# Brammo-enertia PMS120 motor



## major (Apr 4, 2008)

akseminole said:


> I bought one of these from eBay and am wondering if it is an BLDC or BLAC motor, if AC, does this mean that I need an AC controller like a curtis, sevcon, sigma, kelly?


From the link:



> -
> EV PERM Electric AC PMS {=AC PM Synchronous}
> Brushless, Air Cooled Motors
> - Used in the Brammo Enertia
> ...


Curtis only supports Induction motors, to my knowledge. Sevcons are nearly impossible to tune. Kelly is always a crap shoot. Others?


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## JCC (Mar 19, 2015)

The PMSM, or PMAC, is a permanent magnet brushless AC motor. The manufacturer is Heinzmann, and they also make a liquid cooled version of that motor. Basic information from the manufacturer can be found here:

http://www.heinzmann.com/en/electric-motors-and-hybrid-drives/pancake/synchronous-motor

Heinzmann lists four suitable traction controllers that can drive their motors. That info is here:

http://www.heinzmann.com/en/electric-motors-and-hybrid-drives/motor-controller

For your application, you're probably interested in either the Sevcon Gen 4 or Sigmadrive PMS.

Curtis may not work well because it's generally for induction motors. From the information I gathered in their download section, that motor is probably best with the Sevcon. That info was found here:

http://www.heinzmann.com/en/download/finish/1000/2199


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## akseminole (Jan 5, 2014)

They had Sigma drive controllers, but by the time I got paid they were all out of them. 

Thank you for the information guys. 

So a Sigma or Sevcon seems to be the prognosis?

As a hypothetical question, would a pmsm motor Run on a BLDC controller or would it damage the motor or controller? From the research I've done today, it seems that BLDC motors are primarily run on a trapezoidal signal where the PMSM seem to be run on a sinusoidal signal.

Would a BLDC controller which outputs a sinusoidal signal run a PMSM motor?


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

Maybe. It depends on the particulars. A lot to do with the feedback, ie. halls, resolver, etc. Or sensorless. Or how skilled you are at programming the control. Or the performance you're willing to suffer. Or might not work at all.


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## frodus (Apr 12, 2008)

If that really is the one used in the enertia, it can't be used with a Sevcon nor Curtis.

The only controller that will work for the encoder that is used on this motor is a Sigmadrive. The PMS120 that Brammo used has a SSI encoder (Synchronous Serial Interface). You may be able to replace it though.


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## Hippie Djohn (Oct 24, 2011)

I know that Curtis supports PMAC with a special OS. 
So if it is a PMAC synchronous motor, it can be done.


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## frodus (Apr 12, 2008)

Still, the problem is not the type of motor, but rather the type of encoder. They're a serial type, not the type of encoder that Curtis or Sevcon is able to be programmed for.

I just don't know what would be involved to replace it. Maybe Perm Motor knows or can supply you with the correct encoder.


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## frodus (Apr 12, 2008)

Hippie Djohn said:


> I know that Curtis supports PMAC with a special OS.
> So if it is a PMAC synchronous motor, it can be done.


So do they have to use an AB encoder? or are those encoder inputs able to be set for Sine/Cos and Hall effect?


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## Hippie Djohn (Oct 24, 2011)

frodus said:


> So do they have to use an AB encoder? or are those encoder inputs able to be set for Sine/Cos and Hall effect?


I don't know, never tried it. 
I asked Curtis if they had OS for PMAC and they said yes. That's how far I got


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## SPORTIVA (Sep 25, 2015)

frodus said:


> If that really is the one used in the enertia, it can't be used with a Sevcon nor Curtis.
> 
> The only controller that will work for the encoder that is used on this motor is a Sigmadrive. The PMS120 that Brammo used has a SSI encoder (Synchronous Serial Interface). You may be able to replace it though.


Are you 100% sure of this? As I bought a PMS120 from a Enerita bike and also a SEVCON GEN4 + IXXAT interface for my project.

The guys on this topic are suggesting that the Enerita is using a SEVCON


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## SPORTIVA (Sep 25, 2015)

SPORTIVA said:


> The guys on this topic are suggesting that the Enerita is using a SEVCON


It seams I forgot to paste the URL to the topic on the forum 

http://electricmotorcycleforum.com/boards/index.php?topic=3409.0


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## frodus (Apr 12, 2008)

As they said, make sure the encoder is right for the sevcon. If these are excess stock from brammo, they're not sin/cos.


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## Hippie Djohn (Oct 24, 2011)

frodus said:


> So do they have to use an AB encoder? or are those encoder inputs able to be set for Sine/Cos and Hall effect?


I have the Curtis OS for PMAC/ BLDC now.
It uses COS/SIN sensor.


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## frodus (Apr 12, 2008)

Im just saying to make sure the motor has the same encoder style, regardless of the brand. From the motors that were excess stock from Brammo, they were not sin/cos.


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## SPORTIVA (Sep 25, 2015)

How can I check what type of encoder is in my motor? Here is a photo of the encoder from my PMS120.

BTW, I had a chat with a guy who used to own a Brammo Enertia and he said that his Enerita (first series 3.1kWh battery) had a SEVCON GEN4 controller.


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## frodus (Apr 12, 2008)

Then call Brammo or Heinzman.

You have two people, me and someone else, that say two different things. Only way to confirm is to speak to the source (Brammo). I do know the Brammo guys, and thought about buying one of these original Enertia motors a while back. I had long talks to Brammo about the encoder, and the controller inside, which was a Sigmadrive.


The Enertia Plus (not the original Enertia) might have a Sevcon, but it would need to be a different encoder. The excess stock PM120's on ebay, afaik, were the older motors. 


In the end, I'm just saying, you need to check into these things. The motor will work, but the encoder may need replacing to work with Sevcon or the Curtis.


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## coleasterling (Feb 29, 2012)

I don't know about for your specific motor but in general, Travis is correct. The vast majority of Enertia motors for sale on the used market are the first gen ones and they do, in fact, have non-standard encoders. They really aren't worth messing with unless you're willing to change the encoder yourself (which actually wouldn't be that difficult on these).


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## SPORTIVA (Sep 25, 2015)

frodus said:


> Then call Brammo or Heinzman.



So I'm gonna do.


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## bigmotherwhale (Apr 15, 2011)

over on endless sphere they are building custom lebowski controllers, these can run sensorless (FOC) might be worth a look.

I know this is a bad idea, but the kind of voltage and current that motor runs at is the same as RC hobby ESC's 
some of the more expensive junk should be capable of running it 

what are you planning on using it for?


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## SPORTIVA (Sep 25, 2015)

I'm converting a motorcycle to electric drive. BTW, I already got a SEVCON GEN 4 controller.


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## coleasterling (Feb 29, 2012)

Pending what Heinzmann says, the best option may be to fit a new encoder...Or go with a different motor. I only bought the PM120's I had because they were CHEAP. If you have to pay to have someone else fit an encoder, it probably isn't worth it at that point. These things are only rated at 12hp peak, air-cooled.


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## SPORTIVA (Sep 25, 2015)

I'm an electronic technician so I could change the encoder myself if needed and if I can get hold of a right one for replacement. I'm quite aware of the performance figures of the motor and it is in the range for my project.
I have send an email with the details of the motor that I have to heinzmann. Hopefully they'll reply shortly with useful info.


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## SPORTIVA (Sep 25, 2015)

Got a reply from heinzmann, ad they said it is a custom motor and that they can't help me ...

Never the less I have figure it out myself by comparing the wiring from the motor with the motor documentation I found on heinzmann web site.










Marking on encoder PCB:

RLS
RMB28
HR2


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## akseminole (Jan 5, 2014)

SPORTIVA said:


> Got a reply from heinzmann, ad they said it is a custom motor and that they can't help me ...
> 
> Never the less I have figure it out myself by comparing the wiring from the motor with the motor documentation I found on heinzmann web site.
> 
> ...


I am wondering if you ever got your motor to run on the different controller?


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## SPORTIVA (Sep 25, 2015)

Not yet. Ill post the results soon.


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## blisspacket (Mar 17, 2009)

I've had positive results with the folks at 
EVS-Inmotion
to get my PMS 120 5.5kW motor up and running.
I also tried a Sevcon, fastened cooling blocks to the back, and thus could not return THAT piece of shit.
The EVS-Inmotion folk are dealing with Danaher and Kollmorgen controllers which were configured to the Heinzmann motors I spec. above.


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## Archer321 (Jul 28, 2016)

I have some new ACD 4805 controllers designed to go with PMS 126 motors if anyone needs one...
Or I might be interested in your motor if you decide to bail on it...
Just sayin...


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## blisspacket (Mar 17, 2009)

my understanding is the 4805 designation means 48 volts, 05 means 50 amps. Is that correct, anybody??


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## Archer321 (Jul 28, 2016)

blisspacket said:


> my understanding is the 4805 designation means 48 volts, 05 means 50 amps. Is that correct, anybody??


According to the information here...
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sou...f2wnsNfVXbiRS8DGg&sig2=78rgg_cZKrf6EuhO6pZ5Jw
It is 48v 175amps max 2 min. 58 amps for 1 hr.
Admittedly it isn't much, but if that's all you need...
I use mine in an Electrathon car. It's perfectly suited for that. It'll run on 24-48V. I run 36V.


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