# 60h calb cells in an EV?



## frodus (Apr 12, 2008)

what kind of vehicle?


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## Newbiee (Feb 16, 2011)

when it is complete and including these cells it would weigh 2500 lbs estimated a nissan 240sx


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## frodus (Apr 12, 2008)

Depends on voltage you're running at. If it's high enough (over 200V) it might be enough. For anything under 144V, I think 60ah batteries are not a good fit for an EV this size. They're great for a motorcycle, but a little small for anything over 1000lbs. The current draw is too high for these. 

don't build the pack around running them at 10C, build them for the continuous rating of TS, which is 2-3C.


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## Newbiee (Feb 16, 2011)

i was going to get 40 of them so at 3.2v its 128volts and at 3.6 its 144 i cant afford the 100ah ones damn... so you think it would be better to go back to LA?


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## MN Driver (Sep 29, 2009)

500 amps / 60Ah = 8.33C That's more current than I've seen anyone run from these larger prismatic style cells. I'm figuring most 500 amp controllers being 144v, if this pack covers the range you want you will likely need to drop the max current your controller can draw, which will reduce performance. As an example Jack Rickard uses a 1000 amp controller with 180Ah cells but doesn't need to pull the max amperage for more than a few seconds. If you are going to have a 500 amp limit and want to pull 500 amps from the batteries I'd aim for 100Ah unless you can live with and commit to lower performance, if your controller is programmable but you might not like it. I'm not really certain what the limits are on these batteries but 6C or higher seems extreme, especially if you have voltage around 144v or so and 500 amp draws, you might be pulling heavy current like that for 15 seconds or so to get on the highway and get the batteries too hot internally and cause early failure.

What is your pack voltage? Is your controller programmable?


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## frodus (Apr 12, 2008)

yeah, for 40 cells and 128V, 60Ah cells are too small for a car, IMHO.

Is the cost the huge issue? Why not save up a little and wait to get some 100Ah batteries? Even then, 500A is 5C.


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## Newbiee (Feb 16, 2011)

i cant do that because im out of a job right now but i need this for transportation atm.

I read somewhere that the 60ah cells can do 240amps continues discharge 4c wouldn't that be fine for a car?


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## EVfun (Mar 14, 2010)

Newbiee said:


> I read somewhere that the 60ah cells can do 240amps continues discharge 4c wouldn't that be fine for a car?


60 amp hour Winston (Thunder Sky) cells can put out 300 amps at 2.9 volts per cell. That means a pack of 40 cells will make about 38 horsepower peak. I have not tried taking my 60 amp hour TS cells above 300 amps yet.


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## frodus (Apr 12, 2008)

They can, but they shouldn't sustain that.

And you won't get close to the energy out of them at 5C, you'll get much less energy out of them at that discharge rate.


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## EVfun (Mar 14, 2010)

You are right Travis, they should not sustain 5C. Winston is quite clear that the maximum continuous discharge rate is 3C and ideally less than that. Continuous power needs would be a lot less than peak (better be, 5C is the 12 minute discharge rate.)

I was just trying to point out how little power NewBiee was working with. 38HP in a 2500 pound car will give performance comparable to a stock '50's Beetle. I've driven a few of those and they suck on the freeway.


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## Newbiee (Feb 16, 2011)

can u guys elaborate a little more hehe i don't really entirely understand why this option will not work well  I am using the open revolt controller. Where can i find more information explaining the C rates better?


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## EVfun (Mar 14, 2010)

The capitol "C" refers to capacity. So, for the 60 amp cells 1C is 60 amps, 5C is 300 amps. C is often used instead of amps because larger cells can deliver more amps with less effort, it is a way to aid in comparing cells of different sized. 

Horsepower is rpm times torque (in ft-lb.) divided by 5252. Horsepower is also volts times amps divided by 746 in theory. In reality it is about 10 to 20 percent less on the motor shaft because the motor efficiency is generally between 80% and 90%. So, I can estimate the power you have available if I know your pack voltage and current. 

I can get manufacturers data from them. Here is some data on the 60 CALB cells. Here is data on the current CALB 70 amp hour cells (these are the same size as the Winston energy 60 amp hour cells.) Here is the data on the Winston (also known as Thunder Sky) 60 amp hour cells.


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## frodus (Apr 12, 2008)

Newbiee said:


> can u guys elaborate a little more hehe i don't really entirely understand why this option will not work well  I am using the open revolt controller. Where can i find more information explaining the C rates better?


because your car will require high amps for starting and for hills, and even running continuous. More than these 60Ah cells should give. They're designed for a safe 4C or below. I wouldn't go above that or the voltage will drop. You'd be stressing the batteries too much IMHO.

Do more research on lithium batteries for now. If you don't understand them, and this is a budget build, use SLA for now, they're more forgiving.


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## jackbauer (Jan 12, 2008)

I was in the same boat as yourself. wanted lithium but couldnt afford a pack of 160 or 180ah cells and couldnt use anything smaller due to C rate. My car frequently pulls 400 to 500amp accelerations. The answer was headway cells. My pack is comprised of 192 x 16ah headay cells for 48s4p. 152v 64ah and easilly able to pull 500amp bursts. Cost only marginally more than my 120v agm pack did and i'd never go back to lead.

Headway have a much higher C rating than calb or tsky. Each 64ah "cell" in my pack can hold 10C or 640amps!


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## frodus (Apr 12, 2008)

Newbiee, how much range do you need?

Also, please note that sustaining 10C is not recommended for continuous, but for newbiee's conversion, it should be just fine. 5C or below for continuous is recommended.

Nice looking pack Jack..... I got some UHMW I'm planning on using in the same style of way.


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## jackbauer (Jan 12, 2008)

Fair point on the discharge rating. I should have said they can do 10C if pushed. Most of my driving is sub 200amps and they run great. I recently ran the car almost to a halt. 41 miles of mostly motorway driving at 60-70mph. I would guess 50 miles if driven more conservatively. The headways are a great way into lithium if one has modest range requirements and on a budget.


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## Newbiee (Feb 16, 2011)

Oh thanks so much for this solution i will look into headway right away!  any recommendations on who would be the cheapest headway distributor in California?


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## jackbauer (Jan 12, 2008)

I bought my cells direct from China through work. The only US based supplier that I would recommend would be Manzanita Micro. I bought some samples and cell holders from them and the service and communication is excellent. Frodus would probably have a better idea then myself.


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## frodus (Apr 12, 2008)

jackbauer said:


> I bought my cells direct from China through work. The only US based supplier that I would recommend would be Manzanita Micro. I bought some samples and cell holders from them and the service and communication is excellent. Frodus would probably have a better idea then myself.


Thanks Jack, We appreciate it.

I've dealt with headway for a few years and hundreds of customers (from my group buy in 2009, from EVComponents and now from Manzanita Micro). They're good cells and they're what I'm putting in my motorcycle. I know there are other better cells, and many worse, but IMHO these are the best bang for the buck for lifepo4.

I know that our prices may be about the same prices as direct from China, but we're domestic and pretty easy to deal with, and we offer some things they have a harder time with (after-sales support, warranty, taking credit cards).

Manzanita has been in business for a long time and will not be going anywhere soon. I currently work for them as technical sales and support, so if you need anything, just let me know. I've been around the forums for a few years now, and many people have bought controllers, motors, batteries, BMS from me, and I still support them.


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## Newbiee (Feb 16, 2011)

Oh i did not know you worked for manzanita micro lol thanks for taking you're free time to help me. 
I think 30 miles of range is good for me for now, that headway pack seems pretty tough to build hehe. If i understand correctly you're using them in series and parallel with four: 16ah batteries for 3.2v and 64ah x 4 for 12.8 volts and 64ah a set x 12 sets. Pretty tricky haha! 

I did like the calib power prismatic cells because i live within local pickup range of their Pomona location so would save on shipping. 

192 cells would be 6,144$ for headway ouch, but wouldn't the 100AH calb batteries be cheaper? so you guys are saying even the 100ah batteries will not cut it for my setup? especially if i drop the pack voltage drastically to afford them right? ughhh ... why isn't anything ever easy!


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## frodus (Apr 12, 2008)

No prob, not helping just because I'm manzanita, its just in my nature 

it's not purely an Ah thing. It depends on what current you draw. I assume it's not built yet? you really don't want to stress the cells. I think Calb would be cheaper per Ah, but with 64Ah, you could get away with your setup, with 60Ah of CALB, you can't. 64Ah of headway is cheaper than 100Ah of CALB at the same voltage.

What motor/controller do you have?


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## Newbiee (Feb 16, 2011)

nope its not built yet, i have the fb0-4001 motor and open revolt controller. Can i get away with using 100ah calb batteries at 96v, i know i would be drawing more amps with this lower voltage but how much more would it be? i could do with a top speed of 65mph, 30mpc, im hoping for 200 wh/mile with lithium batteries. I drive slow anyway, what would be you're recommended battery pack for this while keeping the cost minimal?


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## frodus (Apr 12, 2008)

Is the car still gas? Is it manual? Consider keeping it gas until you're ready to spend a little more.

If it were me, with a car like that, I'd do no less than 120V with 100A calbs. It's not just range. You'll be really digging into those batteries and stressing them at higher currents. The voltage sag under acceleration could be pretty substancial, and your top speed at 96V won't be that high (although you're using a transmission).

If lithium is too much, maybe consider SLA to start with, and I'm not sure where to start with those (I never really did Lead after my first setup to get things running).


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## EVfun (Mar 14, 2010)

The FB-1 is a great motor but it is likely to leave you disappointed unless you can feed it with at least a 120 volt pack. They make quite a bit of torque per amp, but that means less rpm per volt. With a low pack voltage the peak power rpm is to low and you start hunting the next taller gear to soon.

Perhaps you could get away with a 45 to 50 of the 70 amp hour CALB cells. I don't think this would be practical with less than 3000 amp hours worth of cells and that means about $4000 in cells.


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## Newbiee (Feb 16, 2011)

OK then this seems to be my only option and i will have to make do, and try the way of jack bauer! except a little cheaper than him lol! I think it will be better than going fla. Let me know what u guys think. I know my range will probably not reach 30 miles but i would not be able to reach 30 miles with fla either as the weight would surpass my gvwr so... this looks like a good plan to me unless u guys can debunk this hehe.

I purchase 90 of the 16ah headway cells for 144v nominal and 32ah. That is like only 100 pounds of battery correct? I think this will be good because i have manual steering and with this weight i can do manual brakes also, i will have the heater element but only really for defrosting windows because im in california so its not that cold here, pretty much all the power will go straight into the drivetrain, watcha guys think? its a sports car so the drag coef is .3 but i will try to get it lower of course, i have been reading a lot of ecomodder.com hehe

Or would 105 headway cells for 112v nominal and 48ah be good too? the first plan is more within my budget but the second one is possible if i can find a really good deal on the batteries and the extra stuff to hook them together.


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## Newbiee (Feb 16, 2011)

oh yea i forgot i also already got rid of the A/C system and have no radio either lol so i meant it for power to the drivetrain  yes i do have the manual transmission and also clutch-less drive coupler.


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## frodus (Apr 12, 2008)

32 or 48Ah is still too low, even for headways. 500A is still 10C, which isn't recommended. The voltage drops way too much. Go 64Ah if possible with headway, or 100Ah or more with CALB. If you go below that, you risk stressing those batteries and may have to replace them in a year or two. 

Not sure why this project was started without more battery research, usually batteries are one of the most expensive things, and the one that limits the build.

I'd still go with floodies for the first vehicle, because you will need for sure, a monitoring system for lifepo4. You don't for lead, and it's more forgiving.


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## dtbaker (Jan 5, 2008)

frodus said:


> 32 or 48Ah is still too low, even for headways. 500A is still 10C, which isn't recommended. The voltage drops way too much. Go 64Ah if possible with headway, or 100Ah or more with CALB. If you go below that, you risk stressing those batteries


this part I agree with absolutely.




frodus said:


> I'd still go with floodies for the first vehicle, because you will need for sure, a monitoring system for lifepo4. You don't for lead, and it's more forgiving.


This I would argue with.... the cost per mile over the 75,000+ life of LiFePO4 (if cycle claims hold up) will be far lower than lead and you get a much better performance for the same energy with lower weight and less sag. I am betting at this point that you really DON'T need a cell level monitoring system.... just occasional checks to make sure cells are not too far out of balance at end of charge, and conservative habits not to take the pack too far down on the low end.


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## ElectriCar (Jun 15, 2008)

What is your reason for wanting to switch to EV? If you're wanting to save money long term you're going to have to up your battery voltage and Ah. I'm running 200Ah cells at 160V. The actual voltage until nearing 50% DOD or so if about 167-168V. Normal driving and I'm pulling less than 1C which keeps the temperature of the batteries down. 

The more current you pull from them the hotter they get. This can cause problems which reduce their Ah over time and shortens life. If you can't afford a decent size battery then you should probably adhere to Frodus suggestion to just use lead, though it pains me to suggest that after my switch to lithium. 

If you go with too small a lithium cell you likely will destroy them quickly and it will have cost you way more than the gas you would have used to go that far.

Keep in mind the higher voltage you use the less Ah that's needed for a given task. BTW I have the same 144V motor as you. So far it has worked fine at that voltage though I don't have but a few hundred miles on it to date.

For a reference, my truck weighs about 3300 lbs and with a relatively easy start it will draw 150-200A for a few seconds, almost 34Kw at 200.


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## jeremyjs (Sep 22, 2010)

Listen to what everyone is telling you. Do more research on how to treat the batteries to make them last. If you build the pack too small and over work lithium you will kill them.

Even the higher rate headway packs won't last long if you constantly run them at their limits. The cycle rating on all the chinese lithium I've seen is at a discharge rate or C/3 to no more than 1C continuous. The short term burst many be pretty high, but doing it more than 10 seconds or so is very bad for them.

About the only LiFePO4 I've ever read about any testing on that can do both high discharge and still have a reasonably long life are A123's; which are clearly out of the question; since they're one of the best and most expensive LiFePO4 batteries made. Not to mention simply getting ahold of legitimate cells is still a challenge.


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## Newbiee (Feb 16, 2011)

EVfun said:


> The FB-1 is a great motor but it is likely to leave you disappointed unless you can feed it with at least a 120 volt pack. They make quite a bit of torque per amp, but that means less rpm per volt. With a low pack voltage the peak power rpm is to low and you start hunting the next taller gear to soon.
> 
> Perhaps you could get away with a 45 to 50 of the 70 amp hour CALB cells. I don't think this would be practical with less than 3000 amp hours worth of cells and that means about $4000 in cells.


Evfun do you really think i would be ok with the 70AH calb cells if i run them with 144 volts? I could maybe do 147 volts, i think my controller could handle that, the absolute absolute max on it is 200v but its for leeway. From what i understand the C/3 rate would be 210 amps continuous safe discharge. the 100AH calbs C/3 would be 300 amps which is still far from 500amps, does everybody feel like 500 amps continuous rate is required? 

The reason why i am trying to learn about lithium is because with Lead i consider it to be expensive and in return, well i cant get much in return in either range, life, or performance in my size vehicle. And according to the claims with lithium expensive as well, i could actually get something in return though. Range, life, light weight for performance, which in turn gets me more in return because it makes the vehicle more usable more often and for more situations.

ElectricCar when driving normal, what kind of driving situations cause your EV to draw more than 200 amps if u don't mind me asking?


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## dtbaker (Jan 5, 2008)

I started with a 96v lead pack, curtis 1221 controller (400amp max), in a Suzuki Swift (Geo Metro). It was drivable and could reach and maintain speeds I need around town; but was pretty slow accelerating from stop and struggled to accelerate or maintain 50mph on one section of road that has a steady significant climb.

After the lead tired out, I upgraded to 120v (38 x 100ah) Thundersky cells...same controller. WHAT a difference! I got more range, better performance, and dropped 500# in less physical space. Acceleration is at least as good as the average econobox car on the road, braking is easier, handling way better.

Steady state on a gentle climb at 50mph pulls about 200amps, flats are less than 100, but accelerating from a light I'll take whatever I can get from the controller!

For 'drivability' I would recommend no less than an 8" motor, 400amp controller, 120v x 100ah batteries.


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## ElectriCar (Jun 15, 2008)

Keep in mind my truck is heavier than yours will be with lithium batteries. I hadn't drove mine in a few weeks until Friday and I watched the amps as I drove which I typically do at first. 

Acceleration and hill climbing is where I can exceed 200A. I try to keep the amps low at anytime however when one is on your bumper and you know you're going too slow, you have to pick it up a little if you want to be considerate of others and not incite road rage. With my 144V lead pack at 4150 lbs there were some hills I couldn't accelerate on and struggled to maintain speed, often pulling 350A or more. 

On flat ground it now pulls as little as 30A depending on the speed but always under 100 unless on the interstate at those speeds.

You'll love lithium if you can manage to do it properly. If you don't, seriously you may as well drive down the road throwing $$$ out the window. I know it's tempting but if you can you really should do it properly. 

You may find some used batteries. I know gottdi had some a while back. Check the ads, ebay etc.


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## dtbaker (Jan 5, 2008)

I do know that some Thundersky batteries are going to be made available next week. I don't know the exact quantities or ah sizes. The group of us that have been in Litigation trying to get our batteries from EVC/Morrison (for more than a year) settled on friday. The batteries we've been able to recover will be offered for sale thru http://currentevtech.com . Since they are available for immediate delivery already in the US, people won't have to deal with the sometimes sketchy Thundersky delivery dates of FOB China via slow boat....


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## ElectriCar (Jun 15, 2008)

Wow that's great news Dan. How did you guys come out? Did you take a loss?


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## dtbaker (Jan 5, 2008)

ElectriCar said:


> Wow that's great news Dan. How did you guys come out? Did you take a loss?


yes, we took a loss. the majority of the group voted to settle for *something* rather than risk not being able to collect a court awarded judgment. Morrison has done a great job hiding or selling inventory that existed when EVC closed, but can no longer be found, despite court injunction against sale that has been in place for more than a year. It was pretty depressing to me to see how a person can abuse the legal system to commit massive consumer fraud and walk away 'clean'.

Kois who was originally a minority owner has NOT settled, and will be pushing in Court for Judgments and Civil sanctions. I won't make any excuses for David's apparently slow response to some recent people other than to say the supply line of Thunderskys has been sketchy through the big importers, and he has been up to his eyeballs dealing with this case, and will be... for another couple weeks.


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## EVfun (Mar 14, 2010)

Newbiee said:


> Evfun do you really think i would be ok with the 70AH calb cells if i run them with 144 volts? I could maybe do 147 volts, i think my controller could handle that, the absolute absolute max on it is 200v but its for leeway. From what i understand the C/3 rate would be 210 amps continuous safe discharge. the 100AH calbs C/3 would be 300 amps which is still far from 500amps, does everybody feel like 500 amps continuous rate is required?


It is not the amp hour capacity of the cell that is the issue, it is the amount of horsepower you can make without stressing the cells excessively. 36, 100 amp hour cells and 60, 60 amp hour cells will make the same amount of power at a 5C (peak) discharge. The first case will be about 2.9 vpc (volts per cell) times 36 cells time 500 amps for 52.2 kW. The second case will be about 2.9 vpc times 60 cells times 300 amps for 52.2 kW (that would be about 57 horsepower.) The controller can handle the power conversion so the motor sees the same result. If it is a bit past the controllers limits then gear selection (or gearing changes) can allow the motor to operate at a higher rpm. 

That is why I look at the total installed amp hours instead of the chosen capacity cells. 3000 amp hours is what I would consider to be the very bottom end of reasonable, not what is desirable. It won't be fast and the range will be short. With some driver awareness and programming the controller to limit peak power it should provide that coveted EV grin. 

I may have the smallest pack of prismatic LiFePO4 cells in an electric car. My buggy has a 1920 amp hour pack. That is 32, 60 amp hour cells. I can pull off such a small pack because the car weighs about 1150 lb. 40, 60 amp hour cells would work fine in a Geo Metro. I think 1.2 amp hours per pound of vehicle is a minimum for Winston or CALB cells. 1.5 amp hours per pound would be more desirable.


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## tomofreno (Mar 3, 2009)

> ...52.2 kW (that would be about 57 horsepower.)


 Its about 52200/746 ~ 70 H.P. You must have been thinking of something else.


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## EVfun (Mar 14, 2010)

tomofreno said:


> Its about 52200/746 ~ 70 H.P. You must have been thinking of something else.


I was thinking a little over 80% motor efficiency at peak power.


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## Newbiee (Feb 16, 2011)

So the 70ah cells x 45 and 5c peak is about 49HP then. I don't really have an idea in my head about electric motor HP relative to actual speed or acceleration, maybe you could give me an idea hehe. I do have an idea for gas car HP though, if you can say 50hp electric would feel like a 90hp gas or something. 

Also i find it weird that calb websites list all their batteries as recommended charge and discharge current to be 0.3c for 2000 cycles. And the only source i could find that lists max discharge of 3/C is alibaba.com. On that website they list the calb batteries at 3/C continuous from 40ah to 180ah except the 130ah, which are listed as 4/C continuous and 3/C charging?? For the 70ah calb cell in the title it said the 70ah ones have a capacity of 81-100ah, but 70ah is not in between 81-100.


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## Newbiee (Feb 16, 2011)

this is the link to the 70ah battery:
http://cali-battery.en.alibaba.com/product/406055271-211992146/SE70AHA.html

and this is the link to the 130ah battery:
http://cali-battery.en.alibaba.com/product/342406538-209369932/SE130Ah_vehicle_battery.html


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## MN Driver (Sep 29, 2009)

Go directly to the CALB site where you aren't seeing outdated spechseets like the ones on Alibaba.

Here's the link
http://en.calb.cn/

They show the new CA series cell there now, which I didn't see a week ago.
CA series cells are the gray ones that have been in pictures on there site and in pictures from the trade shows for a year now, I think, roughly that time frame at least.

I'm trying to spot the differences, the weight is heavier for the CAs on the smaller cells but lighter on the 400Ah cell. Max power substantially the same, I'm really quite lost on what is new, I'd assume the new ones are improved.

I'll take a stab they are similar but retested and SE=Sky Energy CA=China Aviation? Keeping the blue ones around until they sell the rest of the cases? I'm taking stabs in the dark.

To the OP, the C rates for 10 second peak power are just that, you pull that much power and you are done until you've let them cool off for awhile. Smaller cells can pump higher C rates due to the internal resistance versus capacity. Put two 100Ah cells together and you'll have less voltage sag than a 200Ah cell and there is less physical distance that the electricity has to travel.

If you want to take the risk, I say go ahead but monitor the temperatures at the terminals if they never pass 140f or 60c, you'll probably be fine as long as they are cool before the max draw and you aren't jack-rabbiting stop light after stop light. You can't run the 10 second peak and then immediately cruise the highway with a small pack.

For what its worth, there is only two people that have actually documented failures with high C rate draws. One was a 4C almost constant draw where the cells would have been fine IMHO if they weren't discharged below 30% SOC where the cells dramatically got hotter. ...or someone who used ThunderSky 40Ah cells from 2008 and pulled 6C out of them in acceleration and a constant rate that I remember being over 1C, a few too many times and he lost a few to them venting while riding but vowed to continue riding his motorcycle after replacing the 6 I think he said he lost and slowing down a little to protect the others. I'm not sure how the newer CALB cells compare to the ones he had but everything I've seen makes them seem better and I don't see 5C being an issue, 6C for a short period is something I'd do myself because it seems that Rickard's cells didn't pop on his speedster at 5.556C with plenty of accelerations going around a track. (180Ah 1000 amps)

I was trying to get a set of older HiPower cells, had the deal of a lifetime on used ones but they just were announced sold at the beginning of the month but I sat on my ass for about half a year trying to plan the drive to California for them. I was going to abuse cells made for 3C tops that the worst ones sagged to 2.25v at 3C, probably a good thing I lost the chance, I can get much better batteries too bad I'll be spending 2.6x more for them, oh well, winter performance will be better. Speaking of which, a small pack will be severely anemic when cold, plan to heat those batteries when it gets chilly out or you'll probably park the car.


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