# Zilla controller production shutting down



## linz (May 18, 2008)

See below-

http://www.cafeelectricpress.com/blog/?cat=2

Zilla controller production is shutting down. They say that there will be "limited window" for last orders. If anyone is planning to buy one, sooner might be better than later. Production may or may not restart under license in future.


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## Hadleigh Reid (Jul 22, 2008)

Stink, i just ordered one. Hopefully someone will get in there and sort it out


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## locost_bryan (Aug 18, 2008)

Hadleigh Reid said:


> Stink, i just ordered one. Hopefully someone will get in there and sort it out


If you've ordered one, you're fine.  Anyone thinking about getting one, better get onto it pronto.


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## linz (May 18, 2008)

So this just leaves Zapi H3 and Logisystems for DC (series) controllers rated over 500A?

List of logisystems stuff here- http://www.grassrootsev.com/control.htm
(fairly new to the market, but ev specific)
Zapi http://www.electrofit-zapi.com/hfsermotor.htm
(built for low-speed industrial vehicles, regen has been problematic for ev)


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## linz (May 18, 2008)

Also a Kelly controllers 120V 800A http://www.kellycontroller.com/shop/?mod=cat&cat_id=34,33 (ZAPI is also 120V 800A)


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## Jens Rekker (Oct 26, 2007)

Hi Linz

The Kelly controllers should be considered "on probation" until they prove themselves more (at someone else's cost ...). I was initially very hopeful of the new entrant Kelly controller when they came out. ZEVA offerred the 144A 500A Kelly for series wound DC motors earlier this year. Then I noticed that ZEVA withdrew ("discontinued") the Kelly 144V 500A line. I didn't get an answer to specific questions to Ian Hooper of ZEVA on the reasons for the change (which was perhaps badly asked by me since it was on a public Australian EVA listserver discussion). Then I read Ian's account of finishing his EV MX5 sportscar and his comment that he substituted the Kelly with a Curtis 1231C because the the Kelly was "hopelessly under-powered". I also read that the 500A rating is not continuous and good for a number of seconds, while the continuous current rating is only 250A. Makes the Curtis look quite grunty by comparison. I wonder if the same limitation applies to the 800A model? It would be very limiting and wouldn't achieve the aim of breaking out of the 500A straight-jacket if that were the case.

Ian Hooper is slowly developing his own DC controller. In the past he indicated that his controller would have a rating of about 800A. More recent comments have tended to slide back a little towards a rating more in line with those of the Curtis 1231C.

I think that we definitely need a high current controller option. I am driving in Dunedin hills and see my battery current swing into the +400A territory when accelerating uphill even with a pack voltage of 144V nominal. I would love to have some more top-end current capacity for acceleration. We have more and steeper hills than continental countries like US and UK, so the controllers that they might be happy with over there are a bit anaemic in NZ cities. Even with a higher rated controller, the load on the battery of +500A currents is opposed by significant internal resistence effects of flooded lead-acid batteries such as mine. If you go to Absorbed Glass Mat batteries (AGMs such as Optimas and Orbitals), then you get much better current parameters but pay with both higher purchase cost and shorter cycle life.

I also wonder if this is another factor that will push us towards AC conversions. In the past we have had a fairly negative / blinkered view of AC gear cost arising from the 'Metric Mind effect' (Metric Mind sells AC kits of high quality and stupendously high cost). Things are definitely on the change with the first NZ conversion using an industrial Variable Frequency Drive and induction motor in Ashburton under way by Graeme Church and some commercial AC gear coming in at more reasonable prices. My point is that AC conversions are more flexible in accepting higher DC voltages and currents than the presently available DC controllers. If the availability of DC controllers with NZ-friendly current ratings becomes a bottleneck, then there will be an impetus pushing us to explore the AC option more thoroughly. One additional benefit of the AC drives are that the current loading on the battery string is lighter than DC controllers.


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## saab96 (Mar 19, 2008)

Not a lot of people talk about the Solectria AC systems, though. Seems like these aren't THAT much more expensive than a top of the line Zilla DC system that many people have.


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## carrott (Aug 19, 2008)

Jens Rekker said:


> Even with a higher rated controller, the load on the battery of +500A currents is opposed by significant internal resistence effects of flooded lead-acid batteries such as mine.


I'd be careful with pulling 500A from 6 volt golf cart batteries on a regular basis. My understanding is they don't like it very much and die an early death. A controller with a higher motor current limit will reduce the need to change gear, but even a 500A Curtis is enough to damage golf cart batteries if you ask for too much battery current for too long.

Motor current is roughly proportional to torque
Battery current is roughly proportional to power



Jens Rekker said:


> I also wonder if this is another factor that will push us towards AC conversions. In the past we have had a fairly negative / blinkered view of AC gear cost arising from the 'Metric Mind effect' (Metric Mind sells AC kits of high quality and stupendously high cost). Things are definitely on the change with the first NZ conversion using an industrial Variable Frequency Drive and induction motor in Ashburton under way by Graeme Church and some commercial AC gear coming in at more reasonable prices.


I'd be interested in comparing the performance and lifetime of an industrial drive with my Siemens system. Does Graeme have blog or a website? I also have a friend who is looking for a controller to drive a 5kW PMAC motor, he's used a industrial BLDC drive but it causes a lot of vibration.


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## linz (May 18, 2008)

I did wonder how much current a lead-acid battery could handle. How about reducing either the total power required by down-sizing the vehicle to a compact (removing the rear seats) or reducing (battery) current with parallel strings somehow protecting against current loops and fault shorts? 

The AC option shoulds really interesting, how easy is it to adapt to an ev application, and hows the efficiency of an induction motor (eddy current losses?)


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## carrott (Aug 19, 2008)

linz said:


> I did wonder how much current a lead-acid battery could handle. How about reducing either the total power required by down-sizing the vehicle to a compact (removing the rear seats) or reducing (battery) current with parallel strings somehow protecting against current loops and fault shorts?


Sure, the lighter the vehicle the less power you need for the same performance.

To increase the power available from a particular battery type you need more battery. You can either get the same number of bigger batteries, more of the same in series, buddy pairs or parallel strings. Since you've got more batteries, your performance is reduced because you have more weight. I'm not sure when or if diminishing returns sets in.

More of the same in series is a problem for the Curtis controllers as I believe the highest voltage model is 144V nominal. From what I've read, it's not particularly reliable if you use it at that voltage either.

If you want lots of power you really don't want to use golf cart batteries. I understand they are good for about 3-4kW each. If you've got 10 of them you shouldn't really pull more than 40kW, and if you've got a few minutes of hill climb at full power, I'd ask for a safe maximum power from someone more knowledgeable than I.



linz said:


> The AC option shoulds really interesting, how easy is it to adapt to an ev application, and hows the efficiency of an induction motor (eddy current losses?)


Efficiency will depend on the motor & VFD you use. If you operate it near the nameplate specs, you ought to get close to the nameplate efficiency.


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## linz (May 18, 2008)

There are perhaps three issues for hill-climbing performance-
1) power to weight ratio of total vehicle, so for a given battery type the most that can be safely installed. The total size of the vehicle should not matter, the proportion of battery weight:total weight does.
2) The max Volts*Amps of the controller.
3) The max Volts*Amps a battery type can deliver

As 2) decreases the total vehicle size decreases. The suitability of a type of vechicle for modification maximises 1) and budget determines 3) for a given size of vehicle.
(if only designing to meet min requirement of making it up a local towns hills)
So I was thinking to meet these take a suitable small vehicle, load it up safely with FLA or AGM along with a standard controller.
The trade-off is that the design will be tilted towards performance and range will be less than ideal.


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## EnergyOfOne (Jul 23, 2008)

Stare clear of Kelly controllers their circuitry are sealed. They are throw away at failure, they can not be repaired.

For DIY types you can build your own. A rough estimate of part cost - under $300 NZ 

500amp water cooled speed controller 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qgoc4MwsukM

Further on in his videos he talks about offering a kit for about $200 US -this video here?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hN1BA...eature=related

Over 50 videos


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## Hemon Dey (Jul 31, 2008)

Jens Rekker said:


> I also wonder if this is another factor that will push us towards AC conversions. In the past we have had a fairly negative / blinkered view of AC gear cost arising from the 'Metric Mind effect' (Metric Mind sells AC kits of high quality and stupendously high cost). Things are definitely on the change with the first NZ conversion using an industrial Variable Frequency Drive and induction motor in Ashburton under way by Graeme Church and some commercial AC gear coming in at more reasonable prices. My point is that AC conversions are more flexible in accepting higher DC voltages and currents than the presently available DC controllers. If the availability of DC controllers with NZ-friendly current ratings becomes a bottleneck, then there will be an impetus pushing us to explore the AC option more thoroughly. One additional benefit of the AC drives are that the current loading on the battery string is lighter than DC controllers.


Jens,

Where would one go to get a reasonably priced industrial VFD controller? I take it these are mostly used for AC induction machines? Aren't synchronous and brushless DC motors easier to control? ie. no flux induction in the rotor to worry about? shouldn't this make them cheaper? Where then also do you go to get cheap industrial AC induction or synchronous motors? do you have a source in mind (2nd hand)? How much are these typically that will compare with what azure and metric mind have on offer?

Regards,
Hemon


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## linz (May 18, 2008)

Found an interesting discussion on VFD's here with a few guys that seem to know a thing or two-
http://www.eng-tips.com/viewthread.cfm?qid=135900&page=1


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## Jens Rekker (Oct 26, 2007)

Hi Hemon

Used induction motors come onto the market on a regular basis. Finding a cast-off induction motor shouldn't be the problem. They are used in hundreds of settings, usually with DOL or star-delta starter circuits. Occassionally, the VFD unit comes with an induction motor, or separately. It would probably help if you are in the trade, but there are also second-hand dealers that gut former factories and premises then on-sell the contents.

In Dunedin, Rietvelds is the main on-seller of industrial equipment. They won't give them away, but it should be a fraction of new purchase price. In NZ we also have a manufacturing capability in VFDs. The company used to be called PDL, but now goes by the name Schneider. Plants in Christchurch and Napier, I think still.

Graeme Church is / has bought his motor and VFD brand new and will priced the range already. Be worthwhile getting in contact with him directly.


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## Jens Rekker (Oct 26, 2007)

Something's going on at ZEVA (Ian Hooper's Zero Emission Vehicle Australia website and company; zeva.com.au).

The on-line store is selling down and out of the Kelly controllers that they had been carrying. It looks like Ian is discontinuing with Kelly. Ian has repeatedly said that the Kelly is grossly under-powered since fitting one to his MX5 (it barely pushed the thing along enough to break the city speed limit).

Second, Ian Hooper blew up the Curtis 1231C controller in his Mazda MX5 conversion. Somehow he should not have been too surprised since the MX5 is fitted with a powerful 9" DC series motor and it is direct coupled to the diff. Without the benefit of reduction gearing or gears the acceleration current on the controller must be pretty horrendous, quite a load on a 500A controller.

Third, the ZEVA brochures now show pictures of a green 600A ZEVA controller that Ian has been threatening to build for a few years.

Could this signal the release of Australiasia's very own "Zilla" version onto the market? Is Ian going to be the next Otmar?! I will be interested in the price point and how many Ian can produce once he finally does announce it.


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## carrott (Aug 19, 2008)

Jens Rekker said:


> Something's going on at ZEVA (Ian Hooper's Zero Emission Vehicle Australia website and company; zeva.com.au).
> 
> The on-line store is selling down and out of the Kelly controllers that they had been carrying. It looks like Ian is discontinuing with Kelly. Ian has repeatedly said that the Kelly is grossly under-powered since fitting one to his MX5 (it barely pushed the thing along enough to break the city speed limit).


The above sounds accurate for the "higher power" Kelly. The lower power versions may be somewhat more realistic in their ratings. See this post to the evtech mailing list for more Kelly Controller details. Unfortunately you have to be a member to see it.



Jens Rekker said:


> Second, Ian Hooper blew up the Curtis 1231C controller in his Mazda MX5 conversion. Somehow he should not have been too surprised since the MX5 is fitted with a powerful 9" DC series motor and it is direct coupled to the diff. Without the benefit of reduction gearing or gears the acceleration current on the controller must be pretty horrendous, quite a load on a 500A controller.


It was an 11" motor and it blew up because the Curtis design cannot handle a big motor turning slowly, not because the direct drive motor overheated the controller. See his report into the failure.



Jens Rekker said:


> Third, the ZEVA brochures now show pictures of a green 600A ZEVA controller that Ian has been threatening to build for a few years.


Got a link? I couldn't find anything beyond a rendering.



Jens Rekker said:


> Could this signal the release of Australiasia's very own "Zilla" version onto the market? Is Ian going to be the next Otmar?! I will be interested in the price point and how many Ian can produce once he finally does announce it.


I don't think ZEVA control is imminent, he's currently waiting for his own Zilla (see the evtech post above).


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## teddillard (Mar 25, 2011)

Just saw this thread... Zilla is back- see my post:
http://evmc2.wordpress.com/2011/03/25/zilla-is-back/


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## Nick Smith (Oct 26, 2007)

linz said:


> So this just leaves Zapi H3 and Logisystems for DC (series) controllers rated over 500A?
> 
> List of logisystems stuff here- http://www.grassrootsev.com/control.htm
> (fairly new to the market, but ev specific)
> ...


The Soliton1 is rated 1000A and then there is also the HPEVs 650A AC system, unfortunately only 120v nominal though. For a bit more money you can go with EvolveIT 75kW motor and controller (Siemens & RMS inverter) which does some decent torque up to 4000 rpm at 300v. AZD motor controller package is available ex Oz for about 12k (aud) but there is no canbus solution available to actually operate it. 

I didn't even know zapi was still available. I have only ever seen them mentioned on jerry halsteads site in regards to his first EVE project. As i recall he had much issue with the advertised but inoperable regen. I keep reading mixed reviews of the Kelly controllers but have nothing against them - in a golf cart.


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## nzev (Nov 20, 2008)

Why would anyone want a Zilla when you can buy a Soliton1????

Zilla's are over priced and are developed out of a computer Nerd's wet dream!!

Controlling up to 2000amps/360 volts via a telephone plug??? what planet was he on????


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## EVfun (Mar 14, 2010)

nzev said:


> Why would anyone want a Zilla when you can buy a Soliton1????
> 
> Zilla's are over priced and are developed out of a computer Nerd's wet dream!!
> 
> Controlling up to 2000amps/360 volts via a telephone plug??? what planet was he on????


2000 amps on demand

I don't know what the new prices will be but the old prices where $1900 (1000 amp up to 156 volts) to $5500 (2000 amps up to 360 volts.)

It's an ethernet cable (not ethernet communication though) and it separates the brains from the power section. The idea is that the brains can open the main contactor in the event the power section blows up or spews plasma. Some people have a habit of not following instructions. The phone cord is used with a standard adapter for serial port communication. It is only used for data output and programing. 

I like the new Soliton controllers but I have 2 of the Zillas and they work great. What is with the all the hate?


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## garyhgaryh (Feb 25, 2010)

EVfun said:


> 2000 amps on demand
> 
> I don't know what the new prices will be but the old prices where $1900 (1000 amp up to 156 volts) to $5500 (2000 amps up to 360 volts.)
> 
> ...



Lol, i was wondering about the telephone comment. You don't need 1 guage wire to send signals. Does this person really think 2000 amp is going through the telephone wire?


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## nzev (Nov 20, 2008)

hahaha, yes I know 2000amps is not going through the "telephone" plug and lead!
What environment is a controller subjected to??? 
Heat, Cold, moisture, Vibration........did I mention VIBRATION!!!
All of which is more than capable of making a crappy "Telephone" plug to become un-reliable and fail. 
Do you actually know what happens if 1x contact strips becomes disconnected in a Zilla, do the IGBT's go full ON or full OFF?? I'm not prepared to find out!
As far as I'm concerned the whole controller should be set in potting resin to protect itself from Vibration.
Most OEM components that live under the bonnet of a car are fully potted to protect them, sensitive components like the ECU live inside the cabin.
What connections are on the Hairball for people to connect to?? screw terminals! 
Do OEM's use "Telephone" plugs/leads to connect anything, would you connect a Hall Effect throttle with a "Telephone" plug?? 
You don't need to been a boffin to spot a BAD design flaw!


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## garyhgaryh (Feb 25, 2010)

nzev said:


> hahaha, yes I know 2000amps is not going through the "telephone" plug and lead!
> What environment is a controller subjected to???
> Heat, Cold, moisture, Vibration........did I mention VIBRATION!!!
> All of which is more than capable of making a crappy "Telephone" plug to become un-reliable and fail.
> ...


I'll have to respectfully disagree with your assessment on the reliability of telephone like plugs. 10BaseT/100BaseT/1000BaseT cables use a similar design and there is no issues. You only have issues if the plastic tab holding the two connections are broken, otherwise I don't think there is an issue. Are there other alternatives? yes. Better ones? Yes. Is the telephone plug type connectors reliable? Yes, esp if you use Gold plate connectors.
Gary


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## nzev (Nov 20, 2008)

A wall socket in a house, or a Computer yes......anywhere near a car?? NO! Dream on.......get typing yourself smart....


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## frodus (Apr 12, 2008)

Hmm, what's that on the side of the Soliton?

Screw terminals?
and.... what? 

An Ethernet Jack!


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## garyhgaryh (Feb 25, 2010)

nzev said:


> A wall socket in a house, or a Computer yes......anywhere near a car?? NO! Dream on.......get typing yourself smart....


Get typing youself smart?! 

I told you I respectfully disagree. I respect your opinion, but you are knocking my assessment? 

Phone jacks and ethernet jacks are used everywhere. Are you speaking from experience or from the lack of it? 

You laughed caused 2000 amp was being used in conjunction with what you called a "phone jack". I know what you're thinking, something as simple as a phone line or jack cannot be used with something as sophisticated as a ..... ahem..... motor controller..

Gary


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## EVfun (Mar 14, 2010)

Speaking of typing yourself smart...



nzev said:


> A wall socket in a house, or a Computer yes......anywhere near a car?? NO! Dream on.......get typing yourself smart....


Can you cite a Zilla failure to back up your assertion?


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## JRoque (Mar 9, 2010)

Hi. I've done Mil controls that used a standard RJ45 connector with an added rubber boot so the connector is fairly reliable.

From what I understand, the difference here between the Soliton controller and Zilla is that the Soliton is standalone while the Zilla has a hard dependency on the connection. If the plug on the Soliton fails, you don't get log data but on the Zilla it stops working, at best.

That said, I can't see how a simple strain relief loop tied to a nearby screw won't make it reliable enough. I would not use anything other than heavy gauge, shielded cables for that connection. A common phone cable is inadequate.

JR


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## nzev (Nov 20, 2008)

frodus said:


> Hmm, what's that on the side of the Soliton?
> 
> Screw terminals?
> and.... what?
> ...


Keep typing yourself smart! 

The Ethernet Socket on a Soliton is for configuration and logging only, 
The "Phone Jack" on a Zilla is the connection between the control and the
Power stage......


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## EVfun (Mar 14, 2010)

Keep typing yourself stupid.

No matter how many times you type "Phone Jack" the cable on the Zilla between the hairball and the power section is still an ethernet cable. Here is a picture of the cable shipped with the Zilla package. How many Zillas have you installed? I think you are the one trying to type yourself smart!


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## nzev (Nov 20, 2008)

EVfun said:


> Keep typing yourself stupid.
> 
> No matter how many times you type "Phone Jack" the cable on the Zilla between the hairball and the power section is still an ethernet cable. Here is a picture of the cable shipped with the Zilla package. How many Zillas have you installed? I think you are the one trying to type yourself smart!


what a numb nuts!

RJ45 (network cable) works the same as an RJ11 RJ12 RJ6 BT......blah, blah, blah......

For all intents and purposes its a phone plug!

Bad Idea, Bad design!

Keep the phone Jack on the phone and get a real automotive/aeromotive connecter!

Keep typing big boy!


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## EVfun (Mar 14, 2010)

Your tilting at windmills nzev. "Typing yourself smart" is one of Jack's reverences to forming and promoting strong opinions without the actual experience to back it up. I've installed Zilla controllers, have you?


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## nzev (Nov 20, 2008)

EVfun said:


> Your tilting at windmills nzev. "Typing yourself smart" is one of Jack's reverences to forming and promoting strong opinions without the actual experience to back it up. I've installed Zilla controllers, have you?


 No, because I would never own such a device, thats why I use Eventics and Netgain........built by people who know what enviroment the controller is subjected to.....keep typing......

Have you built a real EV??


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## nzev (Nov 20, 2008)

EVfun said:


> Your tilting at windmills nzev. "Typing yourself smart" is one of Jack's reverences to forming and promoting strong opinions without the actual experience to back it up. I've installed Zilla controllers, have you?


 Also! I'll have you know that Jack backs up everything he says by testing! thats why he does on video..... not typing himself smart like a coward, hidding behind words without actual facts!


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## EVfun (Mar 14, 2010)

nzev said:


> Have you built a real EV??


Yes, three. The Buggy in my avatar, a Rabbit and a Datsun. I'm switching my Buggy over to Lithium now. Like I said, I have installed Zillas. I have talked to the designer and understand the hairball was made separate from the power section as a safety enhancement. I have never seen or heard of a failure related to the cable between the two and I've seen a lot of Zilla installs.


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## nzev (Nov 20, 2008)

EVfun said:


> Yes, three. The Buggy in my avatar, a Rabbit and a Datsun. I'm switching my Buggy over to Lithium now. Like I said, I have installed Zillas. I have talked to the designer and understand the hairball was made separate from the power section as a safety enhancement. I have never seen or heard of a failure related to the cable between the two and I've seen a lot of Zilla installs.


Sorry Paul, they're lead sleds, not real cars....try an everyday late model car, something even as boring as a Toyota Corolla would be better, not pimped-up neighbor hood golf carts........

Safety.......my arse!!! NO OEM HAS A SEPERATE CONTROL FROM THE POWER SECTION, ESPECAILLY NOT CONNECTED WITH A "TELEPHONE PLUG"

Keep typing.......

http://paul-g.home.comcast.net http://www.evalbum.com/125


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## nzev (Nov 20, 2008)

EVfun said:


> Yes, three. The Buggy in my avatar, a Rabbit and a Datsun. I'm switching my Buggy over to Lithium now. Like I said, I have installed Zillas. I have talked to the designer and understand the hairball was made separate from the power section as a safety enhancement. I have never seen or heard of a failure related to the cable between the two and I've seen a lot of Zilla installs.


 What the hell are you doing commenting in a New Zealand thread anyway??


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## EVfun (Mar 14, 2010)

nzev said:


> What the hell are you doing commenting in a New Zealand thread anyway??


Just pointing out that you are spreading disinformation about a product with which you have no experience.

What EVs have you built Simon?

http://www.evalbum.com/3269


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## frodus (Apr 12, 2008)

I agree there are other connectors that might be better for a vehicle. Maybe you have a connector in mind? I don't know what kind of connectors would be sufficient for communication. 

Now, in regards to safety, there are two processors, one in the Zilla and one in the Hairball, each keeping its eye on the other:

From CafeElectric:


> The Zilla processor controls the power section and can only be reprogrammed at the factory. It has pretty stable code in it that rarely changes since it does such a important job of protecting the power devices. The Hairball processor controls the contactors and many features and can be reprogrammed in the field. I consider it more flexible since a Hairball error should never cause a Zilla power section to fail. The Hairball and Zilla communicate through a nonstandard bus on Cat 5 wire which is very noise immune. (It’s not ethernet, don’t try to use cat 6 wire) If either unit loses communication with the other, it will shut down the power output in a very short time (less than 250 ms). This is done either through the Hairball by way of the main contactor and/or the Zilla power section by shutting off the IGBTs. I do it this way so that if either system fails for any reason the other will shut down power to the motor in less than one quarter second and avoid a runaway condition.


So, at least its safe if you disconnect them, or if they become disconnected.

It'd be nice to see a sealed version of the zilla with IP rated connectors.


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

NZEV

_*What the hell are you doing commenting in a New Zealand thread anyway??*_

I consider this totally unacceptable - I suggest you apologize immediately!


Hi EVfun,
Sorry about this, not all New Zealanders are total knuckledraggers


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## nzev (Nov 20, 2008)

Duncan said:


> NZEV
> 
> _*What the hell are you doing commenting in a New Zealand thread anyway??*_
> 
> ...


Duncan, piss off!

EVfun doesn't need you to wet nurse him........

NO, I will not apologize for something that is true, I'm sick of everyone talking crap! All you wannabee engineers stop talking shit!


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## nzev (Nov 20, 2008)

nzev said:


> Duncan, piss off!
> 
> EVfun doesn't need you to wet nurse him........
> 
> NO, I will not apologize for something that is true, I'm sick of everyone talking crap! All you wannabee engineers stop talking shit!


 Ahhhhhhhh have I hurt everyone's feelings........boo fucken hoo.....

Go test something in real life instead of typing your self smart!

An electric Vehicle is not a lead sled, not a golf cart, not some bicycle piece of crap.....the EV community is its own worst enemy.


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## JRoque (Mar 9, 2010)

Hey there. Well, I predict you won't be around too long if you keep it up. We here disagree and take shots at each other often, but it's done with a general sense of respect. Those that can't/won't don't last.

We also tend to be original with our comments. Quoting someone else just so you can type something doesn't contribute much. Quoting yourself in a rapid succession of posts doesn't help either.

And dude, whatever you're taking, cut it in half. Duncan is simply embarrassed that a fellow Kiwi is acting this way which I might say, it's very atypical. Chilling out and collecting your thoughts before you make a post is a good place to start. 

Cheers!
JR


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## nzev (Nov 20, 2008)

JRoque said:


> Hey there. Well, I predict you won't be around too long if you keep it up. We here disagree and take shots at each other often, but it's done with a general sense of respect. Those that can't/won't don't last.
> 
> We also tend to be original with our comments. Quoting someone else just so you can type something doesn't contribute much. Quoting yourself in a rapid succession of posts doesn't help either.
> 
> ...


 
No I will not chill out, I know when someones talking through a hole in there arse, people need to stop typing from imagined experience and actually do something real.... that means not building a Golf cart and calling it an EV!

I see why Jack gave up responding to idiots......it's painful........


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## John (Sep 11, 2007)

Please don't feed the troll.


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