# AWD EV Motorcycle



## storx (Nov 24, 2013)

Hello Guys, 

This is my first post on here and i am looking for help and understanding to determine if i should proceed the EV route or normal ICE route. I am an motorcycle lover and i was forced to give up my sports bikes after being injured while deployed causing perm nerve damage to my spine and back. I am fairly mobile still but i have an issue were i cannot look up over normal line of sight very long or both of my arms go numb and sometimes become light headed. So i was forced to stop riding bikes for the past few years because of this... I thought i could withstand a cruiser but you still arch your neck in the process of riding it.. not nearly as much as a sport bike but you still do some and i kept having the issues causing me to pull off the road to wait for feeling in my hands.... so i was forced to sell it.. Now i am searching for a way to enjoy a motorcycle ride and not have this issue so i came across a company in South Florida that was displaying there motorcycle at a local bike event i went to and after talking with the guys they took me for a ride in one of there demo's to see if a few minute ride would cause any issues with me with the go-cart sitting position. Well after joking around with the owner after the show on his demo version i became hooked and really enjoyed it..... so i asked him how much... well the price tag was way way out of my pocket range ($75,000) so i had to pass on buying one. Well after talking to an old friend from high school he asked me the other day if i wanted to try and build one myself with his help... he is a pipe welder so he figured it wouldnt be all that hard to create with a little planning. Started thinking about it the last week and the only drawback of the bike was that it is just was so light and even the 600cc R6 engine on the bike version i rode in.. anything over 1/2 throttle in the first 2 gears was just pure tire smoke so i started googling on awd systems and i ran across people building AWD EV Drag racers and wanted to ask for a little information and insight on the EV side of powerplants. 

The Idea i had was instead of using 1 large electric motor on the rear wheel on its own. I was wandering how difficult would it be to run 3 electric motors together in syn.. so its not all over the road?? actually dont know if this is actually an issue due to some fwd cars only apply power to 1 wheel with the open differential setup.

Run FWD car hubs on all 3 wheels to keep it simple.. then run each motor directly into the axle input on the hub....


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

Have you thought about a Quasar?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quasar_%28motorcycle%29









If you do decide on a three wheeler - AWD is not necessary either drive the front wheels or the back wheel


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## storx (Nov 24, 2013)

If i was to just put electric motors on the front, Would 2 smaller ones attached at the hubs better than 1 larger one? Im kinda a noob to electric motors. I understand electronics as i have wired a garage on my own and stuff like that but no expert on propelling through electric motors.


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

Hi storx

You need to gear the electric motor - most (all) will need to run at 3 - 10 times wheel speed

That would be easy for the rear wheel - just use a chain drive

On the front the easiest would be to use a small car differential and one motor

Individual motors driving the wheels direct is some sort of Holy Grail to some people but it is a bit like eating soup with a fork - possible but ....


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## storx (Nov 24, 2013)

Dont multiple smaller motors add up on the power output?? i ask because when i read about these race dragsters.. they talk about having 3-5 electric motors propelling the vehicle...


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## storx (Nov 24, 2013)

Another feature i was talking with a friend today about is the possibility of having it go on long trips with just an attachment small trailer. The Chevy Volt is a production car that matches what i am trying to explain. The 3 cylinder engine on the chevy volt turns on when the batterys become low and charges the batterys at a rate of 3.3wh.... There are plenty of off the shelf generators that could be purchased for under $600 bucks that could supply this voltage to a charger... that charger could run a cable to the bike so it could charge the bike while your moving down the street. I would build a small frame to bolt the generator and charger directly to with some sort of protection from the elements for the charger... 

It would work just like the chevy volt but in a smaller scale as a bike.. i currently own a 7kw generator in the garage because back when mother nature turned our power off for days it was miserable.. so i picked it up and it has an 220volt 45amp output on the generator... the generator weighs around 75-80lbs i think.. so trailering it wouldnt be that much of an issue and when i ran it on a camping trip one weekend.. we ran it all day on the 5gallon tank.. i would only have to refill it after about 15 hours of use..


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## storx (Nov 24, 2013)

here is an idea i came across.. they made an housing to mount the electric motors on each wheel individually.. they use what they called an ABS ring off an automobile hub setup to gear the motor to the actual wheel.. So if i understand it correctly the electric motor has an adapter so it has the same teeth pattern of the abs ring on the back of the wheel hub and it turns the wheel similar to a starter motor turning a flywheel on a car... They enclosed it so they could run gear oil to keep gear temps down. 










They run an motor on all 4 wheels... because when they attempted to run the rear wheels with electric motors only.. the pure light weight of the vehicle made the tires spin under full amperage torque levels.. so they switched to 4 smaller motors propelling all wheels. 

here is a video of it going around the track.. they said they charge it with an FAST DC charger and it only takes 4 mins to recharge the batteries after a few runs.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cSG5gDjnEOM


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## Tomdb (Jan 28, 2013)

I would go with smaller motors, just because they are usual a better power to weight ratio.

And if one fails you could theoreticaly still get home.

The Picture you post of the AWD ev is the Delft formula student car, and its complete custom, no abs ring of sorts but high strength custom cut gears.


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

storx said:


> Dont multiple smaller motors add up on the power output?? i ask because when i read about these race dragsters.. they talk about having 3-5 electric motors propelling the vehicle...


Normally two - bolted together driving the rear wheels through a diff


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

As I said 
Individual motors driving the wheels direct is some sort of Holy Grail to some people but it is a bit like eating soup with a fork - possible but ...

It is possible - but it is also possible that I could date Jennifer Aston 

Lots of people have tried - and some very well funded people have succeeded 

If you have $1,000,000+ - then yes you may be able to make it work

If not - then use one motor and a diff for the front and one motor and a chain for the rear
(or better yet just choose one end)

The range extender trailer is possible - but will be very inefficient and really drink the fuel

The physics is simple - every time you convert energy the house takes a cut
Fuel - mechanical work
mechanical work - electricity
electricity to mechanical work
mechanical work to the road to drive you along

The Volt uses its engine to drive the wheels 
Fuel - mechanical work
mechanical work to the road to drive you along


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## storx (Nov 24, 2013)

ok, well it can be done.. VIA motors builds trucks that the gas engine NEVER touches the propulsion system mechanically...They state that it generates 17% more than used with the gas engine just idling.. which the 17% goes to postive charging of the batterys. Then there is GEN mode that makes the gas engine rev up to 3900rpms and charge the batterys in under 20mins with extra fuel consumption.. 

Also the Chevy Volt system does not apply mechanical energy when the car is in motion when the batterys are empty.. it only applys mechanical propulsion if the throttle is pressed over 75% and when mph is unable to be held in electric mode.. which according to volt drivers only happens going up mountains.. when i asked about it over there.. 

So the idea of having an extended range electric motorcycle with just the addon of an trailered small gas generator..


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

storx said:


> .........
> So the idea of having an extended range electric motorcycle with just the addon of an trailered small gas generator..


So what  The range extender trailer is not new. Alan Coccini did it 15 years ago. He had his own EV motor company and the project was funded by Toyota IIRC. I've seen a hundred newbies talk about doing it: None have done it. For you, it's a bad idea. But it's your project, so do what you want.


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## storx (Nov 24, 2013)

Thanks for something new to read about. I am looking into this because i enjoy toying with stuff and building things. I built an gas bobber years back and sold it to a fellow Marine buddy of mine when i was given orders to japan for 3 years. So its not the fact i cant build it... its the fact i am wanting to learn more so if i decide to try the electric route i understand what i am needing the first time. I understand that it may cost more to build.. yes.. got that.. but the point of doing reverse trike with EV is the idea of being able to track it still and not be a dull and boring toy. So i want to learn more about electric motorcycle racing so i can understand what kind of power i am looking for to make it competitive to a gas engine bike.. but at the same time can be driven on long distance when i really want to. Examples.. when i owned bikes i always went to the myrtle beach bike weeks and trying to drive an EV bike that far isnt logical without going into 100k of battery storage and stupid amounts of weight.. so i am looking to keep it light so it requires less of a motor to still be competitive.. thinking maybe 50-70 mile range on the batterys to cover trips back and forth with a tad of room... which shouldnt be to heavy for this size of a vehicle.. when the same vehicle with an gas engine only weighs in at 650lbs..


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

storx said:


> Thanks for something new to read about. I am looking into this because i enjoy toying with stuff and building things. I built an gas bobber years back and sold it to a fellow Marine buddy of mine when i was given orders to japan for 3 years. So its not the fact i cant build it... its the fact i am wanting to learn more so if i decide to try the electric route i understand what i am needing the first time. I understand that it may cost more to build.. yes.. got that.. but the point of doing reverse trike with EV is the idea of being able to track it still and not be a dull and boring toy. So i want to learn more about electric motorcycle racing so i can understand what kind of power i am looking for to make it competitive to a gas engine bike.. but at the same time can be driven on long distance when i really want to. Examples.. when i owned bikes i always went to the myrtle beach bike weeks and trying to drive an EV bike that far isnt logical without going into 100k of battery storage and stupid amounts of weight.. so i am looking to keep it light so it requires less of a motor to still be competitive.. thinking maybe 50-70 mile range on the batterys to cover trips back and forth with a tad of room... which shouldnt be to heavy for this size of a vehicle.. when the same vehicle with an gas engine only weighs in at 650lbs..


The bike in my avatar won the 2010 NA road racing championship, had a top speed of 160+mph, a street range of over 100 miles and weighed under 600 pounds. You can find some of my reports with a site search for TTXGP. You can convert, build your own design or buy a Brammo or Zero. None of which require AWD or gas generators.


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## storx (Nov 24, 2013)

Figuring out the angles before having medal bent...also throwing around the idea of carbon fiber wrapping the pvc pipes in theory building an all carbon fiber frame.. but looking into cost.. i have read about people building home made motorcycles out of pvc wrapped in carbon fiber in great success.. pvc adds extra rigid support in theory...


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

storx said:


> Figuring out the angles before having medal bent...also throwing around the idea of carbon fiber wrapping the pvc pipes in theory building an all carbon fiber frame.. but looking into cost.. i have read about people building home made motorcycles out of pvc wrapped in carbon fiber in great success.. pvc adds extra rigid support in theory...


pvc adds extra rigid support in theory...

Only while the resin is setting - the PVC is very soft compared to the composite so it adds nothing to the strength or stiffness 
When making very light structures some people use aluminium tubes, wrap the carbon fiber and then dissolve out the aluminium using acid

Why would you use carbon fiber?
Unless you know exactly what you are doing and use pre-pregs and an oven the difficulty in wetting out the carbon fiber means that a similar structure made using S glass is stronger for the same weight - not to mention a lot cheaper

I will expand on that - the optimum strength has just the right amount of resin (has to be epoxy for strength) 
Carbon fiber is a pain - you end up using more resin to ensure it wets out and that cancels out the extra strength of the fibers

Pre-Pregs have the resin pressed into the fabric at the factory - you keep them in a freezer before use and then you bake the finished item to cure the resin

The only reason for most people to use carbon fiber is because they think it looks good - it will end up weaker and a lot more expensive than S glass


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

A possibly better technique is folding sandwich panels

like this
http://www.autospeed.com/cms/A_112925/article.html

I would love to make my next chassis using this technique


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## storx (Nov 24, 2013)

I am still looking into it.... from my understanding of the guys who build custom bikes and recumbent bikes with the aid of PVC.. when they resin the layers of carbon wrap on the PVC.. the resin forms with the carbon and both become a single piece. 

I am not saying i am going the carbon fiber route.. it was a option because after the frame is done.. it can be coated with a clear layer to gloss the carbonfiber and then you are able to skip the painting of the frame and body parts.. it may cost more overall.. but the last bike i built from scratch.. to get a decent paint job from a reputable shop it was over $1,000 bucks... if i brought it to them in peaces.. i tried the whole powder-coating..... wasnt to happy with it.. created a ton of fitment issues and the coating didnt last as long as i thought it would for the price...


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

_when they resin the layers of carbon wrap on the PVC.. the resin forms with the carbon and both become a single piece.

_Not sure how well the resin will bond to PVC
But even it it does the effect is still the same
The composite is massively stiffer than the PVC so the PVC bears none of the load

Imagine you have a steel bar - now glue a rubber band on top of it - how much stiffness have you added to the steel bar?The PVC core is useful at the construction stage - after that its just extra weight


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## storx (Nov 24, 2013)

I have been doing research on motors and batteries.. Can someone inform me what is the drawback of building an battery pack out of the small AA size cells?? reason i am asking is because i was thinking of possibly building the pack out of AA cells and group them up and stack them inside the steel tubing interior.. so they are protected from the elements and run a small liquid cooled pump... keeping them cool..


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

storx said:


> Can someone inform me what is the drawback of building an battery pack out of the small AA size cells??


In the Lithium cells, look for the 18650 size. Tesla uses thousands of them in their batteries, like 6000 to 10,000 each. I built a MC pack using 2080 of them. It's a bitch unless you know a couple of robots who will help you


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## storx (Nov 24, 2013)

where did you purchase your batteries from? I am thinkinging i can fit 9 inside the pipe stacked with room for coolant flow around them.. and through them.. then i could weld the pipes into flat stock allowing the large tubes to be used as a battery storage and structural... saving space in other areas...


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

storx said:


> where did you purchase your batteries from? ...


I didn't buy them; I just built the sucker  But the 18650 Lithium cell is practically a commodity. Easy to find the good, the bad and the ugly. Do your research. Lots of guys use them for ebikes. Check out endless-sphere.com.


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