# [EVDL] Blown HV fuse for DC-DC converter, why?



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> corbin dunn wrote:
> 
> > When driving home Monday night my 12 volt accessory battery
> > died. The 20 amp, 1000v DC fuse for the IOTA 55amp DC-DC
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> corbin dunn wrote:
> > When driving home Monday night my 12 volt accessory battery died. The
> > 20 amp, 1000v DC fuse for the IOTA 55amp DC-DC converter blew, and it
> > wasn't charging the battery. The high voltage (HV) positive for the
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Lee's excellent write up on the Iota,
http://www.evdl.org/pages/iotamods.html


----- Original Message ----
From: Lee Hart <[email protected]>
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <[email protected]>
Sent: Wed, February 2, 2011 12:29:07 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Blown HV fuse for DC-DC converter, why?



> corbin dunn wrote:
> > When driving home Monday night my 12 volt accessory battery died. The
> > 20 amp, 1000v DC fuse for the IOTA 55amp DC-DC converter blew, and it
> > wasn't charging the battery. The high voltage (HV) positive for the
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> On 2 Feb 2011 at 9:26, Roger Stockton wrote:
> 
> > If you search the archives, you should find a comprehensive post by Lee
> > Hart describing modifications required to make the Iota (and similar)
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Roger Stockton wrote:
> >> If you search the archives, you should find a comprehensive post by Lee
> >> Hart describing modifications required to make the Iota (and similar)
> >> *power supplies* survive in the role of DC/DC in a conversion.
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Hi Lee,



> Lee Hart <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> > corbin dunn wrote:
> > > When driving home Monday night my 12 volt accessory battery died. The
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> corbin dunn wrote:
> > Thanks! I had previously read your page at:
> > http://www.evdl.org/pages/iotamods.html Unfortunately, I'm too much
> > of an electronics newbie to really know what to do... I'm unsure what
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Thanks Lee!

I'll post photos to my website once I get it done so we can have other
people replicate the instructions.

--corbin




> Lee Hart <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> > corbin dunn wrote:
> > > Thanks! I had previously read your page at:
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Lee Hart wrote:
> 
> > corbin dunn wrote:
> >> Thanks! I had previously read your page at:
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Hi Corbin,

That is a lovely looking car and a nice neat looking conversion.

Thanks for taking the trouble to post your pics of the Iota fix - 
others will find them helpful, I'm sure.

On your comment about replacing the Iota's caps... If I understand 
your blog correctly you have 48 x TS LFP160 cells wired in series. 
Although the 'nominal' voltage of the pack is only 48 * 3.2 = 153.6V, 
the charger could raise that to well over 180V (48 x 3.8V) easy. I 
understand that for reliability you shouldn't take caps to more than 
half their rated voltage. So you may want to reconsider changing them 
out for higher spec'ed ones if the opportunity arrises. They are not 
esp expensive and, as you know, breaking down is a PITA!

Regards, Martin Winlow
Herts, UK
http://www.evalbum.com/2092
www.winlow.co.uk



> corbin dunn wrote:
> 
> >
> > On Feb 2, 2011, at 11:21 AM, Lee Hart wrote:
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

It is not common to *double* the working voltage of electrolytes,
but giving it a 20% margin is a good idea.
So, if you know the charger takes the voltage up to 180V or higher
and your DC/DC will see this voltage, then it may help to
increase the 200V caps to 225V versions, but it is not required.
I know of an EV'er who had a 192V AGM pack and even he used 
an Iota.
It only failed when he forgot to unplug his DC/DC while
charging his 192V pack, it was doing OK if he only plugged it
in some time after the charger was done, even though you can
easily see that a 192V pack will sit at around 16 x 13V = 208V,
but when charging AGMs the voltage can go to 16x15V = 240V!

Apparently the Iota has more margin than just the 200V minimum.

Regards,

Cor van de Water
Director HW & Systems Architecture Group
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
Email: [email protected] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [email protected]
Tel: +1 408 383 7626 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Tel: +91 (040)23117400 x203 XoIP: +31877841130

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On
Behalf Of Martin WINLOW
Sent: Tuesday, February 08, 2011 3:33 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Blown HV fuse for DC-DC converter, why?

Hi Corbin,

That is a lovely looking car and a nice neat looking conversion.

Thanks for taking the trouble to post your pics of the Iota fix - others
will find them helpful, I'm sure.

On your comment about replacing the Iota's caps... If I understand 
your blog correctly you have 48 x TS LFP160 cells wired in series. 
Although the 'nominal' voltage of the pack is only 48 * 3.2 = 153.6V,
the charger could raise that to well over 180V (48 x 3.8V) easy. I
understand that for reliability you shouldn't take caps to more than
half their rated voltage. So you may want to reconsider changing them
out for higher spec'ed ones if the opportunity arrises. They are not
esp expensive and, as you know, breaking down is a PITA!

Regards, Martin Winlow
Herts, UK
http://www.evalbum.com/2092
www.winlow.co.uk



> corbin dunn wrote:
> 
> >
> > On Feb 2, 2011, at 11:21 AM, Lee Hart wrote:
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Hi Martin -- thanks for the advice; you are right, I am using 48 of TS LFP200 cells, and if I did charge them to 4.0v each that would be 192 volts, which might be cutting it close! The DC-DC charger is not connected to the pack when charging; only when I turn on the key, closing my negative side contactor. I will look into replacing them sometime in the near future.

--corbin



> Martin WINLOW wrote:
> 
> > Hi Corbin,
> >
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Hi Lee, So they are still needed with DC only AND at a good 300V 
rating (for 120V nominal system) but only 1/10th the capacitance? 
That would make the replacements a LOT cheaper than replacing with the 
same cap but 300V rating, yes? MW



> Lee Hart wrote:
> 
> > On 2/8/2011 4:02 AM, Martin WINLOW wrote:
> >> Corbin... On your comment about replacing the Iota's caps... If I
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Lee Hart wrote:
> 
> > On 2/7/2011 11:31 PM, corbin dunn wrote:
> >> Lee - Thanks again for the help on this! I got some CL-40s last
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> 
>


> Lee Hart wrote:
> >
> >> On 2/7/2011 11:31 PM, corbin dunn wrote:
> >>> Lee - Thanks again for the help on this! I got some CL-40s last
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

On 2/10/2011 9:56 PM, corbin dunn wrote:
>
>


> Lee Hart wrote:
> >
> >> On 2/7/2011 11:31 PM, corbin dunn wrote:
> >>> Lee - Thanks again for the help on this! I got some CL-40s last
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Lee Hart wrote:
> 
> > On 2/10/2011 9:56 PM, corbin dunn wrote:
> >>
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Hi Corbin,

Good for you!
Brush up on that EE and soon you will be able to
give the *answers* to these questions!

Let's see if we can guesstimate some advice from
the data that you gave - please go ahead and try
to find the actual data ( =measurement ) but for now:

You have a 55Amp power supply, so it will be able to
deliver up to 55A x 14V = 770W
Since it will likely be around 80% efficient, it will
likely consume not more than 770/0.8 = 960W
At your pack voltage, this is max 7A so you should be
able to measure it to verify!
(You said you were driving at night, so switch on your
lights and everything else that you were running to
see the same consumption.)

Now what can have caused your NTC to fail?
- was it specified to have some airflow and the
place where you mounted it was enclosed, so it
got too hot?
- the hot-resistance was too high, so at up to 7A
continuous the dissipation was too high at the NTC
and the NTC got damaged?
- the inrush current caused a temperature spike above
the device rating, so it broke down?
- other failure (mechanical, wrong part?)

Let's see with the 5 Ohm device you suggested:
If you use 1 to protect the Iota then it will cause
a current spike of 150V / 5 Ohm = 30A and although
this will be a staggering 30A x 150V = 4.5kW at the
moment of closing the contact, it will likely charge 
the Iota input cap within 5 ms according to the
formula: I x t = V x C
(Current times Time equals Voltage(change) times Capacitance)
assuming the Iota input cap no more than 1000uF this leads
to a time of (150 x 0.001)/30 = 5 millisec.
This reduces the energy of the 4.5kW spike to 4500 x 0.005 = 23J
and because the device is specified for 100J you should be fine.
You see in the spec that at 120V it is recommended to use no
more than 6000uF while at 240V this device should charge up
no more than 1500uF capacitance - that is the limit of the
max Joule spec...
Note that the above calculatoin is for a single device
in line with your Iota, so having two devices in series
(one in each power lead) will cause the current to be half
but also the time to double...

So since the Energy is fine, let's see what else:
Continuous current?
The datasheet even has a nice table for the different
current and steady state dissipation. You see that at
7A it will eventually reach 5.7 Watts of dissipation.
At lower current the dissipation will go down.

What is the difference between your failing Iota and the
decription on the EVDL?
What I see in the Iotamods description is the suggestion to
use CL30 which has 0.06 Ohm resistance at 100% load (8A)
http://www.ge-mcs.com/download/temperature/920_325a.pdf
You used CL40 which has 0.11 Ohm resistance at 100% load
(6A) so if I understand it right, you used a part with
double the resistance in series with a load that has a
larger power draw (heavier Iota).
So the result is that the NTCs will run hotter (double
the resistance is double the voltage drop so double the
power dissipated. The higher temp will somewhat counter-act
the higher resistance, but I guess that the basic problem
was that you used a part that is spec'ed for 6A at an
ambient of 25 deg (77F) at a current up to 7A, where I
do not know the ambient temp...
The fact that it de-soldered itself is enough indication
that it got too hot, apparently you need to use the CL30
or an Ametherm or other part that has about the 2.5 Ohm
cold and (more importantly) 0.06 Ohm or lower hot rating
to get the same result as Lee and others have.

Success!

Cor van de Water
Director HW & Systems Architecture Group
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
Email: [email protected] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [email protected]
Tel: +1 408 383 7626 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Tel: +91 (040)23117400 x203 XoIP: +31877841130

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On
Behalf Of corbin dunn
Sent: Friday, February 11, 2011 11:29 AM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Blown HV fuse for DC-DC converter, why?




> Lee Hart wrote:
> 
> > On 2/10/2011 9:56 PM, corbin dunn wrote:
> >>
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Ametherm makes excellent parts,
http://www.ametherm.com/Data%20Sheets/MS32%205R020.pdf


----- Original Message ----
From: corbin dunn <[email protected]>
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <[email protected]>
Sent: Fri, February 11, 2011 12:59:09 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Blown HV fuse for DC-DC converter, why?




> Lee Hart wrote:
> 
> > On 2/10/2011 9:56 PM, corbin dunn wrote:
> >>
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Cor/Lee/Rod - thanks for the help!

It looks like my best bet is to get two CL-30s instead of the CL-40s; those will have a slightly higher amp rating (8amps) and less resistance when hot (0.06 Ohm). 

Lee -- I'm also looking at ordering electrolytics. I did a search for 330uf 250v ones, and here are a few that may fit the bill. Is there a particular Ripple Current rating I should look for?

http://search.digikey.com/scripts/DkSearch/dksus.dll?Detail&name=P6581-ND
http://search.digikey.com/scripts/DkSearch/dksus.dll?Detail&name=493-1421-ND

I'll probably have to go home and measure the size of my existing electrolytics, so I'll probably just order the CL30s first, unless you happen to remember the ones you used in your conversion.

Thanks!
corbin




> Lee Hart wrote:
> 
> > On 2/11/2011 6:24 AM, Cor van de Water wrote:
> >> Let's see if we can guesstimate some advice from
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Jeff from Evnetics pointed out something to me the other day that I hadn't
though about . If you have your hi voltage wires from you DC to DC or your
charger close too the input wires on your controller , this could cause the
caps to see the High frequency ripple caused by the controller . The long
cables to the controller act like an inductor . Hooking the DC to Dc and
Charger close to the batteries Will help this as they won't see the ripple
from the cables. .

Steve Clunn



>. Next, pick one with the highest
the ripple current rating. This means picking a series advertised as
having a low ESR, high ripple current rating, and being intended for
switching power supplies.
--
Lee A. Hart | Ring the bells ......>>>>>
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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Steve Clunn wrote:
> > Jeff from Evnetics pointed out something to me the other day that I hadn't
> > though about . If you have your hi voltage wires from you DC to DC or your
> > charger close too the input wires on your controller , this could cause the
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Hi Steve,

I would the input caps of the controller to suppress
any High Frequent ripple, so the cabling from pack to
controller may see some sag and some lower frequency
ripple (especially with AC drive), but not much High Frequent.
On the motor side however, you will see the full
pack voltage being chopped to average motor voltage and
the current is even higher here...
That is why you better install the controller as close
to the motor as practical.

Regards,

Cor van de Water
Director HW & Systems Architecture Group
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
Email: [email protected] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [email protected]
Tel: +1 408 383 7626 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Tel: +91 (040)23117400 x203 XoIP: +31877841130

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On
Behalf Of Steve Clunn
Sent: Sunday, February 13, 2011 8:07 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: [EVDL] Blown HV fuse for DC-DC converter, why?

Jeff from Evnetics pointed out something to me the other day that I
hadn't though about . If you have your hi voltage wires from you DC to
DC or your charger close too the input wires on your controller , this
could cause the caps to see the High frequency ripple caused by the
controller . The long cables to the controller act like an inductor .
Hooking the DC to Dc and Charger close to the batteries Will help this
as they won't see the ripple from the cables. .

Steve Clunn



>. Next, pick one with the highest
the ripple current rating. This means picking a series advertised as
having a low ESR, high ripple current rating, and being intended for
switching power supplies.
--
Lee A. Hart | Ring the bells ......>>>>>
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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Jeffrey Jenkins wrote:
> > Practically speaking, there are way too many variables in play here
> > to make any definitive predictions on whether an accessory device
> > will survive being connected to the battery pack at any given
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Hi All,

As a follow up to this problem: I replaced the CL-40s with two CL-30s about 3 weeks ago. I turned on the headlights and watched the temperature of the limiter rise to see how high it got...of course, I forget the number now, but it was well below the melting point of solder. It seems the toroid next to was getting hotter than the limiter itself was; I used a Harbor Freight infrared thermometer to test the temperature. I also cut my case on the DC-DC converter and put a little 12v fan directly over the inrush limiter and toroid to add in additional cooling.

So far, so good - I've got about 250 miles on the car.

I'll do a follow up posting on my blog at some point with more pictures ( http://corbinstreehouse.com )

-corbin




> corbin dunn wrote:
> 
> > Cor/Lee/Rod - thanks for the help!
> >
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

I'll have to go back and look at this thread more closely to see if it 
provides significant new information, but for those using Iota power 
supplies as DCC converters, the EVDL library has a fairly detailed 
description of Lee's suggested Iota modifications.

http://www.evdl.org/pages/iotamods.html

If someone who has one of these units has the time to work up a parts list 
with sources, I'll add that to the page.

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Hi David,
Yes, it would be great if you could update the page! Long story short: CL-30 inrush limiter seems to work better than the CL-40 for my application.

I took pictures, and included part references and more pictures on my website:

http://www.corbinstreehouse.com/blog/2011/02/plug-bug-iota-dc-dc-converter-fix/

Feel free to copy images and or any information from there. I had seen the page on EVDL, however, I wasn't sure exactly what to do until Lee gave me some more insight.

corbin




> EVDL Administrator wrote:
> 
> > I'll have to go back and look at this thread more closely to see if it
> > provides significant new information, but for those using Iota power
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Hi Lee,
<snip>
> 
>> It seems the toroid next to [it] was getting hotter than the limiter
>> itself was
> 
> The big one, or the small one? The small one should be fine. The big one
> does run hot. They used considerably undersized wire for it (they
> expected two strands of #14 to carry 55 amps).

Well, as you said the infrared thermometer makes it hard to pinpoint what you are measuring the temperature of something. I was pointing it at the small toroid, however, it is right in front of the big toroid, and could have been measuring the heat from it. A picture can be seen here:

http://www.corbinstreehouse.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2011/02/IMG_0641.jpg

I checked my notes; it was getting up to ~190 F.

I'll report back when I have 25,000 miles . I'm 1/25 the way there.

corbin

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Lee and others,

Can the CL30s be used on other devices? I use a Vicor power supply as
my DC-DC and was wondering of these would be useful on the input. The
Vicor is not for 120 or 240 only, it is a PFC unit that will take any
voltage in the whole range (I believe around 100 to 300 VDC). Works
very nice. It fused on both the pos and neg pack leads, but it is also
pretty close to the pack. Not a lot of wire between it and at least
one side of the pack.

DAC

On Fri, Mar 18, 2011 at 2:32 PM, corbin dunn


> <[email protected]> wrote:
> > Hi Lee,
> > <snip>
> >>
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Hi DAC,

IMHO, If you aren't blowing fuses, then you may not need to do anything. That is the sole reason I did this upgrade, and it possibly only applies to IOTAs. Also, Justin at Evolve Electrics has been discussing the problem with IOTA and they are working on fixing the issue to allow it to work better in EVs. Apparently their DLS-90 already has some type of inrush limiter installed and doesn't have this problem.

-corbin



> dave cover wrote:
> 
> > Lee and others,
> >
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> On 18 Mar 2011 at 11:28, corbin dunn wrote:
> 
> > CL-30 inrush limiter seems to work better than the CL-40 for my
> > application.
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> corbin dunn wrote:
> >> CL-30 inrush limiter seems to work better than the CL-40 for my
> >> application.
> 
> ...


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