# Kit car donor



## CroDriver (Jan 8, 2009)




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## CroDriver (Jan 8, 2009)

GTM Supercar
$20.000˙


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## CroDriver (Jan 8, 2009)

K1 Attack




I have been at the factory that builds the K1 but they want ridiculous amounts of money just for the chassis

It seems to me like the Superlite has a lot more advanced alu chassis than the GTM

Which one do you like most?


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## TheSGC (Nov 15, 2007)

I like the GTM Supercar, and if I had any money I would use that as an EV chassis. I have driven past their factory a few times, but never went in.


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## DaveAK (Jun 28, 2009)

Well, it's all a matter of opinion I guess, but I'd have to say I like the look of the GTM the best. I'd love to do one of those as a serious EV.


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## ithinkidontknow (May 14, 2009)

I agree, the GTM supercar looks way more versatile and sleek looking. To me, the ultralight is way too busy looking and looks more like a racecar rather than a street legal car. I would much rather roll around in the GTM!


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## EVComponents (Apr 20, 2009)

DaveAK said:


> Well, it's all a matter of opinion I guess, but I'd have to say I like the look of the GTM the best. I'd love to do one of those as a serious EV.


I am seriously considering do it this winter.


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## ftaffy (Mar 13, 2009)

Personally i would take the SL-C though not really alot of space by the look of things - but its got a small frontal area and really hugs the ground. And space is something you are going to need alot of! 
Before you buy get a test drive and get a feel for the cars. And take a tape measure and a few pieces of paper with measurements of your parts. Do some rough calcs as to what will fit... I did the stupid thing and worked out after i had made the transmission tunnel i could have moved the motor down further.

To me looking at the chassis the GTM looks to have some large open box's which is not good in space frames. This will result in chassis twisting when driven hard.

Really looking forward to this, even if you make my lotus 7 ev look like its a snail... if i ever finish it!


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## Jokerzwild (Jun 11, 2009)

Factory 5 cars are my fav. here is a quick link to have fun with.
http://www.kitcarlist.com/


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## CroDriver (Jan 8, 2009)

Jokerzwild said:


> Factory 5 cars are my fav. here is a quick link to have fun with.
> http://www.kitcarlist.com/


They are my favorite too but how to get one since they don't respond on mails?!


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## kixGas (May 2, 2008)

I would say the GTM. It looks better, it is half the price and I would bet that there are a lot more out there than the SL-C. Also FF has been around for a while and is a relatively successful company making road cars. I believe RCR mostly makes the cars for racing applications.


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## CroDriver (Jan 8, 2009)

kixGas said:


> I would say the GTM. It looks better, it is half the price and I would bet that there are a lot more out there than the SL-C. Also FF has been around for a while and is a relatively successful company making road cars. I believe RCR mostly makes the cars for racing applications.


Yeah, but the problem is that they had in mind that everyone who's building a GTM has a Corvette donor. This is no problem since a normal customer would use almost the whole donor car 

You need a lot of things to complete the car. Here's a list:

 - Complete front and rear suspension (minus leaf springs and shocks)
 - Front and rear hubs, calipers and rotors (outer CV joints on rear)
 - Tilt steering column w/stalks
 - E-brake handle/cables
 - Fuel tanks with pump(s) and flexible lines uncut
 - Radiator w/fans and plastic shroud
 - Engine and computer 
- Exhaust manifolds
 - Wiring harness w/engine, throttle control, & ignition sections
 - Wheels and tires 
- Porsche Transaxle Parts from 1987-1998 2-wheel drive 911 models

And this is no problem for you guys in America, you probably have a lot Corvettes for some reasonable prices. I'm would have to pay a lot of money to use just a few parts from the donor. 

Maybe I can get some new parts from my local Chevrolet dealer


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## unclematt (May 11, 2008)

CroDriver said:


> Yeah, but the problem is that they had in mind that everyone who's building a GTM has a Corvette donor. This is no problem since a normal customer would use almost the whole donor car
> 
> You need a lot of things to complete the car. Here's a list:
> 
> ...


 Check out the GTM "donor kits" they have on ebay for this car. That may help you avoid some cost and simplify things.


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## unclematt (May 11, 2008)

I also forgot to point out that there are items on your list that can be removed for an EV setup:


- Fuel tanks with pump(s) and flexible lines uncut
- Radiator w/fans and plastic shroud
- Engine and computer 
- Exhaust manifolds
- Wiring harness w/engine, throttle control, & ignition sections

and possibly you could use a much cheaper beefed up VW bug tranny instead of the Porsche transaxle, so this could be removed from the list as well:

- Porsche Transaxle Parts from 1987-1998 2-wheel drive 911 models


All the money for that stuff can now go toward your EV components.


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## Bowser330 (Jun 15, 2008)

CroDriver my good friend, 

Why not make a Ferrari 355 or 360 or 430!

Or why not a Murcielago?

http://www.extreme-sportscars.com/

They are based in UK.

The 360 and 430 are based on Peugeot 406 coupe...

It would be awesome to see you with an Electric Sportscar that looks like this.....










The Murcielago is based on the MkII MR2 (the model before the MRS spider)

The 360 430 and Murci are VERY CLOSE 99% accurate on the exterior to the real thing..

The Peugoet is FWD however you can customize it with your own rear suspension..


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## ftaffy (Mar 13, 2009)

That would be a serious head turner. Though i have a feeling it might not go down so well if it looks stock. Possible Mod the shape so its more of an individual car?
I looked at making an extreme 360, though i am not happy with a V6 FWD set up. 
How about a chassisworks chassis (DIY job) and a replica body from extreme?

A Peugeot 406 coupe EV would be a cool car, thought about it a few times.

Let us know what you decide, it sounds like there are alot of people who have tossed this idea around.


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## Bowser330 (Jun 15, 2008)

ftaffy said:


> That would be a serious head turner. Though i have a feeling it might not go down so well if it looks stock. Possible Mod the shape so its more of an individual car?
> I looked at making an extreme 360, though i am not happy with a V6 FWD set up.
> How about a chassisworks chassis (DIY job) and a replica body from extreme?
> 
> ...


good points made...

hey ftaffy, I sent you a PM....


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## CroDriver (Jan 8, 2009)

unclematt said:


> I also forgot to point out that there are items on your list that can be removed for an EV setup:
> 
> 
> - Fuel tanks with pump(s) and flexible lines uncut
> ...


Thank you. I found a supplier of GTM donor parts:

http://www.smcperformance.com/gtm.htm

The whole kit on ebay:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Fact...ptZMotorsQ5fCarQ5fTruckQ5fPartsQ5fAccessories

There are a lot items that we don't need for our EV conversions but I can purchase separate parts.



Bowser330 said:


> CroDriver my good friend,
> 
> Why not make a Ferrari 355 or 360 or 430!
> 
> ...


Yeah, those cars look really great but I don't like fakes. I'm 90% sure that I will go with this GTM.


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## Bowser330 (Jun 15, 2008)

That's fair..to each his own...

The GTM has a unique style and you cannot beat its frame construction/quality and low weight...especially for the price...


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## unclematt (May 11, 2008)

I know its not as pretty or sporty, but it has the same interior space as an old school Taurus, and it does hold 4 people...

Sunrise EV2 project

I don't know if they have a kit available yet or not, but I hope they soon do. It has a one piece main body in fiberglass, I would have it done in S-2 aviation fiberglass, and it would last forever.


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## Drew (Jul 26, 2009)

Have you thought about the Ultima series of cars? They're expensive, but the chassis is designed for in the region of 1000hp according to their website and they are the current 0-100-0 champion of the world according to some german magazine 

http://www.ultimasports.co.uk/Default.aspx

EDIT: I forgot to mention that the vehicle is almost completely custom built so no donor issues either.


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## Bowser330 (Jun 15, 2008)

good kitcar added to the list Drew...the Ultima is a champ...styling is pretty sporty/racey..

I think the important thing to point out is weight savings from using a tubeframe kit car...


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## unclematt (May 11, 2008)

What would be nice is a ground up design for all electric. That way there would be large battery friendly spaces within a tubular space frame. One reason I like the Sunrise is it has a huge battery compartment. I would also like to see some frames made from carbon-graphite tube.


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## Bowser330 (Jun 15, 2008)

unclematt said:


> What would be nice is a ground up design for all electric. That way there would be large battery friendly spaces within a tubular space frame. One reason I like the Sunrise is it has a huge battery compartment. I would also like to see some frames made from carbon-graphite tube.


I was thinking about the most economical way (cheapest) way to make a tube frame and I was thinking why couldnt you piece by piece cut out part of the unibody chassis and replace it with metal tubes welded in place...It would have a lot of welds but when you were done you would have a hybird-tube-unibody chassis which will likely be lighter weight and stronger than the original... it would look ugly but then again you are covering it with body panels so it wouldnt matter....


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## Drew (Jul 26, 2009)

Bowser330 said:


> I was thinking about the most economical way (cheapest) way to make a tube frame and I was thinking why couldnt you piece by piece cut out part of the unibody chassis and replace it with metal tubes welded in place...It would have a lot of welds but when you were done you would have a hybird-tube-unibody chassis which will likely be lighter weight and stronger than the original... it would look ugly but then again you are covering it with body panels so it wouldnt matter....


I think you'd find that you lost any weight benefit you gained by going for a tube frame.

The benefit of a tube frame is that it can weigh under 50kg for a complete car, whereas unibody steel cars are over 600kg for the basic structure.

Something which meets in the middle and would help a lot if you want to complete a ground up build is this; 

http://www.mcgillcorp.com/products/floorpanels.html

This company makes floor panels for aircraft, so they're flat prefabricated structural sheets of laminated fibre reinforced plastics with various core options. From memory Aluminium/Aluminium is very cheap. You can go to town if you like, they do a Carbon/Nomex board.

Utilising this type of structural board allows massive simplification of the cockpit area of a car as you can then make up an effectively 4 sided box with tube frame front and rears and the whole structure is then extremely stiff and load bearing, but you can walk anywhere in the cockpit etc without too much trouble, and you don't have to worry about complex arangements to pass torsional loads around the occupants.


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## unclematt (May 11, 2008)

Drew said:


> I think you'd find that you lost any weight benefit you gained by going for a tube frame.
> 
> The benefit of a tube frame is that it can weigh under 50kg for a complete car, whereas unibody steel cars are over 600kg for the basic structure.
> 
> ...


Last night I sketched up a rough idea of a frame concept, and it mirrored your concept exactly: a flat box in the middle for batteries with a tubular frame front and rear for suspension and body hard points. I put the passengers above the battery box so they could enjoy an SUV like ride height, with the batteries anchoring and providing a low center of gravity to make for excellent handling.


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## unclematt (May 11, 2008)

How about this: construct the battery box from the honeycomb panels suggested earlier, but with no bottom panel. The batteries are grouped and secured on top of another honeycomb panel, which comprises the battery pack. The battery pack is accessed by dropping it out the bottom of the box. When installed, the bottom perimeter of the battery pack floor panel is bolted to the bottom of the sides of the battery box, adding further strength and rigity to it. With sound insulation and carpet added, the top of the battery box honeycomb panel serves as the floor of the passenger compartment. A variety of body designs could then be merely bolted into place on this platform, much as been suggested with Volt variants.


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## Drew (Jul 26, 2009)

The original frame that I had designed was for a friend who was interested in building a fairly high performance kit style car.

Basically what I'd pencilled out was a honeycomb tub in the center with bolt on front and rear space frames.

In the original design the front subframe started at around the dash area and fully enclosed the drivers legs, had front wishbones mounted off it and a front crash structure, then the rear had the engine mounted, which was intended to be a GM Gen4 V8 with a mid rear transaxle as that was easy and convenient to get our hands on at the time.

The original track for the vehicle was in the range of 1600mm with a tyre width of 245 or so, so total vehicle width of 1850+mm and the passenger compartment was approx 1100mm wide, so if you followed a similar pattern then you could have 425 per side available between the front and rear wheels to store batteries. You'd have to climb over them every time you got in or out, but a bit of chequer plate would sort that out if you're fairly mobile 

That layout left a large amount of space available around the sides of the vehicle for body etc, which could easily be soaked up by batteries hung down the left and right of the passenger compartment.


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## Bowser330 (Jun 15, 2008)

Drew said:


> I think you'd find that you lost any weight benefit you gained by going for a tube frame.
> 
> *The benefit of a tube frame is that it can weigh under 50kg for a complete car, whereas unibody steel cars are over 600kg for the basic structure.*


I totally agree with your second comment and that is why i want to replace 75% of the 600kg unibody with tube framing....a hybrid frame where I am not replacing all of the frame just portions of it...


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## Drew (Jul 26, 2009)

the big problem you're going to find then is designing interfaces, almost all structure on a car is double skinned so it acts as a beam, meaning that you'll have to close each area in a method suitable to path loads in and out of the unibody structure without creating "hot spots" where you have excessive local loading. The other issue is going to be that most of the mass of a unibody structure is actually in the drivers compartment, so if you intend to maintain much of this structure you might end up with minimal weight loss and issues with rigidity.

Its usually very hard to modify somebody elses design, especially radically, and achieve something better than the original.


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## ftaffy (Mar 13, 2009)

Hey Bowser,

This is not as simple as just welding a few tubes in (well in the end it is) but to lead up to doing that you will need examine suspension geometry and load paths. Should not be beyond anyone who can get there head around Op-Amps and circuit boards but still requires some thought. Look at the Herb Adams book i recommended.

I cant stress enough that doing this must very well planned. I did a mod to a race car to make it electric for my final year project and spent 3-4months doing FEA to find a solution and that was still a lot worse then the original. Not saying you need to do FEA, its an overrated as a tool for anyone but experts (which i am not!).


Drew that sounds like a fairly cool design, i thought about putting side pods on the lotus 7 but rejected it but coming back to it now. Any pics/sketches on a napkin of what you were planning?


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## Bowser330 (Jun 15, 2008)

both with good points..thanks..

So i guess a ground-up tube design will have to be done....

Is it right to assume that having a stock oem chassis to copy from will make it easier to make the tube frame chassis? I say this because all the connection points for suspension, subframes, body panels, etc can all be mapped based on the oem...

I will check out those books however I am thinking I might get the frame made for me...as you both have made clear, there is a lot to keep in mind...safety, geometry, etc...I wonder how much a Porsche 911 tube frame will cost, I have found no where online that makes them...any ideas...


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## Drew (Jul 26, 2009)

As silly as it sounds generating a ground up frame design isn't actually that hard. Essentially all you have to do is keep in mind that you have to be able to follow any load from any wheel to any other wheel without running into dead ends.

There are a number of books on building Seven type chassis such as the Locost or similar which give you a good basic idea and then you can move on from there...

The only real thing to remember is to triangulate EVERYTHING  The only exception to that being if you integrate the aircraft flooring panels which I linked to above, they are able to take bending and torsioning loads without problems so thats why they're such a great addition around the cockpit area, which unfortunately has to have great big holes in it to accomodate the driver/passenger 



ftaffy, I only really have hand sketches around which I did a while ago, I might see if I can dig them out and scan them for you if you like. Otherwise I might have a quick crack at some CAD as I'm only working part time at the moment due to injury.

Also, I noticed that you're in Melbourne, if you're interested then I'd love to give you a hand if you want to do a build.


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## CroDriver (Jan 8, 2009)

Someone mentioned replacing the unibody chassis with a tube frame?

http://www.gatebil.no/forum/viewtop...&start=0&sid=968ba0bef31dd1243a42003eb67c788c

There are a lot projects like this. Nothing uncommon


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## unclematt (May 11, 2008)

To aid those seeking to find a specific car's hardpoint connections, try talking to a body shop. They have to have all those specs to be able to use hydraulics to pull a car straight after it has been wrecked. This is especially true of dealership body shops, if you want to reframe one of their vehicles with a tubular frame. 

If anyone finds a good source of vehicles that have been entered into a CAD piece of software, let us all know. Or if you obtain a hard point spec book, let us know that too!


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## ftaffy (Mar 13, 2009)

Drew said:


> Also, I noticed that you're in Melbourne, if you're interested then I'd love to give you a hand if you want to do a build.


My build is currently in a slow down phase due to $$$ and an overseas trip coming up. Also working on the controller when the parts arrive and slowly just finishing some odds and ends.

Once its back running i will be searching for people who feel like a bbq, a few beers and alot wire installation! 

If do find those designs please post, i am slowly making my entire car from frame up into solidworks.

Cheers
Taffy


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## yarross (Jan 7, 2009)

unclematt said:


> Sunrise EV2 project


Thanks for bringing this link here. Looks to be the most suitable kit car (assuming it'll be available in foreseeable future). This kit would address almost all my issues.


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## bipole (Sep 8, 2009)

Hello, new to the forum, this is my first post. I'm building a GTM kit car and held off on the engine purchase to see if electric price and performance would come around to look attractive enough to go EV. I just commited to go electric!

There is a lot of room for batteries but there is much triangulation of the frame members that doesn't leave nice rectangle compartments. I'm excited about the lithium on the market, finding room for these will not be a problem. I'm not interested in lead but it could be done easily if one moved a few bars.

Manual brakes and steering keep it simple. I bought the A/C heater package, I'd like to get it to work as a heat pump as well. This will take a bit of work.

If anyone would like some measurements off the car or any other info I would be glad to help out. I've got a bunch of forum to read to get caught up on the latest. I'm excited about the return of the Z2k, the WarP 11 hv, and there may be enough room for a siamese 9. Looking to street, autocross and drag the car.


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## CroDriver (Jan 8, 2009)

Looks great! You waited for the perfect moment to build a high power EV! Now all the good components are available to build one. I think that fitting motor and battery in the GTM will not be an issue. 

How long have you been working on you kit so far? 

Welcome to the forum!


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## kixGas (May 2, 2008)

Dear Bipole,

I hate you.

love kixgas

LOL- that is very awesome. I hope you post your progress on here.


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## bipole (Sep 8, 2009)

Received the kit in april, I've got a fixer house and a '67 Camaro drag car are competing for time, too many projects as always. I'll get some current pics into the 'bucket' soon. I'm taking a break right now from installing the axles and e-brakes. The transaxle is a Porsche 930 4 speed (120 lbs), good for 750 ft-lb of tq. keeping the kevlar clutch and aluminum flywheel.

Completed ice cars weigh in around 2300lb with an ls1 engine. I've calculated that there is about 660lb of ice engine, cooling and fuel etc that won't be going into the build. I'd be happy with a finish weight of 2500 lb and a 60-70 mile range.

The GTM is designed for downforce, not mileage. Some on the GTM forum have calculated the drag co at .42 or so (from performance comparisons to the Corvette) and the CdA at about 7.9. It will take some force to go fast. On the other hand it is very light and the corvette suspension is incredible. The brakes are huge and don't drag. With 44 psi in the tires I can push it across the floor and back with one finger.

My next step in components will be the motor which will determine the adapter needed.


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## bipole (Sep 8, 2009)

kixGas said:


> Dear Bipole,
> 
> I hate you.
> 
> ...



Thanks! With all y'alls help, I will.


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## Bowser330 (Jun 15, 2008)

I vote for dual 9" or dual 11" motors!!! with dual 1000A Soliton1 controllers!!!


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## Drew (Jul 26, 2009)

I've just checked through the sketch books and I don't have anything which is going to make a whole hell of a lot of sense to anyone but me. What I'll do is sit down some time next week and knock up some CAD of the frame. 

BTW BiPole, Very nice


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