# Range in cold weather



## F16bmathis (Jun 6, 2008)

So I had a Curtis 500, swapped in a Zilla 1K. Its warmer than it was when I had the Curtis, where I had a 17-20 mile range in 20 degree weather, and now with the Zilla and 30+ degree weather, I had 13 miles last night. Yeah, it was fun accelerating past some of the old fashioned gas vehicles, but 13 miles? (144V, 24-6V Trojans, 2/0 cable, 650 miles on the truck / batteries). And the Pak-Traker "B" string keeps crapping out and shows a total of 600 and some volts, roughly 50-60 volts per battery on the "B" string, "A" and "C" are good, water is good, voltage when full on each battery is 6.4 to 6.5. I also noticed the 3.73 gears don't do me any favors compared to my old truck that had 3.08's. I may check the batteries acid levels next. One of my batteries actually froze this winter, expanded the case. One cell was dead. There was ice all over the top of the bad cell.Turned it back in for a new one.

Is this cold weather, or do I have a problem?

Thanks


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## TheSGC (Nov 15, 2007)

How many AMPs were you pulling from the pack? 144 volts of 6 volt batteries should give you more like 40-50 miles of range, speed depending. Flooded batteries and the power of a Zilla can be a death sentence for the range since flooded should usually not be drawn past 200-300 amps.

You should check the levels of each battery, all you connections and put some EMI chokes on the PakTrakr remotes to chop down the noise.


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## F16bmathis (Jun 6, 2008)

I guess I'll have to install the amp meter now... I'm sure its way over 2-300 amps, thats what the Curtis pulled. I'll have to let off the pedal and allow those antique gas cars to pass me. I might have to go back to the Curtis.

Thanks


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## TheSGC (Nov 15, 2007)

What do you use for a charger? 

Also, how are you measuring range? Are you driving until it drops, or are you basing it off the PakTrakr or a volt meter? My PakTrakr does some funky things sometimes, but most of that has been fixed with EMI chokes from Radio Shack. I have noticed that the PakTrakr estimates seem way lower than what's really left in the batteries, either as a safety precaution, or something to do with the funky voltages. I have a 96 volt system and sometimes it will report 26 volts or 250+ volts for a few seconds. 

If your batteries are reading 6.4 to 6.5 volts, they do sound perfectly fine. It could be a mix of the cold weather and the power of the Zilla making the range less. You could try programming the Zilla to 500 AMPs like the Curtis was, and try driving again and see what happens.


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## F16bmathis (Jun 6, 2008)

I have a Manzanita 20. The range is from the odometer, I reset before each drive. I normally drive till I get to 20 miles or close to it, but I've noticed just before it starts going dead, my 12V (truck battery) guage starts to go down! The dc/dc must reverse flow? If I mis-judge acceleration, I end up driving till its creeping along, which I don't want to do, haven't done that but 3 times. I bought a small (20 amp) generator to get me home. I read that at 126V under load, the battery is considered dead, but with the Zilla, it drops below 125 almost right away. I forgot I can program the Zilla! I'll have to look into doing that... 18 mile drive to work, 18 home, did that plus 10 more in summer with the Curtis.


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## TheSGC (Nov 15, 2007)

The DC/DC will tank it if the Traction Pack gets below a certain value.

If your Battery Pack is dropping below 126 V when accelerating, then your Zilla is setup too high for your batteries. While 126 volts is considered "dead" for a 144 volt system, it's not quite accurate. Using voltage to measure battery life left is only truly accurate after the batteries have been sitting for at least an hour, 24 hours would be the best. 

Having the Zilla current set too high, and the Temp below 70F makes range quite pitiful. Most people find that range it cut in half below 40F, so keep that in mind too.


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## F16bmathis (Jun 6, 2008)

Thanks,

I read up on programming the Zilla, will do it tonight, after I stop by Radio Shack for the EMI Chokes, and I'll keep it under 20 miles till it gets up around 70 degrees. Anybody have $20,000 to give me to buy Lithium?


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## speculawyer (Feb 10, 2009)

F16bmathis said:


> Anybody have $20,000 to give me to buy Lithium?


You can build a pretty big pack for $10K. 

If you are only going 13 miles, you could probably build a pack for less than $5K but that wouldn't be very useful.


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## CPLTECH (Sep 14, 2007)

I hate to bring up the subject of the “Peukert Effect” as I too, never paid much attention when it was discussed here on the forum until re-reading the instruction manual of the Link 20. Yesterday during city driving, I paid attention as to when the Link 20 dropped to the 80% full LED bar display of my 250AH batteries & compared that to AH used of 40AH vs. 50AH (20% x 250AH batt). So one gave me AH consumed, the other, battery status as a result of the Peukert. In this experimentation, I am observing how excessive amp draw has a dramatic effect on what is left in the battery pack & total range. In other words, keep your foot out of it.

Seems like you had too much fun with the Zilla, whereas the Curtis limited the fun (max amps). Does the Zilla have an economy / fun mode toggle switch? [joking]


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## F16bmathis (Jun 6, 2008)

I need to go 40 miles, 13 was what I was able to go.

Zilla does have an economy mode, you have to set it up though and I have not. I could always ease off the pedal, but thats so hard to do when someones trying to pass you just because they can read the "electric" emblems. It's so much fun to watch someone suddenly accelerate, change lanes and try and pass, only to have me accelerate. I think it surprises them that an electric can go so fast. Gotta keep it friendly though!

Made my generators 220 cable to send top the Manzanita 20 charger, may test it tonight and see if it extends the range without blowing up. Either way, at least I'll have an emergency generator to keep me from being stranded.


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## CPLTECH (Sep 14, 2007)

Cold weather hurts, but during the 2007-08 winter, I was easily able to travel 28 miles to a class & back. When real cold [in SW Ohio], I chose to travel back roads to go slower. As the days get warmer, the batteries respond so much better. I don’t understand why you can’t do better with that 144V setup. Could tires be too wide or out of alignment? Brakes dragging? Mine is a 94 S10, 9”ADC, 120V Curtis, USBattery 145 (250AH similar to the Trojan T-145), 40 PSI tire pressure, RedLine MTL Syn Trans lube.


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## F16bmathis (Jun 6, 2008)

I just increased air pressure to 41, got my foot off the pedal, coasted alot, and got 20 miles, maybe had 2-3 more left. Its getting warmer, and as soon as I can find a 3.08 rear end, thats going in.

Manzanita said to not use anything that does not output a pure sine wave. So charging with the generator might be out, though I did charge for a few minutes a while back and it did just fine.


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## madderscience (Jun 28, 2008)

If the weather gets cold enough where you are to freeze cells, then you probably ought to look at insulating your battery pack if at all possible. Once that is done you could add battery warmers too if necessary quite easily. I didn't see where in the thread where you mentioned what type of vehicle you have but with 24 T-105s I am assuming its a pickup or van, so hopefully there is enough room that retrofitting insulation will be fairly easy.

If one cell was frozen, it is possible other one(s) were damaged too. Do any of them sag substantially more under load than the others? I'd be looking for the weak link in your chain.

You might also try a coast down test to see if there are any major efficiency issues with your vehicle. On a long, flat concrete roadway if it takes any less than 20 seconds to coast down from 40mph to 30mph (taking multiple samples in each direction on the same stretch of road and averaging) then I would suspect alignment/brake drag/crappy tires or something else. Last time I measured my car, the number was closer to 30 seconds.

Flooring it at driving at 65 or 70 will kill your range too. I try not to exceed 55mph in my car. 55 is around 100 amps, 70 is more like 200 amps.

Finally, are the batteries just old? If they are a few years old and have been driven hard for a while, it is possible they are just getting tired and it is time for a new pack. But it sort of sounds like that is not the case since you are getting warantee replacements.


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## F16bmathis (Jun 6, 2008)

I did have the pack insulated till I re-installed the batteries under the bed. The battery that had the frozen cell was the onlt battery that actually froze. I check voltages of the batteries occasionally, same with the water.

The truck is a Chevy S-10, my second, evablbum.com/1752. It will coast for quite some time before slowing down, but the rear end gears are 3.7? instead of 3.08 or better. And I did get 21 miles last night, this time the headlights were off.

The batteries are brand new with 650 miles on them. Although... I did short out 10 of them, had to replace four due to melted case tops and lead posts. And I laughed at those idiots on the Science Channel when they shorted out the 67 Camaro's battery pack! Serves me right!

I was looking a getting an amp hour battery checking meter. Found some on E-bay. But I think I'll see if I have more batteries that dont have the proper ?Weight? of acid like the one that froze. If they can scew up one, they can screw them all up.


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## F16bmathis (Jun 6, 2008)

1000 Amp meter installed, and yes, I was hitting 1000 amops with the Zilla. So I'm keeping my foot off the pedal till I can get a better battery system.

I plugged my Manzanita charger into my generator now wired to the 220V output. It lasted for about 20 seconds before the smoke started pouring out. After opening it up, I found the capacitor that had blown was on a small voltage regulator board, put the part number in google, and for $25 its on the way. Hope it fixes it, won't ever charge with the generator unless I purchase a true sine wave inverter and use a 12V battery as a buffer.


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