# [EVDL] Siamese EV Motors



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

I would say unless you plan on racing it or taking it to the tractor pulls, save your money. One 9 inch ADC packs plenty of punch for an S10.

damon


> Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2008 09:27:01 -0800
> From: [email protected]
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: [EVDL] Siamese EV Motors
>
> I am considering using a simesed 9" ADC motor in my
> S-10 project and was wondering how it would work as a
> commuter EV motor or are they better in a high
> performance type of application? Right now, I will be
> using a 144 volt system and eventually plan to upgrade
> to a Zilla controller and very likely a higher voltage
> system. The controller I have right now is limited to
> 144 volts. Thanks for any thoughts about this. Dan Eyk
>
> Daniel Eyk
> Vancouver, Wa.
>
> Electric S-10 project
> E-15 project
>
>
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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

I dissagree. And I think it is sort of a seperate issue.
With a single 9, I have to use the transmission.
I would like to try siamese 9's. The math works out that it would
perform the same in series without the tranny as when 1 motor in 2nd gear.
After the S/P switch the math works out to haveing twice the avail
torque in that upper region.

This is with a zilla 1k, With a zilla 2k you get twice the torque across
the whole range!

One more benifit, it is actually difficult to get full output of the
zilla 1k even with only one motor because of the voltage limit on the comm.
With two motors in series, the limits can be set higher in the zilla
giving you more in that "first gear"

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Hey all

I'm currently working on two Siamesed Impulse9's
(George is calling them Jimpulse9's, lol) for Eric
(shaft guy) and his buddy Jeff (very automotive) but
being they're waiting on Zilla's (and Eric and I have
the daily grind) they're not a super pressing matter
(but they coming along nice now 8^)

Flash to the last week or so and I have a "confirmed"
wants a full length Siamese9 (maybe have to call it
the Siamese9 HD (heavy duty, lol). I've got two guys
from Australia and then another couple inquiries (five
total, in the last week!, one from Russia!). Being it
costs me just under 150.00 for a single motor in
freight, freighting multible sets at a time starts to
shave the costs down. Being able to do a small run
would also play a huge role in getting the costs down.
As it stands now Eric and I have EVerything measured
and drawn and most of the shell mods done on the first
Impulse twin.

I figuered I'd weigh in on why the hell I'd do this
and maybe further why the hell would anyone want one
8^o 

First and formost I mostly do what you guys ask me to
so as far as these backassward motors go, I say we
blame Wayland! With that said, I've had a dozen or so
inquieries over the last year or so, as to what's it
take and how much? but have been limited in my ability
to obtain a cost viable shaft solution, that is until
Eric and I hooked up. 

Anyway it won't be long before the Siamese motor will
go from a one hit wonder and "mostly" vaporware to a
viable product. I'm the last one here who wants to
price himself out of a job so I'll be pinching pennies
best I can to offer as much bang for the buck as can
be done (and not all motors have to be fancy)(although
I may not showcase them on the site, LMAO). With that
said, I am hoping that people do factor in what it
takes in time and money to make adaptor plates, motor
couplers, and misc motor mounting and adapting costs
as this motor setup will be about as plug-n-play as it
gets.

These motors will come with the tranny snout and shaft
like the Transwarps and I'll set them up ready for the
Zilla tach sensor (actually one of my most common
motor requests) as well. The front motor side will
feature ajustable brush timing so it can be timed to
the rear half, as well as be shifted off advanced
timing for driving to a neutral timing for reverse. 

I chose the Warp motor for a several reasons, one I
can just press the shafts where as on the ADC9's I
have to bore them out so this costs time and I waste a
perfectly good shaft that someone else could use. The
Warp armatures / shafts are also keyed, so this is
going to make for a better armature to shaft press fit
without having to rockpile the arms on and possibly
deform or tweak the shaft and should prove more user
friendly. The 9" motors also have a 1 3/8th inch
diameter shaft where as John's 8's are no more than 1
3/16th at the thick part and 1 1/8th at the front
motors comm area. I also see NetGain trying to
improve their products to better suit the needs of the
EV'er by listening to EVer's so I wan't to reward that
as best I can as well. I will say all the talk in the
world really doesn't put food on the table for the
people who are trying to fill small EV niches as they
really do need the support 8^) You'd probably have no
Idea how many times people have bought a motor
elsewhere and seek free motor tech and as much as I'm
happy to help it can sting a bit to be honest. I also
thought the Impulse9 (being the same length as John's
8's but thicker shaft)(shut up Mike, sicko)(LMAO) that
it really had all the best qualities (from
pre-existing motors) as something that could go out to
the track and prowl with the tigers but also be
something that might be used to drive old Miss Daisy
(until she pulled up to the punk in the Camero, hehe)

Now I'm not an EE but EVen I know you don't put three
bearings on a shaft! But the way I see it people like
Wayland (BS)(before Siamses), Matt Graham, Mike
Willmon, Shawn Lawless, once they hard lock those two
motor together there are four bearings on essentually
one shaft, and there is no way I'm buying that they've
got them motors dialed in dead on, just no way! EVen
trimming Shawns and Mikes housings to within a few
thousandth of each other I see this as an inline motor
issue. 

I was hoping to see some input here as I'm getting
emails from others who see what White Zombie can do
but I'm not the EV guy, just the motor dork 8^) It
did seem to me that John had impressive stats when WZ
is drove more like a daily (AKA no smoke ripping out
it's backside).
I really think the Impulse9 version will make a great
daily driver motor as it'll weigh in at between 240 to
250 lbs. EVen if it came in at the same weight as an
11" there are dual comms and 16 brushes to pass
current instead of just 8 brushes. I'm also thinking
that these might start making auto trannied cars
viable donnor options for people. There is no doubt
that these will not be for EVeryone, but I'm hoping
there might be a few of you that might find such a
motor appealing, and if done in small runs maybe not
as expensive as you might think, specially if the
additional attachments are factored in.
Anyway, just thought I'd jump in here as to what's
going on at the shop.
Cya
Jim (Wayland made me do it) Husted
Hi-Torque Electric




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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Jim,

I'd love to do a conversion with a Siamese 9". I hope you're still
doing them in 3-5 years; I can't afford a car conversion before then.

-Morgan LaMoore



> Jim Husted <xxx[email protected]> wrote:
> > Hey all
> >
> > I'm currently working on two Siamesed Impulse9's...
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Wouldn't a single 13" netgain do the same amount of work as two 9s? I
would think the setup would be much easier and less expensive. Not to
mention lighter. 

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On
Behalf Of Jim Husted
Sent: Wednesday, January 23, 2008 23:37
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Siamese EV Motors

Hey all

I'm currently working on two Siamesed Impulse9's (George is calling them
Jimpulse9's, lol) for Eric (shaft guy) and his buddy Jeff (very
automotive) but being they're waiting on Zilla's (and Eric and I have
the daily grind) they're not a super pressing matter (but they coming
along nice now 8^)

Flash to the last week or so and I have a "confirmed"
wants a full length Siamese9 (maybe have to call it the Siamese9 HD
(heavy duty, lol). I've got two guys from Australia and then another
couple inquiries (five total, in the last week!, one from Russia!).
Being it costs me just under 150.00 for a single motor in freight,
freighting multible sets at a time starts to shave the costs down.
Being able to do a small run would also play a huge role in getting the
costs down.
As it stands now Eric and I have EVerything measured and drawn and most
of the shell mods done on the first Impulse twin.

I figuered I'd weigh in on why the hell I'd do this and maybe further
why the hell would anyone want one 8^o 

First and formost I mostly do what you guys ask me to so as far as these
backassward motors go, I say we blame Wayland! With that said, I've had
a dozen or so inquieries over the last year or so, as to what's it take
and how much? but have been limited in my ability to obtain a cost
viable shaft solution, that is until Eric and I hooked up. 

Anyway it won't be long before the Siamese motor will go from a one hit
wonder and "mostly" vaporware to a viable product. I'm the last one
here who wants to price himself out of a job so I'll be pinching pennies
best I can to offer as much bang for the buck as can be done (and not
all motors have to be fancy)(although I may not showcase them on the
site, LMAO). With that said, I am hoping that people do factor in what
it takes in time and money to make adaptor plates, motor couplers, and
misc motor mounting and adapting costs as this motor setup will be about
as plug-n-play as it gets.

These motors will come with the tranny snout and shaft like the
Transwarps and I'll set them up ready for the Zilla tach sensor
(actually one of my most common motor requests) as well. The front
motor side will feature ajustable brush timing so it can be timed to the
rear half, as well as be shifted off advanced timing for driving to a
neutral timing for reverse. 

I chose the Warp motor for a several reasons, one I can just press the
shafts where as on the ADC9's I have to bore them out so this costs time
and I waste a perfectly good shaft that someone else could use. The
Warp armatures / shafts are also keyed, so this is going to make for a
better armature to shaft press fit without having to rockpile the arms
on and possibly deform or tweak the shaft and should prove more user
friendly. The 9" motors also have a 1 3/8th inch diameter shaft where
as John's 8's are no more than 1 3/16th at the thick part and 1 1/8th at
the front motors comm area. I also see NetGain trying to improve their
products to better suit the needs of the EV'er by listening to EVer's so
I wan't to reward that as best I can as well. I will say all the talk
in the world really doesn't put food on the table for the people who are
trying to fill small EV niches as they really do need the support 8^)
You'd probably have no Idea how many times people have bought a motor
elsewhere and seek free motor tech and as much as I'm happy to help it
can sting a bit to be honest. I also thought the Impulse9 (being the
same length as John's 8's but thicker shaft)(shut up Mike, sicko)(LMAO)
that it really had all the best qualities (from pre-existing motors) as
something that could go out to the track and prowl with the tigers but
also be something that might be used to drive old Miss Daisy (until she
pulled up to the punk in the Camero, hehe)

Now I'm not an EE but EVen I know you don't put three bearings on a
shaft! But the way I see it people like Wayland (BS)(before Siamses),
Matt Graham, Mike Willmon, Shawn Lawless, once they hard lock those two
motor together there are four bearings on essentually one shaft, and
there is no way I'm buying that they've got them motors dialed in dead
on, just no way! EVen trimming Shawns and Mikes housings to within a
few thousandth of each other I see this as an inline motor issue. 

I was hoping to see some input here as I'm getting emails from others
who see what White Zombie can do but I'm not the EV guy, just the motor
dork 8^) It did seem to me that John had impressive stats when WZ is
drove more like a daily (AKA no smoke ripping out it's backside).
I really think the Impulse9 version will make a great daily driver motor
as it'll weigh in at between 240 to 250 lbs. EVen if it came in at the
same weight as an 11" there are dual comms and 16 brushes to pass
current instead of just 8 brushes. I'm also thinking that these might
start making auto trannied cars viable donnor options for people. There
is no doubt that these will not be for EVeryone, but I'm hoping there
might be a few of you that might find such a motor appealing, and if
done in small runs maybe not as expensive as you might think, specially
if the additional attachments are factored in.
Anyway, just thought I'd jump in here as to what's going on at the shop.
Cya
Jim (Wayland made me do it) Husted
Hi-Torque Electric





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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

--- "Dewey, Jody R ATC COMNAVAIRLANT, N422G5G"


> <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> > Wouldn't a single 13" netgain do the same amount of
> > work as two 9s? I
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Maybe a thought might be to put siamese motors side by side instead of
just end to end. I have seen an adapter for two 8s that put them side
by side in a 914. I would think that would make it so they could fit in
almost any vehicle. I agree on the extra coms making it a better
choice. I didn't know the size of the comms on the 13. 

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On
Behalf Of Jim Husted
Sent: Thursday, January 24, 2008 10:52
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Siamese EV Motors


--- "Dewey, Jody R ATC COMNAVAIRLANT, N422G5G"


> <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> > Wouldn't a single 13" netgain do the same amount of work as two 9s? I
> 
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Hey Jim,
good to see you are up and at em. Well we just had
our first cancellation for Electric Dragin but we have
decided to go ahead anyway...to much momentum and So 
Cal weather is too unpredictable. Hope the rest of
those signed up come on down as we will have a good
time sharing regardless of the weather. Like I said
the other day we cannot dictate to Mother Nature but
we can Pray that she will Have A Heart and let us run.
Hope to see you all
kEVs


> --- Jim Husted <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> >
> > --- "Dewey, Jody R ATC COMNAVAIRLANT, N422G5G"
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

BTW,
the former post did have something to do with siamese
motors as Jim and I are planing on a mini siamese link
up of two 4" motors for Orange Crush at Electric
Dragin
--- keith vansickle <[email protected]>


> wrote:
> 
> > Hey Jim,
> > good to see you are up and at em. Well we just had
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

One good property of the twins that I determined to be a benefit was the RPM
range can be higher for the smaller diameter motors. If I had gone with a
single 11" motor (vs the twin 9's) the max RMP I could acheive, with the
gear ratio I needed for acceptable launches, would have limited me to a
speed too low for the times I was expecting to turn. This of course assumes
you'll be racing and pushing the limits of torque and RPM of the motors. So
it encourages me that if Dennis Berube is running a 13" motor into a 3.25
gear ratio and not blowing up at high RPM, then my twin 9's with similar
launch torque will be able to top out a little higher than I expected in the
RPM range. But that will be a good comparison when it comes to light.

To comment to another poster about side by side mounting realize that any
gearing, chain or belt drive to tie them together will have more loss than
hard coupling them together end to end.

Just a piece of "real world data" for you Jim (because I know you like that
stuff) the Dodge gear coupler with two "flex" hubs (like I have) will
allow up to 1.5 degrees of misalignment at rated power transmission. I'm
sure you would lose some amount of efficiency if they were not perfectly
aligned, but if I were to guess it wouldn't be more than an average chain or
belt drive. Plus the Dodge gear coupler and the two rails I used to bolt my
motors together is cheaper than a parallel motor bracket and belt drive set
up (when I was pricing it out anyway). It would seem to me that any car
with a tunnel too small for the inline motors may well have a hard time
fitting them in side by side and still be able to get the drive to come out
in the right location.


Mike


> Jim Husted wrote
In all honesty, the one big
> motor, vs two smaller motors is an area I'm hoping to
> get more data on, but from what I've seen so far twin
> motors has a lot of good properies to offer.
> Cya
> Jim Husted
> Hi-Torque Electric
> 

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

[No message]


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Hey Jim,
I'm betting on the twin/Siamese motors being better than the next size
bigger single motor, mainly for the added RPM range and the extra brushes
like you say, (at least for racing). The top end is absolutely a limiting
factor on a bigger motor since you have to pick your rear gear as a
compromise between launch torque and top speed. Giving the additional
high end RPM lets you pick that gear for the best launch characteristics.
If I had the RPM to run a 4.11 I certainly would. But 3.25 is what I came
up with. (A triamese 8 might give the torque of a dual 9 and still allow RPM
swings for a 4.11 gear ratio). Now Dennis has a 13" with the same gear so
I'm hoping to get some good comparisons. I would prefer however to compare
dual 9's with a single 11, but 13" it is and so we'll see how they compare.
Doesn't Michael Kaddie run an 11". Michael maybe you can comment on your
gear ratio. 

But back to my original intent of this reply about the extra bearings and
motor alignment. Are you saying EE's know NOT to put 3 bearings on a
shaft, but that they'll certainly put four ;-P

If you "hard" couple the shafts and do not have balls on alignment I'm sure
you will have a problem, either in the coupler or a bearing wear problem.
However the Dodge gear couple does allow flex and misalignment up to 1.5
degrees and a TIR of some small amount for full power rating. I can tell
you by eyeballing my motors that they are pretty close to balls on. I have
some special high temp, oil resistant rubber gaskets I'm going to put
between the motor rails and the housings (right now its just an old inner
tube material). Once I get that replaced with the good stuff I can tweek
and twiddle those rails and get the alignment pretty damn close before I
lock those coupler flanges together. I only have the analog inclinometer,
but Hank has a real precise digital unit that will read to hundredths.
We'll see how close they come. Of course a lot of that easy alignment is
contributed to by your precision trimming and mounting hole placement. I'd
definitely recommend the shave job for both twin alignment and pretty paint
characteristics ;-)

If you do any more of those mounting holes let me know how others like them.
I think putting them precisely 1" from the ends of the housing will make
them easy to design mounts for, unless you wanted to come up with a standard
spacing so that a single rail could potentially fit an 8", 9" or 11" motor.
Maybe make 1" from the ends of an 8" housing the standard spacing. That
should still work fine for a single 9 or single 11", or 2 if heaven forbid
someone wanted twin 11"s.

I don't know, just some thoughts.

Mike



> > Jim Husted wrote:
> >
> >
> > Now I'm not an EE but EVen I know you don't put three
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

I really haven't thought it through, but I'm guessing neither have you.
the claim that smaller motors have higher rpm seems dubious to me. 
netgain for instance lists all their motors as 5500rpm. from 8 to 13".
also that the number of brushes should matter since the brushes for the 
larger motor is hopefully made for its size

what I could imagine though is that two smaller ones in parallel could 
have higher current capability if the wires of the larger one was not 
significantly bigger. that is to say what voltage it's made for. if all 
of them are of same voltage I figure the big guy should have suitably 
higher current capability too.

all things being equal I would reallty avoid building a new custom motor 
out of two rather than using one larger. I trust you would not combine 8 
3" motors rather than use one larger either.
in other words you should really know why you combine two rather than 
use one larger.

maybe ask Wayland why he did. maybe because bigger wasn't available at 
the time.

I heard a story about a woman who cut off both ends of a roast before 
putting it in a pot, she didn't know why, just that her mother did it 
like that. she then called her mother and she said it was because she 
didn't have a pot big enough to fit it whole..

Dan

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Hello to All,

As the co-designer (Jim Husted, Tim Brehm, and I) of the original 
Siamese 8 motor in White Zombie, as the one who gave name to the idea of 
joining two 8 inch DC motors at the head with their coms at opposite 
ends as 'Siamese 8', and as the only one currently using such a setup in 
an EV that doubles as both a drag track car and a very drivable street 
legal car, I thought I'd step in on this one....

----- Original Message -----
From: Dan Frederiksen <[email protected]>
Date: Friday, January 25, 2008 10:57 am
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Siamese EV Motors
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <[email protected]>

>I really haven't thought it through, but I'm guessing neither have 
>you.
>


MIKE WILLMON responded:

>Dan you guess wrong. And if you haven't thought it through then the claim that smaller motors are better would be dubious to you.
> 
>

I have to back Mike up on this one. Mike indeed, has thought it through 
quite thoroughly. For Dan to 'have guessed' that Mike has not 'thought 
it through' is completely wrong...he has.

>But I have thought about it quite a bit...for over a year now.
>I've discussed it with others who have done the two motor thing (and have thought about it quite a bit too)...on list and off list.
>Those folks have also commented and talked about it on this list.
>I've talked to the manufacturer as well and got their inputs.
> 
>


Mike and I started having email and phone discussions more than a year 
ago together, over what was at the time just an idea, about his 
outrageous dual 9 inch motored Pinto project. As he has said, Mike asked 
lots of questions, did his research, talked with other hi pro type EV 
designers/racers, and followed through back to me about my continued 
success with twin smaller motors when compared to the same car with a 
single larger motor. In addition to all of this, we have also met 
face-to-face in the summer of '06 in Alaska, then again this past summer 
here in Portland at the Wayland Invitational III.

Over my many years as an EV designer, builder, driver, and full-out Amp 
Head EV drag racer, I've had hundreds of folks take lots of my time to 
get my ideas on this and that. It's always been frustrating to give up 
hours and hours of my time on the phone, via email, and in person here 
at the Wayland EV Juice Bar trying to help someone out, only to have 
them not take my advice (especially in areas where I'm well qualified), 
seek out other's opinions (others who are many times under-qualified to 
give such advice) and take their advice, then have their project turn 
out to be a big disappointment. In such circumstances I oftentimes blurt 
out loud 'Why did I bother with them?' Mike does not fall into this 
category at all, and it's been very rewarding to see him thoughtfully 
take some of my ideas that he knows are proven to work, plus good ideas 
from others, plus a healthy does of his own ideas, and shape them into 
the 'Crazy Horse' Pinto project.
To suggest that Mike does not think things through is simply wrong.


>There are specs a manufacturer will publish officially. And there are limits to which a motor will take before throwing the commutators. Those numbers are not necessarily the same. And in this case I was told they are not. So...according the manufacturer they are the same, but unofficially and according to...
>

The above illustrates the big difference between those who think inside 
a box and those who think outside out of it.

I was told many years ago by a guy who told me at least three times 
during very conversation that has was a double E, that it was impossible 
for me to propel my electric Datsun 1200 down the 1/4 mile in anything 
under 15 seconds...so much for specs and calculations! If I had only 
read the specs of the Advanced DC 9 inch motor and had not met such 
great EV pioneers as Ed Rannberg and Rod Wilde, and if I had not gone 
out on a limb and experimented with this and that, I would still think 
that a single 9 inch DC motor was fairly low powered (when ran at its 
max specs). I of course did some of my own 'thinking outside the box' 
and discovered just how much power this motor can make with 2000+ amps 
and at voltages far exceeding its max specs! Those still doubting should 
check out the videos page at Plasma Boy Racing and click on the '96 
power-burn of White Zombie when running on a single 9 inch ADC motor fed 
with 1200 amps and 180 volts...both specs way beyond the manufacturer's 
ratings...and that motor is still running perfectly today with never a 
rebuild!

Like Dan, many get pigeon-holed into a spec page and go by the 
manufacturer's specs because quite frankly, they have little-to-no hands 
on experience. It's OK to not yet have hands-on experience and do your 
best by checking specs, it's better to use specs 'and' get info from 
those who've actually built and tested things, but it's foolish to argue 
with someone who've actually had hands on experience when you yourself 
have not. In this case, to my knowledge Dan has not designed a single 
EV...Mike has. To my knowledge Dan has not built a single EV...Mike has. 
To my knowledge Dan does not regularly drive an EV...Mike does. Dan has 
not met face to face with EV drag racers, seen the vehicles, looked at 
the motors, controllers, battery packs, drive train components, 
etc....Mike has. Dan has not met with and discussed for hours on end 
with today's premiere DC motor designer-repairman Jim Husted...Mike has. 
Dan has not had any motors modified and expertly crafted by Jim...Mike 
has. Mike has actually experienced a ride behind the Siamese 8 at full 
boil...Dan has not.

I think it's pretty safe to say Mike has thought this all out!

>When you are talking about thousandths of seconds in time difference to win a race or a record because one design has 5% more torque per amp, or 1000 extra RPM before comm failure, then you really have to consider exactly what the benefits can get you. Even if it means doing some extra work, thats what you do to win.
> 
>

Well said! Been there, doing that.

>As Jim has said many times on this list..."real world data" on machines people are experimenting with now I would tend to lean toward the more brush the better. The 11" might have bigger brushes, but they are not twice the area?...the brush leads on the 11" are probably the same as the ones they put on the 9". I would say twice the brush lead will handle twice the current.
> 
>

Exactly correct. With the dual coms and brush riggings of the Siamese 8, 
there is roughly twice the copper com area and twice brush material to 
handle the extreme currents of EV drag racing when compared to a single 
larger motor's com/brush area. In addition to this, as Mike so 
accurately points out, the smaller diameter of the coms of the 8's means 
there far less centrifugal forces on the com bars as a larger diameter 
com spinning at the same rpm. If two setups are pretty much equal in 
torque capability, that is a single large motor makes about the same 
torque as two smaller ones, and with both cars geared the same, the one 
with the twin smaller motors will be able to hit higher rpms at the far 
end of the track and stay together. The reality though, is that twin 8s 
hit with 2000 amps each, make way more torque than a single 11 inch, 
like I used to have in White Zombie...way more! A single 13 inch 
probably makes more torque than a pair of 8s, but it could no way hit 
the same rpm at the far end of the track, so it would have to be geared 
higher to hit the same mph (at a lower and safe rpm) at the far end. 
With taller gears to get that high mph at the far end, it will then take 
all that extra torque the 13 inch makes to still get a good launch at 
the line to match what the lower torque of the Siamese 8 accomplishes 
into a lower lower gear setup. On the surface then, it seems a single 13 
inch with tall gears 'could' match the twin 8s with lower gears, but 
there's a bit more to this. At least for me, my 13 inch motor I have 
awaiting a drag project weighs in at a hefty 390 lbs.! The Siamese 8 
weighs 225 lbs....and that includes its heavy duty mounting system's 
weight...advantage Siamese 8! Next, there's that little thing called 
counter EMF. With the Siamese 8, as the counter EMF rises with rpm and 
backs down the current the motors pull during the series mode as each 
motor section only gets half the available voltage of the sagged pack 
under load, the shift-over from series to parallel changes the back EMF 
and doubles the voltage available for each motor section, forcing-in 
more amps and pushing the motors to reach for higher rpms as they also 
make more and more hp. A single large motor without any special winding 
switch-overs within itself cannot change its rising counter EMF and so 
will have a narrower power band it operates in. With the ability to 
series-parallel shift, a Siamesed pair of motors can be held in a very 
wide power band pretty much all the way down the track...advantage 
Siamese 8!

Back to Mike's setup...I'm with him on this, that he'll get far more 
power over a wider power band using twin 9s than he would with a single 13.

>Now you probably missed the discussions as well on two smaller buddy pair 14 AH batteries or one larger 28 AH batteries and what makes more HP per pound, and what is more worth the effort ;-)
>
>
> 
>
Again, a perfect example of Mike doing his homework. I've already been 
there, done that and he knows this. He watched me get a 40% power gain 
by using pairs of 16 ahr batteries to get 1500 amps at ~ 7 volts for a 
27 lb. package, over what I previously tried using single larger 
batteries by the same manufacturer that weighed a bit less at ~ 25 lbs. 
each but were limited to 1000 amps at ~ 6.5 volts. That's being 
smart...that's thinking it out thoroughly, and that along with his motor 
choices, is what will get his Pinto into the low 12s-high 11s!


From Dan:

>>maybe ask Wayland why he did. maybe because bigger wasn't available 
>>at the time. 
>>

Dan, not to beat you up too badly here, but it seems you're the one who 
has not been thorough here. All of this has been available to read at my 
web page's 'White Zombie History' for some time now. I know Mike checks 
it out all the time...do you? My switch from a single large motor down 
to the two 8s is well documented. Why are you not aware of this? I 
'did' have room for a larger motor and indeed, went that direction 
first. I had great success with it, too. It was only after I fried the 
11 inch Kostov, that I tried the twin motor setup. Going from the single 
11 inch motor (a very large motor for a little Datsun 1200) to the twin 
8s with no other changes..same battery pack, same controller, same 
tires...immediately dropped the 1/4 mile ET by a full 1/2 second. More 
importantly, the twin 8s went quicker than the 11, even though the gear 
ratio had been optimized for the 11 inch motor and it was not optimal 
for the higher revving 8s...and that was with the motors hard wired in 
series - it was also before I even came up with series/parallel 
shifting! The rest as they say, is history.

>>I heard a story about a woman who cut off both ends of a roast 
>>before putting it in a pot, she didn't know why, just that her mother did 
>>it like that. she then called her mother and she said it was because 
>>she didn't have a pot big enough to fit it whole..
>> 
>>

This is perhaps your best argument. There are indeed, times where 
something will simply not fit, so you do what you have to. Twin 9's end 
to end (at least before we came up with the Siamese idea) would not fit 
in my little car...the twin shorter 8s just barely fit. Today, Jim could 
build me a Siamese 9 that I 'think' could be shoehorned into the car. 
Quite frankly however, I'm getting so much power from the current 
Siamese 8, that at least in the light weight lithium version, the car 
was severely traction limited. We are currently planning the new mods 
that should make the planned light weight lithium car handle the huge 
amount of power that the Siamese 8 already makes, with an all new 4 link 
rear end setup, flaired rear fenders, wider wheels, and fatter traction 
tires - maybe even real drag slicks (Pro Street allows slicks).

See Ya.....John Wayland

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Dan you guess wrong. And if you haven't thought it through then the claim that smaller motors are better would be dubious to you.

But I have thought about it quite a bit...for over a year now.
I've discussed it with others who have done the two motor thing (and have thought about it quite a bit too)...on list and off list.
Those folks have also commented and talked about it on this list.
I've talked to the manufacturer as well and got their inputs.
The manufacturer has also posted some (albeit minimal) info on this list and certainly more directly to me and others who have done this. There are specs a manufacturer will publish officially. And there are limits to which a motor will take before throwing the commutators. Those numbers are not necessarily the same. And in this case I was told they are not. So...according the manufacturer they are the same, but unofficially and according to simple calculation in physics I can say that for the same RPM the stresses on the comms and coils will be less for a smaller diameter motor. And that for the same failure mode stress levels the RPM for the smaller motor will be higher.

We are not talking about massive improvements one way or the other. But when you are talking about thousandths of seconds in time difference to win a race or a record because one design has 5% more torque per amp, or 1000 extra RPM before comm failure, then you really have to consider exactly what the benefits can get you. Even if it means doing some extra work, thats what you do to win.

As Jim has said many times on this list, none of us really know exactly what is better. But in terms of his experience and "real world data" on machines people are experimenting with now I would tend to lean toward the more brush the better. The 11" might have bigger brushes, but they are not twice the area? And Jim would have to comment because I did not look up this detail with Netgain, but the brush leads on the 11" are probably the same as the ones they put on the 9". So, like you said, with all else being equal, I would say twice the brush lead will handle twice the current.

With all that said, if someone told me they wanted to build a daily driver and were trying to decide between 1 big or 2 smaller motors. I would say the simplest would be the best which would be 1 big motor unless you absolutely didn't have the room. And in that case two inline motors if you can fit them, and barring that then two parallel motors. But if you're racing you'll want to think about it a lot and take whatever % improvement you can.

Now you probably missed the discussions as well on two smaller buddy pair 14 AH batteries or one larger 28 AH batteries and what makes more HP per pound, and what is more worth the effort ;-)

Mike





----- Original Message -----
From: Dan Frederiksen <[email protected]>
Date: Friday, January 25, 2008 10:57 am
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Siamese EV Motors
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <[email protected]>

> I really haven't thought it through, but I'm guessing neither have 
> you.the claim that smaller motors have higher rpm seems dubious to 
> me. 
> netgain for instance lists all their motors as 5500rpm. from 8 to 13".
> also that the number of brushes should matter since the brushes for 
> the 
> larger motor is hopefully made for its size
> 
> what I could imagine though is that two smaller ones in parallel 
> could 
> have higher current capability if the wires of the larger one was 
> not 
> significantly bigger. that is to say what voltage it's made for. if 
> all 
> of them are of same voltage I figure the big guy should have 
> suitably 
> higher current capability too.
> 
> all things being equal I would reallty avoid building a new custom 
> motor 
> out of two rather than using one larger. I trust you would not 
> combine 8 
> 3" motors rather than use one larger either.
> in other words you should really know why you combine two rather 
> than 
> use one larger.
> 
> maybe ask Wayland why he did. maybe because bigger wasn't available 
> at 
> the time.
> 
> I heard a story about a woman who cut off both ends of a roast 
> before 
> putting it in a pot, she didn't know why, just that her mother did 
> it 
> like that. she then called her mother and she said it was because 
> she 
> didn't have a pot big enough to fit it whole..
> 
> Dan
> 
> _______________________________________________
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> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
> 

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> -----Original Message-----


> > Dave Cover wrote:
> > ....
> >Everyone can build a semi-siamese
> > right now without swamping Jims shop.
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Hey Dave, I did think about that whole running one motor if I had to thing.
(See Dan I did think about it a little ;-) It will work if you fry the
front motor as the rear motor still has the splined drive shaft and 1350
slip yoke to drive the rear end. If I wanted to use the front motor while
the rear one was out I would have to build me a Taper-Lok adaptor to a yoke
connector to couple directly to the drive shaft. Ultimately I would want to
have one of those thingies on had *before* any problems.

I talked to some CE's who didn't tell me much, but did lend me their
'Statics And Strengths of Materials' text books to evaluate the stiffness of
those rails. I like a silly EE threw away all my minor courses of study
text books, although I use the info as much as I use my electrical
background. Anyway 2" channel with 3/16 walls is pretty stout. And I now
have 6 points of attachment to the motors. (two are in the original motor
mount position, two are directly up from the front end cross member and the
other two are the stock tranny cross member where they contact the TH400
shorty tail shaft housing. I am more confident now that I have picked up
the tail shaft housing mounts that those babies aren't going anywhere but
down the track ;-)

No offense to any of Jims work, but those rails will spank those motors
hiney sides all the way home; although they aren't as pretty. I'm sure they
are going to hold up just fine, and they will surely have to.

We will see though 



> > Dave cover wrote:
> >
> >
> > I would also expect your configuration is more practical for swapping
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

One thing to remember if you do this. You need to know what your adaptor p=
late is ahead of time, unless you are fabricating it yourself. The one I o=
rdered has 4 bolts which means I have 4 options (all at 90 deg. from each o=
ther) as to how I can mount my motor. You will have to make sure that any =
holes in the motor case are lined up properly to work with your adaptor pla=
te. Of course this is only the case if you are keeping the transmission.

damon
>
> Still, if you are thinking of running a motor through Jim's shop I'd pay =
the
> extra to have the side mounting holes sunk in. It really opens up the
> mounting options to things you can make with straight pieces of channel a=
nd
> angle.
>
> Mike

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