# [EVDL] I LOVE My Car lets Convert it to Electric



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

I LOVE my car; I=92ve been driving it almost 10 years. It has been reliable,
and I am familiar with it. I know where all the light bulbs hide their
access, how to use the interior controls without reading the labels. I know
what size tires I bought for it and when. Windows and paint and interior
are in good condition. But, it=92s motor is running rough and the
transmission is slipping too. I=92m thinking about getting a =93Crate=94 e=
ngine
and a rebuilt transmission, but those two items installed will cost almost
$9,000. My friend says for less than that much you can get an Electric
Motor kit. Consider, I drive 40 miles daily, that is three gallons of gas,
or $9 daily, $45 weekly, $2,340 yearly just for gas. We can forget oil
changes and tune-ups too. An electric pays $4,000 for batteries but they
last up to four years, so $1,000 per year. Add $20 per month to recharge
the batteries, and that is $240 plus the $1,000 is $1,240, per year for fuel
equivalent electricity. That is about half what I paid just for gas. So,
I=92ll replace the engine with an Electric Motor, Replace the automatic wit=
h a
4 or 5 speed manual, (Clutch optional.) Put two dozen Golf Cart batteries,
some in the trunk and, some under the hood, install the motor controller,
and do the detail bits and pieces. Sell my old engine and automatic for
scrap or better. And now I have a drive train to run a million miles!
Fantastic! Perhaps next year I=92ll get the interior reupholstered, and the
outside repainted. =93I LOVE My Car!=94 Next, my wife says I need a Psychia=
trist
for my attitude! LOL-))


-- =

Dennis Miles <Director>
Electric Vehicle Training Institute Inc.
In Lakeland, Florida Call [863] 289 - 0690
Training Electric Mechanics for Tomorrow's Cars.
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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

I'd never want to discourage anyone from converting, but what you're 
expressing is, IMO, the wrong reason for doing it.

If you want a sweetly quiet, smooth car, one which doesn't pollute with its 
exhaust, then convert. If you like the idea of never having to change oil 
again (or at least not engine oil), then convert. If you want a car that 
you know inside and out and can (and will) work on yourself, then convert. 
If you prefer plugging in a cord to going to the filling station, then 
convert. If you want to never worry again about skyrocketing gas prices or 
shortages, then convert. If you'd rather see your fuel dollars go to the 
regional electric company instead of to oil-producing nations halfway round 
the world, then convert.

These and more are reasons for the famous "EV grin." They are mighty darn 
nice to have, IMO.

But realize that a cheap conversion kit probably will not give you new-car 
performance or reliability. In particular, you'll almost certainly have 
slower acceleration and lower top speed. You may have to give up your back 
seat for batteries. And your personal safety can suffer. In many cases the 
modifications required to accomodate batteries are extensive and 
structural. Unless you're very careful, you may compromise your vehicle's 
safety features and/or crashworthiness.

Most importantly, realize that for most folks, the EV grin doesn't come for 
free. It IS possible to do a conversion on the cheap, but the cheaper it 
is, the more effort and skill are required. See here :

http://evdl.org/docs/ev_acquisition_continuum.pdf

If you have an old car you want to save, and what you're looking for is the 
cheapest possible transportation, it's really tough to beat a good used 
engine and transmission from the boneyard. 

Simply dropping in the used engine and trans is a LOT less work than 
stripping out all the greasy bits; adapting a manual trans (in your case); 
probably upgrading the suspension and brakes to handle additional battery 
weight; measuring, designing, fabricating and welding in battery boxes; and 
finding room for all the other little bits in a car that wasn't intended to 
fit that stuff. 

Other little bits? Yep. Remember, you no longer have an engine providing 
vacuum to the power brakes. An electric motor doesn't usually idle, so you 
have to make other arrangements for alternator, power steering, and air-con, 
or do without. A motor has almost no waste heat, so you have to find another 
way to keep the windshield clear and the cabin warm in winter.

And, frankly, until gasoline hits about $5-6 per gallon, maybe more, for 
most people going the latter route will almost certainly cheaper.

But then there's that EV grin. Want one? ;-)

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

<Consider, I drive 40 miles daily, that is three gallons of gas, or $9 
daily, $45 weekly, $2,340 yearly just for gas.>

40mi takes 3 gallons of gas? Sounds like a poor candidate for 
conversion, especially if you consider that would take about 3/4 of a 
ton of lead acid.

Think more
Talk less
Become wise

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

< It also said,"But, it=92s motor is running rough and the transmission is
slipping too." That is why 40mi takes 3 gallons of gas. It did 26 city 38
highway when it was new, 10 years ago.



> <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> > <Consider, I drive 40 miles daily, that is three gallons of gas, or $9
> > daily, $45 weekly, $2,340 yearly just for gas.>
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

< It also said,"But, it?s motor is running rough and the transmission is
slipping too." That is why 40mi takes 3 gallons of gas. It did 26 city 38
highway when it was new, 10 years ago.

Why would anyone with *any* mechanical ability drive a car in such 
horrible condition? My 1996 Saturn gets 35 in town, but I don't claim 
to train people in EV maintenance and would just buy another beater if 
my car was that wasteful.

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> On 3 Aug 2009 at 22:40, [email protected] wrote:
> 
> > Why would anyone with *any* mechanical ability drive a car in such
> > horrible condition?
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Here in Florida, in the farmland rural areas, I see a lot of "Beaters" from
the eighties and older on the road, just smoking along, "Just the Wife's
car, or a work truck for commuting." [We don't have required inspections or
smog checks here in Florida.]

Oh and by the way, the piece is a fictional article for my Son's newsletter.
Hypothetical, and not intended to be incisive, I didn't start out to engage
you, Sorry, Dennis



> <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> > < It also said,"But, it?s motor is running rough and the transmission is
> > slipping too." That is why 40mi takes 3 gallons of gas. It did 26 city 38
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

What make and model car is it?



> Dennis Miles wrote:
> 
> > < It also said,"But, it=92s motor is running rough and the =
> 
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> David Roden <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> > On 3 Aug 2009 at 22:40, [email protected] wrote:
> >
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

I don't know that there is any make or model, since this is a hypothetical
article to discuss EV conversions -- not a specific question, as I
understood it.

Z



> Roger Heuckeroth <[email protected]>wrote:
> 
> > What make and model car is it?
> >
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

>
> < It also said,"But, it=92s motor is running rough and the transmission is
> slipping too." That is why 40mi takes 3 gallons of gas. It did 26 city 38
> highway when it was new, 10 years ago.

Well, what is it?

I remember the first rule I was told, pick a car you like. I always
wanted a 300zx so I bought one for 300 that had the motor out and
converted it.

In retrospect, 87 300Z's are heavy, a 240Z or a 280Z would have been
better and I like those too.

26-38 and you like it, sounds perfect!

The 40 mile is the kicker. It may be on the edge for the lead pack that
will fit.
Is it 20, sit for 8 hours then 20 more? 40 each way, charge at work?
To go 40 miles daily, you'll want a pack that can do 60 miles. That way
as the batteries age a little, you still can use the car!

I hate to mention this for a noob, but those lithium-ion's are looking
good on the long view, No-ones really had them long enough to say.

I'll invite others to attack these calculations, I am not great with them.

But if we look at a car that does 26-38 I think we can guesstimate
250wh/mile

60 miles * 250 wh/mile is 15kwh
if we pick 156 Volts that is 96ah

In lithium-ion that is 49 100ah cells which is $5400.00 before BMS and
is advertised to 2000 cycles if used 80% DOD, 3000 at 70% (40/60 is 67%)
so maybe 2500 cycles * 40 miles is 100,000 miles?
But the tricks are must have a BMS and you can't really pull that many
amps out. 3C (3 * 100Ah as amps) =3D 300A.
For a small car 300A will do, but with the pack voltage so low, you will
be in current limit a lot.
The pack's base weight would be 350 lbs so it would help get your 250
wh/mile

Contrast that with lead.
Pukert gets in the way with lead, we must make sure we use the 1 hour rate.
trojan T-105 62 lbs each and 225ah at 20h rate-- 1 hr rate is 128ah
so 20 of them would be 120V and 1220 lbs, hard to keep your 250wh/mile
and performance would suffer and space too.
rated cycle life is 750 so they have to be replaced 3 times more than
above. (some say more because they loose range on each pack and have to
be replaced sooner than loosing range on the 1 pack would.)

But they only cost about $150.00 each and BMS can just be overcharge and
add water. Very noob-tolerant.
$3000 pack.

So over twice the $ for lithium-ion in the short run
lighter, more room, but less amps and less tolerant.

This comparison wasn't even practical a few years back, but lithium-ion
has come down and lead has gone up.

I run AGM's all the cost and none of the cycle life  LOL



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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Jeff Shanab wrote:
> > In lithium-ion that is 49 100ah cells which is $5400.00 before BMS and
> > is advertised to 2000 cycles if used 80% DOD, 3000 at 70% (40/60 is 67%)
> > so maybe 2500 cycles * 40 miles is 100,000 miles?
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Jeff Shanab <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> > >
> > > < It also said,"But, it=92s motor is running rough and the transmission=
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Hello Phil and You-All,
This is my 5th e-mail since I opened this topic 2 days back. I have been
stunned at all the interest. I have owned over 25 vehicles in the past 40
years and some were great and some were less than great. there were only a
few I wish I had kept instead of trading in or selling privately. Only 4
were "New" all the others were private purchase except 4 from used dealers.
I wish I had kept the '69 Cougar, '72 Challenger,'74 Gremlin-X, '82 AMC
Spirit, '68 Chevy-Van '77 Dodge Ram-Van, '86 Wagoneer 4x4, '94 Olds 88
Royal, and '07 Windstar. But of these only the Olds is parked in the back
yard. While we are driving a '96 Dodge Ram 2500 V-10 for towing the Horse
trailer, and a '00 Ford Explorer as the primary family "shuttle bus." My
Wife commutes 10+10=20 miles daily, I'm not commuting, and my son commutes
35+35=70 miles daily. Yes our gas bill is about $100 weekly. So I'm
considering converting the Olds for the Wife. It has a worn out 200,000 mile
engine, I would replace the automatic with a 5 speed and an 8 inch motor
with 144 volt in 6 v. PbA golf batteries from Sam's Club, belt driving the
accessories from the motor back shaft for vacuum pump, steering pump
Alternator, and AC Compressor. Six batteries in front and six in trunk with
a modified trunk by boxing in the space where the gas tank was for trunk
space and putting batteries under back window in front of trunk, close to
rear axle not hanging 4 feet farther back near the bumper. Put the
controller under the dash on passenger side and use another duct and blower
to cool it dumping heat outside or into defogger vents to keep fog off
windshield. No other heat needed, but must have AC 10 months out of 12.
Outside temperature stays 87 to 99 daily, here in Florida.
I have allways considered it an uncomfortable idea to buy a beater to
convert you have no history with. " Better the Rat you Know than the Rat
you Don't Know!" as my Father in Law used to say about Politicians on
election day. So convert a car you already know and LOVE if you can. And
that was what my original post was trying to say. Sorry I am so rambling.
Regards to All
Dennis Miles



> Phil Marino <[email protected]> wrote::
> 
> > If I understand correctly, the original post was fiction.
> > He was trying to prove a point, but I can't figure out what it was.
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Dennis,

If I read you correctly you're talking about converting a 1994 Olds 88
Royale. According to edmunds.com the curb weight on the base model of that
car (likely the lightest of the various versions) is 3439 lbs. Adding in 24
6v batteries means you're probably increasing the weight by at least 1000
lbs and may end up with a beast that weighs in at well over 4500 lbs after
the conversion. That seems like one heavy EV to try to push around. I'd
rethink the 8" motor and consider at least at 9" if that's the car you truly
want to convert. Having a motor with a tail shaft is also likely
necessary given your need for AC.

You might want to do the numbers and figure what hypothetical range you
might expect using the EV calculator:
http://www.evconvert.com/tools/evcalc/

You'll have to gather some data to do it properly (the Olds isn't listed as
one of the default cars so you'll have to create your own custom profile).
You might find the coefficient of drag and frontal area for it or a
near-equivalent at: http://www.mayfco.com/tbls.htm

Gear ratios can be had from the shop manual for the transmission you plan to
use (multiply the transmission values by the "final gear ratio" from the
shop manual for the Olds; those calculated values are what you enter into
the EV calculator).

Battery data should be available from the battery manufacturer.

Good luck.

Peter Flipsen Jr
Pocatello, ID
http://www.evalbum.com/1974



> Dennis Miles <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> > Hello Phil and You-All,
> > This is my 5th e-mail since I opened this topic 2 days back. I have been
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Dennis Miles wrote:
> > So I'm
> > considering converting the Olds for the Wife. It has a worn out 200,000 mile
> > engine, I would replace the automatic with a 5 speed and an 8 inch motor
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

That was my first thought, also - the 8" motor is too small. Use a 9" ADC or 
Netgain, or maybe an 11" Netgain.

You'll have trouble getting 20 miles with only 144V of T-105's, although it 
might be possible. Use a smaller car if you can, or a light truck (Datsun, 
Nissan, or even an S10 would be good).

Joseph H. Strubhar

Web: www.gremcoinc.com

E-mail: [email protected]


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "SLPinfo.org" <[email protected]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, August 05, 2009 9:41 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] I LOVE My Car lets Convert it to Electric


> Dennis,
>
> If I read you correctly you're talking about converting a 1994 Olds 88
> Royale. According to edmunds.com the curb weight on the base model of 
> that
> car (likely the lightest of the various versions) is 3439 lbs. Adding in 
> 24
> 6v batteries means you're probably increasing the weight by at least 1000
> lbs and may end up with a beast that weighs in at well over 4500 lbs after
> the conversion. That seems like one heavy EV to try to push around. I'd
> rethink the 8" motor and consider at least at 9" if that's the car you 
> truly
> want to convert. Having a motor with a tail shaft is also likely
> necessary given your need for AC.
>
> You might want to do the numbers and figure what hypothetical range you
> might expect using the EV calculator:
> http://www.evconvert.com/tools/evcalc/
>
> You'll have to gather some data to do it properly (the Olds isn't listed 
> as
> one of the default cars so you'll have to create your own custom profile).
> You might find the coefficient of drag and frontal area for it or a
> near-equivalent at: http://www.mayfco.com/tbls.htm
>
> Gear ratios can be had from the shop manual for the transmission you plan 
> to
> use (multiply the transmission values by the "final gear ratio" from the
> shop manual for the Olds; those calculated values are what you enter into
> the EV calculator).
>
> Battery data should be available from the battery manufacturer.
>
> Good luck.
>
> Peter Flipsen Jr
> Pocatello, ID
> http://www.evalbum.com/1974
>
> On Wed, Aug 5, 2009 at 10:07 AM, Dennis Miles <[email protected]> 


> > wrote:
> >
> >> Hello Phil and You-All,
> >> This is my 5th e-mail since I opened this topic 2 days back. I have been
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Hmmm,
My S10 weighed exactly 5000 lbs with me in the driver seat
(according to the weightbridge at the recycling station)
That was including about 1800 lbs of lead, as the truck
was about 3000 with the AC drive installed.
Not so much lighter than the proposed vehicle.

The 8" motor may be plentiful if the way it is driven is
to use the correct RPM range, never lug it, and no serious
hills in his area.
But that is also a matter of taste and what performance
you expect. One person finds a car with 2.5 liter engine
underpowered and has trouble even merging onto the freeway
while someone like me flies around all traffic with just 
800cc under the hood (Daewoo Matiz). Probably because I 
do not like braking and I do like anticipating very much.

My EV was also underpowered for the weight it had, but as
long as keeping the speed up as much as possible, I could
manouvre around traffic and more than keep up with most
of the traffic, though at the Freeway I would stay mostly
in the "truck" lane to conserve energy as the truck would
use so much less power doing an easy 55 than trying to 
follow the 65/70 speed in the other lanes.
Total time lost by conserving energy was either nil or one
round of the traffic lights, while I had almost doubled my
range by cutting power consumption almost in half.

BTW, the increase in weight did not much impact the total
power consumption when at speed, only the take-off would
cost more. So the choice of motor is determined also by
the daily driving pattern - if it is smooth traffic or a
lot of stop and go makes a difference in the amount of
power (and heat) in the motor...

I would have no problem selecting an 8" and installing a
good blower on it plus temp sensor in the brushes and
possibly one attached to the windings (it may already
have one there)

Success,

Cor van de Water
Director HW & Systems Architecture Group
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
Email: [email protected] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [email protected]
Tel: +1 408 383 7626 magicJack: +1 408 844 3932
Tel: +91 (040)23117400 x203 XoIP: +31877841130

Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail.
-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On
Behalf Of joe
Sent: Thursday, August 06, 2009 12:37 AM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] I LOVE My Car lets Convert it to Electric

That was my first thought, also - the 8" motor is too small. Use a 9"
ADC or 
Netgain, or maybe an 11" Netgain.

You'll have trouble getting 20 miles with only 144V of T-105's, although
it 
might be possible. Use a smaller car if you can, or a light truck
(Datsun, 
Nissan, or even an S10 would be good).

Joseph H. Strubhar

Web: www.gremcoinc.com

E-mail: [email protected]


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "SLPinfo.org" <[email protected]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, August 05, 2009 9:41 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] I LOVE My Car lets Convert it to Electric


> Dennis,
>
> If I read you correctly you're talking about converting a 1994 Olds 88
> Royale. According to edmunds.com the curb weight on the base model of

> that
> car (likely the lightest of the various versions) is 3439 lbs. Adding
in 
> 24
> 6v batteries means you're probably increasing the weight by at least
1000
> lbs and may end up with a beast that weighs in at well over 4500 lbs
after
> the conversion. That seems like one heavy EV to try to push around.
I'd
> rethink the 8" motor and consider at least at 9" if that's the car you

> truly
> want to convert. Having a motor with a tail shaft is also likely
> necessary given your need for AC.
>
> You might want to do the numbers and figure what hypothetical range
you
> might expect using the EV calculator:
> http://www.evconvert.com/tools/evcalc/
>
> You'll have to gather some data to do it properly (the Olds isn't
listed 
> as
> one of the default cars so you'll have to create your own custom
profile).
> You might find the coefficient of drag and frontal area for it or a
> near-equivalent at: http://www.mayfco.com/tbls.htm
>
> Gear ratios can be had from the shop manual for the transmission you
plan 
> to
> use (multiply the transmission values by the "final gear ratio" from
the
> shop manual for the Olds; those calculated values are what you enter
into
> the EV calculator).
>
> Battery data should be available from the battery manufacturer.
>
> Good luck.
>
> Peter Flipsen Jr
> Pocatello, ID
> http://www.evalbum.com/1974
>
> On Wed, Aug 5, 2009 at 10:07 AM, Dennis Miles <[email protected]> 


> > wrote:
> >
> >> Hello Phil and You-All,
> >> This is my 5th e-mail since I opened this topic 2 days back. I have
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

I read:

6 in front
6 in trunk where gas tank was
and putting batteries under back window in front of trunk.

So apparently 12 are somewhere between the back seat and trunk.

Regards,

Cor van de Water
Director HW & Systems Architecture Group
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
Email: [email protected] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [email protected]
Tel: +1 408 383 7626 magicJack: +1 408 844 3932
Tel: +91 (040)23117400 x203 XoIP: +31877841130

Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail.
-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On
Behalf Of John G. Lussmyer
Sent: Wednesday, August 05, 2009 9:52 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] I LOVE My Car lets Convert it to Electric



> Dennis Miles wrote:
> > So I'm
> > considering converting the Olds for the Wife. It has a worn out
> 200,000 mile
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Cor van de Water <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> > I read:
> >
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Dennis Miles <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> >
> >
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

>
>


> Jeff Shanab wrote:
> >
> >> > In lithium-ion that is 49 100ah cells which is $5400.00 before BMS and
> >> > is advertised to 2000 cycles if used 80% DOD, 3000 at 70% (40/60 is 67%)
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

There's no way a V6 94 olds 88 weighs 1850lbs !
Title is wrong.

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Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Jeff Shanab wrote:
> > energy
> > 15kw --> 24320 Sweet!
> >
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

>
>


> Jeff Shanab wrote:
> >
> >> > energy
> >> > 15kw --> 24320 Sweet!
> ...


----------

