# London VW Vangon EV build - NewB help please



## PStechPaul (May 1, 2012)

I like the idea of making an electric Vanagon. Yours appears to be in pretty good shape. You have asked a lot of questions, all of which have been answered to some extent in this forum and on many websites and tutorials on EVs. There are also some excellent books on conversions and basic electrical and motor theory and practice.

At this point, I think it is not practical to build an EV only for the purpose of saving money and getting a reasonable ROI, at least in the US where gasoline is about $3.50/gallon and ICE vehicles can provide 35-50 MPG. But in Europe and UK the fuel cost is probably 3-4 times what we pay, so the equation changes.

The costs and benefits of lead vs lithium have been debated ad nauseam, and there is still no clear winner, although that depends on many factors. For city driving and lower speed roads (40 MPH/60kMPH), and relatively short distances, lead batteries may be adequate and certainly cheaper initially, especially if you consider less critical charging requirements and the trade-in value for lead recycling. I have calculated that lead batteries can be obtained for about $0.06/Wh, while lithium is about $0.40/Wh. But unless you have a huge lead pack with current draw less than about 0.25C, Peukert effects cut the effective energy in half, so you have about $0.12/Wh. If lithium cells last 3 to 4 times longer, the long term costs favor them.

You are welcome to use my http://enginuitysystems.com/EVCalculator.htm which has some reasonable default values for the parameters you need to figure out power and energy requirements. It also has a Peukert calculator if you want to consider lead. For instance, a 1600 kg vehicle moving 60 kMPH on a 5% grade will take about 25 HP (19 kW) and require about 500 Wh/mile (320 Wh/kM). But if you have an average of 2% grade, it becomes 15 HP and 300 Wh/mile. For your 40 mile commute you would need about 12 kWh but realistically, for 80% DOD, about 15 kWh of lithium and 30 kWh of lead. So you would be looking at about $1800 of lead batteries or $6000 of lithium. These are optimistic figures and are likely to be higher rather than lower.

Personally I favor a high voltage battery pack (240 to 600 volt) and a VFD drive with an industrial 3 phase AC motor. But if you don't have much experience and knowledge of electrical theory and motors, you may do better with a series DC motor and controller, because of a greater base of experience in the DIY community. I would expect to be able to get a 25 HP AC motor and VFD for about $2000. My own 2 HP motor and controller cost about $150, but that's just a simple system in a small tractor.

I don't drive very much, and when I do it is usually for long distances where my little Saturn does well with 35-45 MPG. So I have little economic incentive to convert it to an EV or purchase one. But I believe in the concept and I would love to do a conversion using my own design. If lithium battery technology (or other type) make advances in cost and performance, probably in a couple of years it will be more attractive. Good luck!


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## Otmar (Dec 4, 2008)

I agree with most of what Paul said above (not the high voltage though). 
If you want to save money, go buy a Leaf. 
I also plan to electrify a Vanagon.
If you are determined to move a heavy inefficient brick (AKA Vanagon) down the road then do as I am doing and open up your wallet! 

Your commute route is very important. Speeds and net altitude gain and loss have a great effect on power use and therefore range. 

Vanagon Aero numbers are here, but all bets are off if you plan to keep the roof bars.  

http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e208/schmeldenhoffer/T3Aerodynamics-vi.jpg

Paul, I like your calculator! Thanks for posting that. 
Although grades are important for figuring power and acceleration, when it comes to range calcs I set them to zero for flat and level range.
I put in some numbers in the calculator for a warm dry flat constant speed drive in a tin top Vanagon. This assumes good LRR tires. You can probably improve the aero with a belly pan and the usual tricks. The calculator comes up with 381 Wh/Mile. Figure 50% more for real life driving, so about 571 wh/mile and of course it varies with driving habits and weather. These numbers are the first step for figuring out the available range.










I prefer to make a long term financial investment and use lithium, but most people go with what they know which may be lead. Don't expect more than 45 mile range using lead, and maybe 30 or less in the winter. As before, there are many variables. There are a number of Vanagons you can review on the EV Album with a wealth of hidden information in the descriptions. 

Just go here and text search for Vanagon. http://www.evalbum.com/

I hope this helps get you started.


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## skooler (Mar 26, 2011)

Hi Vanagonvolts,

Fellow UK EVer here.

Rather than just building I suggest we look at your requirements and budget and make recommendations for components based on that.

Come up with a plan before starting and stick to it.

So:

What are your range requirements? do you make regular journeys? can you charge on route anywhere? Any random long journeys?

What are your performance requirements? 0-60 times? top speed? 

What is your budget?

I do find it odd that you have been recommended lead. Lead is dead, Dependent on your requirements I'd go LiFePO4.

If you need an example of why not to use lead then read my build thread (in my signature)!

Cheers,

Mike


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## vanagonvolts (Jul 16, 2013)

skooler said:


> Hi Vanagonvolts,
> 
> Fellow UK EVer here.
> 
> ...


Good morning Mike! My first EV enthusiast acquaintance in the UK! Thanks for your hand-hold at this stage in getting me going...

I'd like to add early on that I was always going to keep my economical tdi A4 for long journeys, but if Lithium can give me a range of over 100 miles, I suspect a strong case to get rid of it, which will only support the decision to opt for the (initially) more expensive outlay, and work out _even more cost effective_ in the long run.

(It appears at first glace that Lithium batteries are not as cheap here in the UK as they are in the US which is skewing my perspective??)

I'll have a punt at articulating my requirments thus: 

-2-3 x per week a trip to London for work which is 40 miles each way, and I can charge at work.
- At least 1 daily trip(s) of extremely short distances; anywhere betweek 1 - 7 miles with regular start stops.
- 2 trips a week of 15 mile round trips and no charging between.

Its very hilly around our way so I'd expect regen is worthwhile but I may be wrong. Please correct me I need to include something else as a measuring stick other than just hills.

If Lead Acid is looking like the favorite just with the exception of my work run not being possible, there are other trips I would like to factor in. For example, a Costco run is 22 miles each way (unlikely ability to charge), and my dad is in London and 33 miles away each way (with the ability to charge but not for hours on end). Lastly another venue we visit is in Godstone and about 37 miles away one way with an as yet unknown ability to charge for the day.

I dont have any particular performance requirements. I pootle to most places, but dont want too big a disparity in motorway speeds than the slowest vehicles. It'd be nice to sit along with the trucks in the slow lane around 55-60mph but beyond that I'm not at all _phased_ 

Why is Pb dead? Its the most widely abundant and attainable, well understood, and high percentage recyclable.


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## skooler (Mar 26, 2011)

Morning.

I have two cars also, a diesel and the electric.

Lithium does work out more expensive in the UK. I have been importing Sinopoly cells for UK builders and the average order comes in at just over £1/AH for a mid size pack after all the duty, fees, taxes and delivery have been paid.

From what you have said. It looks like you could get away with a solid 40 mile range and keep the diesel, or get rid of the diesel and go fo a 100+ mile range.

Lead will give you neither of these.

Performance wise, if you where to go lithium you should have all the power you need to get up to 70MPH, the minimum you could get away with is 56MPH on a UK motorway but do you really want to go that slow?

Lead is heavier, lasts less (500 cycles max), doesnt put out as much current and begins to degrade the moment you start using it.

LiFePO4 is lighter, usually cheaper in the long run, puts out more current and will do 2-3000 cycles before it degrades to 80% of it's original capacity.

I started off with lead and regret it now. Loads of work just for the 18KWH pack to be down to <10 mile range after 500miles.

So onto component recommendation:

*Motor and Controller*
You don't require great performance so for an AC solution I'd say go for an AC50 or AC75 with a curtis 1238 controller.

For a DC solution I'd look at the Soliton Jr with a Kostov motor. 9" will be fine for city driving. If you are going to be doing motorway miles I'd upgrade this to the 11"alpha which will be able to sustain higher currents for longer.

If you wanted hiher performance then go for the Soliton1 and Kostov11alpha but I dont think this fits in with what you said.

Kostov also do AC motors but I haven't heard any reviews on these.

http://kostov-motors.com/tractionmotors/kostovevmotors(ac-dc)/seriesdcmotorsforelectricvehicles/

*Batteries
*Your contoller selection drives you battery selection. Basically you want to go for as high a voltage as our controller will allow. So for the Curtis 1238 about 120v and anything up to 350v with the soliton.

Assume 500wh/mile for you Vangon (worst case), its square so wont be too efficient, this also allows some extra overhead for things like a heater and environmental variables like weather and terrain.

There is a rule of thumb that you'll use 1 wh/mile for every 10lb of car
so your 1600KG vangon (~3000lb) would use 300wh/mile. I cant quite see that being right due to the aerodynamics.

40 miles * 500wh/mile is 20KWH

You cant use all 100% of your battery so make this figure 80% of your total capacity

20KWH / 0.8 = 25KWH total pack size required for 40 mile range.

Then divide this figure by the voltage you plan to run at to get the required AH capacity of the cells.

25000wh / 350v = 71.4AH

you cant get 71.4 AH cells, the next major size is 100AH so lets work with that as the voltage will still be high enough.

so 25KWH/100AH = 250v

250v /3.2 (voltage per cll) is 78.125. call it 80 * 100AH cells for a solid 40 mile range if you where to run with the soliton controller.

That'd be about £8,000- -£8,500 to get into the UK.

Using the same logic you could probaby get away with 38*200AH cells with the Curtis controller.

The above allows for a lot of overhead and variables and shoul probably be looked at as a worse case scenario. You could probably get away with a smaller battery but you wouldn't guarantee that range.

Hope this helps.

Cheers,

Mike










(this is not a sales pitch)


vanagonvolts said:


> Good morning Mike! My first EV enthusiast acquaintance in the UK! Thanks for your hand-hold at this stage in getting me going...
> 
> I'd like to add early on that I was always going to keep my economical tdi A4 for long journeys, but if Lithium can give me a range of over 100 miles, I suspect a strong case to get rid of it, which will only support the decision to opt for the (initially) more expensive outlay, and work out _even more cost effective_ in the long run.
> 
> ...


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## vanagonvolts (Jul 16, 2013)

Thanks so much Mike - you've provided a pretty sensible flow chart on what to do when designing a system. Thanks again.



skooler said:


> From what you have said. It looks like you could get away with a solid 40 mile range and keep the diesel, or get rid of the diesel and go fo a 100+ mile range.


Nail on the head. Although getting rid of the Audi or at least making it SORN makes it more compelling to go Li as I wouldn't have all of its expenses.




skooler said:


> Performance wise, if you where to go lithium you should have all the power you need to get up to 70MPH, the minimum you could get away with is 56MPH on a UK motorway but do you really want to go that slow?


60mph is OK for me. I've scratched the itch with the 240hp flat 6 in the bus. Had a couple of RS6s in the past too. Speed is pretty hollow for me now. It just means that the Li will last even longer right?



skooler said:


> LiFePO4 is lighter, usually cheaper in the long run, puts out more current and will do 2-3000 cycles before it degrades to 80% of it's original capacity.


OK I'm sold.



skooler said:


> I started off with lead and regret it now. Loads of work just for the 18KWH pack to be down to <10 mile range after 500miles.


OUCH 



skooler said:


> So onto component recommendation:
> 
> *Motor and Controller*
> You don't require great performance so for an AC solution I'd say go for an AC50 or AC75 with a curtis 1238 controller.
> ...


Lets say AC because I want regen (and you cant regen with DC correct?). 



skooler said:


> Kostov also do AC motors but I haven't heard any reviews on these.
> 
> http://kostov-motors.com/tractionmot...ctricvehicles/


I'll mostly be taking short boring trips around town and a couple of long journeys where I can pootle along. But it would be nice for it not to be underpowered, and if buying the correct motor and controller is largely what will influence this, then I'd rather get the best ones up front and not suffer sluggish performance. I have a light foot so I wont be running it ragged depleting my range. It's just nice knowing the performance is there if you need it.

So how abou the 144v Curtis controller and the Kostov K11 alpha or the K13 'ideal for vans or trucks'?



skooler said:


> *Batteries
> *Your contoller selection drives you battery selection. Basically you want to go for as high a voltage as our controller will allow. So for the Curtis 1238 about 120v and anything up to 350v with the soliton.
> 
> Assume 500wh/mile for you Vangon (worst case), its square so wont be too efficient, this also allows some extra overhead for things like a heater and environmental variables like weather and terrain.
> ...


OK. I got most of that. Except afterwards I reworked the numbers for a range of 100 miles.

Assumed 160v witht the new 144v Curtis controller.

100 miles * 500wh/miles = 50KWH system * 1.2 = 62.5KWH system required.

62,500WH/160v = 400AH per cell.

160v / 3.2v cells = 50 * 400AH cells. which comes to a cool Grand Total: £18,635.32 British Pound Sterling	(21,442.19 €)


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## skooler (Mar 26, 2011)

vanagonvolts said:


> Thanks so much Mike - you've provided a pretty sensible flow chart on what to do when designing a system. Thanks again.
> 
> Nail on the head. Although getting rid of the Audi or at least making it SORN makes it more compelling to go Li as I wouldn't have all of its expenses.
> 
> ...


Glad I can help.

OK just to be clear, I recommended AC and DC solutions

Kostov do both, The Kostov11a and K13 are both series DC motors and require a DC controller like the soliton. The Kostov 11a would work well in your van.

The Curtis 1238 is an AC controller that requires an AC motor. HPEVS have a good reputation.

Like I say, Kostov do AC motors but I haven't heard of anyone using them.

http://kostov-motors.com/tractionmotors/kostovevmotors(ac-dc)/3-phaseacmotorsforelectricvehicles/

An AC50 or AC75 from EVTV EU would also be a good match if you wanted to go AC.

http://wh.newelectric.nl/products.php?cat=11&pg=2

Worth mentioning that DC is slightly easier for a first build.

As for range, I said 500WH/ mile as an absolute worse case, heater on full, driving at night, etc.

You'll probably average closer to 300 but it could be higher due to the aerodynamics.

If you re-run the numbers at 300WH/mile it looks a lot better.

In my opinion this is the wrong shape for a 100 mile range conversion.

If you went for a lightweight aerodynamic car you could literally halve your pack size!

Hope this helps.

Cheers,

Mike


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## 3lud13 (Aug 6, 2013)

Wow this is pretty much what I was just coming in here to ask about as I have a 1984 vanagon with a holden v6 in it wanting to rip it out and go electric will certainbly be checking back in here to see how you are doing and include it in my research reading for sure


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## onegreenev (May 18, 2012)

Hey, you guys need to watch this guys conversion of a 91 Dual Cab Vanagon. He has 5 videos so far on this build. He has others which will be well worth watching. He is putting in an AC-75. 

http://www.youtube.com/user/ev4ucustomconversion/videos

Pete 

He is located in Shasta California. Just north of us here. Met him at a VW Bug-O-Rama a few years ago when I took my Electric Ghia to the show.


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## vanagonvolts (Jul 16, 2013)

onegreenev said:


> Hey, you guys need to watch this guys conversion of a 91 Dual Cab Vanagon. He has 5 videos so far on this build. He has others which will be well worth watching. He is putting in an AC-75.
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/user/ev4ucustomconversion/videos
> 
> ...


Oh wow, my wife is from Vallejo. I should look you guys up next time we're out to visit.

Thanks for the heads up on the videos.


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