# [EVDL] Adapter Plate Tolerances



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Hi Roger;

I don't know about the Audi, but because of it's Teutonic heritage, it 
MIGHT have a tranny setup like the Rabbbit/Jetta? You MIGHT not need to 
support the trannny's imput shaft?But IF ya saw the needle bearing in the 
camshaft end? You WILL! The OLDER JokesWagen beetle it HAS to be supported. 
All this is the critical part of building an EV!It HAS to be centered, 
supported and dead~nuts CENTERED. If all this is right the car, or tranny 
will run smooth and shift good.EVerything else can sorta be "good Enough" 
meaning fitting stuff with a large hammer or saber or sawz all.Well, within 
reason?

Seeya

Bob
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Roger Heuckeroth" <[email protected]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, July 16, 2008 4:46 PM
Subject: [EVDL] Adapter Plate Tolerances


> I'm working on designing the adapter to mount a WarP11 to the
> transmission of my Audi A4 conversion. I am retaining the clutch and
> was wondering if anyone new how closely the motor shaft and the
> transmission shaft need to be aligned. to avoid vibration at high
> RPM. The transmission shaft on the Audi actually extends past the
> clutch disk and fits into a 15mm needle bearing inset into the
> flywheel bushing.
>
> The simplest thing to do is to cut off the end of the transmission
> shaft to remove the potion that would go into flywheel bearing. That
> way I could use a standard taper-lock adapter bushing and hub to mount
> the flywheel. The problem then comes as to how to align the two
> shafts so that there is not a whole bunch of vibration and bearing wear.
>
> The other option is to have a special bushing made into which I can
> press a bearing that has a 15mm ID That will assure that the shafts
> are perfectly aligned. However, its more work and expense, and also
> makes the adapter longer and possibly pushes the motor out to a point
> where it interferes with the front cowling of the car. Its a tight
> fit as it is.
>
> Which way do you all think I should go and why?
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> For general EVDL support, see http://evdl.org/help/
> For subscription options, see http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
> 


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

I don't think there is a manual transmission out there that the pilot shaft
doesn't get supported by the center of the flywheel/crank shaft. Without it
there is no support for the clutch disk while the clutch is disengaged. 

Short answer: "you need the bearing"

Mark Grasser
Eliot, ME

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf
Of Bob Rice
Sent: Wednesday, July 16, 2008 5:05 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Adapter Plate Tolerances

Hi Roger;

I don't know about the Audi, but because of it's Teutonic heritage, it 
MIGHT have a tranny setup like the Rabbbit/Jetta? You MIGHT not need to 
support the trannny's imput shaft?But IF ya saw the needle bearing in the 
camshaft end? You WILL! The OLDER JokesWagen beetle it HAS to be supported. 
All this is the critical part of building an EV!It HAS to be centered, 
supported and dead~nuts CENTERED. If all this is right the car, or tranny 
will run smooth and shift good.EVerything else can sorta be "good Enough" 
meaning fitting stuff with a large hammer or saber or sawz all.Well, within 
reason?

Seeya

Bob
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Roger Heuckeroth" <[email protected]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, July 16, 2008 4:46 PM
Subject: [EVDL] Adapter Plate Tolerances


> I'm working on designing the adapter to mount a WarP11 to the
> transmission of my Audi A4 conversion. I am retaining the clutch and
> was wondering if anyone new how closely the motor shaft and the
> transmission shaft need to be aligned. to avoid vibration at high
> RPM. The transmission shaft on the Audi actually extends past the
> clutch disk and fits into a 15mm needle bearing inset into the
> flywheel bushing.
>
> The simplest thing to do is to cut off the end of the transmission
> shaft to remove the potion that would go into flywheel bearing. That
> way I could use a standard taper-lock adapter bushing and hub to mount
> the flywheel. The problem then comes as to how to align the two
> shafts so that there is not a whole bunch of vibration and bearing wear.
>
> The other option is to have a special bushing made into which I can
> press a bearing that has a 15mm ID That will assure that the shafts
> are perfectly aligned. However, its more work and expense, and also
> makes the adapter longer and possibly pushes the motor out to a point
> where it interferes with the front cowling of the car. Its a tight
> fit as it is.
>
> Which way do you all think I should go and why?
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> For general EVDL support, see http://evdl.org/help/
> For subscription options, see http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
> 


_______________________________________________
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For subscription options, see http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Hello Roger,

I have talk to my master mechanic who has been doing this type of work for 
over 50 years now. He said, the transmission input shaft should at least be 
in with 0.001 of a inch to the center line of the bushing in a crank shaft 
flange.

The Warp 11 motor comes with a hole in the output shaft for the transmission 
input shaft. The motor coupler should be install so the coupler flange that 
bolts to the flywheel should be in the same reference plane as the crank 
flange on a engine.

If you use just bolts to bolt on a adapter plate to the transmission bell 
housing, you may not be exactly center line, because the bolt holes for that 
bolt size has a lot of clearance around it. Try one bolt and see how much it 
will move around in the standard size hole.

If you look at the engine, you will see two taper guild steel pins that are 
center line to the center of the crank. These pins are install like a press 
fit into a hole drill and into the bell housing that is design for that 
guild pin.

It is best to install new pins every time you change a transmission or even 
doing this adapter modification. You can get these guild pins as a press in 
type that will go into the adapter plate, or you can get them that has a 
allen head that is on a slight offset guild pin. You now can adjust the 
transmission bell housing, so the input shaft is right on.

The problem I had, the adapter plate guild pin holes were smaller than the 
guild pin holes in the bell housing. I had to get the larger pins to have a 
firm fit into the bell housing and had to turn the pin down for a press fit 
into the adapter plate.

I could have use a guild pin that fit the adapter plate and use a bushing 
for a firm fit on the bell.

Also, it is suggest by a lot of transmission mechanics, not to use a nose 
bushing that has needle bearings in it, instead of the hard bronze type. 
They told me they had to replace a lot of these needle type bushings that 
fail a lot sooner than a bronze one will.

Roland




----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Roger Heuckeroth" <[email protected]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, July 16, 2008 2:46 PM
Subject: [EVDL] Adapter Plate Tolerances


> I'm working on designing the adapter to mount a WarP11 to the
> transmission of my Audi A4 conversion. I am retaining the clutch and
> was wondering if anyone new how closely the motor shaft and the
> transmission shaft need to be aligned. to avoid vibration at high
> RPM. The transmission shaft on the Audi actually extends past the
> clutch disk and fits into a 15mm needle bearing inset into the
> flywheel bushing.
>
> The simplest thing to do is to cut off the end of the transmission
> shaft to remove the potion that would go into flywheel bearing. That
> way I could use a standard taper-lock adapter bushing and hub to mount
> the flywheel. The problem then comes as to how to align the two
> shafts so that there is not a whole bunch of vibration and bearing wear.
>
> The other option is to have a special bushing made into which I can
> press a bearing that has a 15mm ID That will assure that the shafts
> are perfectly aligned. However, its more work and expense, and also
> makes the adapter longer and possibly pushes the motor out to a point
> where it interferes with the front cowling of the car. Its a tight
> fit as it is.
>
> Which way do you all think I should go and why?
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> For general EVDL support, see http://evdl.org/help/
> For subscription options, see http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>
> 


_______________________________________________
For general EVDL support, see http://evdl.org/help/
For subscription options, see http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> From: [email protected]
> To: [email protected]
> Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2008 17:39:54 -0400
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Adapter Plate Tolerances
> 
> I don't think there is a manual transmission out there that the pilot shaft
> doesn't get supported by the center of the flywheel/crank shaft. Without it
> there is no support for the clutch disk while the clutch is disengaged. 
> 

There certainly is at least one. My Toyota Echo manual transmission had no pilot shaft or pilot bearing. The transmission shaft is not supported at the engine end in any way. 

The clutch disk is supported only by the cantilevered (and splined) transmission shaft. 

This just means that the transmission input shaft is supported by two ( well-spaced) bearings within the transmission, and is large enough in diameter to have sufficient stiffness and strength to be unsupported at the engine end.





Phil Marino

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> I don't think there is a manual transmission out there that the pilot
> shaft
> doesn't get supported by the center of the flywheel/crank shaft. Without
> it
> there is no support for the clutch disk while the clutch is disengaged. 
>
> Short answer: "you need the bearing"
> 
> Mark Grasser
> Eliot, ME

Mark,

I've just finished the adapter design and installation on another example of
a car that doesn't have a pilot shaft supported on the crankshaft end. My
2001 Ford Focus has a transaxle shaft that just ends at the termination of
the clutch splines, so the motor shaft and the clutch shaft are not touching
at all. This is why I took special care in measuring the alignment holes
and shaft position using a CMM, and had the machinist hold tight tolerances
on all of the parts. Based on measurments I'm guessing that by taking great
care I've got the center of the two shafts aligned within a mil or two. 
(hard to see once the motor is mated
Another vehicle without a pilot shaft is a 1995 Caravan with a manual
transaxle. A local guy is converting one on the cheap and will use the
Steve Clunn (IIRC) method of running the motor while mounted loosly to the
transmission, then adjusting alignment for minimum vibration.
If your transmission has a pilot shaft I would certainly make use of it!

Chris
http://www.simonfamily.us/FocusEV/FocusEV.htm

-----
Strongly considering an EV conversion at the moment...
-- 
View this message in context: http://www.nabble.com/Adapter-Plate-Tolerances-tp18496308p18501366.html
Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at Nabble.com.


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

>I don't think there is a manual transmission out there that the pilot shaft
> doesn't get supported by the center of the flywheel/crank shaft. Without 
> it
> there is no support for the clutch disk while the clutch is disengaged.
>
> Short answer: "you need the bearing"
>
> Mark Grasser
> Eliot, ME

Hi All,

I've been reading this thread with interest because I have two transmissions 
here - one with no pilot shaft and one without. I accept that the one 
without must have good enough bearings inside the transmission to support 
the cantilevered shaft and forces from the clutch. I'm trying to work out 
how to deal with the other. Unfortunately, I didn't realise this was an 
issue until the original diesel engine had gone to the great scrapyard in 
the sky so I can't study it to see how it supported the cantilevered shaft. 
FWIW, this transmission is from an 1988 ISUZU KB series pickup.

My plan so far is to use an ex forklift motor that has a splined output 
shaft with a short threaded part on the end (the splines drove a spur gear 
that was held in place by a collar screwed onto the threaded part, the 
collar locked in place by two setscrews through it into holes in the spur 
gear). I was thinking that I would not use the clutch, replacing it with a 
DIY coupler with the spur gear on one end and the splines from the clutch 
plate on the other. The problems I see with this are:
1. Supporting the pilot end of the input shaft into the transmission - do I 
have to bore the end of the motor shaft and insert a bearing? Probably a 
bronze bush?
2. The coupling with splines on either end would not be locked on either 
shaft (at least I can't see how to do that). The result is that it would 
float about within the tolerances on the two splines and I fear that this 
would cause excessive wear.

If I kept the clutch I could fit the flywheel rigidly to the spur gear and 
then lock that onto the motor shaft. The clutch would drive the input shaft 
to the transmission just like it used to. The problems with this are:
1. Supporting the pilot end of the input shaft into the transmission.
2. I don't want to use the flywheel and clutch!

I'm sure this is not an original problem, others must have solved it before. 
How did you do it?

Dave. 


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Ok. you guys have convinced me to keep the pilot bearing. Now, do I 
need to have the motor shaft machined so I can press the special 
metric bushing or bearing that I will need into the motor shaft? Will 
Netgain do this, or am I on my own? If I go with a bronze metric 
bushing the closest one I see to what I will need has a 19 mm OD. The 
WarP motor comes with a .688" (17.475 mm) diameter hole in it. So I 
would have to have that bored out by about 1.5 mm (0.748").

Anyone know of a good machine shop in the Northeast US that has done 
this kind of work before? I know Electro Automotive does this but it 
will cost me over $500 in shipping, since they want the whole tranny 
shipped to them.


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Hello David,

If the output of the motor shaft is at least 1-3/8 inch in diameter, than it 
could be bore for a standard stock pilot bushing. The GE-11 has the 
standard size GM bushing in it, and the Warp 9 which has a 1-1/8 inch 
diameter output shaft, has the smaller diameter bushing which I got from a 
Bearing Sales shop.

I did not use the bushing in the Warp 9 motor, because when the adapter and 
motor coupler came from Electro Auto, they have the taper lock coupler 
design to hold the transmission input shaft bushing. This is why the 
adapter plates are so thick, because this did push the motor further away 
from the transmission.

In the GE-11 motor I do not use a flywheel and clutch assembly. A splined 
coupler is bolt to motor coupler that has a connection tube that has a 
external splines slide and floats in. This drive tube then slips over the 
transmission input shaft splines. This is a automatic transmission coupler, 
but something like this may work for a manual transmission too.

See http://go-ev.net/pics/001.html and click on images 28 to 37 to see 
this coupler and drive tube.

This drive tube is a special made up unit from tci.com. But you could have 
a machine shop made a drive tube that has a internal spline to slip over the 
motor splines. You do not what to have this tube fix in place, but allow it 
to float with a 1/8 to 3/16 inch floating clearances.

Some machine shops and this type of dealer handles, shafts and spline drive 
shafts for power takeoffs. They may have a spline shaft that may fit the 
motor splines. Then all they have to do is get the proper length, which is 
determine by distance from the motor coupler to the transmission.

They then can machine or weld in a internal spline to fit the transmission. 
The length of this floating drive tube is important. It should be long 
enough, so it cannot float over 1/8 to 3/16 inch. Could make it a little 
longer, and than grind the tube down to fit just right.

The spline coupler should fit very firm, not tight, but is allow to float. 
This method supports the transmission input shaft.

Roland




----- Original Message ----- 
From: "David Micklethwaite" <[email protected]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, July 17, 2008 5:01 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Adapter Plate Tolerances


> >I don't think there is a manual transmission out there that the pilot 
> >shaft
> > doesn't get supported by the center of the flywheel/crank shaft. Without
> > it
> > there is no support for the clutch disk while the clutch is disengaged.
> >
> > Short answer: "you need the bearing"
> >
> > Mark Grasser
> > Eliot, ME
>
> Hi All,
>
> I've been reading this thread with interest because I have two 
> transmissions
> here - one with no pilot shaft and one without. I accept that the one
> without must have good enough bearings inside the transmission to support
> the cantilevered shaft and forces from the clutch. I'm trying to work out
> how to deal with the other. Unfortunately, I didn't realise this was an
> issue until the original diesel engine had gone to the great scrapyard in
> the sky so I can't study it to see how it supported the cantilevered 
> shaft.
> FWIW, this transmission is from an 1988 ISUZU KB series pickup.
>
> My plan so far is to use an ex forklift motor that has a splined output
> shaft with a short threaded part on the end (the splines drove a spur gear
> that was held in place by a collar screwed onto the threaded part, the
> collar locked in place by two setscrews through it into holes in the spur
> gear). I was thinking that I would not use the clutch, replacing it with a
> DIY coupler with the spur gear on one end and the splines from the clutch
> plate on the other. The problems I see with this are:
> 1. Supporting the pilot end of the input shaft into the transmission - do 
> I
> have to bore the end of the motor shaft and insert a bearing? Probably a
> bronze bush?
> 2. The coupling with splines on either end would not be locked on either
> shaft (at least I can't see how to do that). The result is that it would
> float about within the tolerances on the two splines and I fear that this
> would cause excessive wear.
>
> If I kept the clutch I could fit the flywheel rigidly to the spur gear and
> then lock that onto the motor shaft. The clutch would drive the input 
> shaft
> to the transmission just like it used to. The problems with this are:
> 1. Supporting the pilot end of the input shaft into the transmission.
> 2. I don't want to use the flywheel and clutch!
>
> I'm sure this is not an original problem, others must have solved it 
> before.
> How did you do it?
>
> Dave.
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> For general EVDL support, see http://evdl.org/help/
> For subscription options, see http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>
> 


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Hi Roger;

Yup! Yur on your own on this one! You could schleppe the stuff down here 
to Corrupticut. My guy over in Guilford would know what yur going through 
and could fix ya up, I'm sure?If ya got some time, come on down(over) Spend 
the nite, if need be. he has done me alota flavers; 400 bux for a plate and 
coupling, now that was a few years ago, though.We can talk? I hate to pay 
the going price for these things and have been on my own for years!

Seeya?

Bob
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Roger Heuckeroth" <[email protected]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, July 17, 2008 9:16 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Adapter Plate Tolerances


> Ok. you guys have convinced me to keep the pilot bearing. Now, do I
> need to have the motor shaft machined so I can press the special
> metric bushing or bearing that I will need into the motor shaft? Will
> Netgain do this, or am I on my own? If I go with a bronze metric
> bushing the closest one I see to what I will need has a 19 mm OD. The
> WarP motor comes with a .688" (17.475 mm) diameter hole in it. So I
> would have to have that bored out by about 1.5 mm (0.748").
>
> Anyone know of a good machine shop in the Northeast US that has done
> this kind of work before? I know Electro Automotive does this but it
> will cost me over $500 in shipping, since they want the whole tranny
> shipped to them.
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> For general EVDL support, see http://evdl.org/help/
> For subscription options, see http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
> 


_______________________________________________
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For subscription options, see http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

A1 VW's (Rabbit, e.g.) didn't use a pilot bearing.
But I agree, that's the only car I've ever come across that didn't...

Toby

On Wed, Jul 16, 2008 at 2:39 PM, Mark Grasser <[email protected]>


> wrote:
> 
> > I don't think there is a manual transmission out there that the pilot shaft
> > doesn't get supported by the center of the flywheel/crank shaft. Without it
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

They used a transmission design in which the clutch release was a rod in the
center of the shaft, instead of a fork, like any other transmission I've
ever seen. With this release rod coming out of the middle of the shaft, I
think it can't have a pilot bearing, because the rod has to stop at the
pressure plate, rather than having a hole in the middle of the pressure
plate for the shaft to continue to the engine flywheel.

Z



> Toby B <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> > A1 VW's (Rabbit, e.g.) didn't use a pilot bearing.
> > But I agree, that's the only car I've ever come across that didn't...
> ...


----------

