# Skooler's RX8 Conversion (Formally "A Good Motor???")



## skooler (Mar 26, 2011)

Hi All,

I have been following these forums for the last year or so with a keen interest in converting a car to electric. The only thing that has really stopped me is lack of money!

To introduce myself I am a 19 year old IT consultant based in the UK. My mechanical skills are OK, I service my own cars etc but I am by no means a mechanic! I have friends that can help me with the trickier stuff if needed. I would say that my electrical skills are up to the required standard but again I can get help / advise if needed.

As mentioned the main thing that has stopped me converting is the cost of doing so! I have a 2000 Vauxhall (Opel Corsa) sat on the drive that I think would be an idea doner vehicle. (picture of a similar car below). Kerb weight of the car is under 850KG. it currently has a horrible rattly 1.0l 3 cylinder engine. There is plenty of room under the bonet (there was a 1.7 Turbo Deisel model that sat in the same engine bay.

I priced up converting this with a Warp 9, Soliton Junior and 45 100AH Thunderskys but the cost came in over £10,000!

Anyway still having a keen interest i have decided to look elsewhere and come accross this motor from a milk float on ebay:

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=200636173188&fromMakeTrack=true&ssPageName=VIP:watchlink:top:en

My requirements are:


Half decent accelleration, i would say to match the standard 0-60MPH but this was 16.5 seconds! Under 10 would be good 
Top speed of 70Mph, any more is a bonus (and illegal over here)
Range initially 40 Miles, I find it hard to look at purchasing an Expensive LiFePo4 pack when DBM etc may be around the corner!
Hold 4-5 Passengers (batteries can go under the bonet, spare wheel well and under the rear passenger seats)
I could probably stretch to £5,000 total budget. 


A few other points. I regularly commute 130 Miles on the motorway to see customers. i'm not expecting this kind of range but it would be nice to upgrade the pack to be capable of this in the future.

I like a good stereo! my current setup draws 1200watts at 12v when on full power. Has anybody got any experience / ideas with audio and EVs? I suppose the ultimate outcome of this is decreased range!

I am assuming that using the existing transmission is the way to go with such a small car. my only concern is if it can take the torqe! I believe it has a Vauxhall/Opel F10 gearbox but cant find any specs for it.

My main question is, would the above motor be suitable?










Cheers

Mike


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## ken will (Dec 19, 2009)

*Re: A Good Motor???*

I have built several electric assist bicycles and trikes and a lawn mower, but the largest motor I have used so far is only 1000watts, so I don't have experience with a car yet, but I have been doing a lot of research, mostly in the 10Kwatt range. So hopefully some of the experts will chime in!

There are several different types of DC motors, some are easier to get a matching controller for. 
If it is a series wound motor and those spec's are accurate and your car is aerodynamic ,_In my opinion _you should be able to do at least 60.
Depending on the batteries and your driving, and the hills, you should be able to go 40 miles.

At 60 volts, cruising speed the motor should take about 200+ amps, and your stereo will take about 100 amps, so it will definitely ruin you mileage.
( 1200 watts? .. Really? .. Have you shattered you eardrums yet? )

Also fewer lighter batteries will = more acceleration, but less distance.

Also I hate to judge people, but I have found that that young guys that listen to loud music tend to stomp on the accelerator from a stop... Don't.. it is the worst thing you can do to your batteries and mileage.

Also some controllers allow you to program the maxim torque, so you transmission should be okay, but of course this will lower your acceleration, but save the transmission. 

So, if you trust the seller, and get a good controller, _I think _you should be okay. Good Luck!


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## skooler (Mar 26, 2011)

*Re: A Good Motor???*



ken will said:


> I have built several electric assist bicycles and trikes and a lawn mower, but the largest motor I have used so far is only 1000watts, so I don't have experience with a car yet, but I have been doing a lot of research, mostly in the 10Kwatt range. So hopefully some of the experts will chime in!
> 
> There are several different types of DC motors, some are easier to get a matching controller for.
> If it is a series wound motor and those spec's are accurate and your car is aerodynamic ,_In my opinion _you should be able to do at least 60.
> ...


Hi Ken, thanks for the reply.

Do you have a thread or anything on evalbum for your conversions?

I have emailed/messaged the seller to get the information of the motor. (there seems to be a 'plate' in the picture)

You say 60 volts, I have seen some threads that have used forklift motors and doubled the motors voltage, could this be possible?

A bit of a stereotype there Ken! I just like a good quality stereo! 1200 watts is what I have in my main car that i use for motorways etc, its just my way of staying awake and not getting bored when i'm in the car for 3 hours! I never really go over a third volume wise. I dont think I would put anything near this into an EV but wanted to see if anyone has any experience with anything similar. I cant believe for one second that all EV drivers sit in silence!

Brilliant to know some controllers can limit the torque, i'm worried that the gearbox might not be up to it as its only designed for the 1.0 litre engine, I think it produces about 80Nm (60ft/lb) torque.

Does anyone have a suggestion of a suitable motor controller to match this motor? I'm assuming it is series wound until I get a response from the seller.

Thanks again for your help.

Mike


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## OMT (May 10, 2010)

*Re: A Good Motor???*

look for a forklift junk yard, or metal scrap yard and see if you can find a forklift motor about 8-10inches dia. and atleast 15inches long. look for a motor with twin brushes, and one that has many bars on the commutator( copper bars). i picked up a few really nice motors for 50-100$ each and all you have to do is clean and advance them.


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## OMT (May 10, 2010)

*Re: A Good Motor???*

if you can learn how to solder i would suggest a paul and sabrina controller kit they sell for around 600$, and produce 500 amps peak, which in a 9inch diam. motor is roughly 80-100flbs


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## ken will (Dec 19, 2009)

*Re: A Good Motor???*



skooler said:


> Hi Ken, thanks for the reply.
> 
> Do you have a thread or anything on evalbum for your conversions?
> 
> ...


I was kidding abut the stereo, when I was young, I would put in an 8-Track and crank up the volume! 
( Beach Boys - Little Deuce Coupe or 409 --- Jan & Dean -  Dead Man's Curve --- Shangri-Las - Leader Of The Pack --- Iron Butterfly - In A Gadda Da Vida)

You can see my bicycles at:
http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showthread.php/some-my-electric-bikes-59929.html


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## skooler (Mar 26, 2011)

*Re: A Good Motor???*

Thanks for all the replies,

I am still waiting for a resonse from the seller of more details on the milk float motor. I will post once a get a reply.

OMT,
I should have mentioned that have already investigated the forklift motor route. I have a friend that works in a forklift servicing / restoration workshop. He says that for a 7" pump motor that doesn't run they can get ~£150 just in scrap value! if thats the case then picking up a decent motor could be quite expensive due to its value as scrap!

Do you not think that the milkfloat motor (below) would be suitable? 11KW should be enough for a car of this size?

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/ws/eBayIS...akeTrack=true&ssPageName=VIP:watchlink:top:en

I can solder in small amounts (I regularly solder onto laptop motherboards etc) but have never taken on anything like a controller! I will definately investigate the DIY / kit controller route but I dont think I could trust myself that much!

Ken,
Those bikes are fantastic! I bet they are great fun! I knew you were kidding, a great music collection there none the less!

*Batteries*
I have been thinking a bit more about batteries. My budget wont stretch to lithium, I'd rather wait a year or two for a breakthrough and prices to drop. So lead acid it is for now (unless anyone can convince me otherwise)

I was thinking of deep cycle leisure batteries. I have found a UK company offering 'alphaline' DC31 batteries, 12V, 125AH and 550 cycles. Has anybody heard of 'alphaline'? with 550 cycles (at 70% dod) I would expect at least 2 years service.

I was thinking either 6 or 8 of these for 72V or 96V at 125AH

It would cost £85.46 per battery (delivered) with the below offer (will try to get them down a bit further!) that seems quite reasonable?

battery specs below
http://performanceleisure.co.uk/product/DC31/

deal below
http://performanceleisure.co.uk/packages/50/

Thoughts?

Thanks again,

Mike


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

*Re: A Good Motor???*

Hi Mike,
Welcome to the forum.
There is a Fork lift breaker near Chesterfield that has racks of motors but last tiem I was there it was £300 a motor.

I've been watching the same milkfloat motor on Ebay. Have you seen this one?
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=230654397077&ssPageName=STRK:MESINDXX:IT
It is a bit big but cheaper. I am tempted by it myself but already have too many projects on the go.

For your little car a 9" diameter motor will be fine and the Open Revolt Controller kit should be within your soldering ability.

For good sound quality in a car a powerful quality amp is needed but with electric drive you may find that the reduction in noise means that you will be able to hear more of the music and have less of the background noise.


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## skooler (Mar 26, 2011)

*Re: A Good Motor???*

Hi Woodsmith,

Chesterfield is probably a little bit far for me to go (400 mile round trip) but £300 a motor is still far cheaper than a warp/kostov 9!

No I havent seen that motor, its a good price but probably a little overkill for my car, I think it would destroy the transmission! Its still quite far away (300 mile round trip) so I think i'll have to rule it out (thanks for the reccomendation though!)

With the motor controller, I think I would feel far more comfortable with an off the shelf controller, not ruling it else just yet though. Could anyone recommend a suitable controller?

Thanks for the heads up, it hadent even crossed my mind that there would be less road noise! I will forget the audio untill the car is driving on electric and I am happy with everything.

Cheers,

Mike


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## skooler (Mar 26, 2011)

*Re: A Good Motor???*

Just had a reply from the seller of the ebay milk float motor

(http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/ws/eBayIS...akeTrack=true&ssPageName=VIP:watchlink:top:en)

"Hi
The motor has 2 pairs of wire coming off it, one pair for the cage and one pair for the stator. There is a plate on it but due to it being aluminium and being on the under side of the milk float it is hard to read due to corrosion. I intended to mate this to a ford type 9 gearbox keeping the clutch and running it on or off on the accelerator.
Hope this helps"

Does this make sense to everyone?

He says there are two pairs of wires, one for the cage and one for the stator. Could anybody explain this? Apologies but I would assume there would just be 2 wires?

Is it right to assume this is a series wound motor?

Thanks again for all your help.

All being well i'd like to pick it up on saturday (providing its suitable!)


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## ken will (Dec 19, 2009)

*Re: A Good Motor???*



skooler said:


> Just had a reply from the seller of the ebay milk float motor
> 
> "Hi
> The motor has 2 pairs of wire coming off it, one pair for the cage and one pair for the stator.
> ...


Like I said before I am new at this but, I thought the part that rotates is called the Armature and the connections are labeled A1,A2

Series wound: the stationary winding is called the Stator and it's connections are labeled S1,S2

Sepex: the stationary winding is called the Field and it's connections are labeled F1,F2

So A Series motor would have 4 connections labeled A1,A2,S1,S2
and A Sepex motor would have 4 connections labeled A1,A2,F1,F2

Are you sure he knows what he is talking about?
He mentions cage and stator. I though cage and stator were both names for the outside windings.

We are both speaking "English" but I call a car's bonnet a hood and it's boot, a trunk.....


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

*Re: A Good Motor???*

The seller may not know motors very well and so has misnamed parts.

Two plus two wires seems about right but doesn't say what sort it is.
I would chance it being a series wound motor as milkfloats are old and all the ones I've seen are series wound, including the 12" one I bought and the 9" one I rejected.
Both of those also had 25sqmm cable coming out of the motor frame rather then bolt studs.

Having said that it is your money and £225 is a big bit of budget.
Could you go and see it before it ends?

You would be looking for the wires to be the same size, both about the thickness of a small finger, for it to be likely to be series. If you can get a look inside then you might see the field coils, series ones are usually rolled from copper flat bar rather then fine round strands of wire.
You may be lucky and the wires are marked S1 S2, as Ken says. Mine was marked A,B,C,D.

Also, if you do get a look you should check the size of the brushes and commutator bars.
There should be plenty of comm bars (around 40-60 bars I guess) in the comm and the brushes should be big and there should be four of them (or eight in pairs). The comm bars should be about 1 1/2" - 2" long.

If I was looking for a motor I would go and have a look and take cash with me, if it doesn't sell then negotiate the price down.

My main concern would be the drive end cap. It looks to be slightly domed shaped and that could make it a little more difficult to mount to an adaptor plate. It would need to be machined to give a flat area for location but that isn't a deal breaker if you are having machine work done anyway.

Good luck with it. I won't bid against you.


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## skooler (Mar 26, 2011)

*Re: A Good Motor???*

Some really useful advice here!

Im guessing he doesnt know a lot as he also said he had spun it up while strapped to a pallet using a forklift battery! without any load???!!!

thanks for letting me know what to look for. If it doesent sell i'll contact the seller and view it over the weekend.

I did notice the curved drive end cap. Would this be a lot of work to have it machined? Would I be better off looking for another motor? 

Any ideas how much an adapter plate and coupler would cost? I was thinking £300 at the most?

Thanks again!

Mike


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

*Re: A Good Motor???*

You could contact him to arrange a viewing *if* it doesn't sell.

The DE cap could be put onto a mill or a lathe and a rim turned onto it to locate it in a large diameter hole on the adaptor plate. That needn't be a big bit of machining but it needs to be accurate and in a way that securing bolts can be used to mount it.
The DE isn't currently used to do any more then to centre the bearing against radial loads of the chain drive and so the bolts on it could be quite small. Also it may be aluminium and/or very lightly made and unable to support the weight of the motor.
That needs checking too.

That doesn't rule it out but it can mean a more fiddly construction with a motor cradle to support the weight while the DE locates the position relative to the gearbox.

There are plenty of motors out there, somewhere, so bear all this in mind when you view.

Chesterfield may be worth a visit. I have been there from Manchester and also picked up motors from London and Surrey.

Another thing is to look for dead electric forklifts from businesses nearer you. Have a look on Ebay for some and also ask at industrial estates that have fork lifts if they know of a dead one or where they get theirs serviced or repaired.
I have a fork lift motor rebuilder only a couple of miles from me in the middle of Trafford Park. Only found it by accident.

An adaptor plate will depend on the motor you choose.
A simple one will be a bit of aluminium plate with a hole in the middle. Then it can be two plates to ease location and add thickness.
Then it could be two plates and a bit of pipe to add more thickness. The price will depend on the materials and how much machining you need to pay for and what you can do yourself.

Don't forget to measure the magic number when you pull the engine out. That is the distance from the friction face of the flywheel to the mounting face of the engine against the bell housing. You will need this whether you keep the clutch or not.


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## dtbaker (Jan 5, 2008)

*Re: A Good Motor???*

to run at high voltages, to get performance you want, you will need a KNOWN good motor like Warp9 and while you might get by with a Curtis 1231, you probably will find it worthwhile to go for a 'modern' controller like Soliton Jr, especially if you intend highway performance.

so..... save up you money, create a little spreadsheet showing savings, and take a loan from family or bank to do it right rather than re-do piecemeal.


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## skooler (Mar 26, 2011)

*Re: A Good Motor???*

Thanks again for all the input.

dtbaker, In an ideal world I would buy a warp 9 however this is out of my budget for now. If this project is successful I will definately get known parts next time round! as for the controller, I still quite fancy a soliton Jr to help futureproof myself. again, cost will be the main factor in this decision.


I am hopefully going to view the motor on the weekend. The seller says that all wires are the same thickness and it has a 10" diameter and 16" length. It sounds ideal apart from the dome shape!

This got me thinking... Does the motor have to be directly coupled to the gearbox/transmission? Could a chain or belt not link them together? This would allow for the gearing to be changed(a larger/smaller sprocket could be put on either end) and also provide more flexibility on where the motor is mounted.

The only drawbacks I can see are that it would be noisier and that it is another part to break.

Another option I have thought about is using a shortened driveshaft with CV joints either end to couple the two.


Thoughts?

thanks again,

Mike


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

*Re: A Good Motor???*

Having the motor separate from the gearbox is fine but makes the build more fiddly and can take up more room.

If you use a short drive shaft with CV joints then you will need to factor in maybe 12" of extra width in the front of the car and you may also find that the front end of the primary input shaft needs a pilot bearing to support the outer end.

Using a chain drive is fine but it does put the weight very high up over the gearbox and you may then have clearence problems. Also the alignment of the chain drive needs to be good to prolong chain life and reduce noise. You will also have the weight of a very strong chain guard to protect things from a snapped chain. I know of a Fiesta conversion that has two Agni motors over the gearbox and toothed belt drive. That worked well but needed a car jack to apply enough tension to the belt to reduce belt slip.

On top of all this, it also reduces the space available for batteries in the front.

It all adds up to a lot of extra precision engineering to use something that may not be the best you can get for your money.

The other option, if the DE is unsuitable, is to make your own DE cap. Have a look at my tractor thread to see how I adapted a golf cart motor that had no DE and also my Trike thread to see how I did the same with a 4 ton, 11" forklift motor.

I would go with simple where cost allows. Direct coupling of the motor to the gearbox on the DE cap. The motor directly replaces the old engine and can then use the same mounting points. There are less components, less engineering, less losses in efficiency, less loss of usable battery space.


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## skooler (Mar 26, 2011)

*Re: A Good Motor???*

Thanks woodsmith,

I will take your advice on this one and mount it directly to the transmission!

As for the adapter, could I use a taperlock or something similar?

I was looking at these
http://www.fptgroup.com/fenner.asp?title=Jaw-Couplings&pageid=2727

Or would I be better off taking it straight to a machinist?

This drive end cap could turn out to be a deal breaker 

I love the plywood approach on the tractor! do you think I could do the same with say 1/4" or 1/2" sheet aluminium? 

Sorry for all the questions! I just want to get off to a good start!

I am getting more and more tempted to have a drive up to Chesterfield!

Cheers,

Mike


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

*Re: A Good Motor???*

Taper locks are the usual way to go if you can and have a plain shaft with a keyway.

There are many builds here showing how others have made their couplers, with and without the flywheel and clutch. You will need the centre of the clutch for the gearbox side splines though. If the motor you get has a splined shaft then you could try a taper lock, some think that should be ok if it is a good fit. I have found that some splines are not a standard shaft size and so the taper lock doesn't fit well.
If you had the gear or sprocket that has the internal splines to fit then that could be used as part of the coupler.
On my Trike I turned the gear teeth off the gear pinion and used the outide of that for a taper lock whilethe inside is splined to the motor shaft.

The jaw coupling you linked to may not work. The general experience seems to say that they rubber part isn't up to the job with the intermittant high loads from driving a car. They are fine for pumps and machenery though.
You are better off with a proper coupler that is fixed to the motor shaft and slides on the gearbox splines. Any cushioning can come from the springs in the clutch plate that you use.

The plywood DE cap on the tractor motor was a temporary one to test the motor worked. I did the same for the 11" trike motor. Then I turned one on the lathe to fit it. I have made a mistake with that one though as the bearing isn't tight in the DE cap and slowly vibrates down the shaft. I fitted a spacer on the armature to stop it moving.

The trike motor was too big for my lathe so I took it into work to turn on the college machines. Then I used a hand held wood router to finish it off.

The aluminium plate I used was found as off cuts on Ebay. Search for aluminium plate and the thicknesses you can use and see what comes up. Also if you have a friendly local scrap metal yard you may be able to buy scrap peices from them for a lot less.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

*Re: A Good Motor???*

Have a look at this thread for adaptor and coupler making:
http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showthread.php?t=38895&highlight=adaptor+plate

This is also worth a read. Jack uses a jaw coupling and it fails so he changed to a rigid one.
http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showthread.php?t=35098&highlight=coupler

This is what goes wrong with a bad coupler and adaptor on M38mike's Jeep.
http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showthread.php?t=25633&highlight=m38mike


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## skooler (Mar 26, 2011)

*Re: A Good Motor???*

Thanks for the input again Woody. Really helpful!

The seller has accepted £160 for the milk float motor so I am going to have a look and bring it back on Saturday if it's any good. 

I will look at all the points you mentioned in your previous post so thanks for that!

I am thinking of using the double sprocket already on the motor and the centre of the clutch plate (as you suggested) with some kind of spacer between as a coupler. I have a friend who can get it all lined up correctly.

My only concern now is that if I replace the drive end cap how do I then recreate the bearings to hold the shaft center? Could I just cut down the existing end cap and mount it to the new one? could this new end cap then become part of the adapter plate? (similar to the jetta thread)

Thanks for the links. I will trust your reccomendation and have a propper adapter made!

thanks again


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

*Re: A Good Motor???*

This is also a good thread to look at.
http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showthread.php?t=38674


Depending on what you find when the DE cap come off you may be able to replace it with an aluminium plate turned to fit the motor barrel and to take the bearing in the centre.

This is the one I turned for the Tractor.

















The one I made for the Trike.
















The smaller part clamps the bearing in place.

Holes rounded to assist airflow.









Video of the fitted part, engine turned and with the bearing in place.



Yours will depend on how deep the DE cap is from the barrel to the bearing and also how big the bolts are that hold it on.
You may need to drill out for bigger bolts and maybe a few more of them to make the DE cap mounting strong enough to take the weight of the motor.

The cap can be part of the adaptor plate or it can be a part of the motor that then bolts to the adaptor plate. That all depends on the clearence you have and how you may have to achieve the 'magic number' distance.
You may even make the cap a larger diameter then the motor to provide a bolting flange so you can bolt it on from the outside of the adaptor plate.

With the coupler, don't forget that you may need a pilot bearing in the centre to support the gearbox primary shaft. If there was one in the engine crankshaft then you will need one in the adaptor, even if you are going clutchless. It will support the shaft against the clearence slop in the splines leading to vibration.

If the motor shaft is a plain shaft with a key and the sprocket is on a taper lock then that is the best place to start. It means you can get a taper lock that suits your need rather then having to adapt the sprocket, unless the sprocket itself is suitable anyway.


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## skooler (Mar 26, 2011)

*Re: A Good Motor???*

Woody,

Excellent advice yet again!

Thanks for your time, it really is invaluable at this stage.

I will post again once I have been to see the motor and hopefully purchased it.

I will be sure to take lots of pictures as I know everyone loves pictures!

Thanks again,

Mike


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## skooler (Mar 26, 2011)

*Re: A Good Motor???*

Right then, a little update...

Today I got up early, picked up a friend, and took an hour long drive to see the motor.

A very nice chap that was selling it, very friendly and genuine. He has a mk2 ford fiesta sat on his drive but never got round to putting it in, he is using a motorbike engine instead.

I was very impressed by the motor. The bearings all seem fine and almost everything else on woody's checklist matched! initial concerns about a rounded/curved trive end cap were incorrect, it is completely flat! an optical illusion perhaps? My only concern now is that the DE cap is only about 5mm thick, plenty of space for more bolts though! Anyway, connected a 12volt battery booster to it and it spun up as expected.

So I Parted with £160, then went to lift it... I was completely shocked at the weight! I could just lift it but not a chance in getting it in the boot (trunk) of my car by myself!

I have got a few pictures of the motor and a couple more questions below, sorry about the poor quality.









The motor stands just over 16" tall and 9.5" diameter.









I was trying to get a closeup on the DE cap and the double sprocket. The DE cap is around 5mm thick (you can just about see the join in the pic).

It also shows the thickness of the sprocket and also 2 threaded holes, I think this will be used as part of my coupler, it seems ideal.









This shows the information plate of the motor, as you can see it has seen better days! I think the company name along the top is "Electro Dynamic Construction Co" but not sure what anything else means!. Could anybody shred any light?



















these photos show the cables leaving the motor and a length of timber they attach to.









I tried to get a picture of the brush but struggled with the angle!, its about 1 1/2" long.

We then began stripping down the motor to give it a good clean - there is 1/2" - 1" of crud inside the motor, feels just like compost!









This is one of 4 bolts that holdes the DE cap on (I think its an M8/M10) its just over 1" long, i'm not sure if it will be adequate...









After spending about 30 mins trying to get the nut that holds the sprocket on off, and feeling more and more tempted to hit it with a hammer! We decided to drive the motor 5 miles up the road to a friends workshop and force it off with the air gun. Within minutes of pulling up the handbrake it was offit was off!









I was then expecting the sprocket to pull off, how wrong I was! I can now see the use for the two threads in the srocket, a bar is placed over the shaft with 2 holes spaced to line up with the sprocket, bolts are then tightened through these holes to pull it out. Well we were feeling lazy so we got the hub puller out!

After this I took it home and started taking it apart.

I am now stumped! how should I strip down this motor down? I have managed to unbolt both end caps, the Drive end cap and bearing comes away completely. The other has the shaft attached however I cant pull the casing off as there is a forced air cooling which catches a lip on the inside of the casing. There is a circlip holding this on which I have removed however it still wont budge.

So much so that while I had my back turned, my friend (who is more brawn than brains) tried to prise this part off with a crowbar.. and chipped the forced air intake, so now a 3 inch by one inch chunk has come out.

It seems to be plain cast, how would be best to re-attach this? araldite? I would assume welding it would put the motor off balance and risk damaging other components.


I will trawel through the forums to see if I can find anything else. 

Meanwhile, any help is greatly appreciated 

Thanks again everyone for helping me on my first step to building an EV!

Mike

PS - Would it be possible to remove the 10 image limit? I'd like to post lots as the build progresses as it was one of the things that helped me out in the research phase! Fully understand if not


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## skooler (Mar 26, 2011)

*Re: A Good Motor???*

Right, time for a quick update...

I have managed to find a machinist who is willing to create the coupler in return for fixing his PC, Bargain!

I'm going to leave this with him and start looking at other aspects of the build, mainly the motor, batteries and controller.

My main concern right now is what to do with the damaged air intake on the motor.

It still spins fine but seems a little unbalanced/shakey at low RPM.

The part itself appears to be cast, would it be ok to weld this back on or would this risk damaging the motor?

Could I just leave the broken part off!?

Below are some images of the damage.




























These pictures also show some of the 'deposits' on the inside of the motor.

Thanks again for the help


----------



## Salty9 (Jul 13, 2009)

*Re: A Good Motor???*

If the broken piece was part of the rotating mass it would create a severe imbalance without it.


----------



## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

*Re: A Good Motor???*

Damn! Damn! Damn! I should have bid for that myself!

It is a nice looking motor. Not surprised it weighs a bit. My 9" weighs 43kg and is shorter, 11" is 108kg and 12" is 114kg for comparison.

The friend who broke it had better be a good friend willing to make up for the damage with a lot of controlled and authorised blood, sweat and effort over the coming build.

The DE cap bolts look like M8 to me unless you have really big hands! M10 is 10mm diameter across the threads and have a 17mm AF on the hex head. M8 is 8mm diameter and 13mm AF on the hex head.

The armature may not come out as the bearing on the other end could be a very tight fit.
On my 11" it was the same so I had to put a big puller on the CE to push the armature out of the bearing, and the CE cap at the same time.

Check for any circlips or spring clips on the shaft end before doing that though, you want to be sure there is nothing else trapping the shaft in the bearing. This is assuming that the end of the shaft is accessible through the CE cap.

Don't forget too pull the brushes out before pulling the armature out.

The fan is broken, I doubt you will be able to glue or weld it successfully.
A motor or balancing shop may be able to add weights to rebalance it but you could remove it completely and use an extenal fan to force air through the motor.

I may come back to have a nother look at the images later. Very run down now and need a rest.


----------



## OMT (May 10, 2010)

*Re: A Good Motor???*

pretty nice motor it looks alot like my 9" motor. i would just pull the whole fan off and construct a simple intake with 12v powered cooling fan like mentioned, this would also somewhat weather-proof your motor and keep it cooler at the same time.

have you decided on a controller yet? i never soldered before in my life and i thought i would screw up the diy controller kit, but it was acctually surprizingly easy. and i am very happy with the outcome. my 1999 hyundai accent hatch( very similar to your cars size) and a 9X16" motor gives it very acceptable acceleration, and i have had the car up to 115km/h easily. something cool you may consider is you can order a small screen that connects to the diy controller and outputs all the information you will ever need! and it keeps a log of your drive so you can even determine the most effecient, and most powerful rpm range you should stay in to acheive max. effeciency.

i would stick to your transmittion, just make sure all your rubber motor/transmittion mounts are new, or look like they can take the torque of 10" @500 motor Amps ~100ft/lbs maybe? from 0rpm.

goodluck with your conversion it looks clean!


----------



## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

*Re: A Good Motor???*

Given the age of the motor the bolts and other dimensions could be imperial sizes.

I am tempted to say hang back on the coupler making for a moment. The shaft looks to be a parallel shaft with keyway and so a taper lock could be used to build up from. Depends on how you intend to retain the sprocket on the shaft.

If your gearbox shaft needs a pilot bearing then that could make using the nut on the end of the shaft difficult.

It might be easier to assemble with a taperlock where the pilot bearing and clutch splines are in place. 

I am also thinking of how you might be able to get a few more strong bolt positions on the DE to mount onto the adaptor plate. Or make a supporting cradle that doesn't add too much to the weight.


----------



## skooler (Mar 26, 2011)

*Re: A Good Motor???*

Thanks again for all the input.

Fully aware of the inbalance the break could cause so much so I am going to simply take it off!

I managed to get it onto the bathroom scales earlier and it weighs almost exactly 60 kilos!

I managed to spend an hour or so earlier with my forklift mechanic friend who was extremely useful with how to take it apart and service it etc.!

Woody, you were right the bearing on the CE was a VERY tight fit! 

As the fan was beyond repair we removed the brushes and simply used a prybar through the air intake onto the centre of the fan, a few hits with the hammer and the whole comm shaft was out.

I think the fan has been fitted with the interference fit so not much chance of getting it out easily. We couldnt get a hub puller onto it because of how weak it is so we gave it a few hits with the 'gentle persuader'...










I'll remove the rest with the hub puller tomorrow (the centre is much stronger). Failing this i'll make a cut with a hacksaw and try and split it.

I will follow Woody and OMT's advice and use an external fan. I was thinking of 4 or 5 40mm PC fans such as the link below. These will then be connected to the casing on the air intake shown in the image below the link.

Just a thought... will this need to intake or exhust air!?

http://www.ebuyer.com/124073-startech-40mm-4-pin-ball-bearing-fan-uk-fan4x1lp4










The CE bearing appears to be slightly rough so I will pop to a local bearing shop reccomended by my forklift friend and see if they have one to fit. Its not terrable but i may as well do it while the motor is apart.

OMT, I have had a look at the DIY controller. I will definately consider it but could I not get a reasonable ready to use controller for just a little more? How long did it take you to build? the thought of several hundred amps going through something I have soldered fills me with fear! I need to do some more research really.

Are you using the Paul an Sabrina Controller? Do you have a link to this screen?

I have done some more research into the transmission. its a Vauxhall/Opel F13 box which should be good for 150ft/lbs. apparently it doesnt use a pilot bearing which is welcome news!

Gear ratios below:

Gearbox 1st 2nd 3rd 4th 5th 6th rev FDR
========================================
F10/F13 3.55 1.96 1.3 0.89 0.71 3.31 4.18

Its probably worth mentioning its got 15" rims with a 70mm profile (dont you love the mx of metric and imperial over here!) which means I have to rethink the gearing! Hopefully I can just leave it in a single gear and drive 

I hadn't even thought about the imperial measures on the motor Woody! I will bear it in mind next time I work on it.

I had a good look under the bonet of the car as well (the girlfiend is using it at the moment so not had access to it!) The motor is a tight fit but should be OK. the existing engine mount looks as though if turned upside down it could work well as a cradle! part below).










My aim now is to give the casing a good clean and paint, I will also look at cleaning up the part the brushes push up against (afraid I dont know the technical name!) If only the high temperature paint I ordered on next day delivery on Monday had actually turned up  !!!

I have also thrown in a few more pictures to show a few other things.









This is the inside of the casing, would it be OK to pressure wash this?









Trying to show how empty the engine bay is! its 1200mm long, 700mm wide and 600mm rising to 800mm tall. shoul easily be enough for the motor and a few batteries and components.

You can also see the tight fit between the bell housing (right) and the chassis (on the left under the air box/filter) its about 19"









This shows the size of the existing 3 cylinder ICE... less than a foot long! each cylinder is smaller than a can of coke!









The front of the donor (for those that live in countries that are not blessed with this car!)









And the side.

Sorry, I couldnt work out how to rotate the images in imageshack... I will rotate before uploading next time.


Thanks again for all the help!


----------



## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

*Re: A Good Motor???*



skooler said:


> I will follow Woody and OMT's advice and use an external fan. I was thinking of 4 or 5 40mm PC fans such as the link below. These will then be connected to the casing on the air intake shown in the image below the link.
> 
> Just a thought... will this need to intake or exhust air!?
> 
> http://www.ebuyer.com/124073-startech-40mm-4-pin-ball-bearing-fan-uk-fan4x1lp4


Those fans may well be too small. I would be tempted to get a centrifugal fan and duct it into a new cover band over the motor air holes. Fiddly bit of sheet metal work but worth while.
Something like this maybe.

The original air flow was from the CE to the DE, a lot of the black muck inside the motor will be carbon brush dust. I am going to move my airflow in the opposite direction and suck the dust out from the CE.

If you are fitting a fan to suck then make sure it can cope with the heat, otherwise blow in from the other end.



skooler said:


> The CE bearing appears to be slightly rough so I will pop to a local bearing shop reccomended by my forklift friend and see if they have one to fit. Its not terrable but i may as well do it while the motor is apart.


It makes sense to change the bearings regardless. 



skooler said:


> Are you using the Paul an Sabrina Controller? Do you have a link to this screen?


Paul and Sabrina's Stuff.
Very long Paul and Sabrina thread on Ecomodder.



skooler said:


> I have done some more research into the transmission. its a Vauxhall/Opel F13 box which should be good for 150ft/lbs. apparently it doesnt use a pilot bearing which is welcome news!


That's good, makes things very much easier.



skooler said:


> Its probably worth mentioning its got 15" rims with a 70mm profile (dont you love the mix of metric and imperial over here!) which means I have to rethink the gearing! Hopefully I can just leave it in a single gear and drive


I made up a simple spreadsheet to work out gear ratios with tyre diameter. It means I can see at a glance what the motor speed would be.
You don't say what tyre size you have so I will assume 185-70R15.
I have attached a screen shot for you.



skooler said:


> the existing engine mount looks as though if turned upside down it could work well as a cradle! part below).


I thought that was a bat at first! 



skooler said:


> My aim now is to give the casing a good clean and paint, I will also look at cleaning up the part the brushes push up against (afraid I dont know the technical name!)


Commutator, or comm. The comm bars ar the individual strips of copper.



skooler said:


> This is the inside of the casing, would it be OK to pressure wash this?


NO!
Do not pressure wash this unless you have removed the field windings.
Use a small scraper, or broken hacksaw blade to remove the worst of it from the metal motor frame and a stiff brush (old paint brush) to remove it from the windings.


The car looks nice and tidy. Space could be tight so measure carefully and see how much over all space there is from the bell housing face to the side of the engine bay.
From that, deduct the length of your motor, making allowances for bearing protrusion at the DE, shaft protrusion and coupler to determine how thick your adaptor plate needs to be, and if it all fits.


----------



## skooler (Mar 26, 2011)

*Re: A Good Motor???*

Thanks again for the Excellent Advice Woody 

I looked at a similar smaller blower used for PC cooling... I like the idea of the boat blower but it may be slightly too large. Saying that, I dont think that there will be space for batteries alongside the motor so it may be empty space anyway!

http://www.ebuyer.com/90623-antec-vcool-0761345-75060-8

I have compared the 3 options and found the below results.

Fan (s) CFM Qty Total
Boat Blower 90 1 90
PC Blower 16 2 32
40mm Pc Fans 5 5 25

So I suppose it depends on how much air needs to be forced in!

Would I need to run a filter with the boat blower?

I would plan to have the fans come on when the motor reaches a certain temperature to save power.

Almost there with the tyres. They're 195s (perhaps a bit too big!) I might get these changed for lower resistance in the future. I'll see how things go. I will follo our advice with the spreadsheet .

Apologies, I meant to say remove the field windings and then pressure wash!

I have already measured up the distance from the bell housing to the next 'obstacle' and it leaves about 2" to play with the adapter and coupler so it will be very tight!

Quick question, could I run a tach off the Tail end? Any ideas what I should look for? This is what is already there.










Thanks for the compliments on the car. I Purchased it 2 1/2 years ago. It cost me £600 + a new clutch and decent service, I found a mechanic who did the clutch, brakes, disks, plugs, oils etc all for £160 including parts. I have since added another 30,000+ miles onto it (mainly motorway) taking it up to 98,000. It has sailed through the MOT for the last 2 years. Only needed a couple of outer CV joints at £20 each!

Rust wise there is some bubling on the front of the bonet (stone chips) and I had to do some welding under the drivers door but not rust related! A rock fell off the back of a pickup truck infront when doing about 50mph. It bounced quite high but had fallen again by the time it hit the car, if I was any closer and it would definately of hit the windsreen. It was very lucky that it missed the sump! In the side picture of the car you can just see the black underseal under the drivers door.

It will be a shame to pull out the engine that has been so reliable to me. easily gets 50MPG with it but I suppose thats 50MPG too many!

The car has no power steering currently but there is an electrially assisted steering rack I could put in if the extra weight becomes a problem (why someone diddnt pay an extra £200 for this option when they bourght the car is behond me!).

Anyway time to get out and clean and prep for painting!

Thanks Again.


----------



## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

*Re: A Good Motor???*

Having a Tach would be good. Have a look at jackbauer's BMW thread as he arranged a tach on his motor with a couple of magnets and a pick up.
If you can get an aftermarket tach with a programmable shift light then you can set that to the safe maximum motor speed so that when the shift light is triggered it interupts the controller to stop power momentarily saving your motor from over speeding and exploding.
PM Jimdear2 if you need a circuit to do that as he has done similar.

Many people have used the electric PS on various cars with sucess, not all are EVs. I guess it will be an easier fit for yours then others.


----------



## skooler (Mar 26, 2011)

*Re: A Good Motor???*

Right, time for an update.

I have spent a couple of evenings stripping down and cleaning the motor. 

My advice to anyone that hasent got a clue about how to strip down a motor is to simply go for it, take lots of pictures as you go so that you can see how everything goes together! I was surprised just how simple my motor was!

Also replaced the bearings as suggested by Woody, that made a huge difference! I also gave it a subtle coat of heat resistant paint. the end result is below.










I couldnt get the internal fan off with my hub puller as it wasnt big enough. instead I made a cut with a hacksaw (being sure not to go too far!) then I used a metal chisel to split it then simply pulled it off.










I then removed all of the field windings attached to the motor casing. cleaned the inside of the casing with a wire brush and cleand the field windings with an old toothbrush.










I then used a wire brush attachment for a drill to strip off any paint and dirt on the casing and end caps

















I then replaced both bearings in the end caps. I ordered these from "bargain bearings" (google it) both came to £16 delivered, seems reasonable to me. I diddnt have access to a bearing press so I used plenty of lubricant and used the old bearing and a few gentle taps with the hammer to insert the new bearing. The older bearing does get stuck in the gap aswell but this can be knocked out with a chisel or screwdriver from the opposite side, it doesnt matter if it gets damaged!









To clean the brush dust from the comm bars I followed some advice from my forklift mechanic friend and used the blunt end of a stanley knife to push the dust out. this seemed to work quite well. The movement in the pic is from right to left, the blade was never used.









Again following advice from a friend, I used an old toothbrush and toothpaste to clean up the rest of the comm. Initially the paste would go a greyish colour,I then rinseed and re-applied paste. I continued this until the paste remained a white-ish colour. the comm bars at this point became a brass/copper colour.









I then reassemled the motor, taking many looks at the many pictures I had taken while taking it apart! My 12v jump starter seems to have given up so I reluctantly used the jumpleads powered off my other car.

On the first connection there was a definate short. there are four brushes on the motor, 2 that have power connections. On the casing these are labelled "A" and "AA" so I labelled the brush holders in tip-ex "A" and "AA"

Not sure how but when I painted the motor parts I managed to re-label them incorrectly. Using a bit of common sense I manged to work it out correctly and connect everything as it should be.

Spinning the motor up on 12 volts was a huge improvement on the 1st spinup it seems a lot smoother accellerating and decellarating, and no more rubbing noises. I assume this is because the removed fan and replacement bearings has helped with the balancing. removing all of the 'deposits' from the inside has probably helped also.











I have been thinking a bit more about controllers. I am really thinking of getting a Soliton Jr, Athough overkill for my project. It seems a lot simpler than the other products, better featured, better speced, lots of outputs, includes pre-charge, includes contactor and support is available on this site. (correct me if I am wrong with any of that!) Otherwise it would be the open revolt, In my opinion, the 3 days or so it would take me to put this together would be better spent doing some overtime to help towards paying for a prebuilt controller. I would also neeed a contactor and pre-charge costing another £100-£200, add that to piece of mind that i am buying a quality, SAFE product and the Soliton Jr seems a no brainer to me.

Feel free to try and persuade me otherwise!

My next step while saving up for a controller (whichever option I take) is to begin stripping down the ICE components of the car. Currently made difficult as the girlfriend is using it! (she WILL make her mind up on what she wants next!) I am hoping that this will be available in the next couple of weeks and I can then start on the adapter and coupler also.

Im really tempted to do the conversion to one of the below instead! Only problem being is that I could very easily end up with 4 cars and no space!

I wonder how much I could make back by selling off the ICE components?

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/2003-MAZDA-RX-8-192-PS-SILVER-/280726867508?pt=Automobiles_UK&hash=item415ca00e34

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/2004-53-Winning-Blue-Mazda-RX-8-231-PS-High-Power-/220839715356?pt=UK_CarsParts_Vehicles_CarParts_SM&hash=item336b12a21c

Very quick question on how to wire up the motor.

It has four equal sized cables (25mm square) (labbelled A, AA, Y, YY) 2 connect to the field windings, 2 to the brushes. on my 12v trialls I have only managed to get movement using only the 2 for the brushes.

Firstly, what is the advantage of supplying power to the field windings (It runs with no power supplied!)

Secondly, I havent tried this as I dont want to risk damaging anything but if I supplied the positive to one brush wire (A) and then jumpered AA to Y then supplied the negative side to YY, would this be how to optimise the field windings? Could this allow for an electronic reverse (not that I want to use it but just interesting to see!)

Basically what im trying to describe above is:

Positive end>>>> Brush>>>>field winding>>>>>field winding>>>>>brush>>>> negative end
EDIT: WRONG!!! (thanks major!) should be:
Positive end>>>> Brush>>>>field winding>>>>>brush>>>>>field winding>>>> negative end
 
Does that make sense?

Sorry to gabble on and thanks again for all your help.


----------



## major (Apr 4, 2008)

*Re: A Good Motor???*



skooler said:


> Very quick question on how to wire up the motor.
> 
> It has four equal sized cables (25mm square) (labbelled A, AA, Y, YY) 2 connect to the field windings, 2 to the brushes. on my 12v trialls I have only managed to get movement using only the 2 for the brushes.
> 
> ...


Yes, you need the field in series with the armature.

But this is different and incorrect:



> Positive end>>>> Brush>>>>field winding>>>>>field winding>>>>>brush>>>> negative end


Battery terminal to one brush, other brush to field, and other field to other battery terminal.

Reverse one relative to the other and it will rotate opposite direction.

The reason it rotated with power only to the armature is because the armature will set its own field and actually rotate in that field. Strange, but true  Now this armature field is what distorts the main field established by the field coils. The armature field is at quadrature with the main field or at 90º electrical (45º mechanical for a 4 pole). So it points inbetween the iron poles and has a weak magnetic path. So, although it produced enough torque to rotate itself, that's about the limit. You likely could have prevented rotation with a finger or two on the shaft 

Your motor has an unusual pole shoe design. Split 

Regards,

major


----------



## skooler (Mar 26, 2011)

*Re: A Good Motor???*

Hi all, its been a few weeks since my last update. I have been doing lots of overtime and taken a holiday, My project has taken an interesting turn!

Major, 
Apologies for my senior moment! Very well explained so thanks for that, makes a lot more sense now!

I tried shorting the "AA" and "Y" and the motor spun up much more powerefully, I couldnt stop the rotation by hand before but I could with a pair of grips. Now there is no chance! I have ordered a 400Amp earth bar to short the 2 connections permenantly.

The pole shoe design is slightly odd, it made it very difficult to put back together!

*Now for the interesting bit...*
I have decided that if I am going to do this conversion then I am going to do it properly, I'd rather spend an exra few ££££ to have something better. Unfortunately, this means the corsa is a no go now, I just cant see the sense in spending thousands on a conversion to have it sitting in such a car. I still believe that it would be a good/ideal donor in terms of aerodynamics and weight, but it just hasnt got the wow factor I would like.


Soooo, yesterday I confirmed the purchase of a 2004 Mazda RX8! To summarise:

I payed £1200 for it ($2000 USD?)
£100 delivery (its 60 miles away so not too bad)
Wankel/rotary engine has low compression, hence price
Spotless condition inside and out
Just had a fair bit of money spent on new alloys etc (£4000 says the dealer... hmmm)
Full mazda service history
1400KG kerb weight (3000lbs)
Its due to be delivered over the next couple of days, needless to say as soon as it arrives I will be pulling out the ICE and related £$%&! I am hoping to get at least £400 back for these parts (just had a new exhaust)

Its perhaps slightly heavy but not a tank by any means, I am confident I can get the power out of my motor to get this up to 70MPH

*The Plan*
The plan is to mate my existing motor directly to the gearbox. This will be driven by a soliton controller, looking more likely to be a Soliton 1 than a Junior now to help futureproof my system. I like the way the controllers logging system can be used to drive a tablet or similar making a modern EV dash very simple!

As for batteries, this is where it gets a bit more interesting! I am talking to a company about a new(ish) technology that I may be able to use. Its around a third the power/weight density of LiFePo4, cant say much more than that. If I cant strike a deal then it will most likely be a Wintson/Headway/A123 pack. Probably 6-12 months off anyway!

Charger will likely be an Elcon if this battery deal doesnt go through, reviews seem good.

Once complete, if the motor is not quite good enough then I think I could fit dual warp 9s to the rear axle for a more direct drive approach, just thinking at this point - its nothing major lost if I cant use the motor (Actually I could fit 3 warp 9s to the rear diff before I run out of space but this is dreaming!

*Questions*
I am thinking that mounting my current motor straight onto the rear diff is a no go, i cant see it having the torque to power it?

How much power do you think I could get from my current motor, I know it is hard to say from pictures.

I am happy to advance the motor Brushes if its worth while, thoughts?

I am not 100% sure on battery placement on a RWD as the rear axle is in the way! I would like to keep as much boot/trunk space as possible, while maintaining the cars 50/50 balance. obviously theres under the bonnet/hood and where the fuel tank goes, other than that? I will have a propper look when it gets delivered.

*Pictures (actual car)*
*







*

*







*

*







*


----------



## Dameon (Sep 19, 2011)

*Re: A Good Motor???*

Nice car, except the steering wheel's on the wrong side! I hope you got a discount for that major manufacturing error. 

The RX8 makes for a great EV conversion. Rear drive is no worry as the gas tank space can be used for batteries and you have little concern for motor length in the front... no more longitudinal. 

Keep up the great updates and pictures.


----------



## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

*Re: A Good Motor???*

Seems like a good choice of donor.
It is the same reasoning that stopped me looking for an old Micra or Polo for my conversion. I couldn't spend 10k+ building a car that still only looks like 1k. Also I have to love it to put the effort in as a project.


----------



## favguy (May 2, 2008)

*Re: A Good Motor???*

How did I miss this until now?? Nice to see another UK conversion. That Mazda is lovely, very nice buy for only £1200.

Look forward to following this.

Paul


----------



## skooler (Mar 26, 2011)

*Re: A Good Motor???*

Thanks for the kind words, I aim to provide lots more pictures as its one of the things that helped me catch the EV bug!

Time for a quick update, I will post a longer one after this weekend.

The car was delivered last tuesday (27th Sep) very happy apart from a ratchet strap that had been allowed to rub on the paintwork for the 60 mile journey while being towed. Its scratched the otherwise imacculate paintwork a little. Im hoping it will buff out.

I diddnt get chance to start de-ICEing (Internal Combusion Engine) until last weekend but I connected 12v to the battery and all of the 12V works perfectly. It also has a 12 speaker bose speaker system that I had to try out. 

*De-ICEing*
I spent around 10 hours over the weekend de-ICEing and buying some new tools (£200 worth of axle stands, sockets, ratchet grinder, jigsaw etc.) I'm on the lookout for a welder, I can get a 250 Arc welder new for £50 but im not sure if it will be good enough for battery racks, motor mounts etc. I am thinking that I am better off forking out and going mig?

As for stripping down the mazda, it was reasonably simple, almost everything is a 10mm bolt! a couple of pics of stripping down are below. From the engine bay I have removed 12v battery (huge!) air filter and intake, coolant reservoir, radiator, air con radiator (a mate drained the coolant into my other car as he had a kit handy) also got the exhaust out.

Still to come is the AC pump/compressor, heater matrix pipes, two small radiators for cooling the oil (mounted next to the foglights) and also the fuel tank and lines.

Oh and the engine!

Staying in for now is the ECU and fusebox. I'm not sure what the ECU actually does yet that doesnt relate to the engine so I'm going to leave it until I do! 

I tried to get the engine out on Tuesday night but my friends engine crane wasnt long enough to get it out safely. I have managed to arrange to borrow a larger crane for this weekend so will post another update once its out.

Pics:

Before starting









battery, airbox and coolant reservoir out.









Radiator Out









space the radiator occupied









*Power steering and AC*
Once the radiators were out I had a good look under the car to see a welcome surprise, any guesses what this block on the steering rack with the 10mm(sq) wire going into it does? 



















Yep the RX8 has electric power steering, I'm sure this is a good thing (apart from eating range!) it means I dont need to either power the existing pump or convert to a manual rack 

Another welcome surprise is that the tach seems to be in the gearbox, I will test this once the engines out.

As I have no reason to drive a belt and pully for power steering I am now thinking about whether I want Air Conditioning or not. My original plan was to have a second motor I could switch on when I wanted the AC or power steering (e.g. to park). The radiator for the AC is huge and the compressor will need to be driven off a seperate motor so is it really worth it? Especially when its only hot enough for AC a couple of weeks a year in the UK!

I may leave the plumbing for it in place so I can always add it back in if needed.

*RX8 as a doner*

I think the RX8 could become quite a popular doner car, the only downside I can see is the weight. However:

Lots of space under the bonnet
Cheap to pick up (because of problems with the OEM engine)
Decent GVW (3000KG with trailer!)
Electric power steering (I think this is good!)
not a bad looker (my taste)
Easy to work with
We'll see if I still agree with this at the end of my build!

*Questions*
some of these from my last post.

How much power do you think I could get from my current motor, I know it is hard to say from pictures.

I am happy to advance the motor Brushes if its worth while, thoughts?

Would it be OK to mount batterys/cells behind the front bumper? I understand that this is a crumple zone but a well built box should protect the batteries from a small bump? or is it a no go? I'm sure I have seen another member do this (cant find the thread, think it was one of the saturns)?

Will Arc be good enough for welding boxes and motor mounts or should I go mig?


Thanks for reading, any feedback/answers is greatly appreciated 

Cheers,

Mike


----------



## dillond666 (Dec 27, 2010)

*Re: A Good Motor???*

Arc will be good enough for heavy welding.


----------



## jackbauer (Jan 12, 2008)

*Re: A Good Motor???*

I wouldn't have a problem mounting batteries behind the bumper. I would recommend getting a mig welder. Much neater welds with no slag and can be turned down low for welding thin material. They are ten a penny in the uk.

Nice car btw. Good luck with the project


----------



## skooler (Mar 26, 2011)

*A Good Motor / RX8 Conversion*

Right, I keep saying on various threads on the forum that I'll post an update this weekend. Just had a bit of a breakthrough so I'll do it now 

I have spent the last 3/4 weeks stripping the car of ICE related parts and selling them on ebay. I have made over £650 back so far by selling the unwanted parts!

I managed to borrow an engine crane, the RX8 engine VERY far back and impossible to get to! we lengthened the arm with a piece of box section (see second pic). A couple of friends gave me a hand with this, I have never done anything like this before!

I'll let the pictures do the talking for me on this one, apologies for any obscenities in the pictures (not everyone likes being photographed)!























































I also measured up the space available for the rear battery box to sit under the boot/trunk floor. It is 14" high, 24" wide (side of car) and 20" bumper - back seat. Enough for 30 200AH Winston/ThunderSky/Sinopoly cells. the 1st picture shows the spare wheel well - filled with 6" foam on mine. The 2nd and 3rd show the underside of this from the rear bumper. the space was previously occupied by the exhaust backbox.




























Thanks for looking. good news in the next post :-D

Cheers,

Mike


----------



## MalcolmB (Jun 10, 2008)

*Re: A Good Motor???*

Hi Mike

That car is quite a find. I hadn't realised the RX8s were going so cheap. Got me thinking now...

If I have a stab at your motor question someone with more sense is bound to come along and correct me:
I would guesstimate that a motor that size has a continuous current rating of very roughly 200 amps. The commutator has a high bar count, so it should be able to handle fairly high voltage. If you use a 140V battery pack that would mean a continuous power input of 28 kW, or roughly 30 hp at the wheels by the time you've deducted efficiency losses. For peak power, it should be possible to run the motor at three times its continuous current for a minute or so IF you have decent cooling, so that would give you a peak power output of around 90 hp. Please take note of all the ifs and roughlys...

Personally I would try to mount the batteries further inboard from the crumple zones if it's at all possible. I don't have the luxury of crumple zones myself.

An experienced stick welder would have no problem making up the battery racks, but since you ask the question you're probably not that experienced, so I'd recommend MIG as well


----------



## skooler (Mar 26, 2011)

*Re: A Good Motor???*

Jack and dillond666,

Thanks for the response (sorry I missed it before!), I have arranged to borrow a gas mig welder to get the boxes and mounts done.


*Coupler and Flywheel*
This is my little breakthrough over the last couple of weeks. stupidly, I forgot to take the 'before' pictures of the flywheel. I will try to describe it! 

It was as below but with a ring gear on the outside and about half inch thick weight on the back, see the second pic and the shiny outside. 










I had the the sprocket that came with the motor converted into the coupler! the gear was removed and 4 additional holes tapped to allow it to bolt to the flywheel. 3 grub screws are then positioned around the outside to assist with locking it to the shaft. The locking nut and washer shown in the first picture are still to be used to lock it to the motor shaft.










*







*

The above picture tries to show the thickness of the flywheel.

*







*

Trying to show the 4 bolts locking the coupler to the flywheel. these are all grade 10.9 to stop them from sheering.

*







*

I kept the 2 threaded inserts to help remove the coupler if ever needed. it provides something to 'grip' to.

*







*

Trying to show 2 of the 3 grub screws in this picture.

*







*

finnished product 

*







*

The above shows how the centre of the sprocket has been turned to fit inside the stock flywheel. the RX8 flywheel also has a keyed centre

Forgot to mention. the machinist charged me £50 to turn the sprocket, flywheel and join them together! bargain!

*Target*
The target is to get the motor and gearbox coupled, mounts in and be able to get a 12/24V test drive by the end of the weekend (next weekend at the latest... Fingers crossed!

Thanks again everyone.

Mike

P.S.
I am also realising that this thread might be diffucult for people in low bandwidth areas to follow with all the pictures! (and yes I need to hoover my carpet!)


----------



## skooler (Mar 26, 2011)

*Re: A Good Motor???*



MalcolmB said:


> Hi Mike
> 
> That car is quite a find. I hadn't realised the RX8s were going so cheap. Got me thinking now...
> 
> ...


Thanks MalcomB, It was a find! such a good deal that I simply had to take it there and then! Couldn't afford it but hey!

Thanks for the reply. I was thinking roughly the same figures: 120v-144V and 200-250 amps continuous. Thanks for letting me know I'm not mad/crazy!

90hp peak with all the torque from 0RPM sounds great to me, should give a stock RX8 a run for its money, not that I am looking at performance tooooo much.

Hopefully one of the experts like major can tune in and confirm! 

I suppose the worst case scenario is that I melt the motor and have to treat myself to a warp/kostov 11... maybe a dual motor if it happens near christmas or a birthday  

Agreed with keeping batteries out of the crumple zones if possible. the rear box is around 12" from the bumper so should be OK, just the front boxes that might be close. see pic below, taken from windscreen facing the front bumper (see my feet!) that space looks like its made for cells to go in!


----------



## Spyder.ev (Sep 6, 2011)

*Re: A Good Motor???*

Hi skooler
Will be closely watching how your build goes,  
1point on your batteries, are you building boxes for them ? If so build with aluminium and get someone who can Tig weld that's what I intend to do (looks nice and is light) 
Anyway keep us updated
Thx


----------



## skooler (Mar 26, 2011)

*Re: A Good Motor???*



Spyder.ev said:


> Hi skooler
> Will be closely watching how your build goes,
> 1point on your batteries, are you building boxes for them ? If so build with aluminium and get someone who can Tig weld that's what I intend to do (looks nice and is light)
> Anyway keep us updated
> Thx


Hi Spyder,

I dont blame you, what year and trim is your RX8? have you got the satnav model?

I plan to build box frames out of angled steel (2-3mm thick) and then line it with either 600micron pvc or 1mm aluminium. It will then be siliconed to waterproof. 

I dont really see a need to use aluminium entirely for the box, as steel is only for the frame it will be reasonably light and strong. The aluminium panel can then be riveted or bolted to the frame. 

One of the pics above shows the space under the boot. it will fit 30 200AH Sinopoly cells. Good, but this is 250KG of lithium + the box, cabling etc all over the rear axel. its concerning me slightly!

saving a couple of KG on using aluminium throughout isn't going to make all that much difference!


----------



## Spyder.ev (Sep 6, 2011)

*Re: A Good Motor???*

Hi skooler,
How goes it... Have you had it running yet ,?
Let us know an update would be good.
With some pictures of course 
Anyway
Cheers mike.


----------



## skooler (Mar 26, 2011)

*Re: A Good Motor???*



Spyder.ev said:


> Hi skooler,
> How goes it... Have you had it running yet ,?
> Let us know an update would be good.
> With some pictures of course
> ...


Hi Spyder,
Going well, the car still isnt running though. I'm still waiting for my machinist to complete my adapter plate. It should be ready today or next Friday so stand by for an update!

I've asked him to take some pictures of how he makes it and I'll post them up as soon as i get them off him 

Cheers,

Mike


----------



## skooler (Mar 26, 2011)

*Re: A Good Motor???*

Dont you hate it when you right a long post then accidently press the back button and lose everything!? grrrr!

Its update time...

I finished work for christmas yesterday and picked up up my adaptor plate from the machinist. He has done a reasonably good job.

The aim for the next couple of days is to get the wheel turning and maybe go for a little drive...

*'Belly band'*

Before attaching the adaptor plate I wanted to create a 'belly band' so that I could weld up some brackets without welding to the motor case.

For this I am using a 50mm x 3mm x 1m steels strip, 2 bolts with locking nuts and spring washers. total cost was £4.60!

Firstly I measured the circumference of the motor and added 100mm. I then cut the strip to this length

I then measured 50mm from each end and scored with the angle grinder.

I then used a rubber mallet and a block of wood to bend the two ends of the strip to shape.

once bent, Idrilled boh ends with identicle holes and attached one end to the casing of the motor










Then I simply bent the strip of steel around the motor to form the 'belly band'










The end result is a near perfectly round band. i then repeated the above on the opposite side of the steel strip.









I then drilled holes around the band which line up with the bolts for the field shoe holders, i removed 1 row of bolts, placed the 'belly band' around the motor, and reinserted the bolts. My thoughts are that this will stop the motor from twisting in the band.










The two ends of the band are then bolted together to pull the band tight to the motor.

*Adaptor Plate*

The adaptor plate is very simple in design. I think that it would be very easy to replicate for other vehicles and motors.

It is made up of two 1/2" aluminium plates, aluminium spacers and four 12.9 gauge M16 bolts (overkill)

The motor plate locates the motor shaft exactly centre and also provides holes to bolt into the existing DE cap bolt holes.

The gearbox plate locates the gearbox shaft exactly centre and contains tapped holes for the original gearbox holes and also some dowle pins to help with allignment.

The total thickness is 52mm (to achieve the 'magic distance')

Firstly I placed the motor plate over the motor and bolted it into place. it is worth noting that this plate is deliberately bigger so that it can accomodate a bigger motor if required in the future










Then I attached the flywhell to the motor shaft (see post 45 for how that was made). it is a very tight fit so the lump hammer, a block of wood and lots of WD40 were required to make it fit! The thread in the centre houses a washer and locking nut to stop the flywheel from moving up and down the shaft.










I then attached the clutch and pressure plate and attached a 12V car battery to make sure everything ran true and appeared balanced (it did thankfully!), also to centre the clutch plate by eye.










I then trial fitted the gearbox plate on the gearbox befor mounting it to the motor assembly along with the spacers and M16 bolts.



















The gearbox then droped straight onto the adapter plate perfectly. lining up with the clutch disc etc.










I had to spin the motor up again while it was in gear to see if everthing turned as expected. It did!

*Clutch*
Everything was going far too well!

The clutch seems to operate but does not completely disengage, it slips slightly but everythng still turns when the thrust bearing is actuated (pedal to the floor)

I am thinking that the flywheel/pressure plate is slightly further away from the gearbox than it was before (1/2mm)and isnt being pushed down completey.

Could I just add a spacer to the thrust bearing to make it push further towards the pressure plate?

I would reduce the size of the spacers on the adaptor plate but this would put the two shafts (gearbox and motor) too close for comfort.

Any suggestions welcomed!

Tomorrow I will weld up the brackets that join the original engine mounts to the belly band, hopefully get the wheels turning and possibly even have a dive up and down the driveway!

Thanks for reading.

Cheers,

Mike


----------



## skooler (Mar 26, 2011)

*Re: A Good Motor???*

The pictures below just make so much sense!

Having a gearbox and motor joined togethor looks just right!


----------



## kakheath (Jan 7, 2012)

*Re: A Good Motor???*



skooler said:


> The clutch seems to operate but does not completely disengage, it slips slightly but everythng still turns when the thrust bearing is actuated (pedal to the floor)
> 
> I am thinking that the flywheel/pressure plate is slightly further away from the gearbox than it was before (1/2mm)and isnt being pushed down completey.
> 
> ...


Could the aluminum motor adapter be flexing slightly? The actuation to release the clutch actually exerts quite a bit of force on this part. With the outer corners of the motor adapter being so far from the center, this may be the problem. Provided the trans/flywheel spacing is still correct. I would recommend the spacer idea to extend the reach of thrust bearing.

Good luck. I think I saw a youtube video where you were taking your car for a spin (with a 12V battery). So it looks like you figured out the engagement problem afterall.


----------



## skooler (Mar 26, 2011)

*Re: A Good Motor???*



kakheath said:


> Could the aluminum motor adapter be flexing slightly? The actuation to release the clutch actually exerts quite a bit of force on this part. With the outer corners of the motor adapter being so far from the center, this may be the problem. Provided the trans/flywheel spacing is still correct. I would recommend the spacer idea to extend the reach of thrust bearing.
> 
> Good luck. I think I saw a youtube video where you were taking your car for a spin (with a 12V battery). So it looks like you figured out the engagement problem afterall.


Hi Kakheath,

I got the problem sorted  

It was the thickness of the spacers, I have reduced the thickness from 24mm to 12mm and it works perfectly.

The youtube video was actually without a working clutch (would not disengage). The power was controlled with jump leads in the passenger seat connected to an old starter battery, controlled by the passenger.

here is a link to my friend's youtube channel (he uploaded the video).

http://www.youtube.com/user/MHC21148?feature=watch

I'm waiting to finish of my motor mounts before I post a full update. Just delayed by work commitments at present.

Cheers,

Mike

P.S - Kakheath, I'll hopefully get those measurements for you tomorrow evening!

EDIT: Forgot to mention... by changing the spacer thickness the two shafts (motor and gearbox) did touch,. The solution was to simply shorten the gearbox shaft with the angle grinder. Works a charm!


----------



## kakheath (Jan 7, 2012)

*Re: A Good Motor???*

Have you finalized your pack decision and placed the order? I've been quoted a very reasonable rate for A123 20Ah pouch cells direct from China. There is of course additional charges like forced air freight (no sea option), additional 3.9% for paypal (for my protection), and customs charges (3.4% of declaration). It seems even with air freight they're cheaper per Ah than the 15Ah Headways. To my door Headways 40152S-15Ah are $1.25/Ah ([email protected]) whereas A123s are $1.11/Ah ([email protected]). I'll probably place my battery order before the end of the week . Nice thing is they should arrive very quick by UPS or DHL.

Headway source:
> Victoria Chen
> Headway Group(Cables& Batteries) > tel:+86-572-6129668 /6128608 > fax:+86-572-6236642/6128570 > email: [email protected] , [email protected], [email protected] > Http://www.headway-cn.com <http://www.headway-cn.com/> > http://www.headway-cn.en.alibaba.com

A123 source:
Xin Wang 
 Shenzhen Victpower Technology Co., Ltd. T: 086 0755 89635916 | F: 086 0755 89635636 | M: 15810120194 E: [email protected] W:http://www.victpower.cn Products Showroom on Alibaba.com

Cheers,
Kevin


----------



## skooler (Mar 26, 2011)

*Re: A Good Motor???*



kakheath said:


> Have you finalized your pack decision and placed the order? I've been quoted a very reasonable rate for A123 20Ah pouch cells direct from China. There is of course additional charges like forced air freight (no sea option), additional 3.9% for paypal (for my protection), and customs charges (3.4% of declaration). It seems even with air freight they're cheaper per Ah than the 15Ah Headways. To my door Headways 40152S-15Ah are $1.25/Ah ([email protected]) whereas A123s are $1.11/Ah ([email protected]). I'll probably place my battery order before the end of the week . Nice thing is they should arrive very quick by UPS or DHL.
> 
> Headway source:
> > Victoria Chen
> ...


 
I'm going for Sinopoly cells.

I have been reselling them for DIY conversions and photovoltaic installations.

I'm not quite sure when I will have cells for myself yet, I've already sold my own order! 

I will be using 75 200AH cells (they do fit!). Im building more of a long range vehicle for a weekly commute than I am a sports car.

I must admit that is an excellent price for A123 cells! very tempting providing they are legit! I just dont fancy making all of those connections!

Cheers,

Mike


----------



## skooler (Mar 26, 2011)

*Re: A Good Motor???*

Hi All,

Long time no update!

Motor is in, mounts have finally been completed.

For those looking at 11" motors in an RX8. It is doable... Just. My pictures will show you just how close it is! (Mine is a 9")

*Motor Mounts*
The mounting design is reasonably simple and doesnt really have a single point of failure.

The original RX8 engine mounts sit on the front subframe. These were removed and the points have been joined together using a piece of 50mm Box (3mm thick) a round cutout is then cut in the centre to accomodate the Motor. Obviously this weakens the box section so it has been reinforced with plates welded to the sides.

The original mounts now bolt into tapped holes in the box.

A band around the motor then holds two 50mm (3mm) box section 'outriggers' or 'wings'. These then sit on top of the original mounts (in new locations) and are bolted in.

I wanted to use the original mounts so that I still have replacable OEM parts should anything need replacing.

Just need to paint the mounts and repaint the motor (it got scratched using the chain to lower it in)

Any comments/feedback/criticism is welcomed!

Original engine mount location.









Box section that joins engine mount locations.









Box section in place, showing how it mounts to the front subframe.









OEM engine mounts in place on box section.









Motor being lowered into position, this allowed us to measure up for the 'wings'. The original ICE was slightly off center so I have had to have the motor slightly off centre also.









I forgot to take a picture of the Outriggers/wings being created. Basically its just box section welded to the band I made in an earlier post. Just needs a lick of paint.










This picture shows the mounts but also how badly chipped the motor got by using a chain to lower it in. Next time I will use some kind of strap - lesson learnt!


















*Adaptor Plate Design Flaw*

I also made a stupid mistake with my adaptor plate design.

I didn't consider the size of the transmission tunnel (after blabbering on about it to other members too!)

My original adaptor plate was 15" by 15" with 4 M16, grade 12.9 bolts in each corner.










The top two corners were hitting the sides of the transmission tunnel and the sharp edges could easily have pierced the thin metal.

The solution was to round off each of the top corners and place a single bolt (3 total) in the centre of the adaptor plate. 

The only problem with this is that the nut for the bolt needed to be in the bell housing casing. Its a bit of an unwanted comproise but I cut a small notch in the bell housing to take the nut for this bolt.

End result:









*Stupidity*
Another small mishap... A grinding disk shattered wihile working in the car. the picture above shows where the disc fragments zipped up the brakelines.

They still work fine but I will be replacing anyway as a precaution.

*Clutch/Flywheel*
Finally, I hate clutches!

The flywheel has to be in EXACTLY the same place in order for the clutch to work correctly. 1mm either way and it either slips or wont release!

In the end it was down to trial and error. I made up new tempory spacers between the motor and gearbox plate using aluminium offcuts, washers, PVC sheet etc.

Once I was happy with the ditance I got the machinist to make up 3 more spacers.

Cheers,

Mike


----------



## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

*Re: A Good Motor???*

Good progress!

Just wondering, that curved cutout on the box section crossmember. Are you plating it over to put back some strength? Should do that anyway to close the opening and maybe weld in a box section underneath to put back back some strength and stiffness.

Also the motor sits in to the cutout but on rubber mounts. As the rubber compresses does the motor contact the cutout at all? You could add a strip of thick rubber in the curve to cushion any contact as you go over speed bumps.

The mounting arms coming off the motor clamp band could benefit from some triangular tabs to spread the weld joint further around the clamp and triangulate the arms a bit.

Don't worry about the chipped paint. The motor can alsways come back out, when everything is done, and get cleaned up and repainted.

To ease installation you could bolt or weld on a lifting ring on the clamp band to hook the chain to. Or you could wind in lifting eyebolts to replace a pair of the feild coil bolts for installation purposes.

For mine I am making a pair of lifting rings to bolt on to a a couple of existing M10 holes in the motor frame. The rings will be removed after fitting and the holes will plugged with grub/set screws.


----------



## kakheath (Jan 7, 2012)

*Re: A Good Motor???*

Great progress skooler. Thanks for all the photos. You're gonna be on the road in no time. I'm stuck in battery mode right now - testing and working out the bugs in my design before assembly. Good luck and keep the progress going.


----------



## skooler (Mar 26, 2011)

*Re: A Good Motor???*

Hi Woody, 

Thanks for the input, answers/responses are below.



Woodsmith said:


> Just wondering, that curved cutout on the box section crossmember. Are you plating it over to put back some strength? Should do that anyway to close the opening and maybe weld in a box section underneath to put back back some strength and stiffness..
> 
> Also the motor sits in to the cutout but on rubber mounts. As the rubber compresses does the motor contact the cutout at all? You could add a strip of thick rubber in the curve to cushion any contact as you go over speed bumps.


Its currently left open, I think that changing it to plate over the cutout could help stiffen things up, if anything it will stop it holding water!

The mounts barely compress, they seem to allow more side to side movement. I have tried jumping on the motor (I know very scientific!) and there is no contact at all.

I do like the idea of the thick rubber though! if I do plate over the cutout I'll do that 

I haven't got a very good picture, but what has been done to stiffen up the Crossmember is to weld an angled plate to the sides of the cutout. THis meets in the middle at the bottom and has been welded on all sides.

I'll get a picture.

In the below pic you can see the start of this angle section.












Woodsmith said:


> The mounting arms coming off the motor clamp band could benefit from some triangular tabs to spread the weld joint further around the clamp and triangulate the arms a bit.


I like the idea, the next time I have it out I will definately add some! Its solid as it is but anything that helps is worthwhile.



Woodsmith said:


> To ease installation you could bolt or weld on a lifting ring on the clamp band to hook the chain to. Or you could wind in lifting eyebolts to replace a pair of the feild coil bolts for installation purposes.


Another great Idea Woody, I assume you mean like a towing eye? I'll see what I can buy or fabricate.

The only problem is that it is often necessary to to have the chain in different places to help manuever the motor into the correct position.

I am thinking that the next time it coes out, the gearbox will still be attached! lining up the splines is a nightmare.



kakheath said:


> Great progress skooler. Thanks for all the photos. You're gonna be on the road in no time. I'm stuck in battery mode right now - testing and working out the bugs in my design before assembly. Good luck and keep the progress going.


Batteries and controller will be my next step, I have already sold the batteries I ordered for my conversion. I need to re-order them.

Anyone know anywhere to get a Soliton1 in the EU? Second hand is fine

Cheers,

Mike


----------



## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

*Re: A Good Motor???*



skooler said:


> Another great Idea Woody, I assume you mean like a towing eye? I'll see what I can buy or fabricate.
> 
> The only problem is that it is often necessary to to have the chain in different places to help manuever the motor into the correct position.
> 
> ...



You can try bolting a eye to that top bolt on the adaptor plate and welding one on the clamp band. That will give you two lifting points to use with a load leveller that you can buy, or make a simple version of.

I am using this sort of eye bolt.









But you can probably make something like this to weld or bolt on.









You could try JozzTek (Jozzer on here) for the Soliton.


----------



## Ziggythewiz (May 16, 2010)

*Re: A Good Motor???*



skooler said:


> I am thinking that the next time it coes out, the gearbox will still be attached! lining up the splines is a nightmare.


My incredibly professional solution was to put a skateboard (2x8 and organizer drawer wheels) on a section of 2x10 on some cinders, then lift with a jack to create an angle to match the splines (measured by sticking level on splines, then on motor and putting the bubble in the same place). Slid right on.

Was much less of a ******* method than my first attempt.


----------



## Spyder.ev (Sep 6, 2011)

*Re: A Good Motor???*

Hey mike,
Great job of frame
Have you actually seen any of these sinolopy batteries ? 
I know you did say you bought some small ones to test but haven't heard anything....
75 batteries ? We're you going to put them I'm struggling with 70 lol....

Cheers nick


----------



## skooler (Mar 26, 2011)

*Re: A Good Motor???*



Spyder.ev said:


> Hey mike,
> Great job of frame
> Have you actually seen any of these sinolopy batteries ?
> I know you did say you bought some small ones to test but haven't heard anything....
> ...


 
Hi Nick,

Cheers, It looks a bit messy at the moment but I'm hoping a decent paint job will sort it!

My first order of stock and my own batteries has already been sold. They went direct to the buyer so I diddnt see them so to speak.

The test cells should be with me in a couple of weeks 

Yep... 75 batteries is a challenge! I had some cardboard cutouts made up on the CAD/CAM and trial fitted them.

I cant remember the exact quantities in each location (Ii have it drawn in a notepad I dont have with me) but...

4 different sub packs:

*~40 Underneath the boot/trunk* where the exhaust backbox once was. Making it flat on the inside - see pic below (with dimensions in marker pen!)

There will be 2 'layers' of cells. On the bottom they will be on their sides and the top ones will be the correct way up, resting just above the bottom cells.

It means that the box will be very low.

I plan to have a transparent sheet of polycarbonate as a lid so that the cells can be seen if anybody asks the question!

from the boot opening:









The underside looking from rear bumper.









An awful attempt of showing what I mean in paint!:









*~ 16 cells in the fuel tank area.* 8 underneath each of the rear passenger seats layed on their sides. This will mean cutting the bodywork under the seats and adding some kind of insulation. Its do-able but means losing about an inch of foam padding on the seat.

Doesnt bother me as I won't be sitting on them!

*~20 cells behind the front bumper. *In the space that the radiators once used. Its in a crumple zone but its a compromise. You could probably get more than 20 in here.










Hope this helps.

Cheers,

Mike


----------



## josh-uk (Feb 5, 2012)

*Re: A Good Motor???*

Mike,
have you had a look at insurance on an (electric) RX-8 yet, I imagine it would be quite high for a 19 year old! Also, have you had a look at the regulations the car has to meet with the conversion?

I like the idea of an rx8 for a donor, insurance would be the only problem for me. Cheap for such a new, stylish car. I've found loads of rx8's for under 2 grand. (For anyone else looking, here's one i found for £1,295 - bargain! http://www.autotrader.co.uk/classified/advert/201151437370864/sort/priceasc/usedcars/price-to/3000/model/rx8/make/mazda/postcode/cf312jg/page/1/quicksearch/true/radius/1500?logcode=p)

Anyway, Great conversion so far, keep the posts coming!


----------



## skooler (Mar 26, 2011)

*Re: A Good Motor???*



josh-uk said:


> Mike,
> have you had a look at insurance on an (electric) RX-8 yet, I imagine it would be quite high for a 19 year old! Also, have you had a look at the regulations the car has to meet with the conversion?
> 
> I like the idea of an rx8 for a donor, insurance would be the only problem for me. Cheap for such a new, stylish car. I've found loads of rx8's for under 2 grand. (For anyone else looking, here's one i found for £1,295 - bargain! http://www.autotrader.co.uk/classif...page/1/quicksearch/true/radius/1500?logcode=p)
> ...


 
Hi Josh,

I had a informal quote from Adrian Flux and it wasn't too bad. around £800, and thats insuring the actual value of the components and time. I think I put £20,000! (so I cant lose out)

I have 4 year no claims and have held my license for over 3 years no so its not that bad for somebody my age. I paid ~£600 this year to insure my 1998 1.6 Vectra with comprehensive cover to put things into perspective.

I have a friend that works at the DVLA and all he said I need to do is not cut/change any major structures (body panels are fine), keep reciepts for major componenents, get an independant garage to test the car (basically an MOT), change the fuel type and get it trailored to a DVLA office for an inspection.

I think the RX8 is a great doner. Like you said - its cheap, stylish, well built and luckily for us its fitted with an engine that is likely to fail if not looked after properly!

*Update*
Anyway, update time.

I've been super busy at work again but managed to get the motor and mounts repainted. I'll let the pictures do the talking.







































Next up I'm going to start looking at some of the ancilleries while I wait for money to clear for my controller, charger and 2nd order of batteries - vacuum, heater, aircon, dcdc, throttle and how to keep the ECU happy etc. 

Cheers,

Mike


----------



## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

*Re: A Good Motor???*

Looks good, nice bold primary colours.

Your insurance is loads cheaper then mine for my diesel car! I must remove the high mileage and work cover now I don't need it.


----------



## josh-uk (Feb 5, 2012)

*Re: A Good Motor???*

That's cool, so i imagine the insurance is cheaper for a conversion than the stock rx8? Because that's quite low in comparison.

I'll be intrigued to find out how you fool the ecu, and I like the paint too btw.


----------



## skooler (Mar 26, 2011)

*Re: A Good Motor???*

Thanks both,

Yeah, it's a little cheaper than stock, I'd of payed about £1200 insurance to keep the wankel engine.

For fooling the ecu I plan to use a programmable microcontroller such as the arduino. I will have the tach/rpm as an input and replicate sensor readings as an output. Of course outputs will change at different RPMs.

The RX8 uses electric variable power steering. It becomes stiffer at higher speeds so this needs to have all the controller systems working as they would in the ICE.

I'm hoping the microcontroller will also drive the oem tach...

Cheers,

Mike


----------



## josh-uk (Feb 5, 2012)

*Re: A Good Motor???*

Interesting... what inputs did the ECU get from the ICE that would cause it to fail without it? (temp, rpm, oil level?) I don't know enough about them, should probably start reading up a bit lol.

I'm doing some calculations on savings with a converted RX8 as an example, compared with a stock RX8. Can I ask what Watt Hour/Mile you expect to achieve? I've guessed around 350wh/mile.

Cheers,
Josh


----------



## skooler (Mar 26, 2011)

*Re: A Good Motor???*



josh-uk said:


> Interesting... what inputs did the ECU get from the ICE that would cause it to fail without it? (temp, rpm, oil level?) I don't know enough about them, should probably start reading up a bit lol.
> 
> I'm doing some calculations on savings with a converted RX8 as an example, compared with a stock RX8. Can I ask what Watt Hour/Mile you expect to achieve? I've guessed around 350wh/mile.
> 
> ...


Hi Josh,

In all honesty I dont know! My plan was just to replicate the readings for all the sensors so that everything works as it would with the engine still installed.

I have some in depth manuals and a friend with a running rx8 so I will get some sample readings of what the outputs should be at different RPMs.

I did some heavy maths a while back (cant find it at the moment) and worked out about 290WH/mile so 350WH/mile from the wall would be about right.

What kind of specs are you looking at if you choose the RX8?

Cheers,

Mike


----------



## pavel174 (Mar 7, 2012)

*Re: A Good Motor???*



skooler said:


> Hi Josh,
> 
> In all honesty I dont know! My plan was just to replicate the readings for all the sensors so that everything works as it would with the engine still installed.
> 
> ...


Hi 
You can leave full-time fuel level sensor is simply mounted in place of the sensor in the tank.
Look here, this site http://zeva.com.au/Products/


----------



## josh-uk (Feb 5, 2012)

*Re: A Good Motor???*

For 350wh/mile, I figured that a 144v pack at 120ah each would give me just under 40 miles per charge at 80%DoD. Whether this would be enough for my needs, I dont know. But it would probably be best to go for 160ah batteries.

I would probably have a go at an open revolt controller, purely because its cheap. So 144v 500amp controller with 9" forklift motor, maybe bigger if it fits? (you say there's 3/4" between your motor and the nearby subframe?)

Btw, just saw a video by someone on this forum, thought the idea would suit your conversion perfectly: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G-fg7XfnzzM&feature=plcp&context=C3b38781UDOEgsToPDskLAUL0mWjJFu2zkOWT3uQK7

Josh.


----------



## skooler (Mar 26, 2011)

*Re: A Good Motor???*



josh-uk said:


> For 350wh/mile, I figured that a 144v pack at 120ah each would give me just under 40 miles per charge at 80%DoD. Whether this would be enough for my needs, I dont know. But it would probably be best to go for 160ah batteries.
> 
> I would probably have a go at an open revolt controller, purely because its cheap. So 144v 500amp controller with 9" forklift motor, maybe bigger if it fits? (you say there's 3/4" between your motor and the nearby subframe?)
> 
> ...


Hi josh,

I think an 11” will fit, as long as it's no longer than 18" long as it will hit the steering rack. I will take some pictures when I get home to show the clearance.

Yeah I like the EMW display. I have thought about buying a faulty satnav module for the rx8 on Ebay and building a tablet into it.

I would quite like to be able to control audio from it also.

Cheers,

Mike


----------



## pavel174 (Mar 7, 2012)

*Re: A Good Motor???*



skooler said:


> Hi josh,
> 
> I think an 11” will fit, as long as it's no longer than 18" long as it will hit the steering rack. I will take some pictures when I get home to show the clearance.
> 
> ...


You can buy a box instead of the standard 2 din magitolly and buy 2 Din Car DVD GPS on Android 2.3 can be bought here:
1) Car dvd: http://www.aliexpress.com/product-g...-PC-WITH-GPS-DVD-PLAYER-WIFI-wholesalers.html

2)Special Refitting Frame For mazda RX-8 
http://www.aliexpress.com/product-g...ng-Frame-For-mazda-RX-8-2009-wholesalers.html

sorry for the translation can be clumsy translate text using google translator.

In December, I bought an RX-8, will begin to alter the fall (first have to build a garage) is now starting to pick up the information to buy accessories.


----------



## josh-uk (Feb 5, 2012)

*Re: A Good Motor???*

I wouldn't be able to resist the bigger motor then probably 

That would make a very professional look, and controlling music and video etc. would be even cooler.


----------



## skooler (Mar 26, 2011)

*Re: A Good Motor???*

Hi all,

No update but a bit of planning and a slight change of direction (for the second time in this project!).

6 days a week I rarely travel further than 30-50 miles. One day of the week I drive 260 miles (130 each way)

I was trying to make my conversion cater for the long journey. This isnt very cost effective so I have changed my approach.

I also want to get on the road ASAP while futureproofing myself for any upgrades down the line sooooo:

*The Plan*

Controller - Soliton 1

Motor - Existing 9" Series wound milk float motor. May replace it with an 11" Kostov (maybe dual and replace the transmission) in the future.

Batteries - 150 * A123 20AH pouch cells (50S3P) to get going with (9.6KWH and ~25Miles Range). Will replace with 75 * 200AH Sinopoly cells once I have proven the concept

Charger - Looking at http://www.ev-power.eu/Chargers-TC-1-5-kW/ to get going. Will replace with the EMW 10KW open source charger in-line with the battery upgrade.

BMS - No bms with the A123 cells (will be keeping a close eye on them!) will then use mini-bms with the battery upgrade.

Heater - Initially a dash top plug in heater. will replace with an in line water heater before winter comes round.

Vacuum Pump - Saab 9-5 Vacuum Pump with an appropriate resivour.

Air Con - Will leave disconnected to start with. Will then add a compressor in the future.

On top of this i have a bit of work to get the throttle bodies signil input into a format the Soliton 1 understands, fooling the ECU (i'm thinking Arduino) and also a fuel gauge driver. probably the EMW solution.

*Battery Mounting*
I will post a thread in the battery section in the next few minutes 

Will EDIT and add a link. 


EDIT: heres the link http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showthread.php?p=290559#post290559

Cheers,

Mike


----------



## kakheath (Jan 7, 2012)

*Re: A Good Motor???*



skooler said:


> Batteries - 150 * A123 20AH pouch cells (50S3P) to get going with (9.6KWH and ~25Miles Range). Will replace with 75 * 200AH Sinopoly cells once I have proven the concept
> 
> BMS - No bms with the A123 cells (will be keeping a close eye on them!) will then use mini-bms with the battery upgrade.


Very interesting battery choice. I look forward to what you end up doing with them. Pack design, placement, etc. I'm still testing the capacities and IR of mine. So far, I've completed 243 cells. I plan to use 460 A123 20Ah pouch cells for a 92s5p pack.


----------



## skooler (Mar 26, 2011)

*Re: A Good Motor???*



kakheath said:


> Very interesting battery choice. I look forward to what you end up doing with them. Pack design, placement, etc. I'm still testing the capacities and IR of mine. So far, I've completed 243 cells. I plan to use 460 A123 20Ah pouch cells for a 92s5p pack.


Hi Kakheath,

Yeah it is interesting. It's not the approach I wanted to take but it gets things moving.

I've just added the link to the thread in the batteries subforum. My connection idea is in there.

http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showthread.php?p=290559#post290559

That pack of yours will fly! I just want to get things moving while avoiding lead, I still want full performance but limited range/costs.

I really look forward to seeing how you get on.

Cheers

Mike.


----------



## skooler (Mar 26, 2011)

*Re: A Good Motor???*

Hi All,

Question....

*Soliton1 or Soliton Junior?*

Soliton 1 is £2500, Junior is £1800 delivered with taxes - £700 difference

I'm thinking that my 9" motor will struggle with 1,000A so the extra 400Amps from the Soliton 1 wont be necessary?

Will the 600A Soliton Junior be enough or will it become a bottleneck in the drivetrain?

Basically, I dont want to spend £700 ($1200) extra if there will be no real benifit or all I will achieve is melting my motor! But.... I'm happy to spend the £700 extra if I get the extra performance.

Make sense?

Cheers,

Mike


----------



## skooler (Mar 26, 2011)

*Re: A Good Motor???*



gottdi said:


> What motor are you using again? If its a forklift motor it may not handle 1000 amps. If it's a Warp Motor it will handle 1000 amps. For most of the driving 600 amps are going to be more than enough. Peak amps is for acceleration and as long as your motor can handle 1000 amps then the daddy is a good one. If your going to use a voltage in the 120 to 156 volt range then have a look at the Synkromotive controller. Small light weight and packs a punch and is quite durable. Despite it's size it is hell for stout and priced well. It is another good controller on the market that is slow to catch but a worthy contender.
> 
> Pete


Hi Pete,

The motor is a 9 1/4" Series from a milk float! The nameplate was quite damaged, see posts #24-34 for the pictures and all the guts.

Because of this I have no Information and cant really compare i to another conversion.

If the 1000A will make a noticable difference, even if its just accellerating for a split second then I'll go for it. If not or it will melt my motor then I'll go for the junior.

The Synkromotive doesn't have the CE mark required in the UK so the only real contenders are the Soliton controllers.

Cheers,

Mike


----------



## favguy (May 2, 2008)

*Re: A Good Motor???*

Hi Mike,

Who is the CE mark required by? I'm not commenting on choice of controller, (I'm building Paul Holmes Kit, no CE there!) but to my knowledge there is no requirement for any sort of inspection as to weather all parts are CE marked or otherwise at present in the UK, just the usual MOT rules regarding basic road worthiness etc...?

I'm running a 9 1/4 inch forklift motor also in my build, I think you'll be brave to try and push 1000A through a forklift/milkfloat motor, it might stand it, but I'm too chicken to give mine over 500A lol!! 

You might also want to look at this page for a UK supplier of Solitons at lower cost than your import quotes:

http://www.jozztek.com/shop/14-controllers

I have no connection with the above, just spotted it whilst part hunting.

Paul


----------



## skooler (Mar 26, 2011)

*Re: A Good Motor???*



favguy said:


> Hi Mike,
> 
> Who is the CE mark required by? I'm not commenting on choice of controller, (I'm building Paul Holmes Kit, no CE there!) but to my knowledge there is no requirement for any sort of inspection as to weather all parts are CE marked or otherwise at present in the UK, just the usual MOT rules regarding basic road worthiness etc...?
> 
> ...


 
Hi Favguy,

I may be wrong here but from what I have googled the CE mark is not required however an EMC test is (in the UK).

EMC is covered by the CE mark so a CE controller will definately cover off the UK EMC requirement

I cant imagine it would be a problem with a one off conversion, but it is UK law since 1996. (what are the chances of it being found out that a component doesnt meet the EMC standards if there is no test/inspection for it!)

This article explains it quite well.

http://www.newelectronics.co.uk/ele...ngent-as-cars-feature-more-electronics/37061/

I would have thought that this would become a problem when more than 1 vehicle is being converted or the vehicle is intended to be sold on.

Like I said, I might be wrong!

Cheers,

Mike


----------



## MalcolmB (Jun 10, 2008)

*Re: A Good Motor???*

Hi Mike

I've never heard of anyone in the UK having to take an EMC test for a car conversion. It may be part of EU legislation, but it's not applied here, yet. Apart from anything else we don't have the necessary regional test facilities.

I know the Evnetics guys were looking at EMC testing a while back, but it's very expensive. Are you sure they have a CE mark? I don't see it mentioned on their site.

I'd also recommend Jozztek, it's run by Jozzer, who's a member here. He's very helpful and trustworthy.


----------



## skooler (Mar 26, 2011)

*Re: A Good Motor???*



MalcolmB said:


> Hi Mike
> 
> I've never heard of anyone in the UK having to take an EMC test for a car conversion. It may be part of EU legislation, but it's not applied here, yet. Apart from anything else we don't have the necessary regional test facilities.
> 
> ...


Hi Malcolm

I've not heard of it either.

I contacted Kostov to try and get a price for a Soliton and they stated they no longer stock them due to lack of a CE mark.

I then contacted Evnetics direct who said that http://www.rebbl.nl/ have gone to the effort of getting the Solitons CE certified. It costs an additional 600EUR to have the controller modified and get the certificate.

I think its one of these things that we are supposed to do but no-one actually does.

Cheers,

Mike


----------



## MalcolmB (Jun 10, 2008)

*Re: A Good Motor???*

It's great that an EMC compliant controller is available, as it's bound to become a UK requirement sooner or later. I doubt they can make it a retroactive requirement though, so in the meantime I'd save your cash unless you're planning a very slow build ... like uhh me


----------



## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

*Re: A Good Motor???*



MalcolmB said:


> ...I've never heard of anyone in the UK having to take an EMC test for a car conversion. It may be part of EU legislation, but it's not applied here, yet. Apart from anything else we don't have the necessary regional test facilities.


Me either. So far it seems that the UK is more than willing to turn a blind eye to EMC compliance. The nations who are full signatories to the relevant directive - 2004/104/EC - have started to take it very seriously. Cars that have been converted using non-compliant components are being summarily rejected by the EU's equivalent of the DOT (e.g. - RDW in the Netherlands).



MalcolmB said:


> I know the Evnetics guys were looking at EMC testing a while back, but it's very expensive. Are you sure they have a CE mark? I don't see it mentioned on their site.


Our European agent, Rebbl, paid for the testing and modification of the Soliton1 and Soliton Jr in exchange for the exclusive right to sell them in the EU proper (ie - the same nations as above). They are the ones that get to apply the CE mark to the product, not us. We must only agree to not change the internal design from the "as-tested" configuration.

A year ago I would have said that the UK will eventually cave in and join the rest of the merry idiots in approving 2004/104/EC but now I am not so sure. You guys look to be off the hook for awhile longer yet - enjoy it while it lasts, because all future products from Evnetics *will* be designed for CE compliance and that does add quite a chunk to the price of the product for no obvious benefit to the customer, I'm afraid.


----------



## skooler (Mar 26, 2011)

*Re: A Good Motor???*



MalcolmB said:


> It's great that an EMC compliant controller is available, as it's bound to become a UK requirement sooner or later. I doubt they can make it a retroactive requirement though, so in the meantime I'd save your cash unless you're planning a very slow build ... like uhh me


Agreed. 

If for whatever reason it does become a requirement the controller can always be sent back to Rebbl and have the EMC package fitted.

*On a side note...* After speaking with major (the motor guru here), I have decided to go for the Soliton Junior controller. The Soliton1 is overkill and the £700 could be better spent on other parts of the conversion. 

I can always upgrade in the future if I change my motor.

This should mean that with my motor, battery and controller. I should be able to push out about 150HP peak including battery sag. Probably about 120HP after efficiency losses.

120HP at the rear wheels with all the torque from 0RPM should be quite nippy. The ICE produced 190HP but with very little torque.

Cheers

Mike


----------



## favguy (May 2, 2008)

*Re: A Good Motor???*

This EMC thing depreses me! Mine is a slow build, but I'm now looking to get it done by Autumn at the latest. If I can't afford the lithium I want by then, I'll use 48v worth of crappy starter batteries just so I can get to 30 mph and the couple of miles each way to and from my local MOT station. At least then I can get the car on the road, legal and get the class changed to electric. Should be safe then, as new legislation and EU crap/test requirements ramp up, they don't usually become retrospective on existing correctly registered UK cars.

I see some of our european friends on here having to jump through hoops and incurring huge costs just to get conversions approved/legal for use and it makes me cringe! 

If existing components that are already expensive due to the low volume nature of the EV hobby get even more expensive, we may as well give up and go buy a used leaf!!


----------



## skooler (Mar 26, 2011)

*Re: A Good Motor???*

Favguy, I know, things need to come down in price! Although I don't mind paying for quality!

Jeffrey, what kind of increase in price are you looking at for building in the EMC stuff? I assume this will be on your future products?

Mini update....

Ordered my controller (Soliton Jr) from Rebbl. Service seems great so far.

Also had a spending spree and also ordered:

-5m of 50mm2 orange cable. Was going to go for 70mm but seems overkill?

-Anderson connector

-Hydraulic Crimper

-20 cable lugs

-2 ev 200 contractors (1 for pack 1 for dc dc)

-Bussman 400a fuse

-Bushman fuse holder 

-Chennic Dcdc converter 35 amps

Still to order:

Batteries

Vacuum pump etc

12v battery (got some 60ah Sinopoly cells en route)

BMS

Charger

Ev display

Does anyone in the UK need a fuseholder? I could only get a pack of three!

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/350245641...WNX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1497.l2649#ht_500wt_732

I'm thinking of a way to use the anderson connector as a disconnect. Would it be possible to tie this in to the bonnet release to avoid changing anything in the cabin? Dangerous?

It's gna be like Christmas!

Cheers,

Mike


----------



## jackbauer (Jan 12, 2008)

*Re: A Good Motor???*

Mind my asking where you got the orange cable?


----------



## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

*Re: A Good Motor???*



skooler said:


> ...Jeffrey, what kind of increase in price are you looking at for building in the EMC stuff? I assume this will be on your future products?...


Yeah, just the future products. Rebbl is keeping mum on the modifications they did to our controllers to get them through EMC testing but in my experience it is a *lot* cheaper to design for compliance in the first place, rather than go back and kludge an existing product so it will comply.

That said, I have no idea what the additional parts cost with be for future products as I haven't finished designing any of them yet!


----------



## skooler (Mar 26, 2011)

*Re: A Good Motor???*



jackbauer said:


> Mind my asking where you got the orange cable?


Hi Jack,

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=230742853348#ht_1277wt_852

It was the cheapest I could find that was double insulated and has decent feedback.

Cheers,

Mike


----------



## favguy (May 2, 2008)

*Re: A Good Motor???*

Hi Mike,

Are you sure 50mm is big enough? I'd have thought you'd need 70mm (500A rated) as you can pull up to 600A with the Jnr. Or am I missing something?


----------



## skooler (Mar 26, 2011)

*Re: A Good Motor???*



favguy said:


> Hi Mike,
> 
> Are you sure 50mm is big enough? I'd have thought you'd need 70mm (500A rated) as you can pull up to 600A with the Jnr. Or am I missing something?


No I'm not sure!

I was originally going to go with 70mm cable then changed my mind again and again!

My logic is that 50mm is rated ~350a.

Continuous current at high speed should be <200A

The maximum I will draw 600 amps is for a few seconds. In this time the cable will cope.

It's the same logic for me only choosing a 400A fuse.

I dont claim to know what I'm talking about!

This is open for debate and it's not too late to change

Cheers,

Mike


----------



## MalcolmB (Jun 10, 2008)

*Re: A Good Motor???*

I made the same choice for the mini. Max battery current will be around 600A, and average current around 100A, so I'm using 50mm2 cable and a 300A fuse. I could probably go down to 35mm2 without overheating becoming a real concern. From reading the experiences of others it's more important to make sure you have good connections and properly crimped lugs.


----------



## skooler (Mar 26, 2011)

*Re: A Good Motor???*



MalcolmB said:


> I made the same choice for the mini. Max battery current will be around 600A, and average current around 100A, so I'm using 50mm2 cable and a 300A fuse. I could probably go down to 35mm2 without overheating becoming a real concern. From reading the experiences of others it's more important to make sure you have good connections and properly crimped lugs.


 
Malcomb, exactly my thinking!

Hence why I bought an 8 ton hydraulic crimper . If anyone in the UK needs to borrow it send me a PM , I'd rather see people make good connections than not!

The cable sizing is still up for debate if anybody thinks differently.

Cheers

Mike


----------



## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

*Re: A Good Motor???*

I have one too, it has dies from 16sqmm to 120sqmm.


----------



## favguy (May 2, 2008)

*Re: A Good Motor???*

Mike,

lol! I was sort of hoping you had a definitive reason for going with 50mm! I too can't decide between 50mm or 70mm.

I think the rating on 50mm is 360A on shorter runs, if this is continuous use, and as it's originally for welding plant use where on site runs from plant to gun are probably much longer than the short runs we use in our EV's, it may well be fine for the short bursts at 500A/600A it'll see in EV use, I for one just don't know for sure 

As for the 400A fuse, I expect you'll be fine with that.

Paul


----------



## Salty9 (Jul 13, 2009)

*Re: A Good Motor???*



jackbauer said:


> Mind my asking where you got the orange cable?


Off topic but might be of interest to someone. When wiring my house I found that it meets the NEC to change the color of a wire by wrapping tape of the appropriate color around the wire close to the connection point. This may not meet EV codes or visual aesthetics but would remind the builder of HV.


----------



## Spyder.ev (Sep 6, 2011)

*Re: A Good Motor???*

Hi mike,
How's the build coming on ?
I'm still awaiting most of my parts, the motor has arrived and the adaptor is in customs  All other parts I think will ship this week.
I bought 70mm2 cable as I have a heavy right foot a lot of the time 
I bought from Oxford welding supplies but just after I bought they doubled price so I was very lucky.
Will try and get some of my welding done this week and update my build,
Have you got your test batteries yet ?
Also been looking at interfacing to my ECU and Recharge car is doing some good stuff will be keeping in touch with them.
As for vacuum pump I bought Audi 1 from eBay seems to work ok and not too noisy.
Anyway keep us updated thanks.


----------



## skooler (Mar 26, 2011)

*Re: A Good Motor???*



Spyder.ev said:


> Hi mike,
> How's the build coming on ?
> I'm still awaiting most of my parts, the motor has arrived and the adaptor is in customs  All other parts I think will ship this week.
> I bought 70mm2 cable as I have a heavy right foot a lot of the time
> ...


Not much action if I'm honest!

I have purchased a Soliton Jr, loads of cabling, fuses etc.

I'm starting to wish I went for the 70mm cable now. I can always replace it if it gets too warm for comfort

Test cells are still en-route. Will post my findings once they arrive. I delayed them due to an order for 60AH cells for a quad bike conversion in spain; it made sense to combine shipping at the time. In hindsight it has cost just as much to ship them togethor as it would seperately so it just delayed the test cells!

Steve at Jozztek has kindly offered to cycle test one of them 

I like the stuff that recharge car is doing. I planned to use an Arduino and just output what the sensor signals as required.

Which pump did you go for?

I am looking at the 2 below:

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/320839648289?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1423.l2649

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/290686676224?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:VRI&_trksid=p3984.m1423.l2661

Due to the question mark over the a123 poch cells at present and me wanting to de-risk any significant spending. I'm going to buy some super cheap lead acid to get the car moving. Its only costing £800 for 12x 125 AH deep cycle cells (18KWH & 300KG!) but it takes the risk out of spending 10's of thousands on lithium to find out something else stops the car from working!

Because its only £800 its no major loss if it doesnt work properly or needs replacing after 6 months!

http://www.batterymegastore.co.uk/product/DC31/

I will replace with the 70* Sinopoly 200AH cells as soon as I am happy that the rest of the vehicle is working 

Cheers,

Mike


----------



## skooler (Mar 26, 2011)

*Re: A Good Motor???*

Hi all,





A bit of a teaser for progress below 

Will post properly later.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VwMD...DvjVQa1PpcFP93IEgATRMklnRWd2ammzZrRhTn4UyBkI=


----------



## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

*Re: A Good Motor???*

Hey, good video, and not sideways!

Well done, another great step forward.


----------



## skooler (Mar 26, 2011)

*Re: A Good Motor???*

Hi All,

Apologies for the delay in getting updates written up. I have had a bit of time off work, some invaluable help from a friend ("pass me the ratchet", "hold this") and have been cracking on with the car... So I think I owe the forum an update or two!

*Controller*
My Soliton arrived a couple of weeks ago.

My plan for mounting was to use 2 lengths of 25mm alumininium box section accross the engine bay. The area that the soliton doess not use then becomes the component shelf. Its also quite handy that it provides a good, stable chassis ground.

Pictures below.




















*RPM Sensor*

Basically a Spinning disc with 2 protuding bolts hooked up to the 'tailshaft' using a proximity sensor to count pulses per revolution. So umbelievably simple!

The thread on the RPM Sensor is below:
http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showthread.php?t=71903

*Accellerator*
The accellerator pedal got me into a bit of a pickle! I was getting so frustrated with it. thankfully a friend realised that my multimeter was only reading resistance one way around (WTF!!!) thread on that is below.

http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showthread.php?t=72343

*12V Ignition Supply*

I tapped into the 12V switched accessory supply and pulled a wire into the compenet shelf. This is currently only powering the Soliton but I will wire it to a 40A relay to switch power dirrectly from the DCDC converter and accessory battery. This will be used to power all the other bits such as contactors, controller, motor cooling water cooling, arduino(?) etc.

*Test Run*

We wired up 3 old 12v starters in series for 36v got up to about 10MPH but could feel the Soliton limiting the power. got the setting wrong! by the time I could change the settings and have another go the batteries were flat!

Again I'll let the pictures talk.




























Cheers,

Mike


----------



## Spyder.ev (Sep 6, 2011)

*Re: A Good Motor???*

Hi Mike,
When you sorted out your meter problems what were the pedal readings? Are they hall effect or pots?
Great video by the way, what was it like to drive when you sorted out the setup on the controller?
I hope to be putting my motor in this week and will update my thread.

Nick


----------



## skooler (Mar 26, 2011)

*Re: A Good Motor???*

A bit more...

I made a start on my battery boxes. This has taken a whole lot longer than I anticipated! as an example I guessed at 2 hours to cut out the boot (trunk) floor; it took me 8 hours!

I was also let down by a friend who offered to do the welding, plan B was another friend thats busy for the next few weeks so I went with plan C... buy a welder and do it myself!

I used the 4" grinder to cut out the boot floor. Most of the metalwork was only single skinned but around the chassis rails it was triple skinned! To make it worse the towing eye thread on the back is mounted to the bottom of the boot floor which was also triple skinned.

Before.









Shows the anti-roll bar rear sub-frame and towing eye.









Towing eye.









The plan is for there to be 2 battery boxes, one in the rear and one behind the front bumper. when I upgrade to lithium I will create 2 more where the fuel tank once was. 

The rear box needs to be installed from under the car as the boot hatch is quite small. I like the idea of using gravity as much as possible so that there is no way of the box dropping out the bottom... so it has been made in 2 parts. the actual box and what it secures to.


The part the box secures to is a sqare made from 25mm x 3mm angle and it simply fits into the hole I cut earlier. It has a large overlap so that it cannot physically fit through the hole. it will then be bolted directly to the chassis rails.











The top has been ground off tbut the inside of the joint hasent. It welded suprisingly well considering its a stick welder!.









The bottom half is the actual box. This will bolt into the above piece.










The reason that there is no joint t the top of the box on the right hand side is to avoid fouling the rear subframe as shown in the previouse pictures.











I purchased a Clark 160N Arc Welder with all the accessories loads of rods etc for well under £100 It has been really good and highly reccomend it for the occasional user like me. Its much better than the mig I borrowed for the engine mounts.

One issue that I am having is that the ant-roll bar fouls the battery box in its orinal location. The plan is to remove the brackets that hold the bushes and make a new bracket on the bottom of the battery box.

Oh yeah... did I mention....




















:-D

I will post again tomorrow or Friday. The plan is to tidy up and finish up the rear box, sort out the new boot floor and make a start on the front box over the next couple of days. I want a drive on 144V by COP Monday 

Cheers and thanks for reading!

Mike

EDIT:

P.S. Admins / Mods.... Can we get rid of the 10 image limit? I have had to exclude quite a lot of images that others may find useful/interesting. Is bandwidth really that bigger problem for people?

For anyone wanting to view my imageshack profile is below.

http://imageshack.us/homepage/?user=skooler91


----------



## skooler (Mar 26, 2011)

*Re: A Good Motor???*



Spyder.ev said:


> Hi Mike,
> When you sorted out your meter problems what were the pedal readings? Are they hall effect or pots?
> Great video by the way, what was it like to drive when you sorted out the setup on the controller?
> I hope to be putting my motor in this week and will update my thread.
> ...


Hi Nick,

I think the readings are in the other thread, "pedal pickle" or something like that! 

http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums...ad.php?t=72343

It was all within the 0-5K range and the 3 pins I used wer about 4.2V (pedal off) to 1.5V (pedal to the floor) from memory.

In all honesty I dont know what type of pedal it is! I assume its hall effect as there is no mechanical link between the pedal and the wiring.

I tried to steal the signal from the throttle body (as shown on EVTV last Friday coincidently!) but the ECU wont give a signal without loads of engine signals! If you manage to suss it out then please let me know!

The car was quite sluggish on the first run with the controller, the one in the video, one of the old batterys was giving a negative voltage after! needless to say it wont hold a charge!

Realised I had set the controller limits far too high which was limiting power to the motor. Changed it all earlier and had a go on 24 volts with the new batteries (just to move the car 30M across the yard ) got it up to 18MPH on our little road, with a sixth of the total power available!

It felt quite torquey but was very sluggish, but I'm not expecting much at 24V and 125AH!

Once he batteries are in hopefully I can post another video of some wheelies, doughnuts and wheelspins  

If its of any use, I tapped the wires going into the ECU from the pedal to drive the Soliton. see pics below.



















Cheers,

Mike


----------



## skooler (Mar 26, 2011)

*Re: A Good Motor???*



zsnemeth said:


> Hi Mike,
> 
> Have You had time to test those batteries? I'm curious, 'coz i'm planning to use the same 125Ah deep cycles in a hybrid LA/A123 battery pack build in my MGB.
> I hope they are perform acceptable...


Hi zsnemeth,

I haven't used them properly yet as I'm still waiting for my charger.

I have had a 36v run just to move the car around.

Ask me the same question in a few weeks!

Will post a propped update later.

Cheers,

Mike


----------



## skooler (Mar 26, 2011)

*Re: A Good Motor???*

Hi All, 
Long time no update, over a month!
I've made significant progress on the car and have lots of pictures. I'll try and break the update down over a few posts for easier reading and allow for me to upload more than 10 photos.
To summarise:

Rear battery box is complete.
Front battery box is complete (2 parts).
Battery cabling is in.
Had a test drive on 144v – controller limited to 80V, 600A - impressive results.
In my defence for the 'apparent' lack of progress, this is the first time that I have worked with metal by myself and may as well of been the first time I have used a welder! so it has been a bit of a learning curve to say the least.
I've also had some real help from a friend which has been incredibly useful!
*Rear Battery Box*

The last time I posted, the box was in two parts, a frame that sits in the cutout in the boot/trunk floor and a frame that bolts to it from underneath the car.

To continue....

I drilled 8mm holes around the top of the bottom part and matching holes in the top part. The purpose of this bolt the2 parts to bolt together in the car. I then inserted the nuts and bolts, tightened nd welded the nuts to the cage.



















I then bolted it up in the car. I had a bit of a problem with the anti roll bar. In its original location it would have intrued into the battery box significantly so it has been twisted 90 degrees. the bushes are now located on the bottom of the battery box rather than the side of the subframe.



















To line the battery boxes and protect against moisture I am using several layers of PVC sheet. Its cheap, easy to work with and provides ok protection. before anyone says anything these batteries will likely be replaced within a year.



















The base of the battery box is 2 layers of 12mm plywood. the top layer has strips of rubber to help absorb any vibrations.










Finally, I made a perspex cover, this has a steel border which neatly joins the carpet to the cover/box. it is clamped down using mm bolts that bolt into captive nuts in the battery box below it.










I was hoping to fit 6 batteries in but could only get 5 in. the rear subfram protrudes into the box slighly near to the wheels. its not an issue as I have easily fitted the other 7 in the front which is probably closer to the original balance

I still need to build a battery clamp for the rear box. that is on my list of things for tomorrow so I'll post another update for that

next up - front box


----------



## skooler (Mar 26, 2011)

*Re: A Good Motor???*

*Front (lower) Battery box*

I stupidly forgot to take a picture of the front box before installing it 

Basically its an L shape hat bolts to the bottom of the fromt subframe underneath the steering rack. It then turns 90 degrees under the frontmost crossmember and bolts to it. There are two 'rails' that the batteries sit on, 4 in total.

The below picture shows how the battery rack bolts to the front subframe. I have used 10mm threaded bar with 2 nuts ether side nd lots of loctite. The bolts travel through holes that already existed behind the steering rack mounts so nothing on the cars structure has been modified.



















The other side bolts to the front crossmember. 2 pieces of angled steel were bolted to the crossmember (one above and one below) to give something solid to bolt the box to.










a picture of the box installed









The below picture tries to show the rails the batteries sit on. you can just about see the bolts at the back.









Half populated









To add some flex to the front (lower) box I made some brackets from flat bar.










This shows how both top and bottom mounts on the front crossmember.

also the first fit of the PVC sheet.









Next up the upper box.


----------



## skooler (Mar 26, 2011)

*Re: A Good Motor???*

*Front (upper) Battery Box*

This ones nice and simple!

Above the lower box I built a tray to hold 3 more batteries. it mounts to the silver bolts seen on the crossmember in the picture above.
The other side mounts above the brackets that held the radiators in and bolts through the slam panel

The tray fresh from being painted! the gaps between the batteries allows for clamps/straps to be added later on.












The original radiator bracket on the slam panel.











A bolt in the crossmember above the steering rack. nuts have been added to get the tray level with the radiator brackets.











Installed





































*144v test drive*
I mnaged to get a test drive on 144v (limited to 80v in the controller) all I have to say is WOW. It's incredibly quick off the line and has unbelievable torque. Unfortunately, whenever I plant my foot on the accellerator the clutch slips but I have got the ramp rate set to 25000A/S in the Soliton!

I will have a play with the soliton tomorrow and get a video for tomorrow evening.

Next on my todo list is to sort out battery clamps, get a video on 144v! and wiring wiring wiring (charger dcdc etc).

I have also ordered a ZEVA fuel guage driver. I get intermittent response from EMW about the android dash. Not to say I wont buy one in the future - I just dont like chasing people when I'm busy! Plus 2 fuel guages are better than one 

Thanks for reading.

Anything that I've done that looks stupid? Any comments etc?

I will try and post again tomorrow

Cheers,

Mike


----------



## SandRailEV (May 11, 2012)

*Re: A Good Motor???*

What did you decide for your 1200 watt stereo? Actually, I don't think 1200 watt stereo will be noticeable in an EV. Thaqt 1200 watts is peak power and average power will be about 1/3 that when cranked up to full volume. I don't think you will survive full volume; more like 1/3rd, thus battery drain will be on the order of maybe 100 watts average or less... 

Nice job so far, good luck....


----------



## skooler (Mar 26, 2011)

*Re: A Good Motor???*



SandRailEV said:


> What did you decide for your 1200 watt stereo? Actually, I don't think 1200 watt stereo will be noticeable in an EV. Thaqt 1200 watts is peak power and average power will be about 1/3 that when cranked up to full volume. I don't think you will survive full volume; more like 1/3rd, thus battery drain will be on the order of maybe 100 watts average or less...
> 
> Nice job so far, good luck....


Thanks 

1200 watts was what I had in my old ICE car and it was 1200w RMS, peak was 4.8KW!  I never went over a quarter volume. Anyway, that was a couple of years ago and in hindsight is ridiculous, expensive and complete overkill!

The RX8 has a 9 speaker 'Bose' system fitted as standard... That should hopefully fulfill my audio requirements!

Info here http://www.mazda.co.uk/orphan/rx-8_old/rx-8-coupe/bose-sound-system/

*Mini Update*

I made some progress with battery clamps yesterday. I made and painted them yesterday and will fit them today. Hopefully post an update with pictures tonight.

I also got a friend to take a video while I was driving the car in various gears. It really shows the acelleration (bearing in mind I have limited the motor to 80V in the controller, that means have another ~70V to play with!)

Unfortunately the clutch is still slipping in higher gears. The video shows it brilliantly (you can hear it). Hopefully he will post it later today. If anyone has any ideas about the clutch i would be really grateful!

Cheers,

Mike


----------



## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

*Re: A Good Motor???*



skooler said:


> ....
> Unfortunately the clutch is still slipping in higher gears. The video shows it brilliantly (you can hear it). Hopefully he will post it later today. If anyone has any ideas about the clutch i would be really grateful!
> ...


Yeah, lower the motor current slew rate! A setting of 25kA/s means you hit 600A in 24ms. That results in a much faster increase in torque than any part of your car's drivetrain ever expected to see. It's like hitting the clutch with a hammer every time you apply throttle (even if you aren't flooring it - any increase in torque will happen almost instantaneously).

1000A/s to 2000A/s is more typical for a crisp but not jumpy throttle response. Why they heck did you kick it up to 25kA/s in the first place?!?


----------



## skooler (Mar 26, 2011)

*Re: A Good Motor???*



Tesseract said:


> Yeah, lower the motor current slew rate! A setting of 25kA/s means you hit 600A in 24ms. That results in a much faster increase in torque than any part of your car's drivetrain ever expected to see. It's like hitting the clutch with a hammer every time you apply throttle (even if you aren't flooring it - any increase in torque will happen almost instantaneously).
> 
> 1000A/s to 2000A/s is more typical for a crisp but not jumpy throttle response. Why they heck did you kick it up to 25kA/s in the first place?!?


Hi Jeffrey,

I thought that was the most likely thing for it to be!

It still feels like it is slipping far to easily though.

I've always assumed that the controller will apply torque in line with the throttle input? So if I feather the throttle not all of the torque will be applied?

I meant to set the slew rate to 2500A/S (closer to your suggestion) I was checking throught the controller config file for obvious mistakes before I posted the last update (I dont always have a laptop with the car). I will take my laptop with me today and have a play with the settings and see what happens.

Thanks for your help  

Cheers

Mike


----------



## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

*Re: A Good Motor???*



skooler said:


> ..
> [the clutch] still feels like it is slipping far to easily though.


Oh, it might very well be, in which case you should suspect the clutch! There are all sorts of problems that could cause a slipping clutch - oil/grease on the friction disc, too much gap between the disc and pressure plate, improperly adjusted slave/master cylinder, etc... 



skooler said:


> I've always assumed that the controller will apply torque in line with the throttle input? So if I feather the throttle not all of the torque will be applied?


Yes, that is correct, but running at the fastest slew rate requires exaggerated care with the throttle - the controller just feels twitchy. That might be desirable in racing, but it's not so welcome when trying, e.g., to maneuver around a parking lot (especially when trying to dodge pensioners at Tesco's - ).

You might also find it enlightening to graph throttle current vs. motor current when you intentionally floor the throttle. I bet you throttle goes from 0 to 100% in less than 2 logging intervals (ie - 20ms).


----------



## somanywelps (Jan 25, 2012)

*Re: A Good Motor???*



Tesseract said:


> Yes, that is correct, but running at the fastest slew rate requires exaggerated care with the throttle - the controller just feels twitchy. That might be desirable in racing, but it's not so welcome when trying, e.g., to maneuver around a parking lot (especially when trying to dodge pensioners at Tesco's - ).
> 
> You might also find it enlightening to graph throttle current vs. motor current when you intentionally floor the throttle. I bet you throttle goes from 0 to 100% in less than 2 logging intervals (ie - 20ms).


I drove one of valerun's E46s with a soliton 1. I knew the throttle response was fast when it's at maximum slew rate, but that scared the shit out of me. 

Also it was hard to feather because I got kind of a rowing motion as the acceleration pushed me back just a tiny bit which reduced acceleration and made my foot go forward just a tiny bit so it was super jumpy.  

NOTHING LIKE AN ICE.


----------



## kakheath (Jan 7, 2012)

*Re: A Good Motor???*



skooler said:


> *144v test drive*
> I mnaged to get a test drive on 144v (limited to 80v in the controller) all I have to say is WOW. It's incredibly quick off the line and has unbelievable torque. Unfortunately, whenever I plant my foot on the accellerator the clutch slips but I have got the ramp rate set to 25000A/S in the Soliton!
> 
> I will have a play with the soliton tomorrow and get a video for tomorrow evening.
> ...


I'm very happy to see all the progress. Thanks for sharing all the great photos. I had similar issues with my trunk box hitting the torsion bar and body mounts. I ended up trimming the body mounts and then boxing them back in to protect the integrity of the mounts. For the torsion bars, I cut off the brackets and effectively shaved off over 3/4" and welded them back in the same spot. Now they almost touch the rear crossmember. I'll post some pix next weekend when I get back to the shop. I made my frame out of aluminum angle and plan to enclose them with aluminum sheet metal. I thought I might put an acrylic top on the box so the batteries can be seen.

How did you interface the throttle pedal and the soliton? Any issues or advice when I go to set mine up? Are you planning to have AC? What about safety stops inside the car?


----------



## skooler (Mar 26, 2011)

*Re: A Good Motor???*



kakheath said:


> I'm very happy to see all the progress. Thanks for sharing all the great photos. I had similar issues with my trunk box hitting the torsion bar and body mounts. I ended up trimming the body mounts and then boxing them back in to protect the integrity of the mounts. For the torsion bars, I cut off the brackets and effectively shaved off over 3/4" and welded them back in the same spot. Now they almost touch the rear crossmember. I'll post some pix next weekend when I get back to the shop. I made my frame out of aluminum angle and plan to enclose them with aluminum sheet metal. I thought I might put an acrylic top on the box so the batteries can be seen.
> 
> How did you interface the throttle pedal and the soliton? Any issues or advice when I go to set mine up? Are you planning to have AC? What about safety stops inside the car?


Hi Kakheath,

Photo's are what interest m the most so I always try and provide lots! make sure you do too! 

When I upgrade to lithium I will rebuild my boxes with lightweight Ali.

The pedal is discussed in the below thread. Only thing I will be changing is that I'll add an operational amplifier as discussed on EVTV so that the ECU and the soliton both get the same signal.

The only issue I had with it was with a dodgey multimeter confusing me! There are two different sensors on the pedal, the first 3 pins are one sensor, the next 3 the other. Let me know if you need any more help with it 

http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showthread.php?t=72343


I have left everything in the car for AC except for the compressor but wont be installing anything yet. It doesnt really get too warm in th UK! 

I still havent worked out safety stops/disconnects. I was waiting for ideas from you and Nick (SpyderEV)! the last thing I want to do is lash something together and it not work!

I have been thinking about using a handbrake assembly in the drivers footwell which will pull a cable when operated that in turn disconnects an anderson connector. the ratchet on the handbrake will then stop any possibility of the connector reconnecting, is re-usable many times and also good for disonnecting the pack for maintenance.

Thoughts?

Cheers,

Mike


----------



## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

*Re: A Good Motor???*

The handbrake lever to Anderson connector is a good idea, it should work fine. jackbauer did a short video of pulling apart a connection I think. He had a welder connected to it to simulate pack voltage and current.
Here it is.





If you put it in the middle of your pack then it splits the pack nicely and make it safer connecting up or maintaining the +ve and -ve terminals and connections from the pack to the rest of the installation.

Even on my 48V tractor pack I have an isolator to split it into two 24v sections. It means I am not connecting live ends to the main isolator controller terminals.


----------



## skooler (Mar 26, 2011)

*Re: A Good Motor???*

Hi All,

I'm overdue an update... again .

Firstly a quick video a friend took while I tried various gears.. It shows the clutch slip issue in 4th and 5th. Its now almost completely sorted by changing the ramp rate in the Soliton Junior.

I'm quite impressed with the cars performance with the Junior. When the video was taken the controller was limited to 80V and 600A





 
I havent really made much progress. I have had loads on at work and had virtually no free time; but I have managed to get the battery clamps in, DCDC wired up (sort of), accessory battery in (and out) an bought most of the parts for my brake vacuum system.

*Battery Clamps*

I have 3 subpacks: 5 batteries in the boot/trunk, 4 in the front lower pack and 3 in the front upper pack. Both front subpacks have the batteries sitting on rails the rear pack is just an open box that the batteries sit in.

For the front packs, I welded nuts in the base between cells and inserted a threaded bar slightly taller than the batteries. A piece of flat bar with angled ends the drops on top of the threaded bar and is tightened to provide the clamping force.

bottom clamp



























top clamp




























The rear box uses length of angled steel across the length of the batteries. A curved right angle made from flat bar is then welded to each end. These then have length of flat bar welded to them to allow it to bolt into the battery box. the idea is that the right angled flat bar gives a slight amount of flex. Its kinda hard to explain so here are the pictures!



















Installed - you can see how the bolts from the battery box are utilised.









Will finnish this update in another post because I have got to the 10 image limit.

Cheers

Mike


----------



## skooler (Mar 26, 2011)

*Re: A Good Motor???*

I also managed to get my DCDC converter and 12v accessory battery in and then back out 

I purchased an el-cheapo Chennic DCDC converter. The instructions were not the clearest to say the least!. It has 2 HV+ inputs, one switched and one not - connected to the pack at all times. I couldnt see why it needed the always on connection so I wired it with the other supply staight into the contactor I am using to switch power to the converter. The idea behind this being It can then be disconnected and not become a parasitic load on the main pack. All appeared to be working perfectly.

The 12V battery is made from four Sinopoly 60AH (B) cells in series. These are clamped togethor using 3 pieces of flat bar, 1 angled bar and 4 lengths of treaded bar, the angled steel then bolts onto the component shelf. 

Quite usefully, the RX8's original battery connector fits straight onto the Sinopoly cells.

Pics below.














































*The Problem*
The car stood for about 9 days with no input from me whatsoever (I had a busy week at work) on Friday night when I went to work on the car and found the 12v battery to be completely flat. All cells below 1v, one not even registering a voltage with my multimeter another at 0.02.

After some troubleshooting it turns out that the chennic DCDC converter (which was disconnected from the HV side) had a 1/2amp draw from the 12v battery. I can only assume it was because the 'always connected' HV+ was disconnected. Once reconnected the parasitic draw goes away. Odd.

I have managed to get all the cells back to 3.2v and holding a charge. shows that these sinopoly cells are quite robust.

I used the 3.3v Rail on a PC PSU to charge the cells. I couldnt get a single cell charger but this seems to have worked well.

Needless to say I have now wired my DCDC as per the instructions!

Over the Jubilee Bank holiday I want to get my vacuum pump mounted and installed and my emergency disconnect.

I also need to work out how to power the electric steering on the RX8. anybody got any ideas?

Cheers,

Mike


----------



## somanywelps (Jan 25, 2012)

*Re: A Good Motor???*



skooler said:


> I also need to work out how to power the electric steering on the RX8. anybody got any ideas?


I don't know RX8's; can you be more specific?


----------



## skooler (Mar 26, 2011)

*Re: A Good Motor???*



somanywelps said:


> I don't know RX8's; can you be more specific?


I can,

Basically, Its got electronic power steerting. which adjusts at diffferent speeds. its controlled by the ECU and by the looks of it CANBUS.

Was sent this by a mod on the UK RX8 owners club.
https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B3K6pcEsTIkkUTNWNVJQM0RuNHM/edit?pli=1

I'm thinking the last resort of buying an arduino mega and fooling each of the ECUs inputs. but that seems like a lot of work just to get the steering working!


----------



## skooler (Mar 26, 2011)

*Re: A Good Motor???*



skooler said:


> I can,
> 
> Basically, Its got electronic power steerting. which adjusts at diffferent speeds. its controlled by the ECU and by the looks of it CANBUS.
> 
> ...


Oh!

I also sent an ebay message to the person selling the below conversion.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/221040077021

Seems as though he has got it working.


----------



## Spyder.ev (Sep 6, 2011)

*Re: A Good Motor???*

Hi Mike,
How goes the build whats the latest?
Did you ever sort out the power steering?
Im currently still waiting for an update for my controller so i can actually run the car, Still lots of other things to sort but its getting ther.
What way do you intend to go to link to the ecu ? are you still thinking adruino?
anyway let us know whats new.
cheers

nick


----------



## skooler (Mar 26, 2011)

*Re: A Good Motor???*



Spyder.ev said:


> Hi Mike,
> How goes the build whats the latest?
> Did you ever sort out the power steering?
> Im currently still waiting for an update for my controller so i can actually run the car, Still lots of other things to sort but its getting ther.
> ...


Hi Nick,

Hows yours coming on? Any thoughts on batteries?

I really need to update this thread! Will do so after this with pics etc.
The car has been ready to MOT for the last 2 weeks. I have been waiting for somebody to check it over structurally to make sure my welding and fabrication is up to scratch as the MOT probably wont look at this in too much depth. Theres also a few little bits I dont have the kit for that I'll get him to do.

Other than that I need to mount the charger in front of the brake servo - which needs the brake lines from the master cylinder re-routed slightly and sort out a heater.

I took a step back on the ECU side of things. All I (we) actually need it to do is provide CANbus signals to the EPS controller and control the ABS and traction control (if keeping it).

So rather than trying to fool the ECU I am going to just mimick the output to the EPS controller. I am talking to somebody who knows how to do this - Basically, I am going to throw money at the problem until its sorted!

Happy to share the output on how to do it once it is working.

ABS and taction control can wait for now

Arduino to mimmick the ECU inputs is plan B at the moment.

I looked at putting the eccentric shaft wheel and sensor on the back of the motor but there wasnt enough room.

*Updates*
I'll pop up some pics and explanations on what I've done since the last update. off the top of my head its

Vacuum system
12v wiring
charger
Frame leak
Motor Cooling
Zeva Fuel Gauge
Tidy/Cleanup and finished pics
 
Cheers,

Mike


----------



## skooler (Mar 26, 2011)

*Re: A Good Motor???*

GRRR 3 attemps to post this!!! laptop kept refreshng the page for no apparent reason > : (

Update time 

Quite a lot has happened so I'll break it don into seperate posts to avoid hitting the picture limit!

Brake Vacuum System

I was really worried about the vacuum system. After a bit of research it turned out to be really simple!










The parts for the brake vacuum system are above:
Original Servo Pipe and non return valve (10mm internal bore)
2m of 10mm internal bore vacuum hose
50cm of 6mm internal bore vacuum hose
vacuum resivour from audi A8 (6mm barb fitting)
Vacuum pump from Saab 9-5 diesel (10mm barb fitting)
Vacuum switch (1/8th NPT Fitting)
Vacuum guage (1/8th NPT Fitting)
2 x 10mm, 10mm, 10mm barb T piece
1 x 10mm, 6mm, 10mm barbT piece
2x 1/8th NPT Couplers (female to famale)
2x 1/8th NPT to 10mm Barb Fittings (usually used as fuel ppe unions)
Jubilee Clips
PTFE Tape

the components are connected as below:

Vac Pump-----T--------T-----------T----->>one way>>----servo
l l l
resivour guage switch


I made up a bracket for the pump to try and minimize noise. It is located next to the traction motor on the subframe crossmember. I dont have a picture of it installed but here is the space!










And the bracket.










And some other pics of how it is installed:



























The above shows how i converted a 1/8th NPT to a 10mm barb.



















The way I currently have the pump setup is to pump to 25" murcury, stay on for a few seconds more, then only pump again when vacuum drops below 25" murcury.


I will explain how this is achieved below.

*12V S**ystems*

The basic layout of my 12v setup is really simple. A single 8Guage cable from the battery positive goes into the fuse block on the RHS and is distributed accordingly to all fuseholders in that block. the first contains a 30A fuse which in turn connects to a relay controlled by the accessory relay in the original fusebox (spliced) and only comes on at stage 2 on the ignition switch.

This relay then connects to the fuseblock on the left hand side to provide an ignition live fuse block.

*12v vacuum wiring*
For the vacuum system, a 10 amp fuse is installed on the permanent live side which goes through a relay to the vacuum pump. this relay is controlled from a 2.5A fused line from the ignition fuseblock which passes through the vacuum switch and then controls the relay.

This means the pump can only be on when the ignition is live and the vacuum switch is closed. the vacuum switch is closed below 25" murcury and open above 25" murcury.

This works except for a slight leak in the vacuum system (hardly anything and probably through the pump) means that the witch cycles between open and closed several times a second once 25" murcury is achieved. this makes the relay switch several times a second and makes the pump turn on and off several times a second.

Obviously this is not good for wear an tear. My solution was to add a 22,000uF, 16V capacitor on the control side of the relay (in parellel with it, on the same wire as the switch) this holds the relay open for 2-3 seconds after the vacuum switch has opened meaning that about 28-29" murcury is achieved. the vacuum system then takes a couple of minutes to leak back below 25" murcury and come back on, and back up to 28-29" murcury. It works really well.

The picture below shows this layout quit well.

*Other 12v wiring*
The soliton controller is connected to the ignition side fuseblock using a 5A fuse.

The motor cooling (will explain in the next post) is connected to a relay powered by the permenant live fuseblock with a 10A fuse and contolled by the water cooling output on the Soliton.

This means that the motor cooling only comes on when the soliton is warm (orignially tested as 65 C but i think this may have dropped?). my thinking behind this is that the motor will normally only be hot hen the controller is under load. What I diddnt want is the motor cooling to come on unless the vehicle was actually moving as its not too quiet (drowns out the noise of the vac pump!)

I am using the zeva fuel guage. this is powered by a single 5A fuse from the permenant liv fuseblock.

It was complicated but logical to setup and works well (as guaranteed). The main reason being that the RX8s original fuel tank had 2 sender units. I tried a few different size resistors and shorts on the original wiring with little luck. In the end I ended up ripping up the original fuel tank and measuring the resistance values. Luckily, both sender units put out the same values (~80ohms full - ~350ohms empty)

I connected the fuel guage to the original wiring and nothing worked. adding a 10 ohm resistor to each return wire on the original wiring made the oem guage read full.












12v wiring and vacuum fully installed and tidied up.


----------



## skooler (Mar 26, 2011)

*Re: A Good Motor???*

Continued....

*Charger*

I ordered a 1.5KW charger from TC Charger a few months ago. I believe this is the factory where Elcon and chennic Chargers are made.

Its prgrammed for 144v, 125AH Lead Acid (my exact pack) 

The reasoning for not purchasing a larger charger is that I want to run it off a standard UK 3 pin socket without worrying about tripping the electrics.

I will also upgrade to lithium in the not too distant future and diddnt want to buy an expensive charger just to replace it in < a year.

It is also CE marked which was part of my decision.










It will be installed in the area to the left of the controller. jJst needs some re-routing of brake lines.










I have installed 3x 6mm cables to the filler cap. I originally intended to use a commando socket but decided to use J1772 as we have just had a station installed at work.

I purchased a J1772 side connector (male lead) with 10M of cable from modular EV power. I'll simpy stick a UK 3 Pin Socket or commando socket on the end of it for normal charging.

I was going to purchase the alluminium billet connector from the EVTV website for $200 and $65 shipping + customs (seems fair). They then took nearly a week to actually send me the paypal invoice, in this time the price shot up by $50 ($315 plus customs). I wont pay that out of principle so I am going elsewhere. It will probably delay me being able to plug in at work but thats life.

*Frame Leak*
On a couple of occasions, while leaning on the bodywork and touching the negative side of the pack (400A fuse) i got a slight tingle. this caused me to investigat with a meter. To my horror, 80V(ish volts withot the 10k resister below) showed up on the meter between the fuse and the frame.

Afte speaking with Tesseract (evnetics) I managed to chace it down to the motor. The leak itself is only a couple of Milliamps and fairly harmless. just not expected!

Evnetics have since put up a FAQ section on their site which explains how I chased it down. Video and link to evnetics below.

http://www.evnetics.com/support/

The video shows the voltage on the digital meter between the 12v battery negative (frame) through a 10k resistor and to the frame of the car.

You can then see how the voltage drops when a load is applied, in this case, a fluke continuity tester

The voltage drops to 0V when the controller is turned on.

It also slowly drops (as shown) when the controller is off.

The voltage is at its higest when the controller has been running and is then switched off.





 
Cheers,

Mike


----------



## skooler (Mar 26, 2011)

*Re: A Good Motor???*

Continued...

*Motor Cooling*

My method of cooling the motor will probably be contraversial. Its kinda experimental. It works but will it last!?

If it doesnt last then I'll go for the more conventional modified turbo.

Firstly, the reason for external cooling: A heavy handed friend.










We were stripping down the motor, while I was making a cupa, he decided using a prybar on the orignial cast fan would be a good way of releasing the rotatig part from the bearings. hmmmmm!

My idea was to use 6 fans from a dell server. They are 60mmx 60mm x about 40mm. and push out 40-60CFMs each.

They are positioned around the brushes and push air pack thrugh the motor and out through the original intake.

I'll let the pictures show how it was made as its fairly simple. I am using 12mm ply.


















































































It bolts to the motor using the two 10mm bolts shown at the bottom of the above pcture.

There was not enough clearance between the motor and component shelf to add a fan so that one has been blanked off to improve cooling (hence only 3 pairs of fans)

It is switched on and off using the water cooling output on the Soliton.

It realy works. After a heavy drive you can feel the heat blowing from the bottom of the car. Need to get my thermal gun on it. It pulls between 6 and 8Amps and has a 10 amp fuse fitted

Cheers,

Mike


----------



## skooler (Mar 26, 2011)

*Re: A Good Motor???*

Continued....

This is how the car stands now.

I am waiting for a family friend to check it over from a mechanical point of view before I put it in for an MOT. He will mainly be looking at my welding to make sure the batteries and motor aren't going to drop out of the bottom!

It will mean driving the car 7 miles on trade plates which will be its first major run, although I have totted up 6 miles in the yard over the last month or so!!

He will also be re-routing the brake lines from the master cylinder to make way for the charger.

Other than that the car needs a new windscreen due to a slowly moving crack right up the middle, probably some new tyres in the next few months (any recommendations? looking at falken 452sand the brake pads could do with replacing.

I also need to install a J1772 charge socket once it arrives. Im presently just using the charger loose!

Finaly, the car has been treated to a well deserved wash and vacuum.

Pics:









































































And an added safety feature!!


















Comments and feedback welcomed : )

Cheers,

Mike


----------



## TTmartin (Feb 7, 2012)

*Re: A Good Motor???*

All looking good, I wish I was that far down the line with mine.

On the Brake Vacuum System, the normal way to control the switching of the pump would be to have a vacuum switch with differential/hysteresis so you can set pump on and pump off to a reasonably wide band so, effectively you get a few pumps of the brake before the pumps cuts in again, other wise it's on/off/on all the time when braking.
(vacuum tank size allowing of coarse)
I have two switches on my system, one with no differential this gives me my low vacuum warning LED and buzzer.the other has adjustable differential which is used for pump control, I'm still not sure what the best setting is for this yet but at the moment I've set the low vac warning to come in at 10inHg from one switch. My pump cuts in at 15inHg and shuts off at 22inHg from the other switch, this gives me 3 to 4 brake applications before pump cuts back in.
Do you know what the ideal vacuum is for a car brake servo? I've not a clue.


----------



## skooler (Mar 26, 2011)

*Re: A Good Motor???*

Hi Martin,

Yeah I did think about using 2 switches but the added complication and cost (£45 a switch) put me off. The capacitor works perfectly and holds the switch open for 2-3 seconds every time.

A friend told me that 18-22 inches murcury is normal but a little more is not a problem.

So I have set the low cutoff to 25" murcury (pump is always on below that if the ignition is on) the capicitor holds it open to 28-29" murcury.

I like the idea of having an LED. I may add something to show when the vacuum switch is closed....

Keep up the work with the TT. looking forward to seeing it finished 

Cheers

Mike



TTmartin said:


> All looking good, I wish I was that far down the line with mine.
> 
> On the Brake Vacuum System, the normal way to control the switching of the pump would be to have a vacuum switch with differential/hysteresis so you can set pump on and pump off to a reasonably wide band so, effectively you get a few pumps of the brake before the pumps cuts in again, other wise it's on/off/on all the time when braking.
> (vacuum tank size allowing of coarse)
> ...


----------



## Ace_bridger (Nov 22, 2011)

Looking good Mike, I'm right behind you!!

Are you MOT'd yet or is that coming up?

I'm hoping to do a dry run at 24V with controller and TPS all rigged up!! If you never hear from me again then you'll know something went wrong!!

I wish my car was as pretty as yours!!


----------



## skooler (Mar 26, 2011)

Ace_bridger said:


> Looking good Mike, I'm right behind you!!
> 
> Are you MOT'd yet or is that coming up?
> 
> ...


Slow down! Don't overtake me!

I'm not Mot'd but very tempted to chuck it in today or tomorrow and see what happens!

I'm still waiting for the family friend to check it over(2 and a half weeks of waiting now! Grrrr!

I am promised that it'll be this weekend.

Good to see yours coming on. Will be good to see it finished in the next few weeks ;-)

Yeah I'm kinda happy I used the rx8 instead of the corsa (see 1st post) for looks. Cost me about £400 for the RX8 after selling all the unused parts!

But I think the corsa would be more suited to my components. Also lighter and less electrics to deal with!

If I was doing it again I'd probably of saved the RX8 for my second conversion and done it properly.

It's been a good learning curve though and I think it's good value for the £6,000 it has cost me, some of that being tools.

Anyway, let's get them finished and get them to Santa pod!.


----------



## Ace_bridger (Nov 22, 2011)

I don't think I'm well placed to overtake but I'll definately be ready for Santa Pod next year (unless I kill myself this weekend when I do the first test with the controller and throttle rigged up!!).

Just a thought, have you found affordable insurance. I had a quote from Pluginsure of £340 but they'd need photos and description of the build and specification. That didn't seem too steep.

How is the performance of the RX8 with your combo of motor, controller and batteries? I'm a little jealous of your Soliton Jnr.

Have you done full throttle yet?


----------



## Ace_bridger (Nov 22, 2011)

I just went through your whole (well almost all) build thread and all I can say is well done. There's a lot of work there and it looks like you've done it well...only you know where the cut corners are!!

Do you need to water those batteries? I need to water my Trojans which will be somewhat difficult but I have some ideas about how to reach the more inaccessible cells.

Good luck with the MOT and all that.

Adam


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## skooler (Mar 26, 2011)

I haven't had a huge look into insurance yet.

I got a £600 quote from pluginsure but thats it. £600 is quite cheap for somebody my age so I'm not complaining. I pay about £650 on my 1.6l vectra.

If they need photo's and a description perhaps we should link to our build threads!

Performance is OK considering its so heavy (1300-1500KG). It was never supposed to be a sports car but acceleration is impressive, don't know about top end.I've only got about 100 yards to play with but it easily gets up to 30 before I have to brake (and it really does stop!).

I have done full throttle (motor limited to 108V and 600A) it spins the wheels in 3rd off the line.I cant really say much more on performance until I drive it properly.

Its been a fun project. I had very little mechanical experience and Iq think I've done it to an OK finish. 

If I were to do it again I'd of spent a little more on a Motor and controller so I dont have to upgrade them. probably a K11a and a Soliton1. £2,000 more for some REAL performance!.

Corners have been cut... the biggest being the batteries!!! for me lead is fine for my local diving requirements If I go out of tow then it tends to be over 100 miles away, which would cost a fortune in lithium! Lead will do for now 

Another corner cut is the battery boxes. but considering i'll replace the batteries soon I don't see it as a huge issue.

No need to water the batteries. They are Sealed Calcium - not sure what relevance the calcium is but it means they charge to more like 15v.

I'm not expecting much from them, a years service and I will be happy.

Thanks for the good luck. I cant wait to get it on the road on the trade plates on Saturday!

Cheers,

Mike


----------



## skooler (Mar 26, 2011)

Quick update.

The car had its first major run today.

It was being moved from where I built it to a small garage 7 miles away to be checked over before the MOT.

The route contained some town driving, hills, country roads and A roads.

I didn't drive it as I'm not currently insured but the family friend (mentioned before) who will be checking it over is insured on trade plates so he drove.

I sat in the passenger seat with logger running on a laptop.

Overall I am very impressed with performance. Its the smoothest ride I have ever had! We had it up to ~60MPH with no trouble whatsoever. As an example, when driving at 40MPH in 5th, if the accellerator is pressed it just goes. 

It pulls off in 2nd or 3rd off the line with no trouble at all. I find 1st very jolty, perhaps too much torque? Any ideas?.

The Soliton and motor stayed cool (soliton didn't go above 45C).

Motor cooling came on, I left it running after the drive and a warm, but not hot blow can be felt from the motor exhaust hole.

At 50 MPH, in 5th gear, on the flat it pulls 150amps. Not too bad  and hopefully lower gears will be even more efficient.

Controller (motor side) was limited to 120v and 600A.

One thing I'm not so happy with, but kind of expected is the lack of torque at higher RPM. after about 3000RPM there is virtually no torque at all. A gear change is essential to continue accelleration.

Another small problem is that the tach seems to work fine, then either stop working or shoot up. I have 11,000 RPM readings in logger! I'll try changing the distance on the pickup and see if that helps 

It covered the 7 miles fine, no noticable loss in performnce. I'd guess at about 15% SoC loss,giving about 30 miles of usable range.

Other than that, Brakes were really good, they have barely been used over the last year but mad the car stop well. I may put some new discs and pads on in the not too distant future.

Suspension did the job. I was a little worried there was a little too much weight, but it handled fine.

The rest off the normal car stuff all worked.

If anybody fancies looking through a 6MB log file I'll happily post it up!

Before it was picked up I made up a few charge leads. Cant get photos up at the moment but I made up a J1772 to 32a commando socket and a 32A commando socket to UK 3 pin. This will be used for normal charging without a charge station. I have ordered the J1772 Ali billet connector from modular EV power to go in the filler cap. Service from them is excellent.

We have a J1772 charge station at work, hence why I'm installing a J1772 inlet on the car. Otherwise I'd just use a commando socket.

Will post some pictures tommorow.


----------



## MalcolmB (Jun 10, 2008)

Hi Mike

Just wanted to say congratulations on getting the RX8 up and running. I'm impressed with how quickly you've managed to get this on the road, especially as converting a newer car means even more challenges. Looks like you've done a neat job. I'm looking forward to hearing more on performance as you bump up the voltage.

Cheers, Malcolm


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## Ace_bridger (Nov 22, 2011)

Awesome news, well done.

I would suggest not using 1st gear. Your motor gives soo much torque the low ratio of 1st isnt needed...just that old low torque ICE did!!

I would avoid pulling away in the higher gears as you'll be putting a great deal of torque through the drive train and the drive shafts may not like it long term.

I had a Fiat 126 once which lost first gear so I used 2nd to pull away but the drive shafts soon gave up!! The RX8 build quality is a little better than the 126 though!!

Many congrats and welll done.

Next job? Getting it waxed for Santa Pod!!!


----------



## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

That is great news, another EV on the road and a very nice conversion.

Well done!

You can ignore 1st gear and probably 4th and 5th gear in most cases.

The motor, as said, has too much torque for 1st but also runs most efficiently when it is running at its highest rpm. So moving off in 2nd and running high rpm in 3rd should cover most needs.


----------



## skooler (Mar 26, 2011)

Thanks for the feedback.

It does need a bit of a wax once it's through the MOT. 

It'll be up on the ramp right now. Having my welding scrutinized! Then if all is good, MOT tomorrow 

I wasn't driving so I wasn't selecting the gears. 150amps at 50 in 5th seems reasonable. I really want to see what it pulls at the same speed in 3rd now!

My next job will be having a drive over to DVLA Worcester... They won't accept the change in fuel type until the tax class has been changed. And I can't change the tax class until it has an MOT! Grrrrr! Then I'll be working out the tach pickup problems. It was a little bodged so my own fault anyway! After that will be installing my shiny new power steering get controller so it's not a workout to drive it. More on that next weekend when it arrives. Oh and the J1772 inlet and a heater, so it's not quite finished as such!

Next project:

Few potential things lined up...

Lithium upgrade

Motor/ controller upgrade

Ride on mower

Ebike (thinking something like a cbr 400)

A friend that helped alot is thinking about converting a land Rover.

I might go for a UK electric land speed record attempt... Won't be this year though.

Might do something fun/ridiculous with the corsa at the start of this thread!

Thanks all,

A lot of learning, inspiration and advice has been taken from these forums. A big Thankyou to everyone 

Cheers,
Mike


----------



## favguy (May 2, 2008)

Hi Mike,

Congrats on the progress, great stuff. Don't know if it will simplify things for you with the DVLA, but it might be worth taxing the car as an ICE once MOT'd, then after this, sending in the V5 along with build photo's and a letter from the MOT garage, or other garage confirming they have witnessed the car is solely electric drive now.

This should get you a revised V5, refund of tax (you will lose a month though!) and new zero duty tax disk without the need for a visit to the DVLA office.

Look forward to hearing your progress which ever way you do it, good luck with the MOT


----------



## dougingraham (Jul 26, 2011)

skooler said:


> It pulls off in 2nd or 3rd off the line with no trouble at all. I find 1st very jolty, perhaps too much torque? Any ideas?.
> 
> One thing I'm not so happy with, but kind of expected is the lack of torque at higher RPM. after about 3000RPM there is virtually no torque at all. A gear change is essential to continue accelleration.
> 
> ...


Congratulations!

Your only fix for making 1st gear useful is to change the final drive ratio. It is probably the stock 4.78 with a first gear of 3.82 giving a reduction of 18.26 which is a lot. It looks like you could replace the ring and pinion with a Mazda factory one at ratios of 4.44, 4.30, 4.10 and 3.909. Changing to 3.909 would five a final ratio of 14.93. Since your current second gear is 10.80 this really only gets you half way there. It might be enough to be worth doing. Mazdatrix shows $868 for the set. You probably have Mazda specialty hop up shops you can check with and maybe a lower ratio is available.

You can somewhat cure the 3000RPM issue with higher voltage. I don't remember what you are running but when you change to Lithium consider running 98 cells with the Soliton and setting the motor voltage to the maximum your brushes can stand. In my case this is 192v because I switched to the Helwig H-60 brushes. This will just widen the useful band a little. It probably will cease to be an issue once you get used to driving the car.

I am looking forward to the pictures.


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## electricmini (Oct 21, 2008)

Hey Mike,

Congrats, it's looking really good!
I enjoyed seeing all the pics too, you've put a lot of effort into that car & it shows.

I wish I could get the Supra to perform properly - I'm thinking the autobox is the source of my troubles. I think I'll just override the computer and wire the solenoids direct to some switches so I can manually control which gear it's in.

Hope you're enjoying the car - mine's MOT has run out, and I haven't got time to get it done before going on vacation next week!

Richard


----------



## skooler (Mar 26, 2011)

Thanks again all,

I haven't heard anything yet, so I assume its good news 

Some pictures of the J1772 - 32A commando male and the 32A commando female to 13A UK 3 pin leads I made yesterday

I purchased the J1772 connector with cable and connector from Modular EV power. David Kerzel was a pleasure to deal with. The lead comes with 10 meters of 70 amp cable in orange.










The other side of the J1772 cable, the two extra wires are simply taped up and left inside the commando socket housing, as they will not be required.









Finally, I made a 13A UK 3 pin to 32a commando female lead. it uses 16A cable and is 1m long. It has a rebberised UK socket that is supposedley super robust 









There are two reasons that I used the commando socket. Firstly, 70Amp cable doesnt really fit into a UK 3 pin socket so its a good way of stepping down.

Secondly, a lot of hotels etc with public charging in a nearby town I sometimes stay at have a 32A commando sockets available outside but not a J1772.

Will update as soon as I get more news 

Cheers,

Mike


----------



## Spyder.ev (Sep 6, 2011)

Hi Mike, 
Lots of questions......
How did the MOT go ?
Really happy to see the progress youve done,
What are you intending to do for the Power steering?
What have you done to the wiring to the ecu?
What about lights on Dashboard Do they all work correctly ?
Did you have to get OBDII to bluetooth device to reset faults?
Im slipping behind, still havent fitted front battery box, and i have a bit of reworking to do on my wiring to the WARP drive controller so i can control and talk to it through my phone but hopefully will be there soon,
Again great news on your build really hope it passed MOT.
cheers
Nick


----------



## skooler (Mar 26, 2011)

Spyder.ev said:


> Hi Mike,
> Lots of questions......
> How did the MOT go ?
> Really happy to see the progress youve done,
> ...


Hi Nick,

Still not MOT'd....
I have been waiting for the family friend to look over the car, which he started yesterday. So far so good; apparently the welding on the battery boxes and mounts are more than good enough (my biggest fear!)

The only MOT failure identified on the car is with the ABS light (not the ABS itself), apparently the lack of power steering sends an error that triggers the ABS and Traction Control warnings to come on also.

Which brings me onto the power steering! I have paid someone to build me a controller for the power steering. It works by spoofing the signals already going into the power steering controller from the ECU. It is due to arrive early next week. If it all goes well I'm happy to send you one .

Wiring going to the ECU is existent! I stripped down the harness and have only kept one of the three connectors that go into the ECU's enclosure, there are effectively three looms taped together. (it connects to the chassis loom connector in the same enclosure as the ECU). All that it provides are the four sensor wires from the gearbox, for reverse lights etc.

As for dash lights etc.
I have a plan to make the ABS light go away for the MOT. The dash is driven by CAN-BUS, the plan is to get the same chap I am using for the power steering to build a box that will interface the Soliton with the original dash to drive the OEM gauges. The outputs and error light combinations can be used to drive different lights on the dash.

I'm hoping to speak of more progress in the next few days 

Any thoughts on batteries for yours yet Nick?

Cheers,

Mike


----------



## skooler (Mar 26, 2011)

Quick update:

I need to have a little bit of work done to pass the MOT, most of it non EV related....




8 new brake pads
3 new tyres (old ones are virtually on the legal limit)
Nearside Rear ABS wire has broken
Warning lights:



ABS Light
Power Steering Light
Traction Control Light
Apparently replacing/fixing the ABS wire should fix the ABS and traction control faults.


My power steering controller is due to arrive today.


Is anybody aware of anything that can make these lights go away? The annoying thing is, the ABS actually works 


Cheers,


Mike


----------



## kakheath (Jan 7, 2012)

skooler said:


> I have paid someone to build me a controller for the power steering. It works by spoofing the signals already going into the power steering controller from the ECU. It is due to arrive early next week. If it all goes well I'm happy to send you one .
> 
> Wiring going to the ECU is existent! I stripped down the harness and have only kept one of the three connectors that go into the ECU's enclosure, there are effectively three looms taped together. (it connects to the chassis loom connector in the same enclosure as the ECU). All that it provides are the four sensor wires from the gearbox, for reverse lights etc.
> 
> ...


If the power steering controller works, I'd be very interested in one as well. 

I've been on the road now as of July 3. I'm still working out some bugs. My dash looks like a Christmas tree. I think just about every light imaginable is lit up.  I do not have power steering right now and do not appear to be getting power to the heavy gray connector half way between the battery positive and the power steering unit. What does this controller you speak of actually do? How does it work?


----------



## skooler (Mar 26, 2011)

kakheath said:


> If the power steering controller works, I'd be very interested in one as well.
> 
> I've been on the road now as of July 3. I'm still working out some bugs. My dash looks like a Christmas tree. I think just about every light imaginable is lit up.  I do not have power steering right now and do not appear to be getting power to the heavy gray connector half way between the battery positive and the power steering unit. What does this controller you speak of actually do? How does it work?


Your on the road!!! Wheres the update!?

It spoofs the signals that would normally be supplied from the ECU to the EPS controller via canbus. The lack of the engine speed (eccentric/crankshaft sensor) causes the EPS to shut off as it isnt recieving the correct signals.

Mine arrived today so I'll let you know how I get on 

Cheers,

Mike


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## Ziggythewiz (May 16, 2010)

skooler said:


> Is anybody aware of anything that can make these lights go away?


Snip snip!! Or I had an old station wagon with a strategically placed compass over the CEL.


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## Ace_bridger (Nov 22, 2011)

A piece of electrical tape suck over the light? 



skooler said:


> Quick update:
> 
> Is anybody aware of anything that can make these lights go away? The annoying thing is, the ABS actually works


----------



## skooler (Mar 26, 2011)

New MOT rules require that the light comes on and then goes out....


----------



## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

skooler said:


> New MOT rules require that the light comes on and then goes out....


How about wiring it to the ERR output of your Soliton Jr? That will blink the CEL at startup then go out as long as there aren't any errors (like pack voltage out of range or throttle not at zero position, etc.).


----------



## skooler (Mar 26, 2011)

Tesseract said:


> How about wiring it to the ERR output of your Soliton Jr? That will blink the CEL at startup then go out as long as there aren't any errors (like pack voltage out of range or throttle not at zero position, etc.).


That could work.

The issue I have is that the dash is a sealed unit and is fed all of the signals from the ECU via canbus.

I don't really want to chop and change the internals. Although I could probably break a few tracks and solder wires going to the lights in question.

At the moment the CEL is an advisory, ABS light a failure, Traction control light is a failure and power steering light is a failure.

I was thinking more along the lines of stopping the ECU from reporting the errors...

Plan B is to try and interrupt the CANBUS signals going to the dash and control the lights myself. Allowing different error messages from the soliton to be shown as different lights - e.g. CEL on startup, then batytery light may come on for low battery etc.

Plan C is to rip the dash apart and get soldering!

Has anybody got any ideas how I can reprogram the ECU?Or should i spend my efforts on plan B?


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## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

skooler said:


> ...
> At the moment the CEL is an advisory, ABS light a failure, Traction control light is a failure and power steering light is a failure.
> 
> I was thinking more along the lines of stopping the ECU from reporting the errors...


Unless you are an excellent mechanic - at least for the RX-8 - then your chances are slim-to-none, as we Yanks say, of either solving why the CEL is lit or reprogramming the ECU to not register those particular errors.

The throttle is reduced by the ABS and traction control modules when either system is active in some cars, so that may be the source of the warnings for those two. The power steering warning is probably because the OEM crankshaft sender isn't connected. 

Do you have the factory wiring diagram for the car? Alldata has reasonable prices on that sort of thing.


----------



## skooler (Mar 26, 2011)

Tesseract said:


> Unless you are an excellent mechanic - at least for the RX-8 - then your chances are slim-to-none, as we Yanks say, of either solving why the CEL is lit or reprogramming the ECU to not register those particular errors.
> 
> The throttle is reduced by the ABS and traction control modules when either system is active in some cars, so that may be the source of the warnings for those two. The power steering warning is probably because the OEM crankshaft sender isn't connected.
> 
> Do you have the factory wiring diagram for the car? Alldata has reasonable prices on that sort of thing.


Thats kinda what I thought. Its probably a lot of work and wont provide anything else extra like plan b.

Interrupting the CANbus signals it is then! At least that way I can use the other lights for various errors reported 

I'll probably work with the chap who built me my power steering controller to develop it.

Jeffrey, 

Does the Soliton logging protocol transmit the errors in a form that is easy to manipulate (a code?) or is it plain text such as in the logfiles?

I'm thinking that a magic box can sit between the soliton's ethernet port and the dash CANbus input...

Yes I have the factory manual. there's a link to it a few pages back.

Cheers,

Mike


----------



## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

skooler said:


> ...
> Jeffrey,
> 
> Does the Soliton logging protocol transmit the errors in a form that is easy to manipulate (a code?) or is it plain text such as in the logfiles?
> ...


That's more Qer's domain than mine; I just designed the hardware. The logging data is in UDP format, so not plain text. The logger program we supply basically just converts the UDP data from the ethernet port to a tab delimited text file (for easy importation into a spreadsheet program). That is the sum total of my knowledge of that part of the controller.


----------



## skooler (Mar 26, 2011)

Tesseract said:


> That's more Qer's domain than mine; I just designed the hardware. The logging data is in UDP format, so not plain text. The logger program we supply basically just converts the UDP data from the ethernet port to a tab delimited text file (for easy importation into a spreadsheet program). That is the sum total of my knowledge of that part of the controller.


Thanks Jeffrey,

I was hoping it was something like that  should be relatively easy to get something to work 

Looks as though I have an interesting mini project coming up!

Cheers,

Mike


----------



## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

skooler said:


> ...
> Looks as though I have an interesting mini project coming up!
> ...


We encourage this sort of thing - it's why we provide the source code for logger, for example - but just be aware that we have - and will again - change the logging data format as well as the content (ie - the numerical and verbose error codes, etc...).


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## Ace_bridger (Nov 22, 2011)

Mike,

If you just want to get around the light problem for the MOT couldn't you just knock up a little timer circuit which has the lamp coming on when the ignition is switch on and then stays on for a few secs before switching off?

The discussion above clearly give you more functionality and info about the state of the controller but...


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## skooler (Mar 26, 2011)

Ace_bridger said:


> Mike,
> 
> If you just want to get around the light problem for the MOT couldn't you just knock up a little timer circuit which has the lamp coming on when the ignition is switch on and then stays on for a few secs before switching off?
> 
> The discussion above clearly give you more functionality and info about the state of the controller but...


Could do but that would mean chopping up the dash...

Its over £200 for a new one!

And rather than create a circuit I could just tap into the airbag light which does exactly what i want the others to do...

I'll see if I can get it through the MOT as is. Like I say, the ABS actually works! it just the light  Just needs a tester that will use common sense rather than go exactly to the book.


----------



## kakheath (Jan 7, 2012)

skooler said:


> It spoofs the signals that would normally be supplied from the ECU to the EPS controller via canbus. The lack of the engine speed (eccentric/crankshaft sensor) causes the EPS to shut off as it isnt recieving the correct signals.
> 
> Mine arrived today so I'll let you know how I get on


Got PS yet?


----------



## kakheath (Jan 7, 2012)

Could you mount the eccentric crankshaft sensor so that it picks up the front motor shaft rotation? Would that get it going again? 

I'm gonna have to pull the ICE harness this weekend and start playing with all those missing sensors. My dash is too colorful right now. The only thing that works is the speedo and odometer.


----------



## skooler (Mar 26, 2011)

Not working yet...

I'm on holiday atm so haven't had chance to have a propper look.

I have installed my controller but think I'm having the common issues with this the original wiring.

http://www.rx8club.com/trouble-shoo...failure-i-know-its-been-covered-107481/page1/

I will have another look when I get back. The plan will be to completely rebuild the harness between the ps controller and the torque sensor. Right now it has some iffy resistance values.

Cheers,

Mike


----------



## skooler (Mar 26, 2011)

Quick update, I'll post a full update later on...

To summarise:



Power steering now works
Dash lights (minus CEL) all work as expected
MOT Booked for Saturday
Only issue now is that the vacuum switch isn't doing a very good job of switching, Needs sending back!


Will post some pictures, descriptions etc later.


Cheers,




Mike


----------



## MalcolmB (Jun 10, 2008)

skooler said:


> Only issue now is that the vacuum switch isn't doing a very good job of switching


Is that the one I suggested Mike? I've only tested mine briefly in the car, but it seems to work fine so far.


----------



## skooler (Mar 26, 2011)

MalcolmB said:


> Is that the one I suggested Mike? I've only tested mine briefly in the car, but it seems to work fine so far.


 
Yes it is, cost about £40 if I remember correctly.

Can you remember where it was from? (I dont want to dig through bank statements!)

It worked perfectly to start with, switching off at 24"Hg. Now it either doesn't switch off, leaving the vacuum pump running. but also more worryingly, it sometimes doesnt come on at all.

Giving it a shake will often make it come on or go off so something isn't right!

I'm going to get it swapped once I remember where its from as its not safe!

I'd recommend testing yours thoroughly....


----------



## MalcolmB (Jun 10, 2008)

That's a bit worrying. I chose that switch because I thought it would be a reliable automotive quality component. I'm sure you're doing this already, but just want to double-check: are you using it to switch the pump via a relay?

This was the seller: http://www.simtekuk.co.uk/www.simtekuk.co.uk/info.php?p=8


----------



## skooler (Mar 26, 2011)

MalcolmB said:


> That's a bit worrying. I chose that switch because I thought it would be a reliable automotive quality component. I'm sure you're doing this already, but just want to double-check: are you using it to switch the pump via a relay?
> 
> This was the seller: http://www.simtekuk.co.uk/www.simtekuk.co.uk/info.php?p=8


Yep I'm using a relay.

Will give them a call and see what thy say 

Cheers,

Mike


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## Ace_bridger (Nov 22, 2011)

Good luck for saturday!!!

My vacuum switch is wired on the negative of the relay, as instructed by the suppliers. If yours is switching on the positive side then perhaps it has burnt out.

I didn't twig that wiring on the positive might cause a problem.

My kit is from Stainless Steel Brake Company (SSBC).

Good luck.

Adam


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## MalcolmB (Jun 10, 2008)

Ace_bridger said:


> My vacuum switch is wired on the negative of the relay


Why would that make a difference, are there other components inside apart from the switch itself?


----------



## skooler (Mar 26, 2011)

MalcolmB said:


> Why would that make a difference, are there other components inside apart from the switch itself?


Same Question!

My only thought is that the arc when the switch closs will be in a (slightly) different place?


----------



## Ace_bridger (Nov 22, 2011)

I'm not entirely sure and I was surprised as you are now. There was a deliberate note in my kit instructions to wire it that way to avoid burning the switch out.

Instructions attached. The switch is connected to the vehicle body and has one wire running to it. It switches the earth.

See top of page 3.

Your switches may be different of course...if they're 2 wired then they are, obviously.


----------



## Ace_bridger (Nov 22, 2011)

Good luck for tomorrow!!

I pulled mine off the drive tonight and am getting a high pedal lock out...needs a little adjustment I think.


----------



## skooler (Mar 26, 2011)

Ace_bridger said:


> Good luck for tomorrow!!
> 
> I pulled mine off the drive tonight and am getting a high pedal lock out...needs a little adjustment I think.


Thanks  should all be ok  fingers crossed!


----------



## kakheath (Jan 7, 2012)

skooler said:


> Quick update, I'll post a full update later on...
> 
> To summarise:
> 
> ...


I'm very impressed Mike. Good work. I hope all goes well for you on Saturday. I'm very interested in the solution for getting the ps working and turning off the rest of the dash lights. Please send me the info soon. I'm going to EVCCON in Missouri in a couple of weeks and would like to have it working by then if possible. 

Thanks for sharing.
Kevin


----------



## skooler (Mar 26, 2011)




----------



## Ace_bridger (Nov 22, 2011)

GET IN!!!! Well done, it must have been a long journey!! I'm deep in wires and brake hoses at the moment.

Who did you insure through? Pluinsure?

I can guess what you'll be doing for the rest of the day...gone cruisin'!!!!

I'm not far off now I don't think...Santa Pod here we come!!!


----------



## skooler (Mar 26, 2011)

Yep very pleased!

Not as long as the journey back though....I ran out of charge about 500 yards from the garage I have been keeping it at, it was at most 2 miles each way.

The car wasn't fully charged when I set out, about 13.2volts on each 12v battery.

I'm not quite sure what is going on, I left the car for 5 hours on charge and then drove it home, its 6 miles at the most. After about 4 miles I could feel the car struggling. It would appear that the lower voltage limit is kicking in on the soliton. I have it set to 80V under load and 130v not under load.

I think it may just be that its not fully charged, the drive I had in it about a month ago was fine, that was hot off the charger. 

I need about 15 miles of quality range at a minimum. It may just be that I have to order myself some lithium. Using cheap batteries was a gamble and it looks as though it hasn't paid off. 

But it still doesn't make sense to me - 5 hours on a 1500w charger is 7.5KWH call it 6KWH after losses. At 300WH/mile that is 20 miles. At 600WH/mile its 10 miles. I managed about 4 miles! Somethings not right!

Anyone with any ideas?

Kevin,

How much money do you have to spend? It wasn't cheap! Will send you a PM with the price.

Basically I paid somebody to make me a canbus signal generator that sends canbus signals to the cars original power steering controller. Simply cut and join two wires going into the original controller to the signal generator and its done.

I'm working the rest of this weekend so will post a full update when I'm free!


----------



## Ace_bridger (Nov 22, 2011)

skooler said:


> But it still doesn't make sense to me - 5 hours on a 1500w charger is 7.5KWH call it 6KWH after losses. At 300WH/mile that is 20 miles. At 600WH/mile its 10 miles. I managed about 4 miles! Somethings not right!
> 
> Anyone with any ideas?


That's not a good end to a very good day! How old are those batteries and how many miles are on them?

You know as much as I do but I would stick it on charge and give it a full soak, then see what you get.

One point, just because your charger is 1500w it won't necessarily be running at 1500w every hour for 5 hours.

Are there any state of charge indicators on the charger? My Elcon has different coloured LEDs which flash in different sequences to give an indication of SOC.

You could load test the individual batteries to see if they're all happy?


----------



## skooler (Mar 26, 2011)

Hi Adam,

No its not great, confident its something simple though.

Thats the plain, its an elcon so I'll wait for it to go green before i move it again. the yellow indicator (80% SoC) wash showing before my second trip (6 miles) but at 80% and only 50% usable capacity with Lead, thats 30% SOC that is usable - or 5KWH of a flat pack

Good point about the charger not pushing out 1500w all the time...

I'll wait until its fully charged and i can see my full range before I investigate deeply!

Thanks for the help!

Cheers,

Mike



Ace_bridger said:


> That's not a good end to a very good day! How old are those batteries and how many miles are on them?
> 
> You know as much as I do but I would stick it on charge and give it a full soak, then see what you get.
> 
> ...


----------



## Ziggythewiz (May 16, 2010)

What kind of batteries do you have? My 12vs are full at 13.2 (29DC or HM). Do you have a way to measure the watts in or out? You certainly can't count on the charger's sticker rating. I've been doing some prebalance charging all weekend with a 10A charger and averaging 6.


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## dillond666 (Dec 27, 2010)

What did you set the battery current limit at?
When I was running 160aH AGMs I did 25 mile round trip to work each day with the current limit at 450A and my batteries were shot within 1 yr. I blame peukerts and a heavy right foot :-(

If you have a 12v smart charger you could charge each battery individually to balance (not using bms I presume).
FYI my batteries had to be charged to a higher voltage for cyclic use than they did for float use.

Check all connections with an infra red thermometer after a run.

Is the controller adequately cooled?

Check for battery drain when sitting, charger, dc-dc etc?

Just a little brainstorming, probably all obvious.

Out of interest, did you advance the brushes on your motor at all?


----------



## Ace_bridger (Nov 22, 2011)

Aside,



dillond666 said:


> Check all connections with an infra red thermometer after a run.


What a good idea!! Having just built my pack I want confidence in all of the joints and that would be a great way of checking that I don't have I^2xR problems.


----------



## skooler (Mar 26, 2011)

Ziggythewiz said:


> What kind of batteries do you have? My 12vs are full at 13.2 (29DC or HM). Do you have a way to measure the watts in or out? You certainly can't count on the charger's sticker rating. I've been doing some prebalance charging all weekend with a 10A charger and averaging 6.


They are Alphaline DC31 batteries - deep cycle leisure batteries to get up and running. the chemistry is lead calcium which basically ups the charge voltage a little to around 15v. 125AH rated capacity, 12 in series)

Understood that the charger may not actually be putting 1500 watts into the pack all the time. At the begining of the charge, my clamp meter shows 7.5-8amps towards the end of the charge its more like 2-3 amps but up to 178volts. 

The plan with the charger was to use the 1500w TC Charger for normal overnight home charging or where only a normal AC outlet is available (so not to overload) and then build the EMW charger for chargestations and the like. 

Worth mentoning that my J1772 equipment from Modular EV Power is working perfectly, as are the J1772 to 32A commando and 32A commando to UK3pin leads that I made 



dillond666 said:


> What did you set the battery current limit at?
> When I was running 160aH AGMs I did 25 mile round trip to work each day with the current limit at 450A and my batteries were shot within 1 yr. I blame peukerts and a heavy right foot :-(
> 
> If you have a 12v smart charger you could charge each battery individually to balance (not using bms I presume).
> ...


Mattery current is set to 400Amps. Performance was fine on my first drive (7+ miles) got up to 60MPH fine whereas yesterday 45 was a struggle.

I recently bottom balanced all the batteries to 11.9V.

Great idea with the thermometer. I have one so will dig it out and give it a go.

The Soliton is only air cooled but doesnt get too warm, never goes over 60c according to the logs.

Virtually no battery drain, my clamp meter shows 0.6Amps on the 12v side of the DCDC cant accurately read the input side.

Charger has only been connected while charging, leaving it plugged into the pack with no AC supply I get no draw.

And I didn't advance the brushes. My motor has a high bar count so I didn't see the need. There are no obvious signs of arcing.

I'm going to give it a full charge today and see what happens.

Thanks again for all the help 

Cheers,

Mike


----------



## electricmini (Oct 21, 2008)

Hi Mike

Good to hear you've got it all road-legal!!

Re: short range

I found the same thing with the floodies I've got in the Supra - they're rubbish!

110 Ah rating, but that's when discharged at the C20 rate, i.e. 20 hours to discharge. When in use in the car, they're more like 30 Ah tops
That's Peukert biting me, big time....

Also as others have said, the charger is probably not putting its full output power into the batteries, especially if the batteries were not empty. It takes a good 6 to 8 hours to completely top off the batteries in the Supe (I hate PbA by now)

On the good side, I've been experimenting with a Revolectrix PowerLab8 charger - what a cool piece of kit! Can balance up to 8 LiPo/LiFe cells, charge & discharge at up to 40A and it'll run off a 12V/24V battery too.
Gonna hook it up to that Sinopoly cell you sent me and get some data (sorry that's fallen off my radar)

Anyway, it's good to hear that you're on the road. After all the hard work it must give you a huge "EV grin" - I know the Supe does so for me , even if I still haven't got the gearbox working as I want...

Regards

Richard


----------



## skooler (Mar 26, 2011)

electricmini said:


> Hi Mike
> 
> Good to hear you've got it all road-legal!!
> 
> ...


Hi Richard,

All good info 

What kind of range were you getting on the supra?

As I said earlier, if I can't get a solid 15-18 Miles then I'm going to have to replace with Lithium. I'd really of liked to pay off my (small) loan I used to pay for some of the more expensive components before I went to lithium but I cant be stuck with a relatively useless car sat on the drive while I'm still driving petrol!...

You say 30AH tops on yours, say my 125AH floodies are about 35AH usable after losses, that's still 5KWH and at 300WH/mile that's still 16 miles, at 500WH/mile that's 10 miles. Still nowhere near what I'm getting!

1 year on lead would really of worked for me if I can get the range... shame if I cant.

This project was only really a proof of concept to see what is possible and what my own skills are. Now that I have the EV appetite I really fancy filling this thing with 70-100 200AH Sinopolys, replacing the motor for a dual 11" Kostov and mounting it in the transmission tunnell using a 2 speed gearbox, chuck in a shiva and for ~£30,000 total I'd have a killer car!

Ok I'll stop dreaming!


----------



## Ziggythewiz (May 16, 2010)

skooler said:


> I recently bottom balanced all the batteries to 11.9V.


Are these floodies? Flooded cells top balance by gassing every charge. Bottom balancing will damage the batteries and accomplish nothing.

My 12V floodies (125 AH sticker) were good for 31.25 usable (15 miles at 50% DOD) for about a year (some died after 8 months, some after 16).

Do you know the volts and amps under sag?


----------



## skooler (Mar 26, 2011)

Ziggythewiz said:


> Are these floodies? Flooded cells top balance by gassing every charge. Bottom balancing will damage the batteries and accomplish nothing.
> 
> My 12V floodies (125 AH sticker) were good for 31.25 usable (15 miles at 50% DOD) for about a year (some died after 8 months, some after 16).
> 
> Do you know the volts and amps under sag?


Thanks ziggy thats interesting. Surely it is better to have all of the batteries starting off at the same voltage though?

To be clear, I am not using a BMS, I manually charged / discharged some of the cells to get them to the same voltage as i noticed a couple were different from the rest of the pack.

I'll pull off the logfiles from the soliton and post them in a few mins.

Cheers,

Mike


----------



## Ziggythewiz (May 16, 2010)

Are you talking about cells or batteries? Lead batteries should never be bottom balanced because that is damaging. They only need to be top balanced if they are a non-gassing type. Gassing batteries self balance at the end of the charge. They do not have to be the exact voltage (it will vary depending on the exact acidic concentration but doesn't matter), they just need to be full.

Balancing is mostly a lithium thing because they can be destroyed by minor overcharging which is normal and fine for FLA.


----------



## skooler (Mar 26, 2011)

log file from the drive to the MOT (apprx 2 miles) is attached.

I'm not going to give any clues but spot the obvious mistake!

On the way there we had some obvious limiting taking place. Not as bad as on the way back but unfortunately the laptop battery had died by then


----------



## skooler (Mar 26, 2011)

Ziggythewiz said:


> Are you talking about cells or batteries? Lead batteries should never be bottom balanced because that is damaging. They only need to be top balanced if they are a non-gassing type. Gassing batteries self balance at the end of the charge. They do not have to be the exact voltage (it will vary depending on the exact acidic concentration but doesn't matter), they just need to be full.
> 
> Balancing is mostly a lithium thing because they can be destroyed by minor overcharging which is normal and fine for FLA.


That makes sense. Mine are sealed and dont have any way of gassing (that I am aware of).

Understood with lithium, all my experience and research is with lithium, i never really bothered to research the dos and don'ts with LA!


----------



## Ziggythewiz (May 16, 2010)

I don't know much about SLA, but in general you want to keep lead charged. Letting it sit for a long time at low soc just encourages sulfation.

From your log that's some serious voltage sag. I would suspect you have 1 or more bad batteries (unless they were all really low) that are tanking and drag the pack down. Do you have a load tester? Or more voltmeters?


----------



## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

skooler said:


> log file from the drive to the MOT (apprx 2 miles) is attached.
> 
> I'm not going to give any clues but spot the obvious mistake!
> 
> On the way there we had some obvious limiting taking place. Not as bad as on the way back but unfortunately the laptop battery had died by then


My observations: you're running out of voltage at a relatively low RPM (note how many entries have 100% duty). You repeatedly run into the low pack voltage limit. Despite the number of "controller temp high" warnings, the temperature seems very reasonable.


----------



## skooler (Mar 26, 2011)

Thanks again Ziggy,

I think that the pack may not have been charged as much as I first thought. (amber light = >80% on TC Charger)

Silly question, does lead sag more at a lower SoC (I assume so)?

In the log the voltage I started with is 143V - <12v/battery

Perhaps I really wasnt as full as I thought!

Jeffrey,
Clearly the voltage sag is the issue either due to low state of charge or s***e batteries.

Does that controller temp worry you at all? my approach to controller cooling was to install water cooling if needed.

the ambient temperature was between 16 and 18 degrees C.

P.S. I know you always advise the use of water cooling.


----------



## skooler (Mar 26, 2011)

I'm at work today and making use of the chargestation.

It has a KWH counter on the circuit breaker.

Plugged it in for 2 hours, I'm clearly the first to use it!

The green light was on on the TC Charger so I hooked up the laptop and took it for a spin.

It felt better but I can still feel something limiting me at about 30MPH in 2nd. PWM is at 100% again...

logfile attached


----------



## skooler (Mar 26, 2011)

Just noticed that the logs show 'High motor volt" 

Perhaps I should up that from 120v to 144v? There are no signs of arcing whatsoever


----------



## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

skooler said:


> ...Does that controller temp worry you at all? my approach to controller cooling was to install water cooling if needed....


Why in the world would I be worried about hitting 41C?!? Add 40C more to that temp and THEN I'll be screaming at you to fit liquid cooling already.


----------



## skooler (Mar 26, 2011)

Tesseract said:


> Why in the world would I be worried about hitting 41C?!? Add 40C more to that temp and THEN I'll be screaming at you to fit liquid cooling already.


Just checking


----------



## Ziggythewiz (May 16, 2010)

skooler said:


> Silly question, does lead sag more at a lower SoC (I assume so)?


That pod point looks pretty cool!

Mine typically sag around 15%

At 80% DOD they sag 30%...eventually they'll sag 100% (or 200% if it's just a few bad ones).


----------



## electricmini (Oct 21, 2008)

skooler said:


> Hi Richard,
> 
> All good info
> 
> What kind of range were you getting on the supra?


At the moment, it seems to be somewhere in the 10 to 15 miles area.
(MOT has just expired, so it's off the road at the moment)
The other month, the Emeter reported that I'd used 1/3 capacity just going 1 mile and back to get a pizza!!



skooler said:


> As I said earlier, if I can't get a solid 15-18 Miles then I'm going to have to replace with Lithium. I'd really of liked to pay off my (small) loan I used to pay for some of the more expensive components before I went to lithium but I cant be stuck with a relatively useless car sat on the drive while I'm still driving petrol!...
> 
> You say 30AH tops on yours, say my 125AH floodies are about 35AH usable after losses, that's still 5KWH and at 300WH/mile that's still 16 miles, at 500WH/mile that's 10 miles. Still nowhere near what I'm getting!
> 
> 1 year on lead would really of worked for me if I can get the range... shame if I cant.


Don't forget that the capacity you can use will increase as the batteries get a few cycles on them - you have to break lead-acids in gently. Their capacity will increase over the first 10-odd cycles. If you leave it weeks between cycles (like me) then you'll lose some capacity and have to do some of the "break-in" process again to rebuild full capacity

Batteries are a bit like dogs. If you look after them and feed them, they live a fair time. If you're cruel to them and mercilessly flog them ,they die early...
(for the full story, you need to read Lee Hart's post about this to the EVDL)

[


skooler said:


> This project was only really a proof of concept to see what is possible and what my own skills are. Now that I have the EV appetite I really fancy filling this thing with 70-100 200AH Sinopolys, replacing the motor for a dual 11" Kostov and mounting it in the transmission tunnell using a 2 speed gearbox, chuck in a shiva and for ~£30,000 total I'd have a killer car!
> 
> Ok I'll stop dreaming!


Oh dear... that's the kind of thinking that got me an old Supra with a Z2K and Warp11 in it 

I really need better batteries for the Supe.
Just ran a discharge test on that Sinopoly cell at 30Amps, it did exactly 60Ah before the Powerlab started cutting back the discharge current to avoid going below 2.7V
Impressive!

Now I want to know if I could get similar figures from a bunch of Headway cells (thinking in terms of higher peak discharge currents)


----------



## Ace_bridger (Nov 22, 2011)

What about the new cells from CALB? I was watching EVTV on Saturday night (R&R!) and he was getting 20C from them...he was almost wetting himself with excitement!!

He said you can now get a small (60Ah) lithium pack for $3300...why buy lead? I mean, don't get me wrong, I've just bought 12 off T1275 Trojans for my Golf but lithium is getting there cost wise.


----------



## skooler (Mar 26, 2011)

Hi All,

Just a quick update.

Just got back from the DVLA, I have tax and the logbook is with them.

Took the best part of 10 minutes in and out and was REALLY smooth, I hate to say it but I'm quite impressed!

All I needed was to fill in the relevant section on the V5c, fill in a application for a tax disc form, supply pictures of the engine bay, showing that there is no engine and write a small description of what has been changed.

It was emphasised that if there were any modifications to the monocoque that it would need to go for an IVA. I asked what was allowable and cutting non structural sheet metal is fine  

So now I can actually go for a drive!

Cheers,

Mike


----------



## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

Fantastic and well done.

I am glad to hear it has been so straight forward, that is good news for all of us in the UK.


----------



## Ace_bridger (Nov 22, 2011)

Good news!!  Have you stopped smiling and driving yet!!??

Apart from a speedo, horn and reversing light I think I'm ready for my MOT.


----------



## skooler (Mar 26, 2011)

Ace_bridger said:


> Good news!!  Have you stopped smiling and driving yet!!??
> 
> Apart from a speedo, horn and reversing light I think I'm ready for my MOT.


Afraid I've only driven about 4 miles today! I went to McDonalds and back and that's it! still smiling though! On the way back I couldnt get above 25mph

Something is not right with the batteries, They sag REALLY badly. I'm going to put the battery current limit right down to about 300Amps and see what happens.

Not impressed so far and I think my change to lithium sooner rather than later...


----------



## dougingraham (Jul 26, 2011)

skooler said:


> ASomething is not right with the batteries, They sag REALLY badly. I'm going to put the battery current limit right down to about 300Amps and see what happens.


I got the impression from what you have written that you left the pack sitting for several weeks (or more) at a low state of charge. This will kill lead acid batteries. They need to be kept fully charged as much as possible. If they aren't fully charged they are being damaged.


----------



## Ace_bridger (Nov 22, 2011)

Would a load test show you anything interesting? Or perhaps you've already done that by using them?

What sort of current are you pulling under normal driving?


----------



## Ace_bridger (Nov 22, 2011)

Do you know that your charger is doing what it should be doing? Can you monitor how many Kwh it is using during a full charge? What Ah setting is your Elcon on? Mines on 130 Ah but I have 150Ah batteries...not sure if it would make a vast difference. I can change mine quite simply by removing the little black sticker and press a button a few times (I'm lead to believe!).

I'm sure you've already tried these but I thought I'd mention it.


----------



## skooler (Mar 26, 2011)

Thanks for the info,

Quick update, after talking to Jeffrey at evnetics I have spotted a couple of errors in my controller config.

I had the minimum voltage set too low and the maximum amps to high, this was causing the voltage to drop and not recover (quickly).

I have now set the minimum battery volts under load to 115v and battery amps to 300A, much better now. I have been to work and back 5 times (1.5 miles) plus some pottering about all on a single charge, and considering I live on the side of the below, its not too bad!










Seems much better now! will keep the updates coming 

Cheers,

Mike


----------



## Ace_bridger (Nov 22, 2011)

That's more like it!!


----------



## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

Excellent!

Looking forward to some 'right way round' videos of it driving now.


----------



## skooler (Mar 26, 2011)

Quick update

Peukerts on these batteries ae ridiculous! I'm getting about 20AH of usable capacity from 125AH cells!

That has meant that I have stabalised at about 8 miles range... not great!

I can measure about 330WH /mile from the controller)

I'm starting to plan a lithium upgrade and would like to use the full 350V of the soliton. where can I find a suitable charger and DCDC converter? 

I'm finding the usual suspects stop at about 220V?

Cheers,

Mike


----------



## MalcolmB (Jun 10, 2008)

That's a surprisingly low capacity even for lead. At least you're on the road now and have a taste of the potential with lithium.

One possible option for the chargers would be to use two (insulated) chargers in series to get the higher voltage. This might be cheaper.


----------



## Ziggythewiz (May 16, 2010)

Yeah, that's pretty crappy. I got a solid 15 miles daily @50% DOD from my 125AH floodies (@120V)...for ~1 year. I think they would have lasted longer except that I was using 18-20 regularly.

About the DC-DC, there was a thread on EVDL about it recently, recommending using converters in series same as Malcolm's suggestion for the charger.


----------



## dougingraham (Jul 26, 2011)

skooler said:


> I'm starting to plan a lithium upgrade and would like to use the full 350V of the soliton. where can I find a suitable charger and DCDC converter?
> 
> I'm finding the usual suspects stop at about 220V?


The EMW charger in kit or fully assembled form might be a good choice for charger. I have the early kit and for safety (so I still can charge if my kit version breaks) and to get higher power and PFC I bought the fully assembled unit. At this point the fully assembled unit is a pretty stable product. Take it out of the box, hook up the AC wires, hook up the BMS wire (or tie it to the end of charge (EOC) wire), manually precharge the battery side connections and then hook up permanantly (I used a 5k ohm resistor), and finally power it up. There is J1772 support but I have not had a chance to test that. I can't see any reason why it wouldn't work. The current kit has matured greatly over what I got a year ago.

For a DC-DC I am using a Vicor Megapac I got off of EBAY. It has a PFC front end and will accept 110VDC up to 350VDC I believe (as well as 110 to 240 VAC). Ive trimmed down three of the 5V modules to give 13.6 volts when they are in series. I parallel this with an 8AH LiFePo4 pack. This floats the cells at 3.4V. I made the pack from 16 cells so it is a 4S4P pack and I matched the cells from a lot of 24 to give a difference of only 15mah. So basically it is both top and bottom balanced. And when it goes dead it is like switching off a light.

Gotta go put the car back on the trailer and continue my journey to Cape Giradeau MO or as I like to think of it EVMECCA.

Later


----------



## Ace_bridger (Nov 22, 2011)

Can I suggest that you wait until after Santa Pod to upgrade to lithium??!!


----------



## skooler (Mar 26, 2011)

100 EV miles!!

Still not much of a range improvement but it's been good for about 90% of my driving needs (excluding work).

Performance in town is more than reasonable, acceleration to about 25mph is insane!

I'm thinking of getting 100* 100ah cells and running 50s2p so I can add another 100 cells later for 320v nominal while keeping the cells all balanced - the original 100 cells would become a 100s1p string.

Either that or 50* 200ah cells and keep it at 160v nominal when I add the second half. Not sure though.

Any advice either way?

Cheers,

Mike


----------



## onegreenev (May 18, 2012)

What I am doing is running 192 volts and limiting the voltage to 156. I will keep the motor amperage set to 800 and my battery amps limited to 600. This will give me a solid 36 volt sag pad while under acceleration. works great. Gives me the larger kWh size pack and a decent performance vehicle with a clean sag pad under heavy acceleration. Plenty quick in town and easy to get to freeway speeds safely. Keeps up with traffic just fine. Even enough to pass those 55 mph slowpokes. 

Pete


----------



## TEV (Nov 25, 2011)

skooler said:


> 100 EV miles!!
> 
> Still not much of a range improvement but it's been good for about 90% of my driving needs (excluding work).
> 
> ...


Hi,
I would go with the 200Ah from the beginning if that is your final goal, paralleling = more cells & connections and everything associated with that.


----------



## skooler (Mar 26, 2011)

TEV said:


> Hi,
> I would go with the 200Ah from the beginning if that is your final goal, paralleling = more cells & connections and everything associated with that.


Only issue with that being that the first 50 cells will be more worn thean the second 50... so if I ever wanted the 320v my pack would be out of balance.

hmmmmm....


----------



## TEV (Nov 25, 2011)

skooler said:


> Only issue with that being that the first 50 cells will be more worn thean the second 50... so if I ever wanted the 320v my pack would be out of balance.
> 
> hmmmmm....


Unless you get the others after a very long period of time don't think it would realy matter, let's say the first ones are a few amps lower than the second string, you can get that with new cells too, you have to balance them and/or use a BMS anyway ( please don't start the "to BMS or not to BMS" jihad here , either you are the BMS or you get an automatic one is the only question) . The think is that I have 100 cells in my pack and I am glad that I decided to get a loan and buy the pack I wanted from the beginning, it's a lot of work to do the battery pack, you realy don't want to do that twice. Also having more connections = more money, more fail points, more maintenance ( checking 400 bolts vs 200) and probably more. 

In the final it's your decision and just make sure you don't have any regrets after.


----------



## Spyder.ev (Sep 6, 2011)

Hi Mike,
Excellent news on MOT and Tax issues....
Not so good on the battery front.
Im after a bit of info......How did you sort out the Power steering issue? you briefly talk about it but, would be really great if you could explain how it was done? Also how did you get over the ABS Fault light ? for the MOT ? I havent done much on my car so im well behind, need to reprogram my controller, then sort out some wiring issues then......
Anyway any info would be great.

cheers

nick


----------



## skooler (Mar 26, 2011)

Hi Nick,

I had somebody develop a controller to send canbus signals to the original RX8 EPS controller. Works perfectly, myself and kakheath are running it.


It works by replacing the CAN Low and CAN Hi inputs to the original power steering controller and essentially sending it the CANbus signals that it expects to receive. It is completely isolated from the rest of the cars CANbus network and ECU. 



As long as you do not turn the ignition to start the ABS light comes on and stays out (and definately works) on mine, the traction control light also stays out - not sure if it works. Haven't touched it other than that!


Send me a PM if your interested.


Myself and TTmartin are looking into a Sinopoly group buy if you are interested?


Cheers,


Mike


----------



## skooler (Mar 26, 2011)

*Re: A Good Motor???*



zsnemeth said:


> Hi Mike,
> 
> Have You had time to test those batteries? I'm curious, 'coz i'm planning to use the same 125Ah deep cycles in a hybrid LA/A123 battery pack build in my MGB.
> I hope they are perform acceptable...


Hi zsnemeth,

After 250 miles driving my advice is stay away.

I am using 12 * 125AH batteries (18KWH) and I'm getting between 4 and 12 miles range, I do live on the side of a hill though.

I can often see I can put 12KWH or more into the batteries but get less than 3KWH back out. This is the peukert effect at its worse! It has made my ZEVA fuel guage completely useless! I estimate 20AH usable capacity at the VERY best. 

FWIW my controller is limited to 300 battery amps so these aren't exactly getting abused




Anyway, for everyone else....  250 miles  

The only issues I have had so far is with speedbumps, potholes (this thing is low!) and the charge-station at work deciding to blow up in the rain...

Cheers,

Mike


----------



## Ace_bridger (Nov 22, 2011)

Hey Mike,

Congrats on your first 250 miles!!! I'm going to ring Pluginsure tomorrow to try to arrange some insurance. I have written a document detailing the build which they told me they need.

Who did you insure with?

Once I'm insured I'll book an MOT!!


----------



## skooler (Mar 26, 2011)

Ace_bridger said:


> Hey Mike,
> 
> Congrats on your first 250 miles!!! I'm going to ring Pluginsure tomorrow to try to arrange some insurance. I have written a document detailing the build which they told me they need.
> 
> ...


ta,

I'm insured with plugisure - £590 fully comp, unlimited mileage.

Looking forwarad to seeing yours on the road!

Cheers,

Mike


----------



## Ace_bridger (Nov 22, 2011)

Cheers Mike. I gave them the specification of the car and they're going to get back to me once they've digested it. Did they give you an agreed value or anything? I was thinking that if the car is ever in a crash and is a total loss then if the settlement is based on the value of the original car then that would no way by close to what it cost/is worth.

I think CALB new grey cells would be good in your car. Discuss! You'd kill me at Santa Pod then!!

I took the car for a short test drive up the road...the volt meter made some sparking noises and now it doesn't work!! Chinese rubbish!!


----------



## Ziggythewiz (May 16, 2010)

Ace_bridger said:


> I took the car for a short test drive up the road...the volt meter made some sparking noises and now it doesn't work!!


What meter were you using? I've used a dozen and only lost any on a reverse connection.


----------



## Ace_bridger (Nov 22, 2011)

Excuse me hijacking your thread Mike!!

It is just a Charlie Chan one from eBay. I've checked all connections and I have 150V and 12V where they should be so I can only assume I had a short at the (slightly) exposed terminals!

I'll get another one the same and hopefully just be able to plug it straight in without any rewiring.

Mike: grey cells, what do you think? Forget that 300A restriction...you'd have a frikin rocket ship!!


----------



## skooler (Mar 26, 2011)

Dont worry about the thread hijack - made me chuckle... I bought a Chinese meter off ebay, wired it in, worked once and then stopped. I have a replacement in the post.

As for insurance, I have it insured for a fixed sum which as I understand it, is what is payed out on a total loss. Its not as if it could be for 'market value'!

I have considered the CAs although I don't really see the benefit over the Sinopoly cells (which are considerably lighter). I am limited to 600A on the controller so the 200AH Sinopolys will only be at 3C, 5C if I ever upgrade to a soliton1. The CAs are heavier, but do have better discharge rates (which I'll never use)

Considering the relationship I have with Sinopoly, I'll be using them as they're cheaper and lighter. The best price I could get out of CALB was $1.12/AH for 50 of the 180AH cells, not great.

I'm pretty much set on 50*200AH Sinopoly cells now with the view of adding another 50 cells in parallel in the future if needed. Hoping for 80 miles range with the first 50 cells.

hmmmmmm

Cheers,

Mike


----------



## Ace_bridger (Nov 22, 2011)

Yeah, I didn't realise you were going as high as 200Ah. Once your up there then 600A isn't going to worry the batteries much.

Your RX8 is going to be ballistic once they're in!! And 80...oh, I dream of 80 miles range!! 

I hope you don't think I was disrespecting Sinoploy, or your relationship with them? I just got a bit giddy about 20C cells!! 

Do you know when you'll be getting the new chemistry?


----------



## Ace_bridger (Nov 22, 2011)

skooler said:


> .. I bought a Chinese meter off ebay, wired it in, worked once and then stopped. I have a replacement in the post.


I wonder if yours died for the same reason that mine died? Zig has highlighted that maybe my HV circuit isn't totally isolated from the 12V circuit. I know for a fcat that my two circuits aren't isolated...that's why the car keeps biting me when I'm working on the HV whilst touching the body...it's enough to make me stop and think a little more about what I'm doing!


----------



## TTmartin (Feb 7, 2012)

skooler;
I'm pretty much set on 50*200AH Sinopoly cells now with the view of adding another 50 cells in parallel in the future if needed. Hoping for 80 miles range with the first 50 cells.[/QUOTE said:


> Hi mike,
> 
> Just been looking at the Sinopoly spec's, it seems the 180ah and 200ah cells are the same size and weight.
> Is this correct? Is there any detriment to the 200ah cells being the same size?
> ...


----------



## skooler (Mar 26, 2011)

Ace_bridger said:


> I wonder if yours died for the same reason that mine died? Zig has highlighted that maybe my HV circuit isn't totally isolated from the 12V circuit. I know for a fcat that my two circuits aren't isolated.


Interesting! I use the 400w chennic DCDC, I'm 90% sure it is isolated.

I recieved my replacement meter thismorning. They sent two meters. You're more than welcome to the extra one if it actually works!?



Ace_bridger said:


> that's why the car keeps biting me when I'm working on the HV whilst touching the body...it's enough to make me stop and think a little more about what I'm doing!


There is a really good overview of frame leak issues on the evnetics FAQ page.

http://www.evnetics.com/support/faq/



Ace_bridger said:


> I hope you don't think I was disrespecting Sinoploy, or your relationship with them? I just got a bit giddy about 20C cells!!
> 
> Do you know when you'll be getting the new chemistry?


Not at all offended, the CALB cells are good but just because they will dish out 12c+ doesn't mean they are happy about it. It will likely have a serious effect on cycle life... (not saying they're better / worse than Sinopoly)

What do you mean by new chemistry?



TTmartin said:


> Hi mike,
> 
> Just been looking at the Sinopoly spec's, it seems the 180ah and 200ah cells are the same size and weight.
> Is this correct? Is there any detriment to the 200ah cells being the same size?
> ...


Hi Martin,

They are the same size and similar weight, its also the same size as the CALB 180AH cells. As far as I understand it, they have played with the annode/cathode and tweaked the chemistry to achieve around 10% increase in energy density. not sure of the specifics. Only the Sinopoly 60AH and 200AH cells are using this improved tech.

Not aware of any detriment, I think its just an improvement that has only been applied to specific (most common) product lines.
Cheers,

Mike


----------



## skooler (Mar 26, 2011)

Forgot to say,

A couple of weeks ago John Hardy, his son and two of his son's friends came to visit the car.

We made a short video for EVTV but it wasn't aired so here it is!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6eeYB7u2pHQ&feature=youtu.be

Cheers,

Mike


----------



## Ace_bridger (Nov 22, 2011)

skooler said:


> Interesting! I use the 400w chennic DCDC, I'm 90% sure it is isolated.
> 
> I recieved my replacement meter thismorning. They sent two meters. You're more than welcome to the extra one if it actually works!?
> 
> ...


Yes please, if you can spare the meter then that's be great. I'll have a read of that site.

I meant do you know when you might buy the new cells?


----------



## Ace_bridger (Nov 22, 2011)

skooler said:


> Forgot to say,
> 
> A couple of weeks ago John Hardy, his son and two of his son's friends came to visit the car.
> 
> ...


Awesome, well done Mike. Good to see some more detail of the car.


----------



## Ziggythewiz (May 16, 2010)

skooler said:


> Interesting! I use the 400w chennic DCDC, I'm 90% sure it is isolated.


If you're using it for anything (say lights, etc) I'm 99% sure it isn't. I have to put all my 4wire DVMs on separate ~$3 DC-DCs, which makes em a real pain to work with.


----------



## skooler (Mar 26, 2011)

Ziggythewiz said:


> If you're using it for anything (say lights, etc) I'm 99% sure it isn't. I have to put all my 4wire DVMs on separate ~$3 DC-DCs, which makes em a real pain to work with.


according to the below they are

http://www.chennic.com/products.asp?anclassid=2&nclassid=9

I might go down the DVM w/ seperate DCDC route to be safe


----------



## skooler (Mar 26, 2011)

Quick update.

My charger (TC Ch 1500) has packed in so haven't been able to drive the cae this week. Managed around 350 miles so far.

I managed to fit the cheap Chinese voltmeter in my ashtray (so it can be hiddn). Got through 3 of those before I found a working one! sorry Ace!

My camera isn't working atm so I'll get some pictures soon.

Oh, and the plan for a lithium upgrade is progressing. I'm now set on 75* Sinopoly 200AH cells for 240v nominal and an 8KW charger. I still cant find a suitable DCDC converter 

Cheers,

Mike


----------



## TTmartin (Feb 7, 2012)

skooler said:


> Quick
> Oh, and the plan for a lithium upgrade is progressing. I'm now set on 75* Sinopoly 200AH cells for 240v nominal and an 8KW charger. I still cant find a suitable DCDC converter :mad
> Mike


How about this one, Meanwell 709-SP750-12?


----------



## skooler (Mar 26, 2011)

TTmartin said:


> How about this one, Meanwell 709-SP750-12?


That could work....

Any ideas on where to buy?


----------



## Ace_bridger (Nov 22, 2011)

No worries Mike...I think I'm going for a JLD404 Ah meter which will do V, A and Ah. It's on my Christmas list!! 

I've commuted in my Golf Tues-Fri thi sweek and love, love, love it!!!

That's crap that your charger died...Elcon 2.5Kw right? Same as me...can you not get some support from Elcon or the seller of it?



skooler said:


> Quick update.
> 
> My charger (TC Ch 1500) has packed in so haven't been able to drive the cae this week. Managed around 350 miles so far.
> 
> ...


----------



## dladd (Jun 1, 2011)

skooler said:


> Quick update.
> 
> My charger (TC Ch 1500) has packed in so haven't been able to drive the cae this week. Managed around 350 miles so far.


I've had three failures in the last year where I woke up to a non-charged car. Two were charger failures, one was a dead 12v battery that took down the BMS (which turned off the charger). I've found it to be incredibly helpful to have a second back up charger, it seems to be the weak link to me. And not something you can just pop down to the local Radio Shack and get a new one...


----------



## TTmartin (Feb 7, 2012)

skooler said:


> That could work....
> 
> Any ideas on where to buy?


http://www.mouser.com


----------



## onegreenev (May 18, 2012)

> I still cant find a suitable DCDC converter


Vicor MegaPac would do. Can give you different voltages you might need to. I use three 5v/40amp is series for 15 volts and a 12 volt for contactors too. Works well.


----------



## skooler (Mar 26, 2011)

Thanks all, 

got this response from Nancy at TC Charger (where I purchased it)



> Hi Mike
> 
> Sorry for the late response. My engineer is just back from business.
> 
> ...


----------



## skooler (Mar 26, 2011)

I took a short video of the charging fault to send to TC CH, I'm keen not to send it back so trying to assist them in the diagnosis.


----------



## Ace_bridger (Nov 22, 2011)

Mine did some funny flashings and I tracked it down to a loose fuse holder in the 13A domestic plug on my charging lead, The house end is you get my drift.

Not sure your flashing sequence is the same as mine though. It was the flashing sequence for 'Battery Self Repairing'.

If the sequence is obviously different then ignore this message but I tought it worth mentioning.

Good luck.


----------



## skooler (Mar 26, 2011)

Hi all, thought I'd post a quick update on whats going on.

My charger has been sent back to TC Charger for repair. They wanted me to pay the shipping (fair enough but cost £60) but then asked for an additional $80 for customs. It's now cost me over £100 to send back!

In the meantime, I have placed an order for the EMW charger in its water-cooled form, I'll then loop the water-cooling through the Soliton and the charger in series to prevent the need for 2 separate systems.

Does anyone see a problem with that?

I'm also in the final stages of ordering 75* Sinopoly 200AH cells, I'm hoping to have them in the next 4 weeks so I can fit them over the xmas holidays.

Finally, I'm working on a couple of side projects... I'm hoping to build a tablet into the dash such as below, it'll be used to run the EMW dash, nav, music, chargepoint search etc. I'm going to make a fancy frontend to allow easy switching between the 'apps'. I also make it so that android starts on a home screen for all of the apps.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A4TDVmXORzY

The other project is an automatic bottom balancer for when first installing cells. I worked out that doing it manually on a 75 series, 200AH pack would take over 6 weeks!

The idea now is to install the cells with no balancing whatsoever and run them to near flat (~3v/cell) and then remove them after the first cycle for bottom balancing.

Trying to bleed the cells down one at a time would just take too long.

Obviously I'll be taking care not to run them flat!

Finally, I want to replace my motor cooling for an adapted turbo like we see on EVTV. The server fan solution is working perfectly but i just don't trust it!

Thats it for now. This thread should get quite interesting over the next 8 weeks 

Finally, how do people like to 'read' updates? thinking of less text and images, more video? or a mix of all three?

Cheers,

Mike


----------



## favguy (May 2, 2008)

There should be no customs fee due when returning a product for repair, nothing is being sold, sound a bit dubious 

As for updates, lots of pictures to go with the write up please


----------



## Ziggythewiz (May 16, 2010)

How are you physically planning to do the bottom balancing? It's a lot of work to install cells, then remove, then reinstall. If you're only going to drain one at a time anyway you might as well just leave them in.


----------



## electricmini (Oct 21, 2008)

skooler said:


> I'm also in the final stages of ordering 75* Sinopoly 200AH cells, I'm hoping to have them in the next 4 weeks so I can fit them over the xmas holidays.


Cool!

I'm gonna be looking for some cells for the Supra in the new year but can't commit till then (won't have funds before January)



skooler said:


> The other project is an automatic bottom balancer for when first installing cells. I worked out that doing it manually on a 75 series, 200AH pack would take over 6 weeks!
> 
> The idea now is to install the cells with no balancing whatsoever and run them to near flat (~3v/cell) and then remove them after the first cycle for bottom balancing.


this is a bit scary! You might end up ruining some cells...

I have a PowerLab8 charger/discharger, which you can borrow if you wish - at least that way you'll be able to empty the cells in blocks of up to 8 at a time, and if you use the built-in balancers then you can get all the cells down to the same level without any one cell going below the cutoff voltage.
PM me if you want to borrow it (I could do with seeing your car anyway!)

Richard


----------



## skooler (Mar 26, 2011)

favguy said:


> There should be no customs fee due when returning a product for repair, nothing is being sold, sound a bit dubious
> 
> As for updates, lots of pictures to go with the write up please


Hi Paul, that's exactly my point! I don't know about China but definitely at this end!
I'm currently skeptical, I'll see what happens over the next week - I dont want to give them a bad name or anything but I currently feel uncomfortable about the whole thing! Nancy at TC said this:



> =TC Charger] We recommand that you can return the chargers at your cost to us . Then we can repair them to you and check if the problem was caused by our side or your side. If it was caused by our side, we will charge for the freight cost. If it was caused by your side, you can charge for the freght cost and small repair fee.
> 
> Is that acceptable?



No its not acceptable what what other choice do I have!?




Ziggythewiz said:


> How are you physically planning to do the bottom balancing? It's a lot of work to install cells, then remove, then reinstall. If you're only going to drain one at a time anyway you might as well just leave them in.



Hi Ziggy,


I thought this might come up and its hard to explain but here we go!


The cells usually arrive at around 3.3v, my pack will be 48KWH+ total that gives me more than 40KWH to burn off to get to 2.75v. 



Using a resistive load would take weeks, hence why installing them into the car and doing some miles makes sense to bring the pack down!


I will carefully monitor the cells manually every mile or so to make sure none are getting too low. I can then bottom balance using a resistive load - The cells can stay in the car if needed, i'll see how easily they go in and out.


The basic idea is a resistive load switched by a contactor which in turn is switched by a programmable voltmeter which provides NO/NC outputs below 2.75v. 



A 10second time delay relay will be used between the contactor and voltmeter to stop any rapid switching as the cell reaches 2.75v





electricmini said:


> Cool!
> 
> I'm gonna be looking for some cells for the Supra in the new year but can't commit till then (won't have funds before January)
> 
> ...



Hi Richard,


Good, let me know when - there a few UK builds coming to that stage so it might be possible to combine shipping, import fees etc.


What worries you about it? The initial drive with no balancing?

If so then it worries me too! I plan to check the cells every mile or so to make sure nothing goes wrong! It could be a long trip! (like 100+ miles!)


I don't think the PowerLab8 alone would cut it? The cells need to be drained manually first otherwise it'll take too long, this is a 48KWH pack!


It could definitely be useful for the last part of the balance... being able to balance 8 at a time seems like a big bonus!


I have used similar products before, does it let you select a voltage and simply drain the cells to that voltage?


Cheers,


Mike


----------



## Ziggythewiz (May 16, 2010)

skooler said:


> Using a resistive load would take weeks, hence why installing them into the car and doing some miles makes sense to bring the pack down!
> 
> I will carefully monitor the cells manually every mile or so to make sure none are getting too low. I can then bottom balance using a resistive load - The cells can stay in the car if needed, i'll see how easily they go in and out.


I think driving them down with the car is a good idea, as long as you monitor things properly. That's my main beef with bottom balancing, as it can take weeks to take them all down one at a time.

How are you planning to monitor them once things are all hooked up? Most of us that go BMS-free at least support the idea of some form of half pack bridge, that compares voltage from each half of the pack. If you see on half suddenly drop by a volt compared to the other someone's going down the cliff and it's time to stop.

I think you'll find it isn't the installing of the cells that takes a long time, but the connecting of them, so if you can drive them down to 3.0 vpc and then take them down from there one at a time with the powerlab or programmed botom balancer without having to disconnect them that should be good.


----------



## electricmini (Oct 21, 2008)

skooler said:


> What worries you about it? The initial drive with no balancing?
> 
> If so then it worries me too! I plan to check the cells every mile or so to make sure nothing goes wrong! It could be a long trip! (like 100+ miles!)


Ok, yes it might be a long trip. I keep forgetting you're talking about 200Ah cells! 



skooler said:


> I don't think the PowerLab8 alone would cut it? The cells need to be drained manually first otherwise it'll take too long, this is a 48KWH pack!
> 
> It could definitely be useful for the last part of the balance... being able to balance 8 at a time seems like a big bonus!
> 
> I have used similar products before, does it let you select a voltage and simply drain the cells to that voltage?


It'll discharge at up to 40A, though I wouldn't want to push it that far - the fused high current wires get pretty hot at 30A. You do need a big semi-discharged lead-acid battery for it to dump the power into - otherwise it has to burn the energy off as heat, then it can only discharge at 3 or 4 amps.

You'll have a bunch of old lead-acids available when the lithiums go in right? Wire a few in parallel and voila - a 12 or 24V lead acid with several 100 Ah capacity!
(24V is better when discharging a full 8 cells at one go, you can get the max discharge current then)

Yes, it's fully programmable, and it logs data to a PC as well via a USB adaptor, if you want.
It cuts back the discharge current to prevent any cell going below your cut-off limit.

You can also do the reverse - charge at up to 40A (as long as your 24V battery or PSU can provide that much current - I've got several big 24V PSUs here that could be used),
you could set it up to stop when any cell hits your upper voltage limit (not sure if you can set an Ah target)

Also, during the discharge/charge cycle it'll calculate the internal resistance of each cell - this would be a good way to spot any "stinkers"....

H.T.H.

Richard


----------



## Ace_bridger (Nov 22, 2011)

I'm really pleased (for you) to hear that you're planning on installing the new cells sooner rather than later...but less pleased for me as I won't stand a chance at Santa Pod!!!!!

I'm liking the ideas that are being bounced around about the cell balancing...standing by and learning...


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## picaroon (Apr 6, 2012)

Hi Mike.

I’m Gavin, we swapped a couple of messages a few months back when I found out you lived close to me.
I have a build thread on Elmoto for my Lambretta, although shamefully it doesn’t see many updates as I’m always short on build time!
Congrats on getting your car on the road, bit of a bummer with your charger playing up. 
I’m figuring you know more than me but I thought I’d throw a few things in about your new cells as I have heard of a few stories of damaged cells and hope it doesn’t happen to you.
As you said your new cells will arrive at 3.3v and according to the discharge graph the SOC of your cells could be anything like 10Ah’s or 180Ah’s at that voltage as voltage is a very poor indicator of SOC in LiFePo4 chemistry.

http://www.sinopolybattery.com/ClientResources/201203261556142.pdf

They should arrive at a storage level of charge, maybe about 65% SOC, but they will not be matched/balanced to each other. If you were to use them straight out of the box it will probably give you a bit of a headache with that amount of cells to monitor with what could be, as I said earlier, a massive difference in charge levels.
I think to keep them safe your 75 cells will need to be monitored under load also not just when you pull over every few miles.

A good starting point would be to parallel all your cells before you start your drive and charge them up to 3.8v with a single cell charger and leave them on charge for a few days, or longer the better, sat at that voltage. This will top balance them, I know that’s not what you are trying to do but it will probably give you a better starting point than no balancing at all. 
As for monitoring during driving a good and low cost way is to use celllog 8’s from Hobbyking. They sound like a nice bit of kit. You can monitor individual cells and set alarms for minimum voltage and maximum voltage and they data log.

http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showthread.php/cell-log-8-review-43343.html

http://electricporsche.rwaudio.com/2012/02/a-quick-demo-of-the-cell-log-8-breakout-module/

They will also help you if you are bottom balancing and bulk charging your cells as the bulk charge voltage equals the total of averages of each cell. Like 3.6v x 75 = 270v 
What could easily happen is one cell overcharging whilst other cells not reaching maximum voltage. It’s a good idea to sleep with a baby monitor next to your bed and the other end snuggled up next to your celllog alarms J

As for taking your cells down to their lower limit for bottom balancing after your drive, you could make a dump load from Nichrome wire, or maybe find a suitable dump load used for a wind turbine off of ebay, I’m sure I have seen up to 1000w loads on there. You may need to bottom balance again after putting a few cycles on your cells, apparently they can drift a bit initially? So it’s worth getting a decent rig sorted.

You sound very clued up on everything anyway so you probably know more than me as I’m still new to the game. 

I may be wrong at points(?) so anybody feel free to correct me, humble pie is easier to swallow than a big Sinopoly bill for Mike J
It’s also good to see so many Brits on here to……
Gav


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## MalcolmB (Jun 10, 2008)

I'd second what Gavin has said about using some cell-logs. The non-logging version are very cheap. I have them permanently hooked up to my little lithium pack and they're really useful as they let you check everything is OK at a glance. I also think charging the cells up in parallel is a good idea, though I'd suggest just taking them up to around 3.5V. I don't want to start another top balancing versus bottom balancing argument here, but I'm curious why you decided you want to bottom balance them? It sounds like a lot of work.


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## skooler (Mar 26, 2011)

OK that's got me thinking. Fully understand the SOC issue it 3.3v...

I'll have a look into the cellogs - as you said humble pie is easier to swallow than a £10k + car battery fire!

As for bottom balancing, a couple of reasons... I'm the kind of person that pushes things a little rather than getting help... I'll probably end up going a little to far on one or two occasions and go to a lower SOC than I'd like and this will offer some protection.

I only plan to charge to 3.6/3.65v so there will be an added amount of overhead for when things go wrong.

I wont go any further than that as we'll get into the topbalance vs bottom balance vs bms vs no bms debate!

Something like this? I'd only need 10 so seems a good option

http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/store/uh_viewitem.asp?idproduct=10952

Cheers,

Mike


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## MalcolmB (Jun 10, 2008)

skooler said:


> As for bottom balancing, a couple of reasons... I'm the kind of person that pushes things a little rather than getting help... I'll probably end up going a little to far on one or two occasions and go to a lower SOC than I'd like and this will offer some protection.


Makes good sense. If you do go the cell-log route, rwaudio made up some handy interface boards for combining the outputs from the cell-logs so they can be used to trigger charger cut-off and LV cut-off. I think he still has a few left.
http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showthread.php?t=70186


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## picaroon (Apr 6, 2012)

MalcolmB said:


> If you do go the cell-log route, rwaudio made up some handy interface boards for combining the outputs from the cell-logs so they can be used to trigger charger cut-off and LV cut-off. I think he still has a few left.
> http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showthread.php?t=70186


Similar to what MalcolmB posted up, here is an ES thread for a DIY option, showing how to make your CellLogs into high voltage cut off and shut your charger down if one of your cells should reach a voltage limit.
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=427310#p427310

I think for an everyday vehicle the minimum you need to do for your cells is have them balanced (top,bottom or by BMS) and have each cell idividually monitored. 
Its one thing monitoring your batteries whilst driving but you dont want to be sat there during charging too! 

And WOWZERS! its a big battery your buying  Do they all fit in? How much do they all weigh?


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## skooler (Mar 26, 2011)

Hmmm interesting.

I was planning on installing blind (i.e. bottom balance and leave/ monitor manually) but I do like the idea of monitoring cells and stopping the charger if something goes wrong... I just don't like the idea of lots of little wires that could all be potential shorts!

And yes, its a big and expensive battery. I'm going for 75 cells at 5.8KG each - 435KG total, compared to 320KG with the lead that is already installed.

I can definitely fit 60 in.... I'm then looking at using the space under the rear seats where the fuel tank once lived. Its quite shallow but I think I could get away with losing some cushion!

Anything leftover can go into the boot/trunk!

I'll do some research into the options, the cellogs seem a good compromise between nothing and a full blown BMS


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## Tomas Burman (Mar 23, 2008)

Hello skooler,

I have read the whole thread non-stop tonight, since i plan to do a Rx8 myself.
First, let me salute your effort and results, its a really nice build.
When you stripped the car from ICE part, did you check the weight of the stuff??
I am very curious about how much junk I can get rid of.

Thank you and good luck with the change of batteries. I think you will be surprised over the range difference  
/ Tomas from Sweden


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## Ziggythewiz (May 16, 2010)

skooler said:


> And yes, its a big and expensive battery. I'm going for 75 cells at 5.8KG each - 435KG total, compared to 320KG with the lead that is already installed.


Wow! I don't think I've heard of anyone upping the weight by switching to lithium. Are you running laps around your little island or what?


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## Ace_bridger (Nov 22, 2011)

Not that I know anything about lithium but if I had a pack of that value I would monitor them to within an inch of their lives...I would not only sleep with a baby monitor I would sleep with the batteries!

What Wh/m are you expecting with these bad boys installed? I guess you're looking at 150-160 miles range?


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## skooler (Mar 26, 2011)

Thanks for the kind words.

I didn't really weigh anything! My attitude is that it'll take whatever i need to put into it, no compromise!

As long as its with the weight limits then things are fine, and the RX8 has quite a high limit (1800KG from memory)!

And ziggy.... little island! purgh .

Hoping for about 300-330WH per mile (counted from the batteries).

On a side note. my LA charger is now with TC Charger for repair...

Hopefully get to do a few more miles on the leads before I rip them all out!


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## skooler (Mar 26, 2011)

Quick update, just got a response from TC charger:



> Hello Mike
> 
> We recieved the charger. Thank you so much.
> 
> ...


I dont really understand what this means? I cant pull the charge lead out too quickly!?


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## Ziggythewiz (May 16, 2010)

Some chargers blow fuses or themselves if you disconnect the leads without turning down the current or removing power first...I assume that's what they're referring to.


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## skooler (Mar 26, 2011)

Seems a little bit sensitive to me!

just got this back:



> Because the fuse burnt. Please don't pull out the power cable forcefully when charging.


A lesson to learn I suppose!


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## drgrieve (Apr 14, 2011)

Just ensure the cell log 8's are installed so that they don't unbalance your pack over time. Every cell tap needs to draw the same milliamps very accurately.

Would ruin all your bottoming balancing efforts.

The split pack monitor is a good idea - I can't remember or find what it's called with a bit of googling.


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## MalcolmB (Jun 10, 2008)

Good point. There's a thread here with details of the mod to make sure the cell-logs draw equal current from each cell. One other point is that each cell-log should be connected to the same number of cells to ensure equal drain across the pack. Obviously with 200 Ah cells it would take many cycles to create significant imbalance, but it's still worth keeping in mind.
http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showthread.php?t=68159&highlight=cell-log

Personally, if I was investing this much in a pack I would fit a distributed BMS such as the Mini BMS or Lithiumate Lite, since the added cost per cell is relatively small. This would also minimise the number of little wires snaking around the pack. I totally understand people's preferences to minimise the number of possible points of failure though. It's your call Mike


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## dillond666 (Dec 27, 2010)

If you wanted to be adventurous (masochistic) you could make a clone of my BMS system. Each module does 48 cells so you would need to build two and link them together.
Monitors high and low voltage per cell and does the charger and that's it! 
http://www.batteryvehiclesociety.org.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?f=53&t=3315

As a side note, I bought a single cell 20A charger to do a periodic manual balance and it takes forever! I'm going to make an add on that will cut the charger at 3.65v & 5A instead of tapering down to virtually nothing. The way it's set up takes ages and hardly puts any extra aH in anyway!

I did give some thought to your bottom balancer and reckon it could be done with a dual comparator and a handful of very cheap bits. I'll do a schematic if you are interested.

Maybe if you are going to go with your original idea of driving the car to drain the cells down, you could remove say 10Ah from one cell first and monitor that one on the run. That would most likely run down before the rest and reduce the chances of buggering the pack up. Then you could bottom balance as you had planned originally.


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## Ziggythewiz (May 16, 2010)

skooler said:


> Seems a little bit sensitive to me!


Agreed. I always thought that was a huge drawback, manzanita is the main one I've heard issues with. Any time a breaker or any connection pops during a charge cycle you're hosed, as well as taking additional work to turn on and off. My little Quickcharger is the slowest thing in town, but any disconnect just puts it in configure mode.

What's truly rediculous is that a burnt fuse was not easily diagnosed/replaced without all the shipping costs.


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## skooler (Mar 26, 2011)

Ziggythewiz said:


> Agreed. I always thought that was a huge drawback, manzanita is the main one I've heard issues with. Any time a breaker or any connection pops during a charge cycle you're hosed, as well as taking additional work to turn on and off. My little Quickcharger is the slowest thing in town, but any disconnect just puts it in configure mode.
> 
> What's truly rediculous is that a burnt fuse was not easily diagnosed/replaced without all the shipping costs.


Exactly!

the bit that has really wound me up is that i made a huge effort to help them diagnose the problem remotely...

http://youtu.be/bGlhrzcmSec

That would of avoided the £60 shipping from UK, $80 Chinese customs, $130 repair and postage to UK + whatever I now need to pay to UK customs.

I'm not a happy bunny, especially when its just a fuse!

a better line of service would have been: remove the cover and put a continuity tester between two points, if there is no cont then change fuse.......


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## skooler (Mar 26, 2011)

dillond666 said:


> If you wanted to be adventurous (masochistic) you could make a clone of my BMS system. Each module does 48 cells so you would need to build two and link them together.
> Monitors high and low voltage per cell and does the charger and that's it!
> http://www.batteryvehiclesociety.org.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?f=53&t=3315
> 
> ...


Hi Derek,

I dont think the bottom balancer even needs to be that complicated! I think that using a relatively cheap programmable meter with NO/NC outputs, an array of standard automotive relays and a large bleed resistor could work quite well?

Something like:
http://blog.evtv.me/store/proddetail.php?prod=FourRangeVoltmeter

I would be interested in the schematic but please don't go out of your way to make it!

I'll probably start a thread when I've given it more thought 

Cheers,

Mike


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## Ace_bridger (Nov 22, 2011)

That's out of order. If the charger is that sensitive then why they haven't installed the fuse externally I don't know. At least then you'd be able to change when it happens.

We need UK suppliers.



skooler said:


> Exactly!
> 
> the bit that has really wound me up is that i made a huge effort to help them diagnose the problem remotely...
> 
> ...


----------



## favguy (May 2, 2008)

Hi Mike,

So if we ever lose the supply for any reason whilst charging, the fuse pops on these chargers? That sucks, sooner or later it's bound to happen again. Maybe it would be worth moving the fuse to an external holder in order to change it easily in some future event, do you know it's location now in the charger?

As for all this customs stuff, I don't get it, surely the customs labels should be stating it is only being shipped for warranty repair? (with maybe a copy of the original purchase invoice attached to prove?) There should be no customs liability if nothing is being sold, it's outragous! 

Come to think of it, why the hell are they charging you for the repair anyway, the product is at fault!!


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## skooler (Mar 26, 2011)

Dont get me started on customs!

I can understand the UK side of things but I cant do anything about the china end.

I did open the case before sending it and located a fuse, the continuity tester showed it was OK. That fuse was on the ac input with nothing between so that doesn't explain why I was still getting lights!

Either there is another fuse that I missed or the fuse being a fault was a lie?

I will open it up again when it returns to look for any modifications.

At this stage, I cannot recommend TC charger.

Thankfully my EMW 10/15KW watercooled kit is on order 

On a side note (kinda)... I think I know what caused the charger to stop working now - I diddnt post it at the time due to embarrassment but 3 weeks later it has some relevance so I'll confess!

My AVC2 module for controlling J1772 was having issues, so I removed it for testing. It also interrupts the controller while the J1772 is latched. I took the car home, plugged it in using my J1772 to commando to UK 3pin adapter, went to bed and forgot about it.

The next day, I got up, chucked my bag in the car (carefully stepping over the trailing charge lead to get to the boot), strapped myself in, turned on the stereo and drove off.

Any ideas what I forgot to do!?

yep I drove off with it plugged in, I had planned for the eventuality by not connecting the commando socket as tightly as I normally would. Luckily, thats the part that broke. (and the window frame the lead was chucked through... woops!). The commando socket coming apart exposed the unshielded wires which could well of shorted against eachother.

So it may well of been my fault, but I still think that its its oversensitive!


----------



## TEV (Nov 25, 2011)

By the time your plug unplugged, your charger was already damaged from powering your controller. I bet was a fuse on the battery side of the charger blown.


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## Ace_bridger (Nov 22, 2011)

A wise man once told me that the man that never made a mistake never made anything! 

Another wise man once told me that a long journey is made up of many small steps...but he was Chinese and only had short legs!

Problem expalined...I guess that you won't do that again!? I've come close but haven't done it...yet!!


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## Ace_bridger (Nov 22, 2011)

skooler said:


> Thankfully my EMW 10/15KW watercooled kit is on order


 
Where are you planning on plugging that size charger into when charging at home? Do you know what current it will draw on the supply?

My simple calcs say you'll be drawing in excess of 40A and 60A at 10Kw and 15 Kw respectively, true current draw may well be slightly higher than this...you're gunna need a dedicated circuit installed in your consumer unit.

But, I guess you need a frikin' high power charger to charge that 200Ah pack should you drain it.


----------



## skooler (Mar 26, 2011)

Ace_bridger said:


> Where are you planning on plugging that size charger into when charging at home? Do you know what current it will draw on the supply?
> 
> My simple calcs say you'll be drawing in excess of 40A and 60A at 10Kw and 15 Kw respectively, true current draw may well be slightly higher than this...you're gunna need a dedicated circuit installed in your consumer unit.
> 
> But, I guess you need a frikin' high power charger to charge that 200Ah pack should you drain it.


Just not gonna charge full power at home!

If I'm charging at home the chances are it'll be overnight anyway so wont need to be charging at more than 3KW or so.

If I'm charging at work, I can use the 40A charge station at work (~9kw). 

A client that I regularly visit have a 75A (might be a 63A breaker fitted) charge station so I can use that when I go there.

So in theory I could charge the pack in 3 hours


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## Jordysport (Mar 22, 2009)

skooler said:


> Just not gonna charge full power at home!
> 
> If I'm charging at home the chances are it'll be overnight anyway so wont need to be charging at more than 3KW or so.
> 
> ...


I can get quite easily 60A from my mains at home before tripping it. so i shouldn't see an issue with only 40A


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## Ace_bridger (Nov 22, 2011)

Jordysport said:


> I can get quite easily 60A from my mains at home before tripping it. so i shouldn't see an issue with only 40A


Be a bit careful there Mr Jordysport! Normal ring mains are 16A with cooker circuits being 30A...I think that's correct.

I assume the bad boy charger is adjustable? Otherwise it'll just trip everything out...wonnit?


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## skooler (Mar 26, 2011)

Ace_bridger said:


> Be a bit careful there Mr Jordysport! Normal ring mains are 16A with cooker circuits being 30A...I think that's correct.
> 
> I assume the bad boy charger is adjustable? Otherwise it'll just trip everything out...wonnit?


Yeah its adjustable,

Not sure how yet but it is!

Hoping I can do something where it charges at 13A unless it picks up a J1772 signal, where it'll then charge at 40A.

Then have a manual override for 63A


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## Jordysport (Mar 22, 2009)

Ace_bridger said:


> Be a bit careful there Mr Jordysport! Normal ring mains are 16A with cooker circuits being 30A...I think that's correct.
> 
> I assume the bad boy charger is adjustable? Otherwise it'll just trip everything out...wonnit?


hmmm, well mine must be special then cos i can draw a lot more than 16A on my garage circuit. Trip current is around 80A,


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## Ace_bridger (Nov 22, 2011)

Jordysport said:


> hmmm, well mine must be special then cos i can draw a lot more than 16A on my garage circuit. Trip current is around 80A,


I wonder what your MCB is rated at then? 

You are talking about the current draw from the mains supply and not the current delivered to the batteries, innit?


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## electricmini (Oct 21, 2008)

Ace_bridger said:


> Be a bit careful there Mr Jordysport! Normal ring mains are 16A with cooker circuits being 30A...I think that's correct.


No they're not...

The usual ring main circuits have a breaker rated at 32A
If you have a radial circuit or spur with smaller size cable, it may be fused at 20A or even 16A

(I'm trying to remember my 17th Edition Wiring Regs without going and looking it up.... probably silly of me...  )

My house has a 60A fuse on the incoming supply, so I can't ever draw more than this (bummer). Once I install a dedicated 32A charge socket, I'll need to be careful if the Supra is charging whilst the electric oven is on!


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## skooler (Mar 26, 2011)

electricmini said:


> No they're not...
> 
> The usual ring main circuits have a breaker rated at 32A
> If you have a radial circuit or spur with smaller size cable, it may be fused at 20A or even 16A
> ...


My (18 month old) home has a 400 amp main breaker, never understood why!


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## skooler (Mar 26, 2011)

Just won an auction on ebay....

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Mazda-RX8...8?pt=UK_In_Car_Technology&hash=item4abe7b5c68

It was an optional extra which my car didn't have. The plan is to gut out the inards and replace with a samsung galaxy tab 2.

This will be used with the EMW dash and also be integrated into the stereo to give me music player, nav, guages, OBDII etc.

Yet another little side project!


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## Jordysport (Mar 22, 2009)

skooler said:


> Just won an auction on ebay....
> 
> http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Mazda-RX8...8?pt=UK_In_Car_Technology&hash=item4abe7b5c68
> 
> ...


Sweet!! gotta love and hate eBay auctions i'd hate to take my pulse at the end of one!


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## Ace_bridger (Nov 22, 2011)

Another side project!! 

My 100 year old house has a 100A main fuse and my socket ring main has a 32A MCB on it...I stand corrected!


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## electricmini (Oct 21, 2008)

skooler said:


> My (18 month old) home has a 400 amp main breaker, never understood why!


400A ?? That's a hell of a big MCB for a house - unless you have electric storage heating?

Even modern USA houses only have 200A service

Having said that, we used to have 3-phase coming into the house here, but they took it away when the supply cable *blew up* under the stairs...
...luckily the fault was the supplier's side of the meter, so the electric company paid for the work!


----------



## Jordysport (Mar 22, 2009)

electricmini said:


> 400A ?? That's a hell of a big MCB for a house - unless you have electric storage heating?
> 
> Even modern USA houses only have 200A service
> 
> ...


I've had electric heating in most of the houses i've lived in, only very recently have we had mains central heating. which is rare as most have a gas tank around 'ere. probably why i can still get some high outputs from when it wasn't on mains central .


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## skooler (Mar 26, 2011)

Yep! no idea, it's rented so I don't get involved!

This is what I'm aiming for with the tablet/nav.

http://www.rx8club.com/interior-aud...et-2-7-0-installed-navihood-completed-239266/


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## Ace_bridger (Nov 22, 2011)

Nice!!

I'm going for the KISS approach with my build for 3 reasons...a) time b) money and c) I'm stupid!


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## Ziggythewiz (May 16, 2010)

Ace_bridger said:


> I'm going for the KISS approach with my build for 3 reasons...a) time b) money and c) I'm stupid!


And when you find a, b, and either alleviate c or compensate with extra a + b you can always continue the project


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## beechdan (Nov 25, 2012)

Just read this thread from beginning to end and loved the whole thing!

Definitely subscribed I'm in the (very) early planning stages of a conversion and the rx8 is one of the cars in my short list at the moment

Love to see all the great work you've done!


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## skooler (Mar 26, 2011)

beechdan said:


> Just read this thread from beginning to end and loved the whole thing!
> 
> Definitely subscribed I'm in the (very) early planning stages of a conversion and the rx8 is one of the cars in my short list at the moment
> 
> Love to see all the great work you've done!


Where abouts are you?

If your local enough then your more than welcome to have a ride (as is anyone else)

Quick Update, 

My charger has returned from China, UK customs put it straight through with no fees so its cost me about £200 total to have it repaired 

Will hook it up thismorning, charge while i'm at work and I can pick up where I left off at 5pm.


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## skooler (Mar 26, 2011)

Quick Update,

My pack was down to 26v after no charge for 3/4 weeks (DCDC must have been eating it again).

When connecting the TC charger back up it refused to start (low voltage I hope).

I have since started manually topping up each individual battery to 12.00v once they are all at exactly 12v I'll charge with the TC charger.

That started last night and I'm now on battery 7...

I have also purchased a garrett turbo from the EVTV 'blow me 9' and a meanwell DCDC converter.

I just dont trust the server fans enough, even though they have been faultless.

Oh and a heater 

Thats it!

Hopefully get a full charge into it by the morning and be back on the road!!!


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## tylerwatts (Feb 9, 2012)

Aweosme Mike. I really like your conversion. Am thinking whether to start small or just go for it with something practical and flexible like this (assuming the use of Li of course...).

Do you have any performance measurements yet, such as 0-30/40/50mph figures, using different gear ratios etc?


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## Ace_bridger (Nov 22, 2011)

Good news Mike. I hope the batteries haven't suffered being low in this chilly weather. My van battery is dead after not being driven for a couple of weeks...maybe 3!!

Dropped you a PM.


----------



## skooler (Mar 26, 2011)

Ace_bridger said:


> Good news Mike. I hope the batteries haven't suffered being low in this chilly weather. My van battery is dead after not being driven for a couple of weeks...maybe 3!!
> 
> Dropped you a PM.


Got it Adam, reply sent 

Have been getting around 330WH/Mile (measured from the controller) in town - Anything up to 40MPH(ish), stop start etc)

I thrash the thing everywhere so that explains a lot!

Measure from the plug its closer to 1300WH/mile!

anyway, back to charging batteries in the cold!


----------



## Ziggythewiz (May 16, 2010)

skooler said:


> Have been getting around 330WH/Mile (measured from the controller) in town - Anything up to 40MPH(ish), stop start etc)
> 
> Measure from the plug its closer to 1300WH/mile!


That's quite a difference! Any idea how much is lost in the charger vs the lead?


----------



## skooler (Mar 26, 2011)

Pretty sure its the lead,

The charger only puts in 12KWH at the most on a charge from what feels like flat (i.e. the car is crawling) so measured from the wall its really low, but totting up the controller logs and working out the time it is running gives me the much lower figure, 330 seems right too


----------



## Ziggythewiz (May 16, 2010)

I dunno how accurate counting from the logs would be...I wonder if the evnetics guys have tried that.

A JLD404 would fit great in a stocking!


----------



## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

Ziggythewiz said:


> I dunno how accurate counting from the logs would be...I wonder if the evnetics guys have tried that.


Counting Ah using the logfiles is fairly accurate. Time slices are in 10ms increments and the current sensor accuracy in the Jr is about 1% at the high end of the amp range and generally no worse than 5% off at the low end of the range (the Soliton1 and Shiva controllers have comparable accuracy at the high end but much worse accuracy on the low end of their respective current ranges). It's easy enough to do a quick and dirty integration by just multiplying motor amps * duty cycle * 10ms and adding all of the entries together (if you want to get fancy you can do a Euler integration, or really fancy, a trapezoidal).

That said, I've warned many a time before that the current and voltage measurement functions in our controllers are not lab grade instruments...


----------



## Ziggythewiz (May 16, 2010)

Tesseract said:


> Counting Ah using the logfiles is fairly accurate. Time slices are in 10ms increments and the current sensor accuracy in the Jr is about 1% at the high end of the amp range and generally no worse than 5% off at the low end of the range


Good to know. Guess that's not the culprit. Floodies suck, but they're not that terrible.


----------



## skooler (Mar 26, 2011)

Thanks tess, that's exactly how I did it  (using excel)

I'm using Sealed Lead Calcium batteries and Im 99% they are the reason, only another month or so to go with those though!

On the progress side, Got to battery 10 last night and decided to call it a night when I noticed frost forming on everything!

I will finish off balancing the batteries tonight and hopefully get the full charge into the car tomorrow ready to drive for the weekend 

I spent £320 (~$500) on petrol (gas) last month after spending nothing the month before!

Cheers,

Mike


----------



## tylerwatts (Feb 9, 2012)

Sounds good Mike! What battery pack do you have on order? I'm very excited to follow your progress.

Do you have a total amount of Electricity units you've used in place of the fuel? How much was that? Obviously electricity is not free, so some cost was incurred, though I'#m expecting it is alot less that the cost of Petrol!

I ask mainly as I was told a little while back that the cost of electricity in the UK makes it alot less beneficial to convert to an EV when you can get a really efficient ICE car that would cost the same to run (apart form road tax...)


----------



## Ziggythewiz (May 16, 2010)

skooler said:


> On the progress side, Got to battery 10 last night and decided to call it a night when I noticed frost forming on everything!


Just hope the first ones are near 12V when you finish the string...I see the makings of a great cartoon here.


----------



## skooler (Mar 26, 2011)

tylerwatts said:


> Sounds good Mike! What battery pack do you have on order? I'm very excited to follow your progress.
> 
> Do you have a total amount of Electricity units you've used in place of the fuel? How much was that? Obviously electricity is not free, so some cost was incurred, though I'#m expecting it is alot less that the cost of Petrol!
> 
> I ask mainly as I was told a little while back that the cost of electricity in the UK makes it alot less beneficial to convert to an EV when you can get a really efficient ICE car that would cost the same to run (apart form road tax...)


To be clear, it's as good as ordered but the money hasn't been sent yet.

I am ordering 75 of the Sinopoly 200AH cells (48KWH total).

The charge station at work shows about 150KWH on the meter - I am the only person to use it, I would guess this is 80% of my total charging to date, the rest being at home.

I make that about £25 of electric for 350 miles - would have been around £80 in petrol on the same car.

Don't forget that these batteries that I am currently using are hideously inefficient so I would expect more like £5 per 100 miles at current prices.

But that's irrelevant as I charge for free at work!

Yes the cost of electricity is high in the UK, but so is the cost of petrol so it balances itself out!

Ziggy,

If you've jynxed me!.....


----------



## Ace_bridger (Nov 22, 2011)

Roughly...my car costs me 2p per mile compared to 25p permile for the petrol equivalent (based on 0.10p /Kwh, £6.50 per gallon and 30 mpg) ish...approximately...roughly...ish

Mucho cheapness.


----------



## Ziggythewiz (May 16, 2010)

Yup, similar here. My gas is ~ 10x/mile compared to electricity. For my short commute it's under $0.50/day, so I just round to 0


----------



## tylerwatts (Feb 9, 2012)

Hahaha thanks guys, good to know!

Skooler

Those are HUGE batteries, and loads of them sir! Have you got a plan to fit them in the car yet? Might be an idea to try Matthieu's XBox Kinect 3d scanner trick to scan the car chassis to simulate the best option. just ideas...


----------



## skooler (Mar 26, 2011)

Actually Tyler, they are very energy dense!

But yes, there are loads of them, I can definately fit 60 in the rear and front box, maybe a few more. I then have a maximum of 15 to fit under the rear seats (fuel tank) and in the boot.

have you got a link to that 3d scanner idea? might be worth a go!


----------



## skooler (Mar 26, 2011)

A few snaps of me and Dave freezing to try and get the batteries back up to 12v each.

Now on battery 11


----------



## Ziggythewiz (May 16, 2010)

I don't know how your batteries behave, but mine will go to 12V at just 10% SOC, so you may not need to charge each one completely, just bring them up enough that the real charger can do it's thing without crapping out.


----------



## skooler (Mar 26, 2011)

Ziggythewiz said:


> I don't know how your batteries behave, but mine will go to 12V at just 10% SOC, so you may not need to charge each one completely, just bring them up enough that the real charger can do it's thing without crapping out.


Exactly what I'm doing zig!

It seems to take about 15AH to get each one to 12.00v which is more or less in line with yours.


----------



## Ziggythewiz (May 16, 2010)

Oh, ok. It sounded like you were spending a day on just a battery or two.


----------



## skooler (Mar 26, 2011)

No Not at all, just havent had the time.

Anyway.... finished battery 12, plugged it in and it lives!

The TC charger went straight to 175v which seems odd, it has been falling since but went to yellow flash (80%) after about 5 minutes.

I'm guess its just having a dump about the voltage being so low? Lead calcium is good to over 15volts per battery so I'm not too worried, probs about 12 hours of charging on my 1500w charger to fill my 18KWH pack and then I can go for a drive


----------



## Ace_bridger (Nov 22, 2011)

Good to hear you're back on track...mine let me down (or to be more accurate, I let it down) last night on the way home from the pub when it was -2°C and I had ice on the inside of the windows!!

I'll put the gory details on my thread.

Had to drive the Audi today, boring but warm!!!


----------



## skooler (Mar 26, 2011)

Right then!
The car has been on charge overnight and lives again!

I'm going to run it down and top it up a couple of times today to make sure all the batteries can gas if they need to before i put all of the covers back in place.

I received my replacement vacuum switch in the post a couple of weeks ago (the last setup was sticky). Not sure if it was the switch or the 4700uF cap I was using to hold the relay open.

I purchased a Durite 5 second time delay relay which I plan to connect to the negative leg of the switch.

This relay will then switch a second standard 40A relay which will turn on the pump.

The delay relay is only rated for 10 amps which is cutting it close - Hence the use of a second relay.

I'm using a 5A fuse on the switching side and a 10 or 15A fuse on the pump side.

Would someone mind giving my scrawl an idiot check?










Cheers,

Mike


----------



## electricmini (Oct 21, 2008)

skooler said:


> Right then!
> 
> 
> I purchased a Durite 5 second time delay relay which I plan to connect to the negative leg of the switch.
> ...


Schematic looks fine to me - except one thing:

Maybe put some diodes across the relay coils to absorb the inductive kick when the relay(s) switch off.
This will slow down the relay's opening but it will help your switch live longer 
(or you could use transient suppressors instead,
24V rated ones work well in a 12V automotive circuit)

Richard


----------



## skooler (Mar 26, 2011)

Thanks Richard.

Wired it up earlier and it all worked perfectly, left it cycling for a couple of hours while I did some other things and it was still working as expected.

I'll take up your idea and add some diodes when I get chance to buy some.

I drove the car home for the first time in 4 weeks today. forgot how could driving an EV feels!


----------



## Ace_bridger (Nov 22, 2011)

skooler said:


> I drove the car home for the first time in 4 weeks today. forgot how could driving an EV feels!


EV

Mine should be back in action tomorrow...I like driving my van but prefer my Golf!!


----------



## Ziggythewiz (May 16, 2010)

Ace_bridger said:


> I like driving my van but prefer my Golf!!


It gets so you feel ashamed for taking the van for whatever reason...in my case about $5/day.


----------



## Ace_bridger (Nov 22, 2011)

Ziggythewiz said:


> It gets so you feel ashamed for taking the van for whatever reason...in my case about $5/day.


The van does have some appeal though, it has a Subaru Impreza engine and a lovely exhaust note...no, bad bad bad!!!

Sorry for going off topic Mike!!


----------



## skooler (Mar 26, 2011)

Took the car to the supermaket 2 miles away last night. Got there fine but the car really struggled to get back.

Cant wait to get the lithium in!


----------



## electricmini (Oct 21, 2008)

skooler said:


> Took the car to the supermaket 2 miles away last night. Got there fine but the car really struggled to get back.
> 
> Cant wait to get the lithium in!


Yep, this is the feeling I get with the Supra - I reckon it's got a 5 mile range at the moment 

I want lithiums too...


----------



## Ace_bridger (Nov 22, 2011)

skooler said:


> Took the car to the supermaket 2 miles away last night. Got there fine but the car really struggled to get back.
> 
> Cant wait to get the lithium in!


Once they're in you'll have an actual electric car rtaher than a science project like my lead beauty!



electricmini said:


> Yep, this is the feeling I get with the Supra - I reckon it's got a 5 mile range at the moment
> 
> I want lithiums too...


What batteries do you have in the Supra and how old are they? I'l kind of hoping that my Trojans will last!! Fingers crossed.


----------



## electricmini (Oct 21, 2008)

Ace_bridger said:


> What batteries do you have in the Supra and how old are they? I'l kind of hoping that my Trojans will last!! Fingers crossed.


They're 120Ah flooded marine batteries from Costco
(Bosch 12V units). I wasn't expecting much from them anyway,
since they are not real deep-cyclic batteries.

I'm hoping around 100Ah capacity LiFePo4 cells will suit the Supe
(I'm gonna need more than the current 156V to get any sort of decent performance though - so I might shoot for 288V worth at 60Ah)


----------



## Ziggythewiz (May 16, 2010)

Ace_bridger said:


> Once they're in you'll have an actual electric car rtaher than a science project like my lead beauty!


Lead sled, heavyweight, fatty, slug, or similar are all appropriate terms for a lead EV, but referring to a tried and proven technology as a science project is just wrong.


----------



## Ace_bridger (Nov 22, 2011)

Ziggythewiz said:


> Lead sled, heavyweight, fatty, slug, or similar are all appropriate terms for a lead EV, but referring to a tried and proven technology as a science project is just wrong.


I know, my tongue was firmly in my cheek when I was quoting Jack R then!! I happen to think that lead was the right decision based on my requirements...lithium would have been way over the top performance and price-wise. I used to work in a hospital and all of their site vehicles were lead powered and were great little work horses!


----------



## AndreasV (May 20, 2013)

Hello Scooler.
I use Google translate, so please excuse my bad pronunciation 
I follow your RX8 conversion for some time and also wants to start a conversion.
I have two questions to you.
Did you have to make a Elekro magnetic investigation?
How did you solved the problem with the CAN bus line.
ABS, ASR and steering?
Can you help me?
Greetings Andreas.


----------



## skooler (Mar 26, 2011)

Andreas,

We don't need an EMI in the UK. I believe you need to use CE marked components, such as the Soliton1/Jr and Kostov motor. I'm not sure if you need a test in Germany.

No need to touch the CanBus network unless you want to get the dash gauges to work. 

I paid somebody to make a controller for the power steering. It basically sends the canbus signals that the EPS controller expects to receive.

ABS surprisingly just works!

I never solved the traction control - I don't like it anyway!

Cheers,

Mike


----------



## AndreasV (May 20, 2013)

skooler said:


> Andreas,
> 
> We don't need an EMI in the UK. I believe you need to use CE marked components, such as the Soliton1/Jr and Kostov motor. I'm not sure if you need a test in Germany.
> 
> ...


Hello Mike.
In Germany, unfortunately, we need an EMI. Otherwise no approval. bureaucrats 
Thanks, that's what wanted to hear ish.
What makes their control unit for steering exactly?
Greetings Andreas


----------



## mk1man2000 (Oct 18, 2012)

Hi Mike, I've recently had the greatest pleasure and honer of being able to finally own Adams ex (was also once Davids car too) lovely one of a kind dream VW Golf called Voltswagen, but it does need a lot of TLC and work tho.

I've been informed by Adam that you may have something that I may desperately need and suspect that your item is available for sale, either way please do contact me urgently on: [email protected] and my deepest apologies for destroying your tread.


----------



## Ace_bridger (Nov 22, 2011)

miss her


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## sexstrap (Feb 25, 2013)

Hi again Skooler

You are definitely going to get bored of my questioning over the next few months ;-)

I just watched the video for EVTV and you mentioned your power steering solution (and a warning to disconnect the power steering motor before powering up, thanks for this Warning, duly noted)

Can you elaborate on the circuit you had built to solve the power steering can-bus signal requirement, or post a link to the guy you had build it, will he build more for cash? or is he willing to provide the schematic? I am definitely going to need one of those soon.

Thanks

Graham



skooler said:


> Forgot to say,
> 
> A couple of weeks ago John Hardy, his son and two of his son's friends came to visit the car.
> 
> ...


----------



## skooler (Mar 26, 2011)

sexstrap said:


> Hi again Skooler
> 
> You are definitely going to get bored of my questioning over the next few months ;-)
> 
> ...


Not a problem.

PM sent


----------



## MalcolmB (Jun 10, 2008)

Hi Mike

I'm hoping you can shed some light on a problem I have. I had a 3.6 kW Pod Point solo charging point installed last week, free of charge. I've fitted the AVC2 unit and a J1772 inlet (both from Modular EV Power) to my Mini, and it all seems to work fine initially. The charge point light turns green, the onboard chargers start up and between them draw a steady 10A. But then after about 20 seconds of charging normally I hear the relay click on the Pod Point, it shuts down and the red LED comes on.

I'm using two isolated Curtis chargers, each rated at 1.4 kW, wired in series and each feeding half of my pack.

It's not a problem with the 12V supply to the AVC2, as the green proximity LED on the module remains lit. It seems odd that the Pod Point should cut out once charging is well underway. Any ideas?

Cheers
Malcolm


----------



## skooler (Mar 26, 2011)

MalcolmB said:


> Hi Mike
> 
> I'm hoping you can shed some light on a problem I have. I had a 3.6 kW Pod Point solo charging point installed last week, free of charge. I've fitted the AVC2 unit and a J1772 inlet (both from Modular EV Power) to my Mini, and it all seems to work fine initially. The charge point light turns green, the onboard chargers start up and between them draw a steady 10A. But then after about 20 seconds of charging normally I hear the relay click on the Pod Point, it shuts down and the red LED comes on.
> 
> ...


Hi Malcom

Same issue with Podpoint and Chargemaster for me.

Try downgrading the firmware on the chargestation to before September last year if you can.

suggest reading the below.
http://modularevpower.com/J1772_2012.htm

Cheers,

Mike


----------



## skooler (Mar 26, 2011)

Right...

Time for an update!

As many of you know, I have been supplying Sinopoly Lifepo4 cells to converters in the UK and EU. My first two batches for the RX8 ended up getting sold!

I recently took a few more pallets of stock, about half of which is now sold. This time, eighty 100AH cells (~26KWH) will remain mine .



















I have also sold the lead acid batteries used for testing on ebay (£500!) and the money from that will be used to build/ have built three aluminum boxes to hold the cells. One will sit below the boot/trunk floor, another behind the front bumper (full height of the engine bay) and another on the component shelf to hold the various cabling.

I have also purchased a 400w meanwell power supply to use as a dcdc converter. A garrett turbo to help cool the motor, an MES RM3 4KW heater, a tonne of liquid cooling components and have been building the EMW 12KW charger.

I'm hoping that it'll all be together in the next month or so.

more progress to follow....

Cheers,

Mike


----------



## tylerwatts (Feb 9, 2012)

Excellent to hear Mike! Will 400w be enough for the 12v circuit? And will your front box be outside the crumple zone? What are your thoughts for safety and impact protection?


----------



## electricmini (Oct 21, 2008)

MalcolmB said:


> I'm hoping you can shed some light on a problem I have. I had a 3.6 kW Pod Point solo charging point installed last week, free of charge. I've fitted the AVC2 unit and a J1772 inlet (both from Modular EV Power) to my Mini, and it all seems to work fine initially. The charge point light turns green, the onboard chargers start up and between them draw a steady 10A. But then after about 20 seconds of charging normally I hear the relay click on the Pod Point, it shuts down and the red LED comes on.
> 
> I'm using two isolated Curtis chargers, each rated at 1.4 kW, wired in series and each feeding half of my pack.


Hi Malcolm

I've had a similar problem when I was using multiple PSUs to charge the electric Mini pickup. It would always trip the RCD after 10 to 30 seconds.
My guess was that the PSUs had some leakage current (normal, due to their mains input filters) and if you had too many connected to one plug, the RCD would trip out.
Maybe your chargers have significant earth leakage current, and the RCD in the Pod Point is tripping?
Can you try it with just one charger connected, and see if it works?

H.T.H.

Richard


----------



## MalcolmB (Jun 10, 2008)

Mike: Great news about the cells; I'm looking forward to seeing them in all place!

Richard: Many thanks, that sounds like a likely cause. I'll test it with just one charger and see what happens. I'll continue this on my own build thread instead of messing up Mike's.


----------



## skooler (Mar 26, 2011)

Hi Tyler,

400w was fine with my old chennic DCDC converter. I'm using a 60AH Sinopoly accessory pack which probably helps.

Just double checked and I have the 600w (50amp) meanwell unit.


----------



## tylerwatts (Feb 9, 2012)

Ahead 600 sounds better. What about the battery box? I looked back and you never really showed the box clearly. Is it inside the crumple zone or part of it?


----------



## pavel174 (Mar 7, 2012)

skooler said:


> Not a problem.
> 
> PM sent


Hello
I'm from Russia, for your Mazda's conversion to electric car watch from the beginning, Mazda will begin to alter its autumn now I collect informations components and also faced the problem of the steering rack, you can follow any responses to place a link to the guy that you did a control unit, it may be possible to order more cash flow management steering rack.
Sorry for the translation of Google translator.


----------



## drgrieve (Apr 14, 2011)

Hi skooler,

Do you have a website for you cell sales?

Also have you performed any testing (on video?) on these cells. I haven't seen any third party testing on the Sinopoly cells. 

Just the basic stuff. Capacity tests. Sag under load tests (5C or similar). Interested to know any differences between the new Calb grey cells and these.

Thanks.


----------



## mk1man2000 (Oct 18, 2012)

Hi Mike did I send you an Email to tell you that I've also got a MES-DEA Riscaldatore Type RM3 EV electric vehicle Car Van fluid cab heater warmer for sale.


----------



## skooler (Mar 26, 2011)

The front box will 'hang' below the front crossmember which in turn is connected to the frame rails. This goes right to the front of the car and is the most substantial structure there. It sits a few inches behind the bumper and was previously occupied by a radiator mounted diagonally with lots of empty space (think 2 cubic feet).

I guess that would make it the crumple zone!

One of the youtube videos shows the old front box which occupies the same space.

Don't worry, there will also be lots of pictures to show how it all goes together!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q75ze3037ng

mk1man, Afraid I already have a heater sorted. 

pavel174, I'll send you a PM


----------



## skooler (Mar 26, 2011)

drgrieve said:


> Hi skooler,
> 
> Do you have a website for you cell sales?
> 
> ...


Hi drgrieve,

No website yet, I'm waiting for some artwork and the company to be registered before letting the website go live. I'd rather do it a;; right first time around!

The cell sales are kind of a hobby business at the moment. I make virtually nothing from it (incredibly low margins) but it helps to get a better price for enthusiasts (and myself) so it's all worthwhile. The eventual plan is that I have a small business offering a few unique products and batteries (RX8 conversion kit with Power steering and soliton to dash integration anyone?).

I did send four of the 200AH cells to Jack Rickard for testing on EVTV. He has sat on them for about 6 months now so I guess it'll never happen (he probably sees it as a conflict of interest - understandably. I have seen them on the shelf in the background a few times...

When I have a spare few hours I'll see what I can cobble together. I have some impressive primitive numbers but I'll keep these to myself until I can prove them.

Cheers,

Mike


----------



## electricmini (Oct 21, 2008)

skooler said:


> Hi drgrieve,
> 
> When I have a spare few hours I'll see what I can cobble together. I have some impressive primitive numbers but I'll keep these to myself until I can prove them.



I've got a spare Link10/Emeter with the RS232 option fitted, if you want to borrow it for capacity testing.

Richard


----------



## skooler (Mar 26, 2011)

electricmini said:


> I've got a spare Link10/Emeter with the RS232 option fitted, if you want to borrow it for capacity testing.
> 
> Richard



Hi Richard,

Not familiar with that, will it test capacity and discharge rate (5c/500A)??

In all honesty I'm going to be struggling for time with everything going on. 
Fancy testing one for me???


----------



## electricmini (Oct 21, 2008)

skooler said:


> Hi Richard,
> 
> Not familiar with that, will it test capacity and discharge rate (5c/500A)??
> 
> ...


I'm sure I could rig something together - probably a whole bunch of coat hangers in a large bucket of water! 
Or maybe steel pallet strapping...

The Emeter will count the AmpHours in/out, and I have a 500A shunt for it, together with MicroRobotics board which is easy to program (I already have code for a battery tester/cycler somewhere)

Sure, if you want to set up a test - might be better to use several cells in series, as I can also use the PowerLab8 for recharging

PM me if you want to discuss further....

P.S. I may be after some cells soon, especially if I can get 500A discharges out of them! Probably for the Electric Supra v2.0
(the original one is about to be killed by rust)


----------



## skooler (Mar 26, 2011)

electricmini said:


> I'm sure I could rig something together - probably a whole bunch of coat hangers in a large bucket of water!
> Or maybe steel pallet strapping...
> 
> The Emeter will count the AmpHours in/out, and I have a 500A shunt for it, together with MicroRobotics board which is easy to program (I already have code for a battery tester/cycler somewhere)
> ...



All sounds good. Will 4 cells do it? I can pop them in the post tomorrow, same address I assume?

Definitely worth finding a new doner once the tinworm has found its way in...

Cheers,

Mike


----------



## electricmini (Oct 21, 2008)

skooler said:


> All sounds good. Will 4 cells do it? I can pop them in the post tomorrow, same address I assume?
> 
> Definitely worth finding a new doner once the tinworm has found its way in...
> 
> ...


Yep, 4 should be fine

Do you want me to collect them, instead of having to post them?

(I still have that 60Ah green cell, if you want that one back)

Richard


----------



## skooler (Mar 26, 2011)

electricmini said:


> Yep, 4 should be fine
> 
> Do you want me to collect them, instead of having to post them?
> 
> ...


I don't mind either way. Probably easier for me to pop them in the post in all honesty - working silly hours atm.

hold onto the green one until we have these tested 

Cheers,

Mike


----------



## electricmini (Oct 21, 2008)

skooler said:


> I don't mind either way. Probably easier for me to pop them in the post in all honesty - working silly hours atm.


_I know that feeling!_



skooler said:


> hold onto the green one until we have these tested


Ok

Probably best to send them to the same address as last time
(GX Design)

Richard


----------



## mk1man2000 (Oct 18, 2012)

Hi Mike, Ive been contacted by the producer of Fifth Gear, they badly want me to feature my electric VW Golf in one of there programs, and seem to be very interested, i did mention that I had a few other EV friends too, yourself and CTS that might be interested, do let me know if you want to star on TV, just wanted to ask you first before i pass on your details.

Mk1man2000...


----------



## skooler (Mar 26, 2011)

I'm interested! Let me know what you need from me


----------



## mk1man2000 (Oct 18, 2012)

skooler said:


> I'm interested! Let me know what you need from me



I do already have your Email address so i'll forward that to them if you don't mind Mike?


----------



## skooler (Mar 26, 2011)

Not an issue  thanks


----------



## mk1man2000 (Oct 18, 2012)

skooler said:


> Not an issue  thanks


Sorted Mike, you should be hearing from the producer of Fifth Gear any time now, good luck and please do keep me updated.


----------



## skooler (Mar 26, 2011)

mk1man2000 said:


> Sorted Mike, you should be hearing from the producer of Fifth Gear any time now, good luck and please do keep me updated.


Sweet!

By the way... I have the dcdc converter on my list of things to do this week if you are still interested?

Cheers,

Mike


----------



## skooler (Mar 26, 2011)

Finally ordered the new aluminium battery boxes:

I spent the last few weeks measuring and trial fitting cardboard mockups, making tweaks, drawings etc and trialling again. I'm now happy with the layout and have commisioned a highly reputable tig welding workshop to build them.

Will update once they arrive...


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## skooler (Mar 26, 2011)

I suppose it's time for an update.

I got the new 36 *100AH cell rear aluminium battery box in over the weekend. This replaces the old steel 'rack' that I used with the lead. In short it's much lighter and a much cleaner install. All I need to do is fabricate a lid which will form the boot floor, mount the cable glands and mount the fuse.

It's probably worth noting that the corners are boxed in as the rear subframe would intrude the box in those corners.










I cut out the boot floor for the original rack. This opening has been further opened out to the frame rails and the seam welded along them to keep the strength. 50x50x3mm angles with captive nuts installed have then been added for additional strength and to provide something for the aluminium box to bolt to.

This box is a bit of a pain because the anti roll bar, in it's original location would intrude the box and effectively reduce it's capacity by 9 cells. Therefore, my previous solution was to mount the anti roll bar to the bottom of the rack but this is no longer possible as the aluminium box doesn't really have the same strength as the old steel one. The solution was to create a steel frame that drops down around the aluminium box for the sole purpose of supporting the anti roll bar. Absolutely solid.


















The box will need a lid and I could do with a new boot floor. I am thinking of adding a thin (<12mm thick) carpeted plywood sheet above the box. It will have notches installed on the underside to stop it sliding side to side and some strong magnets to hold it in place and stop it jumping around. I'll then add a handle (such as below) so that it can be lifted for battery maintenance and to show off the cells.

http://www.the75andztclub.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?t=11118





























I have made a start on mounting the front lower box. More on that over the weekend.

Cheers,

Mike


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## mira9_cz (Feb 27, 2013)

Really nice job! I hope mine will look also this nice. Mike what about BMS? Do you plan to put some BMS to your Mazda? I do, but recently one possible issue came to my mind. 

All BMS systems have balancing modules at each cell. There is usually some FET transistor, which heats a lot when balancing at the stronger cells. If you want to extend lifetime and you put small passive aluminum heatsink at the FET, it produces even more hear. 
I work for GWL-Power as a technician and I can safely tell you that LiFePo4 can work good up to lets say 80 C. However I'm not sure how much heat can BMS modules produce at very hot Summer when balance charging. Perhaps even more if you consider the fact that in interior 50C at the sun is pretty normal. 
So I was thinking about putting at least some computer fans to the aluminum box before assembling them into the vehicle to have it prepared in case of big heat as soon as I will buy BMS. What do you think? Did you considered some kind of traction pack cooling yourselves?


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## skooler (Mar 26, 2011)

mira9_cz said:


> Really nice job! I hope mine will look also this nice. Mike what about BMS? Do you plan to put some BMS to your Mazda? I do, but recently one possible issue came to my mind.
> 
> All BMS systems have balancing modules at each cell. There is usually some FET transistor, which heats a lot when balancing at the stronger cells. If you want to extend lifetime and you put small passive aluminum heatsink at the FET, it produces even more hear.
> I work for GWL-Power as a technician and I can safely tell you that LiFePo4 can work good up to lets say 80 C. However I'm not sure how much heat can BMS modules produce at very hot Summer when balance charging. Perhaps even more if you consider the fact that in interior 50C at the sun is pretty normal.
> So I was thinking about putting at least some computer fans to the aluminum box before assembling them into the vehicle to have it prepared in case of big heat as soon as I will buy BMS. What do you think? Did you considered some kind of traction pack cooling yourselves?


Thanks,

I wont be installing a BMS - I like my car uncharred and cash in my wallet.

I'll be bottom balancing as per the below link:

http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showthread.php?t=85458

Cheers,

Mike


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## mira9_cz (Feb 27, 2013)

I'm well aware of your opinion about BMS and I respect that.

I was asking more about if you considered some cooling for your battery box since it is very nice job done and it would be pity to modify it in future if need for cooling would appear. I guess I already know the answer


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## skooler (Mar 26, 2011)

mira9_cz said:


> I'm well aware of your opinion about BMS and I respect that.
> 
> I was asking more about if you considered some cooling for your battery box since it is very nice job done and it would be pity to modify it in future if need for cooling would appear. I guess I already know the answer


Apologies, I misunderstood your question.

I don't think the issue will be cooling the cells. Some tests have shown LiFePO4 is more efficient at 40+ degrees C. The issue will be keeping them warm in the winter.

In the UK it is not uncommon to go below freezing. There are two ways of looking at this. I can heat the cells, which would be costly and complicated. 

But another way of looking at this problem is that do I really want to be driving a rear wheel drive sports car with monstrous torque when it is below freezing with snow/ice/black ice on the ground? I had go at this last winter and although donuts in an empty carpark is great fun it isn't exactly practical, and twitchy would be an understatement!

This picture was taken the morning after a 'play' in a carpark.


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## mira9_cz (Feb 27, 2013)

skooler said:


> Apologies, I misunderstood your question.
> 
> I don't think the issue will be cooling the cells. Some tests have shown LiFePO4 is more efficient at 40+ degrees C. The issue will be keeping them warm in the winter.
> 
> ...



Thanks for reply. Yes, you are right that driving powerful RWD car at winter is not best experience. Another issue is salt and corrosion afterwards. Also heating ruins driving range, it sure seems like it is better to have normal ICE car as a winter driver. 

Anyway in past we have done some tests with frozen LiFePo4. At the link below you can check the result graph. Very nice fact is that LiFePo4 will heat itself the more current you are taking from it: http://gwl-power.tumblr.com/post/3421912802/lfp20ah-deep-frozen-test-18-deg-c-the-test


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## dougingraham (Jul 26, 2011)

mira9_cz said:


> Also heating ruins driving range, it sure seems like it is better to have normal ICE car as a winter driver.


I know what you are saying but I think it would be better to have a winter appropriate EV and an EV sports car for the rest of the time. It should never be better to have an ICE powered car.



mira9_cz said:


> Anyway in past we have done some tests with frozen LiFePo4. At the link below you can check the result graph. Very nice fact is that LiFePo4 will heat itself the more current you are taking from it: http://gwl-power.tumblr.com/post/3421912802/lfp20ah-deep-frozen-test-18-deg-c-the-test


I thought this might be the case but I drove all last winter in conditions as cold as -7C and was not able to make this work. I have insulated battery boxes and the temperature rise in a 15-20 minute commute is not enough to overcome the voltage sag. The motor controller would limit the current because the voltage would sag so terribly. I set the voltage floor to 1.6 volts per cell and would still hit that if I tried to pull more than around 5C. The batteries would not self heat enough to do any good when that cold. Good idea but doesn't work. The car was still drivable so for this season I am going to add resistive heat under the cells and try to keep them above 5C where they seem to work pretty normally.


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## mira9_cz (Feb 27, 2013)

dougingraham said:


> I know what you are saying but I think it would be better to have a winter appropriate EV and an EV sports car for the rest of the time. It should never be better to have an ICE powered car.
> 
> I thought this might be the case but I drove all last winter in conditions as cold as -7C and was not able to make this work. I have insulated battery boxes and the temperature rise in a 15-20 minute commute is not enough to overcome the voltage sag. The motor controller would limit the current because the voltage would sag so terribly. I set the voltage floor to 1.6 volts per cell and would still hit that if I tried to pull more than around 5C. The batteries would not self heat enough to do any good when that cold. Good idea but doesn't work. The car was still drivable so for this season I am going to add resistive heat under the cells and try to keep them above 5C where they seem to work pretty normally.


Well I had finished working at our electric Dong Feng test van at the end of last winter. Several times I had left it outside for a night. At the morning in temperatures about -5 to 0 the van driven all way to my job with usual performance. Truth is I did not pushed the van hard since it was just finished and I did not know what to expect. 90 Ah 144V pack built from 48 Winston 90Ah cells was used in steel box with only 2mm thick rubber carpet under the cells, no other insulation. I experienced no unusual sag and I had Soliton Jr. limited to 250 Amps motor current. This is totally opposite experience then yours but I also did not pushed cells more then 3C for sure (which also did not forced them to heat so much). Anyway this winter I will put more effort into test of LiFePo4 performance in freezing conditions since the van is finished and driving great.


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## ScottyDont (Sep 29, 2013)

Hey Skooler any updates to your build? I am keen to see how much space your batteries take up in the front. 
The rx8 is top of my list for a conversion if I ever start one, and I am blown away at how cheap your donor was. 
This has been a very detailed thread and I look forward to seeing the car finished.


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## skooler (Mar 26, 2011)

ScottyDont said:


> Hey Skooler any updates to your build? I am keen to see how much space your batteries take up in the front.
> The rx8 is top of my list for a conversion if I ever start one, and I am blown away at how cheap your donor was.
> This has been a very detailed thread and I look forward to seeing the car finished.




RX8s are cheap:
http://www.autotrader.co.uk/search/...esearchad/used,nearlynew,new/quicksearch/true

Updates? Yep!

Front boxes are in, batteries are in, all wired up and driving again.

I've been very busy recently so apologies for the lack of updates. Hopefully I can catch up a bit now:

Only issue has been charging. I need to check the current sensor on the EMW charger but simply haven't had chance, currently it just runs at full whack which is fine on a 63amp supply but not much else!

*Rear Box
*The picture below shows the batteries installed*. *The fuse is built into the left hand side of the box. To pack the cells in tightly I used packing foam and the aluminium end plates, simply put the foam between two end plates and force it into the gap between the cells and the edge of the box. works perfectly.



















*Front boxes


















Front Lower
*The front lower box holds 38 cells. I stupidly forgot to take any pictures of it going together -It's more or less the same as the rear box but with a 2mm aluminium lid. It isn't quite as tall so the fuse is on the outside of the box, not ideal but I would otherwise need to increase the height by about 50mm.










*Front Upper
*The front upper box can hold an additional 24 cells however I just dont need them! I am using it to house the 12v battery, DCDC converter and a DIY distribution block which I'm quite proud of!





































The 12v wiring could do with a bit of a tidy up if i'm being honest!

Will update with the bottom balancing and charging antics when I get chance.

Cheers,

Mike


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## ScottyDont (Sep 29, 2013)

I should have filled out my details before my first post, im in New South Wales Australia, and anything under $10k here is a 'bargain' for an rx8. Thats alright il keep an eye out as theres no rush.

Your build looks very tidy, was there enough room above your motor for batteries or did they all need to go right at the bumper?


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## mira9_cz (Feb 27, 2013)

Do you have some picture of rear of your car now with new rear battery box? I wondered how low your box is. I did some measuring with floor of the boot cut off at my RX8 today and I think my box will be as deep as bottom edge of rear bumper. I'm affraid to go lower because of appearance. I wondered how you decided.


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## skooler (Mar 26, 2011)

mira9_cz said:


> Do you have some picture of rear of your car now with new rear battery box? I wondered how low your box is. I did some measuring with floor of the boot cut off at my RX8 today and I think my box will be as deep as bottom edge of rear bumper. I'm affraid to go lower because of appearance. I wondered how you decided.


Take a look at page 38  just above the rear bumber line although the anti-roll bar is slightly lower. doesn't look too odd at all.

Cheers,

Mike


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## dougingraham (Jul 26, 2011)

mira9_cz said:


> Do you have some picture of rear of your car now with new rear battery box? I wondered how low your box is. I did some measuring with floor of the boot cut off at my RX8 today and I think my box will be as deep as bottom edge of rear bumper. I'm affraid to go lower because of appearance. I wondered how you decided.


Just paint it black and you never see it. The thing to worry about is making it so low that it drags. On my Rx7 I could have made it about 2 inches deeper before it would have been even with the bottom of the original muffler. Your situation is probably a bit more of an issue with it taking up trunk space.


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## mira9_cz (Feb 27, 2013)

skooler said:


> Take a look at page 38  just above the rear bumber line although the anti-roll bar is slightly lower. doesn't look too odd at all.


Ah, right  Good job with the stabilizer. I was thinking to do the same as you - mount the stabilizer to the bottom of the rear battery box, but I also tried to turn the stabilizer upside down and then it would go even lower. However I decided to stick with original stabilizer position, because there are very stupid silent blocs holders at the sides of rear axle (I'm sure you know which I'm talking about). These I found to be bigger problem then stabilizer. I was thinking to cut them slightly as well, or to make a "pockets" for them a the box as you did. We will see, I will send a picture as soon as I will have something.


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## mira9_cz (Feb 27, 2013)

dougingraham said:


> Just paint it black and you never see it. The thing to worry about is making it so low that it drags. On my Rx7 I could have made it about 2 inches deeper before it would have been even with the bottom of the original muffler. Your situation is probably a bit more of an issue with it taking up trunk space.


Yes, I have the same opinion about painting it black, but the extra space would give me just few centimeters, which will not allow me to put two layers of the cells to the rear box anyway. 

If I remember correctly, my box dimensions for now are following: length is 38 cm, width is 71 cm and depth is 29 cm.


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## skooler (Mar 26, 2011)

mira9_cz said:


> Ah, right  Good job with the stabilizer. I was thinking to do the same as you - mount the stabilizer to the bottom of the rear battery box, but I also tried to turn the stabilizer upside down and then it would go even lower. However I decided to stick with original stabilizer position, because there are very stupid silent blocs holders at the sides of rear axle (I'm sure you know which I'm talking about). These I found to be bigger problem then stabilizer. I was thinking to cut them slightly as well, or to make a "pockets" for them a the box as you did. We will see, I will send a picture as soon as I will have something.


Yes, the blocks where the rear subframe meets the body....

How many cells do you plan to install? Unless its in excess of 74 (like me) then I'd just create pockets in the box - These provide a good place to have cable entry. Otherwise, cutting them down and boxing them in should be fine.


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## mira9_cz (Feb 27, 2013)

skooler said:


> How many cells do you plan to install? Unless its in excess of 74 (like me) then I'd just create pockets in the box - These provide a good place to have cable entry. Otherwise, cutting them down and boxing them in should be fine.


Well since Kostov K11 Alpha is 250V nominal voltage, I will need something over 80 cells. I still do not know exactly which cells I will use, but because it is impossible to design battery boxes just "as big as possible", I count with dimensions of Winston 200Ah WIDE and WINA 100Ah, two in parallel. 

I like your cable entry very much, it looks very nice and professional. As far as now I think I will have second small box above the stabilizer and spot where body meets subframe, 12 cm x 12 cm x 71 cm or something about that sized, which I will use for cable entry and possibly as a stowage compartment for car jack, safety triangle and this kind of stuff. As far as I taught and counted, such a slim space will not give me any more space for big cells I plan to use. For your Sinopoly 100Ah it something different of course.


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## ScottyDont (Sep 29, 2013)

Hey skooler, do you have some specs for your build so far? like an all up weight and your wh/mile with your lifepo4 cells


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## Paulinho19 (Nov 29, 2013)

Hi Skooler,

Quick question, after your conversion, and since you kept the ECU, what does still work on your instrument cluster? For example RPM, Speed, ODO... etc.

Thanks,

Paulo Almeida


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## skooler (Mar 26, 2011)

Hi All,

Long overdue an update!

The car has been driving great but has probably been a little underpowered above about 55/60MPH - it runs out of gears!

I tend to stick to 3rd gear around town and second when starting on a hill (quite common around here!) I have been looking at ways to change the final drive ratio. I worked out that to make 1st gear usable I would need 24" wheels......

The 74 Sinopoly 100AH cells have been great. Range looks to be about 80 miles but haven't needed to go anywhere near empty yet.

I gave up on the EMW charger kit, I had one of the earlier versions which wasn't documented very well. I'm sure that it is much better know but cnt recommend it based on my experience.

I since acquired a large quantity of Brusa chargers (mostly sold to EVTV). one of them is humming away nicely now.

There's a few pictures below to show the car as it is now.

Custom Front Bumper (to hide the front battery box)


















Front Box









Bottom balancing fun!









Brusa under rear passenger seat (where the fuel tank lived)









Only issue now is that the motor seems to be on its way out. It's done well but wasn't really ever built for use at 600amps in a 1500KG sports car. The 1973 Morrison milkfloat it came on would be a better fit! Looks as though the comm bars have lifted slightly on first inspection.

I'm hoping to replace it with the Kostov 11alpha as soon as possible. Does anybody know where I can source one quickly? Kostov themselves seem slow to respond.

Cheers,

Mike


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## mira9_cz (Feb 27, 2013)

Hi Mike, you just scared me with that front bumper. Will I have to do this as well? As much as I measured I still think I can put all the plastic shields from the bottom of the car back to its place to cover the battery boxes (and to optimize air flow going to the motor).

I had my K11 Alpha from Mr. Plamen from Kostov directly. I have contacted him and withing two weeks I had it at my doorstep. The most time took the money transfer. 

If I were you, I would wait how K11 will perform in my Mazda  You have rare opportunity here. Me myself I'm little bit afraid of final drive ratio, I hoped to be able to maintain 130 kmh highway drive speed, but Duncan and guys at my thread are making me worried. It almost makes me think K13 and no gearbox is better option then Alpha..


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## skooler (Mar 26, 2011)

mira9_cz said:


> Hi Mike, you just scared me with that front bumper. Will I have to do this as well? As much as I measured I still think I can put all the plastic shields from the bottom of the car back to its place to cover the battery boxes (and to optimize air flow going to the motor).


Maybe - It's down to personal preference. I managed to keep all of the plastics. I just didn't like having a shiny aluminum battery box on show through the lower center grill. painting it black will probably have the same effect!



mira9_cz said:


> I had my K11 Alpha from Mr. Plamen from Kostov directly. I have contacted him and withing two weeks I had it at my doorstep. The most time took the money transfer.
> 
> If I were you, I would wait how K11 will perform in my Mazda  You have rare opportunity here. Me myself I'm little bit afraid of final drive ratio, I hoped to be able to maintain 130 kmh highway drive speed, but Duncan and guys at my thread are making me worried. It almost makes me think K13 and no gearbox is better option then Alpha..


The problem for me is with both final Drive ratio (first is never used, second very rarely) but the torque on my motor was dropping off very quickly at about 1200RPM).

A motor that can carry the torque out to say 2,500+ RPM will have a much better accelleration then my old milkfloat motor and should hold its top speed much better. Mine was more than happy at 65-70mph continuous diddnt really have the opportunity to take it faster than that for a sustained period.

I'm sure the 11 alpha will have no trouble whatsoever.

Do you have any contact details for kostov / plamenator? Have emailed and sent a PM but no reply.

Cheers,

Mike


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## skooler (Mar 26, 2011)

Quick update, removed the drivetrain yesterday. This was suprisingly easy. Car goes up on the ramp, remove all crossmembers, disconnect all wiring to motor and gearbox, unbolt motor mounts and bar to diff, Support gearbox with transmission jack and lower out of place.

Did I forget anything? The clutch cable! Snapped off a 12inch hose but other than that a very smooth task. Should be easy enough to replace.










Took the motor apart and it is showing discolouration (heat damage) and pitting between the comm bars (arcing?).

Ran it up on the lathe and cleaned up the comm bars. Started with the lathe tool and finished with emery cloth. Then just a case of cleaning out between the comm bars. Used a screwdriver and hammer as there was a lot of copper in there.

Put it all back togethor and ran the motor up on 12v. It runs but is a bit 'rickity', much worse than brush noise. I guess this is the excessive gap between some of the bars due to the arcing.

Its not good enough to go back into a car but it does run and is probably too good to scrap. Might have a little side project for this!

I'll be replacing it with a new Kostov 11alpha or a used warp 11 if the seller gets back to me.

Battery sag at 600amps with the 74 Sinopoly 100ah cells dropped to about 230v hot off the charger and 215v until about 80%DoD (actual real life figures with the old motor)

So a conservative guess at performance with the alpha:

215v × 600amps = 129KW. 

129 kw at 80% efficiency (battery to wheel) = 103.2KW

103.2KW to HP is 138HP at the wheel

Read on another thread that the 11 alpha is 180ft lbs torque at 600 amps.

Performance should be comparable to a modern 2l turbo diesel.

Cheers,

Mike


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## dougingraham (Jul 26, 2011)

skooler said:


> Took the motor apart and it is showing discolouration (heat damage) and pitting between the comm bars (arcing?).


You mentioned previously that there was no advance timing and trailing edge erosion is the result of running like this at higher speeds and power levels. One thing you notice is that the brushes on one side are more worn than the other side. The arcing only occurs on one brush of the pair and that side wears out the brush faster. Once the comm trailing edge is rough enough it will cause some brush bounce and rapid erosion of the brushes.

I am sorry your EV is down and look forward to hearing about the motor change out.


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## aeroscott (Jan 5, 2008)

I remember something about not using emery on comm bars ??


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## favguy (May 2, 2008)

Hi Mike,

If you'd not advanced the motor brushes, you're lucky it lasted as long as it did running a 144v system with neutral timing!


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## aeroscott (Jan 5, 2008)

Know I remembered, from a old motor guy who does elevator motors(comm's have to be "just right" with 600 volts) .They use stones as in sharpening stones . He gave me one , very small on a tooth brush handle so you could use it on a running motor . These old school motors are a work of art .


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## mk1man2000 (Oct 18, 2012)

Hi there Skooler, i may be able to save you as i currently have a Caterpillar hydraulic pump DC electric motor for sale, 72v - 80v motor (has not been advanced yet) weight is 61.6Kg and it's about 10 inch wide, part number is: 916350 and was used on electric forklifts: 

M50DSA 
MC60DSA 
F40DSA 
F50DSA 
F60DSA


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## skooler (Mar 26, 2011)

Hi All, thanks for the feedback.

The motor timing was advanced as standard by about 5 degrees. That may conflict with some early information in this thread from my 'early days' - it looked about square!

A forklift mechanic friend showed me a nice trick where you put blue-tack inside cling film (don't know if the rest of the world calls them that!!!). You make two of those and then push them into the comm against either side of the brush. This molds the angle between the brush and the comm which can then easily be measured using conventional methods.

Basically, I don't think the motor was man enough for a 1500KG car and didn't have adequate cooling.

Anyway... I have ordered a Kostov11 alpha from Rebbl in the Netherlands. Rebbl had one in stock and Kostov arent making another batch until April. I paid a little more than I wanted to but I'm sure it'll work out great.

It should arrive by the weekend so assuming the adapter and coupler transplant over nicely I should be back on the road by Monday.

Finaly. I have entered the Car into Alternative Energy Racing at Santa Pod on 29th March.

http://www.aeracing.org/entry2014.php

Cheers,

Mike


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## mira9_cz (Feb 27, 2013)

Sorry Mike for not sending you the contact to Mr. Plamen from Kostov some time ago as you asked. I was too busy to check DIY forums last few weeks and now I think you do not need it anymore. I'm really sorry, the P.M. I would not ignored, but I usually do not have time to check new posts immediately as the forum sends me notification emails.

Anyway congratulations to new Kostov K11 Alpha, I can see you have already changed the footage of your posts (the text under each post)  This is good, very good, actually it will be me who will have the advantage to watch how K11 Alpha performs in Mazda RX-8. I could not be luckier ;-) 

I'm quite stuck with battery boxes issue and I'm afraid it will take one or two more months before I will be ready to put batteries into the boxes. These guys that I have who laser-cuts and welds aluminum works quite cheap - complete aluminum rear box was for approximately 270 EUR including material, but sure not fast :-(


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## skooler (Mar 26, 2011)

Hi All, 

Quick update. The new motor arrived on Friday. Spent yesterday rebuilding the adaptor plate to work (spacings are a PITA). Anyway, that's all tested and working. need to make a mounting bracket today and I'll be back on the road.

Will update with pictures later on.


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## vocalnick (Aug 5, 2013)

Heya - I just ploughed through the whole thread. Fantastic build 

I was just wondering if you're happy with the performance of the Soliton Jr. with all of that battery weight in there? I've noticed the the Evnetics website recommends it for cars up to about 1200kg, and I'm guessing yours would be well over that - the RX8 is around 1300 stock, and you've got a lot of lithium on board!

I mainly ask because I'm planning a conversion of a Ford Probe (pretty much exactly the same weight) and I'm looking to achieve similar range. The Soliton Jr is pretty attractive, but I'm wondering if I'd be better off considering its bigger brother...

I'll also be keeping an eye on how you go with the Kostov as it's on my proposed motors list. Might bend your ear about bottom-balancing at some stage too if you're willing 

Thanks!
Nick


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## skooler (Mar 26, 2011)

vocalnick said:


> Heya - I just ploughed through the whole thread. Fantastic build
> 
> I was just wondering if you're happy with the performance of the Soliton Jr. with all of that battery weight in there? I've noticed the the Evnetics website recommends it for cars up to about 1200kg, and I'm guessing yours would be well over that - the RX8 is around 1300 stock, and you've got a lot of lithium on board!
> 
> ...


Hi Nick,

Thanks!

Soliton Jr is doing fine. I had thought about upgrading to the Soliton 1 but since upgrading the motor and running at 250v I don't see the need. 0-60 is about 7 seconds now according to a friend with a stopwatch, sounds a bit quick to me.

I'd recommend going for either Soliton jr or 1 and getting the battery voltage as close to the 350v limit as possible so that you are not as affected by battery sag.

I suggest a read of the below thread for bottom balancing.

http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showthread.php?t=85458

I'll post an update on the Kostov 11alpha upgrade later on. In short, all good and 200 miles since fitting earlier in the week.

Cheers,

Mike


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## skooler (Mar 26, 2011)

Hi All,

Time for an update on the motor situation. The Kostov 11 alpha arrived last Friday from Rebbl, great service from them although not cheap.

The motor is actually shorter than my old motor by roughly 2 inches but also about 2 inches wider.

The image below shows the massive fan on the back of this beast which provides it with cooling while at low RPMs (when the internal shaft mounted fan is useless). That thing really shifts some air, I think I read 600CFM somewhere - after a drive you can feel the warm air off the fan at the back of the car! It is switched on and off on a relay connected to a thermal switch included in the motor.










I used two 100AH battery straps (slightly bent) to short two of the motor terminals.









Now onto the adaptor plate and coupler. This turned out to be a tease! turned out that my 1974 motor had *exactly* the same bolt pattern - except turned by about 20 degrees. This would have been fine but it meant the flats on the motor were at angles that would have been difficult to work with. So I drilled 8 new holes in the adapter plate, 8 bolts is probably overkill but we all know that overkill is always appropriate.

Adapter plate bolted on with original holes - note how the motor terminal is at the top.










Showing how the flats are off center.









So after a bit of measuring, checking and checking again I drilled out the new holes in the adaptor plate.










The holes at 12, 3, 6 and 9 'o' clock are the older holes, top of the adaptor is at 12 'o' clock. the flats on the motor are also at 12, 3, 6 and 9. You can see how the original holes don't line up.









All bolted up.









The coupler needed some light machine work to allow it to fit inside the motor face. See the collor in the above pic. Ran it up on the lathe and removed about 2mm. 









We used an old brake disc to evenly 'beat' the flywheel onto the motor shaft without damaging the flywheel. worked perfectly.

Afraid the picture got 'photobombed', I didn't realise until it was all back together!











Going to have to continue on the next post because of the forums 10 image per post rule.


----------



## skooler (Mar 26, 2011)

Continued....

The motor is mounted using steel brackets from the flats on the motor onto the original engine mounts (now back in their original location.

I started buy making a 'U' shape around the bottom and side flats. There is little clearance between the tapped holes on the motor and the side of the flats so I have used 5mm steel plate welded to the box section to space it away and provide clearance. Using 25*50mm box, 3mm thick.










With the bottom of the motor now protected I was able to work on the coupling to the gearbox. The original design used spacers (see post at top of last page) to get the flywheel in the correct position for the clutch to operate. It just so happens that the perfect position with this motor is to have no spacers whatsoever!

The gearbox is attached to the gearbox plate using two dowels and four bolts in their original locations. Three m16 bolts then clamp the two plates together. 

The bottom of the plates is left flat deliberately to stop everything rolling around when on the floor - The added weight and space required is trivial.










The whole drivetrain (minus diff onwards) was then lifted onto the transmission jack using the engine crane and a hernia lift at the other end. I estimate it weighs about 125KG total.










The engine crane was then removed and with three people. (one motor side, one diff side and one moving the jack) the drivetrain was jacked into place from under the car (I *LOVE* my two post ramp!)










I then tacked some box section to join the previously mentioned steel box to the stock engine mounts. I then cut through the middle of it with the grinder so that it can be removed! It received some bracing and some black paint. The finished result is below.










And fitted in place.









I now have about 250 miles on the new motor since finnishing the install last Monday night. I am very pleased with it. the Soliton Jr is set to limit at 250v, 600a which is quite nippy, I am sagging to about 215v with the hammer down. Top speed so far is about 85Mph - I ran out of tarmac and still had another gear.

Cheers,

Mike


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## tylerwatts (Feb 9, 2012)

Sounds great dude! Did you run in the brushes? Also, what rpm are you driving the motor to if you had another gear to go? Is yours a 5 or 6 speed? 
Looking great! 
Tyler


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## Ellrot (May 17, 2010)

Dude what a awesome motor and thread!!!


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## skooler (Mar 26, 2011)

tylerwatts said:


> Sounds great dude! Did you run in the brushes? Also, what rpm are you driving the motor to if you had another gear to go? Is yours a 5 or 6 speed?
> Looking great!
> Tyler


Thanks!

Yeah the brushes spent about two days connected to the 12v aux battery, being fed by the dcdc converter which in turn was being fed by the main pack, which was charged 3 times during the process so no chance of anything going flat! The motor was drawing about 25 amps for the duration. I didn't really monitor it but it was noticeably quieter at the end.

Mines a 5 speed, 4th gear is 1:1 and 5th is a 0.777 overdrive. Motor is limited to 5,500 RPM in the Soliton.



Ellrot said:


> Dude what a awesome motor and thread!!!


Thanks!

On a side note, the car is entered into alternative energy racing on the 29th March. Drag racing and handling course. Should stand a good chance!

Will try and get some video from the event.

http://www.aeracing.org/entry2014.php

Cheers,

Mike


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## skooler (Mar 26, 2011)

Thought I would post this after doing some testing for sag over the weekend. Tells an interesting story.

74 cells (236.8v nom) with about 10 miles driven since last charge. Sag is about 215-220v at 600amps. About 10% sag - Pretty good!


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## steelneck (Apr 19, 2013)

Been following this thread for a while, very nice build Skooler.

What performance figures are you getting? I am very interested about your 0-60 (mph) time, and the curb weight. I am converting a Ford Granada mk1 and will be using a K11 motor and a Soliton 1 with a 78 cell pack (LYP 100aH).

http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showthread.php/ford-granada-build-thread-92829.html


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## mira9_cz (Feb 27, 2013)

Hello Skooler. Nice job and congratulations to be on the road again! I like your motor holders, seems to be stronger then mine. 

Right now I have Mazda instrument panel on my desk, playing with CAN bus. I'm successfully controlling RPM meter, speed at the LCD and temperature. I want to make generator of CAN messages so original temperature meter would show Kostov K11 Alpha temp. Mike don't you know the type of thermistor inside of K11 Alpha? Is it KTY84-130? I asked Mr. Plamen, he told me that they have datasheet at the web, but I can not find it. I feel stupid asking him again.. I'm sure you will know this detail.

I also wondered, have you bought Rebbl RPM conversion board for SKF bearing? I wondered how you are displaying RPM at the instrument panel. This is second CAN-Bus related task of mine - to make a converter between SKF bearing and CAN bus. So I'm asking for the case there would be easier method  Thanks, Miroslav


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## skooler (Mar 26, 2011)

mira9_cz said:


> Hello Skooler. Nice job and congratulations to be on the road again! I like your motor holders, seems to be stronger then mine.
> 
> Right now I have Mazda instrument panel on my desk, playing with CAN bus. I'm successfully controlling RPM meter, speed at the LCD and temperature. I want to make generator of CAN messages so original temperature meter would show Kostov K11 Alpha temp. Mike don't you know the type of thermistor inside of K11 Alpha? Is it KTY84-130? I asked Mr. Plamen, he told me that they have datasheet at the web, but I can not find it. I feel stupid asking him again.. I'm sure you will know this detail.
> 
> I also wondered, have you bought Rebbl RPM conversion board for SKF bearing? I wondered how you are displaying RPM at the instrument panel. This is second CAN-Bus related task of mine - to make a converter between SKF bearing and CAN bus. So I'm asking for the case there would be easier method  Thanks, Miroslav



Hi Miroslav,

Thanks, the motor brackets are deliberately over-engineered (overkill is always appropriate), I don't see any way that they could fail and rightfully so. Dropping about 125KG and £3000 of drivetrain while driving wouldn't be goodf.

I'm about to put an EPS and dash controller up on my webstore (indra.co.uk). We have a working prototype but just need to get it to a saleable quality.

It takes the Soliton's log output (via Ethernet) and converts it to canbus that the dash pinnacle recognises.

I'm using the rpm adapter from Rebbl. Works perfectly. The soliton provides the rpm as part of its log output, so I don't convert directly from the rpm sensor to the dash.

I'm not monitoring motor temperature using the thermistor. It has forced air cooling and barely gets warm after a long drive according to my laser thermometer. 

I use the water temp guage to show the soliton temperature (again, through the soliton output)

Cheers,

Mike


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## mira9_cz (Feb 27, 2013)

Thanks mike for information. I have sent you an email with respect to this CAN Bus stuff, apparently I'm messing with something that you have already finished. But I don't mind, I love my CAN2USB tool, especially analyzing graphs searching for specific CAN values and addresses. It reminds me analyzing driving telemetry.

>>> It has forced air cooling and barely gets warm after a long drive according to my laser thermometer.
Wow, thanks! I was scared of temperature issues, so it feels good to know that it will not be so bad.


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## skooler (Mar 26, 2011)

Hi all,

Thought I'd post some findings from some recent testing looking at energy consumption under different driving styles.

The tests both involved an identical 14.8 mile round trip consisting of some stop/start traffic, country roads and a dual carraigeway (70mph limit)

The evse measures the energy usage to the nearest 10wh. 

To be clear, I am measuring from the wall (evse), not the vehicle so losses while charging (~10%?) Should be considered.

On both tests the car was charged to full (evse clicks off) and plugged back in immediately when the test finished.

The first test I drove as aggresively as possible within the law - harsh accelleration heavy braking etc.

I averaged 625wh per mile - 9.25kwh for the 14.8mile journey.

On the second run, I drove as efficiently as I could without being a hinderence to other road users. I could have driven more slowly in places but I wanted to drive at a reasonable speed. I held 70mph on the dual carraigeway so still hit speed and generally kept to the speed limits.

I averaged 290wh per mile - 4.30kwh for the journey. Doubling my range!

I am suprised at the vast difference. I was aware that driving aggressively would effect range but not more than halve it!

Cheers,

Mike


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## skooler (Mar 26, 2011)

Some more info on the build....

Managed to get on some scales today.

Front Left 378KG
Front Right 372KG
Rear Left 366KG
Rear Right 366KG

1483KG total

I'm really happy with the weight distribution. The car has always felt balanced but diddnt realised just how balanced!


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## ScottyDont (Sep 29, 2013)

Thanks for the detailed information skooler, thats a nice weight distribution. What is your maximum battery current limit? You mentioned 600A but I wasn't sure if you were talking about your motor current or battery.

Do you have any detailed Soliton logs showing an acceleration from zero to a reasonably high rpm? The battery voltage, duty cycle, motor current etc would really show off how well the motor and battery performs. As a bonus you could use the log to get your 0-60mph time.

How did the car handle in the Alternative Energy Race?


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## skooler (Mar 26, 2011)

ScottyDont said:


> Thanks for the detailed information skooler, thats a nice weight distribution. What is your maximum battery current limit? You mentioned 600A but I wasn't sure if you were talking about your motor current or battery.
> 
> Do you have any detailed Soliton logs showing an acceleration from zero to a reasonably high rpm? The battery voltage, duty cycle, motor current etc would really show off how well the motor and battery performs. As a bonus you could use the log to get your 0-60mph time.
> 
> How did the car handle in the Alternative Energy Race?


Yeah wight distro does feel good. It drives exceptionally well, grip and cornering are immense.

Maximum battery current is 6c - 600A but I don't seem to ever get anywhere near that. I guess you never really draw max current and voltage at the same time so the voltage makes up for it.

Check out post number 417 on the last page for the Soliton log out output  unfortunately the RPM sensor wasn't active as it needed a completely random size resistor to get it to function, it hadn't arrived at the time. The log graph shows a few blasts from 0 - ~35mph in second gear from memory.


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## pavel174 (Mar 7, 2012)

Cool.
Good for you. More videos if you can.


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## skooler (Mar 26, 2011)

At long last.... a walkaround of the car.


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## mira9_cz (Feb 27, 2013)

Nice video Mike, thanks for sharing. Was it slipping clutch in last seconds of the video? I got feeling like RPM were not proportional to car speed, but perhaps I'm wrong.


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## skooler (Mar 26, 2011)

mira9_cz said:


> Nice video Mike, thanks for sharing. Was it slipping clutch in last seconds of the video? I got feeling like RPM were not proportional to car speed, but perhaps I'm wrong.


Thanks 

Shame about video quality and lighting.

I think the audio is slightly out of sync and makes it seem that way?

Clutch seems fine although I'll double check  I plan to upgrade to a paddle clutch next time I have it all apart


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## mira9_cz (Feb 27, 2013)

skooler said:


> I think the audio is slightly out of sync and makes it seem that way?


That might be it, also I don't drive with Alpha yet, so I might easily hear something else. Although I'm worried about this issue. With K9 in Chinese van the clutch started to slip immediately after I set-up Soliton to apply power more aggressively. I was thinking about stronger pressure plate, or some performance racing clutch, but the paddle clutch seems interesting. I will check more info, thanks for the tip.


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## sexstrap (Feb 25, 2013)

skooler said:


> At long last.... a walkaround of the car.


Great Video Mike, Quality and lighting a little poor but still just to see the beast is fantastic, I am about to start my own RX8 Conversion, 11 inch Kostov (not sure if it is an alpha, as it is second hand) with a Soliton 1 (also second hand) I am hoping to use EIG LIPO 

http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=31&t=51226 

If I can get hold of enough of them for a reasonable price, this should give me some serious performance and being LIPO not LIFEPO considerably lighter as well, they are very expensive but when you consider the extreme lifespan (possibly 6000 cycles!) they will pay for themselves in the long run.

It was great to see how you have laid out the components, I have not started the strip down of mine yet (bar the engine which is out) and I was hoping there might be enough space for the 11 inch Kostov to mount directly onto the diff as I am planning on loosing the gearbox and driveshaft completely to save weight.

Once the fuel tank is gone in your opinion would it be possible to mount the Kostov 11 inch in the rear directly coupled to the diff? I would expect that some serious reworking would be necessary but looking at your vid the fuel tank seems a lot smaller (shallower) than I thought it would have been, is the fuel tank taller than 11 inches?

Also what charge meter are you using the? The blue display looks great.
And what charger did you settle on in the end? I did eventualy get my EMW working although I still have some work to do on it.

Many thanks & keep up the good work.

Graham

PS My Honda Beat is running sweet, I commute in it, Daily 20 mile round trip (have been for 5 months now) I will be showing it at this year’s Brighton Mini Maker Fair if you fancy a day trip to Brighton in September it would be great to meet in person and chat.


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## sexstrap (Feb 25, 2013)

skooler said:


> Thanks!
> 
> Yeah the brushes spent about two days connected to the 12v aux battery, being fed by the dcdc converter which in turn was being fed by the main pack, which was charged 3 times during the process so no chance of anything going flat! The motor was drawing about 25 amps for the duration. I didn't really monitor it but it was noticeably quieter at the end.
> 
> ...


Hi Mike

I can't believe I missed this! Still my car was off the road at the time for a battery rebuild and upgrades.

How did the Alternative Energy Race go? Would love to hear/see more, did you get any video on the day?

Did you win anything? And how did you get your car there, Towed or on a lorry or do you happen to live in range?

Graham

P.S. Sorry about the 20 questions but I did not know this race even existed (despite being aware of the BVS) must remember to get my head out from under the bonnet occasionally


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## pavel174 (Mar 7, 2012)

All Super Good.


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## AndreasV (May 20, 2013)

Hello Scooler. 
I have a problem. 
I have removed the engine of the RX 8. But now no longer running the steering and ABS. How did you solve the problem? I bet on a Can-Bus signal? 
Can you help me?
Greetings Andreas


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## skooler (Mar 26, 2011)

AndreasV said:


> Hello Scooler.
> I have a problem.
> I have removed the engine of the RX 8. But now no longer running the steering and ABS. How did you solve the problem? I bet on a Can-Bus signal?
> Can you help me?
> Greetings Andreas


#

Hi Andreas,

I have a solution for the steering, which I can sell to you but I'm afraid it's not cheap - It essentially spoofs the canbus signals that the EPS controller expects to receive. Details earlier on in this thread.

ABS worked perfectly for me with no changes. Traction control was a problem but I can live without that.


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## AndreasV (May 20, 2013)

Hallo Skooler . 
Bitte mehr Informationen und eine Preis . Gibt es vielleicht einen Block zur einfach anschließen ? In Ihrer Lauffläche war nicht genau dort, wo hast du was und wie verbunden. Mein RX gesetzt Abstand des Motors tot , das Steuergerät sagt nichts und gibt die andere teure Geräte nicht frei. 
Wenn Sie die haben, Lösung , ich bitte Sie , um mir zu sagen, mein Projekt hängt es ab jetzt . 
Gruß Andreas .


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## arklan (Dec 10, 2012)

Hello Skooler. 
Please more information and a price. Is there a block for just connect? In your tread was not exactly where you have connected what and how. My RX set distance of the engine dead, the controller says nothing and gives the other expensive equipment is not free. 
If you have the, solution, I beg you to tell me my project it depends on now. 
Greetings Andreas


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## AndreasV (May 20, 2013)

Hello Scooler. 
I could not send you PM. Irgendeie is not the ... 
That's why I write to you here on the board


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## skooler (Mar 26, 2011)

Local (to me) article on the formation of a local owners club. bit of coverage of the car too 

http://www.malverngazette.co.uk/new...b_to_promote_eco_friendly_motoring/?ref=var_0


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## Diler (Sep 10, 2014)

*Caterpillar hydraulic pump DC electric motor 72v - 80v*

Dear Sir 

hope you fine

can you please send me the price of 916350 Caterpillar DC 72v - 80v electric motor to my email ; [email protected].

waiting for your replay

best regards

Diler

Iraq / Diala / Khanaqen

Email ; [email protected]

Mob ; 009647708874032









mk1man2000 said:


> Hi there Skooler, i may be able to save you as i currently have a Caterpillar hydraulic pump DC electric motor for sale, 72v - 80v motor (has not been advanced yet) weight is 61.6Kg and it's about 10 inch wide, part number is: 916350 and was used on electric forklifts:
> 
> M50DSA
> MC60DSA
> ...


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## skooler (Mar 26, 2011)

Did a bit of tidying up under the bonnet (hood) in preparation for a local show last Sunday. thought I may as well share it 










Car has been in almost daily use for well over a year on the lithium now. 12000 miles and the bottom balanced pack still appears to be in balance - I ran it to 2.9VPC a few days ago and picked a few cells at random; those were all within three thousandths of a volt.

I have 24 more Sinopoly 100ah cells to add to the car (98 total) in order to get the battery voltage up and reduce battery current while maintaining the same (well better actually) motor voltage and current. I don't really need the extra range but it is a nice bi-product!


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## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

skooler said:


> ....I have 24 more Sinopoly 100ah cells to add to the car (98 total) in order to get the battery voltage up and reduce battery current while maintaining the same (well better actually) motor voltage and current. I don't really need the extra range but it is a nice bi-product!


Nope, you will be limited to 900A max motor current and the Soliton might refuse to start on occasion because the pack voltage is too high (or it thinks it is - remember, only a 2% error on the high end of the pack voltage reading is 7V).

I recommend limiting the number of LFP cells in series supplying a Soliton controller to 95 or less.


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## skooler (Mar 26, 2011)

Tesseract said:


> Nope, you will be limited to 900A max motor current and the Soliton might refuse to start on occasion because the pack voltage is too high (or it thinks it is - remember, only a 2% error on the high end of the pack voltage reading is 7V).
> 
> I recommend limiting the number of LFP cells in series supplying a Soliton controller to 95 or less.


Hi Jeffrey

I'm using the Jr - does the same current limit apply?

Am I right in thinking the max voltage on the soliton JR is also 350v? Allowing for the potential 2% error that's 343v.

Currently, my 74 cell pack rests at 249v after a charge (charging to 3.5vpc). By rest I mean that is the voltage shown when I get in the car each morning after plugging in the previous night or after plugging in when arriving at the workshop in morning and leaving in the evening. So with 98 cells, using the same resting voltage I should be at ~329v

That should be absolutely fine unless setting off just as the charge terminates (that will ironically be at 343v). In which case, if there is an issue I'll allow the dcdc or heater to bleed down the pack and then power cycle. If it becomes a common issue I'll remove a cell or two.


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## mira9_cz (Feb 27, 2013)

skooler said:


> Did a bit of tidying up under the bonnet (hood) in preparation for a local show last Sunday. thought I may as well share it


It looks really nice! Congratulations to such a nice view under the bonnet. I like the silver ECU box and Fusebox. 

98 cells seems to be usable. At least it works well for me, but I charge to 3.47V per cell to be able to drive immediately after finishing charging (no DC-DC or heater). Also please take in advance that the car will get heavier and therefore also lower ride height.


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## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

skooler said:


> ...I'm using the Jr - does the same current limit apply?


Current is reduced to 500A max in the Jr when pack voltage is above 310V (this notice is in the "readme.txt" file that comes with the software package).



skooler said:


> Am I right in thinking the max voltage on the soliton JR is also 350v? Allowing for the potential 2% error that's 343v.


No, the official maximum pack voltage is 342V with some "reasonable" allowance for error in the measuring circuit, but we internally increased it to 350V because we actually got a snarky email from a customer who said their controller was refusing to start up when the pack voltage measured with their DMM was "only" 340V. 

Note that this limiting does not affect the claimed power rating of the Soliton Jr controller, and only modestly affects it in the Soliton 1 (280kW max if pack voltage is exactly at 311V).


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## skooler (Mar 26, 2011)

Tesseract said:


> Current is reduced to 500A max in the Jr when pack voltage is above 310V (this notice is in the "readme.txt" file that comes with the software package).
> 
> 
> 
> ...


OK thanks, that should be fine and understood 

Just wondering if I'd have better performance trying to keep pack voltage at 310v or less (x600amp =186KW) or at the proposed 329v (x500 amp =164.5KW)

May I ask the reasoning behind the current limit? I'll be limiting motor voltage to 250v on the Kostov 11alpha so I'll actually have more motor power available with the lower voltage battery pack!


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## skooler (Mar 26, 2011)

by the way.... I assume by current you mean motor current?


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## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

skooler said:


> ...May I ask the reasoning behind the current limit?


The derating and technical specs are briefly explained in Appendix B of the manual, and I have had to "justify" this derating on here more than once (even though the Zilla does even more drastic derating of motor current with increasing pack voltage), but the basic reason is that switching losses go up with voltage (and current and frequency). In other words, the power semiconductors (IGBT and FWD) get hotter, faster, as voltage goes up, all else remaining equal.

Furthermore, the proportion of both conduction and switching losses shift from the IGBT over to the FWD as the pack voltage goes up (because the average duty cycle of the IGBT for a given power output goes down) and since the thermistor inside the Jr's IGBT is next to one of the IGBT dice (or chips), rather than a FWD die, there is an additional lag in detecting an overheating FWD at high pack voltage.

An alternative approach - which we use in the Shiva - is to fix the output current rating to what is acceptable at the highest operating voltage. Our reason for using that approach in the Shiva is that you need the highest motor current possible in the beginning of a drag race, but pack voltage will be at its highest (ie - sagging from current draw the least) at that time so derating with higher pack voltage would be counterproductive. At least for drag racers.


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## skooler (Mar 26, 2011)

Tesseract said:


> The derating and technical specs are briefly explained in Appendix B of the manual, and I have had to "justify" this derating on here more than once (even though the Zilla does even more drastic derating of motor current with increasing pack voltage), but the basic reason is that switching losses go up with voltage (and current and frequency). In other words, the power semiconductors (IGBT and FWD) get hotter, faster, as voltage goes up, all else remaining equal.
> 
> Furthermore, the proportion of both conduction and switching losses shift from the IGBT over to the FWD as the pack voltage goes up (because the average duty cycle of the IGBT for a given power output goes down) and since the thermistor inside the Jr's IGBT is next to one of the IGBT dice (or chips), rather than a FWD die, there is an additional lag in detecting an overheating FWD at high pack voltage.
> 
> An alternative approach - which we use in the Shiva - is to fix the output current rating to what is acceptable at the highest operating voltage. Our reason for using that approach in the Shiva is that you need the highest motor current possible in the beginning of a drag race, but pack voltage will be at its highest (ie - sagging from current draw the least) at that time so derating with higher pack voltage would be counterproductive. At least for drag racers.


Makes perfect sense 

might help me justify upgrading to the 1 ;-)


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## Yabert (Feb 7, 2010)

Tesseract said:


> affects it in the Soliton 1 (280kW max if pack voltage is exactly at 311V).





Tesseract said:


> An alternative approach - which we use in the Shiva - is to fix the output current rating to what is acceptable at the highest operating voltage. Our reason for using that approach in the Shiva is that you *need the highest motor current possible in the beginning* of a drag race, but pack voltage will be at its highest (ie - sagging from current draw the least) at that time so derating with higher pack voltage would be counterproductive. At least for drag racers.


That would have been very appreciate for the Soliton 1 also...
Especially each time, since 4 years, when I think about the possibility to fully use the potential of the soliton 1 by coupling it at two motors in series and using a 320-330v battery to obtain at least 150v 1000A to each motor after sag.
Well, in fact it's almost impossible to output 300 Kw from the Solition 1 except to have a 300v battery who don't sag at 1000A (what isn't realist).

Can you remind me what will exactly happen at 310v a fraction of second after when Soliton 1 only supply 900A to motor?


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## skooler (Mar 26, 2011)

Minor incident today that could have been much worse....

Took the rx8 from the workshop to our local shop to pick up some milk and something for an evening meal.

Today has been our first proper frost in the uk so the heater went on. I regularly use the heater to demist the windscreen but its normally turned off after a mile or so. Normal journeys are normally 5+ miles so heater has been turned off manually by the end of the trip.

The heater is a mitsubishi imiev unit wired for only full power and run through a contactor. The control for the contactor is shared with a 12v water pump so that the pump must run when the heater is on. This supply comes from a standard 12v automotive relay which in turn is switched by the rear demister switch.

So when the rear demister is on, the 12v relay is energised, the pump and contactor are then energised and hv gets to the heater. Simples

The logic behind using the rear demister switch is that it means not adding another switch inside the car and the rear demister is normally on when the heater is on anyway.

Anyway, back to the incident! Came back out the shop after about 10 minutes and steam was pouring out from under the bonnet. Immediately identified it as the heater and yanked the earth for the pump/contactor.

Took the car back to the workshop and after a bit of probing with the meter discovered that the rear demister remains on when the ignition is switched off. Not sure if this is because of our current weather or a feature of the car. Seems nuts to me!

Of course, with the pump and heater still running but no fan blowing through the matrix the heat and pressure builds up. The reservour was empty on return to the workshop.

Rewired the relay so it takes its supply from the ignition live instead of the permenant live which stops the heater from staying on.

Could have been much worse if it wasnt a 10 minute stop at the shops..... I guess if left either something would catch fire or the battery would be drawn completely flat.


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## mira9_cz (Feb 27, 2013)

skooler said:


> Could have been much worse if it wasnt a 10 minute stop at the shops..... I guess if left either something would catch fire or the battery would be drawn completely flat.


Hi Mike. Congratulations to finding the weak spot before it damaged something! I did not know you have miev heater. I do not use it at our company C-Zero, because it ruins it's driving range horribly  But I can see the beauty of using it for Mazda - if I would have found some used unit for reasonable money, it would be my choice as well. Instead I installed petrol Webasto heater three weeks ago, should run on E85 as well.


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## skooler (Mar 26, 2011)

Quick update.

Car has been great and virtually untouched for about a year now in terms of maintenance (other than checks and adding a heater) however had a minor hiccup this morning....

Was driving to work and came to a 'T' junction, I was turning left (drive on left in UK), slight incline (10%ish). As I approached the junction I could see that nothing was coming so I coasted round at around 10mph.

Anyway. When I hit the accelerator after turning there was a strong jolt. felt a bit like being rear-ended when in a gokart. I let off the accelerator and then set off again. Absolutely fine and has been since - no noises and performance as expected. Gave everything a quick onceover and all seems fine. Battery voltage and current were as expected for SOC and conditions.

This did feel a bit like the 'bucking' I experienced when using dieing lead acid batteries (voltage crashed under load).

I had the radio on at the time so didn't hear anything.

I don't think it was a loss of traction due to being a 'jolt' rather than lack of movement.

So the car seems mechanically fine. Anything in the controller or motor that could cause this?

Probably worth mentioning it was abut 2 degrees C. Car had been given 5 mins to prewarm before setting off, heater was on and around 5 mins into the journey when this happened.

Car has since fully charged successfully.

Any thoughts?

Cheers,

Mike


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## favguy (May 2, 2008)

Hi Mike,

Admittedly I'm running a totally different controller, but occasionally if I lose traction on one wheel, say ice or the like and that wheel starts to spin up unexpectedly, my open revolt controller will see the sudden acceleration as a possible motor over speed situation and cut out. Usually this will only happen in 1st gear when I've switched from an ICE car and forget to set off in second!

On my controller, turning it off and back on resets it and all is back to normal. 

The sudden loss of power does give a "jolt" type feeling just as you describe, it can happen so fast the spinning wheel isn't particularly felt. Possibly you experienced something similar?


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## mira9_cz (Feb 27, 2013)

Hi Mike. What a strange phenomenon you had experienced. Sometimes my Rebbl RPM converter gets mistaken by motor electromagnetic emissions, RPM signal hits the limiter and Soliton takes gas pedal from me for 0.x seconds. But that feels opposite then you are describing. 

How did you solved your clutch issues Mike?


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## sexstrap (Feb 25, 2013)

skooler said:


> Quick update.
> 
> Car has been great and virtually untouched for about a year now in terms of maintenance (other than checks and adding a heater) however had a minor hiccup this morning....
> 
> ...


Hi Mike

Did you check the logs on the Soliton? I ask as I have experienced something like this when my 12V battery was failing it seemed that if you are moving at (any) speed and the 12V drops for any reason (indicators and Electric windows seem to be the main culprit in my conversion) then the controller cuts the throttle for a split second resulting in a powerful jolt.

The Soliton logs will show a (12V battery) voltage to low warning if this is the problem.

Sounds like your heater might have drained the 12v to near the threshold and then the addition of the indicators caused a drop to cause the Soliton to cut the throttle.

Also (Just out of interest) what DC-DC converter are you using in your conversion, maybe it is struggling to hold the 12v rail?


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## skooler (Mar 26, 2011)

Soliton shows a 12v low error.

Thinking about it. 12v sag would make sense.....

I have been avoiding driving the car when there is ice on the roads as it has a tendency to slide around quite a bit, I also live on the side of a hill which doesn't help! This meant that for a couple of days before this incident the car had been sat and the small 12v battery had gone flat (the EMW dash draws around 500ma!) so it had had a 12v jump around 10 minutes earlier.

The heater (from an imiev) runs on pack voltage (at 30 amps / 7kw!) so unlikely to be the cause of a voltage drop on the 12v side. perhaps indicator+headlights +radio

I am using a meanwell 650w 12v power supply supplied from EVTV. It works great. Just needs a 100a relay on the 12v side and contactor on the HV side to keep it from running either battery down when the car is off. I also use a ~30AH Bosch S4 battery to act as a buffer.

@Mira clutch issues???


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## sexstrap (Feb 25, 2013)

skooler said:


> Soliton shows a 12v low error.
> 
> Thinking about it. 12v sag would make sense.....
> 
> ...


Hi Mike

You like me use a PSU rather than an actual DC-DC convertor to charge your 12V battery, This is a good and cheap solution with one small disadvantage in that the PSU's rarely give you the option of tweaking the output voltage up to the "normal" 13.5v charge voltage you would be getting from an alternator, I have found that any small but significant extra load tends to put your 12v battery in the danger area fairly quickly resulting in the soliton cutting out under high 12v battery load, Indicators, Brakes, Wipers, Headlights, Stereo etc. (basically in Winter!)

I have been considering fitting LED indicator, rear & brake light bulbs as incandescent's can cause significant 12v drain in heavy traffic, I also notice that my electric windows cause my headlight to dim also pulling the 12v rail low, I understand from a thread on one of the EV forums that a good service of the window motors and greasing the rails can significantly improve this.

However I guess the real solution is to stump up for a real DC-DC that gives you a true 13.5V output, that extra 1.5v can make all the difference when we are talking about a 40AH 12v battery, but in my limited knowledge on DC-DC's they are expensive to say the least.


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## skooler (Mar 26, 2011)

sexstrap said:


> Hi Mike
> 
> You like me use a PSU rather than an actual DC-DC convertor to charge your 12V battery, This is a good and cheap solution with one small disadvantage in that the PSU's rarely give you the option of tweaking the output voltage up to the "normal" 13.5v charge voltage you would be getting from an alternator, I have found that any small but significant extra load tends to put your 12v battery in the danger area fairly quickly resulting in the soliton cutting out under high 12v battery load, Indicators, Brakes, Wipers, Headlights, Stereo etc. (basically in Winter!)
> 
> ...


 Hi Graham.

The meanwell was recommended by EVTV. There isn't really a good solution on the market at present - the DCDC is certainly the weakest link for DIY EVs.

I have about 30 ex azure dynamics units on the shelf which are absolutely brilliant but just haven't seen the need to swap out the meanwell.

It does actually have a voltage adjustment and I have it set to 14.4v I have no issues on the 12v side with headlights dimming under load etc - probably because I use a reasonably sized 12v battery as a buffer.

It is also rated for DC input so a pretty good solution other than not having an IP rating. Similar: http://store.evtv.me/proddetail.php?prod=Meanwell500

I'm going to assume that the issue was due to having a flat 12v battery (a load on the DCDC) combined with headlights, indicators, blowers and perhaps a bassy bit of music caused the 12v bus to drop and cause the soliton to 'have a momentary jitter'

It's very frustrating at the moment as the brusa charger actually keeps the 12v battery topped up if the car is left plugged in. I recently moved house and haven't got any EVSE at home so the car simply isn't left plugged in when it is not in use.


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## mira9_cz (Feb 27, 2013)

skooler said:


> Soliton shows a 12v low error.
> 
> @Mira clutch issues???


Some time ago you had mentioned slipping clutch and that you are thinking about upgrade to paddle clutch. I'm wondering how it is performing?

When I had driven Mazda with small 12V battery, I had 12V low voltage error almost every driving. Once it switched off completely when the voltage was under 10V. No unexpected behavior, simply the controller will switch off, I never not noticed anything strange there.


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## skooler (Mar 26, 2011)

mira9_cz said:


> Some time ago you had mentioned slipping clutch and that you are thinking about upgrade to paddle clutch. I'm wondering how it is performing?
> 
> When I had driven Mazda with small 12V battery, I had 12V low voltage error almost every driving. Once it switched off completely when the voltage was under 10V. No unexpected behavior, simply the controller will switch off, I never not noticed anything strange there.


Yes I still have some slip in the clutch. I get around it by lowering the ramp rate and starting in lower gears. 2nd is usually fine but 3rd does have some slip.

I plan to add another 24 cells very soon (bringing me up to 30KWH). While the car is off the road I'll pull the drivetrain and swap the clutch out.

I have already spoken to a UK company (CG Motorsport) who have said they can make me a stage 3 unsprung paddle clutch to fit the 5 speed rx8 flywheel.

For background the 5 speed gear ratios is better suited to electric than the 6 speed but it uses a smaller flywheel. None of the aftermarket performance clutches are made for the smaller flywheel. 

It is also important to be unsprung as the instant torque shocks the springs and causes pulsing when pulling off.


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## skooler (Mar 26, 2011)

Quick Update.

Car still good after the minor hiccup a couple of weeks a o.

I'm having issues with the modular EV power billet aluminium (EVTV) charge inlet. All of the taps have degraded over time and the part is now floating loose behind the filler cap. I will replace with a proper inlet from the AZD breakup.

Just confirmed the purchase of a Soliton 1 so 400 more amps (66%).

Car will be at the 'EVolution' show in Frome (UK) on 29th March along with our 4kw scooter https://speakev.com/threads/mar-29-...uring-an-ev-world-record-frome-somerset.4331/

I have 24 more Sinopoly 100AH cells ready to fit (currently being bottom balanced). Gets me to 32KWH. these will be installed in empty space under the bonnet which will unfortunately affect the weight distribution.

Also looking at adding chademo - more details on this soon.

Also thinking of adding a towbar!


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## mira9_cz (Feb 27, 2013)

skooler said:


> Just confirmed the purchase of a Soliton 1 so 400 more amps (66%).
> 
> I have 24 more Sinopoly 100AH cells ready to fit (currently being bottom balanced). Gets me to 32KWH. these will be installed in empty space under the bonnet which will unfortunately affect the weight distribution.



Congratulations to Soliton1!

I really do not understand where do you plan to fit 24 more cells AND Soliton1!?
I guess for 32 kWh you count with 3.2V per cell, so 100 cells? I have 98 cells. 34 in rear box, 24 in front-bottom box, which we have about same sized. The rest of my cells I have where your Soliton Jr. seats now with some other I guess easily relocatable stuff. But the spot I had found for my Soliton Jr. is too small for Soliton1 or for any Sinopoly 100Ah cells. I probably could find spot for let's say 5 more cells, but thats it! No chance for me for Soliton1. So where the hell do are you going to fit it?


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## skooler (Mar 26, 2011)

mira9_cz said:


> Congratulations to Soliton1!
> 
> I really do not understand where do you plan to fit 24 more cells AND Soliton1!?
> I guess for 32 kWh you count with 3.2V per cell, so 100 cells? I have 98 cells. 34 in rear box, 24 in front-bottom box, which we have about same sized. The rest of my cells I have where your Soliton Jr. seats now with some other I guess easily relocatable stuff. But the spot I had found for my Soliton Jr. is too small for Soliton1 or for any Sinopoly 100Ah cells. I probably could find spot for let's say 5 more cells, but thats it! No chance for me for Soliton1. So where the hell do are you going to fit it?


 Hi Mira,

My top battery box has never had any cells in it. It houses a HV distribution box, DCDC converter and 12v battery. the 12v battery can easily move to the boot and the 24 cells will then easily fit in the top box. 

I have enough space behind my Jr to fit the Soliton 1 in. almost a straight swap but I do need to support one side as the bolt holes will not line up.


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## skooler (Mar 26, 2011)

Quick update. Today I moved the 12v battery (Bosch 018 S4) from the front upper battery box to the boot.

I have a sub and amp in the boot on a removable panel. Hadent been out since installed over a year ago so was interesting to remember where all the screws were! The 12v wiring needed some attention but quite usefully. About a year ago I ran 25mm cable to the boot for the amp which is now perfect for the main supply from the battery to the fusebox.

Front upper box, battery was on rhs where clips are.









Boot with no panel.









Close up of battery and mounting bracket.









All installed.


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## mira9_cz (Feb 27, 2013)

skooler said:


> About a year ago I ran 25mm cable to the boot for the amp which is now perfect for the main supply from the battery to the fusebox.


Good job reusing the audio cable! Personally I think those 120A they say that RX-8 EPS can consume is only peak value, reachable maximum for tenths of sec. But to be sure I had used thick enough cables as well


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## pavel174 (Mar 7, 2012)

Hi, Skooler. I watch your conversion Mazda wondering if this is my Mazda in Russian forum (you can translate the site into English using Google translator.)
http://electrotransport.ru/ussr/index.php?topic=22327.0
I put the car registered in the police and 06/09/2015 for 9 September will be 3 months I exploiting cars, and even have a small video clip filmed for those who doubted the capacity of the car.
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=TmImNUD02ao
For creativity has no boundaries
Pavel.
Sity Chelyabynsk, Russia.


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## skooler (Mar 26, 2011)

Pavel, I love electric doughnuts! Great fun!

Time for a long overdue update..

I've deliberately been quiet as the car was involved in an accident back in March. I didn't want to post anything which may have affected the (already complicated) insurance claim.

The car was parked charging outside the workshop, there is a steep hill on the 30 yards leading to our workshop. The postman stopped at the unit uphill from us, forgot to apply his handbrake and rolled down the hill into the rear of the RX8. The RX8 was pushed back about 3 foot into a customers Smith Edison (transit van) and also taken out the corner of our workshop. The van has been pushed back about a foot too!

Damage initially appeared superficial and limited to just bodywork: rear bumper, rear quarter, tail-light, front bumper, bonnet and two front wings.

however, after having a half decent look at the car it became clear that the rear battery box had been crushed and two cells in the rear box where bleeding down to 0v. 

I sought permission from my insurers to remove the pack for safety reasons and the day after the accident all cells where removed and isolated. The two 'crushed' cells had now severely bloated. because the other cells in the pack may also have been damaged the entire pack has been scrapped at cost to me.

Our building was hit so hard that the roller door (about 2 foot from impact) wouldn't close properly and a tooway satellite internet dish on the other side has been knocked off track.

Its taken almost 6 months to get a pay-out from the third party insurers which nowhere near covers the cost to rebuild but it was a take what is offered now or go to court and fight for more kind of situation. I don't have time to deal with a court case so had to compromise.

I'm going to take the opportunity to make a few changes. The bodywork repair actually works out cheaper to fit a bodykit than OEM panels so my paint and body guy will be fitting a 'veilside' kit to the car.









I'm also considering air suspension as the car gets used at a lot of shows and currently sits a little too low (scrapes on speedbumps). Trying to find a good UK supplier hasn't been easy.

Other than that I need to have a little tidy up under the bonnet. The HV distribution is still exposed (hasn't been touched since the car was running on lead!) so that will all be getting boxed up. 

That means I need to play about with layouts as I also have a Soliton1 to fit in perfectly and a DCDC converter to move. I'm thinking of limiting the current to 700A (rather than 900A) to protect the motor. This still works out at 175KW/230HP. 900A would be 225KW/300HP.

The DCDC converter (meanwell 750w power supply from EVTV) will be getting swapped for a properly IP rated TDK unit.

I have re-ordered 98* Sinopoly 100AH cells - every cell on the car will be brand new. Also considering filling what is left of the boot with 98* 40AH cells (150KG) in parallel for ~45KWH total but not sure what that'll do for handling and I'd then be right on the gross weight limit for the car. Should be about 120miles real world range at 300WH/mile (I used to get 270ish wh/mile).

Building and car directly after crash.









Rear quarter.









(Custom) Front bumper pushed into smith Edison.









Panel gap on front bumper.









The Smith Edison's tire tracks showing how far it had been pushed (through the RX8!).


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## Moltenmetal (Mar 20, 2014)

So sorry to hear your beautiful work was damaged! Glad to hear it's under repair. Hope you can sell your other cells- doubt they're damaged enough that someone else can't make some kind of use of them!


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## Roderick (Dec 8, 2013)

i've been reading your build thread again and again (almost 3 times) to keep me motivated to go through with my own build, so thank you for all the updates. 
How's the car doing now?


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## skooler (Mar 26, 2011)

Unfortunaltely its not back togethor yet - work commitments have taken priority.

It needs to be at a show in July so hopefully there should be some progress over the coming weeks.

It has had a new component shelf created and the HV distribution reworked. I will write that up at some point.

It has been just over a year without it now.


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## Kevin Sharpe (Jul 4, 2011)

Some good news


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## tylerwatts (Feb 9, 2012)

Awesome, how about a bit of news on it Skooler?


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## skooler (Mar 26, 2011)

Hi All.

So a quick update. Last one was in 2015!

I have been quite busy building up a business (indra.co.uk). Which has gone from 1 employee to 25 since my last post here. Customer work comes first!

As part of the crash repair I had the Veilside body kit installed. This had the effect of making the car sit even lower so we have had to modify the suspension, the bottom of the car already scraped on speedbumps so the whole car needed to come up. While we were at it *everything* on the underside has been replaced or refurbished. That includes polybush all round, coilovers, air suspension, new arms, balljoints etc. After 3 years sat more or less still there was likely to be problems! One of the pictures below shows the problem getting the car into the recover truck.


Batteries have faired up well. Of the original 98, two were damaged in the crash and immediately discarded. The batteries were stored at around 60% SOC. The pack was put into series and run down to 2.700v using a large discharger (basically a giant toaster) to check balance before going back into the car. All cells but one were within 0.003v if eachother when reaching 2.7v (proves bottom balance theory) but another cell adjacent to the crash damaged ones had a much lower voltage. I suspect an internal short caused by the crash.

Either way. I'm now down to 95 100ah Sinopoly LiFePO4 cells.











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## skooler (Mar 26, 2011)

Amazingly I forgot to take any pictures while re-assembling the battery.

Layout is the same as before. 36 cells in the rear box (under the boot floor), 38 in the front lower box (in front of the motor), and 21 in the front upper box (on show). Rather than using glands all HV connections are made with Amphenol Radlok connectors which meant minor mods to the battery boxes. It makes for a much neater and safer connection.

Also worth adding that all cabling was upgraded from 50 to 70mm sq. I was originally running the solitonJR but with the Soliton1 peak current has gone from 600A to 1,000A. I am capping motor voltage at 250v so in theory have 250kW to play with.

This twitter post probably best shows under the bonnet.

https://twitter.com/pureevuk/status/1005572985284104192?s=19 

Air suspension is proving a little bit of a faff, hence the car sitting silly low at the moment. I have purchased a "static kit" from stance solutions. It is basically a large piston that sits between the coilover spring and the strut top. When pressurised it lifts the car 50mm by pushing down on the spring. Its a nice compromise to a full air-ride style system and supposedly doesnt effect handling as it is completely rigid.

Issue i am having is the top of the coil spring is larger than the 'cup' on the air system so springs need changing. Then the piston size (22mm) isnt as advertised on the coilovers that were fitted. This means the rod to the strut top doesnt make a good seal to the "static kit".










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## serges (Jun 4, 2012)

Beautiful work.

Congrats for the job well done.


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## skooler (Mar 26, 2011)

Just found this photo of the battery being discharged.

Originally bottom balanced in 2012. Removed from vehicle in 2015. Stored on pallet. Put back in series in 2018 and all within 0.003v [emoji41]

We got a lot of attention at fully charged live.









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## skooler (Mar 26, 2011)

Anyone know where my last 2-3 posts have gone!? Thats annoying!

Now road legal again and being used as a daily driver.









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## favguy (May 2, 2008)

Apparently a cock up with the forum has caused all posts between certain dates to disappear! There's a post about it somewhere nearby.

Car is looking good


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## skooler (Mar 26, 2011)

So forum appears to be fixed and looks as though the ?missing posts in this thread are back!

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## Danilofrias (Jul 25, 2018)

skooler said:


> So forum appears to be fixed and looks as though the ?missing posts in this thread are back!
> 
> Sent from my SM-N950F using Tapatalk



hello man, first of all, congratulations for your work.
i am converting my car too and I would love to see your EV photos (motor, batteries and controller)
I can not see any pictures from you thread.

regards,
Danilo


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## skooler (Mar 26, 2011)

Danilofrias said:


> hello man, first of all, congratulations for your work.
> i am converting my car too and I would love to see your EV photos (motor, batteries and controller)
> I can not see any pictures from you thread.
> 
> ...


The images are there but you need to use a browser that will allow you to see non encrypted (https) content.

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## sparo11 (Jun 26, 2012)

Hello Skooler


My name is Robert from Slovenija. I am finishing to convert RX8 too.
I will like to know if the solution of EPS steering it can be implemented on Macchina M2 or you have another solution?
If not I am prepared to buy Your solution. 



Thanks,


Robert


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