# Propane Heater



## TX_Dj (Jul 25, 2008)

The problem I see with this is that it's illegal to carry propane for use on a vehicle that isn't stored in a DOT approved tank. How/when this might become an issue considering it's not the vehicle's fuel source and not an RV, I don't know... but it's worth mentioning.

I'd bet the 12v pump draws far less power than a heating element, though!


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## jlsawell (Apr 4, 2008)

TX_Dj said:


> The problem I see with this is that it's illegal to carry propane for use on a vehicle that isn't stored in a DOT approved tank. How/when this might become an issue considering it's not the vehicle's fuel source and not an RV, I don't know... but it's worth mentioning.
> 
> I'd bet the 12v pump draws far less power than a heating element, though!


This is what I'm thinking:








Just got to make sure it has enough power to clear the windscreen...

I've obtained one of those "3 in 1" cigarette lighter ports and connected it to the battery terminals. This way I can run a 12v inverter for my mobile phone charger, a 12v USB power plug for the GPS and if I stuff a heater like this into the heater core, we should be all set...

Need to check there's a fuse in that plug, but if there's not, I can always splice one into the cable between the plug and the unit.


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## Rumpi (Aug 11, 2008)

I think the best thing woud be a gasoline auto heater. They were designed primarely for trucks, I know of only one unit designed for a small car, and you must be lucky to find one even in its home country (Germany). This things are just like home gasoline heaters, only smaller. They deliver 1,5-2,5KW of heat. They are located outside the passenger compartment and you must duct it in to the cars existing air channeling. But I must confess I dont know if they are still being made or who makes them.


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## TX_Dj (Jul 25, 2008)

Gasoline and Diesel heaters are common as a retro-fit for older vehicles. I've seen VW Beetles with Webasto heaters mounted in the front luggage compartment.

While it would be very nice to have a heat source that doesn't limit your range, it would look a little odd to pull over at a gas station to fill up an electric car.


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## Nodd (Jun 6, 2008)

Rumpi said:


> I think the best thing woud be a gasoline auto heater. They were designed primarely for trucks, I know of only one unit designed for a small car, and you must be lucky to find one even in its home country (Germany). This things are just like home gasoline heaters, only smaller. They deliver 1,5-2,5KW of heat. They are located outside the passenger compartment and you must duct it in to the cars existing air channeling. But I must confess I dont know if they are still being made or who makes them.


*
Gasoline in my EV? NEVER!*
I don't think I'm the only one who might have a problem using gasoline in an otherwise squeaky clean EV. Seems like a step in the wrong direction. But at the amounts a heater would burn, I suppose its a non issue. Just gives me the willies is all. *shudders at the thought*


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## Rumpi (Aug 11, 2008)

I apologise to all members for the heretical proposal of using the devils juice. I just dont make any difference between propane gas and the other devlish substances since most propane is a byproduct of the same processing industry. 

Maybe it would make sense to try to fire a gasoline heater with alcohol or a diesel heater with vegetable oil, then you coud refuel at your local grocery shop and burn a ecological sustainable substance with almost 0 carbon footprint. Would this be more acceptable to the members of this forum? If not, I apologise again and declare that the only viable option for heating is all electric and I will watch over my fingers so that they will never type anything remotly connected to crude or rafined aromatic hidrocarbures.


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## TX_Dj (Jul 25, 2008)

Rumpi,

Don't take offense. Some people here would care, some people here would not. We're all entitled to our opinions, even you.

I do see a difference between gas/diesel and LPG/CNG... Yes, they are all products of the same industry, but LPG/CNG burn far cleaner than gas or diesel.

Also, I'm not so sure that veggie oil would work in a diesel heater, because it works different than a diesel engine. I could be wrong, though.

I'm not interested in burning fuels in my home (other than wood), and have cars I can burn fuel in to make heat, but my EV is going to be fuel-less. Yours is permitted to use some fuel if you want, and several others in the past have employed gas heaters in their EVs. You're entitled to your opinion. Don't take offense if others don't share it... that's just the way of the world.


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## Rumpi (Aug 11, 2008)

TX_Dj,

No offense taken. I was just amused. I mean everyone that takes the huge step of converting a car is entitled to do it as she/he likes. No question about it.

I think vegetable oil can be burned in a diesel heater, maybe the injector must be larger. Steam generating people have done it. I think if someone really wants to do it, he will succeed.
LPG/CNG burns cleaner thats true. But gasoline and diesel also burn much cleaner if not subjected to high pressure in compression. Best of all without explosion there is no forming of highly poisonous chemicals usualy found in ICE exhaust fumes.

Back to the subject of this topic, I think a such a camping hot water device will not deliver enough heat since most domestic hot water is set at around 40 degrees celsius (104 Fahrenheit) and ICE cooling fluid normaly enters a car radiator at around 80-90 degree Celsius (176-194 degree Fahrenheit), wich means that the heating radiator will likely be to small to proper heat up the car. But I could be wrong here, it also depends on what people want, if the car has to be heated from -20 degree celsius (-4 Fahrenheit) to 20 degree Celsius (68 dehree Fahrenheit) its something, if the temperatures are much closer another. 
If someone really implements such a propane heater, then maybe he should also think about air conditioning via propane fired compressor. 
I also know one production electric vehicle (ATW Ligier Optima) that came from the factory with propane heating, but that vehicle is now discontinued. It had an LPG tank behind the driver seat but I didnt found out if it heated air or water.


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## TX_Dj (Jul 25, 2008)

It would be more efficient (IMHO, maybe wrong) to heat air than to heat water and then heat exchange w/ air. I think the reason why the water-heaters in the EV crowd are used is to retain the stock heater core without having to tear apart the dash or be concerned that something will melt in there by getting hotter than the stock heater core. It does have an interesting elegance to it.


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## Nodd (Jun 6, 2008)

Rumpi said:


> I apologise to all members for the heretical proposal of using the devils juice. I just dont make any difference between propane gas and the other devlish substances since most propane is a byproduct of the same processing industry.


Actually I'm the one who should be apologizing here. I was just poking fun at the idea of using gasoline in an EV. It struck me as funny is all. You should feel free to do whatever works for you & pay no attention to what twits like me say.


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## martinwinlow (Sep 22, 2009)

There are, of course, the butane-powered truck/marine heaters such as this...

http://www.propexheatsource.co.uk/heaters/hs2800

... but this is a bit big for an EV. I guess there must be other, perhaps smaller, ones out there but I favoured the idea of using the disposable butane canisters that screw in rather than a big cylinder. Typically they have about 500g of butane in them - not sure if this would last long enough. There is something more appealing about butane than diesel... MW


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## nerys (Feb 6, 2011)

Anyone get anywhere with this?

I have a little indoor safe propane heater. it works fine for heat but is unusable in my leaf. produces too much water fogs all the windows up (no opening the window does not do a think to clear it) necessitating defrost which defeats the point since that function powers up both the AC and the HEATER in my car :-(

SO the idea is mount the propane heater to my hitch and use it to heat a water tank and plumb water lines to a heater core on the privacy cover with a 12v van.

pump the water through the core fan blows the heat.

suggestions on how to go about this? I can't use my little buddy heater as it is probably not powerful enough and the smallest bump will turn it off under such conditions.

OUCH on the propex. $700!


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

How about a radical solution
Put some warm clothes on!!!


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## nerys (Feb 6, 2011)

been their done that. hey. what Do I know maybe I should not be wearing my shorts and t-shirts when its 3' outside! woops.

Spent some decent cash on "cold weather" clothing (rather expensive at my size) no joy. anything over 10' FINE no problem. once it dips below 10' though things get cold.

oddly enough its not the cold that gets me. its the fogging windows requiring me to them blow kw turning on the damned hvac system.

sure. if I opened up all the windows that might do the trick but then IT WOULD be cold in a bad way and then ICE becomes a problem (no washer fluids don't work the ice is on the INSIDE of the glass!!)

if I can heat up the car not only would it feel better but most important of all the windows would stop fogging.

I am actually thinking about putting defrost elements on the windscreen. would definitely do the trick for sure if I could find someone to do it or figure out how to do it myself effectively.

for delivery I don't care. don't really need the heater not in the car long enough to care get pizza drive deliver drive get new pizza repeat.

but that long commute 54 miles is a bear when its pushing 30 below freezing. especially if I have to open a window or door for any reason. woosh all the trapped heat goes byebye it is a 90 minute ride. the first 45 minutes NO problem. the second 45 minutes starts to get uncomfortable sometimes. no matter HOW warm I dress and I am rather cold tolerant too!

and worse I still have to use some hvac to clear the stinking windscreen quite often.

worse yet I can't just use the AC (much lower power consumption) it also engages the heater and there is no way to stop it from doing that easily.

I tried ALL the defoggers too. they actually work. after you spend an hour applying them (YES it takes that long it is a royal PITA to apply them correctly) and they do actually work.

EXACTLY ONE TIME. meaning you have to apply them DAILY if you windows fog daily like mine doo. they work by sheeting the moisture off but this process ALSO removes the product as well. IE you have to reapply.

I have actually been thinking about trying to rig up a windscreen wiper on the INSIDE of the windscreen. have not figured out quite how to do that yet and it won't work when the inside of the glass ICES over.


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

Hi
I understand what you mean
I question exactly how you are doing it

The best strategy to keep your windscreen clear is to use dry air and only direct it to the screen

So you should have the heater and AC on (dry and heat the air) the screen priority selected and then just enough fan to keep the screen clear 

I would be surprised if that was going to eat enough power to affect your range

The absolute LAST thing you want is a propane heater adding moisture to the air

Solutions
(1) - heated seats - you can get aftermarket seat heaters 
This is the most efficient "car heating" by a long way

(2) - heated motorbike gear - even more efficient

(3) - stick a mains fan heater in the car and get it good and toasty (and dry) before you head off


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## nerys (Feb 6, 2011)

I give up for tonight I just spent 20 minutes voicing a reply on my phone to have the god damn website wipe out the entire message I'll send it tomorrow when I'm less tired.


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## piotrsko (Dec 9, 2007)

I understand your problem.

Solution #1: junkyard 6 gallon propane RV WATER HEATER. MAYBE $50 usd. Fleabay hot water pump 12vdc., bunch of car heater hose. Hook to existing heat system.

Solution 2: JCWitney used to sell stick on 12v replacement rear window defrost grids. Haven't been there in decades. Stick on whatever window you want clear.

Solution 3: wind your own heater grid for fan duct. Jameco has nichrome resistance wire. Use a piece of 1/4 mortar backer board and steel screws.

Solution #4. Tear out the guts of a thrift store toaster, place in ducting of car. Maybe $5 USD.

Solution 5 ( the one I use) steel tank from a blown air compressor, with a welded hot water tank heater bung that fits a hot water tank element. Mine runs either traction voltage or 220 vac through a spare chevy volt mains relay. I didn't have a lot of success using solid state relays.
I plug it in to the charger circuit 15 before I leave. Toasty for 10 miles. Need more? Pull over and switch to traction charge circuit but lose range.

All of these are dual effect suggestions, as there is an ancillary warmth to the interior, some better some not so.


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## nerys (Feb 6, 2011)

the rv water heater is an interesting idea and I might even already have one in a storage trailer I bought.

will it heat the water "fast" enough to transfer heat to the car effectively?

I was thinking of running my own heater core in the back to avoid dickering around with the stock system but that would be IDEAL though I am not sure if the system will permit me to turn on the blower without turning on the HVAC system. I will have to try that and see what the power usage looks like (really janky hvac system in these cars would be great if it had 300miles range but is a real annoyance with sub 80mile range and you want to use it ALL.)

anything electric is out. too much power. Got to head off to work

thank you for the reply! much appreciated. Got to try and remember all of what I typed last night.

apparently I slide the page down to get to the post button which was up at the top on the mobile site and doing this also invoked the "RELOAD" function of the browser so it reloaded the page and wiped out what I had just spent 20 minutes inputing.

Grrrrrr

I said screw it and went to bed


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## piotrsko (Dec 9, 2007)

Go find the wire that goes to the a.c. compressor clutch and put a switch into that control circuit. Usually a relay in the engine compartment but maybe not any more. Turn off compressor clutch, then you don't care if hvac is on. Switch can even be in engine bay because you probably don't ever get an 80 degree temp swing during your trips.

Rv. heater holds 6 gallons at up to 160f. Way overkill unless you also want to take a bath during trip


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## nerys (Feb 6, 2011)

I need the ac to clear the windows. The heater is the problem. Remember these are 400v gizmo's not your typical 12v stuff.

I think their was a way to turn off the heater that ingineer came up with. Vague memory. I will have to look into that.

Wish i could charge 12v faster. Wonder how long a 12v batt would run a 1500watt heater off an inverter. If i can charge it "fast" enough between runs i could power the heater and charge the battery from mains and only need it to be battery powered for about 15 to 30 minutes then back on mains. I suspect however that it will be a losing battle ie unable to recharge the battery fast enough.

Bolt a tripod intk the floor to mount heater on passenger side and aim that bugger at the windscreen. Those buggers are only $10 a pop.


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## cts_casemod (Aug 23, 2012)

piotrsko said:


> Go find the wire that goes to the a.c. compressor clutch and put a switch into that control circuit.


As you know a typical EV doesn't have a belt driven compressor. Well not a leaf. These don't use clutches, but rather a built in motor.

I have a hybrid heating system.

2KW are available straight from the AC supply.
4KW are available from the main pack. This is a 3Phase heater. Two series elements operating from the main pack and the remaining element is wired to the incoming AC Supply. 

When temperatures are really low I have a 5KW Webasto diesel heater. It ramps at full power to warm up the cabin and later throttles back to 2KW to keep it warm.

Using fuel in a car is wasteful, as only 25-30% are effectively converted into useful work. A dedicated heater, however can reach efficiency levels in excess of 80%. For comparison, my unit uses 360ml of fuel to deliver 5KW of thermal energy, roughly 70ml/KW. Even in costs this is about the same as electric. 

As to have a separate heating system to avoid touching the factory setup I've been there, didn't work. I had a heater inside the cabin on my car for a couple of years. The result is a toasty car, with a cold windscreen that quickly fogs. To be really effective the windscreen has to be kept warn and this is normally only possible using the factory vents


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