# NiZn batteries



## Ravishankar (Jan 26, 2009)

Hello,

Does anyone here have experience in using NiZn batteries for an EV conversion ? Curretly 

Xellerion, Inc. 
6 Skyline Drive 
Hawthorne, NY 10532 
646.539.3900 (phone) 
914.345.0450 (fax)

and 

*PowerGenix
*10109 Carroll Canyon Road
San Diego, CA 92131-1109
PHONE: (858) 547-7300
FAX: (858) 547-7301

offer NiZn batteries for EV applications (as far as I could search)


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## DIYguy (Sep 18, 2008)

Reply from PowerGenix follows;

Thank you for your interest in PowerGenix. At this time we are sampling OEM manufacturers only. If your need for batteries in the near future exceeds 100,000 pieces please resend your request with your application requirements.

For hybrid electric vehicle type of applications, PowerGenix is developing a D cell with 8 Ah of capacity for release next year. The feasible range for the D cell in a pack is up to 300V and 1KW – 2KW.

Thank you again for your inquiry and please feel free to send your request for information. We will try to address your inquiry as soon as possible.

Regards,
Gary


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## Joe_L (Sep 17, 2008)

I received the exact same email response. I asked if they would produce a larger format battery... something similar to the current lead acid design that you could series together? Then the "we are making a 1 - 2KW battery response came back"

From their site they show the NiZn is safe and it sounds like it could handle more abuse than Li Ion. Once again, it is not as powerful so you would be looking at a pack similar to a NiMH system. 

I would be interested to see how these batteries would fair in a northern Canadian climate.


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## BWH (Sep 26, 2008)

I've been in touch with Byran Wilson the Director of Business Development at Xellerion. Great guy, very friendly and unwilling to turn me away, but he said they can't really do orders of less than 10,000 right now due to component costs.

It's a shame because these look like great batteries. Lightweight (A 156v pack would weigh in at about 384 lbs.), unaffected by cold temps (Down to -4F), and good for at least 500 charge cycles at 100% DOD with no cell damage. According to their tests anyway.

Here is some info from their technical data sheet:
http://www.reveo.com/us/reveofiles/Xellerion 60 Ah Battery Specification Sheet.pdf

They converted a Honda Insight to a pure EV and were able to get 100 miles per charge out of it. It runs off a 24 battery pack of the above mentioned Xell-08-E60 (65Ah) batteries.

They are also currently working on rechargeable metal fuel cells.

Anyway, if there are any battery distributors listening in around here, pick these up. I've got cash in hand.


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## Joe_L (Sep 17, 2008)

Great information.

In your conversation with Bryan Wilson has he given you price if you can obtain enough people to push your order to the $10,000 mark? On their site they state $150-500 per kWh. I am wondering which side of the balance we would be paying.

Xellerion systems provides a better way to get into AC systems for DIY'ers. Lighter battery packs that can be run to near zero is one less thing to worry about. 

How about charging? Are they similar to flooded lead acid that can take a lot of abuse or do you need a Battery Management System?

Joe


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## BWH (Sep 26, 2008)

Thank you.

I wish it were just $10,000, I'd have a set now if they were.  

If everyone bought 24 batteries we would need 416 people to make the 10,000 unit minimum.

No prices were mentioned. However, I believe the NiZns that were available years ago ran in the $200-$250 range. I'm going to guess that these will be comparable.

NiZn batteries have been in and out of use since at least the 1930's so it's not a new technology. There are two major issues that have kept them from becoming main stream before this. 

1. Electrode shape change during discharge: I believe this is due to the zinc trying to liquefy itself. 
2. Electrical shorting due to dendrite growth while (over?)charging.

Xellerion says their "Membrion(TM)"  patented solid state membrane solves both problems for a greatly increased lifespan. http://www.xellerion.com/TECHNOLOGY.htm 

I don't know if one is needed. But if I were selling batteries I'd throw in a BMS for some extra revenue, wouldn't you?


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## Ravishankar (Jan 26, 2009)

It looks it it costs a fortune to make a EV conversion for me here in India .

The only electric car available in India is REVA. I dont like its froggy looks, so am vernturing out see if I can do an EV conversion of a an old small car, the Daewoo Matiz.. This would surely appeal to many here. 

As a demonstrator, the max charge-discharge cycle is not so important. But definitely the cost and range and peformance. I would like to demonstarate a vehicle that looks like a normal car and would also perform somewhat on par with it (the Matiz has a 800cc engine). 

NiZn seems to fit the bill here with its better specific energy, than the lead acid batteries. 

I wonder how much it would take to ship them here to India 

My other options would be to use the ZnAir Fuel Cell , primary battery - with mechanical recharging. Im sure it would provide the range..


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## Joe_L (Sep 17, 2008)

BWH said:


> I wish it were just $10,000, I'd have a set now if they were.
> 
> If everyone bought 24 batteries we would need 416 people to make the 10,000 unit minimum.


I had a feeling that 10,000 might be 10,000 units. I guess like anything it will take time to develope contracts and networks so we can have them available to the general public... $250 per kWh is an excellent price as well, estimate or not.


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## BWH (Sep 26, 2008)

Ravishankar said:


> I wonder how much it would take to ship them here to India


It may be a bit expensive coming from the New York factory. You may want to ask at the eVionyx branch in Taiwan. I don't think they make the 65ah model there but it doesn't hurt to ask. Good luck with the conversion! 

http://www.alibaba.com/product/simonguy711-11420929-10917964/Nikel_Zinc_Battery_Xell_50.html




Joe_L said:


> I guess like anything it will take time to develope contracts and networks so we can have them available to the general public...


Well eVionyx/Xellerion recently purchased http://www.niznbattery.com/. So hopefully it won't be too long.


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## Joe_L (Sep 17, 2008)

BWH said:


> Well eVionyx/Xellerion recently purchased http://www.niznbattery.com/. So hopefully it won't be too long.


Great news. I will keep checking it out.


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## DIYguy (Sep 18, 2008)

I recently had some correspondence with the owner of eVionyx he made the following comment;

We are hoping that in 6 months we will be able to support low volume customers whom we are unable to support at present.

Cheers,
Gary


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## racunniff (Jan 14, 2009)

DIYguy said:


> I recently had some correspondence with the owner of eVionyx he made the following comment;
> 
> We are hoping that in 6 months we will be able to support low volume customers whom we are unable to support at present.
> 
> ...


They refer to short charging times on their product info and website. I assume any typical bulk charger would work? What kind of equalization do they need?

I may be interested in buying some of these when my lead-acids die.


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## BWH (Sep 26, 2008)

DIYguy said:


> I recently had some correspondence with the owner of eVionyx he made the following comment;
> 
> We are hoping that in 6 months we will be able to support low volume customers whom we are unable to support at present.
> 
> ...


That would be wonderful. I hope they can make it. Who did you write to?



racunniff said:


> They refer to short charging times on their product info and website. I assume any typical bulk charger would work? What kind of equalization do they need?


The Xell-60s reference 4-8 hrs with CC/CV (Constant current/Constant voltage). That's as much as I can add to that. Can someone else take this one on?

As for the equalization, Byran told me that currently the batteries come with a BMS (management, not monitoring) built in. This may change. We'll see.

What I currently know from talking with Byran and wandering around the websites:

The batteries do not need to be insulated or cooled and are not prone to thermal runaway. No loss of range in cold temperatures. They are capable of > 500 charges at 100% DOD with no cell damage. The top end of this will need time/testing to determine.

Tech Specs: http://www.reveo.com/us/reveofiles/Xellerion 60 Ah Battery Specification Sheet.pdf

Using the Xell-60s, light cars would average of 24 batteries (783 lbs.) to travel about 100 miles. Larger vehicles, of course, would need more (Byran gave an example of a large BMW needing 36+ <1,175 lbs.>).



Joe_L said:


> In your conversation with Bryan Wilson, did he give you a price if you can obtain enough people to push your order to the $10,000 mark? On their site they state $150-500 per kWh. I am wondering which side of the balance we would be paying.


Byran has said that the $500 per kwh is the cost of batteries in their Beta Testing Program and $250 per kwh is the cost for an order of 10,000 units. He has said they are really looking to bring down the cost when they hit full production mode. I'm going to guess that $150 per kwh is what they are aiming for. A guy can hope anyway. 

This may not matter anymore if they really are looking to sell them to the public in six months. I asked Byran if a smaller order could be added onto a larger one e.g. if they are already making 10,000 why not make 10,100. He said that at first glance he didn't see any problems, but it would depend on who was making the larger order and his bosses’ approval.

Some interesting presentation .pdfs can be found here: http://www.reveo.com/us/node/332

If anyone has any more questions, please let me know and I'll pass them onto Byran.


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## Ravishankar (Jan 26, 2009)

BWH said:


> Byran has said that the $500 per kwh is the cost of batteries in their Beta Testing Program and $250 per kwh is the cost for an order of 10,000 units. He has said they are really looking to bring down the cost when they hit full production mode. I'm going to guess that $150 per kwh is what they are aiming for. A guy can hope anyway.


Good news. I got the same reply from Evionyx that they will be able to supply in 6 months. Hope it will be available from their Taiwan factory. 
Interesting to note about the price. I read in some articles that NiZn batts are $100/Kwh. If really the max C/D cycles are 500 at 100% DoD, then they do make a good value proposition over VRLA batts, even at $150/Kwh. I would say that NiZN and ZnAir (mechanical rechargeable) batteries are the ones to watch out for in the future.


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## eagle90 (Jan 2, 2009)

I don't know who is going to pay $250/kWh for an order of 10k. Granted, Pb based batteries have increased in price considerably over the last couple of years but at $250/kWh you're getting close to LiFePO4 at nowhere near the performance.


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## Efiero (Feb 7, 2009)

looks like he said $250 Kwh not $250 WH


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## Johny (Jul 21, 2008)

Is there any more new on these batteries guys?
Here in Australia Lithium has got really expensive due to the AUD v/s the US$. Chinese companies deal in US$.
The NiZn batteries appear to be a way of keeping the vehicle to original weight (or near) which we just can't do with lead-acid.


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## thx1138kenneth (May 8, 2008)

Hello Everyone-

I just found this post, which is surprising!

I am the owner of Eco-conversions. I converted a 95 BMW 840 using 48 of the Evionyx batteries. Well, they do not work. The guys at eVionyx have been telling everybody for years that they will be ready in 'six months' for high production rates, lower costs, etc. They have been n beta testing for years!

They had to take my batteries back & refurbish them because they forgot to tell me about a little(or should I say BIG) problem with the batteries drying up. If the water level is not constantly maintained, damage results to the membranes. Anyways, they also had to take back their BMS because it didn't work either.

Do not buy from these guy. Bad news.

Ken


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Sorry to hear about your experience with these cells, it would be nice to see other chemistries become practical. Luckily lithium continues to improve and get cheaper, and contrary to the article on your website, there is probably enough lithium to last us quite a while.
http://evworld.com/news.cfm?newsid=20938


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Interestingly I just came across this article:


> But the dream was never to be. Only a handful of the cars were ever built, one of them eventually landing in the hands of retired radio station owner Stephen Taylor of Atlanta. He bought it from eVionyx, a zinc-air battery development firm, who had hoped to use it as a technology demonstrator, but ran into technical problems with their battery.


http://evworld.com/article.cfm?storyid=1737


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## thx1138kenneth (May 8, 2008)

I agree with the amount of lithium available, but unfortunately it would still make us rely on foreign countries.

Informative lithium link:

http://lithiumabundance.blogspot.com/

Anybody wishing for a lithium system(with a BMS), I highly recommend speaking to Zach Tyler at Classic Electrics.

http://classicelectrics.com/documents/23.html


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

thx1138kenneth said:


> I agree with the amount of lithium available, but unfortunately it would still make us rely on foreign countries.
> 
> Informative lithium link:
> 
> http://lithiumabundance.blogspot.com/


Actually that link shows a number of good US sites for lithium, some that have been abandoned due to cheaper sources elsewhere. If demand and price increase the US sites become viable once again. Sounds like a good insurance policy, not to mention increased demand will also drive increased searches for new sources.


> Anybody wishing for a lithium system(with a BMS), I highly recommend speaking to Zach Tyler at Classic Electrics.
> 
> http://classicelectrics.com/documents/23.html


Do you know if he is price competitive with www.evcomponents.com, which sells LiFePO4 prismatics at $1.10 ah? Is the BMS his own design?


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