# [EVDL] Source for lithiums!



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Hi Joe, all,
> selling a 72V 100 Ahr pack for $6500 plus freight from 
> Salem, OR. The chargers with BMS included for each cell cost $500.
> 
About $1/whr (if you mean $500/72V). Does the BMS indicate when a cell 
is too discharged?

Page says they can be charged at 2C, which bodes well for discharge 
(which isn't given). Can you get him to supply that info?

What is he guaranteeing? 1000 cycles? 2000 cycles? 5 years? 7 years? 
nothing?

Cory Cross

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> On 21 Feb 2008 at 17:40, Cory Cross wrote:
> 
> > Hi Joe, all,
> > > selling a 72V 100 Ahr pack for $6500 plus freight from
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

BMS is one of those pesky TLAs. It stands for Battery Monitoring System.
=

damon> Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2008 17:49:38 -0800> From: [email protected]=
> To: [email protected]> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Source for lithiums!> > On 21 =


> Feb 2008 at 17:40, Cory Cross wrote:> > > Hi Joe, all,> > > selling a 72V 1=
> 00 Ahr pack for $6500 plus freight from > > > Salem, OR. The chargers with =
> BMS included> > What is "BMS" ?> > BTW, I have ordered both books you fello=
> ws recommended > from Amazon. Thanks.> > Ken Gordon W7EKB> > ______________=
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

$6500 plus freight for a 72V pack? At $6500 the charger and BMS
should be included in that price.

If it was a 348 volt pack and had enough energy in it for 200 mile
range and included BMS and was a performance type
battery(A123/Altairnano level), I'd still balk at the price.

$2000 for a 348 volt, 200 mile range, performance pack with BMS.

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Ryan Stotts wrote:
> > $6500 plus freight for a 72V pack? At $6500 the charger and BMS
> > should be included in that price.
> >
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> > $2000 for a 348 volt, 200 mile range, performance pack with BMS.
>
> Link?

Maybe in the future(or in a parallel world). 

In A123's case; I still wonder about:

1. The cost of materials
2. The cost to manufacture
3. The profit margin.

http://www.buya123systems.com/prdeki.html

I really wonder.

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Ryan Stotts wrote:
> 
> > $6500 plus freight for a 72V pack? At $6500 the charger and BMS
> > should be included in that price.
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Ryan Stotts wrote:
> > $2000 for a 348 volt, 200 mile range, performance pack with BMS.
> >
> 
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> joe wrote:
> > Does this sound like a good deal? It definitely has me excited!!! Go to his
> > website for more info www.electricwheelsinc.com and click on the "Batteries"
> > on the left side to get the specs. Sorry, I promised him that I wouldn't
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Cheap! Cheap! Cheap! Lithium batteries are our ticket to making EV's more
practical. 
Why spend $5k to build a useless 30 mile toys when you can spend an extra
$10-15k to build a practical commuter car capable of 100 mile range capable
of replacing the Suburban on most days. I understand that lithium is still
very expensive. It is more suitable for motorcycles and light cars at this
time because those vehicles require a smaller battery pack.

The Electric Wheels guys should be commended for offering a LiFePO4 solution
in the US market for less then $1/W-hr ($0.90/ W-hr). If Headway batteries
do not work out for me, these EW batteries would make a good alternative. 
Of all places, I would expect this forum to be excited about cheap Lithium
batteries available in the US.

Minh





> joe-22 wrote:
> >
> > Hello Listers,
> >
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Ryan Stotts wrote:
> >>> $2000 for a 348 volt, 200 mile range, performance pack with BMS.
> >> Link?
> >
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> minhd wrote:
> > Cheap! Cheap! Cheap! Lithium batteries are our ticket to making EV's more
> > practical.
> > Why spend $5k to build a useless 30 mile toys when you can spend an extra
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

The news is that these are NOT vaporware! I saw them with my own eyes, and 
he is selling them every day all over the US. In other words, they can be 
had NOW! That's why I was excited.

Joseph H. Strubhar

Web: www.gremcoinc.com

E-mail: [email protected]
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Alan Petrillo" <[email protected]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, February 21, 2008 10:44 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Source for lithiums!




> > minhd wrote:
> >> Cheap! Cheap! Cheap! Lithium batteries are our ticket to making EV's
> >> more
> >> practical.
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> joe wrote:
> > The news is that these are NOT vaporware! I saw them with my own eyes, and
> > he is selling them every day all over the US. In other words, they can be
> > had NOW! That's why I was excited.
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Ryan Stotts <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> >
> > $2000 for a 348 volt, 200 mile range, performance pack with BMS.
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Alan Petrillo wrote:
> > joe wrote:
> >> The news is that these are NOT vaporware! I saw them with my own eyes, and
> >> he is selling them every day all over the US. In other words, they can be
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

www.electricwheelsinc.com


Joseph H. Strubhar

Web: www.gremcoinc.com

E-mail: [email protected]
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Alan Petrillo" <[email protected]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, February 22, 2008 8:58 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Source for lithiums!




> > joe wrote:
> >> The news is that these are NOT vaporware! I saw them with my own eyes,
> >> and
> >> he is selling them every day all over the US. In other words, they can be
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> joe wrote:
> > www.electricwheelsinc.com
> >
> 
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Dan Frederiksen wrote:
> > joe wrote:
> >> www.electricwheelsinc.com
> >>
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

The batteries that Larry is selling are not from Huanyu.


Joseph H. Strubhar

Web: www.gremcoinc.com

E-mail: [email protected]
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Alan Petrillo" <[email protected]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Saturday, February 23, 2008 4:43 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Source for lithiums!




> > Dan Frederiksen wrote:
> >> joe wrote:
> >>> www.electricwheelsinc.com
> >>>
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Alan Petrillo wrote:
> > In their precautions they say to not immerse the battery in water or
> > seawater. Considering my first use for one of these puppies would be in
> > a boat, I just have to wonder what would happen if I were to get
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> joe wrote:
> > The batteries that Larry is selling are not from Huanyu.
> >
> >
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Alan Petrillo <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> > In their precautions they say to not immerse the battery in water or
> > seawater. Considering my first use for one of these puppies would be in
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

I think they are worried about discharge and corrosion of the terminals
eventually allowing seawater to creap in. If they were worried about
pressure the spec would contain a depth.

Because of all the ions in seawater, the conductivity can be halfway
between drinking water and copper!

Just for fun. What if we dropping a charged say 50AH cell in seawater
with 1/2 diameter terminals 2 inches apart.

5 mohs ie .2 rho. = R(ohms)*A(m^2)/L(meters) Conductivity of average
seawater.

CSA= pi r^2 3.1415926 * .00635^2 = .00012667
l = .0508

.2 = R (.00012667/.0508) >> R = ( )/.2 >> R = .125 ohms an 1/8 of an ohm!!!

.125 + .009(cell resistance) = .134 @ 3V(lets assume some sag!) 22.4 Amps

a 300V pack is .9 Ohms + (.0625/inch)*12 = 1.65 ohms = 182 Amps


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

It seems like we're playing a game of "pick the mystery battery supplier"
here.

-----Original Message-----
The batteries that Larry is selling are not from Huanyu.

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

they may also be concerned that lithium is a metal salt and very reactive with water...rapid oxidation.
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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> $2000 for a 348 volt, 200 mile range, performance pack with BMS.

But seriously folks, when it comes to lithium how cheap is cheap enough? I
don't mean fantasy pricing, but the actual tipping point ($/kWh) where you'd
put down cold hard cash for a lithium pack. Let's assume BMS inclusive since
it's pretty much compulsory.

Steve


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Its still hard to say Steve. You would want to compare the price to the
next best thing that we _can_ afford right now and consider several factors
like range per charge and number of cycles. I would not want a $12,000
lithium pack that got 200 miles per charge if I could only get 500 cycles
and we do not yet know how their life is actually going to hold up in a car
with us beating on them. I think it will come down to two things in a final
analysis $/mile (which is dependant on the cycle life) and miles/charge
(which the criteria can be many and varied for peoples taste). But without
that magic number of cycles its hard to say. I would love a 348V, 200 mile
lithium based pack for $2000. Even if it did only get 500 cycles it is
still better than my $2000 set of AGM's that only got ~35 miles/charge and
maybe 500 cycles. I don't think that pack would need to be that inexpensive
for people to buy them. I think the $12K, ~144V, ~100 mile packs are
getting close to piquing peoples interest. 

...but we can still hope 

Mike

> -----Original Message-----
> From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On
> Behalf Of Stephen West
> Sent: Monday, February 25, 2008 12:27 AM
> To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <[email protected]>
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Source for lithiums!
> 
> > $2000 for a 348 volt, 200 mile range, performance pack with BMS.
> 
> But seriously folks, when it comes to lithium how cheap is cheap enough?
> I
> don't mean fantasy pricing, but the actual tipping point ($/kWh) where
> you'd
> put down cold hard cash for a lithium pack. Let's assume BMS inclusive
> since
> it's pretty much compulsory.
> 
> Steve
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

So let's analyse most important: cost per mile.

a $12000 lithium pack giving 200 miles range and 500 cycles
turn to be a 100 000 miles pack costing $0,12/mile

a $2000 AGM pack with 35 miles and 500 cycles
turn to be a 17 500 miles pack costing $0,11/mile

Lithium car lighter weight (acceleration gain) seems to value himself enough
for a $0,01/mile difference to me ;^)
And if you use Lifepo4 there is a chance to obtain between 500 to 1000
cycles instead of max 500 cycles so
$/mile gain is way better for lithium.

Philippe

2008/2/25, Mike Willmon <[email protected]>:
>
> Its still hard to say Steve. You would want to compare the price to the
> next best thing that we _can_ afford right now and consider several
> factors
> like range per charge and number of cycles. I would not want a $12,000
> lithium pack that got 200 miles per charge if I could only get 500 cycles
> and we do not yet know how their life is actually going to hold up in a
> car
> with us beating on them. I think it will come down to two things in a
> final
> analysis $/mile (which is dependant on the cycle life) and miles/charge
> (which the criteria can be many and varied for peoples taste). But
> without
> that magic number of cycles its hard to say. I would love a 348V, 200
> mile
> lithium based pack for $2000. Even if it did only get 500 cycles it is
> still better than my $2000 set of AGM's that only got ~35 miles/charge and
> maybe 500 cycles. I don't think that pack would need to be that
> inexpensive
> for people to buy them. I think the $12K, ~144V, ~100 mile packs are
> getting close to piquing peoples interest.
>
> ...but we can still hope 
>
> Mike
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On
> > Behalf Of Stephen West
> > Sent: Monday, February 25, 2008 12:27 AM
> > To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <[email protected]>
> > Subject: Re: [EVDL] Source for lithiums!
> >
> > > $2000 for a 348 volt, 200 mile range, performance pack with BMS.
> >
> > But seriously folks, when it comes to lithium how cheap is cheap enough?
> > I
> > don't mean fantasy pricing, but the actual tipping point ($/kWh) where
> > you'd
> > put down cold hard cash for a lithium pack. Let's assume BMS inclusive
> > since
> > it's pretty much compulsory.
> >
> > Steve
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > For subscription options, see
> > http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>
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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> a $12000 lithium pack giving 200 miles range and 500 cycles
> turn to be a 100 000 miles pack costing $0,12/mile

Yes but I think 100 miles and 1000 cycles for 12k will happen a lot sooner.

Steve


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Dan Frederiksen wrote:
> > Alan Petrillo wrote:
> >> In their precautions they say to not immerse the battery in water or
> >> seawater. Considering my first use for one of these puppies would be in
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Jeff Shanab wrote:
> > I think they are worried about discharge and corrosion of the terminals
> > eventually allowing seawater to creap in. If they were worried about
> > pressure the spec would contain a depth.
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> [email protected] wrote:
> > they may also be concerned that lithium is a metal salt and very
> > reactive with water...rapid oxidation.
> 
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> a $12000 lithium pack giving 200 miles range and 500 cycles
> turn to be a 100 000 miles pack costing $0,12/mile

This is where the calendar life question kicks in. Will they last? I've 
driven 8,000 miles in 2 years. With a Li pack I'd probably drive an extra 
1k/year. So at 5K miles/year that pack would have to last 20 years to 
remain cost competitive with AGM lead, and even longer to match flooded 
lead.

The only Li packs I've seen for sale claim a 5-7 year life, but have a 3 
year warranty.

That said, I'd put up $8-$10k in a heartbeat for a pack that would get me 
50 miles/day for 15 years. I could stretch it to $15k, but I'd need some 
guarantee the batteries wouldn't crap out in 10 years.

-Adrian

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> That said, I'd put up $8-$10k in a heartbeat for a pack that would get me
> 50 miles/day for 15 years.

1. What's your system voltage?
2. What's your peak current draw?
3. Any idea what your Wh/mile is?
4. What would you pay if it might only last 5 year?

Steve


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Stephen West wrote:
> > That said, I'd put up $8-$10k in a heartbeat for a pack that would get me
> > 50 miles/day for 15 years.
> 
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> > Stephen West wrote:
> > > That said, I'd put up $8-$10k in a heartbeat for a pack that would get me 50
> > > miles/day for 15 years.
> >
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

They are still available and are great batteries but a 100ah 6V block 
is about $650 and there is a few months lead time. Expensive but you 
can use the full capacity and they last a long time!

M




> EVDL Administrator wrote:
> 
> >
> >> Stephen West wrote:
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

$650 for 6V 100ah? if we look at headway that would be 2 in series and
10 in parallel 20*17.25 is only $345.00

I know the cavat of charger and bms but I see where the Nicad is a
dieing option. (I'd love a set)

Now upgrading to valence $1900 for 19.2V 65ah the nicad equiv would be
about $690. Much better deal.

K2 works out about the same price.


How much does a 6V 100ah monoblock weight and what are their dimensions?

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> On 26 Feb 2008 at 18:35, Jeff Shanab wrote:
> 
> > How much does a 6V 100ah monoblock weight and what are their dimensions?
> 
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> EVDL Administrator wrote:
> > On 26 Feb 2008 at 18:35, Jeff Shanab wrote:
> >
> >> How much does a 6V 100ah monoblock weight and what are their dimensions?
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

If there were high demand they would cost much less but remember they 
can be cycled to o DOD and that is how you restore their capacity. 
There are packs that are over 15 years old still going strong! No BMS 
required, too bad the price is not lower due to low production. I have 
them in my Think and they are great batteries!

M




> Dan Frederiksen wrote:
> 
> > EVDL Administrator wrote:
> >> On 26 Feb 2008 at 18:35, Jeff Shanab wrote:
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Mark Dutko wrote:
> > If there were high demand they would cost much less but remember they
> > can be cycled to o DOD and that is how you restore their capacity.
> > There are packs that are over 15 years old still going strong! No BMS
> ...


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