# Volt: The Car Conservatives Can't Kill



## EVDL Archive (Jul 26, 2007)

Former U.S. President George H.W. Bush buys his son a Chevy Volt as a birthday present.

More...


----------



## PhantomPholly (Aug 20, 2008)

"Billionaire Oil Magnate buys overpriced electric toy car for son....."

The Volt will be a good car when it has a range of over 100 miles without gasoline and costs under $25k. Like everything else, it will be obvious in time and equally obvious that the early adopters paid too much for a status symbol.


----------



## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

When compared to other vehicles of similar cost, the only logical comparison, the Volt will save the owner money. There is a false assumption that people pay a lot more for an EV or hybrid than they normally intend to spend. They may spend a few thousand more, just as they may spend a few thousand more for options on any vehicle, but very few people shopping for a $20K car suddenly find another $10-$20K to spend. People shop within a price range, if a specific vehicle has features they find valuable in that price range, say for instance driving without using gasoline, or very little, then they buy it.


----------



## PhantomPholly (Aug 20, 2008)

JRP3 said:


> When compared to other vehicles of similar cost, the only logical comparison, the Volt will save the owner money.


Link please to supporting article / evidence for that? 

The numbers I have seen paint an entirely different picture, starting with the fact that it takes someone else's money (taxes) to even get the price down to even where it is today, which is still too high.

I get that there is some point where a bit of a premium for the batteries provides a payback over the long haul - but today that payback period is well over 5 years (if ever). Businesses will not make an investment unless the payback is 6 months to 24 months unless it is an EXTREMELY strategic move. People are no different.

When the real difference in price is under $5k (about 2-3 years' worth of gas) between a true electric (where the real cost savings is) and a gas or hybrid model (both of which suffer all of the same additional overhead costs for an ICE engine), then the public will buy electric in droves.


----------



## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

As I clearly explained when you compare it to vehicles of similar cost it will be cheaper over time. No links needed, just basic math. Pick another car the same price as the Volt, with or without the rebate, I don't care, and then compare the cost of gas vs the cost of electricity. It's a simple equation. Think of it this way, does the person looking at a $25K Camry suddenly buy a $35K Lexus? Not usually. And if so what's the payback time on buying the Lexus instead? There is none. 
There seems to be this bizarre idea that EV's need to be the same price as the cheapest vehicles available, even though they offer a better driving experience and lower operating costs. EV's should cost more, they are better.


----------



## PhantomPholly (Aug 20, 2008)

JRP3 said:


> As I clearly explained when you compare it to vehicles of similar cost it will be cheaper over time. No links needed, just basic math. Pick another car the same price as the Volt, with or without the rebate, I don't care, and then compare the cost of gas vs the cost of electricity. It's a simple equation. Think of it this way, does the person looking at a $25K Camry suddenly buy a $35K Lexus? Not usually. And if so what's the payback time on buying the Lexus instead? There is none.
> There seems to be this bizarre idea that EV's need to be the same price as the cheapest vehicles available, even though they offer a better driving experience and lower operating costs. EV's should cost more, they are better.


You are fudging the outcome by saying, "pick another car the same price."

When you compare a vehicle of the same basic level of quality and features, you come up with a $15-20k vehicle to compare with a $25k Volt (or, really, a $40k Volt). The number of years to break-even, if it happens at all and presuming you don't have a battery pack go bad, is simply too high.

I'm not dissing you, and the equation will change (did you see the chart I put up a few days about the price vs. capability of batteries?). 

It's just not there yet to make the Volt a good economic choice. If it were (and people aren't as fooled by politics when it comes time to plunk down cash for a car), people would be lined up to buy them.


----------



## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

PhantomPholly said:


> When you compare a vehicle of the same basic level of quality and features, you come up with a $15-20k vehicle to compare with a $25k Volt (or, really, a $40k Volt).


According to who, and by what criteria? I'm sorry but most people who have actually driven a Volt feel it's much nicer than a $15-$20K vehicle. It also has a very desirable feature that most cars do not, smooth, quiet, petroleum-free driving. People can option out various ICE's with $10-$20K of crap that they think is desirable but it's still basically the same car and none of those options provide reduced operating costs. Why do people pay so much more for a Corvette over a Miata? They are both 2 seat sports cars that get you from point A to B in a sporty manner. What's the payback for getting the Corvette?
If a person is going to spend $35-$45K for a car the Volt is the most cost effective choice in that range over time. 150K miles of driving in a 30 mpg car at $4 per gallon is $20,000.


----------



## PhantomPholly (Aug 20, 2008)

> 150K miles of driving in a 30 mpg car at $4 per gallon is $20,000.


Yes - and that's a 10 year payback - assuming gas prices don't go DOWN because EVERYONE ELSE buys an electric car. Most people still aren't interested - if they were, they'd be lined up.


----------



## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

PhantomPholly said:


> Yes - and that's a 10 year payback -


No, it's instantaneous compared to other vehicles in the same price range. You keep missing the basic point, people buy vehicles in a certain price range. They don't say "I only have $20K to spend on a car, oh wait, I think I'll spend $40K instead which I just pulled out of thin air". People who are clever enough to do a little bit of math might stretch for another $5-$10K and realize they will come out ahead. Plus they get the satisfaction of not going to a gas station and driving a smooth, quiet, vehicle with a lot of torque. Some people value those features. You obviously don't see the benefits if EV driving, fine, many people do. I don't see much value in a smart phone, so I won't pay for one, but obviously many people do.


----------



## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

JRP3 and Gottdi make a good point about cars and price points

The mini (the real one) made very little money at first because it was sold as a "cheap" car
it only began to make good money when it was sold as a specialist car

A basic car has about the same cost as it's fully loaded brother - but it has a much lower price and hence margin

The volt is a medium expensive car - and it behaves like one


----------



## Jason Lattimer (Dec 27, 2008)

I don't think the Volt should be compared to the Cruze. The Volt has standard features that only other 40 thousand dollar cars have. It has many more standard features than the Cruze. Just scroll down to interior features. 

BTW, the cars do not feel like they are in the same class either.

http://http://cars.findthebest.com/compare/2-34/2011-Chevrolet-Volt-vs-2011-Chevrolet-Cruze-LS


----------



## PhantomPholly (Aug 20, 2008)

Well we can all have opinions on this. My point has been simple - those of you who believe this car is "worth the price" are in the overwhelming majority as evidenced by the lack of Volt purchases.

The free market is the greatest Democracy ever devised. Everyone gets to vote, many times, with their coins. Your opinion, my opinion all contribute to the outcome - but so minimally as to have no measurable effect at all.


----------



## Jon (Jun 18, 2008)

PhantomPholly said:


> - those of you who believe this car is "worth the price" are in the overwhelming majority as evidenced by the lack of Volt purchases.
> 
> Volt sales are picking up despite of the attempts by FOX to kill it. You're gonna eat those words!


----------



## Jason Lattimer (Dec 27, 2008)

If the Volt had been branded as a Cadillac, we would not be having this discussion. The Volt is a much nicer car than the Cruze.


----------



## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Jason Lattimer said:


> If the Volt had been branded as a Cadillac, we would not be having this discussion. The Volt is a much nicer car than the Cruze.


http://ephase.blogspot.com/2012/03/where-gm-went-wrong-with-volt.html


----------



## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

PhantomPholly said:


> Well we can all have opinions on this..


It's not really an opinion but more of a market reality that people will only buy a vehicle in their price range, and will only compare vehicles in that price range. If you don't think a Volt is worth $40K that's fine, I don't think a Lexus is worth $40K either, but some people do. Of those two choices only the Volt will pay back thousands in operating costs.


----------

