# Soliton Jr vs Synkromotive



## PhantomPholly (Aug 20, 2008)

I don't think you're "missing" anything. The Solitron inventors are active on and respected on this site, no one is trying to hide that. On the other hand, the Solitron has a number of features simply unavailable in other controllers, and excellent support which may or may not be available in another product, and excellent performance and "tunability."

In the EV world, when you go the "cheap road" it is a lot like the Experimental Airplane market - you can make lots of solutions work, but some are just easier than others.

I suspect if that other product were truly simple, reliable, and inexpensive people would talk it up all the time for at least some reasonable niche. If they aren't talking about it at all? Well, I certainly doubt it's some kind of conspiracy.


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## cruisin (Jun 3, 2009)

lowcrawler said:


> I'm (likely) looking to build a ~144 volt system in my 1970 bug. I find the stock motor (57hp) to be perfectly adequate performance-wise. As such, I don't think a huge monster controller is necessary. I also don't want to spend a needlessly large amount of money for my mostly-40mph, some highway-driving, never-racing car. Meaning the huge controllers (Soliton1, Zilla, etc) are out.
> 
> At the same time, I want my build to be as simple as possible. Built in safety features, precharge, voltage/amperage limits, etc are a big plus; as well as having more items integrated (meters, gauges, GUI's, good logging and communication, etc). This removes most of the 'lower-end' controllers like the Curtis, Alltrax, Kelly, etc.
> 
> ...


You may want to consider the AC-50 which will save you on batteries, longer range, regeneration, superior controller, satisfactory without a heat sink, cooler running motor, no brushes to change or to adjust, gauge to provide you with most information you have said you needed and all at a reasonable price of $4400. [email protected]


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## Qer (May 7, 2008)

cruisin said:


> You may want to consider the AC-50 which will save you on batteries, longer range, regeneration, superior controller, satisfactory without a heat sink, cooler running motor, no brushes to change or to adjust, gauge to provide you with most information you have said you needed and all at a reasonable price of $4400.


No, not much, yes, no, no, maybe, not a problem in real life, Jr got that too (and I think Synkromotive has it as well) and the AC-50 is just 1/3 of the power for the same bucks.

Have you even TRIED a Soliton or Synkromotive in real life or are you just bullshitting?


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## lowcrawler (Jun 27, 2011)

cruisin said:


> all at a reasonable price of $4400. [email protected]


Which is over budget and, given I'm going DC, off topic. Thanks for the heads up though.

Anyone else have any input comparing these two controllers?


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

Cruisin, you've been asked before not to advertise outside of the marketplace. 
Please stop.


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## EVfun (Mar 14, 2010)

lowcrawler said:


> Which is over budget and, given I'm going DC, off topic. Thanks for the heads up though.
> 
> Anyone else have any input comparing these two controllers?


Nice shutdown. 

I have not used either but I would lean toward the Soliton Jr. The crew is here handing out free support. Plus, it has a built in main contactor, eliminating that from the list of parts you need to buy.

If little of your driving is freeway you may be able to score a good used Curtis 1221 or 1231. They whine a little at low speeds because they drop to a lower switching frequency at low output. They require a bit more to install, like a precharge circuit, but nothing complicated. With the Soliton Jr. available for about $2000 I wouldn't pay new price for a Curtis.


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## lowcrawler (Jun 27, 2011)

Given the similarities of the two controllers at first glance (built in pre-charge, built-in main contactor, programable, more-than-powerful enough, etc) I contacted Ives at synkromotive and asked about operating temps and charging... this was the response, which came back extremely quickly:



> While all the components in the DC750 are rated to -20C it has not yet been tested below 0C. While lithium performs well in general, like lead it also offers reduced performance at very low temperatures. A very noticeable drop in lithium battery output occurs as low as 10C. It is likely the initial performance of you EV in winter will be very low but will improve after 5 to 20 minutes of driving due to self heating. The same self heating will occur much quicker in the controller bringing it up to a normal range because of the lower thermal mass of the controller than that of your batteries. In any case you make a good point; the low temp operation will be verified as soon as possible.
> 
> The DC750 can operate as “DC charge controller”. The DC750 requires a DC source with a peak voltage below the minimum voltage of your pack (you cannot simply plug into an AC source). If you wish to charge directly from 125 VAC line then you would need to have a low pack voltage of about 170 VDC. This requires a 185 volt nominal lithium pack. In this case an ordinary diode bridge to convert the AC source to DC thereby allowing the controller to precisely charge your pack up to the 200 VDC a 185 volt lithium pack would require.
> 
> ...


If I understand correctly, I could feed the synkromotive with a cheap DC power supply and it would effectively become my charger. I sent an email to verify...


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## lowcrawler (Jun 27, 2011)

Given 1k Zilla's come up for sale on the used market --- how do those now 3+ year old designs hold up compared to the Soliton Jr and the Synkromotive? I admit I don't know much about the Zilla other than it was supposedly 'awesome' and it's no longer made...


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## cruisin (Jun 3, 2009)

david85 said:


> Cruisin, you've been asked before not to advertise outside of the marketplace.
> Please stop.


 
My intent is to help him with his decision in selecting a controller and the pricing he was looking at. I was pointing out that the AC-50 is much better with a dependability record (1238) much better than the controllers he was considering. I also was pointing out the advantages in selecting the AC controller over the DC especially regarding his concern about fans and water cooling. Is our function here not to help each other in the decision making process. I have used all these controllers and motors in my classes and believe I have a lot of knowledge concerning their intended use. Since I have been doing this for over 50 years and am a EV Conversion teacher/instructor and one of a few in CA that is accredited, I believe I have something to offer. Why don't you take a look at the remarks made by that person when I provided some advice and help. As a administrator, you should be more aware of what BOTH parties are saying when you criticize. You did this once before and those others are still criticizing people who are trying to help. I could give you their names but I am sure you know who they are.


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## lowcrawler (Jun 27, 2011)

Cruisin',

I appreciate your input... just as I appreciated it when you sent me the info in a PM when I first announced my build.

That said, please stop derailing my thread. I have looked at what you are selling and I have decided the benefits of AC do not apply to me enough to overcome the added complication and cost. I am trying to get the best info I can on the various solutions that DO apply to me; please allow me to do that.


So anyway - pros/cons of the 1k Zilla, Synkromotive, and Soliton Jr. ? I don't know enough to know which would be the better solution for me (where money and simplicity matters and performance really doesn't)


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## Qer (May 7, 2008)

lowcrawler said:


> That said, please stop derailing my thread.


It would also be nice if he stopped his slander without presenting proof. I know that Soliton is very reliable (I'd know about problems like those Cruisin's hinting about...  ) and as far as I can tell both Zilla and Synkromotive are reliable builds as well. Cruisin's sales by talking bad about the competition is very tiresome and rather impolite imo.



lowcrawler said:


> So anyway - pros/cons of the 1k Zilla, Synkromotive, and Soliton Jr. ?


Since you haven't gotten much answers I'll throw in my opinions and hopefully that will get things moving. If nothing else because someone will probably find that I'm biased (which I am, of course) and point out in what way and perhaps this thread will be filled with something else but Cruisin's sales pitch. 

*Soliton jr:*


Pretty much a 500 Amp continuous controller with a peak current that can spike higher for a short time.
Splash proof, as far as I know the only DC-controller (except S1) that is that.
12-342 pack Voltage.
No ELKOs in the power path. It's a good thing even though I'm not the right person to explain the finer details of that. 
Has precharge and contactor built in.
Configurable/upgradeable/logging through ethernet. Supports PCs with Windows and Linux and at least upgrades from Mac. Should actually be upgradeable from anything running a browser (including a smart-phone) even though I haven't tested it (probably should). Pre compiled versions of logger for Windows and Linux but even though I don't personally compile a version of logger for OSX I think JR did that? Any day now I'll buy a Mac to support that too, aaaany day now... Both protocol specification and the software for logger is open for anyone to use and distributed with the upgrades and there's at least one third part application for a dash board pad compatible with the Soliton.
Air or water cooled.
*Zilla:*


1000 Amps peak, ~300 Amps continuously.
Not splash proof.
36-(model depending) pack Voltage.
ELKOs.
I think precharge is built in, however not contactor.
Configurable/upgradeable/logging through serial port. Originally used Palm Pilots for access, today uses free third part software from an ordinary PC (not sure what OS it supports, might only be Windows). A bit arcane, but works.
Only water cooled.
*Synkromotive (the one I know the least about):*


750 Amps peak, no mentioning of continuous as I can find.
Not splash proof(?).
24-180 Volt pack voltage.
ELKOs.
Precharge built in, not contactor.
Configurable/upgradeable/logging(?) through USB. Windows only, as far as I can tell only proprietary software?
Only air cooled.
I've tried to be fair in my comparison and I hope that I've got all details right. If I didn't it was unintentional and I hope that someone will point out what's wrong. And, of course, as the software developer for Soliton it's hard for me to be 100% non-biased. 

Note: ELKO is apparently European slang for Electrolyte capacitors. I thought it was US slang that has spread to Europe but apparently (according to T) it's the opposite. Except that it hasn't spread that much. Sorry for any confusion...


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## drgrieve (Apr 14, 2011)

There are 5 entries in evalbum using Synkromotive. I would try contacting them and see what they say about it.

Even though you think you don't want water cooling - having the option as a backup is worth considering.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

cruisin said:


> My intent is to help him with his decision in selecting a controller and the pricing he was looking at.


No, you are not.
The OP did not ask for other options on controllers and you did not offer any other options then the one you sell.
You provided no useful insight into the controllers the OP requested for and did not contribute to the thread in so far as the OP's questions.

Please stop advertising outside of the marketplace.


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## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

lowcrawler said:


> ...It also looks like I could actually use the Synkromotive as my charger (edit: looks like that would only work with CD input? dunno) ...


You could do the same thing with a Soliton1 (boost or buck mode) or a Soliton Jr (buck mode only) but we don't really discuss it because it's not really practical. Here's why:

The trick to turning a motor controller (any of them, really) into a charger is to use the motor's field (you must disconnect the armature!) as the inductor in either a step-down switching regulator (buck) or a step-up (boost). If you start sketching the circuit out on paper you'll find you need a lot of single pole switches (ie - contactors) to disconnect the armature, re-route power to the battery pack (in buck mode), and to switch in the external power source (whether that is a battery or the rectified AC line). 

If the external power source is the AC line then you will also need to provide a full wave rectifier and filter capacitance appropriately sized for the amperage draw (if you want to charge at more than 1kW you really ought to use a PFC stage instead). 

Since the Synkro is rated for 180VDC max, as a line operated charger it would be limited to operation on 120VAC only (and even then you will be exposing it to ~165VDC, which isn't much margin).

Ok - carry on. Qer and I are happy to let you hash out which controller is best for you and will more or less stay out of the debate except to correct any factually incorrect statements.


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## Yabert (Feb 7, 2010)

Hi

I don't had any one of these three controller for my motorcycle or my car, but if I had the same three choose last years, I chosen the Soliton Jr.

The Sjr seem to me simply superior to the others.... especially for his price.

A friend of mine has a zilla since many years and it work perfectly. But I don't really appreciate the outside airball with his multiples wires and the necessity of water cooling (don't realy have an heat dissipative body).
About Synkromotive, I think the little price difference can't justify his choose. Build in contactor, voltage versability (+300v) and multiple others great feature give the advantage at the Sjr.


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## lowcrawler (Jun 27, 2011)

Very helpful info here - thank you. I did not realize the main contactor was not included in the Synkromotive - I thought it was, instead if just has "main contactor control".

Very interesting info. Thanks all. I've contacted Ives and seen if he wants to chime in here.


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## EVfun (Mar 14, 2010)

lowcrawler said:


> So anyway - pros/cons of the 1k Zilla, Synkromotive, and Soliton Jr. ? I don't know enough to know which would be the better solution for me (where money and simplicity matters and performance really doesn't)


You will have to water cool a Zilla, which is why I didn't mention it before (based on your first post.) They lack the ability to air cool. Even in my 1100 lb. Buggy I have water in the controller in a thermo-syphon loop. With the Zilla dry I could only go about 15 gentle miles before the temperature light output started blinking. 

That said, I have been very happy with my Zilla. It has been a reliable little box that is easy to mount. I think the Zilla 1K-LV vs. the Soliton Jr. is mostly a question of if you want 1000 amps limited to a 156 volt pack or 500 amps with up to a 300 volt pack. With the Zilla you have to supply the main contactor, though it handles precharge and controls it.


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## cruisin (Jun 3, 2009)

EVfun said:


> You will have to water cool a Zilla, which is why I didn't mention it before (based on your first post.) They lack the ability to air cool. Even in my 1100 lb. Buggy I have water in the controller in a thermo-syphon loop. With the Zilla dry I could only go about 15 gentle miles before the temperature light output started blinking.
> 
> That said, I have been very happy with my Zilla. It has been a reliable little box that is easy to mount. I think the Zilla 1K-LV vs. the Soliton Jr. is mostly a question of if you want 1000 amps limited to a 156 volt pack or 500 amps with up to a 300 volt pack. With the Zilla you have to supply the main contactor, though it handles precharge and controls it.


Under ideal conditions, using multiple controllers mentioned in this thread in our classroom, the failure rate was way above average for electronic components and that is why we changed to AC. I will not release the results due to the feedback I received from this forum although the data is available in a white paper via the internet.


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## lowcrawler (Jun 27, 2011)

Ives again got back to me... he doesn't seem to think his direct participation in this forum would be welcome, so I'm posting what he wrote.



> Joe,
> 
> My direct engagement in this forum would and should be considered advertising. So I will only offer this to you and you may do as you wish:
> 
> ...


For me, the fact I can easily get the creator's "ear" is a huge bonus for both the Soliton Jr and the Skyromotive controllers. Part of me wishes Ives just never got back to me and I could have an easily-best solution.


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

Am I to understand the synkromotive controller is continuous rated at 750 amps (assuming the battery can support it)?


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## dtbaker (Jan 5, 2008)

drgrieve said:


> There are 5 entries in evalbum using Synkromotive. I would try contacting them and see what they say about it.
> 
> Even though you think you don't want water cooling - having the option as a backup is worth considering.



I think gottdi has been using/testing synkromotives for a while, you might ask him to chime in on direct feature comparison.

I have been using the old standby curtis 1221 in my first 'economy' build... its 'enough' for 120v thru an 8" DC motor but I'm looking at the field for a 'performance' build in my Sunbeam over the winter hopefully with more like a 700amp peak at 144 or 156v thru a Warp9.

The zilla's availability has not seemed real stable... in part to production equipment issues stemming from the EVC/Morrison fiasco. I never really liked to idea of a controller plus a separate 'hairball'.... so find myself gravitating to the Soliton. The Soliton1 seems overkill for what I want as I don't expect extended highway speed, so the Jr is emerging as MY top choice despite max amp limits a little lower than Zilla, Raptor, or maybe Synkro.


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## tomofreno (Mar 3, 2009)

> That said, I have been very happy with my Zilla. It has been a reliable little box that is easy to mount. I think the Zilla 1K-LV vs. the Soliton Jr. is mostly a question of if you want 1000 amps limited to a 156 volt pack or 500 amps with up to a 300 volt pack.


:EVfun

I think you may be missing that point dt since you said:


> The Soliton1 seems overkill for what I want as I don't expect extended highway speed, so the Jr is emerging as MY top choice despite max amp limits a little lower than Zilla, Raptor, or maybe Synkro.


With the much higher possible pack voltage you can run higher motor current than battery pack current, putting the same or more current through the motor with the SJr. Or maybe its just that you don't want to try and find room for that many cells, even if they can be lower Ah.

500A and 300V is a very powerful controller!


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## dtbaker (Jan 5, 2008)

tomofreno said:


> I think you may be missing that point dt since you said:
> With the much higher possible pack voltage you can run higher motor current than battery pack current, putting the same or more current through the motor with the SJr. Or maybe its just that you don't want to try and find room for that many cells, even if they can be lower Ah.
> 
> 500A and 300V is a very powerful controller!


not arguing with these points.... only that the Zilla may or may not be available at any given time, and in MY case the 300v, 1000amps is more than what I need.


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## PhantomPholly (Aug 20, 2008)

dtbaker said:


> not arguing with these points.... only that the Zilla may or may not be available at any given time, and in MY case the 300v, 1000amps is more than what I need.


So, it sounds like you're steering toward Solitron Jr. (500amps/300v).


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## cruisin (Jun 3, 2009)

PhantomPholly said:


> So, it sounds like you're steering toward Solitron Jr. (500amps/300v).


Figure the cost of batteries for these DC systems. If needing 300v with a minimum 200ah, thats a lot of cells. Anything less that 200ah, you are not going to be happy, especially in the winter time.


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## dtbaker (Jan 5, 2008)

cruisin said:


> Figure the cost of batteries for these DC systems. If needing 300v with a minimum 200ah, thats a lot of cells. Anything less that 200ah, you are not going to be happy, especially in the winter time.



I think I'll have all the fun I can handle in a 2000# car with a Warp9 at 144v or MAYBE 156v and burst amps to 750a. The Warps are rated to 156v and would probably handle up to 170v. I do not plan to get larger than 100ah cells, I really don't need more than 50 mile range for the build. I would get the 100ah cells just so I could maintain speed with less than a 200amp draw (2C) at highway speed when needed.

so yeah, the Soliton Jr is looking like 'enough' for pretty high performance in a little car for urban/suburban use. Balancing performance, cost, size, and weight..... with an eye toward modern guts, and active sales/support.


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## drgrieve (Apr 14, 2011)

The Soliton Jr from what I've read is 500 amp continuous, 600 amps peak. 

This is a good match for a 100 amp cell that can do 5 to 6 C. (I've seen Jack Rickard test them to 5.5 C.) 

The newer Warp 9 with better brushes is supposed to go up to 192v but I haven't seen this tested anywhere.

In addition when sizing the battery pack, allow for 20% voltage sag at 5C. So if you want to run at 156v you need a 187v pack and use the controller to limit motor volts.

When you crunch the numbers very few builds can fit in enough large format batteries to challenge the controllers or the motors unless you go to the more exotic high c batteries.


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## Guest (Aug 3, 2011)

david85 said:


> Am I to understand the synkromotive controller is continuous rated at 750 amps (assuming the battery can support it)?


No, Peak. The new one I believe will do 850. Mine has been upgraded to do 800 peak. For any of the driving I have done you never stay on that peak anyway but for a moment. The Synkro is light weight and robust. It has many functions and I have never been able to over heat the thing in the summer under full out conditions. I tried when it was on my Ghia and again with 120 volts in the MG. I just could not kill it. Synkro is done with the beta program and has been on the market for some time. It is being upgraded and refined but I don't see much refinement that can be done. It is air cooled with no provision for water cooling. It can be mounted just about anywhere. It has built in pre-charge and you do need to provide your own contactor and fuse and circuit breaker. It is robust enough for most street cars and it is designed for the street and not the track. It will however provide 156 volts and 800 amps of power for mine and the new ones I believe are now up to 180 volts and 800 or 850 amps peak. The new one has a larger cooling fan that pumps more air. So far all testing of that has gone with out a hitch. 

Pete 

There is more to come with the Synkro. I just wish it was coming faster. I love my little light weight powerhouse.


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## lowcrawler (Jun 27, 2011)

cruisin said:


> Figure the cost of batteries for these DC systems. If needing 300v with a minimum 200ah, thats a lot of cells. Anything less that 200ah, you are not going to be happy, especially in the winter time.


It seems as if tons of people (all?) have less than 60kWh packs and do just fine. 300V is the max for the soliton, and I'm not sure where you pulled the 200ah number from. From my research, I expect plenty of mileage, life, and performance from a 100ah ~150V system -- and actually would have more than met my needs with a 60ah 120V system.


I DO love the idea of the synkromotive - especially the cheaper and lighter aspects. However, the proven track record from multiple people steers me to the Soliton Jr (which is, admittedly, overkill as it is). I almost wish I was making this choice 6 months from now when the synkromotive has had a little more time to hit the market full-force.


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

gottdi said:


> No, Peak. The new one I believe will do 850. Mine has been upgraded to do 800 peak. For any of the driving I have done you never stay on that peak anyway but for a moment. The Synkro is light weight and robust. It has many functions and I have never been able to over heat the thing in the summer under full out conditions. I tried when it was on my Ghia and again with 120 volts in the MG. I just could not kill it. Synkro is done with the beta program and has been on the market for some time. It is being upgraded and refined but I don't see much refinement that can be done. It is air cooled with no provision for water cooling. It can be mounted just about anywhere. It has built in pre-charge and you do need to provide your own contactor and fuse and circuit breaker. It is robust enough for most street cars and it is designed for the street and not the track. It will however provide 156 volts and 800 amps of power for mine and the new ones I believe are now up to 180 volts and 800 or 850 amps peak. The new one has a larger cooling fan that pumps more air. So far all testing of that has gone with out a hitch.
> 
> Pete
> 
> There is more to come with the Synkro. I just wish it was coming faster. I love my little light weight powerhouse.


Thanks Pete, I heard you were one of the testers.

I looked on their website and it seems to be a good setup. Only thing I wonder about is the 1 month warranty. Is that my misunderstanding?

EDIT: also wondering what the actual weight of the soliton Jr is?


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## Guest (Aug 3, 2011)

david85 said:


> Thanks Pete, I heard you were one of the testers.
> 
> I looked on their website and it seems to be a good setup. Only thing I wonder about is the 1 month warranty. Is that my misunderstanding?
> 
> EDIT: also wondering what the actual weight of the soliton Jr is?


I don't know about that warranty. I guess you can email them and ask? What is the warranty for the soliton1 and Jr? I never bothered to look myself. Do you know?


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## Guest (Aug 3, 2011)

lowcrawler said:


> It seems as if tons of people (all?) have less than 60kWh packs and do just fine. 300V is the max for the soliton, and I'm not sure where you pulled the 200ah number from. From my research, I expect plenty of mileage, life, and performance from a 100ah ~150V system -- and actually would have more than met my needs with a 60ah 120V system.
> 
> 
> I DO love the idea of the synkromotive - especially the cheaper and lighter aspects. However, the proven track record from multiple people steers me to the Soliton Jr (which is, admittedly, overkill as it is). I almost wish I was making this choice 6 months from now when the synkromotive has had a little more time to hit the market full-force.


Well even with 156 volts you should still have more than 140 AH cells. I use 100 AH cells and they do sag quite a bit under heavy load and going up to 156 won't change that much. I agree that 180 or 200 AH should be the minimum size of the cells used. I guarantee you will hammer your EV because it will be so much fun. Guaranteed and you don't want to over stress your cells. I stress the Hi-Power cells I have. I now TS or CALB will handle much higher consistent current draw than mine but even with that the higher the AH rating of the cell the easier it will be on the cell under heavy loads. So 150 volts and 60AH cells really will be a huge stress on the cells. Also its a tiny pack. Not much distance with that. A 9.3 KW pack is tiny. I was using a 12 kw pack and getting a good 35 miles at freeway speeds. Double the AH and I get 24 Kw and would get 70 real world miles. Like my Leaf. So your 9Kw pack will be lame. Well I'd bet that there are more Synkromotive users than Soliton1 JR controllers. Synkro has been out much longer too. They have the Soliton1 to thank for dependability. Synkro is proven but not many here on this list have them. I do and I now of a few but they don't post much. I know that there were like 30 Beta testers and all have their production models and some even have purchased the upgraded controller. I hope to have more to show with the Synkro that will be a game changer. It is out of my hands but it is a real deal. Just taking time as there are many things that they are doing with the controller and company. Once I have what I need I will be doing a video on the controller. I hope to have the Buggy up and running for that video because we will be doing 156 volts and 100AH lithium cells and my huge 11" Kostov motor. Not for racing mind you but for street performance where most cars will be driven. I am looking into getting a computer for the dash so we can do full computer monitoring of the controller. 

Pete


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## Guest (Aug 3, 2011)

Looked for a warranty on the Curtis and did not fine one. Soliton1 is limited warranty of 12 months. I can't imagine many other electronic equipment warranties being much more than 30 days. But I'd like to see at least 1 year for the controllers. It may change but the largest problem is not being able to control the installation of the product. That is risky business to offer a long warranty with no control of installation. I know that that folks just don't know their ...... from a hole in the wall and can ruin equipment by hooking it up wrong even with correct instructions. The company should not be liable for that kind of screwup. 30 days is fine with me. I just know I need to know exactly what I am doing and follow the install to a T. 

Pete


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## EVfun (Mar 14, 2010)

Oh come on Pete, that's a huge pack. 

Honestly, I would recommend at least 40, 100 amp hour cells. That would provide a little more power than stock at 500 amps (5C) full tilt. JR has been taking his cells there without issues so far and has put some miles on his cells.

I'm playing a bit with the Buggy, seeing how Thunder Sky cells respond to a regular beatings. My pack is only 32, 60 amp hour cells (6.1 kWh.) 6C is only 360 amps with these small cells and that is what I have the Zilla programed to pull from the pack (720 peak motor amps.) They seem fine with the workouts so far. With a low pack and heavy right foot I got down to 89.8 volts once. My little pack gives the buggy about 36 horsepower. That's spunky in a 1100 lb. buggy, but less fun in a 1800 lb. Beetle.


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## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

gottdi said:


> They have the Soliton1 to thank for dependability.


Please explain how Synkromotive used the Soliton1 to improve *their* dependability? I am understandably intrigued as to what this comment means, exactly...

BTW - did Synkromotive iron out the problems they were having from outsourcing their manufacturing to China, or did they make the smart move to bring everything back stateside?


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## lowcrawler (Jun 27, 2011)

gottdi said:


> I guarantee you will hammer your EV because it will be so much fun.


My previous car had over 350 ft/lbs of torque and roughly equal HP. Once I got out of my teens, I've probably floored it twice in 10 years.

For me, now-a-days, a car is a point-a-to-b thing. Plus, with 12C bursting, I don't think I'll pull 1200 amps (or 800 if I had a 60A pack) for more than 15 seconds. 



> ...you don't want to over stress your cells.


 AGreed, and that's why I'm going to 100AH @ ~150V instead of 60AH @ ~120V... even though I don't need the extra range.



> Not much distance with that. A 9.3 KW pack is tiny. I was using a 12 kw pack and getting a good 35 miles at freeway speeds. Double the AH and I get 24 Kw and would get 70 real world miles.


 Which matters considerably less if you don't need much more than a 1/10 of that range. heh.



> So your 9Kw pack will be lame.


I've taken your advice and will put as much lithium as I can into one pack behind the back seat -- which I've measured out at 15kWh. If I want more at some point in the future, I'll build an equal-sized pack and put it under the trunk and parallel them.



> I am looking into getting a computer for the dash so we can do full computer monitoring of the controller.


That will be very interesting. Looking forward to seeing it done. I was looking at the visor-mounted screens myself.


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## lowcrawler (Jun 27, 2011)

I have access to high-amp 12VDC power supplies, so I asked Ives to talk more about the charging aspects (after having been 'shot down' by Tesseract I kind of gave up on that idea).

This is what Ives got back to me with:



> A typical 12v source would not charge your pack very quickly. However common 1.5kw 48v or even 24v high current sources are practical. In these instances all you need to add is one standard contactor to disengage your motor and one appropriately rated relay to engage your power supply. The Synkromotive’s built in software handles the rest.
> 
> The DC750’s 200 volt rating is conservative. The DC750 uses 300v rated components. The unique software in the controller allows PFC efficiency levels at up to 5000 watts when direct charging a 185 volt nominal pack from a properly wired NEMA 14-50R outlet. Synkromotive has a patent on this technique that would legally prevent other controller manufacturers from copying this feature. The US patent office is designed to reward innovation not imitation.
> 
> ...


So it _sounds_ like a high-amp 48V power supply connected with a few relays could, indeed, turn the Synkromotive into a charger. Unfortunately, the type of power supply Ives claims is common is:
- tough to find (http://www.cotsjournalonline.com/articles/view/101502)
- not meant for a car/vibration enviroment (http://www.recycledgoods.com/produc...210-65900-Onyx-10000-Server-Power-Supply.html)
- requires a 220 plug
- or costs 600+ dollars. 

Though I did find one interesting one for 400... but I'm not sure I want to risk my multi-thousand dollar lithium pack on some ebay jury-rigged charge system.

Sadly, I can get a true charger for the price of just power supply here alone. To bad, I felt that would have been an extremely elegant solution. Ives actually followed up with me to check if I had any further questions -- seems like a nice guy with a good product.


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

lowcrawler,

I'm not sure if Ives is monitoring this thread or not, but feel free to extend an invitation for him to post directly here if he wants to.

It seems only fair that we offer him the chance to answer these questions directly (if he wants to) since the creators of the soliton are here too and we are discussing his creation. Although if he is comfortable with you posting his words in this manner, thats fine too. Just thought I'd make the offer anyway.

Our problem with vendors in the past has mainly been when they try to hijack a thread or repeatedly make identical sales pitches across many different threads that may or may not have been directly related to the original topic. But for simply offering information on a new product like this when the topic is already about them to begin with - I see no problem with that. If it really becomes an issue, the thread can be moved to the vendor's section.



One more general question I have about the soliton jr is what the weight is since thats been mentioned as an advantage the synkro has (very impressive actually). Specs can be found for the S1, but I haven't been able to locate anything for the SJ. Tesseract, can perhaps you post that?


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## lowcrawler (Jun 27, 2011)

david85 said:


> lowcrawler,
> 
> I'm not sure if Ives is monitoring this thread or not, but feel free to extend an invitation for him to post directly here if he wants to.


Did once. Will again.

I like both products - and when it comes down to it the cost differential is minimal after you add in the contactor and extra work required mounting/etc.


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## Guest (Aug 4, 2011)

I did not post that before because I am waiting for some information and parts to build a DC Fast charge setup that anyone can do. I am planning on doing a video presentation on the subject and was hoping no one else would let the cat out before it's ready. My suggestion is to put the cat back in the bag so when we are ready we will bring it out to the public properly and cleanly. DC power supplies will work. I will be showing it with both the DC power supply and with a DC Battery bank. But for now put the cat back in the bag. It is not ready yet to be posting. They also did their Beta testing behind the scenes too. 

Patience Grasshopper, Patience.


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## lowcrawler (Jun 27, 2011)

Patience is one thing... waiting an undetermined amount of time for a 'maybe' is completely another. hehe.

Any idea on a timeline? Turns out the synkromotive can output amps/voltages to analog gages ... though that's not documented anywhere. I wonder what other features (features that sway buyers) are being kept behind curtains. It's tough to buy into a 'mysterious black box'.


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## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

> Synkromotive will be offering a pre-wired charge kit with GFI in the near future.


The Soliton1 has had the ability to do this since day 1, but we never bothered implementing it, and certainly didn't bother to patent it, for two reasons:

1. When you factor in all the contactors needed to use the motor's field as the boost inductor and to reroute power connections, the restrictions on battery pack voltage, and, worst of all, the need to have everything "UL approved" if connected to the AC mains, this idea is more or less impractical.

2. AC Propulsion already holds a patent on using one of the three stator windings in an induction motor as the boost inductor for charging, and that seems a bit too similar to using the field winding of a DC motor for the same purpose.

I'd rather not debate with my competitors, and especially not by proxy through another forum member. Whether either of our controllers is a better fit for your application/budget/aesthetic preference/Chinese horoscope/whatever is up to you. I would be very curious to hear your reasoning for whatever choice you make, however, and can easily promise I'll be non-judgmental and magnanimous about it should you be so deranged as to not choose the Soliton Jr 




david85 said:


> One more general question I have about the soliton jr is what the weight is since thats been mentioned as an advantage the synkro has (very impressive actually). Specs can be found for the S1, but I haven't been able to locate anything for the SJ. Tesseract, can perhaps you post that?


Yeah, David, there's nothing about the Junior on our website, and said website, we are well aware, sucks...  The good news is that Qer has finally given in to the pressure and is redoing our website for us (btw - thanks to the people who offered to do the same); the bad news is that Qer has just tossed away a good chunk of his annual vacation (not that I have much sympathy for him, seeing as I haven't had a vacation since 2006 and he gets 5 weeks of it every year...)

Anyway, the Junior weighs 15 lbs.


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## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

lowcrawler said:


> Turns out the synkromotive can output amps/voltages to analog gages ...


Hmmm... that's a feature we've had since the beginning, too. Attached is a cropped screenshot from the web interface page showing all of the current selections for the programmable outputs.


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## dtbaker (Jan 5, 2008)

Tesseract said:


> Hmmm... that's a feature we've had since the beginning, too. Attached is a cropped screenshot from the web interface page showing all of the current selections for the programmable outputs.



how does the controller know the rpm? is it a pass-thru from the input side?


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## Guest (Aug 4, 2011)

lowcrawler said:


> Patience is one thing... waiting an undetermined amount of time for a 'maybe' is completely another. hehe.
> 
> Any idea on a timeline? Turns out the synkromotive can output amps/voltages to analog gages ... though that's not documented anywhere. I wonder what other features (features that sway buyers) are being kept behind curtains. It's tough to buy into a 'mysterious black box'.


Patience Grasshopper. The controller is just fine and even a contender in the current market without those features. See what happens when you let the cat out early. You get instant speculation and bull shit. 

Does it have to be documented that the controller will do specific things at this time? Should it be? It might be helpful. But surly not a requirement. 

Patience and if you can't be then go get the other. 

Pete


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## Qer (May 7, 2008)

dtbaker said:


> how does the controller know the rpm? is it a pass-thru from the input side?


Yeah, sort of. You connect an rpm-sensor to the controller input and can connect a tachometer gauge to one of the outputs. You can have different ppt's on in- and output, for example you can use a sensor with 1 ppt on the input and connect a gauge with 2 ppt and the controller will convert the signal for you.


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## rwaudio (May 22, 2008)

Qer said:


> Yeah, sort of. You connect an rpm-sensor to the controller input and can connect a tachometer gauge to one of the outputs. You can have different ppt's on in- and output, for example you can use a sensor with 1 ppt on the input and connect a gauge with 2 ppt and the controller will convert the signal for you.


I have to say that is a handy feature, I'm using a sensor with 4ppt and just set the controller to output 2ppt to run my tach.


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## dtbaker (Jan 5, 2008)

Qer said:


> Yeah, sort of. You connect an rpm-sensor to the controller input and can connect a tachometer gauge to one of the outputs. You can have different ppt's on in- and output, for example you can use a sensor with 1 ppt on the input and connect a gauge with 2 ppt and the controller will convert the signal for you.



aha... this sounds very interesting. My project after next is a 49 yr old car with a questionable mechanical tach. I may be replacing ALL the instrumentation (since oil pressure and water temp will be irrelevant) and hope to find a nice matching set of 'vintage LOOKING' stuff to fill the holes in the dash. It would be nice to have reliable new speedo and tach, and it would be fun to have vintage analog gauges for both motor and battery amps in addition to the EVdisplay counting amp-hrs or displaying SOC off to the side. 

I'd love to figure out how to calibrate an amp-hr counter to a regular fuel gauge. I dunno what voltage range mine uses yet... Seems like if the controller can track battery amp-hrs in and out, it might be possible to program a calibrated voltage output direct to gauges. hhhmmm, except amp-hrs IN from charger are probably not going thru controller.


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## EVfun (Mar 14, 2010)

You have a couple of choices Dan. This from Clean Power auto can run a fuel gauge in addition to being a fuel gauge. From EVworks in Australia you have 2 choices, the last 2 items on this page.


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## dtbaker (Jan 5, 2008)

EVfun said:


> You have a couple of choices Dan. This from Clean Power auto can run a fuel gauge in addition to being a fuel gauge. From EVworks in Australia you have 2 choices, the last 2 items on this page.



yeah, I have seen these, and actually got an EVdisplay to use in my next job, but will be using the included LCD display. The price is pretty darn good considering it includes the Hall sensor and display....


BUT what I am angling for is avoiding the cost of the sensor if the 'calibration' could be done in the Controller to output X volts per 100amp-hr to drive a cheap OEM fuel gauge assuming you can find the wires 

I dunno if this capability is IN any controller today, or perhaps its just a suggestion.... if there were an output of a straight voltage that could be connected to the OEM fuel gauge and calibrated using the battery amps and time to correspond to amp-hrs... then some multiplier for the cell capacity. THAT would be cool and save around $200 for an external sensor! I would consider something like this a super 'feature' in comparing controllers.....


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## dimitri (May 16, 2008)

dtbaker said:


> I dunno if this capability is IN any controller today, or perhaps its just a suggestion....


SOC gauge must be always on to track charge current as well as discharge. I don't know of any controllers that stay on while charging, plus charge circuit is not passing thru the controller. While this sounds like a good idea, its not really practical, its just easier to use external SOC gauge.

Also, controllers deal with large currents and probably aren't tuned enough to register small currents, which is important for accurate SOC tracking.


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## coryrc (Aug 5, 2008)

I installed a Synkromotive controller as a replacement/upgrade for a failed Curtis 1231. The car already had a separate contactor for the positive side, so it was easy to wire up.

It worked great. Easy to configure. Not really any more to say.


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## Guest (Aug 5, 2011)

Do you have the newest upgrade? Synkro?


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## lowcrawler (Jun 27, 2011)

gottdi said:


> Does it have to be documented that the controller will do specific things at this time? Should it be?


Yes and Yes.

If a feature is not documented, it might as well not exist.... when it comes to making a pro/con list and deciding what to buy.


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## Guest (Aug 5, 2011)

> .. when it comes to making a pro/con list and deciding what to buy.


I don't disagree. I think a good pro/con list needs to be made. But I am not the manufacturer of the product. It is also one of those things that are available but not yet implemented. I plan on helping change that. They need a better image and they need some good in your face stuff. It is a wonderful controller. Not for racing but for the street where most of the folks drive. Gives plenty of poop for those occasional light to light runs for fun too. Bet you could bust a few gassers with it with no trouble. 

Pete


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## DanGT86 (Jan 1, 2011)

I am a little confused about the datalogger options for the Soliton. I have only seen screenshots from the Android based dataloggers like this. 










Does the soliton datalogger software just plug directly into a laptop and display in real time?

Does anyone have screenshots of the Soliton Datalogger?

The synkromotive user interface looks to be pretty simple and useful. I just wondered how the Soliton software is by comparison. Is it just text on a screen or does it have a dashboard feel like the synkromotive?


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## Qer (May 7, 2008)

DanGT86 said:


> Does the soliton datalogger software just plug directly into a laptop and display in real time?


Yes. Logger (as it's called) is a very simplistic program that comes pre compiled for Windows and Linux and with the source file plus protocol specification included in the release. It's text only, but the main purpose of logger is to save data to a text file so you can analyse it afterwards (that's how I generate those graphs I sometimes publish in the forum  ).

The logging capability was essential when we developed the Soliton since I couldn't be on site and see for myself what happened, so I relied very much on the logging capabilities when we solved problems and bugs. The data sent is binary data over UDP-traffic so anything that is Ethernet capable can receive and process/display the data, for example a smart phone...

So no, there's no dash board program like the Synkromotives. We use a web interface for user settings to make it platform independent (I'm a linux nut so I try to stay clear from Windows as much as I can  ) and since I'm the software engineer and quite busy as it is I've never found the time to do a more fancy logger software. Thus we released the protocol specs instead so anyone can do whatever they like instead. Like that pretty sweet looking Android app!


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## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

DanGT86 said:


> Does the soliton datalogger software just plug directly into a laptop and display in real time?
> 
> Does anyone have screenshots of the Soliton Datalogger?


The datalogging program, Logger, is addressed in much more detail in the new version of the manual (1.4) which I finished writing last week. Once everyone at Evnetics has had their chance to play armchair author/editior I'll post it to the website for download.

That said, Logger displays a single line of data that is continuously updated and stores a much more detailed log entry in a tab-delimited text file (called, unsurprisingly, logger.txt).



DanGT86 said:


> The synkromotive user interface looks to be pretty simple and useful. I just wondered how the Soliton software is by comparison. Is it just text on a screen or does it have a dashboard feel like the synkromotive?


The user interface for the Soliton controllers is a web page and is just for setting operating parameters; it's not something that you'd keep "on screen" at all times. The data-logging function is separate from the UI and, as Qer explains, we made the protocol for it open so that anyone could write their own version of "Logger".


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## kickngas (Feb 3, 2011)

We have been running the Synkromotive controller in our two High School conversions for almost two years in our 96 volt lead acid Ranger and for five months in our 156 volt Lithium powered MR2. We were beta testers and weathered the manufacturing delays and company restructuring that happened over the past two years. Ives has been extremely helpful with company updates and customer support/tech support.
Being a school with zero funding for our program aside from our fundraisers, price was one of our primary criteria when shopping for the controller in our truck. We chose Synkromotive based on our specific design needs, programmability, user interface, data logging and price. We made a great choice. 
Over the past 12 years, and 5 conversions, we have used Zapi(worked well for 5 years until the smoke came out), DCP Raptor(no frills monster), Curtis(no frills, anemic whiner) and now the Synkromotive(smooth, cool, small, bulletproof). I am sure we would be singing the praises of the Zilla or the Soliton if we had gone with either of them, so we will not compare or bash either of those proven and reliable products. We would certainly welcome any offer from any manufacturer to run their product at a reduced rate(like Ives did for us with the beta model).
The support from Synkromotive with firmware releases and current increases, plus the optional fuel gauge driver and charging ability have kept us happy along with the stellar performance of the controller.
The point here was to share our experience, hope it helps. We all know how difficult it is to make decisions without education.


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## lowcrawler (Jun 27, 2011)

Yeah, I wish they documented those features (charing, fuel gauge, etc)


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