# Warp11 Hv



## Dustin_mud (May 22, 2012)

Has any used the high volt warp motor in a street car yet, if so how's the preformance? Along with my crawler build a buddy and me are looking to do reliable street killer. I see most people in racing running dual motors but we are looking for good preformance out of a single. We are looking into using a fox body mustang with glass finders, hood, doors,and trunk lid. Thoughts on drivetrain are the warp11 Hv with a 2spd and a soliton1 controller. Would this setup preform as well as a v8 mustang or camaro?


----------



## DavidDymaxion (Dec 1, 2008)

If the batteries can dish out all the power the Soliton1 can accept, and if the motor can utilize it all, you'd have about the power of a 4th Gen LS1 Camaro. You can buy batteries that do it, but I don't know if the Warp can handle all the power that the Soliton1 can dish out.

I'd suggest you head to http://www.NEDRA.com and look at the setups of the cars and their ETs, and use that as a guide.

In any case, lightening the car is a great idea! Keeping the tranny would be a good idea, for good 1st and 2nd gear acceleration.



Dustin_mud said:


> Has any used the high volt warp motor in a street car yet, if so how's the preformance? Along with my crawler build a buddy and me are looking to do reliable street killer. I see most people in racing running dual motors but we are looking for good preformance out of a single. We are looking into using a fox body mustang with glass finders, hood, doors,and trunk lid. Thoughts on drivetrain are the warp11 Hv with a 2spd and a soliton1 controller. Would this setup preform as well as a v8 mustang or camaro?


----------



## Dustin_mud (May 22, 2012)

I took a look on the site and couldn't really find any specs on cars other then volts.


----------



## somanywelps (Jan 25, 2012)

valerun's E46s are running around with Warp 11HV's and Soliton 1's. 

One of them is full voltage, one of them is 270 nominal, and something like 220-230 @1000A.


----------



## DavidDymaxion (Dec 1, 2008)

Dustin: Then use the NEDRA.com info to Google on a particular car to find out more about it.

so many welps: Thanks for that data point. Is "Full Voltage" 336V or the near 400V max of the controller? Why don't both motors have the same max voltage?

Anyway, 230V at 1000A is 230 kW. After motor efficiency that's about 170 kW or about 230 hp at the flywheel -- so make that more like 3rd gen Camaro performance for a that single Warp 11 HV -- but it sounds like the other one is more powerful.


somanywelps said:


> valerun's E46s are running around with Warp 11HV's and Soliton 1's.
> 
> One of them is full voltage, one of them is 270 nominal, and something like 220-230 @1000A.


----------



## Yabert (Feb 7, 2010)

The combo of Soliton 1 and Warp 11HV will give you a peak power of around 240-280 hp at motor shaft with proper battery pack (96 to 100S in mind (307v to 320v nominal).

That will be really fun in your car (especially with two speed tran), but not crazy!
If you need crazy performance, you will need to choose a Zilla 2K or the awesome Soliton Shiva.


----------



## Dustin_mud (May 22, 2012)

The motor will be able to stand all those amps?


----------



## GerhardRP (Nov 17, 2009)

Dustin_mud said:


> The motor will be able to stand all those amps?


Read this thread, particularly post 451

http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forum...oto-ev-project-28287p46.html?highlight=bimoto

Gerhard


----------



## Yabert (Feb 7, 2010)

Well, yes, but not in any condition and not for long time.

From what I know, the Warp motor can take up to 2000A for few seconds. Some dragracer push up to 2000A inside this motor.
The only other reference I know is Crodriver who pushed 1600A in his Warp 11 HV on the dyno.... like GerhardRP showed.


----------



## Bowser330 (Jun 15, 2008)

You want a street demon?...then model your build off of this RX7...

http://evalbum.com/4222
0-60 ~3.5 sec.

The Rx7 has the same components as the White Zombie...which ran a 10.4 sec 1/4 mile with some amazingly unaffordable kokam pouch cells...

Notice that the graph shows 2000 motor amps is being drawn all the way up to 3000rpm and 1000 motor amps is being drawn all the way up to 5500rpm! Reason being is the amazing cells he has which dont sag much at all and when drawing 1000A bounce back to ~320V, in Series mode 160V to each motor which spin up to 5500rpm...so if your battery pack starts @ 400V max (3.4v/cell), 374V (3.2v/cell), sags 20% = 300V, so 150V each, then if 160V = 5500rpm then 150V = ~5156rpm. If 1000A = 200ftlbs in a Impulse9 then 2X = 400ftlbs @ 5156rpm = 393ehp


----------



## Dustin_mud (May 22, 2012)

Looks like a killer car and the zombie is a fast fast car, but I would like to keep only one motor. Thanks for the info and links guys, keep them coming


----------



## Bowser330 (Jun 15, 2008)

Dustin_mud said:


> Looks like a killer car and the zombie is a fast fast car, but I would like to keep only one motor. Thanks for the info and links guys, keep them coming


Is there a particular reason why you want to go single motor? 
If it's cost then keep in mind the impulse9 is about 1/2 the price of a Warp11HV...If its just simplicity of the build then I understand, and the Warp11HV would be one of the best if not the best single motor to go with.

However if you are choosing a single motor, you will need a more powerful controller, something giving you 2000A, you will not obtain the performance of a 2011 5.0 V8 Mustang with the a single motor and a 1000A controller. If 1000A = 300ftlbs in a Warp11HV then 2000A =~ 600ftlbs.










2000rpm = 250ftlbs wtq
3000rpm = 300ftlbs wtq
4000rpm = 350ftlbs wtq

2011 Mustang 5.0 GT Auto transmission gear ratios:
1st 4.17 * 3.15 = 13.1 
2nd 2.34 * 3.15 = 7.37
3rd 1.52 * 3.15 = 4.79
4th 1.14 * 3.15 = 3.59
5th 0.87 
6th 0.69 
Final drive 3.15:1


----------



## drgrieve (Apr 14, 2011)

How do you compare a ICE engine to a electric motor (EM)? They perform very differently. Using peak values and matching doesn't seem to make much sense.

I'm not even aware of a rule of thumb that people may use?

1. The starting torque of the EM is much higher than ICE, but then a ICE can cheat by dropping the clutch.
2. The effective RPM band of the EM is much wider
3. Generally the ICE torque peaks at a higher RPM giving more hp.

Do you ignore "tricks" and just add up the area under the curve?

Measure 0-60 (which favours EM) or measure 0-120 mph? If you just measure 60-120 that would be harder to beat.


----------



## Bowser330 (Jun 15, 2008)

drgrieve said:


> How do you compare a ICE engine to a electric motor (EM)? They perform very differently. Using peak values and matching doesn't seem to make much sense.
> 
> I'm not even aware of a rule of thumb that people may use?
> 
> ...


It doesn't match up and I wasn't doing that I was just providing data to the OP who asked for help on a system that was similar in performance to a ford v8. 

Right the e-motor has the starting torque but if you don't provide enough voltage then it falls off at higher rpm. 2000a draw causes significant sag to even the best packs. So that 600ftlbs tq that I stated before may only be avialable upto maybe 2000rpm. 

High revving ac induction motors like the ones tesla uses do have higher effective rpm bands so with lower power they are able to have similar performance to ices. However dc technology doesn't have the rpm infact the larger motor you get the lower the peak rpm you get. You need voltage for rpm but you need amps for torque and you cant have both peaking at the sametime unless you have awesome batteries.

A good 0-60 in the e-motor requires good gearing strategy.

There are differences so comparing isnt easy but maybe just comparing the area under the curve like you said is okay.


----------



## Dustin_mud (May 22, 2012)

I was alway brought up with the k.i.s.s method of building(keep it simple stupid) so single motor seem a lot more simple for my first preformance build. I was thinking on a 320v pack and set the controller at around 1400 or 1500amp, which I would think would be a killer. I'm looking into the zilla 2k but I do have a friend who thinks he can build a controller, know any info or thread I can send him on building one?


----------



## GerhardRP (Nov 17, 2009)

Dustin_mud said:


> I was alway brought up with the k.i.s.s method of building(keep it simple stupid) so single motor seem a lot more simple for my first preformance build. I was thinking on a 320v pack and set the controller at around 1400 or 1500amp, which I would think would be a killer. I'm looking into the zilla 2k but I do have a friend who thinks he can build a controller, know any info or thread I can send him on building one?


Unless your friend has already built a reliable 1000A controller, don't count on a higher power one producing anything but smoke.


----------



## Dustin_mud (May 22, 2012)

Nice...lol


----------



## Bowser330 (Jun 15, 2008)

now now, no reason to be so harsh...we don't know the skill sets his friend has...

Dustin there is a DIY 144V (144V nominal so ~158V max charged) 500A controller available from Paul&Sabrina for 600$ (http://www.paulandsabrinasevstuff.com/store/page3.html)

Your friend can start there, build that controller up, and then expand on the control and power sections to enable it to handle more voltage and amperage...I also heard that Paul has already started on a 1000A option so you could email him and they might sell you the kit with parts for the 1000A version...

Even if the 1000A version was 1000$ from P&S.com you could deviate from your KISS method, get two 1000A controllers for 2000$ and get two Warp9 motors for 3800$ = Total = 5,800$ vs. Soliton1 3000$ + Warp11HV = 3600$ = 6,600$

Jack Rickard's Dyno shows Warp9 delivering 250ftlbs of torque with 1000A which would be 500fltbs with dual motors & controllers!

Warp11HV would deliver ~300fltbs w/ 1000A


----------



## Dustin_mud (May 22, 2012)

Finally got to read most of BMW build and very impressed on what he got out of a 11Hv


----------



## Bowser330 (Jun 15, 2008)

Not sure if you read this in the thread or not, but Crodriver's Warp11HV was not off the shelf, it was "built" e.g. additional kevlar banding, higher speed bearings, higher voltage terminals, forced air cooling, etc, etc.


----------



## Dustin_mud (May 22, 2012)

Yes I seen that it was a built motor, but I also thought he had that built before the Hv's came out?....never mind I found where he had the "built", are these mods someone could do with a shop?


----------



## Dustin_mud (May 22, 2012)

Also I'm not looking for the almost 700hp he has, I'm more looking for 450 to 500.


----------



## danh818 (Dec 14, 2011)

Dustin,
I am working on a Porsche 944 conversion using an HV11, WarpDrive Industrial 360v 1400amp, and using a Gear Vendors overdrive as the transmission. I am quite confident that this combination will yield ample power for a "performance" street car.


----------



## Dustin_mud (May 22, 2012)

What kind of power are you looking to put down?


----------



## danh818 (Dec 14, 2011)

My '87 944 N/A came stock with only 150hp and the Turbo S eventually made 250hp. So I plan to start around 300hp. With a curb weight close to 2500lbs that seems like it ought to be enough car for me, but I'm usually not satisfied until I break something. I do intend to push the controller to its 360v 1400amp limit after getting the weigh balance and suspension dialed in. 
I'm sure it won't be long before I hatch a plan to liquid cool the thing and give it as much current as this simple equation will allow: 360V*1400amp=Nm>$/wallet


----------



## Dustin_mud (May 22, 2012)

So is my math right? A 320v pack with 1400a will give around 600hp at the shaft yes?


----------



## Dustin_mud (May 22, 2012)

I know there's stuff like sag to worry about with batts, I still have a lot to learn about them. I read that pack made with a123s and headways work better for high power conversions, I'll have a budget of 10 to 13k for batts. What's my best option?


----------



## John Metric (Feb 26, 2009)

Dustin_mud said:


> So is my math right? A 320v pack with 1400a will give around 600hp at the shaft yes?


Use applied motor voltage times applied motor current, that is your motor input. Then multiply by motor efficiency, 80-90% depending on heat and other factors. Then take off about 10% for drivetrain efficiency. That would be your rear wheel kiloewatts, times 1.341 for rear wheel horsepower RWHP.

Or if you want 300 rear wheel horsepower, calculate backward and see what you have to put into the motor. Then build a pack to put out those kilowatts at the sag level. Knock off 1% for controller efficiency, a few more percent for cabling and connections. Usefull to find a sag curve, amps versus voltage.

Then remember that is peak power, only made during the period before you motor emf starts to fight you. If you can use gearing to keep the motor in that rpm band to make that power all the time. But remember the Warp motors have about a 200amp continuous rating so don't put out 1400 amps for too long.


----------



## Dustin_mud (May 22, 2012)

Does anyone make upgrades for the 11hv to make it withstand the power I want to make, I have read there's a shop that can do the work but sounds shady. Would like to do the work myself if someone builds the parts


----------



## DIYguy (Sep 18, 2008)

It's not so much about the "power u want to make", it's about for how long u want to make it. The Warp 11 is probably about a 20 or 25 hp motor approximately. This is a continuous rating. Like all electric motors, you can "over power" it for shorter time. 
If you want continuous high power (unlikely, but possible) then, you need to look at water cooled AC perhaps or an air cooled motor with a higher continuous rating.
There are many mods done to improve (protect) a motor from destruction. . but it is very specific to the kind of damage anticipated. i.e., high rpm, prolonged higher current, higher voltages etc.
There are 8" motors taking two thousand amps. . . but for short times.
What is it that you want to do, and for how long?


----------



## Dustin_mud (May 22, 2012)

Little 1/8th drags, road track racing, but mostly street beating. A swiss army knife of racing so to speak. Lol


----------



## DIYguy (Sep 18, 2008)

Dustin_mud said:


> Little 1/8th drags, road track racing, but mostly street beating. A swiss army knife of racing so to speak. Lol


The 1/8 or 1/4 mile is easier to address. Perhaps the street beating is similar. As for the road track racing. . . you need to define power levels vs time.


----------



## Bowser330 (Jun 15, 2008)

Dutin read the blog posts about Jack's Cobra build...here is one you may find interesting...

http://jackrickard.blogspot.com/2011/11/elecobra-thrill-of-victory-and-agony-of.html

check out the dynos, its using a warp11hv and a warpdrive 1400A controller

max horsepower is 182hp @ 2550rpm starting at 220V and sagging 25% to 169V.


----------



## Batterypoweredtoad (Feb 5, 2008)

Bowser330 said:


> Dutin read the blog posts about Jack's Cobra build...here is one you may find interesting...
> 
> http://jackrickard.blogspot.com/2011/11/elecobra-thrill-of-victory-and-agony-of.html
> 
> ...


Why was he using a regular warP11 type pack with a warP11HV?


----------



## Dustin_mud (May 22, 2012)

I was wondering the same thing


----------



## danh818 (Dec 14, 2011)

Jacks cobra is one of the reasons I chose to go with the 11hv.
I spent hours upon hours compiling research from the EVTV blogs/videos and many more on this forum, as well as studying heavily all info in could find on John Metric's "DC Plasma" and John Wayland's "White Zombie". Even then I wasn't satisfied, so I figured I should just call up NetGain and see what they had to say.
I ended up speaking with George himself. I asked him a ton of questions and he was more than generous with his time (Thanks George). We talked about different motor and controller options, gearing and probably a hundred other variables. I hung up the phone with a solid understanding of his product and what it is capable of within it's recommend limits. 
This was great, however a new problem had surfaced. For those not familier with the Porsche 944, it has a transaxle, meaning the transmission is combined in one unit with the differential at the rear of the car. That by itself is a good thing, it actually gave the factory car almost perfect weight distribution. Alas though my 944 was born without a turbo so the tranny and diff are somewhat weaker than the turbo version. I needed to find a diff to handle the torque of the 11hv and the correct gear ratios to run. After a bit more research and a few calls to some petrol-headed friends I had my answers.
Out here in So. Cal there is company that does a lot differentials for 4x4 and hotrods called Currie; they make a ford 9" just like the "Zombie" but this one is independent so can retain the factory rear suspension. Differential problem solved - a bare 9" IRS housing that I could mount in place of the factory transaxle. 
Now for the 'transmission'. The 11hv would develop enough torque at lower RPMs, but how to keep it in the power band for road driving? - Enter the Gear Vendors overdrive. With a 1:1 'first' gear and a .78 'second' feeding into a 4.86 rear end I was reasonably sure this is was a good solution. After one last look at the dyno curves from Jacks cobra I called EV Source (NetGain distributor and maker of the warpdrive controllers) and placed my order. 

Disclaimer: non of this has been tested, not yet anyway, it's all just figures on paper. 

I should have the proof in a few weeks once I drop the motor in.
I really should start a build log, but I'm not much one for documentation. I will surely though report my results once the car is off its jack stands and back on the road.


----------



## onegreenev (May 18, 2012)

Please do some documentation and photos to show. It helps others learn what is needed. I am working on my 66 Bug and I have an older model 11" Kostov motor and it has tons of torque and I can't use 1st or 2nd because of tranny hop. It hops real hard and bad. I need the torque bars to eliminate the torque hop that the VW is really well known to do. I am not sure how many have used an 11" motor in a little bug. Be aware of the great torque that your motor will provide. I have a Stage II pressure plate. If you go with any thing other than Stage II you should also look into hydraulic assist for your clutch. I may do that anyway. It is one stiff pressure plate. 

But document and include photos. It is a good thing to do. Photos help if you do before and after. 

Pete


----------



## nucleus (May 18, 2012)

*9 Inch Ford IRS*

You might want to consider the dutchman axle version, it is a cast housing and costs less:

http://www.dutchmanaxles.com/products/irs-housing-axle-package-cv-style


----------



## danh818 (Dec 14, 2011)

Sadly I had to replace my iPhone before getting the pictures of the motor mounted up to the Gear Vendors off of it. I only have pictures of the work from this week - roll cage installation - just boring pics of tubing being welded. I've got the two separated again so that I can begin to fabricate motor mounts. Once those are done I will be sure to post lots of pics and info.


----------



## danh818 (Dec 14, 2011)

*Re: 9 Inch Ford IRS*



nucleus said:


> You might want to consider the dutchman axle version, it is a cast housing and costs less:
> 
> http://www.dutchmanaxles.com/products/irs-housing-axle-package-cv-style



Thanks for pointing that out. In hindsight I could have saved some major cash.
I was aware of the Dutchman IRS, but at the time I was looking at having the pinion point towards the rear of the car. Currie is local to me and they offered to swap the fill and drain plugs because the rear end was to be mounted upside down. The original plan was to put the motor and trans in the rear and balance the car by putting all my batteries (CALBs at the time) in the front. That's all out the window. The final plan calls for the motor and trans up front with all the batteries in back (A123's)


----------



## Bowser330 (Jun 15, 2008)

*Re: 9 Inch Ford IRS*



danh818 said:


> Thanks for pointing that out. In hindsight I could have saved some major cash.
> I was aware of the Dutchman IRS, but at the time I was looking at having the pinion point towards the rear of the car. Currie is local to me and they offered to swap the fill and drain plugs because the rear end was to be mounted upside down. The original plan was to put the motor and trans in the rear and balance the car by putting all my batteries (CALBs at the time) in the front. That's all out the window. The final plan calls for the motor and trans up front with all the batteries in back (A123's)


just sent you a PM Dan


----------



## Bowser330 (Jun 15, 2008)

Currently we don't have much data on a standard unmodified warp11hv...

It would be really nice to see what peak power rpm figures it could achieve with the right battery/controller combo..


----------



## DIYguy (Sep 18, 2008)

Batterypoweredtoad said:


> Why was he using a regular warP11 type pack with a warP11HV?


ya, I mentioned that to him. . . but, I was wrong.  
He could have gotten better performance with the higher torque of the Warp11 I think.


----------



## rwaudio (May 22, 2008)

danh818 said:


> Jacks cobra is one of the reasons I chose to go with the 11hv.
> I spent hours upon hours compiling research from the EVTV blogs/videos and many more on this forum, as well as studying heavily all info in could find on John Metric's "DC Plasma" and John Wayland's "White Zombie". Even then I wasn't satisfied, so I figured I should just call up NetGain and see what they had to say.
> I ended up speaking with George himself. I asked him a ton of questions and he was more than generous with his time (Thanks George). We talked about different motor and controller options, gearing and probably a hundred other variables. I hung up the phone with a solid understanding of his product and what it is capable of within it's recommend limits.
> This was great, however a new problem had surfaced. For those not familier with the Porsche 944, it has a transaxle, meaning the transmission is combined in one unit with the differential at the rear of the car. That by itself is a good thing, it actually gave the factory car almost perfect weight distribution. Alas though my 944 was born without a turbo so the tranny and diff are somewhat weaker than the turbo version. I needed to find a diff to handle the torque of the 11hv and the correct gear ratios to run. After a bit more research and a few calls to some petrol-headed friends I had my answers.
> ...


Once we're both done we'll have to compare results. I'm using the 11HV in a 944 with a stock turbo transmission (car was an '86 NA but the first owner put in a turbo tranny.... not sure why). I'm using a Soliton1 and small A123 pack (317V, 56Ah) I won't be removing any extra weight though, I enjoy the car with full interior etc so the finished weight should be around 2800-2900lbs.


----------



## Bowser330 (Jun 15, 2008)

rwaudio said:


> .... so the finished weight should be around 2800-2900lbs.


Thats pretty damn light...

and I look forward to the results of your testing!


----------



## Dustin_mud (May 22, 2012)

Currie makes some very nice parts, we like to use there 9s front and rear in crawlers. Can wait to see what you come up with.


----------



## danh818 (Dec 14, 2011)

Its good to see you in here RW, I have been secretly admiring your progress for some time now. I'm constantly checking http://electricporsche.ca/ for updates. I too would love to compare data when I have some. 

I don't want to hijack this thread, so it's about time I started a build log. Maybe later tonight but I need to see if there is a way to recover my 'lost' iphone pictures from my cloud account, the ones of the motor mated to the trans.



rwaudio said:


> Once we're both done we'll have to compare results. I'm using the 11HV in a 944 with a stock turbo transmission (car was an '86 NA but the first owner put in a turbo tranny.... not sure why). I'm using a Soliton1 and small A123 pack (317V, 56Ah) I won't be removing any extra weight though, I enjoy the car with full interior etc so the finished weight should be around 2800-2900lbs.


----------



## danh818 (Dec 14, 2011)

Figured I should post a picture of the motor since I have it in my warehouse. The dollar on top is or scale.
My motor is a TransWarp 11HV. It has the larger spline output shaft which is the same as the GM Turbo400 transmission and was build and shipped in late February 2012. 
If it weren't so cumbersome I would hoist it up and bolt on my Gear Vendors and take some more shots. Guess we'll all just have to wait a week or two before I get to that.

Edit: Can't seem to get the picture to post, so here's a link: http://www.infaspace.com/gallery/944-e/


----------



## danh818 (Dec 14, 2011)

Thanks onegreenev. I see the pic when I view your post from my phone, but not from my desktop machine. Can't quite figure that one out.


----------



## onegreenev (May 18, 2012)

Workin on that.

Done


----------



## onegreenev (May 18, 2012)

Problem is the web site which the original image is hosted. I just copied it and put it on my server and posted it that way. I'd use a different image server. It's the type of image gallery it is.


----------



## Dustin_mud (May 22, 2012)

What is it going to cost to have a 11hv built to take 1400 to 1800 amps for 1/4 mile? Force air cooling should be easy but it's the parts inside I can't find jack on.


----------



## DIYguy (Sep 18, 2008)

Dustin_mud said:


> What is it going to cost to have a 11hv built to take 1400 to 1800 amps for 1/4 mile? Force air cooling should be easy but it's the parts inside I can't find jack on.


Just the cost of a stock motor. No problem. 

At what voltage?


----------



## Dustin_mud (May 22, 2012)

320v........


----------



## Bowser330 (Jun 15, 2008)

DIYguy said:


> Just the cost of a stock motor. No problem.
> 
> At what voltage?


Wait, are you saying its costs 3700$ to build up the warp11hv? Really?


----------



## Dustin_mud (May 22, 2012)

Think he is saying a factory one will take that power burst?


----------



## danh818 (Dec 14, 2011)

My understanding is that the motor should take 1400a @ 288v for short periods like drag runs without much problem. As long as you find ways to dissipate the heat you should be okay. 

Bowser and I were talking about the fact that when we first got info on the 11hv it was rated just over 300v, cant remember the exact spec though. I believe for reliability sake it was de-rated. Keeping the armature from grenading itself, stopping brush arching and dissipating heat are all tough problems to solve at high voltages.


----------



## Dustin_mud (May 22, 2012)

And I'll still be able to street drive this as long as I keep my foot out of it for long periods?


----------



## danh818 (Dec 14, 2011)

Can't say for sure, but I'm banking on it. 

Like I told Bowser when he stopped by to check out the build, "It could go like a golf cart, or a rocket I just don't know yet." 

In all seriousness though, I'm pretty confident that as long as we can wick the heat away and keep the voltage up, these motors will put out vast amounts of power.

Hang in there another month or two Dustin. I will be posting all of my data once we get the car driving.


----------



## DIYguy (Sep 18, 2008)

Yes, it will take that current no problem for the 1/4 mile. . . although, the current may not stay up there the whole way. John Metric puts 2000 amps into each of his two stock Warp9's (with Helwig brushes) every race. It's all about duration. The warp 9's are like 10 hp continuous or something like that. Short bursts can be significantly higher.

Just make sure you seat the brushes well. Run the motor for several days at low rpm (12 volts, no load)

The best thing you can do wrt heat is to force as much air through it as you can.


----------



## Bowser330 (Jun 15, 2008)

danh818 said:


> Hang in there another month or two Dustin. I will be posting all of my data once we get the car driving.


Guys, Dan's 944 is a first class build, I can't wait to see the results.

Okay good, that's what I had read and had thought for the longest time, in stock form the 11HV should be able to tolerate 1000+ amps in spurts.


----------



## danh818 (Dec 14, 2011)

DIYguy said:


> Yes, it will take that current no problem for the 1/4 mile. . . although, the current may not stay up there the whole way. John Metric puts 2000 amps into each of his two stock Warp9's (with Helwig brushes) every race. It's all about duration. The warp 9's are like 10 hp continuous or something like that. Short bursts can be significantly higher.


Are John's motors really unmodified? I would have thought he had some tricks up his sleeve on those for sure.


----------



## DIYguy (Sep 18, 2008)

danh818 said:


> Are John's motors really unmodified? I would have thought he had some tricks up his sleeve on those for sure.


Ask him. They are stock except for the brushes. . . and he ran them for a while with the other brushes.

I pumped 1000 amp and even 1200 amps through my self built 9" GE many many times. . . as in regularly. Never hiccuped once. . . and that was street driving so, no cool down after. Just lower current.


----------



## Bowser330 (Jun 15, 2008)

DIYguy said:


> Ask him. They are stock except for the brushes. . . and he ran them for a while with the other brushes.
> 
> I pumped 1000 amp and even 1200 amps through my self built 9" GE many many times. . . as in regularly. Never hiccuped once. . . and that was street driving so, no cool down after. Just lower current.


What do you mean by "self built" ?


----------



## DIYguy (Sep 18, 2008)

Bowser330 said:


> What do you mean by "self built" ?


Oh, I mean re-built with some mods for EV application. It is a GE 9" out of a Hyster lift truck. There are details in my build thread. . http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showthread.php/good-ohmn-here-we-go-23492.html
I also did a 13" where I actually did more serious mods . . as I made a series motor out of two compound wound motors. Had to mod field coils, wrap, dip, bake, silver solder new connections. Shim pole shoes. Balance rotor. Clean up Commutator. Machined the frame. Insulate brush gear. Advance timing... all that good stuff. You can read about it here...http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showthread.php/13-inch-series-few-questions-52291.html


----------



## Bowser330 (Jun 15, 2008)

DIYguy said:


> Oh, I mean re-built with some mods for EV application. It is a GE 9" out of a Hyster lift truck. There are details in my build thread. . http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showthread.php/good-ohmn-here-we-go-23492.html
> I also did a 13" where I actually did more serious mods . . as I made a series motor out of two compound wound motors. Had to mod field coils, wrap, dip, bake, silver solder new connections. Shim pole shoes. Balance rotor. Clean up Commutator. Machined the frame. Insulate brush gear. Advance timing... all that good stuff. You can read about it here...http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showthread.php/13-inch-series-few-questions-52291.html


wow, very cool. You essentially rebuilt the 150$ junkyard forklift motor for ~200$ give or take, right? so 350$ for a motor that can tolerate 156 volt with 13 degree advance and 1000A...jeez...couple that with a DIY controller for 600$ and you have a controller and motor for less than 1000$!

back on topic, I remember hearing the same thing form john, off the shelf Warp9's as opposed to Waylands custom built and upgraded single case single driveshaft impulse9's....So as i discussed with Dan, and according to their website, netgain includes the newest materials into its builds so its likely a recently purchased Warp motor will come "upgraded" to the latest and greatest...


----------



## DIYguy (Sep 18, 2008)

Bowser330 said:


> wow, very cool. You essentially rebuilt the 150$ junkyard forklift motor for ~200$ give or take, right? so 350$ for a motor that can tolerate 156 volt with 13 degree advance and 1000A...jeez...couple that with a DIY controller for 600$ and you have a controller and motor for less than 1000$!
> 
> back on topic, I remember hearing the same thing form john, off the shelf Warp9's as opposed to Waylands custom built and upgraded single case single driveshaft impulse9's....So as i discussed with Dan, and according to their website, netgain includes the newest materials into its builds so its likely a recently purchased Warp motor will come "upgraded" to the latest and greatest...


Ya, well, actually I didn't end up paying anything for that 9". I ran it from a 192 volt lead pack then a 211 volt Li pack (limited motor to 170 volts. But, ya essentially that's the case. GE motors may be even better than the Warp motors. 
The new Warps do come with many upgrades including the Helwig red tops now.


----------



## John Metric (Feb 26, 2009)

Bowser330 said:


> wow, very cool. You essentially rebuilt the 150$ junkyard forklift motor for ~200$ give or take, right? so 350$ for a motor that can tolerate 156 volt with 13 degree advance and 1000A...jeez...couple that with a DIY controller for 600$ and you have a controller and motor for less than 1000$!
> 
> back on topic, I remember hearing the same thing form john, off the shelf Warp9's as opposed to Waylands custom built and upgraded single case single driveshaft impulse9's....So as i discussed with Dan, and according to their website, netgain includes the newest materials into its builds so its likely a recently purchased Warp motor will come "upgraded" to the latest and greatest...


Bone stock, right from the factory in 2009(before all the cool stuff). Got us to the 10's, addition of the Helwig brushes got us the 9's. Warp9 $1800+ TWarp9 $2350
In fact we didn't go over about 170-180V on the 155mph run in the Texas Mile, could have done that on stock brushes.
I have learned you can buy Glyptal paint and paint nearly everything inside to keep from arcing over. Might do that in Assault&Battery. My Lenco is shipping out on Monday, going to see what stock motors and 1.56 first gear do. I am also a netgain dealer if anyone needs one cheap(we will not be undersold).


----------



## Dustin_mud (May 22, 2012)

Very cool, let us know how it goes. We may need to have a little meet up after I get mine going, speaking of I'm sure I'll be getting ahold of you when I need to order my motor.


----------



## Dustin_mud (May 22, 2012)

I'm shooting for the 9s with a single motor so I'm sure your new car will blow my doors off. But it would be fun to race with another Texan


----------



## Dustin_mud (May 22, 2012)

Is there any controllers around the 3k amps that dont run 9 grand? Lol


----------



## onegreenev (May 18, 2012)

Dustin_mud said:


> Is there any controllers around the 3k amps that dont run 9 grand? Lol


NOPE. Sorry but if you want that kind of power you will either pay or build your own.


----------



## Bowser330 (Jun 15, 2008)

Dustin_mud said:


> Is there any controllers around the 3k amps that dont run 9 grand? Lol


At that point dual motors make a lot more sense......


----------



## Dustin_mud (May 22, 2012)

Yeah I hear you on that, just seems like no one has pushed the 11 real hard yet


----------



## DIYguy (Sep 18, 2008)

John Metric said:


> I have learned you can buy Glyptal paint and paint nearly everything inside to keep from arcing over.


Yep. Here are a couple that I have done. Make sure you don't get any inside the brush holders . . and remove the brushes as well as mask off connection points. Coating the brush gear and having a good blower to help get rid of the brush dust (in addition to cooling) is most helpful to prevent flashovers.

You can coat the armature also (minus the comm), but make sure you don't insulate between the case and the pole shoes. I use a high temp paint on the frame.


----------



## Dustin_mud (May 22, 2012)

That's a pretty cool idea! But yeah I think I would be fun to have a car in the 9s with a single motor.


----------



## DIYguy (Sep 18, 2008)

Dustin_mud said:


> That's a pretty cool idea! But yeah I think I would be fun to have a car in the 9s with a single motor.


My single motor ride may have a shot at 9 seconds . . . if I lost the range pack and upped the voltage on the power pack.


----------



## Dustin_mud (May 22, 2012)

I would think with the power they can take...from my understanding 800hp in burst that should put a well build car with a good setup knocking on the doors to 8s. But I'm wrong a lot!! Lol


----------



## Dustin_mud (May 22, 2012)

Can you guys help me understand some things, people talk about there cars making 800+hp with like 1500tq. Now in the world of ice racing that would be deep 9s almost 8s and hitting speeds nearing 150 in the 1/4. But from my reads there hasn't been a car built yet to hit those speeds in the 1/4, what am I not understanding?


----------



## Bowser330 (Jun 15, 2008)

Dustin_mud said:


> Can you guys help me understand some things, people talk about there cars making 800+hp with like 1500tq. Now in the world of ice racing that would be deep 9s almost 8s and hitting speeds nearing 150 in the 1/4. But from my reads there hasn't been a car built yet to hit those speeds in the 1/4, what am I not understanding?


One acronym answers your question: RPM

John Metric was able to do 9.89 @ 134mph with his Fiero, dual Warp9 motors and dual Zilla controllers. The difference comes down to the low-end torque, in ICE racing most cars that have 800hp do not have 1500ftlbs, they have around the same peak torque figures and their horsepower figures. The extra low-end torque is what gets the Electric dragsters to similar 1/4 mile times with less 1/4 mile speed. RPM is the big limitation with the DC motors, Peak power and Torque are available much earlier in the power band vs. the ICE race cars...peak power and torque @ 2900rpm vs. 6900rpm?

In the graph he is comparing his Warp9s vs. the impulse9's that John Wayland uses in his White Zombie. Using the Zilla log feature to provide the battery outputs V & A per rpm, he gets KWs and then calculates torque from there.


----------



## Dustin_mud (May 22, 2012)

Why such a dip after 3k, is that the controller not able offer constant amps?


----------



## Bowser330 (Jun 15, 2008)

Dustin_mud said:


> Why such a dip after 3k, is that the controller not able offer constant amps?


The technical electrical engineering answer to your question is something Tesseract or others can answer, I am not knowledgeable enough.

But it has to do with whats going on within the motor and it just not being able to draw 2000A for very long.


----------



## Dustin_mud (May 22, 2012)

So shift points less then 4k


----------



## dougingraham (Jul 26, 2011)

Dustin_mud said:


> Why such a dip after 3k, is that the controller not able offer constant amps?


Think of it this way. Volts commands RPM. The voltage applied to a motor determines how fast it wants to turn. The motor draws amps in order to try to turn the motor at that RPM. AMPS is proportional to torque. The controller can only control the voltage that the motor sees. The controller monitors amps and RPM and adjusts the voltage to limit those things if the commanded throttle setting is higher than the other limitations. The reason the torque is flat at the early part of the RPM range is that the controller is limiting the voltage in order to limit motor current. As the RPM rises the controller is ramping up the motor voltage and at the point where you see the torque drop off the controller is wide open and applying full pack voltage to the motor terminals.

In this case if you were to increase the battery voltage it would move the point where the current drops off to a higher RPM. There are limiting factors which have to do with brushes and timing. With these larger motors the armature will usually fail at an RPM higher than the point at which the brushes start bouncing and the timing needs more advance.


----------



## Dustin_mud (May 22, 2012)

I'm looking to go 320v and 2000amp....well crap I just looked up the zilla z2k and says you can't run max amps with 300v.


----------



## Dustin_mud (May 22, 2012)

Would be nice to be able to make strong power up to 4 to 5k


----------



## Dustin_mud (May 22, 2012)

Will it have any inpack if the forced air to the motor is cooled?


----------



## John Metric (Feb 26, 2009)

Dustin_mud said:


> Will it have any inpack if the forced air to the motor is cooled?


Dustin, you mentioned a possible IRS installation.
Not sure you're aware, I dropped a FORD 8.8" IRS in DC Plasma. She is up on the far north side of houston getting detailed and is available for inspection. We ran a 1994 Lincoln IRS 3.08 gear to run the 9's. 28 spline axles too. Air bag suspension, nice for drag racing and slalom racing. Cost us $385. I will bet you could find a ford IRS to fit a widened porsche fender body.

If you have a Porsche question, Lowell Simmons, NEDRA VP has a lot of experience breaking stock Porsche transmissions and drivetrains. He now runs a ford rear end too.


----------



## John Metric (Feb 26, 2009)

Dustin_mud said:


> Why such a dip after 3k, is that the controller not able offer constant amps?


motors are at nearly maximum voltage in both cases. The motor spinning makes a emf (force) that behaves like a resistance (actually impedence I think), increasing as it spins up. Since you are already at maximum voltage not much you controller or batteries can do.

Unless you have gears!!!
Yes, shift into second after 3300rpm or so and go back through the hightorque, high horsepower section of the graph.

Assault&Battery is going to be a four speed rated for 1200HP.


----------



## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

John Metric said:


> motors are at nearly maximum voltage in both cases. The motor spinning makes a emf (force) that behaves like a resistance (actually impedence I think), increasing as it spins up. Since you are already at maximum voltage not much you controller or batteries can do.
> 
> Unless you have gears!!!
> Yes, shift into second after 3300rpm or so and go back through the hightorque, high horsepower section of the graph.
> ...


Bingo, like I have always said "It's in the gearing". You can make a 400hp motor run quicker ET's than a 600hp motor if geared correctly. But, you can also use the same equation for the 600hp set-up.


----------



## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

Dustin_mud said:


> Will it have any inpack if the forced air to the motor is cooled?


Cooling will definitely help.


----------



## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

dougingraham said:


> Think of it this way. Volts commands RPM. The voltage applied to a motor determines how fast it wants to turn. The motor draws amps in order to try to turn the motor at that RPM. AMPS is proportional to torque. The controller can only control the voltage that the motor sees. The controller monitors amps and RPM and adjusts the voltage to limit those things if the commanded throttle setting is higher than the other limitations. The reason the torque is flat at the early part of the RPM range is that the controller is limiting the voltage in order to limit motor current. As the RPM rises the controller is ramping up the motor voltage and at the point where you see the torque drop off the controller is wide open and applying full pack voltage to the motor terminals.
> 
> In this case if you were to increase the battery voltage it would move the point where the current drops off to a higher RPM. There are limiting factors which have to do with brushes and timing. With these larger motors the armature will usually fail at an RPM higher than the point at which the brushes start bouncing and the timing needs more advance.


I like this explanation, please let me add my opinion. Once you know the maximum voltage your motor can handle, you will know the max amperage. Use these calculation to your benefit with gearing. If you can maintain a certain amount of torque, your car can gain speed by down shifting.


----------



## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

John Metric said:


> motors are at nearly maximum voltage in both cases. The motor spinning makes a emf (force) that behaves like a resistance (actually impedence I think), increasing as it spins up. Since you are already at maximum voltage not much you controller or batteries can do.
> 
> Unless you have gears!!!
> Yes, shift into second after 3300rpm or so and go back through the hightorque, high horsepower section of the graph.
> ...


John, this car will react much different than DC Plasma. Your going to be shifting gears in very high torque ranges. Kinda will feel like nitro shots!


----------



## Dustin_mud (May 22, 2012)

Thanks guys for all the info, I'm looking at running a water tank inner cooler like the big outlaw turbo boys run to super cool the air into the motor. 

John I'm not sure where I said anything about IRS but I try to stay away from it in drag racing, your car is one of the fastest IRS cars I have ever seen...props to you.


----------



## DavidDymaxion (Dec 1, 2008)

You could also get more sophisticated with the controller and get more area under the torque curve by going AC or sepex. There are no high power sepex options, and to get the same power in AC would be very expensive.

BTW there are ways to field weaken series motors and get a flatter power curve. http://www.poormansev.com did this trick. Warning, field weakening makes it more likely you'll arc and destroy your motor!


John Metric said:


> motors are at nearly maximum voltage in both cases. The motor spinning makes a emf (force) that behaves like a resistance (actually impedence I think), increasing as it spins up. Since you are already at maximum voltage not much you controller or batteries can do.
> 
> Unless you have gears!!!
> Yes, shift into second after 3300rpm or so and go back through the hightorque, high horsepower section of the graph.
> ...


----------



## John Metric (Feb 26, 2009)

DavidDymaxion said:


> You could also get more sophisticated with the controller and get more area under the torque curve by going AC or sepex. There are no high power sepex options, and to get the same power in AC would be very expensive.
> BTW there are ways to field weaken series motors and get a flatter power curve. http://www.poormansev.com did this trick. Warning, field weakening makes it more likely you'll arc and destroy your motor!


This is a drag race run chart of my system with and without a small field weakening system. You can see more charts on NEDRA yahoo group photos page.
My rpm sensor wasn't working well here but you can definitely see the horsepower move to the right and sustain longer at the expense of lower torque at the front end. I still have this system in the car and will in Assault&Battery too but it needs to be a bit more automated because of the switching I will be doing already. Ideally we can switch this in after the current begins to fall. Kind of like a second gear. You would get both high horsepower peaks that way.


----------



## John Metric (Feb 26, 2009)

Dustin_mud said:


> John I'm not sure where I said anything about IRS but I try to stay away from it in drag racing, your car is one of the fastest IRS cars I have ever seen...props to you.


Sorry, you are right, it was Dan818 that was talking about the IRS.


----------



## DavidDymaxion (Dec 1, 2008)

Thanks for the real life data!


John Metric said:


> This is a drag race run chart of my system with and without a small field weakening system. You can see more charts on NEDRA yahoo group photos page.
> My rpm sensor wasn't working well here but you can definitely see the horsepower move to the right and sustain longer at the expense of lower torque at the front end. I still have this system in the car and will in Assault&Battery too but it needs to be a bit more automated because of the switching I will be doing already. Ideally we can switch this in after the current begins to fall. Kind of like a second gear. You would get both high horsepower peaks that way.


----------



## danh818 (Dec 14, 2011)

John Metric said:


> Sorry, you are right, it was Dan818 that was talking about the IRS.


 Nicely timed though John I'm just about to hang my 9". It's blocked up under the car as I type this.


----------



## Bowser330 (Jun 15, 2008)

danh818 said:


> Nicely timed though John I'm just about to hang my 9". It's blocked up under the car as I type this.


  I'm missing out on the progress! damn work!


----------



## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

Guys,

Some very important information that needs to be added to this thread. The Warp HV motors cannot handle the same amounts of torque as the Warp motors. The interpoles will not handle the huge amounts of current. For example:
My Warp & TransWarp motors are only rated for 180 volts, but can handle over 2000amps for a short period.
Warp HV motors can handle higher voltage, but at a loss of amps/ torque.
It all depends on what your car is built for. Long distance racing, definitely the HV motors, 1/4 mile drag racing low voltage Warp motors. Your car MUST be geared to match your motor/ controller/ pack.


----------



## Dustin_mud (May 22, 2012)

That's good info to have.


----------



## Dustin_mud (May 22, 2012)

Still here guys, just got very busy with life and work. Plans have changed a bit, looking at building a lighter ford pinto geared more for 1/8th mile drags. Still like to keep it some what street able, for local car shows and little fun on the streets. Lol


----------



## vmrod (Jul 2, 2010)

So, what is the max amps of the HV motor?





LithiumaniacsEVRacing said:


> Guys,
> 
> Some very important information that needs to be added to this thread. The Warp HV motors cannot handle the same amounts of torque as the Warp motors. The interpoles will not handle the huge amounts of current. For example:
> My Warp & TransWarp motors are only rated for 180 volts, but can handle over 2000amps for a short period.
> ...


----------

