# 1993 Geo Storm Conversion



## AlaskaStar (Feb 25, 2010)

For ip legal reasons this information is removed.


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

You have more courage than most of us to attempt building a motor from scratch. Welcome to the forum! Glad to have you here.

Do you know how much power you expect to get out of the motor?
What controller will you be running?


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## gskellig (Feb 1, 2010)

I think he said he built the controller and throttle himself also. That's amazing. I wish I had the skill/resources to build myself an AC motor.

The motor looks small, I wonder if it's small enough to fit inside a wheel?


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## AlaskaStar (Feb 25, 2010)

For ip legal reasons this information is removed.


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## One Equals Two (Feb 25, 2010)

I'm curious, where/what did you study to learn how to build a motor from scratch? I'm not afraid of building something from scratch, but I have no clue on where to start. The same goes for a controller, I'm very interested in making my own, but again, I have no idea where to even start. I can't even find a website that shows me how the stupid things work! Thanks!


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## etischer (Jun 16, 2008)

Have you actually run the motor? The wires look a bit on the skinny side for pulling 85hp. Does the rotor slide on the splines, or are there bearings to hold it in place? I think 600+ miles per charge is a bit optimistic. 



AlaskaStar said:


> Platform is a 1993 Geo Storm, with a standard transmission.
> 
> The electric motor, controller, and battery management are of my own design and build.
> 
> ...


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## One Equals Two (Feb 25, 2010)

I myself am quite similar, except that I prefer to scan my books into my computer because I hate carrying all that weight around. And text conversion and search tools are invaluable for efficiency. A lot of book people hate when I slash bindings and run it through a scansnap. You might too, but that's besides the point. I can read a textbook in 2 days now thanks to my laptop. Technology enhanced learning is amazing. You might like it too. 

For me? I am curious to know how to build a motor period, because I'll build one, then another, then another. I have a general idea of how they are constructed, but as the science of selecting what wire to use, what magnets, etc, I am at a loss. My only experience building an electric motor is with a homemade RC dragster which I lost control off and drove it into a mailbox. The end project motor I am looking for is somewhere in the 550 Kw range (not a mistype). I want to install it in a full size pickup that weighs 5000 lbs dry, so that kind of power I want. 

I also would need a compatible controller, which I still can't manage to find a good source on how they even work. When I understand how the entire thing functions, then I'll be able to make my own, but until then, I am looking at the $6000 Zilla controller in disgust. My car wasn't $6,000 and it's FAST! 

You can all hate on me, that's fine, but my opinion is, is that the electric car parts available are entirely too expensive for what they do. I looked at a few people that were as happy as they could be with a $14,000 95' S10 that had a top speed of 60 mph and could go 40 miles. For $14,000 I could have my car running a 1/4 mile in 8 seconds and buy race gas for the year. So, I want to make my own and save the thousands and thousands of dollars on pre made parts. 

Sorry, anyway, all really I am searching for here is a good set of blue prints, or a DIY build up step by step or something that outlines the parts and functions. I agree with the whole doing thing, but you can start three or four steps ahead of the game if you learn before you do. i.e. I rebuilt an entire Honda Civic engine and installed it with only one error my first time. (Technically the error was defective part, so I was right in the first place). I learned how to do it before, and if I hadn't, I would have wrecked the whole motor and caused a lot of anger within for no reason. So, I'm looking at learning about all the parts of an electric motor and all the parts of the speed control. It's the whole, "Teach a man to fish..." principle with me. I'm looking for a reel and an fishing buddy now. I apologize for a longish rant.


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## gskellig (Feb 1, 2010)

One Equals Two said:


> I myself am quite similar, except that I prefer to scan my books into my computer because I hate carrying all that weight around. And text conversion and search tools are invaluable for efficiency. A lot of book people hate when I slash bindings and run it through a scansnap. You might too, but that's besides the point. I can read a textbook in 2 days now thanks to my laptop. Technology enhanced learning is amazing. You might like it too.
> 
> For me? I am curious to know how to build a motor period, because I'll build one, then another, then another. I have a general idea of how they are constructed, but as the science of selecting what wire to use, what magnets, etc, I am at a loss. My only experience building an electric motor is with a homemade RC dragster which I lost control off and drove it into a mailbox. The end project motor I am looking for is somewhere in the 550 Kw range (not a mistype). I want to install it in a full size pickup that weighs 5000 lbs dry, so that kind of power I want.
> 
> ...


Bro, I am with you 100%.
If I could build myself a motor and save $2,000 I would in a heartbeat, unfortunately I can't afford the time to teach myself everything from scratch. I am a student so I am tight on money and time.
I need a reel too. 

As for BMS, I've seen a few DIY solutions that look like they perform better than the incredibly overpriced ones you can buy. This is one of my favorites, and I've been thinking a lithium version wouldn't be too hard. (Little expensive maybe though).

AlaskaStar:
1. What type of batteries are you planning on using?
2. When are you taking orders for that motor/controller combo of yours? Haha.


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## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

One Equals Two said:


> ...
> You can all hate on me, that's fine, but my opinion is, is that the electric car parts available are entirely too expensive for what they do. ....


I'm guessing you've never heard of "economies of scale," because if you had you would instead be saying how amazing it is you can get a 300kW motor controller for less than $3000!

Your misconception is a common one, but it's still a misconception.


Back on topic...

AlaskaStar - it looks like you had the magnets cut with a waterjet - correct? Also, did you do any modelling of the motor in FEMM or similar finite element analysis software?

I'm with etischer on this one, though - that wire and those magnets look too small to develop high torque, and the rotor diameter is too large to support high rpm, so I'm estimating you might hit 10-15hp peak and not 85hp. How did you get that number?


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## wenowhavepower (Dec 24, 2008)

Something is fishy here but lets see how it plays out!
Lots of new users with the same view, sounds like one person!

Don't mind me ...


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## One Equals Two (Feb 25, 2010)

wenowhavepower said:


> Something is fishy here but lets see how it plays out!
> Lots of new users with the same view, sounds like one person!
> 
> Don't mind me ...


Lol, I am just one man (I'd love to be two at times) hence the name "One Equals Two" because there's a lot in this world to do, and I'm just one man, hoping for the power of two. 

I'm VERY FAR from Alaska as well, got pics of me and my house to prove it...




Tesseract said:


> I'm guessing you've never heard of "economies of scale," because if you had you would instead be saying how amazing it is you can get a 300kW motor controller for less than $3000!
> 
> Your misconception is a common one, but it's still a misconception.



Of course the market is tiny for these things, but the actual cost to produce one seems a lot less than the prices out there, making it out of reach or not as easily justifiable to purchase, probably creating a much smaller market in itself. So, what I was really getting at was that the market would probably be a lot bigger if the prices were lower. Like when the Model T came out, and soon after, everyday people were driving cars. 

Not saying high prices are bad relative to the production cost (people need to make a living!) but as for me, I'd rather spend $1,000-$2,000 on parts and build my own exactly how I want it, and then I have what I want for less, and it's a fun experience. 

And to ^^^, which controller are you referring to? I may buy one for $3,000, but everything I've looked at for my power "needs" is in the $6,500-$12,000 range.


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## dimitri (May 16, 2008)

You have fascinating DIY motor project and very positive attitude, it would be very interesting to see what your motor is capable of. However, there is absolutely no way you will get any range from lawn tractor batteries, regrdless of how many books you read.

I have those batteries in my electric push mower conversion and I use one as my 12V aux battery in my EV. In the mower these batteries can deliver 60Amp for 20-30 minutes and then they are done. That's at Florida temp, not Alaska temp.

Regardless of how efficient your motor/controller will be, even if its 100% efficient, there is not enough energy in those batteries to push 1000+ lb car for any reasonable distance. With 40 batteries you will get 10-15 miles range on the flat road at the hottest day Alaska can offer if you are lucky.

Its great that you are challenging motor designers, kudos to you for that, but please don't challenge laws of physics, because you will end up looking like a fool, just like all those posters in the overunity threads.


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## etischer (Jun 16, 2008)

mechanical power = torque x rpm
electrical power = volts x amps

Power out (mechanical) cannot be more than Power in (electrical). 

Cars the size of your Geo Storm would require at least 10kw to do freeway speeds, I don't see how your design would require any less. You can't get 10kw mechanical power out by putting 125 watts electrical power in. 

The air gap between your magnets is huge, I would work on getting it down to the gnats ass if you are striving for efficiency. Do you have some sort of encoder for commutation? I applaud your effort, this world needs more people with the "I can do it better" attitude.


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## dimitri (May 16, 2008)

AlaskaStar said:


> I have looked into the designs of many electric motors, and for the power input versus the torque output for the wattage consumed, I had to stack the efficiencies in my favor.
> 
> Let me ask you this:
> 
> ...


You can stack things all day, but power out is always less than power in, if you believe otherwise then we are done, nothing to see here.

Power required to move a car with any given weight is not a calculation, its a well known fact. If motor consumes 125 Watt of electric power, than it will produce less than 125Watt of mechanical power for useful work, i.e. pushing a car. If you think otherwise then I guess physics 101 was not in that library of yours and sir Isaac Newton was a fool.

Average human can pedal about 300 Watt , so by your logic you can put pedals on your car and get to freeway speeds without sweating too much. I think we both know its not possible.

Motor design is irrelevant and I know nothing about it, all I know is that power out is less than power in, always was and always will be.

Still fascinated by your DIY motor though and can't wait to see demo videos.


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## ScottRosa (Jul 7, 2009)

AlaskaStar said:


> .......... I am merely showing my electric car build, so that it may be an inspiration to others, and maybe some radical new designs that are super efficient come from it.
> 
> And yes I am an optimist to a fault, but I am not afraid of failure, and actually look forward to failed designs so that I may learn from them.
> 
> AlaskaStar


Great post. IF it fails, hope you at least inspire and improve the status quo...


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

Have you calculated how much power is needed to overcome rolling resistance and aerodynamic drag for your car at various road speeds?

It will be interesting to compare that with the power developed by your motor when it is up and running. Obviously it will be comparible at a constant velocity so then you can see what the power demand from the batteries is and then work out the overall efficiency of your set up.


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## dimitri (May 16, 2008)

AlaskaStar said:


> Gee...Who said it was over unity? Most of the energy into a motor is ultimately lost to heat the the Curie Effect on the magnetism which is the biggest problem in motor efficiencies.


So to illustrate your point I will take my EV as example. As I drive 60mph on flat road my motor/controller consumes approx. 200 Amps at 128V which equals 25.6 kWatt of power. Your statement leads us to believe that "most" of this energy is lost due to inefficiency of my Warp9 motor and Soliton1 controller. Can we quantify your definition of "most" ? Most conservative meaning of the word "most" would be 51%, so I will take that for the point of illustration, although I feel you meant more than 51% when you said "most".

So, by your logic I should be seeing at least 13kWatt of heat coming off my motor/controller, right? I'm pretty sure my motor/controller would melt by now since motor only has passive air cooling, yet I can hold my hand on it after driving for an hour. So, what am I missing? Where did the energy go? Into some parallel universe?

Funny you compare 125Watt car motor with 600Watt bike motor. Of course 600Watt is a lot of power for a bike with proper gearing, its twice as much as human can pedal. By your logic you could put that bike motor in a car and drive at freeway speed and still have power to spare since bike motor takes 5 times the power compared to your DIY motor. Or, do you imply that bike motor, which you did not built, so it must have very low efficiency, wastes most of that 600 Watt in heat? Say for the sake of argument it wastes 500 Watt in heat. You ever try to touch 500 Watt incandecent bulb with your bare hand? Your motor should be as hot as that bulb if it was that efficient.

I don't know why I even bother, I know for sure that no one can pursuade you to see faults in your own logic. People with similar ideas come often, but no one yet proved them. At least you seem to go further than others in that you are actually building something pretty cool looking. I applaud you for your efforts and can't wait to see YouTube videos of your test runs. Good luck! Sincerely.....


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## etischer (Jun 16, 2008)

AlaskaStar said:


> The air gap is for cooling. The gap is a mere 0.125 inches either side. Accounting for the end play on the input shaft of 0.100 inches, I think that 0.025 inch gap safety margin is acceptable. Don't you?
> 
> AlaskaStar


You stated earlier that the magnets you are using have a pull force of 55lbs. 
If you separate those magnets by 1/8", what happens to the pull force? The bigger your air gap, the less force you apply. If the gap gets really big, you apply 0 force, but still consume electrical power, meaning efficiency=0


I think your 0.025" safety gap is too small. 
- You are already seeing 0.100" of end play. 

- Once you get a bit of side load on that plastic ring, I think you will get more than 0.025" of deflection. 

- Once you get spinning, I think you will get more than 0.025" of wobble from the spline-spline interface. 

You should add some bearings to stiffen things up, reduce that air gap, and this will improve efficiency.


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

Guys, why don't we just let him build the darn thing and see how it works?

I think there are some valid concerns but so what? let him try, he's not hurting any of us by doing so. No need to get so worked up over this.


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## etischer (Jun 16, 2008)

david85 said:


> Guys, why don't we just let him build the darn thing and see how it works?
> 
> I think there are some valid concerns but so what? let him try, he's not hurting any of us by doing so. No need to get so worked up over this.


We all want him to be successful. If we think we can help the guy out, I don't see the harm in offering up some free advice. I'll stand back and observe if that's what AlaskaStar wants. Seeing how he is an Autodidact thirsty for knowledge, I'd think he would be open to ideas from those of us with some hands on experience.


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## Harold in CR (Sep 8, 2008)

I know who AlaskaStar is, and, he is one smart guy. Just let him do his thing. There is plenty of time to comment, once he shows his completed motor.


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## dimitri (May 16, 2008)

Harold in CR said:


> I know who AlaskaStar is, and, he is one smart guy. Just let him do his thing. There is plenty of time to comment, once he shows his completed motor.


Gee, what's wrong with having a forum conversation? We are keeping it quite civil so far, why is everyone up in the arms about it?

AlaskaStar started the thread before completing the test, so I assume he does not mind our comments. Isn't this what forum is all about? Having conversations.... 

Lighten up people 

I repeat again, I have utmost respect for AlaskaStar for taking his ideas to the point of real world implementation and not being shy to share it. I also applaud him for standing up for his beliefs even if they contradict basic physics, without degrading to insults or emotions.

Let's see what comes out of it.....


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## gor (Nov 25, 2009)

AlaskaStar said:


> ..
> Also the magnets (32 of them) have 55 pounds pull force EACH.
> 
> Now the magnetic coils, though they LOOK small and wimpy...when energized have a pull force of 112 pounds each. There's 16 of them.
> ...


A., congratulations on you built; 
looks interesting; please, few comments on your idea (why such design, advantages, effectiveness to utilise pull force this way, efficiency...) 
thank you


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## gor (Nov 25, 2009)

AlaskaStar said:


> A different design comes out to challenge status quo, and while it's accepted to consume power, it will (hopefully) consume power at a rate far lower than status quo and still be able to produce useful horsepower enough to drive a car. As far as motor design being irrelevant, I have to seriously differ in opine about this, motor design has EVERYTHING to do with it. A High speed Compound Motor does different than a Series Motor. Yet a Shunt Motor would have interesting characteristics if put into an electric car.
> ...
> I have a hall effect trigger to ensure proper bias direction and to trigger the circuit in sync to keep things happening properly.
> ....
> ...


A., could you comment more on your design (designs) principles and approaches?


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## etischer (Jun 16, 2008)

Are you planning on running the motor open loop like a stepper, or closed loop with encoder feedback? Will you have the ability to control torque?


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## etischer (Jun 16, 2008)

AlaskaStar said:


> Primarily open stepper but I will use a feedback trigger to ensure proper directional bias.
> 
> Starting in REVERSE is a really good way to have a bad day in traffic!
> 
> AlaskaStar


You ought to give some thought to torque control. When I was developing my inverter, I spent a few weeks trying to drive around with only speed control. I never felt comfortable driving this way because I always had to keep the motor following a master ramp. Accelerating up hill, or accelerating in a different gear needed a different ramp rate. Accelerating too quickly causes the motor to buck or stall. Coming to a stop using a combination of regen brake and friction brake really got tricky. Now that I have torque control, the car drives just like a normal car.


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## etischer (Jun 16, 2008)

I don't know how a brushless DC motor controls torque, but for my AC induction motor, torque is proportional to slip. 

Slip = Actual speed - Commanded speed. 

So to control torque requires you to know actual speed, either by using a tach/encoder or by sensing current on the motor leads. 

I do know brushless DC motors generally use an encoder for position feedback of the rotor. This replaces the commutator found on a brushed DC motor. Running open loop (like a stepper without an encoder), I imagine the motor would stall if you lost sync. 

How do you advance the rotor forwards once the poles of the permanent magnets are aligned with the coil magnets (as shown in pic below)? 










With a 4 pole stepper for example, the coil magnets are phase shifted 90 degrees apart, so sequentially energizing each of the 4 coils moves the stator fwd or rev. Looking at the pictures of your motor, it seems like the rotor would snap to the same location no matter which coil you energize, effectively being a 1 pole motor even though it has 5 coils.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

I am finding this fascinating watching.

It really will be interesting what the power output of the motor is compared to the electrical power input.

I can see what etischer is saying,the motor will cog to the same point each time as all the poles in the stator are in phase withthe poles of the rotor. Some will need to be out of phase to maintain slow speed rotation and starting.


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## One Equals Two (Feb 25, 2010)

There's a lot I just don't understand when reading these posts because "I hasn't been goodly learned yet." but I still don't under a one that is bothering me. 

If the required work to push a vehicle (especially the Storm) at 65 mph is going to be about 8,000-10,000 W, then how does 125 Watts of consumed electricity make that possible? And correct me if I am wrong, but, aren't electric motors already something like 88 - 92% efficient? I can see converting input power to work like, 1 hp @ 15,000 rpm at a monstrous gear reduction has the potential to move 1,000 lbs (more torque). But 1hp on a 12 lb car has the capacity to rocket that thing to 80 mph no sweat. But 125 W seems too little in this instance. 

I could be too close to the trees to see the forest, but I'd like to know what I am missing because I am obviously far behind in the technical aspect of all of this. 

But of course, I am enjoying picking up things here and there about electricity and such, thank you!


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

One Equals Two said:


> There's a lot I just don't understand when reading these posts because "I hasn't been goodly learned yet." but I still don't under a one that is bothering me.
> 
> If the required work to push a vehicle (especially the Storm) at 65 mph is going to be about 8,000-10,000 W, then how does 125 Watts of consumed electricity make that possible? And correct me if I am wrong, but, aren't electric motors already something like 88 - 92% efficient? I can see converting input power to work like, 1 hp @ 15,000 rpm at a monstrous gear reduction has the potential to move 1,000 lbs (more torque). But 1hp on a 12 lb car has the capacity to rocket that thing to 80 mph no sweat. But 125 W seems too little in this instance.
> 
> ...


One of the 'theories' that is sometimes written off as perpetual motion is the use of the energy stored in the magnets.

If you use a magnet to pick up a paper clip, the magnet has done work to the paper clip as it flies through the air to the magnet.
Sounds like free power except that power was used to energise the magnet in manufacture.

So the magnet could be seen as a storage medium.
Set up some magnets in the right configuration and you get some motion. Add a little bit of electrical or mechanical energy and you can get a lot more motion.

There are a lot of patents in this area but not too many products. Proving the theory has been either difficult to achieve or difficult to believe.


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## etischer (Jun 16, 2008)

AlaskaStar said:


> It needs to run between 2 and 7 amps and no more than 14 volts.
> 
> I thought he was crazy, but he stated that all my high torque is going to be in the low speeds which is generally used for starting out, and that the higher speeds will generate little to no torque at all, and would be perfect for an electric car setup like I am building.
> AlaskaStar


Emm, 28 watts, and "little to no torque" is not exactly "perfect" for an electric car motor.


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## dimitri (May 16, 2008)

etischer said:


> Emm, 28 watts, and "little to no torque" is not exactly "perfect" for an electric car motor.


Look on the bright side, with motor consuming only 28 watts the car with 40 lawn mower batteries will have a range of 6000 miles. AlaskaStar can visit Florida all on one charge


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## gor (Nov 25, 2009)

there are endless arguments in the Net, theories fights, bashings - do we need another?
we have wonderful opportunity now to see how motor, car born, designed and build
any word can spark a fight - thread will be desructed and go nowhere; may be theories battles not that necessary now on middle of build?...


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## gor (Nov 25, 2009)

AlaskaStar said:


> Ok, I had some cascade failures of the FETs and talked to an engineer regarding this motor. He was very knowledgeable in this area and after looking over the motor, the wires, the coils, magnets, etc, he determined I was pushing too many amperes into th system. It needs to run between 2 and 7 amps and no more than 14 volts.
> 
> I thought he was crazy, but he stated that all my high torque is going to be in the low speeds which is generally used for starting out, and that the higher speeds will generate little to no torque at all, and would be perfect for an electric car setup like I am building. I hope he's right on this one. Re-winding the coils with new wire is a total bugger and I have no plans on enjoying doing that again.
> 
> ...


Alaska, would it make sense complete motor according to original design, make test runs, rewire after banch test and compere results?
might show-up a lot of other thighs to consider


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

AlaskaStar said:


> Amen!
> AlaskaStar


I am keeping an open mind on this subject as I have been asked to peer review and progress the design of a system that includes some magnets.

Unfortunately I can't say anything more about it as I am bound by a secrecy contract until it is either proven to be useless or is patented.
However, we are under no delusions about it whatever the outcome of the review. Stuff happens but we don't know if there is a true net positive or net negative output yet.


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## wenowhavepower (Dec 24, 2008)

AlaskaStar said:


> Motor Controller: Quantity of 1, on it's way now.
> 
> AlaskaStar


So what did you end up getting ?


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## Camaro (Jul 29, 2008)

One Equals Two said:


> I am looking at the $6000 Zilla controller in disgust.
> 
> You can all hate on me, that's fine, but my opinion is, is that the electric car parts available are entirely too expensive for what they do. I looked at a few people that were as happy as they could be with a $14,000 95' S10 that had a top speed of 60 mph and could go 40 miles. For $14,000 I could have my car running a 1/4 mile in 8 seconds and buy race gas for the year. So, I want to make my own and save the thousands and thousands of dollars on pre made parts.


I feel the same way you do. Why the hell would I spend that much money on something I could build myself? 
I know that some people on here (people selling controllers) like to point out the challenges that happen when building once on controller, but this is a DIY forum.
We are on here because we like challenges. If it was easy, it wouldn't be worth it. 
I'm building my own 750-1000amp controller, and when I'm done and have it tested, I'll post all the info and code for everyone to use. Open source is the best source.

Camaro


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

I guess this is one of the drawbacks of modern (Western) society. If something reduces the taxable cost of living to the ordinary civilian then the powers in charge will get rid of it.

If it is something that we can't avoid using then it will be subjected to increasing taxation.
At the same time, we get cuts in pay while they get pay rises.

You can see that I am a bit miffed at our politicians wanting £100k pay increases and free child care while I only get 11 teaching hours a week to live on with no job security and job cuts in sight.

Rant over.


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## gor (Nov 25, 2009)

Alkaska, how's your motor doing?


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## gskellig (Feb 1, 2010)

You should sneak into the junkyard and take it all for yourself.


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## etischer (Jun 16, 2008)

I think you need to stagger your poles so each pole will sequentially index the rotor. Think of it like a 4 cylinder engine, each cylinder should fire sequentially. 

If all your poles align with the poles in the rotor, the motor will only move to one position and stop. You have built a 1 cylinder engine with a spark plug that fires whenever it wants to. 

You need an encoder to time when each magnet should be energized, you need "commutation". You could also add brushes and a commutator if you prefer the mechanical solution. 








AlaskaStar said:


> Motor is coming along. The top cover plate is now made from 1/2 inch thick aluminum plate. The Spacer Ring is made from 1 inch thick. Both cut on the waterjet table. The cover plate and the spacer weigh 44 pounds!!! That's more than the rest of the motor!! Now that was a painful one to take simply because I need to keep the weight down.
> 
> The motor controllers (all of them that were bought and tested) were unable to operate this motor.
> 
> ...


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## etischer (Jun 16, 2008)

You will want to consider the centrifugal force on your copper bars (and other spinning parts) before you start spinning, just so you (and us) have peace of mind it won't come apart. 

The centroid of your magnets look to be about 4" from center
At 2000 rpm you're at 450 G's
At 4000 rpm you're at 1800 G's
At 8000 rpm you're at 7200 G's


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## etischer (Jun 16, 2008)

I don't know what your inverter/controller looks like, but assuming you are making the same mistakes I made when I built mine, here is some advice:

You need to have a bank of capacitors to make a solid dc bus, I'm using a mix of electrolytic (for storage) and snubber film caps (for filtering). The distance between your DC bus and transistors must be kept extremely short to minimize inductance. When switching high current at high speed, any inductance in the wiring causes voltage spikes V=L (di/dt), which is a likely cause for your transistors exploding. My IGBT's had "avalanche" diodes built in.


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## etischer (Jun 16, 2008)

Doesn't a neon lamp need several 1000 volts to operate? I would think your FET would blow up long before the lamp dissipated any power. 



AlaskaStar said:


> The Back EMF is what is doing the destruction.
> 
> I had to revert to using not only rectifier diodes but also to put Neon lights before and after the diodes. The reason for the lights is that the HEXFETs have a reverse voltage resistance....HOWEVER that can be overcome at the right levels. If the reverse current has no place to go, then it will destroy anything trying to get there.
> 
> ...


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

etischer said:


> Doesn't a neon lamp need several 1000 volts to operate? I would think your FET would blow up long before the lamp dissipated any power.


Not necessarily. 
A simple tester screw driver for testing mains domestic power has a little neon lamp in it and a big resistor. Touch the end of the screw driver on a live wire and then place your finger on the back end of the screw driver handle and the neon will illuminate if there is voltage.

Equally a neon lamp can be found on electical switches that have an indicator lamp to show 'power on'.


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## peggus (Feb 18, 2008)

Interesting motor design.

From the pictures it appears that you have a large airgap between your two magnet discs, is that correct? You may want to consider using magnets that go all the way through or remove the gap altogether, thinner rotor.

Your copper fill factor appears to be very poor, do you plan to use more copper in your coils later? 

Are those cores solid? What do you expect your iron-losses to be? 
And won't you have a lot of fringing flux losses with cores so close together? Have you tested this motor yet?

Sorry, lots of questions, finally, could you draw up a schematic for your inverter? If you're having problems with the back emf blowing up your devices I suspect you're doing something fundamentally wrong.


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## etischer (Jun 16, 2008)

Now that I think about it, you don't want to burn up your back-emf. My AC motor requires at least 60 amps of magnetizing current per phase, this is all current that circuilates through the motor, though the diode, but does not come from the battery. 

If you burn this current up, your efficiency goes down the tubes. I doubt a neon light bulb will be enough to quench the back emf anyways.


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## etischer (Jun 16, 2008)

Ok, these claims are just getting silly. 800 miles through the Arctic Alaskan wilderness on a single charge of lead acid tractor batteries in a Geo Metro. 

Your BMS increased the life of lead acid batteries by 10x?

I'd like to see the calculations you did to justify these claims. 




AlaskaStar said:


> Been one very exciting week thus far in the electric car build.
> 
> Sterling Allen did a radio interview.
> 
> ...


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## wenowhavepower (Dec 24, 2008)

Hello Alaska,

Where's the information on "Winning idea: Battery Controller" ?
Was it actually executed/made or was it just an Idea?

As can't find any more information/links on it on: http://www.arcticinno.com/?page_id=652

Thanks


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## peggus (Feb 18, 2008)

From the article:
_"Though it wasn't his intent to design an "overunity" electromagnetic motor, I wouldn't be surprised if that is in principal what he gets when he is done – a system that taps into what Nikola Tesla described as the "wheelwork of nature.""_

Ah ok, now I understand.

_"In closing, Hunter urged, "Don't ever give up. Ignore the [skeptics], even if it's your family or friends [who mean well]. You can't gain success without learning from your failures."_

I predict that you will learn a lot!


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

AlaskaStar said:


> I had to build a commutator type setup for testing purposes because the controllers (all of them) were not capable of running this motor.
> 
> Took me only 2 hours to build the commutator, and a whole $27 in parts.


Don't the wires get all twisted around the shaft going from the coils to your commutator?


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## etischer (Jun 16, 2008)

LOL, you are talking to an audience of people who HAVE built their own EVs and have much more experience than you. We are not trying to flame you, we are trying to give you advice based on our experience, what is possible, and what is clearly not possible. If you are going to design something, surely you must have done some calculations before hand. How did you arrive at 800 miles range? 

For being such a self proclaimed hotshot engineer, you have some wild claims and no proof. The Wright brothers provided proof of their "Flying Machine" working. You on the other hand provide excuses for why you can't provide proof. You claim to have built a battery circuit that increases the life of the battery by 10x, but you have no proof of it's existence, and can't provide any details about it, or how it works? You shipped out 90 units and never got any feedback, not a word? If this product is as great as you say it is, why do we not see them used anywhere?





AlaskaStar said:


> Bench test results are all I have. Calculations mean nothing. Actual tests mean everything.
> 
> Lots of skeptics, lots of desktop experts who don't actually build and test theories, they can quote all day and all night, but when the rubber meets the road, and like the 90 units that went out to the first batch of skeptics they all shut their mouths when their intent was clearly to prove it impossible.
> 
> ...


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## dimitri (May 16, 2008)

Chris Hunter ( aka AlaskaStar ),

you are clearly a bright and handy individual, I give you that, but you demonstrate lack of respect to people around you and you make bold and pretentious claims before being able to prove any of them. Based on your attitude and actual achievements you probably should not be putting yourself in the same line with Einstein or Wright brothers just yet.

Making a contraption that spins using very little input energy is not that big of a deal, thousands have done it. However, those contraptions are not capable of doing any actual work. I have little doubt that your motor will spin eventually, but I have huge doubt that it will propel the car for any meaninful distance using your claimed power levels.

I also find it curious where you managed to find 90 testers with zero public feedback, were you giving samples to bums on the street? I bet if you gave 10 to people on this forum, you'd get at least 5 honest replies back.

So, to put my money where my mouth is, I am making a public bet right here on the forum, where I have been a contributing member for 2 years and got to know many wonderful people. I am willing to pay via Paypal one dollar for every mile your car with 40 lawn mower batteries travels on single charge. You'd get $800 if you go 800 miles or $10 if you go 10 miles. I know its a chump change for you and amount of money is not the point here. The point here is to put your money where you mouth is and get a little lesson in humility.

I won't even ask for too much proof, I would be satisfied with you making a public statement with your honest word and your name on the line and perhaps some videos of moving car and mileage and time records during the trip.

Thanks


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

AlaskaStar said:


> Power goes into the commutator and out through the slip-rings.


O.K. So the power is transmitted to the comm via the slip rings. Then the coil currents are reversed together via brushes on the segmented comm. Or vice versa. Right? Kind of like a rotating DPDT switch?

I think I read you're open source, so please share.

And then you use voltage control for speed and torque control?

Regards,

major


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## E-Freedom (Mar 20, 2010)

Hi All, 
I have read this thread beginning to end and what jumps out at me is the tenacious and "slightly" miss informed AlaskaStar, although I enjoy his project and his ability to go against the grain. Now for the interesting part....

Threads from "*etisher, woodsmith, dimitri, peggus & gor*" are very well informed of current motor designs, battery capacity, etc.... Whith all this as a given and AlaskaStar's motor design, what would you all suggest is requires to build a SUPER MOTOR for and EV. Probably direst drive through a differential, with re-gen, great torque and nominal RPM (~3k) . I do think AlaskaStar is onto something even thought the tolerances are weak, material choices problematic, workmanship a little left to be desired - BUT he is building it.. _(I am going to ignore the batteries and battery management for now)_

To recap of what I read;


Rotor - 32 - 55lbs 1" round magnets - 8"diameter
Stator - 16 coils with a very small gauge wire - 2 to 7 Amps per coil
ALL 16 coils activate at the same time using a Hall Effect sensor (sort of a stepping action, but provided by the controller) may be tricky but doable
12VDC
Custom controller
Probably more and I am sure I am missing something..

*SO, the challenge for all the very smart guy here, what are your suggestions for the perfect motor / improvements**.* 

I have read all the reasons why this will not work, what can he do better ! ! 

Energy-Freedom ! ! !


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## etischer (Jun 16, 2008)

E-Freedom said:


> I have read all the reasons why this will not work, what can he do better ! !


It's already been said. 
Stagger the poles
Reduce air gap to increase efficiency
Add bearings to reduce rotor endplay
Calculate forces to ensure it doesn't fly apart
Use laminated magnet cores to reduce eddy current losses
Use an encoder for closed loop control / commutation
Eliminate the brushes
Needs vector control (torque control) to be useful
Needs 40x more current ablity
Needs 20x more voltage ability



I think AC motors on the market today are pretty close to ideal, it's just nobody wants to pay for them. Their efficiency can be upwards of 90%, there isn't much room for improvement.


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## Qer (May 7, 2008)

E-Freedom said:


> 12VDC


If you're going to pick out, say, 50 horse powers (which means a little less than 40 kW) it means about 3000 Amps battery current. Typically your losses and controller complexity goes up with current until a certain voltage when voltage starts to become a bigger problem than current, therefore you want a pack voltage that is high enough to keep the current down but low enough to not be a problem in itself.

12 Volt isn't realistic.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

E-Freedom said:


> Threads from "*etisher, woodsmith, dimitri, peggus & gor*" are very well informed of current motor designs, battery capacity, etc....


How did my name get in there?? I know nothing, nothing I tell you!



Woodsmith said:


> I am keeping an open mind on this subject as I have been asked to peer review and progress the design of a system that includes some magnets.
> 
> Unfortunately I can't say anything more about it as I am bound by a secrecy contract until it is either proven to be useless or is patented.
> However, we are under no delusions about it whatever the outcome of the review. Stuff happens but we don't know if there is a true net positive or net negative output yet.


I am only involved in something like this because I know nothing and so have no preconceved ideas.
I am happy to keep an open mind until I see and measure the evidence.


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## E-Freedom (Mar 20, 2010)

Hi, thank you for your guidance, MAYBE this thread improve the ultimate design... 

I do enjoy these discussions as the are open minded and great information is exchanged.

E-F


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

AlaskaStar said:


> http://hunteraxialfluxmotor.blogspot.com
> 
> By the way... The deadline is to have this project completed and drive it to Fairbanks, Alaska on March 20th.


I wonder if he made it.


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

major said:


> I wonder if he made it.


Poor AlaskaStar must be lost out in the great white wilderness  Please tell me it ain't so. Where are you?


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## karlos (Jun 30, 2008)

I hope Alaska hasn't driven off from posting here, I enjoyed reading about his project and wish him every success. 
Alaska, I also hope if you are off on a long trip testing the motor, it's not at 2mph and that's why we haven't heard from you!?
Thanks Alaska for sharing your ideas, posting the pics and trying to explain what is different about your project.
Keep us posted with your progress please!


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## ScottRosa (Jul 7, 2009)

AlaskaStar, please keep the updates coming. I for one find it very interesting. I hope you prove everyone wrong, but I have to admit I am also a little skeptical. Mostly because I'm not smart enough to develop my own design and theories. I have to rely on existing tech by trying to learn by reading. So more power to you! Good luck.


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## zwmaster (Nov 23, 2009)

Do you use position encoder as feedback on to the controller?
Quadrature encoder and a good DSP can make up a controller that is far better then brushed commutator.


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

AlaskaStar said:


> We are working on a new design for the motor speed control,


Hey AlaskaStar,

Been a few weeks. Making any progress up there?

If you're interested, I've had some thoughts as to how you might get the thing to rotate with single phase AC. Might be a long shot.

Regards,

major


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

AlaskaStar said:


> Single Phase Variable Frequency, from 1 Hz up to about 1.2 KHz Maximum Amperage 96 amps (stall) before coil windings burn up.
> 
> Input is DC. Output needs to be Variable AC, Constant Voltage and Amperage.
> 
> ...


Are you talkin' to me?


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

AlaskaStar said:


> Yes. You said you might have a suggestion, so I gave the specs that might help with the formulation of an answer.
> 
> Yes I am talking to you.
> 
> AlaskaStar


Hi AlaskaStar,

If you're talking to me, then please address me. It is unclear on these forums to whom you are talking.

I said I might have a way to make that contraption of yours rotate. Have you been able to do this?

I did not offer nor am willing to send you a controller. I just see a possible way to configure your contraption to rotate under its own power. I think that is more than what you've been able to accomplish so far. Correct me if I am mistaken.

Regards,

major


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## E-Freedom (Mar 20, 2010)

Hi Major,
That was a non answer there other than you are not willing to help with a controller... So, what needs to be done to make this thing spin on its own ? Do you have ideas on controller design you would like to share to move Alaska's project forward ?


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## etischer (Jun 16, 2008)

If finding a controller to run the motor is a problem, maybe your solution is to make the motor match the controller. I still believe if you stagger the poles 120 degrees, and feed this thing 3 phase AC it should run. You would even be able to control which direction it spins =)




AlaskaStar said:


> Single Phase Variable Frequency, from 1 Hz up to about 1.2 KHz Maximum Amperage 96 amps (stall) before coil windings burn up.
> 
> Input is DC. Output needs to be Variable AC, Constant Voltage and Amperage.
> 
> ...


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

E-Freedom said:


> Hi Major,
> That was a non answer there other than you are not willing to help with a controller...


Hi E-Freedom,

I did not offer to make him a controller. I said I thought I might know how to make the thing rotate as a motor from single phase AC. I do not think he has been able to do this so far. I would think that getting it to rotate as a motor on 60 Hz AC would be a big help in eventually doing a variable speed controller. One step at a time kind of thing.



> So, what needs to be done to make this thing spin on its own ?


Like I said. I have an idea. But first I need to know if AlaskaStar wants to do this. Then I'll need some tests from him. Nothing too complex or difficult. Depending on data, I'll decide how to proceed.



> Do you have ideas on controller design you would like to share to move Alaska's project forward?


No, not yet anyway  

Regards,

major


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## E-Freedom (Mar 20, 2010)

Alaska,
Why bother, you are now headed down the road of what has already been done, a 3 phase AC motor - that is not exiting or revolutionary. I thought you were trying to build something different and new. Guess you are getting drawn into conventional thinking.


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## Qer (May 7, 2008)

E-Freedom said:


> Alaska,
> Why bother, you are now headed down the road of what has already been done, a 3 phase AC motor - that is not exiting or revolutionary. I thought you were trying to build something different and new. Guess you are getting drawn into conventional thinking.


Well, considering induction motors are on the high 90's when it comes to efficiency, I'd say there's worse things being drawn into...


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

AlaskaStar said:


> Now, respectfully, the floor is yours.
> 
> AlaskaStar


Hey AStar,

This looks similar to yours. Making any progress?

major


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## AlaskaStar (Feb 25, 2010)

Similar...to a point.

Progress? Yes.

Speed Controller is built and functional. Been busy working on other projects and gathering the steel for building the battery box.

Epoxy Based Paint seems to hold the best against H2SO4 corrosion of steel, but the steel needs to be spotless clean and wire-brushed, followed by alcohol bath to remove prior rust and properly clean the surface for painting. Found this to be useful, as the cheapest and most durable epoxy paint is Appliance Paint that can be bought at someplace like Lowes/ Home Depot.

I still need to assemble all the battery cables in the proper lengths, etc so that the battery box and cable routing doesn't look like a spaghetti mess. I am considering quick-connects, like the 'Bumper Jumper' things...but the price is a little steep when you are talking in numbers beyond 40 sets.

AlaskaStar


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## ScottRosa (Jul 7, 2009)

AlaskaStar said:


> Progress? Yes.
> AlaskaStar


Would love to see some new pictures if you get time.


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## Speed (Apr 29, 2008)

This is entertaining.


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

AlaskaStar said:


> Progress? Yes.
> 
> Speed Controller is built and functional.


Hey AS,

How's the progress up there? Long time, no hear.

major


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## AlaskaStar (Feb 25, 2010)

Motor Controller has arrived. It's a prototype unit, so after testing, I will be designing a Printed Circuit Board that has all that stuff that's currently jammed into the plastic case all nice and neat.

Testing to commence pretty soon...

Almost time to go to the drag strip and kick some gas!

AlaskaStar


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

AlaskaStar said:


> Motor Controller has arrived. It's a prototype unit, so after testing, I will be designing a Printed Circuit Board that has all that stuff that's currently jammed into the plastic case all nice and neat.
> 
> Testing to commence pretty soon...
> 
> ...


Cool  Any time for an update http://hunteraxialfluxmotor.blogspot.com/ with photos, maybe a video of it spinning?


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## AlaskaStar (Feb 25, 2010)

I guess I ought to update that eh?

The worst part of that blogspot is that it's so slow! That...and my bandwidth is slow (DSL....32kbits/sec is the fastest I have ever seen, but averages about 12kbits/sec on a good run)....so it's probably a 2-way street for tedious time spent updating.

Well, I'll update it tonight, I have more pictures anyway.

AlaskaStar


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## wenowhavepower (Dec 24, 2008)

AlaskaStar said:


> Here's an update....
> 
> http://frontiersman.com/articles/2010/06/20/local_news/doc4c1d99946d200627727825.txt
> 
> ...


Sorry if I am rude but that links does not really provide any new information.
Do you have any technical information on the battery extender etc?


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## wenowhavepower (Dec 24, 2008)

AlaskaStar said:


> Nope, note rude. Childish.
> 
> AlaskaStar


Not sure about childish, that link does not provide any relevant information that
we don't already know as you have posted similar links in the past. You post
a news link with very little information/substance.

Major asked if you had any news on the motor progress and you posted a news link that doesn't really say much relating to the motor.


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## wenowhavepower (Dec 24, 2008)

No need to apologize as i was not pissed.
Will just watch out for any updates.

Thanks


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## etischer (Jun 16, 2008)

I don't think anyone is asking you to reiterate information you have already provided. You said you are making progress and you were going to update your blog with new pictures. The last entry is 3+ months old.

Maybe you can post a video of the motor spinning. I'd love to see pics of the 250 hp controller. What voltage does it run at? 




AlaskaStar said:


> Of course it doesn't say very much.
> 
> However to recap all the things you already know, as designer of the motor, the battery management system, and such....I will reiterate all the things already known:
> 
> ...


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

major said:


> Cool  Any time for an update http://hunteraxialfluxmotor.blogspot.com/ with photos, maybe a video of it spinning?





AlaskaStar said:


> I guess I ought to update that eh?
> 
> The worst part of that blogspot is that it's so slow! That...and my bandwidth is slow (DSL....32kbits/sec is the fastest I have ever seen, but averages about 12kbits/sec on a good run)....so it's probably a 2-way street for tedious time spent updating.
> 
> ...


Hmmmm  It appears that AlaskaStar has deleted all the content from his blogspot.

What gives AS?


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

AlaskaStar said:


> For ip legal reasons this information is removed.


O.K. I get it


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

AlaskaStar said:


> For ip legal reasons this information is removed.


Hey AStar,

You still have this on the web which I don't think you can "remove". http://peswiki.com/index.php/Directory:ArcticTek:Chris_Hunter_(Alaska_Star)'s_Axial_Flux_Motor 

So I don't buy your reason. _



Last edited by AlaskaStar; 06-28-2010 at 02:11 PM. Reason: IP PROTECTION 

Click to expand...

 _

What is the real story?

major


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

major said:


> Hey AStar,
> 
> You still have this on the web which I don't think you can "remove". http://peswiki.com/index.php/Directory:ArcticTek:Chris_Hunter_(Alaska_Star)'s_Axial_Flux_Motor


*Photos *


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

AlaskaStar said:


> For ip legal reasons this information is removed.


"When I asked Hunter if he is concerned about his design being copied by people because it has been out on the web, keeping him from patenting those portions, he responded, "Competition is great!" He hopes many people will get involved in studying and replicating this technology,"

from:
Alaska Star's Axial Flux Motor revolution
*Alaskan inventor, Chris Hunter, is retrofitting his '93 Geo Storm with an electromagnetic motor of his own design, which draws from a wide range of scientific studies, including Flynn Parallel Path, Bedini battery rejuvenation, back EMF harvesting, and other innovations.*

by Sterling D. Allan
_Pure Energy Systems News_
Copyright © 2010


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## AlaskaStar (Feb 25, 2010)

Reason:

Business Partners (plural) went all paranoid berzerk over potential theft of ip.

My personal goal is to make it cheap and simple enough for everyone to afford, while maintaining super high efficiencies. 

I can't control other people, but I did what I must to shut them up.

Other methods of quieting them down are outright illegal in every country here on earth.



AlaskaStar


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

AlaskaStar said:


> Reason:
> 
> Business Partners (plural) went all paranoid berzerk over potential theft of ip.
> 
> ...


Sounds like you sold out  Well, good luck. I suspect we'll never hear from you again and all this has been a waste of our time 

Good riddance,

major


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## motorhedfred (Feb 12, 2013)

I happened upon this thread while searching Bing for axial flux permanent magnet motor images. I wonder what ever happened to this guy and his "intellectual property". 

Perhaps one of the big oil companies bought it and shelved it to protect their bottom line... or, maybe it wasn't so that great after all...or, maybe one of the big car companies bought it, it's being refined in thier super secret skunk works and AlaskaStar is sitting on the beach right now with his toes in the sand....

http://pesn.com/2010/03/16/9501627_Chris-Hunter_Alaska-Star_Axial-Flux-Motor/

MHF


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

motorhedfred said:


> I happened upon this thread while searching Bing for axial flux permanent magnet motor images. I wonder what ever happened to this guy and his "intellectual property".
> 
> Perhaps one of the big oil companies bought it and shelved it to protect their bottom line... or, maybe it wasn't so that great after all...or, maybe one of the big car companies bought it, it's being refined in thier super secret skunk works and AlaskaStar is sitting on the beach right now with his toes in the sand....
> 
> ...













He's got a new scam. I wonder if he gets 800 miles on a charge with it.

http://www.frontiersman.com/busines...1e1-9d46-0019bb2963f4.html?mode=image&photo=1


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## motorhedfred (Feb 12, 2013)

I'd be curious to know if that motor had enough torque to pull the car around. I've been looking at a Mazda MX-3 which I think would work well for this design. The MX-3 has a DOHC 1.8L V6 and replacing it with a compact motor design like this would leave lots of room batterys, electronics and lighten the nose considerably. Here's what it looks like underhood.

http://www.bing.com/images/search?q...7BBD362952C5276CE45E405C8FD&selectedIndex=119


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

motorhedfred said:


> I'd be curious to know if that motor had enough torque to pull the car around. I've been looking at a Mazda MX-3 which I think would work well for this design.


Forgetaboutit. The motor concept was a bad idea from the start. He never got it to rotate on its own let alone move anything else. He was after the awards, photos in the newspaper, press releases and ataboys more than learning or doing anything useful. What's worse is that he lies about it


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## motorhedfred (Feb 12, 2013)

Hmm, apparently integrity is not one of his virtues.

I find it interesting that he put that much effort into it with no positive results. It all looked good to the eyes of someone who doesn't know about motors with it's blue anodized mounting plate and all. It reminds me of the way Howard Hughes was portrayed in the movie "The Aviator". 

Still, I'm inclined to beleive that the axial flux design is viable as YASA Motors in England seems to have a workable geared unit availible. I did notice on AlaskaStar's motor with it's 16 stator coils and 32 magnets it looked likely to cog and lock up. Maybe 18 stator coils so there's no chance that all of them will be aligned with a magnet at the same time ? Am I thinking correctly ?


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

motorhedfred said:


> Hmm, apparently integrity is not one of his virtues.
> 
> I find it interesting that he put that much effort into it with no positive results. It all looked good to the eyes of someone who doesn't know about motors with it's blue anodized mounting plate and all. It reminds me of the way Howard Hughes was portrayed in the movie "The Aviator".
> 
> Still, I'm inclined to beleive that the axial flux design is viable as YASA Motors in England seems to have a workable geared unit availible. I did notice on AlaskaStar's motor with it's 16 stator coils and 32 magnets it looked likely to cog and lock up. Maybe 18 stator coils so there's no chance that all of them will be aligned with a magnet at the same time ? Am I thinking correctly ?


Certainly axial flux is a valid topology. Just everything else with his approach sucks. I don't think he ever considered polyphase. But this is not the thread to discuss such things. I'd suggest you forget everything you saw about that motor and start researching with some fundamentals and with something which actually works  Allow this thread the death it deserves.


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