# 2001 "REV4" - Build Thread



## gdirwin (Apr 7, 2009)

*Day 1 - Decoding Toyota Tach signals?*

First day of "work" (if you can call it that).

Took lots of measurements, played with sensors etc... 

For the record, stock vehicle height (ground to fender) is:
- front: 31"
- back: 30"


Originally I was going to put resistors into all wiring harnesses to sensors 
etc... (to fake out the ECM to think it was still connected to an ICE so the 
Check Engine Light (CEL) would not activate) - I quickly gave up on this as 
there must be >20 sensors on this thing - some have 4 or 5 wires (not 
just simple resistive circuits). I will probably re-wire the CEL light to be a 
trouble indicator from the controller or batteries (to be decided).

Along the way I got to use my ODBII code reader - I bought an 
inexpensive ELM327 USB device - you connect one end to your computer 
(drivers and software are a free download) and the other to the ODBII 
port, and you can read codes, clear codes, see about 100 different engine 
measurments etc... Highly recommended for the $50 it costs.


The only real sensor I have to deal with directly is the crankshaft position 
sensor (CPS) - I believe this drives the tachometer, so I will have to 
interface to the stock wiring harness in some way. Here is where the fun 
begins:

Before I remove the gas ICE, I connected an oscilloscope to the CPS 
signal (2 wires), then recorded what it looks like at different RPMs. 
The scope is set for 5V per division, and 1 msec per division.

Here is what I saw (again everyone loves pics):
- idle (dash tach shows 750 rpm)









- 2000 rpm









- 3000 rpm









This translates into:
Tach RPM CPS Signal Ratio (CPS Hz/Tach Hz)
750 +/- 6V (peak), 425 Hz 34.0
2000 +/- 12.5V (peak), 1222 Hz 36.7
3000 +/- 12.5V (peak), 1777 Hz 35.5


36 seems like a nice round number, so this indicates that for every turn of 
the motor, I have to generate a 36 Hz sine wave.

I was a bit surprised by the sin waves - I was fully expecting square 
waves (perhaps PWM), which were either -12, 0 or 12V - has anyone else 
seen this with a Toyota tach signal?


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## efan (Aug 27, 2009)

*Re: Day 1 - Decoding Toyota Tach signals?*

these are some big pics....hard to see anything as they dont even fit in a 19" screen


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## gdirwin (Apr 7, 2009)

Whoa - way too big - they are a bit smaller now...


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## gdirwin (Apr 7, 2009)

*Re: Day 1 - Decoding Toyota Tach signals?*



> 36 seems like a nice round number, so this indicates that for every turn of the motor, I have to generate a 36 Hz sine wave.


I just noticed that the oscilloscope was set to AC coupling, which removes the DC component... I was still expecting a square wave which was either 0 or some other voltage... I think the AC coupling in the scope may also be distorting the waveform somehow...

I will repeat the test with the DC offset kept.



Google searching is amazing - I found this video explaining the different sensor types:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RuIislTGOwA

I probably have a Hall effect type sensor,,,



I still think I need a 36 toothed wheel (or maybe 34?)... I haven't found a picture of the crank timing pully from this engine - it will look something like this (although this is from a different Toyota engine):









I am still digging to find out more about Toyota VVT - I think the CPS (or CKP) sensor also feeds the spark plugs (there are igniters directly above each cylinder) so I do not want to generate a test signal into the ECM when the engine is still connected - the tach test may have to wait until the engine is out.


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## RKM (Jun 9, 2008)

Garth,

Congrats on the official start to your conversion! It almost sounds like a religious process doesn't it? I've been waiting for you to get this thread started. Let the journey begin...

Your's will be interesting to watch for at least a couple of reasons. First off, you are doing a high end build on a vehicle that will suit your family requirements. It sounds like you are prepared to spend the money and limit the compromise. Secondly, your background is electronics. I know you have ambitious plans for a tres cool control system interface.

Re. Batt selection

I don't want to sound unsympathetic, but the many of us who have wrestled to put batts in small cars are envious of the space available in an SUV. Had to deal with that first. I realize you still need to work with the dimensions available and that height is the real issue. My boxes are 13" tall from outside top of lid to the outside bottom. The cells are very nearly 11.25" to the top of the post. I have only about 1/4 of an inch to spare. The BMS takes up some space. 

You had mentioned using 65 X 100Ah with a 1000A controller and pulling 5C. Maybe I missed it, are you intending two packs in parallel to get 200Ah which would give you 5C to drive the 1000A controller. If the 65 cells are in series, you would reach 10C to power 1000A (?). I know TS has increased the max surge rating to 12 or so, but I'd rather keep the draw as low as possible. My max C should be about 4.4 which is still plenty high. This string would also have a nominal voltage of 208, max 250. I'd be surprised if the Warp 11 will handle this high a voltage (Warp 9 rated to 170V). Are you planning to limit max voltage to the contoller?

If you opt for relatively low Ah cells, could you consider adding a cap bank to handle the brief high current load for acceleration?

I like those 240Ah, would make a great match for the controller. The height works so well, shame you can't fit the length. 

Decisions, decisions. BTW, I appreciate your tongue in cheek comment defining spark plug!

Rob


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## dimitri (May 16, 2008)

Since you aim for high voltage you will never pull 5C from the pack. 1000 amps controller means 1000 amps on the motor side, not the battery. If you go for 65 cells ( 208V nominal ) you will probably pull 300amps during acceleration, which is perfect 3C for 100ah cells. Cruising will be about 100amps, which is perfect 1C rate. Still, try to pack as many cells as possible to add voltage if you stick to 100 ah cells, to reduce current.

That sine wave is fine, I had same exact signal on my Mazda. You need 36 tooth wheel, which may need one gap ( one tooth removed ). See my Protege build thread, I have pics of the tooth wheel I made for RPM signal.

You will need a shop manual, get one, it has all these signals documented, helps a lot...

Good luck, seems like a very interesting and ambitious project.

I had same goals with my Protege, no compromise EV, turned out well, but being in warm and flat Florida helps a lot , you will have more challenges in Canada, but its all doable.


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## gdirwin (Apr 7, 2009)

Thanks Rob/Dimitri:

The height restriction means low amp batteries - this pushes the higher voltage design. I agree that this is a problem for the Warp motors - I hope the Warp 11HV motor is available soon ( http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showthread.php/future-netgain-offerings-35627.html) as this sounds ideal.

Once I remove all junk, I will take more accurate measurements and see if those 240Ahs will fit, which gives me a LV option...

I have the Haynes manual, but it is not great. I looked but am having problems finding the 2001 RAV4 factory service manual - Toyota has a TIS service that allows US citizens to download all for $15 for 2 days, but this is not available to Canadians...

Dimitri - I re-read your build thread and now I understand - interesting that yours had only 35 teeth. I will go to a wrecker and buy the 36 tooth crank timing sprocket as well as the stock crank position sensor. I plan to keep a rear shaft on the motor, and will use it for the A/C compressor (no A/C when stopped though). I will have to figure out what size of pulley to use (as the motor rpms will be higher than the stock ICE) and how to mount the toothed wheel to the pully...

Thanks for the feedback - much appreciated!


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## Dave Koller (Nov 15, 2008)

http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showthread.php/getting-rid-pcm-saturn-30356.html

Different car - of course - but thought you might like the musings about the various sine to square waves of my Saturn... Nothing so simple!


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## gdirwin (Apr 7, 2009)

Thanks Dave - I see you have been there - done that. I will plan to keep the ECM and tach as-is - hopefully I can add the stock crank sensor and toothed wheel to the rear shaft, and it will all work...


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## Dave Koller (Nov 15, 2008)

http://www.saturn.offical.net/node/326

Did you see this buried in my "getting rid of PCM" thread? well we went direct for the tach - past the PCM - in the Saturn the PCM's only use now is for the electronic signals from the VSS to the Odometer and Speedometer - and I think I have that figured out enought to tale out the PCM - but for now I will use it..

Is it the same on yours ? VSS signals from the Trans tell you miles\speed? and old crank told you rpms?


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## Bowser330 (Jun 15, 2008)

gdirwin said:


> Thanks Rob/Dimitri:
> 
> The height restriction means low amp batteries - this pushes the higher voltage design. *I agree that this is a problem for the Warp motors - I hope the Warp 11HV motor is available soon ( *http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showthread.php/future-netgain-offerings-35627.html) as this sounds ideal.


Kostov Motors: Kostov 11" can handle high voltage and high amperage and are available now.

They may not handle 1000A as long as a Warp-11 but for a family car Rav4, The kostov should be sufficient. 

It is also more than 1000$ less costly....

Kostov motor offerings...

http://kostov-motors.com/tractionmotors/kostovevmotors&kits/seriesdcmotorsforelectricvehicleconversions/

Kostov 11" @192V Power graph

http://kostov-motors.com/files/productattachments/da0012f5e806b95241ea09d19be9abe3_11-192V.pdf


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## gdirwin (Apr 7, 2009)

Dave - I think they work the same as yours - toothed wheel on crank pulley, into Hall sensor, then into ECM, and out to the tach. I have not found the VSS yet, but I think you are right that it is in the transmission - I will keep the stock manual transmission and AWD transfer case, so I should not have to touch this. My airbags also seem to interface to the ECM (maybe they are speed sensitive somehow?), so another good reason to keep the ECM.

Bowser330 - good point on the Kostov's - I have been reading lots and they seem to be much more involved lately and a comeback seems on its way - all good!

I also read about using the stock power steering pump attached to the motor 2nd shaft (see post 6 here: http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showthread.php/power-steering-argh-37556.html ). I now have the A/C, power steering and crankshaft position sensor sprocket all run of the motor. I think there is lots of room (below the batteries) so its worth a shot - I could always change it later and add the EHPS pump!


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## RKM (Jun 9, 2008)

I also read about using the stock power steering pump attached to the motor 2nd shaft (see post 6 here: http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showthread.php/power-steering-argh-37556.html ). I now have the A/C, power steering and crankshaft position sensor sprocket all run of the motor. I think there is lots of room (below the batteries) so its worth a shot - I could always change it later and add the EHPS pump![/quote]

Garth, 

The obvious downside for PS off the tailshaft is that you won't have it when you most need it i.e. low speed parking. The EHPS pump from Toyota has worked well for me (okay only two miles driven).

Rob


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## Dave Koller (Nov 15, 2008)

gdirwin said:


> Dave - My airbags also seem to interface to the ECM (maybe they are speed sensitive somehow?), so another good reason to keep the ECM.


Saturn is separate from PCM (ECM).. Get a good look to see about yours..


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## gdirwin (Apr 7, 2009)

Hi Dave:

The ECM even has wiring to the ABS braking system and A/C system (in addition to the airbags) - not sure if this is only for the check engine light/diagnostics, or if there is more to it. I think I will plan to keep the ECM for now. 

I did spent some time mapping out all of the sensors and which trouble codes light up - I was originally planning to fake out each sensor with resistors etc... (so the CEL light would stay off), but it got too complex (the 1 or 2 wire sensors would be easy, but some sensors have 4 or 5 wires, such as MAF etc...).


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## dimitri (May 16, 2008)

gdirwin said:


> Hi Dave:
> 
> The ECM even has wiring to the ABS braking system and A/C system (in addition to the airbags) - not sure if this is only for the check engine light/diagnostics, or if there is more to it. I think I will plan to keep the ECM for now.
> 
> I did spent some time mapping out all of the sensors and which trouble codes light up - I was originally planning to fake out each sensor with resistors etc... (so the CEL light would stay off), but it got too complex (the 1 or 2 wire sensors would be easy, but some sensors have 4 or 5 wires, such as MAF etc...).


I've gone thru all same steps with 2003 Mazda, analysed every sensor, etc. Don't bother simulating all sensors, its a waste of time. All you need is the RPM signal from the engine, all other engine sensors can be cut off. All transmission sensors ( VSS mainly ) should remain. ECU should remain, there is more benefit in keeping ECU than in removing it, why remove it if its not causing any troubles?

As for CEL light, don't even bother, just cut the CEL light wire at the instrument cluster harness and use it for other EV purpose, like controller fault light in Soliton1, works great....


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## Dave Koller (Nov 15, 2008)

I will retain my temp and fuel gauge but will bypass the PCM to my own processor..

I tried the "fooling" of the PCM but ran into all the missing RPM and timing signals also...

I will have all the lights bypassed to use as fit..

I also have a full backup of gauges ie volts, amps, SOC, etc.


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## dimitri (May 16, 2008)

In addition to RPM, another OEM engine sensor I used was coolant temp sensor. I epoxied the sensor into one of the lift holes in Warp9 and added 5k trimpot in parallel to the sensor to lower its resistance, to allow meaningful range on the temp gauge, since EV motor has much cooler temp range compared to ICE. Now I can look at the temp gauge and see if my motor is overheating, nice and simple


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## Dave Koller (Nov 15, 2008)

dimitri said:


> In addition to RPM, another OEM engine sensor I used was coolant temp sensor. I epoxied the sensor into one of the lift holes in Warp9 and added 5k trimpot in parallel to the sensor to lower its resistance, to allow meaningful range on the temp gauge, since EV motor has much cooler temp range compared to ICE. Now I can look at the temp gauge and see if my motor is overheating, nice and simple


Summed up perfectly! I will complicate mine ONLY after I have all the needed things doing a needed job ... Errrr then lookout because the digital is gonna be all mine ... I love audio (talking tour of EV complete with leds to show "Parts) and a dash that talks to me if I am getting too hot on the motor, controller, batteries - high RPM's ---- aww you get the idea....


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## gdirwin (Apr 7, 2009)

Some great ideas here - I think I will walk before I run though - will think about all of the other lights later... I would have to have lots of spare time on my hands to work on the "talking dash" concept.

Since we are day-dreaming, I eventually will add a car-pc - it will have GPS/navigation, rear camera, fm radio, media player, weather, wireless internet, e-mail, engine diagnostics/OBDII interface, battery monitoring, bluetooth cell phone and voice dialing etc... There are some nice touchscreens that fold into a double din pc enclosure (need to find a bright one that works at -40C though)... No shortage of things you can do once there is a pc onboard... "Flash" is important (again I defintely am not an EV purist with statements like this).

I looked for some general purpose analog to digital I/O boards to connect to the PC (need many inputs for battery monitoring) - instead I will probably get a PakTrakr, which streams a CSV string every 1 sec, which can be captured onto the PC and decoded, plotted etc...

One thing at a time though - first to pull the motor and ICE junk!


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## gdirwin (Apr 7, 2009)

Made some progress on Saturday - most of the junk is away from the motor, just have the motor to pull. Only hacked 1 part to bits (short exhaust section) and all parts in good condition... Lots of Toyota fiddling required though (I curse the engineer who designed the power steering pump mount!).

*Key tip: *Before you start, have the Air Conditioner refrigerant evacuated at a shop! Releasing the refrigerant (both R12 and R134a) is VERY bad for the environment. Rob (RKM) warned me about this and I promptly forgot. Fortunately I have a friend in the A/C business (thanks Malcolm!) who is bringing by a portable purging unit.

The A/C has to be discharged for 2 reasons:
1) to get the condenser out of the way to pull the motor (same size as the main radiator and directly in front of it).
2) To remove the interior heater core, it may be necessary to remove the evaporator coil (mine does require this).

Pictures next weekend once the engine is pulled and the engine compartment is free of the clutter.


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## gdirwin (Apr 7, 2009)

I had an portable A/C evac unit lined up, but residential A/C fittings are not the same as auto A/C fittings. Shops around here would not sell me the R134A fittings, as you have to show them an A/C license.

Ended up towing the car to a shop - $45 later, the A/C system is evacuated. 

How NOT to tow a car:












PITA - but I couldn't release the R134 refrigerant into the air (legally and ethically - would have tainted my "green" REV4 . Wish I "had my ears" on and did this while it was still running...

Removed all hoses, and tied up the ends with plastic bags/elastics (to keep the air/moisture/rust out.

Good to have the A/C disconnected though - made for easy access (now that the condenser and hoses are out of the way). Since I will imbed ceramic heaters into the heater core, I will have to disconnect the A/C anyway (to get at the heater core).


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## gdirwin (Apr 7, 2009)

*How NOT to Pull a Motor on a RAV4 AWD*

How NOT to pull a motor:

1) Never use your child's swingset:


2) Use proper chain hoists
Come-alongs are not made for lifting.










3) Make sure you read the factory manual and drop the motor as recommended by the manufacturer.
Toyota factory service manual tells you to keep the motor and transmission together (I have an AWD, so its the motor, transmission and transfer case). I clearly thought this was smoke and mirrors, so managed to pull just the motor and went straight up. I liked this approach as it leaves the drive shafts, cv joints, steering, brakes etc.,.. untouched. That said, it is a pain to do. 

If anyone else tries this:
- remove everything from the front of the motor (power steering, water pump, crankshaft pulley, A/C, alternator, passenger side motor mount etc...
- remove the front transmission mount, and lift slightly (to give room for the transmission to clear the lower frame member (or unbolt the frame member).
- separate the motor and transmission as much as you can, then unbolt the 6 clutch bolts (slowly releasing each bolt a bit at a time) - you can rotate the motor/crank and unbolt the bolts from the clutch to the flywheel from the top
- move the clutch pressure plate back onto the transmission and remove the clutch disc
- there should now be JUST enough room (1/2" to spare?) to lift the motor straight up - see photo below:










Despite these pitfalls, we managed to get the motor out via the top - hurray!
Photo below has some of the junk on the front re-added.


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## RKM (Jun 9, 2008)

Garth,

Despite the hassle and cost, you know you did the right thing by properly evacuating the refridgerent. I think I told you this story already. When I contacted my local Ag dealer about a service call out to evacuate my AC, he looked at me and said "You know, most people would have an "accidental" leak." Like you, I explained that releasing the R134A to the atmosphere wouldn't fit well with a Green car project. It cost me $75 but that was a service call, no tow required.

Glad to hear your progress. Fun, isn't it?

Take care.

Rob


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## gdirwin (Apr 7, 2009)

*Oh-oh - big problem! Which motor will fit?*

Oh-oh - big problem...

Look at these pictures - top view:









Manual transmission is on the right, AWD transfer case (top) bolts to the transmission, and has a rear drive shaft exiting toward the vehicle rear (not shown).

and side view (zoomed in):










The manual transmission bell housing is plenty wide, but the transfer case (remember, this is AWD with a transverse motor mount) sticks out and really limits how big of a motor can fit.

I was hoping to build a rocket, and maybe use a Warp 11 or Warp 11 HV motor, but this clearly is out of the question. My fallback was to settle for a Warp 9, however even this is questionable.

The Warp 9 diameter is 9.25" - I have just enough room for 4", 19/32, equals 9.1875".

This is too close to call - can anyone confirm that the Warp 9 is exactly 9.25" diameter?

I thought about pounding in the differential cover on the transfer case, but it looks like some sort of composite and probably will not bend nicely...

Now I know why no-one converts AWD (and here I thought it was just the wasted range).

Any ideas?


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## Jimdear2 (Oct 12, 2008)

*Re: Oh-oh - big problem! Which motor will fit?*



gdirwin said:


> Oh-oh - big problem...
> 
> Look at these pictures - top view:
> 
> ...


A possibilty????
Look into a 1 to 1, or some advantagous ratio (depending on the motor RPM) right angle drive unit. Admittedly heavy but it looks like the only answer for a round motor while keeping the AWD.

Edit; Build an offset gear set into the adapter plate, allowing you to mount the motor parallel with the trans shaft but a few inches forward or above for clearnce.


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## everanger (Sep 7, 2009)

maybe make a "custom"cover for the diff .you might have 1/2 inch or so of wasted space between the ring gear and the cover.


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## kittydog42 (Sep 18, 2007)

There are several motors that you can use available from any Netgain dealer.

WarP 7", WarP 8", ImPulse 8", and Advanced DC 8". The Advanced DC is available single or double shafted, but the others are only available double shafted.


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## Dave Koller (Nov 15, 2008)

Curious - how much room have you got from the shaft toward that left wheel well ? Could you come out past that transfer case bump... with a longer shaft and bearing or would you hit the frame?


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## Jimdear2 (Oct 12, 2008)

Dave Koller said:


> Curious - how much room have you got from the shaft toward that left wheel well ? Could you come out past that transfer case bump... with a longer shaft and bearing or would you hit the frame?


An expansion on Dave's thought . . . Use a modified inner rezzepa type CV joint in your coupler(the thin ones like used on the old VW rabbits and IRS bugs), allowing you to angle the motor away from the diff., this would probably allow an 11 inch motor. Although the extra length of the CV might push an 11 inch's backside into the fenderwell.


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## jackbauer (Jan 12, 2008)

I was looking at a freelander yesterday which has a very similar awd setup. I'd ditch the whole thing and go direct drive to the rear driveshaft. Mabey a transwarp 11? my 2c.


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## gdirwin (Apr 7, 2009)

Dave/Jim: There is only 20 3/4 " from the transmission mounting surface to the passenger side frame. The Warp 9 is 20.19" (shaft to shaft), minus 1 or 2" where the shaft enters the bell housing, plus the thickness of the mounting plate - basically it should fit but no extra space for CV joints etc...

Kittydog2 - I only need a 1/16 ", so a custom diff cover is an option...


Jack - direct drive - hmmmm, I have never thought about this option before... Will have to see what the clearance is above the steering rack. I think there are 4 diff ratios in '01 RAV4's, depending on 2WD or 4WD, auto or man, the lowest is 3.12:1, the highest is 4.562:1.


I also thought of using a Kostov 9 motor (diameter 8.66") - anyone have any experience with these?


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

I think the direct drive to the rear axle only would be the easiest to achieve but you would need to work out the drive ratio to get a good motor speed. Also you would need to be reversing the motor for reverse gear.

Off set Gears would be a good engineering solution but to get a small offset you would need small gears.

A right angle drive will be interesting if you can find one that is small and light enough and doesn't mess up your gear ratios.

How about twin motors?
Have two parallel 8" motors coupled together at the tailshaft?


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## Jimdear2 (Oct 12, 2008)

gdirwin said:


> Dave/Jim: There is only 20 3/4 " from the transmission mounting surface to the passenger side frame. The Warp 9 is 20.19" (shaft to shaft), minus 1 or 2" where the shaft enters the bell housing, plus the thickness of the mounting plate - basically it should fit but no extra space for CV joints etc...
> 
> Kittydog2 - I only need a 1/16 ", so a custom diff cover is an option...
> 
> ...


I thought length might be a problem. 

If all you need is a 1/16 inch in width, also look in to thinning the motor case in the spot of interferance fit along with a custom diff cover. A little work with a die grinder might make this an easier conversion.

Another thought is convert it back to FWD, that would involve removing the transfer diff. and drive shaft (I would leave the rear axle unless it is IRS and you could pull the rear diff and axles). You replace the transfer case with a cover, extension shaft and bearing, all stock parts.

The Kostov sounds like a nice idea as well.

I'll be interested in the final path.


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## RKM (Jun 9, 2008)

Garth,

The most appropriate response to the intruding housing is DANG. Moving on...

I understand that you have a couple of priorities for this conversion; that it be quick and that it retain the AWD. If this is the case, Woodsmiths suggestion of running twin 8's should let you do this. The motors would be situated side by side or over and under and connected (chain, belt, gear) by the tailshafts. You would need to confirm how much power and torque the motor shaft can transmit of course. Twin motors would not be as space efficient or as economical as a single 9 or even an 11. I suspect you'll have the space.

RE confirming motor OD...I'm 99% sure the OD on my WarP 9 measured 9.25".

Lots of interesting suggestions. Jimdear2's comment re thinning the motor jacket is likely the easiest, aside from using a smaller diameter motor.

Rob


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## Dave Koller (Nov 15, 2008)

Jimdear2 said:


> An expansion on Dave's thought . . . Use a modified inner rezzepa type CV joint in your coupler(the thin ones like used on the old VW rabbits and IRS bugs), allowing you to angle the motor away from the diff., this would probably allow an 11 inch motor. Although the extra length of the CV might push an 11 inch's backside into the fenderwell.


AND that's what came to me this morning about 4 am lol.. A small drive axle and cut off the cv joint or the race to length and use just enough angle to clear it all... Jimdear you are a mind reader! I was laying there (in bed) and my PTO came "pop" into my mind - hmmmm a short double universal joint arrangement like on my haybine at the farm! I CAN TURN THAT BABY SHARP and ---- well theen the CV joint on my Saturn came to mind - then the hydraulic pump to motor idea - then the differential (locked) from --- well I gotta stop there ---- !
Yep IT IS A DIY forum --------


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

RKM said:


> If this is the case, Woodsmiths suggestion of running twin 8's should let you do this. The motors would be situated side by side or over and under and connected (chain, belt, gear) by the tailshafts. You would need to confirm how much power and torque the motor shaft can transmit of course. Twin motors would not be as space efficient or as economical as a single 9 or even an 11. I suspect you'll have the space.


Another way to run twin motors would be to have two 8" or 9" motors face to face (one counter rotating) with their shafts on a single toothed belt pulley driving downwards to a pulley on the adaptor plate.
It places the motors above the transmission but the space left below could be used for batteries or controller.
Have a look at this thread on twin motors.

Another way to do this would be to have a motor in the conventional place but to have a pulley in the adaptor plate coupling to a matching motor above and so the drive load will be on the driving shaft rather then the tail shaft. The smaller motors would be shorter allowing the space to do this.


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## Dave Koller (Nov 15, 2008)

Back at work here - (yes we are open Sundays!) - say you used the CV or similar joint - could you not angle UP as well giving LOTS of room for a single BIG motor?


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

Another thing that may affect how you add a motor that won't otherwise fit is whether or not you are planning on keeping the flywheel and clutch.

If no flywheel/clutch then you can use the space in the bell housing for the gears, pulleys, cv joints or what ever you feel is the best option for you.


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## Dave Koller (Nov 15, 2008)

Woodsmith said:


> Another thing that may affect how you add a motor that won't otherwise fit is whether or not you are planning on keeping the flywheel and clutch.
> 
> If no flywheel/clutch then you can use the space in the bell housing for the gears, pulleys, cv joints or what ever you feel is the best option for you.


Good point Wood - are you planning on clutch?


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## Dave Koller (Nov 15, 2008)

My thought was that you mounted a bearing in the adapter plate to take the side torque off the shaft - come out there and have the CV joint as close to the plate (and bearing) as you can and ANGLE UP and to the front with the motor.

Mounting is not too hard from there. the CV shaft could be machined to fit the spline... Would be an unusual motor mount but maybe not impossible. make a mock up of cardboard and see what ya got .....


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## gdirwin (Apr 7, 2009)

I was planning on keeping the clutch - I like the idea of a mechanical safety/off switch (in addition to an electrical breaker) for DC runaway scenarios, plus easier gear changes...

I gave up on the direct drive idea - would consider this with an AC motor only (higher usable rpm range) - I don't think DC motors like operating at low speeds in the city. It is a 4.562:1 rear diff ratio though (unusually high)... I would loose AWD with this too (there is snow on the ground 5-6 months of the year around here).

I like the twin motor and CV ideas - there is not much room below as there is a frame member (which probably could be moved/lowered). I had the 36x24 area above the motor/transmission pegged for batteries.

I will pull the diff cover plate and see what it looks like - it looks quite thick from the outside, so will see how much grinding I get away with. Also good idea to shave the motor itself (although my warranty would be toasted likely).

On the bright side, sure glad I waited until the motor was pulled before ordering batteries, motor and controller - they are all linked together. Definitely recommended for transverse AWD builds...


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

Mock up two 8" motors using manufacturers specs and see if you can fit them both flat at the bottom of the engine bay.
One would line up with the transmission and the other will be to the front to just clear the crossmember.
Being only 8" will leave you the space above for the battery pack.


I am exerting a vested interest as I have been thinking of this for the MR2. Plenty of space below for a cheap twin motor set up if I can't get a cheap 11".


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## Thaniel (May 25, 2008)

gdirwin said:


> Thanks Dave - I see you have been there - done that. I will plan to keep the ECM and tach as-is - hopefully I can add the stock crank sensor and toothed wheel to the rear shaft, and it will all work...


gdirwin, your new controller (at least zilla) will want to know the RPM of the electric motor. Just like the gas ECU did excpet in the case of zilla it wants a 4 pulls per rev. The zilla can feed tach output. So unless this vehicle has a can bus and it doesn't sound like it does since you talk of OBDII the ECU is just going to get in the way. Zilla controllers also integrate into the check engine light and Battery light. Having 2 controllers (the ICE ECU and new controller) just will be a headache in my opinion.

Oh on your clearance issue with the diff. I'd go with dimple/shave the diff cover and a warp9. The complexity of the dual motors I do not believe worth it. I know you want a quick car but unless you are building a dragster I think the single warp9 will be enough. And yes the drawing on the warp9 states 9.25" for diameter. One thing to consider is how much torque can your clutch even hold. no use hooking up a huge electric motor to a clutch that can only hold 200-300 ft lbs of torque. Besides if you dump to much torque into this car you're likely to start breaking differentials and transmissions.....What's the factory peak torque for the ICE?

Edit: went to measure my warp9 but my calipers only go to 6". Oh and if your vehicle is Can bus then everything I have said is meaning less


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## gdirwin (Apr 7, 2009)

Thanks Thaniel, Dave, Jim, Rob and all - great ideas and advice. It is great to get help on these issues from people who have been through this.

The stock 2.0L engine has 148 HP, 142 ft-lbs at 6000 rpm.

I also think it is better to keep it simple. The diff cover of concern has some thickness which can be shaved - also worst case there is some clearance behind the cover so a custom/thin metal cover could also be whipped together as Plan B. The Warp9 should fit (perhaps with some "persuasion"/grinding). It will not be a rocket, but I am sure I will not be disappointed.

Thaniel - you are bang-on that the Zilla will also need a speed input (for over-speed control) and can drive the tach - I have not considered this yet - it does not make sense to have 2 tach sensors/circuits...

I will add a pulley onto the end shaft (for the A/C) and hopefully can add the tach sensor for the Zilla onto the end too (and use the Zilla output to drive the tach)... If the ABS brakes, A/C, or airbags do not work (hopefully the ECU wires for these signals are only for diagnostics) then I can weld the 36 tooth wheel, stock CPS sensor and re-enable the ECU to work in parallel. I am still waiting for the factory wiring diagram/manual to arrive (so far relying on Haynes manual - not so good) so maybe can learn more shortly.


So, Warp9 it is. Also a Zilla 1K is the most likely contender (although hoping to avoid liquid cooling).

I will post plans for the motor, batteries, controller etc... shortly... Now that a "low" voltage for the Warp9 is enforced, this will also input into the battery decision. 

All other inputs appreciated - thanks all!


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## Thaniel (May 25, 2008)

gdirwin said:


> So, Warp9 it is. Also a Zilla 1K is the most likely contender (although hoping to avoid liquid cooling).
> 
> I will post plans for the motor, batteries, controller etc... shortly... Now that a "low" voltage for the Warp9 is enforced, this will also input into the battery decision.


The question of voltage brings up a question to my mind. Does the battery max voltage HAVE to match the motor max voltage? I believe the zilla (and maybe others) can limit the max current to the motor and looking at the manual maybe even the max voltage? No expert here. Just talking out loud. I'll have to do some research. If that's the case it may change some of my plans on batteries slightly.

I wasn't a big fan of liquid cooling either. However after reading about so many people having controler overheating problems water cooling may work out for the best. Currently I'm looking at using a water cooling system that people use to liquid cool home PC's. People liquid cool their home PC (for high performance) and we want to air cool our computer/controller for our EV.... Just a thought.


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## gdirwin (Apr 7, 2009)

*THE PLAN - Overview*

Now that the ICE is out and I know how big of a motor will fit, this guides everything else...

So, here's "THE PLAN":
- Motor: Netgain Warp 9
- Controller: Zilla Z1K HV
- Batteries: 50 TS200AH LFP batteries
- DC/DC converter: IOTA DLS-90
- Charger: Manzanita PFC20
- Interior Heat: 2x1500W Ceramic heaters
- Power Steering: MR2 electric power steering pump
- Brakes: 12V power brake vacuum booster

More details on each of these (and some factors of each decision) is in separate thread/posts below.


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## gdirwin (Apr 7, 2009)

*Overall Front Layout*

THE PLAN - Overall Front Layout:
--------------------------------
- PS pump in bottom middle (near to the PS rack) attached to the belly pan
- Controller and charger mounted in the very front (where the original radiator and fans are)
- Brake booster at front driver side (far away from the cab)
- A/C pump in original location (passenger front, low) and mounted to motor
- DC/DC converter (not sure yet - hopefully room in bottom passenger side close to the 12V battery)
- Batteries on top of everything else (hopefully room to access the controller and DC/DC).
- Other wiring (relays, etc..) - not sure yet, probably hanging off front
- full belly pan (plastic of some sort?) to keep water out
- air handling/routing (to get air flow across batteries in summer).


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## gdirwin (Apr 7, 2009)

*THE PLAN - Motor*

THE PLAN - Motor:
-----------------
Netgain Warp 9
- this will be tight (9.25" diameter) 
- no room for anything bigger (probably have to shave 1/16" from somewhere
- backup plan is for a Kostov 9 (8.66" diameter)

I will keep the clutch, so a taper-lock bush and hub will have to be machined (not my expertise - I will find a machinist to do this). The inside of the hub also has to be drilled for a end-bushing (for the transmission shaft to ride in).

The "critical distance" (flywheel face to engine-transmission joint) is 1.30".


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## gdirwin (Apr 7, 2009)

*THE PLAN - Controller:*

THE PLAN - Controller:
----------------------
Zilla Z1K HV

I also would consider Soliton1, but Zilla seems to have more software/protection features and has been around longer. 

I am not super keen on liquid cooling, but it seems to be recommended. I haven't thought about the pump/mini-radiator yet, but will look around to see what others are using...

Defintely want over-speed control, so will probably use a sensor on the motor shaft into the Zilla, then use the Zilla to directly feed the tach (bypassing the ECU - thanks Thaniel). A bit of experimenting required here.


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## gdirwin (Apr 7, 2009)

*THE PLAN - Batteries and boxes:*

THE PLAN - Batteries and boxes:
-------------------------------
It turns out I have oodles of room for batteries - the vertical height under the hood is good for the 200Ah batteries (11" high) with room for insulation - I will have to fabricate a new driver side transmission mount (as the stock one sits up very high). 

There is room under the hood, behind the rear axle, and even 2 more small boxes in front of the rear axle where the gas tank used to be (on either side of the rear drive shaft) - I will use only the under-hood and rear boxes.

Front box (above motor): 36"x27" - 30 cells will use up only 28"x21.6"
Back box (behind rear axle): 36"x18" - 20 cells will use up only 28"x14.4"

50*3.2=160V (nominal), 200Ah each = 32kWH (way more range then I need, means low DOD and long life).

- lots of room for ventilation/insulation
- will try and make "insulation inserts" which can be removed in summer time (for airflow for a ventilator/fan).
- will imbed Gro-quick wire into the bottom insulation (for heating when plugged into AC)
- aluminum angle with aluminum enclosures (this way I get to figure out how to weld Alum!)
- batteries are multiples of 5 (the cells come strapped this way - easier)

I will also use 4/0 orange cable (for HV) and black welding cable - these will run from front to back in metal conduit strung under the frame (and grounded to the frame). Near the controller, I also will have some sort of metal-sheath flexible cable (also grounded) to minimize EMI - Rob (RKM) has already dealt with this I believe...


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## gdirwin (Apr 7, 2009)

*The plan - bms*

THE PLAN - BMS
--------------
Not 100% sure yet:
- Elithion distributed BMS (http://liionbms.com/php/liionbms.php)
- Hardy BMS ( http://www.convertthefuture.com/BMS.php )

I wanted a system which adds cell voltage monitoring as well - this will ultimately connect to a CAR-PC which will have all media, GPS/Navigation, engine diagnostics etc... This would avoid yet another set of spaghetti wiring. I do not think the Hardy BMS is isolated, so a wireless USB or some other sort of interface would have to be used...


The BMS should detect high voltage across any cell and signal the charger to slow down, and should detect low voltage and signal the controller to back off while driving (or turn on a light or something). 

Is is true that with some controllers the BMS can dynamically reduce the maximum current? This would be a nice addition as it would basically limit your acceleration when the batteries are run down (ie not an on/off switch limp mode, but progressively more stringent limits).


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## gdirwin (Apr 7, 2009)

*THE PLAN - Interior Heat and A/C:*

THE PLAN - Interior Heat and A/C:
---------------------------------
2x1500 W ceramic heater elements in the heater core - will connect to DC pack voltage
- each element has 2 or 3 stages of elements
- individual wires from each element will be brought through the firewall
- temperature dial on the dash will be a rotary switch to choose the required # of elements
- use DC SSR (solid state relays - Mosfet type) to switch each stage based on pack DC volts
- air flow flapper (normally attached to the temperature dial) will be wide open all the time
- stock fan switch used as-is
- stock A/C compressor driven from front pulley on the dual shaft motor
- A/C controls used as-is

SSR (solid state relays) should last longer then relays (and not be affected by bumps etc...) but can get hotter (so small heat sinks are required) - the Mosfet ones have lower heat loss - for example, see:
http://www.crydom.com/en/Products/Catalog/AdvancedWebPage.aspx?CategoryText1=Panel%20Mount&CategoryText2=DC%20Output&CategoryText3=1-DC%20Series%20MOSFET%20output%20-%20Ratings%20from%207A%20to%20100A%20and%20100%20to%20500%20VDC&SBCatPage=

The SSR relays have a low on voltage (3.5V I think) - I will take the DC outputs from the fan switch (through diodes so there is 1 signal which will be high whenever the fan is on at least 1 position) - this will be the input to the rotary switch.

I also will have an AC interlock, so when the car is plugged in, a few of the heating elements can be turned on with a timer (say 1 hour before I get in the car in the morning) - this means you never have to scrape the windshield (plus I am a suck). A bit in-efficient (AC power, to DC from the charger into the pack volts, then re-converted to 12V through the DC-DC) but should be okay as it uses cheap AC power (not valuable DC power).

I am a little worried about using 50*3.2=160VDC (nominal) or 50*3.8=190VDC (max) DC voltage across a heating element which is expecting 120V rms. It is the rms voltage which should be used for heating calculations (not the peak of the sine wave), so 190V is a big increase. Anyone else used 190V max across a 120VAC ceramic heating element...


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## gdirwin (Apr 7, 2009)

*THE PLAN - DC/DC Converter:*

THE PLAN - DC/DC Converter:
---------------------------
IOTA DLS-90
90 amps sound huge, but remember this is Winnipeg (and I am a suck) - imagine it is -40 deg , 2 seat heaters are on full, the heater fan is cranked, the headlights are on, the rear window defrost is on, you are parallel parking using P/S pump and vacuum brake booster etc... These are all 12V loads, so a big converter is warranted. I have not measured the load in the stock vehicle. I also will keep the stock battery (Which is nicely situated out of the way on far passenger side, high near the firewall).


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## gdirwin (Apr 7, 2009)

*THE PLAN - Charger:*

THE PLAN - Charger:
-------------------
Manzanita PFC20 or PFC30
- defintely want 120 or 240V
- AC plug where the fuel filler is
- 2 cables will plug in (120 or 240V)

I also may consider Rob's (RKM) idea of a retractable cord reel with 120 or 240V fittings on the end - see http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showpost.php?p=139090&postcount=86

I am a bit concerned about the PFC charger and its connection to the battery negative connection - it is not isolated, so apparently if you touch a batttery connection you can get a bit of an AC shock...

The BMS should sense whenever any cell reaches its upper charging threshold, then signal the charger to slow down and charge slowly (ie balance mode).


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## gdirwin (Apr 7, 2009)

*THE PLAN - Power Steering:*

THE PLAN - Power Steering:
--------------------------
I found an electric power steering pump from a 2005 MR2 Spyder (this has a reservoir and controller built in). I will connect the VSS speed sensor signal to save power at high speeds.


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## gdirwin (Apr 7, 2009)

*THE PLAN - Power Brake Vacuum Booster:*

THE PLAN - Power Brake Vacuum Booster:
--------------------------------------
- Quiet unit with oil-filled muffler (sold by EVSource or EVComponents)
- Brian (rctous)'s unit with pump inside the reservoir:
http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showthread.php/complete-vacumm-brake-system-199-00-31175.html


I also saw a post from Thaniel (see http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showpost.php?p=148317&postcount=112 ) where he used a hydraulic vacuum booster - Vacuum pumps seem to be the noisiest things on the car, so this is a great alternative. I did not want to mess with this as I was not sure how it would integrate with my ABS brakes - looks like a good solution though...


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## gdirwin (Apr 7, 2009)

*Re: THE PLAN - Interior Heat and A/C:*

Here's the interior ceramic heater wiring plan:










Note each SSR relay is about $20-25, so you could save some $$$ by grouping the elements together (say 4 stages instead of 8) - make sure to use DC SSR relays with the correct voltage and current capability... Also SSR relays generate heat, so should be used with heatsinks (Mosfet SSR relays generate less heat but cost a bit more).

Be sure to use a relay with a low turn on voltage (3V - determined by the lowest fan voltage)... 

You could also generate the trigger signal (to allow heat only when the fan is on) by using diodes from all fan switch outputs, but be careful that the input trigger signal should be 12V (some fan wires may have only 3V) or else the diode voltage drop will be too high and you cannot turn on the heating elements (this is why the relay out front was used). I think using the motor wire directly is better/safer - if a fan motor fuse blew or the OEM fan controller conked out, this would also inhibit the heater operation (you do not want the ceramic heater to be cooking away without a fan on). 

The fuse ratings should be bigger than the sum of all 8 SSR relay input current ratings (maybe 5 mA each?).


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## RKM (Jun 9, 2008)

Garth,

So, I know that you are a small business owner, a family man and that you were up at 3:30 am posting your schematics for your heater control (very impressive). You've got it bad Garth! Forget H1N1, the EV bug has already claimed you.

Lots of updates, looks like most of the ducks are in a neat row. I'll make a few comments;

I'm pleased with Brian's vacuum kit, though I don't know how it would compare with the alternative you list. I chose Brian's for its compact size (like the pump inside the reservoir, till it fails of course), to support a fellow EVer and for its economical price. The kit offered by EVcomponents looks excellent and was the other system I considered. I like the sound (no pun) of the oil muffler. This kit was over twice the price.

The DC-DC is a monster, which is good. Mine is about 2/3rds that size, which I think will be more than adequate given the buffer of the 12V battery. I haven't added up the sum of the 12V loads, I expect you will though. The largest single load will likely be the PS pump and that will only be a very brief load. Better too large than too small.

I thought you'd have lots of room for cells! I'm wishing I'd had room for more thorough insulation and a heating system (the Miata is that tight). Some recent posts are suggesting the performance of LiFePO4 in cold weather is not as good as I had thought. If you can accomodate it insulate and heat the boxes. Good for you to opt for Al. That was my intention, then I changed my mind for economics and convenience. I don't regret the decision. I'd estimate the steel boxes are only about 30-40 pounds heavier than Al would have been. I should be able to make up for that differential personally!

Long live the Zilla. Green is beautiful. I agree that motor over speed protection is very important. Bryan (Beltronix) did a great job with his option. It also provides a tach signal. Works great, saves a motor.

The WarP 9 shaft is machined for a pilot bushing. I don't know if your tranny shaft and motor shaft will reach each other or not. You may just need a sintered bronze bushing to get the correct match for OD/ID.

Very well thought out conversion!

Rob


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## gdirwin (Apr 7, 2009)

RKM said:


> the EV bug has already claimed you.
> 
> Rob


Thanks for all your help Rob - you are right (woke up last night thinking about this, and had to do an edit) - slept better after that though...

Everyone keep the comments coming! A design review is most-valuable at this stage (ie just before I write the cheque, rather than after)...


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## dragster (Sep 3, 2008)

Hi
The brake vacuum pump that is noisy is fixed by wrapping it in foam. You will need more vacuum them the stock chamber gives, make a chamber using 3 inch pvc pipe and pvc cap ends then drill and tap were you would like the fitting to come out. The pipe should be about 2 feet long. As for the power steering pump it uses a lot of amps you may think about going with an AC drive and use your stock power steering pump from your car and the stock AC unit. This is what you will need AC 2 HP 3PH 240 volt 3400 RPM Balder motor about $250.00 with a Yaskawa AC controller about $250.00 this will change your DC to 3Ph 240 volts AC and the motor will use only 2.5 AMPS.
You can see a pictures of ours on our site http://www.discbrakesrus.com/make/fordtruck/from%20gas%20to%20electric.htm


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## gdirwin (Apr 7, 2009)

Thanks Dragster:

For equal power required by the P/S rack, it is a question of losses... 

Comparing the 2 systems:
a) DC/DC converter, electric 12V pump
b) Inverter, AC motor, mechanical pump

If you add a separate inverter and AC motor to drive the stock P/S pump, there are more systems to deal with, and I doubt it would be more efficient overall compared to a direct 12V electric pump.

Yes, option a) will have a larger demand from the 12V system, but this is averaged by the battery - in theory if you sat there and worked the steering back and forth for hours, your DC/DC converter may not be able to keep up with the DC load - not likely however.


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## Dave Koller (Nov 15, 2008)

what did you use to draw the heater schematic? Nice !


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## dragster (Sep 3, 2008)

Hi
then how are you going to run the AC unit


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## gdirwin (Apr 7, 2009)

Hi Dave:
I used a power system simulation package called PSCAD (I was one of the original developers and use it frequently) - it is a graphical simulation environment that does power electronic simulation (HVDC, PWM, VSCs etc...). There is a free demo version from http://www.pscad.com. 

Dragster - I will use the stock A/C pump, driven off a pulley from the passenger side motor shaft (Warp 9 dual shaft motor). 

It is also possible to use the stock P/S pump off the same pulley... This link ( http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showthread.php/power-steering-argh-37556.html) shows some favourable experience with this... I thought that P/S was most important when you are parallel parking however (not when you are moving) so decided to get the MR2 electric P/S pump. If you could get a controller that had a idle speed (perhaps for an automatic transmission) then the stock P/S pump on a pulley would be ideal...


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## dragster (Sep 3, 2008)

Hi
All we did was put a micro switch with a cam on the throttle cost about $2.00 and some machine work. You will find what works on a light vehicle & a heavy vehicle are two different things. Good luck


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## gdirwin (Apr 7, 2009)

Dragster - Thanks for your input... I read your build thread and am most impressed - I had a 1996 Ford "Exploder" and am a long-time Ford fan (also have a 75 F250 Hi-boy). I craved the AC drive you used, but no room in my build though.



dragster said:


> Hi
> All we did was put a micro switch with a cam on the throttle cost about $2.00 and some machine work. You will find what works on a light vehicle & a heavy vehicle are two different things. Good luck



Can you expand on what you mean by this?


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## dragster (Sep 3, 2008)

Hi
We have the throttle set so it hits the micro switch when you push 1/2 way down on the peddle and this is fully adjustable. The switch then turns off a solenoid that is wired to the power steering motor. Our power steering module is mounted right behind the AC radiator and way down low with the battery's over the unit. A light weight honda with rack and pinion steering dose not need very much power to steer it but an SUV needs a lot to steer it that is way the electric power steering is only on the small cars. It may work give it a try but you still will not have AC when you are stop at a light.


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## gdirwin (Apr 7, 2009)

*Motor Adaptor*

After much measurements, thinking, e-mailing etc... I have a plan for the motor adapter (Rob/RKM has been patient and most helpful in this). Recall I will keep the clutch/flywheel, so a well designed and well balanced coupler is essential.

Here are some plans (made with Google SketchUp 7 - free!):

3D Top View:









Front View:









Here is the Browning split taper P1 bush (rough specs here http://www.drillspot.com/products/51576/Browning_P1X1_1_8_Split_Taper_Bushing ):










I will be very space limited with a Warp 9 motor in this transverse setup - there is only 20 3/4 " from the transmission face to the passenger side frame (in fact I may find I have to cut/shorten the tail shaft to make it fit - using an Impulse 9 is also an option, but less performance so trying this first). 

This coupling design uses a reverse mounted Browning bush - everything can be tightened/loosened from the front, which means the coupler can be pushed as far as possible onto the shaft (which saves room). The standard taperlock design cannot be used here - it would require grub screws to be put in from the motor side, and if reversed (ie flange side out) then the weird pilot bushing cannot be added.

I choose the Browning P1 bushing, as it is the smallest bushing which offers keyways on both the inside (between the shaft and the bush) and the outside (between the bush and the adapter). The shorter H bushing would save more room, but no outer keyway is available (so there would be more chance of it slipping off - I don't plan to take this off again).

To suck in the bush into the adapter, 3 countersunk bolts are used (another advantage of the P1 size - smaller sizes only have 2 bolts and may result in more runout when tightened). To remove it, 2 (out of 8) holes for bolting the flywheel will be tapped all the way through, so I can insert long bolts and push off the bush.

After designing this (of course), I noticed something similar (without the fancy pilot requirement) at:
http://www.brownout.com/?cat=4

All suggestions welcome! Off to the machinist soon...


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## RKM (Jun 9, 2008)

Garth,

I think you've done a great job at designing an efficient, effective coupler for a challenging application. I say this knowing that the effort was 99.9% your's!

The sketch is impressive also. I use a different CAD program but may download SketchUp 7 and give it a try. It will be a real bonus if the software is compatible with the programming for the CNC equipment at the machine shop. Let us know about that!

I chose a similar bushing design, with inner and outer keys to have a mechanical connection between the motor shaft/bushing and bushing/hub. We all know there is a lot of torque through this connection.

Rob


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## gdirwin (Apr 7, 2009)

Made a bit of progress yesterday - rebuilt the driver side transmission mount (it was sticking up about 2" and would interfere with the battery rack) - good welding practice...

Also fixed some semi-rusty floorpans (previous owner did not use floor mats - the salt/water worked through the carpet and produce a mess of surface rust). It all cleaned up nice with a bit of wiring brushing and POR-15 paint.

Took my first EV-induced trip to the hospital though - got something in my eye while grinding (yes I wore goggles, but not good enough ones apparently) - no biggie, in/out - still taking drops though...

Waiting for a final quote for a full package of EV stuff (motor, controller, batteries, BMS, DC/DC, charger, contactors etc...) - package pricing saves a bit of $$$. I am getting a big (90 amp) DC/DC, which is taking some time to find/price. If I get in on the next TS group buy, I should have the batteries in January.


Has anyone used this speed sensor with a Zilla:









http://rechargecar.com/product/warptm-speed-sensor


I like the low-profile mount, and space is at a premium for me (1/2" counts!) - not much room to attach the Zilla speed sensor on the very end of the tailshaft...


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## Thaniel (May 25, 2008)

With space being at a premium have you considered integrating the tach sensor into your flywheel adapter? I plan on doing this on mine but haven't done it yet. I'm thinking of 4 radial holes in the adapter and put in bolts to be the triger for the hall effect sensor. I think it should work.


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## gdirwin (Apr 7, 2009)

*Stuff*

Ordered a bunch of stuff last week - one big package:
- 50 TS 200AH batteries
- Warp 9 motor
- Zilla Z1kHV controller
- Elithion BMS with external HV front end
- Brake vacuum pump with oil filled muffler
- IOTA DLS-90 Amp DC/DC converter
- Orange 4/0 and 2.0 cable

Ouch - big bucks (even with a package discount) but at least the big ticket stuff is done...

Motor and some in-stock stuff should arrive shortly, other stuff at a later date, batteries in Feb...


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## gdirwin (Apr 7, 2009)

*Motor Shaft Coupler*

Got the motor shaft coupler back from the machinist - looks good!

The design uses a Browning P1 bushing with new tapped holes drilled for reverse mounting (this allows the bushing to be added/removed from the front/transmission side, so the coupler can be pushed as far as possible towards the motor - this is important for transverse motor mounts which are often length limited). The P1 bushing is the smallest which has keyways on both sides (ie between the bushing and the motor shaft and between the machined coupler and the bushing). There are 8 tapped holes (metric) to mount the flywheel to the coupler. 2 of these holes are drilled and tapped all the way through, so long bolts can be inserted to push the taper bush off of the coupler. There are also 4 holes drill through the full length of the coupler (offset from the flywheel holes) so bolts can be inserted to draw the bush onto the coupler - these holes are counter-bored so the mounting bolts do not interfere with the flywheel mounting face - these 4 holes align with newly drilled and tapped holes in the bush.

Here are pics of the steel machined coupler:









Here are the CAD drawings:








(note the image above shows only 3 holes to pull the bushing on, but the final design used 4 bolts).

Azdeltawye made a very similar coupler - see http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showthread.php?t=38895&highlight=browning . His thread includes an excellent writeup...


It has been machined at one go on a lathe, so should have little run-out. When I get the motor, I will mount it, connect to 12V and measure run-out. Worst case a bit more balancing may be needed...

I also lightened the flywheel (slightly) by removing some material from the back (and of course removing the ring gear) - I looked for aluminum flywheels (with steel inserts where the clutch plate interfaces) but nothing was available for this year of RAV4. I did not want to get too aggressive with the lightening, but lighter is better as all this weight sits on the machine bearings...


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## gdirwin (Apr 7, 2009)

*Aluminum Adapter Plate*

Made one half of the motor adapter plate - I used 3/4" aluminum plate (about 16" diameter) - scrap from a local supplier. I cut it using a jigsaw - use a high speed and lots of cutting oil. Believe it or not the whole thing used only 1 blade (a progressive Bosch blade 17-24 tpi) and it was still good as new - took about 40 minutes.

The top holes in the transmission use 1/2" bolts and were marked using a transfer punch. The bottom holes are tapped into the transmission - I filed down one bolt to a point, inserted it into each hole, and gave the plate a tap to mark the center of each bolt hole.

Finally, to mark the center of the transmission shaft, I used a trick I found on this site... I attached a pencil to the outside of the spline on the transmission shaft using elastic bands, then turned the transmission shaft - this leaves a perfect circle, the center of which is the center of the transmission shaft. The trick is to ensure there is some outwards pressure (ie an elastic pulling forward) so the pencil will leave a mark on the plate.

I then drilled a 1 1/8" hole (using a metal hole saw on the drill press) to fit the Warp 9 shaft - when the motor arrives, I will fit it into the hole, then mark the motor mounting bolts.. 

Here is the finished product:










I still have to cut one more piece of aluminum plate to match the "critical distance" of the flywheel face to transmission face (with the same motor mounting bolt pattern)... Both plates will have to be the center cut out (again using a jigsaw) for a 4" diam hole (so the motor adapter can fit through).


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## RKM (Jun 9, 2008)

Garth,

Coming together nicely! The coupler looks great, congrats on an effective, efficient design. 

Just for my own information... what scrap supplier had 3/4 Al plate in Winnipeg? I couldn't find any months ago when I was looking.

Your welcome to the use of my 4" hole saw rather than using the jigsaw for the motor/coupler pilot hole. You could use my post drill as well if you'd like. My shop is your shop!

Good to see progress.

Rob


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## gdirwin (Apr 7, 2009)

Thanks Rob - I will see how it goes and let you know if I need help...

Also sold the old RAV4 motor and a few other parts - $850... It helps!


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## gdirwin (Apr 7, 2009)

Away for the holidays down South (was -37C when I arrived home on New Years!), but finally back at it...

A bunch of stuff arrived:
- Warp 9 motor
- Hepa pedal
- 4/0 and 2/0 orange flexible cable
- speed sensor

I finally mounted the machined adaptor onto the motor shaft, mounted the flywheel etc... and energized the motor with 12V... Not sure how smooth is required - I can see a tiny amount of wobble. I tried all 8 positions of the flywheel (the 8 mounting bolts are symmetric), and slowly tightened (and torqued) the 4 taper bush mounting bolts. Seems the adapter is smooth, but the flywheel (which was also thinned out a bit) is where the wobble is... The taper lock bush gets completely sucked into the adapter (generally not good) but this occurs just as the recommended torque (192 in-lbs) is reached, so probably is okay.

I am not sure if I am being picky or not, but I will take the adapter and flywheel back to machinist to see if they can balance it a bit better (on a stub shaft, not on the motor). Easy to do now, much more work later.

Also centered the aluminum trans mounting plate onto the motor, and drilled 4 mounting holes.

Also decided to mount the MR2 electric power steering pump up high beside the original battery - basically I cut out a circle from the battery bottom metal mount bracket so the MR2 pump slides into it. I also cut a thick piece of rubber the same shape (to minimize noise/vibrations). I will use a much smaller AGM battery (from a motorcycle etc...). This makes the power steering fluid reservoir very accessible (and higher is better for bleeding)...

Pics later...

Next Up:
- cut out 6.5" hole from centre of aluminum mounting plate (yeehaw - more jigsaw work)
- re-assemble, use "critical distance" from tran mounting surface to flywheel clutch surface to determine final thickness of another circular mounting plate
- cut out a 9.25" circle from aluminum plate (of the correct thickness as determined above)
- cut another 6.5" hole in this and transfer 4 motor mount bolts to the circular spacer
- mount the motor in the car (and see how much space there is against the passenger side frame rail - I am a bit worried)
- fabricate a passenger side motor mount so support the Warp 9 and a A/C pump driven from the tail shaft)
- wheel spin test

Also I still have to decide how to mount the speed sensor...

No shortage of things to do now! Trying to keep working in the basement though (darn cold out still).


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## jackbauer (Jan 12, 2008)

Just one consideration for your mr2 pump is that it will draw upwards of 40amps under heavy steering loads say when parking. Need to size your 12v battery accordingly.


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## gdirwin (Apr 7, 2009)

jackbauer said:


> Just one consideration for your mr2 pump is that it will draw upwards of 40amps under heavy steering loads say when parking. Need to size your 12v battery accordingly.


For 12V DC loads I also have heaters in the front seats (up to 10A each), the brake vacuum pump, plus headlights, fan and other standard car loads...

I have an IOTA DLS-90 (90 amp) DC/DC converter, so hopefully will be okay.

Thanks for the reminder though - always good to do the math. I will measure the full 12V draw a little later down the road...


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## gdirwin (Apr 7, 2009)

*The Wheels Turn!*

Finally got the motor in! Definitely a tight fit though... The 4 wheels turn nice and smooth with a 12V battery, no vibrations at all... Clutch is nice and smooth too, and pedal height is good.

I used a dial indicator to very carefully tighten the taper lock bushing onto the Warp 9 shaft - very small changes can affect the runout - I got it much less than 1/2 thou on the adapter. After the flywheel is added, it was about 2 thou (Toyota specs call for 4 thou). The most variation was up/down 4 times in a revolution, which means it is the smoothness of the flywheel face (and not uneven adapter mounting) - I will probably get the flywheel face ground to be even better. I have gone this far (dynamic balancing etc...) so may as well go all the way.

The only bad news is that there is not enough clearance between the motor and the front differential cover (transverse mounted engine in an AWD) - I will have to grind a bit of the cover, as well as grind into the side of the motor housing to make it fit - it is very thick so should not compromise things in any way (except my warranty).

I am currently working on the passenger side motor mount and bracket for the A/C compressor pump (running off the tailshaft).

Pics to follow...


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## gdirwin (Apr 7, 2009)

Motor Installed (missing passenger side mount still):









Very little clearance from front differential to motor (even with the cover off!):


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## RKM (Jun 9, 2008)

Garth,

You weren't kidding when you said it is a tight fit!! Looks like 0.010"! How far does the cover extend beyond the gear? I guess you'll make it fit.

Do you plan to use flat washers, lockwashers and/or self locking nuts on the adapter plate for the final installation? As you know aluminum is much softer than steel, would be a good idea to have a flat washer beneath the nut.

I think I recognize the hydraulic hose holder from Princess Auto! Where would we be without PA?!

Great to see progress.

Rob


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## Dave Koller (Nov 15, 2008)

Garth

Can you even get the cover on with that tight space?

Two half's and a "H" gasket?? 

Looks nice in there!


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## gdirwin (Apr 7, 2009)

I was waiting for the washer question - especially since one of the bolt heads on the top is askew and I need to cut a wedge to have it tighten flat... And Rob you are right - I am a frequent Princess Auto customer... Lots of stuff (sometimes bizarre stuff) sitting on shelves that you just can't find anywhere else, and they are open late...

I checked the thickness of the cover - the gears just barely clear the inside of the cover, so no wasted space there. I think I will try and thin it down to about 1/8. I also will grind into the casing about 1/8 to 1/4" - it looked quite thick so a small regional thinning shouldn't cause too much grief. I am not sure how much clearance will be required to get the motor in - it will not "slide straight in" anymore, so a lot of playing to get the transmission spline into the clutch disc. It definitely was closer than I hoped for...

My initial hopes for a Warp11HV were totally out to lunch! This is as big a motor as anyone could possibly fit...


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## Harold in CR (Sep 8, 2008)

What does that bevel gear actually run against. Is a shiftable gear, as in Tranny, or just a stationary gear (Non Shifting) that mates to the drive shaft ???

I would take a serious look at it, and, maybe take 1/8" or so, off the tips of the teeth. I can't imagine that little bit hurting or weakening the gear. ???


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## gdirwin (Apr 7, 2009)

Thanks Harold - also a good idea - I will see what the differential looks like inside, although I admit I am reluctant to do much here as it requires numerous SSTs (special tools) etc... if it needs to be removed and is beyond my experience level...


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## EV-propulsion.com (Jun 1, 2009)

It looks like there is a support near the P/S cv joint that mounted to the ICE. Does this look like it will need to be supported to the motor, via a band type bracket or....
This might be necessary as it supports the P/S of the differential, although the housing looks pretty beefy...going by the picture it is hard to tell for sure
Mike
www.EV-propulsion.com


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## Jesse67 (May 12, 2009)

Looks great! can't wait to start my conversion. Depending on how many kilometers it has you may be able to see shiney wear spots on the ring gear teeth showing exactly where the pinion teeth contact it. This would show you how much you could take off, although you would still need to make a custom cover which could be tricky and the gear may be to hard to machine easily. As far as grinding down the motor, mark out the area that need to be taken down and take it to a machine shop. They can face mill it off to an exact depth with no worries of going through, setup is very easy and the whole thing should take less than a half hour so not too expensive. I've done similar machining operations in 10 min or so. Since its just a clearance cut the side to side measurment isn't critical, the only thing would be indexing it so the machined face is is aligned tangent to the diff cover. The finished product will then be worthy of the rest of your work, which looks great and you'll probably feel better not cutting into your new motor with a grinder! 

Good Luck

Jesse


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## gdirwin (Apr 7, 2009)

EV-propulsion.com said:


> It looks like there is a support near the P/S cv joint that mounted to the ICE. Does this look like it will need to be supported to the motor, via a band type bracket or....
> This might be necessary as it supports the P/S of the differential, although the housing looks pretty beefy...going by the picture it is hard to tell for sure
> Mike
> www.EV-propulsion.com


Hi Mike:

The bracket is a left-over from the ICE setup... I will keep this bracket and support the tail-end of the Warp motor - I am making a 1/4" steel face-plate that will mount to the 4 bolts on the face of the tail-end of the motor. This will be welded at 90 deg to a plate (with gussets), which will bolt onto the bracket you mentioned. The other end of the face-plate (front of the car) will be used to mount the stock A/C compressor (which will have a pully driven off the tail-shaft) - the compressor will mount on a pivotable bracket (so I can mount the belt and tighten it).

The entire tail end of the motor (and the above brackets etc...) will be connected to a rubber donut mount (similar to the driver side) and will support the tail end of the motor from the frame... The entire thing is kept low so that the battery rack will sit on the frame and I will not lose head-space (batteries are tall!).

The P/S hose is mounted to the frame, but there is a flexible hose before it connects to the drive shaft etc... which will allow the entire motor/transmission/transfercase/CV joints to move wrt to the frame. There is a hose clamp missing on the P/S hose still (have to find one at a wrecker) where the hose runs past the threaded bolt (there is one on the right side of the steering rack, but not on the left). This should keep the P/S hose flexible but not rubbing on anything... Pics after "EV Saturday" as it is known around our place (the only day I can really work on stuff)...

I am amazed at what people can pick up from a photo - I am impressed by the contributions and please keep them coming...


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## gdirwin (Apr 7, 2009)

Jesse67 said:


> ... As far as grinding down the motor, mark out the area that need to be taken down and take it to a machine shop. They can face mill it off to an exact depth with no worries of going through, setup is very easy and the whole thing should take less than a half hour so not too expensive...
> Jesse


You are right, but if I use an angle grinder (followed by some red paint) I can get it done ASAP and move on... It is something that will not be visible, so I will probably decide to avoid the machine shop... There is quite a bit of thickness to work with, so I should not go through anywhere (famous last words).


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## azdeltawye (Dec 30, 2008)

gdirwin said:


> You are right, but if I use an angle grinder (followed by some red paint) I can get it done ASAP and move on... It is something that will not be visible, so I will probably decide to avoid the machine shop... There is quite a bit of thickness to work with, so I should not go through anywhere (famous last words).


I had to remove about 1/4" of material from my Kostov 11" to clear the CV joint flange. It took about 10 minutes with a 5" angle grinder. I repainted the area and was done with it... 
You can see the paint I used had a higher gloss than the factory coating


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## Jesse67 (May 12, 2009)

Well I guess that doesn't look so bad, might as well give it a go. Although I must say that 11" motor looks huge! I want one...


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## gdirwin (Apr 7, 2009)

I wish I could fit an 11" as well!

Tom - that looks like a FWD setup (not AWD) so perhaps this gives you a bit more room... You defintely squeezed everything you could out of it though!


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## gdirwin (Apr 7, 2009)

Some more work done lately:

I fabricated a donut-style passenger side motor mount so it bolts onto the side of the frame (not onto the top) - this required opening the outside of the frame, welding in a steel support plate (with nuts welded to it) etc... The idea is to mount to the side of the frame and keep everything below the frame rails (leaving room for a battery rack to be well supported. This is more work then it sounds like - I had to mount a plate onto the back of the motor face, and also fabricate an adjustable bracket to mount the A/C compressor (so the belt can be adjusted).

I also jerry-rigged a speed sensor as a test - there will be 2 speed sensors used:
- "Warp speed sensor" which mounts close to the motor on the tail end - this will give 4 pulses to the Zilla.
- OEM hall-effect sensor fed from a 36 toothed wheel (with 2 teeth removed) - this attempts to duplicate the OEM crankshaft sensor plate. I tested a jerry-rigged version of this and the car's speedo and tachometer worked (at least at low currents).

I will mount the toothed wheel on the front side of the motor - I will open up the centre of the toothed wheel, and then weld it flush to the taper lock bushing - this way it does not take up any space. The OEM hall effect sensor will be mounted directly into the aluminum spacers that are part of the motor-transmission mounting plates - I will drill a hole (about 5/8") parallel between the plates, slide the sensor to the desired depth, and then figure out some secure way to keep it there... 

The aluminum is good (instead of steel) as it will not mess up the hall effect sensor. Although I have spin-tested everything in the car using a 12V battery (my lithium cells have not arrived yet) I am worried that the high magnetic field near the front of the motor (at 1000 amps for example) may interfere with the hall effect sensor at high rpms - will have to wait and see if this works.

I think 2 sensors are warranted here - the stock tach gets a signal from the cars ECU computer (which takes input from the hall effect sensor) and is probably not the same format of signal as what the Zilla can generate... The tach signal from the ECM is also used in other places in the car (such as the A/C amplifier etc...), so I plan to keep the OEM stuff running as-is.

I also ordered my gauges from Westach - 100-200VDC, 0-1000Amps, and a 12V gauge - all analog, white background, and backlit. I plan to have 2 current shunts, and a switch to allow the gauge to show battery amps or motor amps.

Pics to follow once I put many coats of POR-15 on everything to hide my bumpy welds (getting better with the MIG though).


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## Thaniel (May 25, 2008)

gdirwin said:


> allow the gauge to show battery amps or motor amps.
> .


I had struggled with the guages question for awhlie. Found that the output from the zilla seems to be able to supply this info. Fellow EV'er has written a nice interface.
http://www.casadelgato.com/ZillaConfig.html

I've tried it and it's really cool. Seems to me figure a way to permanatly mount a PC into the car and it may take care of most of the gauges.


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## gdirwin (Apr 7, 2009)

Here is a link to my wiring diagram (near final):
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/29/All_Wiring_V8_Main.pdf

As you can see, I bailed on trying to get the ceramic heaters to work both from AC and DC power – I will have a separate 120VAC power interior heater (simpler is better). I also bailed on having 1 AC plug-in point – now there is a 120V/15A plug for the interior heater and battery heaters (only needed in winter) and a second plug (where the old gas filler is) which can be 120 or 240V. 



I also am talking with Rich at Manzanita who is telling me how to add a switch on the outside (near where I plug in) which switches from a default 15A current level for 120V (set internally in the charger) vs the external dial setting (40A for 240V). 
I also changed and moved the charger to the inside back – this way I can see the digital meter showing the charging current (to help set the current dial to avoid blowing breakers).

My batteries arrive today - hopefully all is well! Will post pics later...


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## gdirwin (Apr 7, 2009)

Thought I would post my first experiences using the Elithion BMS and Zilla together.

I wanted a fault condition from either the Zilla or the Elithion to stop the car. I did this with 2 contactors (+ve and -ve).

My HV accessories (DC/DC converter, gauges etc...) are connected after the -ve contactor (ie the -ve contactor must be on before anything works) but before the +ve contactor (the only thing after the +ve contactor is the Zilla).

The -ve contactor is controlled by the V+ and FLT signals from the BMS (V+ is 12V whenever you are charging or when you are driving - ie source or load). The FLT signal had to have its logic inverted - it is now ground under normal conditions, and removes the ground under fault conditions.

The +ve contactor is controlled directly by the Zilla (and the Zilla is the only thing downstream - for pre-charge reasons). The LLIM signal from the BMS (also with inverted logic) is the ground connection to the +ve contactor - If a cell voltage gets below its critical level, it will remove the ground.

The only unresolved BMS problem now is that when you invert the logic for FLT, LLIM and HLIM, the status lights on the BMS controller are always on under normal conditions, and then when there is a fault, the controller lights go out - a definite bug I think. I am waiting to hear from Davide via their forum.

I just connected my Zilla and Elithion system together this weekend, and am working out the bugs. Now I start the car, drive about 10 seconds, and then I get a communication error from the BMS - this opens the -ve contactor (good) but the Zilla outputs an 1133 error (also a communication error) but I think this is a "red herring".

I good some good suggestions from Thaniel in another post - I will put solid grounds on all of the contactor relays (thus bypassing the BMS) and check out the Zilla first.

I think my BMS com issues are related to noise - I have metal conduit used everywhere and use shielded cable for all BMS signals , but have one area where I got a bit sloppy with a splice - I will fix this on Saturday and re-test - hopefully it will work!

I also will hook up some 12V status lights onto the auxillary contacts on my EV200 (this is an option - you can buy them with aux contacts) - this way I can see which contact opens first...


My BMS wiring is a bit unusual (ie not using the BMS K1,K2,K3 contactor outputs). There does not seem a good way for the Zilla to connect to the BMS interlock feature directly. The way it currently is wired, a Zilla error will open the +ve contactor, and a BMS FLT/error will open the -ve contactor - seems workable. It would be preferable for any error to open both contactors though...

There seems to be many ways to hook everything up, so this may all change! 

All comments/help appreciated!

Garth


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## dragster (Sep 3, 2008)

Hi
Your BMS system is very Hi Tech and I compliment you on it but there are simpler ways. To start with charge all batteries to the same Voltage. When you charge the system :note the time (example) 220 volt charge for two hours gives a full charge) if after two hours your charger has not triped off then you have a bad cell. Feel the batteries with your hand on the side or on the bottom the one that is the warmist will have a bad cell. On an over night charge set your charger to the low setting in this way you will not hurt any batteries if you have a bad one and it keeps on charging. If the charger has not triped off in the morning then you have a bad batterie. Any time you have a complicated system you have that many more things to go wrong. As an engineer told me once. Engineer have a saying (KISS IT) with means Keep it simple stupid.


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## gdirwin (Apr 7, 2009)

Thanks Dragster - in addition to KISS, I also like to keep it safe (and protect my investement in batteries). 

It is a personal decision - go simple and just do initial balancing, or to make things more complex and have active monitoring. I have decided to spend bucks on a BMS which continually monitors each cell, and will take action if any cell gets too high or too low. You are correct that I will probably have more failures this way, but I will get immediate notification that something is amuck and then fix it. No chance of a problem sitting undetected and possibly ruining a cell.

Perhaps someone with many years of hands-on experience in using these cells may save the cost and complexity of a full-blown BMS - I do not have this experience yet. I certainly hope my cells all stay balanced and I do not have any high or low excursions - if so I will be most happy!

I can imagine a day (probably in the near future!) where I am stuck somewhere with a BMS error that will not let the car drive - I will make the contactor relay ground connections accessible so they can be easily connected directly to ground (thus removing the BMS from the loop) so I can get home. Time will tell...


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## dragster (Sep 3, 2008)

Hi
I like your idea on the disconnect also you may think about a timer shut off for the power to the charger. If your not there when the batteries should be fully charged then the timer will shut off the charger so as to protect the batteries from over charging. Cost $172.79 for 110 volt time 0 to 15 hours. Available at McMaster-carr


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## gdirwin (Apr 7, 2009)

I have a Manzanita PFC40M Charger (40A, 120 or 240V) with a backup external SSR relay (relays are expensive at this rating!). The BMS controls the charger on/off through the REGBUS (a low voltage interface) - as a backup, the FLT signal from the BMS (this is a normally grounded connection) is used to control the SSR relay. If a fault occurs (a wire breaks, the BMS controller senses a cell that is over-charged etc...) then the ground gets removed and the SSR relay opens.

I could easily add a timer into the SSR relay signal - when you open the fuel door to initiate charging, it would start a timer and ensure the charger gets turned off after X hours. 

This feature is already added in the PFC charger, but it has to be disabled (because the BMS can turn the charger on/off/on/off during balancing - if the internal timer is used, then it cannot be turned on again).

Thanks - good idea! Do you know of a good 12V timer? When it receives a 12V input, it should output 12V for X hours, then turn it off.


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## gdirwin (Apr 7, 2009)

The Zilla works well (at least with the wheels still in the air) if I bypass the BMS by grounding both relays (instead of using the FLT and LLIM signals from the BMS).

I will focus on the BMS wire shielding next - hopefully solve the com problems with the BMS...


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## gdirwin (Apr 7, 2009)

Got into an accident yesterday - icy roads. Not much of a bump, I was stopped, but got hit directly on my front right tire.

Front right quarter panel got munched, as well as the strut, rim, tire, CV joint, tie rod etc... I am not sure if the CV joint pushed into the transaxle or not, or if the steering gear is damaged.

Fortunately no one was hurt, and all of the EV stuff appears to be okay. My inertia switch tripped and opened both contactors. After resetting it, I could move the car about 5 ft to get it off the road.

Will see how the insurance company assesses damage - probably have to replace both struts and all 4 tires (as it is AWD) but not sure if they will pay for this or not...

I had a grand total of 980 kM on it in the last two months since I got it running. One thing that doing an EV conversion has taught me - anything can be fixed - no biggy I hope.


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## mikep_95133 (May 20, 2009)

Hi gdirwin,

Did you get your vehicle repaired successfully? How did the insurance company handle it?

I like your schematic of the dual ceramic heaters. I really want to go with a similar config in my truck. Mine useds the stock heater core and heats the water. Factory set up that way. I did upgrade the heater. It works alot better, but it's always at 100% output when it's turned on. No way to modulate the use of power. 

I was thinking of using pwm to drive the dual ceramic cores. You mentioned that earlier in your thread, but it appears you took a different route to control your heaters. Can you tell me why? My issue is that my pack runs from 400vdc to as low as 200vdc. So it looks like a Crydom d4d12 would work for the switching. A pwm input, variable duty cycle, signal is easy to generate. May have to use some IGBT's instead of the Crydom due to peak current at startup of heater.

What kind of current do your heaters pull? Do they in fact warm the interior as you had hoped?

My truck has the MR2 power steering pump as well. Did you connect the speed sensor electronics as well? Mine is just relay controlled.

Thanks for your hard work!

Mike


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## gdirwin (Apr 7, 2009)

Hi Mike:

My RAV is almost back from the shop after the accident - all damage was to stock OEM parts, so the EV stuff was not affected. Hopefully early next week.

I had a good experience with the insurance company (MPI - a Manitoba provinicially owned utility). The vehicle cost is quite low and by itself it would have been a marginal repair. I sent them receipts for all the EV stuff, and they had no problems in authorizing the repairs after this. They considered it like a taxi - base vehicle cost plus improvements (even though in my case the improvements were many times higher than the vehicle cost). In general they have been good to work with - they offer low rates and good service (an advantage compared to private insurance I think). The passenger side strut was damaged, and you have to replace struts on both sides (for safety/handling reasons) - I am still waiting to see if they will replace the driver side strut. For any parts which naturally wear, I had to pay a "betterment" fee - about 30%.

I am now using the PWM heater controller - it works well and gives a continuous/variable control of the heat to control the voltage to a set-point. This sounds ideal in concept, but in practice (in Winnipeg where the winters are very cold) I find that when you want heat, you want as much as you can get as fast as you can get it (perhaps for defrost etc..)... I do not drive long distances (maybe 15 minutes) and this is not long enough for the car to get "too hot". When you first turn on the heat, it starts at 0 output, and takes a minute or 2 for the PI controller to ramp it to 100%. There is a manual over-ride to manually set the output - you press and hold an arrow button and it switches to manual mode (a bit cumbersome). I pre-heat the vehicle with a separate AC interior heater (using an on-board timer) and added electric seat heaters. Keep in mind that we get extreme cold up here - snow on the ground from Oct to March, and AVERAGE temps in Jan around -18C (-4F) without a wind chill factor - it dips to -40C (-40F) for a few weeks every year - 2 heater elements for an EV in San Jose will be more than enough.

I have not measured the current from the heaters - my pack is less than 200VDC, and I use the Cyrdom D2D40 relays. Note that the current ratings are very sensitive to temperature and heat sinks (mine are mounted with a thermal compound and bolted to an alum heatsink). I thought I would use higher current SSRs to have something more robust.

Overall the heat is excellent - it gets going quickly and is quite hot - good enough for -40C winter driving I think. It is hotter than a ICE for most of the time (because you do not have to wait for it to heat up), but not as hot as a car that has been running for 2 hours.

I have the power steering pump speed sensor ready to be connected, but have not connected it yet... To be honest, I find the MR2 pump very noisy (even when it is just sitting there with no steering wheel pressure) and drive with the power steering turned off 99% of the time - I only turn it on for parallel parking etc... I have switches for the P/S and P/B relays inside the cabin.

Your pack varies from 200 to 400 VDC? Seems like a wide range... Presumably you will use ceramic heaters from a 220 VAC heater then?


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## mikep_95133 (May 20, 2009)

gdirwin said:


> Hi Mike:
> 
> My RAV is almost back from the shop after the accident - all damage was to stock OEM parts, so the EV stuff was not affected. Hopefully early next week.
> 
> ...


So you ended up using something like an Omega controller? Which model did you get? 

I suppose buying the fet based Crydom SSR's is easier. I was thinking of using some fet's that I use in my chargers that are 44a and 500v. 

Heaters here have a bit of a heat load with the humidity. I'm wanting quick rise time from my heater. I suppose I would have to try and find 240vac ceramic heaters. My water based heater is 240vac. It works fine. 

Any idea where to get 240 vac ceramic heaters?

How complex is the speed sensor hardware to adapt to your vehicle? Those pumps say 10v on them. At 14v they sure do scream.

These flooded nicads do have a wide range of operation. I usually run about 260-330vdc. But fresh off of the charger it comes down from 400v. A nearly dead pack will produce 200vdc.

Mike


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## gdirwin (Apr 7, 2009)

I got this one:
http://www.auberins.com/index.php?m...id=132&zenid=ac51b85556d4417f284e1738ad210b14

They also have a smaller 1/32 size, but it has fewer buttons and is a bit more cludgy. The 1/16 size shows the temp set-point and measured temp as well. They can both be purchased with 12V DC power.

As I said, they work well, lots of features, but it takes time to ramp up from 0.0 to full on, and the manual mode is a bit cludgy. Omega controllers also looked good, but were a lot more money. They may be easier to use in manual mode though?

220V ceramic heaters are common in Europe - 50 Hz or 60 Hz does not matter. Since you have 2 elements and with PWM control they are both used all the time, you could just connect your 120V ceramic elements in series. Now that I think about it, the wide voltage range of your floodies is similar to LiFePO4 (max 3.8V to a min of about 2.5V). Fully charged my pack is 175V - a 120V rms AC heater would have a peak voltage of 120*sqrt(2)=169.7 - this is a nice match. In your case with 2 of these in series (instead of used in parallel as with my setup) you would have no problems up to at least 339V. You mentioned 400V - I do not think this is too much higher and may be okay - it corresponds to an AC voltage which is 17.8% higher than 120V...

My car is a 2001 Toyota RAV4, so the power steering speed sensor signal should be the same as what is required for the newer MR2 pump - the wire color is the same as well... I have not tested this yet though.


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## mikep_95133 (May 20, 2009)

gdirwin said:


> I got this one:
> http://www.auberins.com/index.php?m...id=132&zenid=ac51b85556d4417f284e1738ad210b14
> 
> They also have a smaller 1/32 size, but it has fewer buttons and is a bit more cludgy. The 1/16 size shows the temp set-point and measured temp as well. They can both be purchased with 12V DC power.
> ...


I hesitate using 2 heaters in series. If one of them fails, then I have to tear the whole dash apart. I want 3k watts. So I was thinking of 2 1500w 240vac units in parallel. I'll start scouting around for elements.

Mike


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## gdirwin (Apr 7, 2009)

mikep_95133 said:


> I hesitate using 2 heaters in series. If one of them fails, then I have to tear the whole dash apart. I want 3k watts. So I was thinking of 2 1500w 240vac units in parallel. I'll start scouting around for elements.
> 
> Mike


Hi Mike:

Look carefully at the heater core location - in my RAV, the manual said to remove the entire dash, A/C etc... - but a lot of this work was due to the aluminum pipes that feed the core - in fact I could have removed the core (with the coolant pipes cut) quite easily... I have not heard of anyone with failures, but I agree that 2 in parallel would be better then 2 in series...


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## mikep_95133 (May 20, 2009)

Good point to look at the heater core to see if it will come out with the plumbing sawed off, easier.

I have not heard much in the way of failures, but I also don't hear much in the way of data in general either on ceramic heaters. Just that a single 1500w is many times not enough. My notes show 2800w on mine. But so much more indirect heating water. Maybe I'll head to my 'training grounds' and attempt to take one out at the junk yard first. $24 used at my local yard and new for $40 at Kragen. I should hit up a radiator shop for a leaking one.

Mike


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## gdirwin (Apr 7, 2009)

Got my car back today - almost $7,000 in damage - basically a new front end (new struts etc...).

Frontier Toyota did a great job - they gave me some discounts on the driver side stuff (strut etc..) and labor (not paid for by insurance). Nice paint, and they shined up the rest of the car. Good alignment, absolutely no concerns so far.

A big relief!

Bought new snow tires all around (Nokian Hakka's) - went to install them today, but the lug nuts for the aluminum mags do not seem to fit well on the new black steel rims for the winter tires... Will install tomorrow.


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## RKM (Jun 9, 2008)

Garth,

Glad to hear you're almost back on the road! I've used Nokians for years and think they are the best snow/ice tires. I have four on the Miata too. In 4WD, you'll be almost unstoppable. 

Rob


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## 94Tracker (Jan 17, 2011)

Oh man "unstoppable"? Thats not good you want to be able to stop better don't you? Seriously I run winter tires so I can stop and handle better than "all season" tires. Didn't help my daughter the other day as she introduced her Echo's front bumper to the hitch of the truck in front of her. Minimal damage everyone fine.

Garth, we spoke when you were looking for your Rav, I had a 04 Chili for sale. Glad to see you have it on the road but you should have waited much longer to "modify" the body. I've had good experiences with Frontier's body shop too. Is Julie still managing it?
Glen


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## gdirwin (Apr 7, 2009)

94Tracker said:


> Oh man "unstoppable"? Thats not good you want to be able to stop better don't you? Seriously I run winter tires so I can stop and handle better than "all season" tires. Didn't help my daughter the other day as she introduced her Echo's front bumper to the hitch of the truck in front of her. Minimal damage everyone fine.
> 
> Garth, we spoke when you were looking for your Rav, I had a 04 Chili for sale. Glad to see you have it on the road but you should have waited much longer to "modify" the body. I've had good experiences with Frontier's body shop too. Is Julie still managing it?
> Glen


Hi Glen:

Julie is there - I worked with Dan (general manager) and Don (in parts), and Chris did a lot of the mechanical work - I found everyone there most helpful and they did great work - a pleasure! 

There is a MEVA meeting on the 27th (last Thursday of each month) - not sure if RKM/Rob will be there with his Miata (great conversion!) as well as Gerry with his BMW... Maybe see you there?

Nokian Hakka tires are wonderous - great stopping power... The new tires are a bit higher and narrower - I run with the power steering pump off a lot, and I find it does not wander as much (ie catching ruts in the road etc...).


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## RKM (Jun 9, 2008)

To continue the Nokian commercial....

I regretted my choice of choice of words almost right away, "unstoppable". I agree that steering and braking are the critical advantage to good snow/ice tires. Being able to go is another benefit!

I bought our first set of Hakkapelita Q Nokians after a 15 cm snowfall on top of ice. I had been planning to buy the "WR" Nokians, which are good but which can be driven in the summer as well. On my drive over to the tire shop, the car felt like a curling rock as it would gently slide along with the brakes applied. I thought I'd be lucky to get to the tire shop without bumping into something or being bumped into. I called my tire guy (while parked) to change the order to "the best you've got". It was a night and day difference.

Under most winter driving conditions, our little front wheel drive car, with good snow rubber, is far better than the 4WD truck. The truck will handle more deep snow, but the car will stop and steer far better.

See you on the 27th.

Rob


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## gdirwin (Apr 7, 2009)

Yesterday was not a good day... Went to pick up my car from the dealership (the new steering gear they replaced from the accident was leaking, so it was replaced and needed an alignment). It was left outside at -30C overnight. In the morning it would not start - Zilla errors.

Got some help from Toyota, who pushed it into a warm garage - after less than 2 minutes of warmth, it started! This got me home, but there was a lot of battery sag, low volts during acceleration etc...

Plugged in for just a few hours, then went to our local EV association meeting (MEVA) - when I came out, it would not start - tried everything, no go. Fortunately RKM stuck around, and gave me a ride home (thanks Rob!).

Came back with my helpful neighbor (thanks Serge!) and we put big heaters on it etc... but still got an error from the Zilla - error 1234 was not in my manual. It went to -30C that night - no fun. Gave up, towed it home. It is now 2 am.

The new Zilla manual from cafeelectric says the error was "Motor voltage is high on startup" - made no sense.

I realized I had about 80 kM on the pack (home, to out-of-town bodyshop, they drove it to the dealership, back home, then to MEVA meeting), which is more than I normally drive. Combined with very cold temperatures, not plugged in (ie no battery warmers) meant the pack was "on fumes" - I thought the sag was just ultra-cold weather, but it was a bit of both.

I am hoping the Zilla 1234 error really means "battery voltage too low" and not "Motor voltage is high on startup". It is on the charger now (tucked at home in my garage) so will check this am.

Learned another lesson - the battery was drained to a bit less than 3V per cell (still in the safe range, but on fumes). My BMS settings are still very conservative, so this triggered a fault (one cell was on undervoltage) - this does 2 things:
- any BMS fault removes the ground from my negative contactor
- any BMS fault removes the ground from an AC relay on the charger

The idea was that this was a fail-safe - any FLT and you can't drive or charge. Well, if you have an undervoltage error and can't drive (good) but you also can't charge, not good. I had to connect a PC, clear the FLT, then charge... Eventually with a dash PC that would be convenient, but it was not convenient last night at -30.

I will put BMS/Manual switches on the -ve contactor (this was there already actually) and on the charger AC relay - this way I can bypass the FLT signal, ground the relays, and proceed...

Not a good day to do a range test! Will report more on my 1234 error when I get info...


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## gdirwin (Apr 7, 2009)

My faithful Zilla has continued with cold-weather errors - Otmar has been excellent to track stuff down...

I pulled both the power unit and the hairball - likely a pre-charge relay needs replacing in the hairball. Apparently all power units that were made by (now defunct) EV Components had a bug where it would cut out with an error under some conditions when the throttle was 100%. Earlier I received a Hairball patch firmware that limited the throttle (so avoided the error) but I figured I would get the bug fixed at the same time (which requires sending the power unit back as well).

I will add any updates about cold-weather use... Otmar has been great!


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## gdirwin (Apr 7, 2009)

Got the Zilla back today - Otmar repaired a bad trace (moisture freezing and causing a bad connection) and the pre-charge relay.

Will put it in this weekend, but first I will try to design a plastic box around it (even though it seems well protected now) to improve the moisture-resistance.

I also will be adding some conformal coating onto the board where wires come in...

After driving all winter, I w nohate driving an ICE - it is painful to go to a gas station and fill-er-up!


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## gdirwin (Apr 7, 2009)

I've been driving the EV for about 8 months now - no regrets, still have the grin!

Zilla was complaining about some hot temps (has not been a problem when it was -40!), so replaced the fan-driven 4" radiator with a 7"x12" aluminum transmission cooler - no fan, but I mounted it directly in the airflow behind the front bumper..

Also replaced a noisy strut-mount (nice and solid now).

Will replace my noisy vacuum brake pump today - using the VW/Audi pump now. I have been finding the reservoir does not hold as long as it used to - originally I got 3 pumps before the vac switch turned on, now only 2. I will look for loose fittings at the same time.

MY updated Zilla has been working well - no errors and better acceleration (originally I would get an error if I floored it - this was solved by limiting the throttle in the hairball firmware upgrade - now the power unit has been upgraded too, so back to full power).

I also got the BMS updated - the DC/DC converter was blown (likely my fault due to bad wiring - those darn tiny connectors on the BMS are a pain!). Elithion updated the firmware at the same time. My fuel gauge now works - the BMS outputs a 0-5V signal for SOC - I have a transistor circuit (from Elithion site) which drives the analog fuel gauge - only problem is that my Toyota has 2 resistive fuel level sensors (most only have 1) so my gauge shows 50% when it is full - I will have to play with the resistor values in the transistor circuit to figure this out.

In the old BMS version, any sag would result in SOC resetting to 20% - this seems fixed now, although there is less sag now that it is warm out (the real test will be next January). My charge current sensor is still not working, so I have to pull out the box with all the contactors etc.. to check it out.


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## DIYguy (Sep 18, 2008)

You have an exemplary build there Garth. I really like what your have done and the choices you made for this practical vehicle. Tell me, how are the heated battery boxes doing? Do you monitor temperature at all? and do you ventilate in the summer (assume enclosed boxes).

Cheers,
Gary


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## gdirwin (Apr 7, 2009)

Thanks Gary - the Farnam heating pads work great - all winter they kept the temps nice and cozy... I put them on a timer, so they came on a few hours before driving. I have some simple 120VAC thermal cut-outs, but never got around to using them. The boxes ended up with no insulation at all (not enough room) - with the heating pads it worked well though. I did not push high mileage though, and kept everything fully charged (mostly shorter drives) so not the best winter test.

There are fans in each bat box, tied into the Elithion bms (which measures the temps based on each cell board) - they have never come on yet (although this will be my first hot summer, so will see). They just vent into the car interior (I may have to change this).

I add a 240V/50A GFI box in my garage, so can now fully utilize my Manzanita 40A charger (before this I was only using 120/15A) - with the fast charger it always seems to be full whenever I go for a drive - should help the battery life. That said, on warmer days, I have to open the back door to keep the temps down inside the car - the charger throws a lot of heat.


Installed the VW pump - much quieter compared to the oil-filled muffler one I replaced. It is barely audible (compared to a incredibly loud HONKKKKK from the old one)... It is a higher pitch and runs for longer (much smaller pump) but all good. One note - the vent for the unit is a small hole at a joint (about the middle of the pump) - I thought it was the button on the bottom. I wrapped it with some insulation and duct tape (and covered this hole) and it kept running (ie did not produce any vacuum) - cleared the hole and all is well - most pleased.


Went for a 80 kM ride tonight (avg 80km/hr)- still had lots of juice left, no heating issues - all good.


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## gdirwin (Apr 7, 2009)

I did a bit of repair work this weekend - I have been driving my RAV daily for about 1.5 years now (about 20,000 kM) with few problems (so it was due). 

My charger mains safety relay failed... The charger can be controlled in 3 ways:
- Manzanita has a constant V/Constant I profile - so if the pack volts gets high enough the charger will back down
- The Elithion BMS looks at every cell volts, and will tell the charger to turn off (while it re-balances the cells) - it also looks at the total pack volts and will turn off the charger
- final fail-safe relay (the one that failed) - the SSR relay's ground was fed from the BMS Fault signal (so if the BMS is off or Faulted, AC mains get opened).

I used a Crydom SSR relay for 240VAC, 40A - a few mornings I came out and found my GFI charger breaker had tripped... Finally sat and watched it - works for about 15 minutes, then the SSR started buzzing and eventually the GFI trips. It had a decent heat sink, so not sure why it failed...

Replaced it with a heavy ABB 3 phase contactor - the current draw on the 12V coil was too much for the Elithion FLT signal, so had to add another relay. Big clunk when I open the fuel door!

Overall a nice cleanup (3 phase relays allows 2 hots and the neutral to be switched with a single cable going everywhere).

One of my car seat heaters also failed, so probably it is next on the list...


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## gdirwin (Apr 7, 2009)

Haven't updated my build thread for a while - almost 3 years of driving, and still couldn't be happier... I drive this car every day summer and winter (even at -40C) and reliability has been good.

Finally got AC to work (new compressor and condenser, driven from tailshaft). AC works even when stopped at lights (ie it still blows cold due to thermal storage). I do not have a fan on my condenser, so not sure how things will work at low speeds on hot days... I may have to re-install a fan (fans are noisy, so trying to avoid). Many EV folks think AC is just a waste, but I wanted a fully functional car (small SUV, AWD, AC etc... are all not super efficient, but still popular).

Moved my Zilla cooling pump around a bit (to give more room for AC condenser and easier access).

Updated my Elithion bms to V2.x, which allows me to download and auto-update (required dial-in by Davide via the internet). Also bought a spare/used unit. Fixed both units to repair the DC/DC converter to get 15V out for the current sensors - both charge and discharge current sensors now work. Great support from Elithion!

Also updating my OEM fuel gauge - toyota fuel gauges seem to work a bit different (2 fuel float sensors in series) - the Elithion site documented a transistor circuit to get 0-5V from the BMS energy gauge to interface to an analog fuel gauge. I had to change the resistor settings (and am using a different transistor) - still calibrating/fiddling, but getting pretty close.

Also installed 2 serial to Bluetooth adapters on the Zilla and Elithion - lets me use serial terminal programs on my smartphone (without having to connect a PC).

Not many things left to tinker with - I want to change the temperature dial to add a rotary switch - when the fan comes on, I want the heat (to SSR relays to my electric heaters) to come on only if the temperature is in the red... In the blue, it should disable the electric heaters so the fan can be used on its own or with the A/C on (I have to pull fuses now in summer).

Battery range feels somewhat reduced, but have not formally checked it... Range in winter is definitely much reduced.

All for now!


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## gdirwin (Apr 7, 2009)

Friday was not a good day - my trusty Zilla fried... Was accelerating for a few seconds when I heard a big "pop" and then nothing (no runaway acceleration or anything - just a soft coast to stop).

To avoid cross-posting - see:
http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showpost.php?p=377861&postcount=1

This is the first time I have been without a vehicle since 1981! I have always had a 1975 Ford pickup truck, but it is in the middle of a restoration.

I have only been left sitting one other time (weak circuit board connection) - not too bad in 3.5 years of daily driving I suppose!


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## dtbaker (Jan 5, 2008)

gdirwin said:


> Friday was not a good day - my trusty Zilla fried... Was accelerating for a few seconds when I heard a big "pop" and then nothing (no runaway acceleration or anything - just a soft coast to stop).
> 
> To avoid cross-posting - see:
> http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showpost.php?p=377861&postcount=1
> ...


bummer.... wondering if this may be due to bad build by EVComponents. I hope you're back on the road asap.

....I just read thru whole thread... enjoyed.  Didn't see any pictures of how you finally resolved clearance issue to transfer case. Did you just grind Warp9 case a little?

also, on your power steering. you stuck with the mr2 electric PS, right? did you stick with using your 36 tooth stock pickup and leaving the speed sensor, or just leave it on all the time? or, add microswitches/relays to turn on from steering column?


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## gdirwin (Apr 7, 2009)

Hi Dan:

My Zilla was built by EV components, but there was no indication of quality problems etc... I beefed up the cooling when I installed the re-built controller (I had occasional MIL light flashing on hot days on the highway - never for more than a few seconds) and this has improved things. So far so good!

The clearance issue was resolved by a slight grinding of the motor casing - worked well.

I stuck with the toothed wheel and stock rpm sensor - also has been 100% (almost 4 years now).

My MR2 pump stopped working a few months ago, and I have not done anything about it... I have a spare, and will swap it at some point (but no huge rush). I installed new tires, and went with a narrower 215 instead of the wider 235 (both OEM sizes for a RAV) - find it handles better and less wander when in rutted roads etc.. - also makes the steering easier.

My last upgrade was a Pioneer AppRadio head unit - this is an inexpensive touchscreen that mirrors my Android phone onto the car screen... I made a custom moulded mount so I can just drop my phone into a cradle, which then connects it to an MHL to HDMI adapter... This way my phone charges, mirroring is done via HDMI to the head unit, and all audio is high quality. All music, navigation, internet access etc... is handled by the phone, as well as hands-free calling etc... - ie "Hello Google", followed by "Navigate to work", "Call Kathy", "where is the nearest Tim Hortons" etc... Touchscreen on the head unit also works - a "big button" app called Car Home Ultra starts up when docked. There also is a backup camera, and integration with steering wheel controls is possible (although not on my car). An e-brake bypass relay can also be installed, which allows all Android apps to be used while driving (use at your own risk). Best system I have seen (including OEM stuff) and is only about $400 Cdn plus another $50 for the MHL adapter...


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## gdirwin (Apr 7, 2009)

Overdue update - I have driven a little over 31,000 kM - this has been my daily driver for 4 years now...

My battery range is reduced somewhat - worst case now in winter is about 70 kM (as opposed to a best case of 100 kM in summer) - still respectable...

I recently added a 12V timer to my charge circuit - when the timer expires (say after 3 hours) then this disconnects my charger relay, which reduces the draw (it is a big 3 phase AC contactor) on my 12V battery... Originally the 12V DC/DC was also energized when I was charging (ie topping up the 12V battery when the pack was charged) but I changed it so that the -ve contactor is totally open when charging (this keeps the motor completely isolated during charging). With 3 contactors it would be possible to keep the motor isolated, yet still connect the DC/DC - with the timer I find I do not run down the 12V battery anymore.

I also converted my steering wheel cruise control to control my stereo (next track, vol +, vol -, mute etc...) - I will post this separately.

So far so good - still got the grin!


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## tylerwatts (Feb 9, 2012)

Congrats gdirwin 
Any chance of some pics of the head unit above and docking please? Thanks


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## gdirwin (Apr 7, 2009)

My head unit is a Pioneer AppRadio - SPH-DA110 (other models are available with CD/DVD players etc... too). I use the free AppRadio Unchained app (or a non-free unloaded version of the above) to get the mirroring and touchscreen to work. There also is a bypass relay required if you want to use all of the above while driving. An inexpensive backup camera is also wired in (with a wire from the reverse lights into the headunit to turn the camera on). There is an Apple interface to this as well, but I have not tried it.

Interior shot - my phone (Galaxy S4) slides into the homemade dock in the centre console. This connects the phone, to an MHL to HDMI adapter (which also provides power to the phone) - an HDMI cable carries digital audio and video to the head unit.









Head Unit is a touchscreen - AV come in from HDMI (or a backup camera analog video signal) and the touchscreen works via bluetooth.

Android app menu - any app can be installed (remember - it is the phone doing the processing, not the head unit - it is just like a touchscreen

Navigation works great (again standard Android KitKat with Google Maps) - voice commands are excellent.









There are lots of apps for "big-button" driving mode - this is Car Home Ultra:









Lots of good audio apps available too - I use PowerAmp.

The next few pics are from the Android Torque app - I added an ODB2 cable to my Elithion BMS, and then plugged in a Bluetooth ODB2 adapter (very inexpensive - maybe $10?). I customized the CAN bus PIDs based on Elithion BMS documentation to add all battery voltages, temperatures etc... Basically anything that the BMS records can be plotted on graphs, meters, dials etc... Here are some screen pics:











































I wish there were more options to customize graphs with multiple curves etc... - using 40+ meters to show battery voltages and temperatures is a bit overkill - one graph with 40 curves would be better. I understand Torque developers are working on this - ideally a plugin with bar charts etc... specifically designed for BMS quantities would be ideal. Gets the job done for now though.

I also have serial port to Bluetooth adapters on my Zilla and Elithion BMS - I can open a terminal on the touchscreen, and via command line I can customize/view all available information.

Best head unit I have seen - definetely modernizes an old car!


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## gdirwin (Apr 7, 2009)

Its been a long time since I have posted any updates - this has been my daily driver since the start (summer and -40 winter days included).

Recent problems:
- had a charger failure - got my main charger fixed (totally new power section replaced), but also added 2 thunderstruck EV chargers (for redundancy - great deal and work well!)
- had a cooling pump failure (so replaced the small main coolant pump)

My range has definitely gone down over 6 years - probably down to about 70-80 kM (from slightly over 100). This is likely due to extra-cold days with the car left outside during the day, then driving home and immediately plugging in and charging (charging with cold batteries is not good). The delay charger time should resolve this.

Not too bad for reliability - its been my daily driver for almost six years and still going strong (still got the grin!).


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## Moltenmetal (Mar 20, 2014)

Thanks for the update! That 's a durable grin- you must have sore cheeks after four years!


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## gdirwin (Apr 7, 2009)

Have not posted in a while - REV4 is still my daily driver, although batteries are definitely wearing out. I figure charging when it is cold is the main culprit (I made a mod some time back to delay charging until batteries have warmed up).

Recently I had my IOTA DC/DC converter fail - replaced it with a Meanwell HEP-600-15. They have a 600C model (with a 12V battery charging profile) and a 600 model as a power supply - I went with the 15 volt power supply version, and trimmed the output to 13.8 V. When it is turned on into a depleted battery (ie low voltage) or too high of a load is drawn, it will keep its output current constant (which seems to fit the bill). Nice unit, well constructed, sealed, fanless etc...

I should add that this left my hanging last night - I new it was dead, but for the last week I would manually charge my 12V battery, and hope it would hold for the day... Last night we went to a hockey game (go Jets!) but could not get my regular indoor parking spot (-30C ish outside)... On the way home the car died and would not start (12V was down to 10.5V so not enough there to keep Zilla etc.. connected reliably). A boost was required, and got me home. This is the 3rd time (in 9 ish years) it has left me hanging (ran out of juice once before, had a motor controller failure once) so not too bad (probably similar to gas cars).

I also have on order new heating pads - I bought 4 350mmx350mm 600W 220VAC silicone heating pads (meant for 3D printers apparantely?) - I will operate them at 110VAC to get 150W each (300W in the front, and 300 W in the back). A bit more heat than my original Farnam units. I suspect a few of them have burned out (batteries are not getting as warm as they used too - it was -30C here recently and I had a hard time keeping them above 0C in a garage). I also got Inkbird 100 ~240VAC ITC-308 digital thermostats - they work from 110 or 220 VAC, keep settings when turned off etc... Will report back when these are installed.

No regrets on component selection really - DC Warp 9, Zilla controller, Manzanita Charger (and backup Thunderstruck Charger), Elithion BMS etc.. have been working well.

8 years and still grinning!


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## tylerwatts (Feb 9, 2012)

Awesome news. Really love your build. It's been a long standing inspiration and I'd love to build a Rav myself some day.

Cheers

Tyler


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## gpearce (Feb 9, 2020)

Hi Garth, are you still driving your Rav? 
I was registered as 94Tracker before but I couldn't reactivate it.
I'm thinking of picking up a Rav4EV adding a rear motor and more batteries.


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## gdirwin (Apr 7, 2009)

Sorry for the very late reply - yes my rav4 EV conversion is still my daily driver (11 years and counting!). Battery range is reduced, but otherwise things are working well. I went through a few hairballs - Manzanita was very patient and repaired each board - the latest boards have extra conformal coatings installed and it has been good so far (as all my failures occured on humid days).

My most recent work is to replace brushes in my Warp 9 motor (should have been done some time ago actually!). One of the brushes actually wore down and the wire burnt off! You can see one of the old brushes on the workshop table (new ones are installed) - probably wore down to 2/3 of the orig length. When I was stopped and hit the gas, sometimes nothing happened (due to the broken brush wire) - if I got out and gave the car a nudge in gear it would run again. No big arc marks on the brush holders, rotor looked great, no slots pulled out, brushes were still moving well etc. I was very lucky I think (replace brushes much earlier folks!).

I was able to remove the motor CE without having to remove the entire motor from the car (a bit of fiddling but worked). CE end shown below - afer the 4 bolts were removed, I used a puller (but very mild force) to take it off without hammering on it.

Got new T300 split top brushes and upgraded/stronger springs (thanks to Hunter at Netgain and Todd at CanEV - good folks!) - they come shaped from Netgain, but I wanted to do a bit more breakin before running at 1000 amps. I first spun it with a 12v battery (smooth and reasonably quiet!) , but it uses more power than you think (even with the clutch in - more than a 10 amp 12V bat charger can handle). I want at least 6 hours of run time to reshape - although they were shaped from Netgain they were not fully contacting the rotor (and initially only were touching on the high side) . I will temporarily set the max speed on the Zilla to 1000 rpm (so I can just put a brick on the throttle pedal and let it run off the main pack (an idea from this site!) - I will try this tonight. 

Also putting synthetic lube in all differentials and in the AWD transaxle (should improve efficiency on those -40C days) and building a better vaccuum bottle (longer 4" abs tube) as an emergency brake could feel weak due to lack of vacuum.


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## remy_martian (Feb 4, 2019)

I see you're an alumnus of the Rich Rebuilds School of Foot Safety 😂


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## gdirwin (Apr 7, 2009)

My son stepped into the photo (barefoot) - or course I had my steel tow safety shoes on as usual..

Setting the Zilla max speed to 1000 rpm worked great - put a brick on the gas pedal and let it run to get the brushes to seat... If you go full throttle then the Zilla tends to be "jerky" whereas a partial gas pedal gives smoother 1000 rpm constant speed... Much easier to use the full pack rather then trying to use a 12V battery...


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## PCoward1964 (Aug 10, 2021)

gdirwin said:


> Formally introducing myself - I am an Electrical Engineer working in power
> systems (wind farms, HVDC links, machines etc...) and specializing in
> computer simulation. I also have a bit of auto-mechanic experience (I
> have owned a 1975 F250 4x4 Highboy since 1983).
> ...


Hey Garth,

Thanks for the content in your post, very useful.

@ August 2021 what would you update about your original post? In terms of parts specifications, now that you have had chance to reflect on your conversion. Time has moved on, new tech has come on to the market, prices have reduced.

The reason I ask this question is, I live in the UK and have a RAV4 2002, manual powertrain 2000cc, petrol which I plan to convert to a EV. Chassis, body is in good condition, worth reusing as my model.
I've seen some approx costs for doing the REV conversion, I'm curious to know which parts to purchase?!?!

Hoping to have the conversion completed for me by a qualified auto electrician, mechanic at a EV specialist.

I intend to use the REV for town driving, less than 50 mile journeys each day. I live in a flat area, on the south coast, Poole, Dorset. it would be nice to have a range of 50-120 miles., for driving into London.
Plan is to use local charging points in regional towns, rather than have a charger fitted at my residence.

I have a UK Ltd company which is involved in generating leads for EVs and Hydrogen vehicles manufacturers.

Your response and comments would be most welcome.

Regards,

Pete..


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## gdirwin (Apr 7, 2009)

Hi Pete and nice to meet you. I know it is a long thread, but dont just read the first post - there are many upgrades along the way (DC/DC converter, vacuum pumps, bigger vac reservoir). I ended up with 46X200AH LIFPO4 cells, Zilla Z1KHV controller and Warp 9 motor, and an Elithion BMS - all are still in use.

I would consider a more modern AC drive and controller (instead of DC brushed motors) - it is not a huge ordeal to maintain brushes (blow the dust from motor out 2 times a year, pulled motor out and switched brushes once since 2009) but the "direct short" aspect of DC controllers is not present in AC controllers. I think this would also lead to better overall efficiency - suprisingly it may be still hard to find high power AC motors and controllers I think (so if you can live with lower performance it is much less expensive, and much easier on your batteries). Using AC would mean a higher DC voltage and lower AH cells. I would not consider using lead acid batteries - although tempting due to lower initial costs, they are heavy/bulky, short life, maintenance needed etc... 

Although some things have "moved on" - surprisingly the cost of LIFEPO4 large format cylindrical cells have not changed - virtually the same cost today as it was in 2009 (which due to inflation means some small reduction). If you can get cells from a salvage vehicle (leaf etc.) that would reduce costs. If you need 50 miles, you will need a pack bigger than mine - cold weather reduces range, and over time the range reduces as well. My pack started at about 100 kM, but is down to 50-60 now - this degradation can be minimized by adding insulation and heating pads on day 1 (ie do not charge when it is cold). I would even add an interlock to disable charging unless the cells are above 0C. The charge port should be standardized now - J1772 etc.

I would still go wtih a BMS (for monitoring cells as a minimum) - maxwell DC/DC converter has been awesome. Charger and Zilla controller are still supported by Manzanita (they have been great) but there are other less expensive options now. Hopefully you can find a quieter vaccuum pump and power steering hydraulic pump. Do put in a large vacuum reservoir - my original 4" ABS tube was too small (and lead to a scary sensation when the power brakes loose vaccuum from a hard brake and it is back to manual) - all good with a larger ABS vac reservoir.

A RAV4 has been a perfect match for my needs (ie small SUV to carry hockey stuff, kids etc, AWD in winter etc.) - that said it does not have the cool factor. It is a good daily driver, but for the amount of cost/effort to convert, make 100% sure that it is the correct vehicle for you. My 2001 has been updated with a touchscreen, android head unit etc.. but it is still a 20 year old vehicle - if you can find something newer it would be better. A lot of money to convert, so using a newer donor would make sense. I dont think they still make standard transmissions in newer RAV4s (at least not available in Canada) - manual transmissions are a lot more popular in the UK so hopefully you can find one.

All the best on your conversion - make sure to add a build thread!

Garth


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## Electric Land Cruiser (Dec 30, 2020)

gdirwin said:


> *Oh-oh - big problem! Which motor will fit?*
> 
> Oh-oh - big problem...
> 
> ...


A Nissan LEAF EM57 motor is very small and compact. Not sure if it will fit nicely in there with the t-case however. There is a lot of aluminum casting that could be cut off to slim it down also. See the photos below:


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## tylerwatts (Feb 9, 2012)

Electric Land Cruiser said:


> A Nissan LEAF EM57 motor is very small and compact. Not sure if it will fit nicely in there with the t-case however. There is a lot of aluminum casting that could be cut off to slim it down also. See the photos below:


That wouldn't clear the transfer case unfortunately, the max was around 8" but you could build a tunnel to move the motor over if the motor were short enough, though I don't believe a Leaf motor is.

I've wanted to convert a Rav4 for years though I'd go twin motor for AWD but if I kept the trans I'd fit something like a VW GTE electric motor inside the bell housing in a water cooled housing, no clutch and probably only keep 2nd and 4th gear, reduce resistance etc in the gearbox. But there a fair bit of machining work.

cheers
Tyler


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## 94Tracker (Jan 17, 2011)

tylerwatts said:


> That wouldn't clear the transfer case unfortunately, the max was around 8" but you could build a tunnel to move the motor over if the motor were short enough, though I don't believe a Leaf motor is.
> 
> I've wanted to convert a Rav4 for years though I'd go twin motor for AWD but if I kept the trans I'd fit something like a VW GTE electric motor inside the bell housing in a water cooled housing, no clutch and probably only keep 2nd and 4th gear, reduce resistance etc in the gearbox. But there a fair bit of machining work.
> 
> ...


Thanks Electric Land Cruiser for posting the pictures. Now I know it's not too long and I can run reduction gears between the motor and transmission. Which will push the motor over enough to clear the transfer case. Thankfully I work in a shop with machining capability. 

Tyler, removing unnecessary parts from transmission is possible? I was thinking that way also. As for motor choice the used EV selection is limited in Canada. We have only had Leaf and Tesla for any length of time, most of the others didn't have a presence here until recently. I want to use an existing EV system for reliability and hopefully simplicity. For the money I have to put into this I could have bought a compliance Rav4EV from California back in 2019, but no AWD. Current RavEV prices are ridiculous for a 10 year old car. But we don't do this for saving money do we, it's for the challenge.


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## tylerwatts (Feb 9, 2012)

94Tracker said:


> Thanks Electric Land Cruiser for posting the pictures. Now I know it's not too long and I can run reduction gears between the motor and transmission. Which will push the motor over enough to clear the transfer case. Thankfully I work in a shop with machining capability.
> 
> Tyler, removing unnecessary parts from transmission is possible? I was thinking that way also. As for motor choice the used EV selection is limited in Canada. We have only had Leaf and Tesla for any length of time, most of the others didn't have a presence here until recently. I want to use an existing EV system for reliability and hopefully simplicity. For the money I have to put into this I could have bought a compliance Rav4EV from California back in 2019, but no AWD. Current RavEV prices are ridiculous for a 10 year old car. But we don't do this for saving money do we, it's for the challenge.


@94Tracker I'm very curious of your plans, would you mind starting your own thread so we don't pollute Mr gdirwin's thread here? Love to chat with you there.

cheers
Tyler


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