# [EVDL] How to do air conditioning? or 300VDC motor?



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Bill Ferguson wrote:
> 
> > Has anyone put air conditioning in their EV conversion? If so, how
> > did you do it or how would you do it?
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Mark is looking into a solid-state A/C unit for the Mustang (he is planning 
on installing it himself, I think), and I think I should be able to get one 
soon for other projects; but it isn't available yet.

Joseph H. Strubhar

Web: www.gremcoinc.com

E-mail: [email protected]

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Bill Ferguson" <[email protected]>
To: "EV" <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, July 03, 2009 8:30 PM
Subject: [EVDL] How to do air conditioning? or 300VDC motor?


> EV experts,
>
> Has anyone put air conditioning in their EV conversion? If so, how
> did you do it or how would you do it?
>
> It seems the easiest way would be to add a small electric motor to
> power the existing air conditioner compressor, but I'm having trouble
> finding one that would work. I need a high quality, professional
> looking/performing solution, because we plan to sell the car.
>
> Does anyone know where I could buy a small electric motor that will
> run off 300V DC? It could be either brushless or with brushes, one
> hp. RPM could be 2,000 to 8000 rpm. I don't know if anyone makes a
> motor like this.
>
> I'm with a small group that is making our first electric car. We have
> a 2001 Honda Civic, have removed the gas motor and will be putting in
> an AC motor, controller, lithium-ion batteries and other electronics.
>
> We need a DC motor to run the air conditioner. Our battery pack is 96
> cells at 3.2 V each, so our battery pack will be 308 V. We have to
> have high voltage, in order to provide enough power to the AC motor.
> We can't run it off 12V, because it would take too much current from
> our DC/DC converter.
>
> Does anyone know a company or a brand that sells a small, electric,
> off-the-shelf, DC motor, along with the controller, that is powered
> by 300V DC? I found one company, Anaheim Automation, but they don't
> have a controller/driver for 300VDC.
>
> I see one or 2 companies sell a complete AC compressor, such as Cool
> Blue, but it's AC, so their plan to buy both the compressor and and
> inverter makes it more expensive and more complicated.
>
> Any ideas on a good solution would be appreciated.
>
> Thank you,
> Bill Ferguson
> eeVee Motors
> -------------- next part --------------
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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Hello Bill,

I install a standard face mounted auto A/C unit in my EV that does not run 
off the main battery pack or any accessory power. It runs off the kinetic 
energy of the main motor when the main motor is not energized by the main 
battery pack.

This works good in a area where you have roller coaster hills, rather then 
constant flat level driving. If you do a lot of coast, stop and go, this 
method can also work.

I also have a backup electric motors that will run off the main battery 
pack. This is directly belted to the main multi-groove drive pulley which 
is then belted to the standard air condition electric clutch which cycle's 
on and off depending on the demand.

Just use a golf type motor with it controller. I tested them system with 
three thread mill motors gang together using four Iota's DC-DC converters 
that were series-parallel together to give me any combination of 120 to 480 
vac in and 14.5 to 58 volts out, which could run these motors from 1500 to 
3000 rpm which is about the right rpm for the A/C unit.

The main drive pulley is also driven by the pilot shaft of the main motor 
which can engage and disengaged by use of a large A/C electric clutch that 
is attach to the shaft of the main drive pulley.

So far, I have not use the electric motors to drive the A/C unit, only the 
kinetic energy of the main motor. Every time, that I am on a down hill run, 
I let up on the accelerator, this turns on a micro-switch on the accelerator 
control unit which turns on a 12 volt power relay, which turns on the 12 
volt A/C control power to the A/C relays that control the high and low limit 
switches for the A/C.

Even at times, when this 12 volt circuit turns on, the A/C clutch may not 
come on, because the A/C demand for cooling may not come on during my down 
hill runs.

I use a summer-winter switch where this same type of operation works for the 
electric heating or the A/C. The electric heating also do not use main 
battery power directly. It is power by a rotating combination 
inverter-alternator that can supply 13.5 to 16 volts at 145 amps and at the 
same time provide 110 VDC 7KW which is inverted to 130 VAC 60 cycle 5KW 
which is use to run 120 vac heaters, pumps, and fans.

This system provides a regenerative type of braking on my down hill runs 
which can hold the EV down in speeds. The EV could get up to over 80 mph if 
some type of braking is not use which I did one time on a glare ice.

Roland

Roland


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Bill Ferguson" <[email protected]>
To: "EV" <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, July 03, 2009 8:30 PM
Subject: [EVDL] How to do air conditioning? or 300VDC motor?


> EV experts,
>
> Has anyone put air conditioning in their EV conversion? If so, how
> did you do it or how would you do it?
>
> It seems the easiest way would be to add a small electric motor to
> power the existing air conditioner compressor, but I'm having trouble
> finding one that would work. I need a high quality, professional
> looking/performing solution, because we plan to sell the car.
>
> Does anyone know where I could buy a small electric motor that will
> run off 300V DC? It could be either brushless or with brushes, one
> hp. RPM could be 2,000 to 8000 rpm. I don't know if anyone makes a
> motor like this.
>
> I'm with a small group that is making our first electric car. We have
> a 2001 Honda Civic, have removed the gas motor and will be putting in
> an AC motor, controller, lithium-ion batteries and other electronics.
>
> We need a DC motor to run the air conditioner. Our battery pack is 96
> cells at 3.2 V each, so our battery pack will be 308 V. We have to
> have high voltage, in order to provide enough power to the AC motor.
> We can't run it off 12V, because it would take too much current from
> our DC/DC converter.
>
> Does anyone know a company or a brand that sells a small, electric,
> off-the-shelf, DC motor, along with the controller, that is powered
> by 300V DC? I found one company, Anaheim Automation, but they don't
> have a controller/driver for 300VDC.
>
> I see one or 2 companies sell a complete AC compressor, such as Cool
> Blue, but it's AC, so their plan to buy both the compressor and and
> inverter makes it more expensive and more complicated.
>
> Any ideas on a good solution would be appreciated.
>
> Thank you,
> Bill Ferguson
> eeVee Motors
> -------------- next part --------------
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> Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
> Archives: http://evdl.org/archive/
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>
> 

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Bill
It would seem to me that you don't need a controller ( unless it's an AC
motor) for the motor that powers your stock air conditioner compressor. I
would think you could just switch on the motor ( assuming it won't overspeed
with no load) and then engage the A/C compressor clutch with the existing
A/C controls. Maybe you could even turn on the motor with the same signal
that powers the compressor clutch.

Phil



> Bill Ferguson <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> > EV experts,
> >
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

I haven't looked in to this one myself but happened to have this bookmarked:
http://lonestar914ev.blogspot.com/

At the bottom of that page he mentions buying an AC unit from here:

http://www.europeancoolerair.com/
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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

The USElectric news list is having a discussion about AC in their 
cars/trucks, here is a link that someone put up
http://www.sanden.com/index.php?id=TSPM4GG46

I've also found a place in Austin, run by some EVer's
http://www.revoltcustomelectric.com/components-accessories.html
that use these compressors
http://www.masterflux.com/products/sierra/

I got a quote from them and for my 180v system it would cost about $1000 for 
a setup, sort of pricey for me, but it is a complete system.

Rush
Tucson AZ


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Hi, Bill --

I installed A/C in my 2002 Chevy S-10. 

Got a 180vdc motor running off of my 156v pack. This 1 HP GE motor uses a
belt to drive a Denso compressor. (Yes, I realize the motor is
underpowered.)

Am I pleased with the result?

Mmm... sort of... but it's definitely sub-optimal.

When my finances recover, I'm going to replace the whole thing with a
MasterFlux.

Good luck with your project. A/C is definitely a challenge for the EV
converter.


Cheers from Houston,

Steve Kobb
http://www.myelectrictruck.com

-- 
View this message in context: http://www.nabble.com/How-to-do-air-conditioning--or-300VDC-motor--tp24332086p24338031.html
Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Run this off your 12V pack...or your 144V tap... or where ever... they offer
different voltages...

http://www.evdrive.com/BMW_project/AirConditioning.html

Bob Sisson
1993 Geo Metro Convertible Project
Gaithersburg MD


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Here is the link to the 300V compressor...

http://www.masterflux.com/products/sierra/

Bob Sisson
1993 Geo Metro Convertible Project
Gaithersburg MD



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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Just a thought for those planning AC systems for their EV's.

In addition to a compressor and all that remember that you need a FAN
behind the radiator/condenser. Preferably a big one. Or two. And they
need to run whenever the compressor is running.

Otherwise the heat will not dump out and the AC will not work. Bigger
the condenser the better. Bigger the fan, the better.

Just something to keep in mind. On my Prizm the AC is pretty good, but
if I add another fan behind the radiator it becomes incredibly cold.

Chris





> Bob Sisson wrote:
> > Here is the link to the 300V compressor...
> >
> > http://www.masterflux.com/products/sierra/
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

308V is a decent place to start at for a 208VAC 3 phase powered AC
unit. You would need an inverter. Some inverters will run off DC, like
some Baldor VFD 3 phase drives. A 100 Amp Azure drive would do it, but
that's overkill for something Civic sized.

I think masterflux doesn't do this anymore, but if they do, then that
solution would be ideal.

Solectria used to sell DC motors for this rated for 150V. Two PM
motors wired in series might do it. I think they were Baldor units. So
you could surf the Baldor website.

Good luck.


>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 5
> Date: Fri, 3 Jul 2009 20:30:19 -0700
> From: Bill Ferguson <[email protected]>
> Subject: [EVDL] How to do air conditioning? or 300VDC motor?
> To: EV <[email protected]>
> Message-ID: <[email protected]>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
> EV experts,
>
> Has anyone put air conditioning in their EV conversion? If so, how
> did you do it or how would you do it?
>
> It seems the easiest way would be to add a small electric motor to
> power the existing air conditioner compressor, but I'm having trouble
> finding one that would work. I need a high quality, professional
> looking/performing solution, because we plan to sell the car.
>
> Does anyone know where I could buy a small electric motor that will
> run off 300V DC? It could be either brushless or with brushes, one
> hp. RPM could be 2,000 to 8000 rpm. I don't know if anyone makes a
> motor like this.
>
> I'm with a small group that is making our first electric car. We have
> a 2001 Honda Civic, have removed the gas motor and will be putting in
> an AC motor, controller, lithium-ion batteries and other electronics.
>
> We need a DC motor to run the air conditioner. Our battery pack is 96
> cells at 3.2 V each, so our battery pack will be 308 V. We have to
> have high voltage, in order to provide enough power to the AC motor.
> We can't run it off 12V, because it would take too much current from
> our DC/DC converter.
>
> Does anyone know a company or a brand that sells a small, electric,
> off-the-shelf, DC motor, along with the controller, that is powered
> by 300V DC? I found one company, Anaheim Automation, but they don't
> have a controller/driver for 300VDC.
>
> I see one or 2 companies sell a complete AC compressor, such as Cool
> Blue, but it's AC, so their plan to buy both the compressor and and
> inverter makes it more expensive and more complicated.
>
> Any ideas on a good solution would be appreciated.
>
> Thank you,
> Bill Ferguson
> eeVee Motors
> -------------- next part --------------
>

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Bill,

You could direct feed the DC bus of a standard off-the-shelf VFD. You 
can get a 230V, 3 ph, 2 HP VFD for under $200. Then you could use a 
standard 2 HP, 4 pole induction motor to turn the A/C compressor 
shaft via a direct coupling. That seams like the cheapest and 
simplest way out for your voltage.

Roger



> Bill Ferguson wrote:
> 
> > EV experts,
> >
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> I need a high quality, professional
> looking/performing solution, because we plan to sell the car.

What about using a A/C compressor off the Ford Excape hybrid, it's electric and runs off of 200 volts DC input. I got this information from the Ford instructor and have not confirmed it yet.
>
> Does anyone know where I could buy a small electric motor that will
> run off 300V DC? It could be either brushless or with brushes, one
> hp. RPM could be 2,000 to 8000 rpm. I don't know if anyone makes a
> motor like this.
>
>
> Thank you,
> Bill Ferguson
> eeVee Motors

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

I think 216V is too low to run even a 200v motor. The difference is 
peak bs RMS. You need about 1.4X the RMS voltage at the bus.

Sent from my iPhone



> David Chapman <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> >
> > Roger,
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Hello Martin,

The summer-switch which is a on dash selector switch that is label 
Cool-Off-Heat just selects the control voltage for the A/C system and the 
heating system which is a combination of hot water heat for defrosting and 
in cab resistance heating.

The compressor for a A/C system can exchange from cool to heat or heat to 
cool. The compressor alone can convert 80 F. degree heat that is put under 
pressure. It then is cool while under compression and than expanded which 
then puts out 50 F.

This can be reversed where the 50 F. air is exchange to 80 F. air which is 
about the maximum differential for a vehicle, unless you have a large 
industrial type that can exchange cooler air to that temperature.

Take a temperature reading of the return line that comes from the A/C 
compressor that goes to condensers and record the difference of temperature 
between the feed and return lines vs the ambient temperature. In a vehicle 
as the ambient temperature gets lower, the temperature drops in proportion 
to about 50 degree differential.

At 0 degrees, you may be able to get 50 degrees heat out. I find that all I 
need for my electric hot water temperature to defrosted the windshield at 
any low temperature.

You have to remember that in some vehicles, there is incoming outside air 
that is use to temper the hot engine coolent which could be at or over 240 
F. I readjusted the outside air, because I did not need it to cool down my 
electric heating system.

Roland


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Martin Klingensmith" <[email protected]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, July 06, 2009 6:19 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] How to do air conditioning? or 300VDC motor?


>


> Roland Wiench<[email protected]> wrote:
> > > Even at times, when this 12 volt circuit turns on, the A/C clutch may
> > > not
> > > come on, because the A/C demand for cooling may not come on during my
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

A home A/C unit has a much larger evaporator area -- think of the typical
size of a pad mounted unit for a house -- which is often roughtly the same
size capacity as an SUV's A/C -- just with much larger heat exchangers to
increase the efficiency, and operating range.

On Mon, Jul 6, 2009 at 12:09 PM, Martin Klingensmith <
[email protected]> wrote:

>


> Roland Wiench<[email protected]> wrote:
> > > The compressor for a A/C system can exchange from cool to heat or heat to
> > > cool. The compressor alone can convert 80 F. degree heat that is put
> > under
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

As I followed the thread I was thinking why not use the compressor from
a prius. I believe these are the same on the ford. The are made by denso
and may operate of the boosted pack voltage. The controller is part and
parcel of the motor controller thought :-(

If you do this, you must recharge your system and use the correct oil in
the refrigerant, their is a special one for this high voltage
environment. The system normally operates with a variable rpm based on
demand. no cycling on a high pressure switch or use of a TXV. Not sure
how to implement this. (I have been thinking of doing this for my EV
when I switch to LiIon and recover some lost space)

>> > I need a high quality, professional
>> > looking/performing solution, because we plan to sell the car.
>> 
>
> What about using a A/C compressor off the Ford Excape hybrid, it's electric and runs off of 200 volts DC input. I got this information from the Ford instructor and have not confirmed it yet.
> >
> > Does anyone know where I could buy a small electric motor that will
> > run off 300V DC? It could be either brushless or with brushes, one
> > hp. RPM could be 2,000 to 8000 rpm. I don't know if anyone makes a
> > motor like this.
> >
> >
> > Thank you,
> > Bill Ferguson
> > eeVee Motors
>
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> 

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Sounds really complicated. If you were starting from scratch it 
wouldn't be that difficult to design a PID loop to modulate the 
compressor RPM based on desired evaporator temperature, or some other 
variable. However, retrofiting this into the existing climate control 
system sounds like a lot of work?



> Jeff Shanab wrote:
> 
> > As I followed the thread I was thinking why not use the compressor
> > from
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Roger Heuckeroth wrote:
> > Sounds really complicated. If you were starting from scratch it
> > wouldn't be that difficult to design a PID loop to modulate the
> > compressor RPM based on desired evaporator temperature, or some other
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Magnatek does 300V directly...

I posted a link to the compressors days ago...

They use a Brushless Motor that comes with its own controller/inverter
board...

No problems, no issues... I believe Metric Mind has a page showing how they
did it using the 250V version...

Bob Sisson
1993 Geo Metro Convertible Project
Gaithersburg MD

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Years ago (I think in 1998 or so) I did this with Leeson 6.7A
180V motor directly coupled to stock compressor: 
http://metricmind.com/dc_honda/ac1.jpg

I plan to use Masterflux unit in my conversion, as few my customers
do, for instance here:
http://www.evdrive.com/BMW_project/AirConditioning.html

I tried to arrange distributorship with Masterflux, but they are
too disorganized as far as communicating and slow to response,
so I probably will settle for some other company.

I'm not the expert on A/C, but I heard Masterflux compressors
need some specific oil to operate which is seen as disadvantage and
may not be the case with other manufacturers. This may not be the issue 
once the system is commissioned and works, but may be it is.

I have no first hand experience with it (will install one in ACRX
for trial), other that I inspected their inverter and I think this
is overkill complexity for just an A/C control.

Direct drive is not as slick as one integrated motor-compressor
piece but it let you to use stock compressor sized to the vehicle,
and independently choose external motor matching your battery.

With integrated solution you're stuck with provided combo, like
with integrated TV-VHS-DVD set - if you don't like one part of it
(or it breaks), you're stuck. Integrated thing is good for OEM and
if designed from ground up with particular vehicle in mind.
With conversion these advantages are not so apparent.
Solectria went for a simple belt driven solution years ago for good 
reason. Both ways have merits.

--
Victor
'91 ACRX - something different
'01 in-AUDI-ble handsome car with 0.4MW AC drive - work in progress.



> Bob Sisson wrote:
> > Magnatek does 300V directly...
> >
> > I posted a link to the compressors days ago...
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Metric Mind<[email protected]> wrote:
> > I tried to arrange distributorship with Masterflux, but they are
> > too disorganized as far as communicating and slow to response,
> > so I probably will settle for some other company.
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

You will need a inverter for the Prius compressor where as the ford compressor runs on DC.
----- Original Message ----- 
From: Jeff Shanab 
To: [email protected] 
Sent: Tuesday, July 07, 2009 6:55 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] How to do air conditioning? or 300VDC motor?


As I followed the thread I was thinking why not use the compressor from
a prius. I believe these are the same on the ford. The are made by denso
and may operate of the boosted pack voltage. The controller is part and
parcel of the motor controller thought :-(

If you do this, you must recharge your system and use the correct oil in
the refrigerant, their is a special one for this high voltage
environment. The system normally operates with a variable rpm based on
demand. no cycling on a high pressure switch or use of a TXV. Not sure
how to implement this. (I have been thinking of doing this for my EV
when I switch to LiIon and recover some lost space)

>> > I need a high quality, professional
>> > looking/performing solution, because we plan to sell the car.
>> 
>
> What about using a A/C compressor off the Ford Excape hybrid, it's electric and runs off of 200 volts DC input. I got this information from the Ford instructor and have not confirmed it yet.
> >
> > Does anyone know where I could buy a small electric motor that will
> > run off 300V DC? It could be either brushless or with brushes, one
> > hp. RPM could be 2,000 to 8000 rpm. I don't know if anyone makes a
> > motor like this.
> >
> >
> > Thank you,
> > Bill Ferguson
> > eeVee Motors
>
> _______________________________________________
> General EVDL support: http://evdl.org/help/
> Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
> Archives: http://evdl.org/archive/
> Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>
> -------------- next part --------------
> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
> URL: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/private/ev/attachments/20090705/97108c62/attachment.html 
>
> 

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Mark Farver wrote:
> 
> > Masterflux has decided to concentrate on the large OEM market and is
> > not accepting new distributors.
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> > Mark Farver wrote:
> >
> >> Masterflux has decided to concentrate on the large OEM market and is
> >> not accepting new distributors.
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

>> How is this setup "sub-optimal"? 

The air coming out of the events is... coolish. Not what I would call cold
air.

Also -- and of greater concern -- this motor gets really hot. I took a
reading on it some weeks ago, but I can't remember the exact temperature.
Probably should take another reading and then contact GE tech support.

The bottom line, though, is that I'm concerned that this 1HP motor is
under-sized for the load.


>> What rpm are you driving the compressor? 

Well, the motor is rated 1750 RPM at 180vdc, but the actual voltage as
supplied from the pack is usually around 165.


>> Which Denso compressor are you using and what refrigerant? 

Don't really know, actually. There are no labels or model numbers on the
compressor itself. This thing was installed by a local auto air-conditioning
shop. The next time I see the proprietor, I'll ask (just out of curiosity).

When I initially had them set it up for me, I was going to use an AC motor
powered by an inverter that took energy from its own Optima Blue Top. Well,
inrush spikes put the kabosh on that idea. The inverter didn't want to play
ball, and so the AC motor simply wouldn't run.

-- 
View this message in context: http://www.nabble.com/How-to-do-air-conditioning--or-300VDC-motor--tp24332086p24503245.html
Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

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----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Steve Kobb wrote:
> > The air coming out of the events is... coolish. Not what I would call cold
> > air.
> >
> ...


----------

