# $1800 Lithium batteries?



## armory (Dec 27, 2008)

http://faq.e-vconcepts.com/

Just found this site from Charlotte, NC. The guy says they no longer use LA because they have found Chinese Lithium batteries for the same price. Can someone make any sense of this? He also only charges $1000-$3000 for labor to " Remove all unneeded components from the vehicle and install all electrical components." Something is fishy.


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## Technologic (Jul 20, 2008)

armory said:


> http://faq.e-vconcepts.com/
> 
> Just found this site from Charlotte, NC. The guy says they no longer use LA because they have found Chinese Lithium batteries for the same price. Can someone make any sense of this? He also only charges $1000-$3000 for labor to " Remove all unneeded components from the vehicle and install all electrical components." Something is fishy.


$1800 is a bit cheap... for any decent range anyway.

I live in Charlotte NC btw  but that guy isn't me


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## Harold in CR (Sep 8, 2008)

Here is a factory-company, offering 100Mah TO 500AH at 25C continuous discharge
Lithium. I'm on dial-up, so, if anyone is interested in contacting them ?
Southriver Products LTD in China
Offers for visits to view factory Samples available Seems to be legit ?? Since 1999


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## GTWCMT (Jan 22, 2009)

I will think that you will find he is a business man using marketing tactics.

Motor $1000

you turn up and her will say, oh sorry that was for a smaller car, the motor needed for your car is $2500

And yeah there are LOADS of battery companies springing up becuase litho batteries are actually cheap to make and the machines required are fairly small.
5Kg of Lith makes 2000 battery cells. each battery only takes a few minutes to make the controler cards made near the same place for a few cents, cheap labour. and there you go a cheap lith battery.

you want to be looking for Lith Coba batts anyway much better range and discharge.

if I could get 24 6 volt 400Ah batts for $1800 I would have them right away $75 a battery!


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## GTWCMT (Jan 22, 2009)

The person on dial up - see this page should be fine for your speed
http://www.southriverproducts.com/products/proshow.asp?ID=521&MaxID=74

no pricing though


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## Harold in CR (Sep 8, 2008)

Posted that so maybe someone that has contacted Chinese companies, could contact them, and know what they are all talking about. I'm not familiar with Lithium batteries. 

There was a post about looking for some large Ahr lithiums being hard to source.


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## GTWCMT (Jan 22, 2009)

Harold in CR said:


> Posted that so maybe someone that has contacted Chinese companies, could contact them, and know what they are all talking about. I'm not familiar with Lithium batteries.
> 
> There was a post about looking for some large Ahr lithiums being hard to source.


There doens seem to be that many around, you can find some. but they are very limited, I found some in china that met the requirements (googled 12 volt 400 ah battery)

A company here in the UK called green motor sport have these batteries, They appeal becuase of the charge time (10 minute)
http://www.greenmotorsport.com/green_motorsport/products_and_services/3,1,388,17,716.html
 " 55AH monobloc type GMS LiFe BATTERY, lightweight and robust using *6 copper battery terminals* per battery for unparalleled low resistance performance for high discharge of over 1000 AMPS continuous for 15 secs. 3000 AMP for 2 Secs. Fast recharge time using 50 amp charger in 64 mins / using micro-processor controlled charging systems. "

Price tag is questionable!!! - Video http://uk.youtube.com/profile?user=greenmotorsport


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## Harold in CR (Sep 8, 2008)

> They appeal becuase of the charge time (10 minute)


 I have worked most of my life with Electricity. 

I just can't see how a battery bank of 10Kwh can be charged so fast. Can you figure the amount of amps per MINUTE, and the size of the cables needed to transfer that power. What about the size of the charger, itself ???

I'm sorry, I just don't see it. Reminds me of striking an arc with a welder ???


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## Zemmo (Sep 13, 2007)

Thats just it, you need a power substation to have that much power available to be able to do anything like that. You wouldn't be able to do that at home. I don't know why places brag about how fast their batteries can take a charge when there isn't any place that could handle that.


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## CNCRouterman (May 5, 2008)

Ok, if lithium is so cheap, and the batteries are so cheap to make, why do they cost so much? 

If the equipment is inexpensive to buy, and the raw material is cheap and readily available, I would expect battery makers to pop up all over the world, not just in China.

So... could someone expound upon the manufacturing requirements a bit for me?

Thanks


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## rmay635703 (Oct 23, 2008)

Zemmo said:


> Thats just it, you need a power substation to have that much power available to be able to do anything like that. You wouldn't be able to do that at home. I don't know why places brag about how fast their batteries can take a charge when there isn't any place that could handle that.


That isn't entirely true, you can build a battery dump station at home but the question becomes why?

For the same electric vehicle you still have a charger to charge your at home stationary pack but instead of one string of batteries to maintain you have 2.x packs.

You might as well just buy 2 strings and change out packs charging at home.

Something that confuses me



> Any mode of transportation can use electric propulsion instead of the ICE original equipment it came with. Lead acid batteries were the most common. Now we have light weight lithium for the same cost and energy density.


So are we to believe the cheap lithium have the same energy density as lead?


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## GTWCMT (Jan 22, 2009)

Well, it just so happens that for the past year or so, we ended up going into a resession or economic decline. thats becuase business have been milking money out of people and then the credit that these people paid for things has dried up.
Other countries who havent gone mad with credit - normaly due to the population being poorer than other places. - Business lession - Always charge what the market will hold.

Yes it does present a problem with charging that quick, I think that you could only get near that with 3 phase. But then reading up on the EESstor which can hold more charge, hwoever need a special charger to be ableto charge the battery at its full rate.

As doe showing the machines.. I can do better, here is the video:
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=MqywKcJ0J2M

And to say some time here is a wiki link to the EEStor
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EEStor


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## ElectriCar (Jun 15, 2008)

150A at 240V, the standard residential voltage in the US and you have 18kw in 30 minutes. Your 2/0 cable is able to handle that easily. However most residential systems are 200A max at 240V. You'd have to not run the dryer, stove, heating and AC, water heat etc while it charged.

However, for a nominal fee, my company could upgrade your service to 300A to accommodate your needs. Then you could charge at 200A and "download" 24kw in 30 minutes with juice to spare! Your local electrical contractor can handle this, probably looking at a buck and a half at a minimum though probably more like 2 grand. I'm just guessing as I'm not sure of the price of the materials.


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## Harold in CR (Sep 8, 2008)

Not to start a pissing contest, but, my point is, you are still trying to stuff that 150 amps into a mechanical object in 10 minutes. 150 amps is one helluva lot of electricity, that has to be absorbed by a non moving object. ??? Don't see how it can shove a full load in, then just stop, and have the cells all be fully charged ??? Isn't there fluid inside these cells, that will swell from the heat from that 150 Amps, and, it has to take full charge, all in 10 minutes ???

I'm not a scientist or engineer, just played with high voltage-high amperage for many years.


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## ElectriCar (Jun 15, 2008)

I'm sure it depends on the internal resistance of the batteries as to how much you can cram into it. Think of a dead car battery. When you put it on a fast charger, you can put 40 or 50 amps into it. So if you have parallel batteries as you do in lithium packs you could surely do it. If you can draw 450A out of a golf cart battery why could you not put 150 in? I'm asking as I don't know but I fail to see why you're in disbelief that it can be done? My charger pulls 30A at 240V continuously. I suspect it would accept a lot more if I had a hefty enough charger.


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## GKnightBC (Sep 10, 2008)

Just a question with regards to pricing all this stuff. Why do people quote prices per Amp-hr as opposed to Watt-hr? I mean, isn't the Amp hour rating a bit relative to the voltage in the battery? I would think that using Watt hours makes more sense, IMO. As always, I could be wrong (and often am, according to my wife).


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## Harold in CR (Sep 8, 2008)

You are correct Electricar, but, That 30-40 amps is a long ways from 150.

To get a 15KWhr charge in a battery bank, in 10 minutes, what will it take to achieve this, figuring the 80% DOD ??? Maybe I'm confusing amps with KWH ???


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## GTWCMT (Jan 22, 2009)

I would have thought that the plates would buckle and the cycle time would be very low if your are dumping that much power into it. I guess much depends on the compounds and plate spacing??


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## ElectriCar (Jun 15, 2008)

Harold in CR said:


> You are correct Electricar, but, That 30-40 amps is a long ways from 150.
> 
> To get a 15KWhr charge in a battery bank, in 10 minutes, what will it take to achieve this, figuring the 80% DOD ??? Maybe I'm confusing amps with KWH ???


15kwh = 15kw for one hour. So if you input 30kw you get half of that in 30 minutes. Does that explain it??? 30kw at 240VAC would be 131A if you add 5% for inefficiency in the charger.


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