# Re: [EVDL] Group 31 battery size



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Group 31 battery size*

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Bill & Nancy" <[email protected]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, October 04, 2007 11:21 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Group 31 battery size


> Group 31 battery size: 13 x 6 13/18 x 9 7/16.
> Bill
>

This is the same group battery I have for my 12 volt accessory battery which 
has a reserved capacity of 225 minutes at 25 amps and rated at 130 AH.

When new, I use it to break in my Warp 9 motor. It could only run the motor 
for about 30 minutes and when the voltage was reduce to 10.5, it drops like 
a rock. By the time I turn off the power, in another micro second, the 
voltage was already down to 8 volt.

Roland 

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Group 31 battery size*

... and seem to be around 63 lbs each and ratings
around 100Ah (+/-).

On the otherhand, Firefly's version should be much
lighter (70% less lead) and have a higher aH rating
(like 50% more, e.g. around 150Ah?).

So, for a 120v EV, 10 of today's group 31 batts
typically would be 630lbs and like a 30-40 mile range
(120v x 100Ah = 12000Wh. At 300Wh/mile, about 40
miles). 

So, with Firefly, about 60 mile range and assuming 60
of the 63 lbs of a regular batt is the lead, FF would
be about about 21 lbs each x 10 equals just 210 lbs. 

And it still retains 90% of charge capability after
over 3 times the normal cycles of today's batts.

Sounds too good to be true... supposedly the price
should be just a little above today's lead-acid
equivalent. 

I'm lickin' my chops and waiting to see if they come
out next year and how much they'll be.

Scott

p.s. Please chime in if my numbers are off...



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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Group 31 battery size*



> S Collins wrote:
> 
> > p.s. Please chime in if my numbers are off...
> 
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Group 31 battery size*

I have a hard time imaging them being 3x lighter. Maybe I lack imagination?

The greater AH in the batt is not the only benefit, the real kicker is 
would be if they're gonna decrease the Peukert factor to something so 
low that effectively all the AH are usable. Then the range is gonna be 
quite practical, especially if they tolerate deep-cycling like they say.

Again, things never seem to turn out as promised. A possible scenario 
is that they could stay limited to high-dollar military and industrial 
apps for quite a few years, eventually being available to non-OEMs but 
at a high price. It could take many years for it to truly go into 
off-the-shelf mass production where they're "cheap". But it's hard to 
say, they're saving a lot on lead, maybe the big auto mfg'ers would 
actually show the interest in EVs here and get them out there faster.

Danny



> S Collins wrote:
> 
> >... and seem to be around 63 lbs each and ratings
> >around 100Ah (+/-).
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Group 31 battery size*

The press release is very specifically about commercial trucking, not
military or industrial. They are targeting the group 31 form factor
because it is the most popular one in trucks. They are trying to get
them into the market to exploit the new CA five minute idling rule.
Truckers will no longer be allowed to idle their engines to provide
utility power while parked, so they will need large deep cycle batteries
instead of the typical starting batteries. They want to be able to
replace the starting batteries with the least cost and disruption to the
trucks and operators.

- kent

On Thu, 04 Oct 2007 14:50:46 -0500, "Danny Miller"
<[email protected]> said:
> Again, things never seem to turn out as promised. A possible scenario 
> is that they could stay limited to high-dollar military and industrial 
> apps for quite a few years, eventually being available to non-OEMs but 
> at a high price. It could take many years for it to truly go into 
> off-the-shelf mass production where they're "cheap". But it's hard to 
> say, they're saving a lot on lead, maybe the big auto mfg'ers would 
> actually show the interest in EVs here and get them out there faster.

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Group 31 battery size*

Can anyone say with any authority whether these "trucker" batteries would even be suitable for EV use?

----- Original Message ----
The press release is very specifically about commercial trucking, not
military or industrial. They are targeting the group 31 form factor
because it is the most popular one in trucks. They are trying to get
them into the market to exploit the new CA five minute idling rule.
Truckers will no longer be allowed to idle their engines to provide
utility power while parked, so they will need large deep cycle batteries
instead of the typical starting batteries. They want to be able to
replace the starting batteries with the least cost and disruption to the
trucks and operators.




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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Group 31 battery size*

On Thu, 4 Oct 2007 12:24:37 -0700 (PDT), you wrote:

>... and seem to be around 63 lbs each and ratings
>around 100Ah (+/-).
65 pounds is correct.
>On the otherhand, Firefly's version should be much
>lighter (70% less lead) and have a higher aH rating
>(like 50% more, e.g. around 150Ah?).
>
>So, for a 120v EV, 10 of today's group 31 batts
>typically would be 630lbs and like a 30-40 mile range
>(120v x 100Ah = 12000Wh. At 300Wh/mile, about 40
>miles). 

That is what the specs for my car are.

>So, with Firefly, about 60 mile range and assuming 60
>of the 63 lbs of a regular batt is the lead, FF would
>be about about 21 lbs each x 10 equals just 210 lbs. 
>
>And it still retains 90% of charge capability after
>over 3 times the normal cycles of today's batts.
>
>Sounds too good to be true... supposedly the price
>should be just a little above today's lead-acid
>equivalent. 
>
>I'm lickin' my chops and waiting to see if they come
>out next year and how much they'll be.

Me too.

>Scott
>
>p.s. Please chime in if my numbers are off...
>
Dead on.



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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Group 31 battery size*

On Thu, 4 Oct 2007 14:45:28 -0700 (PDT), you wrote:

>Can anyone say with any authority whether these "trucker" batteries would even be suitable for EV use?

No authority but, this is what I have in my car. After sitting for
two years they are coming back nicely. We'll see.

R. M. Milliron

1981 Jet Electrica 
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/702

This machine has been garaged for 17 years. 
I am upgrading it and getting it running. Tabitha,
my daughter, named it, "Pikachu". It's yellow and black,
electric and contains Japanese parts, so I went with it.



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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Group 31 battery size*



> R. Matt Milliron wrote:
> 
> > >Can anyone say with any authority whether these "trucker"
> > >batteries would even be suitable for EV use?
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Group 31 battery size*



> you wrote:
> 
> >R. Matt Milliron wrote:
> >
> ...


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