# A123...?!



## CroDriver (Jan 8, 2009)

Hi guys.

We have some bigger projects here going on that could make it into production.
We will use 900 A123 20Ah cells per car.

Our plan is to purchase 15.000 A123 cells the first year of production and we
need 1.500 cells right now for prototyping.

I managed to get 350 cells but not directly from A123. We have a business name
and a BIG German OEM partner. But A123 doesn't even answer our mails!? What is
wrong with them?

I know that some of you guys had (or still have) A123 sponsorships. I would be
very thankful for a e-mail address of someone within A123 who could give us at
least some information.

Or some other producer that has similar performance LiFePO4 cells? (we're not interested in Li-Po)

Thanks!


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## LiFe (May 24, 2010)

CroDriver said:


> Hi guys.
> 
> I managed to get 350 cells but not directly from A123. We have a business name
> and a BIG German OEM partner. But A123 doesn't even answer our mails!? What is
> ...


Seriously, you might want to look at it from the other side for a moment.

I know you're a nice guy. A little thick , but a nice guy so I'll be nice... consider it just a thread bump.

It's very hard to convince an OEM to sell their products to you when you're already in possession of A123 inventory that was stolen from an assembly facility in ROK.

Regardless of what Paul told you -ie: they'd fallen off a truck, an inventory overage, A123 needed some quick cash (I liked that one ), or any other made up story to explain their origin. 
You knew something was amiss. Some nobody expat acquired them from a chinese national for an unknown price in a back alley deal with no background information. Does Anglo-Asian Technical Solutions Ltd. sound familiar? and wired to HSBC in HK? You bad boy 

You may have even known these prismatic cells were on allocation to automotive OEM's, unavailable to EV wannabe's with a fistfull of cash, no matter how cool they were. 


A123 Systems are aware of what has happened to that allocated inventory, hence your problem in receiving a cognitive response. 
Security changes have been put into effect to ensure this does not reoccur. Explaining your difficulty in acquiring additional inventory. 
- It's best you don't disclose to your BIG german OEM partner where you acquired those prismatic cells.

Enjoy your toys. Please don't blame A123 Systems if you set your pants on fire.

Cheers.


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## DavidDymaxion (Dec 1, 2008)

Any tips one where mere mortals can buy these 20 Ahr A123 cells?


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## jeremyjs (Sep 22, 2010)

DavidDymaxion said:


> Any tips one where mere mortals can buy these 20 Ahr A123 cells?



Good luck. Last I heard A123 will not allow the sale of these bare cells to end users.


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## efan (Aug 27, 2009)

LiFe said:


> EV wannabe's
> 
> Cheers.


hahahaha!! who are you again???


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

LiFe said:


> You may have even known these prismatic cells were on allocation to automotive OEM's, unavailable to EV wannabe's with a fistfull of cash, no matter how cool they were.
> 
> 
> Cheers.


It's an interesting business practice to not sell your product to people who want to buy it. Ibatt is the same way. Seems to be a recurring theme with American companies, yet the Chinese are happy to take our money. Any wonder why our manufacturing base is shrinking and theirs is growing?


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## dimitri (May 16, 2008)

JRP3 said:


> Any wonder why our manufacturing base is shrinking and theirs is growing?


I think LiFe made it pretty clear, American companies are worried that customers will set their pants on fire using their product, so they will need to also cover the cost of new pants and feed lawyers from both sides. Meanwhile Chinese are happy to do business and not worry about lawyers or their customer's pants.

You can certainly see some valid arguments from both sides of these business models. A123 built a strong brand, which costs a lot these days and they want to protect it by not selling on the street and then having YouTube full of videos of people setting their pants on fire and blaming the cells. Rotten media outlets will help spreading the story of bad bad lithium batteries, putting them next to terrorists, trying to blow up airplanes.

I'm not defending A123, but I can certainly see their point in the world of rotten media, bloodsucking lawyers and degenerate politicians.


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## jeremyjs (Sep 22, 2010)

Couldn't they just require a signed waiver if they sold bare cells? Just have lawyers write it up so for liable for anything involving "setting your pants on fire" through misuse they're covered legally? So long as they protect themselves legally and make the end user well aware of the potential dangers of stringing a whole bunch of them together in a high voltage pack I really don't see the problem. I mean it's not like they're any more dangerous than capacitors; which are pretty easy to get a hold of. Heck on your average day a person isn't any more than a few screws away from capacitors capable of lighting them up if they're tinkering and incautious.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Dimitri,
The problem is that people can and do buy A123 cells in Dewalt battery packs and then proceed to hack them up and use them anyway. Just by selling the product A123 is opened up to liability, it's a sad but real part of business. One could argue that by not selling the product through dealers with some active support and guidance they are at greater risk of product misuse and damage through hacked packs. Instead of waiting around for OEM's to come knocking, and demand lower per unit pricing, they could be selling a good number of units to hobbyists through dealers.


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## Nathan219 (May 18, 2010)

Who needs A123? Unless you need a short range Electric vehicle or a drag racer A123 cells aren’t really the answer. Sure they are great at supplying huge currents, but to have a meaningful range you need to have big number of KWhs and a pack with enough KWhs has more Current potential than is useable. A123 is sold on setting its self up to fail by only selling to the OEMs with I am guessing a 1% profit margin. What happens when US manufactures cancel their electric car programs again? I guess we will be scouting the junk yards looking for wrecked Leafs and Volts at scrap prices. Until then we will keep driving our 200+ mile range, 0-60 under 9 seconds, 130 mph, pure electric 4pasenger car with a trailer hitch.


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## jeremyjs (Sep 22, 2010)

Nathan219 said:


> Who needs A123? Unless you need a short range Electric vehicle or a drag racer A123 cells aren’t really the answer. Sure they are great at supplying huge currents, but to have a meaningful range you need to have big number of KWhs and a pack with enough KWhs has more Current potential than is useable. A123 is sold on setting its self up to fail by only selling to the OEMs with I am guessing a 1% profit margin. What happens when US manufactures cancel their electric car programs again? I guess we will be scouting the junk yards looking for wrecked Leafs and Volts at scrap prices. Until then we will keep driving our 200+ mile range, 0-60 under 9 seconds, 130 mph, pure electric 4pasenger car with a trailer hitch.


I'd be willing to bet we're pushing towards electric for good now. It was one thing when oil was cheap and looked like it was going to be cheap forever. Now anyone who's been paying attention and even those who don't realize that it's only going to be relatively cheap as long as the economy is in the crapper. Once usage goes up a little the price will shoot through the roof again.


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## dimitri (May 16, 2008)

However, I would totally agree with "who needs A123" attitude. If you need high discharge rates and have money to pay for it, there must be other alternative. BMI comes to mind, their sales rep is always lurking on this forum, I'm sure he'll be eager to help.

I was not defending A123 in my presious post, just playing devil's advocate for a moment. I still think its wrong not to sell the product to anyone who wants to buy it, its against principles of capitalism.


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## jeremyjs (Sep 22, 2010)

The silly thing is A123 has yet to post a profit. You'd think they'd be wanting to sell to anyone who was willing to pay.


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