# Near Disaster...



## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

Dam, tough break. I head of some problems withe kelly controllers but nothing like this. I hope they are able to figure things out because they offer regen in some of their controlers and are much cheaper than curtis.

Glad you were able to control the situation and hope you can get things working again. On the bright side, you are nearly done with the conversion, and thats more than some of us can say.


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## madderscience (Jun 28, 2008)

A kelly controller failed in a similar fashion (smoke and flames) in a geo metro a while ago in seattle here too. It was a pre-production model though. They are still very new and haven't got all their bugs worked out.

Is the kelly under warrentee?

Fortunately though it isn't cheap it is relatively easy to swap in a new controller.

Make sure the new controller has a good heat sink and that you use heat sink compound in the junction to ensure things don't get too hot.


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## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

dude that totally sucks, I just got my EV on the road today, I have a logisystem controller and I tell ya after 5 miles on it it sure gets hot as well, too hot I think I will be asking that question Monday. Let us all know what kind of support you get with Kelly and the turn around time. Service is just as important as the product.

Brian


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## Coley (Jul 26, 2007)

Sorry for your loss. I am just glad that the car was not inside the garage with NO extinguisher!

Mine went went bad in the shop and had smoke, but no flames.

I keep a small extinguisher in the car at all times.


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

Coley said:


> Sorry for your loss. I am just glad that the car was not inside the garage with NO extinguisher!
> 
> Mine went went bad in the shop and had smoke, but no flames.
> 
> I keep a small extinguisher in the car at all times.


Was this a kelly controller too??


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## Coley (Jul 26, 2007)

No, it was an Alltrax and they warranteed it just fine.

The replacement has been great.


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## MindMil (Jul 22, 2008)

fugdabug said:


> #($*@[email protected]* Kelly controller started the fire. I quick checked the contacter and it was OK, shunt fine no burned cables to motor or on fire wiring... The controller was SO HOT, it started a fire on the insulator plastic and burned part of my blower fan... I will give it a full autopsy in the morning...


Can you post the pictures of your setup and autopsy results please? I'd like to be prepared for these kinds of issues and possibly find a way how to avoid it. I'll make a separate currents and temps monitor controller to shut off the contactor immediately when something weird starts to happen.


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## fugdabug (Jul 14, 2008)

MindMil said:


> Can you post the pictures of your setup and autopsy results please? I'd like to be prepared for these kinds of issues and possibly find a way how to avoid it. I'll make a separate currents and temps monitor controller to shut off the contactor immediately when something weird starts to happen.


I was thinking that was what I would do this morning as I lay in bed last night... pictures not only document the damage they also provide a good analysis of the situation if taken in proper angle and of the involved parts... 
You know I was also thinking of using a rather primitive but possibly effective ('would have been' effective...) oven remote sensor thermometer that I had on hand... which is part of the design, but I was going to put it on the motor... cost me all of $19.00. I will know to put it on the next controller!!!
But it wouldn't have saved this situation, this was within a minute of start-up. My yard loop goes all of 150'..?.. and the runaway started just seconds into the loop, I nearly made it into the garage!!!... man am I glad THAT didn't happen!!!


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## DVR (Apr 10, 2008)

This is Shocking stuff indeed. While I'm sure your pissed atm it could have been a lot worse by the sound of it ie total loss of the car 
IMHO this is yet another reason I wouldn't be comfortable using a KELLY. So far I think of all the controllers I've heard of going run-away, Kelly's are too well represented for me to trust them with my family. I don't care how "good" their after sale service/waranty is, the product could almost be called dangerous.


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## elevatorguy (Jul 26, 2007)

Glad it wasn't worse and you and the vehicle are ok.
This reminds us all that safety is a big concern and we need to build with that in mind. A fire extinguisher is a good idea too!
I recently had a controller meltdown/runaway with a mini atv, smoke and melted parts, luckily wasn't riden at the time.


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## TheSGC (Nov 15, 2007)

Yours is the 14500 right? The web site says that they now have a 14500B that will be available in two weeks. So I wonder if there was a problem and they were aware of it, but you got an old version?


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## Astronomer (Aug 7, 2008)

Sorry for your loss and delay. I'm glad you were there to contain the damage. It sounds like you acted quickly and with a cool head. At least the batteries and motor are okay.


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## fugdabug (Jul 14, 2008)

DVR said:


> This is Shocking stuff indeed. While I'm sure your pissed atm it could have been a lot worse by the sound of it ie total loss of the car
> IMHO this is yet another reason I wouldn't be comfortable using a KELLY. So far I think of all the controllers I've heard of going run-away, Kelly's are too well represented for me to trust them with my family. I don't care how "good" their after sale service/waranty is, the product could almost be called dangerous.


What warranty? -- From what I see of others so far, this 'company' (of what appears to me to be actually one person - Steven Li) offers 'upgrades' for the difference in price... and lo and behold I go to the Kelly site this morning...AND GUESS WHAT... the 'upgrade' I was assured I could get, is now 'obsolete'... The product is shipped directly from China.
No, I am going to report them to the Better Business Bureau and then... I will call ElectricVehiclesUSA telling them of the experience, and ask for any assistance they may offer (other than a pat on the back and some reassuring words...). 
Then I am going to call the Federales and ask them to check on the immigration status of one Steven Li... 
I was born in Texas, but I was raised in South Dakota,.. and like they say out in the Black Hills: "Don't get mad, get even..." My money doesn't sit well with crap products. I am a business person myself, and my customers get more than what they ask for when they come to me, and with my name on it... and they know where I live.
I expect the same... Chinese or not!


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## fugdabug (Jul 14, 2008)

I don't know if this will attach, however I had to take this picture... I was thinking that with all the batteries I wouldn't have access to the trunk for the boot, so I put holes in the floor above the boot space and a fan inside and ran an old vacuum hose out (that I would figure out a way of attaching properly... this morning...) with a bolt across the mouth of it to keep it attached inside and then silicone the seal. This way I could vent the fumes from the battery box (that was still incomplete as of last night) and run them out under the garage door. It just sort of hit me funny... hope it comes along for the show...


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## rfengineers (Jun 2, 2008)

Fugdabug,
I glad that you were able to control the situation. 

I have been debating several "safety" options for my conversion. One of the situations that I have heard about is the "Controller Fails in Full-On Mode" problem. It appears that you have some first-hand experience with this fault.

Is this what happened?
_You were driving under normal conditions when the motor suddenly went full-on. You hit the brakes (I would have) and reached up and turned off the key. The system then shut down (except for the fire, of course).
_
If this is what happened then I would think that the contactor successfully interrupted 144-Volts at rather high current (the current would have jumped when you increased the motor load by hitting the brakes). Breaking high Voltage at high current is tricky. The contactor normally makes/breaks with little or no current. With high current there WILL be an arc and possible contact welding. So:

What kind of contactor are you using?

Would you recommend installing some type of "panic button" to turn off the contactor, or is the key sufficient?

What do you think of the practice of installing an "Emergency Disconnect" that disconnects the battery from the system by pulling a cable and separating a pair of 'Anderson' connectors?

Thanks for your help.

Joe


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## fugdabug (Jul 14, 2008)

rfengineers said:


> Fugdabug,
> I glad that you were able to control the situation.
> 
> I have been debating several "safety" options for my conversion. One of the situations that I have heard about is the "Controller Fails in Full-On Mode" problem. It appears that you have some first-hand experience with this fault.
> ...


HOWDY! I am having a really bad time getting this forum to load for me, I have tried to see if other sites were the same way, and they aren't... so it isn't my computer so if I am not responding in a timely fashion... that is the reason. And especially now, this forum is more important than ever...

Anyway, Joe,
I have my contactor power wired to a pig-tail off the positive post of the system battery (12V). With a pull-apart connector, I also have a heavy disconnect for the IGN switch/stock system... THEN I have my Panic button between the front seats (a 160VDC 250Amp breaker- attached photo) which kills the high voltage system. And of course the ign. switch which only locks the steering and cuts stock system power (lights, etc.). I simply hooked up my 12V plug-in (which powered the contactor, fuse box and controller...) then initiated the system breaker, and got in the car turned on ignition, and put 'panic button to on... (with the new 144VDC battery bank installed and fused). The car started out I when from 1st to 2nd gear as it was lurching in first (I have a clutch and believe that a clutch IS necessary...) made it about 50' around the loop in the yard and smoke started appearing and the motor went 'runaway' I took it out of gear right away, hit the hit the brake and the panic button immediately after. You have to understand this was all very fast and only less than a minute total! I opened the hood saw the fire and pulled contactor connection apart, killed the system and ran into the house for the fire extinguisher (I saw that the controller was burning and had started my makeshift plastic insulator box and fan housing on fire!)... up on the first couple of sprays the contactor showed glowing components within its housing... I gave it another good hit and all this time the motor was still 'winding down'... Yesterday I took some photos and did some minor disassembly, the work in earnest will be today. I have to get it into the garage and get to work gutting the system. Then comes the finding of a new controller. The contactor is an Albright, and it disconnected immediately upon my cutting the power by pulling the connection apart. It was not damaged in any way other than getting a spray of powder. Still works! It was nothing more than that Kelly controller. It failed completely it just burst into flames and smoke with the 144VDC application. SO I am now off to search for a controller for my vehicle... NOT a Kelly, that is for sure. By the way Bellatronix is Russian made (as in Belarus). So it is either Curtis or I have heard of another American made controller... forget the name right off... but that is for later today...
Hope my being able to load this site improves soon... it is apparently the ads. It chokes loading the 'pageads2.googlesyndication/' app. 
Any way that is my story... and I'm stickin' to it!...


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## TelnetManta (Jun 5, 2008)

Fugdabug,

I saw that you were looking for an American made controller and thought that I would chime in. I just successfully tested my Logisystems controller last night on 144V and it worked perfectly.

I hope that you get the car going soon, it has to suck after all of the work getting to this point.

Ben in SC


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## rfengineers (Jun 2, 2008)

fugdabug said:


> I have my contactor power wired to a pig-tail off the positive post of the system battery (12V). With a pull-apart connector, I also have a heavy disconnect for the IGN switch/stock system... THEN I have my Panic button between the front seats (a 160VDC 250Amp breaker- attached photo) which kills the high voltage system. And of course the ign. switch which only locks the steering and cuts stock system power (lights, etc.). I simply hooked up my 12V plug-in (which powered the contactor, fuse box and controller...) then...


Fugdabug,

Wow! OK, don't take this the wrong way, but I am a little concerned with your design. 

I have been told that I can be overcautious, but that is because I have quite a few years of experience as a high-power communications and radar technician. I was present when a co-worker accidentally killed himself with high voltage, and I have been called-in to repair systems after the previous technician was electrocuted. I believe I have a basis for my cautious nature.

First, I am uncomfortable with you bringing the 144V into the passenger compartment. I see that you have the breaker properly mounted and well insulated, but still, I would have put it in the motor compartment and used an insulated 'trip-line' to turn off the breaker remotely in the event of a problem.

Next, I gather from your description that your contactor is on when you connect the 12V power under the hood. I would like to see a 12V switch accessible to the driver (e.g. the ignition key or a 'panic button') that would turn off the contactor.

Since you turned off the high-voltage before you powered down the contactor then the failure mode I was anticipating was avoided. You contactor had no current flowing through it when you powered it down.

Finally, I have a nagging suspicion about why your Kelley controller failed. A Curtis controller rated for 144V has a MAXIMUM voltage rating of around 160V. This is because a fully charged 144V Lead-Acid battery will be at about 156V. Likewise a fully charged 120V LA battery will be at about 135V, so a 120V controller should be able to handle at-least 140V to 145V (Maximum rating).
My GUESS is that a 144V Kelley controller is 144V-MAX and, therefore, is only good for a 120V battery. Mind you, this is only a GUESS.

If you would like, send me a wiring diagram of your system and I will look it over with my "Analytical Engineer's Eye"

Good Luck, and PLEASE be careful!

Joe


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## Qer (May 7, 2008)

Fugdabug,

just a word of concern, you might be aware of it already but anyway...

Burning wires can result in very icky toxic stuff, depending on what they're made of. I'm not 100% sure about the English name (my second language has it's limitations ), but I think it's called hydrofluoric acid. It's toxic as hell, can penetrate the skin and there has been cases where persons has got a limb amputated to save their lives after being exposed.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrofluoric_acid#Safety

When it comes to repairing cars after a fire rubber gloves are recommended. Serious, thick rubber gloves.


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## fugdabug (Jul 14, 2008)

Dear Folks,
It takes me about ten minutes to get from one screen to the next in this forum, this has been going on for about three days now... So please excuse me for not replying sooner or getting to all the inquiries or pieces of info that you have offered. So I will tell you what has happened since this morning:
1. I am sending the controller back to Kelly (with a copy of the email I was sent by Electric-VehiclesUSA.com for 'return under warranty') I initially told the rep "I don't want another Kelly... I don't care if the Chinese Government were to deliver it to my door for FREE!"... but I rant... anyhoo, 2. it is under warranty so I can get it replaced for the shipping back to Kelly's 'return department' attn: Wen Li... ('Steven' Li). Heee heeee! Let's see if they honor the warranty. 3. I do know that I am going to have to reduce the base voltage of the system. I am going to start out with a 12- pack of 6V's for 72VDC and see how I do. Then if the system remains stable after a trial run I will buck it up to 96VDC, and for the car I have that should be the weight limit... The 144VDC pack makes it look like a dog draggin' its butt... ! And I don't trust the Kelly controller to go the distance for voltage rating... which is supposed to max at 156V... uh, ya rite!!! I e-mailed EV-USA three pictures of the fried box, and explained that there have been others I have corresponded with that had Kelly's go bad. The rep. wanted photos for their records and to show their product buyers.
4. Side note: JOE, the batteries were only in the back uncovered due to the fact that (just like my pig-tail connection for the contactor) the design wasn't finished. I was moving it back into the stall to finish the battery box build. The pig-tail that was to allow me to wire in a separate ign. switch to turn power to the contactor on and off, with future plans of rewiring the entire stock system in the Spring to the new ign. switch.
5. To all of you: Thank you for all that you have added. I hope I can get this forum viewing thing fixed... it is apparently linked to the sites ad display mechanism. I haven't found any problem with other sites what-so-ever... odd that. I will post the pictures of my 'near disaster' in the near future or on my website soon. I am also in the middle of helping my wife can up some goulash!..  uh ya... I do dat too... I still have about 8 cords of wood to put up (I have to cut most of it and skid it first though... hope the weather holds another week...) Well, more soon.


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## TheSGC (Nov 15, 2007)

Any update on the controller? I have been looking at the KDH96400 for a temporary controller, and after doing what must have been hours of research, I have found that all the runaways and failures have been with the 14500A controllers. (Which were replaced recently.)


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## fugdabug (Jul 14, 2008)

TheSGC said:


> Any update on the controller? I have been looking at the KDH96400 for a temporary controller, and after doing what must have been hours of research, I have found that all the runaways and failures have been with the 14500A controllers. (Which were replaced recently.)


I am waiting for a couple of parts to come that will update my system... I got a new controller (14500'B') in the post Monday. I put it on my test bench and programmed it yesterday, am presently plotting out the new configuration in the 'box' enclosure I built to protect from road splash etc.. Hope to finish a redesign today. I will post a new thread when I get the process installed. I am on my linux disk and seem to be able to get in to the forum with no problem now... must either be the new Firefox 3.0 (in my winXPpro) or the windows OS itself... so I can respond quickly again!


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## fugdabug (Jul 14, 2008)

TheSGC said:


> Any update on the controller? I have been looking at the KDH96400 for a temporary controller, and after doing what must have been hours of research, I have found that all the runaways and failures have been with the 14500A controllers. (Which were replaced recently.)


Nice to have a non-rust prone vehicle that is newer to start on... my next project (for next Spring) is a 1988 Suburu GL. You have a very nice Civic there!


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## TX_Dj (Jul 25, 2008)

If anyone's looking for the great linux debate that spawned off of fugdabug's comments above, I split them into their own topic here: http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showthread.php/great-linux-debate-21498.html

Felt it was a little unfair that we let fugdabug's thread about his near disaster turn into a linux discussion, which isn't on topic for "Technical Discussion" (in the scope of "EV Conversions and Builds").

Please go there to continue the talk about Linux and such, and let's leave this one focused towards the EV Tech.


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## TheSGC (Nov 15, 2007)

fugdabug said:


> Nice to have a non-rust prone vehicle that is newer to start on... my next project (for next Spring) is a 1988 Suburu GL. You have a very nice Civic there!


That Civic was indeed a great find. It was pretty much handed to me for a price of $600. 

How's the upgrades coming along? I am waiting for my controller to arrive, which is supposed to be dropshipped from Kelly, but I am going to call the distributor tomorrow because I ordered it last week and have recieve no shipping info. I just have an order confimation, but the site does say 1-2 weeks and since it dropshipped the tracking number might not come in. But I can't wait that long!!!


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## jbeatty (Sep 6, 2008)

Really sorry to hear about your meltdown. You and I were discussing Kelly controllers on another thread. I'm the high school teacher with the Kelly that doesn't reach full current. Steven sent me an 'upgrade'. It's the 400 amp model. We now get more current, but not 400. Now we're up to 250 amps. The worst part..... the regen does not work AT ALL on this new controller. The first kelly I had worked somewhat. The on/off regen switch worked, but the analog signal had no effect. Now, we have the replacement installed, we get more current but still not the rated value, and have no regen at all. I'm now trying to decide which controller to send back to Steven. Do I keep the one that only puts out 130 amps and has regen (sort of), or do I keep the one that puts out 250 amps (even though its a 400 amp model), but has no regen whatsoever. It's pretty ludicrous that as a customer I have to decide which advertised feature I can live without! I will NEVER buy Kelly again. The real bummer is, my students were looking at their hub motors for our next car, but I really don't know if we should take the chance.


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## Caffe (Nov 26, 2007)

Sorry to hear! But thanks for the heads up. Sharing experience like this always helps others to not make the same mistake. (And also it feels a little better with the support of others!)


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## fugdabug (Jul 14, 2008)

jbeatty said:


> Really sorry to hear about your meltdown. You and I were discussing Kelly controllers on another thread. I'm the high school teacher with the Kelly that doesn't reach full current. Steven sent me an 'upgrade'. It's the 400 amp model. We now get more current, but not 400. Now we're up to 250 amps. The worst part..... the regen does not work AT ALL on this new controller. The first kelly I had worked somewhat. The on/off regen switch worked, but the analog signal had no effect. Now, we have the replacement installed, we get more current but still not the rated value, and have no regen at all. I'm now trying to decide which controller to send back to Steven. Do I keep the one that only puts out 130 amps and has regen (sort of), or do I keep the one that puts out 250 amps (even though its a 400 amp model), but has no regen whatsoever. It's pretty ludicrous that as a customer I have to decide which advertised feature I can live without! I will NEVER buy Kelly again. The real bummer is, my students were looking at their hub motors for our next car, but I really don't know if we should take the chance.


Hello!,
I was 'fortunate' in the sense that I bought my 14500(a) from Electric Vehicles USA... it was warranteed by them. I had contact with 'Steven' whose real name is Wen, when I contacted Kelly about some additional information regarding any fusing of the controller's 12V circuit. From there it was rather weird... He found out I had contacted E-V USA about the controller and the warranty and I got about 9 emails from him offering me this and that (for a couple hundred more dollars... ) and finally a 'downgrade'... I was steaming about then, and politely wrote saying 'no thanks' and that I was awaiting my replacement ... which as fortune would have it was sent to me as a 14500'B'... I pointed this out to the folks at E-V USA,.. and because of the mix up they had made in the invoicing they held true to their word and sent me an upgrade without extra charge (which was a shocker to me!... that they would do such a thing to satisfy a customer that was rather disgruntled!) I am still awaiting a shipment of some terminals and additional PakTrakr remotes, I just got t he Zivan charger I ordered yesterday... it came from California and I am returning it under 'return authorized code'. The darn thing was mangled up on the mounts and it had the wrong plug-in adapter... I was told 'Oh well it will work either 115 or 220!' And I told the fellow that wasn't what I paid for, I ordered a 220 with 220 adaptor.. Why the heck should I pay for something I didn't order, then wait for a proper adaptor and take receipt of mangled goods when I am paying HUNDREDS of dollars for the thing as NEW?.. So, I am not ordering anything ever again from them. The guy told me when I was looking 'Oh try this one it is something we highly recommend'.. ya know, that is how I wound up with the darn Kelly in the first place! And this PFC1500 Zivan is also shipped from CHINA... to the people in California! I am NOT going to go through that crap again... NO WAY! I am ordering a Rossco... From EVParts.com! Burn me once shame on you! Burn me twice... shame on me! Now I have to hope this new 14500'B' which is rated as high as 168VDC max., will work properly with my 108VDC system...... well, here goes nothin'... If this one doesn't work, it will be a Curtis 1231C for sure! (good luck to you!.. hope the kids aren't let down again.)


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## TheSGC (Nov 15, 2007)

How did you wire your throttle? My Kelly Controller came in yesterday and I have just gotten around to opening it and programming it up. The schematic shows a three wire throttle, and my throttle had the three wires added already, but which wire goes to the +5 and which to GND? I now the middle one if for Throttle output, so I have a 50/50 chance of getting it right.


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## TX_Dj (Jul 25, 2008)

jbeatty said:


> Steven sent me an 'upgrade'. It's the 400 amp model. We now get more current, but not 400. Now we're up to 250 amps.


Measured at the motor or at the pack?


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## fugdabug (Jul 14, 2008)

TheSGC said:


> How did you wire your throttle? My Kelly Controller came in yesterday and I have just gotten around to opening it and programming it up. The schematic shows a three wire throttle, and my throttle had the three wires added already, but which wire goes to the +5 and which to GND? I now the middle one if for Throttle output, so I have a 50/50 chance of getting it right.


OK, I figured this is rather important, so I want to make sure you get the info you need ASAP:

Using Port J2 (when looking at the face of the controller J2 is the aviation style connector with 14 pins, to the RIGHT) the notch is to the top remember you are reversing your view when wiring... so if you lay the connector on the table in front of you with notch at bottom you count from notch counter-clockwise from notch thus first pin is 12V power, second is the 12V gnd., THIRD is the WHITE WIRE from the THROTTLE (potentiometer), skip fourth, FIFTH is the NC wire from the micro-switch*, skip skip sixth, SEVENTH is the BLACK WIRE from the throttle. That completes the wiring of the J2 plug.
NOW* the potentiometer has two wires coming out of the back of the unit one black one white, and a Micro-switch with THREE PRONGS. If you lay the throttle (the potentiometer unit) on a table in front of you with the pig-tail of two wires to the right, the micro-switch is to the bottom left. The LEFT-most prong is the 'COM' wire and should be fused with a 1AMP fuse, and is connected to the 'B+' pole off the controller (I just put a large loop and bolted it on when I put the cable connection on the controller. The 'NC' wire is the RIGHT-most prong (the middle prong is left OPEN), and it gets wired to PIN 5 (the FIFTH pin according to the scheme above). Other people may say different, however I used Bob Brandt's configuration ("Build Your Own Electric Vehicle") and the illustration that was on the Kelly site at one time... that showed t he proper wiring of the pins for t he throttle, instead of trying to guess the conversion from the curtis configuration used by Brandt! 
And it works just like it is supposed to, so I did it right.
I am on my Linux box so I don't have access to my file folder with the illustrative photo... Will try to post it from the WindowsBox... 
Hope t his helps.


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## fugdabug (Jul 14, 2008)

Picture with notation.


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