# Sinopoly or CALB



## winzeracer (Apr 3, 2012)

VoltBug said:


> I am starting upgrade of my 72 Bug conversion from 144V AGM pack to 288V 100AH Pack. I am deciding between Sinopoly and CALB. Both seem to be available in the US now from Evolve Electrics for $125 and $128 respectively.
> 
> What is the verdict on Sinopoly? Has it been now proven superior to CALB? I was leaning towards CALBS but came across a recent thread with concern on CALB quality.
> 
> ...



Sinoply Specs
_
Capacity	100Ah
Nominal Voltage	3.2V
Cut-off Voltage (discharge)	2.8V
Cut-off Voltage (charge)	3.8V
Max. charge current	3C
Max. discharge current (constant)	3C
*Max. discharge current (Impulse 10S)	5C*
Dimensions	5.6" x 8.7" x 2.4"
Weight	6.9 lbs (3.13kg)
Cycle Life	80% DOD > 2000 Charges
70% DOD > 3000 Charges_


CALB Specs

_Nominal Capacity(Ah) 100
Nominal Voltage (V) 3.2
Inner Resistance (1Khz AC, M) ≤0.9
Charging Cut-off Voltage (CCCV Model, V) 3.6
Discharging Cut-off Voltage(V) 2.5
Recommend Charging-Discharging Current (0.3C,A) 30
*Maximum short-time (Burst) Discharging Current (period≤10s,A) 800*
Life Cycle (0.3C Charging-discharging,80%DD C) 2000
Operating Thermal Ambient
Charging 0℃～45℃
Discharging -20℃～55℃
Storage Thermal Ambient -20℃～45℃
Weight(kg) 3.2±0.1kg
Shell Material Plastic
Specification MODEL: SE100AHA_


Both are the same weight, Calb has Higher max discharge current( 8C vs 5C), which may or may not be something you desire. 

I cannot speak on quality I have some Calb cells in my garage but have decided to go to pouch cells. I bought my cells from EVolve electrics, they shipped quickly and and have been reasonable to deal with, though they have not returned my emails this week.

Good Luck!


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## somanywelps (Jan 25, 2012)

The Winston (Thundersky) have a 20C discharge impulse current.


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## dladd (Jun 1, 2011)

winzeracer said:


> Both are the same weight, Calb has Higher max discharge current( 8C vs 5C), which may or may not be something you desire.


or believe... Realistically all these large format cells are generally 3-4c capable, with an occasional few seconds at higher rates. Design around 3c and you'll be happy.

With 288v and an AC24 I don't think you have anything to worry about with regards to battery current though. How many amps can your controller pull? Either cell will be fine. CALB has been around a bit longer now, I don't think there are many (any?) DIY builds on the road with the Sinopoly cells yet. which one is in stock ready to ship?


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## Elithion (Oct 6, 2009)

VoltBug said:


> I am deciding between Sinopoly and CALB. ... from Evolve Electrics


Evolve can also sell you a BMS: Justin offers 3 different BMSs.

Among all the BMSs that are available today, this utility will let you select the ideal BMS for your application.


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## MN Driver (Sep 29, 2009)

It all depends on the cell size.

If you look at CALB the cells from 40Ah to 70Ah it's 10C (400amps for 40Ah, 600amps for 60Ah and 700 amps for 70Ah) for 10 seconds.
100Ah to 130Ah is 8C for 10 seconds (800 amps or 1000 amps)
180Ah and larger are listed as 1000 amps for 10 seconds

For some reason I can't pull the spec sheet up on their site, the 'download product information' link doesn't pull anything up but this is what it said the last time I looked at it.

The 130Ah cells aren't on the site anymore.

Sinopoly puts 5C on all the cells but when I contacted them about their 20Ah pouch cells it was clear that they don't market them as higher C rates for smaller cells but the smaller ones do have less voltage sag which means less heat in the cells so you should be able to have a larger short period high amp discharge with a smaller cell versus a larger one. I'd think the ratings on the CALB cells should be listed the same with Sinopoly cells as their 5C discharge chart on the 100Ah looks like it can do so much more than 5C for a short period of time.

This is the reason I'm pointing myself towards a higher voltage pack at the same capacity of Sinopoly 60Ah cells versus going 100Ah cells with my conversion. Less voltage sag is also higher efficiency and less heat for the same C rating draw.

I just wish I could get the 60Ah B-size cell here but everyone selling them shows the larger black versus that is bigger and weighs more when I want the smaller one that weighs less otherwise I won't get close to the 20kwh capacity goal in my car.

I don't think we can say that Sinopoly has been proven superior, not many people have them and people who do have them aren't saying much about them here other than posting a few pictures of the cells they received and none as far as I can tell are in the states.


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## VoltBug (Jun 1, 2012)

Thanks for all your replies. Looks like CALB is the way to go.

Voltbug


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## batterytang (Nov 17, 2011)

CALB has stock in US, a bettery choise


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## 3xe-electric-cars (Jun 7, 2012)

dladd said:


> or believe... Realistically all these large format cells are generally 3-4c capable, with an occasional few seconds at higher rates. Design around 3c and you'll be happy.
> 
> With 288v and an AC24 I don't think you have anything to worry about with regards to battery current though. How many amps can your controller pull? Either cell will be fine. CALB has been around a bit longer now, I don't think there are many (any?) DIY builds on the road with the Sinopoly cells yet. which one is in stock ready to ship?


I agree.
I have explained that in some other topic, but it could be usable also here.



Remember, that material (cathode-anode) wear is faster when charging-discharging process is faster. 

To explain it in pictures.... 
It works like in TETRIS video game:










If the GAME SPEED (charge-discharge CURRENT) is higher, BRICKS (IONS)are falling faster on the surface (cathode or anode) in NON ORGANIZED way. It makes the working material surface less efficient and it reduces usable capacity of the battery.


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## VoltBug (Jun 1, 2012)

Need recommendation for a reliable and responsive supplier for batteries - 90 CALB 100AH, charger (PFC 30M) and BMS (Lithiumate-Lite). I was ready to place order with Justin but he does not even reply to emails...


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## Elithion (Oct 6, 2009)

VoltBug said:


> Need recommendation for a reliable and responsive supplier for batteries - 90 CALB 100AH, charger (PFC 30M) and BMS (Lithiumate-Lite). I was ready to place order with Justin but he does not even reply to emails...


Yes, Evolve sells CALB cells, and is the go to place for a Lithiumate Lite BMS. You can also try KTA. 

I just saw Justin of Evolve: he was picking up a bunch Lithiumate Lite BMS kits from us that he sold. He told me he's all caught up with his emails. Can you please reply to this post and confirm that he got back to you as well? I don't want people to get the impression that he's not responsive. We're all swamped right now (a good problem to have!), but he is responding. Please let us know.


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## ricklearned (Mar 3, 2012)

VoltBug said:


> Need recommendation for a reliable and responsive supplier for batteries - 90 CALB 100AH, charger (PFC 30M) and BMS (Lithiumate-Lite). I was ready to place order with Justin but he does not even reply to emails...


Have you tried Keegan Han at CALB. He got right back to me on a quote for 32 100Ahrs.

http://www.calibpower.com/
They are in Pomona, California.


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## VoltBug (Jun 1, 2012)

ricklearned said:


> Have you tried Keegan Han at CALB. He got right back to me on a quote for 32 100Ahrs.
> 
> http://www.calibpower.com/
> They are in Pomona, California.


Yes, Keegan is very responsive. My only problem is that I am California and would end up paying sales tax if I purchase from Keegan since he is also in the same state whereas Justin is out of state.


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## ricklearned (Mar 3, 2012)

VoltBug said:


> Yes, Keegan is very responsive. My only problem is that I am California and would end up paying sales tax if I purchase from Keegan since he is also in the same state whereas Justin is out of state.


I am an hour away from Pomona so the ability to will call the batteries at the warehouse and to have a local resource to go to in the event of a problem is worth the 9% sales tax. I also picked up my AC35 in Ontario. I tried to order my motor from a dealer outside California but since the transfer of possession would take place in California the sales tax applied. So in the end, I paid some tax to Sacramento but saved some freight. Let us know what you find out, since I haven't ordered my batteries yet.

I did get some cable from Evolve in Colorado. They were very responsive. Their website suggests getting a freight quote for more than 10 pieces.


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## VoltBug (Jun 1, 2012)

Elithion said:


> Yes, Evolve sells CALB cells, and is the go to place for a Lithiumate Lite BMS. You can also try KTA.
> 
> I just saw Justin of Evolve: he was picking up a bunch Lithiumate Lite BMS kits from us that he sold. He told me he's all caught up with his emails. Can you please reply to this post and confirm that he got back to you as well? I don't want people to get the impression that he's not responsive. We're all swamped right now (a good problem to have!), but he is responding. Please let us know.


Heard back from Justin and he took care of the order. Thank you.


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## winzeracer (Apr 3, 2012)

VoltBug said:


> Heard back from Justin and he took care of the order. Thank you.


Justin at EVolve was very helpful and cleared everything up. He is a very stand up businessman. I will be purchasing my controller from him as well. Sorry for not getting back to the post. In my originally post I stated that EVolve was "reasonable", they have since been upgraded to very helpful in my books. I


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## batterytang (Nov 17, 2011)

3xe-electric-cars said:


> I agree.
> I have explained that in some other topic, but it could be usable also here.
> 
> 
> ...


I am very like your picture


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## 3xe-electric-cars (Jun 7, 2012)

batterytang said:


> I am very like your picture


 This is the way we decribe it to our customer when they talk about buying extremely small battery packa and want to use i.e. 6C of the battery


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## Elegancec (May 23, 2012)

Hi Im planning my drivetrain (BMW Z3):

Kostov K9 220V (ordered), Soliton Jr. Controller (not ordered until now), 

The best weight ratio have the Sinopoly 60Ah cells (1,99kg per unit).
So will get at least 60 cells in series under the hood and 40 cells into the trunk.
So I have to reduce may be by 2 cells because of high voltage for the controller (max. 340V). 
The controller is able to handle at maximum 600A, the motor has as its limit 220V and under full load 190V at 600A so its for short time 114kW under full load when I interpolate the graphic at 215Nm.
So the cells will provide at 300A @20 percent voltage drop/sag 82kW.
It seems to me not be able to get the full power of the motor, so I have to increase the Amps to round about 400-500A.

So what voltage drop would you expect in this constellation? Is 20 percent too much calculated for sag? In my opinion the accelleration phase is very short and if the car will break, the battery will not be charged, so it will idle.

I think it could work


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## somanywelps (Jan 25, 2012)

Elegancec said:


> Hi Im planning my drivetrain (BMW Z3):
> 
> Kostov K9 220V (ordered), Soliton Jr. Controller (not ordered until now),
> 
> ...


Are you sure you wouldn't rather a K11 alpha? It was designed for the Z3...


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## Elegancec (May 23, 2012)

Hello,

No its impossible to use because of the extra weight. I calculated the performance, it will be in 10.5s instead of10.4s to 100km/h or until 90km/h it will be faster.
So these values are of the 1.8litre engine. If I would use the alpha I have toincrease brake system and suspension to the 2.8 equal version. Thats too expensive and not necessary, orI have to reduce the range from 120km to 90 at max. In average I count with 97km with 19kWh.


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## MN Driver (Sep 29, 2009)

Elegancec said:


> Hi Im planning my drivetrain (BMW Z3):
> 
> Kostov K9 220V (ordered), Soliton Jr. Controller (not ordered until now),
> 
> ...


Wait, where are you getting the full load 190v at 600 amps? I haven't yet come across that limit anywhere. It was my understanding that you could push a higher voltage than this under load. Also your 20% voltage sag calculation doesn't make any sense either. If you are using 98 cells as you propose, 20% sag of 3.2v puts you at 250v and if you are trying to say that you are going to be at 190v at 600amps, I don't think you will see that much sag. I'm just not sure where you are getting the numbers.

According to the Sinopoly 5C charts, if they are accurate, 5C should put you at about 2.8v per cell. 98 cells and you are at around 274v at 300 amps. With the voltage of pack you are running, if you are only going to pull 300 amps from them, sag is not a factor unless you are pushing either higher amperage or higher voltage than this 190v that you pulled out of wherever you got it from? I'm a little lost in your numbers and I'm also not entirely sure of the real limits of this motor because Kostov seems to think that if you are pushing over 220v to the motor that your RPM is through the roof, but if you want to push 600 amps to the motor up to 5500RPM, it looks like you'd really need about 280v going to the motor from what I'm seeing in the charts. I'm not sure what the short term thermal limits are of the Kostov 9 so don't take that as advice but there was a thread that seemed to suggest that pushing 250v to the motor would be fine. RPM limit is 7k RPM but you drop amperage if you don't raise the voltage off nominal. 190v at 600amps would probably cap your torque at high 3000's RPM.


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