# [EVDL] Questions to Tom About EVette



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

<<< These are the questions that a potential investor will be asking 
as he does
his due diligence. >>>

Wow, Neon, you spent more time on those than all of us combined - you 
think like an investor!

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> [email protected] wrote:
> 
> ><<< These are the questions that a potential investor will be asking
> >as he does
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Hi John,
Goood for you, you found my patent,however you don`t undersrand it yet,it is not a wheelchair,and I have made some improvements all of witch I have the rights to because I hold the original patent.The turn you saw makes my point ,the car is very lite ,much less than a conversion.I have been driving this car for years it runs great.The car goes 25mph on 20amps at a 120volts,500lbs of batteries, with deep cycle lead batteries.The battery co. states the batteries will go a 150min at 20amps.do the math. The car has been driven 60mph.I don`t even use a joystick anymore I have something better,also the car car has left and right brake.One last thing,its not about me, its about the people who can`t aford to feed their kids because they can`t aford the gas or the car.
Tom Sines


-----Original Message-----
>From: Neon John <[email protected]>
>Sent: May 28, 2008 11:33 PM
>To: [email protected]
>Subject: [EVDL] Questions to Tom About EVette
>
>	
>Tom,
>
>I wasn't on the list when the last discussion of your vehicle went through so
>I was naturally interested in what it is and what it does. So I went
>googling. I found several sites that basically regurgitate what you say on
>your site, complete with the same old photo of the body sitting in the grass.
>Is it on blocks or on wheels?
>
>I did come across your audio interview with the guy at EV World (I think that
>was the site.) That interview contained much more information than you
>provide on your website and to this list so I listened carefully. It raised a
>couple of questions that I'd like to ask you about.
>
>You said that you have a patent on this vehicle. Being the curious type, I
>looked it up. Patent number 4,527,648, issued on July 9th, 1985. This patent
>basically addresses the re-invention of a joy-stick-controlled electric
>wheelchair but that's an issue with the patent office issuing frivolous
>patents and not with you. In the interview you told the interviewer that you
>had this patent to protect your invention. He commented that it was good that
>you had intellectual property protection and you confirmed that you do.
>
>The only problem is, your patent expired on July 9th, 2005. I checked the
>patent office's FAQ just to make sure that patents still expire after 20
>years.
>
>http://www.uspto.gov/main/faq/p120013.htm
>
>So my question is, why did you allow that prevarication to stand and even
>confirm it? You have no intellectual property protection on anything
>regarding your car. Why say otherwise?
>
>I watched the youtube video of your car on that TV news program. Two things
>caught my attention. One, the motion that the video covered was at best, a
>few hundred feet. That, coupled with the comment during the audio interview
>that you only get to run it "a couple of miles" at a time leads me to ask the
>obvious question. Does this thing actually run? I mean, farther than around
>your block?
>
>Secondly, in the TV video on YouTube when you did the U-turn, I observed the
>front end of the car pogoing like a lowrider on crack, to the point that it
>almost left the ground. Do you not have any suspension control on that big
>caster? Can't you fit a simple shock absorber?
>
>Have you ever run it 200 miles on a charge?
>
>If not, what do you base your mileage claim on?
>
>Have you run it 200 miles total?
>
>How fast have you actually ever driven this vehicle?
>
>During the audio interview, the interviewer asked you about the front wheel.
>You dodged around calling it a caster. Why? You said that there is "some
>other stuff" attached to it. What kind of stuff? Certainly not a shock
>absorber. Why the coyness? The performance during that turn looked just like
>any other caster to me.
>
>During the audio interview, why did you equivocate when the interviewer asked
>you about what kind of batteries and how many were used? You kinda sorta
>mentioned yellow tops but then you backed off.
>
>What kind of batteries and how many does this vehicle use?
>
>What kind of watt-hours/mile does this vehicle exhibit?
>
>A minor question, I saw that big chrome shift lever that's the joy stick that
>you were holding next to the console. Why the huge stick? That would seem to
>me to detract from the controllability, from the inertia of that big knob, if
>nothing else. Industrial quality joysticks are available in the small hundred
>dollar range. Why not use one of those?
>
>Being somewhat familiar with aviation fly by wire concepts, I have a few
>questions regarding your system.
>
>Does your system vary the control authority of the joystick with speed? If
>not, how do you prevent accidental, violent turns caused by bumping the stick
>or simply losing grip on it over a bump?
>
>What precautions are taken in the control system to prevent a faulty pot (or
>hall effect sensor or whatever you're using) or broken wire from commanding
>one motor full forward and the other full backward, an event that would be
>fairly terminal at speed?
>
>Does this vehicle even have 4 quadrant control or is it two
>quadrant-with-brakes?
>
>What design features does your control system have to prevent violent turn
>maneuvers at speed in the event of loss of control of one motor? Either a
>fuse blows and one motor loses power completely or a controller fails, shorts
>and locks the armature of one motor. Either event would result in a violent
>turn maneuver if not mitigated against.
>
>If there is a microprocessor between the joystick and the controllers, is
>there at least one level of redundancy, eg, two or more processors backing
>each other up?
>
>Last but not least, why are you using a name that fairly obviously infringes
>on GM's trademark for anything 'Vette? Surely you know that if you go forward
>with this vehicle into a commercial enterprise, GM is going to slap you down.
>They really don't have any other choice if they desire to protect their
>trademark.
>
>Enough questions to keep you busy for awhile.
>
>These are the questions that a potential investor will be asking as he does
>his due diligence. The part about claiming to have intellectual property
>protection while not actually having it is particularly troubling. You may
>not desire to answer questions posed to you on a mere mailing list but I
>suspect that any number of folks who are interested in EVs and have sufficient
>financial resources to back a project like this are "reading the mail" on this
>list. Even if they're not, a quick google will turn up my and other's
>questions along these lines.
>
>Standing by,
>
>John
>
>
>
>
>--
>John De Armond
>See my website for my current email address
>http://www.neon-john.com
>http://www.johndearmond.com <-- best little blog on the net!
>Tellico Plains, Occupied TN
>Beware the lollipop of mediocrity. Lick once and you suck forever.
>
>_______________________________________________
>For subscription options, see
>http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

On Thu, 29 May 2008 01:57:44 -0400 (GMT-04:00), "Tom S."


> <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> >Hi John,
> >Goood for you, you found my patent,however you don`t undersrand it yet,it is not a wheelchair,and I have made some improvements all of witch I have the rights to because I hold the original patent.
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Hi John,
You are absolutely right, one thing at a time. My first claim:The EVette is very lite a about a 1000lbs without batteries, and has enough room for 40 batteries,also the car has a very substantial frame.Now your rebuttal Please!
Tom Sines

-----Original Message-----
>From: Neon John <[email protected]>
>Sent: May 29, 2008 5:51 AM
>To: "Tom S." <[email protected]>, Electric Vehicle Discussion List <[email protected]>
>Subject: Re: [EVDL] Questions to Tom About EVette
>
>On Thu, 29 May 2008 01:57:44 -0400 (GMT-04:00), "Tom S."


> ><[email protected]> wrote:
> >
> >>Hi John,
> >>Goood for you, you found my patent,however you don`t undersrand it yet,it is not a wheelchair,and I have made some improvements all of witch I have the rights to because I hold the original patent.
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

That has to be the lamest "comeback" I have ever, ever seen. Tom, you got
pwned. Your claims don't pencil out even with grossly unrealistic
assumptions. You've (obviously) never driven your creation 20 miles at one
time, let alone 200. You have no actual real-life data to back up your
claims - despite having had plenty of time to run the real world tests. You
don't have a valid patent on anything. If your Evette actually could do
what you claim, you'd do it, not just claim it. You haven't done it. Q.E.D.




> Tom S. wrote:
> >
> > Hi John,
> > You are absolutely right, one thing at a time. My first claim:The EVette
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Tom,
I have been trying to figure out why you are posting.
If you aren't going to say anything useful or demo the car, stop
wasting the bandwidth.



> Tom S. <[email protected]> wrote:
> > Hi John,
> > You are absolutely right, one thing at a time. My first claim:The EVette is very lite a about a 1000lbs without batteries, and has enough room for 40 batteries,also the car has a very substantial frame.Now your rebuttal Please!
> > Tom Sines
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Hi Steve,
You would have a point,if the car wasn`t IN MY BACK YARD, And we just came back from Green Earth Expo in Orlando Fla. We were there 4 days, the car was seen by thousands of people. I spoke to many of them about the weight of the car,My reply was always the same.I nudge the car and it easily moves.You can`t do that with a lead sled.
Tom Sines

-----Original Message-----
>From: Steve Condie <[email protected]>
>Sent: May 29, 2008 11:51 AM
>To: [email protected]
>Subject: Re: [EVDL] Questions to Tom About EVette
>
>
>That has to be the lamest "comeback" I have ever, ever seen. Tom, you got
>pwned. Your claims don't pencil out even with grossly unrealistic
>assumptions. You've (obviously) never driven your creation 20 miles at one
>time, let alone 200. You have no actual real-life data to back up your
>claims - despite having had plenty of time to run the real world tests. You
>don't have a valid patent on anything. If your Evette actually could do
>what you claim, you'd do it, not just claim it. You haven't done it. Q.E.D.
>
>


> >Tom S. wrote:
> >>
> >> Hi John,
> >> You are absolutely right, one thing at a time. My first claim:The EVette
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Hi Storm,
Your car has 18 batteries and curb weight of over 3000lbs, whats your point.
Tom Sines

-----Original Message-----
>From: storm connors <[email protected]>
>Sent: May 29, 2008 10:20 AM
>To: "Tom S." <[email protected]>, Electric Vehicle Discussion List <[email protected]>
>Subject: Re: [EVDL] Questions to Tom About EVette
>
>Tom,
>I have been trying to figure out why you are posting.
>If you aren't going to say anything useful or demo the car, stop
>wasting the bandwidth.
>
>


> Tom S. <[email protected]> wrote:
> >> Hi John,
> >> You are absolutely right, one thing at a time. My first claim:The EVette is very lite a about a 1000lbs without batteries, and has enough room for 40 batteries,also the car has a very substantial frame.Now your rebuttal Please!
> >> Tom Sines
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Tom,

According to the interview quoted on
http://gadgets.qj.net/tags/Tom-Sines/7869, the Evette has at least 24
12-volt batteries. You mention in your postings that the weight without
batteries is 1000lbs and with the batteries is 1500lbs. This calculates to
an approximate battery weight of 20lbs/battery.

Could you share the specifics of the batteries? Specifically the battery
chemistry, manufacturer, and amp-hour ratings?

Thanks in advance,
Barry

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]]On Behalf
Of Tom S.
Sent: Thursday, May 29, 2008 12:24 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Questions to Tom About EVette


Hi Storm,
Your car has 18 batteries and curb weight of over 3000lbs, whats your point.
Tom Sines

-----Original Message-----
>From: storm connors <[email protected]>
>Sent: May 29, 2008 10:20 AM
>To: "Tom S." <[email protected]>, Electric Vehicle Discussion List
<[email protected]>
>Subject: Re: [EVDL] Questions to Tom About EVette
>
>Tom,
>I have been trying to figure out why you are posting.
>If you aren't going to say anything useful or demo the car, stop
>wasting the bandwidth.
>
>


> Tom S. <[email protected]> wrote:
> >> Hi John,
> >> You are absolutely right, one thing at a time. My first claim:The EVette
> is very lite a about a 1000lbs without batteries, and has enough room for 40
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Round and round, here we go, were it stops, no body knows...............
Next............



> Tom S. <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> > Hi Storm,
> > Your car has 18 batteries and curb weight of over 3000lbs, whats your
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Just a few reminders to all involved in this thread.

First, don't forget to keep it civil. Demonstrating that figures don't and 
can't prove out (if indeed that be the case) is being civil. Calling people 
liars (or stating or implying that they are lying) is not. Save that label 
for people in prison, convicted of fraud. 

Second, at some point (which is no doubt approaching) the discussion may 
become a waste of time. When this topic was previously discussed, attempts 
to examine and/or refute claims resulted in little more than louder 
restatements of the same claims. I hope that this time the outcome is 
different, but I suggest that if you value your time, you consider carefully 
whether your responses in this thread are really effecting anything that's 
worth the expenditure of that time - and the list bandwidth.

Finally, quite a few of the mail software and webmail developers have been 
around the net for a while. They've learned to deal with the varied 
membership of newsgroups and mailing lists, and that's why they generously 
gave us mail filters. Most EVDL threads contain good information, but now 
and then the best response to one is to filter on the subject or the name of 
a particular sender, and route those messages to the bit bucket.

David Roden
EVDL Administrator
http://www.evdl.org/


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Hi John,
> You are absolutely right, one thing at a time. My first claim:The EVette
> is very lite a about a 1000lbs without batteries, and has enough room for
> 40 batteries,also the car has a very substantial frame.Now your rebuttal
> Please!

It's EASY to custom build a 1,000 lb vehicle, especially when you give up
all of the safety features normally found in conversions. You know, side
impact beams, roll over protection, airbags, 5 mph bumpers, crumple zones,
etc. etc. etc.

These things add weight. It's easy to build a MOTORCYCLE that doesn't
have them, but disingenious to compare the two and say yours is better
simply because it's lighter.

FWIW the Sunrise II project is a four wheeled car and has a target weight
of 1,000 lbs (without batteries) and will INCLUDE many of the features
your motorcycle is missing.

Not only that but it doesn't bounce around like a tweaker for no apparent
reason.

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Hi John,
At least you now understand this car is very lite.Good for you.Now , this car has a full cady type suspension with over load springs.Also if you`ll notice the seats right next to those very large tires. As for airbags,5mph bumpers,and crumple zones,this is a motorcycle.HELLO.
Tom Sines

-----Original Message-----
>From: Peter VanDerWal <[email protected]>
>Sent: May 29, 2008 11:53 AM
>To: "Tom S." <[email protected]>, Electric Vehicle Discussion List <[email protected]>
>Subject: Re: [EVDL] Questions to Tom About EVette
>
>> Hi John,
>> You are absolutely right, one thing at a time. My first claim:The EVette
>> is very lite a about a 1000lbs without batteries, and has enough room for
>> 40 batteries,also the car has a very substantial frame.Now your rebuttal
>> Please!
>
>It's EASY to custom build a 1,000 lb vehicle, especially when you give up
>all of the safety features normally found in conversions. You know, side
>impact beams, roll over protection, airbags, 5 mph bumpers, crumple zones,
>etc. etc. etc.
>
>These things add weight. It's easy to build a MOTORCYCLE that doesn't
>have them, but disingenious to compare the two and say yours is better
>simply because it's lighter.
>
>FWIW the Sunrise II project is a four wheeled car and has a target weight
>of 1,000 lbs (without batteries) and will INCLUDE many of the features
>your motorcycle is missing.
>
>Not only that but it doesn't bounce around like a tweaker for no apparent
>reason.
>
>_______________________________________________
>For subscription options, see
>http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Hey,

Sunrise II is actually 1650 lbs without batteries. That's still
extremely good for a 4-passenger car with safety features, though!

-Morgan LaMoore



> Peter VanDerWal <[email protected]> wrote:
> >> Hi John,
> >> You are absolutely right, one thing at a time. My first claim:The EVette
> >> is very lite a about a 1000lbs without batteries, and has enough room for
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Hey Morgan,
The EVette has a rather substantial roll cage. and I`m hard to hit next to those large wheels. I`ve noticed evervone here talking has never even seen the EVette. must be nice to know everything without even seeing it.
Tom Sines

-----Original Message-----
>From: Morgan LaMoore <[email protected]>
>Sent: May 29, 2008 7:24 PM
>To: [email protected], Electric Vehicle Discussion List <[email protected]>
>Subject: Re: [EVDL] Questions to Tom About EVette
>
>Hey,
>
>Sunrise II is actually 1650 lbs without batteries. That's still
>extremely good for a 4-passenger car with safety features, though!
>
>-Morgan LaMoore
>
>


> Peter VanDerWal <[email protected]> wrote:
> >>> Hi John,
> >>> You are absolutely right, one thing at a time. My first claim:The EVette
> >>> is very lite a about a 1000lbs without batteries, and has enough room for
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Tom, I'd like to apologize for the harsh tone of my last post, and explain
why I wrote what I did the way that I did. First, let me say that I find
EVette to be an impressive piece of work - very cool. I have my doubts
about its stability and safety, but I'd be willing to learn differently, if
my concerns are misplaced.

But... I hate it when people make performance claims about their EV's based
on calculations, projections, etc. I hate it because they are never
achieved in the real world. (A lot of the time the "EV's" touted like that
don't even exist.) You have an actual EV that you've had running for quite
a while now, long enough to have performed sufficient real world experiments
with to have actual data - not calculations, not projections, not estimates,
but real world measurements. You want to claim 200 miles range? Fine. 
Call me when you've driven the 200 miles without a charge. You want to
claim 1 hour recharge? Fine - post your results after your actually done
it. But not until then. And watching you tout the performance claims for
your EV to credulous media types is an irritant because it's just one more
thing which detracts from EV's already tarnished reputation. Out there in
"the real world" there are real people who have, from ignorance, assumed
that the performance numbers you quote are actually attainable in vehicles
built in tinkerer's garages with readily obtainable batteries, etc. But
they're not. And when those "real people" learn that they overreact against
the real limitations of EV's, instead of figuring out ways to work with
them. So making unrealistic performance claims is an affront to every EV
enthusiast who is working to get EV's on the road.

If I were king of the EV world I'd decree that anyone who claims that their
EV can outperform what a standard EV-Blue Chevrolectric S-10 can do has to
post a video of the actual performance or be sentenced to sit behind an
idling gasser with bad rings and breathe deeply for an hour.

You'd probably have gotten a much friendlier reception here if you hadn't
hit the ground making claims that people who have been around real,
operational EV's for a while know can't be realized with the technology
available to you. But starting off from a point of severely compromised
credibility just made you the butt of jokes, no matter how cool EVette is. 
So my advice is: either charge up EVette's batteries and take it for a 200
mile drive, or stop claiming that range. 




-- 
View this message in context: http://www.nabble.com/Questions-to-Tom-About-EVette-tp17527038p17567847.html
Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

On Fri, 30 May 2008 06:44:58 -0400 (GMT-04:00), "Tom S."


> <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> >Hey Morgan,
> >The EVette has a rather substantial roll cage. and I`m hard to hit next to those large wheels. I`ve noticed evervone here talking has never even seen the EVette. must be nice to know everything without even seeing it.
> ...


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