# Planning Nissan 240sx restoration/possible conversion



## Moltenmetal (Mar 20, 2014)

Sounds like a lovely project and a great car to start with.

200 mile range is out- pretty much irrespective of how much your budget is, unless you want to sacrifice weight distribution and cargo space. 100 mile range might be possible, but will be costly. I have 100 km range (60 miles) with a car which is lighter than yours and it was all I could afford with prismatic cells. You may fare better with used Leaf or Volt cells which are the thing people are using in DIY conversions now unless they care way more about ease and function than money- they're less than half the price of prismatic cells, or can be.

If performance is your main driver, DC is likely going to give you the most bang for your buck, unless you want to try repurposing a drivetrain out of an OEM electric car. There are some here who are doing so, and it may offer a performance AC option, but it isn't exactly a simple DIY conversion like putting an HPEVS AC50 in my Spitfire was for me. DC comes with some maintenance and without regenerative braking, but way more torque and power for top speed. Doubt you'd need Siamese DC motors to be happy, but others may differ- I'm not a performance guy. Siamese AC motors are expensive- two expensive controllers required, but again if money is no object...you'll soon be out of money!

Power steering and brakes are a matter of some extra complexity. Heat simply comes with a small loss in range and a little extra work. AC is more troublesome. There aren't a lot of options to make this easy to do.


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## Tizzle240 (Mar 21, 2016)

Moltenmetal said:


> Sounds like a lovely project and a great car to start with.
> 
> 200 mile range is out- pretty much irrespective of how much your budget is, unless you want to sacrifice weight distribution and cargo space. 100 mile range might be possible, but will be costly. I have 100 km range (60 miles) with a car which is lighter than yours and it was all I could afford with prismatic cells. You may fare better with used Leaf or Volt cells which are the thing people are using in DIY conversions now unless they care way more about ease and function than money- they're less than half the price of prismatic cells, or can be.
> 
> ...


Thank you very much for the information, yeah i havnt even attempted to try to figure out the battery situation, its good to know that the 200mile mark is not really achievable. The AC/DC debate has been going on in my head for like 2 weeks now, im not sure how i wish to go to be honest, im not that familiar with regenerative braking but i will look into the link you provided. How are you liking your HPEVS AC50?

In addition, i was considering looking into a dual shaft motor so that i may create a basic pulley system for the AC and PW steering, i know i would still need to pick up an electric vacuum pump for the power brakes though. Have you or anyone you know attempted this. I know it should reduce range but i want it to be comfortable to drive.


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## Moltenmetal (Mar 20, 2014)

I love my AC50 in my ~1900 lb Spitfire, but you might find it too sluggish for your liking. But to give you an idea- I never use my clutch to take off- just to shift gears. I can take off comfortably in 2nd and ok in 3rd, though having a fixed speed would be embarrassing if I wanted a top speed above 70 mph. The tranny is essential with the AC50 unless you are willing to compromise on either top speed or acceleration.

Regen braking is awesome- way less wear and tear on the brakes. Modest range gains though unless you're in really hilly country. But a big DC motor with the right controller and a large pack so you have enough current capacity will rock your world with torque...

Generally people run separate electric pumps for PS and PB. Lots of cars here in the garage and build threads have done it. Idling your drive motor is pretty much a waste for that purpose. But for A/C it might be worth it- there are no easy DC driven A/C compressors out there. There are builds here with pulley systems for you to look at.


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## dougingraham (Jul 26, 2011)

Tizzle240 said:


> Thank you very much for the information, yeah i havnt even attempted to try to figure out the battery situation, its good to know that the 200mile mark is not really achievable.


It is achievable, you just wouldn't enjoy the car anymore. It would be an overweight pig using the currently available batteries. 60 to 100 miles of range is a better range to shoot for. The car will end up perhaps a little heavier than stock which will make it handle as you expect.



Tizzle240 said:


> The AC/DC debate has been going on in my head for like 2 weeks now, im not sure how i wish to go to be honest, im not that familiar with regenerative braking but i will look into the link you provided.


If you like to drag race then a DC solution is the most cost effective today. If most of your miles are at highway speeds then Regen will gain you almost nothing. If you use this as your daily driver in stop and go traffic then you could gain as much as 10 to 15 percent range from the regen. 



Tizzle240 said:


> In addition, i was considering looking into a dual shaft motor so that i may create a basic pulley system for the AC and PW steering, i know i would still need to pick up an electric vacuum pump for the power brakes though. Have you or anyone you know attempted this. I know it should reduce range but i want it to be comfortable to drive.


I would look into using electric versions of these devices. If you put the AC and PS pumps on the shaft that pretty much implies you are going to idle the electric motor to keep pressure.

The only reason to go for a dual motor Siamese arrangement would be if you were planning on eliminating the transmission. A dual motor WarP 9 setup with 300+ volt battery could give around 500 ft-lb of torque. It looks like the final drive is 4.08 so assuming about 1 ft radius on the tires you would see about 2040 lbs of thrust at the face of the tire. On a 2700 lb car this would be around 0.76 G. You would see this from 0 to around 3500 rpm. Torque would taper off from there up to red line on the motors which would be 6000 RPM. You would have that full torque up to about 62 mph. Top speed at 6000 RPM would be 105 mph but I doubt you would get there due to the tapering of torque and the increase in aero drag. A gearbox would be required. I threw my numbers into my drag sim and get the following somewhat optimistic numbers.

60' time of 1.94 secs @ 37 mph
60mph in 3.6 seconds
1/8 mile in 7.6 secs at 95 mph
1/4 mile in 11.92 at 104.9 mph

Those times neglect air drag and rolling resistance which is higher on a sticky track. It also neglects the losses in the differential. Still I would expect to see 0-60 times of under 5 seconds. This would be a quick car although not a fast one. This would be a somewhat twitchy street car with currents set to 1000 amps. It is easy to tame by turning down the current limit on the motor side of the controller.

What you do depends on your goals A nice street car would use a single AC-50 and keep the transmission. My RX-7 which is lighter than your car can do 60 miles and 0-60 in around 6 seconds and reach 100 mph pretty easily with a single WarP 9 motor on the stock transmission and rear end with stock tires. It weighs about 100 lbs over stock. I dont have power steering or AC anymore. I do have a vac pump for the brake assist.

Best wishes on your project!


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## Tizzle240 (Mar 21, 2016)

dougingraham said:


> It is achievable, you just wouldn't enjoy the car anymore. It would be an overweight pig using the currently available batteries. 60 to 100 miles of range is a better range to shoot for. The car will end up perhaps a little heavier than stock which will make it handle as you expect.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thank you for your feedback, my apologies if i made it seem like i was only focused on drag racing, that was just the only scenario i had to use since it was last time this car really ran. Its starting to seem like it may be best for me to stick with a gas engine for this particular vehicle and i need to look for another vehicle for my first EV.


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## dougingraham (Jul 26, 2011)

Tizzle240 said:


> Thank you for your feedback, my apologies if i made it seem like i was only focused on drag racing, that was just the only scenario i had to use since it was last time this car really ran. Its starting to seem like it may be best for me to stick with a gas engine for this particular vehicle and i need to look for another vehicle for my first EV.


I think this could make a good conversion. With any conversion you have to decide what you most want it to do. Set your goals. My RX-7 was going to be my daily driver. And I mostly met this goal. I need to work on the heater and tolerate the heat in the summer or drive something else on those few days when the temps are excessive. I didn't plan well enough to allow for AC. I may do another conversion and I will do a better job of planning next time.

Best Wishes!


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## minispeed (Jun 30, 2013)

If you're going to go with a single motor DC set up I think you could easily get away with eliminating the power steering system. You'll be taking a lot of weight off of the front tires. If you put most of the battery weight in the back you can significantly change the distribution that that car has stock.

The KA24E is about 388lbs dry. You'll also be taking out the coolant, oil, rad, headers, cat, fan and other parts so lets just say 425lbs est. off of the front. Put on about 200lbs for a warp9, an adapter and a controller so you'll take 225lbs off of the front and add 400lbs of batteries to the back. This would probably let you run with 10-20mm less tire in the front for similar grip. I'd also recommend running it at 44+psi for extra range while daily driving which will make it easier to turn. I would certainly try looping the power steering hoses first and worry about it later. You can also bump up to a slightly larger steering wheel to compensate too. You may be able to make a frunk too to compensate for losing some trunk space.

I did some quick searching and don't know if you have the hatch back or coupe but the distribution is about 55F 45R. At 2762lbs stock that's 1519lbs F 1242lbs R. After you might have a spread up to 1294 F and 1642 R 44F and 56 R.


You stated a proper sports car, now everyone is different but my definition of that includes great steering feedback. If it hurts your arms then drive it more to get stronger. If you want quick and comfort you're building a GT car. The feel will always be better in a manual rack car. I know the US 240s got stuck with a heavy truck engine, I would imagine Nissan did some non sporty power steering mods to go along with that non sporty engine.


You can do the same with AC. Leave everything there and don't worry about how to get it working until the car is working. There's no use spending time and money on an non essential item if the project gets delayed or never finished because of it.

I wish you luck with the conversion, I've always been a big fan of the 240.


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

I would go along with minispeed - we didn't use to have power steering!
My Lancia Spyder was probably nearly as heavy and front wheel drive - drove superbly

The only time you noticed the steering was when parking - and is it that important to be able to park without using some muscle??


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## minispeed (Jun 30, 2013)

Duncan said:


> I would go along with minispeed - we didn't use to have power steering!
> My Lancia Spyder was probably nearly as heavy and front wheel drive - drove superbly
> 
> The only time you noticed the steering was when parking - and is it that important to be able to park without using some muscle??


 
With the extra torque you can just do a burn out to turn the car LOL


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## bigmotherwhale (Apr 15, 2011)

if you do want power steering it is very easy to adapt the electric power steering from the vauxhall corsa B, very quiet and efficient and compact, its a quite a common mod for classic minis now.

i personally wouldn't bother, but i thought you might want to know rather than using a power hungry hydraulic system.


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## Tizzle240 (Mar 21, 2016)

Hey Everyone,


Sorry for the long break since my last response. I had a lot of personal things come up.

So ive done alot of thinking and i really want to do the EV conversion vs keeping it gas. At the same time i dont want to lose alot of the comforts that it currently has. I want it to be a vehicle purely for fun cruising and maybe even the occasional track/drag visit.

That being said i came across an accessory adapter at EV West. This is an example of the one for the warp 9/11
http://www.evwest.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=30&products_id=108

I was curious if anyone had any feedback on EV West as a company.

I am also stumped on how to decide on which motor to go with.

So i first want to decide between HPEVS AC or a Warp 9/11 DC. i wish to use regenerative braking, if possible having the accessory drive, im not sure there. Ive been told the transmission you use and your diff ratio can play a factor and was curious if there was some advice i could get on the subject.

I planned to use the Stock transmission in the 240 it is :
1st = 3.321
2nd= 1.902
3rd = 1.308
4th = 1.000 (Direct Drive)
5th = 0.759 (Over Drive)

FD = 4.083

I hope this is enough info to continue planning things out. I look forward to hearing from you guys. Feel free to ask any quesitons.


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## Tizzle240 (Mar 21, 2016)

I am having trouble finding some conversions/calculators, to deterimine how many batteries i will need. I think im going to play it safe and just go for a 100mile range if possible.

The budget on this car is going to be 20-30k since it will be a full restoration


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## minispeed (Jun 30, 2013)

From what I've seen bounced around a lot figure on using 250wh per mile then consider you only want to use 80% of the pack so divide by that. 250x100÷.8=31250.

Just so happens that's very economical number to get since it's 2 used volt packs (16 or a bit more depending on year) or 1.5 leaf packs (that's actually 36 but count on them being degraded). You can get that for as low as $4k but more realistically if you don't wait for a great deal or drive far you'll find a volt pack for $2500. Consider that it'll be well over $10k to buy new cells.


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## Tizzle240 (Mar 21, 2016)

minispeed said:


> From what I've seen bounced around a lot figure on using 250wh per mile then consider you only want to use 80% of the pack so divide by that. 250x100÷.8=31250.
> 
> Just so happens that's very economical number to get since it's 2 used volt packs (16 or a bit more depending on year) or 1.5 leaf packs (that's actually 36 but count on them being degraded). You can get that for as low as $4k but more realistically if you don't wait for a great deal or drive far you'll find a volt pack for $2500. Consider that it'll be well over $10k to buy new cells.



Thanks Mini,

Out of curiosity, is it just easier to buy the used packs vs building your own or is there another reason people suggest them?


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## Tizzle240 (Mar 21, 2016)

So i think i have decided on the power plant.

I think im going to go with a Curtis 1239-8501 HPEVS AC-76 Brushless AC, HPEVS Curtis 1239-8501 144V 500 AMP Controller, 

I think i might also pickup EV West Accessory Plate & Pump System For HPEVS AC-76 so i can do power everything and AC.

I could be doing this wrong, i tried using the calculations from this http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showthread.php?t=11709

but im thinking to get the hundred mile range i would need to have batteries that are atleast 500mah? I did that based on the 300wh to be safe.


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## Yabert (Feb 7, 2010)

Tizzle240 said:


> Out of curiosity, is it just easier to buy the used packs vs building your own or is there another reason people suggest them?


If a can add my opinion... 
Used cells from electric car: higher quality cells, higher quality battery pack design,easier to build and a lower price.


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## minispeed (Jun 30, 2013)

Tizzle240 said:


> minispeed said:
> 
> 
> > From what I've seen bounced around a lot figure on using 250wh per mile then consider you only want to use 80% of the pack so divide by that. 250x100÷.8=31250.
> ...



I haven't bought a pack yet. I didn't get serious into considering anything other than used tesla,/leaf/volt when i looked at price. I ruled tesla out because of complexity and price even though there is a great weight savings.

I think it would easier to use something like CALB. They are nice and square and you dont have to first take it appart. Leaf looks to be a bit easier than volt because each module is much smaller. You can just add multiples of 8.4v with the leaf with volt modules its more like a tetris game to make the various size modules fit.

I am still a few years away from buying a pack. I think with the ever changing landscape it's best to get a car rolling on basically a 12v lead acid test then look at whats on the market. There could be a used bolt pack from a wrecker in 6 months. Leaf packs could double in a year too. 

I thought the ac 7X series was no longer available. I have seen it still listed at vendors but not on hpevs site last i checked. Some of those same vendors still had the soliton jr listed for "add to cart" but said not available when i emailed. I think a dual 35 or 36 was given as a simpler solition to the ac 7x range when i read about why it was no longer available but dont quote me on it.


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## Moltenmetal (Mar 20, 2014)

You'll need batteries of 500 Ah, not 500 mAh... You're talking about needing 30-ish kWh of storage per minispeed's calc, and you need to stay within the limits of the Curtis 1239 controller on maximum pack voltage. That controller is, if I remember correctly, 144V nominal input. I don't know what the voltage input max is, you'll need to look it up- on the 96V 1238 controller it's 130 V maximum input, i.e. the resting voltage when your pack is at its highest state of charge has to be below that limit. 

Make sure you carefully check out the power and torque curves on HPEVS's website for whatever you intend to buy. IIRC the 1239 controller is limited to 500 A, whereas the 1238 puts out 650 A. That means less bottom-end torque for the 1239, in return for letting you use a higher battery voltage. Is that good or bad? Depends what you're after. Torque is off the line performance and it's the thing that most people love about their EV conversions. I'm very satisfied with my 650 A in my 1900 lb Spitfire. I might even have been satisfied with 500 A- when I limited the controller initially to 500 A it was still very fun to drive. But your mileage will vary.


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## Tizzle240 (Mar 21, 2016)

minispeed said:


> I haven't bought a pack yet. I didn't get serious into considering anything other than used tesla,/leaf/volt when i looked at price. I ruled tesla out because of complexity and price even though there is a great weight savings.
> 
> I think it would easier to use something like CALB. They are nice and square and you dont have to first take it appart. Leaf looks to be a bit easier than volt because each module is much smaller. You can just add multiples of 8.4v with the leaf with volt modules its more like a tetris game to make the various size modules fit.
> 
> ...


Hmm, ill have to take a look at that, i may end up just going with a 5x




Moltenmetal said:


> You'll need batteries of 500 Ah, not 500 mAh... You're talking about needing 30-ish kWh of storage per minispeed's calc, and you need to stay within the limits of the Curtis 1239 controller on maximum pack voltage. That controller is, if I remember correctly, 144V nominal input. I don't know what the voltage input max is, you'll need to look it up- on the 96V 1238 controller it's 130 V maximum input, i.e. the resting voltage when your pack is at its highest state of charge has to be below that limit.
> 
> Make sure you carefully check out the power and torque curves on HPEVS's website for whatever you intend to buy. IIRC the 1239 controller is limited to 500 A, whereas the 1238 puts out 650 A. That means less bottom-end torque for the 1239, in return for letting you use a higher battery voltage. Is that good or bad? Depends what you're after. Torque is off the line performance and it's the thing that most people love about their EV conversions. I'm very satisfied with my 650 A in my 1900 lb Spitfire. I might even have been satisfied with 500 A- when I limited the controller initially to 500 A it was still very fun to drive. But your mileage will vary.


Ok, see i knew i wasnt understanding it correctly, im going to have to read up some more i think. Is there any harm in say having a battery that has a higher Ah then needed?


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