# Looking for a 60 mile range on lead acid batteries.



## cricketo (Oct 4, 2018)

Don't do it...

300w/mi * 60 = 18kWh. For example at 36v (common forklift voltage) that is 500Ah. Here is an example battery Electric Forklift Battery 18-85-13-a, 36 Volt, 510 Ah (at 6 hr.) | eBay, it is 1300lb. Also lifespan of a deep cycle battery is severely shortened when it's cycled more than half way.

Also note the price - about $4000. For about $3000 you may be able to find a complete ~24kWh battery from a wrecked EV.


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## MattsAwesomeStuff (Aug 10, 2017)

Putting 60 mile range worth of lead on a Geo Metro is going to get you 60 miles downhill, once, and not have the power to take it back uphill.

There is no amount of shortcutting that makes lead viable (unless, maybe, maaaaaybe if you have and endless free supply of them).

A Geo metro is so small and so light, you can probably get 200 watt-hours per mile at highway speeds. So, you might get away with a 12,000 watt-hour pack. Pretty tiny.

Let's start at the beginning, so that you have a realistic approach to your cheapness and so that we're not being overly prescriptive of your questions.

What's your budget? What do you imagine this costing?

...

In other news, with current gas prices, I expect to see a flood of DIY Dreamers thinking "I'll make an electric car, and SAVE money!!" To which we can all tell them, no, go buy a used Leaf or add some batteries to a Prius.


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## remy_martian (Feb 4, 2019)

In addition, I just realized "AC motor" might mean washing machine. AC motor, like what?


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## JonEV2022 (10 mo ago)

remy_martian said:


> In addition, I just realized "AC motor" might mean washing machine. AC motor, like what?


I heard that an ac motor on an inverter can get faster acceleration. I heard Tesla uses an AC motor for this purpose.


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## 57Chevy (Jan 31, 2020)

MattsAwesomeStuff said:


> In other news, with current gas prices, I expect to see a flood of DIY Dreamers thinking "I'll make an electric car, and SAVE money!!" To which we can all tell them, no, go buy a used Leaf or add some batteries to a Prius.


Yeap, incoming. The cheapest/best thing anyone can do is get better paying employment. The extra 50 or even 100 bucks a week for gas is nothing compared to the amount of extra income over a year. I like high gas prices, gets the poor people off the road so I can get to work faster (_s)


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## remy_martian (Feb 4, 2019)

So, you want to tear a Metro to shreds?

For your conversion, it doesn't matter DC or AC. The car has low mass so will take off like a scared cat with a DC motor and a 144V battery.

96-144VDC is not generally deadly like the 400V AC stuff is...anyone doing a 400V conversion who's never worked with electricity or on cars, who is not working with someone who has, has a good chance of getting electrocuted. Electrocuted 💀


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## JonEV2022 (10 mo ago)

MattsAwesomeStuff said:


> What's your budget? What do you imagine this costing?


I
I'd like to spend about 15 grand max. I would buy a leaf, I looked into one, but the diminished range was off-putting. More concerning, the cost of replacing the batteries made me pass on it. If I have to reach lithium battery packs every 8-10 years for 6 grand I'm considering lead-acid (even if it's a <five year life span) if it's ultimately cheaper. If I convert the vehicle, I'll know how to service it.

Another reason I'm asking about lead acid is supply chains. Because most the world's nickel supply comes from Russia, the cost of NiCad and Ni Hydride and nickel containing lithium packs will go up. I'm considering lead because it may be cheaper and easier to acquire in the near future.


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## JonEV2022 (10 mo ago)

57Chevy said:


> Yeap, incoming. The cheapest/best thing anyone can do is get better paying employment. The extra 50 or even 100 bucks a week for gas is nothing compared to the amount of extra income over a year. I like high gas prices, gets the poor people off the road so I can get to work faster (_s)


I was trying to be polite and humble in my inquiry. I stated my lack of knowledge upfront. I really don't appreciate being insulted.


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## remy_martian (Feb 4, 2019)

It wasn't aimed at you.


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## cricketo (Oct 4, 2018)

JonEV2022 said:


> I
> I'd like to spend about 15 grand max. I would buy a leaf, I looked into one, but the diminished range was off-putting. More concerning, the cost of replacing the batteries made me pass on it. If I have to reach lithium battery packs every 8-10 years for 6 grand I'm considering lead-acid (even if it's a <five year life span) if it's ultimately cheaper. If I convert the vehicle, I'll know how to service it.
> 
> Another reason I'm asking about lead acid is supply chains. Because most the world's nickel supply comes from Russia, the cost of NiCad and Ni Hydride and nickel containing lithium packs will go up. I'm considering lead because it may be cheaper and easier to acquire in the near future.


Pretty sure if you are in the position to kill a Lithium pack in 8 years, you'll be replacing Lead-Acids every 6 months. How many miles do you drive per year ?

Nobody makes NiCad or NiMh for the industrial applications anymore btw.


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## remy_martian (Feb 4, 2019)

Your analysis is completely twisted up. A Leaf has nothing to do with a Metro.

Nickel spot futures have nothing to do with battery costs. Commodities generally rise together...you should be more concerned about copper...

The doors will fall off your Geo long before it'll need a battery changeout. There are also other battery choices. Lead is too heavy and too expensive for an EV...1908 EV technology.


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## JonEV2022 (10 mo ago)

remy_martian said:


> So, you want to tear a Metro to shreds?
> 
> For your conversion, it doesn't matter DC or AC. The car has low mass so will take off like a scared cat with a DC motor and a 144V battery.
> 
> 96-144VDC is not generally deadly like the 400V AC stuff is...anyone doing a 400V conversion who's never worked with electricity or on cars, who is not working with someone who has, has a good chance of getting electrocuted. Electrocuted 💀


So then I'll consider DC motor then with adequate specs. I understand there's mortal risks in electricity. I didn't say anything about the voltage of the AC motor. I looked at one guy's geo conversion project, which had a DC motor from a forklift. It had poor acceleration and reached only 45mph.


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## 57Chevy (Jan 31, 2020)

JonEV2022 said:


> I was trying to be polite and humble in my inquiry. I stated my lack of knowledge upfront. I really don't appreciate being insulted.


I don't mean to insult anyone and yea, it wasn't aimed at you. Trying to save money by making a DIY EV just isn't a thing but I fully expect a flood of people will try to. 

If you are keen to learn about engineering and are prepared to invest in a project over the next few years then good stuff, that is what we are here for. There are much easier ways to save money though. A forklift motor and lead acids is 1990s DIY EVs, heavy, underpowered and very limited range/speed plus a car full of acid should you ever tip it over. A recovered small EV battery and a moderately sized ac motor will make a nice project but not for 15k unless you can get stuff for free and do a lot of the engineering yourself.


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## JonEV2022 (10 mo ago)

remy_martian said:


> Your analysis is completely twisted up. A Leaf has nothing to do with a Metro.
> 
> Nickel spot futures have nothing to do with battery costs. Commodities generally rise together...you should be more concerned about copper...
> 
> The doors will fall off your Geo long before it'll need a battery changeout. There are also other battery choices. Lead is too heavy and too expensive for an EV...1908 EV technology.


Someone told me to consider buying a leaf as opposed to a metro conversion. I was responding to that. I know they're two different vehicles and that one is a ready made ev, where the other is a conversion project. 

As for nickel, if most of the supply comes from a country we can't purchase materials from due to blockades and sanctions. the price will certainly go up relative to a resource that have a more broad geological distribution around the world. Titanium is a perfect example of this. During the Cold War, it was very expensive to buy in western nations. In the new cold war, it will be no different.


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## JonEV2022 (10 mo ago)

57Chevy said:


> A forklift motor and lead acids is 1990s DIY EVs, heavy, underpowered and very limited range/speed plus a car full of acid should you ever tip it over. A recovered small EV battery and a moderately sized ac motor will make a nice project but not for 15k unless you can get stuff for free and do a lot of the engineering yourself.


I understand. Thanks for filling me in. I appreciate the input.


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## cricketo (Oct 4, 2018)

JonEV2022 said:


> Someone told me to consider buying a leaf as opposed to a metro conversion. I was responding to that. I know they're two different vehicles and that one is a ready made ev, where the other is a conversion project.
> 
> As for nickel, if most of the supply comes from a country we can't purchase materials from due to blockades and sanctions. the price will certainly go up relative to a resource that have a more broad geological distribution around the world. Titanium is a perfect example of this. During the Cold War, it was very expensive to buy in western nations. In the new cold war, it will be no different.


Again, this is not a common knowledge, but there is relatively little Nickel in the Lithium Ion batteries. The estimate is about 28kg in a 60kWh battery pack. So that's roughly 6% by weight.


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## reiderM (Dec 30, 2020)

A DC motor with 20kwh of EV batteries would get you the 60 miles you're looking for at a reasonable price. 

Or an AC motor if you'd like regenerative braking and are okay with spending a bit more. 

There is zero reason to use lead acid batteries for your project. I wouldn't even consider lead acids for any conversion looking for more than ~15 miles of range. Aftermarket lithium batteries are often not much more expensive than leads either. 

Plus the need for frequent replacement with leads as others have mentioned.


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## floydr (Jun 21, 2021)

JonEV2022 said:


> As for nickel, if most of the supply comes from a country we can't purchase materials from due to blockades and sanctions.


World production https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nickel#World_production
More than 2.5 million tonnes (t) of nickel per year are estimated to be mined worldwide, with Indonesia (760,000 t), the Philippines (320,000 t), Russia (280,000 t), New Caledonia (200,000 t), Australia (170,000 t) and Canada (150,000 t) being the largest producers as of 2020 Not even a third of world wide production in 2020.
later floyd


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## remy_martian (Feb 4, 2019)

"Titanium is a perfect example of this. During the Cold War, it was very expensive to buy in western nations. In the new cold war, it will be no different."

lol..during the cold war, the US bought titanium from...Russia. Despite sanctions, embargos, etc.

The rules only apply to us normal folk. The people that make middle and lower class children fight their wars steal what they want and don't follow rules.

The game in all this Ukraine idiocy is to lift the growth of Western suppliers in commodities and fossil fuels. Nothing else.

A rat will only go for your throat if it's cornered...


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## 57Chevy (Jan 31, 2020)

If you are building an EV based on geopolitics then buy a Leaf, the build cost will not change in any meaningful way from start to finish. An OEM looking to mitigate their risk profile of an independent state having absolute control over a vital part of the product- yes, single source supply is a very big part of engineering. As long as you can go to a different junkyard and buy parts from a different wreck then that doesn't apply. Even for buying new DIY EV parts, the price is always in some way pegged to second had parts of equal capability.

IMO, budget for 10k per year, for however many years your project takes. I took on a six year project and will spend about 100k because I suck at budgeting and numbers in general.


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## Kato659 (Aug 5, 2019)

The folks above are giving good advise. Lead acid batteries propelling a car will degrade many times faster than a Leaf battery will. Not to mention the weight which will seriously impede your performance and range.


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## Jordan325ic (Jun 8, 2021)

I want to second everyone that building a DIY EV is (nowadays) a very bad way to save money. Whatever you build will cost twice as much and be half as good as a used EV from an OEM. Plus it will takes months or years of work to bring to a usable state. And let me also second that there is absolutely no reason to consider lead acid for a road vehicle.

But back to your original question. First, consider a different donor... the geo metro was a boring 90s economy car, and an EV metro will be just as uninspiring. If you're going to go through the gigantic hassle of DIY you may as well end up with something cool. Consider a VW bug instead, they are probably the most commonly converted vehicle and therefore you can buy off-the-shelf parts to make the conversion easier. And if you give up halfway through there is a much better chance of finding a buyer for your abandoned project.

Second, for economical, long-life batteries there is always lifepo4 (or Lithium Iron). Not nearly as energy dense a Lithium-Ion batteries, but much, much better than lead-acid. Many Chinese OEMs (and Tesla's standard range model 3) use this chemistry for their EVs.


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## reiderM (Dec 30, 2020)

The only issue with lifepo4 is that they are often more expensive than used leaf cells or similar EV cells. Prismatic lifepo4 (calb and the like) are still rather expensive, as they're sold as new or like-new.


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## JonEV2022 (10 mo ago)

reiderM said:


> A DC motor with 20kwh of EV batteries would get you the 60 miles you're looking for at a reasonable price.
> 
> Or an AC motor if you'd like regenerative braking and are okay with spending a bit more.


Thank you. I'll consider the different battery chemistries too to achieve the desired range.


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## JonEV2022 (10 mo ago)

floydr said:


> World production Nickel - Wikipedia
> More than 2.5 million tonnes (t) of nickel per year are estimated to be mined worldwide, with Indonesia (760,000 t), the Philippines (320,000 t), Russia (280,000 t), New Caledonia (200,000 t), Australia (170,000 t) and Canada (150,000 t) being the largest producers as of 2020 Not even a third of world wide production in 2020.
> later floyd


OK, what I read was apparently media hysteria then. The only Nicads I could find being sold were AA's anyway.


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## JonEV2022 (10 mo ago)

"lol..during the cold war, the US bought titanium from...Russia. Despite sanctions, embargos, etc.

The rules only apply to us normal folk."

Good point. The elite was able to buy caviar and cuban cigars despite sanctions.


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

JonEV2022 said:


> I heard that an ac motor on an inverter can get faster acceleration. I heard Tesla uses an AC motor for this purpose.


Faster than what? Any type of motor can be built in any size, to produce any desired amount of power. All modern production EVs use AC motors, mostly to eliminate the brushes and commutator of a DC motor. Yes, that includes Tesla. They also all use lithium-ion batteries.


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

JonEV2022 said:


> Another reason I'm asking about lead acid is supply chains. Because most the world's nickel supply comes from Russia, the cost of NiCad and Ni Hydride and nickel containing lithium packs will go up. I'm considering lead because it may be cheaper and easier to acquire in the near future.





cricketo said:


> Nobody makes NiCad or NiMh for the industrial applications anymore btw.





JonEV2022 said:


> ... The only Nicads I could find being sold were AA's anyway.


NiMh cells are certainly still produced, and new non-plug-in Toyota hybrids still use them (even the 2022 Tundra hybrid with its 1.9 kWh battery); however, for a pure battery-electric vehicle they no longer make sense technically or economically.


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## JonEV2022 (10 mo ago)

cricketo said:


> Again, this is not a common knowledge, but there is relatively little Nickel in the Lithium Ion batteries. The estimate is about 28kg in a 60kWh battery pack. So that's roughly 6% by weight.


I think it will be fine actually. The wiki page that floydr posted on nickel production shows me batteries aren't going to get too impacted, especially if it's not that much Ni.


cricketo said:


> Pretty sure if you are in the position to kill a Lithium pack in 8 years, you'll be replacing Lead-Acids every 6 months. How many miles do you drive per year ?
> 
> Nobody makes NiCad or NiMh for the industrial applications anymore btw.


I drive about 13,300 miles in a year.


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## cricketo (Oct 4, 2018)

JonEV2022 said:


> I think it will be fine actually. The wiki page that floydr posted on nickel production shows me batteries aren't going to get too impacted, especially if it's not that much Ni.
> 
> I drive about 13,300 miles in a year.


So at 60mi per charge that would be a bit over 220 full cycles. Lead Acids are expected to take that many full cycles, but would already have a severe capacity loss - so indeed you'd be replacing them every 6-8 months.


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## lnstech (Nov 20, 2009)

JonEV2022 said:


> I'd like to convert a small car like a Geo metro or Geo tracker to run on lead acid. Im interested in using an AC motor. How many batteries would I expect to purchase to achieve the desired range if it even possible? I'm considering lead over lithium because of the cost. Sorry I'm not very knowledgeable. If someone can direct me to resources on estimating range, cost, acceleration, longevity, etc on different EV conversion configurations, I will be very greateful. Thank you.


Before EV's were commercially available, I built several EV's with lead-acid batteries John Warobiew's 1983 Volkswagen Rabbit GTI
I never got more than about 20 miles of range and it doesn't take to long to eventually deplete a lead-acid pack.


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## summetj (Mar 30, 2011)

JonEV2022 said:


> I'd like to convert a small car like a Geo metro or Geo tracker to run on lead acid.


I had a Chevy S-10 pickup truck conversion. It had 20 6v lead-acid golf cart batteries in it (4 up front, 16 under the bed). Fitting lead acid batteries in a geo would be much more difficult unless you were willing to give up the rear seat, and I doubt you could fit more than 12-14 in the motor/trunk area. I got 20-25 miles range (30 if I was willing to kill the batteries faster). I had to replace the batteries about every 2 years when the range dropped down to 10 miles. It's acceleration was slower than stock, but acceptable with a 120-144 volt DC FB1-4001A Motor.) 

I converted it to using the (48) modules from a 24 kWh Nissan Leaf pack and was getting 50+ mile range, and much better acceleration (more current from the batteries, and lighter batteries). The LiIon batteries lasted me about 6 years (and would have gone longer if a cheap BMS module hadn't shorted out and drained one cells worth, killing it mostly off.....). I STRONGLY recommend using salvage EV battery modules (LiIon) with a good BMS for ANY new conversion unless you work at a golf cart shop and get free golf cart batteries....


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## lordryck (Nov 29, 2008)

I 100% agree--forget lead-acid. 9 years ago I bought a 1999 Ford Ranger pickup that a friend of mine had converted. 144 volt DC with 1640 pounds of lead-acid batteries. It went about 40 minutes. It needed supplemental springs in the bed. Tightening connections and cleaning corrosion was a constant chore. He owned the truck for 3 years, commuting 22 miles (one-way) and charging at home and at work. When I bought the truck it was on its third set of batteries.

After owning it for 6 months I spend another 6 months re-converting it. I replaced the batteries with 365 pounds of CALB CA-100 LiFePo4 cells. I also ended replacing everything else except the motor, controller and vacuum pump. I still got 40 miles of range but now the truck can actually carry a load and it has good performance. I never commuted in it--I call it my Home Depot truck because it mostly goes back and forth between there and my house but 8 years on it still has around 35 miles of range on that same battery pack. I would like some more range so I'm considering doing a third conversion on it using salvaged Tesla cells or similar.

There really is no reason at all to consider lead.


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