# EV manual transmissions,



## Hollie Maea (Dec 9, 2009)

Looking forward to your list. A transmission is the last big decision I have to make for my conversion...


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## madderscience (Jun 28, 2008)

Am I weird then for pulling a trailer in a direct drive conversion?

OK, max load is about 1000lbs and I avoid the steep hills when loaded....

If I could figure out how to put a 2 speed axle in, it would be nice at times, but I would want probably only a 1.2:1 or 1.3:1 ratio between the speeds. basically I would want a low range for a little more torque, and a freeway flyer ratio.


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## skooler (Mar 26, 2011)

Not at all. We quite often use the rx8 for shunting cars around the yard.

It towes better than a couple of landrovers we have kicking around!


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## skooler (Mar 26, 2011)

Also.... fwiw.

I use almost every gear on my rx8 5 speed. Admittedly i could get away with two (2nd and 4yh/5th) but the convenience is nice. I live in a hilly area so first gets used for hill starts.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

A manual transmissions list, and experienced opinions and advice would be great.

I am still in two minds about fitting a trans to my truck build.
Direct drive is easy but having a range of gears would make it better for the varying loads it will carry and also for trailer moving and shunting.

I am trying to decide if the torque of an 11" motor in direct drive outweighs using a 9" motor and a transmission, weight for weight.


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## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

> Am I weird then for pulling a trailer in a direct drive conversion?


That depends on what your final drive ratio is, how flat the terrain is and how many amps you are willing to tolerate.

To each, his own, I say. But, I agree with 100% of the truckers on the highways, "The more gears you have, the better you can suit the load to the hill." (The easier it is to pull a hill)

Miz


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## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

Hi Woody: 

I would really like the 11" motor And a transmission for a truck. But if pressed, given your terrain (Flat land EU) I would choose the 9"/transmission with no hesitation. If there were some even biggish hills, I would hold out for the bigger motor even with the weight penalty.

After driving my 862 Kg roadster with both two gears and then direct drive, it gives me a good opinion of the benefits of both. Note that I changed the rear gear to better suit each mode of power. 









(Thanks to Dragonsgate for the great depiction)

The powerglide gave a really nice jump from a stop and allowed me to just about beat all but the fastest street cars. (Turboed, big tires, big engined, ETC.) I would be across the traffic signal square before they even rolled one car length. My zero - 96 Km/Hr speed using two gears was 10.5 seconds.

In direct drive (ok it had a more powerful motor), I could still beat most at the jump, but they could catch me on the top end as I had to choose where I needed the torque. My zero - 96 Km/Hr speed was 9.5 seconds.

The geared car (even with the smaller motor) had both low end jump and top end torque. For me, the trade off was fine as I rarely street race anyways and I enjoyed the really/really quiet lack of a transmission.

I never realized how much noise they made as they in turn were drowned out by the exhaust noise. All I now hear is gravel crunching under the tires, even at 96 Km/Hr.

I hope this all makes some sense.

Miz


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

mizlplix said:


> Hi Woody:
> 
> I would really like the 11" motor And a transmission for a truck. But if pressed, given your terrain (Flat land EU) I would choose the 9"/transmission with no hesitation. If there were some even biggish hills, I would hold out for the bigger motor even with the weight penalty.
> 
> ...


Thanks Miz.

I would go with the 11" and a transmission but for the weight limit.
I am stuck with 550kg max to get it legal and the 11" motor comes in at 104kg whereas the 9" I have is 43kg, leaving me up to 61kg for a transmission.

I will have a look around for a short, light transmission with reasonable ratios while I have the options in the build process.


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## bwjunkie (Jul 31, 2013)

It would be nice to see a comment from someone who knows the complexities of changing transmissions to something needing a different mounting system and change of drive shaft / CV. Even as a daring DIY'er myself, I worry that this area of the car is a little tricky to be doing on my own engineering.

Josh


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## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

Woody: ........550 Kg.......Lay off the bangers and mash and you could make up that difference. 

I guess there ARE a few advantages to living in the USA. I have to go over 25,999 GVW in order to get into trouble. (11,792.95 Kg)

The11" motor might be a torque monster, but it also has a lower RPM than that 9". So, pick the 9" and an aluminum 3 or 4 speed transmission and never look back.

BW: There a lot of good people on DIY that can cover almost any situation.

Now as for drivelines. Go with the 1310 universal joint as it is the most common one out there. If solid (no grease holes) unit is used, it is good for over 500 HP and 1,600 Ft/Lbs torque. Everyone used it. Ford 9", 8", 8.8", GM 12 bolt, 10 Bolt, Dana 30, 40, 60.....on and on have used it at one point. My Ford 8.8 rear bolted directly to the powerglide using a 1310 slip yoke and a Ford Ranger driveshaft. When I went direct drive, I used a Turbo 400 yoke for a 1310 ujoint and bolted the new motor right in. 

Miz


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## 67BGTEV (Nov 1, 2013)

Miz,
I drive 80% freeway and drive about 350miles per week. I've put in a Datsun 240Z 4 speed tranny in my MBG GT conversion. It weighed 50 lbs less than the original MG tranny, costed me $100. It has a 1:1 on the 4th gear. For my setup, I like to keep the motor RPM to about 3000 for a better torque. I'm planning to replace the gearbox from a Datsun 280ZX T5. I think the final ratio is 0.71:1. So I should get a better torque at 60mph.


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## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

Ya, if you have a fairly low rear gear like 4.10-1 then that overdriven gear will make it like a 3.25-1 gear. Really nice for your usage.


A friend has a S-10 converted into an EV. It tips the scale at almost 4,000 Lbs. Even though he has a 5th gear and a 4.10 rear, he never uses it due to high amp draw. Hills would have made it even worse.
Miz


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## 67BGTEV (Nov 1, 2013)

bwjunkie said:


> It would be nice to see a comment from someone who knows the complexities of changing transmissions to something needing a different mounting system and change of drive shaft / CV. Even as a daring DIY'er myself, I worry that this area of the car is a little tricky to be doing on my own engineering.
> 
> Josh


Josh,
Please look at the comment above. Mu blog in my signature has some info about the gearbox from 240Z.
Since the 240Z tranny was pushed back, I had to modify the mounting X-member, shorten the Drive shaft (used MGB drive shaft). We had to take a lot of measurements and calculate the desired length of the shaft. It worked out well.


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## EVfun (Mar 14, 2010)

Woodsmith said:


> Thanks Miz.
> 
> I would go with the 11" and a transmission but for the weight limit.
> I am stuck with 550kg max to get it legal and the 11" motor comes in at 104kg whereas the 9" I have is 43kg, leaving me up to 61kg for a transmission.
> ...


With that low weight limit (for those in the USA 1210 lb.) I would consider perhaps duel 6.7 inch ADC motors. The idea is that they have the same commutator as the 8 inch, but smaller and lighter. You are light enough to consider direct drive but will need more commutator if you want both comfortable city and open road driving. A high voltage pack, around 300 volts, would allow both motors to remain in series all the time if you gear for a top running speed of around 70 mph. The only catch is that you will need a rear axle that offers gearing in the 5:1 range. I can drive my 1200 lb. buggy around in 3rd gear (1.32) only with its 26.8 inch tall rear tires and 4.37 ring and pinion. The catch is that 2nd is mandatory for some city situation, in particular the steeper hills in Seattle. That is where twice the commutator, from 2 motors, would come into play.


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## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

Ok then, lets add it all up.

My pack of 130AH cells weigh 197 Kg alone.......1/3rd of your allowance.
You would have to go to 100AH or even 80AH cells.

1210 Lbs.....with dual motors as suggested, you are back in direct drive territory. You would have adequate torque (remember flat terrain?)to even pull a trailer.

At 1210 Lbs, I would rather put the weight in cells than transmission.

Miz


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## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

Online gear/speed/RPM calculator  
_________________________________________________________________

Here is one that I refer to constantly when doing feasibility studies:

http://www.rocky-road.com/calculator.html

It is one of the handiest you will ever find.
you can even factor in rear gears, trans gears, tire size, as well as transfer case ratio.

I use the 4th and 5th ones from top all the time.

Miz


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## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

A GREAT transmission/gear ratio site:
_____________________________________________________________

http://www.magneticlynx.com/carfor/transc.htm

It has just about everything in one spot!

Miz


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

mizlplix said:


> Woody: ........550 Kg.......Lay off the bangers and mash and you could make up that difference.
> 
> I guess there ARE a few advantages to living in the USA. I have to go over 25,999 GVW in order to get into trouble. (11,792.95 Kg)
> 
> ...


Yes, I am tending that way now, and I can save the 11" for the tractor rebuild. 
Cheers.

The 9" I have doesn't have cooling fan or vents but I can look for a replacement at a later date if it becomes an issue.

To save detracting from the thread too much, a quick explanation of my limitations on the build.

I am building to 'heavy quadricycle for carrying goods' regulations and so have an unladen vehicle mass of 550kg, without the batteries. I do have a 1000kg cargo capacity though so my 'bangers and mash' will be safe. 
I also have a 15kw power limit which is really quite small. 48V and 300A or 72V and 200A are my options given the controllers I have.
Maximum speed I need is 40mph.


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## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

I am really glad to see this thread here, excellent topic for our community. I convert lightweight Metros that come with five speed transmissions, but I still use them. I can pick one of these five speeds up with one hand since they are so light, and they are still plentiful in the junkyards at $99 plus core if I break one. I agree with MIZ that there is no need to use the original transmissions, and that it is not that big a deal to select a more appropriate transmission for an EV. I only use two of my five gears, but one cool thing about these little Metros transmissions is that there are four final drive ratios available to choose from in them. 3.52, 3.79, 4.1, and 4.4:1. The 4.4 is the most common one available, but I find that with my lower voltage conversions that the 4.4 is the least appropriate, so I swap them out with 3.52 or 3.79 so I can use my plentiful torque to compensate for the lack of rpms. I always keep my eyes out for a better transmission solution, but I am also close to the threshold of not even needing one at all.


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## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

I agree completely. A Metro is a fine car for conversion. They are cute too.

Unfortunately, one of the other good cars is less than pretty, but can be had for $300-$400 in excellent condition because they have this blown head gasket thing happening after 25,000 miles. They weigh 2,800 in ICE form and they are made of plastic panels.......The Saturn. The manual transaxle is geared properly for a DC system and there is a huge room for cells. If they were not so plain.....

My first Ev was a Jet Electrica (1982 Ford Escort). Not much better for looks, but it was a factory car. Even with that little Prestolite 8" motor and a 4 speed transaxle, it was peppy. Even at 3,500 Lbs, it was a 2 gear car.

Stock up on Metros as they will not be around forever.

Miz


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## azdeltawye (Dec 30, 2008)

mizlplix said:


> …There is no rule that sez that you must use the transmission that came in the vehicle. …Miz


 Yes but if you are converting a front wheel drive w/ a transverse engine you don’t really have a choice. The form factor and axle/CV flange is usually specific to the make & model. Plus space is at a premium in these situations…


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## dladd (Jun 1, 2011)

mizlplix said:


> Unfortunately, one of the other good cars is less than pretty, but can be had for $300-$400 in excellent condition because they have this blown head gasket thing happening after 25,000 miles. They weigh 2,800 in ICE form and they are made of plastic panels.......The Saturn. The manual transaxle is geared properly for a DC system and there is a huge room for cells. If they were not so plain.....


Hey!  I think the first gen Saturns are quite good looking.  One of the challenges of the Saturn though is that in stock form the passenger side driveshaft is hung from the motor. Not sure if that's typical, but it's one more piece of custom fabrication that has to be done when converting to electric.

FWIW, I use gears 2 (0-30), 3 (30-50) and 4 (50+) in my Saturn. With a higher revving AC setup I'd think you could get away with 2,3. Maybe just 3rd gear only if there's enough torque.


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## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

It all depends on your fabricating abilities and budget. I have seen many front wheel drive cars get a transaxle swap to a different model, size ratio...Etc. Most used the transaxle inner shafts and the car outers.

Just like converting a front wheel drive car to rear wheel drive. That was easy!

Hotrodding is like that. 

I hear ya, that right shaft brace needs a mount......Yes most are like that. 

BTW: When I was with Bondurant, we were given an experimental right half shaft viscous clutch to test. 









It went in a Taurus SHO (which did not have a posi). We cut the shaft in the middle, removed 3" and welded the clutch in. It stopped the usual inside tire lifting and spinning. The car went to be wickedly fast in corners.

Miz


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## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

Gearing:
_________________________________________________________

I have owned three EV's to date. 
I live in a relatively flat place.
Two of the cars were DC and had 4 speed manual transmissions with clutches. Weight...3,500Lbs.
One car, had an AC system, had a 2 speed transmission and weighed 1,900 Lbs. Later I removed the transmission and used 1 gear.

To be real, the two Dc cars, even at 3,500 Lbs, only needed 2 gears for everyday traffic and driving. (No expressways) They would bark the tires in second gear too! 

The lighter AC car is more fun to drive (Less work), but the traffic load is so compact that the speeds are held to 45 MPH. If I lived in Colorado, I would definitely have the 2 speed transmission back in again. 

If I were to build or convert another vehicle again, My biggest priority would to get the car as *light as possible*. (hole saw, cut out extra sheet metal, re make things in aluminum....... Because this is your biggest bang for your buck over anything else. (And is not stressed enough)

Then those two gears would be Primo. Three gears if I did freeway driving.

*-CLUTCHES:* I know, certain people are adamant about eliminating them, but I have gone both ways. (The jury is in.....Use a clutch!) Be wary about buying








This is a 7.5 " tripple clutch. Revs up and down fast! A racing clutch should give lots of road miles!


Do Not use a stock flywheel as is. Lose the ring gear, Have it O.D. turned down to within 1/2" of the clutch bolts. THEN have it lightened on the back side as much as your nerves allow. 15 Lbs would be fine with me.

There is no real clutching (Slipping) heat as the clutch is fully engaged at start, Plus you do not need that giant thermal mass to dissapate a clutch dump take off. You only de-clutch to relieve the synchros a little and add to their life span and make the shift faster. (I know, I hear the screams of the no-clutch people)

*Synchros:* When you try to shift. The synchros are clutches in their own right. You can open up the "dog" slots to make shifting easier abut it will clunk at each shift. and accelerate synchro wear.









Yes, gears can be removed and spacers cut and installed, BUT it is futile because you still turn the bottom cluster gear even in high gear. 

There are a few oval track transmissions out there that unlock the cluster and only have a locked up thru shaft in high. They retail about $1400-$2500. But are SWEET! Some have an internal oil bath cone clutch, allowing you to do away with the flywheel...Even better!









*-Lubrication:* Most T-5's and TREMEC's use plain old Dexron as lube. (It lowers the friction.) Some can substitute GM Synchromesh lube for the old standby 80W-90 grease. Think thin for reduced friction....

*-Universal joint phasing:* The included angles of the u-joints have a big impact on friction, vibration and life span of the drive shaft. Measure the angle of the transmission. Measure the downward angle of the driveshaft, Subtract and the product is the universal joint phasing angle. It should be between 3 Deg. and 7 Deg. to be considered "Normal". Measure the pinion angle to ground, and remember the driveshaft angle, subtract.....Sometimes an eye opener!









Shimming the rear axle to "look" at the transmission is not a good thing as the transmission u-joint sees maybe 5-6 Degrees. The target is to have BOTH angles close as possible. "Driveshaft phasing" 

Ujoints "overcenter" twice per revolution. To achieve "universal harmony"
(So to speak), both angles need to be the same to cancel each other and run cooler, longer with almost no wear.........yes little or no wear.

Measure your vehicle u joint angles......Surprised? Drive the car 15 minutes. Stop and infrared thermometer the u joints.....You will find that the greatest angle runs hot and the lowest angle runs coolest.

Shim the rear end and/or the transmission to get as close as you can to equal. Drive 15 minutes again....You will find that the heat is really equalized thru both u-joints. = friction also means lower torque needed to drive the car. (Less heat losses)

Later, Miz

EXAMPLE: Get a plain old Muncey or Saganaw (They are aluminum.) Use low and high. Remove everything and replace with aluminum spacers.

While you are under there, clean and paint the driveshaft. (Pays in the long run)

More later, Miz


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## MightyAA (Nov 19, 2014)

I am curious Miz... Been looking at this:
http://www.brinninc.com/brinnpredator.html
It's one of those oval track transmissions. Have you seen a conversion use this type of transmission? 

I'd love to hear your thoughts about using this kind of transmission behind a EV motor. It seems perfect; 2 spds, reverse, can take a lot of power, very light weight (45lbs), holds up to serious race motor power, doesn't rob power spinning non-essential gears, and even a pto plate for accessories like pumps. But 'race grade' stuff usually means high strung, regular rebuilds, and daily use limitations like hard shifting, no syncro, etc. Is it a viable option to be considered for a street EV?


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## Baratong (Nov 29, 2012)

Hey Miz,

I was looking at Bert, and Brinn transmissions. I was about to buy one on ebay but read on the manufacturers web site (both say this) that 1st gear isn't to be used much at all, and not much power should be put through 1st gear. 

Do you have experience with these, and do you think using one of these in a EV would work out? i.e. low gear wouldn't wear out the internal clutch too quickly?

Thanks!

http://www.brinninc.com/
http://berttransmission.com/catalog/


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## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

Having oval track raced for many years, I can say I have not broken or worn out the low gear on a Bert, Brinn, Falcon, Coleman or similar transmission. The low is for starting off and the rear gear ratio factored by the tire stagger (diameter) keeps the engine up into it's power band in high gear.

Some are spur cut (straight), some are helical (slanted), The spur gears are noisy, the helical are quiet. (A factor in an EV)

The internal, wet clutches are extremely robust. .....No I would not even sweat the clutches on a street application. They are engaged during take off in an EV. They only are used to shift....very light duty and not even used in high gear.

Some, like the Bert LMZ transmission, have dog rings instead of synchros. (Meaning you just yank the shifter back to shift to high....no clutch needed), but you need to double clutch to down shift to low, unless you are stopped.

I would call Port City Racing (1-800-472-2464) and ask their opinions for an EV. You might find they are excited about your idea.

Miz


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## poprock (Apr 29, 2010)

hi..hope this is still the right forum. Are cvt transmissions able to handle the full torque at start up and sudden acceleration.? Have any members done a conversion using a cvt transmission?


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## Moltenmetal (Mar 20, 2014)

Excellent thread.

Getting rid of a transmission means compromising on off the line performance or top speed. Pick one, or keep the tranny. But I agree about the limited gear ratios- you don't need all five in a 5 spd for sure.

Agree about getting rid of a wimpy, exotic, expensive-to-replace transmission. It's not that hard-but there are things to know for sure and you're doing a good job of pointing them out!

Clutch is optional. I like mine and don't regret keeping it, but others are very very happy without one.

Driveshaft: having the u joints articulated through the same angles as your drawing shows is correct. It is also important that the U joint yokes on the driveshaft be aligned so the two u joints are out of phase and cancel out each other's oval motions. If you're cutting a driveshaft to make a new transition driveshaft, here are a few points to remember:

1) Align the yokes of the u joints on either end of the driveshaft.
2) Keep the angles of both u joints equal. The signs of the two angles don't matter- they just need to be equal. A squashed U (i.e. pinion and motor shafts both pointing downward with the driveshaft horizontal) or stretched Z configuration (i.e. motor shaft and pinion shaft parallel but separated by an elevation distance, like in your pic) are both OK as long as the joints articulate through equal angles.
3) A driveshaft should have axial slop at one end only- a sliding joint of some sort to provide give in the axial direction- obviously a lot of give if the diff isn't mounted to the frame like it is in my car. Don't screw up like me and have axial slop at both ends of the driveshaft- it's bad news.

If your driveshaft has CV joints on it, ask the experts as this confuses me still! Suspect that a driveshaft with two CV joints wouldn't care about the articulation angles and straighter would be better/lower friction, but others will chime in. Shafts with a CV joint on one end and a U joint on the other, do exist, and are a weirdo that I don't understand- they should have problems with the nonuniform motion of the U joint unless that U joint is running perfectly axially aligned, ie. without any articulation on the u joint and all the articulation on the CV joint.

Nice video link on my E-Fire thread which shows the effect of the U joint angles.


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## EVfun (Mar 14, 2010)

poprock said:


> hi..hope this is still the right forum. Are cvt transmissions able to handle the full torque at start up and sudden acceleration.? Have any members done a conversion using a cvt transmission?


I would not attempt to put a passenger car CVT behind a series wound DC motor. I don't think any of them will tolerate the low end torque.


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## dougingraham (Jul 26, 2011)

EVfun said:


> I would not attempt to put a passenger car CVT behind a series wound DC motor. I don't think any of them will tolerate the low end torque.


I have considered this for my next project but since I will probably buy a salvage OEM EV and reuse the systems there is little need. The whole point of a CVT is as a band aid for the non linear torque characteristics of an ICE engine. With electric motors you have essentially a flat torque curve from 0 rpm up to a certain RPM at which point the torque tapers off. The efficiency does not change much over this range so it isn't like adding a CVT is going to increase your range dramatically. At an RPM point above where the torque tapers off is where you shift gears. If you used a CVT this is where you would start to advance it. The OEM's select a single reduction ratio that matches the motor characteristics to the tire diameter and top speed and acceleration characteristics desired. We usually keep the transmission because there will always be a gear ratio that gets you close to what you need. The downside of a transmission and CVT's are no exception is that they are not very efficient. A typical manual transmission will absorb around 10%. Getting rid of it completely will increase range noticeably. I imagine a CVT has similar efficiency. The reason to go to one is that you can operate a much worse efficiency device at its optimum point for either power or efficiency depending on what you want at that moment.

If you want to pursue this you should probably look at the specs for the internal combustion engine you would be replacing and limit the torque the CVT sees. Since current is directly proportional to torque, limiting current will limit torque. Or select a motor whose peak torque is similar to the peak of the original ICE.The tricky stuff will be mapping motor RPM and vehicle speed to attain your goals for having the CVT in the first place. For example when cruising you would want to minimize the power going into the motor. An eco or sport mode would be possibilities but not much difference between them.

I am not sure how a CVT would respond to regenerative braking. They were not designed for high forces in the deceleration direction so might not respond well to that. Or it might be no problem at all.


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