# Charging on 3phase 400VAC input



## njloof (Nov 21, 2011)

Can't you just use a single pole of the three-phase to run your charger? Each is a single phase 230V supply in its own right.


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## frodus (Apr 12, 2008)

[edit] my dumb-ass had a brainfart.... 

Maybe you can use the 400V socket (really 220Y/380VAC, 3-phase + neutral????)... Phase to neutral is 220V, phase to phase is 380V. So you should be able to take one phase and neutral (if you have it) and power the charger). Leave the other phases disconnected.


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## Zappo (Sep 1, 2011)

frodus said:


> Exactly.
> 
> Use the 400V socket (really 220Y/380VAC, 3-phase) and only connect A and B (or B and C, or C and A) to the charger. That would give you, if you're correct, up to 63A on one single phase at 230V and stay under your limit of the Elcon.


NO! This is one of my few areas of knowledge. Phase to phase on a 3-phase system is full voltage, in this case 400V. It is just 400V single phase. Phase to neutral (if there even is a neutral) will give you about 230V with a 400v phase-to-phase. We have 480V 3-phase (and phase-to neutral is 277v) at many locations here in the United States.


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## frodus (Apr 12, 2008)

Brainfart, edited.... I was thinking one thing, typing another.


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## Zappo (Sep 1, 2011)

frodus said:


> Brainfart, edited.... I was thinking one thing, typing another.


Thanks Travis, that's what I thought. Happens to me way too often. I would have contacted you directly but I didn't want anyone thinking that was correct and doing something dumb before you got a chance to edit it.

Also, thanks for the information on the Vicors and the chargers. I was going to thank you by email but have been swamped at work.


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## frodus (Apr 12, 2008)

No problem. I know 3-phase power (I work with lighting controls) but sometimes the brain doesn't work as fast as the fingers type. Glad you corrected it before... I might not have edited it had you not said something.


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## MN Driver (Sep 29, 2009)

Sanity check it with a DVM prior to putting it into circuit.


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## njloof (Nov 21, 2011)

Heck, wire up a pigtail so you can charge three cars at once


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## brainzel (Jun 15, 2009)

Our power outlet/socket (germany) supports three phases (L1/L2/L3, black,brown,grey) a neutral (N, blue) and a ground (PE, yellow/green).
Every phase has 230V to ground, or 400V to another phase (230V * √3 = 400V).

There are three types of 400V power sockets 16A, 32A and 63A, rated to 11kW, 22kW and 44kW.

I have a 400V/32A outlet.
If I would take only one phase (230V) and the neutral, it would support max. 7,36kW.
The TC Charger (Elcon/Chennic) goes up to 9.3kW (?) max. output.
So it seems to be really scarce.


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## brainzel (Jun 15, 2009)

I still don't know, if I could use the 8kW charger at my 3-phase power socket.
Has anyone tried to wire the 8kW to one phase (230V/32A)?
Michael


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## Elithion (Oct 6, 2009)

For 3 phase chargers, check the list of high power chargers and search within the page for "3φ".

For 3 separate chargers, one on each phase, check the list for chargers that have a check-mark in the "parallel" column.


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## Roy Von Rogers (Mar 21, 2009)

On a three phase system there are two phases 180 degree from each other, hook two diodes to those two with positive facing forward, connect together. Hook another diode to the other phase the opposite, and check the voltage.

You may be able to do that with any two, not sure havent tried it on three phase, only have tried that on 240v to neutral, to get more amps.


Roy


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## frodus (Apr 12, 2008)

Not correct Roy Von Rogers, In a three phase system, all three phases are 120 degrees from eachother.
3-phase 230/380V WYE is wired like this:








So Brainzel, *pick a single phase (A for instance), and neutral, and wire them to the charger as HOT and NEUTRAL.*


Roy Von Rogers:
In a single split-phase system, you have a single 240V phase coming from a secondary winding of a transformer with a centertap (neutral), and each of the L1 and L2 lines are 180 degrees apart. The primary side of the transformer is one phase of a three phase system. What you are talking about is not at all what he's asking. You have what is called split phase. It's unlikely (if you're in the US) that you have three phase power running to your home unless you've specifically asked for it.

240V is wired like this:


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## Roy Von Rogers (Mar 21, 2009)

Yes your right was looking at the waveform the wrong way, as I said I dont have any experience on three phase, but the diode thing may work even at 120 degrees.

I know it works on our 240v system.

Roy


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## brainzel (Jun 15, 2009)

OK. Thanks. The wiring is no problem.
One phase (f.ex. L1) and the neutral (N) from my 3p 400v/32A outlet.

But: 230V*32A = 7360W
The Elcon f.ex. has an output up to 8410W and efficiency of >93%.
So 9044W max. power needed from AC.
That's 22,88% more than allowed.

My question: are these theoretical numbers and everything works fine by plug this charger to my wall?

Or should I rather use the 6kW version to make sure, that the fuse won't pop up every charge?

Michael


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## frodus (Apr 12, 2008)

Then don't use the 32A receptacle! You said you:


> They support 16A, 32A or 63A.


Why not use the 63A feed?

But that aside, you should have a circuit breaker on that circuit.... so just try it, the worst that can happen is that it trips the circuit.


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## brainzel (Jun 15, 2009)

frodus said:


> Then don't use the 32A receptacle! You said you:
> Why not use the 63A feed?
> 
> But that aside, you should have a circuit breaker on that circuit.... so just try it, the worst that can happen is that it trips the circuit.


32A is more common than the 63A.
A single family house has a 63A main fuse, so to upgrade to a 63A socket would be a greater investigation.

To "try" it, I have to buy it first. And that's a little to expensive for a test 
If it doesn't work good, I have some money invested for perhaps nothing ...


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## frodus (Apr 12, 2008)

Get them to program the output for lower input amperage, so you can use a 32A feed.

They can program these so they don't trip the breaker, but the power output would be lower.... and it would remain lower if you connect to the larger feed.


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## xmbaleaf (Dec 13, 2012)

brainzel said:


> OK. Thanks. The wiring is no problem.
> One phase (f.ex. L1) and the neutral (N) from my 3p 400v/32A outlet.
> 
> But: 230V*32A = 7360W
> ...


 
it seems to that you are wrong, charger power depends on the out put voltage and current,not in put ones.

when you want to need the charger power,you only let your supplier know the in put voltage,plugs model,your battery packs model, nominal voltage ,capacity,and how long will you want to fully charge your packs.


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## Coulomb (Apr 22, 2009)

frodus said:


> Get them to program the output for lower input amperage, so you can use a 32A feed.
> 
> They can program these so they don't trip the breaker, but the power output would be lower.... and it would remain lower if you connect to the larger feed.


It would be much easier to just limit the output current, and hence the input power. You can do that with either a voltage on a control pin, or by CAN bus commands.

Then if you find the source is able to supply the power, or you upgrade to a larger feed, you aren't still limited.


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## frodus (Apr 12, 2008)

The way I understand it, having sold their chargers, is that they can program it so they can limit the total power. Whether they do this by input or output current, I don't know.


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## sourcefinder (Dec 17, 2010)

We use 2 Zivan NG9 to charge one pack LiFePo to ~500V.
We use them in serial, so each charger charges half of the battery pack with 245V and 30A.

A 32A power supply is enough for both chargers.
But you can buy the CAN-Adapter for the Zivan chargers and the software then you can reduce power.

If you dont want to use the charging program that is installed when you get the chargers, you will need the Software and the Can Adapter also.
Usually they are programmed for common Pb-batteries.

I often change the programe so that I can charge on a 16A power supply also.

When you take to much power the fuse shuts down charger.
Even when only one phase is missing the charger does stop.


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## sourcefinder (Dec 17, 2010)

Zivan Charger also have master / slave function.
So you set up one charger and connect the other charger(s) via a can-cable.
The slave-chargers do the same as the master-charger.

This only works in parallel use.


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## Elithion (Oct 6, 2009)

sourcefinder said:


> We use 2 Zivan NG9 to charge one pack LiFePo to ~500V. We use them in [series], so each charger charges half of the battery pack ....


Note that each battery half has its own current and hence its own SOC.
Note also that each charger must be controlled independently, because the two halves get charged at slightly different rates, due to variations in the chargers.
For both reasons, what you are doing requires 2 BMSs. Each BMS evaluates the SOC of its own half pack, and controls its own charger.

To avoid having to use 2 BMSs, you can use just a single charger (or two chargers in parallel) to Charge both halves in parallel, and discharge them in series, using this neat circuit:


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## sourcefinder (Dec 17, 2010)

This is not true, it works with one bms.
You cannot charge this voltage with one charger because I could not find one that has enough power and reaches more than 500V.

We have an output on the bms that is closed when one cell reaches over voltage. We multiply this signal via a small circuit to get two signals.
When the bms says overvoltage both chargers are shut off.
When the cells voltage is reduced by balancing the signal is off and the chargers start again.

It is important that both chargers work the same time.
But this is also no problem.
If we charge just half of the cells (or one half more than the other), one cell of the less charged pack reaches the minimum voltage alarm and bms signal turns controller into emergency mode with just 20 kW.

The chargers are set to go to 3,4V per cell and then try to reach 3,7V per cell at a current of 1A. The resistances for balancing delet at 3,6V more than 1A, so no cell reaches the 3,7V. And at 3,7 the high voltage alarm is set and both chargers are shut off.


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## sourcefinder (Dec 17, 2010)

Here you can see a screenshot from the software....


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