# Re: [EVDL] Thunder Sky batteries [count me in!]



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Thunder Sky batteries [count me in!]*

I have this mental image of ThunderSky quality control:
"Does it look like a battery?" Check
"Is any of the gooey stuff on the inside leaking out?" Yes?!? RRrriippp
<sound of 6" of duct tape being torn from the roll> Slap, smush
"Now, "Is any of the gooey stuff on the inside leaking out?" No? Good
ship it.

For those that don't know, the last time there was a US group buy,
Thundersky took a bunch of batteries that didn't meet even their low
standards and shipped them. They had this pile of batteries sitting out
on the loading dock that they had already spent money building and wanted
to cut their losses. They have freely admitted that they did this, but
hey they got paid so they were happy.
It wasn't a question of 'some' of the batteries being bad, they ALL were ba=
d.

If you're going to deal with TS, I HIGHLY reccomend you have someone on
the ground, in China, testing every single battery before it gets shipped.
Once they're shipped, TS considers the deal complete. No refunds, no
returns.
If you test them before shipping, you'll still run the chance of some of
them failing within a couple months, but at least you have a pretty good
chance of them working the first few times.

Most of the folks that I've heard about buying from TS recently are
sending someone over to test the batteries before they're shipped. They
still end up reject cells that pass ThunderSky's "QC". TS must have
accumulated a pretty big pile of these failed cells by now. I wonder what
they would do if they got an order from someone silly enough to not test
them before shipping?

> Mark,
>
> I'm very interested in Thundersky's LFP offerings -- something in the
> neighborhood of 50 or 60 of either their 160 or 90Ah cells (depending
> on the size of the group buy and the resulting cost). I'm willing to
> take the chance that Thundersky sucks and a few cells will go bad
> (thus costing me some performance). Not only that, Rich Rudman, at
> least, has given their LFP cells a pretty good review thus far,
> although whether or not that performance is consistent from one batch
> to the next is yet to be seen. I already got a quote for their
> prices. I'd be curious to see how it compares with other peoples'.
> My results were as low as $1/Ah (~$0.33/Wh, assuming 3V/cell nominal,
> a conservative estimate from the discharge curves in their datasheets)
> in large enough volumes (1,000,000Ah). Realistically, I think we
> could hit $1.50/Ah (>50000Ah). However, I'd much rather go through
> your friend, Mike, than try to go it alone.
>
> My bigger concern is how the cells perform at various discharge rates
> and various states of charge. My car is a Porsche 914 and I have a T-
> Rex 1000. I've already convinced myself that I can live with only 500
> battery amps (still 1000 motor amps up to a point), but can the 90Ah
> cells deliver even that reliably? I presume at least the 160Ah cells
> can. (This is more of a rhetorical question; other list members have
> been helpful sharing their experiences, but I don't honestly have a
> good answer yet). I know some other LiFePO4 cells (K2 energy)
> struggle to deliver 8C bursts, so not everyone's as kick-*** as A123.
>
> In response to Bill Glic's questions, I'm assuming you'd charge a
> Thundersky LFP just like any other LFP cell. You definitely want a
> BMS for balancing purposes. Charge to 3.6 (or 3.65) volts/cell CC-CV
> to C/50 (or so). Short of the BMS, I presume a PFC-20 or PFC-50 would
> work. I am considering building my own.
>
> As for patent issues, my response is a little (okay, very) self-
> serving, but I say let's get some before anyone cracks down on it.
> Some patent licensees will lose some money, but some EV'ers will be
> able to promote some more cool technology to the general public.
> Might even give Thundersky some profit with which to pay the penalties?
>
> A final note: for those with more patience than me, I'm convinced
> that the price of LiFePO4 will come down. It's a young chemistry at
> the moment, but we're already seeing a surge in interest and falling
> prices. It doesn't require as expensive materials (no cobalt), so it
> has inherent cost advantages.
>
> -Ben
>
>


> [email protected] wrote:
> >
> >> Send EV mailing list submissions to
> >> [email protected]
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Thunder Sky batteries [count me in!]*

>>>>For those that don't know, the last time there was a US group buy,
Thundersky took a bunch of batteries that didn't meet even their low
standards and shipped them. They had this pile of batteries sitting out
on the loading dock that they had already spent money building and wanted
to cut their losses. They have freely admitted that they did this, but
hey they got paid so they were happy.
It wasn't a question of 'some' of the batteries being bad, they ALL were
bad.<<<<

I have been flying to China and Taiwan for 7 years, so often that I had to
have pages added to my passport for immigration stamping. I know how dealing
with the Chinese works. I also have heard stories about how this buying
group worked with the Chinese, I understand exactly what happened. You need
to understand the culture if you are going to do business with them.

>>>>If you're going to deal with TS, I HIGHLY reccomend you have someone on
the ground, in China, testing every single battery before it gets shipped.
Once they're shipped, TS considers the deal complete. No refunds, no
returns.
If you test them before shipping, you'll still run the chance of some of
them failing within a couple months, but at least you have a pretty good
chance of them working the first few times.<<<<

Peter, You did not read my original e-mail apparently. I have people, in
China. My people are within truck delivery distance of Thunder Sky. My
people are Chinese, I have been working with them since 2001. They will do
all of the interaction with Thunder Sky, they will do the cycle testing and
then return the rejects. Yes I am sure there will be fallout after. I have
also read where some buying groups buy plus 10% for that reason. 

>>>>Most of the folks that I've heard about buying from TS recently are
sending someone over to test the batteries before they're shipped. They
still end up reject cells that pass ThunderSky's "QC". TS must have
accumulated a pretty big pile of these failed cells by now. I wonder what
they would do if they got an order from someone silly enough to not test
them before shipping?<<<<

If possible I would like to stay away from sending someone to China just to
test batteries, The way I travel that's a $6,000 to $10,000 bill. Makes no
sense. I will tally the personal responses I have received as to those
interested in buying, I will then make the call to my people and get
pricing. I will then post pricing and process and timeline. 

WARRANTY! There are not very many companies in China that offer warranty.
The way it works is exactly as you see it. Once it leaves the country there
is no warranty. Typically the importer gives the warranty but he also
triples the price to you from what he pays for it. This is how he makes a
profit and how he is able to provide a warranty. If everyone wants a
warranty I can do that but your price will be triply what they cost. As they
say, you can't have the cake and eat it too. 

Mark Grasser



_______________________________________________
For subscription options, see
http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Thunder Sky batteries [count me in!]*

And I have office in TS building... downstairs/bottom floor, main 
building, back in the left hand side... I can assure you it's not about 
being close enough..

The problem has been that TS did sell stuff that did not meet the 
original datasheets even remotely. There was no warranty for many 
reasons and all the bad fame was over them after that stunt.

But that wasn't the llast time it happened. I still have a big pile of 
LMP cells which are failing or already done so by internal corrosion. No 
warranty due the fact that we got them so cheap in first place. Now 
that's an extremely good reason and did build my faith/trust against 
them by -1000. Not to mention the lost hitpoints due massive recalls.

LFPs work extremely well on cyclic use but the small and tiny thing 
called patent infrigment just kills the biz in here. Thou now I can see 
dozens of small startups selling them like DVDs in Shenzhen markets. 
LFPs have also quite poor energy density. It's like half of the LCPs.

LCPs are.. uh.. so nice and usable. I just love those puppies. They've 
never let me down so far (since 2002). But now the price has sky 
rocketed and TS arranged manufacturing of these cells in other factory. 
=> quality wen't out of window. Yes. the same window they keep open 
always in the "dry room".

Overall.. I'm happier with Lithium and the effect has been just the 
opposite what the pharmaca fennica says. But keep your hat on. It's a 
jungle out there.

-Jukka

Mark Grasser kirjoitti:
>>>>> For those that don't know, the last time there was a US group buy,
> Thundersky took a bunch of batteries that didn't meet even their low
> standards and shipped them. They had this pile of batteries sitting out
> on the loading dock that they had already spent money building and wanted
> to cut their losses. They have freely admitted that they did this, but
> hey they got paid so they were happy.
> It wasn't a question of 'some' of the batteries being bad, they ALL were
> bad.<<<<
> 
> I have been flying to China and Taiwan for 7 years, so often that I had to
> have pages added to my passport for immigration stamping. I know how dealing
> with the Chinese works. I also have heard stories about how this buying
> group worked with the Chinese, I understand exactly what happened. You need
> to understand the culture if you are going to do business with them.
> 
>>>>> If you're going to deal with TS, I HIGHLY reccomend you have someone on
> the ground, in China, testing every single battery before it gets shipped.
> Once they're shipped, TS considers the deal complete. No refunds, no
> returns.
> If you test them before shipping, you'll still run the chance of some of
> them failing within a couple months, but at least you have a pretty good
> chance of them working the first few times.<<<<
> 
> Peter, You did not read my original e-mail apparently. I have people, in
> China. My people are within truck delivery distance of Thunder Sky. My
> people are Chinese, I have been working with them since 2001. They will do
> all of the interaction with Thunder Sky, they will do the cycle testing and
> then return the rejects. Yes I am sure there will be fallout after. I have
> also read where some buying groups buy plus 10% for that reason. 
> 
>>>>> Most of the folks that I've heard about buying from TS recently are
> sending someone over to test the batteries before they're shipped. They
> still end up reject cells that pass ThunderSky's "QC". TS must have
> accumulated a pretty big pile of these failed cells by now. I wonder what
> they would do if they got an order from someone silly enough to not test
> them before shipping?<<<<
> 
> If possible I would like to stay away from sending someone to China just to
> test batteries, The way I travel that's a $6,000 to $10,000 bill. Makes no
> sense. I will tally the personal responses I have received as to those
> interested in buying, I will then make the call to my people and get
> pricing. I will then post pricing and process and timeline. 
> 
> WARRANTY! There are not very many companies in China that offer warranty.
> The way it works is exactly as you see it. Once it leaves the country there
> is no warranty. Typically the importer gives the warranty but he also
> triples the price to you from what he pays for it. This is how he makes a
> profit and how he is able to provide a warranty. If everyone wants a
> warranty I can do that but your price will be triply what they cost. As they
> say, you can't have the cake and eat it too. 
> 
> Mark Grasser
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
> 

_______________________________________________
For subscription options, see
http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Thunder Sky batteries [count me in!]*

I still have 94 of these junk ThunderSky cells sitting in my garage =

collecting dust. My own personal experience with ThunderSky (as part of =

the group buy that Peter mentioned) was absolutely horrible. With no =

hope of ever getting them replaced, the best I can do is share my =

experience with everyone that asks, and tell them exactly how crappy =

ThunderSky batteries are. My advice would be to stay as far away from =

ThunderSky and anything they've touched as possible. =


-Bryan


Peter VanDerWal wrote:
> I have this mental image of ThunderSky quality control:
> "Does it look like a battery?" Check
> "Is any of the gooey stuff on the inside leaking out?" Yes?!? RRrriippp
> <sound of 6" of duct tape being torn from the roll> Slap, smush
> "Now, "Is any of the gooey stuff on the inside leaking out?" No? Good
> ship it.
>
> For those that don't know, the last time there was a US group buy,
> Thundersky took a bunch of batteries that didn't meet even their low
> standards and shipped them. They had this pile of batteries sitting out
> on the loading dock that they had already spent money building and wanted
> to cut their losses. They have freely admitted that they did this, but
> hey they got paid so they were happy.
> It wasn't a question of 'some' of the batteries being bad, they ALL were =
bad.
>
> If you're going to deal with TS, I HIGHLY reccomend you have someone on
> the ground, in China, testing every single battery before it gets shipped.
> Once they're shipped, TS considers the deal complete. No refunds, no
> returns.
> If you test them before shipping, you'll still run the chance of some of
> them failing within a couple months, but at least you have a pretty good
> chance of them working the first few times.
>
> Most of the folks that I've heard about buying from TS recently are
> sending someone over to test the batteries before they're shipped. They
> still end up reject cells that pass ThunderSky's "QC". TS must have
> accumulated a pretty big pile of these failed cells by now. I wonder what
> they would do if they got an order from someone silly enough to not test
> them before shipping?
>
> =

>> Mark,
>>
>> I'm very interested in Thundersky's LFP offerings -- something in the
>> neighborhood of 50 or 60 of either their 160 or 90Ah cells (depending
>> on the size of the group buy and the resulting cost). I'm willing to
>> take the chance that Thundersky sucks and a few cells will go bad
>> (thus costing me some performance). Not only that, Rich Rudman, at
>> least, has given their LFP cells a pretty good review thus far,
>> although whether or not that performance is consistent from one batch
>> to the next is yet to be seen. I already got a quote for their
>> prices. I'd be curious to see how it compares with other peoples'.
>> My results were as low as $1/Ah (~$0.33/Wh, assuming 3V/cell nominal,
>> a conservative estimate from the discharge curves in their datasheets)
>> in large enough volumes (1,000,000Ah). Realistically, I think we
>> could hit $1.50/Ah (>50000Ah). However, I'd much rather go through
>> your friend, Mike, than try to go it alone.
>>
>> My bigger concern is how the cells perform at various discharge rates
>> and various states of charge. My car is a Porsche 914 and I have a T-
>> Rex 1000. I've already convinced myself that I can live with only 500
>> battery amps (still 1000 motor amps up to a point), but can the 90Ah
>> cells deliver even that reliably? I presume at least the 160Ah cells
>> can. (This is more of a rhetorical question; other list members have
>> been helpful sharing their experiences, but I don't honestly have a
>> good answer yet). I know some other LiFePO4 cells (K2 energy)
>> struggle to deliver 8C bursts, so not everyone's as kick-*** as A123.
>>
>> In response to Bill Glic's questions, I'm assuming you'd charge a
>> Thundersky LFP just like any other LFP cell. You definitely want a
>> BMS for balancing purposes. Charge to 3.6 (or 3.65) volts/cell CC-CV
>> to C/50 (or so). Short of the BMS, I presume a PFC-20 or PFC-50 would
>> work. I am considering building my own.
>>
>> As for patent issues, my response is a little (okay, very) self-
>> serving, but I say let's get some before anyone cracks down on it.
>> Some patent licensees will lose some money, but some EV'ers will be
>> able to promote some more cool technology to the general public.
>> Might even give Thundersky some profit with which to pay the penalties?
>>
>> A final note: for those with more patience than me, I'm convinced
>> that the price of LiFePO4 will come down. It's a young chemistry at
>> the moment, but we're already seeing a surge in interest and falling
>> prices. It doesn't require as expensive materials (no cobalt), so it
>> has inherent cost advantages.
>>
>> -Ben
>>
>>


> [email protected] wrote:
> >>
> >> =
> 
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Thunder Sky batteries [count me in!]*

Jukka,
You have an office here? What is it that you do there? I am curious that you
would take so long to respond. I would like to know as much as possible. I
do not understand why some people say such bad things about thunder Sky and
then others want in on a buy. Why does the European group continue to put
together buy campaigns and others despise them. Yet thunder Sky is still in
business. What gives? Enquiring minds want to know, especially mine.

Mark Grasser
=



-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf
Of Jukka J=E4rvinen
Sent: Tuesday, April 15, 2008 6:32 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Thunder Sky batteries [count me in!]

And I have office in TS building... downstairs/bottom floor, main =

building, back in the left hand side... I can assure you it's not about =

being close enough..

The problem has been that TS did sell stuff that did not meet the =

original datasheets even remotely. There was no warranty for many =

reasons and all the bad fame was over them after that stunt.

But that wasn't the llast time it happened. I still have a big pile of =

LMP cells which are failing or already done so by internal corrosion. No =

warranty due the fact that we got them so cheap in first place. Now =

that's an extremely good reason and did build my faith/trust against =

them by -1000. Not to mention the lost hitpoints due massive recalls.

LFPs work extremely well on cyclic use but the small and tiny thing =

called patent infrigment just kills the biz in here. Thou now I can see =

dozens of small startups selling them like DVDs in Shenzhen markets. =

LFPs have also quite poor energy density. It's like half of the LCPs.

LCPs are.. uh.. so nice and usable. I just love those puppies. They've =

never let me down so far (since 2002). But now the price has sky =

rocketed and TS arranged manufacturing of these cells in other factory. =

=3D> quality wen't out of window. Yes. the same window they keep open =

always in the "dry room".

Overall.. I'm happier with Lithium and the effect has been just the =

opposite what the pharmaca fennica says. But keep your hat on. It's a =

jungle out there.

-Jukka

Mark Grasser kirjoitti:
>>>>> For those that don't know, the last time there was a US group buy,
> Thundersky took a bunch of batteries that didn't meet even their low
> standards and shipped them. They had this pile of batteries sitting out
> on the loading dock that they had already spent money building and wanted
> to cut their losses. They have freely admitted that they did this, but
> hey they got paid so they were happy.
> It wasn't a question of 'some' of the batteries being bad, they ALL were
> bad.<<<<
> =

> I have been flying to China and Taiwan for 7 years, so often that I had to
> have pages added to my passport for immigration stamping. I know how
dealing
> with the Chinese works. I also have heard stories about how this buying
> group worked with the Chinese, I understand exactly what happened. You
need
> to understand the culture if you are going to do business with them.
> =

>>>>> If you're going to deal with TS, I HIGHLY reccomend you have someone
on
> the ground, in China, testing every single battery before it gets shipped.
> Once they're shipped, TS considers the deal complete. No refunds, no
> returns.
> If you test them before shipping, you'll still run the chance of some of
> them failing within a couple months, but at least you have a pretty good
> chance of them working the first few times.<<<<
> =

> Peter, You did not read my original e-mail apparently. I have people, in
> China. My people are within truck delivery distance of Thunder Sky. My
> people are Chinese, I have been working with them since 2001. They will do
> all of the interaction with Thunder Sky, they will do the cycle testing
and
> then return the rejects. Yes I am sure there will be fallout after. I have
> also read where some buying groups buy plus 10% for that reason. =

> =

>>>>> Most of the folks that I've heard about buying from TS recently are
> sending someone over to test the batteries before they're shipped. They
> still end up reject cells that pass ThunderSky's "QC". TS must have
> accumulated a pretty big pile of these failed cells by now. I wonder what
> they would do if they got an order from someone silly enough to not test
> them before shipping?<<<<
> =

> If possible I would like to stay away from sending someone to China just
to
> test batteries, The way I travel that's a $6,000 to $10,000 bill. Makes no
> sense. I will tally the personal responses I have received as to those
> interested in buying, I will then make the call to my people and get
> pricing. I will then post pricing and process and timeline. =

> =

> WARRANTY! There are not very many companies in China that offer warranty.
> The way it works is exactly as you see it. Once it leaves the country
there
> is no warranty. Typically the importer gives the warranty but he also
> triples the price to you from what he pays for it. This is how he makes a
> profit and how he is able to provide a warranty. If everyone wants a
> warranty I can do that but your price will be triply what they cost. As
they
> say, you can't have the cake and eat it too. =

> =

> Mark Grasser
> =

> =

> =

> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
> =


_______________________________________________
For subscription options, see
http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev


_______________________________________________
For subscription options, see
http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Thunder Sky batteries [count me in!]*

Because I was there already before the shit came down (2003).

I have an office there since we were going to be partners with TS with =

EU sales and manufacturing. We are still in prosess to put the factory =

up in here but the Chinese equipment is ... chinese. So we needed to =

take a reality check.

I also provided one BMS system there for the EV bus but this bus never =

got lisence to operate on Chinese streets. Also there was some personal =

issues between me and Dr Lee. I steppen on his toes when I disassembled =

his system from the bus and installed mine. During the installation =

there was some expencive piece of equipment that got missing. I have my =

suspects but Winston never got the equipment back. So I got very, very =

careful after that abtou them.

Anyway. There are good and bad experiences with TS cells. People who =

have good are still astonished how well they have been working. And the =

other people who have got crap... have already told their opinions about =

the TS warranty policies.

This is where the actual problem derives. TS can sell stuff since there =

is so huge demand and people are willing to take the risk. Even willing =

to break the laws and disregard the patent issues.

My response time is long due so huge amount on piled work. I have few =

hundred EV orders and I try to minimize the risks with TS cells. LFP was =

suddenly out of question and now EVerybody want's it. Even thou I do not =

think the TS LPF is so marvelous. LCPs rock and are very good.

I have not been at my office for several months.. So actually I do not =

know it is even there anymore... 

-Jukka

Mark Grasser kirjoitti:
> Jukka,
> You have an office here? What is it that you do there? I am curious that =
you
> would take so long to respond. I would like to know as much as possible. I
> do not understand why some people say such bad things about thunder Sky a=
nd
> then others want in on a buy. Why does the European group continue to put
> together buy campaigns and others despise them. Yet thunder Sky is still =
in
> business. What gives? Enquiring minds want to know, especially mine.
> =

> Mark Grasser
> =

> =

> =

> -----Original Message-----
> From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Beh=
alf
> Of Jukka J=E4rvinen
> Sent: Tuesday, April 15, 2008 6:32 PM
> To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Thunder Sky batteries [count me in!]
> =

> And I have office in TS building... downstairs/bottom floor, main =

> building, back in the left hand side... I can assure you it's not about =

> being close enough..
> =

> The problem has been that TS did sell stuff that did not meet the =

> original datasheets even remotely. There was no warranty for many =

> reasons and all the bad fame was over them after that stunt.
> =

> But that wasn't the llast time it happened. I still have a big pile of =

> LMP cells which are failing or already done so by internal corrosion. No =

> warranty due the fact that we got them so cheap in first place. Now =

> that's an extremely good reason and did build my faith/trust against =

> them by -1000. Not to mention the lost hitpoints due massive recalls.
> =

> LFPs work extremely well on cyclic use but the small and tiny thing =

> called patent infrigment just kills the biz in here. Thou now I can see =

> dozens of small startups selling them like DVDs in Shenzhen markets. =

> LFPs have also quite poor energy density. It's like half of the LCPs.
> =

> LCPs are.. uh.. so nice and usable. I just love those puppies. They've =

> never let me down so far (since 2002). But now the price has sky =

> rocketed and TS arranged manufacturing of these cells in other factory. =

> =3D> quality wen't out of window. Yes. the same window they keep open =

> always in the "dry room".
> =

> Overall.. I'm happier with Lithium and the effect has been just the =

> opposite what the pharmaca fennica says. But keep your hat on. It's a =

> jungle out there.
> =

> -Jukka
> =

> Mark Grasser kirjoitti:
>>>>>> For those that don't know, the last time there was a US group buy,
>> Thundersky took a bunch of batteries that didn't meet even their low
>> standards and shipped them. They had this pile of batteries sitting out
>> on the loading dock that they had already spent money building and wanted
>> to cut their losses. They have freely admitted that they did this, but
>> hey they got paid so they were happy.
>> It wasn't a question of 'some' of the batteries being bad, they ALL were
>> bad.<<<<
>>
>> I have been flying to China and Taiwan for 7 years, so often that I had =
to
>> have pages added to my passport for immigration stamping. I know how
> dealing
>> with the Chinese works. I also have heard stories about how this buying
>> group worked with the Chinese, I understand exactly what happened. You
> need
>> to understand the culture if you are going to do business with them.
>>
>>>>>> If you're going to deal with TS, I HIGHLY reccomend you have someone
> on
>> the ground, in China, testing every single battery before it gets shippe=
d.
>> Once they're shipped, TS considers the deal complete. No refunds, no
>> returns.
>> If you test them before shipping, you'll still run the chance of some of
>> them failing within a couple months, but at least you have a pretty good
>> chance of them working the first few times.<<<<
>>
>> Peter, You did not read my original e-mail apparently. I have people, in
>> China. My people are within truck delivery distance of Thunder Sky. My
>> people are Chinese, I have been working with them since 2001. They will =
do
>> all of the interaction with Thunder Sky, they will do the cycle testing
> and
>> then return the rejects. Yes I am sure there will be fallout after. I ha=
ve
>> also read where some buying groups buy plus 10% for that reason. =

>>
>>>>>> Most of the folks that I've heard about buying from TS recently are
>> sending someone over to test the batteries before they're shipped. They
>> still end up reject cells that pass ThunderSky's "QC". TS must have
>> accumulated a pretty big pile of these failed cells by now. I wonder wh=
at
>> they would do if they got an order from someone silly enough to not test
>> them before shipping?<<<<
>>
>> If possible I would like to stay away from sending someone to China just
> to
>> test batteries, The way I travel that's a $6,000 to $10,000 bill. Makes =
no
>> sense. I will tally the personal responses I have received as to those
>> interested in buying, I will then make the call to my people and get
>> pricing. I will then post pricing and process and timeline. =

>>
>> WARRANTY! There are not very many companies in China that offer warranty.
>> The way it works is exactly as you see it. Once it leaves the country
> there
>> is no warranty. Typically the importer gives the warranty but he also
>> triples the price to you from what he pays for it. This is how he makes a
>> profit and how he is able to provide a warranty. If everyone wants a
>> warranty I can do that but your price will be triply what they cost. As
> they
>> say, you can't have the cake and eat it too. =

>>
>> Mark Grasser
>>
>> =

>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> For subscription options, see
>> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>>
> =

> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
> =

> =

> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
> =


_______________________________________________
For subscription options, see
http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Thunder Sky batteries [count me in!]*

So to summarize:
You are partners but you are not.
You have an office there but you haven't been there in months.
You are not on good terms with the company engineer or owner, not sure who.
You are slamming Thunder Sky in general but you are filling orders and love
the LCPs.

Instead of replying privately you spread this all over the EV list about how
bad Thunder Sky is yet you are the contact to buy Thunder Sky batteries? How
does that work? I wonder if maybe you are the problem with the bad PR and
the bad batteries coming out of Thunder Sky. I suppose I might be hurting my
orders at this point but this smells of stinky tofu!


Mark Grasser
=



-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf
Of Jukka J=E4rvinen
Sent: Wednesday, April 16, 2008 8:03 AM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Thunder Sky batteries [count me in!]

Because I was there already before the shit came down (2003).

I have an office there since we were going to be partners with TS with =

EU sales and manufacturing. We are still in prosess to put the factory =

up in here but the Chinese equipment is ... chinese. So we needed to =

take a reality check.

I also provided one BMS system there for the EV bus but this bus never =

got lisence to operate on Chinese streets. Also there was some personal =

issues between me and Dr Lee. I steppen on his toes when I disassembled =

his system from the bus and installed mine. During the installation =

there was some expencive piece of equipment that got missing. I have my =

suspects but Winston never got the equipment back. So I got very, very =

careful after that abtou them.

Anyway. There are good and bad experiences with TS cells. People who =

have good are still astonished how well they have been working. And the =

other people who have got crap... have already told their opinions about =

the TS warranty policies.

This is where the actual problem derives. TS can sell stuff since there =

is so huge demand and people are willing to take the risk. Even willing =

to break the laws and disregard the patent issues.

My response time is long due so huge amount on piled work. I have few =

hundred EV orders and I try to minimize the risks with TS cells. LFP was =

suddenly out of question and now EVerybody want's it. Even thou I do not =

think the TS LPF is so marvelous. LCPs rock and are very good.

I have not been at my office for several months.. So actually I do not =

know it is even there anymore... 

-Jukka

Mark Grasser kirjoitti:
> Jukka,
> You have an office here? What is it that you do there? I am curious that
you
> would take so long to respond. I would like to know as much as possible. I
> do not understand why some people say such bad things about thunder Sky
and
> then others want in on a buy. Why does the European group continue to put
> together buy campaigns and others despise them. Yet thunder Sky is still
in
> business. What gives? Enquiring minds want to know, especially mine.
> =

> Mark Grasser
> =

> =

> =

> -----Original Message-----
> From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On
Behalf
> Of Jukka J=E4rvinen
> Sent: Tuesday, April 15, 2008 6:32 PM
> To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Thunder Sky batteries [count me in!]
> =

> And I have office in TS building... downstairs/bottom floor, main =

> building, back in the left hand side... I can assure you it's not about =

> being close enough..
> =

> The problem has been that TS did sell stuff that did not meet the =

> original datasheets even remotely. There was no warranty for many =

> reasons and all the bad fame was over them after that stunt.
> =

> But that wasn't the llast time it happened. I still have a big pile of =

> LMP cells which are failing or already done so by internal corrosion. No =

> warranty due the fact that we got them so cheap in first place. Now =

> that's an extremely good reason and did build my faith/trust against =

> them by -1000. Not to mention the lost hitpoints due massive recalls.
> =

> LFPs work extremely well on cyclic use but the small and tiny thing =

> called patent infrigment just kills the biz in here. Thou now I can see =

> dozens of small startups selling them like DVDs in Shenzhen markets. =

> LFPs have also quite poor energy density. It's like half of the LCPs.
> =

> LCPs are.. uh.. so nice and usable. I just love those puppies. They've =

> never let me down so far (since 2002). But now the price has sky =

> rocketed and TS arranged manufacturing of these cells in other factory. =

> =3D> quality wen't out of window. Yes. the same window they keep open =

> always in the "dry room".
> =

> Overall.. I'm happier with Lithium and the effect has been just the =

> opposite what the pharmaca fennica says. But keep your hat on. It's a =

> jungle out there.
> =

> -Jukka
> =

> Mark Grasser kirjoitti:
>>>>>> For those that don't know, the last time there was a US group buy,
>> Thundersky took a bunch of batteries that didn't meet even their low
>> standards and shipped them. They had this pile of batteries sitting out
>> on the loading dock that they had already spent money building and wanted
>> to cut their losses. They have freely admitted that they did this, but
>> hey they got paid so they were happy.
>> It wasn't a question of 'some' of the batteries being bad, they ALL were
>> bad.<<<<
>>
>> I have been flying to China and Taiwan for 7 years, so often that I had
to
>> have pages added to my passport for immigration stamping. I know how
> dealing
>> with the Chinese works. I also have heard stories about how this buying
>> group worked with the Chinese, I understand exactly what happened. You
> need
>> to understand the culture if you are going to do business with them.
>>
>>>>>> If you're going to deal with TS, I HIGHLY reccomend you have someone
> on
>> the ground, in China, testing every single battery before it gets
shipped.
>> Once they're shipped, TS considers the deal complete. No refunds, no
>> returns.
>> If you test them before shipping, you'll still run the chance of some of
>> them failing within a couple months, but at least you have a pretty good
>> chance of them working the first few times.<<<<
>>
>> Peter, You did not read my original e-mail apparently. I have people, in
>> China. My people are within truck delivery distance of Thunder Sky. My
>> people are Chinese, I have been working with them since 2001. They will
do
>> all of the interaction with Thunder Sky, they will do the cycle testing
> and
>> then return the rejects. Yes I am sure there will be fallout after. I
have
>> also read where some buying groups buy plus 10% for that reason. =

>>
>>>>>> Most of the folks that I've heard about buying from TS recently are
>> sending someone over to test the batteries before they're shipped. They
>> still end up reject cells that pass ThunderSky's "QC". TS must have
>> accumulated a pretty big pile of these failed cells by now. I wonder
what
>> they would do if they got an order from someone silly enough to not test
>> them before shipping?<<<<
>>
>> If possible I would like to stay away from sending someone to China just
> to
>> test batteries, The way I travel that's a $6,000 to $10,000 bill. Makes
no
>> sense. I will tally the personal responses I have received as to those
>> interested in buying, I will then make the call to my people and get
>> pricing. I will then post pricing and process and timeline. =

>>
>> WARRANTY! There are not very many companies in China that offer warranty.
>> The way it works is exactly as you see it. Once it leaves the country
> there
>> is no warranty. Typically the importer gives the warranty but he also
>> triples the price to you from what he pays for it. This is how he makes a
>> profit and how he is able to provide a warranty. If everyone wants a
>> warranty I can do that but your price will be triply what they cost. As
> they
>> say, you can't have the cake and eat it too. =

>>
>> Mark Grasser
>>
>> =

>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> For subscription options, see
>> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>>
> =

> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
> =

> =

> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
> =


_______________________________________________
For subscription options, see
http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev


_______________________________________________
For subscription options, see
http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Thunder Sky batteries [count me in!]*

Dude, you haven't got a clue what you're talking about and need to tone it
down.

Jukka isn't slamming them, he's telling it like it is. He is not a TS
representative, he doesn't work for them (never has). He's just one of
their biggest customers.

He had nothing to do with TS's bad rep, they don't need any help there. =

TS screwed a lot of folks on this list long before Jukka ever heard of
them.
Jukka is a European bussinesman that heard about TS and was smart enough
to actually go to China and check out the cells before buying them.

He was/is buying mega quantities of cells from TS and reselling them in
Europe. Even though he is probably their largest customer outside of
China, they have no problem screwing him too.
I suspect the only reason he is still dealing with them is because he
can't get the cells he needs at a price people are willing to pay anywhere
else.

So take a chill pill, sit back and look at this objectively. Jukka is
just warning you about the hazards of dealing with TS.

> So to summarize:
> You are partners but you are not.
> You have an office there but you haven't been there in months.
> You are not on good terms with the company engineer or owner, not sure
> who.
> You are slamming Thunder Sky in general but you are filling orders and
> love
> the LCPs.
>
> Instead of replying privately you spread this all over the EV list about
> how
> bad Thunder Sky is yet you are the contact to buy Thunder Sky batteries?
> How
> does that work? I wonder if maybe you are the problem with the bad PR and
> the bad batteries coming out of Thunder Sky. I suppose I might be hurting
> my
> orders at this point but this smells of stinky tofu!
>
>
> Mark Grasser
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On
> Behalf
> Of Jukka J=E4rvinen
> Sent: Wednesday, April 16, 2008 8:03 AM
> To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Thunder Sky batteries [count me in!]
>
> Because I was there already before the shit came down (2003).
>
> I have an office there since we were going to be partners with TS with
> EU sales and manufacturing. We are still in prosess to put the factory
> up in here but the Chinese equipment is ... chinese. So we needed to
> take a reality check.
>
> I also provided one BMS system there for the EV bus but this bus never
> got lisence to operate on Chinese streets. Also there was some personal
> issues between me and Dr Lee. I steppen on his toes when I disassembled
> his system from the bus and installed mine. During the installation
> there was some expencive piece of equipment that got missing. I have my
> suspects but Winston never got the equipment back. So I got very, very
> careful after that abtou them.
>
> Anyway. There are good and bad experiences with TS cells. People who
> have good are still astonished how well they have been working. And the
> other people who have got crap... have already told their opinions about
> the TS warranty policies.
>
> This is where the actual problem derives. TS can sell stuff since there
> is so huge demand and people are willing to take the risk. Even willing
> to break the laws and disregard the patent issues.
>
> My response time is long due so huge amount on piled work. I have few
> hundred EV orders and I try to minimize the risks with TS cells. LFP was
> suddenly out of question and now EVerybody want's it. Even thou I do not
> think the TS LPF is so marvelous. LCPs rock and are very good.
>
> I have not been at my office for several months.. So actually I do not
> know it is even there anymore... 
>
> -Jukka
>
> Mark Grasser kirjoitti:
>> Jukka,
>> You have an office here? What is it that you do there? I am curious that
> you
>> would take so long to respond. I would like to know as much as possible.
>> I
>> do not understand why some people say such bad things about thunder Sky
> and
>> then others want in on a buy. Why does the European group continue to
>> put
>> together buy campaigns and others despise them. Yet thunder Sky is still
> in
>> business. What gives? Enquiring minds want to know, especially mine.
>>
>> Mark Grasser
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On
> Behalf
>> Of Jukka J=E4rvinen
>> Sent: Tuesday, April 15, 2008 6:32 PM
>> To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
>> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Thunder Sky batteries [count me in!]
>>
>> And I have office in TS building... downstairs/bottom floor, main
>> building, back in the left hand side... I can assure you it's not about
>> being close enough..
>>
>> The problem has been that TS did sell stuff that did not meet the
>> original datasheets even remotely. There was no warranty for many
>> reasons and all the bad fame was over them after that stunt.
>>
>> But that wasn't the llast time it happened. I still have a big pile of
>> LMP cells which are failing or already done so by internal corrosion. No
>> warranty due the fact that we got them so cheap in first place. Now
>> that's an extremely good reason and did build my faith/trust against
>> them by -1000. Not to mention the lost hitpoints due massive recalls.
>>
>> LFPs work extremely well on cyclic use but the small and tiny thing
>> called patent infrigment just kills the biz in here. Thou now I can see
>> dozens of small startups selling them like DVDs in Shenzhen markets.
>> LFPs have also quite poor energy density. It's like half of the LCPs.
>>
>> LCPs are.. uh.. so nice and usable. I just love those puppies. They've
>> never let me down so far (since 2002). But now the price has sky
>> rocketed and TS arranged manufacturing of these cells in other factory.
>> =3D> quality wen't out of window. Yes. the same window they keep open
>> always in the "dry room".
>>
>> Overall.. I'm happier with Lithium and the effect has been just the
>> opposite what the pharmaca fennica says. But keep your hat on. It's a
>> jungle out there.
>>
>> -Jukka
>>
>> Mark Grasser kirjoitti:
>>>>>>> For those that don't know, the last time there was a US group buy,
>>> Thundersky took a bunch of batteries that didn't meet even their low
>>> standards and shipped them. They had this pile of batteries sitting
>>> out
>>> on the loading dock that they had already spent money building and
>>> wanted
>>> to cut their losses. They have freely admitted that they did this, but
>>> hey they got paid so they were happy.
>>> It wasn't a question of 'some' of the batteries being bad, they ALL
>>> were
>>> bad.<<<<
>>>
>>> I have been flying to China and Taiwan for 7 years, so often that I had
> to
>>> have pages added to my passport for immigration stamping. I know how
>> dealing
>>> with the Chinese works. I also have heard stories about how this buying
>>> group worked with the Chinese, I understand exactly what happened. You
>> need
>>> to understand the culture if you are going to do business with them.
>>>
>>>>>>> If you're going to deal with TS, I HIGHLY reccomend you have
>>>>>>> someone
>> on
>>> the ground, in China, testing every single battery before it gets
> shipped.
>>> Once they're shipped, TS considers the deal complete. No refunds, no
>>> returns.
>>> If you test them before shipping, you'll still run the chance of some
>>> of
>>> them failing within a couple months, but at least you have a pretty
>>> good
>>> chance of them working the first few times.<<<<
>>>
>>> Peter, You did not read my original e-mail apparently. I have people,
>>> in
>>> China. My people are within truck delivery distance of Thunder Sky. My
>>> people are Chinese, I have been working with them since 2001. They will
> do
>>> all of the interaction with Thunder Sky, they will do the cycle testing
>> and
>>> then return the rejects. Yes I am sure there will be fallout after. I
> have
>>> also read where some buying groups buy plus 10% for that reason.
>>>
>>>>>>> Most of the folks that I've heard about buying from TS recently are
>>> sending someone over to test the batteries before they're shipped.
>>> They
>>> still end up reject cells that pass ThunderSky's "QC". TS must have
>>> accumulated a pretty big pile of these failed cells by now. I wonder
> what
>>> they would do if they got an order from someone silly enough to not
>>> test
>>> them before shipping?<<<<
>>>
>>> If possible I would like to stay away from sending someone to China
>>> just
>> to
>>> test batteries, The way I travel that's a $6,000 to $10,000 bill. Makes
> no
>>> sense. I will tally the personal responses I have received as to those
>>> interested in buying, I will then make the call to my people and get
>>> pricing. I will then post pricing and process and timeline.
>>>
>>> WARRANTY! There are not very many companies in China that offer
>>> warranty.
>>> The way it works is exactly as you see it. Once it leaves the country
>> there
>>> is no warranty. Typically the importer gives the warranty but he also
>>> triples the price to you from what he pays for it. This is how he makes
>>> a
>>> profit and how he is able to provide a warranty. If everyone wants a
>>> warranty I can do that but your price will be triply what they cost. As
>> they
>>> say, you can't have the cake and eat it too.
>>>
>>> Mark Grasser
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> For subscription options, see
>>> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> For subscription options, see
>> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> For subscription options, see
>> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>


_______________________________________________
For subscription options, see
http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Thunder Sky batteries [count me in!]*

Peter,
I think the tone is right on actually, it's just the way I write. 
But actually I think I DO have it right. I see nothing in his post about how
to do it, All I see is don't do it.

I think I have a good plan and I will forge ahead, first with a sample test
and buy then hopefully one large buy after another. I have quite a few
commitments already and don't plan to disappoint. If it takes a trip to
China so be it but with good contacts it shouldn't have to happen.

Mark Grasser
=



-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf
Of Peter VanDerWal
Sent: Wednesday, April 16, 2008 3:22 AM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Thunder Sky batteries [count me in!]

Dude, you haven't got a clue what you're talking about and need to tone it
down.

Jukka isn't slamming them, he's telling it like it is. He is not a TS
representative, he doesn't work for them (never has). He's just one of
their biggest customers.

He had nothing to do with TS's bad rep, they don't need any help there. =

TS screwed a lot of folks on this list long before Jukka ever heard of
them.
Jukka is a European bussinesman that heard about TS and was smart enough
to actually go to China and check out the cells before buying them.

He was/is buying mega quantities of cells from TS and reselling them in
Europe. Even though he is probably their largest customer outside of
China, they have no problem screwing him too.
I suspect the only reason he is still dealing with them is because he
can't get the cells he needs at a price people are willing to pay anywhere
else.

So take a chill pill, sit back and look at this objectively. Jukka is
just warning you about the hazards of dealing with TS.

> So to summarize:
> You are partners but you are not.
> You have an office there but you haven't been there in months.
> You are not on good terms with the company engineer or owner, not sure
> who.
> You are slamming Thunder Sky in general but you are filling orders and
> love
> the LCPs.
>
> Instead of replying privately you spread this all over the EV list about
> how
> bad Thunder Sky is yet you are the contact to buy Thunder Sky batteries?
> How
> does that work? I wonder if maybe you are the problem with the bad PR and
> the bad batteries coming out of Thunder Sky. I suppose I might be hurting
> my
> orders at this point but this smells of stinky tofu!
>
>
> Mark Grasser
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On
> Behalf
> Of Jukka J=E4rvinen
> Sent: Wednesday, April 16, 2008 8:03 AM
> To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Thunder Sky batteries [count me in!]
>
> Because I was there already before the shit came down (2003).
>
> I have an office there since we were going to be partners with TS with
> EU sales and manufacturing. We are still in prosess to put the factory
> up in here but the Chinese equipment is ... chinese. So we needed to
> take a reality check.
>
> I also provided one BMS system there for the EV bus but this bus never
> got lisence to operate on Chinese streets. Also there was some personal
> issues between me and Dr Lee. I steppen on his toes when I disassembled
> his system from the bus and installed mine. During the installation
> there was some expencive piece of equipment that got missing. I have my
> suspects but Winston never got the equipment back. So I got very, very
> careful after that abtou them.
>
> Anyway. There are good and bad experiences with TS cells. People who
> have good are still astonished how well they have been working. And the
> other people who have got crap... have already told their opinions about
> the TS warranty policies.
>
> This is where the actual problem derives. TS can sell stuff since there
> is so huge demand and people are willing to take the risk. Even willing
> to break the laws and disregard the patent issues.
>
> My response time is long due so huge amount on piled work. I have few
> hundred EV orders and I try to minimize the risks with TS cells. LFP was
> suddenly out of question and now EVerybody want's it. Even thou I do not
> think the TS LPF is so marvelous. LCPs rock and are very good.
>
> I have not been at my office for several months.. So actually I do not
> know it is even there anymore... 
>
> -Jukka
>
> Mark Grasser kirjoitti:
>> Jukka,
>> You have an office here? What is it that you do there? I am curious that
> you
>> would take so long to respond. I would like to know as much as possible.
>> I
>> do not understand why some people say such bad things about thunder Sky
> and
>> then others want in on a buy. Why does the European group continue to
>> put
>> together buy campaigns and others despise them. Yet thunder Sky is still
> in
>> business. What gives? Enquiring minds want to know, especially mine.
>>
>> Mark Grasser
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On
> Behalf
>> Of Jukka J=E4rvinen
>> Sent: Tuesday, April 15, 2008 6:32 PM
>> To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
>> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Thunder Sky batteries [count me in!]
>>
>> And I have office in TS building... downstairs/bottom floor, main
>> building, back in the left hand side... I can assure you it's not about
>> being close enough..
>>
>> The problem has been that TS did sell stuff that did not meet the
>> original datasheets even remotely. There was no warranty for many
>> reasons and all the bad fame was over them after that stunt.
>>
>> But that wasn't the llast time it happened. I still have a big pile of
>> LMP cells which are failing or already done so by internal corrosion. No
>> warranty due the fact that we got them so cheap in first place. Now
>> that's an extremely good reason and did build my faith/trust against
>> them by -1000. Not to mention the lost hitpoints due massive recalls.
>>
>> LFPs work extremely well on cyclic use but the small and tiny thing
>> called patent infrigment just kills the biz in here. Thou now I can see
>> dozens of small startups selling them like DVDs in Shenzhen markets.
>> LFPs have also quite poor energy density. It's like half of the LCPs.
>>
>> LCPs are.. uh.. so nice and usable. I just love those puppies. They've
>> never let me down so far (since 2002). But now the price has sky
>> rocketed and TS arranged manufacturing of these cells in other factory.
>> =3D> quality wen't out of window. Yes. the same window they keep open
>> always in the "dry room".
>>
>> Overall.. I'm happier with Lithium and the effect has been just the
>> opposite what the pharmaca fennica says. But keep your hat on. It's a
>> jungle out there.
>>
>> -Jukka
>>
>> Mark Grasser kirjoitti:
>>>>>>> For those that don't know, the last time there was a US group buy,
>>> Thundersky took a bunch of batteries that didn't meet even their low
>>> standards and shipped them. They had this pile of batteries sitting
>>> out
>>> on the loading dock that they had already spent money building and
>>> wanted
>>> to cut their losses. They have freely admitted that they did this, but
>>> hey they got paid so they were happy.
>>> It wasn't a question of 'some' of the batteries being bad, they ALL
>>> were
>>> bad.<<<<
>>>
>>> I have been flying to China and Taiwan for 7 years, so often that I had
> to
>>> have pages added to my passport for immigration stamping. I know how
>> dealing
>>> with the Chinese works. I also have heard stories about how this buying
>>> group worked with the Chinese, I understand exactly what happened. You
>> need
>>> to understand the culture if you are going to do business with them.
>>>
>>>>>>> If you're going to deal with TS, I HIGHLY reccomend you have
>>>>>>> someone
>> on
>>> the ground, in China, testing every single battery before it gets
> shipped.
>>> Once they're shipped, TS considers the deal complete. No refunds, no
>>> returns.
>>> If you test them before shipping, you'll still run the chance of some
>>> of
>>> them failing within a couple months, but at least you have a pretty
>>> good
>>> chance of them working the first few times.<<<<
>>>
>>> Peter, You did not read my original e-mail apparently. I have people,
>>> in
>>> China. My people are within truck delivery distance of Thunder Sky. My
>>> people are Chinese, I have been working with them since 2001. They will
> do
>>> all of the interaction with Thunder Sky, they will do the cycle testing
>> and
>>> then return the rejects. Yes I am sure there will be fallout after. I
> have
>>> also read where some buying groups buy plus 10% for that reason.
>>>
>>>>>>> Most of the folks that I've heard about buying from TS recently are
>>> sending someone over to test the batteries before they're shipped.
>>> They
>>> still end up reject cells that pass ThunderSky's "QC". TS must have
>>> accumulated a pretty big pile of these failed cells by now. I wonder
> what
>>> they would do if they got an order from someone silly enough to not
>>> test
>>> them before shipping?<<<<
>>>
>>> If possible I would like to stay away from sending someone to China
>>> just
>> to
>>> test batteries, The way I travel that's a $6,000 to $10,000 bill. Makes
> no
>>> sense. I will tally the personal responses I have received as to those
>>> interested in buying, I will then make the call to my people and get
>>> pricing. I will then post pricing and process and timeline.
>>>
>>> WARRANTY! There are not very many companies in China that offer
>>> warranty.
>>> The way it works is exactly as you see it. Once it leaves the country
>> there
>>> is no warranty. Typically the importer gives the warranty but he also
>>> triples the price to you from what he pays for it. This is how he makes
>>> a
>>> profit and how he is able to provide a warranty. If everyone wants a
>>> warranty I can do that but your price will be triply what they cost. As
>> they
>>> say, you can't have the cake and eat it too.
>>>
>>> Mark Grasser
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> For subscription options, see
>>> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> For subscription options, see
>> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> For subscription options, see
>> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>


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----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Thunder Sky batteries [count me in!]*

Hi Mark and All,

----- Original Message Follows -----
From: "Mark Grasser" <[email protected]>
To: <[email protected]>, "'Electric Vehicle Discussion
List'" <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Thunder Sky batteries [count me in!]
Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2008 10:57:34 -0400

>Peter,
>I think the tone is right on actually,

Then you think differently than the rest of us.
Jukka has done a lot for us, EV's and shouldn't be treated
like that. He was trying to help you and you were rude. As
the expert on TS Jukka tells it like it is. If the truth
hurts your sales then so be it. We try to tell the facts
here at let things fall where they may.

it's just the way I
>write.  But actually I think I DO have it right. I see
>nothing in his post about how to do it, All I see is don't
>do it.

Don't's are often more important than do's. Those
who fail to learn history are bound to repeat it.

>
>I think I have a good plan and I will forge ahead, first
>with a sample test and buy then hopefully one large buy
>after another. I have quite a few commitments already and
>don't plan to disappoint. If it takes a trip to China so be
>it but with good contacts it shouldn't have to happen.

I wish you luck but slapping those trying to help
with actual experience doesn't bode well. Want to bet $10
you'll get screwed too by TS? Just remember you were warned.
Jerry Dycus


>
>Mark Grasser
> =

>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: [email protected]
>[mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Peter
>VanDerWal Sent: Wednesday, April 16, 2008 3:22 AM
>To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
>Subject: Re: [EVDL] Thunder Sky batteries [count me in!]
>
>Dude, you haven't got a clue what you're talking about and
>need to tone it down.
>
>Jukka isn't slamming them, he's telling it like it is. He
>is not a TS representative, he doesn't work for them (never
>has). He's just one of their biggest customers.
>
>He had nothing to do with TS's bad rep, they don't need any
>help there. TS screwed a lot of folks on this list long
>before Jukka ever heard of them.
>Jukka is a European bussinesman that heard about TS and was
>smart enough to actually go to China and check out the
>cells before buying them.
>
>He was/is buying mega quantities of cells from TS and
>reselling them in Europe. Even though he is probably their
>largest customer outside of China, they have no problem
>screwing him too. I suspect the only reason he is still
>dealing with them is because he can't get the cells he
>needs at a price people are willing to pay anywhere else.
>
>So take a chill pill, sit back and look at this
>objectively. Jukka is just warning you about the hazards
>of dealing with TS.
>
>> So to summarize:
>> You are partners but you are not.
>> You have an office there but you haven't been there in
>> months. You are not on good terms with the company
>> engineer or owner, not sure who.
>> You are slamming Thunder Sky in general but you are
>> filling orders and love
>> the LCPs.
>>
>> Instead of replying privately you spread this all over
>> the EV list about how
>> bad Thunder Sky is yet you are the contact to buy Thunder
>> Sky batteries? How
>> does that work? I wonder if maybe you are the problem
>> with the bad PR and the bad batteries coming out of
>> Thunder Sky. I suppose I might be hurting my
>> orders at this point but this smells of stinky tofu!
>>
>>
>> Mark Grasser
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: [email protected]
>> [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf
>> Of Jukka J=E4rvinen
>> Sent: Wednesday, April 16, 2008 8:03 AM
>> To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
>> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Thunder Sky batteries [count me in!]
>>
>> Because I was there already before the shit came down
>>(2003). =

>> I have an office there since we were going to be partners
>> with TS with EU sales and manufacturing. We are still in
>> prosess to put the factory up in here but the Chinese
>> equipment is ... chinese. So we needed to take a reality
>>check. =

>> I also provided one BMS system there for the EV bus but
>> this bus never got lisence to operate on Chinese streets.
>> Also there was some personal issues between me and Dr
>> Lee. I steppen on his toes when I disassembled his system
>> from the bus and installed mine. During the installation
>there was some expencive piece of equipment that got
>> missing. I have my suspects but Winston never got the
>> equipment back. So I got very, very careful after that
>>abtou them. =

>> Anyway. There are good and bad experiences with TS cells.
>> People who have good are still astonished how well they
>> have been working. And the other people who have got
>> crap... have already told their opinions about the TS
>>warranty policies. =

>> This is where the actual problem derives. TS can sell
>> stuff since there is so huge demand and people are
>> willing to take the risk. Even willing to break the laws
>>and disregard the patent issues. =

>> My response time is long due so huge amount on piled
>> work. I have few hundred EV orders and I try to minimize
>> the risks with TS cells. LFP was suddenly out of question
>> and now EVerybody want's it. Even thou I do not think the
>>TS LPF is so marvelous. LCPs rock and are very good. =

>> I have not been at my office for several months.. So
>> actually I do not know it is even there anymore... 
>>
>> -Jukka
>>
>> Mark Grasser kirjoitti:
>>> Jukka,
>>> You have an office here? What is it that you do there? I
>> am curious that you
>>> would take so long to respond. I would like to know as
>>> much as possible. I
>>> do not understand why some people say such bad things
>> about thunder Sky and
>>> then others want in on a buy. Why does the European
>>> group continue to put
>>> together buy campaigns and others despise them. Yet
>> thunder Sky is still in
>>> business. What gives? Enquiring minds want to know,
>>>especially mine. =

>>> Mark Grasser
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: [email protected]
>> [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf
>>> Of Jukka J=E4rvinen
>>> Sent: Tuesday, April 15, 2008 6:32 PM
>>> To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
>>> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Thunder Sky batteries [count me in!]
>>>
>>> And I have office in TS building... downstairs/bottom
>>> floor, main building, back in the left hand side... I
>>> can assure you it's not about being close enough..
>>>
>>> The problem has been that TS did sell stuff that did not
>>> meet the original datasheets even remotely. There was no
>>> warranty for many reasons and all the bad fame was over
>>>them after that stunt. =

>>> But that wasn't the llast time it happened. I still have
>>> a big pile of LMP cells which are failing or already
>>> done so by internal corrosion. No warranty due the fact
>>> that we got them so cheap in first place. Now that's an
>>> extremely good reason and did build my faith/trust
>against them by -1000. Not to mention the lost hitpoints
>>>due massive recalls. =

>>> LFPs work extremely well on cyclic use but the small and
>>> tiny thing called patent infrigment just kills the biz
>>> in here. Thou now I can see dozens of small startups
>>> selling them like DVDs in Shenzhen markets. LFPs have
>>>also quite poor energy density. It's like half of the
>>> LCPs. LCPs are.. uh.. so nice and usable. I just love
>>> those puppies. They've never let me down so far (since
>>> 2002). But now the price has sky rocketed and TS
>>> arranged manufacturing of these cells in other factory.
>=3D> quality wen't out of window. Yes. the same window they
>>> keep open always in the "dry room".
>>>
>>> Overall.. I'm happier with Lithium and the effect has
>>> been just the opposite what the pharmaca fennica says.
>>> But keep your hat on. It's a jungle out there.
>>>
>>> -Jukka
>

_______________________________________________
For subscription options, see
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----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Thunder Sky batteries [count me in!]*

While LFP has some disadvantage of weight, doesn't it have a big improvemen=
t =

in _calendar and cycle life_? Since the biggest issue with lithium is Cost=
, =

doesn't that give a much more favorable cost per mile/per cycle? From what =
I =

understand, with long cycle and calendar life, it can be even cheaper than =

lead per mile.


----- Original Message ----- =

From: "Jukka J=E4rvinen" <[email protected]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, April 16, 2008 8:02 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Thunder Sky batteries [count me in!]

LFP was suddenly out of question and now EVerybody want's it. Even thou I d=
o =

not
think the TS LFP is so marvelous. LCPs rock and are very good.


_______________________________________________
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----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Thunder Sky batteries [count me in!]*

Easy, guys. Careful this thread doesn't get out of hand. Keep it civil. 

David Roden
EVDL Administrator
http://www.evdl.org/


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----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Thunder Sky batteries [count me in!]*

And, isn't LCP the chemistry used in laptops that burns really well?

--Rick



> Dmitri wrote:
> > While LFP has some disadvantage of weight, doesn't it have a big improvem=
> ent =
> 
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Thunder Sky batteries [count me in!]*

Well.. If you take in comparison the LFP-60 and LCP-90. They are nearly =

identical in size and weight. I will use the datasheet values since I do =

not wish to stirr more the thing cooking here 

LFP-60: 3,2V * 60 Ah =3D 192 Wh
LCP-90: 3,6V * 90 Ah =3D 324 Wh

LFP-60: 2000 cycles, 100% DOD 1C cycles, 80% of original capacity left.
LCP-90: 1000 cycles, 100% DOD 1C cycles, 80% of original capacity left.

Now let's take the same vehicle that sits nicely say 60 cells. That =

would be 11 kWh with LFP and 19 kWh with LCP.

We'll take the trip to somewhere warm and nice and we consume exactly 8 =

kWh. That's about 70% DOD on LFP and 40 % DOD on LCP.

LFP: 70% left on cell with 1C cycle at about 3000 cycles.
LCP: 40% left on cell with 1C cycle at about 5000 cycles.

So you can actually take the LCP further on lifetime if you really need =

to get to the warm and fuzzy realityplace. And as extra you'll be able =

to do it without charging at the remote end.

Since EVs are used to go from place A to B you will need to get there. =

It is far from comfort if you need to stop 2 times in between to even =

get there.

After changing my 45 x LCP-200 to 50 x LFP-150... I feel impotent... not =

really  .. but it very ofter falls short on my driving needs.

Sure.. now someone says "But LFPs are soooo safer". Not really. Safety =

comes from the system it self. If you use LCPs corectly they outrun the =

LFP like a evening breeze. Phuf! Just like that. Sui generis.

I've seen excellent energy densisites now from many other LFP vendors. =

I'm excited. But still there is the weight issue. LFP still falls down =

to 100 Wh/kg. And it's not that much better than Ni-MH.

Calendar life is the biggest hoax at the LFP at the moment. If you use =

LCP with same energy profile and by that way keep the cells in lower SOC =

figures (lower voltages) You'll get good calendar life (10+ years).

We are just starting on the learning curve with LFPs. Compared to LCP =

(which actually is LiNiCo from TS, not at all same that has been used in =

laptops and cell phones, more stable but quite similar behaviour) we =

know a lot. Billions of cells made which has been documented well enough.

Do not misunderstand me here. I'm not guru or anything on Lithium cells. =

I just know how TS makes their cells and have been using them for =

years. And develpoed own management method and theory on prolonging the =

EV battery life.

I admit that the LCP cost has gone up alot from TS. But it's mostly =

because they wish to make only LFP nowadays. Cobalt is recycled nowadays =

and is cheap.

-Jukka


Dmitri kirjoitti:
> While LFP has some disadvantage of weight, doesn't it have a big improvem=
ent =

> in _calendar and cycle life_? Since the biggest issue with lithium is Co=
st, =

> doesn't that give a much more favorable cost per mile/per cycle? From wha=
t I =

> understand, with long cycle and calendar life, it can be even cheaper tha=
n =

> lead per mile.
> =

> =

> ----- Original Message ----- =

> From: "Jukka J=E4rvinen" <[email protected]>
> To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
> Sent: Wednesday, April 16, 2008 8:02 AM
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Thunder Sky batteries [count me in!]
> =

> LFP was suddenly out of question and now EVerybody want's it. Even thou I=
do =

> not
> think the TS LFP is so marvelous. LCPs rock and are very good.
> =

> =

> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
> =


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----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Thunder Sky batteries [count me in!]*

One thing I can say as 'DO' for you: Test the cells. But remember that =

there are things that are not detectable from outside what ever you do. =

Like the internal corrosion on pole bolts. That's why you should follow =

your cells throught he manufacturing and see all the manufacturing =

phases. Make sure the girls stacking have hairnets and gloves on. Make =

sure the formation cycling is done correctly. Make sure they do all =

parts right and make sure they do not change the cell internal design =

with out telling it to you.

Buying samples serves nothing if you cannot establish good flow of =

similar cells. Building a multimilion biz on these cells is ok but the =

problem is not technocal.

I can tell you one nice example from the past. I ordered LFP-350 cells =

(before the patent issue was revealed to me) with certain threads on the =

poles. I needed to order some special bolts on them. So I bought a good =

punch for the next shipment too. When that new shipment came (few =

hundred cells) we noticed that the threads were different on the cells. =

WTF! Then I called to Winston and asked about it. Yeah. they changed it =

but forgot to tell anyone. So I had to wait for several weeks for new bolts.

But actually because of this way of operation I feel christmas EVery =

time I get cells. I never know what I'm actually going to get. 

-Jukka



Mark Grasser kirjoitti:
> Peter,
> I think the tone is right on actually, it's just the way I write. 
> But actually I think I DO have it right. I see nothing in his post about =
how
> to do it, All I see is don't do it.
> =

> I think I have a good plan and I will forge ahead, first with a sample te=
st
> and buy then hopefully one large buy after another. I have quite a few
> commitments already and don't plan to disappoint. If it takes a trip to
> China so be it but with good contacts it shouldn't have to happen.
> =

> Mark Grasser
> =

> =

> =

> -----Original Message-----
> From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Beh=
alf
> Of Peter VanDerWal
> Sent: Wednesday, April 16, 2008 3:22 AM
> To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Thunder Sky batteries [count me in!]
> =

> Dude, you haven't got a clue what you're talking about and need to tone it
> down.
> =

> Jukka isn't slamming them, he's telling it like it is. He is not a TS
> representative, he doesn't work for them (never has). He's just one of
> their biggest customers.
> =

> He had nothing to do with TS's bad rep, they don't need any help there. =

> TS screwed a lot of folks on this list long before Jukka ever heard of
> them.
> Jukka is a European bussinesman that heard about TS and was smart enough
> to actually go to China and check out the cells before buying them.
> =

> He was/is buying mega quantities of cells from TS and reselling them in
> Europe. Even though he is probably their largest customer outside of
> China, they have no problem screwing him too.
> I suspect the only reason he is still dealing with them is because he
> can't get the cells he needs at a price people are willing to pay anywhere
> else.
> =

> So take a chill pill, sit back and look at this objectively. Jukka is
> just warning you about the hazards of dealing with TS.
> =

>> So to summarize:
>> You are partners but you are not.
>> You have an office there but you haven't been there in months.
>> You are not on good terms with the company engineer or owner, not sure
>> who.
>> You are slamming Thunder Sky in general but you are filling orders and
>> love
>> the LCPs.
>>
>> Instead of replying privately you spread this all over the EV list about
>> how
>> bad Thunder Sky is yet you are the contact to buy Thunder Sky batteries?
>> How
>> does that work? I wonder if maybe you are the problem with the bad PR and
>> the bad batteries coming out of Thunder Sky. I suppose I might be hurting
>> my
>> orders at this point but this smells of stinky tofu!
>>
>>
>> Mark Grasser
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On
>> Behalf
>> Of Jukka J=E4rvinen
>> Sent: Wednesday, April 16, 2008 8:03 AM
>> To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
>> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Thunder Sky batteries [count me in!]
>>
>> Because I was there already before the shit came down (2003).
>>
>> I have an office there since we were going to be partners with TS with
>> EU sales and manufacturing. We are still in prosess to put the factory
>> up in here but the Chinese equipment is ... chinese. So we needed to
>> take a reality check.
>>
>> I also provided one BMS system there for the EV bus but this bus never
>> got lisence to operate on Chinese streets. Also there was some personal
>> issues between me and Dr Lee. I steppen on his toes when I disassembled
>> his system from the bus and installed mine. During the installation
>> there was some expencive piece of equipment that got missing. I have my
>> suspects but Winston never got the equipment back. So I got very, very
>> careful after that abtou them.
>>
>> Anyway. There are good and bad experiences with TS cells. People who
>> have good are still astonished how well they have been working. And the
>> other people who have got crap... have already told their opinions about
>> the TS warranty policies.
>>
>> This is where the actual problem derives. TS can sell stuff since there
>> is so huge demand and people are willing to take the risk. Even willing
>> to break the laws and disregard the patent issues.
>>
>> My response time is long due so huge amount on piled work. I have few
>> hundred EV orders and I try to minimize the risks with TS cells. LFP was
>> suddenly out of question and now EVerybody want's it. Even thou I do not
>> think the TS LPF is so marvelous. LCPs rock and are very good.
>>
>> I have not been at my office for several months.. So actually I do not
>> know it is even there anymore... 
>>
>> -Jukka
>>
>> Mark Grasser kirjoitti:
>>> Jukka,
>>> You have an office here? What is it that you do there? I am curious that
>> you
>>> would take so long to respond. I would like to know as much as possible.
>>> I
>>> do not understand why some people say such bad things about thunder Sky
>> and
>>> then others want in on a buy. Why does the European group continue to
>>> put
>>> together buy campaigns and others despise them. Yet thunder Sky is still
>> in
>>> business. What gives? Enquiring minds want to know, especially mine.
>>>
>>> Mark Grasser
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On
>> Behalf
>>> Of Jukka J=E4rvinen
>>> Sent: Tuesday, April 15, 2008 6:32 PM
>>> To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
>>> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Thunder Sky batteries [count me in!]
>>>
>>> And I have office in TS building... downstairs/bottom floor, main
>>> building, back in the left hand side... I can assure you it's not about
>>> being close enough..
>>>
>>> The problem has been that TS did sell stuff that did not meet the
>>> original datasheets even remotely. There was no warranty for many
>>> reasons and all the bad fame was over them after that stunt.
>>>
>>> But that wasn't the llast time it happened. I still have a big pile of
>>> LMP cells which are failing or already done so by internal corrosion. No
>>> warranty due the fact that we got them so cheap in first place. Now
>>> that's an extremely good reason and did build my faith/trust against
>>> them by -1000. Not to mention the lost hitpoints due massive recalls.
>>>
>>> LFPs work extremely well on cyclic use but the small and tiny thing
>>> called patent infrigment just kills the biz in here. Thou now I can see
>>> dozens of small startups selling them like DVDs in Shenzhen markets.
>>> LFPs have also quite poor energy density. It's like half of the LCPs.
>>>
>>> LCPs are.. uh.. so nice and usable. I just love those puppies. They've
>>> never let me down so far (since 2002). But now the price has sky
>>> rocketed and TS arranged manufacturing of these cells in other factory.
>>> =3D> quality wen't out of window. Yes. the same window they keep open
>>> always in the "dry room".
>>>
>>> Overall.. I'm happier with Lithium and the effect has been just the
>>> opposite what the pharmaca fennica says. But keep your hat on. It's a
>>> jungle out there.
>>>
>>> -Jukka
>>>
>>> Mark Grasser kirjoitti:
>>>>>>>> For those that don't know, the last time there was a US group buy,
>>>> Thundersky took a bunch of batteries that didn't meet even their low
>>>> standards and shipped them. They had this pile of batteries sitting
>>>> out
>>>> on the loading dock that they had already spent money building and
>>>> wanted
>>>> to cut their losses. They have freely admitted that they did this, but
>>>> hey they got paid so they were happy.
>>>> It wasn't a question of 'some' of the batteries being bad, they ALL
>>>> were
>>>> bad.<<<<
>>>>
>>>> I have been flying to China and Taiwan for 7 years, so often that I had
>> to
>>>> have pages added to my passport for immigration stamping. I know how
>>> dealing
>>>> with the Chinese works. I also have heard stories about how this buying
>>>> group worked with the Chinese, I understand exactly what happened. You
>>> need
>>>> to understand the culture if you are going to do business with them.
>>>>
>>>>>>>> If you're going to deal with TS, I HIGHLY reccomend you have
>>>>>>>> someone
>>> on
>>>> the ground, in China, testing every single battery before it gets
>> shipped.
>>>> Once they're shipped, TS considers the deal complete. No refunds, no
>>>> returns.
>>>> If you test them before shipping, you'll still run the chance of some
>>>> of
>>>> them failing within a couple months, but at least you have a pretty
>>>> good
>>>> chance of them working the first few times.<<<<
>>>>
>>>> Peter, You did not read my original e-mail apparently. I have people,
>>>> in
>>>> China. My people are within truck delivery distance of Thunder Sky. My
>>>> people are Chinese, I have been working with them since 2001. They will
>> do
>>>> all of the interaction with Thunder Sky, they will do the cycle testing
>>> and
>>>> then return the rejects. Yes I am sure there will be fallout after. I
>> have
>>>> also read where some buying groups buy plus 10% for that reason.
>>>>
>>>>>>>> Most of the folks that I've heard about buying from TS recently are
>>>> sending someone over to test the batteries before they're shipped.
>>>> They
>>>> still end up reject cells that pass ThunderSky's "QC". TS must have
>>>> accumulated a pretty big pile of these failed cells by now. I wonder
>> what
>>>> they would do if they got an order from someone silly enough to not
>>>> test
>>>> them before shipping?<<<<
>>>>
>>>> If possible I would like to stay away from sending someone to China
>>>> just
>>> to
>>>> test batteries, The way I travel that's a $6,000 to $10,000 bill. Makes
>> no
>>>> sense. I will tally the personal responses I have received as to those
>>>> interested in buying, I will then make the call to my people and get
>>>> pricing. I will then post pricing and process and timeline.
>>>>
>>>> WARRANTY! There are not very many companies in China that offer
>>>> warranty.
>>>> The way it works is exactly as you see it. Once it leaves the country
>>> there
>>>> is no warranty. Typically the importer gives the warranty but he also
>>>> triples the price to you from what he pays for it. This is how he makes
>>>> a
>>>> profit and how he is able to provide a warranty. If everyone wants a
>>>> warranty I can do that but your price will be triply what they cost. As
>>> they
>>>> say, you can't have the cake and eat it too.
>>>>
>>>> Mark Grasser
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> For subscription options, see
>>>> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> For subscription options, see
>>> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> For subscription options, see
>>> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> For subscription options, see
>> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> For subscription options, see
>> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>>
> =

> =

> _______________________________________________
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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Thunder Sky batteries [count me in!]*

Jukka,

In your cycle spec of LCP-90 did you really mean 1000 cycles or are
both LFP and LCP 2000 cycles? Your later comments and calculation
suggests that the LCP are also 2000 cycles at 100% DOD because
2000 / 40% =3D 5000 cycles of 40% DOD =



Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
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-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behal=
f Of Jukka J=E4rvinen
Sent: Wednesday, April 16, 2008 12:12 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Thunder Sky batteries [count me in!]

Well.. If you take in comparison the LFP-60 and LCP-90. They are nearly ide=
ntical in size and weight. I will use the datasheet values since I do not w=
ish to stirr more the thing cooking here 

LFP-60: 3,2V * 60 Ah =3D 192 Wh
LCP-90: 3,6V * 90 Ah =3D 324 Wh

LFP-60: 2000 cycles, 100% DOD 1C cycles, 80% of original capacity left.
LCP-90: 1000 cycles, 100% DOD 1C cycles, 80% of original capacity left.

Now let's take the same vehicle that sits nicely say 60 cells. That would b=
e 11 kWh with LFP and 19 kWh with LCP.

We'll take the trip to somewhere warm and nice and we consume exactly 8 kWh=
. That's about 70% DOD on LFP and 40 % DOD on LCP.

LFP: 70% left on cell with 1C cycle at about 3000 cycles.
LCP: 40% left on cell with 1C cycle at about 5000 cycles.

So you can actually take the LCP further on lifetime if you really need to =
get to the warm and fuzzy realityplace. And as extra you'll be able to do i=
t without charging at the remote end.

Since EVs are used to go from place A to B you will need to get there. =

It is far from comfort if you need to stop 2 times in between to even get t=
here.

After changing my 45 x LCP-200 to 50 x LFP-150... I feel impotent... not re=
ally  .. but it very ofter falls short on my driving needs.

Sure.. now someone says "But LFPs are soooo safer". Not really. Safety come=
s from the system it self. If you use LCPs corectly they outrun the LFP lik=
e a evening breeze. Phuf! Just like that. Sui generis.

I've seen excellent energy densisites now from many other LFP vendors. =

I'm excited. But still there is the weight issue. LFP still falls down to 1=
00 Wh/kg. And it's not that much better than Ni-MH.

Calendar life is the biggest hoax at the LFP at the moment. If you use LCP =
with same energy profile and by that way keep the cells in lower SOC
figures (lower voltages) You'll get good calendar life (10+ years).

We are just starting on the learning curve with LFPs. Compared to LCP (whic=
h actually is LiNiCo from TS, not at all same that has been used in laptops=
and cell phones, more stable but quite similar behaviour) we know a lot. B=
illions of cells made which has been documented well enough.

Do not misunderstand me here. I'm not guru or anything on Lithium cells. =

I just know how TS makes their cells and have been using them for years. =
And develpoed own management method and theory on prolonging the EV batter=
y life.

I admit that the LCP cost has gone up alot from TS. But it's mostly because=
they wish to make only LFP nowadays. Cobalt is recycled nowadays and is ch=
eap.

-Jukka


Dmitri kirjoitti:
> While LFP has some disadvantage of weight, doesn't it have a big =

> improvement in _calendar and cycle life_? Since the biggest issue =

> with lithium is Cost, doesn't that give a much more favorable cost per =

> mile/per cycle? From what I understand, with long cycle and calendar =

> life, it can be even cheaper than lead per mile.
> =

> =

> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Jukka J=E4rvinen" <[email protected]>
> To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
> Sent: Wednesday, April 16, 2008 8:02 AM
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Thunder Sky batteries [count me in!]
> =

> LFP was suddenly out of question and now EVerybody want's it. Even =

> thou I do not think the TS LFP is so marvelous. LCPs rock and are very =

> good.
> =

> =

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