# [EVDL] EV Cost Justification



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

When I tell people that I'm converting a car to electric, the first 
thing I'm asked is "how much are you going to save?" Again and again 
I get the same questions right off the bat. How many of you get, or 
have gotten, the same response?

What I tell them is: I'm not doing it to save money on gas, and it 
will cost less than buying a new Prius. I'm doing it because I want 
to, and I can. And at least I'm doing something to help relieve our 
"addiction to oil".

I just got the August issue of Pollution Engineering and in it is an 
interesting article titled, "How Much is Life Worth?" This is 
slightly OT for this list, but I think list subscribers would be 
interested because it ties into the cost justification of EV issue.

The article reports that the EPA uses a cost justification model in 
their decision making process of determining whether the benefit of a 
proposed rule is justified. Back in 2004 each American life used in 
their model was worth $7.8 million... today its $6.9 million. Isn't 
it nice to know that amid all the skyrocketing costs of food and fuel 
at least our lives cheaper.

So, how many conversions does it take to save one life? At $20,000 
per conversion you would only have to save one life to justify 345 
conversions even at the cheaper cost of a life.

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

I had a guy pull up next to me at the Hill Top Caf=E9, and he said how much =

does it cost. I am looking at his 2008 large 4 wheel drive diesel pickup =

that you need a ladder to get in, I said it is cheaper than all the vehicle=
s =

you bought for the last 30 years.

I started to drive this vehicle in 1977 and I am still driving it today. =

Before I had a EV, I would buy a vehicle every 5 years which the first one =

cost me about $5200.00. The last one 30 years later would cost $55,000.00. =

So this is a average of $60,200/2 =3D $30,100.00 per every 5 years.

30 years / 5 =3D 6 vehicle purchases x $30,100.00 =3D $180,600.00

This is not including the cost of gasoline and engine maintenance.

My electric cost for 30 years with three battery pack replacements, two =

motors, two transmissions, accessory drive modifications, new =

instrumentation, two battery chargers and the list go's on, I am about at =

$90,000.00.

That that is about half the cost of a guy that has to get a new vehicle at =

least every 5 years, even if the trade in was 1/2 the list cost, the EV is =

still ahead if I sold it for a dollar.

Roland


----- Original Message ----- =

From: "Roger Heuckeroth" <[email protected]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, August 07, 2008 11:25 AM
Subject: [EVDL] EV Cost Justification


> When I tell people that I'm converting a car to electric, the first
> thing I'm asked is "how much are you going to save?" Again and again
> I get the same questions right off the bat. How many of you get, or
> have gotten, the same response?
>
> What I tell them is: I'm not doing it to save money on gas, and it
> will cost less than buying a new Prius. I'm doing it because I want
> to, and I can. And at least I'm doing something to help relieve our
> "addiction to oil".
>
> I just got the August issue of Pollution Engineering and in it is an
> interesting article titled, "How Much is Life Worth?" This is
> slightly OT for this list, but I think list subscribers would be
> interested because it ties into the cost justification of EV issue.
>
> The article reports that the EPA uses a cost justification model in
> their decision making process of determining whether the benefit of a
> proposed rule is justified. Back in 2004 each American life used in
> their model was worth $7.8 million... today its $6.9 million. Isn't
> it nice to know that amid all the skyrocketing costs of food and fuel
> at least our lives cheaper.
>
> So, how many conversions does it take to save one life? At $20,000
> per conversion you would only have to save one life to justify 345
> conversions even at the cheaper cost of a life.
>
> _______________________________________________
> General EVDL support: http://evdl.org/help/
> Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
> Archives: http://evdl.org/archive/
> Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>
> =


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> When I tell people that I'm converting a car to electric, the first 
> thing I'm asked is "how much are you going to save?" Again and 
> again I get the same questions right off the bat. How many of you 
> get, or have gotten, the same response?


I have a big red reflective-tape "X" across my fuel door - there's 
nothing under it since Ford used an Avcon in the grill. I get more 
comments about that than the fact it is electric, seeing as Ford tried 
to make it as stealth as possible. No-one ever asked how much it cost, 
a few ask how much to charge (I use public charging), and they all 
want to know my range. If they did bring up the cost, I'd say I drive 
it because it makes me feel good, not to save money.

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

I can only speak for my conversion. I converted a 1991 Dodge Dakota almost
two years ago. If I was buying gas for this vehicle at the EPA rated gas
mileage and using today's price/gal for gas it would be costing me $0.31 per
mile to operate this truck just for fuel. In the past two years I have had
zero oil changes, no antifreeze or other additives and no tune-ups. I have
had an electrician install a separate Meter that monitors the electricity
that I use to charge my truck; this includes the 144 volt pack and the 12
volt battery for the other systems. It is costing me $0.03 per mile to fuel
my truck with electric. I don't have the exact mileage that I have driven
the past two years but I would guess that I am putting at least 10,000 per
year on the truck as I drive it almost every day. The only additive that I
have used with the electric truck is distilled water from Wal-mart. I
average about a gal of water per month at $0.68 per galleon. I have been
asked the Cost Justification question many times and my answer is simple. I
do not depend on gas any more. Electric is cheaper and ready available and
it comes from the United States not like a large percent of our oil that we
use. Also one last thought, if we had a gas shortage tomorrow, I will still
be driving my electric truck. I have also completed a solar charger that I
hope will provide some if not all of the power needed for my truck. I am
still in the testing phase with this solar project. 

Thanks, Freddie 

http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/899 

http://www.southernev.com 

-----Original Message----- 

From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf
Of Roger Heuckeroth 

Sent: Thursday, August 07, 2008 1:26 PM 

To: [email protected] 

Subject: [EVDL] EV Cost Justification 

When I tell people that I'm converting a car to electric, the first 

thing I'm asked is "how much are you going to save?" Again and again 

I get the same questions right off the bat. How many of you get, or 

have gotten, the same response? 

What I tell them is: I'm not doing it to save money on gas, and it 

will cost less than buying a new Prius. I'm doing it because I want 

to, and I can. And at least I'm doing something to help relieve our 

"addiction to oil". 

I just got the August issue of Pollution Engineering and in it is an 

interesting article titled, "How Much is Life Worth?" This is 

slightly OT for this list, but I think list subscribers would be 

interested because it ties into the cost justification of EV issue. 

The article reports that the EPA uses a cost justification model in 

their decision making process of determining whether the benefit of a 

proposed rule is justified. Back in 2004 each American life used in 

their model was worth $7.8 million... today its $6.9 million. Isn't 

it nice to know that amid all the skyrocketing costs of food and fuel 

at least our lives cheaper. 

So, how many conversions does it take to save one life? At $20,000 

per conversion you would only have to save one life to justify 345 

conversions even at the cheaper cost of a life. 

_______________________________________________ 

General EVDL support: http://evdl.org/help/ 

Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv 

Archives: http://evdl.org/archive/ 

Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev 


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> On 7 Aug 2008 at 14:48, [email protected] wrote:
> 
> > It is costing me $0.03 per mile to fuel my truck with electric.
> 
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

At current fuel prices, depending on electricity rates in your area, it IS cheaper. I tell people that it doesn't cost less, it costs "different", meaning that I paid a lot of money up front, and now my operating and maintenance expenses and time wasted on such maintenance are much, much less than theirs.

It's kind of like hedging. Southwest airlines paid a bundle for aviation fuel 10 years ago on a 10 year contract on a bet that fuel prices would increase significantly. Well it happened, and now Southwest is the only airline that posted a profit last quarter while all the others are staring at bankruptcy because Southwest pre-paid their fuel bill years ago.

So, I paid $5k for a Beetle (and EV drivetrain, batteries and some repairs) that would have normally only been worth $1500.00. At $4/gallon vs. .10 kwh, I'm saving approximately $55.00/month over driving my DeLorean, my other ICE '74 Beetle, or my '06 GMC Canyon. I figured I'd have to drive for 16 months at $4/gallon to recover the cost of my batteries. After that, all savings go to recovering the cost of my car...until the battery pack wears out and then I start the process all over again. 

Face it, people don't want to hear altruistic reasons why they should drive an EV. It's the economy, stupid. The problem is, people can always tailor the stats to support their argument. Lee could come along and poke holes in my financial analysis, showing me that my EV is putting me in a bottomless financial hole. Someone else comes along and shows me stats that says my EV pollutes more than an ICE because of the extra load I place on my public utility, or that I'm really supporting terrorism more than ICE drivers because my solar panels are made by extremist Islam-o-fascists or whatever...blah, blah, blah.

I get tired of answering questions from people who've already made up their minds that what I'm doing is wrong or dumb. When I sense that I've been tried, convicted and sentenced before I opened my mouth, I just end the discussion.

Why worry about it? What's the "cost justification" for a 500 hp Mustang with NoS, street-slicks and a 2000 watt stereo? What's the justification for a guy who drives a Ford Excursion alone every day to his office downtown but only tows his boat 3 times a year? You don't owe anyone an explanation.
_________________________________
Message: 31
Date: Thu, 07 Aug 2008 11:49:36 -0700
From: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [EVDL] EV Cost Justification
To: [email protected]
Message-ID:

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; DelSp="Yes";
format="flowed"

> When I tell people that I'm converting a car to electric, the first
> thing I'm asked is "how much are you going to save?" Again and
> again I get the same questions right off the bat. How many of you
> get, or have gotten, the same response?



________________________________

Rich A.
Maryland
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/371.html
http://patriotfuel.blogspot.com/




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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

While I agree with your statement, I was comparing fuel cost to fuel cost. I
have no idea what it would cost to replace the gas engine in my Dakota, if
it was still there, so I did not include the batteries in my equation as I
equate the batteries along the same lines as the gas engine that was in the
truck. My batteries are about three years old as I bought them used when I
built my truck. I am hoping to get another year or two out of them. I would
love to know the normal life expectancy of a 4 cylinder gas engine because I
believe that you must somehow include this cost in your equation if you
include the cost of the batteries. I guess the bottom line for me is I know
that it is cheaper to drive electric because I see the savings every week in
the amount of money I have left out of my paycheck. I only wish that we had
affordable high density batteries that would last 10 years and get 150 miles
or more range in my truck then I would sell my gas vehicle and go all
electric. 

Have a great day, Freddie 

http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/899 

http://www.southernev.com 

-----Original Message----- 

From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf
Of EVDL Administrator 

Sent: Thursday, August 07, 2008 3:53 PM 

To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List 

Subject: Re: [EVDL] EV Cost Justification 



> On 7 Aug 2008 at 14:48, [email protected] wrote:
> 
> > It is costing me $0.03 per mile to fuel my truck with electric.
> 
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

[email protected](fhartsell) wrote:
> While I agree with your statement, I was comparing fuel cost to fuel cost. I
> have no idea what it would cost to replace the gas engine in my Dakota, if
> it was still there, so I did not include the batteries in my equation as I
> equate the batteries along the same lines as the gas engine that was in the
> truck. My batteries are about three years old as I bought them used when I
> built my truck. I am hoping to get another year or two out of them. I would
> love to know the normal life expectancy of a 4 cylinder gas engine because I
> believe that you must somehow include this cost in your equation if you
> include the cost of the batteries. I guess the bottom line for me is I know
> that it is cheaper to drive electric because I see the savings every week in
> the amount of money I have left out of my paycheck. I only wish that we had
> affordable high density batteries that would last 10 years and get 150 miles
> or more range in my truck then I would sell my gas vehicle and go all
> electric. 

I have to agree with David though... battery amortization must be considered part of the fuel cost, because it is a consumable item used to power the vehicle.

Having said that, a few months back I ran some comparative numbers, and tried to include any and all maintenance and consumable items in the equations.

I came up somewhere around $0.10/mi electric, and well over $0.40/mi gas once fuel/electricity, battery, oil changes, tune ups, other scheduled ICE maint like timing belts and such, tires, brakes, alignments, etc...

I apparently deleted or misplaced the spreadsheet, I've wanted to refer back to it a few times recently, but can't find it... so i apologize if my figures are "off" as I'm just going by memory.

On the day I made that spreadsheet, I had fueled my ICE truck @ $3.90-something a gallon, and ran two projections- One if fuel remained on average at $3.90/gal, and the other based on the speculation at the end of spring that gas would top $7/gal by the end of summer. On the first projection if I drove the EV instead of ICE, it would take 10 years and 2+ battery packs to finally break even on the EV purchase/conversion, and in the second projection it would take about 1.6 years.

I too am not going to do it for the "savings" or because of some hopes of "breaking even quickly", but because it's the right thing to do, it reduces my (and our) dependence on foreign oil, and I know I'll get a ****-eating EV grin on my face every time I pass a gas station and see someone fueling up their 6000+ lbs V10 SUV at $Arm.LegFirstBorn/Gallon. 

I really liked your point about gas shortages and still driving, though. 

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

July was the first month in the last 2 years of EV
ownership that we spent $0.00 on gasoline, not a single
drop!

The least expensive tires on my EV, are 1/5 the cost of
my van tires. Maintenance on my guzzler is now less than
once a year, and their tires last longer.

When the granddaughters started school we quickly realized
we needed a second car for their transportation.
Maintenance on our gas-guzzling van (10 mpg)
required renting a vehicle.

The increased reliability offered by two vehicles, one being
the EV, and the freedom from worrying about being unable to
buy gasoline (as in our 1971 and 1994 earthquakes) is worth
more than money.

Our PV solar even leaves us less dependent on the grid for
charging.

Battery cost? The first year of gasoline savings paid for
16 T105s.

John in Sylmar, CA
www.evalbum.com/1749 -that's fuel on the garage roof!



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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

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Cgo=


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

On Thu, 7 Aug 2008 13:25:32 -0400, Roger Heuckeroth <[email protected]>


> wrote:
> 
> >When I tell people that I'm converting a car to electric, the first
> >thing I'm asked is "how much are you going to save?" Again and again
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Guilty as charged. I'm going for the Lithium. I think in the long 
run though if I can get 2000 cycles out of a LiFePO4 pack it will be 
worth it. Not just because the cost of replacing lead batteries, but 
also because my electrical consumption should be less not pulling 
around another 1000 lbs of lead everywhere I go



> Neon John wrote:
> 
> > Your quip about the Prius does us a great disservice because it
> > makes people
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

I take my converted 2001 GMC Sonoma to car shows and renewable energy fairs 
and I get asked the cost justification question often. In my case, my 
conversion cost me $22K plus 180 hours of my labor to convert it. And I'm 
paying about 4.5 cents/mile at 9 cents/kWhr, or about 1/4th the price of gas 
at 20 MPG and $4/gallon. If the only comparison is between electric and gas, 
obviously, it would take a very long time to pay back the $22K at that rate.

Its really a matter of what you are comparing it to. Folks are comparing the 
cost of an EV against the cost of driving an ICE. But I like to compare my 
EV conversion to buying a new car.

When I compare this to buying a new vehicle for $30K, it looks pretty good, 
and basically almost all of the parts that wear out are ICE related and have 
been replaced, so my vehicle is nearly like new. And by my calculations, my 
fuel savings will at least pay for the replacement of my batteries when they 
wear out.

Its funny that folks don't use the same criteria they apply to our EVs ("how 
long does it take to pay-back") when purchasing their brand new ICE 
vehicles. They are really buying a means of getting to work, going to the 
grocery store, etc. They are also paying for convenience, and appearances, 
and the feeling it gives them. How long is the pay-back for those things?

Randy Richmond
www.evalbum.com/1253

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Roger Heuckeroth" <[email protected]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, August 07, 2008 10:25 AM
Subject: [EVDL] EV Cost Justification


> When I tell people that I'm converting a car to electric, the first
> thing I'm asked is "how much are you going to save?" Again and again
> I get the same questions right off the bat. How many of you get, or
> have gotten, the same response?
>
> What I tell them is: I'm not doing it to save money on gas, and it
> will cost less than buying a new Prius. I'm doing it because I want
> to, and I can. And at least I'm doing something to help relieve our
> "addiction to oil".
>
> I just got the August issue of Pollution Engineering and in it is an
> interesting article titled, "How Much is Life Worth?" This is
> slightly OT for this list, but I think list subscribers would be
> interested because it ties into the cost justification of EV issue.
>
> The article reports that the EPA uses a cost justification model in
> their decision making process of determining whether the benefit of a
> proposed rule is justified. Back in 2004 each American life used in
> their model was worth $7.8 million... today its $6.9 million. Isn't
> it nice to know that amid all the skyrocketing costs of food and fuel
> at least our lives cheaper.
>
> So, how many conversions does it take to save one life? At $20,000
> per conversion you would only have to save one life to justify 345
> conversions even at the cheaper cost of a life.
>
> _______________________________________________
> General EVDL support: http://evdl.org/help/
> Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
> Archives: http://evdl.org/archive/
> Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>
> 

_______________________________________________
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Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
Archives: http://evdl.org/archive/
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----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Roger Heuckeroth" <[email protected]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, August 07, 2008 1:25 PM
Subject: [EVDL] EV Cost Justification


> When I tell people that I'm converting a car to electric, the first
> thing I'm asked is "how much are you going to save?" Again and again
> I get the same questions right off the bat. How many of you get, or
> have gotten, the same response?
>
> What I tell them is: I'm not doing it to save money on gas, and it
> will cost less than buying a new Prius. I'm doing it because I want
> to, and I can. And at least I'm doing something to help relieve our
> "addiction to oil".
>

Hi EVerybody;

Roger's got it! The I can and I want to. This drives(Poor Pun) into 
making a statement, howEVer humble, that driving electric is HERE ,as it was 
in 1912! Folks in 16-20 cents a KWH question savings;"How much does it add 
to yur electric bill?"Oh I don't know, MAYBE 20-30 bux?"The OTHER one: How 
LONG do the batteries last?" Oh about 20k miles, and the enevitable "How 
much does a battery pack cost?" This is the biggie to alota folks, but I 
say:'" It's like buying an airline ticket. No 2 people paid the same fare on 
a plane that holds HUNDREDS of Sheeple! Pricing of batteries? Depends on who 
and where! And how gooda scrounger you are, finding used parts, Building 
your own stuff. My Rabbit first saw the light of day with a 900 dollar USED 
ADV.9" motor, a homemade controller and charger and 400 bux worth of used 
T-105's.Also alota EV" Junque" from my EFP daze and Locomotive parting out 
times.Dead locos are great parts sources! I had a used VW Bug adapter plate 
setup which could be customized to fit the Bunny.

Another biggie is the Very Important motor- to- the- tranny hookup.THIS 
hasta be right! So you can drop 1k on a "Kit" or have your friendly 
machinist make ya something?Once this is done and you drive it around a 
little with 24 volts of batteries" Look it MOVES!" From there battery racks, 
etc, is easy, and ya move along faster with it! It will GO when all the 
batteries are aboard! From here things aren't as critical, large "adjusting" 
hammer stuff!

> I just got the August issue of Pollution Engineering and in it is an
> interesting article titled, "How Much is Life Worth?" This is
> slightly OT for this list, but I think list subscribers would be
> interested because it ties into the cost justification of EV issue.
>
> The article reports that the EPA uses a cost justification model in
> their decision making process of determining whether the benefit of a
> proposed rule is justified. Back in 2004 each American life used in
> their model was worth $7.8 million... today its $6.9 million. Isn't
> it nice to know that amid all the skyrocketing costs of food and fuel
> at least our lives cheaper.

Yeah! Comforting<g>? And WHERE you live? Religion, location ,etc, 
but I could be drifting Off Topic? WHO? Me, OT? Ha Ha!

> So, how many conversions does it take to save one life? At $20,000
> per conversion you would only have to save one life to justify 345
> conversions even at the cheaper cost of a life.

Along these lines how many WARS we could cancel for lack of funding, 
too? As my bumper sticker I have in the kitchen;" IF you think fighting over 
Oil is bad wait til we go to war over Water!"Or something like that? With 
US-ian Sheeples lives value being decided by HMO drones, brings up the 
Life's value thing, again? Did ya see "Sicko" yet??

As I often say in my Show and Tell spiel" If WE don't do SOMETHING, who 
will? It dissolve into politics, way too easy! Most Sheeple HAVE scene 
WKtEC, by now.I usually say this one isn't a model, but a horrible example. 
IF I can do it why can't General Murders, Fraud, Crapsler, Iota, Hy-an' Dri 
(hondai) etc? This usually gets them, to come to an EAA meeting, to see 
more vehicles.

The Biggie is, of course, (Duh!) 4-5 bux a gal. for gas. Whole EAA 
chapters are founded on this. Remember I started when gas was 23 sence a 
gal?Back then, nobody cared! They laughed at ya! Nobodies laughing NOW!

Seeya Tomorrow?

Bob
> 

_______________________________________________
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Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
Archives: http://evdl.org/archive/
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----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Another thing to point out is that you have to buy all of your conversion parts retail. That adds a huge increase to the cost of building something. Just imagine how cheaply a manufacturer could build them by getting everything wholesale and not having to design any one-off parts to fit each particular conversion. Tell someone to go to the local Chevy dealer and price out all the individual parts to build something cheap like a Cobalt. They would spend well over $100,000, not counting the labor to put the thing together! Any of the manufacturers could mass produce nice EVs at a very reasonable cost if they chose to. 



> From: [email protected]
> To: [email protected]
> Date: Thu, 7 Aug 2008 22:50:04 -0700
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] EV Cost Justification
> 
> I take my converted 2001 GMC Sonoma to car shows and renewable energy fairs 
> and I get asked the cost justification question often. In my case, my 
> conversion cost me $22K plus 180 hours of my labor to convert it. And I'm 
> paying about 4.5 cents/mile at 9 cents/kWhr, or about 1/4th the price of gas 
> at 20 MPG and $4/gallon. If the only comparison is between electric and gas, 
> obviously, it would take a very long time to pay back the $22K at that rate.
> 
> Its really a matter of what you are comparing it to. Folks are comparing the 
> cost of an EV against the cost of driving an ICE. But I like to compare my 
> EV conversion to buying a new car.
> 
> When I compare this to buying a new vehicle for $30K, it looks pretty good, 
> and basically almost all of the parts that wear out are ICE related and have 
> been replaced, so my vehicle is nearly like new. And by my calculations, my 
> fuel savings will at least pay for the replacement of my batteries when they 
> wear out.
> 
> Its funny that folks don't use the same criteria they apply to our EVs ("how 
> long does it take to pay-back") when purchasing their brand new ICE 
> vehicles. They are really buying a means of getting to work, going to the 
> grocery store, etc. They are also paying for convenience, and appearances, 
> and the feeling it gives them. How long is the pay-back for those things?
> 
> Randy Richmond
> www.evalbum.com/1253
> 
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Roger Heuckeroth" <[email protected]>
> To: <[email protected]>
> Sent: Thursday, August 07, 2008 10:25 AM
> Subject: [EVDL] EV Cost Justification
> 
> 
> > When I tell people that I'm converting a car to electric, the first
> > thing I'm asked is "how much are you going to save?" Again and again
> > I get the same questions right off the bat. How many of you get, or
> > have gotten, the same response?
> >
> > What I tell them is: I'm not doing it to save money on gas, and it
> > will cost less than buying a new Prius. I'm doing it because I want
> > to, and I can. And at least I'm doing something to help relieve our
> > "addiction to oil".
> >
> > I just got the August issue of Pollution Engineering and in it is an
> > interesting article titled, "How Much is Life Worth?" This is
> > slightly OT for this list, but I think list subscribers would be
> > interested because it ties into the cost justification of EV issue.
> >
> > The article reports that the EPA uses a cost justification model in
> > their decision making process of determining whether the benefit of a
> > proposed rule is justified. Back in 2004 each American life used in
> > their model was worth $7.8 million... today its $6.9 million. Isn't
> > it nice to know that amid all the skyrocketing costs of food and fuel
> > at least our lives cheaper.
> >
> > So, how many conversions does it take to save one life? At $20,000
> > per conversion you would only have to save one life to justify 345
> > conversions even at the cheaper cost of a life.
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > General EVDL support: http://evdl.org/help/
> > Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
> > Archives: http://evdl.org/archive/
> > Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
> >
> > 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> General EVDL support: http://evdl.org/help/
> Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
> Archives: http://evdl.org/archive/
> Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
> 
_______________________________________________
General EVDL support: http://evdl.org/help/
Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
Archives: http://evdl.org/archive/
Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

It cost money to go places, I have not paid over $1000 for a car in 15yrs I
or my brother does all the work on any of my cars, I have not had a car
payment for about 18 yrs, I have never been broke down and had to miss work
or even be late for any thing other then a flat tire. I have all the parts
but the batts for my 87 honda when it is done I will have less then $3000 in
it. Keeping cost down is a skill.
My standard of living is higher than my coworkers because the all but a few
have car payments (no skills) I dine out when I like and do strbucks as I
please guilt free.
When the well runs dry and others are walking most of us will b hated more
than loved because we used our skills before they ever pulled there heads
out...(loud popping sounds )
I tell people in terms they understand when they ask how much something
cost, I ask them their car payment with insur.and do some rough math, I
always come in under a years worth of car payments.
I tell them they have to add their car payment and Insur. to their gas bill
and tell me how much it is costing them every month. That really makes them
cry




> Dave Davidson <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> > Another thing to point out is that you have to buy all of your conversion
> > parts retail. That adds a huge increase to the cost of building something.
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

That is exactly my point with the cheaper than a Prius comment I give 
people. The Prius is very popular in my neighborhood. Nobody ever 
asks their owners how long until payback.

At the local dealership they are going for about $30K. I'll be well 
below that even with Lithium batteries, and it will never us a drop of 
gas.



> RightHand Engineering wrote:
> 
> >
> > Its funny that folks don't use the same criteria they apply to our
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

As a retired senior I see my medical costs increasing
in spite of insurance. Our trips to the local HMO
led me to examine the IRS income tax forms, and they
allow mileage deductions of medical, and charitable
purposes, and of course business can opt for mileage
rates rather than itemization of expenses.

It seems to me that EV mileage can be claimed.
It does not affect me, as I am in a zero tax bracket.

John in Sylmar, CA
www.evalbum.com/1749

_______________________________________________
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Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
Archives: http://evdl.org/archive/
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----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Obviously when people ask the question, they mean vs the cost of an ICE car, and it is a valid question. The answer is not as simple as it seems. The implication of the question is that every dollar spent is fuel economy related, as if we must compare an electric vehicle to the cheapest available regular car. Why not compare it to a Hummer? What is the payback on a Hummer? Or a GTO, or a Ferrari, or a Motorhome. What is the payback on you big screen TV? 

You buy an EV not just for efficiency or 'greenness' you buy/build it because you want one, because to you, it is 'cool' What is the payback on 'coolness'?





---------[ Received Mail Content ]----------

Subject : Re: [EVDL] EV Cost Justification

Date : Fri, 8 Aug 2008 09:27:10 -0400

From : Dave Davidson <[email protected]>

To : <[email protected]>


Another thing to point out is that you have to buy all of your conversion parts retail. That adds a huge increase to the cost of building something. Just imagine how cheaply a manufacturer could build them by getting everything wholesale and not having to design any one-off parts to fit each particular conversion. Tell someone to go to the local Chevy dealer and price out all the individual parts to build something cheap like a Cobalt. They would spend well over $100,000, not counting the labor to put the thing together! Any of the manufacturers could mass produce nice EVs at a very reasonable cost if they chose to. 



> From: [email protected]
> To: [email protected]
> Date: Thu, 7 Aug 2008 22:50:04 -0700
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] EV Cost Justification
> 
> I take my converted 2001 GMC Sonoma to car shows and renewable energy fairs 
> and I get asked the cost justification question often. In my case, my 
> conversion cost me $22K plus 180 hours of my labor to convert it. And I'm 
> paying about 4.5 cents/mile at 9 cents/kWhr, or about 1/4th the price of gas 
> at 20 MPG and $4/gallon. If the only comparison is between electric and gas, 
> obviously, it would take a very long time to pay back the $22K at that rate.
> 
> Its really a matter of what you are comparing it to. Folks are comparing the 
> cost of an EV against the cost of driving an ICE. But I like to compare my 
> EV conversion to buying a new car.
> 
> When I compare this to buying a new vehicle for $30K, it looks pretty good, 
> and basically almost all of the parts that wear out are ICE related and have 
> been replaced, so my vehicle is nearly like new. And by my calculations, my 
> fuel savings will at least pay for the replacement of my batteries when they 
> wear out.
> 
> Its funny that folks don't use the same criteria they apply to our EVs ("how 
> long does it take to pay-back") when purchasing their brand new ICE 
> vehicles. They are really buying a means of getting to work, going to the 
> grocery store, etc. They are also paying for convenience, and appearances, 
> and the feeling it gives them. How long is the pay-back for those things?
> 
> Randy Richmond
> www.evalbum.com/1253
> 
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Roger Heuckeroth" 
> To: 
> Sent: Thursday, August 07, 2008 10:25 AM
> Subject: [EVDL] EV Cost Justification
> 
> 
> > When I tell people that I'm converting a car to electric, the first
> > thing I'm asked is "how much are you going to save?" Again and again
> > I get the same questions right off the bat. How many of you get, or
> > have gotten, the same response?
> >
> > What I tell them is: I'm not doing it to save money on gas, and it
> > will cost less than buying a new Prius. I'm doing it because I want
> > to, and I can. And at least I'm doing something to help relieve our
> > "addiction to oil".
> >
> > I just got the August issue of Pollution Engineering and in it is an
> > interesting article titled, "How Much is Life Worth?" This is
> > slightly OT for this list, but I think list subscribers would be
> > interested because it ties into the cost justification of EV issue.
> >
> > The article reports that the EPA uses a cost justification model in
> > their decision making process of determining whether the benefit of a
> > proposed rule is justified. Back in 2004 each American life used in
> > their model was worth $7.8 million... today its $6.9 million. Isn't
> > it nice to know that amid all the skyrocketing costs of food and fuel
> > at least our lives cheaper.
> >
> > So, how many conversions does it take to save one life? At $20,000
> > per conversion you would only have to save one life to justify 345
> > conversions even at the cheaper cost of a life.
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > General EVDL support: http://evdl.org/help/
> > Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
> > Archives: http://evdl.org/archive/
> > Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
> >
> > 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> General EVDL support: http://evdl.org/help/
> Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
> Archives: http://evdl.org/archive/
> Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
> 
_______________________________________________
General EVDL support: http://evdl.org/help/
Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
Archives: http://evdl.org/archive/
Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev

_______________________________________________
General EVDL support: http://evdl.org/help/
Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
Archives: http://evdl.org/archive/
Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Priceless...




> e s wrote:
> 
> > You buy an EV not just for efficiency or 'greenness' you buy/build
> > it because you want one, because to you, it is 'cool' What is the
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> e s wrote:
> 
> > Why not compare it to a Hummer? What is the
> > payback on a Hummer? Or a GTO, or a Ferrari, or a Motorhome.
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

I think you miss my point. People make all sorts of vehicle choices that have nothing to do with economy, from extra cost metallic paint or leather interiors to a hummer or a motorcycle. These are style choices, and an EV is, in addition to being a economy choice, is also a style choice. 




---------[ Received Mail Content ]----------

Subject : Re: [EVDL] EV Cost Justification

Date : Fri, 8 Aug 2008 10:23:05 -0700

From : Roger Stockton <[email protected]>

To : "'Electric Vehicle Discussion List'" <[email protected]>




> e s wrote:
> 
> > Why not compare it to a Hummer? What is the
> > payback on a Hummer? Or a GTO, or a Ferrari, or a Motorhome.
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

hi yes it is a style choice ,,thats why i bought a82 amc general usps
truck to convert ,,its different ,,,,,,, lonnie


e s
>
> I think you miss my point. People make all sorts of vehicle choices that
> have nothing to do with economy, from extra cost metallic paint or leather
> interiors to a hummer or a motorcycle. These are style choices, and an EV
> is, in addition to being a economy choice, is also a style choice.
>
>
>
>
> ---------[ Received Mail Content ]----------
>
> Subject : Re: [EVDL] EV Cost Justification
>
> Date : Fri, 8 Aug 2008 10:23:05 -0700
>
> From : Roger Stockton <[email protected]>
>
> To : "'Electric Vehicle Discussion List'" <[email protected]>
>
>


> > e s wrote:
> >
> >> Why not compare it to a Hummer? What is the
> >> payback on a Hummer? Or a GTO, or a Ferrari, or a Motorhome.
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> e s wrote:
> 
> > I think you miss my point. People make all sorts of vehicle
> > choices that have nothing to do with economy, from extra cost
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

David and All,
Although I agree that the battery cost should be equated with the
cost per mile in an EV, I am not sure how you came up with this very 
low amount of $0.07 per mile.

As I've said before, my S10 came out to be $0.04/mile for electricity, 
and $0.10/mile for the battery pack. This was over 20,000 miles, 
using 24 Trojan T-145 floodies, back when lead was cheap. Maybe you
are talking about a 96 volt car with a handful of floodies, which would 
be painfully sloooooowwwwww, and totally boring!
Suck Amps...
50,000 plus pure eelectric miles on the buggies, and a countin',
Dave (B.B.) Hawkins
Member of the Denver Electric Vehicle Council:
http://www.devc.info/
Card carrying member and former racer with The National Electric Drag Racing
Association:
http://www.nedra.com/
Lyons, Colorado
1979 Mazda RX-7 EV (192V of Orbs that raised the two teenagers)
1989 GM (General Murderers of the pure EV1) S10 (144V of floodies, for Pa only!)
2004 Toyota Prius (for Ma, and Pa if Ma is a supervising!)


>Date: Thu, 07 Aug 2008 15:52:58 -0400
>From: "EVDL Administrator" 
>


> >On 7 Aug 2008 at 14:48, [email protected] wrote:
> >
> >> It is costing me $0.03 per mile to fuel my truck with electric.
> >
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Don't forget the cost (both parts and mostly labor) that most people would
have of paying an electrician to install [to code] some optional but
realistically important equipment in to their home and perhaps at work, such
as an amp-hour meter and 220V 50A+ in the garage. This can add thousands to
the cost of owning an EV, and would extend the break amortization by quite a
few years. This is a hard sell to people looking to buy an EV, and
virtually eliminates non-home-owners (apartment, condo, etc) from being
potential EV drivers.

Pv

On Fri, Aug 8, 2008 at 3:46 PM, Dave (Battery Boy) Hawkins <


> [email protected]> wrote:
> 
> > David and All,
> > Although I agree that the battery cost should be equated with the
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Paul Peavyhouse wrote:
> > Don't forget the cost (both parts and mostly labor) that most people
> > would have of paying an electrician to install [to code] some
> > optional but realistically important equipment in to their home and
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

On 8 Aug 2008 at 0:00, Dave (Battery Boy) Hawkins wrote:

> Although I agree that the battery cost should be equated with the
> cost per mile in an EV, I am not sure how you came up with this very 
> low amount of $0.07 per mile.

Let's recompute this for current prices. Note that this is for nearly ideal 
conditions -- an EV that gets 250wH/mi, and runs a mission that always 
discharges the battery to 80%DOD on each cycle. If there's an error in my 
calculations, I'm sure the list will catch it.

24 ea. USBMC 2200 batteries, 144v system

Cost = $2400 (right? I haven't bought any for quite a while)

Cycle life = 650 @ 80% DOD

Capacity = 131ah @ 75a (18.9kWh); we use 80% (15.1kWh)

Estimated range per 80% DOD cycle @ 250 Wh/mi = 60

Lifetime miles (using 80% capacity each cycle) = 39000

Cost per mile = 2400 / 39000 = 6.1 cents per mile

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

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----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> 24 ea. USBMC 2200 batteries, 144v system
>
> Cost = $2400 (right? I haven't bought any for quite a while)
>
> Cycle life = 650 @ 80% DOD
>
> Capacity = 131ah @ 75a (18.9kWh); we use 80% (15.1kWh)
>
> Estimated range per 80% DOD cycle @ 250 Wh/mi = 60
>
> Lifetime miles (using 80% capacity each cycle) = 39000
>
> Cost per mile = 2400 / 39000 = 6.1 cents per mile

39K mi from a pack seems excessively optimistic - I doubt there are 
many using floodies getting much over 25K mi, with what to me seems a 
neurotic level of battery maintenance 9I don't need my EV to induce 
OCD).

Real-life numbers from my Ranger:

Blue Sky Motors charged ~$3600 to install a "new" pack or 39 8V East 
Penn gel cells (65Ahr at C3) about 10K mi ago [none are brand new, 
some were probably used-and-refurbished] - I still get ~50mi, so no 
loss of range yet [but it is still summer] and I would be very 
surprised if they lasted much over 20K miles. That's $0.18/mi for the 
pack over its usable lifetime.

I don't include charging, because I use the existing infrastructure of 
public charging already in place in my town - the city has a couple 
dozen RAV4EVs, but they don't use the Avcon, and only a few other EVs 
in the area bother to use an Avcon female to charge theirs (there are 
a couple I know of), plus the 1-1/4mi to get my truck is beneficial to 
my health. During the summer, I'm into the $0.22/kwh rate with A/C use 
(double my baseline), so figure $0.08/mi now, down to $0.04/mi in the 
winter.

The pack is inaccessible, so it is the ultimate in zero maintenance - 
it needs at least 3ft of lift and a wheeled battery removal tray to 
get >1600lbs of lead, case and equipment off as one piece. Replacement 
will involve re-engineering for a pack of 12V's, which can and has 
been done by other Ranger owners, but the requirement of AGMs or gels 
makes this much more than your example of GC batteries.


ICE numbers:

My ICE vehicle is a '97 RAV4, and hasn't needed more than $20/yr in 
basic maintenance for several years; it gets less use than the EV, 
spending most of its time on the highway. It averages 27mpg, a little 
less than $0.15/mi currently, and I don't intend to replace it until 
it is dead or unrepairable.

My son's Metro is a tin can that I just got running - he'll need to 
buy a vice grip to turn the stripped window registers and A/C is 
hot-wired to run from a toggle, but I think I got all the bugs out: 
blown radiator, shredded timing belt, dead cat converter, hard-to-find 
12" tires. Despite being an automatic, that little 3-cylinder gets 
over 40mpg. I tested it to over 90mph, (and the speedo runs low!), but 
it's a beater, so I just hope it will get him through college. These 
suckers are getting pretty pricey for econoboxes, so my investment so 
far of just under 2 grand isn't too bad, and I'm comfortable doing any 
repairs it might need, but it's obviously *not* a good starting point 
for a conversion!

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----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Funny, I have been thinking about this recently.
Gas had hit over 4.25 a gal around here and I also have solar on the roof.
As if pure irony, Even with driving every day, I just got a pg&e bill
for $-12.00. Thats correct, a negative power bill. they sent it.
When gas dropped to 4.05 I decided to take the gasser out to fill it,up,
kind of playing the gas stock market.
I get to choose when I buy (except it takes 4 to 6 months for me to use
a tank of gas. I went a year without buying gas but had problems with
the gasser if I don't drive it at least once a month.)
Having to get the car smogged, again, was another awaking. Could of
bought 1-2 batteries.

I use to spend enough of gas every month to buy 1-2 batteries a month.
It seems to work out fine.
(If I could just learn to save 1/4 of that each month, id be fine)

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

What! You got to be kidding me!



> Paul Peavyhouse wrote:
> 
> > Don't forget the cost (both parts and mostly labor) that most people
> > would
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Date: Sat, 9 Aug 2008 01:31:02 -0700
> From: [email protected]
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] EV Cost Justification
> 
> > 24 ea. USBMC 2200 batteries, 144v system
> >
> > Cost = $2400 (right? I haven't bought any for quite a while)
> >
> > Cycle life = 650 @ 80% DOD
> >
> > Capacity = 131ah @ 75a (18.9kWh); we use 80% (15.1kWh)
> >
> > Estimated range per 80% DOD cycle @ 250 Wh/mi = 60
> >
> > Lifetime miles (using 80% capacity each cycle) = 39000
> >
> > Cost per mile = 2400 / 39000 = 6.1 cents per mile
> 
> 39K mi from a pack seems excessively optimistic - I doubt there are 
> many using floodies getting much over 25K mi, with what to me seems a 
> neurotic level of battery maintenance 9I don't need my EV to induce 
> OCD).
> 
> Real-life numbers from my Ranger:
> 
> Blue Sky Motors charged ~$3600 to install a "new" pack or 39 8V East 
> Penn gel cells (65Ahr at C3) about 10K mi ago [none are brand new, 
> some were probably used-and-refurbished] - I still get ~50mi, so no 
> loss of range yet [but it is still summer] and I would be very 
> surprised if they lasted much over 20K miles. That's $0.18/mi for the 
> pack over its usable lifetime.

Cowtown - these don't seem like real-life numbers to me. You don't yet know how long your pack will last - especially since you have no loss of range so far. Maybe you will be very surprised and they'll last 30K or more. 

Phil Marino

> 
> I don't include charging, because I use the existing infrastructure of 
> public charging already in place in my town - the city has a couple 
> dozen RAV4EVs, but they don't use the Avcon, and only a few other EVs 
> in the area bother to use an Avcon female to charge theirs (there are 
> a couple I know of), plus the 1-1/4mi to get my truck is beneficial to 
> my health. During the summer, I'm into the $0.22/kwh rate with A/C use 
> (double my baseline), so figure $0.08/mi now, down to $0.04/mi in the 
> winter.
> 
> The pack is inaccessible, so it is the ultimate in zero maintenance - 
> it needs at least 3ft of lift and a wheeled battery removal tray to 
> get >1600lbs of lead, case and equipment off as one piece. Replacement 
> will involve re-engineering for a pack of 12V's, which can and has 
> been done by other Ranger owners, but the requirement of AGMs or gels 
> makes this much more than your example of GC batteries.
> 
> 
> ICE numbers:
> 
> My ICE vehicle is a '97 RAV4, and hasn't needed more than $20/yr in 
> basic maintenance for several years; it gets less use than the EV, 
> spending most of its time on the highway. It averages 27mpg, a little 
> less than $0.15/mi currently, and I don't intend to replace it until 
> it is dead or unrepairable.
> 
> My son's Metro is a tin can that I just got running - he'll need to 
> buy a vice grip to turn the stripped window registers and A/C is 
> hot-wired to run from a toggle, but I think I got all the bugs out: 
> blown radiator, shredded timing belt, dead cat converter, hard-to-find 
> 12" tires. Despite being an automatic, that little 3-cylinder gets 
> over 40mpg. I tested it to over 90mph, (and the speedo runs low!), but 
> it's a beater, so I just hope it will get him through college. These 
> suckers are getting pretty pricey for econoboxes, so my investment so 
> far of just under 2 grand isn't too bad, and I'm comfortable doing any 
> repairs it might need, but it's obviously *not* a good starting point 
> for a conversion!
> 
> _______________________________________________
> General EVDL support: http://evdl.org/help/
> Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
> Archives: http://evdl.org/archive/
> Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
> 

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Roger Heuckeroth" <[email protected]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Saturday, August 09, 2008 8:27 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] EV Cost Justification


> What! You got to be kidding me!
For sure, Roger! My garage was wired up for at LEAST 240 volts 50 plus 
amps in one busy afternoon!I could do YOURS, too! My breakerbox is right 
there! Have done 70 amps, through crude home made chargers, before I popped 
for Rich's PFC!IF yur handy enough to build an EV, getting the GARAGE 
prepped is kids' stuff!

Seeya

Bob
>


> Paul Peavyhouse wrote:
> >
> >> Don't forget the cost (both parts and mostly labor) that most people
> >> would
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Jeff Shanab wrote:
> > Gas had hit over 4.25 a gal around here and I also have solar on the roof.
> > As if pure irony, Even with driving every day, I just got a pg&e bill
> > for $-12.00. Thats correct, a negative power bill. they sent it.
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Cowtown - these don't seem like real-life numbers to me. You don't yet know
> how long your pack will last - especially since you have no loss of 
> range so far. Maybe you will be very surprised and they'll last 
> 30K or more. Phil Marino

The production Ranger in lead-acid form has enough users to have a 
track record. Every truck has used the same battery, a model specific 
to this truck, and all the trucks use the same 
BMS/charger/heating/cooling systems. The variables are only DOD and 
ambient temperature. When my first pack died, range dropped from 50 to 
10 mile within a few charging cycles, about 9K mi into ownership: 
others have gotten from 12K to 18K mi, but I rarely let the pack get 
to the yellow warning light, so I am being only slightly optimistic 
with my 20K miles.

If you did a poll of all EV owners, I doubt you'll find even 1% 
getting over 25K from any form of lead-acid pack.

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

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----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> "Bob Rice" <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> >
> >> What! You got to be kidding me!
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> [email protected] wrote:
> >> Cowtown - these don't seem like real-life numbers to me. You don't yet know
> >> how long your pack will last - especially since you have no loss of
> >> range so far. Maybe you will be very surprised and they'll last
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

I think my one line reaction was misinterpreted. I'll try to be clearer
next time. 

Thanks for you offer Bob, but I'm all set with my garage. I totally agree,
anyone who can convert a gas burner to electric should certainly be capable
of wiring an outlet and installing a breaker. 

What I meant by my comment, "you got to be kidding me", is that thousands
for an outlet is absurd. Even with a licensed electrician and helper doing
the job, it shouldn't cost more than a few hundred even at prevailing wage.





> What! You got to be kidding me!
For sure, Roger! My garage was wired up for at LEAST 240 volts 50 plus 
amps in one busy afternoon!I could do YOURS, too! My breakerbox is right 
there! Have done 70 amps, through crude home made chargers, before I popped 
for Rich's PFC!IF yur handy enough to build an EV, getting the GARAGE 
prepped is kids' stuff!

Seeya

Bob
>


> Paul Peavyhouse wrote:
> >
> >> Don't forget the cost (both parts and mostly labor) that most people
> >> would
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Jeff,

Based on just this one post, I would say you could be the poster-boy for the
argument of having an EV for daily use and renting an ICE for those few
occasions when one is needed. The savings of not insuring, registering and
smog checking the "second" vehicle could easily offset the occasional rental
of one.



Stay Charged!
Hump







> Jeff Shanab wrote:
> >
> > Funny, I have been thinking about this recently.
> > Gas had hit over 4.25 a gal around here and I also have solar on the roof.
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Or for building a generator trailer or pusher. 


Tim

--------
> Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2008 09:20:46 -0700 (PDT)
> From: Tim Humphrey <[email protected]>
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] EV Cost Justification
> To: [email protected]
>
> Jeff,
>
> Based on just this one post, I would say you could be the poster-boy for the
> argument of having an EV for daily use and renting an ICE for those few
> occasions when one is needed. The savings of not insuring, registering and
> smog checking the "second" vehicle could easily offset the occasional rental
> of one.
>
>
>
> Stay Charged!
> Hump

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

How do people tend to go? Generators, or pushers?

Seems to me pushers would dispense with generator/motor losses (what is 
the severity of those anyway, real world?) but would push you into 
uncharted territory as regards pushing thrust through a trailer hitch.

Robert





> Tim Clevenger wrote:
> > Or for building a generator trailer or pusher.
> >
> >
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Robert MacDowell wrote:
> 
> > How do people tend to go? Generators, or pushers?
> >
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

>> but would push you into
>> uncharted territory as regards pushing thrust through a trailer hitch.
>> 
>
> Not entirely uncharted. I know of two pusher trailer examples and 
> they both reported no stability or control problems.
>
> Mr. Sharkey:
>
> <http://www.mrsharkey.com/pusher.htm>
>
> JB Straubel:
>
> <http://www.jstraubel.com/EVpusher/EVpusher.htm>
> 
Articulated buses with rear mounted engines are essentially commercially 
produced pusher trailers with a flexible cabin over the hinge point.
Photos and descriptions: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Articulated_bus

One extra potential control challenge with an articulated vehicle is how 
it will handle in slippery conditions. I have ridden articulated buses 
here in the winter snow and ice. Sometimes during a snowfall before the 
plows have cleared the roads, the rear end of these buses slip and slide 
sideways when they try to get moving from a stop. It's similar to how 
many rear-wheel drive vehicles have additional traction problems when on 
slippery surfaces. An active traction control system would be able to 
make up for much of this weakness, however one is unlikely to find that 
feature in a purchased pusher trailer, or be able to include it in a 
home built unit. A pusher trailer is also going to be lacking the extra 
weight advantage the donor car had, or the extra battery weight the EV 
car has. (In snow, extra weight over the traction wheels often helps. 
Here, people often throw 1-3 40 pound bags of salt or sand in their 
trunks in the winter to add weight.)

Regular generator trailers also add winter challenges, as they'll change 
your vehicle's handling during a spinout or other unexpected condition. 
If the winter EV in question was a truck, I'd see if I could throw the 
genset onto the truck bed rather than pull a trailer. This would also 
make it easier to capture some of that ICE waste heat for warming the 
cabin and/or batteries.

If genset pollution vs. pusher trailer pollution is important to you, 
look at the generators intended for sale California. They're built to 
more restrictive pollution standards. I saw this while comparing 
generators some time ago, when I wanted to see how well the PriUPS 
(Prius UPS, www.priups.com) project efficiency compared to off-the-shelf 
options.

Efficiency-wise, the stated specs for the gensets I looked at calculated 
out to anywhere from 10 to 17% efficient (energy content of gasoline to 
delivered KWH), with Honda gensets tending to be higher on the scale. 
Multiply that genset efficiency by your EV efficiency to get your system 
efficiency; its likely you'll now be at or below the dedicated ICE 
version of your vehicle (extra weight and extra energy conversion steps 
taken their toll).

With the genset (on board or towed), you'll have a homemade serial 
hybrid electric vehicle
With the pusher trailer route, you'll have a homemade parallel hybrid 
electric vehicle



-hk

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Doug Weathers(dougw) wrote:
> Not entirely uncharted. I know of two pusher trailer examples and 
> they both reported no stability or control problems.

Don't forget, on the flip-side of this coin is Michael Barkley's E-pusher.

http://www.evalbum.com/1713

I've seen this one in person, and spoken with him about it. When in use, his MPG doubles to 60 mpg. 

Unfortunately it was a busy gathering last weekend, so I didn't get a chance to ask more questions, but he's a member of the local EAA chapter, so I expect I'll have more of a chance to in the future.

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Thanks, Doug. You did all the heavy lifting for me. 

I'd only add that when I'm eventually in that position, I will
try to build a unit that does both. I'm thinking a pusher based
on a small efficient FWD car (Metro or CRX or something) with
full smog gear (or a small diesel running bio) and a 5-10kW
generator head coupled to the accessory drive with a clutch
(A/C clutch, maybe?) It can be used to push the EV when
out on the open road, or just drive the generator head to
recharge while driving in the case of in-city traffic or road
conditions unsafe for pushing. (Heck, maybe even try to
work regen into it as a supplement to trailer braking.)

As a side effect, you could use it as a low-pollution
stationary generator in case your house is in an extended
outage, or you're at an EVent and others need to plug in
to recharge.

For DMV and Highway Patrol reasons, I would do my best
to camoflauge the unit as an actual trailer to avoid any
hassles.


Tim

---------
Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2008 15:31:15 -0600
From: Doug Weathers <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] EV Cost Justification
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <[email protected]>

Some of the folks who have tried towing generator trailers report poor
mileage. Two examples that come to mind are AC Propulsion and (I
believe) Joe Smalley. Plus, generators big enough to supply all the
motive power tend to be expensive. Especially if made by AC
Propulsion 

Then there's the pollution issue, if that's important to you.
Generators are not regulated to the same level as cars.

Joe theorized that the generator trailer caused a lot of drag and so
performed worse than calculations suggested. Then there's the
inefficiencies of multiple conversion steps.

This doesn't mean that a generator trailer is necessarily a bad idea.
Perhaps someone will get the details right. Certainly a less powerful
range-extension genset (unable to propel the EV on its own) is easier
to do. Several folks have successfully demonstrated these. The
pollution issue is still there, though.

A generator trailer is useful for other things besides powering your
EV down the road. A pusher trailer, not so much.

I like the pusher trailer idea myself. I would probably look into
putting an extra alternator in it to top up the batteries as I travel
down the highway, such as the one that Roland has that outputs 120VAC.

Generator trailer: fossil fuel -> rotating shaft -> generator ->
charger -> batteries -> controller -> motor -> rotating shaft -> wheels.
Pusher trailer: fossil fuel -> rotating shaft -> wheels.

Granted, pusher trailers are a lot more work since you can't just buy
them. You need to cut off one end of a regular car, set up a throttle
control system, etc. Should be cheaper, especially if you start with
a FWD car that's been totaled by a rear-end collision. Plus you get
to keep the anti-smog gear if you want.

> but would push you into
> uncharted territory as regards pushing thrust through a trailer hitch.

Not entirely uncharted. I know of two pusher trailer examples and
they both reported no stability or control problems.

Mr. Sharkey:

<http://www.mrsharkey.com/pusher.htm>

JB Straubel:

<http://www.jstraubel.com/EVpusher/EVpusher.htm>

--
Doug Weathers
Las Cruces, NM, USA
<http://www.gdunge.com/>

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

On 11 Aug 2008 at 15:31, Doug Weathers wrote:

>


> Robert MacDowell wrote:
> >
> > > How do people tend to go? Generators, or pushers?
> 
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Justin Scott wrote:
> > Doug Weathers(dougw) wrote:
> >
> >> Not entirely uncharted. I know of two pusher trailer examples and
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Justin Scott wrote:
> 
> > Doug Weathers(dougw) wrote:
> >> Not entirely uncharted. I know of two pusher trailer examples and
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> David Roden wrote:
> 
> > On 11 Aug 2008 at 15:31, Doug Weathers wrote:
> >
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Lee and All,
I'm actually paying around 8 cents/KWH, but again, this is over
20,000 miles, so it includes equalizing the floddies and 
running the ceramic heater! And yes, I did pay around $83/floody,
but this was many, many years ago. The pack needed to be replaced a long
time ago, but with the price of lead, I'm only using it around the farm
and up to town...

Also, I received an off list e-mail implying that my S10 is an inefficient
pig, which I know, but it was converted in order to clean up our property
and haul my kids and there BMX bikes out to the track. As I've mentioned
before, I live in a small town, so to get to the neighboring towns, I need
a lot of lead, and with the speed limit being 55mph and above, I need a stiff pack...

Finally, as I've mentioned before, I've pulled trailers with my eelectric S10.
This includes everything from a 4x8 utility trailer, up to an 18 foot car hauler. 
Yes, it costs twice as much to run it on eelectricty, compared to the RX-7, but
it had a purpose. I've always said that just like gas vehicles, you can have more
than one EV to fill different needs... 
Suck Amps,
BB

>Date: Fri, 08 Aug 2008 23:51:29 -0500
>From: Lee Hart 
>
<snipage>
>
>>> As I've said before, my S10 came out to be $0.04/mile for
>>> electricity, and $0.10/mile for the battery pack. This was over
>>> 20,000 miles, using 24 Trojan T-145 floodies, back when lead was
>>> cheap. Maybe you are talking about a 96 volt car with a handful of
>>> floodies, which would be painfully sloooooowwwwww, and totally
>>> boring!
>
>It's going to depend on what you pay for electricity and batteries. 
>Assuming your EV goes 3 miles per KWH (a figure easily met by an S10 
>pickup truck, 4 cents/mile implies you're paying 12 cents/KWH. My rate 
>happens to be 6.5 cents/KWH (about half that; or 2 cents/mile).
>
>The Trojan floodeds should last 20,000 miles with care. If you paid 10 
>cents/mile for batteries, that implies you paid $0.10 x 20,000 miles = 
>$2000 for those 24 batteries, which is $83 each. That actually sounds 
>low; I think the current price for a T-145 is more like $125.
>
>The best I've done (cost wise) has been with twelve Sam's Club 6v 
>batteries in my Comuta Van. They cost 12 x $40 = $480, and lasted 7 
>years and about 12,000 miles ($0.04/mile). Of course, these batteries 
>are $69 today.

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Copper is expensive, and my garage is 90+ feet from my main breaker box.

- 90 feet of 3 strands of THHN 4 AWG copper + 90 feet 6 gauge ground
>$300
- General duty safety switch w/ 100A fuse $75
- 50 feet conduit >$50
- Itron digital watthour meter >$150
- 70A breaker in main breaker box $30
- 2nd breaker panel $30
- 50A GFCI breaker $70
- NEMA 14-50 outlet $10

It all adds up: >$715 Now, to pay a contractor to do buy, mark up, and
install the above, plus potential permitting and inspection fees, could
easily cost $2000 or more.

This is what I would consider a fairly basic install for an indoor outlet.
You could possibly save a few dollars here and there, but some people may
also want an outdoor outlet, adding another $100+ in parts and possibly
$500+ in labor.

Pv

On Sun, Aug 10, 2008 at 5:12 AM, [email protected] <
[email protected]> wrote:

> I think my one line reaction was misinterpreted. I'll try to be clearer
> next time.
>
> Thanks for you offer Bob, but I'm all set with my garage. I totally agree,
> anyone who can convert a gas burner to electric should certainly be capable
> of wiring an outlet and installing a breaker.
>
> What I meant by my comment, "you got to be kidding me", is that thousands
> for an outlet is absurd. Even with a licensed electrician and helper doing
> the job, it shouldn't cost more than a few hundred even at prevailing wage.
>
>
>
>
>
> > What! You got to be kidding me!
> For sure, Roger! My garage was wired up for at LEAST 240 volts 50 plus
> amps in one busy afternoon!I could do YOURS, too! My breakerbox is right
> there! Have done 70 amps, through crude home made chargers, before I popped
> for Rich's PFC!IF yur handy enough to build an EV, getting the GARAGE
> prepped is kids' stuff!
>
> Seeya
>
> Bob
> >


> Paul Peavyhouse wrote:
> > >
> > >> Don't forget the cost (both parts and mostly labor) that most people
> > >> would
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Paul is probably kind of right.... we have electricians replace old service
entrances on houses fairly frequently, and it's usually between $1500 for a
really cheap easy one, to almost $3,000 for a underground service with lots
of circuits. It adds up. For adding a 60 amp 240 volt outlet 90 feet
away... could be at least $1200 installed, possibly more like $2k like you
said...

A few suggestions for making it cheaper are inserted below



> Paul Peavyhouse <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> > Copper is expensive, and my garage is 90+ feet from my main breaker box.
> >
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

I realize 480V 3-phase is a bit hard to come by in residential context, 
but having worked with it somewhat on forklift chargers, I am very 
impressed with how easy it is to wire. It just uses ordinary household 
sized wires, 12 gauge or so. Three plus ground, kinda like a 220+110 
appliance but with lighter wires.

I wonder what it takes to get it at a residence. Is it available up on 
the pole somewhere?

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Depends on whether you have a three phase line running through the
neighborhood, or only a single phase spur. If you do have three phase, you
could get three stepdown transformers to get three phase.

480 volt hardware (switches, circuit breakers, etc) tend to be really
expensive compared to 120/240 volt rated equipment...

Z



> Robert MacDowell <[email protected]>wrote:
> 
> > I realize 480V 3-phase is a bit hard to come by in residential context,
> > but having worked with it somewhat on forklift chargers, I am very
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Slight tangent regarding your outdoor electrical connections discussed
below:

I have a 240 plug that the previous owner had installed for his welder and I
was planning on using that outlet and I was planning on tapping into it for
a 240 charger if it is possible so I could still have the car sitting in the
driveway and charge it via a chord to the driveway. The outlet is at the
front of the garage so it would have to go all the way through to reach the
driveway. Right now the garage is a mess (a place to keep your stuff), and
even if I get it cleaned out I know there are times when I will want to
charge it without pulling it into the garage, anyway. Should I still
consider putting an outlet outside near the garage door as well? 

I am still taking my donor apart so this is a long way off but still worth
considering. I have read on this list that people are waiting for parts so
I might have some time to clean out the garage and install extra outlets.
You never know.....


Sincerely,
Douglas A. Stansfield, CRFA

[email protected]
Fax: 973-440-1619
Cell: 973-670-9208

Licenses NJ (1046359), NY (LB-1010062)

Securities offered through:
Fortune Financial Services, Inc.
1010 Third Avenue
New Brighton, PA 15066 
724-846-2488
Member FINRA
-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf
Of Zeke Yewdall
Sent: Tuesday, August 12, 2008 2:58 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] EV Cost Justification

Paul is probably kind of right.... we have electricians replace old service
entrances on houses fairly frequently, and it's usually between $1500 for a
really cheap easy one, to almost $3,000 for a underground service with lots
of circuits. It adds up. For adding a 60 amp 240 volt outlet 90 feet
away... could be at least $1200 installed, possibly more like $2k like you
said...

A few suggestions for making it cheaper are inserted below



> Paul Peavyhouse <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> > Copper is expensive, and my garage is 90+ feet from my main breaker box.
> >
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Just go to your local Lowes or Home Depot and buy a suitable length of 
SO Type cord, and appropriate male and female receptacles. If you put 
an outlet outside it would need to be the type that is designed for 
"in use" applications. They are expensive, so you might be better 
off just running the cord out the garage door.



> Douglas A. Stansfield wrote:
> 
> > Slight tangent regarding your outdoor electrical connections discussed
> > below:
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Utilities don't like to do this for residences, even if three phase is 
on the pole. If they agree to do it it will cost an arm and a leg.




> Robert MacDowell wrote:
> 
> > I wonder what it takes to get it at a residence. Is it available up
> > on
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

That's what I figured but I thought I better check with the experts here. I
just got the trans off the engine so all is well here. I can now measure
for my adapter plate. Yeah!!!!



Sincerely,
Douglas A. Stansfield, CRFA

[email protected]
Fax: 973-440-1619
Cell: 973-670-9208

Licenses NJ (1046359), NY (LB-1010062)

Securities offered through:
Fortune Financial Services, Inc.
1010 Third Avenue
New Brighton, PA 15066 
724-846-2488
Member FINRA


-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf
Of Roger Heuckeroth
Sent: Tuesday, August 12, 2008 9:50 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] EV Cost Justification

Just go to your local Lowes or Home Depot and buy a suitable length of 
SO Type cord, and appropriate male and female receptacles. If you put 
an outlet outside it would need to be the type that is designed for 
"in use" applications. They are expensive, so you might be better 
off just running the cord out the garage door.



> Douglas A. Stansfield wrote:
> 
> > Slight tangent regarding your outdoor electrical connections discussed
> > below:
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Industrial shops needng 3 phase sometimes run a 220v single phase motor coupled to a 3 phase generator. A bit of losses, but if you really need it, it gets you there.



Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T

-----Original Message-----
From: Roger Heuckeroth <[email protected]>

Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2008 21:52:26 
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List<[email protected]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] EV Cost Justification


Utilities don't like to do this for residences, even if three phase is
on the pole. If they agree to do it it will cost an arm and a leg.




> Robert MacDowell wrote:
> 
> > I wonder what it takes to get it at a residence. Is it available up
> > on
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Paul Peavyhouse wrote:
> 
> > This is what I would consider a fairly basic install for an
> > indoor outlet.
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Another option would be a 3-phase transformer,
Though if the intention was to increase load capacity on the line, that
wouldn't help.

Matt 

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf
Of Craig Egan
Sent: Wednesday, 13 August 2008 10:05 AM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] EV Cost Justification

Industrial shops needng 3 phase sometimes run a 220v single phase motor
coupled to a 3 phase generator. A bit of losses, but if you really need it,
it gets you there.



Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T

-----Original Message-----
From: Roger Heuckeroth <[email protected]>

Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2008 21:52:26
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List<[email protected]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] EV Cost Justification


Utilities don't like to do this for residences, even if three phase is
on the pole. If they agree to do it it will cost an arm and a leg.




> Robert MacDowell wrote:
> 
> > I wonder what it takes to get it at a residence. Is it available up
> > on
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Or, you can run a three phase motor from single phase, and it will generate
the other two phases as a generator. It won't be self starting, but once
you start it, you have three phase power... this is used to get three phase
for some shops that only have single phase.

But..... this is getting wildly off topic -- I agree with Roger, that the
original assumption that you need a 50A 240vac metered outlet for an EV is
not really valid.... I kind of want one for mine, at least metered, but
that's just because I'm a nerd. The average person doesn't even keep a gas
and maintenance log for their ICE either, so probably won't be bothered if
they don't log the kWh it takes to charge the EV... and a simple 20A 120vac
outlet is capable of recharging a good sized battery bank (15kWhish)
overnight while the car sits in the garage.



> matt <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> > Another option would be a 3-phase transformer,
> > Though if the intention was to increase load capacity on the line, that
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

<snip>
> What strikes me as worthy of a "you've gotta be kidding" in this thread is the assumption by the original poster that ~most~ people will/need to install a 240V 50A+ outlet with dedicated metering in order to be able to use an EV.
>
> The reality is that the vast majority of EVers charge quite happily from a common 120V 15A or 20A outlet.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Roger.
>
> 
I have to agree. I started to install a plug to charge faster but never
finished as The 15A 120 does good enough. I either sleep longer or work
longer than it takes to recharge.

it takes about 2.4kwh(emeter) to drive to work. They let me charge there
(understatement, they put in a plug and designated me a space.)
120V @ 10A means just over 2.5 hours is sufficient.

Now if i had a 100mile commute and a pack to support it, I could see a
need for a bigger pipe.

250wh/mile * 100mile = 25kwh charging at 120V and 15A = 14hours. 


But this is not my problem.
The problem I have is the charger de-rates when it gets warm. I can't
pull even 5A @120V when the outside temperature is over 95.

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

I believe the Chevy Volt also will come standard with a 120 V plug. 
It is supposed to have a 16 kWhr battery pack , but they will use only 
12 kWhr before the generator kicks on. Say you travelled 40 miles and 
parked it right before the generator was to kick on. at 120 V and say 
15 A you should be fully charged and equalized within 8 hours. Also, 
a slow charge is better for Lithium batteries. Can the same be said 
about lead?



> Jeff Shanab wrote:
> 
> > <snip>
> >> What strikes me as worthy of a "you've gotta be kidding" in this
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Actually, I have helped several individuals do this with just a 1-phase 
motor direct-coupled to a smaller 3-phase motor. The 3-phase motor then 
generates the 3rd leg to run another 3-phase motor on a machine, say a lathe 
or mill that has a 3-phase motor that can't be changed to single phase for 
some reason.

Joseph H. Strubhar

Web: www.gremcoinc.com

E-mail: [email protected]
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Craig Egan" <[email protected]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, August 12, 2008 7:05 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] EV Cost Justification


> Industrial shops needng 3 phase sometimes run a 220v single phase motor 
> coupled to a 3 phase generator. A bit of losses, but if you really need 
> it, it gets you there.
>
>
>
> Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Roger Heuckeroth <[email protected]>
>
> Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2008 21:52:26
> To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List<[email protected]>
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] EV Cost Justification
>
>
> Utilities don't like to do this for residences, even if three phase is
> on the pole. If they agree to do it it will cost an arm and a leg.
>
>
>


> Robert MacDowell wrote:
> >
> >> I wonder what it takes to get it at a residence. Is it available up
> >> on
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

I used to have a 3 phase lathe and a 3 phase mill. I used an SCR based
device that would start either one of them. Once started a 3 phase motor
will run on single phase, a little less horse power but was ok. If I needed
instant reversing on the mill I would just leave the lathe running as it
would create the third phase right from the motor itself and thus feed the
third phase to the mill motor. Worked great.

Mark Grasser
Eliot, ME


-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf
Of joe
Sent: Wednesday, August 13, 2008 10:43 AM
To: [email protected]; Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] EV Cost Justification

Actually, I have helped several individuals do this with just a 1-phase 
motor direct-coupled to a smaller 3-phase motor. The 3-phase motor then 
generates the 3rd leg to run another 3-phase motor on a machine, say a lathe

or mill that has a 3-phase motor that can't be changed to single phase for 
some reason.

Joseph H. Strubhar

Web: www.gremcoinc.com

E-mail: [email protected]
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Craig Egan" <[email protected]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, August 12, 2008 7:05 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] EV Cost Justification


> Industrial shops needng 3 phase sometimes run a 220v single phase motor 
> coupled to a 3 phase generator. A bit of losses, but if you really need 
> it, it gets you there.
>
>
>
> Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Roger Heuckeroth <[email protected]>
>
> Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2008 21:52:26
> To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List<[email protected]>
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] EV Cost Justification
>
>
> Utilities don't like to do this for residences, even if three phase is
> on the pole. If they agree to do it it will cost an arm and a leg.
>
>
>


> Robert MacDowell wrote:
> >
> >> I wonder what it takes to get it at a residence. Is it available up
> >> on
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> On 12 Aug 2008 at 21:50, Roger Heuckeroth wrote:
> 
> > you might be better off just running the cord out the garage door.
> 
> ...


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