# [EVDL] Negative NPR Story



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

I heard it also. It was pretty sad. They came into it not liking it. Why
can't they come to grips with the fact that if your daily commute is less
that the per charge distance that your EV will then be your PRIMARY vehicle?

Mark Grasser
Balyntec Products
>From my shop PC


-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf
Of WILLIAM DENNIS Owner
Sent: Monday, November 21, 2011 1:36 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: [EVDL] Negative NPR Story

I heard a story on NPR this morning that was pretty negative on EVs:
http://www.npr.org/2011/11/21/142464818/can-electric-cars-help-automakers-re
ach-55-mpg

Here are some excerpts:
1) Regarding the Leaf: "What Brockman doesn't say is you're only going to
reach the 100-mile range on cool spring days doing about 40 mph, with the
air conditioning off and the car going downhill."

2) "Once people actually find out about the cars, they like them even
less."

3) "The problem is, the chances of there being a 500-mile range electric
car, at this point, it seems pretty unlikely. You can go to the Henry Ford
Museum in Dearborn, Mich., and see electric cars. To me, that's not great
progress."

Bill 

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

My response to NPR....

Rarely do I hear a story on NPR that displays such clearly (and inaccurately) preconceived notions. One would think that a Detroit-based automotive reporter might have actually driven the subject vehicle before parroting such buzzkills as 'range anxiety" and "Once people actually find out about the cars, they like them even less.". At least the electric cars constantly display a reasonably accurate estimate of remaining range, rather than offering no more guidance than a needle pointing in the general vicinity of "E".
Yes, EV drivers must take a moment to plan out their day's journey. If they fail to plan accordingly, the worst case is that just about any building in the country can provide fuel at a minimum rate of 7 miles per hour. (1800 watts from a 15 amp, 120V circuit will put enough charge to cover 7 miles at 250 watt-hours per mile into an average electric car, for each hour of charging). Yes, I have failed to make it home twice in my experimental, homebuilt electric car that lacks the advanced instrumentation of modern EVs. Both times I made a new friend while borrowing a few American-made electrons from their wall for less than 30 minutes. This is more pleasant a situation than any traffic jam I've ever been in, and the smooth, silent electric torque that lets my tree-hugging antique econobox leap away from stoplights makes it all worthwhile.

Jay Donnaway
www.karmanneclectric.blogspot.com

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

If you "plan" your commute by plugging in, I don't see a problem.

sean



> Jay Donnaway <[email protected]> wrote:
> >
> > My response to NPR....
> >
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> WILLIAM DENNIS Owner <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> > 3) "The problem is, the chances of there being a 500-mile range electr=
> ic car, at this point, it seems pretty unlikely. You can go to the Henry Fo=
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

And, you could have said about computers in 1975, "You can go to the museum
and see the ENIAC; microcomputers are just a toy and chances of there being
a 1 megaflop micro seems pretty unlikely".

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf
Of Zeke Yewdall
Sent: 22 November, 2011 6:13 AM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Negative NPR Story



> WILLIAM DENNIS Owner <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> > 3) "The problem is, the chances of there being a 500-mile range electr=
> ic
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

People will not change their driving habits to be able to get the full
benefit of EVs the ev will have to be built for the average joe or the ev
will die again. The only way to change average joe is to FORCE him... ie
dropping the national speed limit to 55 and states were forced to do that
by threat of being cut off from highway funds.
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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Michael Clark wrote
> 
> The only way to change average joe is to FORCE him... ie
> dropping the national speed limit to 55 

I agree, and that improves safety too. But even forcing 55 wouldn't be
nearly as good as a gasoline tax. The federal tax on gasoline is only 18.4
cents (in Germany, for example, the tax is over $2/gallon). And it's been
this low for almost 20 years. Accounting for inflation it's actually going
down each year! See this site for some details:

http://www.infrastructurist.com/2010/01/21/how-often-is-the-gas-tax-raised-most-americans-have-no-clue/

This site makes a good point, that people "... believe the federal gas tax
is raised annually". So, if we did create a gradual yearly tax on gasoline,
reality would simply match most people's perception. And, of course, we'd
get an economic incentive to boost EVs, public transportation, other
efficienct transportation and lower speeds.



-----
Dan Gallagher
http://www.evalbum.com/3854

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

You are right Michael. There are some people that will continue to pay $5,
$10... $20 per gallon of gasoline to make their 20 to 50 mile daily
commutes. But I think many people are reasonable in the use of their
money. Meaning that when the costs associated with buying gasoline becomes
too high, then the behavior will change easily.

I think it would be a good exercise in peoples honesty with themselves to
determine what gas would have to cost for them to switch to an electric
car. Its not out of line to think that people would consider moving closer
to work so they could take advantage of electric vehicles with limited
range. In fact people do just that even to save money and continue driving
their gas car. Why is it unreasonable to think people don't like saving
money. I think many of these reporters that poo-poo electrics would drive
one too when gas prices start eating away their measly paycheck for writing
bogus stories.

Mike

On Tue, Nov 22, 2011 at 12:02 PM, Michael Clark


> <[email protected]>wrote:
> 
> > People will not change their driving habits to be able to get the full
> > benefit of EVs the ev will have to be built for the average joe or the ev
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

When gas went to $4/gal a few years ago the first time here, there were a lot of parked SUVs and people driving the old econobox parked out back that they had "upgraded" to the bigger station wagon when the economy was good. But... Now, the shock of $4/gal has worn off and they're back to the SUV. But I bet when it goes above 5, or 6, we'll see a surge of EV buyers, and some may never go back once they see how convenient the EV can be for certain types of trips.

Sent from my iPhone



> Cal Frye <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> > On 11/22/11 4:02 PM, Michael Clark wrote:
> >> People will not change their driving habits to be able to get the full
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> On 22 Nov 2011 at 17:14, zeke Yewdall wrote:
> 
> > But I bet when [the liquid fuel price] goes above 5 or 6 [dollars per
> > gallon], we'll see a surge of EV buyers
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Michael Clark <[email protected]>wrote:
> 
> > <snip> The only way to change average joe is to FORCE him... ie
> 
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Hah, thats about right. What the masses need to convince them are
commercial TV ads. Because in reality they just need someone to make the
decision for them and for their friends to think its OK they buy an EV. TV
commercials may be the re-birth of the EV, again ;-)

I mean I thought the EV-1 commercials were way cool. I would have bought
one before I decided to build one. Unfortunately I never saw any of those
commercials on the air. Too bad many more didn't see them back in the mid
90's.

*"Tongue firmly implanted in check ;-)"*

Mike




> Chris Tromley <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> > On Tue, Nov 22, 2011 at 4:02 PM, Michael Clark <[email protected]
> > >wrote:
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Good point... it's not so much the price, as the hassle. Right now,
people perceive filling up an EV as a greater hassle than an ICE (not
sure... because like many people have pointed out, most people have
electricity at their houses, but not a gas station at their house),
but if that changes, the price is probably somewhat moot.



> EVDL Administrator <[email protected]> wrote:
> > On 22 Nov 2011 at 17:14, zeke Yewdall wrote:
> >
> >> But I bet when [the liquid fuel price] goes above 5 or 6 [dollars per
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

I am sure cost of batteries stands in the way for some, and the range issue
is always with us. But I think the real barrier is that when you put in
enough batteries to achieve your desired range you begin an inexorable
decline to a point that is too soon to change batteries but you are not able
to meet your range anymore. That is a bummer. I am bound and determined to
buy an electric vehicle but the battery question is driving me crazy. Lead,
gel, lithium, amp hours, watts per mile, discharge limits, charge limits,
heat, cold weather performance, lifecycle cost.... it just all gets a bit
much. And every car for sale seems to be for sale because the batteries
were neglected or time has passed and the car comes needing batteries, which
is good in that it lets me choose my poison, but it says a lot about the
state of the EV world. Here is the start of an EV ad: "Hey this is a good
deal. You'll pay less than the cost of the components. But this car has
been sitting around ever since the range dropped below my commute and my new
wife says it has to go..." And this is from people who love EV. Is it no
wonder that the rest of the world can't penetrate the fog?

So it is not just the cost of batteries or the trouble to recharge them or
even the range per se, it is rather the range dropoff. That is the killer
at least in my mind.

Any thoughts on this are welcome. Maybe lithium is a good solution. That
is my leaning. But...

Larry

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

On Wed, Nov 23, 2011 at 2:21 PM, Larry Fisher


> <[email protected]> wrote:
> >
> > So it is not just the cost of batteries or the trouble to recharge them or
> > even the range per se, it is rather the range dropoff. That is the kil=
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Another good reason not to listen to NPR! It's a waste of one's time, as far 
as I am concerned.

Joseph H. Strubhar

Web: www.gremcoinc.com

E-mail: [email protected]




----- Original Message ----- 
From: "WILLIAM DENNIS Owner" <[email protected]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, November 21, 2011 10:36 AM
Subject: [EVDL] Negative NPR Story


>I heard a story on NPR this morning that was pretty negative on EVs: 
>http://www.npr.org/2011/11/21/142464818/can-electric-cars-help-automakers-reach-55-mpg
>
> Here are some excerpts:
> 1) Regarding the Leaf: "What Brockman doesn't say is you're only going to 
> reach the 100-mile range on cool spring days doing about 40 mph, with the 
> air conditioning off and the car going downhill."
>
> 2) "Once people actually find out about the cars, they like them even 
> less."
>
> 3) "The problem is, the chances of there being a 500-mile range electric 
> car, at this point, it seems pretty unlikely. You can go to the Henry Ford 
> Museum in Dearborn, Mich., and see electric cars. To me, that's not great 
> progress."
>
> Bill
>
> _______________________________________________
> | Moratorium on drag racing discussion is in effect.
> | Please take those discussions elsewhere. Thanks.
> |
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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> David Nelson wrote:
> 
> > On Wed, Nov 23, 2011 at 2:21 PM, Larry Fisher
> > <[email protected]> wrote:
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Lets face it ... NOTHING can help the auto makers reach 55mpg aside from
hell and high water ... which as luck would have it, are probably on their
way :/

Anything that threatens normalcy will be ignored. Carry on !
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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Dave Hymers <[email protected]> wrote:
> > Lets face it ... NOTHING can help the auto makers reach 55mpg aside from
> > hell and high water ... which as luck would have it, are probably on their
> > way :/
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

I don't think so. Battery technology is constantly improving, a 100 mile
pack that gets 2000 cycles is 200,000 miles of range, quite within the
capacity of today's cells, let alone tomorrow's. Make it a 200 mile pack
and you're at 400,000 miles, and the pack is not even dead at this point. 
Leasing always costs more in the long run because it provides profit to
those providing it, no reason to give those profits to the OEM's.
I'm quite disappointed that Honda will probably only be leasing their new EV
with Scib batteries which should last 5,000 cycles. I want to own my EV,
and my batteries.

Ed Blackmond wrote
> 
> 
> 
> This is why battery packs for OEM produced vehicles will eventually be 
> leased. People will purchase an electric vehicle and lease a battery 
> pack. The leased pack will have a guaranteed capacity of X KWHr and 
> the lease rate will be some function f(X). When that pack can no 
> longer hold X KWHr, the lessee will turn it back in and receive 
> another pack with a guaranteed capacity of X KWHr. The leasing 
> company will then lease the pack with a guaranteed capacity of Y KWHr 
> (where Y is some fraction of X) for some lease rate f(Y) (where f(Y) 
> is probably less than f(X)).
> 
> 


--
View this message in context: http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/EVangelism-tp4092072p4104152.html
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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Many of the diesel compacts sold in Europe are already above this....
Even the large ones sold in the US (the jetta is volkswagen's second
smallest car, not the smallest one, in europe) are getting close to
55mpg.

Z

On Thu, Nov 24, 2011 at 6:49 AM, Nathan Loofbourrow <[email protected]> wrot=
e:
>


> Dave Hymers <[email protected]> wrote:
> >> Lets face it ... NOTHING can help the auto makers reach 55mpg aside from
> >> hell and high water ... which as luck would have it, are probably on the=
> ir
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

The lifetime average on my 2000 Honda Insight is over 56mpg. When I bought
it with 86k miles it was at 49mpg. Lighter weight, better aerodynamics, and
more efficient drive trains make a difference. Of course an electric drive
is a quick way to improve efficiency. It will be interesting to see how
John Wayland's Insight EV turns out.



> Zeke Yewdall <[email protected]> wrote:
> > Many of the diesel compacts sold in Europe are already above this....
> > Even the large ones sold in the US (the jetta is volkswagen's second
> > smallest car, not the smallest one, in europe) are getting close to
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> David Nelson wrote:
> > The lifetime average on my 2000 Honda Insight is over 56mpg. When I bought
> > it with 86k miles it was at 49mpg. Lighter weight, better aerodynamics, and
> > more efficient drive trains make a difference. Of course an electric drive
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Nathan Loofbourrow wrote:
> 
> > On Thu, Nov 24, 2011 at 5:24 AM, Dave Hymers <[email protected]>
> > wrote:
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

On Fri, Nov 25, 2011 at 09:03:57AM +0000, Martin WINLOW wrote:

> You (nearly) all drive round in totally ridiculously enormous 
> vehicles. Why on Earth do you think your MPG is so high? Get real, 
> stop whinging and start buying sensible cars like the rest of the 
> planet and you won't even have to *try* to reach 40 or even 55 MPG. 
> (Flame shields... up!)

No flame shield necessary, Martin. Your are exactly right. With the 
slight stipulation that efficient cars are generally not offered here 
in the US. Of course they would be offered if we demanded them.

-- 
Willie, ONWARD! Through the fog!
http://counter.li.org Linux registered user #228836 since 1995
Debian3.1/GNU/Linux system uptime 9 days 17 hours 05 minutes

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

I agree Martin. I had to laugh when we set goals to achieve mpg years from
now that are about what Europe and Japan currently achieve.

--
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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

I see lots of talk lately in this thread about how wasteful the large ICE 
vehicles we Americans drive are. I have a few thoughts on this.

First, it's off topic. ;-)

Second, experience shows that it's flame bait. :-(

Finally, and most importantly, we (not I, but you know what I mean) buy big 
vehicles because the automakers advertised them aggressively and continue to 
do so. They advertise them because they want to sell them. They want to 
sell them because they make far more profit on big vehicles than on small 
ones. 

There's a whole list of reasons that this last is true, from labor costs to 
customer value perception, and anybody with a particular agenda can probably 
find some way to blame his favorite bogeyman. But no matter whom or what 
you blame, the fundamental problem stubbornly stays the same and thus 
nothing changes.

One way around this is to level the playing field with an external control - 
taxation, on purchase and/or use of vehicles, linked to their computed cost 
to society. That's the way it's done (to a greater or lesser extent) in 
various European and Asian nations. 

I don't need (and don't want) to bring in politics for anybody to recognize 
that the legislative climate in the US doesn't favor that. It's just not 
going to happen here any time soon, if ever.

This is where EVs come in. 

Look at the staggering complexity of the modern ICEV. An ICE has hundreds 
of moving parts, all of which have to be manufactured and assembled 
somewhere by somebody. A multispeed transmission is also inherently complex 
(I've read that there are over 100 moving parts in an automatic gearbox). 

Now add a microprocessor and large numbers of sensors and mechanical 
controls in the fuel system to clean up the exhaust. The >scrap value< of a 
catalytic converter is typically over $100, which gives you an idea of how 
much its materials are worth. 

That a modern ICEV can have something in the range of 14,000 moving parts 
and still sell for less than $30,000 is something of a miracle of modern 
mass production. 

Well, an EV has none of that greasy ICE stuff. 

The motor has 3 moving parts, the armature and the bearings (OK, maybe 7 if 
it's a brushed motor). The biggest labor cost in a motor is winding it, and 
that's done by robots these days. The largest materials cost might be the 
copper, or possibly the rare earth magnets, if such are used.

Thanks to a motor's far better torque curve, the transmission can be dead 
simple - just a single speed gear reduction.

Most of the EV's complexity is in the silicon of the controller, charger, 
and BMS. Except for high power stages, these are subject to enormous 
reductions in cost under mass production. In theory, at least, everything 
in an EV should require less raw material and less labor to assemble. 

Once the development costs are amortized, EVs have the potential to 
signifcantly reduce the manufacturing costs of a vehicle for automakers. 
They might be the change that some of us think we need in the small vs large 
vehicle profitability dynamics - with no taxation or legislation needed.

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
EVDL Information: http://www.evdl.org/help/
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = 
Note: mail sent to "evpost" and "etpost" addresses will not 
reach me. To send a private message, please obtain my 
email address from the webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ .
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Well said.
/roger

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf
Of EVDL Administrator
Sent: Friday, November 25, 2011 9:30 AM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Negative NPR Story

I see lots of talk lately in this thread about how wasteful the large ICE
vehicles we Americans drive are. I have a few thoughts on this.

First, it's off topic. ;-)

Second, experience shows that it's flame bait. :-(

Finally, and most importantly, we (not I, but you know what I mean) buy big
vehicles because the automakers advertised them aggressively and continue to
do so. They advertise them because they want to sell them. They want to
sell them because they make far more profit on big vehicles than on small
ones. 

There's a whole list of reasons that this last is true, from labor costs to
customer value perception, and anybody with a particular agenda can probably
find some way to blame his favorite bogeyman. But no matter whom or what
you blame, the fundamental problem stubbornly stays the same and thus
nothing changes.

One way around this is to level the playing field with an external control -
taxation, on purchase and/or use of vehicles, linked to their computed cost
to society. That's the way it's done (to a greater or lesser extent) in
various European and Asian nations. 

I don't need (and don't want) to bring in politics for anybody to recognize
that the legislative climate in the US doesn't favor that. It's just not
going to happen here any time soon, if ever.

This is where EVs come in. 

Look at the staggering complexity of the modern ICEV. An ICE has hundreds
of moving parts, all of which have to be manufactured and assembled
somewhere by somebody. A multispeed transmission is also inherently complex
(I've read that there are over 100 moving parts in an automatic gearbox). 

Now add a microprocessor and large numbers of sensors and mechanical
controls in the fuel system to clean up the exhaust. The >scrap value< of a
catalytic converter is typically over $100, which gives you an idea of how
much its materials are worth. 

That a modern ICEV can have something in the range of 14,000 moving parts
and still sell for less than $30,000 is something of a miracle of modern
mass production. 

Well, an EV has none of that greasy ICE stuff. 

The motor has 3 moving parts, the armature and the bearings (OK, maybe 7 if
it's a brushed motor). The biggest labor cost in a motor is winding it, and
that's done by robots these days. The largest materials cost might be the
copper, or possibly the rare earth magnets, if such are used.

Thanks to a motor's far better torque curve, the transmission can be dead
simple - just a single speed gear reduction.

Most of the EV's complexity is in the silicon of the controller, charger,
and BMS. Except for high power stages, these are subject to enormous
reductions in cost under mass production. In theory, at least, everything
in an EV should require less raw material and less labor to assemble. 

Once the development costs are amortized, EVs have the potential to
signifcantly reduce the manufacturing costs of a vehicle for automakers. 
They might be the change that some of us think we need in the small vs large
vehicle profitability dynamics - with no taxation or legislation needed.

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = EVDL Information:
http://www.evdl.org/help/ = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
= = = =
Note: mail sent to "evpost" and "etpost" addresses will not reach me. To
send a private message, please obtain my email address from the webpage
http://www.evdl.org/help/ .
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =


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