# morgan 3 wheeler -electric replica



## peter3wheeler (Jun 18, 2014)

i like if someone can help to do some calculation and help me to choose the components


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## frodus (Apr 12, 2008)

http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showthread.php/want-build-ev-do-starti-6441.html


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

Hi peter,

Welcome to the forum. Interesting project. Do some searching and lurking and you can learn a lot about what you ask. Off hand, maybe take a look at HPEVS AC-50 motor & controller package or the DC WarP9 (maybe WarP7) with Soliton or Zilla controller. For the battery, your estimate is likely too small. Rely on energy. Those 40 cells total about 11.5 kWh. For 50 miles you will need to use less than 230 Wh/mile which means driving slowly without fun  Stick around and don't rush into anything. 

Regards,

major


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## peter3wheeler (Jun 18, 2014)

major said:


> Hi peter,
> 
> Welcome to the forum. Interesting project. Do some searching and lurking and you can learn a lot about what you ask. Off hand, maybe take a look at HPEVS AC-50 motor & controller package or the DC WarP9 (maybe WarP7) with Soliton or Zilla controller. For the battery, your estimate is likely too small. Rely on energy. Those 40 cells total about 11.5 kWh. For 50 miles you will need to use less than 230 Wh/mile which means driving slowly without fun  Stick around and don't rush into anything.
> 
> ...


thanks you a lot major . i have done my homework ( research at the forum ) .i was study at school electrician but i never got involved with motors ,i have read all the basics i understand how things work but i am awful in calculations i used some calculators to see how much power i need to achieve my goal .but an experienced can help more in my project than maths


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

Hi peter
My car is a 4 wheeled equivalent of your Morgan
http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forum...-dubious-device-44370p2.html?highlight=duncan

I don't think your weights are achievable - your suspension must be able to resist road loadings
Think of a sudden maneuver to avoid an accident,

My car weighs 710Kg (without me in it) - It's built a bit heavier than is totally necessary and it has a heavy motor (102Kg)

You should be able to get down to about 550Kg - but I will be surprised if you get lower


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## ken will (Dec 19, 2009)

This weighs 500 lbs.
300 lbs. for the trike and 200 lbs. of lead Acid.


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## peter3wheeler (Jun 18, 2014)

i love the drivers seat!!!


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## ken will (Dec 19, 2009)

The seat is very comfortable!
When I lay my arms on the armrests, my hands fall perfectly onto the handgrips.
It is my first try at underseat steering and it feels completely natural.


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## samwichse (Jan 28, 2012)

Great for a productive day at the office or track. That thing looks like it'll be a blast when you're done. What's the solid front axle from? Good idea for a non IRS in the home built trike because controlling lean on an IRS trike seems pretty complex to me.


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## ken will (Dec 19, 2009)

samwichse said:


> What's the solid front axle from? Good idea for a non IRS in the home built trike because controlling lean on an IRS trike seems pretty complex to me.


The axle came from Craigslist, back in the 70s someone jacked up a 69 Camero and stuck the axle under it.

Anti sway bars work with IRS, if you can get one with the right specs.
I just always a RatRod!


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## samwichse (Jan 28, 2012)

Are you going to try and ape the Morgan bathtub bodywork? Or are you going to leave it bare?


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## ken will (Dec 19, 2009)

samwichse said:


> Are you going to try and ape the Morgan bathtub bodywork? Or are you going to leave it bare?


This is just a prototype for testing dimensions, gear ratios, different battery types, etc.

I like the Morgan but (sshh don't tell anyone on this list) I have a 1000 cc Moto Guzzi that I would use for a Morgan replica.

...hhmm maybe a Morgan-Guzzi-Electric Hybrid !!


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## peter3wheeler (Jun 18, 2014)

ken will said:


> This is just a prototype for testing dimensions, gear ratios, different battery types, etc.
> 
> I like the Morgan but (sshh don't tell anyone on this list) I have a 1000 cc Moto Guzzi that I would use for a Morgan replica.
> 
> ...hhmm maybe a Morgan-Guzzi-Electric Hybrid !!


thats the most difficult part prototyping testing dimensions cause of limited space we have to fit battery, motor ,components and 2 passengers in a 40"x70" space


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## peter3wheeler (Jun 18, 2014)

i have to admit that you were right my weight calculations were incorrect. i was lost in unit conversion from metric system to imperial.so here is what i know my 
a)space frame weights :75kg/165lb (only the tubing)
b)aluminium panels for the frame:27kg/60lb 
c)fiberglass body :25kg/55lb
d)winston battery :118kg/260lb
e)passenger :90kg/200lb
f) 4 pieces a-wishbones:16kg/36lb
g) a pair of 2.5x 19" wire spoke rims with tires :15kg/33lb
h)rear motocycle aluminium 15"wheel with 155/70tire:12kg/26lb
i) 3 shocks for the suspensions 15kg/33lb
j)kostov motor 9" :45kg/100lb
k)controller (havent decide): 4.5-7 kg/10-15lb

total :435kg /960lb +10-15% (error + miscellaneous parts -mechanical,electric components etc)=480-500kg/1058-1100lb


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## peter3wheeler (Jun 18, 2014)

so if i have a car total weight of 500kg/1100 lb with pack 121.5v x 90ah and kostov 9" motor and a controller 200amp cont -500amp max what accelaration should i expect, top speed and range my gearing will be 4:1 or 5:1


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

Hi
I would expect the performance to be similar to my car
My car is heavier (710kg) but I have an 11 inch motor so more torque/amp
Using an OpenRevolt (500amp) controller
My gearing is 4.1:1

That is really good on the road - noticeably faster than my 2.4 liter Subaru Legacy

On the track - needs more power, not disgraceful but one of the slowest cars at the events I have attended so far

Top speed
The countywide limit here is 100Kph - I can definitely do 120Kph
My motor is rev limited at ~ 130Kph
My current pack voltage (40s - 130v) also limits me at about the same speed
With a 9 inch motor you may be able to go a tiny bit faster

On the weight
I had calculated 500kg for mine - the way you did
The actual weight was 710Kg
It's amazing how all of the little bits add up


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Duncan said:


> Hi
> I would expect the performance to be similar to my car
> My car is heavier (710kg) but I have an 11 inch motor so more torque/amp
> Using an OpenRevolt (500amp) controller
> ...


Will 500amps allow you to do burnouts (spin the tires) Duncan?


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

toddshotrods said:


> Will 500amps allow you to do burnouts (spin the tires) Duncan?


No - I think I will need about 750amps to spin the rear tires on clean tarmac,

I have a new "Beta" controller from Paul - and once I have finished decorating the two bedrooms I will be allowed to test it
Then I think I will be competitive on the track


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Duncan said:


> No - I think I will need about 750amps to spin the rear tires on clean tarmac,
> 
> I have a new "Beta" controller from Paul - and once I have finished decorating the two bedrooms I will be allowed to test it
> Then I think I will be competitive on the track


Thanks. 

Sorry for the highjack peter3wheeler.


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## peter3wheeler (Jun 18, 2014)

toddshotrods said:


> Thanks.
> 
> Sorry for the highjack peter2wheeler.


that's ok toddshotrod  just give back my 1 wheel that you took from my nickname


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## peter3wheeler (Jun 18, 2014)

Duncan said:


> Hi
> I would expect the performance to be similar to my car
> My car is heavier (710kg) but I have an 11 inch motor so more torque/amp
> Using an OpenRevolt (500amp) controller
> ...


i have read your thread nice job its cool ride,i also read that you had 25km range and you attending to add more battery. so how much range do you have in ,different speed (60km -100km)


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

Hi
I must update my thread
I am now using four strings of 40 cells,
I had some problems and killed some cells because they were a good bit less than the 16Ah they were sold as
Headway were very good and replaced a lot free

So I have 4 x 16Ah - which I am treating as "40Ah available"
And my voltage has gone down to 130V

at 50Kph I use about 50 amps - which will give 40Km

At 100Kph I use 200amps - which will give 20Km

My aerodynamics are - pretty damn appalling - 
a tonneau cover for the rear compartment and a wind deflector for the front may help


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## peter3wheeler (Jun 18, 2014)

Duncan said:


> Hi
> I must update my thread
> I am now using four strings of 40 cells,
> I had some problems and killed some cells because they were a good bit less than the 16Ah they were sold as
> ...


thats true aerodynamic-rolling resistance-weight ,has a big role at conversion. so if i have 120v x 90ah and be lets say 100 kg lighter than you i can have double of your range(theoretically)


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## peter3wheeler (Jun 18, 2014)

i have a question a motor effects performance-consumption? i mean you have 11"forklift motor your if you had a 11" warp or kostov ,it would make any differnce?


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## peter3wheeler (Jun 18, 2014)

i was looking in morgan 3 wheeler owners and anthousiastics forum i found a guy said that : <<
The Krazy Horse dyno is up and running although they are waiting for some sensors for tuning work .

Put my car on it today and here are the results ....

Max power 72.93 bhp @ 4985.6 rpm

Max torque 85.09 Ft/lb @ 3842.5 rpm

Their demo produced similar figures , so now we know .

Nice burger in the cafe afterwards







>>
so that the true power i need? or i missing something in equivalent between ice engine and dc motor
also i found from car and driver magazine a review of morgan test drive on track and it was interesting http://media.caranddriver.com/files/2013-morgan-3-wheeler.pdf. i couldent upload the pdf cause wall big so you can have a look from here.


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## dougingraham (Jul 26, 2011)

peter3wheeler said:


> i have a question a motor effects performance-consumption? i mean you have 11"forklift motor your if you had a 11" warp or kostov ,it would make any differnce?


Electric motors are converters of electrical energy into mechanical energy. If you operate a motor within its limits there is not much difference in the energy conversion. The differences are going to be in the rpm/torque you get out for the volts/amps you put in and the limits of a particular motor. Basically Watts in minus efficiency losses = watts out. A particular motor might give you crazy rpm but almost no torque. You can adjust this with mechanical gearing. Motors all have rpm limits on the output side, and voltage and current limits on the input side.

In the case of the three mentioned motors the differences will not be hugely significant unless you are trying to operate them at just below the breaking point. Minor gearing changes will make them fairly equivalent. The Kostov will handle the highest voltage because of the interpoles. This might result in lower torque but over a wider rpm band. The RPM limits are going to be similar for all three motors. The amp limits will depend on brushes and internal wiring and I am guessing that the WarP 11 will tolerate higher peak currents. But for a daily driver all three will probably handle similar continuous power.

With motors of this size the batteries are usually the first limiting factor and the motor controller is the second but both are important and depending on just what you want the order could be different.

Does that help?


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

peter3wheeler said:


> that's ok toddshotrod  just give back my 1 wheel that you took from my nickname


Oops! Wheel put back (typo fixed).


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## peter3wheeler (Jun 18, 2014)

dougingraham said:


> Electric motors are converters of electrical energy into mechanical energy. If you operate a motor within its limits there is not much difference in the energy conversion. The differences are going to be in the rpm/torque you get out for the volts/amps you put in and the limits of a particular motor. Basically Watts in minus efficiency losses = watts out. A particular motor might give you crazy rpm but almost no torque. You can adjust this with mechanical gearing. Motors all have rpm limits on the output side, and voltage and current limits on the input side.
> 
> In the case of the three mentioned motors the differences will not be hugely significant unless you are trying to operate them at just below the breaking point. Minor gearing changes will make them fairly equivalent. The Kostov will handle the highest voltage because of the interpoles. This might result in lower torque but over a wider rpm band. The RPM limits are going to be similar for all three motors. The amp limits will depend on brushes and internal wiring and I am guessing that the WarP 11 will tolerate higher peak currents. But for a daily driver all three will probably handle similar continuous power.
> 
> ...


yes it does thanks for the answer, i also have another one question .lets say he have two vehicles same weight (lightweight vehicle), same battery pack only difference is the motor the one has 9" and the other 11" both of them are moving with the same speed 50mile ._ which one will have better mile range _.the motor size effects range ?


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

peter3wheeler said:


> thats true aerodynamic-rolling resistance-weight ,has a big role at conversion. so if i have 120v x 90ah and be lets say 100 kg lighter than you i can have double of your range(theoretically)


Almost
your 90Ah is 72Ah - "available" (80%)
Then your lower voltage drops it to 66Ah (72 x 120/130)

So you have effectively 66Ah to my 40Ah = 1 and 2/3 times the range


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

peter3wheeler said:


> yes it does thanks for the answer, i also have another one question .lets say he have two vehicles same weight (lightweight vehicle), same battery pack only difference is the motor the one has 9" and the other 11" both of them are moving with the same speed 50mile ._ which one will have better mile range _.the motor size effects range ?


The main effect is probably the weight,
My 11 inch motor weighs 102Kg
I believe a 9 inch motor would be about 60Kg

You will need more amps to get the same torque out of the 9 inch


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## peter3wheeler (Jun 18, 2014)

for motor i havent decide yet but i am thinking kostov 9" cause is cheaper 1300$, lighter45kg, smaller, and bulgaria is beside greece so less shiping or better say no shiping at all it will bring it a friend of mine , now there are 2 options first is k9" 144v (51kw peak/[email protected]/500amp- 
24kw cont/5600rpm @40Nm/200amp)
and the second is k9"-96volt (37kw peak/[email protected]/700amp -
20.5kw cont/[email protected]/280amp
1n the first case i am limited from my battery pack 120v i still can use it but i will have same torque at lower rpm and less kw. in the second i will have the opposite same torque wider band and more kw .if my replica has asame or better specs in weight than real one which are:
authentic morgan specs measured on dyno
Max power at wheel 72.93 bhp @ 4985.6 rpm
Max torque at wheel 85.09 Ft/lb @ 3842.5 rpm
0-60mi/0-100km=7sec
1280lb/ 580kg curb weight+200lb/90kg passenger=total 1800lb/670kg
then i can have the same or better performance am i correct?


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

Peter,
You need to ignore "motor voltage"
Set your system up to the maximum you can (limited by the controller)

Here is a short explanation

Number of things
Your motor (DC) only requires a very small voltage to drive a lot of current through it when stopped (15v for 1000amps - ish)

Your controller effectively works by adjusting the motor voltage until you achieve the desired (throttle) current

So stationary you only need ~ 15v to get 1000amps
As the motor speeds up it develops "Back EMF" which must be countered

so 
Zero rpm - 15v
1000rpm - 15v + 50v (ish) = 65v
3000rpm - 15v + 150v = 165v

Your controller is a power in = power out device

15v x 1000amps (motor) = 150v x 100amps (battery
65v x 1000amps (motor) = 150v x 433amps (battery


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## peter3wheeler (Jun 18, 2014)

dear duncan first of all thanks for helping me understand .
before i join the forum i have done lot of research (conversions-technical-etc), trying to figure out how things work, maybe sometimes i was confiused ,but here is what i learned and notice.

first of all about the battery, i have read terms like c rate ,voltage sag and i understand that if i dont want to abuse and kill my battery early i have to use them properly so its wise to use ≤3c continuously ,and even they have high discharge rate 10c or 20c its wise and safer to be somewhere 5c-8c thats also nice way to avoid or minimize voltage sag and overheat the battery 

next is the voltage=rpm. i read its better to have higher voltage=rpm for conversions and that helps the correct ventilation of motor from the fan, and also higher volt=rpm move the torque rpm range ( i mean if i had 72v and the max torque was from 0-1500rpm if i double the volt to 144v the torque remains the same but in will have wider torque range from 0-2500rpm and it after that it will start dropping). and second is increasing volt you use less high current on the motor, high current= heat/losses to achive the same result.thats the way i understand that is that correct?

after that is current=torque . i like torque dc motors like torque! is that we all need to move the car from standstill .but we cant have for long period high current in the motor cause it will melt the armature=bad for the motor and for pocket. it that correct?

so i made my pack according that thoughts the space i have available in my project and other factors like center of gravity, weight distribution, cause before i build i have to be sure for my choices . i had 2 options one was 121.6v x 90ah 114kg-11kw the other was 70.5 v x 160ah 123kg-11.3kw and i choose the first. it was wrong?

as for the controller for the first pack i would use one 600amp max and 250 cont ,and for the second one 400cont 1000 max .that would be my system set up to the maximum i can (limited by the controller).all that just to be safe for motor and battery pack. is my thought wrong?


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## dougingraham (Jul 26, 2011)

peter3wheeler said:


> first of all about the battery, i have read terms like c rate ,voltage sag and i understand that if i dont want to abuse and kill my battery early i have to use them properly so its wise to use ≤3c continuously ,and even they have high discharge rate 10c or 20c its wise and safer to be somewhere 5c-8c thats also nice way to avoid or minimize voltage sag and overheat the battery


Yes, use the battery within its limitations if you want top performance and long life. Sometimes knowing those limitations is difficult. The manufacturers want to sell their product and will sometimes push the limits on the spec sheet knowing that few people will test those limits. The other side is knowing what kind of load you will be placing on the battery. This can be a complicated by the motor amps vs the battery amps issue.



peter3wheeler said:


> next is the voltage=rpm. i read its better to have higher voltage=rpm for conversions and that helps the correct ventilation of motor from the fan, and also higher volt=rpm move the torque rpm range ( i mean if i had 72v and the max torque was from 0-1500rpm if i double the volt to 144v the torque remains the same but in will have wider torque range from 0-2500rpm and it after that it will start dropping). and second is increasing volt you use less high current on the motor, high current= heat/losses to achive the same result.thats the way i understand that is that correct?


Generally you want to run the voltage at least high enough that the motor never sees the voltage sag. I used to say to run the voltage as high as the motor control will allow. While this will work it creates a point of stress in the motor controller. With the Zilla for example the controller is derated amp wise at the highest voltages allowed. I believe the Soliton also does this. Unless you have no choice it is probably better to not push the controls right to the limit as far as voltage is concerned. Example would be that the Soliton can operate up to 340 volts. Run it at 300 instead. Your typical series DC motor won't know the difference.

Running the motor voltage up does not use less high current on the motor. All it does is increase the Torque band and increase the peak power. The motor will heat mostly due to the current flowing and follows the formula I^2 * R where I is the motor current and R is the resistance of all the stuff in the motor wiring. The losses in these motors are mostly resistive in nature and are called copper losses. At higher RPM you also see some other losses but for a street car normally those are not as significant.



peter3wheeler said:


> after that is current=torque . i like torque dc motors like torque! is that we all need to move the car from standstill .but we cant have for long period high current in the motor cause it will melt the armature=bad for the motor and for pocket. it that correct?


That is correct.



peter3wheeler said:


> i had 2 options one was 121.6v x 90ah 114kg-11kw the other was 70.5 v x 160ah 123kg-11.3kw and i choose the first. it was wrong?


It depends on the current you need to take out of the battery. I would still consider the 121.6v to be low voltage. If you can do 8C with both batteries the peak power on the 90ah pack will be around 66 kw and the other one will be 68 kw. But the 90 ah pack will put out 720 battery amps which you can probably use with the motor and the 160 ah pack only produces this peak power level at 1280 amps which is probably more than your motor controller will do and more than the motor will handle. If the motor/controller limit is 1000 amps then the 160 ah pack will limit you to around 56 kw max.




peter3wheeler said:


> as for the controller for the first pack i would use one 600amp max and 250 cont ,and for the second one 400cont 1000 max .that would be my system set up to the maximum i can (limited by the controller).all that just to be safe for motor and battery pack. is my thought wrong?


I would use the 1000 amp controller for both setups. You probably don't want the controller to be the limiting factor. 600 amps * 121.6 volts = 73kw. 1000 amps times 70.5 volts = 70.5 kw. 121.6 volts * 1000 amps = 121.6 kw. You can always turn it down. You can't turn it up if there is a hard limit. Need more power then add a few more cells.

Best wishes on your interesting project!


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## peter3wheeler (Jun 18, 2014)

as for the voltage the best i can do for the moment after redesign the pack space is 40 battery from 38 .
so from 121v go to 128v, hmm... there is a small possibility to add 4 more 90ah battery so to reach 44(140v) that will be the max... i will see that . 
i have tryed all the possible combinations with battery to find the best in v/ah/kw/ and give me better range .result was 208v x 40ah=8.3kw ,163v x 60ah=9.8 kw , 70v x 160ah=11.2kw ,128v x 90ah=11.5kw (at the end if i manage another 4 i will have 140v x 90ah=12.6kw) . as for the controller solitron jr, zilla are good but double money from kelly i looking at these KDH14800D,24-156V,[email protected]$ and KDH14100D,24-156V,[email protected]$. whats your opinion? i am considering the first one in combination with the kostov9". whats your opinion about these controllers combined with kostov9" 144v kelly controller are reliable and good at programming are they worth?


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## dougingraham (Jul 26, 2011)

As for pack sizes it seems like you have tried a lot of combinations. My own preference is towards higher voltage as it tends to be more flexible. But my goals might differ from yours. And goals matter particularly when it comes to cost to meet them. If all you are looking for is an interesting vehicle to casually drive around in on weekends that is very different than making a daily driver or a track day car.

I don't have any experience with the Kostov motors or the Kelly controllers so I will leave comments on those products to others.


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## peter3wheeler (Jun 18, 2014)

dougingraham said:


> As for pack sizes it seems like you have tried a lot of combinations. My own preference is towards higher voltage as it tends to be more flexible. But my goals might differ from yours. And goals matter particularly when it comes to cost to meet them. If all you are looking for is an interesting vehicle to casually drive around in on weekends that is very different than making a daily driver or a track day car.
> 
> I don't have any experience with the Kostov motors or the Kelly controllers so I will leave comments on those products to others.


basically i will use is it for daily drive to go and return from my work that is 16km/10mil round trip, flat road ,city drive . but once a week i like visit my father need to cover distance 65km/40mil round trip 50% highway flat road(so 45-50mil max could be nice range easy for go and return work and charge every 3 days and also good for making a bigger walk but if i need to sacrifice something would be range i can live with 35mil ) . i will not use it in track so i dont need top speed,110km/h-70mil/h max it will be ok . but for sure i would like to have nice 0-60mil acceleration around 7 sec that would be great for traffic light race and also power for passing another car (city drive conditions-need flexibility).as for the cost if i can cover that needs with lower budget (battery pack-controller- etc) i will take it. its not bad to save some money


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## peter3wheeler (Jun 18, 2014)

has anyone tried this calculator? http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showthread.php/yes-another-ev-calculator-45278.html


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## JP75 (Jan 31, 2017)

Hi Peter

A really interesting project. Have you models of the body work for the vehicle? Is it close to the Morgan dimensions?

Jp


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