# Liquid Heater Success



## JSRacer (Jun 22, 2008)

Hey Chamilun, nice work! Your way seems very simple. I like that!  I have a few questions for ya though. 

1. What pump did you use exactly?
2. And will the pump handle the heat okay?
3. How is the heater wired? Where exactly do you pull 120V from?

I'm sure I'll have a few more questions but I'm definitely interested and leaning towards doing it your way.


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## chamilun (Jun 17, 2008)

I used the ParMax 1. It is designed to be a faucet pump, so handles hot water without any problem. In my setup, it precedes the heater, so it is technically pumping the coolest water.

I have a two contactor setup. Positive from one side, negative from the other. the wiring on the heater has 3 wires, only two are needed. one of the wires has writing on it, that is the positive. the remaining thick wire (not the green one) is the negative. 

I use the following relay:
http://www.newark.com/18M9286/switc...otter-brumfield-prd-11dh0-12&_requestid=23795

with the following wire setup:
http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=1242&d=1225663994


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## Hondacrzy (Mar 15, 2008)

Have you put a thermometer in the vents? It would be nice to have temp reading at say 1min, 2min and so on. Thanks for the info!


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## chamilun (Jun 17, 2008)

no, I have not. You can only measure the drop from ambient outdoor temperature. I can only tell you it works, and that the heater is quite warm within 2 minutes. I think another thread (teletmania/ben?) has taken temperature measurements. Maybe later when Im not busy trying to figure out things like why my brake lights quit working I will take some more scientific measurements 

Im just most happy or comfortable that I didnt need the ceramic heater. The idea of having to take everything apart again in the case of a failed connect or something similar seemed way too possible (not discounting that there are many ceramic setups running for years without problems.)


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## Tubularfab (Sep 25, 2008)

I think I'd recommend adding a small surge tank from the cooling system of an ICE car to give you a slight reservior and expansion area - should cut down on tendancies to leak as well. Biggest thing with adding the tank is for a little coolant reserve and visual sight for coolant level - it really is not good to run those liquid heaters dry...


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## chamilun (Jun 17, 2008)

nah. I bought an auxiliary tank for that purpose, but decided against. the website that has two examples of builds (budget and extreme) uses liquid heaters in one of their setups, and do not use a reservoir. I agree with your logic, but it complicates things a bit, and this is simplicity first, to quote the kiwi.


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## Tom W (Jun 9, 2008)

Nice job Chamilun, what web site has the examples? Looking forward to your pictures. My pack voltage is 144. Do you think the heater could handle it?


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## chamilun (Jun 17, 2008)

check out metricmind. i think it was them who has both the liquid unit they sell, plus an example from several years ago that had a system that used a separate pump and heater.


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## atzi (Jun 26, 2008)

I am installing a liquid heater. Thanks for the info and hope to see your pictures soon. Bought mine from http://www.evamerica.com and I believe it was made by...
http://www.classicelectrics.com/


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## chamilun (Jun 17, 2008)

atzi,
what part of TN are you in?


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## atzi (Jun 26, 2008)

Jackson, TN and you?


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## chamilun (Jun 17, 2008)

north of Nashville.

my wife went and tried to register the vehicle the other day and the DMV office had no idea what to do. Apparently, I was the first to do this in our county. I know there is at least one EV in Metro Nashville; however, I do not know if he ever actually registered his conversion.

They gave me a form that is intended for altered vehicles, more along the lines of salvage, meaning if a car has been altered, what 'exactly' was done. The sheet is asking more for bumper replacement, quarter panel, etc. Im not certain yet what they will make of all engine components removed, etc.

Ill have pictures up Saturday with a few more details of what the liquid setup looks like.


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## atzi (Jun 26, 2008)

chamilun said:


> north of Nashville.
> 
> my wife went and tried to register the vehicle the other day and the DMV office had no idea what to do. Apparently, I was the first to do this in our county. I know there is at least one EV in Metro Nashville; however, I do not know if he ever actually registered his conversion.
> 
> ...


Check out EValbum http://www.evalbum.com/geo/Tennessee
There are 16 ev's listed there from Tennessee. Let me know how the registering goes, What if we just, register them? 
I wonder, are there any tax advantages to registering green?


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## chamilun (Jun 17, 2008)

we have emissions testing here; otherwise, I would have just registered and rolled >>>oh yeah, im already rolling anyway  hopefully no govt officials monitor these forums.


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## chamilun (Jun 17, 2008)

added three rough pictures. in one, you can see where I mounted the pump to the plastic aux battery holder. this absorbs any vibration the pump puts off.

another pic shows the heater hoses going into the stock heater core.

yet another shows the pump removed with the two 4 inch pieces of 5/16" hose going into the adapter.

you can see the actual heater mounted against the firewall. Next step is to insulate the heater hoses coming off the heater to maximize efficiency and avoid any damage to surrounding components.


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## TelnetManta (Jun 5, 2008)

Great work Chamilun!!!! I posted a small write up on my site that shows the components for this system. Not trying to hijack your thread but thought it would be good info for those that follow.

http://www.upstate-ev.com/?p=46


As soon as I get my mechanical problem sorted I'll be able to enjoy that wonderful heat again 



Ben in SC


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## Tom W (Jun 9, 2008)

Ben, what is your pack voltage? Mine is 144V and I am considering using an inverter to get 120V A/C. Do any of these heaters have a built in pump? 
Thanks, Tom


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## TelnetManta (Jun 5, 2008)

Mine is 144V and they do not have a built in pump. You have to add it separately.

Ben


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## JSRacer (Jun 22, 2008)

Got 2 questions.  

1. We have a 120V pack, of course DC. Now how does a 120V AC heater work with DC voltage? Is this a problem at all? And if not could you please explain?

2. Chamilun, we are concerned about a closed system building too much pressure and possibly bursting somewhere, maybe the heater core. We've tested your setup out of the vehicle and WOW does it get hot! So our next step is to see the heat loss through the heater core. Is pressure a concern to you in a closed system?

Thanks!


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## chamilun (Jun 17, 2008)

JSRacer

1. heater runs fine off of dc. I have been *told* that the heater's internal 170 degree (?) thermostat will not operate under dc, however & unfortunately. The AC is rectified to DC, so if you hook straight to DC, it simply passes straight through. no problem.

2. I am not concerned about pressure within the heater core, mainly because the Parmax 1 cuts off at 35 psi. I was actually intially concerned that it would not run at all because the closed system pressure would be too high; alas, it never cuts off unless switched off. 

3. Once connected to your vehicle, you will see that the heater core dissipates the heat nicely into the cabin, further keeping the pressure rise down. I never hooked my system up without running through the heater core, and probably wouldnt recommend it.


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## Beyonder (Sep 18, 2008)

I just skimmed this thread, but why not just put a pressure release valve in it?


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## JSRacer (Jun 22, 2008)

At what pressure? Hard to determine.


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## popeye2008 (May 17, 2008)

Has anyone investigated using one of these camping water heaters? There may be a number of issues on the down side like control, safety, temperature, adaptation, how long a bottle of gas will last, convenience, etc. The upside is it would not use power from the battery pack like a resistance heater. Just something I thought I'd throw out there for consideration. Any thoughts?

Something like this;
http://www.coleman.com/coleman/ColemanCom/newsrelease.asp?releasenum=215


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Seems as if it might work but I just found this review which doesn't sound great:


> This unit DOES NOT WORK WHEN OUTSIDE TEMPS GET BELOW ABOUT 55 DEGREES. The battery low light will come on, even if unit is fully charged. The unit will not work if plugged into a charging cicuit.


http://reviews.pricegrabber.com/compass-maps-poles-accessories/m/1776870/ut=45ca4ef7bea597b7


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## Beyonder (Sep 18, 2008)

JSRacer said:


> At what pressure? Hard to determine.


 Well, how hot is this going to get? It its equivalent to a household hot water heater, then a pressure release valve from a household hot water heater tank would do. 

If this is a sealed its going to build a lot of pressure, so if no release valve then an open atmosphere storage/overflow tank should do the trick.

Also, why use an electric water pump? If this is on an EV then why not use an automotive water pump connected to the motor? Use one from a dodge caravan,etc. They don't require being mated to the block to complete the pump.

Another alternative and possible more efficient system maybe to build a small oil type heater, like the ones you can buy at Walmart for 50.00, only smaller. The element should run on DC and if memory serves the digital t-stat is run on dc ( stepped down inside ). This may eleviate some of the headaches since they don't require a pressure release valve. If the element wont work on DC, you could pickup a 12volt kettle from walmart, they have a 12V, 15 AMP element in them, they take about 15-20 min to boil water, since your not boiling the fluid only heating it you should have heat I'd say in 5 - 10 minutes...just a thaught.


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## Beyonder (Sep 18, 2008)

popeye2008 said:


> Has anyone investigated using one of these camping water heaters? There may be a number of issues on the down side like control, safety, temperature, adaptation, how long a bottle of gas will last, convenience, etc. The upside is it would not use power from the battery pack like a resistance heater. Just something I thought I'd throw out there for consideration. Any thoughts?
> 
> Something like this;
> http://www.coleman.com/coleman/ColemanCom/newsrelease.asp?releasenum=215


 They're instant hot water heaters, they only use gas when the water needs to be heated. I was told once the bottles are only good for 20 gallons of water. That could be wrong tho..

Adaption would be easy. Basically the same as an infloor heating system using tankless heaters. 

Temperature is controllable via a dial (same as your household water tank) 

You'd still have a draw on the batter pack, since you would need a small pump, something small like a 1/8HP motor would probably supply a sufficient flow rate. If memory serves this is around 2 or 3 GPM. So you still going to use 93.25 watts per hour. A small resistance heater, if your not looking for super hot temp right that instant can be as small as 50 watts... You shouldn't need that much to heat your fluid, e.g. a 60 Gallon Household tank heats up in about 2-3 hours. at 1500 watts of operating power. This system is talking about how much? 5, maybe 10 gallons right? So with 5 gallons, 1500 watts will heat up to household temps in 8 - 15 minutes. Also note that the elements kick in and kick out so they dont run 100% load. Based on a ICE, coolant is still fairly hot for 15 to 20 minutes ( at least ) after you shut down the engine, so lets say for arguements sake that you run a 15% duty cycle your going to consume 225 watts of power per hour ( not counting the pump since you'll need that with the tankless system as well ). 
So the toss up is an extra 225 watts of battery reserve or propane bottles. Given the cost, the tankless camper heaters run around 200.00 or so, a 5 gallon tank would have to be made since they're not readily available so give or tank 50.00 ( If you DIY ). 2 12v deep cycle batteries with 100 amp capacity ( 240 watts total ) runs around 200.00 for both at the local RV dealership. So now it'll cost you about 50.00 more for the resistance heater system, however your going to pay 4.00/bottle for the tankless system. The question now is, how much do you drive? If a bottle of propane runs you for 20 gallons, if you heat the coolant once and only once when for each trip of 1 hr and only drive for 1hr per day your goint to use 50.00 worth of propane bottles in 12.5 trips. 
An alternative to this would be to tie in a automotive propane tank and fill it at the pump, however this will cost you between 15 - 20.00 to fill each time They hold about 26 Litres...should last 10 -15 times longer than small bottles, however if 1 of these tanks runs you 10 times longer, that'll last you 120 days....you'll consume 2 tanks/yr. Still 40.00...so it'll be 10.00 cheaper than batteries ( I'm not accounting for weigh because of the added weight of batteries ).

So really, both systems appear to be able to be made fairly equally, However the one advantage of added batteries is when you don't need the heater you gain extra range for your EV. 
With all this being said IMO if its a tossup for a gas/resistance heater heating system, I personally would go with the resistance heater.

I posted before this an idea to go with a oil type heater simular to the ones you can buy at walmart...I personally believe this is the better system over both gas and resistance heater with a pump..since you could run a 180 watts resistance heater in the oil...consumption is 138 watts less ( combined between the heater element and the water pump in the previous system ).


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

5 gallons is way more than you need. I think people are running a gallon or less in their systems. I don't think a relief valve or expansion tank is needed if you keep temperatures low enough. Flexible hoses in such a small system can probably expand enough.


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## chamilun (Jun 17, 2008)

i know its a discussion forum, and therefore ideas should be thrown around, but....

If you have an idea, why not make a functional prototype? There are several EVs that use a kettle burner, or toaster style elements, etc. As my father reminded me recently, there are only so many ways to make heat. 

Liquid systems use less than 1/2 a gallon of antifreeze, for what its worth. I personally do not like the idea of propane or other fossil fuels as that goes a bit against the primary intention of the EV.

I would LOVE to see someone figure out a way to use a heat pump. It could both heat and cool, and probably be pretty efficient.


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## Beyonder (Sep 18, 2008)

JRP3 said:


> 5 gallons is way more than you need. I think people are running a gallon or less in their systems. I don't think a relief valve or expansion tank is needed if you keep temperatures low enough. Flexible hoses in such a small system can probably expand enough.


 Good point, however in a radiator the cap is what 15lbs or something? I'll look on my wifes van later. A gallon makes the power consumption way less. I wouldn't run a closed pressure system...even if for peace of mind... just my opinion tho...




> i know its a discussion forum, and therefore ideas should be thrown around, but....
> 
> If you have an idea, why not make a functional prototype? There are several EVs that use a kettle burner, or toaster style elements, etc. As my father reminded me recently, there are only so many ways to make heat.
> 
> ...


-i'm not sure if this was meant for me, but I'm still working on the electric motor for a future ev...LOL. I'm a ways off of any other projects...

- Why would liquid systems use les than 1/2 a gallon of antifreeze? A ICE heater holds a gallon or more, plus you need to account for storage and the lines...?

- Heat pump...its been done, I dont remember where I read it online so I cant offer any links, however I seen one that was built useing thermoelectric modules (tiny heatpumps). Cooling/Heating switching is done by reversing the polarity....


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## chamilun (Jun 17, 2008)

several people have built liquid heat systems, and can attest to the amount of liquid it takes. its not really a debate, just the fact of how it works.

I assume you havent started your conversion yet. I hope you start soon, because its really fun, and you learn a lot. First lesson is unlearn everything you know about gas cars 

as Ive used the heater several times not, I can attest that it does not explode from the pressure buildup, nor have there been any reports. If mine explodes, Ill report it immediately.


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## Beyonder (Sep 18, 2008)

chamilun said:


> several people have built liquid heat systems, and can attest to the amount of liquid it takes. its not really a debate, just the fact of how it works.
> 
> I assume you havent started your conversion yet. I hope you start soon, because its really fun, and you learn a lot. First lesson is unlearn everything you know about gas cars
> 
> as Ive used the heater several times not, I can attest that it does not explode from the pressure buildup, nor have there been any reports. If mine explodes, Ill report it immediately.


-I wasn't trying to argue..where are they getting they're heater cores from? I was under the impression they they would be using the stock heater core. I also made the mistake of thinking of an ICE in terms of coolant in the lines. So I guess my question now is 1/2 gallon of water is about 2 litres...the heater tank has to be fairly close to the heater core...I'm assuming they're 2 units since theres a pump involved? IF there is a pump and if they are 2 units...why is there a pump? You shouldn't need it if the heater is that close...

- No i haven't started it yet. I'm a ways away from starting ( moving 600km east from here next june to build my house ). 

- And where do you get internet in emergency? lol, I'm j/k. Although you may not need the pressure relief valve on there for your safety, there are several other benefeits to having it depending on the overall design of the system, one good example is control in the even that it does rupture ( e.g. the Tstat fuses togethor allowing several hundred amps to flow into the element superheating the water creating EXTREME pressure....I think this is the worst cast scenerio tho ) you could control the discharge of the coolant to say underneath the vehicle. This not only saves any electronics in your vehicle but also the interior,etc and possibly yourself or passengers from burns. So other than safety from explosion there are other benefits to having it. A 25.00 valve is a lot cheaper to install than to replace the 200.00 stereo you have...
- Another thing to consider ( in my experience anyways ) is that in boiler design they always incorporate pressure relief valves, no matter the pressure. Another thing to look at is read any Steam book, or website, the first and formost thing they strongly suggest is to make sure you have adiquate relief.

http://http://www.otherpower.com/steamengine.shtml

This boiler here, is a good example...although its much larger the principles are the same. This boiler goes to 80PSI....read the warnings in there about steam...80PSI is nothing...a household hot water tank runs between that and 150PSI...both have a relief valve. Hot water heaters ( the old radiator type ) have relief valves on them. 

Now with that being said, I would be very interested if anyone here has tested the pressure of one of these heatings systems in a vehicle with a proper pressure guage...so if anyone has or knows of a link with a vid I'm eager to see it. 

And with all of that being said, You said that you've used these systems and not had any exploding problems...I'm happy to hear that, however ( I'm not saying your wrong ) there is a possibility that you have been lucky. I have experience working with boilers, etc and I can tell you there is always pressure relief valves. Usually more than 1. However taking into consideration that you have successfully used a system and not had it explode I would suggest that perhaps not using a pressure relief valve could create a weak point in the hoses of the system. I could see them prematurely failing causing a leak which would spray everywhere potentially damaging your electronics and creating a very dangerous driving situation due to the fogging of the windows and release of glycol in a gaseous state into the cab of the vehicle. When I say premature failure I am suggesting potential failure of a hose in the system in say a year - 2 years instead of the 3-5 they should last.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

These are not boilers. Heater cores are enclosed inside heater boxes, if the core ever did burst or leak. Not saying a relief valve is a bad idea, just that there seems little reason to use one.


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## chamilun (Jun 17, 2008)

i agree. i think its time to stop this strangely ridiculous discourse.

back to driving..........


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## Beyonder (Sep 18, 2008)

JRP3 said:


> These are not boilers. Heater cores are enclosed inside heater boxes, if the core ever did burst or leak. Not saying a relief valve is a bad idea, just that there seems little reason to use one.


 Any device in which heats and pressurizes water and or a glycol based coolant (antifreeze) is a boiler. And no, not in all vehicles are the heater cores enclosed in side the heater box. And majority of the ones that are are only coverd by a shroud ( at least the ones I've seen ).

Hmm...I don't think I've explained why one is so important properly then...consider this, in an ICE the radiator pressurizes to 15lbs of pressure, this is with an open atmosphere unit ( expansion tank ). When you close this your pressure shoots up. A boiler in terms is a fuel heated device. A home hotwater tank is an electric heated device..the basic principles are the same. They both have safety valves for VERY good reasons...take a pot of water, weld it shut and heat it up on your stove? How long until the pressure reaches criticle and explodes? Your doing the same thing on a much smaller scale. 

Again, I point out any hoses that are only good to a certain pressure...it doesnt matter whether you've heated a litre of water or 100 gallons of water, heated water creates pressure....pressure when it has no where to go expands...and EVEN if it doesn't burst your heater core, what about your hoses? What about the hose connections? Maybe you don't have the connections in the cab of the vehicle? Perhaps they're under the hood....perfect...the connection breaks and starts spraying coolant everywhere....gots nicely to your electric motor...perfect...now your feeding 144 volts and HUNDREDS of amps into the chasis of the vehicle...what is the chance that neither you or your family are not touching anything metal? slim to none...how many people can withstand 144 volts and several hundred amps running through there body?

This is the worst case scenerio..may never happen, but I have 4 children and 1 on the way...this is what I think of. 

Heres another...compare a household hot water tank...to your heater core designed to run on a 15 PSI system....you heat that coolant to 170 degrees...your pushing 150 PSI...10 times the pressure its meant to run on ( noted here i have no idea the maximum pressure you could get away with )....what happens if the tstat DOES fail sending power into that element??? more heat = more pressure...what happens when a closed unit storage tank ( e.g. a boiler ) reaches critical??? Are you or any of your passengers going to survive the spray of metal? not counting the resulting accident your going to get into if your driving...possibly driving down the freeway...how many people will you hit?

How would you explain to your family or the familys of anyone who got killed that it happened because you didn't see the point in not spending 25.00 for your heating system. 

That would be like removing the brakes from an ICE because you could gear down and use the compression of the engine to stop the vehicle. Would you say its fair to say theres no point in keeping your brakes because you can stop your vehicle by gearing down?

Bottom line is....whether you feel you need it or not, there are more worst case scenerios than best case scenerios. 25.00 is 25.00. If you're spending thousands converting your vehicle why not put a measly 25.00 extra to guarentee none of the scenerio's i point out EVER happen.


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## Beyonder (Sep 18, 2008)

chamilun said:


> i agree. i think its time to stop this strangely ridiculous discourse.
> 
> back to driving..........


 Ridiculous? WTF seriously? This thread is on "Liquid Heater Success" and the point I have made about pressure relief valves is VERY important and NOT Strangely ridiculous...

You wanna prove me wrong? find a commercial kit for this very thing, one that is DOT approved and not to mention anyone that has managed to get it past inspection....then you can call it ridiculous....until then give your head a shake man...you have no idea what your playing with here....

- Can you guarentee that the tstat will not fail dumping power non stop into the heater element????
- Answer : NO

- Can you guarentee the core (rated for way less a pressure than your running it at ) will not burst or one of the hoses with not rupture ever?
- Answer : NO

- What will happen if a host ruptures?
- Answer : If under the hood, under the pressure equivalent to that of a hot water tank will spray everwhere underneath the hood, created a spectacular path for the electric current from not only the connections on your controller but your electric motor into the chasis of the vehicle!

- Can you guarentee that the core will not burst and if it does that it will not explode?
- Answer : NO! Even if it doesn't explode it will spray everywhere...Would you stick your hand under a tap running only hot water in your house with your HW tank set at 170 degrees????? 

- Are you prepared to NOT spend 25.00 and take the risk of something happening ...whether it be someone getting electrocuted, the core exploding...a line bursting and ruining some if not all of your electronics..???
- Answer - ( You'll have to answer this )

*IMO anyone who runs a system and does not put a pressure relief valve in there system because "they dont see the point" is a careless and irrisponsible person who should have there license taken anway and they're nice shiny new projected crushed before there very eyes!!!*

* SAFETY is not something to ignore...I cannot believe that anyone on here who would build an electric car to help save the environment stop pollution to save lives would so recklessly ignore a small thing like a pressure relief valve putting not only the lives of there passengers but anyone around them when the system fails in danger!!!*

The only thing ridiculous here is anyone who ignores safety!!


Just wait...one of you who ignore that 25.00 valve...it'll happen...And i hope you live through it! Then you will spend the rest of your life thinking about that 25.00 valve and how it was "not important"....

I dont think i will post on this thread again and I suggest that the mods should close it since you people clearly dont care about the safety of others around you...

Enjoy...


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Beyonder said:


> And no, not in all vehicles are the heater cores enclosed in side the heater box. And majority of the ones that are are only coverd by a shroud ( at least the ones I've seen ).


If they aren't enclosed, (which I've never seen one that wasn't), how is air ducted through it without leaking out all over? Makes no sense.
You should also make an effort to waterproof your high voltage systems from any stray liquids.
However, you do make a good case for a relief valve.


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## Beyonder (Sep 18, 2008)

JRP3 said:


> If they aren't enclosed, (which I've never seen one that wasn't), how is air ducted through it without leaking out all over? Makes no sense.
> You should also make an effort to waterproof your high voltage systems from any stray liquids.
> However, you do make a good case for a relief valve.


on my 90 ford ranger the air duct was mounted in front of the heater core, it did not cover this. The sides were not covered. On the back side there was another plastic thing mounted with a baffle the changed via controls to either draw air from inside the cab or from the outside source. Any vehicle that has a control with the option to draw air from inside the cab rather than outside is not fully covered. It will have a supply air duct from inside the cab. Cheap cars like sprints, firefly's, S10's, S15s ....umm...I believe the Dakotas are exposed as well...I don't remember about the neons. I could look in 2 weeks when I'm at my other place ( I have a neon I was going to convert ).

-Yes I agree with waterproofing, but you cant, not 100%...you have vent holes in your electric motor dont you? as well as your controller? You can do your best, but you'll never get it 100% and as I said...a 25.00 part to guarentee that ANY of the scenerio's (no matter how extreme) that I suggested never happen is well worth it.

-Thankyou...I do apoligize if I am harsh with what I have to say...I have seen first hand what happens to a heater core when you close the system with an ICE and its not pretty.


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## atzi (Jun 26, 2008)

My recommendation:*
Never ever* run a liquid system without a maximum 15 psi relief valve. 
*In fact never have one with a closed system at all.*
Something will always go wrong......., pressure will always build, this pressure will effect not just the factory core but all hoses, the box and the pump seams.


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## engineer_Bill (Jun 24, 2008)

Good points on the pressure releif valve. I was considering a liquid heter system. to prevent pressure buildup I was thinking of having a reservor that is open and fill with liquid above the level of the heater core, and element so the only worry I will have is to keep this reservor "FULL!". As boiling dry will eliminate the safety feature of keeping heater element below boiling point of water. Even at low temperatures some steam, release of disolved gasses will happen without any way to add liquid and release pressure eventually it will leak or burst, superheated, (water heated obove the boiling point at abient pressure) water can flash to steam very quickly causing painfull steam burns to people nearby, (I have seen this happen in a simple heated recirc loop). A flowmeter or liquid sensor attached to heater to cutoff current in case pressure release happens is a good thing.


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## chamilun (Jun 17, 2008)

as this is my thread  I shall now retake ownership.

this is not a theoretical discussion thread. If you have an idea to improve the design, please post what EXACT pressure relief valve you would use, (similar to what specific check valve you would use in a brake pump setup). Maybe you would use an expansion tank, or maybe somehow incorporating a 15 psi radiator cap. 

I appreciate everyones input, but water boils at 212. antifreeze mixed with water is even higher. the boiling point increases further when placed under pressure. therefore, a closed system requires MORE energy to vaporize the liquid (or read another way, blow the system). The AF mixture does expand when heated, thus explaining why you dont cram the system as full as possible. *But please, dont feel the need to refute any of this. Its not the point.*

in other words, there is room for expansion within the closed system, and the heat used in this setup is not equal to what an engine produces. not even close. If this was heating to 250 degrees, Id be worried, but also happier, because there would be more heat for the cabin.

so again, theory is fun, but not for this thread. If you have what you believe to be a better circuit, post what you would use. even better, post what you have USED.


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## JSRacer (Jun 22, 2008)

Wow, this became a popular subject!

Tonight we ran our closed system liquid heater in the Eagle Summit and it was very nice, very comfy heat. A success in my opinion.

We are basically doing what Chamilun suggested originally. Big difference is that we will control the pump with a toggle switch. We will also have a toggle for the heater. The heater will never run unless the pump is running (not sure how, but we'd like to wire it this way). When the heater gets up to temp we will be able to switch it off and keep the antifreeze/water mix circulating through the heater core with the pump. Surprisingly it stays warm quite awhile after the heater is turned off. We hope to use the old temp gauge on the dash that the ICE sending unit was hooked to. Anyone have any other suggestions on how to get a accurate temp while behind the wheel? 

There will be some pressure but as Chamilun said in an earlier post, it doesn't seem like it will be much of a problem. Later we plan to run the system again and we'll use a pressure gauge to get an accurate measure of pressure in this closed system.

I'll be sure to keep checking back and someday soon I will have pictures and hopefully nothing but good news about this system.


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## chamilun (Jun 17, 2008)

thats a great idea I never even considered: how to connect the dash temp gauge to the heater. Probably just need to find the original temp sensor and connect it up, maybe needing a resistor to shift the readings. 

I like your idea also of using two switches. 
Use your pump switch to go directly to the pump and additionally to the heater switch. The heater switch now controls the heater relay. So, to power the heater relay, you need both switches on.

Have you determined yet if the heater is cycling power with its internal thermostat? I have yet to see this happen, and do believe the thermostat does not function with dc.


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## Beyonder (Sep 18, 2008)

> this is not a theoretical discussion thread. . Maybe you would use an expansion tank, or maybe somehow incorporating a 15 psi radiator cap.
> *.*


Hmm, I'm not really sure how to respond since it appears you have either had a blind fold on or never read any of my posts!!!

Now, that being said...I said nothing theoretical here! You *MUST HAVE, FOR SAFETY REASONS *a pressure relief valve in *ANY *closed heating system. I have repeatedly pointed this out and explained why...I will recap since you obviously missed it!

"You cannot guarantee that the thermostat in your system will not fail! If it does and fuses then it will continue to heat the coolant until it *EXPANDS TO SUCH A POINT IT CAN AND WILL BLOW UP IN YOUR FACE!*" 

As per the rad cap, this will do nothing..it seals the system.
As per the expansion tank, the system will no longer be a closed liquid heating system, this is now an open atmosphere system. *IF *an ICE did not have the expansion tank it would have a pressure relief valve in play.



> If you have an idea to improve the design, please post what EXACT pressure relief valve you would use, (similar to what specific check valve you would use in a brake pump setup)


 Again...I suggest the blindfold or you did not read what I posted!!! I will recap !

"You are essentially using the same system as your household hot water tank...They have pressure relief valves in them and so must your system! *YOU COULD USE A PRESSURE RELIEF VALVE FROM A HOT WATER TANK*. Maybe go back and read...I don't know how many times I asked the question if a 25.00 pressure relief valve is worth the safety factor."




> I appreciate everyones input, but water boils at 212. antifreeze mixed with water is even higher. the boiling point increases further when placed under pressure. therefore, a closed system requires MORE energy to vaporize the liquid (or read another way, blow the system). The AF mixture does expand when heated, thus explaining why you dont cram the system as full as possible.


 WOW! You really have no idea how wrong you are here. Water in a closed system will heat much faster, thus building pressure... E.G. you put a lid on your pot when cooking pasta to make the water boil faster. when you take off the lid you relieve the pressure. IF you don't cook, try it..you will see I am right.
If you do not "cram the system as full as possible" you will have air pockets, the system will loose efficiency and when pumping it will rattle, not to mention build more pressure ( similar to a boiler, when the water portion is low the steam pressure increases drastically, you open the intake for fresh water to lower the boilers pressure ). 

Now most of all to mention the legality of this system you propose! wait...ITS COMPLETELY ILLEGAL! lol. Dont believe me? Phone your local building inspector and ask them if you can install a hot water tank and remove the pressure reliefe valve...tell them its ok because you'r only going to fill the 60 gallon tank with 30 gallons of water. Dont waste your time because I can hear them laughing from here. Seriously...safety is nothing to "not worry about". 

Please dont take any offence to what I've said, I mean none. I am simply tired of people ignoring safety factors. Also, if you had read my posts you would have seen that I did in fact do everything you requested...I will recap so that you don't have to reread all my rambling on here :

1. Q. What pressure relief valve? 
A. Goto your local hardware store and ask for a pressure relief valve for a hot water tank simular to the size of the tank your using.

2. - An idea to improve the design
- 1. Install a pressure relief valve for *SAFETY AND LEGAL *reasons.
- 2. Do away with a pump/tank system. Since this is DIY I suggest ( as
I did previously ) pulling apart an oil heater ( the household type from
walmart). Drill the appropriate hole in the top( for the element )...weld
or solder shut the inlet and outlet portion of the stock heater core. 
Use the oil from the walmart heater and fill the heater core. You can 
use the existing tstat control circutry from the heater modied slightly 
to fit into the dash of your vehicle. If you dont want to do this, you 
can use any digital tstat wired to a relay to turn the element on and 
off. ( This incidently is the design I am planning to use for my 
upcoming EV build )
*Advantages *
- No pressure relief valve
- Closed no maintenance system
- Heats faster and stays hot longer than a 
water/glycol based mixture ( e.g. antifrezze ).
- Uses less electricity to operate since there is no
pump used. This allows you potentially more range.
- If a proper relay ( I do not have one specifically in 
mind ) simular to that found in a household furnace 
were used you could wire this directly into your 
battery bank. This removes the need for separate 
batteries.
- Digital controls not only look better but will keep a 
more accurate cab temperature. 
- Since there is no pump/separate tank this takes up 
less space and overall weighs less than your 
proposed system. 
*Dissadvantages* - Not available in a pre-built setup. 
- ....you will have to add more you can think 
of since I cannot think of any more.


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## Beyonder (Sep 18, 2008)

> Tonight we ran our closed system liquid heater in the Eagle Summit and it was very nice, very comfy heat. A success in my opinion.


 Bad idea without a pressure relief valve ( last time I'm saying this..don't worry )



> We are basically doing what Chamilun suggested originally. Big difference is that we will control the pump with a toggle switch. We will also have a toggle for the heater. The heater will never run unless the pump is running (not sure how, but we'd like to wire it this way). When the heater gets up to temp we will be able to switch it off and keep the antifreeze/water mix circulating through the heater core with the pump. Surprisingly it stays warm quite awhile after the heater is turned off. We hope to use the old temp gauge on the dash that the ICE sending unit was hooked to. Anyone have any other suggestions on how to get a accurate temp while behind the wheel?



There are upsides and down sides to what you want to do. First for making it so that the heater will not run unless the pump is running is simple, tie in a 10.00 radio shack relay ( good to 35volts, and 50 amps max ) into the toggle that you turn your pump on with. ( This is the same idea to connecting aux lights to your high beam on 4x4's..or any other vehicle for that matter ) You will also eliminate 1 toggle this way. No harm should come if your heater core is on, since it should have an thermostat so that it does not superheat the water/antifreeze mixture causing it to explode. The T-stat will turn the heater element on/off when needed. The coolant should stay heated for about 20 minutes after you shut the system off. 
As for an accurate temperature behind the wheel, it cant be done. The reason is your car/truck does not report accurate temperatures in its stock form, it only gives you a close idea. 
However if you want something in the gauge cluster that is accurate, I would buy an aftermarket temperature sending unit and gauge. The sender should have a connection to tie into the hose between your core and heating tank ( they are meant to be spliced into the RAD hose on a ICE ), should be a simple fit. For the in dash gauge, you will have to pull your gauge cluster apart. Remove the old ( useless ) temp gauge, you will need to pull the aftermarket gauge apart and reassemble the gauge cluster of your vehicle. It sounds more complicated than it really is, however most gauge clusters that i have pulled apart break down into sub clusters. Everything should go back together the same as it came apart. A much simpler idea might to be to get a digital readout and install it in an unused portion of the gauge cluster.



> There will be some pressure but as Chamilun said in an earlier post, it doesn't seem like it will be much of a problem. Later we plan to run the system again and we'll use a pressure gauge to get an accurate measure of pressure in this closed system.


 Any pressure is to much without a relief valve.This is because you cannot gaurentee that your system will not short out bypassing the tstat overheating and building pressure. 
When you measure it, plz post here so everone knows what pressure they should use for a relief valve. 

-----------------------------------------------------------------------




> Have you determined yet if the heater is cycling power with its internal thermostat? I have yet to see this happen, and do believe the thermostat does not function with dc.


 It shouldn't. However you can buy DC tstats from rv dealers. Also, I don't know exactly which, but some aquarium heaters have a low voltage DC tstat. This could be modified with a relay to work on the tank.
You could also use an external household digital tstat that runs on batteries. Wire this to a relay and it'll turn on and off the entire system based on cab temperature of your vehicle.



> I like your idea also of using two switches.
> Use your pump switch to go directly to the pump and additionally to the heater switch. The heater switch now controls the heater relay. So, to power the heater relay, you need both switches on.


 What pumps are you using? Why not do away with the pump alltogethor? I posted my sugestion before about using a oil heater from walmart to make a dc heater for an EV. You could do the same using water/antifreeze mixture ( just wont be as efficient as the oil heater setup ). However you will elmininate the pump, the hoses and need a simple on/off connection to a tstat.
You should never run a switch directly to the pump, you should have a relay in there.


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## chamilun (Jun 17, 2008)

beyonder,
i thought of a lot of ways to respond to your posts, but ill be brief. (and yes, though maybe unfortunately for me, I have only read maybe 3 sentences of your posts.).
do me a favor. Please go back and delete all of your posts. Every single one. Now, write a nice, concise post, and without any bs, simply say this (ill put it in quotes just to pretend that you wrote it. I promise, you will still get credit):


> all closed hot water heating systems require a temperature and pressure relief valve. Most have threaded connections, and could be easily integrated into the system. Hope this helps you guys. Thanks


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

I think that's a little over the top. Beyonder made his points, it's up to the individual to agree with them or not. Yes this is "your" thread, but when you put something up for public comment you might not agree with all the comments.

Re- the oil heater idea. It defeats one of the main benefits of using the pump setup, not having to tear apart the dash and mess with the heater core, a real pain in the ass in many vehicles.

As to sizing a relief valve by the proper water heater tank size, most of these systems aren't using a tank and are using less than 1 gallon in the system. No water heater that I know of uses less than 1 gallon. Also, water heater pressure valves are probably rated higher than car systems are designed for. A radiator cap is set to vent at 15 psi while house water systems regularly run at 50psi and higher. I bet a home water heater relief valve is set higher than a heater core and hoses are designed for so a lower pressure valve would be necessary.


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## chamilun (Jun 17, 2008)

over the top was entirely my point.

ego driven, dictatorial posts are not helpful to anyone. How many threads have been busted up (lifepo4, recent example) by people who want to just shoot arrows and show how brilliant they are. Its very easy to be critical. And oh yeah, the most critical posters have not even started their conversion. 

Maybe Im the only one that thinks this way? If so, Ill just shut up and listen.

and jrp3, I agree entirely that a household PRvalve is entirely out of the question. there are several designed for RV use that would work, but again, I don't see the need.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

chamilun said:


> and jrp3, I agree entirely that a household PRvalve is entirely out of the question. there are several designed for RV use that would work, but again, I don't see the need.


Well I sort of do see the point in that IF the thermostat failed or something else fused and the heating element continued to heat up pressure COULD build to a dangerous level. If a properly sized valve could be found it's cheap insurance.
A boiler heating system relief valve may be better in that they seem to run lower pressures than a hot water tank system:
30 psi valve http://www.idealtruevalue.com/servlet/the-2646/Detail
It wouldn't be that hard to put a T in the system to hook that up.
There are adjustable valves but the ones I've found so far go from 50 psi and higher.


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## chamilun (Jun 17, 2008)

i was thinking something along this line:
http://www.adventurerv.net/water-heater-temperature-and-pressure-relief-valve-p-1177.html

although I do not plan to add one in, maybe others could do so.


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## Tom W (Jun 9, 2008)

Chamilun, I want to thank you for your ideas. I just finished my heater and it works fantastic. I used a Kats 1500W heater, the relay you suggested, and a SHURflo model 100 pump. I put a TEE in the highest part of the heater hose and looped a small hose into a bottle. I hope this will work like a radiator, expanding liquid will go into the bottle and then suck it back in when it cools off - also eliminating any air bubbles. Since I just finished it this morning I don't know for sure it will work that way but I do know that I have plenty of heat. I have less than $150 in the whole setup. Thanks again,
Tom


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

chamilun said:


> i was thinking something along this line:
> http://www.adventurerv.net/water-heater-temperature-and-pressure-relief-valve-p-1177.html
> 
> although I do not plan to add one in, maybe others could do so.


That is set at 150psi, way too high I would think.


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## chamilun (Jun 17, 2008)

JRP,
i think that means tested to 150 psi, as they mention it has no gaskets (for potential leakage I would assume). Again, I have no intention of using something like that, but maybe it will send someone in the right direction. Hopefully, someone will incorporate a relief valve into their design and report back as to how it works.

Tom W,
thanks for the post.
please post back if you see much liquid going into the expansion container. My original plan used a small aftermarket expansion tank, but I decided it was not necessary. Hope your heater continues to work well.


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## Beyonder (Sep 18, 2008)

> beyonder,
> i thought of a lot of ways to respond to your posts, but ill be brief. (and yes, though maybe unfortunately for me, I have only read maybe 3 sentences of your posts.).
> do me a favor. Please go back and delete all of your posts. Every single one. Now, write a nice, concise post, and without any bs, simply say this (ill put it in quotes just to pretend that you wrote it. I promise, you will still get credit):


 Well thankyou for NOT reading them...perhaps you should lay off of the caffine or the ego trip...read them! I know what I am talking about here. They are thourough explpanations of the dangers...not to mention suggestions on how to improve the system!
I'm not looking for credit..however i DO think people should consider the safety concerns!!! I am extremely suprised that the mods on this forum have allowed this thread to go on with so many blatelently ignoring the safety and legal aspects of this system. IF this system were to be inspected when your registering the EV ( as they do here in canada ) the flaw will be pointed out and the vehicle will FAIL inspection. Now the easy fix for this is....oh..I have to say it..put a pressure relief valve or go open atmosphere with the system!! You sir have obviously NEVER worked around these types of systems and have absolutely NO clue about them. I am simply sharing my knowledge as we are all here for it. 



> I think that's a little over the top. Beyonder made his points, it's up to the individual to agree with them or not. Yes this is "your" thread, but when you put something up for public comment you might not agree with all the comments.
> 
> Re- the oil heater idea. It defeats one of the main benefits of using the pump setup, not having to tear apart the dash and mess with the heater core, a real pain in the ass in many vehicles.
> 
> As to sizing a relief valve by the proper water heater tank size, most of these systems aren't using a tank and are using less than 1 gallon in the system. No water heater that I know of uses less than 1 gallon. Also, water heater pressure valves are probably rated higher than car systems are designed for. A radiator cap is set to vent at 15 psi while house water systems regularly run at 50psi and higher. I bet a home water heater relief valve is set higher than a heater core and hoses are designed for so a lower pressure valve would be necessary.


 Thanks...for the oil heater idea..I'm unsure on exact vehicle specs but on my old ranger, plymouth acclaim, s15, etc..the heater was at most hidden with a small shroud and only held in place by the connections through the firewall, I think the longest it took my to get them out was 20 minutes. However...an oil heater could be placed simular to an aux 12v heater from your local autoparts store? 

I was under the impression this design was using a storage tank...how do you place the element in the system with no tank?
Wouldn't it be more efficient to keep the entire heating system inside the cab of the vehicle since it would have a cooling effect in the engine bay?

A rad cap is set at 15psi because the system is open atmosphere, it is able to relieve about 90% of the pressure build up through the expansion tank. If memory serves automotive hoses are good to approximatly 150PSI before they will burst. I will look for the formulas and post them on calculating pressure build up on a closed heating system. 
Another thing that could be done, is use pex instead of automotive heating hoses...pex is good for household pressures, easily worked,etc. This may make the overall system easier to install/locate with or without a pressure reliefe valve.



> over the top was entirely my point.
> 
> ego driven, dictatorial posts are not helpful to anyone. How many threads have been busted up (lifepo4, recent example) by people who want to just shoot arrows and show how brilliant they are. Its very easy to be critical. And oh yeah, the most critical posters have not even started their conversion.
> 
> ...


 Ego driven? are you on drugs? seriously...you can tell me..lol..man..read the posts. I know what I am talking about...read and you may learn something...hell if you had read it i beleive i even suggested once that you phone your local DOT or building inspector and ask them if you can remove the pressure reliefe valve for your household hot water tank...I have offered my statements and the evidence to back it up...if you HAD read the posts you would understand. Until then please stop bitching and accusing me of being ego driven!

*maybe I can explain clearly...you are recreating a HOUSEHOLD heating system! on a smaller scale! For example...goto your hardware store...look at hydronic heating systems! look at the radiators for them...usually bottom left hand corner of the unit......what do you see??? should i say it? lol...i'm going to ( since I'm ego driven apparently ) a pressure relief valve...this is the same system you are trying to recreate. I made this bold so that perhaps if you skip everything else you at least read this...*



> Well I sort of do see the point in that IF the thermostat failed or something else fused and the heating element continued to heat up pressure COULD build to a dangerous level. If a properly sized valve could be found it's cheap insurance.
> A boiler heating system relief valve may be better in that they seem to run lower pressures than a hot water tank system:
> 30 psi valve http://www.idealtruevalue.com/servlet/the-2646/Detail


 If you goto your local plumbing supply store...EMCO. wosley,etc they will be able to get you the pressure relief valve size you will need. Like i mentioned earlier, using pex would give you added protection, not to mention its cheaper than auto heating hose.


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## chamilun (Jun 17, 2008)

> This message is hidden because *Beyonder* is on your ignore list.


I finally gave myself a Christmas gift.

Hallelujah! Hallelujah!


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## Beyonder (Sep 18, 2008)

> *Re: Liquid Heater Success*
> Quote:
> This message is hidden because *Beyonder* is on your ignore list.
> I finally gave myself a Christmas gift.
> ...


 WELL Merry Christmas...dont open your present till the 25th..LMFAO...seriously you sir are extremely childish and are only making yourself look like an ass. You have yet to disprove or offer VALID arguement against what I have said. You argue with me in yet admit to not reading what I have posted....quite mature...lol.

I suggest that noone take what this person has to say seriously...he is willingto overlook safety ( in this case by either using an open atmosphere system or pressure relief valve )...this is not only his safety he is playing with but any people traveling with him in his vehicle, on the road around him and not to mention the other members here who may unfortunatly copy his system! Safety is nothing to overlook, and anyone who refuses to listen to reason is irrisponsible and should not be anywhere near the DIY area!


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Beyonder said:


> Thanks...for the oil heater idea..I'm unsure on exact vehicle specs but on my old ranger, plymouth acclaim, s15, etc..the heater was at most hidden with a small shroud and only held in place by the connections through the firewall, I think the longest it took my to get them out was 20 minutes. However...an oil heater could be placed simular to an aux 12v heater from your local autoparts store?


 I'd say you've been lucky in your heater core experiences. Many of them take quite a bit to get at.


> I was under the impression this design was using a storage tank...how do you place the element in the system with no tank?
> Wouldn't it be more efficient to keep the entire heating system inside the cab of the vehicle since it would have a cooling effect in the engine bay?


We've found that block heaters such as this are easy to plumb inline.
http://www.jcwhitney.com/autoparts/...02/Pr-p_CATENTRY_ID:100000206202#BVQAWidgetID
Again, ease of installation would have you place the heater in the engine bay and hook up to the heater core fittings. An insulation wrap would probably keep things warm enough, though you are correct that keeping everything inside the cabin would be a bit warmer.



> Another thing that could be done, is use pex instead of automotive heating hoses...pex is good for household pressures, easily worked,etc. This may make the overall system easier to install/locate with or without a pressure reliefe valve.


 Keeping with the theme, nothing is cheaper or easier than reusing your existing heater hoses if they are in decent condition.


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## Beyonder (Sep 18, 2008)

> We've found that block heaters such as this are easy to plumb inline.
> http://www.jcwhitney.com/autoparts/I...2#BVQAWidgetID
> Again, ease of installation would have you place the heater in the engine bay and hook up to the heater core fittings. An insulation wrap would probably keep things warm enough, though you are correct that keeping everything inside the cabin would be a bit warmer.


Thats a good example, however remember that is designed for an automotive open atmosphere system. close the system and you will build pressure...something i didn't see on there is how hot does this get? From what I know of block heaters they heat to only 5 -10 degrees about 0. ( these are of course the frost plug type block heaters ) Not nearly enough to provide sufficient heat in the winter into your vehicle to keep things defrosted,etc...

"have heat instantly on a 15 degree morning." 

I copied that from the site, so I assume this heater gets fairly hot? Question is, how hot? 



> Keeping with the theme, nothing is cheaper or easier than reusing your existing heater hoses if they are in decent condition.


I was speaking purely if you were buying new heater hose for this.


What about heat tape? Has anyone tried this? Only consumes about 160 watts/hr and gets fairly warm. Could by wrapped around the heater hose to make the system more efficient, it keeps water from freezing below -30 so it should do something...maybe to keep temperature up after you heating unit has initially heated the coolant.


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## Carroll_1 (Dec 18, 2007)

Chamilun,

I've got a Parmax 25psi pump and Kat's 1500 watt heater ready to assemble, but haven't finalized the underhood location yet. About how much water does your system actually hold? I'm trying to decide if I need to minimize the heater hose length for less heat loss, or if a little more hose from a more distant location (front fender/headlight well) might actually help by holding more water in the system. There can't be more than a gallon or so of water in the whole system is there?

Thanks for the info.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Beyonder said:


> What about heat tape? Has anyone tried this? Only consumes about 160 watts/hr and gets fairly warm. Could by wrapped around the heater hose to make the system more efficient, it keeps water from freezing below -30 so it should do something...maybe to keep temperature up after you heating unit has initially heated the coolant.


Don't see why you'd bother with another circuit at 160 watts when you already have one running at 1500 watts. There is no efficiency gain. Heat tapes don't get that warm anyway. Short hose runs with some insulation should be plenty.


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## Beyonder (Sep 18, 2008)

JRP3 said:


> Don't see why you'd bother with another circuit at 160 watts when you already have one running at 1500 watts. There is no efficiency gain. Heat tapes don't get that warm anyway. Short hose runs with some insulation should be plenty.


 It gets warm enough to raise the temperature from my water lines to warm to the touch from -30. And my idea was more of a heat maintenance type concept...let the heater raise the temperature and use the heat tape to maintain that temp. If you can reduce your run time of the heater 50% your saving 750 watts consumption compared to the 160 watts your using...a savings potentially of 590 watts....


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## Taztech (Dec 5, 2008)

WOW what a heated discussion (now that’s punny) 

But seriously, for my EV I am welding a small aluminum box (3" X 2" X 5") and will tap the two ends for 5/8” pipe nipples and on the side I will be taping a hole for a glow plug from a diesel engine and another hole for an electric cooling fan switch. I also bought a 12 volt electric water pump (I think it was for a BMW) my thought is to wire up a relay from the heater switch on the dash to turn on the glow plug and the water pump. I am using the cooling fan switch to control the glow plugs heating of the coolant. I may have to use two relays as the switch is closed at 200*F and opens at 180*F the opposite of what I need but using two relays will solve that. 

The glow plug will pull about 9 amps and the water pump is rated for 4 amps. So this should work with just 13 amps on the 12 volt system. And if one glow plug does not heat the coolant fast enough for me I will add a second glow plug for 22 amps.

This set up is not new as it is commonly used on diesels that run on bio-fuel to heat the fuel. I figure if it works for heating fuel why not coolant too.

Hopefully I will have it finished and bench tested some time after Christmas. (I have a ton of stuff going on until then)


Oh BTW just so you know, and so no one upset, I will be using an pressurized coolant recovery tank "T"ed in on the return side of the pump with a 15lbs cap.

Has anyone else every tried this? I would be interested in hearing how it works.


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## Beyonder (Sep 18, 2008)

Taztech said:


> WOW what a heated discussion (now that’s punny)
> 
> But seriously, for my EV I am welding a small aluminum box (3" X 2" X 5") and will tap the two ends for 5/8” pipe nipples and on the side I will be taping a hole for a glow plug from a diesel engine and another hole for an electric cooling fan switch. I also bought a 12 volt electric water pump (I think it was for a BMW) my thought is to wire up a relay from the heater switch on the dash to turn on the glow plug and the water pump. I am using the cooling fan switch to control the glow plugs heating of the coolant. I may have to use two relays as the switch is closed at 200*F and opens at 180*F the opposite of what I need but using two relays will solve that.
> 
> ...


 interesting....how hot do glow plugs get individually? I'd be interested in seeing a schematic or pics if/when you have any


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Beyonder said:


> It gets warm enough to raise the temperature from my water lines to warm to the touch from -30. And my idea was more of a heat maintenance type concept...let the heater raise the temperature and use the heat tape to maintain that temp. If you can reduce your run time of the heater 50% your saving 750 watts consumption compared to the 160 watts your using...a savings potentially of 590 watts....


No you aren't saving anything. Whatever temperature you need, you can either run the 1500 watt system for x number of seconds to get that temperature or run the 160 watt system for a greater number of seconds to achieve the same temperature, there will be no savings at all. If you want to maintain a lower heat setting just turn off the 1500 watt system sooner. The same amount of energy will be drawn from the batteries to generate the same amount of heat, only the 160 watt system won't generate enough when the fan is blowing to keep it hot enough.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Taztech said:


> The glow plug will pull about 9 amps and the water pump is rated for 4 amps. So this should work with just 13 amps on the 12 volt system. And if one glow plug does not heat the coolant fast enough for me I will add a second glow plug for 22 amps.


I wonder if that will be enough, as 12 volts x 9 amps will only give you 108 watts, even with two that's only 216 watts. Also, glow plugs are really only meant for temporary usage, I wonder how they'd hold up to long term heating use?


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## Taztech (Dec 5, 2008)

Beyonder said:


> interesting....how hot do glow plugs get individually? I'd be interested in seeing a schematic or pics if/when you have any


.
glow plugs when dry glow red hot in about 2 seconds.

Ok, here is a wiring diagram for the idea that I have. The water pump has barbs for 5/8" hose so I will just connect from the pump to the heater box, to the factory heater core, then to a tee where it splits off to the pressurized recover tank, and back to the pump. 

Sorry about the art work. It’s the best I could do with Paint brush.
Any way like I said


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## Taztech (Dec 5, 2008)

JRP3 said:


> glow plugs are really only meant for temporary usage, I wonder how they'd hold up to long term heating use?


This is true, but my thinking is because the glow plug tips will be submerged they shouldn't get too hot to burn out. much like heating elements in a hot water heater, they will burn out as well if powered up dry.

like I said before they are used in fuel heating for bio-diesel applications, so it should work. 

As far as the wattage, you might be right, it may not be enough.  but i am hoping that since we are only talking about a couple of liters of fluid it should not take too long to heat up. Add to the fact that i live in the south and we rarely see temps below freezing. i am hoping it will be OK.


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## Beyonder (Sep 18, 2008)

Interesting system...i don't see your pressurized coolant recovery tank tho  If your making the block yourself you could incorporate your 15psi cap ( which IMO will be to low...I'd suggest a 25PSI cap from a larger truck... ) into the block. 

For the power being to low...it will heat regardless...might take a while. I have a 12 Volt kettle ( one from walmart ) that plugs into the cigarette lighter. It holds 700ML of water...brings this to a boil in about 15 - 20 minutes. It has a 144 watt element in it. so 180ish temperatures are atain-able for 3/4 of a L in say 17 minutes. Capacity of your system is 0.46875L. I'm assuming your pumping to a heater core...should hold at most 2.25L of coolant ( a small one ). Total capacity of the system should be estimated at 2.75L of coolant. Given thisand since your system is 3X the size of the kettle i'd suggest :

1 Glow Plug = 67.92 minutes ( 180 Degrees )
2 Glow Plug = 33.96 Minutes
3 Glow Plug = 22.64 Minutes
4 Glow Plug = 16.98 Minutes

My math maybe a little off here...but I sure I'm fairly close.


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## Jimdear2 (Oct 12, 2008)

Taztech said:


> .
> glow plugs when dry glow red hot in about 2 seconds.
> 
> Ok, here is a wiring diagram for the idea that I have. The water pump has barbs for 5/8" hose so I will just connect from the pump to the heater box, to the factory heater core, then to a tee where it splits off to the pressurized recover tank, and back to the pump.
> ...


I think you are on the right track, but I would subsitute a 12 volt hot water heater element for the glow plug. 

http://www.hydrogenappliances.com/hotwater.html

As long as you are welding up a tank you might as well weld in a bung for one of these. The rest of your circuit should work fine as long as you size your relay to the element wattage.

Jim


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## Beyonder (Sep 18, 2008)

*NOTES HERE FOR ANYONE INTERESTED

*Pressure relief valve sizing is _pressure on outlet side of pump + 70 kN/m2

_70 kN/m2 = 10.15 PSI.

So a 25 PSI system should have a 35.15 PSI pressure relief valve.

Fluid expansion of coolant in an open expansion tank system is 4% from 7 degrees C to 100 degrees C ( Boiling Point ). Rule of thumb is this should doubled at a minimum.

Fluid expansion of coolant in a closed tank system is calculated as follows : 


_Vt = Ve pw / (pw - pi)__ (8b)_
_where_
_V__t__ = volume of expansion tank (m3)_
_V__e__ = volume by which water contents expands (m3)_
_p__w__ = absolute pressure of tank at working temperature - operating system (kN/m2)_
_pi__ = absolute pressure of cold tank at filling - non operating system (kN/m2)_



The expanding volume may be expressed as:
_Ve = Vw (ρi - ρw) / ρ__w__ (8c)_
_where_
_V__w__ = volume of water in the system (m3)_
_ρ__i__ = density of cold water at filling temperature (kg/m3)_
_ρ__w__ = density of water at working temperature (kg/m3)_


​


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Beyonder said:


> For the power being to low...it will heat regardless...might take a while. I have a 12 Volt kettle ( one from walmart ) that plugs into the cigarette lighter. It holds 700ML of water...brings this to a boil in about 15 - 20 minutes. It has a 144 watt element in it. so 180ish temperatures are atain-able for 3/4 of a L in say 17 minutes. Capacity of your system is 0.46875L. I'm assuming your pumping to a heater core...should hold at most 2.25L of coolant ( a small one ). Total capacity of the system should be estimated at 2.75L of coolant. Given thisand since your system is 3X the size of the kettle i'd suggest :
> 
> 1 Glow Plug = 67.92 minutes ( 180 Degrees )
> 2 Glow Plug = 33.96 Minutes
> ...


And you point out exactly why this is not enough wattage. How long do you want to wait for heat? If it takes 17 minutes to hit 180 with 4 glow plugs totalling 432 watts it will probably take about 10 minutes to provide usable heat in a cold vehicle, that's not fast enough by far. Any ICE I've been in takes less than half that time. Especially when there are ready made block heaters like the ones talked about in this thread. Even a 1000 watt heater would be better and can be had for around $30 and it's ready to plumb right into your system.
Why not take advantage of the capability to provide faster heat than an ICE can?


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Beyonder said:


> *NOTES HERE FOR ANYONE INTERESTED
> 
> *Pressure relief valve sizing is _pressure on outlet side of pump + 70 kN/m2
> 
> ...


To me this suggest that we need a very low pressure relief point. Until we start heating the fluid we are running a zero pressure system. If pressure is increasing 4% to boiling, double that to 8%, I'd say a 15psi radiator cap or similar sized relief valve would be plenty, definitely 25psi is enough. Which is probably why we aren't seeing problems with closed systems with no relief valve, unless something goes really wrong the pressures are so low you aren't stressing the system.


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## Beyonder (Sep 18, 2008)

JRP3 said:


> To me this suggest that we need a very low pressure relief point. Until we start heating the fluid we are running a zero pressure system. If pressure is increasing 4% to boiling, double that to 8%, I'd say a 15psi radiator cap or similar sized relief valve would be plenty, definitely 25psi is enough. Which is probably why we aren't seeing problems with closed systems with no relief valve, unless something goes really wrong the pressures are so low you aren't stressing the system.


 Good point, however like you said in case something goes really wrong. There are other variables tho, pipe sizing,etc...it depends on the pump...someone on here posted 25psi pump, add the 10 psi and you should have a 35 psi relief valve/rad cap there. it may be a 1 in a million chance that something can happen but you never know if your going to be that 1 in a million right? I think I've said all I can about the need for a pressure relief valve, the only advantage to it that i can think of is if you need to drain it fast, say if a small leak occured or a pipe split,etc for any reason whatsoever you could drain the system. I figured I'd offer the equations for anyone who wanted them


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## Beyonder (Sep 18, 2008)

JRP3 said:


> And you point out exactly why this is not enough wattage. How long do you want to wait for heat? If it takes 17 minutes to hit 180 with 4 glow plugs totalling 432 watts it will probably take about 10 minutes to provide usable heat in a cold vehicle, that's not fast enough by far. Any ICE I've been in takes less than half that time. Especially when there are ready made block heaters like the ones talked about in this thread. Even a 1000 watt heater would be better and can be had for around $30 and it's ready to plumb right into your system.
> Why not take advantage of the capability to provide faster heat than an ICE can?


 Good point, however my thaught's are along the lines of range extension...and personally I think I'd rather let it warm up 10 or 15 minutes before driving in the winter. In my case this would still be faster than an ICE...I live in Canada and in the winters where I live we warm our vehicles up for 15 - 20 minutes before we can drive them. ( I think in my case I'd wire the heater to a remote if i were to go the lower wattage route ) However you do have a very good point. But I thought the one you posted before was around 130.00? I could be wrong...lol. 

1000 watt heater should reach operating temp around 7 minutes. I wonder however if you were to put in a thermostat from a ICE to reduce the amount of water being heated at first. I wonder if this would decrease the wait time simular to when you add hot water to a cold bath tub, you know how fast it warms it up compared to trying to heat up the whole tub at once? Would make any heater system more efficient possibly?


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Beyonder said:


> someone on here posted 25psi pump


Yes, which is really overkill for this setup as circulation is required, not pressure, and since it's a loop system there should be almost no pressure build up.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Beyonder said:


> But I thought the one you posted before was around 130.00? I could be wrong...lol.


The Kats 1500 watt is around $35, less for smaller ones. http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000BQUUR6
The Zerostart was around $60 I think. I'd go with the Kats 


> I wonder however if you were to put in a thermostat from a ICE to reduce the amount of water being heated at first. I wonder if this would decrease the wait time simular to when you add hot water to a cold bath tub, you know how fast it warms it up compared to trying to heat up the whole tub at once? Would make any heater system more efficient possibly?


I don't see how. x wattage = x amount of heat for x amount of liquid. If you preheat a smaller amount of liquid then dump it into a larger amount there is no magic to gain extra heat from that equation. People have been reporting much faster heating than 7 minutes. Remember you don't need to get to boiling to have usable heat.


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## chamilun (Jun 17, 2008)

the circulation is 1.1 gpm. the antifreeze mixture does not boil using the 1500W heater. You won't need _*google searched knowledge*_ to find that out. My emails all indicate success using this simple model, and surprise at the posters in this thread. Please create a new thread if needed.

the biofuel guys have some great writeups about how they heat certain stages of liquid to create biodiesel. Some may find inspiration there by doing a google search.


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## JSRacer (Jun 22, 2008)

We've decided to "open" our system now. We'll just have a overfill tank. It will be very small but open at the top to relieve any pressure. Basically it will be used as a place to dump in and draw out the mixture. In doing so we'll relieve any pressure and do away with air in the system completely.

Our first tests in a 5 gallon bucket is what is making us lean back towards this open system. It runs so smooth and the pressure issue is gone completely.

We'll also be adding a relay that Chamilun linked earlier in the thread. I think this will be safer than a 2 rocker switch setup we had in mind. 

We'll be working on this for the next couple weeks and I'll report back. We only get a day or 2 a week to work together on this EV project so it's slow goin'.

Analyzing and theorizing ways to heat a vehicle are great and that's what these forums are for and I'm glad they're here. There's been an abundance of info thrown out in this thread and it seems very few are proving any of it by making a viable prototype or example. I hope this thread continues so that we can see if some of these ideas can create a safe and efficient heater that is easy to install and that we can all use.


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## Beyonder (Sep 18, 2008)

JRP3 said:


> Yes, which is really overkill for this setup as circulation is required, not pressure, and since it's a loop system there should be almost no pressure build up.


with circulation you have pressure...you have pressure without circulation. The faster the circulation, the higher the pressure,etc...



> I don't see how. x wattage = x amount of heat for x amount of liquid. If you preheat a smaller amount of liquid then dump it into a larger amount there is no magic to gain extra heat from that equation. People have been reporting much faster heating than 7 minutes. Remember you don't need to get to boiling to have usable heat.


 I didn't consider the math of it..I compared it to a bath tub, it take much less hot water to reheat a tub that to initially heat it. The heater would heat a smaller amount of coolant much faster...as that superheated ( if you will ) coolant is introduced when the tstat opened it would heat the core itself faster. This may not be of any advantage in a warmer climate, but remember I am considering -30 to -50 temperatures in the winter...and since this would cost nothing since the part would be recycled from the ICE of the donor vehicle I thaught it was worth exploring.

Your right, however we were working with a 180 degree concept i thought? You would have usable temperature around 10 degree's...I would imagine ideally you would see this temp at about 10 - 15 seconds.



> the circulation is 1.1 gpm


 What pump are you using? I have my doubts about flow being only 1.1 GPM unless your using a custom built pump...ICE electric cooling pumps pump around 10GPM or so they're advertised. 1 1/16HP motor at 500 rpm pumps around 6 GPM @ 50PSI in a 3/4" line. I would suppose it would be possible to reduce this with gearing...



> There's been an abundance of info thrown out in this thread and it seems very few are proving any of it by making a viable prototype or example. I hope this thread continues so that we can see if some of these ideas can create a safe and efficient heater that is easy to install and that we can all use.


 Glad to hear it done safely..do you have pics of your system?


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Beyonder said:


> with circulation you have pressure...you have pressure without circulation. The faster the circulation, the higher the pressure,etc...


 OK, zero pressure is not accurate, but very low pressure is. I don't know the numbers but high pressure is just not necessary in this system. All that is needed is to circulate water through the loop.


> I didn't consider the math of it..I compared it to a bath tub, it take much less hot water to reheat a tub that to initially heat it. The heater would heat a smaller amount of coolant much faster...as that superheated ( if you will ) coolant is introduced when the tstat opened it would heat the core itself faster. This may not be of any advantage in a warmer climate, but remember I am considering -30 to -50 temperatures in the winter...and since this would cost nothing since the part would be recycled from the ICE of the donor vehicle I thaught it was worth exploring.


 I'm not sure what you are talking about with the bathtub but I suspect it reheats faster because it's not actually as cold the second time around. Regardless, even if you don't do the math energy in = heat out. Heating a small amount of water faster and then dumping it into a larger amount of water won't do anything for you. You've got this idea in your head but I assure you it's wrong. The physics of it don't work out.


> Your right, however we were working with a 180 degree concept i thought?


 No you made that assumption. We are working with getting warm fluid to produce heat. As soon as it's above ambient temperature it's producing heat. Obviously the warmer the better up to a point. Just like in you ICE you don't have to hit full temperature before it starts putting out heat. If it's 0F degrees out warming it only 30 more won't defrost your windshield so it has to get hotter. 


> What pump are you using?


 It has been mentioned a number of times, he's using a Parmax. Look at his pictures.


> I have my doubts about flow being only 1.1 GPM unless your using a custom built pump...ICE electric cooling pumps pump around 10GPM or so they're advertised. 1 1/16HP motor at 500 rpm pumps around 6 GPM @ 50PSI in a 3/4" line. I would suppose it would be possible to reduce this with gearing...


 It's not an electric cooling pump, it's probably a boat/RV water system pump.
Something like this: http://store.solar-electric.com/100-00-21.html
or this: http://www.marineengine.com/products/accessory.php?in=2214900


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Take note of the pressures and GPM of the Surflo pump. .7 GPM at 5 PSI, .3 GPM at 10 PSI. Low flow, low pressure, just about perfect for this setup.


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## Beyonder (Sep 18, 2008)

JPR3 :
Ok...I have conseaded in several positions and I think we are getting caught up in a pointless argument. I look it up, I am right with the bathtub analogy.. it will heat faster due to the metal construction of the ehater core. It however will only heat about 5% faster than using a pump. This is due to convection currents, they move through water faster than heat can when pumped...this is due to the heat loss's from the movement of the water. 
As for 30 degree's, yes in fact it will heat defrost you windshield...I think you forgot to take into consideration the temperature difference between outside and inside of the vehicle...in "MY" case this is to be 50 degree's....even cold are will defrost your windshield...or rather i should say air movement will. 

There have been several pumps mentioned here...2 or 3 by yourself...A RV pump pumps to a pressure of 35 - 55 PSI ( I went and looked at the water pump ). As for your pump you just listed a 15PSI releif valve or rad cap will work fine. That pump was not mentioned earlier...and incidently...everything being discussed until now was "180 degrees" reread the posts..and the system mentioned earlier had a 25PSI output from the pump...add 10psi for expansion and you need a 35 PSI relief valve/rad cap setup.

Now I have tried to get away from the pressure relief valve pushing...since I believe I've made my point on it and tried to offer suggestions on how to improve and make this system more efficient.

Now that I have said that....all pumps are the same...the material used in the physical pump part is what determines whether it is good for hot/cold. I apoligize for the term "coolant" however this is technically correct. the amount of pressure,etc is determined by the sizing of the motor. The more powerful the motor, the higher the GPM and pressure...to fast and it'll cool, to slow and its pointless to have the pump. Something not mentioned here is you need to control the pressure with compressed air in a closed system...


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## Beyonder (Sep 18, 2008)

*  ***WARNING...LONG POST...LOL****
Something I don't think that is being considered here is the draw on battery bank. Voltage drops,etc...

This is a 12 volt pump you are talking right? and a 12 volt heater? reason i ask this is because there were questions earlier about running 110 heaters,etc. 
The advantages to using the 1500 watt heater are obviously faster heat, however has anyone considered the batteries? That is a lot to pull and will drastically reduce your mileage of your EV...electric elements pull 2 - 3 X as much power when firing up. How has the 3 - 4.5 KW pull from the battery bank been offset? @12V this is 250 - 375 amps. 25 - 37 amps @ 120V...the point I am making is although a 1500 watt element may be nice, it is going to hurt range of your vehicle. Keeping it separate cant be an option...use a deep cycle battery with 100AH, you need 4...you could a deep cycle/starter battery...they hold around 10KW reserve of useful power...now the other problem however..voltage drop...use a 12v source on 1 battery and your voltage is going to drop 1.5 volts...
Now in case someone wishes to argue with this...consider this...the heater pulls say 4.5 KW ( 3x its rated power) for a minute each time it starts up...4.5kw/60 = add 75 watts per hour to your consumption calculations.

My point in this is we need a more efficient system since were trying to extendthe range of these vehicles any way we can..right?


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## Tom W (Jun 9, 2008)

My 1500W heater (110V A/C) is wired to 22 6V batteries ( I omitted 2) I used it for about 5 minutes this morning and it was warm enough that I turned it off. The volt meter barely drops enough to notice when the heater is operating. At the end of my 30 mile commute the voltage was 144V, the same as usual. Obviously the range will decrease with heater use but I doubt that continous heater use for 30 minutes would be equivalent to more than 5 miles. I don't know the formulas to figure this out ( but I am sure someone will) but I am warm and happy and couldn't care less.
Tom


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## Beyonder (Sep 18, 2008)

Tom W said:


> My 1500W heater (110V A/C) is wired to 22 6V batteries ( I omitted 2) I used it for about 5 minutes this morning and it was warm enough that I turned it off. The volt meter barely drops enough to notice when the heater is operating. At the end of my 30 mile commute the voltage was 144V, the same as usual. Obviously the range will decrease with heater use but I doubt that continous heater use for 30 minutes would be equivalent to more than 5 miles. I don't know the formulas to figure this out ( but I am sure someone will) but I am warm and happy and couldn't care less.
> Tom


 5 miles is 5 miles tho...lol. I know...its a little petty, but every mile counts. In a case like mine I would be looking at a 80% duty cycle for the heater due to the extreme cold temperatures. I would think that my case would probably most more of a worst case scenerio for most members on here...30 min would be about 4 miles depending on the vehicle. 
You only consumed about 200 watts, thats why there was no noticable drop. ( it would only happen for a second or so ) and realistically should be about .2 voltage drop for your usage. Not sure if you wanted to know that..lol, but there it is


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Beyonder said:


> JPR3 :
> Ok...I have conseaded in several positions and I think we are getting caught up in a pointless argument. I look it up, I am right with the bathtub analogy.. it will heat faster due to the metal construction of the ehater core. It however will only heat about 5% faster than using a pump. This is due to convection currents, they move through water faster than heat can when pumped...this is due to the heat loss's from the movement of the water.


Yes it is a pointless argument. 5% is basically meaningless. 


> As for 30 degree's, yes in fact it will heat defrost you windshield...I think you forgot to take into consideration the temperature difference between outside and inside of the vehicle...in "MY" case this is to be 50 degree's....even cold are will defrost your windshield...or rather i should say air movement will.


 It won't melt ice on the outside of the windshield, which is often part of defrosting.


> There have been several pumps mentioned here...2 or 3 by yourself...A RV pump pumps to a pressure of 35 - 55 PSI ( I went and looked at the water pump ).


It won't pump to that pressure if there is little or no restriction. Open all your faucets at home and watch your pressure gauge. Unless you have a huge pump it won't hit the shut off pressure of 50psi until you close off the faucets. Same with this setup, it's a loop system. The only restriction is from the heater core and friction from the hoses. 


> As for your pump you just listed a 15PSI releif valve or rad cap will work fine. That pump was not mentioned earlier


 Yes it was, I got if from another poster in this thread


> ...and incidently...everything being discussed until now was "180 degrees" reread the posts


 Show me one response, before yours, that mentions 180 degrees.


> ..and the system mentioned earlier had a 25PSI output from the pump...add 10psi for expansion and you need a 35 PSI relief valve/rad cap setup.


Yes, we know, you've made that point, but apparently missed where I said that a 25psi pump is really putting out more pressure than needed for this system.

I begin to feel Chamilun's frustration. You made a good point about using a relief valve, but you've also gone on with rather pointless arguments. You're talking about using 12 volt heaters when the Zerostart and the Katz are 120 volt. Then there was the whole bathtub thing which just didn't make sense. 
So just to be clear, the setup I would recommend is the Katz heater, whatever wattage you wish though I'd use the highest since you can always turn it off if it's more than you need, the Sureflo 100 pump, and a relief valve around 15-25 psi. Simple, effective, fairly cheap, proven to work.


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## Tom W (Jun 9, 2008)

Question about pumps. I used the Sureflo 100 and it seems to work fine but a little noisy. Has anyone tried an electric fuel pump? Do you think antifreeze would hurt it?
Tom


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## Beyonder (Sep 18, 2008)

> Question about pumps. I used the Sureflo 100 and it seems to work fine but a little noisy. Has anyone tried an electric fuel pump? Do you think antifreeze would hurt it?
> Tom


 You'll probably find that the fuel pump would be noisier if you use an intank pump. 

JRP3 :
I'm not going to quote you because I dont have the time...well power reserve actually...lol.

- Bathtub analogy is straight out of your basic heating design books. Goto the library, you will see it.
- Your frustration is showing...take a breath and read..seriously there's no point in getting frustrated...lol. For example your open the faucets...that creates an "open atmosphere" system...the pressure is relieved because the water can expand freely. In a closed system the pump and the expansion of the molecules in the water as it heats. *As for pointless...sorry for the caps but this is apparently necessary : GOTO ANY HEATING COMPANY...ANY COMANY THAT DESIGNS THESE...HELL GOTO YOUR HARDWARE STORE AND ASK THEM THERE....ASK A PLUMBER...THERE IS A REASON ALL OF THESE SYSTEMS HAVE SAFETY DEVICES. TO TELL PEOPLE TO DO ANYTHING THAT IS "POTENTIALLY" UNSAFE IS ILLEGAL! NOT TO MENTION INSPECTION WHEN YOU REGISTER YOUR VEHICLE...IS IT WORTH RIPPING APART YOUR DASH! *

As for frustration with Chamilun, him and I have a long history of argueing on several other forums...

Your entire post is pointless...unless you want to argue...NOONE here has yet to show or offer ANY place to verify that a pressure relief valve or any of what I have suggested is NOT needed. 

Now,...I will look for the post that says 180 degrees....and show you...( incidently..if this was not the case why did you not mention it earlier? unless your looking for a reason to argue? In that case I'm not interested sorry...)
Dont take offence...keep an open mind


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## Beyonder (Sep 18, 2008)

****PLEASE NOT THE MENTION TO 180*F***

*


Taztech said:


> WOW what a heated discussion (now that’s punny)
> 
> But seriously, for my EV I am welding a small aluminum box (3" X 2" X 5") and will tap the two ends for 5/8” pipe nipples and on the side I will be taping a hole for a glow plug from a diesel engine and another hole for an electric cooling fan switch. I also bought a 12 volt electric water pump (I think it was for a BMW) my thought is to wire up a relay from the heater switch on the dash to turn on the glow plug and the water pump. I am using the cooling fan switch to control the glow plugs heating of the coolant. I may have to use two relays as the switch is closed at 200*F and opens at 180*F the opposite of what I need but using two relays will solve that.
> 
> ...


Now can we please get back to "discussion" and stop "Arguing"?


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## Beyonder (Sep 18, 2008)

> Pieces needed:
> 1500W (or 1000W if in a very mild climate) tank circulation heater (i used kats 13120).
> flojet style rv water pump 12 V similar to Parmax 1 (many different styles)
> heater hose to match your vehicle (mine is 5/8")
> ...


 All this pointless arguing and hes using a *"flojet style rv water pump 12 V similar to Parmax 1" *RV style pumps run from 35 -50ish PSI....and why use high pressure line if its not needed? Note that that is called PEX.... Oh and no T-Stat....human switch...you telling me that noone will forget to shut off the switch? Human error....cmon, give me a break....no tstat = super heated liquid = BIG BIG BOOM...i cant believe I never pointed that out before... pointless arguing my bloody ass...ya I'm pissed....I don't even know what to say....maybe you and everyone who considers copying this death trap should talk to a plumber or someone who deals in heating systems...it'll be faster for them to say what I've already posted on here....

Edit : Oh and someone should probably tell him to use proper clamps...those wont last. They have special clamps fior his "high pressure hose"...


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Beyonder said:


> For example your open the faucets...that creates an "open atmosphere" system...the pressure is relieved because the water can expand freely. In a closed system the pump and the expansion of the molecules in the water as it heats.


I never said there was no pressure increase and I wasn't talking about the heating expansion. I said the 25-35psi pumps will never create that much pressure in a loop system. Pressure builds up when flow is restricted or stopped. There isn't much restriction in these systems. As one person mentioned his 35 PSI pump never shuts off because it never reaches that pressure.


> *As for pointless...sorry for the caps but this is apparently necessary : GOTO ANY HEATING COMPANY...ANY COMANY THAT DESIGNS THESE...HELL GOTO YOUR HARDWARE STORE AND ASK THEM THERE....ASK A PLUMBER...THERE IS A REASON ALL OF THESE SYSTEMS HAVE SAFETY DEVICES. TO TELL PEOPLE TO DO ANYTHING THAT IS "POTENTIALLY" UNSAFE IS ILLEGAL! NOT TO MENTION INSPECTION WHEN YOU REGISTER YOUR VEHICLE...IS IT WORTH RIPPING APART YOUR DASH! *


 Since you enjoy bold caps *I'M NOT SAYING YOU DON'T NEED A PRESSURE VALVE, WE'VE BEEN OVER THIS AD NAUSEUM!!! ALL I'M SAYING IS WITH A LOW PRESSURE PUMP THE PRESSURE WON'T BE THAT HIGH!!
*


> As for frustration with Chamilun, him and I have a long history of argueing on several other forums...


 Why doesn't that surprise me?


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Beyonder said:


> ****PLEASE NOT THE MENTION TO 180*F***
> 
> *
> 
> Now can we please get back to "discussion" and stop "Arguing"?


Ok, yes ONE of the many different systems we are discussing mentioned 180 degrees. You do realize we are talking about different systems here, and that is the only one that has given a specific temperature value? Since they are all different we can't assume they all operate at the same temperature.


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## JSRacer (Jun 22, 2008)

I'm a Pipefitter of 11 years and my dad is a retired Plumber of 40 years and neither one of us is one bit worried that someone will be killed with this system. If this thing blows, God forbid, it will simply relieve pressure at some point in the system making one heck of a mess. If it's the heater core that gives you may give a scare but I really really doubt anyone gets killed, much less even hurt. 160 degrees F is hot but does not cause high power explosions. This system cannot build any Earth shattering pressure with rubber hoses. 

I don't know who mentioned it first but simply opening the system would take care of most any concerns.

Another precaution would be not to run the block heater without the pump running. 

Our system will be open and we'll never be able to run the heater if the pump isn't on. Also, we'll have the option (and will use it frequently) to shut off the heater and let the pump circulate. 

This is a great idea and I give Chamilun kudos for bringing this subject to the forum. 

I understand safety concerns, I really do! But the last couple pages of this thread have been over-the-top dramatic! I've built this system. We've tested this system. Please realize that without the hands on test, theories are only still up in the air. You can say what you "think" will happen until you're blue in the face, but the reality is, there's no substitute for a pracitical hands on study. 

I'd hate to see this thread get shut down because of arguing. Hopefully with some slow, long, deep breaths we can all get back to a calm practical discussion.  

I'll report back with the "real deal" in a week or two.


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## Beyonder (Sep 18, 2008)

Good advice...however between a fitter and a turd hurder lol ( I work in the field myself...lol ) you should see a need for a relief valve? Even if it does blow a line there is still the danger of a short in the system which can possibly lead to fatal voltage/current...this was my main concern.

I think however we have already answered the safety issues....I think we should be "disscussing" how to improve the system.

Saying that...how much do 22 6volt batteries weigh?

What are your thaughts on replacing the antifreeze/water mixture with straight glycol?


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## Tom W (Jun 9, 2008)

My 6V batteries weigh 73lbs each. I have 24 but only 22 power the heater. All 24 power the motor. I think reducing the voltage a little might prolong the heater life. It was easy to cut out 2 batteries because they are in front and 22 are in the rear.


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## JSRacer (Jun 22, 2008)

In a closed system such as Chamilun's original system, I can see how one may find a relief valve necessary. How ever I do not. Only because, once again, we've physically tested the system. It will run ALL DAY LONG without pressure problems, period.

However, to aleviate any concerns we've decided to open the system. This completely eliminates any need or use for a pressure relief valve. An open system is smooth as butter. Yes, we will have more heat loss. But this perhaps is the price you may pay for peace of mind.

Beyonder, what field or trade are you in? Always nice to know where a guy is coming from with his mechanical background. My background is mostly food process and ammonia refrigeration. Oh, and I won't tell the old man about the "turdherder" comment. I'm sure he's heard that enough over the years.  We often joke to each other that even a Pipefitter and Plumber can build an electric car. 

Also Beyonder, why a 100% glycol system? We do not plan to run our EV below freezing. And we'll never let it set for a long period of time in the cold. Other than preventing a freeze at extreme temperatures is there any advantage to straight glycol. It's heavier than water correct?


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## Beyonder (Sep 18, 2008)

> I never said there was no pressure increase and I wasn't talking about the heating expansion. I said the 25-35psi pumps will never create that much pressure in a loop system. Pressure builds up when flow is restricted or stopped. There isn't much restriction in these systems. As one person mentioned his 35 PSI pump never shuts off because it never reaches that pressure.


 I never saw that post? might have skipped it..i dunno. i do like caps  lol.... I thought we were done arguing about the need for a relief valve? I don't even know what it is were arguing...we'll have to agree to dissagree with whatever it is 



> In a closed system such as Chamilun's original system, I can see how one may find a relief valve necessary. How ever I do not. Only because, once again, we've physically tested the system. It will run ALL DAY LONG without pressure problems, period.


 Personal preference I'd say...for me..when I build mine it'll have a relief valve...



> Also Beyonder, why a 100% glycol system? We do not plan to run our EV below freezing. And we'll never let it set for a long period of time in the cold. Other than preventing a freeze at extreme temperatures is there any advantage to straight glycol. It's heavier than water correct?


 Was more curious as to your thaughts. I'll be running mine in extreme conditions...-50ish at some points. 



> Beyonder, what field or trade are you in? Always nice to know where a guy is coming from with his mechanical background. My background is mostly food process and ammonia refrigeration. Oh, and I won't tell the old man about the "turdherder" comment. I'm sure he's heard that enough over the years.  We often joke to each other that even a Pipefitter and Plumber can build an electric car.


 Becoming a turdherder was my dream job as a kid...LOL. My dads a tin basher so I grew up in a sheet metal shop. I've been working the alternative heating field and automotive engineering the last little while...cant really get much into it tho


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## DVR (Apr 10, 2008)

Hi Guy's, I've been dormant for a while and only just caught this thread

WOW , Chamilun WELL done Mate!!! This is exactly what I saw in my head when I first brought this up in my post, but never got around to testing. Glad to see it proven by both you AND Telnetmanta as not only viable, but, *very* workable as well as being easier than pulling out a heater core in a modern car.


On the much debated issue of pressurization, why "some" of you insist on over complicating something that is very simple is beyond me. 

We are trying to simulate an ICE's supply of coolant to the heater core. That's all. Has a heater core EVER blown up and taken a life? at worst they split and spray a bit of steam through the vents (happened to me once)
BUT why the hell do you want to seal the system for anyway??? The only reason that an ice's system is pressurized it to raise the boiling point, because once coolant becomes steam it looses it's ability to remove heat from the ICE (bad for the ICE).

Just put a vent in the filler cap and let the excess coolant bleed off (un regulated) into a separate reservoir and let that reservior breath to atmosphere. Don't seal anything.

If these systems are properly set up with some sort of thermostat control they should never get near boiling point anyway. But, if it should boil, there is no harm done provided it's *not* sealed and action is taken to remedy the problem before it boils dry. For this reason I had planned set my thermosat to 70 - 80degC, to use the vehicles temp gauge to monitor the heater temp and have an over temp warning light. There is absolutly NO NEED to heat the coolant any higher. You can go higher if you want but you don't really need to.

As far as clamps go, If heater hose clamps are good enough on an ICE's system that can occasionally boil in a sealed system then they will do fine with these unsealed systems. 

For god's sake, take a step back and calm down and THINK about it!!!!. 

This started out as a brilliant thread and all the good info is threatening to get lost in the REPEATING rhetoric.

anyway that's my bit
Once again, Well done CHAMILUN.
Do keep us upto date with your progress


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## ww321q (Mar 28, 2008)

You could use the cars original coolant recovery tank and radiator cap . If it went over 15 psi (or whatever pressure cap you use) it would relieve to the tank and after cooling off would be sucked back in . J.W.


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## chamilun (Jun 17, 2008)

dvr,
thanks for the post. (you too racer)


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## chamilun (Jun 17, 2008)

now that made my morning!


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## TelnetManta (Jun 5, 2008)

DVR,

Thanks for that little tidbit of credit..... 

I've been using my system for a few months now, no problems. I'm just watching the debate here to see where it ends at this point.



Ben






DVR said:


> Hi Guy's, I've been dormant for a while and only just caught this thread
> 
> WOW , Chamilun WELL done Mate!!! This is exactly what I saw in my head when I first brought this up in my post, but never got around to testing. Glad to see it proven by both you AND Telnetmanta as not only viable, but, *very* workable as well as being easier than pulling out a heater core in a modern car.


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## Tom W (Jun 9, 2008)

Here's some data on performance of my heater. I started with my truck in the garage which was about 55 degrees F. The outside temp was 35. The heater was putting out heat in 2 - 3 minutes and reached 98 to 100 degrees in 5 minutes. This was driving at 35 - 45 mph with the fan on high and the air on the top vents. I turned the selector to max A/C to recirculate the air and the temp rose a couple of degrees to just over 100.
I have an open system with a 20 oz soda bottle as an over flow. The fluid is a weak antifreeze. ( Water with about a pint of whatever was in the original ICE) The fluid in the bottle increases about 1/2" but does not even get warm indicating there is not much heat loss there. I originally got air bubbles but this has stopped. I think all the air is out of the system.
This system is more than adequate for these conditions. I don't know about longevity or how much it affects range. 
Thanks again Chamilun for the idea.
Tom


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## Beyonder (Sep 18, 2008)

chamilun said:


> now that made my morning!


 LOL..this is absolutely hillarious....

Ok, back to improvement idea's right? Has anyone here considered casting an aluminum shroud that would fit overtop of there EM with a coil in it to catch the heat? These motors are around 90% efficient right? Saying that you'd have 10% heat loss... I'm not saying to do away with the heater in your system, I'm suggesting that by preheating the coolant with your heater, then using the excess heat from the electric motor to maintain that temp. Anyones thaughts? My thaughts being along the lines of a 20 HP motor = 1500 watts waste heat ( same output approx as the 1500 watt heater suggested in your system )


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## chamilun (Jun 17, 2008)

pics, however helpful, are now linked in the first post.

wiki should be up soon


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## DVR (Apr 10, 2008)

JSRACER. Saw the vids. Looks like a nice clean install. Is that a tap on the clear hose thats up high?The pump sounds noisy!! Is that the camera magnifying the noise or is it that loud? It would be good to have some kind of commentary with it tho just to make it clear what we are looking at. Something along the lines of "there's the Xname pump and this is the heater element" etc.
Thanks for sharing man


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## rbgrn (Jul 24, 2007)

Alright guys, this is no longer constructive. If you two want to PM/IM each other to resolve this, that's fine but for now I'm going to lock this thread and delete posts that are not "family friendly".

Update - I've unlocked it so that we can wrap the technical stuff up but we will not tolerate any name calling, flaming or obviously rude and bullish behavior. Keep the arguments private, please. Last warning. If this continues I'm deleting the whole thread.


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## grayballs (Aug 27, 2008)

I hate to see this thread die,, I've gained a lot of good info here. One of the projects, in my shop is a liquid cooled heat sink/motor mount. From this I've received an idea of where to put the heat on the cool days, and I think we'll modify the heater box with the ability to vent to the outside when we don't need the heat.


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## chamilun (Jun 17, 2008)

GB,
unfortunately, the thread needed to die. its unfortunate a moderator didnt step in sooner but oh well.

Please consider starting a new thread if you believe you have an interesting idea to maybe get some feedback on.


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## JSRacer (Jun 22, 2008)

Chamilun, there's no reason why this thread has to die!  I'll have an update to this thread very shortly. I've installed this system and we'll be on the road in a week or two. So if you don't mind, I'd like to report back with some results.


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## chamilun (Jun 17, 2008)

by all means, post away. It was only 'my' thread when the moderators were failing to do their job (no offense to the moderators, but they stepped in way too late, unfortunately)

I look forward to hearing what youre putting together. Nice get on the interstate batteries!


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## Telco (Jun 28, 2008)

Know I'm late to the party, but I like reading about HVAC options. Anyhoo, seems to me like Beyonder, although wordy and obnoxious about it, is making an excellent point. It wouldn't hurt to include a pressure relief valve. Safety equipment is like insurance, it's better to have it and never need it than to need it and not have it.

Since Chamilun is using an automotive heater core, I'd suggest including a valve gauged to the automotive system. For that, I'd install this little piece in the heater hose at its highest point. If the pipe size on this one is wrong, there's a whole range of fillers on this link. 










As you can see in the pic, this filler will use a regular automotive radiator cap, and has an overflow provision to allow a reservoir to be used. You can either try to use whatever cap CSR sells, or take the valve to the local parts store and have them find one to fit. If it takes a smaller than standard radiator cap, likely one of the older Jap caps will work as some of them are pretty small. A window washer reservoir will work great in addition to this piece, and will allow a controlled boilover if the system goes over 15 pounds. I've seen the results of coolant burns and they ain't pretty. 

Also, by putting one of these at the highest point on the system, it will make it a lot easier to purge the system to get all air out of it. A pressurized cooling system will work a lot better if all the air is gotten out, and will be far more efficient as a water heater trying to heat air will just be wasting power and may actually burn out if it goes dry. In other words, a topped up system will take less voltage to run than one with air bubbles will.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

That's a nice piece but a $25 boiler valve will do pretty much the same thing and comes with pipe threads:
http://www.idealtruevalue.com/servlet/the-2646/Detail
I don't think 30 psi is too high and you might be able to find lower.


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## DVR (Apr 10, 2008)

Good post Telco.
I agree totally. 
JRP3 the boiler valve that you suggest would work ok to let exess coolant out and therefore take care of the saftey issues but it wont let coolant back in once the system cools, they are solid brass and quite heavy for their size and they don't give you a filling point so you still need some sort of cap at the high point.

The inline ones that Telco suggests are an elegant way of achieving both goals.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Good points.


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## Telco (Jun 28, 2008)

The one I posted is also a higher dollar performance piece. I'm sure that a cheaper version can be found. I'd imagine that an older small Japanese 4cyl car that has the hidden radiator with the filler in the hose could also be found in the salvage yard for a buck or two. The parts store might also have a no-name available too. I'm pretty sure the Chevy LT1 engines from the mid-90s have this sort of filler on them as they are reverse coolant flow engines and it's almost impossible to burp the systems without a hose tap.


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## M172688 (Dec 24, 2008)

Could these heaters be used with a 312 volt batery pack?

When wiring the heater to DC do you just remove the 100 volt AC cord and wire the DC into the same connectors?


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

With that much voltage you can't just hook up a 120 volt AC heater and expect it to work. You could split the pack and hook up two units, one to each half of the pack for lots of heat, or you could get by with smaller output units, like 800 watts each. You'd still need a DC rated contactor to switch them on and off. You might be able to do something with a 240 volt water heater element but I'm not sure.


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## sailfish11 (Sep 15, 2007)

M172688 said:


> Could these heaters be used with a 312 volt batery pack?
> 
> When wiring the heater to DC do you just remove the 100 volt AC cord and wire the DC into the same connectors?


I've got the same problem. You can find higher voltage elements, but nothing quite all the way to 312V. Since a ceramic elements' resistance increases exponentially with voltage, it should (theoretically) be ok to run a 280V element on 312V -- you'll get a little higher than rated wattage -- but it should be ok. Note, that I am just repeating what I've heard; I am NOT an electrician or EE.

In any case, that's what I plan to do: get one of the 280V elements and run it on my 312V pack.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

I assume he's talking about a liquid heater not ceramic, since this thread is about liquid heaters.


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## engineer_Bill (Jun 24, 2008)

Heater elements are generally fairly tolerant of voltage changes, if you have good overtemp protection it will just cycle more often. If you are going more than 20-30% overvoltage consider using a proportional controller, Insure all safety components are rated for the highest voltage used.


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## sailfish11 (Sep 15, 2007)

Right, sorry -- I forgot it's not always about me! 

Although finding high-voltage EV components seems to be a growing problem. As battery prices come down, we're seeing more high-voltage systems. There seems to be a lag with the EV vendors in meeting that demand.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

If you're looking for high voltage stuff you can always go to http://www.metricmind.com but his prices are not cheap.


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## sailfish11 (Sep 15, 2007)

That's true -- Victor has some good stuff on his site. However, as you pointed out, his quality is not cheap. EV-source has some high-voltage stuff also, as does CanEV, but their product lines get thin as you go up in voltage.

But I don't mean to hijack the thread, so I'll leave this discussion for another time.


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## chamilun (Jun 17, 2008)

a guy building a 911 made me recall this thread. hate to bump it but Im curious as to those currently building EVs, what is the go-to method for heat now?


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## dougingraham (Jul 26, 2011)

About the same as in 2009. Heat water and circulate it through the original heater core with a pump or replace the heater core with ceramic elements.

The ceramic elements are cheap, simple and take no space used for other things but can be fiddly to wire up. With the water heating systems you have the downsides of having water and pumps and control systems.

I have been thinking of peltier cooling/heating for a while now and I think it would be a good solution but not necessarily for a conversion. It would really need to be integrated into the car. If people didn't have accidents the peltier devices could be attached to the inside skin of the outer body panels and you would put fins on the inside and duct air through the fins. In the summer it would move the heat to the outer skin of the car and in the winter the other direction. Airflow over the outside of the car would move the heat in or away from the car depending on what you want. Since an accident would do lots more damage when it destroyed the heating and cooling system my next idea is a tube within a tube with one side of the peltier devices connected to heat sinks in the center of the inner tube and the other side connected to heat sinks in the outer tube. Outside air flows through the outer tube and inside air in the inner tube. Direction of current flow determines cooling or heating. I need to mock up one of these and see how well it can be made to work.


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## chamilun (Jun 17, 2008)

you could use a peltier system to heat or cool the seats, but I think would be difficult to heat or cool the car per se.

be interesting to see a model tho!


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## jaspersk (Jun 26, 2008)

I know this is an old thread but I recently installed this system and want to share a few experiences.

First, a tip. The Prius has really nice 12V pump for circulating coolant through the heater core when the engine is not running. I did not want a loud RV pump so I bought one for $45 on ebay. It is silent and works great. 

My experiences
I wanted to go closed system because I didn't want to screw around installing another reservoir. I was worried about getting air out of the system since the Prius pump is not self priming. I made a mistake and bought clear tubing. The Watts clear tubing says it is rated for 185 deg F which theoretically should have worked but it actually gets really pliable when it heats up and the connections leaked. I upgraded that to Dayco Insulone hose. That worked nice but it seems that despite my best efforts I can't get all the air out so the pump gets airbound. I am going to have to go to an open system. 

As far as heat, it is not as good as a normal car. However, I had a normal ceramic heater on the air intake. When both ceramic heater on the input and the liquid heater is running (~30 amps at 144V), the air is as hot as a normal ICE car. I now switch the ceramic on/off depending on how hot I want it. For me the ceramic just didn't put out much heat on its own so I added this liquid heater. The liquid heater is far better than ceramic alone but together they are just what I need on a day below 10 deg F. (Cincinnati, OH).


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## mons2b (Nov 17, 2015)

what happens if you run this liquid heating into a car that used to have automatic climate control? Will it still be able to regulate the temp in the cabin automatically?


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## jaspersk (Jun 26, 2008)

mons2b said:


> what happens if you run this liquid heating into a car that used to have automatic climate control? Will it still be able to regulate the temp in the cabin automatically?


Usually cabin temperature controls regulate the mix of hot & cold air, not the amount of coolant. I would imagine that it would work fine. I should note that on my car, vacuum is needed to move some dampers. You might need to look at what drives the controls in your specific car.


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## PhantomPholly (Aug 20, 2008)

dougingraham said:


> I have been thinking of peltier cooling/heating for a while now and I think it would be a good solution but not necessarily for a conversion.


Fun for the lab but not practical for cars. Weight and efficiency and finding someplace to put enough of them to heat / cool the interior for all weather conditions would be monumental challenges.

Better off stealing one of the upcoming heat pumps from a production EV. Or, install an old-school gas heater (cheating I know, and not purist EV).


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## TheSGC (Nov 15, 2007)

I've used a similar water heater in my EV for several years, but I keep burning out the element so I'm replacing it with a ceramic heater. 

This last failure I think was related to the valve closing which the element was on and just boiled over and burnt out the element and blew a line. It also would take about 15 minutes to heat up enough to defrost the windows but would not get hot enough to keep comfy.

I don't think it would work well with a climate control since it does move the valve for the heat and could lead to issues similar to what I've experienced.


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## mons2b (Nov 17, 2015)

TheSGC said:


> I've used a similar water heater in my EV for several years, but I keep burning out the element so I'm replacing it with a ceramic heater.
> 
> This last failure I think was related to the valve closing which the element was on and just boiled over and burnt out the element and blew a line. It also would take about 15 minutes to heat up enough to defrost the windows but would not get hot enough to keep comfy.
> 
> I don't think it would work well with a climate control since it does move the valve for the heat and could lead to issues similar to what I've experienced.


A temperature circuit and a relay would solve the over heating issue. Set a normally closed relay to open if the temp goes too high. That would save the element. Also insulating the hoses that are exposed in the engine bay would help with heatup time. Theres downsides to the ceramic option too if the fan failed to turn it would burn out almost instantly with a cloud of discusting smoke in the cabin. If you go that way I would suggest a temp cutoff also.


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## Rastusmalinus (Sep 26, 2011)

Hi,
I tried the liquid heater. I bought it from one of the EV dealers. I hooked it all up on the bench with water circulating in a bucket. The built-in temperature switch wouldn't open until the water was really bubbling, but I figured since I would be using a 50/50 mix I would be fine. I tested it in the car in a closed system, and antifreeze was squirting out any place it could find. It was very disappointing, and I had to clean up a big mess. I don't think I have any room for a reservoir under the hood unless I get extremely creative. There needs to be a solution that isn't so darn complicated. For my previous build I went the ceramic element route. That was also a bunch of work, and it didn't work as well as I had hoped.


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## mons2b (Nov 17, 2015)

Rastusmalinus said:


> Hi,
> I tried the liquid heater. I bought it from one of the EV dealers. I hooked it all up on the bench with water circulating in a bucket. The built-in temperature switch wouldn't open until the water was really bubbling, but I figured since I would be using a 50/50 mix I would be fine. I tested it in the car in a closed system, and antifreeze was squirting out any place it could find. It was very disappointing, and I had to clean up a big mess. I don't think I have any room for a reservoir under the hood unless I get extremely creative. There needs to be a solution that isn't so darn complicated. For my previous build I went the ceramic element route. That was also a bunch of work, and it didn't work as well as I had hoped.


How about you reduce the size of your washer fluid container? perhaps by finding a smaller one from another model. That would leave you with a small space. Or remove it entirely and place the hot water reservoir there. Relocate the washer fluid tank to the glove box. Its a bit of work but either option is doable.


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## GoElectric (Nov 15, 2015)

Hi - I just read this whole thread and learned a few things. I'm still not clear about open or closed system, but this is quite new to me. 

Right now I have gotten as far as ordering a small hot water pump and will buy a Philips and Temro fluid heater. If anyone has pictures of how they fill/bleed their system of air (closed or open), I'd appreciate that. There was a picture of some kind of a fill device, but the link(s) were too old. 

As far as an open system goes, are we talking about like an ICE radiator, with a overflow and air in the overflow? This is still pressurised, so I don't think so, and mention of a coke bottle and a tube means I definitely don't get it. Would that just be a "T" in the uppermost part of the system, with.... a hose going to a coke bottle??

Thanks


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## jaspersk (Jun 26, 2008)

For an open system, I simply use the overflow container from ICE coolant system. There is an outlet on the bottom which flows to the pump inlet. After going through the system, the fluids dumps back into the top of the container. I tried my darnedest to bleed all of the air out of a closed system. I really thought I had it but my pump still gets air bound. A self priming pump would solve that but I wanted a nice quiet pump.


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## GoElectric (Nov 15, 2015)

Thanks. Open system.


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