# Good looking 200 hp AC motor



## CroDriver (Jan 8, 2009)

The ME-400-416 is a 150 KW (200 HP) 400 HZ electric motor designed for heavy duty applications such as electric automobiles.
 This unit requires a generator or invertors of 150 Kilowatts of capacity or more to run at full power.

SPECIFICATIONS



 200 Horsepower 
 400 Volts 
 300 Amps:
12,000 RPM
85 Pounds

 http://www.400hertz.net/Products/ME-400-200-416.htm


May be Etischer's controller could be modified to run this motor...?  

This would be a great solution for DIY-ers


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## engineer_Bill (Jun 24, 2008)

Those are some cool motors. I wonder if they know where you could get a controller?


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## aeroscott (Jan 5, 2008)

We were junking out 400 cps military ground power generators a few years ago. they are incredible units . the best of everything goes into them . Later airborne units are oil cooled .


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## dreamer (Feb 28, 2009)

Did you get a quotation ?


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## 44depot (Jun 19, 2009)

Hi, if you even can buy that motor in normal price, then the inverter will cost 10k$, and it weight is about 80kg

here is an example:
1500HFU model


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## samborambo (Aug 27, 2008)

44depot said:


> Hi, if you even can buy that motor in normal price, then the inverter will cost 10k$, and it weight is about 80kg
> 
> here is an example:
> 1500HFU model


Still worth investigating the cost of the motors. There's quite a few VSDs for the DIY market "just around the corner". The Tumanako Project will turn out a controller for less than half that price.

Sam.


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

44depot said:


> Hi, if you even can buy that motor in normal price, then the inverter will cost 10k$, and it weight is about 80kg
> 
> here is an example:
> 1500HFU model


Hey 44,

Even that won't do the job. It is 400 V class, meaning 460 V ac. And I don't see provisions for closed loop flux vector drive, so no real torque control. Chances are if you could find a suitable drive, it'd cost twice as much.

Regards,

major


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## samborambo (Aug 27, 2008)

major said:


> Hey 44,
> 
> Even that won't do the job. It is 400 V class, meaning 460 V ac. And I don't see provisions for closed loop flux vector drive, so no real torque control. Chances are if you could find a suitable drive, it'd cost twice as much.
> 
> ...


Where did you get 460VAC from? The inverter supports 380V-480VAC.

You're right about the inverter - not particularly smart. Doesn't even have a torque mode.

Sam.


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## tj4fa (May 25, 2008)

Sorry if I'm jumping this thread but since you're talking 400Hz motor stuff, I figured I'd ask...

Could either one of these AC Aircraft Generators be used as an EV motor? I plan to use one of them as a generator rectifying it to DC for a range extender. Each weighs about 82 lbs.

Thanks in advance.  

First One:
Old style 1950's era with brushes:
30KVA (25Kw) 3Ph 380-800Hz 120/208VAC




























Second One:
New style (Boeing 737) without brushes:
40KVA (30kW) 3Ph 380-420Hz 120/208VAC 111Amps


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## samborambo (Aug 27, 2008)

They look like slip ring alternators. They can function like a synchronous motor (eg: PMSM or BLDC) but need a DC current supplied to the brushes to set up the field. You could try simply shorting the brush contacts (the rotor winding) together and running it as an induction motor but I think the rotor impedance would be too high. Do a load test on the motor hooked up to a 208V source with the rotor winding shorted. Be aware that the rotor temperature may increase rapidly with the higher impedance. Worth a try though.

Sam.


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## tj4fa (May 25, 2008)

samborambo said:


> They look like slip ring alternators. They can function like a synchronous motor (eg: PMSM or BLDC) but need a DC current supplied to the brushes to set up the field. You could try simply shorting the brush contacts (the rotor winding) together and running it as an induction motor but I think the rotor impedance would be too high. Do a load test on the motor hooked up to a 208V source with the rotor winding shorted. Be aware that the rotor temperature may increase rapidly with the higher impedance. Worth a try though.
> 
> Sam.


Ok thanks Sam!


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## CroDriver (Jan 8, 2009)

This aircraft generator looks great. I could use this for my motorcycle engine-generator range extender.


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

samborambo said:


> Where did you get 460VAC from? The inverter supports 380V-480VAC.


Yeah Sam,

But the motor looks like ACP. Which is the 230 VAC motor. Spec for motor says 400 V, but I think that is the maximum DC voltage input to the inverter, not the AC voltage class. Might be wrong there, just judging from appearance. Academic anyway as I think I saw where these motors are not available for sale.

Regards,

major


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## Jokerzwild (Jun 11, 2009)

Just for the fun of it I shot them an e-mail regarding that item and a couple more they have.

There 200hp motor is $20,000
There 40hp 12000rpm motor is $5000, I believe you can add a gearbox 2 it if you wish. They also have water cooled units.


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## CroDriver (Jan 8, 2009)

Jokerzwild said:


> There 200hp motor is $20,000




And there goes our AC opportunity down the toilet...


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## Jokerzwild (Jun 11, 2009)

People are proud of there pre WW2 technology!


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## tj4fa (May 25, 2008)

CroDriver said:


> This aircraft generator looks great. I could use this for my motorcycle engine-generator range extender.


The one that was to support a Boeing 737 cost me around $700- shipped off eBay.

The 1950's era one with the brushes (NIB) cost me $150- plus shipping of around $100- 
The seller who I bought it from a few months ago off Craigslist may have a couple more.

I couldn't pass them up. 

Although these are aircraft generator heads and may or may not work as a drive-motor, they were a far cry from $20K+.


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## samborambo (Aug 27, 2008)

tj4fa said:


> The one that was to support a Boeing 737 cost me around $700- shipped off eBay.
> 
> The 1950's era one with the brushes (NIB) cost me $150- plus shipping of around $100-
> The seller who I bought it from a few months ago off Craigslist may have a couple more.
> ...


I think you got a bargain with the 737 APU alternator. See if you can get hold of the datasheet or details on the APU voltage regulator. I doubt you'll find any motor controller off-the-shelf that will suit this alternator. 

Find out the DC voltage/current range for the rotor and use a VSD that is programmed for synchronous motors (BLDC/PMSM). You'll also need a constant current DC PWM regulator to supply the rotor.

Sam.


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## tj4fa (May 25, 2008)

samborambo said:


> I think you got a bargain with the 737 APU alternator. See if you can get hold of the datasheet or details on the APU voltage regulator. I doubt you'll find any motor controller off-the-shelf that will suit this alternator.
> 
> Find out the DC voltage/current range for the rotor and use a VSD that is programmed for synchronous motors (BLDC/PMSM). You'll also need a constant current DC PWM regulator to supply the rotor.
> 
> Sam.


Thanks Sam 

I bought two of these aircraft voltage regulators that might work I bought for a total of $45- off eBay. A friend at work said the Aircraft Ground Power units have basically the same generators and components and I have this schematic for a ground power unit (but it's greek to me ). 

He said if I could figure out what pins where what, I might be able to use one.

The simpler the better so I'm open to any option to get this working.




























I also bought this thing that looked like it would cross to the same Generator head (another $45-).










Generator head ID plate


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## samborambo (Aug 27, 2008)

tj4fa,

There's some clues in the bottom left hand corner of the schematic but I can't say for sure. The schematic doesn't show any iron core relationships. Is that dotted box section the motor? It looks like a brushless alternator - no slip rings. F2-F1 is a field winding. G1 three phase winding, the rectifier and the armature coil are all spinning on the rotor. T1, T2, T3 are the stator windings. Are you sure this schematic is for the same alternator? Your alternator definitely has slip rings with brushes (some form of conductive contact with the rotor)? It could be that the alternators are interchangeable. In which case I'd open up the voltage regulator and see what's between pins R and A. We're trying to establish what voltage / current is output across pins R and A. 

Another method is to look at the winding copper diameter to get the cross sectional area to work out how much continuous current the field winding is designed for. Usually it's around 7A/mm2. If there's more than one winding wire run in parallel, multiply the CSA accordingly. Measure the winding wire diameter with some digital calipers but be careful not to scratch the insulating varnish off.

Once you've established how much current the winding is designed for, check the DC resistance of the field winding. Multiply this by the current and you'll know the voltage required.

I have a feeling it will be around 300VDC as that's 208VAC rectified. At least that's how I'd design an alternator. In which case you can hook the rotor directly up to the 300V battery pack and treat the alternator as a synchronous motor.


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## tj4fa (May 25, 2008)

samborambo said:


> tj4fa,
> 
> There's some clues in the bottom left hand corner of the schematic but I can't say for sure. The schematic doesn't show any iron core relationships. Is that dotted box section the motor? It looks like a brushless alternator - no slip rings. F2-F1 is a field winding. G1 three phase winding, the rectifier and the armature coil are all spinning on the rotor. T1, T2, T3 are the stator windings. Are you sure this schematic is for the same alternator? Your alternator definitely has slip rings with brushes (some form of conductive contact with the rotor)? It could be that the alternators are interchangeable. In which case I'd open up the voltage regulator and see what's between pins R and A. We're trying to establish what voltage / current is output across pins R and A.


Thanks Sam  

I believe the 737 (light gray) generator head shown below is brushless while the 50's era AC generator (dark gray-not shown below) definitely has brushes. 

If I can use a voltage regulator out of an automobile alternate to make things simpler, I'm game as I'm not emotionally tied to using the aircraft black boxes.

The schematic is for a ground power unit run by a turbine but should be fairly similar to the on-board aircraft equivalent. They both use the same type generator head. I have cropped the schematic to show the generator portion a little more clearer.

I'm assuming the very bottom of the left hand corner of the schematic is the voltage regulator (VR1) with the pin #s and above it in the dotted line box is the alternator as you suspect.

I also opened up one of the voltage regulators to show the guts of it but will have to cut the wire bundle (maybe later tonight if need to) to see where the wiring goes from pins R and A.

Below are a few more photos of the 737 head and the VR internals.


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## samborambo (Aug 27, 2008)

Can you get a close up shot of the rear terminals? I can't see the terminal labels.

Can you take the rear cover off and get some shots of the internals around the rear end?

T4, T5 and T6 appear to be the neutral star point of the stator windings. They should be bonded together with a bus bar.

Sam.


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## samborambo (Aug 27, 2008)

There's a problem with using your brushless alternator - I don't know why I didn't see this before...

F1-F2 has a DC current that is induced into G1 while the rotor is rotating close to its synchronous speed. From there it is rectified and then used to set up the field in the rotor the same way a permanent magnet does.

At a rest/stall condition, G1 isn't spinning and therefore can't pick up the induced current from F1-F2. The motor would never start because there is no field set up on the rotor. The solution would be to use a 400Hz AC current into F1-F2 that reduces in frequency inversely to the motor increasing in speed. That would guarantee full torque from 0RPM. The AC waveform would need to be kept at the correct phase angle to the rotation of G1. You'll need a shaft encoder and a specially designed/programmed controller just to take care of the rotor field.

This is all getting quite complex and expensive unless you're looking to take on this task yourself - even I would be hesitant about attempting this.

There is a much simpler solution though - especially for someone who is more mechanically minded. Make a new rotor with high temperature rare earth permanent magnets - converting the motor to PMSM or BLDC. It's not as hard as it sounds if you're a competent machinist. The rotor core can be regular mild steel since there's not eddy curents in a synchronous rotor. Aluminium would be nice to keep the weight down but doesn't have very high permeability. The new rotor should be exactly the same diameter as the old one to maintain the same air gap between the rotor and stator. This is where 0.1mm starts to matter. Once you've turned the rotor, mill slots for the magnets to be mounted.

Pull the rotor out and take some photos of it and see what's involved.


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## tj4fa (May 25, 2008)

samborambo said:


> Can you get a close up shot of the rear terminals? I can't see the terminal labels.
> 
> Can you take the rear cover off and get some shots of the internals around the rear end?
> 
> ...





samborambo said:


> There's a problem with using your brushless alternator - I don't know why I didn't see this before...
> 
> F1-F2 has a DC current that is induced into G1 while the rotor is rotating close to its synchronous speed. From there it is rectified and then used to set up the field in the rotor the same way a permanent magnet does.
> 
> ...


Thanks Sam  That expensive thing sounds...err...expensive  

Maybe I should stick to using one as my range-extender generator rather than configuring one as a drive-motor. I should still be able to do that...right? 

Here are photos I took of both together and would value your opinion to figure which one would be easier to convert as a range-extender.


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## samborambo (Aug 27, 2008)

Well when they're used as alternators, the two will function the same. That said, I think the brushless one is far more power than you need from a range extender. You'd want around 20kVA for a family size car to cover highway cruising and some recharging of the batteries.

How much does the brushless alternator weigh? I'm quite interested in the idea of converting the brushless alternator to a permanent magnet BLDC motor. If you decide not to use the brushless alternator for anything, I'd be interested in buying it. 

Sam.


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## tj4fa (May 25, 2008)

samborambo said:


> Well when they're used as alternators, the two will function the same. That said, I think the brushless one is far more power than you need from a range extender. You'd want around 20kVA for a family size car to cover highway cruising and some recharging of the batteries.
> 
> How much does the brushless alternator weigh? I'm quite interested in the idea of converting the brushless alternator to a permanent magnet BLDC motor. If you decide not to use the brushless alternator for anything, I'd be interested in buying it.
> 
> Sam.


Sam, here's the weight on the brushless alternator.










The brushed one weighs about 92 lbs (the scale was not cooperating tonight).
http://gm-volt.com/2007/08/29/lates...ack-and-generator-details-and-clarifications/

I dunno. My truck plus a trailer may need a few extra kWs to do the series hybrid thing. 

The brushless alternator is 40KVA * .75 PF = 30kW
The brushed generator is 30KVA * .85 PF = 25.5kW

Either one would probably work for me. The brushless of course would be the best without brushes or commutators to wear out. However it might be better served as a drive motor...


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## ElectrifiedMonteSS (Feb 27, 2011)

So how did all that turn out? Curious Minds what to know! LOL


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