# 48v "mild hybrid" system for Audi cars.



## Karter2 (Nov 17, 2011)

Audi have stated that several of their new models may use a new 48 v Lithium battery powered "mild hybrid" system based on a belt drive alternator/starter motor .


> The mild hybrid setup includes a belt-driven alternator/starter, and a 48V lithium-ion battery that’s recharged via regenerative braking. The system will be standard on both Audi A8 diesel and petrol models.
> 
> Audi says the system can provide up to 12kW of power and 60Nm of torque. It’s claimed, under the NEDC testing scheme, fuel economy can be improved by up to 0.7 litres per 100 kilometres.


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## dcb (Dec 5, 2009)

well starting the engine quickly has some benefits, and this sounds like a fairly simple fitting. But it doesn't really meet the sort of engineering results you would expect from a German manufacturer. Kind of odd to considering how merkel was all about the paris deal and how committed they are to renewables.

Hell coyotex made a plug in hybrid out of a metro using a 5th gear extension like years ago. I'm a little shocked at how underwhelming this is.


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## Karter2 (Nov 17, 2011)

Yes, its seems odd considering Audi/VW/Porche experience with hybrid electric vehicles.
Infact this just looks to be a copy of the GM "BAS" (Belt AlternatorStarter) launched several years ago in the Saturn etc
But GM claimed much better mpg improvements ?


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## dcb (Dec 5, 2009)

Even if it does border on greenwashing, I recon it is better than nothing, since they aren't about to shut down ICE operations anytime soon. Certainly some marketing appeal in being able to claim your entire lineup is hybrids.


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## lottos (Jun 22, 2008)

dcb said:


> But it doesn't really meet the sort of engineering results you would expect from a German manufacturer.


Recent engineering from german car manufacturers seems to centre around dishonesty and cheating. VW isn't the only one:

http://www.dw.com/en/germany-accuses-audi-of-cheating-on-emissions-tests/a-39087332


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## dcb (Dec 5, 2009)

yah but we went a little mental with the small diesel regulations by comparison too, considering there were not that many anyway. Plus I really enjoyed being able to run an old $800 rabbit off biodiesel, instant green cred


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## Linpotec (Jun 7, 2017)

So strange 

how deep efforts the fuelheads do, to keep their machines alive... and so strange to see, how perfectly electric stuff works, when they put it even into fossile technology...

BR, Linpotec


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## 217801 (Jun 13, 2017)

lottos said:


> dcb said:
> 
> 
> > But it doesn't really meet the sort of engineering results you would expect from a German manufacturer.
> ...


Given they are the same company, using the same platforms with the same engines, so of course we see/saw the same issues. 
No doubt other manufacturers were doing exactly the same thing,
It's only VW audi group got caught

I use a euro6 2017 Passat tdi for my company car. I like it. Significantly less impact on the environment than my late 80's volvo turbo, and definitely much much less impact than my 60's twin webber high compression, large cam. Volvo Coupe. 

On that note, I do question some people when they say electric cars are better for the environment. 
Petrochemicals are still used to build them. And manufacture the steels, run the plant and what not. 
Manufacturing the batteries that's another hazard in its self. 
And charging, how many eco people, use 100% renewable energy. Which is much more sparce. 

That side of things isn't a concern for me, I'm not building an electric car, for the eco friendly aspects. 
It's mostly for shuts and giggles. And for relevance, as electric motors are inevitable.


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## rmay635703 (Oct 23, 2008)

Blondejay said:


> Given they are the same company, using the same platforms with the same engines, so of course we see/saw the same issues.
> No doubt other manufacturers were doing exactly the same thing,
> It's only VW audi group got caught
> 
> ...


I always find it amusing when folks compare the cradle to grave of an EV to the tailpipe of an ICE

Reality is getting the gallon of gas out of the ground, cleaning it transporting it and refining it can make about 300 grams of NOx

While we are myopic looking only at the tailpipe the vast majority of pollution is supply side exceeding even the emissions of the oldest of vehicles 

Only true way to deal with the refinery problem is to use less gas


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## 217801 (Jun 13, 2017)

For the most part though it's not to different for the power source to charge everyone's EV vehicles. 

At this point in time, dirty fossil fuels are still the main source of power generation across the world. 
Yes some pockets are renewable sources, unfortunately we are surrounded by petrochemical products in every aspect of life. Not just fuel sources. No doubt time will change and we will get better with plant based products, and recycling. However I can't see it being in my lifetime at least. (Roughly another 50years)


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## Karter2 (Nov 17, 2011)

Renault have anounced they will be equiping several of their new vehicles with a similar belt drive, 48v, Altermotor based , "mild hybrid" system .
Very similar to the Audi system but 10 kW and supplied by Continental out of Germany. (Same supplier as Audi ..i wonder ?)
Continental are saying they are working on a more "integrated" motor system.
A motor in the transaxle like a Prius possibly.
http://www.caradvice.com.au/564190/worlds-first-48-volt-mild-hybrid-system-in-production/


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## 217801 (Jun 13, 2017)

Half added quick inexpensive retrofit to help fudge emission requirements?


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

Karter2 said:


> ...
> Continental are saying they are working on a more "integrated" motor system.
> A motor in the transaxle like a Prius possibly.
> http://www.caradvice.com.au/564190/worlds-first-48-volt-mild-hybrid-system-in-production/


A mild hybrid motor-generator in the transaxle could make sense, but the Hybrid Synergy Drive of a Prius is a huge leap from that - there is no "mild" version of HSD because MG1 must handle enough power to control the engine speed, via the power splitter gearset... and MG2 needs to be able to absorb or supply the same power and more.

Honda's old Integrated Motor Assist is a more suitable format for integration in the transaxle. Various manufacturers have offered motor-generators which sandwich between engine and transmission, as an option for their transmission products; ZF (and presumably others) offer the motor-generator mounted in the bellhousing along with the torque converter or clutch (e.g. 15 kw with ZF 8HP automatic).


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## Karter2 (Nov 17, 2011)

Blondejay said:


> Half added quick inexpensive retrofit to help fudge emission requirements?


 For sure !... But that is the auto industry.
They are a business, not a crusade .
Just be grateful they are moving (slowly) in the right direction....and it does give an extra 150Nm of torque to improve the experience.


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## Karter2 (Nov 17, 2011)

brian_ said:


> A mild hybrid motor-generator in the transaxle could make sense, but the Hybrid Synergy Drive of a Prius is a huge leap from that - ........).


 Yes, the Prius was just the first integrated hybrid that sprung to mind....a poor example on my part........
......but who knows what they may decide to produce next ?


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## dcb (Dec 5, 2009)

Blondejay said:


> Half added quick inexpensive retrofit to help fudge emission requirements?


emissions, greenwashing, marketing. Better than nothing, but worse than what you might expect in 2017. With a dinky motor/generator they will slap the "hybrid" label on all their cars now.

I mean you *could* point out that the insight only had 10kw, but it only had a 1l engine too, and 2 seats, and lots of streamlining, and weighs 1900 pounds, it was a serious effort at emissions/consumption reduction, from 17 years ago, you can almost put antique plates on it. An audi looks like a humvee next to it, so as a part of the whole, 10kw isn't gonna do much.


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## Karter2 (Nov 17, 2011)

Yet more "48v , mild hybrid". systems .
This time to be used by VW in 2018 on the Golf, and Volvo also as part of their full range conversion to EV/hybrid vehicles in the coming years, (2019?)
I wonder how much of this is just "Media news fodder" to keep the critics at bay and buy time until these Auto companies figure out a better way to convert their existing ICE architecture vehicles to real EV/ hybrids. ?
https://www.forbes.com/sites/michae...ar-strategy-is-badly-misleading/#6d23062ed95a


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

Karter2 said:


> https://www.forbes.com/sites/michae...ar-strategy-is-badly-misleading/#6d23062ed95a


The article is somewhat reasonable, but I can't give much credibility to an author who writes this:


> Honda replaced the torque converter on the 1999 Insight with an electric motor...


No. There's no torque converter to replace in a manual transmission, and the IMA doesn't even replace the clutch, which is still needed. The IMA is an addition, not a replacement for anything. While this author says he has written about the industry for many years, I don't think that he has a clue about the technology that he is writing about, and probably wouldn't recognize a torque converter, clutch, or motor-generator if it were dropped in his lap.


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## Karter2 (Nov 17, 2011)

They are primarily journalists at the end of the day.
Even some of the most prominent/successful lifetime motoring journo's are actually pretty poorly informed (dumb) when it comes to technical knowledge.
(EG....the TopGear crew !)
I have even seen some rediculous statements from car manufactures own printed information sheets.


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