# New guy love the idea but it's all Greek to me.



## CamaroGuy (Feb 9, 2012)

Ok to start i have a classic car that i am restoring.And soon the old engine will be tired and ready to sleep.This means that while i am restoring i need to come up with a plan for her future. doesn't matter how i look at it the car has to be fast atleast 100mph. i'm not looking to drive this car more than 30 miles a day at most anyway. but with any nice V8 the cost of gas is outrageous and only getting worse.

I saw the white Zombie once just eating high hp gas cars alive and thats what got thinking about this.This was when it was still using lead batts so i know it can be done on the low end of cost (about the same as a good v8 install)yes there is range again but i would rather have a car that i can afford to drive everyday(even if only short distances)that a garage queen.

i suppose what i am looking for is a guide and translator through these foreign lands.

i'd like to start looking from a budget minded perspective first

I am still going through the wiki pages and while they are a wealth of knowledge. i'm a gear head and not much of an electrician.

ok so here is my end goal plan for electric
100mph
nice and peppy
40mile range
on a budget (whats realistic)
i'm not against used or old parts

lets start with the engine.i here alot of motors being mentioned kostov and netgain at the top of the list.Being a mechanic i see this as the crate of the electric world. What is available that with a little knowledge and some work can be turned into a good motor on the cheap.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

Welcome to the forum.
What car are you restoring?

I stated similar to you, a good mechanic but only experienced in house electrics.

I don't believe you will get, or need, 100mph for 40miles at any sensible budget but either could be possible. Certainly 40mile range is fine at more sedate speeds as a day to day car.

Fork lift truck motors are a good starting point for a budget motor that you can work on and upgrade later. You can have a read of this thread to get an idea of what people are generally considering and what you should pass by.

The Paul and Sabrina controller is a good option. You can read about it here and order one here. The Soliton jr or Soliton 1 are also worth a look as the designers are members here to support it. Depends on budget though.

Keep reading in the mean time and then ask questions in the forums as required.


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## CamaroGuy (Feb 9, 2012)

The car is a first gen Camaro so it has to be able to hit 100(the inline 6 with the stock single barrel carb can hit that and i still get almost 20mph freeway if i just cruze).The bottom line is that whatever replaces my stock motor has got to have more power.i won't be passed by a honda on the freeway unless i feel like letting it by. I'm willing to start with less range untell i can save for some lipo batts if thats what it takes.

but when we are talking costs if it costs 10,000 to go electric and you get a golfcart or 10,000 for a nice ls3 that will cost me at the pump the gas prices seem ok for enough speed to hit the tracks or keep the racers in check.

This is more about pride and being different than saving money at the pump really. I am putting alot of love and effort into restoring her.I could easily drop a cheep v8 in and be done with it. but she didn't come from the factory with a v8 she came with a stout underrated I6. i love that engine and if parts weren't harder to find that the city of Atlantis i would leave it in.

the main point is there is always a price and a sacrifice to be different and think out side the box.And i have had quite a few ideas some that cost way less and some that cost way more but making an all electric Camaro just seems the coolest to me. it might not make it more than a few miles but hell when was the last time you saw a 600hp+ Car that didn't stop every few miles to refuel my refulling just takes longer so what.


*edit*i suppose what i am asking is not if it's possible but more of what can be budget and what i must spend an arm and a leg on to make 100mph possible.

where can i pinch that penny and where do i need to chop limbs to make my idea happen.

also my budget is more than 1000 but hopefully less than 9000 and this is not a project i expect to finish in under a year as i am more interested in finishing the body than power plants atm When it comes to projects i'm a turtle i take the slow and steady approach by the time i'm ready to focus on a power plant they might have lost the battle of batteries over oil and batts might be cheeper who knows. This whole thing is all research. this forum is a wealth of knowledge and i don't intend to just start buying parts without a clear direction in hand.


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## skooler (Mar 26, 2011)

CamaroGuy said:


> i suppose what i am asking is not if it's possible but more of what can be budget and what i must spend an arm and a leg on to make 100mph possible.


 
Its very hard to say unless you give us a budget!

I think that as a minimum you will need:

11" motor (or dual 9"/11")
1000A controller, probably more (e.g. soliton1 but this is *only* 350KW, 470HP),
A battery pack capable of putting out 450KW in power (600HP)
a lot of courage
as an example:
Kostov11 250V $2,500 
Soliton 1 $3,000
Misc $2-5,000

Then for battery you could go 1 of 2 routes,Lithium Prismatic cells or Lithium pouch cells. Forget lead for 100MPH and/or 40 miles range.

You would probably need about 40-50KWH+ of prismatics (look at Sinopoly and CALB) in order to keep in decent C rates on accelleration.

You could have a look at A123 pouch cells, Jack Rickard has been doing a lot of tests of A123 cells over the last couple of weeks on EVTV. ( http://evtv.me )

These will allow for much higher C rates meaning you nead less cells overall.

I would think you need about £10-15K of batteries for your goals.

Let us know you budget and we can help a lot more.

Cheers,

Mike


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## CamaroGuy (Feb 9, 2012)

First i'll start with a question Why not lead it was good enough for the White zombie for a long time?

Second the budget.
on the low end (dumpster diving if i have too) 5k
high end 10k All us of course.
anything above 10k and we get into respectable ls conversions and i am still drooling on a 6.0ls3 build

lets talk power first milage later as i can always save up and buy lithium later down the line.

Lets say i stage it out over a few years looking at an end game not short term
Remember i am restoring this car so as it still isn't on the road very often as is making short drives or runs at a track is completly an option.

so we say 40 miles is out and move on to power

end game is 100mph anything more and is crazy as i would only hit 100mph legaly on the track (if i'm lucky)

so with a car that weighs 2200pounds minus engine
i want to start with power in mind lets hurl it to 100mph then think of mpg
if we could pull 10 miles thats groceries movies and a fun little trip around town to show off.

now i know that mileage is AH if we started with the idea of using lead(saving money tell taxes and the cost of less gas use adds up)what do i need to spend the money on now and what can i salvage build and fab so save money.

now remember i am not going to be driving at 100mph all the time just in short burst i want it as an around the town car most of the time so we would be looking more at a max of 60 Freeway speeds and an average of 35 all the time as i would be in town 90% of the time.

so we are looking at both start up and end game i don't want to be rebuying parts like motors cause one is not powerfull enough stuff like that.

it's no different than thinking of buying a BBC vs a SBC when you want big end game power if you buy an SBC end game costs are more for the same power a BBC will produce but the BBC costs more in the beginning.

so i guess to sum up and make it realistic lets look at it this way.

year 1
buy major drivetrain and parts to convert and get respectable in town driving and possibly freeway speeds(that's totally optional)

Years 2-3
save money enjoy cruising in my restored car.

years 4-5 buy high end powerpacks (who knows what will be available by then) and maybe consider 3phase ac but this would break my first rule and only really an option if i buy a donor to put old parts in.

now this whole plan is easily a year off at this point so this is merely research for the next phase of my restoration. I have had this car sense i was 13 my aunt was the first owner and through a long series of tragic events the car got to me in poor shape and then sat for alot longer in garages and under tarps. so just cleaning it up brings a grin to my face.

and when i'm done i want it to turn heads and i don't care how the old school can puke up a piston for all i care and the rice burners can keep seeing my taillights and to achieve these goals i'll put anything under the hood but out of all my ideas i have scribbled down electric is down right the coolest.

it's quite
power is right there the second you push the peddle
and the fuel is dirt cheep

that in my opinion is a wining trifecta 

sorry i rambled but i figured a story behind it might help you understand what i'm going for.


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## MN Driver (Sep 29, 2009)

"Why not lead it was good enough for the White zombie for a long time?"

Have you read the White Zombie history section on his site? "Good enough" was using some of the most expensive cells available to get the most powerful cells using the smallest capacity as possible to keep the weight down. The end result was using lead-acid pack at or beyond its limits. There were plenty of examples of those batteries failing catastrophically.

A lead-acid pack that gets 40 miles will weigh the car down a ton and you might have a bit of a struggle getting those bricks to 100mph, not to mention lead-acid batteries last a very short time with long heavy discharges.


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## madmike8 (Jun 16, 2011)

I think you'll drop half your high end budget on motor & controller alone, and still need good batteries... So, you might want want to rethink your budget or goals...

I say keep the I6 get a couple 4cyl turbos or a holset off a dodge diesel truck. Use a megasquirt efi or some off the shelf efi setup. You can build a simple log style turbo manifold pretty easy.


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## Ziggythewiz (May 16, 2010)

MN Driver said:


> A lead-acid pack that gets 40 miles will weigh the car down a ton and you might have a bit of a struggle getting those bricks to 100mph, not to mention lead-acid batteries last a very short time with long heavy discharges.


If you can get a ton of them (literally, 2000 lbs would be necessary) to 100 mph, they'd be pretty awesome going through something.


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## skooler (Mar 26, 2011)

Hi CamaroGuy,

Good question!

According to the white zombie website, in 2009 they were using: 

60 Enersys high current 16 ahr @ 14.2 lbs. each lead acid batteries. Total pack volts 360 (2 X 360V in parallel) and the combined weight of both packs at 852 lbs.

http://www.plasmaboyracing.com/history/2009s.php

I've probably been a bit niave saying 'forget lead'

What I should probably of said is:

Its heavy
Its expensive (for the kind of discharge rates your looking at)
It doesnt last very long
Technology has moved on since 2009
I believe if you were to use ~200 A123 pouch cells (100S2P) for 320V and 40AH nominal you could get a very quick car, for a short range.

You could probably pull 800Amps from these easily.

The cells are around $25 each, so 200 should be ~$5,000

Kakheath is converting an RX8 and has just bought 500 of these http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showthread.php/tennessee-rx8-conversion-68311p3.html

You could then simply add more cells in parellel as the funds are available, and even add another motor.

So....

Soliton 1 $3,000

Kostov 11 $2,500

Cells $5,000

You could probably get the motor and controller second hand if you wanted.

how does that sound?


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## CamaroGuy (Feb 9, 2012)

skooler said:


> Hi CamaroGuy,
> 
> Good question!
> 
> ...


this was the info i was aiming for i think of the batts exactly as what they are the fuel so buying more of them down the line isn't an issue when i say my budget is 9k on the top end this is for the motor and all drive systems and enough fulee to run it for a short distance sorry if i wasn't clear


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## CamaroGuy (Feb 9, 2012)

madmike8 said:


> I think you'll drop half your high end budget on motor & controller alone, and still need good batteries... So, you might want want to rethink your budget or goals...
> 
> I say keep the I6 get a couple 4cyl turbos or a holset off a dodge diesel truck. Use a megasquirt efi or some off the shelf efi setup. You can build a simple log style turbo manifold pretty easy.


this was one of my ideas but all that work leads to minim gains with a motor that will not last under the loads it will produce. it would give alot befor it died but an old tired motor with one rebuild under it's belt and another soon on the way is not a sound idea no matter how interesting the motor was befor it puked a rod.

i spent 4 years doing research on that idea and i have the Chevrolet Inline Six-Cylinder Power Manual. i fully understand that gas is cheaper to make power.

if i spend 15k over the course of 6 years i'm ok with that the budget is for the initial drive system everything it would take to get it driving not the fuel to drive it.


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## EVfun (Mar 14, 2010)

The White Zombie got down to 13.18 at just under 100 mph in the quarter mile with a single string of 16 amp hour Hawker cells. It was not uncommon to change a cell in the pits after it spewed during a run. The current limit was about 700 amps before meltdown was a real possibility. To get that kind of performance from such a small pack the vehicle weight was about 2000 pounds (including the 378 pound pack.) Each run was faster than the one before as the cells heated up (unless one blew apart.) The range was likely less than 10 miles. John used to say, "at least a quarter mile" when asked. After a couple seasons (and little off season use with that short range) it needed a new pack of expensive Hawker Genesis cells. A single string of those would cost about $3000 today. 

I really appreciated the 2000 setup because it was a measure of just how much power the Genesis cells could put out. There wasn't really much to gain short of more power or less weight. Eventually the single 10.7 inch Kostov motor failed from the abuse. I think a small pack of high discharge rate Lithium cells would make this a lot more practical today.


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## CamaroGuy (Feb 9, 2012)

yeah i watched alot of those races on youtube i know lithium can do it and i don't expect lead to get ME to 100mph what i am looking for is a sum total of parts (motor Controller and other parts) that can take that kind of load. that way when i can afford the lithium it's as simple as install bats changing the charger/bms and go for 100mph. 

right now i am focused on a 196v battery pack made from 12v deep cycle batteries to get me around i'm hoping this will get me above 40mph

but i'm not sure which batteries to buy


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## EVfun (Mar 14, 2010)

You will go way faster than 40 mph with a 196 volt pack. That used to be pretty common. For good performance you will want a quality AGM (absorbed glass mat) pack. I don't think Optimas are up to their previous quality but they have been used plenty of times. You could try Deka Intimidators, I don't think many have used them but the spec sheet looks suitable. There are always Odyssey and Genesis batteries from Hawker. Flooded lead will not create a vehicle with anything described as good performance.


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## CamaroGuy (Feb 9, 2012)

odyssey batts seem to be way cheeper are they bad performers?


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## EVfun (Mar 14, 2010)

They have a good reputation. Like all Hawker batteries they need a pretty fast initial charge or they seem to slowly loose capacity. You will need shunt regulators for each battery as lead doesn't stay balanced and must be regularly fully charged. You have to look at the amp hours to compare batteries. You can get the 16 amp hour cells for around $100 each, but 16 of those will only get you a few miles range. Once you get up to 60 amp hour cells (group 34 size, like Optimas) the batteries are close to $300 each. The pack would cost over $4000. 

You can figure on using about 60% of the stated capacity at EV discharge rates. So a 16 amp hour battery supply about 9.6 amp hours before the voltage sag under load becomes excessive. 16 of those would be about 1800 watt hours of storage (9,6 amp hours times 12 volts each times 16 batteries.) If you can keep the power consumption down to 300 watt hours per miles (not racing, average for driving) you have about a 6 mile range. If you go with the 68 amp hour group 34 Odyssey batteries the range increases to about 25 miles. The thing is, the pack is getting expensive and can only be expected to dish out good performance and expected range for a few hundred cycles (more if you use half the available range and turn down the peak power.)

EVs are kinda expensive. I don't know that lead makes it much cheaper except for those users willing to accept low performance. Golf cart batteries have a longer cycle life and are cheaper, compared AGM cells. The thing is, they are heavy. It is hard to get performance better than about a 40 horsepower Beetle using golf cart batteries.


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## CamaroGuy (Feb 9, 2012)

now i just need a place to source the cheapest batteries and to find a motor the warp and kostovs are nice but i'd like to find something in the sub 1k area everyone talks about forklift motors but i can't source any.



"enough potential energy packed into its batteries to fire a pound of bacon into the Asteroid Belt" Just to quote one of my all time favorite books Neal Stephenson's Snow Crash.


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

Hi
You sound like a fellow cheapskate - are you a Scotsman?

I am building on the cheap,
Motor - 11 inch from a forklift - $100
OpenRevolt Controller - - $600
Home made charger - $150
Batteries - Headway 16Ah - 88 0ff (44 series 2 Parallel) $2200

These are going in my 500Kg Lotus 7 type machine 

Estimated range 20 miles

Performance - good I hope!

http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forum...ns-dubious-device-44370.html?highlight=duncan 

If (when) it needs more umf -
I can upgrade the controller - OpenRevolt are working on a 1000 amp unit
Fit more batteries

Forklift motors
find out who services them in your area - drive over to see them with cash - old motors are usually sold for scrap value
be prepared to take away a very heavy very dirty lump of iron

Worst case buy a duff forklift - lots of other goodies in there, contactors...
take what you need and sell the rest
Farmers here buy the mast and forks to go on their tractors


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## CamaroGuy (Feb 9, 2012)

Duncan said:


> Hi
> You sound like a fellow cheapskate - are you a Scotsman?
> 
> I am building on the cheap,
> ...



i suppose i should put my local in and update my profile lol

i'm in OLY wa usa

few things i must say
Scottish 35% lol
and i love the super7 platform always wanted to build one but never had the garage space.(have to move camaro out first) maybe next ev..??

but yes i am as cheep as i can be (untell i actually start buying parts then the ooooo shiny factor kicks in lol)


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## tomofreno (Mar 3, 2009)

CamaroGuy said:


> First i'll start with a question Why not lead it was good enough for the White zombie for a long time?


 The simple answer is because he was only doing 1/4 mile, and you want to do 40 at 100 mph. The packs the racers use are optimized for power, not range. You require both, which is the most difficult and expensive.


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## CamaroGuy (Feb 9, 2012)

no at the moment i just want to build an ev End goal is 100mph at 40 miles or so

right now just hitting 60 with a range of 10 is fine as long as most of the parts i buy will work towards those goals minus batteries.


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## rtcaldwell (Apr 4, 2012)

I find myself in a similar bot CameroGuy, I have a 1962 Ford Fairlane that I have had for almost 20 years and the engine/tranny are on their last leg. I am also in the research phase to figure out how much it'll cost and where to invest my money. 

I have read recently that there have been major advances in battery performance/life by Northwestern University which obviously isn't commercially available, but may be in about 3-5 years. 

A great deal of this technical jargon (Amps, KWh, Warp11, etc) is lost on me, but I am determined to figure it out. If you are even in the Portland OR area, we should hook up and chat. I'm not that far from your locale.

PM me if you're interested.


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