# Planning 2007 Jeep Wrangler Unlimited Conversion



## rillip3 (Jun 19, 2009)

The kit looks like it contains a lot more than usual, but I'm concerned that the controller will be anemic for you. You're going to need a better controller for that vehicle on that kind of incline; it's only a 400 A max controller. If money isn't an obstacle, I'd shop around for a 1k controller, as steep hills mean a lot of accelleration and you'll need high amps for that. At the very least, go with the 1231C, which is a 500 A unit. Maybe talk with them about how much it would cost to do a swap in for the highest amped controller they have.

As for the jeep, I'm going to give it a 450 wh/mi estimate. That's pretty high, I'd normally say 300 as a very conservative estimate for most cars. At 450 wh/mi x 32 mi x .80 (to maintain safe depth of discharge) you need 13 kWh. GIven that it's lithium (NiMH isn't really worth considering), Puekert shouldn't have too much to say. That's a fairly small pack, however, given the Amps you're going to be pulling. I'd look for at least 20 kWh to give you some wiggle room for hill climbing. 20kWh @ 144v (I wouldn't recommend less given the weight and charachteristics of the vehicle) you'd need 138 Ah batteries. I think TS and SE make 150's. I know they make 200s. I think I'd probably go with those so long as money is no object.

Edit: Two other things. 1) If you went AC, you could have a higher voltage and set up regen. Which, if you are driving down the mountain at the end of the drive would give you a big boost to range. But if not, it won't really help. I can't offer much advice on AC though, they're significantly more hands on with some of the electrics and I have not looked into it that much. 2) Be very careful about the tachometer. Either make 100% sure it's working perfectly or figure out the gearing and make warning labels. Steep hills are a good way to over rev the motor and start it on fire. You'll probably want to put extra cooling (heat sinks, maybe an air intake fan) on the controller and motor as well, as they're going to get nice and warm going up that incline.
Might want to check out http://www.driveev.com/jeepev/home.php, pretty good conversion blog that details what he's done for his Jeep.

Edit 2: to answer your question, a contactor is a safety device, it cuts power to the controller in the event of a failure. Similar to a circuit breaker in concept, not sure what the mechanical difference is.


----------



## madderscience (Jun 28, 2008)

32 miles (one way or round trip, you didn't say...) and 5500 feet of elevation gain in a converted Jeep... Sorry to say it, but you ARE interested in range, even if you think you aren't.

450WH/mile is a decent estimate for a jeep running at 55mph on LEVEL ground. To figure the energy needed to climb to a certain altitude, which is going to be quite significant in your case, you can use the equation

U=mgh

or energy(in joules) = mass (kilograms) X gravitational constant (9.8mss) X altitude change (meters)

so to plug in some rough numbers (and also converting from joules to KwH):

2000 kilogram (4500lb) vehicle * 9.8mss * 1600M == 8.7Kwh needed just for the elevation gain. Round that number up to probably about 11 or 12 KwH to account for driveline/motor/controller inefficiency.

So at 450wH/mile * 32 miles == 14.4Kwh to go the 32 miles, and another 12 say to climb the altitude and you are at 26Kwh. If the 32 miles is one way, then you need some more margin for the downhill side. A rough guess here is another 14.4Kwh, MINUS the gained gravitational potential energy, or 8.7KwH. so going home might take about 6Kwh. 

You need a 40KwH usable energy pack, minimum. That is a BIG ASS pack. The Tesla roadster has a 60KwH pack, for comparison.

a 240 volt, 200AH lithium pack would give 48KwH nominal. About 80% of that would be usable, to give a good lifespan, so there is your 40KwH, give or take. 

Also, since you are dealing with mountain driving here, I think that AC drivetrain is a REQUIREMENT. This is simply because you are going to burn up your brakes on the downhill without it. Ever tried coasting down a mountain in neutral? This is what it will be like in an EV without regen. The regen that AC provides is a requirement in your case. Make sure the system can safely keep the vehicle slowed down to a comfortable speed on the steepest downhill you will navigate.

ensure your controller/inverter has excellent cooling. It will need it for the climb AND the descent. Ensure your batteries can charge almost as fast as they discharge. They will need that ability to allow the regen to keep you slowed down. I'm not sure prismatic lithiums can handle that kind of charging rate. You may even need a dump load similar to what hydroelectric plants have so that your regen braking will not be lost when your batteries get too warm or too full from the charging. As for the motor, you probably want a 30HP continuous rated inverter/motor combination. Your options are limited here.

Your budget is going to be well into the tens of thousands; most of that will be the batteries. You really need to do your homework to get this right.

But if you do, you will have one awesome EV.

Final note but you sound like you may not want to hear it: You could divide pretty much all these requirements in half with a smaller, lighter vehicle....

Good luck.


----------



## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Yeah, you need an AC system. www.evcomponents.com has some left over Azure Dynamics AC55 systems. They have the older UMOC inverter which might take some tweaking to get working, but for the price I don't think anything else comes close.
Theoretically you could also use a Sepex, separately excited DC system to get regen, but they don't make controllers big enough for what you need.
Actually you could do a regular series DC system with a belt driven modified alternator for regen as well, a few have done so successfully. Roland Wiench on the EVDL has been driving a 7000lb Elcamino like this for years, maybe a Land rover as well, I'll have to look.
http://go-ev.net/
http://www.evalbum.com/470
Here's one solution:
http://www.northrim.net/wyanders/ev/regeneration.html
Land Rover:
http://www.evparts.com/galleries_zoom.php?GALLERIESTAG=2


----------



## dimitri (May 16, 2008)

> a 240 volt, 200AH lithium pack would give 48KwH nominal. About 80% of that would be usable, to give a good lifespan, so there is your 40KwH, give or take.


Of course this pack would weigh about 1000Lb, so 4000lb Jeep suddenly became 5000lb Jeep, which skews your elevation power formula, which now requires even more power to climb, which adds even more battery weight, and round and round we go 

Don't even bother looking at kits for your project. You need to hand pick the best of the best EV components to get even close to your climbing requirements, especially battery/motor/controller combo.

Like others said, forget about DC motors and anything other than Lithium battery, even Lithium is too heavy for your needs.

OTOH, regen with LiFePO4 is not an issue, they can take 3C charge, so I highly doubt that your regen will hurt the battery, but still it would have to be carefully monitored and will need BMS cutoff in case there is overcharge.

Overcharge is only possible if you start from the top of the hill with full charge, are you planning to charge while at the top elevation? If not, then no worries since you will spend most energy climbing and regen will not bring most of it back during descent.

just my $0.02


----------



## dragster (Sep 3, 2008)

Hi
For a Jeep conversion you will need two step to fallow step 1 AC system step 2 see step 1. (Batteries thunder sky) weight for 12 volt is 24LB you will need 105 batteries at 3.2 volts + 5 Exeter because if you have a bad battery you may not be able to get the same one as they are developing new ones all the time. Good luck it is not a problem with a Jeep and hill's are ok but not with AGM batteries there to heavy. please have a look at our Ford Explorer.
http://www.discbrakesrus.com/make/fordtruck/electriccar.htm


----------



## etischer (Jun 16, 2008)

If you could eliminate the cast iron engine, transfer case, front differential & driveshaft; you could probably break even weight wise with lithium. 

I can quite comfortably push my 4000 lb Passat up a 6% grade @65 mph using 200A @300v which is roughly 75% of my max torque. 

(Sunol grade southbound for those in the San Francisco Bay Area)

On the way down I regen about 40A back into the battery. As long as you can reach the top, you should be able to regen power back in for the rest of your journey if you use AC.


----------



## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

If you do away with the 4 wheel drive system there is no point at all in using a Jeep then. Might as well just start with a 2 wheel drive S10 or something similar and have a more efficient conversion.


----------



## etischer (Jun 16, 2008)

Well, you don't see too many convertible S10s =) A Jeep would make a fun ev, it's like the Geo metro of SUVs



JRP3 said:


> If you do away with the 4 wheel drive system there is no point at all in using a Jeep then. Might as well just start with a 2 wheel drive S10 or something similar and have a more efficient conversion.


----------



## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

etischer said:


> Well, you don't see too many convertible S10s =)


Put in a sun roof? I agree a Jeep EV would be cool, but to a former hard core 4 wheeler such as myself a 2 wheel drive Jeep is sacrilege  Postal Jeeps don't count either


----------



## meat (Jul 13, 2009)

Thanks, guys, for the quick responses!

I'm given to understand that one of the primary reasons to go AC is because of the regen braking, is that correct? I'm a little hesitant to go down the AC fork solely because there doesn't seem to be a consensus of opinion when it comes to parts. I'd rather not go with leftover parts or put something together that would require constant 'jiggling of the handle' (so to speak). I want to do the install, close the hood and drive it like I stole it.

Brake-wise, I've already converted over to the Grand Cherokee SRT8's ginormous Brembo rotors & calipers. I've never had brake fade, and I do coast down the mountain in neutral when I can.

Honestly, I'd like a kit. Not that I'm Henry Ford or anything, but I'd really like to go with a 'proven' package that - if I had the inclination - I could install in Jeep after Jeep after Jeep. (I don't have that inclination, but if I used off-the shelf parts rather than remnants, I'd probably be able to find those same parts in the future if I had a failure). If I had to create a kit - something I could do over and over - that'd be fine. The problem there is that with a DC kit, I understand the parts I need. With AC ... I don't know if the parts are the same or not. And - in looking at the NuWiki here - there are a whole lot of question marks in the specs. That causes me some conern.

And, yes, I'd like to keep the 4WD. Seems kind of silly to have a 4x4 that's not a 4x4. I can see ditching the engine, tranny and transfer case ... but then I'd need a motor for the front & rear axles. Which kind of makes for twice as many headaches, right? 

I'm just spitballin' here, but ... if I hooked two motors right up to the axles (one each, obviously), I could have 2WD (rear), 4WD, or 2WD (front). In armchair mechanic's three-beers-downed theory, anyway. And that would kind of be an interesting little thing, if I hooked up the ARB lockers I've got sitting on a shelf somewhere.

As a side note, I dig the Tesla. I had an Elise, and I got to drive a Tesla last Saturday. It is heavier, but ... if they can fit all those batteries in there, then I should have no problem fitting them all inside the Wrangler. It's a kick in the pants to drive.

Finally ... have we reached an accord that 450Wh/mi is the right number for driving the Wrangler at 70-75mph on a highway, or is that the number to drive at 55?

Again, thank you very much for your help! I really appreciate it!

Your pal,
Meat.


----------



## DavidDymaxion (Dec 1, 2008)

How much weight can be saved with a fiberglass or aluminum body? Lighter wheels? Aluminum driveshaft?

You could block the grill, lower the vehicle slightly, and get the narrowest wheels that would do the job to help aero slightly. Raking back the windshield, chopping the top, and a belly pan would help the aero further. You could also do smaller rear view mirrors, and shave things that stick out the sides. You'd lessen the frontal area maybe 5%, maybe improve the Cd a bit, and still look like and function like a Jeep. (You could also get the same benefit by going 65 instead of 70.)



meat said:


> ... The level of performance I'm hoping to get: on a flat surface - like, for instance, a freeway - I'd like to be able to go 70MPH. Maybe 75. If I can get help on performance, that'd be great. If anyone can help me figure out how to push 4,000lbs of car with a virtually flat frontal area of roughly 30sqft at those speeds, you'd have my hearty thanks. ...


----------



## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

The wh/mi figure will change a lot depending on speed, wind, and incline. If you're trying to maintain 70 going up a long hill in a Jeep you could pull a lot more than that. There are formulas to figure all this out somewhere, but basically it takes a whole lot more energy to do 65 than 55 just because of wind resistance alone, especially in a Jeep. None of those kits you mentioned will be up to the task of powering the Jeep the way you want, the Curtis controller just doesn't have enough guts to do it. Anything you are trying to build is going to be custom and take a lot of work. You will need a powerful controller and large lithium cells to handle the amperage draw. There are limited choices at this time, Zilla if you can find one, Synkromotive maybe, Electrocraft, EVnetics when they are done testing, maybe Logisystems if they've fixed their problems. 
Another benefit of AC systems is they often use higher voltage which keeps amperage down.

Edit: The Raptor controller might be powerful enough.


----------



## meat (Jul 13, 2009)

DavidDymaxion said:


> How much weight can be saved with a fiberglass or aluminum body? Lighter wheels? Aluminum driveshaft?
> 
> You could block the grill, lower the vehicle slightly, and get the narrowest wheels that would do the job to help aero slightly. Raking back the windshield, chopping the top, and a belly pan would help the aero further. You could also do smaller rear view mirrors, and shave things that stick out the sides. You'd lessen the frontal area maybe 5%, maybe improve the Cd a bit, and still look like and function like a Jeep. (You could also get the same benefit by going 65 instead of 70.)


Everything you say is all great advice.

I should probably point out that the Jeep in question is already lifted with big wheels and tires, it has the (remarkably heavy) hard top, and ... well ... it's a Jeep. 

My other choice is a HMMWV. The Jeep IS the better Cd, lighter option! 



JRP3 said:


> The wh/mi figure will change a lot depending on speed, wind, and incline. If you're trying to maintain 70 going up a long hill in a Jeep you could pull a lot more than that. There are formulas to figure all this out somewhere, but basically it takes a whole lot more energy to do 65 than 55 just because of wind resistance alone, especially in a Jeep. None of those kits you mentioned will be up to the task of powering the Jeep the way you want, the Curtis controller just doesn't have enough guts to do it. Anything you are trying to build is going to be custom and take a lot of work. You will need a powerful controller and large lithium cells to handle the amperage draw. There are limited choices at this time, Zilla if you can find one, Synkromotive maybe, Electrocraft, EVnetics when they are done testing, maybe Logisystems if they've fixed their problems.
> Another benefit of AC systems is they often use higher voltage which keeps amperage down.
> 
> Edit: The Raptor controller might be powerful enough.


Thanks (again!).

I don't think I can do 70 up the hill, I always manage to get stuck behind the guy in the sputtering Honda doing 25MPH who doesn't understand the simply-worded sign that says "Slow Traffic Use Turnouts," and who sees the passing lane as a reason to speed up to 70 ... then slow back down to 25 when the lane ends. I'm lucky if I see 40 going up the hill.

So ... to modify: Maybe 40-45 up the hill, 70-75 on a nice, flat highway.

Am I still in AC territory? I probably wouldn't have so many questions about AC if I could find more specifics on the motors. I'll have a nice big BBQ up in Big Bear for all of you!

Your pal,
Meat.


----------



## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

If you can live with 40-45 up the hill that makes life easier. For a DC system I think I'd look at a Warp9 or Warp11 motor running 156 volts, 48 lithium phosphate cells, 180-200 ahs each which would let you pull 540-600amps continuous, costing about $11k for the pack. That would give you a 28KWH pack which assuming an average use of 400 watt hours /mile might get you about a 60 mile usable range. Higher wh/mi = less range, and vice versa.

The big problem with AC systems is limited availability and much higher prices for most of them. You could look at electroauto which I think has the newer version of the AC55 with the DMOC controller, but if you don't really care about regen it's probably not worth it. Metric mind has high end AC systems but you're probably looking at $12K and up for a big enough unit for your application.
http://www.electroauto.com/catalog/acmotors.shtml
http://www.metricmind.com/


----------



## meat (Jul 13, 2009)

JRP3 said:


> If you can live with 40-45 up the hill that makes life easier. For a DC system I think I'd look at a Warp9 or Warp11 motor running 156 volts, 48 lithium phosphate cells, 180-200 ahs each which would let you pull 540-600amps continuous, costing about $11k for the pack. That would give you a 28KWH pack which assuming an average use of 400 watt hours /mile might get you about a 60 mile usable range. Higher wh/mi = less range, and vice versa.
> 
> The big problem with AC systems is limited availability and much higher prices for most of them. You could look at electroauto which I think has the newer version of the AC55 with the DMOC controller, but if you don't really care about regen it's probably not worth it. Metric mind has high end AC systems but you're probably looking at $12K and up for a big enough unit for your application.
> http://www.electroauto.com/catalog/acmotors.shtml
> http://www.metricmind.com/


Thanks (again!)!

Would the 400Wh be the bottom and 500Wh be the high ends of the "Wh" envelope, then? I'm looking into the Warp motors you recommended even as you read this.

Thank you all VERY much!

Your pal,
Meat.


----------



## DavidDymaxion (Dec 1, 2008)

Something to keep in mind is those are level ground numbers. Going up a 6% grade at 40 mph jumps it up to roughly around 1300 Whr/mile. This could be important if you are doing a one way trip that is uphill.


meat said:


> Thanks (again!)!
> 
> Would the 400Wh be the bottom and 500Wh be the high ends of the "Wh" envelope, then? I'm looking into the Warp motors you recommended even as you read this.
> 
> ...


----------



## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Yeah I was estimating average numbers, a long up hill would be worse, but the long downhill would be a lot better. It sounds as if you could make most of the downhill coasting.


----------



## Joel (Jul 29, 2008)

I have to jump in with the rest of this crew and suggest again that AC is the way to go for a big truck like this.

I understand your weariness on the lack of AC information out there, this link has been posted, but I'll bring it up again anyways, this guy is the source of AC installation kits. (all repeatable, sourcable, new parts)
http://metricmind.com/ (think high end like _zilla _high end, but AC instead of DC)
it isn't popular among the DC crowd because it is more expensive, but you get what you pay for and since your other choice is a Hummer, I don't think you are worried about the price.


----------



## meat (Jul 13, 2009)

Okay.

So.

After all the reading (and more research ... I need a new calculator), I'm fairly certain that on the Wrangler I'm going to still go DC. The sole reason for this is the lack of info on AC stuff, the conflicting information that IS available, and the inability of me - the new guy - to find any way to make sure I can get replacement parts down the line. I'm sure I can ... somewhere. But I'd still like my first EV to be 'state of the shelf' rather than 'state of the art.'

For my next EV ... sure, I'll give AC a try if there's a way (and it'll be an even larger vehicle, too. I like seeing over traffic!). And, with an EV it appears that sneaking up on the neighborhood cats is even MORE fun than sneaking up on them with an R/C car. I'm interested in seeking how wide they REALLY can open their eyes when they're surpised. I'm a simple guy... If the cats want to walk all over my car right after I've washed it, then it seems only fair that I get to sneak up on them in a Jeep an honk.

Cats jump really high.

I'm just sayin'...

With that disclaimer, here's the list of stuff I would like to use. It appears that the only Achille's Heel part here is the Z2K. Everything else is off the shelf (and available from more than one source, too!):

Warp 11 motor
Zilla Z2K (or a Raptor 1200)
Curtis PB-6 throttle
Albright #SW-200B contactor
Ferraz-Shawmut A15QS500-4 fuse
AirPax circuit breaker
power cabling (4 Gauge SAE Style Battery Terminals, 2/0 Gauge Welding Cable MAGNA Lugs, 2/0 Gauge Welding Cable, Welding Cable Tool Kit, Heat Shrink Pieces)
Zivan NG_Battery Charger
Zivan NG1-DC DC/DC converter
10-pos. Barrier Strip
Glastic Insulating Mounts
Waytech Fuse Mounts and a gauge set (Westberg Voltmeter, Westberg Ammeter, DELTEC MKB-500-50 and MKA-50-50, Westberg Tachometer, Westberg Tach sending Unit, Curtis Fuel Gauge)

For the batteries ... I keep hearing about the Kokam Large Capacity SLPB series. Is this a good choice? It looks like there are several different options available. At this point, I defer to anyone who can point me to whatever is the best choice. The kokam site I've been given is:

http://www.kokam.com/english/product/battery_main.html

Thanks again for all your help!

Your pal,
Meat.


----------



## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

I think Kokams have a relatively short cycle life and a high price.


----------



## meat (Jul 13, 2009)

Okay, so here's what I've discovered since the last post:

Daimler is an evil company. They took the simple layout of the Wrangler and put sooooooo much computer chicanery under the skin that it's virtually impossible wean the rig off the wiring that has infected it.

ESP ... the bane of anyone whose had control of their Wrangler taken away by the computer ... REALLY doesn't like being disconnected. And BOY, does it not like being put back together!

Maybe the Wrangler was a bad plan. I may go back to the Hummer. It all depends on if this headache goes away.


----------



## gte718p (Jul 30, 2009)

For the EV thing, I would strip the Jeep down to the bare tub. We do it all the time with 4x4's we build. The only effective way to deal with the computer is to remove everything. Painless makes a nice wiring harness for your critical circuits aka lights, radio. Everything under the hood is going to be custom anyway. You do lose Brake booster, ABS, ESC doing that, but a Chevy master bolts right in and will provide all the stopping power you want.


----------



## meat (Jul 13, 2009)

gte718p said:


> For the EV thing, I would strip the Jeep down to the bare tub. We do it all the time with 4x4's we build. The only effective way to deal with the computer is to remove everything. Painless makes a nice wiring harness for your critical circuits aka lights, radio. Everything under the hood is going to be custom anyway. You do lose Brake booster, ABS, ESC doing that, but a Chevy master bolts right in and will provide all the stopping power you want.


Thanks!

I was kind of hoping that I wouldn't have to lose anything other than the engine management stuff (it's got a manual tranny), and would be able to keep all the wiring for the power windows, stereo, etc.


----------



## gte718p (Jul 30, 2009)

You don't really have to lose anything you just have to modify it. The brake stuff all takes input from the motor. Inputs your about to eliminate. It might be possible to recreate it, but its easier to eliminate it. All the creature comfort things can stay. They just might need to be rewired.

For something as new as an 07 there is not a separate engine and chassis harness. They are intertwined. Everything works off the CAN bus, and you have sensors everywhere. 

Its possible to sort out the circuits you want to keep, and separate them out of the harness. However its a pain in the @$$ and generally takes more time and frustration then starting over from a clean slate. You run into issues like the radio is tied into the can bus or the airbag circuit and A/C system are looking for a specific inputs. If you don't replicate everything perfectly the system gets mad and reacts unpredictably.

If I was going to do a jeep I would probably start with something simple like a CJ5.


----------



## dragster (Sep 3, 2008)

Hi

With Lithium batteries and AC drive 70 MPH & 70 mile range no problem as for the difficulty of an AC system this is a very simple system 336 volt DC in to the controller and 336 volts AC three phase out to motor and that is it. (Do not remove any of the wiring or the computer) if you would like to remove any wiring please call my before you do.
In our video we go up a 15 percent grade and shift into second gear on the way up. Note: our Explore weights 5300 LB with lead batteries,Lithiums batteries are 600 LB less (24 LB per 13 volt) Size for 13 volt battery is 7x11x8
Hope this is of help thanks Tom



http://www.htcracing.com/electriccar.htm


http://www.htcracing.com/


----------



## meat (Jul 13, 2009)

dragster said:


> Hi
> 
> With Lithium batteries and AC drive 70 MPH & 70 mile range no problem as for the difficulty of an AC system this is a very simple system 336 volt DC in to the controller and 336 volts AC three phase out to motor and that is it. (Do not remove any of the wiring or the computer) if you would like to remove any wiring please call my before you do.
> In our video we go up a 15 percent grade and shift into second gear on the way up. Note: our Explore weights 5300 LB with lead batteries,Lithiums batteries are 600 LB less (24 LB per 13 volt) Size for 13 volt battery is 7x11x8
> ...


THANKS!

Now ... As i've previously mentioned, I've had a hell of a time trying to figure out AC. With the DC bits, I can buy a kit. But AC seems to be still in the 'experimental' stages where I can't just buy a kit off the shelf. As silly as it sounds, I really want reproducible results. When I finish THIS Jeep, can i build another with exactly the same parts?

Any help you can offer is GREAT and APPRECIATED!


----------



## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

You can do AC, it will just cost you more. Look through www.metricmind.com, Brusa makes some good sized AC motors, Siemens too.
The HPG AC motors that I'm using are too small for what you want.


----------



## gte718p (Jul 30, 2009)

dragster said:


> Hi
> 
> With Lithium batteries and AC drive 70 MPH & 70 mile range no problem as for the difficulty of an AC system this is a very simple system 336 volt DC in to the controller and 336 volts AC three phase out to motor and that is it. (Do not remove any of the wiring or the computer) if you would like to remove any wiring please call my before you do.
> In our video we go up a 15 percent grade and shift into second gear on the way up. Note: our Explore weights 5300 LB with lead batteries,Lithiums batteries are 600 LB less (24 LB per 13 volt) Size for 13 volt battery is 7x11x8
> ...


I'm not sure how that keeps from eleminating the computer. The ECU is still going to be looking for a lot of signals that an electric motor is just not going to generate. Without the signals the computer gets mad and does strange things. 

Good luck. I love doing maintance on modern cars. Its so easy to diagnos problems. I hate doing custom work on them, it is just to much of a pain.


----------



## natharri3 (Jul 31, 2009)

Meat, I am going with a wrangler just for cruising the Atlantic Ocean beaches and the road that parallels it.

Have my eye on a 1998 CJ7 that's structurally sound.

Against everything I read but I am doing it. I will keep a watch out for your battery selection.

I am just looking for 35 MPH and 50 mile range. Converting that to 4 wheel drive in the sand? Who knows.


----------



## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

If it's a 1998 it's not a CJ7.


----------



## few2many (Jun 23, 2009)

Tj or Yj?
probably a YJ.
my "63 wagoneer would be cool as an ev, not the least bit efficient though.


----------



## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

1998 would be a TJ. YJ was 87-95, CJ's before that.


----------



## natharri3 (Jul 31, 2009)

Got a lead on a 1977 that from pictures looks promising. I plan to inspect sometime this week.


----------



## meat (Jul 13, 2009)

JRP3 said:


> You can do AC, it will just cost you more. Look through www.metricmind.com, Brusa makes some good sized AC motors, Siemens too.
> The HPG AC motors that I'm using are too small for what you want.


Cost, really, isn't the issue. The biggest fear I've got is that I'll end up buying into something like the EVISOL thing that seems to have happened to metricmind.

My biggest driving force is: repeatable results. Off the shelf components.

I'm not trying to create a one-off car. If I wanted to do that, I'd drive my rig over to Chip Foose's shop and let him have his way with it. It would really turn me off EVs if I got stuck with something I could never replace parts on. That would suck. I could tell you stories about things as simple as a 12VDC, 15A dimmer switch that broke and required me to not only get a completely different switch (the company that made the old switch went out of business), but also to rewire everything. I don't want to do that again.


----------



## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

In the EV world just about everything is cutting edge in that there aren't many standards. However an EV is pretty modular so you can switch components without redoing the whole system. The exceptions of course are that for the most part AC motors need matching controllers. Everything else can be interchanged and adapted.
For most flexibility a series DC setup with a warp/ADC bolt pattern gives you access to the most motor to trans adapters and largest controller selection. On the AC side an interesting looking company is www.calmotors.com. Might be worth talking to them, and if cost is no issue then just get two of everything for backups


----------



## meat (Jul 13, 2009)

dragster said:


> Hi
> 
> With Lithium batteries and AC drive 70 MPH & 70 mile range no problem as for the difficulty of an AC system this is a very simple system 336 volt DC in to the controller and 336 volts AC three phase out to motor and that is it. (Do not remove any of the wiring or the computer) if you would like to remove any wiring please call my before you do.
> In our video we go up a 15 percent grade and shift into second gear on the way up. Note: our Explore weights 5300 LB with lead batteries,Lithiums batteries are 600 LB less (24 LB per 13 volt) Size for 13 volt battery is 7x11x8
> ...


Okay. I've watched all the videos, and you've certainly got my attention. I am curious as to why the AC system is 336V (while the Warp 11 is 144V). I'm (not being an electrical engineer) guessing that the amps are way lower on the AC system, right?

And you've incorporated the transmission ... is that difficult? Will this setup work with a manual tranny? And what is the switch thingy on the Explorer's center console? Do I need that with an automatic? Do I need that with a manual?

Now ... given that the Wrangler has wiring and electronics out the wazoo, would it be easier to convert over the 6,500lb Hummer H1 and get it to go 70MPH (and the same uphill/downhill thing from the first post in this thread).

I started off with a plan. No, I started off with a vision and developed a plan. No, I had an idea for a vision that evolved into a plan. No, I've just got a headache...

Thanks for your input!


----------



## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

AC systems can more easily use higher voltage than series DC systems and yes higher voltage can mean lower amperage.


----------



## dragster (Sep 3, 2008)

Hi Meat
The hummer would require the next size up motor and would not get the miles that the Jeep would. 
And AC system uses less amps and with regen brakes this is a must for hills as not only dose it put amps back in the batters it makes the vehicle drive just like the gas engine.

Manual transmission or auto makes no different.
The switch in the console is a safety switch so you can't put the throttle to the floor and turn the key on with it in gear. This would not be good for the trans or rear end.
All wiring and the computer stay in place as you need them for the 4 wheel drive and all accessories. Also controller has built in temp regulated cooling fans
Hope this is of help
Thanks Tom


----------



## meat (Jul 13, 2009)

Dragster, I'm really interested in what you've done with that Explorer. I like the idea of a transmission.

Sorry I've been away so long, but I've been tinkerin'. Nothing to show yet Jeep-wise, but I do have a new electrical scar.


----------



## meat (Jul 13, 2009)

car123 said:


> This is really an important conversation. I'm hoping to get: on a flat surface - like, for instance, a freeway - I'd like to be able to go 70MPH. Maybe 75. If I can get help on performance, that'd be great.


err ... what?


----------



## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

meat said:


> err ... what?


Spam bot, now killed.


----------



## meat (Jul 13, 2009)

JRP3 said:


> Spam bot, now killed.


Ah. Them spambots be gettin' pretty smart!


----------



## ehustinx (Dec 23, 2009)

meat said:


> Cost, really, isn't the issue. The biggest fear I've got is that I'll end up buying into something like the EVISOL thing that seems to have happened to metricmind.
> 
> My biggest driving force is: repeatable results. Off the shelf components.
> 
> ...


----------



## dragster (Sep 3, 2008)

Hi
Let me know when you are ready and I will give you all the help I can
Thanks Tom Reid


----------



## frk2 (Jan 2, 2009)

Just to add to the conversation regarding regen and LiFePo4 batteries (from thundersky am assuming) taking 3C charge - I had a conversation with TS regarding fast charging the cells at 3C current. They say that it would definitely degrade cycle life. Constantly charging at 3C is not recommended. They basically said 1.5C Max if I wanted to see that 3000 cycle life.


----------

