# [EVDL] Altairnano batteries vaporware?? NOT



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

On Saturday Dec 15th at Speed World Drag Strip in AZ, Altairnano batteries 
powered Dennis Berube's dragster "Current Eliminator 5 " to a new NEDRA record.
Starting with the first run of the day at about 30% power the car ran 10.047 
ET @ 128.71 MPH.
Second run was 9.957 ET @ 129 MPH.
Third run we turned the Zilla up to 40%. Dennis staged the car, came off the 
line strong and when he put his foot in it, the car made a violent left turn 
and spun out and rolled backwards down the drag strip, he didn't hit 
anything and the car was untouched, the crowd went wild, a fantastic job of driving. 
He then drove back to the starting line and back to the pits so we could 
check the car out thoroughly. The only thing we found was a dirty spot in the 
drivers seat.
The problem with running a high powered vehicle this time of year is a cold 
track surface. Early morning it was only 45 degrees, very cold to the touch 
and at the end of the day it was only 63 degrees, still very cold and very 
hard to get traction.
Forth run, after a very large burn out to get some heat in the tires, Dennis 
rolled to the starting line and made a perfect run of 8.84 @ 144 MPH.
Fifth run, turn the Zilla up a little bit, do giant burn out and roll to 
starting line, and as soon as Dennis hits the peddle the car doesn't move an 
inch and the tires go up in smoke.
Now it's passed mid day and the track is starting to cool down so we have to 
try something else.
Sixth run, giant burn out all the way past the starting line about 50 feet, 
push the car back to the line in the exact hot/sticky tire prints for a run 
of 8.40 @148 MPH.
A new record for Dennis, but of coarse he wants more so back to the pits to 
get ice for the Zilla and another 12 minute charge for this awesome battery 
pack.
Seventh run, bump the Zilla up another 5% and do it again 8.23 @ 150 MPH.
By this time everyone in the stands and all the track personal are going 
crazy, to make this many runs and chop time off EVry run is extremely rare. But 
Dennis gets a bright idea, on the eight and last run he follows a 
supercharged alcohol dragster to the starting line, as soon as the supercharged car left 
the line Dennis rolled up in his big wide hot tire marks and blasts an 
awesome 8.10 @ 153 MPH.
After 8 hard runs and quick turn arounds the motor never got over 85 
degrees, the commutater looked like new and the brushes we picture perfect. Dennis 
says this motor has over 150 runs on it with no signs of wear or arcing since 
he built it.
With bigger tires, warmer conditions he is looking for some serious 7 
second runs.

We had no idea this car was going to have this much power, we were only 
using 55% of the energy on board, the car will be getting bigger wider tires for 
the next time out 

So to answer any questions about Altairnano Lithium batteries, yes they are 
VERY REAL.

Jim Ludiker...........what a fantastic day.






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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

[No message]


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Excellent story! Congratulations. You guys out west (not just the
coast) are having just too much fun.

Dave Cover



> <[email protected]> wrote:
> >
> >
> > On Saturday Dec 15th at Speed World Drag Strip in AZ, Altairnano batteries
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

wow very nice times.
what's the specs on the pack?

and where do I go to buy them....
I'm guessing no answer is forthcoming on that one

Dan

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Well, HOT DAMN!!! Dennis is BACK! About time 

And I thought 2007 was a _great_ year for NEDRA and EV
racing, looks like 2008 will be even better!

I'm not sure what else to say. I think the below post
speaks for itself. Way to go,

- Steven Ciciora




> --- [email protected] wrote:
> 
> >
> >
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> using 55% of the energy on board, the car will be getting bigger wider tires

At 100%, what times are possible? What about an even bigger pack?

What will ultimately turn out to be the bottle neck? motor/controller/pack?

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

WHOOOOEEEE!
Congratulations Dennis!

Rush
Tucson, AZ
2000 Insight, 66.7lmpg, #4965
www.ironandwood.org
www.Airphibian.com
www.TEVA2.com


----- Original Message ----- 
From: <[email protected]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Sunday, December 16, 2007 8:36 PM
Subject: [EVDL] Altairnano batteries vaporware?? NOT


>
>
> On Saturday Dec 15th at Speed World Drag Strip in AZ, Altairnano batteries
> powered Dennis Berube's dragster "Current Eliminator 5 " to a new NEDRA 
> record.
> Starting with the first run of the day at about 30% power the car ran 
> 10.047
> ET @ 128.71 MPH.
> Second run was 9.957 ET @ 129 MPH.
> Third run we turned the Zilla up to 40%. Dennis staged the car, came off 
> the
> line strong and when he put his foot in it, the car made a violent left 
> turn
> and spun out and rolled backwards down the drag strip, he didn't hit
> anything and the car was untouched, the crowd went wild, a fantastic job 
> of driving.
> He then drove back to the starting line and back to the pits so we could
> check the car out thoroughly. The only thing we found was a dirty spot in 
> the
> drivers seat.
> The problem with running a high powered vehicle this time of year is a 
> cold
> track surface. Early morning it was only 45 degrees, very cold to the 
> touch
> and at the end of the day it was only 63 degrees, still very cold and 
> very
> hard to get traction.
> Forth run, after a very large burn out to get some heat in the tires, 
> Dennis
> rolled to the starting line and made a perfect run of 8.84 @ 144 MPH.
> Fifth run, turn the Zilla up a little bit, do giant burn out and roll to
> starting line, and as soon as Dennis hits the peddle the car doesn't move 
> an
> inch and the tires go up in smoke.
> Now it's passed mid day and the track is starting to cool down so we have 
> to
> try something else.
> Sixth run, giant burn out all the way past the starting line about 50 
> feet,
> push the car back to the line in the exact hot/sticky tire prints for a 
> run
> of 8.40 @148 MPH.
> A new record for Dennis, but of coarse he wants more so back to the pits 
> to
> get ice for the Zilla and another 12 minute charge for this awesome 
> battery
> pack.
> Seventh run, bump the Zilla up another 5% and do it again 8.23 @ 150 MPH.
> By this time everyone in the stands and all the track personal are going
> crazy, to make this many runs and chop time off EVry run is extremely 
> rare. But
> Dennis gets a bright idea, on the eight and last run he follows a
> supercharged alcohol dragster to the starting line, as soon as the 
> supercharged car left
> the line Dennis rolled up in his big wide hot tire marks and blasts an
> awesome 8.10 @ 153 MPH.
> After 8 hard runs and quick turn arounds the motor never got over 85
> degrees, the commutater looked like new and the brushes we picture 
> perfect. Dennis
> says this motor has over 150 runs on it with no signs of wear or arcing 
> since
> he built it.
> With bigger tires, warmer conditions he is looking for some serious 7
> second runs.
>
> We had no idea this car was going to have this much power, we were only
> using 55% of the energy on board, the car will be getting bigger wider 
> tires for
> the next time out
>
> So to answer any questions about Altairnano Lithium batteries, yes they 
> are
> VERY REAL.
>
> Jim Ludiker...........what a fantastic day.
>
>
>
>
>
>
> **************************************See AOL's top rated recipes
> (http://food.aol.com/top-rated-recipes?NCID=aoltop00030000000004)
>
> _______________________________________________
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>
>
> -- 
> No virus found in this incoming message.
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> Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.17.4/1187 - Release Date: 
> 12/16/2007 11:36 AM
>
> 

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

The big questions are how much can manufacturing be scaled out and how cheap
can they become? AltairNano seems to be holding their technology so close
to the vest that it's missing the boat vs. Lifepos.

-----Original Message-----
They're really sitting on a goldmine there, man I wish I could get a 
pack for my car..

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Correct me if I'm wrong anyone, but as I understand it Altair's cells 
are still LiFePO4s, just using a special process for plating the 
cathodes to give them enormous surface area and hence really high 
current capabilities. (A little like A123, only better..)

On 17/12/2007, at 2:06 PM, <[email protected]> 


> <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> > The big questions are how much can manufacturing be scaled out and
> > how cheap
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Ian Hooper <[email protected]> wrote:
> > Correct me if I'm wrong anyone, but as I understand it Altair's cells
> > are still LiFePO4s, just using a special process for plating the
> > cathodes to give them enormous surface area and hence really high
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

[No message]


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Ian Hooper <[email protected]> wrote:
> > Energy density is comparable, it doesn't sound like their discharge
> > capabilities are that much higher than the best LiFePO4s, and the
> > rapid charge possibilities (while extremely cool) aren't particularly
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

In a message dated 12/16/2007 9:59:04 PM US Mountain Standard Time, 
[email protected] writes: 
> 
> Date:12/16/2007 9:59:04 PM US Mountain Standard Time
> From:[email protected]
> Reply-to:[email protected]
> To:[email protected]
> Received from Internet: 
> 
> 
> 
> >using 55% of the energy on board, the car will be getting bigger wider 
> tires
> 
> At 100%, what times are possible? What about an even bigger pack?
> 
> What will ultimately turn out to be the bottle neck? motor/controller/pack?
> 
The batteries 3p/152s weigh about 185lbs so on this current dragster I DO NOT 
need a bigger pack!There is enough power to run in the low sevens,but with 
the nhra and nedra rules I will only be able to run a 7.425.With the 11 inch 
145lb motor still cold at the end of the day it still has a long way to go!The 
single zilla had a very easy time pushing this 1100lb car to the lo 8s.At the 
begining of the day when on the way to tech I wacked the pedal and smoked the 
tires for at least 200 feet I new we would have a good day.We started racing 
with 42 degreeF and ended with 85 degreeF.The Altair Nanosafe batteries are not 
vaporware!!!!!! Dennis Berube 
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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> --- [email protected] wrote:
> 
> 
> > the low sevens,but with
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

In a message dated 12/17/2007 7:35:55 AM US Mountain Standard Time, 
[email protected] writes: 
> [EVDL] Altairnano batteries vaporware?? NOT 
> Date:12/17/2007 7:35:55 AM US Mountain Standard Time
> From:[email protected]
> Reply-to:[email protected]
> To:[email protected]
> Received from Internet: 
> 
> 
> 
> 


> > --- [email protected] wrote:
> >
> >
> > >the low sevens,but with
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Hey Dennis

I almost missed this due to it's subject line. Just
wanted to chime in and say congrats on some awesome
runs!!!
Cya
Jim Husted
Hi-Torque Electric




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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Hey Congratulations on a great run! Good to hear Current Eliminator is back 
in action.

Where did all this vaporware come from? 

On March 8, 2007 I had the opportunity to test-drive a Phoenix Motor Cars 
half ton, five-passenger pickup powered by Altairnano. The event was a Phoenix 
Motor Cars unveiling in Dallas Texas. 

The pickup was in perpetual motion from about 5:30PM to on past 9:00 PM (I 
left at 9:00 and it was still going). There was a long line of people waiting 
their turn driving the truck. You can be sure its acceleration was tested by 
most. It was never charged during the whole event and it never slowed down. 
Anyway, I knew then that they were certainly not vaporware.

My question: How did you get you hands on them?!! Are they for individual 
sale yet?

Ken




In a message dated 12/17/2007 8:21:22 AM Central Standard Time, 
[email protected] writes:
In a message dated 12/16/2007 9:59:04 PM US Mountain Standard Time, 
[email protected] writes: 
> 
> Date:12/16/2007 9:59:04 PM US Mountain Standard Time
> From:[email protected]
> Reply-to:[email protected]
> To:[email protected]
> Received from Internet: 
> 
> 
> 
> >using 55% of the energy on board, the car will be getting bigger wider 
> tires
> 
> At 100%, what times are possible? What about an even bigger pack?
> 
> What will ultimately turn out to be the bottle neck? motor/controller/pack?
> 
The batteries 3p/152s weigh about 185lbs so on this current dragster I DO NOT 
need a bigger pack!There is enough power to run in the low sevens,but with 
the nhra and nedra rules I will only be able to run a 7.425.With the 11 inch 
145lb motor still cold at the end of the day it still has a long way to 
go!The 
single zilla had a very easy time pushing this 1100lb car to the lo 8s.At the 
begining of the day when on the way to tech I wacked the pedal and smoked the 
tires for at least 200 feet I new we would have a good day.We started racing 
with 42 degreeF and ended with 85 degreeF.The Altair Nanosafe batteries are 
not 
vaporware!!!!!! Dennis Berube 



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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Hey Congratulations on a great run! Good to hear Current Eliminator is back 
in action.

Where did all this vaporware come from? 

On March 8, 2007 I had the opportunity to test-drive a Phoenix Motor Cars 
half ton, five-passenger pickup powered by Altairnano. The event was a 
Phoenix 
Motor Cars unveiling in Dallas Texas. 

The pickup was in perpetual motion from about 5:30PM to on past 9:00 PM (I 
left at 9:00 and it was still going). There was a long line of people 
waiting 
their turn driving the truck. You can be sure its acceleration was tested 
by 
most. It was never charged during the whole event and it never slowed down. 

Anyway, I knew then that they were certainly not vaporware.

My question: How did you get you hands on them?!! Are they for individual 
sale yet?

Ken

----------------------------

There was mention of vaporware on the list a few weeks ago from someone 
trying to get high power cells from Altairnano when we were waist deep in 
batteries putting modules together for the race car and we couldn't say a thing, 
just laugh to ourselves. 

The cells in the Phoenix project have been around for a while but the high 
power ones (that will be used for hybrids) were assembled just for the 
"Current Eliminator" and are not in full production yet. 
Check the Altairnano web site for more detail.

Jim..............just can't wait for the NEDRA drags in San Diego.




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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Well, the race is on now! 

Glad you have batteries that are working for you Dennis.

It wasn't 100% clear from the previous note. What is the new NEDRA 
dragster record going to be?

Bill Dube'	

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> [email protected] wrote:
> > Where did all this vaporware come from?
> >
> > On March 8, 2007 I had the opportunity to test-drive a Phoenix Motor Cars
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

In a message dated 12/17/2007 12:01:42 PM US Mountain Standard Time, 
[email protected] writes: 
> bj: Re: [EVDL] Altairnano batteries vaporware?? NOT 
> Date:12/17/2007 12:01:42 PM US Mountain Standard Time
> From:[email protected]
> Reply-to:[email protected]
> To:[email protected]
> Received from Internet: 
> 
> 
> 
> Well, the race is on now! 
> 
> Glad you have batteries that are working for you Dennis.
> 
> It wasn't 100% clear from the previous note. What is the new NEDRA 
> dragster record going to be?
> ^^8.108 at 153.6mph backup run8.239
> Bill Dube' 
> 

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Dennis Berube wrote:
> > The Altair Nanosafe batteries are not
> > vaporware!!!!!!
> >
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

In a message dated 12/17/2007 2:32:36 PM US Mountain Standard Time, 
[email protected] writes: 
> batteries vaporware?? NOT 
> Date:12/17/2007 2:32:36 PM US Mountain Standard Time
> From:[email protected]
> Reply-to:[email protected]
> To:[email protected]
> Received from Internet: 
> 
> 
> 


> > Dennis Berube wrote:
> > >The Altair Nanosafe batteries are not
> > >vaporware!!!!!!
> > >
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Dennis Berube wrote:
> > The cells in the Phoenix project have been around for a while but the high
> > power ones (that will be used for hybrids) were assembled just for the
> > "Current Eliminator" and are not in full production yet.
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

I think these guys are the factory for Altairnano and they have their own
powder batteries too. They sell their own stuff today. You can call them up
and buy it (their stuff):

www.abat.com.cn

Heilongjiang ZhongQiang Power-Tech Co., Ltd.
Add: No.1 Weiyou Road, Economy and Technology Development zone, Shuangcheng
City, Heilongjiang Province.
TEL$B!'(B0086-451-53118471
Marketing Tel$B!'(B0086-451-53118495 0086-451-53118493
$B!J(B0$B!K(B13199446408
Sales Manager: Mr. Renkun Shao
FAX$B!'(B0086-451-53116419
Zip Code$B!'(B150100 


-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf
Of Dan Frederiksen
Sent: Monday, December 17, 2007 2:11 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Altairnano batteries vaporware?? NOT



> Dennis Berube wrote:
> > The cells in the Phoenix project have been around for a while but the
> > high power ones (that will be used for hybrids) were assembled just
> > for the "Current Eliminator" and are not in full production yet.
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

In a message dated 12/17/2007 3:13:02 PM US Mountain Standard Time, 
[email protected] writes: 
> ltairnano batteries vaporware?? NOT 
> Date:12/17/2007 3:13:02 PM US Mountain Standard Time
> From:[email protected]
> Reply-to:[email protected]
> To:[email protected]
> Received from Internet: 
> 
> 
> 


> > Dennis Berube wrote:
> > >The cells in the Phoenix project have been around for a while but the high
> >
> > >power ones (that will be used for hybrids) were assembled just for the
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Dennis Berube wrote:
> > Where can I buy a GM volt today?A Tesla today?
> Tesla is taking orders, a known price and known date. The Volt is
> presented as a future product with a rough date and rough price.
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Dennis wrote - 
> There is enough power to run in the low sevens,but with 
> the nhra and nedra rules I will only be able to run a 7.425.

What is it about the rules that limits you to 7.425 + and not lower?

Rush
Tucson, AZ
2000 Insight, 66.7lmpg, #4965
www.ironandwood.org
www.Airphibian.com
www.TEVA2.com

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Some Kilowatt coverage:

http://www.engadget.com/2007/12/17/all-electric-dragster-sets-electric-vehicle-quarter-mile-record/

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

[No message]


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Lithium is lithium to journalists
distinguishing between subchemistries was not in the cards for that day 



> Bill Dube wrote:
> > I wonder who is saying that the KillaCycle has the same batteries as
> > the Current Eliminator? Not at all true and I've now seen it in print
> > more than once.
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Dennis, I agree with you that Altairnano batteries are not vapor ware. 
Vaporware is a term which I believed originated in the late 70's by software 
developers trying to catch up with hardware developers and they were 
claiming they had developed software packages that were not actually 
developed. Neither Altairnanos or Inspiras fit into the definition. Inspiras 
were developed by Johnson Controls, which is company worth hundreds of 
millions. You and I both set records on Inspiras which stood for many years. 
But the truth is that Inspiras never came to market and it is possible that 
Altairnanos will neither. The jury is still out on that. You can take a look 
at the performance of the companies involved with Altairnano.

One of my first hints is that if this technology is so cutting edge why 
are they not involved with a large automaker doing hybrids or plug-in 
hybrids. You be the judge. I have only been in the EV business for about 
fifteen years but I can tell you that I have seen many companies with 
outrageous claims come and go over that time. I can usually smell a stock 
scam in short order. I will not tell you my personal opinion on Altairnano. 
You all have to do your own due diligence and research and try to find the 
truth for yourself.

Another thing to consider, it is very easy to get a patent on the tweaking 
of an existing technology and to also get a non disclosure with the offshore 
company that manufactures your batteries to not say anything, even though 
they supply many others with similar technology. I have personally spoken 
with the offshore company that makes Altairnanos. Patents make for great 
press releases. It also helps to do the most important thing of all, boost 
stock sales. Another thing to consider, A123's are a real battery that any 
human with enough money can go into a hardware store and buy. Think about 
this very carefully. Where can you actually buy Altairnanos in a hardware 
store. I went to the grocery store tonight and they weren't there either.

On another note about Dennis's great performance. I have heard rumored 
through the grapevine that the current NEDRA Tech Director has been in 
discussions with the head tech director for the NHRA to get EVs approved for 
lower ETs. I just hope and pray they do not see a video of Dennis going down 
the track backwards. This could set NEDRA back years 

Roderick Wilde


----- Original Message ----- 
From: <[email protected]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, December 17, 2007 6:19 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Altairnano batteries vaporware?? NOT


> In a message dated 12/16/2007 9:59:04 PM US Mountain Standard Time,
> [email protected] writes:
>>
>> Date:12/16/2007 9:59:04 PM US Mountain Standard Time
>> From:[email protected]
>> Reply-to:[email protected]
>> To:[email protected]
>> Received from Internet:
>>
>>
>>
>> >using 55% of the energy on board, the car will be getting bigger wider
>> tires
>>
>> At 100%, what times are possible? What about an even bigger pack?
>>
>> What will ultimately turn out to be the bottle neck? 
>> motor/controller/pack?
>>
> The batteries 3p/152s weigh about 185lbs so on this current dragster I DO 
> NOT
> need a bigger pack!There is enough power to run in the low sevens,but with
> the nhra and nedra rules I will only be able to run a 7.425.With the 11 
> inch
> 145lb motor still cold at the end of the day it still has a long way to 
> go!The
> single zilla had a very easy time pushing this 1100lb car to the lo 8s.At 
> the
> begining of the day when on the way to tech I wacked the pedal and smoked 
> the
> tires for at least 200 feet I new we would have a good day.We started 
> racing
> with 42 degreeF and ended with 85 degreeF.The Altair Nanosafe batteries 
> are not
> vaporware!!!!!! Dennis Berube
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>
>
>
> -- 
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.17.4/1187 - Release Date: 
> 12/16/2007 11:36 AM
>
> 

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Think about it for a minute Bill. They tactually could be the exact same 
batteries. Re-packaging and re-labeling is not a new thing. Dennis Berube 


> wrote: {"The cells in the Phoenix project have been around for a while but
> the high power ones (that will be used for hybrids) were assembled just for
> the Current Eliminator" and are not in full production yet.} So who knows
> for sure what Dennis' pack is made of. We are all most confident that it is
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

[No message]


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Roderick Wilde <[email protected]> wrote:
> > Think about it for a minute Bill. They tactually could be the exact same
> > batteries. Re-packaging and re-labeling is not a new thing.
> 
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

2007 NHRA Rule Book
Section 1G - Electric Powered Vehicle 7.50 (*4.50 <for 1/8 mile>) and slower
"Requirements and specifications for Electric-Powered Vehicle are the same
as those for E.T. bracket vehicles - Section 1A - with the following
exceptions..."

There are no exceptions to the 7.50 second limit for dragsters or
motorcycles :-(

Dennis, Bill and the NEDRA staff need to get on the stick this year and get
an NHRA amendment to add Section i and J for "Advance E.T. EV" (car and
motorcycle) much like section 1B - Advanced E.T. handicap racers between
6.00 and 7.49 seconds. 

While you're at it you should go ahead and make headway into getting the
next level, faster than 6.00 set up for an easy adoption by NHRA. Lots of
weight reductions I see with these Lithium-ion batteries ;-)

Mike Willmon


-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf
Of Rush
Sent: Monday, December 17, 2007 4:16 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Altairnano batteries vaporware?? NOT

Dennis wrote - 
> There is enough power to run in the low sevens,but with 
> the nhra and nedra rules I will only be able to run a 7.425.

What is it about the rules that limits you to 7.425 + and not lower?

Rush
Tucson, AZ
2000 Insight, 66.7lmpg, #4965
www.ironandwood.org
www.Airphibian.com
www.TEVA2.com

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Roderick Wilde said:

"Think about it for a minute Bill. They tactually could be the exact same 
batteries. Re-packaging and re-labeling is not a new thing."

"From watching the way the press release generating 
system works for Altainano it seems we would have heard of these batteries 
before now. Maybe I missed a few of their press releases. I am most likely 
not on their investor list."

I think you're being a little paranoid and opinionated, Roderick. Tell us
how Pheonix screwed somebody over. It doesn't need to be a secret. Just
because a technology isn't ready for every troll or consumer to buy it at
Walmart, doesn't mean it's an invalid technology. Dennis did an awesome job
of coming up with a vehicle and clearly demonstrating what these real
batteries can do in a racing application.

The fact is, energy storage technology development is in a state of flux
right now, and if you consider all of the factors of performance (including
cost), a trade-off study to determine which chemistry is best would yield a
premature result.

Over a year ago, Altair's "Chief Scientist" (admittedly kind of a suspicious
title) showed me data on the cells at that point in development, and
realistically revealed that they weren't so impressive in the energy density
department (about the same as NiMH)-not quite as important for racing as it
is for everyday utility use, but it does matter. Expulsion rate (output),
however, is the holy grail (stop clacking those coconuts :^) )for racing.

Dennis, any info on the energy density (Volume and/or weight) of the cells
you raced with? 

-Sam



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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

In a message dated 12/17/2007 8:18:32 P.M. Pacific Standard Time, 
[email protected] writes:


On another note about Dennis's great performance. I have heard rumored 
through the grapevine that the current NEDRA Tech Director has been in 
discussions with the head tech director for the NHRA to get EVs approved for 
lower ETs. I just hope and pray they do not see a video of Dennis going down 
the track backwards. This could set NEDRA back years 

---------------------------------

Rod, it is true that NEDRA is in talks with NHRA to set the limits to 
quicker and faster times for electric vehicles, with Bill's bike, Dennis's car and 
Shawn's new four motor car this will be necessary soon.
As far as Dennis over powering the track and safely bringing his car to a 
stop, I think NHRA would be proud of the fact as all the officials at the track 
were.
Dennis has over 3 thousand passes down the 1/4 mile and running that quick 
you need to be ready for a surprise, and as you will notice he went more than 
a second quicker on the next run, give him credit he is a serious competitor 
with more runs than all other EV's combined.

Jim 




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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

In a message dated 12/17/2007 8:33:38 P.M. Pacific Standard Time, 
[email protected] writes:


Think about it for a minute Bill. They tactually could be the exact same 
batteries. Re-packaging and re-labeling is not a new thing. Dennis Berube 


> wrote: {"The cells in the Phoenix project have been around for a while but
> the high power ones (that will be used for hybrids) were assembled just for
> the Current Eliminator" and are not in full production yet.} So who knows
> for sure what Dennis' pack is made of. We are all most confident that it is
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

In a message dated 12/17/2007 8:53:07 P.M. Pacific Standard Time, 
[email protected] writes:


The cathode paste is different. Nobody has figured out how 
A123Systems is actually making the particles perform the way that 
they are. Folks have tried, but no one has yet to figure out the 
process. Probably just a matter of time, however.

Put a voltmeter on an Atairnano cell and compare the reading to an 
A123Systems cell and you will say, "Oh, I guess the chemistry is 
different." Pretty simple to do.

Bill Dube'

------------------------

Bill, bring one of your 123 cells to Electric Dragin and I'll bring an 
Altair cell and we can compare them.

Jim 




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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

In a message dated 12/18/2007 1:07:34 AM US Mountain Standard Time, 
[email protected] writes: 
> L] Altairnano batteries vaporware?? NOT 
> Date:12/18/2007 1:07:34 AM US Mountain Standard Time
> From:[email protected]
> Reply-to:[email protected]
> To:[email protected], [email protected]
> Received from Internet: 
> 
> 
> 
> Roderick Wilde said:
> 
> "Think about it for a minute Bill. They tactually could be the exact same 
> batteries. Re-packaging and re-labeling is not a new thing."
> 
> "From watching the way the press release generating 
> system works for Altainano it seems we would have heard of these batteries 
> before now. Maybe I missed a few of their press releases. I am most likely 
> not on their investor list."
> 
> I think you're being a little paranoid and opinionated, Roderick. Tell us
> how Pheonix screwed somebody over. It doesn't need to be a secret. Just
> because a technology isn't ready for every troll or consumer to buy it at
> Walmart, doesn't mean it's an invalid technology. Dennis did an awesome job
> of coming up with a vehicle and clearly demonstrating what these real
> batteries can do in a racing application.
> 
> The fact is, energy storage technology development is in a state of flux
> right now, and if you consider all of the factors of performance (including
> cost), a trade-off study to determine which chemistry is best would yield a
> premature result.
> 
> Over a year ago, Altair's "Chief Scientist" (admittedly kind of a suspicious
> title) showed me data on the cells at that point in development, and
> realistically revealed that they weren't so impressive in the energy density
> department (about the same as NiMH)-not quite as important for racing as it
> is for everyday utility use, but it does matter. Expulsion rate (output),
> however, is the holy grail (stop clacking those coconuts :^) )for racing.
> 
> Dennis, any info on the energy density (Volume and/or weight) of the cells
> you raced with? 
> 
> -Sam
> 
> 
We had about a 6ah pack on the car at less than 200 lbs of cells. Dennis 
Berube 
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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

In a message dated 12/18/2007 5:12:39 AM US Mountain Standard Time, 
[email protected] writes: 
> : [EVDL] Altairnano batteries vaporware?? NOT 
> Date:12/18/2007 5:12:39 AM US Mountain Standard Time
> From:[email protected]
> Reply-to:[email protected]
> To:[email protected]
> Received from Internet: 
> 
> 
> 
> In a message dated 12/17/2007 8:33:38 P.M. Pacific Standard Time, 
> [email protected] writes:
> 
> 
> Think about it for a minute Bill. They tactually could be the exact same 
> batteries. Re-packaging and re-labeling is not a new thing. Dennis Berube 


> > wrote: {"The cells in the Phoenix project have been around for a while but
> > the high power ones (that will be used for hybrids) were assembled just for
> >
> > the Current Eliminator" and are not in full production yet.} So who knows
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

for super cells the terminals look rather flimsy. what thickness are those?
what Ah rating are the cells? if they are as thin as they appear then a 
lot run though a very small area.

Dan



> [email protected] wrote:
> > I would not have the 123 cells on my dragster.To run the ets Bills
> > bike ran
> > once(with a 500lb lighter vech) he has to preheat up the pack to over
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

In a message dated 12/18/2007 5:33:55 A.M. Pacific Standard Time, 
[email protected] writes


for super cells the terminals look rather flimsy. what thickness are those?
what Ah rating are the cells? if they are as thin as they appear then a 
lot run though a very small area.

Dan

------------------------

The terminals are about .010 of an inch thick, 1 inch wide, 3 inches long 
and made of aluminum, the 2.65 volt cells will put out over 500 amps and yes if 
you short them they will vaporize instantly just ask Dennis. 
And yes I hope everyone will be able to get these some day, as you know 
racing brings out a lot of things that end up on the street.

Jim Ludiker



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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

----- Original Message ----- 
From: <[email protected]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, December 18, 2007 9:19 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Altairnano batteries vaporware?? NOT


> In a message dated 12/18/2007 5:33:55 A.M. Pacific Standard Time,
> [email protected] writes
>
>
> for super cells the terminals look rather flimsy. what thickness are 
> those?
> what Ah rating are the cells? if they are as thin as they appear then a
> lot run though a very small area.
>
> Dan
>
> ------------------------
>
> The terminals are about .010 of an inch thick, 1 inch wide, 3 inches long
> and made of aluminum, the 2.65 volt cells will put out over 500 amps and 
> yes if
> you short them they will vaporize instantly just ask Dennis.
> And yes I hope everyone will be able to get these some day, as you know
> racing brings out a lot of things that end up on the street.
>
> Jim Ludiker
> Right on Jim! The famous logo"We Break things so You don't Have to" 
> comes to mind. I have been WAITING 40 years for a Better Battery, I had to 
> chuckle when Michela said 3 years on her post.
But it looks like promising things are on the way? Buy as I have said, 
before" Electric cars issues aren't technical, but Political" We all know 
that, no point beating around the bushes. Oops! BAD pun<g>!Is there ANY hope 
with the jolly band of pirates, and thieves vying to drive our Titanic(Ship 
of State)? Sigh! Feh! and all that.

As Dan said something about the new stuff being close in price to the 
old stuff. I'm staying tuned and STILL waiting.

Seeya

Bob
>
>
> **************************************See AOL's top rated recipes
> (http://food.aol.com/top-rated-recipes?NCID=aoltop00030000000004)
>
> _______________________________________________
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>
>
> -- 
> Internal Virus Database is out-of-date.
> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> Version: 7.5.488 / Virus Database: 269.13.28/1023 - Release Date: 
> 9/22/2007 1:27 PM
>
> 

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

The chemicals for the altairnano batteries has been around for a while
(I actually bought some: I was gonna make a test cell) I was wondering
then why there wasn't a manufacture using those chemicals. The answer
from the supplier was that with the reduced voltage, most manufactures
didn't see the advantages competing with the higher energy cells. We are
now getting to the point where offering a different chemistry by itself
helps distinguish you from the crowd. I am glad altairnano took the plunge.


I think the manufacture of the raw materials is not usually the
manufacture of the cells, one is a bulk process with very high energy
demands so the economic batch quantity is huge. The other is a
production line.

Just google and you will find the chemical suppliers, Prices are not 
really reasonable until you are buying rail cars of the stuff. (125,000 lbs)



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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

It looks like im wrong before I even post, but I seem to remember altair
announcing their nano titanate tech a few years back, and then a123
licensing it off them? If the cells are different could it just be a
part of the process they have licensed? Or did I just make it up in my
fuzzy brain.



-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On
Behalf Of Morgan LaMoore
Sent: 17 December 2007 06:09
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Altairnano batteries vaporware?? NOT



> Ian Hooper <[email protected]> wrote:
> > Correct me if I'm wrong anyone, but as I understand it Altair's cells
> > are still LiFePO4s, just using a special process for plating the
> > cathodes to give them enormous surface area and hence really high
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> On 18 Dec 2007 at 8:23, [email protected] wrote:
> 
> > I would not have the 123 cells on my dragster....
> > The Altairnano batteries are far superior weight for weight.
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

In a message dated 12/17/2007 8:49:19 PM US Mountain Standard Time, 
[email protected] writes: 
> Subj: Re: [EVDL] Altairnano batteries vaporware?? NOT 
> Date:12/17/2007 8:49:19 PM US Mountain Standard Time
> From:[email protected]
> Reply-to:[email protected]
> To:[email protected]
> Received from Internet: 
> 
> 
> 
> I wonder who is saying that the KillaCycle has the same batteries as 
> the Current Eliminator? Not at all true and I've now seen it in print 
> more than once.
> 
> Bill D.
> 
I think Rod wilde is the latest culprit. Dennis 
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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

In a message dated 12/16/2007 10:06:43 PM US Mountain Standard Time, 
[email protected] writes: 
> : [EVDL] Altairnano batteries vaporware?? NOT 
> Date:12/16/2007 10:06:43 PM US Mountain Standard Time
> From:[email protected]
> Reply-to:[email protected]
> To:[email protected]
> Received from Internet: 
> 
> 
> 
> WHOOOOEEEE!
> Congratulations Dennis!
> 
> Rush
> Tucson, AZ
> 2000 Insight, 66.7lmpg, #4965
> www.ironandwood.org
> www.Airphibian.com
> www.TEVA2.com
> 
Call me Rush oe E mail me off list Dennis 
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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Perhaps a measureable way to clarify the uniqueness of A123 and Altair cells
is to compare energy densities.

Dennis, your racing pack is unique as it is the cutting edge of Altair
development. I couldn't find energy density info on Altair's sight. You
said your pack weighs less than 200 lb and is 6Ah, but we need nominal pack
voltage to determine W-h/lb, or preferably W-h/kg.

Bill, can you give us an energy density value for your A123's?

I Think LiFePO4 is around 78 W-h/kg or 35 W-h/lb. Correct me if I'm wrong,
Jukka.

I hope this would be valuable for the list to know. I'm not on any side of
a flame war. Both of these chemistries are promising to boost the
performance of all types of EV's across the spectrum.

-S

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf
Of [email protected]
Sent: Tuesday, December 18, 2007 11:29 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Altairnano batteries vaporware?? NOT

In a message dated 12/17/2007 8:49:19 PM US Mountain Standard Time, 
[email protected] writes: 
> Subj: Re: [EVDL] Altairnano batteries vaporware?? NOT 
> Date:12/17/2007 8:49:19 PM US Mountain Standard Time
> From:[email protected]
> Reply-to:[email protected]
> To:[email protected]
> Received from Internet: 
> 
> 
> 
> I wonder who is saying that the KillaCycle has the same batteries as 
> the Current Eliminator? Not at all true and I've now seen it in print 
> more than once.
> 
> Bill D.
> 
I think Rod wilde is the latest culprit. Dennis 
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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

In a message dated 12/18/2007 1:43:37 PM US Mountain Standard Time, 
[email protected] writes: 
> ries vaporware?? NOT 
> Date:12/18/2007 1:43:37 PM US Mountain Standard Time
> From:[email protected]
> Reply-to:[email protected]
> To:[email protected]
> Received from Internet: 
> 
> 
> 
> Perhaps a measureable way to clarify the uniqueness of A123 and Altair cells
> is to compare energy densities.
> 
> Dennis, your racing pack is unique as it is the cutting edge of Altair
> development. I couldn't find energy density info on Altair's sight. You
> said your pack weighs less than 200 lb and is 6Ah, but we need nominal pack
> voltage to determine W-h/lb, or preferably W-h/kg.
> 
> Bill, can you give us an energy density value for your A123's?
> 
> I Think LiFePO4 is around 78 W-h/kg or 35 W-h/lb. Correct me if I'm wrong,
> Jukka.
> 
> I hope this would be valuable for the list to know. I'm not on any side of
> a flame war. Both of these chemistries are promising to boost the
> performance of all types of EV's across the spectrum.
> 
On the line I had 390 volts 
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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> I Think LiFePO4 is around 78 W-h/kg or 35 W-h/lb. Correct me if I'm wrong,
> Jukka.

There's a decent range of LiFePO4 available. The K2 3.2Ah energy cells
are 125Wh/kg, and their 2.5Ah power cells are 97Wh/kg. A123 are
105-108Wh/kg.

> On the line I had 390 volts

390V*6Ah/200lbs = 26Wh/kg. That's really bad energy density; hopefully
the cells weigh a lot less than your estimate.

However, that weight is also including the packaging and everything.

These Nanosafe cells sound more like Lithium capacitors than Lithium
batteries! Enough energy for drag racing, but not much more, and tons
of power, sounds like more than A123!

-Morgan LaMoore

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> These Nanosafe cells sound more like Lithium capacitors than Lithium
> batteries! Enough energy for drag racing, but not much more, and tons
> of power, sounds like more than A123!
>
> -Morgan LaMoore
>

They are indeed, the power cells are somewhere around 40wh/kg at least
the ones I've dealt with. Their energy cells are 80wh/kg. What makes
them so great is their cycle life and their tremendous power
capabilities, especially during recharge.


-- 
www.electric-lemon.com

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

In a message dated 12/18/2007 2:35:27 PM US Mountain Standard Time, 
[email protected] writes: 
> airnano batteries vaporware?? NOT 
> Date:12/18/2007 2:35:27 PM US Mountain Standard Time
> From:[email protected]
> Reply-to:[email protected]
> To:[email protected]
> Received from Internet: 
> 
> 
> 
> >I Think LiFePO4 is around 78 W-h/kg or 35 W-h/lb. Correct me if I'm wrong,
> >Jukka.
> 
> There's a decent range of LiFePO4 available. The K2 3.2Ah energy cells
> are 125Wh/kg, and their 2.5Ah power cells are 97Wh/kg. A123 are
> 105-108Wh/kg.
> 
> >On the line I had 390 volts
> 
> 390V*6Ah/200lbs = 26Wh/kg. That's really bad energy density; hopefully
> the cells weigh a lot less than your estimate.
> 
> However, that weight is also including the packaging and everything.
> 
> These Nanosafe cells sound more like Lithium capacitors than Lithium
> batteries! Enough energy for drag racing, but not much more, and tons
> of power, sounds like more than A123!
> 
> -Morgan LaMoore
> 
I like all other smart drag racers only want to carry the energy needed for 
the !/4 mile et desired.Of course you also want your drive train to be 
efficent. Dennis Berube 
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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Well.. I have to see what these K2 cells are. Yeah. I got my punch (1750 =

cells) today. After few weeks from the order. Really a shock how precise =

and fast they were with the delivery. Full 10 points for them on that.

Weight was 830 grams for 10 cells. so about 83 g per cell. 3,2 V and 3,2 =

Ah. Starting the cycling soon... then we know more.

I got all cells as seperate. So no factory made parallering. I intend to =

complete quite extencive paralled cell testing on these. Then we know =

what is the truth on parallering small LiFePO4 cells.

Data sheet numbers give out over 120 wh/kg ! Amazing for LiFePO4. But no =

need to be sceptical now since the delivery was professional.... tests =

will prove.

So far.. K2 has something precious. Actual sales !

In over all after opening several boxes the quality seemed to be in =

right place. And since they have lisenced material this all seems to be =

too good to be true.

TS cells are at best in 90Wh/kg. Usually about 75 Wh/kg. No warranty. =

Nice cyclic stability. Huge variation in patches (Rint, capacity, pole =

threads).

Would it serve our purpose to put up an site which collects Lion battery =

experiences with numbers on web ? Independent EVDL driven Wiki or what =

ever... ??

-Jukka


Sam Maynard kirjoitti:
> Perhaps a measureable way to clarify the uniqueness of A123 and Altair ce=
lls
> is to compare energy densities.
> =

> Dennis, your racing pack is unique as it is the cutting edge of Altair
> development. I couldn't find energy density info on Altair's sight. You
> said your pack weighs less than 200 lb and is 6Ah, but we need nominal pa=
ck
> voltage to determine W-h/lb, or preferably W-h/kg.
> =

> Bill, can you give us an energy density value for your A123's?
> =

> I Think LiFePO4 is around 78 W-h/kg or 35 W-h/lb. Correct me if I'm wron=
g,
> Jukka.
> =

> I hope this would be valuable for the list to know. I'm not on any side =
of
> a flame war. Both of these chemistries are promising to boost the
> performance of all types of EV's across the spectrum.
> =

> -S
> =

> -----Original Message-----
> From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Beh=
alf
> Of [email protected]
> Sent: Tuesday, December 18, 2007 11:29 AM
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Altairnano batteries vaporware?? NOT
> =

> In a message dated 12/17/2007 8:49:19 PM US Mountain Standard Time, =

> [email protected] writes: =

>> Subj: Re: [EVDL] Altairnano batteries vaporware?? NOT =

>> Date:12/17/2007 8:49:19 PM US Mountain Standard Time
>> From:[email protected]
>> Reply-to:[email protected]
>> To:[email protected]
>> Received from Internet: =

>>
>>
>>
>> I wonder who is saying that the KillaCycle has the same batteries as =

>> the Current Eliminator? Not at all true and I've now seen it in print =

>> more than once.
>>
>> Bill D.
>>
> I think Rod wilde is the latest culprit. Dennis =

> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
> =

> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
> =


-- =

Jukka J=E4rvinen
R&D Director
Oy Finnish Electric Vehicle Technologies Ltd
Teollisuuskatu 24 A3
11100 RIIHIM=C4KI
FINLAND
VAT ID: FI18534078

jukka.jarvinen(a_t)fevt.com
mobile +358-440-735705
phone +358-19-735705
fax +358-19-735785

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

I am EXTREMELY interested in your test results. It looks like you got the
"EV" model. As it was explained to me the "EV" model does NOT support
regenerative charging. =


Will charging be part of your testing? =


When do you expect to have some results?

Thanks from one who is trying to soak it all up.

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf
Of Jukka J=E4rvinen
Sent: Tuesday, December 18, 2007 3:34 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Altairnano batteries vaporware?? NOT

Well.. I have to see what these K2 cells are. Yeah. I got my punch (1750 =

cells) today. After few weeks from the order. Really a shock how precise =

and fast they were with the delivery. Full 10 points for them on that.

Weight was 830 grams for 10 cells. so about 83 g per cell. 3,2 V and 3,2 =

Ah. Starting the cycling soon... then we know more.

I got all cells as seperate. So no factory made parallering. I intend to =

complete quite extencive paralled cell testing on these. Then we know =

what is the truth on parallering small LiFePO4 cells.

Data sheet numbers give out over 120 wh/kg ! Amazing for LiFePO4. But no =

need to be sceptical now since the delivery was professional.... tests =

will prove.

So far.. K2 has something precious. Actual sales !

In over all after opening several boxes the quality seemed to be in =

right place. And since they have lisenced material this all seems to be =

too good to be true.

TS cells are at best in 90Wh/kg. Usually about 75 Wh/kg. No warranty. =

Nice cyclic stability. Huge variation in patches (Rint, capacity, pole =

threads).

Would it serve our purpose to put up an site which collects Lion battery =

experiences with numbers on web ? Independent EVDL driven Wiki or what =

ever... ??

-Jukka


Sam Maynard kirjoitti:
> Perhaps a measureable way to clarify the uniqueness of A123 and Altair
cells
> is to compare energy densities.
> =

> Dennis, your racing pack is unique as it is the cutting edge of Altair
> development. I couldn't find energy density info on Altair's sight. You
> said your pack weighs less than 200 lb and is 6Ah, but we need nominal
pack
> voltage to determine W-h/lb, or preferably W-h/kg.
> =

> Bill, can you give us an energy density value for your A123's?
> =

> I Think LiFePO4 is around 78 W-h/kg or 35 W-h/lb. Correct me if I'm
wrong,
> Jukka.
> =

> I hope this would be valuable for the list to know. I'm not on any side
of
> a flame war. Both of these chemistries are promising to boost the
> performance of all types of EV's across the spectrum.
> =

> -S
> =

> -----Original Message-----
> From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On
Behalf
> Of [email protected]
> Sent: Tuesday, December 18, 2007 11:29 AM
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Altairnano batteries vaporware?? NOT
> =

> In a message dated 12/17/2007 8:49:19 PM US Mountain Standard Time, =

> [email protected] writes: =

>> Subj: Re: [EVDL] Altairnano batteries vaporware?? NOT =

>> Date:12/17/2007 8:49:19 PM US Mountain Standard Time
>> From:[email protected]
>> Reply-to:[email protected]
>> To:[email protected]
>> Received from Internet: =

>>
>>
>>
>> I wonder who is saying that the KillaCycle has the same batteries as =

>> the Current Eliminator? Not at all true and I've now seen it in print =

>> more than once.
>>
>> Bill D.
>>
> I think Rod wilde is the latest culprit. Dennis =

> _______________________________________________
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> =

> _______________________________________________
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> =


-- =

Jukka J=E4rvinen
R&D Director
Oy Finnish Electric Vehicle Technologies Ltd
Teollisuuskatu 24 A3
11100 RIIHIM=C4KI
FINLAND
VAT ID: FI18534078

jukka.jarvinen(a_t)fevt.com
mobile +358-440-735705
phone +358-19-735705
fax +358-19-735785

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