# [EVDL] Large Pickup Conversion



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Once again I'm considering converting a large pickup. Something like a 
95 Ford F-250.
One of the reasons I'm considering such a vehicle is that I want a 
useable cargo capacity AFTER converting it. This thing has a base 
payload of 4000 lbs, so I can probably end up with a payload of 1000 lbs 
after conversion - without doing anything special to the brakes or 
suspension. (more if I want to beef up the suspension and brakes.) 
Just not sure if I can wedge all those batteries in places OTHER than in 
the bed!

I've been playing with the calculator at 
http://www.geocities.com/hempev/EVCalculator.html
It has a better selection of components than UVE's EV calculator. Still 
not quite up to date though.
I'm thinking of using a pair of Impulse 9" motors, and that's not one of 
the motor choices, so I did the calcs with a Kostov.
I've found (by lots of web searching) that the Coefficient of drag can 
be around .50, and I'm guessing the frontal area at 36 sq ft.
Haven't found the available gear ratios yet, so left those at the default. 
I also set the Rolling Resistance to .015, as I doubt I'll find LRR 
tires that size!

Seem like using a Z2K and 40 T-145's may give me around a 50 mile range 
at 60mph. (I'm guessing this is to 100% DOD, since the web page doesn't 
say.) So more like a 40 mile useable range.
Not great, but basically useable. It goes up a LOT at lower speeds, 
which are likely for quite a bit of my driving.

I've had people suggest doing an S10 instead, but as far as I can tell, 
you end up with about 0 payload capacity.

Comments, Suggestions, Emus?

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

<<<< I've been playing with the calculator at
http://www.geocities.com/hempev/EVCalculator.html
It has a better selection of components than UVE's EV calculator. Still
not quite up to date though. >>>>

Well, that version of Uve's calculator is mine, so if someone has any 
up-to-date info they would like to add, just email it to me.

<<<< I'm thinking of using a pair of Impulse 9" motors, and that's not one of
the motor choices, so I did the calcs with a Kostov.
I've found (by lots of web searching) that the Coefficient of drag can
be around .50, and I'm guessing the frontal area at 36 sq ft.
Haven't found the available gear ratios yet, so left those at the default.
I also set the Rolling Resistance to .015, as I doubt I'll find LRR
tires that size! >>>>

As you already know, you can do a lot to improve the drag factor 
without altering the sheetmetal - smooth cover to the underside, block 
off the grill, tapered bed cover, etc. High psi truck tires are pretty 
low RR, but you need to look for touring-style tread.

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Hello John,

Sometimes I wish I had a larger rig at times, because I am now running out =

of room. My pickup which is a 77 El Camino has all the batteries -T-145's, =

in the box with another 20 inches left for equipment enclosures.

Install a lift up hatch, so it is easy to reach all the batteries. The =

batteries are under a 1/4 inch thick fiberglass cover which I have at one =

time haul 40 boxes of glaze tiles that are 50 lbs each on top of the batter=
y =

covers.

In my rig there is still 18 inches of room with the cover down and up to 36 =

inches with the cover open.

I am using 30 T-145's with a Zilla 1K. My motor ampere at 30 mph ranges =

from 150 - 200 amps and battery amperes is about 75 amps while I am 1st gea=
r =

which has a overall ratio of 19.5:1 which is about 6000 rpm.

The EV weighs about 7100 lgs and with the glaze tile, it was about 9100 lbs=
, =

I was still be able to keep the motor ampere at 200 amps at 25 mph. This =

unit has a GE 11 motor that normally run at 7100 lbs at 170 volts at 180 =

amps at 50 mph. My range at 50% DOD was exactly 39.5 miles which was not o=
n =

a level road.

I am using ATR 8 ply tires that have a very stiff face that keeps the tire =

round while the side walls pickup the tire deflection. These tires are rate=
d =

at 2650 lbs load rating at 65 lbs.

The suspension system was change to a air suspension system and axles were =

all up graded to 4000 lb thrust rating per wheel.

Every morning a group of us have are morning meeting at the Cross Roads =

Caf=E9, and many of them drive very large HD pickups which there tires are =

higher than my car. They drive as far as 30 miles in from there ranch to =

have coffee here in Montana, no matter what the weather conditions is.

Roland


----- Original Message ----- =

From: "John G. Lussmyer" <[email protected]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, March 05, 2008 9:09 PM
Subject: [EVDL] Large Pickup Conversion


> Once again I'm considering converting a large pickup. Something like a
> 95 Ford F-250.
> One of the reasons I'm considering such a vehicle is that I want a
> useable cargo capacity AFTER converting it. This thing has a base
> payload of 4000 lbs, so I can probably end up with a payload of 1000 lbs
> after conversion - without doing anything special to the brakes or
> suspension. (more if I want to beef up the suspension and brakes.)
> Just not sure if I can wedge all those batteries in places OTHER than in
> the bed!
>
> I've been playing with the calculator at
> http://www.geocities.com/hempev/EVCalculator.html
> It has a better selection of components than UVE's EV calculator. Still
> not quite up to date though.
> I'm thinking of using a pair of Impulse 9" motors, and that's not one of
> the motor choices, so I did the calcs with a Kostov.
> I've found (by lots of web searching) that the Coefficient of drag can
> be around .50, and I'm guessing the frontal area at 36 sq ft.
> Haven't found the available gear ratios yet, so left those at the default.
> I also set the Rolling Resistance to .015, as I doubt I'll find LRR
> tires that size!
>
> Seem like using a Z2K and 40 T-145's may give me around a 50 mile range
> at 60mph. (I'm guessing this is to 100% DOD, since the web page doesn't
> say.) So more like a 40 mile useable range.
> Not great, but basically useable. It goes up a LOT at lower speeds,
> which are likely for quite a bit of my driving.
>
> I've had people suggest doing an S10 instead, but as far as I can tell,
> you end up with about 0 payload capacity.
>
> Comments, Suggestions, Emus?
>
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
> =


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----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Roland Wiench wrote:
> > Sometimes I wish I had a larger rig at times, because I am now running out
> > of room. My pickup which is a 77 El Camino has all the batteries -T-145's,
> > in the box with another 20 inches left for equipment enclosures.
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> [email protected] wrote:
> > <<<< I've been playing with the calculator at
> > http://www.geocities.com/hempev/EVCalculator.html
> > It has a better selection of components than UVE's EV calculator. Still
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> John G. Lussmyer wrote:
> 
> > Once again I'm considering converting a large pickup.
> > Something like a 95 Ford F-250.
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

John,

Why do you say that? The best PU conversions I've seen stash all the batteries under a hydraulicly lifted bed. If it's the suspension you're concerned about, "Add-a-Leaf" kits and heavy-duty shocks are in abundance for small and full-size pickups. They're inexpensive and pretty easy to install. In fact, beefier leaf springs are much better than just upgrading the shocks because you don't have to worry about overloading the shock mounts. This will leave your bed empty and still give you weight capacity. 

You might consider a larger motor than 9" though if you want to haul heavy loads but I feel that you can still have your cake and eat it too. If it's physical hauling space that you're after then yeah, a full size truck will have to be the donor. I'd work like the devil to remove any extraneous weight on one of those. My personal, limited experience with EV's leads me to believe that they're much more purpose built than gas cars. You really have to build them for a primary task to get the best performance out of them. Any device or tool that's designed to do many things usually does all of them poorly and none of them well.

With that in mind, what is the primary purpose of the vehicle- A "dump-runner", or is to be more mixed use like "commuting with occasional hauling"? 


Message: 30
Date: Wed, 05 Mar 2008 20:09:34 -0800
From: "John G. Lussmyer" [email protected]
Subject: [EVDL] Large Pickup Conversion "I've had people suggest doing an S10 instead, but as far as I can tell, 
you end up with about 0 payload capacity." 




Rich A.
Maryland
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/371.html
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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> John G. Lussmyer <[email protected]> wrote:
> > Once again I'm considering converting a large pickup. Something like a
> > 95 Ford F-250.
> > One of the reasons I'm considering such a vehicle is that I want a
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

I have also been considering a full size truck conversion. My thoughts were 
that I could use a 1/2 ton chevy pick-up (1988-1999 version). I haven't 
looked it up yet but I don't think it would be alot heavier than the S-10, 
especially after taking out the larger engine, fuel tank, exhaust, etc. I 
really like a full size cab, seat 3 comfortably. I'm still working on my 
S-10, but I was thinking of getting a 1/2 ton to work on next. What do you 
think about using a S-10 transmission in a truck like this with the warp 9 
motor just like i'm installing in the s-10. I think these trucks were 
fairly aerodynamic ( for a truck) and you could even lower it some to help, 
plus they had a good load capacity ( the WT series already had extra leaf 
springs) So what do you think?

Josh and Jen

www.jcsevparts.com

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Emus,

I'm researching a similar project. Basically, a full size Chevy truck
(Avalanche in this case). One of my reason is, like you, the reason I drive
a truck in the first place is because it fits my needs for a work vehicle.
Payload capacity AFTER conversion is a must, otherwise there's no point in
the project. About 50% of the time I don't need the payload capacity, but
there's no way of predicting WHICH day I'll need it, so I have to drive it
every day. 

Maybe that makes it a bad situation for an EV, but I'm going to do some more
research to find out.

In my case I'll probably beef-up the suspension of my 1500 series truck to
the 2500 series level to handle the extra curb weight and still allow
payload. I'm currently figuring out how many batteries I can likely get in
a set of boxes designed to be slung under the bed.

I'm also thinking that a pair of 9" motors may be the right range of power,
managed by a Zilla that can stage them series/parallel. Seems a bit more
cost effective than the bigger motors that could deliver similar continuous
rated power.

I do have a question for the list, though. I've seen lots of posts
indicating a long lead time for Zilla controllers. I haven't checked with
an official source, but what specifically does "long" mean? 2 months? 6
months? 

Jeff Andre
Chapel Hill, NC





> > Emus wrote:
> 
> > Once again I'm considering converting a large pickup.
> > Something like a
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

See inserts:


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "John G. Lussmyer" <[email protected]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, March 05, 2008 10:48 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Large Pickup Conversion




> > Roland Wiench wrote:
> > > Sometimes I wish I had a larger rig at times, because I am now running
> > > out
> > > of room. My pickup which is a 77 El Camino has all the
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Roland Wiench wrote:
> > The EV Cal is way off for me. At 60 mph it saids it 68 miles which may be
> > close but at 30 mph it saids 138 miles.
> >
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> 
> Once again I'm considering converting a large pickup. Something like a
> 95 Ford F-250.
> One of the reasons I'm considering such a vehicle is that I want a
> useable cargo capacity AFTER converting it. This thing has a base
> payload of 4000 lbs, so I can probably end up with a payload of 1000 lbs
> 
> after conversion - without doing anything special to the brakes or
> suspension. (more if I want to beef up the suspension and brakes.)
> Just not sure if I can wedge all those batteries in places OTHER than in
> the bed!
>

Is it 4WD?

--
Stay Charged!
Hump
"If you don't "believe" you'll make a difference, than you probably never will!" -- Jim Husted


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Tim Humphrey wrote:
> >
> >> Once again I'm considering converting a large pickup. Something like a
> >> 95 Ford F-250.
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Roger Stockton wrote:
> >> I'm thinking of using a pair of Impulse 9" motors
> >>
> >
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

As you probly know, working on a C-10 with a Warp 9 motor and using a C-10 
transmission, the C-10 transmissions mates to a small crank flange on the 
existing engine. The bolt circle is 3 inches on the small crank flange 
while its 3.5 inch on the larger cranks.

GM up to about 80 something, use the large crank flange and change that to 
the small type in the V-6's for some models. This made it easily to install 
a full real main seal instead of a split seal.

I talk to Electro Auto about making me a motor adapter for a early model V-8 
large crank flange pattern and they did not have any patterns at the time 
for it, so I have them give a motor coupler and adapter plate for a 92 V-6 
C-10 transmission which will also bolt up to any early model V-8 engine with 
a Munci, Sagana, Richmond, TH-350 and TH-400 transmissions.

I wanted to be able to use these same type of transmissions on a Warp 9, 
Warp 11 and a GE-11 which I could swap out in a day while doing maintenance 
on one.

I found with that 92 C-10 motor coupler, that it's a 3 inch bolt circle 
which puts the 6 taperlock set screws closer together. The transmission 
pilot shaft cannot go through the motor coupler and insert into the brass 
pilot bushing that is install in the Warps and GE motors.

This is why the Electro Auto coupler design, has the pilot bushing install 
in the end of the motor coupler which pushes the transmission back which 
makes the Electro Auto motor adapter 2.77 inches thick!!!

This would be ok, if you can reposition the motor ahead, so you do not have 
to reposition the transmission cross member and shorten up the drive line.

Also what happens if you position the Warp motors too far ahead, is that the 
clutch mechanism no longer has a mounting area for that clutch ball that is 
normally screw into the engine. You normally tapped the side of the 2 inch 
thick portion of the motor adapter plate and screw in this pivot ball there.

I got rid of all the shift and clutch linkage and install a transmission 
cable shifter and a hydraulic clutch unit.

So I had a local machine shop make me up a taper-lock motor coupler using 
the large flange pattern. Welding on a taper-lock weld on hub does not work 
for the GE motor because the output motor shaft is recess in the a 1 inch 
thick adapter that is part of the motor end bell. These weld-on taper-lock 
units will work for the Warps motor, because the motor shaft is extended out 
from the motor housing.

If you try to install a C-10 transmission with a Warp motor, make sure you 
have the room ahead of the motor. I did not, the motor would hit the front 
cross member.

Some people say, why don't you tilt up the motor to clear it. You must have 
the motor body and transmission parallel with the body of the vehicle and 
the drive line must be set at a offset angle of not less than 3 percent of 
the length of the drive line. For my unit, this makes the transmission yoke 
not less than 2 inches higher than the parallel yoke on the differential 
while the vehicle is on the ground.

That is why I could not push the motor ahead any more and could not raise 
the 11-inch motor another 1/16 of a inch.

Roland






----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Josh Creel" <[email protected]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, March 06, 2008 7:50 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Large Pickup Conversion


> I have also been considering a full size truck conversion. My thoughts 
> were
> that I could use a 1/2 ton chevy pick-up (1988-1999 version). I haven't
> looked it up yet but I don't think it would be alot heavier than the S-10,
> especially after taking out the larger engine, fuel tank, exhaust, etc. I
> really like a full size cab, seat 3 comfortably. I'm still working on my
> S-10, but I was thinking of getting a 1/2 ton to work on next. What do 
> you
> think about using a S-10 transmission in a truck like this with the warp 9
> motor just like i'm installing in the s-10. I think these trucks were
> fairly aerodynamic ( for a truck) and you could even lower it some to 
> help,
> plus they had a good load capacity ( the WT series already had extra leaf
> springs) So what do you think?
>
> Josh and Jen
>
> www.jcsevparts.com
>
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
> 

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Lowering a vehicle does not always help with aerodynamics,

Look at most solar race cars and you will see that the bottom tends to be
8 inches or more off the ground. This is because it's more aerodynamic to
keep the vehicle up out of the ground effect.
They only lower vehicles and add ground effect skirts because the typical
vehicle has such a rough underside.
If you added a smooth belly pan to a truck and kept the high ground
clearance, you'd probably be better off aerodynamically.

> motor just like i'm installing in the s-10. I think these trucks were
> fairly aerodynamic ( for a truck) and you could even lower it some to
> help,
> plus they had a good load capacity ( the WT series already had extra leaf
> springs) So what do you think?
>
> Josh and Jen
>
> www.jcsevparts.com
>
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "John G. Lussmyer" <[email protected]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, March 06, 2008 9:01 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Large Pickup Conver
>
> The above statements seem to contradict each other.
> 68 miles at 60mph may be close, but you can only do 39x2=78 miles at 
> 30mph?

John,

The 39.5 miles is done on grades and stop and go traffic which the motor may 
draw up to 400 amps on acceleration up to 30 mph.

The 68 miles at 60 mph is a calculation done by the EV Calculation which is 
probly done on a level constant drive.

If you read the e-mail, it said's grades, stop and go 22 times at 30 mph.

Roland 

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Have you considered that you could probably convert something like an S-10
using LiIon batteries for about the same cost?

You'd end up with as much or more payload capacity and much lower fuel
(electricity) costs.

> Once again I'm considering converting a large pickup. Something like a
> 95 Ford F-250.
> One of the reasons I'm considering such a vehicle is that I want a
> useable cargo capacity AFTER converting it. This thing has a base
> payload of 4000 lbs, so I can probably end up with a payload of 1000 lbs
> after conversion - without doing anything special to the brakes or
> suspension. (more if I want to beef up the suspension and brakes.)
> Just not sure if I can wedge all those batteries in places OTHER than in
> the bed!
>
> I've been playing with the calculator at
> http://www.geocities.com/hempev/EVCalculator.html
> It has a better selection of components than UVE's EV calculator. Still
> not quite up to date though.
> I'm thinking of using a pair of Impulse 9" motors, and that's not one of
> the motor choices, so I did the calcs with a Kostov.
> I've found (by lots of web searching) that the Coefficient of drag can
> be around .50, and I'm guessing the frontal area at 36 sq ft.
> Haven't found the available gear ratios yet, so left those at the default.
> I also set the Rolling Resistance to .015, as I doubt I'll find LRR
> tires that size!
>
> Seem like using a Z2K and 40 T-145's may give me around a 50 mile range
> at 60mph. (I'm guessing this is to 100% DOD, since the web page doesn't
> say.) So more like a 40 mile useable range.
> Not great, but basically useable. It goes up a LOT at lower speeds,
> which are likely for quite a bit of my driving.
>
> I've had people suggest doing an S10 instead, but as far as I can tell,
> you end up with about 0 payload capacity.
>
> Comments, Suggestions, Emus?
>
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>


_______________________________________________
For subscription options, see
http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Josh Creel wrote:
> > I have also been considering a full size truck conversion. My thoughts were
> > that I could use a 1/2 ton chevy pick-up (1988-1999 version). I haven't
> > looked it up yet but I don't think it would be alot heavier than the S-10,
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

That's a good point... instead of taking a vehicle with 4,000lbs payload,
and using all but 1,000lbs of it up, why not convert something with 1,500lbs
payload (do the quarter ton pickups still have this much?) and use only
500lbs of batteries. I've priced out LiOn batteries for mine at around
500lbs and $20k, which would still leave around 900lbs of payload. I
haven't decided to go that way yet... but it's tempting.

Z



> Peter VanDerWal <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> > Have you considered that you could probably convert something like an S-10
> > using LiIon batteries for about the same cost?
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Plus the fact that many companies already make conversion kits or
components for an S10. 

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On
Behalf Of Peter VanDerWal
Sent: Thursday, March 06, 2008 5:12
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Large Pickup Conversion

Have you considered that you could probably convert something like an
S-10 using LiIon batteries for about the same cost?

You'd end up with as much or more payload capacity and much lower fuel
(electricity) costs.

> Once again I'm considering converting a large pickup. Something like 
> a
> 95 Ford F-250.
> One of the reasons I'm considering such a vehicle is that I want a 
> useable cargo capacity AFTER converting it. This thing has a base 
> payload of 4000 lbs, so I can probably end up with a payload of 1000 
> lbs after conversion - without doing anything special to the brakes or

> suspension. (more if I want to beef up the suspension and brakes.) 
> Just not sure if I can wedge all those batteries in places OTHER than 
> in the bed!
>
> I've been playing with the calculator at 
> http://www.geocities.com/hempev/EVCalculator.html
> It has a better selection of components than UVE's EV calculator. 
> Still not quite up to date though.
> I'm thinking of using a pair of Impulse 9" motors, and that's not one 
> of the motor choices, so I did the calcs with a Kostov.
> I've found (by lots of web searching) that the Coefficient of drag can

> be around .50, and I'm guessing the frontal area at 36 sq ft.
> Haven't found the available gear ratios yet, so left those at the
default.
> I also set the Rolling Resistance to .015, as I doubt I'll find LRR 
> tires that size!
>
> Seem like using a Z2K and 40 T-145's may give me around a 50 mile 
> range at 60mph. (I'm guessing this is to 100% DOD, since the web page

> doesn't
> say.) So more like a 40 mile useable range.
> Not great, but basically useable. It goes up a LOT at lower speeds, 
> which are likely for quite a bit of my driving.
>
> I've had people suggest doing an S10 instead, but as far as I can 
> tell, you end up with about 0 payload capacity.
>
> Comments, Suggestions, Emus?
>
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>


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http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev

_______________________________________________
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----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Peter VanDerWal wrote:
> > Have you considered that you could probably convert something like an S-10
> > using LiIon batteries for about the same cost?
> >
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

True enough..... around $18 to $25k for a LiOn battery pack for a compact
pickup is what I've been seeing from the recent discussions.

Z

On Thu, Mar 6, 2008 at 10:49 AM, John G. Lussmyer <[email protected]>


> wrote:
> 
> > Peter VanDerWal
> 
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Does the S15 have a higher weight rating than the S10, or what the heck is
an S15 pickup? I'm not a chevy guy, so I've never bothered finding out, but
I've seen older chevy mini-pickups running around that say S15 on the side,
that are not a C1500.

Z

On Thu, Mar 6, 2008 at 10:32 AM, Dewey, Jody R ATC COMNAVAIRLANT, N422G5G <


> [email protected]> wrote:
> 
> > Plus the fact that many companies already make conversion kits or
> > components for an S10.
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

S15 is the upgraded version of the S10. Kind of like a GMC versus
Chevy. They usually had all the bells and whistles. 

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On
Behalf Of Zeke Yewdall
Sent: Thursday, March 06, 2008 13:00
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Large Pickup Conversion

Does the S15 have a higher weight rating than the S10, or what the heck
is an S15 pickup? I'm not a chevy guy, so I've never bothered finding
out, but I've seen older chevy mini-pickups running around that say S15
on the side, that are not a C1500.

Z

On Thu, Mar 6, 2008 at 10:32 AM, Dewey, Jody R ATC COMNAVAIRLANT,


> N422G5G < [email protected]> wrote:
> 
> > Plus the fact that many companies already make conversion kits or
> > components for an S10.
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

How about $13,500 for a 144V LiOn pack with charger and BMS included (plus 
freight, of course - unless you are close enough to Salem, OR to pick it up, 
which I believe Zeke you are!) this is for a 100 AHr pack - there are 200 
AHr packs available, but I don't know the prices yet. By the way, guys and 
gals, these have a 1 yr full replacement warranty, 2nd year is pro-rated.

The 100 AHr pack should get a small pickup 60 miles at 55 mph, the 200 AHr 
should do better than 100 miles per charge.

We are trying to get 120V chargers with BMS from the factory, as that will 
be a better fit for most low-power vehicles, and should be less cost than 
the 144V setups.

Joseph H. Strubhar

Web: www.gremcoinc.com

E-mail: [email protected]
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Zeke Yewdall" <[email protected]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, March 06, 2008 10:28 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Large Pickup Conversion


> True enough..... around $18 to $25k for a LiOn battery pack for a compact
> pickup is what I've been seeing from the recent discussions.
>
> Z
>
> On Thu, Mar 6, 2008 at 10:49 AM, John G. Lussmyer <[email protected]>


> > wrote:
> >
> >> Peter VanDerWal wrote:
> >> > Have you considered that you could probably convert something like an
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On
> Behalf Of Zeke Yewdall
> Sent: Thursday, March 06, 2008 1:00 PM
> To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Large Pickup Conversion
> 
> Does the S15 have a higher weight rating than the S10, or what the heck
> is
> an S15 pickup? 

The S15 is the GMC version of the S10. Basically identical.


--
Stay Charged!
Hump
"If you don't "believe" you'll make a difference, than you probably never will!" -- Jim Husted


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

The S-15 I believe Joseph H. Strubhar

Web: www.gremcoinc.com

E-mail: [email protected] a GMC pickup, not Chevy.


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Zeke Yewdall" <[email protected]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, March 06, 2008 10:00 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Large Pickup Conversion


> Does the S15 have a higher weight rating than the S10, or what the heck is
> an S15 pickup? I'm not a chevy guy, so I've never bothered finding out, 
> but
> I've seen older chevy mini-pickups running around that say S15 on the 
> side,
> that are not a C1500.
>
> Z
>
> On Thu, Mar 6, 2008 at 10:32 AM, Dewey, Jody R ATC COMNAVAIRLANT, N422G5G 
> <


> > [email protected]> wrote:
> >
> >> Plus the fact that many companies already make conversion kits or
> >> components for an S10.
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> joe wrote:
> > How about $13,500 for a 144V LiOn pack with charger and BMS included (plus
> > freight, of course - unless you are close enough to Salem, OR to pick it up,
> > which I believe Zeke you are!) this is for a 100 AHr pack - there are 200
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

How much more do you think the V-8 motor and larger transmission weigh as 
far as the 4000lb weight is concerned? Is all that weight in the cab and 
frame?

I have a 2006 4 door 1500 sierra pick up and it weighs less than 5000lbs 
empty. does the extended cab and larger motor only add 1000lbs? Payload on 
it is 1900lbs.

(it gets 21 mpg with a 5.3 v-8)

>>
> Doing some research on Edmunds.com
> All the full-size trucks are running about 4000 lbs curb weight.
> I was looking at mid-90's to find payload capacities.
> 97 C2500 - 2900 lbs
> 97 C/K1500 - 2080 lbs
> 96 S10 - 1600 lbs (S10 curb weight is 2870)
> 95 F250 - 4000 lbs
>
> _______________________________________________
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> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
> 

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Hmmm. That's actually quite attractive. Especially if it includes the
charger and BMS.

What is the C rate and weight of that pack?

Z



> joe <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> > How about $13,500 for a 144V LiOn pack with charger and BMS included (plus
> > freight, of course - unless you are close enough to Salem, OR to pick it
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

http://www.bacomatic.org/~dw/library/txt/engfyi.htm
weights of all kinds of ICE engines.

Z

On Thu, Mar 6, 2008 at 1:22 PM, Josh Creel <[email protected]>


> wrote:
> 
> > How much more do you think the V-8 motor and larger transmission weigh as
> > far as the 4000lb weight is concerned? Is all that weight in the cab and
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Josh Creel wrote:
> > How much more do you think the V-8 motor and larger transmission weigh as
> > far as the 4000lb weight is concerned? Is all that weight in the cab and
> > frame?
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Lion EV is offering a lipo pack for S-10 for $15500.

www.lionev.com

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "John G. Lussmyer" <[email protected]>
To: <[email protected]>; "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" 
<[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, March 06, 2008 12:49 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Large Pickup Conversion




> > Peter VanDerWal wrote:
> >> Have you considered that you could probably convert something like an
> >> S-10
> >> using LiIon batteries for about the same cost?
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

YEAH! I'LL DO THAT!

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Peter VanDerWal" <[email protected]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, March 06, 2008 4:33 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Large Pickup Conversion


> Lowering a vehicle does not always help with aerodynamics,
>
> Look at most solar race cars and you will see that the bottom tends to be
> 8 inches or more off the ground. This is because it's more aerodynamic to
> keep the vehicle up out of the ground effect.
> They only lower vehicles and add ground effect skirts because the typical
> vehicle has such a rough underside.
> If you added a smooth belly pan to a truck and kept the high ground
> clearance, you'd probably be better off aerodynamically.
>
>> motor just like i'm installing in the s-10. I think these trucks were
>> fairly aerodynamic ( for a truck) and you could even lower it some to
>> help,
>> plus they had a good load capacity ( the WT series already had extra leaf
>> springs) So what do you think?
>>
>> Josh and Jen
>>
>> www.jcsevparts.com
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> For subscription options, see
>> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> How about $13,500 for a 144V LiOn pack with charger and BMS included

How powerful is the charger?

Given how cheap Chinese lithium has gotten, even if it included a PFC-30 a
system like this should be under 10k.

Steve West


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

The 5.3/transmission combo's I've pulled from vehicles weighed between 
800 and 850 lbs.

John Thornton





> Josh Creel wrote:
> > How much more do you think the V-8 motor and larger transmission weigh as
> > far as the 4000lb weight is concerned? Is all that weight in the cab and
> > frame?
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Lion EV is offering a lipo pack for S-10 for $15500.
>
> www.lionev.com

I went to http://www.lionev.com/upgrade_to_Lithium.html which lists 
packs for hybrids and EVs. My Ranger has been doing fine with the 
refurb 8v pack from Blue Sky Motors, so I expect a year or more before 
the next replacement, but $14K for an equivalent capacity *and* 2000 
cycles looks good - including labor, my last replacement ran about 
$3.5K, and may get 500 cycles if I'm careful.

But "here's the thing" - lithium taken off of charge doesn't drop the 
way either the OEM lead or NiMH packs do, and the truck won't start if 
the voltage is *too high*! The lead acid 8v gels hit 396V at full 
charge, but since there is no voltmeter, I don't know how low they 
drop - read somewhere >370V causes a fault when the ignition key is 
turned.

So, these packs need their own charger installed, but they would also 
have to be at a nominally lower voltage, since a 312V lead pack (or a 
300V NiMH pack) "resting" at 100% SOC is much lower than a 312V 
lithium pack at the same SOC. I would want to know someone had 
addressed this, especially since Ford has made it nearly impossible 
for anyone to reset these (or most any other) parameters.

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Do you think a S-10 5 speed with a Warp 9 (clutchless) work in a 1/2 ton 
short bed truck?
Keep it light as possible....


Subject: Re: [EVDL] Large Pickup Conversion


> The 5.3/transmission combo's I've pulled from vehicles weighed between
> 800 and 850 lbs.
>
> John Thornton

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

The larger engine and tranny /might/ weigh 300 lbs more, probably less
than that though.

The bigger truck with 40 batteries will need at least twice the weight in
copper, twice the extra weight in battery racks, the extra electric motor
will weigh 150 lbs or so, plus the extra weight of the motor coupler.

Basically the extra motor, adapter/coupler, extra battery cables, and
battery racks will use up all of the weight savings from the removal of
the larger motor/tranny.
Plus if you use the smaller tranny with dual motors and a heavy vehicle,
it might fail (there is a reason they use a larger tranny in larger
trucks)

> How much more do you think the V-8 motor and larger transmission weigh as
> far as the 4000lb weight is concerned? Is all that weight in the cab and
> frame?
>
> I have a 2006 4 door 1500 sierra pick up and it weighs less than 5000lbs
> empty. does the extended cab and larger motor only add 1000lbs? Payload
> on
> it is 1900lbs.
>
> (it gets 21 mpg with a 5.3 v-8)
>
>>>
>> Doing some research on Edmunds.com
>> All the full-size trucks are running about 4000 lbs curb weight.
>> I was looking at mid-90's to find payload capacities.
>> 97 C2500 - 2900 lbs
>> 97 C/K1500 - 2080 lbs
>> 96 S10 - 1600 lbs (S10 curb weight is 2870)
>> 95 F250 - 4000 lbs
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> For subscription options, see
>> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> John G. Lussmyer wrote:
> 
> > I'm hoping for better performance with dual Impulse 9's. I
> > don't want to block traffic when accelerating from a traffic light.
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Has anyone tried using larger batteries like ones that go in floor sweepers 
or tow motors? I've seen some with nearly twice the capacity of GC batts.


> I think your last statement sums the real requirement up: 'maximise the 
> range while keeping cost reasonable'. ;^>
>
> I'm just suggesting that as you shop around for prices you might compare 
> prices on the commodity T105/US2200 model vs the less common T145/US145. 
> 44 US2200s (264V) weigh the same as 40 US145s, and the increase in voltage 
> helps to offset the lower capacity/lb of the US2200. US Battery states 
> that there are 48 of either per pallet, and you might find that a pallet 
> of US2200s is enough cheaper that the $/mi range works out better than 
> going with the US145/T145.
>
> I notice that the '95 F250 with a 4.6/4.9L engine is claimed to deliver 
> 18mpg hwy/14mpg city vs 19mpg hwy/16mpg city for a 2005 Ranger (didn't 
> turn up the '95 specs for it), also with a 4.something engine. This seems 
> to suggest that the F250's CdA isn't so dramatically different (worse), so 
> you might not need quite as much capacity onboard to get your range as it 
> first appeared.
>
> Anyway, alternatives to ponder perhaps...
>
> Cheers,
>
> Roger.
>
> _______________________________________________
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> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev 

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Don't forget gasoline is about 6lbs/gal so a 20 gal tank is another 100+
lbs.

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

I am basing the range numbers on essentially double the range of lead acid 
100 AHr pack at the same voltage, which is more conservative than the 
distributor claims.
And yes, there are some who have done it - Larry has testimonials on file, 
one from a man in Canada (Toronto, I believe) that gets about 4 times the 
range with these LiOns than he got with lead acids.

I'd have to check with Larry on max current discharge.

Joseph H. Strubhar

Web: www.gremcoinc.com

E-mail: [email protected]
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "John G. Lussmyer" <[email protected]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, March 06, 2008 11:34 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Large Pickup Conversion




> > joe wrote:
> >> How about $13,500 for a 144V LiOn pack with charger and BMS included
> >> (plus
> >> freight, of course - unless you are close enough to Salem, OR to pick it
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> joe wrote:
> > I am basing the range numbers on essentially double the range of lead acid
> > 100 AHr pack at the same voltage, which is more conservative than the
> > distributor claims.
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

with the info I've gotton off the list so far, take say a 1996 chevy WT 1/2 
ton short wheel base truck, engine 425lbs, tranny 125lbs, fuel tank 26gal 
150+ lbs minus curb weight 3900 lbs = 3200 lbs

1996 chevy S-10 engine 250lbs, tranny 80lbs, fuel tank 13 gal. 75+ lbs 
minus curb weight of 3100 lbs = 2695lbs

So there is a 505lb difference between these 2 trucks (not counting the 
difference in the radiator sizes/weights) but 3 can sit comfortably in the 
seat of the larger truck. Put a warp 9 in either truck using the lighter 
tranny will only be about 200lbs. (I'm gonna have to try it for my next 
project, I'm a full sized boy { 6' 2" 270lbs} I like a full sized truck! 
lol)
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Jeff Shanab" <[email protected]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, March 06, 2008 10:53 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Large Pickup Conversion


> Don't forget gasoline is about 6lbs/gal so a 20 gal tank is another 100+
> lbs.

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Don't forget that lead tends to give you much less than the rated C/20
Ah on the sticker when you drain them at 1C (or there abouts)

The newer chemistries (Nickel and Lithium) give much closer to their
rated Ah at high draws.

(Of course, this is all very variable from mfr to mfr.)



> John G. Lussmyer <[email protected]> wrote:
> > joe wrote:
> > > I am basing the range numbers on essentially double the range of lead acid
> > > 100 AHr pack at the same voltage, which is more conservative than the
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

There must be an example somewhere of a large truck EV. Surely this
isn't a new idea that nobody has ever tried.

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

On Thu, Mar 6, 2008 at 10:32 PM, John G. Lussmyer


> <[email protected]> wrote:
> > Umm, same amount of power, just less weight doubles the range? That
> > doesn't sound quite right.
> 
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Good points, and the solar cars are very aerodynamic. Just a couple of counterpoints: Just yesterday I saw a publication talking about electrathon. For the top 10 fastest electrathon cars, about half were high and half were close to the ground. Also, land speed streamliners have smooth undersides, but are also very close to the ground.

----- Original Message ----
From: Peter VanDerWal <[email protected]>
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, March 6, 2008 2:33:40 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Large Pickup Conversion

Lowering a vehicle does not always help with aerodynamics,

Look at most solar race cars and you will see that the bottom tends to be
8 inches or more off the ground. This is because it's more aerodynamic to
keep the vehicle up out of the ground effect.
They only lower vehicles and add ground effect skirts because the typical
vehicle has such a rough underside.
If you added a smooth belly pan to a truck and kept the high ground
clearance, you'd probably be better off aerodynamically.






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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

I would really shy away from going clutchless. You will not like the
increased effort required to shift. Plus with that much weight you are
going to have a hard time getting the speed matched to shift. All the
adapters I have seen work with the clutch. 

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On
Behalf Of Josh Creel
Sent: Thursday, March 06, 2008 18:36
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Large Pickup Conversion

Do you think a S-10 5 speed with a Warp 9 (clutchless) work in a 1/2 ton
short bed truck?
Keep it light as possible....


Subject: Re: [EVDL] Large Pickup Conversion


> The 5.3/transmission combo's I've pulled from vehicles weighed between
> 800 and 850 lbs.
>
> John Thornton

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

It is my understanding that the Borg Warner 5 speed used in the S-10 will 
handle a lot more horsepower than was ever put under the hood of an S-10. 
>From what I've read, the transmision is used in drag racers as well.

I would not use twice as many batteries either. probably go with the 
standard 24 batts. used in s-10's and see what happens.





> The larger engine and tranny /might/ weigh 300 lbs more, probably less
> than that though.
>
> The bigger truck with 40 batteries will need at least twice the weight in
> copper, twice the extra weight in battery racks, the extra electric motor
> will weigh 150 lbs or so, plus the extra weight of the motor coupler.
>
> Basically the extra motor, adapter/coupler, extra battery cables, and
> battery racks will use up all of the weight savings from the removal of
> the larger motor/tranny.
> Plus if you use the smaller tranny with dual motors and a heavy vehicle,
> it might fail (there is a reason they use a larger tranny in larger
> trucks)
>
>> How much more do you think the V-8 motor and larger transmission weigh as
>> far as the 4000lb weight is concerned? Is all that weight in the cab and
>> frame?
>>
>> I have a 2006 4 door 1500 sierra pick up and it weighs less than 5000lbs
>> empty. does the extended cab and larger motor only add 1000lbs? Payload
>> on
>> it is 1900lbs.
>>
>> (it gets 21 mpg with a 5.3 v-8)
>>
>>>>
>>> Doing some research on Edmunds.com
>>> All the full-size trucks are running about 4000 lbs curb weight.
>>> I was looking at mid-90's to find payload capacities.
>>> 97 C2500 - 2900 lbs
>>> 97 C/K1500 - 2080 lbs
>>> 96 S10 - 1600 lbs (S10 curb weight is 2870)
>>> 95 F250 - 4000 lbs
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> For subscription options, see
>>> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> For subscription options, see
>> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev 

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

The 5 speed trans in the S10 comes in two varieties:

NV1500 - this transmission bolts to 4 cylinder 2.4L and 6 cylinder
2.8L. They are rated for about 200-250 lb/ft of torque.

NV3500 - this transmission bolted to the back of 4.3L V6 and is also
used in the C1500 1/2 ton Chevy and GMC pickups with 4.3L V6 and 5.0L
and 5.7L V8 engines. It will take about 250-300 lb/ft of torque.

There is also another transmission, the NV4500 which came in diesel 3/4
ton trucks and big block trucks. It can handle 350-400 lb/ft of torque.

The NV1500 easily can handle what you want. The NV3500 are harder to
find and NV4500 are even harder still. If you pick the NV1500 there are
several EV adapters already made and available in the market. 

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On
Behalf Of Josh Creel
Sent: Friday, March 07, 2008 9:05
To: [email protected]; Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Large Pickup Conversion

It is my understanding that the Borg Warner 5 speed used in the S-10
will handle a lot more horsepower than was ever put under the hood of an
S-10. 
>From what I've read, the transmision is used in drag racers as well.

I would not use twice as many batteries either. probably go with the 
standard 24 batts. used in s-10's and see what happens.





> The larger engine and tranny /might/ weigh 300 lbs more, probably less
> than that though.
>
> The bigger truck with 40 batteries will need at least twice the weight
in
> copper, twice the extra weight in battery racks, the extra electric
motor
> will weigh 150 lbs or so, plus the extra weight of the motor coupler.
>
> Basically the extra motor, adapter/coupler, extra battery cables, and
> battery racks will use up all of the weight savings from the removal
of
> the larger motor/tranny.
> Plus if you use the smaller tranny with dual motors and a heavy
vehicle,
> it might fail (there is a reason they use a larger tranny in larger
> trucks)
>
>> How much more do you think the V-8 motor and larger transmission
weigh as
>> far as the 4000lb weight is concerned? Is all that weight in the cab
and
>> frame?
>>
>> I have a 2006 4 door 1500 sierra pick up and it weighs less than
5000lbs
>> empty. does the extended cab and larger motor only add 1000lbs?
Payload
>> on
>> it is 1900lbs.
>>
>> (it gets 21 mpg with a 5.3 v-8)
>>
>>>>
>>> Doing some research on Edmunds.com
>>> All the full-size trucks are running about 4000 lbs curb weight.
>>> I was looking at mid-90's to find payload capacities.
>>> 97 C2500 - 2900 lbs
>>> 97 C/K1500 - 2080 lbs
>>> 96 S10 - 1600 lbs (S10 curb weight is 2870)
>>> 95 F250 - 4000 lbs
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> For subscription options, see
>>> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> For subscription options, see
>> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev 

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

I used to have a converted '92 S-10, with which I did a fair bit of 
hauling. It had 16 batteries *under* the bed, plus 6 up front (22 total) 
with an ADC9" motor. It had an extra leaf in the springs on each side. 
And aluminum ladder racks on top. Different cargoes including multiple 
bed fulls of mulch/compost, 1/2 ton of gravel, an Elec-Trak garden 
tractor (minus its batteries), a bunch of pipe staging, lumber, etc. 
were carried at various times. Having the big DCP controller was a good 
thing with the high starting torque. I'd take it easy when carrying this 
much, but it worked like a charm (except the gravel turned out to be a 
dumb move in that although the bed had spray-on liner to protect it, a 
lot of gravel bits bounced off the outside of the tailgate during 
loading and chipped the paint up). Possibly hard on the batteries, but 
plenty of power to move these loads the needed 5 - 15 miles, and the 
suspension did fine. The added leaves were complete leaves, that require 
taking the rear end apart and rebuilding. I've seen some conversions 
using half-leaves (?) that bolt on much easier, but don't do as well. 
Whether or not I exceeded legal weight limits I don't know, but as a 
pratical matter, it worked fine for occasional hauling.

What does Steve Clunn use? I'm pretty sure he drives an electric pick-up 
carrying his electric mower for his landscape jobs.

PS keep the clutch!




> John G. Lussmyer wrote:
> > Once again I'm considering converting a large pickup. Something like a
> > 95 Ford F-250.
> > One of the reasons I'm considering such a vehicle is that I want a
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Large Pickup Conversion
> 
> There must be an example somewhere of a large truck EV. Surely this
> isn't a new idea that nobody has ever tried.
> 
> _______________________________________________


I don't know of any large pick-ups, but there are some Dodge Dakota's (mid-size p/u) and a few full size Chevy/GMC vans.

For example, David Chapmans 1 ton Chevy Cargo van

http://www.evalbum.com/355

essentially, there's not much difference (drive-train and suspension) between a 1 ton van and a 1 ton pick-up.


--
Stay Charged!
Hump
"If you don't "believe" you'll make a difference, than you probably never will!" -- Jim Husted


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

In a message dated 3/7/2008 8:25:36 AM US Mountain Standard Time, 
[email protected] writes: 
> 
> Date:3/7/2008 8:25:36 AM US Mountain Standard Time
> From:[email protected]
> Reply-to:[email protected]
> To:[email protected]
> Received from Internet: 
> 
> 
> 
> I have a 14 inch GE motor for such a large pu.Contact me off list if 
> intrested. Dennis Berube
> 
> 
> >Subject: Re: [EVDL] Large Pickup Conversion
> >
> >There must be an example somewhere of a large truck EV. Surely this
> >isn't a new idea that nobody has ever tried.
> >
> >_______________________________________________
> 
> 
> I don't know of any large pick-ups, but there are some Dodge Dakota's 
> (mid-size p/u) and a few full size Chevy/GMC vans.
> 
> For example, David Chapmans 1 ton Chevy Cargo van
> 
> http://www.evalbum.com/355
> 
> essentially, there's not much difference (drive-train and suspension) 
> between a 1 ton van and a 1 ton pick-up.
> 
> 
> --
> Stay Charged!
> Hump
> "If you don't "believe" you'll make a difference, than you probably never 
> will!" -- Jim Husted
> 


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Roger Stockton wrote:
> > Likewise regarding the T145s; the T125s are generally considered the sweet spot of the flooded golf cart batteries, but I suppose you are looking for the greatest capacity?
> >
> > The economics of the more common T105 might work out such that you could actually get the same or greater usable capacity for similar weight by going with a slightly higher voltage string (50 modules for 300V?), thereby being able to max out a Z2K-HV and perhaps get a bit better price by buying a full pallet of batteries.
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> John G. Lussmyer wrote:
> 
> > Of course, I'm still not sure just where I can put 40 (or
> > 50!) batteries. I'd rather not use much of the bed area, as
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

On Fri, 2008-03-07 at 12:03 +1300, Stephen West wrote:
> > How about $13,500 for a 144V LiOn pack with charger and BMS included
> 
> How powerful is the charger?
> 
> Given how cheap Chinese lithium has gotten, even if it included a PFC-30 a
> system like this should be under 10k.

1 Year replacement, 2 year pro-rate warranty from an American company
may have something to do with the premium over the cheaper Chinese cell
prices.

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Roger Stockton wrote:
> > Presuming the Supercab results in longer frame rails to still allow a full 8ft box behind the cab, this could work to your advantage. It must surely allow an additional 18" or so of length between the end of the tranny and the rear shocks for you to fit in battery boxes. 10 GC batteries oriented sideways would require a box almost exactly 6' long by just over 10" wide. The batteries are 10.25"L, and will swell a bit in this dimension, so probably figure on nearer 11" inside width for the boxes, and a bit wider still if you want to allow for a bit of insulation. 4 such boxes, one hanging off of each side of each frame rail would get your 40 batteries under the bed.
> 
> Okay, I pulled my 95 F250 4x4 Supercab Longbed into the shop and measured.
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> John G. Lussmyer wrote:
> 
> > Under the bed: (29" clearance off ground)
> > Each side, outside the frame: 28"x14"
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

While everybody is measuring there rig to see how many batteries you can get 
into what area, I went and measure my rig to see why that I could get over 
40 batteries in the box. Maybe the 1977 El Camino has a larger box area for 
some reason.

The total bed length is 72 inches long and the area between the wheel wells 
is 44 inches wide by 57 inches long where 30 GC batteries are and the area 
behind the wheel wells is 60 inches by 15 inches, I could get 10 more 
batteries in.

The battery box is 12 inches high and made out of 1/4 thick fiberglass with 
two divider compartments with 2 inch flanges on top for the 1/4 inch thick 
fiberglass covers to set on.

The hatch cover lifts up exposing a 18 inch space above the battery box 
covers at the cab and a 36 inch space at the rear. I was able to carry 
about 30 sheets of 1/2 inch plywood and two layers of 1.5 inch dimensional 
lumber on top of the battery covers.

At one time I carry 40 boxes of glaze floor tile that weigh about 50 lbs per 
box.

Even if I had a rig, that the bed could tilt up. I would have to put in a 
vehicle lift kit, to jack the vehicle up another foot, so I can go through a 
foot or more of snow, throw the creeks and high center ridge dirt roads to 
get enough clearance for at least of 4 inches of foam insulated boxes at -30 
below temperatures.

Roland




----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Jeff Shanab" <[email protected]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Saturday, March 08, 2008 7:35 AM
Subject: [EVDL] Large Pickup Conversion


> > You really can't use *any* of the bed, otherwise you cannot tilt the box 
> > to access the batteries underneath without first disconnecting and 
> > removing all floodies from it.
> But I think I saw a pickup with a box mounted on top of the frame and a 
> hole in the bed floor that allowed them to still tilt the bed to get to 
> the other batteries
>
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
> 

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Jeff Shanab wrote:
> 
> > > You really can't use *any* of the bed, otherwise you cannot
> > > tilt the box to access the batteries underneath without first
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

John and All,
I know we talked about this last time you mentioned a truck conversion, but I would still suggest a light-duty pickup, such as the S10. Although, as Bill Dube's words ring in my ears, "if you start out with a gas piece of ..., you end up with an electric piece of ..."! Anyway, my S10 with 24 T-145's would do 60 miles maximum, and for those occasion trips to the lumber yard/dump, etc., I would still suggest pulling a trailer. Although I remember you saying that a trailer would be problem on the ferry, so yes, you wouldn't have much payload available for carrying stuff in the bed. Instead of an extended cab like mine, you might consider a standard-cab long-bed for a couple more floodies under the bed to make a 156 volts of them, 9 incher, Z1K...
Suck Amps,
BB

>Date: Wed, 05 Mar 2008 20:09:34 -0800
>From: "John G. Lussmyer" 
>
>Once again I'm considering converting a large pickup. Something like a 
>95 Ford F-250.
>One of the reasons I'm considering such a vehicle is that I want a 
>useable cargo capacity AFTER converting it. This thing has a base 
>payload of 4000 lbs, so I can probably end up with a payload of 1000 lbs 
>after conversion - without doing anything special to the brakes or 
>suspension. (more if I want to beef up the suspension and brakes.) 
>Just not sure if I can wedge all those batteries in places OTHER than in 
>the bed!
>
>I've been playing with the calculator at 
>http://www.geocities.com/hempev/EVCalculator.html
>It has a better selection of components than UVE's EV calculator. Still 
>not quite up to date though.
>I'm thinking of using a pair of Impulse 9" motors, and that's not one of 
>the motor choices, so I did the calcs with a Kostov.
>I've found (by lots of web searching) that the Coefficient of drag can 
>be around .50, and I'm guessing the frontal area at 36 sq ft.
>Haven't found the available gear ratios yet, so left those at the default. 
>I also set the Rolling Resistance to .015, as I doubt I'll find LRR 
>tires that size!
>
>Seem like using a Z2K and 40 T-145's may give me around a 50 mile range 
>at 60mph. (I'm guessing this is to 100% DOD, since the web page doesn't 
>say.) So more like a 40 mile useable range.
>Not great, but basically useable. It goes up a LOT at lower speeds, 
>which are likely for quite a bit of my driving.
>
>I've had people suggest doing an S10 instead, but as far as I can tell, 
>you end up with about 0 payload capacity.
>
>Comments, Suggestions, Emus?

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Technicalities aside, bear in mind that the box holding the batteries will
> be at least 12" tall, and so the box could not sit tight against the front
> of the pickup bed as the bed would then not be able to tilt up.

Unless one was to cut out the bottom of the bed AND the front of it where
the box is. Leave the front of the bed that is above the box intact.

It might weaken the bed a bit (you can fix that) and it will be in the way
of anything below the box, but if you have no other place to put the
batteries and really want a tilt bed, it would work.



> frame-mounted box would have to take up even more of the available space
> in the pickup bed than it first seems, and the hole in the floor of the
> bed will need to be enough longer than the battery box to clear its height
> as the bed tilts to access the batteries under it.
>
> It seems that it would be difficult to come up with a frame-mounted
> battery box like this that doesn't significantly reduct the number of
> batteries that can be stowed beneath the bed. This upper battery box
> cannot cover any of the batteries/boxed beneath the bed, so it would
> prevent use of the space beneath the bed between the frame rails on either
> side of the driveshaft. About the only way this sort of above the frame
> box could increase the number of batteries carried would be if it were a
> long narrow box down the middle of the bed (allowing batteries to be
> placed above the space reserved for the driveshaft), or a wide, short box
> directly above the rear axle, either of which would render the bed so
> nearly useless for hauling that it would make more sense to just mount all
> the batteries in the bed and do away with the complication of cutting
> holes in the bed floor and tilting it, etc.
>
> We know from Red Beastie's example that 40 flooded GC batteries fit neatly
> into a fullsize pickup bed, and as memory serves me, there was still
> enough room left by the tailgate in Red Beastie for another row of
> floodies or several bags of groceries.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Roger.
>
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

<snip>




> Roger Stockton <[email protected]> wrote:
> > John G. Lussmyer wrote:
> >
> 
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

[No message]


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> John G. Lussmyer wrote:
> > joe wrote:
> > > I am basing the range numbers on essentially double the range of lead acid
> > > 100 AHr pack at the same voltage, which is more conservative than the
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Just a thought but if you wanted the bed to hold stuff and said stuff 
might be in the bed when you want to check the batteries why can't you 
mount the bed on a hydraulic scissor jack arangement and lift the bed 
straight up about 30 inches or so. This would allow you to inspect the 
batteries and hopefully remove them if necessary for replacement. Maybe 
you would want it to be more like 40 inches or so. Anyway this may be 
just a wild and stupid idea as I have no clue as to the cost or real 
complexity of something like this but I does get around the problem of 
having something in the bed when you tilt it. I think I saw a 
hydraulic scissor jack at Harbor Frieght a few weeks ago that got me 
thinking about this. Granted you would have to have some serious 
lifting power if you wanted say several pieces of sheet rock or such in 
the bed of your truck but if it can be done for a small price it might 
be the way to go.
Just grist for the mill
Lloyd Wayne Reece
1981 Lectra Centauri

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Just a thought but if you wanted the bed to hold stuff and said stuff 
might be in the bed when you want to check the batteries why can't you 
mount the bed on a hydraulic scissor jack arangement and lift the bed 
straight up about 30 inches or so. This would allow you to inspect the 
batteries and hopefully remove them if necessary for replacement. Maybe 
you would want it to be more like 40 inches or so. Anyway this may be 
just a wild and stupid idea as I have no clue as to the cost or real 
complexity of something like this but I does get around the problem of 
having something in the bed when you tilt it. I think I saw a 
hydraulic scissor jack at Harbor Frieght a few weeks ago that got me 
thinking about this. Granted you would have to have some serious 
lifting power if you wanted say several pieces of sheet rock or such in 
the bed of your truck but if it can be done for a small price it might 
be the way to go.
Just grist for the mill
Lloyd Wayne Reece
1981 Lectra Centauri

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

trucks that deliver roofing products have this type of
lift and the lift 1000"s of lbs 6' or more.



> --- Lloyd Wayne Reece <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> > Just a thought but if you wanted the bed to hold
> > stuff and said stuff
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Roy LeMeur wrote:
> > Folks seem to forget that there is little or no Peukert effect with
> > Lithium.
> 
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Lloyd Wayne Reece wrote:
> > Just a thought but if you wanted the bed to hold stuff and said stuff
> > might be in the bed when you want to check the batteries why can't you
> > mount the bed on a hydraulic scissor jack arangement and lift the bed
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

All,
Since I was planning to pull big trailers, I went to the local bone-yard and traded the 700R4 automatic transmission that came in the '89 S10 for a four-speed manual transmission from a 1982 one-half ton pickup. This tranny was behind a monster GM 6.2 L diesel, and weighs in at 100 pounds, but I haven't broken it yet! The beauty thing about GM vehicles, is the interchangeability of the 350 style engines, transmissions, bell housings, flywheels, etc., which another poster has mentioned in the past. As a recovering gear head, I've seen changes in Ford and Dodge vehicles within a couple of years, but GM, ...
Suck Amps,
BB

>Date: Fri, 7 Mar 2008 09:15:02 -0500
>From: "Dewey, Jody R ATC COMNAVAIRLANT, N422G5G" >
>
>The 5 speed trans in the S10 comes in two varieties:
>
>NV1500 - this transmission bolts to 4 cylinder 2.4L and 6 cylinder
>2.8L. They are rated for about 200-250 lb/ft of torque.
>
>NV3500 - this transmission bolted to the back of 4.3L V6 and is also
>used in the C1500 1/2 ton Chevy and GMC pickups with 4.3L V6 and 5.0L
>and 5.7L V8 engines. It will take about 250-300 lb/ft of torque.
>
>There is also another transmission, the NV4500 which came in diesel 3/4
>ton trucks and big block trucks. It can handle 350-400 lb/ft of torque.
>
>The NV1500 easily can handle what you want. The NV3500 are harder to
>find and NV4500 are even harder still. If you pick the NV1500 there are
>several EV adapters already made and available in the market.
<snippage>

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

All,
One of the reasons I did not convert a Ranger, was the narrow frame rails, not to mention the offset drive-line and opposing shocks, but I need to ask Rodger, why you would not want to put traction batteries under the hood? You are removing at least 400 pounds of infernal combustion, and even if you were to put TWO nine inchers back in, you could add battery weight to replace the loss, and help with braking. Also, if you are going to put 40 batteries in this beast (unlike the 24-26 T-145's I suggested in an S10!), you could go with the more affordable T-125's if you have two parallel packs, or one long string, to lower the current.
Suck Amps,
BB

>Date: Fri, 7 Mar 2008 17:46:26 -0800
>From: Roger Stockton 
>


> >John G. Lussmyer wrote:
> >
> >> Under the bed: (29" clearance off ground)
> >> Each side, outside the frame: 28"x14"
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Dave (Battery Boy) Hawkins wrote:

> One of the reasons I did not convert a Ranger, was the narrow
> frame rails, not to mention the offset drive-line and
> opposing shocks, but I need to ask Rodger, why you would not
> want to put traction batteries under the hood?

Presentability. It can be rather difficult to convince Joe SixPack just how simple and practical EVs are if when you pop the hood it is just at packed with "stuff" as any modern ICE, and worse yet, it is that scary electrical stuff that even seasoned mechanics shudder over ;^>

This may not be important to everyone, and I agree that in this case it may be very useful to get that extra weight up front instead.

> Also, if you are going to put 40 batteries in this beast
> (unlike the 24-26 T-145's I suggested in an S10!), you could
> go with the more affordable T-125's if you have two parallel
> packs, or one long string, to lower the current.

I definitely suggest one long string rather than parallel strings. Makes no difference to the battery current, but the higher pack voltage will give a wider power band (constant torque region).

Cheers,

Roger.

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Just bought a 93 Toyota and I like the idea of doing a pickup conversion like
what BB outlined below. 

How about a few more volts and little more torque as in 
180 Volts
11 inch Netgain
Zilla 2K

Using 30 of the T-125's, the pack weight would be 1980 pounds. It would be
heavy, but like Battery Boy said you could hook on a trailer to haul stuff.
The Red Beastie had 40 batteries, so it seems like 30 be do able. Seems like
the range would be darn good with that much lead.

Kyle 


John and All,
I know we talked about this last time you mentioned a truck conversion, but
I would still suggest a light-duty pickup, such as the S10. Although, as
Bill Dube's words ring in my ears, "if you start out with a gas piece of
..., you end up with an electric piece of ..."! Anyway, my S10 with 24
T-145's would do 60 miles maximum, and for those occasion trips to the
lumber yard/dump, etc., I would still suggest pulling a trailer. Although I
remember you saying that a trailer would be problem on the ferry, so yes,
you wouldn't have much payload available for carrying stuff in the bed.
Instead of an extended cab like mine, you might consider a standard-cab
long-bed for a couple more floodies under the bed to make a 156 volts of
them, 9 incher, Z1K...
Suck Amps,
BB



-----
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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Just bought a 93 Toyota and I like the idea of doing a pickup conversion like
what BB outlined below. 

How about a few more volts and little more torque as in 
180 Volts
11 inch Netgain
Zilla 2K

Using 30 of the T-125's, the pack weight would be 1980 pounds. It would be
heavy, but like Battery Boy said you could hook on a trailer to haul stuff.
The Red Beastie had 40 batteries, so it seems like 30 would be do able. The
range would be darn good with that much lead right?

Kyle 


John and All,
I know we talked about this last time you mentioned a truck conversion, but
I would still suggest a light-duty pickup, such as the S10. Although, as
Bill Dube's words ring in my ears, "if you start out with a gas piece of
..., you end up with an electric piece of ..."! Anyway, my S10 with 24
T-145's would do 60 miles maximum, and for those occasion trips to the
lumber yard/dump, etc., I would still suggest pulling a trailer. Although I
remember you saying that a trailer would be problem on the ferry, so yes,
you wouldn't have much payload available for carrying stuff in the bed.
Instead of an extended cab like mine, you might consider a standard-cab
long-bed for a couple more floodies under the bed to make a 156 volts of
them, 9 incher, Z1K...
Suck Amps,
BB



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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Just bought a 93 Toyota and I like the idea of doing a pickup conversion like
what BB outlined below. 

How about a few more volts and little more torque as in 
180 Volts
11 inch Netgain
Zilla 2K

Using 30 of the T-125's, the pack weight would be 1980 pounds. It would be
heavy, but like Battery Boy said you could hook on a trailer to haul stuff.
The Red Beastie had 40 batteries, so it seems like 30 would be do able. The
range would be darn good with that much lead right?

Kyle 


John and All,
I know we talked about this last time you mentioned a truck conversion, but
I would still suggest a light-duty pickup, such as the S10. Although, as
Bill Dube's words ring in my ears, "if you start out with a gas piece of
..., you end up with an electric piece of ..."! Anyway, my S10 with 24
T-145's would do 60 miles maximum, and for those occasion trips to the
lumber yard/dump, etc., I would still suggest pulling a trailer. Although I
remember you saying that a trailer would be problem on the ferry, so yes,
you wouldn't have much payload available for carrying stuff in the bed.
Instead of an extended cab like mine, you might consider a standard-cab
long-bed for a couple more floodies under the bed to make a 156 volts of
them, 9 incher, Z1K...
Suck Amps,
BB



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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Did everyone get three copies of Kyle's message below? I did.

Z



> zevutah <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> >
> > Just bought a 93 Toyota and I like the idea of doing a pickup conversion
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

I did too.



> Zeke Yewdall <[email protected]> wrote:
> > Did everyone get three copies of Kyle's message below? I did.
> >
> > Z
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Roger Stockton wrote:
> > The numbers suggest to me that the single Warp11 is likely to outperform the pair of Impulse9's, and at a lower cost (not just is the single motor cheaper than a pair of Impulse9's, but you save on the coupler between them, the series-parallel option on the Zilla, and the additional series-parallel contactors).
> >
> 
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> John G. Lussmyer wrote:
> >
> > I called NetGain today and discussed things with him.
> > He recommends 2 9" motors due to the current requirements. He
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Alternative Energy Guy wrote:
>


> John G. Lussmyer wrote:
> >
> >> I called NetGain today and discussed things with him.
> >> He recommends 2 9" motors due to the current requirements. He
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> John G. Lussmyer wrote:
> 
> > I called NetGain today and discussed things with him.
> > He recommends 2 9" motors due to the current requirements.
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

I wonder how the 328 amp figure was arrived at? Did he consider all
the parameters of your truck, your terrain and your driving plans?
Where you live you will do little cruising at 60 mph. The terrain has
few level stretches. A single 9-inch motor with a clutch and transmission
could serve your purpose
if you were willing to downshift gears as necessary to keep the motor
current and battery current within acceptable limits. You would spend a
lot of time crawling up hills at 20 to 40 mph in 2nd and 3rd gear.

Of course, two 9-inch motors or a single 11-inch would be better if
you have a battery pack that can deliver enough current.

I'll venture a guess that you are considering series-parallel motor
switching with no clutch or transmission. DON'T!! Series-parallel
switching with no clutch or transmission is a good tactic in a light
weight racer but not in a heavy truck.

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "John G. Lussmyer" <[email protected]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, April 18, 2008 7:54 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Large Pickup Conversion


> Alternative Energy Guy wrote:
>>


> John G. Lussmyer wrote:
> >>
> >>> I called NetGain today and discussed things with him.
> >>> He recommends 2 9" motors due to the current requirements. He
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Tom Shay wrote:
> > I wonder how the 328 amp figure was arrived at? Did he consider all
> > the parameters of your truck, your terrain and your driving plans?
> > Where you live you will do little cruising at 60 mph. The terrain has
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Tom Shay wrote:
> >
> > I'll venture a guess that you are considering series-parallel motor
> > switching with no clutch or transmission. DON'T!! Series-parallel
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

The Zilla already turns off the output while switching.

I think that the main downside is motor current. In series, each motor
sees the full controller current.

This may or may not be a problem. If the vehicle is light enough that
it accelerates to speed quickly, then you're good. If it takes too
long to accelerate, the motors could overheat.

The difference between the gears of a transmission is usually more
than 2:1, so two motors with series-parallel but at a fixed gear ratio
chosen for high speed will put more stress on each motor than a single
motor with a transmission in low.

That said, if your motors are beefy enough, it shouldn't be a problem.
I don't know where the division is, though.

-Morgan LaMoore



> Matt C <[email protected]> wrote:
> > Tom Shay wrote:
> > >
> > > I'll venture a guess that you are considering series-parallel motor
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

The issue isn't series/parallel, the issue is not using a transmission.

Without a multispeed transmission the motor has to be geared high enough
for highway speed (i.e. 4th gear) AND still produce enough torque to equal
the transmission's output in 1st gear.

A lightweight vehicle doesn't need much torque (relatively speaking) so
you can get away with a large motor and a high amp controller.
A heavy truck without a transmission will need a HUGE controller and very
large motors. Much more powerful than a 'zilla and a couple 9" motors.



> > Tom Shay wrote:
> >>
> >> I'll venture a guess that you are considering series-parallel motor
> >> switching with no clutch or transmission. DON'T!! Series-parallel
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Tom Shay wrote:
> >> I'll venture a guess that you are considering series-parallel motor
> >> switching with no clutch or transmission. DON'T!! Series-parallel
> >> switching with no clutch or transmission is a good tactic in a light
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

The main problem of a direct drive setup is the lack of gear reduction
that a transmission can provide. Gear reduction is necessary to provide
torque for acceleration and hill climbing without drawing obscene
amounts of motor current. Gear reduction also allow the motor(s) to run
faster at low vehicle speeds to develop more horsepower and run cooler.

Multiple motors and a 2000-amp controller would be a poor substitute
for a transmission in your Buick.
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Matt C" <[email protected]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Saturday, April 19, 2008 10:07 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Large Pickup Conversion




> > Tom Shay wrote:
> >>
> >> I'll venture a guess that you are considering series-parallel motor
> >> switching with no clutch or transmission. DON'T!! Series-parallel
> ...


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