# Controller for 120kW IPM Motor



## Knotsure (Jan 11, 2011)

I am working on converting a 2001 Porsche Boxster to all electric. I have two AC 120kW Siemens VDO / Continental internal permanent magnet motors and I would like to use one of the motors for my project. The biggest problem I have is finding a controller for the motor. I have just about everything I need to complete the car except for the controller. I tried to make one by upgrading an older Allen Bradley 1336S industrial vector drive but it did not go too well. I know where I went wrong with the drive, but I am unsure that it would even work if I rebuilt it.

Does anyone know where I could maybe buy a controller that would work with the motor I have, or am I stuck with having to develop my own? I know that Rinehart Motion Systems makes a controller that according to their specifications would work. 

I made a complete write up about my project. It is a rather large pdf but it can be viewed at the following link: https://www.onlinefilefolder.com/2sezpPrcC2sKet

Motor Specifications
Transaxle Configuraton
120kW Peak Power to 6723 RPM
75kW Continuous Power to 12,865 RPM
300Nm Peak Torque (Motor)
0-16,000 RPM (Motor)
Max Powered Speed, 85 kW at 12,865 RPM
Liquid-Cooled, 65C 
Compact Integrated Single Ratio Gearbox (8.3:1)
Park Lock Mechanism
2,500 Nm Peak Torque (Gear Box)


----------



## KG_00 (Sep 8, 2009)

http://www.tritium.com.au/products/TRI74/index.html

This is probably one of cheapest options you have and one you can easily purchase. I have worked a little bit with one of these and it rocks so far. Note that this only does 300Arms so you may be limited on torque...

This does 450VDC and 368ADC input and 320VAC and 300Arms output. It weighs ~19lbs, can do up to 100kW continuous and 160kW peak


----------



## tomofreno (Mar 3, 2009)

Just a bit under $8k:
http://vaxosystems.com/store/category/54-inverters.aspx


----------



## PZigouras (Jun 5, 2010)

That motor looks awfully pretty. Looks to be liquid cooled, too.

Do you know what the rated efficiency is? I couldn't find any data on it, but I'm assuming it's at least 90%


----------



## Knotsure (Jan 11, 2011)

Thank you very much for the suggestions, I will be contacting them. 

The motor is liquid cooled and will be a perfect fit for the rear wheel drive Boxster.

I only have very limited specifications for this motor, but I suspect that if it is like other IPM motors it should have a efficiency in the 90% range.


----------



## steven4601 (Nov 11, 2010)

Nice to read the first suggestion was the same as mine.
The wavesculptor requires a minimum motor inductance of 50uH. IPM's are constructionwise very similar to Induction motors, inductance should not be a problem. 

Do you know how much the Siemens / Continental motor goes for? (It is supposedly to be manufactured for the Renault Fluence and possibly many more brands / models).


----------



## CBrune (Nov 12, 2009)

Hello Knotsure,
One correction I would make is that Rinehart has sold units to non OEMs. Jack Rickard is an example. Bob Simpson at EVdrive is another example. That being said it is not easy to support customers who do not have a pretty high level of knowledge about the product.
Also, in my experience it is very difficult to get the optimum performance out of an IPM without tuning the controller specifically to work with it. Generally it is necessary to compile a large table of operating points that are specific to the motor. In your case you mention that you do not have the information for this Continental motor. So it is unclear how a inverter manufacturer can run the motor optimally without obtaining this info.

Regards,
Chris Brune


----------



## Knotsure (Jan 11, 2011)

steven4601 said:


> Nice to read the first suggestion was the same as mine.
> The wavesculptor requires a minimum motor inductance of 50uH. IPM's are constructionwise very similar to Induction motors, inductance should not be a problem.
> 
> Do you know how much the Siemens / Continental motor goes for? (It is supposedly to be manufactured for the Renault Fluence and possibly many more brands / models).


I was told that the motor/controller combo sells for around $80,000. A similar but smaller motor is being used on the Mercedes A-Class E-Cell.


----------



## steven4601 (Nov 11, 2010)

Whow 80k USD? that is not the value, not ever. What was the brand of the inverter combo? 

The renault Fluence is a nice electric car for approx 25k euro! If i am correct, it has also a Continental IPM motor.


----------



## Knotsure (Jan 11, 2011)

Yeah, I thought that number was a bit off, but that is what the Continental sales guy told me. He told me I had quite a find. Supposedly this model motor in limited production so that may factor in to why the price is so high, but I don't know.


----------



## steven4601 (Nov 11, 2010)

If you look closely, you have a prototype version, not the production model. Prototype prices are sometimes derrived from development costs divided by the amount of units made in the proto batch. This price can be quite a giggle 

As for example, Tesla had their 50 million dollar Roadster a few years ago. Now things have scaled up, its all back into normal perspective. The model S is so well priced that im putting question marks on my own DIY attempt.... Why invest so much money in a diy roadster or two seater where you can buy a (quicker) sports saloon with more range for (only) almost twice as much with a high(er) return to market value which will probably cost less then converting and owning a DIY for a few years.... 

I feel a little guilty to what I said above, to counter balance what I just said, a quote I like to use: “Focus on the journey, not the destination. Joy is found not in finishing an activity but in doing it.”.


----------



## Knotsure (Jan 11, 2011)

steven4601 said:


> If you look closely, you have a prototype version, not the production model. Prototype prices are sometimes derrived from development costs divided by the amount of units made in the proto batch. This price can be quite a giggle
> 
> As for example, Tesla had their 50 million dollar Roadster a few years ago. Now things have scaled up, its all back into normal perspective. The model S is so well priced that im putting question marks on my own DIY attempt.... Why invest so much money in a diy roadster or two seater where you can buy a (quicker) sports saloon with more range for (only) almost twice as much with a high(er) return to market value which will probably cost less then converting and owning a DIY for a few years....
> 
> I feel a little guilty to what I said above, to counter balance what I just said, a quote I like to use: “Focus on the journey, not the destination. Joy is found not in finishing an activity but in doing it.”.


That quote for the most part is why I am doing this project. It has also been a very good learning experience for me. There are many people locally that have taken interest in my project and are waiting for their ride. Sure you can buy an electric car, but where is the the story behind that? I see it as a hobby and something I like doing. 

I guess my next step is to make a data table and figure out the inductance for the motor at different rotor positions. My college has a precision meter to measure inductance I could use. Would I need to take measurements every 90 degree rotation or would it have to be smaller than that? 

It was also mentioned I could possibly find out the operating specifications by getting a 208V 30hp vfd and use the autotune feature. It sounds like a good idea to me but it may be harder for me to get a 208V 30hp drive than I had originally thought. 

Thank you very much for your help. I feel like I am getting on the right track now.

-Ben


----------



## ruckus (Apr 15, 2009)

The Scott Drive can power that motor for a LOT less than the $$$ mentioned on this thread. It can be spec'd with IGBT's of various voltages and amperages, depending on the ratings of your motor.

400v 400A (160kva) ~$3600
400v 600A (240kva) ~$4300
800v 300A (320kva) ~$4900

If you want to know more, I can send you a pdf detailing the specs if you PM me your email or contact me through the website in my signature. There is a picture of the Scott Drive I brought to EVCCON 2012 on my site.

Cheers.


----------



## Stiive (Nov 22, 2008)

ruckus said:


> The Scott Drive can power that motor for a LOT less than the $$$ mentioned on this thread. It can be spec'd with IGBT's of various voltages and amperages, depending on the ratings of your motor.
> 
> 400v 400A (160kva) ~$3600
> 400v 600A (240kva) ~$4300
> ...


Are you listing IGBT nameplate readings? If so you are severely misleading the capabilities of this controller.

Even if the 160kva for instance is 600v 600A IGBTs, this is still generously rated. Probably safer to rate at 120kva for 300ARMS


----------



## ruckus (Apr 15, 2009)

Sorry for the confusion, I am already de-rating the specs. 

For example, let's evaluate the 800v 300A (240kva) controller.

The IGBT is classed as 1200v with 900v (75%) as the recommended limit. 800v is the widely accepted voltage for robust durability (66%). This is what I am using to rate the controller.

More interesting is the amperage output in relation to temperature. Here are the specs:

25C/77F 800v 410A 328kva
50C/122F 800v 360A 288kva
75C/167F 800v 325A 260kva
87C/189F 800v 300A 240kva
100C/212F 800v 270A 216kva
150C/302F 800v 125A 100kva

Many would be tempted to call this a 300kva drive. I am de-rating the controller to a temperature (87C/189F) which is higher than it will likely see in most cases. This means the controller should meet the specs at the END of the drive/race and not just at the beginning. Even with the cooling system at boiling the drive puts out over 200kva. 

Hopefully that ameliorates your concerns.

Cheers!


----------



## Stiive (Nov 22, 2008)

ruckus said:


> The IGBT is classed as 1200v with 900v (75%) as the recommended limit. 800v is the widely accepted voltage for robust durability (66%). This is what I am using to rate the controller.


Depending on the capacitor size and sample rate of the vector control this *might *be okay. I would say this is quite a high limit for an untested new controller - I'd be more inclined to run at 600V with a fast scope on the bus first. I'd be concerned for anyone running at these voltages and current will likely pop an IGBT and let the fire out.
I think your jumping the gun a bit ruckus trying to push these on people before releasing test data - sure your creating publicity - but its bad publicity IMO.



ruckus said:


> More interesting is the amperage output in relation to temperature. Here are the specs:
> 
> 25C/77F 800v 410A 328kva
> 50C/122F 800v 360A 288kva
> ...


Umm, _*you *_spec'd it at 320kva. Most current ratings are spec'd atleast 85deg+, sometimes 100deg at the silicon. Keep in mind there are other temperature readings such as junction and case also. 

I'm still not sure how you got 320kva, but the maximum i'd rate this controller is 800V 215ARMS = 290kva. This is _only _if the code was super robust and had been proven at these power levels time and time again - which it hasn't.

If your one of the guinea pigs of this controller, you'd be more looking at ~200kva - and you'd be _*slowly *_working your way up to this power - especially because there doesn't seem to be any tangible warranty attached with this controller.
200kva is needless to say, still huge amounts of power - you'd be looking at a 160kw motor @ 0.8pf.

This controller may have potential _once _results are published, however for now, I'd personally stick with the Tritium, Knotsure.


----------



## ruckus (Apr 15, 2009)

320kva! the jokes on me. Sooner or later I'll figure out 8x3=24, not 32.

Sorry, it was supposed to say 240kva like the one above it. My eye slipped down the maze of numbers and latched onto the wrong one. My apologies!

Sounds like you agree that 240kva is a properly de-rated figure.

What 'test' data would you like? This family of IGBT's has been in use in rigorous Scott Drive testing in multiple vehicles for some time now. These are top-quality IGBT's from one of the industry leaders. They are specifically designed for EV use. Are you suggesting they are incorrect in how they rate their product? I was under the impression that 2/3 the voltage rating was considered a safe stopping point and 3/4 the voltage rating was the absolute limit. Is this incorrect in your view?

I don't see hardly any 'test' data available for EV products from any manufacturer. For example, Siemens rates their 61kw motor at 200kw peak. That is a power factor of 3.28X the continuous rating in an induction motor. Dyno data to back it up? Nope. Just a suspicious number on a spec sheet. The thing is they can do that because nobody has had a controller powerful enough to actually test that. Until now. This recent glut of Siemens to hit the gray market will likely provide the opportunity to match the Siemens up to a truly powerful controller (the Scott Drive) at prices most folks can afford. 

Cheers


----------



## Stiive (Nov 22, 2008)

ruckus said:


> Sounds like you agree that 240kva is a properly de-rated figure.


Yes, 240kva (even upto ~290kva) for the IGBTs you describe should be fine for a professional design. But you have to understand, this is dependant on the quality of the controller - adequately rated bus caps, snubbers, and low inductance design. It also depends on the speed of the MCU and how well written/optimised the code is. 




ruckus said:


> What 'test' data would you like? This family of IGBT's has been in use in rigorous Scott Drive testing in multiple vehicles for some time now.


There is no information about this controller being used apart from a picture and short film of that green Subaru, no empirical data what-so-ever. Since its sold as a matched pair, id atleast expect to see some dyno graphs at minimum. Much more information is required, but this is off topic. I'm happy to discuss with you on another thread.




ruckus said:


> These are top-quality IGBT's from one of the industry leaders. They are specifically designed for EV use. Are you suggesting they are incorrect in how they rate their product? I was under the impression that 2/3 the voltage rating was considered a safe stopping point and 3/4 the voltage rating was the absolute limit. Is this incorrect?


These figures both seem fine, but again entirely depends on the actual design. An AC controller is a complex beast, this seems to be the first revision, and there is no test data available to show its stable at these power levels - of course there is going to be scepticism. 
I have had cheap controllers blow up on me from poor design - sure it may work some of the time, but itll require a LOT more testing before id consider it fail safe at these power levels, and at these power levels, catastrophic failure is damn scary


----------



## ruckus (Apr 15, 2009)

Stiive said:


> ... of course there is going to be scepticism.


Skeptics are followers, not leaders. 

The question is what kind of data is 'good' data.

Is a 30-second dyno test 'good' data?

How about a 2-hour phone conversation with a customer who has been testing the system up steep mountain grades for thousands of miles in a direct-drive SUV? Is that good data?

I laid my money on the latter. Time will tell. I will provide full dyno data as soon as possible.


----------



## Stiive (Nov 22, 2008)

ruckus said:


> Skeptics are followers, not leaders.


Whatever mate. If you feel you have provided enough 'data' to the community by saying _you _have spoken to the owner of the _one _vehicle fitted with scottdrive, then so be it. 
However I don't count your phone call, where none of the content has been made public, enough empirical data that would justify myself to fork out over $5k.

I guess I'm just a "follower" who has enough experience to realise an AC controller is not a trivial piece of hardware/software.


Lead the way


----------



## ruckus (Apr 15, 2009)

Stiive said:


> Lead the way


Already doing that. Already spent the money. So we will see...

Not at all trying to insult you or your very valid questions (especially when I type a completely bogus number on accident). That was a good catch on your part.

I am merely saying that buying ANY EV component is fairly risky at this point. Many consider the 'tried and true' to be a good solution despite the increasing number of failures. After suffering my own woes with traditional systems (which don't provide dyno data either unless you count 72v as dyno 'data'), I am putting my money on a system that has held up under conditions that would have destroyed any other system in the price range.

A vehicle IS a mobile dyno. Driving up steep hills in high gear is just a physics equation. I may not know the inside details of a controller as well as you, but I fully comprehend the physics involved in motorized travel. Thousands of miles up steep hills is exactly the same as hours and hours on the dyno under heavy loading. In fact, it is better. Many a design has emerged from the test lab to fail miserably in real-world conditions. I will take 'actual' data over contrived 'test' data any day. 

The bottom line is most of the EV products out there are new, fairly untested, and poorly documented. But that is not a strike against a component. A small amount of quite positive data is VERY different than negative data or no data. I agree with you that further testing is needed. So I am doing that.

Take the Brusa DMC534 at $18,000 or the MES-DEA TIM-600 at $5,000. What data is available for these? I find little to none.

Cheers.


----------



## Knotsure (Jan 11, 2011)

Stiive said:


> This controller may have potential _once _results are published, however for now, I'd personally stick with the Tritium, Knotsure.


Yeah, I purchased a Tritium WaveSculptor200 a few months ago. I ended up having to use the induction motor due to the lack of specifications for the IPM motors. I am still setting things up and getting my gear box made. I made my own voltage sensing precharge controller using an Allen Bradley Micro 810 controller. Lots of things to do... It will be a while before I am able to get the car on the road.


----------



## ruckus (Apr 15, 2009)

Please link the 'published results' of the Wavesculpter 200. I am not seeing them.

In looking at their spec sheets I constantly see the use of the absolute highest possible value as the rating. For example:

They use a 600v IGBT and list the continuous voltage as 450v and max of 475v. Well beyond my rating.
They list the controller model as '200' and then later admit the absolute max peak is only 165kva. 
They only give the thermal rating up to 50C as 76kva. What about 100C? Where is the 'data'?

Please understand I am not saying it is not a quality product. I am only pointing out that their numbers are 'optimistic' and they fail to list the power levels at real-world temperatures.

Using their rating system, The Scott Drive 250R (800v 300A nominal) would be rated at 360kva (900v 400A) and the controller would be called the Model '400'. 

But then you would say I was exaggerating...


----------

