# "New" EV: 1973 Saab Sonett Conversion



## miscrms (Sep 25, 2013)

*1973 Saab Sonett Conversion w/Nissan Leaf Drive System*

Status Update 1/12/16:
- Obtained a running/driving salvage 2012 Nissan Leaf
- Completed Leaf teardown, demonstrated system functioning outside the Leaf
http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showthread.php/re-using-complete-leaf-drive-system-151458.html
- Removed outdated 96V DC PbA based system from Sonett
- Sonett teardown to frame nearly complete

Plans:
- Make more accurate measurements of Sonett frame, and Leaf components to finalize placement and fabricate necessary mounts and brackets.
- Initial focus will be to make bare Sonett chassis drivable / functional for continued testing of Leaf Drive System re-use.
- Phase I will likely be similar to Leaf tabletop demo, retaining Sonett brakes, hubs, and steering with modified drive shafts to adapt Leaf transaxle to Sonett hubs. Components from Leaf to include Motor, Inverter, VCM, BCM, DCJB, On-Board Charger and Charge ports, Shift Control, Power On Control, wiring harnesses (inc 12V fuses, relays), liquid cooling system, some display and control instrument / switches.
- Phase II will likely aim to fully enable regenerative braking, may incorporate Leaf braking system (master cylinder, brake controller, ABS controller, calipers, parking brake controller), hubs and wheel speed sensors (preferably in modified Sonett knuckles to avoid suspension changes), possibly adapt steering sensors and electric power steering.
- HVAC and other creature comforts (audio, door locks, Nav, Telemetrics, electric heater) will probably be incorporated throughout phase I and II as practical / convenient.
- Final phase will be to work on restoration / cosmetics once function and fitting of components are complete.

Original Post:
Well, after about 10 years of EV dreaming, I finally took the plunge 

I've always had a soft spot for these odd-ball Saab's, ever since owning one (that I could barely keep on the road) back in the late 90s. When researching platforms for a conversion, I was rather pleased to discover that they seemed to be an excellent candidate. With a curb weight of 1800 lbs, a Cd of 0.31, and a miniscule cross sectional area (22% smaller than 1st Gen Insight), they were fun to drive with the stock ~60 hp engine while averaging 30-35mpg in a day when 10-15mpg was typical. They were also designed as racers, being proven as a great platform for performance enhancements and doing quite well in their SCCA and rally classes. 

I wasn't planning to start my search in earnest for another month or two, but when this example came up for sale locally, I couldn't say no 







It was about the same price that I would have spent on a fair condition runner in need of complete restoration, but had already had a simple DC conversion done in the 90s and a significant amount of work had gone into restoring the frame/floorpans and mechanicals as it passed through the ownership of two different vintage Saab restoration gurus. If nothing else its a great rolling chassis to build on, with a bonus that the old conversion has been maintained and rebuilt well enough to still be used as a commuter in the mean time.

The conversion is definitely a bit of a time capsule from a bygone era  From what I gather it was based on a kit from either EV America and/or Solar Car Corp in FL with a custom adapter / coupler designed by Saab Quantum designer Walter Kern to the original 4sp freewheeling transmission (used clutchless). It uses a 6" GE Series Wound DC motor (looks to be the 11.6HP commutavan motor) with forced air cooling, a Curtis 1221B-7401 controller set for 300A max, and a 96V flooded lead acid pack. Looks like it was originally set up for 16s 6V batteries, but changed over to 8s 12V at some point. Have to start in 1st gear to get it rolling, then 2nd will do just about everything except freeway speeds. Haven't tried that yet 

It seems like its gone through several incarnations, mostly reusing the original components. Original conversion was done '92-93 by Bud Clark of J&B Imports in CA following Walter Kern's design. System was removed and significant restoration of floorpans and mechanicals was done in 2009-10 by Jack Ashcraft in OR. Motor and Controller were rebuilt by subsequent owner in 2013, and funky split 55V chargers were replaced with a Delta-Q unit in 2014. 5/8 batteries are Trojan T1275s from 2014, 3/8 are US 12VXCs from 2009 that are getting pretty weak. Still good enough to drive it 13 miles home on surface streets and come to rest at 12.2-12.3V though (vs. ~12.6 on the Trojans).

I'm planning to get those last 3 old batteries out of there, and add some instrumentation (probably cycle analyst and a modified Celllog 8S) and keep using it for my daily 15 mile RT commute while starting plans for a major update


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## miscrms (Sep 25, 2013)

BTW here is cool old mid-90s news clip of Walter Kern with his personal Electric Sonett, the car this one was built as a twin to.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ih0n468n--0

Rob


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

What a little hottie
more photos !


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## miscrms (Sep 25, 2013)

I'm intrigued by the idea of trying to use the complete drive system out of a wrecked leaf, so that's been my primary area of research so far. I know that some folks have been trying to use individual components, but not sure anyone has tried using the whole system together (VCM, motor, inverter, charger, cooling system, maybe brake control unit, maybe some creature comforts like keyless entry and AC). I'll plan to start another thread on that topic unless someone can point me to a good one already under way 

My motivation for exploring this route is mainly a robust, integrated drive system with decent acceleration and range performance on a budget. Although it will certainly have its own challenges, $5-7k for a wrecked Leaf that yields an 80kW 3 phase motor w/reducer and transaxle, water cooled inverter, 24kWh Li battery with bms, charger, etc seems pretty untouchable performance per $ wise. Even with some probable battery degredation, I would imagine I'd be able to cover my typical 20 mile RT commute with plenty of room to spare.

I've done some preliminary rough CAD modeling to check feasibility, and so far it seems like everything would fit. Here's a drawing of the Sonett's frame with approximate represenations of the motor/reducer/transaxle, inverter, batteries, and radiator.









I've also done some work in the "Excel Dyno" to get a sense of what kind of performance might be possible when moving the Leaf's drive system from its original 3600 lb host into an 1800 lb platform. The values to the far right are the baseline Leaf performance, which seem pretty reasonable, while the third column from the right estimates acceleration characteristics in the Sonett. The assumes you can keep all that torque applied to the road (which the spreadsheet says you can't), and uses motor torque data measured directly at the wheels of a Leaf on a dyno.










Could be fun 

Rob


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## foxr (Apr 16, 2015)

I'm very interested in doing this as well just trying to figure out what car I want to try to use and LOVE convertibles! I'm actually thinking an 1985 Volkswagen cabriolet or a 1974 fiat 124. I'm not certain the drivetrain would fit in the Fiat though. Would need to know the demensions on both from afar :/
Good luck on the project!!!


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## miscrms (Sep 25, 2013)

Well, now I've really done it 

Rob


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## foxr (Apr 16, 2015)

May I ask where you bought that and price? What else are you getting out of that besides the engine(traction motor, inverter, charger); battery, and ECM?


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## miscrms (Sep 25, 2013)

2012, 24k miles from WA State using autobidmaster/copart. Supposedly "run&drive verified", we'll see 

Winning bid was $5300, on no reserve / pure sale. With fees and shipping to Phoenix ends up being just under $7k. 

At the high end of my budget, but as I'm planning to use quite a lot of stuff from the car it seemed to make sense to pass on the ones with more substantial damage and hold out for one that seemed pretty intact. I'm not sure if this one hit at a funny angle or what, but it _looks_ like there is damage to quite a few panels but not much deformation structurally into the engine bay. We'll see what the real story is when it gets here. I had been mostly watching side/rear impact ones, but most of the ones I had seen in the last month or so ended up going for over $7k plus shipping and fees, for 2011s with more miles.

My general plan is to use enough of the Leaf drive system to get it to operate as if its in a Leaf. So far it looks like:

Pretty much for sure: battery w/LBC & contactors, motor, inverter, charger, VCM, BCM, power switch/NATS amp, key, security dongle, charger, electronic shifter, radiator, water pumps, drive shafts (cut down), IPDM, DC/DC Converter

Maybe: Intel Brake Unit (looks necessary to enable regen), AC system (in Phoenix), wheel hubs/knuckles/brake calipers and wheels (still debating), displays and AV-CAN (maybe temporarily, then replace with custom control interface / displays?), brake/throttle pedals and/or sensors, steering sensors and or rack (if needed to get regen working)

BTW I have another thread going in the tech discussion section where I've been tracking my efforts to use the DTC failsafe tables in the factory service manuals to sort out the minimum required set of components to enable full drive / charge functionality.
http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showthread.php/re-using-complete-leaf-drive-system-151458.html

Rob


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## miscrms (Sep 25, 2013)

Looks like I got lucky! Leaf arrived today, had low battery warning and 6 miles range remaining, but started right up and drove off the truck. Small number of minor DTCs, after clearing with LeafSpy no DTCs reappeared. All fluids seem to be holding level (coolant, etc), AC works fine. Printed a temp permit and drove (very slowly) to Nissan dealer 3 miles away, still showing 6 miles range. Tried level 2 charging, started right up at 3kW. Switched to QC, charged to 80% (49-188 GIDs) in about 40 min at 17-18kW. Battery showing 11/12 capacity bars. Drove to work with AC (~10 miles, 92F) with no issues, glides well, brakes straight, no wheel pull or vibrations. Still no DTCs after drive, ~60 mile range still showing and average >5m/kWh for the trip. Pretty jazzed!

Its almost going to be sad to cut this one up. Almost 

Rob


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## foxr (Apr 16, 2015)

Love it! Keep it coming guys.


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## electron bom (Dec 4, 2014)

Excellent project! Question, do you have a dealer license, did you bid on one of the 'open to public' copart auctions, or did you hire a broker?


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## miscrms (Sep 25, 2013)

I ended up using a broker, autobidmaster.com. I was quite happy with the whole experience. They charge a ~$300 broker fee, but then you can search co-part inventory, setup watch lists, save searches, email notifications, make advanced bids, and best of all make real time bids in the live copart auctions. Their live auction interface looks just like coparts, so it seems like a direct feed. That was the main reason I chose to go with them, as bidding live seemed most likely to produce a good result. Phone support was very helpful when I had questions, and they arranged shipping at what seemed like a good price ($785 WA to AZ).

It looks like I may have gotten lucky, but you do have to go into these auctions with open eyes. There are a lot of fees that add on top of your final bid. There are essentially no guarantees what-so-ever on the condition of the car. You get 10 photos, and have to roll the dice and take your best shot. You can pay someone to go inspect it, but they won't allow a code scanner and unless you go pick it up yourself in person you don't even really have any recourse if it arrives significantly different than described / depicted or as it was when inspected. Even a "run and drive" verified car only means that when it arrived on the lot it would start (sometimes with a jump) go into gear and move a few feet under its own power. Then the car will often sit on the lot for at least a few months (while insurance companies and state governments shuffle papers back and forth), during which time its condition can degrade. That said, mine was "run and drive verified" and arrived with the 12V battery still good and the HV battery still showing exactly the same remaining range as when the pictures were taken.

Its also not unusual for easily resellable parts/accessories to walk off somewhere in the process. Charge cords are probably the most likely to be missing on a Leaf, either the original owner keeps it to sell, or it disappears so where along the way. I've heard of a few cases of the NAV sim cards going missing, which is a real pain if you plan to use or resell. In extreme cases I've even heard of more substantial things like hybrid batteries going missing. Keys can end up lost, even if they were originally present, which is also a pain.

Even taking all these risks and extra costs into account, it can still be a really good deal. But you have to be realistic about what you are getting into.

Rob


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## electron bom (Dec 4, 2014)

Wow, thank you so much for sharing your first hand account. I have been eying copart auctions (Leafs mostly) for a while, but I just had too many unanswered questions. Your input is greatly appreciated! Congratulations on your win, it looks like you got a good parts mule


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## 67BGTEV (Nov 1, 2013)

Rob,
Not sure if the Leaf Drive train fits under the hood of Sonett.. Please measure before ripping the Leaf..



miscrms said:


> Looks like I got lucky! Leaf arrived today, had low battery warning and 6 miles range remaining, but started right up and drove off the truck. Small number of minor DTCs, after clearing with LeafSpy no DTCs reappeared. All fluids seem to be holding level (coolant, etc), AC works fine. Printed a temp permit and drove (very slowly) to Nissan dealer 3 miles away, still showing 6 miles range. Tried level 2 charging, started right up at 3kW. Switched to QC, charged to 80% (49-188 GIDs) in about 40 min at 17-18kW. Battery showing 11/12 capacity bars. Drove to work with AC (~10 miles, 92F) with no issues, glides well, brakes straight, no wheel pull or vibrations. Still no DTCs after drive, ~60 mile range still showing and average >5m/kWh for the trip. Pretty jazzed!
> 
> Its almost going to be sad to cut this one up. Almost
> 
> Rob


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## miscrms (Sep 25, 2013)

Yeah, I was worried about that too. That was a big part of the decision to go with the 2011-12 vs. 2013+. The stacked motor / inverter / charger might have just fit, but it would have been very tight. The separate components of the earlier design should make it much more flexible. There is a crude CAD mockup on the first page showing the approximate motor/reduction gear/transaxle, inverter, and battery modules in relation to the front and rear compartments. Looks like it should all go in ok, but I will be refining measurements now that I have both cars. Need to start adding secondary components and look at weight distribution as well.

Since this one seems quite drivable, my plan is to start by doing some experimenting on the system while its still in the Leaf to make sure I understand how it will react to the absence of various components. Hopefully that will line up well with what I've gleaned from the service manuals, but if not I want to know about it before I take it all apart and try to re-assemble in the donor


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## miscrms (Sep 25, 2013)

Not sure where you are located electron_bom, but if you start looking to buy I would also make sure to have a pretty wide search area. I started with a focus on CA, with a mind to keep shipping costs down, but the auctions there seemed very popular (often 1000 or more participants noted on the live auction) and prices seemed high. The auction I won this one at was in WA and only had a few hundred participants, and while shipping was probably $300-500 higher I'd guess the winning bid ($5,300) was easily $2-3k less than a similar car in CA.

Rob


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## miscrms (Sep 25, 2013)

Managed to track down a "parts kit" for the 24 module pack from someone that was breaking down batteries for the modules. Plan is to use these to combine the modules from the smaller packs so that I end with two identical 24 module 1/2 packs. May still be some wiring challenges to sort out, but I will likely have to be making some custom harnesses anyway.










Rob


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## electron bom (Dec 4, 2014)

Thanks for the tips regarding autobidmaster, I'm currently shopping for a busted leaf of my own. I'm on the east coast and the $1700 shipping quote from the Cali auction site has me searching closer to home.

Have you removed the battery enclosure from the vehicle yet? I'm wondering what is entailed in its removal. I'm assuming it will drop out from underneath the vehicle.

Given your last pic, am I correct in understanding that you will utilize the OEM bus bars to connect the cells in series, but you're manufacturing your own BMS leads?


Post more pics please!


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## miscrms (Sep 25, 2013)

electron bom said:


> Thanks for the tips regarding autobidmaster, I'm currently shopping for a busted leaf of my own. I'm on the east coast and the $1700 shipping quote from the Cali auction site has me searching closer to home.


On the east coast you might try looking at the GA auctions. Seems like the state incentives there resulted in a lot of Leafs on the road, which of course means more wrecks.



electron bom said:


> Have you removed the battery enclosure from the vehicle yet? I'm wondering what is entailed in its removal. I'm assuming it will drop out from underneath the vehicle.
> 
> Given your last pic, am I correct in understanding that you will utilize the OEM bus bars to connect the cells in series, but you're manufacturing your own BMS leads?












As you've probably seen, the Leaf battery is divided into a number of sub-packs. The big one across the back is half of the battery, 24 modules. Its this pack that I found extra parts for, so my plan is to disassemble the smaller packs, which will yield 24 more modules, and then connect them back together with the stock bus bars to yield a second 24 module pack. So the goal is to keep the battery looking like stock to the drive system, but have just 2 identical 24 module packs to deal with which should be simpler to integrate into the host vehicle.

The parts kit came with a spare 24 module pack BMS harness, and I'll also have the harness from the smaller packs from my own battery. The connectors appear to be the same between the large pack, and the combined smaller packs, but the pin order/locations look to be different. Hopefully I'll either be able to make the "small pack" harness out of my battery work with the newly assembled larger pack, or re-pin the 24 module harness from the parts kit to match the smaller pack pin out. Either way this will take some careful work to get right to avoid damaging the bms 



electron bom said:


> Post more pics please!


Here is where I'm at currently:









It will be a while until I drop the battery. My plan is to strip down the interior, dash, and front body so that all of the major components are accessible but the car can still be driven. Then I can use this as a platform to test all of the mods required for the transplant before the system is completely disassembled. Some will just be as simple as unplugging various controllers to make sure my assumptions about what components can be omitted are correct, but I'll also plan to remove the battery, rewire the pack and then temporarily install it back into the the leaf interior to test that all out. 

I've started by exposing the rear area as I'm also interested in the possibility of upgrading the battery charger, either to dual stock chargers or perhaps a 6.6kW unit out of the 2013+ models. I've found a potential local source for parts (as well as picked up a busted 2013 charger from a scrap yard for $75) to start experimenting with, though to really go down that path I'll have to pick up a CAN controller and start looking at all that in a lot more detail. Not sure how far down that path I really want to go yet, as my normal commute will only use a fraction of the battery capacity, but having a faster charge option would be nice and might be useful to the 2011/2012 Leaf owners out there if I can make it work.

Rob


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## miscrms (Sep 25, 2013)

BTW, here is one way to get the battery out of the Leaf 










This is from a thread over at ecomodder, where a guy is transplanting the Leaf system into a Gen Honda Insight:
http://ecomodder.com/forum/showthre...f-drivetrain-into-02-honda-insight-30966.html

Rob


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## miscrms (Sep 25, 2013)

To drop the battery, I'm assuming I'll need to get some sort of jack/lift and have the Leaf up on jack stands for clearance.

A few options I've been looking at:









http://www.harborfreight.com/1500-lb-Capacity-ATV-Motorcycle-Lift-60636.html









http://www.harborfreight.com/1000-lbs-Capacity-Hydraulic-Table-Cart-69148.html









http://www.harborfreight.com/800-lb-low-lift-transmission-jack-60234.html

Rob


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## electron bom (Dec 4, 2014)

I just found this interesting video.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=_A1uisA06cI


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## miscrms (Sep 25, 2013)

Nice, good find!


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## miscrms (Sep 25, 2013)

Slow progress, starting to disassemble the dash and center console to expose the connections to all the various controllers. Decided to play it safe and follow the manuals instructions to disconnect all the of the airbag / per-tensioner cable connectors at the far end before removing the airbag controller in the center, which has slowed me down quite a bit. Most are a PITA to get to. The first instruction for the passenger side airbag is "remove dash" 

Plan is to get everything stripped down but still drivable. Then (maybe by this weekend...) drop the battery, rewire the pack, and re-install temporarily in the interior to test. Then start unplugging all the sensors/buttons/controllers that I'm not planning to use to make sure it still runs/drives as expected.

Then I can start gutting out both cars 

Rob


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## miscrms (Sep 25, 2013)

That's more like it 










Was able to run my first "partially disassembled" test run today. With the Airbags and Airbag controller, steering wheel switches, AV Control Unit, AV Cluster switches and combination meter / upper meter all removed I was still able to start up, shift between all the gears, drive with full power and regen (monitored with LeafSpy) and charge. Still have more stuff to disconnect, but so far so good!

I may actually end up using some of this stuff, but am trying to see just how far you can go in stripping the Leaf system down and still having full drive / regen / charge functionality. Will post more details on DTCs etc in the reusing the Leaf system thread: http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showthread.php/re-using-complete-leaf-drive-system-151458.html

Rob


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## The Toecutter (May 30, 2010)

The Sonnet I and II are both a fine choice for EV conversion. They have a CdA similar to a 1st gen Insight, and make an even lighter "glider" than the 1st gen Insight by a few hundred lbs. Their low frontal area gives them a noticeable advantage over other light-weight front-wheel drive cars such as the Honda CRX or Geo Metro that are commonly converted.

My biggest gripes with the Sonnets are their rarity and their use of front wheel drive, but had I come across one when I was searching for a donor chassis, I'd have grabbed it at the right price. It's a more efficient choice than my GT6, making it an ideal candidate for a "long range" conversion.

I remember browsing the EV Tradin' Post and seeing a similar conversion for sale for a similar price, but I already had a partially-completed conversion at that point.

I suspect you will get by with ~150 Wh/mile at 60 mph on flat ground with minimal wind, if you keep a very light foot. This is with no aeromods, and tires with a Crr of 0.009.

With aeromods and lots of techniques paid towards efficiency, you could reduce that to a value approaching 100 Wh/mile. The Sonnet has such a delightfully-low frontal area, which pays dividends towards reduced power consumption from air-drag, and it's drag coefficient was 20 years ahead of its time when compared to the "average" new car sold for that time.

A 24 kWh pack will open the doors to EV conversions(such as yours) getting range and straight-line performance competing with Tesla's base Model S, and well exceeding the Leaf by all performance measures from which the conversions' components were derived.

The right chassis, with good aero and low weight, is key. Less is more.

A Leaf drivetrain is of similar performance to an AC Propulsion AC100 drivetrain when run at its maximum recommended operating voltage/current. In a light-weight car, it will go like hell... Alan Cocconi's CRX loaded with roughly 1300 lbs of lead could still do 0-60 mph in roughly 7 seconds with that AC100... Your car will have a similar amount of power to, and the greater half of 1000 pounds less weight, and nearly double the usable kWh available, when compared to Cocconi's CRX.

I just hope you can do enough suspension adjustments to get the traction you will need, or alternatively, don't ever break your CV-joints. Even if you have to limit the torque to stock ICE level due to wasted traction and/or broken components(Saabs of this vintage are typically very solidly built), it will still be a very fast performer. I don't think you'll need to limit it though...

...in which case you may have a real monster to contend with.


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## miscrms (Sep 25, 2013)

Thanks TC, it should be an interesting combination 

I'm hoping to keep finished weight under 2000 lbs, but we'll see how it goes. The guy who worked on the car in ~2009 said it was weighed at ~1300 lbs empty (no electric or ICE components). I'm guessing with its current 96V lead acid system its about 2200-2330 lbs. I picked up 4 550lb capacity scales off Amazon ($30 ea), so once I start tearing it down I should see where we stand.

The steering/brakes/suspension/drive shafts are definitely where I have the most uncertainty. My original plan was to just to get some custom drive shafts built up, and keep everything else stock. Possibly with some custom springs and adjustable dampers. Things are pretty up in the air on this front currently.

Knuckles / Hubs / Spring / Dampers: The stock saab setup is dual A-arm, with steering arm and calipers behind the axles. The Leaf is MacPherson struts with steering arm behind, caliper in front. Both use twisted beam rear axle.

Brakes: It looks like at a minimum the Leaf MC unit has to be brought over to enable regen. Using the Leaf pedal box would probably simplify things as well in terms of the throttle / brake position sensors. Stock saab are single piston floating Lockheed calipers in front, drums in back. Drums are hard to find, rotors only solid are avail, standard pads and shoes still avail. Leaf has dual piston floating calipers on all 4 wheels, rears seem to be common mounting with mid-2000s 350z/G35. Fronts are common with Altima I believe. Fair amount of performance rotors / pads seem to be avail.

Steering: Saab manual rack and pinion, 15.5:1, 2.7 turns L2L. Leaf electric power assist 15.7:1, 3.3 turns L2L. Steering sensor may be needed to get regen.

Wheels/Tires: Saab has oddball 5x170mm bolt pattern, very limited wheel options. Stock wheels are narrow (5") limiting tire options, stock were 155R15. Going to Leaf hubs would potentially open up a lot more wheel / tire options.

I don't know quite where to head with all that. One option might be to get the stock Sonett knuckles machined to accept the Leaf hubs, and just get the Leaf drive shafts shortened. Then perhaps get some custom brackets made to upgrade calipers (maybe just to the Leaf calipers). Same basic idea on rear axle I guess.

I'd also thought about trying to get the Leaf knuckles modified to match up to the Sonett lower A-arm and steering arm, but that sounds tricky....

Any thoughts in this realm appreciated, definitely not my area of expertise 

Rob


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## miscrms (Sep 25, 2013)

Well, its up in the air  










I've got 24" of clearance from the rocker panels to the floor, so hopefully the battery will clear underneath. I ended up buying the harbor freight 1000lb hydraulic lift cart (~$180 after sale price + coupon), which is ~11" compressed. The battery info I've seen is 10.4", so in theory I should have an inch or two to spare 

Hopefully will start dropping the battery tonight!

Rob


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## miscrms (Sep 25, 2013)

Battery is out!





































No major issues. HF hydraulic cart worked well, with one issue. Normally the handle folds down for storage, I modified it so it would fold out so I could position the table right in the center of the battery. Apparently having the handle not in its vertical position causes issues with the cable release handle, so I wasn't initially able to pump the table up with the handle reclined. Messing around with the cable position I was finally able to get it to go, never had any issues having it hold steady under load, just finicky to get it to pump up with the handle down. 

The additional jack in the first pic was just to support the front of the battery as I released the bolts in case I misjudged the center of gravity. The cart was positioned about 3-4" to the rear from true center to account for the greater weight in the back. That seems to work out fine, there was no pressure on the jack as I dropped the battery. Used the engine hoist to lift it off the cart and slide a work table in under, so I'm ready to crack the case and start re-wiring!

Rob


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## electron bom (Dec 4, 2014)

Great work and thanks for sharing the pics


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## londubh (May 13, 2015)

I'm looking forward to seeing what you do with the Brakes/Wheels situation. I'm working on my own 73 Sonett conversion (still in the planning stages, haven't bit the bullet on conversion materials yet). 

I'm trying to keep as much stock as possible (especially dem soccer-balls), but if you find a viable upgrade to the brakes, I'd be very interested to hear it.

Also, if you go away from the stock wheels, I might be interested in the soccer-balls...


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## miscrms (Sep 25, 2013)

Will do. I personally like the soccer ball wheels, but I just don't see how I can get enough rubber on the road to handle 200+ ft lbs of torque with that skinny a wheel. I'm just as interested as you are to see how that part works itself out 

Rob


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## tylerwatts (Feb 9, 2012)

Rob
Bare in mind that the torque from an ev is delivered smoothly and you can get away with a narrower tyre given the abilities of modern tyres. I'd suggest you plan to keep the stock wheels and only try changing them if you have a problem once the car is finished and running. 

Sorry londubh


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## miscrms (Sep 25, 2013)

Good point tw. The stock engine in these cars was only putting out 65hp / 85 ftlb though, so this is a pretty massive increase. Substantial upgrades were fairly commonly done for SCCA and autocross, but wider wheels and tires were often discussed as one of the first and most significant handling improvements.

The problem is I'm going to have to make a fundamental choice here pretty soon. When I get the drive shafts built I'm going to have to pick between the Saab and Nissan hub splines. If I stick with Saab there are almost no alternate wheel choices given the oddball 5x170 bolt pattern. Makes brake rotor choices very limited too. Of course changing to the Nissan hubs simplifies the drive shaft to really just a shortening exercise, but introduces lots of other potential complications in terms of fitting. Seems like thats probably the way to go though.

Its hard to describe just how tall and skinny the stock 155SR15 tires are by modern standards  

Here's a set on an MG:









The Michelin XZX's on my Sonett are in nice shape, but date coded 1993 so I'll definately have go tire shopping. Its actually getting a bit tricky to find modern tires that will fit on the narrow 4.5" wheels and clear the fiberglass fenders. There are a few options that work, the best choice seems to be 175/65R15 as discussed in this blog:
http://jlw97.fatcow.com/saabstories/?p=89

Here's an example of a Sonett setup for autocross (engine upgraded to ~150hp) with hubs changed to allow 6.5"x15" minilights with 205/50 tires squeezed in under stock fenders. Brakes are upgraded to 4 piston Wilwood Dynalite calipers using custom brackets. Custom springs are about 1" lower than stock.









Shock options are getting hard to find too, seems like best option used to be Koni gas over adjustables but at this point I think only KYB gas are really available.

At some point I probably need to just bite the bullet and call up Jack Lawrence at Motorsport Services and see what he recommends and can still get. I can already hear my wallet screaming though 

Here's a picture of Jack's Sonett back in the day 









Rob


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## miscrms (Sep 25, 2013)

I've always loved this shot of a Sonett being run "naked" to shed a few more pounds for the last run of the day


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## londubh (May 13, 2015)

Here I go giving you ideas that may take things off the market for me... but it looks like 99 wheels are 15x5 with a 4x114mm bolt pattern. That means if you could go to that sort of hub/brake setup, you could have one set of wheels for when you're opening it up, and have a set of Soccer balls from a 99 for more economic cruising?


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

Re - Tire width

Modern cars have wide tires for the looks - not performance
One of the car mags did some testing on different size tires on a VW Golf GTI way back when and found the best lap times were with 165 tires - wider tires were slower

Also the wider the tires the more critical the suspension
Old Aston Martin's used Crossply tires - upgrading them to Radials was a NO NO as the suspension angles meant you got less grip 

Overall I would be surprised if the wider tires were actually faster
Tire compound - that is much more important


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## miscrms (Sep 25, 2013)

Point taken, Duncan!

I had seen this a while back, and while they did note an improvement from 1/2" wider wheel for the same tire size, the biggest difference in cornering grip certainly seemed to be from compound differences.

http://www.caranddriver.com/feature...leaf-getting-an-ev-to-grip-like-a-911-feature

That said, as you indicated I'm assuming much of this is suspension geometry dependent. For the case of the Sonett's suspension, at least anecdotally from past autocross / SCCA driver reports, it seems like it responds well to a wider wheel/tire. This was generally noted to have more impact on cornering flatness / roll than adding a front anti-sway bar. 

This is far from my area of expertise, so I do appreciate the comments very much!

Rob


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

Those tests were on a skid pan
On an actual track I would not expect to get as much benefit 

With the old taller narrower tires the tire itself would move more - which is probably why the autocross drivers reported an improvement

I have built my car for this type of event - but I'm not taking it very seriously!
My aims were
Low center of gravity
- most important - 
and if you are electrifying you can get a seriously low center of mass

Tires to be "square" on the road at 1/2G cornering, 1/4G acceleration
(you can't get them square all of the time)

Springs to give a natural frequency of about 100cpm

With the lower C of G I find that I don't need the anti roll bars (anti sway) at all but the Subaru suspension I'm using has the mountings for them front and back so I may use something later

Several decades ago I had a mini with a 2 litre twin cam in the front 
On that car I found that a single sprint on concrete would eat my front tires so
I used second hand track tires (slicks) - much cheaper! lasted longer! and lots more grip

Track tires
First owner uses for one event - maximum performance
Second owner uses for one season
Third owner (me) gets them for $10 each and uses until the canvas shows

Use your nice wheels/tires on the road and get another set of cheap wheels with slicks for the track

This does depend on class entered - because the mini had the "wrong" engine they put me in the unlimited class so tires were open slather


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## miscrms (Sep 25, 2013)

Battery teardown is progressing slowly. Taking the time to label all the connections so that I'll have a better chance of getting it all back together correctly  Already found several inconsistencies with the service manual, but think I'm getting a handle on it. It did help once I figured out that there are two battery types (A older, and B newer as identified by the disconnect plug type) but also types 1 (older no warmer), 2 (older with warmer), 3 (newer no warmer) and 4 (newer with warmer). I have a type A/2, but there is only one drawing of the battery internal schematic in the manual which may be a type A/1. In addition to not showing any of the battery warmer wiring, the drawing shows the HV current sensor in the Bat Junction Box on the battery negative lead, while mine appears to be on the battery positive lead as verified with a multimeter. Once I figured that out everything made more sense, as I had been using the sensor location to define bat +/-.

Rob


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## miscrms (Sep 25, 2013)

Had to travel for work last week, but back at it again. Finished preliminary rewire of front left/right packs into clone of rear pack. Turns out I'm missing some of the spacers needed to fully assemble, but had enough parts to wire it up temporarily to figure out how to do the bms wiring. What I ended up doing was labeling each BMS terminal connector with the cell # before dissembling the left/right front packs. Then took them apart, and reassembled the cells into the correct +/-/+/- order for the rear pack bus bars. Then I snapped the bms terminal connectors onto the new locations based on cell number. Its a bit of a stretch at the plug end, and I still have to figure out how to manage the wiring and hookup at the higher level. But, this should allow me to use the existing right/left front pack BMS looms completely intact, which means they are already pinned out correctly at the connectors to plug right back into the bms harness. Not having to do any cutting/splicing on this harness is a big plus given the shear number of wires involved, and the risk of damaging the bms if there are any mixups. I was able to test the cell voltages at the bms harness connectors LB7/8 and everything looks good, so I'll still be a little nervous when it comes time to hook it back up but it should be good to go for a test back in the Leaf soon. I don't want to have any significant charge/discharge without the spacers properly in place to keep the pack in compression, but I think I should be good for a powerup test soonish. Then I just have to find/make the missing spacers :/

Rob


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## miscrms (Sep 25, 2013)

Ok, so reading a little more, it seems like the Leaf modules are not compressed in the pack. If anything the spacers keep a little gap between "cans" which may help with ventilation.

Rob


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## miscrms (Sep 25, 2013)

Back up on jack stands, seats out, floor covering coming out next. Need to cut a hole on the passenger footwell to pass the HV connector into the passenger compartment so I can temporarily reconnect and test the rewired battery.


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## jwiger (Oct 18, 2014)

Great work!


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## 67BGTEV (Nov 1, 2013)

Thanks for refreshing my memory


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## miscrms (Sep 25, 2013)

Floor is out, ready to start cutting


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## londubh (May 13, 2015)

For the record, I absolutely _love _how well you're documenting this. When I get around to mine, I'm going to be doing similar.


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## miscrms (Sep 25, 2013)

Coming along, should get the Leaf back on the road for testing this weekend if all goes well. 

Hole cut in passenger footwell to allow HV connector to pass inside and connect to battery contactor box, front seat and shifter / ESC controller, parking brake control reinstalled.










Getting the two 200+ lb packs back inside the car was a lot more challenging than I had figured. I will likely remove the doors and clear out more space in the garage when removing so I can get get clearer access with the shop crane. I guess I can always cut the roof off too if I have to 










The newly assembled pack without spacers and side brackets is also a lot less rigid than I would have guessed. I'm planning to add spacers, and have figured out that I can cut the end tabs off the left/right sub-pack top plates to make up the spacers I'm missing. Hopefully that will be enough to increase rigidity. Adding the side rails will be tricky without the special spacers that include the mounting bolt ears.

Rob


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## miscrms (Sep 25, 2013)

Also I won't really be able to re-use the rigid bus bars that made up about half of the internal HV connections, but fortunately I had some old lengths of 0000 gauge wire with lugs already crimped on lying around that I had rescued from a scrap yard years ago. Overkill, but will do for now 

Rob


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## miscrms (Sep 25, 2013)

Well, looks like I managed not break anything! 










Everything powered back up fine, no new DTCs, went to D/R as normal, charge initiated as usual.

Rob


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## jwiger (Oct 18, 2014)

I love it when a science experiment comes together! So let me get this straight, you could possibly (save for the BMS trouble) put another Leaf pack back in the stock location and have a double range Leaf now.... things that make you say Hmmm.


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## 67BGTEV (Nov 1, 2013)

Wow Rob, you have done a fantastic job and I likes the level of labeling you have done.


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## miscrms (Sep 25, 2013)

Thanks 67BGTEV, I'm probably being overly paranoid, but once I pull everything out of the Leaf I want to make sure I know how to hook it back up  In general I'm pretty impressed with the Leaf wiring harness though, they really seem to have gone to pretty great lengths to minimize the risk of that by using unique connectors at almost every junction I've encountered so far. After I've done some more testing of disconnecting various controllers/systems in the Leaf, I think my next task will be to try and reproduce something like your pegboard demo 

jwiger, I think its very possible. As you say the challenge would be the BMS, though if people have gotten the BMS to work with the battery outside a Leaf it could be possible. You'd have to isolate the second BMS on a separate CAN bus with a controller programmed to feed it the right info, and combine the appropriate output messages of the two LBCs to preserve the safety / fault systems. Another approach would be to wire the batteries in parallel on a module by module basis in which case the BMS should continue to work as intended, now its just monitoring 4 cells in parallel per tap instead of 2 as it does normally. The unknown is how exactly the LBC/BMS would respond to the increased capacity, but given that it already appears to use a dynamic estimation of total capacity it seems like it should "learn" over time that the capacity is increased and allow more range. With 2x the capacity its possible that some of its calculations could overflow the number of bits available to track capacity, someone would really have to try it to find out. If that's an issue, this could also be done with 1/2 a battery to increase capacity by 50% by using each of the four cells per module independently but that would require opening up the modules and more significant rewiring.

Rob


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## dedlast (Aug 17, 2013)

Rob,
I'm curious where you got your shop manual. I picked up a 2015 "Run and Drive" from Coparts in Portland. It does run and I can drive it but it's kind of like a clown car - the right front tire is definitely out of round. I would like to have as much info as I can when I start to cannibalize parts for my conversion.

Thanks,
Bill


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## miscrms (Sep 25, 2013)

Hey Bill, congrats on your Leaf! I've been using a copy from the Nico Club:

http://www.nicoclub.com/archives/nissan-leaf-factory-service-manuals.html

Rob


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## dedlast (Aug 17, 2013)

After asking the question, I did some poking around on the 'net (via Google) and ran across the Nico forum and a couple other places. It looks like the '15 manual isn't available yet. I'll probably have to settle for the '14 and hope for the best.

Thanks for being a trailblazer.

Bill


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## miscrms (Sep 25, 2013)

Thanks Bill, best of luck!


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## miscrms (Sep 25, 2013)

BTW, here is a video I shot last night documenting the state of the Leaf disassembly and showing the location of the major components in the Leaf. Planning to shoot another similar video once I have everything out, hopefully in the next week or two.

https://youtu.be/8OBHiTLkANc

Rob


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## miscrms (Sep 25, 2013)

dedlast said:


> After asking the question, I did some poking around on the 'net (via Google) and ran across the Nico forum and a couple other places. It looks like the '15 manual isn't available yet. I'll probably have to settle for the '14 and hope for the best.
> 
> Thanks for being a trailblazer.
> 
> Bill


BTW my understanding is there is a site where you can download the service manual directly from Nissan for $20. Not sure if they have the 2015 up yet though. The 2014 is probably going to really close though.

Rob


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## miscrms (Sep 25, 2013)

FYI I've documented two new findings in the "re-using complete leaf system" thread:
http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showpost.php?p=635905&postcount=24

I've disabled both the ABS controller and the EPS (power steering) controller with no apparent issues aside from DTCs and the loss of the associated functions. Vehicle still appears to run and drive fine without those controllers connected.

Rob


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## miscrms (Sep 25, 2013)

Leaf is at the Nissan dealer getting the HVAC evacuated today so I can proceed with the final disassemble. Got a few puzzled looks, but they have been helpful so far. Pitched it as a technology demonstration to show people how cool EVs are, which they seemed to get on board with 

Still waiting to see what happens the first time I end up there with the Sonett for something that requires a Consult readout 

Rob


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## jwiger (Oct 18, 2014)

Haha, wish I could have been there!


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## miscrms (Sep 25, 2013)

Slow going, but making progress. Most of the cooling system is out, as well as the inverter. Plan is to get the inverter support member, PFC, and DCJB out next, then lift the motor.


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## miscrms (Sep 25, 2013)

Removed the PFC Heater, inverter support member, DCJB, and both axle half-shafts, getting ready to pull the motor!



















Rob


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## dedlast (Aug 17, 2013)

Wow. That looks really different than the '15 version. For one thing, the motors look completely different. I still have a few things to check out before I can tear it down but I'll put some pictures up when I do. 

Bill


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## miscrms (Sep 25, 2013)

dedlast said:


> Wow. That looks really different than the '15 version. For one thing, the motors look completely different. I still have a few things to check out before I can tear it down but I'll put some pictures up when I do.
> 
> Bill


Yup, there was a major redesign for the 2013 model year. The biggest difference is the "motor stack" in the 2013+ models that integrates the motor/gearbox, inverter, dc junction box and charger all into one stacked unit with shared cooling and direct HV connections. In general this appears to be a more compact, lighter, simpler solution than the earlier design. In my case I went for the 2011/12 design intentionally as the 2013+ stack is to tall to fit in the long low nose of the Sonett. The individual component design of the 2011/12 should allow for more flexibility in placement which should help me stretch things out and keep the weight low which should lend itself better to a 2 seat sports car type platform.

Rob


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## miscrms (Sep 25, 2013)

Motor is out! Generally been having a tricky time getting all the coolant out of things. The service manual draining procedure only has your drain at the radiator. Even after pulling the drain plugs on the motor, there still seems to be coolant ending up everywhere each time I break a new connection or remove another component. And of course the drain pan never seems to be in the right place  Also probably should have drained the gearbox oil, lost quite a bit of that out the transaxle holes each time the "tail" would dip down. 

Messes aside, its a great feeling to finally have it out! Still have quite a bit of work to do to remove the remainder of the wiring harness and AC components, but this is a big step to be sure.





































Rob


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## dedlast (Aug 17, 2013)

miscrms said:


> The individual component design of the 2011/12 should allow for more flexibility in placement which should help me stretch things out and keep the weight low which should lend itself better to a 2 seat sports car type platform.
> 
> Rob


Great to see that you have the removal step taken care of. I have been thinking that I will want to stretch out the components, as well. I'm fairly confident that I can bolt cables onto the major conductors without to much trouble. There is a video on youtube of a guy from england taking the stack apart and that is helping with that thought. Anyway, my daily driver is getting more and more annoying and worrisome so I'm going to clear the garage this weekend and Get Busy. 

Bill


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## miscrms (Sep 25, 2013)

Slow going, but removed the battery and charger from the cabin, and got the main dash wiring harness and all associated components (VCM, BCM, etc) out this weekend. Also got the frontend put back together far enough to get the front wheels back on the ground in anticipation of rolling the Leaf out of the garage soon to make way for the Sonett!

Getting the HVAC box out of the dash is probably the next adventure. Hoping I can make do with just loosening the steering column support member and moving it aside rather than completely removing the steering column as the manual calls for.

Rob


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## bigmouse (Sep 28, 2008)

miscrms said:


> Motor is out! Generally been having a tricky time getting all the coolant out of things. The service manual draining procedure only has your drain at the radiator. Even after pulling the drain plugs on the motor, there still seems to be coolant ending up everywhere each time I break a new connection or remove another component.


A wet/dry vac works wonders for removing coolant from systems like this. I used one to suck all the coolant out of my Chevy Volt batteries before removing the modules. Last thing I wanted when playing with a battery is a bunch of slippery coolant on the floor.

Keep up the good work! Really enjoying watching this.


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## miscrms (Sep 25, 2013)

Thanks, that's a great idea!


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## miscrms (Sep 25, 2013)

One of the factors that's made this dissasembly more challenging is the fact that I need to be able to roll the Leaf out of the garage and into the side yard once I've gotten most of what I need out of it. A certain amount of dissassembly and reassembly of the front end was unavoidable to get the drive shafts out to free up the motor, but I've been trying not to have to disassemble the steering and brakes any more than necessary. It complicated things, but in the end I was able to remove the HVAC assembly and interior firewall harness with the steering column support member disconnected and lowered but the steering column itself still connected. Once everything was out I could just rehang the member and still have the steering functional. The tougher challenge was getting the engine room half of the firewall harness extricated from the numerous rigid brake lines that interfere with it. Particularly as the passenger side fuse box and IPDM box don't seem to be separable from the harness. Eventually I had to disconnect the outgoing brake lines from the ABS unit to squeeze the harness through behind them (still challenging). The ABS unit bracket also had to be removed with the unit itself left in place and connected. This resulted in some spillage of brake fluid, but I was able to reconnect the lines and top up without having to bleed the system.

All that remains is to remove the rest of of the interior harness connected to the doors, seats and rear and the Leaf will be rolling out to make room for the table top demo. Then the Sonett will be rolling in to have it's 96V DC / lead acid system removed, and then the real fun of fitting the Leaf system into it can begin!

Rob


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## miscrms (Sep 25, 2013)

Here's a higher res picture of the engine bay and interior before this step. All of the wiring visible in the ext shot on both sides and across the firewall (except the orange HV cable) and the two large fuse boxes (one on each side) are all part of the same harness. As is the BCM/VCM wiring running behind the HVAC unit along the firewall (visible in the first pic in the post above), to the brake and accelerator pedals, and the white connectors in the drivers side footwell, all of which had to be pushed through an opening in the firewall just to the drivers side of the master cylinder. You can see in this pic the 4 places where the brake lines out of the ABS unit trap this harness against the firewall, one on each the passenger and driver side going to the front wheel, and the two rear lines running down through the middle and aft.


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## Moltenmetal (Mar 20, 2014)

Wow- remarkable progress- very smart work, and a lot of it!


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## arddea (Jan 23, 2010)

Very cool post. (Found this through the leaf forum) I haven’t been on this forum since being BFoNT by <redacted> a few years ago.

Are you planning sell out parts?

Quick question is the rear hatch aluminum or steel on your 2012? And if you plan on selling the tail (upper bar) light I’m in need of one. Mines cracked and breeding mosquitoes. I’ve read all the doors are supposed to be aluminum but my 2012 rear hatch is steel. 

Redaction note: Not sure If I’m allowed to name the SOB.


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## miscrms (Sep 25, 2013)

Sorry, I got a little distracted after last week's surplus auction at the local University 










At least now I'll have some tunes to listen to once I've cleared out enough space to get back to work 

Rob


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## Moltenmetal (Mar 20, 2014)

Oh man, if I ever did that, my wife would kill me...! Wicked!


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## jwiger (Oct 18, 2014)

Nice horns dude!!!


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## miscrms (Sep 25, 2013)

Finally got the garage cleared out and getting back to work. Have most of the hookup work done for my tabletop test of the entire drive/control system, just need to get all the grounding sorted out. Hope to have the demo running and shoot some video of it by Thanksgiving weekend. Then the real fun begins of bringing in the host, stripping it down, and figuring out where to put all this stuff 

Rob


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## miscrms (Sep 25, 2013)

Posted several videos detailing progress of tearing down the Leaf and re-assembling the major components to test operation outside the vehicle:

From June:





Recent progress:





Similar, but now with charging working and more minimal set of components:





Should be ready to start stripping the Sonnet down soon!

Rob


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## miscrms (Sep 25, 2013)

Finally done with my experiments on the Leaf system, and got the garage cleaned out again. The Sonett has moved in, I vacuumed out all the accumulated leaves and junk, and the lead acid batteries have been removed. Once my back recovers I'm going to start removing the old 96V DC drive system and transmission. 

Before tearing down the car itself I want to get the weight at each wheel complete but "empty" so I can start planning how to distribute the weight of the new components.










Rob


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## miscrms (Sep 25, 2013)

For weighing components and the vehicle itself, I purchased 4 of these cheap 550lb capacity bathroom scales from Amazon. Will be interesting to see how it works out. Not as convenient as a real vehicle scale system, but hard to beat for <$100. I did have 1/4 that was DOA, luckily the seller sent a replacement no questions asked even though the Amazon 30 day return period had expired before I got around to checking them.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B004EFA6G0

The biggest pain is they "self tare" at power on (which is generally handy). But that means you have to lift the weight, power on, then drop the weight on before they go back to sleep. Shouldn't be too bad doing one axle at a time hopefully.

Fingers crossed I come out close enough to target weight (1800-2000 lbs) and evenly split enough to stay within 550lb at any one wheel 

Rob


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## miscrms (Sep 25, 2013)

Making progress. Starting to feel like the destroyer of EVs though 



















Rob


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## jwiger (Oct 18, 2014)

Ha! I don't see a single gromet around the HV wires. It blows my mind how people drops big chunks of change into a car and skip the cheap insurance. 

Do the headlights still pop-up? That looks like a pretty heavy drive shaft between them.


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## miscrms (Sep 25, 2013)

They do, but they are human powered  There's a handle under the dash with a linkage to manually pop them out. This is all original, but the mounting of them is not quite stock though. Originally they were mounted to the front body shell. One of the previous owners did a front tilt conversion on it (similar to how the 60's Sonett II were) and moved the headlight mounts to the frame to avoid having to disconnect the linkage every time you wanted to tilt the nose. Very handy for access, but a bit kludgy. Eventually going to see if I can get it working smoother.

He also did a bunch of work cleaning up the frame and mechanicals, as well as some added frame bracing used for racing. Probably overkill with the ~10kW motor in there now, but probably a good thing now that I'm going to 80kW 

This was all done when Jack Ashcraft owned the car, who is something of a Vintage Saab guru. Kind of a fun history to the car, between it passing through his hands, and having been originally converted by Bud Clark (another Vintage Saab legend) in Socal in the early 90s with the help of Walter Kern who designed the Quantum Racers based on Saab drivetrains.

Walter Kern:
https://www.facebook.com/albanysaabshop/posts/397291543705799
Saab Quantum:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saab_Quantum
Jack Ashcraft:
http://www.subrew.com/jackashcraft/
Bud Clark:
http://www.caranddriver.com/features/ancient-grease-cool-saabs-stay-alive-in-california-feature


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## londubh (May 13, 2015)

Woah, I knew Ashcraft had that one earlier, but that's a bit of a pedigree, isn't it?


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## jwiger (Oct 18, 2014)

Wow, very cool!

No pressure though, right? Haha.


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## miscrms (Sep 25, 2013)

Exactly


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## miscrms (Sep 25, 2013)

They must have heard you, jwiger


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## miscrms (Sep 25, 2013)

Motor and transmission are finally out!




























Rob


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## dedlast (Aug 17, 2013)

That is such a little, tiny motor!


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## 67BGTEV (Nov 1, 2013)

That's probably as big as the ac35, which is powerful for these small cars. 

Sent from my SM-N900T using Tapatalk


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## 67BGTEV (Nov 1, 2013)

Rob, I sent a message regarding 6.6kw charging. 

Sent from my SM-N900T using Tapatalk


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## miscrms (Sep 25, 2013)

Yup, its a tiddler! Would get the car up to highway speeds in 3rd, but needed 1st gear to get moving. The name plate is painted over, but from the receipts I have its a GE 5BC49JB802A 6" 11.6HP fork lift motor with a forced air blower. The only real reference I can find to these is that they were the motor used by CitiCar in the Comuta-Van in the late 70s - early 80s. It was purchased as part of a kit from Solar Car Corp in 1992, my guess is they were surplus motors after CitiCar stopped production. It was rebuilt by Luna Industries in 2013.

From the stack of receipts and documents that came with the car, here is the timeline I've come up with for the history of the car:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1I6PpTdNtyXV0GMApweLxL6gWz6raIGcYb3eW8z-Dv9U/edit?usp=sharing

Rob


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## miscrms (Sep 25, 2013)

Interesting too, the mount / coupler had a drive pulley to spin a belt driven alternator. The belt is "parked" off the pulley and the alt is long gone.


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## miscrms (Sep 25, 2013)

My scale system seemed to work out pretty well  Very happy I didn't shell out $1000 for a real vehicle scale system. Not that it was really an option 










All four wheels are up on scales to keep things level, then I weighted one axle as a time by jacking it up, turning on the scales and setting it back down. I ran three trials on each, and the biggest variation in any one measurement was 4 lbs, which seemed pretty decent.

The average weights for each wheel are:
Rear Dr: 240.4 lbs
Rear Pass: 259.6 lbs
Rear Axle: 500 lbs

Front Dr: 311.1 lbs
Front Pass: 290.5 lbs
Front Axle: 601.6

Total: 1101.6 lbs

Not bad. This is with nearly all of the DC system removed, except the charge port and wiring, and one HV cable front to back that is stuck until I remove the interior. The old gauges and dash wiring are still there too, half of which you can see dangling over the fender. I currently have 937lbs of Leaf components on the chart, plus there will likely be some mounting and bracket weights, so if I want to hit my 1800-2000 lb target a little shaving will be needed. Glad to see the nose is naturally a bit heavier too, as I was starting to get a little worried about keeping the front/rear in balance with all 460lbs of battery going in the back.

Still, not a bad place to be starting from!

Rob


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## miscrms (Sep 25, 2013)

Busy with the family over the holidays, so not much to report. Finally got the windows up on the Leaf (would have been a lot easier before removing the wiring harnesses...) so I can now use the cabin as a storage shed for all the bits I'm not using. This gives me room to start tearing down the Sonett in earnest.

The front body shell has been removed, and the windshield is out. Its funny, as an EE working around the 80kW power system hasn't really phased me, but removing my first windshield was quite nerve-wracking  

Rob


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## miscrms (Sep 25, 2013)

Getting there, slowly. All the glass is out, doors removed, about half way through drilling out the rivets that hold the body to the frame. Hopefully have the body off by this weekend, then the component fitting tetris can begin.


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## miscrms (Sep 25, 2013)

Making progress! The body is finally separated from the frame. Just need to pull the dash, seats and last bits of interior.



















Getting the body off was a bit painful (lots of bloody knuckles involved), but I'm really happy with how easy it should be to work on fitting the new components now! Plus I'll confess I'm more than a little excited to get to drive it around in its "chopped" state for testing. May need to invest in some goggles...

Rob


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## samwichse (Jan 28, 2012)

*Re: 1973 Saab Sonett Conversion w/Nissan Leaf Drive System*

Do it! It looks like a "future" dune buggy from a 1980's sci-fi movie without the body on.

Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk


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## miscrms (Sep 25, 2013)

So, its a bit of a tight fit  The real snug spots are toward the back where the spring support towers are, and in particular the upper a-arm mounts that protrude into the engine bay. May have to consider relocating the AC comp, we'll have to see if there's still room up there for the inverter.










Had to make a small cut in the floor (drivers side) to allow the gear box / transaxle to sit down low enough. Will probably be able to bend the "flap" back in and weld it to protect the bottom of the gear box. It only needed about 1/2" more.









Pretty well aligned now, but still a little interference on the passenger side front (bottom left of pic). Driver side seems well aligned to hub, but pass side still needs to come forward a smidge.









Removed spring and damper on drivers side, jacked up lower a-arm to previously measured loaded ride height. Here's the view looking through the hub into the transaxle.









Inserted a stick through the hub into the transaxle, looks pretty well level and centered passing through the engine bay wall and spring support tower.









And from above, looks pretty much dead straight through the center of the upper a-arm.









Once I get the fitting a little better on the passenger side, I should be able to make the measurements for the motor mounts and half-shafts. Me thinks those shafts are going to be mighty short, hopefully will be ok with the pretty limited suspension travel...

This is the stuff that scares the crap out of me as an EE 

Rob


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

Hi Rob

They don't look too short - I assume that you are worried about the angle they will have to work with?

The outer has to work with steering angles - you won't get anywhere near them!

The inner CV joint 
I would be very surprised if that was a problem but its easy (if dirty) to check
- take the rubber boot off one - clean it up and have a look at the angle it can make before you run out of movement on the balls in their tracks
Probably worth doing for peace of mind if you are worried about it

Once you have checked and restored your peace of mind re-grease and replace the boot

CV joints on your driveshaft are pretty damn good - they normally only fail if the boot splits and lets dirt in

Come to that I personally would have no qualms in moving the gearbox forwards a bit if that would give more space even if it would mean that the driveshafts had a permanent angle


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## miscrms (Sep 25, 2013)

Thanks Duncan! Appreciate the insights. I have a bunch of measurements to make with regard to the drive shaft angles and lengths, will post when I get there. I think it will probably be ok, but they will be very short. 

Just a rough measurement with each pair of shafts aligned roughly boot to boot, indicates there would be about 3" of shaft visible between boot clamps on the drivers side, probably 5-6" on the passenger side.


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## miscrms (Sep 25, 2013)

Completed the frame "modification" on the passenger side (cut the corner and bashed it in with a sledge hammer). Will likely weld up the gap later, though it is open on the other end already.









Motor now fits in straight without contact, though clearance is <1/2" in places. I've generally tried to cheat the motor to the passenger side as much as possible to leave as much length for the shorter drivers side shaft as possible. Figure it may also help balance my not insignificant "ballast" in the drivers seat 









Sticks re-inserted through hubs into transaxle, now pretty straight on both sides and reasonably centered through the openings in the spring support towers and engine bay walls.









Looking pretty level on both sides now with passenger side spring and damper also removed and upper a-arms wedged in at roughly ride height.

















The transaxle output looks pretty well centered on both sides now when visualized through the hubs.

















This is all with the tension off the crane and the motor wedged in place, so I think I'm about ready to start making measurements for the motor mounts and drive shafts. Planning to outsource fabrication of both, definitely beyond my abilities.

Then will move on to locating the inverter and dcjb around the motor. May be tight in both stock locations with the dcjb vertical behind the motor and inverter on top. But that was part of the rationale for going with the 2012 vs the stacked 2103+, to have more flexibility in their locations. Next will probably turn to the rear and work on the battery supports while waiting for the motor mounts and half shafts to come back.

Rob


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## lottos (Jun 22, 2008)

Exciting times!

Great to read and see this progress, congratulations!


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## miscrms (Sep 25, 2013)

Still figuring it out, but here's my attempt to define the axle assembly lengths. 

Began by defining the major interfaces that the shaft will cross:









Then used my "stick axles" to create what I suppose a carpenter might call a Story Stick, marking the location of each interface along the stick.









The access to these areas is very tight, and measuring directly was going to be almost impossible. So now I should be able to just measure between different marks on the stick to get various dimensions with decent accuracy. I should also be able to makes measurements on the existing axles and overlay location of each major axle component to check clearance and calculate the final shaft length.

Also measured the vertical travel of the suspension at the outside of the hubs, +2", -2.5", so I should be able to estimate the max inner CV joint angles. I'm assuming the outer will be ok, as it should be dominated by the steering which is unchanged?

Hoping to get that all sorted out and take everything down to the local axle shop this weekend if they are open. Hopefully they can tell me if it all looks reasonable 

Rob


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

Hi Rob
One thing you need to check,
The inboard CV joints will be sliding CV joints - they will allow movement in and out as well as the angular movement
You need to ensure that you don't reach the ends of that travel


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## miscrms (Sep 25, 2013)

Ok, that makes sense. Thanks. Will check it out.

Rob


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## miscrms (Sep 25, 2013)

Dropped all four axles off at the machine shop today. He's going to pull them apart and see what we can do about modifying. The leaf shafts are probably tricky, as they are quite fat in the middle, but neck down at the ends where the splines should be. The Saab shafts seem solid and very close in diameter (within a few hundredth at least) to the "necked down" section of the Leaf shafts, so it may be feasible to shorten and respline the Saab shafts to fit the Leaf inners. 

In the long run I may want to get stronger custom shafts made, but given the still relatively high probability that I'll eventually replace the Saab hubs it didn't seem to make sense to go that route now unless there's no other option.

I do worry a bit about the Saab shafts being able to handle the torque increase, but at least Saab is pretty famous for significant overengineering. I know there are folks who've used the originals in racing applications with 2-3X the original HP.


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## miscrms (Sep 25, 2013)

Taking a break from the front end (still have to work out motor mounts) to have a look at the battery mounting in the back end.



















I confirmed that the battery spacers with the bolts connected into the side rails are key to getting the packs rigid. I only have one pack worth of these special spacers, so hopefully they'll still do the job when split between the two packs. Since these are quite nicely rigid with only the end ones in place, I'm hoping that's a good sign.

The good new is they fit in the back as planned  Ideally I wish they could sit a bit lower, but the tunnel for the rear axle is in the way. The outside rails are already in a pretty good spot relative to the top of the rear pan, so I think I can just extend that rail forward to the fuel tank bulkhead. 

For the end brackets, I'll need to modify the supports to be at the same/correct height on each end. They seem to be a separate piece from the end brackets themselves, but not sure how they are welded/attached. Looks like some kind of through hole attachment? Hoping I can just drill that out? Once they are in the right place I plan to just run a cross bar at the front and back for them to rest on. Then it should be pretty straight forward to run a support through the middle for the lower inner rails.

Since there is a nice 5" or so pocket left beneath most of the pack, this is likely where the LBC/BMS and HV Junction box will be mounted. That will allow me to cut the LBC brackets off the end brackets to free up a little more space as well and get the pack as far forward as possible. In theory there would be room for the OBC/charger under there too with its brackets removed. I'd still rather find room for that up front if possible for weight distribution.

Rob


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## miscrms (Sep 25, 2013)

So, I've been thinking more about the motor mounts. The Leaf Motor has 3 cast aluminum "ears" that bolt onto the motor case, so it seems to make sense to replace them with ones that are modified to fit the Sonett's engine bay. The I can use the Leaf rubber mounts, and probably even the steel mount support tabs off the front subframe. 

Modifying the existing ones is probably not practical as they are largely hollow. Having new ones machined out of aluminum would be pretty but likely pricey. Having steel ones welded up would probably be cheaper, but heavy and kind of ugly.

That got me thinking about casting. I'm mildly familiar with the lost wax casting process, and it seems like aluminum is not totally crazy to work with in terms of the temperatures required. Of course, I'd still need a way to come up with a wax "copy" of the pieces, and then modify them as needed. And then I came across this article:
http://3dtopo.com/lostPLA/

Well, now. That's pretty cool  And it just so happens that we got a 3D printer for Christmas..... So know I'm working on creating 3D models of the pieces and watching craigslist for a cheap pottery kiln


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## Baratong (Nov 29, 2012)

miscrms said:


> .... And then I came across this article:
> http://3dtopo.com/lostPLA/
> 
> Well, now. That's pretty cool  And it just so happens that we got a 3D printer for Christmas..... So know I'm working on creating 3D models of the pieces and watching craigslist for a cheap pottery kiln


I read about this recently too, and it looks like a good way to accurately cast parts. I would really like to see how this turns out!


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## tylerwatts (Feb 9, 2012)

*Re: 1973 Saab Sonett Conversion w/Nissan Leaf Drive System*

This sounds great. Be weary of the casting quality though and use a good alloy. Just like you worry about the drive shafts I shudder at the thought of inaccurate or inferior castings. Simply welded plate steel or aluminum mounts would look great in my opinion and guarantee the strength you need.


Tyler


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## palmer_md (Jul 22, 2011)

*Re: 1973 Saab Sonett Conversion w/Nissan Leaf Drive System*



tylerwatts said:


> This sounds great. Be weary of the casting quality though and use a good alloy. Just like you worry about the drive shafts I shudder at the thought of inaccurate or inferior castings. Simply welded plate steel or aluminum mounts would look great in my opinion and guarantee the strength you need.
> 
> 
> Tyler


I agree steel can work just fine and the weight difference is minimal.


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## miscrms (Sep 25, 2013)

Thanks for the insights. If I decide to try this route, I'll definitely need to convince myself they are up to snuff. 

It would be fun to try, but worst case I'll just get them welded up in steel 

Rob


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## dtbaker (Jan 5, 2008)

miscrms said:


> Well, now. That's pretty cool  And it just so happens that we got a 3D printer for Christmas..... So know I'm working on creating 3D models of the pieces and watching craigslist for a cheap pottery kiln



I know a kid at Cal Poly who is working on a 3-d printer that can do high-strength carbon fiber castings.... try contacting dunn.ryan594 at gmail.com and see if he can generate these parts for you I'm not sure how large a piece they can print.


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

miscrms said:


> That got me thinking about casting. I'm mildly familiar with the lost wax casting process, and it seems like aluminum is not totally crazy to work with in terms of the temperatures required.


This guy is a bit crazy (Australian) but with his furnace you could easily turn a cylinder head into a motor mount. Check out his other vids.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pBhOAiipyZg

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EQf5ybsPS3g


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## miscrms (Sep 25, 2013)

Been slow going. Need to get a 240V outlet installed in the garage for the welder, but came across a bunch of other electrical issues that needed attention first. Finally resolved and getting the cabling run for the outlet, hopefully back to work soon! Just in time for it to get hot again 

Added a garage entry:
http://www.diyelectriccar.com/garage/cars/802

Update: I did finally get the outlet done. I figured as long as I was putting one in I might as well go with a 50A circuit. If I'd known what a PITA 6/3 wire was going to be to pull, I might have thought better of it 









Rob


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## Moltenmetal (Mar 20, 2014)

As my handle suggests, I dig molten metal. I do castings using greensand (sand, ground kitty litter and water) and oil-bonded sand. But those lost plastic 3D printed investment castings looked awesome- as long as you compensate properly for shrinkage, that looks like an excellent method! Not very cheap though, by the time you pay for the printing of the patterns and the investment which is all obviously single use. I mold simpler parts but I make wood patterns.


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## miscrms (Sep 25, 2013)

Slowly getting back on the job. Cut the front of the subframe up on the Leaf, so I can harvest the Motor mount tabs. Planning to weld those to the Sonett frame, then I'll have the final dimensions for the mount brackets.




























Then once the measurements are final, I'm going to give the 3D printer -> Aluminum casting a go. If that doesn't work out I'll plan to have them welded up in steel by the machine shop. I have the disassembled ends from the CV axles back, so once the motor location is set I can take final measurements for the modified shafts.

Rob


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## Moltenmetal (Mar 20, 2014)

Hey- long time no hear! Are you getting anywhere on this project? Still working on it?


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## Aethora (Jun 13, 2020)

Was curious if you ever finished this project? I'm wanting to do this EXACT conversion so I was hoping to use your very detailed posts as a pseudo guide.


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