# Why Aren't Young Americans Buying Cars?



## somanywelps (Jan 25, 2012)

Because they have less money due to the political fuckery of the economy.


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## Coley (Jul 26, 2007)

Hard to justify a new car when you have to move back in with the folks..


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## aeroscott (Jan 5, 2008)

they need to have the cost of cars reflect real cost of building (10-20 hours to build ). But no matter we need good jobs , not more loans .


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## lowcrawler (Jun 27, 2011)

Being inn that demographic, neither me nor my friends buy new because the massive depreciation that occurs. My close friends all have 30k+ cars, but all were bought used.

I can get a 1 year old car for 2/3 the price. It's a no-brainer.


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## Ziggythewiz (May 16, 2010)

And I can get a 10 yr old for 1/10 the price...

Even if I were filthy loaded I can't imagine buying a new car. I'd just get a really nice old one and load it up with lithium.

One of the issues the Volt has is that OEMs are trying to push the idea of a typical car costing $30-40K. The reality is that the average is around $20K, and even that is overinflated.


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## jeremyjs (Sep 22, 2010)

Yep. It's simple. Buying a brand new car is one of the worst investments you can make. It drops significantly in value as soon as you drive it off of the lot and loses 1/3 of it's value in 1 year. Add the fact that wages have been flat for a long time and inflation high. You get a a lot of people with significantly reduced buying power looking for a value. Buying a brand new car is not it.


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## aeroscott (Jan 5, 2008)

been doing the old car thing my whole life (58). New cars are the worst investment going . whats more local (jobs) then to put 100's of hours into any car from any country ( my old Mercedes has more local labor in it then 10 new made in USA cars do) . And we can modify to get rid of the planed obsolescence .


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## Ziggythewiz (May 16, 2010)

aeroscott said:


> my old Mercedes has more local labor in it then 10 new made in USA cars do


I hope your local labor is cheap! I remember a story about a guy with a million mile car that he had spent enough on to have bought 5 or 6 new ones. The thought that a single Prius or other high MPG vehicle could have saved him and many like him $25K per year boggles the mind.


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## aeroscott (Jan 5, 2008)

DIY is cheap and pick and pull for most parts and of course a very solid long lasting car . I've been doing this for 46 years (started at age 12)


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

This is why I not only buy used, but I buy OLD used vehicles. My saturn is actually the newest vehicle I own. My diesel F250 is from 1986 and there is nothing on it that I cannot fix myself (the engine needs one 12V wire in order to run). Parts are dirt cheap as well.


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## DJBecker (Nov 3, 2010)

aeroscott said:


> they need to have the cost of cars reflect real cost of building (10-20 hours to build ). But no matter we need good jobs , not more loans .


This number is pretty misleading. Final assembly takes that long. But that's just putting together the sub-assemblies, each of which has a lot of labor invested.

There is a long history of shifting labor, and how it's described. In the U.S., the final assembly is typically done by union labor while subsystem suppliers may be non-union. When the labor contract specifies that the whole assembly workforce must be union members, over time labor shifts to lower cost external vendors. Instead of the factory screwing together headlight parts, the design is changed to a single piece clip-in composite headlight with integrated foglight, turn signals and marker lights. It might take an hour of labor to build at the parts supplier, but only a few seconds to install in the final assembly factory.

This effect makes it almost impossible to figure out how many labor hours go into making a car. If definitely can't be compared to the early Ford plants that took in iron ore, rubber and sand, and put out completed cars (Rouge and Highland Park).


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## aeroscott (Jan 5, 2008)

My dad and I worked in the auto industry . it's all just adding up time ,they and I know the numbers . 100 years of reducing labor coasts second by second have led to great gains .


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## Ziggythewiz (May 16, 2010)

It's surprising how efficient part molds and nimble Chinese fingers can be.


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## aeroscott (Jan 5, 2008)

even on the repetitive production line , I am amazed by the learning curve . the time study people count in the 100th. of a second . The largest sub assembly I could think of would be the engine , measured in minutes . 25 years ago I read about a crank shaft turning machine that could turn a raw crank in 30 seconds . back in the 60's GM said the small block cost them $50 to produce and auto trans was $75 , in the 80's a full car frame sold with good profit for $75 ( with uaw labor).You should have seen the frame lines run , 200 ipm welding speed ,1000 lbs spools of welding wire, 2000 frame rails/ shift/ crew . Noting but huge profits for the sub contractor , claiming 3% profit on stock report but actually making 200% /year on total investment . They expressed it this way , if we build a production line if it doesn't pay for itself in 6 months , we will do something else. A very tightly held secrete. Everyone in the world builds cars , because they make so much money.


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## PhantomPholly (Aug 20, 2008)

News Bot said:


> Adults between the ages of 21 and 34 buy just 27 percent of all new vehicles sold in America, a far cry from the peak of 38 percent in 1985.
> 
> More...


A few reasons come immediately to mind. 

One: Since the raise in minimum wage many companies stopped hiring "interns." For the amount of minimum wage, they can get experienced people for the same money - so young kids out of school can't get that important "first job experience" and are sitting on the bench much longer than they used to.

Two: Runaway spending by our government has companies holding onto cash reserves. Rather than hiring, they are cutting jobs to save costs.

Three: With the draw down in jobs created by the economic downturn plus the two reasons above, there is a HUGE backlog of experienced people on the bench. New folks are less likely to get hired, or get hired at a rate sufficient to consider new cars, as long as this situation continues.


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## dladd (Jun 1, 2011)

to me, the point of the article seemed to be that young americans are not buying cars at all. It's not just that people can't afford to buy new, but that they are choosing to go without at all. Some of it is financial of course, but some of it is a different mindset around transportation. In my area, I see zipcars all over the place, I think more and more young city dwellers are going this route.


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## PhantomPholly (Aug 20, 2008)

dladd said:


> to me, the point of the article seemed to be that young americans are not buying cars at all. It's not just that people can't afford to buy new, but that they are choosing to go without at all. Some of it is financial of course, but some of it is a different mindset around transportation. In my area, I see zipcars all over the place, I think more and more young city dwellers are going this route.


City-dwellers I get. However, historically any kid with money in his pocket wants to spend it - particularly on status items like a car.

If they aren't buying new cars at all, it's because they're broke.


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## dladd (Jun 1, 2011)

PhantomPholly said:


> particularly on status items like a car.


perhaps cars aren't the status items now that they were when we were kids?

who am I to say, I've been out of this demographic for quite a while now...


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## somanywelps (Jan 25, 2012)

dladd said:


> perhaps cars aren't the status items now that they were when we were kids?
> 
> who am I to say, I've been out of this demographic for quite a while now...


I'm early 20's and no, they aren't status items anymore, it's gadgets now... (iphone and other smartphones and gadgets). A car is nothing more than something to get you to work and back. You can carpool with others when you're not on facebook.

I'm an engineer so I'm much more function over form, which is I think why we're all here.


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## PhantomPholly (Aug 20, 2008)

dladd said:


> perhaps cars aren't the status items now that they were when we were kids?
> 
> who am I to say, I've been out of this demographic for quite a while now...


... and perhaps kids today are just frugal, and perhaps if bullfrogs had wings they wouldn't bump their butts when they landed...

I'm not buying that. Technology changes, people don't.


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## lowcrawler (Jun 27, 2011)

PhantomPholly said:


> I'm not buying that. Technology changes, people don't.


People haven't changed -- what has changed is what qualifies as a status item.

Cars -- especially new, needlessly expensive and inefficient cards, have dropped in status. Other things have moved up to take their place. An iPad 3 is going to draw more Ooohs and Ahhs than a new Audi A4.


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## Tatsushige (Mar 24, 2011)

I think it also depends what country you are in ... for the Kids in Australia and the UK a new car is top of the list ... here in Japan I know about 30 people that have a drivers license and have the money to buy a Rolls Royce but are not interested in owning a car and happy with push bike.

Me it was always a Lamborghini Countach or Diablo home build with a BMW V12 full leather and Black ... now in my 40's it is a EV and nothing else. I have the money to buy a 2nd hand Countach or order a Muricelago Replica from Extreme's in the UK ... but I no longer have the bug for ICE powered cars ... I want to buy a LEAF but at the moment I have no where to park a car and in Japan if you do not have somewhere to park your vehicles you cannot purchase one. Street parking is illegal in Japan ... There is a parking spot about 500meters from my house, but at $600 a month in rent for a car space, I will wait until I move up to Kawasaki at the end of this year instead.


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## PhantomPholly (Aug 20, 2008)

lowcrawler said:


> People haven't changed -- what has changed is what qualifies as a status item.
> 
> Cars -- especially new, needlessly expensive and inefficient cards, have dropped in status. Other things have moved up to take their place. An iPad 3 is going to draw more Ooohs and Ahhs than a new Audi A4.


I might be willing to accept that idea if it were a gradual shift. It wasn't.

They're talking about a sudden major statistical change. Attitudes don't change as quickly as the economy did recently. When that happened, BOTH of the sources of money available to kids (money they earn themselves, money gifted by generous parents) dried up and blew away.

Your theory imagines a rosy world where conscientious youngsters suddenly "realize they were being foolish in their pursuit of frivolous items." 

Hogwash...



P.S. That is not to discount that SOME of that change may have come for the reasons you suggest. However, I'll refrain from conclusions on that until we see another up economic cycle.


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## lowcrawler (Jun 27, 2011)

PhantomPholly said:


> Attitudes don't change as quickly as the economy did recently.


You haven't been connected to the high school world for many years, have you? Trends come and go in spans of weeks and months... A 3 year downturn is a LONG TERM change at that level.



> Your theory imagines a rosy world where conscientious youngsters suddenly "realize they were being foolish in their pursuit of frivolous items."


You clearly weren't reading.

Frivolous, wasteful and stupid status items are still just as, if not more, important to the 15-30 year old crowd as the were in years past. It's just those status items have changed. Like I said, a new iPad 3 is going to make you king for a day considerably more so than a new Celica.


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## coulombKid (Jan 10, 2009)

*Looking back.*

Forty years ago the longest payment book only ran 36 months because it was considered a "miracle" to drive a car 100,000 miles. Insurance was optional if you had assets in the states I grew up in. Now the average payment book most likely runs 60 months and you can get them to at least 72 months. The bankers have a secured investment in "your" car and don't even have to get off their assets looking for a new host for a lot longer. The insurance companies have contributed enough to state legislature races to write their own rules (that any jury of 12 would throw out). Two of my child hood friends have amassed assets in the millions. They are both State Farm agents. Most manufacturing jobs I had (before transferring out to the service industries) had been engineered out of existence or out-sourced over seas long before any car payment book could loose all its pages. If you go to any car show you don't see as many hotty babes ( of any age ) as you did years ago. The gals have gotten smarter and wealthier. The proof is the number of trust fund babes at Barrett Jackson writing their own check for the classics.
I agree with my children's view that cars are a real bad deal. Under no condition could one actually call them "an investment". Maybe this generation can cut through the bull that's been so prevalent ever since GM bought the street cars in California and crushed them. Does that mean that the crushing of the EV1 was just history repeating itself?


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## caffinefiend (Dec 14, 2009)

It's an alien concept to me. At 60 I've owned cars since I was 14 and have never been without. I know folks in there 20s without car or liscense, but it seems so constricting to me. 
I've asked them why and gotten the answer that at this stage in their life they don't need a car. Then asked when they might need one and gotten the answer that if they ever married and had a familyto haul around they'd concider getting a vehicle.

Conversely, I know just as many who do have cars.


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## somanywelps (Jan 25, 2012)

*Re: Looking back.*



gottdi said:


> That is why old cars are so cool to have. They still hold the appeal. Too pricey for many today.


But they don't do much other than look good.

Newer cars are safer, faster, handle better, and are more comfortable...


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## dladd (Jun 1, 2011)

*Re: Looking back.*



gottdi said:


> Cars are not as much status today as back then because most of the cars today are so bland. Ooooooo lets go get a a real cool Chevy Chevette and cruise the strip. Every thing is so ticky tacky and all the same. Low power and just not much there to write home about.
> 
> Pete
> 
> That is why old cars are so cool to have. They still hold the appeal. Too pricey for many today.


seriously? When did the chevette go out of production, mid 80's? There are tons of cool cars out there (depending on your definition of cool of course), Scion, Element etc. Plenty of powerful cars out there too. My 1969 Chevelle with a 327 was rated at a whopping 210 hp. I'm pretty sure my minivan would have smoked it in a race. Probably most new cars would.

New cars are better in every way, except for nostalgia, which only us old folks care about... 

There are only 2 things I can really remember saving every penny I earned for. My chrome Mongoose, and my first car. Both symbols of freedom and status to me and my friends at the time. I bought my first car when I was 15 (it was a definite fixer upper project), and got my drivers license on my 16th birthday. No question, it was the most important thing in my life at that time! Hard for me to imagine otherwise, but times do apparently change...


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## lowcrawler (Jun 27, 2011)

*Re: Looking back.*



somanywelps said:


> Newer cars are safer, faster, handle better, and are more comfortable...


... and they all look the exact same, basically. Looking the 'same' isn't cool, regardless of how safe it is (you think young'ns care about saftey features?).


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## mk4gti (May 6, 2011)

I feel that young people around here tend to live with mom and dad until their mid 20's. They use mom & dad's car when they need a car. My point of view, not based on any statistics.....


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## somanywelps (Jan 25, 2012)

*Re: Looking back.*



lowcrawler said:


> ... and they all look the exact same, basically. Looking the 'same' isn't cool, regardless of how safe it is (you think young'ns care about saftey features?).


All the japanese cars look the same, and some of the american ones.

Tesla, Fisker, BMW (non-suv), Porshe(non-suv), Lamborghini are the only cars I can identify on sight because they look different.

I can't tell a toyota from a honda, from a nissan without seeing the emblem.


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## rochesterricer (Jan 5, 2011)

*Re: Looking back.*

I can tell cars apart by just seeing their headlights at night. I think some of you are just really old and need glasses


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## lowcrawler (Jun 27, 2011)

My $3750 Beetle (even before the conversion) turned way way way more heads than my friends 50k Beamer. ... likely because even though very nice, his Beamer looks exactly like every other car on the road now-a-days.


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## somanywelps (Jan 25, 2012)

lowcrawler said:


> My $3750 Beetle (even before the conversion) turned way way way more heads than my friends 50k Beamer. ... likely because even though very nice, his Beamer looks exactly like every other car on the road now-a-days.


Probably because they're more of them.

Even from the front,side, or rear, bimmers are very different (headlights, front grill, window lines, side trim, tail lights, rear window).


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## PhantomPholly (Aug 20, 2008)

lowcrawler said:


> You haven't been connected to the high school world for many years, have you?


Nope. I have, however, read translations of Greek and Roman literature describing teenagers. They have not changed, except back then they wanted a horse or chariot.


> Trends come and go in spans of weeks and months... A 3 year downturn is a LONG TERM change at that level.


I absolutely agree, and as I said in my last post I believe that that may account for part of it.

However, a 3-yr downturn that "*just happens*" to coincide with the largest economic contraction since the Great Depression - and you sound like you don't think that that has any impact on it - leaves me extraordinarily skeptical. 

I think that the truth will be more evident when / if the economy ever is allowed by governments to recover.



> You clearly weren't reading.


Don't be snarky, I read every word you wrote - and gave it exactly as much credence as I believe it deserved given the facts in front of us.



> Frivolous, wasteful and stupid status items are still just as, if not more, important to the 15-30 year old crowd as the were in years past. It's just those status items have changed. Like I said, a new iPad 3 is going to make you king for a day considerably more so than a new Celica.


And all of that leads to kids buying economical cars, not NO cars. Well, we can both have our opinions and 10 years from now they'll say we were both wrong...


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## lowcrawler (Jun 27, 2011)

PhantomPholly said:


> However, a 3-yr downturn that "*just happens*" to coincide with the largest economic contraction since the Great Depression - and you sound like you don't think that that has any impact on it - leaves me extraordinarily skeptical.


I'm not at all saying it doesn't have anything to do with it. It likely does.



> And all of that leads to kids buying economical cars, not NO cars.


 and in most ways, the most economical car is a used car. 



> Well, we can both have our opinions and 10 years from now they'll say we were both wrong...


No argument there!


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## MN Driver (Sep 29, 2009)

mk4gti said:


> I feel that young people around here tend to live with mom and dad until their mid 20's. They use mom & dad's car when they need a car. My point of view, not based on any statistics.....


This sounds familiar to me, could be a college thing. If you are going to college and nobody is paying your way, you're a bit too broke to think about buying a new car. I'm not in this college age group now but when I was yip-snapping for my first car after I got my first real job I was around enough people complaining about how gas isn't going to be a buck a gallon anymore. I thought that right now would be when we'd be in the $2's, maybe $3 but driving over $4 per gallon with SUV's a blazing wasn't a thought. Now you've got the kids looking at fuel efficient new cars and they aren't able to get a new 52mpg highway car for $9,400 anymore like you could in 1991. A car that gets 50mpg is over twice that much and college kids don't make twice as much to make up for it. Then once they get to the point where they could afford a new car, they are off to buy a house and need that cash for a down payment.

It's easy for me to see how the new car gets delayed.


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## alexcrouse (Mar 16, 2009)

*Re: Looking back.*



dladd said:


> seriously? When did the chevette go out of production, mid 80's? There are tons of cool cars out there (depending on your definition of cool of course), Scion, Element etc. Plenty of powerful cars out there too. My 1969 Chevelle with a 327 was rated at a whopping 210 hp. I'm pretty sure my minivan would have smoked it in a race. Probably most new cars would.
> 
> New cars are better in every way, except for nostalgia, which only us old folks care about...



My 1974 Dodge Charger is rated at 180hp(closer to 250(new)hp, but they lied to insurance companies back then), and Smoked the life out of my 300hp Lexus. Having twice the torque helped. Also, never found a car as comfy as my big brown dodge! Oh, and it gets 20mpg, the lexus never beat 18 in its life.


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