# High voltage off grid solar battery charging



## aeroscott (Jan 5, 2008)

I've been looking at 350-400volt charging. No solar charge controllers for that. thanks for posting, any other links?


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## akseminole (Jan 5, 2014)

Idk, is this relevant?

http://www.sz-mre.com/content/products/96V,120V,192V,240V 40A MPPT Solar Charge Controller.html

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Cotek-AEK-3000-400-HV-400V-3000W-Programmable-Single-Output-/321566671824

http://news.thomasnet.com/fullstory...rger-accommodates-400-v-li-ion-battery-567867

http://www.absopulse.com/pdf/ac-dc/HVC 2K.pdf


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## aeroscott (Jan 5, 2008)

I've spent 100's of hours looking for high voltage solar charge controllers,
This weekend over 10 hours, no luck. thanks again.


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## Sunking (Aug 10, 2009)

Well this is one of my areas of expertise and will chime in as I do it professionally. So my 2-cents worth



akseminole said:


> I was more specifically looking for off-grid higher voltage battery banks. But, I guess boat solar ev battery banks are better funded (and possibly boat owners are better informed) about their choices than many off grid power systems(which seem to revolve around 12v systems) users.


Incorrect. Boats are poor candidates for solar PV. Solar needs fixed mounts and no shade issues. There is no place on a boat you can put panels to keep them facing into the sun. Not to mention all the Mast, Rigging, and ropes to cast shadows acrross a pane. Even a simple rope shadow accross the panel will shut it down.

12 volt systems are for toys, RV's and boats. Minimum for any off-grid is going to be 24 volts @ 2000 watt maximum panel power. Above 2000 wats and you must go to 48 and higher. 12 volt is limited to 1000 watts which is playing with fire at that low of voltage



akseminole said:


> I have been pestering my local off grid battery purveyors to carry lithium cells, but they seem resistant to the whole idea. It seems that I may have to drag them kicking and screaming into the 21st myself through leading by example.


Simple there is no market for lithium batteries in the off-grid world. It would be extremely economically foolish to even consider it. Going off grid is foolish if you live in the USA and have access to the grid. Just in battery cost alone over the life of the battery is going to cost you 55 to 80-cents per Kwh. In the USA power from the POCO goes for 7 to 20 cents per Kwh in the Lower 48. Those cost do not even include the panels, controllers, hardware, generators and fuel required to go off grid.

FLA batteries last longer and half the initial price. Use LFP and you are now looking at $1.25 to $2.00 per Kwh over the life of the battery. 

You are just not looking in the right places for controllers. Look in the Off-Grid solar Manufactures. Once you get above 48 volt battery electrical codes switch gears with more strict requirements.


Midnight Solar the leader in the market has models from 12 to 120 volts.

Morningstar has controllers from 12 to 72 volts.

Outback 12 to 60


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## akseminole (Jan 5, 2014)

In what sense do flooded lead acid batteries last longer in a deep cycle application vs lithium?

In ak gvea charges you for the kWh that you use, as well as fuel charges as well as several other charges. While they state that it costs around 11c per kWh the bill that one pays comes out looking more like 25c per kWh. Idk if this is some kind of marketing trick, but it's dumb either way.

As far as being incorrect about boats being ideal, I never said that boats were a great idea.
I was remarking on the Website that I found these links on being organized around electric drive solar powered yachts.
I surmise on account of the website being large with a great many boat EV repowering motors etc as well as kits designed around solar recharging that there has been some kind of solar revolution in the boating community. Regardless whether they make a Great platform for solar, they do sit around in the sun all day and someone somewhere has put solar panels on their boat.

The case for off grid in Alaska is made by the limits to how far the electrical grid extends. 
There are more places in Alaska that a road (or plane or boat) gets to than a power pole to the "poco".


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## dcb (Dec 5, 2009)

typically you don't need great power to weight for a stationary system, so lead is often used as it can be had for less (since it isn't lithium). I would start with an estimate of your power needs, i.e. total up the wattage and runtime of all your appliances that you want to power, then figure out if you can get enough sun (isn't it dark a lot there?) and panel size requirements, then figure out the storage requirements to get you through the night plus some for bad weather.

Is it perhaps windy there?


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## Sunking (Aug 10, 2009)

akseminole said:


> In what sense do flooded lead acid batteries last longer in a deep cycle application vs lithium?


Just a fact if you know what kind of FLA battery to use. 

Off Grid battery system design practice is to size the FLA battery for 20% discharge per day with 50% usable. Or in other words if you use 1 Kwh per day you need a 5 Kwh battery. The reason for that is to CYA for 2.5 cloudy days before you have to shut down and go on generator, and more importantly to give you the most bang for you battery investment dollars to extend cycle life.

LFP can be used and to match the same criteria as FLA with some cloudy day and maximizing battery life running 90 to 20% SOC it takes 70 AH of LFP to equal 100 AH of FLA. Both yield 50 AH usable capacity. 

A good quality FLA battery cost roughly $200 per Kwh, and LFP cost around $400 per Kwh. So if you want a battery that yields 1 Kwh per day a FLA battery will cost you roughly $1000, and LFP roughly $1400.

A well cared for FLA battery will yield you roughly 4 to 6 years of service. A LFP 3 to 5 years. It is no contest economically, not even remotely close. If the economics were there, LFP would be a player. Not saying no one uses LFP for off-grid solar as there are a few, but FLA is king now and for sometime to come until the economics change. Your solar dealer knows this and thus why the do not stock LFP batteries. If he did, he would be stuck with it. That is how the market works. Try to find a solar controller made for LFP outside the hobby market. 

If you work the economics from the above data and go with the middle ground of 4 years for LFP, 6 years for FLA both delivering 1 Kwh per day you rKwh cost come to:

LFP $1400 / 1460 Kwh = 96 cents per Kwh. 
FLA $1000 / 1865 Kwh = 54 cents per Kwh.



akseminole said:


> In ak gvea charges you for the kWh that you use, as well as fuel charges as well as several other charges. While they state that it costs around 11c per kWh the bill that one pays comes out looking more like 25c per kWh. Idk if this is some kind of marketing trick, but it's dumb either way.


Works that way everywhere in the USA. What you pay depends on your state political energy policies. Where I am at in TX I pay 7.9 cents per Kwh delived with all charged for the first 1500 Kwh. Price drops to 7.5 cents from 1501 to 2500 Kwh, Drops again to 7.3 for anything over 2500 Kwh. I got that price locked in for 3 years. Wished I had waited another month because the prices dropped after I signed up. Good news is electric prices are expected to drop for the next few years in TX. At the peak in 2008 TX on average was paying 12-cents, today 9-cents delivered on a 3 year contract. If you shop around you can get locked in for around 7.6 cents delivered.


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## Sunking (Aug 10, 2009)

akseminole said:


> The case for off grid in Alaska is made by the limits to how far the electrical grid extends.
> There are more places in Alaska that a road (or plane or boat) gets to than a power pole to the "poco".


Well I understand that. But off-grid in Alaska is not really practical. For an off-grid system you have to design for worse case conditions. In your case winter months. 

Let me give you a real life example of two systems designed to supply the user 1 Kwh of usable electricity per day year round in two different cities. One in Tuscon, and another in Seattle WS.

Battery is equal in both cities requiring a 12 volt 400 AH battery. Tuscon can use a less expensive FLA, and Seattle requires a much more expensive AGM battery which only last half as long as FLA. 

Tuscon

In Tuscon the solar insolation low in December/January is 5.1 Sun Hours. Thus to generate 1 Kwh of usable energy per day requires the panels to generate 1500 wh. If you use a MPPT controller required panel wattage = 1500 wh / 5.1 hours = 294 watts, roun dup to 300 watts. 

A 300 watt panel on a 12 volt battery requires a minimum 25 amp MPPT controller.

FLA Battery cost = $1000
Panel cost using Grid Tied panels = $300
25 amp MPPT controller = $250
Total cost = $1550

Seattle

Seattle in December/ January solar insolation low is 1 Sun Hour .Th epanel must generate the same 1500 wh per day. Panel wattage required is 1500 wh / 1 hour = 1500 watts.

Mppt controller amperage required is 125 amps. No such thing as a 125 amp Controller. It will require two very expensive 60 amp controllers costing roughly $450 each.

125 amps charging a FLA battery is not going to work as it is way to high for FLA. Thus AGM has to be used or LFP now becomes a option because a good quality AGM cost as much as a Chi-Com LFP So battery cost is 40% higher os $1400.

Panel Cost using grid tied panels = $1500
Battery Cost = $1000 FLA, or $1400 LFP
Controller Cost = $900 
Total cost = $3400 for FLA, AGM or LFP = $3800.

Three take away points for you. 

1.When winter low insolation drops below 3 Sun Hours forces you to use AGM batteries due to the high charge rates required.

2. What are you winter solar insolation for December and January? .2 Sun Hours? Using the example above what panel wattage is required to generate 1500 wh in Alaska Winter? 1500 wh / .2 hours = 3000 watts. 

3. Off-grid location means everything. In Alaska you do not go above 3 sun hours until April, and go below 3 Sun hours in late August. You would need a generator and a lot of fuel for 6 to 7 months of the year.


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## glyndwr1998 (Apr 27, 2013)

Hi,

I have been looking for something to store energy in the uk.

I have a 7.5kw solar array, and aml currently waiting on the grid operators to see if they will grant me a 2.5kw solar extension to take me to a total of 10kw, this equates to 45 solar panels of different makes and size as I purchasedd them from different places, at varying costs.

I don't want to go off grid totally, but with my kind of generation from the solar pv system, I could prbably be self sufficient for approx 9 months of the year.

I am constantly amazed with the costs we Brits pay for everything.

Our fuel here is really expensive, petrol for our cars are currently selling for £1.25 per litre, and that has recently dropped from around £1.40 per litre.

Our electricity is now on average 19p per kwh when the transportation costs and meter rental are taken into equation

So our 19p per kwh is equivalent to you of 30 cents in the states, where you currently pay less than 8 cents,

Why do I get the feeling us Brits are constantly getting ripped off by everyone who supplies everything to us here, it is forcing our hands to look for alternatives like solar, ground source heating and hybrid / electric vehicles.

Sometimes I wish I lived elsewhere when I see what others in other countries pay for their energy, food, houses etc..... Why is Britain so bloody expensive.....


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## Sunking (Aug 10, 2009)

glyndwr1998 said:


> Why do I get the feeling us Brits are constantly getting ripped off by everyone who supplies everything to us here, it is forcing our hands to look for alternatives like solar, ground source heating and hybrid / electric vehicles.


It is your government doing it not the suppliers. All your high energy prices are from taxes. They even add more taxes to your petrol if it does not meet minimum mileage requirement called VAT or Value Added Tax. That is one of many reason why us Yanks left. Petrol for example; For every litre of unleaded petrol bought in the UK, 61% per cent of the pump price goes to the government as fuel duty and VAT along with 59% of every litre of diesel.

Stop and think about that. The oil company makes a penny or two on each litre, and the goberment makes a dollar. Same in the USA except on a much smaller scale. Oil companies make around 3 to 4 - cents for each gallon of gasoline and diesel. Federal taxes on gas are 18.4 cents per gallon, and 24.4 cents for diesel. But the real crooks are the states. Alaska has the lowest at 38 cents per gallon for gas while Calafonies pay 71.3 cents per gallon. In TX we are paying around $2.59/gallon for gasoline today. Think that translates to .44 per litre sterling or .55 Euro

People try to make the energy companies out to be the bad guys for high energy prices, when it is the government raking in the real cash and ripping people off.


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## glyndwr1998 (Apr 27, 2013)

Agree with the majority of what your saying, and the government is taking too big a chunk of tax and duty,

However, we are supposed to be in a competitive market, and there are 6 major players, and suprisingly, thay all charge roughly the same,

Along with that, the 6 companies all make roughly a 700 million pounds per annum profit, that's 4.2 billion from energy that poeple need to live and heat their homes. 

That is scandalous in my book.

The worst thing that the stupid idiot Margaret thatcher done was sell off the energy companies, that proft could be going into the governments purse rather than making millionaire shareholders even richer.


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## akseminole (Jan 5, 2014)

I think that my idea of an off-grid system is very very different than yours Sunking.

I'm sure that most of the grid tied systems in Ak follow your design principles, and I certainly don't blame them or think any less of them for it.

However, the off-grid lifestyle that I was introduced to as a child is Much more minimalist in nature.

At the time(there were no led house lights) we used the electricity very little and had fluorescent lights where electric light was needed. Mostly we supplemented with electricity with kerosene light as the main.

I believe that the difference in our understanding of Off-grid is more of a cultural or generational difference than technological.

Kind of like the difference in the point of view of someone who grew up during the Great Depression vs someone from right now.

Where you see the Need to size the system to supply at Least a kWh per day I think it would be "nice" to have a kWh per day.

I am willing to live with a significantly reduced energy signature- using 1-2.5w led lights for spot lighting etc. 


I prefer the lithium for it's reduced size and lower maintenance requirements. I'm not really a check my batteries water kind of guy if I don't have to be.
I'm ok with tinkering with my system, I'm just somewhat lazy. 


I wish I could check around for a lower rate. Unfortunately we have or rather GVEA has what some might call a "monopoly". They are the Only game in town.
There aren't any reductions for using more kWh and in fact, in addition to charging for the kWh. They charge for the fuel used to make the power...

Wouldn't that be covered under the per kWh? No? Ok. It's a recent thing.

Since people started to lower their electric bill by using less power GVEA added a fuel use surcharge that basically doubles the bill.

Also, we may pay "less" in taxes to the Man, but our price per gallon still seems to be greater than yours.


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## akseminole (Jan 5, 2014)

If it were purely a matter of battery life, I think that I would go with a nickel iron battery like this:

http://ironedison.com
http://ironedison.com/iron-edison-usa-series-nickel-iron-nife-battery

http://www.zappworks.com/battery_specs.htm

I would rather not deal with wasting that much space. Though they have caught my eye more than once.


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## Sunking (Aug 10, 2009)

akseminole said:


> If it were purely a matter of battery life, I think that I would go with a nickel iron battery like this:
> 
> http://ironedison.com
> 
> ...


Stay far away from NiFe batteries. I know a lot of folks who made that mistake and did not listen. There is a very good reason Edison never kept the patent up to date and, all US manufactures quit making them back in the 70's. I know that blog site very well and the person running it. He has been ran off every RE forum out there. He has a vested interest in the product because he is a distributor for the Chi-Com and Ruskies manufactures.


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## Sunking (Aug 10, 2009)

akseminole said:


> Also, we may pay "less" in taxes to the Man, but our price per gallon still seems to be greater than yours.


Location my friend. Where are your refineries, and how far does it have to be shipped? What additives (like ethanol) does your state and weather conditions require to be added. If you have ethanol your price comes down 10% because the goberment pays for it. 

Alaska Gas tax is 30.8 cents, and TX is 38.4. Alaska pays the lowest state taxes of all the states, but your location and transportation cost is what gets you. As of today Tennessee has the lowest pump prices at 2.58/gal. Alaska is second highest in the USA right behind Hawaii. Everything legal in Alaska and Hawaii are higher than the lower 48 except fish and seafood. 

Source


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## akseminole (Jan 5, 2014)

We have several refineries in state and produce a crap load of petroleum.

And yet, apparently the global petroleum futures market heavily influences Alaska's current prices.

If this guy is to be believed.

http://www.adn.com/article/fuel-prices-and-future-cost-heating-your-alaska-home


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## Sunking (Aug 10, 2009)

akseminole said:


> We have several refineries in state and produce a crap load of petroleum.
> 
> And yet, apparently the global petroleum futures market heavily influences Alaska's current prices.
> 
> ...


I agree with the author even though the article is 2 years old. Traders and Government are making the big bucks. Difference is the government always makes a windfall profit. Traders are risking their own money and take losses when they get it wrong. Government always wins with a flat tax rate. 

I don't have a problem with the traders, but I do with the government because they are the ones who regulate and call the shots. Traders are just smart and motivated enough to make a good living at it. Anyone can do it if they wish to and have the motivation. Like it or not we all choose our destiny.


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## akseminole (Jan 5, 2014)

Not that I disbelieve you, Sunking, but I would be interested to know the very good reasons that Nickle Iron batteries are a waste of time and $.

I prefer to be informed in my decisions rather than simply hearing "that's bad mmmmkay?" and believing.


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## Sunking (Aug 10, 2009)

akseminole said:


> Not that I disbelieve you, Sunking, but I would be interested to know the very good reasons that Nickle Iron batteries are a waste of time and $.
> 
> I prefer to be informed in my decisions rather than simply hearing "that's bad mmmmkay?" and believing.


1. Charge Efficiency 60% vs 85 to 90% for FLA. Means higher panel wattage to generate given watt hour per day which means more expense.[/QUOTE]


Thought I should revisit this because I did not go into enough detail and is the final nail in the coffin of NiFe batteries. 

Coulombic Efficiency does NOT equal Watts In versus Watts Out. NiFe batteries charge at a very high voltage relative to their discharge. If I put 100 amps in at 1.6 volts and pull those same 100 amps out at 1.1 volts, that's only 68.7% efficient on power recovery even though I might be 100% efficient in coulombs. Also, the harder you pull on a NiFe (Discharge or C Rate) the lower the voltage will be (i.e. voltage sag). Therefore the more instantaneous watts you draw, the lower the overall efficiency you will experience from the battery. This is worse for a NiFe than a traditional LA cell due to higher internal cell resistance.

This means two things in a solar system. You must grossly over size both panel wattage and battery capacity. Couple that with a high-end FLa battery that last 5 to 7 years cost you roundly 20 to 22-cents per watt hour, and a NiFe up around $2 to $3 wh.

Knowing that does it make you want to run out and buy a NiFe battery, more panels, and larger charge controller?


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## muffildy (Oct 11, 2011)

you might consider alternative energy storage methods like hot water or hot oil:
http://www.usa-eds.com/userfiles/file/Eds_Brochure website.pdf
hot water somewhat expensive but could probably DIY easily enough

or this one:
http://www.permies.com/t/30950/energy/Stirling-Engine-Tamera-Portugal
energy is stored in hot oil for cooking or use with a sterling engine.


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## Sunking (Aug 10, 2009)

muffildy said:


> http://www.permies.com/t/30950/energy/Stirling-Engine-Tamera-Portugal
> energy is stored in hot oil for cooking or use with a sterling engine.


Sterling Engine. That is some funny stuff, I don't care who you are. Almost as funny as hot water.


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## Frank (Dec 6, 2008)

To the Brits: add your medical costs to your petrol costs and then compare to US costs for the same...


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## outlaw4shrt (Nov 27, 2014)

newb question here, I'm just trying to understand the conversation as it may relate to my ideas/plans, but they don't make a solar panel high voltage charger specifically for LiFePO4 batteries? An FLA charger couldn't be tuned to charge LFP's? I ask because I was working through the idea of putting a 3250wh to 3500wh solar panel array on the ladder rack of my truck (14 x 250w panels). I'm sure the idea sounds silly to the more experienced folks out there, but if you could break it down to me barney style I would really appreciate it. Thanks in advance.


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## glyndwr1998 (Apr 27, 2013)

Hi outlaw,

If you search on eBay for solar charger inverters there are a few on there that are from Taiwan but german designed, and supposed to be very good.
They can work on or off grid, and the 48v ones do support lifepo4 batteries.

Build a 48v pack, connect that to the Charger inverter, plug in your solar array to the inverter (I'm not sure but I think the max dc voltage is 150v, most household solar pv module s are 37v short circuit, so that's 4 panels in series and however many in parallel Until your roof is full)

The charger inverter will then charge the batteries from the excessive power plus supply your electricity that you will use.

I will do this also when ingest hold of the batteries.

Good luck.


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## PhantomPholly (Aug 20, 2008)

There are some advances besides LiIon for grid storage. Aquion Energy is now in production of batteries designed to be cheap and more durable than Pb-Acid. Don't think they are selling retail yet, but as they scale up prices should fall below an equivalent sized lead acid setup.


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## Sunking (Aug 10, 2009)

PhantomPholly said:


> There are some advances besides LiIon for grid storage. Aquion Energy is now in production of batteries designed to be cheap and more durable than Pb-Acid. Don't think they are selling retail yet, but as they scale up prices should fall below an equivalent sized lead acid setup.


Very disappointing battery. Has no use for an EV with a Specific Energy Density of 20 wh/Kg or just under half that of Pb (50 wh/Kg) and 1/6 of lithium (100 to 230 wh/Kg).

On energy storage side again useless as no equipment will be able to work with a voltage range of 1.25 to 2.45 vpc. On a 48 volt system works out to 30 to 59 volts. Equipment shuts down at 44 volts.


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## outlaw4shrt (Nov 27, 2014)

glyndwr1998 said:


> Hi outlaw,
> 
> If you search on eBay for solar charger inverters there are a few on there that are from Taiwan but german designed, and supposed to be very good.
> They can work on or off grid, and the 48v ones do support lifepo4 batteries.
> ...


I've been trying to do some research but my knowledge is limited. Can I run my idea for a set-up by you and get your thoughts?

so I went on e-bay and I think I found the inverters you were mentioning here: http://www.ebay.com/itm/SOLAR-HYBRID-INVERTER-2400W-3000VA-24V-PURE-SINE-WAVE-WITH-CHARGER-REGULATOR-50A/291299443983?_trksid=p2047675.c100005.m1851&_trkparms=aid%3D222007%26algo%3DSIC.MBE%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D27710%26meid%3D2fa0eeb3232f40fa91925de8ba3e65e6%26pid%3D100005%26prg%3D11385%26rk%3D3%26rkt%3D6%26sd%3D291299447419&rt=nc

each one is capable of supporting a 48V battery pack, yes?

to each inverter I would run 4x sunmodule 265 watt panels: http://www.altestore.com/store/Sola...l-Sunmodule-265W-Black-Mono-V25-Frame/p10811/

and I would connect each of my inverters to a 48V 1050Ah CALB battery pack consisting of 15 70Ah 3.2V LiFePO4 batteries: http://evolveelectrics.com/calb/calb-70ah/ 

I would run three inverters, 12 panels, and 3 battery packs, so I would be looking at a mobile 3180W solar panel power array and 3150Ah total battery pack.

I could run the three battery packs in series to the motor controller and have a 144V 3150Ah system, correct? total price would be $9678 + cost of the ladder rack and hydraulics - any federal and state rebates??? because the battery packs would be part of the solar panel array, I could use the solar rebates against the battery pack since they would be part of a complete system. 

would this work, or am I crazy?


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## Sunking (Aug 10, 2009)

> would this work, or am I crazy?


No and Yes. 

It would be insane to use this and does not work the way you think it does.

First and foremost is the unit does not have a UL certification which means there is no code compliant manner you could interface the unit to work connected to the grid. You could not pull a permit or pass inspections, and no electric company would connect you nor would your insurance carrier cover any damages.

Secondly it does not use solar to charge the batteries, it uses commercial or generator power to charge the batteries. The battery option is only for short brief power outages and very limited power to your emergency loads which all have to be re-routed from your main panel to your new Emergency Panel your Electric Contractor would have to install in your house at your expense.

Lastly if you were to buy the expensive 5000 Va unit operating at 48 volt battery only supplies a maximum of 30 amps of charge current from the utility or generator, not the panels. with a single 1580 AH pack you are looking at 3 days to recharge as it is only made for a 500 AH 48 volt battery maximum capacity. Enough for about 80-cents of electricity

Basically it is an illegal UPS. Hybrid Inverters are just about useless, even the legal UL certified units. Example a similar sized listed Schneider 4500 VA model Xantrex XW4548 will cost you in the neighborhood of $2600. That $900 Chi-Com unit should send a clear Red Flag up your flag pole. A good solar 80 Amp Charge Controller for a 5000 watt array will cost you $900. Heck even a good TSW 5000 battery inverter will cost at least $1500. 

Stay away from Flea Bay for solar or really any electrical or electronics as most of it is Chi-Com crap that is not listed by any recognized testing agency like UL. Without certification you cannot use it in any code compliant manner. No AHJ would issue you a permit, pass inspection, nor would a utility connect you. Complete waste of money. Unless you live in a state with very high electric rates and heavily subsidized solar incentives solar is not worth the money. In many states like Arizona this week all Net metering is gone along with subsidies as utilities fight back for the paying customers.

No the unit would not be eligible to use my money to subsidize your energy needs. You can afford it all by yourself, we cannot. 

In the end you would pay $900 for a 48 volt 20 or 30 amp golf cart battery charger, and yu can buy those all day long for $150.


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## Hollie Maea (Dec 9, 2009)

outlaw4shrt said:


> to each inverter I would run 4x sunmodule 265 watt panels: http://www.altestore.com/store/Sola...l-Sunmodule-265W-Black-Mono-V25-Frame/p10811/



Hey, I made those panels!

You'd have to really care a lot about the aesthetics, though, to buy a black panel. They cost more and they are less efficient.


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## outlaw4shrt (Nov 27, 2014)

Sunking said:


> No and Yes.
> 
> It would be insane to use this and does not work the way you think it does.
> 
> ...


Thanks man!!! That's great feedback, I really appreciate it. Seriously, that really helped me get pointed in the right direction since I am starting from scratch with this. I came up with up with another layout based on an Outback GS8048A and three Outback FlexMax80's. 

I am getting closer?


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## outlaw4shrt (Nov 27, 2014)

Hollie Maea said:


> Hey, I made those panels!
> 
> You'd have to really care a lot about the aesthetics, though, to buy a black panel. They cost more and they are less efficient.


That's awesome! I haven't done anything that tangible in my life other than my kids, that's really cool 

I actually do care about the aesthetics though since they are going on my truck, but more importantly, they seem to be the toughest panels on the market that I've found. 110 lbs-ft2, is that right??? Could you walk on these if they were properly supported?

Any chance you know where I can get 12 of these for less than $300 a piece?


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## PhantomPholly (Aug 20, 2008)

Sunking said:


> Very disappointing battery. Has no use for an EV with a Specific Energy Density of 20 wh/Kg or just under half that of Pb (50 wh/Kg) and 1/6 of lithium (100 to 230 wh/Kg).


Yep, but OP was about off-grid solar storage so weight is not a factor unless you live in a swamp. 

One thing though, these cells can be run dead without damage unlike Pb acid. So, that cuts the practical difference in energy density down a bit. Still terrible for vehicles...



> On energy storage side again useless as no equipment will be able to work with a voltage range of 1.25 to 2.45 vpc. On a 48 volt system works out to 30 to 59 volts. Equipment shuts down at 44 volts.


Not sure why cell voltage would be an issue. He was looking for high voltage storage; these batteries supposedly string together without balancing issues ("Self-balancing" is listed as one of the qualities here) so add as many as you need to get the voltage you want. You don't have to use their pallet module, you could string cells together yourself.

Well it's all academic concerning the batteries anyway until they hit the store shelves.

However, if he is truly going high-voltage on the battery pack, modern grid-tie inverters handily handle 50% voltage ranges. Here is the spec sheet on a Fronius grid-tie inverter, which accepts input voltage anywhere from 230-500v. Of course that assumes enough solar panels to generate that kind of charging voltage, or a clever charger that ups the voltage from the current available.


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## Sunking (Aug 10, 2009)

PhantomPholly said:


> Yep, but OP was about off-grid solar storage so weight is not a factor unless you live in a swamp.
> 
> One thing though, these cells can be run dead without damage unlike Pb acid. So, that cuts the practical difference in energy density down a bit. Still terrible for vehicles...


I think you are missing my point. In an Off-Grid Battery, battery inverters are designed to operate in a voltage range for lead acid batteries. Perfect example is a 48 volt battery system. Any legitimate Battery Inverter can only operate from 60 volts on the high end before they trip off line from over voltage, and down to 44-45 volts before they trip off line from under voltage. Aquion operating range is 39 to 59. The last 40% of capacity would not be available to a Battery Inverter because it cannot operate at that low of a voltage. 



PhantomPholly said:


> Well it's all academic concerning the batteries anyway until they hit the store shelves.


Not quite accurate as they have been released Down Under in Aussie Land and owners are discovering the low voltage issue with battery inverters. Outback, Midnite Solar, Morning Star and other solar manufactures also have sets and having the same issue with battery voltages. They would have to completely redesign their product lines to be compatible. Granted it could be done, but there is no market or reason to do so for just one manufacture. Besides Trojan already has a Carbon Lead battery on the market right now and perform excellent in PSOC operation. 



PhantomPholly said:


> However, if he is truly going high-voltage on the battery pack, modern grid-tie inverters handily handle 50% voltage ranges.


Huh? Grid Tied Inverters do not connect to batteries. A GTI has MPPT Tracking to operate from 200 to 500 volts. The MPPT Tracking is for the panels, not batteries. If you were to connect batteries to a GTI, the GTI would completely drain them, thus destroy the batteries. Hybrid Inverters are a different animal and use standard 12/24/48 volt batteries, but battery power is not used to feed the grid, only Emergency Loads. Some Hybrids will alloo you to use battery power to send out on th egrid, but only a small percentage of the capacity so as not to damage the batteries. Bu tit would be very foolish to use your batteries as over th elife of the battery each Kwh cost you some 50 to 75-cents per Kwh. Not good biz to sell a product for 10-cents if it cost you 75-cents to manufacture. Only Democrats and Liberals do that foolishness.


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## Hollie Maea (Dec 9, 2009)

outlaw4shrt said:


> That's awesome! I haven't done anything that tangible in my life other than my kids, that's really cool
> 
> I actually do care about the aesthetics though since they are going on my truck, but more importantly, they seem to be the toughest panels on the market that I've found. 110 lbs-ft2, is that right??? Could you walk on these if they were properly supported?
> 
> Any chance you know where I can get 12 of these for less than $300 a piece?


Yeah, they are strong. You could actually drive a car over them without breaking them. But Solarworld also makes white panels, and they are more efficient.

As far as where to buy them, I just worked in production, not sales. We generally didn't do a lot of direct sales, so your best bet might be to talk to a local dealer.


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## Sunking (Aug 10, 2009)

outlaw4shrt said:


> Thanks man!!! That's great feedback, I really appreciate it. Seriously, that really helped me get pointed in the right direction since I am starting from scratch with this. I came up with up with another layout based on an Outback GS8048A and three Outback FlexMax80's.
> 
> I am getting closer?


Well you are welcome but your drawing does not add up, or is missing some information. You need to tap the breaks before you make a really ignorant expensive mistake you will deeply regret later when you figure things out. 

15S 70AH Does Not = 48 @ *1050 AH*. 15S @ 70 AH = 48 @ 70 AH. Series circuit voltage adds and current remains the same. Parallel current adds and voltage remains the same. It would take 15S15P to equal 48 @ 1050. In other words 225 cells of 15 in series with 15 parallel strings. It would take 775 cells to make what you think you have, but you only have 45 cells right? Put all those in series and you have 45S @ 70 AH or 144 volts @ 70 AH. My golf cart has the same capacity as you do with 15S2P 100 AH GBS cells. What you show in your drawing is *15S3P* [_15 cells in series per string, and 3 parallel strings_] to equal *48 volts @ 210 AH*. 

Your recharge times are way off which comes from your error in Amp Hour capacity. I also do not think you understand Solar Sun Hours. A solar Sun Hour is not an hour of sunlight. Example this time of year (November) in Kansas City MO receives 3.4 Sun Hours, and next month of December drops to 2.9 Sun Hours. Most folks assume if there is 11 hours of daylight there is 11 Sun Hours which is false.

If you have a 1060 watt panel operating with a MPPT Charge Controller the charge current is 1060 Watts / 48 volts = 22 amps. To charge a 70 AH battery will require 70 AH / 22 A = 3.18 Hours. However that is SUN HOURS, not CLOCK HOURS. In other words in KCY right now a full day from sun up to sun set and it is a bright cloudless low humidly day. In December would take almost two full days.

Lastly the last thing you want to use if you have commercial power is use a hybrid inverter. If anything just use a conventional Grid Tied Inverter. A Hybrid Inverter uses either commercial AC or generator power to charge the batteries, not the panels under normal operating conditions. A hybrid Inverter cost 3 times more than a conventional string inverter, and also requires you to re-wire your house which is real expensive. Hybrid Inverters also force you to use low voltage which is very inefficient, greatly increases installation expense with much larger copper wire and multiple parallel strings. Just bad news all around. The purpose of a Hybrid Inverter is to have power when commercial power is out. But there is a catch. A Hybrid Inverter requires a generator. Why have an expensive Hybrid Inverter, and very expensive batteries if you need a generator? Just get a dang whole house generator for a whole lot less money and does a better job where you can run everything in your house like nothing ever happened. 

Using those 3 Hybid Inverters will cost you around $7500 just for the Inverters right? That does not include anything else. What if I told you could install a 4 Kw Grid tied system with all cost included for less than $7500. I said the whole system including panels, material, permits, inspection fees, and professional labor to get it done right? It would also save you big time your electric bill depending on where you live and how much you use. 

Lastly I do this for a living and this may surprise you. I would not touch solar. If I were you, I would just buy a 150 volt 50 to 70 amp charger to operate on a dedicated 240 VAC circuit. That would allow you to fully recharge in 2 or 3 clock hours at a minute fraction of the price of what you suggest. Where I live in TX power cost 7.6 cents per Kwh for all you want and drops to 7.2 cents after 1500 Kwh. That includes all delivery charges.

OK if you insist on doing this with solar, you are going about this all wrong. For $500 to $600 buy you a Midnight Solar Classic 150 MPPT Charge Controller. The controller is 80 amps which means with a 48 volt battery can input up to 5020 watts of solar. Another great option is Morningstar TriStar 600 volt MPPT Charge Controller @ 60 amps which means at 48 volt battery can input up to 3200 watts of panels exactly what you intended. Being 600 volt input means a single string of panels using small wire with no combiners or expensive hardware. Either of the two options is 1/10th (90% less) the cost of what you want using 3 hybrid inverters.


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## outlaw4shrt (Nov 27, 2014)

Sunking said:


> I also do not think you understand Solar Sun Hours.


 I would agree, I am not sure I fully understand much of any of this right now, but as much as one can convey across the internet, I really appreciate you taking the time to walk me through it. I'm going to take a while to think on what you said and I'm sure I'll come back with more questions/great ideas! 

Thanks again,

- Outlaw


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## Sunking (Aug 10, 2009)

outlaw4shrt said:


> I would agree, I am not sure I fully understand much of any of this right now, but as much as one can convey across the internet, I really appreciate you taking the time to walk me through it. I'm going to take a while to think on what you said and I'm sure I'll come back with more questions/great ideas!
> 
> Thanks again,
> 
> - Outlaw


You are welcome. Another thing you missed with the GS8048A has a built in *115 amp charger* which would burn up a 70 AH battery first time you used it. That unit is required to have a minimum 800 AH 48 volt FLA battery. If using LFP you could get away with 210 AH, but with a caveat the charger is not designed for LFP batteries as the charge voltage for 48 volt FLA battery charge voltage of 60 volts. That would damage a 15S LFP pack pretty darn quick as they are made to be charged at 54 volts CV in a 15S pack. 

Best advice I can give you is just buy a conventional 144 volt LFP 50 amp charger operating at 240 VAC. If you want solar hire a contractor to install a conventional Grid Tied System, but that has nothing to do with charging an EV battery.


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## PhantomPholly (Aug 20, 2008)

Sunking said:


> Huh? Grid Tied Inverters do not connect to batteries. A GTI has MPPT Tracking to operate from 200 to 500 volts. The MPPT Tracking is for the panels, not batteries. If you were to connect batteries to a GTI, the GTI would completely drain them, thus destroy the batteries. Hybrid Inverters are a different animal and use standard 12/24/48 volt batteries, but battery power is not used to feed the grid, only Emergency Loads. Some Hybrids will alloo you to use battery power to send out on th egrid, but only a small percentage of the capacity so as not to damage the batteries. Bu tit would be very foolish to use your batteries as over th elife of the battery each Kwh cost you some 50 to 75-cents per Kwh. Not good biz to sell a product for 10-cents if it cost you 75-cents to manufacture. Only Democrats and Liberals do that foolishness.


There is no need to get nasty!  

While you are clearly knowledgeable about PB acid batteries I think you are confused on this one. Grid tie inverters do indeed work with batteries just fine, although your point is taken that most folks do buy them so they don't have to have batteries. Many systems are programmable to stop discharging when the battery pack reaches a preset level; the one I linked simply drops offline when the minimum voltage is reached (thus protecting the batteries from total discharge). Thus there is no danger of fully discharging. And, if you have a mostly-off-grid system and generate an excess in the summer, I can easily see someone selecting a grid tie system to sell their excess in the summer and perhaps buying it back in the winter when they don't quite generate enough even with battery backup to meet their needs.

Whether it is a grid-tie or hybrid inverter, the input source is DC and is thus optimized when there is some kind of storage. Some people have both, with enough battery backup for short periods of time when the grid is down and the sun is not shining.


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## Sunking (Aug 10, 2009)

PhantomPholly said:


> There is no need to get nasty!
> 
> While you are clearly knowledgeable about PB acid batteries I think you are confused on this one. Grid tie inverters do indeed work with batteries just fine,


That is not a Grid Tie Inverter. That is a Hybrid Inverter which is a different animal.


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## PhantomPholly (Aug 20, 2008)

Sunking said:


> That is not a Grid Tie Inverter. That is a Hybrid Inverter which is a different animal.


Here is a wiring diagram for a grid tie inverter. Note the input of DC power such as comes from batteries.











Perhaps you are simply arguing terminology, that by using it in conjunction with batteries it becomes a hybrid (the use, not the equipment)? If so I'm fine with that description - but the equipment is functionally no different.


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

Hi phantom
What do you know about grid tied inverters for use with wind generators?


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## Sunking (Aug 10, 2009)

PhantomPholly said:


> Here is a wiring diagram for a grid tie inverter. Note the input of DC power such as comes from batteries.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


No there are three type of inverters out there. By definition an Inverter is any device that takes DC power and converts it AC power. but that is where similarity ends.

Battery inverters are powered from voltage sources of a battery in a very specific voltage range of a battery. For example a 12 volt battery inverter is made to operate only from 11 to 15 volts of ample capacity to maintain voltage under full designed load. The output is variable from 0 watts to full rated power for as long as the load device demands it or the battery becomes exhausted. Very simple device like you show.

A Grid Tied Inverter is a DC Current Source device. Solar panels are not voltage sources like batteries they are Current Sources whose current output and voltage are unknown, but inside a very wide range of current and voltage input that changes from second to second. The output must be synchronized withing 1 degree of the utility and must shut off when grid power fails to comply with UL 1741 anti-island requirements. GTI's must generate full power 100% of the time which is dependent on the variable voltage and current input from the current source of the panels. Conventional GTI's operate over a very wide voltage range of 200 to 600 volts and must operate into extremely low impedance of the electrical grid. There is quite a bit more range and control circuits than a simple battery inverter. For example a GTI has a MPPT tracking device to optimize maximum power from extreme power fluctuations coming from the panels. Example a 5000 watt 600 volt panel system can go from 600 volt @ 8.3 amps input at noon down to 300 volts @ .09 amps in a second or two and back again as a cloud passes over. 

A hybrid Inverter is even more complex than GTI because it is both a battery and grid tied inverter with even more controls. For example they have built in battery chargers, Automatic Transfer Switch, and generator input. A Battery Inverter and GTI have none of that

Sorry Phantom I do this for a living and there is a huge difference between Battery Invertrs, Grid Tied Inverters, and Hybrid Inverters. They all do something in common of converting DC to AC, but each does it differently with greater complexity as you move up the food chain. 

A good TSW 24 vdc 2000 watt battery inverter cost around $500 to $800
A good 600 vot 2000 watt GTI will cost you around $1500
A good 2000 watt Hybrid Inverter will cost around $2800


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## PhantomPholly (Aug 20, 2008)

Sunking said:


> No there are three type of inverters out there. By definition an Inverter is any device that takes DC power and converts it AC power. but that is where similarity ends.
> 
> Battery inverters are powered from voltage sources of a battery in a very specific voltage range of a battery. For example a 12 volt battery inverter is made to operate only from 11 to 15 volts of ample capacity to maintain voltage under full designed load. The output is variable from 0 watts to full rated power for as long as the load device demands it or the battery becomes exhausted. Very simple device like you show.
> 
> ...


Ok so you are saying that a Hybrid Inverter includes both a grid tie inverter (a component of any such system), a smart charger, a battery storage unit, and a switching system to determine when / if to release excess stored energy to the grid.

I'm ok with you calling such a "system" a hybrid system - but it still contains a grid-tie inverter as a component.

And, you could create such a system from separate components - just like you can build a home theater system from separate components.

So, we are both right. But, if it makes you feel good, I'll promise to try and remember to call it a hybrid inverter if the whole system contains more than just the grid tie inverter component.


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## PhantomPholly (Aug 20, 2008)

Duncan said:


> Hi phantom
> What do you know about grid tied inverters for use with wind generators?


Not much specifically, but conceptually it is just like the diagram I posted above. You have a windmill which is essentially a DC system outputting across a range of volts and amps. If the wind generator is producing outside of the parameters acceptable to the grid tie inverter, the inverter either shuts itself off (if it was designed well) or smokes. By the way, they stopped selling smoke kits to put the smoke back in in 1962... 

For the windmill side, there should be a subsystem to control the rotor rpm and the generator output - again, it should be matched to the inverter. If available wind power is too low to make the inverter go, the vanes should be feathered to dump the wind load to prevent over-speed, or the whole thing should be tied to a switchable dummy load to keep rpm within limits until enough wind is available to run the inverter. If available wind power is too great, again the vanes should be feathered to avoid having the whole bloody thing go on a rampage.

Speaking of subsystems, I installed a whole-house humidifier the other day on my furnace. Had I only known years ago how cheap and simple these doodads are I would have had one in every house! Biggest issue is finding somewhere from which to run an ice maker type copper water line to the furnace, and making sure that any possible leaks can be contained. Brought the relative humidity up 12% in just a couple of hours, seems to have settled in at around 42% which is downright comfortable in the winter.


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## Sunking (Aug 10, 2009)

Duncan said:


> Hi phantom
> What do you know about grid tied inverters for use with wind generators?


Unless you have to lean into the wind to walk, do not bother with wind turds. They work well in a commercial generation application on the grid, but useless in a residential system. For one it has to be 50 feet above any obstruction such as a tree line which means a very expensive tower you will have to climb at least once a year for maintenance and replacement. 

Inverters and controllers are nothing special, same as any solar controller that uses DC power. All the wind turds have rectifiers built into them to convert to DC.


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

_Speaking of subsystems, I installed a whole-house humidifier the other day on my furnace. Had I only known years ago how cheap and simple these doodads are I would have had one in every house! Biggest issue is finding somewhere from which to run an ice maker type copper water line to the furnace, and making sure that any possible leaks can be contained. Brought the relative humidity up 12% in just a couple of hours, seems to have settled in at around 42% which is downright comfortable in the winter._

When I bought a house in Indiana I was told that I *had to* fit one of those - so it was one of the first jobs
Worked well - I would clean it each fall so it was ready for the winter

Totally alien to the UK and NZ - it never gets that dry here!


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## PhantomPholly (Aug 20, 2008)

Sunking said:


> Unless you have to lean into the wind to walk, do not bother with wind turds. They work well in a commercial generation application on the grid, but useless in a residential system. For one it has to be 50 feet above any obstruction such as a tree line which means a very expensive tower you will have to climb at least once a year for maintenance and replacement.
> 
> Inverters and controllers are nothing special, same as any solar controller that uses DC power. All the wind turds have rectifiers built into them to convert to DC.


I personally don't like them for several reasons. They are unsightly; generally incur more costs than the value of electricity produced (even when the initial capital investment is paid for by gubmint); Produce ground vibrations which apparently disrupt insects and wildlife and in any event are just plain annoying; kill birds; etc.

I see the future as being some combination of solar plus a variety of power transport systems to meet high latitude needs (transmission lines; conversion to liquids); and perhaps some MSR reactors also in higher latitudes. 

And, of course, by 2500 Mr. Fusion will be everywhere....


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## outlaw4shrt (Nov 27, 2014)

Alright, I'm back. Let me know if you want me to go into details, but here's where I am at now. FYI, the batteries are kind of in a 3-phase delta arrangement so that with relays they can be in parallel and series at the same time when required. 

did I go from bad to worse?


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

outlaw4shrt said:


> Alright, I'm back. Let me know if you want me to go into details, but here's where I am at now. FYI, the batteries are kind of in a 3-phase delta arrangement so that with relays they can be in parallel and series at the same time when required.
> 
> did I go from bad to worse?


Yep, I'd say it is worse. You can't get simultaneous connections for series and parallel to work without short circuits. And mixing high voltage battery circuit to low voltage auxiliary circuit is a real bad idea. Don't know what 2S12P/7S/3 means, but a 12 cell parallel 2 in series EnerDel module will be problematic. Also, it appears you often multiply voltage and current (or charge (A or Ah)) for the same multiple connected batteries or cells. It is an either/or combination rule. Connection in series; voltage adds/current does not. Connection in parallel; current adds/voltage does not.

On another note; I like the torque curves you posted. Nice job with that  

major


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## outlaw4shrt (Nov 27, 2014)

major said:


> Yep, I'd say it is worse. You can't get simultaneous connections for series and parallel to work without short circuits. And mixing high voltage battery circuit to low voltage auxiliary circuit is a real bad idea. Don't know what 2S12P/7S/3 means, but a 12 cell parallel 2 in series EnerDel module will be problematic. Also, it appears you often multiply voltage and current (or charge (A or Ah)) for the same multiple connected batteries or cells. It is an either/or combination rule. Connection in series; voltage adds/current does not. Connection in parallel; current adds/voltage does not.
> 
> On another note; I like the torque curves you posted. Nice job with that
> 
> major


major, that's great feedback, I really appreciate it. I'm trying to learn with everything I read but there are obviously some things that I am really confused by. For starters, how does EnerDel get 480 amps max out of a 49.2V/160A module unless the cells are connected in both series and parallel? If you map/follow the gates, as I understand, I could have them linked in parallel, series, or both at the same time (assuming you can do that). I guess I would just build a circuit board or controller to open the gates/relays with 1's or 0's based on what I needed or wanted at the time. As far as the high and low voltage together, if you look at the gates, they can and would be run independently. Having them together is for charging from solar with the low voltage AGM's connected in series for 48V's in order to pull from the solar classic pushing at 48V's. I also have them connected to the high voltage line as a sort of "reserve" in which case they would be in parallel with the other LiFePO4's at 48V's. I'll take out any mention of them in series with the LiFePO4's. Lastly, I had no idea how to write the layout of my battery pack (2S12P/7S/3). So it's three systems/packs of 7 x 2S12P modules in series. What's wrong with the 2S12P's? 

Thanks, it took me a few hours to figure out how to do that from the "build your own electric vehicle" book link that you posted. The author doesn't really help you at all in terms of how to set that up.


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

First off, EnerDel is not LiFePO4. And I don't know what you mean by an EnerDel 49.2V/160A module. The EnerDel standard module consist of 24 cells of 2 in parallel (an element) and 12 of those elements in series for a 2P12S arrangement yielding 44.4V nominal (12 * 3.7V/c) and 31 to 35 Ah. The Ah rating will depend on the cell type which ranges from 15.5 to 17.5 Ah/c. Depending on the cell type they can deliver up to 20C.

You can rearrange the cell connections on the EnerDel modules for different S/P configurations. This is shown on the Evolve website. However 6 elements in parallel will stress the standard module hardware, IMO, unless they are to be used in very low C applications.


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## outlaw4shrt (Nov 27, 2014)

major said:


> First off, EnerDel is not LiFePO4. And I don't know what you mean by an EnerDel 49.2V/160A module. The EnerDel standard module consist of 24 cells of 2 in parallel (an element) and 12 of those elements in series for a 2P12S arrangement yielding 44.4V nominal (12 * 3.7V/c) and 31 to 35 Ah. The Ah rating will depend on the cell type which ranges from 15.5 to 17.5 Ah/c. Depending on the cell type they can deliver up to 20C.
> 
> You can rearrange the cell connections on the EnerDel modules for different S/P configurations. This is shown on the Evolve website. However 12 elements in parallel will stress the standard module hardware, IMO, unless they are to be used in very low C applications.


keep hitting me man, thanks, I'll do some more digging on their webpage. I meant to attach this picture to my previous post, but this is what I was going off of.


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## akseminole (Jan 5, 2014)

Since I am thinking about it right now.

Could you use reversing contactors to split a 96v battery bank into a 48v parallel bank for charging, or would you be better off physically disconnecting connectors and reconnecting them to splitt the pack that way?

I realize that there are many perfectly good chargers which would charge the 96v pack.

This question has to do with using a 48v solar charge controller to essentially trickle charge the bank. 

I have no illusions about getting enough charge to drive on every day.
More like backup in case I get stranded somewhere.


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