# Range Race



## ZenDaddy (Jul 22, 2008)

Please clarify;

You have an idea for a race or are you entering a race?

The range race would be cool. Extending range while maintaining performance is the goal of every ev converter here.

Set up the race, set rules, find a venue, get sponsers (battery, motor, controller, (etc) manufacturers would be my target), create a reward ($?, recognition?) and you will have converters lining up. Me included.

It would serve to advance the cause!

ZD


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## rfengineers (Jun 2, 2008)

reddwarf2956 said:


> I have an idea for a car race where speed is not the big issue, but range is the big issue.
> 
> It does require the EV to have enough driver, passenger, and cargo space for people with luggage - which can be simulated in the real race. To keep the speeds reasonable, the driver must drive 500 km in 4hr or 600 km in 5 hr. Then an hour break, for lunch, battery recharge or battery exchange, do any other pitstop needs. After the break, drive back to starting location for the finish. There should be no concerns for fires like laptop batteries fires.
> 
> ...


Assuming a very low rolling resistance, highly aerodynamic, vehicle I would estimate about 125kWhr to complete your 500km race in 4-hours. That is about $40,000 in LiFePO4 cells.

The real problem is not the cost or size of the battery pack, but the presumption that an EV must REPLACE an ICEV. Extreme range at high speed will remain the purview of the ICEV for the foreseeable future. The strength of the EV is in replacing the ICEV for the short-range, low-speed, around-town driving situations. This is where the ICEV is least efficient and the EV excels. It is also where the majority of most peoples driving needs reside.


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## reddwarf2956 (Dec 1, 2008)

rfengineers said:


> Assuming a very low rolling resistance, highly aerodynamic, vehicle I would estimate about 125kWhr to complete your 500km race in 4-hours. That is about $40,000 in LiFePO4 cells.
> 
> The real problem is not the cost or size of the battery pack, but the presumption that an EV must REPLACE an ICEV. Extreme range at high speed will remain the purview of the ICEV for the foreseeable future. The strength of the EV is in replacing the ICEV for the short-range, low-speed, around-town driving situations. This is where the ICEV is least efficient and the EV excels. It is also where the majority of most peoples driving needs reside.



First, is you presumption that ICEV must go 120 mph plus because NASCAR drivers drive that fast? I hope you say no, because that is my presumption - speed is not everything. The same is true with this idea for a race. The idea comes from the history of Indy cars. The first Indy 500 races were of cars made to be fast for there time, but also tested the reliablity of the cars of the time to travel 500 mile at average speeds of around 55 mph. With EVs, we do not have a pushing force to do better like a popular car race. And you see the results, short-range, low-speed.

Second, thinking that short-range, low-speed is the only place for EVs is not a good presumption. Why think inside a box? Peak-oil and the harms of the last 8 years by Big Oil has shown us that we must change. If we do not develope the cars and trucks that people need, not just want, we will have a very dim future. Think of it like a seat belt -- if it is not built-in, how can you wear it? If batteries are not designed and built for fast, long ranges, how do you expect them to be installed?

Third, your estimate of about 125kWhr means that the recharge during the hour "lunch" would require the batteries and charger to handle 125 KW. There is a lot of talk of doing this yet a race like this would be a good proving point. This includes ideas like Project Better Place, ultracaps, and other things. How many people know about these ideas and which one is better?

John W. Nicholson


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## reddwarf2956 (Dec 1, 2008)

ZenDaddy said:


> Please clarify;
> 
> You have an idea for a race or are you entering a race?
> 
> ...



I don't have a EV nor the money. So, it has to be an idea for a race. How to make it happen is the real question. Yes, the setup, rules, and finding a venue, and other things is just outside of my knowledge base. But, with NASCAR hurting, I bet they would love to see something new to work on.

John W. Nicholson


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## DavidDymaxion (Dec 1, 2008)

These guys http://www.savethesalt.com have been trying to get an enduro on the Salt Flats.


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## TX_Dj (Jul 25, 2008)

Hey John! Nice to see you've come over to the forum.

Lots of great and knowledgeable people here.

But... I didn't see where RFEngineers presumed we'd be doing 120 MPH in this race. You said 500km in 4 hours or 600 km in 5 hours... That's 120-125 kph, which is 75-77 mph average speed... meaning of course, they'd have to go faster than that for most of the 310-370 mile race to obtain that average.

As I'm sure you are aware from all the discussions we've all had at the NTEAA meetings and on the message list, the faster you go, the more you burn out of the battery.

RFEngineers estimation of 125 kWh battery to accomplish this is based on a 330-400 Wh/mile consumption, which is probably even a little low at 80 mph. Once my S10 is built, I'd expect that kind of consumption for low speed travel, and of course he's talking about a light weight aerodynamic vehicle.

If we were to use something like Mike's brother's Trike, loaded down with LiFePO4 instead of SLA, then maybe only 93 kWh would be needed, at most. To pull that off we'd need about 650 Ah of LiFePO4 at 144v. That'd be 65 of the LifeBatt 144v/10Ah modules, at a list price of $195,000.

That's a little more costly than our scooter challenge at the November meeting.


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## reddwarf2956 (Dec 1, 2008)

TX_Dj said:


> Hey John! Nice to see you've come over to the forum.
> 
> Lots of great and knowledgeable people here.
> 
> ...



DJ,

You are correct with the speed being in the 70's. The idea is to make the race's goal not speed but instead distance. Most people will find that speeds in the 70's is near the maximum speed that they travel. The distance is set by time. I figure that a person driving after breakfast will travel about 4-5 hours before taking a break for lunch, then travel another 4-5 hours before resting over night. By setting this as a goal, this makes the challenge to be near what people want in there current ICE car for a day. 

I am sure for the first try at running the race there will not be a car to make the distance, so the car that travels the longest distance should be considered the winner. 

Yes, I am expecting that the batteries to be a light, like LiFePO4's, but that should not be a limitation of the race. Other battery types would be allowed if they are fire safe. In other words cobalt based laptop batteries would not be used. 

As for battery "burn out," that is part of the challenge. In fact, that is the reason for the "lunch" break to make a swap out of the battery or recharge them. But, if you mean that the batteries can not be reused, then the Idea maybe extended to more than one day and travel across the nation with night time recharge being a requirement for all batteries being used. You could limit the number of batteries to say 3. As to make reuse of the recharged batteries happen.

A cruse control, regenerative braking, and regenerative shocks can be used. This would make the most efficient use of the batteries in the respect of speed. This would also make the stay in the 70's range for nearly 99% of the distance traveled.

The reason that I mentioned the car to have driver plus 3 "dummy" passengers and cargo space was to make the vehicle as near a ICE sedan as possible. I know that the number of batteries makes this hard to do. But that is part of the design and the race.

I know that the current cars can not meet the finish line with out major changes. I know that the pack needed would be big. And, I know that it would be hard to exchange or charge the batteries. That is the point of the race, push the technology forward.


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## rfengineers (Jun 2, 2008)

reddwarf2956 said:


> First, is you presumption that ICEV must go 120 mph plus because NASCAR drivers drive that fast?
> ...
> Third, your estimate of about 125kWhr means that the recharge during the hour "lunch" would require the batteries and charger to handle 125 KW.
> 
> John W. Nicholson


John,

I suggest you go back and read my post again. I never said anything about 120 mph. You apparently read 125kWhr and thought it said mph.

My objection stands. You insist on comparing an ICEV to an EV. You are implying that an EV is not useful unless it can replace an ICEV.

It's like saying that a Honda sedan is useless compared to a Mack truck because the truck can haul a much bigger load. The truth is, they are different tools with different functions.

You want an EV/ICEV race? Have them run around a large city with speed limits between 15 and 45mph and lots of traffic lights. Then require the contestants to drive from place to place to place, stopping to pick-up or deliver something at each place. Limit the EV to 500 pounds of batteries and limit the ICEV to one gallon of fuel.

Such a race would be as unfair to the ICEV (since it performs worst under such conditions) as your proposal is to the EV.


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## reddwarf2956 (Dec 1, 2008)

rfengineers said:


> John,
> 
> I suggest you go back and read my post again. I never said anything about 120 mph. You apparently read 125kWhr and thought it said mph.
> 
> ...


The problem is you are making a whole lot of bad assumptions. 

1. You have assumed that when you used "Extreme range at high speed will remain the purview of the ICEV for the foreseeable future." that I would know what "high speed was to you. I don't. In fact, the 120 mph was in a question of mine. Is that "high speed"? For a NASCAR driver no, for me, yes. For you?

2. And, Extreme range is another assumption. For an electric race car that is designed to travel long distances what is extreme and at what speed is it traveling? What is range for an EV running xxx speed? You can not tell unless you have a meter - a race.

3. I know that you do not know me. So just realize that I do know that electric cars and trucks CAN DO MORE than what your presumption of what I think. I fact I want to see my presumptions broke. But, that will not happen by saying ICEV are better for ... (some silly reason that has nothing to do with electric car range racing).

4. Your EV/ICEV race is not a bad idea, but its goal has nothing to do with mine. But, I would suggest that you have a required range of 150 miles on a charge as to make the race to have an end. If it did, then it sounds like a pizza delivery driver could use an EV. If not, back to the race drawing board. I know commuter use is not the end all of electric cars. But, the result of your type of race does not change my goal.

5. How many ICEV drivers drive at peak speed or range for every time they hop in there car or truck? Not many. Yet, every EVer I have come across is measuring the limits inside a major city (like Dallas/Fort Worth) that they can travel. I want to brake that issue. To do that I suggest races which force competitive solutions. Yours with my modification is one, mine is another. I am sure others can be made.

6. Mac Trucks are raced. But have any EV Mac trucks range raced? Until they do, this all silly to have me read about how silly Honda and Mac truck racing.

JN


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## rfengineers (Jun 2, 2008)

reddwarf2956 said:


> 1. You have assumed that when you used "Extreme range at high speed will remain the purview of the ICEV for the foreseeable future." that I would know what "high speed was to you. I don't. In fact, the 120 mph was in a question of mine. Is that "high speed"? For a NASCAR driver no, for me, yes. For you?


I was using the term 'High speed' as defined by your original post, 500 km in 4 hours, or thereabouts.



reddwarf2956 said:


> 2. And, Extreme range is another assumption. For an electric race car that is designed to travel long distances what is extreme and at what speed is it traveling? What is range for an EV running xxx speed? You can not tell unless you have a meter - a race.


Same as 'High Speed'. I was indicating that 500 km was extreme range.



reddwarf2956 said:


> 3. I know that you do not know me. So just realize that I do know that electric cars and trucks CAN DO MORE than what your presumption of what I think. I fact I want to see my presumptions broke. But, that will not happen by saying ICEV are better for ... (some silly reason that has nothing to do with electric car range racing).


But that is my point, an EV and an ICEV are two different animals. An EV is a wonderful vehicle for some purposes, an ICEV is great in other areas. Certainly there is some overlap, but for the most part people do EVs a disservice by pointing at their weaknesses when compared to an ICEV, e.g. "EVs are range limited and take a long time to refuel." I respond to that by pointing to an ICEV's weakness when compared to an EV, e.g. "they are horribly inefficient for short trips and stop-and-go driving."



reddwarf2956 said:


> 4. Your EV/ICEV race is not a bad idea, but its goal has nothing to do with mine. But, I would suggest that you have a required range of 150 miles on a charge as to make the race to have an end. If it did, then it sounds like a pizza delivery driver could use an EV. If not, back to the race drawing board. I know commuter use is not the end all of electric cars. But, the result of your type of race does not change my goal.


I don't mean to say that your race idea is bad, just that it pits an EV at its weakest against an ICEV at its strongest.



reddwarf2956 said:


> 5. How many ICEV drivers drive at peak speed or range for every time they hop in there car or truck? Not many.


Ah, but they should! Park the ICEV next to the boat and motor home and only use it when you need its strengths! Likewise, use the EV when you need that short-trip, stop-and-go vehicle.


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## reddwarf2956 (Dec 1, 2008)

rfengineers said:


> I was using the term 'High speed' as defined by your original post, 500 km in 4 hours, or thereabouts.


That to me is normal highway speeds. Yes, it is high for most drivers, but as for racers most will just laugh. I realize that the goal is not speed, instead pushing the limits of range for EVs. This being said, ICEVs have nothing to do with this type of race. So just drop it with all of the ICE BS.



rfengineers said:


> Same as 'High Speed'. I was indicating that 500 km was extreme range.


For now that may seem like a extreme range for an EV, but I know that it can be met. Now how to do it is up to people who like a good challenge.



rfengineers said:


> But that is my point, an EV and an ICEV are two different animals. An EV is a wonderful vehicle for some purposes, an ICEV is great in other areas.


Give you a hint, one day the world is going to run out of oil, or everyone outlaws the use of burning oil products for fuel for environmental reasons, or both reason will stop the use. Then all of your talk about this is moot. If EVs have to fill the void then there will be an issue. And, how we get there, filling the void, is what this race is about. If EVs are not used to fill the void for when oil is gone, then what will?  (hmmm, I wonder.)

Plus, buying the batteries and racing, showing the way that they can do better are ways to lead to lower the price of batteries. By buying a for race cars, (which needs advertisment support) people will see which brand works best. And, then they buy their products.  And here is another shock, the EV products raced would be the products they would be trying to retail!  




rfengineers said:


> Certainly there is some overlap, but for the most part people do EVs a disservice by pointing at their weaknesses when compared to an ICEV, e.g. "EVs are range limited and take a long time to refuel." I respond to that by pointing to an ICEV's weakness when compared to an EV, e.g. "they are horribly inefficient for short trips and stop-and-go driving."





rfengineers said:


> I don't mean to say that your race idea is bad, just that it pits an EV at its weakest against an ICEV at its strongest.


It does not. In my race, ICEVs are not allowed.  This means that the thing that really matters is "how to do it". Not, the "can it be done better." Once the race is done with the minimim limits set forth, then the race can become "can it be done better." Until then, the race will be who can go the fartherest on one charge at about 75 mph. But, I am willing to bet a small wager that this will be done in a few years after the first race. And when that does happen, the race becomes one of how low mass the car can become while being able to have high mass production.



rfengineers said:


> Ah, but they should!


No! That is why there are race tracks and race strips. So that crazy people (I would not drive that fast.) can go very extremely fast in circles and strait lines. And for EVers, no because 75+ mph is not legal in most cities. In other words we don't want to cause safety issues for the public.

Let me put it a different way, both ICEVs and EVs can go faster than faster than 75 mph, so speeds at normal highway speeds is not an issue. What needs to be changed is batteries, battery pack setup and usage -- that is the challange of this race. How do you swap or recharge a 125 kWh (your guess of the power size, I just wonder about the mass, charge charactor, and physical size of this thing and where will it go in/with the EV ) battery pack within an hour? What type Lead Acid or Li-ion of some sort or some other unknown as of now? There are many more questions that the racers will come across. They will cross that bridge.



rfengineers said:


> Park the ICEV next to the boat and motor home and only use it when you need its strengths! Likewise, use the EV when you need that short-trip, stop-and-go vehicle.


I don't care what you do with your ICEV nor your EV.

I do care about getting the EVs around me to be true method of transportation of the near future. Not after we run out of oil in the far future. 

Translation: near future -- peak oil is happening now or soon, depletion of oil production will happen after that until we run out or limit ourselves. This final depletion will happen in the far future.

And, I do care about a good fair useful race!

JN


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## rfengineers (Jun 2, 2008)

reddwarf2956 said:


> I do care about getting the EVs around me to be true method of transportation of the near future.


This is the point I am trying to make. EVs are not the universal answer to transportation, and people who continue to imply that an EV must have the range and performance of a COMPLETELY DIFFERENT vehicle to be successful are impeding the acceptance of the EV.


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## Zemmo (Sep 13, 2007)

I say we race space shuttles and see who wins, you know to the grocery store and back. Once you say it out loud it sounds silly, doesn't it. 

There is already an EV race out there for distance. It is called a solar race, which they have been doing for years and have made great strides at it. Thats where a lot of technology has been developed that has helped EVs.

It is a nice dream, this race you are talking about. But I think thats where it will end up staying. You have made several references to NASCAR, if you think about the sedans they race with. They really aren't even sedans any more. About the only commonatilty they have is 4 tires and look some what alike. Everything else about them is totally race setup.


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## reddwarf2956 (Dec 1, 2008)

rfengineers said:


> This is the point I am trying to make. EVs are not the universal answer to transportation, and people who continue to imply that an EV must have the range and performance of a COMPLETELY DIFFERENT vehicle to be successful are impeding the acceptance of the EV.


You must love thinking in a box! Try getting out for a while! Let me try this again. Indy cars are not raced on the streets yet they are some of the peak speed, distance performers. Funny cars are just one type of drag racer. NASCAR has their on type of cars. 

Now, EVs have? Just a few drag race catagories and weird looking solar car races every other year by college kids. There are people who sees that a EV can go fast in a short distance compared to a ICE - kind'da like a horse v. human race (the human wins in the short distance the horse wins the long distance). But, you can also see you know humans do go faster than horses with a little help with engineering. But (as you are saying with EVs to ICEs), we should not be racing cars, only horses because they are different. OK, a car can beat a horse, so what lets race cars and you can race horses! Now, lets apply this to EVs and ICE. OK, you have a an ICE great you can go race it. I will try to get EVers to race EVs. But, if you do not allow range races the public will not know what the range is with EVs and how they are improving on a simple measure. All that I am asking for is to allow the engineers to do there work, but push them into a useful product that all street EVers can use. 

What you keep pushing is IT WILL NOT WORK! IT WILL NOT WORK! STOP IT, IT WILL NOT WORK! 

Why? It will work! You just have not thought about how to build the car in a way to win this race.

For starters, I did not say that you have to use a stock car, future cars, which use batteries as the main source of power, will have to place the batteries in places that are "fuel tank compartment" and "engine compartment" like but be "battery compartment" and "motor compartment". A suden will not look the same because of this. I am not a good stylest, so don't ask me how it will look, but I will have a "home" for a option like long range batteries. This home might be pulled by a trailer. It might have something that we have not thought of yet. That is the point I have. 

Let's engineer better EVs while racing EVs for long range.

Here is an idea that should be engineered: 1 mt - 100km battery modules ( a metric ton, mt is about the same wieght as a ton mass). Every EV mass produce battery pack must have a module system in which for every metric ton mt a battery pack with enough kWh of power to travel 100 km @ 120 kph (and using the aerodinamics of a brick) or about 60 miles @ 75 mph.

This would mean that with a EV racer going 500km that he would have to have the space for 5 modules if the cars mass, with batteries, is under 1 mt. If its mass is 2 mt then 10 modules should cover it.

Cars can then make a module count as a selling point. Something like "Our car has a 3 module range of 350 km." Another car maker might say "Our car has a 4 module range of 550 km." Which car do you want?

Now how would this racer look like with that many modules in a battery pack?
JN


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## rfengineers (Jun 2, 2008)

Reddwarf, (Can I call you Red?)

First let me apologize if you think I am attacking you personally. That was not my intent. It is often easy to read malicious intent in the written word when none was intended.

Let me try again to explain my position. I drive an EV and frequently speak about it to the public. One common theme I run into is this: "This car is not useful because it won't do the things that my conventional car will do." I find myself in the position of having to explain how an EV is useful. I've come to realize that, unless the public's perception of what an EV is changes, it is unlikely that they will gain significant acceptance.

I believe that your proposal stresses the importance that an EV perform like a gasoline or diesel powered vehicle. That is the thinking I take issue with. I view it as a perpetuation of the myth that those parameters are vital to the success of the EV. 

An EV is limited in range when compared to an ICEV. This is not a defect. It is a characteristic of battery powered vehicles. 

A Lamborghini can't tow as much weight as my pickup truck. This is not a defect. It is a characteristic of a sports car.

I'm fear we both may have been leaning towards a less then civil tone in our exchange. I apologize for this and would like to continue this debate in a friendly manner. 

Joe


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## reddwarf2956 (Dec 1, 2008)

rfengineers said:


> Reddwarf, (Can I call you Red?)


No, but John is fine. Red Dwarf 2956 is my red Honda Insight which was the 2956th one built. I don't have full EV, but close. Heee heee.



rfengineers said:


> First let me apologize if you think I am attacking you personally. That was not my intent. It is often easy to read malicious intent in the written word when none was intended.


Joe,

Good, I would hate think that you think that I am some jerk that did not understand the people like to race things. Wait a minute, I don't understand why people race things, but they do. So, I say, let them have some fun and race. But do it in a way which allows us to benefit by having some useful product that most EV people can use. 

I too am not attacking you personally. I know that you and many in EV groups do not see things like I do (two of the people who replied are friends in my local EV group. But, there are people which do see that things can be done to make more EVs. I am one of those people.

Maybe you have heard of White Zombie, WZ? John Wayland (who did have an Honda Insight running down the drag strip years ago.) owns WZ. It is a street legal EV, but it can do over 100 MPH down the strip. Now, he uses products like Mozillia and they get customers because they see a product that works in a street legal race car and they want it in their EVs. The problem is that it works too well for Mozillia, the owner has froze production for health reasons - over worked. 

And that is just the controller. No one has made a large quick change battery for EVs. If you get a battery pack made, then it takes what seems like forever to change it if you wanted to. It is like the idea by Project Better Place, http://www.betterplace.com/ , but with one difference. Why be limited by one battery pack? A second battery pack is just like an ICE with a second fuel tank. Yes, the weight of the battery / fuel and tank will shorten the range, but if the b/f&t along with a larger motor / ICE are big enough it will go farther than without the extra battery / tank. No, the range of the batteries are different than the range with the fuel tank, but this does not change the physics.

Yes, I did say physics. I know a bit on this subject. Let use some. And I will let you find the numbers to plug into the first equation at this solar electric car race wikipedia page:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_car_racing#Performance_Equation

Here is another:
http://autoxprize.typepad.com/axp/2007/10/the-car-equatio.html



rfengineers said:


> Let me try again to explain my position. I drive an EV and frequently speak about it to the public. One common theme I run into is this: "This car is not useful because it won't do the things that my conventional car will do." I find myself in the position of having to explain how an EV is useful. I've come to realize that, unless the public's perception of what an EV is changes, it is unlikely that they will gain significant acceptance.


 Yes, I have seen what you are talking about here. On one level you are correct. People expect an electric to do things just like move them around while being comfortable and relaxing. But, I find that there is not a founded on physics. It is founded on design and what limits the designer sets. See the second link above to understand why I say this.

Currently the design is set for what ICE car makers want. In the future with electric cars are most likely going to be plug-in hybrid cars. Why, because ICE makers want to keep the foot hold even if they are being push out the door. We know gas prices are just temporarily down, and when the prices goes to 5.00/gal we will be looking removing the ICE forever. 

If electric car companies are going to make it they will have to do it on their on. But, there will be two types of electric car, ones which also allow the car to swap the batteries easily and the other which does not. If the majority of the cars are using not swapable batteries then the outlook of all electric cars is dim. But, if the batteries are swapable then the all electric car will have a home in most house garages. 

But then there may be some new technology like from EEstor which would throw this paragraph in the waste bin. http://www.evworld.com/news.cfm?newsid=19987

To develop the swap system or some other system, we need a challenge for the car makers. This is where the first link above comes in. If you set the parameters to calculate the range of car that you want, you can shoot for making a car with these parameters. Just to make my point I went and made a spreedsheet which is attached.



rfengineers said:


> I believe that your proposal stresses the importance that an EV perform like a gasoline or diesel powered vehicle. That is the thinking I take issue with. I view it as a perpetuation of the myth that those parameters are vital to the success of the EV.
> 
> An EV is limited in range when compared to an ICEV. This is not a defect. It is a characteristic of battery powered vehicles.
> 
> A Lamborghini can't tow as much weight as my pickup truck. This is not a defect. It is a characteristic of a sports car.


Not true. I know that current EVs do not perform like ICEVs. But, there is a clear demand for them to be as good. An example to help you see what I mean. 

In your Lamborghini / pickup example, can not drive very well on dirt roads of the country, but the pickup would work well. In fact, the only thing a Lamborghini is good for is show and tell how much money you have spent. And, I don't care about that. So, what is that pickup good for? Well, if you have a small family, it can cover the driving need of some one with and you can move large things with it. And a lot of other things. But if the pickup is a ICE and we are really pass peak oil, then we have some real problems ahead. How does a person go from a rural ranch/farm to town if town is 50 miles away? So the ICE and ICE to EV convertion pickup has issues too.

To solve this we need to have races like they had a century ago. EV were at the time the main car on the roads. In road a ICE racer said 'my car is better than your car' and the next thing was a race. For years EVer have lost this race because of what you state. " An EV is limited in range when compared to an ICEV. " That is a loser mentality because you did not want to make it to the starting line. I say that it is not the car makers that should build a electric car that is needed to go farther, but instead racers, building their own cars, from which they want to win. We the EVing community can then use the results to travel better and farther. We can then ask "Why can you make these in mass production?" to the car makers.

Why should we limit ourselves?



rfengineers said:


> I'm fear we both may have been leaning towards a less then civil tone in our exchange. I apologize for this and would like to continue this debate in a friendly manner.
> 
> Joe


Joe, I do agree that it is not in our interest to have a uncivil tone. But, it is not in our interest to have you to keep saying 'no' when it can be done and needs to be done. Maybe not done the way you like, but it can be done; the physics proves that it can be done.

If you still do not get it, reread my messages for the content not the tone.

John Nicholson


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## DavidDymaxion (Dec 1, 2008)

There is more EV racing than that. Electrathons are distance competitions. EVs compete in autocross, and http://www.proev.com/ does electric road racing. There are regular electric land speed assaults.

While it is not exactly an enduro, road racing and land speed racing lead to vehicles that would have long ranges. For instance, the Tesla going 55 miles on Top Gear is as good as my gas car does on the race track.

I think an inherent problem to long range "races" is it is not as exciting for spectators. Driving slowly and smoothly is boring to watch. It also gobbles up alot of expensive track time. You are almost forced to run enduros at legal speeds, on public roads.

Why not try to arrange a range rally coupled with a NEDRA or Salt Flats event yourself? Get accurate scales, seal the gas cap, and gassers could join the fun, too.



reddwarf2956 said:


> ... Now, EVs have? Just a few drag race catagories and weird looking solar car races every other year by college kids. There are people who sees that a EV can go fast in a short distance compared to a ICE - kind'da like a horse v. human race (the human wins in the short distance the horse wins the long distance). But, you can also see you know humans do go faster than horses with a little help with engineering. But (as you are saying with EVs to ICEs), we should not be racing cars, only horses because they are different. OK, a car can beat a horse, so what lets race cars and you can race horses! Now, lets apply this to EVs and ICE. OK, you have a an ICE great you can go race it. I will try to get EVers to race EVs. But, if you do not allow range races the public will not know what the range is with EVs and how they are improving on a simple measure. All that I am asking for is to allow the engineers to do there work, but push them into a useful product that all street EVers can use. ...


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## reddwarf2956 (Dec 1, 2008)

DavidDymaxion said:


> There is more EV racing than that. Electrathons are distance competitions. EVs compete in autocross, and http://www.proev.com/ does electric road racing. There are regular electric land speed assaults.
> 
> While it is not exactly an enduro, road racing and land speed racing lead to vehicles that would have long ranges. For instance, the Tesla going 55 miles on Top Gear is as good as my gas car does on the race track.
> 
> ...


David,

Thanks for the really cool link. If the history is correct, then that is really cool to win and end to the drought.

Did I see correctly, the car has a false floorboard as to hold the batteries below between the real floor board and the false one?

After I saw the reason for choosing the chassis and saw the coefficient of drag, CD, is .32 for the chassis I am wondering is there a information bank on the CD, mass and other useful racing information?

I might be needing to change my racing thoughts of not competing with ICEs.  

"Electrathons"?? This is the first I have seen of any thing with them. OK, I googled it. So it basically racing go-karts that are electric. I did not see that they have a minimum speed?

In a way, I do not have a problem with the idea of keeping the speeds legal. But, I know that most people bump up the speed to 10 even 20 mph over the speed limit and other things. Plus, most street and highway driving is not flat. At the same time, I know what you mean about the slow speed trip issue for watchers. I figure if it is over a distance which is historical, beautiful, or both, then it would have some merit to watch or even run. Because of digital video, and the internet the racers can record their action and then edit the boring stuff out to a size for most to watch. In a way, I can see how it can connect the end of a event as you stated as a start or ending point.

If the car is built to just work with flat land, then it will be under powered for climbing mountains. Isn't there a race on Pikes Peak? Like Fastest to the top and back down? OK, maybe not off-freeway race. Since the highest speeds street legal while climbing is on freeways.

JN


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## dogstar74 (Dec 6, 2008)

Why not a Cannon Ball Run? Coast to coast race. First one to the finish line is the winner. There would be mountain ranges to traverse. Long stretches to navigate. All battery sizes and types could be used. Then you would have to stop only to sleep, and charge. Onboard batteries only. No switching packs. This would encourage speed as well as distance goals by the teams. 

First one to the end gets $100K prize. That would just about pay for the tesla. After a few years, you'd see times starting to come down, and better performance etc. 

Just a thought.


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## grayballs (Aug 27, 2008)

dogstar74 said:


> Why not a Cannon Ball Run? Coast to coast race. First one to the finish line is the winner. There would be mountain ranges to traverse. Long stretches to navigate. All battery sizes and types could be used. Then you would have to stop only to sleep, and charge. Onboard batteries only. No switching packs. This would encourage speed as well as distance goals by the teams.
> 
> First one to the end gets $100K prize. That would just about pay for the tesla. After a few years, you'd see times starting to come down, and better performance etc.
> 
> Just a thought.


 
Now, this is an idea,,, with the onboard packs and a major distance, the battery companies might begin to produce. ($100,000 won't provide the necessary incentive but even NASCAR didn't start out with the kind of money that they offer today) Some of this "vaporware" that we read about might finally come about. At the least we would probably see battery tech. evolve,,, energy density climb,,, charge times shrink,,, oh yeah


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## DavidDymaxion (Dec 1, 2008)

What is your car? 0.32 Cd is pretty good.

The U.S. government EPA website has great stats on car weight, gas mileage, power to go 55 mph, etc. The site is something like gasmileage.epa.gov 

http://www.carpoint.com is a good place to find a car's weight.

There is a program, I think it is called cartest, that accurately predicts 1/4 mile performance. It has a great database of car parameters.

For rule of thumb stuff, gas mileage is a good proxy for how efficient a car is.

Electrathons don't have a minimum speed that I am aware of. They can go pretty fast on the Salt Flats, though! Some has gone over 100 mph. You can read some about them on my web site:

http://explodingdinosaurs.com/saltflats/2008/electrathon/index.html
http://explodingdinosaurs.com/saltflats/2007worldofspeed/electrathon/index.html

I'm not sure where exactly the electric imp puts all its batteries, but I think some are held vertically under the hood.

You are right a car optimized for top speed may not be as good at climbing hills. An electric Pike's Peak race would be great. There has been one electric that has done that.



reddwarf2956 said:


> David,
> Thanks for the really cool link. If the history is correct, then that is really cool to win and end to the drought.
> 
> Did I see correctly, the car has a false floorboard as to hold the batteries below between the real floor board and the false one?
> ...


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## ZenDaddy (Jul 22, 2008)

David!

(Off topic, sorry)

Nice to see you on this forum!

Michael

A.K.A. ZD


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## reddwarf2956 (Dec 1, 2008)

[quote=dogstar74;92530]Why not a Cannon Ball Run? Coast to coast race. First one to the finish line is the winner. There would be mountain ranges to traverse. Long stretches to navigate. All battery sizes and types could be used. Then you would have to stop only to sleep, and charge. Onboard batteries only. No switching packs. This would encourage speed as well as distance goals by the teams. 

First one to the end gets $100K prize. That would just about pay for the tesla. After a few years, you'd see times starting to come down, and better performance etc. 

Just a thought.[/quote]

Hey Dogstar,

I guess a lot of people ask if "Are you Sirius?"

That would be about like the solar race. And the X-prize for going to out space. I don't know the planed route for the X-prize car race, but it is open to just about any car that the owner thinks it can do better than 100 mpg or equivalent. 

That is cool in a way, but it is still not really pushing the goal of making EV a marketable car or truck with a very long range. In a way your idea is good, but the thing that I remember with that movie is the carelessness and dirty tricks of the drivers. 

I know that a century ago drivers were wondering about crossing the nation with a gas car and that was a big deal. I think that a towards my idea, but would be longer than a day. Hard to keep the race watchers eyes going for that long. But it might be done too. Just have get the right kind of press coverage that states that the race is just the first one. Others well be faster because of less charging time, or something. 

Hummm, I just thought of something. Drive 5 hours, charge or swap in a 1 hour. Shifts with six drivers; three in the car and three more flying ahead, call the press, and go to meet at a night rest. The team would do as you were saying about cross country. That might be better still.

Has any electric car or truck done a cross country trip? If there is one which has where is the information on it? What rules was it under? If not, lets start to make some rules for a good race. How about the route changing every year, I-10 one year, the next would use the next northern, I-20 along with other freeways, continue until each year until I-90. This would change the landscape and the race making it a great show for Speed Channel and even the Travel Channel. 

A single team is not enough for a race; we need to have several teams as to compete. But, the start time can be like the solar car race starting 1 minute apart so the cannon ball run movie kind of event is not an issue. There might need to be a one or two day break as to refresh the support crews following along and teams. 

I am now thinking about the cost. I wonder who would support this event? My first guess is that battery, controller, and motor makers would step up if their products were used and advertised.


JN


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## dogstar74 (Dec 6, 2008)

Obviously, I don't envision hijinks like happened in the movie. And as far as speeding goes, well, you can do it if you think your pack has the power, but you'd trade distance for speed. 

This would be a balance of long stretches across nebraska for long distance records etc. For example, the guy that traverses nebraska at 55 mph and only has to charge twice, would do better than the 75mph guy that has to stop 4 times to recharge. Unless his pack allows for rapid recharge or something. Then he may feel inclined to push the legality of the 75 mph speed limit. See! it would be fun! And hill climbing such as along I80 from SLC to Evanston. Or I70 from Grand Junction CO to Denver. Plus a coast from Aspen to Denver may aid the guys who incorporate regenerative braking. 

As long as the battery packs are isolated in the car in such a way that they couldn't be tampered with without destroying the official attached tag. Similar in a way to the metal tags that port of entry officials put on semi truck trailers that cannot be removed without destroying the numbered tag.

Also you could get a hotel chain, (major chain) to sponsor the event. They could offer lodging and PLUG IN SERVICE COAST TO COAST for the racers. In exchange for great footage to put in comercials of the participants raving about the good night's stay they had while their batteries charged up. Could be a good image for the hotel chains!

Ok, Discuss....


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## ToyBuilder (Dec 23, 2008)

So, referring to the initial post on this thread, you suggest a distance race within a set period of time. If I had one to two hours as a spectator, I might enjoy something like this. Perhaps a heavy technology preview before the race to get an estimate of the capacity of the equipment being used by each contestant. A challenging race may tell me more about equipment, pack designs, cooling systems, wheel sizes, aerodynamics, driver skills, controller settings and programming, etc. Would it even the playing field to place a limit on voltage and amps could be applied to a vehicle? Perhaps the driver should weigh in. Perhaps rules like sheding parts during the race could be restricted. Maybe race teams running multiple vehicles in special categories will result in more lessons learned. Perhaps a pre race (a drag race, a lap cost in volts race, a distance coast from top speed race, ...). I can come up with fun ideas, but we are treading new waters here.


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## jeepusr (Jan 1, 2009)

reddwarf2956 said:


> I have an idea for a car race where speed is not the big issue, but range is the big issue.
> 
> It does require the EV to have enough driver, passenger, and cargo space for people with luggage - which can be simulated in the real race. To keep the speeds reasonable, the driver must drive 500 km in 4hr or 600 km in 5 hr. Then an hour break, for lunch, battery recharge or battery exchange, do any other pitstop needs. After the break, drive back to starting location for the finish. There should be no concerns for fires like laptop batteries fires.
> 
> ...



This reminds me of this:
http://www.batteryfacts.co.uk/images/History/ElectricCar.jpg


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## reddwarf2956 (Dec 1, 2008)

jeepusr said:


> This reminds me of this:
> http://www.batteryfacts.co.uk/images/History/ElectricCar.jpg


Nice photo. I wonder what the speed was to go 1000 mile on (guessing here) lead acid batteries? I am sure it was not any where near 70 mph.

JN


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## reddwarf2956 (Dec 1, 2008)

DavidDymaxion said:


> What is your car? 0.32 Cd is pretty good.


I have a Honda Insight. 0.25 Cd and a small frontal area too. Which is one reason for the 50 mpg I get even doing 70-80 mph on most drives on the freeways near me.

But, I know this is not the car that I want to convert. For a simple reason -- I use it NOW to get to work and back.

And the chance of getting a second is slim to none. So, I know that I will need to find the info for another ICEV as to make it a donor.



DavidDymaxion said:


> The U.S. government EPA website has great stats on car weight, gas mileage, power to go 55 mph, etc. The site is something like gasmileage.epa.gov
> 
> http://www.carpoint.com is a good place to find a car's weight.
> 
> ...


To me that make total sense. But, it does not tell the cause to well. I might be because of frontal area, Cd or light weight. And on the other side, there is the question of space. Where to store all of the batteries needed for a round trip to max range? A good list of cars and truck that tell the max battery space available without loosing function would be great. And, one which also placed the mpg, frontal area, Cd, and gross and curb weights would be even better.




DavidDymaxion said:


> Electrathons don't have a minimum speed that I am aware of. They can go pretty fast on the Salt Flats, though! Some has gone over 100 mph. You can read some about them on my web site:
> 
> http://explodingdinosaurs.com/saltflats/2008/electrathon/index.html
> http://explodingdinosaurs.com/saltflats/2007worldofspeed/electrathon/index.html
> ...


I wonder how long it toke to climb and if more was done?

JN


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## reddwarf2956 (Dec 1, 2008)

ToyBuilder said:


> So, referring to the initial post on this thread, you suggest a distance race within a set period of time. If I had one to two hours as a spectator, I might enjoy something like this. Perhaps a heavy technology preview before the race to get an estimate of the capacity of the equipment being used by each contestant. A challenging race may tell me more about equipment, pack designs, cooling systems, wheel sizes, aerodynamics, driver skills, controller settings and programming, etc. Would it even the playing field to place a limit on voltage and amps could be applied to a vehicle? Perhaps the driver should weigh in. Perhaps rules like sheding parts during the race could be restricted. Maybe race teams running multiple vehicles in special categories will result in more lessons learned. Perhaps a pre race (a drag race, a lap cost in volts race, a distance coast from top speed race, ...). I can come up with fun ideas, but we are treading new waters here.


Sounds like you are on the same page, but there is a lot of stuff that I am not sure about.

No, I do not think there needs to be a limit on voltage or current these would be limited by speed and range. The lower the current usage the better the chance of going the distance. Higher the voltage lower the current needed. But, higher voltage means higher battery mass. So, lower distances because more power is needed. 

Yes, a weigh-in would be a good idea. I think the mass needs to be the gross of four adults going on a trip which has cargo and space requirements for the cargo. Also, the comforts of air conditioning, gps, stereo, powered everything - windows, doorlooks, etc. This would make the car or truck fun to drive/ride while going the distance. They must work also. 

Also, a water and ice 'leak" test needs to be done. As to push problems out during rain, heavy and light, ice, or snow driving. Yes, the race would only not be run if the roads are closed by public officials for weather conditions.

I think the contestant should add weight just like a tourist would do.

As for more cars per team, more power to them. 

Fun is what I am pushing for, but I also want to see EV products which work for EVers too.

JN


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