# Calling all Europeans; share controller certification cost?



## HugoW (Aug 8, 2015)

Hi,

I would like to make a DC controller based on the Arduino microcontroller with an added power stage, and lots of input and output variables. It would be usable up to about 200V DC and 500A. Making it would be cheap, say € 450,-; getting it CE certified would cost about € 3.000,-.

Now I am probably not the only one running into this problem. So here's my idea; if I would 'sell' the PCB (for all in and outputs) and Arduino program to the first somany people , I could spread the cost of the certification and have my people benifit from the project.

So, simple question, what would this be worth, and how many people would be interested? A little pole... No strings attached, I won't hold you to it. Should this generate enough interest, I might give it a go.

Cheers,

Hugo


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## eldis (Sep 3, 2013)

I remember from my last company that the CE can be self-issued (not always applicable, depending on the object to be certified). Have looked into that? Of course you would still have to comply, in case that someone decides to verify your claim.

Did you get asked for these certificates during your conversion approval?


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

Hi Hugo
Sounds like a great idea 
I would query your specs though
I have a beta version of Paul's IGBT controller - it's good for 1500amps and 400v
If you were developing a new controller I would suggest you size the power bits around that sort of level
Especially the higher voltage - with thing like Leaf batteries becoming common I expect voltages for DIY cars to creep up


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## HugoW (Aug 8, 2015)

Hi Eldis,

thanks for your input. Yes, I can certify myself, this means I can gather al required documentation. However, part of that documentation is reports on testing of the final product proving it is in compliance with the guidelines mentioned on / required by the CE mark. And this testing I cannot do all myself, I need to outsource that. Best and most important example of that is the EMC regulation. The final controller will need to be checked on the magnetic field strength it emits under various conditions. Once I have all reports and all CE docs and / or Certificates of Conformity of all the items used to make the controller, I can 'assemble' the CE file.

Hugo


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## HugoW (Aug 8, 2015)

@Duncan, sorry I was still typing when you posted. I also consider using an IGBT, I found several cheap ones on e-bay doing 1500V 600A. Setting two in parrallel would give me the potential of 1500V x 1200A = 1,8MW. Sure...

Of course the specs are still open to debate. But I see a lot of projects happely using the 144V / 500A Open ReVolt project. We could also choose to have that certified, but using the Arduino would give us the benefit of a huge supportive community and a lot of knowlegde available. I just figured out how the Arduino can also be used to drive RPM and speed dails in existing (analog) dashboards. It really opens up a lot of potential easily, although with all my ideas probably an Arduino Mega board is required (more ports than the standard).

Hugo


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## Tomdb (Jan 28, 2013)

An DC system is a pain in the ass to get past EMC testing.

Look at how much work went into certifying the Soliton for R10 (automotive emc standard)


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## prensel (Feb 21, 2010)

Why not convert/redesign and certify the OpenRevolt with an Arduino having the controls ?
I would like to vote for CAN capability and can help you with that. i have developed an Arduino based system with CAN to intervene with the Vectrix motorscooter CAN traffic and drive the CAN enabled dash with an aftermarket charger and BMS. 



Tomdb said:


> An DC system is a pain in the ass to get past EMC testing.
> 
> Look at how much work went into certifying the Soliton for R10 (automotive emc standard)


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## Tomdb (Jan 28, 2013)

Also, the R10 regulations are based on a motor/controller combination so just a certified controller is not enough.

Can communication is nice to have, however not for direct control unless you program a very good safety counter/watchdog


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## eldis (Sep 3, 2013)

I would say it is better to ask for forgiveness than for permission. Build it, put it in a car, drive to the inspection.

If you write a letter to some bureau that officially handles this, you will get tons of impossible paperwork. My favourite is the French nonsense - if you want to convert a car, you have to ask the car manufacturer to write you a paper stating that your modifications are compliant 

Anyway, there are many people in Europe that already converted and registered their cars. Even with their own DIY controllers. Give it a shot.


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## HugoW (Aug 8, 2015)

Well, the give it a shot way of working does not work with the Dutch DMV. They do give good information, though. Since I am in conversation with them about current rules, they informed me this afternoon the EU is working on an even more stringent rule, which needs the entire car to be EMC tested while performing under load. There are not even test facilities here in the Netherlands where this can be done, like a rolling road with an EMC measuring device. But since the Dutch are always trying to be the best pupil in the class, these rules will probably be implemented here in early 2016. So, at best I will have my controller built and maybe certified by then, but not the car done.

Sorry guys, I started with the best intentions, but I now throw in the towel. I asked Duncan to remove the topic, he asked me to write the above so it might help others.

Good night. And good luck.

Hugo


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

Hugo
I don't know how the EU legislation system works BUT
Here (NZ) the government proposes changes/legislation and asks for comments
We were asked what we thought about the latest proposed legislation
(They asked on this website!!)
(Even if we weren't asked we could still have commented)
I know my comments were acted upon and part of the proposed rules changed 
(Probably other people made the same requests)

Does the EU not have a similar system?
Are you a member of a car club?
Hot Rodders are a part of the electorate - we have the NZHRA (New Zealand Hot Rod Association) 
We are not a powerful electoral block but not totally insignificant
If you speak to your elected representatives you may find that they can overrule the bureaucrats and insert an exemption for small volume

Best get in fast - it's easier to divert a change than to change something once it's in place


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## Tomdb (Jan 28, 2013)

These rules where on the horizon for sometime, also mentioned a few times on this forum before.

However, this is both a good thing and a bad thing. 

good: No need for individual EMC certification of components
Bad and ugly: One off market gets killed instantly so the diy market dies.

Probally got to take the same routes as the kit car builders here, go to another country for EU certification and import the vehicle back into the Netherlands.


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## gunnarhs (Apr 24, 2012)

HugoW said:


> Hi,
> 
> I would like to make a DC controller based on the Arduino microcontroller with an added power stage, and lots of input and output variables. It would be usable up to about 200V DC and 500A. Making it would be cheap, say € 450,-; getting it CE certified would cost about € 3.000,-.
> 
> Now I am probably not the only one running into this problem. So here's my idea; if I would 'sell' the PCB (for all in and outputs) and Arduino program to the first somany people , I could spread the cost of the certification and have my people benifit from the project.


 Hi, I have posted before on the certification matter could not find it but will sum it up shortly. As you are addressing Europeans I will address the rules which are applied in your neighbor country Germany and should be similar to other countries not putting specific restrictions to the underlying EU-directive.
1) When converting a car as a DIY you always need to get your whole car through TUV. In addition to normal safety inspection you need an extra EMI-test if possible. This EMI addresses your whole power train and addresses every vehicle converted. So for DIY there is no legal need of a certified controller. With emphasis on legal.
2) When converting or making cars for a small series (where every car will include the same components) only the prototype needs to pass the TUV IF all components are certified. If you are addressing this market then it would be necessary to have a certified product.

But it is great to have a certified product to gain creditability and it also helps the DIY to minimize the problems coming with EMI. The only thing you will be dealing with is competing with Chinese "CE" - products at much lower prices


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