# [EVDL] Breakers



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

I have a 1000 amp Logisystems controller. I also have an airpax breaker that I bought from Electo Automotive. I have never experienced a nuissance trip with this setup, but it did break the circuit a few years back when running an Alltrax 72v 400 amp controller which failed shorted. It's hard to simulate a failure, but in my case, when I did have a real failure it worked exactly as planned. It worked so well, that I thought it might be a nuissance trip so I reset the breaker and turned my key on. It tripped a second time as soon as the controller was connected and that is when I knew the controller was done. The whole scenario was very unspectaculer which is exaclty what you are striving for  If I were you I would do what you need to do to keep the breaker.



damon

> Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2010 11:36:16 -0500
> From: [email protected]
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: [EVDL] Breakers
> 
> I just tried a single pole Airpax breaker and find it trips after only 
> a couple of seconds of about 400 amps. Not really satisfactory for a 
> battery that can delivery about 800 amps continuously and a 1000 amp 
> controller.
> 
> Rather than add additional poles (space is tight) I'm thinking of just 
> dispensing with the breaker and relying on the internal contactors of 
> the EVNetics controller.
> 
> Perhaps the EVNetics guy will comment?
> 
> BTW, the EVNetics site:
> http://evnetics.com
> seems to have disappeared.
> 
> -- 
> Willie, ONWARD! Through the fog!
> http://counter.li.org Linux registered user #228836 since 1995
> Debian3.1/GNU/Linux system uptime 138 days 5 hours 26 minutes
> 
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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

What is the model number of the AirPax Breaker? Also what is your vehicle
and most demanding use? There are many sizes and configurations with
various delay curves so a solution should be easy to put together.

Sincerely,

Wistar Rhoads
KTA Services, Inc.
www.kta-ev.com
20330 Rancho Villa Road
Ramona, CA 92065
760-787-0896
760-787-9437 (Fax)


-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf
Of Willie McKemie
Sent: Tuesday, July 27, 2010 9:36 AM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: [EVDL] Breakers

I just tried a single pole Airpax breaker and find it trips after only 
a couple of seconds of about 400 amps. Not really satisfactory for a 
battery that can delivery about 800 amps continuously and a 1000 amp 
controller.

Rather than add additional poles (space is tight) I'm thinking of just 
dispensing with the breaker and relying on the internal contactors of 
the EVNetics controller.

Perhaps the EVNetics guy will comment?

BTW, the EVNetics site:
http://evnetics.com
seems to have disappeared.

-- 
Willie, ONWARD! Through the fog!
http://counter.li.org Linux registered user #228836 since 1995
Debian3.1/GNU/Linux system uptime 138 days 5 hours 26 minutes

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----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

How come your battery ampere is so high? The motor ampere may be that high, 
but the battery ampere should be lower.

For example on my 7200 lb EV battery ampere for all my city driving is from 
5 to 50 amperage of speeds from 5 mph to 40 mph constant speed in a overall 
gear ratio of 19:1 to 13:1

If I want to accelerated as fast as I can, the battery ampere gets up to 200 
amps while the motor amperes gets up to 600 amps.

In final drive of 5.57:1 at speeds from 40 mph to 70 mph, my battery ampere 
goes from 75 to just over 200 amperes and the motor amperage ranges from 200 
amperes to 600 amperes.

I do not use a breaker, I have use a Bussman Limitron 400 amp fuse that has 
a interrupting rating of 250,000 amperes. I ran this fuse from 1975 to 
2002. In 2002, I change it out to a Bussman Semi Conductor 400 ampere fuse 
that has a interrupting rating of 7000 amperes.

Roland




----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Willie McKemie" <[email protected]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, July 27, 2010 9:36 AM
Subject: [EVDL] Breakers


> I just tried a single pole Airpax breaker and find it trips after only
> a couple of seconds of about 400 amps. Not really satisfactory for a
> battery that can delivery about 800 amps continuously and a 1000 amp
> controller.
>
> Rather than add additional poles (space is tight) I'm thinking of just
> dispensing with the breaker and relying on the internal contactors of
> the EVNetics controller.
>
> Perhaps the EVNetics guy will comment?
>
> BTW, the EVNetics site:
> http://evnetics.com
> seems to have disappeared.
>
> -- 
> Willie, ONWARD! Through the fog!
> http://counter.li.org Linux registered user #228836 since 1995
> Debian3.1/GNU/Linux system uptime 138 days 5 hours 26 minutes
>
> _______________________________________________
> | REPLYING: address your message to [email protected] only.
> | Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
> | UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> | OTHER HELP: http://evdl.org/help/
> | OPTIONS: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
> 

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----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Roland Wiench wrote:
> > How come your battery ampere is so high? The motor ampere may be that high,
> > but the battery ampere should be lower.
> 
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Willie McKemie-3 wrote:
> >
> > I just tried a single pole Airpax breaker and find it trips after only
> > a couple of seconds of about 400 amps. Not really satisfactory for a
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> > Willie McKemie-3 wrote:
> >>
> >> BTW, the EVNetics site:
> >> http://evnetics.com
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Willie McKemie-3 wrote:
> >>> the EVNetics site http://evnetics.com seems to have disappeared.
> 
> Jeff wrote:
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Jeffrey Jenkins wrote:
> > Willie McKemie-3 wrote:
> > >
> > > BTW, the EVNetics site:
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Your objections have been duly noted. We will hire someone to redo the
website so you can once again access it with Netscape Navigator and Lynx
from a DOS box!






-- 
View this message in context: http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/Breakers-tp2303754p2304290.html
Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Love it. It's been a long while since I've used Lynx.

On Tue, Jul 27, 2010 at 7:30 PM, Jeffrey Jenkins


> <[email protected]>wrote:
> 
> >
> > Your objections have been duly noted. We will hire someone to redo the
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> On 27 Jul 2010 at 17:30, Jeffrey Jenkins wrote:
> 
> > We will hire someone to redo the website so you can once again access
> > it with Netscape Navigator and Lynx from a DOS box!
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Jeffrey Jenkins wrote:
> >
> > Your objections have been duly noted. We will hire someone to redo the
> > website so you can once again access it with Netscape Navigator and Lynx
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

EVDL Administrator wrote:
> 
> Good web design (aargh, there's that term) suggests websites that degrade 
> fairly gracefully with older browsers.
> 

You are entirely correct, it's just that making a website degrade gracefully
seems to require knowing HTML inside and out; sadly, none of us at Evnetics
possess this knowledge (and even if we did we probably wouldn't have the
time to employ it anyway). It was our mechanical engineer who took it upon
himself to re-do our website several months ago in his "spare time";
something that was possible only because Wix made it very quick and easy!



Willie McKemie-3 wrote:
> 
>


> Jeffrey Jenkins wrote:
> >>
> >> Your objections have been duly noted. We will hire someone to redo the
> >> website so you can once again access it with Netscape Navigator and Lynx
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Content management systems like Xoops <http://www.xoops.org/> make it easy
to manage you content and are fairly easy to set up.

I kinda like your site.



Grant
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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Jeffrey Jenkins wrote:
> >> We will hire someone to redo the website so you can once again access
> >> it with Netscape Navigator and Lynx from a DOS box!
> 
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Ok, enough of the whining everyone. You want the whole world to change the way they transport themselves around by moving from petroleum to electricity, yet the internet should cater to comparitively stone age standards just so you don't have to buy a new computer or upgrade a browser? Give me a break.

I personally have no problems with the way their website is setup. Feel free to leave it the way it is as far as I'm concerned. Continue to focus on your great controllers and anyone who really wants to get to the site will. Redoing your website so people can see it on their iPhone is going to sell exactly 0 more controllers for you. I was talking to "Mrs." Husted at the track Friday night and she mentioned specifically how pleased her husband Jim and his partner Eric were with how well you treat them as a distributor. That's the right approach and where you are likely to make money, not from these looky loos with their iPhones.

damon

> Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2010 10:30:52 -0500
> From: [email protected]
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Breakers
> 


> > Jeffrey Jenkins wrote:
> > >> We will hire someone to redo the website so you can once again access
> > >> it with Netscape Navigator and Lynx from a DOS box!
> >
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

It's not just the I-phone that has trouble with Flash. Any cell phone
that does Internet, but is not a smart phone will have trouble. My
Samsung Eternity does not do Flash at all. Many sites detect when
you're accessing with a cell phone and redirect you to a simply done
mobile site. That's certainly a possibility. Apple hates Flash, so
I-pods and I-pads also do not talk Flash. However, the recent court
ruling allowing people to unlock their phones, etc. to install
"unauthorized" apps may mean that someone will soon write an app for
the I-stuff allowing it to play with Flash.

Dave



> Collin Kidder <[email protected]> wrote:
> > On 7/28/2010 12:02 PM, damon henry wrote:
> >> Ok, enough of the whining everyone. You want the whole world to chang=
> e the way they transport themselves around by moving from petroleum to elec=
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

This is getting off topic, however here is one reason Apple does not like t=
hird party scripting tools operating within its phone (now iPad) OS.

http://www.adobe.com/support/security/bulletins/apsb10-14.html

Flash is a closed and proprietary operating environment and while it has so=
me benefits it leaves them (Apple) and you at the mercy of a third party to=
stay on top of these issues and to get updates out on a timely basis. The=
bugs fixed in this flash release have been around a while and cause proble=
ms even in simple things like PDF documents where clandestine flash applica=
tions can be embedded and operate without your knowledge. Now that we have=
HTML 5 we really don't need flash for the basic visuals it's usually used =
for.

Lawrence

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behal=
f Of Dave Davidson
Sent: Wednesday, July 28, 2010 11:36 AM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Breakers

It's not just the I-phone that has trouble with Flash. Any cell phone
that does Internet, but is not a smart phone will have trouble. My
Samsung Eternity does not do Flash at all. Many sites detect when
you're accessing with a cell phone and redirect you to a simply done
mobile site. That's certainly a possibility. Apple hates Flash, so
I-pods and I-pads also do not talk Flash. However, the recent court
ruling allowing people to unlock their phones, etc. to install
"unauthorized" apps may mean that someone will soon write an app for
the I-stuff allowing it to play with Flash.

Dave



> Collin Kidder <[email protected]> wrote:
> > On 7/28/2010 12:02 PM, damon henry wrote:
> >> Ok, enough of the whining everyone. You want the whole world to chang=
> e the way they transport themselves around by moving from petroleum to elec=
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Lee Hart wrote:
> >
> > I agree. I'm having trouble with a 1 GHz Pentium III running Win2k with
> > the Firefox browser on a DSL connection. It won't work at all with my
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Jeffry,
Careful you don't start falling into that big OEM mentality too early ;-) I can afford a Soliton, but I am not going to go out and
pay for a new $300 computer right now. My old beast works fine for what I need to do. Your site isn't the only one that exhibits
these problems though. Just like I will not do business with a company who will not ship a package USPS, I cannot place an order
with a company that I cannot get to on their website. Makes me no difference though, I can look around........ I don't yet need
another controller right now... but hey, one day I might.... Just sayin ;-)

Mike

> -----Original Message-----
> From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Jeffrey Jenkins
> Sent: Wednesday, July 28, 2010 2:46 PM
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Breakers
> 
> 
> 


> > Lee Hart wrote:
> > >
> > > I agree. I'm having trouble with a 1 GHz Pentium III running Win2k with
> > > the Firefox browser on a DSL connection. It won't work at all with my
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

I'm one of those people who the phone and cable companies deem not suitable
for bringing high speed internet to because it's too far away from a major
metro area. I have satellite, but it's still far slower than DSL.... that
being said, the website works on my computer (an apple, because windows
sucks...) but it's not really clear from the website what exactly evnetics
is selling.... it's an EV controller, but is it for series motors, sepex
motors, AC motors?? That's the type of stuff that I'd like to see more
easily accessible.

Z

On Wed, Jul 28, 2010 at 1:29 PM, Harris, Lawrence <


> [email protected]> wrote:
> 
> > This is getting off topic, however here is one reason Apple does not like
> > third party scripting tools operating within its phone (now iPad) OS.
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Oh come on Mike. I saw you hangin with Jim Husted this weekend and he is a distributor. Are you telling me that you would not hand your money to Jim and have him hand you one of these beautiful controllers just because their website requires flash? I find that hard to believe. Now if you told me that your blood runs Zilla green and you are sticking with Otmar's creation that's a story I can swallow... 


damon

> From: [email protected]
> To: [email protected]
> Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2010 14:53:54 -0700
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Breakers
> 
> Jeffry,
> Careful you don't start falling into that big OEM mentality too early ;-) I can afford a Soliton, but I am not going to go out and
> pay for a new $300 computer right now. My old beast works fine for what I need to do. Your site isn't the only one that exhibits
> these problems though. Just like I will not do business with a company who will not ship a package USPS, I cannot place an order
> with a company that I cannot get to on their website. Makes me no difference though, I can look around........ I don't yet need
> another controller right now... but hey, one day I might.... Just sayin ;-)
> 
> Mike
> 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Jeffrey Jenkins
> > Sent: Wednesday, July 28, 2010 2:46 PM
> > To: [email protected]
> > Subject: Re: [EVDL] Breakers
> > 
> > 
> > 


> > > Lee Hart wrote:
> > > >
> > > > I agree. I'm having trouble with a 1 GHz Pentium III running Win2k with
> > > > the Firefox browser on a DSL connection. It won't work at all with my
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Hey Damon-
Are you saying Jim Husted now makes controllers (new to me)---or are you
confusing Jim with someone else?
-Myles

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf
Of damon henry
Sent: Wednesday, July 28, 2010 3:59 PM
To: EV List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Breakers


Oh come on Mike. I saw you hangin with Jim Husted this weekend and he is a
distributor. Are you telling me that you would not hand your money to Jim
and have him hand you one of these beautiful controllers just because their
website requires flash? I find that hard to believe. Now if you told me
that your blood runs Zilla green and you are sticking with Otmar's creation
that's a story I can swallow... 


damon

> From: [email protected]
> To: [email protected]
> Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2010 14:53:54 -0700
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Breakers
> 
> Jeffry,
> Careful you don't start falling into that big OEM mentality too early ;-)
I can afford a Soliton, but I am not going to go out and
> pay for a new $300 computer right now. My old beast works fine for what I
need to do. Your site isn't the only one that exhibits
> these problems though. Just like I will not do business with a company who
will not ship a package USPS, I cannot place an order
> with a company that I cannot get to on their website. Makes me no
difference though, I can look around........ I don't yet need
> another controller right now... but hey, one day I might.... Just sayin
;-)
> 
> Mike
> 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On
Behalf Of Jeffrey Jenkins
> > Sent: Wednesday, July 28, 2010 2:46 PM
> > To: [email protected]
> > Subject: Re: [EVDL] Breakers
> > 
> > 
> > 


> > > Lee Hart wrote:
> > > >
> > > > I agree. I'm having trouble with a 1 GHz Pentium III running Win2k
> with
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

His new company Jimerico supplies EV parts beyond just motors including the controller being discussed.
http://www.jimerico.net/

damon

> From: [email protected]
> To: [email protected]
> Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2010 16:40:33 -0700
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Breakers
> 
> Hey Damon-
> Are you saying Jim Husted now makes controllers (new to me)---or are you
> confusing Jim with someone else?
> -Myles
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf
> Of damon henry
> Sent: Wednesday, July 28, 2010 3:59 PM
> To: EV List
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Breakers
> 
> 
> Oh come on Mike. I saw you hangin with Jim Husted this weekend and he is a
> distributor. Are you telling me that you would not hand your money to Jim
> and have him hand you one of these beautiful controllers just because their
> website requires flash? I find that hard to believe. Now if you told me
> that your blood runs Zilla green and you are sticking with Otmar's creation
> that's a story I can swallow... 
> 
> 
> damon
> 
> > From: [email protected]
> > To: [email protected]
> > Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2010 14:53:54 -0700
> > Subject: Re: [EVDL] Breakers
> > 
> > Jeffry,
> > Careful you don't start falling into that big OEM mentality too early ;-)
> I can afford a Soliton, but I am not going to go out and
> > pay for a new $300 computer right now. My old beast works fine for what I
> need to do. Your site isn't the only one that exhibits
> > these problems though. Just like I will not do business with a company who
> will not ship a package USPS, I cannot place an order
> > with a company that I cannot get to on their website. Makes me no
> difference though, I can look around........ I don't yet need
> > another controller right now... but hey, one day I might.... Just sayin
> ;-)
> > 
> > Mike
> > 
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On
> Behalf Of Jeffrey Jenkins
> > > Sent: Wednesday, July 28, 2010 2:46 PM
> > > To: [email protected]
> > > Subject: Re: [EVDL] Breakers
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 


> > > > Lee Hart wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > I agree. I'm having trouble with a 1 GHz Pentium III running Win2k
> > with
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> > On 27 Jul 2010 at 17:30, Jeffrey Jenkins wrote:
> >
> >> > We will hire someone to redo the website so you can once again access
> >> > it with Netscape Navigator and Lynx from a DOS box!
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Yes I hang with Jim. He puts on an awesome Murder Mystery Dinner Party. Wanna come to the next one , heh heh ;-)

I would hand my money to Jim and I have in the past for what he know's about. Yes Jim may be a dealer for Soliton's. But Jim can't
prove to me they are better than my Zilla, or even suggest why I should switch. And where am I going to learn about the product's
virtues? (No digs Jim, or for the controller for that matter). I have to do it through the manufacturer.

But the fact is that I am a consumer. I am actually a professional consumer. I have evaluated products from billion dollar
companies that vie for my acceptance of their products. I have turned away several hundred thousand dollar orders because a company
would not ship to my specifications. I have been turned away by (likely viable) products because a website could not convey to me
the specifications I needed. Or in the process of verifying those specs got the run around through an engineering department phone
tree pushing 1 for this or 2 for that, then getting forwarded to a department that didn't even know what an engineer was...you have
all been there right? Banks are the worst offenders of the phone tree.

I think it is arrogant for a company to rely on its website or its phone tree to make sure customers get the information they want,
and somehow blame it on the customer if they cannot find the information they want. 18 years doing this and I don't play that game.
Give me an advertisement in Spanish and you can guess where it will go, even if I can read it.

So my point is that, although I do not really have a problem with internet connectivity, or the technology to read flash site, as a
matter of principle I do not like to have to rely on it. I do not accept that from my bank or my investment companies that give me
online access to my money. I want to be able to reach my account info from my smart phone without having to worry about if my phone
will do flash or not. After all I am the consumer and I can find a bank that will cater to my needs.

I am not saying this to harsh on anyone. I am hoping that it is taken as constructive criticism. I used to get paid a lot of money
to provide constructive criticism because in a very short time things that seem inconvenient to address can make a big difference in
the bottom line $$. (I just wish I could find those people again right now ;-)

As of right now, since I'm not working I cannot justify buying anything new for the EV's. Since my last sponsorship for lithium
batteries fell through I think the next thing I will buy is those batteries. That headway pack that was donated by another that
will remain nameless, now costs less than the lead acid pack I have in the Pinto right now. So the first upgrades will be
batteries. But the next one might be a controller. And now due to the Zilla vacuum there are choices. 

Does my blood boil Zilla Green? Yes, for now it does. I haven't seen a record setting Soliton in the ranks of the NEDRA record
books yet. Now if they wanted to get there I am totally open for sponsorship. But I am otherwise willing to get there on my own in
choosing the best I can find...........and that should be the point here.

Maybe I have a record setting car in need of a good controller, and maybe I am still running Window's '98 which is still to this day
the most stable platform I have had since I left Mac when I was in college. If this POS Vista machine dies that I have guess where
I'm going ;-) Its bad enough when the computer manufacturers drive you to buying a new computer every 2 years. I'll be damned if
the folks I buy products from do the same.

Its not that I am technically challenged, or computer illiterate, or even challenged by all the new technology coming out, but don't
assume that I am not, because its easy to see. Those assumptions turn me off like Jeff Shanab stated in his later post on this list


Mike 





> -----Original Message-----
> From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of damon henry
> Sent: Wednesday, July 28, 2010 3:59 PM
> To: EV List
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Breakers
> 
> 
> Oh come on Mike. I saw you hangin with Jim Husted this weekend and he is a distributor. Are you telling me that
> you would not hand your money to Jim and have him hand you one of these beautiful controllers just because their
> website requires flash? I find that hard to believe. Now if you told me that your blood runs Zilla green and you are
> sticking with Otmar's creation that's a story I can swallow...
> 
> 
> damon
> 
> > From: [email protected]
> > To: [email protected]
> > Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2010 14:53:54 -0700
> > Subject: Re: [EVDL] Breakers
> >
> > Jeffry,
> > Careful you don't start falling into that big OEM mentality too early ;-) I can afford a Soliton, but I am not going to
> go out and
> > pay for a new $300 computer right now. My old beast works fine for what I need to do. Your site isn't the only one
> that exhibits
> > these problems though. Just like I will not do business with a company who will not ship a package USPS, I
> cannot place an order
> > with a company that I cannot get to on their website. Makes me no difference though, I can look around........ I
> don't yet need
> > another controller right now... but hey, one day I might.... Just sayin ;-)
> >
> > Mike
> >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Jeffrey Jenkins
> > > Sent: Wednesday, July 28, 2010 2:46 PM
> > > To: [email protected]
> > > Subject: Re: [EVDL] Breakers
> > >
> > >
> > >


> > > > Lee Hart wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > I agree. I'm having trouble with a 1 GHz Pentium III running Win2k with
> > > > > the Firefox browser on a DSL connection. It won't work at all with my
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> damon henry wrote:
> >
> >
> > Oh come on Mike. I saw you hangin with Jim Husted this weekend and he is
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Lets have a bit of fun with the following sentance :

> It's not my problem or yours or the web site owners that Apple have decided to not support GASOLINE/WINDOWS even though it's used everywhere.
> That's just a problem for people silly enough to actually use INTERNAL COMBUSTION/WINDOWS.
> 
> I have nothing against flash. It's silly to hate it. It's got uses and it's got abuses. It can be used as a platform agnostic web rendering engine. Otherwise websites have to deal with the various incompatibilities of IE and FF and Opera, etc, etc. There are downsides to flash but blindly blocking all flash content is like shooting a mosquito with a machine gun. The evnetics website looks very nice and I don't care whether they used flash, HTML, or dead kittens. It looks great.
> 

The last paragraph gets to the point. "It's got uses and it's got abuses."

In general it has been accepted as a 'use' to use as a container for multimedia.

It is seen as an 'abuse' to toss away all standards and use it as a proprietary web page language without providing a fallback to
HTML. Even the early flash development guides recommend having html fallback. (why it cannot generate that with the rest of the page
is a good question.)

The real problem is the abuses are outnumbering the uses and people are blocking flash.(those abuses being evasive ads and problems
with more than one flash animation on a single web page. which why putting the whole site in flash was created)

Ironically, there is a big push to go to html5 which they feel will eliminate much of the need for flash. The biggest pusher of this
is Google. Youtube is busy converting their videos from flash to html5, the tipping point is near and this will be a problem for
people with old browsers. Becasue it is a new standard, and not just a plugin, the browser will have to be upgraded. While
upgradeing could just as easily mean less cpu needed and less memory needed, it seldom does :-(

So the "fallback" for html5 pages and browsers that cannot handle it...flash. But flash as a video container.

The microsoft proprietary eqiv to flash is silverlight. each require their own plugin. There are more of these but those are the
biggest two. We went thru this thiasco with video codecs, How many do you have on your computer? 200-300


Maybe html5 becomes the j1772 of the multimedia web protocols.

Flash shot themself in the foot when they tried to be everything and made it so each new version of flash generated flash that could
not be played by earlier versions.(part of this was to break non macromedia players)

"If you have to ask what browser or what OS, you missed the entire point of the internet."


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Oh come on Mike. I saw you hangin with Jim Husted this weekend and he is a distributor. Are you telling me that you would not hand your money to Jim and have him hand you one of these beautiful controllers just because their website requires flash? I find that hard to believe. Now if you told me that your blood runs Zilla green and you are sticking with Otmar's creation that's a story I can swallow... 
> 
> 
> damon

You are missing it. A person does not know what they don't see. so if it doesn't display, times out, or they move on because they
are tired of waiting, the seller looses too.

So use flash for the fancy effects, but never block basic content and navigation!


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

I think Flash's days are probably numbered. This writer is correct on every
count. The search/link problem is a deal-breaker for serious sites including
ours. Apple does not and will not support Flash on its mobile platforms.
HTML5 can do everything Flash can do and is searchable, too. Flash has its
attributes, but driving a Web site is not one of them.

The above is in response to the article listed below about FLASH. I agree
and Flash has been trouble from the very beginning. 





............but she sure hit the nail on the head about flash.

http://ezinearticles.com/?Flash-Animation---A-Great-Way-to-Ward-Off-Visitors-and-Lower-Search-Engine-Rankings&id=1501829

-----
If you don't understand, be patient, you will. Now I understand. 
-- 
View this message in context: http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/Breakers-tp2303754p2306653.html
Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

_______________________________________________
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----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Just another viewpoint I didn't see in your post: A couple of local-to-me EVers 
did know about and consider an EVnetics controller, but didn't buy it because 
they said it cost as much as the Zilla. If the price was significantly less than 
Zilla one of them for sure, possibly both, would have bought EVnetics instead.




________________________________
From: Jeffrey Jenkins <[email protected]>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Thu, July 29, 2010 5:54:47 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Breakers

... Despite the Soliton1 being available for nearly one year, there has been an 
almost willful ignorance among the EVDL community about us. ...

... but the overwhelming reason seems to be a near fanatical loyalty to the 
Zilla. 


Don't get me wrong - I completely understand that the Zilla *earned* that 
loyalty, especially given the number of controller companies that have bitten 
the dust over the last decade!

But if you want to see the EV state of the art progress you have to support the 
new kids on the block! To develop a new product costs money; if no one
buys the new product then there's no incentive to develop any other ones, is 
there? Granted, I am definitely "talking my book" here, but it's still true. As 
of my last count there are only two active EVDL members that run a Soliton1 in 
their EV! Nearly one year later and there are only two!?!

I'll admit this has been very frustrating for me, but I cling to the belief - 
perhaps naively - that the world really will beat a path to your door if you 
build a better "mousetrap". 


That's what we tried to do with the Soliton1: not just make an imitation of a 
controller that was no longer available, rather, make a controller that improved 
the state of the art in all aspects! I personally think we succeeded wildly, but 
I'll grant you that I'm not exactly unbiased! 

...

Jeffrey Jenkins
Hardware Design Engineer - Evnetics, LLC.
And though it sucks, http://www.evnetics.com/



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----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> EVDL Administrator <[email protected]> wrote:
> > On 27 Jul 2010 at 17:30, Jeffrey Jenkins wrote:
> >
> >> We will hire someone to redo the website so you can once again access
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

It's the economy. Seriously. I would be trying one in my 2nd conversion, a drag racing PU If i had the time and money.
But I have managed to get laid off and the most active job possibility is in *cough* chicago.

My funds are tied.

But another thing I wonder about is the price of DC motors. They are ridiculus. I don't mean to sound negative, but with the
increase in road going EV conversions, the price should of dropped, not increased. And no one except Jim is doing somthing to make
them better. I got a quote once for better commutators. I was thinking of sending them to Jim with other motor parts to get a super
motor built for drag racing.

This increase in DC series motor costs is probably driving people to AC.

PS When is your AC controller coming out? 


> 


> > damon henry wrote:
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > Oh come on Mike. I saw you hangin with Jim Husted this weekend and he is
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Hello folks, first post by me on this list. I'm that bloke that writes 
the software for the Soliton and I feel a strong urge to add my two 
cents to this discussion thread that has derailed in a way that only an 
online discussion has the potential to do. So I thought I'd increase the 
heat from "simmer" to "boiling", just in good fun of course. 

> One major attraction of your controller is it's web server
> configuration. Configurable with most any browser under most any
> operating system. Kudos. Please don't consider "upgrading" it to use
> flash!

Ok, time to clear things up. I know that there's so called embedded 
systems that are PC-based and that some people consider for example 
Windows CE an embedded OS, but I'm not one of those. The software in the 
Soliton is carefully crafted to minimize the risk for problems, for 
example there's exactly two mallocs in the code. One is used for 
verifying that the controller isn't running out of RAM (it's a dummy 
allocation to get the heap pointer), it has never happened that the 
controller has run out of RAM except when I've forced it to, but that 
safety trigger's still there to avoid that the heap and the stack 
collides since that would result in an unpredictable, potentially 
dangerous behavior. The other is used at software upgrade since I don't 
want to hog RAM for an upgrade that will only happen a few times, and 
since the microcontroller allocates close to all the free RAM during 
upgrade to speed things up as much as possible is the reason why the 
contactors are disengaged at upgrade; I don't want to take any risks. 
ALL other memory allocations are done static to avoid fragmentation of 
RAM or other nasty surprises...

Even though the computal power of the Soliton beat the Apollo Guidance 
Computer it's still making Lee's old 300 MHz PII look like a super 
computer. The whole idea with embedded systems is that it should be 
small, simple and reliable (where Windows is none in my book) and one of 
the methods of achieving that is to keep the code base small. Therefore 
the flash memory (the secondary storage, ie the same role as the hard 
disk in a PC) is rather limited and, to pun it a bit, there's simply not 
enough flash for Flash.

> Flash is a closed and proprietary operating environment[...]

> Flash is a closed and proprietary operating environment[...]

> Am I the kind of customer you want to turn away?

> So my point is that, although I do not really have a problem with 
> internet connectivity, or the technology to read flash site, as a
> matter of principle I do not like to have to rely on it.

> You are missing it. A person does not know what they don't see. so if 
> it doesn't display, times out, or they move on because they
> are tired of waiting, the seller looses too. 

> I've just had a look at your website to see what all the discussion
> was about. I had to go to my main computer (an iMac) to actually see
> it, as it didn't work on the old laptop I use in the garage. 

Guys, please. The message has been received and the horse is dead. 
There's no such thing as a deader horse, so please stop kicking the 
carcass. You're grossing me out here. Eeew...

Yes, the flash only site is a bit ugly and no, my cell phone doesn't 
work as well with the EVnetics site. The problem is that we're just a 
handful of people that's involved with the Soliton and I'm probably the 
only one knowing HTML at all and my knowledge is a bit outdated so even 
if it's enough to give the Soliton a somewhat decent interface for 
setting parameters, setting up a complete web site would mean a lot of 
study time. I simply don't have that time because I'm still having a day 
time work to support me so all the hundreds of hours I've invested in 
the Soliton software (I stopped counting when it went 4 digit, I didn't 
want to know anymore) comes from evenings, weekends and vacations.

Since I don't have the time to set up and update a decent web site I was 
grateful when the mechanical guy offered to do it. Yes, it's a flash 
only site and it's more glossy than informative, but it sure beats a 
site with the text "Coming soon" and an ugly little animated GIF with a 
digging man. Sure, it could definitely be better (duh) but at least it 
IS a web site. We didn't use flash because we thought it'd be cool 
(*shudder*), we did it because it's a CMS on a web hotel that was easy 
to use and didn't had to be installed and configured by us, which was a 
good thing because I simply had more important things to do (like 
writing Soliton software...).

So yes, the web site isn't really top notch, but that's because this is 
not a SourceForge-project that set up a cool project homepage, discuss 
all the cool features and then dies out because it wasn't fun anymore. 
We've gone the other way, we made a kick-ass controller, we're still 
improving it to be even more kick-ass and we're looking at future 
kick-ass projects as well, because that's what we're GOOD at. We should 
have a kick-ass web page too, sure, but in the end there's just not 
enough hours available per day to manage everything. Even if we hire 
someone to do it, it still means it'll take hours planning WHAT kind of 
page we want and how it should look. We'll get there, but in the mean 
time try to bear with us.

We don't hate you, we're just awfully swamped. Ok?

> Flash only is so slow and version dependent, admittedly in 64bit Linux 
> more so because they do not bother to support it (really).

This is a general tip and should not be read as "Do this and you can see 
our flashy site", more like "I'm a Linux nerd too and recognise your 
problem". There's two solution to this problem; one is sticking with an 
old 64-bit plugin and be happy as long as it works, I'm doing that now 
and so far I haven't encountered a flash application that doesn't work. 
The other is to install a 32 bit version of Firefox in your 64-bit 
environment, that's what I used to do before Adobe released a 64-bit 
version of flash to Linux to begin with. After all, Linux can run both 
32 and 64 bit applications in parallel on a 64 bit system, that's how 
for example wine manages to support 32 bit Windows applications in Linux.

> A couple of local-to-me EVers
> did know about and consider an EVnetics controller, but didn't buy it 
> because
> they said it cost as much as the Zilla. If the price was significantly 
> less than
> Zilla one of them for sure, possibly both, would have bought EVnetics 
> instead.

Ok, let me get this straight.

You think that a Soliton 1 capable of up to 342 Volt and 1000 Ampere 
continuously, has built in contactors, can use a potentiometer or hal 
effect pedal as the end user pleases, has a built in web server and that 
provides logs at 10 times higher sample frequency should cost 
significantly less than a Z1K (which Z1K btw?) that's capable of 1000 
Ampere peak, needs to be configured at production time what kind of 
throttle that will be used and uses an arcane serial port interface for 
configuration?

Why?

Don't get me wrong, I don't think the Zilla is a bad controller, in fact 
the reason I even begun working with the EVnetics guys was because the 
Zilla went on hiatus and the Curtis looked rather boring as a 
replacement. But while we started to develop the Soliton we didn't aim 
to replace the Zilla Z1K, we aimed at supersede it. I'm of course biased 
but I personally think we succeeded and thus I really don't see any 
reason why it should be priced "significantly less than Zilla".

/Martin - aka SPD or "Swedish Programming Dude" since some people seem 
to have a tough time remembering names... 

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----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Still Off Topic: As a software developer who has recently been banging my
head against a Flash utility that will do almost but not quite what I
need.... I took the direct approatch.
I wrote to Wix regarding smartphones etc.
I asked if there was a way to add a short bit of plain text (company name,
phone, address) to the "click here to install flash" page.
This is the promising, but not quite fixing it yet, answer they sent:
"Dear Michael Shipway ,

1. The Smartphone industry is a very large market but it doesn???t support
Flash. Wix is a Flash program and we are proud to provide a superior Flash
website design solution.
You can read an article about Iphones and Flash in the future here:
http://techcrunch.com/2010/01/10/flash-developers-iphone/ .

We are happy to announce that we have a dedicated team working to translate
Flash into HTML. We hope that in the near future all of our users can view
their sites on their Smartphones.

As we are in the software business, we are quite aware that we have to
constantly change for a dynamic industry. We already have our eyes set on
adapting to the near release of HTML5!

2. If visitors to your site don't have Flash player installed on their
computer, they will automatically be redirected to a Wix page informing them
that they need to install Flash Player to view your site.
The Wix page will provide them with a link to download the Flash player for
free.
If you require any further assistance please don't hesitate to contact us.

Thanks,

Yael,
Wix Team"
-----------------
They responded quite quickly too.
Perhaps they will consider the stop-gap of including that little bit of
custom non-Flash text.

Mike-








> Jeff Shanab <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> > Lets have a bit of fun with the following sentance :
> >
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Wistar Rhoads wrote:
> > What is the model number of the AirPax Breaker? Also what is your vehicle
> > and most demanding use? There are many sizes and configurations with
> > various delay curves so a solution should be easy to put together.
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

To answer your question, "My ammeter shut is 500 amps; I wonder if it is
inaccurate near it's
limit?" Typical Instrumentation is accurate at +/- 3% of the full scale
value, throughout its range. If an analog meter is the display. If the
display is digital, add +/- one count of the rightmost digit for "Aliasing."
(If you need a higher range, just put a second one in parallel - and no need
to connect the thin wires to the indicator.)
And the next question," I would hope for a breaker that can last a minute or
more at 800 amps." Thermal type breakers do have some "Lag" but actual time
varies with ambient and internal breaker temperature. They are designed to
operate at 80% of rated current, not exactly intended for overload that is
why the specification you are sighting may be way off and require hand
picking one from a box full to get your exact delay.(I would say use a 1,000
Amp. Breaker and let the over-current circuit in that excellent controller
limit the current at 800 A.(If you are going to run such high currents often
or for more than a few seconds, then water cooling is recommended.)
Regards,
Dennis Lee Miles (Director) E.V.T.I. inc.
www.E-V-T-I-Inc.COM (Adviser) EVTI-EVA Education Chapter
Phone (863) 944 - 9913
It=92s estimated that the existing U.S. electrical grid has sufficient
capacity to fully fuel three-quarters of the nation=92s 217 million passeng=
er
vehicles.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------=
-------------------------------------------


> Willie McKemie <[email protected]>wrote:
> 
> > On Tue, Jul 27, 2010 at 09:49:05AM -0700, Wistar Rhoads wrote:
> > > What is the model number of the AirPax Breaker? Also what is your
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

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IG1haWxpbmcgbGlzdCBhcmNoaXZlIGF0IE5hYmJsZS5jb20uCgpfX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19f
X19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fXwp8IFJFUExZSU5HOiBhZGRyZXNzIHlvdXIgbWVz
c2FnZSB0byBldkBsaXN0cy5zanN1LmVkdSBvbmx5Lgp8IE11bHRpcGxlLWFkZHJlc3Mgb3IgQ0Nl
ZCBtZXNzYWdlcyBtYXkgYmUgcmVqZWN0ZWQuCnwgVU5TVUJTQ1JJQkU6IGh0dHA6Ly93d3cuZXZk
bC5vcmcvaGVscC9pbmRleC5odG1sI3VzdWIKfCBPVEhFUiBIRUxQOiBodHRwOi8vZXZkbC5vcmcv
aGVscC8KfCBPUFRJT05TOiBodHRwOi8vbGlzdHMuc2pzdS5lZHUvbWFpbG1hbi9saXN0aW5mby9l
dgo=


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Dennis Miles <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> > Thermal type breakers do have some "Lag" but actual time
> > varies with ambient and internal breaker temperature. They are designed to
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

If anyone wants to read the AirPax literature, it is available at:
http://store.kta-ev.com/Airpax.pdf

Sincerely,

Wistar Rhoads
KTA Services, Inc.
www.kta-ev.com
20330 Rancho Villa Road
Ramona, CA 92065
760-787-0896
760-787-9437 (Fax)



-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf
Of Zeke Yewdall
Sent: Friday, July 30, 2010 5:23 AM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Breakers



> Dennis Miles <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> > Thermal type breakers do have some "Lag" but actual time
> > varies with ambient and internal breaker temperature. They are designed to
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Jeffrey Jenkins wrote:
> > Finally, DC ammeters that use a shunt, rather than a Hall effect sensor,
> > tend to report motor controller battery current as much higher than it
> > really is because the reactance of their stray inductance...
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> On 29 Jul 2010 at 4:54, Jeffrey Jenkins wrote:
> 
> > the Zilla *earned* that loyalty, especially given the number of
> > controller companies that have bitten the dust over the last decade!
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

How did a post or two about breakers turn into a bash on a website?

List mods should nip these kind of things in the bud before they spiral 
so far off topic that the original post gets lost and ppl waiting on 
information and replies to the original message are left on the sideline 
as spectators. It costs nothing and is not hard to post your own message 
(or reply) with an appropriate subject.

Some more detailed info on breakers suitable for high current EVs would 
be great - discussions on website standards and flash are of no use to 
anyone looking for info on breakers.

Leslie

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

On Mon, Aug 02, 2010 at 06:47:49PM +0930, Leslie wrote:
> How did a post or two about breakers turn into a bash on a website?

I am the original poster. The original post contained a relevant side 
question about the EVNetics website. The thread spilt in two early on, 
both of which are of great interest to me. I view the comments on the 
website as being highly constructive rather than bashing.

No one has offered specific breaker suggestions, though.

-- 
Willie, ONWARD! Through the fog!
http://counter.li.org Linux registered user #228836 since 1995
Debian3.1/GNU/Linux system uptime 144 days 1 hours 06 minutes

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Hello Willie,

I was a original responder that suggested fuses. The reason why I choose 
fuses over circuit breakers is the cost of operation under load conditions.

Looking through my circuit breaker catalogs, you need at least a M Frame 
breaker that is rated at 250VDC at 800 amp with a load break interrupting 
ranging from 22 to 65 (ka).

The factory cost ranges from $6735.00 to $8019.00. When tripping under 
load, the overloads can be remove and either recondition or replace.

These M-Frame breaker housing can be converted in a load break switch, 
either by the factory or by the user. If you can find a breaker housing 
from a savage yard or even from a electrical company that had remove or 
replace one, you can remove the overload units and bolt in a fuse in place 
of the overloads.

These type of breaker housing can be remote operated by a motorize or manual 
attachment to the breaker handle. You then have a combination fuse holder 
and emergency shut down unit.

Roland


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Willie McKemie" <[email protected]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, August 02, 2010 5:13 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Breakers


> On Mon, Aug 02, 2010 at 06:47:49PM +0930, Leslie wrote:
> > How did a post or two about breakers turn into a bash on a website?
>
> I am the original poster. The original post contained a relevant side
> question about the EVNetics website. The thread spilt in two early on,
> both of which are of great interest to me. I view the comments on the
> website as being highly constructive rather than bashing.
>
> No one has offered specific breaker suggestions, though.
>
> -- 
> Willie, ONWARD! Through the fog!
> http://counter.li.org Linux registered user #228836 since 1995
> Debian3.1/GNU/Linux system uptime 144 days 1 hours 06 minutes
>
> _______________________________________________
> | REPLYING: address your message to [email protected] only.
> | Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
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> | OPTIONS: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
> 

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Roland Wiench wrote:
> > Hello Willie,
> >
> > I was a original responder that suggested fuses. The reason why I choose
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Before I say anything else, I want to thank you for this post. It was just
all-around excellent.




> EVDL Administrator wrote:
> >
> > ...when Otmar set out to develop a controller, he did
> > much of it in the public eye here on the list. He asked the list members
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Thanks for your follow up post Jeffrey. I'm glad the thread didn't go
completely bad. I didn't realize how much of a stir my FYI comment
about being able to view you web site would make. I was merely trying
to help you reach a larger audience and knew you were busy from
reading DIYEC and thought you might not have noticed the potential
website issues.

I hope you do quite well with your controller business. We all need
many more successful businesses in this country.

-- 
David D. Nelson
http://evalbum.com/1328

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