# [EVDL] Which vehicles would make a difference?



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

This entirely depends on who you're trying to sell it to. I would want a 
2 door sedan, my wife wants a minivan. Neither of us would consider 
buying a car newer than 4-5 years anyway.

-- 
-Jon Glauser
http://www.evalbum.com/555





> Ryan Stotts wrote:
> > Let's say for example I had some money and I was going to convert a
> > small fleet or cross section of `08 ( `09 where available) model
> > vehicles to electric. The goal and purpose being to make these
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Jon Glauser wrote:
> 
> > This entirely depends on who you're trying to sell it to.
> 
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

I suppose the easy answer is whatever is popular as an ICE. However, I would guess your target audience is more interested in mileage, environment, and to some degree being on the cutting edge. Certainly the very popular Prius is not very stylish, sporty, luxurious, or large, so I'd look at vehicles that are already seen as efficient. The added bonus being that an efficient ICE should make an efficient EV.



> Ryan Stotts <[email protected]> wrote: Jon Glauser wrote:
> 
> > This entirely depends on who you're trying to sell it to.
> 
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Saturn :Sky Pontiac: Solstice
Chevy: Vette
The 2 seats are already wow car



> Ryan Stotts <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> > Let's say for example I had some money and I was going to convert a
> > small fleet or cross section of `08 ( `09 where available) model
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

True I just bought a 87 Civi si to make electric, mostly because the 300zx
project needs so many more hours of work, I can do the Civic quick and have
an EV on the road while redoing the 300zx
When the 300zx is done I will most likely sell the Honda as a running EV,
that maybe how I afford grade A motor and controller and Battery pack, from
the sale of the Honda.



> Jon Glauser <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> > This entirely depends on who you're trying to sell it to. I would want a
> > 2 door sedan, my wife wants a minivan. Neither of us would consider
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

reread the question, If you had some money........ what car would you wish
was a long range high performing electric car?
I would want to wish that it be a sexy looking fun to drive.
not a Geo Metro



> John X <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> > I suppose the easy answer is whatever is popular as an ICE. However, I
> > would guess your target audience is more interested in mileage, environment,
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Randy Eckert <[email protected]> wrote: reread the question, If you had some money........ what car would you wish
> was a long range high performing electric car?
> I would want to wish that it be a sexy looking fun to drive.
> not a Geo Metro
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

I was looking at the words "wow factor' "Higher performace" Most
noticed""Impact"
I don't see any thing about save the planet appeal to greeny's
If any gas car was also offered as electric Like it was just an option
change, with out the performance loss
What one do you think would sell the most?
Would a tree hugger turn down an electric vette or electric Bug
If any new car could be bought electric, what would you get?
I can't chose as I have never been able to get myself to buy a new car, it
is a bad investment. A great way to throw money away.
so when I looked at finding a donor car I researched RX-7 and 300zx and
other sports cars.
If I am going to spend money on a project like this it needs to look cool.
I am a classic Chevy fan at heart, My first car was a 64 Impala Super Sport.
But, I don't need an EV to go any faster than 50MPH so looking fast is good
while driving slow..hehe.
Sorry if this got off topic



> John X <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> >
> >
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Here is a vehicle that has a wow, wow, wow factor with eye popping, neck 
jerking that is very light and fast. I had one of these units body No. 53, 
which was use for road racing back in the 70's. I had one in storage up to 
2005 and sold it to my body shop customizer who done the painting on my EV.

See at: http://www.davewolin.com/manta.htm

I hope you do not go into a coma when you see this one.

Roland



----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Randy Eckert" <[email protected]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, April 25, 2008 9:07 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Which vehicles would make a difference?


> I was looking at the words "wow factor' "Higher performace" Most
> noticed""Impact"
> I don't see any thing about save the planet appeal to greeny's
> If any gas car was also offered as electric Like it was just an option
> change, with out the performance loss
> What one do you think would sell the most?
> Would a tree hugger turn down an electric vette or electric Bug
> If any new car could be bought electric, what would you get?
> I can't chose as I have never been able to get myself to buy a new car, it
> is a bad investment. A great way to throw money away.
> so when I looked at finding a donor car I researched RX-7 and 300zx and
> other sports cars.
> If I am going to spend money on a project like this it needs to look cool.
> I am a classic Chevy fan at heart, My first car was a 64 Impala Super 
> Sport.
> But, I don't need an EV to go any faster than 50MPH so looking fast is 
> good
> while driving slow..hehe.
> Sorry if this got off topic
>
>


> John X <[email protected]> wrote:
> >
> > >
> > >
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Sweet!



> Roland Wiench <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> > Here is a vehicle that has a wow, wow, wow factor with eye popping, neck
> > jerking that is very light and fast. I had one of these units body No. 53,
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> John X wrote:
> 
> > I suppose the easy answer is whatever is popular as an ICE.
> 
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

I see people who are buying up Camry Hybrids and Prius's as a good target. They are looking for a quality build but are willing to pay extra for mileage and the "green" factor. The Camry Hybrid is 6 grand more than the midrange Camry LE 4 cyl. and people are buying them, even though they aren't plugins. More people buy Civics and Camrys than sexy sports cars, no matter how they are powered. That being said, there is something to targeting the Tesla crowd who can't actually afford a Tesla. Something like this:
http://www.worldclassexotics.com/Electriccarconv.htm
The question is in a weakening economy what is likely to sell better, electric econoboxes or performance vehicles?




> Ryan Stotts <[email protected]> wrote: John X wrote:
> 
> > I suppose the easy answer is whatever is popular as an ICE.
> 
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

reGoogle is your friend. Spending a few moments.
The sedan is the most popular body style.
The top sellers in 2007 depends on region also

Germany 2007

1 VW Golf/Jetta
2 VW Passat
3 BMW 3-Series
4 Audi A4
5 Opel Astra (Gm
6. Opel Corsa (GM
7. Mercedes C-Class
8. VW Polo
9. VW Touran
10 Audi A3


United states 2007
1 Ford F-Series Pickup
2 Chevrolet Silverado PU
3 Toyota Camery/Hybrid
4 Honda Accord/Hybrid
5 Toyota Corolla/Matrix
6 Honda Civic/Hybrid
7 Chevrolet Impala
8 Nissan Altima
9 Dodge Ram PU
10 Honda CRV

Pickups are easy to convert, but the ones listed are big and heavy and
inefficient, probably make bad conversions.
I think the short list of Honda and Toyota's covering sedans and a mini
SUV are your best choices. But more important is probably going to be
the ability to get them as gliders and the cost.



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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

I guess if we see the EV's foot in the door as a second car, Something
with wow factor may be the ticket for car buffs.

How about "clean classics"
60-70's era camero, firebird, mustang

I still think the niche is the second car(that weasles it's way into the
primary role), but I think it is more the urban commuter,
high-schooler's first car. College student's runabout.
The key to this is getting the price point correct. The above niche is
usually used car territory, for lower cost.

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Often, I have days when I put on 70-80 miles a day. This is work related
mileage, so I cannot see the EV replacing my ICE just yet.

So definitely, the EV will be a 2nd car for me, and between myself and my
wife, we will decide who drives the EV that day, depending on our travel
needs from day to day. We also have a vacation place 6 hrs from the city
that we will not be able to reach with an EV. SO unless we go hybrid, it's
still going to be the ICE. I suspect I am typical for my demographic.

Werner





> Jeff Shanab <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> > I guess if we see the EV's foot in the door as a second car, Something
> > with wow factor may be the ticket for car buffs.
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

I think some of the Hondas, Toyotas, and Nissans would make fine 
looking EV's and pretty practical ones too boot. However they do tend 
to be on the heavier side of things. I like sporty cars and I came 
across a nice compromise for an EV that would be nice for some of the 
crowd an may give incentive to plow down that road. Here is a site I 
put together from the original and gave a link to the original site. I 
have spoken with the gentleman who built this but he no longer owns 
it. It was sold years ago. I was wanting information on the adaptor 
plate he had made for that Kostov Motor he put into the vehicle. With 
standard Series Motors and components I am sure a person could do an 
EV under $60,000 and have a very nice looking and practical daily 
driver for going to work and back.

Pete : )


http://inertext.homeunix.com/spyder550






> John X wrote:
> 
> > I see people who are buying up Camry Hybrids and Prius's as a good
> > target. They are looking for a quality build but are willing to pay
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Part of what makes a difference is the semantics of "difference". A few 
years ago I planned to do a conversion, bought a Toyota Echo and was 
researching motors and controllers, etc. I still haven't done the 
conversion. There are a number of reasons, but one of them is that the Echo 
gets 25/35 city/highway mileage.

Ok, I know that an Echo EV would still be better considering well-to-wheels. 
But the advantage is much less than if I convert my other vechicle - a Honda 
Odessey. That gets (realistically) about 12/25 mpg. In my case 99% of 
trips are in city. So, assuming I don't need the Odessey for long range 
driving, I can make a much larger "difference" by converting that. Much, 
much bigger!

Peri

----- Original Message ----- 
From: <[email protected]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: 26 April, 2008 8:31 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Which vehicles would make a difference?


>I think some of the Hondas, Toyotas, and Nissans would make fine
> looking EV's and pretty practical ones too boot. However they do tend
> to be on the heavier side of things. I like sporty cars and I came
> across a nice compromise for an EV that would be nice for some of the
> crowd an may give incentive to plow down that road. Here is a site I
> put together from the original and gave a link to the original site. I
> have spoken with the gentleman who built this but he no longer owns
> it. It was sold years ago. I was wanting information on the adaptor
> plate he had made for that Kostov Motor he put into the vehicle. With
> standard Series Motors and components I am sure a person could do an
> EV under $60,000 and have a very nice looking and practical daily
> driver for going to work and back.
>
> Pete : )
>
>
> http://inertext.homeunix.com/spyder550
>
>
>
>
>


> John X wrote:
> >
> >> I see people who are buying up Camry Hybrids and Prius's as a good
> >> target. They are looking for a quality build but are willing to pay
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Ryan Stotts wrote:
> > Sure; Civics, Camrys, and Accords are popular. But I don't think a
> > performance electric (let alone non-performance versions) are going
> > to capture the attention of and woo and wow this crowd of people.
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

When Lynda put the calendar up in the kitchen in 2005 I "That's what I want
my Electric Vehicle to look like". February is a (yes I kept the calendar)
2002 Lamborghini Murcielago. You may laugh but all it would take is a tube
frame chassis, full aluminum belly pan and a body off my oversize CNC that I
will build some day.  Well and a few extras but this car has an awesome
look about it.

http://www.motordesktop.com/wallpaper/supercars/Lamborghini%20Murcielago%202
%20-%201024x768.jpg

Mark Grasser



-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf
Of Lee Hart
Sent: Saturday, April 26, 2008 12:30 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Which vehicles would make a difference?



> Ryan Stotts wrote:
> > Sure; Civics, Camrys, and Accords are popular. But I don't think a
> > performance electric (let alone non-performance versions) are going
> > to capture the attention of and woo and wow this crowd of people.
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

RE: Pickups, clean classics.


I suppose I wasn't totally clear in my original post. The concept was
to convert current, existing production models to be shown as and seen
as proofs of concept. To bring electric versions of existing cars
into reality to physically show them off. To let it be seen that
"yes, these same vehicles you love and drive every day could be had in
electric form just like this one".

The key to this being, to find vehicles that the current market of
owners and drivers would want and desire and solicit the manufacturer
to offer these same cars, "just like the one they saw in the magazines
or on TV".

Maybe a Camry that was extremely fast while being subtle and stock
appearing would have some appeal? A123 or Altairnano, Biggest Z2K,
WarP 13" or something faster. Put the batteries in the tunnel, and in
place of the stock fuel tank and muffler location. Potentially even
some under the hood if need be.

Just a clean all stock, full interior and full function Camry with
some impressive performance. Electric heat, working AC, power
steering. If it had it stock, it's still got it.

Get a small fleet of vehicles in full electric trim: Camry, Accord,
Civic - need some more. How fast is it? How far can it go? All
these have to be impressive numbers.

Think about our price for a motor and the forklift industries price
for a motor in their volumes. Hand built Zilla's?

Sure, our price is more then an auto manufacturers, but I just find it
hard to believe they couldn't offer electric versions at the same cost
or less then the gasoline version.

This could all be on the near horizion. $4 fuel weeks away, 5, 6, 7,
8? Mitsubishi iMiEV, Subaru g4e and R1e, Nissan Mixim.

http://gm-volt.com/2008/04/26/gm-considering-a-pure-electric-chevy-volt-without-a-range-extender/

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Last year I was planning on getting a new car to make conversion kits. 
I looked at the Yaris, Scion Xa and settled on the Honda Fit. I even 
went as far as ordering one and putting a deposit down. Then I changed 
my plan but ironically, I ended up coming across a used Fit a few months 
ago and I desperately needed a new work "truck" to haul stuff. The car 
meets 99% of my needs with a roof rack and tow hitch, it's cheap, 
amazing fuel economy, very roomy and fun to drive. I heard it was 
recently rated as the #1 car under $25K which is pretty impressive since 
it's only about$15K. I believe it has electric steering and throttle 
and good empty/gross weight ratio. I heard they are popular in 
autocross, and dress up nice with aftermarket parts. I think it would 
make a great EV.

-- 
Gary Krysztopik
www.ZWheelz.com
San Antonio, TX




> Ryan Stotts wrote:
> > Let's say for example I had some money and I was going to convert a
> > small fleet or cross section of `08 ( `09 where available) model
> > vehicles to electric. The goal and purpose being to make these
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

One clue to answering this question lies in the success of the Prius 
compared to the Honda Civic Hybrid. They are both really ICEs with electric 
supercharging. Both get about equivalent FE for the typical driver. Both 
are reasonably comfortable, almost-midsize vehicles. Major features are 
generally similar.

So why does the Prius sell far more copies? I think it's because of its 
unique appearance. The only thing that distinguishes a C ivic Hybrid from 
an ordinary one is the badge on the trunk. But no non-"hybrid" car looks 
like a Prius. It is unique. 

While it may not be true for many here who own them, I think that part of 
the Prius's appeal is that it instantly identifies the driver as socially 
and environmentally conscious. Years ago, one of the magazine reviews of 
the Comuta-Car had a name for this - "conspicuous conservation" (playing on 
the then-current term "conspicuous consumption").

Many people on this list say that "greenness won't sell," and insist that 
performance will. Well, perhaps EV performance will sell too, but the Prius 
proves that "greenness" WILL and DOES sell. 

So, I think that to be successful, a commercial EV must not look like any 
ICEV on the market. It has to be functionally similar enough to ICEVs that 
drivers feel comfortable getting into it and operating it without much 
introduction. It has to be demonstrably trouble-free and it has to deliver 
a reasonable daily range and autonomy - probably 100 to 150 miles, or one-
quarter to one-half the distance one can usually drive on a tankful of 
gasoline.

But to really succeed I think your EV has to look and feel significantly 
different from every ICEV on the road. It must look unmistakably ELECTRIC, 
and instantly identify the driver as a discriminating, progressive, socially 
conscious person.

BTW, has anyone else noticed that the Prius's tailpipe is invisible from the 
rear? It's hidden behind the bumper. Compare that with the VERY visible, 
laughably outsized tailpipes on vehicles from the Toyota Matrix to the 
typical pickup truck. Toyota may have traded on "you never need to plug it 
in," but they aren't discouraging anyone from identifying the Prius as sort-
of electric, even though it isn't. They know perfect well that "electric" 
carries a "green" cachet.

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

The Honda can't run in electric mode only. That is the big difference 
besides the look. I'd rather have a Honda with a hybrid drive that can 
be driven in fuel, electric or both. I'd convert it plugin and convert 
it to run ethanol. Here the starting problems would not be much 
trouble to deal with. In other areas it may be a problem but then you 
could convert it to NG or Propane power.

Pete : )


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

One thing you have to look at, is how much room do you have to install your 
components plus all the comfort items you want.

The Manta Mirage I had would not do it for me. Could not drive it in the 
snow, in the rain, when its dusty, on rough pave rock streets, no heater, no 
A/C. Only thing it would be good for is a demo race car.

So the one I choose at the time is a vehicle that had a motor bay length of 
71 inches by 60 inches at the rear fire wall and front nose section.

The rear deck length is 80 inches long by 58 inches wide by 30 inch high 
space behind the passenger rear window to the tail gate that is 20 inches 
high.

The passenger compartment is 56 inches depth by 60 inches wide with a flat 
dash area of 12 inches high by 58 inches long.

There is enough room, so when you layout the components and equipment, you 
do not have to stack items on top of each other. You want to be able to 
remove or replace any one item without removing another item to get to it.

If you look at my motor bay, you cannot see the motor, but I can remove the 
motor and transmission and replace it with a back up unit in with a hour 
after the vehicle is lifted up.

Always tried to make everything maintenance ease. Take a look at the number 
of hours it takes in a shop manual, that it takes to replace a heater core 
in some vehicles. There is one vehicle listed at over 8 hours.

Roland




----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Mark Grasser" <[email protected]>
To: "'Electric Vehicle Discussion List'" <[email protected]>
Sent: Saturday, April 26, 2008 10:50 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Which vehicles would make a difference?


> When Lynda put the calendar up in the kitchen in 2005 I "That's what I 
> want
> my Electric Vehicle to look like". February is a (yes I kept the calendar)
> 2002 Lamborghini Murcielago. You may laugh but all it would take is a tube
> frame chassis, full aluminum belly pan and a body off my oversize CNC that 
> I
> will build some day.  Well and a few extras but this car has an awesome
> look about it.
>
> http://www.motordesktop.com/wallpaper/supercars/Lamborghini%20Murcielago%202
> %20-%201024x768.jpg
>
> Mark Grasser
> 

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Too bad the insight is not still available, but I suppose you could try
this with a hybrid accord.

Rip out the ICE and get 3 more IMA systems to replace the removed gas
cylinders. Stack-em up. Now you have a quad rotor electric vehicle.

Rework 2 packs with Lithium-ion and you'd have a pretty sweet conversion.


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Mark Grasser <[email protected]> wrote: When Lynda put the calendar up in the kitchen in 2005 I "That's what I want
> my Electric Vehicle to look like". February is a (yes I kept the calendar)
> 2002 Lamborghini Murcielago. You may laugh but all it would take is a tube
> frame chassis, full aluminum belly pan and a body off my oversize CNC that I
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

I'd go for what would be perceived as being cool by regular young people (I'm
old, so the rest of this is guessing.) I'm thinking something along the
lines of Matrix/Vibe/Versa/Mazda3, tricked out with custom wheels, etc. and
a good sound system (think John Wayland) might get the most bang for your
buck. I wouldn't go for the even smaller econoboxes, but these models all
seem to have "sports" versions so the manufacturers probably have market
tested them for appeal to young, "sporty" buyers. 






> Ryan Stotts wrote:
> >
> > Let's say for example I had some money and I was going to convert a
> > small fleet or cross section of `08 ( `09 where available) model
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Steve Condie:

> lines of Matrix/Vibe/Versa/Mazda3,


The only thing about those models is I don't see them in large numbers
on the streets(hence their popularity). I don't think most can relate
to those cars or have any feelings or attachments to them one way or
the other. The import kids are mainly into certain model Civics and
Integras.

It's got to be vehicles everyone already has or most want and making
them electric would make them even better and even more desirable.
Brakes and tires would be all it would ever need.

An electric Vette that was faster then a stock Vette and the Tesla and
had more range then the Tesla. Potentially even a lower price then
the Tesla! That would sell and be desirable. An American car beating
that British car.

An electric Mustang that was faster then a stock gas powered Mustang
and faster then the Tesla and had more range then the Tesla.

See how the Tesla is now the benchmark for both range and performance?

It would be incredibly satisfying to have Civics, Accords, and Camrys
be faster and have more range then the Tesla. A good challenge.

A performance electric Prius? Performance Explorers and Tahoe's that
will beat most cars? Slow electric has never sold well or been highly
desirable. It's going to take impressive performance to make people
want to switch over. With the lithium, the range shouldn't be an
issue.

No one wants to down size from their marginal or acceptable gas
vehicle to a slower, penalty box electric. It's got to be better then
what they currently have.

"I don't want this smelly $4/gal Civic; I want that high performance
electric Civic!" Fastest Civic ever made. And it's electric no less.

The slow hybrid Prius or the faster electric Prius? The slow gas
Tahoe or the faster electric Tahoe?

That's what it will take to make gas cars seem so antiquated and
yesterday. Why should the future be slow when it can be fast?

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> It's going to take impressive performance to make people
>want to switch over.

I agree 100%. The beauty is that you will be able to chirp the tires
in any gear, beat most street legal cars that cost 2x as much at the
track, and when driving with a light foot have better economy than a
Civic.

Once lithium gets affordable, I will be converting one of the below
for a 4.5 second 0-60 rocket, daily driver:

Infinity G35 coupe or sedan
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infiniti_G35

Lexus IS (300, 250, or 350)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lexus_IS

or maybe even a
Hyundai Coupe TSIII
http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=3777996

probably my 1st choice,
Porsche Boxster
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Porsche_Boxster

I was considering converting my current gasser, a BMW 323Ci.
http://picasaweb.google.com/pikkula/323Ci/photo#5190229484057636226
but after getting the 1400 page Bentley shop manual, I think I'll
pass. It's an order of magnitude more complicated than my Jetta
conversion. I'm probably fooling myself, as all the above will be as
complicated, but the BMW 3 series has some quirks that I'd like to get
away from in an electric car.

Brian





> Ryan Stotts <[email protected]> wrote:
> > Steve Condie:
> >
> >
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

I think your Prius buyer (and car buyers in general) want a huge company backing the car. I think the "Toyota" part of Prius is more important for its sales than the green part (in the sense it needed to be a "Toyota," and then green, to then be able to succeed, not just green). It would be very difficult to break into the market with a "practical" car, or keep afloat with small sales. Performance cars, on the other hand, do succeed as hand built niche markets (Porsche, Ferrari, Shelby, kit cars, etc.). The Tesla guys are smart, they realized it is easier to break into the car market as a performance car.


----- Original Message ----
From: EVDL Administrator <[email protected]>
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <[email protected]>
Sent: Saturday, April 26, 2008 11:21:16 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Which vehicles would make a difference?

... Many people on this list say that "greenness won't sell," and insist that performance will. Well, perhaps EV performance will sell too, but the Prius proves that "greenness" WILL and DOES sell. ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

From: Ryan Stotts <[email protected]>
> An electric Vette that was faster than a stock Vette and had more
> range than the Tesla. Potentially even a lower price than the Tesla!
> That would sell and be desirable.

Alas, what you are asking for doesn't exist. Tesla is trying hard, but even with their millions they may not be able to pull it off. Certainly many other companies have tried and failed.

> No one wants to down size from their marginal or acceptable gas
> vehicle to a slower, penalty box electric. It's got to be better
> than what they currently have.

Children want lots of things they can't have. But they grow up, and realize that like the song says, "You can't always get what you want. But sometimes, you get what you need."

People may want an exotic sports car; but very few actually buy them. Most people buy more practical and affordable transportation. Perhaps the true virtue of a cheap, simple, low-performance EV is that it saves enough money and gasoline so you can afford to drive your Testosteroni 2000 ICE on the weekend. (When gas hits $5 or $10 a gallon in the next few years, you're going to be able to buy today's gas hogs mighty cheap!)

--
Those who say it cannot be done should not interrupt the one who is
doing it. -- Chinese proverb
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart-at-earthlink.net

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

We are currently going through the process of getting a different 
car. Back in 2004, we purchased a new Prius as a replacement for the 
truck I am still converting. At the time I had hoped we would be able 
to get rid of our other gas car (1990 honda accord) once the truck 
was converted.

I have no confidence I can make a conversion that we can rely on as a 
second vehicle and now the honda needs to be replaced and the truck 
will be a third vehicle.

In our research we were looking at the Ford escape hybrid, but my 
wife has a strong bias against Ford's (not trying to start a flame 
war or discussion about whether this is a justified position, just 
stating the facts)

So the manufactures reputation and buyers perceptions of quality can 
not be underestimated. If Ford were selling an EV or a plug-in 
hybrid I could convince her to buy a ford.

Interestingly, I may have as easy a time convincing my wife to go 
with a start-up companies BEV as I would the hybrid escape.

So for this household 1) the size of the company backing a car is 
less important than the perception of the companies quality and 
reputation and 2) Green-ness can to a large extent outweigh a lack of 
history and size (eg spark-ev isn't going to cut it, but if the price 
were close to right we would consider a car from a new company 
similar to Tesla)

As it stands now, we are looking for a used Prius or Insight.

John




> David Dymaxion wrote:
> 
> > I think your Prius buyer (and car buyers in general) want a huge
> > company backing the car. I think the "Toyota" part of Prius is more
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Ryan said
> An electric Vette that was faster then a stock Vette and the Tesla and
> had more range then the Tesla. Potentially even a lower price then
> the Tesla! That would sell and be desirable. An American car beating
> that British car.
>
> An electric Mustang that was faster then a stock gas powered Mustang
> and faster then the Tesla and had more range then the Tesla.
The Tesla has a great range and a near unbeatable speed. This is
obtained by an entirely different mindset for the whole car. The rest of
the car must be strong and light. It seems excessive to require a vette
and a mustang to have better performance than the tesla, and to expect
it to cost less. Gotta be realistic.

And about the teenager's first car.
> Is that going to win them over as EV proponents? Or make them desire
> a gas car that has none such limitations even more? Will everyone
> they encounter with their "cool EV" also want one too and desire one
> just like it?
Maybe when he can afford take the girl to lunch and they can't ?
I agree it has to have more range than the typical teenager's day, not
be restrictive. Removing the backseat is probably a bad idea, gotta show
as many teenagers as you can after all.

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

An electric Mustang that was faster then a stock
> gas powered Mustang
> > and faster then the Tesla

see www.ssiracing.com or e-mail
[email protected]
kEVs


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Jeff Shanab wrote:
> 
> > It seems excessive to require a vette and a mustang
> > to have better performance than the tesla, and
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

The inverter is a very small cost compared to the batteries. Batteries
that can beat a Tesla in range, performance, and price are going to be
extremely hard to find.

-Morgan LaMoore



> Ryan Stotts <[email protected]> wrote:
> > Jeff Shanab wrote:
> >
> > > It seems excessive to require a vette and a mustang
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> In our research we were looking at the Ford escape hybrid, but my
> wife has a strong bias against Ford's (not trying to start a flame
> war or discussion about whether this is a justified position, just
> stating the facts)
>
> So the manufactures reputation and buyers perceptions of quality can
> not be underestimated. If Ford were selling an EV or a plug-in
> hybrid I could convince her to buy a ford.

If it helps, I believe that the hybrid drive system for the Ford
Escape is licensed from Toyota, and is much the same as the Prius's
and the Highlander's (different motor size, but same software I
think?).

Z

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

As a young'en myself, I can confirm that I bought a Mazda 3 as my
first car (with some "sport" upgrades).

-Steven



> Steve Condie <[email protected]> wrote:
> >
> > I'd go for what would be perceived as being cool by regular young people (I'm
> > old, so the rest of this is guessing.) I'm thinking something along the
> ...


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