# Looking for application of AC-20 on lightweight reverse trike: PLEASE?



## Jarel Design (Jul 2, 2015)

Hello,

I’m building a reverse trike high mpg hybrid, (using a motorcycle engine for the ICE, driving through the EV motor for regen charging withy the ability to run on EV alone). This will be done using direct drive with the flexibility of being able to combine sprocket sizes to obtain optimum efficiency for both.

I have a build thread here where I started asking questions about regenerative charging/braking:

http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showthread.php/regerative-trike-questions-160602.html

(Please don’t laugh… I started out not knowing a thing and those things I did “learn” apparently got me going in many wrong directions. I began reading just about everything here (and other websites, EV suppliers and more), back in April of this year before posting my first question. (Thank you again to everyone who has helped me so far.

I foolishly (Had ZERO knowledge!) and began thinking that I was going to use 48v and a DC Sepex motor. After learning more I “boldly” upped the voltage to 72v. (Ha!) I then proceeded to learn all I could about AC motors.

I “Thought” I was “golden” with the AC-15 on 108v. and a Curtis controller.

The reverse trike will most realistically weigh between 1,500lbs and 1,750lbs (My first goal was 1.000lbs!), and will be VERY aerodynamic. The motor will be a direct drive with maximum EV speeds of about 45mph (The ICE will be used on highway speeds over that.) I will be using LRR tires on all three wheels and converting the rear MC rim tire to an automobile tire.)

Recently it was suggested that I up the motor size (from the AC-15), once more. The AC-50 is way over-kill for the performance I’m looking for and more than twice the weight of the AC-15: Again, this vehicle WILL NOT BE A RACER! I am fine with what I think most people here would consider fair to poor acceleration… I’m looking for high mpg with the ICE and EV motor combined and plan to drive like a grandma. I do not need to be the first person waiting for the next red light. (I don’t want to slow traffic down, but in reality, city traffic here is pretty slow.)..

The motors I’ve been looking at are”

AC-15 (Original AC motor I “thought” would be “perfect”. LOL!)
AC-20 (So far this one “seems to me” to be appropriate.)
AC-23 (I “thought this one would be better because of the lower rpm/torque curves, before I started to comprehend the graphs and began focusing on the AC-20)

So now I have my eye on the AC-20. I've found "Peak Performance" graphs, but nothing showing continuous use. Either way, I really have a hard time understanding them (mostly interested in running EV at lower rpms (but I can alter than via chain sprocket size/gearing) and continuous amperage use while driving around town.



My back wheel has a 24.5” diameter (823.71 rpms at 60mph). I am trying to keep the gear/sprocket ratios as close as possible to the output shaft on the ICE (Stock for the ICE is 16/42)… The Ice has a 6 speed transmission that most riders rarely use, so I plan to gear the ICE down to get closer to the EV gearing and use the 6th gear in the ICE for speeds up to 65mph. I WILL NOT BE DRIVING OVER THAT SPEED! (Really! LOL!) In EV mode, I plan to keep speeds below 35mph with one run to the nearest town of interest at 45mph for about 7 miles on flat ground. Mostly just local casual cruising, running errands and driving over to our nearby art town 15 miles away. Flat terrain with some gradual hills in the countryside where I will most likely be powering the vehicle via ICE.

To be totally honest, I am so lost trying to decipher the graphs and can only try to imagine “performance” and what will be going on at different speeds, acceleration etc…

Can anyone here please share their experience and/or advice/knowledge regarding my hopeful use of the AC-20 on 108v for my application?

I’m not afraid of “doing the work” researching anything I can get my hands on. Seems I’ve read almost every thread here in this forum since April! I’ve read a LOT about the AC-50 (seems to be a very popular motor for EV conversions!), and descriptions of its’ performance, but I know that motor is way too big for my design. And descriptions (“poor”, “great”), of performance can also be biased by the person sharing based on what seems to be an importance of 0-60mph in X seconds… Again, I do not want a high performance racer, I’m trying to build a very high mpg hybrid and more than willing to sacrifice acceleration performance. 

I haven’t found much information on “mid-size” motors and applications. Lots of conversions using the AC-50 or motorcycles using much smaller motors than I’d like.

Any help/advice would be so appreciated!

Thanks in advance!

Richard


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## samwichse (Jan 28, 2012)

http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showthread.php?t=164833


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## Jarel Design (Jul 2, 2015)

Smiling here Samwichse! 

Thanks for the link, but I'm not ready to buy and I REALLY would prefer the HPEV AC-20 with Curtis controller kit...

IF it will perform the way I'd like...!

What would I like? HA! The moon!

What I'd really like:
Enough power to get out of my own way (faster than the old lady crossing the street), but not enough to be first in line at the next stop light. Not really interested in acceleration as a priority. If I get "some", great.. but last on my list.

Low rpms to help match gearing with the ICE output shaft and the rear drive wheel, (But there is some leeway there as I can adapt with different sized sprockets.) (To "some extent".)

Efficient use of energy in low to medium rpms/mph (25mph to 35mph with "some short periods at 45mph at continuous use so as to help with the range (Planning on using 100AH LiPo cells at 108v) If I can pus it to higher speeds with higher rpms, great, but again, mostly cruising around town. Top speed in either ICE or EV mode will be 65mph max. Not a freeway vehicle.

I'm not ready to buy. I just need more info about the AC-20 motor (or something more suitable), regarding continuous use... Had a break from work and thought I'd post here. 

I think what I really need to do is contact a distributor who sells them and ask them... (I'm just tired... I've been working since 4AM (with a cold), and will probably continue late into the night. Client upped the deadline! 

Thanks!

Richard


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## samwichse (Jan 28, 2012)

~60 hp is more than enough to push a lightweight, aero vehicle at 65 mph.

My insight (1850 lbs, 5.1 ft^2 CdA) will go 112 on 72 HP and LRR tires. BTW, if you want max range for the buck, consider designing around a 165/65 R14 for the fronts... The Potenza re92 in that size is pretty much the most efficient on the road.

10 kw will juuuust push my car to ~40 MPH on level ground, but that includes overcoming the pumping losses in the 1L 3cyl bolted up to the motor.

Edit: misunderstood your reply a bit, edited redundant part out.


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## Jarel Design (Jul 2, 2015)

Thank you for that info...

I'm not good with numbers, but I'm great at recognizing patterns and understanding concepts.

Thanks for the tire recommendation. I already had one picked out (Actually it was the tire dealership suggestion based on my front rim size (15" X 5.5"). I'm using a Volkswagen front end beam and will be using 2.5" drop spindles so I have to use at least a 15" rim (There have been reports of the tie rod assemblies rubbing against the inside of certain rims). I'll look to see if your tire recommendation is available in a 15" size.

In your post you wrote:
10 kw will juuuust push my car to ~40 MPH on level ground, but that includes overcoming the pumping losses in the 1L 3cyl bolted up to the motor.

Questions:

Is "my car" you're describing here the same Insight (1,850lbs),mentioned earlier in your post?

What is? and what do you mean by: 1L 3cyl bolted up to the motor? (Is this an engine 1L = 1 Liter 3-cyl ICE?), that is also being turned by the EV motor while driving in EV mode? Can you please explain? (Do you. Have you ever driven with the same 10kw without this for comparison? Or... does this info come from an on board display where you can see how many kw you're using at any different time?)

In many threads here and EV motor comparisons, I've seen HP and KW being use to describe power. Am I correct in using the formula of 1hp = 745.7 watts to calculate and compare different motors that are measured in hp and/or kw? (I do understand the difference when comparing an ICE vs and EV motor where the kw/hp in an ICE comes up at higher rpm and therefore the need for a transmission vs an EV motor where the torque can be right from the beginning of rpm development and run through driving speed (depending on that particular motor and power curve.)

Thanks again!

Richard


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## samwichse (Jan 28, 2012)

If you're going any other size than 165/65 r14 don't use the Potenza... it's a sticky sport tire. Only that specific size is a special tire codeveloped with Honda for the Insight. In my experience, gas mileage drops by a solid 10% using anything else (even in the same size)
http://ecomodder.com/forum/showthre...rious-tires-suzukiclone-fleet-re92-19126.html

Yes, I'm talking about the 1850lb, low drag car there, but yes, the Honda IMA system is an electric motor bolted directly to the end of the crankshaft. I have the system hacked so I have a separate throttle for the electric motor, but the gas motor gets spun in fuel cut mode like you're rolling down a hill in gear. And it doesn't do the valve-closing air spring thing of the later HCH. Definitely adds a chunk of drag. 

Be careful just using the hp/kw formula... I've got a 66 HP gasser and the (theoretical) 12kw electric (in practice you only get that for 1-2 seconds before the MCM dials it back due to pack voltage sag). So a total of 81 hp? Nope. 72 hp is the rating due to the extremely different torque curves.


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## Jarel Design (Jul 2, 2015)

Thank you SO MUCH! I really do appreciate your time explaining this to a newbie! 

Woke up early and going over the graphs for the AC-15 (my original AC choice), the AC-20 (the one I'm seriously considering), and the AC-23 which has more torque & hp at lower rpms.

I've been drawing lines intersecting amps, hp, torque and rpms starting with 550 amps (Max and where most of the Curtis controllers match the peak max C-rating for the batteries), to help me understand where I'm at.

I just sat down to write up the info on the ICE, with chain sprocket ratios with the hopes of getting the EV motor to match. I don't expect the EV motor chain sprocket ratio to be the same, but I know I'll be able to "fudge" both on the ICE ratio and the EV motor ratio. This includes wheel diameter, wheel rpms at 45mph and 60mph. I hope to learn more by having this info on one page in front of me.

Woke up early to try and get as much client work done as possible (Stayed up way to late to complete one project for a second client.), tonight is our local EV club meeting and there are "some" who understand all of this and I'm hoping to share, get their input and hopefully learn more.

I have read a lot and do understand (conceptually) voltage lag... I don't expect to gain "exact" numbers while I'm putting this all together... Just enough to help me decide on which motor to choose and get an "approximate" understanding of the performance I can expect for each of these motors.

Interesting that you mentioned "torque curves"... 

The AC-23 AMPS go up very quickly (Steep as in shorter curve upwards), to 550A but has less HP than the AC-20 and at about 1,000 rpms less. Then the amps drop suddenly and everything drops fairly gradually (longer "curve"?) producing a "little" less hp at 1,000 rpms faster.

The AC-20 has a much more gradual climb in amps over a wider rpm range and delivers more hp but at 2,000 rpms faster (I "think" this rpm matches the ICE and rear drive wheel which might allow me to gear the ICE and the EV motor very close.) I still have to write all this down so I can see more clearly and help decipher what I'm seeing..

After I do this and "think" I know what "performance" to expect, I'd love to post that info and the results here to see if you think I'm on track.

Thank you again so much for your time and help!

Best,

Richard


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## Jarel Design (Jul 2, 2015)

OK...

Compiled the attached information I REALLY should have been working! But this question of EV motor application and trying to match it up to the MC ICE is driving me nuts! LOL! 

The batteries I plan to use are 100AH LiPo with a continuous 3C and 10C "burst" (I'll go way conservative on these with my years of experience using LiPo batteries in high performance R/C model aircraft! LOL!)

I guess the first thing I have to look at is my math to see if I got everything right.

The information regarding the 500cc ICE comes from months of investigating on a website devoted just to this bike. (Unfortunately, the stock bike does not come with a tachometer, so this information is limited.)

Ideally, I'd LOVE to have the ratio between the ICE pass through the EV motor at the same ratio. I doubt this will happen, thinking I will need a higher ratio for direct drive application of an AC EV motor. This "could be ok", as the ICE has 6 speeds and most riders rarely get into 6th gear, so with a maximum speed of 65mph and many riders exceeding this a LOT, I should be ok applying the ICE ratio closer to the EV motor's requirements. (Again, there are still sprocket size ratios I can play with... Worst case scenario is designing a "jack-shaft" where I can design and fabricate an "engage" - "disengage" feature. Not my favorite choice (KISS factor), but a possibility if needed.

Rear sprockets are readily available up to about 80-tooth, so I stopped calculating ratios at 84-tooth.

Just calculating these numbers has my head spinning and I have to get back to work.

The power curves are for the AC-15 (my first choice, but now I see having less power than I could have). The AC-20 (The one I have my eyes on) and the AC-23 (Has much more torque, but at much lower rpms). The pencil lines I drew with black ink dots, were my first attempt to figure out performance, starting with a 550A maximum (Temporary "peak").

Thought I'd share.

Thanks!

Richard


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## Jarel Design (Jul 2, 2015)

Just taking a quick lunch break.

Went back to the EVWest website looking for continuous graphs for these motors.

(This is where I bonk my head realizing just how much I "miss"!!!)

I never noticed ALL the choices for graphs including voltage Peak AND continuous!!! (Totally laughing at myself!)

So I saved the graphs into my trike motor file and printed them out to compare with the peak graphs.

Oh My God! Together, they REALLY tell a story! And totally help me regarding rpm performances. This will REALLY help me decipher all the info I wrote down earlier this morning!!! (Really relieved, as now I think I have enough information to figure out performance characteristics, efficiency and gear/chain drive sprocket ratios to match mph with efficiency, torque and provide me some insight as to how to set up the sprocket ratios between the ICE and the EV motor!

Now... If I only had time to sit down all day and review all of this info together! LOL!

Back to the salt mine!

Hoping that when I do put together what I "think" will work for both the AC-20 and AC-23, I can post my results and share for opinions?

Thank you again for ALL your help!

Best,

Richard


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## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

I am interested in seeing what others have to say about these motors, considering that the motor that you select would be used in a direct drive configuration. I don't know everything yet, but I am having a hard time picturing any of these motors being used on a direct drive vehicle. Maybe the AC 23 does more than what my gut tells me. I can heat my AC35 up running through the foothills in summer, and this is with a five speed transmission and weighs 2000 lbs. Yea, there is plenty of acceleration available to take off from red lights, but I am concerned about the long haul. Since I have gears, I can up the rpms a little to get the fan to displace a little more heat, but in direct drive you just have to live with the heat. I have observed that these motors can heat up very quickly pulling a hill, but they take a lot longer to cool back down.

I think that I can see that you are looking for less weight, but my personal opinion based on my experience is that even an AC35 is going to be pushing it for a direct drive 1500lb vehicle. There are water cooling plates available for the 1238 and 1239 controllers, but nothing that I know of for the motors. It does not take much of a motor to keep your vehicle cruising down the freeway at 60 mph, but getting up to speed and going up hills takes a lot more. Especially if you have no gearing. The volts and amps of a 1238 are plenty, but I am envisioning a lot of heat build up in such small motors being used for direct drive.

What I know is based primarily off of what I have learned in my own EV conversions, so I would be very interested in seeing what some of the better educated guys have to say about using such a small motor on a direct drive application.


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## Jarel Design (Jul 2, 2015)

Hi Bob!

Thanks for chiming in!

I will NOT be using the EV motor for freeway speeds or driving through the countryside and hills. I'll leave that to the ICE. The EV motor will primarily be used for local commuting (Flat terrain) and speeds below 45 mph...

I finally got the continuous graph for both of these motors and have been racking my brain trying to match the EV motor with the ICE output shaft...

WAY TOO MUCH calculating! LOLOLOL!

But, I think I figured out a way to do it!!!

I even began designing a clutch or engage/disengage mechanism to isolate the ICE from the EV motor. Something I REALLY did not want to do!!!

Then I came up with a simple design that I am almost certain will give me the room to switch and match gears/sprockets so that the ICE output shaft and the EV output shaft come out the same!

So far, I'm basing my idea (Understanding") that both motors have their highest efficiency and hp output at about 4krpm to 5k rpm.

I'm working on gear ratios for 48mph and for 66mph. One of my concerns so far has been trying to keep the rpms of the EV motor down (when regenerating), to the same 4krpm to 5krpm.

I don't think at this point the exact numbers matter. Right now I'm just working on the concept for the jack-shaft system... No moving parts, clutch etc....

I really need to finish my prototype as I have to ship to client tomorrow and spend WAY too much time trying to figure this out... Having done so (at least in concept), I was just about to step away and get back to work.

I'll get back to the drawing table and draw up what I'm thinking of. The drawings will be for 48mph and for 66mph (available rpm specs for the ICE output shaft and engine rpms). I'll also have three different gear ratios for each speed, with sprocket teeth count, drive ratios and rpms for the ICE, the jack shaft, the EV motor and the back wheel.

Whew!

OK... back to work.

Thanks for joining in! I really appreciate your input...

(Again, I do not plan on using the EV motor for countryside/hills or freeway speeds. (If it can do it, great, but my original idea was to save the EV system for commuting and flat local highways (under 55mph).

The ICE produces 60hp at 9krpms with maximum torque at 5.5krpm with a redline of 10.5k rpm. It also has a six speed transmission that most riders don't use unless their driving in excess of 100mph. This will give me lots of room to "down-gear" regarding gearing for the ICE to help match the EV motor rpm.

(My head is spinning! Excited after being "stumped" for so long. but still spinning. I have to go concentrate on other "ratios" and numbers on my project! LOL!)

I'll be back!

Thanks again,

Richard


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## Jarel Design (Jul 2, 2015)

OK…

Shipped out my client prototype yesterday, still haven’t gotten enough sleep, but this concept to tie my EV motor to the drive system between my ICE and drive wheel has been burning holes through my brain! (I’ve gone over these numbers countless times to ensure accuracy regarding ratios and resulting rpm changes for each sprocket used. I wouldn’t be surprised if I made some mistakes!)

The drawing shows my original design where the EV motor was directly tied into the drive system between the ICE output shaft and the wheel.

The “new” system uses a Jackshaft with the EV motor still tied into the ICE drive system, but now I have the flexibility of altering the gear/sprocket ratios (especially between the EV motor and the jackshaft), almost unlimitedly!

(If you jump to the gear/sprocket ratio spread sheet, know that I chose the driving speeds (mph), based on what I could confirm regarding ICE output performance and engine rpm The speeds and ICE output shaft rpm are based on 6k engine rpm (right in the middle of it’s best power band: 5.5krpm to 8krpm). With a 6 speed transmission, I can alter engine rpm up or down for each mph for best performance. 

From there I went to “fitting” the EV motor into the drive system.

The seemingly “odd” sprocket ratio between the ICE and the jackshaft was to keep this ratio as close as possible to 1:1 (However, same size or “even to even” sprocket teeth count would destroy the drive chain sooner, hence the 16-T to 17-T ratio.)

First off, let me repeat my driving applications for ICE and EV motor on this vehicle: The EV motor will be primarily used for slower, commuting speeds between 25mp and 48mph. The ICE can be used over the full spectrum of speeds, but I’m planning to use the ICE primarily over 45mph as well as long countryside drives and hilly terrain. The EV system will be used primarily on flat terrain. I am absolutely NOT looking for quick EV acceleration! Just enough to keep up with traffic.

Here’s where I REALLY need some help/ input: I am uncertain about performance, efficiency, motor cooling (fan speed), and regen rpms for the AC-20 and AC-23.

Based on an uneducated understanding of how to read the “continuous” graphs, I’m “guessing” that both motors like to be used (continuously) at about 4k – 5k rpm?

My goal was to accommodate both the ICE and the EV motor’s needs for rpm. (I have the flexibility of shifting the ICE to match whatever works (within reason).

I “Think” that the EV motor would operate at its’ best using the bottom (2.58:1 ratio), between the EV motor and the Jackshaft, especially if I keep my EV speeds below 50mph.

What I’m REALLY CONCERNED about is: If I am driving at 65 –70 mph in ICE mode, (never to exceed), the EV motor will still remain tied into the drive system “going along for the ICE powered ride”. Will the approximate EV motor rpm of 7k hurt it? I know I can turn down the regenerating % so that at these higher rpms, less power is going back into the batteries. Will turning down the regenerating percentages help the longevity of the motor? Will just spinning it with little to no power going in or out, be ok?

Please let me know what you think. (The nice thing about this drive system is that I can switch sprocket sizes to attain just about any rpm ratios at the EV and still have some room to change gears at the ICE while driving under fuel mode.

My biggest question is which motor? AC-20? Or… AC-23? (I don’t want to go much bigger than that. I am not expecting performance to match “normal cars”) Conservative weight with batteries is 1,500 to 1,800 lbs, Maximum with passengers and fuel: (2,000lbs… I REALLY doubt it will get that heavy! My first estimates were 1,000 to 1,500lbs with batteries)




*ICE Stock sprocket ratio: 2.625:1 (16-T front, 42-T rear) *
*Output shaft rpm @ ICE 6k rpm (Peak hp @ 5.5k rpm) Redline @ 10k rpm)*

Speed Wheel rpm Output shaft rpm
25mph 343.2 900.9
48mph 658.4 1,728.3
66mph 905.3 2,376,4


*(Add Jackshaft between ICE and Wheel with uneven teeth count):*
16-T to 17-T from ICE output to Jack output 1.062:1 ratio (15.98-T equivalent)


*Jackshaft to Wheel:*

46-T at Wheel (2.878:1 ratio from jackshaft output to wheel))
Speed Jackshaft rpm
25mph 987.72
48mph 1,894.87
66mph 2,605.45
_____________________________________________________________

*EV Motor to Jackshaft:*

17-T at EV Motor, 36-T at Jackshaft (2.11:1 ratio)
Speed EV motor rpm
25mph 2,084.08
48mph 3,998.17
66mph 5,497.49


17-T at EV Motor, 40-T at Jackshaft (2.35:1 ratio)
Speed EV Motor rpm
25mph 2,321.14
48mph 4,452.94
66mph 6,122.80


17-T at EV Motor, 44-T at Jackshaft (2.58:1 ratio)
Speed EV Motor rpm
25mph 2,548.31
48mph 4,888.76
66mph 6,722.06


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## Jarel Design (Jul 2, 2015)

PS:

If I hadn't already shared this info:

Volts: 108
Batteries: 100AH LiPo 3C continuous/10C momentary 
"Suggested" 1238-7501 Curtis controller

Thanks again!

Richard


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## dcb (Dec 5, 2009)

I think most of the interest in hybrids in this forum is in finding a production one and ditching the ICE.

Good luck.


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## Jarel Design (Jul 2, 2015)

Laughing here at the irony! LOL!

In this case, our driving habits (Mostly covering recreational and local commuting), a hybrid like this is exactly what we want. (We both (wife and I) REALLY thought about our driving patterns and habits before considering this hybrid approach.

Most of our EV driving will be lower speed local commuting/errands etc. as well as driving around for Craigslist and garage sale purchases. On weekends, driving within 250 miles to go to the coast etc at higher speeds will work well and provide us with the ability to turn off the ICE for quiet driving; exploring towns once we arrive. Driving in ICE mode will allow us to charge batteries on the longer drives. A controller that adjusts the amount of regen, will provide control of ICE mpg vs how much we need to charge our batteries.

By the way, something I wanted to add:

When we are driving in EV Mode, the ICE will be shut off and placed in neutral. The ICE transmission and engine both share the same oil with the transmission gears lubricated in a "splash/bath" of oil provided by the spinning output drive shaft. The general consensus on the Vulcan 500 forum (donor bike), is that turning the disengaged output shaft would provide negligible drag (easily turned by hand), there will be "some" drag, but I don't think enough to worry about for local EV driving.

OK... off to buy rabbit food! Did I share that Tresa (A teaching Master Gardener) and I grow 80% of our own food on a city lot? Veggies, chickens, rabbits, quail and Tilapia (Aquaponics)? Besides designing client prototypes and inventing things for here around the house (2 summers ago, I designed and built a 250 watt cooling system for our home that cools it down better then our central air!). While I'm doing all of this and designing this vehicle, I'm building a 28 watt heating system for our house!

Whew!

Oh yeah, we also teach self sustainable living classes and have out next gig on November 17th!

People wonder how we get all this done.... I don't sleep! LOL


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## Jarel Design (Jul 2, 2015)

Oh yeah, Thanks for the "Good Luck"!

There were a few members who thought I was nuts and "not keeping within the spirit" of this website.

For me, it's about defining a need and inventing something to fill it. In this case, a little (dare I say it?) "Gas", works with out needs. I'm sure both of us will try to keep the plug in charger for this vehicle in use, more than the ICE.

Tresa's work finally listened to her about installing an EV charging station. Now I've got her also asking that a 110v and 220v charging plug be added at the same time for EV conversions. Might have to direct the deciding "task force" to this site!

=D

Thanks again!


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

Hi Jarel
I'm not a motor guy but in that configuration your motor spins all of the time, even a small amount of parasitic drag will cost you a lot in efficiency
How about using an air conditioning compressor clutch to take the electric motor out of the circuit when not required?


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## dcb (Dec 5, 2009)

Jarel Design said:


> There were a few members who thought I was nuts and "not keeping within the spirit" of this website.


I'm inclined to agree though, the electrical bits are challenging/costly enough to sort out, adding an ICE is regression, when you can just keep an econobox in the stable for longer trips (and learn how to drive it for 50+mpg) and be done with it for the most part.


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## Jarel Design (Jul 2, 2015)

Thanks for the advice about the air conditioning clutch! 

I have been researching clutches as a possible solution, but was obviously looking in the wrong direction! LOL! I hadn't thought of an AC clutch!

Now I just have some more research to do to see how they're activated, adaptability etc.... I'm "guessing" that because they're already attached to an automotive engine, they should be able to handle the stress of chain drives on their bearings... My first question would be "slippage" under torque of the EV motor starting from a top...

I've had more comments than I would have liked here regarding "stepping backwards" from a pure EV... 

If you knew what I do for a living (All of you have seen, purchased items I've invented over the past 25 years. I absolutely LOVE what I do!!!

This project falls into that category! I have wanted to build a hybrid vehicle since I was 14 years old. I'm now 61... We own a fairly high mpg Honda CRV for local and long distance driving (with camping gear), and a full size truck for the bigger stuff and towing our boats.

I truly believe in Hybrids!!! There are so may manufactured "Hybrids"... Makes all the sense in the world when everyone is concerned with range on pure EV and running out of power at the end of the day. "....anxiety" (not sure what the first word is), but it relates to driving off in your EV and worrying about running out of EV power. With this vehicle, I will never had to worry about that! The ICE starts out at about 60mpg to 70mpg (granted, that's with an 850+ lb bike)... If I can get this set up to perform the way I'd like, You'd be able to hear my laughter (pure joy!), from wherever you are.

With all due respect, What I'm really after are "positive" replies that help me towards my goal. Duncan's AC clutch was a wonderful and positive contribution! How complicated it would be to adapt this type of clutch makes no difference to me. I'm asked to create the impossible on a weekly basis by my clients. I THRIVE on the challenge! Even if I can't get the AC clutch to work, it will have been worth my very best efforts, blood sweat and tears to try.

Thank you!

(Sorry, I've been working for several months non-stop (7 days a week, 12-18hrs a day), with maybe a week's worth of "time off". I cannot share just how exhausted (Physically and emotionally), I truly am.... I feel like a determined, overweight marathon runner who has made it to within eyesight of the finish line. I have no idea where I'm getting my energy from or how I'm keeping my morale up, but there's just no way I'm ever going to stop! 

*Warm smile of gratitude and appreciation to EVERYONE!* (even the suggestion to just use another vehicle for longer trips, get's translated into even more reason to continue pursuing this project)

Can anyone just tell me which one of these motors would be a "better choice" for a direct drive application for this vehicle and why?

I'd really like to know the rpm curve for best performance (efficiency, not speed or acceleration), and if the clutch idea doesn't work, at what rpm can I safely "spin" the motor in ICE mode without damaging it? (I fully understand the drag on the ICE while spinning the EV motor and the drag on the EV motor while spinning the ICE output shaft... I'm willing to live with them if need be... Still thinking about the clutch! =D

(Just now talking to myself and pulling me away from this keyboard. I'm going to go pet the rabbits! (laughing at myself here.)

Tresa's coming home late from work, so I pulled some rabbit meat out of the freezer and will start making a salad from our garden... That just might get my mind off of this... for a little while at least! LOL!

Thanks,

Richard


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

Hi Jared
Slippage 
You won't be using the clutch as a clutch - so it will be fully engaged before it sees any torque 
Also if you are only using the motor for low speed you can gear it down a lot which will reduce the motor torque compared to the axle torque
Only trouble is if you do that you will not be able to do re-gen at full speed

Rabbit is delicious if properly cooked - only trouble is small bones and shotgun pellets


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## Jarel Design (Jul 2, 2015)

Smiling here...
We don't "shoot" them... We raise them! (I even invented a captive bolt gun for dispatching quickly without any stress or pain to the rabbit)... We grow them up to about 6 lbs... One makes for meals for the both of us! And, both Tresa and I are "foodies"... We LOVE to cook and have very different styles. Her's is more country American, min is more exotic (Thai. Chinese and Caribbean... Traveled extensively to al three and learned how to cook their foods while visiting... VERY different than "American" versions... We substitute Chicken with Rabbit meat a lot... And yes, Rabbit IS delicious!  Tonight's rabbit is marinating in Lemon and Lime Juice, Oil, ground cummin, fresh crushed garlic, Cajun seasoning, salt, pepper and a little Old Bay seasoning... Mmmmm! =D

I just finished prepping dinner and was about to search auto AC clutches to see how they work and saw your reply in my email.

I understand your suggesting that I can't "re-gen" at "full speed"...

I guess that's what my questions are all about! 

What rpms are safe/efficient for driving in EV mode and what rpms are safe/efficient for regen mode. with these two motors? 

I'm expecting a compromise regarding gearing the EV motor to the ICE drive system: enough power to accelerate from a stop in a "zippy" fashion, I loose higher speed efficiency. And like you say, if I do gear the EV motor low for driving, the regen rpms will be too high... Depending on what those numbers are, I can drive slower in ICE mode, gear up a little on the EV motor and/or use a clutch to disengage the EV motor (regen), while driving on ICE power at high speeds.

I'm trying to find out what are my limits in both directions (Trying to learn how to read the power graphs and can only "guess" (with my lack of knowledge), as somewhere between 4k and 6k rpms.... But, will that also apply in reverse for regen? (And that's ONLY if I'm even in the ball park about being able to interpret the graphs!) LOL!

I REALLY DO appreciate your time and attention into looking over my shoulder as I try to make this all work out!

I'm chuckling here in appreciation of your input... I remember my first "Regenerative reverse trike question thread" many months ago: where I started out planning to use a 48v system turning a DC motor and "thinking" that "Sepex" was a motor "brand"!!!! (reminds me of the Tom Hanks Movie "Big" where his co-worker shares that a certain secretary will wrap herself around him and eat him up... (Tom's reply: Oh! I'll make sure to stay away from HER!) 

Duncan, You have been there for me from the very start here at DIY and I cannot thank you enough!

(Reminds me of a post I received over at the LocostUSA site where I was trying to learn about suspension and steering geometry and referred to the "tie rods" as "push rods"... One of the senior members wrote: "Pssst. they're tie rods... push rods go IN the engine!" (Don't worry, I won't tell anyone.) 

Positive energy sure goes a long way with me, even when I'm hitting the wall, getting it all wrong, not understanding the vocabulary and feeling like I'm taking two steps back for every step forward...

My friends tell me my middle name should have been "Tenacity"... 

Thank you again!

Richard


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## dcb (Dec 5, 2009)

Jarel Design said:


> I've had more comments than I would have liked here regarding "stepping backwards" from a pure EV...


That's kinda too bad, this isn't diyhybrid.com, or shareyourrabbitrecipies.com. Frankly you sound a little delusional, like the electric motors section is the place for your life story and how great everyone's lives are because of you. I think it is my turn to have a laugh.


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## ken will (Dec 19, 2009)

You can build your own clutches ( yes plural ) using parts from motorcycle clutches and run two sets of sprockets and chains to the jack-shaft.

Engage clutch A to the power ratio for low speed driving. 
Engage clutch B to the speed ratio for high speed driving.


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## Jarel Design (Jul 2, 2015)

Ken, Duncan, You guys are GREAT!

Duncan: I researched AC compressor clutches and now I know a lot about how they work. However, I was concerned about their strength and ability to operate in a high torque drive chain application...

So... I began researching "other" clutches and discovered a whole range of industrial clutches (heavy machinery etc...)... Prices seamed a little high so I started researching motorcycle clutches since I was already using a motorcycle clutch (stock in the ICE), I figured that was the way to go. Further research led me to discover the difference between dry and wet clutches but hadn't carried my research far enough to see if I could adapt them to the jack-shaft. I have a fairly complete machine shop here so I figured adapting them to be on a shaft would be no big deal.

Ken:
We both went to the same page regarding using a motorcycle clutch! Although I hadn't (and probably would never have thought of), using your twin clutch idea! BRILLIANT!!!

THANK YOU!

Your idea would not only solve the parasitic drag of the EV motor being turned by the ICE when not in regen mode, but it would essentially provide a simple "2-speed transmission for the the EV motor!!! 

I then took it one step further and figured that if I can figure out a way to lock my ICE clutch pedal down for EV driving, it would reduce the parasitic drag imposed on the motor when in EV mode! I need to come up with a driver interface system (levers, etc), to operate all of this (that is "easy/intuitive" to use). but that subject is right up my alley as far as mechanical design/engineering.

This is all fantastic!!!!!! 

Wow! This will all but totally eliminate the parasitic drag in both modes of driving, increasing EV range and ICE mpg and be able to control regen rpm when in ICE mode! My tail is wagging like crazy! VERY excited about this approach!

Ken: Funny how you were my first reply when I first posted on this site )"Regenerative reverse trike questions". Part of what you shared:

"Hybrids are like El Caminos... you either love them or hate them"

I actually LOVE the old El Caminos! LOL!

OK... Time to do some "farm work" around here. We're teaching one of our urban self-sustainability classes next week. I can rest my mind now seeing that I will have a lot of control over motor rpm in both driving and regen mode.

BTY: The rabbit last night was awesome! Tired a new home-brewed marinade (Wished I wrote it down!) LOL!

Thanks guys! You "put this train back on its' tracks!".

Richard

PS: I'm going back to the motorcycle salvage yard next week (Owner is really excited about my project, EXTREMELY knowledgeable and SUPER helpful), where I've been hunting down MC rims that would accept a LRR automobile tire (A totally different thread over at the Vulcan 500 website! LOL! ...So much research going into this project!). I'll ask the owner about "donor dry clutches" and see if I can pull one off a bike in his yard to experiment with!

I'll also contact a few EV motor suppliers to get rpm range info on the AC-20 and AC-23 (Although, Ken, with your 2-speed transmission idea, looks like the extra torque provided by the AC-23 won't be needed and I can focus more on efficiency.) 

THANK YOU!!!

Richard


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## Jarel Design (Jul 2, 2015)

As usual, the two-speed "transmission" idea has been burning holes through my brain! 

I've researched motorcycle clutches and discovered the difference between 'dry" and "wet" clutches. I can't use the wet ones. Not sure if the clutch in the donor bike engine is dry, but I think so. One of the many questions I have for the motorcycle salvage guy. Also, some clutches are engaged by a shaft going through a hollow drive shaft, some aren't. I'm hoping to use the ones that are not activated via the center of the jack-shaft axle. I haven't figured it all but, but I think controlling the clutches outside of the drive shaft will be easier using thrust bearings and yokes. The salvage yard is closed on Mondays, so I'm going over there tomorrow. I'm hoping to pick up a dry, externally activated clutch from any bike so I can begin experimenting here in the shop before proceeding with a final build. I sure love the idea though! It will truly provide so many features and flexibility for set up to accommodate whichever motor I end up getting.

Attaching a drawing I plan to bring with me to the salvage yard to help explain to the owner, what I'm trying to achieve.

Still need to go back to the tires store to "re-examine" options for front LRR tires and mounting an automotive tire on a motorcycle rim.

I do have a rear rim chosen, but would like to beef it up laterally (most motorcycle rims are not designed for lateral stresses, and although I think this one will work, I'm exploring having side facing gussets welded onto the wheel between the hub and the rim. I'll be fabricating rim covers (similar to Bonneville speed type), so I won't be considered about wind resistance within the wheel.

Long range performance has been more and more up on my radar. I'm re-examining my second styling concept and ti looks like there will be some drastic changes! (I had to examine what my priorities were... Seemed counter-productive to focus on styling while at the same time, wanting high range performance... LOL!

OK... back to work here.

Thanks again! Your dual clutch idea was/is truly great!!! (I hope my set up follows what you had in mind. (Since the EV motor shaft is short and the Jack-shaft is turning at a much lower rpm, I figured the clutches needed to be on the jack shaft. I have them mounted on the outside of the EV motor sprockets to keep them closer together to match mounting on the EV motor shaft. There's more I have to figure out, but like everything in developing this project, I run into a wall, and figure out how to get through it. 

Best,

Richard


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## dcb (Dec 5, 2009)

the two speed idea is hardly new, 
you can use one clutch (plate, centrifugal, dog) a freewheel/sprag clutch.

this one has two clutches because of prehistoric no catalytic converter loud smelly ICE with idle problems.









but an EV would only need to engage the higher ratio and let the lower one freewheel, unless regen is desired (but that is better done on the front wheels).


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## dcb (Dec 5, 2009)

here is a dog clutch, with neutral, the shifter part is like any manual transmission, connect the sprocket/gear to the shaft it is spinning on, no synchros here. The main advantage of chain based transmission is that you can be a lot more sloppy in your tolerances than with gears, which is a dubious advantage.

I've personally made a retro-direct transmission for a scooter, loud, worked well , alignment was fidgety to get right (no slack allowed), very simple (3 sprockets, 1 idler, 2 freewheels), couldn't move it backwards. (you throw the motor in reverse to change into high gear).

edit: found a pic of the retro-direct toy:


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## samwichse (Jan 28, 2012)

dcb said:


> I've personally made a retro-direct transmission for a scooter, loud, worked well , alignment was fidgety to get right (no slack allowed), very simple (3 sprockets, 1 idler, 2 freewheels), couldn't move it backwards. (you throw the motor in reverse to change into high gear).
> 
> edit: found a pic of the retro-direct toy:


Whoa, alignment fidgety indeed. Did you split the difference in angle from the motor drive sprocket to the two different wheel sprockets? Did this ever work reliably without kicking chains?


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## dcb (Dec 5, 2009)

basically, yah, split the difference. I have a bit of a build thread from 5 years ago here.

I went through several charges with no problem once I got it dialed/broken in.

the sprockets are as close as I could get them to keep the angle low, but a longer chain would help too. Also the motor sprocket and idler can be angled a bit to help align-feed the drive sprockets (or chain guides). The #25 sprockets have small teeth too, but single chain retro-direct has been around forever, patented in 1903. It is the simplest 2 speed I can imagine.

chain is very slop tolerant  but I need to get my head around real gears to deal with high rpm motors (that make full torque from 0 rpm).


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## Jarel Design (Jul 2, 2015)

Hello all,

I want to thank all of you for your help! 

Maxvtol (Joe) here at DIY was kind enough to insert the AC-20, AC-23 and AC-35 into his performance calculator for me.  THANK YOU!!!

(Really an amazing tool/calculator!!!)

Preliminary trial runs using his calculator (and of course, not a lot of knowledge on my part! LOL!), are pointing towards using the AC-20.

Nice acceleration, torque and efficiency curves without exceeding 550A (Actually, at 400A, I'm seeing acceleration at 0mph to 35mph: 9.7 seconds (Been driving around with a stop watch while driving my truck to experience what that feels like,(LOL!), and I can live with that.), This is using a direct drive ratio of 2.58:1. Sustaining 35mph is using really low amp draw! 

I have a LOT more gear ratio changes and amperages to experiment with, but at least I think I'm now in the "ball park"! 

I still have my second gear options on my jack-shaft to add to the equations, probably lowering the first gear for faster acceleration at lower amps and extending the range using a higher ratio for the 2nd gear, for cruising 

Most of my EV driving will be around 35mph and if I can keep the efficiency up using a higher 2nd gear for cruising to around 45mph, that would be great, but won't be used a lot... still nice to have though. (Speeds over this would be using the ICE.) Being able to easily switch sprockets on the jack-shaft will provide me with a lot of freedom to test drive; experiment and see what kind of numbers and performance I can get in the real world.

At least now, I have this great tool, with objective feedback in the form of numbers regarding acceleration and range potential to work with, study, and continue learning!

Again, Thank you Joe!!! 

And again, thank you to all who've helped me here!

(I probably won't be posting here again, but will continue in my original build thread once I get some more solid numbers.) If I can confirm that the AC-20 will be a motor I can work with for my needs, I can finally get on with the actual building! LOL! 

First stop is to the tire store to confirm mounting an auto tire on a new rim I found, then on to the motorcycle salvage yard to find that rim and see if I can get a clutch or two to experiment with designing/building a functional prototype of the 2-speed transmission. From there, I'll continue with the full size mock-up using the Smart EV windshield to continue building the frame forward, Extending the VW front end beam and a slew of other details! LOL!

Thanks again!

Richard


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