# wabbling flywheel/coupler



## lowcrawler (Jun 27, 2011)

Netgain warP 9.

So put on the coupler from canEV... it's kind of a 'press fit'. I put some locktight on the set screws and put a little pressure on them. Nothing crazy.

I then put on the adapter plate...

I then mounted the flywheel to the (CanEV) coupler... again, seems pretty 'press fit'. I screwed in the gland nut to hold it on. Before going futher, I wanted to see everything move...

So I hooked it up to a 12V battery. The wabble in the flywheel was so much it made my concrete floor vibrate!

I pulled off the flywheel, rotated it 90 degrees and reinstalled it... wabble again but less. It's more a 'wabble' (like a bad frisbee throw) than an off-balance feeling.I pulled it off and rotated it 90 degrees multiple times and it seems different every time.

I took off the flywheel again and the coupler seems to be out-of-center or otherwise wabbling... but it's hard to see exactly and my 12V was dying...


Any thoughts or possible methods to fix this?


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## Guest (Oct 5, 2011)

I am not keen on CanEV from the get go. I believe they are a taperloc system and those need to be set lightly and then tapped into place to help seat it properly then tighten. Test then reset as needed. However your flywheel and pressure plate should be balanced first. Take a good video of the event. If you have sound keep the sound toned down a bit. A video of the process of installing to your motor would be good too. Good photos will be good as well. 

Pete


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## DavidDymaxion (Dec 1, 2008)

Buy one of these, and look for wobble in your coupler. Remember the size of the flywheel amplifies axial wobbles. I calculated it would take only about 0.007" (7 thousandths of an inch) of off center to create 100 lbs of imbalance force!

http://www.grassrootsev.com has a neat video about machining the adapter right on the motor shaft. This is an awesome idea, as that guarantees the coupler is square to the axis of rotation. I did this to clean up my purchased adapter, and will definitely do my next car that way.

Once everything is square, spin the motor, make sure it doesn't vibrate. Then spin the coupler, and make sure it doesn't vibrate. Have the flywheel and pressure plate balanced at a racing machine shop. Put on the flywheel, and make sure it doesn't vibrate. Then put on the pressure plate, and make sure it doesn't vibrate.

That was a great idea to try different locations for your flywheel (and a good idea for the pressure plate, that helped my car). A John Wayland trick is to move a washer to different bolts to minimize vibration.









http://www.harborfreight.com/1-inch-travel-machinists-dial-indicator-623.html



lowcrawler said:


> Netgain warP 9.
> 
> So put on the coupler from canEV... it's kind of a 'press fit'. I put some locktight on the set screws and put a little pressure on them. Nothing crazy.
> 
> ...


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## lowcrawler (Jun 27, 2011)

gottdi said:


> I believe they are a taperloc system and those need to be set lightly and then tapped into place to help seat it properly then tighten. Test then reset as needed.


This is not true. I have verification from Randy at CanEV - who has been great at responding to my inquiries.


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## lowcrawler (Jun 27, 2011)

DavidDymaxion said:


> Have the flywheel and pressure plate balanced at a racing machine shop.


So, over the course of the past 2-3 weeks, I've called 5 places to finally get the name of a place that will balance a clutch/pressure plate/flywheel assembly. Eventually I found a place.

I brought it there and 3 days later they contacted me and said they can't do it because the hole is too small of a diameter. I asked them if there was anyone else they think might be able to send me to and they said "we _are_ the people other people send people too, I can't think of anyone that would know how to do this"... They did, however, do a bunch of super-tight measurements on everything to ensure flushness, flatness, etc, etc... and said it all looks about perfect. He recommended just giving it a shot...

... which is what I did.


Here is a video of the best I could make it: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U5QXSVhtxa4 Tough to see when it's going fast, but right when it starts up and when it stops you can see the wobble.


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## Guest (Oct 5, 2011)

Ouch, That is a big wobble. Mmmmm. VW right?


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## Guest (Oct 5, 2011)

Trying to get a good photo of the shaft connector for mounting the flywheel. If it's vw based the only thing needing to be balanced is the flywheel and pressure plate. Most any place that can balance brakes can do the job. Something is causing part of the flywheel to not seat properly. I found that not all flywheels are created equal. The stock flywheel is not the same as a stock aftermarket flywheel. Depth of the connection point can cause it to hit bottom premature by just a very very tiny amount which can toss off the flywheel enough to do that.


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## lowcrawler (Jun 27, 2011)

Yes, this will be hooking up to a 1970 VW Bug.


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## Guest (Oct 5, 2011)

By the way, good video.


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## Guest (Oct 5, 2011)

Do you have a photo of coupler?


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## Travdude (May 11, 2009)

The taper lock connection is tricky to get right. 

You have to be very careful tightening the bolts that hold the coupler together. 

The first time I tightened it too much because when I used my torque wrench it would get tight on one side and loose on the other, going around and around, finally breaking one of the bolts.

The second time, I counted turns, every turn or two I would check the run-out, but it never straightened up and I finally ended up breaking one of the bolts again, which slightly warped the edge of the connector. 

The third time, after getting another taper lock hub, I counted turns being very careful not to over-tighten them. This is what finally gave me no run out on the flywheel. It seemed too loose, especially since the motor spins that thing, but I guess that's how the taper lock works, it just locks together with minimal force. Mine has been fine ever since.

Here is what the hub looked like after I had to pry it off before I replaced it with another (kind of embarrassing, ha ha) 










Good luck!


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## Guest (Oct 5, 2011)

He told me his was not a taper lock bushing. I thought it was. My bad.


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## piotrsko (Dec 9, 2007)

my thought: you either bent the motor shaft (not likely) or installed the coupling on crooked or not deep enough. Bug engines are internally balanced, so the flywheel/ clutch / pressure plate doesn't need to be other than balanced for normal operation. loosen up the set screws, and thwang the high spots with a rubber mallet until they look true.

With my Canev adapter, I had to heat the coupler and use a big bolt and nut to get the motor shaft deep enough into the coupler. took forever, and lots of effort. If the flywheel places say the faces are square and true, then it ought to run samely unless there is a monkey in the works.


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## Guest (Oct 6, 2011)

The flywheel is no longer on a bug engine. You need to balance the flywheel and pressure plate for best performance. I am sure you can get away with out doing so for awhile. You really should consider balancing. I agree that the flywheel is not fully secured to the coupler.


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## lowcrawler (Jun 27, 2011)

piotrsko said:


> my thought: you either bent the motor shaft (not likely)


It' is a brand new motor from netgain, just removed from the box. The only pressure i've put on the motor shaft is to help lift it out of the box. I don't imagine that would be enough to bend it. Though, given it's either the coupler, shaft, or flywheel... I'm not ocmpletely ruling that out.



> or installed the coupling on crooked or not deep enough.
> 
> 
> > Possible. I'm going to pull off the coupler and reinstall later tonight.
> ...


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## lowcrawler (Jun 27, 2011)

Travdude said:


> The taper lock connection is tricky to get right


It is not a taper lock. It just presses on and locks in with a set screw.

Here is a video of me putting it on. After this video, I smacked it in with my hand (protected my several laters of cardboard and rubber) until it clearly 'botttomed out'.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hixSrE2t7L8

After I try some reinstalls, I'll report back... Randy at CanEV wants me to do some testing before we try any sort of shipping/swaps.

I'll try to get some more photos for you all as well.


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## Guest (Oct 6, 2011)

The NetGain Motor has different shaft sizes on each end. New ones will be having the same size but that won't be till next year. Rubber Mallet? How about a hammer and a block of wood. Something with less give than the rubber hammer and something you can really tell if its fully seated. No hammer to metal but a good solid block of wood will work. Use the same for the flywheel. Tap solid but you don't need to use it like a sledge hammer. Just be sure it is on solid. 

Pete 

What voltage you going to use and what batteries and controller?


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## lowcrawler (Jun 27, 2011)

Soliton Jr. 48 (150V) 100AH CALB cells.


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## Travdude (May 11, 2009)

Oh, that does slide on, seems better that way.

Carry on..


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## JRoque (Mar 9, 2010)

Hi. It would appear you definitely need to whack that hub adapter in quite a bit more than shown on the video. Otherwise the setscrew will tilt it off center. As mentioned, heating up the hub some will help it seat all the way back in the motor shaft. Using a lubricant/anti-seize might help too.

That type of setscrew actually works by pushing and tilting the hub. It won't be effective unless it has tilted the hub off center. With the hub seated all the way in, the setscrew won't cause too much trouble in this application.

JR


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

Have you verified that your flywheel isn't bent or warped? It turns out mine was the same machinist that made my coupling was able to correct that issue (Randy doesn't carry couplings for saturns).

A dail indicator against the flange of the hub should be able to detect the runout if there is any on the hub, but I don't think the hub if that is indeed the issue. And I agree that in that video the hub is not bottomed out all the way. If you have some high pressure grease (or ideally some never seez), it should help slide it on and prevent it from freezing in place. Mine would not go on all the way when it was new either but it was a perfect fit. 

Being that tight may seem like a nusance, but you certainly want it to be that way since there is no way for the hub to clamp down on the motor in the same way that a taper lock does.


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## piotrsko (Dec 9, 2007)

gottdi said:


> The flywheel is no longer on a bug engine.


You think?

Unlike the 360 B-RB blocks, 440 series, all of the 302 series, and the ENTIRE line 4.3 6 bangers, 400 series GM, there are no external balancing systems added to a VW aircooled flywheel. you balance the crankshaft by either drilling the reciprocating mass or the crankshaft. It matters not which crank bolt goes to which spot on the flywheel. OTOH, I've never pushed a dual port much past 6,000 rpm so I cant say for sure what happens then.


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## dladd (Jun 1, 2011)

After watching that video, I don't think it's the flywheel. It's the coupler to motor interface. Otherwise you would have known it in ICE form. That is not just out of balance a little bit, it's wobbling! ie: not planar.

of course this is an over-the-internet diagnosis, worth every penny.


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## Guest (Oct 7, 2011)

A stock flywheel is pretty well balanced but because of the nature of the electric motor it is a good idea to balance it. Even for a stock VW it is a good thing to balance the flywheel and pressure plate. If the flywheel is out of balance on a stock engine then it will place undue stress on the bearings and will beat the bearings out over time. It is common for the stock bearings to get hammered out in a VW engine. Balance the flywheel. All flywheels should be balanced as well as the crank in any engine. VW Cranks are not balanced well at all. I have had all mine balanced to 8000 rpm. Crank and flywheel/pressure plate. My machinist would do that for me. Made for a smooth running engine. No issues except with the valve springs at those speeds. I made sure my valve springs would hold solid at 7000 rpm. Never took a VW engine beyond 6500 rpm. Stayed within the ratings of what we built. Largest displacement was 1914 and cranks were counter balanced as well. Smooth baby smooth. Electric motors want smooth.

Pete


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## lowcrawler (Jun 27, 2011)

gottdi said:


> A stock flywheel is pretty well balanced but because of the nature of the electric motor it is a good idea to balance it. Even for a stock VW it is a good thing to balance the flywheel and pressure plate. If the flywheel is out of balance on a stock engine then it will place undue stress on the bearings and will beat the bearings out over time. It is common for the stock bearings to get hammered out in a VW engine. Balance the flywheel. All flywheels should be balanced as well as the crank in any engine. VW Cranks are not balanced well at all. I have had all mine balanced to 8000 rpm. Crank and flywheel/pressure plate. My machinist would do that for me. Made for a smooth running engine. No issues except with the valve springs at those speeds. I made sure my valve springs would hold solid at 7000 rpm. Never took a VW engine beyond 6500 rpm. Stayed within the ratings of what we built. Largest displacement was 1914 and cranks were counter balanced as well. Smooth baby smooth. Electric motors want smooth.


No one in this city knows how - and I'm in a big city - Minneapolis. If you have suggestions as to how to find someone that can do it, I'm all ears. But it's extremely frustrating to hear "balance the flywheel at all costs, it's a must" and then not being able to find anyone that actually does the work. I've called 13 places as of right now.


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## lowcrawler (Jun 27, 2011)

Update --

I pulled everything off, remounted the coupler, cleaned it off, remounted a cleaned-off flywheel and much of the wobble is gone (1/64" is left).

It's perfectly 'round' (as judged by putting a stationary item touching it and spinning it... same distance all the way around) however at mid-to-low speed the motor vibrates slightly. This goes away at higher speeds.

Same once I put the clutch disc in and pressure plate on ... vibrates (a little stronger than without the pressure plate) but not too terribly bad.

Given no one here knows how to balance it, I'm going to call it good for now and install it in the transmission until I can find someone to do the work.

One thing that is interesting -- everyone says balance the flywheel and pressure plate (and clutch disc) together. Obviously it needs to actually be ON the motor in order to do this. Do you just bring the entire motor, with everything mounted, and have them do it that way?


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## Fish-N-Fool (Oct 7, 2011)

lowcrawler said:


> Here is a video of the best I could make it: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U5QXSVhtxa4 Tough to see when it's going fast, but right when it starts up and when it stops you can see the wobble.


I would check the motor shaft, I think it's bent and that is why it wobbles.


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## mora (Nov 11, 2009)

I had problems with my first coupler. There is some video evidence about that: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4MFmJybrBXU

With clutch and flywheel attached the vibration was really bad. Yours had minor wobble compared to mine, hehe. I had a local machinist to make me new one. He made the center hole of the coupler a bit cone-shaped. He explained me why it was good to have it that way, I forgot. Installing required a bit of heating of coupler but it went there eventually. It ain't coming off easily and runs true. No vibrations when spun using 12V lead battery.

Stock flywheel was factory balanced or at least it seemed like it was. But when clutch/flywheel assembly was attached to coupler and motor was spun at 12V it made the whole thing vibrate. There was nothing else but clutch/flywheel assembly attached. Coupler even had a centering ring to make sure the pressure plate attaches like it is supposed to. Root of the problem is the heavy flywheel.

Local rally drivers had a dirty and cheap way of balancing flywheels and we tried it too.

- Have your flywheel/clutch assembly mounted on a straight shaft/pipe and allow free rotation. Motor shaft might do but the whole assembly doesn't spin that freely you'd like to.
- Spin the assembly by hand and let it stop rotating. Assembly will likely set in one certain position every time you spin it. You can mark that spot and spin it again to check. This is a heavy spot and is causing imbalance.
- Take angle grinder and cut a really small groove to the outer edge. You could also drill a small hole to take some material off (the factory balancing way).
- Spin again and check for heavy spots. Repeat until there is no heavy spots or you have spent few hours too much. Hehe, it is time consuming.

Don't cut much at once.

This made easily noticeable difference in my EV. No more vibrations.


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## Guest (Oct 7, 2011)

flywheels are reasonably balanced as are the pressure plate. You have wobble. That is not the same as out of balance. You do need to find the source of the wobble. Mine was that the back side of the flywheel was too long by a hair. It caused a wobble too because it would not mate properly to the adaptor plate. The adaptor plate was returned and the problem found and the problem fixed at the manufacturers side. Now all VW flywheels will work. Aftermarket flywheels are not the same as factory stock. Some have slightly different dimensions. Im talking very slight but in some cases enough to make a difference. If connected to an engine there would be no issue but since we use custom adaptor plates and connecting bushings or taper lock bushing and such we run into different issues. Did you take our advice and use something better than the rubber mallet to seat your flywheel? 

Does the coupler wobble on the shaft before you cinch down the set screws? Run your motor without any thing attached. Then just attach the coupler? Then attach the flywheel. Do a quick video showing all these. I am thinking it's not seating to the coupler very well. Your not using any spacer between the flywheel and coupler are you? Did you remove the rubber o ring on the back side of the flywheel? I may not have it installed. You don't need that. Mmmmmm. Interesting. Your flywheel should not wobble. Don't fret about not getting it balanced at this point. Just get the wobble out. Not sure why do you have a VW shop in town or somewhere? BugFormance here can balance a flywheel. Call a brake shop or Speed shop that deals with performance cars.


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## JRoque (Mar 9, 2010)

Hi. I hear NAPA auto parts do balancing work. There are 3 NAPA shops in your area, give them a call and see if they do this: 612-721-5054, 612-827-2561, 763-788-9041.

IMHO, it is unlikely to be the motor shaft. You can test this by removing the coupler and checking the shaft run-out. How the coupler sits on the motor shaft is one possibility or the joint between the coupler and the flywheel is another.

Pete is right in that wobble and imbalance are two different things. What you showed on the video is a bad case of the wobbles. An unbalanced flywheel/clutch will shake the motor even if it appears not to have a wobble and be concentric. Think how your tires are balanced at the shop by adding little weights to the rim. I suppose you can say a wobble is a horizontal force that runs parallel to the shaft while an imbalance runs vertically.

JR


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## lowcrawler (Jun 27, 2011)

Okay - I've got most of the wobble sorted out. I believe it was a combination of poor installation and poor seating of the flywheel to the coupler. It's now off (at the edge of the flywheel) by less than .5mm from the max to the minimum.

However, once I install the clutch disk and pressure plate... it does vibrate.

How does one balance the flywheel, clutch disc and pressure plate 'together' given that you need to then take them apart to connect them to the motor... and when you take them apart and reassemble, thing are going to be 'off' all over again...


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## PTCruisin (Nov 19, 2009)

I've had a similar experience with spinning a flywheel/clutch assembly on a Warp9 motor. The motor has been removed twice now to deal with the vibration of an unbalanced flywheel. I am now considering a milled-down clutchless design since I never used the clutch anyway. You might want to look here for a solution: http://www.evcouplerconnection.com/ I do not work for Charlie or endorse his business, but I am considering using his services.

A cheaper approach is to remove the clutch disc and have it milled down to a smaller diameter (keeping the spring-loaded part intact) and then attach it with bolts and spacers to the existing coupler if that is permitted. The coupler that I had made looks just like the end of a crankshaft with a 5 bolt mounting pattern.


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## piotrsko (Dec 9, 2007)

You may still want to thwack the high spot with some sort of object to see if it would correct the .5mm (about .030) runout which I consider to be a wee bit severe still. Loosen the setscrew first. I still like the rubber mallet but a dead blow hammer works too. 

Another series of things to check:
Does the edge of the flywheel run concentric to the shaft? Check by placing something gently against the edge and see if it binds anywhere. 
Input shaft size versus the size of the bearing in the gland nut. perhaps .5mm difference would be acceptable here. 
Have you installed the clutch into the input shaft just to make sure that the clutch disk is centered? 
Have you run it without the clutch disk to eliminate that from the pile of issues?

as for the "balance issue" I would assemble the disc and pressure plate off 90 degrees and see if that helps. repeat 3 more times. If you had a strobe you could freeze the motion and detect the imbalance.


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## Guest (Oct 8, 2011)

PTCruisin said:


> I've had a similar experience with spinning a flywheel/clutch assembly on a Warp9 motor. The motor has been removed twice now to deal with the vibration of an unbalanced flywheel. I am now considering a milled-down clutchless design since I never used the clutch anyway. You might want to look here for a solution: http://www.evcouplerconnection.com/ I do not work for Charlie or endorse his business, but I am considering using his services.
> 
> A cheaper approach is to remove the clutch disc and have it milled down to a smaller diameter (keeping the spring-loaded part intact) and then attach it with bolts and spacers to the existing coupler if that is permitted. The coupler that I had made looks just like the end of a crankshaft with a 5 bolt mounting pattern.


These are clutch setups. In an older VW and lower power setup a clutch is in my opinion a requirement. You will use the clutch. Gear your transmission to best utilize the full range of gearing and you will have an excellent ride. I went with the Pro Street VW Transaxle with the 3.44:1 Ring and pinion. At 5000 rpm in 4th I will be looking at somewhere around 110 mph. I will use the torque. 

Pete


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## EVfun (Mar 14, 2010)

And this is one of the places where Pete and I, both good VW guys, disagree. If the mass of the flywheel and pressure plate are removed and a small coupler used I find the clutch unnecessary with an aircooled Beetle transmission. If you want to drag race and plan to shift you should keep the clutch. If you are severely underpowered you might want to retain the clutch. I'm not planning to do either so I ditched the clutch -- see:


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## Guest (Oct 8, 2011)

I use the clutch because I DO use my gears. I also like to shift FAST when I do shift. My Bus will utilize all 4 gears. That means I will be shifting all the time just like in a VW with a gasser engine. I am a full advocate of the clutch. I feel that the VW is more in need of the clutch than many other cars. However I did learn one thing. If you don't have the flywheel it is easier to find the gear if you go clutch less. I still think its a good idea. If you still have the flywheel to practice shifting with out the clutch you will have troubles. Another reason I like the clutch is that there is a less likely chance of damaging the motor shaft. If the power is too high the clutch slips. On a solid connection you can twist a shaft. Over time twisting can cause fatigue. Slipping clutches can't do that. There are reasons and benefits to using a clutch. 

You choose. 

Anyway the setup that is being used is a clutch setup. So it needs to be figured out. I still think its a seating problem. Can't wait to see the video. Hopefully he is making the video I asked about. Ditch the rubber mallet and use a hammer and a good block of wood to seat the coupler to the shaft and flywheel to the coupler.


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## DavidDymaxion (Dec 1, 2008)

Go to 1:04:14 to see what happens when you don't have a clutch. Bill in the Geo Metro Convertible couldn't get it to shift from 2nd to 3rd, and gets decisively beat by the truck because of that.
http://www.youtube.com/user/marionrickard?feature=chclk#p/u/0/uJLMg1VNfmU
Now image that's an on-ramp onto a fast moving busy freeway!


gottdi said:


> I use the clutch because I DO use my gears. I also like to shift FAST when I do shift. My Bus will utilize all 4 gears. That means I will be shifting all the time just like in a VW with a gasser engine. I am a full advocate of the clutch. I feel that the VW is more in need of the clutch than many other cars. However I did learn one thing. If you don't have the flywheel it is easier to find the gear if you go clutch less. I still think its a good idea. If you still have the flywheel to practice shifting with out the clutch you will have troubles. Another reason I like the clutch is that there is a less likely chance of damaging the motor shaft. If the power is too high the clutch slips. On a solid connection you can twist a shaft. Over time twisting can cause fatigue. Slipping clutches can't do that. There are reasons and benefits to using a clutch.
> 
> You choose.
> 
> Anyway the setup that is being used is a clutch setup. So it needs to be figured out. I still think its a seating problem. Can't wait to see the video. Hopefully he is making the video I asked about. Ditch the rubber mallet and use a hammer and a good block of wood to seat the coupler to the shaft and flywheel to the coupler.


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## lowcrawler (Jun 27, 2011)

Clutched vs clutchless design debate aside...

This is where I'm at:

I pull off the adapter plate and coupler... then reinstalled the coupler (smacking it all the way solid, 100% for sure fully seated, on with a hunk of 2x4). I threw on the flywheel, spun it up, and still had horrible wobble. Damn.

But I also noticed the small space between the flywheel and the 'shoulder' of the coupler was also waving (ie: the flywheel was clearly not mounted to the hub squarely). So I pulled the flywheel off again and cleaned the flywheel mating surface and the area of the coupler around the dowels as good as humanly possible; there didn't really seem to be anything on there other than some grease-covered dust stuff, but whatever.
I reinstalled and the wobble was significantly lessened - probably only about 1/8" ... still enough to make the motor feel all vibratey and shakey... but not as bad as before.

I then rotated the flywheel 90 degrees and re-tried. Darn-near perfect as far as I could tell. I even put the pressure plate and clutch on and ran some 'tests'... which you can see here:

Installed Pressure Plate Wobble Test - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q6MDvzlYXLc
Installed Pressure Plate Concentric Test - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OSJjniKHTJ8
Flywheel Wobble Test - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QvmHyfRQwvE
Flywheel Concentric Test - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rKe99i1HdBc

I think the problem came down to a mix of slighy-off tolerances compounding on one another and installation error. (I could have swore I put it on all the way the first time)

Now, when I spin it up, I do feel some slight vibration... but nothing terrible. I can't for the life of me find a place that will balance this stuff. I've called all sorts of places, and even brought it one place, and no one is able to balance it. I did find a place that could do them individually, but not together (and it turned out they didn't have the tools to do one with an input hole as small as that on a VW bug) Am I just in a machine-shop desert, or is there some search term I should be using to find these shops?

Additionally, none of you answered my question:


> How does one balance the flywheel, clutch disc and pressure plate 'together' given that you need to then take them apart to connect them to the motor... and when you take them apart and reassemble, thing are going to be 'off' all over again...


I hate to ask, but have any of you ever actually DONE that (balance the flywheel/clutch/pressure plate combined)? I used to frequent another forum where a particular technique for changing tranny fluid was mentioned ALL the time as the BEST way to do it... well, after hearing it for years I eventually changed my fluid and tried that technique... and it did not work at all (litterally, the technique required suction on one of the tranny lines, and the transmission does not provide suction on that line...). So people on the forum had just been parroting what they had heard as gospel and no one actually did it.


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## DavidDymaxion (Dec 1, 2008)

Good to hear you are making progress.

I had given an answer back in message #3, "...A John Wayland trick is to move a washer to different bolts to minimize vibration. ..." This does balance everything as a unit, and it is cheap and easy to try. Just to be really clear (sorry if I'm stating the obvious), this means you have an extra washer to add a little extra weight to just one bolt, and try different positions until vibration is minimized. You might then try adding a 2nd washer and see if you get further benefit.

Once you get a setup that is well balanced I would mark it before disassembly so you could be sure to reassemble it in the same orientation.

Another thought: I would be sure to cycle the clutch a few times, while spinning, to make sure the clutch disk is centered.


lowcrawler said:


> ... Additionally, none of you answered my question:
> 
> 
> > How does one balance the flywheel, clutch disc and pressure plate 'together' given that you need to then take them apart to connect them to the motor... and when you take them apart and reassemble, thing are going to be 'off' all over again...


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## lowcrawler (Jun 27, 2011)

DD - sorry I missed that!! I'll have to try that if I pull it out (which it sounds like might be a good call based on other issues too... we'll see). Thank you for the practical suggestion (that I ignored... dho!!!)

The clutch not being centered is another "how can they balance that" thing I was questioning.

The problem/issue I had with trying to balance-disassemble-connect-to-motor-reassemble process is that the bolting patters (especially on the pressure plate) all have a little slack to them... Even when 99% tightened down there is 1/16" 'play' in any direction (using a screwdriver as a level) for the pressure plate relative to the flywheel. So even if you go the right orientation, you are still 'guessing' about where on the 'bolt hole' to line up... ya know?


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## DavidDymaxion (Dec 1, 2008)

I don't think things shouldn't be moving 1/16 inch. I have done 4 clutches in my life on 4 different vehicles. They typically had bolts with smooth shanks that didn't have much slack. The Porsche has a centering lip. I wonder if you have the right bolts, or if there are supposed to be some pins that accurately locate things.


lowcrawler said:


> DD - sorry I missed that!! I'll have to try that if I pull it out (which it sounds like might be a good call based on other issues too... we'll see). Thank you for the practical suggestion (that I ignored... dho!!!)
> 
> The clutch not being centered is another "how can they balance that" thing I was questioning.
> 
> The problem/issue I had with trying to balance-disassemble-connect-to-motor-reassemble process is that the bolting patters (especially on the pressure plate) all have a little slack to them... Even when 99% tightened down there is 1/16" 'play' in any direction (using a screwdriver as a level) for the pressure plate relative to the flywheel. So even if you go the right orientation, you are still 'guessing' about where on the 'bolt hole' to line up... ya know?


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## JRoque (Mar 9, 2010)

Hi. On this video of yours, it appears the center of the flywheel is wobbling quite a bit: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q6MDvzlYXLc The outer porting is not, as you point out.

JR


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## lowcrawler (Jun 27, 2011)

JRoque said:


> Hi. On this video of yours, it appears the center of the flywheel is wobbling quite a bit: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q6MDvzlYXLc The outer porting is not, as you point out.
> 
> JR


That is the center of the pressure plate spring contraption, not the flywheel. It moves if you press it hard enough... it's the piece the throwout bearing presses against to change the gears.

Look here at the 'old' type: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-wBaA2epBxk

Anyone done this setup? Does the pressure plate spring center piece ride perfectly?


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## lowcrawler (Jun 27, 2011)

DavidDymaxion said:


> The Porsche has a centering lip. I wonder if you have the right bolts, or if there are supposed to be some pins that accurately locate things. inch


They are the bolts that were on it when I dissasembled it off the original motor, so I assume they are the right ones. Is that a bad assumption?


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## piotrsko (Dec 9, 2007)

there ought to be a couple of roll or dowel pins in the flywheel that prevent any of your misalignment. I didn't see any evidence of them between the bolt holes in the video with the wood block. There also should be two (3?) holes on the pressure plate that line up with those pins. a properly set up clutch assy won't move at all side to side, and is a rather firm precise fit to take off and on without the attaching bolts. Got any way to find another flywheel to look at and compare? go to a VW place and ask to see if they have a clutch kit you can compare your stuff to. And yes, the bolts are special.

The reason I haven't told you about balancing a flywheel assembly is because: 1) I can't figure out how to get rid of bearing & brush drag. 2), I've NEVER had to do it in 35 some odd years of wrenching on VW's. ( 17 engines, 34 clutches, couple of flywheels, 2 trannies) OTOH if you get a bearing that is OD sized to the center hole on the flywheel then you could vibrate/shake it to see if it has a heavy spot. then I can tell you how to balance it.

if you get the pressure plate to be concentric to the flywheel like the wood block video, it shouldn't shake.


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## lowcrawler (Jun 27, 2011)

piotrsko said:


> there ought to be a couple of roll or dowel pins in the flywheel that prevent any of your misalignment.


There are dowels in the coupler, but they have a ever-so-slight bit of play in the holes in the flywheel.

There are no dowels coming out of the flywheel or being recieved by the pressure plate. The only things holding the pressure plate to the flywheel are the 6 bolts that were originally there...



> a properly set up clutch assy won't move at all side to side, and is a rather firm precise fit to take off and on without the attaching bolts.


Odd, without the bolts mine would fall off. (I had to hold it on while I screwed in the first bolt)



> Got any way to find another flywheel to look at and compare? go to a VW place and ask to see if they have a clutch kit you can compare your stuff to.


The original flywheel (Which I sold) did not have them. The only "VW" place I know of is here, or 2000 miles away in California.


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## piotrsko (Dec 9, 2007)

so much for being old and suffering from partz-heimers. If I recall correctly, (and I'm not so sure anymore), the VW flywheel was threaded where the pressure plate bolts went so you didn't have nuts on the opposite side. No dowel pins, but, the clutch bolts were special close tolerance grade 8.8. you need to mic the holes in the pressure plate and get a Shoulder bolt that is .003 to .010 smaller dia than that hole {which should be the same size as the attach holes in the flywheel}. Otherwise make all the holes the same size and use american standard shoulder bolt hardware. Or possibly contact the maker of the flywheel and purchase the proper bolts they recommend.

BTW you did remove the o- ring on the back side of the flywheel? you probably don't need it anymore, and it might cause some of the wobble.


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## mk4gti (May 6, 2011)

I had a nasty wobble as well and found good advice in this thread, thanks!

For what it's worth (experts will cringe) -- I have solved the side-side wobble by slightly enlarging the flywheel holes, and fine tuning(moving) the flywheel to the sweet spot.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

lowcrawler said:


> One thing that is interesting -- everyone says balance the flywheel and pressure plate (and clutch disc) together. Obviously it needs to actually be ON the motor in order to do this. Do you just bring the entire motor, with everything mounted, and have them do it that way?


From what I know/remember from my dim and distant past.

To balance a flywheel and clutch assembly the balancing shop will mount the flywheel to a shaft and balance that on its own. Then they will bolt on the pressure plate and balance the assembly and mark the orientation. It should stay balanced when reassembled. The clutch centre plate never got balanced as it was going to wear and change and find its own centre when in use. However, it could be balanced in its own right and would be fine once installed.

When assembling the clutch on the motor, bear in mind that the centre plate could be a little off centre causing imbalance. That would be resolved the first time the clutch pedal is used.
Check the balance of the flywheel and pressure plate on the motor without the centre plate in the clutch.

When I was investigating getting my 12" set up balanced for the MR2 the plan was to remove the armature from the motor and take that, the adaptor and the flywheel clutch set up to the balancing shop.
They would balance the armature then add the coupler and balance and mark its location. The the flywheel would be added and balanced and marked and then the clutch cover balanced and marked.

The whole thing can then be dismantled and reassembled in the motor. As long as the marks line up then it should stay balanced.

One thing about your wobble.
Have you tried taking a small file to remove any burrs on the outer edges of the adaptor where it locates into the back of the flywheel? Giving it a small 45deg chamfer wouldn't hurt
Being a tight fit, if the edges are really sharp then you could be scraping the recess in the flywheel and trapping metal filings in the mating surface.

Also the inside corner of the recess in the back of the flywheel will have a tiny radius due to the machine tools not being able to cut an absolutely sharp 90deg inside corner. It could be undercut a little to give clearance but a chamfer on the adaptor would relieve any contact there.


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## DavidDymaxion (Dec 1, 2008)

Not an expert but <cringe> anyways.  As long as we are in <cringe> mode here, how about welding it on to make sure it doesn't move now? Then you could also get rid of those pesky, heavy flywheel bolts.

Actually I'd guess there's a good chance there is enough friction that'll work (even minus the welding  ), but you'll have to redo the balance again if you ever remove it.

(Just to be explicit, the welding thing was a joke! I wouldn't recommend welding your flywheel on!)


mk4gti said:


> I had a nasty wobble as well and found good advice in this thread, thanks!
> 
> For what it's worth (experts will cringe) -- I have solved the side-side wobble by slightly enlarging the flywheel holes, and fine tuning(moving) the flywheel to the sweet spot.


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## mk4gti (May 6, 2011)

Welding is not a good idea in my situation. With the flywheel in place, I won't be able to set (or remove) the set screws at the base of the adapter. Furthermore it's difficult to control the flow/amount of weld that would go on there. Doesn't take much and it's out of whack, and the flywheel is toast. 

I am in rethinking the design a bit so there is a failsafe.


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## DavidDymaxion (Dec 1, 2008)

Just to be clear, the welding the flywheel on thing was meant to be a joke and not serious advice!


mk4gti said:


> Welding is not a good idea in my situation. With the flywheel in place, I won't be able to set (or remove) the set screws at the base of the adapter. Furthermore it's difficult to control the flow/amount of weld that would go on there. Doesn't take much and it's out of whack, and the flywheel is toast.
> 
> I am in rethinking the design a bit so there is a failsafe.


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## Ziggythewiz (May 16, 2010)

If you're looking for power you can always weld the diff to give more torque to the flux-capacitor.


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