# EEstor to rise from the dead?



## dcb (Dec 5, 2009)

did you read this section?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EEStor#Skepticism_from_experts_and_lack_of_demonstrated_claims


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## PhantomPholly (Aug 20, 2008)

dcb said:


> did you read this section?
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EEStor#Skepticism_from_experts_and_lack_of_demonstrated_claims


Yes I did. I even reviewed the page history. The skepticism is still valid; however, the latest updates indicate a successfully documented 3rd-party trial of an actual product (a super capacitor with energy density similar to lead acid - orders of magnitude less than their original claim for a battery but still impressive for a capacitor) and so for perhaps the first time there is some actual "there there."

I also went back to the old Barium Titinate blog, the fellow hung it up in 2015. Hahaha! Well, if they succeed he will be rich because he hung onto his stock. Won't he be surprised?

I'm not saying they will succeed, only that there is new information and that it is still possible they will develop a viable capacitor product from the original research.


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## dcb (Dec 5, 2009)

I can't put much faith in a nameless third party, aka "my mom says I'm handsome!".

It seems they certified the time constant (R*C) and " using new materials that provided high capacitance and high resistance simultaneously." and some strange behavior where you don't get lower resistance with more plates but more capacitance (the exact opposite of what you want).

I don't really see how it adds up to a better traction capacitor though. Maybe some really low draw application would benefit? 

I don't see getting excited over it.

edit: and I'm loathe to feed the supercapacitor sycophants, which is exactly what will happen, with no real basis for it.


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## PhantomPholly (Aug 20, 2008)

Well I'm not buying any stock. The resistance thing means (I think) that it can discharge over a longer period of time, which if I understand correctly is difficult for a typical capacitor. That gives it some of the attributes of a battery and a capacitor, which is better for grid or other storage while retaining the million-cycle plus advantages of a capacitor (cheaper total cost of ownership when it effectively never wears out). If it's cheap (undetermined) it could be awesome for grid storage.

While I'm not taking a stand for or against, it would be nice to see a startup that DOESN'T fail for a change. Just because they don't end up with what they thought they would doesn't make them "bad," and we can all benefit by new developments.


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## dcb (Dec 5, 2009)

problem here is they aren't giving useful information, which unfortunately is the telltale sign of a scam (how many people don't know the difference between volts and power and spend their lives believing in overunity?!?). Or perhaps the application isn't really a good fit for "EV News"? Even then if it can only handle low charge/discharge applications (resistance=heat), then self discharge might very well kill it.

There just isn't enough info to compare it even to an SLA, since no indication of power density or self discharge is present that I noticed. The resistance alone might make peukert effect look like your friend.

I guess presenting it as "EV News" is the main problem, they might be on to something for some applications, but that is terribly speculative.


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## PhantomPholly (Aug 20, 2008)

dcb said:


> problem here is they aren't giving useful information, which unfortunately is the telltale sign of a scam (how many people don't know the difference between volts and power and spend their lives believing in overunity?!?). Or perhaps the application isn't really a good fit for "EV News"? Even then if it can only handle low charge/discharge applications (resistance=heat), then self discharge might very well kill it.
> 
> There just isn't enough info to compare it even to an SLA, since no indication of power density or self discharge is present that I noticed. The resistance alone might make peukert effect look like your friend.
> 
> I guess presenting it as "EV News" is the main problem, they might be on to something for some applications, but that is terribly speculative.


I did not feel like it was as short on details as previous EEStor stories. Here is what I read - whether it is true needs further verification, but it seems sufficient for a back of the napkin evaluation:



They are classifying it as a super capacitor. That alone indicates very rapid charge - discharge capacity.
They stated energy density to be "about equal to lead acid batteries." That is pretty specific, if disappointing as a battery. Since the material is not as heavy as lead, we can expect volume to be larger than lead acid batteries, but for stationary applications that probably would not be much of an issue.
They stated a million charge cycles. They would have to have been able to do that in a reasonably short time in order to have fit that into a test schedule - again lending credence to high power density.
They said that no heating was noted in testing. If they tested 1,000,000 cycles, that is a good indication that heating is not an issue
Again, all of this needs more verification. But if true, I'd say it is certainly news-worthy.


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## Sunking (Aug 10, 2009)

PhantomPholly said:


> The resistance thing means (I think) that it can discharge over a longer period of time, which if I understand correctly is difficult for a typical capacitor.


Not difficult at all for any capacitor. 

A capacitor, any capacity, is either charge or discharged in 5 Time Constants. A Time Constant is just the number of seconds. 

OK a Time Constant = R x C, where R is resistance in Ohms, and C is capacitance in Farads. 

So if you have say a 100 Ohm Resistor and a .0001 farad capacitor TC = .01 seconds, so it would take 5 x .01 = .05 seconds to either charge or discharge the capacitor. 

Capacitors have several pitfalls. A super cap is typically 2.5 volts, and to get a working voltage requires wiring them in series. Of course when you do you loose capacitance. So if you series 5-1 Farad capacitors you now have a .2 Farad capacitor. 

If you have say a Controller that can only work with a voltage range of say 100 to 200 volts input, and charge up a capacitor to 200 volts, only 50% of its capacity is useable. 

Lastly EEstore has been a fraud form the start


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## dcb (Dec 5, 2009)

Phantom, I don't know why you are being so sloppy, but it isn't a good look.

The esr is in the kilo-ohm range and the capacitance is in the nano-farad range, indeed they even said the time constant is longer (partially because of the high resistance), why are you making something out of nothing?

how long would it take you to charge and discharge a 1nF cap a million times?!? Not long, even with that ESR.

http://www.eestorcorp.com/mra-report_march-24-2017.html


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## PhantomPholly (Aug 20, 2008)

Sunking said:


> Not difficult at all for any capacitor.
> 
> A capacitor, any capacity, is either charge or discharged in 5 Time Constants. A Time Constant is just the number of seconds.


I did not know that - I always thought that capacitors MUST discharge almost all at once. That leaves me confused about what makes something a capacitor vs a battery?



> Lastly EEstore has been a fraud form the start


That could well be. I only brought this up because it seems they may actually salvage something from their research, which raises the possibility they were merely over-optimistic from the start. And of course it could be both - this is an imperfect world.


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## PhantomPholly (Aug 20, 2008)

dcb said:


> Phantom, I don't know why you are being so sloppy, but it isn't a good look.
> 
> The esr is in the kilo-ohm range and the capacitance is in the nano-farad range, indeed they even said the time constant is longer (partially because of the high resistance), why are you making something out of nothing?
> 
> ...


I'm really not certain what your complaint is. Is it that I am not an expert on capacitors? Too bad. I brought this article up because it sounds like they may salvage something worthwhile from the research that they have done. The idea of a product with the "good" characteristics of a capacitor combined with the energy density of lead acid batteries sounds worthwhile, even if I'm not about to put my money into their company. If they can build it cheaply enough, they may well find a successful niche for it. I can easily see where rapidly responding "batteries" that can cycle over a million times could provide great value in grid leveling. If they are durable and never wear out and can be recharged in a few minutes, they might also be great for golf carts and riding mowers. Good products are good for everyone, even if they aren't the "silver bullet" for EVs.


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## Karter2 (Nov 17, 2011)

You dont need rapid charge or discharge rates for grid storage/balancing.
What you do need though, is a fairly level voltage profile, good energy density and low cost.
Compact size would also be required for domestic storage (solar balance)


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## dcb (Dec 5, 2009)

PhantomPholly said:


> I'm really not certain what your complaint is.


this isn't newsworthy for this forum, in fact it is of dubious value in any forum. Plus it has a lot of red flags.



PhantomPholly said:


> Is it that I am not an expert on capacitors? Too bad.


Ok, fair enough, this smells like a shit high ESR capacitor is all you need to know then. (and stationary doesn't *really* care about energy density, not like a vehicle).



PhantomPholly said:


> The idea of a product with the "good" characteristics of a capacitor combined with the energy density of lead acid batteries sounds worthwhile,


You got sloppy again, you just said you don't know caps, and are making a comparison to PB again (even after I posted a link to test results), then add this speculative crap about "good" and etc. Yes, a good capacitor is good, this apparently isn't one of those. If you don't know what you are talking about, why are you still talking?!? It is starting to smell like agenda in here.


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## PhantomPholly (Aug 20, 2008)

Karter2 said:


> You dont need rapid charge or discharge rates for grid storage/balancing.


Can't hurt for fast reaction?



> What you do need though, is a fairly level voltage profile, good energy density and low cost.


I'm not certain that is true. Energy density is most certainly not needed - lots of open fields. Voltage depends, as previously pointed out, on the operating range of the controller. If narrow, it simply means some capacity is never used unless clever switching schemes are used to maintain voltage. Price, on the other hand, is most certainly paramount.



> Compact size would also be required for domestic storage (solar balance)


Yes / no. If you can put it in an attic, size may be nearly irrelevant.


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## PhantomPholly (Aug 20, 2008)

dcb said:


> this isn't newsworthy for this forum, in fact it is of dubious value in any forum. Plus it has a lot of red flags.


That is your opinion. You don't have to read things I post. I'd say 30% better performance for the same cost is newsworthy.



> You got sloppy again, you just said you don't know caps, and are making a comparison to PB again (even after I posted a link to test results), then add this speculative crap about "good" and etc. Yes, a good capacitor is good, this apparently isn't one of those.


Really? Can you point to another form of capacitor that has the energy density of lead acid batteries? Last I heard, the best supercaps were on the order of 5-10% of lead acid energy density - which is why all of the folks here who are much more informed than either you or I are on these subjects always tell people to get more batteries rather than waste time with caps.



> If you don't know what you are talking about, why are you still talking?!?


That statement once again places you in violation of forum policies against trolling, which seems to be a habit with you. If you aren't interested, don't read about it.


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## dcb (Dec 5, 2009)

PhantomPholly said:


> trolling, which seems to be a habit with you.


Ironic that you would opt for character assassination, when you have been murdering your own credibility?!?


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