# GE 13inch DC Motor pics



## alvin (Jul 26, 2008)

Welcome to the forum.

I don't have that motor but I do have an 11" GE from a Hyster lift. 250lbs.

It is in a Ford Ranger direct to transmission (no clutch).The pack voltage has been as high as 144 volt nominal. I don't think I have gone over 400 motor amps.

It looks like it may be some extra trouble to connect your motor to the transmission.


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

Hi
I'm running an 11 inch motor - direct drive to a Subaru diff

http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forum...dubious-device-44370p15.html?highlight=duncan

I'm running a Paul & Sabrina Controller - I have it set to 1200 amps and my battery pack is fully charged at 340 V

You have a brake on one end of that motor
My motor had the same splines on each end of the drive shaft
So I used the part that connected to the brake - with a simple disc adapter to bolt onto a normal prop-shaft UJ - works a treat!


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## Revoltmotorworks (Feb 9, 2018)

Thanks for the useful info. It’s good to know you have run it up to 144volts. From what I have read on here is that these motors can take some serious amps, I’m going to go with a 1000 amp peak controller, and slowly experiment with what works for this motor. From what I’ve seen there are controllers that can adjust with voltages ranging from 48-144v for example and that is what I’d like to use.

How does your Ranger accelerate from a stop? Does it have a pretty good pull with 400amps at a certain voltage you run it at? It seems to me that these motors must put out a load of torque at a low rpm. Also how does it run at highway speed? Like at what motor rpm at 55mph and what amperage/voltage does it like at that speed?


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## Revoltmotorworks (Feb 9, 2018)

Hey Duncan thanks for the link! That looks like a great project. That is great to know I can couple a U joint on one of the motor shafts.
Did you get your car going yet? I looks like your setup will put out a load of torque. I want to build a fun cruiser street car with about 50 miles of range and a ton of torque for 1/4mile drag racing for fun.


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

Hi
I have been driving my "Device" for nearly five years - initially with Headway cells and for the last year and a half with Chevy Volt cells

It's really good for 1/8th mile drags - but I'm hitting 85 mph at the end of 1/8th and I think it will blow up before the end of 1/4 mile 

Page 21 of my thread has a link to my YouTube videos 

I assume that your Nova is one of the old RWD ones? 

That should make a superb cruiser with that motor 

BUT

You may be limited in top speed - as you will be limited in motor RPM - I hope Major will speak up and tell us just how fast you can spin that motor


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

Hi Dunc,

First off, he's got to do something with the Drive End (DE) bearing. Replacing it with a sealed bearing is likely easiest. Use high temp seals and grease.

RPM. Depends on balance. Armature components and construction should be good for 5kRPM. Recommend normal operation to 2500 with max of 4kRPM.

Have that bearing properly installed and balance checked. 

Regards,

major


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## Revoltmotorworks (Feb 9, 2018)

Thanks Guys for the advice. Duncan the videos look like you are having a good succes with your build! Car looks fast on the track. 

Major I will do the sealed bearing as well. I was wondering is that a requirement to run at 2500-4000rpm continuous operation? The open bearing assembly was designed for lower continued rpm use I take it? 

Also the Nova is a 1975 with a stripped out interior and weighs just under 3000lbs. It has a built Chevy 350 in it that will be taken out and stored but it also has a TH350 automatic trans. On the EV west website it shows them using the Powerglide trans for their conversions because it is a stout unit. I know these motors put out much more torque than my TH350 can handle but has anyone had succes with coupling to this trans? 

Also do you think that if this motor is coupled to the trans I will be able to use the trans ability to shift gears to keep motor rpm around 2500 rpm while achieving highway speeds? I’d like to use the trans so I can have a higher top speed and reverse. I know direct drive is stronger but what is he general consensus on using a trans? Thanks everybody


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

In the forklift, the gearbox oil lubed the open DE bearing. There is a shaft seal behind the bearing. When you have a double sealed permanently lubed bearing installed you can eliminate the shaft seal. Less common is a single side sealed bearing. But I doubt they'd rely on that to keep gearbox oil out of the motor.

major


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

Hi Blake
Transmissions basically go downwards - they make the motor spin faster!

In most (not sure about autos) of the old gearboxes top gear was 1:1 - straight through

Which is what you get if you throw away the trans and go direct drive!

A big advantage of direct drive is that you can put the motor where the gearbox would have gone and leave the whole engine bay for the batteries


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## piotrsko (Dec 9, 2007)

Back in '75 turbo hydro trannies were weak. That may have changed as shown in the racing catalogs. You do need to think about better diff gearing since your ratio is around 2.5:1.


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

piotrsko said:


> Back in '75 turbo hydro trannies were weak. That may have changed as shown in the racing catalogs.


There have been many Turbo Hydramatic transmissions, but the reliability disaster of that era was the THM 200. Fortunately, that's not what Blake has.


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

Duncan said:


> Transmissions basically go downwards - they make the motor spin faster!
> 
> In most (not sure about autos) of the old gearboxes top gear was 1:1 - straight through


Yes, most transmission ratios are reduction gears (output lower than input). Modern transmissions typically have one or more overdrive gears (output faster than input), but a THM 350 (and any Turbo Hydramatic before the the 4-speeds of the early 1980's) has a 1:1 top gear. In these traditional automatics, in this direct gear the power isn't going through any gears at all, but lots of gears used for other ratios are still spinning.



Duncan said:


> Which is what you get if you throw away the trans and go direct drive!


Yes, but keeping the transmission allows higher motor speed and thus more torque to the wheels at low road speeds. If that reduction gearing is not needed, I agree that a transmission is pointless.


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

Hi Blake
If piotrsko is right then you probably have a good final drive for that large motor

Your car is about 40% heavier than mine but I suspect that you won't have a 55% rear weight distribution 
3000 lbs = 1363 kg - with 40% on the back wheels you will have 545 kg on your back wheels

I have 900 kg (with me in it) - 55% on the back wheels that is 495 kg on the back wheels

My diff is 4.1:1 - yours is 2.5:1 - so I have 60% more torque

BUT you have a larger motor so you will get more torque per amp

I suspect that with 1200 Amps and direct drive you will be able to spin your rear tyres - unless you buy super sticky tyres 

I normally drive mine with the 1200 amps reduced to 550 Amps - 1200 amps is just a bit too exciting on the road

Major thinks that I can get to 6000 rpm before my motor explodes - 50% higher than yours 
So if you have a 2.5:1 diff which is 64% higher than my 4.1:1 - it about cancels out!

My top speed (before motor blowup) will be about 100 mph - so you should be about the same - bit higher


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

Revoltmotorworks said:


> Also do you think that if this motor is coupled to the trans I will be able to use the trans ability to shift gears to keep motor rpm around 2500 rpm while achieving highway speeds? I’d like to use the trans so I can have a higher top speed and reverse.


Cars back then came with a lot of configuration options, and anything could have been done in the past four decades, but the stock tire was something like an FR78-14, which was about the size of a P205/75R14, which is about 26.5" tall and so turns about 800 revolutions per mile. That means at 60 mph the tire and wheel are turning at 800 rpm. although you probably want and have something wider and lower profile than this, such as a 235/60R15, as long as the overall diameter is the same the gearing situation is the same.

A typical final drive ratio for a 350 V8 1975 Nova would be 2.73:1, although apparently there were optional 2.56:1 and 3.08:1 ratios (according to the GM info kit), and again the axle currently in the car could be just about anything. With a 2.73:1 ring and pinion, the propeller shaft (driveshaft) speed with 800 rpm wheel speed would be about 2200 rpm.

You don't need any gearing other than the final drive (so, you don't need a transmission) to get a reasonable motor rotational speed at highway road speed, if you're looking for 2500 rpm at some highway speed.

Reverse is another issue entirely...


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

Duncan said:


> ...
> My diff is 4.1:1 - yours is 2.5:1 - so I have 60% more torque
> 
> BUT you have a larger motor so you will get more torque per amp
> ...


All good, except that the cars likely use different tires sizes as well, changing the relationship of motor speed to road speed, and of motor torque to accelerating force.
Note: torque = force * distance, so accelerating force = torque / tire rolling radius

I guessed the Nova as having about 26.5" (673 mm) tall tires.
Duncan, what's on the Device?
Blake, what are your actual tire size and final drive ratio?


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## Revoltmotorworks (Feb 9, 2018)

Hi Guys lots of useful info and I appreciate the input. Attached is a photo.
The car is street rod sleeper with a built up 375hp Chev 350in it that puts out about 400ft lbs of torque.

My rear axle is a GM 10 bolt 8.5in,(there are a few variations of this axle and the one I have is the stronger type) welded 3.08s on 26.5x10 Hossier DOT slicks, it’s setup for a mix between a fun street car that goes to strip but also has enough gear to drive 60mph at reasonable rpm. 

I’m also a mechanic so it’s no problem putting in a GM 12 Bolt or Ford 9” if I blow this 10 bolt off the back of the car. The TH350 In it is a pretty stout unit but this Monster motor defiantly has the torque to shear off input shafts, grenade the internals if one cranked up the juice and let it rip. 

One of my main goals is to go blow the doors off unsuspecting ICE muscle cars at the track with my ELECTRO NOVA! Would be pretty cool to keep the CG centered and to the rear so it could do wheelies. Anyways gotta dream right? 

I like the sound of Direct drive and I’m sure it is the best way to go, I will consider it. How much more complicated is it to setup a reverse for this motor?


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## Revoltmotorworks (Feb 9, 2018)

Also on a side note I just saw that Manzanita micro the makers of Zilla is located right near me. It looks like they have good batteries too. Is there an EV club in the Washington area or some members around who I could buy some parts off of or maybe get some help from? This project is happening one way or another


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

Hi
Reverse is a bit more complex
You will have four terminals of the motor
Two for the Brushes that go to the armature and two for the field coils

To go backwards you need to reverse one pair! - reversing the whole things means you still go forwrds

To do that you need a reversing contactor - I'm using one off a forklift

To operate that motor at high speeds (the forklift or whatever it came out of would use about 1400rpm) you need to advance the brush timing
Unfortunately that means that the brush timing will be completely wrong in reverse - NOT a problem is you are just reversing 
But if you want to blast backwards in an autotest it could be an issue especially as you will have the same power and speed available backwards as forwards

It's great fun being able to burn off the supercharged V8's


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## Bird of Prey (Aug 24, 2016)

I am trying to find one that is a 13"diameter motor or two if I can . Try a 4.50-1 LSD if you can . Or get a locker if you have too . That car can be striped to under 2900 Lbs easy . The best part is you don't need to add metal to your car like the small cars do to keep and or make it stronger .


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

Hi ekthor
With only 120v you won't get much power out of that beast !

And do you have a 1400 amp 400v Kelly controller cheaper than a Paul @ Sabrina?


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

Hi
I have done this - at 130v I had a top speed of 59 mph - that was 100% PWM

The OP expects just a wee bit more out of his vehicle!


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

And my very efficient device (except for the aerodynamics) with an 11 inch motor would still only do 59 mph with 130v

I am willing to believe that kelly controllers no longer deserve their old reputation as boat anchors but you are still wrong about the voltage that the OP will need for his 13 inch motor 

I suspect that the OP and I expect something just a tiny bit different from our vehicles than you seem to want

My device is used on the track as well as on the road


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

Hey Dunc,

Find it strange that ekthor is bragging about his newfound "quality" Kellies being able to operate up to 60 or 70% of their rating, or having to return it only twice? Looks to me like he is using this thread to sell stuff. And his insistence that larger motors suck more amps (meaning less efficient therefore less range), to me, indicates misunderstanding and misapplication, not a reasonable characterization of electrical machinery.

So readers beware. Mr. ekthor offers some valuable experience but loads it with ulterior motives (sales) and opinions, some of which I find questionable.

Regards,

major


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

ekthor said:


> So you have HUGE torque but SLOW RPMs with that 13" motor beast, you need a gear AMPLIFIER, as opposed to a gear reductor like the built-in gear reductor every VW Acapulco or "Safari" has, (as we know it here in Mexico), I haven't seen your EV specs but certainly if there is a transmission, you have to skip 1st and 2nd gear from 0 RPM all the time, you need to start in 3rd gear.


The motor in Duncan's Device drives the input of the final drive (differential) without additional gearing; it runs as if it had a traditional transmission and was always in the direct (1:1) gear.

I find it strange, at the very least, to declare another builder's design to be faulty without even knowing what the design is.

Also, overdrive or step-up gearing is not an "amplifier", any more than reduction gearing is an attenuator.



ekthor said:


> Why AMD stopped their DC Series Motor production remains a mystery to me, I assume they followed the absurd argument of the Automotive Industry "DC Series Wound motors are obsolete because they are less than 90% efficient, they do not offer regen and they need maintenance" so everyone is moving to AC or PM rare earth reluctant motors for twice or trice the cost... to get 8% more efficiency? Absurd!


If you don't understand that doubling the cost of one component is well worth the expense for substantially greater efficiency and avoiding maintenance (and failures), then you don't understand the automotive industry at all.



ekthor said:


> So far, in EvAlbum AMD/Advanced DC Motor is "the most popular motor used for conversions." It's Not the HPEVS AC50, not the Warp 9, it is the AMD/Advanced DC 9" motor.


It shouldn't be surprising that a historical collection of do-it-yourself projects by people who can't afford current technology is dominated by old forklift truck motors, many with a new label on them , or that people assembling vehicles with extremely limited development resources have most often chosen the simplest design. 



ekthor said:


> And THE most popular controller (because I believe it was the first is the OLD and OBSOLETE CURTIS), Curtis is using the same old technology since the 90's (perhaps the 80s, not sure)...


Now that's bizarre: dismissing modern motor technology as absurd (in favour of motor design from over a century ago), but attacking a newer controller technology as old and obsolete.


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

Hi ekthor,

No need to go thin skin. I'm OK with the mention of product offering provided Duncan (admin) is also and you don't get carried away. And opinions are welcome AFAIK. Just don't get upset when you see differing opinions. 

Regards,

major


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

Look at a cycle analyst from Grim Technology in Canada. Mainly for bikes but I used several on competition eGoKarts. That was CA version 2. You can get data logger opt and even gps.


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## Revoltmotorworks (Feb 9, 2018)

Lots of good useful info here and I do appreciate the ranges of both opinions and methodology in which you guys have gone about putting your projects together. The more information I have before putting things together and buying things the better. 

I will be using this motor, I do understand there are many more options that would be better suited for both performance and range but it’s what I have and I want it to work for the fun of doing it.

I’m glad to hear there is a more budget friendly motor controller available and I’ll be sure to check out the Kelly products for sure. 

I’m searching for reasonably priced battery’s and a motor controller at this point so if anybody has a good deal to be had let me know.

Thanks


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## ev99saturn (May 5, 2009)

Hi Blake,

Nice find on the 13" GE!

I'm running an 11" GE forklift motor in a light car for both street and drag strip. My motor has been modified to handle more power than nameplate specs, and is working very well at 200 motor volts and 2000A. 

The 13" can certainly make more power than the 11", and could power that Nova very nicely. Look at the Rocket Bike which also used a 13" GE motor, but, it was heavily modified and driven to high voltage and current using a Zilla 4k controller.

Your *stock* 13" GE can probably take up to 170V and maybe 2000A for a few seconds, but that may be pushing it.

The Z1k with a 144V pack would be max of 192 battery hp, and with voltage sag under full load, that would likely drop to 155 hp or so. You might not be satisfied with the drag strip performance.

If you are looking for much better performance at the track, you will want more voltage and amps. Get as much as you can afford. i.e. if you double pack voltage to say 288 and go to a Z2k, it would make 500+ battery hp and your Nova will be very quick.

Looking at the pictures of your motor, the brushes may be worn down enough to consider replacement. A proper brush and comm break-in would then be needed as well as blowing out all of the old (and break-in!) dust in the motor. As you suggest, increasing motor timing will help with higher RPMs. 

Regarding highway speeds and motor rpm, it largely depends on gear ratio you choose for the rear end. My car is direct drive with a 2.73 rear end, at 55 mph it's running below 2000 rpm. The 11" GE has enough torque so even at this "overdrive" ratio, the car has traction problems below about 25 mph. 

Your 13" can produce considerably more torque.


Wayne


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## Revoltmotorworks (Feb 9, 2018)

Thanks for the input Wayne. It looks like you have the setup and performance characteristics that I’m looking for. 
To get your 288 volts and decent range how many battery’s are you running? I’m looking at getting the LiFePo4 battery’s and before I calculate out everything for my battery pack I just wanted to hear some real world experience as far as range and performance that you are getting.

Also which car are you running your setup in? And are you direct drive? I’m considering that but am concerned that setting up reverse on the DC motor is more trouble than it’s worth. Seriously considering fabricating an adapter plate for my trans and going that route.
Thanks!


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## ev99saturn (May 5, 2009)

My battery pack is a 4P84S pack of A123 pouch cells and is 21kWh in size. The Zilla log data says it's making 542 battery hp, the BMS says its more. The car is a replica of a '65 Cobra and weighs about 2140 lbs without driver. 

If driven gently, it can go more than 60 miles on a charge, although I don't push it that far, usually limiting drives to 40-50 miles.

It's set up as direct drive currently, but I'm planning to add a Lenco 2 speed to improve bottom end punch. It previously had a modified Powerglide, but I couldn't keep low gear in it, due to the inability to create enough transmission fluid pressure and flow volume with an external pump. It takes at least 200 psi to lock up the clutches sufficiently, otherwise they fry after 50-75 hard launches. The Lenco won't (shouldn't ?!) have that problem.

If you are going to use a transmission, make sure you have a good plan to provide fluid pressure. The transmission's internal pump doesn't make any pressure when the motor isn't spinning. You can get away with lower pressure (maybe 140psi) if you don't plan to nail it hard from a stop.

Your 13" GE is a torque monster, plan accordingly. My 11" GE was able to twist the OEM input shaft on the Powerglide.

Regarding performance, with direct drive it's doing 0-60 mph in 3.0 seconds. With the low gear from the Powerglide, or Lenco, it is definitely quicker.


For reversing the motor, it's easy to do with 4 contactors. I can provide a diagram for this if you are interested.

Wayne


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## Revoltmotorworks (Feb 9, 2018)

Hi Wayne and everybody else on this thread. Would you be able to send me a diagram of the reverse contactor setup. Also what contactors are you using and where did you get them from? I’m getting moving on the project and that would be a big help!


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## ev99saturn (May 5, 2009)

Here is a diagram and a picture showing my reversing contactor setup. 

I'm using Gigavac contactors for the reversing contactors, Kilovac EV200 is another good choice. For the main contactor, a Kilovac Bubba is used as it's better suited to break high current in an emergency. 

The top of the Bubba is seen in the picture between the Zilla and the Hairball. The forward/reverse DPDT relay is attached to the side of the Hairball enclosure, and controlled by a switch on the dashboard.




Revoltmotorworks said:


> Hi Wayne and everybody else on this thread. Would you be able to send me a diagram of the reverse contactor setup. Also what contactors are you using and where did you get them from? I’m getting moving on the project and that would be a big help!


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## e^2 (Jul 22, 2017)

If torque is a concern, why not current limit it to avoid the extra stress on batteries and driveline?


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## Revoltmotorworks (Feb 9, 2018)

Does anybody know where to find a drive coupler for this motor? I’m also in the process of trying to figure out what trans is the easiest to use. Also a direct driveshaft yoke would work but where an I buy one? The th350 thats In it might be more trouble to connect to than its worth. I know EV west uses the power glide setup which works well. Thanks


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## Revoltmotorworks (Feb 9, 2018)

Thanks for the photos!


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## ByronDonald (Feb 19, 2020)

Hi....The bobber as a concept is cool, and well suited for electrification. But recreating the cylinders/cylinder tops cooling fins? Ok, I guess if you are going to run a liquid cooled motor or controller that could work as a radiator replacement, not as efficient as a radiator but it could still work. As long as you don't run liquid cooling, I think you are sinking countless hours on recreating something that might not be that cool after all when bike is all done and ready. All that time and machining into something that does nothing, has no function,adds nothing to performance, or in any way really. I would frankly just drop the idea of replicating the engine fins, after all you do an electric bobber. Don't be shamed by that.


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