# [EVDL] Zivan charger and Deka gel batteries



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> David Peichel wrote:
> 
> > The first phase is at constant power while the
> > voltage climbs to 14.1V per battery. The second phase holds
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

I charge Deka Dominators to 14.3 volts and get excellent service. I don't 
recommend exceeding that value under any circumstances.

I think East Penn will void your warranty if they find that you've exceeded 
14.1 volts, their spec. Mine are long out of warranty. I've been using 6 
of them in my Elec-Trak tractor for 10 years now. Still going strong.

A friend of mine used to have a Zivan charger. He was never able to get a 
profile in it that would not murder his (flooded!) batteries. He ran into 
the same problem - the US distributor would not set the profile the way he 
wanted it.

Victor's Brusa chargers are completely user-programmable, very flexible, 
extraordinary quality, made in Switzerland. They're pricey, but maybe not 
when you consider the quality level and features you get. They do have one 
relatively low-cost model which might meet your needs. Ask Victor.

If you want something cheaper and your system voltage is moderate, I suggest 
you talk to Roger about a Delta-Q charger (designed in Canada and made in 
China). I think they have a 96v model, though it's not listed in the spec 
sheet. You might be able to use two lower voltage chargers, but then you'd 
probably be getting closer to the Brusa's cost.

Russco has an IUI option for their chargers. I think they're strictly 
analog control, but Russ could tell you more. Note that unlike the Brusa 
and Delta-Q, Russco chargers are not fully isolated, but they do have a 
built-in GFI.

East Penn's quality control is unusually good. Their gel batteries are very 
consistent, and usually do well without individual module regulators.

David Roden
EVDL Administrator
http://www.evdl.org/


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Where do you find these charging specs? The only thing I found on the Deka
website said never to exceed 14.1V (or the temp adjusted version of this)
and doesn't mention anything about the low current holding to finish the
charge. Based on what you have, I agree I could be okay, although I don't
understand why they feel they need to pulse the current in the final phase. 
Is there some benefit to pulsing? I have the temp probe and will make sure
to locate it in the warmed spot I can find.

I have the Azure Dynamics AC setup for my Geo Metro, and I'm doing a 156V
pack, so my max current will be 200 A. Sounds like these gels worked well
for the Solectria Forces...

Thanks for the help!
Dave




> Roger Stockton wrote:
> >
> > This type of charge profile should be just fine. It is not exceeding the
> > maximum voltage in the DEKA gel charging specs. DEKA specs something like
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

A little background (as I understand it) on VRLA batteries (Gel Cells,
AGMs, etc.)

During the final charge phase, as well as during overcharge(equalization),
a significant amount of your charge current ends up hydrolyzing the water
in the battery instead of charging the plates. This causes oxygen and
hydrogen to build up in the cells and create preassure. If the peassure
gets to high, the cells vent. The cells have a built in catalyst
(platinum usually) to recombine the H2 and O2 into water, but it can only
do this at a fairly slow rate so current during this phase needs to be
limited to a low level.

The problem with this low level current is that most of the current
actually ends up cracking the water, leaving little if any to charge the
plates. This is where the high current pulses come in, they are strong
enough to ensure the plates gets some extra charging, but are limited in
duration to give the catalyst time to recombine the H2 and O2 between
pulses and keep the cells from venting.

This is an overly simplistic explanation, and I might be wrong on a couple
minor details, but I think it covers the basics.

>
> Where do you find these charging specs? The only thing I found on the
> Deka
> website said never to exceed 14.1V (or the temp adjusted version of this)
> and doesn't mention anything about the low current holding to finish the
> charge. Based on what you have, I agree I could be okay, although I don't
> understand why they feel they need to pulse the current in the final
> phase.
> Is there some benefit to pulsing? I have the temp probe and will make
> sure
> to locate it in the warmed spot I can find.
>
> I have the Azure Dynamics AC setup for my Geo Metro, and I'm doing a 156V
> pack, so my max current will be 200 A. Sounds like these gels worked well
> for the Solectria Forces...
>
> Thanks for the help!
> Dave
>
>


> > Roger Stockton wrote:
> >>
> >> This type of charge profile should be just fine. It is not exceeding
> >> the
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

I agree with Ken. Build some batt regs to keep them equal and prevent them from reaching a voltage that causes them to vent. And definitely get the temp probe.

I have the NG3 and I've heard some stories about them cooking batteries but I've had good luck with mine over the last year. My batteries died because I hammered the dog crap out of them during driving, especially in the beginning months.

I do intend to buy the temp probe thought because in the hottest and coldest months, I think the charger could use the extra information to really optimize the profile. During the most extreme months, I was probably over and under charging a little. For sealed batteries, you really don't want them to overcharge.

If you take those precautions, I think you'll be ok but I'm not the expert. 





From: David Peichel <[email protected]>To: [email protected]: Tue, 25 Mar 2008 8:44 pmSubject: [EVDL] Zivan charger and Deka gel batteries I have a Zivan NG3 charger that I'm about to send back to Elcon forprogramming. I've been talking with them about how they will program it formy Deka Dominator group 31 gel 12V lead acid batteries....<snip>



Rich A.
Maryland
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/371.html
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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

From: David Peichel
> I have a Zivan NG3 charger that I'm about to send back to Elcon for
> programming. I've been talking with them about how they will program
> it for my Deka Dominator group 31 gel 12V lead acid batteries. Looks
> like it will use a 3 phase charge: The first phase is at constant power
> while the voltage climbs to 14.1V per battery. The second phase holds
> this voltage while the current decays to about 2A. The third phase then
> pulses the stack 5 seconds on and 5 seconds off with a current of 3.5A,
> during which the voltage is allowed to climb to some level above 14.1V. 
> The third phase continues until the dV/dt between pulses drops to below
> 10mV (per cell?) or until some time limit for phase 3 is reached (6
> hours). 

That third phase is unusual, but not necessarily a bad algorithm. I don't know how the batteries will react to that 3.5amp 5-sec on/off routine. It sounds like something done more for the charger's benefit than for the battery's.

> Of course, I've very nervous about how this charger will exceed the
> maximum voltage in the Deka gel charging specifications. This is my
> first conversion and I don't want to be another person who murders
> their first battery pack.

Deka gels have the potential to last a very long time, and Deka seems to know what they're talking about on charging them. Their recommendations are pretty conservative, which leads to slow charging; but seems to do well for battery life.

> So their approach may be more or less okay if you don't mind trading
> off a little cycle life for balancing the battery stack.

That would be my guess. Elcon's algorithm may also increase capacity per cycle, but reduce the total number of cycles.

> I asked Elcon if they could change to profile to give me what I wanted,
> but they did not want to be responsible for a charging profile other
> than what they are offering.

My guess is that they will not take responsibility for *anything* that happens to your batteries, no matter what profile they provide. The warranty (if any) comes from your battery vendor. So, I would suggest following whatever profile the *battery* maker wants if you expect them to honor your warranty.



--
Those who say it cannot be done should not interrupt the one who is
doing it. -- Chinese proverb
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart-at-earthlink.net

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> davep wrote:
> 
> > Where do you find these charging specs?
> 
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> EVDL Administrator wrote:
> 
> > If you want something cheaper and your system voltage is
> > moderate, I suggest you talk to Roger about a Delta-Q charger
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> I have the Azure Dynamics AC setup for my Geo Metro, and I'm
> doing a 156V pack, so my max current will be 200 A.

Expect dismal performance in acceleration. This is even less power
available than my (relatively small and light) truck has and it is a slug.

My truck: mid 80's Toyota pickup (on the outside),
3200 lbs,
120V @ 350 max battery amps.
0-60 mph in 1 minute 20 seconds

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Peter VanDerWal" <[email protected]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, March 26, 2008 8:27 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Zivan charger and Deka gel batteries


>> I have the Azure Dynamics AC setup for my Geo Metro, and I'm
>> doing a 156V pack, so my max current will be 200 A.
>
> Expect dismal performance in acceleration. This is even less power
> available than my (relatively small and light) truck has and it is a slug.
>
> My truck: mid 80's Toyota pickup (on the outside),
> 3200 lbs,
> 120V @ 350 max battery amps.
> 0-60 mph in 1 minute 20 seconds

> Ha! I THOUGHT my Rabbit was slow! 0 to 80 in ONE minute in the Acela 
> Express by Amtrak! Pedal to the mettle start! Dry Rail. With about 330 
> hostages, er, I mean ,passengers aboard! Gotta time the Sentra, 
> ........dusting off the hourglass!

Seeya in the slo lane!

Bob
> _______________________________________________
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> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev 

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> My truck: mid 80's Toyota pickup (on the outside),
> 3200 lbs,
> 120V @ 350 max battery amps.
> 0-60 mph in 1 minute 20 seconds

> Ha! I THOUGHT my Rabbit was slow! 0 to 80 in ONE minute in the Acela 
> Express by Amtrak! Pedal to the mettle start! Dry Rail. With about 330 
> hostages, er, I mean ,passengers aboard! Gotta time the Sentra, 
> ........dusting off the hourglass!

Didn't I see something about someone figuring out how to add a bypass
contactor to get full current? Add a micro switch to the throttle for full
acceleration. It would act like the old automatic kick down switch (for us
older drivers)


Mark Grasser
Balyntec
Marine Products, LLC
828-581-4601
[email protected]


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> My truck: mid 80's Toyota pickup (on the outside),
> 3200 lbs,
> 120V @ 350 max battery amps.
> 0-60 mph in 1 minute 20 seconds

Hmmm, 3200 lbs @ 60 mph is around 523kJ of KE. Spread over 80 seconds that's
an average of 6.5kW delivered (ignoring drag). That's significantly less
than 42kW of battery power. Any idea where all the power is going?

Steve


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

After reading all the comments on NG3 charging, I am wondering if my 
approach to this problem is sound. Here is my experience. I am interested 
in any suggestions.

I have an NG3 120Volt on board with 12 120 pound UB4D AGM batteries. My 
charger was exceeding the battery manufacturers recommendation (14.1 - 
14.4). I don't know how high it would go, I pulled the plug at 175 volts. 
in stage one, it was supposed to stop at 171 volts. I turned the voltage 
down to 168 volts as a stage one terminating voltage.

I decided my battery pack is worth more than the charger. I took the cover 
off and turned town the voltage.

I then found stage three was peaking its pulses at 180 volts. I am pulling 
the plug early in stage three.

I use eleven battery Cheq equalizers. I prefer this to overcharging to 
equalize the batteries. I don't know if they will work with 31 batteries? 
I know of one person using them with 24 batteries, but they say 12 batteries 
is best.

In the end you are the one who, I believe is responsible for your battery 
life. I wish I could program the charger myself. I would like it to stop 
after stage two is finished. I am thinking about a clock where I can set 
the time. I find, I need about three hours of charge for every 10 miles.

http://www.lococo.org/Electric%20Truck/99%20Ranger.htm

You can search the document for NG3 and/or battery to find info about my 
experience.

I know the Deka Dominator Gels, are designed to vent, so you may be OK. 
Most of the posts seem to agree on that. Check your individual voltages. 
Do something to keep therm in line with each other. Whether it is 
equalizers, controlled pulsed over charge or individual battery charged with 
a six volt charger.

Cheers,
Al Lococo

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "David Peichel" <[email protected]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, March 25, 2008 9:44 PM
Subject: [EVDL] Zivan charger and Deka gel batteries


>
> I have a Zivan NG3 charger that I'm about to send back to Elcon for
> programming. I've been talking with them about how they will program it 
> for
> my Deka Dominator group 31 gel 12V lead acid batteries. Looks like it 
> will
> use a 3 phase charge: The first phase is at constant power while the
> voltage climbs to 14.1V per battery. The second phase holds this voltage
> while the current decays to about 2A. The third phase then pulses the 
> stack
> 5 seconds on and 5 seconds off with a current of 3.5A, during which the
> voltage is allowed to climb to some level above 14.1V. The third phase
> continues until the dV/dt between pulses drops to below 10mV (per cell?) 
> or
> until some time limit for phase 3 is reached (6 hours).
>
> Of course, I've very nervous about how this charger will exceed the 
> maximum
> voltage in the Deka gel charging specifications. This is my first 
> conversion
> and I don't want to be another person who murders their first battery 
> pack.
> They claimed that for traction batteries, this is okay to do and will not
> shorten the life of the batteries (but couldn't explain why). I'm
> speculating that the goal was to trade off a little bit of over-voltaging 
> to
> help keep the batteries in the stack better balanced, since undercharging
> can also be a problem in the long run. I did a little research and found
> some stuff about how a small amount of gassing will recombine and not be a
> problem, and someone else claiming a trickle current of 1/100th the power
> rating is okay (which would be 1 A for this battery, which we are pretty
> close to here given the 50% duty cycling of the 3.5A).
>
> http://vrlabattery.onesite.com/blog/2007/12/20/a_comparision_of_agm_and_gel_
> sealed_lead_acid_batt
>
> http://www.electro-tech-online.com/electronic-projects-design-ideas-reviews/
> 33539-12v-gel-lead-acid-charger-tweaking-help-needed.html
>
> So their approach may be more or less okay if you don't mind trading off a
> little cycle life for balancing the battery stack. If this is true, I wish 
> I
> could quantify it. I would appreciate any advice anyone can give me on
> whether I will be okay with this type of charging profile on a sealed gel
> battery for an EV. Unless there is some solid experience or data on this
> being okay, I'm feeling like I need to switch to a charger that will be a
> little more judicious about limiting the voltage. I asked Elcon if they
> could change to profile to give me what I wanted, but they did not want to
> be responsible for a charging profile other than what they are offering.
>
> Thanks!
> Dave
>
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>
> 

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

>> My truck: mid 80's Toyota pickup (on the outside),
>> 3200 lbs,
>> 120V @ 350 max battery amps.
>> 0-60 mph in 1 minute 20 seconds
>
> Hmmm, 3200 lbs @ 60 mph is around 523kJ of KE. Spread over 80 seconds
> that's
> an average of 6.5kW delivered (ignoring drag). That's significantly less
> than 42kW of battery power. Any idea where all the power is going?
>
> Steve
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>

Voltage sag accounts for quite a bit of it. Maximum usuable battery power
is only about 35kw. Assuming standard losses through the motor & drive
train, there is only about 25-26 kw available at the wheels.

Steady cruising power requirements at 55-60 mph has been approx 15-20 kw...

Looks like the numbers work out to me.

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For subscription options, see
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----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

I recently received a 96V Delta-Q from Canadian EV - email Randy there
if you are interested. I have not installed it yet but will be
shortly.

De



> Roger Stockton <[email protected]> wrote:
> > EVDL Administrator wrote:
> >
> > > If you want something cheaper and your system voltage is
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

From: Al Lococo
> I have an NG3 120Volt on board with 12 120 pound UB4D AGM batteries.
> My charger was exceeding the battery manufacturers recommendation
> (14.1-14.4v). I don't know how high it would go, I pulled the plug at
> 175 volts in stage one (it was supposed to stop at 171 volts).

175v is 14.58v per 12v battery; not excessive *if* you limit the amphours (time x amps).

> I decided my battery pack is worth more than the charger.

A good decision!

> I then found stage three was peaking its pulses at 180 volts.

That's 15v per 12v battery; about as high as you want an AGM to get. At this voltage, the battery is essentially fully charged. Virtually no current is going into charging; it all goes into heating, gassing, and equalization. So, it is vital to limit the time and current in this stage.

>I use eleven battery Cheq equalizers.

Batticheq? PowerCheq?

> In the end, you are the one who I believe is responsible for your
> battery life.

Very true! The battery and charger manufacturers often don't talk to each other, and neither really knows your situation as well as you do. Each has reasons to give less-than-ideal advice.

> I wish I could program the charger myself. I would like it to stop
> after stage two is finished. I am thinking about a clock where I can
> set the time. I find, I need about three hours of charge for every 10
> miles.

Ultimate, you need a way to *know* what state of charge the batteries are at. Charge until they are full, plus a few percent more to make up for losses, and then stop.

The trouble is, the charger doesn't really know the state of charge. It guesses using voltage; but voltage is a rather weak indicator. If you have a better way to know state of charge, use that instead to control the charger. It could be a hydrometer (for flooded batteries), or an E-meter or other amphour counter, or by measuring the resting voltage after sitting overnight, etc.

--
Those who say it cannot be done should not interrupt the one who is
doing it. -- Chinese proverb
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart-at-earthlink.net

_______________________________________________
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----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Lee,

Thanks for the feedback. I am using Power cheq equalizers.

I see Jeff McCabe mentioned using a clock to pull the plug at the end of 
Stage 2 before equalization starts. I may do this too.

>From what you say the charger won't hurt things much the way it is 
programmed, but still it is way over the battery manufacturers conservative 
linits at points. Especially before I turned down the voltage. I don't 
know where it was going.

I am going to keep doing what I have been, pulling the plug early in stage 
3, and from what I'm reading, and I have also done this, maybe I should stop 
at the end of stage 1. When I have done this, it hasn't had a noticeable 
affect on my range. I never get to less than 145 volts. My average trip 
ends at about 149 volts, so I don't need to drive it to 100% charge.

Thanks again.

Cheers,
Al Lococo




----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Lee Hart" <[email protected]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, March 26, 2008 8:22 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Zivan charger and Deka gel batteries


> From: Al Lococo
>> I have an NG3 120Volt on board with 12 120 pound UB4D AGM batteries.
>> My charger was exceeding the battery manufacturers recommendation
>> (14.1-14.4v). I don't know how high it would go, I pulled the plug at
>> 175 volts in stage one (it was supposed to stop at 171 volts).
>
> 175v is 14.58v per 12v battery; not excessive *if* you limit the amphours 
> (time x amps).
>
>> I decided my battery pack is worth more than the charger.
>
> A good decision!
>
>> I then found stage three was peaking its pulses at 180 volts.
>
> That's 15v per 12v battery; about as high as you want an AGM to get. At 
> this voltage, the battery is essentially fully charged. Virtually no 
> current is going into charging; it all goes into heating, gassing, and 
> equalization. So, it is vital to limit the time and current in this stage.
>
>>I use eleven battery Cheq equalizers.
>
> Batticheq? PowerCheq?
>
>> In the end, you are the one who I believe is responsible for your
>> battery life.
>
> Very true! The battery and charger manufacturers often don't talk to each 
> other, and neither really knows your situation as well as you do. Each has 
> reasons to give less-than-ideal advice.
>
>> I wish I could program the charger myself. I would like it to stop
>> after stage two is finished. I am thinking about a clock where I can
>> set the time. I find, I need about three hours of charge for every 10
>> miles.
>
> Ultimate, you need a way to *know* what state of charge the batteries are 
> at. Charge until they are full, plus a few percent more to make up for 
> losses, and then stop.
>
> The trouble is, the charger doesn't really know the state of charge. It 
> guesses using voltage; but voltage is a rather weak indicator. If you have 
> a better way to know state of charge, use that instead to control the 
> charger. It could be a hydrometer (for flooded batteries), or an E-meter 
> or other amphour counter, or by measuring the resting voltage after 
> sitting overnight, etc.
>
> --
> Those who say it cannot be done should not interrupt the one who is
> doing it. -- Chinese proverb
> --
> Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart-at-earthlink.net
>
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>
> 

_______________________________________________
For subscription options, see
http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> On 26 Mar 2008 at 18:20, Al Lococo wrote:
> 
> > I know the Deka Dominator Gels, are designed to vent, so you may be OK.
> 
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> EVDL Administrator wrote:
> 
> > On 26 Mar 2008 at 18:20, Al Lococo wrote:
> >
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

David Roden ,

"I've never heard that they are designed to vent any more than other 
valve-regulated batteries are."

I agree with that. I was just saying they can and will vent if over 
charged. In my opinion no battery should be overcharged, no matter how 
gently, (i.e. pulsing) if your concerned about maximum life.

I don't have Dominators. I was referring to their patented vent which I 
first heard about from electro automotive in answer to my question about 
equalizers. This is what they said:

"When charging a string of batteries in series, some will come to full
charge before the others and gas a little bit while the others come
up to full. On flooded batteries, this means you have to add water
occasionally. On sealed batteries, you can't add water, so you need
to avoid the gassing as much as possible. Dekas have a special
patented vent that releases pressure in a microsecond burst with very
little loss of electrolyte."

I decided to get AGM batteries and use power cheq equalizers to keep them in 
step with each other. My only experience is with flooded batteries. I only 
have the AGMs a few months. As I said, I'm pulling the plug at the end of 
stage two and thinking maybe pulling it at the end of stage one most of the 
time.

I am interested in the experiences of people like you who have long term 
experience with the NG3 in general and also AGM batteries. From what I read 
here, the gels and the AGMs have a lot in common when it comes to charging 
requirements.

This my charging experience so far. It is in some respects sketchy. Every 
trip is recorded, but some trips lack ending voltage and charge time.

http://www.lococo.org/Electric%20Truck/Milage%20Log.htm

Keep in mind that I have the newer 110 volt NG3 without jumpers for 
programming.

Cheers,
Al Lococo



----- Original Message ----- 
From: "EVDL Administrator" <[email protected]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, March 27, 2008 1:04 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Zivan charger and Deka gel batteries




> > On 26 Mar 2008 at 18:20, Al Lococo wrote:
> >
> >> I know the Deka Dominator Gels, are designed to vent, so you may be OK.
> >
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> On 26 Mar 2008 at 6:27, Peter VanDerWal wrote:
> 
> > Expect dismal performance in acceleration. This is even less power
> > available than my (relatively small and light) truck has and it is a slug.
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Al Lococo wrote:
> 
> > I decided to get AGM batteries and use power cheq equalizers
> > to keep them in step with each other. My only experience is
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Roger,

Thanks for the feedback. As they say the proof is in the pudding. What do 
you think of this? I check the voltatge the nex day after the chrge is 
completed for several hours. Sometimes, if I don't use the car, it's a day 
and ahalf. The voltage before I start ou is about 155 volts (154.9 - 
155.5). Isn't that a good way to determine if it is fully charged? I have 
stopped the process at the end of stage one, but my usual routine is to let 
stage three start the pulsing and stop it early. If left alone to go to 
green, the final pulses are 180 volts. This makes me nervious.

I never have stopped stage one before it's done, only at the end of stage 
one (early stage two). I have heard of people cycling between 40% and 80% 
state of charge. You're saying you should not use this routine. Not that I 
have, but I was thinking about it, at least, sometimes.

My chart. The return voltage is measured within minutes of returning, 
before pluggin in. Perhaps the real value is higher. I know, while waiting 
for my wife in the parking lot, I have watched the needle rise on the volt 
meter.

Charge time is a guess, entered the next day based on memory of what time I 
plugged in and unplugged. It is in hours.

Drop is the drop in voltage from 155 to the return voltage. Miles per Volt 
dropped gives me an idea of far I can go based on voltage if you read the 
voltage while stopped. My goal is not to go below 144 volts. Depending on 
how aggressively you drive, you can go 2 to 4 miles for each volt above 
144. In places these numbers look funny. That is because there are two 
trips in the same day with only a partial charge inbetween. Look at the 
dates on the entry.

The trip description is useful to me, because, as you can see, many of these 
trips are repeated over and over again. I have experimented with shifting, 
and decided for me with my gear ratios, second gear works well from 0 to 55 
mph. I get gacceptable accelleration in almost all cases. Sometime I will 
use first, if I am on an uphill grade. Hard to find in Florida. I will 
stop logging soon. I hope this log will be useful as the batteries age. 
This log should serve as a benchmark for comparison.

Someone had mentioned a charger that you can program yourself. I have to 
look that up. For now I will keep doing what I'm doing, if you agree that 
155 volts starting voltage is fully charged. I will abandon the idea of 
skipping stage two.

All of my assumptions, good and bad, are in my Design Document, you may have 
seen it.

http://www.lococo.org/Electric%20Truck/99%20Ranger.htm


My assumptions about state of charge, gear ratios, etc. are included.

Thanks for your help.

Cheers,
AL Lococo




----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Roger Stockton" <[email protected]>
To: "'Electric Vehicle Discussion List'" <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, March 27, 2008 3:39 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Zivan charger and Deka gel batteries




> > Al Lococo wrote:
> >
> >> I decided to get AGM batteries and use power cheq equalizers
> >> to keep them in step with each other. My only experience is
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Al Lococo wrote:
> 
> > Thanks for the feedback. As they say the proof is in the
> > pudding. What do you think of this? I check the voltatge
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> On 27 Mar 2008 at 15:49, Al Lococo wrote:
> 
> > I don't have Dominators.
> 
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Roger,

Well, tankyou. It is hard to get critisism. It takes time to look over 
someelses design and make constructive ideas.
I appreciate it.

I have wanted to get to a plug and drive circumstance. Getting home and 
popping the hood and putting the Fluke on is a pain. I have been thinking 
about just using the analog volt meter which is a little rough. I'll try to 
keep the log going.

I have not been sure that the charger was a real problem, That is after I 
turned it down to 168 volts. I did this because the battery manufacturer 
is adamant about 172.8 volts (14.4 per battery) maximum charging voltage. I 
had some batteries as high as 14.9 when the voltage got started rising to 
the mid 170's. The charge algorythim from Zivan was spectd to peak at 171.

The manufacturers discharge graph starts at 13 volts per battery. The 100% 
SOC for the pack would be 156 volts then. I am comming within a few tenths 
of a volt from this. So I will try letting it run to end of stage three for 
my weekly charge after my 26 mile trip for lunch with the guys. Let's see 
if that gets me to 156 volts.

Let me ask you this. Do you agree that 40% SOC or 60% DOC is a reasonable 
floor. I mean 144 volts, maybe that's 35% DOC. What is OCV? I am curious 
about my maximum useful range on the one hand, but on the other hand the car 
meets my needs without making unnecessary endurance runs.

You are right I am not an aggressive driver. I use the ammeter to help me 
get the best range with the least drain on the battery. I know this is how 
many Prius drivers get their best mpg. I have a big investment in batteries 
and I want maximum battery life possible. I hope I am on the right track.

Cheers,
Al Lococo
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Roger Stockton" <[email protected]>
To: "'Electric Vehicle Discussion List'" <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, March 27, 2008 6:07 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Zivan charger and Deka gel batteries




> > Al Lococo wrote:
> >
> >> Thanks for the feedback. As they say the proof is in the
> >> pudding. What do you think of this? I check the voltatge
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Al Lococo wrote:
> 
> > I have not been sure that the charger was a real problem,
> > That is after I turned it down to 168 volts. I did this
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

David,

I have to apologize,we have drifted a little from the original subject of 
the thread. I have an NG3 charger but not dominators, and you are in the 
reverse circumstance.

Never the less, we have some things in common and I have, with the help of 
your comments, Rogers and others, reshaped my thinking. Thanks to all for 
that.

I have been too conservative in avoiding over charge. I am trying to get to 
the optimal balance as you have pointed out. I hope this has beeen usful to 
the original poster, as it has been for me.

Thanks, again.

Cheers,
Al Lococo
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "EVDL Administrator" <[email protected]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, March 27, 2008 8:04 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Zivan charger and Deka gel batteries




> > On 27 Mar 2008 at 15:49, Al Lococo wrote:
> >
> >> I don't have Dominators.
> >
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Well, for what it's worth here is my experience.

I have the same NG3 with the same profile except the T2 current is 2.5 
amps.

The car is driven (aggressively) every day and gets three complete 
cycles each day - including the pulse phase.
1) drive to work, charge. 2) drive to lunch, run errands, charge. 3) 
drive home, charge.
Each charge runs all three phases completely. The "high" batteries 
reach up to 16 volts during the pulse on, near the end of the pulse 
phase (204 volts total). Note: as the dt/dv (rate of voltage change 
between pulse on and pulse off) decreases, the on pulses get shorter. 
Eventually, the pulses are just a few milliseconds long.

Occasionally, the car will make a very short trip or just get moved 
around in the driveway. It always gets plugged back in and the Zivan 
skips to the pulse phase. So, sometimes it gets extra pulse phase 
charging.

No battery has ever gassed. This same routine takes place all year, 
cold and hot. It gets hot, here in Austin Texas. Often the Zivan would 
not charge after the drive home during July to September, because the 
ambient temperature is over 120 degrees. By ambient, I mean the car 
body, batteries etc. The pavement temperature is over 140 degrees. I 
would have to park in shade open everything up and put fans on it to 
get it under 120 degrees before the Zivan would run. At the end of each 
charging session after the Zivan turns off, the AH reads +2. Each 
morning, after the pack has sat for about 10 hours off charge, the 156 
volt pack is sitting at 168 volts.

With all this, I got well over 500 cycles out of the first set of 
Optimas. I replaced them with a set of Odyssey PC1200's. The original 
set of Optimas are still good and are being used as a stationary test 
pack for Hot Juice Electric.

Ken



-----Original Message-----
From: Al Lococo <[email protected]>
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <[email protected]>
Sent: Thu, 27 Mar 2008 2:49 pm
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Zivan charger and Deka gel batteries



David Roden ,

"I've never heard that they are designed to vent any more than other
valve-regulated batteries are."

I agree with that. I was just saying they can and will vent if over
charged. In my opinion no battery should be overcharged, no matter how
gently, (i.e. pulsing) if your concerned about maximum life.

I don't have Dominators. I was referring to their patented vent which I
first heard about from electro automotive in answer to my question 
about
equalizers. This is what they said:

"When charging a string of batteries in series, some will come to full
charge before the others and gas a little bit while the others come
up to full. On flooded batteries, this means you have to add water
occasionally. On sealed batteries, you can't add water, so you need
to avoid the gassing as much as possible. Dekas have a special
patented vent that releases pressure in a microsecond burst with very
little loss of electrolyte."

I decided to get AGM batteries and use power cheq equalizers to keep 
them in
step with each other. My only experience is with flooded batteries. I 
only
have the AGMs a few months. As I said, I'm pulling the plug at the end 
of
stage two and thinking maybe pulling it at the end of stage one most of 
the
time.

I am interested in the experiences of people like you who have long 
term
experience with the NG3 in general and also AGM batteries. From what I 
read
here, the gels and the AGMs have a lot in common when it comes to 
charging
requirements.

This my charging experience so far. It is in some respects sketchy. 
Every
trip is recorded, but some trips lack ending voltage and charge time.

http://www.lococo.org/Electric%20Truck/Milage%20Log.htm

Keep in mind that I have the newer 110 volt NG3 without jumpers for
programming.

Cheers,
Al Lococo



----- Original Message -----
From: "EVDL Administrator" <[email protected]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, March 27, 2008 1:04 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Zivan charger and Deka gel batteries




> > On 26 Mar 2008 at 18:20, Al Lococo wrote:
> >
> >> I know the Deka Dominator Gels, are designed to vent, so you may be
> OK.
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Thanks Ken, this is useful to compare my 156volt
pc15oo pack to.
Your right, the overnight ocv is right around 168+
Jeff McCabe


> --- [email protected] wrote:
> 
> > Well, for what it's worth here is my experience.
> >
> ...


----------

