# Brushless DC EV motors from China



## Efiero (Feb 7, 2009)

this is the web site for them maybe one of you can get a full spec sheet and prices http://en.ccmotor.cn/myjh/showproduct.asp?id=5682&mylb=sell


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## Technologic (Jul 20, 2008)

Impressive find


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## neal (Sep 4, 2008)

are there controllers availble for these motors that would provide regen?


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## Efiero (Feb 7, 2009)

Ok now i will go find the controller I will attack it like a pit bull never let go LOL


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## Efiero (Feb 7, 2009)

Ok found this site for controllers it said up 500VDC http://www.made-in-china.com/showro...bapL/China-Brushless-Dc-Motor-Controller.html
and anothere site for motors brushless
http://www.made-in-china.com/showro...ailyoqQLnFVgAYu/China-Brushless-DC-Motor.html


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## Bowser330 (Jun 15, 2008)

Wow those seem like great finds...bravo...

Now whos going to fork it out to buy them and test them and share the results with the entire community?

This setup could even be retailed as a kit, similar to the HPG setup...


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## Efiero (Feb 7, 2009)

well i am saving some money every week so when i get enough i will be buying i dont know if i will go for it all or just the controller due to i have some motors but there female shafted


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## ftaffy (Mar 13, 2009)

I have contacted the DC motor makers asking for prices for there 144V 10KW + range. Will post back what i find out.

Untested controllers make me nervous, had a dodgy kelly before using a curtis that had crap acceleration (for a race car) from 0 but good from 10kph +. Im also looking for a 144V 1000A+ model, but if the price is right 500V 600A would do! If anyone buys/gets more info/owns the company please share.

cheers
Taffy


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## Technologic (Jul 20, 2008)

ftaffy said:


> l, but if the price is right 500V 600A would do! If anyone buys/gets more info/owns the company please share.
> 
> cheers
> Taffy


300,000 watts?  why on earth


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## ftaffy (Mar 13, 2009)

Technologic said:


> 300,000 watts?  why on earth


Sadly it is only "Rated power: 1KW to 220 KW"

I was just going off there max's, if put in 3 motors... . Looking @ twin 9" at the moment, well thats space i have allowed for in front. Budget is looking at 1 due to the retard exchange rate to australia.
Direct drive lotus 7 replica.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Efiero said:


> well i am saving some money every week so when i get enough i will be buying i dont know if i will go for it all or just the controller due to i have some motors but there female shafted


A BLDC controller will not work on your series DC motors.


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## Efiero (Feb 7, 2009)

well i just will have to buy it all or nothing then


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## ftaffy (Mar 13, 2009)

http://www.fileden.com/getfile.php?.../files/2009/3/16/2366792/EV_car_SolutionⅡ.pdf 
http://www.fileden.com/files/2009/3/16/2366792/Vehicle DC motor series.pdf
http://www.fileden.com/files/2009/3/16/2366792/price list(motor12~27kw).xls
http://www.fileden.com/files/2009/3/16/2366792/Frame132(15~20kW).pdf
http://www.fileden.com/files/2009/3/16/2366792/Frame132(10KW).pdf
http://www.fileden.com/files/2009/3/16/2366792/EV_car_SolutionⅡ.pdf
http://www.fileden.com/files/2009/3/16/2366792/controller(10~20KW).pdf
http://www.fileden.com/files/2009/3/16/2366792/18kwattwatercooling.pdf
http://www.fileden.com/files/2009/3/16/2366792/15kwatt4500rpm.pdf


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## ftaffy (Mar 13, 2009)

See above for the details which i received in reply. 

DL144-22.0B3 for US$1007 or around ~ AUD$1,500... hmmm


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Those are sort of small motors, the largest one is 74 nm, or 54 ft lbs of torque, RPM of 3600, with a price of $3600 for motor and controller. The HPG AC systems get you 100 ft lbs of torque, 6500 RPM, for $4200 for motor and controller, and you don't have to ship them from China.


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## Efiero (Feb 7, 2009)

it looks like 2500 for motor and controller and about 1000 for just a motor i could be reading this wrong but thats what i am getting


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

I'm pretty sure that one table is for the motors and the second is for the controllers, so $1176 for the largest motor plus $2544 for the matching controller equals $3720, not including shipping I'll bet, for a motor that produces 54 ft lbs of torque and 3500 RPM, and weighs 224 lbs. That makes it twice as heavy as a HPG motor with about half the torque and half the RPM. Not a great deal from what I can see.


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## Efiero (Feb 7, 2009)

In the 2nd PDF if you look at the DL 35-3200/320 puts out high torque and is about 140 lbs


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

That's much better, but I don't see prices. Comparing to the DL144 prices I'll bet the DL 35 will be much higher since the output is so much higher.


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## Efiero (Feb 7, 2009)

ya it might be but you never know but i think it will be higher but just how much if it was $600 higher that still wouldnt be to bad


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Considering it's almost 3 times the output at two thirds the weight that would be an amazing price.


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## Efiero (Feb 7, 2009)

hmmm i have tried to contact the company with email but no luck i want to know how much for the bigger motors 35KW and up


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

I recognize some of the motors and transaxles shown in the PDF file links. Some of the products are listed on Alibaba and are being sold by folks in australia. This is a real company, but I didn't realize their product range was so wide.

Efiero, is there any news from this?

I wouldn't worry about shipping cost. Remember it was a mere $300 to have my battery pack shipped from china by sea. This motor will not be as large or heavy and when you consider the fact that these are LIQUID cooled motors, this could certainly be a good find.


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## Efiero (Feb 7, 2009)

Ftaffy tried for more info but they never sent it I welcome you to try pleas post any info thanks


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

I might just try that. In the mean time, I found the main company website:

http://www.china-electricmotor.com/

Here's the brushless motors:

http://www.china-electricmotor.com/Products.asp?BigClassName=Brushless%20Motors&Smallclassname=DC%20Brushless%20Motors

If you look at the listings for the blue motors (AC or DC brushless), you'll find that the least efficient motors are still at least 92% efficient even in the fractional Hp range, with the high end comming close to 97%........yummy.......

From what I can tell this company is an apointed exporter for dozens, perhaps hundreds, of motor manufacturers in china. Not unlike what Sino Rich Group is for the battery company I got my lithiums from. Just have to fugure out if there is a better person or division to contact within the group. They don't seem to be on alibaba, but are on other B2B websites.


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## dschill (Mar 19, 2009)

looks like this could be a great find! Definatlely post back if you decide to use them and give a review.


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## Efiero (Feb 7, 2009)

I sure hope you get info i am saving my money


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## neljoshua (Oct 21, 2008)

Anyone up for a group buy (or at least two people)? I have been looking at these myself, as I want to go with BLDC. These prices are reasonable and the specs look good. My main concerns at this point are shipping costs and contact infromation in case the stuff turns out to be junk (which I hope is not the case).

Also, do these have regen and a regen switch built in? I looked, but did not see... Regen is really something that I want to do, and it is relatively easy with BLDC.

I like the DL144-15.0B3 motor and corresponding controller (DCBL144-14.0B3); 144V, 15kW...those are exactly what I need.


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

I would probably be in on any group buy, but some one still has to extablish contact with them first. The cool reception that Efiero got so far is not encouraging. I sent an inquiry and have yet to hear back from them.

I've been reading up on the specs for some of their systems and these are mostly industrial motors, but some are also intended for mobile traction.


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## neljoshua (Oct 21, 2008)

I have emailed them, and got similar info as to what was already given. At this point, it does not look like their controllers have regen. They are also twice as expensive as a similar Kelly controller I am looking at (KBL12401H) http://www.kellycontroller.com/mot/Brushless-DC-Motor-Controller.html.

I am thinking about buying the DL-15B5 motor from M&C and the controller from Kelly.

I emailed M&C about warranty and returns about 10 min ago. I will post their response.


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## neljoshua (Oct 21, 2008)

Good morning, all. Here is the reply regarding warranty from M&C:

Dear Mr Joshua Nelson,

1.Motor and controller ,quality warranty 1 year.(remarks:not man broken)

2.Warranty policy:

a)We will complete some wearing parts for your changing in case these parts on the motor was broken. eg.Accelerator,Pedal plate,electric relay....
b)Order quantity more than 50 pcs,(2% * order quantity) pcs will be shipped together as backup.
eg,If purcase quantity reach 50 pcs,we will send one more as backup in case of any piece is broken.
c) Within 1 year,if any quality problem occurs,we will bear repair even change. The customer will bear the freight charge send back to us ,We will bear the freight charge resend to customer.

The above information is as the warranty policy for our brushless motor and controller
Any further demand or request please contact me 
Hope our service is favorable for you 
Looking forward to your reply

Thanks
Best regards

Not unfavorable, but not stellar--what I expected.

At this point, I am planning to order one of these motors. I need to check the wiring on the hal effect output device.


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

Do you know the specifics of the motor you will get yet?

I've just started a dialogue with a contact as well, but still waiting for some more detailed info.


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## neljoshua (Oct 21, 2008)

Yeah. I am getting their 15kW motor (DL-15B5). Voltage is 144V, power is 15kW (30kW peak), speed is 4500 rpm, torque is 31.8 Nm, it is air-cooled, and weights 48 kg.

I was quoted at a little less than $1000 (before shipping).


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

Wow, I'm getting some encouraging info on my end too. This is a candy store!


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## neljoshua (Oct 21, 2008)

Yeah, I know. I'm pretty stoked about this.

I hope to buy my motor this week. They are confirming that they will indeed be able to ship it that quickly.


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## Efiero (Feb 7, 2009)

glad to see that you are getting a good price and hope that the prices on the batteries come down


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## ftaffy (Mar 13, 2009)

Let us know how you get on! I am very interested as i will be buying a 9" in the next couple of months.


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## neljoshua (Oct 21, 2008)

Just purchased this morning. They have a Paypal account; that makes me feel better than doing a wire transfer.

According to Jamie (my contact), there is a 15 day lead time and it will take 3-4 days to ship via DHL.

I will let you all know when it comes in. I hope to buy a Kelly controller this week as well.

Now, if I could just get the donor car sorted out...


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

neljoshua said:


> Yeah. I am getting their 15kW motor (DL-15B5). Voltage is 144V, power is 15kW (30kW peak), speed is 4500 rpm, torque is 31.8 Nm, it is air-cooled, and weights 48 kg.
> 
> I was quoted at a little less than $1000 (before shipping).


31.8 Nm or 23.5 ft-lbs out of a 105 lb motor?? That sounds really bad, am I missing something?


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

I take it no one else was able to find anything.

Well, heres what I was able to find. I think this is the company that is supplying most of the motors shown earlier in the thread:

http://www.tsxdl.cn/eindex.asp

They are mostly industrial motors, but the water cooled motors are easily among the best I have ever seen for power/weight and size ratio. Only problem is then are all intended for 320V. I'm kicking myself for going with 144v but I had no way of knowing these motors even existed when I ordered the battery. but such is life.....check out the efficiency in particular.

http://www.tsxdl.cn/show.asp?Shop_ID=250

The "super speed" motors are also interesting because of the higher RPM and even higher power to weight ratio. Such a motor should be easily adapted to run a fixed ratio gearbox to allow a simpler powertrain without limiting top speed. Technologic, you might like the smaller ones since you don't need a very powerful motor anyway.

http://www.tsxdl.cn/show.asp?Shop_ID=263

The website has chinese and english versions, but the chinese has more actual data on their motor lines so I linked to those pages for showing the specific motors (google can translate some of it). Once you explore the website in english its not hard to navigate the chinese version to get a better idea of what their product range is like. Whats nice is they show a motor frame and the dimensions, then listed underneath are the different versions that are available within that frame. Only thing that is still not quite clear is what the size of their controllers are. Most of the motors seem to be rare earth, possibly explaining the small size relative to power and weight.

While chatting with a sales rep through alibaba, she explained that custom motor design might be possible so I'm going to ask about having a water cooled motor set up for 144V. Fingers crossed.


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

Not sure if anyone is still following this thread, but I have some updates.

No custom motor, but I think what I picked will do well enough. I asked for a formal invoice and I'll take if from there, but so far so good. Here's what I settled on:

Water cooled PM BLDC motor (All their BLDC motors seem to be rare earth)
20kw constant, 40kw peak (I suspect the motor can take more, but the controller will be the limiter)
I requested 144-172 range
regen,
motor size 9.6" diameter 15.75" length (including shaft)
105lbs
6000 RPM max
Efficiency is claimed to be in the mid 90s (all the other water cooled motors were listed at ~96% efficiency)

The controller is a little more bulky than a humble curtis and weighs a little more too, but considering there won't be external relays and less external wiring, it will be comparable for space and weight.

The motor/drive package will probably work out to under 140lbs combined. Not too bad considering a warp 9" is 160lbs for just the motor.

Its not as much power as I wanted, but I would rather have range than power and on closer consideration, the lack of regen with a warP could even be a safety liability if I ever drive this car to the local ski hills. Best guess is that my car might not need much more than 20Hp to hold freeway speed on flat ground. I hope I'm right but we shall see.

They will custom build a motor and controller to your specs, but the price can more than double.

Fellow DIY'ers.......... for future reference, GO WITH 320V!!!!!!!!! 

Motors in the 90lb-120lb range are available off the shelf that go up to 90Hp and 130Hp peak respectively. I've contacted nearly a dozen different distributors in china since I found this thread, and that is the magic voltage for all of them. Now that lithium is affordable, its not an unreasonable voltage to aim for and prices are typically in the $6000 range or less (you can sometimes haggle). If only I knew when I requested my 144V battery

The company I am dealing with now has been in business for a few years but only been exporting since 2008, so it looks like I just missed that revelation. Better next time I guess.

Anyway, I hope the info helps somebody.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

The downside with 320 volts is that the charger will probably be significantly more expensive, and the BMS will be more complicated and more expensive as well.
What is the price of the motor and controller you're getting? How much for shipping?


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## neljoshua (Oct 21, 2008)

Ok. I got my motor last Friday. All looks good, but I will not be able to test it for a bit, as finals are coming up next week. Overall, my motor was $1000 with $300 shipping.


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

Shipping will be combined with a piece of equipment from a nearby city (they offered to stuff it in the same package since there is extra volume left over inside), so that should be very little on top of the quoted price. I'll have to double check but I think the shipping for the CNC machine was $300 to vancouver by sea. The informal quote came to $3660 controller included, but I am waiting for the formal quote to see what comes with that. It would be a decent price for a medium voltage BLDC motor/controller package with regen and water cooling. 

I'm not worried about the charger. 144V nominal is mostly an american thing as I'm finding out (ADC and warP). It works well for brushed motors that are powered by lead but as you can see warp is pushing that farther back to 192V. The chinese prefer to use brushless motors that are 240V and up for the power that most of us want(30Hp constant or higher). Actually, I don't think I found a single brushed motor in this recent chinese search. All BLDC, or 3ph AC.

Since most chinese cars and busses are now being powered by lithium batteries, I would expect there are chargers to go with them. I am speculating, but I am resonably sure of this. I don't think getting a charger and BMS would be a big deal and it would probably still be a fixed % of the battery cost even at higher voltages. If not, you might be getting overcharged.

If a more powerful controller becomes available later on, an upgrade might be possible for me. Brushless motors are limited only by heat, so the more cooling you have, the more power it can put out. There are no windings on the rotor to heat up and the stator windings are water cooled.

20kw (maybe 22kw) seems to be the limit before you have to go higher than 144V with chinese suppliers and not have a custom package put together.

neljoshua, what will you be doing for a controller?


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## neljoshua (Oct 21, 2008)

I purchased a Kelly KBL120401H. You can see the specs on it here:
http://www.kellycontroller.com/mot/Brushless-DC-Motor-Controller.html.
I liked the Kelly because it has regen built in and it fit within my budget. In addition, one of my profs (I am a grad student at Purdue) recently built an electric bike. He used a Kelly controller, BLDC motor, and is incorporating regen. He seems pleased with his controller thus far. Of course, his stuff is quite a bit smaller.


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## ftaffy (Mar 13, 2009)

neljoshua said:


> I purchased a Kelly KBL120401H. You can see the specs on it here:
> http://www.kellycontroller.com/mot/Brushless-DC-Motor-Controller.html.
> I liked the Kelly because it has regen built in and it fit within my budget. In addition, one of my profs (I am a grad student at Purdue) recently built an electric bike. He used a Kelly controller, BLDC motor, and is incorporating regen. He seems pleased with his controller thus far. Of course, his stuff is quite a bit smaller.


Just a quick note, be sure to check the controller for its output vs rated output. We had some issues last year and ended up getting a curtis. Less options but real power.

Interested to hear what you guys think of your motors, could be a cheap option. Could also get 2 for the price of a warp


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## bobgratonii (Jan 10, 2009)

I contacted M&C to have an invoice on a motor, i really want regen on my project so i investigate.

I asked, and here are the prices :

-Accel pedal 73 USD
-Motor cooling Kit 295 USD
-Water cooled BLDC motor, 320V, 35kW, 67NM, water cooled, 60kg, 1760 USD
-Controler to go with the motor, also water cooled (via the kit also) 3823 USD

Shipping ia DHL air to montreal is estimate to 650 USD, for a 91KG package.
total of +/- 6600 USD for the kit, 50% being for the controler alone.

All the prices sustain me beside the controler price, all i need to find now is a charger to charge a 320volt pack, must be expensive. I would suit 100x100aHa 3,2volt bateries cells to match the motor. 

I think this is a good find, and for my opinion, water cooled engines are closed and are less likely to suffer from dust and rocks that flow under the car, this gives a +. Also, the Temp sensor could be put into the prestone flow line to give a better idea of the whole motor temperature.

What do you think?


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

Thats not a bad price for a single order, but be sure to ask for the overal size and weight of both motor and controller just to make sure the size isn't too big.

Bear with me since cut and paste didn't work to post the info in the thread.

30kw 320V 5000rpm 57.3Nm 115Nm 60KW 56A 110A 96.1% 40kg

50kw 320V 6000rpm 79.6Nm 160Nm 100KW 94A 198A 96.3% 50kg 


 
Thats what my contact is able to get me (other sizes available in between), but I had to go with a 144V motor. I think its the factory that supplies the website mentioned here. The 50kw motor/controller setup came to about $7000USD, but man, what a package it would be! 50kw constant rated?

My guess is the 30 kw would be cheaper. and that would be a lot of power for a 90lb motor!


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## bobgratonii (Jan 10, 2009)

I attached the specs in size of the controller and the motor,

As you will see, because it's water-cooled, the motor is wider as the water as to flow arround the motor.

Motor size : 12 inch diameter x 15 1/2 inch long 
(netgain Wrap9 = 16inch long x 9 inch diameter) so the difference is the diameter.

Controler size : 18 5/7(L) x 12 1/2(W) x 7 1/4(H) inch



> 50kw 320V 6000rpm 79.6Nm 160Nm 100KW 94A 198A 96.3% 50kg
> 
> 
> > 320V x 200ah, it takes a LOT of batteries! I mean you have to build a pack of 320volt (assuming we go with lithium) it takes 100 batteries to acheive that. x 200A to allow normal operation of the motor it makes 64kw of batteries. At 1.1$/aha .. +/- 22 000$ for the pack alone and a weight of 900 kilo


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

I was quoted for a motor once that was something like 20" (not including shaft) long with 10" diameter and weighed 68kg, but I think you were quoted for a decent motor. 60kg is a little on the heavy side, but it should work nicely. The controller will probably be in the 20kg range. Just make sure you can fit that 12" diameter.


Here are the motors I was referring to earlier:

http://www.tsxdl.cn/show.asp?Shop_ID=250

They are a little smaller and lighter but the one you found should still work nicely.


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

bobgratonii said:


> 320V x 200ah, it takes a LOT of batteries! I mean you have to build a pack of 320volt (assuming we go with lithium) it takes 100 batteries to acheive that. x 200A to allow normal operation of the motor it makes 64kw of batteries. At 1.1$/aha .. +/- 22 000$ for the pack alone and a weight of 900 kilo


Sorry my info wasn't very clear. 196 amp is the peak rating of the biggest motor (50kw/100kw peak), so 200ah cells are not needed. My lithium cells are 5C rated, so 200ah cells could put out 1000amps peak which is a major overkill.

In reality, you could get away with 40 ah cells to get the 200 amp intermittent performance. Although I would make sure you use cells that can at least match the constant rating of the motor, which in my case would mean 100ah cells.


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## Coulomb (Apr 22, 2009)

david85 said:


> 30kw 320V 5000rpm 57.3Nm 115Nm 60KW 56A 110A 96.1% 40kg
> 
> 50kw 320V 6000rpm 79.6Nm 160Nm 100KW 94A 198A 96.3% 50kg



You seem to be talking as if these motors will run off 320 VDC. I think that this is a mistranslation. I think it's 320 V RMS phase to phase, with line current of 94 A RMS (per phase, for the 50 kW motor). So that's a total of
320 * 94 * sqrt(3) = 52,100 W electrical, or 51,200 * 96.3/100 = 50,172 W mechanical.

Think about it: it can't be 94A DC times 320 A DC: that's only 320 * 94 = 30,080 W.

So in fact, you'll need a DC bus of at least 320 * sqrt(2) = 453V. I saw a figure of 460 VDC on another Chinese site, which probably uses these same motors. The extra 7 volts will get eaten up by IGBT Vce drops.

But 320 V 3-phase is an unusual voltage, so I could be wrong.

People expecting to run these motors on a Curtis controller: do Curtis make an AC controller capable of outputting 320 V RMS phase to phase? I thought their AC controllers were quite low voltage.

These sure sound like nice motors; good and compact, light weight, and efficient. The only thing is the limited (100%) overload for 3 minutes.

I'm not convinced that you can overload these motors by more than what the manufacturer says with enough cooling; surely with a synchronous motor, there comes a point where the motor simply can't keep up, and loses synch. I think this would be more dramatic on a synchronous motor than on say an induction motor, where I'm told it's a bit like the clutch slipping in a conventional oil burning vehicle. Again, I don't know much about these motors, so I could be wrong, so flame away if you know otherwise.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Coulomb said:


> People expecting to run these motors on a Curtis controller: do Curtis make an AC controller capable of outputting 320 V RMS phase to phase? I thought their AC controllers were quite low voltage.


Curtis AC controllers top out at 108 DC nominal input, cutoff around 130, but I didn't see anyone mention using a Curtis on these higher voltage motors.


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## Coulomb (Apr 22, 2009)

neljoshua said:


> I hope to buy a Kelly controller this week as well.


Ah, neljoshua is the one getting the 144 V motor, my mistake.


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

Coulomb said:


> You seem to be talking as if these motors will run off 320 VDC. I think that this is a mistranslation. I think it's 320 V RMS phase to phase, with line current of 94 A RMS (per phase, for the 50 kW motor). So that's a total of
> 320 * 94 * sqrt(3) = 52,100 W electrical, or 51,200 * 96.3/100 = 50,172 W mechanical.
> 
> Think about it: it can't be 94A DC times 320 A DC: that's only 320 * 94 = 30,080 W.
> ...


LOL, why would we flame? you are not even close to being offensive

The chart for the motor has 320V listed under "battery voltage". 320V is a standard for all of these motors, from a few different manufacturers in china. These motors also use hall effect sensors so I don't think slipping will be an issue because the controller will automatically syncronize to whatever condition the motor is run at. Thats the whole point of BLDC motors.

Oh, and welcome to the forum!


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## Coulomb (Apr 22, 2009)

david85 said:


> The chart for the motor has 320V listed under "battery voltage". 320V is a standard for all of these motors, from a few different manufacturers in China.


Yes, in the English translation.

Maybe they use effectively square waves on the motor, so 320 VDC can produce almost 320 VRMS AC. The current would still be per phase, and would still split like a sine wave, (or the voltage will, if it's wired star) so there is still a factor of sqrt(3). I think that would make the motors a bit rough at very low RPM.



> These motors also use hall effect sensors so I don't think slipping will be an issue because the controller will automatically syncronize to whatever condition the motor is run at. That's the whole point of BLDC motors.


Duh, of course. But the higher power level is listed as "locked power", which has to be electrical (since mechanical power at zero RPM is zero). So I wonder what the peak mechanical power would be. For example, can you get almost 100 kW mechanical from the 50 kW (continuous) motor, for half a minute or so?

I've seen a power curve showing ruler-straight power from zero to nominal or exactly-twice nominal power, and ruler-straight constant power from that frequency to the RPM limit. Is that how these motors would actually perform? Surely there is an issue of saturation of the stator involved, which would make real-world performance deviate from this idea?



> Oh, and welcome to the forum!


Thanks!


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## weber (Apr 22, 2009)

Coulomb said:


> Maybe they use effectively square waves on the motor, so 320 VDC can produce almost 320 VRMS AC. The current would still be per phase, and would still split like a sine wave, (or the voltage will, if it's wired star) so there is still a factor of sqrt(3). I think that would make the motors a bit rough at very low RPM.


So called BLDC motors (perm mag AC) usually have trapezoidal waveforms, not sine or square. 60 degree flats on top and bottom. The RMS to peak ratio for this is sqrt(1.8) rather than sqrt(2) (only 5% different).

I recommend this article on induction vs. brushless DC by Wally Rippel, Tesla Motors engineer.
http://www.teslamotors.com/blog4/?p=45

Coulomb and Weber work together.


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## CFreeman54 (Jan 14, 2009)

Good Grief, these motors are heavy! The 200 KW one is 350 kg. Thats 770 pounds!!!! Tesla's motor is similar hp and it weighs only about 120 lbs. There seems to be a big difference in technology.


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## celsomenaia (Jul 26, 2007)

hello

As far as I know the prices for the M&C Motors sounds great, let see if it all goes ok with neljoshua and the kelly controller, to see if I buy one also  

Best regards


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## Nomad (May 8, 2009)

Maybe I'm missing something... but did anyone else see the 100 batteries coming in at a whopping 700Kg's? 1540lbs???!?!??!?! How.. Where.. would you mount these?


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

Nomad said:


> Maybe I'm missing something... but did anyone else see the 100 batteries coming in at a whopping 700Kg's? 1540lbs???!?!??!?! How.. Where.. would you mount these?


I think I missed something here. How did you arrive at such a high weight? Are you assuming lead acid or lithium batteries?


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## Coulomb (Apr 22, 2009)

Nomad said:


> Maybe I'm missing something... but did anyone else see the 100 batteries coming in at a whopping 700Kg's?


100 of SE 100 Ah Lithium batteries comes to 100 x 3.1 = 310 kg (about 700 pounds?). A fair bit, but manageable.

http://www.skyenergy.com.cn/EnProductShow.asp?ID=14


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## Nomad (May 8, 2009)

Coulomb said:


> 100 of SE 100 Ah Lithium batteries comes to 100 x 3.1 = 310 kg (about 700 pounds?). A fair bit, but manageable.
> 
> http://www.skyenergy.com.cn/EnProductShow.asp?ID=14


I was using the weight from the 200ah batteries.


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## Nomad (May 8, 2009)

bobgratonii said:


> 320V x 200ah, it takes a LOT of batteries! I mean you have to build a pack of 320volt (assuming we go with lithium) it takes 100 batteries to acheive that. x 200A to allow normal operation of the motor it makes 64kw of batteries. At 1.1$/aha .. +/- 22 000$ for the pack alone and a weight of 900 kilo




This is why I used the weight for the 200ah bats.


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## Coulomb (Apr 22, 2009)

Ah. I think bobgratonii is confusing amps and amp-hours. 100 Ah batteries can dish out 300 - 400 amps continuously (for under a third to under a quarter of an hour respectively), so they would be big enough. 64 kWh of battery is extraordinarily generous (32 kWh is pretty good, too; 60 Ah cells would be plenty for this application).

With higher voltage, you use smaller cells, but more of them.


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## Nomad (May 8, 2009)

Coulomb said:


> Ah. I think bobgratonii is confusing amps and amp-hours. 100 Ah batteries can dish out 300 - 400 amps continuously (for under a third to under a quarter of an hour respectively), so they would be big enough. 64 kWh of battery is extraordinarily generous (32 kWh is pretty good, too; 60 Ah cells would be plenty for this application).
> 
> With higher voltage, you use smaller cells, but more of them.


I've been reading for days and I still have no idea where to start LOL.


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## abudabit (Sep 18, 2008)

For the people who ordered, how are the motors doing?


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

abudabit said:


> For the people who ordered, how are the motors doing?


Mine was on the boat only a couple of days ago. Should arrive in about a month. 20kw constant, 40kw peak, with controller rated for 144V-172V. Motor and controller should be about 150lbs combined from what I was told.

I'll post updates as they come in.


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## tomofreno (Mar 3, 2009)

What vehicle are you installing this in - what curb weight? Sounds like a nice way to go. I'll be very interested in your results. I purchased a wound rotor AC motor, but these appear to have about 12% or so higher efficiency.

Tom


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

Its going into a 1996 satrun SL1. Curb weight will probably be close to 3000lbs when completed.

EDIT:

I should mention that my motor came from a supplier in Ta'an, china which I believe to be a supplier to china electric motor.com. They are only exporting starting this year. 144V is also not a preferred voltage and they went through hell to try and build one for me with enough power. We'll see how it works when it arrives.

Its based on a cast iron industrial frame from what I can tell, and the efficiency is supposed to be in the mid 90s. Had I used 320V, the motor frame would have actually been smaller and lighter because of lower amperage.

As I mentioned in many other instances, I advise planning around a 320V system voltage if you want to try and order a BLDC motor from a chinese supplier like this and have the power you want. Thats what I'll be doing next time because they all seem to have settled on 320V instead of 144 like our domestic conversion scene.


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## Nomad (May 8, 2009)

40kw Power
228V Voltage
3500 rpm RPMS
109Nm Rated Torque
230Nm Locked Torque
86KW Locked Power
203.5A Rated Current
380A Locked Current
94.7% Eff

So if I'm understanding this correctly.
My current Torque with the ICE is around 185 ft.lbs. 
So to replace for AC would be 230Nm*.73=170ft/lbs

And this setup would required 71(*1.10 for DOD)~80 LiFePo4 Batteries? @ 60AP Assuming 5C Rating.

2400 lbs curbweight (EV) This setup would yeild a range of ??? I'm still clueless on how to figure this out. cD is .3


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## tomofreno (Mar 3, 2009)

"they all seem to have settled on 320V instead of 144 like our domestic conversion scene."

Most of the wound rotor AC motors in the US use around 320VDC for the preferred wye connected configuration which gives higher efficiency than delta connected. The stator of a BLDC is essentially the same as a wound rotor 3 phase AC motor, so seems similar voltage as in the US. I guess you are considering 144V for series DC motors. Fifty HP peak seems low for a 3000 lb vehicle, guess you were limited by the 144V.


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

tomofreno said:


> "they all seem to have settled on 320V instead of 144 like our domestic conversion scene."
> 
> Most of the wound rotor AC motors in the US use around 320VDC for the preferred wye connected configuration which gives higher efficiency than delta connected. The stator of a BLDC is essentially the same as a wound rotor 3 phase AC motor, so seems similar voltage as in the US. I guess you are considering 144V for series DC motors. Fifty HP peak seems low for a 3000 lb vehicle, guess you were limited by the 144V.


Yup. All true.......though you don't need 50 Hp to keep a car of that size rolling so I'm hoping for acceptable performance in my black jelly bean. Next car will be at least 320V.

Most conversions in north america are 144V give or take because those higher voltage AC motors are just too expensive (if they are even available). The company I ordered from only started exporting this year.....after I ordered my 144V battery but having regen and higher efficiency than a forklift motor was a trade off I was willing to make (I had to choose between power or range).

Hope it turns out well, but we'll have to wait and see


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## Nomad (May 8, 2009)

david85 said:


> Mine was on the boat only a couple of days ago. Should arrive in about a month. 20kw constant, 40kw peak, with controller rated for 144V-172V. Motor and controller should be about 150lbs combined from what I was told.
> 
> I'll post updates as they come in.




This I can't wait for.


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## 44depot (Jun 19, 2009)

Here are some prices


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## mjcrow (Jan 5, 2008)

44depot, i can't seem to find the motor in the pdf on their website, do you have the details on max power and torque for that motor? Also is 288V the operating voltage or the Battery voltage?


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## Jokerzwild (Jun 11, 2009)

Any update on this?
How are the motors doing?


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

Tested mine with no load and everything seems to work. Been sitting on the shelf for about a month since then because work has been so busy I haven't even touched the car.


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## Efiero (Feb 7, 2009)

Hi I see that a few have bought motors I wish I culd have bought a motor. i am glad that i started this thread and you guys are taking advantage of it all. good luck and lets see some runing cars


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## wannabe (Aug 21, 2009)

Has anyone dealt with this guy?

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/e...70434239353&ssPageName=ADME:X:RTQ:MOTORS:1123

He seems to be selling the package some of you have been referencing in this thread.

S.


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

wannabe said:


> Has anyone dealt with this guy?
> 
> http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/e...70434239353&ssPageName=ADME:X:RTQ:MOTORS:1123
> 
> ...


 
I never heard of him before so I really can't say.

These are most certainly chinese motors though. Here's his website:

http://store03.prostores.com/servle...s-DC-Motors-&-Speed-Control-Combos/Categories

I don't suppose there's anyone nearby that could pay him a visit?


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## wannabe (Aug 21, 2009)

He is in Irvine. I am above LAX. That's about 45min away. I asked if I would be able to come down and examine the motor and controller as I would really like to buy the combo.

His response was:
"Thanks for your interest, but no.

-nyturtle2bja"

Which made me VERY suspicious.

The motors and controllers seem to be sourced from the same 
China motor manufacturers mentioned in this thread.

I want to thank you guys. Using the links you guys provided I 
have since found the contact information so I know the equipment is 
not fake. Just mulling over the prospect of having to order 
from the source.

S.


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

I see......good call on your part. Good luck with who ever you end up buying from. Have to be careful no matter where the sellers are.

Welcome to the forum


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

wannabe said:


> "Thanks for your interest, but no.
> 
> -nyturtle2bja"


Probably some guy working out of his basement or something, sounds sketchy.


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## thetod (Oct 27, 2008)

Any word on how the BLDC motor from China is working with the Kelly controller? 



neljoshua said:


> I purchased a Kelly KBL120401H. You can see the specs on it here:
> http://www.kellycontroller.com/mot/Brushless-DC-Motor-Controller.html.
> I liked the Kelly because it has regen built in and it fit within my budget. In addition, one of my profs (I am a grad student at Purdue) recently built an electric bike. He used a Kelly controller, BLDC motor, and is incorporating regen. He seems pleased with his controller thus far. Of course, his stuff is quite a bit smaller.


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## elmerfud (Oct 29, 2008)

Any update on this ?


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## mulderfox (Aug 4, 2014)

Any update on this?


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## PThompson509 (Jul 9, 2009)

For what its worth, I have a BLDC motor and controller from Greatland Electric - I bought it back in 2011. It is an 80kw peak motor and has a matching controller. My pack is 370v. The picture of it on M&C is identical, as are the specs.

So, the good news is that it works - I can drive with it, and it produces the power that I want. The bad news is that there is so much noise in the controller that any output from it is useless. 

I'll be saving up some money for a new controller, as the chinese controller can't really handle high voltage.


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## mulderfox (Aug 4, 2014)

Thank you very much for your reply.
I really interesting in your building because I always order stuff from china and would like to follow you build.

I went to there web site 
and there are 2 motors in AC induction motor
http://www.glelec.com/en/product_category.asp?id=2








with a spec DC)：320
(Nm)：180
(Nm)：48
(KW)：30
(KW)：20
(rpm)：3000








and 2 in permanent magnet motor
http://www.glelec.com/en/product_category.asp?id=3
with a spec
Product Name：GLMP60L0
Battery voltage(DC)：384
Maximum torque(Nm)：600
Rated torque(Nm)：186
Maximum Power(KW)：90
Rated Power(KW)：45
Maximum speed(rpm)：2300


which one the you bought may I ask?

Is it possible for you to provide a specification of that brush-less motor you bought compare to the KOSTOV 11" 

K11" 192V 2200 USD 192V 250A 73Nm 40.4kW

thank you very much sir ^^


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## PThompson509 (Jul 9, 2009)

The model of motor is the GLMP25L1 (from Great Lands Motor).

I found the user manual and it has the following specs:
Rated power: 40kW
Peak power: 80 kW
Peak torque: 250N.m
Rated speed: 0 to 5000rpm
Weight: 88kg

The controller is the GLCP7024L11.
Max power: 100kVA
Rated voltage: 288V
Max voltage: 400V
Rated current: 105A
Max current: 330A
Weight: 11kg

The images you posted are a different model from what I saw on the website, so it is quite possible I was mistaken. In any case, the motor works fine - it is software limited to 4000RPM. The controller does to regen, but only if the pack voltage is 345V or less. I suspect that due to the high voltage of my pack, the controller is not able to do noise control properly.

Hmm, it appears that the model I have has been replaced by the GLMP25L5. 
Cheers, Peter


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## mulderfox (Aug 4, 2014)

Do you mind to share the price?


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## PThompson509 (Jul 9, 2009)

Had to dig through my receipts. The total was $6500 including shipping, paid March 15, 2011. I bought it through a 3rd party in the hopes I would get good local service (however, I bought it through CurrentEVTech.com, so that should tell you the rest of the story - at least I got the hardware). I seem to recall I paid another $600 at the customs office, but I can't find that receipt.

Cheers!


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## mulderfox (Aug 4, 2014)

Thank you very much 
look at the price combine with my understanding about electric equipment
I may have to go back to my first plan
the Kostov 10" 1750 USD + Zilla1Khv 2595 USD 
which I guess I can come here to ask for an advice.

Anyway I v already sent those Chinese companies some email.
I will put more information about their 2014 bldc motor here
in case that someone may interest.


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## PThompson509 (Jul 9, 2009)

Best of luck! The Zilla is a great controller, and the Kostov motors have a good reputation.

My reason for going with BLDC - cooling. I live in San Diego which gets quite hot in summer. I need liquid cooling to keep the motor and controller from overheating. I imagine that there is a similar problem in Thailand, but perhaps not as bad.

Definitely invest in a blower fan for the Kostov and make sure that the controller does not overheat as well.

Cheers!


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## mulderfox (Aug 4, 2014)

PThompson509 said:


> Best of luck! The Zilla is a great controller, and the Kostov motors have a good reputation.
> 
> My reason for going with BLDC - cooling. I live in San Diego which gets quite hot in summer. I need liquid cooling to keep the motor and controller from overheating. I imagine that there is a similar problem in Thailand, but perhaps not as bad.
> 
> ...


Oh! thank you for that input. I also may have to arrange my own heat sink+water cooling around the equipment under the hood.
I wish you can find a better controller soon haha who know I may walk the same route as you the BLDC is for sure the future of hobbiest EV owner.


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## PThompson509 (Jul 9, 2009)

The Zilla is a fine piece of equipment, almost as good as the Soliton. 

If you search the various EV Vendors, you will find lots of cooling options for the Zilla and the Kostov. If you get stuck, ask here.


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## mulderfox (Aug 4, 2014)

PThompson509 said:


> Best of luck! The Zilla is a great controller, and the Kostov motors have a good reputation.
> 
> My reason for going with BLDC - cooling. I live in San Diego which gets quite hot in summer. I need liquid cooling to keep the motor and controller from overheating. I imagine that there is a similar problem in Thailand, but perhaps not as bad.
> 
> ...





PThompson509 said:


> The Zilla is a fine piece of equipment, almost as good as the Soliton.
> 
> If you search the various EV Vendors, you will find lots of cooling options for the Zilla and the Kostov. If you get stuck, ask here.


Actually I really need some advice from you

I am following PLASMA-BOY WHITE ZOMBIE late 1999 build

he used
11 inch Kostov 
28x12 volt Hawker Genesis 16ahr @ 336V nominal,
Godzilla 1200 amp programable controller

I will use
11 inch Kostov
90x3.2 A123 288V 20Ah (20C continuous rate)
Godzilla 1000 amp programable controller

Do you think I am ok with that
should increase the battery in to 40Ah?

thank you ^^


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## PThompson509 (Jul 9, 2009)

mulderfox said:


> Actually I really need some advice from you
> 
> I am following PLASMA-BOY WHITE ZOMBIE late 1999 build
> 
> ...


20Ah with 20C will give you 400A. That may not be adequate. If you go for 40Ah, that will give you 800A. 800A should be fine for this setup.


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## mulderfox (Aug 4, 2014)

PThompson509 said:


> 20Ah with 20C will give you 400A. That may not be adequate. If you go for 40Ah, that will give you 800A. 800A should be fine for this setup.


Thank you very much
After talk to the battery company
I will go with 100pack 50S2P 160V 40AH A123 
and will use Kostov K10 144V.

I really don't understand how Zilla Controller works but from what I v been reading. It can limit the Voltage and transfer it in to current which some how even reach 1000amp at the low rpm. 
Need to spend more time here I guess.

Ps The Chinese company just replied me and asked me to pinpoint the rpm voltage I want.


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## mulderfox (Aug 4, 2014)

PThompson509 said:


> 20Ah with 20C will give you 400A. That may not be adequate. If you go for 40Ah, that will give you 800A. 800A should be fine for this setup.


Ok they sent me the quotation 

The FOB price of 320VDC/ 25KW/ 4500rpm BLDC motor + controller is $4000.
Main specifications
Rated power (kW)
25kW
Rated speed (rpm)
4500rpm
Price
$4000 (including the controller)
Rated torque (Nm):
53Nm
Rated voltage (V):
320Vdc
Rated current (A):
78A
Max continuous current (A)
156A
Max continuous torque (Nm)
106Nm
Insulation Class:
H
Protection Class
IP54
Efficiency（﹥%）
95%
Cooling
Air cooling Mechanical specifications
Installation
Horizontal
Frame size
Y132
Weight (Kg)
60 Materials
Shaft material
Steel
Bearings
Steel
Casing material
Iron
Winding material
Copper
Winding temperature level
180℃
Magnet
NdFeB
Magnet temperature level
150℃
Core
Cold rolled silicon steel sheet


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## PThompson509 (Jul 9, 2009)

Hmmm. 25kw motor is not comparable to the Kostov 11" with Zilla controller. I think you would be very disappointed with that BLDC motor. 

The reason I think that is that I upgraded from a 20kw motor to my 40kw (80kw peak) motor. If you need power, 25kw just won't be enough to move your car very fast (think getting on the freeway).

Well, that's my opinion in any case.


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## mulderfox (Aug 4, 2014)

PThompson509 said:


> Hmmm. 25kw motor is not comparable to the Kostov 11" with Zilla controller. I think you would be very disappointed with that BLDC motor.
> 
> The reason I think that is that I upgraded from a 20kw motor to my 40kw (80kw peak) motor. If you need power, 25kw just won't be enough to move your car very fast (think getting on the freeway).
> 
> Well, that's my opinion in any case.


Totally agree with you ^^


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## ps2chiper (Sep 1, 2014)

Hey guys, I just found this forum earlier this week. I am an expat in shenzhen and I love the idea of electric car conversions. I saw that chinese electric motor company is in my city. I will try and check them out and get some quotes. Their factory is about 20KM from my house.


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