# Best value cost/kWH on 3.2V lifepo4 cells?



## tortuga (Sep 11, 2017)

Greetings all I am looking at creating a reliable replacement pack for a light weight Zap that was modified (by zap) to have a 120VDC Motor:
Model:FB1-4001A
Continuous rating: 19.0 kW (158A @ 120V) (25.2 hp)
Peak output: 63.8 kW (531A @ 120V) (85.0 hp) 
I am not really sure what the actual peak amps the truck pulled when driving up hill or under full load.
I am looking at options for 38 3.2V lithium cells packs. 
Does anyone on here have experiences ordering batteries from China?
I have been looking at these $272/kWH Foradepower:
https://www.aliexpress.com/store/pr...ergy-Storage-Battery/1191644_32881904233.html
and these
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/Hig...-100A-f-lifepo4-battery-pack/32427642435.html

I am located in Oregon USA there is nothing even remotely close to me that sells these.
I would prefer to work with something new as time is limited.
Thanks in advance!


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## boekel (Nov 10, 2010)

is there a specific reason you're looking for LFP?


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## tortuga (Sep 11, 2017)

boekel said:


> is there a specific reason you're looking for LFP?


Not really. Whats your recommendation?


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## boekel (Nov 10, 2010)

any used OEM pack, tesla modules are most expensive ($200-300 per kWh) and others usually arount $100-150 per kWh


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## tortuga (Sep 11, 2017)

boekel said:


> any used OEM pack, tesla modules are most expensive ($200-300 per kWh) and others usually arount $100-150 per kWh


Thank you for your reply, I am not getting the same math results. A used pack OEM pack cost more than these new cells. If I could get one for a reasonable price like 1/2 of new I would consider it..
I was hoping someone on here had experience buying new batteries.
For example
Looks like I can get a range of Nissan Leif cells from 2011-2016 7.6V 56AH cells for around $150 on ebay. However none of the vendors have 36 cells in stock.
Plus it seems those cells are huge and low on the AH.
The cost @ 150 a cell would be much more per kWH at 365/kWH.
Even if I got enough of these gen 1 leaf batteries 
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Nissan-Leaf-Battery-Module-7-6V-35-40Ah-Used-/123046582768
I would still be paying $335/kWH
Tesla 24V packs dont reconfigure into 120VDC easily but they do seem to cost around $250/kWH (USD).

I dont see why people pay more for used batteries than new ones cost while not really knowing what your getting?


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## john61ct (Feb 25, 2017)

$5-600 per 100AH @12V is low market rate for new quality LFP prismatics.

Well maybe new, maybe good, from unkown overseas vendors.

Compare to a local trusted vendor, which of couse should be higher
http://www.evwest.com/catalog/index.php?manufacturers_id=3


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## tortuga (Sep 11, 2017)

john61ct said:


> $5-600 per 100AH @12V is low market rate for new quality LFP prismatics.
> 
> Well maybe new, maybe good, from unkown overseas vendors.
> 
> ...


Thats interesting thank you.
They have a 180AH 3.2V cell for $243 USD
http://www.evwest.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=4&products_id=264
So my estimate is with 38 of those you can get about 22kW for $421/kWH.


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## boekel (Nov 10, 2010)

ebay prices aren't the best comparing prices.

tesla modules are actually quite nice for 120v, if you charge them to 4,1 volt per cell, you get 123v charged from 5 modules.

capacity of the '5,3kWh' modules is more like 5kWh if you charge till 4,2 volt, you loose 10-15% charging to 4,1V (something to calculate with), but you get a longer life at 4,1V (goes for all batteries, LFP numbers I don't know)


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## tortuga (Sep 11, 2017)

boekel said:


> ebay prices aren't the best comparing prices.
> 
> tesla modules are actually quite nice for 120v, if you charge them to 4,1 volt per cell, you get 123v charged from 5 modules.
> 
> capacity of the '5,3kWh' modules is more like 5kWh if you charge till 4,2 volt, you loose 10-15% charging to 4,1V (something to calculate with), but you get a longer life at 4,1V (goes for all batteries, LFP numbers I don't know)


That 4.1 V idea is interesting thank you. I have looked into that Tesla cells. They are $233/kWH. Do you recommend a source other than ebay?
Like I said there is nothing here locally.
Thank you


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## Boxster-warp (Jun 22, 2014)

Hello
I read that was 4,0v perfect for tesla batteries and long life?????
Greetings Boxster-Warp


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## tortuga (Sep 11, 2017)

Well I dont know about that. The Panasonic specs on the cells say to charge them to 4.2. The specs also indicate 500 Cycles so again I am still wondering if anyone on here has any experiences with these NEW batteries coming from asia, that cost much LESS than all this used stuff?
Cheers


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## kennybobby (Aug 10, 2012)

To what brand of cheap Chinese cells are you referring?

ultrafires? with fake 18650 cells


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## tortuga (Sep 11, 2017)

kennybobby said:


> To what brand of cheap Chinese cells are you referring?
> 
> ultrafires? with fake 18650 cells



"FORADEPOWER" Is an interesting one:

https://www.aliexpress.com/item/8PC...0-Times-Max-Current-600A-For/32877013659.html


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## ishiwgao (May 5, 2011)

kennybobby said:


> To what brand of cheap Chinese cells are you referring?
> 
> ultrafires? with fake 18650 cells


This gave me a good laugh. very amusing, never seen this before.

guess we always need to be careful when purchasing cells from overseas vendors


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

I like Volt Batteries
You can get a 16 kWh complete unit with all sorts of extra goodies for about $2000

They are a TON better than any of the "new" cells


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## kennybobby (Aug 10, 2012)

tortuga said:


> "FORADEPOWER" Is an interesting one:
> 
> https://www.aliexpress.com/item/8PC...0-Times-Max-Current-600A-For/32877013659.html


i would recommend to not charge up to 3.65, many folks here have lost cells in packs due to charging just to 3.6. The resting voltage of a fully charged cell, 100% is 3.33, so even 3.4 would fully charge a cell and be less risky for loss.


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## tortuga (Sep 11, 2017)

Duncan said:


> I like Volt Batteries
> You can get a 16 kWh complete unit with all sorts of extra goodies for about $2000
> 
> They are a TON better than any of the "new" cells


This sounds like the direction everyone is pointing me in.
It looks someone sells 54AH 60Volt ones on ebay. So I would get 4 of these and get a 108AH 120V pack I guess.
What kind of a BMS do you use for them?


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

Hi
E-Bay is not where I would look

Read this thread 
http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showthread.php/2012-chevy-volt-battery-93101.html

I got my pack from
http://www.car-part.com/

Buying a complete pack gets you all the other goodies including a BMS - I'm not using a BMS - but the pack comes complete with one if you can understand the way it works 
Some of the smart people on this forum are using those BMS's

Re KennyBobby's comment
Different Chemistries have different voltages - you MUST charge to the voltage for your batteries 

Kenny is right about 3.6v being too high for some cells but the Volt ones are 4.1v


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## tortuga (Sep 11, 2017)

Thank you, will do.
I have been checking out the https://www.orionbms.com
It seems like it can utilize the old 120V charger


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## dain254 (Oct 8, 2015)

A complete Chevy Volt battery is your best bet - I'm located in the US as well and paid $1160 for my last one about a year ago. They are cheap and salvage yards are always willing to deal on them since they have no idea what else to do with them. The easiest for this application would be to run 30S2P - using the balance ports to parallel between the cells giving you 10kwh total for the 120V pack. For charging, there is a guy on here that can reprogram the Elcon charger that your ZAP probably has to the correct voltage. BMS you will want to find as well, several good setups and info on this forum for that. Good luck!


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## boekel (Nov 10, 2010)

Some other batteries to keep an eye on:

-Kia Soul: 10s and 14s modules (75Ah)
-VW e-golf: 4s and 2s modules (75Ah, from model 2017 114Ah)
-Mitshubishi Outlander PHEV: a bit small (12kWh) but easely reconfigurable (LEV40 cells, 40Ah, M6 studs on cells)

The Kia Soul has a central bms.
the VW and Outlander has a bms in the units, re-usable 

the Tesla made units are nice, but might be difficult to fit. 
-Model S is about 200Ah (6s), 
-Mercedes Benz B-class is about 110Ah, (7s)
bms protocol is known and re-usable
-Smart pack (15s), same size as B-class, but bms not(yet) re-usable


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## tortuga (Sep 11, 2017)

dain254 said:


> A complete Chevy Volt battery is your best bet - I'm located in the US as well and paid $1160 for my last one about a year ago. They are cheap and salvage yards are always willing to deal on them since they have no idea what else to do with them. The easiest for this application would be to run 30S2P - using the balance ports to parallel between the cells giving you 10kwh total for the 120V pack. For charging, there is a guy on here that can reprogram the Elcon charger that your ZAP probably has to the correct voltage. BMS you will want to find as well, several good setups and info on this forum for that. Good luck!


Good tips thank you!
The charger did not have allot of info on it. Its a 'CleanPower' CHWP-12008
Made by 'inPower'
Attached photo


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## dain254 (Oct 8, 2015)

Looks to me like a rebadged elcon - If you run "30S" Chevy Volt cells your peak voltage of the Volt batteries will be [email protected]/cell - my speculation is that charger is set to charge the lead acid nominal 120V. Someone is welcome to correct me on this but it is likely set to more like 140V or more to charge up the lead acid set, you just need to check the output voltage which will tell you if you need to have it reprogrammed. A lot of people don't charge all the way to 4.2V, including myself. 4.0-4.1 is very safe, so if your charger outputs exactly 120V or a touch more you will be in good shape to use the charge profile that is loaded.


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## tortuga (Sep 11, 2017)

boekel said:


> Some other batteries to keep an eye on:
> 
> -Kia Soul: 10s and 14s modules (75Ah)
> -VW e-golf: 4s and 2s modules (75Ah, from model 2017 114Ah)
> ...


Thank you for taking the time to put this list together.
I have not found any local Volt batteries yet so will start looking for these or order the volts off ebay.



dain254 said:


> Looks to me like a rebadged elcon - If you run "30S" Chevy Volt cells your peak voltage of the Volt batteries will be [email protected]/cell - my speculation is that charger is set to charge the lead acid nominal 120V. Someone is welcome to correct me on this but it is likely set to more like 140V or more to charge up the lead acid set, you just need to check the output voltage which will tell you if you need to have it reprogrammed. A lot of people don't charge all the way to 4.2V, including myself. 4.0-4.1 is very safe, so if your charger outputs exactly 120V or a touch more you will be in good shape to use the charge profile that is loaded.


It used to charge the leads up to 146V @ 4.5A so I am guessing I need to contact that forum member and ship it off to them?

I had a post here back in Janary ago when the batteries failed:
http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showpost.php?p=944074&postcount=1

Wait January? Wow its been awhile I got to get this thing back on the road!


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## Visionofficer (Apr 28, 2013)

tortuga said:


> Greetings all I am looking at creating a reliable replacement pack for a light weight Zap that was modified (by zap) to have a 120VDC Motor:
> Model:FB1-4001A
> Continuous rating: 19.0 kW (158A @ 120V) (25.2 hp)
> Peak output: 63.8 kW (531A @ 120V) (85.0 hp)
> ...


The best price I have been able to get is $0.85/Ah. I order straight from China, but the order needs to be a substantial volume, as the duties, shipping, and delays at USBP are the same for small orders. For a one-time buy, I would use Lithium Storage in Utah (http://www.lithiumstorage.com/index.php/en/) You will pay around $1.35/Ah, but that will include all that crap, except shipping to your house. You can get it at your address in about 5 days or less. If you can wait 120 days for a "piggy back" order, I can save you lots of money. For your mini-truck, the CALB battery in the best. I have a 180Ah pack that is 8 years old and still going strong. http://www.EV-Fleet.com


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## dain254 (Oct 8, 2015)

You might also consider if using Chevy Volt cells to bump your pack up to 36S. This will allow you to use the charger as it is if it is outputting 146V - gives you about 4.05V/cell which is about perfect. To achieve this you will need 6 of the 2kwh modules, run them 3S 2P. a 12kwh battery in a zap should get you 40-70 miles of range I'd guess obviously depending on your duty cycle. At 4.5A it will take 20hrs to fully charge, though - which I'd consider good enough!


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## tortuga (Sep 11, 2017)

dain254 said:


> You might also consider if using Chevy Volt cells to bump your pack up to 36S. This will allow you to use the charger as it is if it is outputting 146V - gives you about 4.05V/cell which is about perfect. To achieve this you will need 6 of the 2kwh modules, run them 3S 2P. a 12kwh battery in a zap should get you 40-70 miles of range I'd guess obviously depending on your duty cycle. At 4.5A it will take 20hrs to fully charge, though - which I'd consider good enough!


I am liking this idea. What do you mean by the 2kwh module?
Thank you

EDIT: nevermind I see the 2kWH is a volt component.


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

tortuga said:


> I am liking this idea. What do you mean by the 2kwh module?
> Thank you


Hi 
I'm not sure when it changed but the old Volt Battery consisted of 
Seven "2kwh modules" and two "1kwh modules"

Basically seven modules that were 12 series and 3 parallel and two modules that were 6 series and 3 parallel 

It's quite easy to take the pack apart at module level - bloody difficult to take it apart further!

The secret is to buy the compete pack - the whole battery - then you gets lots of other goodies as well

A complete pack will cost you about $2000 - but I have seen them down to $1000


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## prensel (Feb 21, 2010)

boekel said:


> Some other batteries to keep an eye on:
> 
> -Kia Soul: 10s and 14s modules (75Ah)
> -VW e-golf: 4s and 2s modules (75Ah, from model 2017 114Ah)
> -Mitshubishi Outlander PHEV: a bit small (12kWh) but easely reconfigurable (LEV40 cells, 40Ah, M6 studs on cells)



Most of these packs are way way over priced at the junkyards.
For some reason these breakers believe they're trading gold or something.



I see a lot of these 2013 packs offered for ?200/kWh and even more.
Thats a lot of money for a 5 year old battery from a junkyard with no warranty or guarantee for capacity.


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## boekel (Nov 10, 2010)

prensel said:


> Most of these packs are way way over priced at the junkyards.
> For some reason these breakers believe they're trading gold or something.
> 
> 
> ...


I never pay more than €100/kWh (except for Tesla batteries)

VW I don't care about age, never seen a 'dull' one yet. outlander: I've seen from 35Ah up to 40Ah cells

Kia is quite new


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## tortuga (Sep 11, 2017)

Duncan said:


> Hi
> I'm not sure when it changed but the old Volt Battery consisted of
> Seven "2kwh modules" and two "1kwh modules"
> 
> ...


 Thanks, I have been looking for three months nothing yet.




prensel said:


> Most of these packs are way way over priced at the junkyards.
> For some reason these breakers believe they're trading gold or something.
> 
> 
> ...


Yes I agree I found nothing so far other than one 2011 leaf pack I think they wanted 3000 USD for.


boekel said:


> I never pay more than €100/kWh (except for Tesla batteries)
> 
> VW I don't care about age, never seen a 'dull' one yet. outlander: I've seen from 35Ah up to 40Ah cells
> 
> Kia is quite new


Wow thats 117USD/kWH thats really low. Do you buy these often? And where? Shipping might be worth it at those prices.

I just discovered a large box of "dead" Makita 18V drill batteries pulling a few apart looks like they have 8 18650 cells and a little BMS board in each one.
Some of the cells are far gone and others seem fine. All I would need is 160 of these 18V little drill battery packs for a 14kWH pack 8S20P and a way to charge them.... Then I would have a totally modular system


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## boekel (Nov 10, 2010)

tortuga said:


> Wow thats 117USD/kWH thats really low. Do you buy these often? And where? Shipping might be worth it at those prices.


almost every week...scrapyards...


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## sportcoupe (Oct 19, 2010)

Visionofficer said:


> The best price I have been able to get is $0.85/Ah. I order straight from China, but the order needs to be a substantial volume, as the duties, shipping, and delays at USBP are the same for small orders.


Can you PM me the link to your source of $0.85/ AH pricing? I am after large cells, 400AH.


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