# Re: [EVDL] Zilla Settings for Valet/Teenager mode



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Zilla Settings for Valet/Teenager mode*

Hello Rob,

I first initially set up the Zilla settings for myself, so I do not get wild 
and break something. The Warp motor having a 200 amp continuous rating, 
that's what I set the motor amps at. The 180 volts of T-145's are 800 amp 
rating, fuse for 400 amp and the battery amp rating was set for 300 amps, 
but the maximum battery amperes I could pull was about 75 amps at 200 motor 
amps.

I use these settings for the break in period which was mainly neighborhood 
driving of 15 to 25 mph. The only problem in try to go up a vary steep 
hill, I could still pull that hill with a 7000 lb EV in a 1st gear which has 
a overall ratio of 19.495:1 at 200 motor amps at 75 battery amps at 15 mph 
max speed.

The maximum rpm is 6000 rpm, and that is set at 5000 rpm. This gives me a 
top speed of 20 mph in 1st gear, 30 mph in 2nd gear and also a 30 mph in 3rd 
gear which is now limit by the 200 motor amps.

This is about the right settings for a motor and battery break in period 
which I left these settings for about a year. Only driving up to 5 miles a 
day on mostly flat level ground.

I then reset these settings to 800 motor amp and kept the battery amp at 300 
amps. I find that getting out of a parking spot and getting up to speed on 
the street, I need at least 500 motor amps and 150 battery amps for a normal 
acceleration speed, otherwise it may take you forever to find a opening 
where there are no other cars approaching.

Anything ampere above the 200 amp rating of the Warp motors should not be 
only seconds, not minutes.

A lite weight EV may need different settings then a heavy one.

Roland


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Rob Trahms" <[email protected]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, September 17, 2008 5:38 AM
Subject: [EVDL] Zilla Settings for Valet/Teenager mode


>
> Hi -
> I am interested in hearing what HB parameters Z1K owners have used for
> configuring Valet/Teenager mode. I am currently experimenting with 
> reducing
> BA (battery amps) and Motor Amps parameters. I have not touched the Motor
> Volts parameter (yet). FYI, I have a Netgain ImPulse9 motor wired to the
> Z1K-HV, and a 189V battery pack.
>
> Thanks!
> Rob
>
> -----
> Rob Trahms
> [email protected]
> Electro - the Cabby-EV
> http://chaosmgmt.blogspot.com chaosmgmt.blogspot.com
>
> -- 
> View this message in context: 
> http://www.nabble.com/Zilla-Settings-for-Valet-Teenager-mode-tp19531217p19531217.html
> Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at 
> Nabble.com.
>
> _______________________________________________
> General EVDL support: http://evdl.org/help/
> Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
> Archives: http://evdl.org/archive/
> Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>
> 

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Zilla Settings for Valet/Teenager mode*

Reduce battery current to reduce potential acceleration Reduce motor volts to
hold down top speed.
The thing that worries me the most is over-revving and I'm not sure the
Zilla is quick enough to limit revs when an EV novice steps on the throttle
not realizing he is in neutral or has the clutch depressed.



Hi -
I am interested in hearing what HB parameters Z1K owners have used for
configuring Valet/Teenager mode. 

-----
2000 Ford Focus, 9" ADC, Zilla 1K, 15x Sam's Club 6V GC-2's 
-- 
View this message in context: http://www.nabble.com/Zilla-Settings-for-Valet-Teenager-mode-tp19531217p19537388.html
Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Zilla Settings for Valet/Teenager mode*

Walter, The Zilla IS quick enough to prevent motor overrreving. All you
need to do is program your desired upper limit into the hairball. Otmar is
a clever fellow. [email protected] NWEV

-----Original Message-----
From: Walter Guinon

Reduce battery current to reduce potential acceleration Reduce motor volts
to
hold down top speed.
The thing that worries me the most is over-revving and I'm not sure the
Zilla is quick enough to limit revs when an EV novice steps on the throttle
not realizing he is in neutral or has the clutch depressed.




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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Zilla Settings for Valet/Teenager mode*

Hello. Forgive a probably newby question but I am confused by the reference
to motor amps being different than battery amps. Is this only controller
semantics or is there really a difference between amps the motor is drawing
and amps coming from the battery? If there really is a difference between
amps at the motor and at the battery, can someone explain why this is?

Jim






> Roland Wiench wrote:
> >
> > Hello Rob,
> >
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Zilla Settings for Valet/Teenager mode*

Many people on here can explain this better than I can but I will take a
crack at it. Everyone, if I am wrong please tell me as I am also trying to
learn.

The faster a series wound motor turns the higher the Back EMF and the higher
the Back EMF the bigger the difference between battery amps and motor amps.
So when the motor is stopped the back EMF is zero so motor amps equals
battery amps but the faster you turn the motor the more Back EMF is created
and Back EMF creates amperage flow between the motor and the controller but
not the battery (I am a little sketchy on the theory here) and the amperage
passes through the freewheel diodes in the controller hence the amperage on
the motor and the heat generated internal to the motor isn't directly
related to battery amps but instead related to motor amps.

I am sure I got some part of the above wrong so read the rest of the
explanations to see where I goofed up. I am also still learning this stuff.
Basically remember just because your batt amps are low when you are at
cruising speed don't think your motor isn't going to heat up because it will
get hot even though you aren't putting high volumes of battery amps in to
it. Hence the need for cooling.

-----Original Message-----
From: maJiCMan [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: Wednesday, September 17, 2008 12:17 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Zilla Settings for Valet/Teenager mode



Hello. Forgive a probably newby question but I am confused by the reference
to motor amps being different than battery amps. Is this only controller
semantics or is there really a difference between amps the motor is drawing
and amps coming from the battery? If there really is a difference between
amps at the motor and at the battery, can someone explain why this is?

Jim






> Roland Wiench wrote:
> >
> > Hello Rob,
> >
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Zilla Settings for Valet/Teenager mode*

You can look at some old Zilla Data capture plots I did with Electrabishi if it help the explanation

http://home.gci.net/~saintbernard/

----- Original Message -----
From: Jeff Miller <[email protected]>
Date: Wednesday, September 17, 2008 10:52 am
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Zilla Settings for Valet/Teenager mode
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <[email protected]>

> Many people on here can explain this better than I can but I will 
> take a
> crack at it. Everyone, if I am wrong please tell me as I am also 
> trying to
> learn.
> 
> The faster a series wound motor turns the higher the Back EMF and 
> the higher
> the Back EMF the bigger the difference between battery amps and 
> motor amps.
> So when the motor is stopped the back EMF is zero so motor amps equals
> battery amps but the faster you turn the motor the more Back EMF is 
> createdand Back EMF creates amperage flow between the motor and the 
> controller but
> not the battery (I am a little sketchy on the theory here) and the 
> amperagepasses through the freewheel diodes in the controller hence 
> the amperage on
> the motor and the heat generated internal to the motor isn't directly
> related to battery amps but instead related to motor amps.
> 
> I am sure I got some part of the above wrong so read the rest of the
> explanations to see where I goofed up. I am also still learning 
> this stuff.
> Basically remember just because your batt amps are low when you are at
> cruising speed don't think your motor isn't going to heat up 
> because it will
> get hot even though you aren't putting high volumes of battery amps 
> in to
> it. Hence the need for cooling.
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: maJiCMan [mailto:[email protected]]
> Sent: Wednesday, September 17, 2008 12:17 PM
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Zilla Settings for Valet/Teenager mode
> 
> 
> 
> Hello. Forgive a probably newby question but I am confused by the 
> referenceto motor amps being different than battery amps. Is this 
> only controller
> semantics or is there really a difference between amps the motor is 
> drawingand amps coming from the battery? If there really is a 
> difference between
> amps at the motor and at the battery, can someone explain why this is?
> 
> Jim
> 
> 
> 
> 


> > Roland Wiench wrote:
> > >
> > > Hello Rob,
> > >
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Zilla Settings for Valet/Teenager mode*

Don't worry about it. I' have tried it. Its kinda scary at first. Start out with lower RPM limits ( like 500 rpm), put it in neutral, mash on the go pedal and see for yourself. I have done this up to 1000 rpm on a 9" motor and am comfortable that it will limit effectively at 5000 rpm. The Zilla is very fast with cycle per cycle checking of the operating parameters. It will only hit over (my limit of) 5000 rpm for 1 cycle before it would shut down. That is not enough time for it to accelerate appreciably above 5000 rpm.

Mike 

----- Original Message -----
From: Walter Guinon <[email protected]>
Date: Wednesday, September 17, 2008 9:42 am
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Zilla Settings for Valet/Teenager mode
To: [email protected]

> 
> Reduce battery current to reduce potential acceleration Reduce 
> motor volts to
> hold down top speed.
> The thing that worries me the most is over-revving and I'm not sure 
> theZilla is quick enough to limit revs when an EV novice steps on 
> the throttle
> not realizing he is in neutral or has the clutch depressed.
> 
> 
> 
> Hi -
> I am interested in hearing what HB parameters Z1K owners have used for
> configuring Valet/Teenager mode. 
> 
> -----
> 2000 Ford Focus, 9" ADC, Zilla 1K, 15x Sam's Club 6V GC-2's 
> -- 
> View this message in context: http://www.nabble.com/Zilla-Settings-
> for-Valet-Teenager-mode-tp19531217p19537388.html
> Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive 
> at Nabble.com.
> 
> _______________________________________________
> General EVDL support: http://evdl.org/help/
> Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
> Archives: http://evdl.org/archive/
> Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
> 
> 

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Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Zilla Settings for Valet/Teenager mode*

Don't worry about it. I' have tried it. Its kinda scary at first. Start out with lower RPM limits ( like 500 rpm), put it in neutral, mash on the go pedal and see for yourself. I have done this up to 1000 rpm on a 9" motor and am comfortable that it will limit effectively at 5000 rpm. The Zilla is very fast with cycle per cycle checking of the operating parameters. It will only hit over (my limit of) 5000 rpm for 1 cycle before it would shut down. That is not enough time for it to accelerate appreciably above 5000 rpm.

Mike 

----- Original Message -----
From: Walter Guinon <[email protected]>
Date: Wednesday, September 17, 2008 9:42 am
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Zilla Settings for Valet/Teenager mode
To: [email protected]

> 
> Reduce battery current to reduce potential acceleration Reduce 
> motor volts to
> hold down top speed.
> The thing that worries me the most is over-revving and I'm not sure 
> theZilla is quick enough to limit revs when an EV novice steps on 
> the throttle
> not realizing he is in neutral or has the clutch depressed.
> 
> 
> 
> Hi -
> I am interested in hearing what HB parameters Z1K owners have used for
> configuring Valet/Teenager mode. 
> 
> -----
> 2000 Ford Focus, 9" ADC, Zilla 1K, 15x Sam's Club 6V GC-2's 
> -- 
> View this message in context: http://www.nabble.com/Zilla-Settings-
> for-Valet-Teenager-mode-tp19531217p19537388.html
> Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive 
> at Nabble.com.
> 
> _______________________________________________
> General EVDL support: http://evdl.org/help/
> Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
> Archives: http://evdl.org/archive/
> Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
> 
> 

_______________________________________________
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Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
Archives: http://evdl.org/archive/
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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Zilla Settings for Valet/Teenager mode*

Think of the controller as a big DC-DC converter. If the controller is 
perfectly efficient power in equals power out. The controller 
effectively drops the input voltage down on the output to control the 
motor's speed. The amps out then must be proportionately higher than 
amps in. At least that's my understanding.

- SteveS



> maJiCMan wrote:
> > Hello. Forgive a probably newby question but I am confused by the reference
> > to motor amps being different than battery amps. Is this only controller
> > semantics or is there really a difference between amps the motor is drawing
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Zilla Settings for Valet/Teenager mode*

Rob and All,
Regarding teenagers, I set the battery voltage cut-off fairly high, in order
to limit the damage my daughter-unit would do in the winter with c-c-c-cold
lead!
You should reduce your motor volts per Jim (the motor God) Husted's recommendations.
Suck Amps,
BB

>Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2008 05:38:28 -0700 (PDT)
>From: Rob Trahms
>
>Hi -
>I am interested in hearing what HB parameters Z1K owners have used for
>configuring Valet/Teenager mode. I am currently experimenting with reducing
>BA (battery amps) and Motor Amps parameters. I have not touched the Motor
>Volts parameter (yet). FYI, I have a Netgain ImPulse9 motor wired to the
>Z1K-HV, and a 189V battery pack.
>
>Thanks!
>Rob
>
>-----
>Rob Trahms
>[email protected]
>Electro - the Cabby-EV
>http://chaosmgmt.blogspot.com chaosmgmt.blogspot.com 

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Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Zilla Settings for Valet/Teenager mode*

Here's how it was explained to me.

Assume your battery voltage is 50V.

This is rather simplified. There are many factors I'm intentionally not 
mentioning. While these factors are important, for the sake of 
illustration and clarity they will be left out. Statements in quotes 
("") should not be taken literally, they're only for illustrative language.

The controller works by switching the motor on and off very quickly. 
Usually 15-20 thousand times a second. It controls power by the ratio 
of the switch (actually a transistor) ON time vs OFF time. This is 
pulse width modulation (PWM).

For the sake of argument, let's say that the ratio is exactly 1/2. That 
is, the switch is on for the same amount of time it's off. During the 
switch ON time, let's say 100 amps is flowing through the switch; that 
means 100 amps flows from the batteries, through the switch, through the 
motor and back to the battery. 

During the OFF time, zero amps flows from the batteries and through the 
switch. HOWEVER, there is still current flowing through the motor. 
Here's why: the motor has an inductance. This means the current through 
the motor tends to resist changing. When the switch turns off, current 
"wants" to to continue to flow through the motor, but it has no path 
because the switch is now off. Except, there are "freewheel diodes" in 
the controller. These are connected across the motor in such a way that 
allows the current to continue to flow through the motor when the switch 
turns off. When the switch is off, the diodes are "on". When the 
switch is on, the diodes are "off."

You're probably wondering "Well fine, but how does this tell me what the 
difference is between motor amps and battery amps." Here's the answer: 
Those 100Amps from the battery are only flowing 1/2 of the time 
(remember, ratio of ON to OFF is 1/2 or 50%, in this example). That 
means that the _average_ current from the batteries is only 50A. Since 
the current continues to flow through the motor during the OFF time, 
then the current through the motor is 100A, since it's "on all the 
time". Also, the voltage that the motor sees on _average_ is only 1/2 
of the battery voltage, since the voltage is applied to the motor only 
1/2 of the time. The motor volts is only 25V _average_ (1/2 pack 
voltage of 50V).

Now, let's change just 1 factor. Assume everything is the same except 
the ratio. Let's change it to 75%. The current during on time is still 
100A. The motor current is still 100A. The _battery_ current is 75A, 
average. The motor voltage is about 38 volts (75% of 50V).

The big question is: How much current does my motor draw? The (short) 
answer to that is "It depends on a lot of factors." Returning to the 
example above of 100A motor current, the motor does not reach this value 
instantaneously because of the nature of it's inductance. On the first 
ON cycle, the current may go from 0 to 20A, on the second it may go from 
20 to 40A. It may take several cycles to equalize to 100A, IF all of 
the other factors remain constant. Which they wont: battery voltage, 
back EMF, temperature, load, etc make the exact value the motor "wants" 
rather a moving target.

Hope this helps.

I await being picked apart by the electronics gurus found hereabouts =)






> maJiCMan wrote:
> > Hello. Forgive a probably newby question but I am confused by the reference
> > to motor amps being different than battery amps. Is this only controller
> > semantics or is there really a difference between amps the motor is drawing
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Zilla Settings for Valet/Teenager mode*

Hi folks
I have been mostly lurking on the list for the last year. During that time I 
have successfully completed my first conversion (A 1995 Saturn SW). It has 
become my primary daily use vehicle. I am now installing a ceramic heater 
core in place of the ICE core for the cold New England winters. Until 
recently I have felt reasonably confident that I would be able to follow the 
posts and to continue to educate myself . But lately I have found the posts 
to be increasingly technical, particularly in the use of acronyms and 
abbreviations..This seems like a good thing, but lately I have felt excluded 
from many of the posts by my lack of knowledge of the world of techie 
talk.and electronics. For example, "back EMF", what does this mean? I would 
request that letter writers, for the benefit of those of us still learning, 
please bracket these abreviations with their full name. There appears to be 
a great diversity of subscribers here and the greater number we can draw 
closer the better. Just a thought.
Richard Thomas
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Jeff Miller" <[email protected]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, September 17, 2008 3:46 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Zilla Settings for Valet/Teenager mode


> Many people on here can explain this better than I can but I will take a
> crack at it. Everyone, if I am wrong please tell me as I am also trying 
> to
> learn.
>
> The faster a series wound motor turns the higher the Back EMF and the 
> higher
> the Back EMF the bigger the difference between battery amps and motor 
> amps.
> So when the motor is stopped the back EMF is zero so motor amps equals
> battery amps but the faster you turn the motor the more Back EMF is 
> created
> and Back EMF creates amperage flow between the motor and the controller 
> but
> not the battery (I am a little sketchy on the theory here) and the 
> amperage
> passes through the freewheel diodes in the controller hence the amperage 
> on
> the motor and the heat generated internal to the motor isn't directly
> related to battery amps but instead related to motor amps.
>
> I am sure I got some part of the above wrong so read the rest of the
> explanations to see where I goofed up. I am also still learning this 
> stuff.
> Basically remember just because your batt amps are low when you are at
> cruising speed don't think your motor isn't going to heat up because it 
> will
> get hot even though you aren't putting high volumes of battery amps in to
> it. Hence the need for cooling.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: maJiCMan [mailto:[email protected]]
> Sent: Wednesday, September 17, 2008 12:17 PM
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Zilla Settings for Valet/Teenager mode
>
>
>
> Hello. Forgive a probably newby question but I am confused by the 
> reference
> to motor amps being different than battery amps. Is this only controller
> semantics or is there really a difference between amps the motor is 
> drawing
> and amps coming from the battery? If there really is a difference between
> amps at the motor and at the battery, can someone explain why this is?
>
> Jim
>
>
>
>


> > Roland Wiench wrote:
> >>
> >> Hello Rob,
> >>
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Zilla Settings for Valet/Teenager mode*

>
> Hello. Forgive a probably newby question but I am confused by the reference
> to motor amps being different than battery amps. Is this only controller
> semantics or is there really a difference between amps the motor is drawing
> and amps coming from the battery? If there really is a difference between
> amps at the motor and at the battery, can someone explain why this is?
>
> Jim
> 
Power in = power out.


There is a relationship between duty cycle and current transfer that 
together with the high inductance has a current multiplying effect.


When the duty cycle is 100%, battery current and voltage = motor current 
and voltage.

At 50% duty cycle the motor sees spikes and the inductance keeps the 
current flowing and prevents the voltage from rising while the input 
from the battery stays relatively constant voltage and current because 
of the high capacitance.

On max acceleration at 990 motor amps, my 288V pack sags near 260V and 
pulls less than 100A right off the line quickly climbing to 400A as the 
rpms come.
It is because we start out limited on motor amps. As we begin to 
increase the rpm at a constant 990A, the duty cycle increases and the 
power goes up and hits the 400A limit. Then the 170V motor limit comes 
into play and the amps drop and I move into constant power. I actually 
could turn up the battery amp limit and get a bit more out of it, but to 
be honest, I would get arrested.





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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Zilla Settings for Valet/Teenager mode*

Here is a copy of a recent email from Otmar that you may find helpful.

Do you have documented a single motor configuration. In my case I have a:
>Zilla 1K-HV -P
>Warp 9
>Speed sensor & Tachometer
>EV Source water cooling
>15 Odyssey PC1500's (180 volts)
>
>Thanks in advance.

I don't have a set of settings copied for a single motor offhand.
What part is confusing?

Settings can vary quite a bit with one end being conservative, safe
and long lasting, and the other end being fast, short lived and risks
breaking things. They vary depending on vehicle, setup and desired
performance.

For your setup, very safe settings would start with the default
settings and then:
Set motor current at 600A, (ignore parallel current)
Set Motor Voltage to 145V.
Reverse current maybe 300, and reverse voltage at 80. (assuming you
have a shifting transmission and hooked up the reverse input.
Set battery light voltage to 10.5V per battery, or 158V
Set battery voltage limit to 9V per battery or 135V.
Set your options depending on your setup, which I think would have
you turning on: a, d, and leaving on p.

-- 
I hope this helps,
-Otmar
A message from Support
Mailto:[email protected]

http://www.CafeElectric.com/

--------------------------------------------------
From: "Rob Trahms" <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, September 17, 2008 5:38 AM
To: <[email protected]>
Subject: [EVDL] Zilla Settings for Valet/Teenager mode

>
> Hi -
> I am interested in hearing what HB parameters Z1K owners have used for
> configuring Valet/Teenager mode. I am currently experimenting with 
> reducing
> BA (battery amps) and Motor Amps parameters. I have not touched the Motor
> Volts parameter (yet). FYI, I have a Netgain ImPulse9 motor wired to the
> Z1K-HV, and a 189V battery pack.
>
> Thanks!
> Rob
>
> -----
> Rob Trahms
> [email protected]
> Electro - the Cabby-EV
> http://chaosmgmt.blogspot.com chaosmgmt.blogspot.com
>
> -- 
> View this message in context: 
> http://www.nabble.com/Zilla-Settings-for-Valet-Teenager-mode-tp19531217p19531217.html
> Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at 
> Nabble.com.
>
> _______________________________________________
> General EVDL support: http://evdl.org/help/
> Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
> Archives: http://evdl.org/archive/
> Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
> 

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Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
Archives: http://evdl.org/archive/
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----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Zilla Settings for Valet/Teenager mode*

Back EMF = a voltage (Electromotive Force) generated by a motor inverse to
the applied voltage. When the back EMF plus windage and other loads equal
the applied voltage, the motor will not turn any faster. Motors that make
good generators (like PM [Permanent Magnet] motors) exhibit this more than
series wound motors. Field weakening makes a motor a worse generator,
allowing it to turn faster by reducing the back EMF.
Stephen Chapman

On Wed, Sep 17, 2008 at 9:02 PM, richarddthomas


> <[email protected]>wrote:
> 
> > Hi folks
> > I have been mostly lurking on the list for the last year. During that time
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Zilla Settings for Valet/Teenager mode*

Back Electromotive Force which I persoanlly have a hard time describing so
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Counter-electromotive_force

http://www.acroname.com/robotics/info/articles/back-emf/back-emf.html

http://www.answers.com/topic/counter-electromotive-force

"If it is assumed that a motor is 100% efficient with no friction or windage
losses, the speed of the armature will increase until the back electromotive
force is equal to the applied electromotive force, i.e. there will be no net
electromotive force, no current flow and hence, no net force. The armature
will spin at a constant rate, of its own accord."
(From Asnwers.com link above)

So the way I understand it Back EMF causes current flow through the motor
and creates heat however you aren't adding many more battery amps. So the
way I have seen this used was battery amps of 75 but the motor was turning
at 4000 RPM so the motor amps were something like 300 to 500??? The trick
is you only get mechanical power as related to battery amps but you get heat
based on motor amps. The other side is also true you can only get as much
mechanical power out of the motor as you can stuff amps in. To tie this in
with our knowledge base this is why you can turn a motor faster on higher
voltages as it takes ever more voltage to overcome the BackEMF as Back EMF
increases as speed increases. I think that helped me understand it better
and I hope you understand it better also.

Again this is only my understanding. Jim Husted and others, no doubt, could
explain this better than I can at this time because like yourself I am still
learning.

I think this was discussed some during the conversation where the VW bus
exploded it's 6.7" motor.

Also I couldn't remember what Back EMF stood for when I wrote that last
email.



-----Original Message-----
From: richarddthomas [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: Wednesday, September 17, 2008 7:03 PM
To: [email protected]; Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Zilla Settings for Valet/Teenager mode


Hi folks
I have been mostly lurking on the list for the last year. During that time I
have successfully completed my first conversion (A 1995 Saturn SW). It has
become my primary daily use vehicle. I am now installing a ceramic heater
core in place of the ICE core for the cold New England winters. Until
recently I have felt reasonably confident that I would be able to follow the
posts and to continue to educate myself . But lately I have found the posts
to be increasingly technical, particularly in the use of acronyms and
abbreviations..This seems like a good thing, but lately I have felt excluded
from many of the posts by my lack of knowledge of the world of techie
talk.and electronics. For example, "back EMF", what does this mean? I would
request that letter writers, for the benefit of those of us still learning,
please bracket these abreviations with their full name. There appears to be
a great diversity of subscribers here and the greater number we can draw
closer the better. Just a thought.
Richard Thomas
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jeff Miller" <[email protected]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, September 17, 2008 3:46 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Zilla Settings for Valet/Teenager mode


> Many people on here can explain this better than I can but I will take a
> crack at it. Everyone, if I am wrong please tell me as I am also trying
> to
> learn.
>
> The faster a series wound motor turns the higher the Back EMF and the
> higher
> the Back EMF the bigger the difference between battery amps and motor
> amps.
> So when the motor is stopped the back EMF is zero so motor amps equals
> battery amps but the faster you turn the motor the more Back EMF is
> created
> and Back EMF creates amperage flow between the motor and the controller
> but
> not the battery (I am a little sketchy on the theory here) and the
> amperage
> passes through the freewheel diodes in the controller hence the amperage
> on
> the motor and the heat generated internal to the motor isn't directly
> related to battery amps but instead related to motor amps.
>
> I am sure I got some part of the above wrong so read the rest of the
> explanations to see where I goofed up. I am also still learning this
> stuff.
> Basically remember just because your batt amps are low when you are at
> cruising speed don't think your motor isn't going to heat up because it
> will
> get hot even though you aren't putting high volumes of battery amps in to
> it. Hence the need for cooling.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: maJiCMan [mailto:[email protected]]
> Sent: Wednesday, September 17, 2008 12:17 PM
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Zilla Settings for Valet/Teenager mode
>
>
>
> Hello. Forgive a probably newby question but I am confused by the
> reference
> to motor amps being different than battery amps. Is this only controller
> semantics or is there really a difference between amps the motor is
> drawing
> and amps coming from the battery? If there really is a difference between
> amps at the motor and at the battery, can someone explain why this is?
>
> Jim
>
>
>
>


> > Roland Wiench wrote:
> >>
> >> Hello Rob,
> >>
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Zilla Settings for Valet/Teenager mode*



> Jeff Miller wrote:
> > So the way I understand it Back EMF causes current flow through the
> > motor and creates heat however you aren't adding many more battery
> > amps.
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Zilla Settings for Valet/Teenager mode*

Doesn't this assume you have installed a speed sensor on the motor.

Or can you get htis protection with just the Zilla power module and 
hariball?


John


> MIKE WILLMON wrote:
> 
> > Don't worry about it. I' have tried it. Its kinda scary at
> > first. Start out with lower RPM limits ( like 500 rpm), put it in
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Zilla Settings for Valet/Teenager mode*

Yes, It does actually require an rpm sensor. Not smart to go without one
unless you don't care about your motor, especially if it can be decoupled
from the driveline. If you've spent all that money on a Zilla, don't be
cheap and skimp on the speed sensor 

> -----Original Message-----
> From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On
> Behalf Of John in Ma
> Sent: Thursday, September 18, 2008 5:18 PM
> To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Zilla Settings for Valet/Teenager mode
> 
> Doesn't this assume you have installed a speed sensor on the motor.
> 
> Or can you get htis protection with just the Zilla power module and
> hariball?
> 
> 
> John
>


> MIKE WILLMON wrote:
> >
> > > Don't worry about it. I' have tried it. Its kinda scary at
> > > first. Start out with lower RPM limits ( like 500 rpm), put it in
> ...


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