# peugeot 406 coupe conversion



## rillip3 (Jun 19, 2009)

44depot said:


> Hi, im new here, and i want to start my adventure with EV now.
> i have a few questions about those conversions.
> first off, 406 coupe 3.0 is my car. Second, my expectations are:
> 0-100km ~6-8s
> ...


30-40k? What currency? I ask because you use metric units, but the price is... quite exceptional if you are using USD. With USD, you can definitely reach that easily. Do you know what the curb weight is? I'm not finding any reliable numbers; I've seen some puting it at 1,300 kilos, some as high as 1,900 kilos. Either way that's going to be a pretty heavy vehicle, but should still be doable. You may have to go with Lithium to keep the batteries low weight and be able to fit them in, it's awfully heavy for a small car, but it sounds like you have the budget for it.


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## 44depot (Jun 19, 2009)

rillip3 said:


> 30-40k? What currency?


US dolars


> Do you know what the curb weight is?


Yes its about 1410kg full car with empty tank, and 1900kg max load.


What motor should i buy? Warp 9 or 11? And is there any chance to run ABS and ESP in EV?


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## Nomad (May 8, 2009)

I have numbers flying around in my head... I wish I was raised on metric..sometimes... but not always 

So..
3200 lbs
0-60 in 8secs
60 mile Range
95 mph top speed

Jesus thats fast.

I can see the range, and takeoff but I have no idea about top speed so I don't want to steer you wrong.

And yes, you can do it one of two ways.

Either keep your belt driving system and fab something up to a twin shafted motor.

Or buy a electric PS and Vucuum Pump.


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## 44depot (Jun 19, 2009)

Nomad said:


> I have numbers flying around in my head... I wish I was raised on metric..sometimes... but not always
> 
> So..
> 3200 lbs
> ...


hi,

you were close
but topspeed is not important for me now.
Those two are my point
0-60 in 7-8secs
60 mile Range

if anyone know a good configuration for this car (~3200lbs now/ without engine and some staff that should bee ~900lbs less i think.) please let me know


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## Nomad (May 8, 2009)

44depot said:


> hi,
> 
> you were close
> but topspeed is not important for me now.
> ...


Ok Well... if top speed isn't an issue..

Range your going to have to use LiFePo4

Here is a list of batteries.
http://www.evcomponents.com/SearchResults.asp?Cat=34

And here is a list of Motors.
http://www.china-electricmotor.com/ArticleShow.asp?ArticleID=154

Convert your LOCKED Nm to ft/lbs torque and get an idea of what kinda LOCKED power you are going to want and we'll go from there.


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## 44depot (Jun 19, 2009)

Nomad said:


> Ok Well... if top speed isn't an issue..
> 
> Range your going to have to use LiFePo4
> 
> ...


ok.
my locked Nm is about 210ft/lbs but locked KW now with 3.0 engine is ~150KW. So i dont know if i need this:
45 kw 
288V 
3500 rpm 
123Nm 
260Nm 
100KW 
171.6A 
320A 
94.8% 
152kg 



or this one
70kw 
288V 
3500 
191Nm 
430Nm 
150KW 
267.3A 
500A 
95.1% 
180kg

but with that second one the Locked Nm are twice as i have now 

Another question is: Why AC not DC motor? iIf AC, what kind of controller?


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## Nomad (May 8, 2009)

44depot said:


> ok.
> my locked Nm is about 210ft/lbs but locked KW now with 3.0 engine is ~150KW.


With your Engine kW is much different.

210 ft/lb of torque so you'll need around 270nM

Why AC? POWER I don't know of a DC motor that can push 100HP and 270nM Burst damage. If you find one let me know.

Here is where it comes down to another choice.
80 LiFePo4 Batteries @ 100AH will get you 60 miles... Maybe LOL It's close. Just because your car is so heavy!! ~ $8k

However 
if you get 100 you'll be fine, just get a controller rated for 320v and 500+ Amps ~11k Batteries

45 kw 
228V 
3500 rpm 
123Nm 
260Nm 
100KW 
224.4A 
420A 
94.8% 
126kg

Think it's about 7k for the motor, controller, and all the little extras.

18k build.

Now.. have someone else look over all this LOL


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## 44depot (Jun 19, 2009)

Hmm... sounds not so bad.
but i think i will remove my back seats from car becouse of 100! Lifepo4 :/
and i wonder where can i put those 100:/ (320kg).

btw, 18k $ its not so bad.

THX.


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## Nomad (May 8, 2009)

44depot said:


> Hmm... sounds not so bad.
> but i think i will remove my back seats from car becouse of 100! Lifepo4 :/
> and i wonder where can i put those 100:/ (320kg).
> 
> ...


That has always been the question.. where in the hell to put all of them.


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## dimitri (May 16, 2008)

You are being steered towards an AC motor that no one on this forum has ever tried, so if you feel like testing it for all of us, it would be great 

Nomad, are there any EVs on EV Album or elsewhere that used these motors? With what controllers? Their results? Issues?

I don't think its fair to steer a new guy towards unknown product from China, we all know it could be real bad just as likely as being good 

Sorry, can't comment on the build, I don't race and don't respond well to first EV builds trying to break records , it usually means you are not serious or you have no idea what you are up against, no hard feelings, its not meant personally at you , just a general observation 

As for range, 60 miles is very easy to get on your budget, just need to calculate available room and weight allowance for battery pack, determine system voltage and then figure out the size of the cell you need to get required amount of usable energy using approximate Wh/mile usage of your car type.

Good luck!


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## 44depot (Jun 19, 2009)

Yeah:/ i was in garage and looking for some place for them.
100 of them is about 1 m2 and 25cm high :/ But i cant tell know if there will be enough place for 500 of them in engine bay, and another 50 in trank.


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## Nomad (May 8, 2009)

dimitri said:


> Nomad, are there any EVs on EV Album or elsewhere that used these motors? With what controllers? Their results? Issues?


I think I mentioned it twice that this was all good in theory and to have someone else look at it first and I am still learning everything.


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## dimitri (May 16, 2008)

Hmm, looked at the car's specs, nice car, but a bit on a heavy side. If I was to do a decent performance DC conversion I would use Warp11, but I think with your budget Azure AC55 might be a good choice, given the size of the car and your budget, you may be able to pull it off.

http://www.evcomponents.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=AC55

If you go with AC55 , then you would probably want 320V nominal pack, for nice round number of 100 cells in series.

Assuming your car gets 350-400 Wh/mile ( fair assumpption considering weight and your desire for speed ) you will need a minimum 29kWh pack with 80% DoD in mind. However, I would strongly suggest to use 100Ah cells like these http://www.evcomponents.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=SE100AHA

because it will give you more room for hard accelerations and more range.

Now, the question is, can you fit 100 of these babies in the car?

If not, you can lower voltage and number of cells a little, since AC55 has a wide voltage range, but you will lose power and range in proportion of number of reduced cells.

Hope this helps


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## Nomad (May 8, 2009)

However since it was brought up.

You could build a DC system @ 144 volts using

50 200ah Batteries instead. 

This will get you the range you are looking for and the power could come from a warp 11

It wasn't my goal to stear you in the wrong direction, just throwing out ideas.


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## rillip3 (Jun 19, 2009)

44depot said:


> Hmm... sounds not so bad.
> but i think i will remove my back seats from car becouse of 100! Lifepo4 :/
> and i wonder where can i put those 100:/ (320kg).
> 
> ...


You might want to try reaching Kearon at Evcapri.com, I know he used 100 lithiums for his battery, he might be able to help with arrangement ideas. Although, I think he did remove the backseat as well.

Edit:


Nomad said:


> However since it was brought up.
> 
> You could build a DC system @ 144 volts using
> 
> ...


I'm not aware of any 200 Ah Lithium batteries on the market right now. Largest I have seen from Thundersky is 90 Ah, I think the other main one, Sky Blue (?) offers 100 Ah.


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## dimitri (May 16, 2008)

Actually, for DC system with Warp11, I would recommend 192V pack of 60 cells in series, using 180AH cells. This gives you usable 
27kWh, perfect for your range, and voltage for freeway speeds.


as for 8 sec 0-60 with this heavy car, I am not an expert, but I don't think its realistic, perhaps 12-15 seconds? I really don't know, I am just pulling numbers from thin air 

I get about 22 seconds in my Protege with limited controller power, once I get final 1000Amp controller I might be able to do 15-17 seconds, who knows  , I really don't care as long as I am not the last guy from the traffic light


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## Nomad (May 8, 2009)

rillip3 said:


> I'm not aware of any 200 Ah Lithium batteries on the market right now. Largest I have seen from Thundersky is 90 Ah, I think the other main one, Sky Blue (?) offers 100 Ah.


http://www.evcomponents.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=TS-LFP200AHA

But those just seem really big...

so 160ah @ http://www.evcomponents.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=TS-LFP160AHA

Sky 180ah http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forum...ggest-and-stronggest-high-capacity-33002.html


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## dimitri (May 16, 2008)

rillip3 said:


> I'm not aware of any 200 Ah Lithium batteries on the market right now. Largest I have seen from Thundersky is 90 Ah, I think the other main one, Sky Blue (?) offers 100 Ah.


Dude , 160AH TS and 180AH Sky are THE MOST POPULAR choices for DC conversion.

Larger sizes exist, but not very popular due to their size and weight, and cost


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## Nomad (May 8, 2009)

dimitri said:


> Actually, for DC system with Warp11, I would recommend 192V pack of 60 cells in series, using 180AH cells. This gives you usable
> 27kWh, perfect for your range, and voltage for freeway speeds.
> 
> 
> as for 8 sec 0-60 with this heavy car, I am not an expert, but I don't think its realistic, perhaps 12-15 seconds? I really don't know, I am just pulling numbers from thin air


I wasn't even aware DC had pushed pass 144  Nice to know

And as for the 0-60 thats why I recommended an AC motor. I just don't know anything that will push that hard without getting into the twin motor setups.


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## 44depot (Jun 19, 2009)

dimitri said:


> Hmm, looked at the car's specs, nice car, but a bit on a heavy side. If I was to do a decent performance DC conversion I would use Warp11, but I think with your budget Azure AC55 might be a good choice, given the size of the car and your budget, you may be able to pull it off.
> 
> http://www.evcomponents.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=AC55
> 
> ...


Ive made some calculations, and i think, that there is a posibillity to pack those 100 Lifepo4.

Another thing is: What is the difrence between china moto and AC55? (i dont mean technology and weight, i mean performance).

And another question without answar is: what about that ABS and ESP?


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## Nomad (May 8, 2009)

44depot said:


> Ive made some calculations, and i think, that there is a posibillity to pack those 100 Lifepo4.
> 
> Another fing is: What is the difrence between china moto and AC55? (i dont mean technology and weight, i mean performance).
> 
> And another question without answar is: what about that ABS and ESP?


I think the AC55 is a proven motor compared to the china motor, dimitri has been around a hell of alot longer than I have  plus about 4k cheeper. As a matter o fact I have my eye on it now.

ABS you can use a eletric Vacuum Pump. 
Eletric Power Steering as well.


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## dimitri (May 16, 2008)

I think Warp11 has similar if not better torque at 192V than AC55, so that's not an issue. Actually AC55 is even cheaper if you get the "blemished" one from EVComponents, than Warp11 / 1000Amp controller combo, plus its more efficient due to less current and wider RPM range.

Man, I really like this AC55 setup more and more....


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## dimitri (May 16, 2008)

44depot said:


> And another question without answar is: what about that ABS and ESP?


ABS works the same as before, just add electric vacuum pump, its been covered in length on the forum, read up....

What's ESP? Is that power steering? How is it done in your car now? Electric or mechanical? If mechanical, you can put in electric PS pump.

What about Air Conditioning? Are you keeping it? How will you drive it?


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## 44depot (Jun 19, 2009)

dimitri said:


> ABS works the same as before, just add electric vacuum pump, its been covered in length on the forum, read up....
> 
> What's ESP? Is that power steering? How is it done in your car now? Electric or mechanical? If mechanical, you can put in electric PS pump.
> 
> What about Air Conditioning? Are you keeping it? How will you drive it?


ESP = traction control, and its combined with engine i think :/

Aircon is out, so another -100kg

yeah i know abot electric vacuum pomp, but wonder if ABS wont crazy becouse of onboard computer.


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## dimitri (May 16, 2008)

44depot said:


> ESP = traction control, and its combined with engine i think :/
> 
> Aircon is out, so another -100kg
> 
> yeah i know abot electric vacuum pomp, but wonder if ABS wont crazy becouse of onboard computer.


Get the wiring diagram or even better a shop manual and see if ABS and ESP have any dependencies on ECU outputs. If so, keep the ECU, and keep most basic sensors connected to it, like temp , RPM, etc.

I was able to fool my ECU into normal operation by keeping some sensors and cutting off some others, it doable if you know how to read shop manual


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## 44depot (Jun 19, 2009)

dimitri said:


> Get the wiring diagram or even better a shop manual and see if ABS and ESP have any dependencies on ECU outputs. If so, keep the ECU, and keep most basic sensors connected to it, like temp , RPM, etc.
> 
> I was able to fool my ECU into normal operation by keeping some sensors and cutting off some others, it doable if you know how to read shop manual


Problem is that i have workshop repair manuals, but there is no ESP section :/
I will talk to my cousin (mechanic) ant weekend, mybe he will help me.


and what you think about that http://www.enovasystems.com/index.cfm?section=Products&linkID=3


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## dimitri (May 16, 2008)

Some Wikipedia research shows that ESC and TCS are 2 different animals 

*Electronic stability control* (*ESC*) works similar to ABS, by applying braking power to one or more wheels to prevent slippage.

A *traction control system* (*TCS*) works by reducing power to the engine, either by throttle override or suppressing ignition, or also braking the wheels.

So, depending on specific implementation in your car, you may be able to retain this function, if it works with brakes, since brakes are not touched by conversion, other than changing a source of vacuum.

However, if it works by reducing engine power, then you will lose it after conversion, since it would be difficult and impractical to integrate electric throttle with OEM throttle control. Probably not impossible, but why would you really need this?


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## dimitri (May 16, 2008)

44depot said:


> and what you think about that http://www.enovasystems.com/index.cfm?section=Products&linkID=3


Sure it looks nice on paper, but somehow I think it would not be available for a humble EV converter, or it would be prohibitivly expensive, just like ACP system and other similar systems.

DIY conversions and OEM systems are 2 different worlds, rarely overlapping. We are too small potatoes for them, and they are too big for us


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## 44depot (Jun 19, 2009)

I need only ABS. ESP=TSC im just askin.

in car manual it says that TSC helps in acceleration process, but after conversion it is crap, as you said.

there is another thing with engin, do you thing that will fit?

http://www.enovasystems.com/index.cfm?section=Products&linkID=3


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## 44depot (Jun 19, 2009)

Ok time to make some steps.
im thinking about that 55kw http://www.china-electricmotor.com/ArticleShow.asp?ArticleID=146

i can cut my range to 40miles per charge, becouse there is a possibillity to charg my car when im at work.


If you know something about that 55kw, tell me please. Is this good for 1400kg (~3000lb) car?


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## Nomad (May 8, 2009)

You might want to take a look here

http://www.evalbum.com/type/PEUG

And that motor requires 350volts, so if your dead set on it, I would drop to the 50kW comming in at 320v


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## CroDriver (Jan 8, 2009)

44depot said:


> I need only ABS. ESP=TSC im just askin.
> 
> in car manual it says that TSC helps in acceleration process, but after conversion it is crap, as you said.
> 
> ...


ESP is not only for acceleration. It's for keeping the car straight by eliminating understeering and oversteering. It's doing that by hitting each break independent from each other and by reducing engine power output. 

It will still work without the power reduction with the brakes only but you will have to cheat in the ECU


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## 44depot (Jun 19, 2009)

CroDriver said:


> ESP is not only for acceleration. It's for keeping the car straight by eliminating understeering and oversteering. It's doing that by hitting each break independent from each other and by reducing engine power output.
> 
> It will still work without the power reduction with the brakes only but you will have to cheat in the ECU


thanks,

that i can do, i thought it wont work without engine...


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