# Open source controller kits



## jackbauer (Jan 12, 2008)

Just in case anyone missed it the 144v 500amp open source controller kits are now for sale
http://www.paulandsabrinasevstuff.com/store/page3.html

Thats my controller problem solved anyway.


----------



## frodus (Apr 12, 2008)

lack of specs on the "store" part of the site

just saying 144V and 500A doesn't mean much with other numbers (at what temperature, is that continuous, does it have LVC, what switching freq, what kind of throttle input, can you program setpoints like current limit, voltage sag limit, etc etc).

Might be a deal, but without some numbers, graphs and other information (like real world video of them being used), I'd be a little cautious.


----------



## Jokerzwild (Jun 11, 2009)

Jack get back to your BMS for your NI-MH and don't do anything else


----------



## jackbauer (Jan 12, 2008)

yes boss


----------



## MPaulHolmes (Feb 23, 2008)

frodus said:


> lack of specs on the "store" part of the site
> 
> just saying 144V and 500A doesn't mean much with other numbers (at what temperature, is that continuous, does it have LVC, what switching freq, what kind of throttle input, can you program setpoints like current limit, voltage sag limit, etc etc).
> 
> Might be a deal, but without some numbers, graphs and other information (like real world video of them being used), I'd be a little cautious.


I agree! We need to do that. It has LVC. 15.5 kHz switching frequency. 2 wire 5k pot (pb-6 or whatever). User programming current limit will be done soon. Right now, it's just current proportional to throttle with a PI loop that was tuned to a 9" diameter motor. Hardware overcurrent protection cycle by cycle. 

I don't have the tools to test how long it can run at a given current before the thermal cutback kicks in, but I do know that a beta tester that had a Curtis 1231C in Phoenix, which was in perpetual whine mode because of the heat had no heating problems with his 25-30 or so miles per day in July and August on the freeway in 110 degree weather with this controller. I'm not saying all this so people will order a kit. I actually am sort of tired of putting the kits together. I would rather they go to the Wiki, and do everything themself like Jack Hauer is doing! hehe.

Old video of beta tester:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mDQLjwKT7vY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z8JpIhaZRy0

There have been some software improvements since then.


----------



## frodus (Apr 12, 2008)

Thats what I'm talkin' about....that helps a little...some thermal specs/times would be good, like zilla is 350A continuous at 50C....1000A peak....

Kelly might have a 100A controller that might only see 1000A for 1/2 second before starting to back off....

So all these controllers have the same peaks, but I guarantee they all behave different. Having something to benchmark is VERY useful and if it holds up, could prove to be very helpful in sales of kits


----------



## MPaulHolmes (Feb 23, 2008)

frodus said:


> could prove to be very helpful in sales of kits


NOOO, no more kits! Sick of drilling and milling and etching!!!!!!!!!!!!! hahahaha


----------



## MPaulHolmes (Feb 23, 2008)

Frodus: What the heck!? You are in Lacey?! I'm in Lacey! hahaha. I know where Lacey Boulevard is. I live just off Martin Way by the Regal Cinemas. This is just too weird!


----------



## Qer (May 7, 2008)

MPaulHolmes said:


> NOOO, no more kits! Sick of drilling and milling and etching!!!!!!!!!!!!! hahahaha


Well, maybe it's time to take the step to order the most boring parts pre-fabricated to cut down on the tedious work? Hm? Btw, it's really cool that your controller's actually taking off and that you managed to actually do a DIY-controller.

...but am I glad that our controller is assembled on a completely different continent...


----------



## MPaulHolmes (Feb 23, 2008)

Qer said:


> Well, maybe it's time to take the step to order the most boring parts pre-fabricated to cut down on the tedious work?


Tell that to my bank account!  I am currently doing the "We don't make it till you order it!". That's a great philosophy at Jack in the Box or whatever, but not so much for driving the price of parts down.

Why can't I be rich instead of so darn good looking?!


----------



## frodus (Apr 12, 2008)

MPaulHolmes said:


> Frodus: What the heck!? You are in Lacey?! I'm in Lacey! hahaha. I know where Lacey Boulevard is. I live just off Martin Way by the Regal Cinemas. This is just too weird!


I'm in Portland, OR, but my employer EVComponents.com is based out of Lacey... i get up there every now and then....maybe grab a coffee or beer next time I'm up there.


----------



## Mesuge (Mar 6, 2008)

Paul, congrats to you and the other devs/betatesters, very fascinating development. I'm curious as to whether there is any roadmap into the future. If I recall it correctly, there has been some preliminary talk about possible upgrades/version of this controller for 750A aka ~100kW peak at the "eco" forum thread.

Now there are several options: 

1/ Continuous update of the current 144V controller design & software:
- ~100kW (750A) peak output
- serial-parallel switching for two motors (ala siames)
- sepex motor support (regen)

2/ Move into higher voltage (Zilla/Soliton1)
- at least 264V nominal
- 300-600kW peak output

3/ Build/lead a completely "new market segment" aka THE FUTURE
- AC controller ~100kW peak (600V DC bus - don't worry for charging it's broken into <50V packs)
- 400V industrial motors and/or servo ACIMs overclocked by factor of x4 or more

I think that especially the options #1 and #3 are the best for your team,
since that's where brains matter the most, the hardware is more affordable. In case of #3 it's just hacking the plentifull industrial emotors and VFD designs/2nd hand supplies. For instance check the (in)-famous 100kW Microchip controller design discussed on this forum, Etischer's project on upgrading small inverters into much higher kW output http://etischer.com/awdev/inverter.html/ or the classic: http://www.evalbum.com/1149 
.


----------



## ftaffy (Mar 13, 2009)

Paul posted an option to make a 180V 700A version by upgrading a few parts: http://ecomodder.com/forum/showthre...44v-motor-controller-6404-232.html#post130083

So tick to 1 part. 
Siamese - would be great but you could have a switch to do the switching yourself. And how many would actually use it? Performance guys but few others IMO.

Sepex and AC are a slightly different kettle of fish, possible joing a Brushed and Sepex in tandum could be fun. Big motor with power and a smaller one for more power but regen? - joke.

But for now i tihnk i will settle for the 500A version and then possibly go for an upgraded one down the line.


----------



## jackbauer (Jan 12, 2008)

I'm working on an igbt option with the potential for 300v 1000amps if i don't die trying


----------



## Mesuge (Mar 6, 2008)

Jack> cool stuff, I think ~300kW is approaching the practical limit anyway, beside the question of available motors, running gear, batteries and cabling to run that beast, affordable/dependable contactors for 48V brake-up of ~300V DC pack (for safe charging) are usually rated for few seconds at 1500A continuous.. You see, I'm not friend of these master-blaster charging setups above 100V with single charger, that's a recipe for disaster soooner or later.

Btw. is it going to need a water cooled plate?


----------



## jackbauer (Jan 12, 2008)

yeah i'm going to water cool it anyway purely because igbts will thermal runaway quite easy. Nothing fancy just a modified pc setup. At least thats the plan!


----------



## blackpanther-st (Apr 4, 2009)

Paul sorry I haven't been active for a while, we had a family loss here, so everything stopped almost completely. Any way set up a good business plan for doing the kits the way it should be done, and go to a bank; you might be surprised if your plan is solid enough. 

Good luck!


----------



## MPaulHolmes (Feb 23, 2008)

Hey Black Panther! I'm so sorry to hear about your loss. 

On the AC controller front, I would definitely like to do an AC inverter with space vector control, clarke and park transformations and inverse transforms, etc.. ! ya! I need a dsPIC30F5015, and I don't have a way to program it yet.


----------



## blackpanther-st (Apr 4, 2009)

Thanks Paul! It's been rough especially on my dad, but we are getting by. 

I do have a little more to show at this point, I did the first road test a few weeks ago; the details are in my second signature thread.

Your going to take on AC? Wow that's a big step! Good luck with it.


----------



## adamj12b (May 4, 2009)

Hey Guys

I just finished the initial release of a new windows program that my friend Kyle and I wrote. You can use this to graph all the data coming out of Fran's new firmware in real time!! You can save this data to a CSV file for importing in excel if you want. The program has a built in terminal window that you can use to set settings of the controller such as loop and throttle min and max. We also added an interface to the bootloader to make it easier to flash new files onto the controllers. It also includes a built in updater.

Keep in mind that this is version 0.1 and is still a little buggy, but we are hoping you guys can help us out by finding bugs and reporting them here: https://rtdexplorer.fogbugz.com/default.asp?pg=pgPublicEdit

You can download the program from here.RTD Explorer

I will be adding a link to the website shortly with the supporting files such as the boot loader. 

Heres a video showing all in operation.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HoByaba2ipY

Please let us know what you think. 

-Adam


----------



## Stunt Driver (May 14, 2009)

Great stuff, guys!

From guessing on emtry segments - I would say would be great to de-pop this kit, so offer something much cheaper, capable of less amps and volts, and maybe with no limiting, but - cheaper. Hard to tell without looking much in schematics what can be sacraficed.

Especially great would be to have possibility of future upgrade (or reusing parts in more powerfull design).


I would personally fall for cheap kit, but $600 is a bit over the limit for me now.


----------



## jackbauer (Jan 12, 2008)

Most of that cost is in the power section. I'm doing an igbt based power design that should be much cheaper if parts are sourced second hand and capable of small to insane power levels depending on requirements.


----------



## MPaulHolmes (Feb 23, 2008)

well like 300-350 of it is parts. in bulk it could be maybe 220 or so. most is the annoyance of drilling and labelling and bagging parts. go to ecomodder wiki and do it all yourself for a few hundred dollars cheaper


----------



## Stunt Driver (May 14, 2009)

Thanks, looked at it, and realized I need oscilloscope first. 
But back to "starter kit" - seems like most companies would offer a "teaser" product, stripped of all the nice features but at lower cost. You'll normally have this person back for upgrade later, and again, many companies make more on upgrades than on initial sale itself 

ps And, Hey, Great job on putting kit together!! I hope it sells


----------



## blackpanther-st (Apr 4, 2009)

Stunt Driver said:


> Thanks, looked at it, and realized I need oscilloscope first.
> But back to "starter kit" - seems like most companies would offer a "teaser" product, stripped of all the nice features but at lower cost. You'll normally have this person back for upgrade later, and again, many companies make more on upgrades than on initial sale itself
> 
> ps And, Hey, Great job on putting kit together!! I hope it sells



Honestly most of his component cost is in his power section; stripping off most of the functionality he designed in to this, for a mere 5% savings at best is simply not worth it. and if you are sill thinking about running a PWM controller without current limiting, you will very quicly blow the controller and everything you put into it.


----------



## MPaulHolmes (Feb 23, 2008)

man that's a fact. Well said, blackpanther. However, if you can do your own precision drilling through 1.5" aluminum (and some other stuff), and don't mind tracking down other little things and ordering parts yourself from digikey and mouser, you can save yourself a couple hundred dollars. It would be a little annoying but not that bad. A guy down south just did that and it worked really well for him.

ON a side note, I finished a draft of the assembly process (lots of pictures!). It's now in a PDF format, but I don't have anywhere to stick it! Maybe my wife can put it on our website.


----------



## adamj12b (May 4, 2009)

Hey everybody, 

I have uploaded Version 0.2.0.0 of RDT Explorer to the server. You should be able to click help in the program and then check for updates and use that to update. Let me know how it goes.


You can also get it at the website: www.EVVette.com


We have fixed a bunch of bugs and added some features. 

You are now able to connect and disconnect form the controller without an error, and you can also change serial ports from 1 through 4 without an error. 

We removed the need to select the AVRboot.exe file for the boot loader. It is not included with the program. 

We have added a pause graph and save graph button as well. When you hit save graph, a message will pop up asking where you want to save the image of the graph, when you hit save, thats the image it saves. so its still rolling, hit save quick or you could lose the image that you want, Unless you pause the graph first.

Also, In the bottom on the screen you will see an Amp Hours meter. This is the amount of power you have drained from your batteries so far. Im still working on this, but I believe it is fairly accurate. Maybe somebody could check it for me?

well I think thats it for now. Let me know that you all think.

-Adam


----------



## jackbauer (Jan 12, 2008)

I think its great. Just ran a test on the bench with the 12v starter. consumed .35ah! I really like the heatsink temp readout also. Might be worth having the amp hour and heatsink temp data a bit larger to allow for easy viewing when tooling around in the car


----------



## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

Having seen the work Jackbauer has been doing with his controller is it possible to have the controller as a 'plug and play' once it is self built or does it still need proper testing and setting up with 'scopes and stuff and then programming?


----------



## jackbauer (Jan 12, 2008)

they sell a "build it and go" kit for $600. 144v 500amps. I'm just torturing myself and i'm a tight wad


----------



## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

jackbauer said:


> they sell a "build it and go" kit for $600. 144v 500amps. I'm just torturing myself and i'm a tight wad


I assume the kit contains everything needed whereas you are sourcing your own descrete components. Is that the reason for all the testing?

If I got the boards, a component list and went shopping at RS would it still be 'plug and play' within the specs?

I'm definately trying to work out the cost saving DIY route against the strong (and expensive) foundations route, using a Zilla or Soltan, and having the capacity for more volts and more amps to run a bigger motor later on.

Also it would seem a waste to have a sporty looking car that can't show off just a bit at the club meets eventually.


----------



## jackbauer (Jan 12, 2008)

Basically I wouldn't be doing an ev at all if it were not for the fact that i discovered forklift motors and the open source controller. Like yourself i'd love a soliton and if i had the means i'd get one and a warp11 no question. Its not just the money issue but the pure hell of importing such things. I'm sure its similar in the uk but at least you have a sane vat rate. For me to actually be in the same room as a solition and warp11 would probably cost twice the sticker price. Case in point was when i ordered the control board from paul holmes. Took 5 days to get from the west coast of the states to ireland. Then another 7 days and almost 40 euros in vat and charges to get from the head post office to my house a distance of less than 50 miles.

the motor i purchased from the forklift place in dublin is probably much the same as the warp. 11.5". As far as i know warp simply specify what they require to a forklift motor company anyway! Being able to just hop in a friends van and go pick the thing up , pay cash and drive away was , as mastercard say , priceless. No moron couriers , no waiting , no busted up pallets. That motor came from a 4 ton 80volt mitsubishi truck. thats the sort of thing you need to look out for.

In terms of the controller i'm doing all the messing about with testing because i have the time , inclination and cheap parts to do so. It'll save me some money and i'll learn about high current electronics (probably the hard way) in the process. Had i purchased the complete kit it would have just gone over the "domestic customs tarrif" and i would have had to employ a shipping agent who takes on average 20% of total price for items under 1000 euros. I'd advise you look into the uk laws in that regard. Of course that could be circumvented by breaking the order into two lots. Bit more in shipping costs but a hell of a lot less pain. Anyone that can use a soldering iron can assemble the kit. I was actually surprised with the quality of the control pcb and the general layout and design. I've shorted it , banged the power rails about and no problems. I can't even glitch the processor!

If i were you i'd get a lift motor , an open source controller and save the big spending for a nice li-ion pack. Better to have a medium performance ev than none at all. My theory anyway


----------



## alvin (Jul 26, 2008)

I have been using the newer version of the software for a few weeks.
My ranger scoots around as peppy as it did with the ICE. So far I am satisfied with the controller. Thanks Paul.

Alvin


----------



## Georgia Tech (Dec 5, 2008)

Paul I am going to get me one of these with the upgrades to make it 180 volts at 750 amps!! as soon as I get my christmas money!!


----------



## EVMAN (Jul 26, 2007)

Does any one in the USA offer kits(hardware) like the ones in Australia?

Are the pcbs(control & power) still being offered for sale??

I'm mainly interested in the hardware kit(s) minus the case.
(and the pcbs)

Anyone with actual driving experiences with a fully operational DIY controller
with an EV with a GWV of greater than 3000lbs?

lmk
thanx
T


----------



## alvin (Jul 26, 2008)

http://ecomodder.com/wiki/index.php/ReVolt
Here a link to the parts list. I am using the controller in a Ranger.
It is nice and smooth. I am satisfied with it. My batteries are the weak
link. scoots around pretty good but not too far.
Alvin


----------



## MPaulHolmes (Feb 23, 2008)

EVMAN said:


> Does any one in the USA offer kits(hardware) like the ones in Australia?
> 
> Are the pcbs(control & power) still being offered for sale??
> 
> ...


Joe Yanof in Phoenix is using one of the controllers in his 3800 lb car. He has like 3000 miles on it so far I think. Nothing has exploded since July of last year. I keep waiting for the email though.  He's on ecomodder.com, under the name jyanof.

We aren't selling stuff for a couple weeks since I'm trying to send out a couple kits that people ordered. Also, the help file needs a little updating. It's not too bad, but there are several pictures where it says "now do blah blah blah, not like in this picture." hahahaha. 

Really, somebody needs to make a bunch of the power boards. My crappy HF machine in the garage can't pump them out very fast. There's actually not that much stuff that has to be done that requires fancy equipment. Alvin had it all done himself pretty much. Well, he got a power board, and control board but that's about it I think.

Oh, I'm getting close to being done with a new Synchronous rectification controller, which I think will do 1000 amps for short periods of time, and be very efficient. My crappy 6.7" motor would explode if I tried to test it though.


----------



## valerun (Nov 12, 2010)

jackbauer said:


> I'm working on an igbt option with the potential for 300v 1000amps if i don't die trying


Hi jackbauer - bump for a 300v 1000A controller. Do you have any updates on your tests? Sorry if they are reported elsewhere on this site.

Thanks!
Valery


----------



## jackbauer (Jan 12, 2008)

I've not actually done much on this but Paul has a 1000A design in progress over on ecomodder.


----------



## jorge1124 (Jul 8, 2014)

Hello,

I can't find Paul and Sabrina Page . I'm looking to buy a cougar controller kit
Anyone knows where can I buy it?

Thanks


----------



## zsnemeth (Jan 4, 2012)

Hi,

https://pandspowerelectronics.ecwid.com/ this is the new site.


----------



## akseminole (Jan 5, 2014)

How plug and play is the 300v 1,000 amp DC controller? Also, can you use a high voltage pack with voltage limiting to the motor?

It would be interesting to know what the specifications are for the AC controllers as well.


----------



## MPaulHolmes (Feb 23, 2008)

I would say it's pretty plug and play. YOu can ask Duncan on here about it. I have a new board now, and I am in the process of populating it over the next couple days, and would like to port over the old software so I can incorporate all the nice features of the AC controller. For example, the auto tuning of the PI loop. That should give a snappier launch, although it's not too bad how Duncan has it. If you wanted to be minimalist, you could just wire it up and drive away, and it would work fine. You could limit max PWM duty to whatever you wanted (which is limiting the voltage that the motor would see). Well, it would still be, say, 0 to battery_pack, but just not at 100% max duty. The thing I think is neat is, you could just remove the DC board, and put on an AC board, and all of a sudden you have a 200kW AC inverter instead. The power section is identical for both. The only difference is, you connect all 3 of the "phases" together for the DC controller.


----------



## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

We will see about the launch at our annual 1/8th mile drags on Sunday - If I can "keep it on the Island"!

IMHO a motor voltage limit is unnecessary as you can't over-volt one of these motors unless you also over rev and over current it

It's a great unit - bit on the big side! - I had to change my old NACA duct for a nostril duct because the controller ended up where the NACA duct was


----------

