# [EVDL] Driven Man Creates,Electric-Hydraulic Dragster



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Geopilot wrote:
> > kind of an interesting idea.
> > combine elctric motors and hydraulics.
> > anyone seen this ?
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Not totally flawed. The idea is sound. Some applications would be 
better suited to this. However one flaw of the DC drive motor setup is 
that you have no real reliable regen availble. A small but very useful 
hydraulic setup could be used for regen purposes in the DC drive motor 
car so you can recapture your energy from braking and use it to get 
the vehicle moving again. Once moving the DC takes over. One benefit 
of a set up like that is that the start up amps are low because most 
of the energy is from hydraulics and not the battery. Some is but not 
much. Saves battery energy and increases distance. It is a hydraulic 
battery. Same as using maybe a CAP set up to recapture energy. It is 
just one avenue but certainly not exclusive. All these things have 
their place. So lets keep the ideas flowing and incorporate as much as 
possible to make a viable product.

Pete : )



> sounds like a tragedy to spend a lifetime on an idea so fundamentally
> flawed.





> Dan Frederiksen wrote:
> 
> > Geopilot wrote:
> >> kind of an interesting idea.
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

The record is 315 mph for an electric car... For the aerodynamically nonoptimal dragster, he's going to need a really really big motor, about $200k or $300k of A123 batteries, about $40k of Godzilla controllers... He might need to remove the hydraulic system for better efficiency, too!

----- Original Message ----
... But they didn't realize they were seeing * a test run with a very small 
motor." * Mike Blood said, "I went out there to prove my design works. 
And it does. With a larger motor I could beat the electric car speed 
record." The record is 200 mph. "He could do it", said Simpson ...






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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

I just wonder if it isn't a way to get better off the line performance 
from a smaller electric motor.
Because of the hydraulic accumulator dumping vast stored power instantly 
into the wheels you can get great acceleration and you can restore the 
accumulator from small periods of excess power while driving.

Also I think the efficiency of storing and releasing braking energy 
hydraulically is much higher than electric braking recovery to batteries 
and then back to the electric motor isn't it?




> Dan Frederiksen wrote:
> > Geopilot wrote:
> >
> >> kind of an interesting idea.
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Geopilot wrote:
> > Also I think the efficiency of storing and releasing braking energy
> > hydraulically is much higher than electric braking recovery to batteries
> > and then back to the electric motor isn't it?
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

[No message]


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Morgan LaMoore wrote:
> 
> > The charge-discharge cycle of lead-acid is nowhere near 100%;
> > hydraulics is more efficient than the chemical reactions in batteries.
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> On 20 Mar 2008 at 8:18, Morgan LaMoore wrote:
> 
> > The charge-discharge cycle of lead-acid is nowhere near 100%;
> 
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

I think what they were trying to achieve with the electric charging up
the hydraulics for drag racing is take advantage of the higher power
output of the haydraulics over a shorter period of time.

For example, if you have an electric system (batts, controller, motor)
capable of producing 10kw of mechanical output, and you have a
hydraulic system (pressure reservoir, controller, motor) capable of
producing 100kw of mechanical output, then assuming 100% efficiency,
you can run your electric system at 10kw for 100 seconds to charge up
the hydraulic system which then releases the energy as 100kw for 10
seconds.

This means that your electric system can be sized for the average
output (10kw) rather than the peak output (100kw).

Though in reality, every time you convert energy there is a loss -
nothing is 100% efficient - so I don't think that it would make much
sense to set up a electric/hydraulic hybrid as a daily driver compared
to the relative simplicity of (larger sized) plain electric.

I can see the merit for drag racing where you have tens of minutes
between runs to slowly charge up something that can quickly release
that energy down the drag strip.

Right now the electric benchmark is a pack of A123 cells going into a
Z2K controller feeding a pair of Husted-configured motors. Over 500
electric kilowatts producing hundreds of mechanical kilowatts (not
sure of the efficiencies in drag race conditions).

Can a hydraulic system that is small enough and light enough to fit in
a car (with a battery electric charging setup) produce this sort of
power?

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

In a message dated 3/20/2008 4:18:54 PM US Mountain Standard Time, 
[email protected] writes: 
> DL] Driven Man Creates,Electric-Hydraulic Dragster 
> Date:3/20/2008 4:18:54 PM US Mountain Standard Time
> From:[email protected]
> Reply-to:[email protected]
> To:[email protected]
> Received from Internet: 
> 
> 
> 
> I think what they were trying to achieve with the electric charging up
> the hydraulics for drag racing is take advantage of the higher power
> output of the haydraulics over a shorter period of time.
> 
> For example, if you have an electric system (batts, controller, motor)
> capable of producing 10kw of mechanical output, and you have a
> hydraulic system (pressure reservoir, controller, motor) capable of
> producing 100kw of mechanical output, then assuming 100% efficiency,
> you can run your electric system at 10kw for 100 seconds to charge up
> the hydraulic system which then releases the energy as 100kw for 10
> seconds.
> 
> This means that your electric system can be sized for the average
> output (10kw) rather than the peak output (100kw).
> 
> Though in reality, every time you convert energy there is a loss -
> nothing is 100% efficient - so I don't think that it would make much
> sense to set up a electric/hydraulic hybrid as a daily driver compared
> to the relative simplicity of (larger sized) plain electric.
> 
> I can see the merit for drag racing where you have tens of minutes
> between runs to slowly charge up something that can quickly release
> that energy down the drag strip.
> 
> Right now the electric benchmark is a pack of A123 cells going into a
> Z2K controller feeding a pair of Husted-configured motors. Over 500
> electric kilowatts producing hundreds of mechanical kilowatts (not
> sure of the efficiencies in drag race conditions).
> 

Right now the benchmark (official 7.95 qt.mi.et) is AltairNano going into a 
zilla controller with one 11 inch Dennis Berube configured motor.

> Can a hydraulic system that is small enough and light enough to fit in
> a car (with a battery electric charging setup) produce this sort of
> power?

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

I was one of the witnesses to the demo of Mike Blood's electro-hydraulic 
dragster, and I was definitely not impressed with the concept.

The chassis was beautifully fabricated with really top-notch welding, 
but I always thought the basic premise was wrong. When I first saw it, 
it had a small Briggs & Stratton engine driving a jackshaft with a good 
size flywheel on it via a chain. That in turn drove a hydraulic pump 
again by chain. The pump was plumbed up to a hydraulic motor that drove 
the straight rear axle again by chain. There was some sort of 
hydraulic control valve to control fluid flow to the motor. When I next 
saw it, it had been converted to electric drive. The B&S engine was 
replaced by a 9" Advanced DC motor. Eight 12 volt U-1 riding lawn mower 
starter batteries (not deep-cycle)were wired in series to provide power. 
An off-board 48 Volt Lester charger from a Citicar was rewired to 
provide 96 Volts for charging. There was no controller, just a single 
contactor for on-off. The flywheel had also been eliminated. No 
attempt was made to store energy via pressure cylinders, just switch it 
on and dump the valve to go. The motor/chain drive/pump setup produced 
an awful shriek. Acceleration was virtually instantaneous, but the 
speed was very very slow. When it was finally put on the track I 
understand it turn a quarter mile in something like 48 SECONDS. That is 
48 not 4.8. I felt bad for Mike, it must have been very humiliating. 
He kind of drifted away from our group after that.

If anyone is curious, there is a lousy picture at:

http://www.geocities.com/mideaa/EVents/1997-06-22/2.jpg

Mike is the large gent in the dark blue shirt with his back to the camera.

Thanks,

-- 
Mike Chancey,
'88 Civic EV
Kansas City, Missouri
http://evalbum.com/106
EV Photo Album at: http://evalbum.com
My Electric Car at: http://www.geocities.com/electric_honda
Mid-America EAA chapter at: http://maeaa.org
Join the EV List at: http://www.evdl.org

In medio stat virtus - Virtue is in the moderate, not the extreme 
position. (Horace)

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Interesting story. thanks

I am curious that he did all the chain drives. kind of defeats the 
purpose and with no hydraulic pressure storage - again it kind of 
defeats the big benefit of hydraulic storage of power.

it would be interesting to see a hydralic electric combo where on 
highway driving the electric would drive a wheel directly but it also 
would drive a hydraulic accumulator to keep it topped up so if going up 
a hill or accelerating from a start the stored hydraulic pressure would 
kick in for a period of time.




> Mike Chancey wrote:
> > I was one of the witnesses to the demo of Mike Blood's electro-hydraulic
> > dragster, and I was definitely not impressed with the concept.
> >
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Not more efficient but if you use a series DC motor and you want regen 
it is a good system for capturing energy that would be lost. The 
system can be a retro fit and it works. It may not be 100% but all 
systems are less than that anyway. Just some more than others. It is 
just a good way to use what is available.


> Dan Frederiksen wrote:
> 
> > electric motors and generators can be near 100% efficient. how could a
> > mechanical system based on liquid in thin pipes be more efficient?
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

That SHOULD be the goal.

It also might let you eliminate the weight of some batteries if all 
those batteries are used for is too give you more volts ant the same 
power for peak electric performance - and THAT would significantly 
decrease weight.

Of course losing batteries would also decrease range but what it might 
be really good for is a tiny grocery shopper or neighborhood roundabout 
that could accelerate as well as the cars it drives next to thus 
increasing safety and driveability but it only needs a small electric 
motor with hydraulic assist and braking to do it.



> Mark Fowler wrote:
> > I think what they were trying to achieve with the electric charging up
> > the hydraulics for drag racing is take advantage of the higher power
> > output of the haydraulics over a shorter period of time.
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

From: Geopilot
> I am curious that he did all the chain drives. Kind of defeats the 
> purpose and with no hydraulic pressure storage -- again it kind of 
> defeats the big benefit of hydraulic storage of power.

Agreed.

> it would be interesting to see a hydraulic electric combo where on 
> highway driving the electric would drive a wheel directly but it also 
> would drive a hydraulic accumulator to keep it topped up so if going up 
> a hill or accelerating from a start the stored hydraulic pressure would 
> kick in for a period of time.

Prof. Ernie Parker and his students at Hennepin Community College in MN built a variety of experimental hydraulic-ICE hybrids. They did have accumulators, and worked quite well. For example, one could be brought to a stop from 60 mph using the hydraulic wheel motor as a pump to pressurize the energy. The losses, and cruising power came from a Briggs & Stratton garden tractor engine that by itself could barely hold the car at 50 mph.
--

The only thing new is the history you don't know yet. -- Harry Truman
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart-at-earthlink.net

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Dan Frederiksen wrote:
> >> electric motors and generators can be near 100% efficient. how could a
> >> a mechanical system based on liquid in thin pipes be more efficient?
> 
> ...


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