# Two Netgain 11" Motors!



## kek_63 (Apr 20, 2008)

LithiumaniacsEVRacing said:


> Remember the torque from two 11" motors is more than two 9" motors with the same amps/volts.


Are you sure about that? I would think that the only increase would be related to efficiency. Same amps/volts going in = same power coming out.

Keith


----------



## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

Honestly, I am not. Is it possible different size motors operating on the same volts and torque can achieve the same amounts of torque and horsepower? Hmmmmmn! I know one thing, it will take much more effort for a 9" to match an 11". 



kek_63 said:


> Are you sure about that? I would think that the only increase would be related to efficiency. Same amps/volts going in = same power coming out.
> 
> Keith


----------



## rwaudio (May 22, 2008)

from what I've read, power in = power out - losses. My understanding of torque is the 11" motor will produce more torque at a given RPM, HOWEVER it will take more voltage to get the 11" motor up to the same RPM as the 9" so lower torque of the 9" motor but at a higher RPM is roughly equal to the POWER the 11" motor is putting out since it is higher torque at a lower RPM for a given Voltage/Current combination.

It's a similar principal to the battery voltage/current is not equal to motor voltage/current but the power is roughly the same.

*Torque and RPM of a 9" motor will not be equal to the 11" motor however power is roughly the same. *So if you were to use a slightly higher gear ratio on the 9" motor the power to the wheels should be the same as the 11" motor until you reach the overload point where the motors size/mass start to play a big part in efficiency and power output.

That stupid law of conservation of energy states that power output cannot exceed power input. So an 85% efficient 9" motor is going to put out the same amount of power as an 85% efficient 11" motor. You may have to adjust gear ratios to get the same torque to the ground.

It's not untill you start to need the thermal mass of the larger motor that a larger motor will allow you to maintain a higher power level.


----------



## kek_63 (Apr 20, 2008)

That messes with my simplistic understanding that amps=torque. At zero rpm (stall), how can torque be different if amperage is the same? I realize the torque and hp curves will be different for the 9" and 11" motors, but I don't see how the peak torque can be higher through the 11".

Keith


----------



## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

Very good explaination. I feel much safer with an 11". 



rwaudio said:


> from what I've read, power in = power out - losses. My understanding of torque is the 11" motor will produce more torque at a given RPM, HOWEVER it will take more voltage to get the 11" motor up to the same RPM as the 9" so lower torque of the 9" motor but at a higher RPM is roughly equal to the POWER the 11" motor is putting out since it is higher torque at a lower RPM for a given Voltage/Current combination.
> 
> It's a similar principal to the battery voltage/current is not equal to motor voltage/current but the power is roughly the same.
> 
> ...


----------



## rwaudio (May 22, 2008)

kek_63 said:


> That messes with my simplistic understanding that amps=torque. At zero rpm (stall), how can torque be different if amperage is the same? I realize the torque and hp curves will be different for the 9" and 11" motors, but I don't see how the peak torque can be higher through the 11".
> 
> Keith


 
Not really, since you aren't making any power. Power is torque x rpm, so at stall the 11" motor could easily have more torque, but power is the same either way ZERO.

Amps = torque, and Volts = rpm. However the 9 and 11" motors will have different torque/amp and rpm/volt constants. If torque per amp is higher than motor X, then rpm per volt must be lower than motor X. It's all power in = power out - losses, there is no magical properties. Think of it like a gas engine, there is a good chance a 5L motor will have more power than a 2.5L motor but that's simply because it is able to transform more fuel into power. Since fuel for the electric car isn't quite so easy to ramp up, then a pair of 9" motors off a Zilla 2K with proper gearing should be similar in performance to a pair of 11" motors off a zilla 2k again with the proper gearing. For drag racing the limiting factor is most likely the Zilla 2k, (and/or the batteries) not the motor size. White Zombie beats up on those siamese IMPULSE 9's, not even regular Warp 9's with a Zilla 2k and they seem to do just fine. *Until you up the current and/or voltage you do not have more power than White Zombie, you just have a heavier car.*

Looks like you might be in the market for a Zilla 4K, there's already one custom unit out there, perhaps with enough money you could have one too.

I hope this doesn't come across negative, I'm just trying to clear up some myths.
Crodriver mentioned that short super high power runs don't seem to heat the motor the same way a much longer but low power drive does. This was mentioned when he had to disconnect the external blower that cools his motor when he had dc/dc converter problems. He estimated total power output was similar, but the short drag run didn't cause the same temperature rise in the motor.


----------



## rwaudio (May 22, 2008)

LithiumaniacsEVRacing said:


> Very good explaination. I feel much safer with an 11".


I do agree, that's why I bought an 11HV but with the controllers available you don't have more power, just a bigger safety limit before you push the motor to distruction.


----------



## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

There must be some reason why large trucks, buses and trains operate on much larger motors. The larger the motor the less stress on parts. I would believe it takes more energy for a smaller motor to match a larger motor when weight comes into the factor. If motor size did not matter, then all electric vehicles would operate on a small motor. Larger is better when matching vehicle weight to movement. Sounds good! 



kek_63 said:


> That messes with my simplistic understanding that amps=torque. At zero rpm (stall), how can torque be different if amperage is the same? I realize the torque and hp curves will be different for the 9" and 11" motors, but I don't see how the peak torque can be higher through the 11".
> 
> Keith


----------



## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

Netgain stats:

Warp 11"
135 Ft. pounds torque
43.7 HP
______________________

Warp 9"
70 Ft. pounds torque
32.3 HP
______________________

Warp 13"
130 ft. pounds torque
35.5 HP
______________________

Impulse 9"
60 Ft pounds torque
38.6 HP
______________________

All specs are based on 72 volts.


----------



## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

I totally understand your explanation. There are other facters in drag racing to add into the equation, tire traction is a huge factor. While WZ is getting great times in the 1/4 mile, he still is losing traction on launches. Our Camaro has some HUGE slicks on the rear and will get plenty of traction. We are installing the wheelie bars today. Like you mention total weight is another huge issue, even though our motors are heavier, the car will be very light. We have ordered fiberglass one piece nose, doors and trunk lid, these reduces the weight hundreds of pounds. Most of the car is aluminum to keep our weight close to 2000lbs. My Camaro is not street legal though, oh well. I will take her down the strip in front of my office, should be a sight to see. lucky I have many officer friends in our local gym. 



rwaudio said:


> Not really, since you aren't making any power. Power is torque x rpm, so at stall the 11" motor could easily have more torque, but power is the same either way ZERO.
> 
> Amps = torque, and Volts = rpm. However the 9 and 11" motors will have different torque/amp and rpm/volt constants. If torque per amp is higher than motor X, then rpm per volt must be lower than motor X. It's all power in = power out - losses, there is no magical properties. Think of it like a gas engine, there is a good chance a 5L motor will have more power than a 2.5L motor but that's simply because it is able to transform more fuel into power. Since fuel for the electric car isn't quite so easy to ramp up, then a pair of 9" motors off a Zilla 2K with proper gearing should be similar in performance to a pair of 11" motors off a zilla 2k again with the proper gearing. For drag racing the limiting factor is most likely the Zilla 2k, (and/or the batteries) not the motor size. White Zombie beats up on those siamese IMPULSE 9's, not even regular Warp 9's with a Zilla 2k and they seem to do just fine. *Until you up the current and/or voltage you do not have more power than White Zombie, you just have a heavier car.*
> 
> ...


----------



## rwaudio (May 22, 2008)

LithiumaniacsEVRacing said:


> I totally understand your explanation. There are other facters in drag racing to add into the equation, tire traction is a huge factor. While WZ is getting great times in the 1/4 mile, he still is losing traction on launches. Our Camaro has some HUGE slicks on the rear and will get plenty of traction. We are installing the wheelie bars today. Like you mention total weight is another huge issue, even though our motors are heavier, the car will be very light. We have ordered fiberglass one piece nose, doors and trunk lid, these reduces the weight hundreds of pounds. Most of the car is aluminum to keep our weight close to 2000lbs. My Camaro is not street legal though, oh well. I will take here down the strip in front of my office, should be a sight to see. lucky I have many officer friends in our local gym.


I agree, and I can't wait to see your car launch. Especially if you can get it to hook up with the motors in series and you have a big enough pack to keep the voltage up the whole race.

You probably said it somewhere, but are they Warp 11's or 11HV's?
Your Zilla turned out to be an HV?


----------



## Salty EV (Jun 8, 2009)

LithiumaniacsEVRacing said:


> There must be some reason why large trucks, buses and trains operate on much larger motors. The larger the motor the less stress on parts. I would believe it takes more energy for a smaller motor to match a larger motor when weight comes into the factor. If motor size did not matter, then all electric vehicles would operate on a small motor. Larger is better when matching vehicle weight to movement. Sounds good!


Main thing is longevity at a desired power level. Sure you run an 11" at a few hundred KW, but you won't be able to do it for very long before you start to melt stuff because of soo much heat/arcing. If you have say 15% of inefficiency heat that needs to be dissipated, a bigger motor will do it better since it has more thermal mass. Now if you had 100% efficient motor and assuming that the mechanical parts (i.e shaft, bearings, etc) could take the mechanical force then you are correct, we could use a very small motor, 200kw through something the size of a can of soda anyone. But unfortunately physics ruins our fun.


----------



## kek_63 (Apr 20, 2008)

LithiumaniacsEVRacing said:


> Netgain stats:
> 
> Warp 11"
> 135 Ft. pounds torque
> ...


These specs are just one point on the torque curve. In fact the specs shown here for the 13" and 11" would disprove your theory of the larger motor having greater torque. 

If you compare the Netgain chart for the Impulse 9" and the Warp 8" you will find them very close (when taking efficiency into account).

Warp 8" - 70 ft-lbs - 2744rpm - 463amps - 81.8% efficiency

Impulse 9" - 70 ft-lbs - 2754rpm - 449amps - 84.7% efficiency

I still think that your max torque is related more to your available amperage than your motor size. 

Later,
Keith


----------



## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

Our motors are not HV, but they have a little something special from George at Netgain.  So the Zilla 2KHV will work just fine. We are running the controller series to parallel. We are counting on huge jump off the line with all that torque and when she kicks into parallel the 200V to each 11" to finish the job. I could have ordered HV motors and build a larger pack with a heavier car (more batteries) and counted on higher rpm's to win a race, but we are going the lighter weight more torque route. We will test with many rear end gear ratio's to maximize our launch from high torque, lower ratio, lower rpm, aaaaaallll torque. Example, ever drive a car and start of in 2nd? If your motor can pull enough torque you will launch much quicker. Yes, it will be a strain on the drivetrain, but we have the strongest axles money can buy. I might need a good chiropractor after a few races! 



rwaudio said:


> I agree, and I can't wait to see your car launch. Especially if you can get it to hook up with the motors in series and you have a big enough pack to keep the voltage up the whole race.
> 
> You probably said it somewhere, but are they Warp 11's or 11HV's?
> Your Zilla turned out to be an HV?


----------



## DIYguy (Sep 18, 2008)

kek_63 said:


> These specs are just one point on the torque curve. In fact the specs shown here for the 13" and 11" would disprove your theory of the larger motor having greater torque.


The 11" was pulling 450 amps to generate that 135 ft/lbs
The 13" was pulling 375 amps to generate 130. ... also at a lower rpm. 

Get the amps on the 13" inch up to 450 and see what your torque is....


----------



## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

It's rather simplistic but I think of motors like drive shafts, if you aren't breaking your drive shaft then putting in a bigger one won't give you more power. Similarly, if your motor isn't melting from the battery pack output, putting in a bigger one won't give you more power. The optimal setup would probably be the smallest motor that can barely survive the power from the pack for the duration of the run. Same concept of dragster motors that get rebuilt after each race, run them right on the edge.


----------



## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

Good point. In my personal situation (Camaro Huge Slicks) I would be nervous trusting a 9" to handle the pressure from massive amounts of torque "gripping" the track all at once. When you have that amount of stress on the drivetrain you need the strongest parts available, that includes the motor. 



JRP3 said:


> It's rather simplistic but I think of motors like drive shafts, if you aren't breaking your drive shaft then putting in a bigger one won't give you more power. Similarly, if your motor isn't melting from the battery pack output, putting in a bigger one won't give you more power. The optimal setup would probably be the smallest motor that can barely survive the power from the pack for the duration of the run. Same concept of dragster motors that get rebuilt after each race, run them right on the edge.


----------



## rwaudio (May 22, 2008)

LithiumaniacsEVRacing said:


> Good point. In my personal situation (Camaro Huge Slicks) I would be nervous trusting a 9" to handle the pressure from massive amounts of torque "gripping" the track all at once. When you have that amount of stress on the drivetrain you need the strongest parts available, that includes the motor.


Correct me if I'm wrong but the shaft of both motors is 1 1/8" so the 11" is not "stronger" when you compare them that way. If anything the 9" would be a bit easier on itself and the rest of the drive train because the same torque comes at a little higher RPM. 

Did you read about the White Zombie runs where the controller was wired wrong and they estimate the Zilla was putting out 3000A to a pair of series Impulse 9's? They didn't break! I would think your coupler/drive train will need to be up to the task of handling the torque from the motor. Not the motor handling the "grip" from your tires.

What you need to work on is getting everything else up to the level to actually justify the need for a pair of 11's....


----------



## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

I'm going to post this in both threads:

Disclaimer - *I am not attacking you!* Anything I say is constructive criticism, and the only reason I am even replying is I would really like to see you have some measure of success.

You really should consider just stopping for a minute. Before you spend more, cut more, build more, you really should try to get your head aroundthe concept of drag racing with an electric powertrain. You're thinking almost entirely in terms of ICE technology and procedures - many of them are pretty much opposite with electric.


Bigger electric motors don't necessarily mean more power, or stronger.
I like the idea of siamese 11s but until you reach the point of melting a pair of 9s, they're probably costing you more than you're getting from them. Two cars, one with 9s, one with 11s, otherwise identical, the smaller motored car is probably going to fo faster - unless it reaches the point of zorching.
Theoretically, the biggest advantage of your 11s is more copper and more steel - you need to be focused on taking advantage of that or they will be nothing more than a weight penalty and bragging rights.
The best way I know to take advantage of them is to have so much power - _i.e._ a MONSTER battery pack - combined with enough chassis to push them to the ragged edge in a matter of seconds.
Personally, I think two Warp 11s are going to laugh at 2000 amps for a few seconds. (You only pull max amps long enough to get the car off the line and up to a certain velocity) You have the chassis and rear tire to push them, but your current pack won't have the power to test that limit.
You're pushing that pack to the ragged edge. One way or another, I can't see how it won't let you down. I think you should have a pack that can handle 2500-3000 amps within its "safe" limits. When I built my A123 packs on paper, I never counted on pushing the cells more than 50c, even though they are supposedly good for up to 60c. Also, the numbers I had at 50c were beyond what I think my chassis could get to the ground effectively, so it would probably be pulling more like 40c. Likewise, my voltage estimates were way over what I needed, to account for sag and for making multiple passes back-to-back (I am also planning to autocross).
I agree 100% with the guys about running the whole race in series. If you can push that Z2K-HV to 350 volts that would give you enough to stay near your motor's rated max voltage. Eventually you need an EHV version to have maybe a couple hundred volts ready for each motor. Remember you set the limits going to the motors with the controller, not the pack. Maybe Otmar will talk to you about how much voltage you can actually get away with in the pack with your controller. I wonder if he would upgrade it for you???
Again, this was all meant to be constructive criticism. If you see it any other way, but disregard the post and I'll shut up.


----------



## DIYguy (Sep 18, 2008)

toddshotrods said:


> Bigger electric motors don't necessarily mean more power, or stronger.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## kek_63 (Apr 20, 2008)

DIYguy said:


> toddshotrods said:
> 
> 
> > Bigger electric motors don't necessarily mean more power, or stronger.
> ...


----------



## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

DIYguy said:


> ...I'm having a hard time with these statements...in my little brain. Ya, bigger motors typically mean more power and stronger... That's why fractional motors are small.... and 100 hp motors are big...





kek_63 said:


> ...Of coarse the weakest link will show itself quickly when racing...


I'll admit, I didn't make my point very clearly. I'm tired from an already long week. Sorry.

The point is in reference to the difference in siamese 9 or 11-inch motors. Wayland beat up the pair of 8s he had been abusing for a while, and switched to the pair of siamese 9s he's running now. They are, as previously noted, Impulse 9s - not even Warp 9s. Also, as previously noted, even when he had a controller issue and dumped 3000 amps into the new motors, they didn't fail. In fact, IIRC, they didn't even show any noticeable wear on the comms - and they are still running strong. Also, IIRC, WZ's motors aren't getting that hot after each pass.

Warp 9s are theoretically stronger than the Impulse motors, and Ron is promising his car will actually be in the same (weight) ballpark as WZ. I doubt he would zorch a pair of properly built 9s either. He feels more comfortable with the 11s, that's fine, but why not try to utilize them?

Anyone who's been paying attention for the past few years should have noticed that Berube has always run right in the same ballpark with his single motors as Husted's siamese motors. He typically uses bigger motors (11 or 13"). That leads me to believe that the main advantage of siamese motors is more copper and more steel. I've actually had this conversation with people much more knowledgable than I, who have more or less confirmed my suspicions. It's not the magic of two motors - it's more physical "real estate". You can acheive that "real estate" a couple different ways, and both have been proven to work well. Killacycle and Rocket are excellent proof of that theory. Two small motors vs one big motor - both in the 7s @ 170+mph.

As has been noted, the shaft size of a Warp 9 and a Warp 11 are identical, so no strength is gained there in sizing up. Again, what you gain is copper and steel. If you have at your disposal two Warp 11s, instead of two Warp 9s, you have more copper and more steel. That's the real advantage. So, you concentrate on taking advantage of the additional copper and steel. From how I see it, that means pumping more current into them - more than what you can pump into a pair of 9s - or there was no point in having two 11s and more weight...

Yes, a bigger motor can theoretically "translate" more power, but if the limits of two 9s haven't even been approached yet, switching to two 11s isn't necessarily going to result in a quicker 1/4-mile pass. I would love to see someone find the limit of siamese 11s in less than 10 seconds, but it's going to take one helluva battery pack and controller to find it. That was my point - the concentration should be on the battery pack not the motors, in this case.

FWIW, I still have my time and money on a single 11".


----------



## kek_63 (Apr 20, 2008)

toddshotrods said:


> .......................................From how I see it that means pumping more current into them - more than what you can pump into a pair of 9s - or there was no point in having two 11s and more weight...


Exactly the point I've been trying to make - bigger motors don't go faster than everybody unless you put MORE "juice" through them than anyone else does. Will bigger motors last longer? Of coarse they will - Dennis has proven that with 100s of passes bracket racing.

Later,
Keith


----------



## dtbaker (Jan 5, 2008)

given 'same' internal windings, volts, and amps available.... it makes sense to my feeble mind that the larger diameter motor would have a longer moment arm giving more torque on the shaft. But acceleration may not be as good because the larger stator (thats the middle thing, right) weighs more.

kinda out of my area of expertise, but its quite possible that a smaller motor may provide quicker times on a drag strip if the gearing and power band is matched better to the available peak power and weight of the vehicle with the same voltage and amps available.


----------



## DIYguy (Sep 18, 2008)

Yes, I get ur drift. . . and I agree with it. I just don't want ppl to get the impression that smaller motors have the same potential for developing horse power.



toddshotrods said:


> Anyone who's been paying attention for the past few years should have noticed that Berube has always run right in the same ballpark with his single motors as Husted's siamese motors. He typically uses bigger motors (11 or 13").


This is an example... 1 motor "competing" (Wayland would disagree here..lol) with two. In the case of smaller diameter...the copper/steel you refer to obviously comes from the length with dual cores.

If I had put a 8 inch motor in my truck... I would not be happy. Yes, short duration, high current stints don't cause a lot of heat. I've seen this with mine lots of times as I always check the heat with my hand.

I agree with the rest.... even Wayland, Berube, Metric...etc...they are all after stiffer battery. . and it's Lipo... not LiFePo.


----------



## DIYguy (Sep 18, 2008)

kek_63 said:


> Exactly the point I've been trying to make - bigger motors don't go faster than everybody unless you put MORE "juice" through them than anyone else does. Will bigger motors last longer? Of coarse they will - Dennis has proven that with 100s of passes bracket racing.
> 
> Later,
> Keith


with the same amperage though, you can develop more torque with a larger diameter motor (assuming similar designs)... and if all the other pieces are in place to utilize it (gearing, traction etc)...... this can get you there faster.


----------



## EVfun (Mar 14, 2010)

DIYguy said:


> with the same amperage though, you can develop more torque with a larger diameter motor (assuming similar designs)... and if all the other pieces are in place to utilize it (gearing, traction etc)...... this can get you there faster.


On its own that won't get you there faster because it will be more torque at a lower rpm. Power is power, their ain't no free lunch. 

It is similar to playing with gearing. If to tall then you're slow. If to low then you run out of steam, you hit your low max speed early in the race, and fail to go faster. Your competition passes you at the far end of the track (you're slow again.) Just right is fastest. There are reasons for a larger motor, but it's not the larger part that makes you faster.


----------



## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

DIYguy said:


> with the same amperage though, you can develop more torque with a larger diameter motor (assuming similar designs)... and if all the other pieces are in place to utilize it (gearing, traction etc)...... this can get you there faster.


I think I see what's tripping people up on this now. You're thinking in terms of street car power levels. When you're pumping 2000+ amps into a motor (or pair of motors), from 0rpm, I don't think having "enough" torque is going to be the issue. On a regular street conversion you want enough motor, gearing, etc, to pull from a stop without digging too far into the batteries. This is to get more range, and to save wear and tear on the hard parts. Drag racing is a different animal. If you're saving too much, you're leaving too much on the table during the race.

I think there will be more effort trying to utilize the torque, and progressively roll it in, than needing that last litle bit two bigger motors would provide. Everything up to T/F, F/C, and P/S, deal with the issue of how fast they can roll the torque in off the line - and they don't have the instant-on, freight train, torque of an electric motor to deal with!

Remember Ron's goal is to come in under 2500lbs - putting the full torque of two 9s on the track - even with his chassis and tires - would be a challenge. The two 11s he has just make it that much more fun! ​ 
Another example of what I'm talking about can be seen with NHRA NitroT/F and F/C. When the car leaves the line with "too much clutch" the rear tires "shake" or go up in smoke. The driver instinctively "peddles it" backing off the throttle and back on again - repeating the cycle until he gets the tires to hook, realizes the race is lost, or finds a wall. Even with the hair trigger, supposed, on-off throttle of these nitro engines there is a ramp up back into power where the tires have a chance to "bite". Now consider a guy with a super stiff lipo pack, and electric race motors. He shakes the tires, and peddles furiously, in an attempt to find traction in time to save the race. Everytime he gets back on the accelerator the electric motors apply full torque, instantly...​ 
Get my drift? The problem really isn't torque - electric motors have that in abundance. The real trick is applying it, and then having a stiff enough pack, proper motor/gearing setup, to keep pushing through the other end. WZ proved all of this this year. His 60-ft times improved but, most importantly, his car kept pulling until he back out of the pedal. That's what you need to go quick and fast. I am all for superhero holeshots - they were my specialty on dragbikes - but getting shot out of a slingshot and falling on your face halfway to your target sucks.​


----------



## DIYguy (Sep 18, 2008)

EVfun said:


> On its own that won't get you there faster because it will be more torque at a lower rpm. Power is power, their ain't no free lunch.
> 
> It is similar to playing with gearing. If to tall then you're slow. If to low then you run out of steam, you hit your low max speed early in the race, and fail to go faster. Your competition passes you at the far end of the track (you're slow again.) Just right is fastest. There are reasons for a larger motor, but it's not the larger part that makes you faster.


Ok, there are two 2500 lb cars under the xmas tree. 1 car gets a Warp 8, one gets a warp11... 300 volts of the stiffest Kokam pack you can buy. Santa can supply all the "stuff" u want like gears and tires..(candy canes.. lol) 

The one to get to the other end of the 1/4 mile gets the rest of the presents.... 

Which kid do you want to play with?


----------



## DIYguy (Sep 18, 2008)

toddshotrods said:


> I think I see what's tripping people up on this now. You're thinking in terms of street car power levels. When you're pumping 2000+ amps into a motor (or pair of motors), from 0rpm, I don't think having "enough" torque is going to be the issue. On a regular street conversion you want enough motor, gearing, etc, to pull from a stop without digging too far into the batteries. This is to get more range, and to save wear and tear on the hard parts. Drag racing is a different animal. If you're saving too much, you're leaving too much on the table during the race.
> 
> I think there will be more effort trying to utilize the torque, and progressively roll it in, than needing that last litle bit two bigger motors would provide. Everything up to T/F, F/C, and P/S, deal with the issue of how fast they can roll the torque in off the line - and they don't have the instant-on, freight train, torque of an electric motor to deal with!
> 
> ...


Ya, I think you have touched on a lot of the issues. Some good analogies there. I just don't want folks thinking motor size has no influence on power capabilities. . . not even referring to Ron's set up at all.


----------



## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

Great thread, but too many different opinions. I understand everyone's point of view, but not sure who is correct. This would be a great thread for George Hamstra or Jim Husted to tap into.


----------



## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

The physics are what matters. If the motor can survive and transfer the power of the battery pack then I'm pretty sure the smallest, and therefore lightest, motor wins. Which car is going to be faster, one with a 500hp 350 or one with a 500hp 454?


----------



## DIYguy (Sep 18, 2008)

JRP3 said:


> The physics are what matters. If the motor can survive and transfer the power of the battery pack then I'm pretty sure the smallest, and therefore lightest, motor wins. Which car is going to be faster, one with a 500hp 350 or one with a 500hp 454?


OK u get the 8" ... I get the 11"... 

The 8 inch can't transfer the power in the same pack the 11 can. Maybe I'll give you a 4 inch then....lol


----------



## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

DIYguy said:


> Ok, there are two 2500 lb cars under the xmas tree. 1 car gets a Warp 8, one gets a warp11... 300 volts of the stiffest Kokam pack you can buy. Santa can supply all the "stuff" u want like gears and tires..(candy canes.. lol)
> 
> The one to get to the other end of the 1/4 mile gets the rest of the presents....
> 
> Which kid do you want to play with?


One, you stacked the deck with an 8" instead of a 9".

Two, the whole conversation was about siamese motors - in which case the two 9s are probably roughly comparable to a 13". About the same weight, and the two 9s may even have more commutator area and vital materials - depending on who built the 13.

Three, had you presented a fair comparison of three cars - twin 9s, twin 11s, and a 13 - I would put my money on the twin 9s or the 13 getting to the finish line first because they have less weight to pull. It's Christmas, meaning the track is going to be a little cool so the chance of any of them actually getting all their power on the ground is slim to none. The heavier car will be last, the most torque-laden second, and the most horsepower biased first; so the 9s would probably win - in a 2500lb car, on Christmas Day. 

Relax guys, I'm just having fun!


----------



## DIYguy (Sep 18, 2008)

toddshotrods said:


> One, you stacked the deck with an 8" instead of a 9".
> 
> Two, the whole conversation was about siamese motors - in which case the two 9s are probably roughly comparable to a 13". About the same weight, and the two 9s may even have more commutator area and vital materials - depending on who built the 13.
> 
> ...


I'm very relaxed... red wine is great for that... lol
I was trying to "unstack" the deck.... my points were not about the Siamese anything... I was just jumping in on the point about smaller motors potentially developing more power than bigger motors. It's just silly.... of course there are a whole lot of "buts"


----------



## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

LithiumaniacsEVRacing said:


> Great thread, but too many different opinions. I understand everyone's point of view, but not sure who is correct. This would be a great thread for George Hamstra or Jim Husted to tap into.


Don't let the opinions confuse you - the facts are clear.

You are only going as fast as your battery pack can push you - period. Batteries, batteries, batteries...
Two smaller motors or one bigger one both work - proven over and over again. You've made your motor choice just use all the best siamese tricks and techniques and go for it. We're just debating theory...
Did I mention batteries?


----------



## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

Leave it to me to get a subject beat the death!  I think this is a good learning thread for future EV racers. Here are my motor specs:

* WarP-11,Double ended shaft - advanced timing, 1.375", 32-tooth splined DE Shaft, Lift-eye bolt hole, thermal switch included. CE shaft is same as typical WarP 11
* TransWarP-11,Double ended shaft - advanced timing, 1.375", 32-tooth splined DE Shaft, Lift-eye bolt hole, thermal switch included. 8 mounting holes on CE, double wide bearings on DE. CE shaft has identical splines as DE 2" long.


----------



## DIYguy (Sep 18, 2008)

Todd's right. But ur not going to be competitive with the fastest cars. U'll definitely have some fun though.... WZ will smoke u with what u have planned. Berube might even smoke u too with Hawker lead and a 3800 lb truck. (one motor...btw... and it's not an 8 inch hehehehe)


----------



## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

Yes, I understand that power is in the pack, but how you use the power is not under agreement. Series/parallel or series only or parallel only. I am not worried on making that decision yet, wiring can be changed easly. The pack will be upgraded to 340V 65AH. How i use it is still under discussion. 



toddshotrods said:


> Don't let the opinions confuse you - the facts are clear.
> You are only going as fast as your battery pack can push you - period. Batteries, batteries, batteries...
> Two smaller motors or one bigger one both work - proven over and over again. You've made your motor choice just use all the best siamese tricks and techniques and go for it. We're just debating theory...
> Did I mention batteries?


----------



## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

DIYguy said:


> I'm very relaxed... red wine is great for that... lol
> I was trying to "unstack" the deck.... my points were not about the Siamese anything... I was just jumping in on the point about smaller motors potentially developing more power than bigger motors. It's just silly.... of course there are a whole lot of "buts"


Did anyone say smaller motors could have the potential to develop more power? "Developing power" is still the wrong concept in my opinion, it should be "transferring power". So with the same battery pack, which means the same power, the smallest motor that can handle the pack power is going to give you the lightest and fastest vehicle. You can't get more power out of a motor than you put into it, and the power put in comes from the battery pack.


----------



## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

LithiumaniacsEVRacing said:


> Leave it to me to get a subject beat the death!...


Naw, it's just the nature of this forum. Theory is big here, and civilized debate on how it applies is the spirit of the place. Actually, this has all been discussed many times, pretty much just like this. It's a fun subject to rehash from time to time because new developments can be factored in. I remember when the advantages of a stiff pack were mostly unproven theory - then WZ got Kokam...


----------



## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

Oh! don't count me out yet. I have a few tricks up my sleeve. I will get the Camaro under 11 seconds no doubt. Traction is one very important factor in the 1/4 mile racing. I might or might not beat WZ, but it will be close. 



DIYguy said:


> Todd's right. But ur not going to be competitive with the fastest cars. U'll definitely have some fun though.... WZ will smoke u with what u have planned. Berube might even smoke u too with Hawker lead and a 3800 lb truck. (one motor...btw... and it's not an 8 inch hehehehe)


----------



## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

Todd,

We have had our ups and downs on this forum. I am glad we can put that in the past. I am curious when are you going to finish your car? 



toddshotrods said:


> Naw, it's just the nature of this forum. Theory is big here, and civilized debate on how it applies is the spirit of the place. Actually, this has all been discussed many times, pretty much just like this. It's a fun subject to rehash from time to time because new developments can be factored in. I remember when the advantages of a stiff pack were mostly unproven theory - then WZ got Kokam...


----------



## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

I'm sure he's curious as well


----------



## rwaudio (May 22, 2008)

LithiumaniacsEVRacing said:


> Yes, I understand that power is in the pack, but how you use the power is not under agreement. Series/parallel or series only or parallel only. I am not worried on making that decision yet, wiring can be changed easly. The pack will be upgraded to 340V 65AH. How i use it is still under discussion.


What do you plan to set your battery current limit to?
Something at or below 20C I hope if you are using the 8ah "P" cells.

I'm just curious because I'm designing a similar headway pack but my current demands peak at 1000A, and I'm trying to keep the 340V (when charged) pack from sagging below 270V at 1000A draw giving me a peak of 270kw. For reference the minimum for me is 97 series cells and 7 parallel, and I have my doubts that it will do what I want, so 8 or 9 parallel might be required.

What kind of power do you expect to get from the pack? What kind of current at what sagged voltage?

(just digging a little to see if we can help you design a battery that delivers the performance you are expecting out of all of this, I would love to be able to build the car you're building but for me it'll be a 270kw stock Porsche)


----------



## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

I am using 8P (64AH) 108S (345V), this may change with more information. I am now working with a battery "builder" experienced in building Headway Packs. We will be discussing the issue of series to parallel and what size pack I need. I have 1000 batteries coming, so I have plenty. My rear three boxes must remain the same size, but my front battery box has plenty of room for expansion. 



rwaudio said:


> What do you plan to set your battery current limit to?
> Something at or below 20C I hope if you are using the 8ah "P" cells.
> 
> I'm just curious because I'm designing a similar headway pack but my current demands peak at 1000A, and I'm trying to keep the 340V (when charged) pack from sagging below 270V at 1000A draw giving me a peak of 270kw. For reference the minimum for me is 97 series cells and 7 parallel, and I have my doubts that it will do what I want, so 8 or 9 parallel might be required.
> ...


----------



## DIYguy (Sep 18, 2008)

JRP3 said:


> Did anyone say smaller motors could have the potential to develop more power?


yup, pretty much......

...and pretty much the topic gets changed to if they can handle the pack, and if two or more of these or those... power in equals power out....batteries and transfer of power etc etc.... 

I looked up "Develop" the first hit used an electric motor for an example... hehehe (sorry JRP... I know where ur coming from...really I do....


----------



## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

LithiumaniacsEVRacing said:


> Yes, I understand that power is in the pack... The pack will be upgraded to 340V 65AH. How i use it is still under discussion.


The car on the dragstrip will answer that question. Wire it up in series and have at it. If you pull all the way through you just keep fine-tuning. If it runs out of steam before the finish line, you have two options - more batteries or contactors and wiring for the s/p switch. Now that you've decided on a decent-sized pack don't wire all that s/p stuff up unless you actually need it. It comes with a penalty - the time it takes for the controller to execute the switch. If you don't have to pay the penalty...





LithiumaniacsEVRacing said:


> Oh! don't count me out yet. I have a few tricks up my sleeve. I will get the Camaro under 11 seconds no doubt. Traction is one very important factor in the 1/4 mile racing. I might or might not beat WZ, but it will be close.


I am in agreement with you there, and I have been harping for over a year about no one building a car that is built to launch hard. The game changer is now they have batteries that can keep accelerating. There is a such thing as getting "motored" on the other end. That happens regularly. Getting in front of the other guy is half the battle.

You do realize that WZ will almost certainly be a 9-sec car next year? I see the potential for him dipping into the 9s fairly well, not just a 9.99...






LithiumaniacsEVRacing said:


> Todd,
> We have had our ups and downs on this forum. I am glad we can put that in the past...


Well, with me whatever happens in the past is the past, as soon as it happens. The next minute is fresh and new. I've never really had a problem with you, I was just trying to get your attention. Your abrasive entrance here was going to kill the opportunity for this forum to help you reach your goals, and I tried to prevent that from happening. These guys really can help you succeed, if you seriously consider the advice that's being offered. Not saying you have to follow all of it, just seriously consider it and learn from what they're saying.

You've also mellowed out a quite a bit. 





LithiumaniacsEVRacing said:


> ...I am curious when are you going to finish your car?





JRP3 said:


> I'm sure he's curious as well


Ahahaha! That's funny JRP3! True too!  I was thinking about that today. I put a bunch of materials in shopping carts from two online places I like, thought about it for a while, and clicked the little red Xs to close the pages. 

More to the point, "finishing" it is not even on my radar right now. My main focus right now is whether I want to start using it as a static exhibit in 2011. I was planning to do that this year, but decided not to re-open.

Good question.


----------



## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

Okay guys explain this comment from Jim Husted/Plasma Team:

'Siamese 9' dual armature. Based on the shortened 'Impulse 9 motor, the siamesed version offers the *increased torque a 9 inch motor has over an 8 inch*, while the shorter length of this stubby motor pair is about the same as the outgoing Siamese 8. A Siamesed pair of full length 9s would not have fit the Zombie's limited under hood space and would have also added another 100 lbs. to the car...the siamesed pair of Impulse style 9s is just 25 lbs. heavier than the previous Siamese 8 motor! (below left) Bigger green Siamese 9 and the smaller purple Siamese 8 being retired. (below center) Jim 'Motor Dog' Husted doing surgery on the Siamese 9 so that the Zombie's reworked Siamese 8 motor brackets will bolt to the motor case. (below right) The Siamese 9 mounted in the car. 

http://www.plasmaboyracing.com/history/2010.php


----------



## DIYguy (Sep 18, 2008)

LithiumaniacsEVRacing said:


> Okay guys explain this comment from Jim Husted/Plasma Team:
> 
> 'Siamese 9' dual armature. Based on the shortened 'Impulse 9 motor, the siamesed version offers the *increased torque a 9 inch motor has over an 8 inch*, while the shorter length of this stubby motor pair is about the same as the outgoing Siamese 8. A Siamesed pair of full length 9s would not have fit the Zombie's limited under hood space and would have also added another 100 lbs. to the car...the siamesed pair of Impulse style 9s is just 25 lbs. heavier than the previous Siamese 8 motor! (below left) Bigger green Siamese 9 and the smaller purple Siamese 8 being retired. (below center) Jim 'Motor Dog' Husted doing surgery on the Siamese 9 so that the Zombie's reworked Siamese 8 motor brackets will bolt to the motor case. (below right) The Siamese 9 mounted in the car.
> 
> http://www.plasmaboyracing.com/history/2010.php


Looks pretty self explanatory to me...


----------



## rwaudio (May 22, 2008)

I don't think it's ever been disputed that the larger motors make more torque at a given Amperage, it doesn't change the fact that the power is the same, or that the power has very little to do with the motor itself and that is where the discusion has been centered.

More torque doesn't mean anything on it's own, that's just a gear ratio change away.




LithiumaniacsEVRacing said:


> Okay guys explain this comment from Jim Husted/Plasma Team:
> 
> 'Siamese 9' dual armature. Based on the shortened 'Impulse 9 motor, the siamesed version offers the *increased torque a 9 inch motor has over an 8 inch*, while the shorter length of this stubby motor pair is about the same as the outgoing Siamese 8. A Siamesed pair of full length 9s would not have fit the Zombie's limited under hood space and would have also added another 100 lbs. to the car...the siamesed pair of Impulse style 9s is just 25 lbs. heavier than the previous Siamese 8 motor! (below left) Bigger green Siamese 9 and the smaller purple Siamese 8 being retired. (below center) Jim 'Motor Dog' Husted doing surgery on the Siamese 9 so that the Zombie's reworked Siamese 8 motor brackets will bolt to the motor case. (below right) The Siamese 9 mounted in the car.
> 
> http://www.plasmaboyracing.com/history/2010.php


----------



## Salty EV (Jun 8, 2009)

DIYguy said:


> with the same amperage though, you can develop more torque with a larger diameter motor (assuming similar designs)... and if all the other pieces are in place to utilize it (gearing, traction etc)...... this can get you there faster.


I think the big thing that is happening is people are really getting stuck up on this leverage of the bigger motor thingy. HP is based on torque and RPM. People keep saying that the 11" will make more torque with the same amps and voltage which it will, but the big point being missed is it is at a LOWER RPM, and LOWER RPM means LOWER HP. Calculate it out, 9" vs 11" same voltage/amps and actual RPM that it is being measured at. You will be pleasantly surprised that math does not lie.


----------



## DIYguy (Sep 18, 2008)

Salty EV said:


> I think the big thing that is happening is people are really getting stuck up on this leverage of the bigger motor thingy. HP is based on torque and RPM. People keep saying that the 11" will make more torque with the same amps and voltage which it will, but the big point being missed is it is at a LOWER RPM, and LOWER RPM means LOWER HP. Calculate it out, 9" vs 11" same voltage/amps and actual RPM that it is being measured at. You will be pleasantly surprised that math does not lie.


Ur missing the point. Everyone knows what hp is.

Larger motor generally speaking means larger conductors... means more current...means more potential power... also more leverage for torque. Perhaps there are some upper rpm limits and as u get bigger (for drag applications) there comes a point of too much weight etc.
The crazy guys are not even at the point of pushing the bigger motors to their current limits. Just try pushing a smaller motor with 1800 amps. 

Line up the cars starting with a 6.7" motor and the most power it will handle in the same car. Then an 8" and a 9" and 11 and 13.... 

I know Major is laughing at me.... or shaking his head probably.....(he knows I'm no motor guy) lol


----------



## Salty EV (Jun 8, 2009)

DIYguy said:


> Ur missing the point. Everyone knows what hp is.
> 
> Larger motor generally speaking means larger conductors... means more current...means more potential power... also more leverage for torque. Perhaps there are some upper rpm limits and as u get bigger (for drag applications) there comes a point of too much weight etc.
> The crazy guys are not even at the point of pushing the bigger motors to their current limits. Just try pushing a smaller motor with 1800 amps.
> ...


Maybe we should use the term survive . A larger motor will be able to survive more power but will not create more power (assuming equal effeciency's, yes thats a long topic on its own). If I put 30kw into the 6.7" and 30kw into the 11", the 6.7" will be faster because it is lighter and both are easily able to handle that low of power. However if we did say 300kw, my bet would be that the 11" will be super fast, and the 6.7" will most like not survive and just zorch. Can we all agree on that


----------



## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

rwaudio said:


> What do you plan to set your battery current limit to?
> Something at or below 20C I hope if you are using the 8ah "P" cells...





LithiumaniacsEVRacing said:


> I am using 8P (64AH) 108S (345V)...


That's what I have been concerned with, and why I said you'll be pushing the pack to te ragged edge. I have only done a little light research on Headways, so I wasn't familiar with their limitations. To get 2000 amps out of your pack you'll be pushing a touch over 30c, and I thought that seemed high for the 8ah power cells. Safely, you can get about 1200-1300 amps. I also thought I remembered reading that they sag pretty good, meaning you might not have the top end you need.

I gave up on them because the pack was getting too heavy for my vehicle, with anywhere near the power I am after. That's not as much of a concern for you, so you may be able to strike a reasonable balance.


----------



## EVfun (Mar 14, 2010)

JRP3 said:


> Did anyone say smaller motors could have the potential to develop more power?





DIYguy said:


> yup, pretty much......
> 
> ...and pretty much the topic gets changed to if they can handle the pack, and if two or more of these or those... power in equals power out....batteries and transfer of power etc etc....


Nope, but there is no reason they will make less either. (at very high power levels there is a good chance the larger motor will make slightly more power buy virtue of being slightly more efficient, but it's also adding weight to the vehicle)

Of course you have to pick a motor large enough to take the power for at least 1/4 mile! (otherwise we would all be using the motors out of RC cars) After that, the difference is much smaller.

Lets use some numbers we can take right off the manufacturers graph. Say an ADC 8 inch motor at 400 amps and an ADC 9 inch motor at 400 amps. The 8 will be making 64 ft-lb. of torque and the 9 will be making 80 ft-lb. of torque. They thing is, at the same voltage the 9 will be turning only 80% of the rpm the 8 is turning. Looking at this another way, they will both have the same torque *and speed* at the rear wheel if the rear end gearing is 3.50 behind the 9 and 4.38 behind the 8.


----------



## EVfun (Mar 14, 2010)

DIYguy said:


> You do realize that WZ will almost certainly be a 9-sec car next year? I see the potential for him dipping into the 9s fairly well, not just a 9.99...


I'm going to go out on a limb here and predict that he will just slip into 9's next year. The White Zombie doesn't have an NHRA roll cage certified for 9.99 and faster. He is going to break into the 9's and get promptly kicked off the track again. This was a photographed and celebrated event when he got kicked off the track for running faster than 11.50 without a roll bar. He even went back out "in protest" and ran the NW Handling Systems box van down the drag strip (something like 26 seconds.)


----------



## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

As fast as his car is will soon be limited to traction issues. The more torque he adds the higher the chance is for tire slip. If he keeps upgrading the car it might need a shortened rear with slicks. No more street legal.



EVfun said:


> I'm going to go out on a limb here and predict that he will just slip into 9's next year. The White Zombie doesn't have an NHRA roll cage certified for 9.99 and faster. He is going to break into the 9's and get promptly kicked off the track again. This was a photographed and celebrated event when he got kicked off the track for running faster than 11.50 without a roll bar. He even went back out "in protest" and ran the NW Handling Systems box van down the drag strip (something like 26 seconds.)


----------



## EVfun (Mar 14, 2010)

LithiumaniacsEVRacing said:


> Okay guys explain this comment from Jim Husted/Plasma Team:
> 
> 'Siamese 9' dual armature. Based on the shortened 'Impulse 9 motor, the siamesed version offers the *increased torque a 9 inch motor has over an 8 inch*, [...]


I'm pretty sure Jim is wrong on this. The reason the cars gearing wasn't all kinds of wrong after the swap is because those 2 motors make almost the same torque per amp (and so almost the same rpm per volt.)

ADC 8
Impulse 9

The siamese 9's should make just slightly less torque per amp but since John was already traction limited off the line the resulting improvement in the top end (more rpm per volt) resulted in improving his times (for the same reason that taller gearing has been helping.)


----------



## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

EVfun said:


> I'm going to go out on a limb here and predict that he will just slip into 9's next year. The White Zombie doesn't have an NHRA roll cage certified for 9.99 and faster. He is going to break into the 9's and get promptly kicked off the track again. This was a photographed and celebrated event when he got kicked off the track for running faster than 11.50 without a roll bar. He even went back out "in protest" and ran the NW Handling Systems box van down the drag strip (something like 26 seconds.)


Good points. Wayland does seem to be very patient in upping the ante, so he may drag his feet for the whole year on the roll cage issue. I do remember them discussing that on the Yahoo Group, I think after the 10.25 pass. I was just looking at the potential of the car, not the team philosophy. I hope he pulls a rabbit of out his hat and comes out in 2011 with an 8.50-certified cage, but I won't hold my breath... 



LithiumaniacsEVRacing said:


> As fast as his car is will soon be limited to traction issues. The more torque he adds the higher the chance is for tire slip. If he keeps upgrading the car it might need a shortened rear with slicks. No more street legal.


Nah, lo-10s and hi-9s have been done to death on small tires. It's just a matter of how you apply it. I would rather have a chassis that can launch hard too, but I also finally understand John on keeping the car as close to "stock" as possible. Safety and reliability demand certain upgrades, but he's trying to run as fast as possible with a Datsun, not a race car.

He won't be adding more torque. He's already running sub-2-second 60ft times, and 0-60mph that would outright embarass the most expensive sports cars on the planet - with a Datsun econbox, that _looks_ like a Datsun econobox. It's about increasing the top end from here. (Numerically) lowering the final drive again _might_ set the car on fire again. Seeing how it's still launching hard, for what the chassis is (see video below), he may be able to lower the ratio a bit more and gain even more top end. That means at half track that little thing will just pull harder and harder all the way through the lights. His motors also have a higher rpm limit which lets him take advantage of this.




 

Narrowed rear ends are not illegal. As for the tires, there are DOT-approved racing slicks that have all the traction you need. The 10.5" DOT tire class muscle cars can stand the cars on the back bumper off the line, and drive home. There's a guy building a street-legal drag car now, called Sick Seconds, that will complete a *1000* mile ride to qualify and then attempt to rip off a six second ET!  He's running a bit bigger than a 10.5 tire.




 
The only thing you've mentioned that possibly makes your car illegal is the lexan windshield. Most cops really wouldn't even look for the DOT labeling, unless you actually got caught street racing. In my experience, they tend to smile and wave when they see tubbed out cars roaming around on the street - that are being driven safely and reasonably. I know a couple guys who've been stopped so the cop could get a better look. I have never had a tubbed car, but got the same thing for my dragbikes and custom vehicles.

Put some plates on that Camaro!


----------



## DIYguy (Sep 18, 2008)

EVfun said:


> I'm pretty sure Jim is wrong on this.


ya ok. Look, you may be able to find examples of motors of similar size one inch apart with similar specs. Bigger motors are capable of generating more power, in general. Why don't u run a 6 inch motor then? When using lift truck motors for example... .the bigger the lift, the bigger the motor. When Jim talks about using one of these in a vehicle, he says, to get one that is of sufficient size and weight for the application. Think about it. Applications requiring more HP use larger motors...on everything in the world.


----------



## DIYguy (Sep 18, 2008)

toddshotrods said:


> Bigger electric motors don't necessarily mean more power, or stronger.


I think that was the just of this.........


----------



## DIYguy (Sep 18, 2008)

Quote:
Originally Posted by *DIYguy*  
_You do realize that WZ will almost certainly be a 9-sec car next year? I see the potential for him dipping into the 9s fairly well, not just a 9.99..._




EVfun said:


> I'm going to go out on a limb here and predict that he will just slip into 9's next year. The White Zombie doesn't have an NHRA roll cage certified for 9.99 and faster. He is going to break into the 9's and get promptly kicked off the track again. This was a photographed and celebrated event when he got kicked off the track for running faster than 11.50 without a roll bar. He even went back out "in protest" and ran the NW Handling Systems box van down the drag strip (something like 26 seconds.)


Not that I necessarily disagree with this. But I didn't say that. That should be a quote from someone else.......


----------



## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

DIYguy said:


> ya ok. Look, you may be able to find examples of motors of similar size one inch apart with similar specs. Bigger motors are capable of generating more power, in general. Why don't u run a 6 inch motor then? When using lift truck motors for example... .the bigger the lift, the bigger the motor. When Jim talks about using one of these in a vehicle, he says, to get one that is of sufficient size and weight for the application. Think about it. Applications requiring more HP use larger motors...on everything in the world.





DIYguy said:


> I think that was the just of this.........


I think you're arguing the wrong point. Of course there is a reason for bigger, stronger, more powerful, motors. That's not the point here - if you keep the context of the thread in mind.

The title of the thread is "Two Netgain 11" Motors!". The point here is whether two 11" motors offer any advantage over two 9" motors. The more powerful/stronger argument comes up because that's what people believe - that if a car is fast with two 9" motors, putting two 11" motors in it will make it faster. The point some of us are trying to make is if the 9" motors weren't operating anywhere near their mechanical limits, the 11s aren't necessarily going to make the vehicle any faster, given the rest of the components stay the same.

So, in the case of this theoretical EV drag race vehicle, the 11s aren't anymore powerful than the 9s. Increasing motor size alone will not increase power. It will move the torque peak, and change the curve, but there will not be more power than the batteries put in it. If the 9s could convert more power than the chassis can utilize, then all you have added to the vehicle with the bigger motors is weight, not useable power.

For Ron (the person who actually started this thread for advice and comments) the question is whether or not his siamese 11s offer any advantage over siamese 9s. Given the same battery pack, the answer is no. It will give him more torque at lower lower rpm's, to get the car moving quicker from a start, but also adds a couple hundred pounds of weight that must be moved. Whether or not he can actually pump enough current through them to realize the theoretical benefits of the larger motor remains to be seen.

Debating whether or not a bigger motor makes more power than a smaller one, just for the sake of the debate is off topic. That should be taken to a new thread. The real question here is what size motor is too little, just enough, or too much, for the intended purpose? Or, even better, how you do make best use of the size motors you have?


----------



## DIYguy (Sep 18, 2008)

toddshotrods said:


> I think you're arguing the wrong point. Of course there is a reason for bigger, stronger, more powerful, motors. That's not the point here - if you keep the context of the thread in mind.


OK.... 

....but it was one of the points here. Also... I thought Ron was building a new car ground up? Where did the same battery pack and rest of the stuff stays the same come from? The guy was suppose to be starting with a clean slate...unlimited $..? Wasn't this all about potential? OK, anyways I'll shut up.. sorry for dragin it out


----------



## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

DIYguy said:


> OK....
> 
> ....but it was one of the points here. Also... I thought Ron was building a new car ground up? Where did the same battery pack and rest of the stuff stays the same come from? The guy was suppose to be starting with a clean slate...unlimited $..? Wasn't this all about potential? OK, anyways I'll shut up.. sorry for dragin it out


I think it's a great discussion, just a little O/T here. If you start a thread to hash it out, I'll be there! I just don't know enough to be in the center of the debate. I'd love to come instigate, er uh I mean learn, though! 

He purchased a Camaro drag car, and is in the process of transforming it to electric. He already picked, and I guess ordered, the 11" motors, so that's a done deal. He has also made the decision to run Headways to get moving which dictates how much power he will have onboard, because there's only so far you can go with them before the weight becomes excessive. The "what" is written in stone - the "how" is what's important now.

So, the real issue here is how far he can push the Warp 11s (not HV) later, with a stiffer pack - considering the rest of the vehicle. Is it even possible to realize the theoretical additional capacity of the two bigger motors in this car? How?

His goal, IIRC, is for a sub-2500lb car, that uses the advantage of a dedicated drag-race chassis to launch hard as its M.O. Given that the first pack will have some definite limitations, the siamese 11s' main advantage right now is more torque at a lower rpm. He has to figure out how to launch hard, but not run out of steam "on the big end".


----------



## DIYguy (Sep 18, 2008)

toddshotrods said:


> So, the real issue here is how far he can push the Warp 11s (not HV) later, with a stiffer pack - considering the rest of the vehicle. Is it even possible to realize the theoretical additional capacity of the two bigger motors in this car? How?


Ok, so the bat pack issue is still open then? Kokam pack. Custom controllers. Motor mods from Husted.


----------



## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

DIYguy said:


> Ok, so the bat pack issue is still open then? Kokam pack. Custom controllers. Motor mods from Husted.


Ron needs to confirm, but I think everything is really still on the table. The Headway pack was to get the car running and on the track for next season. Getting Kokam or A123 requires developing relationships with the right people, and the best way to do that is be out there going faster and faster - proactively demonstrating why they should have their product in your vehicle. Headway is the best, easily obtainable, user-friendly, step towards this.

He's going to need everything you just mentioned to reach his real goals. A super stiff pack, a more powerful controller (he has a Z2K-HV, not EHV - which probably still wouldn't be enough), and only time will tell what Netgains sends him for motors. I am curious to see if they have Jim's tricks figured out; or maybe a secret deal with him to provide "off-the-shelf" trickery? He said his motors won't be the garden variety Warp 11s...


----------



## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

*The Word from the Master of EV Drag Motors!*
_________________________________________

View in Gmail


Re: Message from Jimerico






Jim Husted <[email protected]> to Ronald Adamowicz <[email protected]>
10:02am


> Jim,
>
> Looking for your expertise on this matter. What is the
> benefit of using dual
> 11" motors compared to dual 9" motors if both vehicles are
> operating with
> the same battery pack and controller?
> Example:
>
> Dual Warp 11" with a Trans Warp 11"
> Dual Warp 9" with a Trans Warp 9"
>
> Both using battery packs 340V 65AH
> Both using Zilla2K

Hey Ron

The larger motors will have better torque per amp and assuming this to be a direct drive (DD) system the 11's would grunt things up on the start a wee better than a pair of 9's. Both motors are limited to 170(ish) volts before danger of flashover so it kind of comes down to the eff of the motors and thier torque per amp. I really don't know where the RPM's to volts are on these but I'm doing a dual 11 setup so hopefully we'll have more data to chew on (actually they'll be using a pair of Solitons 8^)

There is no free lunch though as you're going to be carrying around another 200 lbs of weight that can be detrimental to both range and track times. IMO you need to factor in the weight of the car as well as the intended goals as well as terrain (are there hills to climb?). Wayland's a good example as he's using the Impulse9 and not even full sized 9's! I do assume that he would do better with the larger 9's or better yet the 11's but that is just an assumption at this point in time. Even with better torque per amp and eff of the 11's vs the 9's he might suffer worse range/times and or net tit for tat losses at track or range, kind of that damn no free lunch thingy 8^)

> Also, some say I should use my dual 11" motors in series
> only, and some say
> use series to parallel, what is your thoughts?

I know I've heard Otmar say he likes them run in series (God I hope that's right as that's from memory)(and I'm getting old, lmao 8^) with the reason that it's easier on the controller. Series will net you better torque but a lower RPM at X voltage and parallel less torque but a higher RPM at X voltage so IMO it really will come down to the goals of the car. If using a single controller series/parallel shift works pretty well for that best of both worlds and if you have a second controller than this is mute.

Anyway, that's my take on things, hopefully it added at least a little insight on what you probably already knew. There is really so little data with apple to apple comparisons so we're still stuck in that build it and see stage of EV developement. Hell even after 6 years of this, I feel I put my balls out for the world to crush on every job, although not having total say on most jobs, I guess that adds to my pucker factor 8^o

Hope you and yours have a great hoiday season.


----------



## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Uh, pretty much the same thing we've been saying here. 

So, forgetting about EVs, electric motors, and all that jazz for a minute and dealing with the issue of racing: In racing you want to, ideally, use just a little more than enough to get the job done. How much more depends on how much reliability you need - i.e., how long does it need to last? One 1/4 mile pass, a series of passes at an event, a season of racing, a season of autocrossing, a 24-hour endurance race, years of street/race duty?

Jim is being humble and diplomatic - the real truth is a pair of his siamese 9s is pretty indestructable for drag racing purposes. Truthfully, siamese 11s are probably better suited to something like a rock-crawler where massive doses of torque are called upon repeatedly. I'm not saying they can't be effectively used in a drag car, just that you have to figure out how to get enough power into them (controller) and then how the heck you're going to put that amount of torque on the ground? As I stated before, a P/S, P/M, or F/C chassis might be up to the task; with some very sophisticated electronic control. If your pockets are that deep, I have a lot of ideas for you. 

You really have to try to wrap your head around applying the torque of whatever combination you choose to the track. That is actually challenging with powerful ICE setups, that ramp into the available torque. I'm hoping that the major manufacturers efforts to design clean-slate EVs will affect the thinking of the entire field. There seems to be a lot of concentration on making the electric motor behave like the ICE it replaces in DIY EV practice. I understand most of it is due to budget constraints, but it still seems that even when higher budget projects are considered, it's still not clean-slate EV thinking - there's always a lot of ICE methodology mixed in.

(makes megaphone with hands) {{{{It's not an ICE, it's an EV!}}}}


----------



## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

Well, my plan is to build then test, you can calculate formulas until your head spins, the proof will be in the pudding! I will have additional cells to increase pack size, and I can easily change wiring for series to parallel set-ups. We are trying to get the car complete by Febuary so I can test it at the Atco track before heading to Florida. I will test series first and see how the pack holds up, then test with the series/parallel switch and see if our times change. Its a matter of elimination. What makes us faster stays! 

This season will be Headways, that is set in stone. Next season who knows? The controller and batteries may be changed. 



toddshotrods said:


> As I stated before, a P/S, P/M, or F/C chassis might be up to the task; with some very sophisticated electronic control. If your pockets are that deep, I have a lot of ideas for you.
> 
> You really have to try to wrap your head around applying the torque of whatever combination you choose to the track.
> (makes megaphone with hands) {{{{It's not an ICE, it's an EV!}}}}


----------



## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

LithiumaniacsEVRacing said:


> Well, my plan is to build then test, you can calculate formulas until your head spins, the proof will be in the pudding! I will have additional cells to increase pack size, and I can easily change wiring for series to parallel set-ups. We are trying to get the car complete by Febuary so I can test it at the Atco track before heading to Florida. I will test series first and see how the pack holds up, then test with the series/parallel switch and see if our times change. Its a matter of elimination. What makes us faster stays!
> 
> This season will be Headways, that is set in stone. Next season who knows? The controller and batteries may be changed.


I think my post came across wrong - that wasn't directed at you (especially the megaphone bit), it was a general comment to the DIY community as a whole. It was for the lurkers, and new people, who may read this searching for information.

I think you're generally going down the right track. Sure there are things some of us would do different, but that's what makes the world go 'round right - different strokes... You have a purpose-built drag chassis, really strong motor combination, and you're planning to increase the power capacity of your pack. The only thing you _can_ do from this point is put it all together and hammer on it. Time will tell the rest.


----------



## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

We all appreciate your comments. My post was not directed at you, I was speaking to the public about our drag racing plans. I want to show people what happens with different "set-ups", its nice to post about it, but putting the power to the pavement is where its at! I hope many will watch us grow and learn from our testing. 



toddshotrods said:


> I think my post came across wrong - that wasn't directed at you (especially the megaphone bit), it was a general comment to the DIY community as a whole. It was for the lurkers, and new people, who may read this searching for information.
> 
> I think you're generally going down the right track. Sure there are things some of us would do different, but that's what makes the world go 'round right - different strokes... You have a purpose-built drag chassis, really strong motor combination, and you're planning to increase the power capacity of your pack. The only thing you _can_ do from this point is put it all together and hammer on it. Time will tell the rest.


----------



## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

toddshotrods said:


> Uh, pretty much the same thing we've been saying here.


 Yup.


> So, forgetting about EVs, electric motors, and all that jazz for a minute and dealing with the issue of racing: In racing you want to, ideally, use just a little more than enough to get the job done. How much more depends on how much reliability you need - i.e., how long does it need to last? One 1/4 mile pass, a series of passes at an event, a season of racing, a season of autocrossing, a 24-hour endurance race, years of street/race duty?


I was thinking the perfect motor would be the one that's just large enough to survive the race and then meltdown or explode as you cross the finish line, anything more is just extra weight. Of course that's an expensive racing season. 


> (makes megaphone with hands) {{{{It's not an ICE, it's an EV!}}}}


Say it!


----------



## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

Car will not pass Connecticut inspection with racing slicks on the rear and no headlights. Too much work to make it street legal, time is short! Must be track ready soon. 



toddshotrods said:


> Put some plates on that Camaro!


----------



## EV_dub (Aug 30, 2010)

Hi, very interesting thread here!

Isn't keeping the motor/motors within the high torque band the important factor in maximising the output from them?

Series Motors are designed for high starting Torque: Low Speed = high torque. 

Heavy loads= low speed, armature current high and field is strong.

I understand using parallel and series switching aids high torque to high hp. 
Although as speed increases air resistance is stronger requiring higher torque to overcome this.

What about using a gearbox to keep the motor within high torque band whilst increasing output speed?

The Blackcurrent 3 electric beetle (1/4 mile in 9.5 secs)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tHjq5VY6O68&feature=related

The blackcurrent uses x2 warp 9 motors connected to a 2 speed solenoid operated gearbox (or transmission as you guys call it 

Ok adding a gearbox would increase weight, although perhaps you wouldn't require so many cells as a lower voltage (<RPM) system could achieve the same velocity.

Another question I ask is: Can these motors actually efficiently transform 2000amps into torque. When a motor is working near saturation (armature reaction) the overall effect is a weakening of the field. 
Of course the brushes can be advanced to help this, but aren't motors limited by the amount of magnetising flux ability? Bigger motors = more Flux density?

I can't find any charts/info on these motors working at such high currents. That would be useful.


----------

