# [EVDL] Lithiums on side



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Mark Hanson wrote:
> >
> > Hi Folk's,
> >
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

I have about 5 cells horizontal on the side (larger side) in my bug. So far no problems. 5600 miles.

I first asked Thundersky about it; they said it is okay to mount them on the side (and didn't specify *which* side), but it was better to mount them vertical if possible.

corbin



> Mark Hanson wrote:
> 
> >
> > Hi Folk's,
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Mark Hanson wrote:
> 
> >
> > Hi Folk's,
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Willie McKemie wrote:
> > I was just reading (somewhere, don't remember) that on edge was ok but
> > with the 2"-3" dimension vertical was not. Interior plates are a bit
> 
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Willie McKemie wrote:
> 
> > On Tue, Aug 09, 2011 at 04:27:05PM -0500, Willie McKemie wrote:
> >> I was just reading (somewhere, don't remember) that on edge was ok but
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> corbin dunn wrote:
> 
> > Do we have a battery engineer that could back up those claims? I'm
> > interested to know (since my cells are mounted in the "incorrect" way). My
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Newer TS cells are dryer than the older ones due higher electrolyte
cost and LiFePO4 is more tolerant than what was witnessed with LCP and
LMP cells.

As discussed before there is an effect that is not supported by all
battery chemists and engineers. This is why most leave the excess
electrolyte out.

But it is not that the cell would work better in arguable way but the
excess electrolyte will level out in the lower parts of the enclosure.
We've witnessed decomposition of the internal parts of the positive
and negative pole if they are soaked.

Once (2005) there were wrong type of bolts and nuts which just melted
away in few weeks. Upwards the effect was so much slower that some
cells worked years, some cells still work but majority of the cells
are broken. Cells installed sideways stopped working and showed 0
volts. Cells did not take any charge and voltage spiked up. When we
opened few cells we found just soft and black goo where the bolts
were. We ended opening all 0V cells and found the exact same problem.

This issue was fixed by changing the bolt type but also we stopped
installing any cells on their sides. This is because we found also
that the Al poles become more fragile (can break pieces of it with
fingers) when soaked in electrolyte and cells are cycled. If just
stored sideways effect was noticeably smaller.

I have various cells stored in various positions. Some cells are from
2002 production.

I've after the incidents been instructing people to install the cells
poles up. If you must install sideways, keep it tilted poles up a bit
(>15 degrees). Just to be sure. For commercial companies I've told
about the facts and let them choose what to do. They know the risks
and they cannot say they were not warned. They can always order custom
made cells when the volumes go up.

It does not help that there is development going on all the time. Some
of it is driven by innovations but some just for the costs. Production
rates are already in good level and there is little time to do
profound testing and quality management per component before it's
dropped in. This is why we (users and developers) have important task
to give the feedback.

-akkuJukka

http://www.google.com/profiles/jarviju#about



2011/8/10 Roger Stockton <[email protected]>:


> > corbin dunn wrote:
> >
> >> Do we have a battery engineer that could back up those claims? I'm
> >> interested to know (since my cells are mounted in the "incorrect" way). =
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

At least one of the gray CA series CALB cells seems to be designed to be
mounted on its side:

http://en.calb.cn/UpLoadFiles/48969966696.jpg
from
http://en.calb.cn/product/show/?id-605

Note how the terminals are not in the usual position, and the cell is
actually photographed on its side (all the others are shown with terminals
at the top as usual).

There may be just that one size (50 Ah) in this configuration (without going
to custom made cells), and 50 Ah is a bit awkward for typical DC
conversions. Of course you can parallel cells to get 100, 150, or 200 Ah
pack capacity. The extra constraint of paralleling cells may somewhat negate
the flexibility of positioning cells on their sides. Also, you still can't
get a really flat pack, e.g. for putting under the floor. Finally there is
the extra cost of extra links, more labour to install, and the worry that
one cell could take out its partners (but of course, if you have a 200 Ah
cell in place of four 50 Ah cells and part of it shorted out, you're really
no worse off).

--
View this message in context: http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/Lithiums-on-side-tp3731004p3732740.html
Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

_______________________________________________
| Moratorium on drag racing discussion is in effect.
| Please take those discussions elsewhere. Thanks.
|
| REPLYING: address your message to [email protected] only.
| Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
| UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
| OTHER HELP: http://evdl.org/help/
| CONFIGURE: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

I had to think about this question when I happened to see a picture
of the Leaf battery pack today, some cells on their side and some
lying flat (actually you only see the modules, which house 4 cells
each)
http://www.eco-aesc-lb.com/en/product.html 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Nissan_Leaf_012.JPG
http://green.autoblog.com/2010/05/27/details-on-nissan-leaf-battery-pack
-including-how-recharging-sp/

Cor van de Water
Chief Scientist
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
Email: [email protected] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water XoIP: +31877841130
Tel: +1 408 383 7626 Tel: +91 (040)23117400 x203 

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On
Behalf Of Mark Hanson
Sent: Tuesday, August 09, 2011 12:33 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: [EVDL] Lithiums on side


Hi Folk's,

There's some spots in the Karmann Ghia that could fit (like under the
rear seat) some LiFePO4 T-Shy batteries but they'd have to be on their
side. Does that reduce longevity ot have them on their side? Is the
electrolyte like jello or fluid?

Thanks,
mark 
www.reevadiy.org 
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL:
http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/private/ev/attachments/20110809/0d113cd1/a
ttachment.html
_______________________________________________
| Moratorium on drag racing discussion is in effect.
| Please take those discussions elsewhere. Thanks.
|
| REPLYING: address your message to [email protected] only.
| Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
| UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
| OTHER HELP: http://evdl.org/help/
| CONFIGURE: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev

_______________________________________________
| Moratorium on drag racing discussion is in effect.
| Please take those discussions elsewhere. Thanks.
|
| REPLYING: address your message to [email protected] only.
| Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
| UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
| OTHER HELP: http://evdl.org/help/
| CONFIGURE: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev


----------

