> Outside of Prius plugin conversions and the Poulson hybrid proposal I don't see any "movement" pushing the idea of conversions of used cars as a scalable solution to electrifying transportation, and that's what it would take to win active government support. It's purely a curiosity at this point, and something that falls between the cracks of regulation. It's neither encouraged nor discouraged.


well the market share isn't large enough to have any sort of impact on such things. Amazingly this bill for the first time gives federal recognition to EVs as an "alternative energy". It has so heavily been biodiesel (not sustainable) and hybrids (not sustainable long term).

one day, hopefully out of the USA but probably out of china, we will see carbon nanotube batteries that are grown 

However this bill, if it can be used for any ground up tube frame etc type car, I could see this helping EVers. 1stly it would allow people to create cars more designed for EVs, and use lithium for basically free.


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## order99 (Sep 8, 2008)

If we're talking about production models...the Zap Xebra has been imported for just over two years now so they probably qualify for Production status by now-or does this act not include imports?

And then there's Myers Motors, picking up where Corbin left off.Any idea how many NMG's they've managed to produce to date? Surely they should qualify by now...

Just to clarify-does this bill exclude bikes, trikes and scooters? Because if two and three-wheelers can get in on this then there could be a LOT of people claiming that tax rebate!


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## abudabit (Sep 18, 2008)

Mine will qualify! If I get this business started I'm going through the formal procedure of registering as a Texas based vehicle manufacturer. What's cool is these are small motorcycle esque vehicles, so selling them at $5000 my customers would qualify for the base $2500 credit. Not bad, half the purchase price is deductible.  If I ever get past the prototype staget that is. 

And since I despise the government, I have no qualms about helping my customers avoid taxes.


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## Technologic (Jul 20, 2008)

order99 said:


> If we're talking about production models...the Zap Xebra has been imported for just over two years now so they probably qualify for Production status by now-or does this act not include imports?
> 
> And then there's Myers Motors, picking up where Corbin left off.Any idea how many NMG's they've managed to produce to date? Surely they should qualify by now...
> 
> Just to clarify-does this bill exclude bikes, trikes and scooters? Because if two and three-wheelers can get in on this then there could be a LOT of people claiming that tax rebate!


The bill's language suggests it covers imports as well

3 wheel, 2 wheel doesn't explicitly say anywhere I guess. But if it uses the term "car" that means 4 wheels or in a few special places "3 wheel enclosed".


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## abudabit (Sep 18, 2008)

Doesn't just refer to cars, it looks like it refers to vehicles. So 2 wheelers and 3 wheelers also apply. But they have to be street legal.



Text from the bill said:


> (2) The term ``motor vehicle'' means any self-propelled vehicle
> designed for transporting persons or property on a street or
> highway.


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## Technologic (Jul 20, 2008)

abudabit said:


> Doesn't just refer to cars, it looks like it refers to vehicles. So 2 wheelers and 3 wheelers also apply. But they have to be street legal.


 
My guess is that portion of the bill has a lot more guidelines than just what's stated there. I can't imagine congress or any other overly intellectualized corrupted organization not jargoning their documents as much as possible.


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## dyne (Oct 8, 2008)

saab96 said:


> Don't be silly. Aptera would not get the car to 180 mile range with that pack with 4 wheels, seating 4, and lugging an ICE generator.


That, and the Aptera will be significantly less safe in probably any crash. The volt has many more design restrictions and regulations it has to follow, which drive up the price a bit. I imagine they spent and did a lot more development for the volt than Aptera did for their vehicle.


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## Technologic (Jul 20, 2008)

dyne said:


> That, and the Aptera will be significantly less safe in probably any crash. The volt has many more design restrictions and regulations it has to follow, which drive up the price a bit. I imagine they spent and did a lot more development for the volt than Aptera did for their vehicle.


2 words: "fiberglass ribbing"

can be up to 20 times stiffer per axis than solid steel per gram (which definitely isn't what frames are made out of in the volt... more like 1/8" thick box frames)

ceramic shattering coupled with aluminum plasticizing has the ability to absorb exponentially more energy than normal car frames and weigh less.... not that the aptera weighs a small amount... even with it's light lithium cells it still weighs in at 1800 lbs (read... almost what the miata does). so their fiberglass honeycomb body and frame is LIKELY vastly stronger and more safe than the volt. My guess is they are vastly better engineers than Chevy's team as evidenced by them going for balls to the wall engineering specs and not "how can I make this in my factories that are outdated right now and overprice it to hell"

Give me 1/25th GMs yearly R&D budget and I could start hot casting pure sapphire frames for only slightly more than steel, yet 4 times lighter and 8 times stiffer. Of course it's never been done before, so therefore it's impossible right? *nods* (not that aptera tried to do that, they didn't need to... all they needed to do was take very basic 3 piece body techniques and start making honeycomb bodies)


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## order99 (Sep 8, 2008)

abudabit said:


> Mine will qualify! If I get this business started I'm going through the formal procedure of registering as a Texas based vehicle manufacturer. What's cool is these are small motorcycle esque vehicles, so selling them at $5000 my customers would qualify for the base $2500 credit. Not bad, half the purchase price is deductible.  If I ever get past the prototype staget that is.
> 
> And since I despise the government, I have no qualms about helping my customers avoid taxes.


 Keep us posted on this, please. Incidentally, any Enclosed Trikes or Custom Kits in your production future?

Okay, back to topic now...


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