# Re: [EVDL] Batteries -- connecting the dots!



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Batteries -- connecting the dots!*



> On Friday 20 February 2009 03:33 am, James Massey wrote:
> > At 06:45 PM 20/02/09, Tom wrote:
> > >How much should I allow for swelling?
> > About 1/4" per battery for plate batteries should be fine.
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Batteries -- connecting the dots!*

Hello Tom,

The type of battery makes a difference in installing configuration which may 
allow for the batteries be place tight together and how the links are 
install.

I use to have 2 volt cells that was place 1/4 inch apart with 1/4 inch 
plastic spacers place down about 1/4 inch from the top surface of the 
battery. The cells where then press fitted together.

A potting compound was then pour in this 1/4 inch space around each cell 
casing. The large traction type batteries are still built like this today. 
See the U.S. Battery . com site at the large 6 and 8 volt 300 ah batteries 
for this type of cell installation.

To connect these cells, you then solder-weld on each lead link that is about 
1/2 inch thick by 1.5 inches wide.

The next battery I use was the Exide Xp 235 AH 6 volt battery that had the 
offset battery post. The offset post was position so we can now use 
straight line link connections. To install the straight line links, you 
place the first battery with the negative post at one end and the next 
battery positive post at the same end with the long sides of the battery 
place tight together.

The reason you can place this battery and some batteries tight together, is 
that the top cover protrudes past the bottom wall of the battery case. 
Therefore when you install them tight together, the battery cases will 
actually be from 1/4 to 3/8 of a inch apart.

The later batteries for some reason, move there post or post offsets where I 
cannot use my straight line connections any longer with a battery that uses 
a filler cap and automatic watering system. The filler cap is right in line 
with the post, so now I have to use the diagonal.

The diagonal link which is 5 inches long is shorter than the straight line 
lick with is 7.25 inch long.

If you use a copper buss bar, it should be several small layers stack 
together so it will flex if your batteries tops are the same size as the 
battery case. This buss bar should have a slight bend in it, not a straight 
bar connection.

The next problem is oxidation of the link and the raw copper to lead 
connection. In electrical work, we do not allow unlike metals become in 
contact with each other. We install a bi-metal connection to install 
aluminum to copper or to any other unlike metal.

The copper buss ends should be coat with lead. This is done by stacking the 
sheets of copper strips together that will be equal to the volume of a 2/0 
to 4/0 copper wire.

Drill a hole at the ends for connection to the batteries. The battery post 
should be the large L-post for this type of connection. It is not recommend 
to use the stud type of post because I have a lot of these turn in the post.

To applied the lead to the ends, first immerse the ends of the buss bars 
into a tinning solution that you can get from a welding shop that is use for 
all metals.

Next immerse the ends in a pot of liquid hot lead that is melted to 333 
degrees F.

The problem is the center portion of the buss bars that are left expose. 
You can either let them be expose, and they will turn green and will look 
like fungus is growing on them. If you install a heavy heat shrink tubing 
with the sealant in it, this will stiffen it up to much where you do not 
have the flexibility any longer.

I would recommended 2/0 to 4/0 welding wire links that has up to 1000 wires 
per link. Crimp on a zinc plated battery clamp for a post connection or a 
zinc plated spade terminal for the small or large post connection.

Even with the zinc to lead connection you will still get some corrosion. 
After about a year, you will see that the surface of the zinc will be plated 
with the lead. Sometimes this may be ok if you maintain a constant torque 
rating of the connection or other wise it will de-plate the zinc. I use a 
gold plated battery clamp and have no problem for the last 7 years using the 
same connection on the same batteries.

Roland

http://go-ev.net


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "sanfranman12" <[email protected]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, February 19, 2009 11:45 PM
Subject: [EVDL] Batteries -- connecting the dots!


>
> Hi, Everyone.
>
> Another newbie here. First, thanks to each of you who have patiently
> answered questions from people like myself. You guys rock! I'm not sure
> you understand that for each person who posts a question, there are scores
> and scores of silent readers like me that devour the knowledge that you 
> pass
> on. Thanks!
>
> But now to my stupid questions. I have ordered the Optima D31T's for my
> conversion and have started thinking ahead about how I am going to connect
> them. I'm a little bit ahead of myself, because I'm still working on the
> racks at the moment, but so be it.
>
> 1. I see that the vast majority of the conversions use 2/0 cable. Why is
> that? Wouldn't it be easier to use 1 inch wide copper plate, as I have 
> seen
> others suggest? It looks like that lends itself to a very easy
> installation.
>
> 2. If I use copper plate, is 1/16" thick sufficient? Or do I need 1/8"
> thick if I go that route?
>
> 3. In most installations, I see that the batteries are lined up in the 
> same
> orientation and then the cables are run diagonally to connect the positive
> terminal to the negative terminal of the adjoining battery. Why are most
> people doing it that way? Wouldn't it be easier to alternate the
> orientations of the batteries so that there would be a very short 
> horizontal
> connection between the terminals of adjacent batteries? I'm thinking that
> you have discovered something that I don't realize that makes it easier to
> install the cables diagonally across the top. Or, I'm an Einstein! Nah,
> probably the former.
>
> 4. I saw information that the racks should be designed to allow for some
> swelling of the batteries. Does that include the Optima AGM batteries? 
> How
> much should I allow for swelling?
>
> 5. What other things am I going to discover when I go to wire the 
> batteries
> that I will never think of when I am plotting this thing out in my head?
>
> Many thanks.
>
> Tom
> http://www.nabble.com/file/p22116183/1%2BMini%2BT%2B%2526%2BMe%2B-%2Breduced.jpg
> -- 
> View this message in context: 
> http://www.nabble.com/Batteries----connecting-the-dots%21-tp22116183p22116183.html
> Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at 
> Nabble.com.
>
> _______________________________________________
> General EVDL support: http://evdl.org/help/
> Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
> Archives: http://evdl.org/archive/
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>
> 

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Batteries -- connecting the dots!*



> sanfranman12 wrote:
> > I'm not sure you understand that for each person who posts a question,
> > there are scores and scores of silent readers like me that devour the
> > knowledge that you pass on.
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Batteries -- connecting the dots!*



> Randy Kramer wrote:
> > On Friday 20 February 2009 03:33 am, James Massey wrote:
> >> At 06:45 PM 20/02/09, Tom wrote:
> >>> How much should I allow for swelling?
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Batteries -- connecting the dots!*



> On Friday 20 February 2009 01:32 pm, Lee Hart wrote:
> > Randy Kramer wrote:
> > > Just to clarify, I presume you mean 1/4" per cell?
> >
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Batteries -- connecting the dots!*



> Sanfranman12 wrote:
> 
> > 1. I see that the vast majority of the conversions use 2/0
> > cable. Why is that? Wouldn't it be easier to use 1 inch
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Batteries -- connecting the dots!*

:

Hello Tom,

The copper buss ends should be coated with lead. This is done by stacking 
the 
sheets of copper strips together that will be equal to the volume of a 2/0 
to 4/0 copper wire. ((not volume, but cross sectional area))

Drill a hole at the ends for connection to the batteries. The battery post 
should be the large L-post for this type of connection. It is not recommend 
to use the stud type of post because I have a lot of these turn in the post.

To apply the lead to the ends, first immerse the ends of the buss bars 
into a tinning solution that you can get from a welding shop that is used 
for 
all metals.(( not tinning, but "Flux." is the liquid. ))

Next immerse the ends in a pot of liquid hot lead that is melted to 333 
degrees F.((This is too cold, Solder melts at 360 to 425 F depending upon 
mixture , Lead melts at 650 F minimum. These are not simple work for a 
neophyte, crimped on lugs on welding cable is much easier and safer ! ))


Roland

To do the work of fabricating laminated copper buss bars is an unnecessary 
skill set for battery interconnects. Crimped connectors on welding wire is 
much simpler and just as effective. And yes in the years since 1962 when I 
embarked on my electrical and electronic career, I have built laminated copper 
buss bars and a heck of a lot of other stuff too. How many miles of 5,000 
ampere copper or aluminum cabling have you installed? Seriously Roland, 
that is why I am establishing a serious vocational school for EV Technicians 
here in Central Florida I also believe as I think you do that EV is our best 
hope for the Future !.



**************A Good Credit Score is 700 or Above. See yours in just 2 easy 
steps! 
(http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/100126575x1218822736x1201267884/aol?redir=http:%2F%2Fwww.freecreditreport.com%2Fpm%2Fdefault.aspx%3Fsc%3D668072%26hmpgID
%3D62%26bcd%3DfebemailfooterNO62)
_______________________________________________
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Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Batteries -- connecting the dots!*

The bottle of tinning solution says Tinning Flux on it. It is use for all 
metals and it's looks like water. The low melting silver solder is the one 
that starts to melt at 333 degrees. There is also a low melting aluminum 
solder that I have use to weld aluminum support blocks on a paper thin 
aluminum radiator.

This low melting silver solder can weld stainless steel to a etch piece of 
glass.

I started my electrical apprentice ship in 1944 and have install up to 3000 
amp buss lines and hundred of miles of overhead lines and substations.

Roland


----- Original Message ----- 
From: <[email protected]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, February 20, 2009 8:36 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Batteries -- connecting the dots!


>
>
>
> :
>
> Hello Tom,
>
> The copper buss ends should be coated with lead. This is done by 
> stacking
> the
> sheets of copper strips together that will be equal to the volume of a 
> 2/0
> to 4/0 copper wire. ((not volume, but cross sectional area))
>
> Drill a hole at the ends for connection to the batteries. The battery 
> post
> should be the large L-post for this type of connection. It is not 
> recommend
> to use the stud type of post because I have a lot of these turn in the 
> post.
>
> To apply the lead to the ends, first immerse the ends of the buss bars
> into a tinning solution that you can get from a welding shop that is used
> for
> all metals.(( not tinning, but "Flux." is the liquid. ))
>
> Next immerse the ends in a pot of liquid hot lead that is melted to 333
> degrees F.((This is too cold, Solder melts at 360 to 425 F depending upon
> mixture , Lead melts at 650 F minimum. These are not simple work for a
> neophyte, crimped on lugs on welding cable is much easier and safer ! ))
>
>
> Roland
>
> To do the work of fabricating laminated copper buss bars is an 
> unnecessary
> skill set for battery interconnects. Crimped connectors on welding wire 
> is
> much simpler and just as effective. And yes in the years since 1962 when 
> I
> embarked on my electrical and electronic career, I have built laminated 
> copper
> buss bars and a heck of a lot of other stuff too. How many miles of 
> 5,000
> ampere copper or aluminum cabling have you installed? Seriously 
> Roland,
> that is why I am establishing a serious vocational school for EV 
> Technicians
> here in Central Florida I also believe as I think you do that EV is our 
> best
> hope for the Future !.
>
>
>
> **************A Good Credit Score is 700 or Above. See yours in just 2 
> easy
> steps!
> (http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/100126575x1218822736x1201267884/aol?redir=http:%2F%2Fwww.freecreditreport.com%2Fpm%2Fdefault.aspx%3Fsc%3D668072%26hmpgID
> %3D62%26bcd%3DfebemailfooterNO62)
> _______________________________________________
> General EVDL support: http://evdl.org/help/
> Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
> Archives: http://evdl.org/archive/
> Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>
> 

_______________________________________________
General EVDL support: http://evdl.org/help/
Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
Archives: http://evdl.org/archive/
Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Batteries -- connecting the dots!*

Why is it OK to crimp a zinc-plated lug onto a copper cable, but when using a
copper buss bar it needs to be coated with lead?

I hope I am expressing that in a clear way and that I am following your
procedure correctly. It sounds like you are saying that it is a bad idea to
have copper next to lead, because they are "unlike" metals. But when a
zinc-plated lug is crimped onto a copper cable (actually a bundle of copper
wires), aren't those two unlike metals? Hmmm, maybe I just answered my own
question. Is zinc similar enough to both copper and lead, that it doesn't
cause too much corrosion? In other words, a copper-zinc-lead connection is
okay, whereas a copper-lead connection is not?

By the way, thanks to each and every one of you that replied to my
questions. I learned a lot about connecting batteries and learned how bad
my initial ideas were! I'm going to start running cables in in three days,
so I feel much better armed than I was a month ago. Thanks everyone!

Tom




The next problem is oxidation of the link and the raw copper to lead 
connection. In electrical work, we do not allow unlike metals become in 
contact with each other. We install a bi-metal connection to install 
aluminum to copper or to any other unlike metal.

The copper buss ends should be coat with lead. This is done by stacking the 
sheets of copper strips together that will be equal to the volume of a 2/0 
to 4/0 copper wire.

Drill a hole at the ends for connection to the batteries. The battery post 
should be the large L-post for this type of connection. It is not recommend 
to use the stud type of post because I have a lot of these turn in the post.

To applied the lead to the ends, first immerse the ends of the buss bars 
into a tinning solution that you can get from a welding shop that is use for 
all metals.

Next immerse the ends in a pot of liquid hot lead that is melted to 333 
degrees F.

The problem is the center portion of the buss bars that are left expose. 
You can either let them be expose, and they will turn green and will look 
like fungus is growing on them. If you install a heavy heat shrink tubing 
with the sealant in it, this will stiffen it up to much where you do not 
have the flexibility any longer.

I would recommended 2/0 to 4/0 welding wire links that has up to 1000 wires 
per link. Crimp on a zinc plated battery clamp for a post connection or a 
zinc plated spade terminal for the small or large post connection.

Even with the zinc to lead connection you will still get some corrosion. 
After about a year, you will see that the surface of the zinc will be plated 
with the lead. Sometimes this may be ok if you maintain a constant torque 
rating of the connection or other wise it will de-plate the zinc. I use a 
gold plated battery clamp and have no problem for the last 7 years using the 
same connection on the same batteries.

Roland
-- 
View this message in context: http://www.nabble.com/Batteries----connecting-the-dots%21-tp22116183p22852645.html
Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

_______________________________________________
General EVDL support: http://evdl.org/help/
Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
Archives: http://evdl.org/archive/
Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Batteries -- connecting the dots!*



> sanfranman12 wrote:
> > Why is it OK to crimp a zinc-plated lug onto a copper cable, but when using a
> > copper buss bar it needs to be coated with lead?
> 
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Batteries -- connecting the dots!*

So it sounds like it would be better to solder the copper cable into the lugs
instead of crimping them in, correct? Then why is the standard procedure to
crimp them? Probably ease and cost, huh?

And I suppose if you get a good crimp, there is not much room between the
copper and the lead to get moisture, and hence, corrosion.

Tom





> sanfranman12 wrote:
> > Why is it OK to crimp a zinc-plated lug onto a copper cable, but when
> > using a
> > copper buss bar it needs to be coated with lead?
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Batteries -- connecting the dots!*



> sanfranman12 wrote:
> > So it sounds like it would be better to solder the copper cable into the lugs
> > instead of crimping them in, correct? Then why is the standard procedure to
> > crimp them? Probably ease and cost, huh?
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Batteries -- connecting the dots!*

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bi9saXN0aW5mby9ldgoK


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Batteries -- connecting the dots!*



> > sanfranman12 wrote:
> >> So it sounds like it would be better to solder the copper cable into
> >> the lugs
> >> instead of crimping them in, correct? Then why is the standard
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Batteries -- connecting the dots!*

If you are soldering, you don't want to move the parts being soldered
while they cool.



> Robert Johnston <[email protected]> wrote:
> > On Thu, Apr 2, 2009 at 18:14, Lee Hart <[email protected]> wrote:
> >> sanfranman12 wrote:
> >>> So it sounds like it would be better to solder the copper cable into th=
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Batteries -- connecting the dots!*



> On 3 Apr 2009 at 2:03, Bob Rice wrote:
> 
> > Ya NEED a Acthetilene(sp?) torch, or at least a "plumbers Tank" as
> > theyt are called here? You won't LIVE long enough to heat up a terminal or
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Batteries -- connecting the dots!*

Hi everyone,

I really appreciate all this - I converted a VW bus mostly using info from
this list. Like most of our vehicles, my vehicle is constantly evolving. I
am running 84V (14 x T-105) and a Curtis 1244 sepex controller which I limit
the current to 450. I have some questions:

1) I am experiencing some unwanted heat at my battery terminals, so I want
to switch from my copper bus bars to 2/0 cable. Can I solder on copper
terminals? Is there any reason to use copper terminals?

2) I used a stainless lock washer between the bar and the nut, but should I
use any washers of any type with the cables?

3) Believe it or not, I still have about 3" of aluminum bus bars on my
fuse/contactor board. It doesn't seem to get hot, but is this costing me
some efficiency?

Thanks, Joel
-- 
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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Batteries -- connecting the dots!*

Question #1, you will be better off with a flexible cable than a rigid
busbar.

#2. You should probably use a (stainless) flat washer between the lock
washer and the busbar. And don't put anything stainless between the busbar
and the battery terminal.

But more importantly, what kind of posts do you have on the batteries?



> jgentleman <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> >
> > Hi everyone,
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Batteries -- connecting the dots!*

Joel, From reading your post I noticed you said you are using stainless steel
washers between your posts and your bus bars. This might be where you are
generating heat. Try a Bass washer or none insted, I think someone posted
recently about stainless not conducting as well as Brass, which could
generate heat.

Maybe someone could pipe in on this, also a washer and lockwasher on the
other side of the bus bar should be ok, with no heat build up from the
stainless right?

Soren





> jgentleman wrote:
> >
> > Hi everyone,
> >
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Batteries -- connecting the dots!*

I agree - don't use anything stainless between the bus bar and the terminal.
But, I would also suggest: don't put anything at all ( except, perhaps,
some grease) between the bus bar and terminal. A washer or spacer of any
kind would add to the total resistance with one addition interface ( as well
as the resistance of the thing itself)
And, if you have some flexibility in your bus bars, you should not
necessarily change to cables. With cables, there are two more interfaces
per battery ( between the lug and cable) that could add resistance ( and
heat) if not done properly - or, if those connections corrode over time.

Phil Marino



> dave cover <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> > Question #1, you will be better off with a flexible cable than a rigid
> > busbar.
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Batteries -- connecting the dots!*

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "jgentleman" <[email protected]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, April 09, 2009 3:20 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Batteries -- connecting the dots!


>
> Hi everyone,
>
> I really appreciate all this - I converted a VW bus mostly using info from
> this list. Like most of our vehicles, my vehicle is constantly evolving. 
> I
> am running 84V (14 x T-105) and a Curtis 1244 sepex controller which I 
> limit
> the current to 450. I have some questions:
>
> 1) I am experiencing some unwanted heat at my battery terminals, so I want
> to switch from my copper bus bars to 2/0 cable. Can I solder on copper
> terminals? Is there any reason to use copper terminals?
>

Copper welding cable and terminals are the way to go, IMO. I think Lee Hart 
recently posted the pros and cons of soldering versus crimping.


> 2) I used a stainless lock washer between the bar and the nut, but should 
> I
> use any washers of any type with the cables?
>

Depends on the type of post - on regular automotive posts, use a clamp-on 
copper terminal. On other types of posts, others may have a better idea than 
I, as I have always used the standard automotive posts.

> 3) Believe it or not, I still have about 3" of aluminum bus bars on my
> fuse/contactor board. It doesn't seem to get hot, but is this costing me
> some efficiency?
>

Probably not enough efficiency loss to worry about, until it corrodes or the 
connections get loose. Keep a real close eye on it, or replace it with 
copper.


> Thanks, Joel

Joseph H. Strubhar

Web: www.gremcoinc.com

E-mail: [email protected] 

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Batteries -- connecting the dots!*

> But more importantly, what kind of posts do you have on the batteries?

I have the threaded stud post with a 9/16 stainless nut. I don't have any
plans to put anything in between the cable (or bar) and the terminal
surface. I would like to keep the bars, but I have some definite hot spots
at a couple of terminals - I don't want to just torque down the nut for fear
of breaking the stainless bolt loose from the lead terminal. The terminals
seem to be clean and tight enough, but maybe 5 or so are hot, usually on the
shorter bars.

Thank you for the responses so far, sorry about the double posting. 

What is the consensus on the short pieces of aluminum bar? 

Thanks, Joel
-- 
View this message in context: http://www.nabble.com/Batteries----connecting-the-dots%21-tp22116183p22981584.html
Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Batteries -- connecting the dots!*

>> what kind of posts do you have on the batteries?



> jgentleman wrote:
> > I have the threaded stud post with a 9/16 stainless nut. I don't
> > have any plans to put anything in between the cable (or bar) and the
> > terminal surface.
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Batteries -- connecting the dots!*

It depends on what kind of battery you have. For lead acid batteries,
where the stud it just stuck into the lead, Lee is right. However, a
threaded stud is standard on batteries designed for highway capable
EV's -- my bank of NiCad's (which have a Chrysler part number for EV
use) uses them, and most the Lithium ones I've seen use some form of
them. The difference being that those are some other sort of metal
than lead (copper or brass, with nickel plating, I believe), so can be
torqued down tight enough.

Z



> Lee Hart <[email protected]> wrote:
> >
> > These 5/16" studs are only intended for light duty use, like the 75 amps
> > that a golf cart draws. They are not adequate for a road-going EV that
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Batteries -- connecting the dots!*

>Aha! There's the reason for your hot battery terminals.

Well, I was afraid of that. I only have the threaded stud and a flat spot
where the automotive terminal would be. I bought the batteries very early
in the project, before any heavy research, and they represent like 75% of
the conversion cost, so replacing them is unlikely right now, darn it.

I will have to just do my best from the recommendations - heavy cable with
soldered terminals and maybe these concave spring washers between the
terminal and nut.

I will probably also limit my current some more, I really only see the high
amps when trying to accelerate in the higher gears. I might have to start
using first gear sometimes..

Thank you so much for the feedback, everyone. Joel
-- 
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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Batteries -- connecting the dots!*

The high auto type post with stud is spec for 95 to 105 in.lbs of torque at 
75 amps, but the post will mushroom at higher ampere causing the stud to 
pull up.

The low profile stud that you see on batteries now, are spec for 75 in.lbs 
but when I got to 75 in.lbs the bolt head started to turn in the post.

Some time ago back in the 70's I saw a different type of post connector for 
the high post with stud. The battery links had a plated brass taper cone 
with a hole on top. It slip over the taper battery post allowing the stud 
to come up.

The cable was fuse right into the side of this cone and one end was coated 
in RED plastic and the other in BLACK. These were costly back then at 
$20.00 a link when the batteries cost $30.00 each.

I had the new Exide X 235 AH 6 volt batteries that came with this type of 
stud, so I made up one of these taper cones and tested it by installing on 
one of the battery post. I was able to torque it up to 15 ft lbs which is 
the maximum torque of a 5/16 inch bolt. The taper cone put side pressure on 
the post which also puts internal pressure on the stud which prevents the 
battery post to mushroom.

I found that in using a standard auto post battery clamp, that the post will 
melt back causing it to become smaller in diameter which we call shrink 
back. This cause the top of the lead post to push out a little out the top.

So I made up 60 of these taper cones out of brass which is about a 1 inch 
diameter and plated them with one of those kits you can get from 
eastwood.com. I did not fuse or solder any links to these cones. I use my 
existing spade type links that had about 1 square inch of surface contact 
which was bolted down on top of the taper cone which had the stud come 
through. I now can torque them to about 15 in.lbs.

Roland


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Zeke Yewdall" <[email protected]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, April 10, 2009 7:29 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Batteries -- connecting the dots!


> It depends on what kind of battery you have. For lead acid batteries,
> where the stud it just stuck into the lead, Lee is right. However, a
> threaded stud is standard on batteries designed for highway capable
> EV's -- my bank of NiCad's (which have a Chrysler part number for EV
> use) uses them, and most the Lithium ones I've seen use some form of
> them. The difference being that those are some other sort of metal
> than lead (copper or brass, with nickel plating, I believe), so can be
> torqued down tight enough.
>
> Z
>
>


> Lee Hart <[email protected]> wrote:
> > >
> > > These 5/16" studs are only intended for light duty use, like the 75 amps
> > > that a golf cart draws. They are not adequate for a road-going EV that
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Batteries -- connecting the dots!*

In my opinion, you are only looking for trouble if you use bus bars.
Bus bars are perfect for batteries that are stationary.
Batteries in an conversion, although fixed in place are not stationary - there will also be some movement.

So, I believe the heat is coming from high resistance due to poor contact.
Besides not using bus bars, I also don't recommend using lock washers.

There are washers with a convex/concave shape. I am attaching some images.

Hope this helps.

--
Navarrete



> ---- jgentleman <[email protected]> wrote:
> >
> > Hi everyone,
> >
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Batteries -- connecting the dots!*

Bellville washers.


>
> There are washers with a convex/concave shape. I am attaching some images.
>
> Hope this helps.
>
> --

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----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Batteries -- connecting the dots!*



> storm connors wrote:
> > Bellville washers.
> 
> Close *Belleville* washers. That might help you find them.
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Batteries -- connecting the dots!*

Note that you still should not send current through washers,
the high-current path should go from the battery terminals
directly to your lugs or clamps or buss bars, watever is 
a low resistance path to transfer the current between the
batteries, either via copper cable or strip.
Any washer *between* battery terminal contact surface and
the cable/strip will not improve but deteriorate contact
and cause hot terminals from the power loss due to
voltage drop in that resistance.

When I connected my battery terminals I used a metal file
to clean the lead surface to shining and also the bronze
connection block, both the flat (flag) terminal surface
as well as the hole for the cable, which was clamped down 
by a bolt - these were re-usable terminals used for grounding.
After putting a bolt with washer under the head through the
battery flag terminal, I used another flat and split washer
under the nut because neither carried current - everything
flowed directly through the 1" square mating surface of the
flag terminal and the connection block.
I then sent a fixed current from an external supply through
the series of terminal - connection block - cable - connection
block and terminal and measured the voltage drop to make sure
that there were no unexpected resistances.
I could not measure the resistance between battery terminal
and connection block, the 1" square surface had too low
resistance to measure at 10 Amp using a millivolt DVM. 
BTW, I did use a little NoAlOx on all contact surfaces before
clamping down.
The NoAlOx did not affect contact resistance, even if I only
hand-tightened the nut of the connection block mating to the
battery terminal, then the resistance was unmeasurable low.

Success,

Cor van de Water
Director HW & Systems Architecture Group
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
Email: [email protected] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [email protected]
Tel: +1 408 383 7626 magicJack: +1 408 844 3932
Tel: +91 (040)23117400 x203 XoIP: +31877841130

Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail.
-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On
Behalf Of Lee Hart
Sent: Saturday, April 11, 2009 5:21 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Batteries -- connecting the dots!



> storm connors wrote:
> > Bellville washers.
> 
> Close *Belleville* washers. That might help you find them.
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Batteries -- connecting the dots!*

Bellville washers can be found at most big box type hardware stores (Home
Depot, Lowe's, Ace,etc) -Thos



> <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> > In my opinion, you are only looking for trouble if you use bus bars.
> > Bus bars are perfect for batteries that are stationary.
> ...


----------

