# Alice in EVland...



## major (Apr 4, 2008)

Tesseract said:


> http://seekingalpha.com/article/226591-alice-in-evland-6-impossible-things-i-believe?source=yahoo
> 
> Found this while trawling around the interwebz... Yet another EV skeptic- is he more right than wrong? Using funny math? Dunno, but he brings an interesting perspective.


Hi Tess,

Yeah, interesting opinion from that guy. He makes 6 points; here are six answers from maj.

#1) Zero emissions are possible with BEV's which recharge from nonpolluting generation, like solar or wind. And as our grid heads more towards renewables, recharging BEVs from the grid gets better in this regard. Does the ICE fleet do this?

#2) He uses your funny math by comparing a Prius mpg to fleet average. And the point becomes irrelevant for a BEV charged from renewables.

#3) He uses scare tactics. Look at the real numbers for raw material availability. There is plenty of iron, copper, aluminum and lithium for a world fleet of BEVs for the next several centuries.

#4) Safety is a concern for the battery. You think the automotive OEMs don't know that. Using a cargo incident where there was no battery monitoring system in place is again a scare tactic. And, is not placing your child's safety seat on top of 15 gallons of gasoline a little more risky?

#5) Why is assured recycling much different for a BEV than your ICE? Oh yeah, a little more copper. That makes it more likely. And a few pounds of Lithium. I got to say, I don't know. It's cheap enough now, maybe it will go to the landfill. So what? And is all that carbon from the ICE cars being recycled? Yeah, maybe in a million years.

#6) Economic payback. Yeah o.k. He's got me there. Like the quote from Kurt Vonnegut. "We could have saved the planet, but we were too cheap".

I guess I'll keep my day job.

major


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## rillip3 (Jun 19, 2009)

Kind of a boring article really. He brings up all the usual points naysayers do. In short, it boils down to: EVs aren't a silver bullet for the environment or consumers, so there's no point in pursuing them at all. It completely ignores the possibilities of future development, niche markets, and alternative rewards. It's a all-things-being-equal comparison, but completely ignores the fact that not all things are equal in his equation.


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## Crash (Oct 20, 2009)

major said:


> Hi Tess,
> 
> Yeah, interesting opinion from that guy. He makes 6 points; here are six answers from maj.
> 
> ...


AMEN!

Well said... Now copy/paste that into the comments on that article page!


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

Good points major.

The only thing that will keep rearing up will be the emissions. Even with 'clean' electricity there is still the embedded environmental costs of production but that pretty much applies to everything humans make.

I'd say that people who write these articles should spend an equivelent amount of time finding negatives to ICE vehicle production and use and then see how it stacks up in comparison.


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

Crash said:


> Well said... Now copy/paste that into the comments on that article page!


O.K. I did that. Comment #64 under code name mjr. Pretty tricky 

I didn't read any of the other 63 comments to Mr. Petersen's fairy tale, but skimming down that list, I think most support his position  

Regards,

major (mjr)


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## Crash (Oct 20, 2009)

Good times.. Give it 3 days and there will 100 comments on yours. Watch.


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## tomofreno (Mar 3, 2009)

The Prius is the “gold standard of vehicle electrification”? 
To who?


“3 grams per mile LESS than an electric car plugged into the average US utility”. 
Not from the couple studies I’ve read. They claimed ev’s charged with electric exclusively from coal plants were slightly less polluting. Haven’t done the calculation myself though, results would depend on the coal plant technology. In the U.S. overall, coal plants supply a bit less than half the power I think. 



“The Toyota Prius uses 1.3 kWh of batteries to slash fuel consumption by 50%”. 
No it doesn’t. The Toyota Echo (same chassis and body as the early Prius) actually gets better mileage on a freeway.


“It is impossible for more than a handful of politically favored elites to use hundreds of kilograms of highly refined and processed metals to reduce their personal consumption of oil, which is produced at a rate of 616 kilograms per person.” 
There are not hundreds of kilograms of lithium in the batteries if that is what he is referring to. Just look at the formula, LiFePO4, and consider the molecular weights. Or he may be making the typical generalization that all electric vehicles use motors with rotors made of rare earth magnets. He might also point out that there is not enough oil in the earth to produce it at a rate of 616 kg/person indefinitely. What about all those ICE vehicles with "highly refined and processed metals"?


“At the same time, Federal regulators are focused on a recent 747 crash in Dubai that was caused by spontaneous ignition of lithium-ion batteries during shipment.” 
Were those LiFePO4 cells, lithium cobalt…? Ahh, all those lithium cells are the same.


“However, nobody has been able to demonstrate a cost-effective lithium-ion battery recycling process.” 
That is because lithium carbonate is so cheap (only a small part of cell cost). Diyelectric car news recently reported a Japanese company was starting a recycling operation.


“The primary recoverable materials are steel, aluminum, copper and some rare metals.” 
Rare metals in LiFePO4 cells? Where is the steel?


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## Crash (Oct 20, 2009)

All good points, but people with their heads up their butts too far to see what's really going on will additionally lack the ability to research things as well...

In general, they'll make opinionated statements as if they're facts (like what I just did) and state facts as if they're opinions. For example: "A Prius pollutes less than an electric car. Some say it's possible that solar panels on roof could reduce pollution." Both of these are ass-backwards. But people against the alternative fuel movement would definitely say something this retarded.

Another BOLD move on their part is that they say things that are obviously made up on the spot. And the scare tactics as Major described are right on. That's what these kinds of guys do. Then they get on the internet like everyone else who thinks people should listen to their rambling non-sense and blog about things they've heard down the grape vine and get all their info either wrong or twisted enough to be considered wrong.

These A-holes need to get off their soap boxes. If they think that BEVs aren't the solution they're looking for, they should stop complaining about it and do something other than crying all over the internet about their obvious lack of knowledge in the BEV department.


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

major said:


> O.K. I did that. Comment #64 under code name mjr.


O.K. That didn't accomplish much. So I called the guy an idiot (Which I almost always refrain from doing in writing). Didn't get any response either.


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## Crash (Oct 20, 2009)

What can you do? Perhaps he doesn't even read the responses. He might just be a set-it and forget-it type of guy making BS claims and then running from the fight.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Actually he may be busy responding to my comments on his previous article 
http://seekingalpha.com/article/225208-the-cruel-realities-of-ev-range


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## Crash (Oct 20, 2009)

Wow... This guy really knows nothing. Didn't he state he's a lawyer? So doesn't he have a practice to run rather than writing all these blogs or is he just as bad at his job as he is with getting EV info correct?

Seriously, from what he's saying, it sounds like he was never breast fed.


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## RE Farmer (Aug 8, 2009)

As one in my local EV club says ...

"Those who say EVs cannot be built should not interupt the person driving one."
--Eduard de Garay--


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

RE Farmer said:


> As one in my local EV club says ...
> 
> "Those who say EVs cannot be built should not interupt the person driving one."
> --Eduard de Garay--


Thats a good way to look at it. I don't really find doubters of electric cars offensive even if I don't agree with everything they say. For me it comes down to a personal choice. They are allowed to make theirs, I am allowed to make mine.


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## Crash (Oct 20, 2009)

Well, I have to say it _does_ bug me. Electric cars aren't an opinion. They are indeed a fact. They _do_ work. To me someone saying an electric car is impossible is like them saying gravity doesn't exist and the world is flat.

Ignorance has always been one of my biggest my pet peeve. (Following people in America who pronounce the 't' in 'often'. LOL)


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

To be fair he doesn't suggest that EV's don't work, as in function perfectly well. His claim is that from an investment perspective, and for long term wide spread adoption, they won't pan out. He seems to base most of his arguments on costs and resource scarcity. Where he seems to miss the big picture is the resources saved by not building an ICE and it's components and by not refining, transporting, and burning gas and diesel. He also doesn't seem to grasp the potential for cost reduction with increased volume.


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## Crash (Oct 20, 2009)

Well, unless he's going to take everything into account, there is NO being fair. He publicly suggests EVs not being a viable solution without taking into account all the variables. That's like me saying that gasoline powered cars are not a viable solution because they pollute and gasoline won't be around forever. LOL


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