# Re: [EVDL] run away [ accelerator pedal ]



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] run away [ accelerator pedal ]*

I got it how about an ejector seat and a parachute!

No seriously, the simplest solution is probably the best solution. 
KISS principal... and don't use components that are undersized for the 
application. Whether it be a contactor or a circuit breaker, whatever 
your using as your final line of defense against a shorted controller, 
it should be able to handle the job of disconnecting the battery pack 
at maximum current.

In the past people on this list have suggested that using multiple 
breakers and/or contactors that add up to the maximum current, or 
voltage is OK. Don't do it folks. Weakest link theory. Each one 
should be able to do the job on its own. I don't care if the 
manufacturers say its OK to double things up. They are assuming the 
products will work together. If one fails, or opens 10 ms after the 
first, guess what is going to happen. 

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] run away [ accelerator pedal ]*

>
> I got it how about an ejector seat and a parachute!
>
> No seriously, the simplest solution is probably the best solution. 
> KISS principal... and don't use components that are undersized for the
> application. Whether it be a contactor or a circuit breaker, whatever
> your using as your final line of defense against a shorted controller,
> it should be able to handle the job of disconnecting the battery pack
> at maximum current.
>
> In the past people on this list have suggested that using multiple
> breakers and/or contactors that add up to the maximum current, or
> voltage is OK. Don't do it folks. Weakest link theory. Each one
> should be able to do the job on its own. I don't care if the
> manufacturers say its OK to double things up. They are assuming the
> products will work together. If one fails, or opens 10 ms after the
> first, guess what is going to happen.

I suggested contactors in series, one in the positive and one in the
negative. However, I hope that was not taken as dividing the voltage.
And contactors or fuses or switches in parallal cannot be compared to in
series.

I do advocate 2 switches in series, each with full rating (and with
motoring) to Increase safety.

case 1: one contactor welded close. No propulsion and controller should
refuse to pull in other contactor.
case 2: both contactors welded close.
case 2.1 happens while driving. Bad, need emergancy disconnect like
mid pack breaker or det-cord battery cable.
case 2.2 Coltroller detect and refuses to accept throttle input.

The chance of gettting thru one contactor welding, ignoring a warning
light and getting to the second contactor is less probable than with
just one contactor.

Since we are talking series motors and series pack, a single pole self
healing contactor (hydrogen filled) like the EV250 seems lieka good choice.
Maybe 3 1 mid pack, 1 pos and one neg. tie mid pack to emergancy stop
button since it needs to stay on for charging. Tie neg one to key switch
on and top one to a little relay logic that takes key on and start and
not throttle, then remains on unless key returned to off.




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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] run away [ accelerator pedal ]*

I agree with the above for electrical disconnect - but this is still not
suitable for registration, as a non-electrical disconnect has to be used
(ie. full mechanical disconnect) - which only leaves two solutions I know
of:
1. A cable running to a circuit breaker switch that when pulled, activates
the circuit breaker; or
2. A cable or rod that when pulled or pushed, dislodges a fuse that is in
series with the traction packs positive of negative cable.

I'me sure there may be other fully mechanical options available, but these
are the two most basic options (read: that are not expensive to implement).
The only thing that would need to be found is a suitably sized circuit
brwaker and/or fuse to cope with the maximum current available from the
traction pack so as not to blow/break unintentionally.







> Jeff Shanab <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> > >
> > > I got it how about an ejector seat and a parachute!
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] run away [ accelerator pedal ]*

Well then back to my first chaepest suggestion,
A t-bar shaped rod thru a hole in the firewall underneath 2 fueses.
stomp on the clutch and you just have to walk back a block or so to go
get em,(if you haven't ran over them)

> I agree with the above for electrical disconnect - but this is still not
> suitable for registration, as a non-electrical disconnect has to be used
> (ie. full mechanical disconnect) - which only leaves two solutions I know
> of:
> 1. A cable running to a circuit breaker switch that when pulled, activates
> the circuit breaker; or
> 2. A cable or rod that when pulled or pushed, dislodges a fuse that is in
> series with the traction packs positive of negative cable.
>
> I'me sure there may be other fully mechanical options available, but these
> are the two most basic options (read: that are not expensive to implement).
> The only thing that would need to be found is a suitably sized circuit
> brwaker and/or fuse to cope with the maximum current available from the
> traction pack so as not to blow/break unintentionally.
> 

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] run away [ accelerator pedal ]*

But they won't use that. The big red knobs and green start buttons are low current switches controlling contactors that require constant presence of voltage to remain engaged and springs break the contact. (guys, It is mechnical, remove power and it opens)
In fact many have a current sensor that disconnects the power to the coil in overload conditions. I have seen them break under 480V 400A loads. You can hear and se it 25 feet away. I blew the 1000A 480V breaker and you can feel that one. But these are all AC, easier, smaller.

On the lathes, there was also a mechanical disconnect. for when you are doing service. these are usually panel interlocks to make sure to kill the power to the control circuit for the main contactor. Often times they are no where near the operation point. 

On the bigger machines, I am telling you a physical disconnect is not practical. They feed into the computer and power a main contactor if about 20 inputs are correct. They leave main power disconnects to the upstream breakers. If you pull the breaker handle which is about 10" long under power (rotate 90 degrees) it will pop and if you are not careful cause a lot of pain. (push on it only, do not wrap you hand around the handle and twist) Roland can probably back me up on this. 

> It sounds to me like you need a big red push button stop switch in the middle of the dash that says... "STOP" maby something from a big industrial machine(a big lathe comes to mind). Those usually have a big green push button that says "go" too!
>
> Don't reinvent the wheel you guys! There are components on the shelf to solve many of these concerns. 
>
> With a stop button like that you are also gonna help the Emergency crew to feel safe extracting you from the car when you have a regular accident! They would just have to reach in the car with a nonconductive rod and hit the stop switch to isolate the battery.

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] run away [ accelerator pedal ]*

All things mentioned since my last post are good solutions if used with a
contactor - but none are full mechanical disconnects and all rely on the
contactor to do its job - but contactors don't always do their job? When the
contacts weld and you get stuck at full throttle for whatever reason, then
you're up shit creek without a paddle as nothing will stop you safely.

A full mechanical disconnect will require some type of lever that has a
cable attached that will either flip a breaker or pull a fuse. Something as
simple as using an old "manual choke" lever should work fine, with the other
end attached to your circuit breaker switch. Pull the choke lever and the
breaker will cut power. Nice, clean, simple, effective and doesn't really on
any electrical connection, contactor or switch to work.

Remember though, this is a "last resort" lever. You can still (and I would)
run one of those "bug red button" safety switches that is connected to one
(or all) of your contactors. This way you'd have three disconnect options:
1. turn off ignition, which would either cut power to your controller and
stop the car, or would be connected to one (or all) of your contactors to
disconnect the traction pack
2. hit the "bug red button" safety switch, which is connected to one (or
all) of your contactors to disconnect the traction pack
3. pull the "manual choke" style lever (usually mounted under the steering
wheel in close reach of the driver), which is connected by cable to a
circuit breaker that will break the traction pack circuit.

It isn't that hard in all honesty, and doesn't require anything fancy. The
only thing that really needs any though is what circuit breaker and
contactors to use.







> Jeff Shanab <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> > But they won't use that. The big red knobs and green start buttons are low
> > current switches controlling contactors that require constant presence of
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] run away [ accelerator pedal ]*



> Jeff Shanab wrote:
> > The big red knobs and green start buttons are low current switches
> 
> Anderson Power Products makes a high power DC-rated "big red button"
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] run away [ accelerator pedal ]*

*We have been talking about this for a lot of posts, There have been a lot
of valid alternatives posted. But, even though some required a piece of
switchgear as large as a battery box and as pricey as a set of lithiums, I
haven't seen any that were more reliable than a simple Anderson two pole
1,000 amp connector with one side connected to the pack and bolted down to
the inner left fender and the "Plug" part connected to the feed to the
controller and motor, and tied to a length of aircraft cable, routed thru
the "Cabin Front Wall" or firewall and to the dash and attached securely to
a handle or knob to PULL as an "Emergency Disconnect." Simple, Effective,and
Economical. Lets "Keep It Simple S- - - - - - -" (KISS Engineering ! ) One
quick JERK and your Coasting.*
*Highest Regards,
Dennis Lee Miles (Director) E.V.T.I. inc.
www.EVTechnicalinstitute.COM
Phone (863) 289 - 0690
EV service mechs need training!
We want them to REALLY UNDERSTAND: EV Systems, Operation and Technology
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++*



> Lee Hart <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> > Jeff Shanab wrote:
> > > The big red knobs and green start buttons are low current switches
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] run away [ accelerator pedal ]*



> Dennis Miles wrote:
> > There have been a lot of valid alternatives... I haven't seen any that were
> > more reliable than a simple Anderson two pole 1,000 amp connector with one side connected to the pack and bolted down to
> > the inner left fender and the "Plug" part connected to the feed to the
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] run away [ accelerator pedal ]*

hey Joe
Why are you angry? why are you obtuse? 

I didn't say that that pictured one would work you idiot! I said..."here is one for a 220/460 volt" duh! I said they make stuff like that...stop being so bleepin anal. I never even mentioned amps rating which I would have if I was gonna search a manufacturers dam database for you and found one for you... I would expect you to do that yourself you creep. Oh wait you didn't mention amps either...



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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] run away [ accelerator pedal ]*



> Tom Watson wrote:
> > I would suspect that this would be an occation to use a capacitor or
> > two to scoop the arc!
> 
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] run away [ accelerator pedal ]*

Calm down Tom. This list is read by an audience with a wide range of
experience. I got the impression from your posts that you were saying
that you found equipment with the actual switches which would work
even though you didn't say that exactly. Joe didn't start name
calling, you did. Just clarify what you are trying to say and don't
get so bent out of shape about it. Facts & references support, name
calling does not and in fact hurts your credibility.




> Tom Watson <[email protected]> wrote:
> > hey Joe
> > Why are you angry? why are you obtuse?
> >
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] run away [ accelerator pedal ]*

OK Lee, you make a valid point.
On My EV battery current seldom exceeds 300Amps, because I suppose we live
in a very level area.
But, in a "Runaway," while I am standing on the brake and those oversize
disks are trying to slow things down, the current would rise.
So, let me upgrade to two Anderson 350A twin connectors, one mounted a foot
away from the other so no arcing will connect them and one uses both
contacts in parallel for Pack Positive and the other one uses both 350 A.
contacts in parallel for the Negative pack connector. then the two plugs,
one uses both contacts paralleled for Pack Positive to Controller/motor and
the other uses both 350Amp contacts in parallel for pack negative to
Controller/motor. Lastly a 2000 lb. test nylon rope (3/16 diam) is used to
pull both open at exactly the same time and is connected to a big handle
inside near the steering column where the driver can reach it and give a
mighty jerk of about 12 to 18 inches. distance to help quench any arcing. it
may melt some copper but it will come apart or something is going to give
because my right hand on a good handle is good to pull over 100 pounds ! and
in a panic over 200 lbs. I know I have done that before.(When I was younger
I used to lift 250 lbs. with just my two index fingers in eye bolts 24
inches apart It may not go back together because of arc deposits however. So
we may have to replace the Anderson connectors with new (Cost $16 each !)
Cheap and I am thinking effective. Here with contacts rated for 700 amps
(350 X 2 = 700) I would trust it for 1400 amps in an emergency...
Regards Dennis Miles
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -


> Dennis Miles <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> > *We have been talking about this for a lot of posts, There have been a lot
> > of valid alternatives posted. But, even though some required a piece of
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] run away [ accelerator pedal ]*

Its not that hard guys ;-) I've mentioned it before. How about the GEC Redspot RS200P as seen here
http://www.hevacomphelp.com/elec/1pdf/GEP/0001.PDF

We just silver soldered the bus bar in place of the fuse its supposed to hold and use it as an emergency disconnect only. It is
right on the tunnel next to my right hand and I could get a real good pull on it and can separate the contacts further than 12
inches ;-) If you get the rear stud mounts (the -P model) then the high voltage cables do not enter the driver compartment. The
connectors are two large spades on each side, a total of 4. Lots of surface area and over 6" of air gap once the block is removed
from its socket.

This has been race tested in a full power Zilla 2K shut down. Just ask Tim Brehm who left 500 foot skid marks at the end of the
track trying to bring White Zombie to a graceful landing after the accelerator pedal got caught on under the carpet (no it was not a
Toyota HEPA ;-)

Here are some photo's of our install:
http://www.thefoat.com/fa/m-photo/photo_id-6826/member_id-cp+ndsLnd2IM3ohQzYqz0w%3D%3D
http://www.thefoat.com/fa/m-photo/photo_id-6803/member_id-cp+ndsLnd2IM3ohQzYqz0w%3D%3D
http://www.thefoat.com/fa/m-photo/photo_id-6815/member_id-cp+ndsLnd2IM3ohQzYqz0w%3D%3D
http://www.thefoat.com/fa/m-photo/photo_id-6894/member_id-cp+ndsLnd2IM3ohQzYqz0w%3D%3D

And photos of White Zombie's disconnect, same as mine but in a lovely shade of white, on John Wayland's site:
http://photos.plasmaboyracing.com/Emergency-Disconnect

This is an item and good part number that you can actually use, so no one flame me for posting impractical part numbers :-O Its
race tested, photo's of proof and as Wildman says it has never killed me, not even once.

enjoy,
Mike


> -----Original Message-----
> From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Dennis Miles
> Sent: Tuesday, March 02, 2010 12:38 AM
> To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] run away [ accelerator pedal ]
> 
> OK Lee, you make a valid point.
> On My EV battery current seldom exceeds 300Amps, because I suppose we live
> in a very level area.
> But, in a "Runaway," while I am standing on the brake and those oversize
> disks are trying to slow things down, the current would rise.
> So, let me upgrade to two Anderson 350A twin connectors, one mounted a foot
> away from the other so no arcing will connect them and one uses both
> contacts in parallel for Pack Positive and the other one uses both 350 A.
> contacts in parallel for the Negative pack connector. then the two plugs,
> one uses both contacts paralleled for Pack Positive to Controller/motor and
> the other uses both 350Amp contacts in parallel for pack negative to
> Controller/motor. Lastly a 2000 lb. test nylon rope (3/16 diam) is used to
> pull both open at exactly the same time and is connected to a big handle
> inside near the steering column where the driver can reach it and give a
> mighty jerk of about 12 to 18 inches. distance to help quench any arcing. it
> may melt some copper but it will come apart or something is going to give
> because my right hand on a good handle is good to pull over 100 pounds ! and
> in a panic over 200 lbs. I know I have done that before.(When I was younger
> I used to lift 250 lbs. with just my two index fingers in eye bolts 24
> inches apart It may not go back together because of arc deposits however. So
> we may have to replace the Anderson connectors with new (Cost $16 each !)
> Cheap and I am thinking effective. Here with contacts rated for 700 amps
> (350 X 2 = 700) I would trust it for 1400 amps in an emergency...
> Regards Dennis Miles
> - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
> - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
>


> Dennis Miles <[email protected]> wrote:
> >
> > > *We have been talking about this for a lot of posts, There have been a lot
> > > of valid alternatives posted. But, even though some required a piece of
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] run away [ accelerator pedal ]*

Lee;


Can you share with us what you would recommend ?



> This works at low currents and/or voltages. The problem is that it is
> *not* likely to work at high DC currents or voltages.

> Anderson connectors are *not* rated for disconnect service. The 350a
is the biggest one. If you try to pull it apart while it's carrying >
1000 amps at 120 volts DC, it's likely to arc and then weld!


> There are lots of ways to reliably break such a circuit. This just
doesn't happen to be one of them.


> -- 
> Lee A. Hart | Ring the bells that still can ring
> 814 8th Ave N | Forget the perfect offering
> Sartell MN 56377	| There is a crack in everything
> leeahart earthlink.net	| That's how the light gets in --
Leonard Cohen



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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] run away [ accelerator pedal ]*

Hi Mike,

This would be perfect - however I can't seem to find it in the states - 
any clue where it might be found?

Cheers,
Peter

Mike Willmon wrote:
> Its not that hard guys ;-) I've mentioned it before. How about the GEC Redspot RS200P as seen here
> http://www.hevacomphelp.com/elec/1pdf/GEP/0001.PDF
>
> We just silver soldered the bus bar in place of the fuse its supposed to hold and use it as an emergency disconnect only. It is
> right on the tunnel next to my right hand and I could get a real good pull on it and can separate the contacts further than 12
> inches ;-) If you get the rear stud mounts (the -P model) then the high voltage cables do not enter the driver compartment. The
> connectors are two large spades on each side, a total of 4. Lots of surface area and over 6" of air gap once the block is removed
> from its socket.
>
> This has been race tested in a full power Zilla 2K shut down. Just ask Tim Brehm who left 500 foot skid marks at the end of the
> track trying to bring White Zombie to a graceful landing after the accelerator pedal got caught on under the carpet (no it was not a
> Toyota HEPA ;-)
>
> Here are some photo's of our install:
> http://www.thefoat.com/fa/m-photo/photo_id-6826/member_id-cp+ndsLnd2IM3ohQzYqz0w%3D%3D
> http://www.thefoat.com/fa/m-photo/photo_id-6803/member_id-cp+ndsLnd2IM3ohQzYqz0w%3D%3D
> http://www.thefoat.com/fa/m-photo/photo_id-6815/member_id-cp+ndsLnd2IM3ohQzYqz0w%3D%3D
> http://www.thefoat.com/fa/m-photo/photo_id-6894/member_id-cp+ndsLnd2IM3ohQzYqz0w%3D%3D
>
> And photos of White Zombie's disconnect, same as mine but in a lovely shade of white, on John Wayland's site:
> http://photos.plasmaboyracing.com/Emergency-Disconnect
>
> This is an item and good part number that you can actually use, so no one flame me for posting impractical part numbers :-O Its
> race tested, photo's of proof and as Wildman says it has never killed me, not even once.
>
> enjoy,
> Mike
>
>
> 
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Dennis Miles
>> Sent: Tuesday, March 02, 2010 12:38 AM
>> To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
>> Subject: Re: [EVDL] run away [ accelerator pedal ]
>>
>> OK Lee, you make a valid point.
>> On My EV battery current seldom exceeds 300Amps, because I suppose we live
>> in a very level area.
>> But, in a "Runaway," while I am standing on the brake and those oversize
>> disks are trying to slow things down, the current would rise.
>> So, let me upgrade to two Anderson 350A twin connectors, one mounted a foot
>> away from the other so no arcing will connect them and one uses both
>> contacts in parallel for Pack Positive and the other one uses both 350 A.
>> contacts in parallel for the Negative pack connector. then the two plugs,
>> one uses both contacts paralleled for Pack Positive to Controller/motor and
>> the other uses both 350Amp contacts in parallel for pack negative to
>> Controller/motor. Lastly a 2000 lb. test nylon rope (3/16 diam) is used to
>> pull both open at exactly the same time and is connected to a big handle
>> inside near the steering column where the driver can reach it and give a
>> mighty jerk of about 12 to 18 inches. distance to help quench any arcing. it
>> may melt some copper but it will come apart or something is going to give
>> because my right hand on a good handle is good to pull over 100 pounds ! and
>> in a panic over 200 lbs. I know I have done that before.(When I was younger
>> I used to lift 250 lbs. with just my two index fingers in eye bolts 24
>> inches apart It may not go back together because of arc deposits however. So
>> we may have to replace the Anderson connectors with new (Cost $16 each !)
>> Cheap and I am thinking effective. Here with contacts rated for 700 amps
>> (350 X 2 = 700) I would trust it for 1400 amps in an emergency...
>> Regards Dennis Miles
>> - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
>> - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
>>


> Dennis Miles <[email protected]> wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >>> *We have been talking about this for a lot of posts, There have been a lot
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] run away [ accelerator pedal ]*

I have wired this and much larger equipment.
Trust me when I say that the red mushroom switch is a low current even
low "control" voltage switch.
really there are two switches in them quiet often. one no and one nc I
have one computer that must see make of the nc (opened when the button
was last pushed) and the make of the no at the button up position within
a 1/2 second or it ignored it and stayed off. Other machines use one for
the 24V flashing light and the other to interrupt power to the on
switch. There is in all cases a separate mechanical disconnect or
requirement of an "in sight disconnect" aka breaker.

Typical scenario
red button is s1
green button is s2
/ is main disconnect or breaker

480V_/_______________________________________

| |__________ _________
480V_/______________________________| C1 | | |
| | |__________| 3 phase|
o || o----- | 4 x no| | motor |
o || o 24V _______| |__________|________| 
o || o----- | |_______|
o || 0----- 110V | 
| |
| |
480V_/____|_________________|


110V ____ K1 No -1 ______ C1 coil _____ C1 Thermals __gnd

24V _____ s1 no _______ s2 _________ k1 coil _________gnd
|
24v _____ K1 No -2 _________|



> Well I know They make such a thing... here is a milling machine using 460volts that should use one!
> http://www.govliquidation.com/auction/view?id=3077589&convertTo=USD
> (You find all kind of things browsing on the government surplus sites!)
>
> What you need to do is search for 460v stop switch, or emergency stop.
> I did this search using google and found this
> http://cgi.ebay.com.my/Shop-Sabre-7214-CNC-Router-2007-460v-Vacuum-Probe/310187418743
> on ebay
> you can see one of the emergency stop switches on the front panel...so they do make them!
> I'd Bet you'll find one in the database of an electronics supplier... you have to share it with us when you find it though!
> T
> 
<snip>

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] run away [ accelerator pedal ]*

You know, I think I have seen one of those before. On an old dekel
panograph. It looked funny, a "pimple on a wart" But that was a pretty
low amp unit.

Now the stand up forklifts at my last job had an Anderson connector just
like my battery pack but mounted vertically and a big red knob on a
lever just unplugged the Anderson jumper. I always wondered what that
would be like if it happened.

Hey the forkenswift did this low budjet way

http://forkenswift.com/electric-car-parts.htm




> > Jeff Shanab wrote:
> >> The big red knobs and green start buttons are low current switches
> >
> > Anderson Power Products makes a high power DC-rated "big red button"
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] run away [ accelerator pedal ]*

The default of a contactor is to break the circuit with mechanical
means. It is sprung normally open. It can be built with the same chance
of welding shut as some home brew disconnect. They weld shut becasue
they open slow under load and are not rated for it. You must maintain a
continuous signal to the contactor to keep it pulled in. Yes they can
weld, but I have had mechanical disconnects and breakers get welded on
also. The trick has always been to have more than one in series.

The contactor allows the engineer to know the rate of break.

The non destructive, fast and easy to reach close by.
The difficult and usually damaged if broken under load upstream and not
necessarily easy to throw.
The emergancy, "all else fails" destructive. somewhere. These we don't
usually have in an EV or even industrial, but military do.
explosive battery cable (friend worked on missile silos, they had
enough batteries to launch and track if necessary and they had these
explosive disconnects)


The ev250-2A is interesting because it is designed for just this
situation. It is a disk that is free to spi inside and it is sealed and
filled with hydrogen.
This is done to squelch the arc and no create a "self healing" contact.
It is one of my favorites
http://relays.tycoelectronics.com/datasheets/ev2502a.pdf

When I first heard that I thought purposely filling a space with
electrical arcs and hydrogen? are they nuts?




> > Tom Watson wrote:
> >> I would suspect that this would be an occation to use a capacitor or
> >> two to scoop the arc!
> >
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] run away [ accelerator pedal ]*



> Dennis Miles wrote:
> > On My EV battery current seldom exceeds 300Amps, because I suppose we live
> > in a very level area. But, in a "Runaway," while I am standing on the brake
> > the current would rise.
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] run away [ accelerator pedal ]*

Mike Willmon wrote:
> Its not that hard guys ;-) I've mentioned it before. How about the GEC Redspot RS200P as seen here
> http://www.hevacomphelp.com/elec/1pdf/GEP/0001.PDF
> 
> We just silver soldered the bus bar in place of the fuse its supposed to hold and use it as an emergency disconnect only. It is
> right on the tunnel next to my right hand and I could get a real good pull on it and can separate the contacts further than 12
> inches ;-) If you get the rear stud mounts (the -P model) then the high voltage cables do not enter the driver compartment. The
> connectors are two large spades on each side, a total of 4. Lots of surface area and over 6" of air gap once the block is removed
> from its socket.
> 
> This has been race tested in a full power Zilla 2K shut down. Just ask Tim Brehm who left 500 foot skid marks at the end of the
> track trying to bring White Zombie to a graceful landing after the accelerator pedal got caught on under the carpet (no it was not a
> Toyota HEPA ;-)

Excellent advice. This is the type of fuseholder I gave to John Wayland 
for the Zombie, exactly for this purpose. And it *did* successfully shut 
down the car at full current!
> 
> Here are some photo's of our install:
> http://www.thefoat.com/fa/m-photo/photo_id-6826/member_id-cp+ndsLnd2IM3ohQzYqz0w%3D%3D
> http://www.thefoat.com/fa/m-photo/photo_id-6803/member_id-cp+ndsLnd2IM3ohQzYqz0w%3D%3D
> http://www.thefoat.com/fa/m-photo/photo_id-6815/member_id-cp+ndsLnd2IM3ohQzYqz0w%3D%3D
> http://www.thefoat.com/fa/m-photo/photo_id-6894/member_id-cp+ndsLnd2IM3ohQzYqz0w%3D%3D
> 
> And photos of White Zombie's disconnect, same as mine but in a lovely shade of white, on John Wayland's site:
> http://photos.plasmaboyracing.com/Emergency-Disconnect
> 
> This is an item and good part number that you can actually use, so no one flame me for posting impractical part numbers :-O Its
> race tested, photo's of proof and as Wildman says it has never killed me, not even once.
> 
> enjoy,
> Mike
> 
> 
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Dennis Miles
>> Sent: Tuesday, March 02, 2010 12:38 AM
>> To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
>> Subject: Re: [EVDL] run away [ accelerator pedal ]
>>
>> OK Lee, you make a valid point.
>> On My EV battery current seldom exceeds 300Amps, because I suppose we live
>> in a very level area.
>> But, in a "Runaway," while I am standing on the brake and those oversize
>> disks are trying to slow things down, the current would rise.
>> So, let me upgrade to two Anderson 350A twin connectors, one mounted a foot
>> away from the other so no arcing will connect them and one uses both
>> contacts in parallel for Pack Positive and the other one uses both 350 A.
>> contacts in parallel for the Negative pack connector. then the two plugs,
>> one uses both contacts paralleled for Pack Positive to Controller/motor and
>> the other uses both 350Amp contacts in parallel for pack negative to
>> Controller/motor. Lastly a 2000 lb. test nylon rope (3/16 diam) is used to
>> pull both open at exactly the same time and is connected to a big handle
>> inside near the steering column where the driver can reach it and give a
>> mighty jerk of about 12 to 18 inches. distance to help quench any arcing. it
>> may melt some copper but it will come apart or something is going to give
>> because my right hand on a good handle is good to pull over 100 pounds ! and
>> in a panic over 200 lbs. I know I have done that before.(When I was younger
>> I used to lift 250 lbs. with just my two index fingers in eye bolts 24
>> inches apart It may not go back together because of arc deposits however. So
>> we may have to replace the Anderson connectors with new (Cost $16 each !)
>> Cheap and I am thinking effective. Here with contacts rated for 700 amps
>> (350 X 2 = 700) I would trust it for 1400 amps in an emergency...
>> Regards Dennis Miles
>> - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
>> - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
>>


> Dennis Miles <[email protected]> wrote:
> >>
> >>> *We have been talking about this for a lot of posts, There have been a lot
> >>> of valid alternatives posted. But, even though some required a piece of
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] run away [ accelerator pedal ]*



> Pestka, Dennis J wrote:
> > Lee; Can you share with us what you would recommend?
> 
> Sure. I have before, but I know the archives are hard to search.
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] run away [ accelerator pedal ]*



> Peter C. Thompson wrote:
> > Hi Mike,
> > This would be perfect - however I can't seem to find it in the states -
> > any clue where it might be found?
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] run away [ accelerator pedal ]*

Everyone!
Sorry I got upset and called Joe a name ... =


Last time I posted anything on this group some guy who thinks he's gods gif=
t to eving comes on and takes exception to it... It makes me feel like noth=
ing I say is welcome here, and that is just wrong!... I am not stupid! I ha=
ve limited experience with EV's - like most of us in here! - (BTW, Who of u=
s here has a doctorate in EV electrical/electronics(besides Wayland of cour=
se and Mr.Zilla) and Yes power and Motor electrical is only part this equat=
ion.) It may take knowledge of Electrical, Electronic, Automotive, Mechanic=
al, Refrigeration, Optics, fiber optics, Solar and who knows what else!

We are here to talk about solving problems and finding ideas for something =
we really love... EV's! Sometimes the solutions offered are gonna be "way =
out there", in fact I like to offer those... it gets people thinking outsid=
e the box! But if everyone is afraid to speak then we are gonna miss some =
really good ideas and this group won't be worth reading. What if all of us=
had to talk to a lawyer or a certified EV engineer before we posted here? =
do we want to see no posts?

What would happen if no one replied to the question on stuck gas pedals!
We wouldn't have: =

Dennis's offer of the Anderson 350A twin connectors, =

Mikes GEC Redspot RS200P offer, =

Jeffs offer of a explosive battery cable and ev250-2A (which brings out th=
e concept of filling the unit with an atmosphere that lowers or perhaps sto=
ps the risk of arcing)(nice post btw), and =

Dennis's explanation of what Commercial disconnects use to increase their a=
bility to accomplish disconnect.
and many more... And that's just this morning

What if, because their knowledge is of Optics, or digital or high frequency=
or maybe audio they didn't speak? This would be damaging to this group in=
my opinion. =


T
------------------

> Calm down Tom. This list is read by
> an audience with a wide range of
> experience. I got the impression from your posts that you
> were saying
> that you found equipment with the actual switches which
> would work
> even though you didn't say that exactly. Joe didn't start
> name
> calling, you did. Just clarify what you are trying to say
> and don't
> get so bent out of shape about it. Facts & references
> support, name
> calling does not and in fact hurts your credibility.
> =

> =

> On Monday, March 1, 2010, Tom Watson <[email protected]>


> > wrote:
> > > hey Joe
> > > Why are you angry? why are you obtuse?
> > >
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] run away [ accelerator pedal ]*

So you're the one that gave that one to John ;-) I don't remember that he
could tell me where he got it other than it was donated. I wound up making
it all the way back through England too. Took a long time to receive. I
also paid quite a bit more than $40. If I could find and stock them for
that price it makes it a no-brainer emergency disconnect of last resort.



Mike 

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf
Of Lee Hart
Sent: Tuesday, March 02, 2010 9:49 AM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] run away [ accelerator pedal ]



> Peter C. Thompson wrote:
> > Hi Mike,
> > This would be perfect - however I can't seem to find it in the states -
> > any clue where it might be found?
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] run away [ accelerator pedal ]*

Lee, I think this IS the fuse holder you gave John. Its what prompted me to
find a source of supply, through England just like you say 
Mike

> And photos of White Zombie's disconnect, same as mine but in a lovely
>shade of white, on John Wayland's site:
http://photos.plasmaboyracing.com/Emergency-Disconnect


-----Original Message-----
Lee Hart wrote ...

Excellent advice. This is the type of fuseholder I gave to John Wayland 
for the Zombie, exactly for this purpose. And it *did* successfully shut 
down the car at full current!



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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] run away [ accelerator pedal ]*



> Tom Watson wrote:
> 
> > We are here to talk about solving problems and finding ideas for
> > something we really love... EV's! Sometimes the solutions offered
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] run away [ accelerator pedal ]*

With all this talk about safety shutdown, it is technically far easier 
to short something than disconnect under load. Craw bar method used
in industry quite a lot because is more robust and reliable.

Chances that a right fuse does not blow are far lower than that a 
contactor will weld or manual disconnect arc over and cause trouble.

If you need to kill power, just use a fuse in series with battery
(better two fuses - in neg. and pos. legs) and large SCR that shorts
+ and - of the battery right after fuses. SCRs handling 3,000A -
5,000A are cheap and it's OK if they "weld" - this is exactly what they 
are suppose to do. Look at ones used in light rail applications.
They are not known to fire when not asked to, but
even if they do - it is better to accidentally loose power and clear
fuse in non-emergency situation than have runaway emergency one.

Closing SCR has no arcs, no moving parts and firing it is trivial. All 
you need is well protected fuse enclosure to contain its flying
sand debris when fuse clears.

How much do you think that poor people would pay for their life 
insurance while on their way to the ditch at 100 mph?
If they'd survived and later install emergency-off hardware, I'm
sure they would not try to save pennies on such critical shutdown 
subsystem. Do it right, people, it is not that difficult.

--
Victor
'91 ACRX - something different
'01 in-AUDI-ble




> Lee Hart wrote:
> > Jeff Shanab wrote:
> >> The big red knobs and green start buttons are low current switches
> >
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] run away [ accelerator pedal ]*

Victor,


With all this talk about safety shutdown, it is technically far easier
> to short something than disconnect under load. Craw bar method used
> in industry quite a lot because is more robust and reliable.
>
> Chances that a right fuse does not blow are far lower than that a
> contactor will weld or manual disconnect arc over and cause trouble.
>

I like the sounds of this.


>
> If you need to kill power, just use a fuse in series with battery
> (better two fuses - in neg. and pos. legs) and large SCR that shorts
> + and - of the battery right after fuses. SCRs handling 3,000A -
> 5,000A are cheap


What sort of places carry these high current SCRs? Any example part
numbers? I could use some additional safety systems while testing things
out. This is one I'd like to try.

-Ryan
-- 
- EV Source <http://www.evsource.com> -
Professional grade electric vehicle parts and resources
E-mail: mailto:[email protected]
Toll-free: 1-877-215-6781
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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] run away [ accelerator pedal ]*

Mike and All,
Also ask Tim if he could still see after he used it!
Although it looks like you can't stick your fingers in the slots after
this has been pulled, I'm still concerned about the traction back wire
coming through a hole next to the driver and/or passenger in a daily
driver, even if it only goes to a surface mount version of this
device. I'm thinking that for you and yours it might be acceptable
because I realize that a drag racing vehicle already has a higher
level of danger, but what about a daily driver in a rollover situation
if this device gets damaged? Smoke, fire, electrocution...
Don't get me wrong, I'm always interested in something cheaper or
simpler than the $200 breaker with a PTO cable that I recommend, so I
will give this some more thought.
Also, nice tattoo on the Wilde Man's FOAT pageand welcome to the club!
I'm overdue for my next inking, and I'm leaning towards another skull
and "Danger High Voltage" for the other arm!
http://www.thefoat.com/fa/m-photos_album/album_id-341/member_id-wkHB1i3aYLQ=
McZPjYQAo5A%3D%3D
Suck Amps,
BB

> Date: Tue, 02 Mar 2010 02:00:43 -0800
> From: Mike Willmon
<snip>
> This has been race tested in a full power Zilla 2K shut down. Just ask=
Tim Brehm who left 500 foot skid marks at the end of the
> track trying to bring White Zombie to a graceful landing after the accele=
rator pedal got caught on under the carpet (no it was not a
> Toyota HEPA ;-)
<snippage>

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] run away [ accelerator pedal ]*

Hi All,
To answer the question of whether Tim could see after wards, the answer was
a resounding YES!
You see, the bar is of a design that was dreamed up by Father Time (F. T.),
and it is located in the motor compartment (on the other side of the
"firewall" from the driver. The first prototype of this bar was built for my
1982 280ZX conversion known as the Silver Bullet, after we had our 500 Amp
Killovac contactor weld in the on position during testing. The bar was used
more than once during the 4 seasons that we actively raced the bullet. The
design does allow for simple resetting, AFTER CLEARING THE PROBLEM. Simply
re-insert the copper bar between the contacts. And no, it is not a wise idea
to place your fingers between the two sides of the holder when voltage is
present.
To clarify the placement of this safety device, it is located between the
positive battery lead coming from the pack, and the battery positive post
on the controller.
This same objective has been accomplished using an Albright contactor (from
evparts.com part # *Item #SW2516* ) by F.T. in his latest project, a Geo
Metro conversion. He has been considering installing a rod through the
dashboard, into the motor compartment that could activate the same sort of
contactor that would be located there.
Another thought for a safer ride is to include an inertia switch in your
vehicle. Just a thought! -Thos
On Wed, Mar 3, 2010 at 1:23 PM, David (Battery Boy) Hawkins <


> [email protected]> wrote:
> 
> > Mike and All,
> > Also ask Tim if he could still see after he used it!
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] run away [ accelerator pedal ]*

David (Battery Boy) Hawkins wrote:
>> Also ask Tim if he could still see after he used it!

There is certainly a blinding flash when you break a high power 
connection! This is why such a device should be in a protective enclosure.

The fuseholder that John Wayland was using is fully enclosed on all 
sides. When you pull it under power, it breaks the circuit *before* the 
cover opens. But, the arc can continue briefly as you pull the cover 
farther and farther away from the base, so some light escapes.

As I recall, the slots in the base are less than 1/4" wide, and the 
actual contacts are recessed well below them. The blades of the copper 
bar in the cover are less than 1/8" thick, and go into these slots to 
make contact. I don't think you could get your finger in there, though a 
quarter would fit.

-- 
Lee A. Hart | Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave N | Forget the perfect offering
Sartell MN 56377	| There is a crack in everything
leeahart earthlink.net	| That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] run away [ accelerator pedal ]*

Yep its just the three of us right now. Anyone else in the club? I've
actually had quite a bit more done since I got that one ;-)

On the GEC fuse block I would only recommend the rear mount stud version so
the traction wires are totally under the car. Emergency response personnel
would prefer the traction wiring run down the center of the car anyway. That
way they don't cut into them in cutting the doors or sides out. But if you
mount it right the rear stud mount does keep the cables out of the driver
compartment. No doubt it flashes. Step 1) Grab handle Step 2) close eyes
step 3) pull fast and far step 4) now stop the car. You might be able to
touch a little bit of metal if you stick a finger down into it with the
block removed, but you would have to spread your fingers apart 6" and touch
the other terminal too to re make a connection. =


-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf
Of David (Battery Boy) Hawkins
Sent: Wednesday, March 03, 2010 1:24 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [EVDL] run away [ accelerator pedal ]

Mike and All,
Also ask Tim if he could still see after he used it!
Although it looks like you can't stick your fingers in the slots after
this has been pulled, I'm still concerned about the traction back wire
coming through a hole next to the driver and/or passenger in a daily
driver, even if it only goes to a surface mount version of this
device. I'm thinking that for you and yours it might be acceptable
because I realize that a drag racing vehicle already has a higher
level of danger, but what about a daily driver in a rollover situation
if this device gets damaged? Smoke, fire, electrocution...
Don't get me wrong, I'm always interested in something cheaper or
simpler than the $200 breaker with a PTO cable that I recommend, so I
will give this some more thought.
Also, nice tattoo on the Wilde Man's FOAT pageand welcome to the club!
I'm overdue for my next inking, and I'm leaning towards another skull
and "Danger High Voltage" for the other arm!
http://www.thefoat.com/fa/m-photos_album/album_id-341/member_id-wkHB1i3aYLQM
cZPjYQAo5A%3D%3D
Suck Amps,
BB

> Date: Tue, 02 Mar 2010 02:00:43 -0800
> From: Mike Willmon
<snip>
> This has been race tested in a full power Zilla 2K shut down. Just ask
Tim Brehm who left 500 foot skid marks at the end of the
> track trying to bring White Zombie to a graceful landing after the
accelerator pedal got caught on under the carpet (no it was not a
> Toyota HEPA ;-)
<snippage>

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] run away [ accelerator pedal ]*

My mistake....I was thinking of the first generation OH S**T bar, not the
black box unit inside W.Z.'s cab. The first generation was mounted using a
pull cable that , as I recall, John did not fully trust. -Thos



> Mike Willmon <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> > Yep its just the three of us right now. Anyone else in the club? I've
> > actually had quite a bit more done since I got that one ;-)
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] run away [ accelerator pedal ]*



> Mike Willmon wrote:
> > compartment. No doubt it flashes. Step 1) Grab handle Step 2) close eyes
> > step 3) pull fast and far step 4) now stop the car. You might be able to
> > touch a little bit of metal if you stick a finger down into it with the
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] run away [ accelerator pedal ]*



> Rick Beebe wrote:
> > Mike Willmon wrote:
> >> compartment. No doubt it flashes. Step 1) Grab handle Step 2) close eyes
> >> step 3) pull fast and far step 4) now stop the car. You might be able to
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] run away [ accelerator pedal ]*

On Wed Thos True wrote:

> He has been considering installing a rod through the
> dashboard, into the motor compartment that could activate the same sort of
> contactor that would be located there.
> Another thought for a safer ride is to include an inertia switch in your
> vehicle.

All right, this is starting to make sense. Here's how I see it
working. I've already planned to mount my big breaker in the engine
compartment right next to the power brakes vacuum actuator. I orient
it so you have to flip the lever forward to shut it off. I take a
fiberglass rod and run it through the firewall and have it stick out
of the dash somewhere convenient. The fiberglass is rigid, is
relatively non-conductive, flexible and won't melt too fast if a fire
breaks out. (Just keep it away from the plasma.) To shut down the
breaker just mash the big button on the end of the rod.

Now here's the special part. Affix a lead weight to the rod somewhere
where it is free to move back and forth. Size the weight so that, in
the case of frontal impact it will flip the breaker like an inertia
switch! Automatic! Just make sure that you aim directly at the tree,
wall, car or whatever you are about to hit.

I'm sure this is already in the archive somewhere.

Dave Cover, thinking too much for the limited resources available



> Thos True <[email protected]> wrote:
> > Hi All,
> > To answer the question of whether Tim could see after wards, the answer w=
> as
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] run away [ accelerator pedal ]*



> dave cover <[email protected]> wrote:
> > On Wed Thos True wrote:
> >
> >> He has been considering installing a rod through the
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] run away [ accelerator pedal ]*



> Evan Tuer wrote:
> > One of my cars already has almost exactly this:
> > http://www.albrightinternational.com/lang/en/products.php?ID=514
> 
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] run away [ accelerator pedal ]*

> One of my cars already has almost exactly this:
> > http://www.albrightinternational.com/lang/en/products.php?ID=514
>
> That's the RIGHT part for the job.
>

... assuming "the job" is a 96V or lower system. That is, if you want to
stay within specs.

-Ryan
-- 
- EV Source <http://www.evsource.com> -
Professional grade electric vehicle parts and resources
E-mail: mailto:[email protected]
Toll-free: 1-877-215-6781
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