# 1951 Citroen Traction Avant 11BL Conversion



## KiwiPete (Aug 2, 2019)

I’ve been lurking on here for a while. I’ve been wanting to do an EV conversion and its taken a while to find a car that I felt I would want to drive once the conversion is complete. I’ll admit from the go that, while its nice to be environmentally friendly, I feel that the finished product will have to be something that I want to drive. Some style, a bit of power and a certain “cool” factor (at least in my own head). 
This car does it for me.

Skill level with auto mechanics/fabrication: I’ve restored/rebuilt a couple of cars as a teenager/early 20s. Some Minis and a Land Rover. I have minimal fabrication experience, but that’s going to improve significantly with the rust I’ll need to remediate in this.

Skill with electronics/tech. I’m a software developer working with embedded systems. I’ve got good basic electronic skills as well as being comfortable with auto electrics.

Range: I live in Santa Ana, Southern California. I’d like to be able to drive to Los Angeles and back without being too concerned about range. That would mean around 120-150 miles.
Performance: The original car had 55hp and a factory stated top speed of 71mph. 0-60 of around 30 seconds. I’d like to be able to drive on the freeway (so 80mph max). Cruise at ~70, which puts me in the slow lane around here. Some power will be nice but I’m not planning on racing it.
Budget. I figure I’ll have 15-20K in the EV components once its done. Plus restoration costs.

This will effectively be a resto mod – but one of my goals is that at a 5-10 ft range it shouldn’t be apparent that anything significant has been changed. I want to keep the essence of the car and its style.

While the exterior is in pretty decent shape, the interior is roached. The floor is completely rusted out, as well as the sills. I’m viewing this as an opportunity to build a battery tray in the floor so I can use Tesla batteries. I don’t plan on putting batteries under the hood or in the boot.

Drive train is complicated – and something I could use recommendations on. I had originally hoped to use a complete Nissan Leaf stack, but its too wide across the CV joints. I’ll add some pictures of the space I have to work with under the hood.


----------



## KiwiPete (Aug 2, 2019)

A significant chunk of the front end sheet metal is structural, as seen in the first picture (not mine – internet sourced). I have ~325mm side to side in the engine compartment and ~500mm from the back of the engine compartment to the centerline of the CV joints. There is space forward of the CV joints that is occupied by the gearbox. I’ll get better measurements this weekend.

I’m not planning on reusing the original gearbox. It’s an 85 year old design and parts are expensive, so I'll seed to solve for transmission and diff also.

I've added an (internet sourced) image of the gearbox - showing how the bulk of its length comes forward of the CV joints. I estimate I've got about 400mm forward - so around 900mm total with the engine.


----------



## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

The Traction Avant powertrain is fundamentally the same as generations of rear-engine cars, just sitting at the front end of the car... think VW Beetle. A practical layout may be to place the motor longitudinally ahead of the axle line (so in the location of the transmission portion of the stock transaxle), driving a final drive unit (ring-and-pinion gears and differential) in the stock location of those components. For this to work, a high ring and pinion ratio or motor suited to low speed would be needed. If someone looks under the front, the motor would look about like the transmission did.

This would leave the entire original engine space for battery modules (with electronics on top); Tesla Model S/X modules are too long but there are others. I realize that this is not the intention, but the unibody design which is one of the features that made the Traction Avant advanced is also the feature which will make underfloor modules impractical. The floor of any production EV with an under-floor battery (which is most of them) is specifically designed to fit the battery pack, with the interior floor at or above the top of the sills, in contrast to the normal practice of the floor at the bottom of the sills - that's why getting into a Tesla is like getting into a pickup truck, with the floor higher than would be expected given the door opening.

Even if you build a completely custom floor, the space available between the firewall and the rear suspension (less than 1700 mm) is very small compared to the battery case of a Tesla Model S or X, so only a small fraction of large (665 x 302 mm plus structure and housing) modules of the pack could be accommodated. That might be okay... but it's worth laying them out on that drawing (or one scaled to the actual 11B dimensions) to see how may might go in. Maybe 5 would fit?

For anyone using the handy dimensioned drawing... I believe that the 11BL would be the "11 normale" in the table on the drawing.


----------



## KiwiPete (Aug 2, 2019)

I hadn't considered the flipped layout. I'll do some thinking on that. 

regarding the drawing - the 11BL is actually the 11 Legere model. The first one in the list - so even smaller than the normale. 

Update: I've edited the drawing to remove the dimensions for the other models.

Now that I've taken delivery of the car, I'll start measuring and laying out to scale.


----------



## KiwiPete (Aug 2, 2019)

brian_ said:


> A practical layout may be to place the motor longitudinally ahead of the axle line (so in the location of the transmission portion of the stock transaxle), driving a final drive unit (ring-and-pinion gears and differential) in the stock location of those components. For this to work, a high ring and pinion ratio or motor suited to low speed would be needed. If someone looks under the front, the motor would look about like the transmission did.


I like this a lot. I've been researching direct drive solutions (by this I mean attaching the motor directly to the final drive/diff. 

I need to find a suitably high ratio diff.


----------



## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

KiwiPete said:


> regarding the drawing - the 11BL is actually the 11 Legere model. The first one in the list - so even smaller than the normale.
> 
> Update: I've edited the drawing to remove the dimensions for the other models


Oops... sorry. I realized that the 11BL was the légère, but picked the wrong column, skipping over the first one because it was headed as the "7", not reading the rest of the headings. Duh...


----------



## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

KiwiPete said:


> I like this a lot. I've been researching direct drive solutions (by this I mean attaching the motor directly to the final drive/diff.
> 
> I need to find a suitably high ratio diff.


Just a thought - not checked out in detail or supported by any precedent - but there are quick-change IRS rear ends in which the input shaft runs under the axle line to a pair of spur gears on the back side. That makes the front of the housing short (so the motor could couple closely to it), and means that the final drive has two stages of reduction (the spur gear set which available in a choice of ratios, and the ring and pinion). This is an old design mostly used in oval-track racing and street rods, with long-time manufacturers such as Frankland, Halibrand, Speedway Engineering, and Winters.


----------



## KiwiPete (Aug 2, 2019)

brian_ said:


> Just a thought - not checked out in detail or supported by any precedent - but there are quick-change IRS rear ends in which the input shaft runs under the axle line to a pair of spur gears on the back side. That makes the front of the housing short (so the motor could couple closely to it), and means that the final drive has two stages of reduction (the spur gear set which available in a choice of ratios, and the ring and pinion). This is an old design mostly used in oval-track racing and street rods, with long-time manufacturers such as Frankland, Halibrand, Speedway Engineering, and Winters.


Interesting. That might also give me enough room to run inboard disc brakes -- to compensate for the single leading shoe drums currently on it.


----------



## ndg (Apr 10, 2018)

I'm not sure how expensive they would be, but you could run two axial flux low speed motors direct drive - one to each wheel and utilise the two inverters as an electronic diff with torque control rather that speed control. An example motor would be the YASA400 series, but there may be cheaper options out there.


----------



## rob_kr (Apr 8, 2016)

One option, given the shape & size of things, would be to mount the motor vertically over where the differential is. It leaves the most space for other parts & pieces in the engine bay, and with the greatly reduced need for cooling it should be OK to effectively block most of the grill.

Just a suggestion...

RK


----------



## rowen01960 (Jun 17, 2018)

Here is a link to a Swiss post of a UK TOC club member that is working on an electric TA ... another approach ....


----------



## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

rowen01960 said:


> Here is a link to a Swiss post of a UK TOC club member that is working on an electric TA ... another approach ....


There's no link in the post.


----------



## rowen01960 (Jun 17, 2018)

Duhhh ... https://www.tractionavant.ch/Berichte/Technik/Elektrische/Traction.php


----------



## KiwiPete (Aug 2, 2019)

rowen01960 said:


> Duhhh ... https://www.tractionavant.ch/Berichte/Technik/Elektrische/Traction.php


Thanks for the ideas guys.

Rowan. I've been researching electric TAs for a bit to see if anyone else has done it - mainly so I can learn from them. I've found a couple references to this one previously but they're all second hand references and they all say "the south of England" Here's an example from a TA site in Australia.

http://www.aussiefrogs.com/forum/citro%EBn-forum/109870-electric-traction.html

Do you know any of the people who actually built this?

Here are a couple of youtube vids that went up:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RFKNWFgBx5A

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1EBW-Vr6juk


These videos are dated 2013-2015, so its been done a while.


Interestingly it looks like they kept the original gearbox and mated the electric motor up to it. Common practice on a classic DIY conversion - but I was under the impression that the original box was weak. I'd be interested in talking to the builder for his feedback if you know them.


Thanks.
Peter.


----------



## rowen01960 (Jun 17, 2018)

Pete, if you go to the Club website, and pay 100€/£ to join ... you should be able to contact Mick Popka. 

Sorry, but I am of a bit of a recluse ... not much contact with people recently, you are the “unfortunate” individual that happens to appreciate good technology ... regardless of where or when it was created ... 

As for gearbox durability ... one should consider the original engine torque limits and knock them down (-20%) for normal fatigue acculation. If there appears to be abuse, one should look at NDT to get a good knockdown factor .... otherwise consider a DD direct drive wheel motor ... China is delivering 10-12 kW Hub motors ... 4WD TA.  

If you decide to go with the latter .. pls stay in touch as I require a 4WD control system for my current design ...a 6x6 Drive is also in the near term ...


----------



## KiwiPete (Aug 2, 2019)

Thanks Rowan. I joined TOC a while back. I’ll try and connect with Mike there. 

Regarding wheel hub motors. I’m reluctant to swap out the wheel/drum combos I currently have. I want that portion to look factory. I wonder though if I can mount two of them inboard and drive the existing driveshafts with them. 


Do you have a link to the Chinese units you were referring to?


----------



## MichaelJLH (Feb 24, 2020)

Hi Pete, I have also been lurking for a while, and am working on a Light 15 11BL electric conversion. My car has some way to go before I can start on the drive train, but I've been thinking about it for a while.
I have been considering using a Hilux front diff in place of the gearbox, with the motor mounted behind it (should be just enough space). With a 5.7:1 after market gear set I think it might work.


----------



## rowen01960 (Jun 17, 2018)

Pete ... this is the new QS 12-14kW DD

http://www.cnqsmotor.com/en/article...Cooled Electric Motorcycle Hub Motor/538.html

My interest is in justifying the listed mass (43-53kg) it should not require full steel Rotor Cases or Stator ... and more importantly one could replicate the Drum Brake geometry ... in GF/EP (FR4) given the active material for ~15-20kW/motor

If you wish to have inboard motor(s). A shafted rotor version would be required ... opposite of what interests me ... . QS has several on offer.

I will sketch a Low Mass Motor-in-Drum concept tonight .... posting tomorrow or Wednesday. I am currently attempting to “stuff” 250kW into a 20x10 Bead Lock Design ...

Robert


----------



## KiwiPete (Aug 2, 2019)

MichaelJLH said:


> Hi Pete, I have also been lurking for a while, and am working on a Light 15 11BL electric conversion. My car has some way to go before I can start on the drive train, but I've been thinking about it for a while.
> I have been considering using a Hilux front diff in place of the gearbox, with the motor mounted behind it (should be just enough space). With a 5.7:1 after market gear set I think it might work.


"My car has some way to go before I can start on the drive train".... Hah. I'm assuming that's code for "I have a lot of rust to repair"?

Light 15 and Hilux nomenclature. Are you based in NZ/Aus?

Pete


----------



## KiwiPete (Aug 2, 2019)

rowen01960 said:


> Pete ... this is the new QS 12-14kW DD
> 
> http://www.cnqsmotor.com/en/article...Cooled Electric Motorcycle Hub Motor/538.html
> 
> ...


Thanks Rowan,
I think I'm going to stick with OEM/salvage parts, where possible. I don't know enough about the in-wheel type to risk that kind of money.


----------



## rowen01960 (Jun 17, 2018)

No worries Pete ... for me this is just a technical study to visualize and simulate what works and what is “flakey/Lame” from a design perspective.... 

It is looking like a “Pilote” style wheel with integrated double rotor axial/radial hybrid motor will get one to 25kW, using CF/GF reinforcement for Wheel, Motor Casings, Stator Structure and Wheel Hub, Stub Axle.

A Hollow Faux Drive Shaft should suffice to house Cooling Tubes, Power Cables, Control/Indicating wiring. Currently “booking” mass per corner at ~40kg with a “Standard” 165/80R16 or 175/75R16 Tire .... I expect my initial thicknesses/mass to reduce with FEA simulations ....

Oh yes, all composite parts are “printed” ... so 15 min print and 2.5h post cure for a 15-20 micron surface finish. 

I hope to have the FSUS GA Drawings ready for Monday next, but may post some “pretty” coloured images before then


----------



## MichaelJLH (Feb 24, 2020)

Hi Pete,
Yes - I'm in Sydney, and my car is at the rust removing stage - though maybe slightly less rusty than yours by the sound of it.


I think our cars are very similar, mine is a French built car, not an English one so actually a TA not a Light 15.


I'm excited that someone else is tackling the same problem, looking forward to hearing how your project goes, and hope I can be of some assistance to you too. My background is in product design, with a little bit of mechanical engineering thrown in. No ability in electronics at all (yet?!)



Over the years I have considered various solutions to the drive train:


1. Motor in front of the diff, using a ford 9 inch diff. I don't think there is enough length, as the drive shaft center line to the front of the 'box is only 350mm. Unless you use an axial flux motor.


2. Use two axial flux motors inboard in place of the diff - way out of my budget!


3. Replace the gearbox with one from a more modern car with the same layout - Renault 4, first generation Renault 5, Citroen ID, Citroen 2CV, Citroen GS. Gives a choice of ratios, but for me hard to find a gearbox in Aus.


4. Use a VW Beetle gearbox - won't fit in the front 'cradle'.


5. Use a Transworks Mini Diff - gives the option of inboard disc brakes too. I couldn't decide if these were reliable, and would have to import one, but otherwise potentially good.
http://www.transworks.biz/minidiff.html


6. Use a Toyota 4 Runner / Hilux IFS diff with aftermarket gears.


Motor wise I'm currently thinking a Leaf motor, but have considered fork-lift DC motors and the Hyper 9. I'm keen to have regenerative braking as I don't trust the front disc brakes on a 70 year old car.


By the way, I think you have more space behind the drive shaft center line than you think - about 800mm by my calculation (732 +~ 75 for the cradle)


I've attached an excel spreadsheet I did to look at the torque and power required for acceleration, cruising and hill climbing with various gear ratios. I'm not sure that the maths is correct - I'm hoping someone smarter than me can double check it! Blue highlighted cells are vehicle specific, green are variables for speed and acceleration time.


Michael


----------



## rowen01960 (Jun 17, 2018)

Hello Michael, your spreadsheet is very useful to get one thinking critically! 

IMHO the Tire Friction Coefficient should read Rolling Resistance Coefficient (0.015 is an ice covered surface :+)

The Drag Coefficient is somewhat optimistic, given Frontal and Drag Areas of 2.11 and 1.37m2 ... perhaps 0.65?

The OE weight of 1080 kg for Driver only is not likely to be maintained with significant alterations. A Mass Estimation and Distribution Spreadsheet will help in estimating GVW and corner loads. The attached files are for a Mass Compounding calculator that Daimler/Chrysler presented a few years back. The distribution is pretty reasonable for a “Metallic” ICE vehicle. I however work with composites and EV ... I need to modify and extend the spreadsheet with my recently acquired Leaf Drive and System weights/locations. 

Hope these attachments provide some sanity checks for the various options out there ... 

Robert


----------



## rowen01960 (Jun 17, 2018)

A presentation on 2010 “group think” for mass reduction potential for MY 2017-2020 vehicles ... it puts some numbers to uncertainty when considering converting ICE to EV vehicles ... similar levels of inertial resistance appear to be found in both eMachines and Storage (Batteries), with the exception of current Hybrid UHCAP and Li-Ion offerings .... oh well ... ba k to my Airless Treaded Wheel Motors ....

https://www.dropbox.com/s/wkpt63am2tw9vwy/Mass_reduction_final_2010.pdf?dl=0


----------



## MichaelJLH (Feb 24, 2020)

Hi Robert,
Thanks for your feedback and the other documents. I think they are probably for when my project is a bit further down the track.
I'm interested in where you found the frontal area and drag area figures. I used a Cd worked out from the power consumption comparison diagram and the Cd's for the DS and GSA in this article:
http://www.citroenet.org.uk/miscellaneous/aero/aero01.html
And used the dimensions on the Wikipedia page for the frontal area:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Citroën_Traction_Avant
using the smallest figures which I assume relate to the 11BL.
Michael


----------



## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

MichaelJLH said:


> ... used the dimensions on the Wikipedia page for the frontal area:
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Citroën_Traction_Avant
> using the smallest figures which I assume relate to the 11BL.


The frontal area will be less than the product of width and height, because the bar is not a rectangular box, and there is clearance underneath... but that's a decent approximation to the maximum possible value.


----------



## rowen01960 (Jun 17, 2018)

Michael, Brian ...

I picked up the cD and Plate Areas from: 

https://www.automobile-catalog.com/auta_details1.php

I can define the “actual” 3D Drag at vMax using Fluent (given a reasonable 3D math model) . But Brian is correct for a reasonable Flat Plate cD jusr scale front vu image and trace the profile to obtain area.

Additionally in 3D CFD the flow is low and therefore not very accurate (+/-20%) nor is it of high value given the mass variance ... apparently the posted marketing/technical weights are dry weights ... so one should add 75-80kg per person + 50kg for cargo ... no? 

Robert.


----------



## KiwiPete (Aug 2, 2019)

Michael,
I'm also glad someone else is doing this. I feel like there's a lot to learn from anyone who goes first on this one.
Looking at your transmission ideas, I see we’ve got some common ground. I’d been considering a Jag rear end on the off chance I could also get the inboard brakes with it. Now that I’m looking at the width of the opening in the cradle I see that it’s not going to fit.

I really like the mini-diff you linked – but I feel that if I’m going to spend that kind of money then I want at least two gears. Your speed spreadsheet is much further along than mine – so I’ll review and see. Maybe I can get away with direct drive.

You were right on the available room too. I checked under the TA this morning. I’ve got right on 800mm from the firewall to the centerline of the drive shafts.


----------



## rowen01960 (Jun 17, 2018)

Michael, Pete, attached is a spreadsheet calculator for Corner weights and Spring Frequencies that I plugged RHD BL11 measured corner weights into. Citroen advises a max 30kg lateral variance, no info on Longitudinal I assume that it is for a dry unladen vehicle. 

The 4cyl engine/gearbox is ~ 250kg removal weight ... 

Changing the Drive Train weight/location and adding Battery weight should be considered carefully in order to have properly functioning Suspension/Steering/Braking systems. 

The spreadsheet is not mine, but has been useful when connected to a full vehicle Mass Distribution table


----------



## MichaelJLH (Feb 24, 2020)

Hi Pete,
I've updated the spreadsheet with the drag coefficient and frontal area from Robert, and also changed the gear ratios - I had VW Beetle trans axle ratios in there before, so I've changed them to TA 11BL ratios. No 4th or 5th gear anymore!

Interestingly the changes to the drag coefficient and frontal areas only make a 3% difference to the torque requirements, so at least I wasn't too far out.
I'll look forward to hearing your thoughts on the pros and cons of direct drive.

Michael


----------



## KiwiPete (Aug 2, 2019)

Really interesting. on the spreadsheet numbers.

I'm more an electronics/software guy - so the applied maths on this is taking me a minute to get my head around. I'll keep at it.

Have you measured a Hilux IFS diff? I see that we've got about 8 1/2" of width "flange to flange" on the existing gearbox. I haven't been able to find a measured drawing of the toyota diff but I'm the pictures I see make it seem bigger than that....


----------



## Tremelune (Dec 8, 2009)

KiwiPete said:


> I’m a software developer working with embedded systems.


...Well hello there! Perhaps I could solicit your opinion on a question I asked on another forum about CAN programming:

https://arstechnica.com/civis/viewtopic.php?f=20&t=1465003


120-150 miles smells like 400-600lb of battery, depending on the batteries...Maybe 40kW? I'm wingin' these numbers. Range at 60mph will be significantly larger than range at 80mph.

Can you go into greater detail about what's preventing you from just using a Leaf/Tesla motor to directly drive the wheels? You would need custom axles to adapt the CVs to the funky U-joints, but that seems easier than messing with an ancient diff. Top speed would clear 80mph, and there would be, well, _plenty_ of torque. I'm putting a Leaf motor in a Mini and that has quite a tight track width...

Very cool project.


----------



## rowen01960 (Jun 17, 2018)

Okay , it appears that the Wheel-Motor drive concept will work on either narrow or wide track platforms. The Leaf drive system is best applied to the wide track TA (1520mm) The 2910 wheelbase should provide 250L for a custom structural Battery Case. Initial Hull FSUS/RSUS weights will be derived next week, after the booked material thicknesses show +margin at acceptable Bending/Torsion.


----------



## KiwiPete (Aug 2, 2019)

Tremelune said:


> ...Well hello there! Perhaps I could solicit your opinion on a question I asked on another forum about CAN programming:
> 
> https://arstechnica.com/civis/viewtopic.php?f=20&t=1465003


I've been thinking about something similar. My approach would be to separate the hardware and software components. I feel like most of the mature/evolved solutions will expect you to code in C and then download the code to the board.

Edit: I assume you've seen this? https://plugins.jetbrains.com/plugin/11301-arduino-support

I've done some initial playing around with an Arduino Mega and a CAN board. I plugged it into my (non classic) Mini and was able to communicate and log quite happily. I've read that the lower spec Arduinos (Mega included) are not really up to the task of running multiple CAN bus connections though. I've see a lot of development using the Arduino Due board. 

This http://store.evtv.me/proddetail.php?prod=EVTVDue2 product seems to be one that a lot of DIYers use. I'll probably end up getting one to play with myself.

This https://github.com/collin80/SavvyCAN seems to be the popular software for logging and parsing messages.


Let me know if you want to discuss further. I've been following your mini build and we'll have to solve a lot of similar problems. I'm (probably) going to use mostly leaf components on mine.


Regarding dropping in a complete Leaf PDU. I was originally hoping to - until I saw how narrow the Citroen is up front. The first photo (not my car) shows the general arrangement of the front end. There's a "Cradle" that bolts to the unibody/hull that carries the suspension components. The driveshafts pass through it - so the transaxle needs to be narrower at that point. The second photo shows that I've got about 8 1/2" flange to flange on the existing unit. Thats about 1/3 of the space occupied by the PDU.

Even though the Citroen is FWD, its set up with a longitudinal motor and transaxle. I'm going to have to come up with something similar - unless I follow Rowans idea and go with hub motors.

Pete


----------



## KiwiPete (Aug 2, 2019)

rowen01960 said:


> Okay , it appears that the Wheel-Motor drive concept will work on either narrow or wide track platforms.......



Interesting progress Rowan. I'm still leaning towards OEM/longitudinal drive, but its interesting following along.

I now it's probably not your primary focus - but I'm curious about how you think the existing hull/suspension will handle the 400-600lbs of batteries?

My initial idea was similar to yours regarding putting them in the floor. I've got the ground clearance to be able to double skin the floor and I assume I can tie the structure into the body well enough. I still need to look at the volume available but that's where I'd like to go. Do you have any opinion on whether the existing torsion bar suspension will handle the extra load?


----------



## MichaelJLH (Feb 24, 2020)

I haven't measured a Toyota IFS diff, but judging by the information here, it should just about fit:


http://www.metricmind.com/audi/main.htm



I'm estimating its nearer 250mm / 10" flange to flange, which should still fit in the cradle.


Robert - great information in your weight distribution spreadsheet - thank you! You obviously have a lot of detailed knowledge about the TA. Your CAD model of the car looks very interesting too!



Tremelune - the problem with the TA front end is that the engine compartment is long but narrow, and the suspension hangs off the front cradle, so there really isn't much space to work with. I've attached a couple of images. 



Weight wise I have:


Leaf motor: 58 Kg
Differential: 40 Kg
Leaf Inverter: 17 Kg
24KwHr Leaf battery pack modules: 182.5 Kg
Total: 297.5 Kg


So maybe 50 Kg more than the engine/gearbox before adding battery boxes DC DC converter, etc. etc., but also before taking account of other components which are going (you wouldn't believe how heavy the exhaust pipe is!)



Range is another question altogether - I'm thinking around a 130km /80 mile range from a 42Kwhr pack, at 80kph/ 50 mph



Michael


----------



## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

KiwiPete said:


> Regarding dropping in a complete Leaf PDU. I was originally hoping to - until I saw how narrow the Citroen is up front.
> ...
> 
> Even though the Citroen is FWD, its set up with a longitudinal motor and transaxle.


While the combination of longitudinal engine and front wheel drive was quite common, and is still used by Audi (and sort of by Subaru), no EV is designed that way (because it would make little sense), so the narrow space does kill the idea of using a complete drive unit (motor and transaxle) salvaged from any production EV.


----------



## rowen01960 (Jun 17, 2018)

Brian, given my investigations over the last couple of weeks, I agree with you on the 11BL, however the other 11 types have wider spaced mounting rods (285 vs the 11BL at 225 from the CL). This is the same width as the 15-6 (6 cyl) version, however the travese is also wider (longitudinally) on the 15-6. 

Given the 200-300 kg hull mass, it made sense to me to replace the entire ancient metal and modify the truss geometry INBD of the Bonnet Panels ... same 10’ visual rule that Pete was aiming for... 

The issue with a hull replacement is that each hull has significant mfg variances and one does not realize how much distortion has occurred in the years of service and repairs. It makes interchangeability between old and new closures almost impossible ...

Perhaps a simple mod to the 2 Jambonneau, while watching the turning clearance would suffice ... the 4 Fixing Rods are D29 ... 

Robert


----------



## rowen01960 (Jun 17, 2018)

Michael, nice photos .... but you are not going to electrify that big 15 are you? 

As for being a Tractionista ... uh no ... I have just spent the last few weeks relearning my Canadian High School French and going through 22 (mostly French) TA Parts and Repair Manuals .... so most things are still fresh in my mind ... 

Glad to see the Weight Distribution Calculator is being used ... the sample 11BL weights was for a wet vehicle without Driver! Apparently Body, Mechanical repairs over the years can contribute significantly to imbalance. 

As I understand things (from a Tractionista) OEM parts are scarce and getting very expensive. The spares are almost always in a state that requires a raw stock machining be performed. Fiberglass Wings were available in the UK but, I fear as with any “Fiberglass” Body parts today, uncontrolled thickness/FV fraction and the use of unstable polyester resins (low Tg) resulted in nonconforming warped mouldings .... 

I have a higher fidelity Nissan Leaf Teardown spreadsheet for Mass and location ... I will forward to over the weekend ..

Regards, 

r/


----------



## rowen01960 (Jun 17, 2018)

KiwiPete said:


> Interesting progress Rowan. I'm still leaning towards OEM/longitudinal drive, but its interesting following along.
> 
> I now it's probably not your primary focus - but I'm curious about how you think the existing hull/suspension will handle the 400-600lbs of batteries?
> 
> My initial idea was similar to yours regarding putting them in the floor. I've got the ground clearance to be able to double skin the floor and I assume I can tie the structure into the body well enough. I still need to look at the volume available but that's where I'd like to go. Do you have any opinion on whether the existing torsion bar suspension will handle the extra load?


Pete, the corner weight calculator and the screen shot of a restored 51 11BL should help in understanding issues. The physical drive train solution and where you can locate the batteries will be dependent upon the resultant corner weights for each solution/location. 


A reasonable Mass Distribution/GG booking for weights and location will expedite this effort.

The Spreadsheet I uploaded earlier is for backing out the CG and Bias given the measurement of the corners. Primarily to adjust for Torsion Bar weakening or unknown deformation (Citroen max lh to rh variance is 30kg, fwd to aft variance should be no more than 10% to be safe)

It would be good to get a Baseline of the corner weights before modification starts ... but as long as all OEM parts are close to their installed locations, you should be good.

This baseline will allow you to confirm any “built-nonconformities”

Next, start a spreadsheet listing all Citroen items to be removed. Add 4 columns for the total weight of each part and the XYZ distance from the CL of the Upper LH “Cradle to Hull” Attach Rod. For BL this is 225mm from the vehicle CL PLN and 198mm above the Lower LH “ Cradle to Hull” Attach Rod”. With the weights and coordinates you can now determine the required Lateral, Longitudinal and Vertical CG and moments for the new “electrification” system.

I would now extend your spread sheet with 4 new columns representing the items you will put into the vehicle.... you can move the individual item Spreadsheet Locations to equivalence with the OE wet unladen Baseline CG (sorry you need to add the fuel mass and location into the Baseline Item List) 

You will spend a lot of time with this spreadsheet in order to have the OEM suspension perform adequately. 

In general the removal of the OEM Cooling, Heating, Engine/Gearbox, Exhaust, Fuel System should remove ~ 325kg from the vehicle (note this is an estimate from the Parts / Repair Manuals and there needs to be confirmed) 

Now a composite Hull would pull 150kg out, along with 10kg/closure/door/deck. But then one could easily drop a Leaf Drive Train i to the Wider Track Hull ... I diverge ... old age ... 

New Torsion Bars Front and Rear will handle electrification provided equivalent mass and CG are maintained with the OEM. There are a lot of old parts that NEED to be inspected on the Cradle/FSUS/RSUS.


----------



## KiwiPete (Aug 2, 2019)

rowen01960 said:


> Pete, the corner weight calculator and the screen shot of a restored 51 11BL should help in understanding issues. The physical drive train solution and where you can locate the batteries will be dependent upon the resultant corner weights for each solution/location.
> 
> .......
> 
> New Torsion Bars Front and Rear will handle electrification provided equivalent mass and CG are maintained with the OEM. There are a lot of old parts that NEED to be inspected on the Cradle/FSUS/RSUS.


Thanks Robert. (Apologies for calling you Rowan earlier).
I'm currently wiring up a set of DIY corner scales. I'm waiting until a buddy finishes machining the cases for them and then I'll start weighing. I'm planning on tracking weight and bias for everything that comes off and then goes back on.

I've found (European) suppliers for repro panels so anything that's been rusting will get replaced. I had budgeted ~2K in replacement panels, but hadn't considered having to replace the torsion bars. I'll look into that.

I may have to cut back on my range aspirations in order to not push the weight up too far. I guess the alternative is to slide a chassis/frame underneath it (still keeping the FWD) but I'd like to avoid that.


----------



## rowen01960 (Jun 17, 2018)

No worries with Rowan ...  Rowen01960 is Robert Owen and the local (Peabody MA) when I created the account ... 

As with all Structural/Mechanical parts on old vehicles, one needs to consider the regions in which it operated over its life, and the maintenance/accident record if any. 

On condition inspection for corrosion is the obvious one, less so is metal fatigue, poor repairs and subsequent overstressing.

The welded monocoque (Hull and body) used 0.9 to ~ 4mm thick sheet, so basically modern vehicle gauges ... without any serious corrosion protection. 

Mechanically, pretty much all rotating/bearing surfaces will have worn and likely need attention as the greasing points were numerous and likely a forgotten maintenance item.

The Torsion Bars/Rods are purely a fatigue issue ... average usage have seen replacement at 100k miles ... however with dry operating environments and moderate abuse they may still be useful (with risk).

There are a few good FSUS/Steering and RSUS rebuilds documented on the web .. lots of pics .... mostly French, some German and English text ...

Just started the CV11,15 “Wide Body” study, with a variation for a GEN1/2/3? “drop-in” using a custom Cradle/Subframe mating the OEM arms with INBD modified shafts. 

I will upload a WIP GA Sketch (it uses an underwhelmingly accurate Leaf Drive Train image set).

It looks like I will have to invest some time in CAD Models of the Leaf Drive Trains, PDM, Invertor, AC Pump, Condensor, Radiator, less Drive Shafts ..

Still trying to keep or tighten your “10 foot rule”


----------



## rowen01960 (Jun 17, 2018)

Clearances .... hmmmm ... but it is looking good for a “Cradle Mod Only” to install the Leaf Motor/Reducer ...

https://www.dropbox.com/s/l6qhnfoiw54mada/CTA-WB2910 c0.pdf?dl=0


----------



## Tremelune (Dec 8, 2009)

Great info on that CAN stuff! I'm hitting pause on that for a while, as it's time for me to fab up some motor mounts, but I'm sure I'll be back at it in a few.

Out of curiosity, how did you build your corner-weight scales? I've been waiting for a Longacre to come up for sale at a reasonable price, and they just...don't.


----------



## KiwiPete (Aug 2, 2019)

Tremelune said:


> Great info on that CAN stuff! I'm hitting pause on that for a while, as it's time for me to fab up some motor mounts, but I'm sure I'll be back at it in a few.
> 
> Out of curiosity, how did you build your corner-weight scales? I've been waiting for a Longacre to come up for sale at a reasonable price, and they just...don't.


Cool. Let me know when you get back onto it. I don't have any leaf hardware yet - but I'm planning on getting the CanDue board - and you're only about an hour away to test 

Re the scales. I'm using cheap 50kg load cells. 12 per corner. I've built a pcb to aggregate them all together with an arduino to manage things. If it works then I'll do a write up.


----------



## KiwiPete (Aug 2, 2019)

Slowing inching towards ..... starting?
I had decided I would complete the corner scales before starting to strip the Citroen. Probably not necessary but I wanted to get an initial weight and bias/distribution. I found a few online howtos that used 4*50kg load cells – so total 200kg. I tripled the circuit to give me a corner capacity of 600kg/1320lbs. Initial results are promising. The car came in at 2321lbs – right in the ballpark of what the internet says it weighs. When I sat my 210lb ass in it (allowing for clothes and steel capped boots) it came up to 2497lbs. Around ~30lbs/15% out at the top end. I need to recalibrate the scales but I’m happy enough with the initial reads.

Teardown has begun!


----------



## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

Tremelune said:


> Great info on that CAN stuff! I'm hitting pause on that for a while, as it's time for me to fab up some motor mounts, but I'm sure I'll be back at it in a few.
> 
> Out of curiosity, how did you build your corner-weight scales? I've been waiting for a Longacre to come up for sale at a reasonable price, and they just...don't.


Hi - I made a simple corner weight tester using some square tube and a fisherman's scale

https://www.diyelectriccar.com/foru...dubious-device-44370p15.html?highlight=duncan


----------



## RossB (Dec 22, 2020)

KiwiPete said:


> I’ve been lurking on here for a while. I’ve been wanting to do an EV conversion and its taken a while to find a car that I felt I would want to drive once the conversion is complete. I’ll admit from the go that, while its nice to be environmentally friendly, I feel that the finished product will have to be something that I want to drive. Some style, a bit of power and a certain “cool” factor (at least in my own head).
> This car does it for me.
> 
> Skill level with auto mechanics/fabrication: I’ve restored/rebuilt a couple of cars as a teenager/early 20s. Some Minis and a Land Rover. I have minimal fabrication experience, but that’s going to improve significantly with the rust I’ll need to remediate in this.
> ...


----------



## RossB (Dec 22, 2020)

Pete, I am restoring a 1939 Traction in Los Angeles and could share some advice, parts sources, special tools etc. The only electric conversion I contemplate is from 6 volt to 12 volt. All else is stock. My car at present is totally apart. Please contact me if interested. Ross


----------



## KiwiPete (Aug 2, 2019)

Progress has been slow. Most of the last 9 months has been spent reorganizing the garage and slowly stripping the Citroen. This weekend the motor/trans got pulled - finally starting to see what I have to work with in the way of space.


----------



## kiwi.colin (Jan 2, 2021)

KiwiPete said:


> Progress has been slow. Most of the last 9 months has been spent reorganizing the garage and slowly stripping the Citroen. This weekend the motor/trans got pulled - finally starting to see what I have to work with in the way of space.
> 
> View attachment 121217
> View attachment 121218
> ...


----------

