# Chargers



## Lordwacky (Jan 28, 2009)

Hi all,

I just starting to assemble the components for my build. I've already ordered the batteries (180 ahr Sky energy) and already have the motor mounted (warp 9). I'm now looking into chargers. I have 48x batteries putting my pack @~154 volts. I need to find a good charger that can do the LiFePo batteries. The best charger that I can find is the Manzanita Micro but dang, its spendy and it isn't isolated. Are there better/cheaper chargers out there? 

I really like the Manzanita because it sounds like it easy to change the input V(120/220) and the output V for whatever you want/need. Is the fact that this charger isn't isolated a big deal? I was planning to have the charger mounted in the car.

Any advice you guys can send my way would be greatly appreciated. 

Thanks!


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## Nomad (May 8, 2009)

Lordwacky said:


> Hi all,
> 
> I just starting to assemble the components for my build. I've already ordered the batteries (180 ahr Sky energy) and already have the motor mounted (warp 9). I'm now looking into chargers. I have 48x batteries putting my pack @~154 volts. I need to find a good charger that can do the LiFePo batteries. The best charger that I can find is the Manzanita Micro but dang, its spendy and it isn't isolated. Are there better/cheaper chargers out there?
> 
> ...


Jesus... 180Ah.. Let us know how that works out.. 28kW pack.


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## Lordwacky (Jan 28, 2009)

Nomad said:


> Jesus... 180Ah.. Let us know how that works out.. 28kW pack.


Heh, yeah, needless to say I convinced myself that it would be "cheaper in the long run", I came to that conclusion before I really took the time to consider that everything has to be more sophisticated, Charger, BMS, everything, which means more $$. either-way I'm super excited I'm hoping for ~90 mile range on my 1987 MR2 when it is finished.


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## Nomad (May 8, 2009)

Lordwacky said:


> Heh, yeah, needless to say I convinced myself that it would be "cheaper in the long run", I came to that conclusion before I really took the time to consider that everything has to be more sophisticated, Charger, BMS, everything, which means more $$. either-way I'm super excited I'm hoping for ~90 mile range on my 1987 MR2 when it is finished.


33kW=Gallon of gas so...GkW
PkW=Packs kW
(PkW/GkW)*mpg*3.5(Electric is 3.5 times more eff than ICE)*80% for DoD=ER

28/33*25*3.5*.8=59


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## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

Lordwacky said:


> I really like the Manzanita because it sounds like it easy to change the input V(120/220) and the output V for whatever you want/need. Is the fact that this charger isn't isolated a big deal? I was planning to have the charger mounted in the car.


There are certain bizarre fault conditions and/or poor wiring practices that could make a non-isolated charger unsafe, but as long as your pack is isolated from the vehicle chassis (as it should be) AND you have a GFCI protected circuit (you will need a GFCI breaker - used for spas - to protect a 240V circuit) then it will be perfectly safe. If you are in the habit of touching one of the battery terminals while the pack is being charged and while standing on a damp floor (and yes, even concrete conducts current - "shockingly" well, actually... ) then you will get electrocuted, though. Just a head's up


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## rillip3 (Jun 19, 2009)

Tesseract said:


> If you are in the habit of touching one of the battery terminals while the pack is being charged and while standing on a damp floor (and yes, even concrete conducts current - "shockingly" well, actually... ) then you will get electrocuted, though. Just a head's up


True story, did it with a shopsmith once. There was a current across the on-switch, of all places. Tingly! But not damaging, thankfully.


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## dimitri (May 16, 2008)

Lordwacky said:


> Hi all,
> 
> I really like the Manzanita because it sounds like it easy to change the input V(120/220) and the output V for whatever you want/need. Is the fact that this charger isn't isolated a big deal? I was planning to have the charger mounted in the car.
> 
> ...


Check out Elcon PFC from ZivanUSA people, its a new charger they are selling. Its similar to Zivan NG3, but has dual voltage, if that is important to you.


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## Lordwacky (Jan 28, 2009)

Nomad said:


> 33kW=Gallon of gas so...GkW
> PkW=Packs kW
> (PkW/GkW)*mpg*3.5(Electric is 3.5 times more eff than ICE)*80% for DoD=ER
> 
> 28/33*25*3.5*.8=59


 
Yeah 90 miles is a bit of a stretch goal. I had not seen this approximation before, thanks. I was also estimating based on 100% DOD, which I would never actualy use. Seems like 25mpg for an MR2 is a bit concervative, it a light car I would think it would get at least 30 mpg if driven normaly using a more modern engine. 

Do you have a feeling for how this formula works for LiFePo? Seems like this would be a good estimate for Lead, but with less weight of the LiFePo you'll get more range.

if you assume 30 mpg and 100% dod, you get darn near 90 (89) miles. at 80% dod you get 71 miles.


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## rillip3 (Jun 19, 2009)

Lordwacky said:


> Yeah 90 miles is a bit of a stretch goal. I had not seen this approximation before, thanks. I was also estimating based on 100% DOD, which I would never actualy use. Seems like 25mpg for an MR2 is a bit concervative, it a light car I would think it would get at least 30 mpg if driven normaly using a more modern engine.
> 
> Do you have a feeling for how this formula works for LiFePo? Seems like this would be a good estimate for Lead, but with less weight of the LiFePo you'll get more range.
> 
> if you assume 30 mpg and 100% dod, you get darn near 90 (89) miles. at 80% dod you get 71 miles.


I've heard that lithium are safe to take down to 90%, but don't know any details more than that.


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## Nomad (May 8, 2009)

rillip3 said:


> I've heard that lithium are safe to take down to 90%, but don't know any details more than that.


Define safe?

1000 cycles @ 90
2000 cycles @ 80
3000 cycles @ 70


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## Nomad (May 8, 2009)

Lordwacky said:


> Yeah 90 miles is a bit of a stretch goal. I had not seen this approximation before, thanks. I was also estimating based on 100% DOD, which I would never actualy use. Seems like 25mpg for an MR2 is a bit concervative, it a light car I would think it would get at least 30 mpg if driven normaly using a more modern engine.
> 
> Do you have a feeling for how this formula works for LiFePo? Seems like this would be a good estimate for Lead, but with less weight of the LiFePo you'll get more range.
> 
> if you assume 30 mpg and 100% dod, you get darn near 90 (89) miles. at 80% dod you get 71 miles.


Ya, it'll work for just about anything, it's not perfect by anymeans LOL YMMV never thought I'd use that and really be talking about Mileage and as far as the mr2's mpg I just googled it.


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## dimitri (May 16, 2008)

I personally don't get the idea of comparing original mpg and gas energy density when trying to figure out EV range, there are just too many variables.

IMHO, taking average 300Wh/mile guesstimate for a small to medium size car and then figuring amount of energy needed for a given range will give you better range figure, albeit still approximate, but more accurate than mpg comparisons.

So, with ( 48 x 180Ah x 3.2V X 0.8 DoD ) / 300Wh/mile = 73 miles of "comfortable" range, with ability to push to 80-85 with hypermiling...


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## Lordwacky (Jan 28, 2009)

dimitri said:


> Check out Elcon PFC from ZivanUSA people, its a new charger they are selling. Its similar to Zivan NG3, but has dual voltage, if that is important to you.


I went to the Zivan USA website and I didn't see the Elcon PFC listed. Also just tried to google it and nothing really came up. Do you have a website with specs that you can send me?

thanks
Mike


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## dimitri (May 16, 2008)

Lordwacky said:


> I went to the Zivan USA website and I didn't see the Elcon PFC listed. Also just tried to google it and nothing really came up. Do you have a website with specs that you can send me?
> 
> thanks
> Mike


Its a new charger, they don't have it on a Web site yet, not sure why. Call their phone number and they will surely try to sell it to you 

When I called to buy NG3, they really tried hard to sell me this new one, I declined because I had my mind set on NG3 and I usually resist pushy sales pitch. But later on someone Emailed me technical specs on this new PFC charger and I really liked it. Not enough to give up my NG3, but enough to consider it for next conversion.

Its main selling point is dual voltage 115V-230V , so if you really need opportunity charging, this one is a good choice.


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## Lordwacky (Jan 28, 2009)

Tesseract said:


> There are certain bizarre fault conditions and/or poor wiring practices that could make a non-isolated charger unsafe, but as long as your pack is isolated from the vehicle chassis (as it should be) AND you have a GFCI protected circuit (you will need a GFCI breaker - used for spas - to protect a 240V circuit) then it will be perfectly safe. If you are in the habit of touching one of the battery terminals while the pack is being charged and while standing on a damp floor (and yes, even concrete conducts current - "shockingly" well, actually... ) then you will get electrocuted, though. Just a head's up


 
I was planning on using a dedicated 220V GFCI protected curcuit for charging at home already. 

So as long as my pack isn't grounded to my chassis (which it definitly will not be) I'll be fine with a non Isolated charger. Thanks for clearing that up. 

Do I need to try to insulate the Charger chassis from the Car chassis when I mount it? I assume that the Manzanita Chassis would be bonded to the neutral or natural ground of the service panel, which would then in turn bond my car to the Neutral or natural ground of the service panel. I don't really have a problem with that. Unless my 12 volt system ground is tied to the car chassis as well (assuming I have an Isolated DC-DC converter). I could maybe see how that could be a problem if I was wanting use my 12 volt system for something while charging.

Are most DC-DC converters Isolated?

thanks
Mike


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## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

Lordwacky said:


> Do I need to try to insulate the Charger chassis from the Car chassis when I mount it?


Actually, bonding the charger to the chassis is good - this will connect your car to ground which can only be a good thing.



Lordwacky said:


> ...Unless my 12 volt system ground is tied to the car chassis as well (assuming I have an Isolated DC-DC converter). I could maybe see how that could be a problem if I was wanting use my 12 volt system for something while charging.


Nope - no problem with that whatsoever.




Lordwacky said:


> Are most DC-DC converters Isolated?


They OUGHT to be. I can't say for sure whether that is true or not. In general, though, if the input voltage is above 72V then it is likely the converter is isolated.


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## Lordwacky (Jan 28, 2009)

Awesome guys thanks for the tips, but we seem to have drifted off topic. 

Are the Manzanita and Zilvan really the only guys out there for LiFePo? What about Russco does anyone know anything about them?


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## tomofreno (Mar 3, 2009)

KTA sells the PFC 3000 for $1099.00. It has no input for a bms to supply a signal to shut it down due to high cell voltage. You can use the regbus input on the manzanita for this.


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## tomofreno (Mar 3, 2009)

Under the EV performance/highway distance survey thread here Dave Kois of Powered by DC reports getting 90+ mile range with a similar voltage 200Ah TS cell pack in a RAV4, which should be a bit heavier and have higher drag force than an mr2.


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