# The Ocean State gets 50 new charging stations



## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

$781, 000 worth of 30 amp or less capability? I wonder how much it will cost to come back later to update them? We are already buying chargers that use more than 30 amps in the diy world, and I have my eyes on the 70 amp emw charger... Public charging stations are sphincters.


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

evmetro said:


> $781, 000 worth of 30 amp or less capability? I wonder how much it will cost to come back later to update them? We are already buying chargers that use more than 30 amps in the diy world, and I have my eyes on the 70 amp emw charger... Public charging stations are sphincters.


Were you there with a better proposal than ChargePoint offered? I don't think so. So quit your bitchin'  At least Rhode Island is doing something to promote plug-ins. Some of us see that as a positive


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## ElectriCar (Jun 15, 2008)

The main beneficiary of level II chargers are in my area would be those who work in the city and park in the garages where they're installed. I don't know what their aim is but these things aren't going to enable EV's to become main stream. 

So far I've used a public station once and was there for only 45 minutes, not really much to be gained in that scenario. Unless one goes to a bar and sits there half the night or a sporting event, they're really of limited benefit. There's one installed at a dang Burger King in my area. Seriously, what kind of a charge are you going to get in 20 minutes while you eat your lunch? Same thing at Walgreens who is installing them. Cracker Barrel OTOH is installing rapid chargers or was, not sure if they still are.

The only thing that will make them go main stream is rapid charging stations all over the map. I figured in my state of SC that if installed in 11 key locations, one could travel anywhere in the state via interstate in an original Leaf. As battery capacity grows, many of the level II chargers I've seen will be even more insignificant and likely sit idle more often than not.


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## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

Major, I was not there with a better proposal, but doing nothing at all may be better than wasting those funds. If the government offers up $781,000 to help small businesses grow, but does this by giving it to them in the form of floppy disk drives, it won't really help. I would bet that if they had wired up 100+ amps of service to the charging stations that there would be a lot fewer installed, but that the heavy duty service to the charging station would stand the test of time, and still be there for future charging station designs. I am not an expert on the power grid, but it would seem that the charging station itself is considered "equipment", and the service to the charging station is "infrastructure". In my limited amount of understanding of electricity principles, you wire components with wire that is at least big enough to handle the maximum load of the equipment, or go bigger. With your advanced knowledge of electricity principles, do you feel that that $781,000 was well spent? Or am I way off course?


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

evmetro said:


> Major, I was not there with a better proposal, but doing nothing at all may be better than wasting those funds. If the government offers up $781,000 to help small businesses grow, but does this by giving it to them in the form of floppy disk drives, it won't really help. I would bet that if they had wired up 100+ amps of service to the charging stations that there would be a lot fewer installed, but that the heavy duty service to the charging station would stand the test of time, and still be there for future charging station designs. I am not an expert on the power grid, but it would seem that the charging station itself is considered "equipment", and the service to the charging station is "infrastructure". In my limited amount of understanding of electricity principles, you wire components with wire that is at least big enough to handle the maximum load of the equipment, or go bigger. With your advanced knowledge of electricity principles, do you feel that that $781,000 was well spent? Or am I way off course?


I not offering an opinion about the cost, but the support of plug-in alternative cars is something I do like see from governments. On the surface it appears they selected a reputable provider. And the capability of the equipment is in line with what is being installed around the country and suitable for the plug-in cars in use and being sold today and in the near future. Having these charge stations visible to the public will encourage the adoption of plug-in vehicles. 

Personally I have a 3 kW charger in my EV. So these L2 EVSEs at 30A offer all I can handle. If I'm at a store or a burger joint for like 10 or 15 minutes, I'm not plugging in. If I'm at a mall or restaurant for an hour or 2, I might plug in. Having that capability might encourage me to drive my EV a bit further to patronize that establishment. Even if these places had 10kW, or 20kW charge stations, I couldn't use that capability and neither could most plug-in drivers. Even the Leaf EVs equipped with the L3 plug would be far and few to use the super expensive charge stations required. So what is the sense in installing larger more expensive stations 

I do most (almost all) charging in my garage at night. I'll bet most plug-in owners do. I just checked today. I installed my L2 EVSE and dedicated kWh meter 10 months ago. I've used 2920 kWh to charge my EV. I'll bet I have used less than 50 kWh from charge stations outside my garage. There have been about 3 or 4 trips where I have needed a few extra kWh and that was really mostly range anxiety as I think I could have done without it and run really low SOC. But having it there was nice. With the proliferation of charge stations I will find increase use for my EV and I see that as a good thing.

High power quick charge and/or battery swaps are a cool things for the future. But stop bitching about what we have now. It's good for what it is. And I thought you had your standard plug that could plug in anywhere, so what do you care anyway?


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## ElectriCar (Jun 15, 2008)

Major, I don't know what you have for an EV but I have a 100 mile range. I travel to college fb games in my state which is 90 miles away and we're there for about 6 hours. That's not enough for a complete recharge to get back home. If there was a rapid charge station near the stadium, I could stop in and recharge enough to make it back home or at least enough that a Level II station near the stadium could finish the job. 

My son lives 170 miles away and the beach is about 230 miles away. Those type trips and the inability to use an EV to take them is why EV's aren't getting the consideration from the public. 

A recent poll, forget which one says only 20% of the population would consider a pure EV. Heck that's higher than I thought but had the state decided to install Level 3 stations instead along the interstates or other major highways, the fear or being stranded would in time disappear. The first time Joe comes to work talking about taking a trip a few hundred miles away in his EV because of the new stations, people will take notice!

RE Level 2, I suspect Chargepoint has already among others already installed several of those around the state. I know we have a lot here.


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

ElectriCar said:


> If there was a rapid charge station near the stadium, I could stop in and recharge enough to make it back home or at least enough that a Level II station near the stadium could finish the job.


Yes, good point. The high power fast charge stations need be located near the highways and the stations spread out over the community only need to be the low/medium ones.


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## tomofreno (Mar 3, 2009)

ElectriCar said:


> Major, I don't know what you have for an EV but I have a 100 mile range. I travel to college fb games in my state which is 90 miles away and we're there for about 6 hours. That's not enough for a complete recharge to get back home. If there was a rapid charge station near the stadium, I could stop in and recharge enough to make it back home or at least enough that a Level II station near the stadium could finish the job.
> 
> My son lives 170 miles away and the beach is about 230 miles away. Those type trips and the inability to use an EV to take them is why EV's aren't getting the consideration from the public.
> 
> ...


 The level 2 EVSEs are around 7kW (240V/30A), so should permit charging at least at 6kW which would be 36kWh in 6 hours. The limitation must be your charger, not the EVSE.

I sometimes take longer trips too, probably around a dozen times per year, which is what caused me to complain about 7kW power limit for level 2. It would be nice to only spend 30 minutes charging rather than an hour or two, unless you are doing something like shopping or attending a fb game. But in those cases you are tying up the EVSE for hours, making it unavailable to others. I think this will become a significant problem as more EVs are sold, in fact it already is in places like the bay area in CA. 

I think the EV manufacturers see quick charging as the answer, thinking in the not-so-distant future they will have batteries that can handle it without significant impact on cycle life, and quick chargers will then be proliferated along major routes between towns and at strategic points in large cities. The level 2 EVSEs are foremost a security blanket I think, but useful for those of us who do take longer excursions less than 2x their range.


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

For the lack of a better place to post this, here are a few photos of my monster EV hooked up to public charge stations in Bowling Green, OH. The first 2 photos are at a municipal parking lot and the installation belongs to the city utility company. 



















This next photo is at an university parking lot.










The city installed 3 stations and BGSU installed 3 last year with the help of some grant, DOE, I think. These were identical hardware combined on the grant although the utility and university handled the installations separately. They are GE L2 EVSE units. GE recently decided to upgrade the units and put out free replacements. These were just installed and I was the first to test each of these 2 brand new charge stations today. Both worked and I got several Watts hours of free charge  I am about the only "regular" EV in town. Although I do see a Leaf at the city station often and see a Volt or two on the streets. There is also a Tesla Roadster living nearby.


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## ElectriCar (Jun 15, 2008)

tomofreno said:


> The level 2 EVSEs are around 7kW (240V/30A), ...


Not in my area. We have Chargepoints which may be 7kw but all that I've used which are numerous and free to use are made by Eaton and are 3.8Kw models. The same unit is available in 7.2Kw but I haven't found one here. Also my 5Kw charger was purchased before these stations were around so it can't communicate with them to adjust charging current. Therefore it won't work I learned unless I trim the max current back with a screwdriver.  

But yes, with a rapid charger the station won't be "tied up" while someone is away from the car for a while. I could see me stopping near my destination and charging to 80% then finishing the trip and stopping to quick charge again on the way back if needed.


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## ElectriCar (Jun 15, 2008)

major said:


> For the lack of a better place to post this, here are a few photos of my monster EV hooked up to public charge stations in Bowling Green, OH. The first 2 photos are at a municipal parking lot and the installation belongs to the city utility company.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Let me guess, you use about 250Wh/mile from the meter? Do tell!


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

ElectriCar said:


> Let me guess, you use about 250Wh/mile from the meter? Do tell!


It varies all over the place but likely averages more like 320Wh/mi. I drive hard and fast. Most of my daily commute is 65 mph. 24 kWh battery. Most days a little less than 40 miles. With my rates, about 3-4 cents per mile.

Here is a post I just did on the Th!nk forum:


> I installed a dedicated kWh meter on my L2 EVSE in my garage where I do approximately 99% of my charging. It reads 2920 kWh. My first noted reading was 55 kWh at 4154 miles. So I've used 2865 kWh for 8261 miles. That is 2.88 miles/kWh or 347 Wh/mi.


That was weighted a little heavy to winter driving which really uses a lot more energy (electric heater). On the other hand, in mild weather and hypermiling it I can see near 200 Wh/mi.


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## ElectriCar (Jun 15, 2008)

lol lead foot! Yes that's my nature but I love saving the money so I've slowed down a bit, well when I'm not racing from job to job. Yesterday we made a leisurely trip to town and used only about 265wh/mile, feather footin' it!


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## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

major said:


> I not offering an opinion about the cost, but the support of plug-in alternative cars is something I do like see from governments. On the surface it appears they selected a reputable provider. And the capability of the equipment is in line with what is being installed around the country and suitable for the plug-in cars in use and being sold today and in the near future. Having these charge stations visible to the public will encourage the adoption of plug-in vehicles.
> 
> Personally I have a 3 kW charger in my EV. So these L2 EVSEs at 30A offer all I can handle. If I'm at a store or a burger joint for like 10 or 15 minutes, I'm not plugging in. If I'm at a mall or restaurant for an hour or 2, I might plug in. Having that capability might encourage me to drive my EV a bit further to patronize that establishment. Even if these places had 10kW, or 20kW charge stations, I couldn't use that capability and neither could most plug-in drivers. Even the Leaf EVs equipped with the L3 plug would be far and few to use the super expensive charge stations required. So what is the sense in installing larger more expensive stations
> 
> ...


With your advanced level of knowledge on the principle of electricity, Do you feel that it is appropriate to wire a component with cable that is only rated for a third of its maximum load? 

If the newest oem EVs are able to use 30 amps, then all of the new models from here out will be limited to 30 amps no matter what charger they run. Does this not make the new charging stations sphincters? It would appear that the government is not really doing anything at all to help. They are stopping us dead in our tracks! Major, you are one of the sharpest people I have encountered... Surely you can see that these sphincters are not helping. Remember that the government is spending OUR money, and it will be OUR money that is spent ripping out all that 30 amp service to upgrade later so that even more of our money can be spent doing what they screwed up this time.


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

evmetro said:


> With your advanced level of knowledge on the principle of electricity, Do you feel that it is appropriate to wire a component with cable that is only rated for a third of its maximum load?
> 
> If the newest oem EVs are able to use 30 amps, then all of the new models from here out will be limited to 30 amps no matter what charger they run. Does this not make the new charging stations sphincters? It would appear that the government is not really doing anything at all to help. They are stopping us dead in our tracks! Major, you are one of the sharpest people I have encountered... Surely you can see that these sphincters are not helping. Remember that the government is spending OUR money, and it will be OUR money that is spent ripping out all that 30 amp service to upgrade later so that even more of our money can be spent doing what they screwed up this time.


I'm sorry, but I have no idea what you're talking about  The charge stations are wired appropriately as far as I know. They are suitable for the vast majority of users. When the use profile or the need changes, new equipment can be installed. Like the example in this thread, that higher power fast charge equipment would likely be better located near the highway and leave these L2 stations in city.


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## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

I do admit that I am naive when talking about the power grid. I am understanding that L2 charging stations are capable of up to 80 amps. What would limit them to 30 amps? If it is the service to the charging station, would that be wiring something with cable that is rated for about a third of what the charger is designed for? It is quite possible that I am not seeing what is really going on... can you fill me in?


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## tomofreno (Mar 3, 2009)

ElectriCar said:


> Not in my area. We have Chargepoints which may be 7kw but all that I've used which are numerous and free to use are made by Eaton and are 3.8Kw models. The same unit is available in 7.2Kw but I haven't found one here. Also my 5Kw charger was purchased before these stations were around so it can't communicate with them to adjust charging current. Therefore it won't work I learned unless I trim the max current back with a screwdriver.
> 
> But yes, with a rapid charger the station won't be "tied up" while someone is away from the car for a while. I could see me stopping near my destination and charging to 80% then finishing the trip and stopping to quick charge again on the way back if needed.


 Ahh, I see. I've used Chargepoint and Clipper Creek here, 2 different installations of each, all are 240V/30A.


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## tomofreno (Mar 3, 2009)

evmetro said:


> I do admit that I am naive when talking about the power grid. I am understanding that L2 charging stations are capable of up to 80 amps. What would limit them to 30 amps? If it is the service to the charging station, would that be wiring something with cable that is rated for about a third of what the charger is designed for? It is quite possible that I am not seeing what is really going on... can you fill me in?


 I would guess they used wire size supplying the EVSE specified in the nec for length run and max current they plan, which for many level 2, for example Chargepoint, is 30A. But I don't know. They may have over-sized them thinking they may want to upgrade the EVSEs to higher current in the future. If not, and they did decide to upgrade the current capability, then yes they would have to replace the service wiring. I don't expect they will though. I think they will move to DC fast chargers at strategic points and leave the 30A level 2 for emergencies and convenience charging to add a tad. Like I said, I think they are mainly a security blanket, giving people peace of mind that they won't be stranded somewhere if they overestimate how much charge they have remaining when the leave home. They likely figure that won't happen often, and you can wait a while to add enough charge in that case.

I think most of us on here who are driving an EV daily do almost all our charging at home, and so will most who purchase a manufactured EV. You only require charging away from home if you take a round trip that is beyond your range, and I think the manufacturers are planning to deploy DC fast charging to cover most of that. The level 2's are for peace of mind.

Level 2 can be up to 70 or 80A as you say, but I think there have been very few installed with that capability, and mostly in CA for Tesla roadsters. I doubt there will be more of those due to the new Tesla superchargers now being deployed.


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## tomofreno (Mar 3, 2009)

major said:


> For the lack of a better place to post this, here are a few photos of my monster EV hooked up to public charge stations in Bowling Green, OH. The first 2 photos are at a municipal parking lot and the installation belongs to the city utility company...


 I like those little Thinks, was sorry to see them go out of business.


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