# Alfa Romeo 156 Conversion



## gemmuj (Feb 22, 2008)

Hi Guys,

I have started my conversion. I'm soo happy. This is going to be amazing. I've got something special planned for the end of the project.  

I am using an Alfa Romeo 156. This is because this is an amazingly good looking car, with amazing curves and just a beautiful shape. Also, it has a full, black leather interior and looks WOW . 

It used to have a 2.5ltr V6 24v engine. This was a beast of an engine. Pictures are attached.


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## Dalardan (Jul 4, 2008)

Pretty nice looking car. Hope you'll have fun converting it!

Dalardan


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## gemmuj (Feb 22, 2008)

Star Date: 20th July, 2009 - Based at an unknown location (London, England). 

Today I removed the engine, fuel tank, fuel line, exhaust system, and all the other crap that we do not need anymore.

See picture of my engine below. 

It's bloody huge, and soo heavy. Total wieght of the car (with engine) was 1300Kg (2688lbs). But once we got all the crap out, it was soo light. The engine must wieght about 450Kg at least. 

Please find attached picture of the the engineless engine bay, the engine, and the higer suspension due to no engine.


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## CroDriver (Jan 8, 2009)

Hi gemmuj!

This will be a good looking EV! 

Have you decided what motor/controller/battery you will use?


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## PatricioIN (Jun 13, 2008)

looks like a very cool conversion.. please keep this thread posted with lots of descriptions and pictures!


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## gemmuj (Feb 22, 2008)

hi guys,

yea i'm using the following set up.



ADC FB1-4001A Motor (Dbl shaft)
Curtis 1231C Controller
PB-6 Pot Box
12 X 12vdc Trojan deep cycle Battery pack
Thomas Vacuum Pump
MR2 Power steering pump
Manzinita PCB-20 Charger
Albright SW20 Contactor
IOTA dc-dc Converter
Circuit breaker 160Vdc 250amp
and an extra suprises which i may reveal later, lol. Does anyone know a good, but cost effective (cheap) body shop in the london area, who will be able to repray my whole car. At the moment it is silver, but I would like to change this to a different colour.

Thanks

Muj


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## gemmuj (Feb 22, 2008)

hi guys,

Things have slowed down a bit while i have been waiting for things to arrive and also the weather over here in jolly old England has been a bit off.

But as of tomorrow I will be back on the project 100%, I am just in the process of working out where my batteries will be going. I have got 6 in the engine bay, and I am thinking of place 6 either under the rear seats or in the boot.

hhhmmmm.........

Thx


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## miniUMM (Jun 25, 2009)

woow that engine looks very heavy !


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## Gilbert (Aug 19, 2009)

Hi Muj

Excellent choice of car. I am the happy owner of a 156 Sportwagon with the fabulous 2.5 V6 engine. Not too environmental friendly  and I'm strongly considering converting to EV. Based in Denmark I am also part of Danish Electric Car Comite and we want to prove everyone wrong who says EV's are dull, small, slow and nerd-driven projects. So I am eager to hear more from you


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

Hey, a Londoner! I'm a Londoner, now living in Manchester!

Nice project car, you can be proud of driving that when it is all done, I hope it goes well.

Progress photos are always good to see, it will encourage me along on my MR2 conversion.


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## gemmuj (Feb 22, 2008)

hi Gilbert,

Thank you for your support. I will be honest with you, One thing that I am finding is that the Alfa has some very over complicated wiring. which has been a pain to work though. 

But saying that, I do love this car. It is going to make a wicked conversion. Does anyone know anyone who can respray a car at a very very good (cheap, preferably free) price. I am willing to place company advertising on my car.

This is going to be a special comversion. At this moment in time, I can not go into the details, but I have worked out a way in which I am able to produce enough on board electricity for the car to power its own onboard electrical systems. My patent application is currently going through, but this system will be place on my car. This is going to be the first fully self suffieint EV. 

Woodsmith, keep it up mate. trust me, when you get your conversion done, the feeling that you get knowing that you will never need petrol again is intoxicating.

gemmuj


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## bliksem (Aug 3, 2009)

This is going to be a special comversion. At this moment in time, I can not go into the details, but I have worked out a way in which I am able to produce enough on board electricity for the car to power its own onboard electrical systems. My patent application is currently going through, but this system will be place on my car. This is going to be the first fully self suffieint EV. 


This is going to be interesting , get out the pop corn.
Another secretive revolutionary idea.


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## bill2502 (Aug 27, 2009)

Hey! Nice to see a 156 going green!
Damn, that 24v engine is awesome, but one exausting tube looks some crippled.
What happened?


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## gte718p (Jul 30, 2009)

bliksem said:


> This is going to be a special comversion. At this moment in time, I can not go into the details, but I have worked out a way in which I am able to produce enough on board electricity for the car to power its own onboard electrical systems. My patent application is currently going through, but this system will be place on my car. This is going to be the first fully self suffieint EV.
> 
> 
> This is going to be interesting , get out the pop corn.
> Another secretive revolutionary idea.


The fully self sufficient EV 

This site really needs the eye role emocon


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## gemmuj (Feb 22, 2008)

hi bill,

Well you see the crimpped exhaust tube is what happens when 2.5L V6 refuses to play ball and come apart. So I gave it the good old fashioned hammer treatment. Did nothing to solve the problem at hand, but made me feel great. lol

I'm still waiting on my adapter plate and coupling. The machinest is taking his sweet time.

gemmuj


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## gemmuj (Feb 22, 2008)

Hi guys,

I'm sorry that I have not been keeping this link up to date, but due to the current global economical problems i had to stop and concentrate on working full time.

But i'm glad to say that I have moved pasted that stage now and I am back on building my car.

Does anyone know the ampage rating of my ADC FB1-4001A motor please?

thank you


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## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

gemmuj said:


> ..Does anyone know the ampage rating of my ADC FB1-4001A motor please?
> ...


I'm pretty sure you can turn that puppy up to 11!


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## gemmuj (Feb 22, 2008)

Hi Guys,

I need help with my controller. I am using the Curtis 1231C with the ADC FB1-4001A motor. 

Can someone please tell me how to connect up the controller as I did not get a wiring diagram. I have attached a picture of all the connections terminals on the front of the controller.

thank you


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## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

gemmuj... are you kidding? The 1231C is one of the most popular controllers ever. Even a simple search would have turned up the answer in less time than it took to write the post (and this response)...

http://www.evpower.com.au/-TECHNICAL-ARTICLES-.html


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## gemmuj (Feb 22, 2008)

Hi Tesseract,

Yea your right, apologuise for that. Just wasn't thinking straight.

thankz


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## bileaux (Jan 24, 2009)

Great lines on that car....beautiful.


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## gemmuj (Feb 22, 2008)

thx dude,

yea i know. I love the lines. now i'm just looking for a good (but cheap) respray place. I a looking to have the car redone in lambo orange, but a black racing stripe down the middle, which will have a line 3-5mm outline on the edge of the black stripe in silver


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## bileaux (Jan 24, 2009)

gemmuj said:


> thx dude,
> 
> yea i know. I love the lines. now i'm just looking for a good (but cheap) respray place. I a looking to have the car redone in lambo orange, but a black racing stripe down the middle, which will have a line 3-5mm outline on the edge of the black stripe in silver


Hay gemmuj,
About 35 years ago when I was 25 I put a racing stripe down my Mustang. Looked real "cool". But I'm 60 now and I can tell you that your car is screaming, to me, to be painted all black with many coats of clear coat. That car is way too classy to put a stripe on it. But really, that car will look great whatever paint YOU select. Just send me a pic. 
Maybe we can swap. I'll send you my Mustang and you send your AR?


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## Jordysport (Mar 22, 2009)

bileaux said:


> Hay gemmuj,
> About 35 years ago when I was 25 I put a racing stripe down my Mustang. Looked real "cool". But I'm 60 now and I can tell you that your car is screaming, to me, to be painted all black with many coats of clear coat. That car is way too classy to put a stripe on it. But really, that car will look great whatever paint YOU select. Just send me a pic.
> Maybe we can swap. I'll send you my Mustang and you send your AR?


don't think it would be practical to have a mustang in the uk there are corners and tight narrow roads lol.  

project is looking great but engine probably weighs about 150kg or so not 450 lol. How and where are you getting your parts from the US or within the UK?
thanks


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## bileaux (Jan 24, 2009)

gemmuj,
Not sure where I will get my parts. I do know it won't be China. Just my thing. If UK has good parts LMK. Right now my project is on paper. Very, very new to EV's and trying to get the concepts down. Reading just about everything I can get. On paper, in pencil (easy to erase!), I'm looking at the Azure Dynamics/ Solectria AC55 3 Phase AC with their matching DMOC445 controller. Up in the air on batteries now and just about everything else. 
I haven't even tackled taking the old engine out of the Mustang. So I have a long way to go. I think I'll name my build, "Around 2 It Mustang".
Thanks. Jean Gaye'


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## gemmuj (Feb 22, 2008)

hi guys,

can someone please tell me. 

does the seal between the adapter plate and the gearbox have to be 100% air or liquid tight?

I'm asking because i seemed to have got my measures for the adapter plate a tiny bit wrong. on the bottom edge of the gear box the bell housing is open by about 5-10mm. Will this be a problem??

thankx


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## Jordysport (Mar 22, 2009)

gemmuj said:


> hi guys,
> 
> can someone please tell me.
> 
> ...


Nah that is no problem its not like there is oil in the bellhousing, it would be ideal to make it sealed just to keep crap out but its not crucial. as the actual gearbox is much sealed off from the bellhousing.


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## gemmuj (Feb 22, 2008)

ok thanks bro. thats a relief


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

It is good to have the bell housing covered to keep the road dirt out. 

I've seen bell housings with sufficient holes and gaps for breathing as the area usually gets a little warm and cold so you wouldn't want it air tight or the air movement will go through the oil seals. 

Also a hole or gap at the bottom will let out any condensation.


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## gemmuj (Feb 22, 2008)

hi guys,

can anyone recommend a good way for me to secure the back end of the motor to the car's wing/bodywork?

Im going to weld two iron bars, one either side of the gearbox/motor assembly. This will act as a craddle, which will be welded to the body by two vertical supports which will be welded to the wings. 

But i do not know how i am going to secure the motor to the body. 

thx


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## gemmuj (Feb 22, 2008)

This is not my alfa, but this is what I would like for it to look like. Guys let me know what you think??


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## CroDriver (Jan 8, 2009)

2 fast 2 furious style 

You could connect the lights underneath the car to the pot box so they will be lighter whey you're on the pedal - light instead of noise - geek exhaust tuning  

Personally I don't like this over-tuned style but this one is not bad, it looks clean (no stickers or airbrush, wings...)


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## MalcolmB (Jun 10, 2008)

gemmuj said:


> hi guys,
> 
> can anyone recommend a good way for me to secure the back end of the motor to the car's wing/bodywork?
> 
> ...


Hi gemmuj
I've been following your thread as I have an Alfa 156 myself – the best car I've ever owned (...though to be honest that's not saying a lot when you know my car history...)

This may just be a terminology thing, but you're not really intending to attach motor mounts to the car body are you? Surely you want the motor mounts attached direct to the chassis, using the available engine mounts where possible.

The styling changes are a bit too much like "gilding the lily" in my opinion


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## gemmuj (Feb 22, 2008)

Hiya guys,

Sorry I haven't posted for a while. Things have been mad busy. I have news. I have just taken the lease on a new workshop that is properly kitted out with the equipment that I need, Vechicle lift, Air compressor and lines etc. 

So things are about to get very fast paced. I will guve reg updated.

What is the best metal to use for me to build a strong battery box in the boot. i think that I am going to have to cut out the boot floor and build some sort of dropped support/cage/harness.

any ideas?


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## gemmuj (Feb 22, 2008)

Hi Guys, 

Some advise please. In the attached pictures you will see the alfas gear box. Obviously my motor will be located here. I would like to attach a support arm and bracket from the motor to the cars chasis. My question is this

Is it ok for me weld a bracket on the underside of the chasis? will it hold the wieght of the motor without any problems. And yes, i will be treat the rust patches. 

Also, The third picture of of the underside of the back of the car, next to were the boot pan is.

my question is this. I would like to cut out the boot floor altogether to and create a new dropped/suspended floor which will hold my batteries in the rear. would it be ok for me to use the rear subframe that you see in the picture to support the rear batteries??

thank you


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

My recomendation would be to use the existing engine mount positions, the original bushes and bracketry from the engine. Modify the engine brackets to fit/weld on to a cradle around a suitable part of the motor frame.

This will ensure that the attachment points are best suited to the weight and torque reactions of the motor transmission as a unit. It will also mean that the unit can be place and removed easily for any repairs or changes later on.

As to the boot floor. If you can leave it alone for the time being that would be better.
The registration of your car in the UK as an Electric Vehicle should just be a change of fuel on the registration document and then you get a free tax disc. If you make changes to the structure of your body shell then it would need to be inspected under the IVA rules and you could have a whole minefiled of paperwork and inspections to cope with that could end up with your car loosing its registration number to a Q plate or being caught in a never ending paperchase loop between DVLA and the local taxation office.
What you do after it is registered electric is mostly up to you but best not to do any other changes before hand.
This applies to changing the engine mounts too.

Simon Raffety converted his Land Rover Freelander just using existing bolt holes to save even drilling a new hole in the monocoque just to avoid this sort of problem.

I am going to do likewise with my MR2 so that means welding up the hole I cut in the bulkhead to access the heater core and hiding the repair.


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## gemmuj (Feb 22, 2008)

Hi Woodsmith,

Thank you for your recommendations and I will be taking them onboard. 

Like you said, what I do after I change the registration documents, it up to me. Can someone advise me how to go about doing the boot floor modification that i was talking about.

thank you


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

For the boot floor you could build a box or tray the size you need to hold the batteries.
Then place it in the boot and draw around it.
Then cut the hole out leaving, say, 50mm spare on the inside of the marked line.
Then cut diagonally into the corners so the spare material can be folded downwards onto the hole.
Place the box or tray into the hole and use the folded boot floor material to weld, bolt rivet or whatever to hold the two parts together.

If the boot floor is not flat the same process can still be used but you may need a few more cuts to get an evenly folded set of tabs around the hole. Some panel beating may be neede to flatten any corregations.

Any extra support can then be added underneath.

If you rest it on the subframe then you will need to be sure that it doesn't interfer with any of the suspension components.


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## Jimdear2 (Oct 12, 2008)

Woody,

Probably an oversight, but you left out stress relief at each corner of the hole. I know I get used to doing things and I just assume that the person I'm passing info on to also knows how to do all of the little things.

After bending down the flange, I believe you need to put some form of radius in those corners to prevent cracking. Maybe a drill or a round file. I would think at least a 1/4 radius. What do you think 1/4 inch enough?

See attached.


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## Jordysport (Mar 22, 2009)

Jimdear2 said:


> Woody,
> 
> Probably an oversight, but you left out stress relief at each corner of the hole. I know I get used to doing things and I just assume that the person I'm passing info on to also knows how to do all of the little things.
> 
> ...


I agree you need to put a radius on it to relieve the stress concentration at the 90degree


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

Yep, an oversight. I wrote that post so many times as I was struggling with my cursor jumping all over the screen and taking my text with it so bits of typing would end up all over the place.

I work better in pictures and images then words so I would draw it that way and assume the actions.
I would also roll the radius over a little so that it doesn't just end on the flat. Much harder to describe then it is to do or draw.


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## gemmuj (Feb 22, 2008)

*Re: Alfa Romeo 156 Conversion - URGENT HELP REQUIRED*

HI guys, 

*URGENT HELP REQUIRED*

I'm sorry that I haven't been posting much. I'm soo busy with the alfa that i just do not get time. I have created and installed rear battery box and i have created my front battery rack. 

Today, I tried to install the motor but I think that the machinist has done something wrong (See pictues below). I can get the motor on with about a 1-1.5cm gap between the adapter plate and the gearbox bell housing. I can not get it on anymore, but the gearbox shaft if firmly attached to the shaft. 

what can i do about this gap? i do not have anymore time or money to go back to the machinist. I have to work out a solution and fast. 

PLEASE HELP!!!!!!

thx


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## CroDriver (Jan 8, 2009)

*Re: Alfa Romeo 156 Conversion - URGENT HELP REQUIRED*

Do you have a motor-gearbox shaft adaptor? Did you left the clutch? 

Buy a 1.5 cm thick sheet of metal, cut it out with a angle grinder and set between the gearbox and motor. Maybe it would be better to make the whole adapter plate new, with the right material thickness.


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## gemmuj (Feb 22, 2008)

yea i think that i will just have to cut some steel and place it between the plate and the gearbox, unless anyone has a different idea.

also, can anyone suggest to me, how i would go about using the cars original fuel gauge as the fuel gauge for the battery pack. thx


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## DONEAL (Sep 10, 2008)

gemmuj
This may not help? But,
Just looking at the picture, the distance appears to be about the same as the thickness on my adapter plate, on mine there is a spacer between the motor and the plate look at my build thread. I have some pictures of my motor and adapter plate.
1992 S-10 Chevrolet Build
http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showthread.php/1992-s-10-chevrolet-build-38834.html


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## gemmuj (Feb 22, 2008)

Hi guys,

Thank you for the guidance, Crodriver and Doneal, you both gave a a good idea. I think that the actual coupler itself is a bit short because i felt the gearbox shaft hit the end os the motor shaft through the middle of the couple. So i will place spacers between the motor adapter and the modified clutch plate. Also, on the adapter plate itself, at every point where there is a bolt hole on the bell housing, i will place a aluminium or steel spacer between the adapter plate and the bell housing and run a bolt through the it all. This should sort it out.

also, can someone please advise me on how to use the cars original fuel gauge as the fuel gauge for the battery bank.

thank you


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## Dave Koller (Nov 15, 2008)

muj:

Found your build! Question - what Iota are you using for your DC/DC ? Want you aware that you may need some mods to suppress the inrush current when first turned on...

http://www.evdl.org/pages/iotamods.html



and that you should use a relay on the DC side as it bleeds a bit of power off the 12 volt battery when Idle... 

http://www.waynesev.com/ev/dc2dc.html


goto this part:

Dec. 24, 2008 
The 12 volt acc. battery has been slowly going dead from a small current drain. I traced the current draw to the 12 volt side of the DC to DC converter. I need to disconnect the 12 volt battery side of the converter when the truck is setting idle, so I added a relay between the acc. battery and the 12 volt output of the IOTA DC to DC converter. I revised the DC to DC wiring to reflect this change. 

Not a big deal BUT be aware a good DC relay is needed..



I have most of the same components as you....


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## gemmuj (Feb 22, 2008)

hi Dave, 

I'm using the DLS-30 Series M. it has an input voltage of 108-132VAC. so how to i connect it to the pack because the pack voltage is DC not AC. On the input cord, i've got three wires. White, Black and green. Any ideas???

Muj


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## Dave Koller (Nov 15, 2008)

gemmuj said:


> hi Dave,
> 
> I'm using the DLS-30 Series M. it has an input voltage of 108-132VAC. so how to i connect it to the pack because the pack voltage is DC not AC. On the input cord, i've got three wires. White, Black and green. Any ideas???
> 
> Muj


Muj

First I hope you went to the URL's I listed in my last post. The model you have is 30 amp - not a lot for all one may run on an EV 

Did you get the IQ4 option? It adds automatic charging control ...

OK - you can use either the black or white - because there is a bridge diode in the charger it will not matter BUT I used black for pack POS and white for NEG.. DO NOT CONNECT THE GREEN TO ANYTHING ON THE pack..!!!!



The 108 volts for LOW on the input is for AC RMS not DC but many DIY people use this charger as a DC/DC converter. You should be OK (as far as your 144 volt pack).. Just be aware of the drain on your battery if left on the DC side!( as the other URL in my last post... ) When this first turn on there is an inrush of current to the Caps as there is in your controller.. and it can blow! The use of CL-30 inrush thermistors would help.. but some people have made it without them.. 

Read the URL for that - as a lesson.. I understand you may not be too up on the electrical BUT learn the easy way not the hard way  poof! and burn up something expensive! - Study, ask questions - it is how we all learn - and despite those that don't feel the urge to help - THIS STILL IS A DIY FORUM! Ask away..


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## gemmuj (Feb 22, 2008)

hiya guess, 

Just a quick thing. The dc-dc convertor. its has a input rating of 108-132v. I am using 12 trojan batteries. So my question is this. shall i attach the Black (POS wire) to the Pos of battery 1 and the White (NEG Wire) to the Neg of battery 10. This will give the dc-dc an input of 120vs. 

why do you need to have so much input voltage just to charge a single 12v aux battery????


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## Dave Koller (Nov 15, 2008)

gemmuj said:


> hiya guess,
> 
> Just a quick thing. The dc-dc convertor. its has a input rating of 108-132v. I am using 12 trojan batteries. So my question is this. shall i attach the Black (POS wire) to the Pos of battery 1 and the White (NEG Wire) to the Neg of battery 10. This will give the dc-dc an input of 120vs.
> 
> why do you need to have so much input voltage just to charge a single 12v aux battery????


Because this is the way the charger is set up (108 min RMS AC to 12 volt (actually 13.? or 14.? volt if it has the option..) You can't use any less than your pack as you will unbalance the pack)...

Black to pos on 1 - White to neg on 12 it is better to use the 144 DC - (remember it was 108 -120 rms AC )

If our household (here in in the US)
voltage is 120 V. *RMS*, then 120 Volts is
.707*V, where V is the peak voltage. This means
the peak voltage is 120/.707 or *169.7 Volts*.

*YOU WANT TO USE Full pack* .. BUT as stated above in the URL's I sent you, there are consequences for a straight connection - please understand the inrush to the connection - and if you disconnect the input (144) the output (13 - 14) will bleed the aux battery if left sitting...


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## gemmuj (Feb 22, 2008)

Hi Dave,

Thank you for the fast reply. I am slowly but surly getting what your telling me, lol. 

To help solve the problem of the draining aux battery can i not install a switch/cutoff on the dash which can sit between the dc-dc and the aux battery??

muj


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## Dave Koller (Nov 15, 2008)

gemmuj said:


> Hi Dave,
> 
> Thank you for the fast reply. I am slowly but surly getting what your telling me, lol.
> 
> ...


You could BUT the input to the DC/DC should be shut first to limit the current on shutoff... easy to melt a switch at 10 -20 amps..

Relay with low current to switch would be better.. Relay should handle the amps at the time... If you leave the input on by mistake... etc...


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## gemmuj (Feb 22, 2008)

hi dave, 

Your a superstar, ok my next question is about the heater. On the side of my heater moduale thingy i have 5 pins. What do I connect where, 

I got a relay with the heater. I have attached a picture of it below. 

Below you will also find two picture the interior of my alfa in its current state. Installing the heater has been the biggest challenge of this whole build because, the heater radiator is located right at the bottom of the heater box, which is all part of the heater matrix. To get to the heater radiator (so that i can change it for the electric one) i have had to take out and totally disassemble the heater box. To get the heater box out, I have had to remove to entire dashboard and this dash has bolts in the most random of places.

Also, I will be installing a manzanita micro PFC-20 charger. It has two sets of cables coming out of it. the top set is labels "AC" and the bottom set it label "DC". The DC cables are the output. I will connect the black wire (POS) to the Pos terminal of batter 1 and the White wire (NEG) to the neg terminal of battery 12. The green is the earth and i will connect it to the chasis. The AC will be wired to my AC input. 

Can some please confirm that this wiring set up is correct. Thank you


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## dtbaker (Jan 5, 2008)

here is my heater ...
http://www.envirokarma.org/ev/gallery/091104_heatduct01.htm


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## Dave Koller (Nov 15, 2008)

Dan (dtbaker) has done a great job on his so take a look at his link (above my post)... The relay you are holding was for what? The flash has obscured the letters but it looks like and AC relay... is it a solid state AC (triac) relay? If so it will not work on the DC...


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## gemmuj (Feb 22, 2008)

hi guys,

just a quick question. I am using a 144vdc battery bank. I would like to know if it is ok for me to use 4 gauge wire to wire up the manzanita charger and other items to the main pack. 

thx

muj


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## Dave Koller (Nov 15, 2008)

gemmuj said:


> hi guys,
> 
> just a quick question. I am using a 144vdc battery bank. I would like to know if it is ok for me to use 4 gauge wire to wire up the manzanita charger and other items to the main pack.
> 
> ...


Probably -- BUT be aware that that model may have :

Isolation input to output --- None ( negative terminal of input bridge rectifier is connected to battery minus terminal) 

So your pack voltage (negative) might be at your plug!!

What does your manual say...?


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## gemmuj (Feb 22, 2008)

Hi Dave, 

I do not understand you last post, it has left me a little bit comfused. Would you please be kind enough to clearify. Please find attached a better picture of the heater reley. It was supplied to me with the heater.

thx muj


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## gemmuj (Feb 22, 2008)

sorry i forget to to attach the picture of the reley


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## Dave Koller (Nov 15, 2008)

Muj;

The charger you have has NO Isolation input to output on the minus side ... so be careful.. negative terminal of input bridge rectifier is connected to battery minus terminal means your one prong on the plug could have the minus of the pack to it.. Since the pack is isolated - well - maybe it wont hit any + connector of the pack BUT be carefu l 

to quote from:
http://enviromotors.com/wiki/index.php/Sparrow/OtherCharger


"*Manzanita Micro chargers are not isolated.* This means that the battery negative terminal is attached to the A/C outlet's neutral wire during charging. Rich Rudman and Joe Smalley, the principals of Manzanita Micro, seem to believe that isolation is not necessary because there should already be many safeguards against shock hazard, including that your battery pack should be isolated from the car's chassis ground. Most electric vehicles have this sort of battery pack isolation. Sparrows from the factory do not. So, before you install a PFC charger, you must isolate the battery pack, which also involves isolating the Link-10 E-Meter. This process is useful in and of itself and it's usually referred to as "Defanging" by the Sparrownaut community. Once your Sparrow has been de-fanged, installation of a PFC charger isn't very difficult. "

The relay you have may not handle the heater *DC* as it looks like the relay is for *AC* - or the contacts are for AC.. Where did you get it and did they say it will take the *144 DC*? High voltage AC relays will not handle High voltage dc unless you switch Milliamps ( at least not for long!) All I see on the relay in your picture is AC ratings ... Be sure as it can weld shut with dc!!


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## Dave Koller (Nov 15, 2008)

Look at this:

http://www.omron.com/ecb/products/pdf/en-g7l.pdf


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## gemmuj (Feb 22, 2008)

Hi Dave,

Ok, the electric heater which I have an a rating of 120vdc -156vdc, would you please be kind enough to look at the website below and help me find a suitable relay.

http://www.maplin.co.uk/Family.aspx?Menu=1695&worldid=-2

Maplins is like the UK version of radio shack.


Ok, so from my understanding, AC and DC should be isolated, but in this case the is a direct path between the negative wires of the AC to DC.

Also, how can they be silly enough to not build in AC-DC isolation. I mean, to me, it doesn't matter about what isolation should already be in place. It should be there responsibilty to us, there customers to impliment these things for us. I mean we pay soo much for those bloody chargers (i think i paid about $3,000USD for mine 8 months ago).

Also, I have attached a picture of a digital thermostat which I found laying around the house. Do you think that it would be possible for me to wire this thermostat up to my motor to that I can monitor its temperature. It thermostat has a temperature range of -50C to 150C or -58F to 302F.

thank you

muj


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## DONEAL (Sep 10, 2008)

gemmuj
This may help, I used a Albright sw 80 contactor for my heater
Link for picture of Albright sw80
http://www.bridex.com.au/albright_sw80_series_dc_contactors.htm
Link to my build page, look at picture on page 2 
http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showthread.php/1992-s-10-chevrolet-build-38834p2.html


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## Dave Koller (Nov 15, 2008)

Doneal has the right idea.... it is the high voltage DC that needs the heavy relays -- Even the 40 amp ones on the site you listed DO NOT like high voltages...


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## DONEAL (Sep 10, 2008)

One more note, you probably already know, you will need to hook either the relay or the contactor which ever one you decide to use to the high side of your heater switch. 
This is so the heater element wont come on unless air is blowing across it. Other wise the element will burn out. 
I don’t have a picture posted but I also put a toggle switch on mine due to sometimes I run the fan without any heat to defrost the windshield.
hope this helps


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## gemmuj (Feb 22, 2008)

HI guys,

For my heater, i have decided to purchase a solid state reley which is compatible with my 144vdc pack.

just a quick thing, how do I work out the amps of my battery pack. Its annoying, ive gone completly blank. 12 X 12v deep cycle batteries in series giving me 144vdc. I know its I (amps) = volts X Watts, but i do not know the watts either, lol. what am i doing. how do I figure that out.

Also, On my ceramic heater I have 5 pins coming out. It does not mention the heater wiring in zappy's album. how are specificly are these wired up. eg. pin 1 = is connection to fan, pins 2,3,4 = bridge to each other pin 5= connection to relay (this is just an example), please help

I looked at Gav's (kiwiEV) heater and it looks like he has pins 1,3 and 5 (blue wires) connected to each other, with a blue wire coming off pin 5. and pins 2 and 4 both with independant red wires coming off them. so coming away from the heater are 2 red wires and 1 blue. Can someone please confirm that this is right, and also, what are those 3 wires connected too. 

thx


muj


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## gemmuj (Feb 22, 2008)

Hi, 

where is everyone today???

muj


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## gemmuj (Feb 22, 2008)

HI Guys, 

Just a quick question. 

how do I go about connecting my manzanita Micro charger to my battery bank. Do I just like link the positive wire to POS terminal of Bat 1 and the Neg wire to the NEG terminal of Bat 12??

I electricuted myself twice today, it was quite enjoyable, lol.


thank you

muj


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## gemmuj (Feb 22, 2008)

Wheres everyone gone? I haven't had a hit in a good few days. Does no one care anymore????

muj


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## Dave Koller (Nov 15, 2008)

Sorry Muj
Been waiting to see if someone would jump in here on your charger.. Someone that actually HAS your charger or sells it! You should have a manual for it - I believe it may have to be set for the pack also - again must be in the manual... 

Have been busy here with some catastrophes to handle (unrelated to EV). 

Let me know about the manual - I have dialup (sloooooow) but I am sure you can download one and take a quick study of hookup...


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## gemmuj (Feb 22, 2008)

HI Dave,

I'm sorry to hear that, I truly hope that all is ok.

I hae looked through the manual and it is useless. It talks alot about the AC connection but nothing about the DC connection. 

Muj


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## Dave Koller (Nov 15, 2008)

Is this like your manual? Or is it a usable install guide?

http://jfs-tech.com/cvevs/installpfc20revCwithPhotos.pdf


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## gemmuj (Feb 22, 2008)

HI Dave, 

Thank you for that. That pdf is totally different to the one I have. The one you found is actually useful, lol.#

Muj


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## gemmuj (Feb 22, 2008)

Hi Guys, (or shall i say dave), lol

I have two quick questions. With my controller, do absolutly need the KSI reley. You see, for me to find the ignition wire on my car in the cars loom is going to take a hell of a long time because of how the the is wire from the factory. I am installing a key switch cut off, so I can use that to control when the car is on and off

http://www.cloudelectric.com/product_p/sw-20259.htm

Also, 

Can you confirm that my thinking is correct regarding my braking set up. Brake pumps outside goes in the the PVC brake resevouir. The PVC tubing also has a place for the vacuum switch to monitor the pressure level inside. Then a tube goes out of the PVC pipe and into the master cyclinder of the brakes. But here is my problem. The master cylinder on the alfa is behind the dashboard, and on the engine bay side you have the brake servo only. I have attached a picture below. Where on the brake servo would I connect the tube from the PVC resevouir?

on the left hand side, there is another one of those yellow coloured pipes behind the front one.

thanks

muj


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## dtbaker (Jan 5, 2008)

gemmuj said:


> With my controller, do absolutly need the KSI reley. You see, for me to find the ignition wire on my car in the cars loom is going to take a hell of a long time


what I did was use a 'switched component' that was easy to find to drive the relay and other 'keyed' 12v stuff... like the power for the ICE ignition coil which was right on the firewall, and close to where my main contactor relay was going to be. You need a relay rated for your pack voltage! That bertha switch is rated only for 24 volts.





gemmuj said:


> The master cylinder on the alfa is behind the dashboard, and on the engine bay side you have the brake servo only.


I can't really tell from the picture, but there MUST be a tube that supplied vacuum from the ICE engine to the power brake unit... all y are doing is substituting the electric vac pump for the engine vacuum.


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## gemmuj (Feb 22, 2008)

HIya boys and girls, 

Ok, i think that I found the inlet for the vacuum, so i'll sort that out tomorrow. I've decided that I am not going to use a KSI. 

I've got three days left in my workshop, in that time i gota get all the wiring, interior and paintwork done as well as cleaning it all up. I just have no time!!!!!!!!!!!!! aaaaaahhhhhhhhhhhhh

Do I really need to add in a contactor? or will things work without it. 

thank you

muj


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## Dave Koller (Nov 15, 2008)

gemmuj said:


> HIya boys and girls,
> 
> Ok, i think that I found the inlet for the vacuum, so i'll sort that out tomorrow. I've decided that I am not going to use a KSI.
> 
> ...


All for safety Muj - all for safety --- In some parts of my world we are *Required* to have safety devices to get our cars on the road! 

Double think all that and hurry up lol...

I take it you will be out in the cold soon!


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## gemmuj (Feb 22, 2008)

Exactly dave, Out in the Cold, bbbbrrrrrrrrr (im cool)

but if I left the contactor out, and set up pack pos > main fuse > Curcuit breaker > Key switch > controller, would this still be ok???

thankx 

Muj


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## dtbaker (Jan 5, 2008)

gemmuj said:


> Exactly dave, Out in the Cold, bbbbrrrrrrrrr (im cool)
> 
> but if I left the contactor out, and set up pack pos > main fuse > Curcuit breaker > Key switch > controller, would this still be ok???
> 
> ...


you need a contactor to close from the key-switch 'on', AND a mechanical kill cable to the circuit breaker you can reach from inside, and SHOULD have an inertia switch in the middle of the keyed power to the contactor solenoid so that the power will cut if you are in a crash.

do NOT shortcut these basic safety devices as you risk yourself, and others.... and need to be an ambassador of safety for DIY Evs out there on the road.


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## gemmuj (Feb 22, 2008)

ohhhhhh, I just got schoooled by dtbaker, lol. 

ok, I will install the contactor and the inertia switch. 

thank you for the telling off, lol 


muj


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## dtbaker (Jan 5, 2008)

well... you asked.
I think its important that we all do the 'best' job we can so that various licensure and registration tasks don't get any harder than they already are. Since you don't seem to value my comments, I won't make any more ...


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## gemmuj (Feb 22, 2008)

dtbaker, 

I'm sorry if I offended you with my previous comment. That was not my intention. I was ust being sarcastic. You are the teacher and I am the student. I had an idea which and helped me alot. instead of trying to hunt down the ignition cable in the car loom, i am just going to tap into the ignition wire from the key barrel and run it direct to my reley. soo much easier. 

Also, can someone just confirm that it is the cranking wire I am looking for and not the accessories wire. Accessories wire starts the radio etc, and the cranking wire is the one which used to turn the starter motor over.

thank you

gemmuj


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## Dave Koller (Nov 15, 2008)

Muj

You are looking for the ignition wire not accessories - and NOT starter wire. Ignition wire will be on all the time key is on - start wire is on ONLY when starting.. It USUALLY is the one that ran to ignition (injectors, coil, etc).. But there are many things that com on with key...


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## gemmuj (Feb 22, 2008)

Hi Dave, 

I am going to wire the KSI com wire to the accessories wire which goes into the key barrel. I am going to do this because then as you said, the key will keep the power active.

gemmuj


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## Dave Koller (Nov 15, 2008)

gemmuj said:


> Hi Dave,
> 
> I am going to wire the KSI com wire to the accessories wire which goes into the key barrel. I am going to do this because then as you said, the key will keep the power active.
> 
> gemmuj


Remember the accessories IS NOT usually on unless the key is turned back... I think you mean the ignition NOT ACC... 

when one starts an ICE engine it is key on then start and it springs back to key on --- ACC is used to run radio etc without ignition... Might not allow some other circuits to operate using accessories .... Rethink what I said....


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## gemmuj (Feb 22, 2008)

Hi Dave, 

From the sounds of it, I think that we are talking about the same thing but just using different words, lol. 

When you insert the key into the barrel, position 1 - unlocks the steering lock, position 2 - turns on the power to the auxilary systems and as you said, psotion 3 will turn the engine over, and then spring back to position 2, it is this positon 2 wire that I will tap into. Please confirm you are talking about the same thing.

also, some advice on wiring up my relay, as I do not want to get this wrong. 

my reley has 5 pins, numbers 30, 85, 86, 87 and 87a. 

I know that;
PIN 30 - is the position wire coming from the 12v aux battery with a suitable inline fuse.

PIN 85 - in wire to the battery negetive terminal or grounded to any metal car of the car.

PIN 86 - unknown - I think this is where I attach the wire from the ignition

PIN 87 - UNKNWN
PIN 87a - UNKNOWN

can someone please advice on these connections. Also, i am using an albright SW200 contactor. How can I wire up the contactor so that it will stay energised while the key is in the ignition. I would like it like this as I do not want to hear that horid clunking noise every two mintues. 

thank you


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## DONEAL (Sep 10, 2008)

gemmuj said:


> Hi Dave,
> 
> Also, i am using an albright SW200 contactor. How can I wire up the contactor so that it will stay energised while the key is in the ignition. I would like it like this as I do not want to hear that horid clunking noise every two mintues.
> 
> thank you


not sure what you have the sw200 connected to, but it should not engage every two minutes.
The “clunking” noise is the contactor working. It should only “clunk” when it is energized.


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## gemmuj (Feb 22, 2008)

HI Doneal, 

At the moment i do not have a moving car. lol. I just assumed that it would be enegised when i wanted to accelerate and deenergised when I took my foot off the pedal. i think from the sound of you, i may have been wrong, lol.

I have the contactor inline in the connection between the positive side of battery one and the positive terminal of my curtis 123C1 controller. 

please see the picture below, from the Positive terminal of battery 1 i have the main fuse> curcuit breaker>contactor>key switch cut off and then the link to the Positive terminal of the controller.

Also, for the forum, I have attached a picture of how your reley should be wired up. I hope it helps those who need it. 

doneal, what do know how I need to wire up the small tabs on the front of the contactor so that is it engerised when it is ment too.


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## Dave Koller (Nov 15, 2008)

Muj

Have you read thru the thread about that? it is here at :

http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showthread.php/no-throttle-switch-41825.html
Clunking the contactor in and out may not be the best way... Your curtis may not like it... I forgot but do you have a pre-charge resistor in there?

Look at the diagram for your in your Curtis manual... Not the best but can be helpful for you..



On the relay:
*30* is common
*87A* is Norm closed
*87* is Norm open
*86* and *85* are for power - which polarity only matters if you have a diode to back bias the coil --- as your contactor surely has... the diode is to prevent "kickback" as you shut off the coil.. This may be new to you -- BUT important..


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## Dave Koller (Nov 15, 2008)

Oh PS:

Do something with the blue wires you ran thru that hole in the strut frame... Vibration can short them out ! Rubber grommet, wire loom, something...


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## gemmuj (Feb 22, 2008)

Hi dave, 

thank you for the reply. No my contactor doesnt have a diode on it. it is not polarity sensitve. 

My reley is all sorted, just waiting for a call back from my local alfa service centre to work out which wire from the barrel is the ignition wire so that I can tap the new wire into it. 

Can yo explain something to me which I do not understand please. basically, i've got 95% of my car done now. All the batteries are in and wired up correctly. Today, just out of curiosity, I measured the voltage at the controller. I have the positive from my battery one, and the negative from battery 12 going into the controller. When i measured the reading it said 144.5/145vdc. but how can it give me that reading when the key cut off switch, curcuit breaker, contactor are all in the off positions. I measured the voltage going past each other these item but it said 0vdc only when i touch the positive terminal on the contoler does it give me a reading.

also, now that I almost have everything in place, i would like to know, how the hell does it start, lol. ok, ill sort the wires out tomorrow

thanks you


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## Dave Koller (Nov 15, 2008)

gemmuj said:


> Hi dave,
> 
> thank you for the reply. No my contactor doesnt have a diode on it. it is not polarity sensitve.
> 
> ...


Muj:

Draw everything up! Sit back and look at it close - you were not clear on where you have connected the Power to me - I *KNOW How I would connect it - *But I am not sure what u have connected to what  It can become expensive, dangerous, and a very bad experience all in one *POOF!

First*: The diode I am talking about is to PROTECT circuits from the back EMF of the coils! (that includes your key switch) ...

look at my thread - toward the end and see the relay diagram - you will note a diode on EACH coil of all relays AND my contactors came with a diode resistor already across them - look close at yours .. it is improtant...


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## DONEAL (Sep 10, 2008)

gemmuj said:


> Hi dave,
> I measured the voltage at the controller. I have the positive from my battery one, and the negative from battery 12 going into the controller. When i measured the reading it said 144.5/145vdc.


take Dave's advise!


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## gemmuj (Feb 22, 2008)

Hi guys, 

Ok i drew up my set up and I would like someone to confirm it for me. and advice me of any changes I may need to make.

I have 12 batteries. 5 in the front and 7 in the back. 
*
Batteries*

From battery 1 i have connected them NEG to POS. Batt 5 the NEG wire runs under the car (in protective tubing) to the POS of batt 6. Batts 6 -12 are again connected NEG t0 POS. The NEG from batt 12 runs back under the car (in protective tubing) to the controller.

*Control box*

POS wire from batt 1 goes to main fuse>curcuit breaker>contactor>key switch cut off then into B+ on controller.

*Motor*

A2 and S2 are connected to each other (my gearbox runs counter clockwise)

A1 to Controller B+

S1 to controller M- 

*Controller*

B+: POS from control box (from POS of batt 1), also, connection to A1 of motor/

B-: direct from NEG of batt 12.

M-: to S1 of motor

The three spade connectors at the top left of the controller. the 2nd and 3rd connectors are connected to the pot box.

*What do I connect to A2 on the controller??*

*POT BOX*

The two black and white wires connect to the controller. 

I have my pot box mounted with the arm pointing up and to he left. I have connected the first of the spade connectors to the reley which is connected to the cars ignition.
*
DC-DC convertor*

NEG to NEG of pack
POS to POS of pack

NEG and POS of outputs to the AUX batt

what you guys thing? any comments??


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## Dave Koller (Nov 15, 2008)

Muj:

Quick reply on *A2* - heat shrink over *A2 terminal on controller* - *DO NOT HOOK IT TO ANYTHING ...*
you said:
"The three spade connectors at the top left of the controller. the 2nd and 3rd connectors are connected to the pot box."

and

"I have connected the first of the spade connectors to the reley which is connected to the cars ignition."

*What connects to the main contactor?* Is it the key switch also? 

You may want to "Precharge" (Big capacitor bank needs to come up to voltage slower) BEFORE you engage full power to the CURTIS.. 

Can you draw it out and post it as a drawing on your thread here?


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## Dave Koller (Nov 15, 2008)

Read this..

http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showthread.php?t=25419


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## gemmuj (Feb 22, 2008)

Hi Dave, 

Ok, i will not connect ANYTHING to A2 on the controller.

I have not connected anything to the spade connectors on the contactor yet as I do not know what to connect to them. I was waiting for you to advise me on that. 

I will check out the precharge thread in a bit. But apart from that are you guys happy with the rest.

gem


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## gemmuj (Feb 22, 2008)

Hi Guys, 

I have last points as I have to get my cars up and rolling today at all costs. 

How do I get the contactor to energise and turn on so that the car moves. I need to know what to connect the little spade tabs to??? to the reley ignition??

gemmuj


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## Dave Koller (Nov 15, 2008)

gemmuj said:


> Hi Guys,
> 
> I have last points as I have to get my cars up and rolling today at all costs.
> 
> ...


No one can tell you MuJ - as you may drive it thru a wall! 

First with no precharge you may blow the controller when you engage the contactor.
Second with no safety but a key - you are taking a big chance.

Some people use another contactor (I do) for precharge - the spades may have that diode across them - did you look? - 

I, for one ( the only one answering you!) don't want to see you or someone nearby hurt... 

SO - I was waiting for you to let me know on the pre-charge.. AND safety measures you took!

If you are running out of time (at that garage) - and are not REALLY DONE - call a tow truck and save your self some personal grief !

You are rushing - and need to study more - for yourself...


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## gemmuj (Feb 22, 2008)

Hi guys, 

Still no forward motion. 

Right, so I have installed a new reley set up as adviced by gav of kiwiev. please find a picture of this set up below. so this is what happens now. With no key in the ignition, all the connections of the reley (except the consent 12v) and pot box read as 0v give or take. 

when i turn the key to the ignition/accessories position, all the reley connectors and the pot box register a voltage of 12v and the contactor clicks in (its not as loud as I thought it was going to be). with the curcuit breaker on, and the key switch on, the car still does not move. The controller is connected properly. This batteries are also. 

please find below a picture of how i have connected my pot box to the controller. Is in correct?? the white wire to PIN 2 and the black to PIN 3. Do I need to conntact anything to PIN 1 on the controller???

thank you


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

gemmuj said:


> Still no forward motion.
> please find below a picture of how i have connected my pot box to the controller. Is in correct?? the white wire to PIN 2 and the black to PIN 3. Do I need to conntact anything to PIN 1 on the controller???


Hi gem,

Wire it up like this. I'd forget about that diagram you just posted 

edit: You should have a precharge which is not shown.


[h2]Curtis 1231C Wiring Diagram[/h2]
*







*


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## Dave Koller (Nov 15, 2008)

Thanks Major..

Can't get much simpler than that - !

Muj - you ARE still alive!


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## gemmuj (Feb 22, 2008)

Hi Guys

AMAZING NEWS - WOOOOOOO HOOOOOO

I GOT THE CAR UP AND RUNNING. EVEN BETTER NEWS - I'M STILL ALIVE


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## bill2502 (Aug 27, 2009)

If you still alive, please post some pics of the Alfa!
I´m thinking in convert a 156 2.0 TS 16v 1999.


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## gemmuj (Feb 22, 2008)

Hi Bill2502, 

Yea I'm still alive, just about. Please see the pictures below of injuries during construction. 

Also, I've been electricuted four time,  lol. 

By 24v, 48v, 72v and finally, my favourite and most memorable time was by 132v. On this occation, i really felt my heart jump and had to sit for a bit. and yes, i did go to the hospital for an ECG check. all was normal. Also, the last picture, have you ever seen a more perfect blood drop.

Mate, from my personal experience, I would very much say no not convert an Alfa. There are a b*t*h to work on, badly built, and frustrating to work on. The car is very very heavy, and i did not appricate how heavy until i got the car moving, lol. Also, the electrics on Alfa's are disgrusting and will make you want to shoot yourself. 

I would say, go for an early to mid 90's car, like a 95' vw golf or something. ohh also, i would say, make life easier for yourself in the long run and go for a car which did not have air con or power steering. 

I hope that this helps

muj


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## Dave Koller (Nov 15, 2008)

Well at least the fingers are still on the hand !


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## schade_1_2 (Jun 6, 2013)

please can you show me one video if you got it i d like see see how did you did that and tell me please how does is cost you cause i want to convert mine 1900cc diesel thnx


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## russatt (Aug 30, 2013)

Hi

Are you still around. How is your Alfa going. I am wanting to convert one.


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