# Chevy Volt Outselling Corvette in 2012



## lowcrawler (Jun 27, 2011)

But I thought the Volt was a 'huge failure'...

*rolleyes*


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## PhantomPholly (Aug 20, 2008)

It is, and not because it has batteries. 

Corvette sales, always a niche market, have plummeted because of the economy.


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## lowcrawler (Jun 27, 2011)

Oh, so a 45k extended-range hybrid isn't a 'niche' market?


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## PhantomPholly (Aug 20, 2008)

That's exactly the point, isn't it? The Volt was meant to be "an electric car for the masses." How's that working out?

Now, the new Toyota Camry at $26k starting price may finally crack that nut. It appears to be an excellent vehicle - 200hp on tap when you want it, with a CVT to make best use of available power - but still gets over 40mpg. What's not to love?


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## dladd (Jun 1, 2011)

PhantomPholly said:


> That's exactly the point, isn't it? The Volt was meant to be "an electric car for the masses." How's that working out?


But I thought it was supposed to be "more car than electric."


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## DavidDymaxion (Dec 1, 2008)

You can argue the Corvette is the best bang-for-the buck car in the world. It's Ferrari fast for a fraction of the price. Chevy also gets a ton of good press from the Corvette on an ongoing basis. It is also the longest, or one of the longest continuously produced car models of all time -- clearly GM thinks the Corvette is worth doing despite historicalliy low sales numbers.

The Volt is significantly more expensive that the Leaf, MiEV, and Prius competition. You are also paying over double economy car prices for a car that is essentially an economy car, with boring looks to boot.

Don't get me wrong, I'd love to have a Volt! I think the Tesla Model S, Priuis, MiEV, and Leaf are the cars to contrast it with. (BTW I think another 20% for a Tesla Model S is a very interetsing comparison.)


lowcrawler said:


> Oh, so a 45k extended-range hybrid isn't a 'niche' market?


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## PhantomPholly (Aug 20, 2008)

DavidDymaxion said:


> You can argue the Corvette is the best bang-for-the buck car in the world. It's Ferrari fast for a fraction of the price. Chevy also gets a ton of good press from the Corvette on an ongoing basis. It is also the longest, or one of the longest continuously produced car models of all time -- clearly GM thinks the Corvette is worth doing despite historicalliy low sales numbers.


More importantly from the standpoint of a sustainable business model, it is profitable.



> The Volt is significantly more expensive that the Leaf, MiEV, and Prius competition. You are also paying over double economy car prices for a car that is essentially an economy car, with boring looks to boot.


You are too kind. Not being sarcastic, being literal - the car is a stinker in the looks department.



> Don't get me wrong, I'd love to have a Volt! I think the Tesla Model S, Priuis, MiEV, and Leaf are the cars to contrast it with. (BTW I think another 20% for a Tesla Model S is a very interetsing comparison.)


I'd rather have a Toyota. Better looking, better performing, half the price. Just sayin'...


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## rochesterricer (Jan 5, 2011)

I think the Volt looks awesome, and I know I'm not alone. Most people I've talked to IRL think it looks really good.


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## lowcrawler (Jun 27, 2011)

PhantomPholly said:


> Now, the new Toyota Camry at $26k starting price may finally crack that nut. It appears to be an excellent vehicle - 200hp on tap when you want it, with a CVT to make best use of available power - but still gets over 40mpg. What's not to love?


Well, if you live within the battery range of work, the Volt smokes it in MPGe... and even if you don't, it still beats it by a lot for almost anything but the absolute longest commutes (and, personally, most people that commute more than 40 miles a day are flippin retarded).

It's also smoking the prius in it's first year too... and that seemed to work out pretty well.

Looks? Meh... it was supposed to look sweet (if it had looked like the concept, I'd have bought one in a heart beat... once I saw it looks like every other focus-grouped-to-death car on the road, I decided to DIY). What came out is pretty bland. Then again, almost all cars are bland now-a-days - focus group acceptability removes everything 'interesting'.


I'm not sure where the hatred of a car that's pushing the boundaries and trying to bridge to EV's comes from... it's just a car. Too bad it's needlessly turned into some right-wing punching bag... (all while having owners spend nearly a BILLION dollars buying them so far)


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## PhantomPholly (Aug 20, 2008)

rochesterricer said:


> I think the Volt looks awesome, and I know I'm not alone. Most people I've talked to IRL think it looks really good.


Hehe - given the sales figures, I suspect that may say more about the people you hang with than the car's intrinsic "beauty." Unlike the Corvette, they aren't buying them for their acceleration... 

BUT - if it's beautiful to you, so be it. Rest assured I would never stop you on the street to tell you what an ugly car you had.


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## PhantomPholly (Aug 20, 2008)

lowcrawler said:


> Well, if you live within the battery range of work, the Volt smokes it in MPGe...


I suppose that's fine if you want bragging rights about that sort of thing. From an economic standpoint, though, the $20k difference between a hybrid Camry and the Volt would take 20 years to justify the price difference. That's just not practical for most people.



> ...and even if you don't, it still beats it by a lot for almost anything but the absolute longest commutes (and, personally, most people that commute more than 40 miles a day are flippin retarded).


When I commute, it's more than 40 miles - but then again, the house I live in now (a foreclosure) would have cost 4 times what I paid for it this year in my old neighborhood with a short commute. We drive by our old house occasionally, and wonder how anyone can live piled up on top of each other in cities and think they are happy. To live in our idea of heaven today, I'm gonna have to say that those who haven't tried it are the ones of "limited thinking..." 



> It's also smoking the prius in it's first year too... and that seemed to work out pretty well.


Time will tell. When the Prius was new, it was NEW (nothing else like it). The Volt probably had the biggest car buildup and introduction in history. I'd call that poor use of marketing dollars.



> Looks? Meh... it was supposed to look sweet (if it had looked like the concept, I'd have bought one in a heart beat... once I saw it looks like every other focus-grouped-to-death car on the road, I decided to DIY). What came out is pretty bland. Then again, almost all cars are bland now-a-days - focus group acceptability removes everything 'interesting'.


Exactly. And, while I (and many others) will tolerate that in a $25k car, we generally expect a bit "more" in a $45k car.



> I'm not sure where the hatred of a car that's pushing the boundaries and trying to bridge to EV's comes from... it's just a car. Too bad it's needlessly turned into some right-wing punching bag... (all while having owners spend nearly a BILLION dollars buying them so far)


The alleged hatred is manufactured by the news media. I don't know anyone who hates the Volt, certainly not me. It's not a punching bag, it's simply a bad joke. It's like a tone-deaf drunk at a Karaoke contest - everybody knows he's there and just wishes they'd sit back down.


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## rochesterricer (Jan 5, 2011)

PhantomPholly said:


> Hehe - given the sales figures, I suspect that may say more about the people you hang with than the car's intrinsic "beauty." Unlike the Corvette, they aren't buying them for their acceleration...
> 
> BUT - if it's beautiful to you, so be it. Rest assured I would never stop you on the street to tell you what an ugly car you had.


Sales are affected by many factors, looks only being one of them. I hang out with a VERY diverse group of people. Everything from tree hugging liberals to gun collecting conservatives, with many geographic backgrounds. Opinions were positive across all groups.

Personally, I think you're probably just weird


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## PhantomPholly (Aug 20, 2008)

rochesterricer said:


> Sales are affected by many factors, looks only being one of them. I hang out with a VERY diverse group of people. Everything from tree hugging liberals to gun collecting conservatives, with many geographic backgrounds. Opinions were positive across all groups.
> 
> Personally, I think you're probably just weird


Well you have me there. How many *normal* people go fly fighter jets, or even fly their own planes? 

Then again, how many normal people build their own electric cars?


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## rochesterricer (Jan 5, 2011)

I was just going to leave that emoticon above, but I guess a post must be at least 10 characters here


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## lowcrawler (Jun 27, 2011)

PhantomPholly said:


> the $20k difference between a hybrid Camry and the Volt would take 20 years to justify the price difference. That's just not practical for most people.


1) Not true - 10 years is more like it.
2) People buy cars for other-than-perfectly-practical reasons. If they didn't, we'd all be driving geo metros from the 90's.



> ...wonder how anyone can live piled up on top of each other in cities and think they are happy. To live in our idea of heaven today, I'm gonna have to say that those who haven't tried it are the ones of "limited thinking..."


I prefer to spend time with my family rather than sitting in traffic. Over the course of your career, you'll be spending 2 STRAIGHT YEARS sitting in traffic, polluting, spending money on gas and wear and tear, requiring politicains to spend money on roads and further infrastructure, contributing to sprawl, etc, etc.... I prefer to spend that time with my family rather than destroying the world.

But at least you've got a bigger yard you need to spend time mowing; that's nice. 




> while I (and many others) will tolerate [ugliness] in a $25k car, we generally expect a bit "more" in a $45k car.


 Really? The 50k vehicle market is FULL of amazingly ugly vehicles. Just like people don't ONLY buy for practicality, they also don't ONLY buy based on looks.


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## DavidDymaxion (Dec 1, 2008)

$20,000; 15,000 miles a year; 100 mpg Volt; 50 mpg Camry Hybrid ; gas $4 / gallon -- I get 33 years for payback.


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## lowcrawler (Jun 27, 2011)

40 mile commute per day @ 4cents per mile vs 10 cents per mile ($4/gal).
Savings of roughly 1k per year.
35k after tax credit vs 25k = 10k.
... ~10 years.

It's back-of-napkin math... and will obviously change with driving conditions and the cost of gas and electricity. (gas likely going way up, electric likely staying pretty stable) .... but the exact 'payback' period isn't even that important. No other car has to justify a 'packback' period... What's the 'payback period' on a Escalade? What's the 'payback period' on that 25k camry vs an Insight or used geo metro?


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## PhantomPholly (Aug 20, 2008)

lowcrawler said:


> 40 mile commute per day @ 4cents per mile vs 10 cents per mile ($4/gal).
> Savings of roughly 1k per year.
> 35k after tax credit vs 25k = 10k.
> ... ~10 years.
> ...


At 15k miles per year, the Volt will not get 100mpg. False assumptions, false conclusions.


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## DavidDymaxion (Dec 1, 2008)

My bad, I didn't realize the Volt got a special tax rebate of $7500 the other hybrids don't get. Also a $20k price difference now looks a bit high, I looked up the car prices and after special rebate the Volt looks like it is around $8k more than the Camry hybrid. So you are right, the payback is closer to 10 years. As a business model, it is scary that it takes a $7500 credit to get payback to "just" 10 years, though!

Edmunds sums it up pretty well (17 years payback for Volt vs. Prius):



Edmunds said:


> Because of its one-of-a-kind powertrain, it is hard to compare the Chevrolet Volt to the competition. The Nissan Leaf costs less, but has a limited range. The Leaf can only go as an electric car about 100 miles on a full charge. When the Volt’s batteries are depleted, it just turns on its gasoline engine, so its range is only limited by where the next gas station is (with a full charge and a full tank of gas, the Volt should cover about 300 miles). But, if you already have a gasoline car that you can use for longer trips and just want an electric car for commuting, the Leaf may be a cheaper option if you want to buy. If you lease, Chevrolet is offering the Volt for only $1 more per month than a Nissan Leaf lease. If you’re fine with leasing and worried about range, the Volt is the better option.
> Next to the Leaf, the Volt’s closest competitor is the Toyota Prius. While the Prius can’t be plugged in for charging (though a plug-in version is on the way) or travel for long using electric power alone, it does get an EPA-estimated 50 miles per gallon combined city/highway gas mileage. Plus, the Prius costs nearly $10,000 less than the Volt does with the government tax credit. Without the tax credit, the Prius costs almost $20,000 less. Given the massive price difference, it’s unlikely that the Volt could pay for itself with fuel savings alone. At 15,000 miles driven per year, the EPA says the Prius will cost you $816 in fuel. Using only electric power, for the Volt to cover 15,000 miles would cost about $240 in electricity charges – which means that to offset the Volt’s price premium over the Prius would take over 17 years. While the Prius is less expensive, reviewers say the Volt performs better.





lowcrawler said:


> 40 mile commute per day @ 4cents per mile vs 10 cents per mile ($4/gal).
> Savings of roughly 1k per year.
> 35k after tax credit vs 25k = 10k.
> ... ~10 years.
> ...


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## rochesterricer (Jan 5, 2011)

Keep in mind that all of these calculations assume no change in gas prices over the payback period.


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## lowcrawler (Jun 27, 2011)

8 years, 10 years, 15 years, 33 years... The point remains: Other cars don't have to meet some 'payback period'.

A mid-90's Geo Metro get's just as good, if not better, MPGs than the Camry mentioned as a winner above... Yet no one talks of the payback period of the 20+k difference in price. It seems only the Volt (and to a lesser extent, perhaps hybrids in general) need to worry about meeting some sort of 'cents per mile payback calculation'...

PP is claiming the Volt is a failure/disaster/joke because the payback period is X years... Yet the Escalade isn't a joke? The Camry he mentioned isn't a joke? They all have long 'payback' periods if you compare them to more efficient modes of transportation...


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## DavidDymaxion (Dec 1, 2008)

I think folks are actually trying to help the Volt out with the payback period calculation. If you just looked at purchase price it would be a definite thumbs-down compared to its hybrid competitors -- so the payback calculation actually helps its case. At 10 years it's admittedly a weak case unless fuel prices shoot up.


lowcrawler said:


> ... the exact 'payback' period isn't even that important. No other car has to justify a 'packback' period... What's the 'payback period' on a Escalade? What's the 'payback period' on that 25k camry vs an Insight or used geo metro?


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## lowcrawler (Jun 27, 2011)

But by focusing on 'payback' times and such, you turn a car purchase into a "number of miles per dollar" calculation... and a car is MUCH more than just that -- The Volt, in particular.

Once you start doing a 'miles per dollar' calculation, you basically eliminate any car that's over a certain cost. The Model S suddenly looks extravagantly expensive and you forget the pluses of going hundreds of miles in a sexy, high-tech well-made car with lots of storage without sending money to the middle east. A chevy cruse suddenly becomes a viable competitor to the Volt... even though they are completely different cars and totally different price points. ... and further down, the Geo Metro is a competitor and trumps them both. Etc etc...


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## Ziggythewiz (May 16, 2010)

GM doesn't know if they like electric or not. "More car than electric" should piss off anyone in the target demo.

As Jack R mentioned, the fact that Volt owners are bragging about never using the gas shows how naive they were to think they need the gas safety net in the first place. Just buy a prius C and spend the other $20K converting an awesome electric and you win on all counts.


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## dreamer (Feb 28, 2009)

"At 15k miles per year, the Volt will not get 100mpg. False assumptions, false conclusions."

15k miles per year is only 41 miles per day. So if the first 40 miles are electric and only 1 mile is gas, it will only use 365* 1/40th gal = 10 gallons of gas to go 15k miles during the year. That is 1500mpg, right ?

Of course, it will also use 10kwh electricity per day, equivalent in cost to 1/4 gal of gas. So that is another 90 gal gas equivalent cost. A total cost equivalence of 100 gal of gas. So 150mpg.

So ... it looks like you have to drive a lot more than 15k miles per year to make the mileage as LOW a 100mpg.

At 150mpg-e, it costs $1.10 per day for a 41 mile commute vs. $4.10 in a 40mpg vehicle. So that is $1095/yr savings in fuel costs. At $35 per oil change every 5k miles, there's another $105 for a total $1200/yr savings. 11 years to make up the $13K difference in price between the $26K Hybrid Camry and the $39K Volt. Prices and mileage figures are directly from Yahoo Auto. 

Tax credits would change these figures if both are not eligible for them. Likewise, the battery pack will have endured 3650 65% DOD cycles over ten years. What will it cost to replace compared to the Camry engine with 150k miles on it ? I think I'd leave those worries to someone else and lease.


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## DavidDymaxion (Dec 1, 2008)

The Volt isn't going to win races... It has boring looks... It doesn't seat more people than average... It can't tow large loads... It costs much more than a Leaf or Prius... The safety is likely average... So what is the intangilble that makes the Volt worth the extra $13k? Keeping it long term and showing it is eventually cheaper seems to be about all that is left, and it has 300 mile range. Don't jump on me for being a GM hater, I love my V8 Camaro, and the EV-1s I rented were among the greatest driving experiences of my life. Why didn't GM do a revised EV-1 and at least go for the best aerodynamics claim and unique looks? Imagine an honest five seater that has a 40 mile electric range, and 60 mpg highway due to awesome aerodynamics -- that would have been something to make it special and not an overpriced economy car.

The most "successful" green car is the Prius. The styling makes it instantly identifiable.

Compare that to the Tesla Model S. It's the size of a 5 passenger car but seats 7. It has a very low center of gravity. It has triple the crush space of a regular car, not having a motor up front (and lots of trunk space). You can order a < 5 second to 100 kph (60 mph) version of it. It looks like an Aston Martin Rapid (see pics below). I'll bet the Tesla Model S passes the Volt in sales.



















lowcrawler said:


> But by focusing on 'payback' times and such, you turn a car purchase into a "number of miles per dollar" calculation... and a car is MUCH more than just that -- The Volt, in particular.
> 
> Once you start doing a 'miles per dollar' calculation, you basically eliminate any car that's over a certain cost. The Model S suddenly looks extravagantly expensive and you forget the pluses of going hundreds of miles in a sexy, high-tech well-made car with lots of storage without sending money to the middle east. A chevy cruse suddenly becomes a viable competitor to the Volt... even though they are completely different cars and totally different price points. ... and further down, the Geo Metro is a competitor and trumps them both. Etc etc...


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## Ziggythewiz (May 16, 2010)

dreamer said:


> 15k miles per year is only 41 miles per day. So if the first 40 miles are electric and only 1 mile is gas, it will only use 365* 1/40th gal = 10 gallons of gas to go 15k miles during the year. That is 1500mpg, right ?
> 
> Of course, it will also use 10kwh electricity per day, equivalent in cost to 1/4 gal of gas. So that is another 90 gal gas equivalent cost. A total cost equivalence of 100 gal of gas. So 150mpg.
> 
> So ... it looks like you have to drive a lot more than 15k miles per year to make the mileage as LOW a 100mpg.


Most commutes are only 5 days a week, maybe call it 6 for weekend errands, so the example would be more than 41 miles per day.

MPG and MPGe should be kept separate. Any example can be made mixing the two based on fabricated data and the result is just that. Just report the MPG and MPGe separately and let consumers make their own conclusions. Any consumers that are intimidated or confused by the two numbers should be shown a picture of the Volt's drive train, and have their brains imploded instead of their bank account.


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## lowcrawler (Jun 27, 2011)

DavidDymaxion said:


> The Volt isn't going to win races... It has boring looks... It doesn't seat more people than average... It can't tow large loads... It costs much more than a Leaf or Prius... The safety is likely average... So what is the intangilble that makes the Volt worth the extra $13k?


Substitute almost any 40k vehicle for 'Volt' in the above statement and you'd still be right.

By definition, most cars aren't the "BEST" in any category... the Camry, for instance, is about as 'average' at everything as it gets... it's probably not in the top 5 of ANY category... yet it's the best selling car in America.

What intangibles? The powertrain is the main one, I'd say (which is a multitude of reasons all by itself)... followed by the 'status' of it... followed by the tech gagedtry.... followed by an interior that's pretty good... followed by a long warranty... Just guessing though.

p.s. The Volt actually get's really good safety ratings.

p.p.s. I agree, the Model S is a beauty. If my wife had a job, I'd buy one.


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## PhantomPholly (Aug 20, 2008)

lowcrawler said:


> I prefer to spend time with my family rather than sitting in traffic. Over the course of your career, you'll be spending 2 STRAIGHT YEARS sitting in traffic, polluting, spending money on gas and wear and tear, requiring politicains to spend money on roads and further infrastructure, contributing to sprawl, etc, etc.... I prefer to spend that time with my family rather than destroying the world.


Once again, false assumptions lead to false conclusions. As a consultant, I often work from home. We have a well and septic; although we are on the grid now that will change. When I do commute, I simply leave earlier. Sure it takes a bit longer, but not that much longer. I probably spend more time with my family than you do, and I spend that time in an unpolluted park-like neighborhood. This is how humans were meant to live, and is the way of the future.



> But at least you've got a bigger yard you need to spend time mowing; that's nice.


My wife does most of the mowing - she loves gardening. If she didn't, we would have looked for a completely wooded lot. Over the course of a summer with my lawn tractor I will burn far less than 20 gallons of gas - and in a few years I will convert to electric (just waiting for prices to come down a bit more). As a human, my 2 partially wooded acres of land offset the air I breath and the gas I burn. Contrast that with huddled city-dwellers who are freeloading off the parts of the country they don't live in and don't maintain, while the mass of asphalt causes several degrees of local heating visible to satellites they must overcome with their air conditioners, thus using more energy with their stationary homes than I do with my car. We've hardly turned on our AC while most of Atlanta has been running steady for months - we have shade, gentle breezes, and absent all the asphalt it actually gets cool at night so we open the windows.

This is the problem with folks who don't think things all the way through. They see only one upside or downside (whatever it is they're looking for to justify their position), and assume that that is the sum total of the story. It rarely is.


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## Jason Lattimer (Dec 27, 2008)

Why is a car automatically a failure if it doesn't sell in the hundreds of thousands?


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## PhantomPholly (Aug 20, 2008)

lowcrawler said:


> PP is claiming the Volt is a failure/disaster/joke because the payback period is X years... Yet the Escalade isn't a joke? The Camry he mentioned isn't a joke? They all have long 'payback' periods if you compare them to more efficient modes of transportation...


You are now misrepresenting what I said, and in saying it only that way I'm being polite.

What I said was, the Camry is a good car at a good price, and is a stellar example of how ultimately EVs will rule. My comparison was strictly between the Camry and the Volt as "similar vehicles" - and the Camry doesn't need the crony-capitalist protectionist subsidies that I and other taxpayers must pay for (including "handling charges" for all of the bureaucrats hired to "administer the graft") to beat the Volt. It is the latter, along with the government takeover of GM, that is the bad joke - and they are trying so hard to make their "business decision" look better by subsidizing their own car with taxpayer money, yet still it is not competitive. I did not mention the Escalade, because it is irrelevant to the conversation.

What it sounds like from this post of yours is that you cannot win the debate based on the facts, so your are screaming, "LOOK, SQUIRREL!!!" I'll leave it at that because this is a news forum, and this post of yours was neither news nor news related.


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