# ADC L91-4003 - SEPEX and REGEN??



## eric-ev (Apr 28, 2009)

How can I tell if this motor is capable of sepex and regen, for use with a 500amp sepex&regen Kelly controller?

http://www.evmotors.com.au/products/download/L91-4003.pdf
Its PDF seems to indicate it is compatable, but it only has 4 poles. Is this correct?


----------



## TheSGC (Nov 15, 2007)

The ADC L91-4003 is a series wound motor, not a SEPEX, so no it cannot work with a SEPEX controller and it cannot do regen. Regen with series wound motors is difficult, and to the best of my knowledge there is no reliable controller that can do it. And they few series wound motors that could possibly do regen need interpoles, and I only know of Kostov motors that have them. 

All the ADC Motors and Warp motors you see at EV suppliers are series wound and Regen is not an option with any controller at the moment. That may change soon, though. (Qer and Tesseract from this forum are building a controller that may have DC regen in the future)

D&D makes a few 6.7" SEPEX motors, but I don't know how powerful they are. Here is one: http://www.electricmotorsport.com/store/ems_ev_parts_motors_sepex.php
I think one of these kits have been used sucessfully in a Toyota Tercel conversion.


----------



## eric-ev (Apr 28, 2009)

So even though there are seperate electrical connection points for the field coils, seperate to the armature connection, it won't do sepex OR regen... is this because the armature only has 4 pole connection, or because its a "series" motor not a "PM" motor?

Does this still leave the l91-4003 a good choice for size/power/weight, or should I look for a better option?


----------



## TheSGC (Nov 15, 2007)

ereckerdeet said:


> So even though there are seperate electrical connection points for the field coils, seperate to the armature connection, it won't do sepex OR regen... is this because the armature only has 4 pole connection, or because its a "series" motor not a "PM" motor?
> 
> Does this still leave the l91-4003 a good choice for size/power/weight, or should I look for a better option?


It's because this is a Series motor, and the terminals are separated so the motor can be reversed. A series motor and SEPEX have different windings. A "PM" motor (Permanent Magnet) is a different type of motor, and not the same as a SEPEX.

What vehicle is the motor going in?


----------



## eric-ev (Apr 28, 2009)

Thanks for the quick and accurate info. Please see the main e-bike build post at:
http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forum...ng-build-82-kawasaki-kz750-cruiser-31042.html

I'm in the air about using an ADC A00-4009 or the more powerful L91-4003. I'm also suprised someone didn't tell me to ditch the kely sep-ex/regen controller I posted about!


----------



## TheSGC (Nov 15, 2007)

ereckerdeet said:


> Thanks for the quick and accurate info. Please see the main e-bike build post at:
> http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forum...ng-build-82-kawasaki-kz750-cruiser-31042.html
> 
> I'm in the air about using an ADC A00-4009 or the more powerful L91-4003. I'm also suprised someone didn't tell me to ditch the kely sep-ex/regen controller I posted about!


The L91 has dual shafts, just FYI, I don't know if they will have use in a motorcycle. If you don't plan on using dual shafts, you could go for the ADC K91-4003, which is more powerful than the A00-4009, but single shaft and smaller than the L91. I used a K91 in a Honda Civic for a few months and it worked fine pushing around a 2600 lbs car and the K91 has been used in motorcycles with excellent results. 

As for the controller, you will need a series wound controller. A Curtis or a Kelly KDH should work. I used a Kelly KDH09401 96 Volt 400 AMP Series/PM with REGEN (Regen only works for PM motors, disabled for series) and it has worked fine with the K91.


----------



## eric-ev (Apr 28, 2009)

Good catch, I didn't notice the L91 was a dualie!

I think the K91-4003 will end up being the best bet, and it allows some growth room up to 96 volts if I become dissatisfied with 72. Thanks again, I'm sure I'll return as soon as boxes start coming in! 

Do you mean KDH09400A?? I don't see the Kelly controller you mentioned.
Do we know what voltage range the KDH09400A will work at - i.e. high and low cutoff? Can I use it with a 60v, 72v pack until I get things nailed down? Can i handle 120v or is 96 the limit?

Sorry mods, I know I'm getting off track of the motor discussion...


----------



## eric-ev (Apr 28, 2009)

OKAY, now I'm torn between K91-4003 and A00-4009 motors.

KTA says K is good 48-96V, 8hp cont, 35 peak, at 400A. and, A is good 36-72V, 4-6hp cont, 28 peak at 500A.

Then, [email protected] says K has LESS HP than A, but costs more??? "_The A00-4009 has more hp (12 hp continuous at 72V; 20 hp peak) The K91 is 10 hp at 96V"_

I'm starting the bike at 72V (6 12V batts), and I'm down to deciding which motor to use. Also to consider is whether to get 72V 600A controller or 96V 400A controller. I may add the 2 extra batteries LATER if I need more speed.....

Decisions decisions. Any advice on which motor would be better suited?


----------



## TheSGC (Nov 15, 2007)

Yeah, the new version is the KDH09400A non-regen version. (which is what you want) The KDH09400A is useful from 24v to 96 volts and can't go higher, or you will blow it up. The High Voltage Lockout tops at 120 Volts, but should be set to 116 volts for safety. It's a programmable controller and you use a PC application to program the voltage cutoff, current limits, acceleration, etc.

As for the A00 being 12 HP at 72 volts, I think that is true. However, you can't take it past 72 volts as that is it's max. If you want higher voltage, you will need the K91 or a larger motor.


----------



## frodus (Apr 12, 2008)

Get the K91.... the A00 is built as a 36V motor and overvolted. Highest curve I've seen on it is 50V.... The K91 is built as a 72V motor and has curves for up to 96V. The A00 has less HP and torque. The K91 is the same motor I used in my VFR conversion (www.evfr.net). Its a torqy little motor (56lbs) and good HP when used at higher voltages.

BOB is wrong about it having less HP, I've got the torque/HP curves right in front of me. At 50V the A00 has a PEAK of 12HP, at 72V its got ~20hp... but the K91 will do 7.8 hp continuous and 22hp peak at 72V, at 96V its got 9.7hp continuous and a peak of 29HP. The K91 has larger brushes, can handle higher current and has larger windings.


----------



## DavidDymaxion (Dec 1, 2008)

You have multiple choices (not all are good choices!):


Spin the motor faster (as you said)
Buck up the voltage (as you said)
Increase the field current
Lessen the armature voltage (separate field power, and switch armature pack from series to parallel, not a very elegant solution)
If you have twin motors, switch the armatures from parallel to series
Charge a subset of the batteries in the pack, and rotate which ones get charged (a Rube Goldberg solution)
There are some even more Rube Goldbergy "solutions"
The 3rd option is the easiest, but only works up to a point and not at low rpms. Options 4 and 5 have the hazard that if you just did it by big switches, you could induce wheel skidding braking -- so you'd need some form of continuous control or a current limiting resistor. If you have a simple control system, a transmission would be helpful to spin the motor faster for regen.



makecar said:


> To have regen on a sep-ex/shunt motor, don't you have to be going faster (downshift for faster rpm's) than you were driving unless a fancy flyback modulation schem is employed?


----------

