# [EVDL] Nickel Iron batteries



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Okay, I am back with more questions.

I found a supplier for the Potassium Hydroxide solution that I need to
recharge these unused but old batteries.
Now we have discovered another problem.

These batteries are sealed. The old solution in the batteries has
crystallized.

We cannot properly clean the batteries or even put new solution in them
without drilling holes in them. Once we do that, of course, we need to find
a way of capping the holes..

What does one do?
(I didn't work on this, but we took it to an electrical guy to work on, and
this is what he told me)

Werner
-- 
********************************************
www.westmountparkchurch.org
www.thesummitchurch.ca
********************************************

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Can you post pics somewhere? I've never seen any that were sealed, unless
they are not flooded Nickle Iron batteries, but something else. Doesn't
mean they don't exist though...

Z



> Werner Peters <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> > Okay, I am back with more questions.
> >
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

No pics at present. I will have at the end of the day though.

I called Eagle Picher, the maker of these batteries, and they would
not?could not connect me with anyone who could advise me on these batteries.
They said, "There is no one in the company that still knows anything about
those batteries."

Course, this was a receptionist.. grrr.

Werner





> Zeke Yewdall <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> > Can you post pics somewhere? I've never seen any that were sealed, unless
> > they are not flooded Nickle Iron batteries, but something else. Doesn't
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

I have all 28 batteries in my possession now (whew!).

The batteries aree solid white halfwa up the walls of the batteries. I will
post a couple pictures.

yI hope distilled water will dissolve this stuff.. I imagine this is simple
solid crystallized potassium hydroxide and the water simply evaporated. If I
cannot get this stuff out, I am euchred.

Werner





> Peter VanDerWal <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> > >
> > > --- On Mon, 7/14/08, Werner Peters <[email protected]> wrote:
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Just a bit of warning... adding water to any solid hydroxide produces 
a strong exothermic reaction! Just be careful.




> Werner Peters wrote:
> 
> > I have all 28 batteries in my possession now (whew!).
> >
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Those appear to be the batteries used in a Dodge
TEVan.
I had NiCd's in my van, but developed the charge
algorithm for both NiFe and NiCd while working at GE
and driving both types of battery technology.
Do you also have the Dodge TEVan?
Rod
TEVan and other EV's
http://picasaweb.google.com/rodnhower/ElectricVehicle



> --- Werner Peters <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> > Pictures of batteries in question are posted
> >
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Okay, I now have 29 Eagle-Picher FeNi (or NiFe) 6 volt batteries sitting on
a pallet in my garage. It looks like every one of them is solid crystal
inside. See the link to pictures that I posted in an earlier post.

It didn't take much distilled water to fill them to overflowing through the
hydration ports. So they are not sealed batteries in that sense. No obvious
exothermic reaction.. no heat, no smoke..

It was suggested to me that I fill them with distilled water and put the
charger to them to break up the crystallization. I will have to wait till I
can get my hands on the charger..

Werner

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Hmmmm. If that is dried KOH in there, it should have reacted rather
violently to having water put in it. Very strange....



> Werner Peters <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> > Okay, I now have 29 Eagle-Picher FeNi (or NiFe) 6 volt batteries sitting on
> > a pallet in my garage. It looks like every one of them is solid crystal
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Yeah.. I took some of the dry crusty stuff that was hanging out of one of
the ports and dropped it in water, It partially dissolved and made the water
murky, but it happened very slowly.. no violent reaction whatsoever.

Werner



> Zeke Yewdall <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> > Hmmmm. If that is dried KOH in there, it should have reacted rather
> > violently to having water put in it. Very strange....
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

My guess is that it's potassium carbonate, formed when the electrolyte 
attracts CO2 from the air. Probably the venting system was left open to the 
atmosphere. Try washing it out with distilled water. You may have to soak 
it for a while.

David Roden
EVDL Administrator
http://www.evdl.org/



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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> "Zeke Yewdall" <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> >Hmmmm. If that is dried KOH in there, it should have reacted rather
> >violently to having water put in it. Very strange....
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

yeah.... sounds like it could have been carbonated. That's typically what
happens to kill flooded alkaline batteries over time is carbonation of the
electrolyte, though I've never seen one dried out after being carbonated.
If you can get all the old carbonation off you might be able to put new good
electrolyte in there and bring it back to life, but I really don't know.

Z



> Neon John <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> > On Mon, 14 Jul 2008 14:41:53 -0600, "Zeke Yewdall" <[email protected]>
> > wrote:
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

The saga continues. I phoned the company BeUtilityFree, and talked to
someone there about NiFe batterires. Apparently they are the only company in
the U.S. that still make them.

He had no clue about what happens when the batteries are exposed to air. He
said that if it was Potassium Hydroxide that had solidified, the batteries
could be brought back..

But he didn't know how to advise me with this problem. He thinks they might
be toast.

Every couple of hours I go and add some more distilled water till they
overflow. So it is soaking into the white stuff. Hopefully it will soften
enough to be able to flush that stuff out. Any chemists out there who can
give me hope?
29 batteries at $10 a piece if I can make them work.

If not, a sad trip to the recycling station.

Werner



> Zeke Yewdall <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> > yeah.... sounds like it could have been carbonated. That's typically what
> > happens to kill flooded alkaline batteries over time is carbonation of the
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

It definitely is not just crystalized KOH. It would have reacted with 
the water. What is the chemistry of the NiFe batteries? Is the 
electrolyte KOH?



> Werner Peters wrote:
> 
> > Yeah.. I took some of the dry crusty stuff that was hanging out of
> > one of
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

All that have mentioned that it isn't KOH are correct, the reaction would be
exothermic. If the battery didn't heat up then there was probably little to
no KOH left to react. Use a pH indicator (phenolphthalein will turn purple
in the present of a strong base such as KOH; tumeric will work also, you may
have some in the spice rack of your kitchen) to see what you have. You may
have some salts of potassium present such as KxOy along with carbonate. I
don't know what the solubilities are to recommend a solvent, but you can
look them up (wiki undoubtedly has something on solubilities of these two
compounds). It is far better to be a white participant than black or red.
I sorta suspect that if you fill them with some KOH, charge, drain, refill
and charge they'll be ok. If they don't take a charge at all ... then you
can call them toast (I'd love to tell you they're toast and to send them to
me for disposal!). Did you obtain your KOH yet? Powder or solution? It
would be interesting to react some of the residue with some KOH and some
H2SO4; if it's carbonate it will bubble like mad with the sulfuric acid as
CO2 is given off. Good luck with 'em, if you get tired of messing with them
let me know!

Ralph.



> Werner Peters <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> > The saga continues. I phoned the company BeUtilityFree, and talked to
> > someone there about NiFe batterires. Apparently they are the only company
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Werner Peters wrote:
> > Yeah.. I took some of the dry crusty stuff that was hanging out of one of
> > the ports and dropped it in water, It partially dissolved and made the water
> > murky, but it happened very slowly.. no violent reaction whatsoever.
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> On 15 Jul 2008 at 0:40, Christopher Zach wrote:
> 
> > Once fully charged, the batteries had the proper fluid.
> 
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

One thing not to do is add any kind of acid directly to the battery. 
It will destroy the anode. The slow dissolving method with just 
distilled or DI water is much better.



> R Patterson wrote:
> 
> > All that have mentioned that it isn't KOH are correct, the reaction
> > would be
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Werner Peters wrote:
> >
> >
> > What does one do?
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

You should be able to remove the old salts with applications of boiling 
water, dont add H2S04 or it will be curtains for the cells.
David
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "R Patterson" <[email protected]>
To: <[email protected]>; "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" 
<[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, July 15, 2008 12:02 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Nickel Iron batteries


> All that have mentioned that it isn't KOH are correct, the reaction would 
> be
> exothermic. If the battery didn't heat up then there was probably little 
> to
> no KOH left to react. Use a pH indicator (phenolphthalein will turn 
> purple
> in the present of a strong base such as KOH; tumeric will work also, you 
> may
> have some in the spice rack of your kitchen) to see what you have. You 
> may
> have some salts of potassium present such as KxOy along with carbonate. I
> don't know what the solubilities are to recommend a solvent, but you can
> look them up (wiki undoubtedly has something on solubilities of these two
> compounds). It is far better to be a white participant than black or red.
> I sorta suspect that if you fill them with some KOH, charge, drain, refill
> and charge they'll be ok. If they don't take a charge at all ... then you
> can call them toast (I'd love to tell you they're toast and to send them 
> to
> me for disposal!). Did you obtain your KOH yet? Powder or solution? It
> would be interesting to react some of the residue with some KOH and some
> H2SO4; if it's carbonate it will bubble like mad with the sulfuric acid as
> CO2 is given off. Good luck with 'em, if you get tired of messing with 
> them
> let me know!
>
> Ralph.
>
> On Mon, Jul 14, 2008 at 8:07 PM, Werner Peters <[email protected]> 
> wrote:
>
>> The saga continues. I phoned the company BeUtilityFree, and talked to
>> someone there about NiFe batterires. Apparently they are the only company
>> in
>> the U.S. that still make them.
>>
>> He had no clue about what happens when the batteries are exposed to air. 
>> He
>> said that if it was Potassium Hydroxide that had solidified, the 
>> batteries
>> could be brought back..
>>
>> But he didn't know how to advise me with this problem. He thinks they 
>> might
>> be toast.
>>
>> Every couple of hours I go and add some more distilled water till they
>> overflow. So it is soaking into the white stuff. Hopefully it will 
>> soften
>> enough to be able to flush that stuff out. Any chemists out there who can
>> give me hope?
>> 29 batteries at $10 a piece if I can make them work.
>>
>> If not, a sad trip to the recycling station.
>>
>> Werner
>>
>>


> Zeke Yewdall <[email protected]> wrote:
> >>
> >> > yeah.... sounds like it could have been carbonated. That's typically
> >> what
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Status update on the NiFe batts:

We got power!

We put a volt meter on a battery that I had only topped off with distilled
water and hadn't charged yet and it shows 6.5 volts.

we put a small hub motor on it and it ran down very quickly. Charged it up
with a trickle setting, and did that 2 or three times, before we realized..
we should be timing the discharges to see if we are getting improvement.
Next time.

But I am excited that they are not entirely dead.
Werner

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

On Tue, 15 Jul 2008 21:39:03 -0400, "Werner Peters" <[email protected]>


> wrote:
> 
> >Allright.. sorry for flooding the board. Okay, I'm not sorry. I am excited
> >though.
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Here is a link to some info about NiFe batteries from a company which
imports them:

http://www.beutilityfree.com/content/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=106:Ni-FeFAQ&catid=42:Nickel-Iron%20Batteries

http://tinyurl.com/6m9rvj

HTH
-- 
David D. Nelson

http://evalbum.com/1328


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Just in case no one posted this link, here is a scanned booklet on care and 
feeding of Edison's batteries.
http://web.archive.org/web/20041012143321/home.cybertron.com/~edurand/Otherstuff/otherstuff.html
__________
Andre' B. Clear Lake, Wi.



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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Neon John wrote:
> > On Tue, 15 Jul 2008 21:39:03 -0400, "Werner Peters" <[email protected]>
> > wrote:
> >
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> On 16 Jul 2008 at 7:08, Andre' Blanchard wrote:
> 
> > Just in case no one posted this link, here is a scanned booklet on care and
> > feeding of Edison's batteries.
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

OK, you guys are going to hate me for this, but I had to commit battery
genocide. With one battery.
I had to know what I was dealing with. I couldn't stand the guessing game
and the many contingency suggestions and warnings that were coming my way.
(i.e. if this, then do a, b and c.., but if not then, etc..)

So I cut a battery open. Here is the picture.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/2675165409/

I have learned a big lesson. Never jump to conclusions without verification.

We assumed the worst: i.e. massive crystallization of the electrolyte. the
plastic battery walls were white colored 3/4 way up the sides, and 2 of the
batteries had some crusty white stuff plugging the hydration ports. SO, I
(and a few folks who were with me) assumed that the white was an indication
of solid crystallization, or at least a semi-solid pasty goop, because we
saw no liquid.

Well, the plastic walls WERE white and the top 1/3 of the walls were
discolored black on the inside!

And there was no crystallization evident to the naked eye. The plates were
as clean as can be. I could hardly believe my eyes.

White milky fluid did flow when I turned the battery on its head, but no
solid crystals. I hosed that alkaline down to a harmless status. it smelled
like wet gyproc walls.

Also, the white spots you see in the pics are white pieces of plastic from
cutting it open, not crystals.

And the battery that I am charging is getting stronger. The motor has been
runnig for 4 hours on 1 charge.

I am quite relieved. Losing one battery was worth it. I am buying these
babies.

Werner








> EVDL Administrator <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> > On 16 Jul 2008 at 7:08, Andre' Blanchard wrote:
> >
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

No, what I hate is the presumptions that flowed on this topic. Caused 
a battery to die and others to be unsure. This is what is caused by 
misinformation and pure speculation. Speculation from those who know 
nothing can be very dangerous.

I am glad to hear that the batteries are fine. I am on the hunt for 
some for our solar backup. I hope to find some old ones that someone 
may think is dead and wants to sell for a cheap price. I'd love to 
find a deal like you have found.

Pete





> Werner Peters wrote:
> 
> > OK, you guys are going to hate me for this, but I had to commit
> > battery
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

On Wed, 16 Jul 2008 13:16:32 -0400, "EVDL Administrator" <[email protected]>


> wrote:
> 
> 
> >Thanks for posting that, Andre'. However, that source is missing one of the
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

What the disadvantage of using NiFe batteries compared to lead?



> <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> > No, what I hate is the presumptions that flowed on this topic. Caused
> > a battery to die and others to be unsure. This is what is caused by
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

On Wed, 16 Jul 2008 21:19:18 -0400, "Werner Peters" <[email protected]>


> wrote:
> 
> >OK, you guys are going to hate me for this, but I had to commit battery
> >genocide. With one battery.
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Werner Peters wrote:
> > OK, you guys are going to hate me for this, but I had to commit battery
> > genocide. With one battery.
> Ah well. Sometimes we learn by doing.
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

eh ... depends upon who you talk to and the environment/application they are
used in. An obvious limitation is the temperature operating range, at lower
temps the batteries can be sluggish; weight to energy/power for some is
limiting.



> m gol <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> > What the disadvantage of using NiFe batteries compared to lead?
> >
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> m gol wrote:
> > What the disadvantage of using NiFe batteries compared to lead?
> 
> NiFe (Edison) cells are nickel based, and so are similar to nicads and
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> > m gol wrote:
> >> What the disadvantage of using NiFe batteries compared to lead?
> -snip-
> > The bad points are:
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Are weights the same similar to lead?
or do the 1.2v per cell mean more material?





> Lee Hart wrote:
> >
> > m gol wrote:
> >> What the disadvantage of using NiFe batteries compared to lead?
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> m gol wrote:
> >>> What the disadvantage of using NiFe batteries compared to lead?
> >> The bad points are:
> >
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> AMPrentice wrote:
> > Are weights the same similar to lead?
> > or do the 1.2v per cell mean more material?
> 
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

On the Eagle Picher brochure, it says,

*The Nickel Iron battery can be charged with your current lead acid battery
charger with only minor modifications. Or you may be interested in the quick
charging capabilities available with a new charger manufactured especially
for nickel iron batteries.*

Can anyone explain what these 'minor modifications' might be, and (this is a
long shot) does anyone have a made-for-nickel-iron battery charger in their
attics or garages?

Werner








> Lee Hart <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> > AMPrentice wrote:
> > > Are weights the same similar to lead?
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> On 17 Jul 2008 at 10:21, Werner Peters wrote:
> 
> > Can anyone explain what these 'minor modifications' might be, and (this is a
> > long shot) does anyone have a made-for-nickel-iron battery charger in their
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> On 17 Jul 2008 at 9:13, Lee Hart wrote:
> 
> > The Eagle Picher nickel-iron batteries (used in the TEVan) were about
> > the same physical size as a lead-acid golf cart battery, but delivered
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

So yesterday at 5 PM, I attached a motor to my newly charged NiFe battery.

The motor is apparently 280 W.

This morning, the motor is still going.

I left for the office.
At noon, I peek in the garage. The motor is STILL TURNING! But at a very
very slow rate.

The fellow who lent me the motor is astounded.

Werner



On Thu, Jul 17, 2008 at 12:08 PM, EVDL Administrator <[email protected]>


> wrote:
> 
> > On 17 Jul 2008 at 9:13, Lee Hart
> 
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> you wrote:
> 
> >Pictures of batteries in question are posted
> >
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

What's written on the motor is not representative of how much it is
consuming, that is load dependent. Put a multimeter in series with the
load and record the amps every hour or so. Integrate the result to get
an idea of capacity. You might want to go with a bigger load though so
you don't have to get up every hour to record the data.






> Werner Peters <[email protected]> wrote:
> > So yesterday at 5 PM, I attached a motor to my newly charged NiFe battery.
> >
> > The motor is apparently 280 W.
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

There are loads of information about NiFe batteries out there. Just the 
other day I was looking at a book from the Edison battery company (which 
invented them!) The book discussed their characteristics at extreme 
length, including their hardiness to abuse. I found it on Google Books.

It made pretty clear that you can't destroy them, and how to resolve 
problems you might have. It wasn't the only book on the subject in 
Google Books.

If this was 1930, you'd have loads of help. But in modern days, asking 
lead-acid people about NiFe battery care is like asking dog owners how 
to care for a goldfish.

That's what killed WRM's electric locomotive Kennecott Copper 700. It 
was built with 12 tons of NiFe's and could run for *days* away from the 
trolley wire. In the 1960s sometime, the owners got confused about how 
to maintain the NiFe pack, and just tore it out and put in lead-acids. 
10 years later that pack pooped out on them, so they gave 'em to us.

Robert


[email protected] wrote:
> No, what I hate is the presumptions that flowed on this topic. Caused 
> a battery to die and others to be unsure. This is what is caused by 
> misinformation and pure speculation. Speculation from those who know 
> nothing can be very dangerous.
> 
> I am glad to hear that the batteries are fine. I am on the hunt for 
> some for our solar backup. I hope to find some old ones that someone 
> may think is dead and wants to sell for a cheap price. I'd love to 
> find a deal like you have found.


> Pete
> 
> 
> 
>


> Werner Peters wrote:
> >
> >> OK, you guys are going to hate me for this, but I had to commit
> >> battery
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Are NiFe so expensive that they cant be budget for compared to Lead?
What would say these Eagle Picher NiFe batteries cost as used in the TEVan?

Also what stops the Fe from corroding? Has any other company tried to use
an alternative to Fe for better gains? eg. copper alloys or other alloys
etc?

The population that travel no more than 40-50mph per day could use these 
things without ever having to buy batteries again.




> Lee Hart wrote:
> >
> > AMPrentice wrote:
> >> Are weights the same similar to lead?
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> So yesterday at 5 PM, I attached a motor to my newly charged NiFe battery.
>
> The motor is apparently 280 W.
>
> This morning, the motor is still going.
>
> I left for the office.
> At noon, I peek in the garage. The motor is STILL TURNING! But at a very
> very slow rate.
>
> The fellow who lent me the motor is astounded.
>
> Werner

But what is its unloaded rating?


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> AMPrentice wrote:
> > Are NiFe so expensive that they can't be budget for compared to Lead?
> > What would say these Eagle Picher NiFe batteries cost as used in the
> > TEVan?
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

The Evdl Admin wrote -

> Anyway, if you can read well commented assembler, grab Rod's source here.
>
>
> http://www.evdl.org/docs/ep_nife.pdf

It is actually here
http://www.evdl.org/docs/tevan_nibatt.zip

Admin's link was for the Nickel Iron Batts

Rush
Tucson, AZ
2000 Insight, 62lmpg, #4965
www.ironandwood.org
www.Airphibian.com
www.TEVA2.com 


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

No idea.

WP



> > The fellow who lent me the motor is astounded.
> >
> > Werner
>
> But what is its unloaded rating?
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> For general EVDL support, see http://evdl.org/help/
> For subscription options, see http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>
>


-- 
********************************************
www.westmountparkchurch.org
www.thesummitchurch.ca
********************************************

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Lee, you just reminded me again why its a crazy and ridiculous world we live
in.
Now I hope that there is another Nickel battery possible from another
company
that doesnt sell out or is bought by another Oil conglomerate.




> Lee Hart wrote:
> >
> > AMPrentice wrote:
> >> Are NiFe so expensive that they can't be budget for compared to Lead?
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Actually, it's been mentioned on this list before.. there is a company still
producing NiFe..

http://www.beutilityfree.com/content/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=44&Itemid=129&2d2032cd2ecb66e70133da726df4f0c0=9563376df794b959ab130d13799a5793
Apparently the only place you can get 'em in the USA.

I don't know how expensive they are.


Werner



> AMPrentice <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> >
> > Lee, you just reminded me again why its a crazy and ridiculous world we
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Utility Free doesn't actually produce them, but imports them (from either
china, or eastern europe, it says on their website, but I can't remember
right now). They also have a price sheet on the website, for 12 and 24 volt
systems. For EV voltage systems, I think you just add them together, but
not sure if the price will come down any for 100 cells, vs 10 or 20 cells.

Z

On 7/18/08, Werner Peters <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> Actually, it's been mentioned on this list before.. there is a company
> still
> producing NiFe..
>
>
> http://www.beutilityfree.com/content/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=44&Itemid=129&2d2032cd2ecb66e70133da726df4f0c0=9563376df794b959ab130d13799a5793
> Apparently the only place you can get 'em in the USA.
>
> I don't know how expensive they are.
>
>
>
> Werner
>
>
>


> AMPrentice <[email protected]> wrote:
> >
> > >
> > > Lee, you just reminded me again why its a crazy and ridiculous world we
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

wow...$8400 for 24V 610 AH....$50,400 for a 144V pack....

> Utility Free doesn't actually produce them, but imports them (from either
> china, or eastern europe, it says on their website, but I can't remember
> right now). They also have a price sheet on the website, for 12 and 24 volt
> systems. For EV voltage systems, I think you just add them together, but
> not sure if the price will come down any for 100 cells, vs 10 or 20 cells.

-- 
lyn williams <[email protected]>


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----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Ouch! $1,680 for a 24V 122AH (at the 100hr discharge rate!) battery.

And look at the one hour discharge curve. Something seems a bit wrong
with it because the curve bends around and starts going negative in time,
but...
Assuming it's more or less accurate a 120V pack of these discharged at the
one hour rate would start at around 100V and drop like a stone to 50 or 60
volts. That is some serious voltage sag.
Doesn't sound like something I'd like to drive.

A pack of these that is comparable in weight to a 120V pack of T-105s will
only provide approx 8kwh(1 hr rate) vs 11.5kwh from the PbA, and they'd
cost almost $10,000, probably over that once you add shipping.

If you tried to get these up to highway speed, you'd only get maybe 30
miles range. With the voltage sagging down to ~70V, it's be kinda tough
on the motor and controller (over 200 amps battery side to maintain
highway speed)

LiPol looks pretty good (price and performance) compared to these

Apparently the Eagle Picher batteries are significantly different to
these. These don't look like viable EV candidates even if they do last 40
years.

> Utility Free doesn't actually produce them, but imports them (from either
> china, or eastern europe, it says on their website, but I can't remember
> right now). They also have a price sheet on the website, for 12 and 24
> volt
> systems. For EV voltage systems, I think you just add them together, but
> not sure if the price will come down any for 100 cells, vs 10 or 20 cells.
>
> Z
>
> On 7/18/08, Werner Peters <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>> Actually, it's been mentioned on this list before.. there is a company
>> still
>> producing NiFe..
>>
>>
>> http://www.beutilityfree.com/content/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=44&Itemid=129&2d2032cd2ecb66e70133da726df4f0c0=9563376df794b959ab130d13799a5793
>> Apparently the only place you can get 'em in the USA.
>>
>> I don't know how expensive they are.
>>
>>
>>
>> Werner
>>
>>
>>


> AMPrentice <[email protected]> wrote:
> >>
> >> >
> >> > Lee, you just reminded me again why its a crazy and ridiculous world
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> wow...$8400 for 24V 610 AH....$50,400 for a 144V pack....
>
A 144V pack of 610 AH batteries would weigh almost 6,000 lbs. What are
you planning on converting, a Dump Truck?


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----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

The batteries on that site are obviously meant for PV systems, not evs.




> Peter VanDerWal <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> > > wow...$8400 for 24V 610 AH....$50,400 for a 144V pack....
> > >
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Unimog !  remember that discussion from last fall sometime?

Z



> Peter VanDerWal <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> > > wow...$8400 for 24V 610 AH....$50,400 for a 144V pack....
> > >
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Obviously. If you look at the other site I referenced, that had specs of
all the different flooded NiCad batteries, you notice that they have low
rate, medium rate, and high rate batteries, depending on application --
backup power... or starting 20 cylinder diesel engines in locomotives...
NiFe are likely the same way, and it looks like they are selling the low
rate ones -- no good for EV's 

Z


On Fri, Jul 18, 2008 at 10:28 AM, Werner Peters <[email protected]>


> wrote:
> 
> > The batteries on that site are obviously meant for PV systems, not evs.
> >
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

nah...just running the numbers on an RV.....

> > wow...$8400 for 24V 610 AH....$50,400 for a 144V pack....
> >
> A 144V pack of 610 AH batteries would weigh almost 6,000 lbs. What are
> you planning on converting, a Dump Truck?

-- 
lyn williams <[email protected]>


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For subscription options, see http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

On Fri, 18 Jul 2008 08:58:14 -0400, "Werner Peters" <[email protected]>


> wrote:
> 
> >Actually, it's been mentioned on this list before.. there is a company still
> >producing NiFe..
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> On 17 Jul 2008 at 18:13, Rush wrote:
> 
> > It is actually here
> > http://www.evdl.org/docs/tevan_nibatt.zip
> ...


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