# [EVDL] Large Circuit Breakers



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Dennis,

I would like to add one of these to my system. Do you have any specifics on the ones that you have?

Ben

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Pestka, Dennis J
Sent: Thursday, August 28, 2008 7:15 AM
To: EV Discussion Group
Subject: [EVDL] Large Circuit Breakers

I purchased all my conversion components through Ken Koch when he still
owned KTA.
As part of this package, I received 2 large circuit breakers that will
be installed between one of my contactors and the positive side of the
battery pack.
I will be running a 156V system with a 9" Advanced and a 1200A Raptor
controller.

I have been looking at a lot of photos of other electric vehicles to get
ideas on layout of components under the hood.
I'm curious why I don't see these circuit breakers on the other
conversions that I've been looking at.
Are they installed somewhere else, or are they not used on most
conversions.


Thanks;
Dennis
Elsberry, MO
_______________________________________________
General EVDL support: http://evdl.org/help/
Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
Archives: http://evdl.org/archive/
Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev


ANDERSON SCHOOL DISTRICT FIVE NOTICE: This email may contain business related information that is
PERSONAL AND CONFIDENTIAL. If you have received this email in error, this does not
constitute permission to examine, copy or distribute the accompanying material.
If you receive this message in error, please notify the sender immediately or call 864-260-5000.


_______________________________________________
General EVDL support: http://evdl.org/help/
Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
Archives: http://evdl.org/archive/
Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Hello Dennis,
I've had the same question.
Some layouts and schematics show breakers, some do not.
Some install them within reach of the driver somewhere in the cab, some 
under the hood. The under the hood installations usually include a 
control cable for emergency shut-off (or to reset).

I have concluded that they are pretty much strongly recommended, in some 
localities might even be required for safety reasons (and checked during 
inspection?).
My take is, that an emergency circuit breaker is a strongly recommended 
optional (in some states required) safety device.
I'm installing a breaker under the hood with a cable into the cab of my 
truck. It will be capable of either emergency pull to shut down, or push 
to reset.
Bob




> Pestka, Dennis J wrote:
> > I purchased all my conversion components through Ken Koch when he still
> > owned KTA.
> > As part of this package, I received 2 large circuit breakers that will
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

My KingCab has the breaker mounted under the dash on the inside of the cab - 
The Metro has it mounted under the hood, and uses a cable to trip it.

Joseph H. Strubhar

Web: www.gremcoinc.com

E-mail: [email protected]
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Pestka, Dennis J" <[email protected]>
To: "EV Discussion Group" <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, August 28, 2008 4:14 AM
Subject: [EVDL] Large Circuit Breakers


>I purchased all my conversion components through Ken Koch when he still
> owned KTA.
> As part of this package, I received 2 large circuit breakers that will
> be installed between one of my contactors and the positive side of the
> battery pack.
> I will be running a 156V system with a 9" Advanced and a 1200A Raptor
> controller.
>
> I have been looking at a lot of photos of other electric vehicles to get
> ideas on layout of components under the hood.
> I'm curious why I don't see these circuit breakers on the other
> conversions that I've been looking at.
> Are they installed somewhere else, or are they not used on most
> conversions.
>
>
> Thanks;
> Dennis
> Elsberry, MO
> _______________________________________________
> General EVDL support: http://evdl.org/help/
> Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
> Archives: http://evdl.org/archive/
> Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>
>
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
> Version: 8.0.138 / Virus Database: 270.6.11/1639 - Release Date: 8/28/2008 
> 7:39 AM
>
>
> 

_______________________________________________
General EVDL support: http://evdl.org/help/
Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
Archives: http://evdl.org/archive/
Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Bob,

Do you have a source for the breaker. I need to order one.


Thanks!

Ben in SC

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Robert Brown
Sent: Thursday, August 28, 2008 8:23 AM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Large Circuit Breakers

Hello Dennis,
I've had the same question.
Some layouts and schematics show breakers, some do not.
Some install them within reach of the driver somewhere in the cab, some
under the hood. The under the hood installations usually include a
control cable for emergency shut-off (or to reset).

I have concluded that they are pretty much strongly recommended, in some
localities might even be required for safety reasons (and checked during
inspection?).
My take is, that an emergency circuit breaker is a strongly recommended
optional (in some states required) safety device.
I'm installing a breaker under the hood with a cable into the cab of my
truck. It will be capable of either emergency pull to shut down, or push
to reset.
Bob




> Pestka, Dennis J wrote:
> > I purchased all my conversion components through Ken Koch when he still
> > owned KTA.
> > As part of this package, I received 2 large circuit breakers that will
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

www.kta-ev.com


Or any of the other EV parts suppliers should have it.

Joseph H. Strubhar

Web: www.gremcoinc.com

E-mail: [email protected]
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Willis, Ben" <[email protected]>
To: <[email protected]>; "'Electric VehicleDiscussion List'" 
<[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, August 28, 2008 5:55 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Large Circuit Breakers


> Bob,
>
> Do you have a source for the breaker. I need to order one.
>
>
> Thanks!
>
> Ben in SC
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On 
> Behalf Of Robert Brown
> Sent: Thursday, August 28, 2008 8:23 AM
> To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Large Circuit Breakers
>
> Hello Dennis,
> I've had the same question.
> Some layouts and schematics show breakers, some do not.
> Some install them within reach of the driver somewhere in the cab, some
> under the hood. The under the hood installations usually include a
> control cable for emergency shut-off (or to reset).
>
> I have concluded that they are pretty much strongly recommended, in some
> localities might even be required for safety reasons (and checked during
> inspection?).
> My take is, that an emergency circuit breaker is a strongly recommended
> optional (in some states required) safety device.
> I'm installing a breaker under the hood with a cable into the cab of my
> truck. It will be capable of either emergency pull to shut down, or push
> to reset.
> Bob
>
>


> > Pestka, Dennis J wrote:
> >> I purchased all my conversion components through Ken Koch when he still
> >> owned KTA.
> >> As part of this package, I received 2 large circuit breakers that will
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Hello Dennis,

If you look at my EV circuit breaker system on my EV, you will not see the 
typical circuit breaker housing that contains moveable contacts and over 
load trips or relays that the large K, L, and M frame circuit breakers have.

These type of breakers have removable covers, and we can replace the 
contacts and over loads for any ampere that is in range of the frame size.

Many options can be added to these type of breaker which one is a remote 
control operation of this breaker. The physical size of these type of 
breaker was too large to get one in my EV or even two which is what I wanted 
for complete isolation of the battery pack from the control system and 
isolation of the battery charger from the control system while the charge is 
on.

So I opt for a circuit breaking unit that consist of the open contacts 
portion mounted on a chassis board that can be operated remotely and a 
overload section that consist of a Buss Semiconductor fuse that has a 
interrupting capacity of 200,000 amps and a continuous rating of 400 amps.

The contact portion is a Cable Form contactor which is design for EV's at a 
specific main battery voltage which the contactor coil is a line voltage 
type that is control by the main battery voltage. It has a 2000 amp 
interrupting rating at 600 amp continuous.

My main battery is a 180 volt pack, that is charge to 233.5 volts and can 
discharge to 157.5 volts and can sag much lower than that. This type of EV 
contactor can operated from 250 volts down to 9 volts without drop off with 
a low battery voltage sag.

I use two of these circuit breaking units, one for the positive and negative 
of the main battery and mounted as close to the battery pack as possible. 
These units are first turn on by a 12 volt control relay by the ignition 
switch which comes on first before the main contactors comes on.

When these units come on, then the main contactor and controller is turn on.

These units are normally call a safety shut down system, which can be a EV 
contactor and Over Loads section or a combination enclose molded breaker 
enclosure that can be operated remotely.

To use this system as a emergency shut down, I use several switches that can 
disconnected the main battery pack from all onboard systems in the EV. One 
switch is a Red lever on the shifter, that is normally use for a line lock 
or lock up system. One is two rocker switches on the console just behind 
the shifter. Another is the ignition key it self, and another one in the 
motor bay that can kill the 12 volt accessory unit and/or 12 volt battery.

If you are using a non-isolated charger, it is a good ideal to turn off the 
circuit breaker that can shut down both the positive and negative side of 
the main battery which will also isolated the charging voltage from the main 
contactor and controller.

One time, when I was charging the pack, without disconnecting the batteries 
from the controller, I had arcing across the motor commentator on down to 
the motor shaft which is cause by the conduction of brush dust. I also took 
out my DC-DC converter which had a 60 over voltage on that unit.

Roland







> > Pestka, Dennis J wrote:
> > > I purchased all my conversion components through Ken Koch when he still
> > > owned KTA.
> > > As part of this package, I received 2 large circuit breakers that will
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> I'm installing a breaker under the hood with a cable into the cab of my
> truck. It will be capable of either emergency pull to shut down, or push
> to reset.
> Bob

When my breaker trips it takes two hands to reset it.
MUCH more than when I turn it off and reset it.
Leaves a huge painfull dent in my hand.
Big old 125 amp thermal magnetic 3phase.
No cable would ever do.
I can reach it from my seat so when it pops it only takes a moment to reset.
Tom Meyers


_______________________________________________
General EVDL support: http://evdl.org/help/
Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
Archives: http://evdl.org/archive/
Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Does anyone know what the differences are between AC circuit breakers 
and DC circuit breakers? 


_______________________________________________
General EVDL support: http://evdl.org/help/
Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
Archives: http://evdl.org/archive/
Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Does anyone know what the differences are between AC circuit breakers
> and DC circuit breakers?
>
DC arcs are much harder to quench.
So they derate the AC voltage rating by about 3.
If you have a 600VAC breaker then typically it's good to 190VDC.
Look close on the body of the breaker, they usually specify the DC value in 
fine (tiny) print somewhere.
On a three phase breaker they will have you loop the DC through all three in 
a series string to get the 600V rating.
For myself at 48V I get away with a single pass. 

_______________________________________________
General EVDL support: http://evdl.org/help/
Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
Archives: http://evdl.org/archive/
Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

A DC circuit breaker has larger pads and more clearance when breaking. A 
250 VDC circuit breaker pads and clearances will have about the same 
specifications of a 600 Vac 2 pole or 3 pole L frame breaker rated at 400 
amps or a 600 Vac 2 poll or 3 pole M frame breaker rated at 1000 amps.

These duel rated breakers will set you back $5000.00 for the L frame for 450 
amps and the M frame at 1000 amps for about $7000.00 from General Electric, 
Westinghouse, NTE, Cutler Hammer or Square D.

Now you see why I use two $600.00 EV contactors and a 400 amp semiconductor 
Bussman 400 amp bolt in fuse for $56.00.

Roland


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Roger Heuckeroth" <[email protected]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, August 28, 2008 2:50 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Large Circuit Breakers


> Does anyone know what the differences are between AC circuit breakers
> and DC circuit breakers?
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> General EVDL support: http://evdl.org/help/
> Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
> Archives: http://evdl.org/archive/
> Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>
> 

_______________________________________________
General EVDL support: http://evdl.org/help/
Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
Archives: http://evdl.org/archive/
Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

That's a lot of money.
It doesn't have to cost that much.
You can use a 175A 3phase and parallel two of the three channels.
That gives 350 amps.
I got a 125A on eBay for $122 and a 175A at the local surplus shack for $35
Tom Meyers

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Roland Wiench" <[email protected]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, August 28, 2008 7:20 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Large Circuit Breakers


>A DC circuit breaker has larger pads and more clearance when breaking. A 
>250 VDC circuit breaker pads and clearances will have about the same 
>specifications of a 600 Vac 2 pole or 3 pole L frame breaker rated at 400 
>amps or a 600 Vac 2 poll or 3 pole M frame breaker rated at 1000 amps.
>
> These duel rated breakers will set you back $5000.00 for the L frame for 
> 450 amps and the M frame at 1000 amps for about $7000.00 from General 
> Electric, Westinghouse, NTE, Cutler Hammer or Square D.
>
> Now you see why I use two $600.00 EV contactors and a 400 amp 
> semiconductor Bussman 400 amp bolt in fuse for $56.00.
>
> Roland
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Roger Heuckeroth" <[email protected]>
> To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
> Sent: Thursday, August 28, 2008 2:50 PM
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Large Circuit Breakers
>
>
>> Does anyone know what the differences are between AC circuit breakers
>> and DC circuit breakers?
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> General EVDL support: http://evdl.org/help/
>> Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
>> Archives: http://evdl.org/archive/
>> Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>>
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> General EVDL support: http://evdl.org/help/
> Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
> Archives: http://evdl.org/archive/
> Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>
> 

_______________________________________________
General EVDL support: http://evdl.org/help/
Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
Archives: http://evdl.org/archive/
Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Check this one out on eBay.
Item number: 270268285036
Tom Meyers
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Roger Heuckeroth" <[email protected]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, August 28, 2008 5:50 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Large Circuit Breakers


> Does anyone know what the differences are between AC circuit breakers 
> and DC circuit breakers? 

_______________________________________________
General EVDL support: http://evdl.org/help/
Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
Archives: http://evdl.org/archive/
Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

If you want to increase the max breaking current or voltage, you must wire
them in series, not parrallel.
If you wire them in parrallel, and the individual circuit breakers arent
rated to a high enough breaking current, the last to open will arc.

Wiring the breakers in parrallel only increases their continuous current
rating (which you would have to be running a really low voltage, or very
high current setup to see 175A continuous on the battery side).

Matt 

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf
Of EVstuff
Sent: Friday, 29 August 2008 8:02 AM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Large Circuit Breakers

That's a lot of money.
It doesn't have to cost that much.
You can use a 175A 3phase and parallel two of the three channels.
That gives 350 amps.
I got a 125A on eBay for $122 and a 175A at the local surplus shack for $35
Tom Meyers

----- Original Message -----
From: "Roland Wiench" <[email protected]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, August 28, 2008 7:20 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Large Circuit Breakers


>A DC circuit breaker has larger pads and more clearance when breaking. A 
>250 VDC circuit breaker pads and clearances will have about the same 
>specifications of a 600 Vac 2 pole or 3 pole L frame breaker rated at 400 
>amps or a 600 Vac 2 poll or 3 pole M frame breaker rated at 1000 amps.
>
> These duel rated breakers will set you back $5000.00 for the L frame for 
> 450 amps and the M frame at 1000 amps for about $7000.00 from General 
> Electric, Westinghouse, NTE, Cutler Hammer or Square D.
>
> Now you see why I use two $600.00 EV contactors and a 400 amp 
> semiconductor Bussman 400 amp bolt in fuse for $56.00.
>
> Roland
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Roger Heuckeroth" <[email protected]>
> To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
> Sent: Thursday, August 28, 2008 2:50 PM
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Large Circuit Breakers
>
>
>> Does anyone know what the differences are between AC circuit breakers
>> and DC circuit breakers?
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> General EVDL support: http://evdl.org/help/
>> Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
>> Archives: http://evdl.org/archive/
>> Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>>
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> General EVDL support: http://evdl.org/help/
> Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
> Archives: http://evdl.org/archive/
> Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>
> 

_______________________________________________
General EVDL support: http://evdl.org/help/
Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
Archives: http://evdl.org/archive/
Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev


-- 
No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG. 
Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 270.6.7/1632 - Release Date: 25/08/2008
7:05 AM

_______________________________________________
General EVDL support: http://evdl.org/help/
Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
Archives: http://evdl.org/archive/
Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Solarseller.com and eBay both have great deals on 160V, 250A Airpax 
JLM/ALM series DC breakers. They should have the long delay curve (option 
53), usually listed as "Delay 53 Amps". I picked up 6 of them for $180.

Mike Willmon used them in his Electrabishi with temporary 1000A draws. 
I'll be putting some in my Toyota...

A couple of warnings:

1) Some Airpax breakers are only rated to 125VDC, not 160VDC
2) The plastic levers aren't the beefiest. I've had one break off on me, 
and Randy of CanEV has mentioned them being brittle also. Not good if you 
want to tie trip handles together.

At $30/breaker they're cheaper than fuses! Search the archives regarding 
putting these in series/parallel. Breakers in parallel are generally 
difficult to get right as they don't share current evenly. Breakers in 
series may or may not be recommended by the manufacturer. YMMV.

-Adrian

_______________________________________________
General EVDL support: http://evdl.org/help/
Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
Archives: http://evdl.org/archive/
Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> If you wire them in parrallel, and the individual circuit breakers arent
> rated to a high enough breaking current, the last to open will arc.

Three Phase breakers are ganged together. When one goes they all go.

> 
> Wiring the breakers in parrallel only increases their continuous current
> rating (which you would have to be running a really low voltage, or very
> high current setup to see 175A continuous on the battery side).

Yep. My rig runs 48V at 190 amp cruise.

Tom Meyers
> 

_______________________________________________
General EVDL support: http://evdl.org/help/
Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
Archives: http://evdl.org/archive/
Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Too bad solarseller is out of them and there are none listed on evilbay. I hear that solarseller's price was around $30. If anyone has a spare that they would sell please let me know off list.


Thanks!

Ben in SC

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Adrian DeLeon
Sent: Friday, August 29, 2008 1:16 AM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Large Circuit Breakers

Solarseller.com and eBay both have great deals on 160V, 250A Airpax
JLM/ALM series DC breakers. They should have the long delay curve (option
53), usually listed as "Delay 53 Amps". I picked up 6 of them for $180.

Mike Willmon used them in his Electrabishi with temporary 1000A draws.
I'll be putting some in my Toyota...

A couple of warnings:

1) Some Airpax breakers are only rated to 125VDC, not 160VDC
2) The plastic levers aren't the beefiest. I've had one break off on me,
and Randy of CanEV has mentioned them being brittle also. Not good if you
want to tie trip handles together.

At $30/breaker they're cheaper than fuses! Search the archives regarding
putting these in series/parallel. Breakers in parallel are generally
difficult to get right as they don't share current evenly. Breakers in
series may or may not be recommended by the manufacturer. YMMV.

-Adrian

_______________________________________________
General EVDL support: http://evdl.org/help/
Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
Archives: http://evdl.org/archive/
Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev


ANDERSON SCHOOL DISTRICT FIVE NOTICE: This email may contain business related information that is
PERSONAL AND CONFIDENTIAL. If you have received this email in error, this does not
constitute permission to examine, copy or distribute the accompanying material.
If you receive this message in error, please notify the sender immediately or call 864-260-5000.


_______________________________________________
General EVDL support: http://evdl.org/help/
Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
Archives: http://evdl.org/archive/
Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

from Tom Meyers
> You can use a 175A 3phase and parallel two of the three channels.
> That gives 350 amps.



> matt wrote:
> > If you want to increase the max breaking current or voltage, you must wire
> > them in series, not parallel.
> > If you wire them in parallel, and the individual circuit breakers arent
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Lee Hart" <[email protected]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, August 29, 2008 10:54 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Large Circuit Breakers


> from Tom Meyers
> > You can use a 175A 3phase and parallel two of the three channels.
> > That gives 350 amps.
>
> Wiring breakers in parallel theoretically increases their current
> rating; but it doesn't work in practice unless you very carefully
> measure and match the on-resistance of each one. A manufacturer can do
> this; you'll sometimes see (for example) a 500 amp breaker that
> physically consists of two 250 amp breakers with specially shaped metal
> jumpers connecting them in parallel. But if you try it yourself, each
> breaker with have a different on resistance, so the current will not
> divide equally between them.

These are three phase, ganged, "Thermal-Magnetic" breakers.
Consider the thermal side......This is a resistance heater.
The resistance has to be the same from one phase element to the next so that 
they trip at the rated current.
Thus the current from one to the next won't change much.

I've paralleled twice in my car.
It works great!
Trips when I do dumb things and leaves me alone the rest of the time.
The first was a 125A. I used all three channels.
The second is a 175A and I use two channels.
Tom Meyers


_______________________________________________
General EVDL support: http://evdl.org/help/
Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
Archives: http://evdl.org/archive/
Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> EVstuff wrote:
> > These are three phase, ganged, "Thermal-Magnetic" breakers. Consider
> > the thermal side... This is a resistance heater. The resistance has
> > to be the same from one phase element to the next so that they trip
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Too bad solarseller is out of them and there are none listed on evilbay. 
> I hear that solarseller's price was around $30. If anyone has a spare 
> that they would sell please let me know off list.

The ones on e-bay show up all the time. Usually from the same companies:

One 160V, 250A Airpax for $64 + $11 shipping, Ebay item #310079366410
Six 125V, 250A Airpax for $99 + $25 shipping, Ebay item #350041712840

The Heinemann equivalent sold by KTA and EV Parts is usually areound 
$200-$300.

Here's a Square-D 400A, 600VDC 3 pole thermal-magnetic breaker for $400: 
item #350073513131

Happy parts hunting,

-Adrian

_______________________________________________
General EVDL support: http://evdl.org/help/
Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
Archives: http://evdl.org/archive/
Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

The Square D circuit breaker that is list in E-Bay is listed as a MA11128 
does not show up in my Square D catalog as a 600 VDC. Some one read the 
label wrong. It should be MAL1125 which is a 1000 amp frame which someone 
change the magnetic trip settings to 225 amp.

The voltage label for these breakers will read 3-pole, 600Vac, 250Vdc. The 
400 amp magnetic trip circuit breaker number should be MAL26400.

If this Square D breaker ever fails not to trip, even 50 years from now, you 
can return it to a authorized Square D supplier and the factory will replace 
it free if it was not correctly change by the user. You can even have you 
residential type of breakers replace free if they do not trip.

Roland


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Adrian DeLeon" <[email protected]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Saturday, August 30, 2008 1:51 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Large Circuit Breakers


> > Too bad solarseller is out of them and there are none listed on evilbay.
> > I hear that solarseller's price was around $30. If anyone has a spare
> > that they would sell please let me know off list.
>
> The ones on e-bay show up all the time. Usually from the same companies:
>
> One 160V, 250A Airpax for $64 + $11 shipping, Ebay item #310079366410
> Six 125V, 250A Airpax for $99 + $25 shipping, Ebay item #350041712840
>
> The Heinemann equivalent sold by KTA and EV Parts is usually areound
> $200-$300.
>
> Here's a Square-D 400A, 600VDC 3 pole thermal-magnetic breaker for $400:
> item #350073513131
>
> Happy parts hunting,
>
> -Adrian
>
> _______________________________________________
> General EVDL support: http://evdl.org/help/
> Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
> Archives: http://evdl.org/archive/
> Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>
> 

_______________________________________________
General EVDL support: http://evdl.org/help/
Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
Archives: http://evdl.org/archive/
Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Airpax
0721
JLE-1-1-53-3-B4-250
MAX V160 AIC10.000
Hertz
Delay 53
Trip Amps 313

Use on Vertical
Surface Only
Specific Purpose
Not For Gen. Use

Dennis
Elsberry, MO 

-----Original Message-----
From: Willis, Ben [mailto:[email protected]] 
Sent: Thursday, August 28, 2008 7:09 AM
To: 'Electric Vehicle Discussion List'
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Large Circuit Breakers

Dennis,

I would like to add one of these to my system. Do you have any specifics
on the ones that you have?

Ben

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On
Behalf Of Pestka, Dennis J
Sent: Thursday, August 28, 2008 7:15 AM
To: EV Discussion Group
Subject: [EVDL] Large Circuit Breakers

I purchased all my conversion components through Ken Koch when he still
owned KTA.
As part of this package, I received 2 large circuit breakers that will
be installed between one of my contactors and the positive side of the
battery pack.
I will be running a 156V system with a 9" Advanced and a 1200A Raptor
controller.

I have been looking at a lot of photos of other electric vehicles to get
ideas on layout of components under the hood.
I'm curious why I don't see these circuit breakers on the other
conversions that I've been looking at.
Are they installed somewhere else, or are they not used on most
conversions.


Thanks;
Dennis
Elsberry, MO
_______________________________________________
General EVDL support: http://evdl.org/help/ Usage guidelines:
http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
Archives: http://evdl.org/archive/
Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev


ANDERSON SCHOOL DISTRICT FIVE NOTICE: This email may contain business
related information that is PERSONAL AND CONFIDENTIAL. If you have
received this email in error, this does not constitute permission to
examine, copy or distribute the accompanying material.
If you receive this message in error, please notify the sender
immediately or call 864-260-5000.




_______________________________________________
General EVDL support: http://evdl.org/help/
Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
Archives: http://evdl.org/archive/
Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Also of interest, are products from www.heinemann-electric.com :

Their high-power DC product line is here:
http://www.heinemann-electric.com/acrobat/gj1p060701.pdf

I'm calling them this afternoon for pricing, etc.

_______________________________________________
General EVDL support: http://evdl.org/help/
Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
Archives: http://evdl.org/archive/
Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

True but if your vehicle or home are destroyed because a breaker did 
not trip and there is nothing left of the breaker it won't matter much 
because you have to prove you had a SquareD installed. Ouch! Excellent 
warranty.






> Roland Wiench wrote:
> 
> > f this Square D breaker ever fails not to trip, even 50 years from
> > now, you
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

As promised, here is the info for Hienemann-Electric DC contactors.

A straight-forward EV breaker:
Ref: http://www.heinemann-electric.com/m-cata.htm
Rated 125VDC, 250Amps, slow-blow "curve 1"
PN: GJ1-B3AR-22U-D-DU-250-01 (a.k.a.: GJ1-B3-A-w-250-125VDC-1)
Price, single unit: 227.85$ CND
This would need a cable-pull mod if you need to remote activate it as a kill
switch.

As discussed with their design engineer, a very insteresting solution is
their dual-pole relay-trip device:
A internal 12VDC relay could trip both poles based on a signal from a
dash-mounted momentary 'emergency' button.
Pole 1 (B2) would cut out Bat+, sense/break the current, and provide aux
contacts for sensing breaker position (warning light)
Pole 2 (B62) would cut out Bat-, contain the relay, and provide aux contacts
to cut out the 12V power to the relay coil (in the case of a non-momentary
kill switch).
PN: GJ2-B2-B62-250-125/250VDC-1 12V-Trip
Price, single unit: 484.10$
Note that this is a 250VDC rated breaker.

Obviously, you could rig a solenoid or cable to the simple breaker to trip
remotely. But I'll probably want to get a second breaker to completely
isolate the pack (both + and -) for charging/maintenance anyway. So for 28$
I'd get an electrically-activated remote cutout and a breaker-position
indicator circuit.

Some ascii art:

Warning Emergency Cutout
Light Normally Open
| | | |
| |___12V-___________| |
| |
| |
| ____12V+___ ____ |
| | | | | |
_|_|___________|__|____|___|__
|AuxSw | AuxSw Relay |
|NO | NC Coil |
| | Trip |
| Pole 1 | Pole 2 |
| Current | |
| Sensing | |
| Trip | |
|___________|_________________|
Bat+ Bat+ Bat- Bat-
In Out In Out

Any thoughts?

-Nick
_______________________________________________
General EVDL support: http://evdl.org/help/
Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
Archives: http://evdl.org/archive/
Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Nick and All,
I have not been following this thread, so maybe I missed something,
but using a Hienemann breaker AND two contactors is a common
conversion configuration. 

On both my rigs, the key engages one contactor on one side of the traction 
pack, and wakes up the controller. The controller then pulls the other 
contactor in, on the opposite side of the traction pack.

Since you never, ever, never, want the 2/0 traction wire in the cabin with 
you, the breaker is located under the hood, and for the "Oh [email protected]" emergency 
cable, I use a heavy duty PTO cable (power take off). 

I like having a physical disconnect, so I would be leery about using the 
relay-trip version you mention.
Hope this helps...
Suck Amps,
BB

>Date: Thu, 4 Sep 2008 11:34:32 -0400
>From: "nicolas drouin" 
>
>As promised, here is the info for Hienemann-Electric DC contactors.
>
>A straight-forward EV breaker:
>Ref: http://www.heinemann-electric.com/m-cata.htm
>Rated 125VDC, 250Amps, slow-blow "curve 1"
>PN: GJ1-B3AR-22U-D-DU-250-01 (a.k.a.: GJ1-B3-A-w-250-125VDC-1)
>Price, single unit: 227.85$ CND
>This would need a cable-pull mod if you need to remote activate it as a kill
>switch.
>
>As discussed with their design engineer, a very insteresting solution is
>their dual-pole relay-trip device:
> A internal 12VDC relay could trip both poles based on a signal from a
>dash-mounted momentary 'emergency' button.
>Pole 1 (B2) would cut out Bat+, sense/break the current, and provide aux
>contacts for sensing breaker position (warning light)
>Pole 2 (B62) would cut out Bat-, contain the relay, and provide aux contacts
>to cut out the 12V power to the relay coil (in the case of a non-momentary
>kill switch).
>PN: GJ2-B2-B62-250-125/250VDC-1 12V-Trip
>Price, single unit: 484.10$
>Note that this is a 250VDC rated breaker.
>
>Obviously, you could rig a solenoid or cable to the simple breaker to trip
>remotely. But I'll probably want to get a second breaker to completely
>isolate the pack (both + and -) for charging/maintenance anyway. So for 28$
>I'd get an electrically-activated remote cutout and a breaker-position
>indicator circuit.
>
>Some ascii art:
>
> Warning Emergency Cutout
> Light Normally Open
> | | | |
> | |___12V-___________| |
> | |
> | |
> | ____12V+___ ____ |
> | | | | | |
> _|_|___________|__|____|___|__
> |AuxSw | AuxSw Relay |
> |NO | NC Coil |
> | | Trip |
> | Pole 1 | Pole 2 |
> | Current | |
> | Sensing | |
> | Trip | |
> |___________|_________________|
> Bat+ Bat+ Bat- Bat-
> In Out In Out
>
> Any thoughts?
>
>-Nick

_______________________________________________
General EVDL support: http://evdl.org/help/
Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
Archives: http://evdl.org/archive/
Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

On 4 Sep 2008 at 0:00, Dave (Battery Boy) Hawkins wrote:

> Since you never, ever, never, want the 2/0 traction wire in the cabin with
> you, the breaker is located under the hood, and for the "Oh [email protected]" emergency
> cable, I use a heavy duty PTO cable (power take off).

I'm puzzled as to why you're so adamant about not having traction wiring in 
the passenger area. I'd rather have the breaker inside the car, where it's 
protected from weather (though now that I think about it, I guess it could 
be inside a weatherproof box under the hood). 

Also, with the breaker right next to me, I don't have to rely on a cable 
which might slip or break (those flexible choke cables are notorious).

In a DC car, I think you really want to have the most intimate relationship 
possible with your ultimate "whoa" device. 

I must have missed something here. What is the danger I haven't considered 
related to high voltage wiring in the cabin?

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
EVDL Information: http://www.evdl.org/help/
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = 
Note: mail sent to "evpost" or "etpost" addresses will not 
reach me. To send a private message, please obtain my 
email address from the webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ .
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =


_______________________________________________
General EVDL support: http://evdl.org/help/
Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
Archives: http://evdl.org/archive/
Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

David (and All),
You ARE joking, right?! Think about how many amps can flow through 
the traction wiring if it is shorted, before a fuse and/or breaker
interrupts the flow...

The only traction wiring in the cabin should be for instrumentation,
and ALL of those wires should be fused. And regarding the cable going
to the breaker, I almost mentioned in my post NOT to use a cheap 
choke cable like you mention, but I did say "I use a heavy duty PTO 
cable (power take off)."

The NEDRA Handbook/Rulebook is a great source for something like this,
and I quote from Section 8.1 under Batteries:
"Traction motor and/or any high current wiring may not be located in driver's compartment. 
In the event of a short circuit, the traction wiring will sometimes light up like a fuse. It's important to keep the smoke and plasma away from the driver. If it is impractical to route the high-current wiring outside the driver's compartment (like in a dragster) it must be routed through a duct or conduit that will contain the smoke and plasma that would result from a short circuit. Thus, it will be sealed from the driver's compartment, just like the batteries."

I'm sure Bill has posted about this so I'll go check the archives...
Oh yes, here it is at:
http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/evdl_post_archive/message/26048
Sun Mar 2, 2008 7:19 am 
Re: [EVDL] Cables in Cabin 
You should try to route the high-current traction cable outside of
the driver's compartment if it is practical. If you need to route them
inside the compartment, you should use suitable electrical conduit or
some sort of sturdy sheet metal duct covering them completely.

There are two reasons for this.

1) You need to protect the cables from mechanical damage. You drop a
tool box on the unprotected cable and go over some rough road and you
are going to have some fireworks. A lady's high heel can pierce the
insulation with even more disastrous results.

2) A short can cause the unprotected cable to spray plasma, spew
molten copper snot, and will fill the cabin with smoke almost
instantly. It is tough to keep the car on the road when you are
blind, burning, and choking.

You don't run traction wiring through the cabin for similar reasons
that you don't run fuel lines through the cabin.

Bill Dube'

>Date: Thu, 04 Sep 2008 21:51:26 -0400
>From: "EVDL Administrator"
>
>On 4 Sep 2008 at 0:00, Dave (Battery Boy) Hawkins wrote:
>
>> Since you never, ever, never, want the 2/0 traction wire in the cabin with
>> you, the breaker is located under the hood, and for the "Oh [email protected]" emergency
>> cable, I use a heavy duty PTO cable (power take off).
>
>I'm puzzled as to why you're so adamant about not having traction wiring in 
>the passenger area. I'd rather have the breaker inside the car, where it's 
>protected from weather (though now that I think about it, I guess it could 
>be inside a weatherproof box under the hood). 
>
>Also, with the breaker right next to me, I don't have to rely on a cable 
>which might slip or break (those flexible choke cables are notorious).
>
>In a DC car, I think you really want to have the most intimate relationship 
>possible with your ultimate "whoa" device. 
>
>I must have missed something here. What is the danger I haven't considered 
>related to high voltage wiring in the cabin?
>
>David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
>EVDL Administrator

_______________________________________________
General EVDL support: http://evdl.org/help/
Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
Archives: http://evdl.org/archive/
Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

It's important to keep the smoke and plasma away from the driver. If it is
impractical to route the high-current wiring outside the driver's
compartment (like in a dragster) it must be routed through a duct or conduit
that will contain the smoke and plasma that would result from a short
circuit. Thus, it will be sealed from the driver's compartment, just like
the batteries."

Hens the reason they are orange in a orange cage on the bottom side of my
insight?

Mark Grasser
Eliot, ME

_______________________________________________
General EVDL support: http://evdl.org/help/
Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
Archives: http://evdl.org/archive/
Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

The Heinemann GJ1-B3 breaker also comes in a 160V version. KTA used to 
sell them, but all I see now are the Airpax versions. About $200 US IIRC.

-Adrian

On Thu, 04 Sep 2008 08:34:32 -0700, nicolas drouin 


> <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> > As promised, here is the info for Hienemann-Electric DC contactors.
> >
> ...


----------

