# Re: [EVDL] EV technology for the rest of us



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] EV technology for the rest of us*


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] EV technology for the rest of us*

In a message dated 12/19/2007 8:11:41 P.M. Pacific Standard Time, 
[email protected] writes:


Hey all

I find it funny sometimes (actually, anytime) I read
the belly aching about the lack of "choices" and
"costs" available to the EV converter. Makes me
wonder how many old timers roll their eyes when they
compare it to what was available when they started! 
Think about what it took for them create workable EV's
when frankly no one else really gave a hoot! It feels
pretty humbeling to me when I think of it that way.

In just over two short years Lithiums have gone from
"what the hell are you talking about" to being a
household word these days. We've EVen got members of
this list who are testing these batteries (both on the
track and off) right now today! I personally think
that's pretty cool and shows that howEVer slow, they
are coming. I remember when my first (2 head) VCR cost
me 600.00 bucks (movies were like 80 bucks) but now
they're a dime a dozon! Well right now it's pluck
down 600 bucks for a VCR or do without, lol.

I also wanted to chime in on the race vs daily trickle
down. I know I build a better motor now, having seen
the failure points on motors from the racers. I know
that not once in 25 years of building electric motors
did seeing an electric forklift EVer make someone
think "WOW, I want an electric car"! I get calls and
emails often from folks who saw a video of a racer and
wants info on converting a car (stating a tamer model
would be fine 8^o With that said having built the
worlds slowest EV's for 25 years building motors for
fast ones is a little >< funner, LMAO.

Don't get me wrong, I love to "dream build" and wander
off in "what if's" and "Ohh, wouldn't that be
wonderful" bliss, but I live in the real world and
figuer it's really not worth the effert to bitch that
someone hasn't created a (insert your fantasy
here)(insert price here)(insert without side effect
issues here) when I come back down to reality, LMAO.

I'm not saying we all need to eat our "glop" and like
it, but sometimes when I read a negitive post I wonder
whether that might be someones very first EVDL
reading. Here's some guy, all excited and turned on
to EV's, just signed up, and he gets this big nasty
EVDL booger blog 8^o and we get a newbie "sign off"
notice. Anyway, I'm not sure how many others think
about stuff like this but I do, and I send people here
all the time. 

Not sure how the heck I got onto this soapbox but I'm
jumping down now ;^) I just wanted to share how I see
things and that there is so much going on on at so
many levels that it surprises me that there is such
dismay out there. In the end, "we" may not get to
drive the perfect EV, but our children will, and
that's a very good thing, and something worth getting
excited about. If nothing else we are gathering
stories for our grandkids about what it was like
when...
Anyway that's my random motor fodder for today.
Cya
Jim Husted
Hi-Torque Electric

---------------------------------

Hey Jim that's really good advice I'm glad you put it to words that everyone 
can see, I paid 600 dollars for my first VCR, are you really that old???

Jim Ludiker...................another old EV-er




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----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] EV technology for the rest of us*



> --- [email protected] wrote:
> 
> > Hey Jim that's really good advice I'm glad you put
> > it to words that everyone
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] EV technology for the rest of us*

Jim:

I am not watching Nascar's truck races to help me decide what truck I am
going to buy for our ranch. EVers today have the same choices they had 4,
5 years ago - maybe even less.

VCR's and Lithium are not comparable. True - there's a lot of talk going
on about Lithium - but where can I buy 'em? Including charger, balancer
and with realistic price tags? I might be able to get them in 3 or 4
years. But Chevy may have the Volt available by then and other EVs/Plugins
maybe available.

It is not speed that matters to 'normal' people. It's range. I realize all
that 'you only need 40 Miles/day .. jada jada' talk, but people don't want
to be limited to a drive through the neighborhood. You know how to built a
better motor now. That's great. I'd rather see a motor available to me
(including controller) that would help to capture all that energy
converted into heat while stopping my lead sled. And yes, I know about
Zapi controllers.

I am sorry if it feels like I would be 'bitching' . That's not true. I
just need to rely on stuff other people are building. I can't do it
myself. I neither have the knowledge, nor the time.

So - I guess while you have fun going to the races, I wait until finally
somebody designs and sells an EV that makes sense, including a/c,
regenerative braking and advanced battery technologies.

Michaela

> Hey all
>
> I find it funny sometimes (actually, anytime) I read
> the belly aching about the lack of "choices" and
> "costs" available to the EV converter. Makes me
> wonder how many old timers roll their eyes when they
> compare it to what was available when they started!
> Think about what it took for them create workable EV's
> when frankly no one else really gave a hoot! It feels
> pretty humbeling to me when I think of it that way.
>
> In just over two short years Lithiums have gone from
> "what the hell are you talking about" to being a
> household word these days. We've EVen got members of
> this list who are testing these batteries (both on the
> track and off) right now today! I personally think
> that's pretty cool and shows that howEVer slow, they
> are coming. I remember when my first (2 head) VCR cost
> me 600.00 bucks (movies were like 80 bucks) but now
> they're a dime a dozon! Well right now it's pluck
> down 600 bucks for a VCR or do without, lol.
>
> I also wanted to chime in on the race vs daily trickle
> down. I know I build a better motor now, having seen
> the failure points on motors from the racers. I know
> that not once in 25 years of building electric motors
> did seeing an electric forklift EVer make someone
> think "WOW, I want an electric car"! I get calls and
> emails often from folks who saw a video of a racer and
> wants info on converting a car (stating a tamer model
> would be fine 8^o With that said having built the
> worlds slowest EV's for 25 years building motors for
> fast ones is a little >< funner, LMAO.
>
> Don't get me wrong, I love to "dream build" and wander
> off in "what if's" and "Ohh, wouldn't that be
> wonderful" bliss, but I live in the real world and
> figuer it's really not worth the effert to bitch that
> someone hasn't created a (insert your fantasy
> here)(insert price here)(insert without side effect
> issues here) when I come back down to reality, LMAO.
>
> I'm not saying we all need to eat our "glop" and like
> it, but sometimes when I read a negitive post I wonder
> whether that might be someones very first EVDL
> reading. Here's some guy, all excited and turned on
> to EV's, just signed up, and he gets this big nasty
> EVDL booger blog 8^o and we get a newbie "sign off"
> notice. Anyway, I'm not sure how many others think
> about stuff like this but I do, and I send people here
> all the time.
>
> Not sure how the heck I got onto this soapbox but I'm
> jumping down now ;^) I just wanted to share how I see
> things and that there is so much going on on at so
> many levels that it surprises me that there is such
> dismay out there. In the end, "we" may not get to
> drive the perfect EV, but our children will, and
> that's a very good thing, and something worth getting
> excited about. If nothing else we are gathering
> stories for our grandkids about what it was like
> when...
> Anyway that's my random motor fodder for today.
> Cya
> Jim Husted
> Hi-Torque Electric
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ____________________________________________________________________________________
> Be a better friend, newshound, and
> know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now.
> http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ
>
>
>


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] EV technology for the rest of us*

In a message dated 12/20/2007 6:52:13 A.M. Pacific Standard Time, 
[email protected] writes:


Hey Jim

Turned 45 this year 8^o In as much as that's not old
(to some) I am at the stage where the age of the body
is starting to lag behind the youth of the mind 8^P

Anyway I felt compelled to add my thoughts on this
subject as all to often I see a post like yours
talking about a really great acheivement (this one
concerning Dennis' battery sponsor and latest runs)
and it gets turned into this negitive, cry baby, I
want it now, cause it's all about me gripe fest!

In as much as I think EVeryone would love to have free
batteies given them to try, I can't see how another
EV'er could begrudge them for getting some and to be
honest it sickens my heart when I see this happening!

Anyway congrats again, I look forward to hearing of
future improvements and faster times.
Cya
Jim Husted
Hi-Torque Electric

-----------------------------

The other thing people don't look at is how many years and dollars Dennis 
has spent to get where he is, if they would just check his web site they would 
some idea. It takes a lot time to build up a reputation and trust before 
someone wants to "give" you something.
Hope you make it to ElectricDragin, should bee lots of fun.

Jim Ludiker..................I win, I've been around 21 longer than you.




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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] EV technology for the rest of us*



> --- Michaela Merz <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> > Jim:
> 
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] EV technology for the rest of us*


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] EV technology for the rest of us*

Hey Jim,

I couldn't agree more. Thanks for the post...

Additionally, I am quite certain there are very few people on this 
planet that really know what they are actually capable of. I think most 
people would be astonished what they can do if they put their mind to 
it and added some effort. Our society has evolved into quite a state of 
consumerism where we are very dependent on "others" to provide for us. 
I suppose there is merit to that mind set, but I am, personally, very 
uncomfortable with it. I don't feel that complaining about "others" not 
properly providing for us is valid, especially if you are not 
contributing to the effort. Anybody remember, "The Little Red Hen" 
story?

Sorry about the soap box. Sometimes it just happens.

Ken






-----Original Message-----
From: Jim Husted <[email protected]>
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <[email protected]>
Sent: Wed, 19 Dec 2007 10:09 pm
Subject: Re: [EVDL] EV technology for the rest of us



Hey all

I find it funny sometimes (actually, anytime) I read
the belly aching about the lack of "choices" and
"costs" available to the EV converter. Makes me
wonder how many old timers roll their eyes when they
compare it to what was available when they started!
Think about what it took for them create workable EV's
when frankly no one else really gave a hoot! It feels
pretty humbeling to me when I think of it that way.

In just over two short years Lithiums have gone from
"what the hell are you talking about" to being a
household word these days. We've EVen got members of
this list who are testing these batteries (both on the
track and off) right now today! I personally think
that's pretty cool and shows that howEVer slow, they
are coming. I remember when my first (2 head) VCR cost
me 600.00 bucks (movies were like 80 bucks) but now
they're a dime a dozon! Well right now it's pluck
down 600 bucks for a VCR or do without, lol.

I also wanted to chime in on the race vs daily trickle
down. I know I build a better motor now, having seen
the failure points on motors from the racers. I know
that not once in 25 years of building electric motors
did seeing an electric forklift EVer make someone
think "WOW, I want an electric car"! I get calls and
emails often from folks who saw a video of a racer and
wants info on converting a car (stating a tamer model
would be fine 8^o With that said having built the
worlds slowest EV's for 25 years building motors for
fast ones is a little >< funner, LMAO.

Don't get me wrong, I love to "dream build" and wander
off in "what if's" and "Ohh, wouldn't that be
wonderful" bliss, but I live in the real world and
figuer it's really not worth the effert to bitch that
someone hasn't created a (insert your fantasy
here)(insert price here)(insert without side effect
issues here) when I come back down to reality, LMAO.

I'm not saying we all need to eat our "glop" and like
it, but sometimes when I read a negitive post I wonder
whether that might be someones very first EVDL
reading. Here's some guy, all excited and turned on
to EV's, just signed up, and he gets this big nasty
EVDL booger blog 8^o and we get a newbie "sign off"
notice. Anyway, I'm not sure how many others think
about stuff like this but I do, and I send people here
all the time.

Not sure how the heck I got onto this soapbox but I'm
jumping down now ;^) I just wanted to share how I see
things and that there is so much going on on at so
many levels that it surprises me that there is such
dismay out there. In the end, "we" may not get to
drive the perfect EV, but our children will, and
that's a very good thing, and something worth getting
excited about. If nothing else we are gathering
stories for our grandkids about what it was like
when...
Anyway that's my random motor fodder for today.
Cya
Jim Husted
Hi-Torque Electric






_________________________________________________________________________
___________
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know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. 
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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] EV technology for the rest of us*

> 
> So - I guess while you have fun going to the races, I wait until finally
> somebody designs and sells an EV that makes sense, including a/c,
> regenerative braking and advanced battery technologies.
> 
> Michaela
> 

Do you have a price range in mind that would be comfortable with?


--
Stay Charged!
Hump
"If you don't "believe" you'll make a difference, than you probably never will!" -- Jim Husted


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] EV technology for the rest of us*



> Michaela Merz wrote:
> 
> > VCR's and Lithium are not comparable. True - there's a lot of
> > talk going on about Lithium - but where can I buy 'em?
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] EV technology for the rest of us*

Roger:

Get serious please. A truck with ac drive and Valence batteries is 30,000
Dollars or more. I can get a brand new truck with 5 years warranty and all
bells and whistles for half the money at more local dealership. And it
will go 300 Miles or more on a tank.

If this is what you call 'realistic' , we are in different leagues. I
might as well buy one of them 'fuel cell' test vehicles. Just a million
bucks, but sure, they are available.

I thought I made it clear that I am neither complaining nor bitching.
Though I was afraid of receiving 'suggestions' like that.

Thanks for your insight. Maybe if I win the lottery ..

Michaela





> > Michaela Merz wrote:
> >
> >> VCR's and Lithium are not comparable. True - there's a lot of
> >> talk going on about Lithium - but where can I buy 'em?
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] EV technology for the rest of us*



> Michaela Merz <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> > I thought I made it clear that I am neither complaining nor bitching.
> 
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] EV technology for the rest of us*

>
> Roger:
>
> Get serious please. A truck with ac drive and Valence batteries is 30,000
> Dollars or more. I can get a brand new truck with 5 years warranty and all
> bells and whistles for half the money at more local dealership. And it
> will go 300 Miles or more on a tank.

You must have really nice dealers where you're at.
I guess you could buy a base model ford ranger (with NO options) for that
price around here, but good luck finding one on a lot. The cheapest I've
seen was close to $20K and it was NOT fully loaded. Every other small
truck costs more.

I paid $30,000 for my pickup last year and I got a sweat deal 'cause the
sticker price was over $38K, and it is far from loaded. Granted the
deisel engine bumped that price up $5k, but sometimes you just gotta bite
the bullet to run on green fuel.
Please note: the deisel engine did not cost $5K, it cost $5 MORE than the
gas engine.
For the cost of a New deisel engine I could have bought a brand new AC
motor and controller and had regen, and probably had cash left over.

All things considered, parts for EVs are pretty reasonably priced, they
just aren't dirt cheap (unless you want to buy chinese junk)

-- 
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
legalistic signature is void.

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] EV technology for the rest of us*

Assuming you can actually get such a truck for 15k, with a 5
year warranty, how much will you spend on fuel in those 5 years vs.
cost of electricity and battery replacement in 5 years? With lead-acid
batteries, assuming the price of gasoline remains steady, you might
still break even replacing the pack 2x in 5 years- though it is
unlikely. Of course, your example cites a Valence pack which is
unlikely to need to be replaced within 5 years. In that case you might
actually come out ahead.
I'm assuming that you are not a wealthy person and that such
decisions need be made on an economic basis. I concede that Lithium
batteries are still *somewhat* unproven in this regard: I don't know
of anyone who has been running a Valence pack for 5 years yet.
Your 5 year warranty will not necessarily cover the costs of
oil filters, air filters, etc which will need to be replaced
repeatedly over 5 years. The electric version will not require these.
This is something that should be included in the cost/benefit
comparison.
You have stated already that you will not be doing your own
conversion. I'm not sure if your figures for "a truck with ac drive
and Valence batteries" is based on a quote from a professional
converter or from the parts page at Metric Mind or the luminiferous
aether  Anyhow I reckon if you are a sharp enough horse trader you
might wangle a 5 year warranty from evblue or some other outfit that
does professional conversions.
All this aside, while I welcome your input to the list, if your
wants are as you describe you might be better off pestering GM or the
manufacturer of your choice. They may not *want* to help you, but they
*can*. On the other hand, the majority of posters to EVDL want to
help, but can't.
Anyway good luck with whatever you decide, and I hope you enjoy
whatever holidays you have going on. Cheers.



> Michaela Merz <[email protected]> wrote:
> >
> > Roger:
> >
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] EV technology for the rest of us*

I for one, am having a real "stimulating" time building my EV.
I tried the idea out with a golf cart/motorcycle NEV "mongrel three wheeler last year
and LOVED it (top speed 30MPH, range 35 miles.
Now I am part way through converting a 1972VW van.
I chose that model as I had a 1965 VW van for a decade and a half and that was the MOST
USEFUL VEHICLE I've ever owned!? I'll be happy with a 40 mile range and enough speed to be
?safe in the slow lane of the cross-town Interstate.? I bought the parts from EV America and I
REALLY appreciate the "hand holding" that Bob there has done with me in new-to-me problems.
At this point I have the Advanced DC motor mounted to the trans-axle, the battery boxes welded up
and just figured out the mounting of the pot box.? Tomorrow, I'll pick up a sheet of half-inch
?water-proof plywood to box in the engine compartment and to start mounting the contactors,
?control unit,fuses and other electrical bits.
Started the work in ernest in August, hope to be driving by early Febuary.? I realize the set up I'm using
?is now 20 year old technology but should be adequate for the rest of MY driving life.

I think that part of the EV "mindset" is not to be waiting for Tesla type perfomance and range from state of the
art drive systems and batteries but to "get real" about what most folks NEED to satisfy their in-town transportation needs
A money saver? Not really, the van cost $5,000, I'll be spending about $6,000 with EV America.
A life-changing experience? I am sure of that.? Sort of like my buying a new BMW bike in 1972 - I'm still riding it, have become a factory-trained mechanic, and own a small percentage of our local BMW dealership!? I've ridden to Istanbul, Tunisia, Morroco, Guatamala, and Mexico seven times.? I fully expect a few "changes" to come from my electric VW van as well.? What are they? Time will tell
Looking forward to that first test drive and the big EV grin!
Matt Parkhouse,
Colorado Springs, CO
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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] EV technology for the rest of us*



> Michaela Merz wrote:
> 
> > Get serious please. A truck with ac drive and Valence
> > batteries is 30,000 Dollars or more.
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] EV technology for the rest of us*

read the post "no subject and see and hopefully understand why not to buy that production vechicle 
----- Original Message ----- 
From: Michaela Merz<mailto:[email protected]> 
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List<mailto:[email protected]> 
Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2007 9:50 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] EV technology for the rest of us



Roger:

Get serious please. A truck with ac drive and Valence batteries is 30,000
Dollars or more. I can get a brand new truck with 5 years warranty and all
bells and whistles for half the money at more local dealership. And it
will go 300 Miles or more on a tank.

If this is what you call 'realistic' , we are in different leagues. I
might as well buy one of them 'fuel cell' test vehicles. Just a million
bucks, but sure, they are available.

I thought I made it clear that I am neither complaining nor bitching.
Though I was afraid of receiving 'suggestions' like that.

Thanks for your insight. Maybe if I win the lottery ..

Michaela





> > Michaela Merz wrote:
> >
> >> VCR's and Lithium are not comparable. True - there's a lot of
> >> talk going on about Lithium - but where can I buy 'em?
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] EV technology for the rest of us*



> On 20 Dec 2007 at 21:50, Michaela Merz wrote:
> 
> > A truck with ac drive and Valence batteries is 30,000
> > Dollars or more. I can get a brand new truck with 5 years warranty and all
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] EV technology for the rest of us*



> EVDL Administrator wrote:
> > Actually 30K is probably optimistic. I think the battery alone will cost
> > that much. Valance is crushingly expensive.
> >
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] EV technology for the rest of us*



> On 22 Dec 2007 at 6:06, Dan Frederiksen wrote:
> 
> > that's not entirely true though, they charge 8$ per cell in volume of
> > 1000 and 5$ in volume of 10000.
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] EV technology for the rest of us*

Roger and all :

The initial debate was about a member of the list (still) being referred
to as a 'troll' just because he was, at times, thinking differently. I
personally resent that people are publicly (and even in topic lines)
patronized and I was just making clear, that I think differently too. But
most should know that by now. Maybe I am a troll as well. (Stop nodding
..)

My 'lamenting' about not having regen was not that I would need it, just
that while people are fascinated with unobtainium, most EVers are burning
(almost literally) away huge amounts of energy every time they step on the
brakes.

While I may sound stupid sometimes, I am well aware what is available and
what is not. I actually went through Victors water heaters. The first one
went dead after about 6 months, the second was DOA. The 'advanced' DC/DC
from Victor also died after about 4 months of use. Though Victor replaced
it, I am kind of worried that it is going to die on me again. So, I keep
using the old DC/DC that has been working for 3 1/2 years now.

If haven't been able to get my point across. I apologize. While it *would*
be nice to have heaters, air conditioners, regen braking .. I personally
don't *need* anything. However, I disagree with what quite a few people on
the list are suggesting: That 'normal' EVers are benefiting from racers,
or, that racing down the track makes people sympathetic towards EVs.

Normal EVers may not like their lead, but most have accepted the
limitations of lead-acid. However, it would be beneficial, if one would at
least be able to buy the systems that are considered to be 'normal' in any
other car or truck, like heat and a/c . Since heat and a/c (or even regen)
are not part of the forklift or golf cart supply chain, it's just not
available. And no amount of racing is going to change that.

That's all folks 

mm.













> > Michaela Merz wrote:
> >
> >> Get serious please. A truck with ac drive and Valence
> >> batteries is 30,000 Dollars or more.
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] EV technology for the rest of us*

>
> Roger and all :
>
> The initial debate was about a member of the list (still) being referred
> to as a 'troll' just because he was, at times, thinking differently. I
> personally resent that people are publicly (and even in topic lines)
> patronized and I was just making clear, that I think differently too. But
> most should know that by now. Maybe I am a troll as well. (Stop nodding
> ..)
>

A troll is someone who joins the list to be insulting or disruptive.
Thinking differently does not make you (or anyone else) a troll.

Continuously insulting people simply because they don't think the way you
do would make you a troll. We have also marked people as trolls because
they keep asking the same silly questions over and over (usually about
over-unity etc.)

You, Micheala, are not a troll. I like having people like you on the
list. I don't necessarily agree with everything you say (what a dreary
world this would be if everyone always agreed with everyone else), but
thinking differently is how new things get accomplished.

Insulting people accomplishes nothing, except that after a while people
will ignore everything you say.



> My 'lamenting' about not having regen was not that I would need it, just
> that while people are fascinated with unobtainium, most EVers are burning
> (almost literally) away huge amounts of energy every time they step on the
> brakes.
>
> While I may sound stupid sometimes, I am well aware what is available and
> what is not. I actually went through Victors water heaters. The first one
> went dead after about 6 months, the second was DOA. The 'advanced' DC/DC
> from Victor also died after about 4 months of use. Though Victor replaced
> it, I am kind of worried that it is going to die on me again. So, I keep
> using the old DC/DC that has been working for 3 1/2 years now.
>
> If haven't been able to get my point across. I apologize. While it *would*
> be nice to have heaters, air conditioners, regen braking .. I personally
> don't *need* anything. However, I disagree with what quite a few people on
> the list are suggesting: That 'normal' EVers are benefiting from racers,
> or, that racing down the track makes people sympathetic towards EVs.
>
> Normal EVers may not like their lead, but most have accepted the
> limitations of lead-acid. However, it would be beneficial, if one would at
> least be able to buy the systems that are considered to be 'normal' in any
> other car or truck, like heat and a/c . Since heat and a/c (or even regen)
> are not part of the forklift or golf cart supply chain, it's just not
> available. And no amount of racing is going to change that.
>
> That's all folks 
>
> mm.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>


> >> Michaela Merz wrote:
> >>
> >>> Get serious please. A truck with ac drive and Valence
> >>> batteries is 30,000 Dollars or more.
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] EV technology for the rest of us*



> Peter VanDerWal <[email protected]> wrote:
> >
> > You, Micheala, are not a troll. I like having people like you on the
> > list. I don't necessarily agree with everything you say (what a dreary
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] EV technology for the rest of us*

So then YOU go and be the one who makes it happen for all the rest of 
us. Don't bitch, just make it happen. It WILL cost plenty but just 
think, you get to be named the one who made it happen for the rest of 
us. No RACING required.

: )

Pete


> Michaela Merz wrote:
> 
> > Since heat and a/c (or even regen)
> > are not part of the forklift or golf cart supply chain, it's just not
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] EV technology for the rest of us*



> Michaela Merz wrote:
> 
> >Normal EVers may not like their lead, but most have accepted the
> >limitations of lead-acid. However, it would be beneficial, if one would at
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] EV technology for the rest of us*

I need to put a heater in my conversion so I bought 2 ceramic heater
cubes from walmart. One is keeping my feet warm at the moment as the
heater in the house is broken :-(.

What I wanted to ask was how do the ones on ev source differ from these
sub $30 units?

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] EV technology for the rest of us*



> Jeff Shanab wrote:
> 
> >What I wanted to ask was how do the ones on ev source differ from these
> >sub $30 units?
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] EV technology for the rest of us*

> I need to put a heater in my conversion so I bought 2 ceramic heater> cubes from walmart. One is keeping my feet warm at the moment as the> heater in the house is broken :-(.> > What I wanted to ask was how do the ones on ev source differ from these> sub $30 units?I used a pair of the cheapo elements in a conversion that has been a daily driver in northern Minnesota for over a year now. No problems so far. 
Target has a buy one get one free deal on Holmes heaters that are interesting. Instead of one 1500 watt element, they have 2 750 watt elements that are 1/2 the size of the regular ones. 2 heaters are packaged in one box for under $30.00, so you get 4 750 watt elements for about $7.50 each!
I grabbed some because the smaller dimensions of these elements will make for more flexibility in mounting and ducting. (Especially defrosters)
Even though this doesn't answer your question on how they differ, (I don't know) hope it helps.

Tim Medeck

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] EV technology for the rest of us*

<<< As for regen, I think in typical use, it's not super valuable. Most of
my kwh will get burned up by the wind resistance. If regen increased my
range by 10%, I could get the same effect by adding one battery. And I
could probably get half that back by coasting to stops instead of
braking. I would love to have regen, because it's "cool," and it
certainly is available (at a $2k-$3k premium over a DC system) and I'm
not willing to pay the price right now. >>>

I am one of the handful of people with an OEM Ranger EV, and I can 
tell you regen is not that important to an experience EV driver. 
Having already learned the finer details of coasting, I find shifting 
to Neutral gives more overall range than regen, especially the very 
mild version Ford programmed in this truck (it helps to know the 
timing of lights around town).

On one long downhill, I coast up to the crest as the speed drops to 
50mph, then continue down the other side as the speed goes over 80mph 
(unless the CHP are sitting there, then regen is useful) - top speed 
is governed to 75mph "under power"!

I do have both heating and AC, but the AC gets used a maximum of 10min 
on days over 100 degrees, and since the range drops in the winter, and 
my commute is 48mi a day, it's safer to bundle up so I can make it 
there and back!

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] EV technology for the rest of us*



> On 22 Dec 2007 at 20:20, [email protected] wrote:
> 
> > I can
> > tell you regen is not that important to an experience EV driver.
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] EV technology for the rest of us*



> Michaela Merz wrote:
> > Roger and all :
> ...
> > While I may sound stupid sometimes, I am well aware what is available and
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] EV technology for the rest of us*

Having regen is very nice.
when I am going down hill I use to maintain a
reasonable speed but when I'm on level ground I use
the clutch to coast. The combination works well for
me and saves kinetic energy and breaks both ways. 
kEVs


> --- EVDL Administrator <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> > On 22 Dec 2007 at 20:20, [email protected] wrote:
> >
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] EV technology for the rest of us*



> On 22 Dec 2007 at 19:04, Jeff Shanab wrote:
> 
> > What I wanted to ask was how do the ones on ev source differ from these
> > sub $30 units?
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] EV technology for the rest of us*

Victor:

I hope you read that I was not trying to make anybody look bad. Simple
truth is, that those water heaters failed twice the DC/DC failed too.
Might have been my fault, I don't know. All I know is, that *all* other
12V driven units, including (your) vacuum pump, e-meter, radio, amplifier,
lights [..] etc. are working just fine.

Why am I putting up with this? Because I am the kind of person that
believes that if something fails twice, it is probably not going to last
the third time. So - I usually just move on and mark it as 'experience' .
Might be a weird philosophy, but, well, that's just the way I am.

> Series of unfortunate events. BTW, you realize that "advanced" DCDC600
> converter sold by BRUSA is not BRUSA's product, it's imported by them
> from some other (my guess - far East based) manufacturer. Look at the
> label (rather lack of).

No, I didn't know. But, well, it doesn't matter anyway.

> I understand you frustration, almost complains that there is no one
> taking care of your exactly needs making your EV life simpler.
> Someone might make bolt-on A/C system for a truck like yours.
> I do what I can, and my hands are full already.

I am not frustrated. I have realized for some time now, that home brew
style EVing might just not be my can of worms. I don't want to tinker
around, I want to use my vehicle. From all the messages I've got on and
off list I realize, that my suggestions are not mine alone. There is
demand - though no supply.

> There is always a layer of lower and lower income people complaining
> they still can't afford what they want. Venting is OK, but doesn't
> practically change much, and if you want physical change, I think
> *you* have got to find another solution rather than get disappointed
> that others won't provide it for you. Reality is - fair or not,
> no one *has* to.

Hmm .. I don't know what you are saying. Is it like: If you ain't got the
money to buy the good stuff, tough luck? Well - I bought some expensive
stuff - and as far as I recall, I paid for it. It is now booked under
'experience' - see above.

Anyway - let's just put that topic to a rest. I feel that the style is
beginning to slip in a direction that would not be appropriate for this
list.

Michaela






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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] EV technology for the rest of us*

Michaela,

Why don't you get a factory Ford Ranger EV from EV bones then?
Complete OEM EV truck, nothing to tinker with?

Victor




> Michaela Merz wrote:
> 
> > I am not frustrated. I have realized for some time now, that home brew
> > style EVing might just not be my can of worms. I don't want to tinker
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] EV technology for the rest of us*

EV Bones told me they only deal in S10 trucks. There are always factory Ford
Rangers and S10's EVs on ebay any giving week, with low mileage. You'll pay
about $15k for a lead acid unit and about $28k for a NiMH
Neal



> Metric Mind wrote:
> >
> > Michaela,
> >
> ...


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