# Planning a 1975 Fiat 124 Sport Spider Conversion



## zeroexcelcior (Aug 2, 2011)

I'm a little new to auto mechanics and fabrication and this will be my first ev conversion but I'm interested in learning as much as I can.

I would like to use my EV for commuting. Fortunately its a short commute, only 14 miles round trip but I would like some wiggle room and the more the better. 20 mile range absolute minimum, preferably closer to 50 or more.

I'm not interested in making an electric supercar. The stock engine only puts out about 86hp/92lbft and I'm happy with that, I don't think I'd want to go too much higher than 100/100. I would like to be able to do some highway driving so a top speed around 65mph would be ideal and faster would certainly be nice. Acceleration also doesn't need to be phenomenal, just adequate.

I would like to be able to spend whatever it takes to do this project right but less expensive is always welcome. I figure I can sell all the internal combustion bits to help cover the cost of the conversion but I know it's not going to cover everything.

I've done some reading on this site and others (including valerun's 124 ev conversion) and from what I can tell those who opt to keep their transmissions end up only using one or two gears. For my purposes it seems like a bit of a waste and I would like to go the direct drive route (motor to driveshaft) so I can have more room for batteries. *Edit: Keeping transmission*

I would like regenerative braking but it's not a must. I will need a heater, however. I would like to use this vehicle for all four seasons and Pennsylvania winters can get *cold*.

With all that on that table, what do I need to do to make this happen? I thank you all in advance.


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## drgrieve (Apr 14, 2011)

Keeping the transmission is easier as you don;t need to work out the gear ratios, you get reverse, you don;t need to worry about hills starts, or over heating the motor at low rpms if it's internally fan cooled.

Keeping the transmission is cheaper as you need less batteries and thus a less powerful motor.


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## zeroexcelcior (Aug 2, 2011)

Easier and cheaper both sound good to me. Thanks for the quick reply, drgrieve.


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## zeroexcelcior (Aug 2, 2011)

After some research, I'm looking at the WarP 9 motor, the Soliton Jr., and 30 to 60 CALB LiFePO4 100Ah cells for this build. Opinions?

Also, from what I've seen I like the hall effect throttles but I can't say I understand the functional difference between those and pot boxes. What can you tell me?

Here's a photo of the vehicle in its current condition.


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## drgrieve (Apr 14, 2011)

Can't go wrong with the components you're looking at.

This guy has a similar car and reckons on 300 watts a mile. I would have though a small car like this would be less?

http://www.evalbum.com/1131

To get 50 miles at 80% DOD you'd need (50miles*300 watt *1.25 DOD) ~ 19 kWh.

19000 / 3.2 v (nominal) / 100ah = 60 cells. So 30 cells would get you 25 miles.

Anything over 120v would be fine acceleration wise for such a light car.

Try and get in contact with someone who has done a similar build and see what they say.


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## valerun (Nov 12, 2010)

Hey Hey Hey! Welcome to the Electric Fiat 124 crowd! ;-)

quick comments:
1. Warp9 will be perfect for your purposes
2. Soliton Jr - same
3. Careful with battery pack config - you will definitely be disappointed with 30 cells (96V nominal will not get you any acceleration at speed). I would much rather go for 60AH cells and start with at least 45 of those (144V nominal). You can go up to 90-95 cells with Solitons so plenty of upgrade room. 95 60AH cells would meand 18kWhrs or ~60 mile range which I understand is quite sufficient for your purposes. Also, rated max current (for 10s of sec) for CALB 100AH is 8C, while its 10C for 60AH. So you will get better max power output of your pack, as well. I think it has to deal with the limitations on battery internal wiring and connectors. Finally, always good to go for higher voltage - less loss in wiring and controller.

hope this helps.

V


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## zeroexcelcior (Aug 2, 2011)

Thanks for the battery suggestions.

I've looked over the very handy Battery Pack Sizing Guide and punched in some numbers.

I multiplied the 300 watts/mile figure and got 15k watts.
50 miles x 300 watts/miles = 15,000 watts

Then I divided the 15kw by the recommended 144 volts and got 104.17Ah
15,000 watts / 144 volts = 104.17Ah

Finally I adjusted for DOD and Peukert effect and ended up with about a 140 amp hour pack (rounding up).
104.17 Ah× 1.25 = 130.2125 Ah
130.2125 Ah x 1.05 = 136.723125 Ah = ~140Ah

I can achieve this by wiring a pair of 70Ah packs in parallel, right? I want to make sure I'm doing this right.
Thanks again.


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## valerun (Nov 12, 2010)

zeroexcelcior said:


> Thanks for the battery suggestions.
> 
> I've looked over the very handy Battery Pack Sizing Guide and punched in some numbers.
> 
> ...



no peukert effect in LiFePo4. As I already mentioned, go for higher voltage. The only reason I went for 100AH cells is that I wanted to upgrade later for 100 mile range. If you don't see yourself going for more than 60 mile range, I would strongly recommend doing 60AH pack. Higher voltage would give you higher efficiency from all components - batteries (through lower current), controller (as voltage drop is constant through controller), wiring, etc.

Beware of online calculators - most of them are quite outdated - as evidenced by the Lead-Acid-centric calculator you found.

V


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## zeroexcelcior (Aug 2, 2011)

So essentially I want as many 60Ah cells as I can fit in my car, wired in series, so as to get as high a voltage pack possible.


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## valerun (Nov 12, 2010)

zeroexcelcior said:


> So essentially I want as many 60Ah cells as I can fit in my car, wired in series, so as to get as high a voltage pack possible.


that's right - up to max voltage rating of your controller. Which, in Soliton Jr case, is 340V. Which corresponds to ~95 cells max. Which, in 60AH cell case, is ~60-70 mile range.

V


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## EVfun (Mar 14, 2010)

Just because I'm running Thunder Sky 60 amp hour cells doesn't mean I'd recommend them for a normal build. They are best for short range vehicles or high pack voltages (>200 volts.) My EV only weighs 1100 lb. 

I'd recommend a pack of 48, 100 amp hour cells for a 50 mile range and a practical (saying away from the ends of cell capacity) range of 40 miles. All this assuming 300 watt hours per mile and I think you can easily do better with a little tire and suspension effort. I'd buy 50 of the 100 amp hour cells and have 2 spares. 

If you really only want to build for 20 to 30 miles then consider 60 amp hour cells. They are kinda current limited, I don't go over 6C which is 360 amps. 100 amp hour cells at 5C gets you 500 amps and would put the Soliton Jr. to full use and make decent power at lower voltages. I think all the cells can take higher peak currents than that, but not many here are pushing Winston or CALB cells harder to find out.


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## valerun (Nov 12, 2010)

EVfun said:


> Just because I'm running Thunder Sky 60 amp hour cells doesn't mean I'd recommend them for a normal build. They are best for short range vehicles or high pack voltages (>200 volts.) My EV only weighs 1100 lb.
> 
> I'd recommend a pack of 48, 100 amp hour cells for a 50 mile range and a practical (saying away from the ends of cell capacity) range of 40 miles. All this assuming 300 watt hours per mile and I think you can easily do better with a little tire and suspension effort. I'd buy 50 of the 100 amp hour cells and have 2 spares.
> 
> If you really only want to build for 20 to 30 miles then consider 60 amp hour cells. They are kinda current limited, I don't go over 6C which is 360 amps. 100 amp hour cells at 5C gets you 500 amps and would put the Soliton Jr. to full use and make decent power at lower voltages. I think all the cells can take higher peak currents than that, but not many here are pushing Winston or CALB cells harder to find out.


EVfun - I am regularly pushing my 100AH to their rated 800A max current. It works. 60AH from CALB are rated for 600A max current for 10s of seconds. You are saying "If you really only want to build for 20 to 30 miles then consider 60 amp hour cells". I do not understand this argument. 60AH cells at Soliton Jr max voltage limit (as OP stated, this is his controller choice) corresponds to over 19kWhrs. Which, at your 300Wh/mile benchmark, corresponds to 63 mile range. At 80% DoD, 50 miles. Where are you getting 20-30 mile figure you just mentioned?


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## EVfun (Mar 14, 2010)

valerun said:


> 60AH cells at Soliton Jr max voltage limit (as OP stated, this is his controller choice) corresponds to over 19kWhrs. Which, at your 300Wh/mile benchmark, corresponds to 63 mile range. At 80% DoD, 50 miles. Where are you getting 20-30 mile figure you just mentioned?


60 amp hour cells being used at a voltage more commonly seen. Most EVs are 120 volt to 192 volt. Specifically, I used 38 cells times 3.2 volts nominal each times 60 amp hours for 7296 watt hours. That would be about 24 miles at 300 watt hours per mile making 20 miles about the practical limit of regular use. At the other end of the most commonly used voltage range (especially for a first time builder) would be 60 cells for a bit over 30 miles with the smaller 60 amp hour cells. Most of the series DC motors being used won't take more voltage than that without a real risk of arcing over. 

You are the first person I've heard report taking the 100 amp hour cells to 800 amps on a regular basis. I only take my 60 amp hour TS cells to 360 amps which keeps them a little over 2.8 volts per cell. I'm trying to taylor the advice to a first time EV builder, which is a lot easier if you follow a well tested path.


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## valerun (Nov 12, 2010)

EVfun said:


> 60 amp hour cells being used at a voltage more commonly seen. Most EVs are 120 volt to 192 volt. Specifically, I used 38 cells times 3.2 volts nominal each times 60 amp hours for 7296 watt hours. That would be about 24 miles at 300 watt hours per mile making 20 miles about the practical limit of regular use. At the other end of the most commonly used voltage range (especially for a first time builder) would be 60 cells for a bit over 30 miles with the smaller 60 amp hour cells. Most of the series DC motors being used won't take more voltage than that without a real risk of arcing over.
> 
> You are the first person I've heard report taking the 100 amp hour cells to 800 amps on a regular basis. I only take my 60 amp hour TS cells to 360 amps which keeps them a little over 2.8 volts per cell. I'm trying to taylor the advice to a first time EV builder, which is a lot easier if you follow a well tested path.


but there is nothing magical about higher voltage packs. For one, see my dedicated thread on voltage limits for DC motors at http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showthread.php/voltage-limits-dc-motors-61247.html. The consensus seems to be that any EV DC motor can handle 400V-ish pack voltage. Welding cable is rated for 600V so that's not an issue, as well. EVnetics guys themselves recommend higher voltage packs.


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## drgrieve (Apr 14, 2011)

This is a question I being meaning to ask - 

Motor voltage/amp is different to battery voltage / amp. Just supply power to the controller it will handle the motor voltage and amperage for you.

Is that correct?

Valerun what is your voltage sag at 8C?


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## DawidvC (Feb 14, 2010)

A DC controller is basically a buck convertor. You can reckon on Power in = Power Out - Losses (<5% typically). For instance, to deliver 500 Amps into 140V at the motor with a 340V pack, you would only need 215A (taking losses into account) from the pack. That is less than 4C, which should keep your pack happy. BTW, most newer controllers have some means of setting maximum motor volts and amps, as well as limits for the pack.

Dawid


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## zeroexcelcior (Aug 2, 2011)

Thank you all for your input.

From what I can tell, as long as I have a high enough pack voltage, I'm in good shape. For my set up would be anything over 170 (the WarP 9's max voltage rating), which is well above valerun's recommended 144 volts.

Now I'm not entirely clear on what role the amp-hour rating plays. What would make a 60 cell (192v) 100Ah pack different from a 100 cell (320v) 60Ah pack since they both would be 19.2kw packs? It seems that above a certain voltage the point is moot, unless...



valerun said:


> The only reason I went for *100AH cells* is that I wanted to upgrade later for *100 mile range*. If you don't see yourself going for more than *60 mile range*, I would strongly recommend doing *60AH pack*.


Is it coincidence or does Ah directly relate to range?


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## DawidvC (Feb 14, 2010)

zeroexcelcior said:


> Is it coincidence or does Ah directly relate to range?


That is correct so long as you keep to the same pack voltage - i.e. for a 170V pack, there would be about 40% increase in range going from 60Ah to 100Ah. 

A more general idea is to use kWhr, which is pack voltage multiplied by Ahr. In your case 170V x 60Ahr = 10,2kWhr and 170V x 100Ahr = 17kWhr. If you know (or can find out) the energy consumption of your car at the average speed you normally drive at, Working out your range is quite easy.

For example, if you use 300Whr/mile on average, the 60Ahr pack will give you 10.2kWhr / 300Whr/mile = 34 miles. You only want to use 80% of your capacity on Lifepo4, so actual range will be 27 miles. The 100Ahr pack will give 17kWhr / 300Whr/mile = 56.7 miles and 80% DoD =45 miles. (DoD means depth of discharge)

I hope it helps a little.
Dawid


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## valerun (Nov 12, 2010)

zeroexcelcior said:


> Thank you all for your input.
> 
> From what I can tell, as long as I have a high enough pack voltage, I'm in good shape. For my set up would be anything over 170 (the WarP 9's max voltage rating), which is well above valerun's recommended 144 volts.
> 
> Now I'm not entirely clear on what role the amp-hour rating plays. What would make a 60 cell (192v) 100Ah pack different from a 100 cell (320v) 60Ah pack since they both would be 19.2kw packs? It seems that above a certain voltage the point is moot, unless...


somewhat. higher voltage = lower losses. if your components can withstand the voltage (which in your case is 340V and limiting factor will be the controller). Motor can probably withstand 400V+ instantaneous voltage (170V max rating is for continuous / average voltage). 

The only 2 reasons to go for higher AH packs are:
1. if you want to leave room for easy incremental upgrade
2. if you don't want to deal with too many cells (more connections, more BMS boards if you use BMS, etc).

V


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## dladd (Jun 1, 2011)

zeroexcelcior said:


> Now I'm not entirely clear on what role the amp-hour rating plays. What would make a 60 cell (192v) 100Ah pack different from a 100 cell (320v) 60Ah pack since they both would be 19.2kw packs? It seems that above a certain voltage the point is moot, unless...


One huge difference between a 192v pack and a 320v pack will be the price of the charger. like a $2000 difference, right?


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## valerun (Nov 12, 2010)

dladd said:


> One huge difference between a 192v pack and a 320v pack will be the price of the charger. like a $2000 difference, right?


not necessarily. but I am biased in this. See http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showthread.php/10kw-60a-diy-charger-open-source-59210.html.


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## zeroexcelcior (Aug 2, 2011)

I don't believe I've said so already but you've all been very helpful. I feel I have a much, much better handle on what I'm doing now.

I've done some research and crunched some numbers since my last post and I've decided to go with 55 to 70 100Ah CALB cells and this is why:

The main reason being energy density. From what I've found, the 60Ah cells have the lowest watt to pound ratio of all the cells CALB produces at ~34.78:1. Meanwhile the 100Ah cells have the second highest at ~45.39:1, surpassed only by the 180Ah cells at ~46.64:1.

I rechecked the route I commute and found it to be about 15 miles round trip. I'd like to be able to make that trek twice with change on a charge, a little more than three times optimally. This puts my range goal at >45 miles. Accounting for 80% DOD, I would need 55 100Ah cells, which would give me 176 volts on tap and a 388 pound pack. Now, I'd like to keep my battery pack under 500 pounds so the largest I could go would be 70 100Ah cells for a 224 volt, 494 pound pack.
My current plan is to start with 55 cells and purchase the remaining 15 as needed/if needed unless I can find a really good deal and grab all 70. My only concern is if batches vary enough that I should purchase all 70 at once regardless. Does anyone have any experience with this?

Which brings me to BMS. At the price of batteries, some insurance would certainly be nice. Is a BMS something I could solder together on my own or should I purchase one? Either way, where do I start and what should I look for?

I pointed out in my first post that the weather can get cold here, but mother nature has lately been reminding me just how hot and humid it can get, too. What do I need to consider for cooling or heating my batteries, controller, and motor?

Lastly, I still would like to have regenerative braking, not so much to extend my range but to retain the ability to engine brake. Can the Soliton Jr. handle this? If not, what should I consider?

Again, thank you all.


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## valerun (Nov 12, 2010)

zeroexcelcior said:


> The main reason being energy density. From what I've found, the 60Ah cells have the lowest watt to pound ratio of all the cells CALB produces at ~34.78:1. Meanwhile the 100Ah cells have the second highest at ~45.39:1, surpassed only by the 180Ah cells at ~46.64:1.


wow, good point. I didn't realize how much of the difference between these two...



zeroexcelcior said:


> I rechecked the route I commute and found it to be about 15 miles round trip. I'd like to be able to make that trek twice with change on a charge, a little more than three times optimally. This puts my range goal at >45 miles. Accounting for 80% DOD, I would need 55 100Ah cells, which would give me 176 volts on tap and a 388 pound pack. Now, I'd like to keep my battery pack under 500 pounds so the largest I could go would be 70 100Ah cells for a 224 volt, 494 pound pack.
> My current plan is to start with 55 cells and purchase the remaining 15 as needed/if needed unless I can find a really good deal and grab all 70. My only concern is if batches vary enough that I should purchase all 70 at once regardless. Does anyone have any experience with this?
> 
> Which brings me to BMS. At the price of batteries, some insurance would certainly be nice. Is a BMS something I could solder together on my own or should I purchase one? Either way, where do I start and what should I look for?
> ...


different batches might be an issue but was not a problem for me (so far bought over 200 100AH cells for our conversions and they are all [claimed] between 108 and 110AH on their individual datasheets). 

BMS is a touchy subject. I will let others chime in ;-)

Heating might be necessary. Usually cooling required only in extreme cases. You can hook up your Soliton to liquid cooling. You can also get a liquid-cooled charger. Some people hook up the air cooling to your A/C system. the idea is that if your vehicle occupants require cooling, likely your components do, too.

And no regen braking with DC series motors, sorry. You would have to go AC for that.


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## zeroexcelcior (Aug 2, 2011)

valerun said:


> Heating might be necessary. Usually cooling required only in extreme cases. You can hook up your Soliton to liquid cooling. You can also get a liquid-cooled charger. Some people hook up the air cooling to your A/C system. the idea is that if your vehicle occupants require cooling, likely your components do, too.


I'd rather bolt an over-sized fan to the rig than introduce the complexity of water cooling but I won't shy away from it if I have to. Unfortunately I don't have an air conditioner to tap into for cooling. That's a really good idea, just perhaps for another project.

I looked up temperature averages and extremes for Pennsylvania and it looks like normal operation should be between 20 and 90 degrees Fahrenheit. While I don't anticipate experiencing such, I think it should be noted that the record high for PA is 111 and the record low is negative 42.

From what I understand, Nissan's LEAF has the ability to precondition it's cabin while still plugged in, thus reducing battery strain once untethered. I like this idea and was wondering how I could implement it. I don't think a ragtop from the 70's is going to do much in the ways of insulation but every little bit would help. Any suggestions?

Touching a bit on restoration, I will be needing to replace all of the lights if I'm to do any night driving and I need to replace the wiper motor if I want to be able to see in the rain. What are some battery friendly options? I'd also like to retain the 12v accessory outlet in the cabin.

Val, I looked up some information on the 124 Spider model and it seems like Fiat didn't change anything between 1974 and 1978 so chances are my 124 is mechanically very similar to yours. I was wondering if you had any data you could share.

Again, thanks to all.


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## valerun (Nov 12, 2010)

zeroexcelcior said:


> seems like Fiat didn't change anything between 1974 and 1978 so chances are my 124 is mechanically very similar to yours. I was wondering if you had any data you could share.


sure. PM me. we have photos etc showing layouts. also, have CAD of the coupler although you can order that online I think.

V


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## zeroexcelcior (Aug 2, 2011)

Has anyone had any experience with lithiumstorage.com? I've requested a few price quotes from them and not only were they quick to reply, but their prices are the best I've seen so far.

I was also wondering about weatherproofing, not only from above but below as well. Is there any reason I can't bolt a plastic tray onto the underside of the engine compartment to keep water and debris from getting up into the motor and batteries?

As always, suggestions and opinions are welcome.


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## valerun (Nov 12, 2010)

zeroexcelcior said:


> Has anyone had any experience with lithiumstorage.com? I've requested a few price quotes from them and not only were they quick to reply, but their prices are the best I've seen so far.
> 
> I was also wondering about weatherproofing, not only from above but below as well. Is there any reason I can't bolt a plastic tray onto the underside of the engine compartment to keep water and debris from getting up into the motor and batteries?
> 
> As always, suggestions and opinions are welcome.


Have no idea what realforce batteries are. I'd save myself a potential trouble and spend a few cents / AH more on a good brand batteries that are well tested by the community - TS or CALB. Disclaimer - we are a CALB reseller - $1.25/AH.


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## zeroexcelcior (Aug 2, 2011)

valerun said:


> Have no idea what realforce batteries are. I'd save myself a potential trouble and spend a few cents / AH more on a good brand batteries that are well tested by the community - TS or CALB. Disclaimer - we are a CALB reseller - $1.25/AH.


I was actually referring to the CALB cells they carry, the Realforce cells seemed suspiciously generic to me too. $1.25/Ah sounds like a good price, could you toss in a shipping quote for 55 to 70 100Ah CALBs to my location when you send me the 124 conversion data, please?


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## zeroexcelcior (Aug 2, 2011)

It's been a while since I've posted an update, not much has happened but I've decided to keep a rolling checklist of unanswered questions.


I'd like to be able to heat the cabin both on the road and while still plugged in like Nissan's LEAF, how can this be done?
How do I keep components clean, dry, and weatherproof both from above and below?
What do I need for gauges?
What are my options for LED and high efficiency lighting?
I like daisy chain style BMS but not the price that comes with them, can I save some money by soldering my own or should I consider another form of BMS?
I'd like to have engine braking, can this be done?
What do I need to do to keep 12v accessory functionality?
How cold can my batteries get without harm and what can I use for insulation?

I've begun restoration work and started a thread on fiatspider.com for that portion of this project.


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## zeroexcelcior (Aug 2, 2011)

Updates: Slight progress on restoration; some questions answered, more questions to ask.

For instrumentation I would like to have temperatures for the battery pack, controller, and motor just to keep an eye on those things; a state of charge meter for the battery pack (I've done some light reading on the subject and it seems to me that the only way to do that with lithium is a kilowatt counter); and of course tachometer and speedometer. What are the best ways to implement these and are there any that I'm missing?

I've been looking over my plans and it seems to me that the controller I've picked out (Soliton Jr.) is the bottleneck of the system. If I'm wrong, please someone say so, but this is how I figure things to be. A Soliton Jr. can only supply 500 amps whereas a Soliton 1 is not only going to be able to deliver 1000 amps but also stay cooler at lower current levels where I intend the system to be during normal circumstances. There's also a bit of a "it's there if I need it" factor at play but I'm having a hard time reasoning against it. Thoughs?

I'm also looking around at motor options. An alternative to the WarP-9 I picked out initially is a Kostov 9 220v, however I'm having a hard time finding comparable information between the two. Where should I look?

Thanks again.

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Rolling list of questions:

I'd like to be able to heat the cabin both on the road and while still plugged in like Nissan's LEAF, how can this be done?
DIY daisy chain BMS?
How cold can my batteries get without harm and what can I use for insulation?


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## valerun (Nov 12, 2010)

zeroexcelcior said:


> For instrumentation I would like to have temperatures for the battery pack, controller, and motor just to keep an eye on those things; a state of charge meter for the battery pack (I've done some light reading on the subject and it seems to me that the only way to do that with lithium is a kilowatt counter); and of course tachometer and speedometer. What are the best ways to implement these and are there any that I'm missing?
> 
> I've been looking over my plans and it seems to me that the controller I've picked out (Soliton Jr.) is the bottleneck of the system. If I'm wrong, please someone say so, but this is how I figure things to be. A Soliton Jr. can only supply 500 amps whereas a Soliton 1 is not only going to be able to deliver 1000 amps but also stay cooler at lower current levels where I intend the system to be during normal circumstances. There's also a bit of a "it's there if I need it" factor at play but I'm having a hard time reasoning against it. Thoughs?
> 
> ...


EVdisplay by CleanPowerAuto is great. We are working with Dimitri now to get it talking to any Android device through bluetooth. You can also get his BMS. Disclaimer: we are reselling these products.

Re Soliton1 vs. Jr: can't comment on Jr. but we definitely love what we get from Soliton1 in this small car. You might especially need the extra torque with a smaller motor. Just make sure you wire the motor temp sensor to the controller so you don't overheat your motor.

Kostov site has good info on their motors - just click on PDF links on the individual motor pages. Netgain motor info attached. Email me if you need more info.

Valery.


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## dtbaker (Jan 5, 2008)

valerun said:


> Netgain motor info attached.


graphs and charts I have found are all at 72 volts... Common designs are 144v or even 156v. Does ANYONE have torque/HP curves 0-1000amps for Warp9 at 144v? 156v?

I know that we cannot run a Warp9 at 1000 amps for long, but I am wondering what the peak torque will actually be to decide how beefy a clutch/tranny would be required.


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## dtbaker (Jan 5, 2008)

zeroexcelcior said:


> For instrumentation I would like to have temperatures for the battery pack, controller, and motor just to keep an eye on those things;


I think the Soliton accepts input on those... I just use a wireless remote thermometer with two pickups in the battery boxes taped to one of the bus bars.... no 'warning' buzzers, but no evidence of internal heating unless I am on a long (20 minute hill pulling 200+amps).




zeroexcelcior said:


> a state of charge meter for the battery pack


evDisplay looks like the best bang for the buck at the moment. volts, amps, amp-hr, and SOC display based on your parameters for $200-ish




zeroexcelcior said:


> (Soliton Jr.) is the bottleneck of the system. If I'm wrong, please someone say so, but this is how I figure things to be. A Soliton Jr. can only supply 500 amps whereas a Soliton 1 is not only going to be able to deliver 1000 amps but also stay cooler at lower current levels


unless you are planning to race, or have extended high-draw highway miles, the Jr will be fine. I think it is rated to handle 300amps continuous air-cooled, and over 500 if you water-cool, which is all the motor can handle continuous anyway and way more than you'll need unless you are going 75mph up a hill. flat ground at 70mph I bet you pull 150amps or less with a 120v or 144v system.







zeroexcelcior said:


> [*]I'd like to be able to heat the cabin both on the road and while still plugged in like Nissan's LEAF, how can this be done?



ceramic heater in ductwork, heatline.com in battery boxes, and maybe heated seats in a convertible!



zeroexcelcior said:


> DIY daisy chain BMS?




I think you are safer WITHOUT a BMS than a DIY one where the chances of introducing a failure that will drain a cell are much higher.  I am one of the few perhaps that is pretty comfortable so far with a good initial top-balance and trusting my charger. I have seen no relative 'drift' between cells in 2000 miles so far... but that's just me.



zeroexcelcior said:


> How cold can my batteries get without harm and what can I use for insulation?


you can use them even if they are REALLY cold... they will even warm slightly internally as you drive. What you should NOT do is charge them when they are below freezing according to the specs... which mean you may need to consider warmers in battery boxes for the winter. I found a cool product at heatline.com which can be plugged into AC or DC and self regulates to 1-8watts/foot depending on temp, but have not installed because I really don't need it and have the car in a garage overnight which keeps the core temp up enough for me.


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## valerun (Nov 12, 2010)

dtbaker said:


> graphs and charts I have found are all at 72 volts... Common designs are 144v or even 156v. Does ANYONE have torque/HP curves 0-1000amps for Warp9 at 144v? 156v?
> 
> I know that we cannot run a Warp9 at 1000 amps for long, but I am wondering what the peak torque will actually be to decide how beefy a clutch/tranny would be required.


that's everybody's problem - lack of high-performance data on these motors. Hey, if even a factory does not have a dyno that goes beyond 72V...

Anyway, a reasonably good approximation would be that the torque is linear to the current. EVsource has tables for those too lazy to multiply ;-) - http://evsource.com/tls_warp9.php

V


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## zeroexcelcior (Aug 2, 2011)

dtbaker said:


> graphs and charts I have found are all at 72 volts... Common designs are 144v or even 156v. Does ANYONE have torque/HP curves 0-1000amps for Warp9 at 144v? 156v?
> 
> I know that we cannot run a Warp9 at 1000 amps for long, but I am wondering what the peak torque will actually be to decide how beefy a clutch/tranny would be required.


According to post number four on this thread, a WarP-9 maxed out is good for 200lb-ft, give or take.



dtbaker said:


> evDisplay looks like the best bang for the buck at the moment. volts, amps, amp-hr, and SOC display based on your parameters for $200-ish


The EV Display looks like just the thing, thanks!



valerun said:


> EVdisplay by CleanPowerAuto is great. We are working with Dimitri now to get it talking to any Android device through bluetooth.


In my experience, wifi radios are more commonly available on larger Android devices than bluetooth radios, because of this I would imagine it to be easier to get one to communicate over ethernet via a wireless router. That said, your project sounds interesting and I would like to learn more about it.



dtbaker said:


> unless you are planning to race, or have extended high-draw highway miles, the Jr will be fine. I think it is rated to handle 300amps continuous air-cooled, and over 500 if you water-cool, which is all the motor can handle continuous anyway and way more than you'll need unless you are going 75mph up a hill. flat ground at 70mph I bet you pull 150amps or less with a 120v or 144v system.


What exactly constitutes "extended high-draw highway miles"? I would like to drive twenty to thirty minute highway stretches eventually which I think would certainly qualify, but even for normal driving, many of the roads in my area are either highway or highway like and I'd rather be over prepared than under prepared.



dtbaker said:


> I think you are safer WITHOUT a BMS than a DIY one where the chances of introducing a failure that will drain a cell are much higher.  I am one of the few perhaps that is pretty comfortable so far with a good initial top-balance and trusting my charger. I have seen no relative 'drift' between cells in 2000 miles so far... but that's just me.


That's a very good point, I think I'll leave BMS out for now and maybe add one later if I feel I need one.



dtbaker said:


> ceramic heater in ductwork, heatline.com in battery boxes, and maybe heated seats in a convertible!


I would definitely like seat heaters and at least one ceramic element, I've been loosely following lowcrawler's 1970 Beetle conversion to get a good idea of what can be done for cabin heating and it seems like we're all on the same track.



dtbaker said:


> What you should NOT do is charge them when they are below freezing according to the specs... which mean you may need to consider warmers in battery boxes for the winter. I found a cool product at heatline.com which can be plugged into AC or DC and self regulates to 1-8watts/foot depending on temp, but have not installed because I really don't need it and have the car in a garage overnight which keeps the core temp up enough for me.


I don't have a garage so a pre-charge battery heating system sounds good. I looked around on heatline.com but I didn't see anything for batteries, mostly just heating and insulation for plumbing, is there a specific product you're referring to? For the flip side of that coin, how hot can the cells get without harm? I ask because 100+ degree Fahrenheit days happen in Pennsylvania summers.

Val, I'm liking your charger and DC to DC converter but I have some questions about them. For starters, how large are they? I know I've seen dimensions before somewhere but I haven't been able to remember what there are or where I found them. Second, the charger's schematics show two cords for charging, one for 110v and one for 220v. Is there any reason they can't be the same cable but with different adapters? Lastly, does your DC to DC converter connect to a standard car battery or does it take the place of one?

I've decided to keep the WarP-9 in the plans, it seems to be well rounded with a large user base for potential support, but what is this "Jim Hustead treatment" I keep reading about?

Thanks a bunch, as always you're all a great help. I can't wait to get my ducks in a row so I can start my conversion.


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## dtbaker (Jan 5, 2008)

zeroexcelcior said:


> According to post number four on this thread, a WarP-9 maxed out is good for 200lb-ft, give or take.


sounds about right, but I haven't seen dyno to prove it. 





zeroexcelcior said:


> What exactly constitutes "extended high-draw highway miles"? I would like to drive twenty to thirty minute highway stretches eventually


I have not noticed controller/battery box heating much over ambient until about the 20 minute mark drawing 150-200 amps.




zeroexcelcior said:


> I looked around on heatline.com but I didn't see anything for batteries, mostly just heating and insulation for plumbing, is there a specific product you're referring to? For the flip side of that coin, how hot can the cells get without harm? I ask because 100+ degree Fahrenheit days happen in Pennsylvania summers.


the basic 1-8watt/per ft stuff was what I was looking at. building a serpentine cut into a layer of rigid insulation under batteries.




zeroexcelcior said:


> does your DC to DC converter connect to a standard car battery or does it take the place of one?


thats basically the way I treat it. The $99 job from Chennic seems fine. I added a tiny battery in parallel to soak up the voltage spike when the vacuum pump comes on.



zeroexcelcior said:


> what is this "Jim Hustead treatment" I keep reading about?


secret stuff; custom hand wound wire blessed by virgins.


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## zeroexcelcior (Aug 2, 2011)

dtbaker said:


> the basic 1-8watt/per ft stuff was what I was looking at. building a serpentine cut into a layer of rigid insulation under batteries.


Thanks for clarifying, this is what you're talking about, right?



dtbaker said:


> secret stuff; custom hand wound wire blessed by virgins.


So I see, but what is to be had from such divine alterations?


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## MN Driver (Sep 29, 2009)

dtbaker said:


> graphs and charts I have found are all at 72 volts... Common designs are 144v or even 156v. Does ANYONE have torque/HP curves 0-1000amps for Warp9 at 144v? 156v?
> 
> I know that we cannot run a Warp9 at 1000 amps for long, but I am wondering what the peak torque will actually be to decide how beefy a clutch/tranny would be required.


jackrickard.blogspot.com/2011/04/graphs-is-always-greener.html

Torque graphs here showing a little bit short of 280 ft lbs at 1000 amps. Some older posts on his blog showed a 700 motor amp chart that might help extrapolating 600 motor amp peaks for the Soliton Junior.

Hope this helps!


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## valerun (Nov 12, 2010)

zeroexcelcior said:


> The EV Display looks like just the thing, thanks!
> 
> Val, I'm liking your charger and DC to DC converter but I have some questions about them. For starters, how large are they? I know I've seen dimensions before somewhere but I haven't been able to remember what there are or where I found them. Second, the charger's schematics show two cords for charging, one for 110v and one for 220v. Is there any reason they can't be the same cable but with different adapters? Lastly, does your DC to DC converter connect to a standard car battery or does it take the place of one?


EV Display on bluetooth - a lot of Android devices would have issues keeping 3g connection if wifi is connected. That possibility is a no-no for our use as we will be integrating things with maps etc.

re charger - without PFC, it could be fit into ~10x10x8" including heatsink and fans. Also, without PFC, you would need 2 cords or a switch between 110 and 220V (similar to PC power supplies). You can probably add some circuitry to automatically switch but as far as I know, there are no plugs that are used for both 110V and 220V charging stations so you will need 2 receptacles anyway. 

With the PFC pre-stage, you have a true universal input - at the expense of a bit lower (~5% lower) efficiency. The main benefit of the PFC IMO is ability to draw full rated currents from public charging stations. Without PFC, you might find that you will trip 30A EVSE at 20A...

Hope this helps.

V


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## dtbaker (Jan 5, 2008)

zeroexcelcior said:


> what is to be had from such divine alterations?


I think that using slightly different diameter wire, with better insulation, a hand-wound job enables more current at higher voltage andbearing upgrades or balancing may allow higher rpm.... all to get that last little bit of high performance for racing.

ya gotta have something to mess with if there's no carburetor.


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## zeroexcelcior (Aug 2, 2011)

-blows dust off of thread-

It's been some time since I've updated on my progress, classes have been taking up most of my time and attention lately but the planning is still in motion and my idea has evolved quite a bit since my last post.

What's the same:
1975 Fiat 124 Spider
Warp9 motor
Soliton 1
CALB 100Ah cells

What's different:
Planning to replace transmission with a two speed powerglide (converterless).
Planning to reduce initial battery size from 70 cells to 46 cells (~147v) to get rolling and then upgrade the pack later.

Right now I'm still in restoration and maintenance stage of the project and things are moving slow but I intend to keep posting as the project develops.

Slightly unrelated, I'll need to replace the stock sealed-beam headlights with something that will actually provide night time visibility, what are you guys and gals using for headlights?


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## valerun (Nov 12, 2010)

zeroexcelcior said:


> -blows dust off of thread-
> 
> It's been some time since I've updated on my progress, classes have been taking up most of my time and attention lately but the planning is still in motion and my idea has evolved quite a bit since my last post.
> 
> ...


Thx for update. Quick suggestion: go with 60AH cells, esp given that you have a Soliton1 capable of running as many 60AH cells as you can put in that car anyway.

We ended up tearing the car apart in the last 2 weeks to replace all 100AH cells with 60AH cells - we just could not get the performance we needed out of 100AH setup - high voltage we needed for Kostov 250V motor would require super-heavy 100AH pack. Granted, you don't quite have the same HV requirements but my guess is you will find performance of even a lower-voltage Warp9 quite unsatisfactory with 147V nominal pack that will sag to 120V at high current.


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## zeroexcelcior (Aug 2, 2011)

Update Time!

Whats the Same:
1975 Fiat 124 Spider

What's Different:
38 180Ah CALB cells
650A HPEVS AC-50 kit

A recent trip to Minnesota put into perspective just how hilly Pennsylvania is. That combined with wanting to keep engine braking sent me looking for an AC induction motor and controller to take advantage of regen. After much research both here and elsewhere I think HPEVS's AC-50 motor and a properly configured Curtis 1238-7601 will be a perfect replacement to the 1756 cc Italian four currently living under the hood. I understand well and good that I can get a far more powerful DC system, but I feel the advantages of AC induction outweigh the raw power series DC offers.

Going with the lower voltage Curtis meant far fewer cells than what I planned to pair with either Soliton. While I was hesitant about this at first, it seems the consensus of those who use the AC-50 is that highway acceleration is just fine. A lower voltage pack also allows me to go with higher Ah cells, namely the dense CALB 180's, without exceeding my arbitrary pack weight limit of 500 pounds (469 for the cells) while yielding about 60 miles range at 300 W/mi, though it sounds like I should be able to get closer to 250 W/mi with regenerative braking. The larger cells have a higher discharge rate compared to the 100 Ah's (54 vs 30 amps continuous, 1000 vs 800 amps peak) so the pack shouldn't break a sweat with a 650 amp controller and should last a good long time.

I was considering using a converterless Powerglide transmission with an aftermarket 2.08:1 low gear with the intentions of introducing simplicity and lightness. However after some reading I've discovered that even without the tailshaft, torque converter, and bell housing, the two speed planetary would weigh _more_ than the existing five speed manual. That in addition to the expense of the new transmission and gearset (about $4000 total), keeping the stock transmission seems to be the best choice for this conversion.

As I've said before in other posts, I'm still in the restoration and planning stage. I probably will be for some time, but I'll continue to update as I learn more and events unfold. Once again, thank you all, this forum has been an indispensable treasure trove of information.


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## tomofreno (Mar 3, 2009)

Boy, you're likely to get a ration of trashin' on this site for going with a lower power and torque system, even though you said you realize that is the case. But as I have said before, it depends on what you want. What is "good acceleration at highway speed" to some, is sluggish to others, and ridiculously high to yet others. Would be nice if people would use numbers to quantify. I have an AC50/7501 controller in an about 2260 lb car and think its acceleration is good - 0 to 40 in 8 seconds, 0 to 60 in 16 seconds, but that wouldn't nearly satisfy some. With the 7601 controller with 18% more current you will get about 18% greater peak torque and acceleration. Scale that for relative weight and you get an idea of what you will have - compare that to the stock performance to calibrate yourself. Good luck, and I don't care what you do, its your conversion, just have fun!


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