# [EVDL] Why is the Nissan Leaf so inefficient?



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

I am puzzled by the low efficiency of the Nissan Leaf compared to the old GM
EV1 or to Dave
Cloud's Dolphin. The Leaf appears to get about 3.5 miles/kwh in normal
driving and about 3
miles/kwh in 60 MPH freeway driving. In contrast the old GM EV1 is said to
get 5.95 miles/kwh at
60 MPH (= 168 wh/mile, see http://avt.inel.gov/pdf/fsev/eva/ev1_eva.pdf )
and Dave Cloud's
Dolphin gets 6.1 miles/kwh ( see:
http://www.facebook.com/note.php?note_id=10150134752770039 ).

Now the Leaf, at 3354 lbs is about 500 lbs heavier than the EV1 (at 2848
lbs) and about 150 lbs
heavier than the Dolphin (at 3200 lbs), but the main energy drain at 60 MPH
is air resistance,
and not weight, so it is hard to see that the weight difference (especially
compared to the Dolphin)
could explain the difference.

The drag coefficient of the Leaf is 0.28 compared with 0.195 for the EV1.
But if I use these
equations:

Rolling Resistance RR = rrc * weight
Drag = (0.5) * (rho) * (v**2) * Cd * A
HP = ( Drag + RR) * V)/550

For Leaf: rrc = 0.01
rho = 0.002378 (for all cars)
v = speed in feet/sec (e.g 60 MPH=88)
Cd = 0.28
A = 26 square feet
weight = 3354 lbs

So: RR = 3520 * .01 = 35.2
Drag = (0.5) * (0.002378) * (88^2) * 0.28 * 26 = 67
HP = ( ( 67 + 35.2) * 88)/550 = 16.08 HP

If I substitute the CD of the GM EV1 at 0.195, I get HP = 12.8. So this
would only increase the
miles/kwh from 3 to 3.76, which is nowhere close to 5.9 or 6.1

It could be that the EV1 mileage was obtained on a test track instead of a
real highway, but the
Dolphin got that mileage on a typical freeway. And while the Dolphin (built
for only $3000) is
certainly not a fully equipped comfortable car (but it is street legal), the
EV1 had a full
complement of safety and comfort features. And while the Dolphin was
specifically tailored for long
distance freeway driving in terms of streamlining and transmission, much of
its drive train was quite
inefficient due to the low cost construction.

So why does the leaf get nowhere near 5 miles/kwh in freeway driving?

-- 
Larry Gales




-- 
Larry Gales
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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

They run the heater, A/C and headlights all the time while driving with the
windows down and blaring the high power Kenwood?

Just a thought ;-)





> Larry Gales <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> > I am puzzled by the low efficiency of the Nissan Leaf compared to the old
> > GM
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Larry Gales wrote:
> > I am puzzled by the low efficiency of the Nissan Leaf compared to the old GM
> > EV1 or to Dave
> > Cloud's Dolphin. The Leaf appears to get about 3.5 miles/kwh in normal
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

I average 4.6 miles per kwh on my Leaf, and I don't always drive it
conservatively. I also charge to full every time. Leaf owners who
always drive for efficiency and charge to only 80 percent so they have
full regen from the start are getting substantially better.

Dave



> Larry Gales <[email protected]> wrote:
> > I am puzzled by the low efficiency of the Nissan Leaf compared to the old=
> GM
> > EV1 or to Dave
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

We can only imagine what a slightly redesigned EV1 gen3 would be like:

-Aerodynamics, weight, performance kept the same

-change to a 24kW li-ion pack like the Leaf EV, but the pack layout
would be slightly redesigned to better accomodate the above pack
(the gen2 NiMH pack was crammed into gen1's PbSO4 Horizon's pack
design).

-change the SPI to a dual inlet port, like the Leaf EV has, only
the on-board charger is full powered (240VAC @ 32A 7.6kW)

If everything else of the EV1 were kept the same, what would the 
EV1 gen3 range be with the above pack?

{brucedp.150m.com}



----- Original message -----
From: "Larry Gales" <[email protected]>
To: "SEVA" <[email protected]>, "Electric Vehicle Discussion List"
<[email protected]>
Date: Thu, 6 Oct 2011 17:22:43 -0700
Subject: [EVDL] Why is the Nissan Leaf so inefficient?

I am puzzled by the low efficiency of the Nissan Leaf compared to the
old GM
EV1 or to Dave
Cloud's Dolphin. The Leaf appears to get about 3.5 miles/kwh in normal
driving and about 3
miles/kwh in 60 MPH freeway driving. In contrast the old GM EV1 is said
to
get 5.95 miles/kwh at
60 MPH (= 168 wh/mile, see http://avt.inel.gov/pdf/fsev/eva/ev1_eva.pdf
)
and Dave Cloud's
Dolphin gets 6.1 miles/kwh ( see:
http://www.facebook.com/note.php?note_id=10150134752770039 ).

Now the Leaf, at 3354 lbs is about 500 lbs heavier than the EV1 (at 2848
lbs) and about 150 lbs
heavier than the Dolphin (at 3200 lbs), but the main energy drain at 60
MPH
is air resistance,
and not weight, so it is hard to see that the weight difference
(especially
compared to the Dolphin)
could explain the difference.

The drag coefficient of the Leaf is 0.28 compared with 0.195 for the
EV1.
But if I use these
equations:

Rolling Resistance RR = rrc * weight
Drag = (0.5) * (rho) * (v**2) * Cd * A
HP = ( Drag + RR) * V)/550

For Leaf: rrc = 0.01
rho = 0.002378 (for all cars)
v = speed in feet/sec (e.g 60 MPH=88)
Cd = 0.28
A = 26 square feet
weight = 3354 lbs

So: RR = 3520 * .01 = 35.2
Drag = (0.5) * (0.002378) * (88^2) * 0.28 * 26 = 67
HP = ( ( 67 + 35.2) * 88)/550 = 16.08 HP

If I substitute the CD of the GM EV1 at 0.195, I get HP = 12.8. So this
would only increase the
miles/kwh from 3 to 3.76, which is nowhere close to 5.9 or 6.1

It could be that the EV1 mileage was obtained on a test track instead of
a
real highway, but the
Dolphin got that mileage on a typical freeway. And while the Dolphin
(built
for only $3000) is
certainly not a fully equipped comfortable car (but it is street legal),
the
EV1 had a full
complement of safety and comfort features. And while the Dolphin was
specifically tailored for long
distance freeway driving in terms of streamlining and transmission, much
of
its drive train was quite
inefficient due to the low cost construction.

So why does the leaf get nowhere near 5 miles/kwh in freeway driving?

-- 
Larry Gales

-- 
http://www.fastmail.fm - Email service worth paying for. Try it for free

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

It appears you didn't substitute the A of the EV-1 in your calculations.

Also be careful with the numbers you're comparing, and under what
driving conditions those numbers were attained.





> Larry Gales <[email protected]> wrote:
> > I am puzzled by the low efficiency of the Nissan Leaf compared to the old=
> GM
> > EV1 or to Dave
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

There seem to be quite a few Leaf owners on EVDL. I haven't heard from 
any Volt owners. Are my perceptions skewed? Do we have some Volt 
owners?

-- 
Willie, ONWARD! Through the fog!
http://counter.li.org Linux registered user #228836 since 1995
Debian3.1/GNU/Linux system uptime 7 days 3 hours 57 minutes

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Not only that, it appears there's some error in getting from HP to
miles/kwh.

If 1 HP = .75 kw (roughly) then the 16 HP = 12 kw for one mile (in .016
hour), i.e., 12kw * .016hour = .192kwh/mile or 5.2 miles/kwh (for the
Leaf).

Using a CdA of 3.95sqft for the EV1 (.195 * 20.25 sq ft--obtained from
Wiki, but I've seen the number elsewhere) results in 
a drag force of 36.4 lb-f; using the HP formula, I get 11.45 HP or 
8.54 kw and for the mile, .137 kwh/mile or 7.31 miles/kwh. 

--Steve (long-time lurker)



> Peter Gabrielsson wrote:
> > It appears you didn't substitute the A of the EV-1 in your calculations.
> >
> > Also be careful with the numbers you're comparing, and under what
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

I could not find the "A" (frontal area) of the Leaf, so I used the same
value that I found for the Volt. If anyone knows the frontal area of the
Leaf, let me know.

-- Larry

On Thu, Oct 6, 2011 at 6:08 PM, Peter Gabrielsson <
[email protected]> wrote:

> It appears you didn't substitute the A of the EV-1 in your calculations.
>
> Also be careful with the numbers you're comparing, and under what
> driving conditions those numbers were attained.
>
>
>
>


> Larry Gales <[email protected]> wrote:
> > > I am puzzled by the low efficiency of the Nissan Leaf compared to the old
> > GM
> > > EV1 or to Dave
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Yes, I'm one.

Before they messed it up, my Volt was being clocked (by GM on MyVolt.com) at
30KWh/100 Miles, or 300Wh/Mile. For the last week it has been displaying 3
KWh/100 Miles! Somebody must have slipped the decimal...



> Willie McKemie <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> > There seem to be quite a few Leaf owners on EVDL. I haven't heard from
> > any Volt owners. Are my perceptions skewed? Do we have some Volt
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

I thought that this list was for EV's only.

Since the Volt's gas engine/generator is linked to the drive train, I don't see how we can consider 
it an EV and talk about the watt/hours it gets...

Rush Dougherty
www.TucsonEV.com


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Mike Scott" <[email protected]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, October 07, 2011 12:03 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Why is the Nissan Leaf so inefficient?


> Yes, I'm one.
>
> Before they messed it up, my Volt was being clocked (by GM on MyVolt.com) at
> 30KWh/100 Miles, or 300Wh/Mile. For the last week it has been displaying 3
> KWh/100 Miles! Somebody must have slipped the decimal...
>
>


> Willie McKemie <[email protected]> wrote:
> >
> >> There seem to be quite a few Leaf owners on EVDL. I haven't heard from
> >> any Volt owners. Are my perceptions skewed? Do we have some Volt
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Because if you drive it right, you don't use the gas at all.

Wayne Gerdes, hypermiler extrordinaire, has managed 6.7 miles/kWh in a Leaf
in photos I've seen, and around 5 miles/kWh in a Volt. That's just on
demo/test drives, no long term exposure to really get familiar with the car.



> Rush <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> > I thought that this list was for EV's only.
> >
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

According to the following web site, CdA is 6.94 for the Nissan Leaf. 
http://ecomodder.com/wiki/index.php/Vehicle_Coefficient_of_Drag_List

Mike

> -----Original Message-----
> From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On
> Behalf Of Larry Gales
> Sent: Friday, October 07, 2011 12:51 AM
> To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
> Cc: SEVA
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Why is the Nissan Leaf so inefficient?
> 
> I could not find the "A" (frontal area) of the Leaf, so I used the same
value
> that I found for the Volt. If anyone knows the frontal area of the Leaf,
let me
> know.
> 
> -- Larry
> 
> On Thu, Oct 6, 2011 at 6:08 PM, Peter Gabrielsson <


> > [email protected]> wrote:
> >
> > > It appears you didn't substitute the A of the EV-1 in your calculations.
> > >
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> On 7 Oct 2011 at 7:46, Dave Davidson wrote:
> 
> > it is certainly reasonable to talk about miles per kwh in electric
> > mode, as you would a BEV.
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

It would be good to corroborate this number. 

One technique someone mentioned a long way's back is: take a head-on picture
of your vehicle with as little perspective distortion as possible (like from
a long distance with zoom). Include an extended tape measure in the photo. 

Then, upload your photo and scale it on the screen. If you have any CAD
software, you then can easily trace the outline of the vehicle and let the
software compute the area. 

I'll try this when I have a chance.

Peri

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf
Of Mike Nickerson
Sent: 07 October, 2011 10:11 AM
To: 'Electric Vehicle Discussion List'
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Why is the Nissan Leaf so inefficient?

According to the following web site, CdA is 6.94 for the Nissan Leaf. 
http://ecomodder.com/wiki/index.php/Vehicle_Coefficient_of_Drag_List

Mike

> -----Original Message-----
> From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On 
> Behalf Of Larry Gales
> Sent: Friday, October 07, 2011 12:51 AM
> To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
> Cc: SEVA
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Why is the Nissan Leaf so inefficient?
> 
> I could not find the "A" (frontal area) of the Leaf, so I used the 
> same
value
> that I found for the Volt. If anyone knows the frontal area of the 
> Leaf,
let me
> know.
> 
> -- Larry
> 
> On Thu, Oct 6, 2011 at 6:08 PM, Peter Gabrielsson < 


> > [email protected]> wrote:
> >
> > > It appears you didn't substitute the A of the EV-1 in your calculations.
> > >
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> On 7 Oct 2011 at 12:29, Lee Hart wrote:
> 
> > > -Aerodynamics, weight, performance kept the same
> >
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Lee Hart wrote:
> >>> -Aerodynamics, weight, performance kept the same
> >> That we're doing.
> 
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Larry Gales <[email protected]> wrote:
> > I am puzzled by the low efficiency of the Nissan Leaf compared to the old=
> GM
> > EV1 or to Dave
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> David Rees wrote:
> 
> > > So why does the leaf get nowhere near 5 miles/kwh in freeway driving?
> 
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Roger Stockton <[email protected]> wrote:
> > I notice that your 'from-the-wall' numbers are very near to what the original poster stated are being reported for the Leaf.
> >
> > Could the answer be as simple as the EV1 numbers are from the battery while the numbers reported by ordinary users for their Leafs are measured from the wall and include charger and charging losses?
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> On 7 Oct 2011 at 14:47, Roger Stockton wrote:
> 
> > Interestingly, the EV1 test also states that the from-the-wall number is
> > 373Wh/mi: 2.68mi/kWh! (The test is for the NiMH version of the EV1.)
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> However, I don't have a problem discussing on this list a car that
> (theoretically*) can run for years without burning gasoline. I would
> certainly welcome comments about this, pro and con, at my offlist address
> (instructions below).
>
> That said, I would encourage you to rate all EV energy consumption in the
> EVDL's more or less standard units, Wh per mile, not in miles per kWh. That
> will let us better compare the factory EVs' consumption with ours. Thanks.
>
> *(From what I understand, GM's onboard firmware forces the Volt's engine to
> run a little now and then, so it stays limber.)

Why does it have to be offlist? This should be a discussion that the List participates in, not just 
a
few individuals... If it should be offlist, then as soon as the issue of discussing a Hybrid was
raised, it should have been taken off list.

It seems as if there are several contradictions in this email....
"I don't have a problem discussing on this list a car that (theoretically*) can run for years
without burning gasoline" vs. "onboard firmware forces the Volt's engine to run a little now and
then"

So which is it? Does the Volt in fact use the Gas engine that it has to augment the power to the 
drivetrain? Yes it does. According to the GM engineers, when certain parameters are met the, a 
clutch is engaged and the gas engine is coupled to the drive train.

"Wh per mile, not in miles per kWh. That will let us better compare the factory EVs' consumption 
with ours"Whatever the measurement is that you want to chose, does it include the gas that it burns 
because of "GM's onboard firmware"? Do these measurements include the monthly maintenance of the gas 
engine or not?

If not then it is not a true measure of the energy consumed to run the car.

Rush
www.TucsonEV.com





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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

>From what I understand, the NiMH batteries require large amounts of cooling
and are very inefficient to charge. I believe that charging a Lithium
battery is something like 88-90% efficient, so there is only a modest
difference between the wall and the dash values.

-- Larry



> EVDL Administrator <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> > On 7 Oct 2011 at 14:47, Roger Stockton wrote:
> >
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

My average has been 3.8 to 4.2 miles per kWh. I drive most of my miles at 55
to 65 and find that driving at 65 is not much different than at 55. I have
specific points along the way that I check my distances to get an idea of
how well I have been doing. I don't hyper mile at all. I do drive
conservative sometimes. I drive in power mode since it really makes no
difference at freeway speeds and no stopping. I do shift down into eco mode
to get the better regen while stopping. In town I drive in eco mode some of
the time. I drove today at 65 + and got just as good mileage as when I last
few times I drove at 55 mph. I do a 45 mile trip every day just to go to and
from work. All but 4 miles are on the freeway. I also found that if I put on
the cruise control I get worse mileage than if I just control it myself. I
will use the air if needed and the heat and defrost if needed. I also have
been checking others conversions and their miles per kWh and my Leaf is
right along with the others. I don't see it as an inefficient vehicle. A
steel bodied car that can do as good as the Leaf is doing very well. I'd
just like to see a larger pack in the car to get a real 100 mile range at 55
to 65 mph. I have an issue with the visors and with the center console cloth
covering. No comment yet on the heating/defrost system yet. Air conditioner
is excellent. Performance is good. 

Pete 

-----
If you don't understand, be patient, you will. Now I understand. 
--
View this message in context: http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/Why-is-the-Nissan-Leaf-so-inefficient-tp3880374p3884330.html
Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Under "to do and observe what happens" for LEAF owners: Fenderskirts, even =
ones made out of cardboard taped on for the test.
& I expect other aerodynamic mods will made.

And to whomever made the comment about "Chinese telegraph".. The most remar=
kable thing about China I experienced was the speed and accuracy of verbal =
transmission. Many people teaching in China attest that the 'non-govt" v=
ersion of what happened spread throughout the country in about two weeks ti=
me [pre- internet]

I don't shop where I can't charge.

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Makes sense if one factors inertial losses are minimal in hwy application - nice write-up and good info to consider when assessing overall efficiency. /Steve

-----Original Message-----
>From: gottdi <[email protected]>
>
>My average has been 3.8 to 4.2 miles per kWh. I drive most of my miles at 55
>to 65 and find that driving at 65 is not much different than at 55...
> 
>I don't see it as an inefficient vehicle...

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Peri Hartman wrote:
> 
> > It would be good to corroborate this number.
> >
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Peri Hartman wrote:
> > take a head-on picture of your vehicle with as little perspective
> > distortion as possible (like from a long distance with zoom).
> > Include an extended tape measure in the photo. Then, upload your
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Hi Lee,

Interesting and quite accurate way to get "close enough" 
to the actual frontal area of a vehicle.
Even easier and more accurate is to look up the
manufacturer's specs of the particular vehicle, for
most vehicle those are available online anyway.
The Nissan Leaf has a published front area of 2.27 sq meters. 
That works out to be 24.4 sq ft.

This is slightly less than Larry originally used
(he took 26 sq ft, from the frontal area of the Volt).
My idea of the higher consumption compared to EV1 is probably the
combination
of a couple small things, all adding up to a big difference:
- heavier vehicle
- deteriorated Cd
- larger frontal surface
- worse rolling resistance tires
- wheels not aligned for optimal drag but optimal comfort
- tires not pumped for optimal rolling resistance but for comfort
- Higher power for acceleration, causing more loss
- Limiting regen so more energy lost during braking
There are probably others, just a sample...
In addition most (new) drivers are used to excessive power so they do
not know how to drive economical

Cor van de Water
Chief Scientist
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
Email: [email protected] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water XoIP: +31877841130
Tel: +1 408 383 7626 Tel: +91 (040)23117400 x203 

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On
Behalf Of Lee Hart
Sent: Saturday, October 08, 2011 9:46 AM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Why is the Nissan Leaf so inefficient?



> Peri Hartman wrote:
> > take a head-on picture of your vehicle with as little perspective
> > distortion as possible (like from a long distance with zoom).
> > Include an extended tape measure in the photo. Then, upload your photo
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

The Leaf is a full electric - the Volt is a hybrid, and as such, not really 
relevant to the List.

Joseph H. Strubhar

Web: www.gremcoinc.com

E-mail: [email protected]



----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Willie McKemie" <[email protected]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, October 06, 2011 7:43 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Why is the Nissan Leaf so inefficient?


> There seem to be quite a few Leaf owners on EVDL. I haven't heard from
> any Volt owners. Are my perceptions skewed? Do we have some Volt
> owners?
>
> -- 
> Willie, ONWARD! Through the fog!
> http://counter.li.org Linux registered user #228836 since 1995
> Debian3.1/GNU/Linux system uptime 7 days 3 hours 57 minutes
>
> _______________________________________________
> | Moratorium on drag racing discussion is in effect.
> | Please take those discussions elsewhere. Thanks.
> |
> | REPLYING: address your message to [email protected] only.
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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> joe <[email protected]> wrote:
> > The Leaf is a full electric - the Volt is a hybrid, and as such, not
> really
> > relevant to the List.
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

On 10/7/2011 2:03 PM, David Rees wrote:
>


> Larry Gales<[email protected]> wrote:
> >> I am puzzled by the low efficiency of the Nissan Leaf compared to the old GM
> >> EV1 or to Dave
> >> Cloud's Dolphin. The Leaf appears to get about 3.5 miles/kwh in normal
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

My Leaf data.
Here is each day of the week that was cleaned up for posting.
Compliments of my complementary Nissan Telematics Service for CARWINGS.
I don't consider myself a hyper miler. 
The car is rather zippy and find myself driving more aggressively than I 
normally would, its fun! 
Living in an area requiring freeway and hilly driving have been the bane of my 
EV world as I traverse very few flat roads.
I do think the Carwings is being more generous than what I'm really getting. 


I know theirs been some discussion regarding the accuracy of Carwings and so 
perhaps you should just considered my Carwings data a rough guess.

Oct 8, 2011 Energy Economy 4.8 miles/kWh Level

Zero Emission Facts
Regional Average Energy Economy Rankings (last month): Your ranking was Silver. 
Gold rank required at least 5.0 miles/kWh.

miles/kWh Level 1&2=Average 3=Good 4&5=Very good

10/02 10/3 10/04 10/05 
10/06 10/07 10/08
Energy Economymiles/kWh4.94.6 5.3 4.34.35.6 4.8
Level43 5 3 35 4
Electricity consumed by the traction motor kWh8.53.512.7 12.3 9.414.8 
6.2
Level44 4 4 4 4 3
Electricity captured by regenerative braking kWh3.11.1 5.2 4.4 4.1 6.1 
2.8
Level434 4 4 4 5
Electricity consumed by vehicle accessories kWh0.30.41.2 1.4 1.90.7 
0.2
Level54 5 4 35 5

Danny Ames


________________________________
From: Roger Stockton <[email protected]>
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <[email protected]>
Sent: Fri, October 7, 2011 2:47:10 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Why is the Nissan Leaf so inefficient?



> David Rees wrote:
> 
> > > So why does the leaf get nowhere near 5 miles/kwh in freeway driving?
> 
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

>
>
>
> That said, I would encourage you to rate all EV energy consumption in the
> EVDL's more or less standard units, Wh per mile, not in miles per kWh.
> That
> will let us better compare the factory EVs' consumption with ours. Thanks.
>

When I read this comment, I was in strong agreement. However, after thinking
about it, I've somewhat changed my mind. I think if "industry" has already
started using "miles per kWh", why should we be resistant to follow suit?
For one thing, it seems to match up better with what everyone is used to -
"miles (or kilometers) per gallon (or liter)". Although I toss around and
use the w-h/mile figure on a daily basis, I wouldn't have a problem
switching around if it kept there from being a division.

-Ryan
-- 
- EV Source <http://www.evsource.com> -
Professional grade electric vehicle parts and resources
E-mail: mailto:[email protected]
Toll-free: 1-877-215-6781
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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Let me try this again with this ASCII format.

10/02 10/3 10/04 10/05 10/06 10/07 10/08
4.9 4.6 5.3 4.3 4.3 5.6 4.8 Energy 
Economymiles/kWh
8.5 3.5 12.7 12.3 9.4 14.8 6.2 Electricity 
consumed by the traction motorkWh
3.1 1.1 5.2 4.4 4.1 6.1 2.8 Electricity 
captured by regenerative braking kWh
0.3 0.4 1.2 1.4 1.9 0.7 0.2 
Electricity consumed by the vehicle accessorieskWh

________________________________
From: Danny Ames <[email protected]>
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <[email protected]>
Sent: Mon, October 10, 2011 10:11:24 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Why is the Nissan Leaf so inefficient?

My Leaf data.
Here is each day of the week that was cleaned up for posting.
Compliments of my complementary Nissan Telematics Service for CARWINGS.
I don't consider myself a hyper miler. 
The car is rather zippy and find myself driving more aggressively than I 
normally would, its fun! 
Living in an area requiring freeway and hilly driving have been the bane of my 
EV world as I traverse very few flat roads.
I do think the Carwings is being more generous than what I'm really getting. 


I know theirs been some discussion regarding the accuracy of Carwings and so 
perhaps you should just considered my Carwings data a rough guess.

Oct 8, 2011 Energy Economy 4.8 miles/kWh Level

Zero Emission Facts
Regional Average Energy Economy Rankings (last month): Your ranking was Silver. 
Gold rank required at least 5.0 miles/kWh.

miles/kWh Level 1&2=Average 3=Good 4&5=Very good

10/02 10/3 10/04 10/05 
10/06 10/07 10/08
Energy Economymiles/kWh4.94.6 5.3 4.34.35.6 4.8
Level43 5 3 35 4
Electricity consumed by the traction motor kWh8.53.512.7 12.3 9.414.8 
6.2
Level44 4 4 4 4 3
Electricity captured by regenerative braking kWh3.11.1 5.2 4.4 4.1 6.1 
2.8
Level434 4 4 4 5
Electricity consumed by vehicle accessories kWh0.30.41.2 1.4 1.90.7 
0.2
Level54 5 4 35 5

Danny Ames


________________________________
From: Roger Stockton <[email protected]>
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <[email protected]>
Sent: Fri, October 7, 2011 2:47:10 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Why is the Nissan Leaf so inefficient?



> David Rees wrote:
> 
> > > So why does the leaf get nowhere near 5 miles/kwh in freeway driving?
> 
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Wow, 40% of consumed electricity recaptured by regen,
you *are* in a hilly terrain!
Interesting also that the amount of accessory
energy consumption varies wildly up to 20% of
the consumption by the traction. I know that
the AirCo is the largest consumer, so I am
guessing that this is because of different
weather, some trips are with heavy AirCo use
and others not...

Still, with the zippy driving and hills your
consumption is just shy of 5 mi/kWh, or only
200Wh/mi, not bad!


Cor van de Water
Chief Scientist
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
Email: [email protected] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water XoIP: +31877841130
Tel: +1 408 383 7626 Tel: +91 (040)23117400 x203 

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On
Behalf Of Danny Ames
Sent: Monday, October 10, 2011 10:26 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Why is the Nissan Leaf so inefficient?

Let me try this again with this ASCII format.

10/02 10/3 10/04 10/05 10/06 10/07 10/08
4.9 4.6 5.3 4.3 4.3 5.6 4.8
Energy 
Economymiles/kWh
8.5 3.5 12.7 12.3 9.4 14.8 6.2
Electricity 
consumed by the traction motorkWh
3.1 1.1 5.2 4.4 4.1 6.1 2.8
Electricity 
captured by regenerative braking kWh
0.3 0.4 1.2 1.4 1.9 0.7 0.2

Electricity consumed by the vehicle accessorieskWh

________________________________
From: Danny Ames <[email protected]>
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <[email protected]>
Sent: Mon, October 10, 2011 10:11:24 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Why is the Nissan Leaf so inefficient?

My Leaf data.
Here is each day of the week that was cleaned up for posting.
Compliments of my complementary Nissan Telematics Service for CARWINGS.
I don't consider myself a hyper miler. 
The car is rather zippy and find myself driving more aggressively than I

normally would, its fun! 
Living in an area requiring freeway and hilly driving have been the bane
of my 
EV world as I traverse very few flat roads.
I do think the Carwings is being more generous than what I'm really
getting. 


I know theirs been some discussion regarding the accuracy of Carwings
and so 
perhaps you should just considered my Carwings data a rough guess.

Oct 8, 2011 Energy Economy 4.8 miles/kWh Level

Zero Emission Facts
Regional Average Energy Economy Rankings (last month): Your ranking was
Silver. 
Gold rank required at least 5.0 miles/kWh.

miles/kWh Level 1&2=Average 3=Good 4&5=Very good

10/02 10/3 10/04
10/05 
10/06 10/07 10/08
Energy Economymiles/kWh4.94.6 5.3 4.34.35.6 4.8
Level43 5 3 35 4
Electricity consumed by the traction motor kWh8.53.512.7 12.3
9.414.8 
6.2
Level44 4 4 4 4 3
Electricity captured by regenerative braking kWh3.11.1 5.2 4.4
4.1 6.1 
2.8
Level434 4 4 4 5
Electricity consumed by vehicle accessories kWh0.30.41.2 1.4
1.90.7 
0.2
Level54 5 4 35 5

Danny Ames


________________________________
From: Roger Stockton <[email protected]>
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <[email protected]>
Sent: Fri, October 7, 2011 2:47:10 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Why is the Nissan Leaf so inefficient?



> David Rees wrote:
> 
> > > So why does the leaf get nowhere near 5 miles/kwh in freeway
> driving?
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

From: Danny Ames <[email protected]>
> Let me try this again with this ASCII format.

Ah; that's better. I took out some of the extra spaces to make it line up.

> 10/2 10/3 10/4 10/5 10/6 10/7 10/8
> 4.9 4.6 5.3 4.3 4.3 5.6 4.8 Energy Economy miles/kWh
> 8.5 3.5 12.7 12.3 9.4 14.8 6.2 traction motor kWh
> 3.1 1.1 5.2 4.4 4.1 6.1 2.8 regenerative braking kWh
> 0.3 0.4 1.2 1.4 1.9 0.7 0.2 vehicle accessories kWh

The data is interesting. It looks like the daily miles driven is low (67.4 kWh x 4.8miles/kWh = 323.5 miles/week = 46 miles/day); perfect for an EV (even lead-acid).

I'm surprised at how much regen there is (about a third of your traction motor power). It implies lots of hard braking. Do you live in a hilly region, or do lots of stop-n-go? Since about half of regen enery is lost, your energy efficiency would be significantly better if you can minimize this braking.

The accessory power was very high on 10/6. Did you use the A/C a lot that day?

--
Those who say it cannot be done should not interrupt the one who is
doing it. -- Chinese proverb
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart-at-earthlink.net

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----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Cor van de Water wrote:
> 
> > Still, with the zippy driving and hills your
> > consumption is just shy of 5 mi/kWh, or only
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

I get 3.8 to 4.2 miles per kwh. This is consistent and real world driving. I
drive 45 miles per day at an over all average of 60 mph. All the miles are
highway except 4. I charge to 100% daily and rarely ever go more than my
average of 45 miles in any given day. I charge to 100% because I never need
regen until I am well down the road before the first light. I use my air
quite a bit on the return trip home and still retain an average of 3.8 to
4.2 miles per KWH. I would sat that my style of driving and my commute and
use means I have a car that can go about 80 miles if a few more miles were
in town. I never drive till dead and rarely ever drove into the red zone. I
actually did twice. Never into limp mode. Limp mode to me is totally dead
and useless. I am finding that the heater is a killer for my overall
distance. I can still go to work and back but the overall distance is far
less. I preheat if needed and only kick the defrost on to clear the window
briefly. More to come on that later. Distance with COLD batteries is not
hurt much if I leave the heater off. The car should use the heat pump more
than a toaster style heater. We only need the heat pump for our home so why
would the car need more? Preheating while plugged in only takes from the
wall. 

PS. I also drive in power mode. Since we have few stops eco mode is pretty
useless. Eco mode is for intercity stop and go driving. Not for freeway
driving. 

-----
If you don't understand, be patient, you will. Now I understand. 
--
View this message in context: http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/Why-is-the-Nissan-Leaf-so-inefficient-tp3880374p3894500.html
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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> On 10 Oct 2011 at 23:15, Ryan Bohm wrote:
> 
> > > That said, I would encourage you to rate all EV energy consumption in the
> > > EVDL's more or less standard units, Wh per mile, not in miles per kWh.
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> gottdi wrote:
> 
> > I get 3.8 to 4.2 miles per kwh. This is consistent and real world
> > driving. I
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> EVDL Administrator wrote:
> 
> > On 10 Oct 2011 at 23:15, Ryan Bohm wrote:
> >
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Martin,

Not sure who you are directing your comment to, but I do have a Leaf
and it does have the chademo quick charge port. My understanding is
that one cannot be added later. I have not used mine, but did have a
chance to plug and unplug one at the Nissan Leaf tour. It was really
quite easy, not at all awkward although it looks like it. When some
start showing up on the east coast, I expect to start getting some use
out of it.

Dave

On 10/11/11, Martin WINLOW <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>


> EVDL Administrator wrote:
> >
> >> On 10 Oct 2011 at 23:15, Ryan Bohm wrote:
> >>
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Martin,

Yes, I have a Leaf and I do have the chademo option but no outlets in my
neck of the woods yet. We are going to be putting together a demo soon about
charging fast. Stay tuned, I will let every one know when it happens. 

Pete 

-----
If you don't understand, be patient, you will. Now I understand. 
--
View this message in context: http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/Why-is-the-Nissan-Leaf-so-inefficient-tp3880374p3895795.html
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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

I realized it sounds like we are doing fast charging for the Leaf but it's
not. It's not. It's for the DIY builds. 

-----
If you don't understand, be patient, you will. Now I understand. 
--
View this message in context: http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/Why-is-the-Nissan-Leaf-so-inefficient-tp3880374p3895961.html
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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

I realized it sounds like we are doing fast charging for the Leaf but it's
not. It's not. It's for the DIY builds. 

-----
If you don't understand, be patient, you will. Now I understand. 
--
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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> EVDL Administrator <[email protected]> wrote:
> > On 10 Oct 2011 at 23:15, Ryan Bohm wrote:
> >
> >> > That said, I would encourage you to rate all EV energy consumption in =
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Clearly I did not drive an EV-1 but after my experiences with LEAD and not
just the one I made and drove, I can't imagine that the EV-1 ever going 68
miles at freeway speeds ever. If you say YOU did then I'd love to see those
magic lead acid batteries and say that we must get them back into the mix.
What was the useable KW of the pack? I have a 24 KW pack. What did the EV-1
carry that was actually usable? I have no doubt that the EV-1 was an
excellent vehicle and don't think that the Leaf is as good mileage wise but
for the batteries used between the two I can't imagine it going 68 miles. I
get only 75 miles average at 55 to 65 mph in the Leaf. With batteries way
better than any lead acid cells the EV-1 must have been stuffed so full that
you had no room for any thing else. I can't image that was the case either.
I have seen on and was up close and personal with one. My Ghia was not much
smaller. Very limited space. Now I do know it was purpose built for all
electric and I am sure more batteries could have been fit but not double
what I had in my Ghia. I was lucky to get 20 miles at 55 mph and with that
the power available was horrible at the 20 mile mark. I have seen no lead
car that can do much better for the size of pack. Granted the EV-1 had a
higher voltage but still most only get about 20 to 35 miles at freeway
speeds. If you have a truck you might get enough in to get you a bit
further. 

Even the NIMH cells were not as good as lithium in the EV-1 or not. Sorry,
you have not convinced me. Do you have sources where I could go to verify
your claims? Or do I just believe what is said? I already did that when I
started into the EV thing. I believed what I read on the EVphoto album and
most claims were just bogus. Same as the Leaf being a 100 mile car. BS. It
is a 70 mile car give or take depending upon how you drive. Some might
squeeze out 100 miles but those are the hypermiller folks. 

Pete 

-----
If you don't understand, be patient, you will. Now I understand. 
--
View this message in context: http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/Why-is-the-Nissan-Leaf-so-inefficient-tp3880374p3896528.html
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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Google on "EV-1 range," my experience was not uncommon. It had 53 or 60 Ahr=
lead acid batteries at 312 Volts, for 16.5 and 18.7 kWhr. I don't remember=
if I rented the 53 or 60 Ahr version, but even with the 60 Ahr batteries t=
hat was 3.6 miles per kWhr -- that's 275 Whr/mi. That's good, even to be ex=
pected with such an aerodynamic car, but not unbelievable.

Anyway, too bad the Leaf didn't go for the teardrop shaped, full aero treat=
ment. I'm surprised companies think it is better business to throw expensiv=
e batteries at a car rather than make it more efficient.



----- Original Message -----
From: gottdi <[email protected]>
To: [email protected]
Cc: =

Sent: Tuesday, October 11, 2011 7:22 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Why is the Nissan Leaf so inefficient?

Clearly I did not drive an EV-1 but after my experiences with LEAD and not
just the one I made and drove, I can't imagine that the EV-1 ever going 68
miles at freeway speeds ever. If you say YOU did then I'd love to see those
magic lead acid batteries and say that we must get them back into the mix.
What was the useable KW of the pack? I have a 24 KW pack. What did the EV-1
carry that was actually usable? I have no doubt that the EV-1 was an
excellent vehicle and don't think that the Leaf is as good mileage wise but
for the batteries used between the two I can't imagine it going 68 miles. I
get only 75 miles average at 55 to 65 mph in the Leaf. With batteries way
better than any lead acid cells the EV-1 must have been stuffed so full that
you had no room for any thing else. I can't image that was the case either.
I have seen on and was up close and personal with one. My Ghia was not much
smaller. Very limited space. Now I do know it was purpose built for all
electric and I am sure more batteries could have been fit but not double
what I had in my Ghia. I was lucky to get 20 miles at 55 mph and with that
the power available was horrible at the 20 mile mark. I have seen no lead
car that can do much better for the size of pack. Granted the EV-1 had a
higher voltage but still most only get about 20 to 35 miles at freeway
speeds. If you have a truck you might get enough in to get you a bit
further. =


Even the NIMH cells were not as good as lithium in the EV-1 or not. Sorry,
you have not convinced me. Do you have sources where I could go to verify
your claims? Or do I just believe what is said? I already did that when I
started into the EV thing. I believed what I read on the EVphoto album and
most claims were just bogus. Same as the Leaf being a 100 mile car. BS. It
is a 70 mile car give or take depending upon how you drive. Some might
squeeze out 100 miles but those are the hypermiller folks. =


Pete 

-----
If you don't understand, be patient, you will. Now I understand. 
--
View this message in context: http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.41352=
9.n4.nabble.com/Why-is-the-Nissan-Leaf-so-inefficient-tp3880374p3896528.html
Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at Nabb=
le.com.

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

I am getting a clean 3.8 to 4.2 miles per KWH. That is better than the EV-1
and those results are at 55 to 65 mph. I drive it daily and since I have had
the car I have been getting those results. This is also with a steel bodied
car over fiberglass and room for 5 rather than 2. Plenty of room for more
cells too. I'd like to see a 35kw pack and to have it flatter than how it is
now. 

Pete 

I have seen the specs stating specific miles per charge but its not stating
any more than any others have done. It depends upon how you drive. At 35 to
45 mph you might get those miles. I talk about how most drive. Like reality.
Still have not found the KW rating of the pack in either lead or NIMH. 

-----
If you don't understand, be patient, you will. Now I understand. 
--
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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Gottdi wrote:
> 
> > Clearly I did not drive an EV-1 but after my experiences with LEAD and not
> > just the one I made and drove, I can't imagine that the EV-1 ever going 68
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Hi Pete,

Before you make more unsubstantiated claims,
here is a link to the actual baseline performance
test reports of several Evs from 1994-1999 and if
you browse a little further, even new Evs such as
the 2009 Mini.
http://www1.eere.energy.gov/vehiclesandfuels/avta/light_duty/fsev/fsev_e
va_results.html

This shows the EV1 in the standard driving cycle at 
164Wh/mi or 6mi/kWh getting a range of 78 mi and in
the constant 60MPH cycle getting the same Wh/mi but
a range of 89mi. (This is for the 97 Lead-Acid EV-1)
It seems you will be eating some of your words...

(the link has been posted before here and on other
lists, but only the older members may remember this )

Happy reading ;-)

Cor van de Water
Chief Scientist
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
Email: [email protected] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water XoIP: +31877841130
Tel: +1 408 383 7626 Tel: +91 (040)23117400 x203 

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On
Behalf Of gottdi
Sent: Tuesday, October 11, 2011 7:38 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Why is the Nissan Leaf so inefficient?

I am getting a clean 3.8 to 4.2 miles per KWH. That is better than the
EV-1 and those results are at 55 to 65 mph. I drive it daily and since I
have had the car I have been getting those results. This is also with a
steel bodied car over fiberglass and room for 5 rather than 2. Plenty of
room for more cells too. I'd like to see a 35kw pack and to have it
flatter than how it is now. 

Pete 

I have seen the specs stating specific miles per charge but its not
stating any more than any others have done. It depends upon how you
drive. At 35 to
45 mph you might get those miles. I talk about how most drive. Like
reality.
Still have not found the KW rating of the pack in either lead or NIMH. 

-----
If you don't understand, be patient, you will. Now I understand. 
--
View this message in context:
http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/Why-is-the-
Nissan-Leaf-so-inefficient-tp3880374p3896659.html
Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at
Nabble.com.

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Willie McKemie wrote:
> > On Mon, Oct 10, 2011 at 10:51:21PM -0700, Cor van de Water wrote:
> >
> > > Still, with the zippy driving and hills your
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Willie McKemie <[email protected]> wrote:
> > This discussion stimulated me to take a look at my CarWings data.
> >
> > In about 4.5 months of driving and 6500 miles, CarWings tells us our
> ...


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