# Dc Charging for Conversions



## AEM (Sep 12, 2014)

I remember the evtv video where someone managed to use a chademo charger, but there hasn't been much news on that recently. Nowadays ther are more chademo and CCS charging today as well as the new 150kw charging within the next two years. Has there been anything new on dc charging for diy EV conversions?


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## ga2500ev2017 (Jun 12, 2017)

I was thinking about creating a new thread, but I think this one fits well enough. First I'll start with questions on the original post. Then I'll add a few of my own that are related.

My opinion is that all of the issues surround what I call "Goldilocks opportunity charging" and the equipment needed to support it. DC charging DIY is going to be a tough road due to the power involved. 150 Kw is delivering 375-500 amps to a nominal 400 volt battery. Even current 25 Kw (63 amps) or 50 Kw (125 amps) is going to take some significant management to do safely.

So my question is other than availability what does DC fast charging really buy that's worth the effort to manage? 

Currently I'm looking at another approach. On board commercial EV chargers range from 3.3Kw to 10Kw with the exception of Tesla and its options up to 18-20Kw. They are perfectly sized to meet the goal of multi-hour or overnight charging. There are also the DC fast charging options starting generally at 24 Kw and up. But the hole that I see is the magic middle (Goldilocks) between the top of the onboard charger and the DC fast charger. For example J1772 AC can go up to 80A (19.2 Kw). It's even possible to get 9.6 Kw from a 14-50 50A campground socket. However, the onboard charger can't take advantage of it fully because it's above the maximum power of the onboard charger.

So my interest is a 20Kw charger that speaks DCFC protocols that's small enough to be hauled around. Recently I've been looking at the Chevy Bolt. So in particular I'm really interested in CCS-Combo that takes 50-80A AC in and delivers 9.6 - 19.2 Kw DC out.

The missing information for both CCS-Combo and CheDeMo are the high level communications protocols necessary to make it work. CheDeMo is simpler because it uses a CAN physical network while CCS-Combo uses the HomePlug Green PHY protocol that essentially talks TCP/IP over the J1772 pilot line. But I've hit a brick wall in my research in terms of any of the higher level protocols necessary to get a vehicle to accept a charge.

So it looks like we're looking at two sides of the same coin: the communcation necessary to get a DCFC station to talk to a DCFC vehicle.

Any suggestions of where to look for protocol details would be very welcome. Maybe there we can figure out how to get either or both CCS-Combo or CheDeMo to throttle down both voltage and current to something managable.

ga2500ev


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## AEM (Sep 12, 2014)

Uh has there been an recent waves on fast charging recently?


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## Kevin Sharpe (Jul 4, 2011)

AEM said:


> Uh has there been an recent waves on fast charging recently?


"EVTV" (Colin, Damien, and Jack) had a lot of success with CHAdeMO rapid charging and the project only stalled because some commercial chargers do not work reliably below 200V (the nominal voltage in Damiens car). Damien recorded a number of videos including this one;






Today we have lots of active development planned for CHAdeMO and CCS especially on cars that are using the Tesla 10kW chargers. Once we have cars on the road I think you'll see them rapid charging


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## AEM (Sep 12, 2014)

Thats great actually, since if I convert a car to electric at some point I would want it to have fast charging, to make it a bit more practical.


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## ga2500ev2017 (Jun 12, 2017)

AEM said:


> Thats great actually, since if I convert a car to electric at some point I would want it to have fast charging, to make it a bit more practical.


Practical how? There are only three or four contexts in which DCFC is essential:

1. Long range travel.
2. Extremely short term charging windows.
3. DCFC availability in places where L2 isn't.
4. DCFC is the primary charging option due to no L1/L2 at home/work.

There's a project floating around adding ChaDeMo DCFC charging to a Ford Focus Electric. Uses an Arduino with a couple of CAN buses as the onboard charge controller. Developer estimates total cost at about $2000 with assembly/programming required.

Tony Williams also has a ChaDeMo retrofit project for the Toyota Rav4. This is a $3k project.

So if you have a moment, can you give a use scenario that you believe justifies the expenditure or dollars and effort at that level?

ga2500ev


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## AEM (Sep 12, 2014)

ga2500ev2017 said:


> Practical how? There are only three or four contexts in which DCFC is essential:
> 
> 1. Long range travel.
> 2. Extremely short term charging windows.
> ...


Most likely a road trip of several hundred miles where level 2 would too slow. 
Though if I did add fast charging that would probably be for later, when it can be done for cheaper. Maybe use a port from a used ev.


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## AEM (Sep 12, 2014)

Mainly for a conversion I've been thinking of perhaps one of the newer Mazda rx-8 cars, with a large battery pack, either dual chevy volt battery packs, or a battery pack from the coming NMC 811 packs in the next two years. For a drive unit, either a leaf motor, a bmw i3 motor, or the small tesla DU, along with a 10kw tesla charger. Other parts would also be from used OEM parts.


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## Kevin Sharpe (Jul 4, 2011)

ga2500ev2017 said:


> This is a $3k project.


That may be the cost of a commercial product for an OEM EV but has no relationship to the costs for a conversion. For example, I fully expect the controller board in my Tesla charger will support the CHAdeMO protocol (and eventually CCS). All I'll need is a CHAdeMO-to-Type2 adapter from Tesla (mine cost 300 GBP on ebay).


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## AEM (Sep 12, 2014)

Kevin Sharpe said:


> That mat be the cost of a commercial product for an OEM EV but has no relationship to the costs for a conversion. For example, I fully expect the controller board in my Tesla charger will support the CHAdeMO protocol (and eventually CCS). All I'll need is a CHAdeMO-to-Type2 adapter from Tesla (mine cost 300 GBP on ebay).


Hey Kevin, in the usa what would be needed for fast charging since I don't think type 2 is used in the us


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## AEM (Sep 12, 2014)

At least it isn't used outside of a proposal called SAE J3068.


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## Kevin Sharpe (Jul 4, 2011)

AEM said:


> Hey Kevin, in the usa what would be needed for fast charging since I don't think type 2 is used in the us


All you need is a couple of contactors, a DC connector, and a Arduino (iirc Damien used a DUE).

The most expensive part is the connector. To keep costs down you could use a CHAdeMO connector from a wrecked Leaf, or a Tesla Model S connector with an adaptor, or even a US CCS connector (the J1772 version).


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## AEM (Sep 12, 2014)

I wonder what would be best, chademo would need two different ports for ac and dc, ccs is large and bulky, the tesla connector if you can get one would be the best along with chademo adaptor but would not have access to ccs 1 chargers.


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## AEM (Sep 12, 2014)

Oh also would wonder how fast they would charge, at least 40kw or so, though there is a slowly approaching wave of 100kw+ chargers. However that would need an ev with a battery pack over 50kwh to fully exploit those networks, they also be limited to minimum 200 volts because of those voltage issues you've mentioned.


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## AEM (Sep 12, 2014)

The thing I like about conversion using oem parts, is that you'll never run out of parts if replacement becomes neccesary and the battery pack could be replaced with a higher energy, but lighter and smaller pack. Like with the 2019 nissan leaf pack which won't be that much heavier than the current 40kwh and liquid cooled.


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## Kevin Sharpe (Jul 4, 2011)

AEM said:


> I wonder what would be best, chademo would need two different ports for ac and dc, ccs is large and bulky, the tesla connector if you can get one would be the best along with chademo adaptor but would not have access to ccs 1 chargers.


Damien's conversion is supporting AC and CHAdeMO using the Tesla car connector and the Tesla adaptor. See car connector here.

Other European conversions I'm involved with are supporting AC, CCS, and CHAdeMO using the Tesla adaptor. See car connector here.

We've chosen this path because one connector on the car supports 1 and 3 phase AC, CHadeMO DC, and CCS DC


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## AEM (Sep 12, 2014)

That does seem to be the most versatile, being able to use most chargers. How much does the used tesla connector cost, I've found some adaptors on eBay for 300 usd, would the connector be a similar price? Oh as well how large of a pack do you think could be fit into an rx-8 without intruding on trunk space or rear space. i saw on evalbum an rx-8 with 71 200 kokam cells converted in europe, I think batteries now a day _should_ be more energy dense.


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## Kevin Sharpe (Jul 4, 2011)

AEM said:


> How much does the used tesla connector cost, I've found some adaptors on eBay for 300 usd, would the connector be a similar price?


Often available for 200 USD on ebay.



AEM said:


> Oh as well how large of a pack do you think could be fit into an rx-8 without intruding on trunk space or rear space.


You'll need to ask that question in a more relevant thread... I don't know the answer


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## AEM (Sep 12, 2014)

Yeah that would make, since you're never converted that particular car. Hmm I remember on your bus thread that you planned to test i think either a tesla or type 2 connector at over 50kw. I know that in europe, tesla uses a type 2 with longer pins and uses it at just over 120kw. Do you plan to charge at that kind of speed in a future conversion? Your 75kwh pack should be readily able to accept about 8.5kw per module.


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## Kevin Sharpe (Jul 4, 2011)

AEM said:


> I know that in europe, tesla uses a type 2 with loner pins and uses it at just over 120kw.


We've measured the pins on the Tesla Type 2 connector and they appear to be the same as any other Type 2 connector. The only difference is that Tesla use all four AC pins when DC charging.



AEM said:


> Do you plan to charge at that kind of speed in afuture conversion? Your 75kwh pack should be readily able to accept about 8.5kw per module.


At public locations the charge rate will be constrained by the charger and my reduction in pack voltage to 300V (I'm only using 12 modules now).

However, we intend to develop our own supercharger which will be used to push the system to it's limits


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## AEM (Sep 12, 2014)

So you buy up a dozen 10kw chargers, use some later version of Damien's board and control them together then. That seems like it would be much cheaper to make, since the chargers would be secondhand. You could even have them powered by solar charged oem batteries to make your car even greener, or if its hooked up to the grid, ask for electricity from renewable energy.


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## ga2500ev2017 (Jun 12, 2017)

If a cheap inlet can be found it could be doable DIY. EVTV with Jack, Damien, et. al. have already solved this problem. The ChaDeMo controller they developed is called a JLD505. It's a custom board that is Arduino compatible. So it should be possible to either purchase one, or to develop an equivalent using an Arduino, a CANBus shield, and the a modified version of the open source JDL505 software on Github.

So take a read of the design/installation manual on GitHub. It goes into detail about the schematics and interface necessary to add ChaDeMo.

Since my initial foray into this thread 9 months ago, I've purchased a Fiat 500e. Adding ChaDeMo would be an interesting enhancement if it could be done in a cost effective manner.

ga2500ev


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## Tony Bogs (Apr 12, 2014)

And a pump, hoses, propyleneglycol, radiator, fan.

Last year I received a quote for a decent size solar roof, 20 panels.
750V, so recycling isn't going to work for me.

There are already a lot of protocols for charging and there are even more on the horizon.
For instance in the EU a group of car manufacturers has plans for a new protocol.
Higher power levels eventually lead to higher voltages. The size of the cable and plug limit the maximum current. 
I believe Porsche has plans for network of 750V chargers. Makes sense.


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## Kevin Sharpe (Jul 4, 2011)

Tony Bogs said:


> For instance in the EU a group of car manufacturers has plans for a new protocol.


These are all based on CCS and are backward compatible. The first 350kW stations are already live (see here) and the industry group leading these developments is CharIn (see here).


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## AEM (Sep 12, 2014)

ga2500ev2017 said:


> If a cheap inlet can be found it could be doable DIY. EVTV with Jack, Damien, et. al. have already solved this problem. The ChaDeMo controller they developed is called a JLD505. It's a custom board that is Arduino compatible. So it should be possible to either purchase one, or to develop an equivalent using an Arduino, a CANBus shield, and the a modified version of the open source JDL505 software on Github.
> 
> So take a read of the design/installation manual on GitHub. It goes into detail about the schematics and interface necessary to add ChaDeMo.
> 
> ...


It doesn't seem likee there's been much updates on the software for a while, wonder if if there would be any sizable differences between the coming 1.2 with 350+ amps? Probably isn't too different for the software, most of the differences seem to be hardware differences and the addition of V2Go.


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## Kevin Sharpe (Jul 4, 2011)

AEM said:


> It doesn't seem likee there's been much updates on the software for a while


I think you'll wait a long time for updates because EVTV is now very focused on solar not EVs.

Damien will probably be the first to deliver a working CHAdeMO solution because his project is closest to 'completion' (see here). My project will follow shortly after with CHAdeMO and later CCS (see here)


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## CanadaLT28 (Oct 15, 2011)

Does anyone know where to get the JLD505 or newer equivalent?


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## Scotty274 (Jul 1, 2020)

Any movement on this? If possible I should actually be able to get some quote good range out of this type setup


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## Isaac97 (Jun 3, 2019)

We've got development over at OpenInverter thread
A Due with CAN and EEPROM should be able to run it (alternatively one of Damien's Leaf VCUs). 
You need 2 inputs and 2 outputs, all 12v tolerant. Leaf VCU supplies that (with a tiny bit of modification - removal of R17 iirc).
Also, Damien has designed yet another neat hardware setup which will make wiring dead easy (it incorporates relays, pullups and interconnections so you just hook up the wires from the CHAdeMO plug and go). That's not out yet though, might be soon.
Leaf VCU

I see you're using eNV200 - will that be with the original BMS or a different one?


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## Scotty274 (Jul 1, 2020)

Isaac97 said:


> We've got development over at OpenInverter thread
> A Due with CAN and EEPROM should be able to run it (alternatively one of Damien's Leaf VCUs).
> You need 2 inputs and 2 outputs, all 12v tolerant. Leaf VCU supplies that (with a tiny bit of modification - removal of R17 iirc).
> Also, Damien has designed yet another neat hardware setup which will make wiring dead easy (it incorporates relays, pullups and interconnections so you just hook up the wires from the CHAdeMO plug and go). That's not out yet though, might be soon.
> ...


Planning to use a different one for packaging and because I won't be using any of the other leaf systems, it will just be easier to not use their BMS, so I was thinking either Orion or Batrium


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