# Pouch Cell and Pack Comparison...



## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

Note:
The testing on these new cells are NOT complete, but a recent update from engineering has provided these results.
__________________________________________________

*Brand: XXXXXXXXX

*AH: 6ah

Volts: 3.7 (Nominal)

Charge
Condition: 30A

Discharge
Condition: Cont. Current - 300 amps
Peak Current - 400 amps

C - Rating: Cont. 50C
Burst 67C

Internal Resistance: 1.3 mOHM
_____________________________

Price Each: $29.99 US 

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*Brand: A123 AMP20 

*AH: 20ah

Volts: 3.3v (Nominal) 

Charge
Condition: 300A

Discharge
Condition: Cont. Current - 300 amps
Peak Current - 750 amps

C - Rating: Cont. 15C
Burst 37C

Internal Resistance: 2.0 mOHM
_____________________________

Price Each: $65.99 US

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*Brand: Dow Kokam SLPB 70205130P

*AH: 12ah

Volts: 3.7v (Nominal)

Charge
Condition: 36A

Discharge
Condition: Cont. Current - 60 amps
Peak Current - 240 amps

C - Rating: Cont. 5C
Burst 20C

Internal Resistance: ? mOHM
_____________________________

Price Each: $67.00 US


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## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

*Brand: XXXXXXXXX

*AH: 12ah (Two 6ah in parallel)

Volts: 3.7 (Nominal)

Charge
Condition: 30A (1 cell)

Discharge
Condition: Cont. Current - 600 amps
Peak Current - 800 amps

C - Rating: Cont. 50C
Burst 67C (1 cell)

Internal Resistance: 1.3 mOHM (1 cell)
_____________________________

Price: $59.98 US


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## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

*Brand: XXXXXXXX

*Volts: 144 (Nominal)
39 cells in Series

AH: 30ah 
5 cells in Parallel

Discharge
Condition: Cont. Current - 1500 amps
Peak Current - 2000 amps

Pack weight (cells only) 
29,250 grams / 64.5 lbs
_____________________________

*Costs $5,848.05*

*-----------------------------------------------------------------------------*

*Brand: A123 AMP20 

*Volts: 145v (Nominal) 
44 cells in Series

AH: 60ah
3 cells in Parallel

Discharge
Condition: Cont. Current - 900 amps
Peak Current - 2250 amp

Pack weight (cells only) 
65,472 grams / 144.5 lbs
______________________________

*Costs: $8710.68*

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*Brand: Dow Kokam SLPB 70205130P

*Volts: 144v (Nominal) 
39 cells in Series

AH: 108ah
9 cells in Parallel

Discharge
Condition: Cont. Current - 540 amps
Peak Current - 2160 amp

Pack weight (cells only) 
124,254 grams / 273 lbs
_____________________________

*Costs: $23,517.00
*


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## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

*Brand: XXXXXXXX

*Volts: 370 (Nominal)
100 cells in Series

AH: 60 
10 cells in Parallel

Discharge
Condition: Cont. Current - 3000 amps
Peak Current - 4000 amps

Pack weight (cells only) 
150,000 grams / 331 lbs 
_____________________________

*Costs $29,990.00*

*---------------------------------------*

*Brand: A123 AMP20 

*Volts: 369v (Nominal) 
112 cells in Series

AH: 100ah
5 cells in Parallel

Discharge
Condition: Cont. Current - 1500 amps
Peak Current - 3750 amp

Pack weight (cells only) 
277,760 grams / 612 lbs
______________________________

*Costs: $36,954.40*

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*Brand: Dow Kokam SLPB 70205130P

*Volts: 370v (Nominal) 
100 cells in Series

AH: 204ah
17 cells in Parallel

Discharge
Condition: Cont. Current - 1020 amps
Peak Current - 4080 amp

Pack weight (cells only) 
601,800 grams / 1326 lbs
_____________________________

*Costs: $113,900.00
*


*

*


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## Sutitan (Feb 23, 2009)

Any idea on the chemistry?


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## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

Sutitan said:


> Any idea on the chemistry?


Lithium Polymer and secret sauce!


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## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

On June 25th, 2011 the online store will accept orders for these new cells. At that time we will have final testing results ready for publishing. We plan on carrying a large inventory in Connecticut.
http://www.ecedra.com/thebatteryshop.html


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## 9852 (Jan 17, 2010)

pouch cell, building it my self, in a small version first of course.

http://ocelltech.en.alibaba.com/product/296556056-209562658/lifepo4_3_2V10Ah.html


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## Jozzer (Mar 29, 2009)

LithiumaniacsEVRacing said:


> Lithium Polymer and secret sauce!


 Turnigy Nano.


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## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

Jozzer said:


> Turnigy Nano.


Same manufacture, but different battery.


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## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

billhac said:


> pouch cell, building it my self, in a small version first of course.
> 
> http://ocelltech.en.alibaba.com/product/296556056-209562658/lifepo4_3_2V10Ah.html


Nice little battery, but it doesn't match our C-Rating for discharging.


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## 9852 (Jan 17, 2010)

you are right but its a cool battery.


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## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

The new Hi-Power pouch cells have passed all engineering tests, we now have a huge order being shipped to the USA. The store is open:
http://www.ecedra.com/thebatteryshop.html


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## Roy Von Rogers (Mar 21, 2009)

Lets see, that would be $480 for a near 100ah cell, I can get a 400ah TS for that money.

So for the average DIY its not very economical solution, unless your in to racing.

Roy


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## Guest (Jun 24, 2011)

Yes, for racing the tiny pouch cell looks like the way to go. Normal every day driving? Not a chance. Just to costly and only about 500 cycles. Not much better than a good lead battery. But can belt out a whopping amount in a short time. Perfect for 1/4 mile racing. Pretty much a niche battery. RC or 1/4 mile racing.


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## Jan (Oct 5, 2009)

Speaking of drag racing, why aren't these kind of things not used? Not enough energy?

http://www.sonicelectronix.com/item_37264_SPL-CP-20X.html


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## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

You guys are correct, our Hi-Power Cells were designed for performance applications. Very light and very powerful. Excellent for drag racing, motorcycle racing, boat racing, etc.....I will also use them for my 3000GT for local driving, 60AH with enormous power works great for local driving.

*Herewin*
*Hi-Power Lithium Polymer cell*
*P68100120F-50C*

Volts: 370 (Nominal)
100 cells in Series

AH: 60 
10 cells in Parallel

Discharge
Condition: Cont. Current - 3000 amps
Peak Current - 4000 amps

Pack weight (cells only) 
150,000 grams / 331 lbs 

You will see no voltage sag in this style pack in my 3000GT with a Soliton 1 with an 11"HV motor.


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## Guest (Jun 24, 2011)

My only issue with them for normal driving is price per charge/discharge cycles. For my daily driver I'd prefer to use the TS cells that have an expected life of 3k to 5k cycle life. Far better than 500. I don't need racing power from light to light as I don't race on the street but on the track I will want them. 

Lightning in a bag so to speak.


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## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

gottdi said:


> My only issue with them for normal driving is price per charge/discharge cycles. For my daily driver I'd prefer to use the TS cells that have an expected life of 3k to 5k cycle life. Far better than 500. I don't need racing power from light to light as I don't race on the street but on the track I will want them.
> 
> Lightning in a bag so to speak.


LOL, "Lightning in a bag" what a great selling promo. For the daily driver I would recommend TS cells, but if you want to save weight and burn some rubber you need the Hi-Power cells. Just like any other racing parts (including ICE racing parts) they are built for hard performance not duration and longevity. In the racing world we look for power! Most ICE for racing only last one season.


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## frodus (Apr 12, 2008)

I'd advise against using the name "hi-power" for these cells. It may confuse people with the brand "hi-power".... which are lower quality, low C-rate cells.


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## Bowser330 (Jun 15, 2008)

lithiumaniacsevracing said:


> you guys are correct, our hi-power cells were designed for performance applications. Very light and very powerful. Excellent for drag racing, motorcycle racing, boat racing, etc.....i will also use them for my 3000gt for local driving, 60ah with enormous power works great for local driving.
> 
> *herewin*
> *hi-power lithium polymer cell*
> ...


(1000 cells = 30,000$) Is there any discount for quantity purchase?

PLEASE dyno the 3000gt I would like to see the power its putting down and at what peak RPM!!!

If i remember correctly the soliton-1 has a peak input V of 340V, so with a peak charge V of 420V from 100 cells you would need to tailor that pack down to 80cells in series, 80 * 4.2 = 336V, so your nominal V would be 80 * 3.7 = 296V....right? or maybe you already have another solution...


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## rochesterricer (Jan 5, 2011)

So these are right around 150 Wh/kg? 

These might not be bad for a street motorcycle conversion. The cycle life would be less of an issue there, since I tend to only ride once or twice a week and only during the warm months. Would probably end up being less than 100 cycles per year.


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## frodus (Apr 12, 2008)

rochesterricer said:


> So these are right around 150 Wh/kg?
> 
> These might not be bad for a street motorcycle conversion. The cycle life would be less of an issue there, since I tend to only ride once or twice a week and only during the warm months. Would probably end up being less than 100 cycles per year.


at ~$30 a cell, be prepared to spend a good amount on cells.

It'd be great for a drag race bike, but not sure about a commuter/fun bike.



Hey Ron, got any cells for me to test?


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## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

frodus said:


> at ~$30 a cell, be prepared to spend a good amount on cells.
> 
> It'd be great for a drag race bike, but not sure about a commuter/fun bike.
> 
> ...


I will have the first shipment in about 45 days, taking orders now. I can send you a few for testing, you will be amazed! Let's say the C-Rating we published is very conservative.


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## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

Bowser330 said:


> (1000 cells = 30,000$) Is there any discount for quantity purchase?
> 
> PLEASE dyno the 3000gt I would like to see the power its putting down and at what peak RPM!!!
> 
> If i remember correctly the soliton-1 has a peak input V of 340V, so with a peak charge V of 420V from 100 cells you would need to tailor that pack down to 80cells in series, 80 * 4.2 = 336V, so your nominal V would be 80 * 3.7 = 296V....right? or maybe you already have another solution...


I have the last 11"HV motor coming from Netgain next week, when we install it in the 3000GT I will publish the dyno results. I will look at the Soliton 1's peak input voltage, thought is was higher.


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## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

frodus said:


> I'd advise against using the name "hi-power" for these cells. It may confuse people with the brand "hi-power".... which are lower quality, low C-rate cells.


Great input, forgot that name has been around. We have changed the cell name on our website to Ultra-Power! Sounds better, in China they will be called a different name. I am the exclusive dealer for these cells in the USA, I have a little pull.


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## rochesterricer (Jan 5, 2011)

frodus said:


> at ~$30 a cell, be prepared to spend a good amount on cells.
> 
> It'd be great for a drag race bike, but not sure about a commuter/fun bike.
> 
> ...


100 cells would be 3,000 dollars. That doesn't sound bad to me at all, especially since I doubt I could even use that many on a bike.


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## frodus (Apr 12, 2008)

rochesterricer said:


> 100 cells would be 3,000 dollars. That doesn't sound bad to me at all, especially since I doubt I could even use that many on a bike.


100cells at 6Ah and 3.7V is what, 2.2kwh pack. You'll have no trouble fitting that into a bike, but the range is only gonna be about 20 miles.


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## rochesterricer (Jan 5, 2011)

frodus said:


> 100cells at 6Ah and 3.7V is what, 2.2kwh pack. You'll have no trouble fitting that into a bike, but the range is only gonna be about 20 miles.


Woops, I think I misread some numbers.


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## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

frodus said:


> 100cells at 6Ah and 3.7V is what, 2.2kwh pack. You'll have no trouble fitting that into a bike, but the range is only gonna be about 20 miles.


These cells are designed for speed, light weight and power, not duration. 
It would be the quickest 20 miles you ever went! 

Many people are interested, i am already getting orders. Wow, when I start my Google Adwords advertising sales will fly. My profit on these cells is very minimal, it's not about the money, it's about bringing a new racing product to the market. Being a drag racer, I hope all EV manufacturers will start building parts directed more towards EV racing. Soliton 2 Big Boy 2500 amps would be nice, or a DC motors that can handle 450 volts. The future is coming fast!


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## Bowser330 (Jun 15, 2008)

LithiumaniacsEVRacing said:


> These cells are designed for speed, light weight and power, not duration.
> It would be the quickest 20 miles you ever went!
> 
> Many people are interested, i am already getting orders. Wow, when I start my Google Adwords advertising sales will fly. My profit on these cells is very minimal, it's not about the money, it's about bringing a new racing product to the market. Being a drag racer, I hope all EV manufacturers will start building parts directed more towards EV racing. Soliton 2 Big Boy 2500 amps would be nice, or a DC motors that can handle 450 volts. The future is coming fast!


+1000 right on!


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## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

LithiumaniacsEVRacing said:


> On June 25th, 2011 the online store will accept orders for these new cells. At that time we will have final testing results ready for publishing. We plan on carrying a large inventory in Connecticut.
> http://www.ecedra.com/thebatteryshop.html


I have just received an email from china that engineering testing continued and new testing results are now complete (from my sponsor). He did not give me any technical information, just said the results are said to be very very good, I will update the website and publish the results when I receive directly from engineering, most likely late tonight. I will also get pictures.


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## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)




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## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)




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## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

More info and pictures coming later today!


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## LiFe (May 24, 2010)

LithiumaniacsEVRacing said:


> Great input, forgot that name has been around. We have changed the cell name on our website to Ultra-Power! Sounds better, in China they will be called a different name. I am the exclusive dealer for these cells in the USA, I have a little pull.


Wow, Don Harmon would be proud Ron. You've come a long way.

You need to dream up with a little furry mascot now.


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## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

LiFe said:


> Wow, Don Harmon would be proud Ron. You've come a long way.
> 
> You need to dream up with a little furry mascot now.


So, now LiFeBatt is commenting on the competition. You need to build a more powerful cell to post on this thread. As I remember correctly the LifeBatt cell has a very low C-rating. 

"*Don Harmon* is currently CEO / President of LiFeBATT, Inc. in Danville, Virginia. LiFeBATT was formed in 2007 and is a C-Corp. privately held *Lithium*-ion"


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## MN Driver (Sep 29, 2009)

With cells like these, I'm having a hard time ever considering supercaps. I'm considering an application where I could use 50-55 of these, less than the price of supercaps and much higher energy density both by weight and volume. I'll be waiting for the official results, but based on what you've posted already these will be way over the specs I would need. I like the new Ultra-Power name for these. Good luck!


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## EVfun (Mar 14, 2010)

How thick are those tabs? It looks like 300 amps "continuous" (about 1 minute) might be a tad optimistic. A 5p45s string could be a lot of fun!


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## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

EVfun said:


> How thick are those tabs? It looks like 300 amps "continuous" (about 1 minute) might be a tad optimistic. A 5p45s string could be a lot of fun!


The tabs are 2mm thick and 30mm wide, they are designed for high power discharging. I have learned Googles of information on pouch cells in the last 6 months. Have you ever noticed most high power cells are designed longer than wider? The closer the "material" is to the cell tab the higher you can build the C-Rating and the cell will discharge cooler. The internal resistance and cell shape control temperature. The wider larger AH cells produce lower C-Ratings.


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## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

MN Driver said:


> With cells like these, I'm having a hard time ever considering supercaps. I'm considering an application where I could use 50-55 of these, less than the price of supercaps and much higher energy density both by weight and volume. I'll be waiting for the official results, but based on what you've posted already these will be way over the specs I would need. I like the new Ultra-Power name for these. Good luck!


Thank you. I am currently building a list of buyers for our first shipment of 5000 cells on July 30, 2011. Every 30 days I will receive a large shipment from China. I want a huge inventory in the USA!


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## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

I have a few cells being shipped air-freight from China, will arrive Fri or Tues. We need cells in hand to build our modular battery boxes.

Team Haiyin EV Racing will be racing with these cells soon after July 30, 2011. Our Camaro "Warp Factor II" will lose 300lbs of battery weight with these new lighter cells. No more balance wires, just a simple BMS. 

Also, on another subject, our Gear Vendors overdrive unit will arrive Wensday of next week, just in time for our Ohio races.


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## Rich02si (Feb 22, 2011)

How well do they handle voltage sag during discharge?


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## Guest (Jul 1, 2011)

I guess we will find out soon enough. It might be a good thing to know before mass selling of these. I'd hate to find that they sag hard under hard acceleration. I am sure they will sag as all of them do but hopefully not too bad. Of course it depends upon the voltage of the system too. Higher the voltage the better.


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## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

Rich02si said:


> How well do they handle voltage sag during discharge?


Very well, I will post graphs soon. Trying to modify into english. I am also giving free samples to a few very well known battery techs. I will video tape cell tests with my own equipment for Youtube and our website.


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## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

gottdi said:


> I guess we will find out soon enough. It might be a good thing to know before mass selling of these. I'd hate to find that they sag hard under hard acceleration. I am sure they will sag as all of them do but hopefully not too bad. Of course it depends upon the voltage of the system too. Higher the voltage the better.


Not only the higher voltage relates to voltage sag, but the higher the C-rating (amps/ah) also adds to voltage sag. In all, the larger the pack (ah) with high C-rating you will see very little voltage sag. These cells are built tough, with little resistance to keep them cooler, another factor in voltage sag is cell heat.


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## Rich02si (Feb 22, 2011)

Well being 3.7, still with a drop will be higher then a phosphates nominal


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## frodus (Apr 12, 2008)

Rich02si said:


> Well being 3.7, still with a drop will be higher then a phosphates nominal


that doesn't mean anything. Voltage drop is important because the more you drop, the closer you get to your cut-off voltage. You're trying to compare two different chemistries that have 2 different voltage ranges.


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## Rich02si (Feb 22, 2011)

Im comparing two different options with referance to power-weight. And price for that matter. If i cited agm then sure throw your arms up.


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## Rich02si (Feb 22, 2011)

I am excited about these cells! Im looking to an sprint kart. And these are great option for lightweight high continuous discharge.


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## frodus (Apr 12, 2008)

Rich02si said:


> Im comparing two different options with referance to power-weight. And price for that matter. If i cited agm then sure throw your arms up.


Well, appologies...... You didn't actually reference power-weight, you mentioned voltage drop. 

I just wanted to make sure everyone isn't misunderstanding your statement. Compare two cells with the same percentage voltage drop at 20C.... Lets say you draw 20C and you have a 20% drop on a 3.7V cell, you're at 2.96V, right? but if you have a comparable lifepo4 cell (maybe A123), and at 20C and you drop 20%, you're at 2.56V.

So lets say you have a 118.4 Vnom (32-cell) pack of lipo, and compare it to a 118.4Vnom (37 cell) pack of lifepo4. They're both at the same nominal voltage. Now, lets say you draw the same 20C and each cell drops 20%. The lipo pack drops to ~94.72V (change of 23.68V). The Lifepo4 pack drops to ~94.72V (change of 23.68V). The delta is the the same amount whether it's Lipo or Lifepo4.

Just trying to make sure that one statement that one person makes isn't generalized and distributed amongst the new guys. It's important to know that when you design a pack, you design it around voltage and amps and Ah. To compare a 32 cell pack of lipo to a 32 cell of lifepo4 isn't telling you anything. You need to compare them at the same voltage and compare the voltage drop. You can compare 32 cells of each together, but then you have to compare % voltate drop. 


I can't wait to get one or two of these to test. I'll compare it back to back with a couple cells I have (A123, headway and whatever else I can find), at the same rates, up to ~160A. Sure it's only 10C, but that tells you a lot, especially when you see the graphs at 1, 5 and 10C, and how they change.


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## Bowser330 (Jun 15, 2008)

LithiumaniacsEVRacing said:


> Not only the higher voltage relates to voltage sag, but the higher the C-rating (amps/ah) also adds to voltage sag. In all, the larger the pack (ah) with high C-rating you will see very little voltage sag. These cells are built tough, with little resistance to keep them cooler, another factor in voltage sag is cell heat.


can't wait for these cells to get tried out by you and your supporters/friends/colleagues!


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## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

frodus said:


> Well, appologies...... You didn't actually reference power-weight, you mentioned voltage drop.
> 
> I just wanted to make sure everyone isn't misunderstanding your statement. Compare two cells with the same percentage voltage drop at 20C.... Lets say you draw 20C and you have a 20% drop on a 3.7V cell, you're at 2.96V, right? but if you have a comparable lifepo4 cell (maybe A123), and at 20C and you drop 20%, you're at 2.56V.
> 
> ...


Travis,

I have a few cells arriving anyday so I can start building our modular battery boxes. We will offer different sizes for all applications. I am interested in a reliable, but simple BMS system for these modular boxes, please send me you recommendations. 

I will send you and a few "other" battery techs a few cells to test. We would like to compare all "private" testing labs with the factory results. I am told this is one of the best cells Haiyin has ever produced, it compares with the leader in Lipo's Turnigy. Haiyin Technology CO. Ltd. is a huge state of the art facility in China. A friend of mine from the Endless Sphere forum (must keep his name private, his request) has visited the facility and was amazed of the size and capability this factory has. He said the cafeteria is as large enough to hold 3000 employees. He visited China searching for a company to produce their cells needed, after visiting most of the Chinese facilities, Haiyin blows them all away. He also stated Haiyin officials allowed his team to view the entire plant, while other companies only limited viewings. They supply most of the cells in China used for vehicles, motorcycles, and scooters. Very large company. I am proud to be part of this growing corporation.

One thing I will say Travis, is I am told these cells will discharge at 100C, they were very conservative in publishing the test results. I worked really hard to convince Haiyin we need a new performance pouch cell, I hope all enjoy.


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## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

Bowser330 said:


> can't wait for these cells to get tried out by you and your supporters/friends/colleagues!


All test results will be public and published.


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

LithiumaniacsEVRacing said:


> All test results will be public and published.


That was the same thing you said in this thread http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forum...ro-dragster-project-official-tread-53001.html 

But that didn't happen. "All info" turned out to be your propaganda and when members inquired about results, you just insulted them and provided nothing, as you will likely do here.

Why isn't this thread in http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/forumdisplay.php/parts-vendors-9.html It is nothing more than a sales pitch for your business.


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## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

major said:


> That was the same thing you said in this thread http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forum...ro-dragster-project-official-tread-53001.html
> 
> But that didn't happen. "All info" turned out to be your propaganda and when members inquired about results, you just insulted them and provided nothing, as you will likely do here.
> 
> Why isn't this thread in http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/forumdisplay.php/parts-vendors-9.html It is nothing more than a sales pitch for your business.


Major,

We do not get along, I know your nose is up NEDRA's rear, so why are you even posting here? I said I am willing to provide a few with test samples, if you think that is "propaganda" than you are very bias and incorrect. The results have been posted, what are you looking for the graphs? I will try and post them for you. If your goal is to hurt my image or business, payback will be a pleasure. Now back-off!


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## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

I may have to print the graph then scan into a picture, but this I was able to cut and paste:

discharge rate ---[FONT=??]1C----[FONT=??]20C-----[FONT=??]25C------[FONT=??]30C-------[FONT=??]33C[/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][FONT=??][FONT=??][FONT=??][FONT=??]
[/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT]discharge current/A----- [FONT=??]6----[FONT=??]120------[FONT=??]150-----[FONT=??]180------[FONT=??]200[/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][FONT=??][FONT=??][FONT=??][FONT=??]
[/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT]middle voltage/ V -----[FONT=??]3.782------[FONT=??]3.546-----[FONT=??]3.493-----[FONT=??]3.438-----[FONT=??]3.374[/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][FONT=??][FONT=??][FONT=??][FONT=??]
[/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT]discharge capacity/mAh -----[FONT=??]6417-----[FONT=??]6260------[FONT=??]6175-------[FONT=??]6090------[FONT=??]5950[/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][FONT=??][FONT=??][FONT=??][FONT=??]
[/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT]discharge efficiency -----[FONT=??]100.0%------[FONT=??]97.6%------[FONT=??]96.2%-------[FONT=??]94.9%----[FONT=??]92.7%[/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][FONT=??][FONT=??][FONT=??][FONT=??]​
[/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT]
​initial internal resistance /mO -----[FONT=??]1.4[/FONT]
end internal resistance/ mO -----[FONT=??]1.3[/FONT]
IR change rate [FONT=??]-7.1% ----[FONT=??]6.5[/FONT][/FONT][FONT=??]
[/FONT]initial thickness /mm----- [FONT=??]6.65[/FONT]
end thickness /mm ------[FONT=??]2.3%[/FONT]
thickness change rate

The specs they sent me tested only up to 200 amps, I will gladly send someone a cell to continue data up to 300 to 400 amps.​


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## Batterypoweredtoad (Feb 5, 2008)

Ron, what is it with you and NEDRA?


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## Bowser330 (Jun 15, 2008)

So would it be safe to estimate the 3.7V cell wouldn't drop lower than 3.0V @ 400A draw? (67C)

Soooo if someone were so inclined to buy a Netgain Warp Drive 360V 1600A controller....and were to build a pack of these cells that was..85S x 4P (127lbs)

85 x 4.2 = 357V (max is 360)
4 x 6 = 24AH
85 X 3.7V = 314V Nominal
85 X 3.0V = 255V Sagged @ 67C (400A per cell)

255V * 1500A = 382KW = 512HP


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## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)




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## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)




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## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)




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## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)




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## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

Great Battery Info:

LITHIUM POLYMER BATTERY TECHNOLOGY

Sonata’s hybrid system stores its electrical charge in a 270V lithium polymer rechargeable battery (5.3Ah/270V) that surpasses existing nickel-metal hydride and pending lithium-ion applications. Lithium polymer batteries are more durable and space-efficient than other hybrid batteries. They are also more weight-efficient. The Sonata Hybrid’s battery pack weighs just 95.9 pounds versus the Camry Hybrid’s 123.9 pounds. The compact battery pack resides in the forward portion of the trunk to maximize cargo space.
Lithium Polymer Batteries vs. Nickel-Metal Hydride Batteries

Compared with nickel-metal hydride batteries, lithium polymer batteries deliver the same power with 20-30 percent less weight, 40 percent less volume and 10 percent greater efficiency over the nickel-metal hydride batteries found in today’s hybrids. Lithium polymer batteries offer 1.7 times more energy density than nickel-metal hydride batteries, allowing Hyundai engineers to devote less space and weight to the battery pack. Lithium polymer batteries hold their charge 1.25 times longer. Lithium polymer batteries also are more resistant to changes in temperature, which improves cycle life. Additionally, lithium polymer’s self-discharge rate is less than a third of a nickel-metal hydride battery.

Lithium Polymer Batteries vs. Lithium-ion Batteries

Lithium-polymer has significant advantages over lithium-ion, including higher energy density and lower manufacturing costs. Lithium polymer is more resistant to physical damage and can handle more charge-discharge cycles before storage capacity begins to degrade. Lithium polymer technology also offers significant advantages in thermal robustness and safety.

A key difference between traditional lithium ion batteries and Hyundai’s lithium polymer battery solution is the overall packaging of the cell – the anode, the cathode, the electrolyte, and the encasement material. Traditional lithium-ion batteries, like those found in laptops, use what’s known as the 18650 cell format. In this format, each mass-produced cell is 18 mm. in diameter and 65 mm. tall, which is a bit larger than a “AA” battery. Each of these small metal cylinders is filled with a liquid electrolyte that facilitates the movement of lithium ions across anode and cathode, creating the battery current.

Traditional lithium-ion batteries are easy to handle, withstand mild internal pressures, and have been around in various forms since 1991. That means a manufacturing infrastructure is in place, and economies of scale are reasonably high. However, they do have several disadvantages. For example, their cylindrical shape reduces packaging efficiency and they are surprisingly complicated to manufacture since they have so many small parts. These small parts make them robust to thermal fluctuations and add significant cost and weight to the overall battery system. Cell-to-cell consistency also is extremely critical in a [COLOR=#0000ff !important]vehicle battery[/COLOR] package, since the pack is only as robust as its weakest cell. Traditional lithium-ion batteries have considerable cell-to-cell variation, while Hyundai’s lithium polymer batteries deliver outstanding cell-to-cell consistency.

Lithium polymer technology uses a completely different approach. Rather than using a liquid electrolyte, which requires a robust metal casing, lithium polymer batteries use a polymer gel as the electrolyte, which allows the use of a thinner and lighter aluminum-walled encasement, or pouch. Inside each lithium polymer cell, the cathode, separator, and anode are laminated together, enabling much simpler and more reliable manufacturing. This allows the battery pack to be about 20 percent smaller than a lithium-ion battery pack, making it much easier to change the cell footprint to fit the nooks and crannies of available vehicle space.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

You aren't selling LG Chem cells.


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## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

JRP3 said:


> You aren't selling LG Chem cells.


The article was posted in support of lithium polymer pouch cells, I never said Haiyin was LG Chem. Haiyin is a much larger company.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

The specs of one company's cells don't apply to another companies just because they are similar chemistry. The LG cells claim higher cycle life than LiCo, while your cells show similar cycle life as LiCo. Your cells probably have much higher C rate than the LG cells. So basically that article has nothing to do with the cell you are selling.


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## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

JRP3 said:


> The specs of one company's cells don't apply to another companies just because they are similar chemistry. The LG cells claim higher cycle life than LiCo, while your cells show similar cycle life as LiCo. Your cells probably have much higher C rate than the LG cells. So basically that article has nothing to do with the cell you are selling.


The similarity is that they both use a pouch style cell over a cylindrical cell. I mentioned nothing about chemistry.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Many companies use pouch cells, with different chemistries even. It seems rather obvious that the article you copied has no real relevance to the cells you are selling. Thanks anyway.


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## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

JRP3 said:


> Many companies use pouch cells, with different chemistries even. It seems rather obvious that the article you copied has no real relevance to the cells you are selling. Thanks anyway.


I will be posting many more articles on the benefits of pouch cells over cylindrical cells, will you stay and police them all?


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## Batterypoweredtoad (Feb 5, 2008)

LithiumaniacsEVRacing said:


> I will be posting many more articles on the benefits of pouch cells over cylindrical cells, will you stay and police them all?


As long as you don't mind me posting articles about how fast Greyhounds are to encourage people to buy my prize racing Beagles.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

LithiumaniacsEVRacing said:


> I will be posting many more articles on the benefits of pouch cells over cylindrical cells, will you stay and police them all?



Nope, won't be reading them either since talking about another product other than yours is useless information and tells us nothing about your product  Feel free to post as much irrelevant information as you want, it's your thread.


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## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

Haiyin Technology Co., Ltd. Shenzhen was established in 2004, is headquartered in Shenzhen, branch office in Dongguan Tangxia. The company mainly produces auto-power lithium-ion polymer batteries and lithium ion battery consumer. The company has fixed assets of 6 million yuan, the industrial park covers an area of 50,000 square meters, building area of 40,000 square meters. Design Nissan 100 000 Ah battery, battery 100,000 consumer safety, the safety of high-power battery 100,000 hours. 

The company has formed more than 40,000 Nissan bulk polymer ion battery, more than 100,000 mobile phone battery production scale, to become China's leading polymer lithium-ion battery suppliers. 
Our products have passed UL, CE, CB and related product safety certification and the EU Directive RoSH environmental certification. Quality management system by UKAS ISO9001: 2008 quality management system certification, in May 2006 of the "Shenzhen High-tech Enterprise". The company has a first-class R & D team, formed as the leading Central South University, Professor Lee and by the doctors, masters and bachelor composed of more than 100 professional engineers. Professor Lee presided over the completion of the project "high energy density, high security key materials for lithium-ion batteries and their manufacturing technology," won the State Science and Technology Progress Award 2008 Award. Polymer lithium ion battery company has been the application of electric vehicle batteries to achieve a breakthrough. Hong Kong University of Science and Technology with major projects Shenzhen and Hong Kong in cooperation with the Central South University Chan Xueyan project cooperation items, made a sustained breakthrough in technology research and innovation capacity has been further enhanced. 
The spirit of "profits first, the full benefit-sharing, maximize social benefits," business philosophy, the company focus on "people oriented", respect for talent, reuse talent. With a large number of sea-profit science and technology dedicated hard work, unity and struggle of high-tech talent and management elites, grip pulse of the times, manner, so the high ground occupied by the industry.

http://www.herewin.com/en_spzs.asp


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## Jozzer (Mar 29, 2009)

Not seen any cycle life info in the thread in fact, you are aware that these types of cells used to the max will only perform for 100 cycles or less?
Used more conservativly perhaps 250-300 cycles to 80%. Considering your favorable comparisons to much more proven cells I think this is an important point. LG and A123 will both manage thousands of cycles..
(and yes, I have used them firsthand, and have test results from some 15000 cells made by this company)

Edited to add, the reason I have 15000 charge/discharge results is that QC is not good enough for EV use, roughly 5% of cells perform badly and would cause problems if placed in a large pack with other cells. 
Make sure you learn how to test them yourself before taking orders!


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## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

Jozzer said:


> Not seen any cycle life info in the thread in fact, you are aware that these types of cells used to the max will only perform for 100 cycles or less?
> Used more conservativly perhaps 250-300 cycles to 80%. Considering your favorable comparisons to much more proven cells I think this is an important point. LG and A123 will both manage thousands of cycles..
> (and yes, I have used them firsthand, and have test results from some 15000 cells made by this company)
> 
> ...


If you beat the heck out of the cells and drain 80 to 90% everytime, yes the life cycle is around 100. Nobody is going to abuse a battery in that condition if you build your pack properly. The cells will last 500 to 1500 cycles if discharged normally. You can use the full amps these cells produce without fully discharging. 

A123 Amp20 cells will only last in the 100's of cycles if abused this way, and if used normally the max a Amp20 will give you is 1500 to 2000 cycles. Now keep in mind, these cells (LG & A123) produce a much lower C-Rating than Haiyin Ultra-Power Cells, and cost much more.

If you were to speak with an engineer in battery design technology, he will explain the cells with less ah create a higher C-Rating and better performance. This fact is due to the "material" is closer to the cell tab, when you build a larger ah cell and the cell contains more "material" and is much larger in design, this causes a lower C-Rating because of the distance to the cell tabs. For furthur information on pouch cell designs you can ask "Live for Physics" Luke on the Endless-Sphere forum.


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## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

Jozzer said:


> Not seen any cycle life info in the thread in fact, you are aware that these types of cells used to the max will only perform for 100 cycles or less?
> Used more conservativly perhaps 250-300 cycles to 80%. Considering your favorable comparisons to much more proven cells I think this is an important point. LG and A123 will both manage thousands of cycles..
> (and yes, I have used them firsthand, and have test results from some 15000 cells made by this company)
> 
> ...


Just another point, we have all the test results from the producer, and have our own battery engineer testing in Connecticut. As to date, the cells that we have in our possession have test results that match the results from the producer. Even better news is we have discharged these cells over the 400 amps with no problems. As I stated before, we will send out sample cells to who we feel can test properly for their own "peace of mind".


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## Jozzer (Mar 29, 2009)

So you have done cycle life tests already or you are just guessing? 
FYI I know Luke well, have been testing cells for many years myself, and was also the person who first put you onto this company when you were going to buy Headways!

It was you are talked of using a small light pack, which means it will be hit hard and drained fast. I can tell you I have tested Nano and 20C cells from this supplier at many discharge rates and DOD's, and have a wealth of data showing that cycle life is not comparable to the cells you are trying to compare with in this thread. My point was just that if you are going to compare apples and oranges, at least supply all the data!

You are just about to start selling cells from a vendor that I have been selling cells from for 2 years, if your not interested in my experience that's your choice, others may be.


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## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

Jozzer said:


> So you have done cycle life tests already or you are just guessing?
> FYI I know Luke well, have been testing cells for many years myself, and was also the person who first put you onto this company when you were going to buy Headways!
> 
> It was you are talked of using a small light pack, which means it will be hit hard and drained fast. I can tell you I have tested Nano and 20C cells from this supplier at many discharge rates and DOD's, and have a wealth of data showing that cycle life is not comparable to the cells you are trying to compare with in this thread. My point was just that if you are going to compare apples and oranges, at least supply all the data!
> ...


Great! So, if you know Luke then you would also agree Haiyin/Herewin produces some of the Worlds finest lithium batteries, and they are the largest producer in China.

How can you comment on cycle life (since I already published the specs) if I am the first in th USA to even test one of these superior cells? My pack is being built for 60ah, so cycle life will last much longer.


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## Jozzer (Mar 29, 2009)

LithiumaniacsEVRacing said:


> Great! So, if you know Luke then you would also agree Haiyin/Herewin produces some of the Worlds finest lithium batteries, and they are the largest producer in China.
> 
> How can you comment on cycle life (since I already published the specs) if I am the first in th USA to even test one of these superior cells? My pack is being built for 60ah, so cycle life will last much longer.


Actually no, I would agree that they make the highest discharge rate LiPo cells that perform very well, but I would also say that have amoungst the highest failure rates of any cells I have bulk tested, and the lowest cycle life too. If you are going to be touting these cells as the best thing since sliced bread you should at least be forthright about thier shortcomings, that is, if you actually understand what those shortcomings really mean, both to yourself and your customers. I've tested thier 15C, 20C, 25C and 90C cells.

FYI, I am not in the USA, and had been speaking to them about producing a more suitable cell for EV's for some time. I believe your "superior" cell is actually in the new pack they are offering here ($41 for 2 in series).


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## rochesterricer (Jan 5, 2011)

LithiumaniacsEVRacing said:


> For furthur information on pouch cell designs you can ask "Live for Physics" Luke on the Endless-Sphere forum.


Oh my God, I know Luke! I had no idea he was on the EV forums now. He and I used to butt heads on IC engine forums years ago, back when Endyn still had a forum. Small world.


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## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

Jozzer said:


> Actually no, I would agree that they make the highest discharge rate LiPo cells that perform very well, but I would also say that have amoungst the highest failure rates of any cells I have bulk tested, and the lowest cycle life too. If you are going to be touting these cells as the best thing since sliced bread you should at least be forthright about thier shortcomings, that is, if you actually understand what those shortcomings really mean, both to yourself and your customers. I've tested thier 15C, 20C, 25C and 90C cells.
> 
> FYI, I am not in the USA, and had been speaking to them about producing a more suitable cell for EV's for some time. I believe your "superior" cell is actually in the new pack they are offering here ($41 for 2 in series).


Wow, what a pile of hogwash. Haiyin products are the finest produced with the least failure rates in the business. A major part of their company produces RC cells that are listed the BEST out of all the competition. Turnigy Nano-Techs, just one of hundreds of their products, is rated the highest in all RC battery applications. I dare you to bring those false accusations to the Endless-Sphere forum, they will eat you alive for such a dishonest comment. 

I know you are not in the USA, and trust me, you never seen this cell, it is fresh off the line. If you did you would know it is much different than any other cell they have ever produced. FYI they do not sell this cell in series.


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## Jozzer (Mar 29, 2009)

Ron, if you go and look on ES you'll see I'm a regular there, and if you dig back you'll see that I have been publishing results of cells for years. I also published results about cycle life there that others have confirmed.
You will also see, that many buyers have had packs DOA.

I dare you to do a little research and gain a little experience before slamming others.
Did you not hear me say how many packs I have tested from this supplier? I actually doubt there is anyone else outside of the factory who has tested so many so diligently. How many cells have you bought and tested from them? How many years have you been testing cells for EV's?

For the record, Haiyin make some of my favorite batteries, I have reccomended them far and wide (not least to you int he first place!). Even though I do buy and sell their products however, I don't like to see them being compared overfavorably with other manufacturers who have products that are much better in many other criteria.
I think you'll find Luke will agree..


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## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

Jozzer said:


> Ron, if you go and look on ES you'll see I'm a regular there, and if you dig back you'll see that I have been publishing results of cells for years. I also published results about cycle life there that others have confirmed.
> You will also see, that many buyers have had packs DOA.
> 
> I dare you to do a little research and gain a little experience before slamming others.
> ...


Like every company, they produce a average cell for the low budget buyer, and a high-end cell for the performance buyer. All their performance cells are built with great quality, I have over 700 of their cells in my current battery pack, I have beat the heck out of this pack with not one failure from any cell. It is obvious we disagree on certain points, that is fine. Who are you on the ES forum?


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## Jozzer (Mar 29, 2009)

Yes, as I say, I have tested cells from all ranges they offer to date, and have used packs made fo them in all my everyday vehicles, as well as on multiple racebikes on the track for 2 years. If I had not have vetted each cell then not single pack would have not had a weak or potentially dangerous cell amoungst all the great ones. If you have not weeded out those cells carefully in your pack before now I would suggest you have the perfect opportunity to prove me wrong/right and perhaps save your vehicle in the process!

I'm not in disagreement about these cells probably being the very best cell you could put in your drag car right now...but please, don't try to tell me that they will deliver 100% quality assured cells that you don't need to even bother checking before making 4000A rated packs

I am Jozzer also on ES of course.

Anyway, enough for me, just wanted to see a balanced view on the thread


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Thank you Jozzer for posting your extensive experience. It's good to have real world data as opposed to marketing hype from someone with little experience. Once again Ron acts in an unprofessional manner because someone with more experience tells him something he doesn't want to hear. Ron, will you ever learn?


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## Guest (Jul 7, 2011)

It does take time to learn. Gotta give every one a break because none of us came into this knowing it all.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Of course, but most of us didn't also come with the attitude that we already knew it all.


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## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

Jozzer said:


> Yes, as I say, I have tested cells from all ranges they offer to date, and have used packs made fo them in all my everyday vehicles, as well as on multiple racebikes on the track for 2 years. If I had not have vetted each cell then not single pack would have not had a weak or potentially dangerous cell amoungst all the great ones. If you have not weeded out those cells carefully in your pack before now I would suggest you have the perfect opportunity to prove me wrong/right and perhaps save your vehicle in the process!
> 
> I'm not in disagreement about these cells probably being the very best cell you could put in your drag car right now...but please, don't try to tell me that they will deliver 100% quality assured cells that you don't need to even bother checking before making 4000A rated packs
> 
> ...


Jozzer,

You have not tested this cell, I know that from speaking with Haiyin a few minutes ago, they do not even know you. You may have purchased some RC cells in the past and have done some testing, but I have read your history on ES and know what the truth is. You can prove me wrong with a picture of you holding the cell, I know you cannot produce. I will provide a picture of me holding the first cell of this production line in my hand tomorrow when it arrives. I am being truthful when I say this cell is top shelf compared to other pouch cells. You stated I am comparing apples to oranges, okay, then show me a performance pouch cell that can deliver the amps this cell produces at the same weight? I will defend to what I know is valid and correct information.


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## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

JRP3 said:


> Thank you Jozzer for posting your extensive experience. It's good to have real world data as opposed to marketing hype from someone with little experience. Once again Ron acts in an unprofessional manner because someone with more experience tells him something he doesn't want to hear. Ron, will you ever learn?


If I thought Jozzer had tested one of these cells and had knowledge of the results, I would honor his posts. BUT, he has never even seen one of these cells except for the pictures I posted. He bluntly lied about saying they are being sold in th UK as a series battery for $40.00. I will not allow misinformation to be posted.


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## MN Driver (Sep 29, 2009)

For what its worth there are people using the cells that Luke/liveforphysics uses and have a ton of cycles on them, Luke even posted a thread where he took the 40C cells and charged/discharged them at high rates and was counting cycles. I'm not sure where that thread went but I think he was beyond about 400 cycles before I stopped watching the thread where he was charging over specced rates, in which typically most would assume such abuse would result in fire, however it didn't.


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## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

MN Driver said:


> For what its worth there are people using the cells that Luke/liveforphysics uses and have a ton of cycles on them, Luke even posted a thread where he took the 40C cells and charged/discharged them at high rates and was counting cycles. I'm not sure where that thread went but I think he was beyond about 400 cycles before I stopped watching the thread where he was charging over specced rates, in which typically most would assume such abuse would result in fire, however it didn't.


Yes, you are correct. Luke has abused Turnigy Nano-Techs many times with great results. He has also toured the Haiyin plant in China along with many other plants in other countries. He speaks highly of what he has seen at the Haiyin plant. Because of his position, he is limited in stating why he visited these plants around thew world, but he is an excellent source for information. And a very nice guy!


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## kek_63 (Apr 20, 2008)

LithiumaniacsEVRacing said:


> ............. I will not allow misinformation to be posted.



That's good to hear (read). Let's see the video of your 3 runs at Englishtown.

Later,
Keith


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## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

It took me many months to convince Haiyin there is a market for EV performance pouch cells. So, be glad they built us a superior racing cell. Most battery producers shoot for the OEM sales and leave the EV racer or conversion guys with nothing. Haiyin is large enough to provide cells for OEM and us.


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## Jozzer (Mar 29, 2009)

I'll not bother bickering with you, you are far too adept at twisting words and I've better things to do with my time.
I did NOT however say that I had tested this particular cell and clearly told you which I HAD tested, I did NOT lie, and my intent on this thread was to stop YOU from posting misinformation and bad comparisons that people might take on faith.
you also don't read the posts you are replying too, I said they may be the new cells sold from HK...Hobby King, Not the UK.
http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/store/uh_viewItem.asp?idProduct=17265

Steve


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Jozzer said:


> ... I said they may be the new cells sold from HK...Hobby King, Not the UK.
> http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/store/uh_viewItem.asp?idProduct=17265
> 
> Steve


To be fair this did sound as if you were saying they were selling them in the UK, unless "" is code for Hobby King.


Jozzer said:


> FYI, I am not in the USA, and had been speaking to them about producing a more suitable cell for EV's for some time. I believe your "superior" cell is actually in the new pack they are offering here ($41 for 2 in series).


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## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

Jozzer said:


> I'll not bother bickering with you, you are far too adept at twisting words and I've better things to do with my time.
> I did NOT however say that I had tested this particular cell and clearly told you which I HAD tested, I did NOT lie, and my intent on this thread was to stop YOU from posting misinformation and bad comparisons that people might take on faith.
> you also don't read the posts you are replying too, I said they may be the new cells sold from HK...Hobby King, Not the UK.
> http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/store/uh_viewItem.asp?idProduct=17265
> ...


Nobody "twisted your words", you posted misinformation and I corrected you. These cells are not sold from Hobby King. Please stick with the facts, I have no time for games. The cell arrived today, I will posted pictures later tonight after I finish installing my Gear Vendors Overdrive.


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## Jozzer (Mar 29, 2009)

JRP3 said:


> To be fair this did sound as if you were saying they were selling them in the UK, unless "" is code for Hobby King.


 I did actually intend to post the link under that, I apologise, but I did say "i believe" not "are", and I also listed the cells from this factory I had actually tested, which didn't include this particular cell. Point is, Ron actually doesnt know what QC will be like until after he has recieved and individually tested several hundred (which I doubt Ron would have done, but hope he will now!), and has very little prior experience with this vendor.

Steve


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Understood. Make no mistake, I'm not questioning your information in the least, just pointing out where Ron might be coming from, even if it's often a far away place  As he says, he won't tolerate misinformation, unless it comes from him


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## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)




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## coryrc (Aug 5, 2008)

LithiumaniacsEVRacing said:


>


Shouldn't that short the terminals and cause big sparks and fire and such?

Oh, I'm guessing they're plastic or something (hard to tell from these terrible photos). Where'd you get them? I keep measuring battery terminals with my metal ones and they are getting pitted.


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## kek_63 (Apr 20, 2008)

Are you certain that the tabs are 2mm thick? In the pics they look to be more like 0.5mm. Could you show us that measurement with your caliper?


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## Sutitan (Feb 23, 2009)

kek_63 said:


> Are you certain that the tabs are 2mm thick? In the pics they look to be more like 0.5mm. Could you show us that measurement with your caliper?


Checking the dimensions sheet on the cells link, it looks like it says .2mm. I haven't read through the entirety of the thread, but 2mm was probably a misprint. .2mm sounds alot more realistic.










EDIT: Ok found it. Guessing it was a misprint. Ill let Ron clear it up.



> The tabs are 2mm thick and 30mm wide, they are designed for high power discharging. I have learned Googles of information on pouch cells in the last 6 months. Have you ever noticed most high power cells are designed longer than wider? The closer the "material" is to the cell tab the higher you can build the C-Rating and the cell will discharge cooler. The internal resistance and cell shape control temperature. The wider larger AH cells produce lower C-Ratings.


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## Jozzer (Mar 29, 2009)

He will, because he hates misinformation


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## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

kek_63 said:


> Are you certain that the tabs are 2mm thick? In the pics they look to be more like 0.5mm. Could you show us that measurement with your caliper?


My apologies,
30.0mm wide
0.2mm thick


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## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

Haiyin also sells hundreds of different style batteries through this website:
http://herewin.en.alibaba.com/featureproductlist.html

They sell batteries for scooters, bikes, solar, cars, trucks, lawnmowers, etc.......I might consider selling some other products they produce and stock them at The Battery Shop!


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## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

Cells will be arriving anyday here in Connecticut.


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## Bowser330 (Jun 15, 2008)

update please!


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## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

Sorry guys I just received this email, I will refund all purchases if the party decides not to wait.

"Dear Ron

Have some not so great news

We must source special tabs for 6aH-50C cells from Japan, but they have gotten way behind schedule

Now we are looking at 30Aug for completion of the 3000 pcs 

We will try and get them sooner but it is out of our hands


Just FYI, the Lithium Polymer battery business is growing fast so shortages will only become more common place
- http://sufiy.blogspot.com/2011/06/lithium-demand-industry-suffers-as.html

Of course we want you to achieve the world EV Dragster speed record ASAP

If we get an update, we will let you know

Sincerely"


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## kek_63 (Apr 20, 2008)

Unfortunately that is all too common with Chinese suppliers - and it is never _their_ fault.


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## frodus (Apr 12, 2008)

Gotta love just-in-time manufacturing.


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## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

I doubt it's just China running into supply demands, I have heard South Korea and Japan have hit some delays because of the metals are behind production in Japan. I think it has to do with the Nuclear disaster.


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## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

I have received good news from China, they received the tabs from Japan last week and have been in full production of my cells. Most are in the "drying room?", they will be shipped shortly.


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## Guest (Aug 19, 2011)

> I think it has to do with the Nuclear disaster.


 I don't think so. I is too far out for that. 
Good news on your cells. I can't wait. I'd like to have some for my buggy. It would be perfect. Fast discharge and charge. Perfect for the track. 

Pete


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## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

gottdi said:


> I don't think so. I is too far out for that.
> Good news on your cells. I can't wait. I'd like to have some for my buggy. It would be perfect. Fast discharge and charge. Perfect for the track.
> 
> Pete


Not sure was caused the delay in Japan, but it does not matter now, they have the tabs. I will keep you all informed when they arrive.


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## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

Cells are ready and will be shipped within 24 hours, last chance to buy the remainder of this shipment. I have 300 cells that are not sold, first come, first serve. Next shipment will come in 30 to 60 days. 

http://www.ecedra.com/thebatteryshop.html


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## rmay635703 (Oct 23, 2008)

billhac said:


> pouch cell, building it my self, in a small version first of course.
> 
> http://ocelltech.en.alibaba.com/product/296556056-209562658/lifepo4_3_2V10Ah.html


I like the $1 per 10ahr price much better


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## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

rmay635703 said:


> I like the $1 per 10ahr price much better


The C-Rating is very low on those cells. No amps! 
No match for Haiyin cells!


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## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

The cells are in my hands and samples are being shipped out! Travis will get his this week along with buyers in Spain and UK. 

I have started building the new battery boxes, 8P 90S! 
The Camaro's pack will be much lighter and supply 3200amps! 

Just enough to make my new 3000amp controller happy!


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## xrotaryguy (Jul 26, 2007)

Ron, 

You have dimensions for the AMP20 cells on your web site complete with tab spacing and thickness. Is there any chance you might have dimensions on AMP15 cells?


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