# Zivan or Delta-Q or a different one?



## dimitri (May 16, 2008)

Why are you using 135V in calculations when you plan for 96V pack?


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## meanderingthemaze (Jan 25, 2010)

Perhaps I'm doing it incorrectly but, doesn't the charger have to have a voltage higher than 96V to put energy back into the pack, something like acceptance voltage? The final charged voltage for a 96V lead acid pack I've been told can vary between 115V to 126V. The specs on the Delta-Q charger give a max output voltage DC of 135V with a current draw of 9A. Check out the link I posted to see the spec sheet. Perhaps you can help me clear up any confusion.

Thanks


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## TheSGC (Nov 15, 2007)

I have a 96 volts pack of US 8VGC XC and I charge up to 115.4 volts and I do the occasional 126 volt equalize, which I have only done once so far. 

All you need is a charger rated to charge a 96 volt pack and if it's smart, it will do all the temperature adjustments and shut off when done. I have an old skool K&W BC-20 that does temperature compensation but I have to unplug when done, its doesn't have an off switch.


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## ewdysar (Jun 15, 2010)

So just saying "lead acid" isn't really enough information. First off, there are multiple cells in a lead acid battery, 1 cell for each 2V nominal voltage. So 6V batteries are 3 cells, 8V are 4 cells, 12V are 6 cells, etc. Therefore, a 96V pack is made of 48 cells. Charging profiles are often described in terms of voltage per cell. Flooded (FLA) batteries have peak charging voltages of 2.5V/cell. AGM batteries have peak charging voltages of 2.4V per cell. So if your pack is FLA, then your peak charging voltage should be 120V. If your pack is AGM, then your peak charging voltage should be 115.2V.

According to the Delta-Q info, the max current is 9A regardless of the voltage, so your max charger output is 1080W for FLA and 1037W for AGM. 

For the Zivan, if the max current is 22A at 120VDC, then the charger will be pulling noticably more more than 22A of 120VAC, which will trip your typical 15 or 20A household circuits. Chances are that 22A @ 120VDC (2640W) output is for 230VAC and they state that the maximum draw is 20A @ 230VAC which doesn't point to a particularly high efficiency. Running that efficiency factor back to 120VAC on a 15A circuit, the maximum output looks like it's about 10A or 1200W.

So what does that mean to you? The Delta-Q is more efficient and uses less energy from your utility to charge your car, but will doesn't appear to increase it's output (speed) if plugged into a 230VAC plug. On the other hand, the Zivan will charge your batteries only slightly faster on a regular household circuit, but will speed up noticably with 230VAC. 

Let me know if that helps.

Eric


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## meanderingthemaze (Jan 25, 2010)

@TheSGC, so you're pack has a capacity of 16,320Wh? How long does it take to charge?

@ewdysar, yes that does help. I am using 6V batteries, so total of 3x16=48cellsx2.5=120V as you stated. But I guess weather can make that flunctuate ever so slightly as well.

Efficiency I think is a good thing. I actually know of someone who has 2 x Delta-Q chargers, so they have the option to plug in to 2 different outlets, and presumably charge twice as fast. Although if they are on the same breaker, that doesn't help. 

I guess I was also trying to figure out how long it would take to charge the pack. Are my equations correct even if I have to change out the numbers a bit? 32 hours is a loooooooong time to charge up a pack(worst case scenario).


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## ewdysar (Jun 15, 2010)

Naiche,

You should also check out Elcon chargers. They have the same efficiency of the Delta-Q chargers with higher output from household circuits. The PFC1500 will charge at 12A and the PFC2000+ will charge at 14A during the bulk phase of charging. As far as I can tell, these are the fastest inexpensive chargers on a regular wall socket. Manazanita chargers can do the same and have greater flexibility and user configurability, but that comes at a higher price. 

Eric


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## ewdysar (Jun 15, 2010)

meanderingthemaze said:


> @TheSGC, so you're pack has a capacity of 16,320Wh? How long does it take to charge?
> 
> @ewdysar, yes that does help. I am using 6V batteries, so total of 3x16=48cellsx2.5=120V as you stated. But I guess weather can make that flunctuate ever so slightly as well.
> 
> ...


While you're doing the math, both for range and charge times, keep in mind that you shouldn't be running to a 100% depth of discharge. In my opinion FLA should be kept above 70% DoD most of the time (I know that some people here disagree) so even with your biggest proposed pack, you shouldn't have to replace more than 23kWh.

Eric


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## meanderingthemaze (Jan 25, 2010)

Eric,
That's exactly the feedback I was looking for. And you're right, I wasn't taking into account the 70% or so DoD factor. I'll check out the Elcon and Manzanita chargers. 
THanks


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## Duxuk (Jul 11, 2009)

Actually my Elcon PFC 1500 claims to do the bulk charge @ 14 amps. It has been set to overcharge every time it is used, which I was told by Elcon is the only option. I have since been told that it can be factory set to only do the equalising charge (91.2V for a 72V nominal pack) every 20 charges, which would be much better. Still it's easy to anticipate when it will go into the equalising phase or I can use a plug in timer. Seems to work well and quickly. 

If you drive for one hour you will never (should never) us more than half of your LA capacity because of the Peukert effect , of course.

The PFCs can be plugged into just about any AC voltage, 115V or 225V or the UKs claimed 240VAC. Apparently at times of high demand the AC voltage from your socket can vary quite a bit. I've never measured it.

Until now! This is a live experiment! Hope I don't die.

BuuuuuZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ!!!!!!!!!!!- banggggg!

Only joking! It was 246VAC, It is 7am, a time of low demand.

Wasn't that exciting.

I hear from the UK Zivan agent that the chargers can be programmed to your exact demands, just as long as you know exactly what you want!

Andrew.


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## meanderingthemaze (Jan 25, 2010)

Thanks for the input Duxuk. 
It's getting down to the wire-ing. I need to decide very soon.


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