# [EVDL] Range Indicator



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

I, personally, think such a thing would be very useful (I'll give it a 4 on
your scale). The only so-called "state of charge" indicator that I have seen
is a voltmeter which is re-painted to read 0-100%. That's not state of
charge at all. I can drive 15-20 miles on my EV and have my "SOC" gauge read
90%, but I know that I have used up a third of my useful range.

For me now, I use my odometer. It has been a very reliable range indicator
until recently, as my range has been decreasing.

There is (was) a product to do what you describe,

http://www.metricmind.com/evision.htm

although I tried to buy one earlier this year and never received a reply
from the company, so it may not really exist.




> Anita <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> >
> > As an EV user, do you think a =91Range Indicator=92 instead of the
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

I think it would be useful if it reflected current status. If you were
driving with a heavy foot, it should show how that reduces range. If
you are hypermiling, it should show how that increases your range. It
should reflect the sweet spot for efficiency of a motor. If you lug
the motor in a high gear (high amps, slow rpms), not only could it
overheat the motor, it could reduce the range. It could be a good
driver training tool by giving immediate feedback on how your driving
affects range.

Dave Cover



> Dave Hale <[email protected]> wrote:
> > I, personally, think such a thing would be very useful (I'll give it a 4 =
> on
> > your scale). The only so-called "state of charge" indicator that I have s=
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

The evision definitely exists. I have been using one in my truck for 2 years. It is the first thing I thought of when I saw this thread, "I already have a meter that does that." This is the second thread that I have seen lately about someone having a hard time getting ahold of Metricmind. They are local to me but I do not usually have any interaction with them. Has anyone heard from Metricmind or Victor lately? If so maybe you can post the details of how you chased them down. Victor used to be a fairly frequent contributor to this list. He has also historically been very active in the OEVA. I don't really keep up with the OEVA. Has anyone on the list seen Victor lately? 



damon

> Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2010 08:17:23 -0700
> From: [email protected]
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Range Indicator
> 
> I, personally, think such a thing would be very useful (I'll give it a 4 on
> your scale). The only so-called "state of charge" indicator that I have seen
> is a voltmeter which is re-painted to read 0-100%. That's not state of
> charge at all. I can drive 15-20 miles on my EV and have my "SOC" gauge read
> 90%, but I know that I have used up a third of my useful range.
> 
> For me now, I use my odometer. It has been a very reliable range indicator
> until recently, as my range has been decreasing.
> 
> There is (was) a product to do what you describe,
> 
> http://www.metricmind.com/evision.htm
> 
> although I tried to buy one earlier this year and never received a reply
> from the company, so it may not really exist.
> 
_________________________________________________________________
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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

I just looked at their website <http://www.metricmind.com/evision.htm> again
and now it says that they will start accepting orders the week of June
28...Jul 02 (it's near the bottom of the page). I guess that means they
didn't accept orders until now, though I don't remember seeing anything to
that effect.

Around the first of this year I went through their purchasing
procedures<http://www.metricmind.com/info.htm>to request a formal
price quote, etc. which was ignored. Although it looks
like a nice gizmo, I have a hard time begging people to take my money so I
didn't pursue it any further.

How do you like it? Do you find the range and energy calculations to be
reasonably accurate?




> damon henry <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> >
> > The evision definitely exists. I have been using one in my truck for 2
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Hi EVerybody;

"Range Indicator?" Yup this one come up alot? Short of a Sangamo meter =

that Miles, out in Or. has in his Milburn electric? I think THAT is a watt =

hour meter? tells ya WHAT you used, Then YOU have to do the math, or it =

sorta shows you what's left? I've found that a GOOD quality volt meter, say=
, =

a Simpson panel meter will help you alot? After all yur living with your EV=
? =

Pretty soon you just get a "feel" for how much you have used by the voltage =

sag, under heavy load when your out driving, especially IF yur going for =

range?Or IF you have, say, a 120 volt car and you can find a "sweet =

spot"about 75-100 amps and arent a mobile roadblock?Keeping the volts up =

there,@120, and you will go quite a few miles, 2nd gear is mine, in the =

Jetta..Of COURSE yur connections and terminals are electrically "Tight", no=
, =

or very little voltage sag? You soldered them all??No hot connections?You =

SHOULD be able to TOUCH every terminal and connection in the car without =

burning yourself! Surprising how many EV guyz just live with 5-10 volts sag=
, =

which does heat stuff up, a few degrees here, a few THERE?! Like sales =

taxes, it adds up!

I would imagine the production EV folks have to build a "Gas Gage" that =

will show regen, as well as led foot driving, do the math, in its little =

silly- con head and show Joe Sixpack WHAT he has left?

YMMV?

Sea Ya

Bob, and the Gulf bleeds on and on.Waiting for the NEXT Docu flick, " =

BP's ;Twenty Thousand Leaks under the Sea" Apologies to Jules Verne.
----- Original Message ----- =

From: "dave cover" <[email protected]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, June 29, 2010 11:27 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Range Indicator


I think it would be useful if it reflected current status. If you were
driving with a heavy foot, it should show how that reduces range. If
you are hypermiling, it should show how that increases your range. It
should reflect the sweet spot for efficiency of a motor. If you lug
the motor in a high gear (high amps, slow rpms), not only could it
overheat the motor, it could reduce the range. It could be a good
driver training tool by giving immediate feedback on how your driving
affects range.

Dave Cover



> Dave Hale <[email protected]> wrote:
> > I, personally, think such a thing would be very useful (I'll give it a 4 =
> 
> > on
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

The Sangamo amp-hour meters used in the EV's from the early 1900's are
interesting.
They're electro-mechanical Faraday machines like their home electricity
meters used for decades.
And they have a couple patents that cover their "differential shunt"
approach to appropriately reflect the loss in recharging lead acid batteries
vs discharging them. You can set them from 5% to 35% or so of differential
so that, as example, setting to 20% would require 120amp-hours of charge
current to move the meter arm back to the same place after having used
100amp-hours of discharge. My Sangamo meter has stopped accumulating either
way and so I need to remove, inspect and clean it.

-Myles


-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf
Of Bob Rice
Sent: Tuesday, June 29, 2010 9:15 AM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Range Indicator

Hi EVerybody;

"Range Indicator?" Yup this one come up alot? Short of a Sangamo meter 
that Miles, out in Or. has in his Milburn electric? I think THAT is a watt 
hour meter? tells ya WHAT you used, Then YOU have to do the math, or it 
sorta shows you what's left? I've found that a GOOD quality volt meter, say,

a Simpson panel meter will help you alot? After all yur living with your EV?

Pretty soon you just get a "feel" for how much you have used by the voltage 
sag, under heavy load when your out driving, especially IF yur going for 
range?Or IF you have, say, a 120 volt car and you can find a "sweet 
spot"about 75-100 amps and arent a mobile roadblock?Keeping the volts up 
there,@120, and you will go quite a few miles, 2nd gear is mine, in the 
Jetta..Of COURSE yur connections and terminals are electrically "Tight", no,

or very little voltage sag? You soldered them all??No hot connections?You 
SHOULD be able to TOUCH every terminal and connection in the car without 
burning yourself! Surprising how many EV guyz just live with 5-10 volts sag,

which does heat stuff up, a few degrees here, a few THERE?! Like sales 
taxes, it adds up!

I would imagine the production EV folks have to build a "Gas Gage" that 
will show regen, as well as led foot driving, do the math, in its little 
silly- con head and show Joe Sixpack WHAT he has left?

YMMV?

Sea Ya

Bob, and the Gulf bleeds on and on.Waiting for the NEXT Docu flick, " 
BP's ;Twenty Thousand Leaks under the Sea" Apologies to Jules Verne.
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "dave cover" <[email protected]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, June 29, 2010 11:27 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Range Indicator


I think it would be useful if it reflected current status. If you were
driving with a heavy foot, it should show how that reduces range. If
you are hypermiling, it should show how that increases your range. It
should reflect the sweet spot for efficiency of a motor. If you lug
the motor in a high gear (high amps, slow rpms), not only could it
overheat the motor, it could reduce the range. It could be a good
driver training tool by giving immediate feedback on how your driving
affects range.

Dave Cover



> Dave Hale <[email protected]> wrote:
> > I, personally, think such a thing would be very useful (I'll give it a 4
> > on
> > your scale). The only so-called "state of charge" indicator that I have
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

I love my eVision, but I do not come even close to fully utilizing it. I watch ahrs, volts, and sometimes amps. Besides that I have it watch my accersory battery. It can run my stock gas guage if I want it to, but have not hooked it up to that. I also could have it display the same info directly. I find neither function helpful to me as I am always watching ahrs instead. It also can act as a speedo, but I already have one, and the speedo function is linked to a single driveline ratio so would only work correctly in a single gear. If I were to use the speedo I would likely tie it to second gear which is where I do 90% of my driving.



It has many features, with 20 pages of screens that can be set to display up to 3 parameters at a time of your choosing (two digital outputs and one bargraph). It also has the RPM sensor, but strangely can be used as a speedometer but not a tachometer. It has two temperature sensors, a pwm output to drive the stock fuel guage and a volt meter for your 12 volt system.



Ninety-nine percent of the use I get out of mine is watching my pack voltage and ahrs in and out. I also have an alarm state set for my 12 volt system which goes off once in a while. I use 12 BB600 cells (14.4 volts) that I charge seperately for my 12 volt system. I would definitely buy this meter again, that is if I could put my order in 



damon





> Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2010 09:34:21 -0700
> From: [email protected]
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Range Indicator
> 
> I just looked at their website <http://www.metricmind.com/evision.htm> again
> and now it says that they will start accepting orders the week of June
> 28...Jul 02 (it's near the bottom of the page). I guess that means they
> didn't accept orders until now, though I don't remember seeing anything to
> that effect.
> 
> Around the first of this year I went through their purchasing
> procedures<http://www.metricmind.com/info.htm>to request a formal
> price quote, etc. which was ignored. Although it looks
> like a nice gizmo, I have a hard time begging people to take my money so I
> didn't pursue it any further.
> 
> How do you like it? Do you find the range and energy calculations to be
> reasonably accurate?
> 
> 
>


> damon henry <[email protected]> wrote:
> >
> > >
> > > The evision definitely exists. I have been using one in my truck for 2
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Lee Hart <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> >
> > Also, the gauge doesn't have enough information about the battery pack
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2010 11:03:44 -0700
> From: [email protected]
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Range Indicator
> 
>


> Lee Hart <[email protected]> wrote:
> >
> > >
> > > Also, the gauge doesn't have enough information about the battery pack
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2010 11:03:44 -0700
> From: [email protected]
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Range Indicator
> 
>


> Lee Hart <[email protected]> wrote:
> >
> > >
> > > Also, the gauge doesn't have enough information about the battery pack
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Dave Hale wrote:
> 
> > I've wondered about this, how (for example) the Metric Mind
> > unit does with this. Does it know that my batteries are
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Roger Stockton <[email protected]>wrote:
> 
> > You have DOD and SOC mixed up; 20%DOD means you allow only 20% of the
> > caapcity to be used; 20%SOC means you allow the battery to be discharged
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Dave Hale wrote:
> > how (for example) the Metric Mind unit does with
> > this. Does it know that my batteries are aging? Last year (when new) I was
> > getting 60 useful miles (see below) to a charge. Now I am getting about 45.
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Dave Hale wrote:
> 
> > > You have DOD and SOC mixed up; 20%DOD means you allow only
> > > 20% of the caapcity to be used; 20%SOC means you allow the
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Would Excess range be a god number to have?
Let us say we had the google maps and gps and wh meter all tied together in a little iphone sized application that ran in the car's
meter.

Calculate the energy to get home from where you are at based on google maps,gps and historical data, subtract the energy used so
far. Then divide by the higher average of the wh/mile so far. Now we have a small amount of miles to display we can drive before we
cannot get back home. This obviously changes as we change direction. (And assumes we are heading home. Perhaps home is assumed, but
you can enter your destination into google maps before you take off and use that data. )

If the car manufacturers have their way. I believe they will just stop when they hit their programmed range. Maybe provide a 1/2
power limp mode in the last 5%.

The Tesla does have a little touch screen embedded computer that gives estimates, maybe new gadgets to predict range will be the
bluetooth /sync differentiator between brands.


I think knowing the current and average wh/mile and miles to go are best, the human adjusts their driveing or charging profile. If
we wait until the pack is dead, we have obviously notified them to late.





> > Anita wrote:
> >> As an EV user, do you think a Range Indicator instead of the
> >> State-of-Charge indicator would be more useful to the driver? This range
> >> indicator would show the precise live changes to the remaining range while
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

I saw a PDF online that was a research paper on determining age and capacity on a lead acid battery.
It was research that has become the circuitry in high end battery testers. I do not know yet if I trust it, but the concept was to
use a variety of measurements taken at different frequencies to measure the impeadenc at various points. This is fitted against
known curves to determine the remaining capacity.


>


> Lee Hart <[email protected]> wrote:
> >
> >> >
> >> > Also, the gauge doesn't have enough information about the battery pack
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Jeff Shanab <[email protected]> wrote:
> > Would Excess range be a god number to have?
> > Let us say we had the google maps and gps and wh meter all tied together in a little iphone sized application that ran in the car's
> > meter.
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Roger Stockton <[email protected]>wrote:
> 
> > Dave Hale wrote:
> >
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Dave Hale wrote:
> 
> > Well, I guess I have to define better what I'm talking about
> > here. I've never determined any *true* measure of SOC/DOD. I
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

I have seen Victor in the last 3 weeks - he is very busy right now, as he is 
moving his work office rom his house basement to another location. But you 
can get him easily - just be aware that you need to call him after 11:00 AM 
PDT, and the best time to catch him is probably after 1:30PM PDT. Or email 
him anytime - like I said, he's busy, but will generally call you back the 
same day.

Joseph H. Strubhar

Web: www.gremcoinc.com

E-mail: [email protected]


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "damon henry" <[email protected]>
To: "EV List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, June 29, 2010 9:10 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Range Indicator


>
> The evision definitely exists. I have been using one in my truck for 2 
> years. It is the first thing I thought of when I saw this thread, "I 
> already have a meter that does that." This is the second thread that I 
> have seen lately about someone having a hard time getting ahold of 
> Metricmind. They are local to me but I do not usually have any 
> interaction with them. Has anyone heard from Metricmind or Victor lately? 
> If so maybe you can post the details of how you chased them down. Victor 
> used to be a fairly frequent contributor to this list. He has also 
> historically been very active in the OEVA. I don't really keep up with 
> the OEVA. Has anyone on the list seen Victor lately?
>
>
>
> damon
>
>> Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2010 08:17:23 -0700
>> From: [email protected]
>> To: [email protected]
>> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Range Indicator
>>
>> I, personally, think such a thing would be very useful (I'll give it a 4 
>> on
>> your scale). The only so-called "state of charge" indicator that I have 
>> seen
>> is a voltmeter which is re-painted to read 0-100%. That's not state of
>> charge at all. I can drive 15-20 miles on my EV and have my "SOC" gauge 
>> read
>> 90%, but I know that I have used up a third of my useful range.
>>
>> For me now, I use my odometer. It has been a very reliable range 
>> indicator
>> until recently, as my range has been decreasing.
>>
>> There is (was) a product to do what you describe,
>>
>> http://www.metricmind.com/evision.htm
>>
>> although I tried to buy one earlier this year and never received a reply
>> from the company, so it may not really exist.
>>
> _________________________________________________________________
> The New Busy think 9 to 5 is a cute idea. Combine multiple calendars with 
> Hotmail.
> http://www.windowslive.com/campaign/thenewbusy?tile=multicalendar&ocid=PID28326::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WM_HMP:042010_5
> -------------- next part --------------
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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Dave Hale wrote:
> 
> Well, I guess I have to define better what I'm talking about here. I've
> never determined any *true* measure of SOC/DOD. I am merely using the
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*[EVDL] range indicator*

Now a days when some body asks what's the range, I say some where
between 10 to 100 miles depending on your driving . This either leads
to more questions or not . There are certain questions that get on
the list that show who has driven an EV for awhile and who has not.
Bob Rice talks from the heart and lots of experience. That "feel " of
the volt meter and how soft the voltage is when you put your foot into
it, is well know to EV drivers . I'm sure Bob and many other long
time EV drivers could do very well with just a Volt Meter . I want an
ah counter so I can also tell the health of my batteries , like after
pulling 100 ah from a Golf Cart Battery, ... whats it is the voltage
under a 100 amp load . In the past I've encouraged people to get an
Amp Hour Meter for this and other reasons .. Most new drivers want A
SIMPLE full and empty gauge or even better one that would tell how
many miles are left. I would ask those people " would you like a
full to empty gauge that when it reads empty the batteries are still
1/2 full . This may be the best answer for those who want a meter to
say how many miles are left . This will save the batteries, but of
course, won't give them maximum range.

Steve Clunn

-- 
Tomorrows Ride TODAY !
Visit our shop web page at: www.Greenshedconversions.com

_______________________________________________
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----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Collin Kidder <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> > Put another way, if you can figure out how far you can go on each 10%
> > worth of energy then a computer could too. It might be hard, there might
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

On 6/30/2010 10:42 AM, Evan Tuer wrote:
>


> Collin Kidder<[email protected]> wrote:
> >
> >> Put another way, if you can figure out how far you can go on each 10%
> >> worth of energy then a computer could too. It might be hard, there might
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Collin Kidder wrote:
> 
> > I think that many of the replies have been somewhat typical
> > engineering pessimism. You find worst case scenarios and run
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Roger Stockton <[email protected]>wrote:
> 
> > Dave Hale wrote:
> >
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] range indicator*



> Steve Clunn wrote:
> > Most new drivers want A SIMPLE full and empty gauge or even better
> > one that would tell how many miles are left.
> 
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] range indicator*



> Lee Hart wrote:
> >
> > At this point I gave up. He wouldn't pay for any of the gauges or work I
> > did. "They don't work" in his opinion, even though they do exactly what
> ...


----------

