# Whats wrong? Motor surges real bad



## TheSGC (Nov 15, 2007)

Did you check your throttle pot box? I know the pot that I use to adjust my automatic transmission shift points gets all screwed up in the cold, and sometimes causes my auto to jump gears when the resistance goes all screwy. I also notice in with my cheap pot box for my Zilla, but I have a torque converter that sucks the surges, and lot of performance fun at the same time.


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## tomofreno (Mar 3, 2009)

> the brakes blew the front drivers side line.


 Could you have interfered with the cable to the pot box or the throttle pedal, causing some binding/sticking?


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## F16bmathis (Jun 6, 2008)

TheSGC said:


> Did you check your throttle pot box? I know the pot that I use to adjust my automatic transmission shift points gets all screwed up in the cold, and sometimes causes my auto to jump gears when the resistance goes all screwy. I also notice in with my cheap pot box for my Zilla, but I have a torque converter that sucks the surges, and lot of performance fun at the same time.


I would have, and will, but the weirdness only happens when spinning the motor quickly or trying to accellerate when driving, (faster than 4-5 mph)so didn't seem like a TP problem. It happens on all ranges of the pot when testing, though it is alot colder than it has been so far this year. Time to warm up the garage, and move a pot to inside with the Zilla.

I was about to sell my gas guzzling Prius thinking my EV was going to be my only needed transport. Might hold on to it till after winter.


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## F16bmathis (Jun 6, 2008)

tomofreno said:


> Could you have interfered with the cable to the pot box or the throttle pedal, causing some binding/sticking?


Cable is fine, works in neutral. Wires appear fine. Odd thing is this happens after a 55 mile drive and a broken brake line, though it is aweful cold today.


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## Tahoe Tim (Feb 20, 2010)

Did you bleed the brakes correctly? It sounds like a dragging brake rotor to me.


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## DavidDymaxion (Dec 1, 2008)

Any chance brake fluid sprayed into the pot box, or onto the brushes of the motor? BTW a wire short can do that. You accelerate hard, so the wired gets pulled and shorts, power goes away, motor moves back, connection reestablished, accelerates hard, breaking the connection... I had a car that did this once with ignition wires. It was very hard to debug because it only happened under high torque -- I eventually figured it out by finding a rubbed wire.


Tahoe Tim said:


> Did you bleed the brakes correctly? It sounds like a dragging brake rotor to me.


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## zaxxon (Jul 11, 2009)

F16bmathis said:


> I would have, and will, but the weirdness only happens when spinning the motor quickly or trying to accellerate when driving, (faster than 4-5 mph)so didn't seem like a TP problem. It happens on all ranges of the pot when testing, though it is alot colder than it has been so far this year. Time to warm up the garage, and move a pot to inside with the Zilla.
> 
> I was about to sell my gas guzzling Prius thinking my EV was going to be my only needed transport. Might hold on to it till after winter.


Sounds like a loose battery or current shunt connection or internal battery connection issue. Have you monitored your voltage when this happens?


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## F16bmathis (Jun 6, 2008)

Tahoe Tim said:


> Did you bleed the brakes correctly? It sounds like a dragging brake rotor to me.


No. The bleeder screw was stuck, so I bled them from the hose as it goes into the caliper.

Normally, I'd say thats crazy, but then again just maybe... guess it could drag when trying to go faster than a few MPH.


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## F16bmathis (Jun 6, 2008)

DavidDymaxion said:


> Any chance brake fluid sprayed into the pot box, or onto the brushes of the motor? BTW a wire short can do that. You accelerate hard, so the wired gets pulled and shorts, power goes away, motor moves back, connection reestablished, accelerates hard, braking the connection... I had a car that did this once with ignition wires. It was very hard to debug because it only happened under high torque -- I eventually figured it out by finding a rubbed wire.


First thing I checked was where did the brake fluid squirt out to. Every drop hit the tire. Motor, controller box, pot and all wires looked fine. Another post suggests dragging brake. Working right now, but I'll get to look at wires and brakes soon.


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## F16bmathis (Jun 6, 2008)

zaxxon said:


> Sounds like a loose battery or current shunt connection or internal battery connection issue. Have you monitored your voltage when this happens?


It was dark and the meter isn't lit, and of course I only thought of that myself at 2AM. But I'll check it and some other stuff today. Gotta remember where the meter is connect across to elliminate those connections in between if it shows OK.

I really would like the hanging brake idea best, otherwise I have issues with wiring...

So why did Chevy put a nipple of metal next to the bleeder screw? To keep anyone from putting vise grips on it and getting that darn bleeder out!


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## madderscience (Jun 28, 2008)

Don't zillas detect / log errors? See if anything like that happened.


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## F16bmathis (Jun 6, 2008)

madderscience said:


> Don't zillas detect / log errors? See if anything like that happened.


Good idea! Gotta break out the manual.


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## F16bmathis (Jun 6, 2008)

I just jacked up the rear end and got it up to 35. It was still running funny, can't tell what really going on. Gotta check it again and watch voltage this time. Can rear drum brakes drag like that? But then it was a front brake line that gave way. UHGG!! I've got problems!!!


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## Jimdear2 (Oct 12, 2008)

F16bmathis said:


> I idled down hill but when I started stepping on the gas, lightly, the motor surged like a newbie trying to learn how to drive a stick. Got home and tested it neutral. Seemed to make funny vibrating sound only when accelerating fast. When just getting the motor to spin, it spun up normally.


I'm voteing that you have something mis-assembled/mis-aligned in the wheel, brake disc, wheel bearing, wheel speed sensor or caliper.

A speed sensor and cog wheel misalignment could be causing your antilocks to act up. A loose or misaligned caliper, disk or wheel can cause some really weird reactions. If it's the antilocks they won't start acting up until you have traveled a specified distance. Look for a fouled cog wheel or a sensor damaged or out of position

I recommend that you take down that whole assembly and recheck it. Autozone I beleive has diagrams of how all that is supposed to go together available. Also the diagrams can be found on some repair sites for a nominal fee.


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## Tahoe Tim (Feb 20, 2010)

When the hose broke, you introduced air into the brake system. You need to bleed all 4 wheels. Whether or not this is your surge problem, it needs to be done asap. 

Take it to a shop if you haven't done a bleed before. Or, google to learn the process...


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## F16bmathis (Jun 6, 2008)

Jimdear2 said:


> I'm voteing that you have something mis-assembled/mis-aligned in the wheel, brake disc, wheel bearing, wheel speed sensor or caliper.
> 
> A speed sensor ... or out of position
> 
> I recommend ...available. Also the diagrams can be found on some repair sites for a nominal fee.


Not anything to do with brakes. I jacked rear tires, ran it, it torqued pumpkin real bad, removed rear drums, ran again, still torqued, seems like the Zilla is putting out power then shutting off, then back on, makes the whole rear end, pumpkin torque like my old Firebird! Checked the Throttle Pot, resistance was steady all the way up.


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## F16bmathis (Jun 6, 2008)

Tahoe Tim said:


> When the hose broke, you introduced air into the brake system. You need to bleed all 4 wheels. Whether or not this is your surge problem, it needs to be done asap.
> 
> Take it to a shop if you haven't done a bleed before. Or, google to learn the process...


Yeah the brakes are mushy, and trust me, I have done brakes before! I'm just working the drive system problem first. Brakes are optional at this point!


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## F16bmathis (Jun 6, 2008)

So front tires on ground, rear in the air with tires and brake drums removed. Even pulled the pumpkin cover off to check fluid level and wear / metal shavings, all look OK. Throttle Pot measured OK through entire movement, and even warmed it up just for kicks. In 5th gear, can go pretty fast before a load develops were the pumpkin starts to torque over, on and off pretty fast. I had figured it was the Zilla giving full power then dropping off and hitting it again with full power (at least what I had held the TP to), but thinking of that, why would it only do it with a load? So not Zilla programming issue? 

I tried connecting Hyperterminal, but of all 4 of my devices including a Palm, configured properly, naturally, none would actually connect, though they said they were. I guess you have to know your connection is really connected? The laptop I'm using right now used to work, but darn if the hyperterminal program went and expired! I am not paying $59.00 for it! And my driver for the USB cable dissappeard! Who knows where the driver is? Not me!

So back to motor giving full commanded juice then not. Going to pull HV connections and check for bad connections. The battery Volts do not show a change when this happens. I've got a better chance of looking at motor amps while driving, but I don't have that connected.

And I thought this would be easy to troubleshoot! At least the ceramic heater kicks butt!


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## GerhardRP (Nov 17, 2009)

F16bmathis said:


> Yeah the brakes are mushy, and trust me, I have done brakes before! I'm just working the drive system problem first. Brakes are optional at this point!


 Is it possible that you have an intermittant brake light switch. I guess that when the hose broke, the brake pedal went to the floor, displacing something. I think Zilla cuts power on brake signal, so what you describe as a surge is actually a loss of power followed by a recovery.
Gerhard


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## F16bmathis (Jun 6, 2008)

GerhardRP said:


> Is it possible that you have an intermittant brake light switch. I guess that when the hose broke, the brake pedal went to the floor, displacing something. I think Zilla cuts power on brake signal, so what you describe as a surge is actually a loss of power followed by a recovery.
> Gerhard


Brake lights work fine, never connected brake signal to Zilla.

Does it help if after my 55 mile ride in 20 degree weather, the motor was warm?

Seems like if I had a bad HV connection, it would pass the low current, but cause these type problems with a high amperage. Now I'm just grabbing for problems. Checking connections every time my kitchen pass allows!


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## F16bmathis (Jun 6, 2008)

Pumpkin back together, gears OK, brake drums back on, not a brake problem, thought I had it as I was going with a loose HV connection and found the disconnect switch was rusty. So I cleaned the terminals and lugs and re-connected it all. Test drove and it still does it.

Next, connecting up amp meter to see if it shows anything.


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## F16bmathis (Jun 6, 2008)

Looks like I'm talking to myself!

Connected the amp meter up and drove it. The amps are jumping up and down after accelerating to just past 200 amps. Voltage is stable. Throttle Pot allready checked good. Connections are all good. Bad Zilla?


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## EVfun (Mar 14, 2010)

Can you plug a laptop or Palm into the hairball and check for errors? If you have anything shoot the numbers here, perhaps someone has seen them. 

After trying that I would shoot an e-mail to "Technical" at Cafe Electric or contacting the EV parts house that sold you the controller. Hopefully you can get things to check to try determine the problem. 

One last thing does come to mind, but I would be surprised if it didn't throw an error code. If a motor develops an internal short all sorts of funny things happen.


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## F16bmathis (Jun 6, 2008)

EVfun said:


> Can you plug a laptop or Palm into the hairball and check for errors? If you have anything shoot the numbers here, perhaps someone has seen them.
> 
> After trying that I would shoot an e-mail to "Technical" at Cafe Electric or contacting the EV parts house that sold you the controller. Hopefully you can get things to check to try determine the problem.
> 
> One last thing does come to mind, but I would be surprised if it didn't throw an error code. If a motor develops an internal short all sorts of funny things happen.


I tried plugging in my laptop, but it won't connect. The USB cable wont load. Funny cause it used to work months ago when I first put the Zilla in. And Otmar recently had it, so I'm sure he connected.

Allready e-mailed Cafe Electric. They worked on it after water damage, which is where I'm heading, though a shorted motor... Would a shorted motor still run? It was warm the other day after a 55 mile drive in 20 degree cold.


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## tomofreno (Mar 3, 2009)

> Looks like I'm talking to myself!


 Don't know what to tell you. I think I would contact Cafe Electric. Sounds like a controller problem.



> It was warm the other day after a 55 mile drive in 20 degree cold.


 I think that is normal. Mine is warm in that ambient temperature too - like 35-40 C.


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

F16bmathis said:


> Allready e-mailed Cafe Electric. They worked on it after water damage, which is where I'm heading, though a shorted motor... Would a shorted motor still run?


Hi F16b,

Sounds to me like they didn't get all the water bugs out of there. And I kinda doubt a "shorted motor" would give you these types of problems. That usually lets the smoke out all at once. But stranger things have happened. Have you eyeballed the motor? Any stuck brushes? Any small mammals in there? Any big sparks when you run it?

My bet is the controller.

major


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## F16bmathis (Jun 6, 2008)

I'm just worried about whether its a shorted motor or a bad hairball. The only way to test that would either put another controller in or another motor.

Most likely its the hairball. I had left the hood slightly open and the Zilla exposed. It rained that night, got the hairball wet. It lasted for months before it finally died. Otmar worked on it and found a bad trace, said he couldn't promise I'd have more problems later. I can't find a hairball for sale anywhere except evcomponents? and they seem to be out of buisiness, Pay-Pal verified, but you can't pay by Pay-Pal.

Looks like time to buy a Netgain. My wife is gonna be pissed!


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## F16bmathis (Jun 6, 2008)

major said:


> Hi F16b,
> 
> Sounds to me like they didn't get all the water bugs out of there. And I kinda doubt a "shorted motor" would give you these types of problems. That usually lets the smoke out all at once. But stranger things have happened. Have you eyeballed the motor? Any stuck brushes? Any small mammals in there? Any big sparks when you run it?
> 
> ...


I'm going with controller. If you read previous post, you'll see that I let the hairball get wet months ago. I think its finally catching up with me. Connected amp guage last night and you can see amps going up to commanded then bouncing up and down as the motor surges. Motor looks good, runs excellent (in nuetral) until a load is applied (very fast in 5th with tires off ground, or driving)

Anyone have a spare hairball?

Can I toss it in an oven and cook it? Might as well try!


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## F16bmathis (Jun 6, 2008)

EVfun said:


> Can you plug a laptop or Palm into the hairball and check for errors? If you have anything shoot the numbers here, perhaps someone has seen them.
> 
> After trying that I would shoot an e-mail to "Technical" at Cafe Electric or contacting the EV parts house that sold you the controller. Hopefully you can get things to check to try determine the problem.
> 
> One last thing does come to mind, but I would be surprised if it didn't throw an error code. If a motor develops an internal short all sorts of funny things happen.


I'm finally able to connect to hyperterminal! I also downloaded a Zillaview program. Has all the data in gauge format! Ran it up, saw throttle position, amps, volts, and controller temp. Funny thing is controller temp went on full, and turned red as I yanked on the throttle! It might be the Controller temp signal shutting it down. 

Also had some error codes, so I reset them, before I wrote them down. They didn't come back.

Otmar has a hairball I'm going to get. Might as well get it just in case!


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## EVfun (Mar 14, 2010)

Hopefully you have found something. Now you can drive and watch what the Zilla thinks is happening.


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## GerhardRP (Nov 17, 2009)

F16bmathis said:


> Also had some error codes, so I reset them, before I wrote them down. They didn't come back.


WTF. how can we help?
Gerhard


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## F16bmathis (Jun 6, 2008)

EVfun said:


> Hopefully you have found something. Now you can drive and watch what the Zilla thinks is happening.


Well I could if my laptop battery would last. I recorded a short video of Zilla_Viewer showing it overheating here...http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3_zwjuiP42w




This is just me goosing it in neutral. Notice, the Zilla temp jumps all the way instantly and jumps back down, same as the way the motor surges.


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## F16bmathis (Jun 6, 2008)

GerhardRP said:


> WTF. how can we help?
> Gerhard


Codes were not an issue, I forget what they were, but I wasn't concerned, but yeah, I should've wrote them down just in case! Either way, they didn't come back while the truck still drives like an ICE needing a tune-up!


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## EVfun (Mar 14, 2010)

That temp info is clearly nonsense. It goes right into the red around 200 amps. I'm guessing that is what is cutting the motor in and out. Either the hairball or controller itself is having a problem taking useable readings. 

You might try re-routing the ethernet cable between the hairball and controller, but I would expect other or multiple goofy readings if it was the issue. Make sure the ferrite bead is on that cable but it shouldn't matter where on the cable. The cable shouldn't pass closely over the controller motor or battery cables. While this stuff is worth checking, the ethernet cable pickiness is rarely an issue and even then it's usually with seriously turned up Z2k controllers.


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## F16bmathis (Jun 6, 2008)

EVfun said:


> That temp info is clearly nonsense. It goes right into the red around 200 amps. I'm guessing that is what is cutting the motor in and out. Either the hairball or controller itself is having a problem taking useable readings.
> 
> You might try re-routing the ethernet cable between the hairball and controller, but I would expect other or multiple goofy readings if it was the issue. Make sure the ferrite bead is on that cable but it shouldn't matter where on the cable. The cable shouldn't pass closely over the controller motor or battery cables. While this stuff is worth checking, the ethernet cable pickiness is rarely an issue and even then it's usually with seriously turned up Z2k controllers.


I've allready reset the ethernet cable, its routed away from any other source of interference, and the ferrite is installed. Now I wonder how the temp signal from the controller is sent to the hairball. Disconnecting the ethernet cable when the Zilla is on, kills the Zilla right away. Oh- right! Thats why I had those error codes! Better not let *GerhardRP* see this!**

Otmar is helping with DAq data download, actually easy once you know, and the Zilla Viewer makes it easy to decifer.

I think I'm going to open the Zilla controller and see if there's anything obvious under that cover.


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## F16bmathis (Jun 6, 2008)

EVfun said:


> That temp info is clearly nonsense. It goes right into the red around 200 amps. I'm guessing that is what is cutting the motor in and out. Either the hairball or controller itself is having a problem taking useable readings.
> 
> You might try re-routing... While this stuff is worth checking, the ethernet cable pickiness is rarely an issue and even then it's usually with seriously turned up Z2k controllers.


Otmar says not to run the controller anymore, the temp signal is the problem, and he wants it in for service. I couldn't resist and opened her up to take a look inside (sorry Otmar) and found a cap's plastic cover had split, though the cap looks OK, and the temp sensor has some kinda black icky stuff  near the bottom lead. It might have shorted, IDK... Threw it back together. Wish I could just replace the sensor and get on with some EV fun!

I've got a friend bringing over a modified Curtis 1231C for use in between. He modified it to 650 amps.


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