# My First EV, converting Ferrari F360



## sharp21 (Mar 11, 2008)

*Re: My First EV, converting Ferari F360*


Well, as you are converting a ferrari it is obvious you will be sparing no expense, so definitely Li-On batteries, big voltage, dual motors with mozilla controller etc. 
Is it a rear engine car? Transaxle? Unfortunately I dont know too much about Italian imports, only american junker...
Post some pics of that bad boy so we can see what you are working with!
S.


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## Dan Frederiksen (Jul 26, 2007)

*Re: My First EV, converting Ferari F360*

very nice. I hope you will make a website with it. a big part of the publicity impact will be gutting that motor out of it. I'm sure that'll boggle a lot of ignorant minds : )
with a 360 you set yourself up for a high minimum power level since it would be a let down if it's slower than the gas version. I think you should base your choices on the white zombie when it used the killacycle lithium pack or the dennis berube's truck. the white zombie trick is basically a HV zilla 2k and 2 ADC8 inch motors. Dennis' has a single 11inch motor which I think is much better. white zombie is probably a dual since at that time the larger motors weren't available. I've compiled this to show the various motors: www.zev.dk/misc/torque-curves.gif I would probably try an 11 inch for a 360 but a 13" can do as well. ADC also makes an 11 but hard to find.
for batteries I would probably choose DLG (aka K2 in USA but more expensive) test here: http://www.zeva.com.au/tech/K2/ the two last cost about 5$ direct from DLG in china. they seem to be as good or better than the famed A123 cells. a couple of thousand of those cells and you should be in serious business. white zombie had 880 or 990 cells in his 11 something quarter mile record.


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## demolay rules (Feb 28, 2008)

*Re: My First EV, converting Ferari F360*

First of all, I would contact www.hitorqueelectric.com cuz I know they could probably make you a custom motor, as long as you have the right _leverage_. Anyone thinking a siamese 11"? Then again, mybe you should go AC high voltage. Also, PLEASE post some pictures of the car before/during/after. Also I would recommend taking videos on a website like Gavin Shobridge here (www.kiwiev.com). Also http://grassrootsev.com/motor.htm might help. Good luck!


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## gemmuj (Feb 22, 2008)

*Re: My First EV, converting Ferari F360*

Wow, I can't beliieve the amount of interest. thank you everyone. Yea I was defo think og doing a Gavin type website, or something along those lines.

My f360 hasn't actually arrived as of yet. As I'm sure that your all aware, the rule and regs are a bit different with cars like these. You can't just turn up and buy them sadly. But I only have to wait about two weeks or so, so it's not a big deal. I has posted some pics of other F360s to give an idea and when mine arrives i'm try so many pics that my memory taps out, lol. 

about the car, at the moment it is a mid mounted 3.6Lts V8 which will push out 400bhp. It has a manual gearbox as the F1 gearbox is a piece of poo.

Also, just to make members aware, i am based in London, UK. Also, if anyone would like to help out with the project in regards to being like a techinal adviser sort of thing, it would be my pleasure to have you on board. Knowledge is power, but one man can never posess all the worlds power.


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## demolay rules (Feb 28, 2008)

*Re: My First EV, converting Ferari F360*

As for your technical advisors-I am sure this whole forum would suffice!


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## Nick Smith (Oct 26, 2007)

*Re: My First EV, converting Ferari F360*

As money is obviously bursting out of your pockets  then I would have thought that an AC motor and controller would have been the way to go.

My ideal would be for a 150kW motor (max rated) and a 336V-200Ah(C3) LiFePo pack. I quite like the idea of the siemens system that metric mind sell (no I'm not a shill ) as it has an OEM feel about it. The batteries might take up a bit of room though.


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## demolay rules (Feb 28, 2008)

*Re: My First EV, converting Ferari F360*

If you really want good accelaration and you have AC regen you could also use supercapacitors. That would really get you going. I'm trying to think if their are any high high high end EV parts I have forgotten. Ah yes, that's it! Charger. I would go with an inductive charging system and if not, one of those chargers that charges a regular pack in like a half-hour.


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## Dan Frederiksen (Jul 26, 2007)

*Re: My First EV, converting Ferari F360*

nasty business with an EV ferrari in the UK since there is maybe not an easy way to find a used one without tax that's right hand drive. or is UK car tax negligible? have you bought a left hand drive car? the one in the picture is not a UK car


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## gemmuj (Feb 22, 2008)

*Re: My First EV, converting Ferari F360*

Hi Dan,

my car is a uk standard right hand drive. This pictures are temp and are for illistration only. And why do people think that I have soo much money. I don't. do you know how much that thing cost me.lol . forget building an EV out of it, I should be on here asking for pennies, lmao


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## demolay rules (Feb 28, 2008)

*Re: My First EV, converting Ferari F360*

Ok. So instead of assuming that you have alot of money because you have a ferrari, I will ask you this (if you don't mind). How much are you willing to spend? Do you want the same speed and acceleration as the original? If so, contact www.evporsche.com. They seem to have a knack for converting race cars.


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## Dan Frederiksen (Jul 26, 2007)

*Re: My First EV, converting Ferari F360*

I'm not sure how many has actually been converted. and it's not super cheap. just doing it might be preferably. especially considering the distance..


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## Wirecutter (Jul 26, 2007)

*Re: My First EV, converting Ferari F360*



sharp21 said:


> ...dual motors with mozilla controller etc.


Mozilla makes a controller? Or is this some new "open-source" controller?  

-M


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## sharp21 (Mar 11, 2008)

*Re: My First EV, converting Ferari F360*

My bad!
Mozilla.org - Home of the Mozilla Project
An open-source XML/HTML browser which is implementing full Level 2 DOM support.
Now i had better go back & check my post on the Godzilla forums!
S.


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## Mastiff (Jan 11, 2008)

*Re: My First EV, converting Ferari F360*

You may want to contact *Azure Dynamics*:
http://www.azuredynamics.com/

They build AC motor and controller systems for fleet EV conversions.

They also build dual motor systems and they sell their own capacitor system and controller for use in their EV systems.

I would think if you could go with dual AC55 motors from them and one or two Capacitor banks, your Ferrari would end up kicking some serious butt.

Here's a full spec sheet on the *AC55* motor and DMOC445 controller:
http://www.azuredynamics.com/pdf/AC55_DMOC445 Product Sheet.pdf

Two of those motors combined would have 560 Newton meters of maximum Torque, or 413 Foot Pounds of Torque.

They sustain that Torque all the way from 0-2000RPM too.
That seems like enough for your performance needs. 

One AC55 system costs around $7300 US(Plus shipping) from Electro Automotive's website:
http://www.electroauto.com/catalog/price-pts.shtml

I am unsure what the Capacitor systems Azure Dynamics sells cost.


As for performance batteries, as of now I only know of *A123Systems* who make high performance batteries:
http://www.a123systems.com/

They may be willing to lower their prices(or donate outright) in turn for some advertisement on your Ferrari as well.

The Batteries are where your going to have to dig deep into your pockets.
You must match your battery pack with the motor/controller system you are using.

Undersizing the batteries is like building an endurance race car with a fuel tank that holds 1/2 a liter of fuel.


So to conclude a few questions:
What kind of 0-60MPH time do you want?
What kind of Top Speed?
What kind of Range?
What kind of budget are you looking at spending for all of this?

If you can answer these questions, mainly the budget one, we can conclude what you'll be able to do.


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## demolay rules (Feb 28, 2008)

*Re: My First EV, converting Ferari F360*

When is the website getting up?


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## gemmuj (Feb 22, 2008)

*Re: My First EV, converting Ferari F360*

well, my aim is to keep it as close to the original performance as possible.

0-60, would be like to have it about 6-7 secs pushing it

I'm not intending to go super ferari fast in it, but something decent would be nice.

Range, I will never really drive it for more then about 30 miles oneway.

budget - I would like to spend in the region of about £6-7000. I think that is quite a good sized budget, but I would like to keep it as low as possible.


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## MitchJi (Dec 14, 2007)

*Re: My First EV, converting Ferari F360*

Hi,

The best motor (if you can afford 25k and if they will sell you one is):
http://www.acpropulsion.com/technology/gen2.htm


> As the main product we sell here at AC Propulsion, the AC-150 drivetrain has consistently received praise the world over for its innovative design and jaw-dropping performance. First available in 1994, the AC-150 drive system entered its second generation of production in 2000. This new system retains the first generation's 150 kW (200 HP) rating, but has fewer parts, is 30 percent smaller, 8 pounds lighter and packages more functions inside the electronics enclosure than the original AC-150.


Same technology used by Tesla. Very powerful, light weight and least expensive AC system for the power (if Metric Mind has something with comparable power it will probably cost a lot more).

Mitch


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## Mastiff (Jan 11, 2008)

*Re: My First EV, converting Ferari F360*

Your budget even with the Pound at twice the value of the Dollar is low for the expectations you have.

By 30 miles one way, I'm assuming you'd need a 60 mile round trip range.

If you want to keep a 0-60 time of 6 seconds and a range of 60 miles, you will not be able to use Lead-Acid batteries, they weigh far too much for this.

You're going to have to go with some kind of Lithium or NiMH battery pack.

Valence makes Lithium batteries that have been used in EV's:
http://www.valence.com/products/cells_home.html

LionEV also sells Lithium battery packs:
http://www.lionev.com/

The downside is that Lithiums aren't cheap and your budget is low for a Lithium system.


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## Dan Frederiksen (Jul 26, 2007)

*Re: My First EV, converting Ferari F360*

some truth to that. valence is somewhat expensive and I wouldn't yet trust lionev with money. imo they have credibility issues (that may be resolved).

the biggest zilla costs around 4500$
an 11" motor is about 3000.
I figure you should get maybe 2000 cells of 5$ DLG (aka K2) cells. (bought as K2 they cost 7ish$ and both are FOB shanghai) so that's 10k$ if you can assemble them for free.
that is already in excess of your budget but would provide a powerful solution. nothing more powerful around basically.
eventually the batteries will becomes cheaper and the motor and controller most certainly will. 
you could experiment with the chinese zibo motors but their largest is something around 9.5" but only costs 500$. you could also settle for a 1000amp zilla but starting with the 360 you have set a high standard..
not necessarily a platform for experimentation.

damn it, I gotta pull myself together and work on my controller design so we can beat these costs

btw, with the 11" and zilla 2k I'm guessing you would be down to around 4seconds. a 9" and zilla 1000 might do the 6. the 2000 batteries is around 80 miles so you can cut that down too.


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## KiwiEV (Jul 26, 2007)

*Re: My First EV, converting Ferari F360*



gemmuj said:


> well, my aim is to keep it as close to the original performance as possible.
> 
> 0-60, would be like to have it about 6-7 secs pushing it
> 
> ...


Well I'm impressed. As the others have said, make sure you take a pile of video footage before/during/after. Even if you never plan on watching the video, it'll be handy when it comes to the "now where did this wire used to go?" stage of the car. I've used all my photos and videos to get me out of the poo several times. 

Can't wait to see the car transform, very impressed.


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## gemmuj (Feb 22, 2008)

*Re: My First EV, converting Ferari F360*

hiya Gav,

thank you very muchf or your support. It was through watching you at play that I decided that this was what I wanted to do. So thank's for taking that first step.

question for anyone really. what different does the inch of the motor make? I mean, what does it matter if it is a 9", 10" 11" etc.. does it relate to it's power output.

What does Advanced Timing mean?
with referance to Warp motors what does spline mean?
Should I be opting for a motor rating higher then 144VDC?

Which motor would be best out of these;
- Warp 11" Dbl Shaft
- Warp 13" Dbl Shaft
- Warp 9" or the Warp impulse
- transwaro 11"

Omg so many choices , i'm soo confused.

I'm sorry if I sound like a total idiot in that I have very little idea about what I'm doing when it comes to choosing the right parts. But that's what you guys are for. 

also i've increased my budget up to about £12,000. I realised that I can sell the engine and other parts that I don't need.

Battery parks, I'm thinking about using
- Li-Po
- Li-ion

Ok, lets talk about controllers.

i'm thinking zilla, but they never seem to be in stock.from anywhere. ANy others that would be usful?


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## Dan Frederiksen (Jul 26, 2007)

*Re: My First EV, converting Ferari F360*

the only alternative to the 2000 amp zilla is to have one made of similar power.
motor diameter is not an absolute measure they are often of similar length and technology so there is a tendential correlation between diameter and power. in principle you can pour any amount of power in the motor but it's then a matter of how soon it will break. either mechanically or through overheating from P=RII loses where R is resistance in the motor wire and I is the current. easy way to remember that formula is think of 2 prius'es (prii). P is power of course. measured in watt. like a toaster it will melt the wires if high enough. notice voltage is irrelevant in that consideration. that's why powerlines are super high voltage like 450000V because that's free of transmission loss. if the same power was transmitted as 100V it could melt a half meter thick wire in a matter of seconds. unfortunately for motor design it's also only the current that decides the the magnetic field strength which makes torque. you can have a higher voltage motor that does the same with less current by using more thinner windings but it all balances out so no inherent advantage in that. it is however easier to make high voltage controllers rather than high current.
come to think of it, since a 350V 1000A zilla is a far amount of power (400HP or so) you might actually be able to get enough power by using a motor meant for a higher voltage than the typical 24/36v forklift motors like ADC and netgain (warp motors). you could try the Zibo ZC11-144 (so named for 11kW and 144V) that doesn't mean it can only take 144v, that's 144v for it's normal relaxed industrial operation. it'll probably need 350V to be properly motivated. the price is around 500$ and you have to import it from China from the supplier (not retail) and noone has ever tried it before but it's not terribly expensive either. a zilla can probably always be sold if you decide to upgrade later as well. 
if you decide to try contact them here: http://supermotor.en.alibaba.com/product/50091855/51025784/electric_vehicle/DC_Motor.html and just say you want a sample ZC11-144. I was quoted a shipping of 90$ to Denmark. (dollar is now in free fall though) it's shipping shipping so expect it to be slow
here's all the material I have gotten from them so you don't have to ask for it as well: http://www.zev.dk/misc/ZiBoSuperMotors.zip

no guarantees. just telling you what I have found : )
if you can find another large higher voltage motor locally that could work too but unfortunately there are no simple 'use this, it's sure to work' cheap solutions. we are essentially hacking the forklift industry


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## Dan Frederiksen (Jul 26, 2007)

*Re: My First EV, converting Ferari F360*

I said noone has tried it, that's not entirely true. according to ZiBo the little scooter like cars made by Zap! allegedly use ZiBo motors. that's at least a kind of vote of quality confidence


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## Madmac (Mar 14, 2008)

*Re: My First EV, converting Ferari F360*

As the car you are converting is a bit special you should do a good conversion. I would do a 340/350 volt lithium ion battery pack for most power / lowest weight along with an AC motor and a Siemens inverter controller. With careful shopping around and making the battery pack up yourself. You should come in under £12k and end up with something that has much better performance than a DC system.

You also get regeneration for free to extend range.

Madmac


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## demolay rules (Feb 28, 2008)

*Re: My First EV, converting Ferari F360*

12k pounds is alot better. Does anyone know how many dollars that is?

I would get a warp 11 double shaft, so that if your gar has air conditioning you can use the other side for the pump. Try to steer away from transwarp because I think you said you wanted a transmission. transwarp are instead of transmissions. This is if you even do DC at all.

I think the motor inches allows more coils of wire to go around, giving the motor more power.


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## MitchJi (Dec 14, 2007)

*Re: My First EV, converting Ferari F360*



Madmac said:


> 1. As the car you are converting is a bit special you should do a good conversion.
> 
> 2. I would do a 340/350 volt lithium ion battery pack for most power / lowest weight.
> 
> ...


Hi,

I totally agree with your first two points. Convert a Ferarri and use a hacked Forklift Motor and or controller or Lead Acid Batteries. It would make more sense to get a cheaper donor vehicle (Porsche Boxster for example and use better components).

But I don't agree with point number 3. If you use the AC Propulsion unit it will either have much better performance or cost less than a Siemens motor and Invertor Combo. In other words the same performance with Siemans equipment will cost a lot more:
http://www.acpropulsion.com/technology/gen2.htm

Of course if equaling the performance of a Honda Accord is good enough for you disregard this advice and go with the Siemans.

Best Wishes!

Mitch


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## demolay rules (Feb 28, 2008)

*Re: My First EV, converting Ferari F360*

How much does the AC propulsion kit cost?


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## MitchJi (Dec 14, 2007)

*Re: My First EV, converting Ferari F360*



demolay rules said:


> How much does the AC propulsion kit cost?


Hi,

The list price is 25k which admittedly is a lot, but we are talking about a Ferrari Conversion. I would rather have a Tesla than a Ferrari with a cheap conversion.

Before you dismiss the price as insane price out AC Systems with similar power from Metric Mind. Then check out the features and quality of the AC Propulsion System. 

There is a discussion on the EVDL about converting a Boxster here:
http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showthread.php?t=10056&highlight=boxster

Here are some relevant comments:


> I have driven Tom's e-box which has the same curb weight
> and transmission as my Yaris did and it is one fast car, even with the
> system "de-tuned" to have less performance than the way it is set up
> in the Tesla. I may eat my words but if I do another nice conversion
> ...


Best Wishes,

Mitch


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## demolay rules (Feb 28, 2008)

*Re: My First EV, converting Ferari F360*

It is too much for the budget that was already established though.


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## Madmac (Mar 14, 2008)

*Re: My First EV, converting Ferari F360*

Engineering is always about making a set of compromises to fulfill the target specifications.

AC Propulsions system has two advantages, the motor power to weight is about 10% better than most out there (except maybe the latest Brusa motor). Secondly their inverter / charger is unique as they have the patent for it. The only company to license it is Tesla. Down side is that the motor must be isolated from the chassis and drive system.

The budget rules out AC Propulsion. In my opinion the Siemens unit has two advantages, being European it can be sourced in Germany for less than in the States and Siemens has a reputation for building very reliable, robust kit.

The American suppliers always seem to 'push the line' you must buy the motor and inverter as a matched pair. What is required is to make sure the inverter is set up for the motor correctly. All inverters I know of (except AC propulsion) accept wide range of setup options.

Madmac

Gemmuj If you decide to go the lithium ion battery route maybe you would be up for doing a combined buy to get the cost down, am also in the UK. I also have (nearly developed) a battery monitoring system that also links to a car PC running Road Runner and johnWPB's skin http://www.mp3car.com/vbulletin/rr-skins/117143-digitalfx-3-0-released.html
to allow all parameters to be seen. Also an interface with accelerometers to show performance amongst other things (http://www.digital-car.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?t=6444&page=2 and look for madmac)


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## MitchJi (Dec 14, 2007)

*Re: My First EV, converting Ferari F360*



Lexus said:


> I emailed AC Propulsion System in the past and explained what I wanted to do ... and what I needed and they told me they do not sell to the public .... Have they changed that stance???


Hi,

I don't think their policy has changed but I think if you are creative you could purchase their Motor/Invertor for your project. You want to build a custom vehicle and then if there is demand you plan to make bodies available. 

I think if Tokyo R & D approached AC Propulsion and stated that they want to use their Motor/Invertor in a prototype, and they hope to produce more units if demand warrants they might (depending on the approach) sell their equipment.

This is basically what Wrightspeed did (years later as far as I can tell he still has one prototype):
http://www.wrightspeed.com/x1.html


> In recent track testing, on street tires, it achieved the following performance:
> 0-30 mph: 1.35 sec
> 0-60 mph: 3.07 sec in 117 ft
> 0-100 mph: 6.87 sec
> ...


http://www.wrightspeed.com/impressions.html


> _*Driving the X1 was the most fun I’ve had since the Pike’s Peak car… which is a 900 hp race car. The X1 is almost as quick and yet it’s quiet and easy to drive in traffic.”*_  – Rod Millen, holder of the outright record for the Pikes Peak “Race to the Clouds” hillclimb since 1994 ​
> *“Impressive!”  *​ – Jean Todt, Ferrari CEO​


Check the 0-60 time! The Ferrari is heavier but this gives you some idea of the performance you could get with the AC Propulsion equipment in a Ferrari which I assume is a very light car.

If I had the resources and the desire to build a fun car I think something similar to the Wrightspeed X1 would be my choice. You could get pretty close with the AC Motor/Invertor and this kit (*Price: $15,995*):
http://www.superlitecars.com/roadster_spec.html

Best Wishes,

Mitch


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## MitchJi (Dec 14, 2007)

*Re: My First EV, converting Ferari F360*



demolay rules said:


> It is too much for the budget that was already established though.


Hi,

If that is what he wants to spend and how he wants to proceed that is fine but *IMO* a budget and parts appropriate for a Chevy S10 Conversion for a Ferrari doesn't make much sense (*YMMV*).

Reminds me of a house I helped remodel. The owners had an engineer do studies so they could save $4k on beefing up the foundation when they decided to use a tile roof and the architect would not approve the existing foundation for the additional weight. Then they spent $9 on gold plated bathtub fittings...

Best Wishes,

Mitch


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## Madmac (Mar 14, 2008)

*Re: My First EV, converting Ferari F360*

"If I had the resources and the desire to build a fun car I think something similar to the Wrightspeed X1 would be my choice. You could get pretty close with the AC Motor/Invertor and this kit (*Price: $15,995*):
http://www.superlitecars.com/roadster_spec.html"

If you are after a super lite roadster to could try this one at lot lower cost
http://www.mevltd.co.uk/

Madmac


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## MitchJi (Dec 14, 2007)

*Re: My First EV, converting Ferari F360*



MitchJi said:


> Hi,
> 
> I don't think their policy has changed but I think if you are creative you could purchase their Motor/Invertor for your project. You want to build a custom vehicle and then if there is demand you plan to make bodies available.
> 
> ...


If you or Tokyo R & D have the inclination another possibility would be to try to get permission to distribute their equipment in Japan/Asia or even set up small scale less expensive production. If you could produce it for $10k or $15k it would really help their business and you would have access to great technology at a good price.

Best Wishes,

Mitch


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## MitchJi (Dec 14, 2007)

*Re: My First EV, converting Ferari F360*



Madmac said:


> AC Propulsions system has two advantages, the motor power to weight is about 10% better than most out there (except maybe the latest Brusa motor). Secondly their inverter / charger is unique as they have the patent for it. The only company to license it is Tesla. Down side is that the motor must be isolated from the chassis and drive system.
> 
> The budget rules out AC Propulsion. In my opinion the Siemens unit has two advantages, being European it can be sourced in Germany for less than in the States and Siemens has a reputation for building very reliable, robust kit.
> Madmac


I am not aware of any evidence nor do I have any reason to believe that Siemens is more reliable.

I am very interested in what you said about pricing. I have some close friends in Europe who could potentially order and ship to me. Do you know about how much these cost in Europe (almost $10k in the U.S. from Metric Mind)?:
Motor: Siemens 1PV5135WS14 3-Phase AC Rated Power: 45 kW 61.1hp
Controller: Siemens SIMOVERT 6SV-1 110-350VDC, integrated 60A DC-DC converter

This is probably too much to ask but if you have any idea of shipping that would also be helpful.



> If you are after a super lite roadster to could try this one at lot lower cost
> http://www.mevltd.co.uk/


Nice find but I still can't afford  to spend that much for a great toy.

Thanks!

Mitch


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## Dan Frederiksen (Jul 26, 2007)

*Re: My First EV, converting Ferari F360*

forget ACP people. 25.000$ is just too damn much for a motor and controller.
it should cost 1/10th of that. it's a nice system (not faster than a zilla2k set) and it can serve as inspiration of what a system should be but at a much more reasonable price. it's SO not worth the cost and when someone decides to manufacture them in bulk they will cost less than 1/10.

but as a product to buy from ACP, forget about it


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## MitchJi (Dec 14, 2007)

*Re: My First EV, converting Ferari F360*



Dan Frederiksen said:


> forget ACP people. 25.000$ is just too damn much for a motor and controller.
> it should cost 1/10th of that. it's a nice system (not faster than a zilla2k set) and it can serve as inspiration of what a system should be but at a much more reasonable price. it's SO not worth the cost and when someone decides to manufacture them in bulk they will cost less than 1/10.
> 
> but as a product to buy from ACP, forget about it


Hi Dan,

The price is high compared to DC components, largely as you point, out due to lack of mass production. DC definitely gives you more power for a cheaper price. 

But my point was that compared to AC components of similar power and weight their prices are reasonable.

AC is generally considered to be superior technology. ACP has some of the best if not the best AC Technology. I think a Ferrari conversion deserves superior technology.

I stated the above as *my opinion*. You are entitled to a different opinion but you stated your opinion like its a fact, which is incorrect and impolite.

Beyond that 1/10 the cost is an gross exageration. If you price out a system with Warp DC and Zilla with similar power it will likely be 1/3 or 1/4th the cost. That is not even taking into account it probably won't have the same high speed acceleration. Definitely won't have the following features:

Bi-directional AC power grid interface 
Stand-alone power generation mode - power to AC loads
Traction control and regeneration with lateral acceleration compensation (state of the art regen)

using vehicles to provide uninterruptible backup power to homes or businesses
Take Care,

Mitch


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## Mastiff (Jan 11, 2008)

*Re: My First EV, converting Ferari F360*



gemmuj said:


> hiya Gav,
> 
> thank you very muchf or your support. It was through watching you at play that I decided that this was what I wanted to do. So thank's for taking that first step.
> 
> ...


The Diameter of the motor is usually a good indicator of how much power it has, but not the only indicator.


Out of those motors the Warp 13" is most powerful followed by the Warp 11".

Dbl Shaft means (Double Shafted) meaning the drive shaft comes out both sides of the motor.


Acceleration to Cost wise, a DC motor and controller will be the better option.

But DC motors don't have many of the features of AC motors, like Regenerative breaking.

AC motors also have no brushes, so there's nothing to wear out or replace, one of the other reasons why they're more expensive.



Personally and this is just my opinion, I recommend you leave your Ferrari alone and enjoy it as a normal Ferrari for now.

Meanwhile, save up your money, try to double your budget.
In a few years prices will go down and you'll be able to build the Electric Ferrari you want.

Right now, your budget is too low for what you expect to get.
You also need to study a bit more about the differences between DC/AC systems and the different Lithium battery chemistries(there are many).

The type of system you want to build will be a very big investment, money and time wise.

You should completely understand everything your going to be doing before you commit to buying these parts.


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## MitchJi (Dec 14, 2007)

*Re: My First EV, converting Ferari F360*



Mastiff said:


> Personally and this is just my opinion, I recommend you leave your Ferrari alone and enjoy it as a normal Ferrari for now.
> 
> Meanwhile, save up your money, try to double your budget. In a few years prices will go down and you'll be able to build the Electric Ferrari you want.
> 
> ...


Hi,

I think that is the best advice that has been given on this topic.

Mitch


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## Dan Frederiksen (Jul 26, 2007)

*Re: My First EV, converting Ferari F360*

I would have to strongly disagree. using the ferrari as a gasser is wrong. it's true it's a demanding donor car to start with but either do it or sell it and convert a porsche boxster or similar. leaving the ferrari as a gas car is defeatism. that's giving up, caving in


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## demolay rules (Feb 28, 2008)

I'd have to agree with that.


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## Dennis (Feb 25, 2008)

> [ AC motors also have no brushes, so there's nothing to wear out or replace, one of the other reasons why they're more expensive


That's not an entirely accurate assessment. In the EV world AC drive motors are more expensive, but in the industrial manufacturing world 3-phase AC induction motors are way cheaper than a DC motor by a long shot.




Here is a list I compiled when searching for different horespower motors from Baldor.com



*DC 100 horespower
*
catalog number: D50100P
Price: $21,195

catalog number: D50100P-BV
Price: $21,151

*AC 100 Horsepower motors*

catalog number: CP4400T-4
Price: $7,693

catalog number: ECP84402T-5
Price: $11,849

*DC 200 Horsepower*

catalog number: D50200P
Price: 38,299
*
 Special purpose 3-phase motors*

Even a 200HP Inverter Duty rated 3-phase motor meant for use with variable frequency drives is cheaper than a 200Hp DC motor:

* 200 Horsepower AC inverter duty rated*

catalog number: IDM4407T-4
Price: 20,568

Even a *flux vector controller compatible 200HP AC 3-phase motor* (full torque from 0 to base speed) is cheaper than a 200HP DC motor:

catalog number: ZDM4407T-4
Price: 21,625






*DC 400 Horsepower*

catalog number: D50400P-BV
Price: $72,985

*DC 500 Horsepower*

Catalog number: D50500P-BV
Price: $95,974

*AC 400 Horsepower*

catalog number: M25402T-4
Price: $21,371

*AC 500 Horsepower*

catalog number: ECP50506L-2341
Price: $77,089


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## Dan Frederiksen (Jul 26, 2007)

wow those are some ridiculous prices. but I'm guessing those are the usual super overkill sizes that could do their rated power forever and never get warm


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## Mastiff (Jan 11, 2008)

Your right actually, AC motors can be cheaper than DC's.

I should have mentioned that on average it's the AC electric motor controller for use in an EV that causes the full AC system to cost more.

DC controllers are getting very cheap now.


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## gemmuj (Feb 22, 2008)

Hiya guys,

first of all, i would like to say a huge thank you to every for helping me on this topic and advising me. I appreciate all the guidance.

I know what I'm about to say will not sit well with some people on this forum, but for that I apologies. I've decided that I am going to keep the 360 the way it is for a while. I know that this is total hypocrisy on my part, but also understand that it is every little boys dream to have a Ferrari. We dream about cars like these from such a small age, hoping to one day own one. 

I am no different. I have thought about this car for many years, hoping to one day own one. I've work hard and yea I've now almost got one. So i for a short while, while i extent my budget, I am going to enjoy it the way it is. 

in the meantime, I have decided that I will convert my other car. I will start a new threat on that.

thank you everyone.


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## Dan Frederiksen (Jul 26, 2007)

I am happy to say that I have developed to the point where I wouldn't be happy with a combustion ferrari. it's not a dream for me. actually I wouldn't even want it as an electric since to me it's more show than go. it's like I wouldn't want to look like a body builder. it's somehow needlessly vulgar. I would choose something that looks more casual like a porsche boxster and put the power in that. and if I were to spend more than that I would have to make the car from scratch since there aren't really cars around that are optimized in the way that electric allows. mainly weight and friction.

I look at combustion engines almost with disgust like it was something archaic like a steam engine from 1850. all this huffing and puffing not amounting to a hell of a lot. maybe you will quickly lose interest in the gas ferrari and move on as well.

as for an extreme of personal mobility (which ironically will require combustion) I recently got the idea that it might be possible to make a formula1 style car that could smoothly transition to flight like no other vehicle before it. I would use very thin wheels to reduce drag which would work well for the drive portion as well and the spear monocoque is well suited for flight as well. it's said that a formula1 can drive inverted at a certain speed which lead me to think it can fly as well. a couple of small turbines, some aerodynamics design and voila..
it could be electric drive but the flight will have to remain fuel for now. could be synthetic fuel made by windmill electricity though


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## Hi Torque Electric (Dec 23, 2007)

Hey all

Thought I'd chime in here on a couple of things. In as much as DC motors have brushes and do wear out, if sized properly becomes almost mute so it's to bad so many undersize their motor and then spew bad press. The statement "AC motors also have no brushes, so there's nothing to wear out or replace, one of the other reasons why they're more expensive ", isn't true either. The new AC lift motors are having some issues, many in failed encoder bearings, and they cost roughly twice what a standard brush set will run you (factor in a turn and undercut and it's tit for tat.

As to the 9, 11, 13 when dealing with motor diameters it is a basic way to describe a motors general mass. Mostly it's used with the standard motors being used for EV's like the Warp's and Advance motors. There are shorter 9, 11, and 13" motors, some with but half the length (or half the brushes)(or both, lol) specially in the lift motor world. Anyway it doesn't paint the whole picture but usually refers to the standard motors being used.












This is a pic of a 72 volt 13" interpoled Allis Chalmers motor I worked up and compared to a Warp 9 for scale. Brush wear won't be an issue with this motor 8^o Anyway hope this helps with motor diameters and mass.

Here's a link to a couple more if the pic doesn't come up here:
http://hitorqueelectric.com/gallery/v/custom_motors/misc/?g2_page=2

Jim Husted
Hi-Torque Electric


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## epyon (Mar 20, 2008)

I fell for the guy . It took me a year to get to the point of looking at my baby and not doing anything , going over every 800hp to 1000hp engine combo before finaly changing my car to electric and not putting in something "EVIL" . Don't get me wrong , the other car is getting a turbo . But I do fell I can go faster in a electric car in a few years . Damm the ozone , I'll club a seal and cut a tree or do burn-outs in my turbo V-8 at a green-peice meeting . Electric motors have alot of touque at idle and can go to a high RPM with little waist in power vs gas . I just want to get started slow and maybe running with traffic for now , but after I save some money on gas , I'll go for top speed for shure . If Li-ion batteries get cheap soon , I'm building a monster .


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## FPV_GTp (Mar 25, 2008)

gemmuj said:


> Hiya guys,
> 
> first of all, i would like to say a huge thank you to every for helping me on this topic and advising me. I appreciate all the guidance.
> 
> ...


Hi





I'm having a huge giggle here PMSFL obviously you have more cents ( sense ) LOL

I am sure the ferrari was cheap http://www.ferrariworld.com/FWorld/fw/index.jsp

The cost 2004 Ferrari F360 not to mention wrecking such a beatufull vehicle.

I had a huge giggle reading the whole thread.

Gemmuj good luck with future projects. , wonder if they sell ferraris cheaper in the UK ?

I'm sure *Enzo Ferrari **would of been turn in his grave LOL*



meanings - http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary.htm

cent(s) - 1 *:* a monetary unit equal to 1⁄100 of a basic unit of value — see _birr, dollar, euro, gulden, leone, lilangeni, lira, nakfa, pound, rand, rupee, shilling_ at money table 

2 *:* a coin, token, or note representing one cent 


sense - capacity for effective application of the powers of the mind as a basis for action or response *:* intelligence b*:* sound mental capacity and understanding typically marked by shrewdness and practicality; _also_ *:* agreement with or satisfaction of such power <this decision makes _sense_>


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## mattW (Sep 14, 2007)

I don't think you are a hypocrite, you just didn't know how much it would cost to do this conversion well. I think it is wise for you to wait until you can do it properly. This conversion has the potential to either be a flagship for the entire EV movement or make a lot of Ferrari fans very angry at the EV movement. I wouldn't do it until you can make sure your the first not the second... Good choice and I'm looking forward to your other conversion.


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## Dan Frederiksen (Jul 26, 2007)

a ferrari is an abomination and converting it to electric drive is hardly wrecking it. 
and as for Enzo, if he doesn't like electric drive he can just go to hell. but Ferrari has actually announced they will be making cars with electric drive motors in. maybe 6 months ago


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## demolay rules (Feb 28, 2008)

I think we all need to CALM DOWN!


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## rallyshark (Sep 19, 2008)

I don't necessarily think that Enzo is rolling in his grave...he embraced new technologies during his racing days, Ferraris are constantly using new technologies. 

To assume that gasoline engines are necessary to have a ferrari is faulty logic.

Yes, Ferrari is famous for its 12 cylinder engines, but I'd say in the future that ferrari will also be famous for its high performance AC motors/controllers.

Oh yeah, and I totally resurrected a dead thread


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## FPV_GTp (Mar 25, 2008)

rallyshark said:


> I don't necessarily think that Enzo is rolling in his grave...he embraced new technologies during his racing days, Ferraris are constantly using new technologies.
> 
> To assume that gasoline engines are necessary to have a ferrari is faulty logic.
> 
> ...


LOL na all in good fun , maybe one day the F1 racing will be run by electric cars and get rid of fossil fuels

cheers


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