# Racing at EVCCON!



## JRoque (Mar 9, 2010)

Good luck on that trip, Ron. Drive safely.

(there.. fake well wishing just so I can secretly subscribe to this thread for when he posts those pics/vids... ha ha ha....)

Have a good one!

JR


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## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

EVCCON, largest EV Drag Racing Event for 2011! We had Tesla's to Prius Limos racing, over 30 cars drag raced, will have exact number when I return home. Great time! Wonderful people from around the World. Videos, pictures and results will be posted soon! I want to thank Jack and Brian for hosting such a great event, I also would like to thank all the volunteers that helped ECEDRS / IEDRA with Sanctioning this event.


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## albano (Jan 12, 2009)

Can't wait to see the photos and video. Drive safely!


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## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

Here's a nice compilation video by a local newspaper:






And the article that goes with it:

http://www.semissourian.com/story/1766742.html?response=no

The poor clutch in the 911 was smoking up a storm and Seb was seriously miffed that the Tesla beat him in the drag race. Afterwards, the transmission was leaking oil so the case might be a little - uh - WarPed... 

I've met some great folks at the convention, and even ol' Ron wasn't half so bad in person 

I have two good videos - one of Ron racing by himself and the other of Seb and the Tesla. Just need to rotate one of them 90 degrees and upload both of them to YouTube, etc...


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## albano (Jan 12, 2009)

Wow, thank for posting the video, can't wait to see the rest!


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## JRoque (Mar 9, 2010)

Hey. The full video might tell a diff story but it looks like Seb 1. was a tad slow off the gate and 2. repaved the strip with rubber. A quicker reaction and slower punch might have gotten it.

More videos!!

JR


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Looks like fun, would have liked to have been there.


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## atzi (Jun 26, 2008)

Jack and Brain did a brilliant thing adding racing to EVCCON. (also thanks ECEDRA)

First for the EV guys after attending the excellent lecturers, Jacks comments and question and answer sessions it was time to play. Both drag and the road race were a real adrenalin boost. Very few EVs broke (one Dodge broke an axle on the road race)
Second for the public. They (about 200 my estimate) saw all varieties of electric cars racing, squalling tires accelerating from average car speed to very quick, and handling well in the road race. Electric cars Hummm.......
Great event.


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## Guest (Sep 25, 2011)

Here is a quickie clip of Seb's 911 dual motor setup. Of course the Soliton1.


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## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

JRoque said:


> Hey. The full video might tell a diff story but it looks like Seb 1. was a tad slow off the gate and 2. repaved the strip with rubber. A quicker reaction and slower punch might have gotten it.
> 
> More videos!!
> 
> JR


Yep, you more or less nailed it. Seb caught up with the Tesla (they are kind of slow off the launch then suddenly pick up speed) then Seb said he went to shift from 2nd to 3rd and put it into 5th instead. That's when the Tesla once again started pulling away from him. Seb did a 14.6, IIRC, and the Tesla just kept nailing 13.1 or 13.2 and near enough to 100mph to not matter. Extremely consistent, those Teslas, but not nearly as much fun to watch (or ride in) as the 911. Not that I'm biased or anything... 

Oh, and there is already a Kennedy Stage IV clutch in the 911... so, he's thinking of going up to a larger diameter (225mm?) and maybe a different tranny.


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## Qer (May 7, 2008)

Jeffreys vid of Rons race. Enjoy.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Tesseract said:


> Seb said he went to shift from 2nd to 3rd and put it into 5th instead.


The Tesla doesn't have to deal with those pesky gear shifts.  When I was mud racing my truck, (with an automatic), I had a little plate I could lock in place so the transmission couldn't go into third, or neutral , and I could just bang back and forth between first and second without worry. Seb might be able to do something similar to prevent fifth from being selected.


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## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

Thanks QER,

Ran three times, all three had to let off and pedal the car, Airport concrete was fine for all cars but mine, too much torque not enough grip. I still had fun and pulled 11's. Everyone loved drag racing their cars and trucks, the Tesla must have raced atleast 20 times, love Sebastion's car, He let me take it for a ride, very very fast! Soliton just kept feeding them motors, he would have beat the Tesla with a stronger clutch, he had too much torque than the clutch could handle! Can't wait for next year!



Qer said:


> Jeffreys vid of Rons race. Enjoy.


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## albano (Jan 12, 2009)

Nice one there Ron, I see you guys had lots of fun!


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## rochesterricer (Jan 5, 2011)

JRP3 said:


> The Tesla doesn't have to deal with those pesky gear shifts.  When I was mud racing my truck, (with an automatic), I had a little plate I could lock in place so the transmission couldn't go into third, or neutral , and I could just bang back and forth between first and second without worry. Seb might be able to do something similar to prevent fifth from being selected.


I suspect he may just go with the 4-speed from an older 911 Turbo if he is thinking of switching trannys. Its supposed to be pretty strong.


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## imwoody36 (Sep 25, 2011)

Hi Everyone
I am Steve Woodruff, I built the "Primo" 
I hope to expand upon the friendships we started at EVCcon!


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## GizmoEV (Nov 28, 2009)

imwoody36 said:


> Hi Everyone
> I am Steve Woodruff, I built the "Primo"
> I hope to expand upon the friendships we started at EVCcon!


Welcome to the Forum!

I have to say, the "Primo" is an unexpected sight! Awesome.


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## imwoody36 (Sep 25, 2011)

thanks Giz! I just looked at your 3wheeler.
you could have entered the xprize last year.


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## albano (Jan 12, 2009)

imwoody36 said:


> Hi Everyone
> I am Steve Woodruff, I built the "Primo"
> I hope to expand upon the friendships we started at EVCcon!


Welcome aboard Steve.

"Primo" in my language mean cousin


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

"Primo", love it


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## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

rochesterricer said:


> I suspect he may just go with the 4-speed from an older 911 Turbo if he is thinking of switching trannys. Its supposed to be pretty strong.


Yep, we've heard the same recommendation from a couple of other people so Seb will probably look into it... And though I'm guessing the stock tranny would be worth a lot more if it still functioned, I suspect Seb won't get the 4-speed until he's wrecked this one...


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## efan (Aug 27, 2009)

Tesseract said:


> Yep, we've heard the same recommendation from a couple of other people so Seb will probably look into it... And though I'm guessing the stock tranny would be worth a lot more if it still functioned, I suspect Seb won't get the 4-speed until he's wrecked this one...


first time I am seeing this Porsche conversion...
wouldn't it be great advertisement for the Soliton product if you guys post more information, pictures, and videos of conversions you do (this porsche, I think there was a jaguar and other)?
or is there a reason these conversions are kept quiet?


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## EVfun (Mar 14, 2010)

efan said:


> first time I am seeing this Porsche conversion...
> wouldn't it be great advertisement for the Soliton product if you guys post more information, pictures, and videos of conversions you do (this porsche, I think there was a jaguar and other)?
> or is there a reason these conversions are kept quiet?


They still break something every quarter mile?


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## Guest (Sep 26, 2011)

You don't see a lot of the conversions here because most quit posting long ago because of the BS here. But rest assured they are being built. Damn nice and fast ones too. Top quality builds. Yes with the torque of the motors and the power of the controllers parts are still breaking and not holding up. Had some busted axles and transmissions this time around and a few smoking clutches.


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## EVfun (Mar 14, 2010)

Hey Pete, did you bring an EV to EVCCON? In honor of EVCCON  I turned up the Zilla some more. The 60 amp hour TS cells seem happy to dish out 450 amps (7.5C.)


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## Guest (Sep 26, 2011)

No I did not but wished I had brought the Leaf. My Hi-Power cells are rated at .5C continuous but always hit them with brief periods of 7 and even 8C. Continuous of at least 2C. They just dish it out. Anyway the entire EVCCON Conference was excellent. Here is another race flick to enjoy. The flicks can be seen in HD.


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## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

Hey Guys it seems the party has continued! Here are the results from the drag racing, and pictures! Enjoy. 

http://www.ecedra.com/evccon2011.html


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## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

Nice video! Who is the guy on the line with the big mouth! LOL.
All the drivers did very well, a minute of instructions and only one red light for the day! 



gottdi said:


> Here is a quickie clip of Seb's 911 dual motor setup. Of course the Soliton1.


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## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

Thank you! Jack and Brian put on an exhilarating event, nothing but class every day. 



atzi said:


> Jack and Brain did a brilliant thing adding racing to EVCCON. (also thanks ECEDRA)
> 
> First for the EV guys after attending the excellent lecturers, Jacks comments and question and answer sessions it was time to play. Both drag and the road race were a real adrenalin boost. Very few EVs broke (one Dodge broke an axle on the road race)
> Second for the public. They (about 200 my estimate) saw all varieties of electric cars racing, squalling tires accelerating from average car speed to very quick, and handling well in the road race. Electric cars Hummm.......
> Great event.


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## DIYguy (Sep 18, 2008)

It was a great event. i had a blast. I must say Ron, hats off to you as well. You spent a lot of time lining everyone up for every race and making sure it went well. Good on ya.


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## Guest (Sep 27, 2011)

Ron, 

I second that excellent work. The races were a blast. Nice to be up close and personal. I learned a lot. Thanks.

Pete 

Thanks for the race times and photos on your site. I can now use the times to put to my clips of what I got on my video for the races.


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## atzi (Jun 26, 2008)

EVCCON was not focusing on racing, but racing shows the crowd the EVs are not golf carts anymore. 
Maybe they can replace their cars or trucks with an electric conversion?

Here is a 40 second video I took of Brian Noto and a glimpse of the activities around him.


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## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

Thanks Guys! I enjoyed every minute.

We are holding an EV Expo at Lebanon Valley Dragway in NY, May 2012. This event will be EV's ONLY! we have rented the track for the day. The event will also have a car show and vendors tents. Huge parking lots around the track, plenty of space for all spectators and EV's. Please see: www.ECEDRA.com for additional info. 

FREE CHARGING!


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## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

Press-Release!

http://www.prnewswire.com/news-rele...-vehicle-conversion-convention-130636398.html


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## JRoque (Mar 9, 2010)

Congrats Ron!

This one's for the $20K contest winner: http://www.prnewswire.com/news-rele...-vehicle-conversion-convention-130646778.html

JR


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Here's a nice parade of vehicles:


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## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

*Thank you Jack Rickard for the kind words and support! This post has been copied from the NEDRA Forum:*

"I know John. None of that would be allowed. Your mission to reach irrelevancy
on a world-wide basis is looking very good. But you'll have your helmet on
anyway.

The rest of this is just cross typing to please yourselves. Lead was not banned
at this race. In fact, we had one Lead acid car in it.

The EVTV Open was always for full bodied four wheel cars. Someone did ask if
street legal cars could compete and I thought I answered that of course they
could. If you all interpreted that as something else, I'm sorry. But nothing
ever changed. I did not think it would be fair to pit motorcycles against cars
as there are some very fast motorcycles, and we're more interested in cars.

The issue of lead was that I was not going to discount their attendance at the
event - not that they couldn't come or could not enter. I did clarify that
several times. There is no possibility of misunderstanding. We even had a
couple. But after EVCCON, they're shopping for LiFePo4 pretty hard.

Yes, of course we had an ambulance and the fire station on hand. It was at the
city airport and the city was very supportive. This was not a bunch of EV's
getting together at somebody ELSE's track as "part" of the festivities. This
was our playday. And we did indeed play.

Great fun. And a good time was had by all. The elitism you strive for is
inappropriate even on you. Your ongoing personal mission of self-aggrandizement
is immature and childish.

Everyone who brought a car got to race if they wanted to. And some who did NOT
bring a car got to race someone else's.

YES HORROR OF HORROR OH HOLIER THAN THOU. We had a trailer full of beer. Free
coke for the kiddies. Balloon animals.

And a 2007 Toyoto Prius Stretch Limo that will no doubt do more for the cause
than your 10 years of self-aggrandizing self promotion in a two ton lead rat ass
Datsun.

Let's see, did I miss anything.


The surface was quite safe. But not fast.

SCCA St. Louis ran the autocross. Everyone wore helmets. We had announcers and
large public display clocks. Everyone went around the course with an SCCA
member first. It was great fun. Lost a side bet about the Spyder 550 and Duane
Ball's gorgeous Porsche Carrera GTS 904 replica, but other than that a decent
day. Our redux did a 14.75. I'm sure not a world record but I was very pleased
with its performance myself. And young Hauber just pretty much came back wet
after driving it.

The rest of your message was kind of boring, self serving, and obviously miffed
about something. I'm sure if there was anything substantive I would have
remembererd it and covered it.

Next year is September 26-30th and we've booked the larger Show Me Center. 
We're planning for about 800 and maybe 100 cars. The smoked prime rib and again
for you neoabolitionsists Silver Oak Alexander Valley Cabertnet Sauvignon were
well received.

Brandon Hollinger received the 50 CALB 180Ah cells, teh Netgain Warp 9 which he
is upgrading to a Netgain 11HV I understand, the Soliton1, a REchargCar magnetic
pickup, a Masterflux Air Conditioner compressor, oh yeah a CASE OF STAG BEER. I
understand he's converting a 1974 Austin FX London Taxi - probably not up to
you're all's aspirations but I think it will be a great build. We'll follow it
on EVTV.

Ron Adamowicz received recognition at the "did I say smoked prime rib" dinner
along with a check for $2500 - I understand that's not normally done in your
more serious and oh so "professional" races.

Oh, and by the way. Ron Adamowicz is as nice a guy as I've ever met. He was
absolutely over the top in trying to help not us put on an event we ADMITTEDLY
KNOW NOTHING ABOUT, but helped everyone there to participate, feel comfortable
with it, and enjoy it. There was no "prima donna" or any of this "I'm a real
drag racer and you ain't crap" so prevalant on this particular discussion group.
He was a gentleman and polite to all. Cheerful in all weathers. Splendid
behavior. And no car was too slow or too poor for him to treat just as if it
was the next National Champion. I was very impressed with this young man.

That he suffers fools poorly is a mark in his favor. Not a negative in my book.

We will be manning an expedition in support of his just announced May event in
New York, with several cars, and no doubt several cases of Stag beer. We may
sponsor one of the races. And we'll undoubtedly host a hospitality suite there,
just because we can.

Bottom line is we upped our game. Ron upped his game. Now up yours!"

* "MarionR" <[email protected]> *
marionrickard 

http://sports.groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA/message/11548


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

I must admit that I got the impression that Jack did no want any lead vehicles there. I didn't pay close attention since I wasn't going, but I can certainly see where one might get the idea that lead powered vehicles were not welcome.
I was also surprised that a non street legal purpose built dragster was in same racing class as all the other vehicles and eligible for the prize money. Obviously there was no other competition in the same league so you were pretty much guaranteed a win and a $2500 pay check for showing up.


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## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

The two cars were in separate classes, but that had nothing to do with the purse. From day one Jack posted the purse will be for the fastest car period. Anyone could have one from any class, just needed to be the faster.



JRP3 said:


> I must admit that I got the impression that Jack did no want any lead vehicles there. I didn't pay close attention since I wasn't going, but I can certainly see where one might get the idea that lead powered vehicles were not welcome.
> I was also surprised that a non street legal purpose built dragster was in same racing class as all the other vehicles and eligible for the prize money. Obviously there was no other competition in the same league so you were pretty much guaranteed a win and a $2500 pay check for showing up.


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## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

http://youtu.be/uJLMg1VNfmU


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## imwoody36 (Sep 25, 2011)

watched all of it, The Helicopter views of the drag race were awesome.
I did not even realize there was a cool pattern on the tarmac.
still some difference of views on battery management systems and fires.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Gadget stopped in at Jacks blog and explained that his fire was not BMS/battery related at all and was clearly arson.
Assuming every EV fire is BMS related is as wrong as assuming all BMS's are perfectly safe.


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## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

Hmmmn, not sure what to think about Gadget's comments. It is possible that arson caused the fire, but it sure looked like the fire started in one place, and that is the one car that "melted" to the ground. The other cars did not burn as bad. If it was arson, then the guy who lit the fire must have poured a flammable liquid onto that one car. I wish the best for all EV builders, but could it be Gadget is just covering his tail?



JRP3 said:


> Gadget stopped in at Jacks blog and explained that his fire was not BMS/battery related at all and was clearly arson.
> Assuming every EV fire is BMS related is as wrong as assuming all BMS's are perfectly safe.


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## Guest (Oct 5, 2011)

LithiumaniacsEVRacing said:


> http://youtu.be/uJLMg1VNfmU


Ron,

Here is my video of your 1/4 mile run at EVCCON.


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## Guest (Oct 5, 2011)

LithiumaniacsEVRacing said:


> Hmmmn, not sure what to think about Gadget's comments. It is possible that arson caused the fire, but it sure looked like the fire started in one place, and that is the one car that "melted" to the ground. The other cars did not burn as bad. If it was arson, then the guy who lit the fire must have poured a flammable liquid onto that one car. I wish the best for all EV builders, but could it be Gadget is just covering his tail?


Ron,

Regardless of what Gadget said on Jacks Blog, I clearly saw two types of burn. I'd say he is covering his tail on this one and will likely stick to his story. I don't buy it. There is a difference between getting burned and burning to the point of just gone. One was just gone and the others were just burned. That does not happen in arson fires. If it were arson I'd expect all of them to have been just burned and not gone. Really, that one car was just GONE. Compare what is left of that to the others. Looked very much like the fire on the barge. One gone the others just burned. 

Pete


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## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

Cool Thank you!



gottdi said:


> Ron,
> 
> Here is my video of your 1/4 mile run at EVCCON.


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## Guest (Oct 5, 2011)

LithiumaniacsEVRacing said:


> Cool Thank you!


Your very welcome.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Some of you seem so ready to blame a BMS for everything you apparently aren't reading clearly. Obviously the fire was also investigated by professionals and found not to be the fault of the vehicle. Gadget has been around a long time and has a good reputation, not the type of guy to throw out bold faced lies.



> The car that was burnt to the ground was the speedster. It had a 100 cell lithium polymer battery pack. The car looked fairly burned out, but that is because it was fiberglass. Once you lifted up the glass mat to see the cells below, the plastic was still white, so they were not the source of fire. The fire was started on the roof of the building. I was asleep inside the building when the fire started. There was black smoke inside the building sitting about 7 feet off the ground. The air below was fairly clear, and the room was dark. There was no light from a fire and the air was still. Within minutes the fire came through the roof. It come through directly above a car sitting on a lift. The hot tar poured onto that car and incinerated it. Then the acetylene tanks went next. The roof had three layers of hot mop on it. The liquid pouring through the hole in the roof fueled and inferno that melted the steel beams above. As we stood there at the end of the day watching the firemen mop up, a car passed by and some young men waved, My wife asked who they were. My heart sank... They were the guys who I busted attempting to graffiti my building a few weeks earlier. The firemen said that was probably them, "fire bugs love to check on their handywork"
> 
> Gadget


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## Guest (Oct 5, 2011)

It's not blame. There is no blame in what we have seen. No words can recant what is seen. Lots of people have good reputations in the world but can still be liars. I don't know him personally and neither do you. So to say he would not bold face lie is a bit out there. I am not saying HE did, but what is seen counters what was said.

Pete


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## Guest (Oct 5, 2011)

Could we be wrong? Of course. But it is a convenient story. Yes it could be true. That burn is not consistent with just being burned. He said it started over the car that burned, how convenient. What are the chances? Little chance that some kids tossing some sort of cocktail on the roof and it happens just be perfectly above the one that is in question. Then happens to burn melt then burn through and pour hot molten roofing goo directly on top of the car to have it burn the way it did. What we saw did not stack up to the story. Sorry.


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## EVfun (Mar 14, 2010)

I'd still be more inclined to believe someone who has actually been at the scene over people speculating about some photos (oh, and I have met Gadget.) Seeing how a building was lost I'm sure the fire will be properly investigated.


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## DavidDymaxion (Dec 1, 2008)

Gadget said that car was fiberglass. This implies (though not said directly) that the other cars were metal. Was that the case? I would of course expect a fiberglass car to look worse after a fire than a metal car.


> Hmmmn, not sure what to think about Gadget's comments. It is possible that arson caused the fire, but it sure looked like the fire started in one place, and that is the one car that "melted" to the ground. The other cars did not burn as bad. If it was arson, then the guy who lit the fire must have poured a flammable liquid onto that one car. I wish the best for all EV builders, but could it be Gadget is just covering his tail?


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

gottdi said:


> What we saw did not stack up to the story. Sorry.


So you are calling him a liar.


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## Guest (Oct 5, 2011)

You calling us liars?


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## Guest (Oct 5, 2011)

Little different story here. We also saw the footage. You?

Reverend Gadget's Summary

Sometime in the middle of the night I heard something in the shop fall... went back to sleep. 5:00 smell smoke... I get out of bed. I run down the hall and start to see smoke, as I get closer to the shop the smoke is getting thicker. I open the door to the shop and I see thick smoke hanging about 5 feet off of the floor... but it is pitch black out in the shop. I don't see any glow of a fire through the smoke, but can tell by the sound it was on the east side of the building. I shut off the power and run back to my wife.... CALL 911! I yelled. we then grabbed the computer and a box of pictures and ran outside. The fire department was there in 5 minutes. It took them one and a half hours to put out the blaze. everything is lost. 

But what an opportunity. A clean slate. I can focus on my passion of creating electric cars. Sure I lost a bunch of stuff but it can all be replaced. The shop was a nice piece of set dressing, but it did represent a lot of projects. Some unfinished, and some unstarted. Now I can do the things that are important. The first thing I need to do is do some salvaging of usable parts. I'm also looking for ideas. There must be a show in there somewhere. Like resurrecting the electric car?


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

gottdi said:


> You calling us liars?


You don't know the facts so you can't be intentionally distorting them, as you claim Gadget must be doing, because apparently you can't seem to imagine an EV burning from anything other than a BMS induced fire. Your LEAF has a BMS, are you concerned with it bursting into flames?


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## Guest (Oct 6, 2011)

I don't know the FACTS any more than you. The EVIDENCE speaks for it's self. They all follow the same theme. All have BMS systems on board, All have been DIY BMS systems, all were charging or the fires happened in the middle of the night. The car in question is always totally destroyed while leaving other remaining vehicles and items ruined or damaged but not total white hot destruction. I have nothing against you or any other but the physical evidence points to the same theme and it can't be coincidence any longer. All have the same components and all have the same type of damage and always one is a total loss to the point of ASH. I could care less what is said. What was said does not follow what is seen or known.


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## Guest (Oct 6, 2011)

No I do not worry about my Leaf burning down my vehicle. I'd worry about the many DIY BMS systems that are out there. I don't run one on my DIY builds and won't. My Leaf has one. Yes and I feel quite safe with that. I trust the OEM over the DIY back yard BMS hacks. I know some systems need a BMS but but not ones with LiFePO4. With LiPO I would say absolutely but not some cheap o HACK BMS which many are that are available to us.


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## Guest (Oct 6, 2011)

This is way off topic.


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## EVfun (Mar 14, 2010)

Pete, you seem to have a problem understanding the difference between "EVIDENCE" and "FACTS."

I suspect that any Lithium powered car that happens to get its battery pack lit on fire (by ANY source) will look the same. After, it isn't the BMS that does the burning, it is the flammable electrolyte in the battery pack.


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## Guest (Oct 6, 2011)

Its the plastic that does the burning. There is very little electrolyte that can burn in a cell. But you must get that plastic to burn. That takes quite a bit of direct heat. So if one car burns to the ground and the one next to it does not but has batteries in it but has no BMS installed yet. Well that says or better yet screams of some sort of heat source in the car that burned totally. So if the car next to it caught on fire but was not hot enough to get the plastic burning what does that say. ALL the fires have the same theme in common. ALL of them. FACTS, EVIDENCE. We will not see all the evidence but we have seen a common theme among ALL the fires. 

I am fully aware of evidence and fact. 



> The firemen said that was probably them, "fire bugs love to check on their handywork"


This is not FACT. This is total speculation on the part of the Fireman and Gadget. Fire bugs have a HISTORY of returning which is a FACT. Not that they all do but it is an observable FACT. WHICH is also EVIDENCE. All the fires have a HISTORY too. All have an observable theme. Pulled from HISTORY. Each one adds to that history strengthening the FACT that the theme is the same. In every case it has been the same. 

I guess history of evidence and observable facts means nothing.


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## EVfun (Mar 14, 2010)

Polypropylene has a heat of combustion similar to gasoline and melts at only 330F. It self ignites at just 750F so pretty much any hydrocarbon based flame will do it. Boiling out the electrolyte will create a locally flammable environment that would easily lead to ignition. Think about it, a BMS is never the fuel in a fire, phenolic resin, glass fibers, and copper traces don't support combustion. 

The fact is that the building burned and you don't seem to have any evidence that the roof didn't burn, leaving you in no position to call Gadget a liar.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Pete,
Since you were not on scene you have neither facts nor evidence, you have speculation. Just as the anti EV crowd speculated that the Chevy Volt that was involved in a garage fire must have caused the fire and it must have started in the battery pack, when the investigation showed that not to be the case.


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## Guest (Oct 6, 2011)

We saw the video. You did not. The Volt did not burn like the others either.


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## EVfun (Mar 14, 2010)

gottdi said:


> We saw the video. You did not. The Volt did not burn like the others either.


Gadget saw the effects first hand. You did not. Are you calling him a liar? One of you is wrong -- I will go with the account of an eye witness.


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## Guest (Oct 6, 2011)

There is clear history. Does it mean its 100%? No nor does saying all the fires had some other reason for the fires but all of the final results were pointed elsewhere which is total BS. The history clearly shows that these fires all have the same theme. The Volt did not follow the same pattern. When a pattern arises then there is something very powerful there. Not something to disregard. You guys want to disregard this. Why?


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## Guest (Oct 6, 2011)

Just because you are there does not mean you know the truth. I am going on HISTORY with common components that are present in each case.


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## Guest (Oct 6, 2011)

EVfun said:


> Gadget saw the effects first hand. You did not. Are you calling him a liar? One of you is wrong -- I will go with the account of an eye witness.


Actually all of us can be wrong.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

A pattern is just that, a pattern. Not everything fits within the pattern. Why are you willing to discount the only on site witness we have?


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Do you even know if the car was charging?


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## Guest (Oct 6, 2011)

Oh my. You have plenty to learn. I am not discounting what was said. I said what is seen and the history and pattern says other than what was said. That is why. Why do you discount HISTORY and PATTERNS. There have been plenty of fires to build a pattern of common events within each case. The patterns point. Learn from them. Do not discount them. Take the person out of the equation. He had to get out fast. He has no clue any more than us. He would know if the car was charging. Did he say? No but the pattern says it was charging. Fact? NO but strong likely hood that it was on the charger according to the pattern. 

If that car burned completely but the others did not says that the others in the same fire did not have the heat required to ignite the plastic. Why? Pattern says a very high heat source was present at or directly upon the plastic so it would be hot enough to ignite. Very very strong evidence according to the pattern. Learn from the pattern. Patterns always play a part. Always.


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## Guest (Oct 6, 2011)

I had a 65 VW Squareback years ago in which I had installed a new rebuilt engine. Took it out for a test drive and on the way home heard a small pop in the engine. The engine kept running fine with no noticeable evidence of any thing wrong. About 1 mile from home but still on the freeway I smelled smoke. I pulled over fast and got out and ran to the back and opened the engine cover. It was fully in flames. FULLY. I slammed the lid and began pulling things out of the car until I could no longer see. At that point the fire was coming into the car and out I went. There was a car that had pulled off with me and they said that they had followed me for a few miles and said that flames were pouring out the bottom of the car. Within 10 minutes the car was totally gone from the front windshield back. All combustable material was gone. What was interesting was the engine case was still burning. What had happened was the magnesium in the block caught fire. I have seen many many VW fires in my day due to fuel lines coming off and causing a fuel fire which would burn the engine compartment mostly but on occasion the insides would burn too. But not usual. The magnesium needs a very very very hot ignition point to start combustion and once started it will burn itself out. It took 2 1/2 hours before that happened. Fire Department was there the whole time spraying water to keep the heat contained within a smaller area. Not to try to snuff it out. A normal fuel fire can not ignite magnesium in an engine block. So where did the ignition source come from. History of fuel caused fires rule out a fuel fire in most all cases. But within a running engine there is enough heat to ignite magnesium. I concluded that my engine had sucked a valve and the heat from the exhaust was the cause. It's hard to be absolutely sure but a good likely hood that is where the problem came from. An imbalanced carburetor with dual carbs could have been the initial cause that cascaded to overheating a cylinder and causing a malfunction with enough heat to ignite the magnesium. There were steel parts that were just gone from that fire. Not enough left of the engine to fully determine the cause so we had to rely upon fire history of VW's. Sure there was a fuel fire because the fuel lined did catch fire but history shows that fuel usually won't cause mag to burn from a big block. Conclusion had to be made from past history and patterns of fires in VW's. Enough evidence over the years is enough to make an educated conclusion that is not willy nilly made. 

History and patterns are very important.


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## Guest (Oct 6, 2011)

JRP3 said:


> Do you even know if the car was charging?


The pattern points to YES.


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## EVfun (Mar 14, 2010)

Off on a tangent a bit but... How exactly is does a BMS start a fire. I mean, the circuit board itself doesn't support a fire. Spaghetti wiring without fuses would be a possibility. The shunt resistors getting hot would be a possibility but only a few BMS system shunt any significant current. Perhaps you are aware of another failure that actually can ignite something? I would like to know the ignition source that leads to the first flame. Perhaps a dumb charger causes the fire, at least it is a source of sufficient power to cause ignition. 

I've run with a BMS and no trouble. Now I run without a BMS and no trouble.


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## Guest (Oct 6, 2011)

The BMS is only one common point. Have you ever seen a fire cause by a shorted wire? I have. It is fast and very hot. Enough to begin the process. A short may not even cause the fire directly. It could cause the BMS to fail to where the DUMB charger keeps charging at full until the cells just bust. With an entire pack the heat would be significant. Being that a BMS is present in all cases is a point to consider as a possible starting point. With all the wires there is a very large possibility that there will be a failure point somewhere. Maybe a crappy circuit board too. It just introduces so many failure points. In DIY situations the possibility is even greater than in an OEM case. I am only pointing out and pointing to the patterns that are present. Do not discount patterns of events or components. 

Time to sleep.


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## GizmoEV (Nov 28, 2009)

For the record, here is what was posted on the EVTV blog.



> by RevGadget
> 
> The car that was burnt to the ground was the speedster. It had a 100 cell lithium polymer battery pack. The car looked fairly burned out, but that is because it was fiberglass. Once you lifted up the glass mat to see the cells below, the plastic was still white, so they were not the source of fire. The fire was started on the roof of the building. I was asleep inside the building when the fire started. There was black smoke inside the building sitting about 7 feet off the ground. The air below was fairly clear, and the room was dark. There was no light from a fire and the air was still. Within minutes the fire came through the roof. It come through directly above a car sitting on a lift. The hot tar poured onto that car and incinerated it. Then the acetylene tanks went next. The roof had three layers of hot mop on it. The liquid pouring through the hole in the roof fueled and inferno that melted the steel beams above. As we stood there at the end of the day watching the firemen mop up, a car passed by and some young men waved, My wife asked who they were. My heart sank... They were the guys who I busted attempting to graffiti my building a few weeks earlier. The firemen said that was probably them, "fire bugs love to check on their handywork"
> 
> Gadget


If the battery cases weren't burned how could they be the source of the fire?


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## Guest (Oct 6, 2011)

> I've run with a BMS and no trouble. Now I run without a BMS and no trouble.


Yes. But without the likely hood of incidence is far less. So far no fires on vehicles with no BMS systems installed and functioning. That is the safer way to go. We are not saying don't use (ok I do) but be very aware of the history of fires as they all have BMS's as one of the common factors. It says volumes. 

Time to sleep now.


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## Guest (Oct 6, 2011)

GizmoEV said:


> For the record, here is what was posted on the EVTV blog.
> 
> If the battery cases weren't burned how could they be the source of the fire?


I was the first to post it here. I also posted another statement from him that says different. Have a look. 

Night.


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## GizmoEV (Nov 28, 2009)

gottdi said:


> I was the first to post it here. I also posted another statement from him that says different. Have a look.


I did and it looks like JRP3 posted it. Maybe I missed what you are talking about. The forum regularly does not take me to the last post I read so maybe it was farther back in the thread.

I have to say, you sure are quite insistent on your hypothesis but the evidence doesn't prove you are right. It doesn't prove you are wrong either.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

gottdi said:


> I was the first to post it here. I also posted another statement from him that says different. Have a look.
> 
> Night.


Actually I was the one who posted his version from Jack's blog here, you posted another version, which pretty much matched the version I posted, except in one he said smoke 5 ft off the ground and in the other he said about 7 ft off the ground. Wow, what a contradiction.  The one I posted simply had more detailed information.


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## Guest (Oct 6, 2011)

There is a pretty powerful incentive to keep the truth from getting out about any of the fires. Do you know what it is? I do.


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## Guest (Oct 6, 2011)

> In October of 2008, there was a fire in the shop, apparently an arson,....


Apparently from a single point of reference it could be construed considering the seed was planted to blame it on arson. But from a perspective of many fires with common elements, it is not so apparent.


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## Guest (Oct 6, 2011)

> "Everything had burned," he said. "I thought everything was lost. And
> then as I started prying the cars open, I see lit LED's and I went,
> 'Oh wow.' I never had that mindset that somebody was going to stop
> me."


The good batteries found were from the other cars in the shop. Not the car in question. 

That's all. There is no more here.


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## dladd (Jun 1, 2011)

Funny that you Gottdi, the very guy who continually complains about how the misinformation and BS around here is driving away folks, is the one spreading malicious rumors without facts to back it up.


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## Guest (Oct 6, 2011)

No where near malicious rumors. What is stated is in fact the truth. The fires all have common elements that can't be refuted. See it the way you want like, like everyone else. Turn the blind eye so to speak. So I guess saying nothing is better. Agreeing is better too I presume. Burying your head in the sand is a sad thing indeed. Look at all the fires and compare the elements. Key points are (middle of the night)(Total destruction of car in question)(far less damage on all other vehicle in the area)(all have bms systems). Which points to being on the charger at the time of the fire. They are common factors and irrefutable.


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## Guest (Oct 6, 2011)

What rumors?


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## Guest (Oct 6, 2011)

Guess you guys are just not done with this yet. It will come up again. How many times has this happened now? How many times has every one stuck their heads in the sand?


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## palmer_md (Jul 22, 2011)

You all need to break this thread into two because we now have half the posts having nothing to do with racing. Let get back to racing!


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## Guest (Oct 6, 2011)

palmer_md said:


> You all need to break this thread into two because we now have half the posts having nothing to do with racing. Let get back to racing!


I actually tried a bit back. Said


> This is way off topic.


 and it just kept going. 

Racing is much more fun of a topic. But you will find arguments there too. My plan is a full drag buggy with pouch cells and 190 volts and a controller that will pump out 850 amps. Kostov 11" or Warp9 and being light weight should have an advantage on the strip. Never raced so it is a new thing to learn. ProStreet with 3.44:1 Ring and pinion too. Plan is to start out in 2nd then quick shift the rest. Finding the right sweet spot will be a trick for shifting. 

Pete 

Buggy project is in motion as is the Bus Project.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

gottdi said:


> No where near malicious rumors.


You are flat out claiming that Gadget is lying, that's a malicious rumor. No one is saying that many of the other fires weren't caused by the BMS, all we are saying is there is no solid evidence that points to the BMS as the cause in this case. Just because Jack thinks that's the cause doesn't make it true, not even a little bit.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

gottdi said:


> I actually tried a bit back. Said and it just kept going.


Sorry, you dont' get to make unsubstantiated off topic accusations and then say we should stay on topic.


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## JRoque (Mar 9, 2010)

Hey Pete, motor max voltage is what, 170V or so? Why not go higher pack voltage - and lower Ah if necessary to reduce weight and cost? That way you can deliver full power to the motor without volt sag. I assume you're building a purpose drag racer and range is not a design target.

Will that work or will the motor saturate before then?

JR


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## Guest (Oct 6, 2011)

JRP3 said:


> Sorry, you dont' get to make unsubstantiated off topic accusations and then say we should stay on topic.





> Gadget stopped in at Jacks blog and explained that his fire was not BMS/battery related at all and was clearly arson.
> Assuming every EV fire is BMS related is as wrong as assuming all BMS's are perfectly safe.


Hells bells, you started the thread about the fire anyway then Ron then all hell broke loose. We saw what we saw and it mirrors the others so the claim is not unsubstantiated at all, regardless of what was SAID. 

I guess you have not been keeping up with the fires issues that have come up during the last few years.


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## Guest (Oct 6, 2011)

JRoque said:


> Hey Pete, motor max voltage is what, 170V or so? Why not go higher pack voltage - and lower Ah if necessary to reduce weight and cost? That way you can deliver full power to the motor without volt sag. I assume you're building a purpose drag racer and range is not a design target.
> 
> Will that work or will the motor saturate before then?
> 
> JR


I can run a high voltage and limit the amps but I can't go over the max voltage of my controller. If I had a Soliton1 and ran a 300 some odd voltage pack and limited my voltage to lower then yes. I am going to run just below the max of my controller and I will not have a pack larger than like 24AH. It will be small and light and out of the way and low, built into the chassis. I can keep the weight way down. For now I am not building it for record breaking speeds. Gotta learn and practice first. Mostly for fun but if we like it we will continue and make things faster. It is an evolutionary process. 

Pete


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

gottdi said:


> Hells bells, you started the thread about the fire anyway then Ron then all hell broke loose.


Actually imwoody mentioned the differences of opinions on BMS related fires and then I posted Gadgets post. Then you started calling him a liar.


> I guess you have not been keeping up with the fires issues that have come up during the last few years.


You must be joking. I'm well aware and have been involved in many of the discussions. Some of the vehicles tossed into the "it must have been the BMS" pile turned out not to have them or they were not the cause, that's why I reserve judgement until I see some proof one way or the other, especially before I say someone is lying on a public forum.


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## Guest (Oct 6, 2011)

> Some of the vehicles tossed into the "it must have been the BMS" pile turned out not to have them or they were not the cause, that's why I reserve judgement....


Reserve away. Never said it was the BMS. Never said it was not. Never said anyone was a liar either. Said what we saw was not consistent with what he said. Not a liar. He does not even know so how can I be calling him a liar. 

They have concluded with NO SOLID FACTS that it MUST BE ARSON. 

So what is different from our observations, knowledge and conclusions?


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

gottdi said:


> Reserve away. Never said it was the BMS.


What are you talking about? You've been ranting over and over that history tells us it must be the BMS.


> Never said anyone was a liar either.


 He said the cells were not burned and that it was not the BMS. You said it must have been the BMS, that means you are calling him a liar.


> Said what we saw was not consistent with what he said. Not a liar. He does not even know so how can I be calling him a liar.
> 
> They have concluded with NO SOLID FACTS that it MUST BE ARSON.


 You don't know what facts they have since you were not on scene and not part of the investigation. 

By the way, according to one of your fellow EVCCON goers, Chris Paine confirmed what Gadget said and that it was not the BMS that caused the fire.


> Anne Kloppenborg said... I can confirm that Gadgets' write-up above is exactly what Chris Paine told me at the bar, after our screening of the movie. It was a relief for me then and now that it was not a BMS/battery fire, though the real world implication for Gadget are potentially worse...until the terminators come along, i'd rather have technological enemies than living ones.


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

If you guys wish, I can start a sticky thread where all flame throwers are welcome to nit pick every last detail about BMS, who said what, and what happened way back when.....

I realize this is an issue that comes up once in a while but 

1) I'm getting complaints about the off topic, and
2) I'm also a bit short on patience due to an exam tomorrow morning so please just drop it and let the topic get back on track.

I don't care who started it, just please end it.


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## Guest (Oct 7, 2011)

To the folks that complain, go to the source first before crying to daddy. I have no trouble stopping if it REALLY is a bother to you.


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## Guest (Oct 7, 2011)

Done deal.


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## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

Guys,

Let's keep this thread about EVCCON. You guys are not good at being "bad guys" leave the pissing matches up to me, I have no problem taking the hits. LOL. 

It's funny how anyone on this forum or the other forums that did not attend EVCCON has some kind of "beef" with participants. 2012 is going to be an awaking for some EV racers, that I can guarantee. EVCCON has joined some very good people in friendship, I am soooo glad I attended.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Who has any beef with EVCCON participants? I'm just trying to get some facts straight. And thanks for the concern but I have no problem mixing it up when appropriate, neither does Pete. We've been doing it for years.


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## Guest (Oct 8, 2011)

I'll let you take that role but I will still speak out. I also agree that an awakening is happening. Things have change quite a bit already on this end. EVCCON 2012 will be ground shaking. Stay tuned 

Thanks Ron for taking the hits. Your much younger so I will let you take a beating for awhile. Can't wait till next year. 

Still have video to process too. Might even get another run on youtube tonight. 

Pete 

JRP3, 
Thanks for being open and willing to shake things up too.


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## Guest (Oct 8, 2011)

Your correct Ron, I am pretty bad at being a Bad Guy. Never was quite the BAD DUDE. 

Pete


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## GizmoEV (Nov 28, 2009)

LithiumaniacsEVRacing said:


> Guys,
> 
> Let's keep this thread about EVCCON. You guys are not good at being "bad guys" leave the pissing matches up to me, I have no problem taking the hits. LOL.


Why do we have to be "bad guys" just to get something figured out? That is just a plain waste of time and just undermines credibility and makes it more difficult to sort out the accurate from the inaccurate.



> It's funny how anyone on this forum or the other forums that did not attend EVCCON has some kind of "beef" with participants.


Who said it was a beef with the participants? I would stile likely have had the same questions if I had attended. We'll see after I get to watch the movie. The reality is that just because a car with a BMS burned does not automatically mean that the BMS caused it nor does it mean that it didn't. I teach in a Juvenile Detention Center and believe me, there are kids who would have done exactly what Gadget and the firemen thought. It wouldn't matter if they knew what went on inside the building or who owned it.



> 2012 is going to be an awaking for some EV racers, that I can guarantee. EVCCON has joined some very good people in friendship, I am soooo glad I attended.


That is awesome to hear. I look forward to your results speaking for them selves and none of this name calling stuff. Talk is cheap, results aren't.

Thanks for taking all the risks and learning from the failures. If more people would go out an fail faster they would be farther ahead of where they are now. Failing is the fastest way to learn.


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## Guest (Oct 8, 2011)

Had a thought about a possible issue that should be looked at. Electromagnetic interference. I know some folks, including me have had troubles with it causing faults and shutdowns. After shielding or filtering the issues went away. I am not sure how well if at all the BMS systems are built to handle noise issues but because it has not been talked about directly for the BMS side of things maybe it should be. My thought was if any stray interference happened near the circuit it could cause a loss of communication with the charger or other components and if there is no provision for re establishing communication then a charger could be running rogue with no knowledge because the components are working but not communicating. So if that is the case it is not a BMS issue directly at all. But a common interference issue which is showing its troublesome nature the more we put things on the car. So a real simple system may not have any EMI issues with any other components so no one would figure that there could be an issue with the BMS. The more that is installed the more chances of failure arise. 

Pete 

There will be more than a racers awakening at the next EVent next year. Stay Tuned.


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## Guest (Oct 8, 2011)

It only takes a microsecond to loose communication. Components remain functioning. This should be taken to a new thread.


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## Beemer (Jun 2, 2011)

I'm glad EVCCON went so well with no on-video (or midnight) disasters. This is what the world needs to see. Not these threads becoming ugly.. I'm not a bms guy ...because of the litany of design horrors they exhibit but please... If there is a camera crew expect something to automagically happen. Even if its not in the remit of the producer, the devil is sitting in the shadows and comes out at night... That said, there was a collective gasp from the audience as Gadget pulled out the remains of a bms from the centre of ground zero.
||==========(Done. Off topic Drawn a line under this subject)==========||​
Personally I hope Jack will split the money down into a few classifications:

Road legal,
Track legal,
More than 2+2 seats four wheelers,
Trikes,
Bikes.
It's not about the money is it? We need fun and World wide recognition. A free beer would do me.

*They never did have a soap box car race series. Darn! *

I was fascinated by the manner some cars moved. For instance, Fred's little frog-eye Sprite was quick off the mark but the Illuminati Seven kept on accelerating; being heavier and aerodynamically slippery.

Seb's car had a couple of starts. Pete's video showing the run driven by Mick Fisher(?) was softer than the other run with the tyres/clutch spraying hydrocarbons everywhere. It's doing things like this we learn from past errors though.
Some car(s) like the Tesla have no gearbox and do very well. Gearboxes and clutches are great for laying extra torque down at slower speeds when required. They seem seldom suited for racing ev's due to breakages. If anyone is sourcing a car and requires a clutch/gearbox, I suggest looking for a big diesel car because the motors power delivery seems to be more similar.


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