# Tesla increase pack capacity to 100kWhrs



## Karter2 (Nov 17, 2011)

https://news.google.com/news/ampvie...ation-battery-pack-technology/amp/#pt0-611132
Same 18650 cells as before..
11% more capacity (more cells)
But only 4% more weight !.. (48lbs ?)
Different cooling arangement
Different "packaging" of cells and modules


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## PhantomPholly (Aug 20, 2008)

Only available with the "performance package:"

0-60 in 2.6 seconds for the Model S, now touted as the fastest production vehicle in the world! Disclaimer: One out of production vehicle and one limited production vehicle still being made equal it's performance. But, add in no shifting required and one would expect far more consistent times...


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## poprock (Apr 29, 2010)

PhantomPholly said:


> Only available with the "performance package:"
> 
> 0-60 in 2.6 seconds for the Model S, now touted as the fastest production vehicle in the world! Disclaimer: One out of production vehicle and one limited production vehicle still being made equal it's performance. But, add in no shifting required and one would expect far more consistent times...


At what point does human ability cease to control such acceleration? Other than pushing the accelerator pedal, we are not doing much so guestimating the green light and avoiding premature launch is the only skill.(And a big thank you to Richard of Admin for correcting my post count)


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## PhantomPholly (Aug 20, 2008)

poprock said:


> At what point does human ability cease to control such acceleration?


lol that ship sailed long ago for most people, and a very few can "nearly" control such vehicles now. As an ex-fighter pilot and also ex-motocross driver, my "fun driving" has always been past the point of positive control and into the regime of "controlled chaos." Sometimes you push it just a bit too far, and if you're lucky you just tell a story at the bar.



> Other than pushing the accelerator pedal, we are not doing much so guestimating the green light and avoiding premature launch is the only skill.(And a big thank you to Richard of Admin for correcting my post count)


Yes, but nothing can replace the adrenaline rush!


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## poprock (Apr 29, 2010)

With current Tesla driverless technology a 220lb driver could be replaced by a sensor tripping 1/100 of a second after the green. Auto throttle and self steering will look after the rest. A whole new category?


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

To impress, you have to over-impress


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## dougingraham (Jul 26, 2011)

poprock said:


> With current Tesla driverless technology a 220lb driver could be replaced by a sensor tripping 1/100 of a second after the green. Auto throttle and self steering will look after the rest. A whole new category?


You need to trip before the green because you have approximately a one foot roll out before the clock starts. What I was told was to wait for one light before the green on the tree to come on and punch it. This tends to work out pretty well for noobs like me on the drag strip. When I run the numbers on the sim it looks like the Rx-7 is already doing a little over 5 mph when the tires clear the sensor.

There is a pikes peak Tesla this year where they took around 800 lbs of stuff out of the car. As a thought experiment I designed a replacement battery that would remove another 700 lbs (but only have a 5 to 7 mile range). You do both of these and your drag strip times would drop considerably.


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## dougingraham (Jul 26, 2011)

I was hoping someone had found a site with some details. A change in the cooling system which allows a tighter packing density is really the only thing I have seen. Elon or JB said the cells are the same as the 90 kWh. So in going from 90 to 100 kWh they changed from a 74 to an 82 parallel arrangement meaning an increase from 7104 cells to 7872 cells. This is an additional 48 cells in each module and this seems unlikely.


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## Karter2 (Nov 17, 2011)

Musk etc are well able to be economical with the information !
So saying they are the same cells doesnt really identify what is actually in the packs.
Tesla are known to have bought many different brands , and specs of cells, in quantity, so they have options up their robotic sleeves !
The last definitive ID of the Tesla cells from a 85 kWhr pack, was that they were the "BE" version. ( or at least had identical capacity @ 3.2Ahr, and performance profile as the BE cell)
But do we know if they ever upgraded to the 3.5Ahr "GA" spec cell in any of the packs , such as the 90kWhr version ?


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

So all Model S packs are 96 series ?
The S70 I drove never went above 352v even at 100 SOC so that means each cell only went to 3.66v and the Model X that Nyland drove went up to 400v.
Doug can you verify this ?


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## kennybobby (Aug 10, 2012)

Not all are 96 series, the 60 kwh pack is 84s64p in 14 bricks, the 85 and 90kwh packs are 96s74p in 16 bricks.

Data from teslamotorsclub website, where packs have been disassembled and counted

number of cells:

85 = 7104 (96s74p)

70 = 6216 (84s74p)

60 = 5376 (84s64p)


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## dougingraham (Jul 26, 2011)

The 40 and 60 kwh packs are the same with the 40 being software limited. These packs are 14 modules of 6S making a pack of 84S. I saw photos of a module from a 60 that had cells removed from the P arrangement. I don't know how many this was but a full module has 74P. If you do the rough calculation from 85 to 60 going from 16 modules to 14 you would expect a rating of 74 kwh. To get down to 60 you would need to remove 14 cells from each paralleled cell giving you 60 P.

For the 70 I expect they just drop to 14 modules (84S) which means a fully charged pack voltage of around 353 volts. I am guessing the 75 kwh pack is the same with a little bit better cells.

The 100 kwh pack has redesigned modules in it so the cells are packed more efficiently. Instead of 74P they are probably 82P. This has not been verified and is just a guess.

The numbers Tesla uses have always seemed a little squishy to me. For example. If you fully charge an 85 and drive it until it is flat with the climate control system turned off you can get about 78 kwh out of the pack. So what happened to the other 7 kwh? Hard to believe that the power steering, brake booster, DC-DC and running lights would use 7 kwh. This would not be too hard to test. Fully charge. Sit in driveway with car in neutral for an hour. Charge back to 100% while measuring the input at the wall.


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

I bet they could fit even more cells if instead of running hoses or bladders they potted them and used aircraft grade coolant to flood micro pores in the potting.
Very interesting info about pack configuration. thanks


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

Doug, can you get a battery management readout from the service department.
ie something similar to the Batrium screens we have in out DIY's that show individual cell voltage and run your pack flat to about 3km range then get the service dept to pull up a screen that shows any uneven-ness at bottom of charge ?


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## dougingraham (Jul 26, 2011)

RIPPERTON said:


> Doug, can you get a battery management readout from the service department.
> ie something similar to the Batrium screens we have in out DIY's that show individual cell voltage and run your pack flat to about 3km range then get the service dept to pull up a screen that shows any uneven-ness at bottom of charge ?


At some point I would like this capability but the car does not have this in the customer accessible software. I think Jack R has a program on his can bus product that can do this when plugged into the Tesla.

For normal customers this would be a distraction and since there is nothing you can do about an imbalance why show the customers that there is one? They might start demanding a replacement pack.


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

The thing is, with the 70 for example when I got to what the range indicator told me was almost empty ie 7km, the individual cell voltage was a calculated 3.57v which I dont think is BOC for a NCA. Its actually 3.0v.
So in an emergency situation a driver could, in a calculated way go into negative km if he could see that individual cell voltages were not going below or near 3.0v and safely ie get their kid to the hospital for the snake bite antivenom without damaging the battery or setting it on fire.


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## Karter2 (Nov 17, 2011)

I suspect there are several levels of software protection to prevent over discharge below whatever pack voltage Tesla think is safe for battery protection.
So you would need to have some form of override password to go beyond the "LVC" ...and that would likely come with a warranty disclaimer.
I doubt Tesla would leave themselves open to the potential consequences of someone sucking the pack down into the death zone !


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## dougingraham (Jul 26, 2011)

RIPPERTON said:


> The thing is, with the 70 for example when I got to what the range indicator told me was almost empty ie 7km, the individual cell voltage was a calculated 3.57v which I dont think is BOC for a NCA. Its actually 3.0v.
> So in an emergency situation a driver could, in a calculated way go into negative km if he could see that individual cell voltages were not going below or near 3.0v and safely ie get their kid to the hospital for the snake bite antivenom without damaging the battery or setting it on fire.


There are several videos on Youtube where a tesla has been driven for as many as 10 miles (16 kn) with the range showing zero. It would be foolish to ever depend on this behavior.

Where did you get the 3.57 vpc calculated value. 3.57*14*6 = 299.88 volts but I don't know where you would have been able to see that voltage except for when you plug into a supercharger or Chademo. And then it doesn't really show you the voltage of the pack without some current flowing. It looks like they do a ground fault test with the contactors open when you first plug in and display that voltage briefly. Then you hear the contactors close and see a voltage displayed with zero current. Then the current starts to quickly ramp up. I have never written down this initial voltage when my pack was at a low state of charge but I would like to. What I do remember is seeing a voltage a little above 300 which would be 3.125 vpc on my car. But I don't have this documented so how can I trust it.

Next week my Tesla is going in for a service. Tesla called me and said that I need a power switch in the battery replaced. As near as I can tell this is a pair of contactors in the battery that is prone to failure (unexpected fail open) on the early cars. They are sending a flatbed tow truck 400 miles to pick up my car and haul to Denver. I am having them do some warranty work at the same time.


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

Soon as I plug the SC in. I go sit in the car and as current slowly starts to ramp up I see what is most probably battery voltage. When it had 7km in it the battery was about 300v divided by 84 = 3.57.
If you pushed it to the limit you could go down to 260v IF you at least had a bloody voltmeter whilst driving.
The car really keeps you in the dark about its battery.


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## dougingraham (Jul 26, 2011)

I supercharged yesterday and because of this discussion I paid more attention than I had for a while. Turns out that with the 8.0 software upgrade they no longer even show the volts and amps when supercharging. You can still see it on the mobile ap so it isn't completely gone yet.

I am doing a day trip today, it will end up at about 300 miles traveled. Driving around the Black Hills of South Dakota, supercharging in Gillette Wyoming for about 20 minutes, stopping at Devils Tower National Monument, and then back home on some fun secondary roads.

You can't do a day trip like this in anything but a Tesla today. The Bolt will have enough range but no L3 charging infrastructure exists yet so you would have to sit in Gillette for over 5 hours. This trip would be more fun in the RX-7 conversion but the range restrictions are why I got the Tesla.

Departure time is coming up. Time to get ready. Have a good weekend everyone!


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