# New Zonic Motors - HV Alternative



## pickmeup (May 8, 2018)

Hi All

The guys at Zero-EV in the UK have just released a new series of High Voltage AC motors, I had a good look at them on Saturday at the Fully Charged Show and they look a pretty good package with the AEM VCU included. 
The smaller Zonic 70 for my classic mini application, looks like it could be an ideal choice if I had the budget.

Some details and CAD on the website - the larger motors are compatible with current hyper 9 adaptor plate conversions so could be an option for people wanting to go higher voltage for DC fast charging?

Zonic Motors | Zonic Motors


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## Zayali (8 mo ago)

I saw them too, looking very good and light too! Although from what I heard they will be pricey


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## reiderM (Dec 30, 2020)

Mounting compatibility with hyper9/hpevs ac50 adapter plates is HUGE. Big reason why a lot of people choose the LV kit motors is because they're easy to couple with transmissions.

Interested to hear more about these once they start getting installed into projects.


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## remy_martian (Feb 4, 2019)

pickmeup said:


> Hi All
> 
> The guys at Zero-EV in the UK have just released a new series of High Voltage AC motors, I had a good look at them on Saturday at the Fully Charged Show and they look a pretty good package with the AEM VCU included.
> The smaller Zonic 70 for my classic mini application, looks like it could be an ideal choice if I had the budget.
> ...


You're hard selling. You can DC fast charge without a higher voltage motor. A few contactors to rearrange the pack may be a cheaper way to do it for some people.


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## reiderM (Dec 30, 2020)

DCFC on a LV pack isn't feasible with just some contactor magic on most LV packs. You'd need to have multiple parallel strings of modules/series cells so that you can quickly reconfigure a pack to 360/400v with a few contactors.


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

reiderM said:


> DCFC on a LV pack isn't feasible with just some contactor magic on most LV packs. You'd need to have multiple parallel strings of modules/series cells so that you can quickly reconfigure a pack to 360/400v with a few contactors.


Yes, that's how it's done. GM's Ultium system as used in the GMC Hummer EV can charge at up to 800 V and at up to 400V, by arranging two strings in series or parallel. A really low controller input voltage limit might require three strings. While a viable option, just picking a combination of components such that the pack voltage is suitable for both driving and charging at the most readily available DC charging voltage (~250 to ~400 V) seems like a better idea to me.


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## remy_martian (Feb 4, 2019)

Public CCS DC fast chargers work from 200VDC and up, so no idea where the 400VDC is coming from.

Most Li cells I've seen are arranged at least 2P if not more (50-60 Ah) to get the continuous high current rating needed for a low voltage motor.

Three (at most) stack reconfig contactors, $240. High voltage motors vs forklift rescue...>>$240

So, show ur math & I'll maybe shut up about it.


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

pickmeup said:


> Some details and CAD on the website - the larger motors are compatible with current hyper 9 adaptor plate conversions...


The housing adapter, yes, but these motors appear to have male splined shaft, unlike basic industrial motors and the common aftermarket EV conversion motors.



reiderM said:


> Mounting compatibility with hyper9/hpevs ac50 adapter plates is HUGE. Big reason why a lot of people choose the LV kit motors is because they're easy to couple with transmissions.


I agree that housing adapter plate availability is a valuable feature for those wanting to use the vehicle's original transmission. Unfortunately, I don't see any indication that Zero EV intended to provide any support for coupling the shaft - they don't even specify the spline they're using. Coupling one of these doesn't look any different to me from the notorious Nissan Leaf motor coupling challenge.


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

Zayali said:


> I saw them too, looking very good and light too! Although from what I heard they will be pricey


"Will be" are key words here - they appear to be a promise, rather than a product. Only minimal specifications are provided, and the Contact Us section only supports entering a name and email address to "register interest"; there's no way provided to ask questions.

I wonder if this will turn out like Zero EV's reduction gearbox, which was developed and tested but never became available.

It's entirely possible that none of these motors exist, even in prototype form. They could be just CAD models from a motor supplier that drew up a version with the desired face as a proposal, plus a demo set of units which look plausible enough for shows but could have any internal wiring, and Zero EV could be just testing the waters for the level of interest before investing more than a day of website building. That may seem pretty cynical, but the lack of detailed specs is suspicious.


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## pickmeup (May 8, 2018)

these motors are real, there is some specs on the website now and CAD to download.


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## remy_martian (Feb 4, 2019)

They're shown here:


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

pickmeup said:


> these motors are real, there is some specs on the website now and CAD to download.


Yes, there are CAD files. CAD files are the product of the design process - they exist before the product does, and can exist even if the product is never made. Star Wars fans can probably find CAD files of the Millennium Falcon if they look...

The specs that I saw were far short of sufficient for proper vehicle design, so checked again: same thing - torque and power curves at only one unknown voltage (so no indication of the effect of supply voltage on performance), no current data (to get stated performance or limits), no coolant pressure or flow requirements. Many motors are sold without this sort of information, but serious competent motor manufacturers do much better.

This might be a great product line, if anything more than a display unit is ever produced.


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## Tremelune (Dec 8, 2009)

Without a price, they don't exist.

Fingers crossed, though! I think it's great to have options (particularly smaller ones) in this space...I do wish they'd have tried to "standardize" as much as possible, but hey...

I'd still rather have a bolt-on 2:1 reduction-gear-to-driveshaft-yolk adapter for a Leaf motor, but hey...


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## remy_martian (Feb 4, 2019)

There's a reduction unit that was shown in the Alfa test drive by ECC in Wales (they source a lot of pieces from EV Zero, so I would not be surprised they are the source as well). I sent a query in about it, and got a "we'll let you know in a month." 

Seems to be a British cultural thing...build it, then price it after you assess demand.

I suspect they are using BW cartridges in a 3d printed case for the prototypes and the web models. Dies for castings cost a fortune, so, unless they already have bags of money, they may be trying to line up investors vs it being production ready.


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## mrmrgibbons (6 mo ago)

brian_ said:


> "Will be" are key words here - they appear to be a promise, rather than a product. Only minimal specifications are provided, and the Contact Us section only supports entering a name and email address to "register interest"; there's no way provided to ask questions.
> 
> I wonder if this will turn out like Zero EV's reduction gearbox, which was developed and tested but never became available.
> 
> It's entirely possible that none of these motors exist, even in prototype form. They could be just CAD models from a motor supplier that drew up a version with the desired face as a proposal, plus a demo set of units which look plausible enough for shows but could have any internal wiring, and Zero EV could be just testing the waters for the level of interest before investing more than a day of website building. That may seem pretty cynical, but the lack of detailed specs is suspicious.


I only asked last week. Still wont sell to joe public :-(


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## Mike_Aust (6 mo ago)

Electric Classic Cars have added a Zonic 120 to their VW Syncro conversion. See here and look for time stamp 4 mins 55 seconds. Richard says its a Zonic 120 running at 400 volts 120kw, 280 nm of torque and liquid cooled with motor mounted inverter.


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

Mike_Aust said:


> Electric Classic Cars have added a Zonic 120 to their VW Syncro conversion...


It's good to see that this product actually exists... at least for customers who will provide sufficient social media exposure. I notice that he didn't mention the cost.

Under a front seat they have a VCU, which is identified as a Zonic Motors VCU200Z, with both Zero EV and AEM EV branding... but I can't find this component on the Zero EV, Zonic Motors, or AEM EV websites (although I may just have missed it). It appears to be a Zonic-specific variant of the AEM EV VCU200; I wouldn't count on it being available to a real customer, or count on being able to use a Zonic motor/inverter package without it.


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## Mike_Aust (6 mo ago)

brian_ said:


> It's good to see that this product actually exists... at least for customers who will provide sufficient social media exposure. I notice that he didn't mention the cost.
> 
> Under a front seat they have a VCU, which is identified as a Zonic Motors VCU200Z, with both Zero EV and AEM EV branding... but I can't find this component on the Zero EV, Zonic Motors, or AEM EV websites (although I may just have missed it). It appears to be a Zonic-specific variant of the AEM EV VCU200; I wouldn't count on it being available to a real customer, or count on being able to use a Zonic motor/inverter package without it.


From one of ZeroEV's (Zonic) Facebook posts "*180kw pricing is aimed at £7600 including inverter and VCu*" but they do also say it's all business to business sales only for now, hence ECC using them. I notice that while they are a ZeroEV product they are Chinese made (you can see the writing on the high voltage stickers) I would expect ZeroEV is running some serious quality control over the final product. It does mean there will be warranty on the three items which you don't get so much pulling Leaf motors out.


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## remy_martian (Feb 4, 2019)

You're selling too hard on a lame duck.

Tesla LDUs need a warranty. But they don't sell them to nonowners.

We can buy 15 Leaf motors for the price of one of those Chinesium motors. If the Leaf was to fail after an average of 8 months (more likely 8 years because of Nissan QC), that works out to being a 10 year warranty.

Their price is 3x high, which means they're stacking margins on a Chinese product vs making it themselves. Yeah - it'll go into a $150,000 conversion, no worries. They won't sell many, but if it's a passthru product, meh.

Meanwhile, more interesting to me is their longitudinal gearbox that was in ECC's Alfa.


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## Mike_Aust (6 mo ago)

I still think the Leaf is the more accessible option for sure and the output is very close. ZeroEv/Zonic have also said they have a larger motor/higher output option coming 'sometime' but they didn't say anything about details. And yes, their reduction box seems better that the Torque Trends option which ECC says are noisy (straight cut gears) and prone to running hot. And the Leaf can actually be bought by non-business end users so it the winner.


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

Mike_Aust said:


> From one of ZeroEV's (Zonic) Facebook posts "*180kw pricing is aimed at £7600 including inverter and VCu*" but they do also say it's all business to business sales only for now, hence ECC using them. I notice that while they are a ZeroEV product they are Chinese made (you can see the writing on the high voltage stickers) I would expect ZeroEV is running some serious quality control over the final product. It does mean there will be warranty on the three items which you don't get so much pulling Leaf motors out.


I think it's unreasonable for companies to expect potential customers to follow all of the social media feeds of all possible suppliers in the hope that they might stumble across tidbits of information that those companies should have just clearly posted on their websites... but I appreciate people like Mike doing this for us and sharing what they find. 

The cost seems perhaps high for what the product is, but it might be a good value with the VCU and if it works as a coordinated system with good documentation and support it would be worthwhile for many builders.

As long as it is only available through conversion companies it is both unavailable for DIY builds and irrelevant to most enthusiasts because those conversions are wildly expensive.

It shouldn't be a surprise to anyone that Zero EV doesn't actually make the motor itself, and it presumably doesn't make the integrated inverter either. I wouldn't be surprised if the motor was just picked from available models for house-branding. I don't have a problem with this if they provide that quality control, and a suitable warranty, and technical support. The Netgain HyPer 9 system is similarly a re-branded Dana TM4 product (originally from an Italian company purchased by Dana TM4), probably made in China too.


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## ADK46 (2 mo ago)

LegacyEV has replaced the dual Hyper9 in their Level 3.1 "kit" with the Zonic 180. This is what they believe would be a good choice for my Jaguar Mark 10 project, though gear reduction of some kind is likely required. I must crunch some numbers about this, and check if the 120 model might satisfy my needs (and fit in the transmission tunnel).

Thoughts?


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## D&VsEVJeep (Dec 9, 2021)

I heard that sales for the dual Hyper9 is suspended at the moment due to issues with getting a specific bearing right now... Maybe this is why LegacyEV made the switch?


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## ADK46 (2 mo ago)

Yes, although a Netgain guy told me they’re still looking for a new bearing. Puzzling, since bearings are mostly standard items. Gotta worry about eddy currents, so might be ceramic.


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## remy_martian (Feb 4, 2019)

So is an $0.85 microprocessor, but delivery date is 2024. The Chinese have hoarded EVERYTHING available to block the US from repatriating manufacturing onshore. It's the only explanation, and Chinese brokers will sell you that micro for $100.

/removes tinfoil hat


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## remy_martian (Feb 4, 2019)

They aren't technically eddy currents, since eddy currents are localized and circle field lines. They are stray induction currents in the motor shaft.


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## ADK46 (2 mo ago)

The guy said “SKF discontinued the bearing”, for whatever that may mean. They’ve tested alternatives; no good. Netgain does not manufacture the motors, of course, so not sure what that means, either.


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## piotrsko (Dec 9, 2007)

Does Skf indicate that it has NOS in any of the warehouses? Used to be they had ID/Od substitutes for just about everything.

F A G ( hmmm got censored here) german bearings ditto. and finally Motion Direct warehouses. Should he a fairly common bearing size, but sometimes engineering gets goofy.


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## ADK46 (2 mo ago)

The full information I rec'd from Netgain:

_Re: encode bearing discontinued - SKF discontinued the bearing and we did not receive any prior warning that would have allowed us to stock up on them. A few other bearings have been tested, but did not pass the tests. We are still looking, but it has been a real blow to lose teh SKF bearing. Now that supply chain is reopening we are hopeful that SKF or a replacement will be found.

Re: dual motors - some of our Authorized Dealers are providing side-by-side solutions and the HyPer 12 is currently in BETA testing.

George F. Hamstra_


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

ADK46 said:


> The full information I rec'd from Netgain:
> ...
> _Re: dual motors - some of our Authorized Dealers are providing side-by-side solutions and the HyPer 12 is currently in BETA testing._


It is possible that NetGain is getting a motor from another supplier for this larger size, but if it is another Dana TM4 product it might be the SRI 300.

In this low power range, for which a single motor is entirely reasonable, dual motors seem far more complicated than necessary.


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## Jeep Man (Sep 21, 2021)

I'm putting the Hyper9-HVIS in my Jeep CJ-7 conversation but can't wait to see the full Zonic info (more then what's on their site...).

Does Legacy or Zero have a published price for the Zonic 120 yet?

Anybody know what that might be?


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

Jeep Man said:


> Does Legacy or Zero have a published price for the Zonic 120 yet?
> 
> Anybody know what that might be?


It's not even certain that these motors exist in production, let alone what the price might be. I suggest contacting Zero EV directly (e-mail, even phone) to hear the excuses about why there is no price.


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## Jeep Man (Sep 21, 2021)

brian_ said:


> It's not even certain that these motors exist in production, let alone what the price might be. I suggest contacting Zero EV directly (e-mail, even phone) to hear the excuses about why there is no price.


I think I'll refrain from any pugilistic actions - I was just wondering if anybody heard of the price yet.

I know the Legacy folks pretty well - all great people - they just can't say yet. Haven't reached out to the Zero folks yet, they're in a different country so a call isn't worth it yet.

Just asking.


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## Tomdb (Jan 28, 2013)

EV Europe list the biggest one now.



https://eveurope.eu/en/product/zonic-180-kw-high-voltage-propulsion/


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## Jeep Man (Sep 21, 2021)

Tomdb said:


> EV Europe list the biggest one now.
> 
> 
> 
> https://eveurope.eu/en/product/zonic-180-kw-high-voltage-propulsion/


VERY cool - thanks for that!

So, maybe the 120 will fall in around $9k (with Euro and USD close to parity right now...).

So interesting. About double the Hyper9HV-IS - not horrible.

Thanks!


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

Jeep Man said:


> I think I'll refrain from any pugilistic actions - I was just wondering if anybody heard of the price yet.


I'm not suggesting a fight - just ask them. Since they likely won't have a price, you'll probably just get excuses... but they might have a price, and if not the excuses might be informative.


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## ADK46 (2 mo ago)

I'm quite interested in the Zonic 120. I'd like a cylindrical drive unit to install in my big Jaguar's transmission tunnel that would reach the existing drive shaft (with Torque Trend reduction gear). I'm just finishing up a calculator I'll be putting online that ought to be generally useful. Among other things, it estimates a 0-60 time of 10.3 seconds - good enough for a classic saloon. I'd like to persuade Legacy EV to make a kit with it.


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

ADK46 said:


> I'm quite interested in the Zonic 120. I'd like a cylindrical drive unit to install in my big Jaguar's transmission tunnel that would reach the existing drive shaft (with Torque Trend reduction gear). I'm just finishing up a calculator I'll be putting online that ought to be generally useful. Among other things, it estimates a 0-60 time of 10.3 seconds - good enough for a classic saloon. I'd like to persuade Legacy EV to make a kit with it.


This is a two-ton car, so I would be cautious about believing the calculated performance with only 120 kW (peak), especially since it doesn't even reach 120 kW until about 4,000 RPM, so if the gearing has the motor reaching 12,000 RPM at 90 MPH (for example), it won't reach peak power until 30 MPH and so much of the acceleration will be slower than the peak power would suggest. But if works that well, great.


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## ADK46 (2 mo ago)

I can go into depth on this question (the answer surprised me, too), but better I present the calculator in a dedicated thread, where I can ask for comments and answer questions. I've been modeling things for a long time, including something very similar for cyclists that I've had on the web for over 20 years - see bikecalculator.com for a taste. 

The torque and acceleration business are new to the EV calculator, however, so it's possible I've done something stupid (again). But I am encouraged that it came out about the same as the original XK engine would do, which had more horsepower, yes, but less torque. What about the transmission, you ask? Well, ah, it's ... hmm, I'll have to get back to you on that.


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## ADK46 (2 mo ago)

I just asked Legacy EV if they could provide a kit with a Zonic 120 and the answer was "certainly". They have "several" in stock. 

If I go that route, I shall call it a Zonic XK 120. [Inside joke for Jaguar aficionados.]


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

Since the Zonic site doesn't even provide a way to ask about pricing, I sent a query to Zero EV... no response, not even a "go away individual customer, we only deal with corporations" auto-response. It appears that they don't care if they sell any of them.



ADK46 said:


> I just asked Legacy EV if they could provide a kit with a Zonic 120 and the answer was "certainly". They have "several" in stock.


If they have them, they must know what they cost. What's the pricing?



ADK46 said:


> If I go that route, I shall call it a Zonic XK 120. [Inside joke for Jaguar aficionados.]


🙂


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## ADK46 (2 mo ago)

brian_ said:


> If they have them, they must know what they cost. What's the pricing?


They're working up a quote on a "kit" for me, everything needed to spin the wheels. I really need to start a project thread....


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

ADK46 said:


> They're working up a quote on a "kit" for me, everything needed to spin the wheels. I really need to start a project thread....


I wonder if they don't know what the kit will need, or don't really have the components? Both seem likely to me. If they know what to include and have the items, then the pricing is known... no long process of working up a quote needed.


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## Swing (Apr 25, 2021)

@brian_ I agree that they should come forward with pricing. At least EV Europe put a price on the 180kW variant.

But other than that, is there any reason to be negative? I like the concept a lot. Especially since in many applications one Hyper9 motor isn't enough and a Zonic 180 is a much more elegant solution, and much lighter. 2x Hyper9 feels silly in terms of weight and size.

However, the Zonic takes a little longer to get up to its power so it may require a different approach to gearing.

But I think it is great to have the conversion concept of a Hyper9 with available adapter plate, but then with higher power levels and voltage ranges suitable for fast charging. All while being lighter.

At least the motor is 50kg for the 180kw and 45kg for the 120kW version.
I am wondering what the weight is for the 70kw version.

I would worry about high rpm on existing gearboxes, so it might be preferable with a reduction gearbox straight to shaft that goes to an axle, for RWD and 4x4 applications. Not really using the B face as an advantage.


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## remy_martian (Feb 4, 2019)

Min voltage on public chargers is 200V, so if you have a Hyper9 or other 144V system as, for example, a 32s4p battery, with a few contactors you can throw it into a 64s2p during the vehicle charge sequence.

Going to higher voltage motors for charging does not make sense, for example, if you have a forklift or Hyper9 motor direct driving the RWD driveshaft or even 4WD transfer case.

Nothing is free, but there are options.


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

Swing said:


> @brian_ I agree that they should come forward with pricing. At least EV Europe put a price on the 180kW variant.
> 
> But other than that, is there any reason to be negative? I like the concept a lot.


I have no issue with the concept of the product, only the way it is sold.



Swing said:


> I am wondering what the weight is for the 70kw version.


And there's the problem. Why would you have to wonder about the specifications of a retail production product? Perhaps because it isn't really in production, or at least not really available to a retail customer, and the "maker" or "seller" are just wasting your time and effort.


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## Swing (Apr 25, 2021)

@remy_martian Yes you can do it that way, but are there BMSses and charge controllers that support that? Or do you need to make it yourself?
It is quite annoying that Hyper9 is always under 200v and public chargers always above. Although some chargers start at 150v so it may work half the time.
For me in the Netherlands I am somewhat restricted in products that are R10 certified, including BMS. That is all about getting the conversion registered, nothing about the technical side.

If you want to build something with high speed fast charging I would like it to be good from the beginning. Switching with contacters is possible but doesnt seem very attractive, just like 2 Hyper9s back to back work, but feel a bit clumsy to me.

What the Hyper9 has going for it is that it is much closer to ICE than other electric motors.

But yeah, I like the idea of fitting a Zonic to a transfercase, so you still have some choice, but you lose the gearbox and the weight of the second Hyper9 (in case of a Zonic 120 / 180 to get more power than 1 hyper9)


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## remy_martian (Feb 4, 2019)

There's no such thing as "high speed fast charging" in 99.99% of DIY.

There's public station DC charging. The stations are rated at 350kW at 1000V, so 350 amps if you're mighty lucky that day. Most of us are happy at 15A (240V), tickled with 32A, and envious about 80A 240V Tesla charging until you realize a LOT of power is burned off in cooling high charge rates.

So, you have a 144V EV...all you get is 350A charging and likely need active thermal management to charge at that rate on a public charger. Double that voltage and your charge rate doubles, at the expense of heating the battery up with double the power losses.

400V? Even worse battery thermal problem (almost 3x) charging at 350A in terms of TM. Then 800V needs 2x the 400V ability to remove battery heat.

I seriously doubt anybody here has the *need* to charge at more than 7kW - it's nothing but tiny-weiner specsmanship, imo. Apartment/condo dwellers do need fast chargers. If you did a DIY EV conversion, you own a garage, with plugs including a 50A welder plug, that you plug into every day.

And you're a thrill-seeking fool if you take a DIY car outside your insurance/AAA towing distance, imnho.


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## Swing (Apr 25, 2021)

@brian_ Well the motor does exist, this is a YouTube video from 1 year ago with the Zonic 120, no idea where they got it from.





And in this video some prices are named, at fully charged fair:


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## Swing (Apr 25, 2021)

@remy_martian I don't agree with everything. Yes twice the speed is twice the heat. But if you use battery modules with integrated cooling circuits I don't see why you wouldn't get it to work, and you could use bigger radiators than the original EV did using those battery modules.

While I do agree that you typically don't need fast charging, you cannot decide for what purpose someone is building an EV. I hardly use fast charging on my daily driver Bolt/Ampera-E.
Right now I want to build a short wheelbase 4x4 and yes I think it is much easier to skip the fastcharging. It isn't really in the use case of the car.
So it will be a simple car, short range but just as heavy as the diesel version, and hopefully no liquid cooling on motor or pack, because that isn't in the use case.

However, if I were to build the long wheelbase version, it is a very different story.
I need more power and there is more capacity for batteries and these vehicles are much more often used for travelling. And count me in.
I used that car as a diesel to overland through Asia.
You can count on it that I want to give it some range and fast charging. And one Hyper9 won't be enough. It would be built using NMC modules with integrated cooling. And it seems way more logical to use a Zonic 180 for that than two Hyper9s which are heavy and bulky.
I need the cooling anyway for if you are pushing it for longer times, so why not fast charging?
Makes much more sense to build something with much higher system voltage.
And yes that conversion would be 3 times as complex and also 3 times as expensive probably  but it would serve its purpose.


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## remy_martian (Feb 4, 2019)

What do you mean by integrated cooling circuits?

Fast charging requires high BTU active cooling - no amount of "bigger radiators" will help you there.


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## Swing (Apr 25, 2021)

@remy_martian Modules that have a cooling plate in the bottom ready with liquid connections.

I don't expect it to achieve high rates of charging in all conditions, there will be lots of throthling on temperature.

But can't you see that if you want fastcharging and something like 150kw or more that it is just silly to build something with a system voltage which is outside the range of fast chargers (requiring contactor switching) and using a motor which is not powerful enough so you need two of them, which makes it large and heavy (150kg)

To me that is just a strange decision and the Zonic makes more sense, even though the rpm is quite different.

Anyway, I think it will take a while for me to build something with fast charging. The first build I will probably use a Hyper9 and no fast charging at all, and it is a strategy which is absolutely fine for its purpose.


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

Swing said:


> It is quite annoying that Hyper9 is always under 200v and public chargers always above.


That's deliberate... I don't mean mismatching public DC charging voltage, but that the HyPer 9 voltage is deliberately low, because it is configured for the industrial and traditional EV conversion market that used lead-acid batteries. These vehicles would generally not be able to use a public charger, so compatibility with standards for DC charging doesn't matter for them.


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

Swing said:


> Modules that have a cooling plate in the bottom ready with liquid connections.


I haven't heard of any module with a cooling plate built-in on the bottom in commercial production. Tesla modules have cooling channels snaking between rows of cells, the LG modules in the Chevrolet Volt and some others have cooling plates in the stack alternating with pouch cells, and most pouch cell modules are clamped down to separate cooling plates. All of these designs work well enough to handle rapid charging, but the LG system in the Volt is probably most effective.


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## Swing (Apr 25, 2021)

@brian_ Yes agreed the Hyper9s basically come from the 48v 96v lead acid setup background and are still usable like that.

About cooling, you can get these CATL NMC modules with 26s and 16s and they come with cooling in the bottom. Tesla is indeed not a plate but the snake setup.
It is true that most of the modules are actually built for being attached to a cooling plate, which you could reuse, make something yourself, or there are aftermarket solutions (for several LG options)
Anyway, in the OEM EVs they are built that way to get rid of the heat while charging, so I don't see an issue in rebuilding that. With much greater margins and not getting the het high charge rates that the OEMs do. They often do something like 2C and I would be happy to do achieve 1C for a longer time or with a bit of rapidgating, lowering the rates.
Travelling with a big 4x4 and AC charging is probably not going to do it. So even if you can only charge at 50kW it would be very helpful


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

Swing said:


> About cooling, you can get these CATL NMC modules with 26s and 16s and they come with cooling in the bottom. Tesla is indeed not a plate but the snake setup.


So for these modules:
CATL 26S – 18 kWh – 94 Volt NMC Lithium Battery module (listed at a retail website)
this photo








shows a thermal management plate which is built onto the bottom of the module? Interesting, and a nice feature.


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

Swing said:


> Anyway, in the OEM EVs they are built that way to get rid of the heat while charging, so I don't see an issue in rebuilding that. With much greater margins and not getting the het high charge rates that the OEMs do. They often do something like 2C and I would be happy to do achieve 1C for a longer time or with a bit of rapidgating, lowering the rates.
> Travelling with a big 4x4 and AC charging is probably not going to do it. So even if you can only charge at 50kW it would be very helpful


I agree - any of the OEM active cooling solutions works for reasonably fast charging. Even a Leaf without active cooling can charge at more than 1C.


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## remy_martian (Feb 4, 2019)

€200/kWh is awfully spendy. You can buy a brand new Bolt EV *pack* for that kind of money...


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## Swing (Apr 25, 2021)

brian_ said:


> So for these modules:
> CATL 26S – 18 kWh – 94 Volt NMC Lithium Battery module (listed at a retail website)
> this photo
> 
> ...


Yes.

And this 26s gets split as well, losing the cooling plate but getting you a 12s and a perfect 14s for 48v applications, which I used already, without cooling.

But anyway all these NMC EV modules typically have a flat bottom made for cooling.



remy_martian said:


> €200/kWh is awfully spendy. You can buy a brand new Bolt EV *pack* for that kind of money...


They can be had a tiny bit cheaper, that is not the cheapest source. But they are nice modules.

What do you mean by an entire Bolt pack?
I found them cheaper used, but those were the recall versions.
In fact, I have a Bolt (Ampera-E) and am still waiting for the new battery.

Anyway, these modules are new, take that into account.


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## Swing (Apr 25, 2021)

brian_ said:


> I agree - any of the OEM active cooling solutions works for reasonably fast charging. Even a Leaf without active cooling can charge at more than 1C.


Yeah and my Bolt Ampera-E has liquid cooling but doesnt even charge over 1C haha.
Well the batteries still have almost their original capacity and its 5 years old with 140.000km


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