# Making a school bus electric?



## Ivansgarage (Sep 3, 2011)

Cost? School Bus?

That would depend on what color it is?


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## YoDannoe (Aug 19, 2017)

The project is in research mode. The bus has not been purchased yet, and it will not be used as a school bus but rather converted into a motorhome.


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

I assume that we're talking about a full-sized school bus, which is a medium-duty truck chassis with a 30 to 40 foot long body on it.

Fitted out as a motorhome, this is likely a ten-ton vehicle. So, with that mass and the huge frontal area, it seems reasonable to me to assume that it will take about five times as much energy to move this vehicle as it would take to move a compact car the same distance.

So... 120 mile range will require five times the battery capacity of a typical battery-electric car with that range. The Nissan Leaf has somewhat less range than 120 miles with its 30 kW-h battery... so, perhaps 180 kW-h, or about double what a Tesla Model S has. You could use six complete Leaf batteries. 

A small school bus is on a commercial van chassis, and could be substantially smaller, with correspondingly lower energy needs.


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## YoDannoe (Aug 19, 2017)

Thanks. I've heard of KWhours price dropping to $2 or less so a battery pack for a bus could be in the $36,000 or less range. That seems ok.

Now what type of motor would the bus require?


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

YoDannoe said:


> Now what type of motor would the bus require?


Huge! 

But seriously, accelerating all that mass at an acceptable rate requires a lot of peak power. My motorhome is on the Ford F53 chassis, the only chassis available in North America for Class A motorhomes with a gasoline engine, and comparable in size and weight to a school bus - it has (like all current and recent F53) a 365 hp V10 engine, and while it performs well, it's not quick by car standards.

Keeping that big box moving through the air at highway speed requires a lot a continuous power... in my experience, about four times what my van takes, so about six times what a typical EV car takes. A typical electric car motor won't do the job.

Climbing grades while maintaining highway speed, and perhaps accelerating to pass slower trucks, takes at least half of my engine's 365 hp, so it looks to me like a continuous rating of over 150 hp or 120 kW would be suitable.... and a higher peak power is needed.

If you want to use a single motor (to work with the stock bus axle), then a motor from the rear of a Telsa, or some industrial motor, seems likely. None of the common motors sold for DIY conversions are big enough. There are various electric trucks and buses which have been made in limited production, and the motors from them might be usable. There are some Siemens motors made for Azure Dynamics which are still around; the largest of them might be adequate if run at the motor's maximum voltage, but that's only a guess.


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

*Bus selection considerations*

By far the easiest way to arrive at a large EV motorhome would be to start with a motorhome, not a bus; however, a cheap motorhome may have body issues that you would rather not deal with.

One difference between typical Class A motorhomes and the classic school bus configuration (called a "conventional" or "Type C") is that in the motorhomes the driver usually sits over the front wheels (cab-over-engine, with the engine under a hump between the driver and passenger seats), while the buses usually have a conventional hood with the driver behind the front wheels. The cab-over-engine layout provides more interior space for the same overall length, while the conventional layout provides easier engine access.

For an electric conversion, "engine" access seems like a non-issue, so cab-over-engine has an advantage... although the ride for the driver might not be quite as nice. School buses are available in a "flat front" configuration (which they often call a "transit" style or "Type D"), which is either cab-over-engine or rear-engined. The buses do that so the driver can see kids crossing in front of the bus, but it might also be the better choice for a motorhome. Some flat-front school buses have a rear engine (like an intercity coach, such as those run by Greyhound), but those are likely to be more expensive. And a final note - the front passenger seat setup might not be what you want in a flat-front bus (which normally doesn't have a seat beside the driver - just a entrance door and stair).

Some school buses have storage compartments underneath, which would be useful in a motorhome and could potentially house EV components. Even if there are no compartments, they can be added - all of these things have a very high floor so there's lots of room underneath... all of which you'll probably use between batteries, RV equipment, and storage.

Also - and this is unrelated to EV conversion - check the headroom on any school bus being considered. Kids are short, so ceiling height in some of them may not be comfortable.


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## nucleus (May 18, 2012)

A tesla setup could work, but you will probably need at least 3 Tesla battery packs and beefed up cooling capacity to deal with long uphill grades.


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## moben44146 (Sep 30, 2020)

I'm looking to do something similar.
28ft Blue-bird motor home and ev conversion. The reason I want to use a bus is the structural supports throughout the sides of the bus for my workout equipment, muscle up bars, pegboards, grip trainers, etc.

I plan to keep the build to the lightest material possible.

My question is: If I were to buy 2 front end collision Model X performance editions, from one of the auction sites. 
My math says those rear axles will be powerful enough to replace the stock diesel. 

The question is it possible to mount those motors onto the bus? What garage would have that capacity?

Any word on 4680 battery sales, or Chinese knock-offs?


brian_ said:


> *Bus selection considerations*
> 
> By far the easiest way to arrive at a large EV motorhome would be to start with a motorhome, not a bus; however, a cheap motorhome may have body issues that you would rather not deal with.
> 
> ...


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## floydr (Jun 21, 2021)

There are electric school buses Not sure if any have hit the surplus market yet.





Electric School Buses


Blue Bird offers a complete line of Type A, C and D school buses in a variety of options and configurations. Since 1927, Blue Bird Corporation has continued to set industry standards with its innovative design and manufacturing capabilities. Additionally, Blue Bird provides comprehensive...




www.blue-bird.com




https://www.blue-bird.com/images/brochures/SB-VIS-EV-0920.pdf full sized school bus specs








All-Electric School Bus Solutions | Cummins Inc.


Cummins offers the PowerDrive™ 7000 EV to rapidly enable school bus manufacturers to quickly create electric school bus solutions. The PowerDrive vehicle developers kit and support program offers OEMs a robust framework to quickly create all-electric school buses.




www.cummins.com












BYD to Revolutionize Electric School Buses - BYD USA


LOS ANGELES, CALIF. (6/1/2021) – BYD (“Build Your Dreams”), the world leader in electric vehicles, is introducing a battery-electric Type D school bus with unparalleled safety features and performance, wrapped in a sleek design that will have students wanting to step onboard. With length options...




en.byd.com





Later floyd


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

moben44146 said:


> My question is: If I were to buy 2 front end collision Model X performance editions, from one of the auction sites.
> My math says those rear axles will be powerful enough to replace the stock diesel.


Although I mentioned Tesla motors when this discussion was active four years ago, Tesla Model S induction motors have one major problem: they can't take sustained high power without overheating. They can produce lots of peak power, but keeping the rolling at highway speed, especially up a grade, might be a problem.

Another issue is that Tesla motors are not easily separated from the transaxle (gearbox and differential), although some aftermarket suppliers are now making housings to make that possible.



moben44146 said:


> The question is it possible to mount those motors onto the bus? What garage would have that capacity?


How would you want salvaged EV motors (such as from Tesla... but any of them) to connect to the rear axle? 

Tesla built custom axle housings and gearboxes to mount Model 3 motors onto a heavy truck axle for the Semi prototypes (who knows what they'll use if they ever actually put it in production), which is a somewhat common approach for heavy commercial vehicle propulsion, e.g.:
"e-Axle" products at Dana Electrified​Meritor 12Xe ePowertrain (from Meritor ePowertrains)​Allison eGen Power​
Some of these (including the Tesla Semi) use one motor per wheel, mounted either out at the ends of the axle (as in buses) or near the middle of the axle (to fit with a typical truck - or school bus - frame and suspension).

The alternative is to mount a motor to the frame, and use a normal drive shaft. There's no need for the motor to sit where the engine did - it could be as close to the axle as the closest hanger for a multi-part shaft.


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## moben44146 (Sep 30, 2020)

brian_ said:


> Although I mentioned Tesla motors when this discussion was active four years ago, Tesla Model S induction motors have one major problem: they can't take sustained high power without overheating. They can produce lots of peak power, but keeping the rolling at highway speed, especially up a grade, might be a problem.
> 
> Another issue is that Tesla motors are not easily separated from the transaxle (gearbox and differential), although some aftermarket suppliers are now making housings to make that possible.
> 
> ...


I thought the Model X performance addition had the most powerful motor they produce so far, with its towing capacity. 

Does the Model 3 have that same rear axle power for towing?

My original thought was to buy at least 2 salvaged vehicles and place the motor a motor gearbox system directly in line with the tire. 

Is there a more efficient method?

I'm budgeting 200k for this build. 32-48k to make it a house. Planning to cut up salvaged siding for all interior walls, sheep's wool, and salvaged phone books for most of the insulation. Get as much as possible off of craigslist free, use a family shop or military to work on it, and use my veterans status to bring down any other price possible. 

That leaves 150k for the EV conversion. The same price as the 300mile Tesla Semi is supposed to be.

Not planning to start any build till next March, still deployed...

I built another discussion post.

Trying to figure out the right way to do this, as efficiently as possible. 

EV with plenty of solar possibly additional charging from wind and/or water. Going from one Spartan, Savage, or Crossfit event to the next, doing medical support. Spending two weeks at a location for a charge, living on national parks sounds like the highest step for a great way to live.

I don't know enough about this so, please any aid. I'll be reading those links you added tomorrow or Monday. 

Are there any shops I could speak to, that use the axle to tire method?

I can do most of the construction and welding for the motor home piece. I've never done electrical work.


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

moben44146 said:


> I thought the Model X performance addition had the most powerful motor they produce so far, with its towing capacity.


Of the original series of Tesla induction motors (which are being discontinued), yes... but the difference is largely the inverter and its programming (not the motor itself), and peak power is irrelevant anyway. It is what the motor can handle for an extended period which matters with this heavy vehicle.



moben44146 said:


> Does the Model 3 have that same rear axle power for towing?


The Model 3 motors (and the motors now in other models, derived from this one) are entirely new designs. The rated peak power of any single Model 3 motor is much lower than the old large Model S/X rear induction motor, but the continuous power is probably comparable. The Model 3 rear motor is a permanent magnet design, which doesn't have the rotor cooling problems of an induction motor.

The school bus, outfitted as an RV, will be much heavier than a Model X with the maximum allowed trailer.



moben44146 said:


> My original thought was to buy at least 2 salvaged vehicles and place the motor a motor gearbox system directly in line with the tire.
> ...
> Are there any shops I could speak to, that use the axle to tire method?


That is the approach taken by some of the commercially available "e-axles" that I link to; did you look at those? No one routinely does this as a custom service.



moben44146 said:


> That leaves 150k for the EV conversion. The same price as the 300mile Tesla Semi is supposed to be.


The price of any unreleased Tesla model is entirely fiction, and the promised price of one that should have been built two years ago but is still nowhere in sight is particularly suspect. Real electric heavy duty trucks are much more expensive than that.


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## cricketo (Oct 4, 2018)

brian_ said:


> The price of any unreleased Tesla model is entirely fiction, and the promised price of one that should have been built two years ago but is still nowhere in sight is particularly suspect. Real electric heavy duty trucks are much more expensive than that.


I agree with this sentiment. Tesla, while performing great with their S through Y models, is acting very suspiciously with the Semi and Cybertruck. It is very different from their new Roadster, which has a total of two and a half buyers. Semi and pickup truck are intended for massive lucrative market segments which anyone would capture as soon as possible if they could.


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## Electric Land Cruiser (Dec 30, 2020)

moben44146 said:


> I thought the Model X performance addition had the most powerful motor they produce so far, with its towing capacity.
> 
> Does the Model 3 have that same rear axle power for towing?
> 
> ...


I think it's a cool idea to drive around and live in a green EV bus like this. Especially with solar or wind or other green power to charge it.

There is another member here converting a coach style tour bus to EV. I forget who or other details but perhaps search and see what he's up to.

School buses are overly heavy compared to RVs or coach buses but if it's what you want then it's at least super strong and stout to hold the weight.

I would look into an electric propulsion system from an old city bus or something to adapt. Tesla stuff is for a 5000lbs car, a typical scool bus is around 33,000lbs. Oof.


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## Spyderrock (Oct 26, 2018)

For what its worth other than a trolly car. Disney ride or something like that the first real electric vehicle was an electric Bluebird full size school bus. That was 1982 in Mesa Verde National Park. They used electric bluebirds for several reasons. Among those: braking over the extreme grades, strudy chassis over the extreme roads, and they didn't stink up the place with diesel.


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## remy_martian (Feb 4, 2019)

Did they use the liquid sodium batteries some electric school buses use or was it good old fashioned lead acid?


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## Spyderrock (Oct 26, 2018)

Honestly I really don't know. The runs were short (like maybe 3 or 4 miles at most as I remember) but very steep, narrow, and twisty. I was seated up front. The driver was pretty proud of his bus.
Gets me wondering if they still use the same buses.


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## xmor (Sep 18, 2021)

brian_ said:


> Huge!
> But seriously, accelerating all that mass at an acceptable rate requires a lot of peak power. My motorhome is on the Ford F53 chassis, the only chassis available in North America for Class A motorhomes with a gasoline engine, and comparable in size and weight to a school bus - it has (like all current and recent F53) a 365 hp V10 engine, and while it performs well, it's not quick by car standards.


I've seen a couple electric motors pushing 100Hp so I'm not sure that power is the issue here, but i could be doing the math wrong in my head, i feel like it'd be more the amount of wattage you'd need to carry (obviously could be wrong)


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## Jbear (Apr 14, 2019)

In my lifetime I have converted 5 school busses to rv's, two of which were mine with one being pure high performance diesel and as much as I wanted a full electric bus building it from scratch was over the top cost prohibitive and everyone just sit of told me it can't be done and shook their heads. So the second bus ended up being a "makeshift" hybrid in as much as I had an AC motor inline on the driveshaft, but no one had a controller that would integrate with the bus so it was me and a hand operated controller assisting the diesel and we traveled the world in them. It was novel, it was not a pain in the ass because I always had the diesel there in case the system went south. My last one was a client who wanted to convert a bus to electric and I told him it can be done but outside of the bus manufacturers we were in unkempt territory. I talked him into going with a bluebird ordered straight from the factory with no interior what so ever and highway gearing. We effectively doubled the battery and it works great but only about 170 miles per charge because the manufacturer designs and builds the bus for low speed stop and go, not long range and let me tell you the hills are a motherf***er on batteries and let me tell you, when you have an eye on charge remaining, you notice long uphill grades. My advice, do a hybrid it's much less expensive, a lot less guess work and self deception in regatta to "yeah, that should work" and somewhere out there is a company (person) that will custom build you a controller interface.



https://www.blue-bird.com/images/brochures/SB-VIS-EV-0920.pdf


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

xmor said:


> I've seen a couple electric motors pushing 100Hp so I'm not sure that power is the issue here, but i could be doing the math wrong in my head, i feel like it'd be more the amount of wattage you'd need to carry (obviously could be wrong)


Power is certainly an issue, and 100 horsepower isn't much for a bus. Fortunately, there are much more powerful motors than that - essentially every production EV has at least 100 HP (75 kW) of motor output. It's not technically difficult to install a powerful enough motor, but the builder does need to choose enough power, and it is expensive.

What do you mean by "the amount of wattage you'd need to carry"? A watt is a unit of power measurement, but if you mean energy in a battery (which would be watt-hours, or kilowatt-hours), then that (battery size and weight) is a concern, as we have discussed.


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

Jbear said:


> My last one was a client who wanted to convert a bus to electric and I told him it can be done but outside of the bus manufacturers we were in unkempt territory. I talked him into going with a bluebird ordered straight from the factory with no interior what so ever and highway gearing. We effectively doubled the battery and it works great but only about 170 miles per charge because the manufacturer designs and builds the bus for low speed stop and go, not long range...
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.blue-bird.com/images/brochures/SB-VIS-EV-0920.pdf


Doubling a 155 kWh battery (to 310 kWh) for 170 mile range implies 1.8 kWh/mile or 1.1 kWh/km... ouch! It's not surprising: that's four times the consumption a large car, but my Class A motorhome (similar to the bus but a bit wider and substantially lighter) uses about four times as much fuel as our minivan, and that seems reasonable.

The brochure lists a TM4® SUMO™ motor as part of the Cummins PowerDrive 7000 "propulsion system". The TM4 motors are now part of the Dana Electrified product line, and come in Light Duty, Medium Duty, and Heavy Duty versions; the bus is a Class 7 vehicle so it should have an HD (their interesting 9-phase design).... that's a 340 kg motor. Perhaps they skimped and went MD... only 6 phases and 180 kg or 225 kg. From the specs in the ElectricDreamBus site linked to the Cummins website, it looks like they're using the SUMO MD HV3000-6P, which is the larger "L2" variant of the MD.

As we've been saying... *big *motor, although these Sumo's are bigger than a motor using an additional reduction gearbox would be.


A note on the ElectricDreamBus site information: the FAQ includes an item which says 


> Both our Type C and Type D buses use 155 kWh Li-ION NMC/G cell batteries (lithium, nickel, manganese, cobalt, and gel).


This is likely untrue, as lithium-ion batteries don't use gelled electrolyte, and the term NMC/G normally means nickel-manganese-cobalt cathode and graphic anode. "NMC/G" is normally just called NMC since lithium-ion cells normally use graphite anodes, but XALT seems to like the "/G" terminology.


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

Spyderrock said:


> Honestly I really don't know. The runs were short (like maybe 3 or 4 miles at most as I remember) but very steep, narrow, and twisty. I was seated up front. The driver was pretty proud of his bus.
> Gets me wondering if they still use the same buses.


Not likely - most battery-electric commercial vehicles (which are mostly trucks) seem to be scrapped before their diesel-engine equivalents would be, as batteries and electronics become obsolete and unrepairable. It would be remarkable if anyone had anything from four decades ago still in service.


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## remy_martian (Feb 4, 2019)

The motor aft of the rear axle is an interesting setup.

It says batteries are between the frame rails. That must mean the "frunk" has nothing in it, so maybe a chance to double the range by stuffing it with bags of money (batteries)? Or an ICE range extender to make it into a HEV (engine/generator combo)


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## remy_martian (Feb 4, 2019)

brian_ said:


> The brochure lists a TM4® SUMO™ motor as part of the Cummins PowerDrive 7000 "propulsion system". The TM4 motors are now part of the Dana Electrified product line, and come in Light Duty, Medium Duty, and Heavy Duty versions; the bus is a Class 7 vehicle so it should have an HD (their interesting 9-phase design).... that's a 340 kg motor. Perhaps they skimped and went MD... only 6 phases and 180 kg or 225 kg. From the specs in the ElectricDreamBus site linked to the Cummins website, it looks like they're using the SUMO MD HV3000-6P, which is the larger "L2" variant of the MD.
> 
> As we've been saying... *big *motor, although these Sumo's are bigger than a motor using an additional reduction gearbox would be.


Looks to me like they're using Borg Warner HVH cartridges (250 and 410) and the N*3 phases are independent drives for each of n cartridges/resolvers. Rotating the cartridges would reduce cogging torque. 

The length can be explained by its planetary gearset and likely a Dexron/(water)Glycol heat exchanger and Dexron pump in that case. 

It's a nice solution for hooking straight to an existing driveshaft and only providing DC power and (water)glycol-only cooling system.

The price list would be interesting. I'm going to guess 50-60k for a "6-phase" setup. The two HVH250 cartridges are about $9k. The 410's would push the solution north of $100k, since they're over $20k, iirc.


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## Jbear (Apr 14, 2019)

OK, I generally just watch conversations and learn from them and occasionally put my worthless 2 cents in. But this topic about bus/motor home conversions is coming up more and more often as we transition more and more from ICE to electric. I have been performing conversions for going on 20 years and I operate a small insignificant business in Alaska, Juneau to be precise, where I experiment with vehicles converting them to electric, some are worthwhile, some turn out to be merely a learning experience. I generally raise funds for the conversions via a gofundme and then I raffle off the end product utilizing random.org I happen to have a bus that is stripped of interior as I was going to turn it into a mobile internet radio DJ booth but have stalled on that project. I think with all of the knowledge on this site we could come up with a consensus about how to perform a conversion/motors /batteries / controllers etc. and make it work. Maybe instead of buying materials we have access to spares laying around etc. I would start a gofundme and donate my bus and time to do this and raffle it off when done. Thoughts everyone?


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

remy_martian said:


> The motor aft of the rear axle is an interesting setup.


I hadn't even noticed that, in this photo. 








I assume that they did it to free up more space for the battery pack.



remy_martian said:


> It says batteries are between the frame rails. That must mean the "frunk" has nothing in it, so maybe a chance to double the range by stuffing it with bags of money (batteries)? Or an ICE range extender to make it into a HEV (engine/generator combo)


Yes, you can see the bottom of the battery pack - it's the largest thing visible between the axles in that photo. The space under the front hood in EV-converted commercial vehicles is usually surprisingly full of the various supporting systems (motor controller, charger, DC-to-DC, etc). In this case, with the rear motor, the inverter will in the rear, not the front.


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## remy_martian (Feb 4, 2019)

Look at the photo's wiring. The inverter is in that black box on the left


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

remy_martian said:


> Looks to me like they're using Borg Warner HVH cartridges (250 and 410) and the N*3 phases are independent drives for each of n cartridges/resolvers. Rotating the cartridges would reduce cogging torque.
> 
> The length can be explained by its planetary gearset and likely a Dexron/(water)Glycol heat exchanger and Dexron pump in that case.
> 
> ...


No, TM4 was an entirely independent company (from Dana or BorgWarner or anyone else other than their owner, Hydro-Québec). Their high-torque Sumo motors are outer-rotor radial flux single-core designs. Dana TM4 is a joint venture - the motors are still the original TM4 design. HVH motors and cores are from BorgWarner, a competitor to Dana. There is no planetary gearset in the Sumo motors, which are high-torque low-speed designs. The six or nine phases are all separately driven from one inverter unit, matched to the motor.

The dimensions of the Sumo motors are given in the web pages that I linked, or the spec sheets linked to them. They're much larger in diameter than the HVH250 motors, shorter than a dual-core HVH motor, and even heavier than a dual-core HVH250.

I have no idea what any of the TM4 motors cost, but the Sumo units must be expensive. Almost nothing could be as expensive as a dual-core HVH motor with Cascadia inverters.


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

remy_martian said:


> Look at the photo's wiring. The inverter is in that black box on the left


I assume so, yes. The Sumo inverters are huge, so the box is about right in length and width.


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## piotrsko (Dec 9, 2007)

Out in the California desert near 29 palms used to be a bus scrapyard where they had pretty much one of everything, including electric. There's where your parts are, and they are bus sized if the place still exists, but there should be others. Here in Reno, we got rid of 6 or so lectrics and they had to go somewhere. If it has corrugations on the side, it is built to schoolbus standards which includes surviving dropping it on its roof and not crushing which makes it perhaps 10% heavier. Most of the stuff I drove had 200-250 hp diesels and you go slow up hill even empty. Most roundtops are built with a 6ft clearance down the center and they don't make smaller ones for gradeschools OSFA


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## moben44146 (Sep 30, 2020)

brian_ said:


> Although I mentioned Tesla motors when this discussion was active four years ago, Tesla Model S induction motors have one major problem: they can't take sustained high power without overheating. They can produce lots of peak power, but keeping the rolling at highway speed, especially up a grade, might be a problem.
> 
> Another issue is that Tesla motors are not easily separated from the transaxle (gearbox and differential), although some aftermarket suppliers are now making housings to make that possible.
> 
> ...


Would you trust any of these motors with your vehicle? 





Commercial Truck Electric Axle Motors-Commercial Truck Electric Axle Motors Manufacturers, Suppliers and Exporters on Alibaba.comAC Motors


Commercial Truck Electric Axle Motors Manufacturers & Commercial Truck Electric Axle Motors Suppliers Directory - Find a Commercial Truck Electric Axle Motors Manufacturer and Supplier. Choose Quality Commercial Truck Electric Axle Motors Manufacturers, Suppliers, Exporters at Alibaba.com.AC Motors




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Also thank you for everything so far.
I'm on my vacation currently and finally found some contacts that could shed light on the items you had mentioned.

I understand I'm probably a few years ahead of this project still. Which means I'll have to buy a running bus and do the home conversion portion first.


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## Jbear (Apr 14, 2019)

Moben, I have reached out to these manufacturers as well and received the same story as you. I have converted 5 buses one for me that was turbo diesel with an ax motor in line and a cobbled together controller/activation, the last one was a true manufactured electric bus where I doubled to battery capacity for the owner. I offered online here to do a project using the knowledge base on here and a crowdfund for the parts and to raffle it off because people like you and I are in a sense operating in a vacuum of best guesses on a project like this, but all I got was crickets.
What I have found is especially in the Chinese markets the translations for the products are a bit off and they do not really understand what Americans are really trying to do as we do not usually a build small stuff. So I would be wary of purchasing off of Alibaba or the like.
Your best bet, both for economy of funding and for ease of build/repair, build in the traditional motor > transmission > driveshaft > differential manner. Use a manual transmission as most automatics in buses will not be made to effectively communicate to the transmission and it will be a pain.


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

moben44146 said:


> Would you trust any of these motors with your vehicle?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


The Wuling units listed generally look very light-duty - small pickup truck size or smaller, perhaps, and typically very low power - but real information is lacking. If they were sized appropriately they would probably be fine, but I wouldn't trust the source.

This is from one of the listings ("Wuling Motors LCVA4O40 electric rear axle "), and is obviously a heavy truck axle (even heavier than you would want)... but it's also just a computer rendering.


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## moben44146 (Sep 30, 2020)

Jbear said:


> Moben, I have reached out to these manufacturers as well and received the same story as you. I have converted 5 buses one for me that was turbo diesel with an ax motor in line and a cobbled together controller/activation, the last one was a true manufactured electric bus where I doubled to battery capacity for the owner. I offered online here to do a project using the knowledge base on here and a crowdfund for the parts and to raffle it off because people like you and I are in a sense operating in a vacuum of best guesses on a project like this, but all I got was crickets.
> What I have found is especially in the Chinese markets the translations for the products are a bit off and they do not really understand what Americans are really trying to do as we do not usually a build small stuff. So I would be wary of purchasing off of Alibaba or the like.
> Your best bet, both for economy of funding and for ease of build/repair, build in the traditional motor > transmission > driveshaft > differential manner. Use a manual transmission as most automatics in buses will not be made to effectively communicate to the transmission and it will be a pain.


Thank you, plus side I have yet to buy the bus and I am understanding manual transmission is the way to go for this project. 
I have spoken with a build site, they were suggesting that method with two motors. I sent a few questions and haven't heard back.
I'm considering building the home portion first and waiting till this sector starts heating up.
The other day Ford released a crate motor.
It would be great if those companies didn't note their motors will be “bolt-in conversion” technology. Happily invest buy purchasing and showing proof of function for that equipment...


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## moben44146 (Sep 30, 2020)

brian_ said:


> The Wuling units listed generally look very light-duty - small pickup truck size or smaller, perhaps, and typically very low power - but real information is lacking. If they were sized appropriately they would probably be fine, but I wouldn't trust the source.
> 
> This is from one of the listings ("Wuling Motors LCVA4O40 electric rear axle "), and is obviously a heavy truck axle (even heavier than you would want)... but it's also just a computer rendering.


Looks awesome but reminds me of Nikola for some reason...


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## remy_martian (Feb 4, 2019)

Contact Wrightspeed (and report back here) and see if they'll sell just their motorized axle...

My contact there left the company or I would do it.


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

remy_martian said:


> Contact Wrightspeed (and report back here) and see if they'll sell just their motorized axle...
> 
> My contact there left the company or I would do it.


I didn't realize that Wrightspeed was still going.

It appears that Wrightspeed has changed their drive hardware, but it's hard to tell because in the past they didn't show it clearly. The Geared Traction Drive that they have shown for years is a complex four-speed drive unit, and the provided images don't even really show whether it is mounted on a beam axle to the frame. The Route vehicle configurations now show a two-motor drive axle, likely the same as shown in more detail in a photo on their home page:








While the Route page calls this unit the Geared Traction Drive, that name seems to be used for two different generations of hardware. Here's the original GTD, from a 2014 article:









Of course a small vehicle manufacturer wouldn't likely build this sort of component when it is commercially available. In this case, in 2017 Wrightspeed made a deal in which "Wrightspeed’s GTD (Geared Traction Drive) pairs with a custom axle from AxleTech International" (although the motor and gearbox unit looks nothing like the original GTD); this is the current unit.

The net result is that this unit would probably need to come from Wrightspeed rather than AxleTech (especially since AxleTech is now part of Meritor), and while it couldn't hurt to ask the likelihood of being able get one seems small to me. It would be well-suited to a large school bus or Class A motorhome, except that it is set up for air brakes.

*AxleTech's **axle product line* includes two electric axles, neither of which is the Wrightspeed unit, so I doubt it is available to anyone other than through Wrightspeed. Of the AxleTech products, one (EPS785) is far too heavy for a bus, and the other (5000 Series EISAS™) is an independent suspension steer axle. They also have (in the Electric Vehicle Systems product category) a motor and gear unit (AFE series) which installs into their regular axle housings, but again only axles which are too heavy for a school bus. AxleTech doesn't sell directly to individual customers, and I doubt any of this could be found from their aftermarket parts source even if it were suitable.


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## remy_martian (Feb 4, 2019)

Back when I toured their prototyping shop, "Suzy" was being assembled. Their motors were astounding...250hp, 40lb, two on the rear axle mounted transversely. Looks like it's changed.

Footage of Suzy (it was an Isuzu), with range extender gas turbine engine, here: 






A school bus that can't do donuts like that on Salt Flats ain't worth doin' 😂

Not sure what Ian Wright (founder of Tesla, Wrightspeed, and creator of the Ariel Atom, and its X1 EV variant) is up to these days.

X1 & Ian (some good performance and vehicle parameter info in this one):


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## MattsAwesomeStuff (Aug 10, 2017)

remy_martian said:


> Not sure what Ian Wright (founder of Tesla, Wrightspeed, and creator of the Ariel Atom, and its X1 EV variant) is up to these days.


Hell of a resumé. And what a charming and pleasant guy.


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## moben44146 (Sep 30, 2020)

remy_martian said:


> Back when I toured their prototyping shop, "Suzy" was being assembled. Their motors were astounding...250hp, 40lb, two on the rear axle mounted transversely. Looks like it's changed.
> 
> Footage of Suzy (it was an Isuzu), with range extender gas turbine engine, here:
> 
> ...


I've tried contacting Wrightspeed by email and call using every line in the directory. All of them go directly to a voicemail option. 
May have called too early for California though.
I did leave multiple messages.
Also, started researching 27-30 foot BlueBirds with manual transmissions today.
I understand there are Electric BlueBirds out there, they are designed and noted for school systems with a lot of stop-and-go driving.
Don't really see the use of doing doughnuts with one’s home...


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## Jbear (Apr 14, 2019)

When picking a motor (s) do the math! You will be pulling a lot of amps with that much weight and there are some long upholds! When we drove to Cuenca Ecuador it was a tough climb with a very healthy twin turbo diesel AND the electric assist, we still had to pull over and cool down and refcharge theree times. So full electric... And you will realize how much flat road is really a grade domestically.


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## remy_martian (Feb 4, 2019)

^^ Because nobody else in the RV park or at Bonneville Race Week can...


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

remy_martian said:


> Not sure what Ian Wright (founder of Tesla, Wrightspeed, and creator of the Ariel Atom, and its X1 EV variant) is up to these days.


Wright's company built the X1, but he is not the creator of the Ariel Atom. From Wikipedia:


> The Atom began as a student project by Coventry University transport design student Niki Smart. Known then as the LSC (Lightweight Sports Car), it was developed at the university in 1996 with input and funding from various automotive industry members, including British Steel and TWR. Ariel Motor Company boss Simon Saunders was a senior lecturer whose responsibility for the project was primarily as financial manager and design critic for Smart, whom he described as "The best all-round design student I've ever seen." The car was first shown publicly at the British International Motor Show at the NEC in Birmingham in October 1996.[4]


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ariel_Atom#cite_note-4


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

moben44146 said:


> I understand there are Electric BlueBirds out there, they are designed and noted for school systems with a lot of stop-and-go driving.


There are battery-electric school buses from many manufacturers now, including both the traditional companies and new companies specializing in EVs. Few private individuals could afford one (they're usually subsidized when a school operator buys them), but they provide design examples.


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## remy_martian (Feb 4, 2019)

brian_ said:


> Wright's company built the X1, but he is not the creator of the Ariel Atom. From Wikipedia:
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ariel_Atom#cite_note-4


I stand corrected. Thanks

& thanks for making me go down the rabbit hole; more on the X1 here (a Wikipedia reference that includes specs):









2006 Wrightspeed X1







www.topspeed.com


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## moben44146 (Sep 30, 2020)

Jbear said:


> Moben, I have reached out to these manufacturers as well and received the same story as you. I have converted 5 buses one for me that was turbo diesel with an ax motor in line and a cobbled together controller/activation, the last one was a true manufactured electric bus where I doubled to battery capacity for the owner. I offered online here to do a project using the knowledge base on here and a crowdfund for the parts and to raffle it off because people like you and I are in a sense operating in a vacuum of best guesses on a project like this, but all I got was crickets.
> What I have found is especially in the Chinese markets the translations for the products are a bit off and they do not really understand what Americans are really trying to do as we do not usually a build small stuff. So I would be wary of purchasing off of Alibaba or the like.
> Your best bet, both for economy of funding and for ease of build/repair, build in the traditional motor > transmission > driveshaft > differential manner. Use a manual transmission as most automatics in buses will not be made to effectively communicate to the transmission and it will be a pain.


I’ve been learning how to do battery calculations recently. I've been googling this question but can't seem to find the answer I understand.
The builder I've been communicating with is planning to do 
2 warp 11 motors > transmission (they suggest I buy a bus that's design meets my specs and I buy a manual transmission to replace the automatic since most buses after 1990 are automatic.) driveshaft, differential method.

My questions are what happens to the battery pack requirements when doubling the motors? Does the Voltage in the equations double? 
When using two motors I'm guessing it would need an adaptor of some kind before attaching the transmission?

This next part is a joke. Why hasn't anyone patented a plug and play axle system, where you add the motors you're using to a modular transfer case gearbox mechanism to straight bars that go into the wheels, have multiple sizes for different size vehicle types...


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

moben44146 said:


> My questions are what happens to the battery pack requirements when doubling the motors? Does the Voltage in the equations double?


No, unless you connect the motors in series with other. If doubling motors doubles your peak power consumption, your battery needs twice as much power capability (so twice as much current if the same voltage).



moben44146 said:


> When using two motors I'm guessing it would need an adaptor of some kind before attaching the transmission?


Connecting any motor to a transmission means the need for an adapter to connect the housings (cases) and a coupler to connect the shafts. Connecting two motors to a transmission obviously means more of the same. The most common way to do this is to use one motor which has a shaft that sticks out at both ends (what NetGain calls a "double ended shaft"), couple it to the transmission, and couple the second motor to the extra shaft end of the first one. Then of course you need an adapter to connect the case of the first motor to the transmission, and another adapter to connect the motor cases to each other. 

You might be able to find this whole setup in a museum of early EV drag racing conversions somewhere. 



moben44146 said:


> This next part is a joke. Why hasn't anyone patented a plug and play axle system, where you add the motors you're using to a modular transfer case gearbox mechanism to straight bars that go into the wheels, have multiple sizes for different size vehicle types...


You're joking, but that's essentially what AxleTech is doing with their AFE Series, which I mentioned earlier. The motor and gearbox unit is the eCarrier, and it goes in one of their axle assemblies instead of a conventional pinion carrier for a propeller shaft from a transmission.


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## JefferyWillis (11 mo ago)

Jbear said:


> When picking a motor (s) do the math! You will be pulling a lot of amps with that much weight and there are some long upholds! When we drove to Cuenca Ecuador it was a tough climb with a very healthy twin turbo diesel AND the electric assist, we still had to pull over and cool down and refcharge theree times. So full electric... And you will realize how much flat road is really a grade domestically.


Of course there is a certain disadvantage, but first, is there often a need for a school bus to make a sharp rise fully loaded with people? Secondly, I think that if you want this problem can be solved if there is still such a need.What's important is the concept of the idea itself, you can look here to find free essay samples and calculations to prove the topic and its benefits I think that switching to electric school buses would rid school parking lots of the smell of exhaust fumes, make transportation quieter and more pleasant for children, and of course save a lot of money and points for the environment.)


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## Jbear (Apr 14, 2019)

I don't think the thread was about electric school busses being used for taking children to/from school ( although I have not sent back and refreshed myself with the whole thread) my part in the thread was converting electric busses in a private usage as a motor home. With that being said though, there are plenty of mountainous states with extreme elevation changes. I also am in favor of all electric, I "think" the thread was on cost to convert, lack of straight forward affordable and readily available components.


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## Pixelcodex (4 mo ago)

remy_martian said:


> Back when I toured their prototyping shop, "Suzy" was being assembled. Their motors were astounding...250hp, 40lb, two on the rear axle mounted transversely. Looks like it's changed.
> 
> Footage of Suzy (it was an Isuzu), with range extender gas turbine engine, here:
> 
> ...


I am new to the forum and have been randomly browsing posts of interest and found this. I had never seen any footage (or knew of the existence) of Susy. I came across a video recently where Ariel is prototyping a "hipercar" with electric motors and a small turbine as a range extender. Again, had never seen this done and thought it was super cool/innovative. I guess they had their idea back when. Here is the video for anyone interested:

Ariel Hipercar – 1180bhp, 0-60mph In 2secs + Jet Engine?! | Top Gear


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## piotrsko (Dec 9, 2007)

Probably numerous electric converted school and transit busses sitting in commercial wrecking yards crying for battery packs. Bluebird has been custom building them for 10 years. Power train issues solved and even bolt in place assuming you have the chassis at hand. We know that's been solved for at least a year perhaps two even in this string. Must be thread creep.


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## Pixelcodex (4 mo ago)

piotrsko said:


> Probably numerous electric converted school and transit busses sitting in commercial wrecking yards crying for battery packs. Bluebird has been custom building them for 10 years. Power train issues solved and even bolt in place assuming you have the chassis at hand. We know that's been solved for at least a year perhaps two even in this string. Must be thread creep.


I am new to this forum, but all the threads I have looked at do not end in the way other car/motorcycle forums progress/end: with a build, maybe people still sorting some issues, etc. I know a lot of forum threads end with the person running out of money or interest, but a lot of these seem to be just dead without any outcome. Most of the ones that interested me that I looked at died without any kind of resolution on the OP. Is it because of the level of difficulty or what?


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## CliffordK (Oct 8, 2011)

Pixelcodex said:


> Most of the ones that interested me that I looked at died without any kind of resolution on the OP. Is it because of the level of difficulty or what?


Reading this thread, a number of people apparently have built electric buses.

But, there are a number of obstacles to overcome. Engine and Drivetrain, Battery, Expense, etc. And then, say one builds one's $50,000 motorhome, does it have the desired performance? 170 miles? Is that enough?

Early in the thread, offered choices of equipment was limited. Notes are that Teslas can give a lot of instantaneous power, but don't like high power output over extended periods of time. Same reason semis aren't powered by vintage smallblock Chevys.

Later in the thread, a number of differentials and motors were suggested. 

Smith has been building electric trucks for over a decade now, and could also donate parts. But the range is short, and even the speed is limited. There is a thread somewhere about somebody converting a pickup with a Smith powertrain.

Anyway, it is a good plan until one starts adding up all the time and parts to do the project.


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## remy_martian (Feb 4, 2019)

CliffordK said:


> Reading this thread, a number of people apparently have built electric buses.


Rereading this thread to see what I missed, a waste of time, *nobody has*. Where you got the idea a number of people have converted a bus to EV is beyond me.

Everybody kicked tires until they saw the cost and crap performance. Some may be dreaming, but I didn't see anybody actually building an EV...RV, yes, but that is not an EV.

Yes, there are commercial ventures building and selling new buses north of $200k a pop - that's irrelevant to this forum.


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## Pixelcodex (4 mo ago)

remy_martian said:


> Rereading this thread to see what I missed, a waste of time, *nobody has*. Where you got the idea a number of people have converted a bus to EV is beyond me.
> 
> Everybody kicked tires until they saw the cost and crap performance. Some may be dreaming, but I didn't see anybody actually building an EV...RV, yes, but that is not an EV.
> 
> Yes, there are commercial ventures building and selling new buses north of $200k a pop - that's irrelevant to this forum.


I know they are a commercial outfit, but what about your link I replied to a couple of posts back. Even though they are a commercial outfit, Wrightspeed seems to be making a crazy performance truck (does donuts in your words) and solved the issue of the crazy battery requirements with a small turbine, which is what Ariel is doing now for the sports car. That might be the right approach (a range extender), not that a turbine engine is something someone can build in their garage.


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## remy_martian (Feb 4, 2019)

The right approach for school buses, that justifies the spend, is it being a grid storage battery that happens to carry kids twice a day. That's how the Federal grant works (I made sure our senator included V2G as a requirement to get funding).

I think once Hummers get smashed up in quantity, there may be something there, but good luck getting one salvage for under $60k. And it'll be a massive effort grafting it into a bus.

The point was, nobody DIY has gone down that road after realizing how much battery they need and how beefy the drivetrain has to be.


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## CliffordK (Oct 8, 2011)

I've seen 3 Rivians come up on the salvage auctions so far, about $30K each. Although one might have been sold, relocated, then resold.

I think one Ford Transit EV popped up in Texas.

So far no F150 EVs, Silverado EVs, or Hummer EVs that I've found.

A Smith Newton Truck was for sale down LA a couple of months ago, but I think it is gone now. That one was missing the batteries, but otherwise was dirt cheap.

I'd imagine if one finds used and abused electric buses they'll also be cheap.

The pickups might be a little lightweight for the bus project, but they are supposed to be able to tow a fair amount which may be similar to moving a heavy bus around.

One may be able to make the bus 4 wheel drive... I.E. two drive motors.


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

CliffordK said:


> One may be able to make the bus 4 wheel drive... I.E. two drive motors.


That would require a complete front axle replacement... but of course that can be done (and has been done many times, just not for EV conversions).

As far as I know, all commercially produced battery-electric buses of school bus size and style are RWD only... they just use an appropriate motor.


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## remy_martian (Feb 4, 2019)

A Rivian does not curb at 9000 lb, nor does F150, so next to worthless for a bus. 

Silverado doesn't exist yet.


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

CliffordK said:


> The pickups might be a little lightweight for the bus project, but they are supposed to be able to tow a fair amount which may be similar to moving a heavy bus around.


Yes, it is similar. The weight of the empty vehicle (curb weight) and the Gross Vehicle Weight Rating (GVWR) - which is what the vehicle can carry on its own axles - are irrelevant to the powertrain.

The number relevant to suitable capacity in this case is Gross Combination Weight Rating (GCWR), which is how much the vehicle's powertrain can haul. In a car, that's typically not much more than the car's Gross Vehicle Weight Rating (GVWR) but a truck is intended to haul trailer weight as well. The engine (or motor) and transmission don't know or care whether the mass they're accelerating is carried on the same axles as the powertrain, or even on the same chassis of two linked vehicles (truck and trailer).

Unfortunately, even though an F-150 Lightning can tow (a suspiciously round number of) 10,000 pounds of trailer, so the powertrain can handle at least 16,000 pounds (given a 6,000 lb base curb weight), that's still too low for a full-size school bus... and that's using both front and rear drive units. The Rivian R1T and Silverado will be similar; the Hummer EV is heavier but might not have any higher GCWR.

Some of the motors from these pickups might be suitable for higher load if equipped with lower (more reduction) gearing and adequate cooling, but that's getting very far from just transplanting salvaged drive units into another vehicle.


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## CliffordK (Oct 8, 2011)

brian_ said:


> Some of the motors from these pickups might be suitable for higher load if equipped with lower (more reduction) gearing and adequate cooling, but that's getting very far from just transplanting salvaged drive units into another vehicle.


I was wondering about gear reduction.

There is 4.5 to 1 reduction gear set for the Tesla Large Drive Unit, designed to be coupled to a differential. So coupling that to a 4.10 differential, that gives one about 18.45:1, or about double the stock Tesla.

It would help a lot with the low end torque. 

But, overall, the gearing may not make a big difference if it takes 200 HP to make a vehicle move at speed as the kW load may be the same. However, it could help to split it to a front and rear drive unit using differentials donated from large 4x4's & 6x6's.


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

CliffordK said:


> I was wondering about gear reduction.
> 
> There is 4.5 to 1 reduction gear set for the Tesla Large Drive Unit, designed to be coupled to a differential. So coupling that to a 4.10 differential, that gives one about 18.45:1, or about double the stock Tesla.
> 
> ...


Splitting the drive to two axles is good for traction, if you need that for this bus, but it doesn't help with the ability of the motor to handle the load, and it adds drag.


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## remy_martian (Feb 4, 2019)

The Tesla drive unit cannot operate for extended periods at the power level needed to push a bus along. 

4.5:1 has nothing to do with it, if it's even available anymore (rumor was it isn't). Just because you can make it go doesn't mean it won't fail in 500 miles.

The Tesla LDU barely makes it to 100,000 miles in an aerodynamic car that's almost half the weight. A Model S (non-Plaid) is a 0-60 stoplight princess, nothing more.


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## piotrsko (Dec 9, 2007)

Just went and looked up the cummins motor for my old schoolbus: 1990 bluebird 50 passenger. 250 hp *525 lbft torque* and that bus was a slug crawl going up hills even empty. Otoh, it made those hp and torque specs for the 1/2 hour it takes to get from Reno to Truckee although not at 65 mph. The equivelant electric motor is going to need 186,500 watts and dissipate a high amount of heat. So maybe 800 volt battery pack and you require 233 amps minimum for that half hour trip, 466 @ 400v. Your battery has to be at least 100 kwh useable or a bunch of tesla packs stacked to get to Truckee, and it's going to be a while recharging even at a supercharger.

This comment was spitballing numbers and you can pick it apart all you want, but as F Zappa said:"Reality is a mother*"

The city has electric busses that in theory can go to Truckee, but they only go empty for an occasional demo and I do not know about additional support equipment like gensets.


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

piotrsko said:


> Just went and looked up the cummins motor for my old schoolbus: 1990 bluebird 50 passenger. 250 hp *525 lbft torque* and that bus was a slug crawl going up hills even empty. Otoh, it made those hp and torque specs for the 1/2 hour it takes to get from Reno to Truckee although not at 65 mph. The equivelant electric motor is going to need 186,500 watts and dissipate a high amount of heat. So maybe 800 volt battery pack and you require 233 amps minimum for that half hour trip, 466 @ 400v. Your battery has to be at least 100 kwh useable or a bunch of tesla packs stacked to get to Truckee, and it's going to be a while recharging even at a supercharger.
> 
> This comment was spitballing numbers and you can pick it apart all you want, but as F Zappa said:"Reality is a mother*"
> 
> The city has electric busses that in theory can go to Truckee, but they only go empty for an occasional demo and I do not know about additional support equipment like gensets.


Excellent reality check. 

A note on motor or engine performance specs: torque doesn't matter by itself, only in combination with speed. 525 lb-ft at 2,500 RPM or 175 lb-ft at 7,500 RPM is the same ability to do work (250 HP). Yes, that's 186 kW. 

By the way, that spec combination is strange: peak power for an engine is never at the same speed as peak torque; 525 lb-ft peak torque is plausible for a Cummins B5.9 (likely at 1600 RPM) but it won't maintain that torque to 2500 and so won't produce 250 HP, a 250 HP B5.9 (likely at 2500 RPM) or B8.3 (at 2400 RPM) will produce much more than 525 lb-ft of peak torque (over 600 lb-ft, at 1300 to 1600 RPM).​
Reno to Truckee is only 32 miles one way. In Edmonton we have battery-electric city buses here that could do that round-trip five times... but that have 675 kWh batteries and the cost about one million dollars more than the diesel equivalent. You can have the range you want, but there's a price...

RTC Washoe appears to have two models of battery-electric buses:

Proterra EcoRide BE35 - this is presumably the short-range model mentioned, with a UQM PowerPhase 150 permanent magnet motor (that is occasionally available used) and a 368 volt battery with capacity of 54 to 72 kWh weighing 1650 to 2200 lb (750 to 1000 kg)
Proterra Catalyst BE40 - later, bigger, longer-range model
Edmonton uses a newer version of the Proterra Catalyst.


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## piotrsko (Dec 9, 2007)

google fails to mention that Truckee is ~ 2000 ft higher than Reno with a couple of long 6% climbs. But good enough. Not sure about the 32 official miles, though. 

Didn't know we had two versions but that does explain the one blue hangar queen demo bus.

Thanks for the google fu back up


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

piotrsko said:


> google fails to mention that Truckee is ~ 2000 ft higher than Reno with a couple of long 6% climbs.


I assumed that Truckee was chosen as an example because of an elevation difference, but I had not looked up the value yet... sorry to leave that hanging.

Climbing 2,000 feet on a 6% grade only takes 6.3 miles, so if the whole climb were at 6% then most of the distance would be flat. Of course it will be a mix of grades (with higher road speed achievable at lower grades), but the point is that the vehicle's motor will not be working at full power for the entire time. The 250 HP is not being used continuously, but it's still not unreasonable to look for a motor that can handle 160 kW continuously, rather than just for a few minutes of hard climbing, especially for the originally posted application. The UQM PowerPhase 150 in the Reno buses can only handle 100 kW continuously (and 150 kW peak) but that's apparently enough. All of this is consistent with my comments in post #6.

Just for perspective: to raise ten tonnes (10,000 kg, 22,000 lb) at the vertical speed climbing a 6% grade at 90 km/h (55 MPH), which is 1.5 m/s or 5 ft/s, is 147 kW (simply the weight multiplied by the vertical speed, in appropriate units)... and that's before adding the power needed to keep the vehicle moving along the road against rolling resistance and aerodynamic drag at that speed. Climbing fast in a heavy vehicle requires serious power.


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## piotrsko (Dec 9, 2007)

Actually chose Truckee because of the rapid up and down elevation changes to get there mostly required flat to the floor throttle application a significant portion of the trip. As said, tesla motors can't do that.

22 ish miles Reno to Carson models your relatively flat scenerio with two pulls which the electrics do manage when they are working as specified.(local bus driver joke)


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## Tk1968 (17 d ago)

Spyderrock said:


> For what its worth other than a trolly car. Disney ride or something like that the first real electric vehicle was an electric Bluebird full size school bus. That was 1982 in Mesa Verde National Park. They used electric bluebirds for several reasons. Among those: braking over the extreme grades, strudy chassis over the extreme roads, and they didn't stink up the place with diesel.


This is not true. It amazes me how much history we forget or never learn. The first "real electric vehicle other than a trolley car or Disney ride" was much longer ago than 1982. 

I saw one of the electric "horseless carriages" from over 100 years ago in a county historical museum, in Indiana, on an elementary school field trip. 

The first electric cars date back to almost the 1830's, per the US Department of Energy.
The History of the Electric Car


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