# [EVDL] Electrics snowbound in traffic?



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Our rush hour near-blizzard this week left many commuters on the road for 4=
, 6, or even 8 hours. Clearly this would have been difficult in an electric=
, presumably relying on resistance heating. A Leaf might well have drain=
ed its batteries in the first several hours. Cars abandoned in that tie-up =
cost owners $350 to recover! So I recall my former VW van that had the g=
asoline-fired 'furnace'-- a burner with heat exchanger and fan-circulated c=
lean air. While I don't expect hobbyists to resolve this problem, it wou=
ld seem incumbent on Nissan and any later entrants into the all-electric ma=
rket to offer a solution similar to that offered by VW for 40 years-- altho=
ugh perhaps using compressed gas, not gasoline. Other opinions??





=

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> L. Chris Hager wrote:
> > Our rush hour near-blizzard this week left many commuters on the road
> > for 4, 6, or even 8 hours. Clearly this would have been difficult in
> > an electric, presumably relying on resistance heating.
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Gas cars have the same problem. If you idle the engine to keep warm, after a few hours you run out of gas.
damon

> Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2011 15:29:37 -0800
> From: [email protected]
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: [EVDL] Electrics snowbound in traffic?
> 
> Our rush hour near-blizzard this week left many commuters on the road for 4, 6, or even 8 hours. Clearly this would have been difficult in an electric, presumably relying on resistance heating. A Leaf might well have drained its batteries in the first several hours. Cars abandoned in that tie-up cost owners $350 to recover! So I recall my former VW van that had the gasoline-fired 'furnace'-- a burner with heat exchanger and fan-circulated clean air. While I don't expect hobbyists to resolve this problem, it would seem incumbent on Nissan and any later entrants into the all-electric market to offer a solution similar to that offered by VW for 40 years-- although perhaps using compressed gas, not gasoline. Other opinions??
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

400 W is enoungh to keep the cab of my little pickup warm in 0*F 
weather.





> Lee Hart <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> > L. Chris Hager wrote:
> >> Our rush hour near-blizzard this week left many commuters on the road
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

I have advocated that EVs have small gasoline or propane heaters to avoid
exactly this scenario. While heating and cooling take similar amounts of
energy, heating is MUCH more important: air conditioning is seldom actually
necessary (unitl 1960 automobile air conditioning was almost unknown and
people had been driving for over 50 years), and slow traffic is much more
likely in snow and ice when heating for long periods of time is needed.

In a previous thread several months ago I calculated the actual amount of
fuel that would be needed for, say, 12,000 miles per year travel. To my
surprise, the amount of gasoline proved to astonishingly small: an average
of 2-3 gallons per YEAR. Even in a climate like Michigan, you would likely
need only 5-6 gallons per year (at 12,000 miles/year). This is 100-200
times less fuel than needed to run an ICE car.

So the BENEFIT is that, even in very cold weather, an EV would behave as it
does near room temperature, while the COST is trivial: typically
$6-$9/year. This is a very small price to insure that the stranded EV
scenario (which might produce a major backlash against EVs if lots of other
motorists got stranded because of a few disabled EVs blocking the road) does
not happen.

I really wish the EV manufacturers would realize this and include these
heaters as a standard part of an EV.

-- Larry Gales

On Sat, Jan 29, 2011 at 3:29 PM, L. Chris Hager


> <[email protected]>wrote:
> 
> > Our rush hour near-blizzard this week left many commuters on the road for
> > 4, 6, or even 8 hours. Clearly this would have been difficult in an
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Burr,
For those ill equipped for cold weather travel, I recommend a two globe
"Coleman" butane camping lantern (Two for a van.) a one pound butane can
lasts several hours and produces heat equivalent to several hundred watts.
It is all we used to warm the tent when camping in snow country. Not very
expensive, handy during power outages as lighting too. Butane never gets old
like gas does. In a car you must allow a trickle of fresh air as CO2 is
produced (NO carbon monoxide) but CO2 at above 3% is toxic also. My friend
used a butane powered "Catalytic Heater" no flame but lots of heat. But my
Father just used a gasoline fueled blowtorch to heat his truck in
Pennsylvania while awaiting the next load. (He delivered coal to homes from
a nearby coal mine 70 years ago.)

Regards,
*Dennis Lee Miles* (Director) *E.V.T.I. inc*.
*www.E-V-T-I-Inc.COM <http://www.e-v-t-i-inc.com/> *(Adviser)*
EVTI-EVAEducation Chapter
*
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
The "Stone Age" didn't end because they ran out of Stones;
It ended because they started using their Brains !
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++



> Lee Hart <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> > On 1/29/2011 9:47 PM, Larry Gales wrote:
> > > I have advocated that EVs have small gasoline or propane heaters to avoid
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Keeping EV warm is easier than ICE ones. When it drops below -25C
(-13F) you tend to wear clothes that keep you warm anyway regardless
how the car performs.

It's important to keep the heat where it's needed. Heated windshield
and seats are already quite enough. They will not draw more than few
hundred W at best.

If you heat the cabin air over zero and you have all that snow inside
and it melts.. you'll have all that water vapor sticking to windows.
So it's better to stay a bit below zero then.

Insulation is key word. I close the exhale vents from the rear of the
car so the warm air would not be blown a way that easily. Then even
your own body heat helps to maintain the heat inside the cabin.

There should be heat pumps available for conversions but I have not
yet used one in my cars. I intend to try out some sets during this
year. I believe that the heat exchanger (preheat the incoming air with
the warm exhaust air) and heat pump combination would do a difference.

My needs might be on the harsher end of the scale due the fact that
it's about half of the year we need to fight the cold out here.

-Jukka

http://www.google.com/profiles/jarviju#about



2011/1/30 Dennis Miles <[email protected]>:
> Burr,
> For those ill equipped for cold weather travel, I recommend a two=
globe
> "Coleman" butane camping lantern (Two for a van.) a one pound butane can
> lasts several hours and produces heat equivalent to several hundred watts.
> It is all we used to warm the tent when camping in snow country. Not very
> expensive, handy during power outages as lighting too. Butane never gets =
old
> like gas does. In a car you must allow a trickle of fresh air as CO2 is
> produced (NO carbon monoxide) but CO2 at above 3% is toxic also. My fr=
iend
> used a butane powered "Catalytic Heater" no flame but lots of heat. But my
> Father just used a gasoline fueled blowtorch to heat his truck in
> Pennsylvania while awaiting the next load. (He delivered coal to homes fr=
om
> a nearby coal mine 70 years ago.)
>
> Regards,
> *Dennis Lee Miles* (Director) *E.V.T.I. inc*.
> *www.E-V-T-I-Inc.COM <http://www.e-v-t-i-inc.com/> *(Adviser)*
> EVTI-EVAEducation Chapter
> *
> ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
> The "Stone Age" didn't end because they ran out of Stones;
> It ended because they started using their Brains !
> +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
>
>


> Lee Hart <[email protected]> wrote:
> >
> >> On 1/29/2011 9:47 PM, Larry Gales wrote:
> >> > I have advocated that EVs have small gasoline or propane heaters to av=
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Ah - warmth! There's a thing I've been sorely missing this last few =

weeks here in the - unusually cold - UK, driving my eVan about. I =

have a Webasto ThermoTop V diesel heater that came from a Range Rover =

off eBay but STILL have not got round to installing it. There were =

some issues with controlling it as it uses a whacky bus-type protocol =

rather than just an on/off switch but in truth I just have been too =

busy with other things. I also have a mains fan heater on a timer =

which pre-heats the cabin for 30 mins or so to take the edge off =

things and find the heat lasts well enough for my 30 min commute.

It sounds a bit counter productive putting a fossil fueled heater in =

an EV, I know, but it is much more sensible in practical terms than =

using the pack energy at the moment with the relatively low energy =

density of affordable, new battery tech. They come in air heating or =

water heating flavours - mine is the latter and just connects directly =

to the existing heater matrix .... ebay 190494007675

http://cgi.ebay.de/Webasto-ThermoTop-V-Zuheizer-Diesel-zB-Touran-/190494007=
675?pt=3DAutoteile_Zubeh=F6r&hash=3Ditem2c5a53e17b#ht_500wt_1146

obviating the need for any other control stuff than a very simple dash =

mounted switch unit... eBay 220731712248

http://cgi.ebay.de/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3D220731712248&ru=3Dhttp%=
3A%2F%2Fshop.ebay.de%3A80%2F%3F_from%3DR40%26_trksid%3Dm570%26_nkw%3D220731=
712248%26_fvi%3D1&_rdc=3D1#ht_500wt_1146

Anyway, this thread reminded me of a thought I had a while back... why =

not (shock, horror) insulate the car... the car itself mind, not just =

the batteries? Use some of that silvered bubble wrap stuff and line =

all the insides if the panels of the vehicle with it, including the =

roof and floor. It is supposed to have the equivalent insulative =

value of 50mm (2") of polystyrene and wouldn't add much weight or bulk =

(its about 6mm (1/4" thick). I guess it would work a lot better in a =

plastic body than steel or alu - all that thermal bridging would not =

help. And of course, there's double glazing for the windows... next =

year, perhaps.

http://www.screwfix.com/prods/21112/Building/Roofing-Insulation/Airtec-Doub=
le-Insulation-1-05m-x-25m

Regards, Martin Winlow
Herts, UK
http://www.evalbum.com/2092
www.winlow.co.uk




> L. Chris Hager wrote:
> 
> > Our rush hour near-blizzard this week left many commuters on the =
> 
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

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aW5mby9ldgo=


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

According to Nissan's own figures, driving slowly in cold weather and using
electric power to heat the vehicle can reduce the range of the Leaf by
nearly 40%, so this is a serious issue. Note that in addition to the
passengers, the battery also must be warmed, and while LiON batteries are
not affected as much as Lead Acid, cold weather still takes a toll. Burning
a mere 2-3 gallons of gas/propane/etc a year seems like a very small price
to insure that cold weather has little affect on an EV and will prevent the
spate of stalled EVs that might produce a backlash against EVs.

-- Larry

2011/1/30 Jukka J=E4rvinen <[email protected]>

> Keeping EV warm is easier than ICE ones. When it drops below -25C
> (-13F) you tend to wear clothes that keep you warm anyway regardless
> how the car performs.
>
> It's important to keep the heat where it's needed. Heated windshield
> and seats are already quite enough. They will not draw more than few
> hundred W at best.
>
> If you heat the cabin air over zero and you have all that snow inside
> and it melts.. you'll have all that water vapor sticking to windows.
> So it's better to stay a bit below zero then.
>
> Insulation is key word. I close the exhale vents from the rear of the
> car so the warm air would not be blown a way that easily. Then even
> your own body heat helps to maintain the heat inside the cabin.
>
> There should be heat pumps available for conversions but I have not
> yet used one in my cars. I intend to try out some sets during this
> year. I believe that the heat exchanger (preheat the incoming air with
> the warm exhaust air) and heat pump combination would do a difference.
>
> My needs might be on the harsher end of the scale due the fact that
> it's about half of the year we need to fight the cold out here.
>
> -Jukka
>
> http://www.google.com/profiles/jarviju#about
>
>
>
> 2011/1/30 Dennis Miles <[email protected]>:
> > Burr,
> > For those ill equipped for cold weather travel, I recommend a two
> globe
> > "Coleman" butane camping lantern (Two for a van.) a one pound butane can
> > lasts several hours and produces heat equivalent to several hundred
> watts.
> > It is all we used to warm the tent when camping in snow country. Not ve=
ry
> > expensive, handy during power outages as lighting too. Butane never gets
> old
> > like gas does. In a car you must allow a trickle of fresh air as CO2 is
> > produced (NO carbon monoxide) but CO2 at above 3% is toxic also. My
> friend
> > used a butane powered "Catalytic Heater" no flame but lots of heat. But
> my
> > Father just used a gasoline fueled blowtorch to heat his truck in
> > Pennsylvania while awaiting the next load. (He delivered coal to homes
> from
> > a nearby coal mine 70 years ago.)
> >
> > Regards,
> > *Dennis Lee Miles* (Director) *E.V.T.I. inc*.
> > *www.E-V-T-I-Inc.COM <http://www.e-v-t-i-inc.com/> *(Adviser)*
> > EVTI-EVAEducation Chapter
> > *
> > ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
> > The "Stone Age" didn't end because they ran out of Stones;
> > It ended because they started using their Brains !
> > +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
> >
> > On Sun, Jan 30, 2011 at 12:13 AM, Lee Hart <[email protected]>


> > wrote:
> > >
> > >> On 1/29/2011 9:47 PM, Larry Gales wrote:
> > >> > I have advocated that EVs have small gasoline or propane heaters to
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Then make it part of an optional cold-weather package like block
heaters on ICE vehicles. Those of us in reasonable climates don't
need the weight, complexity, cost or hazard of carrying liquid fuels
in our EVs.

Tim

----
Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2011 20:35:58 -0800
From: Larry Gales <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Electrics snowbound in traffic?

According to Nissan's own figures, driving slowly in cold weather and using
electric power to heat the vehicle can reduce the range of the Leaf by
nearly 40%, so this is a serious issue. Note that in addition to the
passengers, the battery also must be warmed, and while LiON batteries are
not affected as much as Lead Acid, cold weather still takes a toll. Burning
a mere 2-3 gallons of gas/propane/etc a year seems like a very small price
to insure that cold weather has little affect on an EV and will prevent the
spate of stalled EVs that might produce a backlash against EVs.

_______________________________________________
| REPLYING: address your message to [email protected] only.
| Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
| UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
| OTHER HELP: http://evdl.org/help/
| OPTIONS: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

There are cab heaters for trucks for when the drivers are sleeping.
The smallest one I found is 850 watts, burns 0.1 liter/hour of diesel
and draws 8 watts of electricity for the fan.
http://www.espar.com/html/products/technology_air.html

Mike-



> Tim Clevenger <[email protected]> wrote:
> > Then make it part of an optional cold-weather package like block
> > heaters on ICE vehicles. Those of us in reasonable climates don't
> > need the weight, complexity, cost or hazard of carrying liquid fuels
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

I found that while twiking on on snow/icy roads IS quite fun, more than the=
cold the increased rolling resistance takes a huge toll on the battery ran=
ge as high efficiency vehicles depend on being able to roll/coast, and that=
just doesn't happen in unplowed (or poorly plowed) roads, with snow/ice bu=
ildup on the tires/wheel wells, and of course sluggish lubricants...

M@

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behal=
f Of Larry Gales
Sent: Wednesday, February 02, 2011 10:36 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List; SEVA
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Electrics snowbound in traffic?

According to Nissan's own figures, driving slowly in cold weather and using
electric power to heat the vehicle can reduce the range of the Leaf by
nearly 40%, so this is a serious issue. Note that in addition to the
passengers, the battery also must be warmed, and while LiON batteries are
not affected as much as Lead Acid, cold weather still takes a toll. Burning
a mere 2-3 gallons of gas/propane/etc a year seems like a very small price
to insure that cold weather has little affect on an EV and will prevent the
spate of stalled EVs that might produce a backlash against EVs.

-- Larry

2011/1/30 Jukka J=E4rvinen <[email protected]>

> Keeping EV warm is easier than ICE ones. When it drops below -25C
> (-13F) you tend to wear clothes that keep you warm anyway regardless
> how the car performs.
>
> It's important to keep the heat where it's needed. Heated windshield
> and seats are already quite enough. They will not draw more than few
> hundred W at best.
>
> If you heat the cabin air over zero and you have all that snow inside
> and it melts.. you'll have all that water vapor sticking to windows.
> So it's better to stay a bit below zero then.
>
> Insulation is key word. I close the exhale vents from the rear of the
> car so the warm air would not be blown a way that easily. Then even
> your own body heat helps to maintain the heat inside the cabin.
>
> There should be heat pumps available for conversions but I have not
> yet used one in my cars. I intend to try out some sets during this
> year. I believe that the heat exchanger (preheat the incoming air with
> the warm exhaust air) and heat pump combination would do a difference.
>
> My needs might be on the harsher end of the scale due the fact that
> it's about half of the year we need to fight the cold out here.
>
> -Jukka
>
> http://www.google.com/profiles/jarviju#about
>
>
>
> 2011/1/30 Dennis Miles <[email protected]>:
> > Burr,
> > For those ill equipped for cold weather travel, I recommend a two
> globe
> > "Coleman" butane camping lantern (Two for a van.) a one pound butane can
> > lasts several hours and produces heat equivalent to several hundred
> watts.
> > It is all we used to warm the tent when camping in snow country. Not ve=
ry
> > expensive, handy during power outages as lighting too. Butane never gets
> old
> > like gas does. In a car you must allow a trickle of fresh air as CO2 is
> > produced (NO carbon monoxide) but CO2 at above 3% is toxic also. My
> friend
> > used a butane powered "Catalytic Heater" no flame but lots of heat. But
> my
> > Father just used a gasoline fueled blowtorch to heat his truck in
> > Pennsylvania while awaiting the next load. (He delivered coal to homes
> from
> > a nearby coal mine 70 years ago.)
> >
> > Regards,
> > *Dennis Lee Miles* (Director) *E.V.T.I. inc*.
> > *www.E-V-T-I-Inc.COM <http://www.e-v-t-i-inc.com/> *(Adviser)*
> > EVTI-EVAEducation Chapter
> > *
> > ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
> > The "Stone Age" didn't end because they ran out of Stones;
> > It ended because they started using their Brains !
> > +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
> >
> > On Sun, Jan 30, 2011 at 12:13 AM, Lee Hart <[email protected]>


> > wrote:
> > >
> > >> On 1/29/2011 9:47 PM, Larry Gales wrote:
> > >> > I have advocated that EVs have small gasoline or propane heaters to
> ...


----------

