# Kelly HSE blown Up



## major (Apr 4, 2008)

pedm said:


> My Kelly HSE 14801 for SepEx (kostov 9'' 120v). Blown up from the inside...  what could it be?....
> <snip>
> I see people complaining about his controllers. Or it was my fault?.....


Too bad pedm 

That does seem to happen with his controllers too often. I would not consider it your fault from what you've said and from the appearance of your conversion. I would not attempt a repair to the controller. Send it back to Kelly and insist they make it right.

Also, F1 and F2 need be powered on the motor for it to function. Do not attempt to run the motor without proper power to the field (F1, F2).

Good luck,

major


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## Ziggythewiz (May 16, 2010)

Did you precharge?


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## pedm (May 2, 2011)

major said:


> Too bad pedm
> 
> That does seem to happen with his controllers too often. I would not consider it your fault from what you've said and from the appearance of your conversion. I would not attempt a repair to the controller. Send it back to Kelly and insist they make it right.
> 
> ...


Thanks Major,






It worked with the 12v PWR. I also changed the programing to 20% no regen. But after applying the 120v it started to burn from the inside again . 

Now I have to call some friends to help to push the car for 5 meters into the garage. Thinking the positive way, at least it is at home.


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## pedm (May 2, 2011)

It has a precharge resitance. That came with the HSE assembly:


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## pedm (May 2, 2011)

Ziggythewiz said:


> Did you precharge?


It happens when the capacitors are not fully charged? 

I connected the positive terminal of DC/DC converter to the controller terminal...  that could cause this to happens. 

I had the DC/DC + connection to the red arrow (at the fuse) and before making that test I changed to the green arrow(controller terminal):










Maybe this change was fatal to the controller.

When it was at the fuse the 12v Battery was always charging, to avoid that I changed to near the contactor to be sure that it just start to charge after turning the key on. Maybe I made a big mistake. So It was charging the battery instead of the capacitors?


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## Ziggythewiz (May 16, 2010)

pedm said:


> It happens when the capacitors are not fully charged?


Just a possibility. The current slam w/o precharge certainly isn't good for a controller; shouldn't blow it just once, but one of few faults I could think of in a non/low load condition. Also, if it's a manual precharge it would be more likely forgotten after a quick run into the house.

Is the precharge always on then? If so the DC-DC would not be switched as you thought, but always sort of on.


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## pedm (May 2, 2011)

Ziggythewiz said:


> Is the precharge always on then? If so the DC-DC would not be switched as you thought, but always sort of on.


No, precharge is only on when I switched the car key, and the contractor closes.


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

pedm said:


> No, precharge is only on when I switched the car key, and the contractor closes.


So you have another contactor?


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## Ziggythewiz (May 16, 2010)

Precharge is what happens before the contactor closes. From the image it appears you have the precharge resistor hardwired across the contactor, so unless you have a secondary contactor that engages before that one, it's always precharging.


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## pedm (May 2, 2011)

major said:


> So you have another contactor?


No, only the one you see on the photo closes when I turn the PWR key on.

So precharge is made inside the controller? And what could that DC/DC converter caused?


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

pedm said:


> No, only the one you see on the photo closes when I turn the PWR key on.


If that is the case then the resistor always passes potential to the controller (and your other device---converter). I wonder if the resistor is still functioning


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

pedm said:


> So precharge is made inside the controller? And what could that DC/DC converter caused?


I don't think so. It appears that the green thing is the precharge resistor wired across the contacts (power terminals) of the contactor.

Ref: http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showthread.php?t=25419


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## pedm (May 2, 2011)

Ziggythewiz said:


> Precharge is what happens before the contactor closes. From the image it appears you have the precharge resistor hardwired across the contactor, so unless you have a secondary contactor that engages before that one, it's always precharging.


So it was always precharging.


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## pedm (May 2, 2011)

major said:


> I don't think so. It appears that the green thing is the precharge resistor wired across the contacts (power terminals) of the contactor.
> 
> Ref: http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showthread.php?t=25419


Yes it is a 2Khom/20W precharge resistor that came with the kelly assembly.


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## pedm (May 2, 2011)

major said:


> If that is the case then the resistor always passes potential to the controller (and your other device---converter). I wonder if the resistor is still functioning


Yes, I do have to measure the resistor before installing a new controller.


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## Ziggythewiz (May 16, 2010)

IMMIC your DC-DC is always getting 6 mA, so if that's not enough to run itself and charge the AUX Batt it would prevent the controller from precharging at all, and would likely demand it's own current surge when the contactor closes, in addition to the surge in the controller. That may be what flipped the breaker. The controller would have been hit by the full inrush when you turned the key, and again the second time. I don't think doing that a few times should have been enough to let the magic smoke out, but I don't know that controller.


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## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

pedm said:


> ...
> I connected the positive terminal of DC/DC converter to the controller terminal...  that could cause this to happens.
> 
> I had the DC/DC + connection to the red arrow (at the fuse) and before making this 5 km trip I changed to the green arrow(controller terminal):


Well there you go... by moving the positive connection for the dc/dc converter to the B+ terminal on the Kelly you totally defeated the precharge resistor. Every time you turned on the controller after that you slammed the input capacitors with a *huge* inrush of current. This can physically damage the capacitors by causing the foil inside them to literally jump. It also excites any stray inductance in the dc link causing a huge voltage spike that zaps the power semiconductors (the likely cause here).

So, time to buy a new controller as Kelly is unlikely to honor the warranty on this one.

P.S. - I like the new avatar, maj... Lightning on the Salt Flats... whodathunkit?


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

pedm said:


> So it was always precharging.


If nothing else was connected to the circuit after the precharge resistor, then the controller capacitors would have remained charged all the time. However since you connected the converter in parallel with the controller, the supply (battery) was always connected to it thru the resistor. The converter was attempting to keep your 12V battery charged so I imagine drawing some amount of current into the high side of the converter (120V). This current was going thru the resistor, which by the Kelly document is 2K, 20W. That is capable of only 100mA continuous. That's why I asked if it was still functioning.


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

Tesseract said:


> (the likely cause here).


Let's see if the resistor is OC. If it is still 2K, then the converter connection is unlikely the cause of the failure.

From post #1, I suspected another cause 



> P.S. - I like the new avatar, maj... Lightning on the Salt Flats... whodathunkit?


I finally figured out how to paste a picture in there


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## Ziggythewiz (May 16, 2010)

I don't see why the resistor would have failed. It should be passing 6 mA continuous, not enough to damage it and likely not enough to feed the DC-DC and the controller caps.


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

Ziggythewiz said:


> I don't see why the resistor would have failed. It should be passing 6 mA continuous, not enough to damage it and likely not enough to feed the DC-DC and the controller caps.


You're right, kinda. 60mA for 120V/2K, right? But within the 20W rating. So, then there would have been some charge on the controller caps depending on the current the converter was drawing. 

pedm should not have wired the converter where he did. But I don't see that as the certain cause for the controller failure.


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## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

major said:


> Let's see if the resistor is OC. If it is still 2K, then the converter connection is unlikely the cause of the failure.
> 
> From post #1, I suspected another cause


The reason why I'm fairly certain that connecting the dc/dc converter after the precharge resistor killed the controller is because most switchmode power supplies will operate in "hiccup" mode if connected to their supply voltage through the typical value precharge resistor (ie - 0.5k to 2k). The precharge resistor charges up the dc/dc converter's input capacitor, too, and when it hits a certain voltage the PWM chip will turn on and rapidly consume all of the stored charge in the capacitors in both the dc/dc converter and the controller. This cycling repeats until the resistor burns out and/or the main contactor is closed to drive the car.

Did you have another scenario in mind?



major said:


> I finally figured out how to paste a picture in there


File under: "Old Dogs Learning New Tricks"


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

Tesseract said:


> Did you have another scenario in mind?


Made by Kelly 



pedm said:


> I was thinking about many possibilities to have caused this:
> - Because the regen function was activated, and the car was sliding back, pressing the throttle might have shorted something?
> <snip>
> - I live on the top of a hill, it was taking 120 amps continuously to climb during 3 minutes before arriving home. Turning back on with the controller hot maybe have caused any problem.


Here's a couple. Kelly didn't account for plugging. And/or 120A for 3 minutes is too close for an 800A Kelly controller.

Called me a dog, and an old one. Thanks


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## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

major said:


> Made by Kelly


No Comment... 



major said:


> Here's a couple. Kelly didn't account for plugging. And/or 120A for 3 minutes is too close for an 800A Kelly controller.


hmmm... plugging from the car rolling backwards? The tires *should* chirp before the motor generates enough current/torque to cook the diodes inside the controller... "Should" being the operative word here...

Strictly anecdotally, I've heard that the latest Kelly's are much improved in the claimed vs. actual ratings department but, sadly, not much improved in the reliability department. In the spirit of Mythbusters, I'll agree this one is "plausible".




major said:


> Called me a dog, and an old one. Thanks


The dog part was actually a compliment. In my special little universe, anyway.


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## pedm (May 2, 2011)

Finally kelly replyed to my e-mail  :


> please don't connect the DC/DC positive on the B+ terminal.
> It should be connected to the terminal of power fuse holder.


I measured the precharge resistor, and it is still alive:









They want me to send it back to their factory to double check it, so that we can find out what was the problem. 

Before the Fuse I have a circuit breaker. 

I usually turned the circuit breaker on before the power switch. And the Power switch off before the circuit breaker off. 

You guys are helping me a lot on solving this problem. Thank you!


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## pedm (May 2, 2011)

I received the new controller.

First the car did not reaches 50A ( rated at 300 A constant and 800 peak).

And today I felt a lot of "hiccups" 39A max.

I still can´t move the car to the garage because it is not able to climb the hill. It just stops at the middle punching 39A.

I tested with a filed current of 8A, 15A but the armature current is always the same: 49 or 39A maximum. 

I changed to 25% and 50% of motor and battery current. On 50% I started to feel stronger "hiccups". 

I disabled the regen, all I want now is the car to work again... 

Also the battery terminal bolts are getting small white dots... Seams like a chemical reaction.

The motor is a Kostov 9'' SepEX. Does the problem affected the motor?


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## DavidDymaxion (Dec 1, 2008)

Pedm: I have the 1000A version of your controller, powering an 11 inch Kostov Sepex. It was painful to watch the video and read about the problem!


My Kelly will pump current through the field 100% of the time, even when the motor is stopped, foot off the accelerator, or foot on the brake. You should be sure the field current is either low enough to not overheat the fields, or better yet put an electric cooling fan on the motor so it is always getting cooling air.
It wasn't instrumented well, so I can't vouch for the actual number, but I have run my Kelly and motor at the 1000A setting -- the car was fast enough I believe it could be accurate. I have run the car full out for about 40 seconds, the controller was fine.
I had heard that Kellys run hot. Mine sits on a huge 11 inch x 17 inch (28 x 43 cm) heat sink, with a huge fan blowing on it. It has always been cool to the touch, I can't detect that the controller heats up at all, so I haven't been using the fan.
39 Amps is barely enough to turn the motor in neutral, no surprise you can't get it to drive.
There is a small chance you cooked something in your motor, particularly if it doesn't have extra cooling -- have you spun up the motor with a 12V battery? Be sure to do both the field and the armature, connect the field first and disconnect it last.
Get a clamp on current meter and check the field actually has current -- my Kelly always powers the field so you should be able to see this even if the motor isn't turning.
Why not go to 100% current? You could use your clamp on ammeter to make sure the current stays at a low enough level.
39A sounds more like a field current maximum -- just to be sure is that number battery or armature Amps?
I'd suggest disabling regen until you get the forward motion thing sorted out.



pedm said:


> I received the new controller.
> 
> First the car did not reaches 50A ( rated at 300 A constant and 800 peak).
> 
> ...


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## somanywelps (Jan 25, 2012)

DavidDymaxion said:


> Pedm: I have the 1000A version of your controller, powering an 11 inch Kostov Sepex.


How's that working out?

Voltage and which K11 was it based off of?


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## Stiive (Nov 22, 2008)

pedm said:


> It has a precharge resitance. That came with the HSE assembly:


From the looks of the picture, that looks like an AC fuse... Probably not adequately rated to your DC pack, created an arc, and that's why your controller blew and not the fuse.
Also that contactor looks suspiciously like a 96V contactor i have previously used... what is you battery pack voltage? That may not be adequate either.

Is this entire assembly from Kelly? And it just comes exposed like that?


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## pedm (May 2, 2011)

DavidDymaxion said:


> My Kelly will pump current through the field 100% of the time, even when the motor is stopped, foot off the accelerator, or foot on the brake. You should be sure the field current is either low enough to not overheat the fields, or better yet put an electric cooling fan on the motor so it is always getting cooling air.


I measured the Field current and it was always 100% on. When I configured Field current for 20% it was 8 Amps and 40% it was 15 Amps. But I don't have a motor cooling system. Maybe the motor could be getting too much hot. But the battery current doesn't passes 50A.



DavidDymaxion said:


> It wasn't instrumented well, so I can't vouch for the actual number, but I have run my Kelly and motor at the 1000A setting -- the car was fast enough I believe it could be accurate. I have run the car full out for about 40 seconds, the controller was fine.


You can follow the project here:
http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showthread.php?t=58382&highlight=clio+2000
and here:
http://eletrificar.com/EV/
When I get some time I will take more photos of the actual config.

I fixed the cables under the car, that is the only difference, I was thinking, maybe it was too tight... also it was at rain and sun during 3 months (waiting for the controller).

I had heard that Kellys run hot. Mine sits on a huge 11 inch x 17 inch (28 x 43 cm) heat sink, with a huge fan blowing on it. It has always been cool to the touch, I can't detect that the controller heats up at all, so I haven't been using the fan.
I have 2 fans that came with the controller assembly.



DavidDymaxion said:


> 39 Amps is barely enough to turn the motor in neutral, no surprise you can't get it to drive.
> It was pushing 118A (battery ammeter) on 23% of motor and battery current. It was working fine.
> Now at 25% it shows 39Amps.
> 
> ...


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## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

pedm said:


> Are you sure about the fuse? It is 400A Fuse.


No, that is not an AC fuse. It looks like a type ANL fuse, which is only good for 32VDC. It's most commonly used in high power car audio installations. It is not a good choice of fuse for the application, but it's also not the problem here.



pedm said:


> You know what ... I'm getting discouraged. The car went without any problem (8A 190A armature and field). After the burst controller is only given problems. I am very sad and down with this project.


Are you sure the throttle range is calibrated correctly? Are you sure the throttle is commanding maximum current when floored? Better double check those settings...


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## DavidDymaxion (Dec 1, 2008)

I have the same setup where Kelly does the precharge resistor, contactor, etc. The contactor looks to me like a clone of an Albright SW-200. I have run ~1000A and 96V so far, so I think the basic components are up to it.

Pedm: I think you should put a big heat sink on the bottom, the fans on top are not enough. Folks experienced with Kellys say that is important to do. Check out this thread:
http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forum...ood-nowi-59431.html?highlight=Kelly+Good+Now?

somanywelps: I had the old Kostov 11 inch sepex motor, ran it on 48V direct, 48V with my homemade controller, 96V direct (very briefly), and 96V with the Kelly controller. The Kelly has worked well so far (but I've only used it a little bit). My homemade controller damaged the motor through a controller fault and 1000A with the Kelly finished it off (I don't blame the motor, I blame me for making a controller without enough smarts). I have a Kostov K11 Alpha, sepex wound, on order that should arrive within the next month, that I plan to run with 144V of lithiums.

The new motor has better commutator retention, higher voltage, higher continuous power rating, better cooling... It all looks good.

So far I like my Kelly sepex. I'll report more when I get everything back together again.


somanywelps said:


> How's that working out? Voltage and which K11 was it based off of?


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## Stiive (Nov 22, 2008)

pedm said:


> Are you sure about the fuse? It is 400A Fuse.
> Yes this is the HSE assembly.
> The system is 120v.
> I can't see any arc on the system, because I was in the car, but the "hiccup" I felt could be provoked as an arc. I am going to use a camera to see if there is an arc.


The DC voltage rating of the fuse is important when something goes wrong. If the fuse is spec'd to 120VAC it cannot handle 120VDC. By this I mean when the fuse pops due to a 400A current, the DC voltage can arc across the fuse and continue to provide power to your controller even though something has gone wrong, resulting in damage to your controller. The fuse wont arc in normal use, only once its blown. A properly rated (voltage&current) fuse should always protect your equipment when something goes wrong.

Changing the fuse won't fix any of your problems, but if another problem arises, will probably save this new controller of yours.




Tesseract said:


> No, that is not an AC fuse. It looks like a type ANL fuse, which is only good for 32VDC.



I meant that he rather spec'd the voltage of the fuse for AC not DC. Hence it prob is only like a 32VDC fuse and is unacceptable. 
I hadn't actually read the rest of his problems, just saying that the original controller probably blew up because the fuse arced rather than just popping the fuse.


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## SandRailEV (May 11, 2012)

Stiive said:


> The DC voltage rating of the fuse is important when something goes wrong. If the fuse is spec'd to 120VAC it cannot handle 120VDC. By this I mean when the fuse pops due to a 400A current, the DC voltage can arc across the fuse and continue to provide power to your controller even though something has gone wrong, resulting in damage to your controller. The fuse wont arc in normal use, only once its blown. A properly rated (voltage&current) fuse should always protect your equipment when something goes wrong.
> 
> Changing the fuse won't fix any of your problems, but if another problem arises, will probably save this new controller of yours.
> 
> ...


 
He never mentioned that the fuse blew.. The controller smoked internally but the fuse was still good... Thus, an arching fuse was not the fault....


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## Stiive (Nov 22, 2008)

SandRailEV said:


> He never mentioned that the fuse blew.. The controller smoked internally but the fuse was still good... Thus, an arching fuse was not the fault....


Again, I didn't read the whole thread but I'd still recommend adequately sizing the fuses. I don't think anyone can argue against that.

If the fuse didn't blow, perhaps 400A is too high. Maybe I should read the thread and see exactly what blew.


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## pedm (May 2, 2011)

Tesseract said:


> Are you sure the throttle range is calibrated correctly? Are you sure the throttle is commanding maximum current when floored? Better double check those settings...


Here is my configuration:

















































Hand Made diagram:
http://eletrificar.com/EV/2012/DiagramaClio.jpg

Last fotos:
http://eletrificar.com/EV/2012/

I tried also 100% at max motor and battery current. The system started to take up from 50A near to 130A. But it takes a lot of time to archive 130A, very slowly. The car did not climb the hill Near to 100A (nor even move, and hand brake was down) it started to have small hiccups like it wanted to go to max power. The field was between 15 and 7 A (not stable), Sometimes it gets stable at 7A (this at 20% of field current) When I change to bigger than 40% It starts to smoke (already tested before - fist problem) seams like this motor don't like more than 15A on the field. I tested at night with my wife, to look for arcs and could not see any.

Could the motor gets rusted from the inside? It was at rain and sun a long time.

I measured the potbox and I can get between 4,7 kΩ and 2Ω. Maybe I should change the config from 20% start position and 80% end position.



DavidDymaxion said:


> Pedm: I think you should put a big heat sink on the bottom, the fans on top are not enough. Folks experienced with Kellys say that is important to do. Check out this thread:
> http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums...ly+Good+Now?


Thanks David, it really gets hot from under the controller.
The motor have a big fan from inside, I can see it from the openings.



Stiive said:


> If the fuse didn't blow, perhaps 400A is too high. Maybe I should read the thread and see exactly what blew.


Yes, when the car was able to at least climb a hill it was bellow 200A. The controller blow up because of a wrong precharge. I connected the 12v after the precharge resistor, what could cause the controller capacitors to blow up.


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## SandRailEV (May 11, 2012)

It sounds to me like you should test the motor without the controller.

I have a hard time reasoning how or even why a new controller would act like you describe...


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## Coulomb (Apr 22, 2009)

pedm said:


> The field was between 15 and 7 A (not stable), Sometimes it gets stable at 7A (this at 20% of field current) When I change to bigger than 40% It starts to smoke (already tested before - fist problem) seams like this motor don't like more than 15A on the field.


That to me sounds like a big part of your problem. It the field is weak, the motor output will be weak. I'm suspecting a high resistance connection in the field circuit. That would explain the weak motor power, and the smoke when it gets higher field current. Try to figure out exactly where the smoke is coming from; it might well be the high resistance part of the field circuit.

Warning: low field will cause the motor to try to spin very fast. Make sure you have a load on it at all times. If you try to spin it in neutral, it could suddenly spin so fast that the armature flies apart.

Maybe rather than using smoke to find the hot spot, you could leave say 7 A through the field and use a non-contact thermometer to find the hot spot. Start with the field winding terminals on the motor and on the controller.

A strong possibility is that the field connections became corroded over the months in the sun and rain. It may be internal to the motor, or you may be lucky and it's something that is easy to get at.


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## DavidDymaxion (Dec 1, 2008)

My old Kostov 11 sepex was older, bigger, and rewound with some higher temperature wire, so our motors are not directly comparable. I ran 40A on the fields with the motor not spinning and they started smoking. If the motor was spinning steadily (so the internal fan was in use) I could run 40 Amps on the field no problem. You really should run an electric blower to keep the motor cool when it is not turning, especially since Kelly runs the fields all the time.

Is your motor the 96V or 120V version? The curves in the links show field currents from 12 to 35 A for the 120V motor and 10 to 22A for the 96V motor. That makes it sound like running 7A to 15A might be low, but on the other hand you don't want to smoke the fields! You should probably talk to Kostov about that. Kostov says somewhere that a motor spinning fast has something like 3x the cooling of a slower spinning motor. Maybe with better cooling you can get more field current and more torque. There is also a chance the fields are shorted and not giving full magnetic field despite getting 15A.

http://kostov-motors.com/files/productattachments/4a3d5cb93e787d31fd48632570735ce4_N80E01.pdf

http://kostov-motors.com/files/productattachments/4fe8e6e6b3937617e6fd810eb916e2c1_N120E02.pdf

Read #3 carefully below. The Kelly goes from 100% field (15A in Pedm's case) to 1/2 max field (7A in Pedm's case). Despite the config page maybe it's still in field weaking mode. This might be caused by a potentiometer with a bad spot, so the controller thinks you are commanding 90%+. Another thought is maybe the controller is getting so hot it goes into thermal cutback, and that makes it oscillate between 15A and 7A. 

So here are some suggestions:


Add an electric cooling fan to the motor in any case
Are you sure the configuration program parameters are getting written to the controller? Try changing the field to 10A (which would be about 1/2 the heating, heat ~ current^2) and verify that change occurred.
Hold ice in a plastic bag on the bottom of the controller -- if it is a thermal cutback issue it'll be temporarily fixed
If the bottom is hot you definitely want a big heatsink on there. My heatsink must be really working well as I can't feel it heat up at all.
Try a different potentiometer
Measure the resistance of the field with the controller disconnected from the motor. Mine measured close to 1 Ohm. Your number well could be different, but Kostov should be able to tell if it is in the right region. You could also measure Voltage on the field and use V=IR to determine the resistance.
Good luck and hang in there!



pedm said:


>


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## DavidDymaxion (Dec 1, 2008)

I had wanted to ask, when it was working had many regen amps could you get? Thanks.


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## pedm (May 2, 2011)

DavidDymaxion said:


> I had wanted to ask, when it was working had many regen amps could you get? Thanks.


Thanks a lot David. The car climbed the hill today into the garage! 
It was just on first gear like a ICE car. But I made as you said before - use 100% on max motor current and battery current. I was afraid that the controller could explode again because of this, but it was really the precharge problem. Kelly reinforced the interior capacitors, and they might have changed other values like the Throttle up/down rate. That's is why it takes too much time to go to 120 Amps. This value doesn't seams to work. But at least the system looks more stable now.

I used the regen once a time, it was able to regen -10A for less than a second and then turned off and never worked again (using the old controller that have blown) . On the new controller I haven't tried it yet. 

it is the Kostov9'' 120v.



Coulomb said:


> If you try to spin it in neutral, it could suddenly spin so fast that the armature flies apart.


Really, is 7A too low for this motor? I can see in the graphic that it should be up to 10A. Maybe it should be configured at 28% of current field.



Coulomb said:


> A strong possibility is that the field connections became corroded over the months in the sun and rain. It may be internal to the motor, or you may be lucky and it's something that is easy to get at.


Thanks for the precious advice! I found rust on the field terminal cables. Replaced those with new ones. 

Also some battery terminals on the rear pack have rust (it seams like rust):








Maybe I should replace them too.


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## Coulomb (Apr 22, 2009)

pedm said:


> Really, is 7A too low for this motor?


I don't know if it's too low, but it probably won't make the motor fly apart. What I meant was if the field current is intermittent, seen to be fluctuating from 7 A to 15 A, what's to stop it going down to 0 A? Anything less than say 1 A could cause the motor to fly apart; that's what I was trying to say. Hopefully with the corroded field cables replaced, that won't happen.


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## Coulomb (Apr 22, 2009)

pedm said:


> Also some battery terminals on the rear pack have rust (it seams like rust)


That's weird, but it doesn't seem too bad. I don't think it's worth replacing the bolts at this stage. I'm guessing that they're not made of stainless steel, or if they are, that it's poor quality stainless. I'm guessing from the white colour that these are China HiPower cells.


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## pedm (May 2, 2011)

Coulomb said:


> That's weird, but it doesn't seem too bad. I don't think it's worth replacing the bolts at this stage. I'm guessing that they're not made of stainless steel, or if they are, that it's poor quality stainless. I'm guessing from the white colour that these are China HiPower cells.


Yes they are from HiPower. And guess what, I found the problem! 

One of the screws was broken and it produced a lot of heat near the cell:
































Maybe I shouldn't have used the screws that came with the battery pack, they seam really fragile. And they really are...

I am going to replace them for new ones, but maybe copper is better. But this way of connecting battery cells doesn't seam really stable. Small oscillation disconnects, or can create a small gap:









Lucky that the cell is still alive (3.28v). But now I have to find a way to take the rest of the bolt out.


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## Coulomb (Apr 22, 2009)

pedm said:


> I am going to replace them for new ones, but maybe copper is better.


The bolts should not be conducting much of the current, so decent quality stainless steel should be fine.

However, the straps DO carry the traction current, and they look like they might be made of steel. These should be copper, or tin (etc) plated copper. Stainless steel is a terrible conductor of electricity, at traction currents. So I hope I'm wrong about what they're made of.

[ Edit: on closer inspection, they do look like tin-plated copper. ]



> But now I have to find a way to take the rest of the bolt out.


Yes, good luck with that. There are special tools to help with this, I seem to recall. But maybe they are a bit rough for this application.


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## pedm (May 2, 2011)

Coulomb said:


> The bolts should not be conducting much of the current, so decent quality stainless steel should be fine.
> 
> However, the straps DO carry the traction current, and they look like they might be made of steel. These should be copper, or tin (etc) plated copper. Stainless steel is a terrible conductor of electricity, at traction currents. So I hope I'm wrong about what they're made of.


Coulomb, thanks a lot for your advice! I'll do that. I hope that the battery terminal will survive it seams a bit burned on the corner.


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## DavidDymaxion (Dec 1, 2008)

Great news you got the car to move!

You might want to look at what Jack Rickard did ( http://JackRickard.blogspot.com ). He does woven straps instead of solid bars (allows a bit of flex) and lock washers. I think he sells the straps, too.

Going from 15A to 7A might be normal Kelly behavior, as it field weakens by 50%. Pedm were you drawing some load when this happened? On mine, even in neutral I could get it briefly to field weaken if I floored it briefly and spun up the motor. In other words, it didn't take much load, but I did have high field current, too. Now if it fluctuated from 15A to 7A just sitting there doing nothing that would definitely be a problem.


pedm said:


> Coulomb, thanks a lot for your advice! I'll do that. I hope that the battery terminal will survive it seams a bit burned on the corner.


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## pedm (May 2, 2011)

DavidDymaxion said:


> Great news you got the car to move!
> 
> You might want to look at what Jack Rickard did ( http://JackRickard.blogspot.com ). He does woven straps instead of solid bars (allows a bit of flex) and lock washers. I think he sells the straps, too.


Thanks for the advice. I'll find something identical here in Portugal.



DavidDymaxion said:


> Going from 15A to 7A might be normal Kelly behavior, as it field weakens by 50%. Pedm were you drawing some load when this happened? On mine, even in neutral I could get it briefly to field weaken if I floored it briefly and spun up the motor. In other words, it didn't take much load, but I did have high field current, too. Now if it fluctuated from 15A to 7A just sitting there doing nothing that would definitely be a problem.


I was drawing some load, and after that it started to be unstable from 15 to 7A. After a few seconds it remained at 7A during a long period again. 
I tried to use 15A on the field, but it could be changing between 15 A and +-35A (50% field current of Kelly HSE). But that is too near to the limit. So I chosen 20% on the field current. Up to 36A the field started to smoke.


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## pedm (May 2, 2011)

I am continuing this thread at:
http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showthread.php?p=307337&posted=1#post307337

Because the problem is related to the battery terminal now.


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## onegreenev (May 18, 2012)

Here is an image of my Kelly on a huge heat sink. It IS needed. 

Pete 

Shameless plug: It is for sale.


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## pedm (May 2, 2011)

The controller don't even gets hot.

Now I am having another problem with the controller.
Kelly have a great support and they are trying to find the solution. 

But maybe someone have experienced the same problem, so I won't have to sent it back to them again.

The controller is giving an Internal Reset after pressing the throttle and also after getting the green light. The motor don't even spins.

I tested the motor with a 12v battery, and it works.

I tested the PB-6 and got a the precise readings: 1.61 to 4.23 kohms with no OL between, always constant... 

The batteries are discharging for DC/DC and the current field. 

But after pressing the throttle it repeats: No response to the armature. 

Sometimes pressing the throttle will maintain the green light on and not even the Internal Reset error it reports.

I changed all the bolts to the Stainless Steel ones. All are well connected. 

I get a 132V reading. Batteries are discharging -4 Amps to the DC/DC. Controller is emitting -15Amps to the field. 

It worked before... 

"Internal Reset: Reset caused by overcurrent, high battery voltage or low supply voltage . It is normal if occurs occasionally."
What could it be?

I should have ordered series wound motor or a AC one. I can see that sepex is not really the best way to go... 

Thanks,
Pedro


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## onegreenev (May 18, 2012)

What are the settings on the new controller at the moment? What is your supply voltage? if you are using a standard 12 lead acid battery then you may be having the voltage drop enough to kick things out of whack. I have seen it way too often. You think your battery is good but it is not holding a high enough charge. I am currently using a 4 cell Lithium pack for my Aux battery. My normal working lead acid aux battery is not allowing enough to even run the damn controller. When it is all put together I will be ONLY using a DC DC converter for my Aux power.

Pete


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## pedm (May 2, 2011)

onegreenev said:


> What are the settings on the new controller at the moment? What is your supply voltage? if you are using a standard 12 lead acid battery then you may be having the voltage drop enough to kick things out of whack. I have seen it way too often. You think your battery is good but it is not holding a high enough charge. I am currently using a 4 cell Lithium pack for my Aux battery. My normal working lead acid aux battery is not allowing enough to even run the damn controller. When it is all put together I will be ONLY using a DC DC converter for my Aux power.
> 
> Pete


Hi Pete,

Thanks a lot for your reply. Yes the lead acid battery dropped once before. 
Maybe something shorted inside the controller because of the 12v.

Using an external 12v supply the controller gives the same error. 

I am going to ask if kelly can replace it again. 

What type of 12v Aux batteries should be used on a EV conversion?


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## pedm (May 2, 2011)

Sorry the configurations are:

The same as before but now it is at 25% motor and battery current and 50% field current: http://eletrificar.com/EV/2012/ (see at the end of this page)


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## pedm (May 2, 2011)

It gives the same error, but because of:

Something shorted inside the controller maybe because of the low aux 12v battery. It could have disconnected immediately after I turned it on.

When I turn the car key on , the vacuum pump, and the controller connects at the same time. And some times the pump is discharging 50A, and the 12v aux battery as 55Ah. The DC/DC converter sends the amount of current to compensate the diference for the rest of the parts, but not the necessary for the system. So I can see the Touch Screen tuning off (because of low power) and turning back on.

Could this be the reason?


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## DavidDymaxion (Dec 1, 2008)

A pump takes a huge surge of current when it starts, so yes that could be the problem. It should be easy enough to test, disconnect the pump and see if the Kelly is happy.


pedm said:


> It gives the same error, but because of:
> 
> Something shorted inside the controller maybe because of the low aux 12v battery. It could have disconnected immediately after I turned it on.
> 
> ...


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## onegreenev (May 18, 2012)

What is the output voltage of your DC DC converter? What is the output wattage of your DC DC converter? Aux battery seems small. I am currently using 4 100ah LiFePO4 in series for my Aux battery. It provides plenty when needed for the Aux system. If your pump is pushing 50A when turned on that will sag your little Aux and maybe even tax your DC DC enough to cause issues.


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## pedm (May 2, 2011)

DavidDymaxion said:


> It should be easy enough to test, disconnect the pump and see if the Kelly is happy.


Not really, Kelly still respond the same error with a separated 12v external power: Internal Reset.



onegreenev said:


> What is the output voltage of your DC DC converter?.


It is only 20A:
http://kellycontroller.com/hwz-series-dcdc-converter-120v-to-135v-25a-p-112.html
Not sufficient for the vacuum pump, the controller and the rest. 

Maybe the controller did not like this battery and it could have shorted something inside it. Now it just gives the same error: Internal Reset. 
But it should't do this for just a 12v drop.

I was thinking: 
I changed all the HV battery bolts, from aluminium to stainless steel. Could this be the problem? After that I heard something shorting inside the controller, and then It started to give this error all the time. Also at this moment the 12v Battery was low.

Kelly asked me to make the following test before sending it but to them:
http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showthread.php/connect-sepex-motor-seriesi-75803.html
Maybe it will not solve the problem. 
The unstable aux system already seems to have damaged the controller.


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## pedm (May 2, 2011)

Hi,

After a long long time, I finally have the new controller with me. But this time I am afraid to connect it again without replacing the aux battery for a new one. I was thinking about buying a 130Ah gel battery. Because it is cheaper but I am afraid it can go bellow 12v again. Or go for an expensive 12v Litium battery. This battery will be always charged by the DC-DC (13.5v). So it is important to have a BMS system for the 12v aux battery also avoiding it to be overcharged.

After a long period of time I can feel a strange smell on my battery pack. Smells like silicon. HP may have fabricated the white boxes with plastic and white silicone.

The aux battery I was using was a 55Ah AGM. This may have caused the controller blow up. When pressing the break pedal the vacuum pump takes about 40A. Not enough for the rest - controller, lights, BMS ... 

When the battery turned bellow the 9v the controller may have turned OFF and back ON at a milisec. So pre-charge did not occurred at this time because kelly HSE assembly as a direct connection from 12v to the contactor. If you have the 12v power on the contactor it closes and opens if the voltage drops.

So I have to change the HSE assembply to avoid the contactor to close and open before pre-charge on a voltage drop before powering the controller.
OR 
Look for a 150 Ah rated aux battery and be sure that the voltage don't drop bellow 12v. 

Maybe the second thought is more easy to do.


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