# New Lithium option !!



## EV-propulsion.com (Jun 1, 2009)

Here's another option- LiFeMgPO4 battery modules made by valence technologies. They are built in a BCI sized battery case-so anyone with lead acid can easily replace them with lithium. Half the weight, twice the capacity, and can be used thousands of times at near 100% DOD. And also much safer than your standard Lipo's.(much less risk of fire with this chemistry). See the link below for all the details

These come complete with BMS-just plug in- no extra cost or time spent wiring all that up. They can be hooked to a laptop to monitor multiple parameters. *You can get these at* the valence dealer, www.EV-propulsion.com and more
info there or at http://www.valence.com/products/battery_modules


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## dimitri (May 16, 2008)

Hmm, a year ago when I sent Email to Valence asking for a quote, I got brushed off with "we don't lower ourselves to deal with DIY crowd" type Email. But now suddenly they mail advertisements and get into DIY market.

Oh well, too little too late, the money has been spent on the product of the company that doesn't mind selling to anyone who pays.

Anyway, sentiments aside, can you share cost of these "superior" batteries, neither your site or Valence has any cost info.

Also, all comparisons on Valence site are against Lead Acid. Is there any info on comparison between LiFePo4 and LiFeMgPo4 chemistries?

Also, Valence site shows C/2 rate of 100 ah , which is confusing since the rest of the world uses C rates for LiFePo4 products. To me this just looks like a gimmick trying to hide something. Clearly most EVs have 1C - 3C discharge rates, so posting C/2 is of little use.

IMHO, Valence will have to do a lot of work to earn the trust of DIY market.


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## EV-propulsion.com (Jun 1, 2009)

Ouch!
I would think they should have forwarded your inquiry to a dealer at least....
The cost of the 100A/h U-24 module is 1950.00
I will get you the correct answers for your C rate rating and comparison questions.
Mike
www.EV-propulsion.com


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## CFreeman54 (Jan 14, 2009)

Dimitri: I got the same brushoff from Valence about 6 months ago. In fact I got the same brush off from all American Li Ion manufacturers. This despite the fact I told them the car I was building might be reproduced in small run numbers (which is true, not a gimmick to get them to sell to me). Actually, all high tech. US battery manufacturers with the exception of one NiMHydride manufacturer gave me the brush off. I was not satisfied with the energy density of NiMHydride though. That is why I am headed to China in a few weeks to buy LiFePO4 batteries. And US companies wonder why they are losing out to foreign competitors.


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## dimitri (May 16, 2008)

EV-propulsion.com said:


> Ouch!
> I would think they should have forwarded your inquiry to a dealer at least....
> The cost of the 100A/h U-24 module is 1950.00
> I will get you the correct answers for your C rate rating and comparison questions.
> ...


Mike, please don't take it personally, I know you are just a reseller and you are doing a great job with your other products and conversions, etc. But how the heck do you expect people to pay $1950 for equivalent of 4 TS100AH cells ( $110 each x 4 = $440 ) ???

Obviously these come with built in sophisticated BMS, but equivalent of $377 per cell just for BMS alone is simply insane. Is that BMS made entirely of gold?

Maybe I am missing something, but where is the business model here?


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## 86Honda (Apr 15, 2009)

I also got the brush-off from Valence. Quite happy with my TS 100s right now, and won't be considering replacements for quite a while (I hope).

Maybe the business model is "squeeze all you can from American car manufacturers desperate to put out an electric product and wait for government money to pour in." That kind of leaves us DIY folks out in the cold...


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## EV-propulsion.com (Jun 1, 2009)

Dimitri
Unfortunately I don't set the price on these, but they are more than the TS. Of course there is the import duty of 10-12 % on those TS and the need for a bms adding it up 440+50+200=695 lets be a little fair....
Of course, there is allot of information on the valence website, so read up if anyone is interested, this way we don't have to print the website in this forum.. Ha ha
Valence batteries:
****Thousands of cycles at 100% DOD. The modules still have 80% capacity after 2800 cycles at C/2 charge and discharge rates
**safety-does not have thermal runaway problems as other lithium batteries-we all know of this problem
Safe against fire from impacts, overheating, see the video http://www.valence.com/technology/battery_safety/battery_safety_video
and read https://na4.salesforce.com/sfc/play/index.jsp?oid=00D6000000076DF&d=05D600000004CM3EAM
**Easy replacement for lead acid battery cars- no battery rack re-engineering, simple wiring, essentially the same as lead acid system
**The valence bms is very sophisticated system with :
-monitoring and control of cells for temp, voltage, current and soc, with warning alarms
-battery balance control, 
-drive train precharge control, 
-can control 4 contactors, 
-chassis to battery insulation measurement, 
-digital and analog I/O,
-charge control
-and more, see their operators manual

So to sum it up, yes it costs more than TS batteries, and they are not for everyone- If you want safety, high DOD and cycle life, a great sophisticated management system and a simple install these might be an option. 
If someone is just basing conclusions on price, there's always flooded lead acid....

P.S. I will follow up in this thread with the previous C rating questions soon....
The data states a 110A/h rating at C/5, will get other ratings if available


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## frodus (Apr 12, 2008)

We've got a BMS (which is more capable than you give credit) and the TS and SE cells for sale on EVComponents.com for a fraction of that price..... 

Not sure whats so great about those valence batteries.... No info on your website. The datasheet only shows 0.125C up to 1C on the discharge graph. EV'rs are using 3-4C, sometimes higher. Where's that discharge curve? The discharge curve is for what cell? all of them? I highly doubt that their voltage drop is all exactly the same.

I see that 150A continuous current on the 110A Ah (1.36C) and 300A pulse (2.72C) is shown for that cell. While it IS a higher energy density, its not enough weight savings and energy density increase to warrant that much of a cost increase.


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## EV-propulsion.com (Jun 1, 2009)

Hi Travis,
I did not mean to knock your bms system (or anyone elses) it looks very good-didn't think it would come over like that. Just stating what the valence system does. By the way, since everyone is talking costs, what is the average cost for your BMS system for the TS batts. In other words, what approximate cost does a 100-110 ah complete system run-batteries,bms,wiring etc-so we can legitimately compare.........
Also, I try to offer some different products, no sense competing with the same products, I'll leave the TS line for you-in fact I may be purchasing some soon....
Mike


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## dimitri (May 16, 2008)

Mike,

have you even tried these batteries yet? Are they available in stock? Has Valence given you any test units to "kick the tires"?

I would be very interested in real life conversion results with these cells and their BMS. Also, BMS usually has to interface with charger, does that mean Valence has compatible charger as well? Any info on charger?

Please realize that for experienced people all the data on Valence Web site means absolutely nothing until it can be proven by 3rd party. There are just too many "green" companies out there for whom "green" only means the color of money.

I think there is a good potential for this kind of product, if only the product is real and competitive with other products.

Its not that superior product shouldn't cost more, its just that cost difference here is so huge that it makes no sense, especially if product has not been proven in real life.

Again, nothing against you as a reseller, most of the remarks are towards Valence and their product. Please take it in a positive and constructive way  , lets not turn this thread into finger pointing...

I'm just wondering, what percentage of the battery cost should a good BMS cost? IMHO, its up to 20%, maybe others see it differently. What is the sense of BMS that cost same or more than the battery its managing? Might as well just replace bad cell here and there with that much money.


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## frodus (Apr 12, 2008)

EV-propulsion.com said:


> Hi Travis,
> I did not mean to knock your bms system (or anyone elses) it looks very good-didn't think it would come over like that. Just stating what the valence system does. By the way, since everyone is talking costs, what is the average cost for your BMS system for the TS batts. In other words, what approximate cost does a 100-110 ah complete system run-batteries,bms,wiring etc-so we can legitimately compare.........
> Also, I try to offer some different products, no sense competing with the same products, I'll leave the TS line for you-in fact I may be purchasing some soon....
> Mike


The BMS is based on the voltage level/number of cells (as its modular).

I'm getting some pricing right now (I work remotely from the Lacey Warehouse.


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## hardym (Apr 2, 2008)

There is a good BMS comparison chart of the current market for a 48 cell highway capable BMS systems in the back of the PPT presentation at this link:

http://convertthefuture.com/shop/index.php?main_page=page_4
then click on Lithium_BMS_Tutorial.ppt 

It is basically a marketing promo for a new, full featured BMS, in the sub $1k range.

Mark.


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## Lordwacky (Jan 28, 2009)

Here is actual pricing from my recent order from EVCOMPONENTS

--------------------------------------------------------------
Sky Energy 180AHR @ $198.0/cell x 48 = $9504 total
Elithion BMS x48 modules @ $43.75/cell = $2100
Shipping to US = 19.79/cell = $950 total
Domestic shipping quote (i did not use this) = $8.52 / Cell = 408.98 total

Total system cost with import duty and domestic shipping $270.06/cell.

Assuming 3.2V nominal at 180 ahr = 576 Whr / cell

Cost/ whr ~ $0.49

Note that domestic shipping and BMS $/cell will chang slighly based on location and battery configuration.

I have no vested interest in EVCOMPENTS and in no way represent them. Simply stating the facts. Competion is always welcome.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

I would expect to pay a higher price for a plug and play battery system, assuming equal or better performance, the question is how much is that convenience worth? It depends a lot on the individual but as the TS and SE cells get cheaper and better and cheaper BMS's are available the price difference will mean the Valence cells won't be worth the extra cash for most people, unless their prices drop as well.


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## EV-propulsion.com (Jun 1, 2009)

I think JRP sums it up pretty well, (thanks JRP)
Assuming similiar power the differences would be:
-_Safer battery chemistry_
-_plug and play_
-_easy replacement_ (could probably replace your lead acid to lithium
in an afternoon)
-_possibly more cycles_ 
-_bms can do more than is probably needed for DIY'er_ (once again, not to say other bms are not similiar in capabilities)
_*If these are inportant to someone than this would be an option.*_
If not, then we have heard the answer (loud and clear)
That is probably why they haven't been receptive to the DIY market and focus their market on OE vehicles-like Smith electric vehicles (UK) www.smithelectricvehicles.com , Segway, hybrid bus and truck manufacturers, etc. OEMs are sold on the safety factor in this chem- they don't need anymore BBQ cars (remember the Pinto?)-they don't necessarily use modules though, Valence sells custom cellpacks also), and they need a bms that can control the pack for the uninformed, non interested driving public.(_not_ the smart people on this forum that know what a high temp alarm for your pack means and knows what to do about it)
Will the price come down? Probably at some point-I'm sure it will always be more than building your own pack-sombody has to get paid to put these together. 
I offer these because some people may like to have them............


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

EV-propulsion.com said:


> Assuming similiar power the differences would be:
> -_Safer battery chemistry_


In what way? Prismatic LiFePO4 cells such as TS and SE have not been shown to be dangerous at all.


> -_possibly more cycles_


TS and SE cells typically have shown 2000 at 80% discharge and 3000 at 70% discharge, and the new spec sheets for TS cells are showing 3000 and 5000 cycles. I haven't seen anything suggesting Valence can do better.


> -_bms can do more than is probably needed for DIY'er_ (once again, not to say other bms are not similiar in capabilities)


There is a good argument being made by people such as Jack Rickard that a BMS doesn't need to do very much to protect the cells. That's all a BMS really needs to do is protect the cell, anything beyond that may be nice but is probably not worth the added cost. I can see where Valence would be concerned with "overprotecting" their cells since they are selling a complete product that may end up being treated as a drop in for lead acid and may not be hooked up to an ideal charging program. I do think there is a market for Valence, and if they can get the price down that market would expand. Unfortunately Valence seems to be selling through dealers, unlike the Chinese companies who will sell directly to individuals and group purchasers, so there is an extra price to be paid to the middle man who really adds no value. Nothing against you EVP, but I'd assume the price you pay for the Valence cells would make them look much more attractive since you need to make a profit as well. EVcomponents uses group buys to leverage better prices which helps them keep costs down in their conversion business, but I doubt they are making much profit on the cells themselves with the prices they are charging.


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## EVComponents (Apr 20, 2009)

Lordwacky said:


> Here is actual pricing from my recent order from EVCOMPONENTS
> 
> --------------------------------------------------------------
> Sky Energy 180AHR @ $198.0/cell x 48 = $9504 total
> Elithion BMS x48 modules @ $43.75/cell = $2100


If anyone else is seeking a more affordable BMS solution, we have other options.

We have a less expensive BMS solution at $21 per cell. That comes fully assembled. 
If you like soldering, we will sell you the basic BMS kit at $12 per cell. Some assembly required.

It does not have all of the bells an whistles of the Elithion BMS system. But it will provide the basics for LiFePO4 cells.

Contact Dave Kois or Travis Gintz if you are interested.
[email protected]
[email protected]


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## EV-propulsion.com (Jun 1, 2009)

Quote:
_In what way? Prismatic LiFePO4 cells such as TS and SE have not been shown to be dangerous at all._
see post #7's links. valence says they are all relatively safe unless there is a thermal runaway or major impact-valence claims no fire or explosions (but smoldering, etc) in extreme impact damage.....

Quote:_S and SE cells typically have shown 2000 at 80% discharge and 3000 at 70% discharge, and the new spec sheets for TS cells are showing 3000 and 5000 cycles. I haven't seen anything suggesting Valence can do better._
Well those new spec sheets make it about even I guess. valence claims "thousands of cycles at 100% dod-under normal conditions (C/2 charge and discharge rates, 23*C) I know whats coming, how many "thousands" and what about "real world" conditions....... I would assume they would then be about the same as other Li batts of = Ah
I believe that it's not the chemistry that lets them make the claim of more cycles, but the management system which can control charge and discharge rates if programmed in......for example, it can limit discharge rates if the temp rises past a programmed amount if the user sets it up that way....
here is a link to their basic spec sheet......

https://na4.salesforce.com/sfc/play/index.jsp?oid=00D6000000076DF&d=05D600000004CKp


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## kittydog42 (Sep 18, 2007)

I have purchased two sets of Valence batteries for use in conversions, one of which I installed and the other which I resold. In total, I purchased 25 BCI group 27 batteries at about $1700 each, with BMS. The batteries worked great, the tech support was great, and the installation was easy - but I could not say that they are worth the extra money over the TS cells considering that the TS batteries now come in modules of 4 batteries with included copper jumpers. It may be more work to connect the BMS to each individual cell, but the cost saving and similarity in quality make that a non-issue, in my opinion. There was a time when Valence could have made some inroads in the conversion market if they had wanted to, but they ultimately would not have gotten very far with their current pricing. They need to be at around 50% of where they are now to compete. 

I couldn't tell you any performance data on the Valence as I didn't really test it with an eye toward the battery performance.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

EV-propulsion.com said:


> Quote:
> _In what way? Prismatic LiFePO4 cells such as TS and SE have not been shown to be dangerous at all._
> see post #7's links. valence says they are all relatively safe unless there is a thermal runaway or major impact-valence claims no fire or explosions (but smoldering, etc) in extreme impact damage.....


Valence is comparing their cells to Lithium Cobalt cells, not other Lithium polymer cells.


> to demonstrate the safety aspects of our lithium iron magnesium phosphate technology compared to traditional metal-oxide battery technology. The video shows ballistics tests and standard industry tests performed on a lithium-ion cobalt-oxide 2590 battery and on 18650 cells, as well as the same products that utilize Valence’s lithium iron magnesium phosphate technology.


 Other LiPo cells have demonstrated the same safety as Valence, so that's a non issue.


> Quote:_S and SE cells typically have shown 2000 at 80% discharge and 3000 at 70% discharge, and the new spec sheets for TS cells are showing 3000 and 5000 cycles. I haven't seen anything suggesting Valence can do better._
> Well those new spec sheets make it about even I guess. valence claims "thousands of cycles at 100% dod-under normal conditions (C/2 charge and discharge rates, 23*C) I know whats coming, how many "thousands" and what about "real world" conditions....... I would assume they would then be about the same as other Li batts of = Ah


C/2 is a pretty low discharge rate in EV usage so that's not a realistic number. TS and SE cells are rated constant 3C and 4C respectively.
So to sum up it appears the only advantage the Valence cells offer over TS and SE cells is a prepackaged complete solution that makes installation easier and *may* provide better cell protection and thereby give longer service life. A disadvantage beyond the price is they seem to have lower C ratings, 2C constant and 3C max according to this sheet
https://na4.salesforce.com/sfc/play/index.jsp?oid=00D6000000076DF&d=05D600000004CLYEA2


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## EV-propulsion.com (Jun 1, 2009)

Kittydog,
I'd like to know who you spoke with there because I can't even get the group 24's for that price ! That would make the 110 ah group 24 cost around 1300, which is more reasonable. That would make a pack around 13k, a _little _closer to TS costs. I think some investigation is in order!


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## kittydog42 (Sep 18, 2007)

I did not personally work out the pricing or make the actual purchase, I had a partner in on the transaction. Unfortunately, he passed away last December, so I can't ask him. The original intent was to purchase some inventory and we had a sales goal of $500,000 and that was how pricing was arranged. I could not continue the arrangement since he was the money man. The car I built as his demo/driver was a 2000 Miata that used them. The other car is a 2002 Dodge Dakota that has 12 of them under a tilt bed. That car will have under 500 lbs of battery weight. The Miata turned out great, with a 60 mile range (in Seattle) and it feels very light on the road. Retrofits would be a good application for these batteries.

Good luck with the product.


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