# 500A vs 600A Kelly controller.



## onegreenev (May 18, 2012)

With a Kelly, go for the highest rated amperage you can. Your limiting factor is both battery dischrge and limitations of the controller.


----------



## dain254 (Oct 8, 2015)

onegreenev said:


> With a Kelly, go for the highest rated amperage you can. Your limiting factor is both battery dischrge and limitations of the controller.


Completely agreed - I've been running a 96601-8080 and does more like 450-500A.


----------



## MathisLaurant (Feb 21, 2017)

dain254 said:


> Completely agreed - I've been running a 96601-8080 and does more like 450-500A.


oh really? that's not great... the one reason i am leaning to Kelly is that the controller software is free. 
for a brushless motor like the DLC-28, what controllers would to recommend?


----------



## dain254 (Oct 8, 2015)

I've only got experience with the Kelly, so I wouldn't be able to recommend one for you- just sharing what I've experienced! It does work fine so long as you keep it cool, and is easy to program!


----------



## cmcnall (Aug 12, 2015)

i have the 600A version and although they state you can change the firmware for current ramp etc they limit in firmware the acutal rate to something rather tame. I can pull 600A but cannot do wheelies. But it is a good stable controller with regen and i am not worried about burning it up.


----------



## [email protected] (Mar 21, 2017)

I'm also planning on using a DLC28 in an upcoming project. Due to the difficulty in programming a Sevcon, I too was looking at the Kelly 8080IPS controllers, and have been keeping an eye on this thread. However, the following is concerning;



cmcnall said:


> I can pull 600A but cannot do wheelies.


I've read other references regarding the lack of initial torque from Kelly controllers. Do they really fail to deliver "off the line" power? I'm planning on using the DLC28 in an electric dirtbike conversion, so immediate power delivery will be important. Any recommendations for alternatives to Kelly or Sevcon?


----------



## MathisLaurant (Feb 21, 2017)

cmcnall said:


> i have the 600A version and although they state you can change the firmware for current ramp etc they limit in firmware the acutal rate to something rather tame. I can pull 600A but cannot do wheelies. But it is a good stable controller with regen and i am not worried about burning it up.


@Cmcnall

Since you've said you've used it, just out of curiosity how much past the voltage limit can you go? so it say up to 96 volts but is there some safety factor built in to the controller. Like if my batteries get fully charged to 98-100 volts. Would the controller get damaged?

Also, could you explain what you mean by "they limit in the Firmware" Do you mean that even though I would program, for example, all power/torque available from when I twist to 100% i would not actually get that because of the Firmware version?


----------



## cmcnall (Aug 12, 2015)

MathisLaurant said:


> @Cmcnall
> 
> Since you've said you've used it, just out of curiosity how much past the voltage limit can you go? so it say up to 96 volts but is there some safety factor built in to the controller. Like if my batteries get fully charged to 98-100 volts. Would the controller get damaged?
> 
> Also, could you explain what you mean by "they limit in the Firmware" Do you mean that even though I would program, for example, all power/torque available from when I twist to 100% i would not actually get that because of the Firmware version?


in the manual it states the voltage limits, i think its about +20v more.
I charge mine to almost 99VDC.

I set my controller to 100% torque in 0.1s and it performs the same as 100% torque in 2s.
I asked kelly why this is the case and they said they limit that setting to protect the client and give better low speed control. (sigh, firmware crippled)


----------



## gunnarhs (Apr 24, 2012)

MathisLaurant said:


> I am trying to decided between these controllers to run with the DLC-28 motor I am getting second hand. The controllers are:
> 
> KLS96501-8080IPS,24V-96V,500A,Sinusoidal BLDC Motor Controller
> 
> ...


I have not experience with Kelly's BLDC-controller but generally you get the highest current at the lowest voltage, meaning the general limit is the power of the controller P = Voltage X Current. This is with most controllers I have experienced which do not give you the power - specification but only voltage range and max amperage.
The other limit is, as other users here mention, is the heat dissipation, meaning that the cooling has big effect on if you can reach/hold the max current in 0,5 or 2 seconds and hold it for up to one minute
Based on my experience with Kelly DC and Kelly Sep-Ex controllers, they do not exceed 40 kW Power and are not able to hold the max 40 kW Power for more than 20 seconds.
So in your case i would go for the 600 A controller and expect to put out 600 A maximal on motor side in the lower speed region (when the applied voltage is in the 20-50 V range). The advantage of the Kelly is that the Software is quite configurable meaning that 
you can adopt it to your vehicle type.


----------



## andy-meyer (Dec 26, 2017)

Hi there,

I have an BLD28 (Mars ME1302) Motor in an DirtBike and I have the Kelly 8080IPS KLS72701 (700A) and have the same problem with power at startup (no wheelies).

On Startup (0rpm), the power is max 50A
on more than 60~100 rpm the power is max 200A
on more than 100 rpm the power is max 500A

I still connect with kelly to fix the problem.
Regards, Andy


----------



## boekel (Nov 10, 2010)

Is that battery amps or motor amps?


----------



## andy-meyer (Dec 26, 2017)

Oh Sorry, this is battery amps


----------



## boekel (Nov 10, 2010)

Than it's completely normal, motor amps might be 500A, but rpm = voltage, so motor might get 500A at 10 volts, at battery = 50A at 100 volts (assuming a battery voltage of 100v)


----------



## andy-meyer (Dec 26, 2017)

Ok, thats an good thing. But the motor dont have the power how about 500A. I have set some Settings "TorqueSpeedKP" and now the power ist good. But I don`t understand what this parameters are ?!?

_(9)TorqueSpeedKP:SpeedPercentKpinTorqueMode.Range:0~10000_
_Factorysetis3000_
_TorqueSpeedKI:SpeedIntegralKiinTorqueMode.Range:0~500_
_Factorysetis80_
_SpeedErrLimit:SpeedErrorLimitinTorqueMode.Range:50~4000Factorysetis1000_
_These three parameters are used for PID adjustment._
_Ifyouthinktheaccelerationperformanceisveryverystrong,pleaseadjustthemtoalowervalue_
_respectively._
_
_
Thanks, Andy


----------



## gunnarhs (Apr 24, 2012)

andy-meyer said:


> Ok, thats an good thing. But the motor dont have the power how about 500A. I have set some Settings "TorqueSpeedKP" and now the power ist good. But I don`t understand what this parameters are ?!?
> 
> _(9)TorqueSpeedKP:SpeedPercentKpinTorqueMode.Range:0~10000_
> _Factorysetis3000_
> ...


Hi, here is an article which might help https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motor_constants, look at Kt and Kv. It might not be exactly the same as in your case but the basic theory is this:
You can control your motor by torque control (current control) , speed control (voltage control) or mixing both (balanced mode). The limiting factor will be the power of the system (usually the controller) P = U*I . The Kelly Specs might show something like 500A for operating Voltage 50-100V (where 50-100V is the DC input battery side and 500A is the maximal output Motor side(!), I corrected this in a previous comment).
You should expect a maximal Power of 
P(max) = MIn_Op_Voltage*Max_Motor_Amperage = 50V*500A = 25kW
(not !!! 100V*500A)
The usual behaviour is this:
A low Motor Speed you have low Motor Voltage and high Motor amperage (much torque)
as you need torque to accelerate the vehicle. Motor Voltage can be for example 20 V and Motor Amperage 400 A 
(note that Battery voltage at this is the max voltage of the pack, for example 80V, so at this time Battery amperage would be 100A)
At high Motor Speed you have high Motor Voltage and low Motor amperage (little torque) as you less torque to change speed of a running vehicle. Motor Voltage can be for example 70 V and Motor Amperage up to 110 A at this time.
By adjusting Kt (_TorqueSpeedKP) _ to higher value you should expect more aggressive acceleration. This acceleration will be limited by the BackEMF so you would possibly have to adjust Kv _(TorqueSpeedKI)_ to smooth the behaviour.
In practice this means you would have to increase Kt (_TorqueSpeedKP) _so that the vehicle will accelerate as you need from start to acceptable speed. Try to keep Kv (_TorqueSpeedKI) _as high as possible, starting with the factory value. The higher the Battery voltage, the higher Kv should be I would expect.
PS: Be sure that your controller is set to torque-control or balanced mode control!!


----------



## hallkbrdz (Jan 2, 2018)

Hmm. I was looking at possibly using the KLS96601-8080IPS with a Motenergy ME1115 to drive the motor at 96V with almost a 120V input.

As I understand it currently, admittedly mostly from looking the me1115 volt/amp/rpm charts and a reference evkart on youtube (below), I would expect to only hit around 600A if the voltage is above 96V and whatever the controller loss is at the top end of the RPM range, about 5000. Below that the amperage should be lower, not higher - right?

I may be all wet here (newbie) - so correct me if I'm wrong.

Example video with data: https://youtu.be/9iVC-Lc8a0I


----------



## gunnarhs (Apr 24, 2012)

hallkbrdz said:


> Hmm. I was looking at possibly using the KLS96601-8080IPS with a Motenergy ME1115 to drive the motor at 96V with almost a 120V input.
> 
> As I understand it currently, admittedly mostly from looking the me1115 volt/amp/rpm charts and a reference evkart on youtube (below), I would expect to only hit around 600A if the voltage is above 96V and whatever the controller loss is at the top end of the RPM range, about 5000. Below that the amperage should be lower, not higher - right?
> 
> ...


Well I do not exactly understand what the gauges in the video are showing (except the RPM). For example during driving the battery current shows zero very often???
Some of the graphs show the motor curve without load.

And also is the motor in the video the same type of motor? the gauge jumps sometimes in the 40kW-50kW region.?? 
Assume controller is running at 100V Battery voltage the battery current should be in the region 100-300A (at 50V Battery Voltage current would be 200-600A).
Most of the current is drawn during acceleration (regardless of speed) but remember it is limited by the Power of the controller/Motor (usually the controller). So if you expect 600A Battery side at 96V you expect the controller to handle almost 60kW and deliver it to a max 30kW motor. Not to talk of the battery pack needed to support this kind of power.
Edit: You will find out the limit when accelerating in higher speeds.

I myself have used 140V / 600 A Kelly controllers which were able to perform 40kW max (20 seconds) and 20kW continuously with substancial cooling. this were motors with 10kW-20kW continuous power. The maximal battery current I ever saw was about 300A. 
I would assume a 100V Kelly with same amperage to perform max 30 kW which is the right choice for the ME1115.

Here are more threads discussing this motor
http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showthread.php/ac-motor-power-amps-ac-amps-92045.html
http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showthread.php/determining-base-speed-pmac-motor-147226.html

Some chinese sayings...
If the motor looks like a pancake it will perform like a pancake
If the (LiPo) -Battery pack is named "Fire" - something it will prove its name true 
if the controller/motor costs 1000 USD or less it will perform like you build something from parts for 1000 USD or less


----------



## [email protected] (Mar 21, 2017)

andy-meyer said:


> I have an BLD28 (Mars ME1302) Motor in an DirtBike and I have the Kelly 8080IPS KLS72701 (700A) and have the same problem with power at startup (no wheelies).


That's disappointing to hear as that's the same combination I was planning. Checking on the Kelly website, I see that the KLS 8080IPS controllers now look different. Anyone have any information on the change?








[/URL]


If nobody is having any luck with Kelly, what are some alternatives? Is the Mobipus 72600 actually available for purchase anywhere?


----------



## karmawoke (11 mo ago)

[email protected] said:


> I'm also planning on using a DLC28 in an upcoming project. Due to the difficulty in programming a Sevcon, I too was looking at the Kelly 8080IPS controllers, and have been keeping an eye on this thread. However, the following is concerning;
> 
> 
> 
> I've read other references regarding the lack of initial torque from Kelly controllers. Do they really fail to deliver "off the line" power? I'm planning on using the DLC28 in an electric dirtbike conversion, so immediate power delivery will be important. Any recommendations for alternatives to Kelly or Sevcon?


ASI BAC 8000 . Check it out . 
The fkn bee's knees


----------



## onegreenev (May 18, 2012)

karmawoke said:


> ASI BAC 8000 . Check it out .
> The fkn bee's knees


Can’t be the bee’s knees unless it is a fully tested and available product. If they send me one I’ll be more than happy to review it.


----------



## Serjeo (Mar 25, 2019)

[email protected] said:


> If nobody is having any luck with Kelly, what are some alternatives?


stay away from the controller if you got a problem with, they won't help you, i mean Fany or Kelly
i have issue with KLS 8080I and they says "you have to buy a new motor or blah blah blah"
very dissatisfied with Kelly tech support.


----------



## cricketo (Oct 4, 2018)

Serjeo said:


> stay away from the controller if you got a problem with, they won't help you, i mean Fany or Kelly
> i have issue with KLS 8080I and they says "you have to buy a new motor or blah blah blah"
> very dissatisfied with Kelly tech support.


Curtis and Sevcon have even worse support - they don't even talk to non-OEMs. So what's left ?


----------



## hallkbrdz (Jan 2, 2018)

cricketo said:


> Curtis and Sevcon have even worse support - they don't even talk to non-OEMs. So what's left ?


Agreed, not much to choose from. BAC? Bamocar? ZAPI?

It is a massive issue. Not much between e-bikes and high-end $$$ controllers such as Scott Drive or Cascadia Motion.


----------



## onegreenev (May 18, 2012)

cricketo said:


> Curtis and Sevcon have even worse support - they don't even talk to non-OEMs. So what's left ?


What we need is someone who can dig in deep to the Curtis controllers. I have the full OEM abilities to change parameters and modify but I’m at the level of beginner with these AC setups. If we can dig deep we can share as anyone can buy the software. Should be able to share parameter files too but only with like controllers. I’ll be firing up my equipment shortly. My goal is to run two AC 35 motors and two 1239e controllers together.


----------



## cricketo (Oct 4, 2018)

onegreenev said:


> What we need is someone who can dig in deep to the Curtis controllers. I have the full OEM abilities to change parameters and modify but I’m at the level of beginner with these AC setups. If we can dig deep we can share as anyone can buy the software. Should be able to share parameter files too but only with like controllers. I’ll be firing up my equipment shortly. My goal is to run two AC 35 motors and two 1239e controllers together.


The thing to remember is that many Curtis controllers, like the ones you get with HPEVS motors, are flashed with a custom firmware. Even with a PC programming station you may be unable to change some parameters because they're tied into the custom firmware.


----------



## onegreenev (May 18, 2012)

I have the OEM programmer. Not just a dealer level programmer. Yes, they are flashed with custom firmware.


----------



## cricketo (Oct 4, 2018)

onegreenev said:


> I have the OEM programmer. Not just a dealer level programmer. Yes, they are flashed with custom firmware.


If you want to have a fun way of conceptualizing what I said, try setting your Throttle Type to 1, then reboot the controller, and check the Throttle Type value


----------



## AMP ADRENALINE (Nov 14, 2017)

cricketo said:


> Curtis and Sevcon have even worse support - they don't even talk to non-OEMs. So what's left ?


I am using a Curtis Controller in the XE4 Yamaha, Easier to program than the Sevcon but limited to
450 amps. I am a OEM and had these made Custom for this application from Curtis.. 1236 controllers.
If you are interested in a Curtis email me at sales at xemx1 dot com


----------

