# New Catalyst Produces Low Cost Hydrogen



## PhantomPholly (Aug 20, 2008)

Highlights:



> For the first time in history, hydrogen fuel can produce more energy during combustion than the energy used to extract the hydrogen from water.


Promising, but still not as attractive as "> 90% of electricity put into a battery can be retrieved as actual work."



> Hydrogen is an energy dense and clean fuel.


... but, not nearly as energy dense as gasoline, and is not in a liquid state at room temperatures - two problems that will likely never be overcome. Contrast that with batteries, for which theory already predicts the ability to exceed gasoline's usable net energy density.



> Using hydrogen to fuel ships is promising because this new process works well with sea water. Low-cost hydrogen can be used to fuel electric power generators on islands or in remote locations where water is plentiful and cheap, compared to the cost of importing oil/diesel via tanker ships.


Wrapping up the article, and thus invoking my pet peeve about "news stories," is the fact that this article omits so much. If "some energy" is used in the conversion, how much? When you add in the additional wear to the engine and alternator for the "lost" energy, how much additional energy does it take (including building engines and alternators) to use this "wonder fuel?"

My cynical take would be that, if they had truly solved theses problems, they would be trumpeting it.

In any event, it doesn't seem like this approach would ever be very useful for automobiles. The aspects demanding "thermal stability" and a "tankless system" imply that the system needs to run continuously, implying a semi-constant production of hydrogen that must either be consumed or dumped overboard. Given the stop-and-go nature of cars, that implies an awful amount of waste. Hydrogen build-up in your garage, anyone?


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## Jason Lattimer (Dec 27, 2008)

This is vaporware. It cannot possibly produce H2 continuously after started with no other fuel input. It violates the laws of physics!


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## PhantomPholly (Aug 20, 2008)

Jason Lattimer said:


> This is vaporware. It cannot possibly produce H2 continuously after started with no other fuel input. It violates the laws of physics!


Yeah, that would be my take also but I'm not smart enough to stake a claim.

More probably they mean that there is some large initial power input followed by a steady input of energy (perhaps to maintain the "stable thermal environment?) - so, like a Sterling Cycle engine perhaps there is a "hot" and a "cold" side of the process. If you read the weasle-wording they are really just saying that they get more energy out than it cost to split the hydrogen from oxygen. Even that sounds like a violation of thermodynamics, just don't know.

Do know that hydrogen storage isn't ready for vehicles yet, and even if they ever succeed at making it "reasonable" I have my doubts that it will compete with batteries in the long term.


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

_For the first time in history, hydrogen fuel can produce more energy during combustion than the energy used to extract the hydrogen from water.

_*That would be a first - perpetual motion anybody**?*_

Hydrogen is an energy dense and clean fuel. _

*Cobblers* - Hydrogen has a very low "Energy Density"

Its not bad for Energy/Mass but its terrible for density - Energy/Volume

OK I should have gone through to the source paper - 
The process is to convert water + aluminium into hydrogen and aluminium oxide

The energy input is oxidizing (burning) the aluminium 

It does not break the laws of physics - but it is not free energy either -
It takes a ton of electricity to make the aluminium in the first place

If the "converter" was nice and light we could see a process where billets of aluminium were the fuel 

Not sure how that works - you need 52gms of Aluminium + 54gms of water to get 6gms of Hydrogen
That is even heavier than a hydrogen tank!

This could be useful - if you had tonnes of spare electricity you could make Aluminium as an energy store - it won't leak away!
But you would get more money selling the Aluminium


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