# Who will make the EV battery for the masses?



## Fink (Aug 10, 2009)

I've been all around this technology and just happened upon your world here. So welcome me!
Any how Ecotality (ETLY) is an infrastructure company that has teamed up with Nissan to build charging stations. I know big deal, but Obama just gave em 100Million to jump start thier mission. Its comming, but I put this question to this learned crowd. Who is making the batteries of choice to develop and sell to all these 5,000,000 EV cars that Obama wants on our roads?
This is not a debate, just looking for info.


And why in Hell did GM kill the EV1? What a bone head move. 
Has The Orion guys get Stan Myers dune buggy figured out yet?
And where Is`Herman Anderson's Hydrogen cars? 
pm me, post or I yahoo as tm4rs.

I'm looking for my Tesla
Much thanks Tom


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## Sunking (Aug 10, 2009)

That is a good question. The answer is the company who can develop a battery with the minimum specs:



300 wh/kg
3000 charge/discharge cycles with less than 20% capacity loss over 10 years
100% DOD without capacity loss or damage
4C charge rate to enable 15 minute recharge time.
10C discharge rate for acceleration
$200 per Kwh so the masses can afford it.
 
With those specs and you can build a mid-sized car with 300 mile range, good acceleration (0-60 in 5 seconds), cruise speeds at autobahn rates, all the bells and whistles, and a starting price of $20K so the masses can afford and use it. With a motor efficiency of 200 wh/mile would workout to 2 to 5-cents per mile fuel cost in the USA depending on local utility rates. It could be charged at home over night, or 15 minutes or less at a commercial recharge station designed for the purpose.

Whatever company can do this, would basically own the world with untold riches. Not only would it make EV’s practical for the masses, it would also make renewable energy sources practical and viable.

The good news IMO is that battery with the exception of the cost Per Kwh is in the design phase already and about 5 to 10 years out. I know it will be a lithium ion design with some unknown cathode material.


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## DavidDymaxion (Dec 1, 2008)

http://www.fireflyenergy.com/ I like their approach -- remove 2/3 of the weight of a lead acid battery by using carbon foam. Their current battery just has one electrode with carbon foam and is no lighter, though they claim higher energy and longevity. The lighter one has both electrodes as carbon foam, but is still vaporware. It gives me some hope Firefly is a subsidiary of Caterpillar. I like the thought of 1/2 the performance of lithium for 1/4 the cost.

Lithium already has huge economies of scale (millions of tool batteries, laptop batteries, etc.), so I don't have much hope there'll be a big price drop.



Sunking said:


> That is a good question. The answer is the company who can develop a battery with the minimum specs:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Fink (Aug 10, 2009)

But who are the big players, you know? The guys that are putting thier batteries in the Prius, GM's EV cars, Tesla, All the Jap's. Someone has those contracts and there has to be a big manufacturer that all these guys will be going to. And of course many start ups. Don't think its Duracell, or Rayovac


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## Fink (Aug 10, 2009)

DavidDymaxion said:


> http://www.fireflyenergy.com/


Thanks David checked ou thier web site. They looked into Stmulus $$ but stated Obama's crew is looking more into Lithium technology instead of thiers. I think they are making a play for funds in the light of creating jobs.
Tom


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## Fink (Aug 10, 2009)

http://www.compactpower.com/index.shtml

http://www.energy.gov/news2009/7749.htm

http://www.valence.com/ VLNC
and BINGO!

http://ir.valence.com/releasedetail.cfm?ReleaseID=399614

I know of Smith Electric Vehicals...they got a chunk of money as listed on DOE list.


DD
http://www.a123systems.com/


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## Sunking (Aug 10, 2009)

Fink said:


> But who are the big players, you know? The guys that are putting thier batteries in the Prius, GM's EV cars, Tesla,


A123 Systems gets a huge chunk of them.


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## Sunking (Aug 10, 2009)

DavidDymaxion said:


> http://www.fireflyenergy.com/ I like their approach -- remove 2/3 of the weight of a lead acid battery by using carbon foam... still vaporware.


I mean no offense, but what the heck does Fire Fly make exactly other than Press Releases? Looks like another EESTOR


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## ClintK (Apr 27, 2008)

Fink said:


> I've been all around this technology and just happened upon your world here. So welcome me!
> Any how Ecotality (ETLY) is an infrastructure company that has teamed up with Nissan to build charging stations. I know big deal, but Obama just gave em 100Million to jump start thier mission. Its comming, but I put this question to this learned crowd. Who is making the batteries of choice to develop and sell to all these 5,000,000 EV cars that Obama wants on our roads?


The Chinese... mostly Sky Energy. You can buy their LiFePO4 batteries right now from a number of sources. They are costly but reasonably priced and can power a well designed car 200+ miles. Prices have dropped substantially the past couple years. Any better battery development / technology out there won't be available until Obama leaves office (either 4 or 8 years from now).

Unless the battery has a 'Buy Now' button next to it, I don't even bother looking at it anymore - not worth the effort for more broken promises / fantasy goals.


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## shoup (Feb 10, 2009)

Chrysler is working with A123 on for Li-Ion batteries, not sure what they are making, or if it is even still in the works
GM has sourced LG for the Volt
The Prius uses a battery made by Panasonic


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## DavidDymaxion (Dec 1, 2008)

Firefly is selling batteries today! However, these have only 1 carbon foam electrode, but they claim about 2 to 3x the cycle life for them (in terms of total energy throughput).

The vaporware part is the battery with both + and - electrodes made with carbon foam. Calling it vaporware was not really fair, as they are currently producing the half carbon foam battery now, and hopefully it is just details to make both electrodes carbon foam.

http://www.fireflyenergy.com/images/stories/pdfs/Firefly Energy FF12D1-G31 Spec sheet FINAL.pdf


Sunking said:


> I mean no offense, but what the heck does Fire Fly make exactly other than Press Releases? Looks like another EESTOR


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## PhantomPholly (Aug 20, 2008)

DavidDymaxion said:


> http://www.fireflyenergy.com/ I like their approach -- remove 2/3 of the weight of a lead acid battery by using carbon foam. Their current battery just has one electrode with carbon foam and is no lighter, though they claim higher energy and longevity. The lighter one has both electrodes as carbon foam, but is still vaporware. It gives me some hope Firefly is a subsidiary of Caterpillar. I like the thought of 1/2 the performance of lithium for 1/4 the cost.
> 
> Lithium already has huge economies of scale (millions of tool batteries, laptop batteries, etc.), so I don't have much hope there'll be a big price drop.


An interesting thought is that a similar approach ought to work with other chemistrys, too.


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## Fink (Aug 10, 2009)

ClintK said:


> The Chinese... mostly Sky Energy. You can buy their LiFePO4 batteries right now from a number of sources. They are costly but reasonably priced and can power a well designed car 200+ miles. Prices have dropped substantially the past couple years. Any better battery development / technology out there won't be available until Obama leaves office (either 4 or 8 years from now).
> 
> Unless the battery has a 'Buy Now' button next to it, I don't even bother looking at it anymore - not worth the effort for more broken promises / fantasy goals.


All very good info.
I found Valence Technology Inc. (VLNC) they supply Smith Electric Vehical and probably what Iwas looking for. 
http://si.advfn.com/p.php?pid=nmona&cb=1250058119&article=38808939&symbol=N%5EVLNC

Clint, I love what you have done to that tiny Brit iron. I'm sure the torque curve has been much improved! Do you even need the 4 gears? I though its solid torque to top speed. 
If you get discouraged check out my project car. It'll make you feel so much better. I can see 10 years into this. You can stuff some batteries under that hood/ bonnet
Tom
http://www.xkedata.com/cars/detail/?car=1E13902


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## Libellule (Apr 3, 2009)

Here some new about who manufacture parts of the battery
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/05/090505124756.htm
Well it look like some of the manufacturing plan are base in CDN!!

Or
New development for the Lithium battery
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/05/090518111731.htm

Little foward in advance, but its going in the right direction

HINT!!


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## OHM (Jun 30, 2008)

Zebra for large vehicles, light rail and off grid.

A123 for mass produced vehicles

sky energy for DIY 

Im hoping Zebra gets their act together and
builds the 2000 dollar ones for us all instead
just for OEM.


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## Wiredsim (Jul 4, 2008)

I realize that no one wants to hear about "3 - 5 year" advancement announcements, but this one looks very promising:

http://www.technologyreview.com/energy/23240/

They switched the Anode material from graphite to Silicon coated carbon nano-wires. Boosting the charge potential six times to 2000Ah/kg. This actually seems to be a fairly reasonable advancement, carbon nano-wires are already available in bulk and pretty cheap. The only barrier is developing a commercial bulk process to coat them in silicon, which to my mind seems pretty doable!


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## OHM (Jun 30, 2008)

Some EV battery objectives and pitfalls

weighr should be no more than say 200kg

Range options and market segments: 
60-100km (8 hour recharge) most budget commuters
80km (4hr 90% recharge) many budget commuters
120km (2hr 90% re-charge) middle to upper market commuters
300+km (with 5 minute 90% re-charge) upper market market commuters
EV battery manufacturers should really aim for proper battery product placement.

2000+ cycles at 70 DOD or leased by energy stations/government/PBP

generic packaging:
Flat as possible to suit length and width of most floorpans
eg. SUV, MiniBus, Family wagon, 4WD, sedans etc.

Initially the biggest problem I see is companies never deciding on generic
sizes so less chance of adopting PBP (project better place) plans.
In the future higher capacity batteries will allow the problem of todays
mobile phone and laptop batteries in all shape and sizes but the near
future would be brighter for EVs if some standard pack sizes came to fruition.


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## ClintK (Apr 27, 2008)

Fink said:


> Clint, I love what you have done to that tiny Brit iron. I'm sure the torque curve has been much improved! Do you even need the 4 gears? I though its solid torque to top speed.
> If you get discouraged check out my project car. It'll make you feel so much better. I can see 10 years into this. You can stuff some batteries under that hood/ bonnet
> Tom
> http://www.xkedata.com/cars/detail/?car=1E13902


Bottomfeeder is using a larger motor with lead acid, and he mentioned he might get away with a single speed. My motor though is fairly small but the car's weight is basically stock... we'll see in a few weeks. 

Nice car! You've got some work ahead of you!


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