# Piaggio APE TM Diesel into hybrid - front wheel with wheelhub motor



## Logan (Sep 28, 2013)

I still do gather input. 
My very first thoughts where about givin an example to proove makeability (correct term?) but had to discover that my idea isnt new at all, but it is old. And that its not as easy as I believed it would be. I thought I would be the smart guy you know! Which showed to be NOT the case...

So my thoughts where wandering around the subject how to get a REAL hybrid just for MY needs. A hybrid with the feature to change the drive with just a switch from fossil fuel to e-drive or vice versa.
My motivation: Environment and co2.

My situation at home:
We already do use two cars right now.
1. Toyota Prius:
The company owned car my wife is allowed to use also privately is a
Toyota Prius. No chance for us to buy it used, because in Germany the employer gets problems selling company stuff cheaper to their employees (tax issue and social security issue).
2. Dacia Logan MCV
Our own private car. It did cost bit more than 13.000 EURO in 2010. Fine car for my taste (yes, its no VW or Mercedes in quality, but the first 70.000 km went by without ANY issue). 
BUT the Logan is thirsty! Just has 86 hp but needs more than 8 litres for 100km. TOO much for the everyday stuff. I still want to keep it because of 5 seats and roomy. And right now I need it every day. Too much co2 for my taste.

My needs for the hybrid are:
- solution for the small everyday usage - grocery, school fetching, veterinarian (for the dog)
- two seats (often have to take my boy or my dog with me)
- two different drives (independance and reliability)
- the two drives MUST NOT work together (legal issues)
- enough room for the passengers and freight
- weatherproof (right term?) - meaning a roof and a door and heating
- faster than 50 kph
- farther than 50 km per charge with the e-drive
- easy convertibility into a hybrid
- CHEAP (my wife you know...)

So I do NOT need any big solution. Or a very strong solution.
Just something with a motor to get around with my stuff.

My newest idea:
A Piaggio APE TM Diesel (I know, the diesels are just pickups)
YES a three wheeler! 
If it is possible to exchange the sole front wheel (similar to the e-bikes), this would be MUCH easier than to seperate the front and rear axle of a 4wd and get an e-motor in between. The APE does have the ICB power at the aft axle, so it would make sense to power the front wheel with a wheelhub e-motor.

http://piaggioape.co.uk/tm_panelvan.html

And the APE is a lightweight. With a big loading percentage.
Empty 465kg, payload ~700kg
http://piaggioape.co.uk/downloads/Ape%20TM%20Panel.pdf


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## tylerwatts (Feb 9, 2012)

Logan I'm confused. I replied to this post in another thread. Is my tapatalk on the fritz?


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## tylerwatts (Feb 9, 2012)

I was suggesting maybe using the Dacia with a simple Chinese drive in the rear. Like these: http://www.unitemotor.com/en/productmin.htm. cars like the Ford Sierra have modular rear hubs which could be bolted to the rear beam hubs with drive shafts like a de Dion setup.


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## tylerwatts (Feb 9, 2012)

Only problem will be space for batteries with all the ICE components remaining in the vehicle. Do you need the hybrid setup? A pure EV would be easier to build. The piaggio would make a good pure EV. Mounting a hub motor to the front wheel worries me and will be hard work.


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## Logan (Sep 28, 2013)

No tylerwatts, everything is at its best!
Nothing fritzing happened...

I copied this one in here to open up a new post since I did not want to interest people in this 4wd idea and come up with the APE in the same thread - would not be ok in my eyes...


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## tylerwatts (Feb 9, 2012)

Oh got it. Thanks. I'll copy my relevant posts also.


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## tylerwatts (Feb 9, 2012)

Copying from other thread: That is a possibility. But it would be best going all electric. Can you do this easier in Germany? 
Why not convert the Dacia? An idea I've had for ages is to turn the stock beam axle of a fwd car into a de Dion setup with motor mounted between the wheels behind the beam and modifying the hubs to drive hubs. Some cars used modular hubs, Ford Sierra is first to mind, and could bolt on with a lower power EV drive for hybrid/dual drive vehicle.


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## tylerwatts (Feb 9, 2012)

It seems reading through both threads that the piaggio type vehicle might be a good option. What is available second hand to you? Is it better to keep the ice or can a full EV be registered in Germany?


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## tylerwatts (Feb 9, 2012)

Problem with the single front wheel electric conversion is you have to maintain the centre line of the wheel where it is, meaning not much room for a hub motor. You would need to find the correct wheel with more offset to accommodate the width of the motor. Still feasible, some scooters and motorcycles have big offsets which could work well. And the van would have the space for batteries.


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## Logan (Sep 28, 2013)

Hi Tylerwatts,
I´ll answer your questions randomly...
I want to keep a full sized car with the Logan to have capacity and long range when needed.
I need the Logan 24/7 as long as there is no alternative (wifie is using her company car every day)
There is a guy in Germany who did switch from drum to disc brake.








Several wheelhub motors are offered with already a brakedisc attached.
I´ll look into it deeper. Found a guy here (in the 50 miles range) who is interested in converting a small APE (APE 50) anyway and who is interested in doin the APE TM together with me. He´s got experience because of having restored one in the past:
http://scooter-service-deutschland.blogspot.de/p/ape-tm-703.html
Think he´s got the needed hardware and knows left from right

Had a nice talk with him today bout how and why...
Will look deeper into the chinese market about these wheelhubmotors. There are several but for vehicle weight up to 180kg - thats not enough - need up to 1300 kg.


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## tylerwatts (Feb 9, 2012)

http://kellycontroller.com/brushless-hub-motors-c-21_62.html
Whole array of hub motors. My concern is driving the single front wheel electrically. Do you have any images of the drive system? Could an electric motor be added like a hybrid design where the electric motor runs in place of the ICE for full electric mode? I will check the blog for images.


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## tylerwatts (Feb 9, 2012)

Logan
I suggest converting to all electric. Replace the ICE with your motor and keep the CVT transmission. The frame seems to have lots of useful battery space so so range should be no problem. And if you are keeping the other cars you won't need as much range or speed. I would forget electric drive on the front personally. How difficult is it to register a pure EV conversion in Germany?


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