# Future Netgain offerings..



## EVComponents (Apr 20, 2009)

This got me to email Netgain to inquire about the details. I went ahead and ordered a WarP 11 "HV" to play with. 



> The WarP 11 HV as we know it internally is a high-voltage variation of an 11" motor. It has interpoles and should be able to handle 288 Volts in neutral timing, 336 in advanced. It is designed to hit 9000 RPMs.
> 
> The comm is a 57 bar mated to a 9" armature stack. This also allows for the high RPM and related HP (expected to be ~4 times a standard 11"). The 9" stack is also required due to the "height" of the field poles and interpoles.
> 
> ...


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## Bowser330 (Jun 15, 2008)

EVComponents said:


> This got me to email Netgain to inquire about the details. I went ahead and ordered a WarP 11 "HV" to play with.


(1) How much are we talking here? $$?

(2) "4x HP of standard 11 inch"...what is the peak HP of a standard 11"?

(3) 9000rpm!

Thanks for the info!


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## ftaffy (Mar 13, 2009)

Holy... . Sounds good. i may be about to chop my transmission tunnel out to make one of these fit! lol.

Good to see advances being made, controler sounds good too.

Will be hanging out to see more.


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## CroDriver (Jan 8, 2009)

288 kW 

If this is true, a dual motor could handle 570kW  

With some forced cooling probably even more

Hmm, hope that is not just a rumor


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## EVComponents (Apr 20, 2009)

ftaffy said:


> Holy... . Sounds good. i may be about to chop my transmission tunnel out to make one of these fit! lol.
> 
> Good to see advances being made, controler sounds good too.
> 
> Will be hanging out to see more.


Maybe try one of these controllers with the new WarP 11 HV motor.

(Zilla2K - HV)
http://www.evcomponents.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=Z2K%2DHV


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## EVComponents (Apr 20, 2009)

CroDriver said:


> 288 kW
> 
> If this is true, a dual motor could handle 570kW


I will let you know. We are already on it.


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## DavidDymaxion (Dec 1, 2008)

I wonder if the motor might be a modified Kostov?


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## esoneson (Sep 1, 2008)

Any other new motors besides the 11"?
9" and 9K RPM would be nice......

Eric


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## Bowser330 (Jun 15, 2008)

EVComponents said:


> I will let you know. We are already on it.


When will the Warp-11HV motor be on your website?

Any Warp-13-HVs coming out?


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## Guest (Aug 29, 2009)

DavidDymaxion said:


> I wonder if the motor might be a modified Kostov?


Why would it be a modified Kostov? They make them for Netgain at the Warfield Electric Company in Frankfurt Illinois.... 

This is a Netgain designed modification to the 11 inch motor that Warfield actually manufactures. Warfield has always made the Netgain motors.

And yes, 288 volts, with 2000 amps from a Z2K would theoretically be 576 kW or 772 hp.

This represents a relatively huge leap in available power for conversions, and in fact I'm not quite sure what it means.

As Torque is a function of (kW * 9549)/rpm, a 288 kW power plant should deliver 1375 ft-lbs of torque at 2000 rpm. A Z2K, for whatever period you did achieve 2000 amps, would then produce 2750 ft lbs of torque, and we've just outrun the ability of any drive train I'm familiar with, short of the drive shaft on the USS Midway, to handle. We will soon be able to snap any drive shaft we connect to - instantly.

It's exciting alright. If my math does not bely me, it will reduce the drive train issue to how much power your batteries can deliver, and your transmission or differential can convert to motion without destruction.

So yes, I want two of them bolted together. Overkill is always appropriate in polite company...

Jack Rickard
http://evtv.me


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## EVComponents (Apr 20, 2009)

Bowser330 said:


> When will the Warp-11HV motor be on your website?


We take delivery of a few of them in October hopefully. Since this is so new, we are not going to sell quite yet until we know more. 
We want to check them out. 
I am also having Jim Husted look into upgrades for 2 of them.




Bowser330 said:


> Any Warp-13-HVs coming out?


They are not even making the other variants of the Warp11 HV yet. They are just doing this initial version to see how demand is.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

How the #3!! did I miss this thread!  EV racing technology is just exploding all of a sudden! Awesome!


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## CroDriver (Jan 8, 2009)

toddshotrods said:


> How the #3!! did I miss this thread!  EV racing technology is just exploding all of a sudden! Awesome!


Now we have great controllers, the motors are in the pipeline... All we need now are some high current batteries that are bigger and cheaper than A123 cells


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## EVComponents (Apr 20, 2009)

CroDriver said:


> Now we have great controllers, the motors are in the pipeline... All we need now are some high current batteries that are bigger and cheaper than A123 cells


Stay tuned on the battery front. We have something in the works to make those high performance batteries affordable and available to the EV conversion community.


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## Bowser330 (Jun 15, 2008)

EVComponents said:


> Stay tuned on the battery front. We have something in the works to make those high performance batteries affordable and available to the EV conversion community.



This is great news!

High Performance Controllers!

High Performance Motors!

High Performance Batteries!


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## Bowser330 (Jun 15, 2008)

jrickard said:


> Why would it be a modified Kostov? They make them for Netgain at the Warfield Electric Company in Frankfurt Illinois....
> 
> This is a Netgain designed modification to the 11 inch motor that Warfield actually manufactures. Warfield has always made the Netgain motors.
> 
> ...


From what I gather, low-end torque is not something to worry about with electric motors...Its the "high-end" torque...

Jack you mentioned before that your 120V e-porsche can pull 540A (3C from your 180AH batteries) at freeway speeds of a bit over 4000rpm...

Which leads me to wanting maximum power curves...based on different HIGH-END voltages, not some wimpy 72V....

For example:

The new Netgain Warp-11HV
What are the maximum amps it can tolerate at each rpm?

Example:
*336V*
1000rpm = 2000A
2000rpm = 1000A
......
......
8000rpm = 600A
9000rpm = 500A (stated "redline")


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

CroDriver said:


> Now we have great controllers, the motors are in the pipeline... All we need now are some high current batteries that are bigger and cheaper than A123 cells


I understand the concerns of the average DIYer but I am more interested in power density and discharge rate. If they're bigger and cheaper but won't let me suck as much juice out, as quickly, I would still want the A123s.


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## CroDriver (Jan 8, 2009)

toddshotrods said:


> I understand the concerns of the average DIYer but I am more interested in power density and discharge rate. If they're bigger and cheaper but won't let me suck as much juice out, as quickly, I would still want the A123s.


Same for me but it's not simple to make a battery pack out of thousands of cells. It would be much simpler if they would make some 20/40/60/100Ah cells with 50C continuous discharge so we could just connect them to series till we get the voltage we need.


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## DavidDymaxion (Dec 1, 2008)

The better question might be why not?  It seems like it would be easier to modify an existing 11 inch motor that has interpoles, than to add interpoles to a motor that lacks them. I was just curious if anyone knew what the base motor was, or if they are making one from scratch.

If those rpm limits hold that would be truly awesome.


jrickard said:


> Why would it be a modified Kostov? They make them for Netgain at the Warfield Electric Company in Frankfurt Illinois....
> 
> This is a Netgain designed modification to the 11 inch motor that Warfield actually manufactures. Warfield has always made the Netgain motors.
> 
> ...


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## Guest (Aug 30, 2009)

DavidDymaxion said:


> The better question might be why not?  It seems like it would be easier to modify an existing 11 inch motor that has interpoles, than to add interpoles to a motor that lacks them. I was just curious if anyone knew what the base motor was, or if they are making one from scratch.
> 
> .


Well Netgain, to my knowledge, doesn't precisely manufacture motors. They have designed a series of mods to more or less standard Warfield motors that offer some advantages for EV applications. They have a relationship with Warfield of course, who manufactures motors for them. It appears to be a long running relationship. And it would be unlikely they would go with another supplier because the wiring was simpler. I think they've kind of designed this thing and taken it to Warfield and by now they have a number of years together and substantial unit sales and a good working relationship. 

I have no knowledge of the inner workings of Netgain or Warfield, but it sounds like a pretty good guess.

Jack Rickard


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

I thought Warfield made the motors and Netgain just distributed them.


> NetGain Motors, Inc. is the exclusive worldwide distributor of *WarP*™, *ImPulse*™, and *TransWarP*™ electric motors for use in electric vehicles and electric vehicle conversions. These powerful electric motors may also be used in the conversion of conventional internal combustion engine vehicles to hybrid gas/electric or electric assist vehicles. Our motors are manufactured in Frankfort, Illinois by Warfield Electric Motor Company


http://www.go-ev.com/ngt.html


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## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

My understanding is that jrickard's understanding is correct. NetGain specified customizations for standard Warfield forklift motors to make them better suited to use in EVs.

When Rebirth Auto orders motors from NetGain they are drop shipped from Warfield Electric. The exception seems to be for scratch-n-dent motors, like the two TransWarP 9's we bought for our dyno, which ship from NetGain directly.


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## Guest (Aug 31, 2009)

In my unqualified opinion, I would say at this point Netgain is pretty much designing motors - albeit with Warfield. I think it started as minor customizations but over the years has kind of grown beyond that. It looks like a pretty good matchup, and I would look askance if they suddenly began experimenting with a bunch of different suppliers ala Kostov.

Motors are quite simple. Just ask anybody with a lot of ideas how to improve them. Unfortunately, for those who do know something about them (not me actually) the devil is in the details. It's pretty easy to build one. It's pretty hard to build one well. And it's very difficult to build one that will do what we expect it to and last any time at all.

To me it looks like the ultimate Rubicks cube. Whatever you change, changes 9 other things you didn't want to change, and its a mind numbing exercise in the classic tradeoff scenario.

Jack Rickard
http://evtv.me


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## caspar21 (Apr 8, 2009)

someone please post some hard performance graphs..
before i have a coronary.


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## 280z1975 (Oct 2, 2008)

caspar21 said:


> someone please post some hard performance graphs..
> before i have a coronary.


I second this (but also don't think there are any) ... 

(the following is only speculation) ... but I think it might be a case of someone re-posting info that wasn't meant to get out into the public domain as fast as it has, which is why there is little to no info on the 11" HV ... but I do know EV Components has 5 on order (of an initial run of 25) with delivery in October. So we will know more after that I am sure.

If Netgain can do an 11" HV (with a 9" HV to follow?) we could see a DC motor that can compete with the power of most AC's (which we can't buy).

From my personal stance I would like a high RPM motor which I can use for direct drive so that I can eliminate the transmission on my car (further saving weight, about 125 lbs, the same as many DC motors) ... at the worst I would have a 2 speed powerglide in the car. 

With the Zilla back (and the new Solition1 now out there) we have controllers to handle high volt, high rpm DC motors, now we just need the motors. Toss in a Litium pack and you can now make almost any car out there an EV which is BETTER performing than the original and all for less cost than most new cars (and half the cost of a Volt) ... exciting times people ... these are game changing times.

I personally want to know what kind of cost we could drive the DC motors, LIFEPO4 batts and controllers down to if it was on the 50,000 unit scale. Toss in a good 4 seater shell car and BAM a 100+ mile all-electric car that could be ready NOW, all for under 20k for sure. 

-Gregg-


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## EVComponents (Apr 20, 2009)

280z1975 said:


> If Netgain can do an 11" HV (with a 9" HV to follow?)


There will not be a 9" HV. They say it will only fit in the Warp 11 case. It will be an identical fit for the current Warp 11.


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## Bowser330 (Jun 15, 2008)

280z1975 said:


> I second this (but also don't think there are any) ...
> 
> (the following is only speculation) ... but I think it might be a case of someone re-posting info that wasn't meant to get out into the public domain as fast as it has, which is why there is little to no info on the 11" HV ... but I do know EV Components has 5 on order (of an initial run of 25) with delivery in October. So we will know more after that I am sure.
> 
> ...


+1 I can't wait to see what's next


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## Bowser330 (Jun 15, 2008)

EVComponents said:


> Stay tuned on the battery front. We have something in the works to make those high performance batteries affordable and available to the EV conversion community.


 
Any news/progress update on these more affordable batteries?


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## bblocher (Jul 30, 2008)

EVComponents said:


> There will not be a 9" HV. They say it will only fit in the Warp 11 case. It will be an identical fit for the current Warp 11.


The good news is the Warp11 mounting pattern matches the Warp9 and ADC 9" motors, so, room permitting it could be an easy upgrade for some. Now I need a new controller and a new motor. Of course, then I need new batteries too, more smaller ones to get that voltage. Shhhhhhh, don't tell my wife I'm planning any of this!


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## EVComponents (Apr 20, 2009)

Bowser330 said:


> Any news/progress update on these more affordable batteries?


Still talking to a few new players. We are getting testing cells before we offer them on our website. 

We are contacted on a regular basis by battery and other EV part manufacturers that want to be listed on www.evcomponents.com . But we are only interested in selling those items that will improve the overall EV conversion community. We are not interested in some of these cheap batteries.


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## Bowser330 (Jun 15, 2008)

EVComponents said:


> Still talking to a few new players. We are getting testing cells before we offer them on our website.
> 
> We are contacted on a regular basis by battery and other EV part manufacturers that want to be listed on www.evcomponents.com . But we are only interested in selling those items that will improve the overall EV conversion community. We are not interested in some of these cheap batteries.


 
Good to know! Thank you..

Quality $/kw seems to be the major issue not only in our community but the EV World...from DIY to Global Automaker..


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## EVComponents (Apr 20, 2009)

We have enough info from Netgain to provide the Warp 11 "HV" as part of a package.

We don't have firm enough pricing to be able to say the price as a stand alone item. We were given a range that Netgain thinks the new High Voltage version will be at $3,500.

The first production run is for October.

So we are including it as part of a package. Then if the cost to us is different, we can absorb the difference.

*For example the following is a sample package:* 

Netgain Warp 11 "HV" Motor 
Zilla Z1K-HV (300 volts nominal)
Hairball Option A and P
Hepa Pedal Assembly 
Manzanita Micro - PFC20 Charger
Elithion BMS 94 cells
Ultra-Quiet Complete Vacuum Assist Kit
94 ThunderSky 100 Ah cells

We are open to other suggestions that might be of interest to people that are looking to put together a package that makes sense. Please let us know.

http://www.evcomponents.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=PackageZilla


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## 280z1975 (Oct 2, 2008)

EVComponents said:


> We have enough info from Netgain to provide the Warp 11 "HV" as part of a package.
> 
> We don't have firm enough pricing to be able to say the price as a stand alone item. We were given a range that Netgain thinks the new High Voltage version will be at $3,500.
> 
> The first production run is for October. ... snip


While I am quite happy to see the price range of the 11 HV come in at the 3.5k range, would it be possiable to get a performance range out of the motor. I know you can't say for sure, but being able to compare it to the other Netgain motors (9" and 11" LV) would be nice.

I know you guys were talking 4X HP than the 11" LV before. Does this still hold true?

-Gregg-


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## EVComponents (Apr 20, 2009)

Netgain will be providing that info soon. I will provide it as soon as they give me the approval to release. 

I reserved only 5 of the "HV" motors from Netgain. The rest of the initial production is already soldout by Netgain. So there is a limited supply of these initial production motors. I am likely going to keep 2 of them for myself. So we have 3 available in October.


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## caspar21 (Apr 8, 2009)

i assume that more production runs are planed as this run has sold out already.
when is the next run coming off the line?

i really don't think 3 motors are going to last long..


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## EVComponents (Apr 20, 2009)

caspar21 said:


> i assume that more production runs are planed as this run has sold out already.
> when is the next run coming off the line?
> 
> i really don't think 3 motors are going to last long..


I think you are right. But I don't know when the next production run is. This is likely a low volume motor. They make their real volume in the Warp 9 motor at half the cost.


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## 280z1975 (Oct 2, 2008)

With a price range about the same as the LV version of the 11" ... why would one want the LV over the HV ... around 300 to 500 USD wouldn't make me go for the LV ... but the price difference between the 9" and the 11" HV would.

-Gregg-


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

There are other added expenses to running the HV motor, charger, BMS, controller, so it's not just the extra $600 for the motor.


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## Bowser330 (Jun 15, 2008)

JRP3 said:


> There are other added expenses to running the HV motor, charger, BMS, controller, so it's not just the extra $600 for the motor.


what about the extra batteries for HV?


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## caspar21 (Apr 8, 2009)

JRP3 said:


> There are other added expenses to running the HV motor, charger, BMS, controller, so it's not just the extra $600 for the motor.


i disagree.. the bms and charger are the same as if you ran a LV motor.
only the controller is a little more.(price wise)

and extra batteries are not nessesarily more expensive for the hv over the lv.. with low voltage the current lvl is higher so you need more capacity. with high voltage the current draw is less. so smaller batteries for same distance.


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## Bowser330 (Jun 15, 2008)

caspar21 said:


> i disagree.. the bms and charger are the same as if you ran a LV motor.
> only the controller is a little more.(price wise)
> 
> and extra batteries are not nessesarily more expensive for the hv over the lv.. with low voltage the current lvl is higher so you need more capacity. with high voltage the current draw is less. so smaller batteries for same distance.


"not necessarily" is right...because to use motor for performance means you will need to draw high amps...but lower AH batteries have lower max C ratings...So lifepo4 (safe) max of 5C with a 100AH battery will be what?. 500A battery amps max??  Im going to buy a 3500$ performance motor so that my max battery amps are 500?

Now if you are talking about A123 cells then I agree, because of their high 20-30C safe max, you can create a lower pack AH and still be able to draw enough for for 1000A bursts...but at a cost thats very prohibitive to even the higher-end DIY'er....


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

caspar21 said:


> i disagree.. the bms and charger are the same as if you ran a LV motor.
> only the controller is a little more.(price wise)


Not true, the more cells the more complex your BMS has to be and that means more expensive. As for the charger with a lower voltage system you don't have to buy a high voltage charger so it can be a lot cheaper.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Bowser330 said:


> .because to use motor for performance means you will need to draw high amps...but lower AH batteries have lower max C ratings...So lifepo4 (safe) max of 5C with a 100AH battery will be what?. 500A battery amps max??  Im going to buy a 3500$ performance motor so that my max battery amps are 500?


That is one of the potential benefits of high voltage, you don't have to draw high amps to get performance. 500 amps at 300 volts will give you plenty of performance. Tesla gets plenty of performance without getting near 1000 amps.


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## 280z1975 (Oct 2, 2008)

JRP3 said:


> That is one of the potential benefits of high voltage, you don't have to draw high amps to get performance. 500 amps at 300 volts will give you plenty of performance. Tesla gets plenty of performance without getting near 1000 amps.


JRP3 is right ... what you need to look at is power (KW) and if you go with 300V and 500A you get 150KW ... a decent amount of power.

For a standard 144V system you would need 1041A to get the same power of 150KW. Which past the normal limit of both the ZILLA 1K and the Solition. Most people who use 144V go with 160AH to 180AH batteries which means a MAX draw of 800 to 900A from the batteries. If I remeber from the Solition biuld thread when we ran the 9" at 1000A it lasted not so long (~10 seconds) before blowing up. Something tells me you could run the 11" HV at 500A much longer before it ran into problems (one of the benefits of running less amps through the motor, less current draw).

Like I said ... it's a bit of a debate which way to go ...


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## caspar21 (Apr 8, 2009)

280z1975 said:


> JRP3 is right ... what you need to look at is power (KW) and if you go with 300V and 500A you get 150KW ... a decent amount of power.
> 
> ..
> Like I said ... it's a bit of a debate which way to go ...


well said, lol

i still like the benefits of hi voltage over low voltage.
less losses in the battery cables at hi voltage.
less heat generated in the cables because less current at the same output levels.(means you can use cheaper cable)
higher top speeds without having to resort to gear changes.
current modern controllers can regulate voltage as well as current to allow for the same bottom end power without limiting top end.
smaller cells allow for less total space taken for batteries due to being able to put the many small cells into a configuration that fewer large cells would not fit.(eg: fit a few cells in the doors, fenders etc.)

there are down sides.
the controller is more expensive for high voltage.
people are scared of high voltage as it is easier to electrocute yourself if you "lick the terminals to see if it is dead"
yeah, more BMS moduals for more cells does increase the BMS costs.(oops)
umm.. i know there are more down sides. i cannot think of any right now.


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## 280z1975 (Oct 2, 2008)

caspar21 said:


> ...people are scared of high voltage as it is easier to electrocute yourself if you "lick the terminals to see if it is dead"...


96V, 144v or 300V ... all of which will kill you ... so in my opinion a mute point ... it's electricity and it will hurt you if you don't respect it. I forget the exact amount of Amps it takes to stop your heart, but it's quite small.

-Gregg-


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

caspar21 said:


> smaller cells allow for less total space taken for batteries due to being able to put the many small cells into a configuration that fewer large cells would not fit.(eg: fit a few cells in the doors, fenders etc.)


In some cases yes but it's still a good idea to keep all the cells bunched together as much as possible. Different length cable runs and different heating and cooling of individual cells will give different resistance and might lead to balance problems. Also the cells need to be strapped to prevent swelling, at least prismatics, and its easier to strap a bunch of cells than individual ones. Lastly your pack should be well protected in case of an accident, not sitting just inside of a sheet metal fender or door.


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## Bowser330 (Jun 15, 2008)

JRP3 said:


> That is one of the potential benefits of high voltage, you don't have to draw high amps to get performance. 500 amps at 300 volts will give you plenty of performance. Tesla gets plenty of performance without getting near 1000 amps.


Tesla has a real peak hp of *185kw...that's performance*

300V * 500A = 150kw, but you aren't including voltage sag...

Pulling 5C from 100AH batteries will definately resort in voltage sag..

I am guessing to about 2.8V (vs 3.2) which is only 12.5%...

This would make the 300V into 263V * 500A = *132kw vs 185kw*

If the cells sag more, lets say 20%, thats 2.56V = 241V * 500A = 121kw

Referenace point: The white zombie was using a Zilla 1K and an 11" Built Kostov and the drag strip and @ 6000rpm was pulling 620A but his pack had sagged to 250V (from 336V) 26% sag...(AGM batteries used)

"Plenty of Performance" is relative......


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## 280z1975 (Oct 2, 2008)

Bowser330 said:


> Tesla has a real peak hp of *185kw...that's performance*
> 
> 300V * 500A = 150kw, but you aren't including voltage sag...
> 
> ...


I think 132kw would be AWESOME for almost every car less a dragster ... but all these calculations hinge on the 5C calculation ... I think this number is going to change in the next year as batteries improve ... if you even can see an improvement to 7C you would get 700A(*263V) it's going to be 187KW ... that's Tesla performance my friends.


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## Bowser330 (Jun 15, 2008)

280z1975 said:


> I think 132kw would be AWESOME for almost every car less a dragster ... but all these calculations hinge on the 5C calculation ... I think this number is going to change in the next year as batteries improve ... if you even can see an improvement to 7C you would get 700A(*263V) it's going to be 187KW ... that's Tesla performance my friends.


I agree, it all hinges on the "surge capacity" of the batteries...as long as the surge can be held for 10-20 seconds...and can be extracted safely without any permanent damage..

Also in my previous post I mentioned 5C for a 100AH cell but I guess you could get 150AH cells and be at 750A with 5C...but my post was in reference to keeping cell AH lower, so the 150AH wouldn't apply...

EVComponents mentioned they have some new batteries on the horizon that would be more cost effective for DIYers...So I am excited to hear about that...

Also I have heard about some technology where they are integrating silcon nano wires in with the lithium batteries to help them hold and discharge more power for given density...pretty exciting!


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## caspar21 (Apr 8, 2009)

Bowser330 said:


> Also I have heard about some technology where they are integrating silcon nano wires in with the lithium batteries to help them hold and discharge more power for given density...pretty exciting!


same energy density? or to create a higher energy density?

if all they are doing in increasing the "C" value then that would be helpful.
however, a higher energy density that is cost effective.. now thats 
earth shaking news!


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## Bowser330 (Jun 15, 2008)

caspar21 said:


> same energy density? or to create a higher energy density?
> 
> If all they are doing in increasing the "C" value then that would be helpful.
> however, a higher energy density that is cost effective.. now thats
> earth shaking news!


http://news.stanford.edu/news/2008/january9/nanowire-010908.html



> Nanowire battery can hold 10 times the charge of existing lithium-ion battery





> A laptop that now runs on battery for two hours could operate for 20 hours, a boon to ocean-hopping business travelers.
> "It's not a small improvement," Cui said. "It's a revolutionary development."


The size of a 40AH Lifepo4 could be as powerful as a 400AH??

Now you combine that technology with this technology....

http://www.nature.com/news/2009/090311/full/news.2009.156.html



> Massachusetts Institute of Technology in Cambridge have found a way to get a common lithium compound to release and take up lithium ions in a matter of seconds.





> The compound, which is already used in the electrodes of some commercial lithium-ion batteries, might lead to laptop batteries capable of charging themselves in about a minute.


So with both of these technologies we could soon have batteries that hold 10X the power for the size AND can have speedy discharge and charge rates (safely)...

The future is bright my friends...


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

As I remember Cui severely overstated the actual increase in capacity.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

> Another limitation is that while Cui's silicon nanowires make great anodes, lithium-battery technology has greater need for improved cathodes. In a given battery, substituting an anode that stores more lithium ions has no impact without a corresponding cathode that can supply more charge.


More here: http://www.technologyreview.com/Nanotech/20000/?nlid=785


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## Bowser330 (Jun 15, 2008)

Interview with Dr. Yi Cui:

http://www.fourwinds10.com/siterun_data/science_technology/new_technologies_and_inventions/news.php?q=1200886806

So 10X improvement is only possible if they (Scientists) are to figure out a way of stable adhesion for silicon nanowires to the cathode material...I guess its only an matter of time and research...

However, with the current technology, the anode could be reduced in size and you could use that weight savings to make a cathode with more surface area for "several fold improvement".

So 100AH battery size can store ~300AH?? 

Bring it!


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## 280z1975 (Oct 2, 2008)

Bowser330 said:


> Interview with Dr. Yi Cui:
> 
> http://www.fourwinds10.com/siterun_...nologies_and_inventions/news.php?q=1200886806
> 
> ...


It will be brought in ~5 years according to the interviewee, Dr. Cui. So I say buy Lithium now and then when these are finally ready (5 years + 2 years to refinment and larger production) your Lituiums will be at a lower capacity (70% or so) and good to be used as a solar/wind battery system for your house (or a second "around town EV") now that your primary EV has 10X capacity! Just think ... the 53kwh pack of the Tesla is now 530kwh for the same weight and size ... so instead of 200+ mile range you have 2000 mile range  ... or you could cut the weight of the pack to 1/4 the size and still have 500 mile + range and a car that is SOOOO much lighter (not to mention less cost because you have 3/4 less battery to buy). 

Even if you don't have a 10x improvement you will still see a capacity improvement of around 6 to 8% bettering every year (forgot where I saw this, but it was in a Tesla article about what if there was no new batteries to come out what would customers see in the 7 to 10 years of expected battery life). So you would still be looking at 100AH batteries size then being in the 130 to 150ah range ... still a decent improvement.


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## caspar21 (Apr 8, 2009)

if we only get 5x improvement from this technology then that will mean 
comparable range to ICE powered cars.

that and the cost are the main things holding back the EV right now.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

caspar21 said:


> if we only get 5x improvement from this technology then that will mean
> comparable range to ICE powered cars.
> 
> that and the cost are the main things holding back the EV right now.


Most ICE's have about a 350-400 mile range. 200+ mile range from batteries is already possible, so all we'd need is to double that to equal most ICE's. Less really since a lightweight low aero EV could easily do 300 miles right now with lithium.


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## Bowser330 (Jun 15, 2008)

What we're all saying, in different ways is, JUST A LITTLE MORE!!!

That's all battery tech needs right now and of course lower prices, which will naturally come as better technology is released...


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## Nsharit (Mar 17, 2009)

EVComponents said:


> *For example the following is a sample package:*
> 
> Netgain Warp 11 "HV" Motor
> Zilla Z1K-HV (300 volts nominal)
> ...


Do you offer the Hepa Pedal separately? I don't see it on your website.


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## Bowser330 (Jun 15, 2008)

EVComponents said:


> *For example the following is a sample package:*
> 
> Netgain Warp 11 "HV" Motor
> Zilla Z1K-HV (300 volts nominal)
> ...


I feel the DIY community might gain from power graphs they can relate too, sort of like the maximum output curves that are available for ICEs...

As long as we can log the maximum motor-amps at each RPM we could create a proper power graph. We can use the amps to calculate the torque from the motor and then calculate the HP from the torque... 

Something like this...


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## karlos (Jun 30, 2008)

Do I understand correctly that at 288V and with a 'non advanced setting' this motor will give regen through the Zilla controller?
Is there loss in efficiency using the non advanced settings?
Hope someone can enlighten me on this and if the answers are good, I could be out lookin for a donor vehicle very soon!


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## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

karlos said:


> Do I understand correctly that at 288V and with a 'non advanced setting' this motor will give regen through the Zilla controller?


http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forum...n-kostov-11-zillai-34275.html?highlight=regen

http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forum...oller-prototype-29062p40.html?highlight=regen




karlos said:


> Is there loss in efficiency using the non advanced settings?


Take two motors that are the same size but one is wound for 48V and uses advanced brush timing to tolerate 192V while the other is straight out wound for 192V and uses neutral brush timing. The first motor will have fewer "turns" consisting of larger diameter "wire" so it will have lower losses at a given current, which sounds like a real winner until you consider that it will also produce less torque per amp than its neutrally timed counterpart. Of course, the neutrally timed motor (IF IT ALSO HAS INTERPOLES) is theoretically capable of tolerating regen, but as you will see in the above two links of search results that might not be worth a whole lot unless you live in a hilly area.

As is usual in life: no free lunches!


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

karlos said:


> Do I understand correctly that at 288V and with a 'non advanced setting' this motor will give regen through the Zilla controller?


It is my understanding that the Zilla controller does not support regen regardless of the motor.



> Is there loss in efficiency using the non advanced settings?


My experience with testing motors and shifting brush position is that it makes little difference in the gross efficiency of the motor. It does alter the shape of the efficiency curve, so for a particular load, there may be a few points higher (or lower) efficiency.

Advancing brushes is done to get the motor to commutate better, period. Now, when the brushes start arcing and zorching, I guess that isn't an efficient use of power, but at that point, your goose is cooked.

Regards,

major


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## 280z1975 (Oct 2, 2008)

Tesseract said:


> snip ... As is usual in life: no free lunches!


I came across this bit while reading the Tesla blog (aboug 3/4 of the way down):

"EV used 279 kWh in month. Note 57 kWh of regen adds range."
http://www.teslamotors.com/blog5/?p=70

I think 57kwh of extra energy is significant considering the use of 279kwh of use. In the article they averaged .27kwh/mile this means they went roughly 1033 miles and got about 211 miles via regen (which is 20% extra) I think that isn't to bad of a 'free lunch' ... now as to what it costs you to get an extra bit of range, that is another post 

Just some interesting info I wanted to pass along and add to the debate.

** I just went an read most of the way through one of Tesseract's posted links and realized that regen in AC vs DC is apple's and orange's. but still thought the regen info above is interesting **


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## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

280z1975 said:


> ...
> "EV used 279 kWh in month. Note 57 kWh of regen adds range."
> http://www.teslamotors.com/blog5/?p=70
> 
> I think 57kwh of extra energy is significant considering the use of 279kwh of use. In the article they averaged .27kwh/mile this means they went roughly 1033 miles and got about 211 miles via regen (which is 20% extra) I think that isn't to bad of a 'free lunch' ... *now as to what it costs you to get an extra bit of range, that is another post*


Now you know that this thread isn't about AC motors, so this is technically irrelevant, but let's run the numbers:

A similar motor/controller from ACP - if you could actually buy it, of course - costs, what, $25000US? We'll use this combo, though, because it, at least, is _half_ as powerful as the Soliton1 while the HPG and other offerings are only capable of delivering tiny fractions relatively speaking.

Getting 20% extra mileage from regen seems awfully generous but I'll go with it. The electricity rate in my area is $0.10 per kWh, btw

Conversely, the Soliton1 combined with the new NetGain motor - both of which are theoretically capable of regen themselves - will set you back approx. $6500US.

So how much free mileage from regen would you need to get from the ACP combo to justify its higher? Let's assume that our vehicle uses 400wh per mile (because of all them hills that must be around to get such a good regen percentage) which means it would cost $0.04 per mile in electricity. But with regen we save 20% of that on average, so $0.032 per mile is our net cost. The difference between the two is our savings, which is a rather meager 8 mils per mile ($0.008). 

Good grief - you'd have to drive over 2 million miles to pay back the premium in cost of the ACP system over the Soliton1/NetGain one...

And people wonder why I am so unimpressed with AC systems 

I mean, I will cheerfully agree that there are some other advantages to AC motors, but saving money over DC through the use of regen ain't one of them.


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## 280z1975 (Oct 2, 2008)

Tess,

Sorry to get you all "AC vs DC" agro again ... I actually agree with you that DC is the best option for cost to performance. 

You mention the new Netgain motor and your controller ... would you (or should I say care to) venture what sort of performance it would produce? I see the 11"HV as the motor to match with your controller.

-Gregg-


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## CroDriver (Jan 8, 2009)

Tesseract, I completely agree with you about the AC vs. DC issue but...



Tesseract said:


> Good grief - you'd have to drive over 2 million miles to pay back the premium in cost of the ACP system over the Soliton1/NetGain one...



...the biggest problem of EV's is their limited range. Nobody cares about that 0.008$ per mile but everyone would like to have 20% more range. I think that's why all car manufacturers are building AC EVs. The 20% increase of range would probably be doubled with a AWD AC EV. 

I think that the world isn't ready for pure EVs, they have to have some range extender so regen is not THAT importaint right now. When the infrastructure and batteries improve we can have pure EV's and I belive that DC even than can compete with AC


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Remember regen can effectively be "added" to a series DC motors by using a belt driven alternator or generator running off the front shaft with an electronic clutch. That way you avoid all the hassles of doing it through the controller and motor. Doesn't help the power to weight ratio of course but it shouldn't add that much.


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## Bowser330 (Jun 15, 2008)

JRP3 said:


> Remember regen can effectively be "added" to a series DC motors by using a belt driven alternator or generator running off the front shaft with an electronic clutch. That way you avoid all the hassles of doing it through the controller and motor. Doesn't help the power to weight ratio of course but it shouldn't add that much.


+1 on the idea to mate a generator-head to the open shaft of the DC traction motor through some type of brake activated e-clutch..


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## Techie (Sep 19, 2009)

I like the regen idea based more on saving wear on the breaks. For me the question is, would regen from say the warp11HV without advanced timing be effective at slowing the car significanly? I'm interested to see if warp11HV with Solution1 can do this. If it can, then for myself I see no reason to go AC. Replacing brushes and checking the comm every 50,000km or so is not much maintainance. 

On a side note, is the solution1 capable of being setup in 2 motor config or 2 motor/2 Solution1? MORE POWER!!!


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## Bowser330 (Jun 15, 2008)

Techie said:


> I like the regen idea based more on saving wear on the breaks. For me the question is, would regen from say the warp11HV without advanced timing be effective at slowing the car significanly? I'm interested to see if warp11HV with Solution1 can do this. If it can, then for myself I see no reason to go AC. Replacing brushes and checking the comm every 50,000km or so is not much maintainance.
> 
> On a side note, is the solution1 capable of being setup in 2 motor config or 2 motor/2 Solution1? MORE POWER!!!


Dual 11" HV + Dual Soliton-1

1000A in 11" = 300ftlbs, 300 * 2 = 600ftlbs!

600ftlbs (1000a) up to what rpm though???

up to 4000rpm = 457HP
up to 3500rpm = 400HP 
up to 3000rpm = 343HP


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## Techie (Sep 19, 2009)

My thinking is that it would definately allow for elimination of the transmission going dual!


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## gdirwin (Apr 7, 2009)

Any more information available on the Warp 11 HV?


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## 280z1975 (Oct 2, 2008)

EV Components? Any new news on the Netgain 11HV? I would REALLY like to know some initial thoughts ... pictures would be awesome ... video and data .... well I might need to go change my pants  then.

Can you at least tell us if the motors arrived?

-Gregg-


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## esoneson (Sep 1, 2008)

Ev Components:

It's been 2 months since you last posted on the Netgain 11 HV.

I'm sure there are quite a few possible reasons for the silence.

Two come to mind: 1. You are having way too much fun playing with them.
2. You zorched 'em.

How about an update?

Eric


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## EVComponents (Apr 20, 2009)

First of all, I did not start this thread. 

I ordered a bunch of the Warp 11 HV motors from Netgain and they were orginally promised to us in October back when this thread started.

Netgain has pushed back the delivery of their first production run to December. I am being told by Netgain mid December is their estimated delivery.

That is all I know at this time. I think we have sold all of them.
As soon as I know that Netgain is doing a second production run and an ETA, I will get more if all goes well.


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## EVComponents (Apr 20, 2009)

We can now take orders for the Warp 11 HV. They are producing and shipping in low volume. We have added it to our website.

http://www.evcomponents.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=WarP+11+HV


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## Bowser330 (Jun 15, 2008)

EVComponents said:


> We can now take orders for the Warp 11 HV. They are producing and shipping in low volume. We have added it to our website.
> 
> http://www.evcomponents.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=WarP+11+HV


Great!

Why does it say advanced timing is not available?


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Maybe because it's already wound for the higher voltages so brush advance isn't necessary?
Edit: never mind I see what you mean. Maybe that's something they will offer in the future.


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

Bowser330 said:


> Why does it say advanced timing is not available?


Hi Bowser,

It says that it has interpoles. That would negate the need to advance.

major


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

This is where the confusion comes from:


> Operating Voltage: 288 V Neutral Timing, 336 V Advanced Timing


 Then it states that Advanced timing is not available.


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## GerhardRP (Nov 17, 2009)

I am playing with a computer model for motor performance. I have been looking at the WarP13, but I need some high amperage data to test the model. 
Does anyone have any operating numbers.. I just need RPM, Motor voltage and current. Note whether the field coils are connected in series or parallel.

The new Warp11-HV seems like amore interesting motor though..I'll tackle that next. Do its performance curves match their earlier 11 inch motor?


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## Bowser330 (Jun 15, 2008)

GerhardRP said:


> I am playing with a computer model for motor performance. I have been looking at the WarP13, but I need some high amperage data to test the model.
> Does anyone have any operating numbers.. I just need RPM, Motor voltage and current. Note whether the field coils are connected in series or parallel.
> 
> The new Warp11-HV seems like amore interesting motor though..I'll tackle that next. Do its performance curves match their earlier 11 inch motor?


Officially i think the only performance curves out there are 72V ones from Netgain which leave a lot to the imagination and "multiple" generalizations of its potential at higher voltages....


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## Bowser330 (Jun 15, 2008)

JRP3 said:


> This is where the confusion comes from:
> Then it states that Advanced timing is not available.


Exactly....

I am also a bit confused about it possibly being a future offering/option when it seems that advanced timing is something pretty commonly known these days and not some secret dark art as it was in the past...


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## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

Bowser330 said:


> Officially i think the only performance curves out there are 72V ones from Netgain which leave a lot to the imagination and "multiple" generalizations of its potential at higher voltages....


True, but George (NetGain) told met that doubling the voltage across the motor while keeping the torque load the same doubles the RPM... 

And, based on the performance data produced by the Soliton1 and our dyno, that more or less seems to be the case.


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## Bowser330 (Jun 15, 2008)

So 288V is 4X as much as 72V. And with 72V, at ~500A it looks to be about 160ftlbs @ ~1250rpm. Then @ 288V the same 500A and 160ftlbs would be available @ 5000rpm. cool.


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## Georgia Tech (Dec 5, 2008)

GerhardRP said:


> I am playing with a computer model for motor performance. I have been looking at the WarP13, but I need some high amperage data to test the model.
> Does anyone have any operating numbers.. I just need RPM, Motor voltage and current. Note whether the field coils are connected in series or parallel.
> 
> The new Warp11-HV seems like amore interesting motor though..I'll tackle that next. Do its performance curves match their earlier 11 inch motor?


Hey, where is this software ? I have been looking for this for quite some time now!
What all does it model?


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## Batterypoweredtoad (Feb 5, 2008)

Using the stats in the "technical specifications" for that motor I did some calcs.

We know:
AT 72V
-135 ft lbs of torque
-452 amps
-43hp

With some calcs we can figure out that all happens at 1673 RPM.

Keeping the amps at 452 (and therefore the torque the same) we get:

72V=1673 rpm and 43 hp
144V= 3344 rpm and 86hp
288V= 6688 rpm and 172 hp
336V= 7807 rpm and 201 hp

That is just at 452 amps. Guess I need more info to know what happens with a big amp controller and giant battery pack.

Not bad, I bet if you did some horsepower through the rpm range comparisons with a high power ICE, this motor would hold its own.

If I made any stupid errors or assumptions I wont get my feeling hurt if you tell me.


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

Batterypoweredtoad said:


> If I made any stupid errors or assumptions I wont get my feeling hurt if you tell me.


Hey toad,

I hate to tell you this, but.......... 

All the points in the first set (@452A) calculate to 98.4% efficient.

All the points in the second set (@904A) calculate to 49.2% efficient.

You started with bad data and made incorrect assumptions and got wrong results. Besides that, nice job  All kidding aside, the motor manufacturer needs to supply good performance numbers. Trying to do it your way gives you nothing reliable.

Regards,

major


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## Bowser330 (Jun 15, 2008)

I concur, we really do need the motor manufacturers or specialized resellers to post up some relevant performance graphs...especially since these motors can cost up to 5K$USD...

It might be worth the time and effort to make one graph with multiple power curves each representing a different system voltage. That way the graph informs the buyers but also benefits the reseller by enticing customers to upgrade their ev components to upgrade to the next level/voltage...In fact resellers could offer performance packages that could upgrade the customers to different stages based on the power graph...just a thought...


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## esoneson (Sep 1, 2008)

Batterypoweredtoad said:


> ......With a 2000amp controller you could have over 200hp available for a 5856rpm spread.


I think you went non-linear here.

@201 HP:
402 amp, 336 volts, 7807 RPMs
904 amp, 336 volts, 3904 RPMs
2000 amp, 336 volts, 5856 RPMs <------ if it were linear, this would be smaller than 3904............right? Am I missing something here?


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## Batterypoweredtoad (Feb 5, 2008)

major said:


> Hey toad,
> 
> I hate to tell you this, but..........
> 
> ...


Oops-doubled the amps AND cut the rpms in half. Cant do that. Should be doubled amps, same rpm, and double torque-hence double horsepower. All of it is based on netgains supplied data which looks to be just calculating horsepower from electrical power in and not taking motor efficiency into account. Guess the first set is the only one worth a hoot, and only worth about that much.


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## Batterypoweredtoad (Feb 5, 2008)

esoneson said:


> I think you went non-linear here.
> 
> @201 HP:
> 402 amp, 336 volts, 7807 RPMs
> ...


I was referencing the number of rpms you would have over 200hp available. Using my flawed numbers you could have had 200hp from 1900rpm to 7700 or so rpm.


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## GerhardRP (Nov 17, 2009)

Georgia Tech said:


> Hey, where is this software ? I have been looking for this for quite some time now!
> What all does it model?


Well, I'm still writing it.. I will explain and share soon.

Extract information about the field and losses from measurements, Use current and voltage to predict RPM and torque, and therefore power and efficiency.

To whet your appetite, I attach two files.


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## thominabox (Nov 22, 2009)

*My Rambler*

Hi all just wanted to send my project E-rambler I haver an Otis 24-65 serial no 62179 part no 900-y5 could you help with this motor feald is 5 ohm com 4ohm the car is a like a vaga wagon kool car


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## GerhardRP (Nov 17, 2009)

Bowser330 said:


> Officially i think the only performance curves out there are 72V ones from Netgain which leave a lot to the imagination and "multiple" generalizations of its potential at higher voltages....


Does anyone know these three things about the WarP 11 motor:

Armature Resistance
Field Resistance
Number of field turns

Thanks, Gerhard


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## Batterypoweredtoad (Feb 5, 2008)

Just a heads up about trying to use Standard Warp11 specs to do calcs on this motor. This motor is a mix of 9" parts, 11" parts, and includes adding interpoles. Basically I dont think the info will transfer.


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## GerhardRP (Nov 17, 2009)

Batterypoweredtoad said:


> Just a heads up about trying to use Standard Warp11 specs to do calcs on this motor. This motor is a mix of 9" parts, 11" parts, and includes adding interpoles. Basically I dont think the info will transfer.


I know the published performance curves are for the standard motor... I'm refining the program based on that motor and want resistances and turns for that one. When data is available on the new one, I'll tackle that.

Actually, resistances and turns for any of the dyno'ed motors would be useful.


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## patrickza (Dec 28, 2009)

General opinion question: 
If you were using a WarP 11 HV in a small vehicle conversion, would you run it through a transmission or not?


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Depends on a lot of things. If I lived in a relatively flat area and had a very lightweight vehicle then I might go direct drive. Other than that probably not.


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## caspar21 (Apr 8, 2009)

patrickza said:


> General opinion question:
> If you were using a WarP 11 HV in a small vehicle conversion, would you run it through a transmission or not?


it also depends on if you are using an underpowered setup (due to costs) or if you have power to spare.

personally, i like at least stock performance, so a small light car is using a warp 11.(overpowered). with stock transmissionin 5th gear it can light up the tires off the line easily. it will be much more efficient to use a simple reduction unit in this setup.


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## patrickza (Dec 28, 2009)

caspar21 said:


> it also depends on if you are using an underpowered setup (due to costs) or if you have power to spare.
> 
> personally, i like at least stock performance, so a small light car is using a warp 11.(overpowered). with stock transmissionin 5th gear it can light up the tires off the line easily. it will be much more efficient to use a simple reduction unit in this setup.


I've reached a stage where I can afford a little sports car, but I'm much more interested in building myself an electric one, so I'll be using a lightweight kit type car, hopefully all up weight will be under 750kg. With that I'd like to put down some serious power, so I'm most likely going with 307v64AH headway cells, just under 20kwh, they're capable of putting down 10C for brief periods, so I could be looking at around 180kW's worth of power. I'm not too worried about top speed. Our speed limit here is 75mph, so a top speed anywhere between 80 and 90 is fine. What I want is acceleration so hard it makes your balls ache!

So in the interest of weight saving I thought it might be possible to use a direct drive, and hopefully end up with a poor (well relatively) man's Wrightspeed at the end of the day.


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## caspar21 (Apr 8, 2009)

patrickza said:


> under 750kg. With that I'd like to put down some serious power, so I'm most likely going with 307v64AH headway cells, just under 20kwh, they're capable of putting down 10C for brief periods, so I could be looking at around 180kW's worth of power. ..


looks like direct drive will work with a warp11HV quite well.

the motor will take more than the battery will provide but you can limit it with the controller. 10c is 640amp. 180kw is comparable to aprox 230hp? with plenty of torque to nail you and yours to the back of the seat(if you got enough rubber on it)

the main question is what ratio to make the rear end on it. (sorry if i get too elementary here) lower ratio means more rubber usable on the drive wheels and less top end. higher ratios mean it will still accelerate hard but have a top end over 100 mph. 
that voltage makes the warp11hv have a lot of usable rpm! the only lack i see here is that motor can easily use 2x that 640amps. if you have not purchased the batteries then i would say look for the next size up, maybe 80ah with similar C rating, or maybe 60ah's with a higher C rating.
800amps would put this motor into a whole different class of power lvls.
1200amps would put you into the 11-12 second 1/4 mile range if you can get it to hook up.


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## patrickza (Dec 28, 2009)

caspar21 said:


> looks like direct drive will work with a warp11HV quite well.
> 
> the motor will take more than the battery will provide but you can limit it with the controller. 10c is 640amp. 180kw is comparable to aprox 230hp? with plenty of torque to nail you and yours to the back of the seat(if you got enough rubber on it)
> 
> ...


Thanks, that's all good info. The headway cells claim to do 10C continuous and 20C bursts, that would get me up to the 1200 amps needed, however I use 24 series of these cells on my ebike (http://evalbum.com/2835) and reach up to just about 9C of full throttle. This pushes the pack voltage down to the lower 60's or +- 2.6v per cell. While I'm sure they could push out 20 very briefly, and the charts support it, this pushes the voltage down to the 2v per cell level. Not somewhere I want to be quite often. The cells I'm looking at are 16AH each, so I would run 4 parallel to to 64AH, if I ran 6 parallel I could happily do 1000 amps, but that would take my battery pack weight up from just under 200kg to just under 300kg, never mind increasing my cost by 50%.

My thinking is that with this motor, and a high power high current controller like the Z2kHV I could be happy with this car for the next 5 years at 180kW for a 750kg car. This is a power to weight ratio of 240 watts/kg or 6.9 pounds/hp. That's far better than an Audi RS4 (8.6), and just off the level of a dodge viper (6.7). Should be plenty for everyday use, since I'm building a fun daily driver and not a dragster. And in 5 or so years when the battery pack has depleted to levels I'm no longer happy with I can retire them to function as storage for a solar use and get cells which should be better and cheaper and allow me to upgrade the car to use the motor to it's full potential.

I'm still trying to figure out gearing. Obviously if I gear it too high I'll lose some efficiency in the hills by needing a higher amp draw, but if I gear it too low I'll run out of steam at higher speeds. Now I'd like to be able to light up the tyres on takeoff (mostly when showing the car to people just to get them to take notice of the EV), but I'd also like to have usable overtaking acceleration on our freeways, going from 60 to 80mph.

A 7 to 1 total reduction would give me a top speed of 87mph, depending on tyres of course, and a 6 to 1 reduction would give a top speed of 101mph. I'll most likely go for a figure in between erring on the lower end as I prefer acceleration to speed, but I haven't done much research on ways to gear down without a gearbox so tips would be appreciated. I'll start a build thread in future when I have a proper timeline for the vehicle.


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## DavidDymaxion (Dec 1, 2008)

Sounds like a great project!

Maybe you could get a quick change rear end. Then you could have 6:1 daily driver gears, throw in 4:1 for road racing, and a 2:1 for a land speed number. Of course, keeping the gearbox would mean you could instantly switch modes any time you liked. 

One caution with the Kostov is it doesn't handle high amps as well as the Warp motors. With direct drive you spend more time in current multiplication mode (your motor current can be 3x your battery current, for example). You can read about John Wayland's direct drive Kostov adventures at http://www.plasmaboyracing.com/ . Keep in mind John's Kostov had mods to make it tougher.


patrickza said:


> Thanks, that's all good info. The headway cells claim to do 10C continuous and 20C bursts, that would get me up to the 1200 amps needed, however I use 24 series of these cells on my ebike (http://evalbum.com/2835) and reach up to just about 9C of full throttle. This pushes the pack voltage down to the lower 60's or +- 2.6v per cell. While I'm sure they could push out 20 very briefly, and the charts support it, this pushes the voltage down to the 2v per cell level. Not somewhere I want to be quite often. The cells I'm looking at are 16AH each, so I would run 4 parallel to to 64AH, if I ran 6 parallel I could happily do 1000 amps, but that would take my battery pack weight up from just under 200kg to just under 300kg, never mind increasing my cost by 50%.
> 
> My thinking is that with this motor, and a high power high current controller like the Z2kHV I could be happy with this car for the next 5 years at 180kW for a 750kg car. This is a power to weight ratio of 240 watts/kg or 6.9 pounds/hp. That's far better than an Audi RS4 (8.6), and just off the level of a dodge viper (6.7). Should be plenty for everyday use, since I'm building a fun daily driver and not a dragster. And in 5 or so years when the battery pack has depleted to levels I'm no longer happy with I can retire them to function as storage for a solar use and get cells which should be better and cheaper and allow me to upgrade the car to use the motor to it's full potential.
> 
> ...


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## caspar21 (Apr 8, 2009)

patrickza said:


> ... The headway cells claim to do 10C continuous and 20C bursts, that would get me up to the 1200 amps needed, however I use 24 series of these cells on my ebike (http://evalbum.com/2835) and reach up to just about 9C of full throttle. This pushes the pack voltage down to the lower 60's or +- 2.6v per cell. While I'm sure they could push out 20 very briefly, and the charts support it, this pushes the voltage down to the 2v per cell level. ...


woo. so with the Zilla2kHV you could setup the controller as switchable(i think the zilla can do that) between normal mode(9-10c max) and "Showoff mode"(20c) and see how the battery packs handle it. 

i know the soliton controller allows for those switchable settings.(is your zilla choice set in stone? compare the soliton, it is able to handle 1000amp continuous, not even the zilla2k can do that.. and your setup would probably allow for the 1600 amp max settings).


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## EVComponents (Apr 20, 2009)

caspar21 said:


> i know the soliton controller allows for those switchable settings.(is your zilla choice set in stone? compare the soliton, it is able to handle 1000amp continuous, not even the zilla2k can do that.. and your setup would probably allow for the 1600 amp max settings).


That is one of the more silly claims made by Jeffrey Jenkins. There is no reason to do 1,000 amps continuously for any extended period of time.
600 amps continuous could power a bus as highway speeds.

The only reason to have a high powered motor amps (2,000 for a Z2K) would be during your acceleration period when you need it. You are never going to need 2,000 amps for more than 10 to 20 seconds. 

In reality, a Zilla Z1K-HV is about all that just about anyone needs. Most people are fine with the LV low voltage model. The Soliton controller was designed for a market that actually is extremely low volume. It is aimed at the Z1K-EHV. Extra high voltage.

Soliton = 1,000 amps and 360 volts nominal.
Z1K-EHV = 1,000 amps and 348 volts nominal.

I'll be blunt about this. Nobody really purchases the Z1K-EHV. It is a model with very low volume. Everyone goes for the Z1K (LV or HV) or the Z2K-EHV. Jeffrey Jenkins made a mistake in their design. Their design and target market probably doesn't have enough volume to sustain that product.

In addition, their controller is overpriced for what is offered. Netgain (Ryan) made a much better design that is flexible. He can easily do a 750 amp, 1,000 amp, and many different voltage settings between 160 to 360.

Frankly, I don't see all three controllers surviving 2010.

Just my opinion.


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## caspar21 (Apr 8, 2009)

all i was saying is the soliton seems to be a hearty controller that is very configurable. i guess, now i know why evcomponents does not carry them. lol.

i did not say they were better, only to compare before you buy.
i personally like the connectivity as i am techy and enjoy playing with settings.(fyi, i have no experience with either. but this is a netgain thread)


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## GerhardRP (Nov 17, 2009)

caspar21 said:


> wow. that could get heated, lol.
> 
> so.. any new netgain products coming out? i think we would all be more interested in that topic. 8)


Is there any info on the new WarP 11? Earlier posts suggested it would be out by now. When can we hope for dyno curves?
Gerhard


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## xrotaryguy (Jul 26, 2007)

Hi guys. I cleaned up the thread a bit. Sorry if I stepped on any toes or removed any pertinent information.


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## xrotaryguy (Jul 26, 2007)

Let's just get back to the Netgain Offerings discussion.


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## neanderthal (Jul 24, 2008)

I agree. Thanks xrotaryguy. I didn't mean to cause trouble. I'm a rotary guy too. I have a 1st gen rx-7 with a 9" ADC motor, and another 1st gen with 12a rotary! Ha ha! I can't kick the rotary habit.

Back on track... I'm pretty excited about the 11" high voltage motor. Although I am a little worried that it won't perform the way they are saying it will. 

I guess there are a few reasons I think it would, and a few I think it may not.

+ Netgain has never let people down with their specs in the past...
+ They have been doing this for years and know what they are doing.

- the specs seem too good to be true
- the motor to date still only exists on paper, no performance curves, only specs
- Kostov has a similar design with less impressive specs, and they have been the kings of high voltage for years. So I'm half expecting the kostov HV and the Netgain HV to perform similarly, despite either companies specs...

but again, Netgain has always lived up to expectations in the past


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## CroDriver (Jan 8, 2009)

neanderthal said:


> - Kostov has a similar design with less impressive specs, and they have been the kings of high voltage for years. So I'm half expecting the kostov HV and the Netgain HV to perform similarly, despite either companies specs...


Kostov has modified the 11" motor. It is rated for 250V now and has a stronger collector so it can spin up to 8000 RPM now vs. 6000 RPM of the older model. Maybe I'll send my motors to the factory for a upgrade.

http://kostov-motors.com/news/


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## Guest (Jan 4, 2010)

Wow, that is excellent news about the Kostov Motors. I too have an older 11" Kostov. Maybe I could send in my armature for an upgrade for speed increase. I have an extra one. 


Pete 

http://greenev.zapto.org/kostov


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## Guest (Jan 4, 2010)

Wow, that is excellent news about the Kostov Motors. I too have an older 11" Kostov. Maybe I could send in my armature for an upgrade for speed increase. I have an extra one. 


Pete 

http://greenev.zapto.org/kostov


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## Techie (Sep 19, 2009)

I'm planning to go with the warp11hv in direct drive, any idea on how this will perform with hills? I've heard it's no good to go dc with hills as there's lots of amps drawn, I wonder tho solution1 with 1000A availible... (planning a trip thru the mountains when my ev/hybrid is done.


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## Bowser330 (Jun 15, 2008)

CroDriver said:


> Kostov has modified the 11" motor. It is rated for 250V now and has a stronger collector so it can spin up to 8000 RPM now vs. 6000 RPM of the older model. Maybe I'll send my motors to the factory for a upgrade.
> 
> http://kostov-motors.com/news/


very cool...

if only we had power curves which show current levels up to 1000-2000A and rpm from 0-8000. That way we can map out the torque band of the motor+controller.....

CroDriver is there anyway to pull data from the zilla which shows amps per rpm?


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## CroDriver (Jan 8, 2009)

Bowser330 said:


> very cool...
> 
> if only we had power curves which show current levels up to 1000-2000A and rpm from 0-8000. That way we can map out the torque band of the motor+controller.....
> 
> CroDriver is there anyway to pull data from the zilla which shows amps per rpm?


I haven't connected my Zilla to a PC yet since I don't have a PC with a serial port. I'm using a Palm for programing it.

I found a in-car PC with a serial port. I'll build that and a 11" touch screen in the car and make a nice dashboard and datalog application. I have a lot work with the dual-motor setup, new batteries and BMS so it could take a while till I implement this...

Send Plamen a mail if you have questions, he's a nice guy, really trying to help.

Here is his mail:

[email protected]


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## Matthijs (Jun 19, 2009)

CroDriver said:


> I haven't connected my Zilla to a PC yet since I don't have a PC with a serial port. I'm using a Palm for programing it.
> 
> I found a in-car PC with a serial port. I'll build that and a 11" touch screen in the car and make a nice dashboard and datalog application. I have a lot work with the dual-motor setup, new batteries and BMS so it could take a while till I implement this...
> 
> ...










 
($10-$15) (Now you have a broader range of car pc's to choose from.)

Why is kostov having a hard time building the dual version of the 11" motors? I see in the news section they did testing back in August 2009 and they are selling it. Are these the upgraded performance curves already? 
http://kostov-motors.com/files/productattachments/04a1d5e7278db48475f2aa409b5df5ce_S192F01.1.pdf
http://kostov-motors.com/files/productattachments/21df9baa0453d539f868d9041f11e4a6_S400F01.pdf


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## GerhardRP (Nov 17, 2009)

Techie said:


> I'm planning to go with the warp11hv in direct drive, any idea on how this will perform with hills? I've heard it's no good to go dc with hills as there's lots of amps drawn, I wonder tho solution1 with 1000A availible... (planning a trip thru the mountains when my ev/hybrid is done.


For mountainous travel you certainly want a system with good regen capability. The interpoles of the new motor should make that possible.
Gerhard


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## tomofreno (Mar 3, 2009)

Adjustable regen would be good also. Then you can adjust it up to "engine brake" downhill, instead of using mechanical brakes, and reap 100A +/-50A or so regen in the process, depending on grade.


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## Techie (Sep 19, 2009)

Ya, That's what I thought, I just really don't want to fork out the huge $$$ for an AC setup if I can avoid it... btw I'm pretty sure that I do need a large motor as the car I'm converting is a bit larger than most conversions... '62 comet 4door.


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