# The Tailfeather Project - The Inhaler's (Hybrid) Stablemate



## Evilsizer (Jan 25, 2010)

i recall a link someone posted a while back when i started on here. there is a company that sells electric motors that are housed inside the bell housing. that might be worth looking into. if i recall right they were touting a 30kw motor in the bell housing.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Evilsizer said:


> i recall a link someone posted a while back when i started on here. there is a company that sells electric motors that are housed inside the bell housing. that might be worth looking into. if i recall right they were touting a 30kw motor in the bell housing.


I want a separate system driving the rear wheels so it will be AWD, and it will justify having big meaty-looking tires in back to match my bodywork. 

I will likely start with an old forklift motor, but have my eye on an AC-50 system. If I am able to drastically inflate the budget, the 100kw system on Dave Kois' site looks pretty nice. Hmmm, I could put a race-prepped 11" series motor, with a 2K controller for that price!


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

I love this one. It's the header pic for my site:


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

Nice one Todd.

If you use 'drive by wire' you could have the throttle switched from the gearshift. When it goes in neutral the ICE is disconnected both mechanically and electrically and the throttle then controls the motor.
Over rides would be needed though.

You could use a small motor, with low ratio gears, to drive it at such low speeds. A freewheel or sprag clutch would prevent it being overspeeded when driven by the ICE.
You would need to use the ICE for reverse though.

The other week when I picked up my welder the seller showed me some IRS diffs with forward and reverse selection built in. He said they were used for racing and allowed quick swapping of cogs for ratio and a lever on top to change direction either during a diff swap or via a control mechanism during use.
One of those would be good with a freewheel between it and the motor The motor would then be safe from overspeeding and yet still provide slow speed drive in both directions.
Unfortunately I didn't need one and so didn't check out the manufacturer or ratio options.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Woodsmith said:


> Nice one Todd...


Thanks Woody. As I said, this was my original plan it just didn't make a lot of sense until recently. I've been toying with the idea off and on for the past two years. When I did the real numbers on the Inhaler's proposed A123 pack I realized that it is actually possible - for a price.

There is a guy that posts on the NEDRA Yahoo Group that is building a 2000 amp, 345v, pack that will weigh under 150lbs! I think he said he would only have about 25 miles of range, but he is building a dedicated drag racer not a street car. That still caught my interest though because, money being no object, I _could_ build a 50-mile pack with awesome performance... I've since left that Yahoo Group so I don't have any additional info on his pack. I think they're pouch cells.





Woodsmith said:


> ...If you use 'drive by wire' you could have the throttle switched from the gearshift. When it goes in neutral the ICE is disconnected both mechanically and electrically and the throttle then controls the motor. Over rides would be needed though...


That's an interesting idea. It would take some mental adjustment though, because I am used to being able to rev the motor when in neutral. I might accidentally give it a little blip - right into the car in front of me!  An override button would solve that, but I would stil have to figure out a practical way to tell it I'm in neutral (car doesn't have a neutral indicator, or switch).





Woodsmith said:


> ...You could use a small motor, with low ratio gears, to drive it at such low speeds. A freewheel or sprag clutch would prevent it being overspeeded when driven by the ICE...
> 
> ...The motor would then be safe from overspeeding and yet still provide slow speed drive in both directions.
> Unfortunately I didn't need one and so didn't check out the manufacturer or ratio options.


I hadn't thought about motor speed either - good point. My Honda (base vehicle) can easily do 100+ mph. Even though the motor wouldn't be working then it would still be spinning. I need to figure out the sizes on the rear tires I plan to run, gear ratios in the current and future diffs, and see where it will put the motor. I prefer a bigger motor because I want to increase the amount of work the electric does over time. The stop-n-go traffic system is a "cheap" way to get it together and start testing the idea. Ideally, it would be nice to be able to drive on electric for all my errands, eventually. Probably either a 9 or 11" motor would be good for that, considering the weight of the car. Running on 48, then 72, then 96, then 144, etc it would be capable of growing with the system. The other thing is I wouldn't have to redesign any of the hard parts - just upgrade the pack and controller.

The other thing I forgot to mention is this is the vehicle I would like to pull the Inhaler around with. I was considering a turbo for hill-climbing power, but this fits the concept better. If I was towing the Inhaler, I woud be able to tap into its pack too, extending the range...


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

That's a good idea, the electric capability of the car can grow as battery technology does. The pack may keep the same maximum physical parameters and just increase energy stored.

If yoiu set up with a motor on a low voltage then it will happily drive at slow speeds anyway, creeping up as the pack improves. If the maximum speed of the car is within the safe limit of the motor then it won't matter what it is doing when the ICE is running.

The neutral gear switch can also control a big 'idiot light' on the dash indicating motor drive when the appropriate relays close on the throttle pot.

A loud electronic voice saying 'Warning! Electric drive engaged!' would be fun but annoying!
Just thinking of the film Alien where Mother, the Nostromo mainframe, does the count down to self distruct.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Woodsmith said:


> That's a good idea, the electric capability of the car can grow as battery technology does. The pack may keep the same maximum physical parameters and just increase energy stored...


Exactly. 





Woodsmith said:


> ...The neutral gear switch can also control a big 'idiot light' on the dash indicating motor drive when the appropriate relays close on the throttle pot.
> 
> A loud electronic voice saying 'Warning! Electric drive engaged!' would be fun but annoying!
> Just thinking of the film Alien where Mother, the Nostromo mainframe, does the count down to self distruct.


Idiot light probably (maybe not so big though); loud voice - no way! 

Some electronic safety features would be a good idea though, like a switch to disable the motor when the brake pedal is being used. I would also want a manual override switch for the neutral switch, to allow me to experiment with combined power.


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## DawidvC (Feb 14, 2010)

Todd, why don't you look into the multi-plate systems the soft-roaders are using to switch drive to the rear wheels. Setting something like that to disengage the motor above a certain speed to protect the motor should not be too difficult.

Dawid


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

DawidvC said:


> Todd, why don't you look into the multi-plate systems the soft-roaders are using to switch drive to the rear wheels. Setting something like that to disengage the motor above a certain speed to protect the motor should not be too difficult.
> 
> Dawid


That's definitely an idea worth looking into, thanks.


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## aeroscott (Jan 5, 2008)

GM did a car in 2005 called the Precept , it was alum , electric front drive , diesel 3 cylinder rear drive , 95 mpg , they claimed no one would want one , 4 door , Impala like,I had never heard of it until a automotive engineering mag showed it .


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

I had to kidnap this information from the HPG AC30/31/50 owner's thread, for future reference on this project.



thingstodo said:


> Something you might be interested in ...
> 
> I have not seen a DC/DC converter in this range, but I run a surplus 5 HP 208V three phase VFD from a 300V (or so) battery pack.
> 
> ...


 


thingstodo said:


> Hi again,
> 
> Sorry about that. I'm a techie at heart. Let me try that again.
> 
> ...


 


DawidvC said:


> To get a bit better response at lower voltages, tell your VFD that the nominal motor voltage at 50 Hz is Vdc(required)/1.73. That way it will generate the desired voltage with high enough frequency that you do not have to go overboard with filters to get it to work. This would allow you to generate really low voltages.
> 
> I like your idea - this is really a bit of lateral thinking. Thanks for the tip
> 
> Dawid


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

aeroscott said:


> GM did a car in 2005 called the Precept , it was alum , electric front drive , diesel 3 cylinder rear drive , 95 mpg , they claimed no one would want one , 4 door , Impala like,I had never heard of it until a automotive engineering mag showed it .


That name sounds familiar, I'll Google it.

I was just outside walking my dog, and a Prius pulled up and stopped, waiting to pick someone up. It sat there perfectly silent, other than the annoying rap music booming inside it, then silently glided away. I could hear the sound of the tires squeaking on the cold, damp, asphalt. Knowing that Tailfeather would be able to do that made me smile, and gave me a little more incentive to go forward with this project. 

I've been observing a lot of things over the past few days, and thinking about this idea. I like the idea of starting with the traffic creeper system and working my way up. One of the things I love most about electric is there is no real penalty for having more power. I can eventually end up with the equivalent of a few hundred horsepower without sacrificing economy and efficiency.

Okay, one compromise in efficiency because of the meaty tires needed to apply 300hp...


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## DawidvC (Feb 14, 2010)

One day, all musclecars will be electric


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

toddshotrods said:


> I was just outside walking my dog,


Pics?



toddshotrods said:


> Okay, one compromise in efficiency because of the meaty tires needed to apply 300hp...


Thinking silly and a little off the wall here.
How about a central tyre inflation system as used by the military?

When travelling in economy mode the tyres are over inflated and presents a smaller contact patch to the road. When you want to apply the 300hp the tyres are deflated until they squish down to give a bigger contact area.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Woodsmith said:


> Pics?...


Of what the dog?





Woodsmith said:


> ...Thinking silly and a little off the wall here.
> How about a central tyre inflation system as used by the military?
> 
> When travelling in economy mode the tyres are over inflated and presents a smaller contact patch to the road. When you want to apply the 300hp the tyres are deflated until they squish down to give a bigger contact area.


H1 Hummers used that type system, I think. Sounds expensive. 

My other thought was about the wear pattern in the thread. Have to remember to go by the tread depth in the center to not run 'em down to the belts!


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

toddshotrods said:


> Of what the dog?


Yeah, dogs are nice.






toddshotrods said:


> H1 Hummers used that type system, I think. Sounds expensive.
> 
> My other thought was about the wear pattern in the thread. Have to remember to go by the tread depth in the center to not run 'em down to the belts!


That caught me out trying to hypermile into the 80mpg range. Wore away my tyre tread centres and had to get new tyres. Cost lots more then I saved in fuel.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

My little buddy, he's been with me through thick and thin. He was actually my ex's dog, but I kept him when we split. It was supposed to be until she got on her feet, but we kind of bonded in that time. She has a 4lb Yorkie now.









He appears to be a Terrier/Dachshund mix. He has the spunk, and hunting inclination, of a Terrier and the body length, slew-footed stance, and facial expressiveness of a Dachshund (espcially the big paraniod-looking eyes).


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## aeroscott (Jan 5, 2008)

just remembered something about charging batteries with pulsed power . it can run into micro cycles that wear out the battery best I remember .


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

He is lovely!

This was my Mollie. 
















She was my dog but went off with my ex when we split up but I had visiting rights in the divorce.
She passed away over a year ago now (Mollie, not the ex) and I still miss her.
I've been thinking of getting a Jack Russell type for company (and it would mean my 'honey seat' can be smaller) but I don't have a regular home routine so it wouldn't be fair.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Rotties are my favorite breed, but not the best choice for apartment life, which I enjoy. Smaller breeds are awesome for apartments. My little two-bedroom townhome is a mansion for Ruefus. He can even get exercise, by running around in it.

I was trying to find a picture of Rustie, but can't find it. He was _my_ mutt, a 130-ish pound Rottweiler/Basset Hound mix. Rottie head, and markings, Basset legs and body length. Very odd looking, but very cool. He was way too aggressive for city life, so I had to let him go with the house.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

aeroscott said:


> just remembered something about charging batteries with pulsed power . it can run into micro cycles that wear out the battery best I remember .


Well, that won't work. I hope to run more expensive lithium cells, so whatever is "feeding" them must be safe.


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## nimblemotors (Oct 1, 2010)

Todd, I built a prototype diy hybrid, basically took a fwd car, and added electric drive to one rear wheel. Two independent drivetrains.

It was a lot more work than I thought. Too much work and modification to make it a cost-effective good solution for widespread application
as a replacement for a single-car family.

I think Toyota came up with a pretty good solution, but failed to support a plug-in option. So basically a good approach is to fix that problem
and use their design. 

This is one possible plan for my next project (after the current two are done!  Take the toyota transaxles, add my own smaller ICE and my own controls for them to make it primarily an EV with ICE backup.

Jack Murray


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

nimblemotors said:


> Todd, I built a prototype diy hybrid,...
> 
> Too much work and modification to make it a cost-effective good solution for widespread application as a replacement for a single-car family...


Sounds like you have hopes of developing something you can market. I'm just working on a one-off concept at this point. As with the Inhaler, it's just a marketing tool for my design services.

I know it doesn't jive well with conventional DIY EV thinking, but I personally think hybrids are the ticket for most people. There isn't a one size fits all hybrid though. I lean more towards the sport variety, capitalizing on the power of the electric for a performance boost, and a small efficient ICE for virtually unlimited range.

The heavy traffic creeper thing is just to give me an inexpensive way to start experimenting with the concept, and compensate for one of my particular ICE powertrain weaknesses - a clutch pedal in stop-n-go traffic.



Since I'll need to purchase a motor anyway, I keep toying with the idea of buying a 13" series GE forklift motor for the Inhaler, and moving the 11" GE SepEx motor currently in it to this project. For the cost of purchasing a motor for this project, and converting that one to series, I could probably find a decent 13-incher that's already series wound.

Since I'd be fiddling around in the creeper mode for a while, I would have time to play around programming a Kelly controller to work with the big SepEx motor, and could also have regen. The 11" GE should have no problem pushing the car in slow, move five feet and stop again, traffic at lower voltages - but would also have no problem accepting more juice as the budget allows.

Sounds logical from a "glance", but I haven't thought through every detail yet.


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## aeroscott (Jan 5, 2008)

toddshotrods said:


> Well, that won't work. I hope to run more expensive lithium cells, so whatever is "feeding" them must be safe.


 capacitors will level out the charge ,cheep chargers do not use the caps . makes me think of adding caps to my various battery chargers .


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## Qer (May 7, 2008)

Woodsmith said:


> Yeah, dogs are nice.


Indeed, and if you're gonna share pics of your cuties, I wanna share too! 










They're all Beaucerons. Sigge (3 years), Kenzo (10), Garibaldi (3, brother to Sigge) and Chili (8½). Awfully spoiled all of them, as you can see. 

Maybe it's time for a dog thread?


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

I want to live at Qer's house! The dogs get their own leather sofas. 
You have beautiful dogs, I could sit and play with all those ears and never get any work done. 

I agree that Hybrid will be the way to go for mainstream but only as a stop gap measure. I see it a little like the continuation of starting handles and 3000 mile decokes being carried over until people trusted the ability of the electric starter and fuels became cleaner burning.

I would be happy to have a hybrid conversion on my Skoda so that it could use electric more often in urban driving and trailer shunting. It would probably be good on short distance level motorway runs too.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

OK, my last dog post on your thread and then back on topic.

In the UK we have recently been seeing this advert on TV.





The point of the advert is true, I now want a Harvey!


Back on topic.
Your thoughts on The Tailfeather is really starting to make me seriously think ahead to hybridising my car one day. Taking the rear axle from a 4x4 version of my car and adding a motor to it could allow me to have a short range hybrid. It might be a realistic option as my car gets older and I need to start investing in it.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Woodsmith said:


> ...Your thoughts on The Tailfeather is really starting to make me seriously think ahead to hybridising my car one day. Taking the rear axle from a 4x4 version of my car and adding a motor to it could allow me to have a short range hybrid. It might be a realistic option as my car gets older and I need to start investing in it.


I'm still at the crossroad. On one hand this seems to make perfect sense, and on the other I am tempted to sell it, purchase a truck, and move on. I'm hoping any information and ideas shared here help me make the right decision.

I have a lot of time invested in this project so far, doing the custom bodywork. I still have a long, long, way to go though and juggling this car and the Inhaler is challenging at times. Bailing out and purchasing a small truck would take a serious load off of my agenda, and make transporting the Inhaler a snap. Finishing this project would probably bring me great joy and many smiles (after all the stress and frustration) and, if this hybrid idea works, still get the Inhaler to and fro with ease.

Decisions, decisions...


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

I guess this is the thing. What you need and what you want, at this particular time, is still not quite syncronised.
There is time and money invested and that also has to have some influence alongside ideas and ideals.

I really don't need an EV of any description, I have my Skoda and it is not far off ideal for my needs.
I do want an EV and so I have the trike project gestating and I am thinking ahead to doing something with the Skoda too.
The Skoda element is why I am thinking about that Nelco Nexus motor on Ebay. It is small and fast spinning enough to adapt to a diff and forget. However, in the time frame I am thinking of, I would probably end up with a siamesed Super Agni from some future product range. But in the meantime I can still look at getting two kits for the Open Revolt and making two controllers at the same time.



A part of me would say, concentrate on one project but I know that you are like me and will always have many projects on the go. If you drop this one you will only replace it with another one or two in any other direction.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Woodsmith said:


> ...A part of me would say, concentrate on one project but I know that you are like me and will always have many projects on the go. If you drop this one you will only replace it with another one or two in any other direction.


I have been down to two projects for the past couple years (not counting my brief intermission with the e-bike, and 2nd street rod ideas) and I am much more confortable with fewer personal irons in the fire. I want to begin adding customer projects again eventually, but those aren't my responsibilty - I just contribute, as a designer.

The thing is, I have two projects that require a *serious* investment of time and effort to realize. I say time and effort rather than time and money because making the money just requires more of my time. How hard I have to work on other stuff to pay for this stuff still counts as time and effort spent on these two dreams. The payoff might be huge, but I have to weigh that against what it's costing me now.

If I sell this project and replace it with a truck I will limit myself to simpler modifications on it, at least until the Inhaler is much further down the road. I have to figure out whether I will be content with that, or bored, or maybe even miserable. Will the world of bolt-on parts put me in a mental institution (obvious exaggeration ), or will it help me concentrate and accomplish? If I didn't have so much invested in this car already I would just sell it roll the dice and see how it played out. In this case, if I'm wrong, I have to start over with a car again.

I've been driving the truck as much as possible when making deliveries at work to see how I even like being in a truck again. (The other company vehicle is a Chevy Aveo - ugghhh!) I've owned quite a few trucks and enjoyed them over the years, but my tastes kind of evolved into being more of a sporty sedan type. My Hondas have also spoiled me with excellent fuel economy, but they're not exactly the ideal choice for towing a street rod around. 

I've also been asking myself if I had to choose one, the Inhaler or Tailfeather, which would I choose. That was always easy before. Without hesitation, I would always tell people I would choose my Honda. The Inhaler changed that, but I can't say I would choose it either.


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## anand.ssukhi (Jul 23, 2009)

some time ago i also had a very similar idea abt two indivisual drive trains powering diffrent set of wheels
but i was suggested that it wud be way too complex to operate and eventually one of the diffrentials wud blow if both the drive trains are simultaneously used
but if not so it is really gud
and i wud suggest use hub motors maybe u wont get that much torque but u wud save lots on weight and space and also it wud be less complex as there wudnot be much mechcanical stuff to alter with all the time


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## DawidvC (Feb 14, 2010)

Todd, a while ago I read a thread on this forum about a Highlander diff. It should not be too hard to adapt on to fit on Tailfeather? The hard part would then be in electronics, making sure everything works fine, but I believe you will find enough support here to help you on that.

Dawid


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

anand.ssukhi said:


> some time ago i also had a very similar idea abt two indivisual drive trains powering diffrent set of wheels
> but i was suggested that it wud be way too complex to operate and eventually one of the diffrentials wud blow if both the drive trains are simultaneously used
> but if not so it is really gud
> and i wud suggest use hub motors maybe u wont get that much torque but u wud save lots on weight and space and also it wud be less complex as there wudnot be much mechcanical stuff to alter with all the time


I remember some threads on this subject, and I posted in a couple/few of them that I was considering a similar idea - here it is!  The key is how you approach it. I saw the arguments against it, and found no good reason to abandon the idea. By beginning with two separate systems that I can use independently of each other, and that have specific purposes that complement each other, I can work some of the bugs out of the system. When the need and time come to begin coordinating them I will have knowledge and experience to work off. That's basically just a technological hurdle. There needs to be a controller to determine which system should be doing what at all times, when they're running in a combined mode.

As for the destroying diffs, I don't think so. If different power levels were introduced into the same diff, or if they were hard-linked together, maybe. The conceivable issues are the torque from the electric motor overwhelming the ICE powetrain, or the ICE powetrain causing the electric to spin too fast. At first, I will be the "brains" of the whole system, telling each one when enough is enough. Eventually, an electronic unit will takeover, leaving me to shave, read, text, and all the other things you do while driving. It will learn, from my experience, when to disconnect one of the systems to protect it. That disconnect can be electronic, or electro-mechanical. The real challenge is to make it all work seamlessly.

Hub motors are too heavy - too much unspring weight. I like lightweight vehicles, that handle like sports car, and that would severely limit it in that regard.



DawidvC said:


> Todd, a while ago I read a thread on this forum about a Highlander diff. It should not be too hard to adapt on to fit on Tailfeather? The hard part would then be in electronics, making sure everything works fine, but I believe you will find enough support here to help you on that.
> 
> Dawid


I have a Celica GTS rear differential right now, that I planned to replace later with something that can handle large doses of torque. The whole rear powertrain cradle will be designed for that diff, with adapters to fit the Celica diff for now. The Highlander is some type of hybrid piece right? Does it have a motor in it? It sounds tempting, but also sounds like it would limit the ability to upgrade later, if that's the case.

The support for the electronic/tech side of this is what I am hoping to find. You guys surely came through for the Inhaler. Beginning with JRP3's initial insistance that electric could meet my needs (which led me to this site) to all the incredible technical assistance I received along the way, it has actually grown into much more than I had even hoped for.


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## DawidvC (Feb 14, 2010)

Toyota built a complete diff and electric motor in a single package for the hybrid Highlander. I believe the lexus softroader also have a similar setup. This is, at present, the easiest way to a hybrid if you can fit it and have a drive available.

The nice thing about it, is that the motor is transverse mounted, and the diff is integral with the motor. In other words, it looks like a normal motor, with the sideshafts connecting to either end. It should take less space than a conventional diff lengthwise.

Regards
Dawid


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## DawidvC (Feb 14, 2010)

By the way this thread here
http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showthread.php/weismann-electric-transaxle-49556.html
is similar in concept. One of them (waq) seems to be for a series motor, and apparently these systems are for sale to the public. I know not all people like inboard brakes, but if you really need to confuse people ... !!

Regards
Dawid


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

I think you are right about the independent systems.

That is how I think I could run my Skoda. Urban short range would be electric only, long range speed would be ICE only. Trailer pulling would be ICE but trailer shunting would be electric.

Best of both with only a bit of weight penalty to start with until the battery, controller and motor begin to make up more then half the usable powerpack.
Even the fuel tank for the ice could be reduced to fit in the batteries with no loss in effectiveness. A bit like only putting in 3 gallons every couple of days instead of 15 gallons every ten days.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Woodsmith said:


> ...Even the fuel tank for the ice could be reduced to fit in the batteries with no loss in effectiveness. A bit like only putting in 3 gallons every couple of days instead of 15 gallons every ten days.


I can't do that one, because I want the ICE for long distance. I don't want to stop for gas every 100 miles - 400-500 stretches at a time is more like it.

I'm still thinking, figuring, debating (with myself), and wondering. Is this feasible for me?


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

Ahhh, 3 gallons, or rather £20 worth is easily 200 miles for me and plenty for me even for my longer drives.

I in your position I would want to add the motor.

In an ideal world I would have a swappable power plant. The ICE would live in a spare front section of a car that can be swapped for the EV front end straight onto the rest of the car using some multi-pin plugs and hydraulic quick release connectors. But the world is not ideal.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

What I'm working towards is a compact setup, for business, that I be anywhere on this continent with easily. This is all part of my business transformation. I was always "married" to a shop full of equipment and tons of customer and personal projects. Now, I have two vehicles, a dog, laptop, cell, and clothes. I can basically pick up in a moment's notice and be where I need to be, with everything important. I may have to leave some tools, a couple pieces of furniture, etc, in storage but that stuff is not very important to my work. I still have yet to go back and get the rest of my stuff from the old house and shop - that will be two years ago this December! 

The e-motor would definitely give me the "boost" needed for certain conditions (traffic, going up grades, etc) and trailer brakes on the towing axle would ease the stress on the down slopes. In theory, it would make for a small, relatively efficient package, that would market my services constantly. In theory...

The traditional method is a big pickup (preferrably diesel) with a huge enclosed trailer stuffed full of projects. I am an efficiency nut, and I just don't see the need for all that for my goals. It would be a serious waste for me. The biggest I would go is an S10 pickup, with a 4.3l V6, and the Inhaler on it's little custom tow dolly. I would just be in a regular old truck normally, but have much less effort invested in getting from opportunity to opportunity. Tailfeather is a marketing tool itself, attracting more atention than I want sometimes (even unfinished) but would need some assistance with getting the Inhaler where it needs to be.

Both options sound good. I think I really need to figure out which one is my real "main squeeze".


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

I found this to be inspirational. I could imagine having Tailfather in place of Blue Meanie, but also being able to use it to get the Inhaler to and fro...


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

I think your own version of Blue Meanie would be great, it really would give you the 'best of both' and when you are showing the Inhaler you would still have the Tailfeather to EV around in while the Inhaler is on a stand.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

I need to get it on a certified scale to see how far over the original weight it is right now with all this composite crap on it (many layers of foam, fiberglass, and filler). That will give me an idea of how much I can lose with the actual carbon fiber/foam composite panels in place, and how much I have to work with for the electric powertrain. I think it's about 200-300lbs overweight right now, because the rear clip has four different versions buried in it, with all the minor shape "tuning" that accompanied each one. The front has three.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

A major manufacturer is working on this concept (ICE FWD/ELEC RWD):


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## anand.ssukhi (Jul 23, 2009)

i also got my initial idea of twin drive train from a image on which logo says merc
http://hybridvehicle-s.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/04/hybrid-vehicle.jpg
check it out!!


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

I don't remember getting the original idea to do this from seeing or hearing about anything similar. JRP3 convinced me, after pages of debate, that electric was "the way", and this was my first idea for building something electric. The problem I encountered is I wanted the electric powertrain for performance, and the best (known) available battery technology (LiFePo) "way back then" would have meant adding another 1500lbs (complete electric system) to the existing vehicle weight. I gave up because I didn't want to build anything that heavy.

Since then, I started on the Inhaler, which alleviates my need for extreme performance. That led me back to toying with this idea as a booster system. Also, the new (albeit expensive) battery technologies make it possible to build a very lightweight electric dirve system so a little added performance is also possible.

I'm leaning more in this direction, but still haven't committed myself to it though.  I love the idea itself, but am undecided on whether I want to finish the Honda I started or move on to something else. The custom bodywork on the Honda is a huge effort and I have been feeling a little less than motivated lately. I do find myself toying with the idea of adding the electric hybrid system to anything I've consider to replace the Honda though...


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Well, after racking my little brain for the last couple months of 2010, figuring out where I am going in business and life, I think the Tailfeather Project is a go!  I've burned quite a few hours developing the idea of Tailfeather and Inhaler working together as a team. I really started to like the idea as 2010 wound to a close, and even found some motivation to get back to work on Tailfeather's crazy bodywork. I also realized that I have way too much time invested in this project to stop now.

Here's the 3D chassis stuff I had been working on, that I forgot to post before. I am debating with myself between this full custom frame idea and just modifying and reinforcing the existing unibody structure. The point of this idea is the frame rails, and main body shell carry all the loading and forces, allowing me to eventually incorporate ideas like composite floors and firewalls.
















These are really just 3D rough sketches to help me think. I haven't done any measuring to figure the real shape of the frame rails. Initially, I would just create a replacement bolt-in subframe to carry the electric powertrain in back, but I have to have long-range plans to have peace with an idea I am working on. I would love to have this frame though because my design is intended to make access for maintenance on the ICE much easier, and it drops right down into a tow hitch for the Inhaler in the back. It puts all the suspension, drive, braking, and pulling forces into the main frame. Ideally, the battery pack would be in a central tunnel between the seats.


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## Bowser330 (Jun 15, 2008)

Thank you for pursuing this idea, its a great one! As you already have shown its what OEMs are doing as well...

I have thought of a similar setup as you had already mentioned, doing a retrofit into an existing unibody...

In addition you could setup a small agni motor to act as a generator powered by the ICE and rectify its output to charge the battery pack while cruising (most efficient)

A perfect car for this would be a TDI, they can already get 40+mpg and are FWD. Just as your pictures show, you could add a rear-differential and E-motor, AC50 woul work well plus it would have Regen...an extra 50hp and 100ftlbs would be very fun and would increase the overall MPG when used primarily for acceleration... 

KEEP IT UP!!!


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Bowser330 said:


> Thank you for pursuing this idea, its a great one! As you already have shown its what OEMs are doing as well...
> 
> I have thought of a similar setup as you had already mentioned, doing a retrofit into an existing unibody...
> 
> ...


Thanks Bowser. I really wanted to do it, I just had a lot of decisions to sort out to commit myself to it. I wish I could be practical enough to take advantage of an AC50, as it's probably perfect for the job, but I have this image of doing burnouts with a Soliton-fed series DC motor!


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

I don't think I am going to have much trouble meeting my goal of under 3000lbs. The factory weight of the car (base model, 5spd, Accord DX, with A/C as the only option) was around 2800lbs. When I was cleaning my old shop out to sell it, I was taking a lot of scrap metal to the recycler with my old trailer. On the last load, I left the trailer there and drove back onto the scales with just the Accord. IIRC, it was around 3200lbs. I had a small 2-ton jack, some tools, etc, in the car in case I had a flat on the way there, plus some other stuff in the car, but always thought the weight seemed high - I don't think it was!

I just ordered a 50lb box of talc powder for making my filler (for modeling the new body parts). That was to replace the 16lb bag I just used the last of. Each pound of that powder is matched with probably 1-3lbs of resin (depending on what consistency I need at the time). A lot of it ends up on the floor while shaping, but enough stays on to really add up over time. There are currently about a half dozen versions of that rear clip all still on the back of the car. Each one is comprised of layers of foam, fiberglass, filler, and black primer. I have quite a bit to add to finish the shape - hence the 50lb box of powder on the way!

I can see how I can easily lose at least a few hundred pounds off the back of this car, when I finally pull the molds and make the new rear clip.  That means I can add a motor, controller, wiring, etc, and be lighter than it is now. I get 35mpg now!  With some careful design and fabrication, lightweight aluminum replacement parts, and enough money to for lithium cells, I can come up with a real win-win with this project. If I could get up to 25-35mph on electric, and then ease the clutch out on the gas motor, I bet I'd have some really high mpg figures.

The more I toy with the idea the more I like it. The budget is going towards finishing the body right now, but I am passively keeping my eye out for a good deal on a motor to couple with the Toyota differential. I'm also looking for something to steal a complete IRS setup from, that would have decent ride and handling. I looked at the Toyota Celica's the diff came from but don't like the design. Plus, I want something I can pull the whole setup out of, with a bolt-in cradle. That way I can have it all set up, working, and ready to bolt in Tailfeather - less down time. Gotta take a look at Honda CRVs.

More to come...


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Tomorrow, I am purchasing a little Saturn sedan to assume primary responsibility for my daily driving needs. What this, along with the changes to the Inhaler's immediate plans, means for Tailfeather is more freedom to do big things. Trying to keep a car ready to get me where I need to be, and do major custom work in between commuting, is beyond challenging. Now, if it needs to be down for days or weeks to accomplish something, it won't be a problem. I can do whatever I need to do to realize the dream. I do want to try my best to always keep it on the road, so it never becomes a garage ornament.

The dream part is I am planning to switch at least a portion, if not all, of my ultimate performance goals to this project. The difference is I could care less about NHRA this and that. I will be building more of a factory style performance car. It only has to meet my demands and specifications. I have visions of having a 400volt/4000amp powertrain in the back of this car, ready to grant my every wish. The beginning will most likely be a simple low speed, 5-10 mile, booster system. The real goal is more, more, more...

This was my original plan when JRP3 convinced me that electric was the way to go, but it didn't seem possible to meet my weight and performance goals with then-currently-available battery technology. Things have changed!  All-electric commuting, gas-sipping commuting, unlimited range, and supercar performance in one crazy-looking little hybrid sedan! 

I have my work cut out for me because I have to reduce the weight of the factory vehicle enough to compensate for the electric powertrain that will be added. The chassis also has to be rigid enough to handle the power and facilitate great handling - while remaining lightweight. The role model for it will be the C5/6 Corvettes. Lingenfelter's Vette has run 8.90's on a factory chassis, with a twin-turbo V8. I plan to use a complete C5/6 rear suspension setup in back, because it's proven in road handling and power handling capabilities. It's the e-ticket in higher budget custom vehicles right now. I haven't decided exactly what motor or motors will be driving it. Series DC seems to be the best bet of delivering the type of performance I seek, but the exact configuration is up for grabs.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

The Saturn is working as intended. It will be my daily driver now, and for a while my concentration with Tailfeather will be on keeping it mechanically fit as a back-up driver and tow vehicle for the Inhaler. Tailfeather will be third on the list of project vehicle priorities, for a while, but eventually I will start looking into the basic traffic booster system to make stop-n-go city traffic and hills easier to deal with while towing. Long-range plans are to start working on a max performance rear powertrain, and chassis mods to suit. I want to have enough in the project budget to pay to have a lot of the work done by then though, to not burn myself out.


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## gor (Nov 25, 2009)

agree with many - idea is sound

sure, double system -ev and ice(range) - more complex, but like in the case with amphibious vehicles - it not the Best car or best boat - it can be GOOD , reliable machine, which do both good accordingly to its purpose

cons - complexity of running both systems together, weight
pros - range, combined power performance, 4 diy built - ice part (+AC, hydraulics, etc) already exist

spreadsheet below - performance in 0-60 perspective 
p.s. in Inhaler spirit, chrysler pt-cruiser hotroded as an example : )


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

gor said:


> agree with many - idea is sound...


Thanks. For what I am planning it's a perfectly logical combo. The gas powertrain gives me economical, unlimited, range; and the electric powertrain gives me the performance I desire. Since I am not concerned with the typical needs of a pure EV, I don't have to have such a large, heavy, battery pack. A small, lightweight, high-power, pack is perfect. Maximum performance with typical hybrid electric range, and low weight.

It seems like a majority of the concentration with electric (from DIYers to production vehicles) is on the daily commute. It's like the outrageous performance potential is overlooked. Cars like White Zombie and Cro's Beemer make the point, but very few of the people I discuss the Inhaler with have ever even heard of them.

Nothing else, including a $50K twin-turbo V8, can offer the type of power electric can and be as docile as it is when not being pushed. That's my attraction.

I can't read the spreadsheet.


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## gor (Nov 25, 2009)

hi, Todd
i like the idea - good, simple, straightforward; many companies and builders favor this way for conversions

seems the reason why major manufacturers doesn't go with such type of performance hybrids - production cost and fuel economy as their major goal with hybrids (to have performance, is much easier for them to just put bigger engine.... : )
but certainly, there is a room for performance - when we can squeeze all power we got and don't worry about the range - sweet )))

just in case - here spreadsheet uploaded from another computer (and another Windows)


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## Darxus (May 10, 2010)

gor said:


> seems the reason why major manufacturers doesn't go with such type of performance hybrids - production cost and fuel economy as their major goal with hybrids....


Average Fuel Economy as of 2006:
Japanese Hybrid Vehicles: 42mpg
*American Hybrid Vehicles: 25mpg*

- Who Killed The Electric Car? (2006), 1 hour and 7 minutes in.

Economy does not appear to be the major goal of American manufacturers of hybrids.


Car Mileage: 
1908 Ford Model T - 25 MPG 
2008 EPA Average All Cars - 21 MPG

- http://www.wanttoknow.info/050711carmileageaveragempg - Don't know anything about the site, didn't read the article, just remembered hearing a similar statistic and found this.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

The American numbers are skewed by the fact that we, as a nation, prefer huge vehicles. You have vehicles like hybrid Escalades in those numbers, which IMO get pretty good mpg numbers for their size.

That's all beside the point for this disscussion though - this project/thread is more about mph than mpg.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

The idea of performance hybrids is gaining traction - just slowly. The Porsche 918 Spyder is in the neighborhood of what I am seeking with Tailfeather. Just flip the bias the other way - low hp gas/high hp electric.


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## glaurung (Nov 11, 2009)

Jaguar did upgrade hybrids to this millenia one year ago.....
http://inhabitat.com/jaguar-unveils-the-c-x75-hybrid-supercar/
Maybe you were thinking this kind of performance?


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

glaurung said:


> Jaguar...
> 
> ...Maybe you were thinking this kind of performance?


Yeah that's closer. I am familiar with the Jag, I just have trouble relating to it because of the turbines. Thanks for posting the link though. Those are nice pics of it.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

I'm finally getting some design issues sorted out. At least for the time being, I am going to revert back to a simple MacPherson strut rear suspension setup. Depending on how well it handles the power and how I feel about the ride and handling, I could keep it permanently. The challenge right now will be to come up with a really versatile generic design, that has the ability to be upgraded and adapted to meet future needs. Right now, I want to avoid getting sucked too far into the black art of suspension design, while leaving room for it to be incorporated later.

I remembered some of my research from back when I was into Fieros. They have strut rear suspension, because it is essentially a front-drive powertrain moved to the back. The ultimate upgrade combination was using aluminum, W-body, GM knuckles and Corvette bearings. The Vette bearings are a direct bolt-in replacement for the FWD bearing. A simple lower A-arm and a bolt-in upper strut mount and I have rear suspension. This also works perfectly with the strut-based frame design I have been toying with in CAD. The ultimate plan is to run 335mm rear tires, but for a quick-n-dirty setup plan I can use cheap 295/50-15s on 15x10" wheels. I've found a close enough match in pairs of FWD and RWD wheels to pass until the time comes for a matching set of forged, 3-piece, custom rims. I want black wheels, so that will help hide the minor differences in details of the setup wheels. They're basically the same style of wheel though - a split five-spoke.

I'm trying to nail down the details of the rear setup because I need to get the right tires under it to continue developing the body plug, and I want to start plotting the motor and battery location. The car needs a new fuel tank, so when I do this rear chassis/suspension setup I am planning to move it to a fuel cell behind the rear axle centerline. That clears the way for the motor to be mounted between rear bucket seats, with a cover that can be removed for show-n-shine. 

The more I work on this plan, the more psyched I get about seeing it hunkered down over massive rear tires, and being able to show people a big electric motor stuffed between the seats!


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## Darxus (May 10, 2010)

toddshotrods said:


> Yeah that's closer. I am familiar with the Jag, I just have trouble relating to it because of the turbines.


Turbines are good stuff. More efficient than reciprocating pistons. One of their bigger limitations is a narrow power band, which isn't relevant if you're just powering a generator, or have a CVT. Hmm.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Darxus said:


> Turbines are good stuff. More efficient than reciprocating pistons. One of their bigger limitations is a narrow power band, which isn't relevant if you're just powering a generator, or have a CVT. Hmm.


That's the reason I don't have a lot of interest in them. I want to be able to drive my car like a normal ICE vehicle when I desire to, not just have a gas generator. That's also what led me to start with a Honda - I love driving my car. The (modified) shifter feels like a precision rifle bolt, that can be operated with one finger. The clutch is silky smooth and light. The engine is good on gas, smooth (dual balance shafts), and loves to rev - screams really nice through the intake when doing it too! 

I have to complement that with a properly designed electric rear drive system that feels like it's "Honda", and performs like it's American muscle.


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## DawidvC (Feb 14, 2010)

I saw a reference a while back on a website (I am too lazy to check for it now) on some American Electric trucks with the diff and motor integrated into the same housing. The one sideshaft actually runs through the motor - Very nice and compact. That would be something to consider given the space constraints you are working with.

Regards
Dawid


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

DawidvC said:


> I saw a reference a while back on a website (I am too lazy to check for it now) on some American Electric trucks with the diff and motor integrated into the same housing. The one sideshaft actually runs through the motor - Very nice and compact. That would be something to consider given the space constraints you are working with.
> 
> Regards
> Dawid


That sounds similar to this one. The problem I have with those is they haven't been proven at the levels of abuse I desire and, when something (inevitably) breaks, the cost and complexity of replacement/repair is too high.

Even though it will be a major intrusion on interior space, locating the motor between the seats with a conventional drivshaft to a conventional diff gives me easily repairable/replaceable parts - plus, I can pull the cover and show it off!  A nitrous-ready driveshaft, a race-built Ford 9-inch differential, race-ready CV axles, and Vette wheel bearing/hubs, should be a pretty stout combination. I'm leaning towards a Netgains TransWarp 11HV.

I have a LOT of design and engineering stuff to work out. I like the MacPherson strut idea, because it leaves room to move into a more conventional 5-link setup later. I just have to make all this stuff fit back there now. I've been working on that generic CAD chassis just to sort my thoughts out, but will need to start working to scale now to see the ideas in my head work in virtual reality, before attempting them in real reality.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

I haven't done anything with Tailfeather since moving it into the Inhaler's garage space. (People like to park in front of that garage  and I need to be able leave for work on time, so the new driver is in the space Tailfeather was in.) I had all kinds of crap inside the car from the day I towed the Inhaler to the shop, and a bunch of accumulated crap along the wall that made it hard to open the driver's side doors. I cleaned the car out, and most of the crap from the wall, then started thinking about the electric powertrain.

I sat the poster board mock-up motor I made for working on the Inhaler on the back seat and hopped in - there's plenty of room!  That was with the motor sitting on top of the seat. When it's down in between the seats it'll be perfect. The other thing I was concerned about was whether I would be able to get the seat backs in a decent position, with the large wheel tubs that will be needed for the 335 section width tires. Again, I don't think there will be any issues. The wheel tubs are completely behind the seat back, and I plan to keep the forward edge of the tires in the same position. That will stretch the wheelbase an inch, with the larger diameter (26" vs 24") tires, and perserve the interior space.

The thing I have left to figure out yet is where the batteries will be. The spaces under the rear seats, where the gas tank is now, on either side of where the motor will be, seem to be the best option. If I use thinner seat cushions I can probably get two decent sized cases under them. I'll do some measuring later to see what will actually fit. I don't know what type of cells I want yet either. As the plan is with the Inhaler, I think I will design for the space I have and bet on technology advancing enough in time to increase the power density in that space when I need it. I _think_ I could fit six of the Turnigy-based packs I was planning for the Inhaler now. That would be 370v/2700a. Not too shabby, and probably more punishment than a Warp 11HV can take anyway.

Decisions, decisions...


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Well, I made the huge decision to sell the Honda - after owning it since 2002, and working (slowly) on my concept plan since 2005. It's now on Ebay; 2 days left. 

Actually, it's not a sad occasion.  I made the decision to only have one "major" project, and the Inhaler won that battle, hands-down. My definition of a "major" project is pretty lofty, and there will be a replacement for the Honda, that's still pretty intense. I really want to pursue the hybrid concept. I just want something that is more manageable, with the time I have after meeting the Inhaler's needs. I would rather for the hybrid project to require a big financial investment, because money is relatively infinite, whereas time is always in limited supply. I can always find a way to make more money, but I haven't been too successul multiplying time. 

Right now the three thoughts I have on continuing the hybrid idea are my new daily driver Saturn, the Scratch motorycle project I have been toying with, or a completely new-to-me vehicle. So far, Scratch makes the most sense "on paper", but no decisions have been made.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

The Honda didn't sell, because I refused to just give it away. I could simply drive it to the scrap yard, if I want scrap prices, and not pay Ebay final value fees. Or, I could part it out - lots of new, and not-too-old parts, and make three or four times that easy. However, what I actually decided to do is just let it sit in the garage. The motor still runs like new, making it a great back-up driver, that costs very little to keep.

The problem is I can't stop my imagination!  Since digital builds are free, I have been having fun thinking about what I would do with it, if money were no object. I would do the complete the rough-in, and then take it to a top-quality pro shop to have finished to my standards. The next step would be chopping the top, to complete the transformation from Honda Accord to Todd's Tailfeather!

















I'm thinking siamese Warp 11HVs in the center tunnel. At the Goodguys show here, I got to take a good look and ask some questions about a new independent rear suspension system from one of the top hot rod builders. It can accomodate 1000+hp easily, uses Corvette based components and geometry, with a Ford 9" for the diff - you can go as crazy as you like on the diff, and axles. I think it's about $12K-ish for the top of the line setup. This would allow the motors to be linked almost directly to it, and extend forward to just behind the front seats. Seats, by the way, would be four race buckets. 345/35ZR20s for the rear tires.

The body features about 4-ish inches of (roof) chop, with the full-size windshield laid back, keeping the roof width the same, and eliminating the need to cut the front glass. Plus, it would improve the aero. Chassis is reinforced (unibody) or built (tube) to be strong without a b-pillar. Rear doors are suicide, so when they're both open it's a big picture window to the interior. Upper door frames are eliminated, creating frameless flush side glass. The rear windows would be fixed (don't roll down) because this ain't your daddy's family sedan. Need fresh air? Get out! 08-ish Chevy Malibu tail light lenses, reshaped to match the contour of the body, and used because they have the DOT number on them - custom LED lighting and buckets behind them. The rear window is from a Nissan 350z ragtop.

It's fun to dream...


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## DawidvC (Feb 14, 2010)

Looking good, Todd. Are the front doors overlapping the back doors like the Mazda RX8, or is that just my imagination running wild?


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

DawidvC said:


> Looking good, Todd. Are the front doors overlapping the back doors like the Mazda RX8, or is that just my imagination running wild?


Thanks Dawid.  Your imagination is running perfectly fine. The front doors do overlap the rear doors. Just like on the Mazda, and trucks with these types doors, the front door seals against, and latches onto, the rear door. In this case, that would be accomplished by actually welding the lower half of the b-pillar (that the front door currently latches to/seals against, and the rear doors are hinged to/seal against) to the rear door - then cutting it free from the car (after the chassis has been properly braced, of course).

That would all be worked in with new metal to look like the factory made it that way, and the window frame extended forward to meet the back of the front glass. That would allow the front glass to roll down into the door, like normal.

You may have also noticed that I rolled the upper center door gap towards the rear edge of the front glass to make the dividing line between the doors flow properly. I forgot to do the matching rear door gap. It would be back a bit further, and roll forward a little bit at the top. That was in the cards anyway, as the rear doors were about to receive wide-body panels that would extend back a bit further, as well as out. I made a couple course fiberglass panels to start that, but never bonded them to the doors and started working on them.




















My hood is one of my favorite features on the car, but people really don't get it. Maybe it's just a Columbus, Ohio thing but they can't understand why I would have a vent instead of a scoop? Hood vents are a common thing on sports cars?! It really, really works well. A majority of the heat from the radiator fan, goes up and out of this vent. It really needs doors in cold weather, because it's hard to get the engine up to operating temperature with the vent open.
















Some of you guys might remember that I cut that hole when trying to figure out why it was running warm last year. I liked the hole, so I started playing with it.  It would get smooth out, a screen or doors in the hole, molds pulled, and a carbon fiber hood made...


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