# regerative trike questions



## ken will (Dec 19, 2009)

I like your work, the Salmon almost look Aztec. 










A Hybrid is like an El Camino, you either love it or hate.
Here is a 48 volt motor kit with regen and reverse.

http://www.evdrives.com/product_p/ck-10e-1.htm


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## Jarel Design (Jul 2, 2015)

Ken,

THANK YOU SO MUCH!!! 

This was exactly what I was looking for! (I may go with something else, but at this point, I am only in pre-designing phase...)

I just wanted to know if what I saw thinking of was possible...

I like the El Camino comparison... For me, I would like the option of fuel and electric... Mostly because I LOVE to drive (think small not so powerful sports car), just to "tool around" the country side with the stereo on, visiting little towns around our area... The distances would require more thought and designing/electrical engineering, more batteries etc... and I like the idea of not having to think about range if we get an inspiration to go see what's over the next ridge...

However, I am SO committed to creating an EV! This will be my first, but I have decades of engineering and prototype development experience and this has been at the top of my "wish to create list"...

Not sure how many posts I need to do in order to post some images, but when I do, you'll get a much better idea of why I KNOW I can create something like this, both engineering and styling... (Not ego speaking here, just in love with making "stuff"! (I go nuts in between client projects! I've designed and built so many neat "toys" around our home here....

Right now, It's 106 degrees here... I designed and built a two-stage evaporative cooler using Craigslist items and we're getting over 30 degreees difference from what it is outside... (Power bill for AC has dropped from $500~$600 to way less than $200! (Working on a 28watt solar home heating system right now and plan to have it installed this fall, including a mass heat collector designed as a "window box seat" so the heating can continue into the night....) (We live in the city on a city lot and produce more than 75% of our own food, including chickens, rabbits, quail and tilapia (in aquaponic systems)... (It's al a lot less "invasive looking" than it sounds, but most of our friends are frequent visitors just to see what new item has been added! LOL!

I absolutely LOVE this website! So cool to see so many people creating scratchbuilts and conversions....

The Salmon sculpture is about 20' tall with 3 independently moving salmon. (A LOT of aerodynamic engineering that goes unseen.)

Here's my second website... I also design, and produce RC aircraft and UAVs... I "think" in the drawing gallery, there's an illustration of a red, reverse trike I designed in the early 80's... THAT will give you a direction of where I'm heading with this old/new dream.

Again, thank you SO much for responding to my thread and sharing the info... You totally unleashed the floodgates for me to continue drawing...

(I was going to sketch everything out, but so much of my work is done in 3D... I think I'm going to use some 12" action figures and sculpt a foam mock up around it... Then I can photograph it and trace over the drawing, scaling everything based on our heights and then scaling in the motorcycle part and laying out a tubular frame from there.... (The cool thing is the model will sit on my desk and fan the creative flames to get me moving on this.)

Best to you!

Richard

PS: COOL! I was permitted to post some images! I couldn't find the individual images, but the image sheet that has the side view of a red low riding trike is where I was styling-wise back in the 80s... (This one was purely fuel, not electric, but the next one will definitely be a hybrid... wanting to have the flexibility of swapping motors and batteries to gain better range within the 25mph~45mph speed range... The rear end will be higher and serve as a very low "station wagon" cargo area above the motorcycle component while providing a roof for a nominal solar panel for trickle charging and to keep the aerodynamics as sleek as possible.

OK... Working on a Spider-man prototype and I want to complete it today... So close! (I might even take the night off! LOL!


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## Jarel Design (Jul 2, 2015)

Found the world land speed record, hand powered trikes (1st and 2nd generation and sketch of 3rd generation.


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## nimblemotors (Oct 1, 2010)

You should have no problem assembling an Indy One kit.


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## Jarel Design (Jul 2, 2015)

nimble,

Wished I could see it... Went to your link and found no images but what I think was a video? A "mime" file? Have no idea what that is, but my computer doesn't support the format according to the message I got...

Would love to see it and learn more!

Best,

Richard


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## nimblemotors (Oct 1, 2010)

You must have an old browser that doesn't support HTML5,
hard to believe those still are in use.



Jarel Design said:


> nimble,
> 
> Wished I could see it... Went to your link and found no images but what I think was a video? A "mime" file? Have no idea what that is, but my computer doesn't support the format according to the message I got...
> 
> ...


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

Hi Richard
Your proposed design seems quite sensible and doable
(which is more than I can say for the "Indy One")


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## Jarel Design (Jul 2, 2015)

Nimble:

YES! It's an extremely old computer (LOL!), my work computer is off line getting programs installed and some upgrades. I have to have at least one computer up and running for client contacts...

Duncan: Thank you so much for the support... I thought my idea would work and I was pretty sure the components were out there, but I didn't even want to draw anything out until I found out for sure... The next part will probably be getting some idea as to what motors to design the frame around to be able to mount a variety (being able to start with a few candidates and have the space to not worry about mounting them.)

Geeze! From sitting in the back of my mind for what seems like forever to actually getting started has brought me to a state of obsession about this project!

=D

Richard


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## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

What made you lock in to 48 volts, and are you certain that it should be hybrid? Lithium comes in really small sizes of 3.2 volt batteries, so you may be able to pack a higher voltage pack into a small space.


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## Jarel Design (Jul 2, 2015)

EVMETRO:

THANK YOU SO MUCH for "challenging" my choices! Rest assured that I use the word "challenge" in the most positive, supportive, teaching and thought provoking way! 

Although I have quite a diverse and multi-skilled background (including RC batteries, controllers, LiPo and brushless applications), my knowledge about EV design (especially with the power/drive components is only enough to get into trouble... Probably a LOT of trouble!)

Let me begin my reply with what I "think I know" about my choices... I definitely want a hybrid system based soley on how we plan to use this vehicle which for us, could mean putting on 200miles plus driving around the countryside. I don't want to be concerned about getting back home if we decide to keep driving further away from home if something over the horizon interests us (LOL!)

With regards to building from scratch rather than converting an existing vehicle? Well, that's where my "ego" steps in and acknowledging to myself just who I am and my dream of building what most might consider a Detroit or Euro class "concept vehicle" worthy of being put on display at an auto show... (I absolutely LOVE my job and thrive on designing, engineering and fabricating! It is probably one of my GREATEST joys!!!)

Now with regards to voltage, battery and power system choices...

Where I began this "journey" in earnest, I found that what I was designing was more of an electric bicycle trike: using hub motor wheels and using 12 volts. I then stepped it up to 24 volts (based on what I "think" I learned regarding higher voltages being ore efficient)... That led to needing a more robust frame which led to more weight which led to more power requirements. (I run into this a LOT regarding designing electric powered aircraft/UAVs... More weight, more power, more power more batteries, more batteries, more weight and the cycle continues until some "acceptable compromise" is met.

As I continued to research more on the internet, I learned more about electric motorcycles... again, more voltage, more batteries, more power etc... Since I knew I wanted a hybrid (on the electric "bicycle, I was considering 50cc~100cc 4 stroke engines.), a motorcycle with an electric start would allow me to switch from electric to gas at the flip of a switch. The larger engine would allow me to push a larger/heavier vehicle and hopefully, re-charge drive batteries while giving more flexibility in design, weight and performance...

I had intended to stick with 24 volt until I read that using 48 volts was a lot more efficient (?), and opened up choices for better motors, controllers and performance...

Drive style: 
I'm absolutely not looking for a high performance speed demon... My version of "high performance" is seeking versatility of the vehicle (the updated styling design will require me to extend the rear arms for the motorcycle wheel and extend the rear portion of the body for aerodynamic reasons as well as separating the fuel/drive train below what will become a side accessed "station wagon" cargo area capable of carrying groceries, and items up to about 4' long.

Performance goals:
I'm hoping for about 45mph (maybe just a hair more: 50mph) under piston drive, covering most of the highway speeds that are around here. Under electric power, I'm shooting for 25mph~35mph covering most of the "city/in-town driving speeds. 

Regarding gas usage, my first goal is to top 100mpg (This would include leaving home with a fully charged set of electric drive batteries. I'm "assuming" that additional charging while under piston power would increase fuel consumption, but hopefully, charging electric drive batteries would offset that.

Something for certain: This will be a test bed (performance-wise)... A "prototype" that I can adapt to, modify etc... I am planning on making room for more batteries, larger motor etc as my understanding of how all of these systems work. (I'm still learning and intend to continue learning!)

Priorities:
1: Low cost for electric drive components. (We have so much going on in our lives (I'll share more later), that I can't put a lot of $$ into this project. (I don't even have a budget figured out yet!) (Very early stages of design/development. I know I can fabricate most of the vehicles other components, body, frame, interior etc...)

2: Efficiency (long range following the above performance parameters). Both in electric mode (I hope to have around 30 to 50 miles available on batteries, but would be ok with 25 to 30 miles). Again: I don't know so much! 

I plan on re-gearing the piston drive train sprockets taking into account that I am not looking for quick starts to hurry up and wait for the next red light  while at the same time relying on gear shifting for more torque (hill climbing), needs and not over-straining the piston engine.

As of now, I have no idea what the total gross weight will be, but I'm taking a stab "in the dark" at 800lbs without passengers. I have no idea if the electric power system that was linked to me will manage that and I understand the need to reduce weight. I'm very experienced with composites, Kevlar, Carbon Fiber, Fiberglass, foam and plastics (2 vacuum formers in my shop... Planning on having a LOT of fun designing and fabricating the interior components. 

Aerodynamics is something I would consider myself as being somewhat of an expert with many years of designing award winning aircraft and world land speed record vehicles...

I really need to get back to the shop and get some more work done before leaving later this afternoon for a BBQ at a friends home...

I REALLY want to thank you for questioning my choices!!! THIS is the time to take the voltage, battery and motor choices (as well as design/engineering issues), into consideration. 

I do need to share again that cost is a true factor in this project (which I'm sure will have an influence on my ultimate starting choices for components), especially since I will be building this vehicle from scratch...

One of the "other" challenges I'm looking at, is the front end/steering and suspension assembly... Safety is a HUGE consideration (Ex-Firefighter)... I've been looking at front ends from VW's as being a potentially easy and safe way to go, yet I'm concerned about the weight. on the other side of the coin, there is so much involved with calculating geometry regarding steering/handling as well as machining to higher strengths, that I would probably rely on someone who fabricates scratch built frames (dune buggy), to fabricate this components if I go that route. It would be nice to be able to use smaller automobile rims/tires etc and with the VW assembly, all of these matters could be taken care of. (Your thoughts?)

I would LOVE to learn more from you about voltage, motor battery choices, ANYTHING!  I've tried to share as much as I can here regarding where I'm at with this project and my goals. 

As much as I "know" that I "know a lot", what makes me certain that I know a "whole lot", is that I approach projects like this with an open mind and a belief that I "know" NOTHING! LOL!

Besides sharing information, suggestions with me, I welcome and appreciate questions as well! I'm sure there are things I know nothing about that I haven't even considered yet!

Thank you again!

Best Regards,

Richard


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## ken will (Dec 19, 2009)

A few points to ponder:

A motorcycle Trike or a Delta bicycle have 1 wheel in the front and 2 in the rear. Better for carrying loads, simple steering geometry.
A motorcycle Reverse Trike or a Tadpole bicycle have 2 wheels in the front and 1 in the rear. Much sportier, great on corners, simple drive train.

With lot of stop and go, or hills..weight is the enemy.
High speed, or side by side seating... air resistance is the enemy.

Lead acid batteries, cheap, but heavy and don't last as long.
Lithium, more expensive, but energy dense and longer life.

Used components, cheap, but heavy, less adaptable, unknown reliability.
New or fabricated parts, more expensive, but lighter, more adaptable to fit your design.

DC motor-controllers, cheaper, less efficient, more upkeep.
AC motor-controllers, more expensive, but more efficient and less maintenance


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## Jarel Design (Jul 2, 2015)

Thank you again!

All of what you share makes total sense.

Reverse trike (I REALLY LOVE the design/styling options and the ease of adapting the frame and rear swing arm/drive system to this type of trike. As for Load carrying: The back cargo section will be for lighter/bulkier loads and any heavier loads (4 grocery bags? will be loaded forward behind the seats... Traveling with my wife, I have to have side by side seating... We're truly each others best friend... and, she's totally supporting my efforts to create this project! Batteries (for now) will be located just outside the passenger area on both sides or under front "hood" just ahead of the windshield with additional cargo area for heavier loads.

I've always understood the weight penalties as well as side by side wind resistance as well as the stop and go aspects of torquing the electric drive train and using up power and understand and embrace this as another "barrier" of achieving my goals... again, compromises sometimes need to be made.

Batteries: (Cheap is good, but I also know about lifespan, weight etc.... Could you share any links for inexpensive alternative sources for better batteries and any info on what is out there? LiPo, sealed/jell, better lead/acid or others? (I'm fine doing the research to learn more... I don't want to load you down with too many favors), just curious as to what's out there.

AC vs DC... This is where I know absolutely nothing about AC! Within the size and performance parameters of what I'm looking to build, is this a worthy option to research? I'm imagining a MUCH larger expense (?) and a LOT of batteries to get the voltage up(?) Again, I know nothing about AC EV and honestly, have never researched this as an option. (Again, really just starting out with researching and learning about the specifics of EV propulsion. I know so much more and understand better, DC systems.

I like that the DC units are cheaper and I don't mind the maintenance (for now...) again, this will be my first EV, an evolving prototype and will probably be huge part of my "education" in E Vs as I proceed... I'm hoping to complete as much learning to make as wise a collection of choices as possible before committing to systems and components, but as a blue water sailor, I know that a boat is NEVER totally ready to leave port and most of us can rarely afford to purchase all the right equipment before venturing out... At some point you just have to cast off! LOL!

I'm wondering if my choice for going hybrid and thinking that I'm not asking too much of my electrical drive system (25 to 50 mile range at lower speeds), if efficiency would be that high a priority for me to justify the added expense and lack of understanding AC systems?)

Since discovering this website, I am becoming OBSESSED with learning more even faster to get this project "rolling"... Sorry for the pun... Oh, not really! LOL!

I really should turn off the alarm that tells me I have a new email. I can hear it from where I'm working!

Ken, thank you again!


Richard


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

AC v DC
I like DC it's cheap and cheerful - I can get a LOT of power for a small amount of money
BUT you will need re-gen for your project
So that knocks DC on the head!
On the other hand you don't want gobs of power so a cheap AC system will be fine

As far as your front end is concerned you need light but strong
Any car system will be over-strong and heavy

I suggest you look up "Locost" - and think about making your own double wishbone front suspension


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## Jarel Design (Jul 2, 2015)

Thanks Duncan,

Can you explain why regenerative would knock DC off my choice? (Again, I'm still learning.)

Is "Locost" a company name? or just thinking Low cost?

I'm in agreement with you about an auto front end (even VW probably being over-kill)... I'd just have to find someone who knows what they're doing, explain what I'm after and have them fabricate it... They'd probably end up being the same people that bends and welds up my frame.

Thanks!

Richard


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## Jarel Design (Jul 2, 2015)

I just did some research and price checks for LiPo batteries...

HOLY SMOKES! Super expensive! (Still not crossed off my list, but considering that there may be some serious changes (before and after my build, I may go with lead acid for starters... If I switch to a higher voltage, I'd like to start with fresh LiPos that have the same charge/discharge history instead of mixing them up... I did find two great threads that were from this forum (One was on lead acid batteries and the other on Lipos... I saved them and will come back later tonight or tomorrow to read them thoroughly.

(God! I wish I could be researching full time... My wife is in the kitchen preparing our contribution to this BBQ and she's already been fine with me working AND sitting here replying to posts and researching more about the power system options for this project... I'd like to keep it that way! LOL! 

Thanks again everybody!

From a recent post I did become curious as to AC options, brands, models etc suitable for my particular project, maybe even a link to a thread further explaining AC applications to smaller EV projects? (I'll do a search here and see what I find.

Happy 4th of July!!!

Richard


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## ken will (Dec 19, 2009)

Jarel Design said:


> Thanks Duncan,
> 
> Can you explain why regenerative would knock DC off my choice? (Again, I'm still learning.)


A large number of DC motors available are Series wound; the Field and Armature coils are connected in series inside the motor case. These can not be used for Regen.

A small number of DC motors are SepEx (Separately Excited); The Field and Armature coils are totally separate, which allows for Regen with the appropriate controller.


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## Jarel Design (Jul 2, 2015)

Thanks Ken!

I'll be looking at that distinction regarding DC motor options!

Ha! I'm still here researching Lipos... weight will be a huge concern! (Sure that's nothing new to everyone here...

I'm catching up though... as fast as I can type and click my mouse!

I REALLY have to just turn this computer off, go shower and get ready to leave!
LOL!


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## samwichse (Jan 28, 2012)

http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forum...#/forumsite/20977/topics/159210?postid=639458

Maybe a bit of overkill for what you want, but that DMOC 645 would be a nice regenerating setup to push your trike... dunno if it can be flashed/programmed/whatever to drive the AC24 motors he is also selling? ~20 hp continuous would be more than enough for a steady 65mph cruise.

Minimum voltage for the controller is 100v though.


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## Moltenmetal (Mar 20, 2014)

Cheapest practical batteries are Volt an Leaf packs out of a wreckers. Yours will be even cheaper as you don't need the whole pack to meet your modest range needs- you can sell or keep the rest as spares.

AC isn't that much more expensive than DC unless you salvage a motor and build your own controller. Buying both? AC is the way to go. Check out HPEVS- there are many distributors and good data about choices, power/torque versus speed and current curves etc. on their website.For your project, regen is the biggest reason but you can do regen with some types of DC motors if the controller can do it.


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

Hi
"Locost" is the name of a low cost two seater sports car
Very similar to the old Lotus 7

A Guy called Ron Champion wrote a book about how to build one including all of the plans and dimensions
Hundreds have been built world wide
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Locost

I would suggest using the same front end - or something very similar


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## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

I really like your "from scratch" spirit. One of the EV builds that I admire the most on this forum is Duncan's scratch built project. From scratch is the holy grail of projects in my opinion, so I am looking forward to keeping up with your build.


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

I sometimes feel like a fraud when people like Evmetro who have produced superb cars comment about "The Device"
The Device is really really basic compared to a complete "car"
No; doors, roof, windows, heater,.........
It's a lot easier to build a basic machine than a complete modern car
Which is why car companies spend tens or hundreds of millions developing a new car

So as far as your trike is concerned 
Yes you can do it and it will be great fun
But keep to the KISS principle - if its not there then you don't need to spend ages getting it to work
A windscreen for instance
If I had a windscreen then I would need;
Approved glass type
Wipers
Washers
De-mister

I find it easier to wear sunnies when I can and a helmet when the weather is bad


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## nimblemotors (Oct 1, 2010)

Off-topic, but here is something different that is really only possible because the motors are in the wheels, something you could not build with a gas powered vehicle.






In regards to the OP, if you require side-by-side seating, there is little point in having only 3-wheels. 3-wheel 'sports vehicles' with side-by-side seating are open cockpit and have about the worst aerodynamics possible and are about speed thrills and avoiding 4-wheel legal requirements.

The single rear wheel drive design is not great for a real road car,
but makes awesome fun doing burnouts.


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

Wheelmotors are one of the unicorns of electric cars - rare or mythical beasts

In practice they don't work because motor torque is (very very roughly) proportional to motor weight and a motor with single gear reduction and diff is one hell of a lot lighter than two hi torque motors
(Not to mention issues with unsprung weight)

The three wheeled tadpole approach is definitely worse than a standard four wheeled from a packaging and performance point of view

Where it does score is in simplicity of construction and the ability to use motorbike bits
Also most places the regs are simpler with a three wheeler

The two seats in tandem or side by side is a bit of a null
The width of your car is set by the need to be wide enough not to fall over on corners,
Given that your front wheels need to be that far apart (and especially if you are using car suspension and driveshafts) you will have enough room for a side/side arrangement

That assumes that you are building a "standard" layout - I have always liked the idea of the "Leaning Trike" but that is a bit more challenging


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

ken will said:


> A large number of DC motors available are Series wound; the Field and Armature coils are connected in series inside the motor case. These can not be used for Regen.
> 
> A small number of DC motors are SepEx (Separately Excited); The Field and Armature coils are totally separate, which allows for Regen with the appropriate controller.


Also Agni and Lynch motors. Permanent magnet motors, light weight, regen, good for low weight vehicles.


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## ken will (Dec 19, 2009)

Jarel Design said:


> Traveling with my wife, I have to have side by side seating... We're truly each others best friend...
> Richard


Just my opinion, but, in motorcycle style seating where one person has their arms wrapped around the other seems friendlier than just sitting side by side.


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## Jarel Design (Jul 2, 2015)

You guys are GREAT!!!!!

I now have way more information than I can digest at the moment...

I REALLY have to get to work! I have 5 robotic "creature" prototypes to design, engineer and fabricate for delivery by the 21st!!! This is why I don't get much sleep.

Although I have searched and saved many of the links and websites you guys have shared, I've not had the time to research them in depth.

So many decisions to make! Even though the price is high, I can appreciate the advantages of LiPo batteries... Seems the life span with high numbers of charging cycles can really offset the low cost of LA batteries (and then there's the weight.... Cost is still a major factor here, but my commitment to this project seems to deserve the added expenses...

I know I'm set on the reverse trike design (Ironically, I see this design contributing to what I can create aerodynamically)...

If you don't see me coming back often, please believe that this is not a flash in the pan sharing... I'm just working trying to earn the extra money to invest in this project and researching components.

As I see it now, I need to decide on a motor (regenerative capable as I do see the gas motor being able to drive the vehicle while using the motor to re-charge the batteries)... Some sort of controller, a throttle (pedal), a reverse switch and batteries... I think once I get a clearer idea as to what I plan to use, I can start sculpting a body with scale 12" action figures to scale a scratch built motorcycle rear end... (I know that this may seem backwards, but from a scale mock up, I can photograph it, and use it as a scaled guide to create drawings for the frame.) Additionally, It will give me a better idea as to how it will look and much easier to re-sculpt in foam at this scale... Once I'm satisfied with the styling design and build the model, I can put it on my desk and is will serve as visual stimulation to keep going... With everything you have all shared, I now see this as possibly taking a year or two to complete (If I am to have any semblance of even a partial "normal life" (LOLOLOL!!!) As it is, seems like I am spending every possible minute researching!

My current deadline is delivery on the 21st... My wife is a master gardener, I'm a certified land steward... We live on a city lot yet, produce over 70 of our own organic food including chicken eggs, rabbits for meat, Quail for meat and eggs and Tilapia in aquaponic systems... We teach this stuff and have three more speaking engagements lined up for this summer and a website to put together... My biggest priority this summer/fall is to complete a DIY solar heating system for the house. Last year, I created a custom two-stage cooling system to replace our central air it uses only 25o watts when turned on high and we often have to turn it down. Getting over 30 degree difference between outside and inside... Our summer power bills have dropped from $500~$600 to less than $200. Our winter power bills (heating) have been over $700! I'm planning on bringing them down to under $200 as well!

Whew!

So, yes... I'm extremely busy but I am well known for following though on my ideas, designing and engineering them and completing them! (Can't tell you how many automatic watering/feeding/vertical growing and irrigation systems I've designed, built and have been functioning in place for over two years!

So again, if you don't see me visiting here a lot, I'm super occupied... Rest assured, I will be continuing to research and hopefully (SOON!), come up with a design that I can shape in foam... (I'm used to updating my prototype clients via photos and videos and I will certainly document every step of this project and share those visuals here with you!!!)

OK... Onward to robotic creature #1

Again, so many thanks to all of you... I am so surprised and so very appreciative of all the information you've shared with me. I couldn't have asked for more!

Best,
Richard


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## samwichse (Jan 28, 2012)

http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showthread.php?t=136865

A nice motor/controller combo for your project...


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## Jarel Design (Jul 2, 2015)

samwichse: Thanks for the offer... Still more research to do before I decide on what I want to use...

Ken: Tresa and I are always holding hands and giving each other "those looks" when we drive side by side... Couldn't do that so easily in tandem mode.... I guess we could always pull over to hug! LOL!

(Yes, I came back! I figured out a lot on my projects... Found gear molds to cast (I pour my own) and glass marbles just the right size to vacuum form to create the eyes and moving eyelids....) 

I have a few more pours to do and some odds and ends... Tresa has been taking care of all the animals and thinking about taking a nap... Hmmm I think that means I could come back hear and keep reading?


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## Jarel Design (Jul 2, 2015)

*Re: OMG!!! "Charge"*

Hello all!

I just couldn't get enough so I ordered "Who Killed the Electric Car?" on NETFLIX (seen it a few times, but I just can't get enough of this!)... What came up when I searched for "more like this", was a movie (documentary) called "Charge"... Don't know if anyone here has seen it or maybe I just stepped up to the end of the line...


OMG!!!

"Charge", is about the first all electric TT Grand Prix motorcycle race in England... I couldn't ask for more!

Inspiring to say the least!

Tresa watched it with me and loved it and now has a much better idea of what I am trying to design and the balancing act between all the different components...

I have so much more I want to learn before deciding on what I'm going to use... For a guy who failed algebra in high school... well, let's just say that "math" is probably my greatest limitation (2nd only to computer literacy... I live and die by a calculator... LOL!) But this is also the same guy who studied technical German to be able to translate doctoral studies on model aircraft aerodynamics (At that time, there were only two German scientists doing work in the field... nothing that NASA produced was applicable...), and then I bought books to learn how to understand the mathematical equations... I wound up with several 1st place sailplane race wins and a world land speed record...

There is nothing I wouldn't do to break through my barriers to learn how to design and build this project!

I was talking with Tresa after the film and shared with her that I have not been so passionate about creating something since I built my 3rd ultralight (fixed wing) glider! (She was shocked but totally understood after watching "Charged"...

I also shared with her that I have had the dream of designing and building an electric powered commuter vehicle since I was in junior high...

I'm now 61 yrs old.

Somewhere around here I have a notebook with sketches for this very old dream... When I find them, I'll scan and post here (You'll have to remember though that these were designed and drawn by a 13~14 year old boy...

What a great film! Can't recommend this highly enough for anyone here!

OK... Tresa's watering some of her garden starts, so I'm going to read some more tech threads here and learn more!

G'night!

Richard


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## ken will (Dec 19, 2009)

*Re: OMG!!! "Charge"*



Jarel Design said:


> I'm now 61 yrs old.
> 
> You'll have to remember though that these were designed and drawn by a 13~14 year old boy...


If my math is correct....that was before we landed on the Moon..


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## piotrsko (Dec 9, 2007)

It was also before: color TV, small personal computers, DVD, cellphones, integrated circuits, and a host of other common things of today. BTDT, moved on......

So you translated the goettengen data? I'm a naca 64 series fan for gliders.


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## Jarel Design (Jul 2, 2015)

Totally laughing my head off with all the "dated landmarks"!!!!

I don't "feel" 61... My brain and heart are still 18, but when I get out of bed in the morning, my body just laughs at me!

Just learned that EV Drives is in Port Townsend Wash (drive-able distance) and that Alltrax is in Grants pass (less than 25 miles away)!

The "Universe" is laying out a red carpet for me!

Anyone know of battery suppliers in the Portland/Seattle area?

I stayed up until 3AM last night researching... Found a reverse trike "kit" that is close to the direction I am wanting to go:

http://www.rqriley.com/xr3.htm

OK... Looked at the calender and I have 5 little robotic creatures I have to ship to... Ooops, (I'm really losing my mind here... the highlighted July 15th date was the deadline for my last project that I completed a week early! I have until the 21st to get these little guys done! Whew!

This is what happens when I become obsessed (EV)... I loose track of everything...

I guess pointing out that all of those high tech items and landing on the moon you guys listed may explain (age-wise), why my mind is so capable of getting lost/confused...

My question list is starting to take shape... At some point I'm hoping one of you might be able/willing(?) to answer "overview" questions (assessment), as to motor size (KW and voltage), vehicle weight: I would provide once I get an idea of the frame build), performance (speed and range) and share some ideas as to how many AH I would need to attain this? I'm sure there's a computer program out there that can calculate this info... Is it hard to learn how to use?

I'm still wondering if 48v is the right choice... I feel more comfortable with the lower voltage (simplicity, weight and cost of batteries etc...), but again, I'm still learning and not wanting to stay "stuck" in an unfounded opinion.

Aaack! It's trash day... Have to empty the studio and shop cans and get everything out to the curb!

Bye!


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## hmincr (Jan 20, 2012)

The Chevy Volt battery comes in 48V (45V actual) (8) modules that could fit right inside that center beam chassis. You are in prime territory to buy a Volt battery, with under 20,000 miles, for $2000.00, or 12.5 cents/watt hour, or less. No where else can you get Lithium batteries, already built into 45 Amp/hr modules, for that money. Strip off a little weight, and you get 16Kwh battery under 350 ponds.

The Volt says 45 miles on pure electric drive, so, I KNOW you can beat that with your skills-designs.

You could also wire them as 2-48V modules in series (4 modules A 360Ahr) at 96V (90V actual) and get better mileage by not pushing the motor controller in the higher Amp/hr capacity. Double the Voltage, half the Amperes.


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## Jarel Design (Jul 2, 2015)

hmincr:

Thanks for the input!

From what I read in your post, there are 8 modules per car battery? That would be 8ea 45 volt, 45AH modules?

Any idea how much one module weighs?

My experience with lithium batteries has been with RC aircraft. matching packs and power/performance in terms of rpms with a given prop in terms of rpms per volt... Will I notice? Miss those 3 extra volts dropping from 48v down to 45v? (I "think" this is a 7% drop in voltage? ...not including voltage drop due to age and condition of battery.)

Considering that I'm not interested in racing and focused more on range with maximum speeds in the 45pmh to 55mph (never faster than 55mph... I've upped my goals a little... If I can accomplish 55mph, I'm thinking why not reach for it?), I'm thinking (guessing) that if I play all my design cards right, I can make up for performance (off the line starts) and maximum mph in my design efforts.

I know how much aerodynamics plays into overall efficiency as well as curb weight and planning on focusing my design/engineering efforts on both. I'm thinking that if I up the gearing (Sprocket sizes), "just a little" keeping within amp loading of the motor and controller (I'm looking at the Altrax DCX500 @ 500 amps and the D&D ES-10E-33 motor which is rated for 36v-48v. They claim 8hp @ 48v (I don't know the watts), with a peak of 15hp (also at 48v). (again, I don't know how to convert hp to watts)

My design parameters are seeking best efficiency (driving 25mph to 55mph and hoping for 30 to 50 mile range). I KNOW I can streamline this vehicle a lot, along with engineering/designing the frame, body etc to be as light as possible (I still have no real idea on the weight, but I'm taking a stab in the dark (very dark), of 850 lbs without driver, passenger or batteries...

How do you think one Chevy volt battery module will fit into these goals? (I'm guessing the motor/controller set up I'm looking at uses a lot less juice than the Chevy volt? (Of course, I have no idea what kind of load I'm going to experience with the motor yet...)

God! I wished I knew how to figure this out... My math is horrible!!!

The bright side of not having those extra 3 volts (or more) will be less worrying about overloading the drive system! 

Thanks for the suggestion! The Chevy Volt battery modules sound VERY reasonable and super appropriate for this project!

Best,
Richard


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## Jarel Design (Jul 2, 2015)

*Re: My first EV design concept sketch*

I found it!

Sure wish I had dated it at the time I drew this... I'm pretty sure it was between 8th and 10th grade (Middle school to early high school). late 1960's? For the period, I think I was pretty "futuristic" design-wise...

This concept was based on 20" bicycle wheels, cannibalizing an existing upright adult tricycle frame for the rear end, re-working the front frame to be able to use a linkage to a steering wheel, no active suspension whatsoever and using a 12 volt battery with whatever motor I might find (I think I was considering a 12v auto starter motor.(I had NO IDEA of ANYTHING regarding power and efficiency! LOL!) (night driving lights were attached to the top of the front fork to guide light towards wherever I was planning on going.)

And, off course I "knew" where my "priorities" were:

A young teenager HAS TO HAVE tunes! Note the conspicuous radio antennae popping up out of the roof! LOLOLOL!

Just had to share... My dream to build and EV trike is now 47 years old...

I think it's time to do it!

Enjoy!


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## Jarel Design (Jul 2, 2015)

*Re: First concept sketch: PS:*

That chrome disk on the side was NOT a gas tank cap!!! 

I figured (even back then), that I wouldn't get far, so that chrome cap was where the on-board battery charger cord would be pulled out of.


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## Jarel Design (Jul 2, 2015)

*Re: Horsepower to Watts conversion*

Just found the info! 

1 hp = 645.69 watts

So the motor & controller I'm looking at is rated between:

5.9 KW (Continuous)

to:

11.2 KW (Peak... But they don't say for how long)

Just shipped out my previous project. Going to spend a "little time" here before getting back to work.


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## hmincr (Jan 20, 2012)

As I posted earlier, a complete Volt battery, after stripping off the fibreglass cover and trimming fat in other areas, would weigh about 350 pounds. You do not have to use them all. It's just that the Volt gets 45 miles/charge, according to GM. 

The cells measure 6.5" wide X 9" high X .219" thick. There is 7-45V modules and 2-23V modules, which make up a total of 8-45V modules. My Volt battery weighed 515 pounds including the pallet. Each 2 KW (45V) module weighs 42 pounds.

Technically, 45V and 24V is how they are listed by GM, but, the 45 and 23 are NOMINAL, voltages. Lithium have a nearly flat discharge curve, once you use the TOP OFF or hot off the charger voltage, from 48 down to 45, unlike lead Acid cells, that drop down as you use them. 
Speed takes higher voltage. You have a total available Kwh of 16.5. You like calculators, so, figure 16,500 watts, divided by 48V and you get Amps. Now figure 16,500 watts divided by 90V. and you have the same available ENERGY, you have just cut the amp (heat) value in half.

Running at a lower voltage (45) will take more amps, which could increase more heat in the controller and motor, IF you don't keep the RPM's high enough to keep from "lugging" the motor, same as driving a gas engine car up a hill. IF you don't feed more gasoline, the car slows and that creates more heat, also. HEAT is your enemy. 

You will find, driving an electric car or motorcycle, is very different from driving a gasoline car or motorcycle, only in the sense of the electric motor is much more efficient at higher RPM's, so it's not lugging. Therefore, 90V at half the amps of the 45V system, would be much better for the cruising, and, still have punch for passing or getting out of the way of idiot drivers. 

Simple formula for electric stuff, Ohm's Law. V X A = Watts. Watts divided by V =Amps and watts divided by Amps + Volts. 

I have been gathering parts for my Reverse Tadpole. I have 3-14" Yamaha Moped front wheels. One is on my homemade bicycle/motorcycle, that I am now, riding around, getting used to 2 wheels, since my last drive was in 1962, on a Harley '74 side shifter. Bici/moto has 20 Nissan Leaf cells at 74V 33 Ahr. 

I'm about to turn 72 years old and want stability, something a delta trike won't have, at any speed over 40 MPH. Both moped wheels have drum brakes, and, I just activated the regen to help with recharging the battery and not need brakes so much. I plan a large rear hubmotor, maybe mounted mid drive with a low and high range, so I can climb 1500' elevation to my house, by keeping the RPM's higher, and still run 50 MPH on the highway. 

I'm sure someone will correct me if I wrote something incorrect. I'm still learning this stuff.

You can be sure I am watching this thread.  Good luck


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## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

Jarel Design said:


> As I see it now, I need to decide on a motor (regenerative capable as I do see the gas motor being able to drive the vehicle while using the motor to re-charge the batteries)


I am a little concerned with this. Regen does charge the batteries, but regen typically uses energy that would have been wasted heat. Using the gas engine to generate energy through your motor and controller to charge the batteries does not add up right.


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## Jarel Design (Jul 2, 2015)

*Re: I think my brain is full! LOL!*

hmincr:

Thank you!

Are you familiar with an old comic strip: "The Far Side"...? 

There's one where the kid in class, sitting at his desk has his hand raised in class... The caption:

"Teacher... Can I be excused? I think my brain is full!" 

I "think" I get what you're saying... I understand the amps and battery capacity... I've used it a lot with my planes...

It may very well be that my brain actually is full! (I'm designing, engineering and building 5 small robotic characters for a client that are due on the 21st. I only received the project July 1st!

As I understand you, (something I didn't know), is that the motor finds it's highest efficiency at higher RPMs? (Is this straight across the board, or are there different windings (wire diameter) to change the characteristics of a particular motor?)

If I understand you further, If I still want to stay with a 48volt system, my alternative to making this work efficiently is stick to lower EV speeds and switch to the gas engine for higher highway speeds... (As one option)

I'm really trying to understand all of this "fluently" so that when I go searching for motors and controllers and focusing/tightening my performance parameters/goals, I will be better prepared to "think" in EV mode and understand better (translate to real world terms) the numbers I'm reading...

I'm going to print out your post and study it closer, following you math so that I can "get it"... I'm one of those that learns by doing... Words, often go in one ear and out the other... but If I follow slowly and apply what I'm learning, I get it as if I had known it my whole life...

I would LOVE to see your "Tadpole"!!!!! 

I'm going to check your profile and see if there's a history of your posts to see if it's in this forum...

Thank you again!

Richard


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## hmincr (Jan 20, 2012)

Don't have a tadpole, yet. What I'm looking to do is, a Brudeli Type, only a tad bigger and more enclosure. 

http://www.brudelitech.com

Back to you, tomorrow. I'm bushed.


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## Jarel Design (Jul 2, 2015)

Evmetro:

In a previous post, you wrote:
"I am a little concerned with this. Regen does charge the batteries, but regen typically uses energy that would have been wasted heat. Using the gas engine to generate energy through your motor and controller to charge the batteries does not add up right."

Could you please elaborate?

(Please remember, I am EAGERLY still learning and want to learn more!)

My "plan" and thought behind it is:

If "coasting" (braking), with the drive wheel spinning the motor producing whatever amount of regenerative battery power available, I'm thinking that if I'm running the ICE on the highway, I could have the motor spinning (PTO) from the gas engine in a similar way to serve the same purpose... 

I know this would make the ICE less efficient, but for the style of driving we intend to do (Longer country drives (Most likely, using the ICE for all or most of those distances), then pulling into small towns (Switching to electric) to explore them, this kind of system would serve us perfectly.

There's still a lot I have to learn and from what I have been taught here and more that I've learned by reading other threads, 48volts is not written in stone yet... still considering upping the system to possibly 72 volts...

I do KNOW that what I will be building will not be a "pure" EV, but this system will give us the option of driving purely EV around town and shorter commuting with the capability of recharging batteries while on ICE and being able to get back home should the batteries be depleted to a point where I don't want to damage them.

When you say that It doesn't "add up right", are you saying that this idea cannot be done, or that from an efficiency position, that I'm not getting as much from my system? 

I'm open to hearing what you think.

Best,
Richard


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## Jarel Design (Jul 2, 2015)

PS:

From what I've been learning about voltage and efficiency with higher volts/lower amps and how the higher speeds that I've bumped up my performance parameters, I've decided to limit EV powered speeds back down to 35mph (40mph max), saving the ICE for speeds higher than these...

I'm "hoping" for an EV range of 30 to 50 miles... I'm getting a better "idea" as to curb weight, but guessing (without enough fabrication information) of between 750lbs to 1,000 lbs with batteries.

I'm working hard to define my performance parameters before deciding on what EV system components to use... (Cost and weight of additional batteries for a higher voltage are additional deciding factors.)

Richard


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## Moltenmetal (Mar 20, 2014)

I profess a great deal of ignorance with respect to this because motorcycles are totally foreign to me, but I can imagine an arrangement by which an AC motor and regenerative controller could be used to operate this vehicle as a parallel hybrid. The controls could be designed to generate an adjustable amount of "drag" regenerative braking for bulk charging using the IC engine as powersource during highway cruising- which is what you say you want- but in reality you'd probably do most of your charging from the grid while parked and supplement that via regenerative braking only during highway IC engine powered driving, i.e. charging only when you need to slow down. That would waste less energy as well as costing you less money. That alone would not likely give you anywhere near full replacement of the energy taken out of the pack during EV driving, cruising around in the little towns taking in the sights, but that would only matter if you intended to drive more than 50 pure EV miles before you got a chance to plug in and recharge again from the grid. 

The AC motor shaft would spin all the time that your IC engine turns, but most of the time it would just freewheel. The load it adds would amount to nothing more than the friction of the motor's bearings and its cooling fan blade (which is generally directly attached to the motor shaft). Minor efficiency loss.

I imagine some complications with using the motor to assist the IC engine for forward driving like a real full-on parallel hybrid, but perhaps I only imagine them.

I'm not clearly understanding how you intend to de-couple the IC engine from the AC drive motor but leave the AC motor coupled to the drivetrain when you want to be in pure EV mode- but that's just because I don't understand the drive arrangement/transmission you intend to use.


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## Jarel Design (Jul 2, 2015)

Molten metal:

THANK YOU! My primary concern was IF this was even possible...

The amount of AH I would be putting into the battery is not that important... I'm thinking that in reality, we would use the ICE power system for highway driving and not depleting too much of the batteries. What I see as to what I am actually designing, is a super high mpg vehicle with the option of going pure EV... when I choose and being able to switch between the two wile driving.

How I am imagining coupling the ICE to the EV motor would be to attach a second forward sprocket (on the ICE output sprocket). The ICE chain sprocket would be directly connected to the rear wheel. For pure EV, I would put the ICE transmission into neutral (Lots of safeguards and indicator lights on the dash as needed), to drive the rear wheel on electric power only... Laughing here: Of course, this is purely theoretical engineering at the moment and we all LOVE "theoretical engineering", because "everything works"! LOL!

When the ICE is engaged, the engine and transmission would then be powering the rear wheel AND turning the EV motor (which would then be charging). I realize I would be loosing some power from the ICE, but I would also be able to top off, trickle charge etc, the batteries to "extend" (not fully charge from empty), the range of the batteries when using EV power. 

Again, I am only putting together ideas, designing/engineering concepts and gathering data to see if components (motor, battery (and voltage) as well as controller) will fit correctly and work in the kind of hybrid system I'm thinking of.

Among other things I have considered, was reverse for backing out of parking spaces,etc.... I'm only looking at DC motors at the moment (reversible and regenerative capable), and have learned that I need to have the reverse circuitry set up for a REALLY LOW rpm (EXTREMELY slow reverse) for safety issues. I don't want to accidentally accelerate into the parked car behind me! 

Another issue I have been mentally designing is the braking system.

I've seen throttle controls (particularly motorcycle), where when the throttle grip ("gas" pedal (on a vehicle like this), was depressed forward, the vehicle would go forward, when the (twist motorcycle grip"), gas pedal is let go of, the vehicle "brakes"... (regenerative mode)... However, while driving, if the driver had an "itch" on their foot or leg or needed to remove their foot from the gas pedal, the vehicle would stop... This is totally not "intuitive" as to how we drive in the real world and presents huge safety issues... Not to mention my wanting to also use the hydraulic disc brakes on the wheels!

My thought on a solution to this is to have the "go/gas pedal" start at "neutral" with the ability to be "pushed back" for regenerative braking... When the gas pedal is released, it would go to neutral and not regenerative braking. 

My concept is to have the brake pedal mechanically connected (sliding linkage), to the gas pedal so that when you press on the brake pedal it pushes the gas pedal further back and places the motor in regenerative braking mode... Some slack (via a sliding linkage), would allow intuitive use of the brake pedal to place the motor in regenerative braking/charging mode... If the driver presses further on the brake pedal, it would engage the master cylinder for the forward brakes and the mechanical linkage for the rear brake for more aggressive braking.

This would leave only three "normal" pedals on the floor... Gas, brake and clutch (for the ICE power system) and would fit the instinctive (intuitive) use of the pedals.

There would be a center console gear shift lever/stick for the ICE transmission. I still haven't thought of a reverse for it without the use of a second "gear shift stick". I need to choose a motorcycle donor that has a neutral light indicator... even better would be an indicator as to which gear the transmission was in.

Just details (HA! Laughing at myself as I learn more and more just how complicated this vehicle will be to design and engineer... but again, this kind of "stuff" is what makes my heart soar! I still remember wanting to build a flying machine... The first one crashed on takeoff, the second one was designed a lot more conservatively but did not have the performance i was seeking. The third one (at the time) was only one of three rigid wing, joystick controlled (not weight shift), ultralight hang gliders around!

I NEVER give up and so very much appreciate the knowledge you guys have shared with me!!! The support (even trying to steer me away from what I thought i was going to do (like upping the voltage from 48v to 72v), I have received has been invaluable and again, appreciated so very much!!!

Regarding 48v and 72v... I found a very similar motor to what I had planned on using (D&D ES-32C-7), that does have regenerative braking capabilities (Separately excited) and reverse capabilities. 

Rating:
48v-72v
9hp (6,711.28 watts)
60ft/lbs torque (Peak)
31hp (Peak) with a 500amp controller

I still have to figure out more info (like weight etc) to be able to do the math to decide on batteries (weight and capacity). I did find a single seat trike on YouTube (the guy described all the components agave some performance specs: 70mph (max), 35 to 60 mile range (depending on driving), using 100hr Thundersky LiPo cells ("72 volt" using 24 LiPo packs with calculated voltage just over 76.8 volts)

His vehicle was a single seat trike with empty weight (no passenger) of 840 lbs.

This kind of information in addition to what has been shared with me on this thread, gives me a MUCH better "ballpark" expectation as to what is possible, helping guide me towards my ultimate design.

OK... Need to get back to work... I completed some vacuum form molds yesterday and I need to create the plastic parts I will be using for my current prototype projects.

Until next time,

Best to you all and thank you again!!!

Richard


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## Jarel Design (Jul 2, 2015)

*Re: 72v controller suggestions?*

Hello all,

Still working like a madman here (I used up a LOT of "work-time" coming here and researching that probably should have been spent working on my current client prototype projects... 

I have been researching a LOT here!

I've decided to go up to 72 volts.

The motor I've chosen so far is:

D&D ES-32C-7 (Separately Excited Field winding, regenerative and reverse capable.)
 6.7 KW @ 72v continuous
23.1 KW @ 72v Peak (using 500 amp controller)

Not sure that I will ever use that much power even at peak, but I'd rather have a controller that I would not worry about blowing up.

I had planned on using the Alltrax AXE 7245 Controller rated at 450 Amps (programmable with 1/2 speed reverse throttle and more).

The problem is: I just discovered that this controller is designed for SERIES wound motors and (from contact with their tech department), is incapable of regenerative braking... Their tech informed me that their company does not make a controller that fits my needs.

Any suggestions?

PS: The list price for this controller is $628 (I'm not out to spend a "lot" of money but I do know that I want a high quality controller, preferably programmable (with home PC), regenerative braking, 1/2 reverse throttle, I would also "like" to have a programmable low voltage shut down feature as well as high amp shut down.)

Regarding a BMS: I've been reading a LOT about this and see that there is definitely a divided stance and yes/no and what type. Regardless of what I choose or not, I've decided to stay within conservatively safe parameters of staying well under max current draw and only taking batteries down to 30%. (I'm not a "racer" and will have the option of switching to ICE when batteries reach 30% capacity. I will also use dashboard battery monitor(s) to keep abreast of battery pack condition and throttle use.) Also, regardless of what I choose for BMS, I have the equipment (any ears of experience), to manually balance and cycle individuals cells of the Li-Po packs I use for my work...

OK... back to work and starting from scratch (again! LOL) on finding a controller.

Best,

Richard


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## samwichse (Jan 28, 2012)

Dare I recommend Kelly around here?

http://kellycontroller.com/kdz72553gdz24v-72v550aseparately-excited-with-regen-p-988.html


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## Jarel Design (Jul 2, 2015)

Hi Samwichse,

THANKS!

I have two questions.

Question #1:
I couldn't find "reverse" feature on this model (I'm rushed with my work, so I might have missed it?)

I found these two Kelly controllers earlier this morning:

KDZ72503
PM72501B

The motor I've chosen (so far), is the D&D ES-32C-7
6.7KW @ 72v (Continuous)
23.1KW @ 72v (Peak)

Any thoughts between these three controllers (Your link and the two I found)?


Question #2:

"Dare you mention Kelly around here"
Is this a controversial brand? dissatisfied users, reliability issues, other? (I've heard the brand name mentioned in other threads I've read researching other information but have no idea as to "Kelly" quality/reliability.)

I spent 10 minutes researching controllers and could only find the Kelly brand that had the features I'm looking for. No other name brands came up in this preliminary first internet search.

(If you don't want to share you opinions/thoughts on this brand "in the open" for any reason, I'd welcome a PM.)

I haven't exhausted my search, just surprised that "Kelly was the only one that showed up after quite a few Google pages presented for my search.

Thanks again!

Richard

(I need to turn off my incoming email signal, as I keep leaving my desk (and my work!), to see if any replies showed up here! LOL!


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

samwichse said:


> Dare I recommend Kelly around here?


I wouldn't 

See what you can find from Curtis or Sevcon, and maybe Navitas(?).

Setting up a SepEx is a crap shoot if you don't know what you're doing. See if you can get parameters from the motor or controller vendor. Best to get the pair (system) from one place preprogrammed. Otherwise, I recommend to use a series motor system. And I like SepEx.

I don't believe Kelly knows what they're doing with SepEx and you always have to derate Kelly 50%.

major


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## Jarel Design (Jul 2, 2015)

Thank you Major!

I've heard of Curtis (found a few but not with the parameters I wanted (again, it was a brief search... I'll go back on line and learn more.)

I've also heard of Sevcon and will look them up.

Never heard of Navitas but will look them up too.

I DON'T know what I'm doing so I'll shy away from Sepex...

Thank you! This kind of information is so valuable for me... I continue learning as I do the research myself... When I find something I "think" will work, I'll come back here and ask more questions...

(And no... I did NOT turn off my incoming email alarm! LOL! (I've become so addicted to the learning curve and understanding better, what I'm getting into... Speaking of which, not only have I upped the voltage to 72v, but I've totally ruled out anything that is not a LiPo battery! (looking at 100AH and 160AH (considering that this vehicle will be capable of ICE travel and recharging in ICE mode, (Depending on what kind of range I can get on EV power), the weight and cost savings of the 100AH is looking pretty inviting.... I think around here for local travel, of exploring a town after arriving on ICE power, 30 to 50 miles (at 25mph to 35mph), would cover most of our needs

Thanks again Major!


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## samwichse (Jan 28, 2012)

Yeah, Kelly is cheap, but their product is... cheap.

They don't have built-in reverse, BTW.


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## Jarel Design (Jul 2, 2015)

I'm on lunch...

I researched the Curtis and Navitas webssites and they both are limited to 48v

I did find one at Sevcon... Seems to fit my needs, but no specs on reverse. I emailed them about that as well as what happens when my motor "asks" for more KW than their controller is spec'd at.

Do "most controllers faced with this situation shut down, limit the power consumption or burn up?


The motor I still want to use is rated at 6.7 continuous and 23.1 Peak. The one controller that would fit my needs IF it has reverse feature is rated at "Max. 8.5 KW".

So much to learn! 

OK back to work.

Thanks for all your input! It's really helping guide me to configuring the power system for this project!!!

Richard


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## Jarel Design (Jul 2, 2015)

PS:

Another question:

I've read the term "Traction motor" in a lot of different places. Could someone please share what this is/means? And how it applies to the motor I'm hoping to use? (DC separately excited field windings)

Thanks!

Richard


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## ken will (Dec 19, 2009)

Jarel Design said:


> The motor I still want to use is rated at 6.7 continuous and 23.1 Peak.


Alltrax DCX500 Motor Controller is good for 12 KW continuous and 24 KW Peak.
http://www.evdrives.com/product_p/con-dcx500pds.htm


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## Jarel Design (Jul 2, 2015)

Thanks Ken,

Unfortunately after reading TONS of info on voltages and performance, looking at the specs on other similar weight/72v vehicles etc... I recently upped my voltage from 48v to 72v and this controller is only rated for 36v - 48v (Actually, it was the one I intended to use when I was still thinking about 48v...)

(Maybe this is why (in the back of my mind), I wanted to stick with 48v...? Now that I understand what a 72v motor is capable of doing relative to the 48v, I'm now really "stuck" on going with the 72v (mostly for the efficiency/range)...)

BE careful who your teaching! LOL! When I "learn", my mind can be turned towards the better idea/solution when I understand and recognize it without any ego involved. (Really laughing here as when I was "stuck" on 48v, I really was "stuck"... this project has grown into a 72v vehicle.

Back to work... 

Richard


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

Jarel Design said:


> PS:
> 
> Another question:
> 
> ...


The forklift industry where the vehicle has multiple motors has always referred to it as the traction motor. Other motors will be pump motors and auxiliary motors or power steering motor, etc. Traction motor means propulsion motor, sometimes called a drive motor.

And the SepEx systems pretty much always includes reverse. It is a value feature because it is accomplished without the large contactors required for series motor reversing. The controller uses a high current half bridge for the armature and a low current full bridge for the field which gives reverse field capability essentially for free (basically just requires logic).

major


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## Moltenmetal (Mar 20, 2014)

Why not an HPEVS AC15 and matching Curtis controller? Brush free so maintenance free, AC so regen is dead easy, and so is reversing- just a switch connected to the controller. A little mire expensive than DC but easy.


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## Jarel Design (Jul 2, 2015)

Thank you so much for the suggestions...

I worked late last night...I'M REALLY BEHIND!!!

But I also spent some time looking up the different controllers and AC system in the wee hours of the morning.

I never even considered AC (not sure why... Probably because I was more familiar with DC LiPo systems?), so I need to research more regarding comparisons between AC and DC systems (mostly interested in efficiency and range for a given battery (looking at 100ah and 160ah at 72 volts)... 20 cells for 72v? (I've seen some use 24 cells.)

I did find a Curtis controller that fits what I need using the D&D motor. The price for the motor and controller: $1552

The AC-12 with 1236-6301 controller: $2,230... Seems to provide more horsepower? What about efficiency compared with the above system? (Can't yet justify the almost $1,000 extra, but we'll see what I learn next!)

The only thing I didn't like about the AC system was the need for a separate reverse switch (minor I guess, but I also want to be able to reduce power available in reverse.)


A lot to think about and more to learn: ex: "traction motors"... 

Ha! Reminds me of a conversation I had a few years ago with a designer working on a complex project. In his description he kept saying: "I figure you can use poly-miracle for the flexing parts." I had NO idea what "Poly-miracle" was!!! Near the end of our conversation, I came out (embarrassed) and I admitted that I didn't know what "poly-miracle" was... a compound? a name brand?

He just laughed his head off...

You don't know about "Poly-Miracle????

You do know what "unobtanium" is don't you?

I then laughed my head off... I had been using the term "unobtanium" with clients for years trying to describe something that was impossible!

The designer shared that "Poly-miracle" was the cure/solution for "unobtanium"! 

OK... I'm going to try and stay off this computer today and see if I can catch up with my robotic projects... (maybe a quick peek for lunch? LOL!)

Thanks again guys... I am learning so much!

Best,
Richard


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## Jarel Design (Jul 2, 2015)

[h1]Hello all![/h1]

Well I shared that I might not be back “for a while” (Working 12+hrs a day!). This morning, I asked for and received a one-week extension for the deadline on these little robotic prototypes! (First time in over 20 years!) Based on the video I sent the clients of the first robotic creature, they were thrilled and happy to extend the deadline, even asking if I was available for the next phase of development! (Whew!) 

As a “stress reducer”, (kind of funny but true), I have now read almost EVERY thread in EVERY forum regarding ANYTHING applicable to my project… in the middle of the night when I couldn’t get to sleep. Needless to say, I have learned a LOT!

I’ve decided to go with a DC system rather than AC. Reasons: Cost and complexity especially since there are very few “affordable” controllers that have the features I want within the 72v range… And, I really like the possibilities and flexibility (mostly through the programmable controller), of the components I have chosen this far:

Here is what I now have as my component system:

*Motor: D & D ES-32C-7 (Separately Excited Winding)*

72v DC: 6.7KW-9hp (Continuous) 23.1KW-31hp (Peak)
$745

Controller: Sevcon (72v-80v) PowerPak 632S84622
“Completely” Programmable (Up to 500A)
$650

Battery Pack: LiFeYPo4 100AH (20-24 cells: 68v-81v @ 3.4v per cell)
Any suggestions regarding the “actual-real world-realistic”
voltages of a 20 cell vs. a 24 cell pack (or anything in between), for this system and it’s application/use? 
$135ea ($2,700 for 20 cells) 

Digital Display: Sevcon “Clearview” (Multiple inputs, mph, Amps, 
Battery pack condition, Temp., System Status, etc…)
$350

Charger: Elcon PFC1500 (On-Board: 1.5KW, 24v – 120v) 
$575

BMS:
I’m not sure if I will use one: I’ve read so many threads with varying strong opinions from pro to con. (Pro: Taking care of the battery system. Con: relying on a BMS to keep cells balanced without periodically checking each cell manually).

If I am going to check the cells individually (which I am already disciplined to do so with my R/C LiPo packs), I have a digital (Programmable and sensing), battery charger/discharger (6A max), that will tell me the condition of each cell and can be programmed to bring each cell to balance (up or down), with other cells within the pack. I do this all the time with my RC LiPo flight packs and have had most of them for many years. 

From what I’ve read, as long as I don’t over stress the battery pack, they should remain balanced for some time. I plan to deplete the pack to no less than 30% and do not intend to draw more than 3C (continuous), at any one time. Anything over that will be half of the 10C rating (5C), which should be controllable/programmable by the Sevcon controller.

Unless there are STRONG opinions and reasons why I should use one, I will forego incorporating a BMS into this vehicle system.

Estimated vehicle weight (with batteries, but without passengers): <1,000 lbs. (Building a tubular frame and a Carbon fiber/fiberglass epoxy body and other scratch built items like dashboard, seats etc. this should be easily attainable.)

This will be an EXTREMELY aerodynamically efficient Reverse Trike design using the stock rear wheel/tire and large diameter/hard rubber/inflation pressures on the front wheels to reduce rolling resistance.

“Desired” speed (on EV): Less than 40mph-45mph. Most EV usage will be under 35mph.

“Desired” range: 30 to 40 miles using the 100AH cells (depending on weight, I may bump this up to the 160AH cells. Both to extend range and available “Peak power” keeping well below the peak C rating. (I really want to “baby” the LiPo pack!)

I will be using a 400cc - 500cc motorcycle engine/rear chassis for this reverse trike; so regenerative on-board charging should be readily available. I plan to use the ICE system for speeds over those limited by my planned usage of the EV system.

I plan to mount the motor via chain drive to a second sprocket on the output of the ICE. The motor will be constantly turning under ICE power (Which is why I bumped up the ICE size from 250cc to 500cc), and when in EV/Battery powered mode, the ICE will be placed in neutral so the EV motor’s “extra” parasitic drag caused by this kind of set up should be minimal (hopefully).

I’ve figured out most of the systems: (Single brake pedal to activate regenerative braking and hydraulic disc brakes, shifting the ICE transmission and incorporating an EV reverse output to the same shifter), but have still not figured out the logistics of using the “go-pedal” (I want to use only one go pedal!), regarding it’s electrical power feed to the motor while under ICE power and possibly interfering with the regenerative charging of the batteries while stepping on the single go pedal while throttling the ICE system. If this feature is not programmable in the controller, I may have to design a mechanical linkage to isolate the EV pot input to the electrical system from the ICE throttle function.

I would appreciate any and all feedback (questions, faults in my thinking and/or approval).

Thanks!

Richard

OK… Back to work!


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

Hi Richard

One possible niggle with your design, I think that is a brushed motor - if you drive through the motor with the IC engine you must ensure that the motor is either driving or being driven (acting as a generator) - running the brushes for long periods with no current flow is a no no - it wears out the brushes and the com
If it is a brushless motor forget this comment


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## Jarel Design (Jul 2, 2015)

Thank you Duncan!

I'm "assuming" it's a brushed motor... All I know is that it is DC, SepEx.

I did NOT know about what you shared!!!  OMG!!! (Always learning here! 

So here is a question... The way I have it mechanically designed, the motor will always be turning when the ICE is running.

If I understand you correctly, this motor must be either driving the vehicle (powered), OR connected to regenerate to charge the batteries (either way, current is flowing though the motor and it doesn't care if it's role is a generator or a motor? As a hybrid, I can imagine running the ICE a lot during long road trips; not so much for most of the time. (We're lucky to get out a couple of times a month for a "car hike".)

IF the batteries are fully charged, I'm guessing the controller will either limit or shut off the charge to the batteries. If this is so, then would this fall into the category of turning the motor without power being fed to it, or fed from it?

If what I understand from you is correct, I'm thinking that I have two choices with this set up... 

1st choice:
When the batteries are charged (through regen) on a long road trip, I can switch back over to electric power to drive the rear drive wheel (Ultimately this is my #1 purpose for choosing to create a hybrid!), even if this means my electric ("high efficiency" use of the motor, not stressing the batteries or the controller via high amperage usage trying to drive at higher speeds), reduces my speed from whatever ICE speed I'm traveling on the hwy... (If the EV mode propels me close to whatever highway speed I'm traveling under ICE power, all the better! My "purpose" for this vehicle is to accept the use of fuel for the ICE, but increase the miles per gallon as much as I can.) I feel confident about obtaining 100mpg, but I'm hoping to reach 200mpg or more. (This will be dependent on what kind of drag/load/ is placed on the ICE while turning the motor as a generator. If this is not a "lot", I could use a smaller ICE to help with the fuel economy. I originally was thinking of a 250cc ICE. now (before you share your thoughts on this detail, I'm looking at the Honda CB400 and CB500... Rather go with the smaller of the two,)

2nd choice:
Design a mechanical engage/disengage device between the ICE and the motor. (I'd rather not, but at the same time, I don't want to wear out my motor prematurely...)

If it's ok to run in regen or powered up mode, I'm guessing the lifespan of my motor would be the same as if I were just driving this vehicle as a pure electric?

Thank you again SO MUCH!!!

Richard


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

Hi Richard
You really need Major to chime in about how much current is required - I know that I was told that towing my car (direct drive) was not a good idea because it would wear out the brushes/com
The brushes are designed to work with a certain current flow - I don't know how sensitive they are to the amount
Hoping Major will help


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## Jarel Design (Jul 2, 2015)

Thanks Duncan,

If he doesn't show up in a day or two, I'll send him a PM asking if he would mind reading over my system components and how I hope to use them to see what he suggests.

I've read a LOT of threads where he's chimed in with great info! I would be honored to have his input.

For now, Back to work! LOL!

Richard


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

Haven't had time to keep up with the whole thread. But you should not run a DC commutator motor unpowered for lengthy periods. Minimum current might be on the order of 20% of rated but just a guess depending on many factors. 

On a hybrid when not using the DC motor, decouple it and put it to sleep. However, using the AC motor (like the AC-15) and keeping it coupled and spinning is preferred IMO.


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## Moltenmetal (Mar 20, 2014)

I agree with Major: since regen is an integral part of this design, I suggest that you spring for the extra money and go with AC. Just my two cents, worth less than that, but that's what you paid for them.

AC isn't the right solution for everybody, and it's delightful to see how cheap you can go with DC solutions for low power like this. Saving $1000 is definitely tempting- but AC is just going to work better for you here. Not a direct analogy, but heck, just look at an ICE car- they have alternators, not generators or magnetos, and have had for a very, very long time.


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## Jarel Design (Jul 2, 2015)

*Re: Changing my mind... AGAIN!!! =D*

Thank you!
Thank you!
THANK YOU!!!

I can't thank you enough!!! (Even when I hear/learn is not what I wanted to hear or learn!) LOL!

I looked up the AC15 and the Curtis 1236-6301 controller and downloaded all the specs and instruction manual for the controller.

I had NO IDEA that an AC controller could be so diverse and programmable!!! (How did I miss this one?!?!?!)  (The DC controller I was considering had similar capabilities and seemed at the time to be the most accommodating..

I'm grateful that you recognized and accepted that my true goal is to produce a true Hybrid vehicle. (It just fits what we want to use it for.)

Just briefly going over the continuous graph, it seems that the AC-15 (at 72v and using the 300A controller will put out more HP for less amp draw! (If I'm right, who could ask for more!?) 

There is a $1,200 difference, but as I've learned over 20 years of buying tools for my shop... Buying the right one for my application has always paid off in the end! (The DC system I had shared is already $1,295 and considering the effort I will be putting into this dream, I think it's the right move to switch to AC... What's another $1,000 in the context of the "big picture" compared with spending $1,295 and NOT getting what I want! (The motor alone is 20lbs lighter!)

So I have one extra week to get these little robot creatures done and I just can't be late again, so it's back to work.

Then... I'll spend A LOT more time studying this AC-15/1236-6301 controller.

I hope it's OK, that after I study this AC system, I can come back with might seem like simple questions? (My first: (Again, I just browsed over lightly the specs and most of the 70+ page controller instruction book): Will this system require a reverse polarity type switch to gain the reverse drive capability (backing up), and will the controller be capable of sensing this to control reverse speed?

Another question: Given all the same parameters, will this AC system provide me with more range? More high end speed? (Again, with the same parameters of babying the batteries not going under 30% drain or over the C ratings.)?

Thank you SO MUCH again!

I totally appreciate that now is the time to learn as much as I am and choose wisely to create exactly what I want. I appreciate even more, your willingness to hold my hand through my research and "steer" me in the right direction!

Have a WONDERFUL day!

Best,

Richard

PS: It could easily be a week or two before I digest this new info/data to be prepared to come back with some "fairly intelligent" questions.

Again... I can't thank you enough!!!


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## Moltenmetal (Mar 20, 2014)

If you look at the sample wiring diagrams for the Curtis controller, you'll see that there's a dedicated reversing switch input- dead easy to wire. The reverse on a three phase AC motor controller is easy- all you're doing is electronically swapping two of the motor phases. The Curtis has separately programmable parameters for acceleration and max current for reverse mode if I recall correctly. It similarly allows an econo-valet-teenager switch which gives you a separate set of parameters for accel, regen braking max current and max forward current. Tons of features- many of which I didn't need on my Spitfire build. And all this with easy regen and no brushes to maintain. Worth the extra bucks for your build's goals in my view.


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## Jarel Design (Jul 2, 2015)

Thank you!

I was truly amazed (just glancing over as I had to get to work), at how many options were available on the kit controller!!! Just overwhelmed! (Wonderfully)

From what I understand, the controller comes pre-programmed and I can speak with or email any special parameters, what for and how I'll be using the system and they can give me suggestions and set everything up, limits etc that I want programmed into it. 

I noticed they even had a "valet" use set of parameters to keep them from "joy riding"! (Yeah, like even if I could go to anyplace that had valet parking... There is NO way I'd ever let anyone else get behind the wheel! (I may set up a "valet" program though for Tresa to learn and get used to the Trike before unleashing her with full power... She's not your typical "girl" (Ski instructor, skydiver, built and paddled a canoe for 4 months traveling from the midwest to the east coast... )

I also saw that Curtis makes an incredible line of plug and play data displays!

Thank you again so much!

I'm looking forward to completing this project, printing out the controller manual and learning more to be prepared if there's something special I want programmed... (Of course, I'll be coming back here to get advice/approval on what I come up with. LOL!)

Best,
Richard

It's dinner time, gotta go... Did I share that she also cooks! (was a chef at a fishing/hunting resort in Alaska and ran several bakeries!


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## ken will (Dec 19, 2009)

Jarel Design said:


> (I may set up a "valet" program though for Tresa to learn and get used to the Trike before unleashing her with full power... She's not your typical "girl" (Ski instructor, skydiver, built and paddled a canoe for 4 months traveling from the midwest to the east coast... )


It sounds like she should use full power and you should use the "valet" program


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## Jarel Design (Jul 2, 2015)

ROFLMHO!!!


You're probably right!

When we go fishing (She still holds the record for the largest Salmon at 45+lbs!), she ALWAYS catches the largest fish!

We also enjoy shooting:
We set up a Ruger 10/22 as a miniature sniper rifle with a great scope. After we dialed it in, we set up accuracy targets on a stand at 100yrds (We glued a marble on the top of the stand... Look up the story of "marble calendar"... If you can't find it, I'll share in another post... GREAT way to live!)

After swapping the rifle back and forth trying to hit the marble with the other person watching through a spotting scope, SHE was the one to hit it!!!! LOL!

OK... On EV subject... Still reading and learning more... This time about AC motors.

As a general overview comparing AC to DC, do I have this right?

An AC motor has more of a flat line regarding torque (having it's torque available through the RPM range.

A DC motor has to get up to higher RPMs to develop its torque?

Does this mean that a DC motor will draw more amps starting from a starting position than an AC motor?

Thanks!

Richard


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

Hi Richard
My "take" on AC v DC

The motors both use magnetic fields to create torque this requires a changing magnetic field as the motor rotates
In order to change the magnetic field we have to change the current fed to the windings

The difference is how the changing current is achieved

DC motor uses brushes and a Com
AC motor uses electronic magic

From this 
(1) The DC motor will be rev limited (compared to the AC) by the brushes/com and by the fact that has coils on the spinning bit (armature)

Everything else is down to the controller!
Torque curve - everything

As far as efficiency is concerned I believe there is very little in it
The DC motor is slightly less efficient - but the AC controller is slightly less efficient
So the two about cancel each other out


_An AC motor has more of a flat line regarding torque (having it's torque available through the RPM range._
No not really - it's more to do with the controller and battery

_A DC motor has to get up to higher RPMs to develop its torque?_
Definitely NOT - most DC motors can develop max torque at zero revs

_Does this mean that a DC motor will draw more amps starting from a starting position than an AC motor?_
Not necessarily - a DC motor can draw more amps if it is also delivering more torque

One thing to remember a DC controller (and I think an AC controller) is a Power In - Power Out device

Example - 150v Battery - 1000amps to motor

Motor revs--------Motor Back EMF --------Required voltage ------Motor current -----Battery Current

Zero -----------------Zero--------------------15v--------------1000amps -------100amps

1000rpm-------------60v---------------------75v---------------1000amps----------500amps

So as the rpms increase the motors "Back EMF" increases which means the controller has to apply more volts

Motor voltage (controlled by controller) x Motor current = Battery voltage x Battery current


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## Jarel Design (Jul 2, 2015)

*Re: I think my brain is shorting out!*

Thank you to all of you who have taken the time to explain all of this in an effort to teach me what I'm trying to learn!

Has anyone here (in their early stages of learning this stuff), ever run into this "feeling":

It seems the more I learn, the less I know! LOL!

As I've researched, I have run into "acronyms" (Example: SepEx ( When someone first wrote that on a post here in this thread, At first, I thought that "Sepex" was a motor or controller brand name!) and now, "Back Motor EMF"! I went on line to learn what that meant (Like I've done with so many other "words" I had no idea of their meaning... 

I'm starting to wonder if I'm "over-thinking" the electrical aspects of what I'm trying to create? (Do I "need" to earn an electro-mechanical PHD to build this project? ...Not being sarcastic...LOL) At the same time, I feel like I have a responsibility to understand what I'm trying to put together and the reasons why. Just don't' know how far to take it.

I have never wanted to burden you great guys with some of the questions I've seen posted on this website where the poster obviously never did any research and wanted others to do it all for them! (I'm now on page 66 of the "Technical Discussions" forum (for the second time!), trying to learn more.) And yet, I feel more and more like such a Newbie, that I can't help but place myself in the same group of posters that want it "_done for them"_ by others.

I just found and joined a local EV club and going to my first meeting this coming Tuesday night. One of the senior members converted and old Metropolitan to EV (108v, 50hp, AC motor). And I hope to begin picking his brain as well.

I want to get on with "designing the vehicle" and have a good idea as to what I can build (weight-wise: around 800lbs with batteries), taking into consideration, performance parameters (EV: 30mph-40mph max with 30-40 mile range on 72v-80v), rolling resistance and aerodynamics and realize I can make this hybrid a reality...

I guess where I am now ("unguarded truth"), is being drawn back to trying to understand what I would be gaining by choosing the AC system over the DC system, to justify the extra $1,000:

D&D ES-32-7 (DC-SepEx) 

72v DC: 6.7KW-9hp (Continuous) 

23.1KW (Peak @ 500A))
Sevcon (72v-80v) PowerPak 632S84622) 



OR:


HPEVS AC 15
Curtis 1236-6301 (72v-300A)
27.92KW (Peak @ 300A)



I know I want to use the regenerative capabilities (of either), to tie in with the ICE for Hybrid.

I "Think" I know that the DC motor's week point is the use of brushes and higher maintenance.

I "think" I know that if my batteries reach full charge while driving on the ICE, that I would damage the DC motor if I didn't switch over to EV mode.
(Curious about alternating back and forth from charging to powering relative to battery and motor temps. The "reality of our longest drives might be between 250 and 500 miles (most likely the lesser).

After learning how to read the power graphs (took hours (for me), to get to the point where I "Think" I understand it), I "Think" that the AC motor is more "efficient" being able to obtain close to the same peak power as the DC motor for 200A less (?). (I "think" that this may mean that this particular AC system might be more "efficient" than this particular DC system?)

At this point (just for the moment, in the emotional, overloaded state my brain is in), I've pushed myself to the point where I just want some "simple input" sharing which I should choose, and why. In "reality", I'm just realizing that understanding fully, may just not be something I'm capable of (again, just for the moment.)

Tresa and I spend "couch time" with coffee each morning and I was trying to explain what was going on inside my brain... She just laughed (in a good way) and said: Honey, you've been at this for weeks putting hours each day! (Neither of us complaining)... I've never seen you get so consumed with trying to learn this stuff and it could just be that you need to take a "Break"... How about if you switched "channels" for a while and played with drawing sketches of the body styling, interior design or mechanical concept drawings of the frame, the set up between the motor and the ICE (yeah, she used the term: "ICE"! She's so "on-board" with my creating this vehicle to the point where when I share a price on a component that is more expensive than a previous choice, she just shares: Do whatever you need! We can cut corners to pay for it.... This has been a dream of yours for over 47years and I fully support you!)  (God! I LOVE her!)

If anyone wants to share what they think between the AC and DC system I'd love to hear and learn... I don't want to "surrender" to asking that most common question: "What motor/controller system should I use for my vehicle?" But at the same time, I failed algebra in high school and do SO MUCH better with mechanical design & engineering: things I can visualize (Awards up the kazoo in spite of my mathematical limitations!) And although I do use a computer (only learning what I "needed" to know to accomplish what I "needed" to), I couldn't find a file in Windows to save my life! LOL!

Whew!

OK... Completed another robotic prototype yesterday; created mechanical concept drawings for #4 and will begin building that one this morning...

I have to say, as much as I've repeated sharing that "I have to get back to work"... I haven't been sleeping at night, opting to get on the computer in our guest bedroom, reading threads on this site trying to learn more (That doesn't include following the links to other sources to continue learning!) LOL!

Thank you again for all your help!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I' not "giving up"... Just starting to believe that I may have been trying to learn so much in such a (relatively) short period of time! (I just looked up the date of my first post here only to see that it has only been just over 2 weeks!

OK... Back to work! (LOL! ...Wished I had a dollar for every time I've typed that phrase on this thread!

Thank you again!

Best Always,

Richard


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## ken will (Dec 19, 2009)

A general rule of thumb is:

Starbuck's people prefer AC motors and Dunkin Donuts people prefer DC motors.


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## Jarel Design (Jul 2, 2015)

ken will said:


> A general rule of thumb is:
> 
> Starbuck's people prefer AC motors and Dunkin Donuts people prefer DC motors.


*OH GOD!!!

THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR THAT LAUGH!!!!!! 

I Can't thank you enough for "breaking" my mental state!

(First laugh I've had here in a long time!)

I only recently realized that I've held this dream for over 47 years... Designing, building and driving off in my "own" EV/Hybrid is such a core goal. When I found this site and started reading (WEEKS before mu first ever post here), I realized my dream was more than possible... 

Replies from so many (starting with you!), confirmed that I wasn't crazy (well, not certifiable anyway)... I have no idea how many (hundreds!) of hours I've spent reading, searching for websites, collecting data, trying to make heads or tails of it all... and the more I kept learning, the more I realized there is SO MUCH that I DON'T know (Which I emotionally interpreted to myself as: this dream is slipping away from me.)

I'm truly laughing here (out loud!  )... Believe it or not, your analogy Worked for me! 

"Now", I "understand!!!! (I know that may sound crazy, but it makes sense relative to how my brain works!)

Shoulder muscles have dropped to relaxed position, trembling/shaking hands have stopped....

Whew!

Thank you Ken! 
*


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

AC v DC

(Admission my "Device" has an 11 inch forklift motor)

AC is the way of the future

2 years ago your choices were - 
Low power AC for $5000
High Power AC for $20,000

High power DC from $2000

Now with people reworking Leaf, Tesla and other power plants its a lot closer!

I thought it would take 5 years for AC to be as affordable as DC - more like 3!

If I was starting again I would be looking at getting a scrap Leaf (AC)

With your specific needs I think AC is the answer - it's a bit more expensive but it's like getting an LCD TV rather than a Plasma
Not that much in it - but LCD (AC) is the way of the future


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## Jarel Design (Jul 2, 2015)

Hi Duncan,

No "admission" necessary... I take it as you traveled a path I was considering and you learned and are sharing... Thank you!

I have no questions about what I'm using for this project:

The AC-15 with the Curtis 1238-6501 (550A) controller. Doubt I'll use that many amps, but I want a buffer and room to grow (a little).

I see that the controller is capable of 80v, I wonder if the AC-15 is capable of the same?

I am SO MUCH MORE RELAXED!!!!

I will begin designing etc, leaving room for motor (A larger one, just in case I change my mind), controller etc and batteries (more than I will probably use at 72v, keeping enough room to take it up to 80v-96v if the motor (or future motor), can handle it.

I realize that I could actually start building once all the drawings, plans and model are completed, leaving enough room for more batteries and a larger motor. With the Motorcycle ICE system, I could actually set it up to drive before adding the electric. This will give me ACTUAL weight, handling characteristics and the ability to move the "batteries" (Using weighted boxes following size specs for the cells), around to get the right CG (60% on front wheels, 40% on rear. There will be room under the front hood and along each side just outside of the cabin to achieve this.

THIS, makes MUCH MORE sense to me! I'll have more data, weight handling at different speeds and I can build small sand/lead boxes to duplicate the batteries, install them (as dead weight) and see how it drives before completing battery boxes in their "tuned" position(s) and wiring it all up!

I was actually able to get some "real" work done since Ken's post... went from drawing to building and switched my Pandora play list to something a little more "up".

I'll share drawings here as I create them.

I feel as if I have been "released" to get into the "fun" stuff that I love doing!

OK... back to work! LOL!


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## Jarel Design (Jul 2, 2015)

*Re: First Concept Sketch!*

I just couldn't hold back... I got a "lot" of work done (kind of... Things went well and I could have kept going, But I completed what I wanted to get done today on the prototype and well, Visions kept "invading" my brain! LOL!

There are a LOT of ideas, images of details... This was just a first quick sketch... There will be MANY before I get around to building a model and seeing what it looks like in 3D.

Styling range from this open wheel/floating fender (like this one), to full blown straight across the front, one piece bodies with enclosed wheel wells.

This will at least give you the direction I'm going in:

Cabin/Passenger doors are removable "Gull Wings" (Hinged along the roof line and open upwards protecting the passengers and interior from rain). When removed they create a sort of "T" Top... (Think old Stingray/Corvette). There will be convertible grade fabric covers (Tresa does our fabric for out sailboat with a super heavy duty machine), with side windows (Think collapsible "Jeep" doors"),to bring along when we drive with the top off, (just in case it rains). (They'll be stored behind the seats where there will be a very small cargo area, enough for a 6-Pack cooler, purse, small day packs etc...

The area above the ICE motorcycle area has two doors (One on each side and also Gull Wing). It is a "light cargo" area (heavier items, up front closer to the cabin), jackets etc towards the rear.

The front hood lifts up and is where the batteries go. I'd like them to be as low as possible (with some forward of the front axle for stability and up front,the pack should help keep the CG in the forward 1/3 of the vehicle. 

I'm thinking that once ready, I will proceed building this vehicle without the EV components (I'll make fitting mockups so that I know everything fits), but then, after I drive it on ICE and weigh the front and and rear wheels, I can fill the mock up components (including battery packs), and try different positions for mounting (even driving with them in place to get a better sense of how it handles.

The front grill will have a recessed radiator, small 12v pump running water through a chiller plate under the controller. The small front opening will also provide cooling for battery pack and cabin air intake via controllable vents.

The side scoops will have interior moldings that will direct cooling air over the ICE area.

I'll create a mock-up / ribbed jig out of plywood placing seats, dashboard, front end and motorcycle frame in place measuring everything for the tubular frame location. Simple tubular chrome-molly frame, stripped and widened VW front end. Metal tabs will be welded in place for body attachment, battery box, controller mounting etc placement.

Body will be created by cutting ribs out of Pink foam, like ribs for a boat hull, With the metal mounting plates left at the surface. (The rear sides covering the motorcycle area will be removable (not doors, but screwed in place for service access), cutting the foam as close as possible before shaping/sanding. 

Frames for doors will be built and hinged and rain gutters cut using hot wire cutting tools I created. Headlights and tail lights as well as other items like charging door, fuel cap etc... will be treated with mold release and set in place to create tight fitting receiving area for mounting after fiber glassing. Carbon fiber will be used to stiffen up areas as needed. Hinge areas will also get some Kevlar. Once the parts are removed from the foam/composite skin,the long process of cleaning everything up, fairing etc will happen. After that, most of the foam will be removed leaving a small 1/4" to 1/2" thick foam skin for added strength and sound dampening.

OK... Time to eat...

Hope you enjoy!

Richard

PS: Just re-read this... The Plywood jigs for the tubular frame will be notched to hold tubes in place and marked where joints are to be welded. Once completed, the wood will be REMOVED to expose the bare frame before creating the rigid foam body that will be covered in fiberglass.


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

*Re: First Concept Sketch!*

Just a wee comment
If you are using carbon fiber in a wet layup you are probably not gaining anything,
In a wet layup S Glass is probably stronger for the same weight because it takes more resin to "wet" the carbon fiber
If you are using pre-pregs ignore this comment
A lot of people use carbon fiber and end up with a heavier component 
(Being a Scot I hate wasting the money as well)

I'm looking at using honeycomb boards for my next chassis 
http://www.hexcel.com/products/aerospace/aaircraft-flooring
these are for aircraft but they get used for all sorts of things
You can build your chassis using a fold and glue technique - some F1 cars were made this way


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## Jarel Design (Jul 2, 2015)

Hi Duncan,

You're right!

Lots of people think that CF is the answer for everything. The reality is that CF is the hardest composite fabric to saturate, not wanting to "wet-out" and people end up using more epoxy than needed, ending up in a heavier, weaker lamination. It's also stiffer and harder to bend around curves. And it's not "strong"... CF provides little strength (impact). That's where Kevlar shines... But Kevlar is less stiff than fiberglass, so using the right composite for the right job is where you can get really strong, lightweight structures... Some people lover the look of clear coated CF. I created a vacuum bagged dashboard for a friend for his classic Mini-Cooper. It did nothing structurally, but it looked great when he mounted his brand new gauges etc he ordered from England!

How I intend to use CF, is to use it as stiffeners/ribs:

I designed a tool that allows me to cut channels in foam (See drawing). These will be cut and located in geometric lines as if I were building a tubular frame to support the composite body skin.

The foam is cut, the foam "plug" is removed, a layer of "crow-foot" weave CF is laid in place with the bias of the fabric laid at a 45 degree angle (the CF is stiff and does not like to bend perpendicular to the channel AND, the 45 degree angle of the bias creates an even stronger structure) a fairly narrow strip of CF (allowing it to travel into the channel and lay flat on the surface of the foam only 1/2" wide on both sides) is epoxied in place in the channel. The foam rib (plug), is inserted into the channel and a wider strip of CF is laid onto the outer surface of the foam. Composite fabrics are then layered over that to create the body.

I also mix about 10% of De-Icing liquid (used in aircraft wings) with the epoxy which helps wet the fabric and allows me to use less epoxy in an effort to gain the right fabric to "plastic" (liquid epoxy), ratio.

BTW I NEVER use Polyester resin and my favorite epoxy is WEST... Lots of variables in their formulas and hardeners for working in winter or summer.

Another method I use is vacuum bagging, using Teflon coated breather cloth and wicking mat. The breather cloth goes up against the wet composite lay-up with the wicking mat over that and then the object or area is covered with a special plastic/vinyl sheet, sealed and then vacuumed to about 15" to 20" of mercury. A SLOW curing mixture of epoxy is used for this!) When set, the breather cloth and wicking mat are removed leaving a PERFECT ratio of resin to cloth... SUPER ULTRA light!

Small patches of Kevlar will only be used in areas that receive major stress like attachment points for frame mounting, door hinge mounts, mirror mounting etc... This helps to strengthen the composite body.

Although Pre-Preg can provide some strength, it really comes into it's own element when used in a autoclave. (I use it in lamination on my high performance RC wings in between the foam cores and the outer skin. The fiberglass gives it it's strength or otherwise it would buckle up.

I've been creating composite pieces for decades and love what can be done with it. I created the bodies for the world land speed record trike seen in previous photos on this thread. (Don't know, but you might be able to see the final results of the foam rib method if there's any inside parts of the body showing. 

What I totally lack in understanding the electrical EV aspects of this project, I make up for in the structural composites design and fabrication area. (Laughing at myself here: That's why I couldn't wait to start creating concept sketches of the body! LOLOLOL!) I feel a lot more comfortable in this area... 

And yes! CF is WAY TOO EXPENSIVE to use throughout a body of this size! 

The honeycomb CF sheet (Hexel) you mentioned is great stuff! ULTRA LIGHT! But again, I'm keeping the exotic fabrics to a minimum on this project.

Thanks for watching out for me! 

Richard


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## Jarel Design (Jul 2, 2015)

*Re: Other "skills"*

Hi Duncan,

With the diverse work I do, I've learned a lot of different fabrications skills (mostly in plastics).

Some of them I see using in this project are:

Vacuum forming: I can create all sorts of plastic moldings (I see using this a lot to create interior details, dashboard, instrument housings etc.) I have two machines: 18" X 30" and a 24" X 24"... I had a 24" X 48" machine, but I donated it it to the local high school tech department where I often volunteer. (I needed the space to install a new CNC 3D router (27" X 27" X 7" usable space). (I still haven't installed it!  )

I also create in RenShape a lot (an aerospace modeling plank that is easy to work with, can be cut, drilled, machined, shaped and polished out to a shiny finish if wanted and it DOESN'T shrink, warp or expand! I usually mold these parts in platinum base high temp silicone and then pressure cast them in anything from rigid urethane to rubber and sometimes, aluminum.

I've got a mill and two lathes and just about everything else one would want in a shop.

My number 1 "wish" was that I was a welder!!! I own an oxy/acetylene rig, but I burn holes more than fuse metal together. LOLOL! I've never tried MIG/TIG welding... 

If you had any parts that you wanted fabricated/molded, I could do that... By any chance do you live anywhere near southern Oregon?

Yeah, I should be working on robot creature #4... At least I walked away from the drawing table! LOL!

I just completed working drawings for the last creature and feel much better about creating that guy and I think I should be able to finish #4 early today... If so, I hope to create a few more concept sketches... 

OK... back to work here


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

*Re: Other "skills"*

Hi Richard
Re the oxy/acetylene
Have you tried "Bronze Welding" AKA (but incorrectly) as Brazing?

I made my chassis using this method - it's slower than MIG (and more expensive for the materials) but it gives stronger joints and its much more forgiving

Brazing is a related process using very good joints where the "braze" is sucked into the joint by capillary action,
Bronze welding uses the "bronze" as a filler metal to male a fillet around the joint
A properly "Bronze welded" joint is stronger than a welded joint because you don't get the transition zone around the weld
More importantly (IMHO) a poor Bronze welded joint is a LOT stronger than a poor welded joint 

In the old days sports and racing car chassis were made using bronze welding 

Nowhere near Oregon I'm afraid - I'm in Southland, New Zealand


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## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

My eyes keep falling on the title of this thread. Is the word regerative meant to blend regenerative and geriatric? Kinda catchy, especially if it is meant to be a retirement project...

Depending on what the design is of your chassis, you could blend all kinds of weight reduction materials and concepts. The honeycomb is not exactly exotic, and weighs next to nothing. It may not be the best for the whole chassis, but it could really make sense in some of the larger floor areas and maybe for some battery boxes. Aluminum makes a lot of sense as well, especially if you understand monocoque chassis. It sure is nice to see your ambition on this project, so I hope all goes well. I am typically a bit of a troll when it comes to hybrids, but it is a lot different with somebody with your ambition and background.


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## Jarel Design (Jul 2, 2015)

Duncan:

NEW ZEALAND!?!?!?!? 

Oh well, was hoping you were closer... Tresa and I have New Zealand on our radar for future travel plans (along with Costa Rica), although this vehicle is going to suck up a lot of the funds (Tresa's fine with it... She's choosing interior colors! LOL!


So brazing is stronger than welding?!?!?!? I used to be into bicycles big time and I do know hat all of those frames (Way back when), were brazed... I can braze! I've done it before... I'm going to have to research on brazing now! LOL! I believe it's done at a much lower temperature than gas welding... I just thought that arc welding was stronger and didn't fatigue the metal as much as the heat from gas welding (Of course "my version of gas welding took up a lot of time filling up holes I burnt through the metal! LOLOL!

Thanks for the tip! I "think" I might be able to do that! Then I could just have those pipes that need to be bent, done by someone with a pipe bender and build the whole thing here! That would be exciting and (admittedly), raise my pride in having built the whole thing from the ground up!  I think it would also allow me to control the frame building, taking my time to refit things like seats, motorcycle frame, front end, roof lines etc....

Evemetro:

Thanks for the suggestion! (For some reason, I hadn't even thought of that.... The cabin floor pan, the rear cargo area, the battery box.... These and more would indeed be stronger and so much lighter... And, it's the material of "my people"! 

I have to admit that I I took a break from "work" and called up HPEVS and spoke with Bill about the AC-15 motor and Curtis 1238-6501 controller. The specs on the controller state 80v, but the "kit" is sold as a 72v system. 

I wanted to know if the motor could handle 80v. He told me that the entire system could easily handle 96v with an absolute NEVER TO EXCEED voltage of 105v. I was trying to learn if I could add a "few more cells" to make sure that "mid-time" voltage drop would still be at 72v+... 

He asked about what I was building, performance parameters etc... (He LOVED the idea of a motorcycle powered Hybrid and how I was planning to charge the batteries while still being directly connected for EV motor use...) 

THANKS GUYS! He said the AC motor could run on forever and that this kit was perfect for what I was building. After telling him I was "hoping" for a 35mph - 45mph top speed (Estimated weight with batteries: 1,000lbs... I think it will be lighter) and a range of 30 to 40 miles... He said I way underestimated what this motor/controller system would do and that I would be surprised at the performance (even on only 72v max!), Now, I'm thinking of upping the voltage (Depends on room for batteries and their added weight...) He said my top speed and range would increase dramatically although the torque would probably be the same.... I was SO EXCITED!!!! Even to just be in the "ballpark" of my performance goals would have made me super happy!)


Retirement project???? I hope to never retire! I LOVE making stuff for clients and being able to make my own "stuff"... It's what I was born to do and can never get enough!

I'm laughing at your application of the word "regenerative" with regards to geriatric....~!!! I'm 61, have a mind of a very experienced and super curious younger adult and although my mind thinks I'm still a teenager when I do physical labor around here, my body just laughs it's head off as I "try" to get out of bed each morning. !!! (Just shared this one with Tresa: "Does this mean that when we step into it we're 61, and after a drive, we'll step out and be 18?!? LOL!

Thanks for "accepting" that I'm determined to build a hybrid... I know there are a lot of purists on this site and I TOTALLY respect them!!!! (Envy actually), BUT, I KNOW what our driving habits are when it comes to recreational driving (going for long country drives without a set destination and usually always wanting to go a little further. Pure EV just wouldn't work for us... On top of that, with the price of fuel, well... "recreational" driving just takes on a different light (even with 25mpg in the smaller car)... And I think this vehicle will replace most of our local driving using the smaller car.

The "ambition" you see here is the revival of a 47+ year old dream to build an "electric car"... Never wanted to buy one... My life, who I am and my passion has always been about building one!

I just REALLY want to build this vehicle... A phrase I learned a long time ago: What are you willing to do today to get what you want tomorrow? Life is just way too short... I know this is going to cost a lot more than I had ever thought, but I know that what I am creating will last longer than I will and the joy???? "Priceless"! 

When I was in high school, I wanted to build a flying machine... The first one crashed on take off, pulling it behind a small utility vehicle on the high school field... In front of a very large crowd (600+ fellow students and teachers), I was laughed at ever since...

The second one, I was MUCH more conservative and built a weight shift rogollo hang glider... like everyone else. It "flew", but only glided down the hill... I wanted something I could "soar" in... specifically, using the updrafts blowing on a hill, staying within that band of lift and traveling along the ridge "indefinitely" as long as the wind was blowing...

I did it! 37' wingspan, under 100lbs, three axis cable control... Extremely controllable... To save money, I used women's coat liner for the fabric that covered the wings.... When I stepped up to the edge of steep hills, cliffs, I was usually airborne before I stepped off and GAINED altitude instead of just gliding down to the bottom. (So glad I had the sense (or fear), to wear a helmet! LOL! (Photo is of the first flight.)

So this is the energy, drive, "ambition" I think you see in my efforts... I RARELY give up! I think you might see that as I have tried so hard to understand the whole AC/DC, voltage, amps performance stuff... A realm that has always mystified me! I would just go back on line and keep reading.... BTW: I think I've now read EVERY THREAD in EVERY FORUM on this site! (I've found other EV sights but they just don't compare to "here"... So "here", is now where I call "home"!

Thank you!

Richard


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## Moltenmetal (Mar 20, 2014)

Suggest you consider the 1234 or 1236 controller as a cheaper match to your AC15 motor. The 1238 is what is powering my AC50 in my much larger and heavier car...Not saying you can't use the 1238, but you might be able to save a few bucks if you compromise on the current a bit.

Brazing is typically what people call it Duncan, whether the alloy is a bronze, silver, copper or nickel base. And you're right that brazed strength can be greater than welded when you're working with alloys like Cr-Mo in particular, as welding that stuff requires post weld heat treatment to develop max strength and to get rid of local embrittlement. 

Aluminum is fine but pretty weak when welded. You lose half or more of the strength of the structural tempered grades when you get out the TIG torch. Some of those grades are north of 45 ksi as tempered versus the annealed strength of only 15-20 ksi, which is why you see a lot of riveting in aluminum construction still.

A guy like you needs to get a little MIG machine and have a go- wonderful tool and way easier to use than oxy-acetylene torch welding. You should still braze your Cr-Mo tube if you go with that material.

Very jealous of your shop! Btw what do you mould aluminum in? Surely not in the silicone moulds? I bought some Petrobond sand and do castings in bronze and aluminum, or did before this car ate my shop!


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## frodus (Apr 12, 2008)

Pm'd you on the Ac15 combo. I have one for sale that would be a good fit.


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## Jarel Design (Jul 2, 2015)

Hello!

Well, Now I'm studying metallurgy! (Not my forte, being the son of a cabinet maker! LOL!)

Sort of like someone wanting to build a wood sailboat mast and choosing Oak because they think it's "strong"... Totally wrong choice! Parallel grain Sitca Spruce is much stiffer, lighter etc...

Well that's how I stand now with metal tubing for the frame for this project! Which one? how to weld/braze?

Brazing sure looks a LOT more appealing to me since I've had "some" (very little) experience, but I have dabble with it enough to know that if it can be used, then I stand a much better chance of success than with welding..

I mentioned "chromoly" because that's what I "thought" was the "right choice. Now I'm also learning about "mild steel".

I was amazed at how strong brazing can be on Chromoly! Lower heat, less brittle etc.... No need for tempering joints after brazing, little brittleness created by the lower heat used for brazing And it looks easy! Also learned that it can easily be accomplished using the oxy/acetylene set I have.

Whew! This never ends, does it?

I PM'd the gracious offers for components, but I'm not there yet...

I hadn't looked at the 1234 or 1236 controllers yet but will do so! Thanks for the suggestions! Still have to complete my client prototypes I didn't get #4 done yesterday, opting to go on line and learn more about chromely brazing!) 

(I didn't even get to sketch any more concepts! )

I'm going to my first EV club meeting tonight and looking forward to see what that is about... Hoping for many DIY members!

So far, I've learned a little about the different brazing rods, temp control, good vs bad brazed joints.... It seems within my reach to do here, creating jigs/patterns for those parts that need to be bent. Excited enough to research and learn more. Mostly about the difference between mild steel and chromeoly and the different brazing rods for strength.

Also focusing some attention on attaching motorcycle frame to main frame designs and approaches. I'll need to get close up ciews of the CB500 frame to see how I want to do it. I know I'll keep the fork tube intact and incorporate that into the main frame, but uncertain how to approach connecting the bottom of the bike frame to the main EV frame.

OK... back to work here. I also have a new client meeting here at 2PM (Bio-medical prototype... I have no idea what they want from me... I "think" they want me to design and fabricate a housing for an existing electrical prototype they developed. This will be my first "local client"... Most of my clients are based in LA, NY, SF and Seattle.

OK... Hate to leave here, but I REALLY need to get this 4th robot completed and finish #5 (the last), so I can focus on EVs!!! 

Richard


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## aeroscott (Jan 5, 2008)

Brazed frames have the advantages you spoke of , but need larger surface area because of lower strength. Bike frames use forged lugs/sockets that are then brazed.
Gas welding is fun and easy, start with a very small tip. It's very easy to control unless you use a large tip.
Many experimental/ home built aircraft are gas welded on 4130


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## Jarel Design (Jul 2, 2015)

I need to shut off my incoming mail audio alarm in the studio! LOL!

When you say "larger area", do you mean larger diameter tubing to create the larger surface to surface contact area?

I'm VERY familiar with lugs used in bicycle fabrication yielding great strength through the lugs, but I'm not going to be able to do that with this project.

When you say "Gas welding" do you mean actual welding where the two pieces of tubing are fused together (higher temps than brazing)?

I have a victor welding set with a large collection of tips and cutters.

I really haven't had that much experience welding or brazing... Usually only tacking part together to have a friend complete the weld.

I'm concerned with my skill level (lack there of) and damaging the tubing using high temps welding... The lower temps used for brazing has an appeal for me "thinking" that the process is more forgiving and that I might have a better chance at brazing than welding...?

Again, I have to consider myself new to this. I do not want to risk creating a frame that cracks at the joints while driving!!! 

I see myself getting some 4130 tubing and practicing (both methods?) after more research, to see where I am and what skills I can develop.

I've been watching YouTube tutorials on brazing and have learned a lot so far.

THANKS!

Richard


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

Hi Richard
My tuppence worth

I used mild steel - because it's "soft" it fails progressively and it's more forgiving
A mild steel chassis for a Locost - Lotus 7 type car will only weigh about 60Kg

Brazing
Very good for the tube joints

I riveted and brazed 1mm thick steel for the floor and bulkheads - if doing again would glue and rivet (and use thinner steel or aluminium)

Brazing is slow and expensive - but very strong and looks good

Part of the reason that I used brazing was that I had to get my car through "certification" and the cert process asks about your training in welding
My "training" consisted of welding parts together on the other side of the world twenty years earlier
The naked welds are inspected by your "certifier" (you have to leave them unpainted until he says OK)
My "naked welds" were not that pretty (I would have needed a bit of practice to get my eye back in)
So I Bronze welded - and started off by making a couple of joints and "destructively tested" (smashed apart with a big hammer) them


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## Jarel Design (Jul 2, 2015)

Duncan,

Thanks for your "tuppence"! (Actually, instead of "tuppences" and 2 cents worth, I'm receiving "Priceless" information form you guys!

I did some more research (Lunch break!!!  ... "normally" don't take them but now I use them as my excuse to get back on line and study! LOL!)

I'm considering mild steel for the forgiveness of id during welding/brazing heating and less concern about heating the tubing to the point of creating brittle joints... (I really don't want to send the frame out to have it "properly cooled beyond what I can do here (learning about SLOW cooling).

One of the BEST things I learned on line was a guy who was building an airplane frame using the 4130 and he went to a local junior/community college and took a class! I can do that!  I'm thinking I'll talk to the instructor before signing up and tell him what I'm doing and what I want to learn and hopefully, he can guide me to a class that will be applicable (I'm not really interested in learning "all" about welding at this point, I just want to be able to build my frame and be able to trust it... with my life!

I also found out more about some of the books that have come up on my radar... 

One that keeps getting repeatedly praised is Carroll Smith's "Prepare To Win"... He apparently covers tubular race car frame design and covers different metals, welding and brazing...

Geeze! I remember when I first came here and posted my first "regenerative" question! LOL! This project has grown and grown and now, is encompassing the "likely hood" that I may actually be fabricating this vehicle from the frame up! LOL! (Deep down inside, I've known that I wanted to, but didn't think it was within my skill levels based on my "expertise" melting holes in most of the welding I've done in the past! LOL!


Did you find the mild steel easier to braze than 4130? What rod/flux did you use. Did you strength test the joints to failure (Practice joints of course)?

Can you share any more about mild steel vs 4130? How easy to cut, grind/sand female joints to be butted up against other frame components? How accurate were you joints? (I've "heard" anything from 1/16" gaps to paper thin...)

OK... My client meeting never happened this afternoon (actually fine with that but it would have been nice if he called... Maybe I got the date/time wrong? LOL!)

This 4th robot turned out to be super difficult to get working right... dealing with .002" tolerances that I wasn't expecting... I thought I gave a lot more clearance than needed where I'm experiencing difficulties... Almost there though... Could be another hour and it should be done.... So that I can start on the last, #5 creature.

OK... back to work.

Thank you again for all your help! 
(And this included EVERYONE who has chimed in...!)

At first I thought I was burdening you guys with my questions not knowing anything (thinking I had already done my homework (HA!)... Now I'm realizing how much I enjoy and learn from "real life" experiences of builders and can see that as I progress to completion, there's going to be a LOT of information that can help others and inspire those that don't think they can do it for lack of knowledge... I think when I have a model (frame, components and body design established, I may start an actual "Build thread" and reference this one as my "real starting point"...

I am so looking forward to this project taking form! (And yes, even though I really don't know what I'm getting into, I really do know that it will be more than I bargained for and that my attitude will be: Awe, what's "one more detail?" 

I can still hear when I get email notifications for the thread and of course< I will be "obliged" to come visit.... Lol! But I'll report back (tonight or tomorrow morning) on how the meeting went.... Got an agenda and I will fall into "new members" and "share your new project"! Cool! Hoping members will come up to me and offer advice (good advice!) lol! I['m excited! Watching the clock and counting the hours!

Later,

Richard


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

Hi Richard
With my limited experience I have not noticed any difference in difficulty brazing different alloys 
Cleanliness and orientation seem to make the most difference
With your relatively small chassis rotating it to get the best angle as you braze all of the way around should be easy

Your welding supplier will have the right flux and filler rods,

Making joints - I used square section tubing - easier to make a joint
I bought myself a cheap power hacksaw - it does not cut significantly faster than I do manually but it does cut more squarely (or whatever angle I set)

I have used round tubing in the past, then I used a hole saw the correct diameter set up in my bench drill to cut the tube and "fish mouth" it to match the other tube
Paper wrapped around the tube and used to mark where to cut was also useful
Remembering the fun I had doing that - I much prefer square section tubing it is so much easier to attach other things like bodywork to


I think I remember the Carrol book
That is the one when he said (roughly)
that a welded chrome molly frame had to be heat treated after welding - and if somebody told you that he could weld it without needing the heat treatment you should run away!

I'm not a very neat worker - some of my joints had gaps - probably up to the 1/16th you mention
They would have been better with smaller gaps!
But with "bronze welding" you encapsulate the join so I don't think I lost any strength

Proper "brazing" uses very close fitting joins and a "filler metal" that sucks itself into the join

I'm not sure if the more viscous "filler metal" used in bronze welding will do that so it may be possible to have "too good" a join and lose a little strength


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## samwichse (Jan 28, 2012)

This topic keeps bringing me back to the raht racer... it seems almost identical in specs to what you're building... 20 kw motor, 9 kwh of batteries, to speed around 70 mph, generous helping of CF.

Maybe you can get a bit of inspiration from it?
http://www.rahtmobile.com


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## aeroscott (Jan 5, 2008)

Jarel Design said:


> I need to shut off my incoming mail audio alarm in the studio! LOL!
> 
> When you say "larger area", do you mean larger diameter tubing to create the larger surface to surface contact area?
> 
> ...


 Brazed metal per volume is weaker then steel , makes a larger harder to control pool of molten metal, the steel will chill as you move along making it much better to control .Low Alloy(4130) verses low strength(A36) handle about the same. No free lunch stronger is brittle weaker is ductile. NASCAR uses soft steel around the driver.Start with your smallest tip , coat hanger wire, mild steel tubing from junk pile. if you find you have to move to fast or faster then you can think you have to much heat.The fuel/ox charts are meant to sell gas so try running a little less.


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## Jarel Design (Jul 2, 2015)

*Re: Where do I start??? So much to share!!!*

Hi Guys,

Let's start with replies:

Samwichse:
VERY inspirational! I bookmarked the page. Other that the single seat configuration, there was a lot in the photo gallery I found inspirational!
Thanks!

Aeroscott:
Thanks for the tips! I'll share later in this post, but I have decided to take a welding/brazing class at the local junior college... Can't beat hands on teaching. I plan to speak with the instructor first to tell him what I plan to do (welding vs brazing) and see what class he suggests. (I've got a full blown Victor Ox-Acetylne system that is just collecting dust!

Frodus & Moltenmetal:
I PM'd you both. Thanks! I looked into the 1234 and 1236 controllers. Both are limited in Peak amps: (350A) I don't know yet, if I will ever exceed that, but I would feel "safer" having a margin of error by having the Peak at 550A with the 1238-6501 Controller... Still more to learn though!

Last night's meeting:
I have met "My People"! I was expecting a bunch of Prius owners but there was a HEALTHY crowd of conversion and scratch builders, most of them accomplished electro-mechanical engineers! Even the 3 Prius owners... Of them, two are rebuilding their systems adding more batteries, and working on extending their range! I came home even more buzzed than before I went!

I brought up the use of a BMS and got mixed opinions...I need to do more research on their function and capabilities. Where I am now, I "Think" that manually, balancing cell by cell as a scheduled maintenance task, I can do a better job? Am I missing something? Are there other functions the BMS serves that I'm not aware of? I'm "assuming" I can program the controller to shut down at set high and low voltage of the "pack" to protect the batteries. If I routinely check the individual cells and balance each one with my smaller digital/programmable charger (6A max, charge and discharge), wouldn't I be taking better care of my battery pack and their individual cells? (I've researched the small cell top monitors/ controllers and so far they seem like the wrong way to go.)

Tresa ordered two of the Carroll Smith books on race vehicle design and fabrication which is supposed to cover geometry, metallurgy, welding/brazing, attachments, aerodynamics etc... If you don't find me here as much, know that my nose is "glued" to the pages! LOL!

Construction Strategy:
Once I get a sense of frame design, I will begin drawing out the frame, VW front end (modified to be wider) and the motorcycle frame. Tresa shared that there are "Barbie" dolls that are anatomically proportioned to represent "real" people as opposed to the long legs, long torso versions. Once I find them, I'll layout drawings based on scaling the dolls to our heights (I'm 5'10"). Once I get those measurements, I can scale the motorcycle frame/engine and wheel to fit that scale. Then off to the hobby store to see if I can find some RC car wheels that fit the scale diameter of the front wheels. (This will helps speed up the model building of the frame.)

Once I get the frame layed out, I can begin sculpting the body and create a vacuum form mold to fabricate a removable body.

Meanwhile, I'll be cleaning up the shop, completing summer projects... (Did I share that besides everything else we're doing here, Tresa and I teach "sustainable living"?! We raise over 75% of all our food on a city lot! THis includes chickens, Rabbits, quail, tilapia (in aquaponic systems) and carbon footprint reduction! Last summer I designed and built a 2-stage evaporative cooler! It is still working strong with as much as a 30 degree drop in temperature! Our central air broke down and we tried a 15,000 watt air conditioner which didn't cut it for our 1550 sqft house. The one I built operates on only 250 watts (two fans and a pump) and most of the time we have to turn it down because it gets so cold in here! 

This summer/fall, I'm building 2 solar air heaters (using soda pop cans). I'll be channeling the heated air into a soon to be constructed window seat that will have ducting running through it, then filled with pottery clay in a slury. This window seat will then have a separate ducting system that channels air from the floor area, through the box and back out. The solar heaters will have a thermo-switch to shut down when it gets below 85 degrees. After that, the heat retained in the box will continue to warm the house during the night.

Whew!

OK, back to my trike:

I will be building the trike complete with everything (EXCEPT the EV drive system) first. I will create dummy shapes to replicate the components, controller, battery pack, motor and designing and building around them within the frame. This will give me a chance to drive the vehicle first and wight each dummy component to shift them around to test for balance, handling characteristics. Once I get an idea as to performance and weight, I'll be much better prepared to order the right components! Makes sense?

My deadline goal:
This fall, clean out shop build a flat working table and take a welding class.

Winter/spring: Build the frame and install everything to drive it legally on the street (Open frame, but with lights, horn, everything to be able to get it certified and licensed for street use.

Summer:Take a break, drive it around and test/inspect to make sure everything is staying together, check fuel consumption and get a better idea as to handling (Probably add the weighted dummy components to check the same.

Fall/Winter: Back inside the shop and fabricate the body to completion. Panels will be removable to gain access to the interior...

From there: Continue with all the goodies: Windshield wiper, interior sculpting, instrumentation, cooling ducting for the ICE, controller and batteries as well as create an interior cabin heating system and one as well for the batteries for winter driving.

Whew! I think that does it... (First time I ever wrote this "action plan"... seems doable. Some might get done faster, I'm sure some may take longer! LOL! (usually the case as unexpected conflicting details arise... I'm used to that with my prototype design work.)

Oh... And as for the meeting yesterday? It's TODAY!!! LOL! (Tresa laughed her head off when she pointed out my calendar to me!) I have become SO consumed with this project!!! Instead of taking the freeway home, I drove home via a parallel hwy. I drove like I was in my EV!!!! Checked for speeds, anticipating traffic light changes for longer regen, was easy on the gas pedal to time acceleration as if I was trying to keep my amps down... Just imagining being in this project Trike! I can "taste it"!!!!

OK... I did manage to complete the 4th robotic creature before my EV club meeting... Turned out phenomenal! I sure wish I could share these with you, but I take my confidentiality/non-disclosure agreements very seriously...)

I think that's all for now....

It's 11:15, my meeting is at 2 and I have to go kill some more gophers! They've begun attacking Tresa's plants! (another project): We've tried every imaginable method to get rid of these guys, traps, poison, flooding their holes, juicy fruit gum... Nothing worked... So... I designed a gopher-gasser: We have an 8hp chipper/shredder with a controllable choke. I put together copper pipe and flexible steel exhaust tubing to hook up to the muffler. I place the nozzle in the gopher hole and turn it on with just enough choke so the exhaust is really smokey. It ran for quite a while until back pressure from the gopher trying to seal up it's burroughs stopped the engine. 7 more marked holes to go!!! LOL!

OK guys, I'm off...

This project is really beginning to take shape...

Thanks again for all your support and help! 

Richard


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## Moltenmetal (Mar 20, 2014)

By torch welding, I meant welding using the oxyacetylene torch instead of a TIG torch, using steel wire as the filler metal to weld steel. I find this impossibly difficult, though others manage very well.

MIG welding in comparison is dead easy- on mild steel. Unlike brazing, you can tack the work to aid assembly, and fit up can be much less precise. And stronger doesn't matter as long as adequately strong is possible. Especially if you can get someone to show you the basics of machine setup etc., hard wire MIG (meaning gas shielded rather than flux core wire) creates good solid welds even with very amateur technique. For a beginner wanting to do a serious project I think it's the best bet. But brazing works well too- just takes far more careful joint design, careful cleaning and more jigging to hold joints together while completing the braze.

Didn't get a PM- and don't know any more about the smaller controllers than can be gleaned from the spec sheets. Just doubt you need 500 or 650 A to be satisfied with your trike's EV performance.


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## Jarel Design (Jul 2, 2015)

Moltenmetal:

Sorry you didn't receive my PM (Frodus: Did you receive my PM?) Still "new here and I may have pressed a wrong button, although I know I've done it right before. 

I'm still planning on investigating the two controllers you mentioned (I just thought having a controller capable of handling more amps would keep it safe while planning to stay under that amperage: That's what I do with my aircraft controllers, using higher amp capacity so that "If" I ever went over motor or battery amperage use, the controller was not the weak link in the system... Again, I have SO much more to learn!

Just finished reading a thread "BMS or not to BMS"... (70 pages!!!) "Nasty" thread with a lot of hostility among those arguing both sides... Still learned some and realize my choice not to use one might be a mistake... again, still a lot to learn. Anyone have long term experience with a BMS system that has worked for them on 72v to 96v? I've looked into the Elithion and Manzanita (Expensive!) Again, I still have LOTS to research and learn about this aspect of the EV system. I "was" hoping that the controller would take care of most of my BMS needs when accompanied by disciplined and frequent manual individual cell inspection and balancing each cell individually and possible an individual cell condition display on the dash.

Did some research into using a VW bug front end for the suspension and steering. I did not realize there were torsion bars going through the horizontal tubes! (Much more work than I thought, but in reality I still don't know how much work!) I found a VW Bug on Craigslist (salvage, but no frame damage) for $350!!! CHEAP! I figured I could salvage the entire front end up to the steering column including brakes and brake pedal/maser cylinder... But... still not ready. I think there's a place here in town that works on older VW bugs as they always have bugs outside for sale. I'll check with them about widening the front end and possible parts available...

The real thing that's going on here is mental and time overload!
The meeting yesterday may have yielded a $13,000 prototype project! (Yeah!!!  Another "thing" to add to my list!  ) But... is still great because I mentally started adding up all the components, motorcycle, VW front end, frame etc... and I'm pretty sure this may end up being a $10,000 project! (Sticker shock)... Still, if I'm going to do this, I want to do it right! Holding off on purchases may yield cheaper purchase opportunities down the road... Time will tell.

Moltenmetal: Your description of "gas shielded" MIG welding sounds perfect for my lack of skills! I like the idea of not having to worry as much about tight fitting joints, being able to tack them in place before proceeding with the weld and that even an amateur could build a strong frame... (That would most certainly be me! LOL!)

I'm curious though... I don't know a thing about gas shielding vs flux... I'm imagining a much more expensive machine?

In the BMS thread I read, the term "over-spinning" the motor was mentioned without detail which brought up a question for me: While under ICE power, using the motor to charge batteries, could I "over-spin" the motor? (I don't even know what that means, but I can imagine (and only bad things!). I don't even know if that applies to an AC motor.

I didn't realize the role a BMS would serve while charging! Really looking into it more as I see that I will somehow need to control the rate and extent of charge while regeneration under ICE power. Also wanting to not go 100% on the charge. I REALLY like the idea of never going under 30% discharge, not going over the C rating and now, not seeking a 100% charge to lengthen longevity of the battery pack. Considering I'm designing a Hybrid, I think this battery care strategy fits the design.

God! My brain is SO FULL!!! The other tasks and projects waiting to be done around me is also tugging on me... Lots to get done... (More than I've shared... One is that I still have to build our solar air heating system for the house before the end of Fall... 

I'm now creating lists of all the stuff I need to research for this project so I'm a little less stressed out: from controller choice (Moltenmetal), to welding, obtaining a salvaged VW bug (Now I've learned that they made different front ends through several years... I have to find out the pros and cons of each design), frame design, attaching the motorcycle frame to the main frame, Regenerative braking combined somehow with wheel braking, BMS, EV displays (I'd really like a screen type that has most if not all information on display at once... (I think those can be rather pricey!) Also looking into some of the individual cell condition monitors/displays... I know I may be "overkill" on some or most of this stuff, which is why I need to pace myself and create a fairly hard line schedule, or at least what order to work on what... 

After reading the books on frame design, I think I'll begin laying out the frame, creating scale drawings that begin with Barbie/GI-Joe dolls that I can use in the model, build a scale model of the frame and design a body around that. (These are tasks I can do while continuing to research the other things... I think that once I determine the width I'd like the VW front end, I can then research what is available off the shelf or obtain a salvaged bug, strip off the components and either find a change out torsion bar or find out how or who can do it for me.

Whew! LOTS going on with this project as it becomes more real!

The books Tresa ordered for me are due to arrive tomorrow so I NEED to get as much done as possible on this last robot creature. I figured out one of the mechanical challenges yesterday switching strategy from a regular gearing system to a rack and pinion gearing system... One more mechanical challenge to figure out and I can start building. (All five NEED to arrive in New York on Tuesday!!!)

Tresa's out this morning so it's my turn to take care of the animals: Chickens, Rabbits, Quail, Tilapia... Yesterday, I spent two hours killing gophers (I hope!), with a new addition to our 'farming tools" I created this past spring. "Farm life" (even on a city lot), takes up SO MUCH TIME!

Attached are some photos of our "Gopher-nator"... Connected removable copper pipe and flexible auto exhaust tubing to the muffler on our wood chipper. Ran it with half choke to get a more poisonous gas... The paper cups in the ground are gopher holes Tresa marked out. I ran the chipper until back pressure stopped the engine, sealed up the hole and placed the nozzle into the next hole, sealing them up as I went along. She has so many plants that are yielding some great produce and we don't want to lose them!

OK... back to "work"... I want some "free time" (HA!) to start reading the new books when they come in tomorrow...

That's it for now! (I want more time!!!  )

Richard


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## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

I will throw in my 2 cents on the bms, since I am probably the guy on this forum who is the most infatuated with them. I have equipped all of my conversions with the Orion BMS, and in my latest conversion, I have gone all out and have integrated it with my HPEVS AC35 kit. With the Orion and the controller linked, the controller will cut back the throttle as needed to insure that no cell ever drops below whatever voltage I have specified. I can drive the car without having to worry about hurting a battery. I can try to run the pack into the ground, but the car will lose power like a flashlight and slow to a stop, all without allowing any voltages to drop under whatever voltage I have programmed in. I can also stop from overcharging when I introduce too much regen going down a steep grade on a full pack. The regular charging mode is fantastic as well. There is much debate about having a BMS or not, but my personal opinion is that the debate is moot if the BMS safely maximizes the use of whichever cell has the lowest capacity. In the old days, people used to worry about hurting the lowest cell or cells near the end of a discharge cycle, but this was before a bms could babysit the lowest cell for you while you drive. To me, the Orion is an essential component for an EV, especially if you are running an HPEVS combo. Just my 2 cents.


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## Jarel Design (Jul 2, 2015)

Thank you Evmetro!

Exactly the kind of reply I was hoping for.

I looked up the Orion line of BMS and bookmarked it after a very brief look-see... I liked what I read, saw that they had different sizes to match number of cells/voltage and their features, but I really can't afford the time to research the way I was doing prior to my work crunch. 

As most of what I'm finding on line, I bookmark the info in my EV Trike folder for future thorough exploration.

OK... "breakfast" was this excuse to com here. LOL!

Back to work.

Best,
Richard

And "2-cents" are way more valuable to me than that!


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## Jarel Design (Jul 2, 2015)

Just figured out the last mechanical on this little robot... Pretty sure it will work! Cut the parts and beginning fabrication... I could be done by tomorrow!


I took the opportunity to look up welding classes at our local junior college. Here's what I found:

DescriptionIntroduces basic theory of oxy/fuel cutting/welding, shielded metal arc welding, and gas metal arc welding with emphasis on safety. Includes basic skill development in preparation of metal, welding, and cutting.This sounds PERFECT for me! I get to try different welding methods and I'm sure I can get direction I need to be "approved" before being accepted into the class. I'd be surprised (with my background and experience), if I wasn't), When I speak to the instructor I'll ask him about what I'm seeking regarding what I'll learn in class and my application to this vehicle!


This really sounds perfect for me... limited experience but some and a heavy understanding of mechanical and structural engineering... Besides, I'll read everything he suggests... I'm such an eager student! LOL!


OK... I'd love to complete this project tonight or tomorrow morning so when my books arrive tomorrow, I can "indulge"... What I've designed on this last client project is of course "theoretical with a few mock ups of the components... While I LOVE "theoretical engineering" (Because "theoretically, EVERYTHING WORKS!), the proof of the pudding is actually getting it all together and having it work in the "real world"!


OK... back to work!


Richard


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## Jarel Design (Jul 2, 2015)

*Re: Sending PMs: Please help?*

EV metro:

I just went you a PM and checked to see if it went out (I've received several PM's letting me know that they didn't receive my reply!!! 

ANYONE: What am I doing wrong? I pressed the "reply" button (I think), then pressed "send message"...

When I went to look at my sent messages, it said Zero! (I know I've sent at least a half dozen PMs...

Thanks!

And if you didn't receive an expected reply, please know that it was not my intent... As I've shared before:

I'm still learning! (Apparently I have a lot more to learn! LOL)

Richard


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## Moltenmetal (Mar 20, 2014)

I used the miniBMS, which has very basic functions and is reasonably inexpensive. It acts as an alarm trip module on each cell, giving a high or low voltage alarm that you can choose what to do with. HV on any cell trips my charger, and LV sounds an audible alarm under the dash. Nothing fancier is required- though the Orion's features are interesting they're not really essential. But a basic BMS is cheap insurance on expensive cells. Worth the expense to avoid the worry.

Almost any GMAW MIG welder will accept a shield gas feed. You need a bottle and regulator/flow meter, which costs a bit, but the wire is cheaper and the welds, when done indoors of course, are much cleaner.


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

*Re: Sending PMs: Please help?*

Hi Richard
Why a VW front end?
I would be looking for a twin wishbone front end - Miata?

Most of these use a front subframe with all of the suspension and rack mounting points built in

I'm using a Subaru Legacy
The trouble is it's a strut design so the body shape at the front is more awkward - may not be with your machine

If front struts are OK then the sky is the limit - almost all modern cars can be used
Don't worry about front wheel drive simply saw the CV joints off


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## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

When I bought my first Orion for my first conversion, I was a bit skeptical about the price and need for such a component, but I would pay the price right now just for the ability to see the integrity of each and every HV connection real time, all the time right on my dash. I have scrutinized the integrity of HV connections with it, and am absolutely amazed at how easy it is to make a less than perfect connection or have some resistance develop over time. Without being able to have a gauge for the resistance delta for all of my batteries, I would feel as naked as if I did not have an SOC or DOD gauge. If you only view the Orion as a BMS, the extra cost won't make any sense, but the Orion is a lot more than just a bms. Having the car run out of juice like a flashlight until it stops, without hurting a battery, is insurance that is worth the money by itself as well. If I was building a hybrid, I would be really interested in the hybrid software that it comes with...


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## Jarel Design (Jul 2, 2015)

Hi Guys!

Working like a madman here... 5PM Lunch Break? 

Got the first mechanism built, just needs adjustment and a return spring. If I can get the second mechanism working (Just to prove-out that it won't conflict with the first and has enough power to move the arms, then I'll be able to relax... Just to get past the critical point where I know nothing else will go wrong. (So much can go wrong at the last minute just because of a .001" difference in tolerance!) I usually do at least 3 tests at first of a mechanical prototype. The first is a fluke, the second is luck and the third success is good. LEAVE IT ALONE!!! LOL!

Moltenmetal: 
Is the miniBMS a brand? or a type? I'd like to research as many options as possible before committing (still a long way down that road.)

I actually shopped on line (for just a few minutes) for MIG welders. I saw there was a difference between those that accepted gas and those that didn't... Something tells me that I need to decide on the tubing and how thick before knowing how many amps the welder should be... I'm REALLY looking forward to the welding class in September. I'll also ask him if buying a used one is worth it. (What's a GMAW welder?) (From reading the class description and how many hours it is, I'm hoping to learn how to use the oxy/acetylene system I have if only to save a little money, but I'm TOTALLY open and will remain so until after the welding class.)

Duncan:
HA!!!! The Miata front end was my first choice!!!

The reason I'm seriously considering the VW front end is that there are torsion spring sets available to insert into the modified (cut and weld with extension), tubes to facilitate widening the wheel track stance and still have it easily attached to a tubular frame. Something I KNOW, is that I want as wide a stance as possible (within reason), for stability, cornering and sudden (emergency/knee jerk reaction avoiding maneuvers), as well as a little longer wheelbase. Also, old (salvage) VWs are widely available and cheap as are used and high performance parts (new and used). They're also light! 

EVmetro:
I LIKE the Orion!!!! I gasped at the price until I realized I was looking at the higher voltage mode (I was in a "wrok" rush. Even if I go with 96v, the price is still just over $800... (I've already blown any pre-concieved idea as to what the price tag for this vehicle is going to be! LOL). I'm thinking a BMS system like the Orion is worth the extra $$.

What I REALLY like were all the accessories and options ESPECIALLY the Hybrid software!!! (Again, I only BRIEFLY looked at the Orion page... work has been moving along well today after some setbacks and I really want to get this done so I can relax and spend some time with the books coming in tomorrow.) I'm also a "visual" guy... Even if it costs more, I REALLY want dashboard monitoring screens/gauges... The easier to see, the better (It's just who I am)... I like the idea of being able to glance up and get a visual on real-time, individual cell condition and MORE!!!

OK... daylight's burning!

Back to work here.

Richard


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## Jarel Design (Jul 2, 2015)

PS: can anyone tell me why my PM's are not being received or show up on my notices page?

I'm sure it's something I'm not doing right.

Thanks!

Richard


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

VW front suspension
My first though was - that's awful - then I thought again and looked at the images
My second thought is that's bloody terrible!

I would go
Twin wishbone
or Front strut design

And you need a rack and pinion - those old steering mechanisms feel terrible

How smooth are the roads out where you are?
If they are nice you could go for a front beam axle - absolutely great in cornering braking and acceleration - just not so good with single wheel bumps

In some ways I like the torsion bar suspension - not sure if you will be able to get the spring rate low enough


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## Moltenmetal (Mar 20, 2014)

MiniBMS is a brand, and GMAW stands for gas-metal arc welding aka MIG (metal inert gas) as opposed to gas tungsten arc welding (aka TIG, tungsten inert gas).


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## Jarel Design (Jul 2, 2015)

Moltenmetal:
THANKS!

Duncan:

The jury is not out ..yet, But... The VW set up has all sorts of aftermarket parts to set it up in what ever way I want. In addition, anti sway bars. The height and amount of spring is adjustable (Will be: One of the modifications available after cutting the tube and the original spring assembly is an adjustable using that gets welded on making the suspension very adjustable...

I didn't like the shock mounts especially for the first concept layout, but I am going with a "full across body front/grill" that will be just as aerodynamic as a narrow body with open wheel/micro fenders (Wait until you see the new sketches (still in my mind but ready to put on paper) It looks so good! I LOVE it! The headlights are hidden under the part of the body that reaches over to the fenders (fenders stay put while the wheel pivots inside). The main body will still hug the chassis with Carbon Fiber "louver spoilers" that will be adjustable for neutral or downward pressure at high speeds. VERY small air intake to divert air to cool batters and to pass across small radiator to cool the water passing through the controller's chiller plate.

I got my first mechanism completed (works PERFECTLY!), and the second mechanism fits perfectly and won't interfere with the first or the eyelid mechanism... Whew! Should just be easy work tomorrow to get it done. If the book delivery arrives in the morning, I'll be in trouble! LOL! I'm hoping for about 4 to 6 more hours of work to complete the entire gang of robot creatures!

Tresa just started cooking dinner so I'm going back to the Orion site and look up the miniBMS as well...

Thanks !

Richard


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## ken will (Dec 19, 2009)

For front suspension, you might want to check out some DuneBuggy forums.


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## Jarel Design (Jul 2, 2015)

Still no books... 
Procrastinating on project (I'll get right back to it)

Instead, I've been looking for VW parts... 

I found a professionally built front end (Tube section with adjusters and steering gear box mount for $141!!! The torsion/spring bars Lengthened to match are $13 ea (need two)... So all I need is a VW front end donor car I can strip the front end parts from and I'm set to go... (Still need correctly sized steering linkages)... I haven't contacted them yet but will when the time is ready letting them know what I want to do and what I need and/or what year VW to look for.

I really didn't want to do the "surgery" on a stock front end and widen it myself...

So the front wheel tracking will be 68.5"!!! Pretty much what I have been thinking of, but they also make 6" front end widening front ends too. They are all for street use so no issues about having raised front ends which is most popular with dune buggies (I checked! ALL had ridiculous heights!)

Got my PM sending issues straightened out, all the animals are taken care of for the day, corn bed watered...

Time to get to work.

Where are those books! (My favorite work station in the studio faces the front street with a huge picture window... Hope I don't get distracted! LOL!


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## Jarel Design (Jul 2, 2015)

Books arrived at Tresa's work... Allowed me to continue working until she got home.

Good thing because continuing on the prototype was a complete NIGHTMARE ! (poke a lot of "french" really loud!)

Kept working until 9PM... Finally got the eyes working correctly. Today, I complete the motorized arm mechanism.

The books were horrible! So much detail on subjects I had no interest in and when it came to frame design, less than a couple of pages!

Books go back to Amazon and another ordered. Meanwhile found the Locost page and learned a lot as well as found other sites pertaining to space-frame chassis design (bookmarked for future reading).

I want to get this client project working so I can let go and get back to the fun part of concept sketches... Found some ergonomic/scale vehicle drawings I can scale up to Ken/Barbie dolls and will use them to create the control drawings for this vehicle starting with the scale of the dolls (since I don't want to create them from scratch... That would be too much like "work"! LOL!

I'll come back when I have a few more concept sketches completed to share the new design direction I'm going in.

Later!

Richard


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

Hi Richard
Re Books
The one I wanted most was
High Speed Low Cost - by Alan Staniforth
But it has been out of print for many decades
(Description about how he made the "Terrapin" a 130 mph mini based race car)

Next best (and more useful) is 
Race and Rally car Source book - by Alan Staniforth

A lot of useful info about suspension design, spring rates....

The main tubular frame info is
"Make two signs for your workshop
(1) All loads go into the joints - never put any loads into the middle of a tube
(2) All tubes should be straight

Have you thought about your local library??


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

When you have the dolls make yourself a balsa wood and cardboard chassis to the same scale 
I started by making a Locost chassis


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## Jarel Design (Jul 2, 2015)

Duncan:

THANKS! 

I just found a used Race and Rally book on Amazon (Good condition) for $18! Just placed the order a few minutes ago. (There was only one used one left!)

Library... GREAT idea! We have a couple nearby and they can order books if it's in their system but not at that particular branch... I've found lots of great books there... One was out of print and I REALLY wanted to own a copy. I asked how much I'd have to pay if I "Lost" it... Geeze! Those Gremlins... The one's that loose your car keys... They struck again!!! 

I have a TON of websites teaching tubular frame fabrication... Haven't had a chance to read through them but those I quickly browsed I saved...

I have been checking Dune Buggy sites (forums and parts dealers)... Then I stumbled onto sites dealing with modifying street VWs... Learned about lowering the front axle assembly, controlling stiffness, steering modifications etc.... One site (The Locust car site) had a great thread about a guy who wanted to use a VW axle assembly... Aside from the looks, He was given many thumbs ups and advice on how to and what to (modifying for road handling)...

Discovered that the Type 3 VW hatchback, notch back and fast back vehicles came with better steering, adjustable (and WIDER), front ends as well as disc brakes... I just happened to have found one for $500 on Craigslist... I think that would be a great deal to get the entire front end with disc brakes, and a few other parts, systems I could salvage before selling it to the scape metal collectors around here...

It's 5PM... I FINALLY completed the last creature robot! YEAH!!!  Works great! I have a few super minor things to spiff them up, but I'll do that tomorrow. I also need to video tape them in action so the design group has something to look at Monday morning. I'll ship to NY Monday for Tuesday delivery...

They liked what they saw already, so much, that they already have me starting on a new set of projects... I'm thinking salvage VW, Orion BMS with all the goodies, seats, paint, rims, ...yeah, the list goes on and on! LOL!

I was hoping to be done with work before noon, take a break and start drawing... I don't think that's going to happen... My brain is so scrambled from figuring out these mechanics... (I sure wish I could post photos/videos, but alas, confidentiality keeps me from doing so.) 

I did scale a a human figure (paper) with joints marked out. Scaled him to my height then extrapolated the ratio to scale a side view photo I had of a Honda CB500 so that it was the same size/scale as the human figure. I'll print it out on card stack, cut out all the parts, pin it together and use it to scale a side view mechanical drawing...

(Laughing here...) With regards to a model... It's what I do for a living! For over 25 years! The model I plan to do will be starting with the body... Vacuum forming a few shells and then cutting one up like "Bread", in slices to help guide me building a plastic tubular frame. I'll mock up a motorcycle (The main frame, engine, and rear wheel.) I use special glues (kind of like "crazy glue/super glue"), and all the tools to build the real deal... I'll use some R/C car wheels if I can find them the right size... If not, I may have some molds of some tires/rims that I created to make some of the batmobiles and other vehicles I've created for toy companies...

What I hope to have is a clear vacuum formed body I can mask off the windows, and paint the inside so I get that super gloss finsih that cannot be scratched... If I decide to go "overboard" (like this isn't already?!? LOL!), I may even make the hinged gull wing doors... All wheels will roll, I'll build a scale VW front end and have the wheels "steer" (No, I'm stopping before thinking about making a steering box and steering wheel. I just want to be able to see the wheels pivot within the body.) None of this will happen until I find the ken and barbie dolls and create some control/working drawings (side, top, front, back views) that fit the scale of the dolls... I'll probably sculpt the body in foam and clay (Super quick process for me... Once I have the control drawings, I could get it done in a few days... Pour a plaster mold and then cast it in Ultracal (a super hard dental cement), to vacuum form. Usually, for client projects, I'd use platinum based silicone for the mold and a metal filled high temp resin for the vacuum form bucks (molds).

Well.. It's getting on to 6PM... Think I'll browse some of the websites I bookmarked and forgo any drawing tonight...

Thanks again for the book recommendations and the idea of going to the library!

Good night!

Richard


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

_I've found lots of great books there... One was out of print and I REALLY wanted to own a copy._

That was where I found "High Speed Low Cost" - but I took it back!
Silly me 
I bet it was thrown out in the next years library tidy up
It was out of print then - and that must be thirty years ago

One of the Improvements Allan talked about was fitting seat belts in his racer
(He did it for safety but found it gained him a couple of seconds a lap)
Which show how long ago he was building the terrapin and racing it.


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## ken will (Dec 19, 2009)

Duncan said:


> _I've found lots of great books there... One was out of print and I REALLY wanted to own a copy._
> 
> That was where I found "High Speed Low Cost" - but I took it back!
> Silly me
> ...


Amazon has one for only $145

http://www.amazon.com/High-Speed-Cost-Allan-Staniforth/dp/085059037X


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

Hi Ken
I'm a Scotsman - "Only" and $145 do not belong together!


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## ken will (Dec 19, 2009)

Duncan said:


> Hi Ken
> I'm a Scotsman - "Only" and $145 do not belong together!


I just thought it was funny that "The story of a 140 mph Mini" cost $145!
That's more than $1 per mph.


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## Jarel Design (Jul 2, 2015)

*Re: NEW CONCWPT SKETCH! THIS IS THE "ONE"!!!*

laughing my head off guys...

I saw that copy on Amazon... "Only" $145!!! What a "Deal"!!!

I loved you math on dollars per mph! and your noting that it was "ONLY" $145!!! LOLOL!

I studied more space frame design last night... got some great information! Also researched more specs on the VW front end... Turns out the "Type 3" version is the one I want to then modify...

Anyone out there have any reverse trike experience. The stock VW bug front tire track is only 51". The type 3 is a little wider... I was hoping to get into 68" +... The wider the tracking, the more stable...

Which brings up a question I have not found on line... Where is the width tracking measured? at the rim where it mounts to the brakes? The outside of the tire? I'd like to use fairly narrow tires to keep that wheel fairing as streamlined as possible (not too narrow to jeopardize traction).

So after my researching, I went to bed and (pardon the pun) "Crashed"! The frustration I had with that last little robot, so close to the deadline just took it out of me. I still have to alter a couple of minor details that will not conflict with mechanics. Take some photos, take some video, edit and email to NY... I just lost my creativity... Better to rest and start over.

So this morning, I woke up and sketched out what has been brewing in my mind since I shared the first concept sketch (I told you this was "preliminary and only the first step of a process that will certainly evolve...).

Well, This one "evolved" and is now SO CLOSE to what I want!!!

I didn't want open, fendered front wheels reminding us that this is a "sort of motorcycle". I really like the look of a "real car"... but aerodynamics is real important... I also wanted something that looked like a futuristic/modern concept car with a look that (besides being stylish and pleasing to look at, saidOWER". I've seen to many "economy" high mpg vehicles that just reeked of geek/nerd... I believe getting 100mpg to 200mpg doesn't have to look like something our grandmothers would drive... If I'm going to build it, why not have a sports car look?

So... as you look at this new sketch, know that the main body follows the hood line to the front point under "wings" that reach outward to the outer edge of the front wheels (I still want a small air intake for a cooling radiator for the controller chiller and to duct air into the cabin.) 

The main body panels (as they follow the front doors), narrows as it goes towards the front "pointed nose". The front wheels are in stationary fairings (covered on the inside of that opening), for low drag. The space in between the main body and wheel faring is open to let air pass through. I will also be able to place two inverted NACA scoops (one on each side), to suck air out of the hood area (battery cooling) which will also help me keep the front grill small. The "nose" styling is still not where I want it and that will go through further transformation. The rear part of the front fenders will receive the same black carbon fiber louver treatment as under the front headlights. On the upper outer corner of the rear fenders will be recessed turn signal lights facing rearward for safety as well as a long strip of LED's for additional brake lights (also for safety).

The doors are still gull wing configuration as is the rear cargo hatch. I may drop the roof line a bit where it travels from the cabin top to the tail. I had originally wanted the space for cargo and I still could, but I won't want to carry anything substantial further back and I know that dropping the roof line gong back to the tail will add to the "slipperiness" aerodynamic-wise.

Tresa found some old (very old!) sketches I did decades ago... (I've atteched them.) The two color cars were small "samurai" type SUV's (One was what if Maserati made one (Keeping the front grill styling of the era. the third sketch was of a front wheel fairing for the reverse trike drawing I shared in an earlier post. This one had lights in the fenders (Following Tucker's concept of a steerable front headlight).

So, I have a little more work to do and I'm more than happy that I captured what I've been conjuring up in my mind on paper, so I'm outta here! 

Hope you enjoy!

Richard


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## samwichse (Jan 28, 2012)

That drawing is interesting, but I want to know how you're planning to fit side-by-side seating AFTER tapering the body from full car-width to trike width.

Also. That car front end idea is going to end up very aerodynamically ugly (looks neat though). If you do intend to have a single seat-width body in the passenger area, making a broad front end that's abruptly cut off like that is going to be almost as bad for aero as have a plain old 4-wheel car.

Tapering rearward is important!










That pic is the Myers Motors Duo (a car that will probably never be produced). It has side-by-side seating for two and uses the proper aerodynamic tapering a 3-wheeler can make possible. They do crap it up a bit with the faux front fenders and the taper behind the doors is too steep to be efficient.


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## Jarel Design (Jul 2, 2015)

The seating arrangement will be side by side, but loosing most of the space in between the two seats.

The overall width at it's widest point will begin at the seats (Shoulders and hips), and narrow as the body panels (sides), travel forward (Feet/leg space will be narrower than the rear part of the seats.) The tapering will gradually continue forward and extend MUCH further forward than your photo... (and probably much further forward than this concept sketch (I'm planning on placing the battery pack under the "hood" and want as much space forward of the front axles to compensate the CG. I want about a 30% (front), to 60% rear) weight distribution keeping everything as low as possible The transition from this vehicle's widest point to the nose will be over a long distance creating a very efficient presentation to wind.

I'm absolutely convinced that the aerodynamics will be nothing like a regular car...

I've designed three world land speed record vehicles; three ultralight aircraft and many remotely piloted aircraft where aerodynamics is much more critical than our EVs, winning several awards for my work. I've studied and applied aerodynamic theory from two German PHD professors specializing in laminar airflow as it to pertains to Reynold numbers in smaller craft. I'm no stranger when it comes to aerodynamic design. 

When I create the scale control drawings (especially as viewed from the top), the aerodynamics will become a lot more evident than this "concept sketch".

Albeit, the width at the passenger's elbows and shoulder will not be "roomy"... Always a compromise when dealing with the "real world" and comfort... 

I too will see what I'm dealing with when I create the first control drawings and begin revising them. 

Richard


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## Jarel Design (Jul 2, 2015)

PS:

The width at the seats will be MUCH narrower than a regular car.

And... I can see in my sketch, that the rear tail does not appear to be as narrow (tapered), as it will be... In reality, I doubt the rear tail width will be more than 18". 

My fault: This concept sketch was created in less that 30 minutes...

I just wanted to 'capture" the idea this morning before I got back to work with my prototype design work.

Richard


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## ken will (Dec 19, 2009)

Jarel Design said:


> I want about a 30% (front), to 60% rear) weight distribution


I think you got that backwards.


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## Jarel Design (Jul 2, 2015)

TOTALLY LAUGHING MY HEAD OFF!!! (At me!)

Total "Brain Typo"!

YES! I wrote it backwards!

I had some problems with the prototypes as I was filming them and had to do some serious re-building... Rushed like Crazy because Tresa got tickets to the Shakespeare Festival in Ashland... (We're leaving in a few minutes)

So I was totally crazy rushed... got the photos and videos taken, videos edited and saved ready to email to the client (Later tonight or tomorrow morning.

After the previous post about aerodynamics and "styling", When I create the top scale control drawings, I'll do one half with the fender and the other half showing the air passage area between the body and the inside surface of the wheel... Then I think it will make more sense.

The other side of the coin is about styling and personal taste and how that translates into compromise... I have all sorts of "tricks up my sleeve", but ultimately most industrial design projects come down to all sorts of compromises, cost, fabrication, styling and function. I run into a lot of designers that want it all... Sometimes I can deliver, other times, I can offer them choices.

Let's see what you think once I post an initial control drawing showing the outside and the inside of this area.

OK... I hear her hair drier, so I think we're getting close to leaving...

Hmmm... I wonder if she'll miss it when she turns on the "heater" in this vehicle? "Honey... You installed a heater!" Yup! By the way, have you seen my hair drier?" 

OK... it stopped... gotta go!

Thank Ken! (Still laughing!)

Richard


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

Hi Richard
Are you totally wedded to the three wheels?
Looking at your concepts and width you may be better going four wheels
Three wheels is actually very inefficient in terms of space - your central rear wheel and suspension eat very valuable floorspace

The only reason I can see for going for three wheels is if it's easier to get a trike legally on the road


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## Jarel Design (Jul 2, 2015)

Hi Duncan:

Yes, Absolutely in LOVE with trike layout. This will be a "recreational" driving (Weekend drives through the country side, driving to the coast for the day, driving into Ashland for cultural events (Last night we went to Ashland to see a play, we attend their "first Friday art gallery show" etc.. Just getting out of the house and going driving for the fun of it.

We have a Honda CRV (mini SUV) that is our general vehicle (27mpg to 30mpg) with LOTS of room in back and a full size Chevy Pick Up Truck for larger hauling. We grow almost 80% of our own food here including vegetables, fruit and meat (chickens, rabbits, quail and aquaponic grown Tilapia. Trips to the grocery store staples are minimal (toilet paper, coffee, creamer, paper towels etc... we never bring back more than 2 to 3 grocery bags. so "cargo" capacity is the lowest priority for us.

Benefits for the trike are much lower insurance here and Much easier to get licensed for street use...

BUT THE MOST IMPORTANT factor is that I am absolutely in LOVE with reverse trike designs! The REAL LOVE of this project for me is designing, styling and building this from scratch... My number one passion is inventing, designing and fabricating. I've been doing it all my life since I was a young boy and I have been doing it professionally for over 25 years. I do not plan on retiring from the thing I love doing the most! I LOVE my job! 

Aerodynamics will be MUCH better than it may appear from my concept sketch. Once I get a top view with cut away of the front fender area, it will make more sense, but even then, styling will be chosen over a few reynolds number (aerodynamic efficiency) calculations... I've built ultimate efficiency vehicles where the numbers and speed were the only priority. This vehicle (although designed to be slippery), will not be one of those.

So yes... I'm "Wedded" to this design as much so as I am with my wife (Who is my absolute best friend... Best friend I've ever had in my life (male or female).. (How cool is that!? We're both amazed at our relationship...)

This vehicle is for pure fun!

I do agree with you though if my priorities or justification for this vehicle were otherwise.

Richard


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## Jarel Design (Jul 2, 2015)

*Re: Aerodynamic Fender:*

Just a quick sketch (THIS IS ROUGH!!!) just to better explain how I'm approaching the new fender styling design and it's aerodynamics. My NY clients LOVED the videos of their robotic creatures and want me to start on another, more complex prototype, so I've got to get going again. Up side: More EV $$$, downside: tight on time.

I've attached a rendering of how you'd see it standing at the front left fender AND, a top view (partial cutaway) to see what's going on inside.

The main body is sharpened towards the front like most performance trikes. This one however has a horizontal "wing" that reaches over the top to a "fixed" wheel faring.

Think of the fender as having a fixed, wheel fairing, a separate aerodynamic body with a bridge across the top. 

This wheel faring does not rotate side to side with the wheel while turning. The outer edge looks just like the rendering, but what you don't see is that there is a wheel fairing on the inside as well. 

The front of the tire is aerodynamically "faired" at it's leading edge. As you look at the wheel fairing traveling rearward, the outer side surface looks just like the outside fender rendering. On the inside, the fairing travels parallel to the wheel then scallops outward towards the out rear edge of the fender creating a sharp "tail". This will help create a vacuum (negative pressure), to help draw the wind though to it's exit at the rear (which will be completely open except for more louvers, and turn ad brake lights in the form of a thin strip of LEDs. These rear louvers, will also decrease the turbulence exiting this area to help create a laminar flow against the reminder of the main body following this abrupt cut of the fender.

The reason for the scallop on the inside is to keep from restricting the air flow/wind entering this area (which would increase drag) and allow the wind (hopefully helping the wind), to pass freely "THROUGH" the fender. The slats you see in the front of this opening (rendering), straighten out the turbulent air flow like the entrance to wind in a wind tunnel, reducing the turbulence as the wind enters this space.

Against the body (further behind the suspension), there is a top view of a reverse NACA scoop that will draw air out of the hood (hoping to help keep batteries cool). If I can create a negative pressure at this point, this will be very effective!

The top part of the fender is a "wing" that connects the fixed wheel faring to the body. Underneath this "wing", the cross section will be slightly cambered (Think airplane wing), to reduce air pressure inside this passageway.

I drew in where the lights wound be at the entrance (Yes... I know:drag... But I LIKE them for their looks (compromise).

I'm thinking of installing an air dam against the inside surface of the rim at the spindle that would not spin, but would help keep turbulent air mixing up with the spinning wheel. (I'll have to test, with and without).

When the front wheels rotate (side to side for steering), the wheels will be inside this area, but then, the vehicle would not be traveling fast so the aerodynamic impact would be minimized.

I hope this helps?

Richard


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## sunworksco (Sep 8, 2008)

Reverse-trike configuration saves weight and has less under-body drag.
Keep the CG, within 12" rear of front axle and wiser to use front wheel drive. 
Front wheel drive is easier to control, during panic maneuvers, when the rear end fishtails. It is better for brake regen, too. Also use no-flat type rear tire.


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## Jarel Design (Jul 2, 2015)

Sunworksco:

I think you might have missed the point of my project:

To design and build a Hybrid reverse trike from scratch using a rear ICE drive motorcycle (frame, engine and rear suspension), and attaching an electric drive motor to the ICE output shaft to enable pure EV drive (as well as battery charging while under ICE power), while at the same time, not impeding the ability to switch back to pure ICE power when desired.

A front wheel drive donor vehicle will not suit my project as all.

Thanks for your input though.

Richard


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## Jarel Design (Jul 2, 2015)

*Re: I have a driver!!! =D*



Well, my scale control drawings for the model (that will ultimately become the start of my full size building drawings), was based on finding Barbie/Ken dolls to scale everything to...

I didn't find anything I liked so I went back into my boxes of left overs from toy prototypes I've created for different companies... In one of my boxes, I found an old Max Steel action figure (I've created MANY of the vehicles for the Max Steel line of toys for Mattel.)

This one came dressed (in of all things), a yellow Nomax driving suit along with racing gloves, shoes and a full face helmet! The nice thing about the Max Steel action figures is that ALL the joints are positionable... Neck, shoulders, elbows, knees, wrists, ankles etc... I can actually try getting him to go through the motions of "climbing in" and see how difficult or easy it might be fore met to enter and exit.

He's 11.75" tall, so I did the math to figure out the scale to create the drawings for a 5'10" person (me!) and went from there. I have a side view photo of a Honda CB500 and knew that the wheel base was 55.5" long so I scaled that based on the calculations for working around "Max" as if he were 5'11".

Just got back from Kinko's, printing a photo of Max in seated position and the Honda.

First "Rough ESTIMATES" for the model are between 25" and 28"... At 28", the final vehicle could turn out to be 13.8' long (But I haven't even begun to start drawing, so I could be wrong...)

This is going to be a much bigger model than I had anticipated... The up side, is: when I go to take measurements for scaling it up to full size, I'll be that much more accurate. 

Scale of the model is .168"=1"

I have plenty of plastic Styrene Tubing to create the frame... However, My longest Vacuum former (useable length is only 28") and some of that has to be unused (just the nature of the process: Extra plastic has to be allowed to drape over the male buck/mold... Might fit at an angle or I may have to make the body in two pieces... Instead of a one piece clear plastic body I can just paint from behind and get a scratch proof outer gloss finish, I will probably end up molding the body in sections as I would create the final fiberglass body: Removable front piece for easy access, a center cockpit/cabin area and a removable tail section... (Thinking about it, I'll go that route with the model and mold it in HIPS... I can then cut out doors, windshield etc and fit gull wing doors and rear side access hatches.)

This is going to be a big model! 

I think I'm going to need a bigger desk! LOL!

OK... enough for the day... 

PS: I have two frame design books on their way... Hope they're good... Wished they were here now! LOL!

Richard


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## Jarel Design (Jul 2, 2015)

*Re: "See Through" scale drawings, frame, batteries etc..*

OK...

Been spending WAY TOO much time on the Locust website studying frame design, suspension, steering, handling etc... Bought two more race car design books... One was GREAT!

So I finally decided on a 1/12 scale model (I found a 1/12 scale motorcycle model which would save me from scratch building it, I could then study the frame to see how best to attach the bike to the main frame (Tamiya model: Near museum quality and has the complete frame as it is on the bike.). I could also study and test torsional rigidity of the tubular frame and get a better look as to how everything will fit.

Going from front to back:

The two "Boxes" are my battery boxes (grey area is insulation and hard shell case.) I was hoping for 96v, but could only fit 24 cells (84v at 3.5v per cell). I wanted to get the weight of the batteries as far forward as possible and as low as possible... Got it! I'll also be carrying a small deep-cycle 12v battery that the bike will charge... could go in the very front or behind the seats outside of the cabin. With the battery boxes so low, I have the option to install a lightweight removable "trunk floor to carry groceries, etc up front, Because of that, I will explore lowering the rear roof-line in the interest of aerodynamics.

The front end is an extended Type 3 VW front end. (I'll be able to adjust the height of the frame relative to the wheels. (Diameter of the wheels are 27"... I have no idea how big the rims will be but I want a "semi-low profile" tire with enough side wall to be able to smooth-en out the ride and give a little bit in hard cornering. Width of this trike, is 79", length is 14'8", ground clearance, is 5".

In the top view you can see the flow through fender design I had mentioned in an earlier post. When the wheels are pointed forward (high speed where it really counts), the wheels will be faired. The rear end of the fenders is open save for more CF louvers that will smooth out the exiting wind flow so that turbulent air will not be the first thing that "sticks" to the rest of the body.

The forward roll bar protects the driver, the rear roll bar comes in to allow space for the side scoops. The doors are gull-wing (hinged at the top of the cross piece of the roll cage), and will open upwards for easier access to the cockpit.The lower side scoops will help keep the engine cool, channeling any wind into the piston area of the engine.

I'll begin building a balsa scale frame tomorrow where I expect to find discrepancies between top and side views of the frame layout. I can then test for rigidity (Several areas are slated for spanning sheet to create as rigid a frame as possible.) I'll also be able to better see how the bike is supported by the structural tubing between the main frame the steering head of the bike. I want the bike to be removable, so I'll be incorporating a tube that fits where the bikes forks were originally attached and creating a welded plate below that will bolt/clamp on to the lower part of the bike's frame.

The circle located in the rear triangle represents the scale AC-15 motor.

OK... that's it for now... Time to take a break!

Best,
Richard


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## Tomdb (Jan 28, 2013)

reminds me of the tri-magnum

http://www.rqriley.com/index.htm


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## Jarel Design (Jul 2, 2015)

*Re: Tri Magnum*

Smiling here...

The Tri Magnum (RX3?) was a great inspiration (among other reverse trikes) for me. I REALLY liked it... Still do!  I loved that most of the body/frame (above the tunnel frame) was fiberglass... I LOVE how well thought out that vehicle is. The accessibility to components etc... The list goes on as far as "likes" for me and that vehicle.

I think my biggest "dream" (?), is designing and building my own vehicle from scratch... Just something I've wanted to do since i was about 14 yrs old (I'm now 61!).

I still have questions about my design which is why I'm starting off by building a 1/12 scale models. There could be minor changes and/or major changes as I proceed.

I like how short the TriMagnum is (10'8") where mine is 14'8"... I like the shorter look more, but I know that the length adds to the aerodynamic efficiency... But, it also will make my turning radius much bigger... These kinds of trade offs are part of the development process... Laughing at myself here realizing just how much of a project I "bit-off"! 

One of the biggest unresolved issues is the width/front wheel tracking and the VW beam modifications and the internal torsion bars. I still need to speak with a local VW mechanic who has quite a bit of experience with scratch builds and axle beam modifications. (I just want to know if it can be done and... how will it affect street handling. 

Originally, I thought I wanted to lower the axles. With the larger front wheels and battery placement I'm seeing the possible conflict with the steering tie rods and the top of the battery box. Right now it looks close (maybe an inch or two of clearance) as the tie rods pass over the battery box. I think I'd like more clearance as a safety measure. Might end up needing dropped axle spindles, used to raise baja buggies. Then I can mount the beams a little higher on the frame while keeping the lower ground clearance and create more space between the tie rods and the top of the battery box.

Ah... the list goes on and my brain hurts from how much studying I've been doing... beginning with the electrical drive questions here on this forum, to structural fabrication, metallurgy, race car aerodynamics.... so much to think about...

I'm looking forward to just sitting down with my balsa sticks, turning on the stereo, no client project deadlines looming over head, taking the day "off" and tacking the first of what I'm sure will be many frame pre-models, before I switch over to plastic tube model with more accuracy... 

OK... first cup of coffee waiting in the coffee maker.

Best,
Richard


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## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

Jarel Design said:


> (as well as battery charging while under ICE power),


I saw this somewhere else in this thread, and it has caught my attention both times. This does not sound right, unless you are only planning on capturing waste braking energy while in ICE mode. It does not make sense to charge your traction battery with regen that is generated from the ICE. A DIY hybrid will probably never function as well as an Atkinson engine coupled to the right motor with the correct software, but if you are able to take advantage of the WASTED braking energy while in ICE mode, you could do very well. I run an AC motor and have it programmed for no off throttle regen, but I have a thumb control for large amounts of on demand regen, plenty to handle all of my braking needs. Having an EV that captures ALL of my braking energy is proving to be far more efficient than a traditional EV that is set up with off throttle regen. I would imagine that a concept like this in a DIY hybrid would take it to the next level.


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## Jarel Design (Jul 2, 2015)

*Re: Update: First Model (SO dissapointed!)*

So I may have been absent here, but I have been SUPER busy working on this project!

Following the drawings I shared earlier, I built (what I now Know), will be the first of MANY frame design exploration models… Half way through building this model I became VERY disappointed (to say the least!): With my history and experience designing, engineering and fabricating prototypes for over 20 years, my "expectations" (I REALLY have to eliminate this word and all that goes with it, from my vehicle build!!!)... My "expectations were MUCH HIGHER!!! I read SO many threads on frame design: I took notes, cut and pasted word documents to read over... I "Thought" all I had to do was figure out the details for the bike attachment... HA!

As you look at this model, you'll note lots of "triangulation” at the forward end... As I continued rearward from the nose, (after the back of the front wheel), I just wanted to get this painful experience over with (Really felt like I was kicked in the gut!)... I did learn a lot on the “Locost” Website though and glad that I "completed this model"... There will be LOTS for me to absorb and incorporate into the next design.

My primary goals for the frame for this vehicle is keeping it light, while supporting strength and safety... I will not be exceeding 70mph and most of my driving will be 55mph and below. No race-like cornering and in general, kind of laid back cruising country roads and tooling around exploring small towns. It seems strength and weight fight each other... I approach this project with a lack of experience and fueled by the fear of the frame cracking or being over stressed. As I saw the direction this model was taking, I went back to the Locost frame design forums reading again the many threads on frame design and building. I had "originally" had this vision of a beautifully built/welded 1.25" X .065" round tube frame... NOW, I understand the gravitation towards square tubing!!!







So "now", I'm looking at 1" X 1" X .065 SQUARE tubing!









There is so much that went wrong with this model... The seats were inaccurate (scale-wise) as they represented WIDE seats AND armrests. About the only thing that was accurate, were the two battery boxes up front. (Even those, I know see where I might be able to add more cells in the rear pack to bring the voltage up to 96v

Now that I’ve been inspired to build the complete frame and eliminate the motorcycle frame, I'm back to square 1: design-wise... 

The one thing I did not do, was to at least estimate the body cross sections along the length of the model BEFORE I began... That was my first mistake! I may clay up the body close to this frame, vacuum form some plastic shells and cut them up into "ribs" (kind of like a wooden boat) to coordinate interior fabrication and accurately scaled components with body requirements. This vehicle will have a completely enclosed body and interior sculpting so the truth is that none of the frame will be visible except to open up the "hood" to maintain batteries and access a small trunk that will be built/suspended over the batteries. The flooring (nose to just ahead of the motorcycle ICE compartment will be for aerodynamics and to protect EV electronics. (I'll enclose the EV motor separately and provide a fan and ducting system for cooling.)

Whew!

I'm typing away here, totally crushed, so I'm sure I'm forgetting more details... and I just need to “step away”!

The front VW axle: 
The paper up the sides of the beam tubes represent thick sheet metal welded to the tube axle beam with the thought that I would bolt it to the frame and have a "slot" to remove it for maintenance or replace it for repairs in case of structural damage. Not sure if that will be necessary or desired structurally, but I can see that I learned something (even if I got it "wrong") regarding providing rigidity throughout the transition from the tubular frame to the axle to the other side of the axle. (theoretically at least)...

I'm taking a break from this... I just have to emotionally! I also need to speak with the VW mechanic regarding details about the front axle modification and I need to go visit some motorcycle shops to inspect donor engine candidates (Looking for 400cc to 500cc), to see how they could be mounted to a space frame before re-designing this frame. I also need to speak with my EV component supplier again regarding several topics.

Tresa has been an absolute sweetheart throughout all of “this” taking up slack around the house and our "farm" with nothing but smiles and meals brought to me, because she knew I wouldn't "take a break", even if I didn't know that I "needed it"... So, I wanted to share with you here and go spend some time with her (She works for the school district and her vacation will end later this week... It might be nice to take one of our drives to the coast or whatever else she might desire... She deserves so much more than I have given her this past week building this model (AND the weeks I have been researching all the different elements that will go into this vehicle!)

Again, only the forward section of this frame "seems complete". After the rear portion of the front axle beam, I just wanted to get it done and left out a lot!... I'm "pretty sure" the roll bar is weak as is the frame for the windshield and just forget about the motorcycle frame attachment. That’s going to change completely... The twin tubes that run along the center between the two roll bars on top are for mounting the gull-sing door hinges. I still have to figure out how I want to build the front body and what (if any) framework I want for this section. I'm pretty sure I'd like to see two tubes coming out the sides along the top of the fender section to add support and probably a rectangular frame at the rear part of the open ended fender... With my composite skills, I'm pretty sure I can build this to pretty much support itself.

SO MUCH more to learn, SO MUCH more to figure out... I won't be building another model again until I go through laying everything out on paper again... I still have the scale Honda CB750 model coming in with an accurate engine (I've scaled this 1/12 model to match the 750 as if it were the CB500. I'll go ahead and build new seats that are a LOT more accurate. The two battery boxes will remain the same (I’ll explore re-configuring the rear pack to see if I can get it up to 96v), and once I speak with the VW mechanic about the front axle modifications, I'll speak with some wheel/rim tire people to establish the width, diameter and dish out/in on the rims. I'll probably turn a scale model of the rim/tire on the lathe and mold it in plastic... Once I have ACCURATELY scaled models of the different components, I'll start drawing again...

I have two client projects coming up so I probably won't be able to do that much work on this vehicle, (Honestly, I’m Exhausted!!!), but I will certainly be spending early morning and late night hours visiting the Locost site to learn more....

OK... enough... I need to take the rest of the day "off" from this.

Thank you so much for your support!

Best,

Richard


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## Jarel Design (Jul 2, 2015)

*New design revisions with photo!*

Hello!

I just shipped out the last of 8 robotic client prototypes so (for now), I’ve got a “little time off”. Tresa noted that I’ve been keeping this 18hr+days, 7 days a week schedule for almost 2 months! (I just received notice for a second set of 5 robot prototypes from a different client starting in the next few days… Seems like lately, I’m being asked to design robots! Oh well, it pays the bills and allows me a little to put away for this project. I have to admit they’re fun to create. (Sure wished I could share videos with you… Maybe when they come out on the market next year.)

Still waking up in the middle of the night, “buzzing” with excitement about this project and continuing my research especially at the Locost car website… I’ve also been reading a lot in two of the books I purchased: “Chassis Engineering” by: Herb Adams & “Race and Rally Car Source Book” by: Allan Staniforth. I’ve mostly been spending my time studying ICE donor engine application, frame and suspension design:

The first thing I realized was, I had to develop my “car vocabulary”… What is a “bonnet”? … And, what the heck is a “Scuttle”? LOL! (Now I know!)

Here’s “small part” of what I’ve learned and taking into consideration for creating my 2nd round of design drawings (This only covers a partial list of what I’ve learned and how to incorporate this new info into my next set of drawings):

Scuttle and forward frame design:
I wasn’t sure how to connect the dashboard, the firewall, and the windshield to the forward (bonnet) part of the vehicle… Now I know… a Scuttle! Looking at my first drawings and model, I feel like I was a primary grade kid knowing nothing at all! My frame was designed for the top frame tubes to come up to the windshield line! 

Now these tubes will be a lot lower, coming up to the bottom of the scuttle with the scuttle’s arch crossing the top of the dashboard meeting the windshield and extending forward enough to incorporate hidden windshield wipers and a supporting lip for the forward part of the body… I’ll be creating a composite scuttle (I have a long history creating composite parts, Carbon Fiber, Kevlar, Vacuum bagging, mold less/foam fabrication (Helped build a Burt Rutan designed “Long Easy” aircraft and learned a LOT about mold less, structural composite fabrication including hot wire cutting foam to shape.) This will solve a LOT and use a LOT less metal frame, saving weight!

DOT approved windshield:
I also read that some Locost car builders were having DOT approved, OEM “donor” windshields cut to size… I didn’t realize this was possible! (I’m planning to speak with a few local windshield repair shops about this. I’d like a “curved” windshield with the ability to not have to conform to an OEM shape. If this is true, I’ll be driving around with my camera and measuring tape, hoping to not set off car alarms as I seek out possible windshield donors! LOL!)

Interior:
Well, according to the books, I had the right idea, just got all the numbers wrong! Before I drew the 1st set of plans, I measured everything in the forward interior part of our “small” Honda CRV thinking “that, was small enough”… HA! Those seats were 24” wide and had additional armrests. I measured my hip width and Tresa’s and came up with 15” across. I’ll take into consideration adding a little wiggle room and comfort space for long rips as I search for stock Miata seats to measure (as possible cheap and easy, narrow donor seats before considering building them from scratch), again, hoping not to set off alarms… Actually, measuring the outside of a parked vehicle is a lot different than measuring the inside… I’ll ask first! LOL! The width of my first drawings at the seat was 56”! I’m hoping to narrow that a bit with a “goal,” of closer to 48” taking into consideration our bodies, seats, arm rests, shifter consol etc…

Frame: 
Definitely decided to go square tubing route (ease of fabrication)… Looking at 1” square tubing at .065” wall

Roll Bar:
I’ve seen a lot of Locosts with much larger diameter roll bars than the I” square frame tubing. I will be using a second, forward “roll bar” supporting the windshield and two tubes running forward and aft along the center roofline for added strength and for securing the hinges for the removable gull wing doors. The two rear roll bars will be braced (triangulated), into the new, revised rear ICE engine mount and swing arm support. (I’ve done away with the motorcycle frame completely and will be building the rear engine mount, EV motor mount, swing arm support, (and the swing arm), from scratch. I’m changing the geometry (top view), extending the rear wheel contact point for a longer wheelbase and will go with the 74” ~ 76” wide front wheel track making this reverse trike a LOT more stable than most. EV batteries will still be forward and low on the floor, as will the seats, bringing the weight mass as low as possible, while working to create the magic 33%-66% weight distribution ratio. I’ve posted questions about using 1” (thicker wall), round tubing to create these “roll bars” with regards to how much protection this will offer?

Suspension:
After reading more, I’ve decided to build my own rear swing arm. Turns out the alloy rear rim I plan to use will accept auto/car/”flat” tread tires supporting more traction and less prone to sliding in a turn. I’ll have to add spacers to bring the chain sprocket out so the chain clears the tire’s sidewall and the new design will add to the tortional strength of the arm.

Front suspension:
Here’s where I’m gritting my teeth waiting to hear from those of who changed my mind about using a VW front axle and building my own…

I’ve decided to go back to my original concept of modifying and using a VW Type 3 front suspension system. I just CAN’T be driving in “emotional comfort” while listening for vehicle sounds, feeling for odd vibrations through the steering wheel and looking out for pot holes etc, wondering if my “home built” suspension will surprise me in a most unwelcoming manner. I just can’t do it… Probably emotional, but I know how my brain works… Considering that I’m getting rid of the entire motorcycle frame and would have still needed rear tubular support for the MC frame if I used it, I “think”, I’ll be gaining some weight savings which should offset some of the added weight of the VW front end.

Body Styling and Aerodynamics:
I’m really working on this one… Still have a lot of “configuring” to do (mostly concerning fitting the EV batteries forward (weight distribution), while providing a little forward “crush zone” to protect them in collision...)

I went back to my 2nd body styling concept sketch after hearing from so many of you about my 2nd concept sketch providing too much frontal area to be “aerodynamically efficient.” I will be narrowing the main body at its’ widest point, and extending the tail which will help transition into a much smaller rear tip (also dropping the roof at the seats and sloping the roofline, downward a LOT more as the roof line transitions to the tail.

I tried to explain my concept for an “air flow through” front grille area on my 2nd wider “looking” styling design… Well, I found a photo that clearly shows, what I had in mind, (Photo attached)! The main body is extremely aerodynamically efficient. The front wheels are “faired” (in the case of this photo, only the outside has a “fairing”… I’m planning to have an inner smooth surface as well.) This set up IMHO provides the aerodynamics potentially inherent in a narrow entry trike main body, with aerodynamic fenders and… (My styling preference here), will hide those god-awful VW shock absorber towers! LOL!

I did a LOT of research for a donor ICE engine and chose a post 1996 or newer water-cooled, Kawasaki Vulcan 500. 46HP. It’s a proven engine design used for many years without changes and loved by many. Its’ maximum torque is at lower RPMS than the EX500 engine, which will help combine the gear ratios between the ICE and the EV motor, which also peaks max HP around the same RPM range. The ICE radiator will be mounted in one of the side air intakes. The other side air intake will flow into another (fanned), radiator that cools the EV motor controller.

So these are only a fraction of the things I’ve been studying, learned so far and plan to apply… I have TONS of saved files and print outs from the research I’ve been doing… My next step is to sift through and sort all this newly acquired info out so they’re readily accessible at a glance, before beginning the next round of drawings… Even then, I’ll create “sketches” with measurements first before starting on the next drawings. I’ll come back to post the next generation drawings for your most welcomed input!

I really want to thank everyone on this site! The information here is PRICELESS!!! I would never have learned (or will learn), what I have, if it were not for you!

OK… time to clean up the shop and studio, change blades, create new sanding blocks etc getting ready for the next round of client prototypes…

Best Regards!

Richard


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## Ampster (Oct 6, 2012)

I am not suggesting that you buy this but an interesting tadpole trike similar to the one you are designing. 
http://www.ebay.com/itm/201408782512


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## Jarel Design (Jul 2, 2015)

Interesting trike... a LOT of hardware!!!

My heart and soul is so totally set on building mine from scratch... Just got off the Locost Car forum learning more from the members there about frame and suspension design... (The last post suggested that I move my thread to the build forum as I have learned enough (I don't think so!!! LOL!) and have journeyed far enough that in fact (according to the poster), that my designing... is in fact, part of the building... I didn't think of it that way... I haven't picked up a welder or metal yet! LOL! (But I totally understand...)


OK... back to work! LOL!

Thanks for the link! (Helps me think that I'm not "off my rocker"!)



Richard


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## _GonZo_ (Mar 23, 2009)

Your trike drawings and your model (BTW great model) remembers me the Vortex 3 wheeler http://www.vortexplans.com 
May be you get some ideas from there.


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## Jarel Design (Jul 2, 2015)

Thanks!

Very nice design... I copied the 3-view with dimensions to reference and compare with what I'm now working on (Generation 2 revision of the original drawings). I have a lot of frame/suspension work I have to change... Been visiting the Locost car build website where I have another development thread going, focusing on frame, suspension, dimensions and weight distribution to get the best stability I can (for safety reasons.)

Thank you for sharing! It helped!

Richard


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## Jarel Design (Jul 2, 2015)

*Re: It's been a while!*

Hello,

It's been a while since I've posted. Instead of not much happening, a LOT is happening!!!

I've been over at the Locost website as well as Samba and ShopTalk, researching suspension, steering, widening the VW front beam etc...

I found a Type 1 ball joint beam (drum face to drum face), as well as rims, locally for $120!!!

After searching high and low for Miata seats (I measured on and was just getting ready to build two to create a full size mock-up of the cabin area for ergonomic fitting... I'll take those measurements to begin the next set of drawings.). I thought:"Why not place an ad on Craigslist to see if anyone locally has a pair (The closest I found any was in Sacramento... 6 hours away!) A couple of days later, the day I was going to go purchase the wood to create mock up seats, I got a call from a guy LOCALLY, that had one he was just transplanting the engine from to his daily driver! He offered me EVERYTHING he wasn't using!!!

I picked up two seats, seat belts, door handles and linkages, the center console and vertical center dash as well as sun visors and inner arm rests for $100!!! 

I'm going back on the 19th, to pick up the heater, windshield wiper system with washer, the rest of the dashboard and instrument cluster, emergency brake and cable and a few other odds and ends... price: $100!!

And he's removing this stuff! (He has an air wrench and could remove parts faster than I could find the right socket for my hand wrench while I was there.

I've created a cabin floor, mounted the seats and will be using cut down 2X2's to simulate the tubular frame, from rear roll bar to front dash...!

So, yeah... A LOT has been happening! This is coming together so much faster than I ever imagined!

I've been taking pictures, but I've also been working like crazy, 7 days a week... which is a GOOD thing! At lease I'll be able to continue buying more components!!! 

Waiting for a Kawasaki Vulcan 500 to show up on Craigslist for some ridiculously low price next! (Hopefully a newer one that had a head on collision with low miles... I don't need the front end. LOL!

Tresa took some pictures when I arrived home with my first part: The VW front beam assembly. (She thought this was like having my first born! LOL! Glad she did.)

OK... As usual, back to work here

Best to you all... 

(PS: I'll post some more photos when I can get more work done on the full size mock-up.)

Richard


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## Moltenmetal (Mar 20, 2014)

You've barely started, and you have an EV grin already!

Looking forward to your build greatly...!


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## Jarel Design (Jul 2, 2015)

* EV GRIN????

Holey smokes, my tail has been wagging since I first began! It's only been getting better ("worse"?) ever since!

I can't sleep.
I don't eat (that's a switch!).

All I can do is think, talk, dream etc, all focused on this hybrid project!

Even funnier: I drive a full size truck, but when I drive our Honda, I'm driving this trike! I look for lights changing so I can "regen" for a longer period, I gently press on the go-pedal. I imagine the silence of driving in EV mode. 

ALL my "spare time" is spent researching for this project... I have read hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of threads...

The latest is choosing and finding a center loaded rack and pinion to use with this very different front end and researching getting an OEM DOT approved windshield cut to fit this design.

Attaching a drawing of where the front VW beam is going design and engineering-wise. The top is stock. The bottom is what I'm planning. (This was before discovering the advantages of using a center loaded rack & pinion unit.) I NEVER imagined so much went into designing a stable, well mannered steering system!  

Thanks for the support!

I may not visit here often for a while, but know that this project is being worked on every day, in one form or another! 


Richard*


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

Hi Richard
My old Lancia Beta had a rack where the two steering outputs came from the middle - not the ends
I think the old Hillman Imps had the same layout










Not a good image but you can see the center rubber with the holes for the very long steering rods


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## Jarel Design (Jul 2, 2015)

Hi Duncan! Long time no see (my fault not visiting here more often)...

THAT is exactly what I'm looking for... Found a lot of them already (Older GM units... Most of them so far are power steering units... I "think" I can de-power them... something I learned about on the Locost website, except I've only seen them doing end loaded racks... I'll go back (when I have time), and ask about a center loaded rack.

The strategy is to get the output to the tie rods, as far to center as possible to minimize angle changes while steering and during suspension travel. Trying to avoid all "bump-steering" if at all possible.

OK... again, back to work here... 

(no more robots! This one is an action figure! (MUCH easier and less stressful!)

Hey, more news:

I was chosen to be interviewed for an upcoming History Channel show on inventors and prototype designers/developers! First time for me in FRONT of the camera, usually, I'm behind the camera operating remote controlled spaceships and robotic creatures!)

OK... back to work.

Best,
Richard


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## samwichse (Jan 28, 2012)

2000-2006 Honda insight has a center loaded rack. It's electric power assist, but all you have to do is remove the motor, no hydraulic loops needed. They took great plains to reduce the weight of the rack with aluminum too.

Looks like this:
http://parts.sonshonda.com/products...ml?partner=googlebase_adwords&kwd=&origin=pla

Several cars being parted out over on insightcentral.net


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## Jarel Design (Jul 2, 2015)

thanks samwicse!

I checked it out... most parting out ads are pretty old, but I;ll go check on ebay etc...

Looks like a nice little unit!

Richard


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## samwichse (Jan 28, 2012)

Jarel Design said:


> thanks samwicse!
> 
> I checked it out... most parting out ads are pretty old, but I;ll go check on ebay etc...
> 
> ...


Pretty much anyone parting out a car will have the rack left over... never heard of one needing replacement.


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## Jarel Design (Jul 2, 2015)

You're right! It never hurts to ask!!!

I'm just tired... really exhausted. I've had 2 days off in over 2 months and doing 12+ hrs per day...

I should be following one of my favorite quotes:

You get 100%... of what you_ don't_ ask for!



I'll write them when I get back from LA.

Thanks!

Richard


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## Jarel Design (Jul 2, 2015)

*Re: Building!*

Holey Smokes! It seems like it's been a month or more since I've been back!

By any chance, was this website down? I've been trying to bring it up on my computer but couldn't bring it up! (I have a lot of other problems on it... switching all data to a new computer). I've been trying for what seems like weeks and today, it came up on my laptop! Emailed the link to my desk computer and here I am!

I made a major score and was able to strip down a Mazda Miata of every part I could think of to transfer, modify etc... Besides the seats, dashboard, instruments, door handles, latches etc... All for only $200!

Yesterday, I visited a motorcycle scrapyard and making plans to get the ICE and rear wheel/tire (automotive).

I started building a full size mock-up in wood as suggested by several books and most of the members over on the locost frame building forum. I had to rebuild the main roll bar and may have to again.

I've been searching for a DOT approved windshield. I don't want a flat one and I learned that cutting a per-formed one was next to impossible and even if they were successful, it would lose the DOT rating. After researching on line for possible donor cars, I drove all over town explaining to dealers and owners I found in parking lots, what I was doing, asking to measure and photograph their windshields. (already went through that searching for headlights and tail lights! LOL!) 

I have three more cars to locate: Scion I-Q, Fiat 500 and Fiat Palio. So far, the Smart electric fits (barely). I'd have to rebuild my roll bar again to extend the top out 1 1/2" on both sides.

I build a sprung mock up of the pedal box (third pedal is the clutch for the Kawasaki ICE unit.) The gas and brake pedal will eventually be engineered/designed to co-operate the EV drive unit. I have those mentally figured out, but have to solidify the concepts.

Planing on traveling to Sacramento next weekend to visit EVmetro and talk with him about some of what I'm doing and check out his incredible work in person. Really looking forward to that!

Leaving now to go visit the local Scion dealership and measure the IQ...

SO glad to be back here! I was scared that this website was down, but kind of figured it had something to do with my computers... although three computers (mine) and one (Tresa's) couldn't bring up this site!

Attaching some photos of the wood mock up build.

Best,
Richard


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## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

Cool woodwork!


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## Jarel Design (Jul 2, 2015)

Thanks!

Going to be a whole different story transitioning to steel frame! 

Looking forward to meeting next weekend. Are we still on?

If so and you can email me your address, I'll mapqwest you so we know where we're going.

Just got back from the Scion dealership. No IQ's for almost 2 years! Need to go back to the auto glass shop and see if they have the measurements. The Carrera dealership (that carried the Fiat), did go out of business. The local Dodge dealership now carries the Fiat, so I'll be going there tomorrow as well as back to the Motorcycle Salvage yard to give them the final specs on the rear wheel/tire set up.

Just fed the rabbits, Tresa's in Bend visiting her son, so I'm on my own for dinner and taking care of the animals.

Until next time...

Richard

PS: Was this website down? Or was it just my computers?


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## ken will (Dec 19, 2009)

*Re: Building!*



Jarel Design said:


> I've been searching for a DOT approved windshield. I don't want a flat one and I learned that cutting a per-formed one was next to impossible and even if they were successful, it would lose the DOT rating.


Have you considered using a rear window for your windshield?
Some older cars had smaller curved rear windows that might be the right size.


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## Jarel Design (Jul 2, 2015)

Thanks Ken!

That's a GREAT idea! 

In the back of my mind I had been considering it but didn't know if rear auto windows were made the same way (I guess they are now that I think about it...)

I'm still going back to the glass shop to ask about the Scion IQ windshield measurements (They were really excited about my project and VERY helpful), I'll confirm the idea of using a rear window for a forward windshield with them.

Thanks for bringing this up as an alternative!

Best,

Richard


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## Jarel Design (Jul 2, 2015)

PS:

Now I remember why I wasn't looking at rear glass... Many have those imbedded defroster wires in them (long, horizontal, thin brown heating elements)... Not all, but enough that I stopped looking...

I'll start looking again!



Richard


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## Jarel Design (Jul 2, 2015)

After weeks of searching internet and visiting dealers and stopping car owners in parking lots, I finally found a DOT approved windshield that will fit my design at 48" width at base and enough height to slope the windshield back for aerodynamic considerations...

Ironically, It's from a Smart EV!!!

I wanted the DOT approval for safety considerations regarding deer strikes (a LOT of deer on the roads here and I still remember (VIVIDLY), hitting a deer on the freeway a few years back!

I'm also closer to finding the donor rear wheel. Also weeks of internet searches for specific details, mostly finding a size of motorcycle rim that I can have an automobile tire mounted to. I know of one (500cc), but I'd like the donor wheel to come from a larger bike for strength and larger.stronger braking capabilities. I've refined the final donor possibility list down to about 7 bikes. Planning a second visit to the local motorcycle salvage yard and share with the owner (VERY knowledgeable!), and rummaging through his inventory.

Getting excited about completing the wood mock up, transferring the measurements to the new drawings and begin the actual steel tubular frame! 

That's it for now!

Richard


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## Jarel Design (Jul 2, 2015)

Finally decided on a windshield. It's definitely going to come from a Smart EV. it will fit perfectly!

Also just got back from a road trip to Sacramento to visit EVMETRO (bob).

WOW! After following his build threads, the photos don't even come close to showing his skill, ingenuity and craftsmanship! You really have to see his work in person to get the full depth of his creations! AND, he's a really great guy all the way around!

He took us for a ride in both his blue and white GEO Metros... WOW!!!!! incredible and totally surprising performance! Unexpected from such visually understated vehicles! Watching his systems in action left me drooling!

THANK YOU BOB! 

After sharing more about what I had planned with him, it looks like I may be upping the voltage and motor size once again! (More research!) He shared that he was building up his business both as a distributor for components and conversion services. (His Cadillac project blew me away!). I will be going to him to hire him to finalize/connect and program my EV system and I will be buying my prats from him.

Can't tell you just how comfortable I became trusting his expertise. He really listened to me regarding my goals and was so creative in exploring different ways to achieve exactly what I am hoping for (performance-wise).

Again! Thank you Bob! 

Note: This was my FIRST time ever, driving in an EV!!! My excitement for this project was boosted back up to an all time high! Can't wait for my project to be completed!

OK, back to work here... What a great weekend!

Richard

(Took some photos I'll post later.... PRISTINE workmanship!)


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## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

Thanks for stopping by! Hope you had a good trip back up north.


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## Jarel Design (Jul 2, 2015)

Thank YOU for inviting and having us!

We talked about our visit with you all the way home! Tresa is absolutely excited about driving "our" vehicle to work! Pretty sure she will talk with the powers that be at her school district about providing an EV charging station! LOL!

She was equally amazed with her experience driving in your car! (as I was!)

=D

Thank you again so much!

Richard


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## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

I know we did not have a lot of time to discuss your proposed drive train, but I got to thinking about it after you headed back up north. If I remember right, you had the electric motor placed between the motorcycle ICE and transmission unit and the drive wheel. I think this might pose a problem where the electric motor will not be able to benefit from the gearing from the transmission, and would essentially make the electric motor a direct drive set up, when the motorcycle transmission is in neutral and you are running electric only mode. If this is the case, you would need to be running a lot more motor than you would if you were taking advantage of a transmission. There is some great information here on the forum if you search for "direct drive" threads. These direct drive threads can give you a great understanding of the problems that you will face using the proposed set up.


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## Jarel Design (Jul 2, 2015)

Laughing here!

I was JUST researching larger motors! (Looking at the AC-20 and the AC-35. I had planned on having a direct drive between the EV motor and the drive wheel, but using the internal ICE motorcycle transmission only for the ICE drive source...

Once again, I am totally open to explore the possibilities... I "think" I want to stick with the direct drive between EV motor and wheel, Not sure how I would incorporate a second transmission, but all things are possible! REALLY looking at the drag of turning the ICE transmission while in EV mode as well as the drag of regenerative capabilities of the EV motor while in ICE drive mode... LOTS MORE TO EXPLORE! 

Again, starting from scratch with motor selection and drive train set up. LOL! 



Thank you so much!!!!

I'll be on line researching possibilities and product availability and application before coming up with any more questions.

Best,
Richard

PS: Even considering fabricating some sort of switchable drive train "jack-box" to isolate the two.


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## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

Jarel Design said:


> Laughing here!
> 
> I was JUST researching larger motors! (Looking at the AC-20 and the AC-35. I had planned on having a direct drive between the EV motor and the drive wheel, but using the internal ICE motorcycle transmission only for the ICE drive source...


If you get some reading done of direct drive threads, you can get a better idea of what size motor you will need if you go that route. The direct drive factor will probably dictate a motor that is larger than what you are looking at.


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## Jarel Design (Jul 2, 2015)

Thanks! I had no idea!

I can totally understand as I research on direct drives, what motors they're using and why... compared with using a transmission...

I'm really considering how to incorporate a separate transmission for both ICE and EV as a viable option... Just never considered it before so I need to read more... Could even mean a different ICE (Which might also be a great way to bring in a small, more efficient diesel! Which was suggested way back when I first started (not sure if it was here or over at the locost car site.)

Boy! Sounds like I'm starting from scratch again! LOL! (Thank god I love learning and research! LOL!)

Richard


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## Jarel Design (Jul 2, 2015)

Just a quickie here, Going to go explore MC rim and Auto tire mounting at the tire dealer and visit the motorcycle salvage yard to find the "new" rim as well as hopefully get a couple of mc clutches to experiment with a new design: 2-speed transmission for the EV motor to tie into and disconnect when in Pure ICE mode as well as totally disconnect the EV motor from the ICE when in pure EV mode. 

Lots more to share (Been on locustUSA.com as well as other sites), searching for DOT windshield, rims, tires etc.... Still been at this more hours per day than I'd like to admit! LOL!

But for now, here's the first concept drawing for the EV 2-speed transmission and ways to connect/disconnect the ICE from the EV motor...

I'll be back with more updates.

PS: Here's the link to my main build thread over at LocostUSA.com:

http://www.locostusa.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=36&t=17509

Same as here... starting off knowing nothing and working my way up. Just like here at this site, there were many more threads started asking questions about frame building, suspension geometry, steering, etc... but this thread has been my main thread over there. It will give you some idea of what I've been up to when I haven't been here! LOL!

OK... gotta run!

Richard


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## Jarel Design (Jul 2, 2015)

*Re: Great Update!*

I've been spending a lot of time over at the locost web site working on solving the EV motor to jack-shaft, transmission, clutch challenge...

Lots of twists and turns but eventually landed a great solution provided by one of the members:

Using a Harley Davidson transmission! 

They are separate from the engine. Gears rotate in their own, separate, oil bath.

This transmission will provide 4 to 5 gears/speeds which gives me tons of flexibility to keep the EV motor running in in it's most efficient rpm range for any given mph. (This will answer a lot of concerns regarding starting from a stop and hill climbing in EV mode.)

I can use a "dry" clutch (Meaning that clutch sits outside the transmission which makes it a LOT easier to run a chain from my EV motor to the transmission input).

TONS of torque capacity, so I won't be over-taxing the clutch plates or the internal gears.

Weight is about 25lbs and I can still remove some of the case flanges and kick starter that won't be used.

Transmission cases come with two flat mounting plates for bolt-on (simple installation and alignment)!

Best of all, I've found quite a few on E bay for under $400!!! (As I had designed my original 2-speed jack-shat, the two Ducati "dry" clutches alone would have cost $400 and I'd still have a lot of modifying to do to them as well as fabricating a more complex jack-shaft system.)

Still have some research on different years, models, gear ratios etc... But it looks like this part of my design challenge has been solved (In more ways than one!)

OK... lots to do here.

Best,

Richard


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## Jarel Design (Jul 2, 2015)

*Re: 5-speed EV motor transmission! =D*

Hi Guys, it's been a while...

Still doing TONS of research including working with a motor performance calculator... Had to choose between the AC-20 and the higher torque AC-23...

All of my recent research has been focused on creating a multi-speed transmission while staring at the complex design I had previously created and wanting something better. Well, my drive train has evolved!!! 

The final EV motor drive system has been solved by incorporating a '90 '99 Harley Davidson 5-speed transmission! (I had a lot to learn about this subject... Posted a thread on the Harley Davidson Forum. I also had a long talk with the service manager at our local HD dealership. Research mostly focused on adapting a "dry clutch" (Stock was "wet clutch" and machining the back of the clutch to reduce the heavy flywheel and creating an adapter to accommodate a motorcycle chain to connect the EV motor to this transmission... SOLVED! 

So with this new transmission design, it looks like the "final" motor choice will be the AC-20 on 108 volts. (Oh my, how I've moved up from 48 volts/DC! LOL!)

Not only will this transmission provide the gearing range I need for stop and go traffic, but will end up drawing fewer amps while hill climbing as well! (Still have to go back and figure out all the different sprocket sizes to accommodate both the EV motor and the ICE, but that's just a matter of time before I get it dialed in.

I'll have the freedom to isolate the ICE from the EV motor whenever I want. I can also run the HD transmission in neutral while using the ICE. This will give me a wide gearing range for starting from a stop in EV mode to shifting up for higher speeds while keeping the motor in the "sweet/efficiency rpm" range. I'll also be able to control what rpm the EV motor will be spinning when regenerating!

To help simplify things in the "cockpit", I'll be bringing both transmission controls up front, underneath the center console. Both shifters are sequential (in line movement), so I plan to design a tilting gear shift lever to run in two separate slots. One for EV and one for ICE.

OK... been building the solar heaters for our home (been below freezing here at night and I just cringe ($$$), whenever I hear our central heat turn on! Each of the two solar heaters I'm building will only use about 48 watts! 

Tresa and I will be teaching our 2nd self sustainability class tonight and we're speaking with another organization about doing a presentation for them next spring... (So much going on here!)

Also planning our Thanksgiving menu... So far: slow smoked goat roast, fried rabbit and tons of home grown vegetables and potatoes (Our experimental "Tater Towers" was a huge success! We now have a bumper crop that should last through the winter!

OK... enough for now...

Posting a diagram of the new drive train with the HD 5-speed, our "tater towers", and part of our potato harvest...

(I'll be on line searching for used HD 5-speed transmissions! LOL!)

If I'm not back before then, here's wishing everyone a Happy Thanksgiving!

Richard


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