# Honda IMA



## Tomdb (Jan 28, 2013)

Anyone looked into the Honda IMA drives?

Both the inverter part and the motor section look good. The highvoltage drivers are separate from the brain box so might be easily adapted.

Also the highvoltage drivers are going for low bucks, 100-200 bucks usually for the complete set of dc-dc, compressor driver and motor inverter.

Anyone know of projects reusing honda parts?


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## samwichse (Jan 28, 2012)

The motor sucks. It has no bearings! The stator hangs off the end of the crankshaft and the casing is just a spacer between the engine and transmission. Lots of custom work to get a motor with a peak output of ~20kw.


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## Tomdb (Jan 28, 2013)

yes I know, how ever the inverter side of things is very interesting.
Got some quite complete documentation of the operation and pin outs of various years. 

The ima motor can be had very cheaply and the 20 kw peak is just rotation and cooling limited. It has quite a high torque output, so some custom engineering can result in quite a nice package.


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## Tomdb (Jan 28, 2013)

i jumped then gun and got a good deal on a inverter power module (PDU or what ever you want to call it code: 1B100-RMX-A13) and a IMA motor complete with sensor setup.


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## samwichse (Jan 28, 2012)

At least for the first gens, 20kw is the point right before saturation of the magnets occurs.


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## Tomdb (Jan 28, 2013)

Torque, amps, can saturate magnets. Power is torque at speeds, so using higher voltages then the rated 140v of the Civic IMA I should get a broader torque curve, thus more power. 

However I will do experiments to find out what the limits are of the motor and inverter power electronics.


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## Tomdb (Jan 28, 2013)

Got my motor and power electronics in today. Motor is alil bigger than expected. 

The power electronics look quite good the caps are rated at 600v 460uf and smaller snubbers included. So a ready to go package, now to get my pinning sorted and get try to test the outputs.

The power electronics has part number 1B100RMXE07


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## Tomdb (Jan 28, 2013)

Might have gotten myself in alil too deep with this one, One generation too high maybe.

Looks like this one got more intelligence than i would want, canbus communication.  So i would need to get a hybrid to decipher the canbus.


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## bigmotherwhale (Apr 15, 2011)

I had a look at the IMA drives and controllers, i thought their maximum voltage was 144 volts and the power output was 20kw? which is great for bike conversions or go carts but a little low for a car, what are you plannning on making with it? 

love to see the pictures btw looks like some really nice hardware.

btw I was sure the older version of this just had six outputs for controlling each switching transistor and the outputs for the current sensors, i think you may be right to say you would be better with one of those.


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## Tomdb (Jan 28, 2013)

do you see the pictures posted? These are of the parts i have now.

Digging through the insightcentral forums for info if some-one has cracked the IMA-canbus. 

Planning on getting this "inverter" MCM or whatever you want to call it running, and then upping the voltage till it cuts out. As far as an vehicle I have not made a choice yet.


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## bigmotherwhale (Apr 15, 2011)

yeh i do see the pics, i was saying they looked good.


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## samwichse (Jan 28, 2012)

No one has cracked the gen2 and up IMA CANBUS that I know of. 

The first gen Insight uses a combination of serial/PWM, the first gen HCH uses serial.


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## samwichse (Jan 28, 2012)

BTW, you should really contact Peter Perkins (retepsnikrep on insight central). He's pretty much the guy when it comes to hacking on these systems.


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## Tomdb (Jan 28, 2013)

Yes i found that out. Ill try to get in touch with him. Ill try booting the inverter with a usb canbus interface on both canbusses.

First gen, the inverter section atleast uses just pwm control and voltages.


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## Tomdb (Jan 28, 2013)

Used the pin outs to hook up the inverter.

Draws 0.67 amps at 12volts when active and spits out data on both the IMA can and Standard can bus. So it seems to be a working unit.


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## coleasterling (Feb 29, 2012)

Tom, 

I did pretty much the same as you. The motor/housing isn't too bad to deal with and the inverter shouldn't be too difficult using one of the Lebowski or Eldis solutions. When you remove the top board, you have direct access to the IGBT drivers and IGBT's. One trick is that the power to the drivers is on the top board, so you either need to keep the top board for power while disconnecting the PWM's, or provide external power. Lebowski's board might be easier to use without the top board, Eldis's, with. 

The motor, again, is fairly easy to deal with. The rotor is easily adapted (no splines!) and he housing is pretty easily made. You could use the stock aluminum housing if you'd like, but it is pretty bulky and it would be more difficult to integrate liquid cooling.


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## Tomdb (Jan 28, 2013)

You got any progress that you care to share with us? Any pictures of the module without the top board?

If i get tired to trying to reverse engineer the canbus, ill dive into the topboard to find where the driving signals are located. 

This weak I am going to hook the resolver onto the inverter and see if i get any other canbus messages, then hook up a voltage to the HV input and check again.


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## coleasterling (Feb 29, 2012)

I'm not home yet from a vacation, but will get some stuff posted here later in the week. 

I didn't think it was worth dealing with the canbus and figured from the start that I would use one of the replacement control boards to run the IGBT's. I assumed (possibly incorrectly) that you'd always be limited to the same power as in the car if you tied to use the stock control board. I want to put far more than 14kW through it.


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## Tomdb (Jan 28, 2013)

Yea it be great if the canbus is easy. However i doubt it and most likely this control is to smart for its own good. 

But i the power electronics parts and bus caps are a good deal for the price. Found your post on "any AC motor". Mind if i post them here so I can gather all the info in one thread?


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## coleasterling (Feb 29, 2012)

That's exactly why I started it. There are a million of them out there and they could be a cheap solution for an electric bike or very small car. I bought my motor for $100 and full controller assembly (like yours) for $25. Too cheap not to try, even with the development costs.


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## evforme? (Jul 23, 2015)

Finally a current thread on the system I want to convert an old bobbed kawi 454 ltd I have in the back yard to electric, I can pick the 06-11 gen IMA civic motor on ebay for 180$ (CAN) and I got a bunch of free gel cell 12v batteries from soem UPS's. I'm thinking 15kw is pleanty, it's not going to be a racer.

So I'll be looking forward to see some controller and mounting solutions, I live on a hill so I'd like to see some regen one day.


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## coleasterling (Feb 29, 2012)

I realized I never posted pictures back here after getting an email notification of a post in the thread. Here they are:


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## coleasterling (Feb 29, 2012)

You can see that the top board kind of floats directly on top of the IGBT's and their drivers. The white rectangles in picture two are all the connections to the drivers from the top board. There are 11 in all. I haven't identified all of them, but four are +-17V and one a constant 5V.


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## coleasterling (Feb 29, 2012)

These are old and life has gotten in the way, but I still have plans for this. 1998 CR250, originally planned on running NiMH hybrid cells since they were the cheapest option at the time. Leaf and Volt cells have now made those a pretty poor bargain.


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## Tomdb (Jan 28, 2013)

That might work, I bet and plate to mount where the motor was would be quite pricey to get made. You could get away with a single sided bearing setup with two bearings. 

Could you explain what it took to get the top board off? 
Thinking about getting some more documentation to together, so powering it up and measuring all the voltages for the interfaces, to the drives and sensors.


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## coleasterling (Feb 29, 2012)

You're not going to like my answer to that one...

I just pulled it and wobbled it around until it came apart. I don't see any easy way to desolder and remove the board nicely. You have to break those wires apart as far as I can tell. 

I'll be designing and fabricating an entire motor enclosure. I own a machine shop and have a degree in ME, so no biggie. I am going to try to do it in a way that will be fairly inexpensive for others to copy and that will allow motors to be stacked. The stock housing is nice, but is very bulky and not great for liquid cooling.


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## evforme? (Jul 23, 2015)

Would that cover plate need to be non ferrous? Have you figured out your gearing yet?


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## coleasterling (Feb 29, 2012)

As far as it being non-ferrous, I wouldn't think it matters. Mine will be aluminum just for weight savings. 

No idea on gearing, yet. It will likely have to run a jackshaft (maybe through swingarm pivot with some mods?) I'm still in the, "get the motor finished and turning" phase of this project. I'll also have to develop an encoder solution for it. As far as I know, neither the Lebowski brain or Eldis' solution is capable of taking resolver input yet.


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## Tomdb (Jan 28, 2013)

coleasterling said:


> You're not going to like my answer to that one...
> 
> I just pulled it and wobbled it around until it came apart. I don't see any easy way to desolder and remove the board nicely. You have to break those wires apart as far as I can tell.
> 
> I'll be designing and fabricating an entire motor enclosure. I own a machine shop and have a degree in ME, so no biggie. I am going to try to do it in a way that will be fairly inexpensive for others to copy and that will allow motors to be stacked. The stock housing is nice, but is very bulky and not great for liquid cooling.


So the main board to the, gate drivers you mean?
I see that the current sensors are soldered, this will be the first thing im going to do after taking initial measurements.


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## coleasterling (Feb 29, 2012)

Yessir, that is correct. You have to desolder the current sensors first.


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## Tomdb (Jan 28, 2013)

how does the back of the big board look? 

So how is the connection made between the main board and IGBT, also soldered, the plastic makes me think some kind of spring connection?


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## coleasterling (Feb 29, 2012)

The black plastic pieces are floating on top of each other with springy, but solid connections. I think these may be put on the IGBT boards first, then the top board placed on and the connections soldered. There's no way to get the black pieces apart without breaking them. You may be able to get the top board off by desoldering all the pins from it.


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## Tomdb (Jan 28, 2013)

Sweet picture.

Made a pdf with my findings. I shall measure the gate drive signals with my scope now.

pins 6-9 in my labeling.

Could you post a picture of the back of the gate driver board?


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## coleasterling (Feb 29, 2012)

Sure, give me a bit to get one off again. I don't think I took any pictures when I had it apart.


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## Tomdb (Jan 28, 2013)

Hmm, this puppy is telling all its secrets already. Now lets ope it does not get scared when it decide to pwm one of the gate driver legs. 

Edit: looked at the gate driver schematic. Almost clear how it works. Going to look if I can get it switching and measure its response to determine if my assumptions are correct. In the meantime I update my document, please give me some feedback if you have a different idea.


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## Tomdb (Jan 28, 2013)

Between Inverter power on and 5 volts being on takes roughly 100ms. 

Time to hook up the arduino and take a look if i can just drive one of the two sides.


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## Tomdb (Jan 28, 2013)

ok i got the igbt working. 

Arduino pushing a 5v pwm and we are in like flynn, as my favorite electronics youtuber might say. 

Next step might be actually hooking up a brainboard from Johannes, and see how we do. 

I am not 100% sure yet if the controls are directly linked to driving the and low section or there is one pwm duty signal and one high low signal. 

First pic shows me driving a nearly 50/50 duty cycle, rough arduino code bashing. With 10us of forced delay, visable on turn on of the "high" side, however when driving "low high" the delay is gone. I wonder how this is happening.

Second pic shows 25% duty cycle for the High and low signal. Again one edge has the duty cycle missing. Got to test it with load next, because maybe these is some capacitance in there.

Last pic is my measuring setup. I will need to attack the signal application a little more structured so i can derive what pin does what. 

Right now I am just using; Pin 7 as a ground pin 6 and 8 as driving signals. 

So keep tuned for further testing to come, including mapping the current sensors, lets hope these puppies are linear.


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## coleasterling (Feb 29, 2012)

That's great progress!! 

Where did you get a gate drive schematic?? I took some closer pictures of the top of the drivers to hopefully help out. I looked up the number of the driver chip itself and called around everywhere I could...Probably put 10 hours into finding a datasheet and it was apparently proprietary to Honda so nothing is available.

I also realized why I never took a picture of the back side...

Edit: Realized I misunderstood you about the gate drive. Looks great so far!


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## Tomdb (Jan 28, 2013)

I did some analysis of the pcb layout to come up with the workings of the opto couplers 

I do not have any time today to fool around with different driving signals, will do that tommorow.


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## Tomdb (Jan 28, 2013)

Got it hooked up and the appropriate signals broken out.
Now i just have to figure out if I am correct that the signals are high and low side. Maybe I am wrong and it runs on a with a different signal set.

So more experimenting will be needed.


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## samwichse (Jan 28, 2012)

Totally different angle, but have you seen this?

http://www.insightcentral.net/forum...on/21887-imac-c-hch1-civic-15.html#post882457


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## Tomdb (Jan 28, 2013)

unfortunately this one generation older. 

I can get my hands on the second generation inverts for 100 euros a piece, so i think its worth putting sometime into this.


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## Tomdb (Jan 28, 2013)

She lives. Made some dumb mistakes on my part.

updated my documentation. Now off to do some real testing next, with sensor feedback, need to make a mounting case for the control board first.

Now the main hurdle is getting the Motor into another housing.


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## bigmotherwhale (Apr 15, 2011)

great work, you have inspired me to have ago myself.
I saw a deal on a 2004 IMA inverter on ebay so i bought one to have a mess around with the intention of mating it with a Lebowski brain board, i think with water cooling it could make a neat little unit for an ebike or kart.

has anyone got the pin outs for this module? its the simpler one without the canbus to deal with. 

thanks all


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## Tomdb (Jan 28, 2013)

http://99mpg.com/Data/resources/downloads/relateddocuments/civic__schematics.pdf

http://www.insightcentral.net/forums/modifications-technical-issues/16206-inside-g1-mdm-more-power.html


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## bigmotherwhale (Apr 15, 2011)

Thanks tom  
The module i have seems smaller than the ones in the link to the insight forum, the connectors goes into the side instead of the top but all the wires are the same colour. I have an extra current sensor on the battery input.

The wiring look pretty simple, too simple does this module have the DC DC converters intergrated inside it? i was expecting lots of isolated input volatges for the drivers.

is this correct?
BRN / YEL wires ground?
and the IPUA the Input voltage 12 - 15v ?

I have no idea what the pink wires do, are they for communication or are these for the isolated voltage sources?


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## coleasterling (Feb 29, 2012)

Pink wires in the module Tom and I have are CAN. I don't think I've seen a module like what you're describing. Do you have some pictures of it apart?


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## bigmotherwhale (Apr 15, 2011)

here are the pics you requested

do you know whether you need to drive these with isolated voltage sources?


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## Tomdb (Jan 28, 2013)

Please take it apart further. 

Especially the cover of the igbt module, this can tell us whether or not the gate drivers are on there (most likely). Then you just need to find out what the 12V active signal/supply is.


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## bigmotherwhale (Apr 15, 2011)

I found capacity between the two pink and two brown yellow wires with a multi meter so my suspicions were this is the 15v input, taking the top off i found what i was hoping to find, obvious power input a dc dc converter and gate drivers  sweet


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## Tomdb (Jan 28, 2013)

figure out the 12v supply. then power it up and start measuring.


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## bigmotherwhale (Apr 15, 2011)

Tomdb said:


> figure out the 12v supply. then power it up and start measuring.


The power supply is figured.
the two pink wires which are joined together at the module are + 
and the two brown yellow wires which also join at the module are ground. 
There are six other output wires for the phases which are correctly labeled on the pdf you sent. 

Im thinking of getting a lebowski controller as the 3x current sensors are perfect 
has anyone got any recommendations?


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## bigmotherwhale (Apr 15, 2011)

I powered up the module, it takes 200ma on idle and you can hear the converter, inputs are held low. im going to try putting voltage into them starting with 5v. I decided am going to get the lebowski chip.


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## Tomdb (Jan 28, 2013)

Working on modeling the inverter in CAD for placement in the vehicle. Also this way I can investigate integrating the inverter board into the oem enclosure.


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## coleasterling (Feb 29, 2012)

Looking good, Tom! 

I am having a heck of a time finding extra time to work on this thing. I'm now hoping to get models done for the motor housing over Christmas.


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## Tomdb (Jan 28, 2013)

No problem, No hurry on my side either. Got a hunderd and one projects going on. Got the heatsink roughed in.

Now time to rough in the main pcb, height and populate some room critical components.


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## Tomdb (Jan 28, 2013)

got the main pcb roughed in, some large components and mounting pegs.

This way i can get a sense of the room, or better the lack of room under the original cover.

The standaard build wont fit, main board with the stm32 card. This means it will have to be an micro onboard design. to have any chance of fitment.


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## Tomdb (Jan 28, 2013)

Some testing with the Lebowski controller to get a bldc running resulted in me blowing a lowside IGBT/driver so my current unit is toast. 

Time got get a new one. 

Lesson learned, reduce PWM frequency, was running the Lebowski default 18khz (mosfet output stages), will run it at 4-8 khz next time. However this will allow me to measure the current sensor scaling.


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## Tomdb (Jan 28, 2013)

Got a current transformer out of the inverter, nice compact units, probably all three combined worth the purchase price of the inverter alone.

5 volt vcc with offset of ~2.5v and a scaling of 5.8mv/amp giving you a use able range at 2 volt difference of 350 amps. 

My second inverter should be in this week, and then on with more testing. Hopefully not destructive this time.


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## 67BGTEV (Nov 1, 2013)

Wow, This looks interesting.
Tom, Could you please look at my thread for using 2007 LEXUS GS 450H INVERTER G9200-30030 to drive Remy HVH250  and provide your input on what are the things I need to get this rolling?


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## Tomdb (Jan 28, 2013)

Got the Lewboski controller working with my board, time to design a PCB for a more permanent install. Will try get and get video's tomorrow.


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## bigmotherwhale (Apr 15, 2011)

great work, i will be interested in seeing this build, what made you decide on the lebowski chip?


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## Tomdb (Jan 28, 2013)

price and complete sensorless drive and great support. 
It might be bad at starting underload. However I have some applications in mind where that wont be an issue.

Made an simple pcb that can run on 12v and should be able to be built into an IMA housing. The waiting for the pcb takes the longest.
Also a quick CAD mock-up looks like the new board wil just fit above the existing parts and below the case, need to dremel out some plastic ribs to make fit, but that should not be a problem.


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## Tomdb (Jan 28, 2013)

Done some baking.

This is the brains of the controller, condensed to the smallest form without getting the smd version of the main chip. (Flashing the chip needs to be done by the guy who is supplying it with the software)

Currently it measures 48mm by 65mm, so installing it in the black housing above the main board should be possible. However only one way to find out, so this week testing then mounting.


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## coleasterling (Feb 29, 2012)

Tom, you've done some amazing work! Someday I'll find time to finish the motor housing and make one for you. Thank you so much for doing this!


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## evforme? (Jul 23, 2015)

Any more progress? I'm going to pick up a 2nd gen civic set or an accord one next good deal that comes up. Do you think one of these modules could be made to power 2 motors?


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## Tomdb (Jan 28, 2013)

Long pause, number of work related issues. Working abroad for a stint of 3 months then deciding to call it quits and move to the UK to do some contracting work. Settling down now and had some time to work with the board, to report; Can bus not working (no clue why but not essential), motor is spinning again.

This means I can package the small board into the inverter housing and sort out the connectors for my conversion. Leaning towards pigtails with superseal connectors because that what I have at hand. I will also test now with a system voltage of 110 volts, the ima inverter should be rated around 200v (rough specs of the gen 2 system)

The beer is in the picture because it has the same name as my father (except the saint part)

small video of the test https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=deUlqjwdXz8


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## Tomdb (Jan 28, 2013)

Tested the controller with two packs in series to give me roughly 110V. Oh boy does this motor want to go now, need to ofcourse do some tuning on the motor controller combo once I am happy with everything. 

My homemade pcb fits in the oem enclosure after some dremeling away of the reinforcing ribs in the plastic. Looks almost stock except my rats nest sticking out of it. This will be sorted once I get some decent wire, already have a assortment of ampseal connectors which are perfect for this.

Had some small issues with the Honda IMA inverter shutting down, turns out the oem controller got spooked by the pulses it was seeing. So I cut the traces, now this puppy revs even harder. Next tests are at 165v and 200v however these might get into oiling issues.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zTDh4V0WTe4


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## Tomdb (Jan 28, 2013)

Have had some major set backs at 220v. Turns out that now the EMC interference from the controller, motor and cables now is affecting the 5v rail so much the IC will not run the FOC calculation. 

I have attached a scope trace of a 5v pin on the IC. These oscillations occur at the same frequency as the switching frequency or double the switching frequency.

I have gone as as to attach 100nf caps directly to the DIP package pins, however this has not helped. Any input would be greatly appropriated.


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## kennybobby (Aug 10, 2012)

That oscillation looks like about 3.75 to 4.2 MHz so you could try to raise your cap to 10 uF to lower the impedance at that frequency and squelch the oscillation.

Also may need to put a braided shield (grounded at one end) around the motor leads to nip it at the source


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## Tomdb (Jan 28, 2013)

Thank you for the reaction, been working on it some more. Decided to go for broke and just completely isolate everything, so no, there is no electrical connection between my "new" hadware, the lebowski board and the inverter. 

I sniped the current sensors free and wired them directly to my board. This however changed nothing. the wave form I get now looks like this, keep in mind I did make some capacitance changes just to test a few hunches.

Now the oscillations are much smaller, 2/5 of a division at 200ns/div so should be around 12.5MHZ

Since this inverter is on the small side for the motor I want to use and the inverter itself is not in a metal housing things get kind of pointless to get high quality shielded cable.


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## kennybobby (Aug 10, 2012)

You could use aluminum foil from the kitchen to make a quick and dirty cable shield just to see if it helps.


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## bigmotherwhale (Apr 15, 2011)

what about putting an insulated shim against the bottom of the PCB tied to ground? or even putting the whole board in a tin box? could it be the 5v regulator thats picking up the EMI and amplifying it on the rail? 

Does this happen with the Remy as well as the MGR?


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## Tomdb (Jan 28, 2013)

The whole bottom side is already a ground plane. 
It had this issue on both motors, plus gets worse when I "ground" the motor casing to the inverter heatsink and worse when i ground it all to the power supply negative.


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## bigmotherwhale (Apr 15, 2011)

I was suggesting a magnetic shield, instead of a Faraday shield that you already have as the ground plane, which is not effective at high frequencies.


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## Tomdb (Jan 28, 2013)

I can confirm its EMC. The scope image is clip on scope ground and free probe.

Also the amount of shielding im experimenting with, so far no luck. Made a cardboard box with alu tape and covered the inverter with alu tape too.


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## zaxxon (Jul 11, 2009)

Do you still think the problem is the ringing you see when measuring the 5V at the chip? I think you just proved what you are seeing at the 5V is likely caused by scope ground lead/area pickup. If you have reasonable bypass caps at the chip the problem you’re facing is something else. More likely circulating currents between grounds caused by magnetic field coupling into your interface leads. 

Did you twist each of your current sensor output leads with a return line directly to connections at the current sensors? Did you use a terminating (plain R or series R/C type) at your chips current sense input pins? If you did not this is most likely your problem. You might get away with just using some termination at your chip. 

If above does not solve problem. Twist each of your phase drive leads with a ground wire from your board to the control card? Connect these ground leads as close as you can to your drive chips and the controllers input chips. This is more for providing lower ground impedance from you’re circuit card than signal quality. 

You are using a short twisted pair power leads from your card power to the controller card, right? 

If above does not solve problem. Extend twisted leads and move your board away from the controller. If this stops the problem then you need a better board layout to reduce its circuits pickup, area or some magnetic shielding material surrounding your circuit board.


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## kennybobby (Aug 10, 2012)

Thanks for posting the photo, it will help illustrate your problem.

The reason it gets worse when you 'ground' to the aluminum heat sink is because your shielding scheme has created a ground loop antenna. You have connected the motor frame to the wire shield and that is then connected to the inverter--so all the stray EM radiation is being routed into your inverter by this antenna.

Is your inverter heat sink actually defined and intended to be used as a ground junction--It may be intended as an 'earth' ground, but surely not for the negative return line of the DC supply? What inverter are you using, maybe the manual indicates earth grounding of the sink. 

i would recommend to wrap all three motor leads within one shield piece, not three separate, and then earth ground the shield at the inverter end only. Do not connect the motor housing to this shield, that just puts the motor noise right back onto the shield. 

In addition move the motor away from the inverter--make the gap as far as possible, and move the DC supply wires away from the motor also.

The DC supply wires could be loosely wrapped around each other to make a twisted pair to reduce their EMI potential, but i doubt they are the problem here.

The big mass of tiny control wires for the inverter may be picking up stray EMI also, but try shielding and earth grounding the big motor leads first and lets see the results.


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## Tomdb (Jan 28, 2013)

Thank you for all the feedback. The thread is on the Honda IMA inverter out of the civic. The mounting points for the inverter are on the heatsink, which mouths to a metal frame. So grounding through that should be "normal".

About the three wires one shield, very good point Honda does this standard with their motor phases. Should have thought of this earlier, now i get to peal off all the alu tape from the phases.

Measured the current sensor outputs and they look clean, just like the the switching out puts to the stages.


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## kennybobby (Aug 10, 2012)

That ground on the vehicle frame is 'earthed' back to the negative of the 12V battery, not the HV pack.

You can leave the individual wrapping, just enclose all 3 motor wires in 1, and remove the motor housing lead, plus move the motor as far away as possible.


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## Tomdb (Jan 28, 2013)




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## coleasterling (Feb 29, 2012)

Tom, thanks for the excellent work. Do you have a decent idea of current capability? The current sensors are up to 300A, correct?


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## Tomdb (Jan 28, 2013)

It will probably do 300A for a couple of seconds.


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## coleasterling (Feb 29, 2012)

I'm still thinking this is an ideal lightweight drive for a small motorcycle with 20-25kW peak, average around 10.


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## rmay635703 (Oct 23, 2008)

Posting my usual dumb questions 
Do you happen to have the original dimension of the ima with housing
Aka diameter and thickness are fine.

Reason I ask is that I think I could shoehorn this pancake into one of my D.C. Cars between the axle and motor adding regen and better power.

Speaking of which at 160v these things should still make usefull power around 5000rpm but likely not any faster, _ah well


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## hmincr (Jan 20, 2012)

Would someone that has messed with these Honda IMAs give a ball park estimate of costs of materials alone. Thanks


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## Tomdb (Jan 28, 2013)

Cost:

Honda IMA GEN2 inverter ebay 100-300 dollars
Lebowski IC or your IC of choice 10-30 dollars
PCB plus Electronic bits 10-20 dollars

So total would be around 150-400 dollars mostly dependent of your inverter base cost.


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## hmincr (Jan 20, 2012)

Thank you Tom. I am very interested because of the lower operating voltage. I am building a 3 wheel motorcycle using a 6 phase scooter motor as mid drive. This inverter would be ideal for a 170 volt machine with 2 inverters. 

Did some searching and the inverter can be had for $75.00-150.00 & up. Some of the ads say dc-dc was already sold, yet, someone stated they had an inverter that had the dc-dc inside the inverter ?

I deal with a used car parts outfit and might get a better price. 

Thanks again, Harold


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## Tomdb (Jan 28, 2013)

no lower limit since you will be overruling its own IC. The battery dc/dc and inverter are on one frame in the Honda.

Syncing up the inverters might be hard.


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## hmincr (Jan 20, 2012)

Actually, the 2 sets of phases are out of sync. My buddy has the motors running on 2 cheap controllers, but, I want dependable. 

I have Chevy Volt 30S batteryalready mounted temporarily in the modified frame, with room for a second set later on, or, using different cells altogether, and the 2 front wheel, tilting assembly somewhat constructed.


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## Tomdb (Jan 28, 2013)

This setup is not dependable if you do not know how to build it properly, or have experience with electronics.


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## hmincr (Jan 20, 2012)

After studying and observing all the photos, maybe some help along the way might be offered ?? 

I do have an older model scope and a signal generator. Just no experience with electronics, but, a real desire to learn enough to try this project. Others with no experience (Arlo1) for instance, knew nothing either, but received help and built a modded Leaf inverter that runs his car like a scalded dog. 

I am also trying to get my 12 year old step grandson into electronics. The kid is really interested in E-vehicle technology.

Thanks for your input, Harold


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## Tomdb (Jan 28, 2013)

I would say get in touch with someone on Endless-sphere and get a lebowski chip, or chip with a pcb and order the needed components to built it.


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## hmincr (Jan 20, 2012)

I have been a member on E-S for several years and am familiar with Lebowski and guys that have made boards for the chip. He has a newest version chip and several guys are having real success with using it. 

There are a couple members on this forum that have shown interest in your work, so, I'm hoping I can hitch my wagon to their journey and learn through their projects as well. 

Thanks, Harold


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## Matej (Dec 4, 2015)

Is anyone familiar with how the regeneration works with the IMA system? Which components are necessary for it?
I assume at least the motor and inverter are needed.

What I am thinking about doing is somehow 'jumping' the inverter so it is in constant regeneration mode, and mounting the IMA motor behind an ICE for a series hybrid setup. The nice thing is that the 2001-2005 IMA system is already made to regenerate 144V, so as long as I use a 144V battery pack and everything works out, it would be perfect. Or for slightly more power, the 2006-2011 system is 158V, which is still within tolerances for most EV conversion controllers.

The main problem is figuring out how to wire/'hack' the inverter for constant regen mode, and which components will be necessary for it. It may be very simple, or it may not be worth trying.

If anyone is more familiar with the system, I would appreciate any input.


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## Matej (Dec 4, 2015)

Matej said:


> The main problem is figuring out how to wire/'hack' the inverter for constant regen mode, and which components will be necessary for it. It may be very simple, or it may not be worth trying.


The big worry is that using the IMA as a generator (or 144V alternator) would require CANBUS sorcery. However, looking at the inside of the inverter, it does not seem to have much 'control' wiring coming out of it. I am hoping I could discard the ECU, and I would not need the 12V DC-DC converter either, since the ICE will have an alternator.


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## hmincr (Jan 20, 2012)

Regarding the Lebowski chip, I have read in a couple different threads that, a brushless controller can be used for driving a brushless and or an induction motor ? If I understood TomDB's comment, the Lebowski chip is only for bl/pm motors . Is this correct ? I'm trying to decide which Pcboard/controller to purchase for best and less expensive mating to the power electronics circuit. I would prefer something pre-programmed to start with.

I have a gen 1 Honda controller/dc/dc and battery charger unit, and soon, an E/assist alternator to try to get working. Been reading and studying electronics, and hope to not ask too many questions.
Thanks


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## Tomdb (Jan 28, 2013)

Induction motors or AC motors (so no magnets on the rotor) can be driven with the Lebowski chip. 

If you mean the e-assist motor then you need induction, so something like the Johannes Huebner (Another homebrew AC-controller) will work. Is some work but very well documented.


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## hmincr (Jan 20, 2012)

I have been reading the Huebner thread. I just need to take notes from the actual build and concentrate on digesting all that info.

Lebowski said he simply doesn't have the time to investigate and work on the software. 

I can buy the Holmes controller board populated once I get the general understanding in my head of the way the system works. 

Back to reading, over and over. 

Thanks for your input Tom.


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## onegreenev (May 18, 2012)

Tomdb said:


> Induction motors or AC motors (so no magnets on the rotor) can be driven with the Lebowski chip.
> 
> If you mean the e-assist motor then you need induction, so something like the Johannes Huebner (Another homebrew AC-controller) will work. Is some work but very well documented.


If you can solder you can build one pretty easy. If I can, anyone can.


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## hmincr (Jan 20, 2012)

I can solder. Just need to get a magnifier lamp so I can find the parts on the bench.  Need to contact Paul Holmes and verify his board will function with SR motor. Being he is in USA might make things easier than converting info from Germany, maybe not.

Priced a plane ticket and looks like I'm going to Fl on 4/26 for 2 weeks. 

Recently bought a like new Leaf battery and need to sell some modules to pay for all this equipment. Will put a sale notice in the classifieds as soon as I have verification of Fed-ex shipping.


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## ChazFisher (Sep 30, 2017)

Reviving this thread, because I have a project in mind. I'm working towards an electric motorcycle conversion, and this unit seems about the right rating. Mine is a part number 1B100-RMX-A08, out of a 2007 Civic Hybrid.



Tomdb said:


> Between Inverter power on and 5 volts being on takes roughly 100ms.
> 
> Time to hook up the arduino and take a look if i can just drive one of the two sides.


Tomdb, from the pinout you posted, and from the wiring diagrams on the AutoZone web site, it looks like pin 17 is battery power input and both pins 2 and 9 are ground. Is there any other input needed to power up? I've got a small benchtop lab supply (3A limit) connected to pins 17 & 2, but I'm getting nothing.


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## Tomdb (Jan 28, 2013)

That is just to provide power tot the onboard dc dc converter for the power stages.

You should see some current draw on you power supply.


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## ChazFisher (Sep 30, 2017)

Hmmm. Zero current. I verified the voltage is good at 12.0 V using my meter.

My intent is to use the isolated power supplies for the gate drivers, but patch in my own controller. Similar to what you did with the Arduino. I want to understand all the pins in those soldered connections down to the gate drive cards, since you didn't identify all of them - particularly the 1/2/3 pins on your sketch.

It doesn't look to me like the power from pin 17 of the connector goes directly to the power supply section. Take a look at this photo:









At the top of the pic, along the edge of the board, there are two SM capacitor footprints. On my board, the smaller part (C2) is installed, the larger (C5) is not. It _looks_ like those should be across the tracks carrying +12V and ground to the power supply section, and the right side is connected to ground. But the left side of those caps connects to pin 12 on the connector, not 17. Resistance measurement between 12 and 17 behaves like a capacitor charging up.

All the silkscreened ID numbers on the board match what's in your pictures. But could there be an artwork difference between yours and mine?


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## ChazFisher (Sep 30, 2017)

OK, I've got another post hung up in the ether, waiting for a moderator because it's the first one I posted with a picture. But in the meantime......

I went ahead and tried Pin 12 as the +12V input. (Actually, tracing tracks, pins 12 & 13 are tied together). With that as power input, I have +5V at the VCC pins on the current sensors, and the board is drawing 0.66A from my power supply. Success!! More to follow.....


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## ChazFisher (Sep 30, 2017)

Reviving a zombie thread here, but it's because I've had some results. I successfully spun a GM (Buick LaCrosse/Chevy Malibu) eAssist motor/alternator using a Honda IMA inverter. I removed the main processor and directly connected the gate drives and other signals to a controller based on Johannes Huebner's Openinverter.org design. And I believe I've successfully decoded all the connections to the IGBT gate drive modules. Writeup is attached.


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## coleasterling (Feb 29, 2012)

Sweet writeup! Thanks for the credit! I'm glad to see more people using these! Sweet little inverters, especially for the $$!


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## DavidTheAwesomeOne! (Mar 15, 2021)

ChazFisher said:


> Reviving a zombie thread here, but it's because I've had some results. I successfully spun a GM (Buick LaCrosse/Chevy Malibu) eAssist motor/alternator using a Honda IMA inverter. I removed the main processor and directly connected the gate drives and other signals to a controller based on Johannes Huebner's Openinverter.org design. And I believe I've successfully decoded all the connections to the IGBT gate drive modules. Writeup is attached.


Hi Chaz!
Is there a chance I could e-mail you?
I am not a newbie to reverse engineering or electronics, and programming, but my experience isnt great.
I am currently building a diy e-bike with a gen 1 motor, but planning on upgrading to the gen 2 bas motor, because it will be in a dirt bike.
If you would like to email me first, my email is [email protected]
Thanks, 
David


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## ChazFisher (Sep 30, 2017)

DavidTheAwesomeOne! said:


> Hi Chaz!
> Is there a chance I could e-mail you?
> I am not a newbie to reverse engineering or electronics, and programming, but my experience isnt great.
> I am currently building a diy e-bike with a gen 1 motor, but planning on upgrading to the gen 2 bas motor, because it will be in a dirt bike.
> ...


Just shoot me a pm here, and we'll go from there.


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## Stark (Jun 7, 2017)

Tomdb said:


> price and complete sensorless drive and great support.
> It might be bad at starting underload. However I have some applications in mind where that wont be an issue.
> 
> Made an simple pcb that can run on 12v and should be able to be built into an IMA housing. The waiting for the pcb takes the longest.
> Also a quick CAD mock-up looks like the new board wil just fit above the existing parts and below the case, need to dremel out some plastic ribs to make fit, but that should not be a problem.


Hi Tomdb,

i was wondering if you could share the schematics you made for the honda inverter with lebowski chip, that would be lovely and spare me quite the headache.

I am new and willing to learn, looking at your schematics might help me trace your route and understand the decisions you made.

Thanks!


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