# Where to buy CALB batteries



## DIYguy (Sep 18, 2008)

you can buy them direct from Calb if you want. They set up shop in CA. http://www.calibpower.com/Product.aspx

Talk to Keegan.

edit... you really should do a search. There is lots of discussion on this. Good luck!


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## GizmoEV (Nov 28, 2009)

I've met with and talked with Dave Kois at Current EV tech several times. I bought my TS pack through him (just before the EVC issues) and I would buy from him again if I were in the market right now. He has always been helpful to me and others in our small LCEVA group. I have no other connection with him.


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## DIYguy (Sep 18, 2008)

GizmoEV said:


> I've met with and talked with Dave Kois at Current EV tech several times. I bought my TS pack through him (just before the EVC issues) and I would buy from him again if I were in the market right now. He has always been helpful to me and others in our small LCEVA group. I have no other connection with him.


I agree about Dave. He has always been really helpful to me as well. I think he runs a good outfit, is trustworthy and can give you solid information. If taking risk is really tough on your stomach.... this guy is likely the best way to go. 

This option was already mentioned so, I was throwing out another. You can also buy them direct from China... depending on your stomach... lol


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## Zuglet (Oct 17, 2009)

DIYguy said:


> you can buy them direct from Calb...


Thanks DIYguy and GizmoEV,

I appreciate the advice and will post an update to let you know how things worked out.


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## ElectriCar (Jun 15, 2008)

Is Dave at currentev.com in South Carolina where I'm at??? http://currentev.com/


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## GizmoEV (Nov 28, 2009)

ElectriCar said:


> Is Dave at currentev.com in South Carolina where I'm at??? http://currentev.com/


No, he is in Washington state and the web site is currentevtech.com. I don't know anything about that other site. It looks like they are into NEVs not batteries.


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## Zuglet (Oct 17, 2009)

DIYguy said:


> you can buy them direct from Calb if you want. They set up shop in CA. http://www.calibpower.com/Product.aspx
> 
> Talk to Keegan.


Greetings,

Sorry for such a long post here -- but, I thought others might be interested in how this turned out.

I just took delivery on Tuesday of an order of CALB (Calib Power) 100Ah lithium batteries for my new battery pack. Here is a brief summary of my experience…

November 22-25, 2010 - I sent requests for ordering information to Current EV Tech, Manzanita Micro, Calib Power in China, Calib Power in Californina, and I also started this thread.

I got an immediate reply from Keegan at Calib Power in California, and shortly after that, Calib in China replied and finally Manzanita Micro replied quite promptly. Current EV Tech never replied to me so I sent a followup and they never replied to that either. It's also interesting to note that I got a personal email from another person at Calib Power in China who saw this thread and followed the link to my web page and found my personal contact information.

Manzanita Micro quoted me $135 less a 10% November discount with a lead time of 6-8 weeks.

Calib in China did not quote a price but seemed very willing to accommodate me and asked me to specify groupings with my order.

Keegan at Calib Power in California said there was a shipment due in on December 20, 2010 and he would reserve my order on that shipment. The price of the 100Ah batteries was $126 plus freight.

Although Manzanita Micro had the best price, they did not ask me to specify groupings and the lead time was 6-8 weeks so I decided to buy the batteries from Calib in California. Keegan asked for 50% up front and 50% two days before delivery. I wired 50% to Keegan on December 10, 2010.

As the December 20 delivery date approached, Keegan asked to delay the order by 10 days because of an inventory shortage. I wired the other 50% and on January 26, 2011 the order shipped via UPS Freight.

This past Tuesday a UPS Freight 18-wheeler arrived with a palette containing my new batteries. The batteries arrived in bulk (ungrouped) and each battery came with a copper busbar and a pair of bolts and washers. The cost of each 100 Ah battery with busbar and bolts came to $127.50 plus the total freight was $380.

Here are some random observations about all of this...

Having heard some of the horror stories about people losing their money buying lithium batteries, I was always a little bit uneasy through this transaction -- even more so when the delivery dates kept getting pushed back and emails to Calib sometimes went unanswed.

I found it curious that Current EV Tech has never replied to any of my emails -- I followed the link to their web page on the right side of this forum to get their contact information.

I saved 2% by paying via wire transfer instead of a credit card. 

Calib in China asked for my groupings, Calib in California did not. I provided my groupings when I placed my order with Keegan -- but, they were not taken into consideration and the batteries arrived ungrouped. 

If you count the weeks that it took for this order to arrive, I may have been just as well off dealing with Manzanita Micro who may or may not have grouped the batteries for me but appeared to have a better price and the 6-8 week lead time was pretty much what I had with Calib in California anyhow.

Since the batteries arrived ungrouped, I contacted Calib in California, Manzanita, and Current EV Tech about purchasing the compression hardware for the grouping and only Calib has replied. Keegan indicated that they would have to ship in from China and wouldn't be stateside until March.

Keegan sent me a picture of the compression clamps and they appear to be threaded rod with 1" wide steel or aluminum U-channel. Has anyone out there seen this hardware up close to confirm the dimensions and the material for these clamps?


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## Tahoe Tim (Feb 20, 2010)

Similar story for me and same exact experience. I also feel that buying direct from calib gives me the best chance at a warranty refund should it ever occur. 

I made my own steel battery boxes and wouldn't have used the factory banding anyway.


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## ElectriCar (Jun 15, 2008)

I finally received a quote from Lithium Storage yesterday. I contacted them 12/15, nearly 2 months ago. They wanted $1.35/ah. I purchased direct from Keegan for much less. In fact they're probably almost here from China as he said I would have them by the 20th. I too paid half up front thinking it would probably be better dealing with them directly should any warranty issues arise.


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## tomofreno (Mar 3, 2009)

> Keegan sent me a picture of the compression clamps and they appear to be threaded rod with 1" wide steel or aluminum U-channel. Has anyone out there seen this hardware up close to confirm the dimensions and the material for these clamps?


 Yep, the U channel is about 0.060" thick steel, depth of the U is about 9/32", width is about 1 1/8", length is about 7 1/2" (180Ah cells). This is what I received from evcomponents with my order of CALB cells about 1 1/2 years ago - two U-channels and two ss threaded rods with nuts/washers per group, plus a few extras. That's all I have on my cells, one U channel at each end of a group, at about the middle of the cell. There has been no swelling despite two having been charged to over 3.9V (3.6V is CALB spec). Edges of the cells in each group are all still tightly together. Groups vary from 3 to 6 cells.


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## DIYguy (Sep 18, 2008)

I went through similar steps however I had really good correspondence with Dave Kois. He was very patient and answered all my MANY questions. I ended up ordering Calb direct from China through Powerscaner. I paid $1.12/AH. I wired half upfront and half when I had pictures and test report prior to shipping (which is still upfront in my opinion...lol). Shipping from China to Toronto was $285 which I think is awesome. They landed in Vancouver on Jan 26th. They were waiting on train departure Feb 3rd and are due in Toronto on the 7th. I expect they will be late...but we'll see. Christmas slowed things down a bit, but overall, experience was good. There is no duty to pay either.. 

Cheers.
Gary


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## Zuglet (Oct 17, 2009)

tomofreno said:


> Yep, the U channel is about 0.060" thick steel, depth of the U is about 9/32", width is about 1 1/8", length is about 7 1/2" (180Ah cells)....


Thanks for these details Tomo, this is what I was looking for -- although, I was hoping that the end caps were aluminum, but this certainly gives me something to start with.

Here's the image of the compression setup that was given to me by Keegan at Calib Power in California. From the dimensions, the bottom example appears to be for the CALB 100Ah cells...


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

I too must report some difficulties in contacting Dave Kois last year. I don't know if he's overwhelmed in starting up the new business or what but it's not a good sign.
Regarding the CALB battery strapping, I think it's crap. I ended up using ratcheting cargo straps with adjustable turnbuckles and 4mm plywood end plates. Next time I think I'll use steel strapping with the turnbuckles. Drill a hole in the ends of the strapping and put the turnbuckle eye's through them, no special tools needed.


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## Zuglet (Oct 17, 2009)

DIYguy said:


> I ended up ordering Calb direct from China through Powerscaner. I paid $1.12/AH...


I was not comfortable going directly through China -- but, it certainly seems to be the most cost effective route.


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## DIYguy (Sep 18, 2008)

Zuglet said:


> I was not comfortable going directly through China -- but, it certainly seems to be the most cost effective route.


I wasn't comfortable either. I did a lot of head banging... lol. What kept coming back to mind were that all the bad experiences with not getting batteries had nothing to do with the Chinese. It was all on this side of the pond. Another point was that these companies would not screw one Joe like me if they truly wanted to build their businesses. I did check with some other customers here also. 
If buying direct from China doesn't make ur stomach ache... how about NOT using Paypal when I could have? I decided to save this $ also. Yes, I could have gotten a refund.... but the fee is significant. Direct wire... $20 x 2. Hey, someone had to do it... and besides, all these battery suppliers are doing exactly what I did. Have any of them talked about getting screwed? As JRP said, he'll believe it's a good deal, when I get my batteries. We'll shouldn't be long now... )


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Gregg, what were the actual capacities and resistance for your cells, i.e. how closely grouped are they to each other.


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## Zuglet (Oct 17, 2009)

DIYguy said:


> What kept coming back to mind were that all the bad experiences with not getting batteries had nothing to do with the Chinese. It was all on this side of the pond. Another point was that these companies would not screw one Joe like me if they truly wanted to build their businesses.


Good point about the source of problem being more about the 'local & small' guys and not the Chinese manufacturers. The people at Calib Power (both in California and China) have been very responsive to my queries. I even got an electronic Christmas card from Calib's home office

When emails go unanswered it's a big red flag for me, especially when I'm asking for ordering information. This was not a problem with Calib.

I really don't believe that the small shops intentionally set out to hurt EV builders -- but, some of the stories certainly did cast a dark cloud over my quest to spend so much money.


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## Zuglet (Oct 17, 2009)

JRP3 said:


> ...what were the actual capacities and resistance for your cells, i.e. how closely grouped are they to each other.


I'm not sure that I understand the question. Calib has the internal impedance at 1Khz as 900K ohms for my 100 Ah cells.

I've only put a volt meter on a hand full of cells so far, but every one was exactly 3.29 V.

Sorry if this does not answer your question.


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## tomofreno (Mar 3, 2009)

> Regarding the CALB battery strapping, I think it's crap.


 I think its fine, especially if you use 3 at each end as shown in the photo. I expect if a cell is overheated greatly nylon straps will stretch permitting the cell to swell somewhat. The ss threaded rods will not. Zuglet, my hardware looks just like that shown in the photo.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Zuglet said:


> I'm not sure that I understand the question. Calib has the internal impedance at 1Khz as 900K ohms for my 100 Ah cells.
> 
> I've only put a volt meter on a hand full of cells so far, but every one was exactly 3.29 V.
> 
> Sorry if this does not answer your question.


Cells vary somewhat in actual capacity and internal resistance. You should have gotten data for each cell's serial number showing actual resistance and capacity. Example, my 36 SE/CALB 100ah cells are between 110-114ah actual capacity and resistance is between 0.28-0.34. More recent customers have gotten closer actual capacity grouping which helps to keep a balanced pack.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

tomofreno said:


> I think its fine, especially if you use 3 at each end as shown in the photo. I expect if a cell is overheated greatly nylon straps will stretch permitting the cell to swell somewhat. The ss threaded rods will not. Zuglet, my hardware looks just like that shown in the photo.


If cells are swelling something is wrong, I don't think it should happen in normal operation. Jack is no longer strapping his cells, just keeping them snug. I'm reconfiguring my car and disassembled my packs yesterday and see no evidence of swelling after a rather hot summer. The TS strapping method seems much better than the CALB system since it gives you a more compact package and the straps lock into the side grooves of the cells. I strapped a group of my CALB's with their system and they started to slip out when I picked them up, the TS, system, and my improvised setup, would not allow this. Not a huge issue but it can make working with the cells and moving them around as a unit a bit easier. I guess "Crap" was overstating the case a bit


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## DIYguy (Sep 18, 2008)

I'm tempted to start a thread on strapping and related issues. The reply Electricar got back from Calb on this was WRT intra-cell movement and the effect this has on the terminal of the cell inside. I see this as just as big an issue as swelling, maybe bigger. The more I think about it, the more it bothers me. 
Forget about swelling for just a moment..Those copper bars are solid. If you rely on them to hold your cells in place and don't strap securely enough... you could have some issues with terminals getting damaged inside. 
Think also about the humped shape of these bars. What does it really accomplish? It certainly doesn't do anything for flexibility. Other than adding a bit of clearance, I say the hump does nothing. 
I bought the solid bars and no Calb clamping. I don't want to use their stuff cause it takes up too much space. 
At this point, I'm inclined to band with SS or polyester strapping and go with braided interconnects.
You know those few failures we've heard of that went "buss-bar" (dead short)....makin me wonder.... 
Sorry for derailing this thread further...moderator, feel free to give it (and me) a kick to a new thread.


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## GizmoEV (Nov 28, 2009)

DIYguy said:


> Forget about swelling for just a moment..Those copper bars are solid.


Actually, they are not solid if they are made like the TS straps are. Look closely at the strap in the top of this photo.










Note that the strap is made of 4 layers of copper which allows them to slide so they bend easier than if it were a solid piece.



> If you rely on them to hold your cells in place and don't strap securely enough... you could have some issues with terminals getting damaged inside.
> Think also about the humped shape of these bars. What does it really accomplish? It certainly doesn't do anything for flexibility.


 The hump makes it so if there is a push or pull along the length of the strap it will either push the hump higher or flatten it out. It is actually not needed for clearance. A straight strap would work but then the push-pull forces would be greater on the posts because the strap would not bend. In any case, I think the braided straps like EV Works sells are probably better as far as flexibility is concerned.

I liked the compactness of the clamping system from the TS cells. I needed my cells in sets of 10 so I had the local sheet metal shop cut some SS straps out of some SS sheet metal and I drilled and bent the straps to fit. In doing this I found that the tops of the cells are wider than the rest of the cells. Ten in a row meant that there was a hump in the middle of the string if the cells were equally tight from top to bottom. I made the top strap tighter than the lower straps and things seem to be fine.

As someone else pointed out, JRP3?, Jack and others are not strapping their cells but instead not charging them to the max voltage and just making sure they are snug in the battery boxes and seem to be doing fine.


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## DIYguy (Sep 18, 2008)

GizmoEV said:


> Actually, they are not solid if they are made like the TS straps are. Look closely at the strap in the top of this photo.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thanks Giz. I didn't know that they were made of multiple pieces. Are the Calb ones similar anyone know?
Are you convinced that this design will allow movement without undue stress on the cell terminals if they were allowed to move at all? I dunno man.... If you were to clamp each end tightly, where the hole is.. .how much force is needed to push along the linear axis toward the opposite end?
I'm still thinking braided... even though I don't want to spend the money.


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## GizmoEV (Nov 28, 2009)

DIYguy said:


> Are you convinced that this design will allow movement without undue stress on the cell terminals if they were allowed to move at all? I dunno man.... If you were to clamp each end tightly, where the hole is.. .how much force is needed to push along the linear axis toward the opposite end?
> I'm still thinking braided... even though I don't want to spend the money.


I'm quite sure they are fine for the way my batteries are mounted. I have four rows of 10 cells which are held down to a 3/4" sheet of plywood by 1/4" x 3/4" aluminum bars between each row bolted to the plywood. This Al bar rests on the ribs on the side of the batteries. As long as the ribs don't fatigue and crack I have a fairly rigid mounting system so I don't think they will move. (This pic was taken before I replaced the bar 1/8" bar with 1/4".)
















I still like the idea of braided straps.


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## ElectriCar (Jun 15, 2008)

I'm thinking of cutting the hump out of the connectors I get from Calb and soldering braid in it's place. I don't know the size of them yet so I'm not sure what size braid will fit over them. The place in Australia that sells the Zeva fuel gauge sells straps with the ends on them already but they're too small for my cells. You can find them in the battery section on their site.


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## GizmoEV (Nov 28, 2009)

I wonder if they will make some the size you need? It might be worth it. I'm not sure if you are just planning on soldering braid to the CALB straps but I'd be concerned about the possibility of relying on solder as a mechanical support. Can you weld copper like other metals?


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## tomofreno (Mar 3, 2009)

> I strapped a group of my CALB's with their system and they started to slip out when I picked them up, the TS, system, and my improvised setup, would not allow this.


 I agree steel straps and end plates that are flush with the sides of the cells would be better, since you can then set groups of cells tightly against each other. The CALB end pieces stick out beyond the cell about 1/4" preventing this. I've never had them slip out. I have 6 clamped together with just one set of clamping hardware and pick them up with a rope held by terminal bolts in the two end cells, they stay tightly together. Just a matter of enough tightening, without squishing them. Edges of the cells are all still tightly against each other. Yeah, I think they will only swell if overcharged significantly. I charged one to 3.95V with no swelling, but if I had left it charging at that voltage for a while it may well have.


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## Zuglet (Oct 17, 2009)

DIYguy said:


> I didn't know that they were made of multiple pieces. Are the Calb ones similar anyone know?


The bars I received from Calib are made of 5 strips of copper .023" thick and about 7/8" wide. They have a hump and are bound together with shrink tubing. They look exactly like the picture posted by GizmoEV.


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## tomofreno (Mar 3, 2009)

> Jack and others are not strapping their cells but instead not charging them to the max voltage and just making sure they are snug in the battery boxes and seem to be doing fine.


 Jack is using the woven connector straps like evworks sells. I think that is necessary if you don't clamp, for the reason DIY stated. I think they are not necessary if you do clamp cells tightly, unless perhaps they undergo large thermal cycling repeatedly. Don't know how the thermal expansion coeff of the cell cases compares to that of copper.


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## tomofreno (Mar 3, 2009)

> Are the Calb ones similar anyone know?


 Yes, they are. Still fairly rigid as you say, but I think ok if cells are clamped tightly.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

I don't know of anyone using the copper straps reporting loose terminals. I don't think it's an issue.


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## ElectriCar (Jun 15, 2008)

GizmoEV said:


> I wonder if they will make some the size you need? It might be worth it. I'm not sure if you are just planning on soldering braid to the CALB straps but I'd be concerned about the possibility of relying on solder as a mechanical support. Can you weld copper like other metals?


They're not listed on the site. I need 98mm straps and they only list 80 as the max. I think the solder will do fine as there will be very little if any mechanical movement. I really would like to have some carbon fiber boxes if someone would build them properly and inexpensively. I know the cf oem's I've seen are expensive. They have some awesome products out there but they're too expensive I feel. No you can braze copper with brass and a few other things but not weld. Heating and Air guys use something that is pretty strong and is faster to do than soldering but it takes a lot of heat. A hand held torch works with Map gas but not sure about propane.


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## LithiumStorage (Feb 3, 2010)

Zuglet said:


> Thanks for these details Tomo, this is what I was looking for -- although, I was hoping that the end caps were aluminum, but this certainly gives me something to start with.
> 
> Here's the image of the compression setup that was given to me by Keegan at Calib Power in California. From the dimensions, the bottom example appears to be for the CALB 100Ah cells...


Wow. Just noticed this picture reading through some threads. The top pic of the old style CALB banding is mine. Keegan must have borrowed it and added the text and arrows. I made a bunch more (in way better resolution) of different cell configurations, a CALB cell from almost every possible angle, busbar orientation, etc. Maybe I sould send him an original copy to work with so it's not so fuzzy...


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## ElectriCar (Jun 15, 2008)

Are you making anything for 12V starting battery replacement? That is the next thing. I understand it also makes for better fuel mileage due to the batteries once full not taking any more current, besides the lighter weight.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

I'm not sure that the small trickle charge going into a full lead acid battery is going to make a noticeable difference in fuel economy.


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## ElectriCar (Jun 15, 2008)

I'm sure it's not drastic but who doesn't want to save on fuel, however little? You'll shave maybe 40lbs of weight as well which will add to the savings.


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