# Re: [EVDL] Any experience with Kelly KDH High Voltage controllers?



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Any experience with Kelly KDH High Voltage controllers?*

200A and 300A controllers are way overkill for that motor.

I actually have a few working prototypes that run the crystalyte wheel
motors very well - it was a learning project toward designing a controller
for larger PMSM motors.

What I have is a relatively compact 40A controller, but it is designed like
a larger controller. It has hall effect current sensors to measure motor
phase currents. Control is via a DSP - it can drive sinusoidal type motors
(space vector modulation with field oriented control) or trapezoidal type
motors (BLDC) with 6 step commutation. Unlike the crystalyte controller, it
will regen. You do need a motor with hall sensors for commutation - it will
not run sensorless motors.

It is not I commercial product - I don't sell it. But if there is enough
interest we might consider making a commercial product out of it.

Anyone interested?

I can send a few photos and a video of a go-cart running on Crystalyte hub
motors.

Fran




> electroauto.ru wrote:
> > Hello,
> >
> > Is anybody have some experince with Kelly KDH High Voltage controllers,
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Any experience with Kelly KDH High Voltage controllers?*

On Tue, 10 Jun 2008 10:47:51 -0700 (PDT), fsabolich <[email protected]>


> wrote:
> 
> >
> >200A and 300A controllers are way overkill for that motor.
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Any experience with Kelly KDH High Voltage controllers?*

>From what I've seen on their website any of the brushless stuff will work
just fine. Haven't tried any of it. When I had my bike going it was ran by a
x5303 motor and a 35 amp controller. With a good tail wind I could hit 45mph
for 4 miles and then started running out of juice, but with a front wind top
speed was 38mph. This was with carrying 6 18ah SLA batteries too. When I
carried 12 18ah batteries the 40amp fuse would pop every time. This is more
like what you need to carry around to go any useful distance. 13lbs x 12 =
156lbs. 50amps continuous should be plenty of power with maybe 70 amp burst.
The wire that goes into the motor is 12 gauge or maybe 10 gauge, so this is
one limiting factor. So i'd use an amp meter and keep it low as possible. On
a side note on ebay is a 28ah 72V controller for $32, haha . 
http://tinyurl.com/5u6j9f http://tinyurl.com/5u6j9f I paid like almost $250
for a 35ah 72v controller a couple years ago. On my car EV my motor started
wobbling again and found out the outer spline thing that bolts to coupler
had ripped itself apart completely. This piece has the outer spline but the
plate it was welded too if very thin. Took it to a welding shop today. Was
thinking about coating the entire back surface with that black 4 minute
quick setting JB weld to help strengthen it more. What would be better is a
100V controller for these crystalyte motors and this would make the amps
needed even less. 





> kaze0010 wrote:
> >
> > electroauto.ru wrote:
> >> Hello,
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Any experience with Kelly KDH High Voltage controllers?*



> Neon John wrote:
> > On Tue, 10 Jun 2008 10:47:51 -0700 (PDT), fsabolich <[email protected]>
> > wrote:
> >
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Any experience with Kelly KDH High Voltage controllers?*

>Are you talking about driving the Crystalyte Phoenix hubs? They spec out a
40
>amp controller so it sounds like you are.

Yes.

>How about making it an open-source project in addition to kits and A&T
>versions? I need to know a LOT more about AC motor control so I'd love to
dig
>into a working controller's guts, especially the code.

If I designed it on my own time, it already would be open-source. I'd make
the schematic, parts list, gerber files, and source code available. 
However, since I was paid by my employer to develop it, I cannot do that.

However, I can tell you where I started. I decided to design a vector drive
(field oriented control) for driving PMSM motors. BLDC (brushless DC) is
far simpler using 6 step (60 degree) commutation. Information on that is
available all over the web. If you want a full blown vector drive, take a
look at AN908 from Microchip. AN908 is for driving an AC induction motor. 
Driving a PMSM motor is basically the same. Look at the math, there are two
components for current - Iq and Id. Iq is the current responsible for
torque. Id is the current responsible for magnetization of the squirrel
cage in an induction motor. For a permanent magnet motor (PMSM) you simply
set it to zero since the permanent magnets provide the magnetic field. By
driving Id negative, you can perform field weakening and get the motor to
rotate faster at the expense of torque (constant power region).

>Whichever way you decide to go, I'm interested. I have these plans in the
>works for a stealth gimp chair trike that will pass for a powered outdoor
>wheelchair but will do around 50mph. Two Phoenix motors are figuring
>prominently in these plans right now. I ALWAYS want more power. 

I'll talk to my boss and colleagues. The controllers were designed for our
own use, but I'll see what they think about making a product out of it.

BTW, photos and video already sent to your email.

Fran
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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Any experience with Kelly KDH High Voltage controllers?*

I know about the crystalyte controllers (we have a few of them here). I am
completely unimpressed with them.

The Kelly controllers may be a good value for the money and they might be
good too.

What I was asking is if there is an unfilled spot between the crystalyte and
the kelly that is worth filling.

My gut feeling is that there is no gap worth filling, but I may be wrong. 
I'm open to input from other people.

Fran

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Any experience with Kelly KDH High Voltage controllers?*



> fsabolich wrote:
> > I know about the crystalyte controllers (we have a few of them here). I am
> > completely unimpressed with them.
> >
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Any experience with Kelly KDH High Voltage controllers?*

On Wed, 11 Jun 2008 04:04:51 -0700 (PDT), fsabolich <[email protected]>


> wrote:
> 
> >What I was asking is if there is an unfilled spot between the crystalyte and
> >the kelly that is worth filling.
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Any experience with Kelly KDH High Voltage controllers?*

>Are you talking about a BLDC controller or induction motor control?

There is no difference in the hardware - the same controller can run BLDC,
PMSM, and AC induction motors. The only difference is in software. For AC
induction motors, volts/hertz is very simple. If you want a vector drive,
you need to keep track of the magnetic field in the rotor. For this PMSM
and AC induction are very similar. The math breaks the current down into
two vectors - Iq (which is the current that generates the torque that
rotates the motor) and Id (which induces the magnetic field in the squirrel
cage). For a PMSM motor, you basically run the same math as for an AC
induction, you just set Id to zero because you don't need to induce the
magnetic field (you have permanent magnets). If you want to know more,
google "field oriented control". You can also have a look at AN908 from
Microchip, that is where I started. It is actually for AC induction
machines, but it is trivial to convert it to PMSM. BLDC is really very
easy.

There is no reason the same controller cannot drive BLDC, PMSM, and AC
induction. The only thing would be the power stage - low voltage high
current AC induction motors are not common, where as BLDC and PMSM are.

> If BLDC then heck yeah. (snip)

>If the firmware is flexible and/or open source, one could also use any of
the
>bazillions of stepper motors with integral encoders (snip)

A stepper is a different beast. I wouldn't recommend this for a stepper.

Anyways, I'm toying with the idea of making it a product now. I have to
talk to the boss and my colleagues. I know it is very useful for the end
user to have access to and be able to modify the source - it makes for a
much more flexible controller.

>I think that there is also a window for low to moderate HP induction motor
>inverters too. Especially one to drive ordinary inverter-rated industrial
>motors. The combo may not extract the Nth percentage of efficiency but
it'd
>be good enough for many things including accessory drives. If it had a
boost
>feature so that 240 volt 3 phase motors (common as dirt) could be operated
>from say, 120 volt and up packs, more the better.

Operating a high voltage motor from a low voltage supply wouldn't really
work. You'd need some sort of voltage booster before the controller or an
impedance converter.

Fran

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Any experience with Kelly KDH High Voltage controllers?*



> fsabolich wrote:
> > Anyways, I'm toying with the idea of making it a product now. I have to
> > talk to the boss and my colleagues. I know it is very useful for the end
> > user to have access to and be able to modify the source - it makes for a
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Any experience with Kelly KDH High Voltage controllers?*

>A list of Kelly brushless controllers:
>http://www.kellycontroller.com/mot/Brushless-DC-Motor-Controller.html
>
>Looking around further around the Kelly website I found these 
>ebike/scooter specific brushless controllers that are less expensive but 
>still have the main features (looks like the main difference is no J1 
>connector which is used for fault LEDs, power LEDs, and reverse beepers):
>http://www.kellycontroller.com/mot/Ebike-BLDC-controller.html

Thanks for the links. The controller actually look pretty good - and the
price is right too.

Kelly looks to have already filled the niche that I was thinking about. It
is pointless to try and enter that segment. It makes no sense to try to
make a commercial product out of what we have. We will keep it for our own
internal uses.

Fran


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Any experience with Kelly KDH High Voltage controllers?*



> Haudy Kazemi wrote:
> > 1.) Has anyone seen a controller that can store at least two different
> > sets of control parameters and switch between them on-the-fly (or at
> > least by rebooting the controller)? A use case for this feature would
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Any experience with Kelly KDH High Voltage controllers?*



> --- Haudy Kazemi <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> > 1.) Has anyone seen a controller that can store at
> > least two different
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Any experience with Kelly KDH High Voltage controllers?*



> On 13 Jun 2008 at 0:50, Haudy Kazemi wrote:
> 
> > A use case for this feature would be to have a 'turbo' switch, that
> > somewhat de-restricts the regular current or power limits.
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Any experience with Kelly KDH High Voltage controllers?*



> Haudy Kazemi wrote:
> 
> > Has anyone seen a controller that can store at least two different
> > sets of control parameters and switch between them on-the-fly...
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Any experience with Kelly KDH High Voltage controllers?*

I purchased a Kelly KDH 14500 144V/500A series controller some months ago
and finally got around to installing it in my car a few weeks back.
It replaced a Curtis 1231C "squealer". I use the 8" ADC motor.

However to my dismay it would not draw more than 120A when cold and
50A when warm (it quickly got hot). I nearly did not make it home
from my first test drive.

I consulted Kelly support about it and was told that the 500A rating
is motor amps not battery amps. I feel that this is misrepresenting the 
product and I told them so.

In short it is of no use to me and it is now for sale. It would be
suitable for a motor bike.

To their credit Kelly offered me an upgrade for the price difference
when they do produce a suitable substitute for the Curtis. I will
await their progress.

Regards, Rod Dilkes

> Hello, Is anybody have some experince with Kelly KDH High Voltage
controllers,
> especially with the 144V model? Currently I'm looking for a 144V 
> controller, and looks like Kelly
KDH
> provide good combination of price and features.... Regards, Oleg




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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Any experience with Kelly KDH High Voltage controllers?*

Uh, all motor controllers I have heard of mention motor loop current.
The battery current can always reach whatever the motor rating is.

Either you have a high voltage pack so that the current multiplication
is showing the 500A on the battery side (and that is good)
Or
1) the batteries arn't putting out the amps the motor and controller can
take.
1.1) Perhaps the voltage is sagging to a point where the controller
cuts back
1.2) Perhaps it is getting warm and cutting back

2) your are essentially driveing with the brakes on?

The fact that you say 120A cold out and 50A when warm sounds rather
ominous.

What does the motor ampmeter say?


Either way, we need more data. Pack voltage,wire sizes,battery sizes and
type, cooling system, etc.

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Any experience with Kelly KDH High Voltage controllers?*

The KDH controller appears to limit the current to 120A, at least with my
setup, others may differ.
My Curtis will deliver 300A no problem with my current battery, motor and
cabling (and brakes).

Steven from Kelly Controller support did get back to me quickly and has
informed that a suitable Curtis 1231C substitute is about 3-4 weeks away.
That makes it mid-end July.

I look forward to being able to give a positive report then.

Regards, Rod
www.ev-power.com.au




> Jeff Shanab wrote:
> >
> > Uh, all motor controllers I have heard of mention motor loop current.
> > The battery current can always reach whatever the motor rating is.
> ...


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