# Luigi goes electric. Fiat 500 R + Agni 95-R



## Salty9 (Jul 13, 2009)

Nice blog. Looks like it's going to be a fun build.


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## Jozzer (Mar 29, 2009)

Very nice, great combination of drive and car, I've been looking for a cheap Fiat 127 to pop an Agni into myself. The 127 is the smallest car you can actually fit a double bass into
What size battery pack do you think you'll be able to squeeze in?

Steve


riwe said:


> Hi all,
> 
> Just wanted to share my latest project. I'm converting a 1973 fiat 500 R to electricity. I've created a blog that could help other do the same.
> 
> ...


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## Yabert (Feb 7, 2010)

Hi

I'm also interested to know more detail about the battery pack you think use and where you will fit it.


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## riwe (Nov 17, 2011)

Yabert said:


> Hi
> 
> I'm also interested to know more detail about the battery pack you think use and where you will fit it.


Hi guys,

My plan is to use 26 Lifepo4 150Ah packs. They would be located in the front and in the back. But as you know that involves alot of $ so I guess I will start of with lead acid 50Ah just to get everything up and running.

Best regards

Rikard


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## Yabert (Feb 7, 2010)

From the graph I have find, a 50Ah lead battery will be rated at 20Ah when you discharge it at 2C (100A). 100A x 72v is just around 8hp!

So, because the 50Ah battery will cost 600-900$ (100$-150$ each) and because you can only use around 15-20 Ah of those cells, if it' just to do some test, you can maybe keep an eye on small LifePo4 cells.
For example, 26 cells 38120s 10Ah will cost around 400-500$ and 26 cells 40160s 16 Ah will cost around 700-800$.
Maybe this 20Ah: http://www.ev-power.eu/?p=p_46&sName=lifeypo4-cells-(3.2v)

I used 7 Kg of headway 10 Ah in my Smart fortwo to do some test. That worked great.... for short travels at low speed!
It's just an idea!


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## riwe (Nov 17, 2011)

Hi yabert!

You got a good point. Testing with low amp lifepo4 also gives me a chance to learn more about bms and charging. Ideal would be to be able to use the cells from test in parallel wither real pack, but i guess the discharge C would be a problem.

What about pouch cells? Those are minimal in size and weight, what is the draw backs? 

What are your recommendations regarding bms? It would be nice to have a bms and a charger that can communicate.

Best regards

Rikard


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## Yabert (Feb 7, 2010)

riwe said:


> What about pouch cells? Those are minimal in size and weight, what is the draw backs?


Nothing except the more complex multiple connection. But don't mix batteries chemistry.




> What are your recommendations regarding bms? It would be nice to have a bms and a charger that can communicate


I use Mini BMS: http://minibms.mybigcommerce.com/
Simple, low cost, communicate with charger.
etc...
I also use her EV display.


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## dtbaker (Jan 5, 2008)

riwe said:


> What about pouch cells? Those are minimal in size and weight, what is the draw backs?



cost....

bang for buck, and reliable delivery from a US warehouse, ease of wiring into a pack, I'd say CALBs are the current winner.


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## rwaudio (May 22, 2008)

I'm testing with a small pack of 20ah A123 pouches, 100lbs of battery gives me about 30km and good power and a top speed over 120km/h. I've also tested with 50lbs of battery and I get less range and speed, but works very well.
These cells are great because even a 60ah pack lets me draw 1000A without destroying anything.

How far and how fast would you get with 50-100lbs of lead?


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## riwe (Nov 17, 2011)

riwe said:


> Hi all,
> 
> Just wanted to share my latest project. I'm converting a 1973 fiat 500 R to electricity. I've created a blog that could help other do the same.
> 
> ...


 
Major update! Adapter plate is now done! Check it out!


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## dtbaker (Jan 5, 2008)

by the way, on seats you can get very light aluminum shell seats in either high or low back by Kirkey.... at SummitRacing, or direct from Kirkey. I also found some nice vintage design seats by Corbeau.


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## riwe (Nov 17, 2011)

Motor is now in the car!

http://luigi500.blogspot.com

Check it out!

Best regards

Rikard


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## Yabert (Feb 7, 2010)

Awesome job!

What is your Kelly model?
I thinks it's will be your weakest link. 
Why don't have choose an Alltrax?


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## Salty9 (Jul 13, 2009)

Bravo Luigi!


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## riwe (Nov 17, 2011)

Hi Yabert,

It's a KDC 72601 and I think you might be right. That why I'm adding additional cooling. I got the Kelly with the motor, it's second hand.





Yabert said:


> Awesome job!
> 
> What is your Kelly model?
> I thinks it's will be your weakest link.
> Why don't have choose an Alltrax?


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## Jozzer (Mar 29, 2009)

Looks great, good work!

The 600A kelly should be a good match for that Agni, though the later model in the larger housing does handle the power better for sure.

Looks like it will be running soon!

Steve


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## riwe (Nov 17, 2011)

Hi all,

A new update on the build. I've been playing around with the Kelly and found some undocumented features when it comes to regen. I'll post the findings in the right forum. 

An update has been posted on http://luigi500.blogspot.com/2011/12/choice-off-controller.html

Anyways, thing are looking good and I now have 90Kg of lithium's in my livingroom  

Best regards

Rikard


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## mora (Nov 11, 2009)

Good going. Very clearly written posts in your blog. 90kg of lithium is something like 8kWh? Good choice. It should give you good city range.


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## Yabert (Feb 7, 2010)

Lithium's! 
24S 100Ah??


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## riwe (Nov 17, 2011)

mora said:


> Good going. Very clearly written posts in your blog. 90kg of lithium is something like 8kWh? Good choice. It should give you good city range.


Hi Mora,

Thank you! It's more like 7Kwh, but I think it will be a good start.


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## riwe (Nov 17, 2011)

Long time no see...

Well I'm back and this time armed with the skill to TIG-weld. 90Kg of LiFeYPO4 is now installed in the fiat.

Check out http://luigi500.blogspot.se/

Best regards

Rikard


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## MalcolmB (Jun 10, 2008)

Hej Rikard,
Those 12V monoblocs look really interesting. The price is pretty good too. I guess if the individual cells are well matched at the factory they should stay closely balanced without any cell-level balancing. The only thing I would be concerned about is making sure there is little temperature variation across any single block that might cause drift between the four cells. I would be tempted to put a heat shield or thin layer of insulation between the motor and the ends of the blocks that are closest to it. Please let us know how they work out for you.
Malcolm


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## riwe (Nov 17, 2011)

Hi Malcom,

I was a bit skeptic in the beginning, but the guys at ev-power.eu provided a lot of data like discharge rates and I decided to try it. One thing that needs to be done in order to keep the blocks balanced is to charge them all in parallel a couple of times. Ev-power recommends the following approach for balancing:
* During the initial charge 
* After the first cycle 
* After the first 5 cycles 
* After the first 20 cycles 
* After the first 50 cycles 
* And then continue any time differences between batteries are noticed, about once every 50 to 200 cycles. 
That’s a good idea. I will put a heat shield to protect the batteries. 
Thank you
Rikard


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## MalcolmB (Jun 10, 2008)

I see you've also bought one of the TC chargers from GWL Power. I've been looking at those myself. Do you know if the final output voltage is adjustable at all? My pack voltage will be midway between the voltages of the two closest models. I've downloaded the charger specification, but don't see any mention of adjustability.


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## riwe (Nov 17, 2011)

MalcolmB said:


> I see you've also bought one of the TC chargers from GWL Power. I've been looking at those myself. Do you know if the final output voltage is adjustable at all? My pack voltage will be midway between the voltages of the two closest models. I've downloaded the charger specification, but don't see any mention of adjustability.


Thats right! As far as I know the final voltage can not be altered. It might be that you can order one with a specific voltage.

Amp's can be controlled by CAN or by a 0-2v input.

R


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## mora (Nov 11, 2009)

TC charger (company itself) will alter output voltage per customers needs. They assume 3.65V per cell for LFP chemistry and will ask number of cells in your pack when you are placing your order. Other ending voltages are also possible. I believe ending voltage is adjustable in software and other hardware sets limits for voltage range. When voltage desired is out of range then different hardware is used.

I haven't asked if GWL Power can perform programming of chargers. I wish they could so chargers could be customized for any number of cells and not limited to most commonly used setups.


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## MalcolmB (Jun 10, 2008)

Thanks mora. I hadn't realised until now that these are the Elcon chargers.


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## riwe (Nov 17, 2011)

Hi all! 

Luigi is on the road, not 100% reday but I'm getting close.


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## MalcolmB (Jun 10, 2008)

Grattis Rikard, det är en riktigt fin liten bil!

What sort of requirements do you have to meet in Sweden to get a conversion on the road?


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## riwe (Nov 17, 2011)

MalcolmB said:


> Grattis Rikard, det är en riktigt fin liten bil!
> 
> What sort of requirements do you have to meet in Sweden to get a conversion on the road?


Hey, do you speak Swedish?

What are your plans? Send me an email on [email protected]

R


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## MalcolmB (Jun 10, 2008)

riwe said:


> Hey, do you speak Swedish?
> 
> What are your plans? Send me an email on [email protected]
> 
> R


Yes, I lived in Gothenburg for a few years and earn my crust as a freelance translator (mostly Swedish to English). I'm just curious about how easy/difficult it is to get a car on the road in Sweden as I still have a few friends over there. I read your blog, but didn't see anything about legal requirements.

Malcolm


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## riwe (Nov 17, 2011)

MalcolmB said:


> Yes, I lived in Gothenburg for a few years and earn my crust as a freelance translator (mostly Swedish to English). I'm just curious about how easy/difficult it is to get a car on the road in Sweden as I still have a few friends over there. I read your blog, but didn't see anything about legal requirements.
> 
> Malcolm


Hi Malcolm,

Well it depends. If you are converting an old car, i think older that 1996 is easier. You still need all functions like, horns, window washers, lights and so on. I think the big thing is to keep the car as light as possible so you dont impact breaks and suspensions. If you exceed the max weight you need to go through a huge process.

I'm hoping to get my car cleard by June but time flies. I'll keep you updated. 

R


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## riwe (Nov 17, 2011)

Hi all,

I made a small video of todays test run. The Kelly is set to 450A and torque mode. Its a rocket! 

http://youtu.be/E5nGnoMznTE


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## MalcolmB (Jun 10, 2008)

That looks very nippy for a 72V system. There's a lot to be said for converting a small, lightweight car. I really like the simplicity of this conversion. Have you any idea of the 0–80 kph time? Do you use all the gears or just a couple of them?


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## riwe (Nov 17, 2011)

Hi!

Yes I'm surprised myself! I'm going to do some more testing after the wheel alignment. A friend of mine has a small "race" computer that messures acceleration and so on

I'll post as soon as i get it done.

Best regards

Rikard


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## Yabert (Feb 7, 2010)

I really like your conversion!
72v (simple), clean, light and nice!

Great job. 

Take care of the controller and motor temperature before start to push at limit!


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## riwe (Nov 17, 2011)

Yabert said:


> I really like your conversion!
> 72v (simple), clean, light and nice!
> 
> Great job.
> ...


 
Thank you!

I noticed that the Agni gets hot when under load. The termistor used in the agni is not compatible with the kelly controller and i dont know if I can change it.

One thing that I might do is to modify the paktrakr. It has a temp reader in the remote. I'm going to se if I can remove that from the remote and extend it to the motor. 

Whats the "max" running temp of an electric motor anyways? 

Best regards

Rikard


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## Yabert (Feb 7, 2010)

riwe said:


> Whats the "max" running temp of an electric motor anyways?


Well, I don't see many info about this, but insulating varnish inside motor is generally rated for 150 or 180°C and I guess the magnets are rated for similare temperature.
So, to be sure, you can ask at Agni. But I guess that maintain the motor under 80-100°C is a good rule of thumb.


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## riwe (Nov 17, 2011)

Yabert said:


> Well, I don't see many info about this, but insulating varnish inside motor is generally rated for 150 or 180°C and I guess the magnets are rated for similare temperature.
> So, to be sure, you can ask at Agni. But I guess that maintain the motor under 80-100°C is a good rule of thumb.


Hi!

I found an value of 90°C but I have not verified it with Agni. The therminstor in the Agni has the following data:

A negative temperature-coefficient thermistor that has a resistance of 15 to 35K ohms at ambient temperature and about 2k ohms at the maximum acceptable temperature of the brush holder.

The Kelly thermistor on the other hand is a positive temperature-coefficient thermistor.


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## riwe (Nov 17, 2011)

riwe said:


> Hi!
> 
> I found an value of 90°C but I have not verified it with Agni. The therminstor in the Agni has the following data:
> 
> ...


 
An update on the temp guard. Turns out the thermistor in the paktrakr remote is actually integrated in the "main" IC, so thats a no go.


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## Jozzer (Mar 29, 2009)

Yes indeed, 90C is around the top temp you want to see on an Agni.

We have a little MCU overtemp device on the way to production that could be used to limit throttle or turn on a fan/pump at overheat - hopefully we'll have it up for sale in a month or two..

We've had great results with water spray cooling the Agni's - just inject a spray of water onto the outside circumference of the rotor through the vent holes on the endplate once temp reaches 80C or so, it evaporates off and sheds a lot of heat pretty quickly..

Well done on the car, very nice job - and perfect little getaround car!


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## riwe (Nov 17, 2011)

Jozzer said:


> Yes indeed, 90C is around the top temp you want to see on an Agni.
> 
> We have a little MCU overtemp device on the way to production that could be used to limit throttle or turn on a fan/pump at overheat - hopefully we'll have it up for sale in a month or two..
> 
> ...


 
Thank you Jozzer,

Do you have any pictures showing the spray mechanism? A pump, a nozzle, a water container, and a temp controlled relay that triggers the pump.

Found this on the web, it's actually from Cedric Lync himself:
http://ideas.egrandprix.com/viewtopic.php?p=85

"and you need about 40 millilitres per minute which you get from a 1mm jet fed by gravity with a 250mm head"

Not sure what it really means.


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## riwe (Nov 17, 2011)

Jozzer said:


> Yes indeed, 90C is around the top temp you want to see on an Agni.
> 
> We have a little MCU overtemp device on the way to production that could be used to limit throttle or turn on a fan/pump at overheat - hopefully we'll have it up for sale in a month or two..
> 
> ...


 
Thank you Jozzer,

Do you have any pictures showing the spray mechanism? A pump, a nozzle, a water container, and a temp controlled relay that triggers the pump.

Found this on the web, it's actually from Cedric Lync himself:
http://ideas.egrandprix.com/viewtopic.php?p=85

"and you need about 40 millilitres per minute which you get from a 1mm jet fed by gravity with a 250mm head"

Not sure what it really means.


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## MalcolmB (Jun 10, 2008)

Thanks for the link to that question and answer thread Rikard. As usual Cedric's comments make a lot of good sense. His suggestion for water-cooling is very simple, as most of his solutions are. "Gravity feed" means he doesn't use a pump, just a container of water connected to a tube with a one-millimetre-diameter nozzle at the other end, to spray water on to the rotor.

The " 250mm head" is the height of the water in the tank above the nozzle (dvs vattenpelare).

The water container will naturally need a small hole in the lid.


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## riwe (Nov 17, 2011)

MalcolmB said:


> Thanks for the link to that question and answer thread Rikard. As usual Cedric's comments make a lot of good sense. His suggestion for water-cooling is very simple, as most of his solutions are. "Gravity feed" means he doesn't use a pump, just a container of water connected to a tube with a one-millimetre-diameter nozzle at the other end, to spray water on to the rotor.
> 
> The " 250mm head" is the height of the water in the tank above the nozzle (dvs vattenpelare).
> 
> The water container will naturally need a small hole in the lid.


Thank you for the explanation! 
Would a small tank of water located 250mm above the nozzle give the same result? 

Im thinking a small circuit that reads the agni thermistor value and triggers a solinoid when the preset temp is rearched. The solinoid opens the waterflow and when the temperature is back to "normal" the flow is stoped.

Best regards

Rikard


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## riwe (Nov 17, 2011)

Hi all,

Could not get this out of my head 

Would this work?

http://luigi500.blogspot.se/2012/06/performance-modifications.html

Best regards

Rikard


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## Jozzer (Mar 29, 2009)

I'll try and post a pic of our pressurised system later in the week - all we have is currently installed on vehicles in hard to reach places!

Cedric has indeed experimented with a drip fed system sucessfully. 
I prefer the pressurised system for a couple of reasons, firstly Cedric's method envolves drilling a hole near the bearing housing to let the water into the centre of the motor, and secondly the flow cannot be easily controlled (which is OK in a race setting where you are sure you will need the water, but not so good when you need it occassionally and don't want the water to be flinging out of a cold motor - as in this case).

I found when tuning the setup on the dyno that a high pressure atomised spray drops temps the fastest and with the least water being flung out, and was able to sustain over 20KW continuously with this method (even greater with the new 111RDR motors).
I use a 12v pump and nozzle setup from AquaMist in the UK (just down the road from me - specialising in watercooling race turbo assemblies).

Steve


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## Jozzer (Mar 29, 2009)

For those interested, here is the temp and current graph of a 111 motor during a race with a water spray setup (pressurised) fitted.
You can see the motor heats up fairly rapidly (less than 5 mins from 50C to 100C), but as soon as the pump turns on at 90C the temps stabilise..

This data log was recorded with the same device I mentioned before that we use to control the pump.


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## riwe (Nov 17, 2011)

Jozzer said:


> For those interested, here is the temp and current graph of a 111 motor during a race with a water spray setup (pressurised) fitted.
> You can see the motor heats up fairly rapidly (less than 5 mins from 50C to 100C), but as soon as the pump turns on at 90C the temps stabilise..
> 
> This data log was recorded with the same device I mentioned before that we use to control the pump.


 
Hey Jozzer, 

That 111RDR looks amazing and the cooling is really doing it's job. 

So you might be able to supply both device and nozzle for the 95/111?

Best regards

R


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## Jozzer (Mar 29, 2009)

riwe said:


> Hey Jozzer,
> 
> That 111RDR looks amazing and the cooling is really doing it's job.
> 
> ...


 Hi there,
We will certainly be offering the control device for sale later, the water system can be bought from AquaMist in the UK. I may get a kit together later for it all if demand is high.
A basic version could be made on the cheap using a car windscreen waterpump and jet..this would work well enough for road applications.

Cheers,
Steve


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## riwe (Nov 17, 2011)

Jozzer said:


> Hi there,
> We will certainly be offering the control device for sale later, the water system can be bought from AquaMist in the UK. I may get a kit together later for it all if demand is high.
> A basic version could be made on the cheap using a car windscreen waterpump and jet..this would work well enough for road applications.
> 
> ...


Hi Steve,

Ok I'm a build a budget version to start with. Where do you place the jet I'm unable to place it on the shaftside. Would it work to place on "top" spraying through the one of the small holes in the stainless ring?

What size of spray nozzle do you recommend?

Best regards

Rikard


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## Jozzer (Mar 29, 2009)

Hi Rikard,

It's better to have the nozzle aiming into the hole on the endplate (sidecase) towards the armature, the motor already draws air in through these holes and expells it around the circumference (stainless band).

The finer you can get the spray the more effective it will be - but that depends a lot on the pressure your pump can maintain. 1mm might be a good place to start..

Cheers,
Steve


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## riwe (Nov 17, 2011)

Hi all,
I did some highway testing today. 0-60kmh is quick! I did not push it faster than 100Kmh.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s5v9k79JLd8&feature=youtu.be

I had a multimeter connected to the thermistor on the Agni and It got as low as 4,9K ohms. I'll try and get a graph from Agni to give me the temp.
As far as I know 2K ohms is MAX working temp.

Best regards

Rikard


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## Yabert (Feb 7, 2010)

Awesome!

72v conversion in a small car: Simple, cost wise, clean and highway speed capable.... I like it!

Don't hesitate to show more result/test!
Thanks


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## Salty9 (Jul 13, 2009)

Cooling misters are available at plumbing stores. I installed some on our deck. They put out a real fine mist at about 35 psi. For motor cooling probably should use distilled water to avoid clogging the mister and deposits on the motor.


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## Salty9 (Jul 13, 2009)

Cooling misters are available at plumbing stores. I installed some on our deck. They put out a real fine mist at about 35 psi. For motor cooling probably should use distilled water to avoid clogging the mister and deposits on the motor.


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## Jozzer (Mar 29, 2009)

Salty9 said:


> Cooling misters are available at plumbing stores. I installed some on our deck. They put out a real fine mist at about 35 psi. For motor cooling probably should use distilled water to avoid clogging the mister and deposits on the motor.


Sounds like just the job...


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## riwe (Nov 17, 2011)

Hi All,

Luigi is now street legal!!! No problems at all!


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## tomofreno (Mar 3, 2009)

That's a cute car, and I bet a blast to drive! I want one! Congratulations!


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## Salty9 (Jul 13, 2009)

Way to go! Car looks good and you did a nice job on that EVgrin too.


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## riwe (Nov 17, 2011)

Salty9 said:


> Way to go! Car looks good and you did a nice job on that EVgrin too.


 
Hahahahah! Thank you! The "EVgrin" is a must!


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## Salty9 (Jul 13, 2009)

Rikard, 

Do you have any performance data? Things like weight, acceleration, top speed, range, whr/mile. It looks like it would be an ideal commuter vehicle.http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showthread.php/luigi-goes-electric-fiat-500-r-65753p5.html


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## riwe (Nov 17, 2011)

Salty9 said:


> Rikard,
> 
> Do you have any performance data? Things like weight, acceleration, top speed, range, whr/mile. It looks like it would be an ideal commuter vehicle.


Hi,

I haven't got exact figures yet but the top speed is about 110Km/h. Cruising speed about 90Kmh on highway. 

I've borrowed a gtec from a friend so acceleration, 0-100kmh, and horsepower will be measured soon.


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## MalcolmB (Jun 10, 2008)

Congratulations Rikard! I'm looking forward to hearing your performance figures as well.


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## riwe (Nov 17, 2011)

Thank you all,

I'm back from my vacation and I thought I would take the little race car for a drive. I ended up FRYING my brush holder and brushes pretty bad! A word of advice, if you are going 100Km/h+ and it smells like you grandmas old radio in your EV - find an exit 










Does anyone know where to get a replacement holder and brushes? I heard about some aftermarket brush holders that would handle the heat better that the original. 

Best regards

Rikard


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## Jozzer (Mar 29, 2009)

Oh dear - at least you'll know that smell in future!
We stock these parts - jozztek.com. Looks like 4 brushes may still be good, save those for future use (or buy only 4 brushes and a new holder and reuse these 4 - keeping them all on the same polarity so the resistances match).

Steve

PS, there are aftermarket holders avaialable for LMC motors that may fit, but the brushes are a different size (so you won't be able to reuse the 4 good ones), and I couldn't actually see much of an improvement when I tried one on the dyno. Ventilation around the motor is more important IMO..


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

riwe said:


> Thank you all,
> 
> I'm back from my vacation and I thought I would take the little race car for a drive. I ended up FRYING my brush holder and brushes pretty bad! A word of advice, if you are going 100Km/h+ and it smells like you grandmas old radio in your EV - find an exit
> 
> ...


Hi riwe,

This looks pretty typical of the failures I have seen in the past. It is very likely, almost certain, that you have damaged the armature and I doubt it can be repaired. There is an outfit that sells hop-up parts for these Agnii including large heat sinks for the brush assembly. If I think of it, I'll post it. Jozzer would know.

I take a lot of crap because I recommend against these (and other brushed PM) motors. So I just kept quiet seeing you go down this path. I said to myself it is a small car and he will drive easy. Look what happened. Point is............you may be better off getting a proper wound field motor instead of repairing the Agni, especially if you're going to drive hard.

Sorry for your loss,

major


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## MN Driver (Sep 29, 2009)

It's sucks to see such a meltdown, hopefully you'll be back to the EV grin in short order.


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## Jozzer (Mar 29, 2009)

major said:


> Hi riwe,
> 
> This looks pretty typical of the failures I have seen in the past. It is very likely, almost certain, that you have damaged the armature and I doubt it can be repaired. There is an outfit that sells hop-up parts for these Agnii including large heat sinks for the brush assembly. If I think of it, I'll post it. Jozzer would know.
> 
> ...


 I don't like to disagree with Major (sorry!  ), but I'd say that the armature was very unlikely to be damaged by such a light meltdown. Even if the commutator has been burnt a little it can easily be cleaned (with a sanding stone of the right size/grade). Only if the armature has been heated until the solder leaks out (it sprays out and can usually be seen through the stainless steel banding holes), or if it has actually shorted (which would likely have damaged the other brushes) will it need replacing.
If you have any pics of the rest of the motor I can probably tell you for sure..
Rigging the temp sensor up to something that can protect against overheat wwould be a good idea - whether you keep the Agni OR go for a series wound beast.. Whatever motor you get, if you push it too far it will burn..


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

Jozzer said:


> I don't like to disagree with Major (sorry!  ),..


You're one of those guys giving me crap, aren't you 

And Jozz is correct that you may be able to "sand" the armature and re-use it. But it is far from the equivalent of turning a real commutator and it will never be good as new, so your next failure will happen even sooner or at lesser abuse.

Let's see what that armature looks like


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## Jozzer (Mar 29, 2009)

major said:


> You're one of those guys giving me crap, aren't you
> 
> And Jozz is correct that you may be able to "sand" the armature and re-use it. But it is far from the equivalent of turning a real commutator and it will never be good as new, so your next failure will happen even sooner or at lesser abuse.
> 
> Let's see what that armature looks like


 Every chance I get old chap!
And here I go again
In my experience when dyno testing, it is possible to clean the commutator (as long as it hasn't been overheated till insulation/solder is damaged) and achieve the same efficiency as before with no loss of available power or reliability - in fact, I clean mine regularly after hard thrashing to maintain optimimal commutation. To reach high currents at high speeds a clean commutator is essential on these motors (Mr Lynch would agree with this).
A pic of the commutation face will tell us how badly it was damaged - I've seen brush holders in worse condition that had barely marked the commutator.

Major, I guess your comment about commutators is true then for series wound motors? So if I were to clean the copper on my big Kostov, it wouldn't run as well afterwards?


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## riwe (Nov 17, 2011)

Interesting, thanks for all the input!
I'll get a picture for us tomorrow. This is a second hand Agni and I don’t know how much abuse it has gone through before I started.
Best regards
Rikard


Jozzer said:


> Every chance I get old chap!
> And here I go again
> In my experience when dyno testing, it is possible to clean the commutator (as long as it hasn't been overheated till insulation/solder is damaged) and achieve the same efficiency as before with no loss of available power or reliability - in fact, I clean mine regularly after hard thrashing to maintain optimimal commutation. To reach high currents at high speeds a clean commutator is essential on these motors (Mr Lynch would agree with this).
> A pic of the commutation face will tell us how badly it was damaged - I've seen brush holders in worse condition that had barely marked the commutator.
> ...


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

Jozzer said:


> Major, I guess your comment about commutators is true then for series wound motors? So if I were to clean the copper on my big Kostov, it wouldn't run as well afterwards?


It depends on the quality and condition of the 'real" commutator in question. The good old school steel core mica V-ring comms could be turned and undercut to "as good as new" condition a number of times over the product life. Newer plastic insert molded comms can be a different story. But the Agni construction of the armature "comm" surface is a far cry from the serviceability of a real commutator. I agree that one may be able to sand and use it, but that heat which ate the brushes also did "some" damage to the thin copper and it ain't never goin' to be good as new


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## riwe (Nov 17, 2011)

Hi Again,

I've taken two pictures of the armarture and as you can see there are a couple of "deeper" burns. What your opinion?




















Best regards 

Rikard


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

riwe said:


> Hi Again,
> 
> I've taken two pictures of the armarture and as you can see there are a couple of "deeper" burns. What your opinion?


That doesn't look nearly as bad as I had imagined. Maybe Jozz knows something


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## riwe (Nov 17, 2011)

major said:


> That doesn't look nearly as bad as I had imagined. Maybe Jozz knows something


 
Hahaha let's hope your right.


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

riwe said:


> Hahaha let's hope your right.


I've been looking at the photos while drinking morning coffee. Very nice pics  On the first photo, count 7 copper segments down from the top. Towards the inside (nearer to the shaft), you can plainly see erosion of the copper on the bottom edge. This is what happens during arcing. Like electric discharge machining (EDM). There are some others with lesser amounts.

Sanding the surface will not put material back into those voids. And I also see a little bit of copper drag. Probably not enough to be a concern.

Compared to other failures of this type which I've seen, you fared much better.


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## Jozzer (Mar 29, 2009)

Aye, that will clean up nicely - just clean it till the grooves are gone.
It's certainly not been burnt or overheated, though as Major points out some arcing did occur. The area near the centre/shaft doesn't make full contact with the brushes usually, in fact we usually remove a little meat from the inside edge of new brushes for racing. This area, where the copper sweeps in too the centre can effectivly contact before/after (depending on direction of rotation) the rest of the surface, causing some arcing. This can occur even without the brush damage that this motor has suffered.

Find a soft sanding stick the same size as the brushes, rotate the motor and push the stick against the copper until it runs clean and smooth.
To power the motor whilst you achieve this, either turn it with a drill/lathe, or modify your burnt brush holder to power only 2 brushes and allow space to insert the stick. To do this, try to cut the holder in half and refit only 2 opposite brushes, then connect to a power supply to spin the motor up (12v should do). If this isn't clear let me know and I'll post pics..

Unfortionatly, I don't have sanding sticks in stock and am having trouble locating a good source for them - Major, do you know of a company that might sell commutator sticks to order?


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## riwe (Nov 17, 2011)

Hey!

Thanks guys!

Sanding sticks... My soon to be wife uses something like that for her nails but I'm guessing she won't let me use them in the garage 
I'm thinking about my timing settings. Since the Agni is only working in one direction I altered the timing as described in the workshop manual. I thought that I would rev more than I do when on the high way. Typically I would like to do about 80Km/h when on the high way. The ratio in the gearbox gives me two choices, third gear and close to max rpm or forth gear and lower rpm. My guess is that in forth gear I would push more Amp's through the motor at a lower RPM and this would be bad for the "natural" cooling coming from the motor spinning. Would it be better for the Agni, from a heating perspective, to leave the timing at neutral position?


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## Jozzer (Mar 29, 2009)

I'd go for about 1mm of advance, maybe a fraction more considering the vehicle weight and resulting current. Agni's need advance in response to more current rather than more speed..

Here's a pic of a cutaway holder and the sanding sticks we use. The square end of the stick is pushed against the armature - this ones getting a bit short, which puts fingers at risk!


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## riwe (Nov 17, 2011)

Jozzer said:


> I'd go for about 1mm of advance, maybe a fraction more considering the vehicle weight and resulting current. Agni's need advance in response to more current rather than more speed..
> 
> Here's a pic of a cutaway holder and the sanding sticks we use. The square end of the stick is pushed against the armature - this ones getting a bit short, which puts fingers at risk!


Ok, just to clarify, does that mean you have 1mm of "space" between the timing marks? Like this:

| <---Timingmark on holder
.<-> 1mm
.......|<---Timingmark on end plate

Thanks again

Rikard


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## Jozzer (Mar 29, 2009)

That sounds right - assuming the timing mark is actually at neutral
With a new holder fitted you should verify this, the marks may no longer be correct..
To do this, connect to a low voltage power source, either one with a dial for "current" or in addition to a DC clamp meter. Spin the motor up and adjust the holder until the lowest possible current is being drawn. Mark this as neutral.
Then, turn the holder AGAINST/INTO the direction of rotation until the marks are 1mm apart. I usually allow 1mm of advance up to around 300A peak, up to 2mm if the motor is to be abused at 400A+ for short periods..

Steve


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## riwe (Nov 17, 2011)

Jozzer said:


> That sounds right - assuming the timing mark is actually at neutral
> With a new holder fitted you should verify this, the marks may no longer be correct..
> To do this, connect to a low voltage power source, either one with a dial for "current" or in addition to a DC clamp meter. Spin the motor up and adjust the holder until the lowest possible current is being drawn. Mark this as neutral.
> Then, turn the holder AGAINST/INTO the direction of rotation until the marks are 1mm apart. I usually allow 1mm of advance up to around 300A peak, up to 2mm if the motor is to be abused at 400A+ for short periods..
> ...


 
Got it!

You are a genius!

R


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## Jozzer (Mar 29, 2009)

riwe said:


> You are a genius!
> R


 Lol, I wish!


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

Jozzer said:


> Unfortionatly, I don't have sanding sticks in stock and am having trouble locating a good source for them - Major, do you know of a company that might sell commutator sticks to order?


A google turned up these:

http://www.goodmart.com/products/pencil-type-resurfacers.htm

http://www.manvillemotor.com/cat/Commutator-Stones-C10912.aspx

But I thought there was an easy place. You have Grainger over on that side of the pond? 

http://www.grainger.com/Grainger/ww...essing+stone&N=0&GlobalSearch=true&sst=subset


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## Jozzer (Mar 29, 2009)

major said:


> A google turned up these:
> 
> http://www.goodmart.com/products/pencil-type-resurfacers.htm
> 
> ...


 Thanks Major. I had written to Grainger but never got a reply.

Rikard, thanks for your order, the brushes will ship today!

Steve


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## riwe (Nov 17, 2011)

Jozzer said:


> Thanks Major. I had written to Grainger but never got a reply.
> 
> Rikard, thanks for your order, the brushes will ship today!
> 
> Steve


Thanks Steve! 

I got in contact with a Swedish company that specializes in DC-motor renovations, www.krama.se, today and the guy I talked to had good knowledge of different types of sanding sticks. Hopefully I'll go and visit the later today. I will ask where they get them and if they work with resellers.

Best regards

Rikard


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## riwe (Nov 17, 2011)

Jozzer said:


> That sounds right - assuming the timing mark is actually at neutral
> With a new holder fitted you should verify this, the marks may no longer be correct..
> To do this, connect to a low voltage power source, either one with a dial for "current" or in addition to a DC clamp meter. Spin the motor up and adjust the holder until the lowest possible current is being drawn. Mark this as neutral.
> Then, turn the holder AGAINST/INTO the direction of rotation until the marks are 1mm apart. I usually allow 1mm of advance up to around 300A peak, up to 2mm if the motor is to be abused at 400A+ for short periods..
> ...


Hi Steve, 

What is the draw back from to much "advance"? 

Best regards

Rikard


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## Jozzer (Mar 29, 2009)

riwe said:


> Hi Steve,
> 
> What is the draw back from to much "advance"?
> 
> ...


 Hi Rikard,

Too much advance will lower optimum efficiency and possibly cause other problems at lower currents. Also worth pointing out that the more advance you use, the less regen current can be allowed (if the motor were to be used a generator you would in fact retard the timing for higher currents).

Kind regards,
Steve


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## riwe (Nov 17, 2011)

Jozzer said:


> Hi Rikard,
> 
> Too much advance will lower optimum efficiency and possibly cause other problems at lower currents. Also worth pointing out that the more advance you use, the less regen current can be allowed (if the motor were to be used a generator you would in fact retard the timing for higher currents).
> 
> ...


Alright! Thanks for the quick answer. I'm back on the road again. I've worked on the timing and I also went from 450A to 300A on the Kelly. By doing this I lost the "kick" but I can still do a 100kmh, it just takes longer to get there 

I've been thinking a lot of different fan installations for cooling and I got a prototype working today. I will post some pics of it on the blog later.

With the fan installed and the new brushes nicely preped I took it for a spin and there was no "smell" and the ohm meter con.ected to the temp sensor stayed above 8kohm even when "burning the iron" as we say in Sweden 

Best regards 

Rikard


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## Salty9 (Jul 13, 2009)

Nice how-to on resurfacing the comm. http://luigi500.blogspot.com/
Have you got the "grin" again?


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## riwe (Nov 17, 2011)

Salty9 said:


> Nice how-to on resurfacing the comm. http://luigi500.blogspot.com/
> Have you got the "grin" again?


 
Thanks!

Trust me, the grin is back!


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## riwe (Nov 17, 2011)

Hi all,

The fiat is running along just fine. I haven't gotten around to test the max range but I made a test yesterday. I drove 41km and then charged the car with a watt-meter connected to the 240v plug on the charger. Full charge was reached after 4.73kw. I calculated with 10% power loss in the charger. So I got 102.8W per kilometer. 

Does it sound about right? 

Best regards

Rikard


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## mora (Nov 11, 2009)

Sounds very efficient. I get around 170Wh/km but my car weighs almost 1000kg.


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## MalcolmB (Jun 10, 2008)

Thanks for the data point Rikard. Sounds good to me. I'd guess that was at an average speed around 50 kph?

Your figure is roughly twice what I got for my motorbike, which weighed 200 kg with me aboard.

The high efficiency and low mass of the Agni motor obviously help to minimise energy use, so it'll be interesting to see how my relatively heavyweight mini performs by comparison.


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## tomofreno (Mar 3, 2009)

riwe said:


> Hi all,
> 
> The fiat is running along just fine. I haven't gotten around to test the max range but I made a test yesterday. I drove 41km and then charged the car with a watt-meter connected to the 240v plug on the charger. Full charge was reached after 4.73kw. I calculated with 10% power loss in the charger. So I got 102.8W per kilometer.
> 
> ...


Sounds reasonable. I get about 180 Wh/mile, or 108Wh/km if just driving around town at 30 - 40 mph (50 - 67 kph), in my 1030 kg car - not including charger losses. (http://www.evalbum.com/3060)


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## riwe (Nov 17, 2011)

*Luigi made the news!*

My conversion is now featured in Sweden’s biggest news paper, almost a full page in the motor section. The article describes the car and also addresses the fact that it is today impossible to get it classified as a "green car". Hopefully this article will inspire others to start similar projects

It has not been published on DN.se yet but I hope it will be.

I posted 2 pictures of it on the blogg: http://luigi500.blogspot.se/

Best regards


Rikard


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## MalcolmB (Jun 10, 2008)

Well done Rikard! How did you manage to coverage in Dagens Nyheter? I'll keep an eye out for the article, I'd like to read it.


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## riwe (Nov 17, 2011)

MalcolmB said:


> Well done Rikard! How did you manage to coverage in Dagens Nyheter? I'll keep an eye out for the article, I'd like to read it.


Thank you Malcolm!

I sent them an email earlier this autumn describing what I've done and so on. They liked it and wanted to do a piece about it. 

I not sure that the article will get on the web, DN.se, so I made a PDF for you to download from dropbox: https://www.dropbox.com/sh/2xqmwq24gduwb4u/X9gM_IMNum?m

Best regards

Rikard


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## MalcolmB (Jun 10, 2008)

Thanks, that's a really nice write-up. Good luck with getting your Fiat classed as a zero-emission vehicle. What's this about building a boat next? (in the caption).


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## riwe (Nov 17, 2011)

MalcolmB said:


> Thanks, that's a really nice write-up. Good luck with getting your Fiat classed as a zero-emission vehicle. What's this about building a boat next? (in the caption).


Thank you! 

I’m hoping it will spark up a discussion about it. There is a 4000 Euro “bonus” of the price if you buy a plug-in hybrid or 100% electric car in Sweden today but that’s all. I want to ride the bus lane, get free parking, no road tax and so on.

Imagine what would happened if you got 4000 Euro as a conversion bonus J 


We will see what happens.

Ooh the boat thing, J That is actually the project that first got me into the conversion business. I’ve been working for a couple of years on it. It’s a hybrid-drive like no other, for small displacement boats. 

I can’t give you the details right now because of the patent process, but I assure you that you will like it J Check out www.greenlandhybrid.com that’s the project name I use and you will get conceptual info about it there.

I’ll keep you posted!

Best regards

Rikard


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## MalcolmB (Jun 10, 2008)

riwe said:


> There is a 4000 Euro “bonus” of the price if you buy a plug-in hybrid or 100% electric car in Sweden today but that’s all. I want to ride the bus lane, get free parking, no road tax and so on.


Right, now I understand why you're so keen to get your car classed as "green". Yes, we have a similar subsidy here in the UK, but it's actually over 6000 euro on a new car. It would be great to get something similar for DIY conversions, but I can't really see it happening here. Still, you don't get if you don't ask.

The hybrid boat drive sounds interesting and you're definitely in the right marketplace to sell it.


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## riwe (Nov 17, 2011)

MalcolmB said:


> Right, now I understand why you're so keen to get your car classed as "green". Yes, we have a similar subsidy here in the UK, but it's actually over 6000 euro on a new car. It would be great to get something similar for DIY conversions, but I can't really see it happening here. Still, you don't get if you don't ask.
> 
> The hybrid boat drive sounds interesting and you're definitely in the right marketplace to sell it.


Well I won’t get any money if I get it classed but we should of course have a system that stimulates conversions, after all it’s 2012.

The ocean is where my heart is, as you might know the Baltic sea is suffering. The "most dead" ocean in the world. This summer dead bottoms were sited at 15 meters depth. I got to do something. 

Yanmar, Volvo Penta won’t do anything. Dig this, a month ago I got my hands on a marine magazine talking about the latest and greatest in the marine engine market. They had catalysts and variable cam shafts!!! WTF they have been on the market for yeeeeears! Pisses me off.

Well anyways, I’m off to change that J

Best regards

Rikard


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## MalcolmB (Jun 10, 2008)

riwe said:


> The ocean is where my heart is, as you might know the Baltic sea is suffering. The "most dead" ocean in the world. This summer dead bottoms were sited at 15 meters depth. I got to do something.


Yes, I do regular work for AirClim and ChemSec, so I know a little about the problems. It's frustrating how slow things are to change when the evidence has been there for so long. Good luck with your mission!


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## z_power (Dec 17, 2011)

Rikard,
Greetings from southern shore of Baltic, I'm spending a few month in Stegna near Gdansk. If you ever need FIAT parts from 2-cyl. models we have a very good supply here - 126 was produced in Poland till year 2000 
Good Luck
Mike


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## riwe (Nov 17, 2011)

Hey!

Now also on the web: http://www.dn.se/motor/supermiljobil---fran-1973

Sorry but it is in Swedish!

Best regards

Rikard


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## MalcolmB (Jun 10, 2008)

I was curious about the Swedish definition of ultra-low-emission cars and came across this: http://www.miljofordon.se/fordon/vad-ar-miljobil

In addition to having CO2 emissions of less than 50 gram it says they have to be type-approved in Sweden. Does that mean your conversion would have to go through the type approval process to qualify?


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## riwe (Nov 17, 2011)

MalcolmB said:


> I was curious about the Swedish definition of ultra-low-emission cars and came across this: http://www.miljofordon.se/fordon/vad-ar-miljobil
> 
> In addition to having CO2 emissions of less than 50 gram it says they have to be type-approved in Sweden. Does that mean your conversion would have to go through the type approval process to qualify?


It is not possible to get an old car or a “homemade” car approved as far as I know. This is from transportstyrelsen: http://www.transportstyrelsen.se/sv...till-Transportstyrelsen/Supermiljobilspremie/
 “Transportstyrelsen har en förteckning över de typer av bilar som uppfyller utsläppskraven och som hittills registrerats i vägtrafikregistret. De bilmodeller som hittills har uppfyllt kraven är dessa:

Citroën C-Zero
Chevrolet Volt
Mitsubishi i-MiEv
Nissan Leaf
Opel Ampera
Peugeot ION
Tesla Roadster
Toyota Prius Plug-In Hybrid
Volvo C30 Electric
Avsikten är att vi ska uppdatera förteckningen i samband med registrering av varje ny typ av supermiljöbil, eftersom vi först i samband med registreringen kan säkerställa att kraven är uppfyllda.
För bilmodeller som ännu inte registrerats i vägtrafikregistret hänvisar vi till generalagenter och återförsäljare för mer information om vilka supermiljöbilar de tillhandahåller.”


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## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

That is a beautiful little car. You can be proud of it. 

miz


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## riwe (Nov 17, 2011)

Hey EV-lovers!

It’s been a long winter here is Stockholm but it´s finally over. I haven’t been working that much in the Fiat, a new floor pan for lowering drag and a new battery gauge has been installed. 
I wanted to get a better view of the energy flowing through the system so I changed my paktrakr for a E-Xpert HV. What I loose is the individual monitoring of each 12v block, what I gain is the possibility to track amp-hours (ah) going in and out of the battery. 
I have a 90ah, 76,8v pack. So my total energy is about 6912 Watt. I ran a test today to see how far I would get using 80% of battery capacity (72ah). The test run included both highway, about 80Km/h, and city driving. Traffic in central Stockholm was horrible with a lot of stop & go. 
The Xpert uses a shunt to monitor the Ah that flows through the circuit. Removing energy from the pack is symbolized by the minus sign on the display below. When the pack is fully charged the meter show 0.0 Ah and as I start to drive the negative value increases. Basically what I did was to drive one way until I reached 50% SOC and then turned around. 
So I’ve used about 5530W (80% of my total 6912) to drive 52 km. And I still have 20% more in the battery before it is all empty. That 106 watt per kilometer, mixed driving. Now that’s impressive. 
I put some pictures and diagrams on the blog, luigi500.blogspot.com check it out!¨
One love!

Rikard


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## scooby555 (Apr 26, 2013)

Hello rikard, 

very nice job done , i'm seeing what i can learn from your conversion to get started on mine 

I often visit denmark , so maybe i need to come and see  well if u are ok with that just pm me .

My project will be build on a buggy , cause its lightweight and cause of legislation , ( roadlegal without hassle of yearly technical checks )
i'm using a PGO 500 bugracer , bought it allready , so time to go to work.

I do have a few questions if u want to answer these please do so .

The motor is expensive .......are there alternatives ?
How satisfied are u with the Kelly controller ?
How good is regenarative braking ?
I actually want to design a capacitor bank which sill store the regenerated energy and then this is used at first accelaration.
Cause i dont believe batteries are very efficient at changing cycles , again this is belief not nowledge......

Anyway looks great


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## jeremyjs (Sep 22, 2010)

scooby555 said:


> Hello rikard,
> I actually want to design a capacitor bank which sill store the regenerated energy and then this is used at first accelaration.
> Cause i dont believe batteries are very efficient at changing cycles , again this is belief not nowledge......
> 
> Anyway looks great


Lead acid isn't. These prismatic LIFEPO4 cells are. They can take huge currents, for brief periods, without a problem. You'll loose more to the greater mass of the capacitor bank, than you're likely to gain by adding them.


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## scooby555 (Apr 26, 2013)

I dont know , when u brake u generate a voltage and a current , and the cells suddenly need tio reverse the chemical process......this also takes time so the question is when u drive 30km/u and need to stop ( typical city light to light driving ) can the battery really recover something ? i dont believe the braking can be entirely with the motor , the brakes will also be used ..........

the capacitor bank INSTANTLY charges , and u need to have several capacitors to charge........

The quesion is chemistry , anyone have an answer how efficient this is ? and how much time a battery needs for that , and the only bnatteries that matter are the LiFeYp04 types as thats whats currently the benchmark.


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## Salty9 (Jul 13, 2009)

Rikard,

Just read your blog. The refinishing of your commutator was elegant. Very neat.


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## jeremyjs (Sep 22, 2010)

scooby555 said:


> I dont know , when u brake u generate a voltage and a current , and the cells suddenly need tio reverse the chemical process......this also takes time so the question is when u drive 30km/u and need to stop ( typical city light to light driving ) can the battery really recover something ? i dont believe the braking can be entirely with the motor , the brakes will also be used ..........
> 
> the capacitor bank INSTANTLY charges , and u need to have several capacitors to charge........
> 
> The quesion is chemistry , anyone have an answer how efficient this is ? and how much time a battery needs for that , and the only bnatteries that matter are the LiFeYp04 types as thats whats currently the benchmark.


Almost all lithium ion batteries are 90+% efficient. It seems like finding if there would be any utility in a capacitor bank would be pretty easy though. Anyone who has regen, lifepo4 batteries, and a volt meter could tell you. All they should need to do it see if the DC buss goes over the batteries nominal fully charged voltage under full regen. It's very unlikely.


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## scooby555 (Apr 26, 2013)

Hello Rikard , 

beautifull project , very inspiring so time toa sk how is the agni holding up ?

have u had the need to set safer values on the controller ?

also how are the batteries doing

cheers from the south


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## riwe (Nov 17, 2011)

Hi Scooby,

The Agni is just fine. As long as I dont push it beyond 350A it will be ok. 
Batteries are fine as well. My amp meter shows about 250-280A when flooring it and driving over 60mph but the batteries are holding up. 

What are you planning?

Best regards


Rikard


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## scooby555 (Apr 26, 2013)

I started a thread on what I am going ( wanting ) to build , I fololwed your project and read another 200 pages of different projects.....u know how it goes.

I bought a PGO 500 , its a buggy, the idea is to use the CVT and an AGNI style motor , either the LEM 200 ( the one that does 6000RPM ) or a K9 from Kostov. And I havent heard u complain on your KELLY controller , so maybe that one will do.

I got advise against CVT , so I have to think this really good over before i start wrecking the whole thing ( paid 4000 euro for the PGO )
The CVT is probably on the motorblock , was thinking of cutting it out as I believe a CVT is excellent....but I dont know....

Like your design , its light , and suppose to be efficient
I can install a windshield and maybe some doors later

How did u get yours street legal ? 

cheers and thx for your time


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## riwe (Nov 17, 2011)

Ok good! I will look into it. Yes there is alot of background info to read but I Think that was fun. You learn so much more than just volts and amps. 

I guess the downside of CVT is the slip at lower RPM's. Try and get some efficiency figures on the CVT that you use. If you are planning for full throttle offroad madness then the CVT will probably work just fine 

What is the estimated weight of your car? My fiat is about 500-600Kg and that would be maximum for the agni 95R. I know the have made a new, stronger version of the agni that might be a better choise.

My kelly works great. I use two cooling fans and I only use half the capacity.

One of the benefits of having a fiat 500 is that everyone loves the car. The Fiat was able to charm the inspection people, thats how I got it street legal 

No worries!

Rikard


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## scooby555 (Apr 26, 2013)

hello rikard,

Well the PGO 500 weighs 350kg as is with its ice .
so i think weight wise its fine.

the cvt from what i read about, should be possible to adjust its biting point. its centrifugal and so its adjustable if u change the weights that do the locking.

i think its quite good efficiency wise , i expect it to be better then a clutch - gearbox. but again i dont know ......

the other option i have is sell this pgo 500 and buy a ford fiesta and do the conversion on that.......but then again pfffff

do u use your car a lot ? how many km since u finished it ?

cheers
benny


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## riwe (Nov 17, 2011)

350Kg sounds great! 

If you want to go brushless I would reccomend you have a go at the new motors from motenergy. Watercooled PMAC's 48 to 72V. 16Kg and capable of pushing over 10kW continous if water cooled. 

more info here: http://www.e-kart.fr/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=858&Itemid=2

You are right! If you can decide when it should bite and if you are able to minimize slip, it should be efficient. Fewer Components usualy gives you better efficiency. 

Fiesta or GPO, that depends on what you are planning to use it for. The fiesta i much heavier and you would need a different drivtrain for that. 

The GPO with a Agni or a Motenergy is a big boy toy to play with 

I dont get to drive my car as much as I want. I live in Stockholm and a the cost of a garage is WAY to much. I keep it at my workshop and thats a 45 minute ride ju to get there. 

I Think I have about 200Km on the car. Last time I was out driving the hood opened in 70km/h, that was not a nice experience and I need to get a new hood  

Hopefully I will be able to drive it more next year. It is really a nice car to drive. 

Rikard


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## tylerwatts (Feb 9, 2012)

I'll post in Benny's thread, but you don't need the clutch to use the cvt! And the cvt is great for higher rpm efficient motors, less current and more volts used for the same power output so it is more efficient.


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

tylerwatts said:


> And the cvt is great for higher rpm efficient motors, less current and more volts used for the same power output so it is more efficient.


Your opinion, not fact. My opinion: CVTs are a poor match for electric motors.


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## scooby555 (Apr 26, 2013)

Well all opinions are appreciated , many thx guys 

also great for the mini watercooled motor tip  

its really very unknown terrain for me , and i do have an electronics engeering background but mechanics are not yet my thing.

I'll look into all , do more background work and well then decisions will have to be made and money spend 

And now lets look at my own tread carefully


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## tylerwatts (Feb 9, 2012)

Apologies Major, yes this is my opinion. And of course if you design for certain parameters they should work so there are situations where either could be the case, CVT may be rubbish in a car conversion but a light weight buggy I feel benefits from one. I'll take my views to Benny's thread though, sorry Rikard!


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## scooby555 (Apr 26, 2013)

lets see if i get this right , the clutch seems to be the problem as for ev no clutch is really necessary.....the fact it slips seems to be a waste of energy and the fact the engine then is revving uselessly for a small while is also a waste .

so direct coupling on the cvt is preferred ?

direct coupling on a cvt mmm can be done it seems to me , will have to take it a part to see but ok why not

as for the cvt itself , i have to see what makes it select its gearing but it can be set for the best effiency on the motor RPM ? thats the whole purpose of cvt

also like the watercooled motor , can be used to heat the water for some heating ( which in a buggy  is a hot point )


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## tylerwatts (Feb 9, 2012)

Won't give enough heat unless you are really running too much current through the motor. 
The CVT chooses it's gearing proportional to the rpm of the output (wheel speed) and is a function of the weights in the rollers. The scooter boys on endless-sphere forum have modified the weights to suit 5kw permanent magnet AC motors really well. Have a look on google.


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