# Leaf Batteries



## hbthink (Dec 21, 2010)

We have been testing our level 3 Chademo charger on a Leaf which has now many fast charge cycles. We have messed about a lot with the dual CAN interfaces, under-dash and on the Chademo connector. We believe we found the life indicator on the battery pack, which we qualified by checking it on a Nissan 3 plus tech tool. We found that our battery life was already down to 79% according to this figure after only 3600 miles and many dozens of fast charges. Not sure I'd believe anybody about the life of their batteries until many more miles and cycles go by for the Leaf. I'd bet that frequent fast charging is not going to improve the batteries lifetime and most likely does some damage to the batteries overall lifetime.

Steve


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## MN Driver (Sep 29, 2009)

It's a time will tell thing. After driving hybrids and having the experience and reading the experience of others with their battery life in comparison to the posts from, say, 2003 of expected battery life and what the manufacturers would do if the battery had trouble down the road, it turns out that most initial guesses were wrong. Especially ones about the cost going down as the years go by when it remained the same and with the battery improvements getting retrofitted into the current cars when any issues come about. Turns out those things weren't the case because if a 2001 Prius or 2000 Insight has battery problems, the manufacturer will replace the pack with the same decade old technology as they had when new.

I've learned to take promises from car manufacturers on batteries loosely and if capacity loss or failure modes aren't specified in the warranty, I would assume that your warranty isn't really worth that much because if Nissan and Honda both went with a failure counting as 1/10 capacity I'd be appalled. Since I haven't been able to find a Nissan document that says the capacity at which the warranty takes effect, I'd have to assume there could be a fair amount of loss before I could claim for a replacement. I wouldn't get a Leaf with anything over a 40 mile round trip commute but that's also to handle climate control, especially winter too.


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## Guest (Aug 9, 2011)

> “We are confident that [rapid] charging once a day will have no impact on the expected durability,” said a Nissan representative. “A single [rapid] charge plus a conventional charge per day would give enough to travel almost 200 miles a day, or 72,000 miles a year. The average motorist does less than 10,000 miles a year. An example from our telematics shows a privately-owned Leaf in Tokyo still has 100% charge capacity after 10,00 miles and 326 [rapid] charges."


This is from an article posted the other day about the leaf battery. I only have 2500 miles so of course I don't expect to see any degradation and I only slow charge right now. But with my testing with my cells knowing that they are not the same as in the Leaf but none the less hit hard at over 1.5 or 2.2 C discharging consistently and still the cells provide over 100AH capacity. I am not in the camp of these degrading as quickly as the claims.


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## Guest (Aug 9, 2011)

Nissan does have an 8 year warranty on the battery. So it must at least last that long and I highly suspect much longer even with heavy quick charging. I don't think they would want to have to honor the warranty on so many packs if they crap out too soon. If the claim below is true then all the batteries will be replaced under warranty. I don't buy these claims. 



> As for the claims from both Top Gear, The Times, and The Telegraph that rapid level 3 charging will kill a Leaf battery pack within three years, Nissan disagrees.


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## MN Driver (Sep 29, 2009)

What are the conditions of a battery replacement under warranty from Nissan? What level of capacity loss before it gets replaced?


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## Guest (Aug 9, 2011)

LITHIUM–ION BATTERY COVERAGE
The Lithium-Ion coverage period is 96 months or 100,000 miles, whichever comes first. This warranty covers any repairs needed to correct defects in materials or workmanship subject to the exclusions listed under the heading WHAT IS NOT COVERED This warranty period is 96 months or 100,000 miles, whichever comes first.
It goes on to explain ‘WHAT IS NOT COVERED’ a little later on in the booklet:
LITHIUM-ION BATTERY
This warranty does not cover damage or failures resulting from or caused by:
* Exposing a vehicle to ambient temperatures above120F (49C) for over 24 hours.
* Storing a vehicle in temperatures below -13F (-25C) for over seven days.
* Leaving your vehicle for over 14 days where the lithium-ion battery reaches a zero or near zero state of charge.
* Physically damaging the lithium-ion battery or intentionally attempting to reduce the life of the lithium-ion battery.
* Exposing the lithium-ion battery to contact with a direct flame.
* Charging the lithium-ion battery full on a daily basis despite the lithium-ion battery keeping a high state of charge level (98-100%).
* Immersing any portion of the lithium-ion battery in water or fluids.
* Opening the lithium-ion battery enclosure or having it serviced by someone other than a Nissan LEAF certified technician.
* Neglecting to follow correct charging procedures.
* Use of incompatible charging devices.
* Consequential damage caused by the failure to repair
an existing problem.
GRADUAL CAPACITY LOSS
The Lithium-ion battery (EV battery), like all lithium-ion batteries, will experience gradual capacity loss with time and use. Loss of battery capacity due to or resulting from gradual capacity loss is NOT covered under this warranty.


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## MN Driver (Sep 29, 2009)

So essentially you really don't have a battery warranty outside of individual cell failures. To me that isn't much of a warranty at all. If someone was at 50% capacity after 7 years of driving, they have a battery warranty that specifically excludes gradual capacity loss.

Meaning this statement below would be of zero concern for Nissan as they've disclosed that there is no warranty coverage for that situation.

"Nissan does have an 8 year warranty on the battery. So it must at least last that long and I highly suspect much longer even with heavy quick charging. I don't think they would want to have to honor the warranty on so many packs if they crap out too soon. If the claim below is true then all the batteries will be replaced under warranty. I don't buy these claims."

Basically Nissan doesn't want to replace them and they have written themselves out of it already. If quick charging causes no extra capacity loss then that is great but if it does, the consumer is stuck because the likely cost of replacement may push someone to either sell the car to someone who doesn't need that much capacity or junk/trade in the car for a new one.


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## Guest (Aug 9, 2011)

There is a limit to capacity losses. If it were at 50% in 7 years I am quite sure that it would qualify. Problem is that this article did not state a limit. My impression is that at end of life it should still have at least 80% remaining. Nissan is promoting fast charging and even plans for it and are currently doing it. Highly doubtful its planned to fail.


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## palmer_md (Jul 22, 2011)

gottdi said:


> There is a limit to capacity losses. If it were at 50% in 7 years I am quite sure that it would qualify. Problem is that this article did not state a limit. My impression is that at end of life it should still have at least 80% remaining. Nissan is promoting fast charging and even plans for it and are currently doing it. Highly doubtful its planned to fail.


Nissan has very cleverly written themselves a way out of the situation if the batteries do not hold up. If one car has an unusual capacity loss say the 50% loss in 7 years, Nissan would probably replace it as good will even though it is not specifically covered under warranty. If all the cars experience this loss, it would be devastating to them, so they have a way out by saying that capacity loss is normal, and so it is not covered. Defects and workmanship of the batteries are the only things specifically covered under warranty.

Nissan has stated that they expect the batteries to have at least 80% of the original capacity after 5 years. Not that they are warranting this, but this is what they expect. I would expect the same, and it is a gamble I was willing to take even if they are not warranting this. Love my Leaf.


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## Guest (Aug 9, 2011)

It is not specifically written out either!


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## hbthink (Dec 21, 2010)

The leaf is a great car no doubt, our company owns one and I love to get my hands on it anytime its available. It uses a Lithium Manganese chemistry cell as does the Volt. GM water cools the cells and only allows the batteries to be used to 1/2 their total operational range. Nissan relies on air cooled batteries and operates them to about their rated capacity. Where Nissan really diverges from the pack is by allowing and promoting the fast charge standard. To this day the only lithium battery chemistry able to withstand 4C and greater charge rates is Lithium Titanate which bankrupt Phoenix motor cars used. The cells cost to much to make them useful in traction packs but they can take considerable currents without damage to the cells. 

Not so with Lithium Manganese which when subjected to sustained 4C charge rates suffer mechanical and thermal breakdown of the battery. If I personally owned a Leaf I would baby my batteries by only charging at less than a 1C rate on a daily basis. Thats just me, I'm cheap and want my electric car costs to beat what I have to pay for a fueled vehicle. That only works if my pack cost less than $5000 and I get at least 10 years use out of it. The economics for the Leaf are probably much worse considering what it will probably cost much more cost to replace a 24Kwhr pack from a Nissan Dealership. Lets all hope that in the next 5 to 10 years all the lithium battery costs continue to fall and reach parity with what liquid fuels cost per mile and thanking all the early adapters of Leafs and Volts for helping to bring these batteries into mass production and hence lowering their costs.


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## spdas (Nov 28, 2009)

I can see Nissan giving a good warranty because they have tested and are confident in their BMS technology. For the DIY EV'er the Lithium cell manufacturer has no control on how the cells are charged, discharged or monitored. In my case where 5 of my cells went bad the first day out, Calb has basically said 'no "approved" BMS -no warranty'. 

Francis


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## Guest (Aug 10, 2011)

What BMS does CALB approve of installing? We have crappy warranties compared to Nissan's Warranty. What is all the hubbub about. I found that the cost of replacing the Nissan pack is more in the range of $16,000. Well for a nice package and BMS I can see that as being reasonable. And if the base price is like $32,000 for the Leaf then the base price for the same vehicle without the battery is like 16,000 and that compares well to any production vehicle. Go buy your $20,000 replica and dump in a 24kw pack and spend maybe $12,000 for the pack and you are now up to $32,000. Value for the Leaf exceeds that of the home conversion.


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## spdas (Nov 28, 2009)

No doubt the Leaf is a Steal @ $23,000 or so after rebates. Here is the controller Calb recommends: 

Our engineer suggest as following:
1, Please charge the 5cells in low current (10A) via monomer battery charger, maybe the 5cells can be repaired.
2, Does the voltage gauges have data storage function? If have, can you send the data of the voltage gauges to me?
3, Suggest: use BMS to prevent battery overcharge and overdischarge. The batteries will be safe. 

BMS recommend manufactorer:Anhui LIGOO New Energy Technology Co., Ltd. 
Website: http://www.ligoo.cn/

The user manual with photo was too large to upload. 
The email from Calb was a reply to my question of "what went wrong with my 5 calbs that went to 0.3 volts." I posed the same question here as I thought I balanced correctly and was looking for answers. (Sorry off topic)

francis


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## Guest (Aug 10, 2011)

I think we already know that you don't recover a lithium battery like you do a lead acid battery. Have you charged the cells up? I sent Jack Rickard a couple cells and one was below 1 volt for over 2 years. It charged up just fine and in fact held more than the rated 100AH's and it has held that charge. I looked at that system before. If recommended by them and if you install it correctly and they approve then you get the warranty you still only get a little warranty. Nothing like the Leaf. 

Pete


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## spdas (Nov 28, 2009)

4 of the 5 came back, but time will tell if they have shortened life cycles. The fifth one is dead @ 0.4v. There is a chance Calb MAY shoot me one free cell. But they really did not want to talk warranty at all since I did not have a BMS. 
Francis


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## spdas (Nov 28, 2009)

gottdi said:


> There is a limit to capacity losses. If it were at 50% in 7 years I am quite sure that it would qualify. Problem is that this article did not state a limit. My impression is that at end of life it should still have at least 80% remaining. Nissan is promoting fast charging and even plans for it and are currently doing it. Highly doubtful its planned to fail.


If I owned a Leaf, I would be copying and getting notorized any of their published claims of "over 70% or 80% battery life in 8 years" or whatever, as my insurance policy, if I ever had to claim on a defective battery pack.

francis


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## MN Driver (Sep 29, 2009)

spdas said:


> If I owned a Leaf, I would be copying and getting notorized any of their published claims of "over 70% or 80% battery life in 8 years" or whatever, as my insurance policy, if I ever had to claim on a defective battery pack.
> 
> francis


The claims have been more of a "we expect" sort of "usually we think that" type thing. I've seen the Nissan Leaf displays and read on the site of their claims and even got in deep discussions where people sent text messages back to managers who reached out to other people to answer questions about cold weather performance of the car, which isn't mentioned anywhere. ...at least until the cold weather package information was finalized and released. Without it the internal resistance of their pack diminishes performance and range at cold climate winter temperatures which is something until fairly recently they they've not said anything about(performance degradation). So now they've got the cold weather package to compensate for that. Not sure what temperature that performance loss would be noticed but the Nissan guy I spoke with had a hunch it was 'a little below freezing'.


gottdi said:


> What BMS does CALB approve of installing? We have crappy warranties compared to Nissan's Warranty. What is all the hubbub about. I found that the cost of replacing the Nissan pack is more in the range of $16,000. Well for a nice package and BMS I can see that as being reasonable. And if the base price is like $32,000 for the Leaf then the base price for the same vehicle without the battery is like 16,000 and that compares well to any production vehicle. Go buy your $20,000 replica and dump in a 24kw pack and spend maybe $12,000 for the pack and you are now up to $32,000. Value for the Leaf exceeds that of the home conversion.


We may have crappy warranties compared to Nissan but Nissan is the only source of the cells that are in the car. For us we choose who we get our batteries from and we don't necessarily need to replace with the same brand since there are multiple companies with similar enough characteristics of LiFePO4 to work a different cell into the pack if we really get stuck and need to. For Nissan if they decide the pack needs to be replaced 9 years down the line to get back range that the owner needs Nissan sets the price. For us we can find the seller with the most competitive product/price for a pack/cell replacement depending on the situation. A few cells is cheap for us and a whole pack is likely to be far less than what Nissan will mark theirs up to.
Nissan gets its battery far cheaper than they will let us think, they are buying these things as a volume purchase and selling with profit in mind. If they claim they aren't making money the only way they can do that is to claim that they are recovering development costs, which may be fair, but they aren't losing 'per car', there is just no way because I can't see how these components don't amount to the price they are charging. They would have to be paying less per kwh than we are, I couldn't see how they wouldn't be. They don't want us to know that though.
"Go buy your $20,000 replica and dump in a 24kw pack and spend maybe $12,000 for the pack and you are now up to $32,000. Value for the Leaf exceeds that of the home conversion."
I don't think so. A home conversion getting 100 miles with LiFePO4 can be done for less than $32k. We can't get a brand new body without buying the engine and all the other junk we don't need when converting to an electric and a replica is a premium priced product. If you take a used car with no issues to its body(rust, collision, paint issues, etc), its as good as anything new but just an older design. A decent body could be had for a lower price. There are more aerodynamic and lighter choices than the Leaf. Once my currently planned conversion is complete, I'm certain I won't be paying nearly what a Leaf would cost including my donor costs to complete the conversion and get better performance than it had with the gas engine and more range than the Leaf. In a body that can't rust out too. I'll also toss in that Jack has said that he would like to see one of these converted so he doesn't consider it to be electricjunk. Depending on funds I may unveil it at next years EVCCON but in reality it may be the year after. IMHO superior to a Leaf for less than the total cost including great performance, range, top speed, and a Soliton Jr, and possibly a Kostov 9" 220v but I haven't decided on a motor but a Warp9 is too long and the Impulse 9 is a too much of a compromise motor to me but I know one of those fits.

Keep in mind, a Leaf may be cheaper than a replica but it doesn't a sports car so I don't think you can compare. I'm not really seeing the point of having a new body unless someone really wants one, I just think if you've got the car you love and it isn't covered in rust it doesn't need to be a classic or a new car. It just needs to be decent and not the $500 trusty rusty with a bad engine, basically decent cosmetic condition and something that was chosen because it has suitable traits as an electric car. I know your definitions often come from Jack but he's never really defined what he think 'electric junk' really is but I think his definition is close to that. ..or at least something that could be represented to others without the look of 'so you took a heap and turned it into electric, "ok sure"' type of response.


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## spdas (Nov 28, 2009)

IMHO, Nissan has taken a great risk getting the Leaf out for sale. Track record of EV's, ie EV1 and marginal battery technology, world economy, etc. The Leaf is still a score. There will be better battery technogies for the Leaf in 4-5 years when naysayers claim batteries will die, and/or there will be aftermarket batteries for the Leaf. Hackers will also be adapting Calb, TS or other new battery companies to fit in the Leaf. Plus you have all the hi-tech components in the car, not including batteries. So buying a cheap Leaf with or without battery warranty is no risk at all. Like they say, "a no-brainer". But if the discussion is about Leaf vs home built, then both are the best. It depend on what you want. The mechanic will want a converted Fiero/Porsche and the regular guy will opt for the Leaf/other factory made ones. Both are viable. And we will not talk about those blogging in about how EV's are junk and they will never get "me" to drive anything smaller than a 454 chevy. But what do I know? I thought that bottled water was the stupidest thing when it came out. Times change.


Francis


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## Guest (Aug 11, 2011)

> I don't think so. A home conversion getting 100 miles with LiFePO4 can be done for less than $32k.


Not by much and not a nice creature comfort one like my Leaf. 



> Nissan gets its battery far cheaper than they will let us think,


Of course they do. So does any one else. I guarantee that those CALBS are far cheaper to produce that what you pay. So whats the difference. You think they should be sold for zero profit? I hope not. And I guarantee you that you do not want to mix brands of batteries. If you buy CALB then if you need a replacement you need another CALB. Not some off brand that happens to be cheaper. So your in the same boat. 



> I'm not really seeing the point of having a new body unless someone really wants one,


My first conversion was a 64 VW Ghia. I know from whence I come from. I could have easily dumped in $20K worth of parts and electric components and made a real nice VW Ghia EV but it would not be near as nice as the Leaf. Yes, it would be less than $32k. I did the MG too. Got it to 35 miles with lithium but it was still nothing like those replica EVs that have a total of over $50k worth of parts and work invested in them. Bare bones basic and still $50K. They are no longer new either. But the cost is still there if you want to do a decent conversion. Many, including mine are just electric junk. They work but are not put together like you'd find if it had been from the factory. It is a hack and that is all they will be. I want invest in my VW Bus Electric conversion but I also want it to be done with quality and care. With some integrity. With some loving care. Many are just hacked together and look that way. I know exactly what an electric piece of junk looks like. I had one. Slapped together to see if I could do that. Anyone one can. But to make it look like it should be that way is a much harder and more expensive proposition. The world will not look to adopt electric if most of what they see is just GARBAGE. That is the point of making a distinction of quality and junk. Jack and many others have built quality but it comes at a cost. 

My Leaf is in the realm of quality and value. 

Pete


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## Guest (Aug 11, 2011)

spdas said:


> If I owned a Leaf, I would be copying and getting notorized any of their published claims of "over 70% or 80% battery life in 8 years" or whatever, as my insurance policy, if I ever had to claim on a defective battery pack.
> 
> francis


Not a bad idea but it would only stand if the folks putting out the information were official Nissan Personal involved in the Leaf project. I highly suspect that what is being presented on the web is no different than those who like to type themselves smart. Bad press abounds. Good press hardly ever gets noticed but then again every day folks expect to see the negative and thrive there.


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## spdas (Nov 28, 2009)

Or just wait for some Nissan official do a news release on CNN or wherever quoting 80%. 

And 50% of a persons time gets an EV 95% done or functional. The other 5% which is making it look nice and "factory" takes the other 50% of your time.


Francis


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## palmer_md (Jul 22, 2011)

I don't think it matters what somebody says on TV, or even quoted in the paper or on the internet. If you don't have it in writing, you don't have it. If you have a concern about the battery, lease the car. I have no worries, so I purchased. Time will tell if I made the right choice.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

MN Driver said:


> So now they've got the cold weather package to compensate for that. Not sure what temperature that performance loss would be noticed but the Nissan guy I spoke with had a hunch it was 'a little below freezing'.


From what I've read the Nissan "cold weather" package is pretty limited. It's only purpose is to come on when the pack reaches -20C and keep the pack above that temperature. Below that temperature the car will not run. You can't preheat the pack while charging at all, which would have actually been useful at extending range in the cold. I think Nissan dropped the ball on this one. I also see an after market for a "battery blanket", TM, that attaches to the bottom of the vehicle and allows you to preheat the pack.


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## MN Driver (Sep 29, 2009)

Thanks JRP3


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