# [EVDL] Fwd: Battery prices



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

bms is probably not necessary, anymore than it is with lead acid. you 
may have to avoid over discharging them but probably much less of a 
problem than lead has.
you do have to connect the cells though which is less standardly available

when you are calculating the price what lithium cell are you using?



> Brian D. Hall wrote:
> > I had a Battery salesman from Discover come into my shop today. He was very
> > proud of the new EV31-a battery, it's a sealed agm type,114ah,89lbs.....
> > suggested retail of $525 each.wow
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Hey Dan, I have been communicating with Victoria of Headway Company in
China about their High Capacity LiFeO4 batteries. I know you have recently
got some 10 ah test cells from them. Did you get any information on a
3.2volt/50 ah battery from them? I am very close to ordering 2 of
these for
evaluation. I believe the cost will be in the neighborhood of $80 each. I
have not confirmed that exactly. Any info you have would be appreciated.
Jerry



> Dan Frederiksen <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> > bms is probably not necessary, anymore than it is with lead acid. you
> > may have to avoid over discharging them but probably much less of a
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

I may have seen them but that's a prismatic cell and has lower relative 
power isn't it?

I was going for a small pack for which I need relatively high power 
density to drive the car (small pack still has to push the car)
do you have the specs for the cell? was it a 2C cell

if you are using a bigger pack then they could be fine

Dan



> Gerald Wagner wrote:
> > Hey Dan, I have been communicating with Victoria of Headway Company in
> > China about their High Capacity LiFeO4 batteries. I know you have recently
> > got some 10 ah test cells from them. Did you get any information on a
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

I only got this list from them:
http://www.zev.dk/misc/HeadwayLiFeO4.htm

their page on alibaba mentions a 65220 cell (65mm diameter 220mm high, 
tall as a book) but I think she said that was not in production. if that 
is a good cell and in production that could probably be interesting for 
many yes

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Yes... the recent increased in lead acid prices have made other
technologies look comparatively better.... just in the past 6 months
I've seen almost a 50% increase in the wholesale price of my lead
batteries.... we may end up going to other technololgies finally
because lead goes up, not because lithium comes down. Unfortuneately.

Just like what finally made PV economically cost effective in CA in
the past few years was mostly the great increase in electricity
prices.. not the reductions in PV costs.....

Z

>
>
> I had a Battery salesman from Discover come into my shop today. He was very
> proud of the new EV31-a battery, it's a sealed agm type,114ah,89lbs.....
> suggested retail of $525 each.wow
> That sure makes the lifepo4 batteries look good. Usable ah is best at about
> 65 ah. so a comparable 65ah , 4 cell pack of lifepo4 is only $429.it's
> about 20 lbs, so one would need to add some weight to keep the car on the
> ground.:^)....of course this does not account for the BMS needed, or the
> longer life of the lifepo4's. so I guess I"m comparing apples to
> watermelons.
>
> --
> Brian D. HAll
> Thunderstruck-ev.com
> 3200 Dutton Ave #319
> Santa Rosa, Ca 95407
> 707-575-0353 voice
> 707-544-5304 fax
>
>
>
> --
> Brian D. HAll
> Thunderstruck-ev.com
> 3200 Dutton Ave #319
> Santa Rosa, Ca 95407
> 707-575-0353 voice
> 707-544-5304 fax
> _______________________________________________
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>

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Hi Dan, My initial request was for a 144volt, 50 ah battery pack for a
Mazda RX-7 I am converting. I asked for 150 to 200 amps continuous rating
with 500 amps for acceleration. Victoria responded with the 42120 cells ,
225 in a series / parallel configuration. Max continuous discharge of 250
amps and peak discharge at 500 a. cost was $3600 and total weight was 80
kgs. Sweet.

The next email said the engineers said the 38120 cells would do the job.

After more questions from me on how they would be packaged, the engineers
told her to offer me a 3.2 volt/50 amp hour "battery pack". 45 of these
would make my 144 volt requirement. No price yet on this configuration. If
this is one battery at 50 ah, it simplifies battery management Or it might
just be 5 of the 10 ah 38120's in a package.

I will have to wait for next week to get more answers.

Let me know how the testing goes with your samples. I am going to order a
sample of two of the 50 ah cell if they exist. This will be substituted for
one of my 6 volt flooded lead batteries in my truck conversion and I will
be able to compare it to the lead batteries under load. Life could get very
interesting.

Jerry



> Dan Frederiksen <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> > I only got this list from them:
> > http://www.zev.dk/misc/HeadwayLiFeO4.htm
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

i'd like to know what you find out also, would I be correct in calculating 
$3600.00 for a 144VDC pack?

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Gerald Wagner" <[email protected]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Saturday, January 05, 2008 5:19 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Fwd: Battery prices


> Hey Dan, I have been communicating with Victoria of Headway Company in
> China about their High Capacity LiFeO4 batteries. I know you have recently
> got some 10 ah test cells from them. Did you get any information on a
> 3.2volt/50 ah battery from them? I am very close to ordering 2 of
> these for
> evaluation. I believe the cost will be in the neighborhood of $80 each. 
> I
> have not confirmed that exactly. Any info you have would be appreciated.
> Jerry
>
>


> Dan Frederiksen <[email protected]> wrote:
> >
> >> bms is probably not necessary, anymore than it is with lead acid. you
> >> may have to avoid over discharging them but probably much less of a
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Yes the first quote was for 225 individual cells for a 144 volt / 50 amp
hour pack. And remember that is equal to a 144 volt 100 amp hour lead acid
pack And the weight is 176 pounds! wow Jerry



> Josh Creel <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> > i'd like to know what you find out also, would I be correct in
> > calculating
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

what kind of range do you espect from the 50 an pak? what dod can you 
safely discharge to with a pack like this?

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Gerald Wagner" <[email protected]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Saturday, January 05, 2008 9:02 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Fwd: Battery prices


> Hi Dan, My initial request was for a 144volt, 50 ah battery pack for a
> Mazda RX-7 I am converting. I asked for 150 to 200 amps continuous rating
> with 500 amps for acceleration. Victoria responded with the 42120 cells ,
> 225 in a series / parallel configuration. Max continuous discharge of 250
> amps and peak discharge at 500 a. cost was $3600 and total weight was 80
> kgs. Sweet.
>
> The next email said the engineers said the 38120 cells would do the job.
>
> After more questions from me on how they would be packaged, the engineers
> told her to offer me a 3.2 volt/50 amp hour "battery pack". 45 of these
> would make my 144 volt requirement. No price yet on this configuration. 
> If
> this is one battery at 50 ah, it simplifies battery management Or it 
> might
> just be 5 of the 10 ah 38120's in a package.
>
> I will have to wait for next week to get more answers.
>
> Let me know how the testing goes with your samples. I am going to order a
> sample of two of the 50 ah cell if they exist. This will be substituted 
> for
> one of my 6 volt flooded lead batteries in my truck conversion and I will
> be able to compare it to the lead batteries under load. Life could get 
> very
> interesting.
>
> Jerry
>
>


> Dan Frederiksen <[email protected]> wrote:
> >
> >> I only got this list from them:
> >> http://www.zev.dk/misc/HeadwayLiFeO4.htm
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Gerald Wagner wrote:
> > Hi Dan, My initial request was for a 144volt, 50 ah battery pack for a
> > Mazda RX-7 I am converting. I asked for 150 to 200 amps continuous rating
> > with 500 amps for acceleration. Victoria responded with the 42120 cells ,
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

[No message]


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Why is a 50 Amp-Hour Lithium pack the same as a 100 Amp-Hour Lead acid?

"Yes the first quote was for 225 individual cells for a 144 volt / 50 amp
hour pack. And remember that is equal to a 144 volt 100 amp hour lead acid
pack And the weight is 176 pounds! wow Jerry"

Dave Delman
Electric DeLorean Project
electricdelorean.com




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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Good morning from sunny Florida. You guys are way ahead of me on the
learning curve here. Ok the latest quote from Victoria ( export manager )
confirms that the 50 ah pack is indeed five 10ah cells in a package. Price
for these is $98.FOB shanghi. If I buy the individual cells the price is
$3600 for 225 cells or $16 each. So they are charging $18 for package
labor/matl.

BTW I could not get the break quantity for a volume discount, but there
should be one. *DAN*, it seems the more people contact her the lower the
price goes. We need to swamp her with inquiries! lol

I have a lot to learn on the connections. *IAN*, when you spot weld do you
weld a strap from one cell to the next?

I will order one or two of the 50 amp/hour packs from them and look at how
they do it.




> Ian Hooper <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> > US$3600 for 7.2 kWh pack is 50 cents per watt hour, that is very good
> > - 20% cheaper than ThunderSky!
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Josh - The 50 ah was really to get a handle on cost of LI vs. lead. If I
put them in my 1986 Mazda RX-7 I am guessing a 20 mile range. I got the
impression you can go to 100 DOD, but that will have to be confirmed.

If I weld the cells here as Ian is suggesting I can parallel more cells for
more amps before I put the 45 groups in series for the 144 volts. This
actually gives you any combination of voltage and amperage needed. I get
the impression that LI cells in parallel do not need cell management. Can
anyone confirm that?? Jerry



> Josh Creel <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> > what kind of range do you espect from the 50 an pak? what dod can you
> > safely discharge to with a pack like this?
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Hi EVerybody;

Sounds too good to be true? Maybe it is? Real, I mean, Anybody stepping 
up to the plate here and BUYING one of these packs? Volume orders? I'll bet 
the List COULD come up for a few carloads, BIG ass R.R.Hi Cube BOX car 
loads! And I could be driving an EV where the batt, Pak weighs LESS than me! 
No more Led Sleds!176 lbs would fit nicely in a Freedom, or Sunrise.Hell !go 
4-500 lbs? So I could drive out to PDX from CT. Being thousands of Lbs 
lighter than a Led Sled load of battery you COULD waft along on little amp 
draw?Howbout a BMS, though?I don't think rectifiers and Stench Chords will 
do, here?

Looks like 08 is off to a good start?WE, the EV community(Family?) here, 
doing good shit, for our nation, and the world. Stayin' tuned, here.Dave 
won't need the Flux Crapaciter anymore<g>?

Seeya

Bob
----- Original Message ----- 
From: <[email protected]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Sunday, January 06, 2008 8:36 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Fwd: Battery prices


> Why is a 50 Amp-Hour Lithium pack the same as a 100 Amp-Hour Lead acid?
>
> "Yes the first quote was for 225 individual cells for a 144 volt / 50 amp
> hour pack. And remember that is equal to a 144 volt 100 amp hour lead 
> acid
> pack And the weight is 176 pounds! wow Jerry"
>
> Dave Delman
> Electric DeLorean Project
> electricdelorean.com
>
>
>
>
> **************Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape.
> http://body.aol.com/fitness/winter-exercise?NCID=aolcmp00300000002489
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>
>
> -- 
> Internal Virus Database is out-of-date.
> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
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> 9/22/2007 1:27 PM
>
> 

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

[No message]


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

These folks can build packs for you in the UK

http://www.mpoweruk.com/index.htm
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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Bob Rice wrote:
> > Sounds too good to be true? Maybe it is? Real, I mean, Anybody stepping
> > up to the plate here and BUYING one of these packs?
> 
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

[No message]


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Basically what he said....the lead acid has a voltage drop as it is discharged whereas the lithium has a flatter discharge curve keeping its full voltage down to almost zero charge... 
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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Yes when you think about i, it will be almost a four to one relationship.
First you have the Peukerts loss that limits the total current available
from lead to 50% if you are lucky. This is from the internal resistance of
the lead battery at high current draws.

Then you have another 50 % where we put twice as many batteries in the
vehicle to keep the DOD to 50% and extend the life of the batteries.

The LI batteries do not have Peukerts effect due to very low internal
resistance, and you can draw the rated amp hours with out damage.

I am going to buy 2 of the pre-made 50 amp/hour batteries and make a
6.5volt battery. I will bypass one of my lead batteries in my truck
and
replace it with this Li battery. I will then have some real world
experience by monitoring how this Li battery performs.

I will be the "lone ranger" on a couple of hundred dollars of Li
Jerry



> [email protected] <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> > Basically what he said....the lead acid has a voltage drop as it is
> > discharged whereas the lithium has a flatter discharge curve keeping its
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Gerald Wagner skrev:
> Then you have another 50 % where we put twice as many batteries in the
> vehicle to keep the DOD to 50% and extend the life of the batteries.
> 

do lead cars really only discharge half the way? I thought they emptied 
them almost as much as peukert allows. otherwise they would never get 
any range.

> I am going to buy 2 of the pre-made 50 amp/hour batteries and make a
> 6.5volt battery. I will bypass one of my lead batteries in my truck
> and
> replace it with this Li battery. I will then have some real world
> experience by monitoring how this Li battery performs.
> 

you can buy 1 pack and 4 loose cells and make a 12V out of the 4 cells. 
for brief cranking they might be able to provide the power. 
theoretically 900 amps max for the capacity version (38120L). the 38120P 
should be able to make 1200A.
4 of those cells would make a light starter battery  you can get the 
5-pack as L cells and the 4 loose as P cells.
those 4 would weigh 1.2kg. should be a fun car battery 

they might not be terribly compatible with the alternator but for an 
experiment they don't have to last 10 years

Dan

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Someone should tell GM that. They are being particularly paranoid in their
charge/discharge strategy for the batteries in the Volt, which means they'll
need a larger pack (and thus a higher pricetag) to get to a 40 mile range.

-----Original Message-----
I've been told that a123 cells can be discharged nearly 100% without
problems.


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Would anyone like to share the contact information for Victoria at Headway?
Do they have a website?
Thanks.
Martin



> Gerald Wagner <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> > Hey Dan, I have been communicating with Victoria of Headway Company in
> > China about their High Capacity LiFeO4 batteries. I know you have recently
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Absolutely, lets get them excited about selling to EV people. They are
selling direct to the consumer with no distributors

http://headway-cn.en.alibaba.com/contactinfo.html

http://headway-cn.en.alibaba.com/

Jerry



> martin emde <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> > Would anyone like to share the contact information for Victoria at
> > Headway?
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

li-ion battery welding.
You really need an inverter welder to weld li-ion cells, the single
and dual pulse Capacitive Discharge and their homebrew cousins well take
life from the cell*.
If you are looking on e-bay, I recommend against the Miyachi ME35. I
alomost got one but it turns out that at 60hz the minimum pulse time is
~17ms and you really need to keep it at about 1/2 that.
The strips are usually nickel but I have seen copper used for lower
resistance.

I bought an IP217 and a transformer, but don't have the head yet.
(It also needs 3 phase power which i have to make anyway for my mill)
This is all end of life equipment but quality.



* The faster you can apply the heat to weld and get out of there the
shallower the heat soaks into the cell. The weld energy doesn't go thru
the cell, they use two electrodes and the current goes from electrode
through the tab through the top of the cell and back up through the tab
to the other electrode. Wherer the high resistance is from top to tap it
welds. 4000amps for 8ms is 32wattseconds and so is 2000 amps * 16ms,
just think how long you must pump in heat just to solder.
These welders usually use two pulses also; one to clean, one to weld.

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

>> I have a lot to learn on the connections. *IAN*, when you spot 
>> weld do you
>> weld a strap from one cell to the next?
> 
> Yeah pretty much, just use nickel straps spot welded onto the 
> terminals of adjoining cells.

Here's what you need

http://www.powerstream.com/BPD.htm

--Rick

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

"...lithium ion cells in parallel don't need cell management..."

Well, here is my read on it.
There is a danger that a cell may short in which case all the other
cells discharge into it and the whole thing goes nuclear.
The capacity of the combination is really only as good as the
weakest cell.
2 cells at different charge states, connected in parallel, won't
equalize in reasonable time. There isn't anything to motivate the power
to move.
This lowest capacity cell will fill up first and will raise the
overvoltage flag. slowing the charge of the other cells.
Trying to push max charge will force that weakest cell to die
sooner causing the groups capacity to effectively drop.
So you need cells that are very similar and need to keep them at
the same temperature. Minimizing the number in parallel helps minimize
this effect, so he larger AH cells may help, but amps go up per cell and
thermal area/ah drops so the out of tolerance may vary more.





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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

I think they do that to ensure the lifespan will be greater than the car's
I hope it will be possible to hack it to use more of the range
75 mile range is quite useful



> [email protected] wrote:
> > Someone should tell GM that. They are being particularly paranoid in their
> > charge/discharge strategy for the batteries in the Volt, which means they'll
> > need a larger pack (and thus a higher pricetag) to get to a 40 mile range.
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Jeff Shanab <[email protected]> wrote:
> > "...lithium ion cells in parallel don't need cell management..."
> >
> > Well, here is my read on it.
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Morgan LaMoore kirjoitti 7.1.2008 kello 2.45:

>


> Jeff Shanab <[email protected]> wrote:
> >> "...lithium ion cells in parallel don't need cell management..."
> >>
> >> Well, here is my read on it.
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> But if you have a fuse or just a weak point in the tab between the
> cells that disconnects when amps get high enough? Doesn=B4t that resolve
> the problem?
>
> Osmo =

That is my plan.

I am purposely gonna use 12 cells in parallel per sub-module with a
notch that looks like a fuse. By default the system will have 2 of these
12 cell submodules in parallel so even if I pull 1000 amps that is only
42 amps per cell. So if I design the fuse region for 100A @ 2sec it
should not provide to much resistance per cell and still blow under a
second in a short condition. I just need to figure a good way to protect
people/electronics and any flammables from this event.

Perhaps we need to invent the fuse tab. Enclosed, rated at a certain amp
and weldable to the cells. this may be as simple as bending it up and
riviting a section of bakelight on each side of it.

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Ian Hooper wrote:
> > US$3600 for 7.2 kWh pack is 50 cents per watt hour, that is very good
> > - 20% cheaper than ThunderSky!
> >
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Just thinking out-loud here but I have not heard any definite word on 
the life of these batteries. I only hear it should be it maybe it 
might be and derivatives of the same. Never any word directly from 
the manufacturer on the true life of these new world batteries. 
Sounds damn good but 10K is a lot to pay unless the life of these is 
so damn good it really would be worth the cost. I am listening. Just 
not hearing what is needed. I'd jump in start a company that will 
weld packs together for the EV world but if the batteries don't live 
up to the Mega hype then it's all for nought. What's this I hear 
about the Mega jump in lead prices? Maybe a forced push to help get 
lithium batteries into the main stream and to keep the costs high. It 
would only look low compared to the high prices of lead acid. No way 
did the market receive some sort of disaster or any large jump in 
demand to cause that kind of jump. Gotta be skeptical here.

: )




> Chuck Homic wrote:
> 
> > I'd pay $10K in a heartbeat if it was packaged well and had a
> > feasible BMS solution.
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

I've heard (secondhand via evdl messages) that some of the new
chemistries are claiming 5-10 year lifespans. Unfortunately the
chemistry is too new for anyone to have actual experience with it - we
can only estimate based on the couple years (or less, in some cases)
that they have been around.

-Ben



> <[email protected]> wrote:
> > Just thinking out-loud here but I have not heard any definite word on
> > the life of these batteries. I only hear it should be it maybe it
> > might be and derivatives of the same. Never any word directly from
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Hard to fork over 10K for a claim. I still like being on the cutting 
edged of things and I am willing to invest but it really needs to be 
a sound investment for that kind of money. If stocks are available 
from these companies then I might just plunk down some. Might just 
prove a worthy investment. Invest in the future. Sure thing.

Pete

: )





> Ben wrote:
> 
> > claiming 5-10 year lifespans
> 
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

The export manager at Headway claims 1000 deep discharge cycles and five
years life. But who knows as yet. Give Victoria Chen an email and ask her
how they determined these claims.

http://headway-cn.en.alibaba.com/

Jerry Wagner



> <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> > Hard to fork over 10K for a claim. I still like being on the cutting
> > edged of things and I am willing to invest but it really needs to be
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> "Gerald Wagner" <[email protected]> wrote:
> > The export manager at Headway claims 1000 deep discharge cycles and five
> > years life. But who knows as yet. Give Victoria Chen an email and ask
> > her
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Tim Humphrey wrote:
> > Has anybody enquired yet as to which chemistry these are? I doubt they are LiFePo4.
> >
> the 3.2v and the high power level is a serious hint. why do you doubt that?
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Tim Humphrey <[email protected]> wrote:
> >
> >
> >>
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

The site and her emails call it a LiFeO4. No "P" in it.



> Tim Humphrey <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> >
> >
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

The welder is pricey but it can do double duty in your coil or rail gun.


> Yeah pretty much, just use nickel straps spot welded onto the 
> terminals of adjoining cells.

Here's what you need

http://www.powerstream.com/BPD.htm

--Rick

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View this message in context: http://www.nabble.com/Fwd%3A-Battery-prices-tp14637201s25542p14677414.html
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