# Two nickels worth of battery power --- The Interview



## ww321q (Mar 28, 2008)

Can you say NiZn
http://www.powermanagementdesignline.com/news/206905768
J.W.


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## ragee (May 25, 2008)

This looks promising. I wonder if they can be put in packs big enough for ev's and I wonder what they would weigh?


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## ww321q (Mar 28, 2008)

ragee said:


> This looks promising. I wonder if they can be put in packs big enough for ev's and I wonder what they would weigh?


Ok then . How about these ?

http://www.alibaba.com/catalog/11420929/Nikel_Zinc_Battery_Xell_50.html
J.W.


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## ClintK (Apr 27, 2008)

ww321q said:


> Ok then . How about these ?
> 
> http://www.alibaba.com/catalog/11420929/Nikel_Zinc_Battery_Xell_50.html
> J.W.


Shoot, I'm going to contact them to try and get a price. How many of these http://www.budgetbatteries.com/product_info.php?products_id=487&language=1 do you think I'll need for reasonable range? Let's see, 1.5V cells, 96 cells in series to get 144V, how many in parallel... (Is it even feasible with the current draw?)


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## Manntis (May 22, 2008)

I'm waiting for aluminum-air batteries to be perfected 
_
The Al/air battery system can generate enough energy and power for driving ranges and acceleration similar to gasoline powered cars...the cost of aluminum as an anode can be as low as US$ 1.1/kg as long as the reaction product is recycled. The total fuel efficiency during the cycle process in Al/air electric vehicles (EVs) can be 15% (present stage) or 20% (projected) comparable to that of internal combustion engine vehicles (ICEs) (13%). The design battery energy density is 1300 Wh/kg (present) or 2000 Wh/kg (projected). The cost of battery system chosen to evaluate is US$ 30/kW (present) or US$ 29/kW (projected). Al/air EVs life-cycle analysis was conducted and compared to lead/acid and nickel metal hydride (NiMH) EVs. Only the Al/air EVs can be projected to have a travel range comparable to ICEs. From this analysis, Al/air EVs are the most promising candidates compared to ICEs in terms of travel range, purchase price, fuel cost, and life-cycle cost._

Design and analysis of aluminium/air battery system for electric vehicles" Shaohua Yang, Harold Knickle Journal of Power Sources 112 (2002) 162–173.


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## ww321q (Mar 28, 2008)

ClintK said:


> Shoot, I'm going to contact them to try and get a price. How many of these http://www.budgetbatteries.com/product_info.php?products_id=487&language=1 do you think I'll need for reasonable range? Let's see, 1.5V cells, 96 cells in series to get 144V, how many in parallel... (Is it even feasible with the current draw?)


I'm not sure those are the rechargeable type ? They may be throw aways . J.W.


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## paker (Jun 20, 2008)

Al-air are primary batteries, i.e., non-rechargeable, and can also be considered to be fuel cells. Once the aluminium anode is consumed by its reaction with atmospheric oxygen at a cathode immersed in a water-based electrolyte to form hydrated aluminium oxide, the battery will no longer produce electricity. However, it may be possible to mechanically recharge the battery with new aluminium anodes made from recycling the hydrated aluminium oxide. In fact, recycling the formed aluminium oxide will be essential if aluminium air batteries are to be widely adopted.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aluminium_battery


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## ww321q (Mar 28, 2008)

We are actually talking about nickel-zinc batteries that are being made now and not Aluminum-air batteries (that are only a concept) but thanks  J.W.


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## Coley (Jul 26, 2007)

Doesn't sound very good for the EV market though.

I contacted Enersys and they have an Odessy XE-95 that sounds good for EVs. But are $300+ each. 12 volt, 100 AH.


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## xrotaryguy (Jul 26, 2007)

The NiZn batteries in the link at the top of the page look extremely promising. I emailed them and asked how much current they could carry, what the external dimensions were (the 1.8V batt does not list the L x W x H) and clarified about the arrangement (the battery in the pic is a pack of 16 batteries in series, so I just want to make sure). We'll see what the answer is.

If these batteries truly do weigh half as much as lead and cost half as much as Li Ion and can carry sufficient current... wow!


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## MarxNutz (Apr 5, 2008)

paker said:


> Al-air are primary batteries, i.e., non-rechargeable, and can also be considered to be fuel cells. Once the aluminium anode is consumed by its reaction with atmospheric oxygen at a cathode immersed in a water-based electrolyte to form hydrated aluminium oxide, the battery will no longer produce electricity. However, it may be possible to mechanically recharge the battery with new aluminium anodes made from recycling the hydrated aluminium oxide. In fact, recycling the formed aluminium oxide will be essential if aluminium air batteries are to be widely adopted.
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aluminium_battery


 I remember an episode of Beyond 2000 from around 1991 that featured two young French engineers who claimed to have invented a "source" battery, using the equivalent of 2 aluminum soda pop cans for the plates, that would PRODUCE electricity from the chemical reaction of the electrolyte and the plates. They also claimed that the plates could be reconstituted from the electrolyte later. They even built a two-seat sporty looking electric car using this battery, and claimed they got 200 km range from a single battery! At the end of the article, the narrator said these men were going to pursue a patent in the United States for their invention, but I never heard a word about it again anywhere. 
I asked my brother (the chemical engineer) about it, and he said 'oh yeah that's easy, you just have to find the optimal electrolyte to get the voltage and amperage you want'... So now I'm looking back at that with the McCain proposal in my head, wondering where I could get about a thousand new, empty battery cases, a source for aluminum plates and make a list of possible liquids to use as electrolyte! Things that make you go HMMMMMMMMMMMMM....


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## etischer (Jun 16, 2008)

The linked article says they are making a 30v 13Ah pack using 2 parallel D cell strings. The are cycling at 250 cycles, LOL, and that meets the targeted spec for their customers. Chinese scooters, gotta love em! 

My friend bought a Chinese gas powered scooter and after the first week, discovered it was designed without a charging system. You have to plug it in to charge the battery every night. The speedo was calibrated for Km/hr they just put a mph sticker over Km/hr. 

Anyhow, the NiZn battery people also claim that they have higher energy density than NiMH. A D cell NiMH cell is rated 10Ah @1.2V, their battery is rated 6.5Ah @ 1.6V. The NiMH cell is better by 1.6Wh. Don't believe everything a sales guy tells you. 





ragee said:


> This looks promising. I wonder if they can be put in packs big enough for ev's and I wonder what they would weigh?


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## Grant_NZ (May 28, 2008)

xrotaryguy said:


> We'll see what the answer is.
> 
> If these batteries truly do weigh half as much as lead and cost half as much as Li Ion and can carry sufficient current... wow!


Any answer from them yet?


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## Nate (Jul 10, 2008)

*I did quite a bit of reading but still did not find the answers to all my questions on NiZn. Maybe somebody here knows this technology.*

*I was disappointed to find the largest cell was a "D" size battery. Do they make larger cells?*

*What happens if these NiZn cells are run totally dead, will they be damaged or are they like NiCd in this case?*

*What happens if they get over-charged?*

*What happens if they get reversed?*


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## xrotaryguy (Jul 26, 2007)

Grant_NZ said:


> Any answer from them yet?


Nope. I emailed them twice and they never emailed me back. I don't think this one if for real.


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## Nate (Jul 10, 2008)

*Looks like NiZn is going nowhere, I can't find any validation either. I am going to have to agree with xrotaryguy on this one.*


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## ww321q (Mar 28, 2008)

I'm sorry I can't just let it go  J.W.
http://featured.matternetwork.com/2008/5/coming-soon-hybrid-near-nizn.cfm


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## xrotaryguy (Jul 26, 2007)

Interesting article. I really hope that your right about NiZn batteries JW. Having three competing competent battery technologies (NiZn, NiMH and Li Ion) would be great.


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## drivin98 (May 9, 2008)

The problem with NiZn batteries is the cycle life. I can't remember the exact number right now but it's 300 cycles or less.


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## ww321q (Mar 28, 2008)

I think that is what they have been working on . Some claim to get over 500 cycles . But you are right , that has been the downfall in the past . J.W.


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