# [EVDL] Controller cheap?



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

I believe it was: www.kellycontroller.com

They emailed me, warning me not to go past 100vdc
nominal on the highest rated unit they have. I'll
have to keep my 72vdc Alltrax, until I win the lottery
or something of that nature. I want to go to at least
120vdc, and Kelly Controllers doesn't have one yet,
and ALLTRAX keeps telling me, SOON, real soon on the
higher rated version they are going to release. I
like ALLTRAX, mainly for the serial output to a PC,
and the ability to watch it's parameters on a laptop
in the car.





> --- Mitch or Terric <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> > Interesting .. Of all the discussion I have seen
> > here about how cheaper
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Micheal,

That communication with ALLTRAX wouldn't have included any mention
of SepEx at the higher voltages would it have? 

If so, I would like to add my name to the list of interested
parties.

Chet



> --- Michael Barkley <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> > I believe it was: www.kellycontroller.com
> >
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

I'm one of the proponents for cheaper controllers but as I recall those 
chinese controllers were not half price curtis'es. they didn't have the 
same max voltage and that's probably the reason they are not being 
talked about.
if they were the same specs as curtis then they would be genuinely 
interesting. but they are not

that said they are actually so cheap they could be a socalled poor man's 
EV choice for contoller. it seem EVUSA has already adopted them:
http://www.electricvehiclesusa.com/category_s/48.htm

if they actually work at 84V 400A for 388$ that might actually make for 
a nice city car. probably not highway speeds but maybe even that. it's 
not a great performer but it is cheaper than 1400$ for the biggest 
curtis or 2200$ for the smallest zilla

someone could try and let us know how it works

Dan





> Mitch or Terric wrote:
> > Interesting .. Of all the discussion I have seen here about how cheaper
> > controller were not possible .. Then some body says hey look here .. They
> > are selling these for about half the price and they come with a year
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Here is the response that I got back from Alltrax at the end of June when I=
asked about their upcoming controllers.

A HV series controller is a given but not the leading product under develop=
ment. We're far into the R&D cycle of a technology applicable to everything=
we'll build in the future, including HV controllers. Primary research is d=
one, need to complete development.

damon


> Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2007 10:18:14 -0700
> From: [email protected]
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Controller cheap?
>
> Micheal,
>
> That communication with ALLTRAX wouldn't have included any mention
> of SepEx at the higher voltages would it have? 
>
> If so, I would like to add my name to the list of interested
> parties.
>
> Chet
>


> > --- Michael Barkley wrote:
> >
> >> I believe it was: www.kellycontroller.com
> >>
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Dan,
Dollars per Killowatt, the Zilla still has these "cheap Poor Man" models beat in price in some instances by 3:1.

Comparing the two most comparable models on this list, KD84600 and Z1K-LV, if a 50KW "cheap" chinese controller can be had for
$500 and the venerable 150KW Zilla Low Voltage can be had for slightly over $1500 (approximately 3X the power at approximately 3X
the price) then its not your buddy in Oregon thats getting rich making 20 to 40 a year.

:-O

Model Volts Amps KW $$ $$/KW
KD36200 36 200 7.2 $159 $22.083
KD36300 36 300 10.8 $199 $18.426
KD48200 48 200 9.6 $199 $20.729
KD48300 48 300 14.4 $239 $16.597
KD48400 48 400 19.2 $289 $15.052
KD48500 48 500 24 $349 $14.542
KD48600 48 600 28.8 $429 $14.896
KD84200 84 200 16.8 $279 $16.607
KD84300 84 300 25.2 $329 $13.056
KD84400 84 400 33.6 $389 $11.577
KD84500 84 500 42 $459 $10.929
KD84600 84 600 50.4 $529 $10.496
Z1K-LV 156 1000 156 $1,975 $12.660
Z1K-HV 300 1000 300 $2,550 $ 8.500
Z1K-EHV 348 1000 348 $2,825 $ 8.118
Z2K-LV 156 2000 312 $3,300 $10.577
Z2K-HV 300 2000 600 $4,450 $ 7.417
Z2K-EHV 348 2000 696 $4,850 $ 6.968

Mike,
Anchorage, Ak.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]]On
> Behalf Of Dan Frederiksen
> Sent: Friday, September 07, 2007 8:42 AM
> To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Controller cheap?
>
>
> I'm one of the proponents for cheaper controllers but as I recall those
> chinese controllers were not half price curtis'es. they didn't have the
> same max voltage and that's probably the reason they are not being
> talked about.
> if they were the same specs as curtis then they would be genuinely
> interesting. but they are not
>
> that said they are actually so cheap they could be a socalled poor man's
> EV choice for contoller. it seem EVUSA has already adopted them:
> http://www.electricvehiclesusa.com/category_s/48.htm
>
> if they actually work at 84V 400A for 388$ that might actually make for
> a nice city car. probably not highway speeds but maybe even that. it's
> not a great performer but it is cheaper than 1400$ for the biggest
> curtis or 2200$ for the smallest zilla
>
> someone could try and let us know how it works
>
> Dan
>
>
>


> > Mitch or Terric wrote:
> > > Interesting .. Of all the discussion I have seen here about how cheaper
> > > controller were not possible .. Then some body says hey look here .. They
> > > are selling these for about half the price and they come with a year
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

poor man's choice generally doesn't involve paying 3 times as much as he 
has to. by that I mean kw/$ is not the criteria. it's the minimum price 
for a passable car.

also where do you get a zilla for 1500?

Dan



> Mike Willmon wrote:
> 
> >Dan,
> >Dollars per Killowatt, the Zilla still has these "cheap Poor Man" models beat in price in some instances by 3:1.
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

How could one figure out the demand for a more economical, in stock / off 
the shelf controller? What should the specs be? 36 - 300 Volts 1000 Amps 
max? What would a fair price be?

Dave Delman
Electric DeLorean Conversion





************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com
_______________________________________________
For subscription options, see
http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Hello Dave,

Looking through my electrical parts catalog, either from GE, Westinghouse, 
Square D, etc. which are the whole sale prices, it seems all the electrical 
components are at about $1.00 per amp.

Looking at a 1000 amp Limitron Circuit Breaker, it about $1000.00, a 5000 
amp circuit breaker is about $5000.00 and so on. Same with the contactors, 
a 600 amp contactor is about $600.00.

Looking through the NTE solid state component catalog, is the same story. 
The high power diodes, SCR's and Traic's are also about a dollar a amp. The 
800 amp hockey puck which is in one of my old controllers cost about $600.00 
each.

I complete spare component kit for my old 1000 amp rated controller cost me 
about $3500.00, which was bought right from the factory, not from a parts 
dealer.

So, now you have this box of components, but you must build heat sinks, 
chassis, do the connections, assembly the wiring, make the enclosures, add 
circuit breakers, labels, testing and etc.

In our work, we purchase a lot of components that is a factory un-assembly 
pack, which means we assemble it in the field. A $10,000.00 factory 
assembly unit will cost us about $5,000.00 for the un-assembly pack if we 
only want one of each instead of a 100 units that we may have to factory 
assemble it for us to same time.

We than can bid between $15,000.00 to $20,000.00 to install this unit. For 
example a Power Anderson Plug aircraft starting unit that is completely 
assembly by Power Anderson, cost us about $10,000.00, but we can make this 
unit by using a un-assembly pack and install it into a Hoffman Nema 12 
enclosure for $5000.00 and install it for $10,000.00.

The 1000 amp Zilla or 2000 amp Zilla, the very fair price would be at about 
three times the amp rating of these units but could be more depending on the 
voltage rating and additional components you want for it.

Roland

Roland

So if a un-assembly 1000 amp component pack cost about $1000.00, add about 
another $1000.00 for labor and assembly and another $1000.00 for profit, 
that will be a close estimate.


----- Original Message ----- 
From: <[email protected]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Sunday, September 09, 2007 7:37 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Controller cheap?


>
>
> How could one figure out the demand for a more economical, in stock / off
> the shelf controller? What should the specs be? 36 - 300 Volts 1000 
> Amps
> max? What would a fair price be?
>
> Dave Delman
> Electric DeLorean Conversion
>
>
>
>
>
> ************************************** See what's new at 
> http://www.aol.com
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
> 

_______________________________________________
For subscription options, see
http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> [email protected] wrote:
> > How could one figure out the demand for a more economical, in stock /
> > off the shelf controller? What should the specs be? 36-300 Volts
> > 1000 Amps max? What would a fair price be?
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

demand is hard to say, the enthusiast market doesn't seem to be huge yet 
but a good and cheap controller could change that. if it's actually 
genuinely reliable you may also be able to get the forklift market

as for cost, the key electronics seems to be power transistors, diodes 
and caps. the transistors could be these for instance:
http://www.st.com/stonline/books/pdf/docs/13241.pdf at less than 2$ a 
pop at 500 pieces. I guesstimate that if water cooled you could get 
40amps out of those even in parallel. maybe even more but that would be 
roughly 100$. for 1000amps worth.
then say perhaps this panasonic 350V 100uF cap: 
http://www.panasonic.com/industrial/components/pdf/ee104_eeu_eb_dne.pdf
at 1$ if you buy 1000 at a time. maybe 50 of those needed. let's say 
roughly 2-300$ for the main electronics. then the supporting 
electronics, some simple bussbars, water cooling bar and fittings, PCB, 
base board and thermoplastic lid etc.. say 500$ total cost? profitable 
at 800$ in volume maybe..

more importantly I don't think you need 1000amps continuous power. 300V 
500A is more than fine for instance. that's almost 200 ponies
and I figure the chinese could spit those out for 500$ retail. I would 
buy one

where it really gets interesting is when it's combined with DCDC and a 
recharger in a sub 1000$ package. that would be something and that's 
what we need electronics wise

Dan





> [email protected] wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Dan Frederiksen <[email protected]> wrote:
> > demand is hard to say, the enthusiast market doesn't seem to be huge yet
> > but a good and cheap controller could change that. if it's actually
> > genuinely reliable you may also be able to get the forklift market
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

I couldn't even begin to guesstimate the number of units that are selling 
now but at my first EV meeting yesterday it certainly seemed that the controller 
was the Achilles' Heel of a conversion. Something strong, reliable, not 
too expensive, and something that doesn't take months to get needs to be made.

and I suppose including a DC - DC converter either inside or as a package 
would be a plus. In terms of a recharger, that seems to get a bit more 
complicated due to the fact that there are a number of chemistries, pack voltages 
and AmpHour ratings being used.




Thank you,

Dave Delman
1981 Electric DeLorean Project





> [email protected] wrote:
> > How could one figure out the demand for a more economical, in stock /
> > off the shelf controller? What should the specs be? 36-300 Volts
> > 1000 Amps max? What would a fair price be?
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Call me old fashioned, but I still like my home stereo
to be in component sections, IE: Receiver, amp, tape
deck, CD deck, etc. This way if one goes out, all I
have to replace is the one device, and not the whole
system. Usually individual pieces are also better
quality than something that is an All-in-One. 

Therefore, I vote to keep the EV components
individualized and less complicated. Just my opinion
though....




> --- [email protected] wrote:
> 
> >
> >
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

The problem here is not the cost of the controllers, it's unrealistic user
expectations.

People want a high tech piece of equipment that is capable of handling
enourmous amounts of power, but they want to pay less for it than the cost
of a used laptop.

I mean even a wimpy, under powered, Curtis controller handles twice as
much power as the main power panel on a new house, AND it costs less that
the same power panel which is made up of nothing but wires and circuit
breakers, but some folks still insist on whining about how expensive
controllers are.

I'd bet the same people wouldn't bat an eyelid at spending $5,000 or more
on an engagement ring and would think that that is a fair price to pay for
a chunk of rock mounted on a bit of metal.

>
> I couldn't even begin to guesstimate the number of units that are selling
> now but at my first EV meeting yesterday it certainly seemed that the
> controller
> was the Achilles' Heel of a conversion. Something strong, reliable, not
> too expensive, and something that doesn't take months to get needs to be
> made.
>
> and I suppose including a DC - DC converter either inside or as a package
> would be a plus. In terms of a recharger, that seems to get a bit more
> complicated due to the fact that there are a number of chemistries, pack
> voltages
> and AmpHour ratings being used.
>
>
>
>
> Thank you,
>
> Dave Delman
> 1981 Electric DeLorean Project
>
>
>


> > [email protected] wrote:
> >> How could one figure out the demand for a more economical, in stock /
> >> off the shelf controller? What should the specs be? 36-300 Volts
> >> 1000 Amps max? What would a fair price be?
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

I suggest you start a business to make these units,
the real proof of the pudding is in the eating.... 


Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
Email: [email protected] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [email protected]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Second Life: www.secondlife.com/?u=3b42cb3f4ae249319edb487991c30acb

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Dan Frederiksen
Sent: Sunday, September 09, 2007 11:01 AM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Controller cheap?

demand is hard to say, the enthusiast market doesn't seem to be huge yet but a good and cheap controller could change that. if it's actually genuinely reliable you may also be able to get the forklift market

as for cost, the key electronics seems to be power transistors, diodes and caps. the transistors could be these for instance:
http://www.st.com/stonline/books/pdf/docs/13241.pdf at less than 2$ a pop at 500 pieces. I guesstimate that if water cooled you could get 40amps out of those even in parallel. maybe even more but that would be roughly 100$. for 1000amps worth.
then say perhaps this panasonic 350V 100uF cap: 
http://www.panasonic.com/industrial/components/pdf/ee104_eeu_eb_dne.pdf
at 1$ if you buy 1000 at a time. maybe 50 of those needed. let's say roughly 2-300$ for the main electronics. then the supporting electronics, some simple bussbars, water cooling bar and fittings, PCB, base board and thermoplastic lid etc.. say 500$ total cost? profitable at 800$ in volume maybe..

more importantly I don't think you need 1000amps continuous power. 300V 500A is more than fine for instance. that's almost 200 ponies and I figure the chinese could spit those out for 500$ retail. I would buy one

where it really gets interesting is when it's combined with DCDC and a recharger in a sub 1000$ package. that would be something and that's what we need electronics wise

Dan





> [email protected] wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Morgan LaMoore wrote:
> 
> >Those are IGBTs; they don't go in parallel very well because tiny
> >manufacturing differences will make some take well more than their
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> [email protected] wrote:
> 
> >and I suppose including a DC - DC converter either inside or as a package
> >would be a plus. In terms of a recharger, that seems to get a bit more
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

ok old fashioned  but it's not so much old fashioned as it was always 
wrong. imagine your pc in separate decks...

if' hifi' was burdened by rational thought it would be all cheap digital 
components, digital wiring and the good digital amplifier in the 
speakers. closed loop too.
I mean no offense, just telling the truth. don't shoot the messenger

to me it's more than a little obvious that controller, 12v and charger 
should be one

Dan



> Michael Barkley wrote:
> 
> >Call me old fashioned, but I still like my home stereo
> >to be in component sections, IE: Receiver, amp, tape
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

In a conventional system I too agree replaceable modules is best. But I
can see that combining things to save silicone and reduce weight may be
a great advantage to.

I have been playing around with a few unconventional design ideas,
mostly centered around LiFePo4 cells
1) pack slices. a 300V battery slice with bidirectional,
parallelable dc-dc.
This serves as the charger with string balancing because with
the main breaker off, DC applied to the mains is converted and passed to
the battery slice. Each slice gets what it needs and has internal
balancing circuitry.
This serves as the controller or at least the dc link
voltage part of an AC controller, if each slice has it's own inductor
and can put out 100A @ 170V(for dc) or 100A @ 300V(AC) AND can serve as
the REGEN controller to.
This allows expanding the pack without changing system
voltage. change them like tires on a college student budget. ie Buy 4 of
the 9.2ah slices to start, add 2 slices per year as needed and you
never have to replace them all at once.
Multiple taps on the dc-dc output 12V and 42V for the legacy
systems and the electric power steering and brake booster.

2) A non-dissipative battery balancer that consists of a shared
toroid dc-dc converter using QR-ZVS(Quasi-resonant ZeroVoltSwitching)
This converter has 6 - 3.4 volt sides and one 12V/42V side. The
12V/42Volt side serves as an isolated bus allowing the transfer of power
between modules while providing the 12V and 42V we will need. Since this
system is geared more towards group 24 sized modules ([email protected]
[email protected]) each 12V/42V side only puts out 15-20A max, keeping the
whole circuit in single TO220 sized silicon. Since a whole system has at
least 10 modules, this gives us the 50-100A needed for 12V loads. The
dc-dc by being isolated and bidirectional, becomes the balancer during
charge.

3) For the lead consumer, my quick-charge system. A mixture of Lee
Harts battery balancer and a fancy(More complicated, less reliable,
advance features) PFC control board. The idea is to control the pfc
charger and connect it to any contiguous sub-string of batteries. For
you computer freaks, you will recognize the divide and conquer
algorithm. Charge whole pack until done. If battery i reaches cutoff,
then charge battery 'first' to i-1 until done then charge i+1 to 'last'
until done. When last = first = i, done = true. (there is a lot more to
this!, IUI, phases, Approach control, Wh counting, Charge Estimation,
Telemetry...)

_______________________________________________
For subscription options, see
http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Morgan LaMoore wrote:
> >> Those are IGBTs; they don't go in parallel very well...
> 
> Dan Frederiksen wrote:
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Dan Frederiksen wrote:
> > ok old fashioned  but it's not so much old fashioned as it was always
> > wrong. imagine your pc in separate decks...
> >
> ...


----------

