# Would you buy batteries from China?



## rwaudio (May 22, 2008)

I've already bought two batches of A123 20AH cells from China, but dealing with someone that spoke better English and understood our concerns here would make things a bit easier and more comfortable.

I think at the moment the popular cells are these A123 20ah, and people also like the Headway 8/10/16Ah cells as well. I would go for option B since I'm in Canada, but it's not really any different than shipping to the USA.

For air shipping it can be tricky, there are steep discounts for businesses that do a certain amount of volume, there are steeper discounts for companies that fill in the less used shipping methods. In my day job I have an 80-90% discount on shipping skids 2 day air to anywhere in the USA (from Canada) just because the planes weren't full in that direction. In my dealings with China, I have been quoted anywhere from $149 to $550 for shipping on 100 cells to Canada. Part of that is probably because the first one is a bigger trading company and has better discounts on shipping. The second is a small company without the leverage.

My recommendation is that you research the shipping side first, and give people an idea of what the shipping costs might be. Try all the carriers, meet with the reps, that alone can get you something here so it might work there too.

You also need to explain the concept of brokerage/duty, in Canada it's something that most of us are familiar with and accepted like death and taxes. Many of my American friends aren't so use to this because they seldom buy anything from outside the country, or if they do it's below the $200 minimum that will arrive typically without extra charges.

Hope that helps.


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## ga2500ev (Apr 20, 2008)

I have not purchased any yet, but I'm starting to look.

The ideal cell is the A123 20Ah pouch cells such as the ones you specified in your earlier post:

http://item.taobao.com/item.htm?id=13500022222

You stated the price listed is under 10 USD. Current competitors are cells such as the a123rc.com ones:

http://a123rc.com/goods-468-Excitingly+Powerful+A+123+20ah+PRISMATIC+CELLS.html

And Ebay auctions such as these:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/70P-A123-20ah-Batteries-/250927848349?pt=US_Batteries&hash=item3a6c771b9d

http://www.ebay.com/itm/72P-A123-20...956726251?pt=US_Batteries&hash=item3a6e2fbfeb

The difference between the two is that the second set has full tabs while the first has the tabs cut off just like the ones you posted in your original post. 

From a price standpoint these range from 22 to 32 USD. Jack Ricard of evtv.me states in this post:

http://jackrickard.blogspot.com/2012/02/this-week-we-continue-our-obsession-on.html

that he has seen quotes from his China supplier between $17 and $19 a cell.

My opinion is that the current magic number is 20 USD delivered per cell for cells with the tabs cut off and 25 USD per cell for perfect cells with tabs. While the latter ends up being $1.25/Ah I believe it works because that's the total delivered package price, and that unlike cells from CALB, Winston, Sinopoly, etc, they can be purchased in smaller units. The final advantage is that the pouches can be ridden hard, with a sustained 20C current draw possible. None of the hard cased packaged cells can sustain that rate. This means that small cost effective packs can be put together. The cheapest price I've seen for Winston 40 Ah cells is 43 USD + shipping which will turn out to 50 USD a cell delivered. For a 96V pack of 30 cells, it's a $1500 investment. Problem is that the max sustained current draw is 2C or 80 amps. Not enough to get the car moving. 90-100 Ahr cells are over 100 USD each. So it's now a 3000+ USD investment just to get started. Now compare to pouches. 30 cells @ 20 USD each is 600 USD delivered. You get 96V. The 20C possible draw means you can pull 400 Amps. Now the range is terrible (64 Wh/cell * 30 cells = 1920 Wh pack). It won't go more than 5 miles or so. But the point is that someone can get started and add on later. A typical useful pack will range from 150-600 cells depending on the application and range requirements. The 150 cell pack is still 3000 USD. But it does not have to be completely invested up front, which makes it real attractive to some DIY folks who are cobbling EVs together.

From what I've seen, and as you've pointed out, the biggest issue is trust. Sending hundreds or thousands of dollars abroad with the hope that untested cells will arrive in 8-12 weeks is a bit scary. Most likely a shipping combination of 1+2 or 1+3 would be the most workable. If I can send 100-150 USD and get 5 cells in my hands quickly for testing and see that they are legit, I'd be more comfortable sending those hundreds/thousands of dollars then waiting 8-12 weeks. If you (or your US based partner) have seen and tested the cells to make sure they are not at 0.8V and not punctured, then your customers will be more willing to trust a direct drop shipment.

This pouch has the structure to issue in the Lithium wave for everyone. My comparison point has always been to a typical lead acid battery, which is in each of its 3 configurations a 60 lbs, 1350 Wh, $100 block in 6,8, and 12 volt configs. Up until now Lithium has never come close in the capacity to cost ratio as 4 100 Ah cells is still between 5 and 6 times the cost. But 4 or 5 pouches can be put in the same configs, with current draws in the ballpark, at the same price point with a fraction of the capacity. It's now doable.

I hope this opportunity opens up for you. I'm willing to put up small amounts to test.

ga2500ev


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## rwaudio (May 22, 2008)

ga2500ev said:


> The ideal cell is the A123 20Ah pouch cells such as the ones you specified in your earlier post:
> 
> http://item.taobao.com/item.htm?id=13500022222
> 
> You stated the price listed is under 10 USD. Current competitors are cells such as the a123rc.com ones:


I would be cautious of the cells from this listing. Using google translate, towards the bottom it talks about the cells being soft and having a capacity in the range of 14-18Ah. I have a few cells like this and they do not perform the same as the normal cells. I have put them to use as a 12v battery to run my charger and at the low charge/discharge rates that this battery see's they are working very well. I would not put them in my main battery pack though.

I'm not sure if that is out of context for the actual product being sold as the listing is very hard to follow when translated.


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## typci (Feb 16, 2012)

For those concerned about the batteries on taobao, my first rule of conducting any business is don't sell crappy products or services. I've owned businesses before, and I don't put up with crap. If I can't get genuine products or high quality knock-offs, I'll completely drop the idea.

My electric bike mechanic, who happens to have 20 years experience in Japan as an engineer working batteries before coming back to China, already plans to order some of the batteries off taobao and put them through some serious tests. He'll let me know what's really going on with them. There may also be a huge market here in China since 99.9% of electric bikes here are still using lead acid. If we can design a stable, easy to maintain LiFeO4 setup, we're also going start something here in Xi'an.

Also, I wouldn't actually be buying the batteries off of taobao, that just adds another middle man to the equation. I just use taobao to see what products and prices are available instead of requesting a bunch of quotes. I have friends who own large import/export companies in China and have all the government contacts necessary to authorize such things. I also have contacts in Guang Dong who can set some things up for me. In China the rule of business is who you know.

Shipping can be cheap or expensive, depending on what type you do. There is a shipping method through the China post office which is insanely cheap but very slow. My last package back to the USA took two months to ship, was over 20lbs but only cost about $30. That was with me just walking into post office wanting to ship something. If I took my time, I could easily get a better price. As far as duties and such, I know nothing about it. I will look into it and provide what information I can find, but my previous experience with international companies tells me that it is ultimately the buyers responsibility since they are the ones importing. I really don't plan on shipping anywhere but the USA, and Canada if someone were to request it.

I have a wine tasting event to attend in the next couple of weeks. Most of the business people I know will be there. I plan to have the general information I need and the questions I need to ask by then. They'll be able to fill in the blanks and tell if it is possible or not.


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## Robbert (1 mo ago)

I have very good experience with Shenzhen RJ Energy (CRJ Technology), Carl is very professional and respond really quickly. My wife and I lived at first totally off grid, we have solar panels installed on roof, at first it was only grid tied, and later we decided to go for hybrid and store the excess energy in batteries. I did some research and I found RJ ENERGY Batteries very interesting! I end up with buying 8 x 11.7kwh LIFEPO4 battery from RJ ENERGY, it was total 93.6kwh, Carl helped us with the whole system design with very detailed manual. The batteries communicate with the SMA sunny island Inverter pretty smooth, we have been living with RJ batteries for 3years now, so far it all looks very good. My wife and I both are very happy with it. I am not saying buying batteries from China has no risks. but if you find a good and reliable supplier, it totally pays off.


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