# Bigger motor, no transmission?



## golf junkie (Mar 28, 2009)

arftist said:


> Having installed a 25KW co-gen system at my home, I am one step closer to starting a build. My last big hurdle is that my wife can't and will not drive a standard. I have read much on this site about transmissions, and it ocurred to me that it might be possible through use of an otherwise larger than nessasry motor to eliminate the transmission altogther. Thoughts, pro, con, indiferent? By the way, I am planning to convert a minivan (the wife again) any ideas as to a particular model I should search for? Any and all opinions apreciated.


Get a new wife! Sorry, I couldn't resist.....


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## Coley (Jul 26, 2007)

I think there is a point where a bigger motor is like an bigger engine, you have more power than you need but it takes more AMPs (gas) to do a good job.
On a minivan, not having a trans would make the lost AMPs even greater.
Show her that she can stay in one gear most of the time. 

NOTE a woman can be taught anything.......it's us men that have a problem.
So says a lot of women......um, she is behind me right......


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## arftist (Mar 20, 2008)

Um,yeah,Thanks almost. This is a serious question. If the motor had enough torque this should work, provided that the overall gear ratio was within the range of the motors rpm curve. My priorities are moderate accelleration, 60mph top speed, and as long range as possible, perhaps aproaching 100 milles. Any serious responce greatly apreciated.


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## Qer (May 7, 2008)

Well, ok, some serious comments:



Most people that has converted their cars with manual transmissions say the same; you don't shift gears much. Usually it seems to be standard to run the car in second gear in city traffic and third gear at higher speed and you don't even have to use the clutch when you change gears. Most don't even seem to have a problem with starting on third gear (provided the controller isn't too weak) but it will make acceleration more sluggish.
DC-motors don't like running on low RPM for long, mainly because the built in fan doesn't run fast enough to keep the motor cold. You can solve that with forced cooling by an external fan.
If you consider both points above and it's still too hard for her to shift gears once in a while, tell her to put in third gear and leave it there.
Direct drive can be tricky since you have to get gearing right. If she's extremely allergic to a stick, even the presence of one, put the gear box in a suitable gear and cut the stick so she doesn't panic. 
Never move to or visit Sweden. Automatic transmissions are rather rare over here. 

My personal opinion, don't worry about it. Just tinker with the car and get it running, that's a big enough step as it is. Extravaganza is step two...


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## arftist (Mar 20, 2008)

Thank you. That is the type of responce I have(rightly or wrongly) come to expect from you people. Not that I don't have a sense of humor.


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## Coley (Jul 26, 2007)

Being serious, what is the minivan going to weigh and how many passengers will be it on average?

Do you only have flat land to drive on?
One thing people forget is how many small hills there are around and how much stopping and starting you will be doing.

Once you get to driving around, you will notice the amp eating items, such as these.

Is the minivan front wheel drive or rear?

Are you close to someone with an EV that you could take a ride/drive with?

Is the weather there mostly moderate temp?


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## arftist (Mar 20, 2008)

Coley said:


> Being serious, what is the minivan going to weigh and how many passengers will be it on average?
> Will be procuring minivan just for this purpose. Considering Toyota or V.W.
> 
> Do you only have flat land to drive on?
> ...


 We have seasons here. Summers up to 90F, winters in the teensor twentys, ocasionaly lower.
I realize a minivan is not optimum, however it may be the only practical vehicle for her. I am open to suggestions.


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## TheSGC (Nov 15, 2007)

What minivan did you have in mind? If I did a Minivan it would be either a Honda Odyssey or a Toyota Sienna, I would keep the 4 speed transmission and use a Warp11 with a 192 Volt system to keep the towing option open for me, but it would probably be a 35-40 miles of range using basic lead acid batteries.

However, I think a TransWarp13 direct drive setup would work well for a minivan. Match it with a 156 Volt system using LiFePO4 batteries and things might get interesting. My estimate is that you could get 50-60 miles of range from a Minivan using 144 volt Warp11 setup with 24 6 Volt GC batteries, because a standard minivan gets similar mileage to a Chevy S10. So if you use 156 volt 260 Ah LiFePO4 you *might* get a 100 mile range. This is all speculation though.


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## Wirecutter (Jul 26, 2007)

Because EV conversion adds so much weight, I'd steer more toward a lighter van. A Vanagon maybe? If conversion and legalization weren't issues, I'd really like to get the kind of minivan you see in Asia - like the older Mitzubishi Delica or similar. They're the same basic configuration and shape as good old US minivans, but they seem about 60-70% the size.

I'd also support the point made by others about shifting - it's really different in an EV, and you always have the option to leave it in one gear, giving you _either_ good acceleration or good top speed.

Is it possible that you could do a conversion that your wife would fall in love with after the fact? That also seems to happen a lot with EVs...

-M


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## arftist (Mar 20, 2008)

TheSGC said:


> What minivan did you have in mind? If I did a Minivan it would be either a Honda Odyssey or a Toyota Sienna, I would keep the 4 speed transmission and use a Warp11 with a 192 Volt system to keep the towing option open for me, but it would probably be a 35-40 miles of range using basic lead acid batteries.
> 
> However, I think a TransWarp13 direct drive setup would work well for a minivan. Match it with a 156 Volt system using LiFePO4 batteries and things might get interesting. My estimate is that you could get 50-60 miles of range from a Minivan using 144 volt Warp11 setup with 24 6 Volt GC batteries, because a standard minivan gets similar mileage to a Chevy S10. So if you use 156 volt 260 Ah LiFePO4 you *might* get a 100 mile range. This is all speculation though.


 Thanks for the response. I looked at the Sienna and a VW so far. The lightest will prevail. I am using NiFe batteries, regardless of the consequences, unless something better becomes available soon, which I highly doubt. I could live with a fifty mile range, but more would be better. I really don't care much about acceleration or top speed. It is all about sticking it to the oil companies, and longevity of the vehicle to me.


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## arftist (Mar 20, 2008)

Wirecutter said:


> Because EV conversion adds so much weight, I'd steer more toward a lighter van. A Vanagon maybe? If conversion and legalization weren't issues, I'd really like to get the kind of minivan you see in Asia - like the older Mitzubishi Delica or similar. They're the same basic configuration and shape as good old US minivans, but they seem about 60-70% the size.
> 
> I'd also support the point made by others about shifting - it's really different in an EV, and you always have the option to leave it in one gear, giving you _either_ good acceleration or good top speed.
> 
> ...


Thanks. She had a toyota previa, and nothing since has lived up to it.


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## TheSGC (Nov 15, 2007)

NiFe sound real interesting. I have never used them, but I have read they can take abuse and have great revival capacity. Do you have any specs one the ones you are going to use?

Also, a Mazda MPV is quite a light vehicle, at least compared to a Honda Odyssey, not sure about the Sienna though, probably on the same weight size.

My next question is what did you have in mind for speed?


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## arftist (Mar 20, 2008)

TheSGC said:


> NiFe sound real interesting. I have never used them, but I have read they can take abuse and have great revival capacity. Do you have any specs one the ones you are going to use?
> 
> Also, a Mazda MPV is quite a light vehicle, at least compared to a Honda Odyssey, not sure about the Sienna though, probably on the same weight size.
> 
> My next question is what did you have in mind for speed?


Hoping for 60 mph to be able to use highways, could live with 50. The only NiFes I am presently aware of are from Thundersky, and I have heard somewhat mixed reveiws as to their longevity at least compared with Edison batteries which (theroeticaly) could last forever. I think there were some NiFes made by Eagle Pitcher in the last century for golf carts, and I would rather find some of those than buy anything from China, but I will do what I have to. Edisison batteries were made in this country until 1973, and considering their ultra-long lifespan, it is possible some could still be around, however, during scrap price run ups, they became extremely valuable as scrap. I also plan to check with a couple large forklift service centers to see what they might have. Thank you for your interest.


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## ilikestuff (Jul 7, 2008)

What about a Mazda6? It's an awful expensive donor, but I bet they're light. Another might be those Mazda MPV.
________
Z-series


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## Green (Aug 6, 2009)

You could use an almost direct drive...say for example a chain drive where the chain pulleys are of a size such that the motor goes round 3 or 4 times per wheel 1...3:1 or 4:1drive ratio etc. thus you wouldn't need a Behemoth motor and you can have your cake and eat it too.


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## x88x (Aug 19, 2011)

Just a suggestion, but you might want to find somewhere you can actually _buy_ NiFe batteries before deciding that's what you're going to use, damn the consequences. For that matter, do you know what energy density they might have? Batteries with effectively endless lifecycles are great and all, but if you end up with a 5 ton vehicle, that's no good. I'd like to buy American made batteries too, but the simple fact of the matter is that _no American (lithium) battery companies will sell to us_. It's all well and good supporting the local economy and all, but if the product you need is not available from the local economy, by necessity you must send your money elsewhere.

As to the original question, I'll toss another vote in the 'put in a manual and leave it in one gear' pile. Direct drive is definitely possible, but it's almost always less efficient and harder on the motor. OOC, what exactly is your wife's objection to a manual? I'm not being facetious here, just trying to pinpoint to problem to maybe find a better solution. Most of the people I know who can't use a manual transmission, can't because they always stall the engine, most commonly when trying to start the vehicle rolling. That's not really a problem with electrics, especially if she never has to shift in the first place. By leaving a stickshift there, even if she never touches it, the option is open if you, say, need more low-end power when towing, or need to go faster on an interstate, or whatever. In my career (sysadmin/programmer), I've found that more often than not, the simplest and best solution to a problem is user education to help the user/client understand the system as designed already does what they need, not bending over backwards to try and fit the design to what they think they need.


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## GizmoEV (Nov 28, 2009)

Don't forget that you will need a "bigger" controller to pump those high amps for longer periods if you go direct drive compared to keeping the transmission. Also, if you go with a front wheel drive, make sure the motor you choose isn't too big to fit beside the transaxle.


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