# [EVDL] EV dissing in media



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

I see fairly regular "dissing" of EV's in media. Washington Post over last =
few years for instance. "SeekingAlpha" stock traders, etc etc.

Is this a reasonable conjecture as to reason
Nissan Leaf, or any EV for that matter
2012-2017 (5 years) use $1,650 electricity @ 11cents/KwH for 60,000 miles
25mpg car with avg reg gas @ $5.50 $13,200
save ~ $11,000+ in fuel cost and get $7,500 tax credit

with 1,000,000 EV's by 2015 (hopefully) this will cost Oil companies ~$10-1=
2 BILLION in lost revenue and climbing as EV penetration continues in marke=
ts by 2017 and double that by 2020.

are my figures reasonable?
(I base gas prices on historical data from EIA)
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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Maybe. A couple of places people might pick at it, and some other comments.

1. You are assuming $5.50 per gallon average over the next 5 years. That
could be true, but is a future prediction. Today, gas in this area is about
$3.15 per gallon. You could probably convince people gas will cost at least
as much as today over the next 5 years, but they might argue about whether
$5.50 per gallon is accurate. Especially when you're using today's
electricity cost and not a future cost for that.

2. Some people may not view the tax credit as a "savings" or even a good
thing. If they are not EV drivers, they may just view it as a transfer of
money from their pocket to yours.

3. You haven't amortized battery life. If the batteries are expected to
last the life of the car, that might be a reasonable omission. For drivers
of lead-acid batteries in home-built conversions, that is a key factor that
has to be considered.

4. You haven't added in differences in maintenance. Maintenance won't go
to zero, but you will at least eliminate 15-20 oil changes and a tuneup or
two that the gas car will require. I would also argue less brake wear due
to regen. Neither one should require a transmission rebuild in 60K miles,
but the chances are likely that the gas car might need one before the
electric car. That should be way over 120K miles for either one.

5. You didn't state it, but it looks like you're assuming 4 miles per kWh.
That seems reasonable for a Leaf-sized vehicle.

Mike

> -----Original Message-----
> From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On
> Behalf Of robert winfield
> Sent: Thursday, February 02, 2012 2:54 PM
> To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
> Subject: [EVDL] EV dissing in media
> 
> I see fairly regular "dissing" of EV's in media. Washington Post over last
few
> years for instance. "SeekingAlpha" stock traders, etc etc.
> 
> Is this a reasonable conjecture as to reason Nissan Leaf, or any EV for
that
> matter
> 2012-2017 (5 years) use $1,650 electricity @ 11cents/KwH for 60,000 miles
> 25mpg car with avg reg gas @ $5.50 $13,200 save ~ $11,000+ in fuel cost
and
> get $7,500 tax credit
> 
> with 1,000,000 EV's by 2015 (hopefully) this will cost Oil companies
~$10-12
> BILLION in lost revenue and climbing as EV penetration continues in
markets
> by 2017 and double that by 2020.
> 
> are my figures reasonable?
> (I base gas prices on historical data from EIA)
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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> On 3 Feb 2012 at 16:08, Lee Hart wrote:
> 
> > Now... imagine what would happen if you put today's lithium batteries in a
> > true purpose-built EV like the Impact, EV1, or Sunrise.
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Lensman wrote:
> >
> > Nissan Leaf:
> > battery pack li-ion 24 kWh
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Willie McKemie <[email protected]> wrote:
> > On Fri, Feb 03, 2012 at 01:37:21PM -0600, Lensman wrote:
> >> Nissan Leaf:
> >> battery pack li-ion 24 kWh
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> David Rees wrote:
> 
> Thanks for the information!
> 
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

>> These are good "back of the envelope" type calculations. However, you
>> are assuming that all of the battery pack capacity is being used to get
>> the quoted range. That's generally not the case.



> Lensman wrote:
> > No, actually I'm using what people have reported for real-world driving
> > ranges.
> 
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Lensman wrote:
> > for any EV that was manufactured and sold in quantity, including the
> > GM EV1, you can easily find quotes like this:
> > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Clearly that author was not aware of, or forgot about, the EV-1 upon writing that. I had the pleasure of renting and driving EV-1s about 500 miles. You used to be able to rent them at the LAX airport.

How could you not call the world's more aerodynamic production car sleek?

How could you call 0 to 60 in around 7 seconds slow? I had great fun dusting off every car I met at a traffic light. My favorite one was lining up with a brand new Lexus, tinted windows, aftermarket low profile tires, and the girlfriend in the right seat. Boy was he mad he couldn't keep up!

It was hardly a punishment car. I absolutely loved driving it. No other car I have ever driven got me thumbs up on the freeway, people asking how I liked it from their cars at intersections, or talking about it in parking lots. I gave rides to about 10 people, they were all quite impressed.


Oh yeah, it did all this on lead acid! I went 68 miles on a charge on lead acid.

Alas I can't get an EV-1 (although I fantasize about getting an EV-1 when a University is "done" with theirs), so I'm converting a Porsche to electric power for 1/5 the cost of a Tesla sports car.



________________________________
From: Lensman <[email protected]>
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <[email protected]> 
Sent: Friday, February 3, 2012 11:06 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] EV dissing in media

... But for any EV that was manufactured and sold in quantity, including the GM EV1, you can easily find quotes like this:
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Tesla Motors was the first company to create a "green" car that is NOT a slow, ugly punishment car, but a sleek, fast sports car.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
source: http://gm-volt.com/forum/showthread.php?3876-WSJ-The-Surge-in-Electric-Vehicles ...
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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Lensman <[email protected]> wrote:
> > On 2/4/2012 1:58 AM, Lee Hart wrote:
> >
> >>>> Cd depends on shape, not size.
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Lensman wrote:
> 
> > Clearly this is a subject upon which there is a noticeable lack of
> > agreement. The cars you cite are what have traditionally been called
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

<<<< I'm sure that there are many things I have to learn about EVs.

And maybe Lee has a thing or two to learn from me, if he doesn't know
that EVs using AC motors is a fairly recent development.>>>>

He most certainly does. I recommend you read the archives for his 
wisdom before you make ill-informed comments.

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Someone dissing Lee? 
An FYI, If there were question made as to needing a new God, We on the EVDL
would probably promote Lee Hart to the position. Just
saying.................



Mark 


-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf
Of [email protected]
Sent: Sunday, February 05, 2012 3:58 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [EVDL] EV dissing in media

<<<< I'm sure that there are many things I have to learn about EVs.

And maybe Lee has a thing or two to learn from me, if he doesn't know
that EVs using AC motors is a fairly recent development.>>>>

He most certainly does. I recommend you read the archives for his 
wisdom before you make ill-informed comments.

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

the grey lensman wrote -

> I'm sure that there are many things I have to learn about EVs.

Very true... I agree with you 100%... (LOL)

> And maybe Lee has a thing or two to learn from me, if he doesn't know
> that EVs using AC motors is a fairly recent development.

So far you haven't taught me one thing that I didn't already know, and if you didn't teach me
anything, you certainly didn't even come close to contributing to Lee's knowledge...

> Details here, for anyone who's interested:
> http://www1.eere.energy.gov/vehiclesandfuels/avta/light_duty/fsev/fsev_ev_power.html
>
> A pertinent quote:
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> Past electric vehicles used a dc motor/controller system because they
> operate off the battery current without complex electronics. The dc
> motor/controller system is still used today on some electric vehicles to
> keep the cost down. However, with the advent of better and less
> expensive electronics, a large number of today's electric vehicles are
> using ac motor/controller systems because of their improved motor
> efficiency and lighter weight.
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>

Hmmm, what is new on that page!!! I daresay that the first *modern* EV's used AC motors... and we
all know what happened to one of them... and I do mean ALL of us on this list.

There is nothing new on that link that really communicates any information about EV's that would
benefit this group.

And if you look at the bottom of the page it states "Content Last Updated: 03/02/2009", so besides 
giving us no new information, you are providing a link to information dated 2009...

Not very helpful or useful.

Regards,
Rush Dougherty
www.TucsonEV.com

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Lensman wrote:
> > And maybe Lee has a thing or two to learn from me, if he doesn't know
> > that EVs using AC motors is a fairly recent development.
> 
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Mark Grasser wrote
> 
> 
> I suggest you ask questions and then listen and lurk. When you make
> comments
> that rival what people say, especially people that have been electrical
> engineers all their lives and have been driving EVs since, I am guessing,
> before you were born, well it isn't going to shine well.
> 
> Mark
> 

I'm definitely not taking sides here but I doubt someone with a nickname
from a science fiction series that dates to the 1930's is a spring chicken.

Regards,
John Nicholson
www.evalbum.com/2672

--
View this message in context: http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/EV-dissing-in-media-tp4352954p4360228.html
Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Lensman wrote -

> I suppose as a newbie to this forum, I am expected to put up with a
> certain amount of hazing by those who consider themselves to be alpha
> males. But that doesn't mean I have to like it.

There is no hazing going on here at all... just peoples natrural response to opinions and *facts* 
that don't have any basis in the EV world.

Your use of *alpha males* is also misplaced... most of the people here are geeks...(LOL)

Why don't you just chill, sit back, relax and read the posts for a week or two, get a flavor of what 
is actually happening here and contribute some facts that are informative and interesting.

Rush
www.TucsonEV.com





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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Lensman <[email protected]> wrote:
> > On 2/6/2012 5:42 AM, Lee Hart wrote:
> >> Lensman wrote:
> >>> And maybe Lee has a thing or two to learn from me, if he doesn't know
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

<<<<I'm definitely not taking sides here but I doubt someone with a nickname
from a science fiction series that dates to the 1930's is a spring 
chicken.>>>>

It's also a general term for a camera buff, even in this day and age.


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

I am reminded of a Dilbert cartoon. Asok the young intern says, "Hey 
guys! Look at this revolutionary new breakthrough!"

Dilbert the experienced engineer says, "It's been done before. It didn't 
work then, so it probably won't work now."

Wally the cynical old slacker says, "Nothing ever changes. It's all a 
con game. Things just keep getting worse; then you die."

I'm in Dilbert's position. I certainly don't know everything about EVs; 
I'd be doing good to know even 1% or 2%. But I've been building and 
driving them for over 30 years. I've seen literally *hundreds* of 
gushing "revolutionary breakthrough" announcements. The 20/20 hindsight 
of history has revealed them as wild exaggerations. At best, they dress 
up an old idea with a few improvements and a lot of hype. At worst, they 
either don't know what they're talking about, or are lying to con someone.

The media just *loves* the Asoks of the world. You can tell them 
anything and they'll *believe* it! They're never skeptical, they never 
fact-check, and they don't know anything about the past, so you can make 
up your own history!

So, I often encounter "Asoks" that believe these forward looking 
statements (i.e. made-up fairy tales) about some miracle battery or 
breakthrough motor that will change everything. I try to warn them not 
to get their hopes up. Facts and history are against these breakthroughs 
amounting to much. Don't believe it until you can actually get one to test!

Sadly, this often makes them mad. They want the dream to be true, and 
I'm wrecking it for them. Who the hell am I to question the wisdom of 
some corporate manager, or government official, or unknown professor 
with a PhD after his name? They read it in Popular Science; it *must* be 
true! They don't want to hear any "backward looking statements" with 
verifiable facts or actual history.

Lensman, you seem to be in Asok's position. You've seen these forward 
looking statements, and apparently believed their version of history, 
and predictions that an exciting new EV future is coming "real soon 
now". I'm just trying to be Dilbert, and provide a more skeptical, 
objective viewpoint.

> if you are going to insist on me specifying "EV passenger 
> automobiles", when the term "EV" on a forum such as this one is 
> generally used to refer to just that-- and not to train locomotives, 
> buses, and heavy construction vehicles-- then we are not going to agree. 

In fact, "EV" just means Electric Vehicles -- of *all* types. You'll 
find all kinds routinely discussed on this list. Cars, trucks, buses, 
motorcycles, electric bicycles, golf carts, boats, airplanes, trains -- 
you name it!

AC motors are *not* new in on-road EVs. I *did* give examples of 
ordinary passenger cars with AC motor drives dating back to the 1960s. 
There have been on-road EV passenger cars with AC motors ever since. You 
find them whenever the higher cost of AC was not an issue.

You naturally find AC drives more often in trains, trucks, buses, and 
sports cars simply because they are more expensive vehicles, and can 
justify the higher cost.

> I suppose as a newbie to this forum, I am expected to put up with a 
> certain amount of hazing

This isn't meant to be hazing. If it sounds like it, I apologize on 
behalf of the EVDL. I haven't been offended by your posts; I just see 
them as comments from a newbie.

Email is a poor medium for expressing emotions, and can lead to 
misunderstandings. "Yeah, right!" might mean I emphatically agree with 
you; or it might be a sarcastic "No, you idiot". If we were face to 
face, body language would fill in the meaning (smiling nods, or teenage 
eye roll).

I think what happened is that you got interested in EVs, and found this 
list. You posted some comments that (to this crowd) came across as 
statements of the obvious, and repetitions of media pseudo-history 
intended for the uninformed masses. That got you off on the wrong foot.
-- 
Lee A. Hart | Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave N | Forget the perfect offering
Sartell MN 56377 | There is a crack in everything
leeahart earthlink.net | That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Do you own some TSLA stock or options, perchance? For the record, I have ow=
ned both GM and TSLA stock.


Anyway, I'd think it's hard to justify speaking in simple, absolute terms t=
hat the EV-1 did "not" and the Tesla Roadster "did." First a few facts:
* Around 1000 EV-1s were made, and around 2000 Tesla Roadsters have been m=
ade
* GM has been around for about a century, Tesla is a young pup
* The Tesla costs about twice as much (compared to the price of a car corr=
esponding to the lease amount)
* The Tesla looks alot like a Lotus Elise (Lotus makes the body). Yeah, it=
looks great but hardly unique. The EV-1 had a truly unique look.
* The EV-1 had a movie made about it well before the movie talking about t=
he Tesla (WKTEC and ROTEC). BTW I saw WKTEC at Sundance, the festival where=
it premiered. The theater was full despite being early, snow everywhere, a=
nd well below freezing!
* Celebrities gave the EV-1 a mock funeral when the line ceased -- did any=
thing like that happen with the Tesla?
* Both cars received a lot of press
* I hate to burst any bubbles and sound cynical, but the EV-1, EV+, Ranger=
EV, Epic, etc. were the product of the California CARB mandate. This recen=
t burst (Leaf, MiEV, Focus, etc.) are the product of the great increase in =
Federal CAFE standards and they would have occurred independent of the Tesl=
a.
* A modified EV-1 went 183 mph on the Salt Flats -- has any Tesla exceeded=
125 mph?

I'll concede the car guy thing, the EV-1 was hardly slow, but the Tesla is =
downright fast.


You could argue the Tesla has gone further -- they did sell twice as many e=
lectrics, and 100% of their sales have been electric. I think it is more a =
case of Telsa "standing on the shoulders" of the EV-1.


________________________________
From: Lensman <[email protected]>
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <[email protected]> =

Sent: Saturday, February 4, 2012 2:41 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] EV dissing in media
=

... But setting aside its very small but fiercely loyal fan base, I think w=
e can all agree that the EV1 did -not- spark (pun intended) the modern EV r=
evolution. And that the Tesla Roadster did. ...

The reason that the Tesla Roadster sparked the modern EV revolution is beca=
use it built a car that nearly every "car guy" gets excited about-- car col=
lectors, car reviewers, sports car enthusiasts, and automobile manufacturin=
g executives. Tesla Motors got plenty of free advertising from the media be=
cause it was a very sexy, highly desirable car.

And the EV1 did not, because it wasn't.
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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

2012/2/6 Lee Hart <[email protected]>:
> The technology is all here! It *has* been for decades! We just have to
> use it!

Amen (?)



Could not agree more.

'Development' is our biggest threat.

-akkuJukka

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

ehhehe, yes , its it !!!

Albert Hochmair
[email protected]



Am 06.02.2012 um 14:43 schrieb Jukka J=E4rvinen:

> 2012/2/6 Lee Hart <[email protected]>:
>> The technology is all here! It *has* been for decades! We just have to
>> use it!
> =

> Amen (?)
> =

> 
> =

> Could not agree more.
> =

> 'Development' is our biggest threat.
> =

> -akkuJukka
> =

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Having done many aero projects (and having been on college review committees
for such projects), I can say, without a moment's hesitation, that the
following (taken in context) is completely wrong... stunningly so... we are
talking 7th grade algebra here. 

"If you'll bother to look at your own citation, you'll see that area is 
part of the formula for Cd."

Lee Hart's quote is exactly correct. 

"What you are thinking of is CdA; Cd times the frontal Area. If it has 
twice the frontal area, it takes twice the number of pounds of force to 
push it through the air." 

Cd is a coefficient that describes the aero efficiency of the shape: it is a
dimensionless quantity. As Lee correctly implies, a small GM EV1 and a big
GM EV1 would have the same Cd. They would have different CdA (the product
of Cd and area) values. 

Cd exists to facilitate describing "goodness" of shapes, and that is why it
is a dimensionless quantity (as the Wiki article correctly states). Because
the formula used for aerodynamic drag force (Fd = 1/2 rho x v^2 x Cd x area)
is a mathematical formula, it can be rearranged, to define Cd, as the
Wikipedia article also does correctly. If you have a drag force, yes, you
can work backwards to a Cd, given a speed, a rho value, and an area. (This
is a calculation done, for example, from wind tunnel data, to work back to a
Cd.) But obviously, we are not working in that direction when we are
comparing the "streamlining" of a big car with a smaller car. 

So your contention that a four door car would have a higher Cd than a 2 door
is completely wrong. The size of the car is independent of its Cd. With
identical Cd's then a larger frontal area car (e.g. taller and wider) would
have a larger CdA value and hence greater drag for a given speed and air
density.

Although I have not yet seen a post from you that adds value in the context
of this discussion group, I am sure that you must have something to say, so
stick around and lurk a while. Motors and aerodynamics might not be "your
thing" but perhaps you will be able to contribute to marketing discussions,
or discussions on photography or optics. When you get a feel for where you
can contribute, post a little. 

I pray you are not the same Lensman from the EEstory magic clan. 


-----
Think Big.
Drive Small. 
--
View this message in context: http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/EV-dissing-in-media-tp4352954p4361909.html
Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

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|
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----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> 
> I pray you are not the same Lensman from the EEstory magic clan. 
> 

The M.O. looks the same unfortunately. If he/she is the same person, expect to see many highly opinionated posts. Appears to have lots of time on his hands, averaging about 10 posts/day on EEstory.








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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> On 6 Feb 2012 at 8:49, someone wrote:
> 
> > Although I have not yet seen a post from you that adds value in the
> > context of this discussion group, I am sure that you must have something
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

>
> I pray you are not the same Lensman from the EEstory magic clan.

EEstor? I thought they were long-gone like Tilley and his Delorean!

_______________________________________________
| Moratorium on drag racing discussion is in effect.
| Please take those discussions elsewhere. Thanks.
|
| REPLYING: address your message to [email protected]du only.
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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Ken Fry wrote:
> 
> > Having done many aero projects (and having been on college review committees
> > for such projects), I can say, without a moment's hesitation, that the
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

In reference to Martin's question at the end of the thread, I was under the assumption that length could increase or decrease Cd, depending on the overall shape of the object.

Sent from my iPad



> Martin WINLOW <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> >
> > On 6 Feb 2012, at 16:49, Ken Fry wrote:
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Martin WINLOW wrote:
> > A four door implies more length than a 2 door. Ergo, being a longer
> > 'shape' it will probably have a slightly higher Cd. Or are you saying
> > the length of the 'shape' is *completely* irrelevant to drag force?
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

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----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Hi David, 
Your point is well taken, and although I feel chastised, I appreciate your
comment: I would like to be treated as you have treated me. By extension,
if I were acting as Lensman has been, I would want people to react in no
uncertain terms: If they say "We don't like to see our favorite guy
bullied," then I would alter my behavior, and benefit from having done so. 

I was not being facetious when I wrote that I had not seen anything that
adds value from Lensman. (In fact, much of what I have seen subtracts
value... and he's only made a few posts, and it takes bandwidth to correct
misinformation.) Perhaps if he posts about things he knows about, then I
will see something of interest. Perhaps if I knew nothing about EVs, then I
would think that AC motors were somehow "new". If I knew nothing of aero,
perhaps I'd think it made sense to confuse Cd and CdA, or that they were the
same. I read through this thread quickly, but I certainly can't remember at
any time thinking "Oh, there's something new and interesting." 

At least I wrote the encouraging words "so stick around and lurk a while"
while restraining my impulse to simply say what I was thinking: "Go away." 
It is always good to lurk for a while before posting in any forum. 

But as I said, I appreciate your feedback, and agree that my comment is on
the edge, and perhaps over. 


EVDL Administrator wrote
> 


> > On 6 Feb 2012 at 8:49, someone wrote:
> >
> >> Although I have not yet seen a post from you that adds value in the
> >> context of this discussion group, I am sure that you must have something
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Which car did GM develop in the sixties that used an AC motor?

Lee was probably referring to the Electovair:
http://history.gmheritagecenter.com/wiki/index.php/1966_Electrovair_II_Concept

Bill

_______________________________________________
| Moratorium on drag racing discussion is in effect.
| Please take those discussions elsewhere. Thanks.
|
| REPLYING: address your message to [email protected] only.
| Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
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----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

I would think that, all other things being equal, a 4-door car would have a
LOWER Cd than a 2-door car. The frontal area will be the same, but the
longer body allows a smoother flow of air,. In fact, streamlining the back
of a car is more effective then streamlining the front of a car. This is
why very small cars only save fuel in the city, where weight is more
important, but don't do as well on th4e freeway.

-- Larry gales



> Martin WINLOW <[email protected]>wrote:
> 
> >
> > On 6 Feb 2012, at 16:49, Ken Fry wrote:
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Lensman <[email protected]> wrote:
> > On 2/6/2012 10:49 AM, Ken Fry wrote:
> >> Having done many aero projects (and having been on college review commit=
> tees
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Lee Hart <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> > Or, you're seeing one little segment of yet another EV boom-bust cycle.
> > EVs have had *numerous* boom-bust cycles over the years. There was an
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Lensman <[email protected]> wrote:
> > On 2/6/2012 10:49 AM, Ken Fry wrote:
> >> Having done many aero projects (and having been on college review commit=
> tees
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Ken Fry stated:
>> Lee Hart's quote is exactly correct.
Lensman answered:
>Or not.
>I find it quite puzzling that anyone who knows much about 
>engineering would think that a commonly used equation would
>include a variable which has no effect on the result of the
>equation. I'm no engineer, but I think I know at least that much! 

I find it puzzling that someone who declares that he is here
to learn, does not take the knowledge from experienced
engineers on Physics issues, but continues to insist that
his view is correct, apparently without even understanding
the issues he is discussing.
It is a curious way of learning and I am afraid that people
on this list will very soon stop responding or add you to
their filter to avoid wasting time, since your actions do
not support your words that you want to learn.
Also, this list is quite allergic to people who insist that
they know that they are right, while being clearly wrong.



> Lensman wrote:
> >Anyone who plays around with the Cd equation can easily
> >discover this isn't true. It's not like we're arguing over
> >opinion; this is easily checked fact.
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Lensman <[email protected]> wrote:
> > On 2/8/2012 12:52 AM, David Nelson wrote:
> >
> >> Now for why the area doesn't matter as you think it does. Remember
> ...


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