# Different methods? Any experimentation?



## MJ Monterey (Aug 20, 2009)

As a do it yourself site we tend to be focused on things we can do in our own garages. Most here do not have million dollar expense budgets. We tend to get things done with what is available today and push forward on what we would like tomorrow. Like public charging stations or at least how to get the boss to put one in at work.

Rotary Motors: A spinning electric motor gives spinning energy that can be transferred easily and efficiently to road wheels. Especially if you are converting an existing internal combustion engine car that has a rotory output engine. Unless you personally are going to pay to retrofit millions of miles of roads with steel bars and magnets or other materials so that we can do a magnetic accelerator I would guess interest here is low.

Fly wheel energy storage: By the time the flywheel has enough kinetic energy to restart a car I do not want it any where near me. Sorry a wreck with one of those is just plain scary.

Non-Pneumatic tyres (tires states-side) are not legal on the road in the U.S. It is a long standing law that you are welcome to pursue changing as long as your new allowed tires do not destroy our failing infrastructure any quicker.

Lifting Aerodynamics is typically equated with instability at freeway speeds. In the states some Lincoln cars lower via the airspring suspension to lower drag and increase stability. You will find people retrofitting air dams and logical aero mods. But again most do not have the resources do drive large changes in their chosen conversions

Aero dynamics is a great field of study. Unfortunately I can not afford a wind tunnel and all the equipment that goes in it.

If you want to check out how to get things done in todays world continue to wander around and gather info. If you want to fantasize about a future society with maglev cars and such this is not the site. But feel free to stop by for a reality check.....

One persons opinion in sunny California.....


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## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

colombo said:


> ...
> Are conventional rotary motors the only answer?


What else comes close to the utility and efficiency of a rotary motor?




colombo said:


> Hard connection mechanical transmision of power, are there any different methods being considered?


Same question: what other methods of coupling between motor and transmission are there? I mean, EVs already use the viscous fluid coupling of a torque converter, belt drive, clutch, etc... What am I missing here?




colombo said:


> Most efficient motor speeds and the ability to leave the motor unloaded but spinning like a flywheel to conserve power draw at stop and starts?


Depends on the motor technology. For a DC motor it's a high enough RPM to draw the minimum amount of current necessary to sustain the vehicle's speed. For an AC induction motor it is the RPM/loading that results in the power factor closest to unity. 

As far as keeping the motor spinning for the flywheel effect... apply some simple physics to see why the rotational inertia of the motor is no match for the inertia of the vehicle itself. Maybe if you spun the motor at 10krpm or more you could store enough energy in inertia to make it worthwhile, but then you would have to squander all of it, and some, in the higher reduction geartrain.




colombo said:


> Battery technology seems prohibitively expensive for experimental work.


Depends on what you're testing... if it's "how far can I drive until my batteries are totally dead" then, yes, it's very expensive. LFP cells, though, are cost competitive with gasoline even now, so I don't see what your issue is.




colombo said:


> Any thinking or work along the lines of non-pneumatic tyres for less rolling resistance? Lift generating aerodynamics?


Non-pneumatic tires, huh? Like, say, on a train? One of the reasons trains have such good efficiency is their low-friction "tires", but it's also one of the reasons it takes several kilometers for them to come to a stop. Also, real roads have potholes, bumps, etc. that need a tire (or tyre) with some measure of compliance to provide a ride that isn't tooth-rattling (literally).

Lift generating aerodynamics are a bad idea for three reasons: 1) it takes power to generate lift! If it didn't then airplanes would spontaneously leap into the air!; 2) The laws of thermodynamics say that whatever benefit you get from decreased rolling resistance is more than offset by the increased drag from an airfoil; 3) using lift to unload a vehicle makes it less stable at highway speeds...




colombo said:


> This is an interesting and great site but I may be in the wrong place, is there a more experimental site I should look for?


You may just be in the wrong place. You might find more like-minded folks at http://www.overunity.com/ ...


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## dataman19 (Oct 7, 2009)

MJ Monterey -
.. I guess my "Nuclear Powered" Steam acr would be too technical too????
..
LOL...
..
Your comments about practicallity anf form and function are right on...
..
But without the dreamers we would still be running around in skins and grunting..
..
Imagination gives us the arts, literature, and yeas imagination motivated us to put men in space.
..
This same imagination gave us the modern automobile, submarines and freeze dried foods..
..
Not to mention medicines, and all those electronic gadgets that we just cannot live without...
..
The reality check is for the status quo - I prefer the pseudo reality of an enriched sociaety where imagination is encouraged and nurtured to give rise to the gifted minds of the future..
..
Putting super conductor magnets in the road bed sounds good to me...
..
In fact I'll contribute $5.00 right now - what is a good paypal account to send the money to.
..
dataman19


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## MJ Monterey (Aug 20, 2009)

dataman19 said:


> MJ Monterey -
> But without the dreamers we would still be running around in skins and grunting..
> dataman19


Agreed Dataman, 
We need dreamers to dream the way. We also need doers to achieve the dream. I personally hope to dabble in both categories.

Even as doers we are dreamers. We have visions of 200 pound (or less) battery packs that will give us 400 mile driving radii.

We have dreams of controllers that deliver 2k Amps at 300 volts. And I applaud Tesseract and Qer in their pursuit of their dreams/visions.

Vblocher and Dimitri making available a cost effective BMS is an ongoing dream that I follow with great interest. And encourage the dream.

Each of these are steps forward on the path that yields greater dreams of many. 

My long term EV dream includes a hand sculpted body with internal tube frame that can go 100 mile on one charge. If I live long enough to see superconductor magnets in the road way, I will be happy to adopt that technology into my design.

My cave and rocks are calling. Maybe I can actually get the rock to stay on the stick this time......

Stuck some place between a cave man and astronaut
Jack


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## dataman19 (Oct 7, 2009)

Touche' MJ..
..
I bow to your verbage... Not a bad speech too...
..
dataman19


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## colombo (Nov 27, 2009)

Considering the responses and after further looking around this site I think I will be heading elsewhere. It will not be that overunity thing recomended.
The electric motor does seem to be the best so far but I plan on exploring some other possibilities like solenoid pressurized accumulators, maybe even high frequency demand generated steam, unfortunately I can find little information on the ford designed accumulator system so will probably be using alot of old gm hydrostarter info with the possibility of a tube frame that doubles as a resevoir. I take it sterling engines are a no no here. Not really interested in maglev but I will probably consider magnetic couplings and look further into magnetic clutches as I like there tolerance of missalignment and vibration reduction, the no contact surface and no wear aspects also appeal to me. Thermodynamics is thermodynamics so no lift, saved some time there thanks. I tend to work not only out of a barn but on a low budget so I don't understand the need for a wind tunnel when I can tape some string to the surfaces I want to evaluate and have a friend video tape the flow patterns from another vehicle. As for the solid tires (hope I spelled tires right this time) I wasn't talking about steel tires. On a light vehicle that would have a very low unsprung weight it seemed possible. At least a better idea than those golf cart tires without a DOT stamp they allow on some roads here in florida. Does anyone know of car type rims to mount motorcycle tires on?
I guess I don't want a kit of expensive (overpriced) parts from someone else where there are only minor variations in the final design. Heck the internal combustion crowd is up to 6 cycle engines just gotta find some people who enjoy new ideas.


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## dataman19 (Oct 7, 2009)

You forgot to include the buclear powered automobile concept.
..
I think the one who comes up with a decent compact reactor design that uses re cycled watch faces as a source of radiation would clean up.
..
Or at least have the potential to literally blow evey one else away...
...
Which reminds me of the Michel Nesmith Movie of the 1980's
..
The Neighborhood Tactical Nuke... The commercial started out with:::
"What spoils a good neighborhood ??? - NEIGHBORS!!!"
Then Michael comes on screen and touts:::
"Are You Mad?, Are You Really Mad?" Then he says "You Need Neighborhood Nuclear Superiority!" Then they show the family stangind with dark goggles on and the smoky wind blasting by....
..
Or how about a Hydrogen car - OOOPS - We already did that (our Hydrogen F150 project)...
.
Keep on plugging - Some day one of you will find the golden goose and the Bio Fusion 6000 (of Back to the future Fame) will become a reality.
...
Like I said - Keep on plugging - I'm pullin for ya.
...
dataman19


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## Voltswagen (Nov 13, 2008)

Columbo
Pay a visit to your local Salvage Yard and pickup some "Spare Tire Doughnuts" from wrecks.
They are more narrow than a standard rim and should suit your needs to mount a motorcycle tire on. But bear this in mind....the more narrow the tire....the less contact with the pavement....the less stability on turns.

Thermodynamics?  I think you mean Aerodynamics when referring to lift.
And yes. its a tradeoff of Physics. When Paul MacCready was designing the Gossamer Albatross he labored for days just on paper trying to find that happy place between lift and drag. A miscalculation on either side and his human pedal powered plane would fall into the ocean.
Physics is an unforgiving bitch.

Good Luck to you Buddy


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## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

colombo said:


> Considering the responses and after further looking around this site I think I will be heading elsewhere. It will not be that overunity thing recomended.


Yeah, that was a bit sarcastic of me... sorry for that. Oh, and I wasn't trying to correct your spelling of tyres, rather acknowledging the British spelling of the word.

Anyway, I'm all for thinking outside the box. The Soliton1 controller is proof of that! However, nothing about the Soliton1 is different/experimental just for the novelty factor. Even the waves in the cooling fins are to maximize the effectiveness of impingement cooling.

See, what you have to do is take a seemingly crazy idea - like using a solenoid pressurized accumulator to store energy - and then _test_ it. 

As for the precise topics that are acceptable here, well, I'm not a moderator but, yeah, we do like to keep the focus on _electric_ cars.

Perhaps EcoModder has the broader scope you are looking for? 

http://ecomodder.com/forum/




colombo said:


> Heck the internal combustion crowd is up to 6 cycle engines just gotta find some people who enjoy new ideas.


The Crower engine... yeah, interesting idea, that one. Injecting water into the cylinder on the fifth stroke and dispensing with the radiator. There's a few practical issues with materials engineering there, but whatever increases the temperature differential in a heat engine will improve its efficiency.

So, I guess I'm saying as long as your ideas aren't totally divorced from reality (i.e. - overunity) and you don't spew endless streams of them without at least giving them a first pass evaluation for "does this make any sense thermodynamically?" (and they pertain to electric vehicles) then sure, share away.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

Space saver spares are not a good idea for continuous road use. If you wnat narrow tyres then use motor bike tyres or Citroen 2CV tyres if your vehicle is lightweight enough.

Solid tyres are a non starter. Apart from the discomfort they have poor road holding as they cannot conform to the road surface as easily as a pnumatic tyre.
Also they tend to develop flat spots when they are left standing and at any useful road speed with a car type load or more they will over heat. Pnumatic tyres allow heat dissipation through the convection of the air inside and so can loose heat and control its build up. The whole tyre and the air inside will warm up together. In a solid tyre the core of the rubber will overheat due to the continuous rolling compression but it is unable to evenly disperse and loose that heat. TYhis reslutls in uneven melting of the interior of the tyre which then causes the tread to become lumpy and then break away from the rest of the tyre.

Back in the 50's and 60's when some heavy haulage trailers still had solid tyres they would melt and shed rubber at less then 10mph if the sun was shining.


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## Voltswagen (Nov 13, 2008)

Woodsmith
The suggestion was not to use the Doughnut tire itself but rather the *rim* for mounting a motorcycle tire. The rims are DOT certified, the tires are also DOT certified but for speeds less than 55mph and suggested temporary use.

Roy


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