# Solderless Framing A123 26650



## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

8 cell starting 6 cylinder
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j1tfL8lon9k


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## Stunt Driver (May 14, 2009)

WOW, that's a nice little emergency battery pack!
and a nice assembly. You offer them for sale yet?


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

Stunt Driver said:


> WOW, that's a nice little emergency battery pack!
> and a nice assembly. You offer them for sale yet?


Yep sold a few to bikers in the states and Europe too.
PM for details.
The R1 bat will have the same end frame technique but will stack 5 cells high


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## peggus (Feb 18, 2008)

What about the pressure relief valves?


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

peggus said:


> What about the pressure relief valves?


26650 have pressure relief valves ????
I thought they just ruptured the aluminium can and spurted their juice out.
At least thats what happened to the ones Ive blown up. 
The aluminium link plates are 12.6mm wide 1.45mm thick


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## etischer (Jun 16, 2008)

Arent you worried about the alumninum oxydizing? 



RIPPERTON said:


> 26650 have pressure relief valves ????
> I thought they just ruptured the aluminium can and spurted their juice out.
> At least thats what happened to the ones Ive blown up.
> The aluminium link plates are 12.6mm wide 1.45mm thick


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## peggus (Feb 18, 2008)

Well, valves is a bit of a missnomer. The positive endcap is designed to rupture at a certain pressure. If you constrain it the cell may explode rather than rupture. 

Or if you put too much compression on the cell you may break the seal and the cell will leak electrolyte and fail.







RIPPERTON said:


> 26650 have pressure relief valves ????
> I thought they just ruptured the aluminium can and spurted their juice out.
> At least thats what happened to the ones Ive blown up.
> The aluminium link plates are 12.6mm wide 1.45mm thick


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

Not really worried about corrosion, yes the link plates may corode but in that case the battery should be wraped up in a plastic bag.
heres inside of an 8 cell, note balance wires.








heres the insides of an earlier cardboard type A123


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## MN Driver (Sep 29, 2009)

I'm surprised how thin those internal conductors are considering both the continuous and pulse amperages A123 rates their cells for. Unless the pictures of those deceive me, I think I've got foil in my kitchen tha isn't much different than this.


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

Heres one cell out of 100 that I just bought from Ebay China (imotorbattery)
supposedly new cells, this one had spot weld marks in the positive end but not the negative end. Voltage was 3.3v.
Id love to know wtf is going on over there.


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## zwmaster (Nov 23, 2009)

My guess is that this is from after production 1st charge and capacity test, resistance measurement etc. This is normally done in sort of farm of cells chargers...
Some photo of other side of the cell?


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

I can't imagine they spot weld on a tab, only to one side, for testing purposes, then rip it off.


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## AntronX (Feb 23, 2009)

Hey Ripperton, how did you like that sweet smell after you hacked that cell apart? I wonder what chemical is that.


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## ZEVUtah (Apr 10, 2008)

RIPPERTON said:


> 26650's come out on top in a lot of cases but they are a pain to solder.
> So dont solder them.
> The framing system simply clamps the cells together and maintains contact pressure with 2 M4 screws per cell.


Nice modular system. It looks like you could expand this to build a string any size you wanted. Could you put together 24 in series for a 76 volt module and if so how much would it cost ?

KJD
http://www.evalbum.com/1414


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

JRP3 said:


> I can't imagine they spot weld on a tab, only to one side, for testing purposes, then rip it off.


Im thinking they are rebirthed DeWalts.
These are said to come from the China Factory ??
everyone says there is no A123 factory in China.
they are pirate knock offs.
I was going to make an A123 battery for the R1 but I decided to go with LifeTech.
If I cant be sure Im getting real A123's its not worth compromising the project with dodgy crap.


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

AntronX said:


> Hey Ripperton, how did you like that sweet smell after you hacked that cell apart? I wonder what chemical is that.


I got that stuff all over the curtains when I shorted 2 cells out building a 4 cell frame battery. I got the base plate 90 degrees out and even managed to get the screws in before realising the cells were in meltdown mode.
The heat in the aly connector plates melted the nylon and they receded back away from the cells effectively open circuiting.


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## TX_Dj (Jul 25, 2008)

Ripperton- how much would you sell a set of those A123 plates for? I've been contemplating swapping A123's (even chinese knock offs) in place of the AGMs I'm using in my little scooter.


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## AntronX (Feb 23, 2009)

RIPPERTON said:


> I got that stuff all over the curtains...


Oh no. After I took mine apart, I had to put the remains in air tight container to keep that smell from seeping out and giving me a headache. I was surprised how thin and long the foil connecting the terminal to the battery was. I don't think it's safe to go over 15 - 20A for more than few seconds with a conductor that thin inside the battery. Unless my cells were Chinese fakes, A123 should rethink the way they connect their batteries. Mine has "made in China" on them, but they have those distinct A123 white paper sleeves and a bunch of barcodes and serial numbers on them. They also have a number laser etched into the aluminum can itself.


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

More evidence of A123 pirates
heres one of my small 8 cell motorcycle batteries, see if you can tell whats wrong with the cell thats arrowed.








I also just compared cranking power of 2 8 cell batteries, one made with green Chinese cells and one made with old cardboard cells probly out of a DeWalt pack I bought over a year ago. I used both batteries in turn to start my 6 cylinder Ford Falcon as I did earlier in the YouTube vid.
The cardboard cells started the engine 3 times in a row. the green cells did not bring the motor to turn over or continue cranking.
An 8 cell battery using green cells will not even start an Aprilia RSV twin.
Just wish I could get real A123 cells and Id have a great product.
Oh the heatshrink is on backwards !!


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## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

RIPPERTON said:


> ...
> Just wish I could get real A123 cells and Id have a great product.
> Oh the heatshrink is on backwards !!


Wow... that's a seriously scary mistake. Thanks for taking the time to post this... and for your tests with the actual cells.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Would this caveat apply to the cells in the DeWalt packs too, or just the individual cells being offered, say, on Ebay? I want A123s and short of finding some magical inside connection, the only way I see to make sure they're real is buying DeWalt packs. Hoping that's still safe...


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

toddshotrods said:


> Would this caveat apply to the cells in the DeWalt packs too, or just the individual cells being offered, say, on Ebay? I want A123s and short of finding some magical inside connection, the only way I see to make sure they're real is buying DeWalt packs. Hoping that's still safe...


DeWalts are the real thing but I couldnt use them in my bike batteries cause they are cardboard (look crap) and they have spotweld marks.

Another thing I found in this last batch is that about 1 third of the cells had about 3.6v straight out of the box.
I had to sort all the cells into 2 catagories, normal being 3.3v aprox and high voltage , around 3.6.
So I made normal batteries and highvoltage batteries using the 3.6v cells.
One battery I put together had 14.8v without even charging it.
Dont know how long they will last.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

RIPPERTON said:


> DeWalts are the real thing but I couldnt use them in my bike batteries cause they are cardboard (look crap) and they have spotweld marks...


Cool, thanks for the info, and thanks for posting this thread - very informative.

I would prefer to have the nice green cases, for marketing purposes, but since my batteries will actually be in cases and out of sight I can deal with the cardboard if necessary.


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

heres another fail but dont yet know how this happened as havnt yet spoken to the owner.
Track bike going around Eastern Creek and it cut out, Battery was fizzing and spurting fluid so he somehow pulled the battery out and placed it on the ground beside the track....then.... POW.
the blown cell is in the right way up as the copper straps are on the negative end and thats the negative end of the bat.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Ouch!  That could put a nice burn on a leg. Probably a good idea to put some shielding around any batteries that are near body parts.


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## drivin98 (May 9, 2008)

I can imagine A123 would be interested in knowing about these cells blowing up. If they are Chinese knockoffs they might be even more interested. Here's a link to their contact page. http://www.a123systems.com/a123/company/contact


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

drivin98 said:


> I can imagine A123 would be interested in knowing about these cells blowing up. If they are Chinese knockoffs they might be even more interested. Here's a link to their contact page. http://www.a123systems.com/a123/company/contact


LOL
I dont feel the need to do A123 any favours
Its their policy of not selling to the public that has created the pirate knockoff industry in the first place. They deserve everything they get. I have reported the Ebay seller to Ebay customer support for false advertising ect.
Besides they already know about the knockoffs.
This is an isolated case however and still dont know how it happened.
Could be user tampering, voltage regulator on the bike could have failed.
foreign object. User still hasnt contacted me and I def want this battery back so I can do an autopsy.


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

JRP3 said:


> Ouch!  That could put a nice burn on a leg. Probably a good idea to put some shielding around any batteries that are near body parts.


All road bike batteries are in plastic boxes and well away from any body parts that are covered in leathers so no chance of injury


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

I used to ride in nothing but shorts and a helmet on hot days


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## peggus (Feb 18, 2008)

Yup, that's what happens when you block the pressure relief mechanism. Geee, if only someone had told you about that....

Oh wait: http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showpost.php?p=163501&postcount=8

The cell would have still failed (unrelated) but it wouldn't have been nearly as exciting.

As to why the cell failed, well it might have something to do with excessive heating due to corrosion of the aluminum busbars, shame nobody warned you about that either......

Oh wait: http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showpost.php?p=163470&postcount=7







RIPPERTON said:


> heres another fail but dont yet know how this happened as havnt yet spoken to the owner.
> Track bike going around Eastern Creek and it cut out, Battery was fizzing and spurting fluid so he somehow pulled the battery out and placed it on the ground beside the track....then.... POW.
> the blown cell is in the right way up as the copper straps are on the negative end and thats the negative end of the bat.


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

peggus said:


> Yup, that's what happens when you block the pressure relief mechanism. Geee, if only someone had told you about that....
> 
> A123's make their own pressure reliefs by rupturing the cases
> 
> ...


User error might explain why he hasnt contected me yet.
I would try to find out why it blew up and offer to replace that cell and check the others


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

RIPPERTON said:


> A123's make their own pressure reliefs by rupturing the cases


That's sort of what he said, that they are designed to pop the positive endcap to relieve pressure. If that isn't allowed to happen, they explode.



RIPPERTON said:


> why corrosion would cause heating



Increased resistance.


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## peggus (Feb 18, 2008)

Aluminum corrodes almost instantly on contact with oxygen and forms a thin layer of aluminum oxide on the surface. Aluminum oxide is an insulator which is why aluminum makes for exceptionally bad pressure contacts. To get around that you need to plate the aluminum with a non corroding metal, most commonly nickel is used. There are products like noalox that help prevent the oxide layer from forming but even with it aluminum is problematic to use. Especially if you can't put very high pressure on it due to the cells structural integrity.

The failure of the pack was almost certainly due to the flawed design.


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

To the best of our collective knowledge, does A123 have a factory in China ?
I have located a RC shop here in Sydney that has contact with a supplier of "genuine" A123 cells from an A123 systems factory in China.
They are about $14.30AUD each for an order of 300.
Heres a shot of the 26650 cell I am planning on buying.


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## webfootguy (Sep 11, 2007)

Yes, A123 has most of their manufacturing operations in China. They also have some in Korea and recently in Michigan (to build their new Prismatic line of cells). You can read most of the details from their Quarterly or Annual report online for free. Here is their most recent report: http://ir.a123systems.com/secfiling.cfm?filingid=1104659-10-43671

The M1 26650 cell is a real power champ (the China clone cells look good but fail in practice either in power delivery or early cycle failure, ugly at best).
--phil



RIPPERTON said:


> To the best of our collective knowledge, does A123 have a factory in China ?
> I have located a RC shop here in Sydney that has contact with a supplier of "genuine" A123 cells from an A123 systems factory in China.
> They are about $14.30UAD each for an order of 300.
> Heres a shot of the 26650 cell I am planning on buying.


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## mjcrow (Jan 5, 2008)

RIPPERTON said:


> To the best of our collective knowledge, does A123 have a factory in China ?
> I have located a RC shop here in Sydney that has contact with a supplier of "genuine" A123 cells from an A123 systems factory in China.
> They are about $14.30UAD each for an order of 300.
> Heres a shot of the 26650 cell I am planning on buying.


Hi Ripperton, you might want to check out this thread on the ES forums http://www.endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=31&t=19717 the guys name is Paul, he's a Pom living in China, he was selling the A123 Pouch cells but cant get them anymore, so now he's selling the A123 26650M1A cells for around $6 US + shipping. Anyway this is the old thread for the pouch cells with customer feedback etc http://www.endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=31&t=14832


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

So I got 10 sample cells from the Hobby shop that are supposed to be A grade.
tested them and they put out 100 amps each on the Carbon Pile load tester which is the same as the B grade cells Ive been buying off Ebay.
Also didnt start the Falcon which the earlier DeWalt cells could do easily.
Ive still got used DeWalt cells here that put out 120 amps
The packaging had a label on it saying it was posted from South Korea.
Discussion with the Hobby shop guy revealed the cells are made in China and shipped to Korea where they are tested and sleeved with a lot number
on it.
so lucky I didnt buy 300 of them, back to the drawing board.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Have you contacted Paul, cell_man, on endless-sphere?


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

JRP3 said:


> Have you contacted Paul, cell_man, on endless-sphere?


Yes
but no response
I asked him for 10 sample cells with the view of buying 300 cells.

The hobby shop guy has written to the Factory. 
popcorn smiley


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

JRP3 said:


> Have you contacted Paul, cell_man, on endless-sphere?


Whats wrong with this guy
Ive written 3 Emails so far to this Emissions Free site and no response.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

I'll try to contact him, I have in the past. He's away for a few weeks so he may not have access to his email.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

I contacted Paul through PM on endless-sphere. He is away and only checking in occasionally but he should be getting your messages. If you don't hear from him I can PM him your contact info if you wish.


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

JRP3 said:


> I contacted Paul through PM on endless-sphere. He is away and only checking in occasionally but he should be getting your messages. If you don't hear from him I can PM him your contact info if you wish.


Thanks JR
He has contacted me and will be back on the 17th Sep.
I dont think I will be getting my hands on the mythical 150A cells
that I used to start the car.
My theory now is that there is "Pre Law Suit Chemistry" (150A cells)
which dont exist anymore
and "Post Law Suit Chemistry" (100A cells).
Ive made an 8 cell battery out of the South Korea cells
(which only puts out 200A) and it seems to start a 4cyl liter bike ok.
Ive given the battery to a friend to test. He has a CBR1000RR and rides
60km a day to work and back. I told him to take a lead acid with him
just in case. Then have another friend who has a Hyabusa, see if this battery will start it.
Bottom line is the South Korea deal is paying $14.30 for an EBay cell.
Im predicting Cell Mans cells are the same 100A cells but the difference is Im paying $6US a cell. Plus I dont think CellMans cells have lot numbers which I now know is purely aesthetic, as the South Korea cells have lot numbers.


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

wonder where these guys get their cells from
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kpqvpqklyk0&feature=related


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

With the kind of money they seem to be dealing with, plus sponsorships, they're probably getting them from A123 directly.

Actually I guess the pack was put together by these guys:
http://www.lithiumstart.com/


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

check these out
the lot number is in a different place on each cell.
at least the guy is honest and says they are used

http://cgi.ebay.com.au/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=150469792019&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

News Flash
I have just recieved my 12 sample A123 26650 green cells from Hobby King in HongKong and have tested them on the Falcon and started it 4 times in a row.
http://www.hobbycity.com/hobbycity/...p?catname=LiFePo4&idCategory=218&ParentCat=85
The same 8 cell battery put out 260 peak amps on the Carbon Pile load tester.
The cell in the top half of this photo (which would not start the Falcon) I got from the Enerland Factory through a Sydney based Hobby shop so even B grade cells are being sold by the same factory that cells A grade cells (lower half of photo) which I started the falcon with in this YouTUbe vid. So go figure that shit out








http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lS6GLFn-8Ss


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## LincsTM (Aug 23, 2013)

RIPPERTON said:


> Yep sold a few to bikers in the states and Europe too.
> PM for details.
> The R1 bat will have the same end frame technique but will stack 5 cells high


Hi,
I am new to the site but have been reading your thread with great interest, I am building a custom Trike and would like to use your battery Pack in the build, could you tell me if you are still selling this pack and if so how much.
Thanks,
Tim


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## Siwastaja (Aug 1, 2012)

LincsTM said:


> Hi,
> I am new to the site but have been reading your thread with great interest, I am building a custom Trike and would like to use your battery Pack in the build, could you tell me if you are still selling this pack and if so how much.
> Thanks,
> Tim


Hi, don't do that. As you can see reading the thread, the design is seriously flawed and only works by luck and may cause an accident.

Use what others use. If the 40 Ah prismatics are too large for the project, consider using Headway cells, with the official series connection busbars.

Cells such as shown in this thread cannot be used in any other way than spot welding. Sorry.


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## LincsTM (Aug 23, 2013)

Siwastaja said:


> Hi, don't do that. As you can see reading the thread, the design is seriously flawed and only works by luck and may cause an accident.
> 
> Use what others use. If the 40 Ah prismatics are too large for the project, consider using Headway cells, with the official series connection busbars.
> 
> Cells such as shown in this thread cannot be used in any other way than spot welding. Sorry.


Hi,
Thanks for letting me know about the problem with the packs.
Could you just clear up a couple of things for me, with the Headway cells:-
1. I take it that I would need 4 cells connected in series with the out put leads coming from the positive and negative terminals and then connected straight onto my trike.
2. Would the generator on the Yamaha engine keep the batteries charged.

As you can tell I am no Electrician but I am always willing to learn.
Thanks 
Tim


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## StorminFace (10 mo ago)

RIPPERTON said:


> 26650's come out on top in a lot of cases but they are a pain to solder.
> So dont solder them.
> The framing system simply clamps the cells together and maintains contact pressure with 2 M4 screws per cell.


I wish to purchase a 4s2p kit from you asap please. My email is [email protected]


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