# [EVDL] Need the Tango on a dyno



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Ooohhh Aahhh....I want one !! 
Tom Meyers
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Ryan Stotts" <[email protected]>
To: "EVDL" <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, August 13, 2008 9:06 PM
Subject: [EVDL] Need the Tango on a dyno


> Some big numbers are thrown about:
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AseYg2rZQW0
> 
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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

I think I remember reading that their high-end model uses a Zilla and dual
DC motors; that makes their performance claims quite believable.

640kW > 800HP

-Morgan LaMoore



> Ryan Stotts <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> > Some big numbers are thrown about:
> >
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Website states they use dual FB4001's and a zilla 2k.


On 8/13/08, Morgan LaMoore <[email protected]> wrote:
> I think I remember reading that their high-end model uses a Zilla and dual
> DC motors; that makes their performance claims quite believable.
>
> 640kW > 800HP
>
> -Morgan LaMoore
>
>


> Ryan Stotts <[email protected]> wrote:
> >
> > > Some big numbers are thrown about:
> > >
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

i've been up close and personal with one in the Bay area. Kinda ugly 
but unique. Very well made. Solid things. 100+ K is pretty steep but 
to each their own. I'd take the Tesla over the Tango any day. But I 
could take possession of a Tango where I'd still be waiting for the 
Tesla. I believe they are fast and the performance claims are for 
bursts and not constant. I'd never take one of the Tangos to 150+ mph. 
Would you? The one I looked at was blue. I believe it is Tango number 3.


Pete





> Ryan Stotts wrote:
> 
> > Some big numbers are thrown about:
> >
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

http://www.commutercars.com/

The blue on I got to see and talk to the owner. You know the other 
owner.

The red is number 1
The black one is number 2
The blue is number 3





> Ryan Stotts wrote:
> 
> > Some big numbers are thrown about:
> >
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> nicolas drouin wrote:
> > Website states they use dual FB4001's and a zilla 2k.
> 
> Yes; that's what the one I drove had in it. The Tango is real, and it is
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

On Wed, 13 Aug 2008 20:06:37 -0500, "Ryan Stotts" <[email protected]>


> wrote:
> 
> >Some big numbers are thrown about:
> >
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Not so. Neon, you're mostly gas.

I know Rick and his son. They are anything but liars. Their stats are
correct. They designed and built the Tango completely from scratch. Their
product was the first commercial EV available that could deliver real speed,
safe speed. I as I understand it their main problem has been finding
venture capital to help them go into mass production to get the price down.

In the world of commercial EV's, most ''product" doesn't exist. The Tango
has been out for a few years now and has a track record, literally. Maybe
some folks only see an EV as worthwhile if it looks sexy, whatever that
means. Rick's intention, thought through as an engineer. has been to
deliver an electric car that's safer and faster than what we have currently
limited our vision to. He has done that. I think he's due some respect.

Idgit
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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

I agree with Idgit. Rick and his son are smart folks. A lot of time and energy has gone into bringing the Tango to market. In this era of hype and vaporware EV's, these guys came to market with something that, IMHO, is far better than a Sparrow, and was on the market before the Tesla.

I'll admit that I don't know Rick & family very well, but what I do know is that they are not liars. That'd be like calling a politician honest and trustworthy.

When was the last time you changed the oil in your electric? When was the last time you had to replace the timing belt, fuel pump, air filter, spark plugs, plug wires, ignition coil, distributor cap, rotor, water pump, fan belt, or anything else of that sort? He may be exaggerating a bit, but changing the brushes in the motor is nothing compared to the 5000 mile services that an ICE requires.

He isn't "desperate to make a sale", he's EVangelistic about his product. This car has been his dream for many years, and he's proud of it like as if his kid's graduating from college with honors.

If I recall, and it may be changed at this point, the Tango comes with gearing that will get you up to 100-120 mph, but the gearing can be changed for higher speeds. It can also be changed for lower speeds, but then it will just sit there and roast the tires unless you dial back the controller. Just because it's "direct drive" doesn't mean the ratio is so high that the motors are straining under the load. Heck, the thing has what, 12" wheels? Imagine the power savings just from the reduced diameter!

As for the splitting- this was the whole vision for the concept of the car. With a car like this you can fit 4 cars on the road in about the same space that a full size SUV takes up. If everyone drove one (unrealistic, I know) then that quadruples the capacity of our existing infrastructure without spending a dime to widen roads to compensate for additional traffic. Splitting a lane with another motorcycle is not unsafe. Splitting the line between two cars is "iffy" since you don't know what those cars are going to do. He's not talking so much about splitting between cars, he's talking about lane sharing. If our lanes were "double wide" today, we could still safely have two cars right next to each other, because that's what we do today. The same is true with the Tango. Each one only needs half a lane... so long as you trust that the other Tango will stay in his half of the lane (just like you trust that the guzzler in the lane next to you will stay in theirs) then th!
ere's nothing unsafe about that.

I think Rick & Co are great folks, they have an awesome attitude, and they've built a wonderful product. If I had $100k to spend on a car today, I'd buy a tango because it fits my lifestyle better than a Tesla.

My $0.02. 

cheers,
dj


Neon John(jgd) wrote:
> On Wed, 13 Aug 2008 20:06:37 -0500, "Ryan Stotts" <[email protected]>
> wrote:
> 
> >Some big numbers are thrown about:
> >
> >http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AseYg2rZQW0
> 
> Just shows that there are liars, damn liars and EV liars. Ignoring the crazy
> HP claims for a moment, did anyone else choke at the "motor runs millions of
> miles without maintenance" bit? Really? Brushed motors can do that? Ahem.
> 
> Then there's the problem that gets discussed all the time here. If that car
> really will run over 100 mph with no transmission, then at normal driving
> speeds, the motors will be operating at very low speed and very high amperage.
> I wonder how long the brushes will last under those conditions? Oh, I forgot.
> Millions of miles.....
> 
> Someone ought to whisper in Rick's ear and tell him that sounding like a Ginzu
> knife hawker doesn't really work for a $100k product. Dude, stop and take a
> breath every so often! He sounded desperate to make a sale. He probably is.
> Or maybe the silicone-enhanced bimbette had his brain scrambled  He's
> certainly obsessed with that lane-splitting notion. It may be legal but just
> like with a motorcycle, it's a great way to get killed.
> 
> I'm kind of attracted to the car in a dorky sort of way. But certainly not
> $100k worth. I can imagine someone with more money than sense dropping a
> hundred large on a Tesla - after all, it could be a chick magnet. But one
> hundred g's for, um, what would you call it? An overgrown golf cart? Talk
> about missing your market slot!
> 
> If this thing were priced at even $15-20k, it might sell. At $100k? Well, no
> wonder sales are still single digits. Too bad. Like the Sparrow, it's a car
> that's so ugly that it grows on you and suddenly you want one. Then you hear
> the price and your sensible side says "walk away".
> 
> John
> --
> John De Armond
> See my website for my current email address
> http://www.neon-john.com
> http://www.johndearmond.com <-- best little blog on the net!
> Tellico Plains, Occupied TN
> There is nothing more frightening than active ignorance. ~Goethe
> 
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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Nevertheless, they exaggerated (by a factor of 50 or more) their
maintenance schedule. There is no way any brushed motor (especially
direct drive) going "millions of miles" without maintenance. Anybody
who knows about brushed motors knows this, and thus will instantly
dismiss him as a nut.


Tim
-------
> Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2008 07:35:43 -0700 (PDT)
> From: Idgit <[email protected]>
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Need the Tango on a dyno
> To: [email protected]
>
> I know Rick and his son. They are anything but liars. Their stats are
> correct. They designed and built the Tango completely from scratch. Their
> product was the first commercial EV available that could deliver real speed,
> safe speed. I as I understand it their main problem has been finding
> venture capital to help them go into mass production to get the price down.

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

They have my full respect and they know it too. Damn nice job even 
though it looks like a skrunched box. They guy with number 3 says you 
have to be very carful when you accelerate. It is very fast. Very Very 
fast.


Pete





> Idgit wrote:
> 
> > I think he's due some respect.
> 
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

I've heard Rick describe it (via a comment someone made to him) as a "Filing cabinet on wheels."

Another reason I'd pick the Tango over the Tesla is that nobody will suspect something so "small and cute" could dust a supercar off the line. 

cheers,
dj

[email protected](gottdi) wrote:
> They have my full respect and they know it too. Damn nice job even 
> though it looks like a skrunched box. They guy with number 3 says you 
> have to be very carful when you accelerate. It is very fast. Very Very 
> fast.
> 
> 
> Pete
> 
> 
> 
>


> Idgit wrote:
> >
> > > I think he's due some respect.
> >
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Last time I saw the Tango driving around Spokane it was just a steel bar
roll cage... no body at all. And yes, it was rediculously fast. If it
still has has the full steel roll cage meeting racing standards inside the
body and the five point harness it's probably a bit safer than most small
cars out there.



> Justin Scott <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> > I've heard Rick describe it (via a comment someone made to him) as a
> > "Filing cabinet on wheels."
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

On Thu, 14 Aug 2008 07:35:43 -0700 (PDT), Idgit <[email protected]> wrote:

>
>Not so. Neon, you're mostly gas.
>
>I know Rick and his son. They are anything but liars. Their stats are
>correct. They designed and built the Tango completely from scratch. Their
>product was the first commercial EV available that could deliver real speed,
>safe speed. I as I understand it their main problem has been finding
>venture capital to help them go into mass production to get the price down.

So the brushed motors really will run for millions of miles without service?

As for venture capital, an A-number-1 clue that your idea has problems is that
VC run away laughing.

100 large for a car that looks like it could be pushed over with one finger? I
bet the VCs choke with laughter. Yeah, I know it has a very low CG and is
stable but perception is reality in consumer marketing and the perception is
that it'll topple over like a house of cards.

BTW, I like the nym. Apropos.

John
--
John De Armond
See my website for my current email address
http://www.neon-john.com
http://www.johndearmond.com <-- best little blog on the net!
Tellico Plains, Occupied TN
Better to pass boldly into that other world in the full glory of some passion
than fade and wither dismally with age. -Joyce

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Justin Scott <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> 
> >He isn't "desperate to make a sale", he's EVangelistic about his product. This car has been his dream for many years, and he's proud of it like as if his kid's graduating from college with honors.
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

I always respect your opinion Jim, but Rick Woodbury never said the "motor
runs millions of miles without maintence once." Nor did he say, "the
brushed motors really will run for millions of miles without service." Neon
John said that, and blew a lot of other gas. 

What Rick did say on the 2 minute interview was "motors that basically run
for millions of miles that won't wear out." He didn't say they were
maintenance free. And about HP I believe he was describing how powerful the
Z2K controller can be. "the controller can produce 800 HP." The Z2K is
capable of producing 640 KW.

Rick has produced a car that can accelerate very quickly, go well over a
100mph, has a custom direct drive box, can go 80 - 150 miles on a charge,
has race car safety specs, has air conditioning, and is actually available
for purchase. That's a better achievement than most in the EV world. Are
we to trip him up because he didn't mention brush changeouts?





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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Neon John(jgd) wrote:
> I don't really feel like writing a physics 101 post [snip]
> The tire size doesn't matter. 

It seems I misspoke in regards to the tire sizes, they are 195/45-14 front and 215/45-15 rear. Still very small and light.

Tire size does matter. A tire that turns 600 revs per mile equates to a higher (numerically lower) ratio than a tire that turns 800 revs per mile.

But my point was in regards to the lower moment of inertia required for the smaller, lighter wheel and tire as opposed to the larger heavier tire that one would find on a typical conversion vehicle.

I apologize for not making that point clearer.

I'm with you on the fact that he's a little too over the top, and making some wild claims... but lets not throw him in the same bin with the guy who wants us all to believe his "Surge Electric Motor" allows you to have an perpetual-energy over-unity powered vehicle. 

Also, you made a point about PR and Engineers. I'll stay away from the media, personally... but I'm not one to tell Rick how to do his thing. If I came up with $100k tomorrow, I'd call him and place an order... or, if he had one that met my needs tomorrow at a price I can afford, I'd call him and place an order... but like you said, I'm a "true believer" and not the average consumer.

cheers,
dj

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Bill Dennis <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> > Then I have to cringe when I tell
> > them 30 HP--but quickly try to add that electric motors are rated by
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

And that's a great point as well, Andre'. Many people don't realize that the fuel pump provides many times more pressure and volume than the engine can consume even at peak. The excess is returned back to the tank.

Similarly, a controller can provide far more than the motor can utilize.

It is undoubtedly a "shady" sort of statistic, but he never says the car has 800 HP, just the controller can produce that much raw power.

Still- most drivers, like another poster pointed out, buy based on a peak HP figure and think that's what they're getting. I've got into discussions with engineering-challenged friends who actually believe if they buy a 200 HP vehicle, they are using 200 HP at all times, regardless of speed or throttle position. This may be part of what contributes to the feeling that a 30 HP continuous rated electric motor is "wimpy" even though the same motor can realistically make a large HP peak.

So many consumers buy a HP figure, and then never make use of the actual HP, instead driving below the torque peak. I know (and many readers of this list know) that torque in foot pounds and horsepower are related to each other via the mystical magical number 5252 and the rpm that it's turning at, but the average consumer does not. I recall having a discussion with someone about a large semi tractor diesel engine (and diesels in general) and he could not believe that there are tractors on the road rated "as low as" 300 HP... After a little time at the white board and explaining things to him, he came to realize that 300 HP at 1500 RPM is the same as 1050 ft-lbs of torque, which blew his mind.

As an aside, in that same discussion, we were talking about watts in relation to HP, and how the rest of the world rates their motors in kW and we still rate by HP. He about blew a gasket laughing when I informed him that James Watt was the first to come up with an accepted measure of "horse power". 

Tango... Sensationalized, perhaps... unnecessarily so, perhaps... still a damn good vehicle worthy of a chance at fulfilling many drivers majority driving needs, definitely.

cheers,
dj

Andre' Blanchard(andre) wrote:
> At 09:34 AM 8/15/2008, you wrote:
> > So I can't fault Rick
> >for giving the peak HP that the controller could produce.
> >
> >Bill Dennis
> 
> The equivalent on a IC powered car would be the max flow rate of the fuel 
> pump (controller) which would translate to thousands of HP in most any car.
> 
> __________
> Andre' B. Clear Lake, Wi.
> 
> 
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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Great. The next time I hear a hemi add on TV, I'll listen for the fuel 
flow rate info. The point I was making: ICE manufactures advertise 
power levels all the time that their product will never achieve, yet 
it's accepted. People aren't calling them to the mat on it. Rick's 
comments weren't out of line with that.

Bill



> Andre' Blanchard wrote:
> > At 09:34 AM 8/15/2008, you wrote:
> >
> >> So I can't fault Rick
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

They haven't done that for decades, ever since they switched
from "brake horsepower" to SAE. Horsepower ratings are done
on a standard chassis dyno with accessories installed, and
mathematically corrected to a temperature/air pressure standard.

Mazda overstated the horsepower on the RX-8 when it first came
out (242 hp. rather than 232 hp.) Not only did people call them on
the mat, they were subject to a lawsuit and offered full refunds to
any RX-8 buyer who was unhappy with the horsepower of the car.
Rick shouldn't expect any less.


Tim

--------
Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2008 09:39:36 -0600
From: Bill Dennis <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Need the Tango on a dyno
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <[email protected]>
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed

Great. The next time I hear a hemi add on TV, I'll listen for the fuel
flow rate info. The point I was making: ICE manufactures advertise
power levels all the time that their product will never achieve, yet
it's accepted. People aren't calling them to the mat on it. Rick's
comments weren't out of line with that.

Bill

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Your sagged Volts x Amps are a better measure ofpower than the motor nam=
eplate rating.
AC and sepex motors have a constant torque mode, and a constant power mode.=
For AC propulsion's system, the switch from constant torque to constant po=
wer occurs near the middle of the rpm range. You don't really have a conven=
tional "power peak." This is the reason AC cars are faster than the horsepo=
wer numbers would imply. Note: The constant power modedoes not apply to =
series motors, that tend to drop off faster than constant power at higher r=
pm.
In response to another post, I think modern car makers are pretty honest ab=
out car horsepower. When the mustang dyno'd less than spec, Ford did a reca=
ll that ground off a bad casting in the intake to fix the problem. Camaros =
and Corvettes are conservative in horsepower, to the point that some will d=
yno rear wheel horsepower higher than the spec flywheel number. That would =
be a caution for Tesla, enthusiasts will keep you honest on horsepower numb=
ers.
When I have plugged in dyno curves (that matched manufacturer's spec) with =
car coast-down parameters, I have calculated very close to actual 0 to 60 a=
nd 1/4 mile times and top speeds -- so I think the numbers tend to be prett=
y honest. Did your Coronet predate SAE horsepower numbers? Modern numbers h=
ave everything hooked up.


----- Original Message ----
From: Bill Dennis <[email protected]>
To: [email protected]; Electric Vehicle Discussion List <[email protected]=
s.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Friday, August 15, 2008 8:34:39 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Need the Tango on a dyno

On the HP question, remember that ICE cars give their HP as the peak =

rating. I used to have a 1968 Coronet with a 330 HP engine. There was =

no way thing car would ever get close to 330 HP output. Yet that's how =

powerful people think the car is when you tell them the HP rating from =

the manufacturer. That's always one of the first questions people ask =

me about my EV: how many horsepower? Then I have to cringe when I tel=
l =

them 30 HP--but quickly try to add that electric motors are rated by =

their continuous HP where ICE cars are rated by their peak HP. Their =

eyes glaze over, and they go away from the conversation and tell their =

friends that I have a wimpy 30 HP motor in my EV. So I can't fault Rick =

for giving the peak HP that the controller could produce.



=

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Bill Dennis wrote:
> > The point I was making: ICE manufactures advertise power levels all
> > the time that their product will never achieve, yet it's accepted.
> > People aren't calling them to the mat on it. Rick's comments weren't
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Hello Jim and All,



> Jim Husted wrote:
> 
> > As to your "brushed motor" comment, IMO, if you're not getting brush life that's counted in years, you've bought yourself an >
> > improperly sized motor, plain and simple! When I visted John Bryan in Boise on the trip back from Joliet, he wanted me to > have
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Did its 300V nominal pack only sag to 300V under 2000A draw?

I want one of those packs. When I get to 1500 amps from the batteries they are sagged to 225V.
Thats 337KW and around 452HP into the motors. The Dyno only registered 314HP to the wheels.

I wish I could afford to put it up on the dyno after every tweak

;-)

Mike

----- Original Message -----
From: Lee Hart <[email protected]>
Date: Friday, August 15, 2008 2:41 pm
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Need the Tango on a dyno
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <[email protected]>



> > Bill Dennis wrote:
> > > The point I was making: ICE manufactures advertise power levels all
> > > the time that their product will never achieve, yet it's accepted.
> > > People aren't calling them to the mat on it. Rick's comments
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Lee,

I thought the Zilla ratings are motor amps out, not battery amps in. 
Also, since HP is the product of speed and torque, the HP at 0 RPM is 
0. HP only becomes relevant at high speed. Torque is what gives you 
acceleration, not HP. HP gives you sustained torque as speed 
increases. Per Jim Husted and George at Netgain, the max motor 
voltage is 170V. So, figuring about 75% motor Eff. and 98% controller 
efficiency wouldn't the maximum HP be 170V x 2000A x.75 x .98/.746 = 
335 HP?

Unless your going for a world speed record or something, HP is not 
that big of a deal. Its torque that gives you acceleration and hill 
climbing ability. HP give you speed.

Am I wrong?

Roger




> Lee Hart wrote:
> 
> > Exactly. The Tango I drove had a 300v pack and a 2000amp controller.
> > It
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

>
> Unless your going for a world speed record or something, HP is not
> that big of a deal. Its torque that gives you acceleration and hill
> climbing ability. HP give you speed.
>
> Am I wrong?
>
Yes.
It's power that gives acceleration not torque alone.
You have to have both.
You can have oodles of torque but if you don't have some rpm nothing will 
happen.
You can have oodles of rpm but if you don't have some torque nothing will 
happen.
The ability to accelerate is based on the product of the two.
Tom Meyers 

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> MIKE WILLMON wrote:
> > Did its 300V nominal pack only sag to 300V under 2000A draw?
> > I want one of those packs. When I get to 1500 amps from the batteries they are sagged to 225V.
> > Thats 337KW and around 452HP into the motors. The Dyno only registered 314HP to the wheels.
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Roger Heuckeroth wrote:
> > Lee,
> >
> > I thought the Zilla ratings are motor amps out, not battery amps in.
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Can the commutators on the adc 9s withstand 2000A?
I thought they start to pitt after about 1000A.

Matt 

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf
Of Lee Hart
Sent: Saturday, 16 August 2008 10:41 AM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Need the Tango on a dyno



> Roger Heuckeroth wrote:
> > Lee,
> >
> > I thought the Zilla ratings are motor amps out, not battery amps in.
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

But my pack is a 360V pack and rests after full charge in the 384V range.
At the 1500 Battery current limit that I set, the sag is to 225V. I just
can't afford the weight of the Exides or Optimas. Besides, the power
density of two each of the smaller Genesis batteries is slightly better that
the single larger one. Now if I could go to 3 full strings of 30 batteries
that WOULD be a full 2000+ amp pack. But too much weight :-( Wouldn't I
love to be able to afford some A123's :-D 

Mike 

> -----Original Message-----
> From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On
> Behalf Of Lee Hart
> Sent: Friday, August 15, 2008 6:33 PM
> To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Need the Tango on a dyno
> 


> > MIKE WILLMON wrote:
> > > Did its 300V nominal pack only sag to 300V under 2000A draw?
> > > I want one of those packs. When I get to 1500 amps from the batteries
> > they are sagged to 225V.
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Bill Dennis <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> >Great. The next time I hear a hemi add on TV, I'll listen for the fuel
> >flow rate info. The point I was making: ICE manufactures advertise
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Lee Hart <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> >Bill Dennis wrote:
> >> The point I was making: ICE manufactures advertise power levels all
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

That's just about what I found with the Pinto on the dyno last week.
Electrical Power from the controller AND motors showed ~450HP
WHP from the dyno showed 314 HP.

I think the reason regular drag race calculators don't work is that since
the Pinto (and quite possibly the Tango) are operating in a current, voltage
or saturation limit, the HP to the wheels is pretty much flat across the
whole measured rpm band. The gas cars who the calculators are built for are
far from constant power devices 

Mike 

> -----Original Message-----
> From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On
> Behalf Of Neon John
> 
> And yet if one takes the published weight, 0-60 and quarter mile times
> and
> works the math (or uses one of the many drag racing analyzer programs
> to do
> the math for him), he sees that somewhere in the neighborhood of 300-
> 350 HP
> are actually powering the car.
> 


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Is this a similar set-up to John's White Zombie? His claims are about 
300 HP and 772 ft-lbs of torque? Now I know he is running a siamese 
8" instead of the two 9" motors in the Tango, so 1000 ft-lbs sounds 
credible due to the larger motors, but 800 HP does seam like an 
exaggeration.

My understanding is that the controller starts with the motors in 
series to provide maximum torque for launching the car and then 
switches to parallel for the higher voltage needed to counter back EMF 
to maintain speed.

I'm not disputing that the Tango is fast. I have no doubt that it is 
extremely fast. Just that 800 HP figure..



> Lee Hart wrote:
> 
> >
> > The Tango has *two* motors. The Zilla controller shifts them between
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Tom,

I think we are basically on the same page. This is my understanding.

Sustaining torque at speed requires power, however, when you start out 
from a stop the and nail the accelerator, the controller puts out up 
to its maximum current, but at very little voltage. The voltage 
climbs as speed increases due to back electromagnetic force EMF that 
the spinning motor produces. As you accelerate the voltage increases 
until you hit a limit(battery limit, controller limit). As you 
accelerate past this point your current starts decreasing, which 
lowers your toque output. Your HP peak occurs as you hit the current/ 
voltage limit, or slightly above this point if the toque does not fall 
off quicker than the RPM increases.

F=MA and F= Torque at the axle / radius of the axle. So clearly 
acceleration is directly proportional to torque. HP is the product of 
speed and torque, so HP is required to maintain torque once things 
start moving.

Roger



> EVstuff wrote:
> 
> >>
> >> Unless your going for a world speed record or something, HP is not
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

His actual wording was "the controller can produce over 800 horsepower"

The Zilla specifications list a maximum power of 640kW, which is 858 HP.
You're not going to get that much without an almost perfect battery pack,
though.

I think that's all the 800HP number was based on. 800HP isn't making it to
the wheels; 800HP probably isn't even making it out of the battery pack. The
controller is capable of 800HP, even though the rest of the electronics
aren't.

It's a pretty meaningless figure, and it seems somewhat deceiving to throw
out the 800HP number without also giving the actual dyno HP number.

800HP is 1800A at 331V. (I think 1800A was the max Zilla battery current at
high input voltages; it might have been lower, which would make things
worse.) If your battery is 375V (Z2k-EHV max), you'll need less than 24mOhms
of resistance in your batteries and wiring to get enough power out of them.
And even then, power would go down as soon as your surface charge burned up.

-Morgan LaMoore



> Roger Heuckeroth <[email protected]>wrote:
> 
> > Is this a similar set-up to John's White Zombie? His claims are about
> > 300 HP and 772 ft-lbs of torque? Now I know he is running a siamese
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Uh, off the line, the controller can put out 2000A and with the motor in
series, each can see 170V so [email protected] of the controller is 906 Hp
now of course, There are losses so the numbers sound ok to me. But a
dyno would be nice

Another way of calculateing HP is torque * rpm / 5252
What is the torque of each motor at 2000A?
Can the motors still accept 2000A at say 500rpm?

A dyno chart would be very nice to have.
I was looking at the dyno chart of the crazy horse pinto, This is
similar with dual 9's and a zilla 2K and was wondering if he has it
dialed all the way up or is this just it. 314hp

The peak torque is 1260 ft.lbs or 630 ftlbs/motor I wish we had amps
and volts to go with these. but assuming the voltage is limiting this
should be 170V @2000A

It is hard to estimate,

torque = k* i^2 where k is .0085 according to UVE's

.0085*2000*2000 = 34,000 .Uve doesn't mention any units and assumes a
linear relationship so this number is meaningless

The extended chart at evparts says 240lbft for 1000A if we multiplied
that by 2, it would be 480lbft/motor, but crazy horse dyno's higher.
The issue is the wheel torque is not motor torque. I see a 3.25 rear
end (and roughly 27" dia tires?) and that means his motor torque is only
388/2 or 193 per motor.
THis indicates he is only pushing 800A thru the motors. I am very
confused, has he not dialed it up yet or is the zilla 2K a waste here?

The numbers just don't add up in my mind yet.

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Roger Heuckeroth wrote:
> > Tom,
> 
> > F=MA and F= Torque at the axle / radius of the axle. So clearly
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Jeff Shanab <[email protected]> wrote:
> >
> > Uh, off the line, the controller can put out 2000A and with the motor in
> > series, each can see 170V so [email protected] of the controller is 906 Hp
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T

-----Original Message-----
From: Steve Peterson <[email protected]>

Date: Sat, 16 Aug 2008 08:18:14 
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List<[email protected]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Need the Tango on a dyno





> Roger Heuckeroth wrote:
> > Tom,
> 
> > F=MA and F= Torque at the axle / radius of the axle. So clearly
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

I wasn't aware of any wild claims for the EV1 (or the Chrysler TEVan, Honda EV+, Toyota RAV4EV, or Ford Ranger EV). Just curious if you knew any specific examples of wrongly spec'd performance for an EV you could buy or lease from the major automakers.



----- Original Message ----
From: Neon John <[email protected]>
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <[email protected]>
Sent: Saturday, August 16, 2008 1:06:14 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Need the Tango on a dyno

... Try as I might, I can't think of a single commercial EV product that has lived up to claimed performance. Exhibit A are the prevaricators over at Tesla. Even the company founder dude is saying in his blog that he's only getting around 125 miles out of a charge when driving sportily. IOW, as the car was designed to be driven. 125 miles worth of high performance driving would have been a great achievement, something to brag about, so why did they feel the need to tell that range whopper of a lie?

Aside from the inherent evil of lying, it is counter-productive. Who leave
the track with the most creds? The poseur or the sleeper? ...



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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

<snip>
> Exhibit A are the prevaricators over at Tesla.
> Even the company founder dude is saying in his blog that he's only getting
> around 125 miles out of a charge when driving sportily. IOW, as the car was
> designed to be driven. 125 miles worth of high performance driving would have
> been a great achievement, something to brag about, so why did they feel the
> need to tell that range whopper of a lie?
<snip>

I am not sure I would be so crass about this. Range was very
respectfully quoted as range following standard government drive cycles.
What you are seeing here is what I think is one of the inherent
differences between ICE and Electric

In an ICE where you waste 75% as heat and get maybe 20% to the ground in
normal driving, you drive like a maniac and you are still wasteing the
base 75%, maybe now 85%. The effect on range is smaller.

In an electric, the tables are flipped, you waste 25% and use 75% to
move you. Spirited driving now has a much bigger impact on range.

It seems counter-intuitive, but I have definitely noticed this effect.

The other is the "point of no return" like flying a plane out over the
ocean. In fact Fuel consumption is more like flight where windspeed and
direction play a big part in range. WHere Rate of Use effects us more.

The surprise is that, I would have attributed most of this to the Pukert
effect in a lead acid EV, but the tesla is not so prone to that, it
should be more like the ICE than one of our lead sleads.

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Jeff,
I limit the battery current to 1500A max because of the batteries. The Xe16
is rated for 750 A and so the two strings total 1500A. No voltage limit is
set for Series mode and currently the parallel mode is set for 160V. We'll
bump it to 180V tomorrow at the track. 

Torque is torque whether its at the tire surface or at the motor shaft. Its
just force times a radius. So torque at the wheels is torque at the motor.

I'll try to get the curves with all the voltages and currents overlaid on
the dyno graph posted here pretty soon.

Mike

> -----Original Message-----
> From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On
> Behalf Of Jeff Shanab
> Sent: Saturday, August 16, 2008 7:20 AM
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Need the Tango on a dyno
> 
> Uh, off the line, the controller can put out 2000A and with the motor in
> series, each can see 170V so [email protected] of the controller is 906 Hp
> now of course, There are losses so the numbers sound ok to me. But a
> dyno would be nice
> 
> Another way of calculateing HP is torque * rpm / 5252
> What is the torque of each motor at 2000A?
> Can the motors still accept 2000A at say 500rpm?
> 
> A dyno chart would be very nice to have.
> I was looking at the dyno chart of the crazy horse pinto, This is
> similar with dual 9's and a zilla 2K and was wondering if he has it
> dialed all the way up or is this just it. 314hp
> 
> The peak torque is 1260 ft.lbs or 630 ftlbs/motor I wish we had amps
> and volts to go with these. but assuming the voltage is limiting this
> should be 170V @2000A
> 
> It is hard to estimate,
> 
> torque = k* i^2 where k is .0085 according to UVE's
> 
> .0085*2000*2000 = 34,000 .Uve doesn't mention any units and assumes a
> linear relationship so this number is meaningless
> 
> The extended chart at evparts says 240lbft for 1000A if we multiplied
> that by 2, it would be 480lbft/motor, but crazy horse dyno's higher.
> The issue is the wheel torque is not motor torque. I see a 3.25 rear
> end (and roughly 27" dia tires?) and that means his motor torque is only
> 388/2 or 193 per motor.
> THis indicates he is only pushing 800A thru the motors. I am very
> confused, has he not dialed it up yet or is the zilla 2K a waste here?
> 
> The numbers just don't add up in my mind yet.
> 
> _______________________________________________
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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

I posted these files in the NEDRA Yahoo Groups Files section:
http://sports.groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA/

http://sports.groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA/files/Crazyhorse_Pinto_Dyno_Resul
ts/

Crazyhorse_Pinto_HP_Torque_06AUG08.pdf
Crazyhorse_Pinto_DAQ4_06AUG08.pdf
Crazyhorse_Pinto_Dynutput_06AUG08.pdf

If anyone is so inclined to host them on a more public place, that is fine
with me.

Enjoy
Mike

> -----Original Message-----
> From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On
> Behalf Of Mike Willmon
> Sent: Saturday, August 16, 2008 3:59 PM
> To: 'Electric Vehicle Discussion List'
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Need the Tango on a dyno
> 
> Jeff,
> I limit the battery current to 1500A max because of the batteries. The
> Xe16
> is rated for 750 A and so the two strings total 1500A. No voltage limit
is
> set for Series mode and currently the parallel mode is set for 160V.
We'll
> bump it to 180V tomorrow at the track.
> 
> Torque is torque whether its at the tire surface or at the motor shaft.
Its
> just force times a radius. So torque at the wheels is torque at the
motor.
> 
> I'll try to get the curves with all the voltages and currents overlaid on
> the dyno graph posted here pretty soon.
> 
> Mike
> 


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> matt wrote:
> > Can the commutators on the adc 9s withstand 2000A?
> > I thought they start to pitt after about 1000A.
> Not long; a matter of 10 seconds or so, with a long period to cool off
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Cool. I just put 180 lb/hr injectors in my Honda Accord, and now the
fuel system can produce over 1,150 horsepower.

Sorry, his claim is just dishonest.


Tim

---------
Date: Sat, 16 Aug 2008 09:13:17 -0500
From: "Morgan LaMoore" <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Need the Tango on a dyno
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Message-ID:
<[email protected]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

His actual wording was "the controller can produce over 800 horsepower"

The Zilla specifications list a maximum power of 640kW, which is 858 HP.
You're not going to get that much without an almost perfect battery pack,
though.

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Mike Willmon <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> >I posted these files in the NEDRA Yahoo Groups Files section:
> >http://sports.groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA/
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

It was my understanding that it was the inductive "kick" from the field
collapse when the brushes break contact with each commutator bar that causes
the pitting, rather than the heat?
Or does the heat build up make the commutator bars more prone to pitting?

Again I spose im showing my ignorance, though I am interested.
Im afer a motor specifically with interpoles (such as a kostov 11) for my
conversion so I don't have to worry so much about pitting the commutator
when I crank the motor side current to 2000A.

Matt

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf
Of Lee Hart
Sent: Sunday, 17 August 2008 11:30 AM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Need the Tango on a dyno



> matt wrote:
> > Can the commutators on the adc 9s withstand 2000A?
> > I thought they start to pitt after about 1000A.
> Not long; a matter of 10 seconds or so, with a long period to cool off
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> From: [email protected]
> To: [email protected]
> Date: Sat, 16 Aug 2008 08:18:14 -0700
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Need the Tango on a dyno
> 
> 
>


> Roger Heuckeroth wrote:
> > > Tom,
> >
> > > F=MA and F= Torque at the axle / radius of the axle. So clearly
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Phil Marino wrote:
> >
> >
> > > From: [email protected]
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Mike Willmon wrote:
> 
> > Torque is torque whether its at the tire surface or at the
> > motor shaft. Its just force times a radius. So torque at
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Those are impressive numbers! Thanks for the real life measurement (I've heard the G-tech is pretty accurate).

If you want to explore top speed, bring it out to the Salt Flats this summer!

A caution: Many vehicles will go unstable at those kinds of speeds! Can you find speed rated tires for it?



----- Original Message ----
From: Jorg Brown <[email protected]>
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, August 20, 2008 11:38:08 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Need the Tango on a dyno

... I chose the 19 Hawker option. I borrowed a friend's electronic G-Meter and my Tango got a 1/4 mile time of 12.6 seconds at 95mph. And 0-60 in 5.1 seconds. I imagine I'd do better if I'd gotten the 25-battery option, since there's a higher voltage involved. ...

I haven't had the chance to try out a 150mph top speed, but I'd want to take it to a proper track. ...



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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Jorg,

Thank you for your realworld response. I've had my eye on the Tango
for quite some time now. As you said, it is the price tag that is
holding me back at the moment.

-- 
David D. Nelson

http://evalbum.com/1328

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Looks like the Tango will finally be put on a dyno. The X-Prize competition
requires it. We were concerned that it wouldn't fit on a chassis dyno, but
discovered that both wheels fit on a single roller. they roller is 40" wide
and the both wheels of the Tango fit within 39". We'll just make it. I've
just rejoined the list after a long time off, and won't have much time to
participate, but thought I should search for Tango related posts just for
kicks. I'm anxious to see what happens on the dyno too. I know we have the
torque, but that is meaningless unless we have the torque at higher rpm.
Hopefully the new LiFePO4 cells will keep the voltage high enough to
overcome the back EMS that reduces torque at higher rpm. Torque x RPM
divided by 5252 = HP. HP is all that matters in acceleration. You can get
10s so thousands of ft lbs of torque by gear reduction, the the rpm will be
low and there will be low hp as a result.

BTW:

We have an incredible opportunity before us and could use your help.

Pepsi is offering millions of dollars to fund ideas like the Tango. We have
entered into the $250,000 category. This much money can go a long way and
our plan is to use it to build two demo cars to help sell T600s. The
increase sales should drive down the cost of production as so we can build
lower cost models, which has been our plan from the beginning.

Please take just a moment to help us get this grant by voting for the Tango
now.

Go to: http://www.refresheverything.com/commutercarstango

Please multiply your votes by sending this to as many people as you can and
help us change the world one commuter at a time.

Thank you so much for your time and support for the Tango!

Best wishes,

Rick Woodbury
-- 
View this message in context: http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/Need-the-Tango-on-a-dyno-tp444604p2241423.html
Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

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