# [EVDL] Low temp molten-salt battery x10 cheaper than lithium-ion



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

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dgo=


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

80 Degrees Celsius, sigh, formidable design consideration indeed.

It says it needs to keep that temperature to "output power" I wonder if it
keeps its charge whilst being in a state where it is unable to output power.
Making very efficient insulated enclosures is not really all that big of a
deal, with ceramic thermal paints and insulating material, a couple of lead
acid batteries I'm sure could heat a large enclosure filled with batteries
up to sufficient heat. A little bit of loss with a DC/DC converter to
recharge the lead acids from the main pack upon reaching heat, seems
reasonable to think 20% more range for same weight (including weight of
enclosure and heating components) would be easily attainable. Or perhaps the
heating would be entirely done from line power, it would have to be if the
batteries lose charge due to temperature. But then you'd be sacrificing
energy bills to always keep the car enclosures hot for increased range.

And it says nothing of how many cycles the batteries are theoretically or
practically good for. If you charge them whilst cold do they heat up? Or do
they have to be hot to input power as well as output?

Does anyone have an account with that science direct site or have plans to
blow 30$ on the article? Perhaps the answers are buried within.





> Jeff Haskell <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> > How much of the increased battery capacity is needed to run heaters to ke=
> ep
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

How much of the battery energy gets "wasted" keeping the battery warm?
Here's a guess:

Let's start with a hypothetical battery pack. You want 20kWh. Energy
density for LiFePo is somewhere around 125 Wh/kg (chime in if you have a
better number). Thus, your 20kWh pack would weigh 160kg.

According to Sumitomo, their cells will have roughly double the energy
density. That means your hypothetical pack would weigh 80kg (wow, that
would be awesome!). Ok, a lot of assumptions. More coming. You'll see
where I'm going.

Next is to guess the specific energy of the Sumitomo cells. Since they are
to be molton (another broad assumption coming), I'm going to use the
specific energy of water: 1 calorie to heat 1g of water 1 deg celcuis. I
have no idea how close this would be to a molten salt - anyone else care to
opine?

Last assumption: let's say we can insulate the battery so that it looses
about 5 deg celcius per hour when near its operating temperature of 80.

Given all that, the calories it would loose per hour (and thus need to
replace) =3D 5deg * 80kg =3D 400kcal =3D 400,000 cal.
At 4.18J / cal, that's 400,000 * 4.18 =3D 1,672kJ.
1J =3D 1Ws (watt*second). So, 1,672kJ =3D 1,672kWs. Convert to hours: =3D
1672/3600 =3D .46kWh.

All that means you would need .46kWh per hour, or .46kW, to keep the battery
at 80 deg cel. For a 20kWh pack, that means it could heat itself for 20kWh
/ .46kW =3D 43,000 hours. =


I have to admit, this number seems too large. Anyone care to verify my
calcs? At any rate, if my assumptions are even within 10% accuracy, heating
won't be an issue.

Peri Hartman



Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf
Of Jeff Haskell
Sent: 11 March, 2011 4:22 AM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Cc: brucedp4
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Low temp molten-salt battery x10 cheaper than
lithium-ion

How much of the increased battery capacity is needed to run heaters to keep
them up to temperature?  Even if you only got 20% more range, they seem to
be a lot more cost-effective.



> brucedp4 <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> >
> > Double the energy density, Sumitomo to commercialize/market by 2015
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Peri Hartman wrote:
> 
> > How much of the battery energy gets "wasted" keeping the battery warm?
> > Here's a guess:
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Thanks Roger, some good datas there. If indeed they can maintain the charge
whilst frozen there could really be some potential here.



> Roger Stockton <[email protected]>wrote:
> 
> > Peri Hartman wrote:
> >
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Your calculation actually comes out to 43 hours, not 43,000 hours.....



> Peri Hartman <[email protected]> wrote:
> > How much of the battery energy gets "wasted" keeping the battery warm?
> > Here's a guess:
> >
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Thanks. Acutally I saw that a bit after I sent the message. Always happens
that way 
Peri =


-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf
Of Zeke Yewdall
Sent: 11 March, 2011 1:55 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Low temp molten-salt battery x10 cheaper than
lithium-ion

Your calculation actually comes out to 43 hours, not 43,000 hours.....



> Peri Hartman <[email protected]> wrote:
> > How much of the battery energy gets "wasted" keeping the battery warm?
> > Here's a guess:
> >
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

What's 3 decimal places among friends? 



> Peri Hartman <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> > Thanks. Acutally I saw that a bit after I sent the message. Always
> > happens
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

I recently say a paper that said a ZEBRA will use 14% of it's capacity to
keep itself warm in a day. Wiki says ZEBRA has 18% self discharge. 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Molten_salt_battery#ZEBRA_battery



> Peri Hartman wrote:
> >
> > How much of the battery energy gets "wasted" keeping the battery warm?
> >
> ...


----------

