# North Carolina Set to Impose Annual Hybrid, Electric Car Fees



## Caps18 (Jun 8, 2008)

More Anti-Tax "Tea Party' Hypocrisy.

What a joke.


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## EVfun (Mar 14, 2010)

Washington state already nails EV owners an extra $100 every year for tabs. There will be a lot of pressure to find new road taxes as the average fuel economy of vehicles in the USA increases. CAFE (corporate average fuel economy) requirements for auto makers is going up. Fuel price increases started the trend to more efficient vehicles in the USA. 

It isn't a few thousand EVs in each state that creates the cash shortage, it is the average of all the vehicles on the road getting going a fraction of an extra mile per gallon of gas.


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## dragonsgate (May 19, 2012)

From what I understand there are fewer people driving and they are driving shorter distances. $100 annually could wind up being more for an EV than would be spent on a gas car at the same miles driven.


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## EVfun (Mar 14, 2010)

It is a disincentive for me to buy an EV. I drive a Tacoma pickup that I bought new in 2004. It currently has 42,200 miles on it. The state has been charging me about $80 a year in gas taxes to drive it.


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## Caps18 (Jun 8, 2008)

I don't mind paying a fair tax for how much I would drive a year and to support road repair (we have plenty of roads already constructed here).

The problem is that it would probably be $10-$20 in gas taxes if I were driving a really efficient ICE car, in addition to the $53/year registration and $200?/year insurance it adds up to a lot.

My bicycle is $0/year. I pay plenty in property taxes to my city to fix the roads here.


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## PhantomPholly (Aug 20, 2008)

Caps18 said:


> More Anti-Tax "Tea Party' Hypocrisy.
> 
> What a joke.


Unlike Progressive employment and income taxes, vehicle taxes (gasoline, now this new PHEV/EV tax) go directly to maintaining roads.

And, adding a new tax (which is, strictly speaking, only there to make it "fair" to gasoline vehicle drivers who pay a per-gallon tax - which ought to make it a winner in the eyes of the DNC) is most definitely not something the TEA ("Taxed Enough Already") Party would promote.

If you are going to spout ignorant nonsense, the correct place for it is the Chit Chat forum.

Edit. If you only burn 5 gallons of gas per week, luck you - your gasoline taxes are about $104 / year, and most PHEVs would burn zero with such a short commute.

$100 is about the same as the gas taxes you escape. Get over it.


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## dragonsgate (May 19, 2012)

The thing is the public is bombarded by agencies both private and government with messages of warning that resources are dwindling and how we most conserve by cutting back on use of those resources. Then when a number of the populace heeds that call they are penalized with a one size fits all solution. The drop in revenue from gas tax is not solely from the growing number of electric cars. It is hard to believe when you are stuck in traffic but there are fewer cars on the road nowadays. People are driving less either because of the higher price of gas or there are fewer new drivers because the younger generation would rather stay home and communicate on their ipads. Then there are those that have heeded the conservation propaganda and use public transportation. Less people driving equals less gas sold therefore less tax revenue. It has been my experience in the past that if you figure out a way to cut back on something somebody will tack on a surcharge because you do not use enough of it. For example when I lived off the grid years ago I had a 100 gallon propane tank that I topped off about every six months. The amount varied but it never took 100 gallons. The company wanted to charge an extra $35 to compensate for the small amount of propane I used. This company sent out pamphlets on how to conserve. The conservative and liberal parties are like a swimming pool with two deep ends and the wading section in the middle. The Tea Party is at the extreme no tax deep end so it is not them. That only leaves one other deep end to guess where this siht is coming from.


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## PhantomPholly (Aug 20, 2008)

dragonsgate said:


> The thing is the public is bombarded by agencies both private and government with messages of warning that resources are dwindling and how we most conserve by cutting back on use of those resources. Then when a number of the populace heeds that call they are penalized with a one size fits all solution. The drop in revenue from gas tax is not solely from the growing number of electric cars. It is hard to believe when you are stuck in traffic but there are fewer cars on the road nowadays. People are driving less either because of the higher price of gas or there are fewer new drivers because the younger generation would rather stay home and communicate on their ipads. Then there are those that have heeded the conservation propaganda and use public transportation. Less people driving equals less gas sold therefore less tax revenue. It has been my experience in the past that if you figure out a way to cut back on something somebody will tack on a surcharge because you do not use enough of it. For example when I lived off the grid years ago I had a 100 gallon propane tank that I topped off about every six months. The amount varied but it never took 100 gallons. The company wanted to charge an extra $35 to compensate for the small amount of propane I used. This company sent out pamphlets on how to conserve. The conservative and liberal parties are like a swimming pool with two deep ends and the wading section in the middle. The Tea Party is at the extreme no tax deep end so it is not them. That only leaves one other deep end to guess where this siht is coming from.


A couple of things on this.

First, in most places gas taxes have not increased enough to keep pace with inflation.

Second, fewer miles driven means less revenue, while almost as much of the road maintenence costs are driven by the effects of weather rather than by miles driven. So, fewer miles driven means less revenue to deal with nearly the same wear and tear.

No, I personally support eliminating our entire tax system and replacing it with the FairTax. That will give politicians far fewer places to try to hide how much they are taking. But no matter what tax scheme we use, roads still need to be maintained.


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## shock (Jul 16, 2011)

I paid $5,000 in taxes on my Model S, including grossly high taxes on the tags because it's based on the purchase price.

As long as EV purchasers already pay THOUSANDS more than ICE owners for the car, the State is already reaping more in SALES TAX on the increased purchase price than they lose in gas tax.

And the "rebates" don't cover this - the manufacturers raise their price to claim that rebate for themselves.

Bottom line - as we respond to the need to pollute less (including co2), then government needs to take the revenues they get from our initial capitol outlay and apply it to the old model of gas taxes.

I worked for the Legislature for many years... And there is only 1 "general fund" where the money goes. The idea that money comes in from one source and goes out to another source is a Legislative LIE that persists so they can justify jacking up taxes selectively.

Enough rant. (Just paid taxes recently and actually added up how much of my income the different governments actually get from me.)


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## dreamer (Feb 28, 2009)

shock said:


> I paid $5,000 in taxes on my Model S, including grossly high taxes on the tags because it's based on the purchase price.
> 
> As long as EV purchasers already pay THOUSANDS more than ICE owners for the car, the State is already reaping more in SALES TAX on the increased purchase price than they lose in gas tax.


What nonsense. You would have paid the same sales tax on any vehicle that was the same price. A Porsche Panamera, or a Mercedes AMG, etc. You didn't get charged a higher sales tax because the car was electric, just because it was an expensive vehicle.


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## PhantomPholly (Aug 20, 2008)

shock said:


> I paid $5,000 in taxes on my Model S, including grossly high taxes on the tags because it's based on the purchase price.
> 
> As long as EV purchasers already pay THOUSANDS more than ICE owners for the car, the State is already reaping more in SALES TAX on the increased purchase price than they lose in gas tax.
> 
> ...


lol - Careful, if you can afford $60k+ for an electric car then many on this forum will consider you one of the "evil rich" and assume you just naturally ought to pay more in taxes...

You are dead right that most stuff does go through the "general fund." Special funds like Social Security were raided years ago and are truly bankrupt, making Social Security officially a Ponzi scheme. Debt clock is almost $17 trillion now, and we are well on our way to a Greece-style meltdown of our currency. My only point was that the taxes meant specifically to fund roads cannot be collected for an electric, and that the proposed taxes to collect that money in an alternative way were not actually outrageous (setting aside the sales tax you paid on your 'S').


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## rochesterricer (Jan 5, 2011)

dreamer said:


> What nonsense. You would have paid the same sales tax on any vehicle that was the same price. A Porsche Panamera, or a Mercedes AMG, etc. You didn't get charged a higher sales tax because the car was electric, just because it was an expensive vehicle.


He is saying that because an EV costs thousands more than an equivalent ICE car. This is not something that is in dispute, as it is one of the biggest complaints about EVs. It might be hard to see this with a Model S, because Tesla does not make a gas version of that car. However, you can easily see this with cars like the Ford Focus EV, Honda Fit EV, Toyota RAV4 EV, etc.


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## EVfun (Mar 14, 2010)

In Washington state the purchase of a new EV is exempt from sales tax, but then they add $100 a year to the tabs. Taking money out of one hand and putting it another -- idiots. The sales tax they gave up is more than they will collect in additional tab fees over a 20 year vehicle life.


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## ElectriCar (Jun 15, 2008)

PhantomPholly said:


> lol - Careful... *we are well on our way to a Greece-style meltdown of our currency... *


My retirement funds are in bonds now, out of the market. I'm afraid that when the market falls, there are going to be a lot of suicides this time, much worse than the 2008 collapse.


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## Mark C (Jun 25, 2010)

There are a lot of taxes I oppose as well as tax loopholes, but funding the repair on our highway infrastructure is not on the list at this time. I don't know what the tax rate is for diesel fuel compared to gasoline, but if it is the same amounts of cents per gallon, at least big trucks pay a lot more than cars. That would be fair as they cause more damage from added weight. Still, we all need to pay something as we can't charge the weather for eroding our streets and highways and causing the steel to rust on our poorly maintained bridges.


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## PhantomPholly (Aug 20, 2008)

Actaully, trucks do damage closer to the square of their weight compared to cars - but all States have special taxes for the big rigs in recognition of that fact.

I'm about as opposed to new taxes as anyone on this forum, but even I would agree that the mechanism used to calculate a "fair share" of road taxes for many decades simply won't work with EVs.


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## dragonsgate (May 19, 2012)

PhantomPholly said:


> I'm about as opposed to new taxes as anyone on this forum, but even I would agree that the mechanism used to calculate a "fair share" of road taxes for many decades simply won't work with EVs.


This has been expressed by many tax payers over the years. The general statement is something like this…”I wouldn’t mind paying taxes if they would not waste the money.” That is contradictive because the way politicians get votes is buy funneling federal tax money into their respective states in pork barrel projects to placate the very same voters that make such statements. A tax on EV’s is not going to be a drop in the bucket by the time the bureaucracy gets through running it through the shredder.


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## PhantomPholly (Aug 20, 2008)

dragonsgate said:


> This has been expressed by many tax payers over the years. The general statement is something like this…”I wouldn’t mind paying taxes if they would not waste the money.” That is contradictive because the way politicians get votes is buy funneling federal tax money into their respective states in pork barrel projects to placate the very same voters that make such statements. A tax on EV’s is not going to be a drop in the bucket by the time the bureaucracy gets through running it through the shredder.


In principle I agree with you, in real life I am as susceptible to "The Prisoner's Dilemma" thinking as everyone else - I don't like it when other people get a "special deal."

Gas taxes are a fact of life. EVs don't pay them. In an ideal world I'd see us ditch our entire tax system in favor of a simple consumption tax (IRL I support the FairTax, but that is more specific than this discussion warrants), and perhaps inheritance tax for everything over $500 million or so (base it on a mathematical formula, not a dollar amount, so it automatically keeps pace with inflation). In the real world the gas tax isn't going away, and every State has or will pass an EV road tax. 

We can let ourselves get wrapped around the axel about details like this, and it is in the politicians' favor when we do. I prefer to not worry if they pass a "reasonably equivalent" tax right now so I can keep my focus on eliminating the entire tax structure.


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## Caps18 (Jun 8, 2008)

The issue I have is that I will pay $53 registration for both and ICE and EV. Then I will pay 0.28 cents in Ohio and 0.184 cents in the US per gallon of gas. (In Michigan it is 0.394 cents)

If I drive 6,000 miles which is mostly to and from Michigan a few times a year in my 40mpg car, it is 150 gallons of gas. That is $69.60 in taxes (The state of Ohio should only be getting $42 of it). I might get to 6,000 miles a year in my EV, we will see.

Once the value of this fee/tax (I'm calling out the GOP in NC for raising taxes, I'm not sure what the Dems are thinking in OR and WA) gets into triple digits and is as high as 6 months of car insurance for me, then it is a problem. Especially since I pay HOA fees to maintain our 'private' roads, property taxes and levies to maintain the city roads, and federal income tax to pay for the roads. Plus, most roads have already been designed and built, maintenance costs should be going down.


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## PStechPaul (May 1, 2012)

A major problem with gasoline tax is that it is a fixed amount per gallon and not a percentage of sale price, as it should be. In MD they finally got something like a 10 cent tax phased in over a few years and people complain bitterly, even though it has been a long time since the tax was raised and at that time it was a much higher percentage of cost. I suppose a separate tax on EVs is reasonable, but it should be proportional to miles driven. I think there should be a variable fee imposed every time a vehicle is emissions inspected (and that should include EVs, and a general safety check). But the fee should be proportional to the number of miles driven since last check, as well as the measured pollutants, with no exceptions for antique vehicles and trucks or whatever. For as much as you pollute, you should contribute, and you can lower your costs by driving less or fixing your vehicle or buying a better one or doing an EV or hybrid conversion.


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## CFreeman54 (Jan 14, 2009)

I understand that road maintenance costs money and that money must come from somewhere (taxes), but it seems premature and antithetical for governments to be taxing EV owners at a time when we still can not even convince most people to drive an EV. If the government is serious about promoting EV use, then every incentive should be given, and no penalties. When EV numbers equal ICE numbers on roads, then maybe it is time to talk about contributing. Until then, I like the model of contribute in proportion to the pollution you are causing.


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## PhantomPholly (Aug 20, 2008)

So some people think that the fuel tax should be a percentage of the price of a gallon of gas - but think about that for a minute. Today, the total tax bite for a gallon is hovering between 35-40 cents on the dollar, while the oil companies only make about 7 cents on the dollar (a whole different can of worms - oil companies have one of the lowest rates of return of any industry). Given that there is very little profit margin left, you are essentially asking for a tax increase.

As for those complaining that the fixed-fee tax for EVs is unreasonable, I won't argue that there aren't cases where it works out higher for low mileage folks driving ICE vehicles but will point out that you are paying for roads to be available 24x7 even when you aren't driving - so it's a bit of a silly argument to claim you should pay nothing in taxes because you are a short-haul commuter.

No matter how they tax a thing no one will be happy anyway. Why not ditch the entire system and go to a single tax on everything? At least it would be honest and transparent...


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