# Converting my 2001 Volvo V40



## johnsiddle (Jun 22, 2011)

Hi Guys.
I guess this is the start of a very long project, I have been sorting things for my build and will start to post the pictures in the next submission.
But I have a quick question, is there any reason why the vacuum pump can not be belt driven off the main motor. I have already sorted a Vacuum buffer tank (old fire extinguisher) and searching around for electric pumps seems a fruitless and expensive exercise. 
John


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

Not really a problem in doing that. It was how I was going to drive the AC compressor to raise a vacuum for the MR2 project.

I found the AC compressor could get max vacuum, 11"hg, in about 5 seconds, about the time I would take to drive to the end of my drive in 1st gear.

I guess your problem would be in switching the vacuum pump on and off but as a mechanical pump fitted to an ICE is always running that might not be a problem. Some do need an oil pressure supply though, from the ICE oil pump. The ac compressor had an electric clutch pulley

I suppose you could put the pump on a motor and power it up to see how long it takes for the vacuum tank to be evacuated and how many inches of mercury it can draw. It is worth getting a vacuum gauge from Ebay to monitor it.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

This is the bench test of the system.


Then out on the car.









The set up of the vacuum system.


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## jackbauer (Jan 12, 2008)

I'm running one of these :
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/AUDI-TT-E...arts_Vehicles_CarParts_SM&hash=item1c20f930f5

works great.


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## johnsiddle (Jun 22, 2011)

Woodsmith said:


> Not really a problem in doing that. It was how I was going to drive the AC compressor to raise a vacuum for the MR2 project.
> 
> I found the AC compressor could get max vacuum, 11"hg, in about 5 seconds, about the time I would take to drive to the end of my drive in 1st gear.
> 
> ...



Thanks Woody, I will get the original pump back from the farm tomorrow and see how it connects. Seeing as it is original it should run ok there was only two connector pipes and these are still on the car.
Wont an AC pump seize eventually as there is no lubrication once the refrigerant is removed?.

Just waiting for the paint to dry on my cradle then its all systems go.
John


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## johnsiddle (Jun 22, 2011)

jackbauer said:


> I'm running one of these :
> http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/AUDI-TT-E...arts_Vehicles_CarParts_SM&hash=item1c20f930f5
> 
> works great.


Thanks for that Jack, being a tight a?e I dont really want to pay £100 for one, although at least I now know which car uses them. Will go to the breakers tomorrow and have a root.
John


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

johnsiddle said:


> Wont an AC pump seize eventually as there is no lubrication once the refrigerant is removed?.
> 
> Just waiting for the paint to dry on my cradle then its all systems go.
> John


Ummm, someone either here or elsewhere suggested a particular lube that the compressor could be soaked in that would then lube it for a long time. Some Land Rover people have used them as a pressure pump for on board air supplies. That's where I got the idea from.

I hope the cradle is square and accurate.


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## johnsiddle (Jun 22, 2011)

Woodsmith said:


> Ummm, someone either here or elsewhere suggested a particular lube that the compressor could be soaked in that would then lube it for a long time. Some Land Rover people have used them as a pressure pump for on board air supplies. That's where I got the idea from.
> 
> I hope the cradle is square and accurate.


I have seen some Surf owners use the AC as an onboard compressor but no mention of the life. But an occasional compressor is different to continuous running albeit being controlled by a pressure switch.
They tend to be a bit heavy as well

There was no vacuum tank on the car but I suppose that is taken care of by the fact that the ICE is always running. I should be able to get a flat belt around my coupling.
I think I have an old Vacuum gauge down the farm.

The cradle should be OK I need to buy a piece of 8 or 10mm steel plate for the motor to sit on. I am waiting for a 17.5mm drill to come so I can re-drill the mounting holes to tap 20mm the 16mm fine thread holes were rubbish. 
I have drilled 16mm as an interim using my drill press, which has cleaned that hole that went off a little. The next drilling should clear it. 20mm bolts wont fall out anyway. 
The cradle is in 50mm box, so what were you saying about over engineered??
john


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

johnsiddle said:


> The cradle should be OK I need to buy a piece of 8 or 10mm steel plate for the motor to sit on. I am waiting for a 17.5mm drill to come so I can re-drill the mounting holes to tap 20mm the 16mm fine thread holes were rubbish.
> I have drilled 16mm as an interim using my drill press, which has cleaned that hole that went off a little. The next drilling should clear it. 20mm bolts wont fall out anyway.
> The cradle is in 50mm box, so what were you saying about over engineered??
> john



I think you should start saving for lithium. 

Do check and double check everything is square and true to the face of the bell housing and gearbox primary shaft. That will keep shimming and adjustment to a minimum.

I am still not happy with the coupler though I am sure that we can do better with that. Have you still got the rest of the clutch plate?


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## mora (Nov 11, 2009)

How about using original Volvo V40 electric vacuum pump?

http://www.ebay.com/itm/2000-2004-v...Parts_Accessories&hash=item19ce738929&vxp=mtr

Mine came from V70 and was 50eur. Works great.


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## johnsiddle (Jun 22, 2011)

Woodsmith said:


> I think you should start saving for lithium.
> 
> Do check and double check everything is square and true to the face of the bell housing and gearbox primary shaft. That will keep shimming and adjustment to a minimum.
> 
> I am still not happy with the coupler though I am sure that we can do better with that. Have you still got the rest of the clutch plate?


Yes I still have the clutch plate bits but the rivits do not match up with the coupling holes which also clash with the springs.

I had a eureka moment in the shower this morning and realised I was talking out the back of my head last nite... My volvo was petrol and did not have a vacuum pump, I was thinking of the steering pump.

Going to the breakers today to have a look round.

The shimming is going to go under the motor plate, not the motor and then bolted and welded into place when I am happy with it.

John


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## johnsiddle (Jun 22, 2011)

mora said:


> How about using original Volvo V40 electric vacuum pump?
> 
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/2000-2004-v...Parts_Accessories&hash=item19ce738929&vxp=mtr
> 
> Mine came from V70 and was 50eur. Works great.


I will check my bits tomorrow but I am sure my car didn't have one of these, maybe yours came from a diesel. Mine was petrol.
John


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## johnsiddle (Jun 22, 2011)

The fun bits now start.

The first picture shows a nice cleanish engine bay. It was fairly clean to start with and the jetwash did the rest.
Next the cradle is started, 50mm box section built for a tank. My Mig welder decided to fuse the electrode wire insde the nozzle soon after I started and refused to be removed so I had to resort to stick welding. I am not very good at this and work on the theory that the more weld deposited the better.
I don't think it will break tho.
I have yet to purchase a piece of 8mm steel plate for the motor to sit on.

My coupler (yet to be tested and not liked by Woody) is the inside bits of the friction plate. When I drilled the rivits out I was not expecting the center boss to be free from the spider. We will see how it works if at all.

The vacuum tank was inspired by Woody, who I am indebted to for his advice and loan of some taps.

The motor has had new sealed, high speed bearings fitted and as you can see it is now painted High Speed Red, I expect it to run at at least 20k now due to this paint. 
The frame is having its mounting holes drilled and tapped to 20mm 2.5mm thread and will soon be resplendent in its new red colours also.

This is the progress so far, will keep you informed.


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## johnsiddle (Jun 22, 2011)

Continuing the last post, a couple more pictures, the vacuum tank which is planned to be put in the exhaust tunnel.

Does anyone know if I will need a non-return valve for the vacuum system?


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

You will need a non return valve for the vacuum system to prevent air pressure leaking back in through the pump.


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## johnsiddle (Jun 22, 2011)

Woodsmith said:


> You will need a non return valve for the vacuum system to prevent air pressure leaking back in through the pump.


Thanks mate, I didn't know if there was one built into the pump.
Glad to see you are keeping yourself occupied...
John


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## johnsiddle (Jun 22, 2011)

mora said:


> How about using original Volvo V40 electric vacuum pump?
> 
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/2000-2004-v...Parts_Accessories&hash=item19ce738929&vxp=mtr
> 
> Mine came from V70 and was 50eur. Works great.


Just checked the bits I took off the car and no sign of a vacuum pump.
According to the CD I have for volvo's they only put them on automatics and Diesels.
Why automatics I don't know.
John


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## mora (Nov 11, 2009)

Yes, it came from diesel version as diesel engines don't provide vacuum like gasoline engines. I believe most diesel cars have belt driven pumps but some have electric ones. Good thing for us, hehe. Salvaged UP28 pumps should be cheap. Mine draws about 10A at 12V and will evacuate similar vacuum tank in 6-8 seconds (to -27inHg). Even less than that if there is a little vacuum left. I get at least 5 good presses before vacuum is -15inHg. Then pump goes on and shuts down when -27inHg. I have separate vacuum switches for low and high that are adjustable. Pump itself doesn't have any vacuum switch.


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## johnsiddle (Jun 22, 2011)

mora said:


> Yes, it came from diesel version as diesel engines don't provide vacuum like gasoline engines. I believe most diesel cars have belt driven pumps but some have electric ones. Good thing for us, hehe. Salvaged UP28 pumps should be cheap. Mine draws about 10A at 12V and will evacuate similar vacuum tank in 6-8 seconds (to -27inHg). Even less than that if there is a little vacuum left. I get at least 5 good presses before vacuum is -15inHg. Then pump goes on and shuts down when -27inHg. I have separate vacuum switches for low and high that are adjustable. Pump itself doesn't have any vacuum switch.


I have been looking at a pump from a Rover 200, Its fitted to the front of the alternator but has an oil flow into it. 
My coupler is just the right diameter and the pump has a V-Ribbed belt to keep it in line.
I was wondering if the oil from the power steering would be good enough to lubricate it, since that would be pumping most of the time and would be an easy plumbing exercise.

I wonder how they control the vacuum with a belt driven pump as it is running all the time, the pipe came straight from the pump to the brake assy so no limiter there, maybe there is a limiter inside the pump.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

The vacuum pump will self limit as it will just reach a point where it is completely unable to pull any more vacuum.

If the pump has pipe unions for oil you could just make up a small engine oil reserviour that is plumbed into it. An old brake fluid reserviour would probably do. It shouldn't need high oil pressure so just having a small supply should do it.


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## johnsiddle (Jun 22, 2011)

Woodsmith said:


> The vacuum pump will self limit as it will just reach a point where it is completely unable to pull any more vacuum.
> 
> If the pump has pipe unions for oil you could just make up a small engine oil reserviour that is plumbed into it. An old brake fluid reserviour would probably do. It shouldn't need high oil pressure so just having a small supply should do it.


It has an input and output pipe so are you saying block the output pipe and just let it suck what it needs from the input pipe.

I will fetch it tomorrow maybe the bearings can be removed and replaced with high speed sealed ones.

Drilled and tapped the 25mm holes in the motor feet, unfortunately one went skew when I was tapping it but it should be OK still got about 40mm of thread tapped.
Given the size of these bolts it ain't going to go anywhere. 

How is the leg doing????
John


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

You could just put both pipes together to the reserviour so there is oil in there. If changing the bearings will work that will be the better option.



The leg is a pain. No driving, cycling or walking on it at all. I can't even put any weight on the cast if I stand so standing for any length of time is awkward at best and hard on the hip joints. Definitely no chance of doing any workshop stuff, especially after I fell over on the crutches the other day and mashed up my big toe. Hopefully not broken it.

Only just figured out how to wash myself and keep the cast dry.

I am wheeling myself about on an office chair with my leg in the air to reduce the blood pressure in it so even walking with sticks is out unless I have to. Arch is going to borrow a wheelchair for m to use though.


Also have to have an injection of anti-coagulant every day so I don't get DVT. I have to get my Dad in to administer that as I can't do it myself.


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## Ace_bridger (Nov 22, 2011)

I was looking at Volvo pumps too. The part number is UP28. It appears that the same pump is used on many vehicles but the price varies dependent on the make of car.

There was one on eBay a while back from a Landrover, brand new, and it went for £30!!! I missed it and ended up hunting down a brand new kit which was sold as it was no longer needed for a hot rod build. I fitted it earlier this week, in the rain (!), with no reservoir and it appears to work fine...although I haven't road tested it yet.


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## johnsiddle (Jun 22, 2011)

Woodsmith said:


> You could just put both pipes together to the reserviour so there is oil in there. If changing the bearings will work that will be the better option.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thanks Ace-bridger.

I picked up the Rover 200 pump today and stripped it. Inside it is basically a 4 bladed oil pump, it sucks air thro the big hole and oil thro a very small pin hole ( this lubricates the vanes) they move round and pushes both the air and the oil out and into the area from where the oil came from.
The pump is the same as this one on ebay now 200677151526 I got mine for £15 tho.





So I think a small reservoir with a supply and return open to the air pressure will work.
The amount of oil that gets sucked in is very small I think, just enough to wet the vanes. I need to shorten the shaft that went into the alternator shaft and put a cover over it cuz some of this oil was used to lube the alternator

A good point is that the vacuum port has a non return valve built in so my modified 15mm plumbers valve will not be needed.

John


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## johnsiddle (Jun 22, 2011)

Ace_bridger said:


> I was looking at Volvo pumps too. The part number is UP28. It appears that the same pump is used on many vehicles but the price varies dependent on the make of car.
> 
> There was one on eBay a while back from a Landrover, brand new, and it went for £30!!! I missed it and ended up hunting down a brand new kit which was sold as it was no longer needed for a hot rod build. I fitted it earlier this week, in the rain (!), with no reservoir and it appears to work fine...although I haven't road tested it yet.


I assume you are still using a vacuum reservoir, if not your pump will have to run all the time using up 12v.

My pump is going to be driven by the main motor so when I stop I still need some braking power.
John


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## johnsiddle (Jun 22, 2011)

Not been on for a while due to a short holiday, but been back a week and been at it constantly.

A few changes of plan, I put the motor back together and tried a dummy fitting..... Didn't fit, the 50mm box I used for the frame took up all my space and left none for the motor to tilt in to engage the coupling.
So out came the frame and so did the cutting disk to make the forward box sections into u-sections.
Then decided the best way is to do what Volvo do and build the motor and gearbox up outside the car and fit as a single lump.
So that is the plan, the gearbox is out and I am just waiting for the steel plate on which to bolt my motor to arrive.

A change of plan on the coupling front ( this will please Woody) I am using all of the clutch (minus the friction disk) and bolting a 3mm thick aluminium disk using the rivit holes to it and then bolting my motor coupler to this disk.



The vaccuum tank has been mounted in the tunnel and plumbed into place, the vaccuum pump is going to be driven by a ribbed belt fitted on the back end of the main motor, plan A was to drive it from the coupling but if the belt broke I would have to remove the whole assy to replace it.
I am going to weld a ribbed pulley from the alternator onto the boss that was used to hold the bearing in place and provide a rev counter in the original milk float. Just hope I can weld it central and not out of balance too much.

Found out that volvo used the crank position sensor to generate the rev counter reading so removed that and fitted it to the motor, had to make my own flag for it cuz I couldn't get the crank nut off the ICE.
Fitted a duct for my blower to provide additional cooling when stationary (or any other time if the motor gets hot) and fitted a lifting eye on the motor back.

Message to Woody, how is the leg coming on, you back mobile yet????

Regards John


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

Looks interesting now!

You know, now you have the gearbox out I will revert back to the original suggestion of using nice thick bits of aluminium plate as the adapter and aligning the motor to the gearbox by standing it all on end.

However, we now have a cradle.
Where you have cut the box section into channels it would be good if you can close the channel by welding the cut sections back in. The transition from the square section to the flatter rectangular section can be blended with a taper to reduce stress risers. Some reinforcement around the internal corners of the cuts will be needed to replace the lost strength and rigidity.

The bolted sections that don't need to be removed should be welded when their location is certain. The brace across the top will need some location lugs welded on to rigidly locate it prior to bolting. Once you have that in the right place clamp some bits of angle to the underside of each end of that brace and weld them to the brace. That will prevent any chance of the cradle closing up when the bolts slip, they will slip. It is easier to show you but I can't get down to you at the moment.

But that brace will move, and let the cradle sag, if you don't have some positive location on it. I'll have to give you a call at some point and we can talk about it.



I am still not convinced that 3mm aluminium plate will be able to transmit the loadings in the coupler. If you consider how hard the steel clutch center is compared to how soft the aluminium is and that the torque from your motor could damage the clutch centre....
I reckon you will shear the aluminium very easily.


The vacuum tank looks good as does the cable duct and cooling duct. Do check for clearances between the brushes, brush conductors and the cooling duct bolts/rivets. It looks ok in the photo but hard to be sure.


I am still immobile. No driving, no workshop, no chainsawing logs, no stone wall building.
I spend all day on the couch or scooting about on an office chair to get around one room and I use crutches to get down to the granny flat for dinner once a day. Arch pushes me about in a wheel chair each weekend to get some air.
I have another hospital appointment on Thursday where I will find out if I can put any weight on my leg at all.
Likely four more weeks before physiotherapy to make me mobile again.

Must look into getting that Land Rover axle too.


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## Ace_bridger (Nov 22, 2011)

johnsiddle said:


> I assume you are still using a vacuum reservoir, if not your pump will have to run all the time using up 12v.
> 
> My pump is going to be driven by the main motor so when I stop I still need some braking power.
> John


I was going to use a reservoir but looking around I found people who had sucessfully used these pumps without.

Mine has a seperate vacuum switch which is normally closed and opens when the vacuum is drawn down to the correct level.

The pump is run from a relay fed by the vacuum switch which has a time delay built in (not sure how this works). When I switch on the ignition the pump runs until the vacuum reaches the right level and the pump stops. When I apply the brake the vacuum obviously decreases and the switch cuts in and the pump runs.

I have not yet had a road test to check how well it is all working.


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## skooler (Mar 26, 2011)

on mine, I added a 22000uF capacitor in parellel with the pump relay, keeps it open for an extra couple of seconds...

If you need any help with switches and fittings let me know 

Cheers,

Mike


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## johnsiddle (Jun 22, 2011)

Woodsmith said:


> Looks interesting now!
> 
> You know, now you have the gearbox out I will revert back to the original suggestion of using nice thick bits of aluminium plate as the adapter and aligning the motor to the gearbox by standing it all on end.
> 
> ...


Hi Mate
I hope its good news on Thursday.

On the question of re-boxing the cut sections, I dont think I would gain too much, the sections are 3mm steel making a U-section 25mm X 50mm X 25mm at 3mm. This stuff is very rigid and I am sure it is much stronger than the ally it is bolted to, it also means I can use shorter bolts and bolt straight to the ally, better than trying to fit spacers across the box.

I am commited to the cradle for now if things are not too good I can easily rip it down and go the ally plate way.

I will give the ally coupling a try, at least the clutch center is now buffered using the built in springs, these should take some of the shock.
In its original form the clutch has a very large diameter disk with friction material on so the added strength of steel is important.
The ally plate will be about 135mm dia, same as the clutch, my heavy steel motor boss is about 100mm with 10mm stainless steel bolts
As long as I get everything lined up I think I have half a chance, it can only fail.

I take your point about the pieces of angle to stop the cradle folding, I will fit these once everything is lined up, I will replace the bolts with some 12mm high tensile engine bolts I have. With the angle welded in place as well as these bolts it should hold unless I go off roading. I think I will change that stresser bar on top of the gearbox and fit it on the motor side and full width, it can not be welded on (was welded in the first version) because I would not be able to get the motor out in the future.

The ducting on the motor has about 20mm clearance from the brushes so no worries there, I need to get a temp sensor pushed up near the top field coil so I can decide when to power this blower, I should have done it before putting the motor back together but forgot.

Best wishes John


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

That sounds good.

I would advise boxing in the open channels as it will make them stiffer. They are the only parts that keep the cradle aligned to the gearbox in the front to back direction.

If I can organise it I will see if Arch wants to drive me down to have a look at your progress one weekend. It would be good to get out and about.

Any other tooling you need to borrow?


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## johnsiddle (Jun 22, 2011)

Ace_bridger said:


> I was going to use a reservoir but looking around I found people who had sucessfully used these pumps without.
> 
> Mine has a seperate vacuum switch which is normally closed and opens when the vacuum is drawn down to the correct level.
> 
> ...


My reservoir was easy enough to fit especially as I had an old used fire extinguisher with an ally case, the top bit was brass so soldering a 15mm pipe was easy, it is T-ed into the vac line with a 10mm copper T fitting. I might fit another T piece in and fit a Vac guage to see what vac I manage to pull.
Electric vac pumps are like hens teeth to get so I will give my mechanical one a try.


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## johnsiddle (Jun 22, 2011)

Woodsmith said:


> That sounds good.
> 
> I would advise boxing in the open channels as it will make them stiffer. They are the only parts that keep the cradle aligned to the gearbox in the front to back direction.
> 
> ...


That would be good, might be better to leave it a week or two as I have a busy weekend this weekend coming, birthday party Sat and a Christening Sunday. 
The only other thing I need for now is the power steering pump and an expert welder to weld my ribbed pulley onto that boss with the square hole in.
I have the two bolted together at present and am resurrecting an old (very old) metalwork lathe, it is the only thing I have with a chuck big enough to hold the boss so I can make sure the two pieces are in line and spinning true. It has not been used for about 35years and has lost its motor and some other bits and is very rusty, but it had a lot of grease on it when it was last used so what is there is moving OK, but all will be corrected in a day or so.

I will look again at boxing the cut sections, it will mess up my paintwork again tho.....


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## johnsiddle (Jun 22, 2011)

Latest developements, Mk2 coupling and the box sections now re-boxed.

The old lathe worked a treat spinning my ally disk, just hope the clutch part is central. The measurments were taken from the center point so should be OK.

Latest thoughts on the vac pump is it is going to be electric either as bought or drive the mechanical one by its own little electric motor if I can find one with some sort of pulley.

I have ripped a vac diaphragm assy from the EGR assy of an old Toyota Surf I used to have and plan on fitting a microswitch to it to control the pump.
JS


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## johnsiddle (Jun 22, 2011)

Gave up on driving the mechanical pump with a motor.... too messy, have found a vacuum pump off a Jag on fleabay.
It arrived today got it fitted and plumbed in but depending on where the pump stops the vacuum escapes so I need to fit a one way valve.
What degree of vacuum should I be aiming for? 
I have my eye on a vac guage so I can see what is going on.

Drilled my motor plate and gave it some undercoat, top coat tomorrow.
Started assembling the heater bits on my backplate fitted to the bulkhead, the high current switches/relays have also been mounted on this plate the cables from the boot batteries will be secured here also.

Should have some more pics tomorrow.


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## johnsiddle (Jun 22, 2011)

Latest developements, the motor is now mounted in the cradle, alignment is near perfect with just one thin piec of ally. 
I am going to losen the motor plate tomorrow and whilst running the motor lift it on the bolts to see if there is room for any improvment. There is just a slight vibration at present, I doubt it will be a problem but will see anyway.

The coupling, after assembling with m7 ht bolts in place of the m6 bolts I used originally, is running pretty true, the center bit floats nicely.

The vac pump is all plumbed in now, just waiting for the vac guage to complete it.
The back plate is now complete, the high current relays are mounted, I just need to get a high power resistor to mount for my pre charge. What resistance is normally used for a bank of say 2000uf capacitor bank????

The next step is mounting everything
John


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## johnsiddle (Jun 22, 2011)

I installed the motor and gearbox in the car today . It was a bit of a struggle doing it singlehanded but I managed not to crush any plastic bits.
Refitted the driveshafts and wheels and with 12v applied they turn... Yipppeee...

I have glued a small magnet on to one of the drive shafts and mounted a crankshaft position for a different model V40 to sense road speed.
I will put my oscilloscope on it tomorrow to see what sort of signal I am getting.
I have bought a Tacho chip from RS, I will configure it to switch a relay to turn off the power steering pump at about 20mph to save 12v power.

I am bidding on fleabay for a Peugeot 106 pump, it is local so no postage if I win it.

The bulkhead panel is almost complete, just need a length of hose to complete the heater line and a pre-charge resistor once I find out what value of resistor I need.

*How is the leg/foot doing Woody, how did the hospital appointment go last week????*

Regards John


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

That's looking good. Running the wheels on 12v is a milestone to be proud of.

Hopefully the Forth Bridge will be strong enough. Do monitor it, maybe some discreet measurements for location at any potential weak points, checking the frame is, and stays, square in all directions.

Really don't want any flex in it as it will destroy the motor alignment, and all the hard work.

Hospital appointment was OK, very very long wait as it was running behind. I think the consultant isn't very bright. I am getting better advice from a cycling forum and YouTube.
I am getting some movement back and I can put a little weight on it to hobble about but still on two sticks for now.
Left leg muscles wasting away while the right is building up from all the hopping about!

With Arch's help I did manage a bit of one legged fire wood chopping at the weekend though! Good for the balance!


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## johnsiddle (Jun 22, 2011)

Thats great news, you are loking good... very manly so is Arch (what is Arch short for?).
How much do you want for that Steering pump, I forgot you had it when I started bidding this morning.

Found out today I nicked the inner CV gaitor when I put the drive shafts back in, luckily it is easy to get to just behind the motor and in plain view. I love electric motors.

I thought this motor was as heavy as the ICE but it almost balances the gearbox and the suspention is right at the top. I guess that will all change when I get some batteries in.
John


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

johnsiddle said:


> Thats great news, you are loking good... very manly so is Arch (what is Arch short for?).
> How much do you want for that Steering pump, I forgot you had it when I started bidding this morning.
> 
> John


Arch is 'Archer', that's her name, most people just call her Arch. Not sure what she would make of being called 'manly' though.

I'm not sure what the pump would be worth, I'll dig it out at some point and see if I can get it to you first. Would it be worth that Land Rover axle you found? We can do a trade on that if that suits.


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## johnsiddle (Jun 22, 2011)

Woodsmith said:


> Arch is 'Archer', that's her name, most people just call her Arch. Not sure what she would make of being called 'manly' though.
> 
> I'm not sure what the pump would be worth, I'll dig it out at some point and see if I can get it to you first. Would it be worth that Land Rover axle you found? We can do a trade on that if that suits.


Tell her I was only joking, girls should not swing sledge hammers anyway.
I doubt that axle will be cheap enough for a trade but I will call down there later and ask.
John


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

johnsiddle said:


> Tell her I was only joking, *girls should not swing sledge hammers anyway.*
> I doubt that axle will be cheap enough for a trade but I will call down there later and ask.
> John





I have the pump, reservoir, plumbing and the control boxes. The loom will need to be sorted for the connectors though.


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## johnsiddle (Jun 22, 2011)

johnsiddle said:


> Tell her I was only joking, girls should not swing sledge hammers anyway.
> I doubt that axle will be cheap enough for a trade but I will call down there later and ask.
> John


Hi Woody,
Went to the scrappers today, he wants £100 for the Landy Axle, a bit steep I fear.

On the steering pump front, I dont need a controller I am building my own as we speak they have two Saxo pumps in the yard for £20 so depending on what price the fleabay one goes for I know I can get one for £20.

Put antifreeze in my heating system today to try it out (just basic pumping) of course it leaked and then I had to re-arrange the pump to stop it cavitating with the air that was in the heater rads, but all is Ok now.
Also found a oneway valve for my vac system (my converted plumbers one leaked too much) that was free. Just waiting for my vac guage to see what I am getting.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

I can pick up an axle for half that amount, if I was able to pick up an axle! I will chase that up today.
Thanks for asking for me.


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## johnsiddle (Jun 22, 2011)

*Re: Converting my 2001 Volvo V40... BIG DAY TODAY*

It was a big day today for my Volvo, he took his first steps as an EV, albeit with just a 12v bat on the passenger floor and some long jump leads.

But still it pulled well in 1st and second, just as far as my next door neighbors drive and back again. Dead quiet as if I was being pushed.
It was a bit difficult steering with no PS and timing the brake with pulling the crock lead off the battery. Brakes worked well.

I then treated him with a shampoo and wax, he feels much better now...


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

Fantastic milestone! Well done!

I walked today, without sticks, but with the orthopedic boot. That is my milestone.


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## johnsiddle (Jun 22, 2011)

Woodsmith said:


> Fantastic milestone! Well done!
> 
> I walked today, without sticks, but with the orthopedic boot. That is my milestone.


You will have to get Arch to give you a shampoo and waxing to celebrate.....


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

johnsiddle said:


> You will have to get Arch to give you a shampoo and waxing to celebrate.....


LOL, I'll mention it to her.


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## johnsiddle (Jun 22, 2011)

*Re: Converting my 2001 Volvo V40 (its now Turbo Powered)*

The latest on the project, as you can see from the pics the motor is now turbo powered, so should go like a rocket.

I won the saxo PS pump on ebay for £18 plus a fiver at the scrappers for some pipes and wiring harness.
I spent a day trying to decide where to mount it and finally settled on just in front of the gearbox. I am now waiting for a refrigeration flare adapter to arrive to join the two pipes. The pump controller I made had a relay mounted on the board but the harness has one fitted, so I removed mine.

I have given up trying to get the ECU to think the ICE is there and working so it will drive the rev counter. Instead I have built a Tacho from a tacho chip and fed it into a bargraph chip. I have mounted some high power leds behind the dial to light up the digits up to 5000 rpm with red ones coming on from 3500 rpm. I dont think I should try to run this motor above 5k or even anywhere near, 3.5k should be OK though cuz it has good banding on the armature.

I have given the motor about a 5 degree advance which should be OK as a start.

The next step is some serious controller building, I have ordered a pre-programmed PIC chip as the basis for the controller so we will have to see how that works out.

Watch this space....


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## johnsiddle (Jun 22, 2011)

Power steering done, works a treat.
Rev counter working.. not perfect but gives an indication of revs.

Pic chip arrived so now to start the electronics...

How's the leg Woody??????


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

You've done well there, nice way to resolve the tacho problem. Glad the pump works too.

I still have 6 weeks in the orthopedic boot but getting some physiotherapy now.
The physio says that I won't be driving or cycling any time soon.

In the meantime I am watching a whole lot of Olympics while working my way through the member's list removing spambots.
Looking forward to the cycling later today.


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## johnsiddle (Jun 22, 2011)

Brillient. You will have to talk Arch into taking you for a drive down, mind you the olympics are good at times, It beats normal daytime tv crxp.

john


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

We're hoping to get to the classic car show at the Manchester Museum of Science and Industry this weekend.

Depends on weather and interesting Olympic coverage.

I love that our first medal was won by a woman sitting down and our first Gold medal was won by two women sitting down!


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## johnsiddle (Jun 22, 2011)

Woodsmith said:


> We're hoping to get to the classic car show at the Manchester Museum of Science and Industry this weekend.
> 
> Depends on weather and interesting Olympic coverage.
> 
> I love that our first medal was won by a woman sitting down and our first Gold medal was won by two women sitting down!


You should be well up in the medal tally by now.... if sitting down is the main criteria...


----------



## johnsiddle (Jun 22, 2011)

*Re: Converting my 2001 Volvo V40, nearly ready for a controller..*

Not posted for a while but been mega busy on the project.

After weeks trying to get the cars rev counter to work and giving up and building the flashing led version.
I installed it and tested it fully installed and would you believe it the original is working as well. So now I have an led display slightly behind the rev counter needle... It can stay there as well too much trouble to un-instal.

I have built and installed my front battery racks, I can just about get 6 batteries in but the capacity will have to be limited to around 80Ah.
Still two to obtain.

I have also installed the case that my controller will be in and done the front high voltage wiring. The blue connector with the red handle is my battery dis-connect for use when carrying out maintenance under the bonnet. ( trouble is I dont know where I put the inside connectors for the part with the red handle)

I have re-installed my second kilovac solenoid, working on the theory that although both will be killed when the ignition switch is turned off, two breakers in series mean less chance of an arc over (in the event of all the mosfets going short and having to turn off live high DC voltage) than if only one was used.
DC has the habit of drawing an arc if turned off during high current flow and I dont want to have to fabricate a high current, mechanical pull switch in the cab.

Need to make the controller now. Does anyone know where I can get a piece of HEAVY 4oz single sided copper clad board about A4 size????

Finally Woody how is the leg, you must be well on the recovery road by now...

Regards John


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

Hey John,

I am almost walking. Just tempting a bit barefoot but otherwise with sticks and still wearing the orthopedic boot.
Got physio to do though. Still can't drive or cycle.


What batteries are you using? I can see at least three different makes there.
Not good to mix batteries in the pack.


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## johnsiddle (Jun 22, 2011)

Woodsmith said:


> Hey John,
> 
> I am almost walking. Just tempting a bit barefoot but otherwise with sticks and still wearing the orthopedic boot.
> Got physio to do though. Still can't drive or cycle.
> ...


Hi Woody, great news, I hope you manage to get down sometime to see the forth road bridge on wheels.

All the batteries you see and some you can not see are just there for testing, in the boot are five 34Ah invalid buggy batts and two 110Ah batts, they are all second hand and have been rejected at some stage. But they are all holding 13/14volts. My first drive out of the garden was with one 34Ah batt and jump leads.

When I know that my electronics work and the mechanics are not going to fall apart then I will make the investment and get deep cycle batteries.

But right now all I need is lots of voltage and current.
john


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

That's fair enough.

It would be best not leaving them all connected up for too long though.

I hope it all works out well, looks like you should have a finished running car before too long.

I'll be away on hols for a week, next weekend.


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## johnsiddle (Jun 22, 2011)

The fun stuff starts.

I started on my controller bd, tried the toner transfer method but was not a success but it gave me enough detail to allow me to re-draw the pattern with nail varnish and a spray can.

I have attached the circuit I have designed, its not a working drawing but if needed I could put component details on it if anyone is interested. Best wait until I know it works tho.

I now have a not very pretty but functional PCB just crying out for components. Should be done in a few days.

There were some telecom batteries (100AH Deep cycle) on ebay but by the time I emailed asking for dimentions they had gone, anyone used this type of bttery and were they any good???


----------



## johnsiddle (Jun 22, 2011)

My controller is just about finished, just waiting for a timer chip from RS and I will be able to instal it in the car.

The next project will be the charger, I remember a high power chjarger designed by Valeron ( I think that was the name) hopefully I will be able to find his project and modify it to charge at about 165v (12 X 2.45 ish) I think he designed it to charge about 300v.

A couple of pictures of the controller, the cables are a bit of overkill I think but the copper board is only 1oz so these cables source the current to where its needed. The heatsink is live at motor voltage with the hot tabs of the power mosfets bolted straight onto it.

I find it hard to believe that these little mosfets with little thin legs can pass 76amps continuously and pulsed at 300amps, The flyback diode I am using is rated at 150amps continuously and 1600amps pulsed, un-believable.


----------



## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

You seem to be doing well with the electronics part of the project.

Unfortunately I can't really help here, I never did understand what those little 'black boxes' did. No moving parts to examine.


----------



## johnsiddle (Jun 22, 2011)

Woodsmith said:


> You seem to be doing well with the electronics part of the project.
> 
> Unfortunately I can't really help here, I never did understand what those little 'black boxes' did. No moving parts to examine.


Trust me, those little black boxes are the easy bits....


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

johnsiddle said:


> Trust me, those little black boxes are the easy bits....


I'll stick to the mechanical moving bits if it's all the same to you.


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## johnsiddle (Jun 22, 2011)

*Re: Converting my 2001 Volvo V40..... Nearly there*

Latest pics, the controller is finished and fitted, just need to wire it up.

Then I must search for the missing contacts from my anderson connector.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

How close are you to driving it?
Not far off I guess.


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## jackbauer (Jan 12, 2008)

John , have you bench tested the controller? My advice would be to do some tests at 12v and watch for problems.


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## johnsiddle (Jun 22, 2011)

jackbauer said:


> John , have you bench tested the controller? My advice would be to do some tests at 12v and watch for problems.


Hi Jack, yes I have and even though I am a a computer engineer I still had a few.
All sorted now. I will do a couple of motor run up's in the car at 24v just in case though.

To Woodys question, if I don't find the contacts for my anderson connector... not very near, my neighbour keeps asking the same question, patience is not his strong point....


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## johnsiddle (Jun 22, 2011)

johnsiddle said:


> Hi Jack, yes I have and even though I am a a computer engineer I still had a few.
> All sorted now. I will do a couple of motor run up's in the car at 24v just in case though.
> 
> To Woodys question, if I don't find the contacts for my anderson connector... not very near, my neighbour keeps asking the same question, patience is not his strong point....


The motor run up test went well this afternoon. 
The first motor test was with 12v and after I found my throttle closed sensor was not clearing, linking it out gave me power to the motor, only managed about 1k revs but controllable I went for a run up at 24v.
This gave me about 1200revs, at about 70amps.

My PIC controller gives me three chop speeds, 15khz, 3.8khz and 980hz, I switched it to 980hz and it worked fine 1500 rpm at about 20amps, I then tried at 3.8khz and same revs at about 17amps.
I think the middle speed will be best, there is a slight whistle from the motor at near zero rpm but when I get my throttle sensor sorted the motor will be turned off at that point so not a problem.

Will sort the sensor out tomorrow then its a dedicated search for the missing contacts after that it is vavavoom....


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## johnsiddle (Jun 22, 2011)

Throttle sensor sorted, did a motor run up with about 45v all good, even moved the car about a foot.

Serious treasure hunt tomorrow for the connectors.

Do you think that I am at the right point to apply to the DVLC to change the fuel rating on the car????.


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## johnsiddle (Jun 22, 2011)

*Re: Converting my 2001 Volvo V40 AGHaaaaaa*

Major probs.
After spending alday fabricating new Anderson contacts I connected up with 127v and proceeded it reverse out of the drive only for the car to take off at great speed and closing the throttle had no effect.

Now when you are racing in reverse and a fence is only feet away I think I paniced, I think I braked hard before turning off the ignition and things got cooked.

I think the problem was that when I bought the Pic Chip I got the version with a slow start thinking that would be good but this chip remembers the last throttle position before it was stopped so as soon as the throttle sensor switches back in, the motor takes off from where it stopped which was about 1500rpm. Of course braking at this point puts a dead short on everything and pooof.... My throttle potentiometer (volvos original) does not go to zero when closed and I thought that because I am dis-abling the motor at that point it would be OK (it might have been but for the memory effect).

I have ordered a new pic chip and no doubt will be doing the same for a few other things before the weekend is out. I then must address the throttle resistor before any more power is applied. I think also that a motor dis-able will be a good idea on the brake peddle as well.


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## johnsiddle (Jun 22, 2011)

As thought the 6 power mosfets are cooked but that is all, new ones on order.

I have now incorporated some mods one of which turns off the mosfet drive when the foot brake is applied as well as the throttle sensor. I now have my throttle pot referenced at 1.2v negative to the pic processor ground, which means at throttle closed the reading fed to the processor is virtually zero and once I get rid of the processor with the memory we should be back cooking on gas... well electric...
I am also looking at implementing a contactor switch off if the current gets to 400amps ( my meter only goes up to 200amps )

I have to say that the speed this thing took off I am not going to be short of torque, it easily matched my 3ltr turbo diesel when it had a processor fault and coincidentally it was the same hedge I was heading for and in reverse as well.


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## johnsiddle (Jun 22, 2011)

*Re: Converting my 2001 Volvo V40... Bad news*

Bad news today another set of Power Mosfets blown also the new 400v 150amp Schottky diode blown apart.

Things started off much better, the brake switch and throttle switch killed the drive Ok, accelleration was smooth.
I went in and out of my drive several times ok,it was not until I decided to drive back and under the car port in second and give it a bit of welly that when I braked the drive remained on and then died.

The diode was hidden in a big pile of black ash and a check on the mosfets to ground showed they were all short circuit. Another £30 in the bin.

I am wondering if I should use multiple diodes, I am sure the Mosfets at 72amp X 6 =430amps should be man enough.

Any one got any advice???????


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

Sorry to hear that John.

No advice on those pesky little black boxes, I'm pure nuts and bolts, industrial revolution man.

I'll pop over soon, now I am able to drive again.


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## johnsiddle (Jun 22, 2011)

zsnemeth said:


> This one might help, if You haven't checked it before Open_ReVolt/PCB_Schematics


Thanks mate.
I did have a look before but could not find the schematic for the driver bd. I was just having another look when your post came in.


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## johnsiddle (Jun 22, 2011)

Woodsmith said:


> Sorry to hear that John.
> 
> No advice on those pesky little black boxes, I'm pure nuts and bolts, industrial revolution man.
> 
> I'll pop over soon, now I am able to drive again.


I am beginning to think you are right.... See you soon.
Glad you are fit and well again...


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## johnsiddle (Jun 22, 2011)

zsnemeth said:


> Just in case, if You got bored from the lots of "File Not Found"  this is the Rev2B_Schematic_All.pdf


Thanks mate I was begining to think my computer was the reason for all the not founds.
Thanks again.


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## johnsiddle (Jun 22, 2011)

I see the Cougar is using 10 X130a devices and 10 X60amp at 200v flyback diodes.

I am using 6 X 72amp devices and 1 X150 amp at 450v device rated at 1600amps pulsed at 20khz. I thought that would would have been sufficient, I didn't think I would be drawing anywhere near 400amps.

Obviously a re-think is required..


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## johnsiddle (Jun 22, 2011)

johnsiddle said:


> I see the Cougar is using 10 X130a devices and 10 X60amp at 200v flyback diodes.
> 
> I am using 6 X 72amp devices and 1 X150 amp at 450v device rated at 1600amps pulsed at 20khz. I thought that would would have been sufficient, I didn't think I would be drawing anywhere near 400amps.
> 
> Obviously a re-think is required..


Now up to 10 x 76amp mosfets (130a ones not available in UK till after Christmas or thereabouts), 10 x 100amp diodes and a hall effect current transducer similar to the one in the OpenRevo cct..
Soon to to fitted and then to go for run three.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

johnsiddle said:


> Soon to to fitted and then to go for run three.


Good luck, John!


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## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

*Re: Converting my 2001 Volvo V40... Bad news*



johnsiddle said:


> ....I find it hard to believe that these little mosfets with little thin legs can pass 76amps continuously and pulsed at 300amps, The flyback diode I am using is rated at 150amps continuously and 1600amps pulsed, un-believable.





johnsiddle said:


> Bad news today another set of Power Mosfets blown also the new 400v 150amp Schottky diode blown apart.
> ...


Yep, it is hard to believe those little mosfets with their little thin legs can handle 76A each... probably because they can't.

A realistic current limit for the TO-220 package is 20A while the TO-247/TO-218 & TO-264 packages can handle about 50A.

Are you learning anything each time you blow up parts, or do you intend to keep shoveling silicon at the problem until it *appears* to go away?


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## johnsiddle (Jun 22, 2011)

*Re: Converting my 2001 Volvo V40... Bad news*



Tesseract said:


> Yep, it is hard to believe those little mosfets with their little thin legs can handle 76A each... probably because they can't.
> 
> A realistic current limit for the TO-220 package is 20A while the TO-247/TO-218 & TO-264 packages can handle about 50A.
> 
> Are you learning anything each time you blow up parts, or do you intend to keep shoveling silicon at the problem until it *appears* to go away?


I am learning a lot, like I didn't have enough of em to start with. The problem wont just go away it has to be driven out.

Seriously the latest version has the hall effect current limiting system of the openrevo system, plus if the over current is sustained for 1.6 secs the main contactor is tripped. 
Also as soon as the current reaches 580 amps (which is what I anticipate setting it to) the processor is stopped and the drive to the mosfet drivers is grounded, a sort of belt and braces. Maybe I will set it lower for the first test tomorrow say 300amps.

Initially I only expected to be drawing about 200amps which is why I bought a 200amp meter and only rated the controller at 400amps, but obviously the current will spike much higher even if only for a short time. This sensing circuitry will react extreemly fast and should curtail the spikes.

One thing, I as an electronics engineer should have appreciated is that the flyback diode or diodes do not just snub the residual charge in the motor when the current switches off, it actually continues to drive the motor during the off portions ( a diode across a relay will actually slow its release when the power is cut). Which means it is actually doing 50% of the work the main mosfets do, which is how switch mode power supplies manage to shift as much power as they do through such little transformers..

The circuit including the diodes, mosfets and the great inductance that is the motor constitute a Buck Boost Converter, my original 150amp diode, even with its 1600amp pulse rating did not stand a chance.

Fingers crossed for tomorrow.


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## DDDvvv (Apr 2, 2012)

i understand your pain. ive been there before. as advised, 6 to220 dont have enough current headroom. if its a pain to redesign the board, then see if you can scale up to to247 devices.

at least, you could add a separate power board with more mosfets, above the main board. looks like you have space in that big box.

a bigger heat sink would also help, but as they say, its your silicon, your choice. if your current design agrees to work, you will set the record for being the first to control a vehicle with only six TO220 fets.

i moved on to igbts for my power circuits, and things stopped blowing up ever since.


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## johnsiddle (Jun 22, 2011)

DDDvvv said:


> i understand your pain. ive been there before. as advised, 6 to220 dont have enough current headroom. if its a pain to redesign the board, then see if you can scale up to to247 devices.
> 
> at least, you could add a separate power board with more mosfets, above the main board. looks like you have space in that big box.
> 
> ...


Hi Mate. 
Thanks for the post, the devices didn't get hot or blow their pins they just failed internally going short (they obviously got hot internally but I think there was just too few of them).
I think the big problem was the big (not big enough) flyback diode and no current limiting. Once the diode blew the mosfets didn't stand a chance. The car really only travelled a total of 30ft and nothing was even warm, the flyback diode was in two pieces tho and buried in the middle of a big black sooty area.

Things are different now, the heatsink has been beefed up the diode has multiplied to 10 X 100a x 600v ( was only 1 x 150a 200v ) devices mounted on a big heatsink area and the mosfets multiplied to 10 also.
There is a very large fan blowing on the top of the devices and hall effect current sensing and limiting designed in with drive cut above a certain current (currently set at 300a) with contactor trip if the over current is sustained for approx 1.6 secs. ( this is really to stop me going thro the hedge if everything shorts again)

I did some static motor runs today with 147v and rpm runs up to 4500, my current meter is not giving me an accurate reading according to my clip on multimeter so I am not too sure what current I am pulling with just the motor running, obviously it would be a lot higher if it were in gear and moving. 
But after about half an hour of running things are still good and only the diode heat sink getting very slightly warm. 

One bit of bad news I discovered today is that my motor has a 4.7k leak to chassis, it is probably caused by carbon dust despite the deep cleaning the motor got before installation.
This does mean that I can not use charger that is running at mains potential since 4.7k would shoot the RCB dead in micro secs. I will have to have an isolated charger system and I am thinking of buying 3 X 48v switch mode chargers plus a 12v one.

Its amazing how projects like these start simple then grow and grow.

Good game........Good game....


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## johnsiddle (Jun 22, 2011)

*Re: Converting my 2001 Volvo V40... All good*

Todays test with the car in gear and running up and down the short road I live in went well, I only had 137v cuz I had to use one of the batteries as a system battery, the one I was using went dead.

The diode array got mildly warm and the mosfets hardly warmed up at all I don't know how much current I am pulling the ammeter is not that accurate but I know it is less tat 300a cuz I got no cutouts..

The tests only lasted about half an hour before the batteries started failing but its all good. The batteries havn't been charged for weeks and have had a lot taken out of them and they are all rejects after all so only to be expected.

I tested my heating system this afternoon and it worked well, I got quite a bit of heat out despite the batteries being down to about 100v.

I need to find a decent relay capable of switching 15 amps at 150v DC without turning into a TIG welder tho. May build a Mosfet driver bd with an opto isolator.

Generally speaking its been a good day.

I have posted the latest pictures of the controller the green relay and the white resistor attached to the mosfet heatsink is a 680ohm resistor and relay driven from the ign switch to discharge the capacitors on switch off. This stops the 12v DC PSU being driven by a slowly reducing voltage as the capacitors discharge, its a lot kinder to the electronics.
My pre charge is thro a similar 680 ohm resistor that takes about 5secs to reach full charge, but my main contactor is ready to go way before that, as long as the initial switch on surge is killed which happens within the first 1sec things are fine.


----------



## johnsiddle (Jun 22, 2011)

A quick update.
I have received the three 56v power supplies from China which can be adjusted from 44v to 58.5v, I have worked out how to modify them to control the voltage.
I have designed the controller boards and am waiting for them to come back from the mfr's in china.
I found a very good UK company who have them made in China and are quite cheap. (You have to have three boards made but that is the number I needed)
They are called Tecbridge Circuits if anyone is interested.

I have a problem with my volt and current meters, they read max 500v and max 500amps but as soon as the motor starts to move they read high and blank out. It seems there are very large voltage spikes on the main lines at this point and the meter is able to react to it. Not sure how to cure it as yet, all the filtering I have tried does not work. My multimeter does not respond to the spikes so there must be a cure.
I May move the meter shunt from inside the case to nearer the batteries and see if that has any effect.

That's all the news for now, the car is currently sitting outside totally white with ice and looking very sad.
John


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## johnsiddle (Jun 22, 2011)

Hi Guy's
Before I forget, I hope you all had a good Christmas, and have a Happy and PROSPEROUS New Year.

Not done much lately, been moving my grand daughter into a new house and had lots of jobs to do there.

Just in the final stages of proving my charger system. Got the boards back and built one up then proceeded to symplify the circuit. Charged 4 bats up last night OK so I am just dis-charging them again to do it all over again.
A couple of minor mods later today and I should be ready to build the other two boards (I am charging in groups of four).

Will keep you posted.

Happy New Year.....


----------



## johnsiddle (Jun 22, 2011)

Getting close...

I fitted my charger into the engine bay today and then took and printed some pictures to send with the V5 document to the DVLA requesting a change of fuel. Dont know how long they take but will report back....

Also I have installed 35watt HID bulbs for the main and dipped beam lights... boy they are bright (unfortunately one blew as soon as I switched it on but a new one is on order).

Then its a case of buying 12 batteries.......

PS the reason the front is on stands is because Volvo make you pull the bumper forward in order to remove the headlights and I am waiting for the new lamp before pushing it back in...


----------



## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

Hey, things are looking good! Congratulations!

Sorry I've not been in touch, I even missed your post about driving the car for half an hour!

We should catch up again some time.


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## johnsiddle (Jun 22, 2011)

Woodsmith said:


> Hey, things are looking good! Congratulations!
> 
> Sorry I've not been in touch, I even missed your post about driving the car for half an hour!
> 
> We should catch up again some time.


Hi Woody.

Good to hear from you, how have you been keeping, any more accidents????
Have not done much on the car lately, its been too cold to be working outside.

I have now fitted the charger, pic posted, the three large boxes are the 54v/58v 10amp switchmode power supplies coupled to my controller boards. They were an over kill when I designed them but with a few links and removing some components I simplified them considerably. They will work down to 12v so may use my spare one to control my 12v charger at some point.
The batteries are charged four at a time and are isolated with the relays, the odd relay has an extra set of contacts with I use to stop the main contactor engaging if the mains is still connected. ( Stops me driving off and pulling the house down )

The next box is a 15v 10amp psu which is coupled to the blackbox ( a Solar PV charger I bought years ago and didn't use ) for the system battery.
The remaining box is a computer psu modified to give about 13v at 10amp which luckily runs off 140v DC, no controller just push out as much as possible.

I am waiting now for the DVLA before I buy my batteries just in case.

I have also replaced the headlight bulbs with 35watt HID lamps which give out 3X the light for less power. 
I also glued a strip of led's inside the headlight glass and connected to the parking light which is also an led, gives the front a cool look.

Well thats it for now will post again after the DVLA comes though.

Take care John


----------



## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

johnsiddle said:


> Hi Woody.
> 
> Good to hear from you, how have you been keeping, any more accidents????


No accidents or incidents. Still not 100% healthy, a bit brain dead and a bit weak bodily, but trying hard to get there.

I've been busy doing odd jobs on the house and a lot of planning and pondering on my projects where I can.

I just had to look up your phone number (and everyone else in my phone book) as my recent replacement, due to damage, phone decided to delete all my contacts!

Ho hum.


----------



## johnsiddle (Jun 22, 2011)

Anyone tell me which forms I need to use to get this car taxed as an EV.

The DVLA have returned my V5C saying I have to tax it as a EV and then send them the tax disc, they also sent me a V10 form to use to tax it, but on the form it says that to change the tax class I have to use a V62.

I downloaded a V62 and it makes no mention of using this form when the tax class needs to be changed.

Typical burocracy.....

It appears that in order to change the tax class, I have to get it insured, then MOT'd then taxed then send the tax disc back with my original V5C.
Does this sound normal?????


John

PS, connected my charger to all the old/tempory batteries today, it is charging nicely as I type this


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## favguy (May 2, 2008)

Hi John,
There are two ways to do this, method two is probably going to be least hassle...

1, MOT & Insure the car, then tax it as a petrol as usual. Then you fill in the changes on the V5 and send it along with a covering letter with lots of pics of what you've done and a letter from a garage stating they have seen the car and confirming it is solely battery powered electric drive. They will then send you a new tax disc along with an envelope to return the old one and issue a refund for the petrol tax disc cost less a month!

With this method, they may still be awkward and requset further proof, or ask you to take the car to a local DVLA office for viewing.

2, (This is easier!) Take your MOT & Insurance documents, along with the above mentioned garage letter and your own photo's and spec. write up to your nearest local DVLA office, they will process things and issue you the tax disc immediately. (Unless you get an awkward one, then you may still need to take the car in for viewing!, but you should be OK with the garage letter)

Let us know how it goes 

Paul


----------



## johnsiddle (Jun 22, 2011)

favguy said:


> Hi John,
> There are two ways to do this, method two is probably going to be least hassle...
> 
> 1, MOT & Insure the car, then tax it as a petrol as usual. Then you fill in the changes on the V5 and send it along with a covering letter with lots of pics of what you've done and a letter from a garage stating they have seen the car and confirming it is solely battery powered electric drive. They will then send you a new tax disc along with an envelope to return the old one and issue a refund for the petrol tax disc cost less a month!
> ...


Thanks Paul.
I think I will go the 2nd route, the cars petrol MOT has just run out so I would need a new one, I would have thought that the MOT would indicate it being electric, but I will get a letter anyway.

I don't think we have a local DVLA anymore since they closed the one we used to have, but I think I can find that info on their web site.

Where is the best place for insurance?????

regards John


----------



## favguy (May 2, 2008)

Hi john,
I think several of the guys on here are using pluginsure but I've just got mine covered under my Motor Trader policy at present, so can't vouch for them.


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## johnsiddle (Jun 22, 2011)

*Vacuum switch*

Hi Guy's.
I am on the last run now.
I am not happy with my home brew vacuum switch, its not very stable.
Can any one tell me where I can get a switch that will switch at about 20/25hg or which cars use them so I can try and find one that way. Or does anyone have one to sell.??????

I think I have my insurance sorted thro Pluginsure, Bredon is going to issue a cover note subject to the car passing its MOT.

I ordered my batteries, flooded LeadAcid, cant afford LIPO sort will be strapping them down next week then off to the MOT.

Regards John


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

Well done on the progress!

jackbauer used a switch salvaged from an industrial aircon unit I think. He seemed to find it worked well. He sent me one but I have passed it on to another member some time ago.


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## johnsiddle (Jun 22, 2011)

Thanks Woody. 
How is things with you and Arch, all good I hope.
I didn't think it would be so hard to find a vacuum switch, I presume the cars that use the electric vac pump use a cutout switch.

I am looking forward to seeing what power I get with a set of matched batteries instead of the mottly group of scrappers I have been using.
I can make the wheels screech in first gear with them so new ones should fab.

Getting near the end now.

Cant decide on my next project, convert my Hilux Surf or a three cylinder Kawasaki motorcycle I have stored down the farm....


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

We are good, thank you. Both sitting in the dark at 11.20pm as we turned the lights of for Earth Hour at 8.30 and neither of us can be bothered to get up and put the lights back on again!

I have a motor that may or may not be of any use to you. It is a pump motor but it has a Lovejoy type coupling on a male shaft, I also have the pump and adaptor for between the two.
The motor is about 7" and only rated at 0.45kw at 80v. Might be of no use but you are welcome to have it if it is any use.


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## johnsiddle (Jun 22, 2011)

Woodsmith said:


> We are good, thank you. Both sitting in the dark at 11.20pm as we turned the lights of for Earth Hour at 8.30 and neither of us can be bothered to get up and put the lights back on again!
> 
> I have a motor that may or may not be of any use to you. It is a pump motor but it has a Lovejoy type coupling on a male shaft, I also have the pump and adaptor for between the two.
> The motor is about 7" and only rated at 0.45kw at 80v. Might be of no use but you are welcome to have it if it is any use.


Hi woody.
Sounds cosy.
Thanks for the offer, not sure what I would use it on though, don't think it would power a motorcycle, I think I would be pushed to find space to get enough batteries to make even 80v.
I would need seven 34aH batteries to make 84v or eight giving 96v.. Maybe four on each side of the back wheel in panniers.. Not sure how much power I would need for a motorcycle..
I will give it some thought tho.


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## johnsiddle (Jun 22, 2011)

*Re: Converting my 2001 Volvo V40.... UPDATE*

Apart from re-fitting my voltage and ammeter I am about ready for the MOT.
Fitted my batteries both front and back.

Eight fitted in the rear perfectly and another four in front.
Seeing as I only fitted four in front I used one of the spare spaces to fit a second system battery. Not sure if I would need it but it was spare so why not use it.

Pictures attached...


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

Looking good John.

How long, do you think, before you are road legal?


----------



## johnsiddle (Jun 22, 2011)

Woodsmith said:


> Looking good John.
> 
> How long, do you think, before you are road legal?


Hi Woody.
I undersealed the car today and de-rusted the front brake disks, will do the rear tomorrow and sort out my meters, the combination meter I have goes offscale as soon as the motor starts and the current reads rubbish. I think I will refit the two separate meters tomorrow.

I shall then contact Brendon next week for the insurance and book my MOT, I reckon two weeks tops.
I suppose I can drive the car once I have sent the documents off to tax the car, I could always take them to the Shrewsbury office, might save time.


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## johnsiddle (Jun 22, 2011)

Just a few pic's of the underside.
The last pic is the Power Assist pump.


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## johnsiddle (Jun 22, 2011)

*Re: Converting my 2001 Volvo V40 Update*

Finally sorted the problems with my volt and ammeters reading incorrectly.
Turns out it was due to interference from the motor.

Cured it by setting the sampling speed of the controller from 920hz the other options were 3.2khz and 15khz
Works a treat now except that the motor is whistling at 920hz.... who cares I will just turn the radio up.

Might change the bottom meter (ammeter) to a red one. The top left is a temp guage monitoring the heatsink temp (it is actually reading 7C and is blue but not too bright I need some blue filter for it).


----------



## johnsiddle (Jun 22, 2011)

*Re: Converting my 2001 Volvo V40... Pixxxed offf*

Insured on wed, booked MOT for nxt Tuesday, electronics blown up today.....

All 10 X 75amp mosfets exploded.... Despite building in current limiting and it being set at about 250amp. It obviously didn't work.....
Only went 30 feet down the road but booted it, heat sink temp was only 13C so not a heat build up except inside the devices.

Don't know about the 10 x Flyback diodes at least they haven't blown up.


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## polobear (Nov 13, 2012)

NO!! what a shit.

how are you measuring current, is it a shunt or hall effect?so is your current limiting programming not doing its job?

know how you feel, had a test drive last weekend and heard some rubbing, had to get gearbox and motor out and apart, now to put them back together and in again...


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## johnsiddle (Jun 22, 2011)

*Re: Converting my 2001 Volvo V40... HELP!!!*

Just a thought, do any of you experts think that maybe my controller blew because I changed the PWM chopping speed down to about 920hz.

I had set it to 15khz originally but changed it when my volt and amp meter seemed to be reacting to high frequency interference from the motor.

The pulse width at 15khz is I think 66 micro secs but at 920hz it is 1 mili sec. 
Thats well long enough for a mosfet or ten to blow its top and once the pulse is issued the current limiter has no effect until the next pulse which it will inhibit but too late.

Reading various articles on controller design, they all seem to use 15khz or there abouts and one wiki article said that PWM speeds for motors are normally several khz to tens of khz.
So I was wondering if this is indeed the case.

Any idea's guys??

I have just ordered 10 X 200v 130A mosfets as used in the Openrevolt, controller from Alibaba.


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## johnsiddle (Jun 22, 2011)

polobear said:


> NO!! what a shit.
> 
> how are you measuring current, is it a shunt or hall effect?so is your current limiting programming not doing its job?
> 
> know how you feel, had a test drive last weekend and heard some rubbing, had to get gearbox and motor out and apart, now to put them back together and in again...


I am reading current for the ammeter with a shunt but the current limiting cct reads it with a hall effect device as used in the Openrevolt cct.
It is a blue circular device hanging on the neg supply coming into the controller. You can see it in one of the pictures, its down the side of the red battery..


PS did you find what was rubbing??


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## polobear (Nov 13, 2012)

so do you think you will have the new FETs and up and running before thursday?

my coupler was rubbing (and squealing like a pig )on the clutch release bearing sleeve,i will remove it but need a 12 point spline tool. are yougoing clutchless?


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## johnsiddle (Jun 22, 2011)

polobear said:


> so do you think you will have the new FETs and up and running before thursday?
> 
> my coupler was rubbing (and squealing like a pig )on the clutch release bearing sleeve,i will remove it but need a 12 point spline tool. are yougoing clutchless?


Not much chance of that, they are coming from Hong Kong and even tho Hong Kong post airmail is quick I think it will be next week.

I have cleaned my PCB off today and plan on having the FETS and their drivers on a separate board mounted on a new heatsink. I am replacing the drivers and doubling them (one per fet) also the resistors.
I am going to design the power board tonight then get some copper bd and etch it later.
Two of the blown FETS actually blew a hole in their metal back and right thro the ally heatsink they were mounted on. The diodes test out OK

Yep no clutch, there is a picture of my clutch plate coupler some way back on this thread.
That bit works fine and changing gears does not seem to be a problem.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

*Re: Converting my 2001 Volvo V40... Pixxxed offf*



johnsiddle said:


> Insured on wed, booked MOT for nxt Tuesday, electronics blown up today.....
> 
> All 10 X 75amp mosfets exploded.... Despite building in current limiting and it being set at about 250amp. It obviously didn't work.....
> Only went 30 feet down the road but booted it, heat sink temp was only 13C so not a heat build up except inside the devices.
> ...


Oh crap! I'm sorry to read that, and see the photos. Doesn't look good.

I guess at least the MOT can be re booked when the controller is fixed.

Good luck with it, I hope the new FETs, and board, work and nothing else lets out the smoke.


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## johnsiddle (Jun 22, 2011)

I am redesigning the output stage of the controller.
Bigger heatsink with a pcb for just the Mosfets and their individual driver chips.
The old heatsink is just to be used as a mounting plate for the new one, it will do some cooling as well.

Ordered new bits from Alibaba, a third of the price of RS, will just take a bit longer to get here. Gives me time to get the new board sorted.


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## polobear (Nov 13, 2012)

hi John!
I was wondering how your current limiting works in your homemade controller?so obviously you're measuring current with a hall effect component and get a value to your pic (0-255?)

if your current goes over your setpoint do you just put a time delay between incrementing your pwm level mark space ratio (assuming acelleration)?

so why did the mosfets burn out?


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## johnsiddle (Jun 22, 2011)

polobear said:


> hi John!
> I was wondering how your current limiting works in your homemade controller?so obviously you're measuring current with a hall effect component and get a value to your pic (0-255?)
> 
> if your current goes over your setpoint do you just put a time delay between incrementing your pwm level mark space ratio (assuming acelleration)?
> ...


Hi Mate.
Yes I am using a hall effect to read current, it gives a voltage reading in the region of 3v which changes according to the current. it is fed into an op amp which is fed with a ref voltage relevant to the max current/voltage given by the hall effect.
It was copied from the OpenRevo couger circuit.

When the hall effect voltage out is higher than the ref voltage to the op amp it trips and I use this to stop the mosfet drive, it will stay stopped until the voltage/current drops, in a short circuit situation it will stop drive permenently.
I also use this op amp output to set a 1.6sec timer so if the over current lasts that long it kills the main contactor and you have to switch off to reset it, Again this is incase of the mosfets going short.

The pic is free running controlled by the throttle, it only has 8 pins and only a couple of inputs and these are on or off so I use the inhibit pin to stop it and also, I ground the gate of the drive mosfet to ensure all the mosfets are switched off and their gates connected low.

Why did mine blow? well initially I thought maybe it was because my chopping speed was too low (1.2khz) but I now have a new theory.

When I designed the controller I used the fact that the tab on the mosfets are connected to the drain and did not use the actual drain pin, I then mounted the the mosfets using thermal grease (forgetting that this is insulative to current) so the only connection was via the mounting screw into the heatsink plus any random connection that got thro the grease.

Given the holes that were blasted in the tab and thro the heatsink I think there were some big arcs under the mosfets and once a couple failed the extra current on the others made them fail also.

I am now going to use 130amp mosfets (76amp before) and mount them on their own power amp board with the drain pin connected in addition to any connection given by the screw into the heatsink.

Will post pics when done, in the meantime some more pics of the blowup.


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## JRoque (Mar 9, 2010)

Hi John,

Sorry to see the failure in your power stage. I don't know much about this - much less than you do, I'm sure - but I'll throw some things to the wall and see if anything sticks:

- The heatsink contact with the MOSFET does not seem as smooth as it should be. Polished to a sheen and then using a good compound is the way to go.

- That heatsink might not be sufficient. I would go with a single, large surface that has many thin fins or heat spreaders, plus a fan or liquid cooling. A single surface it's important when your current sharing so heat is also shared and the switches derate uniformly.

- The switch layout must also be equal to all devices to ensure proper paralleling.

- If you're using the Cougar schematic posted earlier, I would bring the overcurrent line to INT0 so you get instant response to that input within the highest priority interrupt. If I were to design that portion of the circuit, I would bring that line to an analog circuit that cuts the MOSFET directly and not rely on the micro to interpret the input and then issue the off command.

- Going out on a thin limb here and/or the schematic posted might not be complete but, does it have one driver for all MOSFETs? Not sure what the current sinking capability of that device is but running through a 30 ohm resistor on each switch might require more than what's available to turn off the FET on time. 1.6 seconds is an eternity in such critical situation.

- Some more random stuff: The voltage rating on your MOSFETs should be at least twice your pack voltage. The power section should have sufficient capacitance in the cap bank. Depending on your pack voltage, it might be worth going for one large IGBT (cheap on eBay) rather than lots of small MOSFETs. 

JR


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## johnsiddle (Jun 22, 2011)

JRoque said:


> Hi John,
> 
> Sorry to see the failure in your power stage. I don't know much about this - much less than you do, I'm sure - but I'll throw some things to the wall and see if anything sticks:
> 
> ...


Hi Mate.
Thanks for replying, on the heatsink front I have a new one in the offing, you are right about the mosfet mounting but the mistake I made (or one of them) was using the tab as a connection.
I am at this very moment doing the new power amp pcb which will be on a larger heatsink. I had a cooling fan and heatsink thermal compound before which was contributed to some of the problems.

I now have double the amperage devices but the voltage is only 200v on a 144v pack, I am using the same ones as the cougar unit.

The current limit is basically the same as the cougar BUT is a direct connection to the PWM generator and also the driver mosfet, I am not using the Arduino the cougar uses. 
The 1.6secs delay is a failsafe against the car taking off at full speed if the fets go short I figure the car wont get far in that time, nothing to do with current limiting, just driven by it.
If this lot blows again I will look at the IGBT route.

I have a mosfet driver for each Mosfet, they are 6amp devices and I am thinking I will drive thro 2.5ohm resistors, the resistors are not really needed, I only used them cuz the cougar used them but I have just realised the cougar is only using one driver.


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## johnsiddle (Jun 22, 2011)

I am just finishing my new power board and I was wondering if I should short all the outputs from the ten FET drivers together.
All the inputs to the drivers are shorted but there will be a slight difference in switching times between them. Perhaps at 15KHz the difference will not be noticeable.

At the moment each are separate and connected to the gates via individual 2R2 ohm resistors.

It would ensure that all the FETs are driven at exactly the same time but it would also mean that if one FET had a short to gate the whole lot would blow.
Of course if one driver failed then the others would keep the system running unless it shorted to ground or +12v.

Anybody got any idea's on the subject????


----------



## johnsiddle (Jun 22, 2011)

*Re: Converting my Volvo V40 Dont know what to do next*

Rebuilt the power amp board today.
All was going well until I booted it, I must have got some current limiting cuz I got some bad judder, but when I throttled back I got smoke... big time.
Easily the best blowup I have had to date.

ten 130 amp devices on a new heatsink that didn't even warm up went kaput. The current limiting was set at 500a and I remember pulling 400a on accelleration but dont know what I was pulling when it blew. 

I really dont know what to do next...

The last two pictures are the power board before power up.......


----------



## favguy (May 2, 2008)

Hi John,
It's a bummer to see this happening, please don't take this the wrong way, but you do seem to be trying to re-invent the wheel a bit. Would you not be better off buying an Open Revolt kit, rather than throwing more money at your controller, which may be short lived if you do get it working? The Revolt has been developed and beta tested to such a level now that it can be considered very reliable.

Just a thought, please don't shoot me!


----------



## johnsiddle (Jun 22, 2011)

favguy said:


> Hi John,
> It's a bummer to see this happening, please don't take this the wrong way, but you do seem to be trying to re-invent the wheel a bit. Would you not be better off buying an Open Revolt kit, rather than throwing more money at your controller, which may be short lived if you do get it working? The Revolt has been developed and beta tested to such a level now that it can be considered very reliable.
> 
> Just a thought, please don't shoot me!


I take your point but the power side of my controller is the same as the OpenRevolt except that I have ten fet drivers instead of one.
The current limiting cct is copied from the OpenRevolt controller.
I have a dedicated pic chip to generate the PWM signal instead of the Arduino that is doing other things besides PWM generation so is simpler.

Some time ago some one suggested using IGBT's but I dont know if he was advocating the use of one big IGBT module or ten smaller IGBT devices instead of MOSFETS.
If you look close at the MOSFETs that have blown they have actually blown holes in the heatsink...

I believe the OpenRevolt comes from the States so we would get tied up with customs.... 

I am open to suggestions.
I have sent an email to Pluginsure asking him to cancel my insurance and I will start again with it when I have sorted things.


----------



## favguy (May 2, 2008)

Hi John,

the Open Revolt does come from the US, no customs hassle at all, $660 (£440) delivered and the seller (Paul Holmes) will help you with the shipping value to minimise customs fee (my fee came in at about £30 I think).

Anyway, good luck whatever you choose to do, be nice to see you on the road soon.


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## johnsiddle (Jun 22, 2011)

favguy said:


> Hi John,
> 
> the Open Revolt does come from the US, no customs hassle at all, $660 (£440) delivered and the seller (Paul Holmes) will help you with the shipping value to minimise customs fee (my fee came in at about £30 I think).
> 
> Anyway, good luck whatever you choose to do, be nice to see you on the road soon.


Thnks for that Mate.
Did the controller come fully built and working or was it a kit or just the bare PCB's and the bits sourced locally???

I am thinking one last attempt at my controller with mods to the current trip cct, I am thinking it is too harsh when it restores power having reduced it to zero. I am thinking of using it to reduce the current by reducing the rev, by over-riding the throttle pot rather than cutting them, then allowing a slowish return. 
The judder I experienced, I thought my drive train had siezed up and the wheels were skidding along the road. (Not possible I know, the skidding bit)

I can not decide weather to go for ten 120A (peak) at 1000v IGBT devices or the ten 130A (continuous) 200v Mosfets I used last time.

I would love to see me on the road soon and not just the little culdesac I live in....


----------



## favguy (May 2, 2008)

The kit comes complete ready for self building, nothing else is needed, it is of exceptional quality with very nice PCB's. Comprehensive build instructions and walk through video are available at http://www.paulandsabrinasevstuff.com/ 

I sound like an advert! but I'm over the moon with mine, it's just great.


----------



## johnsiddle (Jun 22, 2011)

favguy said:


> The kit comes complete ready for self building, nothing else is needed, it is of exceptional quality with very nice PCB's. Comprehensive build instructions and walk through video are available at http://www.paulandsabrinasevstuff.com/
> 
> I sound like an advert! but I'm over the moon with mine, it's just great.


Brillient.
I will remember this for later but hope not to need it. I am glad it is as good as you say.
What is your conversion, have you a link to it? Where did you get your insurance from?

I have decided on one last attempt at my system, I am going to fit 10 x 75A 600v IGBT's, reduce the drivers to two with the inputs and outputs connected together for 12A drive and operate them from the 16v rail I have available. This will mean my max current is going to be set at about 500A

I am just modifying my cct diagram to cater for lowering the throttle setting when an over current is detected, I think this is kinder to the electronics, I will still have drive but not so much of it,
I shall still retain my panic cct to kill the contactor if I get over current for longer than 1.6secs.


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## favguy (May 2, 2008)

Hi John,
My conversion is here: 

http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showthread.php/my-project-favelec-58958.html

So far I've just got the car on my Motor trader policy list, it covers me for anything I own or drive. For individual insurance Pluginsure are popular, but annoyingly, they won't offer agreed value. A-plan & Adrian Flux might help as they do custom/kit cars and classics, I think you need to talk to the right person to get sense out of them though.


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## johnsiddle (Jun 22, 2011)

favguy said:


> Hi John,
> My conversion is here:
> 
> http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showthread.php/my-project-favelec-58958.html
> ...


I have just finished reading the whole thread and have to echo all the good comments from the other guys.
I feel like ripping my system out and starting again, your conversion is FANTASTIC..

The insurers that Pluginsure used have just pulled out of the motor market but Pluginsure reckon they will find another insurer. We will see when I apply to insure again next time, he is going to cancel the insurance I have. Its a waste when the car is just stuck in the drive.
Going to bed now at almost 2am that was a long thread.


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## johnsiddle (Jun 22, 2011)

Well it looks like I have finally sorted my controller... well almost.

After several major blow ups the last one I believe due to my crossing the 144v with the isolated 12v, the car has been up the road at high speed several times. Not much I know but a record for me.

The turning point seems to have been my using IGBT's instead of Mosfets and realising that my current sensor was on the -144v cable the wrong way round (current went up the voltage of the sensor went down).

I need some advice now, my steering pump/motor is drawing about 10A from the system 12v batteries, the modified computer PSU I was using is not up to the job and is not maintaining the system 12v.

Can anyone tell me where I can get a 12v charger capable of at least 10amps that will run off a 144v DC supply. A 15v 10A or more PSU would work as long as it will run off DC.
I am using a 15V PSU and ext charger/regulator for when I am plugged into the mains, but it will not run off DC.

How are you guy's doing it????


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## skooler (Mar 26, 2011)

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/EV-DC-to-...12?pt=US_Power_Inverters_&hash=item19cb21e8b8

Use this with a 8A+ toroid inductor and a power diode on the input. Worked a treat in my RX8 when I was running lead.

That seller is legit.


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## johnsiddle (Jun 22, 2011)

skooler said:


> http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/EV-DC-to-...12?pt=US_Power_Inverters_&hash=item19cb21e8b8
> 
> Use this with a 8A+ toroid inductor and a power diode on the input. Worked a treat in my RX8 when I was running lead.
> 
> That seller is legit.


Thanks mate. that looks good.
Why did you use a toroid and a power diode?
John


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## skooler (Mar 26, 2011)

johnsiddle said:


> Thanks mate. that looks good.
> Why did you use a toroid and a power diode?
> John


A bridge rectifier is a cheap and effective way of doing the input diode.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/KBPC5006-...al_Components_Supplies_ET&hash=item43c01a16d4


Inductor should be the toroid type - roughly 100uH. You'll pull a maximum of about 3amps on the input but overspeccing it a bit won't hurt.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/BOURNS-PM...al_Components_Supplies_ET&hash=item3f2995489b

I recommend getting a pack of spare fuses and keeping them in the car just in case!

Hope this helps.

Cheers,

Mike


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## johnsiddle (Jun 22, 2011)

*Insuring my 2001 Volvo V40.... HELPPPPPP....*

Hi Guy's
Well at long last my EV Volvo is finished, apart from the heater which dont count.

I now need to insure it and I have just been told by Brendon that Pluginsure no longer insures home EV's... bummmer....

Any idea's who else I can go to.

it will be a shame if after all the time and expense I won't be able to get it on the road....


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## johnsiddle (Jun 22, 2011)

skooler said:


> http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/EV-DC-to-...12?pt=US_Power_Inverters_&hash=item19cb21e8b8
> 
> Use this with a 8A+ toroid inductor and a power diode on the input. Worked a treat in my RX8 when I was running lead.
> 
> That seller is legit.


I went a different way in the end, I found a posting about a CCPower C400 that someone bought but said it was rubbish but he posted pretty much the circuit diagram, it was basically a chip manufacturers application diagram.

I copied it and made a few changes to it and I now have got 29amps from it at about 13.5v. it makes a fantastic difference to my power steering.
It didn't cost much, used mostly bits salvaged from old PC power supplies apart from the transformer and chip.
Regards John

I will post details later for anyone who is interested


----------



## skooler (Mar 26, 2011)

*Re: Insuring my 2001 Volvo V40.... HELPPPPPP....*

Hi John,

Congrats, you'll need to send your logbook off to the dvla with a few photos and a letter from a garage saying it is safe etc. in order to get the tax class changed.

Same problem with pluginsure. I'm now insured through Adrian Flux, cost me £800 for the RX8 this year compared to £550 the year before!



johnsiddle said:


> Hi Guy's
> Well at long last my EV Volvo is finished, apart from the heater which dont count.
> 
> I now need to insure it and I have just been told by Brendon that Pluginsure no longer insures home EV's... bummmer....
> ...


----------



## johnsiddle (Jun 22, 2011)

*Re: Insuring my 2001 Volvo V40.... HELPPPPPP....*



skooler said:


> Hi John,
> 
> Congrats, you'll need to send your logbook off to the dvla with a few photos and a letter from a garage saying it is safe etc. in order to get the tax class changed.
> 
> Same problem with pluginsure. I'm now insured through Adrian Flux, cost me £800 for the RX8 this year compared to £550 the year before!


Wow £800 that is steep, and obviously a con.
Thanks for the info.
I will see what they quote tomorrow, do they allow your NCD?
regards John


----------



## skooler (Mar 26, 2011)

*Re: Insuring my 2001 Volvo V40.... HELPPPPPP....*



johnsiddle said:


> Wow £800 that is steep, and obviously a con.
> Thanks for the info.
> I will see what they quote tomorrow, do they allow your NCD?
> regards John


Very steep but I simply couldn't find anyone else that would insure it!

They took my no claims discount on the RX8 onto the policy (2 years) and also 'noted' that I have 5 years NCD on the gas guzzler.

Cheers,

Mike


----------



## johnsiddle (Jun 22, 2011)

*Re: Insuring my 2001 Volvo V40.... HELPPPPPP....*



skooler said:


> Very steep but I simply couldn't find anyone else that would insure it!
> 
> They took my no claims discount on the RX8 onto the policy (2 years) and also 'noted' that I have 5 years NCD on the gas guzzler.
> 
> ...


Hi mike.
I have just got insured with Adrian Flux £409 Fully Comp and they took my 5yrs NCD from my Hilux Surf ( another Diesel Guzzler).
So I am well pleased with that.

Pluginsure was charging £375 about 3 months ago and they were not interested in my NCD.

So all I have to do is get it MOT'd then fight the taxman.... Yippeee!!!


----------



## skooler (Mar 26, 2011)

*Re: Insuring my 2001 Volvo V40.... HELPPPPPP....*



johnsiddle said:


> Hi mike.
> I have just got insured with Adrian Flux £409 Fully Comp


Git! Sometimes I hate being young!


----------



## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

*Re: Insuring my 2001 Volvo V40.... HELPPPPPP....*



skooler said:


> Git! Sometimes I hate being young!


Small price to pay. 
Sometimes being young has advantages. I am incapacitated today by minor knock on my aging elbow.


----------



## johnsiddle (Jun 22, 2011)

*Re: Insuring my 2001 Volvo V40.... HELPPPPPP....*



skooler said:


> Git! Sometimes I hate being young!


Sorry.... You wont say that when you are as old as me.


By the way my grand daughters partner was refused cover by Sainsburys and others because he tried to include me on his insurance. He is 28 and I am 70+.

So work that one out....


----------



## johnsiddle (Jun 22, 2011)

*Re: Insuring my 2001 Volvo V40.... HELPPPPPP....*



Woodsmith said:


> Small price to pay.
> Sometimes being young has advantages. I am incapacitated today by minor knock on my aging elbow.


What you been up to now Woody??????


----------



## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

*Re: Insuring my 2001 Volvo V40.... HELPPPPPP....*



johnsiddle said:


> What you been up to now Woody??????


Nothing much.

On Monday morning I leaned back in the chair at a cafe and banged my elbow on a bit of protruding dado rail behind me. It was minor, nothing really, and it missed my funny bone. I didn't think much more of it other then a brief 'Ouch!'.

Then I spent the afternoon winding the handle on an apple masher and then pressing apples to get juice to make cider for our wedding.
Afterwards I was left with lots of pain and stiffness in the joint that became worse overnight. It was painful bending and extending my elbow and also rotating my wrist or carrying anything.

A simple thing that lost me the useful use of a limb for a while.

It is better today with plenty of pain killers.


----------



## johnsiddle (Jun 22, 2011)

*Re: Insuring my 2001 Volvo V40.... HELPPPPPP....*



Woodsmith said:


> Nothing much.
> 
> On Monday morning I leaned back in the chair at a cafe and banged my elbow on a bit of protruding dado rail behind me. It was minor, nothing really, and it missed my funny bone. I didn't think much more of it other then a brief 'Ouch!'.
> 
> ...


I hope it gets better soon.
When you getting wed?


----------



## johnsiddle (Jun 22, 2011)

*Re: Converting my 2001 Volvo V40... MOT Wed*

MOT booked for Wednesday, lets hope I make it this time.
The wife is going to follow in her car in case I dont make it back......

FINGERS CROSSED>>>>>


----------



## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

Good luck!


----------



## johnsiddle (Jun 22, 2011)

*Re: Converting my 2001 Volvo V40 RED LETTER DAY*

Well I made it to the testing station OK.... and BACK... thats a bonus in its self.
I got up to 35mph on the way back, good enough in a 30 zone.

Anyway the car failed but only minor.
1, He didn't like my HID headlights at least in the dipped beam position so I am putting some normal bulbs in and will change them out after.

2. One of the Anti-roll bar linkages has a split rubber boot so I have ordered a new pair.

So all in all a good day, neither of these probs really have anything to do with the conversion. 
He has also signed a letter for me stating the car has been converted to a good standard and confirmed that all aspects of the ICE have been removed and replaced by electric ones.
He wont give me it tho until I get the re-test done which is not a problem, so we are on our way......


----------



## skooler (Mar 26, 2011)

Sweet work!


----------



## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

Well done!


----------



## johnsiddle (Jun 22, 2011)

Thanks Guy's

MOT retest run today all OK, ran out of charge on the way back, I think I forgot to put it back on charge after the first trip.

All my displays went out, the last I saw was 50v but I managed to creeeeeep home. prior to that I got 40mph on the straight.

I dont think I am going to have much range which is a bit disappointing but we will see.

Going to Shrewsbury next week to the local(ish only about 26miles away) DVLA office to see what the dvla has to say.
Wish me luck...


----------



## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

Good luck with that. 

Have you identified a charging point at DVLA for your return trip top up?


----------



## johnsiddle (Jun 22, 2011)

Woodsmith said:


> Good luck with that.
> 
> Have you identified a charging point at DVLA for your return trip top up?


Dont think it will get that far under its own steam.
I am hoping I dont have to take it there.

I have a 600w generator I am thinking of carrying in the boot, than I can sit by the side of the road for an hour or two while charge up.


----------



## johnsiddle (Jun 22, 2011)

How is the elbo by the way????


----------



## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

johnsiddle said:


> How is the elbow by the way????


Still sore and limiting what I can do. Added to which is a sore kneecap so I can't kneel down.

Maybe I just need to drink more wine!


----------



## johnsiddle (Jun 22, 2011)

Woodsmith said:


> Still sore and limiting what I can do. Added to which is a sore kneecap so I can't kneel down.
> 
> Maybe I just need to drink more wine!


Too much grovelling to Arch I feel, unless it's housemaids knee of course....

Went all the way to Shrewsbury DVLA office today only to find they have closed it down.
It is still on their website tho as a local office...... swines.

I am posting it to the Manchester Office now.


----------



## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

johnsiddle said:


> Too much grovelling to Arch I feel, unless it's housemaids knee of course....
> 
> Went all the way to Shrewsbury DVLA office today only to find they have closed it down.
> It is still on their website tho as a local office...... swines.
> ...


It's housemaid's knee.

Are you sure the Manchester office is still open?


----------



## johnsiddle (Jun 22, 2011)

Woodsmith said:


> It's housemaid's knee.
> 
> Are you sure the Manchester office is still open?


Dont tell me that, I have posted it now.
The address came up on the DVLA website, but then so did the Shrewsbury office.
I sent it guaranteed before 1pm yesterday so it should be there.
I will have to check on the tracking number.

I sent it to swansea first but they sent it back saying I had to send it to a local office, so who know's.


----------



## johnsiddle (Jun 22, 2011)

johnsiddle said:


> Dont tell me that, I have posted it now.
> The address came up on the DVLA website, but then so did the Shrewsbury office.
> I sent it guaranteed before 1pm yesterday so it should be there.
> I will have to check on the tracking number.
> ...


You are not going to believe this.

The package has been automatically re-directed to Swansea and was delivered an signed for this morning (probably by a cleaner)....
What a load of [email protected]~:?ers.....


----------



## johnsiddle (Jun 22, 2011)

*Re: Converting my 2001 Volvo V40... Yippeeeee*

Yippeee, 
I am the proud owner of a fully ZERO rated, taxed fully road legal electric car.
My road tax came today....

I shall be on the road tomorrow seeing what the beastie can do....

I might have to tweek my charging system tho, I noticed that my batteries had settled to about 12.6v whilst I waited for my tax instead of being maintained at around 13.8 volts.

This might not seem much but it represents a lot of power, it will be easy to fix tho I just need to change a resistor on the three regulators.
But this is not going to stop me driving around the village with a big smile on my face......


----------



## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

Fantastic! And well done!


I really have to get the tractor road legal, just to have an EV on the road until I get back on with the trike.


----------



## johnsiddle (Jun 22, 2011)

Well Done..... well yes and no.
I noticed that my batteries were only sitting at 12.0v except for a bank of four which were at about 12.75.
I went for a little drive and only just made it back home again.... obviously the batteries were not charged.

So I checked my charge current and it was only 2a and the available voltage was only about 48v, so in my charge cct I have a single wire on which I vary an electronic resistor to control the charging.
So I disconnected this on all three chargers and the charge went up to 8 amps.... GOOD I thought.
But I forgot that in this configuration the charge voltage of 4X12v can go up to more than 59v. Above 59v the 50v power supply that feeds the charger dont like it.

Guess what, the bank that had the highest voltage on to start with, got to the blowup point first and pooof I am now repairing its power supply.

Not to worry some small MOSFETS and cheap transistors on the way.

I did go out onto the road last light before the blowup and had about 156v available and it went well, skidding the front wheels on the damp road at take off.
The torque is fantastic, I have to accelerate quite slowly.


----------



## johnsiddle (Jun 22, 2011)

How is the knee....???


----------



## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

Shame about the charger. I hope it fixes ok.
I guess you are still planning on a set of better batteries at some point.


johnsiddle said:


> How is the knee....???


Knee is fine, left elbow is still painful and getting no better.


----------



## johnsiddle (Jun 22, 2011)

*Re: Converting my 2001 Volvo V40...... Latest*

Hi Guy's.
I thought I would update you on the latest for my car.

A couple of months ago British Gas very kindly fitted me with my very own Type 1 16amp EV charge point completely FREE. If you want a 32amp one it will cost you £150, so I said gimme free.
These will be fitted free until 2015, you don't have to have an EV (just tell them you are thinking of buying a Nissan Leaf) or be a British Gas customer, you just go to their EV website and fill out an application form and a very nice lady will ring you up and arrange a fitting date.
Well it took me a while to work out how to use it and to find a suitable Type 1 socket that didn't cost the earth.

In the UK they cost from £62 to £82 plus shipping.
Eventually I found one on AliDirect for about £38 delivered free from China.

Making it work is easy, you just fit an 880 ohm or thereabouts, resister from the CP point to earth and when you switch it on 5 secs later it goes live.
If you unplug the car without switching it off, it just goes safe until you switch it off then when you switch it back on it starts to charge again.
Some pictures posted.

My car generally is a bit of a disappointment, the 88AH batteries are not up to the job and I think one of them is failing, I have ordered one of those high current testers the garages use to test it. 
The off line voltage is good at 156volts but as soon as you draw current the voltage drops to about 132volts and then proceeds to go down. 
I knew the 88AH batteries were small but I was limited to the space I had to fit them without cutting major holes in the boot, something Woody warned me about. 
In the end the car was not inspected by any DVLA guy's, only the local garage.
So I only really manage to use it around the village and only for one trip at a time.
I wish I could afford a set of Lithiums, have they dropped in price lately???

Thats about it, except that the local MOT tester did not like my HID bulbs in the dipped position, he said they had too much scatter so I put normal ones back in, the high beam ones are OK though.

Thats about it for now.


----------



## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

Good to know you are still running the car, mine is going to be a long, long way off yet.

Also good that there was no inspection, that means you can now make further adjustments without, hopefully, anyone noticing or caring so long as the insurance if ok about it.
Have a chat with Skooler about lithium batteries, he has a website here.

Well done on the free charging point.


----------



## johnsiddle (Jun 22, 2011)

Woodsmith said:


> Good to know you are still running the car, mine is going to be a long, long way off yet.
> 
> Also good that there was no inspection, that means you can now make further adjustments without, hopefully, anyone noticing or caring so long as the insurance if ok about it.
> Have a chat with Skooler about lithium batteries, he has a website here.
> ...


Hi Woody.
How is married life treating you? good I hope.

I had a quick look at indra Lithiums are still looking expensive.

The insurance nor anyone else know what's in the car, its declared home produced so it has what I put in it.
About the only mod I can think of is the batteries which I can not afford right now.
I haven't sorted the heater either and its starting to get cold outside.

I think my next project is going to be an old scooter I have, it has busted front forks at the moment but I fancy experimenting with an AC motor going thro the existing variable drive gearbox but I might have to go DC as there is not much space to store lots of batteries, unless I can find a low voltage three phase motor. I have a 3hp, 3ph motor in the garage but it would be to big and heavy for a scooter. 
Maybe I will keep it for a future project a small car.

I was a bit disappointed that the tax disc is no more, I cant display my ZERO rated tax anymore still I wonder how much someone will pay for it on Ebay, I understand there is quite a market for old tax disc's.

Anyway best of luck with the tractor.
speak soon
John


----------



## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

johnsiddle said:


> Hi Woody.
> How is married life treating you? good I hope.


Best thing I've ever done, getting married to Arch. 
She is a wonderful wife and I an very happy.


I am planning on using Lithiums for my truck build, I guess I don't need many as I am only looking at 72v and short range, but it will still be about half my build budget.


----------



## johnsiddle (Jun 22, 2011)

Woodsmith said:


> Best thing I've ever done, getting married to Arch.
> She is a wonderful wife and I an very happy.
> 
> 
> I am planning on using Lithiums for my truck build, I guess I don't need many as I am only looking at 72v and short range, but it will still be about half my build budget.


Give my congrats to Arch and hope she is as happy as you are.

My battery tester came today, it loads 250amps on the batteries, I tested all 12 of mine and they all showed up as good, even the additional two 12v system batteries tested good even tho they are really old.
So my poor range must be down to them not being good enough.
If I decide to convert a small corsa type of car they will be OK on there if I can find enough space to put them. Until then I will stick with them.


----------



## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

johnsiddle said:


> Give my congrats to Arch and hope she is as happy as you are.


Cheers, will do.


Do you know what current you are drawing when pulling away and when running at steady speed?


----------



## johnsiddle (Jun 22, 2011)

Woodsmith said:


> Cheers, will do.
> 
> 
> Do you know what current you are drawing when pulling away and when running at steady speed?


about 150 amps when pulling away and 60 to 80 amps when running.
I find 2nd gear is more efficient than 1st.
In 1st I seem to have my foot down hard most of the time where as in 2nd I find I have more control but I still get good acceleration when needed.
I guess the current draw in 2nd is higher.


----------



## johnsiddle (Jun 22, 2011)

*2001 Volvo V40 MOT FAILED....*

Recently took the Volvo for its second MOT and it failed, one of the rear springs had snapped the bottom coil off.
It seems the other side had already been replaced as it still had a plastic label hanging on a coil.
So I guess it wasn't due to the weight of the batteries.

Only had a couple of days before the MOT ran out so I let the garage replace it, big bucks....

never mind.

The batteries are still getting weaker, I am not sure why but the just off charge voltage is now only about 144v despite the trickle charge voltage of just over 14v per battery. When I started out my just off charge voltage was up near 160v

I heard a rumour that Lithiums are dropping in price, any one know if its true?


----------



## skooler (Mar 26, 2011)

Nope. No price drop on lithium whatsoever. Uk is still £1 per ah per cell (3.2v)


----------



## johnsiddle (Jun 22, 2011)

skooler said:


> Nope. No price drop on lithium whatsoever. Uk is still £1 per ah per cell (3.2v)


Oh goody, I only need 47 of them at about 100Ah each.... £4700...Must do the lotto.

I friend of mine sell's motor cycles and he was saying that batteries for them had dropped.
I will have to investigate further.
Will let you know.

Happy New Year to everyone.!!!!


----------



## jackbauer (Jan 12, 2008)

I have a pack of headways sitting in the garage looking for a good home. Not a million miles away


----------



## johnsiddle (Jun 22, 2011)

jackbauer said:


> I have a pack of headways sitting in the garage looking for a good home. Not a million miles away


Which ones and how many?


----------



## jackbauer (Jan 12, 2008)

40160s cells. 52s4p.


----------



## johnsiddle (Jun 22, 2011)

jackbauer said:


> 40160s cells. 52s4p.


Sadly 15AH is a bit small I fear.
Thanks anyway.


----------



## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

johnsiddle said:


> Sadly 15AH is a bit small I fear.


4p = 4 cells in parallel, so approx. 60-64Ah at 15-16Ah per cell.


----------



## johnsiddle (Jun 22, 2011)

Tesseract said:


> 4p = 4 cells in parallel, so approx. 60-64Ah at 15-16Ah per cell.


Thank you I did wonder what numbers and letters were, I assumed it was a Headway part number.
I know nothing about Lithiums other than how they are made.
I guess I should be addressing this post to Jack.

So does this mean there are 52 sets of 4 in series making about 166 volts at 60-65Ah?
I wonder how good they would be in my Volvo. It tends to pull about 50 to 70 amps on the flat with up to about 120/150 on acceleration. 
My 88AH leads are flat within about 3-4 miles. I suspect these are very much lighter than the 12 leads.

All of a sudden I am interested, which part of Ireland are you in Jack and cost?


----------



## jackbauer (Jan 12, 2008)

Yep 54 in series and 4 in parallel  am on the east coast. I was getting about 25-30 miles in my E36. Shouldn't be a problem with the amps i was pulling 500 on hard accelerations. Not sure about cost to be honest. drop me a pm and we'll work it out.


----------



## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

That sounds like a plan! 
Be goo to see your Volvo running on Jack's lithiums.

Happy new year to you all.


----------



## johnsiddle (Jun 22, 2011)

Well its been a long time since I updated this project.

The latest is that the Lead Acids are real rubbish now and I have taken the car off the road whilst I consider my Lithium options.

Playing the lottery didn't work so now I am looking at Lithium Ion batteries more specifically 18650's especially as I found out that Tesla uses them (all 6000 odd of them). I reckon I would need about 1200 of them ( in 5000mah size ) in various combinations of S and P to give me about 160volts and what ever AH they managed. 
With this voltage I could use my existing three chargers set at the max cell voltage of 4.2v and about 12 sheets (to use the Tesla terminology) to give me about 55v.
I might build some timer circuits or current sensors to turn them off when max voltage is reached or charge current goes down to near zero.

I have bought 20 of these Red Ultrafire cells to play around with and I am in the process of building a capacitor welding system. I have 500 nickel plated steel strips coming from china as well as constant voltage/current controller pcb's.
I could make these from transistors but cannot be bothered for the odd fiver they are costing me.

I was reading that to cool these things it might be better to seal them in an oil bath and pump the oil thro a small radiator rather than try to blow hot air around them. Seeing as these cells are barrel shaped the oil would get round them better than air. Not sure what oil I would use tho.

So thats it for now any comments or idea's will be highly appreciated.


----------



## skooler (Mar 26, 2011)

We've had a play with the ultrafires. In short they are naff! Came in Massively under capacity and dont seem to last.


----------



## johnsiddle (Jun 22, 2011)

skooler said:


> We've had a play with the ultrafires. In short they are naff! Came in Massively under capacity and dont seem to last.


Thanks mate, did you try any others?


----------



## skooler (Mar 26, 2011)

Samsung or panasonic for 18650s.

Used nissan leaf cells are the best bet these days - we picked up one pack for £800!!!


----------



## johnsiddle (Jun 22, 2011)

skooler said:


> Samsung or panasonic for 18650s.
> 
> Used nissan leaf cells are the best bet these days - we picked up one pack for £800!!!


Where can you get those from, I have searched but do not really know where to look.
Were they any good and can you split them?


----------



## skooler (Mar 26, 2011)

Ebay! Never had the bottle to make a wholenpack from 18650s!


----------



## johnsiddle (Jun 22, 2011)

johnsiddle said:


> Where can you get those from, I have searched but do not really know where to look.
> Were they any good and can you split them?


Sorry, I mean the Nissan ones.
Where can you get the Nissan Leaf batts, i have had a look around but dont really know where to look for them.
what Voltage/power are they?


----------



## skooler (Mar 26, 2011)

Its pot luck being honest. Ebay, breakers yards, auctions etc. Just keep an eye open


----------



## johnsiddle (Jun 22, 2011)

skooler said:


> Its pot luck being honest. Ebay, breakers yards, auctions etc. Just keep an eye open


Ok, thanks.


----------



## favguy (May 2, 2008)

@ Mike,

Wow, you were lucky to find that Leaf pack on ebay, I've been checking every few days on there (and everywhere else!) and never yet seen a pack for sale in the UK without a salvage car to go with it, that is until the London based chap popped up with one on here the other day!

@ John, Nice to see you around, I also agree a used Leaf pack is the way to go (if you can find one!) Why don't you give the guy with the Leaf pack for sale on here a PM and see how flexible on price he is?


----------



## johnsiddle (Jun 22, 2011)

favguy said:


> @ Mike,
> 
> 
> 
> @ John, Nice to see you around, I also agree a used Leaf pack is the way to go (if you can find one!) Why don't you give the guy with the Leaf pack for sale on here a PM and see how flexible on price he is?


Is that the guy you PM'd me about or is there someone else?
Regards


----------



## johnsiddle (Jun 22, 2011)

favguy said:


> @ Mike,
> 
> Wow, you were lucky to find that Leaf pack on ebay, I've been checking every few days on there (and everywhere else!) and never yet seen a pack for sale in the UK without a salvage car to go with it, that is until the London based chap popped up with one on here the other day!
> 
> @ John, Nice to see you around, I also agree a used Leaf pack is the way to go (if you can find one!) Why don't you give the guy with the Leaf pack for sale on here a PM and see how flexible on price he is?


hi Mate.
Did you get my PM to you just now saying I have sent a message to the guy in the PM you sent me.
It just that when I send PM's I get no indication they have gone anywhere.
Likewise the guy (alex) on here.
I dont know if my PM's are working.
regards


----------



## favguy (May 2, 2008)

Got it, & replied


----------



## johnsiddle (Jun 22, 2011)

Hi Paul.
Just read thro your upgrade to lithium, do I understand that you discarded all the other stuff that came with the pack (BMS and steel case etc) and just used the bare battery units mounted in your own cases, I assume the silver ones that look like flight cases.
What is that red cable that runs between the buss bars?
So I wont end up trying to fit the 1.3mtr X 1mtr X .25mtr in one big blob.

Do you leave your batteries on effective trickle charge or is there a switch off when max voltage is reached or a timer?

Currently my leads are divided into three 48 volt blocks and charged with three 54v power supplies which are current limited to max 9amps.
They are currently set at about 57v to give me 14.5v per cell.
When the cells reach this the current drops to near zero so I just leave them connected all the time.

Putting these power supplies in series and each set the same will give me the 134.4v at 9 amps (8.4v per twin block), at 8.4v per twin pack the current should be at zero.
So I am assuming they could be left connected.

I may be totally wrong on this, I have no experience of Lithium's.
Regards John


----------



## favguy (May 2, 2008)

Hi John,

Sorry for the delay in replying, I've been working some odd hours and trying to catch up on sleep.

Firstly, you are totally wrong on the charging! Please forget everything regarding trickle charging and that old lead stuff before you start!! Lithiums should never be left on trickle charge, ever. The current you mention that has dropped almost to zero is good for lead, you want it fully charged and then a little, but it will damage lithium, and unlike lead, damaged lithium can catch fire, the Leaf module chemistry more so than Lifepo4!

As you have no lithium experience, I'd advise firstly getting up to speed about these batteries and the need for correct battery management/monitoring before you get too involved. Incorrectly treated these things really can and sometimes do burn peoples cars and garages to ash! A good example is what has recently happened to Jack Rickard over at EVTV where a neglected pack of similar cells almost destroyed his workshop. 

The most important things with lithium is to avoid overcharging any of the cells/modules, and also not to over-discharge. This can be done in several ways & with different types of BMS monitoring/maintenance systems. There are many pros and cons to consider as to which way you want to go with this. A search on here for top balance vs. bottom balance, or BMS vs. no BMS will bring up much reading on this. However you decide to approach it, you have to respect lithium much more than lead as it can burn your car up if you don't!!

To get you started on lithium care. They don't like being kept full, for long life, undercharge a bit if you don't need full range, (80% is really good), and if not using the car for extended periods, leave the battery at between 60% and 70%. Do this in our cool UK climate and they'll live a very long life. Also keep away from a fully discharged state, personally I'd want to keep a minimum of 15% charge in them at all times, but at least 10% is good. 

I'll answer your questions on my own system and how I handle the batteries. Please bear in mind I run without an active balancing BMS. I passively monitor and have warning & drive disconnect systems to protect the modules against over-discharge, but it's not idiot-proofed as no one else drives it but me. Also, I'm currently top balanced, arguably bottom balanced is more idiot proof 

The red link wires you see on my module packs are linking the sets of three modules together at the cell interconnect terminal. As each module is actually made up of a series of 2 cells, this is just to ensure balance between the individual cells when made up into a battery of 3. 

My battery is just 1 series string of 18 module sets (of 3's), and I just use one, 2.5Kw, TCCH charger. This charges to a Maximum voltage of 151v. I have a 230v programmable voltmeter in circuit attached to the charger. This is powered by the charge port and I can use it to cut the charger off at any voltage below the maximum.

So, this is how I set up and manage my battery. 

Firstly, I top balanced each cell set to exactly 4.2v using an individual lithium charger. Then to avoid the risk of any damage to the cells, I only charge the battery to 4.15v per cell, 149.4v maximum if I need full range. For daily use, I set the programmable voltmeter to 4.1v per cell, or 147.6v. So far, the pack has stayed in exact balance using this method.

Secondly, I don't go anywhere near the bottom of the battery. Using a JLD404 I measure Ah's out. This is reset after charging to full and has a relay to switch in a flashing battery light & warning buzzer after 140Ah is used. At 150Ah it switches in a second relay that adds a 1k ohm resistor across the throttle, which in my system limits throttle response to 1/5th power. I can override this by resetting the JLD if needed for emergency short distance travel following this.

Thirdly, I have an array of LED bargraphs that display the current voltage of each of the 18 module sets, along with any balance discrepancy, or if any of the modules starts to separate from the pack and drop away in voltage as it reaches empty. This never happens in my case, as I don't go anywhere near the bottom!

This works well for me, but wouldn't suit a less hands on driver I suspect! 

Not sure what you mean about silver flight cases?? But I did dump most of the original battery metalwork, just utilising the end plates and some of the strapping metal, (modified) for clamping the sets together. My battery was different to the Leafs, as it was actually a Renault fluence pack using the same modules inside. (So you'll have different bits left over)

Personally, I would buy a decent charger rather than trying to re-use your power supplies. You can order a lithium charger from TCCH in China specified with 10 pre-programmed voltages to suit exactly for very reasonable cost. (This will also save you messing about like I did with a programmable voltmeter). 

Paul


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## johnsiddle (Jun 22, 2011)

Hi Paul.
Thanks for the information.

Funny thing happened the site wouldn't let me edit or start a new post until I activated my account, weird since I have been on this site for a couple of years without any problems.

To get back to your post, the flight cases I mentioned are the two Large silver/aluminium cases that appear to be mounted possibly under the rear seats.

There is a lot of useful/valuable info there I plan on cutting and printing it so I have it handy, is your pack 180Ah ie:18 X 3cells assuming the cell are 60Ah.
I assume the Renault pack has a 54 cells whereas the Leaf only has 48.
I keep seeing people mentioning the JLD404, I must google it as I have no idea what this is.

Thanks again for most informative post.
John


Any


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## favguy (May 2, 2008)

Hi John,

Ah, I see what you mean by flight cases, I suppose they do look a bit like that! they are just sets of cells clamped together using end plates that came in the original battery actually!

My battery was also 48 modules, just like the leaf but in a different case layout. I bought an additional 6 modules and added them to get the voltage I wanted as my controller is 144v-156v. 

The JLD404 is a great piece of kit, PM me if you decide to buy one and I'll let you know the most cost effective place to get one from


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## johnsiddle (Jun 22, 2011)

*Re: Converting my 2001 Volvo V40 Whooo Hooo*

Whoo Hoo!!!!
Just took delivery of a Vauxhall Ampera Lithium Pack, now the fun begins.....
Thanks Favguy..


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## johnsiddle (Jun 22, 2011)

This link takes you to the Chevy Battery page which shows what I have done with the Ampera pack so far.
The next post's will be back on here.

http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showthread.php?p=715722#post715722

John


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## johnsiddle (Jun 22, 2011)

favguy said:


> My battery is just 1 series string of 18 module sets (of 3's), and I just use one, 2.5Kw, TCCH charger. This charges to a Maximum voltage of 151v. I have a 230v programmable voltmeter in circuit attached to the charger. This is powered by the charge port and I can use it to cut the charger off at any voltage below the maximum.
> 
> 
> 
> Paul


Hi Paul
I have just been re-reading your post and as usual I have confused myself.
You say you have one battery string of 18 modules which by my calculation if charged to 4.2v per module equals 75.6v.
Where are you getting 151v from? Surely you would need 36 modules to get 151v

regards john


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## favguy (May 2, 2008)

Hello John 

My battery is made up of a total of 18 "sub batteries" if you like, each of these being 3 modules in parallel, then the 18 are connected in a series string. So I actually have a total of 54 modules giving in the region of 180Ah.

Remember though, that each Leaf/Renault module is itself made up of 4 cells, 2 in parallel, then 2 in series, so the voltage at full charge is up to 8.4v rather than the individual cell voltage of 4.2v. So 8.4v x 18 gives us 151.2v. In reality I don't charge past 4.1v per cell for longevity, so £147.6v total.

Hope this clarifies.

Best regards.

Paul


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## johnsiddle (Jun 22, 2011)

Sorry Paul, I thought your pack was the same as the Chevy/Vauxhall pack I have.
It makes sense now.

Regards John


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## johnsiddle (Jun 22, 2011)

Well at long last the car is back on the road, this time powered by most of the battery from an Ampera/Chevy.

Straight off charge it reads 174v which dips to 160v (varies with current flow) when driving.
It has already trebled the range of my old leads even when they were new.
Just done 10miles and it is down to 168v with the throttle closed and ready to go back on charge.

What do you guys think is the lowest safe voltage I can go down to, the battery has 42 modules.?


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## Yabert (Feb 7, 2010)

Personally, I never discharge below 3,5v per cells with my 180v Volt battery.

From this discharge graph I've done at 1/8C, there is some capacity remaining bellow 3,5v, but IMHO don't play in this zone.


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## johnsiddle (Jun 22, 2011)

Yabert said:


> Personally, I never discharge below 3,5v per cells with my 180v Volt battery.
> 
> From this discharge graph I've done at 1/8C, there is some capacity remaining bellow 3,5v, but IMHO don't play in this zone.


Thanks Yabert, that puts my pack at 147v so that will be my minimum.

there is not a lot of change from max (4.159v per cell) 174.7 to (3.5v per cell ) 147v.

Does your voltage change when drawing current compared to zero current?
I am hoping my change is due to voltage drop in the cables and connections.

I have used a combination of the original flat cable that came with the battery pack and twin runs rear to front of welding cable compression clamped to eyelets.
These are clamped to the flat cable with stainless steel bolts and washers.

Regards John


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## Yabert (Feb 7, 2010)

johnsiddle said:


> Does your voltage change when drawing current compared to zero current?


Yes, a volt or two during normal driving (5 to 16 Kw or 30 to 90A from my 90 Ah battery).
But the voltage drop can reach 10-15v during hard acceleration (up to 125 Kw or up to 700A from my 90Ah battery).


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## johnsiddle (Jun 22, 2011)

Yabert said:


> Yes, a volt or two during normal driving (5 to 16 Kw or 30 to 90A from my 90 Ah battery).
> But the voltage drop can reach 10-15v during hard acceleration (up to 125 Kw or up to 700A from my 90Ah battery).


Thanks for that, my current doesn't get as high as yours, I limited mine when I built the controller to 350a following various blow ups in the early stages.
I cant be bothered to turn it back since 200a is about the max I use normally. Unless I try a boy racer take off and then I get a current limiting response which reminds me to slow down.

My pack is also 90Ah but at a lower voltage, so far things are looking good.

I do get stupidly high volt readings when driving (190v + ) but I think it must be the meter reading spikes. I will damp it down with a resistor and capacitor on the input to the meter later.
Thanks again.
John


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## johnsiddle (Jun 22, 2011)

*Re: Converting my 2001 Volvo V40.... BLOWN UP*

Oh well thats life.
After working faultlessly for a couple of months with the IGBT outputs I went for a spin this afternoon and after a couple of mis-fires... BANG like the drive shaft had broken or the current limiting had switched in, I quickly took it out of gear and could hear the motor spinning its head off.

Turned off and back on but now no drive at all and evidence of some ash on the inside of the controller case.

I am thinking the new Lithiums which start off charge at 171v and maintain it reasonably well are too powerful for my home made controller even with the current limited to 350amps. I was only pulling about 80amps at the time but had just gone up a small hill.
I think it could handle the old leads at a nominal 144v which dropped quite quickly.

I think I am now going to admit defeat and look for a professional controller able to handle at least 180v if anyone has any ideas.


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

*Re: Converting my 2001 Volvo V40.... BLOWN UP*

Hi John

I have been very impressed by the Paul & Sabrina controllers


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## johnsiddle (Jun 22, 2011)

*Re: Converting my 2001 Volvo V40.... BLOWN UP*



Duncan said:


> Hi John
> 
> I have been very impressed by the Paul & Sabrina controllers


Thanks Duncan.
I have been searching for them but all the links to the OpenRevo site appear to be lost and I couldnt find a website for them.
John


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## alvin (Jul 26, 2008)

Here is a link. https://pandspowerelectronics.ecwid.com/#!/P&S-Circuit-Boards/c/16287307


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## johnsiddle (Jun 22, 2011)

Hi Guy's
Which do you guy's think is a better option 10 x 130A/100A IGBT devices or one 1000A IGBT module?

To give a normal top wack of 500A.
I am getting fed up with banks of ten blowing up.


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## johnsiddle (Jun 22, 2011)

Decided to have one last chance at getting this home brew running reliably.
I have obtained two 600amp 1200v IGBT modules.
I have made a water cooled heatsink out of some 178mm X 130mm X 16mm ally plate, drilled thro the middle with four 10.5mm holes for four 10mm copper pipes brazed into 22mm copper pipe manifolds. (pictures to follow)
I then diluted some thermal grease with white spirit and flooded the .5mm clearance in the holes. The White Spirit is now evaporating leaving lots of grease around the pipes.

I plan on mounting two of these IGBT's on the heatsink and connecting them in parallel.

Do any of you have an opinion as to if the external (10 X 100amp) freewheeling diodes are required or will the diodes incorporated in the IGBT's be sufficient?

JS


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## johnsiddle (Jun 22, 2011)

Some pics of my water cooled heatsink and the radiator, cut down from and aircon radiator.


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## johnsiddle (Jun 22, 2011)

*Re: Converting my 2001 Volvo V40.. I need a water heater.*

Hi Guy's.
The water cooled heatsink works a treat with my two 600A IGBT's but now I want to Warm/Defrost the cab.


Has anyone got a water heat assy from a Vauxhall Ampera or a Chevy pack (I think they may be the same.) they are not using and would like to sell it to me.??
I was originally using a dishwasher heater from the states but my 172v cooked it, It was toasty tho....

I am using the one that came with my pack to control the temp of my pack.

regards John


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## johnsiddle (Jun 22, 2011)

Hi Guy's.
Since fitting the pair of IGBT modules last year, the car has been going well.... until today when after putting my foot down and in 3rd gear there was a pop and loss of drive.

Initial inspection is all ten of the flyback diodes have blown (one exploded), not sure why I have lost all drive at this point but it may have flashed back and blown the IGBT driver (hopefully not the IGBTs tho).
Anyway with the view to making a start I was wondering which freewheeling diodes you guys might recommend, the ones I was using are rated at 400v and 100amp each.
They are mounted on a copper buss bar and big ally heatsink and sit right under two 5in fans. I dont think they overheated but obviously if one fails you can bet your life they all will within a nano sec which they did.

So any recommendations will be appreciated.
regards John


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## johnsiddle (Jun 22, 2011)

Took the controller apart, sadly I think the IGBTs and Diodes are a little wornout.
I am sure they should not look like this.
My guess is that the diodes blew and then the IGBTs were left looking at large flyback spikes.

Answers my earlier question about wheather the diodes are required when using IGBT modules.

No looking for more robust diodes...

John


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## swoozle (Nov 13, 2011)

It's common to use dual-gate IGBTs for this reason. You can use the other gate as the diode and be guaranteed it is up to snuff. I've got a P&S inverter that uses 3 of these: Fuji 2MBI300L-060 IGBT Module 600V 300A. Works great.


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## swoozle (Nov 13, 2011)

I noticed that you were going to (or are?) using a Volt coolant heater in your project. I'm retrofitting my car with a Volt pack configured to about 160V and am trying to figure out how to keep it warm. How is the Volt heater working out for you?
Thanks


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## johnsiddle (Jun 22, 2011)

swoozle said:


> It's common to use dual-gate IGBTs for this reason. You can use the other gate as the diode and be guaranteed it is up to snuff. I've got a P&S inverter that uses 3 of these: Fuji 2MBI300L-060 IGBT Module 600V 300A. Works great.


Hi Swoozle, 
Thats a good idea, I was a bit confused when I read your message so I looked up the IGBT's, what you are actually saying is the IGBT's you use are half bridge ones and you are just using the diode of the top IGBT as the flyback diode. I assume its gate is shorted to source to make sure the IGBT does not turn on.

Does your system use three in parallel or is it an AC system?

I wish I had known this as I could have used the second IGBTs diode instead of putting them both in parallel only for both to get blown up.

I shall certainly do this for the next project which is an ex water cooled scooter. I have some of these IGBTS going spare but they are not as powerful as the 600a 1200v ones I used. I have one left so will have to use some discrete ones again.
I am looking at using 6 X 3 phase rectifier blocks 150A X 1600v with just the three center points all paralleled and all the + points parraleled with 8mm wide copper strip.

My water heater works great, I used an Arduino Nano coupled to the temperature sensors in the pack, I then digitised each one and averaged them, then gave the arduino an upper and lower point to compare.
The heater is running from 230v Ac (UK system) which equates to 800watts which is more than enough. I also sense the pack being below 10C or above 35C which is too cold/hot to charge and inhibit charging until warmed/cooled up/down.

I also sense for no water and over temp at the heater (using the sensor in the heater) and pass the coolant (antifreeze) either direct around the battery pack or thro a small motorcycle radiator with a cooling fan attached incase things get too hot when running. If no water I sound an alarm and reset all charging and heating.

I hope this is of interest to you, I know it sounds complicated but the Arduino makes it easy.

Regards John


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## swoozle (Nov 13, 2011)

Yes, that's it exactly. I'm not an electrical guy by training so I don't know all the right lingo. 
My controller is for a DC motor so yes, the IGBTs are in parallel.

Thanks for the heater info, that's exactly what I was looking for. My previous config used an arduino to control heating tape in my battery boxes similar to how you describe. Moving to liquid should be easy. Though my voltage is lower so I'll need another heater to get enough temperature rise.

What valve do you use to control flow through the radiator?


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## johnsiddle (Jun 22, 2011)

swoozle said:


> Yes, that's it exactly. I'm not an electrical guy by training so I don't know all the right lingo.
> My controller is for a DC motor so yes, the IGBTs are in parallel.
> 
> Thanks for the heater info, that's exactly what I was looking for. My previous config used an arduino to control heating tape in my battery boxes similar to how you describe. Moving to liquid should be easy. Though my voltage is lower so I'll need another heater to get enough temperature rise.
> ...


I used a central heating 3 port zone valve, I took the actuator off and replaced it with a motorised door lock from a scrap auto (car),.
The the Arduino just drives thro two relays (one for bypass and one for cooling) for a set amount of time, about 5 secs.
It took a bit to get the mechanics to work but it was easy in the end as it only needs to move 90 degrees.
I use a second Arduino Nano for the temp control, they make life so much easier than hardwire solutions and are cheap.
I have had lots of problems with 12v water pumps ie: they dont last long, in the end I bought a 12v to 230v AC inverter board (a couple of quid on ebay) added a 12v mains transformer in reverse and used a 230v AC water pump from a washing machine. If you search you can find one that has smallish pipes that can be reduced to the 22mm pipe that I am using through out.

When the rain stops I will see if I can photo the changeover valve and post it.

js


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## johnsiddle (Jun 22, 2011)

Hi Swoozle.
Here are some pics of my changeover valve.
The last pic is of the box with my 12v to 230v inverter in for the water pump.


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## swoozle (Nov 13, 2011)

This is great! Thanks for the info


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## johnsiddle (Jun 22, 2011)

The radiator was an oil cooler rad not from a watercooled scooter, I forgot that was mark one.
It was sourced from ebay and chosen to suit the space available, if used tho make sure it is thoroughly cleaned/degreased inside as the holes thro the battery cells are very small.


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## johnsiddle (Jun 22, 2011)

Well using my last 600a 1200v igbt didn't last long.
I used the diodes from six 150A three phase rectifiers in parallel mounted on the watercooled heatsink but the power was un-controllable except for reverse which limits the throttle voltage to 20%.
Anyway I only made it up the road a few times before failure.
The IGBT has blown as did the TC4452 driver chip so it looks like a collector gate short.
The diodes are all OK, obviously they are too slow and did not do their job.

i am now going to follow your controller and fit two 400A 600V dual IGBT's in parallel and use only the diodes from the top devices as my diodes.
I shall use 2 of 2MBI400N-060, these have single spike ratings of 800A and built in over current protection.
This really is the last chance, if these fail I am going to rip it apart and buy some AC parts.


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## jackbauer (Jan 12, 2008)

Standard rectifier diodes are way to slow for a motor controller. I've used half bridge modules in all my controllers over the years with no failures. Just don't forget to short the G-E terminals on the high side.


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## johnsiddle (Jun 22, 2011)

jackbauer said:


> Standard rectifier diodes are way to slow for a motor controller. I've used half bridge modules in all my controllers over the years with no failures. Just don't forget to short the G-E terminals on the high side.


 Thanks Jack, 

Yes I have come to that conclusion, the diodes were marked as being Shotky diodes which should have been fast enough and they were marked for use in switchmode and chopper ccts, and I am only running at 3kHZ, any faster and my throttle response was too fierce much like it was yesterday before it blew.
Never mind.


I wish I had known about the half module trick a couple of years ago, all my problems have been diode based I am sure. I think I have had about four sets blow (maybe more) but I put the blame on the output devices.
I really thought I had cracked it with the IGBT's which lasted longer than any of the others (except for the last one).




I wont forget the short between the high GT and E.


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## johnsiddle (Jun 22, 2011)

swoozle said:


> Yes, that's it exactly. I'm not an electrical guy by training so I don't know all the right lingo.
> My controller is for a DC motor so yes, the IGBTs are in parallel.
> 
> Thanks for the heater info, that's exactly what I was looking for. My previous config used an arduino to control heating tape in my battery boxes similar to how you describe. Moving to liquid should be easy. Though my voltage is lower so I'll need another heater to get enough temperature rise.
> ...


 Hi Swoozle.

I was just thinking about this, presumably you will only want to warm the pack when it is on charge or preparing to charge, normally the pack will stay warm enough on its own when you are driving or it is charging.


My heater measured about 66ohm's, 230/66 = 3.48 amps (I). Watts is (I X I) X R(ohms) 

My house is 230v, 230v gives about 800W, more than enough to heat the pack and pipes. 
If you are heating from your house supply, then assuming your house is only about 160v then you will get about 387W which I still think should be enough.
Afterall you only need to bring the temp up to about 15C/20C to make it safe to charge, it will just take a bit longer.


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

johnsiddle said:


> My house is 230v, 230v gives about 800W, more than enough to heat the pack and pipes.
> If you are heating from your house supply, then assuming your house is only about 160v...


I don't know of anywhere that uses 160 volts as the domestic distribution voltage. In North America ordinary outlets are fed 120 V, while high-demand appliances are fed 240 V single-phase with an optional centre neutral (so 120 V is available). Home EV chargers are normally supplied with 240 V.


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## johnsiddle (Jun 22, 2011)

brian_ said:


> I don't know of anywhere that uses 160 volts as the domestic distribution voltage. In North America ordinary outlets are fed 120 V, while high-demand appliances are fed 240 V single-phase with an optional centre neutral (so 120 V is available). Home EV chargers are normally supplied with 240 V.



Hi Brian
I only used that figure as an example and because Swoozle has a pack voltage of 160v just incase he is going to use his pack to drive the heater. Although if his house is at 120v possibly he will need and additional heater as he says.

I don't know what voltage Swoozle's house is at or where he is from offhand. Just loked him up, I see he is in the states so I guess 120v... Yuk!!


regards


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## johnsiddle (Jun 22, 2011)

*Re: Converting my 2001 Volvo V40 Uncontrolled power now*

Just finished fitting the 2 new dual IGBT's with the top unit locked off and just the diode in use.


In neutral, reverse and 1st gear (these two gears only get 20% of the throttle) it works a treat, the current is very low maybe 20amp so is the speed, but thats the idea.


BUT in second gear (didnt dare to try any higher gears) the power is uncontrollable and bucks like very bad current limiting.
If I am very slow I can start to move but as I open up the jerking starts.
It was just like that when I fitted the single IGBT and Rectifier diodes just before the IGBT blew up.


I tried with 1khz chop speed, 3.8khz and 15.6khz but the faster I go the worse it gets, I did find the highers speeds had this effect with my old setup of 10 diodes and 2 600A IGBT's so I only used the 3.8khz chop and sometimes 1khz.




Anyone else experienced this kind of problem or any idea's, it seems to be current related.


regards 

JS


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## jackbauer (Jan 12, 2008)

What kind of driver and logic are you using?


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## johnsiddle (Jun 22, 2011)

Hi Jack.
My basic functions are controlled by an Arduino Nano the PWM is generated by a pre-programmed PIC chip developed from this project ( http://picprojects.org.uk/projects/ppc/index.htm ) the output from the pic chip drives an opto isolator on the driver bd.
The high voltage side is totally isolated from the 12v system line.
Current limit is sensed using a hall effect sensor on the neg cable and thro an op amp as in the Holmes project, the arduino then turns the drive off when current reaches a limit point.



The driver board uses a 10w dc/dc inverter to get about 18v from the 170v power rail, this powers a TC4452 its input is from the opto isolator and its output is split thro 2 x 10ohm resistors one to each IGBT gate. There are 90k ohm resistors acros the gate and emmiter to guard against static.


The 10 ohm resistors are infact 2 x 5 ohm in series the center point having two 12v zenner diodes in series strapped to the emitter to try and clamp the gate/emitter to a max of 24v and hopefully blow the first 5 ohm first in the event of a flashover which happened to the last IGBT.


Basic cct added, the high power bd is not shown but has 16 x 333mfd 200v capacitors in parallel.
The driver and DC/DC inverter bd is attached to the high power bd.

regards js


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## johnsiddle (Jun 22, 2011)

jackbauer said:


> What kind of driver and logic are you using?


 Hi Jack.
I am thinking that maybe the DC/DC converter powering the driver might be getting spiked by all the pulse noise that must be on the HV line. I have the same setup to power my incab digital displays and they go crazy at hi currents.


I have built a multy output DC/DC converter using a cheap board from china and a home wound tranny.
I am going to power the driver bd from a regulated 12v from this and other outputs will drive the display's and the main power to the PWM logic bd.
I am also redesigning my capacitor bank to have 5 x 2000ufd caps instead of the 16 x 330ufd previously used.
Just waiting for the caps to arrive then I shall try again.



js


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## johnsiddle (Jun 22, 2011)

Well after re-configuring my power assy with 5 new 2000uf Capacitors, beefed up connectors and a 3mm thick buss bar. Driving the the driver board from an isolated multi output 12v/12v DC/DC converter the result is I appear to have wasted my time and money.

1st and Rev gears are fine (throttle is limited to 20% of max) but only draws about 30/40A max as does revving in neutral.
But 2nd gear the car bucks like a bronco and is totally un-usable. Its like very violent current limiting but pretty much at any current.

I am pretty much at a loss now, the only thing I can think of doing is to re-program the Arduino Nano to ignore the current limiting circuitry.

This problem only came about when I replaced the Diodes with 3phase Rectifiers which we thought were too slow and blew the 600A IGBT fitted at the time.
Now I have two 400A Dual IGBT's with the top diodes strapped as the flyback diodes. The top IGBT's have their gates shorted (little yellow connectors) on left.

The first of the three pictures shows before the cap assy and the +rail connector fitted.
The others show the completion.


By the way the big chunk of brass on the RH side holding the RH IGBT corner down is there because I used one of these combination drill and tap bits to drill and tap mounting holes, snapped in the hole. 
Lesson DO NOT reverse the drill until you have tapped right thro the hole, if you do the tap snaps.

JS


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## johnsiddle (Jun 22, 2011)

Well that didnt last long, I only went up the street a couple of times and then BANG and smoke.
I dont think they should look like this.....

I give up, I have tried everything and can only think that the motor is faulty, possibly shorting out at speed/current.

I think I am going to have to look at 3phase options.
At least I have two strings of 174v so could split them to make 348v possibly good enough for AC

Anyone any thoughts.
JS


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## jackbauer (Jan 12, 2008)

John, you have a number of things working against you in that controller. I doubt the motor is to blame. The layout of the igbts and caps would be number one problem. May I suggest watching this video where I show detailed construction on a DC controller of the type I have used for may years with absolutely no problems :
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IzVR4jD0N4w


Then regards control of the power stage you need a logic board with some form of current feedback. Tony Boggs designed an excellent example :
https://www.diyelectriccar.com/foru...sive-asic-dc-series-controller-no-196337.html


I am using this in my E36 project.


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## johnsiddle (Jun 22, 2011)

Hi Jack.
Thanks for the links the videos were most informative.

Really my controller is not too different from yours except mine is more cluttered with auto pre-charge, throttle limit for 1st/rev gears and flashing lights all handled by a cpu.
I must admit had I seen your controller first I would have copied it.
Come the end of the day we are both generating a PWM signal and switching some high power switches.
I must admit that I did not appreciate the tweaking that was required in the output driver or how significant not doing so would be.

My drive signals are the same as yours fast 12v square waves, the output current capability of the TC4452 is 12amp and it is designed for driving IGBTs/Mosfets but I did not allow for the ringing of the output.
I do like those integrated Opto isolator/drivers that you used.

I do have current limiting, provided by a circular 500Amp LEM sensor mounted on the Neg supply cable just outside the box as MJ Holmes used in his 144v Controller which senses current into the power amp.
Which rail is your current limiting sensor sitting on, the rail with the cutout, is that your run to the motor (your C2E1 rail)?

I used a 741 as the comparator against a fixed reference voltage, limiting current to about 600A (the IGBT's are 2 x 400A 600V devices with surge ratings of 800A each) the output of this told the CPU to kill (or at least greatly reduce by 80%) the drive signal.
I have to admit that my current limiting was turned off on this last run to try and see if it was this that was causing my bucking bronco syndrome. It has been working on all my other tryouts.
I was only pulling about 150/200Amp in second gear when the smoke arrived. 
The result was quite hopeful as well, I was able to do several 50yds runs this time before it blew up I was just thinking that I was on the right lines.

I wonder why you think my capacitor bank and IGBT assy is wrong they are all very closely connected with heavy copper buss bars and heavy duty welding cable, just not physically mounted on them although one side of the capacitor bank is.. I am surprised that you only used approx 2000uf capacitance, I thought that most of the controllers used at least 5000uf which is why I went for 10000uf total.
I do not though, have those additional small capacitors sitting across the buss bars although I did have them on the previous capacitor bank.
I could not make out from your video exactly what you used I used 4 x .47uf 400v types on the early board.
Temperature was not the problem, my water cooled heatsink only reached 12C.

Come the end of the day I have to admit that yours works and mine did not.

My motor has been the only constant in all this, it is an old milk float motor which I think might date back to the 50's and which could well have suffered in its previously long life and was certainly not designed to be driven from 170v, I think it said 48v on the plate. 
This is why I am starting to think that maybe its insulation is breaking down.
The runs done in 1st and reverse gear were in the main faultless with just an occasional blip.

Sorry for such a long post, I am a bit p??sed off at the moment.
Thanks for the feedback.
John


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## swoozle (Nov 13, 2011)

FAR from knowledgeable expert here, but I popped an IGBT or two trying to get a one-off IGBT-based P&S controller going and learned that you really need an oscilloscope to know what the voltage overshoots are doing in order to make a robust system. Even with a large, fast main cap mounted right on the main rails spanning the IGBTs, mine needed a snubber cap on each IGBT to keep the voltage spikes under control.


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## johnsiddle (Jun 22, 2011)

swoozle said:


> FAR from knowledgeable expert here, but I popped an IGBT or two trying to get a one-off IGBT-based P&S controller going and learned that you really need an oscilloscope to know what the voltage overshoots are doing in order to make a robust system. Even with a large, fast main cap mounted right on the main rails spanning the IGBTs, mine needed a snubber cap on each IGBT to keep the voltage spikes under control.


What did you use as a snubber?
John


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## jackbauer (Jan 12, 2008)

John, a DC motor controller is a switched mode power supply (despite a Youtube genius trying to tell me otherwise). So let's examine the following situation : You are driving away from a stop, your battery is at 200v and you draw 10amps. This is 2kw of power. The motor DOES NOT see 200v, it sees perhaps 20v, ignoring losses this is 100amps for the same 2kw. So you MUST measure the current on the motor negative lead not the battery side.


Regards the capacitor placement it is perfect if we were just worrying about good current flow. This is only half the picture. Regards ringing on the DC bus it is awful as those lovely long thick cables make excellent inductors and ring like a bell as you increase current. V=L di/dt.


If you have to mount the caps that way then laminated busbars are a must (basically copper sheet with an insulator clamped tight) as the capacitance helps cancel out the inductance. This is why I mount the caps directly on the busbars.


I also get Youtube geniuses telling me my IGBT driver is not up to the task. On paper this is absolutely correct. It does not deliver enough current to satisfy the minimum turn on time specified on the datasheet. Therefore it's no good and I really SHOULD listen to them and get a more powerful driver right? Nope. IGBT driving is a compromise between speed and losses. Turn on fast and reduce losses (heating), turn on slow and reduce di/dt overshoots like I show in the video. So we compromise. Not too fast and not too slow. Just like the porridge we aim for just right


I wish I could do more to help you. And others. Sadly the people who did jump in to help seem to have moved on. I think I will be too. Unless I can clone myself and send clones around to world to fix cars


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## johnsiddle (Jun 22, 2011)

jackbauer said:


> John, a DC motor controller is a switched mode power supply (despite a Youtube genius trying to tell me otherwise). So let's examine the following situation : You are driving away from a stop, your battery is at 200v and you draw 10amps. This is 2kw of power. The motor DOES NOT see 200v, it sees perhaps 20v, ignoring losses this is 100amps for the same 2kw. So you MUST measure the current on the motor negative lead not the battery side.
> 
> 
> Regards the capacitor placement it is perfect if we were just worrying about good current flow. This is only half the picture. Regards ringing on the DC bus it is awful as those lovely long thick cables make excellent inductors and ring like a bell as you increase current. V=L di/dt.
> ...


Hi Jack.
Thanks for that I really appreciate all your patience and input.
I am going to order a pair of PCB's from you and use your system and give it one more try (I know I said that last time).
I assume the IGBT driver board will drive different IGBT's as long as the gate connectors match up.

I think I have some of the laminated connector that came with the Ampera battery pack. I have used some on the neg line and the connection to the motor (orange sleeve). I dont know if it has an insulation layer built in though.
I could then use three drop down links of this from the Caps buss down to the IGBT's instead of the single thick one.
What do you think?

Do you think I should stick with the 5 X 2000uf caps or reduce it, I read somewhere that multiple caps have less ESR than a single one? also what are the small caps you put in parallel with them. I could not find a BOM for the Power assy on your github.

Thanks again.
John


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## johnsiddle (Jun 22, 2011)

Hi Jack.
I have just ordered the boards, will you make sure the order went thro?
Regards John


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## jackbauer (Jan 12, 2008)

Yep got the order thanks.


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## swoozle (Nov 13, 2011)

johnsiddle said:


> What did you use as a snubber?
> John


Kemet C4BT, 5uF, 600V, one on each IGBT. We also had to tweak the gate resistors to minimize the ringing.

https://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showthread.php?t=76726

It's a little disassembled right now (P&S controller needed some work) but here it is.


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## johnsiddle (Jun 22, 2011)

swoozle said:


> Kemet C4BT, 5uF, 600V, one on each IGBT. We also had to tweak the gate resistors to minimize the ringing.
> 
> https://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showthread.php?t=76726
> 
> It's a little disassembled right now (P&S controller needed some work) but here it is.


Thanks Mate, 
I read thru all the links on your project, did you ever get a working EV? 

I have ordered a pair of PCB's from JackBauer and with some mods he has suggested, I hope I have better luck this one last time.

By the way Jackbauer, what limit current is set by your 'over current protection' cct ?

john


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## swoozle (Nov 13, 2011)

johnsiddle said:


> Thanks Mate,
> I read thru all the links on your project, did you ever get a working EV?
> 
> I have ordered a pair of PCB's from JackBauer and with some mods he has suggested, I hope I have better luck this one last time.
> ...


Oh yah, it ran great for quite awhile! I could pull 700+ amps out of a 160V CALB pack with no problems. It was great fun to drive.

Then the person I sold it to had some issues and let the pack discharge to dead, ruining it. I bought it back and am rebuilding it with a Volt pack.


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## johnsiddle (Jun 22, 2011)

Rather hard to believe but both IGBT's still have working High side transistors and diodes.... yes even the one that obviously blew a flame out of its side.
They must be well isolated inside.
Both low sides have gone tho.

Obviously not suitable for an electric car but I am sure I will find a use in some low voltage project.... maybe an old scooter I have lying around.
js


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## johnsiddle (Jun 22, 2011)

*Re: Converting my 2001 Volvo V40 Last incarnation*

Well I am getting close to the last incarnation of this EV.

The latest pics shows my latest version using Jackbaur's PCB's and following pretty much all his recommendations.
I am using different IGBT's but that should not make much difference.... I hope.

It is just waiting for me to build my first ever SMD board, some of the components I can hardly see so fitting them will be a challenge, I just hope the wife's oven is up to the job, I wonder if the heating element in the grilling type microwave will do the job. I certainly wont be able to hand solder them.


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## jackbauer (Jan 12, 2008)

Looking good John. If you're stuck let me know and I'll solder them for you.


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## johnsiddle (Jun 22, 2011)

jackbauer said:


> Looking good John. If you're stuck let me know and I'll solder them for you.


Thanks Damian.


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## johnsiddle (Jun 22, 2011)

*New controller not working*

Well my first attempt at SMD soldering didn't go well. I suppose I didn't expect it to.
All the parts soldered in Ok and looked very nice.... But it don't work no pulses generated.
All the components appear to check out OK and I have 5v in all the right places, but maybe there are some shorts under the components or the chip/chips failed in the oven, who knows?

At least I can use the driver board as this one is thro hole components and I have already tested that it is OK.
I will connect it to my own designed controller , I only need the PWM signal and 5V.
I will re-position my current limit sensor onto the motor lead.

Pity as it looked a good option

Damian, what frequency did your controller work at, hopefully my board will match it I have three options 900hz, 3khz and 15khz

john


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## jackbauer (Jan 12, 2008)

It runs at 8khz


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## johnsiddle (Jun 22, 2011)

Thanks Damian.

Happy New Year.

John


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## johnsiddle (Jun 22, 2011)

*Re: Converting my 2001 Volvo V40 - Advancing Brushes*

Hi guy's
Just before I fit the latest set of IGBT's and using Jackbauer's drive board and maybe blow another set, I thought I would clarify my understanding of advancing the brushes just incase I made a mistake when I advanced the brushes way back when I fitted the motor.


If the motor is going CW then I need to move the brushes CCW.... Yes??

What would be the effect if I got it wrong, went the wrong way or advanced too much or did not do it at all?
I know it is to do with sparking but are we talking little sparks at the brushes or sparks tracking around the commutator? 

john


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## johnsiddle (Jun 22, 2011)

Well assuming I got advancing the brushes right I can only assume that I have a faulty motor.

Just ran the thing up using Jackbauer's controller and driver board the motor spins up fine (ish) in neutral and in first it appears fine although it jumps when driving the motor from a standstill, but as soon as I go to second gear even the slightest amount of drive and the motor bucks like a bronco.

I know from experience if I persist running it then the IGBTs will explode like all the rest did.

I can only assume that under load the armature is tracking/arcing around and effectively putting a dead short on the drivers.

This has been my problem with every set of drivers I have fitted, starting with multiple MOSFET sets several times, up to three sets of IGBT's and at least the same number of flyback diode sets.
I always assumed it was faults in the design of my controllers and drivers but I have faith in Jackbauer's design....

I think I will try to get to see the armature and fit a camera and hopefully see if my suspicions are right. If so then I will be looking for a motor.


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## johnsiddle (Jun 22, 2011)

*Re: Converting my 2001 Volvo V40 Blown again... Motor Fault?*

Decided to knock the battery voltage down to 124V just incase the motor didnt like the 174V I was hitting it with, and in less than a meter of driving in second gear it bucked like a bronco and blew another IGBT, I think it would have blown two of them but either it fused the wire leading to the drive of the second IGBT or it got broken off during fitting.

This was with the controller and drive board I got from jackbauer so I think that all my troubles have been caused by a duff motor right from the start.
I checked out jackbauers drive board and only minimal damage caused, two zenner diodes across the gate blown short circuit.

Now do I look for another DC motor or go AC?

Are the surplus 3 phase motors on the market suitable for an EV and what sort of HP rating should one be looking at, 3HP and 10HP are just two I have seen advertised...

john


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## johnsiddle (Jun 22, 2011)

Decided to rip my motor out with the view of replacing it with a forklift motor.
Took some pictures of the commutator.....

I know it is supposed to have a patna but I think what I have goes a bit beyond patna. The pictures are not very good as the motor is still in the car but I think they show enough.

I presume from this a 45v motor is not good at 174v.
What is the recommended over voltage for a motor?
If a motor is rated at say 67v what would be a safe voltage to run it at???
john


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

I'm running my 48v motor at 340v 
Rated at 48 v and 200 amps - so I'm using 1200 amps and 340 volts


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## johnsiddle (Jun 22, 2011)

Duncan said:


> I'm running my 48v motor at 340v
> Rated at 48 v and 200 amps - so I'm using 1200 amps and 340 volts


WOW!!
My motor must have been duff from day one then..
john


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## johnsiddle (Jun 22, 2011)

Duncan said:


> I'm running my 48v motor at 340v
> Rated at 48 v and 200 amps - so I'm using 1200 amps and 340 volts


What sort of motor are you running Duncan, is it a forklift type?
john


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

Hi John
I'm using a Hitachi motor from a Nissan Forklift - I did blow up my first one after about 5 years but my second one is doing well

MT4100 - 48v 10 kW 

They seem to be very popular motors here - a guy in Dunedin has a pile of them
My first one cost me $100
The one I'm using now cost $150
And I picked up a "spare" - it's the model that replaced mine in the Forklifts - for $200

https://www.diyelectriccar.com/foru...-dubious-device-44370p2.html?highlight=duncan


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