# Re: [EVDL] Redonkulous EV sound requirement spoofed by Domino'sasads



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Redonkulous EV sound requirement spoofed by Domino'sasads*

Hi Jeffrey,

I am not sure where you are from - the use of the word
"Motorway" in Great Britain refers to what Americans would
call a Freeway: a controlled access road where only vehicles
that can achieve a minimum speed of 55 MPH are legal.
Obviously, pedestrians are not allowed to cross there.
(Interestingly there is a small fraction of vehicle drivers
that are forced to become pedestrian even on a Freeway, when
their vehicle stops operating....)

The term "jaywalking" is referring to crossing a street in
an illegal or reckless manner - can be crossing against a 
red light, walking in a diagonal direction, not giving 
right of way to vehicles while crossing outside a crosswalk 
or crossing where prohibited,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jaywalking
so by definition jaywalking is illegal.

Anyway, few jurisdictions have ordinances against crossing
a street at other places than intersections, though there are
occasional fatalities, often blamed on the pedestrian not
making it across mid-block and usually it is blamed on the
pedestrian (since he/she can no longer defend themselves)...

I have enough practice to not trust my life in the hands of
the next distracted driver, but I also reject the notion
that because they are distracted anyways, everyone else must
watch out because you can't expect drivers to operate their
vehicles safely. That would be the same as blaming victims
for becoming victims, instead of doing something about
the source of the problem, the perpetrators!

Cor van de Water
Chief Scientist
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
Email: [email protected] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water XoIP: +31877841130
Tel: +1 408 383 7626 Tel: +91 (040)23117400 x203 

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On
Behalf Of Jeffrey Jenkins
Sent: Monday, April 23, 2012 3:43 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Redonkulous EV sound requirement spoofed by
Domino'sasads


Cor van de Water wrote
> 
> Jeffrey,
> It is really simple and you can find it encoded in every reasonable 
> traffic law:
> If a person is driving a vehicle, he or she must take care to operate 
> the vehicle safely.

In the real world drivers are routinely distracted and only a fool would
entrust his life to every single driver on the road obeying the traffic
"rules".

Besides, most jurisdictions have laws against "jaywalking", or walking
into a motorway outside of the prescribed pedestrian crossing zones.



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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Redonkulous EV sound requirement spoofed by Domino'sasads*

Cor van de Water wrote
> 
> Hi Jeffrey,
> 
> I am not sure where you are from - the use of the word
> "Motorway" in Great Britain...

Motorway, street, boulevard, avenue, rue, whatever. You continue to get hung
up on the meaning of words and rules and laws while the gist of my argument
is that being in the right, technically speaking, is cold comfort when you
are the one sailing through the air after making intimate contact with a
car's front bumper.


Cor van de Water wrote
> ...I also reject the notion
> that because they are distracted anyways, everyone else must
> watch out because you can't expect drivers to operate their
> vehicles safely. That would be the same as blaming victims
> for becoming victims, instead of doing something about
> the source of the problem, the perpetrators!
> 

I maintain that both driver and pedestrian need to be aware of their
surroundings, and that each is responsible for their safety. Sometimes
accidents will happen regardless of the vigilance displayed by both sides -
that's an unfortunate, yet unavoidable, aspect of life - but if both parties
have taken care then it will truly be an accident, and not a "victimization
by a perpetrator".

This means I think noisemakers for EVs are stupid, btw. Your position, in
contrast, automatically suggests they are necessary - after all, you have
repeatedly taken the side of the pedestrian in your posts.



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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Redonkulous EV sound requirement spoofed by Domino'sasads*

I never said that I will step out in front of a
distracted driver and hope that he/she will pay
attention in time to avoid a crash.
Unfortunately the contact with a car bumper can
happen easily even while you never step out in the
street - simply walk around the block, cross some
driveways or similar structures where there can be
no doubt who needs to yield where and still you may 
be scooped up by someone who has their priorities 
in wrong order. I have had to tap on the hood of
the cars of drivers *only* looking over their left
shoulder for traffic in the street and totally
oblivious to pedestrians on the sidewalk that they
were about to enter...

The point is that most drivers have long forgotten
driver ed, or never had any at all - in California
you can get your license by simply memorizing some
situations and facts from the driver handbook and
after passing some multiple choice test you can sit
behind the wheel for a while with a licensed driver
who is supposed to teach you all situations and
circumstances that you might encounter on the street
and then you make a short behind-the-wheel test drive 
and that is it.

I have helped more than one person-with-a-license to
become a safe driver and actually get on a Freeway
without accidents...

My point is that drivers learn from practice, from
situations that they encounter on the street.
If a driver never encounters bicyclists or pedestrians
how can he or she be expected to behave appropriately
in the odd case that they encounter them?
That is exactly why it becomes safer in the streets
when more bicycles and pedestrians join and the
"safe routes to school" is not only finding the best
route for a group of children from their home to school
and back, but also due to the large increase in numbers 
of kids walking to school to increase the safety on the
street, because drivers adapt their behavior when they
expect that kids can be in the street.

You all probably know the outcry when a *teacher*
(who in the case that I remember was living about half
a mile away, a distance easily walked or biked in a few
minutes) made a left turn and killed a child that was
crossing in the crosswalk at the corner of the block
from the school, at the time just before classes started.
How can you not expect kids to cross there at such a time?

Anyway - let's get our own priorities in order and go back
to building and driving silent EVs and watching out for the
other traffic users who may not always expect a vehicle to
be this silent.
I still like that better than that I have to drive a car
that is LOUDER than necessary. I have been woken up in the
middle of the night from LOUD pipes too often and I think
that there is sufficient evidence that shows that noise
kills - slowly....

Cor van de Water
Chief Scientist
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
Email: [email protected] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water XoIP: +31877841130
Tel: +1 408 383 7626 Tel: +91 (040)23117400 x203 

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On
Behalf Of Jeffrey Jenkins
Sent: Monday, April 23, 2012 6:06 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Redonkulous EV sound requirement spoofed by
Domino'sasads


Cor van de Water wrote
> 
> Hi Jeffrey,
> 
> I am not sure where you are from - the use of the word "Motorway" in 
> Great Britain...

Motorway, street, boulevard, avenue, rue, whatever. You continue to get
hung up on the meaning of words and rules and laws while the gist of my
argument is that being in the right, technically speaking, is cold
comfort when you are the one sailing through the air after making
intimate contact with a car's front bumper.


Cor van de Water wrote
> ...I also reject the notion
> that because they are distracted anyways, everyone else must watch out

> because you can't expect drivers to operate their vehicles safely. 
> That would be the same as blaming victims for becoming victims, 
> instead of doing something about the source of the problem, the 
> perpetrators!
> 

I maintain that both driver and pedestrian need to be aware of their
surroundings, and that each is responsible for their safety. Sometimes
accidents will happen regardless of the vigilance displayed by both
sides - that's an unfortunate, yet unavoidable, aspect of life - but if
both parties have taken care then it will truly be an accident, and not
a "victimization by a perpetrator".

This means I think noisemakers for EVs are stupid, btw. Your position,
in contrast, automatically suggests they are necessary - after all, you
have repeatedly taken the side of the pedestrian in your posts.



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ous-EV-sound-requirement-spoofed-by-Domino-s-as-ads-tp4574247p4580274.ht
ml
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Nabble.com.

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Redonkulous EV sound requirement spoofed by Domino'sasads*



> On 23 Apr 2012 at 5:36, Jeffrey Jenkins wrote:
> 
> > you have repeatedly taken the side of the pedestrian in your posts.
> 
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Redonkulous EV sound requirement spoofed by Domino'sasads*



> On 23 Apr 2012 at 12:22, EVDL Administrator wrote:
> 
> > Its another case of deliberately kneecapping the EV.
> 
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Redonkulous EV sound requirement spoofed by Domino'sasads*

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> 
> This means I think noisemakers for EVs are stupid, btw. Your position, in
> contrast, automatically suggests they are necessary - after all, you have
> repeatedly taken the side of the pedestrian in your posts.
> 

My Curtus controller switches to 1.5 Khz (in the audible range) when the
PwM frequency is under 15% (for technical reasons having to do with
being more efficient). This causes my truck to "whine" while traveling
at slow speeds, such as backing up in a parking lot, or crawling along
forward in a parking lot.

I feel that this is a good feature. I didn't used to think that my
truck (which has big tread nosy tires on it) was super quiet, but one
day I was rolling down a hill (not under power, so no motor whine)
towards a pedestrian walking in the middle of the road reading his mail.

I had to steer off to the far side of my lane to pass him safely (I
remember thinking "Why is this bozo walking down the exact middle of the
road, doesn't he hear me coming?" and it wasn't until I saw him start
and jump in the air as I drove past him that I realized he really hadn't
heard my truck rolling down the hill.

Obviously, he wasn't paying attention and had his head in his
mail.....but still, if my truck had been making it's "low speed" whine
he probably would have noticed and stepped onto his side of the road (or
even better, onto the sidewalk...), making me less responsible for his
safety.


Jay

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Redonkulous EV sound requirement spoofed by Domino'sasads*



> Jeffrey Jenkins wrote:
> > This means I think noisemakers for EVs are stupid, btw.
> > Your position, in contrast, automatically suggests they
> > are necessary - after all, you have repeatedly taken the
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Redonkulous EV sound requirement spoofed by Domino'sasads*

For me, taking the side of the pedestrian / bicyclist
is because by and large the vehicle driver does not need
any defense - he/she is mostly being let off the hook
even for manslaughter, as long as they can say
"honestly, officer - I did not see him, he just stepped
in front of my car suddenly".
I even heard that when someone made a left turn into me
(I was going straight, the lady came from the opposite
direction and turned into the side street to my right)
and I was moving at a low speed and in a straight line
and got hit by the vehicle in the middle of the hood,
yet still the driver exclaimed that she had looked and
I came out of nowhere.... Yeah, right. 

Another reason to take the view of the non-motorist
is because I do about equal amounts of miles by car as
by bicycle, which means that I spend longer on a bike
than in a car (most days).

Yet another reason is that when I need to go somewhere,
my first thought is not "which car should I take" or
"which highway brings me there", but "which type of
transportation is appropriate?".
If the distance is short enough, I will walk there.
Else, I first consider bicycling there and only if
there is a reason not to choose for these two "natural"
transportation options will I consider using motorized
transport.
I am saying "natural" because walking and biking feels
to me like a natural means of transport - powered by
your own body, in direct contact with all your
surroundings and in general a low-stress activity.
In contrast to driving, which gives me a locked-up
feeling, disconnected from my surroundings and high
stress caused by busy traffic and risky manouvres
by incompetent drivers, playing with life and death.

But it may be just me having these preferences...

Cor van de Water
Chief Scientist
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
Email: [email protected] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water XoIP: +31877841130
Tel: +1 408 383 7626 Tel: +91 (040)23117400 x203 

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On
Behalf Of EVDL Administrator
Sent: Monday, April 23, 2012 9:53 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Redonkulous EV sound requirement spoofed by
Domino'sasads



> On 23 Apr 2012 at 5:36, Jeffrey Jenkins wrote:
> 
> > you have repeatedly taken the side of the pedestrian in your posts.
> 
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Redonkulous EV sound requirement spoofed by Domino'sasads*

Cor van de Water wrote
> ...
> I even heard that when someone made a left turn into me...
> 

Okay - you got nailed by a car. That's a good enough reason, and I can
respect that. I understand that even if you are hypervigilant you can't
necessarily prevent someone from plowing into you.

But I feel compelled to reiterate yet again that I wasn't taking the side of
either the car driver or the pedestrian. I still don't think it is
unreasonable that both should be aware of their surroundings.

I took a trip to London when I was 25 and one of the, uh, lowlights of that
trip was witnessing a pedestrian in the "zebra" just a couple feet in front
of me get her leg amputated - literally - by a bus. I recall from my
Frommers guide, or somesuch, that all traffic must instantly stop for
pedestrians in the zebra. This pedestrian - whom I believe was a native,
though it was hard to tell the accent of her screams - certainly acted like
the zebra would provide her with total protection. Unfortunately, the bus
driver didn't get that memo.

Let me tell you - seeing an impromptu street amputation really spoils your
day.



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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Redonkulous EV sound requirement spoofed by Domino'sasads*

Hi Jeffrey,

>From your description I think we have similar experience
and actually we agree - we were just looking at it from
different angles.

Regards,

Cor van de Water
Chief Scientist
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
Email: [email protected] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water XoIP: +31877841130
Tel: +1 408 383 7626 Tel: +91 (040)23117400 x203 

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On
Behalf Of Jeffrey Jenkins
Sent: Tuesday, April 24, 2012 3:36 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Redonkulous EV sound requirement spoofed by
Domino'sasads


Cor van de Water wrote
> ...
> I even heard that when someone made a left turn into me...
> 

Okay - you got nailed by a car. That's a good enough reason, and I can
respect that. I understand that even if you are hypervigilant you can't
necessarily prevent someone from plowing into you.

But I feel compelled to reiterate yet again that I wasn't taking the
side of either the car driver or the pedestrian. I still don't think it
is unreasonable that both should be aware of their surroundings.

I took a trip to London when I was 25 and one of the, uh, lowlights of
that trip was witnessing a pedestrian in the "zebra" just a couple feet
in front of me get her leg amputated - literally - by a bus. I recall
from my Frommers guide, or somesuch, that all traffic must instantly
stop for pedestrians in the zebra. This pedestrian - whom I believe was
a native, though it was hard to tell the accent of her screams -
certainly acted like the zebra would provide her with total protection.
Unfortunately, the bus driver didn't get that memo.

Let me tell you - seeing an impromptu street amputation really spoils
your day.



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ous-EV-sound-requirement-spoofed-by-Domino-s-as-ads-tp4574247p4581856.ht
ml
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