# First Time Project-Help!



## Wirenut (Jan 16, 2016)

I am purchasing a Factory Five 818s kit and I want to go electric. I have seen the one that Ev west worked on and some of the other still in progress. I have a few questions, but first here's what I want....In order of importance.

1. 0-60 Sub 5 secs. (mid 4's would be great)
2. 60 miles range (more would be great as always)
3. No A/C, heat, power steering. I just want a street rod not a commuter.


I guess that's it! So here is how I plan to get there.

One Warp 11HV
One Soliton 1 Controller
Subaru Sti 6 speed transmission
96- Calb 72ah Cam Fi batteries.

Will this setup get me what I want? Should I be going a different direction? (i.e. AC, different DC setup) 

I appreciate any input. Thanks!


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## jwiger (Oct 18, 2014)

The car and transmission are a great combo. The batteries are reasonable. With 96 CAM72 cells, I got the following math:

96 * 3.2v = 307v

307v * 72ah = 22118kWh

80% * 22,118kWh = ~17.7kWh at 80% Depth of Discharge.

if the car takes around 300wh per mile to drive, you are looking at about 59 miles on the nose.

Now, for performance:

figure 15% sag at full amps:

~260v * 580a = 150.8kw

This equals about 202hp. Which is not quite enough battery horsepower to get you to your acceleration goals I don't think. Also, the Soliton family isn't being manufactured now as far as I know. So we have a little ways to go to get you the acceleration number. It would still be a blast to drive. For a higher battery hp you may want to consider the sleepercells that Lonestar EV puts together. 
http://www.lifegeode.com/ampahaulic_products.html

DC is great bang for the buck. I'm going with a single warp 9 and a Zilla 2K-EHV in my Mustang. Two impulse 9s would give you a higher continuous hp and a bit more torque than the single HV 11". You aren't pushing enough voltage with 96 cells to really benefit from the HV 11" with this setup.


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## jwiger (Oct 18, 2014)

Random thought, Don Rickard at EVTV just got in a Tesla front drive unit that may be enough power for your car, and save you a little on transmission cost (it would replace the whole motor/transaxle, and be lighter, which means more overhead for batteries.

Oh, yeah and Welcome to the forum!


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## Wirenut (Jan 16, 2016)

Thanks! Really pumped to have found this community.

So say I stuck with the same battery configuration....

I should switch to the 9"? I would have to look at the dimensions of (2) 9" motors. Might have to do something else for a transmission. My only other concern is budget. I really need to keep the drive train (motor, controller, battery and parts) in the 25K range. I think 2 motors + 2 controllers would push me out of budget.

What would that Tesla drive go for? 

BTW...I've never driven an electric so if I had a 5 sec 0-60 car would it be more fun than a little faster ICE? I mean would it push your head back in the seat on takeoff??

Thanks for the help!!! I feel like I'm running a little blind and want to know what I'm getting before I throw my credit card down!


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## Vanquizor (Nov 17, 2009)

You can run 2 motors from 1 controller... just make sure its a beefy one.


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## jwiger (Oct 18, 2014)

Vanq is right, for example a Zilla 2K-EHV can do 2,000amps at about 345volts

2000a * 345v = 690000watts

690000 / 746 = ~925hp and most of that is torque that will pin your head back on the seat.

It's way to early to guess at the price of the Tesla drive trains. I think the typical going rate for it is about $12k, and that's with no controls what so ever. Don Rickard at EVTV is putting together a pretty comprehensive kit featuring the drive train (with limited slip diff); EVIC Touch screen; tactile control panel for PRND + creep, etc; Dual signal throttle pedal; basic wiring harness and CAN control boxes. That kit will probably at or above $20k once it's all said and done.

A set of CALBs that gets you the range you want is going to cost almost half your budget. You may need to go a route similar to mine in that you use used batteries from a Leaf or Volt (half the cost of new CALBs), and just enough motor to get you up to speed. 

My goal is to have a functional car that I can start driving, then upgrade it later, after I learn a bit. I've done plenty of hot ICE cars, but EV is a new learning curve for me, I don't know how electric torque is going to affect the cars handling yet. So I'm restarting the process of turning things up until I find a new mechanical fuse. 

If you're not familiar with driving a hot rear engine car, I suggest you start with a modest drive train. With so many of the motors using similar voltage and bolt patterns, it's pretty easy to swap parts later, and there will always be a market for some second hand EV parts if you do upgrade and want to sell what you have.


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## Tomdb (Jan 28, 2013)

I would also go looking for salvaged leaf or volt batteries. 

You got a CAD model or measurements of the frame? Because I think with your adequate budget of 25K space will be your biggest concern.

Why you want to keep the heavy transmission? Any topspeed requirements?


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## Wirenut (Jan 16, 2016)

Tomdb said:


> I would also go looking for salvaged leaf or volt batteries.
> 
> You got a CAD model or measurements of the frame? Because I think with your adequate budget of 25K space will be your biggest concern.
> 
> Why you want to keep the heavy transmission? Any topspeed requirements?


I don't have a model of the frame. I believe EvWest has the chassis in soildworks from when they worked on Erik Hanson's 818. However, I haven't talked to them yet. (Plan on talking to them soon)

The only reasons I was planning on going with the transmission are:

A. The 818 is built to accept that transmission so build time would be cut down.

B. I've seen it done before and it worked. 

If I could get 100mph top speed I would be happy. What should I be doing as opposed to the transmission? 

EV West/Erik Hanson 818

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B8bV8SKeQOo


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## Wirenut (Jan 16, 2016)

I found these packs: http://hybridautocenter.com/HAC4/in...ck-182v-60ah-from-2015-nissan-leaf&Itemid=605


Wow what a deal to use those! Do you think I would need a BMS with these? I was planning on running the CALBs without a BMS and just bottom balancing them.


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

Hi those are quite expensive - for a performance application try getting a Volt pack,
There are lots in the USA from $1800 to $3000,

16Kwhrs and able to deliver 200Kw+


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## jwiger (Oct 18, 2014)

Running a BMS is akin to running DC vs AC. You can do without, but you need to accept the responsibility of checking the the cells periodically and perhaps re-balancing them. It can be done, especially with larger format batteries, since the lower cell count makes it a simpler job. The LiFePo chemistry of the CALB cells is a little bit more resilient than the chemistry of the Leaf and Volt cells too though. The used batteries are cheaper, but I would recommend spending some of the money you save on a BMS. Hybrid Auto Center uses the Orion BMS on their packs, which plugs and plays with the Curtis controllers used with HPEVS AC motors.

I'm planning on Leaf modules with a ZEVA BMS though, because I'm weird like that.


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## Wirenut (Jan 16, 2016)

jwiger said:


> I'm planning on Leaf modules with a ZEVA BMS though, because I'm weird like that.


Hahaha! I'm totally sold on the leaf batteries. I just watched Jack Rickard's breakdown of them and it seems to be a no brainer.

It might be an option to go with duel HPEVS motors and Curtis Controllers so the Orion might be the way to go. I've heard the talk against BMS so I guess I'm going to have to do some more reading to decide on that one. I'm going to start looking into how many of those leaf batteries I can cram into that little 818 chassis.

https://youtu.be/oZuu4YMhXI0?t=24m54s


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## Tomdb (Jan 28, 2013)

The reason to not go for the Subaru layout longitudinal is for space. 



















I would suggest looking into fitting a transverse setup, possibly an siemens motor and transmission from azure dynamics or a uqm setup from a coda. Going transverse will free alot of space.

Hansens 818. Fits 48 100ah cells, http://www.evwest.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=4&products_id=208 From that pic I would say max 8 cells wide. so 1.1 meter and 3 cells deep 200mm, before you hit the rear supspension mounting. This would fit the whole rear of the chevy volt pack, so the 4 kwh module and the 4+2 kwh module. So for room it should not be in issue to get a complete volt pack or two in there, since stacking would also be possible.

If you got some measurements of the frame i could mock some up in cad.

Mind sharing where abouts you live?


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## Wirenut (Jan 16, 2016)

This is good stuff. Thanks for the offer! I live in Indonesia currently but will be building the car in Dallas,Tx USA. Ordering the chassis today so it will be around two months before I receive the chassis for measurements. I will try contacting some other owners and see about getting measurements. If not, I can have you measurements sometime early May.

I would love to talk about the transaxle option. I looked at going for one of the Coda drivetrain so but, the Coda performance was so sluggish (0-60 10+sec) I couldn't see how I could close the gap on where I wanted to go. I've got to figure out what kind of gearing I would need to make a transaxle work.

The leaf/volt battery option seems to get me a lot closer to the goal.


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## jwiger (Oct 18, 2014)

The Coda was programmed to go much slower than it could go. Take a look at the UQMs specs on the EVTV site. It might be a good starting point for you. I can't think of to many AC setups that really get close to your performance goals with out going over budget. DC can get you there easily.


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## Wirenut (Jan 16, 2016)

jwiger said:


> The Coda was programmed to go much slower than it could go. Take a look at the UQMs specs on the EVTV site. It might be a good starting point for you. I can't think of to many AC setups that really get close to your performance goals with out going over budget. DC can get you there easily.


Yeah. That's why I started looking at DC. Obviously, I would prefer A/C if I could get it quick enough. I'll take a look again.


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## Wirenut (Jan 16, 2016)

Another idea:

What if I mated 2 HPEVS AC-76s? Maybe use a 60 pack of leaf batteries? In theory we are talking 360ft/lb of torque and 180hp. 

I know my weight is getting up there but.....


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## miscrms (Sep 25, 2013)

You might enjoy playing around with this:
http://www.offroadvw.net/exceldyno/

For AC motors you can often directly enter the data from the manufacturers curves since they give torqe/hp vs. rpm for a given motor/controller combination. If you are targeting 1800 lbs, a dual AC-35 might even be enough. When I put in the 144V/500A curves on my 1800 lb FWD, using a 2 speed 10:1,6:1 shifting at 6k rpm, its estimating 4.5s 0-60mph, 12.86s 1/4 [email protected] (rpm limit). For my current setup that's only true when ignoring wheel spin though. With tire friction of 0.9 it estimates wheel spin up to 64mph  So more torque might not really do you much good unless your setup has a lot more grip. 180 ftlbs of torque might not sound overly impressive, but remember that torque is being applied almost constantly from 0 to 5000rpms.

DC Motors are trickier. You usually have to find a combination that someone has put on a dyno and published.

I can't in any way vouch for the accuracy of this tool though. What I can say is that when I put in all the Vehicle, Motor and Gearing parameters of a stock Nissan Leaf its predictions were very close to real world numbers folks have reported for 0-60mph and 1/4 mile. Since I'm using the Leaf motor/inverter and battery I was reasonably convinced in its usefulness.

Keep in mind too that the battery has to be able to make the same amount of hp/kW as the controller and motor. 500-600A is about twice stock, and probably about the most you want to try pulling out of the Leaf batteries:
http://elmoto.net/showthread.php?t=3668

Rob


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## Tomdb (Jan 28, 2013)

Got a roller weight for me? So a 818 without the engine,fuel tank and rad.
I can then run some numbers

guess you came across this one too?
http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showthread.php/factory-five-818sex4-awd-dual-ac-140314.html


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## dougingraham (Jul 26, 2011)

Wirenut said:


> I am purchasing a Factory Five 818s kit and I want to go electric.
> 
> 1. 0-60 Sub 5 secs. (mid 4's would be great)
> 2. 60 miles range (more would be great as always)
> ...


Yes. You should be able to hit sub 5, and probably closer to 4 sec if you have enough traction.

With a 22 kWh pack and assuming 2000 lbs you could expect at least 200 wh/mile giving a drop dead range of 110 miles. Using only 60 miles would give you a long life on the pack.

The Warp 11HV is a good choice for this if you can find one.

The Soliton 1 is a reasonable choice if you can find one. They are currently out of production. I would look for the EHV Zilla 2K. That will give you the greatest flexibility with motors.

If you use a Zilla EHV the current Manzanita recommendation is 360 volts max, not 400. This would let you go to a 100 cell pack of LiFe cells assuming you charge to 3.6 volts. In reality you could probably go to as high as 106 LiFe cells in series. I would limit the motor current to 1400 amps. This should give you around 325 lb-ft of torque.

A Tesla drive train would be a good suggestion if someone actually had one working in a car. By the time you have this ready to go someone might.

I would look into Volt or Leaf batteries as you could end up with more for less money, less weight and less space. The 72 ah CAM cells don't have a lot of use at high power levels. At 106 cells and a 3C load you would expect a mid charge power output capability of 71 kW continuous. I don't know what it would do when you try to go to 390 kW which the 11 HV can absorb. So those are going to be your limiting factor even with a Soliton and 1000 amps.

Top speed in 6th gear if not drag limited would be 136 mph assuming redline of 5000 rpm, 0.7 for the 6th gear ratio and a 3.9 final drive and 255/35R18 tires. I think 100 mph will be easy and around 12 seconds. I doubt you would ever make it to the 136 number would is possible. The gearing is wrong. First gear will be good for making smoke. You would have over 2G accel of torque available up to around 15 mph. 2nd gear will test your tires at about 1.5 G available up to around 30 mph. Third gear would be around 0.85 G or typical street tire traction levels up to around 42 mph. This would probably be the gear to do lazy 0-60 runs (no shifting) as redline is at 65 mph. Best times would be shifting from 3rd to 4th at around 45 to 50 mph.

Best Wishes with your project.


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## dougingraham (Jul 26, 2011)

Wirenut said:


> Another idea:
> 
> What if I mated 2 HPEVS AC-76s? Maybe use a 60 pack of leaf batteries? In theory we are talking 360ft/lb of torque and 180hp.
> 
> I know my weight is getting up there but.....


The AC-76 has been discontinued. You would have to find used ones. I understand the issue was overheating as they were sealed and had no fans.

They are HP limited to around 80 by the controller. Not really a good choice for this.


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## Tomdb (Jan 28, 2013)

I believe the HPEV's motors will be too heavy/expensive for this application.


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## Wirenut (Jan 16, 2016)

dougingraham said:


> Yes. You should be able to hit sub 5, and probably closer to 4 sec if you have enough traction.
> 
> With a 22 kWh pack and assuming 2000 lbs you could expect at least 200 wh/mile giving a drop dead range of 110 miles. Using only 60 miles would give you a long life on the pack.
> 
> ...


Thanks for this reply.

This hits all my goals and then some. The gearing is what's killing me. Would you use the Subaru transmission or would you go another route? Maybe I could change the Subaru gearing. (Not me but, a shop)

I just put in the order for the 818 kit last night. That means I have a few months to start getting together components. I am really leaning toward using Leaf batteries. What's you opinion on bottom balancing vs. BMS?


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## jwiger (Oct 18, 2014)

Personally, if you're going with something other than large CALBs, a BMS is the way to go. 

CALB, being a larger ah typically, with a lower nominal voltage, and a steeper knee in the bottom end of the dischage curve are easier to catch before the go too low.

The Leaf batteries are a smaller capacity, and arent as robust as CALBs. Due to this it will be easier to let a BMS top balance them, to keep them in balance for you. 

If you're a gear head, the difference between bms and bottom balancing is just like EFI versus multiple carbs. If you like to get in a go, use bms, if you like simple nostalgia with the maintenance that comes with it, go with bottom balancing. The later will require less setup and fussing before your first go, but the former will give you years of less maintenence


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## dougingraham (Jul 26, 2011)

Wirenut said:


> This hits all my goals and then some. The gearing is what's killing me. Would you use the Subaru transmission or would you go another route? Maybe I could change the Subaru gearing. (Not me but, a shop)


I've thought a little more about your project. If your goal is to have a track day car that you maybe also street on the weekends you might want to consider another drive system. The motor controller should not be much of a problem to keep cool but the motor will be under those conditions.

What would be better? How about going all wheel drive eventually? Why not get a salvage leaf and drop in the Leaf motor/gearbox for your rear drive. The Leaf weighs considerably more than the 818 so even with just one motor and no gearbox it should be a little rocket off the line. If this works out get another drive and add front wheel drive. This would give you all wheel regen and water cooling on all the systems that will need it.

Other option would be a Tesla drive, either the small or large motor. This is uncharted territory however. I expect to see a lot of conversions with these drive systems in the next few years.



Wirenut said:


> I just put in the order for the 818 kit last night. That means I have a few months to start getting together components. I am really leaning toward using Leaf batteries. What's you opinion on bottom balancing vs. BMS?


If you bottom balance then you are the BMS. The type of cells used in the volt and leaf are not as easy to use or as forgiving as the LiFe cells. But they do have better Wh/kg and Wh/liter numbers than LiFe. I have not used this type of cell in an EV. But I kind of think you are going to want something to at the very least let you monitor individual cell voltage. They don't give this to Leaf drivers but then they are not using their cars on the track. You will be treating the cells harder than a normal drive in town would. So even if you are the BMS you are going to want a way to look at the cells.

No matter how hard you try there are going to be things you cannot anticipate. You are going to have to do some things a couple of times before you get it right. I would pick a system you can get to work so you can go have some fun and break some stuff. After your first couple of trials you will have learned a lot and can probably avoid some issues. But not on your first conversion. I imagine you are struggling a little with budget. We all do. Especially when we are not sure it is all going to work out. Once you get to drive it around the block that first time you will think it was all worth while.


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## miscrms (Sep 25, 2013)

Its a lesser known path, but I do think the Leaf system has enormous possibility. Its only rated for 80kW, but even that can be impressive in a light platform. The excel dyno predicts it to be better than an AC-51, better than a dual AC-35 (when geared single speed for same top speed) and almost as good as an AC-35 with optimized 2 speed. A dual Leaf system would probably be pretty badass. And there is reason to believe that a lot more performance can be coaxed out of the Leaf parts.

The dual AC-35 rating of 188Ftlb / 165kW is peak power. Continuous fan cooled is more like 50-60Ftlbs and up to 52kW. The Leaf motors ratings (and max usage condition in a Leaf) of 180ftlb / 80kW appear to be continuous ratings base ORNL testing (slide 12). Nobody yet knows how much harder it can be pushed, though there are people gearing up to find out with custom inverters. Rule of thumb seems to be 2-3X, it will be very interesting to see what they can acheive.
http://energy.gov/sites/prod/files/2014/03/f13/ape006_burress_2013_o.pdf

Similarly, the battery is only stressed to about 200A / 80kW max output in the Leaf, but testing has indicated about 44V droop at 600A / ~200kW.
http://elmoto.net/showthread.php?t=3668

I'm admittedly biased as I've already placed my bet on being able to make it work, but I think the $7k (after fees & shipping) I paid for a complete, driveable wrecked Leaf represents a phenomenal amount of potential EV performance for the money.

If you'd like to read more about my exploration into the Leaf system, and what it took to get it up and running on a tabletop follow the link in my sig below.

Rob


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## dedlast (Aug 17, 2013)

miscrms said:


> I'm admittedly biased as I've already placed my bet on being able to make it work, but I think the $7k (after fees & shipping) I paid for a complete, driveable wrecked Leaf represents a phenomenal amount of potential EV performance for the money.


And I made the same bet (for a bit more money) with a 2015 version of the same platform.

Bill


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## miscrms (Sep 25, 2013)

Here's hoping our luck holds out, Bill


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