# Need Help with German Motor



## major (Apr 4, 2008)

loopcat said:


> Hey Folks
> I recently bought a *Schabmuller or Schabmueller electric motor.*
> *I connected to my zilla controller, but the leads are getting HOT! The motor does turn, but it takes a lot of juice to do so. I tried different wiring configuration, but it seems to always run the same. Am I connecting it right? Is this really a series wound dc motor, or PM, Compound?*
> *I emailed Schabmuller in Germany, and they did kindly send me a drawing and a curve sheet. I'm still a little confused. Can someone enlighten me?*
> ...


Hi John,

Looks like a sweet motor. From the drawing schematic and curve, I'd say it is a compound wound motor with interpoles, or sometimes called a compensated shunt motor. E1 and E2 are the shunt field. A1 and D2 for the armature and series coils. The drawing does show E2 and D2 as minus and E1 and A1 as positive. Make sure your polarities are correct.

The Zilla and other PWM motor controllers are made for series motors. I have run some compound motors from a Curtis series controller. I don't know if the Zilla will like it though. You might try to power the shunt field directly from the battery (72V) in the proper polarity. And then use the zilla on only the D1 and A1 terminals. 

Good luck,

major


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## loopcat (Feb 2, 2008)

Hi Major,
Thanks for the reply! I haven't heard of a compensated shunt motor before. Do you think it would work well in an EV? I'll do a bit more research on it.

Schabmueller is still in biz and returned my 1st email. I'll contact them and ask more questions. Also I'll contact Otmar at Cafe Electric and ask him about useing this most with the Zilla.

Thanks Again Major,
John in SA..


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## Guest (Jun 6, 2009)

What I see is a SepEx motor. Do not use your zilla to power this motor. 

Pete 

PM me.


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

gottdi said:


> What I see is a SepEx motor.


Hi Pete,

Look at the wiring diagram on the drawing. 

http://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/3598804127/sizes/l/ 

And from the performance curve, looks like a compound motor to me. The shunt field is terminated (E1 and E2), so it may have been suitable for field weakening. But I don't think it is your run of the mill SepEx. And obviously a pump motor. A bit unusual to see a normal SepEx drive a pump.

But, by all means, he should check with the Zilla factory.

Regards,

major


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

loopcat said:


> Hi Major,
> Thanks for the reply! I haven't heard of a compensated shunt motor before. Do you think it would work well in an EV?


Hi John,

Yeah, could work well in an EV. Been using one in my eTractor for a long time. And, it is basically what those aircraft generators are that some guys use. Like I said, you need to get the polarity correct on the shunt field. And then power the shunt field from the battery, not thru the PWM controller. And keep the shunt field at the proper voltage. Such a shunt field should just take an amp or two. Measure the resistance from E1 to E2 and post it. All this, of course, if it is the correct direction of rotation for ya. Reversing it would require internal mods.



> Schabmueller is still in biz and returned my 1st email. I'll contact them and ask more questions.


Schabmueller makes a great motor for the application, forklifts, I guess. Years ago I tested a couple and dug into them. Very quality design and construction. Somewhat surprised they spend any time with you and send those drawings and curves. More than what I hear US companies are willing to do.



> Also I'll contact Otmar at Cafe Electric and ask him about useing this most with the Zilla.


Yeah, good idea. Send him what I've posted here and see if he agrees with me.

Regards,

major


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## loopcat (Feb 2, 2008)

Hi All,
Here are a couple pics of the inside. So is it a series, sep-ex, shunt or something other?
Thanks Again, John..
http://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/3604731208/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/3603915831


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## Guest (Jun 8, 2009)

major said:


> Hi Pete,
> 
> Look at the wiring diagram on the drawing.
> 
> ...



Major,

Looking at the diagram I only see 4 terminals so it must be SepEx and it was confirmed that it is SepEx. 

I like the motor. 

Pete 

PS. This looks to be a bit larger than the military starter/generator motors. Still may be an excellent little motor.


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

gottdi said:


> Major,
> 
> Looking at the diagram I only see 4 terminals so it must be SepEx and it was confirmed that it is SepEx.


Hi Pete,

Why do 4 terminals make it a SepEx? And what is the confirmation you speak of? And in your mind, can a SepEx have series turns on the field? I guess it get down to how you define SepEx. Some say a shunt and SepEx are the same animal. So does that include a compensated shunt motor? Anyway, it is what it is no matter if you call it a rose. If he wants to use it, why would not the Zilla work on the armature circuit while separately exciting the shunt field from the battery?

Regards,

major


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

loopcat said:


> Hi All,
> Here are a couple pics of the inside. So is it a series, sep-ex, shunt or something other?
> Thanks Again, John..
> http://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/3604731208/
> http://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/3603915831


Hi John,

I guess the only thing for sure is that it is NOT a series motor. I see nothing which leads me to believe that it is not as I said; a compensated shunt wound motor, which is a compound motor with very little series field. As in my discussion with Pete, it may in fact be able to be used as a separately excited motor, in the designed direction of rotation.

Regards,

major


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## Guest (Jun 8, 2009)

OK, I may admit that the term SepEx is a bit vague but it is not a series and it is not a common compound motor. It has 4 main field windings and 4 interpoles. The motor pictures show two large terminals and two small terminals. This indicates a shunt style motor with fine windings for the fields and course for the armature. The confirmation came from Jim Husted our master Guru. The motor is used as a pump motor but would be good for main drive. 

Gotta jet to work, more later

Pete


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## loopcat (Feb 2, 2008)

Well I contacted Schabmueller in Germany, They confirmed that the motor is in fact COMPOUND WOUND. They also explained how to wire it up. I connected to the Zilla and VOILA, runs like a top! This time I used thicker wire, so it runs cooler.

Takes a little longer to get spinning, but when it does it turns quick (5000 RPM, according to laser tachometer).
Curious, it seems to uses less amps than my GE-11 at the same throttle position. Are Compound motors more efficient? Also it seems to keep the same RPM speed regardless of increased power. Is this normal?

I'm seriously considering putting this motor in my EV. Do you think it might give better range/speed than my GE-11 (69V 320amp 1822rpm)? Currently I'm running 96v. Better batteries are coming next year.
Any advice is greatly appreciated.

Thanks for all your help,
John Stuart in Texas..


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

loopcat said:


> Well I contacted Schabmueller in Germany, They confirmed that the motor is in fact COMPOUND WOUND. They also explained how to wire it up.


Hi John,

Compound, hey. That's what I thought. I think I can shed some light on your questions. But please tell how you wired it.

Regards,

major


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## loopcat (Feb 2, 2008)

*Clockwise* = E1 / 1B1 = plus
* = D2 / E2 = minus*

*Counter-clockwise* = E1 / 1B1 = minus
* = D2 / E2 = plus*


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

loopcat said:


> *Clockwise*
> [h1] E1 / 1B1 [/h1]
> plus
> 
> ...


For some reason, the drawing shows A1 instead of 1B1. Does this motor actually rotate CW and CCW when you reverse polarity?

And going further, how was the Zilla connected to it and what voltage battery?

major


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## loopcat (Feb 2, 2008)

Hey Major,
Yes, 1b1 is right, different from drawing. I have not tested the reverse polarity yet. I will soon. I connected the Zilla M+ and M- directly to the motor. E1 and 1B1 are wired together on the motor. E2 and D2 are also wire together. I disconnected the + lead to the GE-11 (in the car). The traction pack is 96v. 
What's your instinct on using it in my EV? 
Thanks for the reply,
John..


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

loopcat said:


> Hey Major,
> Yes, 1b1 is right, different from drawing. I have not tested the reverse polarity yet. I will soon. I connected the Zilla M+ and M- directly to the motor. E1 and 1B1 are wired together on the motor. E2 and D2 are also wire together. I disconnected the + lead to the GE-11 (in the car). The traction pack is 96v.


John,



> What's your instinct on using it in my EV?


What's wrong with the GE 11?

1) I do not think reversing motor polarity will reverse direction of rotation. So, it is correct for you? If not, it will require internal motor mods to reverse.

2) Motor has an internal (female) output shaft. 24 tooth serration from what I see. British Standard (BS1929 or something like that). Not common in the states. Can you couple to it?

3) You're not wiring it like I said. It will require something (like I've been saying), or you'll get crappy starting torque.



> Takes a little longer to get spinning, but when it does it turns quick (5000 RPM, according to laser tachometer).
> Curious, it seems to uses less amps than my GE-11 at the same throttle position. Are Compound motors more efficient? Also it seems to keep the same RPM speed regardless of increased power. Is this normal?


Again, because you hooked up the shunt field to the controller output, low duty-cycle (low speed throttle position) causes a low shunt field voltage and low shunt field excitation meaning low flux. This low flux causes low torque, hence the longer time to get spinning. And when you vary the throttle, you vary the armature voltage and shunt field voltage at the same time, and doing so, one tends to increase RPM and other to decrease it. So the net result is as you noted,


> it seems to keep the same RPM speed regardless


If you get this motor hooked up properly, it could work very well for you. And in fact be a little more efficient than a series motor at light loads. But will probably give a bit less torque at high currents. A multi ratio tranny should take care of that.

If you try to run with the field connected separately, make sure you have the field connected first and disconnected last. Powering the armature without the field on can cause an overspeed.

Regards,

major


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## loopcat (Feb 2, 2008)

I'm confused here. Looks to me there is MORE series winding than shunt. Like 70% series and 30% shunt. 

http://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/3604731208/

Is that right?


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

loopcat said:


> I'm confused here. Looks to me there is MORE series winding than shunt. Like 70% series and 30% shunt.
> 
> http://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/3604731208/
> 
> Is that right?


How could you tell from that picture?

You may be confusing it with the interpoles which have their own coils. The main field poles have the main field coils and it appears to me that both the series and shunt windings are wrapped together.

How can I tell? 

http://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/3573811804/sizes/l/in/photostream/ 

That says a lot to me.

Regards,

major


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## Guest (Jun 10, 2009)

John,

Good to finally know what you have. As for if it will be better than the GE 11", well I guess you will have to install it and give it a try and let us all know what the results are from the swap. Would be nice to know how well it works. 

I guess asking the horse it always the best rather than speculate. I am glad you have a motor you can actually use with the Zilla. 

Pete


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## loopcat (Feb 2, 2008)

Hey Major,
Here is what Otmar wrote to me..

"That is a compound wound motor. I don't know how much of it is provided by the shunt field but you are going to need to find a way to get 70V on the shunt field and if you don't have that it is probably why it is drawing too much current. Either that or it is damaged.

Be very careful, turn the Zilla motor current way down, unleashed it will eat your motor in short order, especially if something is wrong with the motor.

I hope this helps,
-Otmar"

That sounds a lot like what you suggested. OK..Could I then tap into the traction pack to get the 70v needed for the shunt side? The total pack voltage is 96v. I'm guessing that 96V direct to the shunt would be too high?
Thanks again,
John..


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

loopcat said:


> That sounds a lot like what you suggested. OK..Could I then tap into the traction pack to get the 70v needed for the shunt side? The total pack voltage is 96v. I'm guessing that 96V direct to the shunt would be too high?


Hi John,

Yeah, you need rated voltage on the shunt field, applied constantly, before the armature is energized and until after the armature is shut off. From what I see, rated voltage is like 70 volts, give or take 5. 96V would work on the shunt field, but would cause more heat and maybe saturation, which would increase losses.

If you tap 70 or 72V from the battery pack for the shunt field, you'll draw an amp or two more from that section of the 96V pack. Uneven discharge. So, you need to alter your charge regiment or have equalizers on the pack.

Take the resistance from E1 to E2. If the resistance is high enough, you can just use a dropping resistor in series with the field and 96V. Problem solved.

Regards,

major


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## loopcat (Feb 2, 2008)

Hey Major,
Sorry about the late reply. My email sends these messages to spam. I fix that. I measured the resistance between E1 and E2. It is 14.9 OHM. Is that high enough to use a dropping resistor? If so, what value is needed and where should I install it?
Thanks for all ur help,
John in Tx..


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

loopcat said:


> Hey Major,
> Sorry about the late reply. My email sends these messages to spam. I fix that. I measured the resistance between E1 and E2. It is 14.9 OHM. Is that high enough to use a dropping resistor? If so, what value is needed and where should I install it?
> Thanks for all ur help,
> John in Tx..


Hi John,

A 15 ohm shunt field sounds too low a resistance. Just rough numbers, using Ohm's Law, V=IR, 75V/15 ohms = 5A. Power = V * I = 75V * 5A = 375 Watts. Nearly 100W per coil. I think that is too high. I wonder if this motor was intended to have the shunt field powered from a controller which would supply it with a lower voltage. I think I alluded to that in a earlier post. It is unusual to see a unidirectional pump motor with separate terminals for the shunt field. Most times they are just two terminal motors with the field connected internally.

Having said all that, to answer your question, use Ohm's Law again to figure a resistor value which would go in series with the 15 ohm shunt field to maintain the 5 amps when connected to 96 voltage. Comes out to a 4 ohm, 100 watt resistor.

Put all that together, you have something like 500 watts (0.5kW) total for the field excitation circuit. Something is amiss here. Recheck the field resistance and/or check back with the motor maker for confirmation of shunt field voltage requirements.

Regards,

major


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## Georgia Tech (Dec 5, 2008)

Boy I sure wish I could have this motor....this thing has inter poles!!! which is a HUGE plus!!!!!! and its insides look biger than the Kostove motor (sp). If this thing were mine I would take series fields that are there on the main poles and take them out and make this sucker a BIG High voltage regen Sep Ex motor and forget about it being compound wound !!!!
it would be AWSOME!!!


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