# Building a 3 phase controller (Maybe)



## yarross (Jan 7, 2009)

Improve power stage design, use planar DC bus, put closer modules, ddd snubbers and it shuld live much longer


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## Harold in CR (Sep 8, 2008)

Have you checked on the Ecomodders forum ?? mpaulholmes was working on a 3 phase controller experimental build, quite a while back ?? He was also trying to build 2 separate boards, one to control the power board with, so it didn't need upgrades to power a more powerful power board, if the owner wanted to upgrade to higher power, later on ?


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## tomofreno (Mar 3, 2009)

The kit looks promising if you are looking for a lengthy project where you get deeply into the software/firmware, and have the necessary background to take it on. Any chance you could purchase the needed components for your present controller from the company you bought it from? Probably easiest and cheapest, but maybe you are concerned you will just have the same problems over again, and yeah, I know you are not enamored of them, but always keep the end goal in mind. Another possibility might be to purchase another controller that will learn your motor parameters and "autotune" to it. Should have a detailed description of that procedure from the controller manufacturer before you purchase it. Seems the tradeoff will be money or time invested. Hope you find a good solution!


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## Weisheimer (May 11, 2009)

I think that you would be well advised to consider IPM modules today.
They will save a huge number of drive "head-aches" and they are not that much more expensive.
Eric Tischer used one in his build/mod of an existing 3 phase controller and has achieved nothing short of stunning results.
I think his thread is titled something like "Homemade 90 HP..."

BLDC has it's own issues, and you may be able to find an existing drive to modify in a similar fashion.

What controller were you using that failed?
What kind of failure did it experience?
Did your existing controller suit you with the exception of this new failure?
Perhaps it is a candidate for a make-over!


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

Thanks for the replies. At this point I am open to any and all suggestions.

The setup I had was a little underpowered but did get the job done with enough power to sustain 55 MPH even up gentle hills. The failure happened when cresting a rather steep hill at ~25 MPH. First the current limiter automatically cut out (which isn't unusual in itself since it happens all the time), but when I tried to reapply the pedal it didn't quite feel right. After turning onto a side street it became apparent that one phase was not working right. As it is, I can get the motor to spin but if it stops in the wrong position, it will not restart - this is how I was able to limp the car home. 

I had a failure before, which is well documented in my build thread (originated at a loose terminal screw on one of the IGBTs) and I was able to fix it that time but considering the marginal performance and reliability of the over all design, I am leaning toward trying to make something better even if I do salvage most of what I have.

The controller also had other drawbacks as it seemed to operate in a constant torque mode and did not have a very useful regenerative braking. I could still drive the car and was able to get used to it but it wasn't very drivable for some one not experienced with it. With all these issues I wasn't confident letting other people drive the car.

Even if I was able to get a new controller/driver logic board from the OEM, the tech support would be horrible if something should go wrong again. At least with a developers kit, there is some documentation to go on and even the possibility of getting some one on the phone that speaks english. Not to mention having a larger knowledge base to call upon if I use an off the shelf PLC. The controller was a purchase direct from mainland china. I would consider buying IGBTs from china but am reluctant to get finished assemblies like a controller board.

What is meant by "planar DC bus"?


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## Weisheimer (May 11, 2009)

I'll look at your build thread later tonight, as I am pressed for time at the moment.
I think I remember your thread about the controller issues, the screw was loose, and you had arcing that damaged a cap and such?
Planar DC bus...otherwise known as "laminated bus".
You have bus bars in your controller now, and so does the one shown in your pix above.
A laminated bus is plate material separated by an insulated (mylar) layer, one plate above the other.
It has a lot of advantages, but is more difficult for the DIY'er to implement.
Not impossible, but more difficult. Probably best done if you have CAD and waterjet services available.

Cheers
Mark


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

Ok, I have read about laminated bus bars. APS mentions that in some of their product descriptions.

CAD is part of my line of work and our shop does have a CNC machine that could probably do the cutting out of a copper plate if it came to that. Not as good as waterjet cutting but we have been able to cut aluminum in this manner. It would make for a pretty high end product if we could pull that off... 

An arc happened right at the terminal for the IGBT. A snubber was reduced to molten goo, the outside case of the IGBT was burned and some parts on the driver board also had to be replaced before it worked again for me.

I wouldn't worry too much about my build thread since its very long. If you have specific questions I can just answer it here if that would be easier.

Some one suggested this motor developer board:

http://www.microchip.com/stellent/idcplg?IdcService=SS_GET_PAGE&nodeId=1406&dDocName=en537020

I'm not sure if that can run an external power stage but I still need to do some more reading. Price is fairly decent though.

*sight* and on that note, I have to head back out to build another job for tomorrow.


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## bga (May 25, 2009)

Hi David,
This sounds like my project.

The battery is 160 x 40AH TS cells (512V)
Charger is 2 x Elcon 288V
Motor is a 18.5KW ABB 4Pole, rewounbd for 220V delta operation

I'm using a DSPIC30F6010 controller on a custom board based on the Microchip MCDM? board.
I have sourced the following high power components:
IGBTs 300A/1200V (CM300DY-24A) from Powerex.
Gate drivers also from Powerex.
Film capactors from EACO capacitor, China (6 x 390uf/900volt/50A RMS)
Better then electrolytics because of exremelylow ESR, the above is about 500 microohms. I expect the overal ripple to be similar owing to the lower capacitance.

IGBT snbbers 2uF/1000V per IGBT, also from EACO.

The pics in this thread and its links from the Circuit Cellar project described about 2007. it is also known as the Camosun College - EV Drive team

I analysed their source code and it looks like almost all of the variation is in the PC interface module, the main body is virtually identical to the Microchip reference application. There is no EV logic or setting management stuff in the code.

The DSPIC30F6010A has a good amount of code space and speed beyond that needed for the 3PH PWM generator, so there shouldn't be any big problems in getting an EV application to work nicely. About 1/2? of the code space and 1/3 of the clock cycles are used.


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## Weisheimer (May 11, 2009)

I finally understood your present controller after reading your posts in the AVEA forum.
I almost didn't even follow that link because it seemed to be about formula data!

The primary control is an MC33035 which is fine, but it is not a programmable controller, per se.
You might be able to increase performance by tuning the feedback circuits.
I suspect that solution will not bring you the results and control that you really want to have.

The Microchip route has a BLDC library, and that would appear to be a preferred solution.
I still suggest that you consider the IPM module route, with built in drivers and temp sensing.
Perhaps:
http://www.pwrx.com/Result.aspx?q=PM300CL1A060
It can be had for appx US$400.00

BGA has already suggested using Metalized Poly caps (on the DC bus) that are well suited to handling the ripple current.
I didn't see a price for the Eacon, but consider this from Digi-key:
http://search.digikey.com/scripts/DkSearch/dksus.dll?Detail&name=478-5823-ND
A bit spendy, but not compared to your already sizable investment in batteries!
You would only need one!

BGA, how far along are you on your design at this point? It looks interesting.

Mark


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## peggus (Feb 18, 2008)

You might be interested in the tumanako open source inverter project:

http://sourceforge.net/projects/tumanako/

It is based on an stm32 arm cortex processor, the development board is only $200 and there are open source tool-chains for it.


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

I already have data sheets printed off for the motorolla MC33035 IC and did some reading on that a while back. The main board in my current setup does have what I believe are trim pots on each of the 3 main resistor adjusted feedbacks to the microchip, but I never got the chance to investigate further since I wanted to have some proper meters in the car before I took the risk of adjusting anything.

One thing I was never able to verify is if the chip is capable of offering an effective regenerative braking. I think the three adjustments were for the acceleration, deceleration, and peak current limit. In theory the deceleration constant could affect regen, but the datasheet also mentioned the chip was designed to "coast" the motor if rotor speed exceeded the commanded speed, and the actual brake switch could be dangerous since it's basically uncontrolled and amounts to shorting out the motor.

What's strange is I did observe a fairly powerful electric braking effect when the motor was spun above the normal operating range from driving downhill in a low gear. Although again, I had no way to know if power was really going back into the battery in that instance. I guess I'll never know It felt like hitting a speed governor.

I've seen that line of powerex IPMs and they are very nice. Integrating the gate drive into the IGBT sounds like a great way to simplify everything and improve reliability. Not to mention space savings. 300 amps is a bit low for what I need (currently have 400amp modules) but $400 is a decent price for what it is. Its already getting close to what I would spend on external gate drivers that would be needed for rebuilding my existing setup.....


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## DawidvC (Feb 14, 2010)

David, if you wish to use a PIC development board, I would suggest using the dsPICDEM MC1, and using their BLDC library with that board. This should interface nicely with the driver board you indicated, or with an IPM setup.

I hope you get your ev up and running quickly. Let us know how it goes.

Regards
Dawid


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## yarross (Jan 7, 2009)

david85 said:


> One thing I was never able to verify is if the chip is capable of offering an effective regenerative braking. I think the three adjustments were for the acceleration, deceleration, and peak current limit. In theory the deceleration constant could affect regen, but the datasheet also mentioned the chip was designed to "coast" the motor if rotor speed exceeded the commanded speed, and the actual brake switch could be dangerous since it's basically uncontrolled and amounts to shorting out the motor.


DS conclusion is correct, and this is not a regenerative braking. After turning on lower transistors, the current circulates through the motor and transistors, dissipating power in their resistances. Fortunately, most controllers allow external PWM control (as a last resort, you can apply APWM directly to brake input pin), and this should allow regeneration: when transistors are on, circulating current rises and stores energy in motor phases leakage inductances, then after switching off, that energy discharges through aniparallel diodes to DC bus.



david85 said:


> What's strange is I did observe a fairly powerful electric braking effect when the motor was spun above the normal operating range from driving downhill in a low gear.


This is perfectly normal for speeds beyond base speed. BEMF has exceded DC bus voltage and regenerative current has flowed through antiparallel diodes even in the case the transistors have been completely switched off.
See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brushless_DC_electric_motor#Kv_rating



david85 said:


> Although again, I had no way to know if power was really going back into the battery in that instance. I guess I'll never know It felt like hitting a speed governor.


It was a real regenerative current. Uncontrolled, so it might be dangerous for your controller.


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## Weisheimer (May 11, 2009)

david85 said:


> ...I've seen that line of powerex IPMs and they are very nice. Integrating the gate drive into the IGBT sounds like a great way to simplify everything and improve reliability. Not to mention space savings. 300 amps is a bit low for what I need (currently have 400amp modules) but $400 is a decent price for what it is. Its already getting close to what I would spend on external gate drivers that would be needed for rebuilding my existing setup.....


David,

There are other choices for amperage. The sister module is 450 amps and runs about US$700 as I recall.
You would probably want to consider using liquid cooling with a chill plate, pump, and radiator regardless of which module you used.

You do have 400 amp rated modules in your existing controller.
Do you REALLY get anywhere near that current through them though?
I suspect not. 
And you do have a BLDC motor with magnets inside too, don't you?
Be careful not to over-amp the motor and risk losing some of the magnetism.
You probably can't totally demagnatize them, but you can permanently reduce it and lose some level of performance.

Do you have, or have access to, test gear such as an o'scope and peak reading current probe?

All of that considered, it could be a great project to explore.

Mark


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

Weisheimer said:


> David,
> 
> There are other choices for amperage. The sister module is 450 amps and runs about US$700 as I recall.


Hmm........



Weisheimer said:


> You would probably want to consider using liquid cooling with a chill plate, pump, and radiator regardless of which module you used.


I was already thinking to do that since I can easily make an aluminum liquid cooling setup in our shop.



Weisheimer said:


> You do have 400 amp rated modules in your existing controller.
> Do you REALLY get anywhere near that current through them though?
> I suspect not.


You are very likely correct. The car struggled to reach 65 MPH and I highly doubt it really needs 50Hp to sustain that speed. I wonder if I was getting around on as little as 20 kw of power? Eventually I should be able to do some comparisons once its running again and I have working meters. Its one of a few questions that kept me up at night.

Although I heard from one source that IGBTs should not be run more than about half their rated capacity so 200 amps would be the safe limit on a 400 amp module. Does that sound right to you?? The infineon spec sheet for the FF400R06KE3 IGBTs states a peak current of 800amps for 1ms. I'm not sure if that means all of the 400 amp rating is safe to use even with adequate snubber protection.

http://www.cntongling.com/guowai/pdf/ff400r06ke3.pdf



Weisheimer said:


> And you do have a BLDC motor with magnets inside too, don't you?
> Be careful not to over-amp the motor and risk losing some of the magnetism.
> You probably can't totally demagnatize them, but you can permanently reduce it and lose some level of performance.


How do I know if it gets over amped? It never overheated, but I realize thats not much to go on.



Weisheimer said:


> Do you have, or have access to, test gear such as an o'scope and peak reading current probe?


haha, no - and no. But if I need to I will get it. I'm in too deep to back out now so I might as well start looking for the tools.



Weisheimer said:


> All of that considered, it could be a great project to explore.
> 
> Mark


I agree, but after all thats happened, there doesn't seem to be much choice.
Thanks for your input, it helps a lot.


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

Its been a few days of reading bits and pieces of various datasheets in my spare time and I'm now 90% sold on getting the dsPICDEM MC1 board:

http://www.microchip.com/stellent/idcplg?IdcService=SS_GET_PAGE&nodeId=1406&dDocName=en023540

Seems to have everything I could ever want and then some including a brake chopper. 

I'm still mulling over what to do about the power stage though. The integrated IPM route is tempting but I would feel bad not to use the IGBTs I have considering the cost of an upgrade.

Of course starting a controller from scratch would allow me to make something much cleaner and more compact. Hopefully more reliable too. 

Thinking more about what Weisheimer for power rating of my current controller also has me mulling over if I really need more than 400amp rated units. As it is the car was underpowered but drivable and my best guess is it wasn't putting more than 20kw to the motor. Comparing to other conversions, that power seems about right for a car of this size and weight to sustain reasonable highway speeds. Realistically, my battery pack shouldn't be asked to deliver more than 30kw constant anyway due to the 1C continuous rating (200A cells x 156 system volts = 31.2kw). Peak is 5C for 15 seconds but I'll probably never see that considering the size of controller and motor needed for that. I wonder if 40kw really would be enough.....

Twice the power of what I had would probably come close to breaking traction and make for adequate power. Maybe I can take it snow boarding someday after all..... (a few 12% hills to face on the mountain)

So what do you guys think about the IGBT rating verses the actual controller output? What sort of safety net should there be?


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## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

david85 said:


> So what do you guys think about the IGBT rating verses the actual controller output? What sort of safety net should there be?


Relying on rules like "derate current by 50%" will end up costing you a lot of money with IGBT modules. I generally assume that whatever current rating is given at a realistic case temp (like 70-80C) is an attainable maximum with good heatsinking (e.g. - liquid cooling).

In that eupec module's datasheet they claim a rating of 400A at a case temp of 70C and a junction temp of 175C. Now, folks, you CAN run these chips up to 175C, but you really SHOULDN'T. They won't withstand too many thermal cycles that extreme (causes the die-attach solder to crack). Anyway, for a first pass approximation just multiply Ic by Vce[sat] by Rtheta[j-c] to get the rise in case temp at that current... E.g. - 400 x 1.6 x .012 = 76.8C rise, so if ambient is 25C then the case will be at 101.8C. That's a tad higher than the 70C spec but this is just a first pass approximation. The actual conduction losses are split between the IGBT and FWD according to "modulation depth" while the FWD is extra lucky because all 6 diodes in a 3ph. inverter share the freewheeling current (not evenly, though!).

If you bother to calculate the switching and conduction losses more accurately, what you typically find with IGBT modules is that you can run at somewhere between 65% and 80% of the current rating given for the case temp of 70-80C. This assumes a reasonable sized heatsink and derating current as temp rises.

Here's a good paper by Infineon on calculating the losses more accurately: http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sour...iQQXT3vOQ&sig2=JyyBlmepH3aelDawSSTJyg&cad=rja


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

You are telling me what I want to hear, thanks!

I never measured temperature direct from the source on the controller but I found that no matter how hard I was able to run the car, the cooling fans never came on unless it was a warm or hot summer day. During a heat wave, they came on just from being switched on and parked in the sun......

I think the fan cycling switch was set for 30C but I'd have to double check that.

Regarding temperature, the hybrid kits by infineon that I linked to earlier claim to be able to run at ICE coolant temperature in order to share the same cooling package. It made me wonder if an inverter like this can be used for heating the interior of the car but I wonder how wise it would be to have the controller that warm all the time. It's tempting because a separate heater does limit an EV's range and it would be a way to increase overall efficiency without sacrificing comfort. I'm getting ahead of myself though.

Either way, I am looking at a water cooled heat sink and a cooler up front in the car.


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

Well, I found that digikey does list a decent price for PM450CLA060 and PM600CLA060 IPMs but the availability is 6 months!

http://parts.digikey.com/1/parts/1637416-mod-ipm-l-ser-6pac-600v-450a-pm450cla060.html
http://search.digikey.com/scripts/D...k=hp_go_button&KeyWords=PM600CLA060&x=28&y=21

Found another source that has ~50 in stock but they want close to one grand for it - heck no....

Going to keep looking because if I can get a 400 or 600 amp setup for those prices, I would be very tempted to go that route.


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

david85 said:


> Well, I found that digikey does list a decent price for PM450CLA060 and PM600CLA060 IPMs but the availability is 6 months!
> 
> http://parts.digikey.com/1/parts/1637416-mod-ipm-l-ser-6pac-600v-450a-pm450cla060.html
> http://search.digikey.com/scripts/D...k=hp_go_button&KeyWords=PM600CLA060&x=28&y=21
> ...


Hi david85,

I have been keeping an eye on this thread. And just now noticed this: http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showthread.php?t=52133 

I never saw one of these 6-pack modules before. And it is not an exact fit for you at 300A, 1200V and don't know what he would want for them, and if you can actually use them or not, and if used ones would be good in the long run. Yeah, a lot of _ands_.

But my point is: When starting out building your first inverter, figure you're going to blow it up, at least once. Ask me how I know.  So you might want to blow up a few cheap modules before spending the big bucks. Even etischer blew up his first module, IIRC.

I have one of those PowerEx 6-packs I have been meaning to build up into an induction motor inverter for a while now. So I'd like to see you do it to get some ideas for the heat plate, power supply and logic interface.

Anyway, good luck.

major


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

Hi Major,

Yes, I seem to have a rep for blowing things up
I remember Etitcher's video when the power went out in his house
On the upside, I finally have a grasp for how he put his together.

I've started looking off shore to try and source the IGBTs I would need. Now that Escrow is becoming more popular in places like china, it takes some of the edge off importing items from there. It all depends on what sort of prices I can scare up. When I replaced the single IGBT last time I was quoted $100USD while most american sources were often more than twice that.

Making a watercooled heat sink shouldn't be too big a deal. For the hybridkit setup that infineon uses (linked in my opening post), they simply take an aluminum billet and perform a pocketing operation, cut an O ring track around the perimeter, and drill/tap holes to attach a cap plate underneath. We could do all of that with our CNC, but the O ring would be a problem to make. A simple gasket would do the trick, but I'm tempted to weld the backing plate on along with some hose fittings to keep things simple and more reliable since leaks would be much less likely. Last thing I need is coolant getting into the controller!

If warping from the weld becomes a problem, I can have the top surfaced to restore flatness but I don't think it will move enough to matter.


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## Weisheimer (May 11, 2009)

I'm not sure if they have released the 600 amp module to distributors yet.
There are other sources for the IGBT that won't be retail.
The manufacturer is a good place to start. They'll refer you to a stocking rep who will fill your order promptly.
The only reason to source a JP/EU/US device is that you will know exactly what you are getting and you can count on some assistance from a field rep or their design assistance team. 
Yes, it does cost a bit more, but it may be worth MORE than the difference.

If you want to experiment using a smaller 6 pack, you can get ~100 amp versions of the 6 pack for under US$100 on e-bay.

And regarding an earlier post about how to know if the magnets have lost any capacity.
First, I doubt that your original controller would allow any excess current. It seemed to go the other way!
The only way to know would be to dyno test the motor to see if it could meet the original specs.
My first thought is that it is fine at the moment, but do be careful when you design/build your controller that you have hardware current limiting.

RE: the O-ring, do it the other way around. Source the O-ring, and then mill the channel.


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

Weisheimer said:


> RE: the O-ring, do it the other way around. Source the O-ring, and then mill the channel.


Just buy an O-ring kit and make your own to fit. Done it myself a number of times. I think McMasterCarr sells them. Cut to length and glue ends together.


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## Salty9 (Jul 13, 2009)

How about machining matching grooves and using silicone to form the o-rings in place. You would, of course, want to carefully select the the silicone to match the temperature expected.


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

david85 said:


> If warping from the weld becomes a problem, I can have the top surfaced to restore flatness but I don't think it will move enough to matter.












Is the module baseplate intended to mount directly to this and seal the O-ring or is there another coverplate?


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

Weisheimer said:


> I'm not sure if they have released the 600 amp module to distributors yet.
> There are other sources for the IGBT that won't be retail.
> The manufacturer is a good place to start. They'll refer you to a stocking rep who will fill your order promptly.
> The only reason to source a JP/EU/US device is that you will know exactly what you are getting and you can count on some assistance from a field rep or their design assistance team.
> ...


I've already tried contacting powerex to ask about their 450amp version and so far no reply. Definitly planning to have current limiting in there. My plan is to start out low (very low) and gradually ramp things up as I dial everything in.



major said:


> Just buy an O-ring kit and make your own to fit. Done it myself a number of times. I think McMasterCarr sells them. Cut to length and glue ends together.


I heard about those kits but though they were discontinued. That would work though.



Salty9 said:


> How about machining matching grooves and using silicone to form the o-rings in place. You would, of course, want to carefully select the the silicone to match the temperature expected.


Viton would do the trick since it can be had in 400F temperature rating but I'm not sure if it can be guled. I do however have access to a local hydraulics supplier that has any shape and size you could imagine including larger sizes.

I get the feeling you guys like the idea of an O ring lol. I figure it would complicate things but we could do it.


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

major said:


> Is the module baseplate intended to mount directly to this and seal the O-ring or is there another coverplate?


They don't seem to explain that too clearly, but I think we are looking at the bottom in that photo^.

Here are some views of the assembled setup. You are probably right about it needing to be bolted down to a solid flat plate. Seems like a waste to me since it would have to be a fairly thick hunk of metal to avoid the risk of that O ring seal failing.


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## zaxxon (Jul 11, 2009)

david85 said:


> They don't seem to explain that too clearly, but I think we are looking at the bottom in that photo^.
> 
> Here are some views of the assembled setup. You are probably right about it needing to be bolted down to a solid flat plate. Seems like a waste to me since it would have to be a fairly thick hunk of metal to avoid the risk of that O ring seal failing.


I looked at this Hybrid Kit also. Got quotes. Dropped, for now, when I found out how much the software development environment cost to modify demo code to run ACIM.

Pin fins are integral to the IGBT module heat sink. http://www.infineon.com/dgdl/DS_FS8...47094&fileId=db3a304320d39d590121b0581fc82d8d


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## zaxxon (Jul 11, 2009)

david85 said:


> Well, I found that digikey does list a decent price for PM450CLA060 and PM600CLA060 IPMs but the availability is 6 months!
> 
> http://parts.digikey.com/1/parts/1637416-mod-ipm-l-ser-6pac-600v-450a-pm450cla060.html
> http://search.digikey.com/scripts/D...k=hp_go_button&KeyWords=PM600CLA060&x=28&y=21
> ...


You can buy at PowerX web site for $670 after you register.


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

zaxxon said:


> Pin fins are integral to the IGBT module heat sink. http://www.infineon.com/dgdl/DS_FS8...47094&fileId=db3a304320d39d590121b0581fc82d8d


That's what I thought. The module mounts directly to that cold plate and the fluid contacts the module baseplate directly. Pretty cool


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

zaxxon said:


> I looked at this Hybrid Kit also. Got quotes. Dropped, for now, when I found out how much the software development environment cost to modify demo code to run ACIM.
> 
> Pin fins are integral to the IGBT module heat sink. http://www.infineon.com/dgdl/DS_FS8...47094&fileId=db3a304320d39d590121b0581fc82d8d


That makes sense, thanks for the link. So its direct water against the backing plate of the IGBT module itself. No extra thermal barrier to worry about and no heat sink compound. 



zaxxon said:


> You can buy at PowerX web site for $670 after you register.


Registered a few days ago.

Seems I have to be logged off for the cart option to be on, then log back in when I click on "add to cart" - strange. Logged on shows only the RFQ option??

Then I get a message saying they cannot allow online sales outside the USA or canada - but I am in canada LOL! Probably just have to contact them directly.

At any rate, I *seem* to have at least one source for the 450 amp IPM for $673USD They claim to have 343 of them in stock.


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## zaxxon (Jul 11, 2009)

david85 said:


> That makes sense, thanks for the link. So its direct water against the backing plate of the IGBT module itself. No extra thermal barrier to worry about and no heat sink compound.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yes, a well engineered cooling approach. I really wanted it but the total development costs were too high for me.

I have not completely given up using the Prius Inverter yet. But due to frustration and maybe I jumped too soon, so I would not be current restricted, I purchased the 450A 600V from the PowereX site three weeks back. It and driver card were in stock.


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

zaxxon said:


> Yes, a well engineered cooling approach. I really wanted it but the total development costs were too high for me.
> 
> I have not completely given up using the Prius Inverter yet. But due to frustration and maybe I jumped too soon, so I would not be current restricted, I purchased the 450A 600V from the PowereX site three weeks back. It and driver card were in stock.


It needs a driver card? I thought the IPMs are self contained?

Can you elaborate?


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

david85 said:


> It needs a driver card? I thought the IPMs are self contained?


I think he is talking about this http://www.pwrx.com/pwrx/docs/bp6a_application_note.pdf From that: 



> *Description: The BP6A is a complete isolated interface circuit for high power six pack L-Series IPMs. This circuit provides opto-coupled isolation for control signals and isolated power supplies for the IPM’s built-in gate drive and protection circuits. The isolated interface helps to simplify prototype development and minimize design time by allowing direct connection of the IPM to logic level control circuits.*


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## tomofreno (Mar 3, 2009)

> but the O ring would be a problem to make.


 Why is that? The CNC should do it handily, and you can get dimensioned groove cross sections from o-ring manufacturers like Parker.


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

major said:


> I think he is talking about this http://www.pwrx.com/pwrx/docs/bp6a_application_note.pdf From that:


I think I get it now. The IPMs don't come with opto isolation and since the MC1 developer board doesn't either....
That price keeps creeping up.



tomofreno said:


> Why is that? The CNC should do it handily, and you can get dimensioned groove cross sections from o-ring manufacturers like Parker.


A few others pointed that out too and I've since changed my mind. O-ringed setup would allow water right against the backing plate of the IGBT module so even if it is more work, its worth doing.

Only thing I wasn't quite sure of is what sort of O rings were available but everyone here says they are out there or can be made from scratch (I heard about this a long time ago but though it wasn't offered anymore) so that doesn't seem to be an issue.


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## zaxxon (Jul 11, 2009)

david85 said:


> It needs a driver card? I thought the IPMs are self contained?
> 
> Can you elaborate?


Major is correct. That link shows the development driver card BP6A-L used to isolate the IPM's power circuits from the low level controller logic. The card also provides isolated 15V power to the built-in IPM gate drive and current protection circuits. The isolation is needed because the high side drive circuits are referenced to the emitters of the IGBTs which is at the high side voltage when switched on. The individual ones used on the low side are used to address ground balance issues from the high pulse currents.

The development driver card is unpopulated. It comes with the six isolation dc to dc conveters. You have to purchase all other parts and install. The card kit cost $249


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

I was wondering about the issue of isolated power supplies for the gates and drivers. I guess that solves it. It would also slightly reduce the chances of it blowing up on the first try.


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## Weisheimer (May 11, 2009)

It seems price creep is like RUST. It never sleeps.

The driver board would be handy to use while you are developing the controller.
You'd probably end up making a board made with the controller and all of the related parts on it when you are done.
It would be a much safer and reliable that way as you won't want spaghetti wiring in your daily driver.



Take a look at this link. They have a wide range of info from different Manufacturers, including Microchip, Infineon and Powerex.

http://www.element-14.com/community/docs/DOC-16827

Do remember though, that the largest use of BLDC controllers is in the fans that cool your pc, so there are more references to low power than to high power.

My job includes a fair bit of travel. I was in your area for 7 weeks earlier this year for Olympics.
I try to visit the EV groups whenever I am in a new town, and was able to get to a couple of the Vancouver EV meetings.
It was interesting and quite a large group. One of the gentlemen had just placed his pre-order for a Tesla model S.


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

Campbell River isn't exactly on the main routes to or from vancouver but it would be interesting to meet face to face if you ever are in the area. I met some really nice members of the AEVA forums when I was visiting near Brisbane last year.

Honestly, considering what has been spent on the car to date, it isn't really *that* much more. I'm just getting a little cold feet that I might not get it right the first time and the cost will creep even more. Then again, it still won't cost as much as an off the shelf controller.

From what you guys are telling me, some of you are planning to make something along these lines but to date, no one has actually done it. I would feel better if some one like me wasn't the first to attempt it.

I should be able to reuse the DC/DC converters from my current controller to run the logic board. Can you give me any reason not to reuse the capacitors and snubbers I already have?


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## Weisheimer (May 11, 2009)

You can re-use some of your parts. The caps would probably be fine.
The DC-DC converters were too blurry for me to make out, but if you budgeted $20 each for new ones, you wouldn't be far off.
You can build up that driver board for less than the cost of buying the Powerex kit.
It is just handy and is already well laid out. The only "must use this component" that I see is the Hirose connector.

What about using an existing controller and modifying it ala Eric Tischer's "Amp it UP!" method.
His background is in industrial control and he might even have a suggestion if you asked.
Perhaps a similar approach using an existing new BLDC controller that has all of the programmable parameters at your disposal.
The current measuring and power module are the main hardware changes, and that would be a faster path (and perhaps cheaper) than starting from scratch.

I got back from India 3 weeks ago, so "in your area" is a relative term.
I see that you are towards the north end of the island. The Sea Plane base was about a 3 minute stroll out of our door.
I did have a chance to have lunch with Roger Stockton and he recommended a visit to CANEV.
My project got busy, and we worked day and night, so I didn't get there.


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## yarross (Jan 7, 2009)

Weisheimer said:


> What about using an existing controller and modifying it ala Eric Tischer's "Amp it UP!" method.


Fast track to get a working device, but has some drawbacks:
* An inverter is not an AC controller, only most important part of it. It has to be supplemented with EV-related functions (contactor control, ignition switch engage procedures etc).
* Its control power is supplied from DC bus (should be desirably from vehicle 12V).
* Acceptable DC bus voltage range is somewhat limited.
* It's not automotive grade, requires environmental control. Harder to put in engine compartment.


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

Weisheimer, sounds like a nice career. Let me know next time you are in the area.

Eric did a great job with his controller but I wouldn't even know where to start when it comes to looking for a BLDC controller to make an amplifier module for.

And therein lies the problem since the main cost is still in the power stage. The MCI board and the powerex BP6A-L board would come to $550USD before shipping and taxes. Is there a BLDC motor controller complete with opto isolation to be found in that price range? Not all of them are set up for regen either. That puts things over $1200 but its still less than I spent on what I have now.

Reliability is certainly very high on my priority list. I drove this car 50 km from home a few times out where there was no cell phone reception. It was just my luck that when the controller finally did act up again, it was in town and could still be limped home.

Chances are there will be other nickel and dime expenses as time goes on. For any exposed electrical connnectors, I'm thinking to use these: 
http://www.weatherpack.com/


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

Just got a reply from powerex. The 600 amp IPMs are on a 24 week lead time and I was referred to their distributor list for a formal quote. I could probably guess how much it would cost (~$850) but the lead time alone is a deal breaker so 450 amp it is.


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## Anaerin (Feb 4, 2009)

You might want to get in touch with Paul and Sabrina (Of Open ReVolt fame), as he's working on a 3-phase system too: http://ecomodder.com/forum/showthre...eap-3-phase-inverter-ac-controller-10839.html

He's recently got it spinning a 1/3HP motor as a testbed, though at the moment I believe he's got the software working in V/Hz mode while he gets the hardware sorted:


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## zaxxon (Jul 11, 2009)

david85 said:


> Reliability is certainly very high on my priority list. I drove this car 50 km from home a few times out where there was no cell phone reception. It was just my luck that when the controller finally did act up again, it was in town and could still be limped home.


If your primary goal is to get the car back on the road soon, it seems it will be much easier to get what you have working more reliable compared to developing something new and less familiar. If you’re like me and have limited experience working with microcontrollers and their development environment and software, the MC33035 based unit will be much easier to deal with. After you get the car going you can use your spare time ) to develop your dream controller.


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

I'm not completely ruling out repairing my controller yet, but at the same time, the controller I have can't be safely set up for regen so even if it can be made reliable, it will never be what I want.


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## justn (Nov 25, 2010)

Hi guys

I have mostly built my own inverter using Semikron IGBTs and a simple driver. I used my own DSP platform with some modifications for current measurements, rotary encoder interfacing, PWM gate signal outputs and interfacing via RS232 for testing / control via a laptop.

Check out my thread for more info: 

http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showthread.php?p=213483#post213483


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

Got a reply from digikey to my inquiry on lead times for the IPM and interface card. I asked them to go ahead with what she called a 'delivery information request'. I'm not expecting much but since powerex does list a few hundred of them in stock I figured there is a chance of getting it sooner through digikey which would save me a couple hundred.

I will also try contacting Powerex's distributors to see what scares up.

Looks like an interesting project, justn.


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

A few updates to report.

I ended up contacting APS to find out what they want for their 3 phase driver board. Nearly $500 each and minimum order of 10 - not going to happen. So that (as I suspected) is not an option, but to their credit, they did get back to me......eventually.

Still no reply from digikey on those IGBT lead times but I am not hoping for much.

I did get a reply from powerex on how to use their IPMs but it wasn't anything that I didn't already know. They just told me to pay close attention to the thermal management (use a big eff-ing heat sink), and watch out for voltage spikes in the DC bus. Laminated bus bars were suggested but snubbers and a properly sized capacitor bank should also work.

*And more generally*

I got a lot more feedback from this thread than I was expecting. Lots of you contacted me by PM to offer help and advice and I wanted to thank you for the encouragement.

If anyone wants to jump in here and carry on the conversation when I am not around consider this as an open invitation to "hijack" the thread if it means furthering the idea.

I've just been contacted this evening by a member that is having problems with the source code for a controller he is working on using (I think) the same motor developer board that we were all thinking around.

So far that makes nearly half a dozen active members here that all seem to be planning the same basic idea.

Has anyone actually pulled this off yet? If not, would you more knowledgeable folks be willing to pitch in with the setup and programming advice if some one else has the time to assemble the controller?


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## bart_dood (Sep 2, 2010)

Hi David,

This is the board I purchased for my motor control:

http://www.microchip.com/stellent/idcplg?IdcService=SS_GET_PAGE&nodeId=1406&dDocName=en537020

And I know it will work for this if programmed correctly (but at this point I am getting nowhere fast trying to figure it out), however I really like the idea of using some kind of open source microcontroller system to develop the motor software on, the reason being the cost is sooo cheap and it can leverage so many hobbyists and DIYers out there. I think with the right code this board would be ideal for this application:

http://leaflabs.com/devices/maple/

Its only $50, is compatible with the arduino breadboards etc, uses a free open source compiler which is virtually the same as arduino but has a 72Mhz processor with about 90MIPS of power which should be more than enough for motor control even with high level inefficient coding etc.

I think with enough folks working on this we could get this working....anyone like to chime in??

chris


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## atbrandt (Sep 30, 2010)

Have you checked out http://open-bldc.org/ ?

I'm not sure it fits the purpose, but it's open source. I've been talking to the developer and understand it can be made to work for my Electric Motorcycle project. I think currently the project is BLDC only, but Sine drive is on the roadmap. It would be great if a big power stage could be developed for it. The hardware for this project is called clogic and will be available to buy beginning next year.

For my purpose (BLDC) it would need also need to work with hall sensors. Is that also required for a 3 phase controller?

I'm no electronics engineer, so forgive me if this project is not really an option. I just think it would be great if some good open source and affordable options were in a stage where they could be used for all the different projects out there. The knowhow seems to be available, people are building custom designs...


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## bart_dood (Sep 2, 2010)

atbrandt said:


> Have you checked out http://open-bldc.org/ ?
> 
> I'm not sure it fits the purpose, but it's open source. I've been talking to the developer and understand it can be made to work for my Electric Motorcycle project. I think currently the project is BLDC only, but Sine drive is on the roadmap. It would be great if a big power stage could be developed for it. The hardware for this project is called clogic and will be available to buy beginning next year.
> 
> ...


I thought I had a breakthrough the other night when I started to examine some BLDC FOV labview code I found on the internet. Labview is nice to reverse engineer because its so visual. I was translating the labview directly into C library files that would run on that $50 leaflabs maple. 
However I ran into a major problem and that is theta, the angle of the motor. 
In the microchip app theta is calculated from back emf which is nice but the labview code I had didn't have this feature which meant it would be tough to implement it.

I have been looking again at modifying the microchip code and now I've concentrated on it some more it is starting to become clearer. I'm pretty confident I can make all the changes necessary to do what I want, it might take me 2-3 months but thats ok.

It still would be nice to translate the microchip finished app over to the maple, a $50 BLDC open source controller would be awesome...


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

Bart, how are you doing with your programming?


Well guys, I going to start ordering the parts. Might do a separate thread to be a litte better organized with only the parts I'll be using.
Right now I am waiting for Powerex's rep to get back to me on that 450 amp module and the isolated card needed to power the IPM.


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## bart_dood (Sep 2, 2010)

david85 said:


> Bart, how are you doing with your programming?
> 
> 
> Well guys, I going to start ordering the parts. Might do a separate thread to be a litte better organized with only the parts I'll be using.
> Right now I am waiting for Powerex's rep to get back to me on that 450 amp module and the isolated card needed to power the IPM.


I am doing quite well. The microchip app seems quite straightforward to modify, I bought a programmer so I can experiment with my modified code. It still make take me 2 months to get everything finished but I think its only a matter of time when I have this code running just as I want it.


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

You had to get a specific programmer for it? I thought it has a PC interface?


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## bart_dood (Sep 2, 2010)

david85 said:


> You had to get a specific programmer for it? I thought it has a PC interface?


No you have to buy a microchip programmer/debugger to flash new code on the chip.
My progress has ground to a halt, I overlooked some driving conditions that would have thrown off my code.

Basically the code uses back EMF for position sensing, if you were driving along and took your foot off the gas completely and pushed in the clutch to change gear, the motor would keep spinning a while and when you pressed on the gas again after changing gears the system would be lost.

With no driving power on the motor there is no back emf and hence it loses reference. I'm starting from scratch again and I think I'll have to use the hall sensors in the motor to calculate velocity and position. This adds more complexity.


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## peggus (Feb 18, 2008)

You have a perm magnet motor, as long as it is spinning you should have measurable back emf. Of course you have the same issue at standstill, so you still need the position sensors.






bart_dood said:


> No you have to buy a microchip programmer/debugger to flash new code on the chip.
> My progress has ground to a halt, I overlooked some driving conditions that would have thrown off my code.
> 
> Basically the code uses back EMF for position sensing, if you were driving along and took your foot off the gas completely and pushed in the clutch to change gear, the motor would keep spinning a while and when you pressed on the gas again after changing gears the system would be lost.
> ...


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

I've secured a quote from Richardson Electronics for the IGBT module and interface card. Comes to a little over $800CAD before shipping which is not too bad (Now waiting on a shipping quote). The card is non stock and will be delayed for another 1-2 weeks but all things considered, I won't complain.

Turns out the online ordering feature at Powerex's website no longer works for canadians due to more stringent export regulations. I would have been required to fill out some documents to declare my application so the tranaction could be processed legally at their end. Maybe they (government) want to make sure I am not trying to build ballistic missle guidance systems

Americans should still be able to order through the website though.

Considering the extra hassle and slightly higher list price, I will try to get it through Richardson. Special thanks to the sales rep at Powerex for giving me a heads up on them.

Once I am sure I can get these two key components, I can turn my attention to other parts.


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## bart_dood (Sep 2, 2010)

peggus said:


> You have a perm magnet motor, as long as it is spinning you should have measurable back emf. Of course you have the same issue at standstill, so you still need the position sensors.


I've been plugging away on this, I thought I had a major breakthru as I found a canadian university project PDF on an EV that used a very similar uC as me.
I searched and downloaded all the project files included the C code.

However their app is for a ACIM and uses an indexer on the motor.

I'm back to doing my own mods on the code again, but I'm still hopeful I can get it done.
We are interviewing for an EE with code exp at work and I'm sure to be able to get some help with it!


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