# Flooded Lead Acid Calculations - Range/Performance



## TexomaEV (Jul 26, 2007)

A consolidation of notes from Kitty Rodden's presentation to the Peninsula Chapter of the Electric Auto Association, by David Coale. 


*What battery should I use in my EV?*


This is the age old question; what battery should I put in my EV? There is no standard answer to this, it depends on what you want out of your EV. The old rule of "thumb" if you will, is the more lead the greater the range and the poorer the performance due to the increase in weight. It is also true that the higher the voltage the better the performance (acceleration and top end speed). This is of course also dependent on the type of driving and on the controller. Since these are fixed for any given EV, these generalizations are not too far off. Two designs illustrate this:

Long range: 96 to 120 volt system using 6 volt deep cycle batteries. This will give you lots of amp hours and weigh 976 to 1420 bls. This type of battery pack should last two to three years depending on the type of driving.

High performance: 96 to 144 and up using 12 volt batteries. If you use a starting battery your car will be light (400 to 700 bls.) and quick and your batteries will last about 3 to 6 months or less. If you use deep cycle batteries (12V) your batteries can last as long as one and a half to two years but the car may be heavier depending on the battery.

So what is the range in each case? Isn't that what we want to know; how far will my EV go? Answering this will help you decide what battery you will use.

To find out how far a particular battery pack will take us, we need to know how much energy is in the pack and how much energy the EV uses per mile.

Range = Energy in pack / (energy used per mile)

The energy in the battery pack (wired in series) is the amp hour rating times the pack voltage. The amp hour rating is how may amps a battery can supply over a given time. Most batteries are measured over a 20 hour period. This is a standard that is used to compare batteries with, and can be found in the specs. on most batteries. The 20 amp hour rating has to be adjusted for EV use. The faster one draws current from a battery the less capacity there will be. This is due to the chemistry of the battery and the internal resistance. Therefore the capacity of a battery at the 20 hour rate is more then the capacity at the 1 hour (EV) rate. The following is a table from Trojan Battery Company showing the conversion factor for finding the X hour rate given the 20 hour rate:

Conversion of 20 hour rate to X hr rate. 

X hr Conversion 
rate factor 

1 .57 = Most commonly used value
2 .67 
3 .74 
4 .77 
5 .82 
6 .84 
7 .86
8 .87 
9 .89 
10 .91 
20 1.00 

Note: these values will be a little different for each battery.
One can see from the table above that as you drive faster the range will decrease due to reduced available capacity. This does not take into account wind resistance which also increases with speed.

Now we need to know the energy or watt hours per mile that your EV gets. The table below lists some common EVs and their watt hours per mile rating.

Impact = 130 W-hr/mi (AC drive very good aerodynamics)
Metro = 160 W-hr/mi (PM drive good aerodynamics)
Metro = 200 W-hr/mi (DC drive good aerodynamics)
Truck = 350 W-hr/mi (DC drive poor aerodynamics)

This table was developed using several cars for each category traveling at highway speeds (60 mph). The numbers reflect the efficiency of the cars listed. With the following information the range equation for a smaller type of EV on the freeway would be:


*RANGE = (20 amp/hr rating) X (.57) X (pack voltage) / (watt hours per mile of the vehicle)*


Note: The above is the range @ 100% DOD, Divide that amount by 2, to get a 50% DOD range on your battery pack, I would try and not go lower than 50% DOD in order to maximize the life of your Flooded Lead Acid batteries. AGM/Gels might be more forgiving.


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## rbgrn (Jul 24, 2007)

Wanna post this on the wiki somewhere?


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## Mannyman (Jul 26, 2007)

> A consolidation of notes from Kitty Rodden's presentation to the Peninsula Chapter of the Electric Auto Association, by David Coale.
> 
> *What battery should I use in my EV?*


So how accurate was this in light of your experience with your conversion?


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## TexomaEV (Jul 26, 2007)

Pretty accurate, my current battery pack calculates out at this:

210ah x .57 x 78 = 9336.6 pack energy
divided by 250 whr = 37.35 miles

I typically only drive 20 miles per charge, and that is only at city street speeds (35mph), therefore I'm not at the 50% DOD of my pack in that 20miles. I don't drive highway speeds much, since this conversion is only with a 78volt pack. It's pretty hard on the batteries, controller, motor driving the the car at 65 miles and hour for long.

Someday, I hope to take the EV Technician course in Oklahoma, so I can legally build a higher voltage EV. Just don't have the time and money to dedicate to the class right now.


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## Coley (Jul 26, 2007)

You have to be licensed to build a higher voltage car??
Please explain.....


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## TexomaEV (Jul 26, 2007)

Yep, in Oklahoma (The only state that I know of that has this law) says you have to hold an EV Technician Certificate. It's part of the "Alternative Fuels Act" they dreampt up for vehicles that run on Propane, Compressed Natural Gas, and Electric. Of course this is not a FREE certificate. Word is, someone blew themselves up with an improperly built propane conversion, and therefore the AF act was born, which some yahoo politician (probably oil bribed -IMHO) included EV's in it.


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## jstack6 (Jul 26, 2007)

Plasmaboy John Wayland swears by the Hawker sealed lead acids. You can push them at high amp loads like C1 and they seem to do very well. 
I have swarn off lead acids batteries. New NiMH and lithium are way ahead. A123 will have packs out for plug-in hybrids next year. Maybe they could be series connected to get the power and range you need for a top EV. 

The new lithium batteries may be expensive but they will move us ahead the fastest. Tesla also is selling their packs to TH!NK who will lease them for their EV. Maybe we will all have that option before long.

The new Miles Javlon will have 120 mile range and the batteries are good for 100,000 miles. At 30K with air, heater and that range it could be a real winner. It's due in late 2008. 

See http://www.evworld.com/news.cfm?new...es,+its+Miles+to+go/2100-11389_3-6201822.html


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## Coley (Jul 26, 2007)

I am afraid that a lot of us will be using the flooded batteries for quite a while because of the cost.
The driving I do, with mine, is not enough to spend large amounts on, just yet.
I do have some questions about getting them charged past the 3/4 charge state.
I built a charger for my 48 volt/10 amp unit that charged them to the 100% level.
Now I am running 72-volts and my old charger is useless.
But now I have bought a 72-volt, 20 amp unit and all it seems to do is get them to 3/4 charge and then tapers off.
An 8 amp charger for the 12-volt vehicle battery is doing the same thing. 
It is supposed to bring the bat to 12-volt and then shut-off.
It only gets to about 4/5 of a charge and then shuts off.
Any ideas other than buying a $500.00 charger?


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## Coley (Jul 26, 2007)

Update...
Today i found a battery with a dead cell as far as taking a charge. Seems it was holding up the pack.

I went to Farm & Fleet for a replacement as it was only 6 months old and had a one year guarantee.

A digital meter showed it to be charged to 12.85 volts.
The counterman said he would put a load on it and see.

The load test came up short of where it should be so I got a new battery.
Funny, the new one showed 12.25 volt charge and had 4 balls floating on the wet tester, on all cells.


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## TexomaEV (Jul 26, 2007)

Yep, This is why I purchased a 100amp load tester at Harbor Freight.com, I've had batteries that show a good charge, yet once under load, they just poop out, and won't pass the grade. These testers aren't expensive, and if you test your batteries in the pack, once a month or so, you'll hopefully find out issues while they are small, and possibly under warranty.


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## Mannyman (Jul 26, 2007)

Doesn't the PakTrakr take care of this testing for you?


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## TexomaEV (Jul 26, 2007)

Yes it does monitor the batteries, but I'm beta testing for Ken, and therefore am using other equipment and tests to confirm what it's telling me. So far, all has been good for the PakTrakr. This little unit is a pretty kewl device. I would like the interface you are working on for the carpc, it would be really nice to get it to work on an ol' PocketPC that would mount nicely on the dash of the car. I have a Jornada 625 pocket pc, with serial inteface if anyone's up to the challenge...... lol


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## Mannyman (Jul 26, 2007)

OK. I guess. 
I was worried for a minute that I bought a product that is still being tested...


Programmer is back from vacation and needs to finish some other project(s). He likes PocketPC devices so who knows...


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## KiwiEV (Jul 26, 2007)

This might interest everyone. 
When choosing a battery, you get a Cold Cranking Amps rating where it displays how much amperage you can get for 30 seconds before the battery starts slumping at -18 degrees Celsius (0 deg Fahrenheit).

That would be a handy rating for those of us driving our EVs in Alaska/Antarctica but if you're like me, you've wondered what that amperage rating equals on a normal summer's day somewhere that has evolved from the Ice-Age.

Well, I found this link where you enter in your battery's details and the _actual_ temperature and whoah! What a difference in performace temperature makes!

The 150 CCA batteries I was looking at (I'm on a budget remember) ended up having more than 250 amps for 30 seconds continuous on a summer's day!
Roll on summer!


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## TexomaEV (Jul 26, 2007)

KiwiEV, be carefull of the batteries you use, and make sure they are truely: DEEPCYCLE batteries. I first attempted to use a DeepCycle/Starting battery that showed CCA amps on it. They lasted 2months and gave me a 11mile range. I woke up and went to true DEEPCYCLE 6vdc Golf Cart batteries, and have much better performance/range now. I'm using some Telco AGM batteries for my motor field pack, and they do a really nice job in that particular application. You certainly don't want to replace batteries very often. Being you're in frozen country, if possible consider placing the batteries inside the vehicle where you could preheat the car with a heater that turns on when you're charging the main pack, keeping the interior of the car and batteries nice and toasty. You should be able to find a thermostatic controlled heater that runs off your house ac wiring, same as your battery chargers, that can do this for you. Once you're driving the EV, the internal resistance of the batteries, and current draw will help keep the batteries warm most likely until you get to your destination. Then plug in to recharge, and your heater will keep the batteries and interior of the car toasty once again.

Now remember, batteries tend to produce hydrogen and oxygen during the charge cycle, so you need to becareful to keep those gases purged out of the vehicle if there's a possible chance of any open arcing of any device during the charge cycle. Your heater could be either an electric blanket over the batteries, an oil based heater, even just a simple high wattage infrared heat lamp.


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## Coley (Jul 26, 2007)

"The 150 CCA batteries I was looking at (I'm on a budget remember) ended up having more than 250 amps for 30 seconds continuous on a summer's day!"

My 12-volt, F & F 24MDC's will put out 1162!!!!


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## KiwiEV (Jul 26, 2007)

Coley said:


> "The 150 CCA batteries I was looking at (I'm on a budget remember) ended up having more than 250 amps for 30 seconds continuous on a summer's day!"
> 
> My 12-volt, F & F 24MDC's will put out 1162!!!!


Show off!


There are lots of rules regarding ventalation with my EV here in NZ. For the batteries in the boot, I must have them sealed in a section with extraction fans and fresh air continuously. The list goes on and on - there are many other things I have to do as well to meet the standards here. 
It's easy to get the impression that EV's are seen as evil by the high-taxing NZ government (Gas tax is 50% of the cost here). I'm sure I'm being dramatic but you can't help but wonder - 25 pages of tight rules and regulations!

While we have a big snowy mountain behind us, my town is at sea level so it never gets to freezing here (although the winters are often long and wet) so I'm not worried about freezing the batteries.








This was taken a couple of months back. Our town is behind the mountain near the sea.

The batteries I was looking at are definitely 12 volt DEEP CYCLE batteries. I've triple checked. They're known as Exide SCS150's here, but in the USA they're sold as Trojan SCS150's.

I'm off to make more cardboard mock ups today (Saturday) and go about fitting them in. I want 6 under the bonnet and 6 in the boot.


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## ohio (Jul 25, 2007)

bonnet boot?


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## KiwiEV (Jul 26, 2007)

ohio said:


> bonnet boot?


Close enough. 
Bonnet = Hood
Boot = Trunk


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## KiwiEV (Jul 26, 2007)

KiwiEV said:


> This might interest everyone.
> When choosing a battery, you get a Cold Cranking Amps rating where it displays how much amperage you can get for 30 seconds before the battery starts slumping at -18 degrees Celsius (0 deg Fahrenheit).
> 
> That would be a handy rating for those of us driving our EVs in Alaska/Antarctica but if you're like me, you've wondered what that amperage rating equals on a normal summer's day somewhere that has evolved from the Ice-Age.
> ...


The batteries I'm using has completely changed - for the better.
I've managed to arrange a discount through my work and now I'll be using Hella Endurant 105 Ah batteries. The best part is the output. I'll be going from 250 WarmCrankingAmps up to 942 WarmCrankingAmps! Woooohoooo!

Of course I'll be limited by the 500Amp controller but even so, 500 amps will moooove the car like a normal engine would. Fantastic!

I'm off to update the website!


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## pflipsen (Jul 19, 2010)

Mannyman said:


> So how accurate was this in light of your experience with your conversion?


It's also fairly accurate with my experience on my conversion (http://www.evalbum.com/1974). 

(110 AH batteries X .57 X 120V pack of 12V AGMs) / 325 Wh/mile * X .5 ** = about 11.6 miles useable range for my conversion.

* this number may seem high for a small car conversion but it's a real world value obtained using actual KwH I need to recharge the pack divided by the distance I have travelled (lower values are often based on some onboard instrument while driving at some constant speed but those numbers rarely account for changes in speed and driving conditions).

** based on 50% DOD which is all you can reasonably expect to draw from AGM batteries


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## EVfun (Mar 14, 2010)

pflipsen said:


> It's also fairly accurate with my experience on my conversion (http://www.evalbum.com/1974).
> 
> (110 AH batteries X .57 X 120V pack of 12V AGMs) / 325 Wh/mile * X .5 ** = about 11.6 miles useable range for my conversion.
> 
> ...


Way pessimistic in my experience. I'm using my EV buggy as it is my only current lead powered EV. It is light, but very non-aerodynamic (this thing makes an aircooled Beetle look streamlined.) A steady 35 mph speed requires a little over 50 amps at a little over 120 volts.

(55 AH x .57 x 120 V pack of Optima YTs) / 325 Wh/mi x 0.5 = 5.8 mile useable range. Real world is more like 14 useable miles (21 city mile drop dead range with new Optimas.) 

I'm looking at closer to 200 watt hours per mile and I find that Optimas can give up about 60% of their available amp hours when determining full range. You can expect to use about 70% of that and have a decent life if your usage is mixed with that point being the highest regularly used.

It is important not to rely on wall power to determine watt hours per mile. Charger losses and battery charging inefficiency losses can't be included into battery Wh/mi because that isn't power isn't used on discharge. I have to admit, buying a cheap used power meter and charging through it is a nice data point, but not for range and DOD calculations.


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## pflipsen (Jul 19, 2010)

EVfun said:


> Way pessimistic in my experience. I'm using my EV buggy as it is my only current lead powered EV. It is light, but very non-aerodynamic (this thing makes an aircooled Beetle look streamlined.) A steady 35 mph speed requires a little over 50 amps at a little over 120 volts.
> 
> 
> 
> Weight difference may be the key here. It's my understanding that drag differences only make a big difference above 40 mph. I draw 80-90 amps at 35 mph with my Plymouth Colt (current curb weight = 2790 lbs; coefficient of drag on original was 0.36 - probably a little better now since I added a belly pan and I inflate my tires harder than recommended).


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## EVfun (Mar 14, 2010)

pflipsen said:


> Weight difference may be the key here. It's my understanding that drag differences only make a big difference above 40 mph. I draw 80-90 amps at 35 mph with my Plymouth Colt (current curb weight = 2790 lbs; coefficient of drag on original was 0.36 - probably a little better now since I added a belly pan and I inflate my tires harder than recommended).


At what voltage? I'm running 120 volts so about 180 watt hours per mile at that speed. My actual driving average is a little higher and goes way up at freeway speeds. The car weighs 1420 lb. with 10 Optimas.


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## pflipsen (Jul 19, 2010)

EVfun said:


> At what voltage? I'm running 120 volts so about 180 watt hours per mile at that speed. My actual driving average is a little higher and goes way up at freeway speeds. The car weighs 1420 lb. with 10 Optimas.


I'm also running 120V. I can do highway speeds but never have a reason to go over 40 mph and try to keep it under 35 (and given my limited range wouldn't want to go faster). I can't measure Wh/mile while driving at the moment; that's also why I do it from the wall. Your EV is about half the weight of mine, so I'm not surprised you get much better range.


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