# 1986 VW Golf Conversion



## patzke (Nov 1, 2008)

To sum all that bogus up there up:

What material is the best for building battery racks?


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## TX_Dj (Jul 25, 2008)

Hey Nick!

Welcome to the forum.

Looks like you've got a game plan, and a target completion date! Should be easy to pull off, once you get all that motor plate issue fixed.

Steel makes for a good battery box material. It is strong, easy to work with, and not as subject to stress fracture as the same dimension aluminum would be under all the battery weight.

You might look around, though- there are some companies that make kits specifically for golf/rabbit installations, including pre-fab battery boxes that may work for you.


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## patzke (Nov 1, 2008)

TX_Dj said:


> Hey Nick!
> 
> Welcome to the forum.
> 
> ...



Thanks DJ for the warm welcome. 
A prefab kit would be nice! I have had my eyes open for them but have not actually searched for them. I'll start looking around on some EV sites for some, but do you know of a vendor that would have them?


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## Jimdear2 (Oct 12, 2008)

patzke said:


> To sum all that bogus up there up:
> 
> What material is the best for building battery racks?


One inch to 1 1/2 inch by 1/8 inch angle iron is very good stuff to build racks with. Lots of steel yards have odd lengths piles. Take a list and a ruler and remember this will be under the car so it doesn't have to be pretty (although thats nice) it just has to be strong.

Look for used commercial steel shelving. The uprights are good for angle iron and the panels make good fillers. Look for auctions.

They may be harder to find now since scrap steel was $200.00 a ton reciently. But most major cities have a least one place where used and rusty steel is available. When I was a kid my firsy projects were built with material from one of those places. It a good place to shop when on a budget.

Jim


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## patzke (Nov 1, 2008)

Jim,

Thanks for the suggestions! 
I live in an airpark and have a neighbor that luckily owns a "steel shop" and creates buildings for people across the US. I'm sure he'd have some angle iron he'd be more than happy to sell to me. 

Didn't even think of that. How are batteries being strapped in? 

Would it work to make a rectangle to hold the weight of the batteries (for the bottom), and then created a second rectangle that would be strapping and holding the batteries in, or is it more convenient to strap each individual battery in?


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## Jimdear2 (Oct 12, 2008)

I think you should look through the various sites look at pictures, especially same or similar vehicles to get ideas. Hold downs design depends on available resources.

A one piece hold downs mean you have to take down the whole thing to change out one battery. Induividual hold downs means extra weight and complexity. A toss up

The only thing I can say for sure is make them strong. You sure don't want them to be sharing the front seat with you if the vehicle gets upside down or backwards. And I can tell you that the divider between trunk and pass compartment in most any vehicle isn't much.

You're young and don't think about stuff like that automatically like us old pharts.

It's worth your time to take a step back and look. The old rule about 
Measure once and cut twice
Measure twice cut once is even more important when it's your or someone else's life.

Good luck in what looks like a great project. Hope you get an A+

JIm


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## patzke (Nov 1, 2008)

Jimdear2 said:


> I think you should look through the various sites look at pictures, especially same or similar vehicles to get ideas. Hold downs design depends on available resources.
> 
> A one piece hold downs mean you have to take down the whole thing to change out one battery. Induividual hold downs means extra weight and complexity. A toss up
> 
> ...


The "old rule" was drilled into my head by my chemistry teacher last year fortunetly - and i wont lie, it's come in handy many times. 

I thank you for your concern and to be honest I have no skimped in any safety areas to day, safety is a major concern for me and this project. 

Thanks "old phart" for your sharing your wise knowledge.  I appreciate it!


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## patzke (Nov 1, 2008)

Had a day off from school today and unfortunetly with my mismatched adaptor plate i dont have too much to work on... everything is at this point is semi dependant on the trans axle and the motor being mounted in the engine compartment...

So today I was able to:
Drop gastank, fuel pump and all fuel lines
Mounted a momentary switched for my controller precharger
Mounted two switches for changing volt/ammeter output.
Cleaned the crap out of my transmission and flywheel so their touchable...

Tomorrow I hope to get my adapter plate situation straitened out.. 

Stuck for now!


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## TheSGC (Nov 15, 2007)

Your workbench is CLEAN. WOW. My workbench still has the sacrificial transmission sitting on it since I put it there back in August. And the bench is covered in ground aluminum and tranny grease from by homemade adapter plates. I had to design and build every mechanical aspect of my Civic EV from the coupler and plates to the motor mount because the EV companies wouldn't touch my autotranny. That, and my budget is probably less than your Warp9 and 600A Kelly combined...

Definitely get that plate worked out since you probably paid a pretty penny for it. 

Does your car have power brakes? If it does, you will need to get a vacuum pump. I thought I could get away without the vacuum assist, but my first test drive changed my mind real fast. Went on eBay and ordered a 12 volt Vacuum pump later that day. It took about 250lbs of force on my brakes to stop the car from 20 MPH with all that extra lead.

Keep the good work coming and the pics!


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## Bill njb (Jun 7, 2008)

I bvought a piece of that ACE hardware 1/8" angle iron. It's just folded sheet metal, and much more expensive than what the metal yards sell. (the angle is rounded and real angle iron has a sharp 90 degree edge) 
Bill


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## Jimdear2 (Oct 12, 2008)

Bill njb said:


> I bvought a piece of that ACE hardware 1/8" angle iron. It's just folded sheet metal, and much more expensive than what the metal yards sell. (the angle is rounded and real angle iron has a sharp 90 degree edge)
> Bill


 
I've seen that crap. Find a place like Tractor Supply or Quality Farm and Home or even the Big box stores and ask for hot rolled steel angle iron. 

Even most hardware stores usually have a rack of hot rolled metal angles and flats. 

I guess Ace was not the place this time.

Jim


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## patzke (Nov 1, 2008)

TheSGC said:


> Your workbench is CLEAN. WOW. My workbench still has the sacrificial transmission sitting on it since I put it there back in August. And the bench is covered in ground aluminum and tranny grease from by homemade adapter plates. I had to design and build every mechanical aspect of my Civic EV from the coupler and plates to the motor mount because the EV companies wouldn't touch my autotranny. That, and my budget is probably less than your Warp9 and 600A Kelly combined...
> 
> Definitely get that plate worked out since you probably paid a pretty penny for it.
> 
> ...



Hahah Yep, minus the roadrunner, bike seat and kleenex and crap in the background thats pretty clean.  Remodeling our house, so our "hanger" is our living space so it stays surgically clean over here - i love it. 

got the plate thing worked out. They sent me the plate pattern for the OLD warp motors... sent them an email and found out that warp has two patters - i happen to get an engine with the new patern, and an adaptor with the old.  she said she was gonna "rush" my order through EVA, but unfortunetly i think it's going to be a 2 week minimum.

For the time being i do think i'm going to have to make a cardboard mockup for my engine, so i can start making battery racks.

I do not know if i have power breaks. As far as i know i do not...



*WHAT DID EVERONE/ANYONE DO WITH THEIR OLD ICE WIRE HARNESSES in the engine compartment?*


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## TheSGC (Nov 15, 2007)

patzke said:


> *WHAT DID EVERONE/ANYONE DO WITH THEIR OLD ICE WIRE HARNESSES in the engine compartment?*


I kept my old wire harness because some connections may be needed to make the speedometer work. And about half the harness was for my automatic transmission.

You should keep your whole harness in there until your conversion is done in case there is some connections that need to be ground for your gauges to function. Then you should get a wiring schematic for your car and strip away anything that's not needed.

As for the brakes, were there any tubes going from the master brake cylinder to the engine? I tried a google search, but I can't find anything definite, but I think is does have vacuum assisted brakes.


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## patzke (Nov 1, 2008)

TheSGC said:


> I kept my old wire harness because some connections may be needed to make the speedometer work. And about half the harness was for my automatic transmission.
> 
> You should keep your whole harness in there until your conversion is done in case there is some connections that need to be ground for your gauges to function. Then you should get a wiring schematic for your car and strip away anything that's not needed.
> 
> As for the brakes, were there any tubes going from the master brake cylinder to the engine? I tried a google search, but I can't find anything definite, but I think is does have vacuum assisted brakes.



Nope there sure was nothing coming from the master cylinder. I didn't remove anything that was break related - as far as i know. Master break cylinder looks like my bug's, fairly simple.  Don't think it's got vacuum.

Yeah, the book i have has all the harnesses and schematics in the back, so i'll look at that when the time comes.

THanks, 

Nick


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## dtbaker (Jan 5, 2008)

patzke said:


> structural strength to hang 4~8 12v batteries ... I'm thinking (slotted) angle iron is what everone is using,


I would steer away from the slotted stuff as it is quite a bit weaker and the holes could start a nasty sudden collapse. plain 1x1x1/8 angle iron is great stuff, lined with sheets of 1/4 polypropylene.

I had great luck going to a local steel yard and asking for 'ends' less than 4' long which they normally scrap. I bought them by the pound for WAY less than retail at the hardware store.

You will find that construction of the racks and various brackets will take far more time than the actual wiring... and the major skill you will need is basic welding, or somebody to do it for you.


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## TheSGC (Nov 15, 2007)

I am using the standard angle iron from my local ACE and it's only $9.99 for a 4 foot section I believe. I will be buying some more today or tomorrow so I will check out the price to be sure. I have a battery rack that is holding 5 batteries and it doesn't sag one bit. 325lbs of lead on that rack and I am making another smaller rack for my final 3 batteries.

Since you have mechanical brakes, that's one less thing to worry about.


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## rfengineers (Jun 2, 2008)

So, has anyone tried using old bed frames for battery boxes? They can be had for little or no money and are quite strong (spring steel). The only down side would be the cost of all those saw blades you will burn up trying to cut the stuff.


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## DIYguy (Sep 18, 2008)

rfengineers said:


> So, has anyone tried using old bed frames for battery boxes? They can be had for little or no money and are quite strong (spring steel). The only down side would be the cost of all those saw blades you will burn up trying to cut the stuff.


G'day folks.. Regarding bed frames, the outer structural member is likely steel angle iron. The stuff sprung between them could be steel straps with some higher carbon content. Usually, there are springs attatched to the ends of these straps. The only reason I mention this is because u definitely DO NOT want to be welding what is commonly known as "spring steel". It will develop a very brittle microstructure known as martensite and will break on you like candy. Not something you want for battery racks... like I mentioned though... it is unlikely that the angle frame is steel with a high carbon equivalent. You could hit the metal with a file.. it's fairly obvious when u get into some real hard stuff.

Cheers.


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## patzke (Nov 1, 2008)

dtbaker said:


> I would steer away from the slotted stuff as it is quite a bit weaker and the holes could start a nasty sudden collapse. plain 1x1x1/8 angle iron is great stuff, lined with sheets of 1/4 polypropylene.
> 
> I had great luck going to a local steel yard and asking for 'ends' less than 4' long which they normally scrap. I bought them by the pound for WAY less than retail at the hardware store.
> 
> You will find that construction of the racks and various brackets will take far more time than the actual wiring... and the major skill you will need is basic welding, or somebody to do it for you.


Yeah, I'm expecting to have the battery racks take quite some time. I'm still debating how i want to divide the batteries. 6 in back 4 up front, 5 & 5 or 4 in back 6 up front. 

What was a main factor of battery placement for when y'all placed your batteries? Weight, obviously, anything else?


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## dtbaker (Jan 5, 2008)

patzke said:


> What was a main factor of battery placement for when y'all placed your batteries? Weight, obviously, anything else?


I had a couple constraints to work around:
- I need to retain a usable rear seat for kids
- I want to retain as much cargo space behind the rear seat as possible
- shoot for 60/40 weight distribution for fwd
- a very small engine bay to work with
- taller than normal car batteries with the us8vgchcx golf cart FLA

I ended up removing ICE front xmember and creating my own for 4, 2 more in engine bay over motor, then will hang 6 under rear seat area.... balance is good, but will require hood mod. see my site for pix....


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## patzke (Nov 1, 2008)

dtbaker said:


> I had a couple constraints to work around:
> - I need to retain a usable rear seat for kids
> - I want to retain as much cargo space behind the rear seat as possible
> - shoot for 60/40 weight distribution for fwd
> ...



I will take all those into consideration, I think i'm giong to have to do 5 and 5, just to keep the weight evened out on the vehicle.


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## Jimdear2 (Oct 12, 2008)

Patzke,

You may need to rethink your 5 and 5 arangement.

For example if you removed 500 or 600 pounds of engine and stuff from the front and 150-200 pounds fuel. tank, pump and spare tire from the rear. For every pound you add to the rear you should add 2 or 3 to the front.

You should attempt to mantain that OEM weight distribution that dtbaker recommends. That way you are less likly to need to add stronger springs and you won't change the front/rear height difference (changing that will affect alignment and handleing)

It may be that 5 and 5 will maintain this OEM weight balance, but be sure. 

Go to the EV Performance page and read the EV Safety thread. You will see what changing that balance that the car was designed around can do to you.

Jim


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## patzke (Nov 1, 2008)

Just finished off the last of aranging my new adaptor plate with KTA. I got my new adaptor ring which fits perfect this time (Thanks!) Following the directions my hub and plate came with, i'm instructed to insert key, then slide hub over. Tis' all fine and dandy and works except the key sticks out of the saft a good 1/4", which presses the hub a 1/4" off of the shaft. Do i need this space, or can i cut the key shorter... 

Cant get a picture up now, but i'll get one in the morning. Anyone run into this same problem?


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## Jimdear2 (Oct 12, 2008)

patzke,

That is probably just a length of key stock, meant to be cut to length.

Just make sure that the full length of the engagement of the hub and shaft has key in it and cut to length.

If you goof that key stock is available in just about every hardware store in the city.

Jim


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## tj4fa (May 25, 2008)

rfengineers said:


> So, has anyone tried using old bed frames for battery boxes? They can be had for little or no money and are quite strong (spring steel). The only down side would be the cost of all those saw blades you will burn up trying to cut the stuff.


I used old bed frame steel for my 3/4" plywood battery box support and the control board framing support system up front. 

I got a bunch of bed rails from the local Waterfront Mission (Goodwill-type) store for $6- and cut them down using a metal chop saw.

The battery box sits on the vehicle frame with a little rubber matting on the bottom and the box belly bands are bolted up around it and then bolted into the front radiator support frame.

I bolted up all the framing in the motor bay so that I can remove everything down to the motor if I wanted to in about 15 minutes.

I'm still playing with a plan on the rear box support framing configuration because I'm supposed to get a Tonneu cover for Christmas.


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## patzke (Nov 1, 2008)

Hello all! It's been a while since I've been on. A small bit of progress has happened- a lot today/this morning.

Progress:


engine and transmission have been mated
starting to make engine bracket, it's too heavy for the tranny to hold...
making my "custom" dash, which i'll take pictures of.
Dome lights. The car didn't have any when i bought it.
Sold the metal on my engine as scrap - got $7.20 for it at the scrap yard.
Bought my angle iron for battery racks at the same place. 50 bucks for 40 feet. Not too shabby but could have been cheaper

To DO:

engine bracket
continue dash
Battery Racks
Hang and rout high voltage conduit to rear batteries
Start finding ignition wires that i can use to run relays for starting processes


Got 1 1/2" x 1 1/2" x 1/8" angle iron, is heavy as hell though. I hope I only end up using Half of the 40 ft i bought. 

All electronics switches gauges all still need to be mounted and wired.


*Questions!!!*

A/C or no A/C!? I live in tucson, but is it worth the power consumption? I have a double ended motor, I have no knowledge about this, but would i beable to put a belt to my condensor from the other shaft of my electric motor and run the condenser with that or is that harmful for the AC system somehow... 
If I can find a way to expel heat from a box housing all my components, would it be a good or bad idea to mount box under the hood, with the all electrical components incld. controller? If I can get some fans in and out of that box, would it get too hot still with controller?
What have most of you done with any wire harnesses left over from engine removal. A lot of the wires will obviously not be being used. After you determine them useless, do you chop em and cap em, or trace them back to under the dash and disconnect them?

if anyone things A/C is kind of a waste of time in EV's let me know, and that will convince me to pull the rest of the A/C system from the car. 

I cant make a decisions on my batteries. I'm doing a 120v system. I would like to used 10x12v batteries to keep the cost a little lower. Unless theres a good economic alternative for 6v batteries. I would like to not have to spend more than $1300 max max max $1500 on my first battery pack - but we'll see how far that will go... 

Anyone have any battery they bought for around $100 and absolutely love it?

My engine i took out weighs 240 pounds. If I get 10 batteries @ 70 pounds thats already 700 lbs in just battery pack. So I already have 460 pounds of extra weight (and thats without the electric engine weight)! Holly cow!


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## dtbaker (Jan 5, 2008)

patzke said:


> would it be a good or bad idea to mount box under the hood, with the all electrical components incld. controller? If I can get some fans in and out of that box, would it get too hot still with controller?



the controller and the dc-dc are the heat sources.... get a good finned heat sink, like from heatsinkusa.com and make sure there is either aduct or fan to move air over it.



patzke said:


> if anyone things A/C is kind of a waste of time in EV's let me know, and that will convince me to pull the rest of the A/C system from the car.


I figure my commuter EV is for relatively short trips... no AC required, but its not as hot in SF as Tuscon.



patzke said:


> I cant make a decisions on my batteries. I'm doing a 120v system. I would like to used 10x12v batteries to keep the cost a little lower.


12v batteries will die quick and cost more in the long run. consider a 96v system with 8v batteries... which will allow less expensive controller and charger as well as last a lot better. The trojan t-890 or us battery us8vgchcx are good choices for FLA.


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## PatricioIN (Jun 13, 2008)

I second the idea of 8v's.. they're what I used and every conversion I've seen with 12v's has a rather low range. Also, when I considered different types of batts. the 8v's overall were the lightest pack and price (though I don't recall if I considered 12v's at all)... Mine are Interstate (US Battery) and I paid $1604 for 15 (120v) delivered with no core charge.


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## rfengineers (Jun 2, 2008)

I used 12V 155AHr FLAs. I've only put about 100 miles on the EV so far but the range seems very good and getting better as I break-in the batteries.

My batteries are US-12V-XC, 84lbs each. The pack cost me about the same as PatricioIN, also with no core charge, for 120VDC.

I mounted the DC-DC in the trunk, put the controller and heat sink in the engine compartment down low and in front of the transmission (FWD). The rest of the electronics (Contactor, fuse, various relays, step-start controller and vacuum switch are in a box mounted next to the 12V fuse box where the cranking battery used to be.

I intend on keeping the A/C. The compressor is run off a belt from the shaft on the non-drive side of the motor. I estimate the A/C will take about 2500-Watts to run. But keep in mind that the compressor does not run all the time. It cycles on and off with the system pressure, so the total reduction in range should be between 500 and 1500-Watts.

I would rather have the choice of whether to use the A/C or not rather than not have one at all. It gets Hot and Humid in the summer around these parts.


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## tcfootball (May 4, 2008)

If you have one of these canisters between your master cylinder and firewall, then you have vacuum assisted brake boost. I am planning a vw conversion also, so I will keep and eye on your setup! Good luck with your conversion!


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## patzke (Nov 1, 2008)

PatricioIN said:


> I second the idea of 8v's.. they're what I used and every conversion I've seen with 12v's has a rather low range. Also, when I considered different types of batts. the 8v's overall were the lightest pack and price (though I don't recall if I considered 12v's at all)... Mine are Interstate (US Battery) and I paid $1604 for 15 (120v) delivered with no core charge.


Yeah ive thought about that as well, I have looked into 8vs... Where did you buy your batteries, that's a good prices - shipped! Whats the model # on em? that's about the price i want to pay for a pack...


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## patzke (Nov 1, 2008)

tcfootball said:


> If you have one of these canisters between your master cylinder and firewall, then you have vacuum assisted brake boost. I am planning a vw conversion also, so I will keep and eye on your setup! Good luck with your conversion!


gggghhh i was looking at my car with my dad and came to the conclusion that i DO have vaccume breaks. 

i'll start doing my research.....


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## mrg (Dec 8, 2008)

If you haven't started the battery box yet, or even if you have but haven't mounted it yet, consider how low it will be when complete. If there is a chance of road debris hitting the leading edge (where the front of the old fuel tank was) then I would also mount some type of shield on that front wall (perhaps the sides too). Myself?? I would probably enclose the whole thing and create a vent system similar to the bilge of a boat to reduce heat and circulate fresh air.

Also, is this a hatchback model? Will emissions from the battery pack be able toget into your passenger compartment? If so, it's even more reason to enclose them and vent to the outside.


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## PatricioIN (Jun 13, 2008)

patzke said:


> Yeah ive thought about that as well, I have looked into 8vs... Where did you buy your batteries, that's a good prices - shipped! Whats the model # on em? that's about the price i want to pay for a pack...


I have an Interstate Battery warehouse about two miles from my house. They have been very good to work with so far; very helpful with info and all..

U8VGC they weigh 65lbs each.. and are 170ah I believe. There is a slightly heavier and larger ah 8v at (I think) 183ah.. but overall, I didn't want to add the weight and expense for less than 10% more capacity.


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## dtbaker (Jan 5, 2008)

the biggest capacity ones are the us8vgchcx model.... a few more AH.


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## PatricioIN (Jun 13, 2008)

dtbaker said:


> the biggest capacity ones are the us8vgchcx model.... a few more AH.


right.. biggest 8v... obviously you could get 6v with MUCH higher capacity, but then you're talking more of heavier batts.. My 120v pack weighs 975.. the high capacity 6v's would have weighed 1400lbs (but are rated at 251ah) AND I would have had to find room for 5 more batts! Sure I could have fit them all in the trunk, but I would be REALLY heavy and over it's GVWR.

Interstate deep cycles:

8v 170ah 65lbs U8vgc 
8v 183ah 69lbs U8vgcx 
6v 232ah 62lbs U2200 
6v 251ah 70lbs U2400


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## patzke (Nov 1, 2008)

mrg said:


> If you haven't started the battery box yet, or even if you have but haven't mounted it yet, consider how low it will be when complete. If there is a chance of road debris hitting the leading edge (where the front of the old fuel tank was) then I would also mount some type of shield on that front wall (perhaps the sides too). Myself?? I would probably enclose the whole thing and create a vent system similar to the bilge of a boat to reduce heat and circulate fresh air.
> 
> Also, is this a hatchback model? Will emissions from the battery pack be able toget into your passenger compartment? If so, it's even more reason to enclose them and vent to the outside.


I haven't started the battery box yet, and yes, I'm keeping that in mind - Thanks though ! I don't think I will be dropping the box into the floor at all... I will be keeping the batteries in the rear on floor level and will be enclosed in an airtight box I'm building to vent to the outside during charging. The batteries, if not enclosed, would vent into the passenger compartment, which is no good!  So an airtight box w/ vent to outside is necessary .

Thanks for the thoughts! I seriously appreciate them. 

___________________________

Build Progress:

Not much... hahah

I have installed some of the PakTrakr wiring today, Mounted and wired my charger will take pictures. Currently my hold up is my motor mount... It's taking for ever because i went on vacation with the family, just starting to get into the groove of things again, trying to get a hold of the machine shop man here in the neighbor hood to help me out. 

As soon as I get that mount built I will be able to start the front battery racks. And then essentially finish the car...  cant do anything until I finish that mount, because everything else is literally ON TOP of this mount. I think i'm going to use the this motor mount as a battery rack mount too...

I have decided to go with the 8v 170ah 65lbs U8VGC looks like its a reliable batt plenty of people have used it with great results. Not a bad price either if I can get my core charge voided where ever i buy them. 

Sorry to ramble! I'll have pictures for y'all soon! Again, thank you so much for your input in advance.


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