# 400Wh/kg batteries confirmed



## electric85 (Apr 10, 2008)

3 years off and who knows if they will be available for DIY'ers....would be nice...
i'm looking to buy a pack now though, when i first started my conversion, 100ah cells were over $400 sometimes $500. (anyone remember lionev.com one of the first EV parts and batteries scammers) and other places were even more expensive...who knows what is possible a few years down the road


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## steven4601 (Nov 11, 2010)

This thread needs more (factual) info!

What discharge rates does this chemistry support?
Does it need to be heated?
What about abuse / safety? 
Calender / cycle Life


Looking at the website:
45Ah to 30Ah drop in less than 200 cycles @ 1/3C 
After 200 cycles the energy is closer to 300watt/kg than 400watt/kg. Still very impressive though!!


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## Ziggythewiz (May 16, 2010)

Where'd you see that? I thought it looked like a 10% drop after 300 cycles, and 50% after 4000.

Anyway, I don't care too much about the details until it's on a shelf. It's good to hear progress though.


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## somanywelps (Jan 25, 2012)

electric85 said:


> 3 years off and who knows if they will be available for DIY'ers....would be nice...
> i'm looking to buy a pack now though, when i first started my conversion, 100ah cells were over $400 sometimes $500. (anyone remember lionev.com one of the first EV parts and batteries scammers) and other places were even more expensive...who knows what is possible a few years down the road


To be fair it said 3 years until it's in a production vehicle. 

One can only hope that we can buy them.


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## sokon (Sep 15, 2011)

actually, I would be rather content if todays topnotch batteries were available at a reasonable price (read <0.4$/Wh)


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## Ziggythewiz (May 16, 2010)

sokon said:


> actually, I would be rather content if todays topnotch batteries were available at a reasonable price (read <0.4$/Wh)


Did you forget a 0?


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## sokon (Sep 15, 2011)

nope^^ I just have modest expectations 

seriousely, the best prize for cells that are "close" to what I was referring to as todays topnotch, is a 1$/Wh group buy at endless sphere:

http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=31&t=36280

0.4$/Wh would equate in about 36$ for the 25Ah kokam cell, which for the moment would make me happy..


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## Ziggythewiz (May 16, 2010)

How are those so much better than the A123s?


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## sokon (Sep 15, 2011)

I didnt say that kokam are those topnotch cells, I said they are the closest I could find available. There is a guy who arguably knows MUCH more about batteries than I do and he says that there are batteries around that are way better than the a123 s (I think hes nick is liveforphysics or something either here or on ES) I think he mentioned LG chem NMC cells in that context.

However, I would also be happy with a123 20Ah cells for 25$ from a legitimate source, without the smuggler feeling but with support and warranty instead.. Infact, I bought some for 30$ and I am happy with them...


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## sokon (Sep 15, 2011)

As for the capacity loss, it just might be better than it looks at a first sight..

that is the answer from a user named "Envia" to a question about the capacity loss in the first few cycles... on this site:

http://www.wired.com/autopia/2012/0...omise-lower-cost-higher-range-evs/#more-43084



> Sasha, The capacity drops off in the first three cycles because the first 3 cycles were done at 100% DoD (C/20, C/10 and C/3 rates respectively). Cycles 4-400 were conducted at 80% DoD at C/3 which are typical charge/discharge profiles in automotive EV applications. By definition you'd get 80% of the original capacity.


power density remains problematic...
Mabe using those 

http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=27750
as a "power bank" would be the solution...future will tell


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## ndplume (May 31, 2010)

*Tic Toc*

OK, Its been 1 yr since Envia's claim and external testing. 
What now? Any news? Test vehicles? Test banks? More Testing? Production planning? Licensing? Sampling?

Their sites still shows the announcement from 1 yr ago...

Are their batteries officially classified with EEstor (http://www.greentechmedia.com/articles/read/eestor/) and Cold Fusion?

Just Asking...


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## somanywelps (Jan 25, 2012)

https://www.google.com/search?tbm=nws&q=envia+systems&oq=envia+systems


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## vmrod (Jul 2, 2010)

Every so often I read some new article about either a new 'miracle' battery or superconductor, or a new motor...

I do believe that these companies are making some progress, but these articles are likely to help their stock prices.

If it's too good to be true, then it probably is.

How about a battery with double the density and current output of a CALB, and half the weight and size? The cost could remain. That's enough for me!


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## Siwastaja (Aug 1, 2012)

By default, all news from new scientific/technical innovations are bogus. This has always been so, and on all fields of science and technology.

But of course, once in a while, some innovations may be true. It's just very very unlikely.

The Tesla link here would give it some extra creditability, but is it true? Has Tesla actually confirmed it on their own website?


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## rochesterricer (Jan 5, 2011)

There was an article about Envia in Charged EV Magazine a few months ago. In it, Envia said they were working on extending cycle life and are probably years away from going into production.


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## ndplume (May 31, 2010)

Thanks, I didn't see that article. 

On these big announcements, It would be nice if the new sources would follow up, even with the news presented.


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## gogreenev (Apr 1, 2013)

It's really to good to be true!
I got a news from the web that a new world record was made by a Chinese Team, they made a road test on highway with 2 electric vans,with an average speed of 90km/h on the highway,they did a 803km range and there's still 14% power left, brief information of the battery pack:
Total weight:606kg
Capacity:430AH
Voltage:355V
Total electricity:152KWH
Energy density for the pack:250wh/kg
Vehicle size:4089x1871x1695mm
Weight:1795kg
Top speed:120km/h
Range of highway road test: 803km, with 14% remaining power.

Is these bateries with 250wh/kg existing in real world ?
That would be much better that what Tesla is now using ?


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## ElectriCar (Jun 15, 2008)

My Calb SE200AH (blue box) purchased December 2010, just over two years now cost me about $385/Kwh in a package producing 90Wh/Kg. I keep checking here periodically to see if there's any dramatic improvements but I don't see them, only "press releases" with fantastic claims, some of which claim will be on the market in 2-3 years but none have made it yet or appear to be nearing production. Still stuck with old heavy expensive prismatics it seems...


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## Genius Pooh (Dec 23, 2011)

I contacted with Envia

they don't sell

and they even don't need money 

I try to buy some their stock ( of course in future - I'm poor now) but they don't sell stock T_T

I think 400watts time is take several years


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