# [EVDL] Why charge at home doesn't work!!



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Ron, you make a good argument for standard battery shapes, but 90%
of Americans drive less than 39 miles daily total. So 10% need battery
swapping or fast charging. the others all need a reasonable outlet (Similar
in power capability to a modern electric range: 240 v. @ 50 A. ) Several
companies install power pylons with locking cover security which can be
installed at Condo or Apartment parking lot. Sure you might have to pay $2k
to install the outlet, but if you are buying a $30K to $100K Electric it
isn't beyond your capability. the swap system contract is not free either.
If you are one of the high mileage daily drivers another fuel alternative
in a hybrid may be more appropriate. Personally I find my 10 miles on
Interstate and 2 miles on each end on city streets, is well within the
battery range capability of my lead sled. And when we take the monthly trip
to club meetings (170 Miles round trip) we drive our hybrid.
(With conversion to "Plug-In" we go the first 45 miles on electric. All in
today's technology. and at home charging, as long as we don't use both the
kitchen range and the electric dryer and recharge at all the same time .(any
two out of three on at a time is OK).*
*Regards,
Dennis Lee Miles (Director) E.V.T.I. inc.
**www.E-V-T-I-Inc.COM** (New ! )
Phone (863) 944 - 9913
EV service mechs need training!
We want them to REALLY UNDERSTAND: EV Systems, Operation and Technology.*
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++



> ron doctors <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> > Having read patently the emails about why battery exchange is not needed I
> > thought I should give a response.
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

You're making some really worst case assumptions:
50kWh is more like 200 to 300 mile range, most 100 mile range cars
used 20 to 30kWh battery packs.

Were do you get the information that 100A service is the most common?
Around here 200A seems more common from my casual observation.

Most people drive only ~40 miles per day, no need to fill up 50kWhr per day.

Yup, 30A on 230V is pretty much the standard for recharging commercial
EVs and very common also with conversions.

Your argument for the case of battery swapping is hard to take
seriously when your data is so flawed.

Not saying battery swapping doesn't have a place but to claim that the
charge at home crowd is holding back EVs is just ludicrous!





> ron doctors <[email protected]xx> wrote:
> > Having read patently the emails about why battery exchange is not needed I
> > thought I should give a response.
> > Here are the reasons why charging at home won't work even assuming *you h=
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

This is what I exactly did, I had the power company install a charging 
station in our parking lot. Install one 50 amp 250 volt receptacle and ten 
20 amp 125 volt receptacles for the other vehicles that use them for engine 
heat back in 1976 for free.

In 34 years, I never discharge my battery pack below 50% SOC which is about 
27kwr from a 54kwr pack which is about 39.5 miles. I am now running a 
44kwr pack that I have never took below 80% SOC yet or about 8.8kwr.

Even at 27kwr, it only took 2hrs and 45 minutes at 50 amps at 250 volts. 
Today, I am doing very short 1 mile trips which I charge at the end of each 
trip at 25 amps at 240 volts which only takes between 5 and 7.5 minutes.

Roland


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Dennis Miles" <[email protected]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Saturday, March 20, 2010 2:57 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Why charge at home doesn't work!!


> *Ron, you make a good argument for standard battery shapes, but 90%
> of Americans drive less than 39 miles daily total. So 10% need battery
> swapping or fast charging. the others all need a reasonable outlet 
> (Similar
> in power capability to a modern electric range: 240 v. @ 50 A. ) Several
> companies install power pylons with locking cover security which can be
> installed at Condo or Apartment parking lot. Sure you might have to pay 
> $2k
> to install the outlet, but if you are buying a $30K to $100K Electric it
> isn't beyond your capability. the swap system contract is not free either.
> If you are one of the high mileage daily drivers another fuel alternative
> in a hybrid may be more appropriate. Personally I find my 10 miles on
> Interstate and 2 miles on each end on city streets, is well within the
> battery range capability of my lead sled. And when we take the monthly 
> trip
> to club meetings (170 Miles round trip) we drive our hybrid.
> (With conversion to "Plug-In" we go the first 45 miles on electric. All in
> today's technology. and at home charging, as long as we don't use both the
> kitchen range and the electric dryer and recharge at all the same time 
> .(any
> two out of three on at a time is OK).*
> *Regards,
> Dennis Lee Miles (Director) E.V.T.I. inc.
> **www.E-V-T-I-Inc.COM** (New ! )
> Phone (863) 944 - 9913
> EV service mechs need training!
> We want them to REALLY UNDERSTAND: EV Systems, Operation and Technology.*
> ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
>
>


> ron doctors <[email protected]> wrote:
> >
> > > Having read patently the emails about why battery exchange is not needed
> > > I
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

gm volt says 40 miles range
only uses 8Kwh of the 16KwH Li battery
5 miles per KwH

your figures are way off. also read abt newer Li technology
we are getting way more power dense batteries sooner than later
Batt exchange good for forklift or bus MAYBE




________________________________
From: Peter Gabrielsson <[email protected]>
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <[email protected]>
Sent: Sat, March 20, 2010 6:22:43 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Why charge at home doesn't work!!

You're making some really worst case assumptions:
50kWh is more like 200 to 300 mile range, most 100 mile range cars
used 20 to 30kWh battery packs.

Were do you get the information that 100A service is the most common?
Around here 200A seems more common from my casual observation.

Most people drive only ~40 miles per day, no need to fill up 50kWhr per day.

Yup, 30A on 230V is pretty much the standard for recharging commercial
EVs and very common also with conversions.

Your argument for the case of battery swapping is hard to take
seriously when your data is so flawed.

Not saying battery swapping doesn't have a place but to claim that the
charge at home crowd is holding back EVs is just ludicrous!





> ron doctors <[email protected]> wrote:
> > Having read patently the emails about why battery exchange is not needed I
> > thought I should give a response.
> > Here are the reasons why charging at home won't work even assuming *you h=
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

My house only has a 100 amp service, but it also uses natural gas for
heating, dryer, etc. (it's also 40 years old). I had no problem having
a 240V/50A receptacle installed at my driveway.

On 3/20/10, robert winfield <[email protected]> wrote:
> gm volt says 40 miles range
> only uses 8Kwh of the 16KwH Li battery
> 5 miles per KwH
>
> your figures are way off. also read abt newer Li technology
> we are getting way more power dense batteries sooner than later
> Batt exchange good for forklift or bus MAYBE
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: Peter Gabrielsson <[email protected]>
> To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <[email protected]>
> Sent: Sat, March 20, 2010 6:22:43 PM
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Why charge at home doesn't work!!
>
> You're making some really worst case assumptions:
> 50kWh is more like 200 to 300 mile range, most 100 mile range cars
> used 20 to 30kWh battery packs.
>
> Were do you get the information that 100A service is the most common?
> Around here 200A seems more common from my casual observation.
>
> Most people drive only ~40 miles per day, no need to fill up 50kWhr per d=
ay.
>
> Yup, 30A on 230V is pretty much the standard for recharging commercial
> EVs and very common also with conversions.
>
> Your argument for the case of battery swapping is hard to take
> seriously when your data is so flawed.
>
> Not saying battery swapping doesn't have a place but to claim that the
> charge at home crowd is holding back EVs is just ludicrous!
>
>
>
>


> ron doctors <[email protected]> wrote:
> >> Having read patently the emails about why battery exchange is not needed=
> I
> >> thought I should give a response.
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

You're grasping at straws and making completely inaccurate statements in
order to support your swapping dream. Why don't you talk to all the Tesla
Roadster owners who are living with a 53kwh 240 mile battery pack. They
have no problem charging overnight at home. Your idea of how far people
drive in a day is wrong, your idea of how many miles a 50kwh pack is capable
of is wrong, your statement that most people only have 100 amp service is
wrong, and your concept of how long it takes to charge a pack is wrong. 
It's also much too early to try for a standard battery pack, if that will
even ever be feasible. The reason being that different chemistries need
different cooling, heating, management, and can use different
configurations. Forcing everyone into a standard package will likely stifle
development, not help it. We have no idea what the batteries will be like 5
years from now or what form factor will be ideal. Also, different vehicles
will have different pack needs. As has been pointed out before, the whole
swapping infrastructure and an inventory of extra batteries on hand will add
a large cost to EV's across the board. Think of a busy gas station, how may
hundreds of cars go through there in a day? Now imagine trying to store
enough extra packs on site to service even a fraction of all those cars for
swapping.
I'm sorry but you seem to have lost all rational thought with your swapping
obsession. Very few people who actually own an EV now are interested in
swapping, that should tell you something.




> themotorman wrote:
> >
> > Having read patently the emails about why battery exchange is not needed I
> > thought I should give a response......
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Hi Ron,

By your reasoning, nobody would be able to run an Airconditioner either.

Case closed,

Cor van de Water
Director HW & Systems Architecture Group
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
Email: [email protected] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [email protected]
Tel: +1 408 383 7626 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Tel: +91 (040)23117400 x203 XoIP: +31877841130

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On
Behalf Of ron doctors
Sent: Sunday, March 21, 2010 2:29 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: [EVDL] Why charge at home doesn't work!!

Having read patently the emails about why battery exchange is not needed
I thought I should give a response.
Here are the reasons why charging at home won't work even assuming *you
have batteries that can be quickly recharged.:*

1. Most poeple do not have enough power to be able to charge a 50 KwHr
pack overnight let alone in a few wours.. 50 Kwhr is a very minimal
energy amount and no where near that stored in an average gas tank, it
is about that needed for a small car with a 100 mile range. The average
homes have 100 A max limit breakers so that is 23000 Kw max . To fully
charge a dead battery in two hours would mean running it at 100 amps.
That is an impressive charger and very heavy cables.. Not really
practical , even with 8 hours that is about 7 Kw running all night long
and a 30 amp supply on 230 volts.
At 120 that would be 60 amps!!
Sure for a local use car using 8-10 Kwhrs/day then home charging would
work and would be about the same as a golf cart.. so that means the
average user will end up with 2 cars a gas car for distances more than
40 miles and an electric local car. This doesn't get us to the next
level of "real" car use a way to use an electric for any distance,
without limits . Battery exchange is the only way to achieve this.
2. If you live anywhere where you cannot access a 230 volt supply you
simply cannot charge your ecar.. Apartment dwellers and town houses
etc...Also where multiple cars are in one home.. imagine juggling the
charging cords all through the night!

Charging a car at home is about the same as expecting to have a gas
refilling station in the driveway..When gas cars first came out users
had to carry extra gas and also often had a tank or two at home. Not
what we do today!!
Battery exchange is not chasing a problem that will go away, it is
offering a solution to a problem that exists. Batteries do not need to
be owned by the car driver or even sold with a new car, you buy the car
and buy power as electricity when you need it.

Another point that is not been made here yet is that the total Kwhrs of
batteries needed is less for a battery exchange system than for charge
at home /work/charging station systems. This is because the batteries in
the ecars can be much smaller with a battery exchange system, the ecar
weight total is less and are therefore more efficient and use less
electricity a totally more green solution. This includes the batteries
held at the exchange stations, please remember this is the* total
battery* Kwhrs *not *total number of batteries. Every Kwhr of batteries
takes valuable resources to first make it and then recycle so less is
best. Battery exchange is win win situation.. As has already been
mentioned if we did not standardize on A, AA C and D cells think what a
mess we would be in now! Even your car 12 volt battery comes in a few
standard sizes.

Those who support charge at home or at charging stations are holding
back ecar development and also making it very hard for new smaller car
companies or home builders to exist. A standard battery pack solves many
of the ecar challenges and it will happen..
ron

--
When all else fails, remember failure is the success of knowing what not
to do.
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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Cor

Very funny... I love Charging at home.... Beats having to stop at any kind of station!!!!

Doug
Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry

-----Original Message-----
From: "Cor van de Water" <[email protected]>
Date: Sat, 20 Mar 2010 18:44:51 
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List<[email protected]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Why charge at home doesn't work!!

Hi Ron,

By your reasoning, nobody would be able to run an Airconditioner either.

Case closed,

Cor van de Water
Director HW & Systems Architecture Group
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
Email: [email protected] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [email protected]
Tel: +1 408 383 7626 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Tel: +91 (040)23117400 x203 XoIP: +31877841130

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On
Behalf Of ron doctors
Sent: Sunday, March 21, 2010 2:29 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: [EVDL] Why charge at home doesn't work!!

Having read patently the emails about why battery exchange is not needed
I thought I should give a response.
Here are the reasons why charging at home won't work even assuming *you
have batteries that can be quickly recharged.:*

1. Most poeple do not have enough power to be able to charge a 50 KwHr
pack overnight let alone in a few wours.. 50 Kwhr is a very minimal
energy amount and no where near that stored in an average gas tank, it
is about that needed for a small car with a 100 mile range. The average
homes have 100 A max limit breakers so that is 23000 Kw max . To fully
charge a dead battery in two hours would mean running it at 100 amps.
That is an impressive charger and very heavy cables.. Not really
practical , even with 8 hours that is about 7 Kw running all night long
and a 30 amp supply on 230 volts.
At 120 that would be 60 amps!!
Sure for a local use car using 8-10 Kwhrs/day then home charging would
work and would be about the same as a golf cart.. so that means the
average user will end up with 2 cars a gas car for distances more than
40 miles and an electric local car. This doesn't get us to the next
level of "real" car use a way to use an electric for any distance,
without limits . Battery exchange is the only way to achieve this.
2. If you live anywhere where you cannot access a 230 volt supply you
simply cannot charge your ecar.. Apartment dwellers and town houses
etc...Also where multiple cars are in one home.. imagine juggling the
charging cords all through the night!

Charging a car at home is about the same as expecting to have a gas
refilling station in the driveway..When gas cars first came out users
had to carry extra gas and also often had a tank or two at home. Not
what we do today!!
Battery exchange is not chasing a problem that will go away, it is
offering a solution to a problem that exists. Batteries do not need to
be owned by the car driver or even sold with a new car, you buy the car
and buy power as electricity when you need it.

Another point that is not been made here yet is that the total Kwhrs of
batteries needed is less for a battery exchange system than for charge
at home /work/charging station systems. This is because the batteries in
the ecars can be much smaller with a battery exchange system, the ecar
weight total is less and are therefore more efficient and use less
electricity a totally more green solution. This includes the batteries
held at the exchange stations, please remember this is the* total
battery* Kwhrs *not *total number of batteries. Every Kwhr of batteries
takes valuable resources to first make it and then recycle so less is
best. Battery exchange is win win situation.. As has already been
mentioned if we did not standardize on A, AA C and D cells think what a
mess we would be in now! Even your car 12 volt battery comes in a few
standard sizes.

Those who support charge at home or at charging stations are holding
back ecar development and also making it very hard for new smaller car
companies or home builders to exist. A standard battery pack solves many
of the ecar challenges and it will happen..
ron

--
When all else fails, remember failure is the success of knowing what not
to do.
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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> On 20 Mar 2010 at 17:20, someone wrote:
> 
> > you seem to have lost
> > all rational thought with your swapping obsession.
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

The individual is posting flat out lies about EV's as most of us here have
been pointing out repeatedly. Either he knows he's lying or he's not
thinking rationally. Sorry, but I was actually showing restraint in my
comment. I'm used to playing in a less constrained sandbox, you should see
how we go at it on DIY sometimes. Spirited discussion is not the antithesis
of intelligent debate, but factual misstatements are. 




> David Roden wrote:
> >
> > On 20 Mar 2010 at 17:20, someone wrote:
> >
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

I have to say that this coin has two sides.

Most of us who have driven 100 000 miles with EVs or more KNOW how fun
and simple it is to plug it in. The nightly magic fills the "tank".
Ahh ! What could be better ?

We have to admit that we have not experienced the life with the
another option. 100 000 mile driving with swappable batteries. How fun
that might be ? We can just keep guessing.

I've seen good implementation of battery swapping in full EV town
buses and forklifts. It's not impossible. Absolutely opposite. Very
useful IF you need the vehicle to go around the town 24/7 or there's
just minutes between the shift changes.

As I see it this is not the best solution for main traction battery
for my EVs. BUT.. I could use a 10 gallon sized swappable 30 kWh
'can'. Disposable if you wish.. I could see them collected, crushed
and sent to Iceland for recycling. 99,9 % material recovery in
recycling, CO2 free and extremely cheap energy....Next stop..
la-la-land 

-akkuJukka



2010/3/21 AMPhibian <[email protected]>:
>
> The individual is posting flat out lies about EV's as most of us here have
> been pointing out repeatedly. Either he knows he's lying or he's not
> thinking rationally. Sorry, but I was actually showing restraint in my
> comment. I'm used to playing in a less constrained sandbox, you should=
see
> how we go at it on DIY sometimes. Spirited discussion is not the antit=
hesis
> of intelligent debate, but factual misstatements are.
>
>


> > David Roden wrote:
> >>
> >> On 20 Mar 2010 at 17:20, someone wrote:
> >>
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

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c3RpbmZvL2V2Cgo=


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

That's funny Evan.

Even if Rainer was crazy and pulling of a scam.. there might be some
idea in his plans... Sometimes the craziest ideas have some inspiring
twists for us.

IF this kind of technology could be there for us.. why not ?

I've heard they put ~10 kWh of energy in a liter of Diesel nowadays 

Seriously. Small power over say 10 hours would still be charging the
main traction pack. Gensets are used in PHEVs. I would love to see
some other option for that added range.

How dense could zinc-air cells be stacked ? ~500 Wh/kg, 1500 Wh/l..
4Gal =3D> ~22 kWh.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zinc-air_battery

Was it too far fetched ?

That additional set would weight ~50 kg. That's completely liftable to
trunk for me. Split it in two and even the flimsy guys can use it.

-akkuJukka


2010/3/22 Evan Tuer <[email protected]>:
> 2010/3/21 Jukka J=E4rvinen <[email protected]>:
>
>>
>> As I see it this is not the best solution for main traction battery
>> for my EVs. BUT.. I could use a 10 gallon sized swappable 30 kWh
>> 'can'. Disposable if you wish.. I could see them collected, crushed
>> and sent to Iceland for recycling. 99,9 % material recovery in
>> recycling, CO2 free and extremely cheap energy....Next stop..
>> la-la-land 
>
> "Europositron" are still on the go huh?
>
> _______________________________________________
> General support: http://evdl.org/help/
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>
>



-- =

http://www.google.com/profiles/jarviju#about

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

If you are willing to go with "mechanically recharged primary cells"
such as zinc air (electric-fuel.com) then swapping is the way to go.
Electric-Fuel says they are getting 200 wh/kg in fleets, but you need
to have a fleet for practical recycling/rebuilding of the expended
cells.

There is a promising looking Lithium-air in the works.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lithium_air_battery
The wiki page says they expect a practical specific energy of 1000
wh/kg (15% of the theoretical max)

I could see having a car that home charged most of the time, and had
a space to put a single use range extender Li-air pack. If the
interstate rest/fuel stops sold extenders packs, you could get
anywhere you wanted to go, as long as your main pack could get you to
the first rest area.

Of course the gas pusher trailer can do that now.

Mike-

2010/3/22 Jukka J=E4rvinen <[email protected]>:
>  That's funny Evan.
>
> Even if Rainer was crazy and pulling of a scam.. there might be some
> idea in his plans... Sometimes the craziest ideas have some inspiring
> twists for us.
>
> IF this kind of technology could be there for us.. why not ?
>
> I've heard they put ~10 kWh of energy in a liter of Diesel nowadays 
>
> Seriously. Small power over say 10 hours would still be charging the
> main traction pack. Gensets are used in PHEVs. I would love to see
> some other option for that added range.
>
> How dense could zinc-air cells be stacked ? ~500 Wh/kg, 1500 Wh/l..
> 4Gal =3D> ~22 kWh.
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zinc-air_battery
>
> Was it too far fetched ?
>
> That additional set would weight ~50 kg. That's completely liftable to
> trunk for me. Split it in two and even the flimsy guys can use it.
>
> -akkuJukka
>
>
> 2010/3/22 Evan Tuer <[email protected]>:
>> 2010/3/21 Jukka J=E4rvinen <[email protected]>:
>>
>>>
>>> As I see it this is not the best solution for main traction battery
>>> for my EVs. BUT.. I could use a 10 gallon sized swappable 30 kWh
>>> 'can'. Disposable if you wish.. I could see them collected, crushed
>>> and sent to Iceland for recycling. 99,9 % material recovery in
>>> recycling, CO2 free and extremely cheap energy....Next stop..
>>> la-la-land 
>>
>> "Europositron" are still on the go huh?
>>
>> _______________________________________________
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>>
>
>
>
> --
> http://www.google.com/profiles/jarviju#about
>
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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

I have read all the replies to Rons original post and I'm afraid, in 
principle, I agree with him and disagree with some of the content of 
some of the replies. I know you all feel strongly about this issue so 
please don't flame me (like you did Ron) when you read this! 
Basically it boils down to this...

Most people in the developed world have a home electrical supply 
capable of providing 50A @ 240V on top of other requirements during 
the night which, for the sake of argument gives you a night recharge 
capability of:- 8 (hrs, say) x 240 (V) x 50 (A) = 100kWh. Day rate 
may be less due to other demands on the supply esp for dwelling 
heating and cooling... and maybe 4 times or more as expensive!

Based on the slippery and diminutive Tesla Roadster that keeps 
cropping up (as I suppose it might as it is the only example of a 
'real' car that you can actually buy) that charge is good for 500 
miles, apparently. But at what speed?... And how much less slippery 
and diminutive is the average vehicle on the roads (let alone the 
average US vehicle)? Well, my little electric van conversion does 
about 300wH/mile at - and heres the important bit - 50 mph. It has a 
fairly large frontal area at 22sqFt (2m2) and is very un-areodynamic. 
So, say a much more normal vehicle gets 200Wh/mile at 50mph. Well, 
with at 100kWh pack, that's a range of - well I'll be! - 500 miles! 
(100000 (wH) / 200 (Wh/mile)).

But who the hec-ty-do does 50mph on a long drive these days? 70 mph 
is a much more likely speed and, as we all know (don't we?) the 
increase in power required for any given vehicle driving at 70 mph 
compared to 50 mph doubles. So your range is back down to 250 miles - 
except it isn't of course because air con or heating and a host of 
other demands plus the 80% max pack discharge for pack longevity 
reduces the range further still, perhaps as much as down to 150 
miles. Oh dear.

Next, let's assume we have a battery pack capable of doing 400 miles 
on a charge - why on earth would we want to carry around all that 
extra battery capacity weight for the 90% of the time we are not 
needing it? What a waste of energy. The same argument can be 
levelled at hybrids - all that weight of engine, cooling system, fuel 
system, exhaust etc etc it mal all add up to 150kg! - and this is why 
it really peaves me that people (especially on this EV forum) keep 
banging on about hybrids - like the Volt. They are not EVs - they are 
ICE'ed vehicles that in a sly and conniving way are trying to maintain 
Big Oils grip on our lives and bleeding us all dry with their 
omnipotent lust for power and riches. Perhaps they are running the 
EVDL too? Ok, maybe not.

So, to recap, even if we had battery packs that had enough capacity to 
give a good long range in a small and light enough lump to fit in a 
standard vehicle (which we don't - yet) - we haven't got the power at 
home to charge them.

Then, even if you had the power to charge a big pack overnight, what 
about the sudden long trip requirement? Doh!

Sorry, we need the battery swap facility or EVs are just not going to 
get into the mainstream until some whizzo energy storage tech comes 
along to replace fossil fuels.

Regards, Martin Winlow
Herts, UK
http://www.evalbum.com/2092
www.winlow.co.uk


>

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Evan,

I think you missed this bit in my post...

"Next, let's assume we have a battery pack capable of doing 400 miles
on a charge - why on earth would we want to carry around all that
extra battery capacity weight for the 90% of the time we are not
needing it? What a waste of energy. "

... and I agree with you entirely but the point I was making referred 
to EVs being adopted by the majority of car drivers. Without the 
flexibility that fossil-fueled vehicles have, EVs (and NOT hybrids - 
even plug-in ones) will not make it to the mainstream. The battery- 
swap concept is the only one that allows that flexibility - with 
technology as it is now.

Regards, MW.




> Evan Tuer wrote:
> 
> > On Tue, Mar 23, 2010 at 10:14 AM, Martin WINLOW
> > <[email protected]> wrote:
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Here's a slightly crazed thought. Why just fast charge? Why exchange the 
battery? Exchange the entire car!

It's a carsharing plan, an extension of the station car scheme tried in CA 
some years back. 

When your battery starts to go flat, you pull into a charging station and 
drive out with a freshly charged EV. If by chance you need to haul some 
lumber home from the lumberyard that day, you can drive out in a pickup 
truck instead, for an extra charge billed to your account. Or if you're 
going on holiday, you can borrow a minivan for the weekend.

Sure, there are some downsides. 

For one, if you like to carry your life round in your car with you, 
transferring stuff to a different car is a hassle, especially for a big 
family. This can be mitigated a bit by limiiting it to physical goods; your 
personal vehicle profile (seat position, radio settings, and the like) can 
go with your account and be programmed in at the station (or even be on a 
smart fob in your pocket).

For another, it's a substantial tie-up of resources in entire vehicles 
sitting and charging - vs dump banks sitting and charging, or batteries 
sitting and charging. This could hit it in the wallet pretty hard.

On the other hand, you not only get a full "tank," you get a nice clean car 
every few hundred miles (depending on how many times you charge it at home). 
Of course you'd be billed every time you exchanged your car; it would be 
quite a bit cheaper to just charge at home.

I'm sure you can think of more positives and negatives for this scheme. The 
question is, how do they balance out? Is it practical? Maybe ... Mr 
Agassi, are you listening?

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

One benefit to having a much larger pack than normally needed is extended
battery life. Shallow cycling your pack is much better than only having
barely enough pack to get around. Swapping smaller packs will likely lead
to early cell death since they will be drained more deeply on a regular
basis, and since people won't "own" their packs they won't care. This will
of course lead to further increased costs for EV's as packs will need to be
replaced more often.




> Evan Tuer wrote:
> >
> > On Tue, Mar 23, 2010 at 11:21 AM, Martin WINLOW
> > <[email protected]> wrote:
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Gentlemen, (And Ladies)
I have monitored many interesting discussions on this list, and like
David, I read every post, as I find lots of time by not watching shows like
"The Bachelor" or "America's Next 'Whatever'," This gives me a couple of
hours every day.
And almost every day I make a "Positive Comment" here on EVDL.
Today's Positive Comment follows:
I'll warn you that I have not personally tried this as yet, but. I did part
of it.
Why not put a large battery pack (Twice as big as the EV pack ) in a trailer
and pull it behind the EV on planned longer trips, perhaps extending range
from 50 to 125 miles ?
Most common argument I get is that they don't know how to pull a trailer.
(Takes 20 minutes to learn.) Or just cannot back a trailer up. (Requires
hand-eye coordination, 15 minutes to learn.) and I built a friend an adapter
for his utility trailer that reduced "Backing-up" skills required to "NONE"
(Contact me off list and I'll explain that $35.00 attachment.)
If the double battery pack doesn't appeal, put a range extending generator
powered by a small diesel in the trailer.
Or don't modify the car at all, put the electric drive train motor and all
in the trailer and operate it by wire remote from the driver's location and
just idle any petrol fueled vehicle and let the electric "Pusher" shove you
down the road at 100 miles per gallon as a "Hooked - on Hybrid" It should be
as wide as the towing/er?/pushed vehicle and the height should be low enough
to see over and past and minimize air friction. This gives a instant hybrid
from any vehicle you want to drive, and is easily transferable to another
vehicle.
"There are many Alternatives."
Regards,
Dennis Lee Miles (Director) E.V.T.I. inc.
www.E-V-T-I-Inc.COM (New ! )
Phone (863) 944 - 9913
EV service mechs need training!
We want them to REALLY UNDERSTAND: EV Systems, Operation and Technology.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++


> AMPhibian <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> >
> > One benefit to having a much larger pack than normally needed is extended
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> EVDL Administrator wrote:
> 
> > Here's a slightly crazed thought. Why just fast charge? Why
> > exchange the
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Martin WINLOW <[email protected]>wrote:
> 
> > I have read all the replies to Rons original post and I'm afraid, in
> > principle, I agree with him and disagree with some of the content of
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

>But who the hec-ty-do does 50mph on a long drive these days? 70 mph is a
much more likely speed and, as we all 
>know (don't we?) the increase in power required for any given vehicle
driving at 70 mph compared to 50 mph 
>doubles. So your range is back down to 250 miles - except it isn't of
course because air con or heating and a 
>host of other demands plus the 80% max pack discharge for pack longevity
reduces the range further still, 
>perhaps as much as down to 150 miles. Oh dear.

I fail to see how 250 miles range at 70mph becomes 150 miles range because
you decided to turn your aircon on.
Given 100kwh, that's 28kw cont (or ~22.4kw at the battery, given round trip
efficiency of 80% I have measured for LiFePO4).
Range down to 150miles would mean an increase of ~15kw cont.
That's a *big* increase.

The 80% only affects actual battery capacity, not local grid recharge
capacity (from which the 100kwh figure comes from).

Also, is your 240v single phase?
I thought that would be 3-phase in the US (meaning 240v 50A = ~21kVA)

The powerpoint in my own garage is 415v 32A (also ~22kVA incidentally)

That pushes 8 hour charge to 176kVAh or 176kwh if you have a perfectly PF
corrected charger.

Matt



-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf
Of Martin WINLOW
Sent: Tuesday, 23 March 2010 7:15 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Why charge at home doesn't work!!

I have read all the replies to Rons original post and I'm afraid, in
principle, I agree with him and disagree with some of the content of some of
the replies. I know you all feel strongly about this issue so 
please don't flame me (like you did Ron) when you read this! 
Basically it boils down to this...

Most people in the developed world have a home electrical supply capable of
providing 50A @ 240V on top of other requirements during the night which,
for the sake of argument gives you a night recharge capability of:- 8 (hrs,
say) x 240 (V) x 50 (A) = 100kWh. Day rate may be less due to other demands
on the supply esp for dwelling heating and cooling... and maybe 4 times or
more as expensive!

Based on the slippery and diminutive Tesla Roadster that keeps cropping up
(as I suppose it might as it is the only example of a 'real' car that you
can actually buy) that charge is good for 500 miles, apparently. But at
what speed?... And how much less slippery and diminutive is the average
vehicle on the roads (let alone the average US vehicle)? Well, my little
electric van conversion does about 300wH/mile at - and heres the important
bit - 50 mph. It has a fairly large frontal area at 22sqFt (2m2) and is
very un-areodynamic. 
So, say a much more normal vehicle gets 200Wh/mile at 50mph. Well, with at
100kWh pack, that's a range of - well I'll be! - 500 miles! 
(100000 (wH) / 200 (Wh/mile)).

But who the hec-ty-do does 50mph on a long drive these days? 70 mph is a
much more likely speed and, as we all know (don't we?) the increase in power
required for any given vehicle driving at 70 mph compared to 50 mph doubles.
So your range is back down to 250 miles - except it isn't of course because
air con or heating and a host of other demands plus the 80% max pack
discharge for pack longevity reduces the range further still, perhaps as
much as down to 150 miles. Oh dear.

Next, let's assume we have a battery pack capable of doing 400 miles on a
charge - why on earth would we want to carry around all that extra battery
capacity weight for the 90% of the time we are not needing it? What a waste
of energy. The same argument can be levelled at hybrids - all that weight
of engine, cooling system, fuel system, exhaust etc etc it mal all add up to
150kg! - and this is why it really peaves me that people (especially on this
EV forum) keep banging on about hybrids - like the Volt. They are not EVs -
they are ICE'ed vehicles that in a sly and conniving way are trying to
maintain Big Oils grip on our lives and bleeding us all dry with their
omnipotent lust for power and riches. Perhaps they are running the EVDL too?
Ok, maybe not.

So, to recap, even if we had battery packs that had enough capacity to give
a good long range in a small and light enough lump to fit in a standard
vehicle (which we don't - yet) - we haven't got the power at home to charge
them.

Then, even if you had the power to charge a big pack overnight, what about
the sudden long trip requirement? Doh!

Sorry, we need the battery swap facility or EVs are just not going to get
into the mainstream until some whizzo energy storage tech comes along to
replace fossil fuels.

Regards, Martin Winlow
Herts, UK
http://www.evalbum.com/2092
www.winlow.co.uk


>

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Matt Lacey wrote:
> 
> > I fail to see how 250 miles range at 70mph becomes 150 miles
> > range because you decided to turn your aircon on.
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

ok, put up shut up time
keep a diary for the next 90 days
every day record daily miles and reset trip meter
how often you need drive 500 miles, 400 miles?
100 miles?
have someone, not me, centrally keep data
(havent large govt agencies already done this?) from my fillup excel fil=
e w/230+ fillups
counting long trips i drive 51 miles per day in 1640 days in my prius
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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> On 23 Mar 2010 at 13:36, Dennis Miles wrote:
> 
> > Why not put a large battery pack (Twice as big as the EV pack ) in a
> > trailer and pull it behind the EV on planned longer trips, perhaps
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> AMPhibian wrote:
> 
> > One benefit to having a much larger pack than normally needed
> > is extended battery life. Shallow cycling your pack is much
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Roger Stockton <[email protected]>wrote:
> 
> >
> >
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Martin WINLOW wrote:
> > Most people in the developed world have a home electrical supply
> > capable of providing 50A @ 240V on top of other requirements during
> > the night which, for the sake of argument gives you a night recharge
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

It is well know in racing and is true is most engineering endevours that
if the first 80% of capability costs you x the next 10% costs you 2x the
next 9% costs you 10x - 100x and the last 1% costs you 1000x.

We really have to stop dismissing the bottom 80% because the top 2% is
not practical for Ev's or the power grid. (costs too much to fix)

Use the right tool for the right job. This means use the EV that does
charge overnight with no problem on that bottom 80% and you will still
have and be able to afford using fossil fuels for that last 20% (Not to
mention the plastic cases for the batteries)

While not everyone is into EV's for the smog reasons, it was one of my
motivators. It was the short drives (<8miles) back and forth to work
everyday that irritated me. It is what the ICE is extreamly bad at. "it
stinks, literally". I also live in a valley that inherits alot of it's
smog from the neighboring coastal towns.

The ICE is also not good at torque from zero rpm, so helping that middle
to upper% of the playing field with a hybrid is a good idea, even if it
adds to complexity.
Obviously on the bottom end of the niche, hybrid is a waste.
Now we are starting to talk about a plug in hybrid. Some people need
this as a stepping stone to pure electric; they are not yet ready to let
go of the marketing hype. You know it, the unwritten rule that says you
must be able to drive 300 miles, fill in 3 min and drive another 300
miles. It is the same marketing hype that says there must be a new model
every year and the value of your car drops in half every year becasue of
this. (would we tolerate this from our computer, airplanes, tractors,
cell phones?)

Anyway, I have driven about 10K miles a year for 5 years with the
smallest PFC charger Rich makes. It could run 240V and my AGMS's would
probably appreciate a charge greater than 4A, but I never got around to
installing the plug.

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Bill rarely ever says something I would disagree with, but doesn't the
drag depend on the weight on those wheels?
2 more wheels and 1/10 the EV's weight is not the same as towing 1/2 of
another EV.

This would make the range extending battery trailer a waste but not a
lightweight gen-trailer

???

> Trailers put two more wheels on the ground. They add about 50% more
> drag to the vehicle. It takes a lot of extra energy to simply pull the
> trailer along.
>
> This is why battery trailers and generator trailers are not such a
> good idea in practice.
>
> Bill D.

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Jeff Shanab wrote:
> > miles. It is the same marketing hype that says there must be a new model
> > every year and the value of your car drops in half every year becasue of
> > this. (would we tolerate this from our computer, airplanes, tractors,
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Roger Stockton wrote:
> >
> > AMPhibian wrote:
> >
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Lousy?
Phones are released when there are new features, -- The point is
there is not a 2009 model and a 2010 model (mine is 4 years old)
Computers are released when there are new features. -- Again I do
not have a 2006 computer. That is when I bought it, but it is a
particular bus speed, processor etc.
any of which I can update within the same chassis.

Admittedly and probably because of the features, there are lots of
releases.

Airplanes and tractors and even the home built PC are often updated.

I just meant that the car manufactures have pushed it to the limit. even
if they have nothing new to offer, they will bump the annual model and
make a big tado about it and the values reflect that.


> > Jeff Shanab wrote:
> >
> >> > miles. It is the same marketing hype that says there must be a new model
> >> > every year and the value of your car drops in half every year becasue of
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Jeff;

I would really be interested in hearing more details on your batteries
and charging techniques.
Sounds like you're getting good life, ~ 5 years out of your AGM's.

- Size of Pack ?
- Make of AGM, Model, Ah rating ?
- Miles traveled and appox DOD before charging ?
- Time it takes to charge ? 

Based on what I was told from Enersys, I was forced into the 240V
charger to hit my Odyssey 1750's with ~ 25 amps in the 1st phase of
charging. I was hoping to stay with the 110V charger, but they balked at
the Warranty unless I conformed to their recommendations.


Dennis 
Elsberry, MO 
http://www.evalbum.com/1366 




-----Original Message-----
From: Jeff Shanab [mailto:[email protected]] 
Sent: Wednesday, March 24, 2010 9:46 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Why charge at home doesn't work!!


Anyway, I have driven about 10K miles a year for 5 years with the
smallest PFC charger Rich makes. It could run 240V and my AGMS's would
probably appreciate a charge greater than 4A, but I never got around to
installing the plug.



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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> AMPhibian wrote:
> 
> > Quite easily avoided by slightly undercharging the pack,
> > which also extends life cycles. Not an issue for lithium.
> ...


----------

