# Electric Riding Lawn Mower



## major (Apr 4, 2008)

Alex Everett said:


> <snip>
> Any thoughts, Ideas, input......
> I have a 48 volt on/off switch so I see no need in a controller.


Hey Alex,

I say you should use a controller. First, an "on/off" switch? You need a contactor. You switch 48 volts of battery across that motor and you'll draw hundreds of amps. That will fry a switch. Also, across the line starting like that will pull wheelies and break things. Motor controllers have a current limit and ramp-up features which are there for a reason.

Next, is that golf car motor series or SepEx? If it is a series motor and you run without a controller, try to shift on the fly, when you disengage the motor it will self destruct.

Next, does the motor have a drive end bearing? Most golf car motors pilot on the axle bearing.

Have fun with it, but be careful.

major


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## Alex Everett (Dec 26, 2007)

major said:


> Hey Alex,
> 
> First, an "on/off" switch? You need a contactor. You switch 48 volts of battery across that motor and you'll draw hundreds of amps. That will fry a switch. Also, across the line starting like that will pull wheelies and break things. Motor controllers have a current limit and ramp-up features which are there for a reason.
> 
> ...


I should have been more specific, I have switch run to 48 volt snap contactor

belts for blades and tranny have pedal/arm release features that will release tension allowing motor to spin and that will slowly engage/disengage drive and blade components preventing wheelie. I.C.E. was 5000 r.p.m. Electric is 4000. R.P.M. and it is a series wound.

I am building mounting plate, adapter shaft with bearing for support of motor end.

I am thinking about an amperage limiter of some sort without purchase of a $300. controller


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## JohninCR (May 6, 2008)

CloudElectric has Kelly controllers that will work for you for under $200. I picked up a 200A/100A 24-36V Kelly for $99 on sale a couple of months ago. I also picked up a brand new 350A 36-48V Curtis controller for $122 on Ebay in April. 

I've got a 4hp powerpack motor that turns 17k rpms. I've spun it using a controller, but I can't imagine running it with a direct connection. Even if you can force yours to work without a controller, you'll want one eventually, so for personal safety as well as the safety of your motor, batteries and vehicle you might as well bite the bullet now. 

Take care,

John


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

Alex Everett said:


> belts for blades and tranny have pedal/arm release features that will release tension allowing motor to spin and that will slowly engage/disengage drive and blade components preventing wheelie. I.C.E. was 5000 r.p.m. Electric is 4000. R.P.M. and it is a series wound.
> 
> I am thinking about an amperage limiter of some sort without purchase of a $300. controller


Hi Alex,

That's the problem. You cannot run the series motor at full voltage unloaded and then engage the load. The motor will overspeed and disassemble.

And what is an "amperage limiter"? A resistor?

Regards,

major


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## Mastiff (Jan 11, 2008)

> belts for blades and tranny have pedal/arm release features that will release tension allowing motor to spin and that will slowly engage/disengage drive and blade components preventing wheelie. I.C.E. was 5000 r.p.m. Electric is 4000. R.P.M. and it is a series wound.


You can NEVER, NEVER remove the load from a Series wound Electric motor.

If your running the Series wound motor and you let the load off of the motor it will spin up to 10,000+RPM and literally Arc and explode.
This will happen even with a controller.

You simply can not run a Series wound motor without a load on it.

I would look on Ebay for a cheap Altrax 48volt golf-cart controller, just to be safe and take better care of the batteries and motor.


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## Alex Everett (Dec 26, 2007)

major said:


> Hi Alex,
> And what is an "amperage limiter"? A resistor?
> 
> Regards,
> ...


I was thinking a resistor of some sort or a voltage regulator of some kind but now that others have chimed in on the "DO NOT DO THIS" bandwagon, I believe I'll go with a controller. I was just looking to save a greenback or two.

Us old folks sometimes get brain farts that lead us off to places we don't want to go......


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## EL Escort (May 8, 2008)

Alex Everett


> Starting out small here on a automobile conversion later in the year. My practice vehicle is a Riding Mower with blown engine.
> 
> I have ordered the motor (48 volt golf cart motor) on e-bay for $125.00 I have allready stripped the mower and have installed the battery racks and the batteries. Should have the wiring done this weekend


I'm just a few days behind you on the mower. I have the Club Car 48 volt motor. A couple of battery cores for the fit and need to follow up on 2 junk golf carts which hopefully one might have a Curtis controller on it. I'll post pics on my thread soon.


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## Alex Everett (Dec 26, 2007)

Here are some pics of what I have up to now. No wiring in yet but hopefully this weekend I'll have it running


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## Alex Everett (Dec 26, 2007)

Forgot to mention, The electric motor fits the opening that was made for the ICE and it is a perfec fit. Drill the holes, mount the plate with bearing on the bottom then add pully for belts.


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## talonts (Apr 11, 2008)

Alex Everett said:


> Forgot to mention, The electric motor fits the opening that was made for the ICE and it is a perfec fit. Drill the holes, mount the plate with bearing on the bottom then add pully for belts.


The pulleys are my sticking point so far. I have a 24V motor, AXE controller, contactors, etc. Everything but the large cable and batteries (waiting on that until everything else is fit to the mower, so I know what batteries will fit).

The motor I have has a stepped output shaft, 7/8" closest to the motor, just over 3/4 at the end. I finally found a pulley setup on Ebay that takes a keyed 7/8" shaft, and received it, but mounting it is the problem. I'm going to have to cut the end off the motor shaft (circlip slot near the tip), then drill and tap the shaft for a bolt. 

I'm trying to figure out the best way to do that, as I do NOT want to have to disassemble the motor to tap it. I might try running the motor with a 12V battery, and using a cordless drill at low speed to center the hole (if I drill before cutting off the tip, I can use the centering divot to help). The other choice is to finally unbox my drillpress, but it's a small one, so might not have enough throat to handle the motor length. I need to figure out the smallest diameter bolt that I can use, that might be tricky.

After that, I'll have to fit a washer into the pulley shaft and weld it into place, as the keyed insert in the pulley setup just ends about 2" into the shaft, with no shoulder for a bolt.

This stupid pulley mod looks to be the most involved work of the entire conversion!


In your case, you might have it "easy" - since you have to add a shaft anyways, you can mod the shaft before installing it to the motor, and make it fit whatever pulley shaft you have (in my case, the mower used a 1" output shaft, so the pulleys that came on it would not work with my motor).


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## Alex Everett (Dec 26, 2007)

second opinion...
If you have a shaft that will fit in the end of the motor and the end of the pully, try to cut the pully end to the proper length(if needed), insert shaft into pully and motor, drill transversely through shaft at each end and drive in shear pins. Trying to drill a centered hole into the shaft end of the motor will be very difficuly to do. depth is too far to see acurately and hardened metal is the most difficult to start a drill hole and keep centered. In addition, any shavings from the drilling that may fall into the motor wouild be devastating. I have an industrial drill press (6 foot tall) and I would be afraid to try drilling that way


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## talonts (Apr 11, 2008)

Alex Everett said:


> second opinion...
> If you have a shaft that will fit in the end of the motor and the end of the pully, try to cut the pully end to the proper length(if needed), insert shaft into pully and motor, drill transversely through shaft at each end and drive in shear pins. Trying to drill a centered hole into the shaft end of the motor will be very difficuly to do. depth is too far to see acurately and hardened metal is the most difficult to start a drill hole and keep centered. In addition, any shavings from the drilling that may fall into the motor wouild be devastating. I have an industrial drill press (6 foot tall) and I would be afraid to try drilling that way


Thanks for the input! I was trying to figure out a better way. By shear pin, I assume you mean a rollpin, the spring steel rolled pins? Or do you mean solid (what I would consider a driftpin).

That might work, and if not, I can always consider tapping the rollpin hole, and threadlocking some hardened screws into it.

NOTE - my motor does not have a removable shaft. Here are pics of what I got on Ebay:

















I'm sure I can unbolt the endplate and find a splined center shaft like most Crown forklift motors, but this one already had the endplate and shaft, so I went with it. The gear was circlipped on, so it's out of the way now.


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## Alex Everett (Dec 26, 2007)

Yes by all means keep the end plate with the bearing assembly and convert your pully to go on it.

Update ----- First un-controlled test today (no controller yet) all went as planned. Did a 24 volt set up for test but had low charge on batteries. IT MOVED AND BLADES TURNED. YEEEEEEEEEE HAW Cant wait for remaining components to arrivwe so I can get some green cutting done.


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## Alex Everett (Dec 26, 2007)

Sorry, I was so happy that my mower worked, I forgot to answer your question. Yes when I say Shear pin I mean roll pin as it is hollow and stands a better chance of shearing upon impact with a solid object that you may run over. A solid pin may or may not shear as easilly and could result in motor damage with unwanted impact of blade (depending upon tension of belt of course). I am having trouble determining from the photo if your output shaft is hardened steel (the gear obviously is). It does not look like it but I have been fooled before. If it is you may have to get a serious bit (carbon tipped titanium) but they are very expensive . Get only the one you need and not the entire $500.00 set or simply take it to a machine shop that can do it for you. They can also supply the corrrect shear pin.


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

EL Escort said:


> Alex Everett
> 
> I'm just a few days behind you on the mower. I have the Club Car 48 volt motor. A couple of battery cores for the fit and need to follow up on 2 junk golf carts which hopefully one might have a Curtis controller on it. I'll post pics on my thread soon.


Hey Alex, EL and others,

I thought I had better mention something to you guys doing rider mower electric conversions. It is a neat way to start learning EVs. I did one about 15 yrs ago. BUT, these things can be dangerous. They can cause injury or worse. Realize that the electric motor, like a GC motor, will provide enough torque to overpower the friction brake. The one I did had a single disc on the axle. I had an old floor sweeper motor. Those golf cart motors will have 2 or 3 times the torque. No way could the little friction brake stop the motor from propelling the tractor.

Most controllers, like the Curtis, have an input for an interlock signal. Or as I call it, a permissive signal. This input needs to be used. When the signal is not present, the controller shuts off. You need to put a microswitch on the brake pedal. And on the seat. Otherwise someone can get hurt easily. If you drive under a tree branch which is too low and it pins you to the rear of the tractor your first reaction is to hit the brake. It will not stop you unless the motor is turned off. And then if you do get knocked off the tractor, a seat switch will stop it from mowing down your children.

Be safe.

major


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## Alex Everett (Dec 26, 2007)

Thanks Major, for the note of caution. Safty is allways first order of business.

I had thought about that particular situation also. My solution was actually a simple one. A power cutt off safty pin attatched to a wrist rope. Yes the exact device used on my Jet Ski. It is going to be wired in to the ign switch circut to cut ign signal to the 48 volt solenoid. It will kill the motor when pulled out. I have allready wired in the seat safty swich to the same circut. Motor will not run unless *DRIVER IS IN SEAT* and *PIN IS IN DASH*.

Thanks Lexus.
I will start working on a video and get the teenager to figure out how to load it on that U-ube thing for me.


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## MarxNutz (Apr 5, 2008)

I am doing a very similar project using a 36 volt motor from an electric go-kart. My problem is that the motor has a sprocket on the shaft and it doesn't want to come off. Also, the shaft is 5/8" diameter and the original dual pulleys are for a 1" shaft. I am trying to figure out how I can mate these things, or should I do some engineering to make use of the sprocket? i.e.: mod the system to accept a chain drive?


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## MarxNutz (Apr 5, 2008)

BTW, congratulations on your test run! I'm looking forward to getting mine ready for its first ride as an electric!


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## talonts (Apr 11, 2008)

major said:


> Most controllers, like the Curtis, have an input for an interlock signal. Or as I call it, a permissive signal. This input needs to be used. When the signal is not present, the controller shuts off. You need to put a microswitch on the brake pedal. And on the seat. Otherwise someone can get hurt easily. If you drive under a tree branch which is too low and it pins you to the rear of the tractor your first reaction is to hit the brake. It will not stop you unless the motor is turned off. And then if you do get knocked off the tractor, a seat switch will stop it from mowing down your children.
> 
> Be safe.
> 
> major


My wiring diagram already includes the ignition switch, seat switch, and foot pedal switch, ALL which must be on for the motor to spin - so even moving my foot off the pedal will shut it down. And I'm using a pot throttle that won't let it start at full throttle.

I believe in overkill ;-)


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## Alex Everett (Dec 26, 2007)

MarxNutz said:


> My problem is that the motor has a sprocket on the shaft and it doesn't want to come off.......
> 
> {Pneumatic cutt off tool (air compressor required) will cut it then pry it off.}
> 
> ...


Chain drive on lawn mower would be suicide No way to move it across yard or onto trailer without blades turning.


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## Alex Everett (Dec 26, 2007)

My pot switch will be connected to the existing throttle cable. My unit only has a clutch/brake pedal and Wife allready knows how to operate the previously I.C.E. equipment.


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## Alex Everett (Dec 26, 2007)

update.....
My older batteries that I had laying around will not work for me. I charged them all to 12 volt and hooked up three of them to test sytem. System pwered up real well. Voltage drop from 38.5 on full charge to 18.5 within a couple of minutes. Turn off motor and I am back to near 28 volts. That is unacceptable for me.

Time to hit up Interstate for some new batteries.


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## Hayes (May 27, 2008)

Great Job... i've taken on a project..first one.. to convert a friend's.. he's tuning his up twice a year..and has had enough.

I'm leaning towards lift truck pump motor at 24 Volts...

So do you think the non-controller method is causing you battery woes?? Sounds like a real dollar winner for this project..

Intersted to know where you would spend 200 dollars on batteries and your thoughts on the 24 volt Lift Truck motor.

Hayes Myers,

ALS Incorporated
www.alsincorporated.com


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## Alex Everett (Dec 26, 2007)

Hayes said:
So do you think the non-controller method is causing you battery woes?? Sounds like a real dollar winner for this project..

Alex:
Could very well be. I do know that my batteries are very weak and I am going to use brand new better quality wiring when my controller gets here, just for now, everything is in the testing stage.

Hayes Said: Intersted to know where you would spend 200 dollars on batteries and your thoughts on the 24 volt Lift Truck motor

Alex:
24 volt lift truck motor (depending on model) is probably much more substantial than a club car motor. Golf carts weigh 600-1000 lbs. Fork lifts weigh 2400 lbs and up. As long as you can attain 3500-4000 R.P.M.s, it should do fine. For a 24 volt system you could easilly buy two good quality deep cycle batteries for yours with that amount of money. Depending on availiability, You may want to consider four, six volt batteries. Plenty of room to store them, better performance (from what I have read here) and longer run time. Check out the battery threads here and you can get a better picture than what I can portray.


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## MarxNutz (Apr 5, 2008)

I tried an experiment... I used one of those tools that you use to flange a copper pipe, cos it's basically the same action as a gear puller. Miracle of miracles, it worked! I successfully pulled the sprocket without having to destroy it! Too bad I have to go out of town for two days, cos I could have worked on my project instead.  Well, there is always the weekend...


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## Hayes (May 27, 2008)

Any updates on this project?


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## Alex Everett (Dec 26, 2007)

An injury has me sidelined for the next week or so. I am not allowed outside (Warden Wife won't let me) by Drs. orders. Have all the brand new 2 guage wires, 48 volt dash meter, 48 volt solenoid and 48 volt controller. Pot switch is on the way but have not picked up the batteries yet


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## siamsa (Feb 10, 2009)

I am looking to build an electronic version of my craftsman yard tractor. I am curious to find out how you did and if you can help me get started. Very much the newbie here.


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## zig06 (Aug 3, 2008)

I agree, do leave us hanging!, how did this work out? Any others out there with working EV mowers?


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## aproldan (Mar 26, 2009)

glad to see others taking interest in converting their rideons into electric... i have done 3 but only one for cutting the other 2 are for riding and hauling stuff... they are a lot of fun to convert and even more fun to ride... hope to be of anyhelp to others in here.... here is a link to one of my vids with all 3 tractors running
and my favorite one


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## cgates30 (Jun 6, 2009)

I'm interested in converting my Yardman Yardbug to electric. Can somebody point me in the right direction regarding the necessary components and good pieces of equipment to consider? Is a DC electric motor, switch/contactor, batteries and cable enough? Or do I need a motor controller? What about using the components from an old electric golf cart?


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## Batterypoweredtoad (Feb 5, 2008)

Does anyone have a link to a source for individual deck/blade motors? I think surplus center used to carry them. One of the previous mower threads had a link, but none of my searches have turned up any results.
Thanks!


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## DIYguy (Sep 18, 2008)

cgates30 said:


> I'm interested in converting my Yardman Yardbug to electric. Can somebody point me in the right direction regarding the necessary components and good pieces of equipment to consider? Is a DC electric motor, switch/contactor, batteries and cable enough? Or do I need a motor controller? What about using the components from an old electric golf cart?


I haven't got into this yet...but I would like to do the same perhaps this winter. I think the system from a golf cart would be perfect. Motor, controller, contactor, pot etc.


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## Jimdear2 (Oct 12, 2008)

DIYguy said:


> I haven't got into this yet...but I would like to do the same perhaps this winter. I think the system from a golf cart would be perfect. Motor, controller, contactor, pot etc.


I just finished a conversion of an older Cub Cadet, The cub may not be one of the easiest tractor to convert, but when you are done you will have something that will last. 

The one I did may have been over 40 years old and right now it runs and drives better then my one year old Husky. There are a wealth of parts and information available for the Cubs because of their toughness and the fact that they are one of the few tractors that will survive quarter scale tractor pulling.

You can generally find them without engines for $100.00 or less. They are very hard tractor to break so they can generally be broght back to life easily. 

I used a rebuilt Prestolite HiLo pump motor and driect drive to the transaxle for mine, but the clutch and pressure plate system would be easy to adapt to an electric motor. I have an Alltrax 7245 controller and four 40ah agm batteries and a Tyco contactor. I put in an Albright Disconnect. I mounted all of the components under the hood on a plastic cutting board. 

Two batteries went under the tractor on their sides in a combo footboard mountand battery rack and two under the seat/femder unit that doubles as a seat mount.

See the attached pictures of various stages of the conversion. Mine was done as a pulling tractor, and I think I can safely say it turnned out nice even with a quick rattle can paint job. You can see from a view of the transaxle why these things last, Thats a BIG lump of cast iron

Somre other tractors that should convert well are Wheelhorse, Allis Chalmers, Bolens, Sears Surburban and any other with a real steel frame cast iron transmission/axle and cast iron front axle.

If you want something that will last, stay away from hydros and anything with an aluminium transaxle unless you use a small motor, If you want something your grandkid will still be using, go with the older "real" garden tractors.


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## cgates30 (Jun 6, 2009)

That's a nice looking conversion you have there! Can you give more info on the conversion, maybe links for the parts and how much they should cost, etc?

Thanks!


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## Jimdear2 (Oct 12, 2008)

cgates30 said:


> That's a nice looking conversion you have there! Can you give more info on the conversion, maybe links for the parts and how much they should cost, etc?
> 
> Thanks!


cgates30

I'll see what I can do tomorrow when I get home from work.

Jim


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## slawking (Jun 12, 2009)

zig06 said:


> I agree, do leave us hanging!, how did this work out? Any others out there with working EV mowers?


Here is a link to a video of my recently operating Sears Craftsman Conversion...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GEam4PWM2AA

- Bob


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## PartsMan (Aug 20, 2009)

You really need constant rpm for the blades.
Has anybody done an inverter and AC motor?
It would try and run steady rpm all the time.

We have a John Deere 90 out back. It has separate blade motors.

If you are feeling lazy you could get this (caution product plug) http://www.hustlerturf.com/products.html?sobi2Task=sobi2Details&catid=9&sobi2Id=19


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## Dennis (Feb 25, 2008)

Way back when I was just a beginning member here I helped out someone who wanted a conversion with a tractor to electric. He needed a controller and wiring diagram to build his tractor. So I gave him a free Alltrax AXE4834 and give him a wiring diagram that I drew up in MS paint. So I suppose you guys are also looking for a wiring diagram. So here it is:














This circuit simply performs the AND function for safety as follows: the key switch, foot switch, seat switch, and throttle pot box lever switch must all be ON or HIGH in order for the lawn mower's traction motor to be active. The Key switch also engages the Negative side contactor. The reason a negative side contactor is used is so an extra safe guard is in place in case one of the contactors has a catastrophic failure such as welded contacts which makes it permanently ON. Also this actives the pre-charge circuit when the switch is turned on to avoid sparks being present when the user hooks up battery terminals to the batteries if this contactor was not present. Sparks at the batteries is not such a great idea so it also serves to reduce explosion hazards.

There is a warning that anyone who uses this wiring diagram should adhere to and that is the THE CONTROLLER MUST HAVE THE HIGH PEDDLE BEFORE POWER UP LOCK OUT ENABLED. FAILURE TO ENABLE THIS FEATURE IN THE CONTROLLER CAN RESULT IN SERIOUS INJURY OR DEATH IN WHERE THE USER CAN HAVE ALL SAFETY SWITCHES ACTIVE EXCEPT THE KEY SWITCH WHICH THE USER MAY CUT THE KEY SWITCH TO THE "ON" POSITION RESULTING IN INSTANT TAKE OFF OF THE LAWN MOWER WITHOUT WARNING.


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## slawking (Jun 12, 2009)

Dennis said:


> Way back when I was just a beginning member here I helped out someone who wanted a conversion with a tractor to electric. He needed a controller and wiring diagram to build his tractor. So I gave him a free Alltrax AXE4834 and give him a wiring diagram that I drew up in MS paint. So I suppose you guys are also looking for a wiring diagram. So here it is:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


As useful as this diagram is (and it is very useful), for Riding Lawnmower Purposes using a PERMANENT MAGNET SERIES MOTOR, a Controller is NOT desirable. I bought and ALLTRAX controller and found it totally NON-DESIREABLE. This is because of two major factors, 1) It is an unnecessary added expense (~$400), and 2) MOST IMPORTANTLY it forces the blades to run at VARYING SPEED (throttle dependent) which is HIGHLY UNDESIRABLE when mowing the lawn. A constant blade velocity when mowing the lawn is HIGHLY DESIRABLE when mowing the lawn, and both everyday Gas push mowers and riding lawnmower bear witness. 

I am in fact planning to use the ALLTRAX controller for other purposes (as a tractor for hauling, etc), so the above diagram IS USEFUL for those kinds of applications.

Regards

Bob


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## Bentzon (Sep 5, 2009)

Doesnt most modern lawnmowers have a hydrostatic transmission for the movement. 
So all you would need a controller for is motor protection and low/high voltage cutoff.


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## slawking (Jun 12, 2009)

Bentzon said:


> Doesnt most modern lawnmowers have a hydrostatic transmission for the movement.
> So all you would need a controller for is motor protection and low/high voltage cutoff.


My riding mower is an older double pulley belt design, these are still widely used today, and are some of the less expensive models out there. I would think that hydrostatic transmissions would still need to have a way to make sure that both the mower and blades move at a constant rate. 

Do hydrostatic transmissions allow you to change gears?

If not, then a double contactor arrangement COULD be used in lieu of a controller for the HI/LOW voltage arrangement you suggest.


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## Bentzon (Sep 5, 2009)

Its like a automatic gearbox with hydraulics instead of gears. They got belts from the motor to the hydrostatic transmission and to the blades. The blades are engaged by a magnetic clutch. So the input to the transmission and to the blades are locked by the pulleys. You can lower the rpm of the motor but it doesnt make much sense to do.

This is how its made on the one i got so my idea, if i ever get time to make it, was to just run a electric motor at full voltage for constant rpm all the time. Bolted to the original belt pulleys(where the ICE motor was) and let the OEM parts do the rest.
Probably not the most efficient solution but its pretty straight forward. I dont really see how you would run direct drive to both wheel and blades without getting poor cutting performance at low speeds. Expensive way to do it was to have one or two motors for the blades and one for the drive.


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## Dennis (Feb 25, 2008)

> As useful as this diagram is (and it is very useful), for Riding Lawnmower Purposes using a PERMANENT MAGNET SERIES MOTOR, a Controller is NOT desirable. I bought and ALLTRAX controller and found it totally NON-DESIREABLE. This is because of two major factors, 1) It is an unnecessary added expense (~$400), and 2) MOST IMPORTANTLY it forces the blades to run at VARYING SPEED (throttle dependent) which is HIGHLY UNDESIRABLE when mowing the lawn. A constant blade velocity when mowing the lawn is HIGHLY DESIRABLE when mowing the lawn, and both everyday Gas push mowers and riding lawnmower bear witness.
> 
> I am in fact planning to use the ALLTRAX controller for other purposes (as a tractor for hauling, etc), so the above diagram IS USEFUL for those kinds of applications.
> 
> ...


Bob, the controller is only for the traction motor for speed control and current limit. Current limit is very important both to protect the motor from excessive current demand and to protect the batteries. If a large power resistor is cheaper then be all means build you a resistor based speed controller. It would be KISS design if you went that route, but do not expect it to be very efficient...

For the blades a better idea is to use separate electric motors connected to a type of "sacrifice" coupling that sheers keyways if the blades hit something hard so as not to damage the motors. Btw, there is no such thing as a PM series wound motor. A series wound motor has the armature circuit wired in series to the field circuit so it is always a 100% electromagnet type motor. If the motor uses permanent magnets for the field then it is a PM motor.


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## slawking (Jun 12, 2009)

Thanks Dennis for the clarification of definition of series wound vs PM motors. I guess my point has less to do with the need for efficiency than for the need to maintain a constant mower speed and blade velocity. Adding a throttle to constantly adjust the motor RPM is not really conducive to that end (in my view). 
As built, the mower runs for about 1 1/2 hour. In my part of the country the electricity used to recharge after that amount of time costs about the same as a pint of gasoline, so I guess it is efficient enough (for me at least). And its dead simple to maintain.

Regards,

Bob


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## sjc (Oct 28, 2008)

Has anyone done a tractor conversion and used a power-takeoff (PTO)?

I'm looking at doing a conversion of a JD with a mower and snowblower. Is this any different than just driving the mower blades at constant speed?

sc
--


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## partytrain (Jan 7, 2010)

Ok guys... after finding this site I would like to see if maybe I could get some help on a project. I see many of you have converted the riding mowers to electric and could probably give me some insight.
I am wanting to convert a craftsman tractor with hydostatic drive to electric... but not to cut grass to use an electric train for kids to ride on. I already have a great design using a craftsman tractor but would like an electric one to use inside malls during the cold months.

From what I have read I should use a 24v forklift motor with a controller. I was just wondering the run times I would get using 4 or more batteries... and also how to "connect" the motor to the drive train since some have done it. 

My thought is using the belt system already there and attach the motor using the same pulley from the gas engine if possible.....

Any help would be appreciated!
Thanks!


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## Jimdear2 (Oct 12, 2008)

partytrain said:


> Ok guys... after finding this site I would like to see if maybe I could get some help on a project. I see many of you have converted the riding mowers to electric and could probably give me some insight.
> I am wanting to convert a craftsman tractor with hydostatic drive to electric... but not to cut grass to use an electric train for kids to ride on. I already have a great design using a craftsman tractor but would like an electric one to use inside malls during the cold months.
> 
> From what I have read I should use a 24v forklift motor with a controller. I was just wondering the run times I would get using 4 or more batteries... and also how to "connect" the motor to the drive train since some have done it.
> ...


An indoor electric partytrain, a very nice idea for kiddy rides in a mall.

Here are some thoughts. Sorry about the length.

I think a hydrostatic is going to be difficult to drive because you will have two different power controls. You will need to add motor power then add load with the hydro then add motor power then more load. With a ICE the governor does this for you. You set the throttle to an RPM and the governor controls the throttle. A manual trans or direct drive may be a better choice. 

With a hydro you will need to make sure you never have the electric motor under high power when you put the hydro lever into neutral or the motor will run away and maybe blow up.

If you go with a belt drive manual you can dispense with clutch and such. Once you get the primary reduction into the trans right you will find that the torque of the motor will be sufficient.

Remember when selecting gearing that electrics make the most power at low rpm up to about midway into there RPM range where ICE the power is more to the higher end of their range.

I would select a motor with power specifications similar to the D&D ES-15A for what you want. I can pull a 5 to 6 ton load on a skid plate at about 5 mph with 48 volts and 350 amps with my pulling tractor with a similar motor. There are a good selection of purpose built motors as well as a number of Lift Truck (Hi-Lo) motors out there.

Please look at the conversion I did shown earlier in the thread. I used a 6.7 inch, 24 - 36 volt motor on 48 volts and it works very well. I stress the Cub Cadet because it is built to last and will take more load then any garden tractor out there. As a note, 95% of the sucessful pulling garden tractors are built on Cub Cadet Transaxles, no matter what Sheet Metal they have on them. Also since the tractor is a shaft drive conversion is a snap. Another nice thing is the wheel bolt pattern is the same as 5 on 41/2 same as Ford and Chrysler passenger cars.

On brakes, NO garden tractor has brakes sufficient to stop a load like you are maybe thinking about and remember an electric motor has NO engine brakeing. The best you can do is get the mechanical disc brakes discs available on some of the hydro tractors and put a good hudraulic caliper and master cylinder on them. Maybe electric trailer brakes on some of the towed wagons? You sure don't want to run one of those poor kiddies down.

Batteries, you will want BIG deep cycle batteries for a day of running around the malls. The nice thing about the train idea is you can put batteries into the towed carts.

Your train idea has me thinking about next years town parade. I can get a few of those BIG FOOT yard wagons from Harbor Freight and build farm wagon flat beds on them and make a miniture hay ride to pull with my Cub Cadet puller. 

So you will need basically the same things as a car conversion . . . PLUS EXTRAS.

A good motor, for this application some rated at 6 - 10 HP continious, RPM range around 3600, you should run at 48 volts (that is the highest "SAFE" voltage accepted by insurance underwriters) <bet you forgot about insurance>. No lower then 36 volts for efficiency.
Look at external cooling for the motor or be sure the motor is rated for the loads and RPM you are looking at.
What ever you need to connect the choice of motor to the choice of tractor transaxle
A good controller with a sufficient heat sink to not go into overtemp shutdown/cutback (big loads create heat).
Zero to 5k ohm Pot box or some other throttle device.
At least 1 good high amprage contactor (two are better-safer) with pre charge for the controller
Suffient fusing
Safety interlocks everywhere. Best is a wrist strap so no one can just jump on and go.
Mechanical disconnects fot the motor contactor in case you train comes unhooked.
Lots Of Batteries, without knowing the total weight, speed and other factors it will be hard to estimate what kind of watt hours you will need.
Depending on your frequency of use suffecient battery charge capacity. (Unsupervised battery chargers are expensive)
I know I've forgotten things so others please chime in


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## partytrain (Jan 7, 2010)

Wow! Thanks For the quick response! Let me explain a little more detail and maybe it may help with the info you have given.....

1) The insurance is a snap as long as it is under 6mph and has an emergency stop and of course a fire extinguisher.... 

2) I understand the neutral position like you talked about.... And also the brakes (very Important) ... That is why I use the Hydrodrive on the one I have now....The Hydrodrive acts as a speed control and also a braking system..It gently slows the tractor as you decrease the speed and applies the brake in neutral....I still have the normal pedal brake also but dont use it except for a parking brake.... Just need to figure out the slow down the RPM of the motor at the same time so like you said the motor doesnt over REV...

3) According to the Specs the current Gas Engine on the Train it has a 3300 RPM & a MAX Torque of 9.76 ft/lbs - it is a 20hp motor

4) As far as the Batteries- I have plenty of room in the engine compartment and feel I could fit at least 2-4 Big Tractor Batteries or 6-8 deep cycles - Or can even build a Battery Rack once the Gas Engine is removed. My other thought was a "Battery Car" made to look like a coal car that was specificly for the Batteries.

5) My biggest concern is Safety first then Runtime - most events last 4 hours - as far as a mall, it would need to last 8hrs but my average ride is only 2.5 minutes - Speed isn't too big of a problem 3-5mph is great for the train now... 

6) I found what looks like a modified mower called a BlueOx but it is $10,000 Way over my budget 

Thanks again for the help...and maybe we can make this thing work and have it in every parade!


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## Jimdear2 (Oct 12, 2008)

partytrain said:


> 2) I understand the neutral position like you talked about.... And also the brakes (very Important) ... That is why I use the Hydrodrive on the one I have now....The Hydrodrive acts as a speed control and also a braking system..It gently slows the tractor as you decrease the speed and applies the brake in neutral....I still have the normal pedal brake also but dont use it except for a parking brake.... Just need to figure out the slow down the RPM of the motor at the same time so like you said the motor doesnt over REV...


Partytrain,
I think ou will find that a hydro is going to be very dificult to use. I think we need someone who has done or tried a tractor with a hydro trans driven by an electric motor to chime in.

My feeling is that you would need some form of electronic RPM control that would maintain the motor at a specific RPM, like the governor on a gas (ICE) engine, I.E. whatever RPM that was set by the operator, to make a hydro work with an electric motor in a heavly loaded venu. Otherwise what you would be doing is stepping on a throttle adding load with the hydro lever or pedal till the motor starts to slow down, then adding more throttle and more hydro etc.etc.etc. Constant adjustment. The electronic control could be built I suppose, but I have no idea how or what it would cost.

Do not expect any form of motor braking like you get with a ICE gas engine when using electric motors, Unless you go for regeneative braking the motor just freewheels when power is cut. Regenerative braking is a whole different story and considerably more expensiive. Again it can be done with a sepex motor and controller, just bring money.



partytrain said:


> 3) According to the Specs the current Gas Engine on the Train it has a 3300 RPM & a MAX Torque of 9.76 ft/lbs - it is a 20hp motor


If you go electric you will be pleasently supprised all of the torque is at the low end of the RPM range generally a 10 continous HP electric motor will have maximum torque in the range of 20 + ft lbs. amd it occures just where you need it for good pulling power. My pulling tractors never stall out they just go slower and slower until they loose traction. You will be pleasently supprised at the low end power.[/quote]



partytrain said:


> 4) As far as the Batteries- Runtime Safety ect.


Before we get into batteries anf the other stuff, we need to know more about the train, approx. total max gross weight and what motor/controller/voltage you plan on using. I'm pretty bad at the math to figure that out but if you go to the battery forum, people there will help you. Same with the motor and controller forums.[/quote] 



partytrain said:


> 6) I found what looks like a modified mower called a BlueOx but it is $10,000 Way over my budget .


Are you maybe talking about the "Electric Ox" havent seen the BlueOx yet but I'll look


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## gor (Nov 25, 2009)

mechanical trany - would be better 4 ev conversion - with hydro you stuck with speed and torque on what hydro set - if overspeed it (>3600)- hydrofluid will foam and cause cavitation; 
- but ...we got what we've got (better than nothing : as they say: best one (for conversion) - free one) : )))) ; electrical part - most important, trany could be replaced later (or whole tractor - often people just giving ovey lanmower with bad engine ; 


ariens makes el.mower with hydro http://www.ariens.com/products_lawn/l_amp/Pages/default.aspx
www.ampbyariens.com 


p.s. blades speed also normally set considering 3600 rpm constant from engine, 27500-28500 feet per min. - blade tip speed; if faster -it can blow from under deck and instead of suction- just lay grass down (bad cut) 


guys, can you tell any (approximate) numbers - on your mower - how much power goes to the blades (kW, amps) - how much time batteries would last with blades on/off etc)? 
i know it hard to tell (all depends of terrain, conditions, how hard you push, etc - but at least some estimation, observation - your personal experience : )
thank you


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

Jimdear2 said:


> Before we get into batteries anf the other stuff, we need to know more about the train, approx. total max gross weight and what motor/controller/voltage you plan on using.


Hey Jim and Party,

We had an e-tractor we used to pull a train. It would be 4 cars, each weighing about 1200-1500 lbs. Yes, like a 3 ton train. Trailers on pneumatic tires. Tractor used a 2 or 3 HP PM motor from an old floor sweeper. Had a 36V, 400A Curtis. Six 12V, 50 Ahr batteries in series/parallel. Darn thing even went up hill. Had a 3 spd forward w rev axle. Was belt drive. Later on changed to a chain drive. Was an old ElecTrak E8 (maybe E10).

I'd suggest you find a tractor to use without hydraulic drive. Just belt drive the motor to the transaxle. 36 volts should be fine. Longer run time needed; look at bigger batteries like for floor sweepers. 400A Curtis or maybe the 225A. Charger should not cost much. Golf cart charger or Minn Kota. Not hard to do or expensive.

Regards,

major


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## aproldan (Mar 26, 2009)

i have done 3 tractors and one mini ride one and i will only use a mechanical tranny. the 3 tractors were used for pulling stuff and the mini is used for cutting grass.. you have more control on your speed and range.. when pulling heavy loads i would put it in 1st or 2nd gear.. when the kids just wanted to guff the back they would use 3rd-5th gear.. to me the mechanical tranny are more reliable.. and much easier to work with. and i use a controller on all my tractors.. and here may be a big shocker to most of you but i only use a 50amp controller... now my mini i use 2 motors one for the cutting deck and one for the drive.. the drive system uses a controller and the cutting deck uses an on/off switch.. works great.. here are 2 vids of my toys
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mvhqsWVk_Nk
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Jga3nXYsIA


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## Jimdear2 (Oct 12, 2008)

Partytrain,

Since you have to use the hydro, I had a thought about a way of using it. I would like others with more experiance to chime in also on this idea. I might be all wet and totally wrong.

If you treat it like a manual, I mean find a "low gear" position for the hydro load lever that allows you to pull your load using the torque of the motor to get you up to a low speed then a "high gear" position for higher speeds. 

Here is, how I would set it up 

*In the hydro neutral position* I would use a micro switch to cut out the motor contactor. e.g. if you step on the throttle, nothing happens. I would use a controller like an Alltrax that has high pedal disable (this keeps the vehicle from moving forward if you should be steping on the throttle pedal when the main contactor closes)

*Move the lever forward to a set low position,* use a shift gate to lock the lever in that position. Chose a position so that when full motor power is applied the belt wont slip and the pump won't blow from the load. You can then use the throttle to get the train moving. Once the train is moving.

*Move the lever forward to a set high position,* use a shift gate to lock the lever in that position. you should be able to leave the lever there and use the throttle to drive around.

*Reverse same thing*

In other words, you would be driving the thing like a two speed maunmatic. if you do that I think you could simplify the driving and keep from blowing the pump

The other alternative is to get and swap in a manual trans from a similar garden tractor at a dismantler yard or look in the Surplus Center Catalog.

You don't need a clutch, just a direct drive, remember the motor stops when you let off the throttle.

I drive my electric all around in top (3RD) gear and pull in second or low. the only load control I need is the throttle.


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## partytrain (Jan 7, 2010)

Jim - I do like your response.... I really think that setup would work with the hydro.... I am trying to find a used manual drive craftsman to try it on to see what would work better for my application. 
I have been reading in all the forums about the motors and controllers....so many different kinds.. 
Which motor would you recommend trying first? 
Also do you think the 4d or 8d batteries would give me the runtime I'm looking for...or another type?
Thanks for all the help guys... I'm just about ready to try the project in the next few weeks...


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## Jimdear2 (Oct 12, 2008)

Partytrain. one real good hint is see if ther is a branch of the EEA or some other EV organization in your area. You will find a lot of help there.



partytrain said:


> Jim - I do like your response.... I really think that setup would work with the hydro...


It might also blow up the pump. I am suggesting you try it only if you are unable to get a replacement manual trans.



partytrain said:


> I am trying to find a used manual drive craftsman to try it on to see what would work better for my application.


Check on the internet there are a number of commercial garden tractor dismantlers. Call one. 

Look on Surplus Center's web site;

https://www.surpluscenter.com/sort.asp?UID=2156011114192894&catname=&byKeyword=yes&search=transaxle

They have a number of transaxles.

Check you local garden tractor shops for blown engine junkers.

Flea markets, swap meets, etc.[/quote]




partytrain said:


> I have been reading in all the forums about the motors and controllers....so many different kinds..
> Which motor would you recommend trying first?


Stay away from golf cart motors that do not have a drive end bearing and shaft. You get stuck trying to make one . . . really nasty.
Continue your research. Read through the posts in the MOTOR forum by Jim Husted on selecting a lift truck motor and finding a good one. I sure wish I had before I bought my first motor. When you have an idea about the questions you need to ask and the specs you need to present I.E. weight, speed, etc. Post a question. The really experianced guys (unlike me) WILL help you find the best motor and controller. One that will be best suited for your needs and budget.

Same thing about controllers. Have some idea what you need to ask and go to the controller forum 



partytrain said:


> Also do you think the 4d or 8d batteries would give me the runtime I'm looking for...or another type?


Same for the batteries. I'm afraid I don't know what the 4d and 8d terminology means. I can tell you that you will want deep cycle batteries for this project and like everything else, you get what you pay for.

Good luck and have fun. I'll pop in when I have something to contribute.


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## partytrain (Jan 7, 2010)

Aproldan - Just watched the videos on the tractors you have built......
Have a few questions if you don't mind....
Which transaxel did you use? How did you mount the motor? 
Also what kind of run time are you getting?
Could you post a pic on how you adapted the motor to work if you used the factory axel set up?

Thanks for your help!


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## aproldan (Mar 26, 2009)

partytrain said:


> Aproldan - Just watched the videos on the tractors you have built......
> Have a few questions if you don't mind....
> Which transaxel did you use? How did you mount the motor?
> Also what kind of run time are you getting?
> ...


partytrain: the motor on the murray in mounted under the seat.. range depends on what gear i am using 1st gear(4mph) i get 45min. 5th gear (17mph) i get 25min.. but just incase your thinking that may not be much range it's perfect run time `for the kid and what i need it for... before i forget i am only using 12volt 12amp hr batteries.. i'm sure you will want to use much bigger ones..it uses a SPICER 5 SPEED(i removed the pulley and replaced it with a sprocket and chain. 
here is my murray
the Montgomery Wards Tractor the motor is under the steer column and it used a peerless 5speed which is now in my mini... 
and the green tractor in mounted where the I.C.E was the is the only one i left the pulley on... here is a closer look of my tractors


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## gor (Nov 25, 2009)

aproldan said:


> partytrain: the motor on the murray in mounted under the seat.. range depends on what gear i am using *1st gear(4mph) i get 45min. 5th gear (17mph) i get 25min*.. but just incase your thinking that may not be much range it's perfect run time `for the kid and what i need it for... before i forget i am only using 12volt 12amp hr batteries.. i'm sure you will want to use much bigger ones..it uses a SPICER 5 SPEED(i removed the pulley and replaced it with a sprocket and chain.
> here is my murray
> the Montgomery Wards Tractor the motor is under the steer column and it used a peerless 5speed which is now in my mini...
> and the green tractor in mounted where the I.C.E was the is the only one i left the pulley on... here is a closer look of my tractors


 hi, Aproldan
you still have a deck : )))) - can you tell hour range with blades on/off; (load on the blades, at least approximately)?
thank you


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## aproldan (Mar 26, 2009)

gor said:


> hi, Aproldan
> you still have a deck : )))) - can you tell hour range with blades on/off; (load on the blades, at least approximately)?
> thank you


 the green tractor is the only one i left the cuttingdeck on and at the time i converted it, i didn't have a motor strong enough for the 38" deck.. so the one i tried kind of flopped( but i expected that)... this passed october i made the mini ride on mower and this is what i'm am using on it..
for the cutting deck is 20" blade being powered by a 1.5hp [email protected] 24 volts.. it spins @3000rpm... as long as you keep the blades shape you won't strain the motor... she cuts very nicely when the grass is 2-4" high... now i have cut grass 12" high with the mini with nice shape blades, but i was also going snail pace... if you get the timing down with the drive speed and the cutting deck she will run perfect but it is tough... i have @ 12v/60amp hr batteries running the cutting deck and the drive system at the same time and getting 55 minutes before i need to throw it on charge... when i want to fast charge it i use my car battery charger and it set on 20amps.. it takes 1 hour for each batteries( only have one car charger ) so 2 hours later i am off and cutting again... but is if i throw it on my deep charger it takes 4.5 hours to charge.. sorry i'm just rambling... anyway the way i figure things out you would need around 3-4 hp motor to work a 38" deck.. 5 hp to work a 42" or higher... but my opinion use 2 motors one dedicated to the cutting deck and on for the drive system...BTW the drive system on the mini is only 500 watt motor... so it doesn't use that much power from the batteries and i keep it between 1st - 3rd gear depending on the height of the grass... keep it simple and your project will last a long time when finish... i hope this answers some of your questions if not let me know...


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## gor (Nov 25, 2009)

aproldan said:


> the green tractor is the only one i left the cuttingdeck on and at the time i converted it, i didn't have a motor strong enough for the *38" deck*.. so the one i tried kind of flopped( but i expected that)... this passed october i made the mini ride on mower and this is what i'm am using on it..
> for the cutting deck is *20" blade* being powered by a _*1.5hp [email protected] 24 volts.. it spins @3000rpm...*_ as long as you keep the blades shape you won't strain the motor... she cuts very nicely when the grass is 2-4" high... now i have cut grass 12" high with the mini with nice shape blades, but i was also going snail pace... if you get the timing down with the drive speed and the cutting deck she will run perfect but it is tough... i have @ *12v/60amp hr batteries* running the cutting deck and the drive system at the same time and getting *55 minutes* before i need to throw it on charge... when i want to fast charge it i use my car battery charger and it set on 20amps.. it takes 1 hour for each batteries( only have one car charger ) so 2 hours later i am off and cutting again... but is if i throw it on my deep charger it takes 4.5 hours to charge.. sorry i'm just rambling... anyway the way i figure things out you would need around _*3-4 hp motor to work a 38" deck.. 5 hp to work a 42" or higher...*_ but my opinion use 2 motors one dedicated to the cutting deck and on for the drive system...BTW the drive system on the mini is only 500 watt motor... so it doesn't use that much power from the batteries and i keep it between 1st - 3rd gear depending on the height of the grass... keep it simple and your project will last a long time when finish... i hope this answers some of your questions if not let me know...


thank you, A.
2 x 20'' blade: 1.5hp min, 2-4 hp [1-3kw] motor; 1-2 kw per 20''blade
cut+drive range: ~55min with 24v, 1.5hp [1.125 kw] at 3000 rpm motor & 2 x 12v 60ah batt.
so it takes about 1440 w (24v 60ah) batt. for 1125w motor for cut+drive (128%) 

i agree, though one motor system simpler and lighter for conversions, two (multi) motors would let us use low rpm torque and throttle/rpm/reverse control 

Aproldan, what do you think would be hour-range without blades-on (similar driving)?


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## aproldan (Mar 26, 2009)

gor said:


> Aproldan, what do you think would be hour-range without blades-on (similar driving)?


 without a cutting deck and just a drive system.. with the stock gear ratio i see a good 2-3 hours... i'm only getting a 55min run time because my battery is 9 years old... i know it should be dead but she still working and holding a charge @13.1 volts... i don't think you can find this series any more but they are Hawker energy SBS 60/2 .. the manufacture date on my batteries are 09/29/00
one thing you need to keep in mind with batteries.. do not use car batteries, they are made for putting out high amps for a short time.. where deep cycle batteries are designed to put out a constant flow for a long period of time... which is what you need for this kind of project...


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## gor (Nov 25, 2009)

aproldan said:


> without a cutting deck and just a drive system.. with the stock gear ratio i see a good 2-3 hours... i'm only getting a 55min run time because my battery is 9 years old... i know it should be dead but she still working and holding a charge @13.1 volts... i don't think you can find this series any more but they are Hawker energy SBS 60/2 .. the manufacture date on my batteries are 09/29/00
> one thing you need to keep in mind with batteries.. do not use car batteries, they are made for putting out high amps for a short time.. where deep cycle batteries are designed to put out a constant flow for a long period of time... which is what you need for this kind of project...


so, blades takes most of the power...
on one built http://ecorenovator.org/forum/proje...er-riding-lawn-mower-electric-conversion.html
it took10-25 amps to drive around and whole 25amps only to run blades in the air (spindle bearings and belts -new)

(i been wondering why el.mower manufacturers putting motors on top of the spindles directly ... range ?!... : ))))) ("hell with motors! - got all the beating, but might hold till warranty over"... ?! : ))))) (spindles, at least on pro mowers, got replaced once in a not very long while)


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## partytrain (Jan 7, 2010)

Aproldan-- On the motor most everyone is telling me to go with a 24-36v motor. I see the 12v you have on the murray seems to have plenty of power and speed... Which 12v motor are you using? 
I'm only looking to move at 5mph max with the train... And I think using the bateries in a 12volt state would help on the charging process so I wouldn't have to spend $$ on a 36v charger or have to remove the cables and charge them individualy.
The crafstman rear end looks very simular to the murray one... You stated you changed to chain and gear instead of belt... what was the main reason why?
Found a couple of used tractors on craigslist and will purchase one soon to start my electric train project....
Thanks!


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## aproldan (Mar 26, 2009)

partytrain said:


> Aproldan-- On the motor most everyone is telling me to go with a 24-36v motor. I see the 12v you have on the murray seems to have plenty of power and speed... Which 12v motor are you using?
> I'm only looking to move at 5mph max with the train... And I think using the bateries in a 12volt state would help on the charging process so I wouldn't have to spend $$ on a 36v charger or have to remove the cables and charge them individualy.
> The crafstman rear end looks very simular to the murray one... You stated you changed to chain and gear instead of belt... what was the main reason why?
> Found a couple of used tractors on craigslist and will purchase one soon to start my electric train project....
> Thanks!


ok partytrain: went back and read what you are trying to do with your project... before i start i will need to answer your questions in the quote..
the murray motor is not a 12 volt motor... it is a 48volt 1.5 hp.. you really don't want to use a 12 volt motor for your train. here's why if you find a 
12 volt/ 3 hp motor it will pull around 186 amps @stall which will heat the motor up and your wires. and that's without any kids on it. not good for the motor where if you use a 36 volt/ 3 hp motor it will only pull 62 amps @ stall.. hope you see where i'm getting at with this.. much safer for the kids and your motor...
as for me using chain rather than belt for me 2 reasons.. first and most important was for the kids the belt drive was too quiet and my kids would not hear the tractor coming toward them if you were not paying attention, so i put the chain drive on it so it would make noise and my kids kind hear it coming... it's not very loud but just the right level of noise for them.. second: with a belt drive, the tighter the belt the more amps it pulls @no load .. those are unnecessary amps being wasted.. chain drive barely pulls any amps @ no load.. here is what i mean. when i had the belt drive on the tractor in 5th gear it pulled 50 amps. when i switched the tractor to chain drive in 5th gear it only pulled 30 amps.. big difference,.so now you get a little longer range and your not straining the motor.. which means it will last much longer.. 
if you can stay in the 24-36 volt range it might be good for you because of battery weight... but try to distribute the weight and not put them all up front.. the more weight up front the hard it may be to steer. less weight the easier it is to steer.. my murray has only 20 lbs in front and i can steer with my palm not 2 hands.. it's so easy to steer it's kind of feels like power steering... as for chargers for over night charging you can use a regular scooter charger( i use one on my mini for over night charging when i know i will be cutting grass in the morning.. another thing slow charge is much better for batteries and they will last a long time... 
now how many kids are you looking to have on your train at one time the would help me and others here to determine what size motor you will need... i may be able to help you i have some motors here only used for a few hour for testing... i have a 36 volt/1.5 hp,this one is a heavy duty motor 1) 36 volt/2.5 hp.. anyway how many minutes for each ride and how often? 20 rides a day less more.. all input is need to get you the right set up.. sorry for such a long reply..
here is a pic i just took with my cel phone of the 2 motors i mentioned. the motor in the middle is the same one i have in the murray. notice how much smaller it is compared to the other 2..


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## robdunstan (Jan 10, 2010)

hello everyone,

i am partytrains business partner. he does all the mechanical stuff and i build the trains we sell. what we are trying to do ultimately is to come up with a electric version of our train to be used in malls and indoor events where the exhaust fumes aren't allowed. 

if anybody would like to see the train, it is on ebay. it is the one for 4999. the configuration is usually a engine, a open car, and a caboose. we would need to be able to add and additional open car to the setup. these trains are made for rentals and must be able to operate for at least 6-8 hours nonstop. the cars can hold roughly 4 to 8 children each, depending on the size of the child which is why we use DOT rated trailers. the cars are very easy to move and barely puts a strain on a 17 hp mower that we currently use as the engine power.

battery setup is not that critical as we can be very creative in designing a way to hold the batteries we will need. the fewer the better but if not, that's fine too.

we looked into the electric ox but the price of that thing made me almost pass out. 

we do appreciate all of the great advice and help that you have given us.

thanks,
robert


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## Jimdear2 (Oct 12, 2008)

robdunstan said:


> hello everyone,
> 
> i am partytrains business partner. he does all the mechanical stuff and i build the trains we sell. what we are trying to do ultimately is to come up with a electric version of our train to be used in malls and indoor events where the exhaust fumes aren't allowed.


Sounds like it can be done but be aware this is not going to be an inexpensive project. You can easily put a couple of grand into something like this, even if you shop for and find bargains. Batteries, Chargers and Controllers are very expensive.

A very good option, since you are selling these, is to spend a few dollars on a EV consultent. I don't remember the names offhand, go to the Technical forum and place a post asking who and where.



robdunstan said:


> If anybody would like to see the train, it is on ebay. it is the one for 4999.


I looked but couldn't find it. How about a link.



robdunstan said:


> The configuration is usually a engine, a open car, and a caboose. we would need to be able to add and additional open car to the setup. these trains are made for rentals and must be able to operate for at least 6-8 hours nonstop. the cars can hold roughly 4 to 8 children each, depending on the size of the child which is why we use DOT rated trailers. the cars are very easy to move and barely puts a strain on a 17 hp mower that we currently use as the engine power.


If you are looking for a inexpensive power option and you are willing to do any overhaul and custom fabrication work needed, you might take a look at motor, controller and other components from a used smaller lift truck (HiLo). You can quite often score a truck with a charger for a few hundred, Usually a bad battery or trans. You part out what you need sell the good parts you don't need and the scrap the rest

Look Up Project Forkenswift http://forkenswift.com/

The operating time and weight you are describing would be close to what they use. I think the battery capacity, voltage and motor of a 4 to 6000 pound Hi Lo would be very close to your needs. Since you would not be powering the lift pump and such you could probably reduce battery capacity by 20% over what they used. 

I would strongly recommend you take your decisions on motor and controller along with Grosse Weight for the loaded train to the Battery Forum and get someone who has the Math to go over your needs.

If you want to go with new components I would look at:
An EV purpose built 6.7 or 7 inch motor. (8 - 12 HP continious and 30 - 40 HP max). The motor you want should be most efficient and make maximum power/torque at about 3000 RPM. This should work best with the garden tractor transaxle.
The motor MUST be internal fan cooled and you might need an external fan as well.
Run it at 36 to 48 volts.
Use a good commercial brand name controller like Alltrax, Curtis or their equivalent.
Use brand name contactors, fuses, throttle pot, cableing and batteries.
Hi quality deep cycle batteries. Best would be 6 volt. These batteries can cost a big chunk, but they are the heart of the system, you wont want to skimp.



robdunstan said:


> battery setup is not that critical as we can be very creative in designing a way to hold the batteries we will need. the fewer the better but if not, that's fine too.
> 
> we looked into the electric ox but the price of that thing made me almost pass out.
> 
> ...


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## robdunstan (Jan 10, 2010)

thanks jim

you need to search for "trackless train".


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## aproldan (Mar 26, 2009)

robdunstan said:


> thanks jim
> 
> you need to search for "trackless train".


 just checked your train out very cool... i like it... now that i know what it is, you need 6-10 hp to handle what the gasone is doing..you should look into series wound motors. would work best on your appication.. series wound motor would be your best bet.. good luck


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## Jimdear2 (Oct 12, 2008)

robdunstan said:


> thanks jim
> 
> you need to search for "trackless train".


Found it, kind of neat.

Just a few additional notes.

In the information below I list a lot of eBay and off brand stuff. Since this is a commercial endevor you are going to need repeatable stuff, so figure on the High End of the range.

The attached pictures show the Cub Cadet I converted using a rebuilt HiLo pump motor of about 6 to 8 continous horsepower (best guess). I bought the motor from a rebuilding shop on the internet for around $200.00. The second picture shows all of the components needed to control the motor with the exception of the foot throttle and the emergency disconnect.




Something to give you an idea of what costs you are looking at and will need for a 48 volt system.
The controller (from $200.00 used, up to $4000.00 for the top end)
The main contactor. (One at least but it is best to have 2. from $65.00 to a $1000.00 each)
The 400 amp main fuse (Again two are better. Fuse with holder $30.00 to $40.00 each. Note a DC circuit breaker can cost $200.00 - $300.00 in this voltage/amprage range.)
Battery charge port (Anderson connectors, about $25.00 for the paired set)
Other wiring and connections for precharge, safety and interlock functions. (figure at least $50 - $100.00 for misc.
The battery you see is only for the 12 volt control functions and to run the 12 volt motor cooling fan. (Additional battery, switch and relay, cooling fan, filter and ducting, $100.00)
Emergency disconnect, not shown. (I used an Albright. About $80.00)
Throttle control unit, not shown. ($65.00 to $250.00)
1/0 welding cable and connectors (about $75.00)
Motor 6.7 to 8 inch (depending on choice and power need, from $200.00 to $1500.00)
Batteries depending on choice (From hundreds to thousands)
Battery Charger, depending on battery choice. For an overnight charge on 110 volts (could be $1000.00 plus) Cheap chargers can ruin batteries.
Look carefully below in the picture and you can see the motor. The air filter you see is used to filter the motor cooling air and keep dust and debris out of the motor.

The weight transfer sled you see being towed has a dead weight of 8900 pounds. With the weight box all of the way back and the weight balanced on the wheels, I have no problems pulling it around at up to 5mph using second (of three) gear.

The motor and controller are going to be the easier part of your conversion. to run this machine all day is going to take a pretty substantial battery size/weight battery pack if you use lead acid.

Again I stress go to the battery forum and get one of the people who are on top of the math and have them help you select a battery pack size

The Cub I converted in action, you will notice the weight sled never stalled the motor.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0shCm6swxXg

Now you know why the Electric Ox costs so much.

Hope this helps.


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## automd (Feb 5, 2010)

Jimdear2 said:


> Found it, kind of neat.
> 
> Just a few additional notes.
> 
> ...


IMHO, it's always better to buy some tested chargers & not just because of the price. Same goes for brands too


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## ngrimm (Oct 19, 2007)

Since the hydrostatic drive has been mentioned, I wonder if anyone has tried operating the throttle pot from the hydro's control lever. I realize it is a little redundant to use both throttle and hydro for speed control but I think that would be easier to operate than having separate controls. I have a hydro on my horseless carriage replica and have been thinking about converting to electric. I agree the hydro's internal braking wouldn't work very well with electric since you need to keep the motor rpm up. I'm not sure that it relies on the engine compression for braking though. On my carriage it seems more like it is just tied to rpm since it brakes much better when the engine is running faster.


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## ceh4702 (Mar 12, 2011)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-RSqImgaW2U&feature=related

This is an interesting young man and his go cart. . . . I thought this video was kind of cute. He was not using very large batteries either. Looked like a small 48 volt DC Motor.

I am thinking you dont need much of a load for a lawn mower, so maybe get a smaller motor.

You going to use a transverse axle and a clutch? I am thinking normally there is always a blade spinning, and the Transverse axle has a reutral position, and a shifter to engage the rear axle.

You might want to look at a forum dedicated to racing lawn mowers.

I have an old 110 electric lawmower in my shed doing nothing. The power lever kind of wore our and I decied it was not worth messing with. May be more trouble than it is worth.

Be careful.

I have an old 110 electric lawmower in my shed doing nothing. The power lever kind of wore our and I decied it was not worth messing with. May be more trouble than it is worth. To run it it would require some kind of an inverter. Usually, you just run it wide open like a normal lawn mower. It spins fast, but I doubt it can run a car.


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

ceh4702 said:


> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-RSqImgaW2U&feature=related
> 
> This is an interesting young man and his go cart. . . . I thought this video was kind of cute.


Brakes.....We don't need no friggin brakes 

Yeah, give the kid some credit. Hope he doesn't break his neck


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