# Want to convert but not use batteries



## TEV (Nov 25, 2011)

The fuel economy will be better if you connect the ICE to the transmission, also you won't have to spend all those money on the electric components.



TEV said:


> You should search this forum for " generator extended range " or something like that , it was already discussed, the conclusion is that will be very inefficient, the only efficient way is with the ICE connected directly to the drive train or on a pusher trailer.
> 
> Converting gas to mechanical , mechanical to electric and electric back to mechanical power is very inefficient.
> 
> There are new types of generators which are more efficient but the prices are prohibitive and/or not available for DIY community.


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## dtbaker (Jan 5, 2008)

The problem with the generator approach (like a Volt) is that you need about 30kW to maintain highway speed..... which is a BIG expensive generator, or a really complex hybrid out of scope for most DIY.\

for DIY you basically have to use batteries, probably LiFePO4 for best bang for buck, and have intended use <100 miles per day.


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## ken will (Dec 19, 2009)

The Aston Martin Hybrid Hydrogen Rapide S doesn't use batteries.


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## dougingraham (Jul 26, 2011)

ken will said:


> The Aston Martin Hybrid Hydrogen Rapide S doesn't use batteries.


No it doesn't. It uses hydrogen which is an incredibly good fuel for a rocket but a terrible fuel for a car.


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## ga2500ev (Apr 20, 2008)

whawhat said:


> Hi,
> New to the form and this technology.
> I have a 58 GMC pickup, at first due to smog exempt was going to install a diesel motor for power and good fuel mileage.
> 
> ...


There are two crucial why questions here:

1. Why do you want to convert to electric?

2. Why do you not like batteries?

The only diesel-electric powerplant I could think of was a locomotive engine. There had to be an obvious reason why this setup is used. From Wikipedia:



> As will be seen in the following discussion, the propulsion system is designed to produce maximum traction motor torque at start-up, which explains why modern locomotives are capable of starting trains weighing in excess of 15,000 tons, even on ascending grades.


So I think that unless this is really your goal, it is unlikely that such a setup will have any net improvement over the diesel engine directly connected to the drivetrain.

ga2500ev


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## ken will (Dec 19, 2009)

dougingraham said:


> It uses hydrogen which is an incredibly good fuel for a rocket but a terrible fuel for a car.


What is wrong with Hydrogen?


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## onegreenev (May 18, 2012)

Ever priced a hydrogen fuel cell? Or the price of a hydrogen tank and components to run in an ICE style engine? No on-demand system can create enough hydrogen to power your trucks engine. Best bet is to convert to diesel and put on a killer turbo and run bio-diesel or straight VO in the beast. Or just get a nice car and drop in the new AC-76 and the controller and a pile of 180ah Calbs. Might actually be cheaper than doing your hydrogen vehicle conversion.


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## dougingraham (Jul 26, 2011)

ken will said:


> What is wrong with Hydrogen?


Too bulky. While it has high energy per unit of mass it has poor energy per unit of volume. To carry enough to have reasonable range you need to carry it liquefied under terribly high pressure at incredibly cold temperatures. Or locked up chemically in a form that can be easily released. None of the demo vehicles out there have much range. They just can't carry enough hydrogen.

You have to make it. There is no inexpensive way to make it. The cost to manufacture makes gasoline look inexpensive. Even if you use nearly free electricity you still have to compress it and then liquefy it and that electricity could go a long way charging batteries and moving a car. A lot farther than you will get via the extra conversions necessary to power a car.

Hydrogen reacts with the storage container such that metal is embrittled. So the tanks, tubing and valves get replaced every couple of years.

There is no infrastructure for distribution. I read one report that indicated building out an infrastructure like that of gas stations would cost a trillion dollars. That seems high to me but it could be true. By comparison it would only take several hundred million dollars to build out a network of supercharging stations along the interstate highway system. Cheap by comparison.

Converting it to electricity with a fuel cell is not yet practical and it may never be practical for a small car. EV batteries are a bargain compared to fuel cells.

Is it dangerous? Not the hydrogen itself but the high pressure cryogenic liquid version is not something I want to be near in an accident. But probably not any more dangerous than a gasoline fire or a plasma event in an EV.

None of these things individually is a real show stopper but taken together make it really unlikely to be adopted as a fuel for cars.


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## whawhat (May 28, 2013)

ga2500ev said:


> There are two crucial why questions here:
> 
> 1. Why do you want to convert to electric?
> 
> ...


To answer your question:
1. I have a Nissan Titan for my work truck, I log 30,000 miles every 4 to 5 months. To help save across the board (fuel, environment) I started using the truck to just move equipment and a smaller car to move between jobsites but this isn't working.

2. Because I want to use it as a work vehicle, I don't want batteries. The weight that I need to haul gear. It also puts me in a single point of failure, if the power grid goes down so do I. I'm not doing this for a novelty, I log too many miles.

3. Because I log too many miles, I feel the converstion factor does not apply to my case. You can buy a generator head, if you need 20 KVA, still cheaper than $12k batteries and all the electronics. I need a 24 hp motor to turn the generator head, I'm still cheaper than the batteries.

The fuel consumption of a 24 hp motor compared to a V8 Titan.
The emissions between the two.
I can see I might be forced having to use a few batteries then to some ultracapacitors...

While I'm at it, I have a mills lathes welder in my garage so fabrication isn't a problem. The truck is used for electrical work, 120/208 VAC commercial and data, that's what I started to do as a business. I switch careers from communciations (landline, data, wireless microwave). I got tired of working for corp. and dealing with misguided projects, so I'm on my own and really happy. Not happy with my fuel consumption.

I read a few post... So a 240 VAC 60 amp generator head will not power up an AC motor to move 4000 lbs. It doesn't add up... it doesn't take a lot of energy once in motion, so the person that wrote you need a lot of juice to maintain hwy speeds, your funny. You can gear down the RPM. That's like saying you need 300 hp to maintain speed. 

I just need 0 rpm to 3000 rpm, I'm not here to race, If I need to switch to a 3 speed trans so be it.

Anthony


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## whawhat (May 28, 2013)

I mentioned diesel because you can run a 2 stroke or 4 stroke single cyl engine with a heavy flywheel to make up on required HP. It's a throw back from farm tractors. I grew up on a ranch so I'm familiar with the set up.

Let me refine my question... Where do you guys get the info or parts to control the logic for throttle control?

What AC motor would you recommend to push 4000 lbs. Not at wrap speed! To help you guys out 0 - 60, in 15 seconds.?

So to power the AC motor, I need amps and voltage. I'm assuming the AC motors are limited in voltage and would like to take as much amps I can give it?

we as humans tend to make things more complicated that it really is

Anthony


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## TEV (Nov 25, 2011)

"In nature nothing is created,nothing is lost, everything is transformed,"


Converting gas to mechanical , mechanical to electric and electric back to mechanical power is very inefficient. 

Don't get me rong, I will be very happy if what you want to do it can be done, but unfortunate is not. Yes you can do it, and it will work, but your fuel economy will be worst than if you connect the engine to the drive train instead of the generator.

The only succes of this application is on locomotives, it's not a new technology but still no one is using it in cars, can you find out why no one is using this old and proved technology in cars ?


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## whawhat (May 28, 2013)

TEV said:


> "In nature nothing is created,nothing is lost, everything is transformed,"
> 
> 
> Converting gas to mechanical , mechanical to electric and electric back to mechanical power is very inefficient.
> ...


I appreciate your input and will look into why it can't be done. As for consumption, I use a 12KVA to power up all the tools and lights ect. 5 gallons will last about 8 hours. If you commute to work and takes you 30 min each way that one hour each day. How can someone say consumption will be more?

As for this forum.... Yes, I can stand in line and just copy people and build something that has already been proven and built. I but I wouldn't need this forum to do that. I thought this collective of people was to help and figure things out and not take the easy way out.... I guess I need to search on the British and Aus forums as they seem to be on a different mindset. At 30,000 miles in 4 to 5 months, you really expect me to believe a small motor will consume more than a V8.

I'll be back on this forum to let you know if it's a success or failure.
Thanks for the input so far. I'm in the wrong group.


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## TEV (Nov 25, 2011)

Oh boy,

Think this way : if you are satisfied with the power of the small engine, and is enough to haul your equipment too, then just replace the big engine with the small one , installing an additional generator and electric motor will be a waste of money because it will be less fuel efficient.


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## dragonsgate (May 19, 2012)

whawhat said:


> I appreciate your input and will look into why it can't be done. As for consumption, I use a 12KVA to power up all the tools and lights ect. 5 gallons will last about 8 hours. If you commute to work and takes you 30 min each way that one hour each day. How can someone say consumption will be more?
> 
> As for this forum.... Yes, I can stand in line and just copy people and build something that has already been proven and built. I but I wouldn't need this forum to do that. I thought this collective of people was to help and figure things out and not take the easy way out.... I guess I need to search on the British and Aus forums as they seem to be on a different mindset. At 30,000 miles in 4 to 5 months, you really expect me to believe a small motor will consume more than a V8.
> 
> ...


Sounds like you are upset because you didn’t hear what you wanted to hear. No one really said you couldn’t do the things you had in mind they simply pointed out that it would be highly impractical. Have you looked into how diesel electric trains are made and work? They are quite complicated. You have not brought up anything that many if not all of us have mulled over at least once in the past. Seeing as how I have just spoken for all the rest I will add that we do try to have open minds about things. It is just that budget constraints can put a dampener on enthusiasm. Best of luck on your endeavor and I for one will be glad to see you post a super hybrid sans batteries on this Forum.


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## onegreenev (May 18, 2012)

> At 30,000 miles in 4 to 5 months, you really expect me to believe a small motor will consume more than a V8.


In a large heavy vehicle? Yes. You plan on taking a tiny engine and think you can generate enough electricity from a small generator to power a drive motor that will move your beast at speeds and length for less than it does not. Even if it works it won't be for less. It will just be a different way to power your beast. It takes X amount of power no matter what you use. You still plan on burning gasoline or diesel. Your generator will be larger than the drive motor to provide full time power to the drive motor. Then convert that back to mechanical to move the truck. 

It will more than likely be quite a bit more fuel usage as you have introduced lots of things into the mix. For one you don't drive on steel rails. Its not quite the same. Even the Volt that runs on gas and powers the drive motor still only gets maybe 40 some miles per gallon. The Gas version gets about the same. So you have not really improved a thing. 

For your application I'd fully stick with a Turbo Diesel all the way. Love my Diesel. Rarely use it now that I drive my LEAF but it does get used some. 

We are all on the same mind set. We are realistic and to date no one has presented a diesel electric without batteries. NO ONE. Here or there where you think you will find your answer. If you pursue your project it would be good to show it. So far no one has because it is found that it is not worth the money. Go all electric or Go Turbo Diesel or Propane or what ever. Leave the Diesel/Electric Trains to the tracks. 

I do however have a plan that uses a small 7hp diesel and DC generator to provide power for charging purposes. Not while I am driving.


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## whawhat (May 28, 2013)

TEV said:


> Oh boy,
> 
> Think this way : if you are satisfied with the power of the small engine, and is enough to haul your equipment too, then just replace the big engine with the small one , installing an additional generator and electric motor will be a waste of money because it will be less fuel efficient.


Hi,
Not sure I understand what you wrote. The old GMC truck will just be generator head and motor to turn it. I'm still trying to get around this fuel efficiency. If we take a standard off the shelf generator. There's a govenor that limits the rpm, so you have basically two stages, running at idle and 2,000 rpm when the load hits, say 70%. So, lets say I drive my titan v8, one hour in traffic about 30 miles. I will use about 1/4 of gas.

A generator running for one hour, will not use 4 or 5 gallons of gas. Now multiply that by how many times you commute and the time it takes.

I just can't get my head around it. How can it physically use more gas or diesel??

Now, lets keep the whole electrical system out of it for now.


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## whawhat (May 28, 2013)

dragonsgate said:


> Sounds like you are upset because you didn’t hear what you wanted to hear. No one really said you couldn’t do the things you had in mind they simply pointed out that it would be highly impractical. Have you looked into how diesel electric trains are made and work? They are quite complicated. You have not brought up anything that many if not all of us have mulled over at least once in the past. Seeing as how I have just spoken for all the rest I will add that we do try to have open minds about things. It is just that budget constraints can put a dampener on enthusiasm. Best of luck on your endeavor and I for one will be glad to see you post a super hybrid sans batteries on this Forum.



I have to say, I really appreciate the input and I'm not upset. Just very confused. I replied with someone here and will copy bit of it on your response and elaborate a bit.

If we take a standard off the shelf generator. There's a govenor that limits the rpm, so you have basically two stages, running at idle and 2,000 rpm when the load hits, say 70%. I picked some random numbers but somewhat close to their operating zone. So, lets say I drive my titan v8, one hour in traffic about 30 miles. I will use about 1/4 of gas.

A generator running for one hour, will not use 4 or 5 gallons of gas. Now multiply that by how many times you commute and the time it takes.

I just can't get my head around it. How can it physically use more gas or diesel?? 

Not sure if I ask how? and pick apart this whole thing. Then again like you mentioned, it's been tried before?

- So Having a generator head of X-value KVA, which will require a certain amount of HP to turn the generator. Which will spin ( the motor) at an rpm of around 1,000 rpm to 2,200 rpm. To produce a voltage and current I need.

* From reading everyone's response, Your battery setup will produce 30 KVA at about 20 amps to 100 amps depending on the load. In order to cruse at 65 mph. I will search on youtube to see if someone has a meter while crusing and see what the voltage and amperage are.

Is there a website that has a graph in real world what the current usage and voltage during normal acceleration, then steady state at 30 mph, 50 mph, and 70 mph ~ relative flat grade.

- Is it possible for someone to prove, in some sort of journal or something scientific that a 25 hp motor spinning at let say 2500 rpm max will be inefficient?

Thanks for reading


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## whawhat (May 28, 2013)

onegreenev said:


> In a large heavy vehicle? Yes. You plan on taking a tiny engine and think you can generate enough electricity from a small generator to power a drive motor that will move your beast at speeds and length for less than it does not. Even if it works it won't be for less. It will just be a different way to power your beast. It takes X amount of power no matter what you use. You still plan on burning gasoline or diesel. Your generator will be larger than the drive motor to provide full time power to the drive motor. Then convert that back to mechanical to move the truck.
> 
> It will more than likely be quite a bit more fuel usage as you have introduced lots of things into the mix. For one you don't drive on steel rails. Its not quite the same. Even the Volt that runs on gas and powers the drive motor still only gets maybe 40 some miles per gallon. The Gas version gets about the same. So you have not really improved a thing.
> 
> ...



Hi,

I'm not sure what is considered little. A 20 hp engine can turn a 15 KVA gen head.

A generator will only handle so much rpm so it will operator at a constant RPM and increase due to load but cap off anywhere between 1600 to 2000 rpm.

But I take it a 15 KVA generator will not produce the current I need to turn an AC motor?

I will try and research how much voltage and current is required to run an AC motor.

It's just funny that they have buses in europe that have no batteries and run off ultracapacitors and recharge at each bus stop. And my little old truck which weights nothing compared to that bus and would require barely the amount of ultracapacitors couldn't do it with a generator instead of a stopping point to recharge. The bus stop has 240 volts at 50 amps.

Tell me am I crazy, because if I can't see it and you guys can. I'll stop bugging and we can kill this thread.


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## onegreenev (May 18, 2012)

No need to kill the thread. 

If the bus has no battery pack then it is a gas or diesel or some other gas for powering an ICE with electric ASSIST. The electric motor is a generator when stopping and recharges the caps. The power from the caps is feed into the motor so the gas engine uses less to move the bus. Once moving the gas engine has little work to do. 

It takes quite a bit to run a generator that is under load. It also has to generate the required voltage and amperage. That amperage is in the hundreds of amps. 

My little setup will produce 35 volts and 400 amps. 35 volts can power my electric motor but at a very low rpm. So rather than try to use it to move my vehicle I will use it instead to just charge my pack that is 120 volts. Wrap your brain on that one.


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## jk1981 (Nov 12, 2010)

whawhat said:


> To answer your question:
> 1. I have a Nissan Titan for my work truck, I log 30,000 miles every 4 to 5 months. To help save across the board (fuel, environment) I started using the truck to just move equipment and a smaller car to move between jobsites but this isn't working.


I'd suggest getting a bigger car if the car size is the problem or sell the truck, buy a more efficient diesel one.



> 2. Because I want to use it as a work vehicle, I don't want batteries. The weight that I need to haul gear. It also puts me in a single point of failure, if the power grid goes down so do I. I'm not doing this for a novelty, I log too many miles.


Sell the truck, buy a light, reliable, efficient diesel.



> 3. Because I log too many miles, I feel the converstion factor does not apply to my case. You can buy a generator head, if you need 20 KVA, still cheaper than $12k batteries and all the electronics. I need a 24 hp motor to turn the generator head, I'm still cheaper than the batteries.


You'll burn far more gas in the hybrid/electric set-up. The gas you burn is used to overcome air resistance and rolling resistance. By adding a hybrid electric drivetrain you don't change that, you just significantly reduce the drivetrain efficiency so you're burning more gas to do the same work (plus heating your generator/motor). And you've burned a load of money in the process.



> The fuel consumption of a 24 hp motor compared to a V8 Titan.
> The emissions between the two.


24Hp at the wheels is going to struggle to get your truck up any incline at more than crawling speed, acceleration will be poor, and overall consumption will only be reduced because you'll no longer have enough power cruise at highway speed (reducing drag significantly). 24Hp at the crank will be even worse (~18 at the wheels maybe), it'll barely work.

Sorry, I know that's all negative but it's realistic. Get a lighter, smaller, more efficient truck then drive it less frequently, less far and slower if you want to save on fuel. I know some of those might not fit with your business but even going with 2 or 3 of them will make a difference.

James


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## jk1981 (Nov 12, 2010)

whawhat said:


> It's just funny that they have buses in europe that have no batteries and run off ultracapacitors and recharge at each bus stop. And my little old truck which weights nothing compared to that bus and would require barely the amount of ultracapacitors couldn't do it with a generator instead of a stopping point to recharge. The bus stop has 240 volts at 50 amps.
> 
> Tell me am I crazy, because if I can't see it and you guys can. I'll stop bugging and we can kill this thread.


The bus is a diesel (or natural gas bus). Buses move slowly so despite their size need only a small engine to keep them moving. Small engines coupled to small drivetrains are light and efficient.

Real world buses also have to accelerate at a reasonable rate which they couldn't do with a little engine so we massively oversize the engine and drivetrain which adds weight and losses in the engine which uses more fuel... a vicious circle.

So there is a solution using a small engine for cruise and small electric boost for acceleration. Energy is stored during deceleration (topped up during cruise if needed) in a small high power, low capacity reservoir (ultracaps or LiPO). The electrical system has to be capable of very high power input and output in short bursts, the rest of the time it's cooling, something they're quite good at.

It's the perfect set-up for a slow, heavy stop-start vehicle where most of the input to the electrical storage comes from what would otherwise be waste kinetic energy. It's an efficiency booster over the whole drive cycle and it could in principal make a difference to the ownership costs of a light truck if the majority of your driving was in stop start conditions but you'd need to model your usage and install very carefully to stand a chance of breaking even on cost. I doubt it's currently practical.

jk


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## whawhat (May 28, 2013)

Regarding the bus, you guys are incorrect. There's no batteries and no gas/diesel motor, it runs on all capacitors. I ask my buddy in europe, and the amps are higher for charging I was wrong. The techs that work on the bus mentioned it's not for consumers in vehicles, so someone on here metioned the whole bus would need to be filled with caps. Yes, you're correct.

The techs that run the bus mentioned my set up could work and would not burn more fuel. Rolling at steady state, yes, it does work but a 3 phase gen will not produce the juice to accelerate an AC motor. I can use ultra caps in series or combo series/parallel to get what I need but the technology is not quite there yet for the price point. A ultra cap combo setup would cost 10 to $12K. They think batteries would be cheaper. But if my goal was not to use batteries then yes caps can be used. They also mentioned step up transformers, inverter/converters, so on.

They pointed my friend to a website which would help answer some questions.
I'll put it here for you guys to check it out.

I also, didn't want to go in circles with what everyone was talking about on the converstion factor. And understand where everyone point of view is coming from now. Someone mentioned keep a smaller standard ICE with it's drivetrain and an electric motor to help with acceleration. I like that idea.

Here's the website... I don't know if it's good information, you guys are the better expert.

http://www.electric-cars-are-for-girls.com/alternator-to-generate-electric-power-for-evs.html
http://www.electric-cars-are-for-girls.com/portable-generator.html


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