# Making 60 HP feel like 400 HP



## Greenflight (Sep 13, 2007)

Kinda along the same lines (energy wise) as ultra caps. Energy is gradually built up by a power source of lower potential and then released rapidly. Honestly I don't see the advantages of adding a hydraulic system. Electric motors are surprisingly well suited to taking the surges from ultra caps, without all the extra maintenance, complexity, and space.


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## Efiero (Feb 7, 2009)

i am thinking that you would not need a controller due to the motors would have a load on them pumping fluid to the accumulator thats one then second you realy would have 400 hp for a short burst due to all the stored energy you put in the accumulator pluse it could have regen to the hydraulics when you are braking the wheel motor then turn into pumps refilling the accumulator . yes if you can get enough caps to go for 30 second pretty much the same


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## Dalardan (Jul 4, 2008)

In theory, it should work. The big deal is that oil is heavy. For a dragster application, get your numbers out to see how much oil you need and calculate the weight of this accumulator (Probably a heavy stainless steel accumulator to witstand 8000psi...). If you get something lighter than a ultracap setup of a battery setup, you're the winner! Build it and race it. You could also do it just for the fun...

Hoping you'll get some numbers out to light our lanterns.

Dalardan


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## etischer (Jun 16, 2008)

What type of hydraulic motors would you use? Most hyrdaulic powered vechicles I've seen don't travel faster than walking speed. Does your hydraulic tank have a big spring and piston in it? Seems like compressed air would work better. You need force * distance. A tank full of fluid has alot of force, but not much distance. Scuba tank has 3000 psi, and lots of volume. 



Dalardan said:


> In theory, it should work. The big deal is that oil is heavy. For a dragster application, get your numbers out to see how much oil you need and calculate the weight of this accumulator (Probably a heavy stainless steel accumulator to witstand 8000psi...). If you get something lighter than a ultracap setup of a battery setup, you're the winner! Build it and race it. You could also do it just for the fun...
> 
> Hoping you'll get some numbers out to light our lanterns.
> 
> Dalardan


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## John (Sep 11, 2007)

I had considered something like this before but with an ICE driving the pump but in the end the accumulator would be too big and heavy and contain too little energy. A twenty gallon accumulator would be counterbalanced by a twenty gallon plus reserve reservoir. For the pressure to vary from 5000 PSI empty to 8000 PSI fully charged the internal volume of the accumulator would be about 54 gallons in a nitrogen bladder type. Imagine a cylinder with an internal diameter of 1 foot and over 105 inches long. In order to contain 8000 PSI it would have a very thick wall and literally weigh a ton if steel. The energy it would contain when fully charged would be less than 1kWh. Accumulators are very inefficient energy storage devices in terms of energy density. Sorry to pour cold water on your idea.


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## Efiero (Feb 7, 2009)

the accumulator would need to be a carbon fiber one and i have found a few that make them in Aluminum and Carbon Fiber but dont know the price of them I am sure there not cheap but it is a way to make more power for short blast and not have to put a ultra high amp controller in and you only would need a fraction of the total HP to accelerate realy fast


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## morvolts (Jun 19, 2008)

John said:


> I had considered something like this before but with an ICE driving the pump but in the end the accumulator would be too big and heavy and contain too little energy. A twenty gallon accumulator would be counterbalanced by a twenty gallon plus reserve reservoir. For the pressure to vary from 5000 PSI empty to 8000 PSI fully charged the internal volume of the accumulator would be about 54 gallons in a nitrogen bladder type. Imagine a cylinder with an internal diameter of 1 foot and over 105 inches long. In order to contain 8000 PSI it would have a very thick wall and literally weigh a ton if steel. The energy it would contain when fully charged would be less than 1kWh. Accumulators are very inefficient energy storage devices in terms of energy density. Sorry to pour cold water on your idea.


not to mention that hydraulic drive motors are terribly inefficient.8000PSI at the flow needed would be like building a tank.


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## Efiero (Feb 7, 2009)

Wow How inefficant are they I have read up on it and i like it when some one said how bad they are compared to a regular trany or are you talking the electric motors if that is the case you can use any electric motor to drive the pump you want so that should not be an issue


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## etischer (Jun 16, 2008)

I get the impression hydraulics is used in applications where you want things to move slowly. Like elevators, presses... Lots of force at low speed. I can't think of any high speed hydralic applciations.


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## Efiero (Feb 7, 2009)

well thats ture they use it on heavy equpment but hydrualics like any form of power can be made to do what you want you only need about 1400 rpm at the wheels to go over 120 mph with a 24.5 dia tire so the wheel motors are not turning that fast it is how much flow and psi you put to them plus there displacment


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## morvolts (Jun 19, 2008)

Efiero said:


> well thats ture they use it on heavy equpment but hydrualics like any form of power can be mad to do what you want you only need about 1400 rpm at the wheels to go over 120 mph with a 24.5 dia tire so the wheel motors are not turning that fast it is how much flow and psi you put to them plus there displacment



How are you going to cool the hydraulic oil?Thats ALOT of friction and heat loss there.


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## Anaerin (Feb 4, 2009)

Cooling the oil isn't really that much of a problem. You could (For example) run the oil through the ICE's radiator (repurposed for this kind of thing) in it's original place, behind the front grille, before dumping it back in the reservoir. That way you would get speed-proportional cooling (Just what you need, considering the oil will get hotter the faster you're going) without the need for any additional hardware.

If things get really desperate, you could also repurpose the electric radiator fan to help, too.


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## morvolts (Jun 19, 2008)

Radiator is rated at 15 PSI on a good day.
I hate to rain on parade but I see too many minuses here.


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## Efiero (Feb 7, 2009)

well first off they make oil coolers and it would be on the low pressure exhaust side to the resevior tank so it is not an issue second if it is well designed it wont make a ton of heat and i see a ton of potential and not realy that many problems


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## aeroscott (Jan 5, 2008)

for every 90 deg bend in the hose you loose 10% . it works for very high reductions in speed like rams etc . many boats tried hydrostatic drives , to much loss . but its the best way to move a yard of dirt .


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## Efiero (Feb 7, 2009)

well there are some that have used hydrostatic drives in cars and motorcycles with great succses it is like every thing to small of lines and like you said about having bends in the line . but if you design it corect it would work keep the bends out no 90 degree fiting there are many still looking at hydrostatic drive for cars and are much smarter than me on it. check these sites out they show what i am talking about better so this is not my idea 
http://www.valentintechnologies.com/concept/default.asp

http://fuel-efficient-vehicles.org/F...-Don-Banky.php

http://fuel-efficient-vehicles.org/F...gster-KCMo.php


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## etischer (Jun 16, 2008)

I don't work with hydraulics much, but I get the impression 200 rpm would be considered really fast for a hydraulic motor. Oil just has too much viscosity. With air, 20,000 rpm is pretty common place. I don't think a 400 hp 1400 rpm hydraulic motor is feasible. 



Efiero said:


> well thats ture they use it on heavy equpment but hydrualics like any form of power can be made to do what you want you only need about 1400 rpm at the wheels to go over 120 mph with a 24.5 dia tire so the wheel motors are not turning that fast it is how much flow and psi you put to them plus there displacment


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## Efiero (Feb 7, 2009)

first i said 60 Hp feel like 400 HP not a continuse 400 HP that is what the accumulator is for the burst of power for acceleration and hydraulic motors can spin faster than you might think but it must be designed for what your trying to do ceck out the articles that are above those sites have verey good info on this


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## Efiero (Feb 7, 2009)

Ok i had another thought . first one electric motor would be hooked up to a pump and run by a motor speed controller .that would be plumed straight to the wheel motors and would be say 8 to 1 gear . the second electric motor would be hooked to a pump of the same size and plumed to the accumulator and run by a pressure switch that turns the pump on when there is 5000 psi or less and turns it off when it hits 6000 psi. there would be a progressive linkage to the valve that go's from the accumulator to the wheel motors you would and would be hooked to the gas pedal along wtih the motor speed controler.you would need check valves on both pumps so you wouldnt get back flow.the accumulator valve would not start to open till 1/2 to 3/4 throtel i hope this makes sense


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## tj4fa (May 25, 2008)

I like the idea of hydraulics running a car. They already do it in UPS and garbage trucks.

http://blogs.edmunds.com/greencarad...nology-boosts-fuel-efficiency-45-percent.html

The components seem to be smaller and lighter except for maybe the hydraulic accumulator/reservoir but how much does a battery pack weight?

In my Ranger EV the battery pack accounts for about 1700lbs.

I'm thinking a small battery pack/electric motor spinning up a flywheel on pressure drop from the hydraulic accumulator would pump an accumulator back up when needed to assist the hydraulic regen from braking, or maybe hybriding it with a very small ICE.

When thinking of the hydraulic pump, I think of a pressure washer. Small pump, small motor/engine putting out high pressure and volumn.


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## blackpanther-st (Apr 4, 2009)

Efiero said:


> Ok Some one showed me some thing that got me thinking how can i make a electric car accelerate fast and this is my thoughts and some of it is from what i have seen writen. first off it would be hydraulic drive with electric motor driven pumps now how it would work first off you need a accumulator tank like 10 to 20 gallon this holds the hydraulic fluid under pressure like 8000 psi that is hooked to a simple ball valve to the hydraulic wheel motors then you have an electric pump 60 hp so when the pressure drops to 5000 psi it starts and stops at 800psi to refill the accumulator ther would need to be a check valve on the pump so the fluid would only go one way. now how wolud this make it feel like you have more power if you open the ball valve all the way it will flow all the fluid to the wheel motors at 8000 psi fir a short time those making more hp for a short time and to go like 60 the ball valve just opens a little bit


Ford had been experimenting with this for an ICE set up; only theirs was a parallel setup instead of series. it worked rather well for the ICE as I understand it , but it was noisy and as others here have mentioned there is a good bit of aditional waight involved ( we already have problems with that.) the acumulator is not so much the problem so much as is the pump/motor. (their parelel setup combines the two funtions in oune unit using reversing valves to save weight and complexety.

As Greenflight mentioned, this is un nessesary with electic motors, the are well suted to surge power up to 10X there continuious rating; a light weaght ultracapacitor bank can deliver that power with much les weight.

If you are still interested in this though, I would recomend taking a look at high end paint ball guns for the acumilator tech; some are using extream presure CO2 in composit fiber tanks, and they are suprisingly light!


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## tj4fa (May 25, 2008)

I think a combination of many technologies is the answer until we get lighter and more powerful batteries that the average person can get and afford.

Below is an article that talks a bit about aerodynamics which will apply to our electric cars as well as other alternate vehicles such as hydraulic hybrids.

The Avion car in the link below is pretty nice looking compared to cars like the Prius and Insight plus is an XPrize entry and the article at it's main page indicates it has gotten over 100mpg.

http://www.free-energy.ws/transportation.html 

Here's another Xprize entry that is a hydraulic hybrid: http://www.popularmechanics.com/blogs/automotive_news/4311692.html


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## blackpanther-st (Apr 4, 2009)

tj4fa said:


> I think a combination of many technologies is the answer until we get lighter and more powerful batteries that the average person can get and afford.
> 
> Below is an article that talks a bit about aerodynamics which will apply to our electric cars as well as other alternate vehicles such as hydraulic hybrids.
> 
> ...


I agree. Yes there are many answers, electric is just one of them. nearly 30 years ago I had heard of series hybrids that were able to break the 100 MPG barrier which is what I am looking to reproduce with my own project. I am just geting started here so I haven't posted anything on it yet, but I will be soon. I plan to document the whole project for others who are interested. I doubt that I will reach my 100 MPG goal due to inefficiency in the alternator, but I will be satisfied if I get better than 60MPG, it beats the 20/24 it gets now.

A little note here; the production hybrids being produced today are wimpy parallel configurations with not enough battery power and electric motor output to be of the benefit they should be; in my opinion they are a joke of an excuse to call something a green hybrid.


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## Efiero (Feb 7, 2009)

I am verey disapoited with all the big car companys they just dont seem to want to do it its like some one has to hold gun to there head to do it. 
There are so many smart folks all over and seem to be able to do what a GM,ford,Toyota, ect cant . I know that I have a bunch of ideas not that they are all great but i think like using electric motors and hydraulics to make a car accelerat fast so you dont need to use a supper high amp controler . I have 2 ways to do what i want with hydraulics one would be to have one electric motor drive a pump that runs some hydraulic motors that drive the wheels and would have a gear ratio of 8 to 1 and there would be a second pump and electric motor that fills a hydraulic accumulator to 6000 psi and when you floor it a valve open and dumps all that extra stored power to those hydraulic motors drivnig the wheels and acceleration big time


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## Bowser330 (Jun 15, 2008)

I am not a huge fan of hydraulic power for cars...makes more sense for stop n go trucks really....but here's some car information...

http://www.hybridcars.com/related-technologies/hydraulic-hybrids.html

about the car industry being slow to develop clean efficient technologies, 

VW developed a hatchback based on the Golf that was a diesel hybrid and got 80mpg...with performance that was comparable to many cars that can get 30's for mpg...but guess what...they wont release it...why..who the hell knows...Big Oil?


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## RollingTripod (Jan 2, 2010)

dont mean to be harsh but that is a dumb idea. Please dont spend any of your hard earned money on it.
Pumping fluid is one of the least efficient things you can do, only do it if you must!


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## Bowser330 (Jun 15, 2008)

RollingTripod said:


> dont mean to be harsh but that is a dumb idea. Please dont spend any of your hard earned money on it.
> Pumping fluid is one of the least efficient things you can do, only do it if you must!


well there are probably a few better ways you could have phrased that so as not to sound too harsh, but i doubt anyone took offense...

I like it because it's still alterntive energy technology and that is what we need. With more research and development of alterntive energy technology we will be able to discover and pursue those higher efficiency systems...

Additionally, about the efficiency of pumping fluid, I could have sworn the eaton system said it was a more efficient way of energy capture than electric...


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## badasstoyotas (Jan 5, 2010)

First off I'm a nub to EV but right off the bat I see one BIG problem with your idea though, to many parts to many things that can go wrong or break. Its the same problem with ICE cars ( especially high performance cars )


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## RollingTripod (Jan 2, 2010)

Bowser330 said:


> well there are probably a few better ways you could have phrased that so as not to sound too harsh, but i doubt anyone took offense...
> 
> I like it because it's still alterntive energy technology and that is what we need. With more research and development of alterntive energy technology we will be able to discover and pursue those higher efficiency systems...
> 
> Additionally, about the efficiency of pumping fluid, I could have sworn the eaton system said it was a more efficient way of energy capture than electric...


yes you are right, apologies i mean no harm - i have the tact and prowess of a bull in a china-shop! 

still my point remains. Pumping fluid induces turbulence, heat and friction, all of which result in losses of energy. They open up a whole new realm of problems from maintenance, to pressure pulses. The pump will also have to be powered by something as well, namely a motor or an ICE, one of which we are all trying to use as they are very efficient - the other is a wonderful creation, but is fast becoming a dated invention. (however i still want a V12)

converting stored electrical energy into kinetic in a motor, then into kinetic in a fluid, then back into kinetic in a turning wheel is excessive. why not put a coal powered boiler in it to generate the electricity for the batteries? Because coverting energy from one form to another costs energy, the inventions we use to harness natures power arent as good as natures methods - until then we must use the most appropriate of ours.

Kinetic energy in fluids is best applied to slow moving high force components as it can travel through pipes yet give a uniform and highly controllable force applied to an area - like your cars' brakes, a hydraulic lift on a forklift or the incredible control surfaces on an aeroplanes wings that allow us to defy nature. 

Drivetrains are best with mechanical systems as the losses are much less.


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## gor (Nov 25, 2009)

Efiero, this idea been studied, tried and built before, numerous combinations and prototypes
basic principle - is simple; but actual built - very not simple and it is expensive;
- who think hydraulic systems and drivetrain inefficient, might be surprised (50hp pump/motor you can hold in the hand (~5kg), tiny hydro pump and motor delivers 30hp to racing superbike front wheel... - i been surprised: so "efficient and planty of torque" electric motors often have to use ICE gearbox ... - there is advantages and disadvantages, strong and week points - devil in details (which could make it or break it)

here's some links for you:

Hydraulicinnovations forum (hydraulic systems, vehicles, DIY)
http://www.hydraulicinnovations.com/forum/showthread.php?t=331
current built:
HI-MPG Commuter Car Build.. (back to the 70's)

1000 horsepower Ford Explorer: http://www.cardomain.com/ride/3003264
http://www.hybridvehicle.calpoly.edu/index.html


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## RollingTripod (Jan 2, 2010)

http://www.fluidpowerjournal.com/images/2009/FPJOHD09/FPJOH09_Aseries.pdf

incredible! 

It does seem that hydraulic drive trains are more efficient at low RPMs


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## gor (Nov 25, 2009)

more links on the topic

http://www.ccefp.org/research/testbeds/hydraulic-hybrid-passenger-vehicle

Yamaha racing; 2wd: added 30hp to the front wheel - hydro drivetrain (motor, pump, hoses, oil, cooller) - 8kg, 12500rpm

http://www.motorcycle-usa.com/269/4240/Motorcycle-Article/Yamaha-R1-Ohlins-2WD-Review.aspx
http://www.ohlins.com/Checkpoint-Ohlins/2WD---The-Complete-Story/The-2WD-Specification/


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## RollingTripod (Jan 2, 2010)

gor said:


> more links on the topic
> 
> http://www.ccefp.org/research/testbeds/hydraulic-hybrid-passenger-vehicle
> 
> ...


thats an awesome creation! I can imagine that the pumps from bosch probably cost around the same as a 3bedroom house! 
Excellent piece of engineering, lets hope its developed further


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