# 555 multiple mosfet driver



## Doc (Jul 5, 2008)

You need to consider switching losses. That is wasted power as the Mosfets switch, this has to be done as fast as possible and to do that you have to be able to charge/discharge the gate within it's rise/fall time.
You can calculate the current needed by VC/t so if you use 12V and the driver sees 40 x 1800pF input cap. and you want to charge that in 35nS, you get 12 * 72nF / 35nS = 25A. If you include turn on time you get 17A
If you dont supply the gate with atleast 17A, the rise/fall times will increase and put more power over the mosfet.
During switching you can rughly estimate half current and half voltage over the mosfet, compared to at full on when only the mosfets Rds on is affecting the losses. So at Rds on 0.18 /40 = 0.0045 ohm 300A = 405W
and during the switch at 300A 120V you have aprox. 9KW over the mosfet, but this is only for a fraction of the time, so as long as you keep switching times down, this is not a big problem.
So yes, you could use one to drive the others, as long as the 555 has enugh power and is fast enugh to drive the one...
But you'd be better off using two (one N and one P) so you could both source and sink and even better off using a mosfet driver with a TTL input...


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## Shanex-2 (Jun 7, 2008)

thanks for the reply I am still trying to learn electronics so I can build my own motor controller and although it is easy to find diy kits for small motor controllers ones for bigger ones are nonexistent.


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## Shanex-2 (Jun 7, 2008)

here is a simpe 555 IC pwm that I put together a while back to get an idea of what is required .aside from it having a switching speed in the audiable range is there any thing wrong with using this to drive mosfets or an IGBT to control the vehicle speed .


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## TheSGC (Nov 15, 2007)

I built a 2 KHz 555 timer controller that drove a series wound motor successfully and I am keeping it as a backup in case my newer board design has problems. I have added current limiting to it. BTW, I am using an IGBT because they are much easier to work with than 30-40 MOSFETS.


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## Shanex-2 (Jun 7, 2008)

thanks for the info . I like the keep it simple mentality and I did find mosfets that handle more in the range of 200 volts and 1oo amps per mosfet . I am wondering how you did yours more specificly how you drove your igbt. As I said I am still new with the electronics stuff and still looking for a cheep and simple solution for speed controll. I wouln't mind using a 555 based controller that makes a little noise when working.


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## TheSGC (Nov 15, 2007)

Shanex-2 said:


> thanks for the info . I like the keep it simple mentality and I did find mosfets that handle more in the range of 200 volts and 1oo amps per mosfet . I am wondering how you did yours more specificly how you drove your igbt. As I said I am still new with the electronics stuff and still looking for a cheep and simple solution for speed controll. I wouln't mind using a 555 based controller that makes a little noise when working.


You would have to pick out and IGBT and create a driver that works with it, or get one. I have the PRX-CM600HA-24H and it needs 15-20 volts DC to drive the gate without saturating so I use high power NPN and PNP transistors froom Radio Shack, mixed with a few resistors.

I'll try and post my schematics later, one for the IGBT driver and one for the 2kHz PWM controller.


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## ga2500ev (Apr 20, 2008)

I am so happy to see yet another DIY controller thread. I truly believe that the fundamental breakthroughs in low cost DIY electric vehicles are in controllers and adapter plates.

There seems to be 3 major parts of a PWM controller:

1) The PWM generator
2) The driver electronics
3) The power electronics

The two ends are not too terribly complicated. For PWM you can use anything from a 555, to a dedicated PWM chip, to a microcontroller. For the power electronics either IGBTs, which are simple, cheap, but burn power (and therefore require heatsinking) or MOSFETs, which use less power, but are somewhat expensive and need to be paralleled, are viable options.

But the driver seems to be the killer. Doc, thanks for the lesson because the driver itself is high powered electronics too. One needs a push/pull driver capable of delivering upwards of 25A to the power electronics in both voltage directions in order to be effective.

The last item of course is the freewheeling diode. I thought I saw a suggestion to use the body diode of a IGBT as the freewheeler. Has anyone tried this?

But the fundamental question remains: how can one cheaply and reliably drive a high capacitance IGBT module or rack of MOSFETs quickly? A push pull driver seems to be the right ticket. But it requires a deadband gap on turn on turn off. Here's a diagram below that I found while looking at push/pull drivers.

http://electronicdesign.com/Articles/ArticleID/6203/6203.html

Any more suggestions for the driver would be greatly appreciated.

ga2500ev


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## Qer (May 7, 2008)

Don't forget the 4:th part: Surveillance.

You want some kind of over current and overheating protection that first shuts down the PWM for a while (like inhibiting some of the pulses to avoid things to escalate) and then, if that doesn't help, kills the main contactor to avoid a runaway scenario or similar situations.

Having a dumb PWM that just keeps pushing it despite things going to hell might be expensive (if you're lucky) and even turn out to be a negative bias for your expected remaining life span.


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## Shanex-2 (Jun 7, 2008)

but can the survallence be as simple as a temp gauge or a seperate modual that backs off the potentiomiter setting?


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## Qer (May 7, 2008)

Shanex-2 said:


> but can the survallence be as simple as a temp gauge or a seperate modual that backs off the potentiomiter setting?


I would say the simplest solution is three comparators:


Triggers on high current and pulls the reset on 555 so the PWM stops for a while.
Triggers on high*er* current and releases the contactor.
Triggers on high temperature and releases the contactor.
If it just adjust the potentiometer settings it'll only mean you'll give it more throttle (or whatever you should call it). It's better with a system that kills things more definitely. To be nice to the driver you could have a temperature meter on the dash board so the power cut doesn't come entirely out of the blue.


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## Shanex-2 (Jun 7, 2008)

just a thought would it be easyer to make it in seperat sections having a pwm board - a survallence board - a driver board- a power board and would it be practical to use an optocouple between the pwm and the driver.


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## ga2500ev (Apr 20, 2008)

I did forget the safety features. For starters one can measure the motor current and if it gets to high you can shut down the PWM pulse. It looked to me that the built in comparator in some of the PIC microcontrollers can help serve that purpose quite well.


ga2500ev


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## Shanex-2 (Jun 7, 2008)

isn't that what the amp meter is for


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## ga2500ev (Apr 20, 2008)

There's a response time issue. The controller is fast enough to cut out the motor where the driver may not respond fast enough and burn something up.

ga2500ev


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## Shanex-2 (Jun 7, 2008)

ok that makes sense I didn't think the amps got out of controll that fast to be a problem.


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## TheSGC (Nov 15, 2007)

My 555 controller cuts the PWM to 0 when it reaches the over current (Which is adjustable by changing a reference voltage) but disconnecting the POT and sending it to ground. Actually works quite well, and is very sensitive. My PIC controller also does the same thing, setting the PWM to 0 when over the predetemined current and I am working on implementing my temperatue sensors.


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## ga2500ev (Apr 20, 2008)

Ok. let's get back to the focal point, MOSFET/IGBT drivers that are simple and actually work. Let's presume we can switch enough current (20-30A), what issues are critical in putting together a workable driver?

ga2500ev


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## Doc (Jul 5, 2008)

An alternative to the 555, komplete with PCB artwork.
This could be used to drive a pack of Power MOSFETs
http://solorb.com/elect/pwm/pwm1/


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## TheSGC (Nov 15, 2007)

ga2500ev said:


> Ok. let's get back to the focal point, MOSFET/IGBT drivers that are simple and actually work. Let's presume we can switch enough current (20-30A), what issues are critical in putting together a workable driver?
> 
> ga2500ev


Are you talking about a 20-30 AMP gate driver?  If you use a large IGBT module, you only need 1A maybe 2A driver.


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## Doc (Jul 5, 2008)

ga2500ev said:


> Ok. let's get back to the focal point, MOSFET/IGBT drivers that are simple and actually work. Let's presume we can switch enough current (20-30A), what issues are critical in putting together a workable driver?
> 
> ga2500ev


 
imo i'd start with sourcing for one at:
http://semiconductors.globalspec.co...ivers?SrchItem=1&frmqry=driver&kqid=110016957

If I couldn't find one that fullfills my specs, then I'd build one.
Things to consider would be that it can be driven from whatever source i have, that it can drive the following gates and that it's fast enugh to keep switching losses down.


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## Shanex-2 (Jun 7, 2008)

what about using those igbt you find on ebay used like the powerex # cm600ha-24h it has a 1200 volt and 600 amp rating .
and could it be driven with a UCC27322 it has the following specs.

High-Peak Current Drive Capability of ±9 A at the Miller Plateau Region Using TrueDrive 
Efficient Constant Current Sourcing Using a Unique BiPolar & CMOS Output Stage 
TTL/CMOS Compatible Inputs Independent of Supply Voltage 
20-ns Typical Rise and Fall Times with 10-nF Load 
Typical Propagation Delay Times of 25 ns With Input Falling and 35 ns with Input Rising 
4-V to 15-V Supply Voltage 
Available in Thermally Enhanced MSOP PowerPAD™ Package With 4.7°C/W







jc 
Rated From –40°C to 105°C 
Pb-Free Finish (NiPdAU) on SOIC-8 and PDIP-8 Packages 


APPLICATIONS 

Switch Mode Power Supplies 
DC/DC Converters 
Motor Controllers 
Class-D Switching Amplifiers 
Line Drivers 
Pulse Transformer Driver
also availibel on ebay. would these work?
I would have posted data sheets but my computer would'nt diaplay them


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## ww321q (Mar 28, 2008)

Shanex-2 said:


> what about using those igbt you find on ebay used like the powerex # cm600ha-24h it has a 1200 volt and 600 amp rating .


There are some old threads on this forum that discussed them . I have 2 of them on my desk . If nothing else they make fine papar weights ! LOL! J.W.


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## ga2500ev (Apr 20, 2008)

TheSGC said:


> Are you talking about a 20-30 AMP gate driver?  If you use a large IGBT module, you only need 1A maybe 2A driver.


Check out Doc's post #2 in the thread. To slam the door open and closed on the gate is going to take significant current to override the gate capacitance, especially if you're going with paralleled MOSFETs, which have virtually no voltage drop relative to the IGBTs. So yes I'm talking about a 20-30 AMP gate driver, even if that 20-30 AMPs is only for 30-40 ns per switch.

I think we have enough elements here to start thinking through a workable driver. The circuit that Doc posted has the problem of only being a low side driver. This means that the gate will float and not turn off cleanly when the PWM is off.

I don't have a circuit but here's a text walkthrough of my idea:

1) PWM source doesn't matter. Take your pick.

2) Use the deadband circuit that I posted in my other post. The 74HC14 will guarantee clean fast edges.

3) Use the opamp/comparitor driver from Doc's posted circuit and use two of them to drive the gate power MOSFETs. Find opamps that go rail to rail (324s don't) and have fast slew rates. The opamps will serve as level shifters to the power MOSFETS because they can be driven at 15V no problem which will fully drive both MOSFETS and IGBTS. 

4) Drive a NMOS/PMOS pair in a half bridge push/pull configuration from the opamps. They can easily handle the high amp load and with the deadband circuit precceding the opamps, you can guarantee that both won't be on at the same time shorting the supply.

Easy to build, robust, and more than enough power to drive a whole rack of power MOSFETs hard to keep switching losses down.

Any holes?

ga2500ev


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## Doc (Jul 5, 2008)

ga2500ev: imo no holes ...
You could use a window comparator, like the attached pic.
That will eliminate crossover currents.


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## Shanex-2 (Jun 7, 2008)

does anyone have a schematic with part listings of what worked for them ? or what thread shows the schematics ? 
Alot of what I have seen so far is theory.


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## ga2500ev (Apr 20, 2008)

Doc said:


> ga2500ev: imo no holes ...
> You could use a window comparator, like the attached pic.
> That will eliminate crossover currents.


The only question I have is the transition time in the window long enough to guarantee that one turns off before the other turns on? It seems like unless you slow the ramp/up ramp/down time of the input, that there will only be some 10s of nanoseconds in the window.

The circuit I posted seemed to have a tunable transistion time so that you could ensure that one was off before the other turned on.

ga2500ev


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## Shanex-2 (Jun 7, 2008)

does anyone know of any books that go in depth on dc motor speed contollers say the driver and power sections ? The only books close enough that I have are:
Build Youre Own Electric Vehicle by Bob Grant
and
Practical Electronics For Inventors by Paul Scherz
They have helped but Im still learning all the lingo of electronics. Any suggestions?


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## ga2500ev (Apr 20, 2008)

Shanex-2 said:


> does anyone know of any books that go in depth on dc motor speed contollers say the driver and power sections ? The only books close enough that I have are:
> Build Youre Own Electric Vehicle by Bob Grant
> and
> Practical Electronics For Inventors by Paul Scherz
> They have helped but Im still learning all the lingo of electronics. Any suggestions?


The Motor Control Handbook by Richard Valentine

http://www.amazon.com/Control-Electronics-Handbook-Richard-Valentine/dp/0070668108

ga2500ev


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## ww321q (Mar 28, 2008)

ga2500ev said:


> The Motor Control Handbook by Richard Valentine
> 
> http://www.amazon.com/Control-Electronics-Handbook-Richard-Valentine/dp/0070668108
> 
> ga2500ev


Which I have sitting right here on my desk . I quit reading it because it gave me a massive "headache" LOL ! J.W.


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## Doc (Jul 5, 2008)

ga2500ev said:


> The only question I have is the transition time in the window long enough to guarantee that one turns off before the other turns on?


 
If Vin is 12V and the resistors are 10K, 100K and 10K, would make the window 1-11V. The transition time would be the time it takes for the PWM signal to fall/rise between 1 and 11V and that would depend on it's slew rate. In a window comparator, one allways turns off before the other turns on, if the transistors following it does, that's another question 
Then we're back to charge/discharge


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## TheSGC (Nov 15, 2007)

I am been way to busy building my EV this week, but tonight I will dig out my laptop and update the schematics with all sorts of info about my 555 controller and post them as PDFs. I just hooked it up again today to my motor to do a test on the new coupling to check its balance, and the controller worked flawlessly.


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## jlsawell (Apr 4, 2008)

TheSGC said:


> ... tonight I will dig out my laptop and update the schematics with all sorts of info about my 555 controller and post them as PDFs.


Very much looking forward to seeing that info. Do you think it's something I could knock together with no electonics experience except junior high electronics classes? I'm OK with a soldering iron and know how to make a rudimentary cicuit board with Tandy/Radio Shack components.

I'd be really interested in hearing about how you built your controller, TheSGC - especially since the local Kelly distributor isn't stocking them any more. I'd rather build one than buy a Curtis, but I'll pay the money if it's too difficult...

The eternal trade-off, I guess...


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## TheSGC (Nov 15, 2007)

jlsawell said:


> Very much looking forward to seeing that info. Do you think it's something I could knock together with no electonics experience except junior high electronics classes? I'm OK with a soldering iron and know how to make a rudimentary cicuit board with Tandy/Radio Shack components.
> 
> I'd be really interested in hearing about how you built your controller, TheSGC - especially since the local Kelly distributor isn't stocking them any more. I'd rather build one than buy a Curtis, but I'll pay the money if it's too difficult...
> 
> The eternal trade-off, I guess...


I am still working on listing all the parts and such, but everything was from Radio Shack except the IGBT module and the shunt. If you can read schemtatics, like resistors, transistors and pins on a chip (Pin1, Pin2, etc.) anyone should be able to build it.


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## rfengineers (Jun 2, 2008)

Perhaps this is off topic, but y'all (that's southern-speak for "all-of-you") might find this interesting.

There is an article in this month's Nuts-and-Volts magazine on programming a PIC microprocessor as a PWM.


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## slingin6 (Aug 7, 2008)

This is no my second post here. I first posted in technical discussion but rfengineer suggested I should post here. I also have edited my post to contain slightly more info. I am new to EV's and just starting to experiment with them. I was looking to find an inexpensive motor controller that would handle a wide range of voltage and high curent. I have not been able to do this.
I have been in the electronics, computer, machining business for 30 years though. I recently bought the remaining electronics from a business that was closing. In the components that I purchased there were a batch of Mitsubishi QM200HA-H Transistor Modules. I believe these were the predecessors to the newer IGBT's. They will support 600VDC and 200Amps. 
Data sheet can be found here. http://www.datasheetarchive.com/pdf-datasheets/Datasheets-20/DSA-398848.html

Now here is my idea for a no frills PWM Controller. I believe that I can interface this module to one of the inexpensive scooter PWM controllers that are available. They have the capability of handling upto 30amps and can be found in 14,24,36volt configs. With many being able to actually handle 22-48volts. They also can be found for 30-50 dollars all over the web. Here is a page of these type controllers. http://www.electricscooterparts.com/speedcontrollers.html
I have not tried this at this time but was wondering if anyone else has tried this. I know I won't have many features. But for testing and horsing around this will allow me a broad range of voltage and fairly high current. For more current I believe I can also use multiple transistor modules.
Let me know what problems I may have.

I also have a 4 extra transistor modules if anyone has a need. Again here is the data sheet. http://www.datasheetarchive.com/pdf-datasheets/Datasheets-20/DSA-398848.html
Slingin6


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## TheSGC (Nov 15, 2007)

The problem with that is those controllers use MOSFETs and aren't designed for IGBTs, so they wouldn't work. IGBT and MOSFETs use different current limiting and driving configrations, not to mention that the voltage shutdown/overload will probably kick in too. Also, those controllers use integrated voltage regulators for the small logic board, and adding higher voltage will probably toast them.

When I first started my own controller many months ago, I got my hands on an old PWM MOSFET controller with the hope of switching out the MOSFETS with higher end ones, but the reality was the logic board could take the higher voltage and the current limiting was locked and would kick in way before it would move any EV.


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## Windy (Jun 27, 2008)

This is my first post,I have been following the EV forum for about two months. I am going to convert a toyota supra and have a GE 11" motor and will be using a chevy 2-speed powerglide with torque converter. I have an old EV-100 controller but would like to build my controller using IGBTs. Anyone considering using parallel IGBTs will find some good info. on the Powerex site in their tech library. I am looking foward to the schematics from The SGC.This fourm has a wealth of knowledge I'm glad I joined.


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## TheSGC (Nov 15, 2007)

Ok, here is the schematics you all have been waiting for! 

Also, I did not put the flywheel diode on the schematics, but just FYI it is composed of two RadioShack 1N5404, and the postive end goes on the positive motor connection, and the negative goes on the negeative motor connection, in the usual freewheel fasion.

You will notice that the logic board needs a 24 volt connection, and should share the ground with the main traction power for the current limitng to work properly. The +5, +12 and variable voltage regulators work great for the different sources, but should have no more than 24 volts input. 

And if you want some pics of this design in action, check out my website in my sig and there are a video or two of this design running my motor at 12 volts, and another motor at 66 volts.

And the IGBT module I have used is a PRX CM600HA-24H


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## Shanex-2 (Jun 7, 2008)

wow many thanks to : DOC , ga2500ev , TheSGC , and all those who have posted thusfar. my computer was down for awhile and I was unable to keep up but it is working for now and I was pleasently surprised at all the posts . Looks like I still have alot to learn and a long way to go but definetly worth it .


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## Shanex-2 (Jun 7, 2008)

Does anyone know what the zilla controler uses (like what the white zombie uses ) is it igbt or mosfets ?


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## TheSGC (Nov 15, 2007)

Shanex-2 said:


> Does anyone know what the zilla controler uses (like what the white zombie uses ) is it igbt or mosfets ?


The Zilla uses IGBTs.


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## Shanex-2 (Jun 7, 2008)

ah That explains there cost and the ability to control so many amps (TheSGC) THANKS AGAIN for those scematics they will realy help me understand how to control a dc ev motor .


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## jlsawell (Apr 4, 2008)

TheSGC said:


> Ok, here is the schematics you all have been waiting for!


LEGEND! Thanks heaps, TheSGC. I think I'll need someone to help me set out the circuit board, but I will be able to solder the circuits myself.

If I take those 2 sheets into Radio Shack, someone there should be able to help me select the right components and layout, right?


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## TheSGC (Nov 15, 2007)

jlsawell said:


> LEGEND! Thanks heaps, TheSGC. I think I'll need someone to help me set out the circuit board, but I will be able to solder the circuits myself.
> 
> If I take those 2 sheets into Radio Shack, someone there should be able to help me select the right components and layout, right?


If they have had any training they should be able to help. I labeled all the parts as they appeared on the RadioShack packages. The only parts that aren't from RadioShack are the IGBT and the Shunt, but the shunt is the standard 500 AMP 50 mV shunt from EV suppliers.


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## Shanex-2 (Jun 7, 2008)

Oh TheSGC I forgot to check and make sure that it is set up for the 
PWX-CM600HA-24H IGBT . And do you set yours up only to run 500 amp as a safty or is there other reasons?


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## EnergyOfOne (Jul 23, 2008)

This may help 

Build your own 500amp water cooled speed controller 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qgoc4MwsukM

Further on in his videos he talks about offering a kit for about $200 US -this video here
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hN1BA...eature=related

There is over 50 Videos


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## Shanex-2 (Jun 7, 2008)

VERY GOOD INFO hopfully he is on this forum or he will join soon he seems to have alot of good ideas that could realy help us newbys out and those like me who are not electronicly inclined yet. I know I will watch the whole series of that subject!


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## Shanex-2 (Jun 7, 2008)

I don't know what happened with the guy on youtube (tommeyleeReed)but he just pulled all his videos on making a speed controller does anyone know this guy? What happened ?I could acces the stuff this morning now I get -this video has been removed by the user. by youtube???


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## Shanex-2 (Jun 7, 2008)

well I just got an e-mail from the guy who posted the- How to make a powerful speed controler on youtube (Tommey Lee Reed )and he told me that he didn't pull those videos youtube did. Ain't that a bunch of crap makes you wonder if the oil companies are behind it .Just when you think there is hope we are reminded what we're up against. However he does have a separate web site and if I read it right he is selling the speed controllers in his- about us - section of the web site at the bottom of the page. His site is *http://www.rotarypistonengine.com*


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## ww321q (Mar 28, 2008)

Oh !! I ran across Gator Controllers a long time ago . He builds whatever you need . I don't think that they have any current or voltage protection though. His price seems reasonable though . J.W.


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## jlsawell (Apr 4, 2008)

TheSGC, I went into Jaycar this afternoon and handed over your sheets and asked for a quote. He said the only item they didn't have is the TIP42G and the rest looks like this:

ZR1100 Diode 1N914/1N4148/BAW76 D $0.32
ZL3555 IC NE555 TIMER DIP8 $0.98
RG5065 CAP GRN 10N 100V P=4mm $0.18
RG5125 CAP GRN 100N 100V P=7mm $0.36
RR0596 RES 0.5W MTL 10K 1% MINI P $0.38
ZL3324 IC LM324N QUAD OPAMP DIP14 $1.50 
RR0620 RES 0.5W MTL 100K 1% MINI $0.38
RR0572 RES 0.5W MTL 10K 1% MINI P $0.38
ZL3339 IC LM339N/LM2901N QUAD COM $1.50

Total: $5.98 - can that be right?

So how can Kelly, Zilla, Curtis and the rest charge over $1,000 for parts which cost less than $100? (Assuming the box, TIP42G and heatsink don't cost more than $94)...

Does it all fit on a single board inside the box?

How do I go about making the circuit board? I remember in High School we had to cut the paper, dissolve the silver in acid or something and then take the rest of the paper off and the silver board would remain - is that how it's still done or is there a better way of making the board?


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## ga2500ev (Apr 20, 2008)

jlsawell said:


> So how can Kelly, Zilla, Curtis and the rest charge over $1,000 for parts which cost less than $100? (Assuming the box, TIP42G and heatsink don't cost more than $94)...


It's like the old joke:



> A man needs his central air unit repaired. The tech comes out accesses the situation, pulls out a nut and screws it on. The AC works! The tech then presents the homeowner with a bill for $500.
> 
> The furious homeowner demands for the total to be itemized. The tech produces this itemized bill:
> 
> ...


Controllers are the same. While the parts themselves are not too terribly expensive, putting it all together so that it works safely and reliably enough to sell to others is a whole 'nother ballgame.

There are always three things that companies have to deal with that hobbyists do not: infrastructure, risk, and profit. By the time you've costed out all three over raw materials and labor, you'll see prices like you've seen.

So as hobbyists we trade sweat equity and risk for dollars.



> Does it all fit on a single board inside the box?


No idea. From the look of the circuit there isn't a whole lot of real estate though.


> How do I go about making the circuit board? I remember in High School we had to cut the paper, dissolve the silver in acid or something and then take the rest of the paper off and the silver board would remain - is that how it's still done or is there a better way of making the board?


Another example of DIY vs. commercial interest. The commercial route is to layout a custom circuit board and send it off to a board house such as ExpressPCB or the like. The opposite end is your description above, which personally I would not recommend.

A good compromise is to use either a stripboard or some type of general purpose PC board. For example I have in front of me a Radio Shack 276-150 that looks like this:










Has two power bus rows running down the middle and grids for .3 in width ICs. If you need more space there's one that mimics the layout of their white breadboard.

This is one area where KISS can really help.

ga2500ev


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## TheSGC (Nov 15, 2007)

I actually used a RadioShack board, the larger one, and I will try to post some pics tonight after school. (College starts up again today) 

Each of the transistors and voltage regulators should have their own heat sink, and RadioShack has those little ones designed for them.

@jlsawell - Yeah, suprisingly cheap ain't it? The only expensive parts are the IGBT module and the shunt. Yes, I do have all the electronics on a single board, and there is still a lot of room to work around.


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## Shanex-2 (Jun 7, 2008)

TheSGC I just whant to make sure that the igbt is the PWX-CM600HA-24H IGBT


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## TheSGC (Nov 15, 2007)

Shanex-2 said:


> TheSGC I just whant to make sure that the igbt is the PWX-CM600HA-24H IGBT


Its the PRX CM600HA-24H 1200 volt 600 AMP module. It's a real beast, but it's heatsink is isolated so it can be mounted anywhere on a heatsink in the EV.


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## Shanex-2 (Jun 7, 2008)

thanks TheSGC . I just got a catalog from digi-key but a radio shack is very close to my house so I will probably go through them . Has anyone made there own circuit board for there controller? How are they made ? I saw one made by drawing on a single sided copper clad board with a sharpy pen and then put it in a bucket of some chemical and it stripped off the unmarked copper . Does anyone know what that chemical is ? Is there more to it then that ? Or is it that simple.


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## TheSGC (Nov 15, 2007)

Shanex-2 said:


> thanks TheSGC . I just got a catalog from digi-key but a radio shack is very close to my house so I will probably go through them . Has anyone made there own circuit board for there controller? How are they made ? I saw one made by drawing on a single sided copper clad board with a sharpy pen and then put it in a bucket of some chemical and it stripped off the unmarked copper . Does anyone know what that chemical is ? Is there more to it then that ? Or is it that simple.


I found it easier to use one of the premade basic boards from Radio Shack. This is the board I used for my controller: http://www.radioshack.com/product/i...&cp=2032058.2032230.2032265&parentPage=family

It does the job quite well, and had plenty of space so it was easy to work with.


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## iowasq (Aug 22, 2008)

ga2500ev said:


> Another example of DIY vs. commercial interest. The commercial route is to layout a custom circuit board and send it off to a board house such as ExpressPCB or the like. The opposite end is your description above, which personally I would not recommend.


expresspcb really isn't _that_ much when you consider what you're getting and the much added ease of assembly(and potential future troubleshooting).

http://www.expresspcb.com/ExpressPCBHtm/Specs.htm


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## Shanex-2 (Jun 7, 2008)

oh thats right you keep the high current igbt off of the pc board and on a seperate heat sink .right? That way you wouldnt need those really wide copper tracks.


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## jlsawell (Apr 4, 2008)

TheSGC said:


> I actually used a RadioShack board, the larger one, and I will try to post some pics tonight after school. (College starts up again today)


I know the feeling of having several things on at once. Any help appreciated with this controller, pics, circuit layout etc. Schematic is fine but I need to see how to translate it onto the board.

Thanks heaps for your help thus far, too


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## TheSGC (Nov 15, 2007)

jlsawell said:


> I know the feeling of having several things on at once. Any help appreciated with this controller, pics, circuit layout etc. Schematic is fine but I need to see how to translate it onto the board.
> 
> Thanks heaps for your help thus far, too


I haven't had the time to dismantle my controller for a decent picture, but I found one in my archives of my EV progress, so it should be of some help. (My time is being eaten up with getting the EV on the road as it was supposed to be running yesterday )

http://civicity.blogspot.com/2008/09/controller-guts.html


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## JAFO (Aug 2, 2008)

Try a HUF75344G3 UltraFET which is rated for up to 75 amps, wire them up in parallel for increased current capacity.


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## Madmac (Mar 14, 2008)

> Try a HUF75344G3 UltraFET which is rated for up to 75 amps, wire them up in parallel for increased current capacity.



Max volt 55. Fine for a 36 volt system

Madmac


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## jlsawell (Apr 4, 2008)

TheSGC said:


> http://civicity.blogspot.com/2008/09/controller-guts.html


To paraphrase Sir Isaac Newton, TheSGC, you are truly "a giant whose shoulders we can stand upon".

I'll be going to the electronics specialist tomorrow with your schematic and pics to see if they can help me sort it out in my mind.

Am I right in thinking you are using wire to join the legs of the components together, in the same way a custom circuit board would use the copper to achieve the same result? Your standard board is set up with a set of copper "plates" containing 2 holes each. One hole is for the leg of the component, the other hole is for wire to join to the next leg?

So by following your pics and referring to the schematic to confirm which legs to join, I should be able to get 99% laid out properly and just get the propeller-heads to check it before I supply power?

I figure at $5 a pop I can afford to blow up 5 or 6 before it becomes a problem...


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## TheSGC (Nov 15, 2007)

Yeah, I just used 22 gauge solid wire to connect the components on the board together, and I used 18 gauge for the conenctions to the IGBT, POT Box and power connections.

Oh, and something I completely forgot to mention is that this design needs a three wire throttle. So all off you need to add another wire to your Curtis PB5/PB6 box. I did it to my PB5 and I will try to dig up the pictures later.

I am finishing the plates tonight and I might be able to do a bench spin with the controller and motor attached to the transmission. And hopefully this weekend the motor goes into the car and I can do a bit of driving, assuming I buy some more batteries of course.


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## rfengineers (Jun 2, 2008)

All Electronics (www.allelectronics.com) has a special on MOSFETs. Part number STP80NF12, 120 Volts 80 Amps for (USD)0.85 each.

If you need higher voltage, Digikey gets about (USD)9.00 each for IFRP90N20, 200 Volts 94 Amps.

Look at the article by Mark Hazen in the November 2007 edition of Power Electronics for a method of configuring multiple MOSFETs. http://powerelectronics.com/power_s...ets/power-controller-symmetrical-layout-1107/

I don't remember who originally referred me to the Hazen article, it may have been on this forum, but it is well worth reading.


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## popeye2008 (May 17, 2008)

great thread people
If you were to clamp the voltages with MOV(s) how would you size them- voltage and amperage wise?
Also anyone's thoughts on these chips for voltage supplies to various parts of a controller- gate drives, pics etc...? Here's the chip they come in 5, 12 and 15 volt versions http://www.national.com/ds/LM/LM2576.pdf

Thanks


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## jlsawell (Apr 4, 2008)

TheSGC said:


> Oh, and something I completely forgot to mention is that this design needs a three wire throttle.


AAAHHHHH! You can't just leave it there! More info please...

Where? Why? How? I have a PB6 so pics and some details, please! I'm a real newbie at the electronics so please...keep it simple and comprehensive.


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## TheSGC (Nov 15, 2007)

jlsawell said:


> AAAHHHHH! You can't just leave it there! More info please...
> 
> Where? Why? How? I have a PB6 so pics and some details, please! I'm a real newbie at the electronics so please...keep it simple and comprehensive.


I know I left you hanging. All you need to do is add another wire to the empty connection there. For my throttle, I bought a three wire cable and just replaced the whole thing. I will post a pic later because my school firewall is blocking it at the moment.


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## madmike (Jul 11, 2008)

TheSGC said:


> The +5, +12 and variable voltage regulators work great for the different sources, but should have no more than 24 volts input.


What are you using for your voltage regulators?

and where did you find the tip3035 in the IGBT driver schematic?


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## Tommey Lee Reed (Sep 2, 2008)

rfengineers said:


> All Electronics (www.allelectronics.com) has a special on MOSFETs. Part number STP80NF12, 120 Volts 80 Amps for (USD)0.85 each.
> 
> If you need higher voltage, Digikey gets about (USD)9.00 each for IFRP90N20, 200 Volts 94 Amps.
> 
> ...


Just because the rated mosfet is 94 amps does not make it putting out that, when building a controller none of you know what your talking about!
Controller are not just base on a mosfet or igbt's, its base on many factor and cooling heatsink, a irfp90n20 will not put out 94amps with low gage wire coming from it, you will get about 90% if its water cooled only, but anyother heat sink will be about 30 amps before shorting out the wires on it.
The heat sink will have to be very big to get that....


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## ga2500ev (Apr 20, 2008)

Tommey,

No need to be rude. You're talking to potential customers here.

Use it as a teaching opportunity.

All power electronics should be derated from their theoretical max current carrying capacity. The rule of thumb I've seen is each unit should carry no more than half its rated current. For the 94A units, each one should carry no more than 47A. So if you wanted 500A you'd need a minimum of 11 parts in parallel.

ga2500ev


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## Tommey Lee Reed (Sep 2, 2008)

ga2500ev said:


> Tommey,
> 
> No need to be rude. You're talking to potential customers here.
> 
> ...


It will take 1/3 the power output on the wires not half, unless its very good heat sink or water cooled.
150v 49 amps will short out the mosfet wires........
I was able to push one mosfet to 90% water cooled before wires melted, 30% with a good hesat sink!
I build speed controller, that's how I know!
My gator controller is running at 76% output with water cooled heat sink with 11 - 150v 60amp rated mosfets that put out 500 amps.
The heat sink still gets a little warm, but hold the output at 500 amps.
Facts are most controllers won't last 1 minute at 500 amps....


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## TheSGC (Nov 15, 2007)

Throttle picture is attached. 

As for the TIP3055 and the regulators, they are the standard Radio Shack regualtors.


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## jlsawell (Apr 4, 2008)

TheSGC said:


> Throttle picture is attached.


Looks like my PB6 without the arm-activated switch. I'll have to open it up and see if the pot is the same...

What kind of wire to use? 
Is the third wire the one that attaches to D2 of the 1N4148 in your schematic?

Also, looking at this schematic, what are the triangles at the bottom right corner? There are 6 triangles with numbers 5-13. Please explain?

Also, can you explain the voltage inputs on the schematic? You've got +5V, +12V on the main board and +18V on the IGBT board. I can't figure out how these work, because my electronics know-how is limited...

Thanks for your patience and assistance!


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## madmike (Jul 11, 2008)

TheSGC said:


> Throttle picture is attached.
> 
> As for the TIP3055 and the regulators, they are the standard Radio Shack regualtors.



Ok.. the schematic says TIP*3035* now you say TIP*3055*... I can't find a TIP3035 at Radio Shack... Is it the TIP3055 then??

Thanks


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## TheSGC (Nov 15, 2007)

madmike said:


> Ok.. the schematic says TIP*3035* now you say TIP*3055*... I can't find a TIP3035 at Radio Shack... Is it the TIP3055 then??
> 
> Thanks


Really, crap I wrote the wrong thing down! It's supposed to be a TIP3055 from the yack shack.

BTW- I did a test spin with my motor in the car yesterday, and the controller worked just fine. I couldn't hear the 2 KHz sound from inside the cabin. Now I have to make a motor mount and I will maybe get in a road test this weekend and really see how the controller will perform.

Oh, on one modification I am going to make for my controller, is I am lowering the current limit from the 5v reference to a 2.5 volt reference. That changes the battery-current limit from 500 AMPs to 250 AMPs, and I am doing that because the batteries have a 250 AMP breaker that would blow if someone decided to floor it. With the reference set to 2.5 volts, the current limit would kick in before the breaker would.


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## TelnetManta (Jun 5, 2008)

Sorry to ask an off topic question, but, how easy would it be to use one of these controllers to control a treadmill motor's speed at pack voltage. I'm still trying to figure out a way to run my A/C.

Ben




TheSGC said:


> Really, crap I wrote the wrong thing down! It's supposed to be a TIP3055 from the yack shack.
> 
> BTW- I did a test spin with my motor in the car yesterday, and the controller worked just fine. I couldn't hear the 2 KHz sound from inside the cabin. Now I have to make a motor mount and I will maybe get in a road test this weekend and really see how the controller will perform.


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## jlsawell (Apr 4, 2008)

TheSGC said:


> Really, crap I wrote the wrong thing down! It's supposed to be a TIP3055 from the yack shack.


MMMM. I learned the same thing yesterday when I went into the electronics shop. No problem though - we sorted it out. The 3055 is $3.02 each but you have to buy a pack of 5. They can also supply the Circuit Board, box and heatsink, which is good!

Question: The TIP42G isn't available - they only have TIP42C. Can anyone help me with the difference and whether it's important enough to insist on the TIP42G? Do the trailing letters just designate "PCB-mounted" or "Non-PCB mounted" or is it something more important like voltage?

Also, still waiting on answers to my earlier post  - questions about the schematic


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## TheSGC (Nov 15, 2007)

jlsawell said:


> MMMM. I learned the same thing yesterday when I went into the electronics shop. No problem though - we sorted it out. The 3055 is $3.02 each but you have to buy a pack of 5. They can also supply the Circuit Board, box and heatsink, which is good!
> 
> Question: The TIP42G isn't available - they only have TIP42C. Can anyone help me with the difference and whether it's important enough to insist on the TIP42G? Do the trailing letters just designate "PCB-mounted" or "Non-PCB mounted" or is it something more important like voltage?
> 
> Also, still waiting on answers to my earlier post  - questions about the schematic


The TIP42C is NOT to be used. It is a negative transistor and the TIP42G is a positive transistor.

As for the extra triangles at the bottom, don't pay attention to them. The Comparator and the OP-AMP have four seperate units in them, and those triangles represent the unused parts and appear there as a side-affect of the software I used to make the schematic.

The +5V is the reference for the current limit on the batteries. The +12V is the votlage for all the power electronics and the +18V is the power for the IGBT driving.


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## jlsawell (Apr 4, 2008)

TheSGC said:


> The TIP42C is NOT to be used. It is a negative transistor and the TIP42G is a positive transistor.
> 
> As for the extra triangles at the bottom, don't pay attention to them. The Comparator and the OP-AMP have four seperate units in them, and those triangles represent the unused parts and appear there as a side-affect of the software I used to make the schematic.
> 
> The +5V is the reference for the current limit on the batteries. The +12V is the votlage for all the power electronics and the +18V is the power for the IGBT driving.


Thanks heaps!! I am slowly getting my head around this. 

So I connect the +12V wire to the existing 12v car battery to supply power to the controller and the GND just goes to the car body like a -VE? 

How do I obtain 18v for the IGBT? 

And is +5v (or 2.5v now, as per your recent edit) a setting or voltage input? Does one of these resistors or transistors have a setting screw that I set to 2.5? Is that how it works?

Sorry for all these questions, esp as you're trying to get your car on the road.

ps - here's the guts of my PB6 - same as yours, and I've soldered in the third wire already, with a little cable-tie to keep it snug.


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## madmike (Jul 11, 2008)

He doesn't show it in his schematic, but I think he's using the LM317T adjustable voltage regulator from R-Shack for the +5/2.5V input. Of course if your gonna have it set at 500amps you could use the LM7805 to just have 5 volts all the time. I also think he's using the LM7812 from R-shack as his 12V input. I'm not sure on the 18V it could be another LM317T?? I haven't a clue on what it takes to drive the IGBT. Maybe he'll chime in...


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## TheSGC (Nov 15, 2007)

madmike said:


> He doesn't show it in his schematic, but I think he's using the LM317T adjustable voltage regulator from R-Shack for the +5/2.5V input. Of course if your gonna have it set at 500amps you could use the LM7805 to just have 5 volts all the time. I also think he's using the LM7812 from R-shack as his 12V input. I'm not sure on the 18V it could be another LM317T?? I haven't a clue on what it takes to drive the IGBT. Maybe he'll chime in...


That is exactly what I have. The +18 comes from another LM317T and all the regulators get their input from a 24 volt source.

If you get your 24 volt source from your main traction pack, you MUST have the GND of the controller be the same as the GND for your Motor (M-) 

The IGBT is rated for 15-20 volts gate, but 18-20 volts keeps the saturation low and helps to prevent lockup and saturation.


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## jlsawell (Apr 4, 2008)

TheSGC said:


> That is exactly what I have. The +18 comes from another LM317T and all the regulators get their input from a 24 volt source.


Is it one of these? How do I set the voltage, since I can't see a way of changing the settings? Or do you use different resistor combinations to set the voltage?

How about some of us put our heads together and do up a decent set of diagrams for the wiki? That would make it a heap easier for more people to build their own 500A controllers.


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## Shanex-2 (Jun 7, 2008)

This is the priceless info you just cant get out of a text book. looks like some are alot farther than I am in there construction of there controller .Many thanks to TheSGC for all your input.


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## Shanex-2 (Jun 7, 2008)

do they make dc-dc converters that put out 24 volts ?Or is there so little draw from the controller that it is more practical to run your controller voltage from your traction pack and have a seperate 12 volt vehicle battery system?


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## TheSGC (Nov 15, 2007)

Shanex-2 said:


> do they make dc-dc converters that put out 24 volts ?Or is there so little draw from the controller that it is more practical to run your controller voltage from your traction pack and have a seperate 12 volt vehicle battery system?


The controller doesn't draw a whole lot of power since most of my testing I used three 9 Volt batteries in series and ran it for at least 2-3 hours. (And those were old batteries to begin with!)

Ideally you would want a 24v DC-DC (I believe Kelly Controllers sell them) or a separate 24 volt source from your pack because if you hit the pedal real hard, the voltage sag might go too low and the controller might not work too nicely. But adding some large caps to the 24 volt input of the controller should solve that problem.


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## theboy16 (Feb 28, 2008)

WOW! thanks TheSGC, I finally get to see a schematic of your controller! What I like about it the most, is the fact that all of that is legible to me, and I understand it

Is there a downside to setting the potentiometer to a constant low setting, and having 13.5 volts come out of the IGBT? I'm thinking of a DC-DC converter...

Are there terrible inefficiencies at low settings like that? What about voltage sags?
When something seems too good and simple to be true, it usually is.


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## TheSGC (Nov 15, 2007)

jlsawell said:


> Is it one of these? How do I set the voltage, since I can't see a way of changing the settings? Or do you use different resistor combinations to set the voltage?
> 
> How about some of us put our heads together and do up a decent set of diagrams for the wiki? That would make it a heap easier for more people to build their own 500A controllers.


The voltage regulators do look like that. I have the shematics for the 18 volts and 2.5v regulator that I will post later tonight or tomorrow when I get them all commented. The LM317 does use different resistor combinations to get desired voltages.

I will try to make the entire schematic on a single page, with all the regulators and wiring. I have working entirely on my EV the past week or so and hope to have a street test tomorrow morning or afternoon. It will only be on 60 volts, but I will know pretty quickly how the controller holds out.


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## Shanex-2 (Jun 7, 2008)

I look forward to those schematics. TheSGC Have you posted the build of your car on this site ? If so what tittle should I look for?


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## TheSGC (Nov 15, 2007)

Shanex-2 said:


> I look forward to those schematics. TheSGC Have you posted the build of your car on this site ? If so what tittle should I look for?


I have my blog address in my sig, and I will soon put the link to the garage in there too. 

Ok, so my schematic program is being a real terd and not letting me expand the page to add things, but I will look at that tomorrow. 

And I attempted to drive my car today, but I modified my current limit and didn't test it. So I am sitting there, after 8 hours of getting the car ready, wired and strapped down, camera rolling, I fired it up and nothing happened. I ended up have a defective LM317 for my current limit and it gave a reference voltge of zero, so the controller thought I was over current and shutdown. And also one of my contactors is locked on, so I will have check that out too.


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## Shanex-2 (Jun 7, 2008)

TheSGC Look like murphys law is doing its job. Don't you hate that! I did finaly see that blog site you were talking about very good info thanks


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## ga2500ev (Apr 20, 2008)

I posted a copy of Richard Valentines Motor Control Applications Note here:

http://www.finitesite.com/d3jsys/ev-controller

There's a PDF of a 25 page scanned image that discusses a ton of issues. I have some concerns with the schematic TheSCG posted:



 The IGBT gate driver using 1K gate resistor. The gate of the IGBT he suggested has a gate charge of upwards of 3500 pF. That means that it can take upwards of 17.5 uS for the IGBT to turn fully on or off. Such a slow transition time means that the IGBT will be drawing very high power and generating a lot of heat for 7% of each cycle. See Figure 3 in the application note showing the high current draw.
My next concern is hooking up the half H bridge drivers outputs directly to each other without any deadband protection between them. See my post on the first page of this thread for more info. Valentine resolved the problem by putting a 2.2 ohm resistor on each output so that the current spike is limited.
Capacitance on the motor hasn't been addressed.
Neither has the freewheeling diode. The high current spike that will be generated when the controller turns off will destroy all the power electronics.
I know that everyone here wants a bulletproof design that will save them a ton of money and get the job done. My fear though is that folks building without understanding all the implications of the design will end up frustrating results.

Take the time to read the application note and its associated schematic carefully. While you don't have to implement everything that Valentine does, understanding the basis of how and why everything works will go a long way towards getting the job done.

I truly hope this helps those who are currently building.

ga2500ev


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## Madmac (Mar 14, 2008)

ga2500ev, it is worth saying that the copyright for that application note was Motorola Semiconductor and will now lie with either On Semiconductor or Freescale, the two companies resulting from the split up of Motorola ownership.

It would be an easy task to upgrade the design to more modern parts rather from designing from scratch. It also has protection and safety features which most home brew designs lack. Most important of all it has mechanical details for the construction which at these power levels is more difficult than the electronic design to get right.

Madmac


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## TheSGC (Nov 15, 2007)

ga2500ev said:


> I posted a copy of Richard Valentines Motor Control Applications Note here:
> 
> http://www.finitesite.com/d3jsys/ev-controller
> 
> ...


How did you get the 17.5uS? My math says it's only 10 uS, but I might have done something wrong. I did mention somewhere about the flywheel diodes I am using (two of them) and I didn't think it needed any deadband time because it is a single IGBT.

If you see anything that needs correcting, please tell me and I will put it into the updated schematics. I am working on my second controller design that has a PIC proccessor and a TI IGBT driver, but the driver is TTL input and useless on the 555 design.


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## ga2500ev (Apr 20, 2008)

TheSGC said:


> How did you get the 17.5uS? My math says it's only 10 uS, but I might have done something wrong.


Mine is back of the envelope. With 1k resistance and estimated 3500 pF gate charge, the RC constant is 3.5 uS. It takes 5 RC times to transistion from full on to full off. So 3.5 uS x 5 = 17.5 uS.



> I did mention somewhere about the flywheel diodes I am using (two of them) and I didn't think it needed any deadband time because it is a single IGBT.


The IGBT isn't the issue in terms of the deadband, the driver transistors are. During the transistion, both the 3055 and the TIP42G are turned on, at least partially. So their junction is a short for your 18V power supply. This stresses the regulator for the supply along with the two transistors.

As Doc pointed out in his first post of the thread, a large current is required to move the charge on that gate. You said that you were testing with 9V batteries. Internal resistance will limit your current draw. However if you use a real stiff power supply that can draw 25-30A of current, all of your components will get slammed every time you switch.

Valentine separates the transistors using 2.2 ohm resistors. That will limit straight through current to 4A while allowing 8A of current to move the gate when one transistor is fully on and the other fully off, presuming a 18V gate voltage. However if you deadband, then you can tie the transistors together directly, use a 1 ohm resistor to drive the gate and have 18A of current available to snap the gate open and closed.



> If you see anything that needs correcting, please tell me and I will put it into the updated schematics. I am working on my second controller design that has a PIC proccessor and a TI IGBT driver, but the driver is TTL input and useless on the 555 design.


Why useless? Simply drive the 555 with 5V and everything should work fine. The problem with the 555 is that it's limited. Using a PIC like a 16F88 or a 16F887 will facilitate variable current limits, variable PWM, monitoring interfaces while having onboard comparators that can limit the PWM in overcurrent/overtemp conditions while allowing for a software interface to read those values.

I've been doing microcontroller software for over 20 years. I guess that's why I don't see that side as the issue. I do worry about everything on the power electronics side. I thought I was overengineering, but after reading Valentines appnote, I don't think I am.

I don't remember seeing specifics on your freewheeling diodes and caps. Can you give some more info when you get a chance?

Also what type of testing have you done and at what voltage/current? I'm trying to figure out a workable high voltage, high current bench platform to work on so I don't tear up a really expensive motor.

Thanks for all the hard work TheSGC. You more than anyone on the forum are actually moving the possibility of a useful DIY high voltage controller into reality. I really appreciate the effort and hope that you continue to contirbute.

ga2500ev


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## madmike (Jul 11, 2008)

ga2500ev said:


> I don't remember seeing specifics on your freewheeling diodes and caps. Can you give some more info when you get a chance?
> 
> ga2500ev





TheSGC said:


> Ok, here is the schematics you all have been waiting for!
> 
> Also, I did not put the flywheel diode on the schematics, but just FYI it is composed of two RadioShack 1N5404, and the postive end goes on the positive motor connection, and the negative goes on the negeative motor connection, in the usual freewheel fasion.
> 
> ...


Here's where he posted them...


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## ga2500ev (Apr 20, 2008)

madmike said:


> > Also, I did not put the flywheel diode on the schematics, but just FYI it is composed of two RadioShack 1N5404, and the postive end goes on the positive motor connection, and the negative goes on the negeative motor connection, in the usual freewheel fasion.
> 
> 
> Here's where he posted them...


Now more confusion. How does 2 3A diodes hold up against the back EMF of a motor being driven at hundreds of amps?

I was looking at something like this for the freewheeling diode:

http://theelectrostore.com/shopsite_sc/store/html/diode-meo450-12da-ixys-meo-450-12-da-fred.html

450A @ 1200V.

What am I missing?

ga2500ev


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## Madmac (Mar 14, 2008)

ga2500ev you are not missing any thing. A DC motor PWM is the same as a buck converter with the motor being both inductor and load.

The diode needs to be rated at least the same as the drive IGBT. It will take current during the period that the IGBT is off. On low duty cycles (depending on PWM frequency and inductance) it will be conducting for the rest of the cycle as the current ramps down or nearly 100% of the time. In reality to meet this requirement the diode will be a higher rating.

Madmac


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## TheSGC (Nov 15, 2007)

Madmac said:


> ga2500ev you are not missing any thing. A DC motor PWM is the same as a buck converter with the motor being both inductor and load.
> 
> The diode needs to be rated at least the same as the drive IGBT. It will take current during the period that the IGBT is off. On low duty cycles (depending on PWM frequency and inductance) it will be conducting for the rest of the cycle as the current ramps down or nearly 100% of the time. In reality to meet this requirement the diode will be a higher rating.
> 
> Madmac


That's my fuzzy field at the moment. I searched online for flywheel diode selecting, and everything I have found says that the IDiode Pulse should be equal to or less the motor current. Apparantly the Curtis controllers use two MR2406Fs and those are rated for 24 amps cont, 300 amps pulse. And the Idiode pulses for those Radio Shack diodes are 200 amps, so I got two. (My motor will only suck up to 350 amps)

BTW- the controller is getting a street test tonight on 60 volts.


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## Madmac (Mar 14, 2008)

Ipulse is a limit for the peak current in a period of time. If you look at the device dissipation and work out what it is when it is at the peak level and at PWM repetition rate the diode will not be able to handle it. That is why the standard rating (DC) is much smaller than peak. When the duty cycle is low the diode carries the current for the rest of the cycle.

When the IGBT is switched on the current thru the inductance of the motor ramps up. When the IGBT switches off the current starts to flow thru the diode. The current then ramps down, it will either reach zero in which case the controller is working in discontinuous mode or the IGBT will switch on before this point and the controller is working in continous mode.

The mode is dependant on the inductance of the motor and the frequency of the PWM.

Madmac


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## spidermonkey (Sep 15, 2008)

which after reading this all brings me to my question.....
some here has done many EVs and most likely had the controller failed. why not dismantle and use the dead unit as inspiration.. ie rip it off directly. copy the booard layout and parts making nessicary improvements or listing alternates ya can think of, like you can sub 400a for 300a or what ever


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## theboy16 (Feb 28, 2008)

I love this thread.


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## TheSGC (Nov 15, 2007)

spidermonkey said:


> which after reading this all brings me to my question.....
> some here has done many EVs and most likely had the controller failed. why not dismantle and use the dead unit as inspiration.. ie rip it off directly. copy the booard layout and parts making nessicary improvements or listing alternates ya can think of, like you can sub 400a for 300a or what ever


Google "Curtis Schematic" and you will find the schematic layout for the Curtis 1221B that Otmar reversed from his old Curtis. It's not entirely complete, but most of it is there. 

I am going to use another IGBT module as a flywheel diode, as I have a few laying around. I ended up cooking my 12 volt regualor after I modified my current limit to 250 amps and I don't know why it fried, so it will take me a few days to diagnose it. 

I am spending most of my time on my programmable controller, so this one has been put on the diagnostic bench for the next week or so. Once I get my microprocessor controller working (hopefully this week) I will get back to the 555 design.


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## TheSGC (Nov 15, 2007)

Mother of Hell. 

I figure out why the controller toasted. It wasn't a design flaw, act of god, little green men or my little brothers. 

It was me. 

I dropped the fraking wrench accoss the B- and the M- with the caps still charged while removing it to fix my current limiting and it sparked, but I forgot about it. My dad just reminded me. The caps were still charged, and the electrons found their way to their happy place, frying my 12 volt chips on the controller on their way.

Lesson to all those assembling controllers/EVs: Put shrink tube on your tools.


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## ClintK (Apr 27, 2008)

TheSGC said:


> Google "Curtis Schematic" and you will find the schematic layout for the Curtis 1221B that Otmar reversed from his old Curtis. It's not entirely complete, but most of it is there.
> 
> I am going to use another IGBT module as a flywheel diode, as I have a few laying around. I ended up cooking my 12 volt regualor after I modified my current limit to 250 amps and I don't know why it fried, so it will take me a few days to diagnose it.
> 
> I am spending most of my time on my programmable controller, so this one has been put on the diagnostic bench for the next week or so. Once I get my microprocessor controller working (hopefully this week) I will get back to the 555 design.


TheSGC, thanks for all the work & sharing you're doing with designing and building a controller!

I'm considering building the controller of the schematic you posted... I saw that you have a current limiter of either 250 Amps or 500 Amps, but what voltage rating can your controller take? Or is that just decided by the size of the IGBT?

What bells and whistles do other controllers have that this one is missing? (Can't program different input for forward/reverse? No high-pedal protection? Anything else?) What features will your programmable controller have that this one doesn't?

Thanks!


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## TheSGC (Nov 15, 2007)

ClintK said:


> TheSGC, thanks for all the work & sharing you're doing with designing and building a controller!
> 
> I'm considering building the controller of the schematic you posted... I saw that you have a current limiter of either 250 Amps or 500 Amps, but what voltage rating can your controller take? Or is that just decided by the size of the IGBT?
> 
> ...


 
The current limiter limits the battery amps in this design, so 250 amps should be a decent setting, and it should keep the motor amps below the max of the IGBT. The IGBT and CAPS determine the voltage. The one I built can handle up to 156 volts. (200v caps)

Now, other controllers have a higher frequency and have a better system for monitor the motor amps. I am working on that, and once I figure out how to do it affordably I will post updated schematics. My goal is to eventually have a complete schematic with part numbers for a EV.


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## jlsawell (Apr 4, 2008)

TheSGC said:


> ... once I figure out how to do it affordably I will post updated schematics. My goal is to eventually have a complete schematic with part numbers for a EV.


My hero! Looking very much forward to seeing those and building a copy. Stick it in the Wiki when finished?

By the way, is this the type of IGBT your design uses? $200 sounds a little steep, is all...


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## TheSGC (Nov 15, 2007)

jlsawell said:


> My hero! Looking very much forward to seeing those and building a copy. Stick it in the Wiki when finished?
> 
> By the way, is this the type of IGBT your design uses? $200 sounds a little steep, is all...


I used a bigger one than that. That particular one is a dual IGBT module, you only want a single to make it easier to connect. I got 4 CM600HA-24H off eBay for $75 total, so it was a sweet deal. And there are loads of them on eBay.


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## JeffD (Nov 10, 2007)

Hello,

Just a point of interest Silicon.com.au has designed a Motor Controller using 16F88 PIC and the kit is available at Jaycar, Alistronics.

Just to get some ideas.

Cheers



ga2500ev said:


> Mine is back of the envelope. With 1k resistance and estimated 3500 pF gate charge, the RC constant is 3.5 uS. It takes 5 RC times to transistion from full on to full off. So 3.5 uS x 5 = 17.5 uS.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## TheSGC (Nov 15, 2007)

Well folks, I am back to the drawing board with the controller. I did my repairs, upgraded the flywheel diode and gave it a test drive. The sucker toasted the IGBT under intense load and I found out how hard it is to stop a runaway car without power brakes. 

At least my contactors worked and cut the power when I told them too. That, and the Park and E-Brake do wonders. 

So in an hour or so I will commence an autopsy on my EV and see what happened to the controller, and make sure the coupling is ok. I may end up buying a cheap 48 volt controller just to get the EV town worthy until my disection and analysis is complete.


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## ClintK (Apr 27, 2008)

TheSGC said:


> Well folks, I am back to the drawing board with the controller. I did my repairs, upgraded the flywheel diode and gave it a test drive. The sucker toasted the IGBT under intense load and I found out how hard it is to stop a runaway car without power brakes.
> 
> At least my contactors worked and cut the power when I told them too. That, and the Park and E-Brake do wonders.
> 
> So in an hour or so I will commence an autopsy on my EV and see what happened to the controller, and make sure the coupling is ok. I may end up buying a cheap 48 volt controller just to get the EV town worthy until my disection and analysis is complete.


Sorry to hear that.  Do you think it is as simple as getting a more robust IGBT or will you need a more intense redesign?

Good luck though, a lot of people around here are pulling for ya.


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## TheSGC (Nov 15, 2007)

ClintK said:


> Sorry to hear that.  Do you think it is as simple as getting a more robust IGBT or will you need a more intense redesign?
> 
> Good luck though, a lot of people around here are pulling for ya.


I think it was actually the driving part of the IGBT. The rest of the controller seems fine, but the driver may be the problem. I will find out this weekend hopefully when I have my programmable controller proto'ed up with a proper (I hope!) IGBT driver. UCC37322 for the CM600HA-24H should work, but I am going to as the microproccessor professor at my school tomorrow and my dad is bringing my circuit to the IGBT specialist at his company to check it out.


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## Madmac (Mar 14, 2008)

As with all engineering design the devil is in the detail. Above 30 to 50 Amps the mechanical layout is as important as the electrical design. I would suspect that your IGBT failed as it was running in the linear region too much, your gate drive circuit was too slow. A clamp zener right on the gate is useful to prevent stray noise causing failure.

Using a micro adds another can of worms to deal with. Under these high dv/dt conditions the micro will crash (not might). Relying on the watchdog to recover is not a good idea. In high noise environments glitches on the power rails do not stick to data sheet values for rate of voltage change to guarantee a device does not lock up. The reset pin may not recover the device from this state, the only 100% reliable solution is to cut device power.

This assumes that you also take the basic measures of heavily filtering and clamping all the I/O lines, as well as careful mechanical layout.

Companies and individuals who design at these and greater power levels build up a selection of tried techniques to deliver reliable products. They tend not to release detailed photos of the internals or circuit diagrams that show how these tricks work.

I would suggest that the application note by Valentine from Motorola, as mentioned several times in other threads, is used a a base for design. Follow his layout ideas and the noise the control has to put up with is lower. An analog design is easier to get working than a micro in these systems.

The design has to be reliable, you cannot do a design where the failure mode will show up after a 100 hours or 500 hours by stressing components beyond their design limits for even a short period of time during noise spikes. You have seen the potential for a serious accident if the motor control fails at the wrong time.

Madmac


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## TheSGC (Nov 15, 2007)

Madmac said:


> As with all engineering design the devil is in the detail. Above 30 to 50 Amps the mechanical layout is as important as the electrical design. I would suspect that your IGBT failed as it was running in the linear region too much, your gate drive circuit was too slow. A clamp zener right on the gate is useful to prevent stray noise causing failure.
> 
> Using a micro adds another can of worms to deal with. Under these high dv/dt conditions the micro will crash (not might). Relying on the watchdog to recover is not a good idea. In high noise environments glitches on the power rails do not stick to data sheet values for rate of voltage change to guarantee a device does not lock up. The reset pin may not recover the device from this state, the only 100% reliable solution is to cut device power.
> 
> ...


I too came to the conclustion that the driver cooked the IGBT, although it didn't get about 40C in temp.

I have been reading through the application notes, and comparing them to my mircoprocessor controller design. I have been looking at the data sheets for both the CM600HA-24H and the UCC37322 and I would like your take on it's compatibility with the two. I have also been reading the data sheets for the PRX IGBT drivers (which don't seem to be available anymore) and they are only 5A drivers vs the 9A peak of the UCC37322. The UCC37322 has has better on/off times, which I would assume would be better? The UCC37322 is about 10x faster switching than the specs on the IGBT, so a 10 ohm resistor between the UCC37322 and the IGBT gate would fix that? 

I have tried searching for CM600HA-24H drivers and found nothing except a few telsa coils that used the UCC37322 and the IGBT, but not much more than that.

The processor and chips will get it's own separate power source, with all the relevant filtering caps.


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## madmike (Jul 11, 2008)

Hope you get it sorted out SGC. I've been looking at the PicOx as a basis for playing with a DIY controller, but then convert it to use a IGBT. Here's a link.

http://www.theworkshop.ca/energy/picox/4/picox4.htm

I'm collecting parts slowly to attempt a conversion, so I thought I'd play around with a DIY controller. If nothing else, It's a great learning experience.

Keep up the good work...


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## Shanex-2 (Jun 7, 2008)

TheSGC WOW that really sucks to have a failer like that. but good that your ok. I am by no means an expert in electronics and I am glad you have got the guts to keep trying to work it out so that all can benifit from your experance


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## TheSGC (Nov 15, 2007)

Shanex-2 said:


> TheSGC WOW that really sucks to have a failer like that. but good that your ok. I am by no means an expert in electronics and I am glad you have got the guts to keep trying to work it out so that all can benifit from your experance


Well, I have a update on the exact cause of the problem. I finally got the board out and found that the LM324 was burnt in half and the 555 timer also had burn marks. So I dragged it down to one of my professors asking him about a different driver and apparantly that wasn't the problem.

My flywheel diode was the problem. My lovely 800 Volt 400 AMP diode was actually a 80 volt 400 amp diode. Pretty freaking useless, and it explains why the controller worked for first 30 seconds of low throttle idling tests, and they kicked the bucket when I accelerated.


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## ga2500ev (Apr 20, 2008)

Do you have an extra IGBT laying around? They have an embedded body diode that has the same rating as the transistor. You can wire the IGBT in reverse and ground the gate so that it never conducts. It should serve as your freewheeling diode.

If not, as I posted earler IXYS has a diode that's rated just like the IGBT. You can find it here:

http://theelectrostore.com/shopsite_sc/store/html/diode-meo450-12da-ixys-meo-450-12-da-fred.html

It's probably overengineering, but at least you won't get that same event again.

Your experience has me wondering about dummy loads again. What can we use that has a similar profile as the motor but works on the bench?

ga2500ev


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## TheSGC (Nov 15, 2007)

ga2500ev said:


> Do you have an extra IGBT laying around? They have an embedded body diode that has the same rating as the transistor. You can wire the IGBT in reverse and ground the gate so that it never conducts. It should serve as your freewheeling diode.
> 
> If not, as I posted earler IXYS has a diode that's rated just like the IGBT. You can find it here:
> 
> ...


I do have a spare IGBT module. How do I ground the gate? Do I just stick a resistor between the Gate and Emitter and that do it? Or should I do something else? These are my last two IGBTs, so I don't want to toast them! (I hate waiting for things to ship!)


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## Windy (Jun 27, 2008)

HELLO The SGC, sorry about the setback, I"m trying to locate a source for the Powerex IGBT drivers too. I have found that the Mitsubishi IGBTs are suposed to be the same as the Powerex . The Mitsubishi web site is not as extensive as Powerex but they list several distributors in the US. The drivers might be available through Mitsubishi. This is one distributor that is located in the north east, Electronic Device Sales 15 Cottage St. 1R Norwood, MA. 02062 Phone 781-255-7115 Keep up the good work. I hope your latest fix is succesful. Windy


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## CPLTECH (Sep 14, 2007)

Why name brand controllers are so expensive…

Just a few examples of what manufacturers go thru before sending a reliable product to market and why they need the money they charge:

At a early 70’s seminar for TV techs I attended, one of the servicing dealers asked the instructor of a major Tenn mfg, how much it cost to manufacture a 25”TV console that sold for $600 retail, dealer cost ~$450? While he could not say officially, he heard it was around $80! I couldn’t buy a pix tube for that! But that does not include R&D and all the other expenses a business incurs. Who pays warranty? Field modifications the engineers did not anticipate? And my repair customers would give me what they called a complement by saying, “I bet you could build your own TV”. NO WAY would I attempt that.

Another aspect of design has to do with placement of individual components on the printed board. TV-radio designers are very aware of this, since they are perpetual students of the “School of Hard Knocks”. I was hired to support (among other duties) an engineer (I still respect for his knowledge) that designed in-house a board & software that ran at 1MHz piece of inspection equipment for use only at our facility. A local facility built the boards. Electrical noise was always a problem (which I attribute to component placement) and issues with double sided printed copper traces that any TV tech worth his salt would have avoided because of what he saw the TV mfg overcome. And the list goes on.

So there is a lot of grief that these controller mfg go thru so that I as a customer avoid grief (I hope) while traveling down the EV road of life.

I say some things are worth the price. Now if it didn’t take 6-8 weeks to get the replacement product…

94 S10


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## TheSGC (Nov 15, 2007)

CPLTECH said:


> Why name brand controllers are so expensive…
> 
> Just a few examples of what manufacturers go thru before sending a reliable product to market and why they need the money they charge:
> 
> ...


The funny thing is that I wasn't like "Oh SH!T I am out of control" but more like "Crap, there goes an IGBT". The short little ride was quite thrilling tho. 

I am going through the spec sheets on the driver and IGBT to validate my design, and then go through the current limiting again. My PIC controller design seems sound so far (although not tested yet) but I will be going through it again later to make sure.

My dad and I am thinking of getting a 96 volt controller just to get the EV running until I get a finalized and abused design.


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## gerd1022 (Jun 9, 2008)

hello,

i am also working on building a controller for those same igbts. I am using the driver found here: http://www.platan.ru/pdf/datasheets/isahaya/vla500_01.pdf

i am just copying the application circuit shown in the datasheet. I found the driver at rell.com for about $40. if it works, i will post the board design. i think part of the problem may be that it is recommended that the driver actively pull the gate charge out of the gate with a negative voltage. also, the application circuit has a bunch of safety features built in.

who knows, im a ME not an EE, but i hope it will work.


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## madmike (Jul 11, 2008)

I'm thinking of using the M57962L gate driver (~$20) using the booster circuit described in this link.

http://www.hy-line.de/fileadmin/hy-.../dokumente/applikationshinweise/usinggate.pdf

another link for reading.
http://www.mitsubishichips.com/Global/files/manuals/powermos4_0.pdf


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## ga2500ev (Apr 20, 2008)

And where can one find these M57962L gate drivers?

Update: never mind. Newark Electronics has them for $25 each. Here's the page:

http://www.newark.com/73K1974/semiconductors-integrated-circuits/product.us0?sku=powerex-m57962l

Seems like it may be worth investing into...

Excellent applications note.

ga2500ev


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## madmike (Jul 11, 2008)

ga2500ev said:


> And where can one find these M57962L gate drivers?
> 
> Excellent applications note.
> 
> ga2500ev


Here for $15.82

http://catalog.rell.com/rellecom/scripts/SkuPage.asp?SKU=4939&PNO=&PNM=

or for $18.30

http://www.galco.com/scripts/cgiip.exe/wa/wcat/itemdtl.r?listtype=Catalog&pnum=M57962L-PRX


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## TheSGC (Nov 15, 2007)

I have been reading through docs on the CM600HA-24H, and the recommended driver by PRX is only a 5A peak, but the odd thing is that they want a 2.1-22 ohm resistor between the driver and the IGBT gate, making the driving requirements on 1.5 AMPs peak. 

I talked to one of my professors about it and he said that the large module will use < 0.04 amps most of the time and the UCC37322 will work just nicely with it.


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## Windy (Jun 27, 2008)

I"ve been doing some looking online and found that Richardson Electronics has in stock the Powerex developement kit that contains the IGBT driver the PCB that mounts on the module and the DC-DC convertor. The kit comes with a small parts list that is required to populate the board. The kit is BG1A-KA at $42.29. There are other kits listed .The powerex web site gives the Specs. to match the drivers with the IGBT. the BG1-A driver will drive up to a 1200 Amp module. I hope this Info. will help someone.


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## gerd1022 (Jun 9, 2008)

i tried very hard to get someone to sell me that development kit, but nowhere has it. i talked to richardson, but all the ones they have in stock are promised to a customer, i even lied a little and said it was for an oem application... (well not really lied, my boss thinks of my car as a prototype for a possible conversion service)

anyway, the M sieres driver is from what i can tell the old version, the vla one that i posted is the newer version. The application note is a lot like the development kit...


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## ga2500ev (Apr 20, 2008)

TheSGC said:


> I have been reading through docs on the CM600HA-24H, and the recommended driver by PRX is only a 5A peak, but the odd thing is that they want a 2.1-22 ohm resistor between the driver and the IGBT gate, making the driving requirements on 1.5 AMPs peak.
> 
> I talked to one of my professors about it and he said that the large module will use < 0.04 amps most of the time and the UCC37322 will work just nicely with it.


Take a look at the app note that madmike posted. It indicates a peak current that's required for 2 uS. It's dependent on the module and the max current through it. For the 1200V modules at 600A they outline using a booster transistor pair that can sling 20A of current into the gate for short periods of time.

They also have the resistor calcs in there too. For the large 1200V IGBTs they say that the gate resistance is 0.75 ohms. At 18V that means that 24A of current can be used.

The gate movement current is the critical value that you need to design for.

Take a read of the app note for more details.

ga2500ev


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## TheSGC (Nov 15, 2007)

ga2500ev said:


> Take a look at the app note that madmike posted. It indicates a peak current that's required for 2 uS. It's dependent on the module and the max current through it. For the 1200V modules at 600A they outline using a booster transistor pair that can sling 20A of current into the gate for short periods of time.
> 
> They also have the resistor calcs in there too. For the large 1200V IGBTs they say that the gate resistance is 0.75 ohms. At 18V that means that 24A of current can be used.
> 
> ...


OK, from reading those two data sheets and the recommended driving from PRX, I have come to the conclusion that gate drive AMPS is related to frequency, you need at least a 2.1 OHM resistor between the driver and IGBT gate (10 ohm in case of the UCC37322 to get the timing right) and keep that whole system mounted to the IGBT. With all that in mind, I have found that using a 14-15 volt source, the peak amps needed would only be 1.4 AMPs. The 0.75 ohm resistor is to balance parallel gates, but in reality PRX/Mitshubishi says a 2.1 ohm Rg is the minimum.

Unless I am missing something. I also have found some working schematics the use the UCC3722 with a CM600HA-24H with a Tesla Coil setup that seems to be on part with EV usuage. Although an EV uses a much lower frequency.


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## popeye2008 (May 17, 2008)

I got two BG1A-prx (gate driver board) and two M57962L-PRX from Galco.com
I had to get the power supply chips from Atlantic Components Atcomhq.com. I had to buy two BG2B-KA kits just to get the two VLA106-15242. The VLA106-15242 replaces the M57145L. I'm using two of the CM600HA-24H transistors. These were hard to find especially the the VLA106-15242(s).
Hope this helps.


Be wary of the quantities that suppliers say they have on hand. I talked to several on the phone and found they did not have them and they were on back order, some time has now passed and that may have changed, call first.


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## Madmac (Mar 14, 2008)

> I have come to the conclusion that gate drive AMPS is related to frequency, you need at least a 2.1 OHM resistor between the driver and IGBT gate (10 ohm in case of the UCC37322 to get the timing right) and keep that whole system mounted to the IGBT.


The peak current is sourced / sunk on switching the device and is constant. The static gate current is very low. As you increase switching frequency the average current will increase, it will scale with frequency. To supply the peak current good quality low ESR capacitors are needed on the power rails, close to the drivers with wide tracks.

The value of the gate resistor is difficult to determine by design. It is needed to control the rate of turn on / turn off. If the edges are too fast they will cause the inductance of the gate plus circuitry to ring. This can cause the gate to turn on / off several times before settling on. It can also cause the device to fail ( over time) if the ringing voltage is higher than Vge. This is one reason it is a good idea to put a clamp diode right across the IGBT pins, The only way of checking for ringing is with careful measurement using a scope. Secondly it allows a small amount of control over the DV/DT of the switched voltage to help control interferance.

Layout the gate drive circuitry for minium inductance.

You can take advantage of ringing and device inductance to drive the IGBT from a 5 volt rail....difficult to do and get right.

MAdmac


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## madmike (Jul 11, 2008)

TheSGC said:


> I also have found some working schematics the use the UCC37322 with a CM600HA-24H with a Tesla Coil setup that seems to be on part with EV usuage. Although an EV uses a much lower frequency.


Do you have a link to those schematics? I'm about to order some parts, so I was gonna grab a few to play with too...

Hows the car coming?


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## TheSGC (Nov 15, 2007)

madmike said:


> Do you have a link to those schematics? I'm about to order some parts, so I was gonna grab a few to play with too...
> 
> Hows the car coming?


Here is the link to the page with the schematics. http://www.future-technologies.co.uk/IMPULSE/newcoilprog/

(It even uses a 555 timer!, but has no current limiting)

As for the car, I have been spending most of my time with school work. Since reality has set in, and the pressure to get the EV done fast, I have decided to suck it up and buy a temporary controller. (Hopefully with the help of my parents and bro who don't want to wait anymore) While my design is done on paper, I don't have the proper heatsinks, buss bars and time to build it. And then code it. Most of it has been placed on a protoboard, but I need to get an oscillator to check the ringing of the UCC37322 and IGBT.


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## madmike (Jul 11, 2008)

I just decided to order the BG1A PCB with the ML57962L Gate Driver and the VLA106-15242 DC-DC from Galco. (Shipping was a bit high for such small parts.) I can grab the rest of the parts from Digikey and have a good basis for a DIY IGBT Controller. Then I can play with the rest of it...

Is there a good way to test controllers without a motor?


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## Shanex-2 (Jun 7, 2008)

WOW I have missed alot (had repair my computer it has been down for two weeks) . so much info so little time . Good luck to all who are building there own controller.


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## TheSGC (Nov 15, 2007)

madmike said:


> I just decided to order the BG1A PCB with the ML57962L Gate Driver and the VLA106-15242 DC-DC from Galco. (Shipping was a bit high for such small parts.) I can grab the rest of the parts from Digikey and have a good basis for a DIY IGBT Controller. Then I can play with the rest of it...
> 
> Is there a good way to test controllers without a motor?


The only way to truly test a controller is with a motor. 

I have been going over the 555 controller again, and making small edits. Also the UCC37322 is supposed to work perfectly fine with the CM600HA-24H as long as there is a 10 ohm resistor between the UCC37322 and IGBT gate. 

The CM600HA-24H can use up to 12 AMPs on the gate, but that is only at 25KHz. Using 16KHz, like most EV controllers, the gate has a peak AMP usuage of 4.5 AMPs. I now have to find a 15 volt 10 amp dc to dc converter to cover peak currents of the IGBT and controller components. Running the IGBT at 12 volts gate drive will cause it to go linear at about 250 AMPs and toast before you can do anything about it. 

So as it stands right now I have a complete schematic of a 555 timer based controller with current limiting on the battery side, but I won't post it until I give it another go through and get everything labeled.


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## madmike (Jul 11, 2008)

Well keep us posted on your progress and updates. I'm going to be playing with the 555, MC33033, and some pic based pwm sides for my controller. Im also gonna grab the UCC37322 to play with it too.

I guess I'll find something like a golf cart motor to play with, since I haven't had much luck finding a forklift motor. Maybe use it to make a trike like a bug-e.


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## popeye2008 (May 17, 2008)

I was wondering if this is OK to do. My controller will need three different voltages supplied to it run; 5 12 and 15. If I use three linear or switching regulators and wire their inputs in series and run them off the main pack will each regulator see one third of the pack voltage and function properly? Assuming of course the regulators are rated to handle one third of the pack voltage at it's highest voltage. Thanks in advance


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## TheSGC (Nov 15, 2007)

popeye2008 said:


> I was wondering if this is OK to do. My controller will need three different voltages supplied to it run; 5 12 and 15. If I use three linear or switching regulators and wire their inputs in series and run them off the main pack will each regulator see one third of the pack voltage and function properly? Assuming of course the regulators are rated to handle one third of the pack voltage at it's highest voltage. Thanks in advance


You have to keep the those voltages isolated from the pack, or else the pack will short it's way through the controller. When you cut into the pack like that, you actually create more "grounds" for the high voltage to go to, killing your homemade goodies.

So either get a separate 24 volt battery source, or find a step up dc-dc converter for a 12 to 15 volt so you can use your AUX battery.


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## Shanex-2 (Jun 7, 2008)

hey MADMIKE what thread is there for building the mc33033 or the pic based controller? for those interested in building there own cotroller.


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## madmike (Jul 11, 2008)

http://www.finitesite.com/d3jsys/ev-controller/

http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showthread.php?t=18698&highlight=mc33033


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## Shanex-2 (Jun 7, 2008)

perfect thanks MADMIKE


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## Shanex-2 (Jun 7, 2008)

TheSGC how is your other controller working? Have you made any more progress on your 555 basced controller?


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## TheSGC (Nov 15, 2007)

Shanex-2 said:


> TheSGC how is your other controller working? Have you made any more progress on your 555 basced controller?


I have made some more design progress, but I haven't finished the schematic yet. I have my PIC controller on the protoboard and I have to get an oscilliscope to see how it's working. The 555 controller has a few changes with the IGBT driver, but it will probably be a while before I can protoboard it. 

Hopefully I can get access to an oscilliscope at school, and I will be searching eBay for one because it is a necessary piece of equipment for controller design and electronic circuits.


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## Shanex-2 (Jun 7, 2008)

well TheSGC I wish you luck on finding one. From what I've seen they are pricey. 
I decided to get the book -MOTOR CONTROL ELECTRONICS HANDBOOK
by Richard Valentine WOW does this thing have info in it on almost any type of electric motor controller and although it will take me some time to understand all of it I would recommend it for anyone interested in motor control.


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## Shanex-2 (Jun 7, 2008)

well it has been awhile since I started reading the book and I do have a slightly better idea of how motor controllers work but still no where near enough to finish my controller . So I have wondered if anyone else has gotten anywhere with theres . I do have a question though TheSGC why do you use pin 7 to controll the gate driver instead of pin 3 one the 555 IC chip? Anything I have seen being powered with the 555 uses pin3 to actuated something.


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## TheSGC (Nov 15, 2007)

Shanex-2 said:


> well it has been awhile since I started reading the book and I do have a slightly better idea of how motor controllers work but still no where near enough to finish my controller . So I have wondered if anyone else has gotten anywhere with theres . I do have a question though TheSGC why do you use pin 7 to controll the gate driver instead of pin 3 one the 555 IC chip? Anything I have seen being powered with the 555 uses pin3 to actuated something.


What I did was a I went online and found three different 555 timer setups. Then I found one with the best duty cycle and used that. I can't take credit for the actual timing circuit, but only the modifications to make it work at the right frequency and as a motor controller. 

As for getting anywhere, that would be a yes and no. I still don't have a scope yet, but I have a design that looks good to all the EEs I give it too, I just need to find the time to build it. I am actually working on a smaller, PIC based controller as a modular design.


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## Shanex-2 (Jun 7, 2008)

THANK YOU for clerifying that for me TheSGC . I hope your pic controller does well . Do you know of a website that goes in depth into the 555 and all its configureations ?


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## ga2500ev (Apr 20, 2008)

Shanex,

As versitile as the 555 is for timing, building a controller around it will be limiting on a bunch of levels. Truthfully a microcontroller is a jellybean part in today's world. It will give to the flexibility to dynamically tailor the setup for your needs.

In terms of a controller, the PWM generator is probably the last thing you need to worry about. I'm glad you resurrected this thread so that I could review the issues involved.

Since you've been reading, tell us what you learned about the other end of the controller: the power electronics end. Have you settled on an IGBT or MOSFETs? What about your caps? Or you freewheeling diode? What driver do you plan to use and how are you configuring the power supply to drive it?

Those are the critical design issues. Any insight there?

ga2500ev


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## Shanex-2 (Jun 7, 2008)

basicly I'm in way over my head as far as electronics go.I can fabricate and do very well with the mechanical end of things but It will take me awhile to realy get my head around electronics . As far as the timer set up goes I decided to work with lower voltages and smaller motors (like my electric craftsman tractor) befor I try my hand at a homemade car controller. I'm still having trouble just understanding how TheSGC 's trigger circuit works without shorting strait to ground when power is applied to the base, is one normally on and the other normally off ?


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## 9852 (Jan 17, 2010)

TheSGC said:


> Ok, here is the schematics you all have been waiting for!
> 
> Also, I did not put the flywheel diode on the schematics, but just FYI it is composed of two RadioShack 1N5404, and the postive end goes on the positive motor connection, and the negative goes on the negeative motor connection, in the usual freewheel fasion.
> 
> ...


hi, thesgc, did you ever get this 555 circuit updated, or is it good the way you have it? im looking for a basic controll circuit for an electric scooter, and would like to try this one.


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## feniks (Jan 18, 2012)

Have you made any more progress on your 555 basced controller?


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## Gary B (Jun 2, 2011)

Shanex-2 said:


> High everyone I have been reviewing the motor controller threads and am wondering if it is feasible to drive multiple mosfets (40 IRF640 mosfets yes it is alot) off of a 555 IC to get the amperage needed and voltage required to run a seires dc motor @144 volts. Could you use a single IRF640 (200 volts and 18 amps each )as a driver or would that many mosfets eat up as much power as a single igbt ? And why are commercial motor controllers so complicated in the first place?


 Hello Shanex-2. - I went back to your original post (a long time ago). - 
I was going the same 555 route on the front end of my own home made controller when I found the LM3524DN (IC Regulator PWM switcher 16 pin DIP) - It was cheap and simple and I moved to that rather than the 555s. - (Good move). - It works great with my Hall effect throttle as an input. I then searched for some MOSFETs and found the *IXFX230N20T MOSFET with the help of another member here. I plan on using 5 each of them. Aimed at 144 v 500 amp controller. - The Open Revolt controller seems to address the power output section of the controller pretty well. (I am substituting my own MOSFET selection.). - (Haven’t finished with mine yet.) - I am not using a microcontroller on the front end here, as some have, including Open Revolt. - Just fumbling my own way so far. - Just some ideas here. - Good luck on your project. Gary B.*


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## DJBecker (Nov 3, 2010)

Holy Necropost! This is a ancient thread...

A controller based around a 555 timer is a non-starter. It's not an acceptable chip for generating 0%-100% pulses, independent of the need for other features.

The clear way to build a motor controller is with microprocessor control. It's possible to build a controller with only discrete control parts, but it would be painful to include even a few of the most important features. Yes, for many features (e.g. high pedal lockout, lower current limits with heat, reduced power with reverse, RPM cap, temperature compensation, minimum pulse width, avoiding 99% PWM) you could theorize a discrete circuit to add the enhancement. But you would end up with a complex mess.

Yes, designers did build complex things before microcontrollers. Automatic transmissions with fluid logic circuits were amazing things. (They still switched to microcontrollers as soon as they could.) But some things just can't be done well without real computations -- carburetors never even came close to being 'right'.


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