# Good Donor Cars



## engineer_Bill (Jun 24, 2008)

I'm interested in my second build. The first was made easier by adding parts from models that were already electric I.E. the Toyota MR2 electric power steering. I have also heard about several models that have electric brakes. What I am looking for is a list of car models particually newer lighter models that already have electric parts or are easily electrified so that a conversion can be done with minimal work. I guess the Prius, if you could get your hands on one, would be the best as all you would have to do is upgrade the batteries and motor. The second best is the aforementioned MR2. Anyone else have suggestions etc. add on.


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## DavidDymaxion (Dec 1, 2008)

*Re: Good Doner Cars*

This is a somewhat different direction, but what about a really light kit car that didn't need power steering or power brakes?

There was a newer BMW model that had electric power steering -- it could actually change the steering ratio.


engineer_Bill said:


> I'm interested in my second build. The first was made easier by adding parts from models that were already electric I.E. the Toyota MR2 electric power steering. I have also heard about several models that have electric brakes. What I am looking for is a list of car models particually newer lighter models that already have electric parts or are easily electrified so that a conversion can be done with minimal work. I guess the Prius, if you could get your hands on one, would be the best as all you would have to do is upgrade the batteries and motor. The second best is the aforementioned MR2. Anyone else have suggestions etc. add on.


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

*Re: Good Doner Cars*

You're gonna hate me but I vote for an older saturn SL. 

Actually there were some GM cars in the early 80s like the 1st gen sunbird/cavalier that came with electric/hydraulic brakes (more powerful than vacuum boosted) because their tiny engines didn't make enough vacuum for the brakes. But they were about as common as hen's teeth even when they were new. Finding parts for such a car would be painfully expensive.

In the end its completely up to you what kind of car you want to build, but in my view, considering the amount of modding and structural changes to the car, adding an electric power steering and brake boost seems like a rather mild expense. As I have said to others, find a car that you really like and make that work. MR2, saturn or a 1974 valiant. They will all work.


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## rillip3 (Jun 19, 2009)

*Re: Good Doner Cars*

A quick bit of research shows that Toyota is converting pretty much everything they have to electric steering assist since 2002, which is good for your criteria. It may be easiest to look for a Toyota model you like, then look at it's owner's/mechanics manual/tech specs to see if it has the bits you're interested in. It also looks like the Honda NSX and the Honda S2000 have electric assist.

Ford is also switching to EPS, but it looks like they're just starting with the 2008 models, so you're kind of looking at a new car there. The 2008 Ford Escape, Mercury Mariner, and their respective hybrid models are fitted with EPS.

Again, not a comprehensive list, just a few minutes of Googling. Good luck with the second conversion! Are you keeping the old one or reusing its parts?


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## Nomad (May 8, 2009)

*Re: Good Doner Cars*

What would be the MAJOR draw back of using a twin shafted motor?

I mean anyone have an idea of how much you would lose pushing AC/PS/PB?
Like a serpentine belt setup? VS All Electric?


15-20%?


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## rillip3 (Jun 19, 2009)

*Re: Good Doner Cars*



Nomad said:


> What would be the MAJOR draw back of using a twin shafted motor?
> 
> I mean anyone have an idea of how much you would lose pushing AC/PS/PB?
> Like a serpentine belt setup? VS All Electric?
> ...


I've read that AC is nearly as bad as traction, i.e. 50%. I think the others would be relatively cheap, since there is not very much load on them most of the time.


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## Nomad (May 8, 2009)

*Re: Good Doner Cars*



rillip3 said:


> I've read that AC is nearly as bad as traction, i.e. 50%. I think the others would be relatively cheap, since there is not very much load on them most of the time.


I just ment more of a Compare.

Belt VS Electric.


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## rillip3 (Jun 19, 2009)

*Re: Good Doner Cars*



Nomad said:


> I just ment more of a Compare.
> 
> Belt VS Electric.


In theorey, it doesn't matter. If you take two units with the same efficiency and drive one via belt to the main motor and the other has an electric motor powering it, the resistance is the same, so you either increase the load on the motor by that much or increase the load on the batteries that much.

An EPS cuts on drain significantly over belt/motor driving hydraulics because it only needs to come on when steering is enganged. The AC belt v. motor is pretty much the same as above, only you would be able to use the AC at a stop, which is nice. Also adds slightly more weight with the motor.


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## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

*Re: Good Doner Cars*



rillip3 said:


> I've read that AC is nearly as bad as traction, i.e. 50%. I think the others would be relatively cheap, since there is not very much load on them most of the time.


It's not even close to that bad. One of the other members here, dimitri, reports that turning on the A/C increases power draw by a little over 1kW.


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## dimitri (May 16, 2008)

*Re: Good Doner Cars*



rillip3 said:


> I've read that AC is nearly as bad as traction, i.e. 50%. I think the others would be relatively cheap, since there is not very much load on them most of the time.


 Where did you read that? 50% of how much power? No manufacturer would ever build a vehicle that uses 50% of power to cool the cabin, that is just insane....

Speaking from personal experience, belt driven accessories are not wasting much more power that similar electrical driven accessories. People get hung up on few Watts difference in a car that uses 1000s of Watts to move, the difference is so small that its really negligible.

Having done electric PS in Miata and belt PS in Protege, I can tell you that either one works fine, do whatever you feel more comfortable with. Making a belt drive is a lot of mechanical work, putting in EHPS pump means more electrical wiring and hookup, depending on your skills and budget you can pick one vs. the other.

Contrary to popular argument, neither electrical nor mechanical PS pump uses much energy when car is driving straight line. Both systems just idle at that point, using perhaps 50-80 Watts of energy.

As for AC, I personally find it a lot cheaper and effective to reuse same OEM components and integration via belt system, than rigging some window AC unit with DC/AC converter, I mean c'mon, where is the sense in that???? I will probably get bashed for this statement, but its my strong opinion and I will stand by it 

Now, if there was an OEM electrical AC unit made for cars similar to electrical PS pumps and it cost less than $500, then its a different story, I would definitely consider it, but one doesn't exist, which tells you something. You think Toyota engineers created electrical PS pump and never thought of electrical AC unit? I doubt it. More likely its not very practical or efficient or cost effective, otherwise it would have been done by now.

The only option is that ridiculously overpriced Masterflux ( I hope I got the name right from the memory ) AC unit. Sure its nice, but $1000-2000, thanks but no thanks 

I am trying to measure how much power my AC takes in Protege and I am having troubles quantifying it. While cruising at typical 100-200 battery amps depending on cruising speed, I turn on the AC and I can't even sense any power loss or increased current. Fluctuations of my foot on a pedal due to road bumps are larger than fluctuations of AC on/off , so I can't properly measure it.

When trying to measure it at a stop, only idling the motor, I concluded that my AC takes about 10 Amps on the battery side, which means at 128V pack its about 1300 Watts, or about 2 HP, which is about the size of electric motor that people seek when trying to drive AC compressor, so I guess its about right.

Hope this helps, just throwing in my $.02


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## dimitri (May 16, 2008)

*Re: Good Doner Cars*

I just realized the answer to my own question of why major car manufacturers don't make electrical AC compressors.

Since ICE car only has 12V electrical source and AC needs about 2HP for a smaller car, and probably 4-5HP for huge SUVs and vans, that means they would need a small light electric motor capable of 100-200 Amps continuous duty, and that is a tall order.... and that is probably why you don't see an electric AC compressor next to that electric PS pump in Toyota MR2 or any other car.

MasterFlux units I believe are all higher voltage DC or AC units, thus require less amps to drive the motor, but require high voltage source on board or additional inverters.

BTW, all Mazda3's and probably other newer Mazdas have EHPS pumps.

If I was to do another good conversion on a good budget, I would go after 5 door Mazda3 , starting from 2004 model.


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## rillip3 (Jun 19, 2009)

*Re: Good Doner Cars*



dimitri said:


> Where did you read that? 50% of how much power? No manufacturer would ever build a vehicle that uses 50% of power to cool the cabin, that is just insane....


Honestly I can't recall, and am perfectly willing to accept that they didn't know what they were talking about, and/or my completely fallable memory has come into play.


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## Nomad (May 8, 2009)

*Re: Good Doner Cars*



dimitri said:


> I just realized the answer to my own question of why major car manufacturers don't make electrical AC compressors.


Toyota built one. Prius. And it just dawned on me while I know a shit ton about the hybrid system, I really know nothing else about the car.

So then if it's no more taxing on the system, the cost effective way is OEM belt driven with a Twin Shafted Motor.


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## dimitri (May 16, 2008)

*Re: Good Doner Cars*



Nomad said:


> Toyota built one. Prius. And it just dawned on me while I know a shit ton about the hybrid system, I really know nothing else about the car.
> 
> So then if it's no more taxing on the system, the cost effective way is OEM belt driven with a Twin Shafted Motor.


Well, see, this is exactly my point, Prius has a high voltage source on board, so its natural to drive a small high voltage electric motor with few amps of current to get 2-3 HP of power to AC compressor. I think I read that Prius has 200V battery. If it wasn't for high voltage, then it would not be that easy to come up with electric drive for AC compressor, since it would require much more current at lower voltage to get same power.


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## dimitri (May 16, 2008)

*Re: Good Doner Cars*



full house said:


> I got your point but I think 200V for the battery is not enough.


Hey, I just checked all your posts on this forum and every single one is a short cryptic message without much sense in it. It seems that you are an advertisment bot just posting to get attention to your signature info.

Are you for real?

EDIT: Thanks Moderators for cleaning up the thread, the post I am referring to has been deleted.


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## Nomad (May 8, 2009)

*Re: Good Doner Cars*



dimitri said:


> Hey, I just checked all your posts on this forum and every single one is a short cryptic message without much sense in it. It seems that you are an advertisment bot just posting to get attention to your signature info.
> 
> Are you for real?


HAHAHA, I thought you were talking about me at first. and I was thinking... Cryptic.. Maybe because I have problems getting my ideas down on paper.. 

Anyways, Would you agree that as far as converting it would be just cheaper to keep whatever system is already in place?And not have a major effect on range either way vs. Converting to full electic.


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## dimitri (May 16, 2008)

*Re: Good Doner Cars*



Nomad said:


> Anyways, Would you agree that as far as converting it would be just cheaper to keep whatever system is already in place?And not have a major effect on range either way vs. Converting to full electic.


Absolutely, its definitely cheaper to keep OEM accessories and effect on range is not much different than having those accessories run by separate motors. 

However, if you didn't want AC and only wanted PS, then I would recommend EHPS pump even at additional cost for 2 reasons. One, unless you idle the motor, PS would not work until you start moving, which may get tricky if you are manuvering in tight parking space. Two, rigging a belt drive just for PS alone seems like an overkill to me.

If you absolutely want to keep AC, you also have to accept the fact that it would not run at stops unless you idle the motor.

Hope this helps.


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## Nomad (May 8, 2009)

*Re: Good Doner Cars*



dimitri said:


> One, unless you idle the motor, PS would not work until you start moving, which may get tricky if you are manuvering in tight parking space. Two, rigging a belt drive just for PS alone seems like an overkill to me.
> 
> If you absolutely want to keep AC, you also have to accept the fact that it would not run at stops unless you idle the motor.
> 
> Hope this helps.


I have nothing for your first point.. it's great. I didn't think about tight spaces.

I live in FL. No AC a bad smell for my leather @ 110 in the summer.

And it does, I never even considered needing a dual shafted motor.. now I know I need one. Maybe....

I wonder if I can just install a 2nd Much Much Smaller motor to handle all the extra's and how small would be too small. PS/AC is all I can think of unless I wanted to skip a DC/DC converter and run an Alt.

Damn, sorry man I need to quit hijacking threads.


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## Zukiru (Sep 22, 2008)

*Re: Good Doner Cars*

the 88 through 91 Subaru XT6 has an electronic PS pump

speed sensitive but you have to have the car's computer to run that.


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## engineer_Bill (Jun 24, 2008)

It is always cheaper to use the OEM accesaries that is why I started this thread. The main benefit I am looking for is to minimise the use of belts and belt driven PS, AC, etc... There is a fairly big overhead for the belt driven PS pump for example it takes time to build pressure if not idled, it has high drag especially at high speeds when you use steering the least. The Toyota MR2 pump I installed in my car uses half the amps of driving a belt pump. It would have taken a great deal less effort to have used a car that already has one, I.E. the Toyota MR2. Good call on the Mazda that is also a small light weight car. I cant wait until hybrids start hitting the junkyard I would like to get my hands on one.


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## dimitri (May 16, 2008)

engineer_Bill said:


> I cant wait until hybrids start hitting the junkyard I would like to get my hands on one.


The issue with hybrids is that ICE and EM are so tightly integrated that I am sure there will be tons of issues to fool the ECU to run without ICE, plus builtin EM may not be big enough to run on its own at higher speeds, so what are you going to do? Add 2nd EM to a hybrid? Sounds a bit odd 

I did lots of research on Toyota Prius and everything I read says that it can only run on EM up to 40 mph, with all the mods and hacks. I am not aware of anyone who hacked a Prius to run pure EM, please post a link if you have any info that says otherwise. If this was possible, people would dump ICE from Prius and put more batteries and have a clean perfect EV.

And Prius is the most known for EV hacks, others are even more mysterious and unlikely to run on EM alone.


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