# Re: [EVDL] Towed generator



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Towed generator*

I have the same hope, a towed genset to enable "real time" charging/power
generation on the road, at highway speed (55-60 mph). Simply plugging my
on-board charger into the generator is 1/8th fast enough (takes 8 or more
hours to charge batteries).

Is there a plan or schematic showing the actual interface between generator
and batteries andpower circuit of the EV?

I'm running 144 volts, so I'm thinking of using a rectifier bridge at
240volts, and regulating current and voltage to supply needed power without
overpowering batteries.





> 
> I am thinking of building a towable genset for Ohm Ranger to make it a
> "range extended EV" for trips longer than my battery-only range. Anyone
> have any
> thoughts/experience? My truck can go 45 mph on 125 amps, so if I had a
> generator (series motor with brushes advanced the other direction?) that
> put
> out 120-150 amps at 120v I would be able to maintain 45-55 mph as long as
> fuel lasted. I figure a 20hp engine should handle this, at about 1-2
> gal/hr
> fuel burn. Would the battery pack tolerate 125 amps for short periods
> during
> coasting? This would be cheaper than buying a second car for trips, and
> I'd
> still be driving my EV. I appreciate any input! Thanks, Bill Vogan
> -- 
> View this message in context:
> http://www.nabble.com/Towed-generator-tp19564885p19564885.html
> Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at
> Nabble.com.
> 
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> 
> 
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-- 
View this message in context: http://www.nabble.com/Towed-generator-tp19564885p19566642.html
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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Towed generator*

Cool a home made Volt and 2 years early.

-----Original Message-----
From: Roland Wiench <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, September 18, 2008 11:49 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Towed generator

Hello Bill,

Back in 1976 when I pick up my EV from the Electric Fuel Propulsion Company 
in Troy, Mich., They had a optional very stream line engine generator for my 
EV call Transformer I. I did not get this option which was I think was a 
four cylinder diesel engine turning at three phase 37.5 kva 125/250 vac 60 
hz. It was also design for a emergency generator for a home.

It use a 3 phase rectifier that had two or three 300 amp diodes parallel per 
phase. A size 5 or 6 AC magnetic 3 phase contactor was use on the AC side 
in the generator unit.

It use a very large Power Anderson with four power pins and 2 control pins. 
It look like the receptacles we get from Power Anderson and install at the 
local air force base which is use for aircraft starting.

There was a pair of 600 amp DC contactors in the EV, so this unit can either 
run the motor controller directly and charge the battery, or just charge the 
300 amp cobalt 2.2 volt cells at 200 amp up to 80% SOS or could provide the 
250 VAC power to the 50 amp on board charger to charge these batteries.

This unit extended the range of EV just over 500 miles if driven normally. 
While I was there, they just got done testing the EV with this motor 
generator up to speeds of 90 mph.

Roland





----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Bill Vogan" <[email protected]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, September 18, 2008 6:35 PM
Subject: [EVDL] Towed generator


>
> I am thinking of building a towable genset for Ohm Ranger to make it a 
> "range
> extended EV" for trips longer than my battery-only range. Anyone have any
> thoughts/experience? My truck can go 45 mph on 125 amps, so if I had a
> generator (series motor with brushes advanced the other direction?) that 
> put
> out 120-150 amps at 120v I would be able to maintain 45-55 mph as long as
> fuel lasted. I figure a 20hp engine should handle this, at about 1-2 
> gal/hr
> fuel burn. Would the battery pack tolerate 125 amps for short periods 
> during
> coasting? This would be cheaper than buying a second car for trips, and 
> I'd
> still be driving my EV. I appreciate any input! Thanks, Bill Vogan
> -- 
> View this message in context: 
> http://www.nabble.com/Towed-generator-tp19564885p19564885.html
> Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at 
> Nabble.com.
>
> _______________________________________________
> General EVDL support: http://evdl.org/help/
> Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
> Archives: http://evdl.org/archive/
> Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>
> 

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Towed generator*

You might look in to this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u_vzNH0nkX4

Neil Young converted a lincoln which includes a generator. Not sure of the
details, but he has some interesting things to say about it in this
interview with David Letterman.





> Bill Vogan wrote:
> >
> > I am thinking of building a towable genset for Ohm Ranger to make it a
> > "range extended EV" for trips longer than my battery-only range. Anyone
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Towed generator*



> David Hrivnak wrote:
> > Cool a home made Volt and 2 years early.
> 
> Check out the "Zero Carbon Car" at http://aztext.com/zero_carbon_car.cfm
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Towed generator*



> On 18 Sep 2008 at 18:35, Bill Vogan wrote:
> 
> > I am thinking of building a towable genset for Ohm Ranger to make it a "range
> > extended EV" for trips longer than my battery-only range. Anyone have any
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Towed generator*

I have spend hours doing the search thing, LOTS of chatter about towed 
gensets. But have not found a single instance of exactly HOW to do the 
actual "use this controller, connect wires to..." implementation 
information, hence my original question. Didn't mean to intrude.
Sorry,
Bob




> EVDL Administrator wrote:
> > On 18 Sep 2008 at 18:35, Bill Vogan wrote:
> >
> >
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Towed generator*

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Rick Beebe" <[email protected]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, September 19, 2008 9:09 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Towed generator




> > David Hrivnak wrote:
> >> Cool a home made Volt and 2 years early.
> >
> > Check out the "Zero Carbon Car" at http://aztext.com/zero_carbon_car.cfm
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Towed generator*

I am also interested in this type of project. I have gone through the
archives and been pretty unsatisfied with what I have found. Roland saying
500 miles sounds unbelievable, but everything he does is amazing. 

I don't know anythign about generators, but could someone point out the
specs to look for to power a 144 v pack. And is connecting it to the
charger enough to get 100 miles out of a pack, or does it really have to be
connected to the motor.

How heavy are these things? would it be reasonable to hang one off the back
of my vw bus just for long trips, and easily get it into the grage for
normal everyday driving? It sounds too easy to just get a generator, hang
it off the back, plug in my charger and double my miles. I'd love to rent
one and see what happens. Any help on actually how to connect the generator
to the charger/pack would be apreshiated.

Thanks

Soren
www.electricbus.blogspot.com




> Bill Vogan wrote:
> >
> > I am thinking of building a towable genset for Ohm Ranger to make it a
> > "range extended EV" for trips longer than my battery-only range. Anyone
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Towed generator*

Unless your charger charges your pack in about an hour to full charge, 
connecting a genset to the charger will not work.

You have to supply as much average energy as you are using. So, if 
you consume say 300 watts/ mile at 60 mph cruising, you need a 300 x 
60 = 18,000 (18 kW) continuous watt generator to maintain you battery 
at the same level. Now if you have say 10kWhr usable energy storage 
in your battery, and you want to travel 100 miles at 60 mph with all 
the above parameters you would need 100 x 30 = 30 kWh of energy to 
make the trip. You start out with 10kWhr in you battery. You need to 
supplement it with 20 kWh from the generator. The trip will take 1.67 
hours to complete, so you need a generator capable of supplying 
20/1.67 ~ 12 kW.

This is a bit simplistic, and does not consider efficiency. But the 
conclusion can be drawn that it is going to take a larger generator 
than one of those little portable units to have any significant effect 
on range, and running the power through a charger will not work unless 
you have a really big charger! You will need to feed the current 
right across your battery, and it will need its own voltage 
regulator. Also a current limiting circuit is needed to prevent 
overcharging you batteries during coasting.




> glasers wrote:
> 
> >
> >
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Towed generator*

Hi i was wandering same thought . my problem is hill here it kills my
batteries just leaving here . nothing left [amps ] for going into city .
thinking a generator large enough to power 10 - 2/4/ 6 amp chargers .
could run generator to get /help up and down hill .?? lonnie


glasers
>
>
> I am also interested in this type of project. I have gone through the
> archives and been pretty unsatisfied with what I have found. Roland
> saying
> 500 miles sounds unbelievable, but everything he does is amazing.
>
> I don't know anythign about generators, but could someone point out the
> specs to look for to power a 144 v pack. And is connecting it to the
> charger enough to get 100 miles out of a pack, or does it really have to
> be
> connected to the motor.
>
> How heavy are these things? would it be reasonable to hang one off the
> back
> of my vw bus just for long trips, and easily get it into the grage for
> normal everyday driving? It sounds too easy to just get a generator, hang
> it off the back, plug in my charger and double my miles. I'd love to rent
> one and see what happens. Any help on actually how to connect the
> generator
> to the charger/pack would be apreshiated.
>
> Thanks
>
> Soren
> www.electricbus.blogspot.com
>
>


> > Bill Vogan wrote:
> >>
> >> I am thinking of building a towable genset for Ohm Ranger to make it a
> >> "range extended EV" for trips longer than my battery-only range. Anyone
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Towed generator*

Comments/questions below:



> glasers wrote:
> > I am also interested in this type of project. I have gone through the
> > archives and been pretty unsatisfied with what I have found. Roland saying
> > 500 miles sounds unbelievable, but everything he does is amazing.
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Towed generator*

Roger Heuckeroth wrote:
> Unless your charger charges your pack in about an hour to full charge, 
> connecting a genset to the charger will not work.
>
> You have to supply as much average energy as you are using. So, if 
> you consume say 300 watts/ mile at 60 mph cruising, you need a 300 x 
> 60 = 18,000 (18 kW) continuous watt generator to maintain you battery 
> at the same level. Now if you have say 10kWhr usable energy storage 
> in your battery, and you want to travel 100 miles at 60 mph with all 
> the above parameters you would need 100 x 30 = 30 kWh of energy to 
> make the trip. You start out with 10kWhr in you battery. You need to 
> supplement it with 20 kWh from the generator. The trip will take 1.67 
> hours to complete, so you need a generator capable of supplying 
> 20/1.67 ~ 12 kW.
> 


Again, the operative question is:
How do we make the connection? Transformer to 150 volts?
Rectifier Bridge to convert to DC?
Then what?


> This is a bit simplistic, and does not consider efficiency. But the 
> conclusion can be drawn that it is going to take a larger generator 
> than one of those little portable units to have any significant effect 
> on range, and running the power through a charger will not work unless 
> you have a really big charger! You will need to feed the current 
> right across your battery, and it will need its own voltage 
> regulator. Also a current limiting circuit is needed

Exactly! Surely someone has done it already?



> to prevent 
> overcharging you batteries during coasting.
>
>
>


> glasers wrote:
> >
> >
> >> I am also interested in this type of project. I have gone through the
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Towed generator*



> Roger Heuckeroth wrote:
> > This is a bit simplistic, and does not consider efficiency. But the
> > conclusion can be drawn that it is going to take a larger generator
> > than one of those little portable units to have any significant effect
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Towed generator*



> Robert Brown wrote:
> 
> >>
> >
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Towed generator*

Bob and All,
I've used a genny as a range extender for the S10. Although people like Dave Stensland have built dedicated gas engine/generator systems for range extenders, as they are more efficient, I would simply plug my FrankenLester and Zivan chargers into a stock 10kW 20hp genny.
I just went to the Yahoo "Groups Digest Archive" via the www.evdl.org help page, and typed in "battery boy" and "genny" for a search:
http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/ev/message/34295

(Great exchange with some of the old timers from two years ago!)
>David and All,
>Here we go again! With all due respect, I think you can have your cake and
>eat it to, depending on how much you need to run the genny. I believe the
>last time I posted about this was on April 9th (included below). As I've
>said before, I have used a genny as a range extender for the truck, and
>running the numbers with a dedicated kilowatt-hour meter on the truck since
>the pack was new: 22,786 miles total on the pack using 13,221
>kilowatt-hours (that's 580 watt-hours/mile at the outlet for those of you
>paying attention), 254 kilowatt-hours using the genny, comes out to be 2%
>of the total time. Because my pack needs replaced, I've re-insured and
>licensed an old gasser to pull trailers, which is when I used the genny for
>the most part. Now without running the numbers, my gut feeling is that
>having to have a second vehicle, licensed and insured, to drive 2% of the
>time, isn't worth it and I don't feel bad about running the genny. Besides,
>for my 60 mile round trip run to the dump, the gasser I'm now using get's
>about 10 (gasoline) miles per gallon and has no pollution controls (it does
>have a PCV valve!). As I recall, I was getting two 60 mile trips out of two
>20 pound propane tanks, and they hold about four gallons, so eight gallons
>of propane per 120 miles. As an occasional propane range extender, this
>doesn't seem excessive.
>
>50,000 plus pure eelectric miles on the buggies, and a countin',
>Dave (B.B.) Hawkins
>Member of the Denver Electric Vehicle Council:
>http://www.devc.info/
>Card carrying member and former racer with The National Electric Drag
>Racing Association:
>http://www.nedra.com/
>Lyons, Colorado
>1979 Mazda RX-7 EV (192V of Orbs for the teenage daughter)
>1989 GM (General Murderers of the pure EV!) S10 (144V of floodies, for Pa
>only!)
>
>2004 Toyota Prius (for Ma, and Pa if Ma is a supervising!)
>
>
>>From: "David Roden" <[email protected]>
>>Date: Wed, 23 Aug 2006 12:39:51 -0400
>>
>>Engine driven gensets will vary in emissions. Anything you can buy at your
>>local Home Depot will be a gross polluter. (Yes, I realize that people's
>>concern for their personal vehicles' emissions varies. I suppose too that
>>some states/regions are more aggressive that others about emissions laws.)
>>
>>Some people claim that certain industrial engines can be tuned for lower
>>emissions. Perhaps true, but none of them is likely to match a well-
>>designed, microprocessor controlled automobile engine, one which is
>>programmed to light up a warning light when its emissions control system is
>>failing. I say this because by law the automakers have a much tougher
>>standard to meet. It's not much in the nature of industrial engine builders
>>to meet legal standards that don't apply to their products. ;-)
>>
>>So, if you insist on using a genset trailer, you can still be relatively
>>clean by using the ICE from your conversion on it, with all emissions
>>control gear intact.
>>
>>The simplest and most efficient means of dealing with the range problem is
>>to keep an EV for short trips and an ICE for long trips. This is assuming
>>you have the space and can afford the license and insurance. Alternatives
>>are to rent an ICE when it's needed, or to share an ICE with someone. This
>>latter can be done informally, by private agreement, or through a commercial
>>car-share scheme.
>
>
>
>>Date: Sun, 9 Apr 2006 14:45:16 -0600
>>To: EVDL
>>From: "David (Battery Boy) Hawkins" <[email protected]>
>>Subject: Re: A cleaner EV genset.
>>
>>Peter and All,
>>You have a valid point about propane conversions that aren't done
>>correctly, but the conversion kit I mentioned in my original post comes
>>with an oversized regulator that has an idle mixture adjustment, and a
>>load block (needle and seat) assembly to adjust the mixture under load
>>(url below). I should have mentioned this, but I sometimes forget that not
>>all the people on this list are recovering gear-heads and could easily do
>>a conversion themselves! So, in addition to my comment about "if you can't
>>afford a diesel engine...", if you don't feel comfortable doing a propane
>>conversion, then you could pay a certified company to do the conversion or
>>buy a propane genny, if that's the route you want to take.
>>BB
>>
>>>Date: Sat, 8 Apr 2006 10:11:30 -0700 (MST)
>>>From: "Peter VanDerWal" <[email protected]>
>>>
>>>Actually, propane /can/ burn cleaner than gasoline, but it's not a given.
>>>Propane conversions can, and often do, pollute MORE than gasoline engines.
>>>
>>>In fact most home conversions of automobiles ended up polluting MORE than
>>>they did as gasoline burners which is why it is currently ILLEGAL to
>>>convert a car to propane (in the USA) unless you are a certified converter
>>>AND you have to get certification for every vehicle you convert.
>><snippage>
>>
>>
>>>Date: Fri, 7 Apr 2006 18:17:06 -0600
>>>From: "David (Battery Boy) Hawkins" <[email protected]>
>>>Subject: Re: 3kw genset for $315
>>>Date: Fri, 7 Apr 2006 18:17:06 -0600
>>>
>>>Bruce,
>>>I would suggest that if you MUST run a genny and can't afford a diesel
>>>engine (running bio-diesel), that you pick a model that has a propane
>>>conversion kit available. As I've posted before, I converted my 10kw Y2K
>>>special and use it as a range extender for the S10 EV. Since my genny has
>>>a big 20hp engine, I use two 20lb BBQ bottles Teed together. I'm assuming
>>>you use propane in your RV, so you probably already have BBQ tanks that
>>>you swap or have filled. You could also use the genny for RV backup
>>>power. No toxic stinking gasoline (which gets stale) or stinking exhaust,
>>>blah, blah, blah... Anyway, I bought a kit for my Honda engine at:
>>>http://www.uscarb.com/
>>>
>>>After writing the above, I read your follow-up post below. I would argue
>>>with your comment that LP isn't much cleaner than gasoline. I don't have
>>>the numbers handy, but having put an exhaust analyzer on my genny before
>>>and after conversion, the emissions were lower by something like a factor
>>>of four. I hated to be around the exhaust when it was powered by
>>>gasoline, but now with propane, I don't mind it. Now the noise is another
>>>story! Also, my FrankenLesters (transformer) and Soneils/Zivan (switcher)
>>>run fine on the genny.
>>>Hope this helps,
>>>BB
>



>Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2008 10:12:39 -0400
>From: Robert Brown 
>
>I have spend hours doing the search thing, LOTS of chatter about towed 
>gensets. But have not found a single instance of exactly HOW to do the 
>actual "use this controller, connect wires to..." implementation 
>information, hence my original question. Didn't mean to intrude.
>Sorry,
>Bob
>
>


> >EVDL Administrator wrote:
> >> On 18 Sep 2008 at 18:35, Bill Vogan wrote:
> >>
> >>
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Towed generator*



> Bill Vogan <[email protected]> wrote:
> >
> > I am thinking of building a towable genset for Ohm Ranger to make it a "range
> > extended EV" for trips longer than my battery-only range. Anyone have any
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Towed generator*

Mitch,
I hear your comments, and for some they may be gospel. But....
More than 90% of the time, my 40 mile range is perfectly adequate. Right 
now the other 10% of the time I have to revert to a second car, an ICE 
which I have to maintain, regularly do State safety inspections, and insure.
For that 10% of the time, the "really crappy ICE car" Extender Trailer 
would be just the ticket, and probably save me several thousand dollars 
a year in cost of maintaining another vehicle. My basic calculations 
indicate a genset trailer might burn 2 gallons of gasoline an hour - my 
Bonneville ICE burns close to 4 on the highway.
I continue my quest.
Bob


Mitch Patenaude wrote:
>


> Bill Vogan <[email protected]> wrote:
> >
> >> I am thinking of building a towable genset for Ohm Ranger to make it a "range
> >> extended EV" for trips longer than my battery-only range. Anyone have any
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Towed generator*

> Yes, you'd bypass the charger and just dump current into the 
> batteries with rectified generator output. If your batteries are 
> lead, and discharged to "bulk" charging level, you can dump all the 
> current you want into them (at least cruising current). You just 
> have to be absolutely absolutely sure that you cut off the generator 
> when you get near 20% DOD.


The next step is to bypass the generator, charger, batteries, 
controller and motor, and feed the mechanical output right to the 
wheels, such as when you own an ICE for those times you need to go 
that far. One drawback is you have to know when you will be going 
farther than your EV can handle.




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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Towed generator*

Maybe tie the generator throttle to your main throttle as an approximation?

Or perhaps the throttle on the generator is pulled by a 12V solenoid.
The anderson plug from the generator could be a double ended one 
going in between the pack and the rest of the system. In this we put a 
shunt and the voltage accross this shunt will be proportional to how 
much current you are using. We just need to calibrate the shunt/solenoid 
to get the right effect.



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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Towed generator*

This is going to the old series vs parallel hybrid debate. The key 
advantage to the series hybrid is that the motor can run at its 
optimum RPM and load generating average power at its most efficient 
point.



> [email protected] wrote:
> 
> >> Yes, you'd bypass the charger and just dump current into the
> >> batteries with rectified generator output. If your batteries are
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Towed generator*

> This is going to the old series vs parallel hybrid debate. The key 
> advantage to the series hybrid is that the motor can run at its 
> optimum RPM and load generating average power at its most efficient 
> point.

I hadn't even thought of it that way when I responded - I was thinking 
along the lines of having more than one car available (1 ICE, 1 BEV), 
because any hybrid, series or parallel, has more points of failure 
than either half of the process.


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Towed generator*



> On 20 Sep 2008 at 16:54, [email protected] wrote:
> 
> > The key
> > advantage to the series hybrid is that the motor can run at its
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Towed generator*



> BBrown wrote:
> > I have the same hope, a towed genset to enable "real time" charging/power
> > generation on the road, at highway speed (55-60 mph). Simply plugging my
> > on-board charger into the generator is 1/8th fast enough (takes 8 or more
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Towed generator*



> EVDL Administrator wrote:
> > The series hybrid advantage is not nearly as great as it was in, say, 1967
> > or even 1970, when ICE cars had rudimentary emission controls. In fact its
> > efficiency advantage may have effectively nearly disappeared. With modern
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Towed generator*

I am glad the rest of you can type so fluently. That way I only have to type
a few words and the subject continues. 

My comments.

I would think.... A series hybrid (Think FLA with me) would start the ICE
when the pack became 50% discharged. IT would run full output until 100% of
charge were reached and then switch off. At highway speeds once started it
would probably become "like" a parallel system in that it would seldom
switch off. Just to fend off comments about my 100% charge I am of the
belief that going into absorption every time you charge is not necessary and
may be detrimental. Thus charging through absorption would only be necessary
at home. This makes the control of the series ice pretty simple as it could
be controlled simply by using an amp hour counter.

Mark Grasser
Eliot, ME

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf
Of Lee Hart
Sent: Sunday, September 21, 2008 3:25 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Towed generator



> EVDL Administrator wrote:
> > The series hybrid advantage is not nearly as great as it was in, say, 1967
> 
> > or even 1970, when ICE cars had rudimentary emission controls. In fact
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Towed generator*

I found his site a day or so ago, and have sent him an email.
My high school French is embarrassingly deficient, mostly due to the 
fact that it hasn't been exercised in more than 40 years, so if he does 
not speak English, we will not be able to communicate. That would be our 
loss.
He does have an installation worth looking at and learning from.
Bob




> Lee Hart wrote:
> > BBrown wrote:
> >
> >> I have the same hope, a towed genset to enable "real time" charging/power
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Towed generator*



> On 21 Sep 2008 at 14:25, Lee Hart wrote:
> 
> > > My advice is : use the best tool for the job.
> >
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Towed generator*

From: EVDL Administrator <[email protected]>
> I was not arguing that we need wider choices of "hybrids" that use
> only one fuel (gasoline)... My real point was that a pure EV is
> suitable for short distances in town, and a pure ICEV is suitable
> for long distances intercity. Each should be used where it is
> appropriate. IMO, combining them into one vehicle makes for a tool
> which doesn't do either job as well as the separate tools.

Agreed! When the "mission" is clearly defined, the market should ideally offer a vehicle optimized for that mission. Pure EV for purely short-range driving. Pure ICE for purely long-range driving. If you do both (at different times), then separate vehicles would be an optimal solution.

I think of hybrids (whether purely gasoline powered like the present ones, or PHEVs that allow plug-in recharging) as an expedient alternative when you want one vehicle to do both jobs. Its performance will be a compromise, of course. The big challenge is to figure out *where* the compromise should be made. Today, the auto manufacturers assume it should be 99% ICE mode, 1% EV mode. But in the future, who knows? They may discover that (gasp! choke!) people *prefer* EV mode!

--
Those who say it cannot be done should not interrupt the one who is
doing it. -- Chinese proverb
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart-at-earthlink.net

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Towed generator*



> Mark Grasser wrote:
> > I would think.... A series hybrid would start the ICE when the pack
> > became 50% discharged. It would run full output until 100% of charge
> > were reached and then switch off. At highway speeds once started it
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Towed generator*

Lee,
Good morning.
Sounds like a button on the dash to select two modes of operation.
Please put this on your list of projects. 


Mark Grasser
Eliot, ME




-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf
Of Lee Hart
Sent: Monday, September 22, 2008 11:24 AM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Towed generator



> Mark Grasser wrote:
> > I would think.... A series hybrid would start the ICE when the pack
> > became 50% discharged. It would run full output until 100% of charge
> > were reached and then switch off. At highway speeds once started it
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Towed generator*

A colleague of mine who is French might have located the page of interest.

http://www.vehiculevert.org/index.php?lien=generatrice





> BBrown wrote:
> >
> > I found his site a day or so ago, and have sent him an email.
> > My high school French is embarrassingly deficient, mostly due to the
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Towed generator*

I just looked at the website below. THIS IS THE INFO I've been looking for!
Now to bookmark it, re-read, re-read, and re-read it 'till I think I 
understand it.
Then it's off to find a suitable motor and ICE engine.
If anyone comes up with a working model, post the pictures and specifics 
for the rest of us.
I just might be able to put my other ICE backup car on ebay!
Bob




> Nathan Stowe wrote:
> > A colleague of mine who is French might have located the page of interest.
> >
> > http://www.vehiculevert.org/index.php?lien=generatrice
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Towed generator*

I was thinking about how to do this myself. My EV is a Corvair pickup truck. These are rear engined 6 cylinder vehicles. I was thinking about getting a front end wrecked one and cutting it in half. Taking the rear with the motor and putting a generator in place of the transmission. Something like item #230293461587 on e-bay. This will put out 62A at 240V when run at 1800RPM. If you couple that output to a PFC50 charger I could be pumping 75 amps into my battery pack. When driving on the freeway I'm running between 50 and 200 amps, nothing is flat out here is Southern California. Anyway, the PFC is 3K, the generator is ~600, the wrecked truck maybe another 1K. Then you need to rig something to keep the motor running at 1800 RPM and couple it's output to the generator. An added benefit of this method is I'd have a second truck bed to haul stuff around if needed. This would only be used when I needed to go on longer trips than my battery pack is good for.
It would also be pretty cool to bring to the car shows to display the contrast between the before and after conversion complexity.

TiM




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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Towed generator*



> Bill Vogan wrote:
> > I am thinking of building a towable genset for Ohm Ranger to make it a "range
> > extended EV" for trips longer than my battery-only range. Anyone have any
> > thoughts/experience? My truck can go 45 mph on 125 amps, so if I had a
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Towed generator*



> Martin wrote:
> > 120-150 is a big range of amps so I chose 135. That would be 16.2kW. The
> > generator head probably isn't more than 85% efficient so you're then
> > looking at ~19kW which is more like 25HP. It's akin to driving around a
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Towed generator*

What's missing in this thread is a comment from someone who has actually 
DONE this. I seem to recall that Bill Dube' experimented with a genset 
trailer some years back. He's probably still busy in Iceland, but when he 
has a chance, perhaps Bill would be willing to describe the results of his 
tests.

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Towed generator*

It sounds like most people who have tried this have not really 
approached it in a calculated manner... no offense intended. Just 
throwing a little generator on a small trailer in hopes of extending 
you range is most likely an exercise in futility.

To do it right you would first have to figure out what your average 
power requirement is not just your EV, but your EV towing a trailer 
with 500-1000 lbs of cargo. This would require actual measurement, 
not just theoretical calculations. Then you could figure out what 
power you need from your generator... it won't be small.

The Chevy Volt will use a 70 (if I remember correctly) HP motor to 
extend its range.





> Steven Ciciora wrote:
> 
> > Bill Dube has, Sheer Pullen has tried it, KD has tried it, I believe
> > Dave Battery Boy Hawkins helped someone try to pull it off, and I
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Towed generator*

Hello Fellow Trailer Designers,
There sure are precious few photos - but I hope to get a working model 
put together this winter.
My ultimate goal is to have a trailer, 1,000 - 1250 pounds with enough 
generator power to run my 4200 pound S10 down the road at reasonable 
speed (i.e. keeping up with traffic). In the words of one of you, "a 
real crappy ICE," but it will be used just a few times a month when I 
need to go beyond the current 40 mile thresh-hold. It will be a bit 
loud, and relatively poor mileage, but for the intermittent use it will 
see, it should prove to be quite useful. I can completely get rid of my 
ICE powered car. (There are still two others in the family). I remain 
convinced that the trailer is the only option (not putting it in the bed 
of the truck) for a generator this size, due to the fact that my S-10 is 
already loaded to the limit (and a tad beyond) with lead.

I've been pouring over Alain's web page, his implementation of an 
on-board genset.
He uses a 7 hp 3 phase motor driven by an 11 hp Honda ICE for an output 
of 6.5kw watts, or something there'abouts.
He uses a low voltage dc current (9v battery) to pre-charge (maybe not 
the right term) the motor to get it generating. Once we/I understand it, 
it looks pretty straightforward.
I'm thinking an ICE on the order of a Briggs or Honda V-Twin, 27 hp.
The next question is, "What size generator/motor?" I'm seeing generator 
heads on the order of 12kw and 15kw. Seems that would keep me cruising 
on level ground, charge the pack a bit when coasting downhill, and use 
the pack a bit going back up the other side.
Alain uses a capacitor bank to "condition" the DC output of the Baldor 
motor/generator. There is an old-timer living near me who is a 
"seat-of-the-pants" electric motor guy. Does basic rewiring, etc. to 
change voltage, rotation just by looking at it (as opposed to me who 
needs a 20 page instruction booklet to hook up positive and negative 
wires; not to mention converting a 3 phase motor into a generator).
I think I'm getting a handle on this.
Bob




Roger Heuckeroth wrote:
> It sounds like most people who have tried this have not really 
> approached it in a calculated manner... no offense intended. Just 
> throwing a little generator on a small trailer in hopes of extending 
> you range is most likely an exercise in futility.
>
> To do it right you would first have to figure out what your average 
> power requirement is not just your EV, but your EV towing a trailer 
> with 500-1000 lbs of cargo. This would require actual measurement, 
> not just theoretical calculations. Then you could figure out what 
> power you need from your generator... it won't be small.
>
> The Chevy Volt will use a 70 (if I remember correctly) HP motor to 
> extend its range.
>
>
>
>


> Steven Ciciora wrote:
> >
> >
> >> Bill Dube has, Sheer Pullen has tried it, KD has tried it, I believe
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Towed generator*

Right tool for the job implies that you are always aware of the job to
be done. Ever take your EV to the store to get an item that turns out
to not be available? Now extending the trip to the other store turns
out to be beyond your range. I drive my EV almost every day, but the
limited range is a real problem. Some way to accommodate unanticipated
needs would make the EV more pleasant to use.

Knowing that 90% of the trips are less than 40 miles doesn't help when
you are unexpectedly involved in the other 10%. (I shoulda taken the
ICE.)



> EVDL Administrator <[email protected]> wrote:
> >
> > My advice is : use the best tool for the job.
> >
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Towed generator*

Bob,

Do you have a trailer now that you could hook up, load up and go for a 
test drive? Do you monitor battery, not motor, amps? If so, you 
could take a test drive and see what battery amps you average while 
pulling the trailer. Multiply your average times your battery pack 
voltage, and that will get you in the ballpark of the power you need.

Roger



> Robert Brown wrote:
> 
> > Hello Fellow Trailer Designers,
> > There sure are precious few photos - but I hope to get a working model
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Towed generator*

Something like this? 

http://www.acpropulsion.com/vehicles/pages/hybrid%20trailer_JPG.htm 




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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Towed generator*

Here's the paper on it. 

http://www.acpropulsion.com/reports/Low_Emiss_Range_Ext.pdf 





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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Towed generator*



> Robert Brown wrote:
> > I'm thinking an ICE on the order of a Briggs or Honda V-Twin, 27 hp.
> > The next question is, "What size generator/motor?" I'm seeing generator
> > heads on the order of 12kw and 15kw. Seems that would keep me cruising
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Towed generator*

> If you want to at least try to make the genset pollute as little as
> possible - use a small car engine.
> Some little Geo Metro or Honda Civic engine WITH all the pollution
> controls and cat converter.

I wonder where a person would get an ICE
for one of those small cars in good working order
that no-one needed? Not from the EVDL by
any chance?

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Towed generator*



> Jeff Miller <[email protected]> wrote:
> > Don't forget to factor the extra rolling resistance of two more wheels and
> > aerodynamic drag of a seperate trailer into your consumption numbers. I
> > would suspect you would need at least a 40KW genset to pull it off and maybe
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Towed generator*

Except that this time I will not be dissuaded by the nay-sayers, To 
the extent of the availability of funds, I have every intention of 
reproducing a small trailer similar to the little T-Zero example, 
modified to look good (cute?) behind my S10 Stepside. When I sink my 
teeth into something, I tend to ride it out to the (sometimes) bloody 
end.
True, there are LOTS of things to factor in. If it were easy, it would 
have been done many times over. If the T-Zero team could do it, I/we 
should be able to do (our version) as well.
My cost effectiveness will be balanced against the maintaining an 
extra ICE vehicle "for when I need it."
Even if it is not hugely cheaper, it will go to reinforce the overall 
viability of EV travel. I pretty much make my living with my car. I'm 
tired of high fuel costs, and somebody (us) needs to step up and 
demonstrate the alternatives.
I's not all about the fuel cost, it's not all about the environmental 
stuff, it's not all about the dependence on foreign fuels. They all 
factor in. IT IS ALL ABOUT being part of the solution.
So, I will end up factoring in the extra drag, weight, and rolling 
resistance of a towed trailer.
Or we could look at a two-point hitch caster-wheel attachment. It's 
been a long time since I saw one of those!
Keep brainstorming.
Bob



Quoting Evan Tuer <[email protected]>:

>


> Jeff Miller <[email protected]> wrote:
> >> Don't forget to factor the extra rolling resistance of two more wheels and
> >> aerodynamic drag of a seperate trailer into your consumption numbers. I
> >> would suspect you would need at least a 40KW genset to pull it off and maybe
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Towed generator*

I think if we use 60Hz motors as generators, they are gonna be HUGE.
We don't need AC either, so maybe there is something out there that fits 
our need better.

ie

http://polarpowerinc.com/home.htm

Maybe the ole Aircraft generators are the ticket.


Ok, why do they call AC units generators and DC units Alternators. When 
did that get flipped.

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Towed generator*

I built an ultra-light low drag one wheeled trailer to carry my autocross
tires. A variation on this theme could be useful...

More at http://www.chapmanarts.com/Stephen/trailers.html Cyclops 
Stephen Chapman




> BBrown wrote:
> >
> > I just looked at the website below. THIS IS THE INFO I've been looking
> > for!
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Towed generator*

Do you have any closeups of the u-joint?

Randall
Concord, NC


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "enganear" <[email protected]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, September 25, 2008 9:08 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Towed generator


>
> I built an ultra-light low drag one wheeled trailer to carry my autocross
> tires. A variation on this theme could be useful...
>
> More at http://www.chapmanarts.com/Stephen/trailers.html Cyclops
> Stephen Chapman
>
>


> > BBrown wrote:
> >>
> >> I just looked at the website below. THIS IS THE INFO I've been looking
> >> for!
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Towed generator*

I will take pics this weekend. I actually have a new version with two small
wheels close together. It would tow fine with just one, but is easier to
maneuver unhitched with two.
-Stephen Chapman




> Randall Van Engen wrote:
> >
> > Do you have any closeups of the u-joint?
> >
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Towed generator*

Bob,

The generator that you would tow behind your EV has power losses, and
then the charger, batteries, and EV drive have losses as well. Not to
be off topic or stir up issues, but what if the engine that you want to
add to your EV directly drove the drive train or a wheel. Take Stephen
Chapman's trailer, looks like you are towing a motorcycle behind your EV
without the front wheel. Build a tow bar to mount under your favorite
motorcycle, add controls, hitch up to your EV, and fire that up when you
go on a long trip. Or, build a trailer like Stephen Chapman's, and add
a sprocket to the wheel, a motor with clutch, no gear box (the EV will
get you up to speed), and fire that up. Essential EV content - at least
this unit will get you more range, and possibly make someone feel more
secure with the range of an EV, and promote the EV spread.

Alan 

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On
Behalf Of enganear
Sent: Thursday, September 25, 2008 6:09 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Towed generator

(below is shortened to save bandwidth)
I built an ultra-light low drag one wheeled trailer to carry my
autocross
tires. A variation on this theme could be useful...
http://www.chapmanarts.com/Stephen/trailers.html Cyclops 
Stephen Chapman




> BBrown wrote:
> >
> > I just looked at the website below. THIS IS THE INFO I've been looking
> > for!
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Towed generator*



> Seth Rothenberg wrote:
> >> If you want to at least try to make the genset pollute as little as
> >> possible - use a small car engine.
> 
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Towed generator*

If you want to make your own gen set rather than buy one, a fork lift 
motor that has been converted to propane may be a good start. The 
Komatsu fork truck we have has a Nissan engine and it runs nice and 
clean with hardly any exhaust smell. After all, it is designed to run 
inside of a warehouse, so exhaust needs to be clean. Its also fairly 
small... maybe about 1 liter. Just food for thought.




> Robert MacDowell wrote:
> 
> > Seth Rothenberg wrote:
> >>> If you want to at least try to make the genset pollute as little as
> ...


----------

