# Converting Pulling Tractor, Cub KA Zap and Something Different.



## Jimdear2 (Oct 12, 2008)

*I am not sure how to place pictures in the text yet so I placed them as attachments with refs in the test *
The pulling tractor conversion. Cub KA – Zap and Something Different

I’m finally ready to start on the conversions. I’m hoping that you more experienced people will look this over and may see a potential problem or can offer suggestions to make these tractors more competitive. Got to put a good face on electrics.

I’ve got planning done to about 90%
Parts and components acquisitions is at about 80%
Conversion work and preparation done to about 15% 
Health about 75% and improving 

Below are the donors as I had to leave them last fall

http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showthread.php/attachment.php?attachmentid=2633&d=1236625029
*Pictures 1, 2 and 3* 

The workshop roof went last fall so I had to put things aside over the winter, But spring is springing, daylight savings time is saving time, so now I can get something started (would have last weekend except for the rain). Going to put up a canopy this week and finish pulling the ICE out of the rear engine ultra light.

The D&D motor will go into the ultra light just about where you see the ICE. There is a wood stake box that mounts across the back that will hold the batteries and control boxes.

I worked in the basement this winter when the temp down there was 45° F or better and built, pre wired and proof ran the control system enclosure and motor set up.

I started with a small metal box that I removed the back from and replaced with a section of heat sink. The Alltrax AXE 7245 was mounted to the heat sink. The remaining opening has a piece of ½ inch thick plastic that will be drilled to pass the power cables and control wiring through. The red button in the upper left of the box is Albright’s new SD200 combo contactor/emergency disconnect.

* Pictures 4 and 5*

The two relays, tachometer, shift light and the proximity sensor you see are a motor runaway stopper system. When the shift light setting is reached the light triggers the contactor to shutdown the motor. We are still working on a stall out shut down, but the room is allotted in the box. The tachometer also has max RPM recall. This along with the data logging and adjustability of the Alltrax I should have some good numbers for tuning in the tractors.

The SD200 is set up to allow pre charge when the disconnect button is up and the key switch is off. It allows no pre charge when the button is down. Pre charge is not needed when the key switch is on because the contactor is closed. Still thinking about a key on delay just in case I forget, but it will take me about 15 seconds to pull the disconnect on, then get into the seat, reach, and turn on the key switch and hook up the body tether so I should be ok. The small light you see at the top of the box will warn me if the key switch is on and the disconnect is open. I think I have it all covered. The Key on circuit will also have a charging port interlock, a safety breakaway from the sled switch and a final body tether switch., I’ll be using Curtis FB 6 throttle pedal assemblies I got a good price on. I plan on 1 or 0 AWG cable, I would like to use 1/0 or 2/0 but weight and cost are starting to enter into this. A pull only lasts for 15 to 20 seconds so heat may not be a real problem when limited to 400 or so amps, I’ll also be force air cooling the motor and box/heat sink with filtered air, See below for the need for filtered air.

* Picture 6*

The actual motor installation should go smoothly because the trans coupler, bearings and such are all done for the ICE and useable with the electric. All I have to do is bolt the motor to the plate, clamp the plate to an existing conveniently placed cross member align with dial gauges and weld. It worked well with the ICE, should be ok for the Motor.

I got lucky on batteries, someone gave me a lot (50+) of old 16 amp hour Hawkers AGMs (thanks Bob). With a lot of charging, watering, discharging and cycling I was able to get enough batteries with at least 85 - 90% capacity to build a traction pack of 3 parallel strings of 6. These should get me through testing without a big battery expense till I prove the concept . . . Or Not. If it goes well then LifePO is in my future.

* Picture 7*

Motor power, gearing, tire size and weight are all favorable to allow the tractor to be competitive in a 1200 pound class for tractors with 500-800 cc motorcycle engines.

If they won’t let me run with the others because it, well, wins. Well, the tractor originally was built as a rear engine to do wheelies, I can always go back to that for fun and exibition.

The Cub Cadet is going to be a pretty straight forward conversion. It has a horizontal shaft drive into a 3 speed transaxle with input reduction gearing on the fron of the transaxle. 3 - 4000 rpm input is normal. Other then the electric drive, the pulling aspects of a Cub Cadet are well understood and most competitive components are available. There will be batteries under the seats and just forward of the tires under the footboards, Motor in front in about stock location (I’m writing rules for conversion electrics) No more then 48 volts with a 6.7 – 7.0 inch diameter motor. Tractor total weight, length, width and tire size about the same as the 0-12 hp classes.

I’ll be running a Prestolite rebuilt Hi Low motor with approximately the same control configuration as my ultra light but with a standard SW200 contactor and a ED 200 disconnect, FP 6 throttle and 4 ea 40 lbs AGM C-D high rate discharge batteries and 12 x 12 x 26 inch pulling tires. 

*Picture 8* 

Darin, the other person building a electric puller will be running the Advanced DC motor out of his drag bike. He will be using smaller more aggressive tread tires, His motor is bigger but voltage limited. My motor smaller but over volted, bothe with 450 amp controllers at 48 volts. Should make for some competitive and fun pulling.

I’ll be posting smaller excerpts as I progress. 

Just for Fun, I’m dreaming what 2 warp 9‘s and a lot of LIfePO would do in place of the two 120 HP V4’s In my double engine puller. 

*Picture 9*

Have fun, Be well


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## Jimdear2 (Oct 12, 2008)

I know this is not as interesting to some of you as an EV conversion, but I'm just as proud of it and want to brag just as much as you guys.

*Ultralight;*
Well I finally had good weather, felt good and had help all at the same time.

We got the ultralight's ICE out and stripped out all of the unnecessary fuel system wiring, cables and hydraulic lines. 

Started measuring in the motor mounts and drive shaft/coupler for the ultralight. Looks like I just have to cut down one of the old driveshafts and have a sprocket bored to 2 inch and weld it into postion on the coupler shaft. The motor is going to be a dream to mount.

Have been using the bad weather to go buying things like wood for the new utility box, the 18 Hawker Oddessy 16ah batteries will go under that. 

*Cub Cadet;*
I finally got the steering box rebuilt, found a decent steering wheel, relocated the front suspension forward 4 inches and built the extendible front weight bar. I finished up the adjustible hitch and the wheelie bar wheels. 

I have been working on the battery rack/fender/footboard mount. There will be two under the seat and two under the footboards. I'm using Hi Rate 40ah AGMs

Just got the final pieces I need for the heavy duty driveshaft and support.

Loks like the only major component I need for both tractors is battery cable and lugs.

*General;*
Bought one of those new hydraulic crimpers from Harbor Freight for 49.95 that will do crimps up to 00 wire. Works out because I had planned on using 00 in both tractors. 

http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=66150

I'll report on how well the crimper works

Just might make the first pull in June with both tractors.


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## fishguts (Dec 19, 2008)

Awesome, man! I find this really interesting. Seems to me since electric motors are real torquey in the first place they should be ideal for a puller.

Keep it up (the front wheels, that is)!


And thanks for the crimping tool link.



I miss Art Arfons and the Green Monster .....


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## Jimdear2 (Oct 12, 2008)

Finally got back to work on the cub cadet in between rainstorms. Three days out of four have been rainy or the humidity was so high I couldn't breath.

Finished up the battery racks and started on fit and position of the components. 

The motor and drive train have had a rough alignment and I will make the final mounts and position the motor the first dry day this week.

I am going to mount the plastic sheet and the components you see laying on the hood onto a rack that will go under the hood. This area will be presurized with filtered air. The filtered exhaust air from the compartment will then pass over a heat sink attached to the bottom of the Alltrax Controller. There will also be Curtis 12 SOC and 48 volt SOC meters and multimeter on a rack with the leads so you can probe locations. All ythois will be inside the pressurized component box.

The fan you see will draw air through an air filter placed in the grill opening and clean air will be ducted to the motor and component box for cooling.

You can see the Main Disconnect mounted in the console. The HV circuit will be battery most positive, main fuse, disconnect then contactor and motor and controller. Ir's an Albright ED200. there is a 3 position Allen Bradley switch that will be mounted in the hole in the console to the right of the disconnect. That switch will have Position 1 OFF, Position 2 Precharge and Position 3 ON.

The 5 inch recording tach with a settable shift light goes on the right side of the console below the steering wheel. The tach shift light circuit will operate the motor runaway circuit that will shut down the motor if something in the drivetrain breaks.

We will start on the low voltage wiring next week end. (My wife likes to do that). I'm still working on the High voltage wiring. 

The rear 8.00 x 12 x 23 tires and wheels you see will be replaced with 12 x 12 x 26 on aluminum wheels (Have the wheels, waiting on tires), For now I'll keep the wide soft front tires, at least till I see how much weight I'll need to carry on the extendible weight bar to keep the front end down.

All in all we are on schedule to do first drive in mid May and first Pull in early June.

The Ultra Light puller has had a lot of the work already done as modules over the winter and since it is so big and open there are is no complicated construction. We should do first drive at the end of May.

Paint and pretty (other than a quicky sand and prime) will wait until I'm done changing and breaking things.

I'll keep you posted. And do a video of the first pulls.


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## m38mike (Dec 27, 2008)

Jim,
Where's the speakers and CD player for that great, big-engine roar to thrill the crowd?  Hey, this is a cool machine. I hope you'll get some video up on youtube when you get it running. I'd love to see it make the dirt fly.


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## Jimdear2 (Oct 12, 2008)

m38mike said:


> Jim,
> Where's the speakers and CD player for that great, big-engine roar to thrill the crowd?  Hey, this is a cool machine. I hope you'll get some video up on youtube when you get it running. I'd love to see it make the dirt fly.


Mike,
Actually I have been considering the sound of a big electric arc  or maybe the Flubber Sound from the movie.

At night the electric arc sound with a flashing strobe would be real cool.

I should have lots of fun with this thing being real quiet. I even thought of mounting pedals on it and just pump away while it was moving. But I'm 65 with COPD and that would be a young mans joke.

I hope to take a few videos of the cub cadet and the rear motor Ultralight as soon as the first move near the middle of May and at the first pull after the first part of June. I'll post them to YouTube as soon as I can


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## Harold in CR (Sep 8, 2008)

This is a neat thread. Thanks for taking so much time to post it, AND helping the others. 

I can build most anything, but, send smoke signals around electronics.


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## DIYguy (Sep 18, 2008)

Looking good Jim. I was involved with tractor pulling many years ago (6000 lb eco class) and it was a lot of fun. I use to really enjoy watching these little guys pull. Electric drive is well suited to this application. Keep that wheel speed up!

Gary


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## Jimdear2 (Oct 12, 2008)

DIYguy said:


> Looking good Jim. I was involved with tractor pulling many years ago (6000 lb eco class) and it was a lot of fun. I use to really enjoy watching these little guys pull. Electric drive is well suited to this application. Keep that wheel speed up!
> 
> Gary


Gary I plan on tossing a lot of dirt with these things.

I'm a city bred hot rod guy. I've always wanted to pull mods, but just couldn't afford the price of the ticket. These little ultralight super modifieds have all of the fun and figureing that goes with the big stuff without the $100,000 price tag. My double engine was built for under $6,000

The garden tractor I'm converting is just to help start a class. Going to call it 1000 pound 48 volt conversion garden tractor. I've pretty much finished the rules and will publish them with the local clubs.

An EV guy with an electric drag bike got the bug so is also building another cub cadet so we can compete against each other and help each other.

The rear engine ultra light puller was always a kind of exibition tractor, I built it for my wife just so she could do wheelies (it would still place 2nd ot 3rd though). It was a lot of fun until the engine crapped out.

Now with a 72 volt 450 amp setup to start out I will have twice the torque at near the same rpm as the old 750 V4 Honda. If I can keep the voltage up to keep the wheel speed where I need it the tractor should be awsome.

AND QUIET. I am thinking about playing a recording of a big electric arc (or maybe the Flubber sound) while its running, just for fun.

Have a great one,


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## DIYguy (Sep 18, 2008)

hey Jim, 
I'm a farm boy who grew up driving old Farmall's and Cockshutts.... lol Say, I always had this idea with the pulling tractor tires. A conventional tractor tire track makes a "V" look as it tracks away from you. The reason for this is to self clean the heavy tread in mud for better traction. As you know, pulling tractors have most of the rubber shaved off of the large tread protrusion and the guys make a rather sharp edge out of what is left. At least this is what they use to do... I'm not sure if they make purpose built tires for this now or not. But, here was my thought.... 
Since these tires will never be in deep mud and need self cleaning.... also high wheel speed is the key to getting further down that track... why not actually mount the tires "backwards" and shave them off this way so the "V" actually looks inverted as you look at the tracks when they go away from you. If you haven't gotten totally lost by my rambling... the point would be to get better grip by forcing the "engaged soil" underfoot so to speak... inwards, more under the tire towards the center than expelling it outwards. The tire speed self cleans it anyways and as you know, the pulling tracks are dry and make lots of clouds...

Maybe no one ever wanted to risk ruining a pair of tires to try it... I dunno. Or maybe someone has by now...????

Just a thought....


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## Jimdear2 (Oct 12, 2008)

DIYguy said:


> hey Jim,
> I'm a farm boy who grew up driving old Farmall's and Cockshutts.... lol Say, I always had this idea with the pulling tractor tires. A conventional tractor tire track makes a "V" look as it tracks away from you. The reason for this is to self clean the heavy tread in mud for better traction. As you know, pulling tractors have most of the rubber shaved off of the large tread protrusion and the guys make a rather sharp edge out of what is left. At least this is what they use to do... I'm not sure if they make purpose built tires for this now or not. But, here was my thought....
> Since these tires will never be in deep mud and need self cleaning.... also high wheel speed is the key to getting further down that track... why not actually mount the tires "backwards" and shave them off this way so the "V" actually looks inverted as you look at the tracks when they go away from you. If you haven't gotten totally lost by my rambling... the point would be to get better grip by forcing the "engaged soil" underfoot so to speak... inwards, more under the tire towards the center than expelling it outwards. The tire speed self cleans it anyways and as you know, the pulling tracks are dry and make lots of clouds...
> 
> ...


I'v seen it tried.

What I saw happen is the Vee pulls the dirt into the center, compacting it(remember the tire is spinning faster then ground speed) builds a big wad and lifts the tire off the ground the tire is crowned so you loose traction and worst case you start bouncing . . . OUCH - OUCH - OUCH (no suspension and a steel seat)

With the vee the other way the dirt is expelled outward from under the tire for thrust and the tire digs down.

If a reversed chevron would have worked that way old Fred Firestone would have build them like that. History says he tried just about everything before he settled on the 23° staggered chevron.


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## DIYguy (Sep 18, 2008)

Jimdear2 said:


> I'v seen it tried.
> 
> What I saw happen is the Vee pulls the dirt into the center, compacting it(remember the tire is spinning faster then ground speed) builds a big wad and lifts the tire off the ground the tire is crowned so you loose traction


Ya, I can see that happening....


Jimdear2 said:


> and worst case you start bouncing . . . OUCH - OUCH - OUCH (no suspension and a steel seat)


I've seen a lot of severe bouncing at tractor pulls with the regular tire direction too...including a double V 24 cylinder (Merlin or Fairey??) that bounced the draw chain off and he thanked the lord he had a kill tether. He still almost ended up having tea with the audience. 



Jimdear2 said:


> If a reversed chevron would have worked that way old Fred Firestone would have build them like that. History says he tried just about everything before he settled on the 23° staggered chevron.


yes, of course.... as it was for slow moving wheels and has stood the test of time. Most have a fair bit of calcium/water for weight and traction also... at least they use to...??

It's pretty kewl that you are working on a new class of pullers too Jim. It will lead the way for lots of fun for many folks down the road. Maybe you should do a real big electric puller. I have two old Reliance DC motors out in the shop... they must weigh 350+ lbs each.... a pair of those would be interesting in a tractor....heck one of em would be a brute......


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## Jimdear2 (Oct 12, 2008)

DIYguy said:


> Ya, I can see that happening....
> 
> I've seen a lot of severe bouncing at tractor pulls with the regular tire direction too...including a double V 24 cylinder (Merlin or Fairey??) that bounced the draw chain off and he thanked the lord he had a kill tether. He still almost ended up having tea with the audience. ......


I've been unlucky enough to be caught up in one of those bouncing events, you know how a damp track can change at twilite at the dew point. It got real sticky and I got lazy and didnt re-organize my weight distribution and tire pressure. I say again OUCH - OUCH - OUCH (no suspension and a steel seat)



DIYguy said:


> yes, of course.... as it was for slow moving wheels and has stood the test of time. Most have a fair bit of calcium/water for weight and traction also... at least they use to...??


They still do. I'm in a small farm community and used to help out at the local tire store, man those suckers get heavy.



DIYguy said:


> It's pretty kewl that you are working on a new class of pullers too Jim. It will lead the way for lots of fun for many folks down the road.


With all the electric stuff starting to come around I thought it was time. People have pulled the old GE Electracks and done well so I thought it was time to make it make it a little more organized. 

Plus when I started asking about it around the clubs I got weird looks and a lot of "It Won't Work". Thems fighten words for me.

I also mow about 5 acres ans I'm tired of the noise, stink and maintenance.



DIYguy said:


> Maybe you should do a real big electric puller. I have two old Reliance DC motors out in the shop... they must weigh 350+ lbs each.... a pair of those would be interesting in a tractor....heck one of em would be a brute......


Just so happens I was building a three motorcycle engine tractor when my health went. (12 cylinders at 12000 rpm, sweet sound)

The frame is done and it has (still in parts on the shelf) a 9 inch Ford with a 6.5:1 open diff and Moser 33 spline axles. A beefed power glide with 3500 stall converter.

Either a direct drive big slow turning single monster motor, that big Kostov looks good there, or maybe multiple high reveing small motors through the converter and glide. Maybe some of Jim Husted's magic WOOPEE.

The BIG stopper right now is getting enough battery capacity and voltage into an 1800 pound package. I'll look again as LiFePO4 gets a little cheaper.

It would have to compete against 5-600 HP small block V8's or Motorcycle multi motors. It could be done but it would be expensive.

Keep on dreaming.


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## Jimdear2 (Oct 12, 2008)

This weekend wasn't quite so productive all though I did reach a milestone. I did the *WOOHOO* obligatory 12 volt turn the transmission test Saturday night. It works

Got a great start.

Picked up my 1/0 HV wire and lugs and started building cables Friday night for the ultralight 18 Hawker battery set, I needed to to see if I could fit batteries into the place I wanted to and cable them. When the layout worked out on the benchtop, I went out and made the first battery battery rack, so far so good.

Started building the quick change seat mounts for the Cub Cadet seat. Then, things started to go to h**l.

First the kid shows up to start mowing the grass (5 acres of it) and I find that the new Husky tractor has a dead cylinder in it's Briggs engine. So we drag out the old tractor find a battery and get it running again, track down belts and finally the kid stars cutting.

Then the parts to fix the three point lift on the Fordson Super Major finally came back. So we are off to getting that back together. Finally the three point works again. So we go to hook up the brush hog only to find that the last user (not me) must have hit something because the gear box was loose. So another few hours to fix that. 

So now I'm back to the Cub Cadet late Saturday, I finish up the seat mount. Worked out really nice. I can flip up the seat to get to the battery connections to check them and the seat pivot retaining clips. The seat will stay dry when flipped up and I can change over to the flat panel seat from the comfort seat in about 30 seconds. 

The new heat sink came in the Saturday mail, so I started on the component box that will fit under the hood. I get the plastic cut and the mounting rails and heat sink mounted to the plastic, of course the metal I bought for the mounting rails is 2 inches too short to complete the job.

I think that someone in hardware marketing somewhere must have a formula that tells them that a precut piece X inches long from their racks will always be too short for any project.

Anyway, I semi complete thhe component box and decide to make the wheels turn. I drive a pin into the rear coupler and put the chain on the front coupler. Then I make a new cable for the bursh to field jumper. Then I find some jumper cables and it works.

Sunday morning and I hurt so bad I can't move. Time to take a day off. So when the kid comes over in the afternoon, I just put him to mowing. At the end of the day he forgets to let the old tractor idle for a bit before he turns it off and the motor after runs and kicks back. Every time it does that it bends a push rod and this time it bent a valve.

So I'm taking today off to try to get one of them running befor the grass get away from me.

Here are some pictures of where I'm at.


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## Jimdear2 (Oct 12, 2008)

It's been a while since I was last able to get right down and accomplish something on the tractors. I would do a bit here and their but nothing big. 

Had to spend a lot of time on both of the ICE garden tractors we use to cut grass around here. More bent pushrods and broken mower deck bearings. And of course I ned to get some work done for the Boss (both the one at home and the one at work)

Got back to the tractors with a vengence this last week. Got the cub cadet tractor finally completly rough assembled except for final motor drive shaft alignment. Got the big pulling tires and wheels off of the single engine ICE puller. It's sitting out in the field now with a tarp over it because we blew a tire while pulling it in and broke the steering. Another thing to fix.

Anyway we tore down the cub cadet and went at the rusty metal with a vengence and a lot of rust reformer. I also finished up the final welds on the frame, the battery racks and the weight bars.

Meantime I got a real deal on some aluminium front wheels and three rib ag tires but had to convert them from 1 1/8 taper roller bearings to 3/4 inch bushings, a pain but worth it. 

From Thursday evening we put in ten hours and got from picture 1 (rough assembled) to picture 2 and 3 by Friday 8 pm.

I need to fine align and pin the motor and drive shaft, finish painting, install batteries and basicily just bolt the pre wired controll panel and HV wiring into place.

Might be driving it by tomorrow evening (weather permitting) There is also a pull this Sunday within 50 miles so I just might try to make it (again weather permitting, they say 40% chance of thunderstorms)

More pictures will follow as I get finished up and do a pull.

Hopefully nothing will break.

You all be well


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## Mesuge (Mar 6, 2008)

This Cub Cadet looks like very nice platform for conversion, very spacious frame and everything.


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## Jimdear2 (Oct 12, 2008)

Mesuge said:


> This Cub Cadet looks like very nice platform for conversion, very spacious frame and everything.


Mesuge,

The cub cadet along with a few other makes were designed and built as real tractors with heavy steerl frames, cast iron front axles, and cast iron transmissions. This one is a narrow frame 100 model and probably was built sometime in the 1970s. They were really built to last.

If I were doing this as a general use tractor I would have done placement a bit differently so I could get more and bigger batteries into it. I probably would have kept the original clutch and mule drive as well.

I've thought about a storage shed for it that was covered in solar panels to keep the batteries charged, and that led to a big grid tied UPS battery pack for power back up for the house installed into a bigger shed with more solar that could be used to dump charge the tractor. The ideas just kept coming and I ended up with a 10,000 dollar lawn mower.

Backed out of that real fast.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Looking good, can't wait to see the dirt fly!


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## Jimdear2 (Oct 12, 2008)

JRP3 said:


> Looking good, can't wait to see the dirt fly!


JRP3,

One down and 1 to go.

And a BIG EV GRIN.

I finished up the major work on the Cub Cadet puller this morning about 10:00 am and took it for a ride and another ride and another ride and another ride.

Get the idea it's a fun ride.

Top (3rd) gear is all I need so far and that may be too slow, I would guesstimate 15 MPH. I must have put 5 miles on the thing between two battery charges. 

Had to get off half way through the ride and finish the motor cooling blower duct to cool the motor. After near an hour of puttig around I started pushing it. Even with the throttle ramp up set to 5 out of 15 the thing will wheelie at the drop of a hat. I'm glad I put the wheelie bars on cause it came up so hard I unloaded the rear wheels.

The thing looks pretty good for what is probably a 30 plus year old tractor. Amazing what a little paint will do.

I am more then pleased with the results of 48 volts and an old HiLo motor and can't wait to see what 72 volts and a D&D motor will do in the ultralight.

Can't wait till next weekend to show it off and hook it to the sled.

I have uploaded a video my wife did of the first ride antics. 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aSs1y0SI0Eo

Excuse the quality It was done with a snapshot camers.

See ya all


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Beautiful!  Gotta get some weights on the front bar.


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## Jimdear2 (Oct 12, 2008)

JRP3 said:


> Beautiful!  Gotta get some weights on the front bar.


JRP3,

You got it, really need weight up there. Just think how that thing will react when you jerk the sled and all that down pressure happens It might jump up on the whelie bar and unload the rear wheels 

I finally found that piece of 1 inch threaded rod I've been looking for. It gets welded to the front top edge of the slide out weight bar. I already found my spare wing nuts. I hate rattleing weights so I always use nuts to hold them tight on the threaded rod bars.

The rear weight bars are almost done, they are designed to slip into the frame when I need them. But I might not need them with my fat butt on the seat. (Steroids let me breath, but man do I put on weight)

Hopfully I wont embarass myself next Saturday on my first hook and I'll get a good video with the digital camcorder.

I plan on dialing the Alltrax max amps setting back a bit until the motor is broken in.

The brushes aren't seating evenly, It's like the rebuilder cut the comutator on a taper. I only have that nice patina on about 1/3 of the the com.

Well that give me a good excuse to keep running it around. 

I keep nodding off I better go to sleep.

Be well


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## Jimdear2 (Oct 12, 2008)

I've been a bit remiss in keeping up with posts on the tractor conversions.

One is at 98% and the other one is at 80% and working

I have the Cub Cadet pretty stable now. I took it to a pull June 13 and didn't do as well as I wanted to, but nowhere near as bad as I suspected I might. 

Didn't get any pictures as I went alone, my help faded at the last minute. Next pull I'll see if someone else got any pictures.

I didn't break anything and pulled distance in the front half of the up to 13 HP gas garden tractor class. I am going to have to do some re-gearing and weight tuning for sure.

I could only get 3000 rpm in second gear, that about 4.5 MPH. I need to get up to 8 or 9 MPH to be at the top of the class. Low gear wouldn't work any better, even at 5500 rpm it is slower then second at 3000. There are many regearing options for the Cub so I should get somewhere there. Of course I could try 60 volts. 

I was shorthanded so I didn't get to set up the Alltrax to log the pull, my amp meter is still on it's way from China so I don't have any data yet. 

The major problem is my fat butt. The tractor is too light in the front, I can't keep the front end down. I've removed all of the weight I can from the rear and can only get 60 lbs. on the front. I guess I'll have to find a lighter person to drive it.

One reason I haven't posted is I am trying to get the rear motor ultalight puller done. The rainy weather has killed my schedule. As it sits right now if iI don't get rained out again tomorrow I should make it to the two pulls this weekend with both tractors. I have a few quick photos, one of the of the motor alignment one of the start of battery racks. I'll attach a couple of the Cub also just because I am so pleased on how it turned out. 

One thing happened during the ultra light build that is one of those once in a lifetime deals. When I set the motor into the tractor after reworking (shortening) the drive shaft I set the motor on top of two pieces of 1 x 1 square tubing to get an idea of what I would need to do to align it. The darn thing was almost perfect. Welded in the tubing and some hold down bolts and did the 12 volt run up. Absolutly perfect, no noise vibration or binding.

Got the battery racks in and all of the hold downs made and in prime. All eighteen Hawkers are wired into a 3P x 6S configuration. Started the rear short bed stake box / battery cover. Got to go get more Deck Screws. Ran out of daylight so I'll take and post more pictures tomorrw


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Have you thought of moving the batteries up front on the Cub? Sounds like you might need more voltage.


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## Jimdear2 (Oct 12, 2008)

JRP3 said:


> Have you thought of moving the batteries up front on the Cub? Sounds like you might need more voltage.


JRP3,

I've been looking at moving one of the batteries from under the seat to over the motor, and may do it if I keep driving it. I also thought about another battery and trying 60 volts. But there is a fat butt problem preventing that (at least if I keep driving)

Just like your 6 wheeler the Cub is supposed to be a working vehicle so I dont want to get things too far out to left field.

Since I have the ultralight almost done I just may find a lighter person to drive the Cub, add weight to the bar and see what happens. If that doesn't do it, then with a lighter person I can go with another battery.

Pulling looks simple but there are so many variables . . .


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

This looks so much fun, especially without the exhaust fumes!

If I had the space or somewhere to play I would make one of these. I was always into pulling things with whatever I was driving, long trains of Land Rovers at shows, tree trunks, stone posts, tank transporters, anything I can get a rope or chain around!

What sort of weight do you get on one of those sleds?


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## Jimdear2 (Oct 12, 2008)

Woodsmith said:


> This looks so much fun, especially without the exhaust fumes!
> 
> If I had the space or somewhere to play I would make one of these. I was always into pulling things with whatever I was driving, long trains of Land Rovers at shows, tree trunks, stone posts, tank transporters, anything I can get a rope or chain around!
> 
> What sort of weight do you get on one of those sleds?


Woodsmith,

It is a lot of fun in many different ways. 
First you get to build it. 
Then you get to tune it in for pulling. 
Then you get to tune it in to each track condition (every pull is different).
Next you have to figure the sled and the operator.
Next you hook it (that will get you 15-30 seconds of addrenlin).
If you figured everything right you win if you missed one thing you dont.
You aren't really competing aginst the other pullers, you are competeing against the sled and operator. 

I know that tractor pulling and garden tractor pulling are popular in the UK. I see lots of YouTube footage of pulls from over there. You should do a bit of looking and head out to one. 

There are many clubs and organizations devoted to this sport, that hold regular meets. So that gives you the place to play.

As far as building one I did my first one on top of the picnic table with a vice, a sawsall, a drillmotor and a small welding torch set. I still pull it 15 years later.

Be careful though. Fifteen years ago I went to the local county fair to watch the Big Tractors pull and later saw the garden tractors and motorcycle engine powered ultra light modifieds. I went home and started building one the same day. 

I still hook that one and although it has slowed down a bit it is still good for a third and if someone screws up reading the track maybe a first.

The electrics have been a revelation. I did the electrics just because I couldn't find a turbine I could afford and and jokingly said I should go with an electric motor, then someone said electrics wouldn't work as pullers. That was all it took. Now each time I take it out it gives me another supprise. 

The people just love it because it it just keeps going and going and there is no noise. The other pullers are in awe. they cannot believe that the little tin can in place of the engine with a couple of batteries can do what they have seen it do. 

The International Cub Cadet garden tractor is a good conversion canidate because its transmission is so strong. Most other garden tractor transmissions are a joke. I don't know if there is an english built equivalent to the cub cadet garden tractor. I'm sure there is. With the torque of an electric you will need something strong.

The ultralights use a small car transmission and differential with a M/C engine or some clubs allow car engines some even up to small V8.

We have some that weigh 1800 poumds that have in excess of 650 horsepowe.

The weight transfer sleds we pull have a standing weight of 8 to 10,000 pounds. 

Usually the plate is about 10 to 12 square feet the pull will start with about 200 pounds on the plate.

From there the transfer boxs moves forward at differents rates decided by which gear the operator put the box drive into. Some sled use a single four speed trans others might have as many as 20 different speeds. That box can contain anywhere from 2 to 5000 or more pounds. 

There are too many other transfer sled tricks designed to stop you for me to describe them all.

It's kind of a contest between you and the sled operator. He makes his best guess at what will stop you before you travel 300 feet and you set up your tractor to beat him. Sometimes it is a suttle as changing tire pressure by one pound sometimes it is moving 20 pound from front to back. sometimes it is just starting 6 inches to the right. 

I do love to talk about this, sorry I've run on a bit.


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## DIYguy (Sep 18, 2008)

Jim, 

Your enthusiasm is abundant is still very contageous. Good on ya man. At the end of the day, we have to love what we do. It's nice to see a glimpse of passion....


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

We want to see more videos!


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## Jimdear2 (Oct 12, 2008)

DIYguy said:


> Jim,
> 
> Your enthusiasm is abundant is still very contageous. Good on ya man. At the end of the day, we have to love what we do. It's nice to see a glimpse of passion....


Aw shucks


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## Jimdear2 (Oct 12, 2008)

JRP3 said:


> We want to see more videos!


I'll try to get someone to operate the camera this weekend.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

That's excellent, Jim.

I do still remember the adrenalin rush from towing 36 tons with my Land Rover and close on 60 ton with my 6x6. The rush wasn't any less when I was pulling out a tree with my car or dragging away the van that parked across my drive preventing me from parking my car.

I did, however, stop going to motor sports events of any description as I couldn't support the waste of fuel that went on around the sports themselves. I guess that if it was all electric no one would be wasting charge outside of the competition.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Not to get off topic but,


Woodsmith said:


> and close on 60 ton with my 6x6.


6x6 did you say  Was that a military unit? As you might guess I have an interest in 6x6 vehicles


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

JRP3 said:


> Not to get off topic but,
> 
> 6x6 did you say  Was that a military unit? As you might guess I have an interest in 6x6 vehicles


Sorry to hijack the thread.

Not a military military vehicle but a self build.
I took a long wheel base Land Rover S3 and over a couple of years I converted it to look and work like an 1950's Scammell. A bit of a cross between an Explorer and a Constructor.



The only original parts were the bulkhead(firewall?) and some bits of the chassis. Even the cab was widened.
It ran a 3.6l diesel engine with a 5 speed (4 speed and crawler 1st) ZF gearbox.
It used Land Rover axles that were extended about 7 inches wider and a three speed remote transfer box that I designed and built using standard Land Rover gear wheels.

All the work was done in the street and with the vehicle staying road legal, though not always mobile, all through.

Hijack over.


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## Jimdear2 (Oct 12, 2008)

Woodsmith said:


> Sorry to hijack the thread.
> 
> Not a military military vehicle but a self build.
> I took a long wheel base Land Rover S3 and over a couple of years I converted it to look and work like an 1950's Scammell. A bit of a cross between an Explorer and a Constructor.
> ...


WOW !!!
Almost makes my picnic table top built pulling tractor seem insignificant. 

ALMOST. 

Building any vehicle from scratch or rebuilding one into something else is a major accomplishment as we all know.

Did the police bother you for doing the reconstruction in the street? Back when I was young and stupid (now I'm old and stupid) I would change the engine on my drag car in the street and used to get "comments".

I'll bet that the comments you got about that beast were almost as much fun as driving it.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Nice work woodsmith! Some of my 4 wheeling buddies and I kicked around similar ideas but never got around to it. Nice to see someone building the dream


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

Jimdear2 said:


> Did the police bother you for doing the reconstruction in the street? Back when I was young and stupid (now I'm old and stupid) I would change the engine on my drag car in the street and used to get "comments".


The Police then were quite reasonable. The vehicle was taxed, tested and insured. I always left it in a safe condition for the public and cleaned up after myself. They would pull up when ever they saw me working on it and ask how it was going. I don't know if it helped but the donor vehicle was an ex police riot van so sort of one of their own.

The biggest problem I had was from other drivers parking and bumping it. It would leave deep gouges in their hood and trunk panels but they never seemed to be bothered with the results of their 'park by feel' methods.


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## Jimdear2 (Oct 12, 2008)

JRP3 said:


> We want to see more videos!


We got rained out this weekend But I did get a couple of video clips from a previous pull.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0shCm6swxXg
The first hook was first time on my secondary transaxle. I broke the good one the previous pull. So I had everything set light, 2nd instead of third gear, No weight on the back, Hard tires , Hitch lowered to decrease down pressure weight bar in but still heavy (110 lbs.)


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pQRQXGx_5Lg
The second hook I was still in 2nd but I had raised the hitch, moved 20 lbs dropped 4 lbs in tire pressure. It was still light in the back end and I could have gone to 3rd gear, I was only pulling about 250-280 amps, the controller is good for 450.

THEN the blasted thing jumped out of gear, If you look at my face you can see I thought I blew another diff. I was still moving good so I probably has another 30-40 feet left (DARN IT). Anyway I've got to build a shift lever lock to prevent that from happening again. I am going to try to have the beafed up transaxle rebuilt by next pull so I don't have to worry about another blown diff.

Next weekend We pull at a cydermill, The owner has just built us a track that really looks good. The owner is also a puller. He has been experimenting with turbocharged Kubota diesels in Cub Cadet chassis, He has broken a few transaxles as well.

I have the 2 to 1 reduction unit done for the Ultralight as well. The motor is spinning up a lot faster, I'll have get it under a load to see what amps I pull so I can start figuring ratios. As it sits right now in second gear at 4500 rpm the tires are turning near on to 21 mph. Hopfully that will give me a ground speed of around 11-12 mph. Just right.

I might let someone else drive both tractors just to be sure I get videos. Especially the ultralight.

You all be good now.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Cool stuff! Are you the only puller with a laptop strapped to the tractor?  I used to use a bungee cord on my transfer case shifter to keep it in low lock when racing.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

Great videos there. 
Makes it look like an effortless walk in the park compared to the ICE puller. Guess it is better on the pit crew's hearing too.

I have my eye on a garden tractor on Ebay at the moment!

I must be mad. I still need a motor and a commuting vehicle before I can justify playing!


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## Jimdear2 (Oct 12, 2008)

Woodsmith said:


> Great videos there.
> Makes it look like an effortless walk in the park compared to the ICE puller. Guess it is better on the pit crew's hearing too.
> 
> I have my eye on a garden tractor on Ebay at the moment!
> ...


 
Woodsmith,

The price is sure right!!!.

As an ICE yard worker, It looks really nice, BUT IMHO hydrostatics don't go well with electric motors. You spend too much time trying to balance motor power to speed/load or if you run the electric motor at constant speed you are throwing amps away to heat. 

As a puller, hydros can be made to work but not well and they can be fragile.

BUT

The price is sure right!!!.  and tractors can be FUN to play with.


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## Jimdear2 (Oct 12, 2008)

JRP3 said:


> Cool stuff! Are you the only puller with a laptop strapped to the tractor?  I used to use a bungee cord on my transfer case shifter to keep it in low lock when racing.


JRP3,

The laptops is being used to compute the Aero requirements.

Dyou believe that I have this bridge in Brooklyn I want to talk to you about)

Really, Alltrax allows you to downlad a file of motor amps, battery amps, battery voltage, controller temperature and throttle position. I have tried three times to do this in a pull, but each time I have had some fubar happen that prevented it.

Maybe next time.

I keep putting off making the shift lever lock, there is always somthing else that NEEDS to be done right now. In This case the bungee didn't work.

AC motor? LiPO? Hey going first class, I'll be watching.

Be well


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

Jimdear2 said:


> Woodsmith,
> 
> The price is sure right!!!.
> 
> As an ICE yard worker, It looks really nice, BUT IMHO hydrostatics don't go well with electric motors. You spend too much time trying to balance motor power to speed/load or if you run the electric motor at constant speed you are throwing amps away to heat.


Ahhh, but I'm thinking I can remove the hydrostatic drive altogether and drive with electric. The hydraulic pump and motor can be used for another more suitable task.
And I'm hoping the price stays right.


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## Jimdear2 (Oct 12, 2008)

Woodsmith said:


> Ahhh, but I'm thinking I can remove the hydrostatic drive altogether and drive with electric. The hydraulic pump and motor can be used for another more suitable task.
> And I'm hoping the price stays right.


What are you planning to use for gear reduction and differential? You need some pretty high reduction ratios. With the right motor you could maybe get away with a single gear. But that would limit you to either Heavy hauling (very slow) or yard putting. If you have access to a manual transaxle, well that might get the job done as long as it isn't one of those aluminium tinfoil toys that are in most moderen tractors on this side of the Atlantic.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

I posted this thought in the Mini build thread:


Woodsmith said:


> This has got me thinking.
> 
> When I did my 6x6 conversion I built a transfer box from scratch. It had an input flange, two outputs to the rear and one to the front and also an engine speed PTO. It was made from standard gears and shafts with only a small amount of machining.
> 
> ...


It could have quick change gear ratio and a locking diff.


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## Jimdear2 (Oct 12, 2008)

It might work. 

I would like to see less torque on the input side of the the final reduction, but since this is a unit from a much heavier vehicle it might live OK in a garden tractor. Most planetaries from autos that I'm familar with have ratios in the 2 .0 - 2.5 to one reductions so you would probably need additional reduction somewhere. Maybe axle end planetary reduction units (some older garden tractors used them)

Funny you should suggest this because I was just looking at a powerglide clutch and planetary set yesterday and thinking that with a bit of machine work the planetary set could be put into a case (say a piece of thick wall aluminium tube of suffucient size, with an end flange that would direct mount to the motor. The back of the planetary case would have a standard tailshaft. this woild give you a 1 to 1 and 2 to 1 (1.76 to 1 up to 2.2 to 1 ratios available) This tied into a Differential with a 4.11 or so ratio would put you into the sweet spot of 8 to 8.5 to 1 reduction. Many different ways to apply the clutches to shift.

Sorry I'm babbling.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

Yes, I see what you are thinking. I have been looking at the old Laycock types of overdrive that fitted on gear box tailshafts and running one backwards to get the reduction gearing. The hyraulic pump inside would need to be run from the output shaft and the gear biased to start on low ratio and then with increasing hydraulic pressure from road speed it can then be switched to 1:1 ratio. It would only have the one cone clutch.


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## Jimdear2 (Oct 12, 2008)

It's been a while since I last posted, I've had a bit of a bad time with my health and other things. I bought a new (old) motorhome (At a fantastic price) and have spent a while fixing a lot of little stuff. THEN THE ENGINE BLEW IN THE MOTOR HOME!!! It was an unforseen thing. A poor repair done a long while back caused the oil pump pick up to break off. New Engine Time. OUCH - OUCH. But even so I'm still WAY ahead on the price I paid.

The pulling season ended on a pretty good note if a bit puzzleing though. 

The cub was pulling in third and fourth place out of 15 to 20 rolleyes:Stock) 13 hp tractors. This is with the brake draging in the bad temp. transaxle I'm using and with tires that were too tall. Still can't get the motor RPM above 4500 with light loads or the current over 250 when loaded down to less then 1500 rpm.

I have decided to regear the GOOD transaxle when I rebuild it this winter. I'm still looking at options. I wan't to see if I can't get 5500 rpm (I have the rpm limiteded to 6000) Under a light load and have enough tire to load the motor up to 400 plus amps without stalling the motor (a bad thing I'm told). 

Maybe (PROBABLY) I don't yet understand the dynamics involved. Possibly one of the really aware people on the site might offer some clarification.

The rear engine tractor was still hanging back. I haven't quite found the right combination. But the last pull gave me a couple of hints. Going to move 4 batteries to the front to lighten up the rear and remove 50 lbs of dead weight from the front. This will get me under the 1200 lbs. range where I want to be. I'm also going to cut the tires to put an edge back on the tires.

I'm running a 12:30 chain reduction in front of the transaxle and now, in 2nd gear see 450 amps at 12 - 1500 rpm when under a load before the sled stops me and the tries break free, but I still only see 3 - 3500 max rpm under a light load. I need to see 5000 rpm.

Yet in low gear I'm seeing only maybe 3800 - 4000 max rpm and only 300 amps under a load with the tires still pulling. With the total gearing I have I would think I would see 5000 rpm. I've still had problems with getting a monitor file out of the Alltrax (always my fault) so I still don't have good data.

Anyway, thats how the season ended, getting ready to pull in my head in preparation for winter.

*A News Flash*. I just picked up a freshly rebuilt but never picked up 13 inch motor. It was a rush deal out of a rebuilding shop in the area. I paid for their cost and got it out of there. 

It is still in the back of the pick up wrapped in plastic (it's raining again/still). As soon as I can get it unloaded and unwrapped I'll take some pictures for the experts to comment on. There is a tag riveted to the case but it's in pretty bad shape. I can read that it is a 36 48 volt motor, maybe I can see more after I clean the tag up. It has eight new brushes, the com is clean and freshly turned, the motor has been cleaned checked and turns freely. The shop people say the motor is in fine shape, they think it might be rated at 30 HP continious. 

Well more as I learn.


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