# MG-TD conversion - Possible?



## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

Have you checked the value of the car first?
It may be worth a bit unmolested.

If you want to convert then I would suggest not damaging or changing any original parts that you are keeping, or at least making it possible to return to original later.

That could be done by keeping to using original engine and gearbox mounts and maybe removing and preserving the fuel tank and then making a new one to act a part of the battery storage.

The suspension is very similar to MGB suspension and so you should be able to swap for uprated springs, dampers and brakign parts, again keeping the originals safe.

It would be a good project to do, I hope you are able to go ahead with it.

Have you any photos of the car as it is now?


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## disco99 (May 10, 2010)

First off, thanks for the reply and questions, I'm hoping this is a project that I can really start, work on, and see come to fruition. I've been interested in EVs for a while, and love the concepts and ideas on this forum.
The value of the car is more or less a non-issue, as it came from family and no-one wants to see it go out of the family. We half-heartedly listed it for sale last summer, and no-one really bit, I think because we were less than excited about seeing it go. 
And, because it will never really leave the family, I'm not too concerned about leaving the original bits in place, but rather making the most efficient (and fun!) EV or Hybrid EV possible, at a reasonable price.
However, If we can leave items such as engine mounts, etc., in place, and re-use them, more power to us!
I had thought about the suspension, and am infinitely grateful that we will be able to upgrade it fairly easily. 
I'll post some pics tomorrow, we've got rain here in Utah tonight, and I don't really want to pull the car cover off in the rain.


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## Lucas POD (Feb 3, 2010)

Hmmm MG TD eh?
Had one of those in the garage when I was 15. I took a few joy rides in it when my parents weren't home. 

good things - yes a VERY simple car. No power steering, power brakes, AC (or probably even a heater for that matter) 
Light weight is a good thing too.

However it is a TINY car and so there is no room for batteries. 
Also the suspension isn't going to like having much weight put on it.

The aerodynamics of the vehicle are terrible. 
Driving at sustained speeds above 40mph is going to suck a lot of power.

Lastly - the gearing in those cars is SUPER LOW and the components aren't meant to handle much torque. 

I was at a club function last year where brave owners swapped cars for little tours around Manassas Battlefield. There was a beautiful MG TD there. Supposedly the engine had been uprated so that it was near a stock MGB power levels. 

It ended up being towed home because the axle broke. 
One of the old MG guys said "yeah - not surprising. Those things are like pencils"

All in all - I think that an MGTD is only going to be useful as an EV for VERY short and very leisurely drives at best.

Sorry to be a dream killer.


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## disco99 (May 10, 2010)

Lucas, thanks for the heads up. the only MG's that I had ever driven were MGB's and other newer, racier ones. If all I can get out of it is something that would be fun and cool, I'd be okay with that. I'd just like to get a nice fun and cool ride. Not slap half-cocked components in just because it won't do a 45 mile trip. But if I can figure out how to get it to do that......

As far as components go, I am willing to upgrade, replace, whatever is needed to make it more reliable and stronger. (i.e. replace axles) I like the look of the car, not so much the internals. I may love British cars, but I definitely know they have more than their share of weak spots. 

Since you did mention one thing that I was wondering about, space being a premium for batteries, what is out there that is available that gives you the best batteries in a smaller package? I'll use the search function, but would appreciate any knowledge thrown my way. 

Thanks


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## Lucas POD (Feb 3, 2010)

I'm pretty new to this myself actually. So don't put much faith in what I say about the EV part of cars.

For me the real issue with the MG TD is going to be space. The energy density of lead acid batteries (both weight and volume) is too low. Even if you were to get little tiny lead acids without much in the way of Ah ratings (meaning they don't hold a whole lot of energy) you are still going to have a tough time finding places to put them.

Maybe put a couple above the motor?
Maybe put a couple where the radiator was?
Maybe a couple in that cubby storage space behind the seats?
There's no trunk right? Just a luggage rack propped up over the spare tire (if you are lucky)

So - given that weight and space are going to be killers for you -that means you'd have to go with Lithium. 

The prismatic (rectangular looking) ones from places like Thundersky might work okay for you. They just cost a heck of a lot more.

The ones that are made out of lots of smaller cylindrical cells (A123 and Headway come to mind) are even higher performance, but even higher cost. 

If you keep your car very light and drive it lower speeds and don't expect a long range (as in - only 20 miles on a charge) then you might get away with one of those battery packs that is really designed for motorcycle conversions. 

I don't know. I'm rambling now.

Scott


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Lucas POD said:


> ...So - given that weight and space are going to be killers for you -that means you'd have to go with Lithium...
> 
> The ones that are made out of lots of smaller cylindrical cells (A123 and Headway come to mind) are even higher performance, but even higher cost...


That's where you're going to end up. I am building a race rod (Model T) and probably have less room than you do for batteries. Since I'm going for performance, and want it to be as light as possible, my only real option turned out to be A123s. If you're not looking for race car performance, and you're willing to sacrifice range, Headways may be a good choice for your car.

As for the weak chassis and drivetrain parts - that's what upgrades are for.  Since your car has more sentimental value to you, you have the freedom to replace whatever it takes. I would store the old stuff, just in case, and replace everything that isn't up to the task.

Cool project. I'm looking forward to seeing it happen.


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## Lucas POD (Feb 3, 2010)

toddshotrods said:


> That's where you're going to end up. I am building a race rod (Model T) and probably have less room than you do for batteries.
> 
> <SNIP>
> 
> ...


I think it'd be cool too. And I hate to keep playing the role of the nay-sayer but . . .

While not personally familiar with a Model T - I have worked on and driven my grandfather's model A (2dr sport coupe)

It is MUCH bigger than an MGTD. MUCH. Plus the MG was only meant to carry two people. (and small people would be a good idea too)

Lastly - HotRodding those really old Fords is a lot more common than trying to hotrod an MG T series car. I'm not saying no one has sooped up an MG T series . . . or that it can't be done, I'm just saying its a path much less traveled and so therefore is going to be a bit harder to do.

By all means - do it. 
Please do it. 
It'd be very cool.

But I believe the original question pertained to how hard the conversion was going to be. My answer is: far from trivial. Probably pretty difficult actually.

Furthermore, I believe you two guys are working from different aptitudes.
One claims to be mechanically proficient, the other appears to be a hotrodder with lots of experience modifying and fabricating things.

What might be doable for Todd could be way out of Disco's league.


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## disco99 (May 10, 2010)

Todd - Yeah, I'm looking at those batteries. Based on what I have seen done on this site with them, I am willing to pay a little more for better performance and range, which, in this case, won't be much. But every little bit helps. Looking at your build and ideas, as well as BottomFeeder's Spitfire build, I've gotten some ideas that are going on the drawing board and will be discussed. With the car dismantled, it does make it quite a bit easier to replace, fab, and even remove components. Should be fun 

Scott - You are correct. As I continue to get into this, it will be on the upper end of the difficulty spectrum that I originally envisioned. Luckily, my mediocre skills will be augmented by a friend who has been servicing the local university's fleet of cars for decades and does body work and fabricates chassis for fun. The only part of the TD that I am really worried about keeping is the soul. Two-seater and fun. I have a fairly large selection of junkyards in the areas that have old British sports cars, so hopefully I can cannibalize and adapt parts for a stronger conversion. I'm actually going to be taking some pics and measurements today and tomorrow. That way I can start to get some ideas in terms of battery and engine space and hopefully hear some more from you all on the board. 

Thanks again. 
Alex


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Lucas POD said:


> ...While not personally familiar with a Model T - I have worked on and driven my grandfather's model A (2dr sport coupe)
> 
> It is MUCH bigger than an MGTD. MUCH. Plus the MG was only meant to carry two people. (and small people would be a good idea too)


Models T and A are worlds apart. I have a T-bucket body, which is just that - a little bucket that two little people can fit in with reasonably mild *dis*comfort (I'm 5'4"/125lbs). I do have a 30" bed that could hold batteries, but I don't want the weight back there, so they're going under the floor, between the narrow frame rails. The bed is only 30", so it wouldn't hold that many anyway. By your description, an MGTD might have me beat for available space! I'm essentially building a big go-kart.




Lucas POD said:


> ...Lastly - HotRodding those really old Fords is a lot more common than trying to hotrod an MG T series car. I'm not saying no one has sooped up an MG T series . . . or that it can't be done, I'm just saying its a path much less traveled and so therefore is going to be a bit harder to do...


But possible. The only way he can figure out whether it's good idea *for him *is to weigh the prons and cons, look at the possibilities, and make an informed decision.





Lucas POD said:


> ...What might be doable for Todd could be way out of Disco's league.


Possible, but I'd rather not assume. He could have enough money to buy services I don't have the skills to do.




disco99 said:


> ...Luckily, my mediocre skills will be augmented by a friend who has been servicing the local university's fleet of cars for decades and does body work and fabricates chassis for fun...


Or a friend. 




disco99 said:


> Todd - Yeah, I'm looking at those batteries. Based on what I have seen done on this site with them, I am willing to pay a little more for better performance and range, which, in this case, won't be much. But every little bit helps. Looking at your build and ideas, as well as BottomFeeder's Spitfire build, I've gotten some ideas that are going on the drawing board and will be discussed. With the car dismantled, it does make it quite a bit easier to replace, fab, and even remove components. Should be fun ...


Cool. I can't wait to see it go together!


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

I'm on mobile dial up tonight as my broadband is down.

Given the circumstances I would go with storing all the TD bits and upgrading with minimal changes to the original frame and parts.

The TD and B's have a similar, though not the same, layout so you may be able to get a B axle and modify it to fit. Springs are not really an issue as you can get up rated springs either from the owners club for racing or made up by a springs shop.

You should be able to get telescopic damper upgrades from B's to fit with a little work.

Here is one idea.
Get a B axle and over drive gearbox.
Swap in the axle for strength.
Break the gearbox for the tailshaft and overdrive unit and adapt it to the motor.
Fit the motor in the tunnel.
Store batteries under the bonnet (and eveywhere else).
You could also get B V8 upgraded front suspension and braking components to improve stopping ability.


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## Lucas POD (Feb 3, 2010)

I'm sure upgraded axles in a T series MG is not uncommon.
I know the MGB guys who do a V8 conversion with the rover engine end up looking for an MGC axle - or gearset. It's significantly taller if I remember right.

I'm not sure I'd try that overdrive thing. 
It sounds interesting . . . but even the early A Type Laycock overdrives - which were much more beefy than the later ones - were frequently locked out of operation on first gear because they couldn't handle the torque. The later ones were locked out of all gears but the top gear because they really couldn't take the high torque.

Either get a custom, narrowed axle made up with the gear ratio you like, or try using the MGB one as was suggested. With the B axle, you will want to get a higher voltage battery pack so you can spin the motor at higher RPMs. . .. 

From what I understand, unlike ICE's - spinning these electric motors at sustained high RPM isn't a big deal at all. You might not want to run your MGTD ICE engine at 4k or 5k RPM all day, but that's possible with the DC motors. (assuming you have all the right components)

I could imagine if you got a high voltage lithium battery pack (keep the weight down) and limited motor amps (limits torque) - you could make a nice cruiser and possibly go direct drive. 


Have to think about that one a little bit.

Scott


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## disco99 (May 10, 2010)

Strangely enough, it's still raining here in Utah, so I still haven't gotten pics, sorry. However, I did look over the car today, and what Woody is saying makes a LOT of sense, if I can figure out exactly how to do it. I'm in between work and home, trying to make some family time tonight, so I will look over some more and give updates tomorrow. Thanks all!


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## Lucas POD (Feb 3, 2010)

I really don't think an OD unit is going to be the way to go. The overdrives I'm familiar with have ratios anywhere from 20% on some of the smaller ones to 30 percent overdrive for cars like the big healeys. (there may be a much wider range . . that's all I know about though)

That's not a real wide spread on the ratios. On my Triumph, that's the difference between third and 4th gear. I think an EV would normally use 2nd and 4th . .. or 3rd and 5th if he has a 5 speed. 

It's an awful lot of trouble to put in a two speed gearbox with gears that are spaced a little too close together and also have a gearbox that might not handle electric motor torque.

For the amount of time effort and money involved in that . . . just get a custom made rear axle with the ratios you want and go for a direct drive system.

(I'm talking as if I had experience getting a custom axle made though .. . I don't Maybe HotRod Todd would be a good reference for something like that.


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## Lucas POD (Feb 3, 2010)

toddshotrods said:


> Since I'm going for performance, and want it to be as light as possible, my only real option turned out to be A123s. If you're not looking for race car performance, and you're willing to sacrifice range, Headways may be a good choice for your car.


Sounds like you've done some research comparing Headway to A123. Care to share what you've learned? (basically I don't know much about the performance specs of A123s)

Scott


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Lucas POD said:


> ...HotRod Todd...


HotRod Todd?!?! 



Lucas POD said:


> ...For the amount of time effort and money involved in that . . . just get a custom made rear axle with the ratios you want and go for a direct drive system.
> 
> I'm talking as if I had experience getting a custom axle made though ...


I agree. I eventually came to that conclusion for my own project. I was originally going to use a factory GM 3spd, and replace it with a full race 3spd. Eventually I realized I didn't need the extra gear, and started looking into using a $3K+ Gear Vendors overdrive unit. Then, I realized that if I pick my rear gears right I could do what I want to do with just the differential in the rear end.

There are a lot of places that can build a rear end to fit whatever you want to put it in. I have a LOT of hot rod parts and service suppliers. Before I start sifting through (computer) folders, we should narrow things down - *IF* you're even considering going this route.

The amount of torque you plan to put through it, and the width (from wheel mounting surface-to-surface) of the MG's rear end are the most critical. There could be a pre-existing rear end in a production car that just needs brackets for your suspension welded on. If not the width will still make a big difference in which company you deal with. The Ford 9-inch based rear end I need could be built to fit your application, but would be extreme overkill. The 7.5-inch GM rear end I have now is probably strong enough, with a few mods, to do the job. It's also much lighter. You could probably snag one for $50-100 bucks at a recycling yard, have it narrowed (if it's too wide) for $250 + another $250 for custom axles to fit it. I don't know if I could buy my housing for that. There are also posi differentials, and a host of parts available for this rear end, because late model modified stock cars have to run them. That means tons of parts at a reasonable price. I'm not saying use that rear end, just showing a possibility.

Research is your friend. With enough research you can come up with combinations that take a lot of the hassle out of building something like this. Say for instance you used that 7.5-inch GM rear end, and a Netains TransWarp motor. You could conceivably bolt your rear end in when it arrives, mount the motor, bolt up a driveshaft, and start wiring it up. You _might_ even find a factory GM driveshaft that just needed the slip yoke changed to match the TransWarp's TH400 splined shaft. Nice time to replace the u-jont anyway. If not you can call a driveline specialist and order a driveshaft, then bolt it in when it arrives.

I'm oversimplifiying to make a point of how research helps meet goals. The parts I've been buying are going together very nicely, because I did my homework.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

Opps! My bad. Scrub the OD idea, I keep forgetting that you won't easily get a rear end with a low enough ratio for direct drive.

However, I am sure that an OD unit from something big like an old Jaguar would be abale to handle the torque from a smaller motor to give a two speed.

Just as a point for for general future reference, electric milk float axles have a reduction gear in the diff pinion housing and range from 6:1 down to 12:1 ratios. Ideal for direct drive, as in their original use, if a little heavy.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Woodsmith said:


> ...get a rear end with a low enough ratio for direct drive...


I forgot to mention that. What ratio you need is also a big factor in choosing rear ends. The Ford 9" like I am using is heavier, but also has ratios available up to 6.14:1. I think the highest you can get for the 7.5" GM rear end is a 4.56:1. There are others that have weights in between those two, and some have ratios up to around 6:1.



Woodsmith said:


> ...electric milk float axles have a reduction gear in the diff pinion housing... Ideal for direct drive, as in their original use, if a little heavy.


I took a quick look at the idea of a two-speed rear end, but weight was the problem. The only things I could find that used them were big heavy duty trucks.


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## disco99 (May 10, 2010)

I can't believe how much info you guys have given me already! I really am liking the concept of fitting the motor in the tunnel, going direct drive, and building a rear end to fit my specs, as well as upgrading what else needs it. Especially because that DOES give room for batteries in the front, and I can think of a few other places that they may fit. I'm meeting with my friend on Friday to go over ideas, and as of now, that basic outline has jumped to the top of my list. The rain finally stopped just now, so hopefully I'll have some pics up tonight.


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## Guest (May 14, 2010)

Lucas POD said:


> Hmmm MG TD eh?
> Had one of those in the garage when I was 15. I took a few joy rides in it when my parents weren't home.
> 
> good things - yes a VERY simple car. No power steering, power brakes, AC (or probably even a heater for that matter)
> ...


So let me respond by being a dream weaver. I have a TD. I also have a 1934 PA, THREE MG TCs, one MG TF, two MGA's, and had an MGB but I gave it to my wife for her birthday and she drives it in nice weather and looks great in it.

I think you have a great idea. Actually there is plenty of room in the TD for cells. It has a very long hood up front. It also has quite a bit of area beneath the rear seat, which isn't much good for anything anyway.

It has delightful rack and pinion steering. MB rack and pinion was introduced with the TD.

TD's are as common as fleas. They are probably the least valuable MG you could do and as a family car with no engine, I don't think you're committing any crime at all. Do with it as you will and enjoy.

Further, they are small and light. It wont' take many cells or much of a motor to move quite briskly down the lane. Retain the clutch and transmission. The only thing you'll miss is the oil stains. 

I would do perhaps a little 72 volt system with some larger cells, probably SE 180Ah LiFePo4 cells. And I would probably use a Curtis 1238 controller and the High Performance Golf Cars AC-30 motor. You could get a little regenerative braking this way.

It's a simple car. Body parts, upholstery, carpeting, convertible tops, instrumentation etc are READILY available from Moss Motors online. This is one of the best things about MGs. Replacement parts are just readily available. Click and they show up three days later.

Really there is scads of room under the hood and most of this area is aft of the front wheels so well centered. You also might be able to adapt the gas tank so it looks original but contains a few cells as well.

It sounds like a fun project and a beautiful gift and I would encourage you to pursue it. Don't let the pencil necks posturing in these forums as "experts" dissuade you. Half of them are still driving mom's car when she'll let them.

You go girlfriend.

Jack Rickard


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## Guest (May 14, 2010)

disco99 said:


> I can't believe how much info you guys have given me already! I really am liking the concept of fitting the motor in the tunnel, going direct drive, and building a rear end to fit my specs, as well as upgrading what else needs it. Especially because that DOES give room for batteries in the front, and I can think of a few other places that they may fit. I'm meeting with my friend on Friday to go over ideas, and as of now, that basic outline has jumped to the top of my list. The rain finally stopped just now, so hopefully I'll have some pics up tonight.


Don't do that. Keep both the clutch and transmission. It can be very difficult to predict road feel in gear ratios and direct drive typically limits your upper speed severely. By using the existing gearbox, you have a variety to choose from, though you will probably find third and fourth get most of the use.

It also makes mounting the motor and mating the motor much easier. And it keeps the car looking and feeling more original. 

I've kind of been eyeing my ivory MGA myself. It's a beautiful restoration, but it already has a non original MGB 2000 cc engine in it (no axle snapping at all now that I think of it). And I do actually tire of messing around with those SU carburators all the time.

Jack Rickard


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## Lucas POD (Feb 3, 2010)

jrickard said:


> Don't do that. Keep both the clutch and transmission. It can be very difficult to predict road feel in gear ratios and direct drive typically limits your upper speed severely. By using the existing gearbox, you have a variety to choose from, though you will probably find third and fourth get most of the use.
> 
> It also makes mounting the motor and mating the motor much easier.
> 
> Jack Rickard


 
I agree with keeping the transmission.
It'll make the conversion easier . . . if you find out that you have picked the right recipie that allows you to leave it in 4th ALL the time, then you can go ahead and switch over to direct drive. (as 4th gear is 1:1 ratio)


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## marcars (Nov 29, 2009)

Wow, great idea!

But...

I would't keep the tranny but use a Ford 5-speed, or similar, for the following reasons:
1. You don't want to keep the standard TD clutch mechanism, or even the clutch for that matter, as it is weak and cumbersome.
2. The TD's box won't be able to handle the power I think. First and second gear always show a lot of wear when we do these boxes and breakages are not uncommon.
3. 5 speeds.

The Ford unit makes sense because it is used for conversions on IC cars a lot and kits are available probably through Moss or others. Other makes might/will work just as well, you just have to make the adapting parts yourself.

Another hint is to use MGB V8 lower control arm bushings (BHH1123) to stabilise the front end under braking, which might be extra beneficial with heavy loads like batteries. They also don't come apart as quick as original bushings / less maintenance.

If / when converting to MGB disc brakes, there's no need to go with V8 brakes as the performance difference is negligable.

Oh, and please don't convert your shocks to telescopics. It looks hideous on a T-series. The standard Armstrongs are quite capable of coping with anything you're likely to throw at them, if you want you can even modify them to your needs. I know it's pre-war technology but I know from experience that on a car like a TD the telescopes will not improve your handling or ride, and Armstrongs are just as reliable, or even better. 
They sure look better.

Sorry to just barge in like this but I really had to get this off my chest. Love your project so far, keep going.


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

My tuppence worth on keeping the transmission

I am building a light Lotus 7 type of machine I had intended to use a ford gearbox but I decided not to
Because
The intention was to end up with a 650Kg vehicle including 300Kg of batteries,
The motor I had was a bit of a monster - It seemed to me to be similar to a Warp11 

Assuming the motor could give 145 ftlbs of torque,
my diff was a 4.1:1
Road torque = 4.1 x 145 = 594 ftLbs
My wheels (14 x 185) are about 1 ft radius
so that is 594 lbs force at the tire contact patch

the available traction = rear wheel weight x 80% (cheap tires) = 572 lbs

From this I could spin the tires in top gear - who needs any other gears!

The motor is probably OK to 5000rpm - over 80 mph 
On the roads around here that is enough and 30km/hr over the speed limit

If you go for a Warp 11 or equivalent run your numbers for your car you may find that a gearbox is unnecessary
Also it is a lot easier to get the motor in the transmission tunnel without the length of a gearbox to get in the way


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

My position on this issue is that in a lightweight EV, with properly chosen components, you don't need a transmission. That's all I"m going to say about it because this always turns into stupid debate over whether EVs should or shouldn't have one. Sometimes people on both sides of the issue argue their position relentlessly, regardless of any factual information presented, just because it's what they believe or what worked for them.

The truth is both formats have been proven to work well. It's a matter of circumstances and personal preference.


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## Guest (May 15, 2010)

Duncan said:


> My tuppence worth on keeping the transmission
> 
> I am building a light Lotus 7 type of machine I had intended to use a ford gearbox but I decided not to
> Because
> ...



With enough power, direct drive works. But a Warp11 in a TD is a lot of weight and to my way of thinking eggregious overkill. The car originally came with a nice little 4 speed, and I can see it with a little AC30 or perhaps an AC50 if you just had to have a hot rod. Then you have about 100 lbs in a motor that will be similar to the original XTAG 1250 that was in the car.

As to all of it working and it being a useless debate, I disagree. I have both, and it isn't close. I just bought a 1991 GMC 2500 van. It has a very strong motor that weighs 391 lbs. It also has a 1.85:1 transfer case and a 4.875:1 differential.

It accelerates 0-30 in about 20 seconds and features a top speed of 55 mph. If you want to call that working, then it works. Comparing it to the Warp 9 Porsche Speedster with 4 speed, or the Mini Cooper with the MES-DEA 200-250 and Getrag 6 speed, it is truly comically inept. The Porsche and Mini are delightful cars with sports car performance. The GMC is like a 7000 lb golf cart at the end of a hard day of golf. But yes, it "works."

The Ford transmission is indeed another option. It's about $3000 but gives you a five speed in the TD. I guess I think it's probably overkill unless you envision routinely driving 100+ mph, which would be hair raising in the TD.

Jack Rickard


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## disco99 (May 10, 2010)

I had a pretty busy week, and was honestly afraid that I would have to shelve this project as more and more kept building up, but luckily, I got work hired out and figured out how to still make money! So, I meet with my mechanic/friend/body guy/handyman today and am just going to go over all the concepts that people have mentioned on this thread. Thanks, and I'll let you guys know what our ideas end up being!


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## elanmel (May 3, 2010)

FYI, I came across an interesting MG-TD donor vehicle, if you or others might be interested. Evidently it was damaged significantly many years ago, and was uninsured. The owner cludged together some original parts with some kit parts and made other body components out of plywood. It is rough, but looks like it could come together as a reasonable clone. 

John Nichols has the car. PM me if you want the contact info--I don't want to post his info without his permission.... 

John has a huge number of parts from older british cars, in case you need anything else he probably has it somewhere.

Good luck! Elan


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## EVfun (Mar 14, 2010)

jrickard said:


> With enough power, direct drive works.
> [...]
> As to all of it working and it being a useless debate, I disagree. I have both, and it isn't close. I just bought a 1991 GMC 2500 van. It has a very strong motor that weighs 391 lbs. It also has a 1.85:1 transfer case and a 4.875:1 differential.
> 
> It accelerates 0-30 in about 20 seconds and features a top speed of 55 mph. If you want to call that working, then it works. Comparing it to the Warp 9 Porsche Speedster with 4 speed, or the Mini Cooper with the MES-DEA 200-250 and Getrag 6 speed, it is truly comically inept. The Porsche and Mini are delightful cars with sports car performance. The GMC is like a 7000 lb golf cart at the end of a hard day of golf. But yes, it "works."


But your Porsche and Mini look equally inadequate when compared to the White Zombie.

The point is that direct drive is a viable option. I wouldn't want anyone to think that slow was caused by choosing direct drive. Direct drive requires more motor and more controller than using a transmission. The motor will operate at low rpm at low speeds so you need to feed it lots of amps at low voltage to make power. You have to choose a motor and controller than can handle that. The motor will be heavier, but the there won't be a transmission, clutch or flywheel weight in the vehicle. The controller will have to be able to pass quite a few motor amps to make up for the low motor voltage at low rpm. This will cost more and is likely to require water cooling. 

For these reasons I'm generally inclined to keep the transmission. But if the one you have isn't up to the task that may effect the cost/benefit analysis. I am starting to think that direct drive is easier than using a transmission when the adapter isn't available off the shelf. My old Datsun showed me a custom made adapter isn't much cheaper than 2 of the next inch smaller motor.


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## Guest (May 18, 2010)

[[/QUOTE]But your Porsche and Mini look equally inadequate when compared to the White Zombie.
[/QUOTE]

Not really. I think it is a pretty safe to assume that most readers of these forums are interested in a car to drive on the streets. A specialized car designed to win drag races is a rather special case.

That being said, the performance difference between either the Mini or the Speedster, and the White Zombie is likely not what you think. It is certainly not on the same scale as the difference between either and this GMC 2500 lumber wagon.

In any case, neither the Mini nor Speedster are inadequate, equally or not, in any respect.

[/QUOTE]

The point is that direct drive is a viable option. I wouldn't want anyone to think that slow was caused by choosing direct drive. Direct drive requires more motor and more controller than using a transmission. The motor will operate at low rpm at low speeds so you need to feed it lots of amps at low voltage to make power. You have to choose a motor and controller than can handle that. The motor will be heavier, but the there won't be a transmission, clutch or flywheel weight in the vehicle. The controller will have to be able to pass quite a few motor amps to make up for the low motor voltage at low rpm. This will cost more and is likely to require water cooling. 

For these reasons I'm generally inclined to keep the transmission. But if the one you have isn't up to the task that may effect the cost/benefit analysis. I am starting to think that direct drive is easier than using a transmission when the adapter isn't available off the shelf. My old Datsun showed me a custom made adapter isn't much cheaper than 2 of the next inch smaller motor.[/QUOTE]

Well, perhaps so. I have not seen a direct drive with anything but truly "equally inadequate" performance and at some point that borders on unsafe in traffic.

You have a bit of focus on the takeoff and the cooling. Actually, that's not most of the problem, though a larger motor is required. The main problem with direct drive is rpm. The simple math of tire circumference and RPM kind of tend to catch up with you at about 50-60 mph. The motors generally start to sag in torque about 3200-3500 rpm. The wind resistance starts to rise right when the power is starting to wane. And in many cases the rpm limits of the motor simply runout.

The G-VAN for example is limited to 55 mph. But it's not just limited by the controller. They caution you not to even TOW the vehicle at speeds above that. It causes the motor to turn beyond the rpm limits of the bearings. You can damage it just by towing it with no power applied to it at all.

Direct drive always looks attractive. Few do it that way. And there are actually several reasons. That it can be done doesn't really quite cross over to it's being the correct solution or design decision.

Jack Rickard


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## EVfun (Mar 14, 2010)

jrickard said:


> Well, perhaps so. I have not seen a direct drive with anything but truly "equally inadequate" performance and at some point that borders on unsafe in traffic.


Watch some videos of the White Zombie. Then consider the range of possibilities between your Gvan and the Zombie. It is not an either/or choice.


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## Darxus (May 10, 2010)

disco99 said:


> I really am liking the concept of fitting the motor in the tunnel, going direct drive, and building a rear end to fit my specs....


This sounds great to me. Leaving the extra resistance and weight of a transmission in an electric car bugs me, but I clearly need to research the disadvantages of direct drive more.

One of the things I found useful was going through http://www.evalbum.com/ to find cars that might have similar drag (wind, road, drive line, etc.), and checking their efficiency, to calculate how many watt hours of batteries I want. Thunder Sky lithiums are generally a fixed cost by watt hour. Actually, by amp too, since they're all 3.2v. 

Some do list watt hours per mile, but a bunch don't, but you can easily multiple number of batteries x amp hours x volts / range (miles) to get watt hours per mile. Then multiple that by the number of miles you want to go.

The one I'm currently (I hope pessimistically) basing my math on says 160 wH/Mile. I want to go 100 miles without a charge, so that's 16000 watt hours of batteries. Thunder Sky 90ah * 3.2v = 288 watt hours per battery. 16000 / 288 = 55.6 cells. And I really have no idea of amp / volt performance characteristics, but you can get whatever you want.

I do expect aerodynamics to kill you at highway speeds (wind resistance = speed squared, exponents can get nasty). But I may be biased about aerodynamics.

I'm looking forward to photos and under-hood / gas tank area measurements.


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## Bottomfeeder (Jun 13, 2008)

Lucas POD said:


> I agree with keeping the transmission.
> It'll make the conversion easier . . . if you find out that you have picked the right recipie that allows you to leave it in 4th ALL the time, then you can go ahead and switch over to direct drive. (as 4th gear is 1:1 ratio)


This is exactly what I did. I found that 4th gear was the quietest gear to drive in, and perfectly fine for acceleration. When my transmission finally broke and was stuck in third gear, I knew it was time to remove it rather than repair it. I'm not sure how heavy the TD is compared to my Spitfire, but my WarP 9" and Logisystems 750A controller are sufficient to get me around with 120V from floodies.


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## DavidDymaxion (Dec 1, 2008)

The tranny vs. no tranny thing is analogous to track bicycles (one gear) vs. bikes with 21 gears.

If you are cruising steadily on flat roads (track) and have a powerful motor/controller/batteries (strong bicyclist) then the single gear solution can work great. It's lighter and simpler, more efficient and faster. The brief hard work of starting out is made up by easier cruising once up to speed.

If you have steep hills to climb, do lots of stop-and-go, or have a cheaper/weaker motor or controller or batteries, it could actually be more efficient to keep the gears.

A few further thoughts:


The successful NEDRA direct drive guys use 2, or 4, or 8 motors with a Zilla controller(s). The notable exception is Dennis Berube, but he uses a huge 13 inch GE motor (something like 350 lbs!)
A tranny weighs less than a 2nd DC motor
If you go direct with 2 motors, a parallel/series Zilla would be a good idea


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## elanmel (May 3, 2010)

This is a home-made Kit car MG-TD, which could be an interesting donor for a conversion. The wire wheels are not included--it is on steel wheels now. It is handbuilt on a TR4 frame--not pretty, but all needed parts are available and it is for sale for $500 in Los Angeles. 

Contact [email protected] for more info.


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## Bottomfeeder (Jun 13, 2008)

Looks a lot like the condition of my car when I started. Does it have any rust? If not, it's a great candidate. As long as you have plenty of time. Have you done a restoration before? They're not hard, but you've got to be meticulous.


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## Darxus (May 10, 2010)

http://www.acterra.org/ev/ev_gallery/index.html
MG gas-to-electric conversion.

Don't know if it's similar enough to be useful.


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