# home made 1500 amp controller??



## OMT (May 10, 2010)

sorry if this has been said already, but i know its possible to build yourself a 144v 500amp controller. but would it be possible to build yourself something like 1500A 230v dc controller? i know it sounds crazy but are the parts available to get?

thanks


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## JRoque (Mar 9, 2010)

Hi. I'll say 'yes' if you promise not to ask 'how'. There are commercial controllers that can do that and more so the technology is available. But at that current level, component/circuit layout becomes a serious concern, not to mention heat removal and power I/O handling. A current loop that could be "lived with" at 500A, it might be a showstopper at 1500A, for example.

Hopefully you're also looking at the cells that will supply that amount of current - not easily done - and the motor rating to handle it on the other end. 

What kind of rocket and/or welder are you building?

JR


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## Anaerin (Feb 4, 2009)

It's quite possible. If you get the plans and make yourself an "Open ReVolt" controller you can customise the power stage to be as big (or as small) as you like, including teaming masses of high-voltage IGBTs to make the controller as insane as you'd like.

Of course, storing and accessing that much power would be another thing entirely...


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## OMT (May 10, 2010)

ok, so its pretty much the same, but beefier" parts that supply power...ect

i i ever build it it would be liquid cooled or sure


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## OMT (May 10, 2010)

so ill be studying the forum on how to build a controller, and i should be starting to build this thing in a few weeks


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## Georgia Tech (Dec 5, 2008)

Paul is building an open source 1000 amp controller....I would support that effert and learn first if this is your first time doing something like this...


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## Sunking (Aug 10, 2009)

OMT you got one little hurdle to get over. What size electrical service do you have at the site with this monster? A typical single phase 240/120 200 amp residential service is not going to cut it. You would need a 3 phase 208/120 300 amp service using a 3 phase rectifier to pull it off providing everything else is off in the home. If that were not enough headaches all your 240 appliances would have to have their taps changed to 208, or replaced if they cannot operate at 208. Other way is a 3 phase 480/277 service then install a single phase transformer for your 240/120 stuff in the home. 

Just a little headache.


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## MPaulHolmes (Feb 23, 2008)

I'd talk to jackbauer on here. He has driven some very high power igbts with the basic open revolt control board, and it's made to drive mosfets. To do it right you would probably want a driver board that is actually made for igbts. I think the regular old pwm signal could drive an HCPL-4506 optocoupler, which could drive multiple drivers. For each giant igbt, I would give each driver its own isolated supply too, and drive it with like -8v off and 15v on or so. adamj12b made a driver board for this. he's got a really high power controller in the works.


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## Chucky (Sep 23, 2010)

No problem ->
http://www.altmann.haan.de/P4/

Chucky


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## OMT (May 10, 2010)

thanks for the help guys, im in sschool right now, and am pretty busy with other things, but when i get some time ill finalize what i want out of the controller, and talk to people that have built them before. ill need asmuch help as i can, as i am not experienced in making circuits.


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## 9852 (Jan 17, 2010)

I started building the open revolt controller, and at the same time while waiting for the parts I did this one with IGBTs, i tested it today on a small motor but tomorrow will be the better test with a motor for my bike that is in the works.

http://billsevaccent.blogspot.com/s...-max=2011-01-01T00:00:00-08:00&max-results=50

im not finished with the open revolt controll board, Im still waiting for the current transducer and a couple of other components but I built a driver circuit to play with it today.this controller and the open revolt will both be water cooled, you can see the cooling plate in the pictures. ummm i mean test it today


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## jackbauer (Jan 12, 2008)

Have you got a freewheel diode setup?


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## 9852 (Jan 17, 2010)

jackbauer said:


> Have you got a freewheel diode setup?


yes it does have freewheel diodes, i got the idea from your posts on ecomodder, while reserching the open revolt controller.


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## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

billhac said:


> yes it does have freewheel diodes, i got the idea from your posts on ecomodder, while reserching the open revolt controller.


Well this isn't going to end well... Those IGBT modules only have two terminals on top, so they must be single IGBTs. For a motor controller you need modules with three terminals, either two IGBTs in series (half-bridge), or an IGBT and freewheeling diode in series (chopper). You can't use the anti-parallel diode across the IGBT in a single IGBT module as the freewheeling diode.


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## adamj12b (May 4, 2009)

I was going to post this earlier, but got sidetracked. Here it is.

quote=billhac;207667]yes it does have freewheel diodes, i got the idea from your posts on ecomodder, while reserching the open revolt controller.[/quote]


Im looking at the pictures and im trying to make out what IGBT's you used. All i can see for the part number is "MG500Q....". With some searching I found the MG500Q1US1. Is this the correct module? If it is, the parasitic diode that is across the switch will not perform the function you are looking for. You need a diode that is connected from M- to B+. The parasitic diode in the IGBT is connected from B- to B+.

I was also trying to figure out what capacitors you are using. I cannot see any info except for 200V.

-Adam


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## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

adamj12b said:


> ...the parasitic diode that is across the switch will not perform the function you are looking for...


Couple of things to clarify here, Adam. The anti-parallel diode across IGBTs is a totally separate device, not intrinsic to the structure as it is in MOSFETs. In both devices, though, the anti-parallel diode is eminently suited to being used as a freewheeling diode, it just needs to be in the proper location, is all 

Yeah, those capacitors look really shaky. And the high inductance pathway between them and the modules isn't good, either, but until the circuit gets sorted out it's still a bit premature to worry about "details" like these....


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## adamj12b (May 4, 2009)

Tesseract said:


> Couple of things to clarify here, Adam. The anti-parallel diode across IGBTs is a totally separate device, not intrinsic to the structure as it is in MOSFETs. In both devices, though, the anti-parallel diode is eminently suited to being used as a freewheeling diode, it just needs to be in the proper location, is all


Hi Jeffery,

I get it. My mistake. In the IGBT the diode is designed there, MOSFETS there left over from manufacturing process. Right?

-Adam


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## 9852 (Jan 17, 2010)

Tesseract said:


> Well this isn't going to end well... Those IGBT modules only have two terminals on top, so they must be single IGBTs. For a motor controller you need modules with three terminals, either two IGBTs in series (half-bridge), or an IGBT and freewheeling diode in series (chopper). You can't use the anti-parallel diode across the IGBT in a single IGBT module as the freewheeling diode.


i have semikron diodes coming for it.


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## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

adamj12b said:


> ...In the IGBT the diode is designed there, MOSFETS there left over from manufacturing process. Right?


Yep - the intrinsic diode in the MOSFET is formed when the base and emitter of the parasitic bipolar transistor are shorted together. Diodes formed in this way (ie - collector-base) are usually very slow, so doping is required to make them at least a nominally good match for the potential speed of a MOSFET, but they do alright most of the time.


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## 9852 (Jan 17, 2010)

Tesseract said:


> Couple of things to clarify here, Adam. The anti-parallel diode across IGBTs is a totally separate device, not intrinsic to the structure as it is in MOSFETs. In both devices, though, the anti-parallel diode is eminently suited to being used as a freewheeling diode, it just needs to be in the proper location, is all
> 
> Yeah, those capacitors look really shaky. And the high inductance pathway between them and the modules isn't good, either, but until the circuit gets sorted out it's still a bit premature to worry about "details" like these....


every thing looks shaky to you,the caps are the same ones for the open revolt, only 1000uf,i dont claim to be a pro it is just a hobby, why not say good first try, or something positive.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

I expect he's more interested in helping you avoid problems than giving you a pat on the back.


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## Qmavam (Aug 17, 2008)

billhac said:


> every thing looks shaky to you,the caps are the same ones for the open revolt, only 1000uf,i dont claim to be a pro it is just a hobby, why not say good first try, or something positive.


Rather than looking for a pat on the back, you might learn what it means when he says " the high inductance pathway between them and the modules isn't good" because if you don't learn, that error could be the destruction of any controller you every build.
MikeK


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## jackbauer (Jan 12, 2008)

My controller uses 2 rather old and slow single igbts. Fuji 1mbi800-u4l if memory serves. One is the switch. The other has its gate - emitter terminals tied together so the transistor stays off and is used as the diode (yes yes i know it could turn on given the right conditions but so far has not!). They are connected by a piece of copper busbar which is way less than ideal as this link will ring like a bell at high currents. Again so far so good.

I'm currently working on 2 new controllers but am using half bridge modules which simplifies layout and reduces the link inductance between the diode and the switch. Do be sure to get your capacitors as close as possible to the busbars. I achieved this with a crudely milled piece of pcb copper clad board.

Also watch out for gate drive problems. Old igbts have a lot of gate charge and this takes a big punch to turn on and off and get over the miller knee.

Other concerns of note are heatsinking and i have to say i like the watercooling. My heatsink is a piece of aluminium 250mm square 10mm thick with a big fan and it can't really cope with 500amp hill climbs for long before going into thermal limit at 75c.

Nice work overall. Keep us informed on progress.


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## CaptConan (Jul 12, 2010)

I've learned so much from reading this forum. It's nice to get a pat on the back for diving into something so ambitious like building your own motor controller from spare parts but tesseract is just trying to help. Hell it took me a couple weeks to realize what he was trying to say about switching time and switching frequency and that yeah it is important to understand the difference. Keep at it you'll get it. A pat on the back is nice but it's nicer to not have all your parts explode the first time you go turn it on...


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## 9852 (Jan 17, 2010)

Qmavam said:


> Rather than looking for a pat on the back, you might learn what it means when he says " the high inductance pathway between them and the modules isn't good" because if you don't learn, that error could be the destruction of any controller you every build.
> MikeK


all im saying is that it is a learning experience, and though im not an engineer I do have knowledge of electrical theory, i did say that it was not finished, I just wanted to see if it would work, the way I though, im not planning to put it on my car yet. Im not looking for a pat on the back either, but most times on this site you get more negativity then positivity, we come to this site to learn and talk about our experiences, not to be told how to do something, unless asking for help, I thought it was a cool project to do and wanted to share, but I wont make that mistake again.


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## JRoque (Mar 9, 2010)

> but most times on this site you get more negativity then positivity


I'll second that. We sometimes can be a bit on the rough end and I've gotten my share of it too. I think it's the makeup of who your audience is here. There's quite a few EEs and other luminaries on type A pills that know their stuff but can't really relate very well to other forms of carbon based life. You just have to develop a thicker skin and cut through the callousness to get to the good advise... and there's plenty of that in there. Programmers on this site have tried hard by providing us with "emoicons" for those of us incapable of expressing emotion in our writing. I don't need or ever use them 

Ok, now that I've expressed my feelings and channeled my Dr. Phil, back to being an arrogant IEEE member  



billhac said:


> all im saying is that it is a learning experience


Not really. When Tesseract said:


> Yeah, those capacitors look really shaky. And the high inductance pathway between them and the modules isn't good, either, but until the circuit gets sorted out it's still a bit premature to worry about "details" like these....


 You said 


billhac said:


> every thing looks shaky to you,


He said it was not something to worry about now and also Tesseract is right, that bit of inductance created by a loose layout might work at low power but it can get pretty large and kill your switches when you drive it harder. I think you're taking the right approach and starting to test slowly. Let us know how your testing is coming along.

JR


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

billhac said:


> we come to this site to learn and talk about our experiences, not to be told how to do something, unless asking for help, I thought it was a cool project to do and wanted to share, but I wont make that mistake again.


If you want to simply talk about your experiences and not be told a better way to do something then you should probably just blog with comments turned off. I always appreciate it when someone who knows more than I do tells me when I'm doing something wrong. I'm less concerned with the tone of their message than the accuracy.


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## jackbauer (Jan 12, 2008)

Here's a few pics of a controller i'm building:


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## JRoque (Mar 9, 2010)

Hey Jack, is that a solid al base? That thing seems massive. EDIT: Ok I see it's finned

Are you planning to fit more poly caps? Those switches will like it better if you put one on top of each even if that means moving the electrolytics off to the side a bit.

JR


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## jackbauer (Jan 12, 2008)

Yeh the poly caps will be going between the elecs. I'm waiting on them for a week now. Seems most suppliers are keeping minimum stock levels these days

The base is a heatsink I rescued from a plasma cutter.


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## jackbauer (Jan 12, 2008)

Few more pics of the casing , end caps and fan mounting.


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## SimonRafferty (Apr 13, 2009)

> but most times on this site you get more negativity then positivity


This made me smile! 

Although undoubtedly some replies come across as hostile, between the lines they tend to be useful. On the whole, compared to a certain British forum though - you're all quite gentle!

More than that, here there is a greater acceptance of experimentation than other forums. There are not many forums with so many genuine experts (as opposed to armchair experts) who are prepared to take the time to help.

Jack - your controller looks good! It looks bomb-proof, mechanically at least!

Si


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## JRoque (Mar 9, 2010)

Hey Jack, very nice case! How did you bend the sheets so nicely, a brake? Isn't that box a bit too tall to fit under the hood? I had to walk away from a commercial controller because the enclosure was too large. Are you hanging it upside down so the heat rises off the case and not onto the caps?

JR


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## jackbauer (Jan 12, 2008)

The case was made by a small metalwork company nearby. 15 euros cash! Yeh the box is a little big but i'm working with what i got. Not sure of the mounting just yet its for a friend.


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## jackbauer (Jan 12, 2008)

Few more pics of today's progress.


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## jackbauer (Jan 12, 2008)

Finished the build and bench testing today. Will test on the motorcycle tomorrow......with headways!!


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## jackbauer (Jan 12, 2008)

Complete and cased :


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## Jan (Oct 5, 2009)

Nice work, Jack. Are that the same kind of IGBT's I have?


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## jackbauer (Jan 12, 2008)

The igbts are Powerex CM400DU-12F.


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## Jan (Oct 5, 2009)

jackbauer said:


> The igbts are Powerex CM400DU-12F.


Yep. Pretty much the same. Yours have a RTC thing in it. Whatever that is. And they are a bit higher rated. Double.

Really nice job.


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## mrbigh (Dec 31, 2008)

jackbauer said:


> The igbts are Powerex CM400DU-12F.


Jack, could you please post a simplified diagram of the IGBT's out-put stage with additional cap values? I'm building a similar output for the SR controller. 
The external current sensor part #?
*Also, what is the results on the bike/controller/headways testing?*
Thanks....

PS:
I'm including some pictures of the controller's power stage build.


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