# Delta Q not charging after LiFePo4 conversion



## major (Apr 4, 2008)

gregdugas said:


> I need for someone to please look over my shoulder: Recently converted
> my 2005 GEM from OEM GEL's to LFP's using (26) HiPower 100AH cells and MiniBMS from Dimitri's Clean Power Auto.
> 
> Problem: Delta Q not charging. Fault Code: Red LED blinking once every 2
> ...


If it is like a GEM I worked on a few months ago, the charger is special programmed for GEM and includes several different algorithms, but all for lead acid and likely all requiring the temperature sensor. I suspect you'd have to send the charger in for new firmware. Or you might try putting the temp sensor back in and see if it works. The BMS shutdown would then have to be on the AC line into the charger.


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## TexasCotton (Sep 18, 2008)

major said:


> If it is like a GEM I worked on a few months ago, the charger is special programmed for GEM and includes several different algorithms, but all for lead acid and likely all requiring the temperature sensor. I suspect you'd have to send the charger in for new firmware. Or you might try putting the temp sensor back in and see if it works. The BMS shutdown would then have to be on the AC line into the charger.


Question
Delta Q, GEM, Elcon, and TCCH all physically look the similar(obviously each is rated) is this 4 mfg. I understand algorithuim must set to get desired top voltage.


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## frodus (Apr 12, 2008)

Greg,

I forgot, did we reprogram your charger? You may need lithium curves in there.


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## gregdugas (Nov 14, 2012)

No Travis - my DeltaQ is an OEM model incapable of being reprogrammed. My understanding was that the DeltaQ did not need to be reprogrammed in that the LVC, HVC and Batt Temp Sensor limits were all to be controlled by the miniBMS system?? 
Did I misunderstand? I've sent you pics of the actual hookup which may help determine if I mis-wired the BMS system. Thanks for the reply! Greg


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## frodus (Apr 12, 2008)

Yeah, but it is possible, as an older unit, that you need to keep that temp sensor.... I wouldn't know, I haven't dealt with a non programmable unit.

Still have the sensor?


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## gregdugas (Nov 14, 2012)

Travis: 
I've never been able to visually identify a sensor as attached TO the DeltaQ. Hence, I assumed that it was internally located within its housing. Accordingly, the only change I've made from the original configuration was to disconnect its White wire from the Black [which was looped to the (-)72V Batt #1 lug & the PSDM Shunt Resistor] and to the BMS Head Board terminal.
The attached diagram shows a "Twisted Circuit" in the loop attaching the sensor to the charger as well as the (-) 72V. However, I'm still unable to find any exterior component that could remotely be the sensor. Do you know if the temp sensor is in fact a separate component or where I might find it?


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

gregdugas said:


> Travis:
> I've never been able to visually identify a sensor as attached TO the DeltaQ. Hence, I assumed that it was internally located within its housing. Accordingly, the only change I've made from the original configuration was to disconnect its White wire from the Black [which was looped to the (-)72V Batt #1 lug & the PSDM Shunt Resistor] and to the BMS Head Board terminal.
> The attached diagram shows a "Twisted Circuit" in the loop attaching the sensor to the charger as well as the (-) 72V. However, I'm still unable to find any exterior component that could remotely be the sensor. Do you know if the temp sensor is in fact a separate component or where I might find it?


The DeltaQ temp sensors I have seen are on the negative ring terminal which goes onto the battery negative post. Both the black and white wires run to the device. It is a black sugar cube size plastic box on the ring terminal itself.

edit: You can see it in this photo: http://www.mightyboyev.com/Delta-Q charger arrives.htm


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## gregdugas (Nov 14, 2012)

Aha said the blind man . . . . 
I considered that the old connector on the negative battery post (see pic) which joined the two black looping wires to the (-)72V lug might have been the sensor. But on closer scrutiny I dismissed it after deciding it was merely crimping the 2 wires together - and nothing else.
So you think this is it?? If so, and in considering Travis' previous suggestion to reconnect it, any suggestions on which legs of the reconfigured LFP/BMS wiring to do so? 
[Out of ignorance, I would have assumed that it might conflict with the BMS temp sensor controls?]
Thanks for you input Major. It's greatly appreciated! Greg


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

gregdugas said:


> Aha said the blind man . . . .
> I considered that the old connector on the negative battery post (see pic) which joined the two black looping wires to the (-)72V lug might have been the sensor. But on closer scrutiny I dismissed it after deciding it was merely crimping the 2 wires together - and nothing else.
> So you think this is it?? If so, and in considering Travis' previous suggestion to reconnect it, any suggestions on which legs of the reconfigured LFP/BMS wiring to do so?
> [Out of ignorance, I would have assumed that it might conflict with the BMS temp sensor controls?]
> Thanks for you input Major. It's greatly appreciated! Greg


Yep, that's it. I would rewire to the original GEM diagram and not to the BMS. Like I said in my first post, without reprogramming the DeltaQ, you will have to figure how to have the BMS interrupt AC input to the charger or possibly with that interlock wire (but I am unsure about that).


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## dimitri (May 16, 2008)

major said:


> Yep, that's it. I would rewire to the original GEM diagram and not to the BMS. Like I said in my first post, without reprogramming the DeltaQ, you will have to figure how to have the BMS interrupt AC input to the charger or possibly with that interlock wire (but I am unsure about that).


I second Major's advice , don't mess with temp sensor, put it back the way it was and make sure charger works without BMS attached to it at all. Then use SSR relay inline with charger's AC input and wire SSR to BMS as shown in BMS manual.


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## frodus (Apr 12, 2008)

Lets start simple. The DeltaQ can run with or without the sensor. It has nothing to do with faults, it only throttles back if it's cold with Lead Acid. If you connect the white wire directly to the Pack Negative, it enables the charger without a sensor. None of the flashing red LED lights indicate an issue with the temp sensor..... you're barking down the wrong hole.

I emailed Greg a troubleshooting guide. Greg, if you could, read it, and post the exact error code, as laid out by that guide.


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## gregdugas (Nov 14, 2012)

Thanks Travis:
As noted in my first posting the Fault Code= Red LED blinks once every ~2 seconds (2nd LED stays amber). I've attached the GEM Delta-Q QuiQ troubleshooting guide. Please note the highlighted part below [1 Flash]: "Temp Out of Range 1) The battery is too Hot or too Cold to charge." 
Inasmuch as there was no longer a temp sensor, I concluded the charger registered the same condition as an out-of-range temperature. [The User's Guide you sent is for a QuiQ-912. With mine being QuiQ-910 would that make a possible difference in the fault codes?]
However, in a follow-up attempt at troubleshooting I totally disconnected the BMS system and reconnected the temp sensor to OEM configuration: result was same error code. I then removed temp sensor altogether and connected White wire from DeltaQ to battery negative post with a second wire going from there to the shunt resistor lug on the PSDM: result was the same error code. Thinking voltage may have been too high with 26 cells, I connected 24 and then only 21 cells - all resulting with the identical fault code in both attempts. Arrgh! 
Maybe I should just buy a new charger with a LFP algorithm. In that event, could I buy a 96v for use with the 26 cells (=91V) along with the BMS package?


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## frodus (Apr 12, 2008)

That's a different manual than I've got, so I won't be of much help at this point. Have you called a GEM dealership about the error code?

If it doesn't work with the original temp sensor AND with 24-cells, then I suspect there's something more to it than the temp sensor and cell-count. Did you power off the charger for 10+ seconds before trying again?

A 96V charger won't go that low, only the 72V deltaQ does.


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## gregdugas (Nov 14, 2012)

Travis:
The main wire coming from the Delta Q consists of 4 leads: White, Black, Green & Red. 
The White wire is connected to 1 of 2 wires forming a part of the temp sensor. The temp sensor on the GEM is a ring terminal located on the negative terminal of Batt 1. Its 2nd wire is connected to the "shunt resistor" lug of the GEM PSDM. 
The Red wire connects to the 72V lug on the rear of the PSDM; 
The Green connects to the charger interlock, 
and the Black connects to the (-) 72V lug of the Motor Controller.[See 2nd Schematic below] {Also note that a connection is also made between the Shunt Resistor and the Motor Controller's (-)72V terminal}

The 1st pic details the change in wiring when incorporating the BMS system pursuant to your instructions wherein the temp sensor is removed. The White wire is rerouted to the H-Com terminal of the BMS head board. The H-NC terminal is wired to the Shunt Resistor of the PSDM.

So this $24 questions is why the Delta Q displays a fault code of a red LED blinking once every couple of seconds as a result of the battery pack changing from a set of OEM GEL's to 100Ah/3.5V LFP??


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## frodus (Apr 12, 2008)

Most likely it's because the 26-cell pack voltage is outside of the voltage levels that is programmed into the charger.


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## gregdugas (Nov 14, 2012)

What charger and config do you have to offer that best complements the 26 100AH/3.5 LFP cells?


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## frodus (Apr 12, 2008)

26 cells is an oddball... can you do 24?


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## gregdugas (Nov 14, 2012)

Sure I can reduce down to 24. 
However, regarding your earlier comment that the 26 cells are probably outside the voltage range of the charger - what could be the explanation when I went down to 21 cells and still received the fault code??


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## frodus (Apr 12, 2008)

They're two unrelated topics.

I have no idea why your charger doesn't work with 21s as opposed to 26s. It's not behaving correctly (maybe because it's such an old model, or it's custom for GEM). It doesn't work with and without the thermal sensor.

The reason I asked about 24s because chargers for lifepo4 are usually set up for multiples of 4. So 12s/16s/20s/24s etc. It's much harder to get 26s chargers.



Was your charge even working before you installed it? Have you tried taking everything out of the circuit and connecting the charger directly to the battery (nothing else in between)?


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