# Is this a good setup?



## Ziggythewiz (May 16, 2010)

I thought you wanted to keep the clutch and stuff. The transwarp is designed for direct drive, removing all that.

Be careful with the 'little' things. The costs add up quick. For example, you have a vacuum pump listed, but does your bug come with powered brakes? Also, an inertia switch can be had for far under $63

For batteries, in general you want as large as you need to minimize the number of connections. However, in lead land if you want them to last over 1 year, you can't use 12V batteries, you need some kind of golf cartish battery, so 6V or 8V. Which of those you pick should be largely determined by the AH you want, though for a 144V system I don't think your bug could survive 6V batts. That would typically be nearly 1500 lbs, just for the batteries.

If at all possible, just do lithium even if it means starting with less power and range than you'd like.


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## VOLKSWAGNER420 (Apr 21, 2012)

Awesome, see that what I am talking about about the inertia switch, it is one of the cheaper parts so I wouldn't have know that was high. Also about the motor it said that it is dual spline so I figured that you just coupled the other side, As for the brakes, I honestly didn't notice (Only had it 4 days) but if it doesn't have boosted brakes, it will sooner or later! If that is not the case with the motor what about the 11 inch Kostov? Can I run it with it coupled to my clutch and trans?


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## Ziggythewiz (May 16, 2010)

I think the warp 11 or a K11 would be fine (overkill) for your project.

I was just pointing out that the transwarp is designed to replace your engine and transmission.


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## VOLKSWAGNER420 (Apr 21, 2012)

Ok So since I for sure DO want to keep my trans and clutch and don't want to needlessly convert a motor when others are available. What is the next available option. I would either like the same performance as the warp 11's (overkill) or the next step up, yes up. You see I am going to do this first EV and it is either gona be so freakin' awesome that I am hooked for life building many EV's and converting many more people orrr it is gona be a lame golf cart that takes me some of the places I go, some seasons only, with only some volume on the jams and I will never build another EV and go talk crap about them. Soooo if I have to cough up some extra coin to do it right the first time, then so be it! LITHIUM IT IS! So thanks for helping me to help the planet. I know that peak oil has come and gone and that EV's charged with solar on your garage is the wave of the future....I want to be riding that wave. I have the solar thing covered....Lets build a REAL DEAL EV!


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## Ziggythewiz (May 16, 2010)

You can use the warp 11, just not the transwarp 11


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## VOLKSWAGNER420 (Apr 21, 2012)

I was wondering what the difference was. So the Warp 11 is for coupling and the TransWarp 11 is the one that mounts to the Chevy turbo 400. Thanks for clearing it up! Warp 11 it is!


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## EVfun (Mar 14, 2010)

I see some problems here:

1. Make sure the motor will fit in a Bug. The regular 9 inch motor (WarP 9 or ADC FB1) are to long to fig without cutting the rear apron if you retain the clutch. For a bolt in fit I would suggest an Impulse 9 and adapter. I just picked one company to show you what I'm suggesting, there are a number of good EV parts vendors out there. 

2. No VW Beetle had power brakes. You will not need a vacuum pump setup.

3. VW Beetles (the real ones sold up to 1980 in the USA) don't have a liquid heating system. It would be easier to add a blower and use a ceramic heating system.


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## VOLKSWAGNER420 (Apr 21, 2012)

Thanks for your reply EVFun! I had already heard that you had to trim the apron for the 11 to fit but that the lid covered it. The power breaks were something I was gona do for the led sled but I think that Ziggy and a few others have made me realize just how cheap Lithium is in the long run. and the heat I was gona run a coil of copper tubing and blow a fan across it...hadn't even thought about ceramic! Do you have a good source for that kind of heater?


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## EVfun (Mar 14, 2010)

This is what I used before. Either 1 or 2 depending on your local climate and how warm you want to be. I suspect 1 would be as good as most stock Bugs.

Some people just some cheap ceramic cube heaters at the local hardware store (especially cheap on closeout in the spring) and use the cores out of them.


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## VOLKSWAGNER420 (Apr 21, 2012)

EVFun, Thanks again, that will work great and one ought to do it, even in a vert as I am from the north and this is the south. I was thinking about overdoing the battery heaters and running a vent with a fan off of them. Do Lithium batterys put of fumes when charging and discharging?


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## Ziggythewiz (May 16, 2010)

Not under normal conditions. If lithium is venting you've done something very bad.

How south are you?


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## EVfun (Mar 14, 2010)

Ziggy covered the battery question, but I have one more question.

What kind of performance are you looking for? Your performance will be influenced much more by battery and controller selection than by motor selection. Power (in watts) is volts time amps. 746 watt is 1 horsepower but since motors are less than 100% efficient it will take a few more watts per shaft horsepower. You are proposing a 144 volt 500 amp controller and accounting for battery sag under load perhaps 135 volts at 500 amps. That is 67,500 watts, or about 75 shaft horsepower.


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## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

VOLKSWAGNER420 said:


> .
> Controller: DIY kit made by me, Rated for 144V and 500A designed and sold by Paul and Subrina’s EV stuff at http://www.paulandsabrinasevstuff.com/store/page3.html for $600
> ...
> Pot Box Throttle EV Controller: Sold by ECPC at http://www.lithium-battery-division...hrottle-br-EV-Controller-Component_p_100.html for $160...


I don't know that an Evnetics throttle will work with a P&S controller. I'd recommended using whatever "pot box" their controller was designed to use instead.


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## Guest (Apr 23, 2012)

Tesseract said:


> I don't know that an Evnetics throttle will work with a P&S controller. I'd recommended using whatever "pot box" their controller was designed to use instead.


I tried mine with a curtis clone and it did not like it. The problem is that the pot is not set at zero when closed and the controller wants it to be at zero. The controller has no way to change that function so it won't work. I got it to work by shorting out the leads first and that got the controller fooled so it would start but because it was not set to zero it would run more like an idle. At that point I could run it up and down the street but I always had an idle. I went ahead and did that just to test and I do suspect that the P&S controller is more like that. My Synkromotive controller will handle that issue quite well as I must calibrate what ever pot I have connected. Works perfect with my Synkromotive controller. Works well with the Kelly controller too as the Kelly can be set to above zero threshold. If the P&S controller can be set to above zero then it should work just fine. 

Pete


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## VOLKSWAGNER420 (Apr 21, 2012)

EVfun, the 75 HP you are talking about is still three times what came in it so that will do. I just look at it like this. Have you ever went flying past a slow ass car and thought to yourself "I want one of those"? Orr is it the ones that fly past you that you covet? I want to send a positive message about the performance possibility's of an EV while still having around 80-100 mile range.....Lots of Lithium. I was thinking of going with 54 of the 3.3V 100Ah Lithium battery's. My bug WILL be heavy. Will this do it for me or would I need the 160Ah. Also how far % wise, can you safely drain lithium without killing it off sooner then it should go?
Tesseract, A VERY good point, I will e-mail Paul and ask him about that POT control.
Ziggy, I have also asked him about the "Above Zero" thing on the controller (I think I get it) can you explain that further to me? I will have to just live with it if not as his controller is saving me enough cash to upgrade to Lithium.
Thanks to you ALL for your expertise! Keep it coming! What do you wish you would have done differently on your EV's?


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## Ziggythewiz (May 16, 2010)

Most LiFePo4 lithiums will give 2000 cycles at 80% DOD and 3000 at 70% DOD.

You'll probably need at least 200 AH cells for the range you want. Check with corbin to see what his wh/mile is at 75 on hwy. 

Really a bug is an awesome choice for an easy around town conversion. For a long range hwy commuter you might want to look into more aerodynamic options.

Most controllers have a pedal down safety check to make sure they don't turn on while you accidently have the pedal down, so if the signal is not 0 or sufficiently close to it, they will refuse to turn on. P&S I think is fully programmable, so it shouldn't be an issue, or you can just go with a cheaper 0-5K pot.


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## lowcrawler (Jun 27, 2011)

Luckily, it looks like someone already built exactly what you are looking to do:

http://www.corbinstreehouse.com/blog/category/electric-bug/

He did a GREAT conversion... a model for mine and others.

Personally, I think your 11" WarP is a bit overkill (ie: the money could be better spend elsewhere). I've got a 9" WarP in my 1970 PlugBug and it fits with slight apron trimming (trim hidden with hood closed) and has considerably more power than stock (I've only got a Soliton Jr and at 150v I'm topped out at about 120hp... but that power is available instantly and will push you in your seat nicely). 
An 11 would require quite a lot more (to the point you could see it even with the 'hood' down) trimming and I'm not sure where the benefit would be given your 'power' comes from your controller and your batteries considerably more than from the motor and the 9" isn't the limiting factor in this case.


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## EVfun (Mar 14, 2010)

VOLKSWAGNER420 said:


> EVfun, the 75 HP you are talking about is still three times what came in it so that will do. I just look at it like this. Have you ever went flying past a slow ass car and thought to yourself "I want one of those"? Orr is it the ones that fly past you that you covet? I want to send a positive message about the performance possibility's of an EV while still having around 80-100 mile range.....Lots of Lithium. I was thinking of going with 54 of the 3.3V 100Ah Lithium battery's. My bug WILL be heavy. Will this do it for me or would I need the 160Ah. Also how far % wise, can you safely drain lithium without killing it off sooner then it should go?


You are describing a battery pack that can routinely put about 80-85 horsepower to the ground. The stock duel port 1584cc Bug engine with single barrel 34 PICT carb only makes 48 to 49 actual horsepower (tested repeatedly by both major US VW rags.) Your performance will be fine, though you won't be setting track records. After all, the car you are starting with (and I've driven more than a few) is noted for having the 1/4 mile time and the 0-60 mph time be nearly the same. 

I estimate your range would be about 70 miles with the 100 amp hour pack. You can safely use most of your range. There seems to be little degradation from deep discharges, though reversing a cell instantly destroys it. The ragged upper edge of 100% charged seems to be harder on them. They will start to sag a bit more after they are about 80% discharged. 

You really don't want to put a 54 cell pack to a 144 volt motor controller. Usually 45 to 48 cells would be considered the upper limit. Controllers don't respond well to excessive voltage. Usually they work fine for a few extra volts and with a few more they just blow up. The more high end controllers, like the Soliton and Zilla, try their best to protect themselves from excess voltage by refusing to pull in the main contactor and/or refusing to supply any any power to the motor.


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## lowcrawler (Jun 27, 2011)

EVfun said:


> I estimate your range would be about 70 miles with the 100 amp hour pack.


That seems a little rose-colored, no?

Even with 54 100Ah cells that's still just a 17.2kwh pack. At 300w/mile that's only 57 miles... and that is 100% DoD... not 80% or 70%.

Corbin (linked above) uses 48 200Ah cells in his bug and gives himself an 80 mile range w/ buffer. Here is the post he talks about that after 3000 miles of driving. Granted Corbin is driving up a massive hill at 65mph for a chunk of that drive... but still. Better to under-estimate your range than to over...eh?

If I _needed_ 100 miles I'd go with nothing less than 60 (192v) 200Ah cells. That's about 900lbs of lithium... which is roughly the max you'd want to put in a Bug. (~1700lbs after engine removal, max gvwr of 2600 [I could be mis-remembering] )


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## EVfun (Mar 14, 2010)

Gee, and I sought to avoid overstating range. I can tell you how I got there, I took my buggy 30 mile range and figured he was proposing a back that was 54/38 the cell count (1.42 times the voltage.) I figured that 100 amp hour cells have 10/6 the capacity of 60 amp hour cells (1.66 times the amp hours.) Multiply them together and I get 2.35 times the range, or 70.5 miles. 

I actually demonstrated a 32 mile range (36 miles indicated on the buggy odometer) before I bumped the pack from 32 to 38 cells. Of course the buggy is a lot lighter at about 1200 lb. but it sucks wind worse than a Bug at speed. My freeway range is about 2/3rd of the city range so you are correct -- the safe range would be more like 47 miles on the freeway. 

Come to think of it, I recommend basing pack size and range off of Corbin's Bug. It is closer to the same vehicle.


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## Ziggythewiz (May 16, 2010)

Yeah, he wants to go 75. What's your freeway speed? Corbin's runnin 200 AH cells for a safe 80 mile range, so I would expect that to be the only possible size to use.


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## VOLKSWAGNER420 (Apr 21, 2012)

So help me out with the math on this one. If I can swing the $13,500-ish eek:HOLY CRAP!!!!!) for the 200Ah 3.3V X 54 with a heavy bug (Battery racks, battery's, giant whiteboy, and some jams) using my gears and amp gauge to optimise consrvation of Amps (Instead of just turning the sterio down) roughly what kinD of range would that give me? Also how low can you safley discharge your Lithium pack without undue fatiuge? Thanks again!


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## lowcrawler (Jun 27, 2011)

You'd be able to safely go 92 miles.

You don't want to go further than 80% depth-of-discharge (DoD).... that is to say, you want to leave 20% in the batteries. 30% would be better. you'll notice the number of cell cycles is often told as it relates to depth of discharge... 2000 cycles at 80% DoD... 3000 cycles at 70% DoD ... for instance. A 'shallower' discharge helps the batteries last long (as does a 'shallower' charge). Also, that number of cycles is normally 'until it only holds 80% of it's original capacity'. If you over-build your pack in the first place, 80% of your capacity is still a VERY usable amount.


The math for the above is...

3.2v x 200Ah x 54cells = 34560wh (or 34.5kwh)

The bug uses roughly 300 watts per mile with mostly-freeway driving (slower = more efficient). So... 34560 / 300 = 115 miles.

But that 115 miles takes all your batteries to 'zero'. In fact, you want to leave AT LEAST 20% in the battery... so mulitply that 115 times 80% and get... 92 miles.

Make sense?


As for the OMG-$$$ on the pack, think of it this way:
Let's say you get 2500 'full' cycles (a low estimate because you'll likely end up with lots of shallower cycles too) before you decide to replace your pack. That's 92 x 2500 ... or 230k miles!!! If you drove a 30mpg car that far you would need 7666 gallons of gas. At $4 a gallon (and you KNOW it's going to be higher by the time you've driven 230k miles) you would have paid 30k+ for gas to drive that same distance. ... not to mention oil changes or environmental/political costs.
Now, you've got to factor in the cost of electricity... but that's in the range of 3 cents per mile. Over 230k miles, that works out to roughly 7k. So your total cost of operation for the electrical pack is ~20k whereas your gas costs are 30-35k. The longer you keep your pack, the more that divide gets wider.

When you think of it that way, it's not too bad at all. It's just the gassers kill us with a thousand papercuts and the electric hits us once with a machete.


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## EVfun (Mar 14, 2010)

Ziggythewiz said:


> Yeah, he wants to go 75. What's your freeway speed? Corbin's runnin 200 AH cells for a safe 80 mile range, so I would expect that to be the only possible size to use.


My freeway speed is 60-62 mph. The asphalt is just over my left elbow. At about 70 mph the front fenders start bouncing as the air buffets them and the tall windshield.


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## VOLKSWAGNER420 (Apr 21, 2012)

Lowcrawler, thanks, that makes PERFECT sense! So it would be better to throw a couple extra battery's (for a total of 60) in there to account for passengers, headwinds, winter. plus it will get me more cycles out of the pack. It will be semi aero-dynamic as I am dropping it 4 inches in the front and either going with VW dune-buggy fenders (do they fit the Beetle?) I like the front of EVfun's ride but don't know if I can carve the fronts to look like that. Or a WAY trimmed down version of the original orrr going with no fronts and metal working the ugly cavities left behind. For $250-ish I can move the front wheels forward 6 and down 4 and the stock fenders are in the way but I do not like to look of NO front fenders soooo. Input? Do hills factor in on round trips? (you coast down it on the way back) and to coast in an EV when you are not on the throttle does the motor "freewheel" somehow or do you have to put the trans in neutral? The Warp 11 is rated at 72V and 453A, does it matter if your pack has way more than that or do you take care of that when programming the controller? Thanks!


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## EVfun (Mar 14, 2010)

Anything that exposes the rotating tires more is almost certain to hurt the aerodynamics. Those bat wing fenders on my beach buggy where designed to keep sand out of my face without consideration to what happens at 70 mph. My buggy is strictly street so they are all around impractical (not even legally fenders.) The only edge I've got is that minimal fiberglass shell of a body brings the weight down to a little under 1000 lb. before the batteries are installed. Oh, and that classic look. Shake, rattle, and roll!


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## VOLKSWAGNER420 (Apr 21, 2012)

Good to know.


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## VOLKSWAGNER420 (Apr 21, 2012)

Ziggythewiz said:


> Not under normal conditions. If lithium is venting you've done something very bad.
> 
> How south are you?


Smithfield, N.C.


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