# can A123 AMP20M1HD-A cells be charged with 4C?



## frodus (Apr 12, 2008)

can you source these?


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## miernik (Nov 28, 2009)

frodus said:


> can you source these?


I am planning to buy some here:

http://www.a123rc.com/goods-468-Excitingly+Powerful+A+123+PRISMATIC+CELLS.html

Does anyone know if this shop is trustworthy?


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## jeremyjs (Sep 22, 2010)

I don't know, but if they are they're about to get a lot of business. People have been looking for a legit source for these things for a long while.


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## Harold in CR (Sep 8, 2008)

Just a few days ago, these were priced at $41.00, nearly. Now $51.00, nearly ???

Couple of guys at ES Forums have ordered a couple for samples, and had confirmation.


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## frodus (Apr 12, 2008)

They've had ORDERS confirmed, but no one has seen anything yet, from what I can tell. I've been following this closely.

I'd be careful, wait for someone else to jump first.


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## miernik (Nov 28, 2009)

jeremyjs said:


> I don't know, but if they are they're about to get a lot of business. People have been looking for a legit source for these things for a long while.


Well, this German shop has them too: http://shop.lipopower.de/A123-Systems-AMP20M1HD-A-20Ah-Folienzelle  but at more then twice the price. They even offer "selected" cells by internal resistance measurement for a little extra money. But nowhere it is written what the internal resistance actually is, and what is the threshold for a cell in the more expensive "selected cell".


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## jeremyjs (Sep 22, 2010)

The the only thing that seems weird is that these things are made here in Michigan. Why can't you buy them from a US based distributor if A123 is finally allowing their sale to the general public?


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## miernik (Nov 28, 2009)

jeremyjs said:


> The the only thing that seems weird is that these things are made here in Michigan. Why can't you buy them from a US based distributor if A123 is finally allowing their sale to the general public?


This suggests they are made in Guangdong, China (Mainland):

http://www.alibaba.com/product-gs/427559098/A123_20Ah_Lithium_Ion_Cell.html

Maybe they produce them also in Guangdong, so the ones found in these shops are from a Chinese factory.


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## jeremyjs (Sep 22, 2010)

As far as I know A123 doesn't produce any of their batteries in China. I think there's a plant in Taiwan that produces primarily cylindrical cells and they may have a small pilot plant in it where they developed the prismatic cells, but the production prismatics are nearly all made at the plant in Michigan, and if they're finally producing enough to start selling them to retailers that's probably where they came from.

The plant in Michigan has a production capacity of 600MW a year and primarily makes the prismatics. The plant in Taiwan has a 160MW capacity and primarily produces cylindrical cells. It would made sense though if they are finally selling them to people though; since the Michigan plant should be near full production according the to the information they released on that plants scheduled ramp up.

Oh and if you are still wondering about the max continuous charge current ask around on endless sphere. Different people there bought a pallets worth of cells that cellman was able to get though back channels and as far as I know they are genuine; because a bunch of people put them through their paces.


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## LiFe (May 24, 2010)

If you carefully examine the site, it's all [email protected]

Stock images for everything. Likely cobbled up in a Guangzhou closet. 
Wait for an email reply, check the headers for the origin.

Nothing more, nothing less. Amusing either way. One or two sample parts might be shipped, check the date code!
Any volume purchase will require a bank wire or Western union 
We love you long time roundeye.

I can assure you there is no involvement with A123Systems Inc.


Their skidmarks can be seen, although it's normally masked from public view:

Domain Name: A123RC.COM
Registrar: WILD WEST DOMAINS, INC.
Whois Server: whois.wildwestdomains.com
Referral URL: http://www.wildwestdomains.com
Name Server: NS25.DOMAINCONTROL.COM
Name Server: NS26.DOMAINCONTROL.COM
Status: clientDeleteProhibited
Status: clientRenewProhibited
Status: clientTransferProhibited
Status: clientUpdateProhibited
Updated Date: 10-mar-2010
Creation Date: 10-mar-2010
Expiration Date: 10-mar-2020


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## miernik (Nov 28, 2009)

LiFe said:


> Stock images for everything. Likely cobbled up in a Guangzhou closet.
> Wait for an email reply, check the headers for the origin.


Nevertheless I ordered one, will report if I get anything. Anybody else here ordered anything from that shop and got something?


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## steven4601 (Nov 11, 2010)

Crosses fingers, hope it works out!

This would surely be interresting for my EV.


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## miernik (Nov 28, 2009)

jeremyjs said:


> As far as I know A123 doesn't produce any of their batteries in China. I think there's a plant in Taiwan that produces primarily cylindrical cells and they may have a small pilot plant in it where they developed the prismatic cells, but the production prismatics are nearly all made at the plant in Michigan, and if they're finally producing enough to start selling them to retailers that's probably where they came from.


What about this: 










Image from http://www.myjidian.com/offerdetail/2010150.html


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## wakinyantanka (Apr 8, 2008)

miernik said:


> What about this:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I've been following this myself and have sent out several emails to confirm if they are legit. It seems at the moment they are, offering paypal is very encouraging. If it turns out to be true I'd organizing a group buy. For anyone interested I may have also sourced the ahr32157 10AH cells as well.


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## steven4601 (Nov 11, 2010)

When, How much ?

Id like to participate in a group buy, but first id like to buy 10 samples or so to see whether it fits expectations.


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## frodus (Apr 12, 2008)

If I can get a sample (I can buy one), I can throw it on my CBA-II and CC400 discharger to test anything from 0 to about 8C. Its not high discharge, but it'l give a good solid constant current discharge current and temperature.

I'm interested to see if these are legit.


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## wakinyantanka (Apr 8, 2008)

I did get confirmation that these are a legitimate 20ah a123 cells. I've heard back from one of the people I emailed and they are quoting in quantities of 500 at $43/cell + shipping to my business address. I still am waiting on the other quotes.


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## jeremyjs (Sep 22, 2010)

miernik said:


> What about this:
> 
> 
> 
> Image from http://www.myjidian.com/offerdetail/2010150.html


Did some searching. Apparently they do have a plant in Korea. For some reason I was thinking Taiwan.


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## wakinyantanka (Apr 8, 2008)

wakinyantanka said:


> I did get confirmation that these are a legitimate 20ah a123 cells. I've heard back from one of the people I emailed and they are quoting in quantities of 500 at $43/cell + shipping to my business address. I still am waiting on the other quotes.


Nothing new to report. Apparently there is a holiday in China right now,(Tomb Sweeping), so I'm waiting for that to end. Several of the emails I sent came back with that response.
Has anyone else found anything?


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## webfootguy (Sep 11, 2007)

I ordered a couple for testing and I now have a shipping number. Looks like this might be legit. I'll post pictures when I get the cells.


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## wakinyantanka (Apr 8, 2008)

webfootguy said:


> I ordered a couple for testing and I now have a shipping number. Looks like this might be legit. I'll post pictures when I get the cells.


Nice.  Perhaps we should start a new thread so as not to hijack this one. I believe it started with a question about charging these at 4C. If these are genuine A123 cells they can be charged at a much higher rate than that. I will find that out and post it.


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## miernik (Nov 28, 2009)

wakinyantanka said:


> Nice.  Perhaps we should start a new thread so as not to hijack this one. I believe it started with a question about charging these at 4C. If these are genuine A123 cells they can be charged at a much higher rate than that. I will find that out and post it.


Much higher then 4C? Well... perhaps I should define what I meant by "can".

I did not mean "can" in the sense like in the joke: "All mushrooms are edible, only some of them only once."

By "can" I meant "can the A123 AMP20 pouch cells be charged with 4C without significantly decreasing their cycle life?". I mean without decreasing their cycle life more badly then A123 26650s and 18650s.

Aren't pouch cells more fragile and have a lower cycle life then cylindrical cells? For example this quote makes me worried:

"Li-Ion cells expand at high levels of state of charge (SOC); if uncontained, this may result in delamination, and reduction of reliability and cycle life; the case of cylindrical cells provides that containment, while pouch cells, by themselves, are not contained. Therefore, to achieve the rated performance, a battery composed of pouch cells must include an overall, strong, external casing to retain its shape."


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## rwaudio (May 22, 2008)

miernik said:


> Much higher then 4C? Well... perhaps I should define what I meant by "can".
> 
> I did not mean "can" in the sense like in the joke: "All mushrooms are edible, only some of them only once."
> 
> ...


I could be wrong but a good portion of that expansion comes from heating, and heating comes from fairly high internal impedance. A123 is known for having the lowest IR which is why they can put out the current, they also don't get as hot. I'm sure that for long term use these pouches should be contained and clamped just like they are shown in the A123 made battery packs made from these pouches. However I don't see why they would have lower cycle life if assembled correctly, so I would agree with the quote saying that the cells should be contained in some manor. Look at the packs that crodriver built, as well as what's in the white zombie for example.


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## wakinyantanka (Apr 8, 2008)

wakinyantanka said:


> Nice.  Perhaps we should start a new thread so as not to hijack this one. I believe it started with a question about charging these at 4C. If these are genuine A123 cells they can be charged at a much higher rate than that. I will find that out and post it.


Opened my mouth to soon. A123 cells have a fast charge at 4c. I suppose you could pulse charge them higher but I would imagine you would shorten the life expectancy. It should be noted that it doesn't matter what type of A123 cell, prismatic or cylindrical the "C" ratings are the same.
Just a little math though, 4C with an 80ah pack at 144v is 46kw. I don't know of a charger capable of that. If it exists I'd certainly like to see it.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

wakinyantanka said:


> Apparently there is a holiday in China right now,(Tomb Sweeping), so I'm waiting for that to end.


When isn't there a holiday in China? The are the most holiday taking mo-fo's I've ever seen!


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