# The Hyper-9 Thread



## 4Foxtrot (Apr 1, 2019)

@OR-Carl Thanks SO much for setting this thread up  *A place for Tips, Tricks, Experiences .. Netgain Hyper9*
(I'm still 'Newby' status or have somehow upset the gods, err mods  ). .. I'm still pretty crap on forum etiquette - if so apologies to OP @OR-Carl if the following experiences are not the correct format 🙏

Hyper9 are amazingly useful motors, controllers _and TAU software_ they are getting to be a 'go-to' by several top line EV conversion companies eg EV West, Electric Classic Cars as on 'Vintage Voltage' TV series, and Zero-EV. I chose it as it works on relatively low voltage ~100 to 130, or upto 170 for the HV version, and it is relatively light ~60Kg.

*BUT .. *do a google search and there are _*not many tips, tricks and experiences.*_
*SO ..* as this forum is much more permanent, and easy to find stuff than facebook EV groups (and their 'random' newsfeeds  ) etc.

I hope other Hyper9 users agree _*and*_ you'll add experiences (good and bad), tips, tricks and general open sharing of knowledge.

kick off, attempt 2:
I chose a Hyper9 because: it was lightish (60kg), and low voltage (125v) .. so would work with 5 Tesla Modules. I needed light as poss and approx 120bhp for a 1969 Lotus 'Elon' to match original weight (achieved with 20kg saving) and power. DC was an option but weight and lack of regen put me off .. the conversion HAD to be super light to be worth doing. 
The hyper9 is actually made in china for an Italian Co. (SME), now part of Dana TM4 automotive, Netgain are exclusive resellers and have added a standard end plate, (similar to their DC motors .. with imperial/US threads). 

FWIW I discounted other even lighter setup as: a) costs too high: even if can find a light motor eg 20Kg / 150Kw+ b) they needed an expensive controller, and only 'code it yourself' software. c) mostly 400+ Volt systems (OK but need volt or string together own batteries. d) Many leading light and powerful OEM motor companies would not even talk to me as a DIYer (even tho' I design EV's .. OK bikes  ) . I tried, several axial flux makers, YASA, TM4-MOTIVE, Phi, Emrax, Magnax, Equipmake, Swindon etc. but unless the volume was automotive scale 1000's the door was shut  

Below was 'work in progress' - motor just fitted, last year, its now _a bit _tidier 









*Problems:*
1. Controller - blew (dead !! - now alive)
With system all off - a cheap chinese main battery voltage gauge shorted and sent a spike to earth, this back tracked and took out both the prius throttle pedal and several controller circuits. I checked wiring (for the nth time) and found there was a problem in the controller. I asked local supplier and Netgain about repairs, and bottom line the shipping investigation and fixes would probably cost as much as a new controller. Also, as its a DIY item unless parts are DOA, there would be no warrantee ;-( . So bit the bullet and bought another as rest of car was just working well (and frankly I was a bit impatient !) .. £2200 lighter and the new one slotted in - fixed .
BUT out of interest (I wish I'd tried this before) - I opened the old controller and found:
*TIP: *all low voltage connections are protected by tiny surface mount fuses. I know surface mount is a challenge but with a magnifying glass and a solder fuse wire the controller was brought back from the dead !! (now a spare .. or possibly for another project). 









2. Wire colours
Maybe I got a bad loom, but I found some colours just did not match the manual - K1-21 was yellow )Not black/blue) and K1-32 was blue not white /green .

*TIPS:*
1. Calling netgain works better than emails... and Hunter is a gent, and real bundle of knowledge .. I just wish he'd add what he knows to the website/instructions 🙏
2. Use as many soldered joints as possible - more reliable than crimps (or for 'belt and braces' crimp AND solder)
3. Check wiring 3 x !!
4. Controller gets warm without cooling plate but stays cool with plate and even small water flow. Motor stays cooler than batteries when pressing on (now I've added more battery cooling)
5. Get the compact display - it adds easy control of 3 modes of regen (1 more thans a tesla !!) 
AND if you set wheel diameter to 85mm, in the TAU software the speed shown is RPM, it can show all sorts of instant temperatures, Volts, amps, etc more accessible than driving with a PC on the seat .. or .. exporting canBUS 
6. Beg Hunter for the _*OEM /dealer version*_ of the SME Tau software .. *Warning:* _you CAN kill yourself/system_ ... but at the very least it allows you to lower the frequency of the contactor to make it almost silent !!! (and adds many more useful options). I cant post the software, but HERE are the help files which show capabilities.
Some screen shots:









*Discussion / Questions / Requests*
1. Voltage sag
Working with low voltage system eg 125v vs usual 400v There can be A LOT of voltage sag under full power ... as recorded on an early test drive below shows: 










This means that although the full 800/850 Amps can be pulled, the voltage drops at ~70% SOC from ~118v to ~95v
So giving only 800a x 95v = 76kW, but without voltage sag, say at 125v / (~ 95% SOC) this would be up to 800a x 125v = 100Kw (130 BHP).
Future experiment ... use a higher pack voltage, say 144v (on the low voltage Hyper9) *but *only charge to say 90% SOC (ie just under max ~132V) to get the full 100Kw more easily.
*Thoughts ??*
(The HV motor and controller has same max KW output but at a lower current , and more battery weight) 

Below from netgain show that *IF *the voltage can be prevented from sagging and kept at 132v , then the peak output can be as much as 112kW which is pretty damn good !! 










2. Help:
Any canBUS gurus who have used Hyper9/ TAU and are willing to share experiences ? ie who can offer a drop in connection to the SME canbus output ? eg to say a bluetooth code reader ?? or other gauges / rpm temps etc. (I cheated and used the existing analogue dials  )

Sorry to go on but, overall v happy with the Hyper9 AND I'm....

*looking forward to hearing other peoples Hyper9 experiences, tips and discussions.*
Cheers,
Mark, Dorset, UK


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## OR-Carl (Oct 6, 2018)

Awesome info, Mark, Thanks! I will hopefully get my motor installed this week, and will post any tips or tricks that I come across as well. One question, does the X1 controller (low voltage version) have a precharge terminal on the controller? The X144 does according to the manufacturers specs, but it is not very thoroughly explained in the netgain manual. They dont even label it on the mechanical drawings.

From Netgain manual:








From SME literature:


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## hallkbrdz (Jan 2, 2018)

This is possibly the most information on the ACX144 I've seen in one place, especially with the software programming end. I ended up picking up a Kelly KLS14401-8080IPS for now, but if that craps out the ACX144 is really the only other choice. Subscribed...


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## 4Foxtrot (Apr 1, 2019)

OR-Carl said:


> Awesome info, Mark, Thanks! I will hopefully get my motor installed this week, and will post any tips or tricks that I come across as well. One question, does the X1 controller (low voltage version) have a precharge terminal on the controller?


Hope it goes well 👍
As for pre-charge, No x1 doesn't have that.
Also it's a bit odd: netgain and EV west / ECC don't seem to use a pre-charge resistor at all, and only 1 main contactor. Whereas most conversions use 2 contactors, and 2 precharge resistors. In my limited experience, I find less to go wrong is usually best for reliability so I went with the Netgain / EV west of 1 main HV contactor and no pre-charge resistor.
No problems with this in now 1 year of use.


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

Although this motor is known as the NetGain HyPer9, it wasn't designed by NetGain and never made by them. It and the matched controller came from another company, which has since been purchased by Dana and made part of the Dana/TM4 "electrified" division.

The DanaTM4 lineup now includes, in addition to various axles with motors (from Dana/Spicer), complete drive units, and formerly TM4 big motors, three series of relatively low-voltage motors:

_ASY_ - induction (asynchronous)
_SYR_ - synchronous reluctance
_SRI_ - "SRIPM" or synchronous reluctance/internal permanent magnet... including the HyPer9, which is in the SRI 200 range
I suspect that all three of these lines come from the same manufacturer.

DanaTM4 is not interested in sales to individuals and is unlikely to provide support, so NetGain will likely continue to be the distributor, but the ownership change may make other motor models and other inverters available.


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## 4Foxtrot (Apr 1, 2019)

brian_ said:


> The DanaTM4 lineup now includes, in addition to various axles with motors (from Dana/Spicer), complete drive units, and formerly TM4 big motors, three series of relatively low-voltage motors:
> 
> _ASY_ - induction (asynchronous)
> _SYR_ - synchronous reluctance
> ...


Yes, Dana do some interesting stuff > Electric motors | Dana TM4

The snag is Dana, along with other's in the 50 to 300Kw range, eg yasa, UQM, siemens, Zytek, AC, integral, Phi, Emrax, cascadia, BorgW. Avid etc etc .... are ALL geared to the automotive supply chain, and its quantities (and relationships). This means minimum order quantities of 1000's if not 10,000's or 'development contracts' with OEM's.
So we single vehicle developers don't normally get a look in.

I find this is short sighted as, unlike OEM automotive projects which have to be done in total secrecy (like say the the Dodge 'Circuit EV' aka Lotus Europa EV ) ... our one-off projects could showcase a motors' potential and generate a lot of shareholder PR. Sorry - off topic (Hyper9) Rant over 

Seriously - if _*anyone*_ has any insights of how to get access to some of these latest automotive motors, controllers AND software PLEASE share 🙏


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## hallkbrdz (Jan 2, 2018)

Agreed, it is painful to see companies like BW and Dana swallow up various smaller companies and put OEM only faces on them.


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

hallkbrdz said:


> Agreed, it is painful to see companies like BW and Dana swallow up various smaller companies and put OEM only faces on them.


The company which Dana purchased (the one that actually makes the motor called the "HyPer9" here) did not sell directly to consumers, so there is no change.

You can buy an HVH motor (in two different case series) from Cascadia Motion; this motor has always been made by a large corporation (originally Remy, now part of BorgWarner) primarily for OEMs (originally GM). Remy was never a small company, and always built the HVH for OEMs Other companies could offer a distribution channel like this if they wanted, but it's not generally a market segment worth pursuing.


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## HesseJames (Mar 18, 2021)

OR-Carl said:


> Awesome info, Mark, Thanks! I will hopefully get my motor installed this week, and will post any tips or tricks that I come across as well. One question, does the X1 controller (low voltage version) have a precharge terminal on the controller? The X144 does according to the manufacturers specs, but it is not very thoroughly explained in the netgain manual. They dont even label it on the mechanical drawings.
> 
> From Netgain manual:
> 
> ...


Hi Carl,

I am also in the progress of a Hyper9 build and I have the same Question. When I read the manual I was confused that Precharge is directly connected to the high Voltage of the Battery. I always thought this would be over a switched 12V Contactor source.








But looking further in the manual I saw that A1+ from the Main Contactor is connected to the B+ Precharge:








best Regards
Heiko


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## hallkbrdz (Jan 2, 2018)

Agree, that makes no sense. Precharge should run some voltage around the contactor via a resistor.

Have you called them?


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## OR-Carl (Oct 6, 2018)

Looking at the picture, though, A1+ is connected to battery positive - so they seem to be having us jump past the main contactor with a fused wire. This would leave high voltage power to the precharge terminal at all times. There is the somewhat cryptic note that for both precharge and B+ that "*This HV circuit should include proper fuses and disconnect switches." 

I think what I am going to do is use a small contactor like this one:


EV West - Electric Vehicle Parts, Components, EVSE Charging Stations, Electric Car Conversion Kits


That way I can keep HV off the controller unless the car is in the drive state. I have secondary contactors in my battery box, so I am skipping the emergency disconnect switch. I might add one if I ever need someone else to work on the truck for some reason, but if it is just me I dont really see the point. Anyway, here is what I am envisioning. I might touch base with Netgain and see what they have to say about it.


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## HesseJames (Mar 18, 2021)

That was also my idea. Having a small contactor with key switch signal. But the question remains: why did they do it at Netgain or better SME? Hope to see the answer in this thread. I am not comfortable with any high voltage permanently at the controller.


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## 4Foxtrot (Apr 1, 2019)

HesseJames said:


> That was also my idea. Having a small contactor with key switch signal. But the question remains: why did they do it at Netgain or better SME? Hope to see the answer in this thread. I am not comfortable with any high voltage permanently at the controller.


Speaking from the X1 POV (*not* X144). My understanding is that the main gigavac contactor (supplied with the Hyper9 kit) is only activated once the controller has booted up and all controller systems are 'green'. There is a 5-10A fused high voltage supply K1-24 iirc switched by *a relay* ('Key Switch HV relay' below), on 'Key On' . This doesn't scare me and it is fused.
PLUS a benefit of hyper 9 is the voltage is relatively low ~120-144v vs most 400v AC systems.

EV wests generic diagram:


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## 4Foxtrot (Apr 1, 2019)

This is a graph to compare the Hyper9 with the Lotus Twincam engine it replaced. It shows both power _and_ torque 

It also shows the effect of Battery voltage SOC _and SAG_ on power. This is Significant !!
.. hence I'm thinking for next conversion of using a higher voltage battery pack with a 90% SOC at the max voltage allowed (132v +margin) + don't charge over 90% (good for pack) and program the controller not to regen above this voltage (I love the way the Tau software allows adjustment of controller settings, _with a user interface too_ .. who actually _ likes_ lines of code ?  ).


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## hallkbrdz (Jan 2, 2018)

I do find it iteresting that these controllers have contactor control on them at all. I really see the contactor as a BMS controlled function.


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## reiderM (Dec 30, 2020)

hallkbrdz said:


> I do find it iteresting that these controllers have contactor control on them at all. I really see the contactor as a BMS controlled function.


The included contactor is designed to just power on the inverter and motor. It's a 24v/48v contactor so it can't be closed by the 12v used as auxiliary power for most conversions. Another contactor, this one 12v, controlled by the user or the BMS leading to the B+ terminal is the way to go. This is what I'll be doing.


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## OR-Carl (Oct 6, 2018)

Hey, so I am finally getting to the point where I can start wiring up my X144. I am keeping my transmission, so I am not quite sure what the best approach is to wiring k1-5 Forward and k1-6 Reverse. Does it make sense to just connect it permanently in forward, and ignore the reverse wire entirely? Also, did any of you use the interlock k1-4? If I understand correctly, this is a switch that when opened prevents the car from driving? I feel like my charger had some sort of lock-out functionality so you didnt drive away with it still plugged into the wall, but I am not sure if I am going to go to the hassle of working that out right off the bat. I would appreciate hearing from you guys who have gotten one of these up and running. Thanks!


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## ryan_w (Mar 23, 2021)

Awesome thread! 
Mark, we are doing a similar build on Porsche 912. (5) Tesla Batteries, EV West Hyper 9 Kit, AC1X controller, Dilithium BMS. Getting a a blocking fault on starting up the controller - "Driver Out 2 Open".. Driver Out 1 controls the 48V contactor, but Driver Out 2/3/4 don't do anything in our setup. Earlier versions of the Hyper9 schematic show these pins connected to similar loads (e.g Emer Brake), but latest kit doesn't even have these pins (K-27/28/29) in the 35-pin Ampseal connector. Any help greatly appreciated! -Ryan


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## reiderM (Dec 30, 2020)

OR-Carl said:


> Hey, so I am finally getting to the point where I can start wiring up my X144. I am keeping my transmission, so I am not quite sure what the best approach is to wiring k1-5 Forward and k1-6 Reverse. Does it make sense to just connect it permanently in forward, and ignore the reverse wire entirely? Also, did any of you use the interlock k1-4? If I understand correctly, this is a switch that when opened prevents the car from driving? I feel like my charger had some sort of lock-out functionality so you didnt drive away with it still plugged into the wall, but I am not sure if I am going to go to the hassle of working that out right off the bat. I would appreciate hearing from you guys who have gotten one of these up and running. Thanks!


Just a thought, don't do anything permanent yet unless you're sure which way the driven transmission shaft is designed to spin. Forward for the motor could be the opposite of the direction that the crankshaft spun.

Transmissions aren't designed to be spun in the opposite direction. That doesn't mean that it's necessarily an issue, but it could be, so I'll be leaving mine in forward and just using the reverse gear. The gear ratio for the reverse gear is typically a bit higher than 1st gear as well.


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## ryan_w (Mar 23, 2021)

ryan_w said:


> Awesome thread!
> Mark, we are doing a similar build on Porsche 912. (5) Tesla Batteries, EV West Hyper 9 Kit, AC1X controller, Dilithium BMS. Getting a a blocking fault on starting up the controller - "Driver Out 2 Open".. Driver Out 1 controls the 48V contactor, but Driver Out 2/3/4 don't do anything in our setup. Earlier versions of the Hyper9 schematic show these pins connected to similar loads (e.g Emer Brake), but latest kit doesn't even have these pins (K-27/28/29) in the 35-pin Ampseal connector. Any help greatly appreciated! -Ryan
> View attachment 122161


 **UPDATE - was a firmware issue.. installed latest version and it's not looking for the other 'driver outs' - got hte motor spinning the wheels for first time this morning!


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## HesseJames (Mar 18, 2021)

OR-Carl said:


> Hey, so I am finally getting to the point where I can start wiring up my X144. I am keeping my transmission, so I am not quite sure what the best approach is to wiring k1-5 Forward and k1-6 Reverse. Does it make sense to just connect it permanently in forward, and ignore the reverse wire entirely? Also, did any of you use the interlock k1-4? If I understand correctly, this is a switch that when opened prevents the car from driving? I feel like my charger had some sort of lock-out functionality so you didnt drive away with it still plugged into the wall, but I am not sure if I am going to go to the hassle of working that out right off the bat. I would appreciate hearing from you guys who have gotten one of these up and running. Thanks!


I am asking similar questions myself . I am at the same point of my conversion. Regarding forward/reverse; it is only two additional wires to a switch - but it will also include wiring the backup lights. I am also using my original gearbox so I will short forward wire. I will leave some wires as spare in my loom anyway - so if I change my mind later it can be done. Interlock will be used for Emergency switch and Charger. It is mandatory here for legal conversion as well as a buzzer for ignition-on when any door is open. Some people also connect inertia switch in case of a crash to disconnect. One thing I am not sure of is Cable #30 Deceleration Lights - does it mean a brake light signal when regen mode is activated, and it says "must be assigned" - does that mean you configure it in the software when the brake light in regen mode show up?? Are you using the x144 display? I find the display is not really designed well. Why don't they simply provide a small display and a square frame to mount? I have a BMS display and controller display, a Voltmeter, Emergency Switch, 2 Position Switch for Regen-mode (I use an original Switch from the heated back-window that has two positions). So that's all there is for me.
Cheers

Heiko


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## OR-Carl (Oct 6, 2018)

Good points all around - I will probably wire forward and interlock with spade terminals so I can easily tie them into other systems down the road. A motor kill switch is not a bad idea. I am planning on leaving all the unused wires intact - I will probably route them out of the way and just tape over their ends. Some of them might be useful down the road if I want to add functionality. 

k1-30 is a bit of a mystery to me too. It is not clear if they are saying you must wire it; or if in order to use it, you must make some changes on the software side of things? If anyone has asked Netgain about it, I would love to hear their explanation. 

I decided against using the display, as I also have a little BMS read-out and an amp meter to give me a basic idea of how much power I am using. I will have to play around with the regen settings, and wire up at least one extra profile to a switch.


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## reiderM (Dec 30, 2020)

I doubt you have to wire it. It will probably push out voltage thru it as long as you have regen enabled (even if only minor regen). Your choice if you want it to power the brake lights. 

For mine, the brake lights are activated by a button that is pressed when the brake pedal is pressed. I'll probably add some sort of tiny 12v motor to press it when the car is braking regeneratively.


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## HesseJames (Mar 18, 2021)

How do you all deal with the RS232 Serial Port? I am planning to use a Serial to Bluetooth Adapter, so I do not have to fiddle around with cables in the car to check or program the controller. Has anybody else been doing this?


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## ryan_w (Mar 23, 2021)

HesseJames said:


> How do you all deal with the RS232 Serial Port? I am planning to use a Serial to Bluetooth Adapter, so I do not have to fiddle around with cables in the car to check or program the controller. Has anybody else been doing this?


RS232 to USB is pretty common and cables included in most motor kits. Wireless RS232 would be cool, let me know how it turns out!


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## 4Foxtrot (Apr 1, 2019)

ryan_w said:


> **UPDATE - was a firmware issue.. installed latest version and it's not looking for the other 'driver outs' - got hte motor spinning the wheels for first time this morning!


Great - good feeling eh !! a 912 is on my dream list of next conversions (along with a Formula Ford 1600 single seater, an MX5 NC folding hardtop and a Lotus 23 replica).
FWIW I left the serial plugged in permanently, with the USB adapter wired thro to the glove box inside the car, there are SO many things to tweak in the TAU software, I even used to carry a spare laptop. 

As for checking wire functions like forward, reverse, etc etc before hooking upto rotary switch.
I worried that some of the wires and connections were wrongly coloured and labeled. What helped (_and helped me understand  _) was to layout the wires for easy connecting with a jumper wire eg to ground. All before fully soldering connections - and making the whole lot neat and tidy..


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## 4Foxtrot (Apr 1, 2019)

I'm not sure if this link to FaceBook 'EV Conversions' Group will work but here goes > EV Conversions : Whats the best electric motor option for an EV conversions that is more powerful than a Hyper9 and less powerful than Tesla small drive unit 

Someone thinks there may be a new Hyper9 upgrade due: (below along with some musings) 









Its a FB group by Zero EV - but like all FB its a news feed so hard to find stuff later (Unlike HERE )


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## reiderM (Dec 30, 2020)

That would be big if true. Asked him who told him about a new Hyper 9, we'll see how it goes.

I almost want him to be wrong. I just bought my hyper 9!


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

4Foxtrot said:


> Someone thinks there may be a new Hyper9 upgrade due...


NetGain never built the HyPer 9 - they just selected a variant of the motor line from SME for NetGan to distribute under their own branding. Since then, Dana bought SME and so this motor is now a Dana TM4 product. There are already multiple motors in the SRI 200 product line; I suppose that it is possible that NetGain is considering distributing more of them.


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## Tremelune (Dec 8, 2009)

Does anyone know what the continuous maximum RPM of this motor is? I see it listed as 6,500 as often as 8,000. Like, if I were to hit max RPM on the highway and then just cruise like that for an hour...is that 8,000...?

With regard to voltage sag, isn't that 100% based on the battery capabilities and gauge/quality? Like, if you were to take most of a Tesla/Bolt pack and wire it for low voltage to match the Hyper9, wouldn't that keep sag to a minimum?


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

Tremelune said:


> Does anyone know what the continuous maximum RPM of this motor is? I see it listed as 6,500 as often as 8,000. Like, if I were to hit max RPM on the highway and then just cruise like that for an hour...is that 8,000...?


All of NetGain's "sales sheets" for the all variants of the HyPer 9 say maximum 8,000 RPM, but they don't claim that for continuous duty. The performance data for both regular and high voltage versions goes to 7,200 RPM, and that's just the highest-speed data point - there's no indication that it can't spin faster.

I have never seen data specific to this motor from the manufacturer (SME, now Dana TM4), except in the manuals reprinted by NetGain.

Current (and resulting torque and power) ratings for any motor are time-dependent due to overheating in continuous operation, but the only reason for speed to have a time dependence would be if there are bearing issues.

Peak power is between 4,000 and 6,000 RPM (at the test voltages used by NetGain), so perhaps the 6,500 RPM specification (where ever that comes from, perhaps Electric GT) is intended to be the top of the useful speed range. I see no problem with planning for motor speed at peak road speed to be higher than the speed at which peak power is available, as long as you don't need that peak power to reach that speed.


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

Tremelune said:


> With regard to voltage sag, isn't that 100% based on the battery capabilities and gauge/quality? Like, if you were to take most of a Tesla/Bolt pack and wire it for low voltage to match the Hyper9, wouldn't that keep sag to a minimum?


Yes.

To minimize the need to reconfigure modules, to run modules in parallel, or to use parallel strings, the ideal source modules would be from the highest-capacity pack possible, and the higher-voltage HyPer 9 version should be used. For instance, for a HyPer 9HV running on one-third of full pack voltage, you could have 33 kWh from a 100 kWh pack just by using the appropriate number of modules in parallel, but only 20 kWh from a 60 kWh pack. Sag will depend on the total energy capacity of battery, and the ability of the cells to deliver at high rates relative to their capacity.

Also, you don't actually have to limit the pack voltage to match the motor, only to match the controller. The motor will only get the voltage that the controller allows. Of course if you are using a HyPer 9 with the packaged X1 controller, that means you are limited by the AC-X144, presumably to 144 volts but perhaps higher; Thunderstruck lists it as "90-184v Actual", and the manual lists it as 180 V. At (for example) 4.1 V/cell, 180 V would be a 43S cell combination; four of the 10S Bolt modules (25 kWh) or seven Model S/X modules (44 kWh) would work.


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## reiderM (Dec 30, 2020)

I'll be running 10 tesla model s 5.2 kwh modules in mine. 5s2p configuration. I don't think I'll see any significant voltage sag under load with a second paralleled string, considering that most people use just 5 modules and it works without sag that is too severe. 

Tesla modules are well engineered and have a pretty high discharge rate.


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## peterbrad (Jul 7, 2020)

4Foxtrot said:


> @OR-Carl Thanks SO much for setting this thread up  *A place for Tips, Tricks, Experiences .. Netgain Hyper9*
> (I'm still 'Newby' status or have somehow upset the gods, err mods  ). .. I'm still pretty crap on forum etiquette - if so apologies to OP @OR-Carl if the following experiences are not the correct format 🙏
> 
> Hyper9 are amazingly useful motors, controllers _and TAU software_ they are getting to be a 'go-to' by several top line EV conversion companies eg EV West, Electric Classic Cars as on 'Vintage Voltage' TV series, and Zero-EV. I chose it as it works on relatively low voltage ~100 to 130, or upto 170 for the HV version, and it is relatively light ~60Kg.
> ...


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## peterbrad (Jul 7, 2020)

4Foxtrot said:


> @OR-Carl Thanks SO much for setting this thread up  *A place for Tips, Tricks, Experiences .. Netgain Hyper9*
> (I'm still 'Newby' status or have somehow upset the gods, err mods  ). .. I'm still pretty crap on forum etiquette - if so apologies to OP @OR-Carl if the following experiences are not the correct format 🙏
> 
> Hyper9 are amazingly useful motors, controllers _and TAU software_ they are getting to be a 'go-to' by several top line EV conversion companies eg EV West, Electric Classic Cars as on 'Vintage Voltage' TV series, and Zero-EV. I chose it as it works on relatively low voltage ~100 to 130, or upto 170 for the HV version, and it is relatively light ~60Kg.
> ...


Great thread! all a bit technical, but interesting none the less. I'm thinking of using a dual hyper 9 set up for my conversion, so this thread is ideal to follow.


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## peterbrad (Jul 7, 2020)

Great thread! all a bit technical, but interesting none the less. I'm thinking of using a dual hyper 9 set up for my conversion, so this thread is ideal to follow.
Peter UK.


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## reiderM (Dec 30, 2020)

Alright I've got a bit of a technical question for the more experienced.

Across the range of input voltages, the torque at 0 RPM is identical. But the peak kW output is less when running on lower voltage (to be expected V x A = W, less V = less W). This is because the torque drops off much sooner at lower voltages. Why does a decrease in voltage cause this?

72v input

108v input

132v input


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

reiderM said:


> Alright I've got a bit of a technical question for the more experienced.
> 
> Across the range of input voltages, the torque at 0 RPM is identical. But the peak kW output is less when running on lower voltage (to be expected V x A = W, less V = less W). This is because the torque drops off much sooner at lower voltages. Why does a decrease in voltage cause this?
> 
> ...


The current under 2,500 RPM is identical in all of them, because that is the controller's limit - nothing directly to do with the motor, but this may be set to the motor's rated current limit. The NetGain sales sheets list "current" (not peak, or continuous; not specified as DC link or motor, and if it is motor not specified as peak-to-peak or RMS) as 750 amps. Since the current (which is specified as motor current) is the same in each case and as speed increases, the torque is the same.

The voltage required to push this constant current increases approximately linearly with speed (as it should in any permanent magnet motor), and you can see this (noted in the data table as Vrms, which should be VRMS) in all three sets of data. By 2,400 RPM that has reached about 49 volts. The required voltage is the total of the small voltage required to overcome wire resistance and the back electromotive force resulting from rotating the magnetic field of the rotor through the current-carrying stator windings.

The data labelled "Vrms" is the root mean squared value of the voltage across each phase of the power supplied to the motor. The peak-to-peak phase voltage that the inverter can produce is equal to the voltage of the DC link (battery voltage, 72 V, 108 V, or 132 V in this case), and the RMS voltage is the peak-to-peak voltage divided by the square root of two (or multiplied by 0.707), so the system becomes limited by DC link voltage when the motor phase voltage reaches about:
50.9 V (for 72 V input) @ 2400 RPM​76.4 V (for 108 V input) @ 3600 RPM​93.3 V (for 132 V input) @ 4800 RPM​The actual voltage is not quite proportional to speed because a component of it is the voltage required to overcome resistance, and the speeds found in this test are not exact because the data is only recorded at 1200 RPM intervals.

From the point that this voltage is reached, which is often called the "knee" of the torque curve, the motor voltage remains constant so as speed increases, and more of the available voltage is needed to overcome back EMF for a given current, so less less current can flow.

In the top part of the speed range, current (and thus torque) drops rapidly with speed and so power drops as well. This starts at:
3600 RPM for 72 V input​6000 RPM for 108 V input​6000 RPM for 132 V input​This is normal high-speed behaviour.

The interesting portion is between the knee and the beginning of the high-speed region.
2400 to 3600 RPM for 72 V input (~ 60 kW)​3600 to 6000 RPM for 108 V input (~ 90 kW)​4800 to 6000 RPM for 132 V input (~ 112 kW)​In this region, motor voltage and current are both constant (meaning that motor power is constant), so for approximately constant efficiency torque must be dropping inversely with speed (y=1/x curve), and it does. This is normally a controller-limited behaviour (limiting motor current to result in constant power), rather than a motor characteristic. I can't explain how a constant current equates to a changing torque, and I wonder about how the data values are obtained.



The short answer is that the speed that the torque starts dropping off is determined by how much voltage the controller can supply to the motor to overcome back EMF, and the motor voltage is limited by the DC link voltage.


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## 4Foxtrot (Apr 1, 2019)

My practical tests match Brian's theory.
The torque falls off rapidly after 5-6000, and although it can rev to ~8000 there is no point.
It helps to have had a gearbox to experiment with - I would have hated to have made the assumption that the whole rev range is useful.
Bottom line: enjoy the torque from zero, to avoid using lower ice gears, - I use gears 3 and 4 (top) mostly (and only 1 & 2nd for, well being silly  )


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

4Foxtrot said:


> ... to avoid using lower ice gears, - I use gears 3 and 4 (top) mostly (and only 1 & 2nd for, well being silly  )


The efficiency is poor at low motor speed, which is expected. For most efficient operation, you should start in the lowest gear which can be used for any significant time, and shift up only when the resulting motor speed after the shift is at least 1500 RPM. 3rd and 4th gears would be appropriate... but only at high enough speed. This might be hard to do, for anyone accustomed to maximizing engine efficiency by keeping the engine speed as low as possible.

To really understand what motor speed to use, performance data over the range of loads would be required - the data provided by NetGain is only for full load. More complete efficiency maps are published for many motors, including some version of the same motor family as the HyPer 9. The map in the NetGain sales sheet for the HyPer 9 came from SME, and is (deliberately) without a power scale so actual values are not available, but it does show that even at moderate loads the ideal motor speed is not the lowest possible; optimal efficiency is at roughly 1/3 load and 2,000 RPM, and efficiency dives rapidly as speed drops below about 1200 RPM at any load.

Regardless of efficiency, the HyPer 9 is only rated for something like 3,300 RPM continuously - something else to keep in mind when choosing gearing. In the efficiency map, the HyPer 9 favours operation below the midpoint of its speed range, which seems unfortunate for a vehicle with a fixed gear ratio: if you gear to run 6,000 RPM at 100 km/h (60 mph), then you're out of the peak efficiency range when over 50 km/h (30 mph) - which means most of the time for most drivers - and you're over the continuous speed rating as soon as you get off of a residential street.

The Nissan Leaf map is widely published. The best point at full power is around 6,0000 RPM (more than halfway up that motor's speed range); at lower power levels the optimal speed rises with power, and would be as low as 1,500 RPM... but only for about 4 kW.


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## peterbrad (Jul 7, 2020)

Great post, though, I'm still trying to get my head around these power graphs.


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## 4Foxtrot (Apr 1, 2019)

I found this graph useful ..


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

4Foxtrot said:


> I found this graph useful ..


Yes, that's what I mentioned:


brian_ said:


> To really understand what motor speed to use, performance data over the range of loads would be required - the data provided by NetGain is only for full load. More complete efficiency maps are published for many motors, including some version of the same motor family as the HyPer 9. *The map in the NetGain sales sheet for the HyPer 9*...


Note: that's the map in the sales sheet. It is from the HyPer 9 manufacturer and for the series of motors which includes the HyPer 9, but may not be correct for the specific motor branded as the HyPer 9 by NetGain.


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## 4Foxtrot (Apr 1, 2019)

Electric Classic Cars have just done a large mercedes conversion using dual hyper9's

__
http://instagr.am/p/CNvEpefnaM8/
interesting as their normal 'go to' for heavy cars is a Tesla LDU, with a Damian Maguire/ zero-ev inverter board. Advantage of former is can be used with normal diff rather than whole transaxle.


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## HesseJames (Mar 18, 2021)

Hello all,

I am about to wire my cotroller; following question: which wires from the 35 Pin should be fused? Any other than Key Switch In?


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## 4Foxtrot (Apr 1, 2019)

I Used the EV west diagram as a starting point https://evwest.com/support/Hyper 9 Kit Schematic.pdf and guide for fuses. 
There are a few people who prefer more Contactors (eg in both + and - sides of the battery), with bypass resistors. But based on running my 1st conversion, less is more, and KISS  
Less to go wrong, fewer connections to corrode.


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## HesseJames (Mar 18, 2021)

I am aware of this diagramm and it is not the HV Area that worries me; I use single contactor and fused each battery pack. I am worried because the manual of the Hyper ß controller says nothing about fusing the low voltage circuits from the 35 PIN cable. I think at least the key swich 12V Input signal should be fused.


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## 4Foxtrot (Apr 1, 2019)

HesseJames said:


> I am aware of this diagramm and it is not the HV Area that worries me; I use single contactor and fused each battery pack. I am worried because the manual of the Hyper ß controller says nothing about fusing the low voltage circuits from the 35 PIN cable. I think at least the key switch 12V Input signal should be fused.


Yes fair question, apart from the 20A fuse on keyswitch (I use 15A) there are few others on the 12v side. A spike on these low voltage circuits can blow the internal surface mount fuses in the controller (as happened to me as above). But this was a failure of a cheap meter which linked into* both* HV and LV systems - always a danger point to be avoided (hindsight is wonderful !). I haven't added any more fuses, as these are all failure points. But the mainly existing 12v vehicle system is well fused. I guess a 'risk analysis' helps - I've tried to avoid any unnecessary fuse that if failed would leave me stranded, say on a level crossing (YES this DID happen  ... on my 1st EV a smart car conversion). Otherwise think of the implications of shorts or failures, and associated risks in your car.
Its a balance:
Too many fuses etc = added complication and potential failure points.
Too few and in the (unlikely) event of a part or wire shorting what would the consequential damage/cascading errors and their costs ?
Sorry I dont have a rule for all.
.. anyone else ??


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## HesseJames (Mar 18, 2021)

I also think it is ok to fuse the keyswitch input, because it is the only circuit facing the 12 V system of the car. All other cables from the controller are more or less "switches" to be shorted to chassis ground. I wasn't sure about the 5V + cables to the throttle and motor but I think they will be handeld ith an internal error in the controller and not destroy anything.


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## OR-Carl (Oct 6, 2018)

I would agree that simply fusing the 12v input would make sense (if you look at the wiring diagram on page 6, it does show a fuse on that wire for the x144). I found the manual to be pretty easy to follow for the wiring, but I wish it would have included more details about the software setup side of things. 

@4Foxtrot, I wanted to ask you about setting up regen. That link with all the controller functions was helpful to read over, but I seem to have missed where the section on regen is. Do you remember if it is in the traction settings, or somewhere in with the motor settings? Rainy weather is returning, so I am hoping I will have some time to mess with it some more soon. I want to set it up for single-pedal driving as I do not have a brake pedal transducer on my truck.


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## poloLbricolo (Apr 1, 2019)

Any one has had success with can bus communications ? I'm using an Orion 2 BMS ans trying to comunicate discharge and charge current limit to the SME. 
The goal is for the SME to reduce power according to BMS calculations, that way the BMS doesn't open the battery contactors under load (wich is bad).


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## pat_t (Dec 23, 2018)

Good thread! Signing in and introducing myself. I'm building a rear wheel drive Mini Minus (fibreglass mini) Hyper9 EV in the UK. To follow the build you simply need to follow the hastag #e_minus on Instagram, or follow user account patroclueus

My build differs a bit in that I'm going air-cooled on the X1 controller and battery pack. Going for 10x LG Chem 2.6kwh modules for 26kwH total (as-per ZeroEV's MX5). Hoping for even lighter than 4Foxtrot's Lotus, target 500kg! Direct drive to a Mazda RX8 LSD. Top speed will only be about 80-85mph.

My first question is regarding regen calibration - has anyone tried brake pedal pressure map for regen? This is how I plan to run my regen as I know the hardware and software supports it, I just haven't seen it implemented yet..? I will be installing a 0-5V pressure transducer in the brake circuit.

I also plan to use a CanBus display from ZeroEv so interested in poloLbricolo's question too!


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## HesseJames (Mar 18, 2021)

Has anybody tried to connect the original Tachometer to the Hyper9? I read about a EV West Tach Driver for the Netgain controller but cannot find anything about it on EV West. Tach is Porsche 911 with +/-/Signal wire. Found this: https://milodarling.me/projects/tach-driver/manual.pdf
But no more.


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## MoonUnit (Jun 29, 2019)

poloLbricolo said:


> Any one has had success with can bus communications ? I'm using an Orion 2 BMS ans trying to comunicate discharge and charge current limit to the SME.


Hi - bad news I am afraid. I wanted to do exactly the same, and use Orion BMS to limit discharge and regen depending on battery temperature. Netgain have been trying to make it work with Ewert systems (who make Orion) but haven't been able to do it. I've been pestering them for over a year.


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## MoonUnit (Jun 29, 2019)

HesseJames said:


> I also think it is ok to fuse the keyswitch input, because it is the only circuit facing the 12 V system of the car. All other cables from the controller are more or less "switches" to be shorted to chassis ground. I wasn't sure about the 5V + cables to the throttle and motor but I think they will be handeld ith an internal error in the controller and not destroy anything.


I fuse key switch in (pin 24 on the low voltage system) with a 10A fuse. NONE of the controller cables should be grounded to the chassis. The ground wire is K1 or K12, within the controller wiring loom.


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## OR-Carl (Oct 6, 2018)

MoonUnit said:


> I fuse key switch in (pin 24 on the low voltage system) with a 10A fuse. NONE of the controller cables should be grounded to the chassis. The ground wire is K1 or K12, within the controller wiring loom.


Yes, for the X1 Controller. However, the X144 (high voltage) controller is connected to the auxiliary battery, so by default it is grounded to the chassis, unless you have completely isolated your 12v system. This is I think the major difference between the two controllers, in most other regards they are the same.


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## HesseJames (Mar 18, 2021)

I am confused with all that cryptic grounds on the X144. First I connected Pin1 to Ground. Then there are several other grounds in the loom. To do nothing wrong I bridged all switches to Ground 1 instead of chassis. Now I see that all Ground connections can be chassis? I am confused about the diagrams in the manual. Also the function of the configurable digital outputs is not described very well. Because there is nothing to ground. Instead you drive a relay to switch the according function you select and configure in the software. It is all described very short.


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## MoonUnit (Jun 29, 2019)

HesseJames said:


> I am confused with all that cryptic grounds on the X144. First I connected Pin1 to Ground. Then there are several other grounds in the loom. To do nothing wrong I bridged all switches to Ground 1 instead of chassis. Now I see that all Ground connections can be chassis? I am confused about the diagrams in the manual. Also the function of the configurable digital outputs is not described very well. Because there is nothing to ground. Instead you drive a relay to switch the according function you select and configure in the software. It is all described very short.


I didn't ground anything in the ACX1 harness to the chassis, I kept it all 'internal' to the controller. So, for example, K5 (forward) can be connected via a switch to K1, I/O Ground. If so, it puts the motor in forward mode. If you connect K6 to K1, it would put motor in reverse.

If you are using the analogue inputs (say for throttle) you take 5V from K35, the throttle's wiper position to pin K11 and use K12 for ground wire. 

As I understand it, K1 is used for 'digital' grounds, ie switches, and K12 is for analogue grounds like throttle. Whether there is difference between K1 and K12, I don't know.

When you configure the deceleration lights, it works by taking 12V from K10 to one side of a relay coil, and K30 for the other. K30 is actively pulled low to ground to enable the relay. ie, it's switched by grounding. The relay coil is galvanically isolated from the car's 12V system since I am keeping the ACX1 totally unconnected to the chassis, which I think is safer.


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## reiderM (Dec 30, 2020)

Yes, on the X1 at least I don't believe any of the wires in the wiring harness are directly grounded to the chassis. Even 12v ones which could be grounded with no issues. I believe they all return to the controller and then there is a single grounding lead for 12v.


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## MoonUnit (Jun 29, 2019)

reiderM said:


> ... there is a single grounding lead for 12v.


Not in my case, I keep the controller and HV entirely separate from the chassis, and I'm pretty sure that's how Netgain expect you to wire it, but I am happy to be corrected if I'm wrong.


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## agmatthews (Oct 5, 2018)

Can anyone tell me what size fuse to use on the X-144 controller precharge circuit?
There is almost no mention of this in the Netgain (or Dana TM4) documentation, apart from it appearing on the wiring diagrams. What would be the maximum expected current on this precharge circuit?

this one:


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## OR-Carl (Oct 6, 2018)

agmatthews said:


> Can anyone tell me what size fuse to use on the X-144 controller precharge circuit?


Yeah, the instructions that come with this setup are a little lacking. I dont think that the current drawn by the precharge is very much, and it is almost certainly very short-duration (so even an undersized fuse would probably not blow). I just put a fuse that would protect the wire in case of a short. I want to say I wired it with 12 awg, so I put a 20A fuse in there. There is not really much to be gained by putting in a tiny wire, and there is not really any harm in putting in a smaller fuse if it carries the load.


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## HesseJames (Mar 18, 2021)

Does anybody know if I can change coil voltage in X144 settings to 48 Volts? Is this possible in the OEM Vendor Software Version?


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## 4Foxtrot (Apr 1, 2019)

FWIW, I added a few more help and in-use pictures of the settings in TAU/SME software > Meet Google Drive – One place for all your files
Found this useful for setting Profiles for regen > Lotus Elon - Electric 1969 Lotus Elan S4


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## 4Foxtrot (Apr 1, 2019)

HesseJames said:


> Does anybody know if I can change coil voltage in X144 settings to 48 Volts? Is this possible in the OEM Vendor Software Version?


Not sure if this helps, 
but On the OEM software the voltage % sets the voltage eg I tried experiment below by inputting random 96% > 96v and likewise Hold % eg 33% > 33v (up to 100v, at least on my 120V clone).


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## HesseJames (Mar 18, 2021)

4Foxtrot said:


> FWIW, I added a few more help and in-use pictures of the settings in TAU/SME software > Meet Google Drive – One place for all your files
> Found this useful for setting Profiles for regen > Lotus Elon - Electric 1969 Lotus Elan S4


Hi Mark, 
when I try to access the Google Drive it says I need to ask for access. When I try to send the message it says delivery failed. Is there a trick to access the page?
BR Heiko


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## HesseJames (Mar 18, 2021)

It's ok now, I did log-off - log on, and the message was sent,


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## 4Foxtrot (Apr 1, 2019)

HesseJames said:


> Hi Mark,
> when I try to access the Google Drive it says I need to ask for access. When I try to send the message it says delivery failed. Is there a trick to access the page?
> BR Heiko


Should be OK now - access for all


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## OR-Carl (Oct 6, 2018)

Hey, I worked a little bit on my truck again today, and I was curious about what you guys are doing for cooling on the controller/motor. @4Foxtrot you have liquid cooling on the controller and just airflow from the cars motion for the motor, is that right? I know the controller will derate itself at like 80C, but what sort of temperatures are you seeing on your smartview software during normal driving?


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## HesseJames (Mar 18, 2021)

I only use air cooling. The controller is in an aluminum box that has two vents. On the Bottom of the box there is a cooling plate with thermal grease. The box is in the back of the car above the motor. I will see how temperature behaves and if I need liquid cooling.


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## 4Foxtrot (Apr 1, 2019)

OR-Carl said:


> Hey, I worked a little bit on my truck again today, and I was curious about what you guys are doing for cooling on the controller/motor. @4Foxtrot you have liquid cooling on the controller and just airflow from the cars motion for the motor, is that right? I know the controller will derate itself at like 80C, but what sort of temperatures are you seeing on your smartview software during normal driving?


Driving a light weight car in the UK (say 10c to 25c) I find the controller needs cooling (ie water) but not the motor. I'll check temps when next out in it.


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## pat_t (Dec 23, 2018)

This is the underside of my Mini, showing the motor and heatsink for the controller in airflow. I stuck the heatsink to the X1 with the same thermal pads that ZeroEV use for their battery cooling plates. Hopefully it's ok for a very light car. 🙂


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## 4Foxtrot (Apr 1, 2019)

pat_t said:


> This is the underside of my Mini, showing the motor and heatsink for the controller in airflow. I stuck the heatsink to the X1 with the same thermal pads that ZeroEV use for their battery cooling plates. Hopefully it's ok for a very light car. 🙂


Fascinating, Pat  have you got a build Log, instagram or web page to show more ? #britsloveEVs


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## pat_t (Dec 23, 2018)

4Foxtrot said:


> Fascinating, Pat  have you got a build Log, instagram or web page to show more ? #britsloveEVs


patroclueus on instagram, follow the hashtag #e_minus to see all the posts related to the build


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## MoonUnit (Jun 29, 2019)

OR-Carl said:


> Hey, I worked a little bit on my truck again today, and I was curious about what you guys are doing for cooling on the controller/motor. @4Foxtrot you have liquid cooling on the controller and just airflow from the cars motion for the motor, is that right? I know the controller will derate itself at like 80C, but what sort of temperatures are you seeing on your smartview software during normal driving?


Hi - I run liquid cooling through the controller chill plate and I would say it definitely needs it. It runs about 25-30C with the cooling in place and fluctuates noticeably with driving style. I don't cool the motor (not even sure how you would do it).


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## poloLbricolo (Apr 1, 2019)

I'm back at it trying to limit the max current my X1 is alowed to take. I've done a small prototype board with isolated can buses and now the X1 can see a torque limit by analog input.
Problem is understanding the relation between DC amps and torque. As far as i can see, the DC curent increases with speed.
Anyone has done that before ?



MoonUnit said:


> Hi - I run liquid cooling through the controller chill plate and I would say it definitely needs it. It runs about 25-30C with the cooling in place and fluctuates noticeably with driving style. I don't cool the motor (not even sure how you would do it).


You don't cool the motor ? on my mx5 cooling the motor is absolutely neccesary or i get stuck motor over 130°C when a hill apears. 
I got EVeurope liquid cooling kit and now i run at 60-70°C on the same hill.
For the SME i've got a piece of aluminium heatsink and a fan, it run about 30-35°C

Is your field weakening enabled ? what does this do ?


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## MoonUnit (Jun 29, 2019)

poloLbricolo said:


> I'm back at it trying to limit the max current my X1 is alowed to take. I've done a small prototype board with isolated can buses and now the X1 can see a torque limit by analog input.


I'd be interested to know what you did there - are you taking DCL and CCL levels from the Orion over CAN and converting them to voltage levels for the X1 analogue input? I had taken analogue outputs from the X1, for DCL/CCL and passed them through an isolator to the X1, for analogue torque and regen limiting, but I have removed it for the time being to keep life simpler.



> Problem is understanding the relation between DC amps and torque. As far as i can see, the DC curent increases with speed.
> Anyone has done that before ?


It'll be dependent on the car, the mass, wheel diameter, the drivetrain etc. Clearly, the faster you go, the more energy you need to expend, and the rate at which you do this work determines the power you need which is related to the torque etc. There is a good page here:





Power vs. Torque – x-engineer.org


Tutorial on the torque and power calculation and full load characteristics of an internal combustion engine




x-engineer.org







> You don't cool the motor ? on my mx5 cooling the motor is absolutely neccesary or i get stuck motor over 130°C when a hill apears.
> I got EVeurope liquid cooling kit and now i run at 60-70°C on the same hill.
> For the SME i've got a piece of aluminium heatsink and a fan, it run about 30-35°C


I cool the controller, via a water cooled aluminium chillplate, but not the motor.



> Is your field weakening enabled ? what does this do ?


I've left all that alone ...


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## poloLbricolo (Apr 1, 2019)

MoonUnit said:


> I'd be interested to know what you did there - are you taking DCL and CCL levels from the Orion over CAN and converting them to voltage levels for the X1 analogue input? I had taken analogue outputs from the X1, for DCL/CCL and passed them through an isolator to the X1, for analogue torque and regen limiting, but I have removed it for the time being to keep life simpler.


I have an arduino uno a canbus shield and an isolated canbus hat for raspberrypi. The circuit is powered by the SME 5V.
I have an unisolated Canbus shield to serve as a passthough for can messages from the SME to the rest of the car (motor RPM, inverter and motor temps) and from the rest of the car to the SME (%SOC, DC amps)
Yes, i'm taking the CCL and DCL over the isolated can to the Orion, values are then converted into percentage and that percentage (0-5V pwm) is what the arduino outputs to the SME DCL and CCL analog inputs (K1-22 and K1-23 for me)
I'm waiting on an answer from netgain about the DC amps to torque relation.



MoonUnit said:


> There is a good page here:


Quite intresting read, thank you



MoonUnit said:


> I've left all that alone ...


Is it enabled ?


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## MoonUnit (Jun 29, 2019)

poloLbricolo said:


> I have an arduino uno a canbus shield and an isolated canbus hat for raspberrypi. The circuit is powered by the SME 5V.
> I have an unisolated Canbus shield to serve as a passthough for can messages from the SME to the rest of the car (motor RPM, inverter and motor temps) and from the rest of the car to the SME (%SOC, DC amps)
> Yes, i'm taking the CCL and DCL over the isolated can to the Orion, values are then converted into percentage and that percentage (0-5V pwm) is what the arduino outputs to the SME DCL and CCL analog inputs (K1-22 and K1-23 for me)


Nice solution. I was frustrated that the Orion and the ACX1 cannot communicate CCL and DCL between them over CAN. I kept pestering Netgain and Ewert about it but I gave up - maybe there will be a firmware upate at some point to enable it. For now, I use the battery protection tab in SME to limit the regen if the pack voltage is high and the dicharge current if it is low. I set these limits inside the Orion limits so hopefully the Orion does not get triggered.

Field Weakening:


> Is it enabled ?


I am using the default parameters in the Motor and Control tabs, so I assume that it is ...


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## bogtus (May 12, 2021)

MoonUnit said:


> Nice solution. I was frustrated that the Orion and the ACX1 cannot communicate CCL and DCL between them over CAN. I kept pestering Netgain and Ewert about it but I gave up - maybe there will be a firmware upate at some point to enable it.


Happy to read that I'm not the only looking for this, it's quite crucial if we want a power decrease instead of an exceeding of the limits & the BMS shutting down the all system ! The only solution is to have a microcontroller between both taking the information on Can from the BMS & sending it analogically to the controller.


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## sauce504 (Jul 25, 2021)

Greetings! New user here. Signed up because my Hyper9HV is on its way to me, and will soon be going in a Pinto. Wanted to add to the discussion about the precharge circuit on the X144 controller. It seems as if Netgain has added a little bit to the HV manual showing a relay in the precharge area. I also found this updated photo of the X144 showing the precharge connection and what I presume to be the resistor. Anybody wired one up yet?


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## agmatthews (Oct 5, 2018)

sauce504 said:


> Greetings! New user here. Signed up because my Hyper9HV is on its way to me, and will soon be going in a Pinto. Wanted to add to the discussion about the precharge circuit on the X144 controller. It seems as if Netgain has added a little bit to the HV manual showing a relay in the precharge area. I also found this updated photo of the X144 showing the precharge connection and what I presume to be the resistor. Anybody wired one up yet?


Ok, now that is quite different. 
Any word from Netgain about if this only applies to a new model X144 or if they now recommend something different for older units?


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## sauce504 (Jul 25, 2021)

Ok, got this response today, and pretty sure it only applies to the X144:
"The Precharge B+ Terminal can be hard wired to battery pack positive, or switched on via your key switch using the included HV Precharge relay.

Hard wired: Precharge will always see voltage when the high voltage battery pack circuit is closed. This means less cycles of the controller’s internal Precharge circuit. It will also leave a parasitic drain on your battery pack. If you will be certain to open a high voltage maintenance switch while leaving the vehicle unattended for weeks at a time, then this option will work well.

HV Precharge Relay: This will Precharge your controller upon startup every time. It will eliminate a parasitic drain on your High Voltage pack. The key switch must have an On position that energizes the HV Precharge Relay coil before the key is turned to the Start position, which will close 12V+ to K1-24."


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## scubascooby (Jun 21, 2021)

I found a company doing a dual Hyper9 set up.



https://eveurope.eu/en/product/dual-hyper-coupler/


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## Kaltal (Mar 4, 2020)

Hi Guys,

I have a basic question that I can not seem to find an answer for, probably me not being able to google properly😋. What is the difference between the Hyper9 and the Hyper9HV. I mean practical difference. I understand different voltages and controllers etc. Is the advantage of the HV the fact that it is a lower amp motor so I do not need as high discharge from my batteries? I've looked at the specs and the charts but still not sure exactly what the driving factor in choice between them is. I am in the planning stage right now, I like the hyper 9 and will use one but its whether or not I go for the hyper 9 or hyper9 HV, then I can plan my battery pack accordingly. Thanks for any help.


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

Kaltal said:


> What is the difference between the Hyper9 and the Hyper9HV. I mean practical difference. I understand different voltages and controllers etc.


They are made of exactly the same parts, except that the HV has more turns of finer wire in the stator winding. That means it can make the same torque with less current, but requires more voltage... and that's the practical difference.

Try this: load the HyPer 9 performance chart and the HyPer 9HV performance chart in their own tabs of your web browser, and click back and forth between them... you should be able to see that the shape of the curves and the power used and produced at any speed are the same; the only difference is that the HV version takes more DC link voltage (144 V vs 108 V from the battery to the controller) to do the same thing. That higher voltage means less current - NetGain doesn't show the DC link current, but if at the same speed and torque output they're using about the same power, then higher voltage means less current.

The NetGain performance charts show motor current and voltage, which are not battery current and voltage. Since the controller is a voltage converter (the output voltage is the same as or less voltage than the input, and the output current is proportionally the same as or more current than the input), you can't directly compare battery current from this data - you would need to calculate it.



Kaltal said:


> Is the advantage of the HV the fact that it is a lower amp motor so I do not need as high discharge from my batteries?


Absolutely not. The discharge current from the battery is the power you are using divided by the battery voltage. The power you are using is determined how fast you are going and how hard you are accelerating or climbing; it doesn't depend on you choice of motor windings. Yes, the HV motor uses less current (and more voltage), but that doesn't change what the battery needs to supply for any given amount of motor power output.

If two otherwise identical EVs are being driven exactly the same way, but one has a HyPer 9 and the other has a HyPer 9 HV, they'll be using the same current from the battery. The current through the motor will be different, as the controller will be converting the power to a different voltage. To get full performance from the motor, the one with the HV motor will need a higher-voltage battery.



Kaltal said:


> I've looked at the specs and the charts but still not sure exactly what the driving factor in choice between them is. I am in the planning stage right now, I like the hyper 9 and will use one but its whether or not I go for the hyper 9 or hyper9 HV, then I can plan my battery pack accordingly.


Often motor voltage is related to different speed capability of the motor, but not in this case, at least the way the controller is programmed.

Yes, the battery is the difference. For instance, if you have chosen a 100 Ah cell with a nominal voltage of 3.75 V and determined that 90 of them would provide enough energy (34 kWh) and be able to deliver enough power, you might configure those 90 cells as 30S 3P (113 V and 300 Ah nominal) for the regular HyPer 9 versus 45S 2P (169 V and 200 Ah nominal) for the HyPer 9 HV. You could even use the higher-voltage battery configuration for both motors, but you couldn't use the lower-voltage configuration for the HV and get full power from it.

I think in more practical terms current builders are trying to make salvaged battery modules work, and would want to choose a motor to suit a workable combination of modules but the principles are the same.


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## Paower (Sep 23, 2020)

Hey team. I apologize if this isn't wholly relevant to the Hyper 9 motor but I believe that it mostly is. 

I've had Tesla batteries sitting in my garage waiting to be charged/balanced for 4 months now and it's time I get a move on. 

Probably one of the lesser qualified people in this thread but alas, here I am attempting to put together my schematic. I just wanted to get some other more qualified eyes on it before I nail everything down.

This is obviously missing the motor, controller, throttle, charge controller, and j1772 wiring, but for the main system, this is what I've been planning. Does this seem about right? You can tell it's mostly based on the EVWest schematic.

Some basic key questions I've got are:

*1. What was/is the best order of operations as far as wiring goes? *

_My plan has been to attack the individual battery boxes with their fuses, bms connections, and coolant lines first. Then move onto the contactor box w/o connecting high voltage, hooking up all the charger connections, DC/DC Converter, 12V system, and contactors. Then connect the motor and controller, and finally the HV system. _

*2. Contactors for each battery box or fuses and just one contactor?*

_I've seen people go back and forth on this. My plan is just to have the motor contactor, a 12V contactor and then fuses between each battery box. _

*3. Where should I worry about emi?*

_In your experience has this been an issue? Where and for what things do you use shielded cables? Is leaving the 12V fuse block and BMS in the contactor box a bad idea? Should they be housed separately?_











Any added tips/pointers are greatly appreciated. 

Thanks in advance!


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## reiderM (Dec 30, 2020)

Yes, low voltage before high voltage is a good plan. Best to leave the connections for the motor and inverter for last. Your plan sounds all good. Not necessary to use a contactor for each battery box. Just a fuse is sufficient. There is also a big shortage of contactors at the moment (3 months backordered) so even if you wanted one, you would have to forego them at least for now. 

EMI is not a big issue with DC and as such there shouldn't be any issue with having a BMS next to a DC contactor and busbar. The 3 AC phases from motor to inverter are the biggest sources of EMI. Shielded wiring may be necessary for those cable runs.


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## MoonUnit (Jun 29, 2019)

Does anyone know how to set a maximum current that the ACX1 controller can draw from the pack? My pack is fused at 600A, and I want to make sure that cannot be exceeded.

There is a 'motor limit current map' in the SME software, might this be it?

Thanks in advance ...


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## 4Foxtrot (Apr 1, 2019)

According to this graph its about 850Amps, @ 120v but not sure what's settable in TAU, I have not looked recently. This graph was created using some kind of 'Magic Battery'  - here in the _real_ world, although the 5 x Tesla MX modules can deliver 1200+amps, at that current the voltage is pulled down, so getting the 100kW is probably theoretical (mind you, there may be a case for super capacitors to help with a burst of amps without volt sag ?? ) Anyone tried ? Brian ? 

Also I find the Torque drop off above 4500 rpm quite noticeable in the real world - I'm pleased I kept a gear box. 

I chose the 120v hyper9 because I had the high discharge Tesla modules. The 140v Hyper9HV is a good choice where battery amps cant go over 500. The overall output of the 2 type of motor is the same.


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

4Foxtrot said:


> According to this graph its about 850Amps, @ 120v
> ...
> This graph was created using some kind of 'Magic Battery'  - here in the _real_ world, although the 5 x Tesla MX modules can deliver 1200+amps, at that current the voltage is pulled down, so getting the 100kW is probably theoretical (mind you, there may be a case for super capacitors to help with a burst of amps without volt sag ?? ) Anyone tried ? Brian ?
> ...
> ...


Why do you say that the battery must be "magic"? At no point in this test range does the DC supply exceed 110 kW, which any reasonable production EV battery can deliver. Presumably anyone wanting to operate a motor at 110 kW would size the battery for this.

Since the DC supply voltage is 120 V that 110 kW is 915 A (in the DC link, not ARMS through the motor). If using readily available salvaged EV battery modules, they would be configured with enough in series for 120 V (after accounting for sag) and enough in parallel for a thousand amps. Using Tesla Model S/X modules that's six modules in series (with lots of voltage headroom), and two strings in parallel would meet the current requirement; that's 110 kW from 12 modules, or the size of the entire battery pack of the pre-86 kWh Tesla models... which clearly have no difficulty delivering only 110 kW. Even Leaf modules could do that, if configured as 16S3P instead of 48S (so 16S12P cells instead of the stock 96S2P cells); it's not much past the stock rating of 80 kW for even the earliest 24 kWh Leaf pack.

Voltage sag in a battery which is properly sized for this purpose (which is certainly not just 5 Tesla Model S/X modules in series) won't be a problem. Sag _will_ likely be significant in a battery configured for a practical conversion, but it would make no sense to test a motor with a DC supply which can't maintain a reasonably constant voltage through the test.


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## 4Foxtrot (Apr 1, 2019)

Yep i did wonder about adding a 6th 25kg module which would only exceed the Hyper9 X1 upper voltage limit when over ~95 SOC. Although TAU would then restrict regen until SOC is well down. And of course we could all pile on another 5 or more modules at 125Kg  and enter the cycle of more weight>more power>more weight etc etc which today ends up with huge 2.5 ton electric SUV's with 'properly sized batteries' - not my idea for a fun, efficient, sustainable future 

Low weight in this car is the No.1 aim - as Colin Chapman's philosophy says "added lightness not only helps on the straights but also around the corners" .. to which I'll add it _also_ gives the amazing efficiency (as good as 7.5miles / kWh).

Looks like we should accept voltage sag of real world 'Physics' iirc aka I2R  .... .. or ... go BIG and heavy.
It also looks like the size of capacitor needed to smooth these voltage sags is big and very expensive.


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## 4Foxtrot (Apr 1, 2019)

Paower said:


> *1. What was/is the best order of operations as far as wiring goes? *
> 
> _My plan has been to attack the individual battery boxes with their fuses, bms connections, and coolant lines first. Then move onto the contactor box w/o connecting high voltage, hooking up all the charger connections, DC/DC Converter, 12V system, and contactors. Then connect the motor and controller, and finally the HV system. _
> 
> ...


Looks good to me, and snap 5 tesla modules on a AX1 - a sweet spot for weight/power/efficiency. I used 2 packs of 2 and 3 modules and only 1 fuse. I figured that all in series and fewer bits to go wrong [my 1st conversion, a smart car had too many 'safety devices' which added other 'in use' risks - think: bumpy rail crossing, wife driving, with kid on board .. luckily although wife freaked, kid knew that a quick reset fixes most electrical errors  )

1. Yep same order
2. As above I used 1, as per the much copied EV west wiring diagram - 100% reliable in getting on for 2 years daily use
3. No - I found less interference than from previous ICE set up ! [not an issue]

All I'd add (from bitter experience with earlier conversions)
1. Check every wire / connection _*3 times*_ before its used
2. Minimise connections: plugs, sockets - sacrifice convenience of quick releases for reliability.
(ditto fuses etc - but this is a personal choice as above !!)
3. Especially for LV control wires (and in my case, HV too) back up crimped connections with solder and make sure never near water.
4. Be super careful with any part that is on both HV and LV circuits (eg DC-DC, controller, gauges etc) Dont be tempted by cheap components, gauges etc especially ANY that see both HV and LV.
5. Make sure every wire and connection wont get worn with use and vibrations - plenty of sheathing. Fuses are a 2ndary barrier to shorts and this kind of failure - but ideally fix it at source. 

Otherwise enjoy that 1st time spool up on new (0-5v) throttle  its magic


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## MoonUnit (Jun 29, 2019)

The Tau software has a Motor Current Limit Map, example attached. It shows that 100% of the maximum current can be drawn for any motor speed (the red line), whereas the green line shows the percentage of maximum current that the controller can supply to the pack under regen.

The units imply that 750 A RMS is the maximum current that can be drawn (I’m using the low voltage Hyper 9 system).

I am assuming that because it refers to A RMS, it’s likely to be referring to AC motor current, not DC pack current.

Netgain’s webpage refers to “750A Peak”, which is not the same as 750 A RMS in the Tau software, and also not the same as the 850 Amps that the performance charts (such as the one from Negain) above shows.

So I am confused … all I want to do is limit the max DC current draw from my pack to 600A. I did try reducing the Drive % limits to about 450A RMS, but the car was undriveable, I could barely get to 20mph. Any help in interpreting these various current units gratefully received ...


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## reiderM (Dec 30, 2020)

4Foxtrot said:


> Yep i did wonder about adding a 6th 25kg module which would only exceed the Hyper9 X1 upper voltage limit when over ~95 SOC. Although TAU would then restrict regen until SOC is well down. And of course we could all pile on another 5 or more modules at 125Kg  and enter the cycle of more weight>more power>more weight etc etc which today ends up with huge 2.5 ton electric SUV's with 'properly sized batteries' - not my idea for a fun, efficient, sustainable future
> 
> Low weight in this car is the No.1 aim - as Colin Chapman's philosophy says "added lightness not only helps on the straights but also around the corners" .. to which I'll add it _also_ gives the amazing efficiency (as good as 7.5miles / kWh).
> 
> ...


7.5 miles/kWh is incredible efficiency. You're saying you can get about 175 miles with your 25kWh pack?

I'm doing 10 modules (2 parallel strings of 5 modules in series) and shooting for 150 miles of range, which would be 3 miles/kWh. But my car (a 2010 Ford Escape) will weigh around 3600 lbs and be much less aerodynamic than yours.


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

4Foxtrot said:


> Yep i did wonder about adding a 6th 25kg module which would only exceed the Hyper9 X1 upper voltage limit when over ~95 SOC. Although TAU would then restrict regen until SOC is well down. And of course we could all pile on another 5 or more modules at 125Kg  and enter the cycle of more weight>more power>more weight etc etc which today ends up with huge 2.5 ton electric SUV's with 'properly sized batteries' - not my idea for a fun, efficient, sustainable future


Right - the car is a very different situation from the test bench. 

Of course 2.5 ton electric SUVs have batteries sized for range, not to avoid voltage sag.



4Foxtrot said:


> Looks like we should accept voltage sag of real world 'Physics' iirc aka I2R  .... .. or ... go BIG and heavy.
> It also looks like the size of capacitor needed to smooth these voltage sags is big and very expensive.


I agree that voltage sag should be expected. Unless the motor supplier wants to provide multiple performance curves at various voltages (as some do, but not NetGain) the effect of reduced voltage won't be apparent in the performance data.


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

reiderM said:


> 7.5 miles/kWh is incredible efficiency. You're saying you can get about 175 miles with your 25kWh pack?


Or in normal energy consumption terms, 133 Wh/mile (83 Wh/km). That's about half the consumption of production EVs which are more than twice as heavy (so more than twice as much rolling drag) and have about twice as much frontal area (so twice the aero drag for the same coefficient of drag). Of course there's always the problem in comparing range of getting comparable driving conditions. The HyPer 9 has typical efficiency for a modern EV motor; require it to do less work and it will consume less energy.


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

reiderM said:


> I'm doing 10 modules (2 parallel strings of 5 modules in series) and shooting for 150 miles of range, which would be 3 miles/kWh. But my car (a 2010 Ford Escape) will weigh around 3600 lbs and be much less aerodynamic than yours.


The Escape and the Elan are probably pretty close in coefficient of drag (around 0.40, or worse for the Elan with the top down), but the Escape will have much more frontal area, and drag force is proportional to both the coefficient and the area (and the density of air).


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## poloLbricolo (Apr 1, 2019)

Still no new regarding the direct CANbus comunication between the SME and Orion BMS ( or other can enabled BMS) i've sent multiple e-mail to Hunter with no answsers. 
It appears that netgain released a new OEM version of the SmartView software. (SmartViewGuiInstaller_2BC_2BD_OEM_Rel_1_3.zip) anyone knows what they changed ?


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## 4Foxtrot (Apr 1, 2019)

MoonUnit said:


> all I want to do is limit the max DC current draw from my pack to 600A. I did try reducing the Drive % limits to about 450A RMS, but the car was undriveable, I could barely get to 20mph. Any help in interpreting these various current units gratefully received ...
> 
> View attachment 123850


Mmm braver man than I to play with the Motor and control settings, although I agree this page looks like a way to set max current to 600A. I would do a drive with recording running, say battery (DC) amps, vs % torque motor speed etc and then import, via .csv into excel and see if/ where you see approaching 600A or more. A meter would do the same, but I find they move too quickly and are too distracting when driving.

I haven't run a plot for ages but here is an early one when testing.. Tau software is really good for this kind of thing


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

Has anyone tried to get support from Dana TM4 for these components, since the motor and "TM4 Tautronic" controller are now Dana TM4 products, after Dana TM4 acquired SME? It's probably futile, but if anyone could reach the right person it might be more productive than support routed through the NetGain people who have nothing to do with the design or production of the motor, controller/inverter, or software.


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## MoonUnit (Jun 29, 2019)

4Foxtrot said:


> Mmm braver man than I to play with the Motor and control settings, although I agree this page looks like a way to set max current to 600A. I would do a drive with recording running, say battery (DC) amps, vs % torque motor speed etc and then import, via .csv into excel and see if/ where you see approaching 600A or more. A meter would do the same, but I find they move too quickly and are too distracting when driving.
> 
> I haven't run a plot for ages but here is an early one when testing.. Tau software is really good for this kind of thing


Yes, probably a good next step to try it live and log it, and see if that makes any sense. I have a live ammeter running and I never get close to 600A, but that's not the point, I want to ensure all the safety systems are in place. My main concern was not actually breaching 600A on current draw, but exceeding the charge limit for the Tesla modules on regen if coming off throttle from high speed (like on the motorway) which the software supposedly allows you to do.


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## MoonUnit (Jun 29, 2019)

brian_ said:


> Has anyone tried to get support from Dana TM4 for these components, since the motor and "TM4 Tautronic" controller are now Dana TM4 products, after Dana TM4 acquired SME? It's probably futile, but if anyone could reach the right person it might be more productive than support routed through the NetGain people who have nothing to do with the design or production of the motor, controller/inverter, or software.


I might try this, because Netgain are just ignoring me.


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## 4Foxtrot (Apr 1, 2019)

MoonUnit said:


> I might try this, because Netgain are just ignoring me.


Netgain just dont answer emails but they DO accept phone calls. Hunter really knows his stuff.

YES Brian It would be great to source info (if not hardware / software) from Dana, but I've only got the hand .. .. if anyone has a contact there it would be wonderful.
As with Yasa and some of the amazing e-motors used for aero eg 500kW (540hp) from tiny <50kg axial motors, (but with eyewatering costs) I get _‘Sorry Sir only for OEM car companies’_


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

MoonUnit said:


> Does anyone know how to set a maximum current that the ACX1 controller can draw from the pack? My pack is fused at 600A, and I want to make sure that cannot be exceeded.
> 
> There is a 'motor limit current map' in the SME software, might this be it?


A current limit in a controller would normally be motor current, not DC link current, and I agree with this conclusion:


MoonUnit said:


> The Tau software has a Motor Current Limit Map, example attached. It shows that 100% of the maximum current can be drawn for any motor speed (the red line), whereas the green line shows the percentage of maximum current that the controller can supply to the pack under regen.
> 
> The units imply that 750 A RMS is the maximum current that can be drawn (I’m using the low voltage Hyper 9 system).
> 
> I am assuming that because it refers to A RMS, it’s likely to be referring to AC motor current, not DC pack current.


There is no need for a motor controller to even be aware of the DC link current, except to protect itself; in a rational integrated system, the BMS would tell the motor controller when power demand needs to be reduced to protect the battery, regardless of the current from the battery (depending instead on a more sophisticated combination of temperature, and trends over time of current).



MoonUnit said:


> Netgain’s webpage refers to “750A Peak”, which is not the same as 750 A RMS in the Tau software, and also not the same as the 850 Amps that the performance charts (such as the one from Negain) above shows.


The way it is given on the NetGain motor page for the HyPer 9 IS, the 750 A looks like a battery current peak, because it is given with battery voltages. That is not the same as motor current, and it is not apparent where NetGain got this value.

The HyPer 9 and HyPer 9HV specs show about the same maximum power from the battery - with about 1.5 as much voltage as the regular model, the HV uses about 2/3 of the maximum current, which makes sense. 

If you look at the peak performance data published by NetGain for various voltages, calculate the DC link for corresponding to peak power based on mechanical output power and efficiency, and divide by the (approximate) DC link voltage you get the peak DC link current in that test. 

For example:
at 72 V DC link, peak power is 60.3 kW and efficiency is 91.7% so electrical input power must have been 60.3*1000 W / .917 = 65,758 W, and so current was 65,758 W / 72 V = 913 A.

Here are all of these values for the published peak performance charts for the regular HyPer 9 and HyPer 9HV systems:

SystemDC Link test voltage
Vpeak mechanical power
kWefficiency at peak power
%calculated input power
kWcalculated DC link current
AHyPer 97260.391.7%65.8913HyPer 98471.493.0%76.8914HyPer 99681.393.9%86.6902HyPer 910893.993.5%100.4930HyPer 9120102.894.3%109.0908HyPer 9132112.893.7%120.4912HyPer 9HV12073.093.8%77.8649HyPer 9HV13280.393.2%86.2653HyPer 9HV14488.093.8%93.8652HyPer 9HV15695.594.4%101.2648
The current can be much more than 750 A for the regular (not HV) version, even at the highest voltages. It isn't a constant value, but it's close enough (given that the DC link voltage is only an approximation) for a given system (regular or HV), that I suspect that the controller has an internal input (DC link) current limit.



MoonUnit said:


> So I am confused … all I want to do is limit the max DC current draw from my pack to 600A. I did try reducing the Drive % limits to about 450A RMS, but the car was undriveable, I could barely get to 20mph. Any help in interpreting these various current units gratefully received ...


Various information tracked by the controller could be used in logic to set a limit, if the current is not directly available, but the obvious solution is to use the input power (or even just output power... whatever is available) and divide that by battery voltage (or even just a constant nominal voltage is actual battery voltage isn't available) to calculate what the battery current must be... and limit that if you can.

Alternatively, if there is a configurable power limit, just set that to the value corresponding to the maximum battery current that you can tolerate multiplied by the lowest battery voltage that you will be using... and be unnecessarily limited in power when battery voltage is higher.

The best solution is obviously to find the actual input current limit parameter in the software, but of course that's exactly what you're asking for.


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

4Foxtrot said:


> YES Brian It would be great to source info (if not hardware / software) from Dana, but I've only got the hand .. .. if anyone has a contact there it would be wonderful.
> As with Yasa and some of the amazing e-motors used for aero eg 500kW (540hp) from tiny <50kg axial motors, (but with eyewatering costs) I get _‘Sorry Sir only for OEM car companies’_


Yes, this is - unfortunately for DIY enthusiasts - a normal situation. Even in the case of BorgWarner, which offers direct-to-consumer sales and support via their Cascadia Motion division, the Cascadia Motion people don't actually make the motors. A direct Dana TM4 contact is a long shot; better documentation would also be good, but even that is unlikely.


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## MoonUnit (Jun 29, 2019)

Firstly, thanks @brian for such a comprehensive post, really helpful. Might not get us to the answer we need just yet but very useful nonetheless.



brian_ said:


> A current limit in a controller would normally be motor current, not DC link current,


OK.


brian_ said:


> There is no need for a motor controller to even be aware of the DC link current, except to protect itself; in a rational integrated system, the BMS would tell the motor controller when power demand needs to be reduced to protect the battery, regardless of the current from the battery (depending instead on a more sophisticated combination of temperature, and trends over time of current).


Agreed, and this is exactly the situation I am in - I have an Orion BMS providing quite a sophisticated current map which I can't get the ACX1 to use.



brian_ said:


> The way it is given on the NetGain motor page for the HyPer 9 IS, the 750 A looks like a battery current peak, because it is given with battery voltages. That is not the same as motor current, and it is not apparent where NetGain got this value.


The trouble is, the controller and software documentation refer to RMS current everywhere.


brian_ said:


> If you look at the peak performance data published by NetGain for various voltages, calculate the DC link for corresponding to peak power based on mechanical output power and efficiency, and divide by the (approximate) DC link voltage you get the peak DC link current in that test.
> 
> For example:
> at 72 V DC link, peak power is 60.3 kW and efficiency is 91.7% so electrical input power must have been 60.3*1000 W / .917 = 65,758 W, and so current was 65,758 W / 72 V = 913 A.
> ...


This means that at peak power, I would blow my 600A pack fuse. I don't want to do that!



> The best solution is obviously to find the actual input current limit parameter in the software, but of course that's exactly what you're asking for.


Yes ...

I will see if I can get hold of Netgain on the phone and/or try to run some diagnostics on the car. The controller will output 'DC bus' current and 'Motor phase current' via CAN, alledgedly, so I'll see if I can monitor those.

Thanks again.


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## reiderM (Dec 30, 2020)

Keep in mind that a fuse rated for 600A continuous can handle >600A for brief periods of time.


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## djx92 (Oct 9, 2021)

Hi everyone,

Starting my first conversion with a Mini Cooper 2007 and Hyper9 X1.

I would like to use the 8 modules from a BMW i3 battery pack.

At first, I was thinking to split these 8 modules in 4 groups of 96v parallel strings (4P2S?) but it looks like it will add a bunch of management complexity. I was also planning to use SimpBMS at the beginning because it’s compatible with i3 battery modules but since I’m planning to regroup some modules in parallel, I doubt it will work…

Looks like most of you are using Tesla modules, just wondering is someone already looked at the i3 batt option.

Thanks!


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## reiderM (Dec 30, 2020)

djx92 said:


> Hi everyone,
> 
> Starting my first conversion with a Mini Cooper 2007 and Hyper9 X1.
> 
> ...


The SimpBMS is actually the ideal BMS for parallel configurations since it communicates with the balancing circuitry on each module. That's why so many people use them for solar setups where modules are put in parallel (most solar systems are only 24 or 48v). I just yesterday shipped out a SimpBMS to someone who's going to use it with 14 Tesla modules in a 48v system (modules arranged 2s7p). In my personal project I have parallel modules as well. As long as you're not using more than a full pack of i3 modules, the SimpBMS is your best bet. 

Parallel modules is what first led me to the SimpBMS. The cost to go with an Orion BMS would have been $2400 since I would have needed 2x 30s BMSes (one for each parallel string, my modules are arranged 5s2p). 

I sell them on eBay: SimpBMS Tesla BMS For Tesla Model S/X Battery Modules | eBay


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## djx92 (Oct 9, 2021)

reiderM said:


> The SimpBMS is actually the ideal BMS for parallel configurations since it communicates with the balancing circuitry on each module. That's why so many people use them for solar setups where modules are put in parallel (most solar systems are only 24 or 48v). I just yesterday shipped out a SimpBMS to someone who's going to use it with 14 Tesla modules in a 48v system (modules arranged 2s7p). In my personal project I have parallel modules as well. As long as you're not using more than a full pack of i3 modules, the SimpBMS is your best bet.
> 
> Parallel modules is what first led me to the SimpBMS. The cost to go with an Orion BMS would have been $2400 since I would have needed 2x 30s BMSes (one for each parallel string, my modules are arranged 5s2p).
> 
> I sell them on eBay: SimpBMS Tesla BMS For Tesla Model S/X Battery Modules | eBay


Thanks for your feedback ReiderM!

Do you have a wiring diagram showing how things work in a serial + parallel configuration?

I also would like to know if anyone knows how does the Hyper9 X1 behave with 90v nominal voltage, I hope it's not too short (The hyper9 documentation says nominal voltage is 100v).


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## reiderM (Dec 30, 2020)

djx92 said:


> Thanks for your feedback ReiderM!
> 
> Do you have a wiring diagram showing how things work in a serial + parallel configuration?
> 
> I also would like to know if anyone knows how does the Hyper9 X1 behave with 90v nominal voltage, I hope it's not too short (The hyper9 documentation says nominal voltage is 100v).


The wiring is the same for any series or parallel configuration. The balance boards just need to be told what to do to each individual cell, and all balance boards are given the same command for any series/parallel array. 

90v nominal is low for the Hyper9. It'll work fine (minimum voltage is 62v), but you're losing out on power. At a lower voltage, the motor will take longer to spin up to speed. I'd highly recommend you take the voltage as close to the maximum allowed by the X1 controller as possible.


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

djx92 said:


> I also would like to know if anyone knows how does the Hyper9 X1 behave with 90v nominal voltage, I hope it's not too short (The hyper9 documentation says nominal voltage is 100v).


NetGain publishes performance data at several voltages.

Here are the peak power values and speeds of peak torque from the published peak performance charts for the regular HyPer 9 system, with the voltage values linked to the online performance chart document:

SystemDC Link test voltage
Vpeak mechanical power
kWmax torque (~230 Nm) up to about...
(RPM)HyPer 97260.32100HyPer 98471.42400HyPer 99681.32600HyPer 910893.93500HyPer 9120102.83700HyPer 9132112.84500

Obviously, more battery voltage is better, but if 75 kW and peak torque sustained up to about 2600 RPM is adequate, 90 volts will do.


----------



## djx92 (Oct 9, 2021)

reiderM said:


> The wiring is the same for any series or parallel configuration. The balance boards just need to be told what to do to each individual cell, and all balance boards are given the same command for any series/parallel array.
> 
> 90v nominal is low for the Hyper9. It'll work fine (minimum voltage is 62v), but you're losing out on power. At a lower voltage, the motor will take longer to spin up to speed. I'd highly recommend you take the voltage as close to the maximum allowed by the X1 controller as possible.


Cool, Thanks! I will order one for the i3 batteries!


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## djx92 (Oct 9, 2021)

brian_ said:


> NetGain publishes performance data at several voltages.
> 
> Here are the peak power values and speeds of peak torque from the published peak performance charts for the regular HyPer 9 system, with the voltage values linked to the online performance chart document:
> 
> ...


Thanks Brian, that's very helpful. 75 kW could be enough but I can also try to build a pack with 2 groups of 3 modules in series and reach 135V. Hyper 9 HV could be a better fit. At peak voltage, 3 modules will generate approx 150v and will burn the X1 controller.


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## MoonUnit (Jun 29, 2019)

MoonUnit said:


> I will see if I can get hold of Netgain on the phone and/or try to run some diagnostics on the car. The controller will output 'DC bus' current and 'Motor phase current' via CAN, alledgedly, so I'll see if I can monitor those.


Update: I spoke to Hunter at Netgain, he confirmed that the Motor Current Limit Current map (that refers to 100% current being 750 A RMS) is motor current, and that it is RMS. Fine.

I then drove around for a short while logging 'DC Bus Voltage', 'DC Bus Current', 'Inverter 1 Current' and 'Phase Voltage' from the X1. I also tried watching the Actual Current as shown in the Motor Current Limit Map, and I can confirm that the Actual Current is the same field as 'Inverter 1 Current' as logged.

Traffic was bad, and I couldn't get over 20mph so never pushed the system hard, but it's clear that the DC current was always much less that the AC motor current. Phase voltage was much lower than pack voltage. I don't know what its maximum value is - maybe 100V in the low-voltage Hyper 9?, which would make some sense (100V x 750A = 75KW, about right).

I calc'd DC power vs AC power (using the phase voltage) and these are directly correlated but the AC power was only about 66% of the DC power, which I put down to the motor operating at low motor speeds (<1500 rpm). The highest AC current I could pull was about 600A rms in the motor whereas I never really got over 200A DC bus current. My ammeter, running off a shunt, looked consistently a bit higher than the DC bus current by eye but hard to tell as it wasn't being logged.

I don't know enough about the inner workings of these motors to know what happens when the AC current is up at the 750A rms 'limit' - presumably the phase voltage increases as motor speed increases.

But the long and the short of it is that yes, the Motor Current Limit Map can be used to set a maximum current, but I am really not sure how to link that value back to my DC pack current!



























Controller voltage (rms) shown on left scale, DC voltage on right scale.


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

MoonUnit said:


> Update: I spoke to Hunter at Netgain, he confirmed that the Motor Current Limit Current map (that refers to 100% current being 750 A RMS) is motor current, and that it is RMS.


So the 100% on the map is the S2-2min limit... which doesn't make a lot of sense unless much more than 100% is permitted, because for a shorter duration higher current is acceptable.

I have a more complete analysis of where this value comes from, but have not had a chance to post it yet... I'll add it after this post.



MoonUnit said:


> Traffic was bad, and I couldn't get over 20mph so never pushed the system hard, but it's clear that the DC current was always much less that the AC motor current. Phase voltage was much lower than pack voltage. I don't know what its maximum value is - maybe 100V in the low-voltage Hyper 9?, which would make some sense (100V x 750A = 75KW, about right).


Yes, a motor controller is reducing voltage and increasing current proportionally, unless it is at "full on". The spec sheets published by Dana TM4 list the AC output voltage for two DC voltage inputs as:
3 x 0…47 (@80 VDC)​3 x 0…53 (@100 VDC)​Output would be higher for the controller which is capable of handling higher input voltage,but in any case the (RMS) output voltage is no more than not much over half of the input DC voltage.



MoonUnit said:


> I don't know enough about the inner workings of these motors to know what happens when the AC current is up at the 750A rms 'limit' - presumably the phase voltage increases as motor speed increases.


Regardless of whether or not current is at a limit, the voltage to the motor must increase with motor speed (to overcome back-EMF), and with current (to overcome winding resistance).



MoonUnit said:


> View attachment 123967
> 
> Controller voltage (rms) shown on left scale, DC voltage on right scale.


It's amusing how nicely the drop (or "sag") in DC voltage reflects the phase voltage; it would be even closer to reflecting DC power. Fortunately, the DC voltage drops only a few percent even in when most heavily loaded.


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

brian_ said:


> The way it is given on the NetGain motor page for the HyPer 9 IS, the 750 A looks like a battery current peak, because it is given with battery voltages. That is not the same as motor current, and it is not apparent where NetGain got this value.





MoonUnit said:


> Update: I spoke to Hunter at Netgain, he confirmed that the Motor Current Limit Current map (that refers to 100% current being 750 A RMS) is motor current, and that it is RMS.


It looks like there may be a source for those values…

The HyPer 9 components are from SME, which is now part of Dana TM4. The user manuals published by NetGain for the two controllers (to go with the standard and HV motors) are branded both SME and NetGain:

Model AC-X1
Model AC-X144 (With 12-24 V Isolated Logic Section

The Dana TM4 web pages for most of their motors - including these ones - don’t provide or link to any detailed specifications; however, there is a TM4 Tautronic™ page, and while it has few specs a web search discovered a spec sheet. The web page shows three product groups, and both controllers for the HyPer 9 would be in the “ACX1 / ACX1-l” group. The Dana TM4 spec sheet shows individual models, and two match NetGain’s controller models:

_TM4 Tautronic AC-X1 Low-Voltage Inverter_
80 - 100 V nominal input voltage
“Nom. current S2- 2 min (Arms)”: various values (depending on model) up to 750 A
*AC-X1 80/100V 750A SWS* is the 750 A model (part number ACX1S75000000)
this is apparently what NetGain sells as the regular “AC-X1” for the regular-voltage motor; this model name best matches the highest-current model in the chart in the NetGain manual

_TM4 TautronicTM AC-X1-I with Isolated Logic High Performance Low-Voltage Inverters_
80 - 100 V or 120 - 144 V nominal input voltage
“Nom. current S2- 2 min (Arms)”: various values (depending on model) up to 750 A
*AC-X1 120/144V 500A ISWS* is the higher-voltage (and 500 A) model (part number ACX1T50000000)
this is apparently what NetGain sells as the “AC-X144” for the higher-voltage (HV) motor; the model name matches the chart in the NetGain manual

The isolated-logic version specs include values for 10-second “boost current” for both the 80-100 V models and the 120-144 V model; this current for the nominally (S2-2min) 750 A model is 850 amps, roughly matching NetGain’s published test data for peak output.

So the 750 A and 500 A current values, despite being shown with battery voltages, are likely *RMS motor currents for the S2 (short time duty) condition with two-minute duration*.


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

While looking at controller information from Dana TM4, I also reviewed their motor lineup: the HyPer 9 is one of the models in their *SRI 200* series. I haven't found detailed specs for models within that series yet, so I don't know which one it is, but it appears to be a high-power variant.

The other "ASY" (asynchronous, meaning induction), "SYR" (synchronous reluctance), and "SRI" (synchronous reluctance / interior permanent magnet) series also appear to be from SME.

The IPM 120 and IPM 200 series are from AshWoods, which was also acquired by Dana TM4. Most of the motors from TM4 show up only in the product web page for "systems", not "motors".


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## MoonUnit (Jun 29, 2019)

brian_ said:


> So the 750 A and 500 A current values, despite being shown with battery voltages, are likely *RMS motor currents for the S2 (short time duty) condition with two-minute duration*.


Thanks @brian for all the sleuthing, which all makes perfect sense. In particular, the bolded above, is very helpful - the ACX1 manual and data sheets I have seen often referred to things like 'max power(2')' or 'Max RMS (2')' - I didn't know what the 2' meant but now, having looked up S2, it makes sense.

So now we know what the specs are saying ... still don't know how to limit the current the controller can pull from my pack!


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## asymptonic (Oct 14, 2021)

I too am scratching my head over this motor. I'm in the preliminary design phase for a 98 Wrangler conversion and am trying to size my battery pack and wiring, but can't get a sense of the number of continuous DC amps I should be expecting the controller to pull. Anyone worked this out yet? Trying to find the right cables and connectors by amp rating.


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## MoonUnit (Jun 29, 2019)

asymptonic said:


> I too am scratching my head over this motor. I'm in the preliminary design phase for a 98 Wrangler conversion and am trying to size my battery pack and wiring, but can't get a sense of the number of continuous DC amps I should be expecting the controller to pull. Anyone worked this out yet? Trying to find the right cables and connectors by amp rating.


Well, all in all I'd say the motor is good and the controller, whilst it has some foibles, is also good. It has its own precharge circuitry which is one less thing to worry about. I use the low voltage version, with 5 Tesla packs.

I am running a VW Beetle so a pretty light car and I very rarely run more than 300A DC continuous - what tends to happen is you pull maybe up to 300A briefly when accelerating away, depending on how heavy your foot is, and then once you are up to speed the current draw is much lower (as you fight wind and rolling resistance). The motor itself I think is rated for 350A ish continuous. I use 70mm2 cabling for the HV throughout (00 AWG), and you could probably get away with 50mm2 if you weren't going to hammer the power. 

Not a very scientific answer but in short, use 00 AWG, and you'll be fine ...


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## asymptonic (Oct 14, 2021)

Was leaning towards 2/0, so sounds like I should be fine. How much does your Beetle weigh?


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## piotrsko (Dec 9, 2007)

Look up the specs on resistance per foot on your cables, multiply that by an arbitrary 300 amps and see what the voltage drop is per foot. Volt cars use about a 2awg flat strip and get a decent resultant power reduction. If that matters then you need thicker cables, if it doesnt use whatever you want that won't melt under maximum power. 2 awg is fine for 50 hp volksies, but sucks in a 300 hp Camaro


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## MoonUnit (Jun 29, 2019)

asymptonic said:


> Was leaning towards 2/0, so sounds like I should be fine. How much does your Beetle weigh?


I don't know, but I would guess around 900kg. Bit more if I've been eating a lot of pies.


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## pat_t (Dec 23, 2018)

I'm running aluminium power cable for the long (>1metre) run from my X1 to battery pack. 500kcmil which is just over 250mm² ! It's still lighter and cheaper than Copper for the equivalent voltage drop though. I'm probably going to use aluminium bus bars in the pack for the same reason.


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## MesquiteTim (Sep 30, 2021)

Aluminum wire and bus will crack and eventually break under vibration. It is not the best choice for an EV. Go with what the masses are doing...


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

MesquiteTim said:


> Aluminum wire and bus will crack and eventually break under vibration. It is not the best choice for an EV. Go with what the masses are doing...


Hmmm... maybe someone should tell Tesla that.  The Plaid pack has aluminum bar conductors which extend the entire length of the pack, plus shorter aluminum bar conductors connecting components at the front end.
Model S Plaid Battery Tear-down video

I agree that cracking due to vibration is a concern, and needs to be considered in the alloy selection and mechanical design of aluminum conductors.


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## MesquiteTim (Sep 30, 2021)

*Are you endorsing his use of aluminum wire?*

Brian, You seem to enjoy playing the guru role. You should be more careful with your words to the general DIY hobbyists. This is a DIY forum and has no relevance whatsoever to a Tesla engineered pack. What basis did you conclude that the connection bars are aluminum? They look like tinned copper to me. 

*Again, this is a DIY community and "we" should be steering builders to the materials and methods that most can successfully accomplish at home.*


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## pat_t (Dec 23, 2018)

MesquiteTim said:


> Aluminum wire and bus will crack and eventually break under vibration. It is not the best choice for an EV. Go with what the masses are doing...


The cross section of each individual strand in that power cable is several mm², likewise the bus bars are about 8mm x 20mm section! Neither of them are going to be cracking under vibration. I accept that I have 11 years as an automotive OEM Powertrain Design Engineer and therefore access to material and processes that the average DIY home enthusiast does not. But to be fair I have never advocated anything to anyone, simply sharing how I am going about things on my project for other people's interest and consideration.


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

MesquiteTim said:


> *Are you endorsing his use of aluminum wire?*


No, I didn't say that at all.



MesquiteTim said:


> You should be more careful with your words to the general DIY hobbyists. This is a DIY forum and has no relevance whatsoever to a Tesla engineered pack.


This forum has huge relevance to those packs; DIY hobbyists discussing their projects in this forum routinely use Tesla modules outside of that pack, taking on the responsibility for duplicating the features and capabilities of the Tesla OEM pack... usually with vastly inferior results (for enclosure strength, for instance), which seems to be okay with almost everyone in the forum.



MesquiteTim said:


> What basis did you conclude that the connection bars are aluminum? They look like tinned copper to me.


They just appear to have too much cross-sectional area to be copper, and it makes little sense to tin the entire length of a conductor bar instead of covering it with insulation. This would be a continuation of Tesla's long-established use of aluminum conductors, as module bus plates and in stranded cables. But I may be mistaken; after all, the aluminum rotor bars of Tesla's original induction motors have been superseded by copper bars in the current generation of Tesla induction motors. I assume that no one would be stupid enough to use a random bar of aluminum just because a OEM apparently used a different bar of aluminum.

Regardless of the material used by Tesla, I advised that "cracking due to vibration is a concern, and needs to be considered in the alloy selection and mechanical design of aluminum conductors." If someone doesn't know how to handle those considerations, they should not use aluminum.

Of course, similar concerns exist with copper, but apparently we're assuming that DIYers have a sound understanding of the conductivity of the various classes of copper alloys and the properties of those alloys with respect to fatigue strength.  In fact, the average builder assumes that all "copper" is the same, so a crushed copper water pipe makes an ideal conductor... and it might - I don't know. 



MesquiteTim said:


> *Again, this is a DIY community and "we" should be steering builders to the materials and methods that most can successfully accomplish at home.*


Absolutely true... and the only design of EV which every DIYer is qualified to build is the one that is purchased new from a car dealership, for which the "build" is the order sheet. 
At the very least, the assumed morons of the DIY world should be restricted to using commercially fabricated cable assemblies, right? Oh, right... they're allowed to select conductors, and to select and install connectors on them, but not to select conductor material.... hmmmm.

Many builders in this forum have never welded, but it is okay to discuss welding structures. Maybe we should be steering builders to only bolting stuff together, since most cannot successfully accomplish the fabrication of welded structures at home? No.


I do understand the idea of promoting technology which is appropriate for the user. As an example from another subject area of online discussion (not EVs), many commercial trailer frames are built in aluminum, but I shudder at amatuer plans to use aluminum; they are likely safer to stick to mild steel. What I don't do is declare that no one should discuss the possibility of using aluminum for that application.


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## djx92 (Oct 9, 2021)

Hi folks, when I bought my Hyper9, the Gigavac contactor was not included because of shortage. EV West is still supposed to send it to me but I would like to move forward. I just got my BMW i3 battery pack and the control module of the battery pack has 2 Panasonic AEV14012 relays (12v 140A). Do you think that I could use one of these relays to replace the Gigavac Ev200? To start, I will just use 2 battery modules to start (2x45v 60A in series) then later put the remaining 6 modules in parallel. Thanks!


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## asymptonic (Oct 14, 2021)

I wouldn't. The voltage rating is way too low, and the continuous power of the Hyper9 is more than double that amperage, never mind peak.


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## epwellpaul (Nov 17, 2021)

Hi guys,
What a great thread. I am about to embark on a conversion. Looking for some guidance as to where is best to purchase a Hyper 9HV? What is the favourite charger? and any other starting guidance. cheers


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## MoonUnit (Jun 29, 2019)

epwellpaul said:


> Hi guys,
> What a great thread. I am about to embark on a conversion. Looking for some guidance as to where is best to purchase a Hyper 9HV? What is the favourite charger? and any other starting guidance. cheers


Hi - welcome!

I bought my Hyper 9LV from Electric Classic Cars because he also sold the adapter plate I needed (I converted a Beetle). I bought the charger from Zero EV in Bristol, because he had the batteries I wanted at the time. The charger is this one Elcon TC Charger 6.6kW 50-198V - 46A - Zero EV and it's been perfectly fine for me. Very easy to wire in and no setup needed - all controlled by CANbus via my BMS (Orion2).

What are you converting?


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## X19e (Nov 21, 2021)

Hi folks, 
it has to be the Hyper 9 I'm nearly 100 % sure. Researching an European Distributor I came across EV Europe based in the Netherlands. Based on a Hyper 9 they invented the *EV hypE ™* 
Nearly everything you need attached directy to the motor. No need to wire any more instead of battery and charger. https://eveurope.eu/en/product/ev-hype-drive-high-en-low-voltage-max-90-kwatt-130-en-180-vdc/


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## HesseJames (Mar 18, 2021)

X19e said:


> Hi folks,
> it has to be the Hyper 9 I'm nearly 100 % sure. Researching an European Distributor I came across EV Europe based in the Netherlands. Based on a Hyper 9 they invented the *EV hypE ™*
> Nearly everything you need attached directy to the motor. No need to wire any more instead of battery and charger. https://eveurope.eu/en/product/ev-hype-drive-high-en-low-voltage-max-90-kwatt-130-en-180-vdc/


Adding 20% VAT. Not the cheapest. Margins are big in this area. So always compare prices. Most parts sold in EV Business are from China anyway. Ok, Motor not.


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## X19e (Nov 21, 2021)

You get 0,8857 EUR for one USD at the moment, but the European shops charge anything that is based on USD 1:1. Nice margin, indeed. I found two "EvShop" sites, one *.eu in Romenia and their twin in France *.fr. They charge 160 EUR less for the standard Hyper9 + AXC1. At least this gives me an idea how to negotiate with EVEurope. 
Maybe you know other sources for the NetGain System? Would you suggest to order in the US directly?
How do you like the compact design? Have seen others that attach the AXC1 directly to the Hyper9, but nobody does a similar integrated solution. The complete size of the unit might not always be an advantage and I'm still struggeling if that is the right way for my car. Maybe there are more disadvantage like vibrations from the motor going directly to the electric components and the integrated wiring.


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## MoonUnit (Jun 29, 2019)

Hi - I mounted my ACX1 controller on a plate that attaches to the adapter plate which the Hyper 9 is connected to. No issues with vibration so far.

I have bought some components from EVShop Romania and they have been very helpful (I am in the UK).

I think choosing a complete 'crate' setup like EVEurope are offering is a matter of personal choice. I chose to get the componets of my conversion and learn how to build a system - although the EVEurope solution was not available when I did it, I don't think I would buy one anyway as I enjoy the conversion process itself. That said, it would have saved me months, and probably money too in the long run.


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

X19e said:


> Have seen others that attach the AXC1 directly to the Hyper9, but nobody does a similar integrated solution. The complete size of the unit might not always be an advantage and I'm still struggeling if that is the right way for my car. Maybe there are more disadvantage like vibrations from the motor going directly to the electric components and the integrated wiring.


Electric motors don't vibrate, at least to an extent which is an issue for properly built electronic components. Most production EVs have the controller/inverter case bolted directly to the motor or gearbox case.


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## balex97 (Nov 25, 2021)

Hey there,

this thread is awesome. I converted 2 cars now and I had a few questions which are mentioned here.
There's a Gigavac GV200QA in this conversion kit with the Hyper9.
Is it really normal for the contactor to make this annoying humming/buzzing noise? It's because of the PWM signal of the SME inverter which runs the contactor with max. 1kHz.
Just got the answer from Gigavac support which says the GV200QA normally is run with 25kHz so humans can't hear the noise. 
Is there a way to use a contactor with included economizer and don't use the inverter signal?


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## MoonUnit (Jun 29, 2019)

balex97 said:


> Hey there,
> 
> this thread is awesome. I converted 2 cars now and I had a few questions which are mentioned here.
> There's a Gigavac GV200QA in this conversion kit with the Hyper9.
> ...


Yes, it's normal. It gave me a bit of a scare when I first got it going, I wasn't expecting it.

You can change the frequency in the ACX1 software, I believe it's under Configure->System->Mains->Main Contactor. I don't know whether it will go up to 25kHz.


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## balex97 (Nov 25, 2021)

Yeah, was my first attempt but unluckily the software only allows values from 125 to 1000Hz. 
So it seems I have to live with it and mount the contactor on some sound absorbing surface.


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## MoonUnit (Jun 29, 2019)

balex97 said:


> Yeah, was my first attempt but unluckily the software only allows values from 125 to 1000Hz.
> So it seems I have to live with it and mount the contactor on some sound absorbing surface.


That's what I did, which helped a bit. It's in a sealed box which also reduces the noise.


----------



## epwellpaul (Nov 17, 2021)

MoonUnit said:


> Hi - welcome!
> 
> I bought my Hyper 9LV from Electric Classic Cars because he also sold the adapter plate I needed (I converted a Beetle). I bought the charger from Zero EV in Bristol, because he had the batteries I wanted at the time. The charger is this one Elcon TC Charger 6.6kW 50-198V - 46A - Zero EV and it's been perfectly fine for me. Very easy to wire in and no setup needed - all controlled by CANbus via my BMS (Orion2).
> 
> What are you converting?


Sorry for the delay I have not got email notification on.
Thanks for the info. I have not decided on a donor yet. still looking.


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## pat_t (Dec 23, 2018)

balex97 said:


> Yeah, was my first attempt but unluckily the software only allows values from 125 to 1000Hz.
> So it seems I have to live with it and mount the contactor on some sound absorbing surface.


Does it sound quieter/less annoying at 125Hz or 1000Hz out of interest?


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## balex97 (Nov 25, 2021)

At 125Hz it's bit less annoying, at 1kHz it's very annoying due to this high frequency.


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## asymptonic (Oct 14, 2021)

One tiny consideration is that certain isolation materials will absorb or not transmit certain frequencies preferentially. If the coil can maintain a closed state at anything you can program, you may choose your isolators accordingly.


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## balex97 (Nov 25, 2021)

Yeah I will consider that. Set the frequency at 125Hz now and it's much more comfortable because there are other sounds at this frequencies too. So it doesn't stick out that much anymore. Hope the contactor can hold the contacts at this frequency - the time will show.


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## asymptonic (Oct 14, 2021)

If you're meeting the designed hold voltage in the application note, the frequency has to be high enough to overcome the mechanical action of the spring return on the coil. At 125hz that's 8ms. My guess is that you'll be fine.


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## Jeep Man (Sep 21, 2021)

ryan_w said:


> Awesome thread!
> Mark, we are doing a similar build on Porsche 912. (5) Tesla Batteries, EV West Hyper 9 Kit, AC1X controller, Dilithium BMS. Getting a a blocking fault on starting up the controller - "Driver Out 2 Open".. Driver Out 1 controls the 48V contactor, but Driver Out 2/3/4 don't do anything in our setup. Earlier versions of the Hyper9 schematic show these pins connected to similar loads (e.g Emer Brake), but latest kit doesn't even have these pins (K-27/28/29) in the 35-pin Ampseal connector. Any help greatly appreciated! -Ryan
> View attachment 122161


Hi Ryan,

Can you send me some detailed pics of your HV JB I see on the side of the motor - would love to know what you packed in there.

Thanks - Patrick


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## Rod-N (Nov 13, 2021)

4Foxtrot said:


> @OR-Carl Thanks SO much for setting this thread up  *A place for Tips, Tricks, Experiences .. Netgain Hyper9*
> (I'm still 'Newby' status or have somehow upset the gods, err mods  ). .. I'm still pretty crap on forum etiquette - if so apologies to OP @OR-Carl if the following experiences are not the correct format 🙏
> 
> Hyper9 are amazingly useful motors, controllers _and TAU software_ they are getting to be a 'go-to' by several top line EV conversion companies eg EV West, Electric Classic Cars as on 'Vintage Voltage' TV series, and Zero-EV. I chose it as it works on relatively low voltage ~100 to 130, or upto 170 for the HV version, and it is relatively light ~60Kg.
> ...


Great writeup on the Nextgen!
I am just getting through a conversion on a 08 beetle
I was reading the article on displaying RPM on the SME compact display and you said set the tire diameter to 85mm
what was the gear ratio and MPH or KMH?
thanks a lot
Rod


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

Rod-N said:


> I was reading the article on displaying RPM on the SME compact display and you said set the tire diameter to 85mm
> what was the gear ratio and MPH or KMH?


A 2008 Beetle's tires are about 620 mm in diameter overall, 85 mm would be ridiculous and even 850 mm would be far off. Is there a typo in there?


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## 4Foxtrot (Apr 1, 2019)

Rod-N said:


> Great writeup on the Nextgen!
> I am just getting through a conversion on a 08 beetle
> I was reading the article on displaying RPM on the SME compact display and you said set the tire diameter to 85mm
> what was the gear ratio and MPH or KMH?
> ...


iirc gear ratio set to 1:1 and with 85mm tyre diameter to show MOTOR rpm on the compact display. This is an alternative tacho (not speedo).
For speedo follow netgain instructions which only apply to single speed transmissions.


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

4Foxtrot said:


> iirc gear ratio set to 1:1 and with 85mm tyre diameter to show MOTOR rpm on the compact display. This is an alternative tacho (not speedo).
> For speedo follow netgain instructions which only apply to single speed transmissions.


That makes sense (if the ratio of actual tire diameter to 85 mm is the same as the overall transmission ratio)... although it makes no sense to bother with separate motor speed and road speed displays with a single-speed transmission.


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## 4Foxtrot (Apr 1, 2019)

brian_ said:


> That makes sense (if the ratio of actual tire diameter to 85 mm is the same as the overall transmission ratio)... although it makes no sense to bother with separate motor speed and road speed displays with a single-speed transmission.


This is just a trick to display the motor RPM in case you don't have a tacho.
Its independent of the transmission ratio, actual tyre size etc. Its useful because the Netgain display normally shows road speed , and if you already have a speedo (or GPS speedo) a tacho is useful (OK ... maybe only for nerds like us 😆 )


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## remy_martian (Feb 4, 2019)

A tach is useless on a fixed ratio geartrain if you cannot disconnect the motor from the gearbox, as with a clutch.


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## 4Foxtrot (Apr 1, 2019)

remy_martian said:


> A tach is useless on a fixed ratio geartrain if you cannot disconnect the motor from the gearbox, as with a clutch.


Yep .. but damn useful when you _do_ have gears as I do


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## pat_t (Dec 23, 2018)

Has anyone ever seen or thought about including a crash sensor safety switch? something like this:
*Inertia Crash Sensor Switch *
Something to ensure no HV coming out of the junction box in the event of an impact. Easy to reset by the driver if triggered accidentally by a low speed bump...


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## 4Foxtrot (Apr 1, 2019)

pat_t said:


> Has anyone ever seen or thought about including a crash sensor safety switch? something like this:
> *Inertia Crash Sensor Switch *
> Something to ensure no HV coming out of the junction box in the event of an impact. Easy to reset by the driver if triggered accidentally by a low speed bump...


Interesting Question
My answer may well be controversial (but please be nice 😆 ) .. short answer: *no *

Let me explain, based on experiences with my 1st conversion, an early RHD smart car. This was ideal as small and quite light and with a massive hollow floor, designed for batteries - Lead acid in this case as Lithium was still too new and costly in those days.

The car cut out when my wife was diving – over a bumpy busy level crossing (railroad crossing in the US). Wife in panic mode  - luckily cool headed young son knew how to re-set. After 5000 miles and 4 years of being our (almost) free to run local family taxi - poor connections eventually turned ‘just switch on’ ease, into a ‘hunt the bad joint’ annoyance.

Lesson - I now only use waterproof control wiring with a minimum of crimped _*and*_ soldered connections, _*and*_ the minimum number of ‘safety’ cutouts.

IMHO reliability along with primary safety (eg power, brakes, handling) must trump_* multiple *_safety contactors and cut-out switches and especially crimped connectors.







... even the best lead acid AGM didn't last more than 2 years. and a PIA to change from underneath.
Mark, Dorset, UK


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## X19e (Nov 21, 2021)

Thank's for this question *pat_t*. Indeed the TUEV information sheet on 'electric vehicles in the individual approval procedure' says:
5.5 Voltage disconnection in the event of a crash
A disconnecting device shall be provided in the DC link of the electric drive system which, after a crash, makes it possible to de-energize the electrical lines or connections of the power circuit (HV) leading out of the energy storage system (REESS). If, in the case of vehicles with airbags, the disconnecting device is controlled by the vehicle's own crash trigger signal, then proof must be provided that this has no influence on the crash trigger signal. 
Until today I've planned to use a Maintenance Service Disconnect with integrated Fuse in each of my two battery packs. Opening them manually triggers via HVIL contacts the Interlock curcuit and that shut off the Main contactor. I did not plan to integrate contactors in each battery pack. That Crash Switch could be used to control those contactors. 
Would this be neccessary to meet the requirement of 'Voltage disconnection in the event of a crash'? I've translated the paragraph with deepl, but even in german and as an electric technician I'm not sure how this is meant.


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## asymptonic (Oct 14, 2021)

I'm planning to use one. If it's triggered by bumpy roads it's too sensitive imho. They should have specifications about the forces required to trigger them, and they have to be mounted in the correct (vertical) orientation.


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## remy_martian (Feb 4, 2019)

This reads to me as a first responder disconnectable capability, with an optional SRS automated disconnect.

_"...makes it possible to de-energize the electrical lines or connections of the power circuit (HV) leading out of the energy storage system (REESS)"_

That said, using the HVIL to open the main contactor fails the requirement, imo:

"_A disconnecting device shall be provided in the DC link of the electric drive system which, after a crash, makes it possible to *de-energize the electrical lines *or connections of the power circuit (HV) *leading out of the energy storage system* (REESS)."_

If you have your positive lead exiting the battery box and going to a junction box with your main contactor, which it sounds like you may be doing, you fail the requirement of ensuring there is no high voltage coming out of the battery box.

Further, since we don't chassis ground the negative side of the HV battery, you also need to disconnect the negative wire coming out of the battery box...because in a crash the positive side could short to the chassis.

The principle here is to ensure the first responder, trying to cut you out of that sorry home-converted car you put into a tree after having one too many at your office Christmas party, doesn't get electrocuted for trying to keep you alive or to get your remains into ziplock bags to give to your relatives 💀

😜

In summary, your manual or SRS-initiated HV kill needs to be in the battery box for both positive and negative HV leads coming out of the box.

And if you get clever with trying to put your HV junction box inside your battery box, you ALSO have to ensure other HV lines, like for AC compressors, is on the disconnected side of the disconnect, not the battery side.

Having a resettable device should also fail the safety requirement, since it could get reset by responders or vehicle occupants inadvertently.


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## 4Foxtrot (Apr 1, 2019)

At a DIY level (and to circle back to the 120-140v Hyper9) the EV west diagram has been used as the basis of many conversions ... 








It was my starting point on last project, having decided on relatively low voltage 120v, 5 x Tesla modules and a standard Hyper9.


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

Inertial switches are routinely used on production vehicles with engines (to shut off the fuel pump) and for collision safety systems; I've never heard of one tripping unintentionally, and it certainly has never happened to me. If nuisance shut-offs are a problem, I think that the fix is a better switch, rather than omitting a safety system.


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## pat_t (Dec 23, 2018)

Thanks for the thoughts all. I'm going to go ahead and use it. One other reason for me is that as well as UK-road-legal, I am building my car in the hope of one day using it for UK Club Motorsport, however regulations for the classification of non-OEM Electric Vehicles do not yet exist. To that end I'm following MSA blue book regulations where I can, I suspect such a switch will be stipulated, and it can also be used to trigger a green/red indicator light to signal to track marshals whether the system is "live" or not, as the hybrid electric vehicles in F1 and Le Mans etc already do.


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## X19e (Nov 21, 2021)

I always like to keep it simple and am fully aware that every connector, contactor or even a security device could fail or at least cause a lot of trouble in case of a malfunction. The other side is the safety of the complete system and the very common used claim 'state of the art' or better 'state of technology' by regulators. So I'm going to use an intertial switch, too. You get them for 30 €/$.

Next protection device somebody? What about an *Insulation monitoring device*?
State of the art? Sure, every electrical installation got it, because fuses can't cover this failure. I found this one Insulation monitoring device, but no price for it yet.
As always TUEV already covered the topic:
_4.4 An insulation fault between a single conductor and the cover/enclosure or body must not result in an immediate shock hazard when touched (one-fault tolerance)._ _An insulation monitoring system is state of the art and therefore recommended for monitoring electrical safety in the vehicle._


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## remy_martian (Feb 4, 2019)

I believe the way you interpret that is no leakage current from the HV battery to the chassis/box.

Current has to go from point A to Point B. A single insulation fault is point A.

The only way to get shocked is if there's leakage (or worse, a connection) between a different potential and the chassis or box which becomes point B. You need contact with A and B to become the wire through which current flows 💀


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## X19e (Nov 21, 2021)

To detect insulation failures before they result in a problem is a preventive measure that I don't want to miss in any electric installation above 48VDC. Maybe especially because it's me who is doing the conversion and I do not believe that I can anticipate all error cases. 
Bender, as 'Your partner for electrical safety' mentioned a VDE book about 'Electrical safety in electromobility' and I couldn't resists to order it. I always like to have a reference and collect arguments to have a safe stand in front of the TUEV engineer. Let's see if I'm more concerned than now after reading it.


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## remy_martian (Feb 4, 2019)

Again, the primary hazard is not a single fault insulation failure, but existing current leakage or a double insulation/isolation fault.

You can have an insulation failure (dead short to the chassis), and not have a shock hazard if there's no leakage or a secondary path to establish a potential difference.

This is why interlocks are so critical. Both potentials are present for contact when you pull a cover off.


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## Andronikos (10 mo ago)

Hey Guys,

I am new here! Excuse me if I post in the wrong section.
I am a member of a university team, building our second racing electric motorcycle. Our project is a little different than yours, but I believe we have some common grounds.We were previously using a sevcon gen4 size4, but looking to try something new. The only interesting choice I found available in Europe (non sevcon) is the Hyper Drive SME ACX1 but I have some second thoughts about this selection. Our motor is the 205W-08011-SSE which is a "Permanent Magnet Synchronous Machine" with a sin-cos encoder according to the manual. I have no doubt about the encoder, but I do not know about the PMSM, as I see that the hyper 9 set's motor is a SRIPM one. From what I found online, everyone is using this controller with the motor that comes with it and there is no info of anyone using it with any other motor (at least I have not found any). Also, no support from Dana-TM4 or NetGain. Do you think it would be possible to configure the controller to work with our motor?

Thank you in advance from any replies!


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## Zieg (10 mo ago)

Hi guys, I have a quick question about gearing. What kind of FDR are you typically using for this motor? I was hoping for around 9:1 (which would mean a wheel speed of 75 mph at 10,000 rpm), but then I noticed the 3,300 rpm maximum continuous rating (which would equate to 25 mph). Would that mean highway driving is out of the question?


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## asymptonic (Oct 14, 2021)

Zieg said:


> Hi guys, I have a quick question about gearing. What kind of FDR are you typically using for this motor? I was hoping for around 9:1 (which would mean a wheel speed of 75 mph at 10,000 rpm), but then I noticed the 3,300 rpm maximum continuous rating (which would equate to 25 mph). Would that mean highway driving is out of the question?


I'm not sure your math is quite right. 4th gear on the Jeep AX15 is direct drive, with a rear differential ratio of 3.07 I calculate 82mph at 3000RPM for 29" tires.


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## Zieg (10 mo ago)

asymptonic said:


> I'm not sure your math is quite right. 4th gear on the Jeep AX15 is direct drive, with a rear differential ratio of 3.07 I calculate 82mph at 3000RPM for 29" tires.


Ah, sorry, that was for my specific application. 4.56 gears on a 22.7" tall tire.


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## remy_martian (Feb 4, 2019)

Congrats on the golf cart top speed.


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## Zieg (10 mo ago)

How fast does yours go?


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## remy_martian (Feb 4, 2019)

I was confirming your math...


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## Zieg (10 mo ago)

Oh, okay, thanks. So anyway, how are other people gearing their Hyper 9s? Are they shooting for 3300rpm at highway speeds?


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## floydr (Jun 21, 2021)

Zieg said:


> a 22.7" tall tire.


Is that as tall of a tire you can fit on the lotus7 replica?





Tire Size, RPM, Speed, and Differential Ratio Calculator


Describes the process for converting a gasoline powered car to electric power



advanced-ev.com




Later floyd


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## Zieg (10 mo ago)

No, but the rest of the car is designed around that tire size. I can gear the rear end anywhere between 3.08 and 4.56, though. Depending on the characteristics of the motor I select, I may add a reduction at the motor end, which would give me even more options to play with.

After more searches on the topic, I think people may have been confused in the first set of posts I was reading. They were saying the max continuous RPM of the motor is 3300 but that may not be accurate. The datasheet says its max continuous power is 38 kW at 3300rpm. It may be just fine sustaining a lower power output at higher rpm. Going to call Netgain tomorrow to see if I can confirm that. Looks like I'd be drawing about 16kW at 60 mph according to a rolling/wind resistance calculator I found.


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## VintageVolts (Jul 7, 2020)

Somewhat Hyper9 related so am sticking my question here:
Regarding the AC-X1 controller, is CANbus cruise control possible? I see there are various generic CANbus cruise control stalks available e.g this one for motorhomes, but am unable to find anything about options in the TAU software relating to the AC-X1 receiving messages and being able to do an 'RPM hold'.

I haven't had any hands on experience with CANbus, so sorry if it's a sily question. No info in the AC-X1 manual and i can't do anything with the TAU software until i have a motor & controller sat in front of me


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## asymptonic (Oct 14, 2021)

I doubt it. You could try to do it yourself by electronically driving the throttle, but I can think of few things more dangerous.


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## poloLbricolo (Apr 1, 2019)

I haven't found my answer by using the search function so here is my question :
What is the temperature probe for the Hyper 9 ?










I've been using the KTY84-130/150 but it seems to report too high of a temperature when compared to an external probe.
Smart view reports 110°C when my external probe reports 40°C max.

Paul


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## SolevaAndreas (8 mo ago)

Dear all,

I have two questions regarding the continuous power and rotor speed:

i found in several locations that the continuous power is limited to 38-43 kW. Is this due to thermal overheating? And if so, can it be increased by proper cooling? How long can you remain above it, say at 55 kW?
I also found that the continuous rated speed is 3300 rpm. Why is this limited? What would happen in you continuously drive at 5000 rpm but at low torque (as to remain below the continuous power

Thanks!
For context: we are electrifying an old van (Peugeot J9), which will probably weight around 3000 kg in the end. We are however limited to the power of the original engine for homogolation reasons, which is 60 kW. The hyper 9 looks like a very good option if you look at nearly all specs, except the continuous power would be quite limiting when driving slightly uphill. Anyone has experience with such conversions and advice on motor options?


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## SolevaAndreas (8 mo ago)

Zieg said:


> No, but the rest of the car is designed around that tire size. I can gear the rear end anywhere between 3.08 and 4.56, though. Depending on the characteristics of the motor I select, I may add a reduction at the motor end, which would give me even more options to play with.
> 
> After more searches on the topic, I think people may have been confused in the first set of posts I was reading. They were saying the max continuous RPM of the motor is 3300 but that may not be accurate. The datasheet says its max continuous power is 38 kW at 3300rpm. It may be just fine sustaining a lower power output at higher rpm. Going to call Netgain tomorrow to see if I can confirm that. Looks like I'd be drawing about 16kW at 60 mph according to a rolling/wind resistance calculator I found.


Any update on the second part of this post?


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## 4Foxtrot (Apr 1, 2019)

SolevaAndreas said:


> Any update on the second part of this post?


Short Answer is .. it will be OK.

Longer Answer ... I'm sure a forum veteran will jump in, but with* adequate Inverter cooling* (the weaker link) pulling a much higher kW for long periods of time will be OK.
Without controller cooling ie cooling plate, water pump and radiator, probably not.

The motor itself is air cooled, and in my experience never seems to get hot, however it would be sensible to have at least a good air flow at vehicle speed, a fan is probably not needed.

These temperatures can be monitored continuously via the compact display or a laptop.

Finally - if you keep the gearbox - it will pull the Old Van OK, but dont expect to be doing any hot laps on track


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## electric_jeep (Jan 29, 2020)

I can chime in here on. I have the Hyper 9 DHV setup with active cooling of the controller via chill plate. I have it running to an ATV size radiator and I never have to activate the fan. The controller stays cool throughout (35-40C).

The motor, on the other hand, at 55mph speeds or during spirited acceleration gets up to 130C-140C, very close to the thermal cutoff, which has been quite surprising. I wonder if I’m getting no airflow where the motor is mounted, but definitely something I’m trying to figure out now.

At 55mph, I’m pulling 150-200A (4th gear at 2,500rpm s) to maintain speed. I am in a Jeep, which is an aerodynamic brick, but it’s surprising. I’m checking everything from motor back, including driveline, transmission, gearing, and brakes for any drag. It just doesn’t seem right. During this time, that is when the motor temp shoots up.



4Foxtrot said:


> Short Answer is .. it will be OK.
> 
> Longer Answer ... I'm sure a forum veteran will jump in, but with* adequate Inverter cooling* (the weaker link) pulling a much higher kW for long periods of time will be OK.
> Without controller cooling ie cooling plate, water pump and radiator, probably not.
> ...


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## asymptonic (Oct 14, 2021)

Do you have a transmission? What RPM is the motor doing at 55mph?


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## electric_jeep (Jan 29, 2020)

asymptonic said:


> Do you have a transmission? What RPM is the motor doing at 55mph?


I have a 6MT, I’m at around 2000rpm @ 4th gear at 55mph, give or take. I’m gonna try to run a controlled test (ie: 5 min on same stretch of Highway and same weather and record temp buildup.) And then do same with an air duct as I have a theory my hyper 9 is getting limited airflow based on radiator position and other parts.


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## remy_martian (Feb 4, 2019)

You shouldn't be in 4th gear is where I think you have the problem. You're driving it like an ICE, which is bad.

Drop it into 3rd, do not ever use 4th, at 55mph and give us the readings, including motor RPM and temperatures.


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## electric_jeep (Jan 29, 2020)

remy_martian said:


> You shouldn't be in 4th gear is where I think you have the problem. You're driving it like an ICE, which is bad.
> 
> Drop it into 3rd, do not ever use 4th, at 55mph and give us the readings, including motor RPM and temperatures.


So here is where I’m at. 
1. I discovered the previous owner upgraded 27” to 31.5” tires and didn’t regear. The 3.07 axel ratio was already a dog - so I believe that’s my first problem. Conventional wisdom is to up that to 4.56 with a regear but that’s based on performance characteristics of the original ICE. Given the torque curve of the Hyper 9 and the shift points of the 6MT, I think this would be my first step to get snappy acceleration (a separate thing I’m contending with)
2. So because of #1, the PO also didn’t change the speedometer my Speedo has been ~10% off! Just checked with a GPS speedo.
3. So given that, here are my findings using the real speed. Note 3rd gear at 55mph is around 3100rpms.

is it right to say that given the efficiency of the motor, I can pull to 5000rpms without loss of efficiency? I thought hyper 9 did not want to be at anything more that 3300rpm continuous. I have not found specs on how many RPMs the transmission can tolerate so I’ve been software limiting it to current ICE redline of 5500rpm and shift at 4000rpm usually.

In terms of temp readings, in 3rd gear the motor definitely seemed less bogged down and I wasn’t running it too hard and for too long so couldn’t take an apples to apples temp reading did did seem cooler. I’ll try driving it differently and noting temp characteristics. It’s also been crazy hot - in the whole country it seems.


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## remy_martian (Feb 4, 2019)

You're all over the place. Data first. f*ck GPS speed.

What are these numbers at the same indicated speed in 3rd:

"At 55mph, I’m pulling 150-200A (4th gear at 2,500rpm s) to maintain speed."...."130C-140C"


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## 4Foxtrot (Apr 1, 2019)

To add to data points with quite a few miles on the Hyper9 with standard Gearbox (3.77 diff and 13" tyres FWIW , but only 650kg / 1430lbs to pull).
I'm finding most of the time I'm in top gear 1:1.
The hyper 9 has enough torque to be able to pull away smoothly from zero in top gear... but I dont expect to win any drag races.
If I know I need a swift getaway, eg entering fast moving traffic etc I might select 3rd gear for a smooth fast getaway, or even 2nd for a very fast getaway - being careful to avoid wheel spinning (Colin Chapman did not like LSD's as he thought they spoil Lotus balance at speed). Never use 1st gear unless I want to leave a skid marks and smoke !!
In top gear, once the speed gets to 20-30mph there is little point in using 3rd or lower gears.
Top gear then benefits from the lovely fat Hyper9 torque band ~ 1000rpm tho to ~5000 rpm (or over 100mph)
3rd will rev to 8000 but the torque drops off at about 5000 - and top is faster due to staying in the torque band.

There are some lovely quiet country roads in Dorset on my commute - Top gear is just perfect for these - I get to concentrate on the steering and handling without the need to think about interupting this without changing gears.

All this was learning for me as I assumed (wrongly) that the lower gearing in 3rd would give better acceleration in the 50+ mph region than higher geared 4th but turns out the *torque* advantage (as below) was more important and 100kW power misleading










Cross posted in 'Lotus Elon'


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## remy_martian (Feb 4, 2019)

Gearbox works with HP, trading speed for torque. 

It's the HP (torque at speed) that drops off after 5000rpm, not the torque which drops after 3500rpm. You get the most force on the car for acceleration when the gearing operates it at peak HP.

The power is not misleading, your seat of the pants interpretation of the chart is.


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## cjfernandes (6 mo ago)

Can anyone advise if its safe to weld my motor mounts with the motor and controller installed? (Its an EV Europe 'hyper 9' with the controller built into the 'box' on the motor. All connections removed where possible. Should I make sure the motor casing is well grounded. Obviously following usual procedure of making sure my ground clamp is as close as possible to the weld area. Dont want to fry anything. Thanks.


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## Jeep Man (Sep 21, 2021)

*Hyper9 CAN Protocol?*

(taken from the Technical Discussion - Hyper9 CAN Protocol? )

I'm trying to integrate the Hyper9-HV with the AEM CD-7 on my Jeep CJ-7 build.

*Does anybody have the Hyper9 CAN Protocol?*

This usually comes in a .dbc file format, if that helps.

*Thanks in advance for ANY help with this*,
- Patrick


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## MoonUnit (Jun 29, 2019)

Jeep Man said:


> *Hyper9 CAN Protocol?*
> 
> (taken from the Technical Discussion - Hyper9 CAN Protocol? )
> 
> ...


I'm not sure there is one. The software in the Hyper9 controller lets you set up CAN messages in a format you choose, so it's up to you how it sends them and thus up to you how you decode them.

This site has a demo dbc file decoder:









CAN DBC File Explained - A Simple Intro [+Editor Playground]


What is a CAN DBC file? In this simple intro we explain the CAN database syntax incl. practical J1939/OBD2 examples and an online editor playground - learn more!




www.csselectronics.com





I would guess you set up your CAN message at the ACX1 and then make a dbc file to match it for the AEM.

Let us know how you get on, I'm curious to know more.


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## 4Foxtrot (Apr 1, 2019)

Another Data point - Recently after a lot of very hilly driving, involving loads of Regen, the regen began to 'stutter' and cut in and out, and then stop working.
I was worried that something had fried - worst case something in the AX1 - as all the wiring, and regen signals were OK. 😲

The fault foxed me for a few days .......................

It turned out that the regen was fine, but the throttle pedal zero had drifted slightly ! Who'd of thought, Last thing I expected. The normally uber reliable Toyota (Prius pedal) had used up the dead travel 'margin' left in the Hyper9 / TAU software throttle map. Grateful to be able to tweak the map, add some more margin around 0% throttle signal and its now back to full regen (45% normal 75% with brakes and 0% to change gear).


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## MoonUnit (Jun 29, 2019)

4Foxtrot said:


> Another Data point - Recently after a lot of very hilly driving, involving loads of Regen, the regen began to 'stutter' and cut in and out - I was worried that something had fried something, worst case something in the AX1 - as all the wiring, and regen signals were OK. 😲
> 
> The fault foxed me for a few days .......................
> 
> It turned out that the regen was fine, but the throttle pedal zero had drifted slightly ! Who'd of thought, Last thing I expected. The normally uber reliable Toyota (Prius pedal) had used up the 1% 'margin' left in the Hyper9 / TAU software throttle map. Grateful to be able to tweak the map, add some more margin around 0% throttle signal and its now back to full regen (45% normal 75% with brakes and 0% to change gear).


That's interesting. I have something similar to 'stuttering' if I come off the throttle and change down a gear. The regen kicks in and out, but a slight blip on the throttle seems to reset it and I can then slow to a halt without any stuttering. I have regen on neutral set, so regen kicks in once I am off throttle. Hunter has suggested a clutch switch but hasn't explained what he means - presumably he means grounding K1-7 thus breaking Forward or Reverse (K1-5, and K1-6). I do have some margin in the throttle map and maybe more would fix it.

When you change gear, does your switch ground K1-7 (clutch) or does it engage a profile with zero regen set? I think it's the latter?


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## 4Foxtrot (Apr 1, 2019)

MoonUnit said:


> That's interesting. I have something similar to 'stuttering' if I come off the throttle and change down a gear. The regen kicks in and out, but a slight blip on the throttle seems to reset it and I can then slow to a halt without any stuttering. I have regen on neutral set, so regen kicks in once I am off throttle. Hunter has suggested a clutch switch but hasn't explained what he means - presumably he means grounding K1-7 thus breaking Forward or Reverse (K1-5, and K1-6). I do have some margin in the throttle map and maybe more would fix it.
> 
> When you change gear, does your switch ground K1-7 (clutch) or does it engage a profile with zero regen set? I think it's the latter?


If it helps .. I use switches (and set software to use their signals - ( but unlike you I'm no good as a canBUS snifter  )

K1-7 digital hi-lo (Basic Regen profile),
K1-18 digital hi-lo (Extra Regen on brake profile),
Brake light switch & relay (brake on), and
Gear Knob button (regen off profile, to change gear),
In various combinations, to get Regen Off, regen and extra regen


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## Woolf (Nov 4, 2019)

Great thread! This has been so useful as I'm about to upgrade my Beetle's DC conversion to a Hyper 9HV.

I have a question about the included contactor - is it essential to use it?

I already have contactors in the battery pack and one has a Zeva Smart Precharger, so I guess I'd have to remove or bypass this if the X144 needed to control the precharge itself?


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## agmatthews (Oct 5, 2018)

Woolf said:


> Great thread! This has been so useful as I'm about to upgrade my Beetle's DC conversion to a Hyper 9HV.
> 
> I have a question about the included contactor - is it essential to use it?
> 
> I already have contactors in the battery pack and one has a Zeva Smart Precharger, so I guess I'd have to remove or bypass this if the X144 needed to control the precharge itself?


If you have the Hyper9HV (X144 controller) then you need to supply battery positive to the precharge terminal on the controller before you close the contactors and supply HV battery voltage to the B+ and B- terminals. Netgain supplies a relay for this purpose.
Personally I switch the precharge relay and a negative contactor with the 12V 'ignition' signal from the vehicle, and the X144 controller then switches the positive side contactor after I send a 'start' signal. 
-A


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## Woolf (Nov 4, 2019)

agmatthews said:


> If you have the Hyper9HV (X144 controller) then you need to supply battery positive to the precharge terminal on the controller before you close the contactors and supply HV battery voltage to the B+ and B- terminals. Netgain supplies a relay for this purpose.
> Personally I switch the precharge relay and a negative contactor with the 12V 'ignition' signal from the vehicle, and the X144 controller then switches the positive side contactor after I send a 'start' signal.
> -A


Thanks A

I still can't understand the logic for needing it, as B+ is seeing battery voltage as soon as the main contactor(s) are closed anyway. 
I was hoping that I wouldn't need to run another HV cable all the way to the front of the car to tap the power before the main contactor.


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## Jeep Man (Sep 21, 2021)

Woolf said:


> Thanks A
> 
> I still can't understand the logic for needing it, as B+ is seeing battery voltage as soon as the main contactor(s) are closed anyway.
> I was hoping that I wouldn't need to run another HV cable all the way to the front of the car to tap the power before the main contactor.
> ...


He said it above, Precharge B+ is a 18awg wire, about 12" (or less) long, from your HB bus side. That bus is energized with 'key on'. Precharge is sometimes misunderstood to mean fully charged - it's not and in the case of the Hyper9HV, it's just a a tiny bolt connector on the SME inverter. Also, this drawing, the some one I have on my Hyper9HV diagram shows a fuse. None is listed after it mentions it so unless anyone has an objection, I left it out.


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## Woolf (Nov 4, 2019)

Jeep Man said:


> He said it above, Precharge B+ is a 18awg wire, about 12" (or less) long, from your HB bus side. That bus is energized with 'key on'. Precharge is sometimes misunderstood to mean fully charged - it's not and in the case of the Hyper9HV, it's just a a tiny bolt connector on the SME inverter. Also, this drawing, the some one I have on my Hyper9HV diagram shows a fuse. None is listed after it mentions it so unless anyone has an objection, I left it out.


Ah, it's starting to make sense. It's not a precharge for the traction power (as is needed for most controllers) but for some internal usage.
I'm not sure where you got the 12" length for the cable? Doesn't it need to connect before the main contactor?


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## agmatthews (Oct 5, 2018)

Jeep Man said:


> He said it above, Precharge B+ is a 18awg wire, about 12" (or less) long, from your HB bus side. That bus is energized with 'key on'. Precharge is sometimes misunderstood to mean fully charged - it's not and in the case of the Hyper9HV, it's just a a tiny bolt connector on the SME inverter. Also, this drawing, the some one I have on my Hyper9HV diagram shows a fuse. None is listed after it mentions it so unless anyone has an objection, I left it out.


You only need the fuse to protect the wire to the precharge terminal, so if your precharge and contractors are all in a box and adjacent to your controller then your wire is your fuse. 
On the other hand if your wire is a long run from the front to the rear of the car (as per Mr Woolf) then you would be wise to fuse that wire to avoid an argument with your future self, after something unforeseen let’s the sparks out.
A


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## Woolf (Nov 4, 2019)

I've just realised that I probably amde a mistake reading Netgain's wiring diagram!

I assumed the "main contactor" would be the one I already have on my battery pack, and that the "HV Relay" was the contactor that Netgain includes in the kit.

I now think that they may mean the kit contactor is the main contactor, but then what is the HV relay? And why?


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## agmatthews (Oct 5, 2018)

Woolf said:


> I've just realised that I probably amde a mistake reading Netgain's wiring diagram!
> 
> I assumed the "main contactor" would be the one I already have on my battery pack, and that the "HV Relay" was the contactor that Netgain includes in the kit.
> 
> ...


The relay is just that, a relay - one capable of switching your DC battery voltage at a few amps
In the image below the relay supplied by netgain is at the bottom (contractor at the top)
In my setup the relay coil is supplied 12V when the key switch is turned to ‘ignition’ this closes the relay and precharges the controller. 
A seperate signal (turning the key one more click) is then sent to controller by grounding the K1 key switch input to signal that it needs to start - it will then close the contractor and off you go.
A


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## Woolf (Nov 4, 2019)

agmatthews said:


> The relay is just that, a relay - one capable of switching your DC battery voltage at a few amps
> In the image below the relay supplied by netgain is at the bottom (contractor at the top)
> In my setup the relay coil is supplied 12V when the key switch is turned to ‘ignition’ this closes the relay and precharges the controller.
> A seperate signal (turning the key one more click) is then sent to controller by grounding the K1 key switch input to signal that it needs to start - it will then close the contractor and off you go.
> ...


Many thanks for the explanation A, I understand now that the HV relay just keeps the pack voltage away from the controller until the ignition is on - a wise idea!

I think I can skip this relay as I already have contactors in the battery pack, and all I need to do is delete my existing Zeva precharger.


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## remy_martian (Feb 4, 2019)

No. The precharge ("HV relay") relay goes on first in order to charge capacitors in the controller. After they are charged, after one to four seconds usually, you close the main contactor.

If you don't do this sequence you can either blow up the controller caps or weld the contactors.

If you have contactors in the pack, you can switch those on after the HV relay has been closed first. The HV relay is not optional - you can't "skip" it unless you're looking for an excuse to spend a lot more money.


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## remy_martian (Feb 4, 2019)

agmatthews said:


> You only need the fuse to protect the wire to the precharge terminal


This is incorrect. The fuse in the diagram protects the large cable. 

You NEVER use vehicle wiring as a fuse, especially HV wiring.


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## Woolf (Nov 4, 2019)

remy_martian said:


> No. The precharge ("HV relay") relay goes on first in order to charge capacitors in the controller. After they are charged, after one to four seconds usually, you close the main contactor.
> 
> If you don't do this sequence you can either blow up the controller caps or weld the contactors.
> 
> If you have contactors in the pack, you can switch those on after the HV relay has been closed first. The HV relay is not optional - you can't "skip" it unless you're looking for an excuse to spend a lot more money.


I think that's what I'll achieve by using the pack contactor.

Ignition on - pack contactors close - power goes to one side of the main contactor and also to the precharge terminal - the controller confirms precharge and closes main contactor.

Am I missing something? It looks like they added the HV relay to their diagram in their latest revision as they don't plan for any pack contactors.


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## remy_martian (Feb 4, 2019)

That should work


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## agmatthews (Oct 5, 2018)

remy_martian said:


> This is incorrect. The fuse in the diagram protects the large cable.
> 
> You NEVER use vehicle wiring as a fuse, especially HV wiring.


Remy,
You are right, I was working on the assumption that the main pack fuse was the first item connected to the battery positive (as required by national standards here in Australia), if you wire things up as per the netgain diagram then the cabling to the battery positive is vulnerable.
The point I was trying to make is that the fuse protects the wire it is connected to, and if you don’t have one then your wire can become your fuse, and that is not always a good thing.
A


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## X19e (Nov 21, 2021)

I just realized the big difference between the X1 and the X144 inverter: the missing B+ precharge input. Does that mean the input capacity of the X1 is low enough to operate a contactor without any damage or maybe they have an internal solution for it?
I didn't find any precharge relay on the various schematics that are available (EVWest, Netgain, EVShop, ...). I do have have contactors B+ and B+ in the pack and a precharge relay inside.
The start sequence for X1:
1. Key switch on: pack B- contact closed, precharge relay closed, main contactor closed - _wait 1...4 sec_
2. close pack B+ and open precharge relay -> ready to go
Would be much easier if X1 handles the precharge internally. Can I get rid of it?
There is still the DC/DC converter with additional input capacity. I saw several solutions with a contactor for the HV input of the converter. This stops converting to 12 V and draining the HV battery if the key switch is off. Having them in the pack does eliminate the need for it or is there another usecase I haven't seen?
Charging will need pack B+ and B- closed and supplies the converter, but with the ENABLE input of the ELCON TDC-IY converter the operation could be controlled (not sure if always on at charging is a good idea) . The MAIN contactor will stay open.


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## MoonUnit (Jun 29, 2019)

X19e said:


> Would be much easier if X1 handles the precharge internally. Can I get rid of it?


From memory (so check this yourself!!) the low voltage X1 does the pre-charging for you. You use a relay (which I think Netgain supplied me with) to connect HV to pin K1-24, Key Switch In on the ACX1 when you turn on your ignition switch. You also use the pins K1-25 and K-26 Coil return and driver which control the main Gigavac contactor that connects the power to the controller. 

When you operate the ignition switch, the controller sees HV at pin 24, does some pre-charging, and then opens the main contactor.


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