# Is the World On the Cusp of a Solar Energy Boom?



## EVDL Archive (Jul 26, 2007)

Solar energy equipment costs are dropping dramatically offering the possibility of a a period of strong economic growth.

More...


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## PhantomPholly (Aug 20, 2008)

Not until we can store it too. The chart is eye-opening, though.

In-ev-i-ta-ble......


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## jeremyjs (Sep 22, 2010)

I dunno. We could still install a large amount of solar before that becomes an issue. The often quoted number is 20% or so; before the lack of storage begins to have negative consequences.


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## Mark C (Jun 25, 2010)

I'm thinking some time in the next couple of years, getting some of the Iron Edison style batteries, a small tracking mount and 1000 rated watts of solar and taking our garage / workshop {sorta'} off grid. I'd put it in with a generator transfer switch to stay on battery power most of the time, but be able to switch back to the grid when there are extended periods of lousy weather. We have almost no wind resource in my neck of the woods...

We have 6810 watts solar rated power and if the garage workshop worked out well and its priced came down some, I could see a Sunny Island for the house too.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

Aren't we all building mobile solar electric storage units?


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## piotrsko (Dec 9, 2007)

sorry, mine is carbon powered storage courtesy NV energy.

I recall a time when the Chinese dumped silicon and the prices came down for a while.


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## PhantomPholly (Aug 20, 2008)

Mark C said:


> I'm thinking some time in the next couple of years, getting some of the Iron Edison style batteries, a small tracking mount and 1000 rated watts of solar and taking our garage / workshop {sorta'} off grid. I'd put it in with a generator transfer switch to stay on battery power most of the time, but be able to switch back to the grid when there are extended periods of lousy weather. We have almost no wind resource in my neck of the woods...
> 
> We have 6810 watts solar rated power and if the garage workshop worked out well and its priced came down some, I could see a Sunny Island for the house too.


I researched that a while back. Apparently there is still one outfit in china building NiFe batteries, but it is very difficult to reach them. There is an outfit in the U.S. that refurbishes old cells, too. Price per Kwh of storage is not competitive with other batteries, and overall efficiency is considerably worse as well.


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## ElectriCar (Jun 15, 2008)

I wanted this when I was 23 in the 80's. Way out of reach back then. Last I looked into it was in 07. It was close to being affordable for me back then, payback wise. Now I'm looking at 15 years or so until retirement so payback time must be quick. I think I figured I'd need about 8-10kw to minimize my power company payment. Payback back then was about 20 years I'm thinking. Now I've found a 7kw American or Japanese made system for about $7000, panels only plus a grid tie converter adds another $3000 or so. Add racks, wiring, self installation and government rebate, it's close to being worth while.


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## ElectriCar (Jun 15, 2008)

Pricing links and sources.
http://www.ecobusinesslinks.com/surveys/free-solar-panel-price-survey/


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## ElectriCar (Jun 15, 2008)

This says my payback with DIY is about 5 years. Dang I better reconsider this!
http://find-solar.org/index.php?page=solar-calculator


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## Caps18 (Jun 8, 2008)

My house is solar powered. I just got my 2nd "No Payment Due" electric bill. And my previous month's bills have all been cut by quite a bit.

Now, it might take years to pay off, but they will someday. You can't say that about sticking with the electric company. And solar panels do add value to your house if you were going to sell your house.


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## Arlo (Dec 27, 2009)

ElectriCar said:


> This says my payback with DIY is about 5 years. Dang I better reconsider this!
> http://find-solar.org/index.php?page=solar-calculator


 5 years payback is very good. I was looking at the price of Cheep chips on egay and the cells them self's would be payback in ~2 years but that does not include anything.


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## ElectriCar (Jun 15, 2008)

I would buy American, Korean or Canadian before Chinese. They just too often cut corners to save a nickel costing the consumer much more in poor performance, shorter life than expected. But that's me. I've been burned too much with Chinese products, especially rubber/plastics tires etc. Just don't hold up well at all. Even the Calb batteries I bought 2 years ago weren't labeled correctly it appears with the correct IR and capacity based on what I observed with charging and operation. 

And the payback on mine I think is more like 8-10 years, still worthwhile for a quality system!


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## Mark C (Jun 25, 2010)

When the wife and I built each of our two solar arrays, I specified American made products when possible. I'd rather pay a little bit extra and buy domestic. The length of the payback is something I struggled with for a while until I compared it to buying someone else's juice. That never pays back. 

Our little array {6 x 175W Sharp modules} payback by itself is around 19 years. Our bigger array {24 x 240W Sharp modules} payback by itself is about 11 years, together they come out to a bit over 12 years, less if the price of TVA electricity goes up. {It's scheduled to go up next month, but I don't know how much.}

We've spent a great deal of effort improving efficiency at the house too so I'll have more excess power available to charge my {I'm gonna' have one someday } EV.


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## ElectriCar (Jun 15, 2008)

Well considering Obama's comments here and what has happened since, payback will only accelerate over time. Our rates have gone up twice since he took office, up about 20% I believe.


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## IamIan (Mar 29, 2009)

ElectriCar said:


> This says my payback with DIY is about 5 years. Dang I better reconsider this!


5 year pay back is about comparable to a ~15% Interest Rate.
10 year pay back is about comparable to a ~7% Interest Rate.

From a financial investment point of view... It would take about that % interest rate for a savings account to be able to do a similar investment payback over that time period.


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## kerrymann (Feb 17, 2011)

PhantomPholly said:


> Not until we can store it too. The chart is eye-opening, though.
> 
> In-ev-i-ta-ble......


Here you go:

http://www.abengoasolar.com/web/en/nuestras_plantas/plantas_en_construccion/estados_unidos/

~1.5GWhs of storage coming online. You have to see it in person to grasp how huge it really is.


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## PhantomPholly (Aug 20, 2008)

jeremyjs said:


> I dunno. We could still install a large amount of solar before that becomes an issue. The often quoted number is 20% or so; before the lack of storage begins to have negative consequences.


Yes, and no. As alternative energy increases, it starts backing traditional power "into a corner." In order to provide steady power, the traditional power plants must drop or bump generation in bigger and bigger swings as their portion of total generation becomes a smaller percentage of the total. 

The bigger the swings, the lower the overall efficiency of the plant - raising costs for the non-alternative power.

Imagine the swing if you had, say, Death Vally full of solar panels and a single clout wandered over 50% of the valley for 30 minutes. Yikes - just dropped 20% of local power in just a few minutes during the peak of daytime usage! Hurry, get that generator on line - then OOPS, shut it down!!!


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## PhantomPholly (Aug 20, 2008)

kerrymann said:


> Here you go:
> 
> http://www.abengoasolar.com/web/en/nuestras_plantas/plantas_en_construccion/estados_unidos/
> 
> ~1.5GWhs of storage coming online. You have to see it in person to grasp how huge it really is.


1,900 acres is an awful lot of land! Still, this is a good start.

I'll be curious to see in a few years if it really was a good investment. Don't seem to be seeing a lot of those from our gub'mint.


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## Hoosier_Daddy (Nov 8, 2011)

My father has been using solar energy for about 15 years. I helped him upgrade his panels to 4.6 KWh output. He moved up to a 48 volt system from his original 12 volt system. I'm not sure how many batteries he has now. The system is tied to a 6 KWh inverter with the ability to add another one.

He runs 2 geothermal units, 2 large electric water heaters and an electric dryer on the new system. I am installing the "old' 12 volt system at my house soon. I am currently doing some pricing on 300-400 watt panels for a barn I'm having built soon to house the system.

Energy storage really is the key since the cost of panels has came down to somewhat affordable levels. If a person can get their hands on affordable forklift batteries they are great for storage.


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