# Battery Question



## rbgrn (Jul 24, 2007)

Is everyone still using lead acid or have any NiMh, Li-Ion or Li-Po options become available? I know the original tesla roadster design called for something like 7000 Lithium Ion battery packs from laptops to make the superpack they were going to use and M1 batteries were supposed to replace those, but what's current?


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## Damon Henry (Jul 26, 2007)

You left out flooded NiCad, which is what I am using.


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## Snax (Jul 26, 2007)

I don't have my EV conversion finished past the gutting stage, but it will be using a sealed lead-acid type of battery primarily to limit maintenance requirements over flooded because half of them will be difficult to access.

No other technology is remotely financially feasible for me at this point.


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## jstack6 (Jul 26, 2007)

*batteries are key*

I used to have some pure electric EVs but the batteries have always been an issue with 4-5 year life from lead acid. I would only use sealed lead acid.

Now I see the only way to move ahead is with the advanced batteries like NiMH and Lithium. I now drive a 2005 Prius and I will make it into a plug-in hybrid. I am very willing to pay 10K for a higher capacity lithium battery pack. Mine is a salvage title so I won't lose a warrenty since I didn't get one. The Prius is so reliable I don't worry. I save enough to go Plug-in. 

I have contacted every PHEV converter and only recieved one offer from hybrids-plus in Colorado. It would be 24K for a small 20 mile range pack. The 60 mile setup would be 36K. I will have to wait a little longer. 

I feel the only way to advance EVs is to use advanced batteries. The cost will come down the more we use them. A Tesla at 92K or eBox at about 70K are more than the PHEV I think is resonable. So far only the promised plug-in will be affordable now. Someday more EVs will be in the 20-30K range and we can all afford a good one that is safe with non toxic long life batteries.


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## rbgrn (Jul 24, 2007)

Hopefully we'll also never see this on a car-battery scale either!

Overcharging LiPo Cells


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## Mannyman (Jul 26, 2007)

I selected PowerSonic (local company)PG-12V140FR , 144 Amp Hour batteries. I hope they work out.
When they run out I'll see where the price of Valence, A123, Altairnano, ThunderSky batteries are, and see what I can do.


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## rbgrn (Jul 24, 2007)

Just bumping this to the top. I wanna know what everyone's using


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## ohio (Jul 25, 2007)

the bolt in terms like to strip out and they are super hard to keep tight PG-12V140FR


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## Mannyman (Jul 26, 2007)

ohio said:


> the bolt in terms like to strip out and they are super hard to keep tight PG-12V140FR


What makes them strip out? What about using belleville washers as recommended on the EVDL?
http://www.electroauto.com/catalog/hardware.shtml


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## MountainTrek (Aug 10, 2007)

I have Lithium batteries in my 2WD Jeep. I am wanting to upgrade to a 4WD jeep, any advice on how to do that? My other post did not seem to take.

Eddie


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## KiwiEV (Jul 26, 2007)

MountainTrek said:


> I have Lithium batteries in my 2WD Jeep. I am wanting to upgrade to a 4WD jeep, any advice on how to do that? My other post did not seem to take.
> 
> Eddie


Hi Eddie, have you seen this guy's conversion for his 4WD jeep cherokee?


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## Mannyman (Jul 26, 2007)

While we're on lithium:
http://www.autobloggreen.com/2007/08/13/video-nail-drilled-through-a123-battery/


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## rbgrn (Jul 24, 2007)

Should I change Standard lead Acid to Standard Flooded Lead Acid and the same with premium?


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## Mannyman (Jul 26, 2007)

Depends what you want to know.
I'd like to know performance/price/make/model.

Lead Acid 
Starting batteries / Deep cycle batteries

Flooded/Wet cell batteries 
Valve Regulated Lead Acid (VRLA): 

AGM: Absorbed Glass Mat batteries
Gel cell Batteries
Lithium

lithium iron phosphate as cathode (LIFEPO4 technology)
Lithium Titanate (Altairnano)
Lithium Phospahte (A123)
Lithium Phosphate (Valence)
Nickel

Nickel-Cadmium (NiCad)
Nickel Metal Hydride (NiMH)
NickelZinc
ZincAir

etc
other...


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## rbgrn (Jul 24, 2007)

Ok you gave me an idea. How about a price/performance graph? Do we have all the figures we need? I'll produce it if anyone can get me the data.


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## Mannyman (Jul 26, 2007)

Chris Jones has a good comparison table:
http://www.geocities.com/[email protected]/EV/analysis/batt_comp.htm


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## xrotaryguy (Jul 26, 2007)

My current plan is to use this batery. Looking at it now, these have a max ambient charge temperature of 104F. I commonly see 120F in my garage. Maybe I should install a decent size fan to dissipate heat. I know many people use a small fan to exhaust poisonous gasses, but that will not keep heat down around here.


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## FalconEV (Aug 21, 2007)

For those that DO have the $$$ I can get you anything you want custom built. LiMn, LiFe, Ni-Zn
I need to know voltage, Ah desired, max current discharge needed, avg/nominal current discharge. and any dimensional req's.
check out falconev.com
serious buyers only
Andy


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## Mannyman (Jul 26, 2007)

Hi Andy,
Do you have any references?
Are there any vehicles on the road we can check out using your batteries?

Thanks,
Manny

Also there's a parts vendor section here:
http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/forumdisplay.php/parts-vendors-9.html


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## KiwiEV (Jul 26, 2007)

The AGM and Gel cell Batteries are never listed as Deep Cycle but I take it they can handle a deep discharge just fine? Anyone know?


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## TexomaEV (Jul 26, 2007)

I'm running flooded lead acid, and just bought a set of AGM batteries, for a second string of batteries to my EV. I plan on having both strings feeding the controller. Hoping the AGM string (72vdc) will handle most of the high amp draw during deadstarts, and the FLOODED string (78vdc) will help with the overall range once at cruising speed, and top off the AGM's when idle. We've been discussing this sort of arrangement on the EVDL just recently.


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## moldiebrownie (Aug 29, 2007)

Fifteen 8volt (120v) floodies from US battery. They also gave me a special carrying strap (bottom right of photo) and a whole box of stainless steel mounting hardware..neat! http://www.usbattery.com/pages/8vgolf.htm Batteries all came with speed caps which facilitates watering but I had to trade 5 in for single caps because they got in the way of some of my battery interconnects. I also got "L" terminals for lower resistance connections http://www.usbattery.com/pages/usbterminals.htm

When the local battery guy came by to deliver them...he asked where I wanted them and I pointed to a spot on my concrete garage floor that I cleared off for them. He asked if I wanted to throw down some cardboard or maybe some wood planks....I said no..thats ok...why?..acid or something? He said he had heard that if you place batteries on cement, they could discharge faster!? He didn't seem too confident saying this...sounds like an old wives tale! I subsequently spoke to a US battery guy on the phone and he got a good chuckle over it saying that this urban legend has been around for years!


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## Mr. Sharkey (Jul 26, 2007)

It wasn't an "urban legend" back in the days when battery cases were constructed of rubber compounds. The moisture of the concrete, along with the inherent acidity of cement actually _would_ cause discharge of any cells left sitting for an extended period.

Once battery cases were constructed of plastics, the discharge problem was no longer observed. Good thing, too, because I have four Rolls S-460 350 Ah, 6 volt batteries sitting on the floor of my garage, waiting to be put into an enclosure on my solar power system.


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## moldiebrownie (Aug 29, 2007)

Mr. Sharkey said:


> It wasn't an "urban legend" back in the days when battery cases were constructed of rubber compounds. The moisture of the concrete, along with the inherent acidity of cement actually _would_ cause discharge of any cells left sitting for an extended period.
> 
> Once battery cases were constructed of plastics, the discharge problem was no longer observed. Good thing, too, because I have four Rolls S-460 350 Ah, 6 volt batteries sitting on the floor of my garage, waiting to be put into an enclosure on my solar power system.


Yeah yeah!....now that you mention it Mr. Sharkey...I do remeber this fellow telling me something about how batteries used to be constructed of rubber cases (conversation was many months ago) and this was indeed a problem. Well, Im glad that we no longer have this one thing to worry about anymore. BTW...loved your bit in "Cool Fuel" ...real celibrity here folks!


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## Mr. Sharkey (Jul 26, 2007)

Aw, geez, that thing? CoolFuel Roadtrip? Those Aussies were making it up as they went along. Every time I watch the DVD of episode two I cringe. I posted a few pages of the inside story of that encounter: EV Pusher Meets the Eco-Trekker.


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## moldiebrownie (Aug 29, 2007)

Mr. Sharkey said:


> Aw, geez, that thing? CoolFuel Roadtrip? Those Aussies were making it up as they went along. Every time I watch the DVD of episode two I cringe. I posted a few pages of the inside story of that encounter: EV Pusher Meets the Eco-Trekker.


I had seen this post before and the series appeared again on another cable channel we suscribe to and upon the next viewing really noticed how scripted it all seemed. I figured...,"all well...as long as they are educating people to the used of alternative fuels and electric vehicles...its all good".


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## Ima-Gin (Sep 5, 2007)

I'm new to this, so forgive me if it's a stupid question..but why don't more people use Lithium Ion? That seems to be working really well in these cars, although it seems like they do cost a fortune. 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eliica
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tesla_Roadster


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## Mannyman (Jul 26, 2007)

Looks like you answered your own question.


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## sedonix (Sep 11, 2007)

My best hope for the future of modern transportation is the batteries this spin-off from caterpiller is working on. firefly.com With luck, maybe they will have the EV version ready by the time my regular batts wear out.


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## Mannyman (Jul 26, 2007)

Not anytime soon. Hopefully a battery maker licenses their tech.
If you email them the response isn't as enthusiastic as you'd might hope.

My EV club asked if they wanted to be a part of an EV technology event and amateur drag race and the response was as follows:



> Thanks for your inquiry. While we’d love to compete in this, we’re working on a couple of batteries that are optimized for applications different than EV. I’d love to know how it turns out, so please let me know when the event occurs so I can read the news.
> 
> 
> Best regards, Mil
> ...


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## sedonix (Sep 11, 2007)

Ya, its gonna be awhile. I'm not holding my breath. But I don't see any of the other technologies getting affordable any time soon either. At least this one make good sense. Their business model is to get established in the outdoor power tool market, but they do talk like they have the EV market in mind - later.

Greg


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## jrab (Jul 26, 2007)

Started out with wet cells (US125? that was a long time ago). Replaced the pack when they started to randomly die about 3 years later. Hated them. Watering was a complete pain, corrosion became an issue. But charging was easy and the range was great.

Replaced with flooded Nicads. Range dropped considerably (smaller pack due to the set being smaller). Performance also dropped for the same 120v pack. The STM100's can't deliver as many amps as a fat lead wet cell for as long. Charging went from dumb to more precise with an old Brusa charger and a Nicad profile.

Replaced Nicad with Odyssey sealed lead acids. Still under evaluation. I'm having charger problems, and since the charge needs to be regulated both at the bulk charge with a specific profile and at each battery with regs, things have gotten more complicated.


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## ohio (Jul 25, 2007)

my batterys are doing great so far


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## Greenflight (Sep 13, 2007)

Using good old Interstate U2200s. Held up good for the couple months I've been using them.


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## Cornelius (Sep 15, 2007)

My S-10 uses 24 Deka GC-15 lead acid batteries. 20 under the pickup bed, and 4 under the hood.


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## KiwiEV (Jul 26, 2007)

Thought this would be incredibly valuable information for anyone thinking of using Gel type batteries. 

"A downside to gel batteries is that there is a maximum charging voltage of 14.1 volts."

Just read it on this page here.
I was thinking of using gel type batteries too, but considering the voltage of my charger with an open circuit is about 15 to 16 volts, this would probably shorten the gel battery life incredibly.
Having learnt that you can only charge gel batteries at a maximum of 14.1 volts means I won't be using gel batteries. I think it'll be floodies all the way.
Thank heavens I found that article as I have a quote on the way for gel batteries and am getting ready to purchase!
Whew!


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## kittydog42 (Sep 18, 2007)

There are not too many gel batteries available anyway. You should look into AGM (absorbed glass mat) batteries as an alternative to gel if you don't want to use flooded batteries. Lots of people use AGM batteries.


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## jrab (Jul 26, 2007)

AGMs really require a specific charge too. Sure, all these batteries will take what ever you give them - for awhile. Going back to the charger, if it's not programmable or a solid cc/cv charger with set limits, you should stick to wet cells which can take a lot more abuse. The odyssey battery specifies no more than 14.7 V, but dump as much current into it as you can. A dumb charger isn't going to care - it'll keep floating the voltage up until the battery self regulates. Wet cells will offgas and keep fairly happy (not that you should overcharge too much though!). AGMs or gels will cook. Good, affordable battery management is the missing link for all DIY EVs, regardless of battery chemistry.


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