# 1991 Geo Tracker 2WD Conversion



## dtbaker (Jan 5, 2008)

So I'm looking for suggestions on:

1. Appropriate DC motor - Warp9 would be great for your needs

2. Size and type of lithium battery pack - I would suggest 144v (45 cells) at 130ah cells to get an easy 60 mile range with heater and lights running in winter, OR 120v (38 cells) at 180ah. Higher voltage is usually better as you draw lower amps for same performance. CALB cells are emerging as having good quality control AND good availability.


3. appropriate motor controller. - Curtis 1231 might be good for economiical mid-performance build, or Soliton Jr if you want to pay a little more for modern guts, built-in contactor and heat sink, and higher performance.

4. Battery Management System - debatable religious issue whether you actually need one or not. I place my trust in top-balance and letting the charger do its job. So far (2000 miles) my cells have remained 'balanced'.

5. on-board charger - depends what trades you want to make regarding flexibility with expense. Zivan or Elcon are good on the lower end, and something like Manzinta or others are user-variable outputs for possible configuration changes but cost a lot more.

...keep reading!


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## PeterH (Mar 20, 2009)

Thanks for the input Dan... and the link to the EnviroKarma.org web site. I'll study up on your suggestions and that site and get close to spending some cash soon as I expect there to be a fair delay between ordering and seeing the items show up on my doorstep. 

Thanks,
Pete


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## Yukon_Shane (Jul 15, 2010)

Hey Pete,

I'm currently 80% complete on a similiar vintage Geo Tracker conversion. I think that these vehicles are excellent candidates for EV conversions; I'm not sure why we don't see more of them on the road.

DTbaker's recommendations above sounds pretty solid to me. 

I went with 160 V (50 batteries) 100 ah battery pack, warp 9 motor and a Soliton Jr. I'm not on the road yet but I think this configuration will work well for me. I'm currently just waiting for my batteries to arrive to complete my conversions.

I lookforward to reading about your progress. I found this forum to be an excellent resource and I'm sure you will too.

Good Luck!
Shane


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## PeterH (Mar 20, 2009)

Hi Shane,

Do you have a thread going on this forum? Was wondering if you had any pictures posted. I will post some 'starting' pics as soon as I can wrap up a few other projects around here. Wifie says I have to finish up a few before starting another.  The good news is that I think I've found a dead 92 Sidekick a few miles away that I can get for cheap... need it for a lot of missing parts from this 91 Tracker. Both are in rough shape but combined, I think I'll have a nearly complete vehicle.

How much of a lead time is there for Lithium batteries?

Thanks,
Pete


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## dtbaker (Jan 5, 2008)

PeterH said:


> How much of a lead time is there for Lithium batteries?


I would suggest buying only from batteries that are in-stock in the US.... NOT a slow-boat 6 week wait from china; too much can go wrong in deals like that as we have all learned from some vendors like EVComponents(J.Mori$$on) in the past...

Keegan at Calibpower.com generally has CALB in stock and ships within a couple days of payment clearing. Some other Vendors may have stockpile of older Thundersky or Winston on the shelf.... call and make sure they have stock sitting ready to ship!

It is best to order a couple weeks before you plan to install to allow time for balancing, and construction of battery boxes build around actual dimensions. It really helps to have the batteries on hand when figuring out cable routing and terminal/terminal connections when you are working with odd-size or multiple batery box locations., etc.


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## Yukon_Shane (Jul 15, 2010)

PeterH said:


> Hi Shane,
> 
> Do you have a thread going on this forum? Was wondering if you had any pictures posted. I will post some 'starting' pics as soon as I can wrap up a few other projects around here. Wifie says I have to finish up a few before starting another.  The good news is that I think I've found a dead 92 Sidekick a few miles away that I can get for cheap... need it for a lot of missing parts from this 91 Tracker. Both are in rough shape but combined, I think I'll have a nearly complete vehicle.
> 
> ...


I haven't started a build thread yet but I really should. I've taken tonnes of pictures. If I get a bit of time this weekend maybe I'll get one going and post some of my pictures. Or atleast post my build in the Garage section of the site.

My battery supplier (CanEV) tells me that once they place the order they often get batteries from China within 3-4 weeks but I think it depends on a lot of variables. If you're in the USA there are a few companies that are starting to warehouse a good supply of batteries locally which would make the lead time very short. Alot of the folks on this forum are ordering CALB batteries from CalibPower for this (and other) reason(s). Depending on who you talk to there doesn't seem to be much savings in ordering direct from China.

For us folks in Canada it seems just as easy (and possible a bit cheaper) to order direct then to import from the USA. 

Just one of the many choices you'll have to make


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## PeterH (Mar 20, 2009)

Hi Shane,

Is your donar car a 2WD or 4WD? I'm looking around for an adapter plate and haven't found one yet... so wondering what you found?

Also, are you using an onboard charger or only charging at your home base? I'd like to do both but the costs of chargers is a real 'eye-opener'!

Thanks,
Pete


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## dtbaker (Jan 5, 2008)

PeterH said:


> Hi Shane,
> 
> Is your donar car a 2WD or 4WD? I'm looking around for an adapter plate and haven't found one yet... so wondering what you found?



I think its the same as the Swift, metro, and tons of others... you may want to call and make sure:
http://canev.com/KitsComp/Components/AdapterPages/GEOAdapterpage.htm


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## Yukon_Shane (Jul 15, 2010)

PeterH said:


> Hi Shane,
> 
> Is your donar car a 2WD or 4WD? I'm looking around for an adapter plate and haven't found one yet... so wondering what you found?
> 
> ...


My Tracker was a 4wd but I took out all the front drive components to save weight and turned it into a 2wd (your approach is much easier).

I believe that Dan is correct and that the adapter plate should be the same as the swift but definately do some checking before ordering. What I did was I made a template of the bell housing and had a custom adapter plate and coupler made for me by Charlie at EVcoupler (http://www.evcouplerconnection.com/).

Charlie was a great guy to work with and bent over backwards to make sure that the setup worked for me. Plus his prices are really reasonable. 

I'm currently planning to just charge using an onboard charger for now but may upgrade to a larger home based charger in the future. There seems to be a real range of charger prices. I would recommend taking a look at the Elcon chargers. You can get an Elcon 2000+ for around $600 that will very likely be large enough to allow overnight charging from a 110V outlet. If you have a smaller battery pack you might even get away with the Elcon 1500. It seems to be becoming one of the more commonly used chargers for EV conversions.


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## PeterH (Mar 20, 2009)

How does the clutch work in an EV?

I've discussed going without a clutch but decided I want to retain it. But now that brings up a question of exactly how that is going to work. Normally, the pressure plate and the flywheel sandwich the clutch disk. The flywheel is mounted to the ICE crankshaft.

So, with an EV motor, is there still some sort of flywheel attached to the motor for the clutch and pressure plate to mount to? 

I'm sure there is... I've just not seen a good diagram to illustrate this. Does anyone know where I might find a good visual description of the motor-flywheel-clutch-pressureplate arrangement for an EV setup?

Thanks,
Pete


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## dtbaker (Jan 5, 2008)

PeterH said:


> How does the clutch work in an EV?
> I've just not seen a good diagram to illustrate this. Does anyone know where I might find a good visual description of the motor-flywheel-clutch-pressureplate arrangement for an EV setup?


'clutched' adaptors typically keep the clutch/flywheel from the ICE motor. The hub on the electric motor shaft and appropriate design of the adaptor plate/spacer positions the clutch face and throwout in its original position.

I have some pictures of the parts and assembly in my photo gallery starting right around here
http://www.envirokarma.org/ev/gallery/080619_07.motor.w.clutch.htm


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## PeterH (Mar 20, 2009)

Thanks Dan, that is exactly what I was looking for!

Next question: What is the best method or material for strapping the batteries to prevent swelling? I've seen plywood used in several examples. Wondering if 1/8th inch aluminum plate might work and save a bit of space due to the reduced thickness. I just don't know how much force a battery that wants to swell will exert. 

Also wondering why the batteries want to swell in the first place... voltage too low, two high, discharge rates too high? The idea that they might swell on their own while awaing installation is a bit alarming... I'd hate to spend almost $6000 on a set of batteries only to find out a bunch have swelled up on their own.

Thanks,
Pete


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## gsmith191145 (May 1, 2011)

PeterH said:


> Thanks Dan, that is exactly what I was looking for!
> 
> Next question: What is the best method or material for strapping the batteries to prevent swelling? I've seen plywood used in several examples. Wondering if 1/8th inch aluminum plate might work and save a bit of space due to the reduced thickness. I just don't know how much force a battery that wants to swell will exert.
> 
> ...


I honestly believe it to be the heat that warps the plates when the cells are charged. I have had fast chargers and slow trickle chargers and both of them warped the battery plates. I did not have problems with receiving batteries that were bulging.


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## dtbaker (Jan 5, 2008)

PeterH said:


> Next question: What is the best method or material for strapping the batteries to prevent swelling?


....well I think it is debatable whether or not compression strapping is needed or beneficial. I doubt that the plastic deforms unless it is hot from overchange or extended high-C discharge, in which case the batteries are suffering anyway. I am thinking that the tighter constraint would just make it more likely to vent out the top. I'd almost rather have it bulge a little if it got to that.

That being said, I just made my battery boxes a tight fit. I do NOT have foam insulation on the sides because we have mild winters and car is in the garage at night. My boxes are 1/4" polypro plastic sheeting, which is fairly stiff, but does have some give.

1/2" plywood would be stiffer probably.


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## PeterH (Mar 20, 2009)

Finally got another project to the point where I can put it away for the winter and get focused on my EV project. Here are a couple of 'starter' pics. 










The interior is a little rough but for the price, I can clean it up nicely.










Why is it that every potiential donor car has a broken windshield??  This one does also... so that will be something to fix before it goes on the road again. Headed to the local EV group meeting tomorrow night where I hope to discuss some of the finer details of my design before I start ordering parts. 

More to come...
Pete


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## PeterH (Mar 20, 2009)

Started de-ICEing the donor today. The motor is still in place because I'm trying to sell it and having it run should mean a better price. This is what things looked like Sunday morning...










This is what things looked like Sunday evening:




















Hoping to find more time tonight to work on this. 

Also considering ordering a Kostov 10" DC motor for this project. Apparently, it is a slightly lighter, shorter and more powerful motor. Anyone have any experience with that motor selection they care to comment on?

Thanks,
Pete


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## PeterH (Mar 20, 2009)

*Charger Selection?*

Hi there,

Still working on the donor vehicle while I lay plans... 

Considering a 120 or 144 volt battery pack consisting of 100 Ah lithium batteries. At 100 Ah, the recommended charge rate is .3 C or in this case, 30 amps.

I'd like this charger to live on board so I can take advantage of opportunity charging. My questions, *got any recommendations on which charger to use?*

I will of course include a BMS so the I'll need a charger that can be shut off by the BMS when peak pack voltage is reached...

Thanks,
Pete


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## PeterH (Mar 20, 2009)

*De-ICE'd*

This is the required photograph, right??










Took me most of Saturday to pull the motor... had a few distractions. Pulled the transmission from the motor Sunday and powerwashed the Tracker. Ordered the Soliton Jr. last week. It should be here Friday. 

My motor supplier is at that big EV Conversion conference in Missouri so I'll order the motor soon as he gets back.

Ready to work on mounting the motor and trans in the donor now.










Lots of clean up to do before I can really install anything.


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## PeterH (Mar 20, 2009)

Progress to report. My Kostov 10 inch motor just arrived and I just ordered the adapter from CanEV. Hope to see the adapter by next Monday. Meanwhile, I've got to find some documentation on the motor because the crate didn't include any.

Ordered a bunch of parts for the roller, new clutch kit, new brake parts, etc. Should be a busy weekend.

Also heard that it is recommended to burn in the brushes by running it for a few days on 12 VDC. Anyone have any thoughts on that? I'll post a question about that in another forum and see what happens.

Pete


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## dtbaker (Jan 5, 2008)

PeterH said:


> Also heard that it is recommended to burn in the brushes by running it for a few days on 12 VDC. Anyone have any thoughts on that?


some brushes are broken-in, so are pre-formed, but the kostov may not be... running at low voltage and low amps will wear them in so you have full contact before trying to pull several hundred amps thru them.


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## PeterH (Mar 20, 2009)

Thanks Dan. I did some searching and feel that it is a good idea to run it for a few days at 12V to seat the brushes properly. It makes perfect sense to me to do so, even knowing a lot of others feel otherwise.


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## PeterH (Mar 20, 2009)

*Kostov Motor*

As I reported a few days ago, the Kostov motor arrived ok. Oddly the crate was labeled "solar panels" which made not sense... the truck driver wanted to know what sort of solor panels weighted 192 pounds so he stuck around for me to open and inspect the contents.










Two days ago I ordered 45 160 Ah HiPower lithium cells for delivery sometime late December. Spent all weekend trying to figure out where I'm going to stash all those batteries. Haven't come up with a satisfactory solution yet.

Anyone seen a completed project using a Geo Tracker like mine with that many batteries?

I also had a panic attack at one point Saturday. I took my tape measure and measured the length of the transmission, added the length of the motor and guessed at the added length of the adapter that I ordered, and it suggested the motor would extend past the steering linkage... which could be a show-stopper! At worst, I should be able to raise the front end of the motor/transmission assembly a few degrees to clear any linkage, without causing problems down stream with the drive shaft or rear end. Right??

Then I got to thinking about this... the Kostov is a bit shorter than a Warp9 and the adapter I just ordered was for this very vehicle and a Warp9 motor. That would certainly suggest that I'm worried about nothing because this would have been a problem for anyone converting this rig, not just me, and no one else has raised alarms... so I'm not going to worry about this till the adapter shows up and I put it all together and find out if it all fits or not. Hoping that will be this week sometime.

I have a local fabrication shop making a 10 inch diameter, 3 inch wide, 1/4 inch steel ring as the start for my motor mount. Seems there aren't any pre-fabricated mounts for this motor that I could buy off the shelf. So I'll be making my own. I'll post pictures and a report about that as it happens.

Today's problem? Found another complete vehicle like mine in a local salvage yard. Do I really need a third parts rig? Common sense says no, but if I can get it for $200, the pack-rat in me, says go get it!  I can always part it out... discovered the hard way, that parts for my rig are getting VERY hard to come by!

Pete


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## Yukon_Shane (Jul 15, 2010)

*Re: Kostov Motor*



PeterH said:


> ...Anyone seen a completed project using a Geo Tracker like mine with that many batteries?....
> 
> I also had a panic attack at one point Saturday. I took my tape measure and measured the length of the transmission, added the length of the motor and guessed at the added length of the adapter that I ordered, and it suggested the motor would extend past the steering linkage... which could be a show-stopper! At worst, I should be able to raise the front end of the motor/transmission assembly a few degrees to clear any linkage, without causing problems down stream with the drive shaft or rear end. Right??
> 
> ...


Hey Pete,

I actually moved my motor above the steering linkage on my tracker. It seemed to be the easiest approach and it should help protect the motor a bit. I'll try and attach a picture (haven't tried this before so it may not work).

As for fitting the batteries, take a look at this example: http://got-ev.blogspot.com/ 

It's a Lead-Acid conversion but the approach he took looks pretty solid to me. 

Shane


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## PeterH (Mar 20, 2009)

*The Adapter Nightmare*

Ok, got the adapter I ordered yesterday. Didn't take me long to figure out it wasn't going to fit. I'm guessing that since most Trackers are 4WD and I have a factory version of a 2WD rig, the transmission is different. Just my luck... You can see here the difference. 










Not exactly sure what to do now. Hoping I might be able to find a local machine shop to fabricate what I need. 

Randy at CanEV was understanding and suggested I ship it back for a refund. 

Everything else is on hold now till I resolve this issue.

Pete


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## madmike8 (Jun 16, 2011)

Will the 4x4 bell housing bolt to your trans? Might be easier... Since you already have the adaptor.


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## PeterH (Mar 20, 2009)

Interesting idea Mike... if I had access to one, I'd jump on that idea. Unfortunately, my 4WD parts rig still has the motor in place so it would be big job to pull it apart to test out that theory. But... now that I have pics of the adapter, eventually I'll know if that was the cause for the different trans. Meanwhile, I think I've got the help I need to build an adapter and coupler locally.

I'll be posting updates as they evolve. 

Pete


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## PeterH (Mar 20, 2009)

I don't do "waiting around for parts" very well... so I've been working on cleaning up the wiring harness and the dashboard. So far, I've managed to eliminate a lot of wiring! 










Thought I'd cut one too many wires because my turn signals weren't working... After way too long, I found where the turn signal relay was located... and plugged it back in. Suddenly the turn signals were working again!  Big relief! Can you imagine the trouble to put some of that mess back together again to replace a cut wire? Got more wiring to careully remove before I'm done. 

I also removed all of the air movement equipment under the dash. Cleaned out a lot of dust, dirt, and loose change AND pulled out all the A/C hardware. Won't be needing that!










Replaced all the long-gone foam gaskets with 1/4 inch foam insulation from Home Depot. Works perfectly and seems to be the same thickness as the original material. The 21 year old foam was all rotted away so everything was very noisy.

Now the problem is just how to connect the various air handler controls on the dash... the PO had it all ripped out and never even tried to put it all back. Fine with me, helps explain why I got this so cheaply... 

Paid $525 for the entire rig, drove it 90 miles home, pulled the motor and sold that last week for $300. Going to sell the old, fancy rims, and recover more of that original $525 cost. I have two sets of factory rims for summer and winter tires. 

Pete


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## PeterH (Mar 20, 2009)

*Motor Mounts?*

Still waiting for my new adapter plate to show up. Meanwhile, I've been busy trying to get ready. I fabricated the basis of a mount for the motor. I had a 3 inch wide, 10 inch diameter band of 1/4 inch steel rolled at a local shop and then I welded on two flanges and drilled some holes for two grade 10, 10mm bolts. I'll paint it up once the rest of the mount if fabricated and before I make the final install.










I suspect that by the time I'm done, I'll be cutting off the flanges and starting over again with a better eye to the proper angle needed. But this might just work.










I am however, wondering how best to mount the motor in the engine compartment. You can see here the two motor mount bolt points on the frame. 










Annoyingly they are off set from each other. I think one is about an inch or two further front than the other. Nothing that can't be overcome, but it just complicates things a bit.

So the question in my mind now is should I bolt right to these frame mounts, or use the original motor mounts and bolt to them? I really don't know which is better. I've seen pictures of builds where the original mounts were used and others where it was bolted right to the frame.

I suspect torque will be an issue, but I'm guessing I'll burn out the standard clutch in this rig before I twist a motor mount off... but only experience will really decide. I asked at a local parts store and learned that the standard clutch is the only one they can get. They suggested I try some of the online performace sites to see if I can find something there.




















If I bolt right to the frame I can use the motor mount brackets shown above to bolt to the frame and just weld to that bracket.









Or I could use the motor mount shown above (this is the original and is not usable because it was broken when I bought the rig) for some bit of dampening. Is that really a benefit or necessary?










I've got a month or more to figure this out... and find replacement motor mounts if I decide to go that way. That might not be easy because new parts for a rig this old seem to be difficult to come by. Apparently, I got the very last transmission mount left in the inventory... least that is what the NAPA parts counter dude told me.

I actually spent a few hours this morning while the sun was out and before it started to rain, out in the driveway, under this rig with three cans of brake cleaner and a toothbrush cleaning the transmission tunnel and the engine compartment of oil buildup. It looks a lot cleaner than these pics show... I also cleaned up all the rust around the old battery tray and spray painted the area around it with blue spray paint, that almost matches.  That was probably my last chance to do that before our first snow which is rumored to be later this week. Oh joy...

Any thoughts about the best way to mount the motor on this rig?

Thanks,
Pete


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## dtbaker (Jan 5, 2008)

*Re: Motor Mounts?*

go to the orginal motor mounts if at all possible. You'll get the compliance that rest of the drivetrain needs.... and everything will be lined up under torque as designed.


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## PeterH (Mar 20, 2009)

Thanks Dan...

You bring up an interesting point. I suspect but have yet to confirm this because I don't have the adapter in hand yet. Based on a simple tape measture test, think I'll have to raise the motor about 2 inches to clear the steering linkage. If that proves to be the case, do you have any idea what impact that might have on the rest of the drive line?

I saw another reference that said as long as the transmission output shaft and the differential input shaft remain parallel, I can raise the motor without concern. However, by lifting the nose of the motor a few inches to clear the steering linkage, I'll change the geometry a bit and possibly cause problems with the drive shaft.

Do you have any thoughts on that?

Thanks,
Pete


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## EVfun (Mar 14, 2010)

You should be able to get small wedge shaped shims to go between the rear axle and the leaf springs. These are available at hot rod and off road shops just for the purpose of adjusting pinion angle. The motor and the rear axle need to have the same angle to prevent dynamic vibrations at certain speeds (the speeds depending on driveshaft construction, length, angle difference and gearing.)

You may want to see if you can raise the rear of the transmission a little too. This is an angle game. Raising the front 2 inches would change the angle 3.8 degrees if the fixed point in the rear was 30 inches behind the front.


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## dtbaker (Jan 5, 2008)

you really want to do your best to get back to the original angles.... suspension, u-joints and CV joints last a lot longer and handle better if you can keep the stock angles. If you HAVE to raise/lower the drive end of the drive shaft in rear-wheel drive, its best to rotate rear axles to recover the original static angle if possible.


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## PeterH (Mar 20, 2009)

I'm glad I mentioned this issue. Looks like I need to find a 4x4 shop in the area... 

I've been thinking about a 3 inch suspension lift kit that would worsen the situation. The purpose of the lift kit is to recover some of the lost clearence when I find I have to install my battery boxes below, or through the floor, beneath the driver and passenger seat. I want to retain the clearence for two reasons: 1. avoid any chance of dragging the bottom of the battery boxes 2. not loose any snow clearence since I'm working towards a daily driver and we get a lot of snow here.

Why put them through the floor? Mostly because I'd like to lower the center of gravity and I'd like to retain the back seat. Otherwise, I'm thinking I'll have to use the entire back seat area for batteries.

However, I'm not doing anything with the battery placement until I have the motor and transmission in place and know if, and if so, how much, I have to lift the nose of the motor. If I do, I'll see if I can raise the rear transmission mounting point an equal amount.

Thanks!!
Pete


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

*Re: Motor Mounts?*



PeterH said:


> Any thoughts about the best way to mount the motor on this rig?
> 
> Thanks,
> Pete


In theory, when compressed, the two mount rubbers should point towards the axis of the motor. That allows the compresson of the rubbers to support the weight of the motor while the torque is controlled by the rubbers in shear.
The rubber would be stiffer in compression then in shear as the weight of the ICE would be the bigger consideration then the torque. The motor maybe the other way around so may require a torque arm.

The motor support band should have stout brackets bolted to each side to align with the rubbers. Some adjustment may be needed to allow for compression of the rubbers and elongated bolt holes would allow for the fine adjustment. The brackets can then be properly located either with an additional 'drilled to fit' bolt hole or it can be welded in place.

If the torque is substantial then at a suitable point on the motor frame, say two of the bolts on the CE, a bracket can be made that will connect a rod to the vehicle frame that has rose joints at each end.


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## PeterH (Mar 20, 2009)

Just a quick FYI to anyone following this build. I'll be mostly 'silent' on this build until after December 8th. I'm currently in Dubai on my way to Riyadh Saudi Arabia to grab some of my oil money back... actually, on a business trip to wrap up a big software project I've been working on for the past 2 years.

Flew on the A380 from JFK direct to Dubai and 14 hours on any plane is way too long! Plus we got the extra roller coaster tour over the north Atlantic... that was the roughest air I've ever experienced!

By the time I return, I expect to be greeted by a couple of crates full of batteries. 

Pete


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## green caveman (Oct 2, 2009)

Pete,



PeterH said:


> Just a quick FYI to anyone following this build.


I wish I had been following this build. I have a SolidWorks model for the transmission and the raw measurements. Ours is a 4x4, but from memory, it looks to match your photo, so it may be model year or some other issue rather than 4x4. I think that there was a major model change in 95(?) so the 94 we have may match your 91.

I plan (at some point) to start a build thread, to archive this type of information. Our build has been going on for years, but it looks as though we may finally make some good progress - right after the armature for the motor comes back from the rebuilders and we finally get the plate machined (OK so maybe just progress rather than good progress).

The 4x4 has the front diff as well as all the steering arm issues, so we're hoping we'll clear all those. While I think Dan's right that in an ideal world, you should try and keep all the angles correct, if you go and find a Sidekick that's been seriously lifted, that's not the case and they seem to run (probably more u-joint replacements and probably not good for the rear diff).

BTW did you sell the ICE? They are much sought after by Samurai owners since they are a drop-in replacement for the 1.3l engine that was stock in those. Some of the other parts are sought after for the same reason.

EDIT:Added a photo of the 4x4 transmission, looks to be the same, but the transfer case is a part of the transmission so the back-end is probably different.


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## PeterH (Mar 20, 2009)

Interesting... I compared your photo with the one I posted earlier in this thread and they match. I wonder why the big difference between what we have as the transmission bell housing and what Canadian EV has in their inventory.

I have a 92 4WD Sidekick out in the barn but I'm a long way from removing the motor to take a peek.

My new adaptor was delivered a few days after I left for this business trip so I hadn't had the opportunity to put everything together to see how it all fits.

Thanks for the information and the photo... nice to know I'm not totally crazy...  

I did manage to sell the ICE... knocked the cost of my donor down from $525 to $225. I still have the exhaust, fuel tank and the radiators to sell... just waiting to get home before I list them again.

Pete


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## green caveman (Oct 2, 2009)

PeterH said:


> Interesting... I compared your photo with the one I posted earlier in this thread and they match. I wonder why the big difference between what we have as the transmission bell housing and what Canadian EV has in their inventory


 I did wonder if the plate was a mirror image, but assumed that you had checked that. Someone here converting a VW using a kit found that problem - the plate fit perfectly as long as the motor mounts were on the transmission side.


PeterH said:


> I did manage to sell the ICE... knocked the cost of my donor down from $525 to $225. I still have the exhaust, fuel tank and the radiators to sell... just waiting to get home before I list them again.


 We paid $500 for the donor. The ICE was running but too trashed to sell. We just took the money for the cat since no one seemed interested in the exhaust. In some places you can't get scrap value for the cat unless it's attached to the whole exhaust system - anti-theft laws. We traded the power steering for a manual box and sold the power box.


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## PeterH (Mar 20, 2009)

FINALLY!!! Back from that business trip and back in the gararge! Too bad it is only 20 degrees F. outside. Had to burn a lot of propane to warm up the garage so I could get back to work.

While I was away, a number of needed components showed up at my door. The motor/trans adaptor showed up so naturally I started with that because the next major step is to get the motor in place.

Question: Just how in the world are you supposed to get the flywheel adapter onto the motor shaft?? 

I managed to do it by spending several hours banging on it with a leather hammer and checking every so often to ensure I was making progress. Managed to push the adapter down the shaft until I reached the limit imposed by a retaining ring machined into the shaft opening. I'm assuming that is the correct distance since I didn't get anything in the way of instructions with the adaptor parts. I don't have a real way to measure runout on the adapter face but it looks and feels like it is on the shaft nearly perfectly. Don't detect any wobble at all.










Once that was in place I moved on to the next part of the adapter. The plate that fits directly to the motor face. The tolerances were too tight and there was no way that was going to fit over the raised portion of the motor face without some work. So I spent the next several hours with a rat-tail file and my dremel working around the inner face of the plate to widen the opening just enough so it would fit on. I finally got it to a point where it fit and with just a tap or two with my trusty leather hammer, it fit tight up against the face. 

Unfortunately, I also had to widen one of the four bolt holes in the plate. Seems odd the machine shop got 3 of them right but not the 4th. With the face plate and the bell housing adapter in place, I replaced the throw-out bearing on the transmission input shaft, installed the new bushing for the input shaft, into the opening on the flywheel adapter and fitted the motor to the trans. 










In my dreams, I was thinking this should have taken only 3 or 4 hours. However, it worked out to be more like a good solid 11 hours so basically, my entire Sunday, starting at 5:30 am and finishing around 4:30.

My plan is to tighten up the bolts between the motor and trans after applying a bit of lock-tight, and then see just how this will fit in the body of the Tracker. I'm sure I'll be pulling it out at least twice before this is all done, and maybe more. I'm expecting to have to do a lot of cutting, grinding and welding to make this work. I bought new motor mounts to replace the original mounts so I'll be including those in this arrangement. 

I also expect that the motor's belly band I fabricated will be moved over the spot where eye-bolt in the top of the motor screws into the motor. At the very least, if I do that, it will certainly ensure that the motor can't twist in the belly band at all. 

I'll try to remember to take more photos of the next few steps just so it is better documented. Didn't think to take any pics yesterday till I was almost all done.


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## PeterH (Mar 20, 2009)

Most of the progress of last weekend was undone when I posted a question about something I noticed during assembly of the motor/transmission adapter. It is all documented at: http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showthread.php/adapter-flywheel-fiti-66820.html

Over the past week I've had the adapter machined to fit the flywheel and put it all back together again. 

Tonight I got the motor and transmission into place so I can start to fabricate the motor mount. I have a belly band around the motor that I intend to use as a welding point for the rest of the mount.



















I was hoping that the motor would be just short enough to avoid the steering linkage. Not the case... it overlaps the steering linkage by about an inch. So I have to lift the motor up an inch or so to go over the linkage.










I'll be working on the motor mounts over the weekend. As you might be able to see, I ordered replacement motor mounts and I'll be bolting the engine bracket to those motor mounts. Guessing it will take all weekend to get things cut and welded but at least it is forward progress!

I'm expecting my new batteries to show up by the end of next week. Guess I can't wait any longer to order a charger. It will either be a Manzanita or the open source charger that is available at: http://www.emotorwerks.com/emw3/category/component-designs-kits/

Also still up in the air over the subject of a BMS. Not sold on the idea that I need one.... but the local guys are trying hard to convince me that I need one.

Pete


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## PeterH (Mar 20, 2009)

Picked up my batteries today. 45 130 Ah CALB cells. Got zero documentation with the cells but I did get the bolts and the connecting straps. Just measured the voltage on all of the cells and they all were between 3.275 and 3.282 with the average voltage at 3.280 v

I also ordered a completed version of that open source 10 KW charger from Valery today. I'm hoping to see it in roughly 3 weeks. Hoping that by then, I have these batteries mounted in my build... not holding my breath of course, but I'm going to try to make that happen.


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## drgrieve (Apr 14, 2011)

Are the connecting straps braided? I can't tell from the picture.

A suggestion if you haven't already is to look into nordlock washers for peace of mind.


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## TEV (Nov 25, 2011)

Hi,
I got a copy of the Calb owner manual in pdf.
PM your email address if you want it.


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## PeterH (Mar 20, 2009)

I've had the entire week off so I've been working on my build. Couldn't think of a better way to spend my time off. I've got the new motor mounts fabricated and in place. I'm a bit worried about the design but couldn't come up with a better one. I might do it differently if I had to do it over again. The original ICE mounts seem to be under a bit of lateral stress so I'm worried they might fail after a while. 































Still wondering why the people who design and build these motors don't come up with a built-in way to mount these motors. The belly band seems to be working but it sure took a lot of time to build my own mounting system. None of the off-the-shelf offereings would have worked.

With the motor and transmission back in place, it was time to move on to the battery boxes. I started with the pair of boxes under the passenger seat. I wanted to mount the batteries on their narrow side but decided to stand them up as the factory recommends. Figured I had the space so why not try to stay with that is recommended. Enough experimenting going on with this project as it is.










Cutting that big hole in the floor was scary... but I'm committed now!
I've never welded with aluminum before. It took me a while to figure out how to get a decent bead. Sure glad I have a nice grinder to smooth out my many mistakes. After this first set of boxes, I'm a lot more comfortable with the idea so the remaining aluminum welding shouldn't take nearly as long.










These two boxes will hold 15 batteries. I'll eventually put another pair under the driver's seat. The final 15 will go in a box back where the fuel tank lived. Measured that out earlier today and started cutting the aluminum. Looks like I'll be able to complete that rear box and the two under the passenger seat with a single 4 foot by 8 foot sheet of 1/8th inch aluminum. I've ordered a second sheet today which should let me finish the job.

With all these boxes in the floor and in the fuel tank area, I'll be able to avoid having batteries under the hood so the underhood area should be nice and neat. But that remains to be seen. 

I'll post more later this week after I have more progress to post.

Pete


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## PeterH (Mar 20, 2009)

Spent another weekend on my build. I now have all the holes cut for the battery boxes and I'm ready to mount the boxes. I have all the boxes fabricated out of 1/8th inch aluminum plate. Been buying 4 foot by 8 foot sheets of the aluminum and cutting it with a straight edge and a plasma cutter. 

Still not very good welding aluminum but I'm making progress and I'm sure these boxes won't fall apart under load.










The battery box replacing the fuel tank fit well. Easily get 15 cells in this box.




























Don't think I'll really need more than those four connection points on the steel frame. I'm using 1/8th inch mild steel and 1/8th inch x 1 inch angle steel to build the frame. If you think need more than that, please speak up now, before I drop batteries on the road somewhere... 

Actually, I won't permanently mount anything until I have all of the wiring figured out. For example, I need to order conduit for the main power run between boxes. I also need to decide and order the BMS components so I know how and were to run wires for the BMS. 

I suspect rebuilding some sort of seat mounts over those boxes will be a real challenge... but I have more pressing things to worry about at the moment. 

I was going to have a big fuse bank under the hood where it is easy to reach. But someone pointed out that it would be safer to fuse any BMS wires closer to the batteris so I'm likely to use an inline fuse for any lines to the central BMS device.

And on that subject, Is sent the folks at Orion BMS an email from their web site form, and haven't heard anything yet. But to be fair, today is only MOnday and a holiday here in the states and I did send that request for information on a Friday afternoon. So haven't made any decisions on the BMS front just yet...

More later this week after I have more progress to show for all the effort...

Pete


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## PeterH (Mar 20, 2009)

It has been a while since my last update. I've finally got my battery boxes securely in place. I just posted a conclusion to another thread I had going on the subject of the box frame support. You can read up on it at: 
http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showthread.php/battery-box-frame-support-68652.html

I am patiently waiting for my charger to show up. I ordered a built version of the EMW SmartCharge-10000 from Electric Motor Werks! back in December. Valery assures me it will be shipped soon. I expected some delays and some issues since this is sort of version 1.0 of the device. 

Meanwhile, I've been working on a battery box heating scheme based on the Flexi-Watt heat tape that I learned about elsewhere on this forum. Bought an Arduino board and a few books with the intent of programming a set of thermostatically controlled solid state relays to warm the battery boxes. Making slow progress with that effort but still moving ahead on other fronts.

If anyone has programmed one of these boards for a system like I'm trying to design, please let me know!  I'd love to have someone's brain to pick for some answers. 

I'll detail my design ideas sometime soon.

Pete


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## green caveman (Oct 2, 2009)

Pete,



PeterH said:


> Meanwhile, I've been working on a battery box heating scheme based on the Flexi-Watt heat tape that I learned about elsewhere on this forum. Bought an Arduino board and a few books with the intent of programming a set of thermostatically controlled solid state relays to warm the battery boxes. Making slow progress with that effort but still moving ahead on other fronts.
> 
> If anyone has programmed one of these boards for a system like I'm trying to design, please let me know!  I'd love to have someone's brain to pick for some answers.
> 
> I'll detail my design ideas sometime soon.


Relays should be easy but even if it's a scanned hand-sketch some details might help. Do you have a relay board/shield for the Arduino? If so, it should just be a matter of opening/closing relays when you see a particular temperature.

Don't know what you have for temperature sensing, but the LM35 hooks up really easily to an Arduino, as described for example here & here.


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## PeterH (Mar 20, 2009)

Time for a long overdue update on this project. Fortunately, while I haven't been updating this thread, I have been busy with my build. So here is my update for March 21, 2012.

I have the battery boxes all in place, sealed up, ready for the batteries... except for the temperature probes that I have yet to put together. That is a whole other thread... that I also need to update. 

As you can see here, I'm going to be supporting the passenger and driver seats with the top of the battery box. In effect, I've only lost the floor space behind those seats. Meaning anyone sitting in that tiny back seat, had better be short. My son is only 9 so he will fit fine.










The rear most battery box is also sealed up and ready to go. I still need to cut a rubber gasket to put under that lid. I have a roll of 1/16th inch think, 2 foot wide and about 10 feet long that I bought on ebay just for this project. That will help a little with air and water infiltration... I am a bit concerned about water, because the rear edge of that lid is actually below the very rear lip of the bed. Meaning if water were to spill or leak into the back, it would naturally try to get into the battery box because that read desk is slooped towards the front of the vehicle. I've sealed it up fairly well and I'll be doing more with silicon rubber before this hits the road.










A look in the pair of boxes beneath the passenger seat. The battery warming plates are just visible in the bottom of these two. You can see the power cables in the bottom leading out through that conduit. All 5 boxes are set up the same way.










Here is a shot showing how the top and bottom of the boxes compare with the door frame. I was afraid at one point, that the doors would no longer close because the boxes were right up against the door frame. However, I've looked at my 'hanger queen' (a second copy of this same vehicle out in my barn) and I don't think the doors will be much of a problem.










The major accomplishment over the past 2 weeks is all of the conduit I've added to keep all my cables out of the weather. You can see here the junction box I've riveted to the back of one of the boxes. At the moment only the battery warming plate power lines are visible. I'll be running some of the BMS wires along with the temperature probe wires thru this conduit if it all fits... if not, I may have to run some of the BMS wires in the same conduit as the main pack voltage cables. Should be plenty of room.










Now I have to figure out what to do with all of these cables that lead to the engine compartment. That is my current focus. I've mounted a piece of metal to the firewall and plan to mount a couple of terminal blocks where I can tie into the pack voltage for distribution and instrumentation. 










A few more shots to wrap up this update. I'll try to update this again soon because I'm close to starting wiring things up. With one exception. I'm still waiting for my charger from emotor works. 

Eventually, I'll be applying some sort of undercoating or paint to everything under neath the EV... they say if you paint it black it becomes invisible. 








http://www.petehoyt.com/images/EVproject/DSC04324.jpg


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## PeterH (Mar 20, 2009)

Dispite a lack of updates over the past few weeks, I've been busy with my build. All of the major components are in place in the engine compartment.

I was dragging my feet while waiting for a custom built EMW SmartCharge-10000 charger (http://www.emotorwerks.com/emw3/product/fully-assembled-and-tested-charger/) that never saw the light of day in my garage. So I opted for a 5KW Elcon charger which you can see in the photo below. I'm still waiting for a refund from emotorwerks...










I've got my firewall distribution box all set up. Have just a few minor things to add to the box. This is where the main pack cables come into the engine compartment. My neighbor has one of those combo 30 inch box brake/metal shear/roller tools that he let me use to build these boxes. It took me a few tries to get something satisfactory but if I had the budget, I'd buy one for my shop. Great tool when fabricating things for an EV build!










My DC/DC converter is all set up and ready to go. I added an induction coil today. It isn't shown in this photo but I just wired it into the circuit between the relay you see in this photo and the DC/DC converter.










The most labor intensive thing was setting up my BMS box. You can see the layout below. I wanted each of the battery connections on a terminal strip so I can easily check the individual battery voltage without having to open the battery boxes. I have a window cut into the lid for the BMS box so I can see all of the LEDs on the BMS boards.










I am presently working on the J1772 connector in the old fuel tank fill port. I also have to finish wiring the BMS connections to the batteries. Each has to have a fuse close to the battery terminal. 

Let's see, what else...?

1. Need a maintanence switch/emergency disconnect.

2. Need to finish up the wiring for the battery box heaters and temperature sensors. The wires are in place within the battery boxes. I just need to find a home for them. I want the temp sensors in place over the summer so I can monitor the box temps. I haven't removed the winter insulation so I'm a bit concerned about box temps climbing too high.

3. Install the refurbished dashboard and all that implies so that I have a place to mount three different data displays.

4. Finish wiring up the Soliton Jr. So far I have the tach sensor connected and the throttle connected. Haven't applied power to it yet. 

Taking my time and being very careful so that I don't let the smoke out the first time I apply power.

Hoping to get a lot more time on the build over this next weekend.

Pete


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## TEV (Nov 25, 2011)

Nicely done. I hope you will be able to drive it very soon.


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## Yukon_Shane (Jul 15, 2010)

Looks really good Pete.

I'm driving mine a little bit more now and it's alot of fun. It'll be great to see you on the road.


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## PeterH (Mar 20, 2009)

Thanks for the positive motivation guys.  I'm working on wiring things up today. Had to come in to shut down the computer... thunderstorm rolling in. 

Pete


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## Yabert (Feb 7, 2010)

Really nice and clean build Peter.
I like your conversion.


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## PeterH (Mar 20, 2009)

Hi there... time for another update.

Still haven't applied power to the systems yet. Working on wiring up the battery boxes. I have 3 of the 5 done and hope to have the last two finished before the day is over.

Ran into a problem last night. In box number 3, three of the batteries sit in a row short-side by short side-side. I hadn't measured the distance between terminals in that configuration until it came time. For some dumb reason I guess I thought the would work out to be the same distance. Guess again... you can see the problem:










I only needed to bridge two sets of cell terminals like this. Since I'm using the braided straps I bought from the EVTV folks, I have a pile of the bare copper straps that came with the batteries. So here is what I did:










I took 2 of them apart and alternately layered them up into one longer version with a 5/16th bolt in the joint to hold them tightly together. My logic with this is that they are intended to be used for this purpose anyway, so I should be able to use them like this. Please let me know if you think this is going to fail for some reason!

Once together and with new insulation they look like this. Just test fitting it on the bench in this shot. When installed they also have a nord-lock washer to keep things nice and tight.










Once installed in the battery box, this is how they look.










I am having a bit of trouble making sure that back row of batteries is secure. I've been cramming in shims between the last cell and the insulation to make them all a tight fit in the other boxes. I cut an aluminum plate to go next to the cell so there wasn't a point souce of pressure on the cell. That seems to work well. I think I'll be using a cut down plastic cutting board in this box.

I also cover the finished cells with a sheet of 1/16th inch think rubber across the top of all of the cells and between the lid and all the cables. Just to protect against anything being dropped into the box when I'm installing or removing the lids.

Oh, and here is a nice reminder... I was running that big cable from one end of the box to the other when I dropped the end and it ever so briefly touched a terminal at the other end of the box and completed a closed circuit. Big spark and splash of molten steel. I hope to NEVER do that again! This is what it did to the bolt in the terminal:










I checked the cell voltages immediately after that and they are all still at 3.29 VDC. Whew! 

Pete


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## Ziggythewiz (May 16, 2010)

Yeah, would be nice if they could have considered both possible configurations when sizing the cells. I was looking at some options and it looks like 60 AH connectors fit end-end for 40 AH cells, may be true for some of the larger ones.

Don't see why they couldn't have just centered the posts so that end-end and side-side would be the same for all cases.


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## dladd (Jun 1, 2011)

hey, I've got 2 extra braided straps from evworks, these ones here, which are for the 130ah CALB cells end to end. I needed 4, but the shipping was the same if I bought 6 (shipping for 4 cost just about as much as the parts cost!) so i just ordered 6. I don't need them, so if you like I could send them to you. Though what you have done certainly looks like it will work fine.


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## PeterH (Mar 20, 2009)

dladd said:


> hey, I've got 2 extra braided straps from evworks, these ones here, which are for the 130ah CALB cells end to end. I needed 4, but the shipping was the same if I bought 6 (shipping for 4 cost just about as much as the parts cost!) so i just ordered 6. I don't need them, so if you like I could send them to you. Though what you have done certainly looks like it will work fine.


Hi there... wish I had asked this question BEFORE I finished up with the battery wiring.  I'd have probably bought those from you. Thanks for the offer anyway... 

I was hoping to apply powe to the main systems over the weekend. However, I got side tracked by all of the details of wiring the insturmentation so I'm still working on that. Besides. with the first sunny day in weeks, I had to spend time on other spring-time chores. 

Hopefully, I'll have the instrucments wired up correctly sometime this week.

Thanks,
Pete


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## jbird (Apr 27, 2012)

Peter. Great build. Keep up the good work.


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## PeterH (Mar 20, 2009)

Thursday, May 10, 2012.

I applied power to the system today from the main battery pack. Not everything worked as expected.

The good news is that I didn't let any smoke out... the bad news is that my Mini-BMS system lights up as expected but it is sounding an alarm continuously. Don't know why just yet.

My Soliton Jr. isn't behaving as expected. It is putting out an error signal to my "check engine" light on the dash. I'll be retracing all of the wiring tomorrow morning.

I plugged in my GE Watt Station and it seemed to work properly. However, while the Elcon powered up, I can't really tell if it was charging or not. The cooling fans were on but when I checked the voltage of the battery pack, it was the same as before the charger was powered up. I was expecting at least a visible rise in voltage.

So... tomorrow it is back to the meter and wiring diagrams for the individual components to see if I've wired something incorrectly. Still, I feel fortunate that nothing truely bad happened.

Pete


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## PeterH (Mar 20, 2009)

Sunday, May 13, 2012.

Well, all sorts of news today.

1. I took the BMS out of the circuits yesterday so I could continue testing other systems. I have all of my instrumentation working properly now so I can easily tell if the charger is working or not.

2. My controller is going back to Evnetics as soon as we can arrange an exchange. Seems mine left the factory before it was configured properly. In the Web interface, I had a "Configuration Mode!" section that wasn't mentioned in the documentation. The controller was throwing an error as soon as I powered it up saying it wasn't seeing the pack. I could measure pack voltage at the input side of the controller so I knew something was wrong. When I reported the problem to Evnetics and mentioned the "Calibration Mode!" section, they new immediately that it had to be exchanged.

3. I moved on to the Elcon and was able to confirm that it is working properly. I just had to manually short two of the three control wires from the Elcon to enable the charger. So after plugging in the GE Watt Station's J1772 connector, the Elcon powers up. Soon as I manually shorted those two wires, it started pushing 26.5 amps at 150 volts into the pack. I can say one, thing... that felt GOOD!

I spent the rest of the day working on body work as I bolted on the back bumper and then prepped the fenders and doors. I have to call tomorrow to arrange for a new windshield because the one I have is cracked badly and must be replaced before I put back together all the hardware for the wipers and the hood. Luckily my neighbor is setting up a paint booth in his barn for painting a few cars. One of those will probably be my build as soon as I have it ready.

If Evnetics can get me a replacement controller before next weekend, I should be able to at least roll it out of the garage and around the driveway next weekend.

Pete


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## PeterH (Mar 20, 2009)

Got to drive my EV for the first time today. It was a slow crawl around the pasture in reverse gear for a quick test, but it moved under its own power for the first time!!

Seems my Kostov 11" was configured for clockwise rotation and it needed to be configured for counter-clockwise rotation. So gears 1 thur 5 went backwards and reverse went forwards. Took me a minute to figure out what was happening as I was trying to back off of the lift. The shifter knob isn't installed so I was just guessing at the shift pattern. 

Now I have to continue the fine tuning of the system. It took me a while to get the Solition Jr. to cooperate... mostly because I was using a Toshiba netbook as my computer interface and because I had to set the throttle deadzone to 5% before I could clear the "throttle not at zero" error.

The Evnetics web site says they've seen problems using Toshiba notebooks and I have to agree. Soon as I switched to my Sony Vaio, I had no trouble at all making and keeping a connection to the Soliton. I even ran the ethernet cable thru the firewall and ran the datalogger app with the Sony Vaio sitting on the passenger seat.

Oddly tho, the red error light on the side of the Solition still blinks at me and my "check engine" light on the dash continues to blink. Since it is driven by the Solition Jr. that means it is trying to tell me something still isn't 100% with the way I have it connected.

No tachometer reading on the dash yet either. Just spoke to my local vendor and he says he has heard that the tach signal sending unit used in the Kostov hasn't been working well with the Soliton controllers so I've got to investigate that situation as well.

But, bottom line is that I'm one big step closer to buying insurance for this rig! 

Pete


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## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

PeterH said:


> ...Oddly tho, the red error light on the side of the Solition still blinks at me and my "check engine" light on the dash continues to blink. Since it is driven by the Solition Jr. that means it is trying to tell me something still isn't 100% with the way I have it connected.


Yes, it is trying to tell you something... look at the log file or refresh the web interface to find out what.



PeterH said:


> No tachometer reading on the dash yet either. Just spoke to my local vendor and he says he has heard that the tach signal sending unit used in the Kostov hasn't been working well with the Soliton controllers so I've got to investigate that situation as well.


I haven't verified this myself, but my understanding is that when Kostov decided to include an RPM sensor in their motors, they aimed it at the fan blades. So the sensor puts out something like 15 or 16 pulse per turn. NO controller has a setting to accommodate that, so, dumb move on their part. It's possible to use some basic logic ICs to divide this down to something that any controller can handle, but that's not necessarily within every person's skill set. I can whip something up to do this - and make it open source, as well as order boards - if there is sufficient interest.


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## PeterH (Mar 20, 2009)

Regarding the tach signal. I called my local vendor who sold me the motor and who later installed the rpm sensor while I was over seas on business last November. I asked again (this was before your email) how many pulses the motor should be generating per revolution. He replied "2" and then went on to say he had spoken with someone about this and a problem between the sensor and the Soliton controllers. I'll see him Tuesday night at the next EV club meeting so I'll grill him for more details about this. I certainly need a reliable tach in this build! 

About the error being thrown by the Soliton Jr.

I fired up the system again and connected my Sony Vaio. The controller was reporting this error:

Precharge timeout, no voltage [0x00, 0x0000]

During inital startup the Soliton Jr. is generating a error that is causing my "Check Engine" likt to flash for the first few seconds. I'm guessing that is while the precharge capacitors are charging up. Then I hear the click as the contactors close and the Check Engine light goes out.

As I sat there waiting for the notebook to connect to the controller, I ever so gently pressed the throttle to start the engine turning. While the engine spun up to a few hundred RPMs, the Check Engine light started flashing again. Seems that anytime I'm increasing the output from the controller, it generates the error in the form of the flashing check engine light.

At the moment, my Soliton Jr. settings are listed below. Looking at them, I think I see the problem: 

I think my minimum battery voltage a no current is too close to the min voltage a full current.

Not sure what to consider the min voltage under no load or full load for a CALB 130 Ah cell so I'll post a question on another forum to find out. 


All of the settings:

Model Soliton Jr 
Serial number 05-11-9585
Version 1.5.2
Build date May 21 2012
Mode Running 
Throttle setting 3/35% 
Power mode Performance 
Brake input Act. high (12V) 
Tachometer 2 ppt 
I1 Off (100%) 
I2 Off (100%) 
I3 Off (100%) 
O1 RPM (tach) 
O2 Off 
O3 Off 
Throttle deadband 5% 
Half throttle current 50% 
Maximum motor speed 3500
Idle motor speed 0
Idle motor max current 0A 
PID-loop 30, 20, 30% 
Maximum motor voltage at reverse 48V 
Maximum throttle in reverse 50% 
Minimum gauge voltage 100V 
Maximum gauge voltage 120V 
RPM output 2ppt 
Minimum battery voltage at no current 110V 
Minimum battery voltage at full current 100V 
Maximum battery current 400A 
Maximum motor voltage 160V 
Maximum motor current 400A 
Maximum motor power 100kW 
Slewrate 200A/s


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## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

PeterH said:


> Regarding the tach signal. I called my local vendor who sold me the motor and who later installed the rpm sensor while I was over seas on business last November. I asked again (this was before your email) how many pulses the motor should be generating per revolution. He replied "2" and then went on to say he had spoken with someone about this and a problem between the sensor and the Soliton controllers.


This sounds like a coil pickup - ie, when a magnet flies past it a bipolar pulse (positive then negative, or vice versa) is generated. If so, then that type of signal also needs to be conditioned for use in our (and probably any other) controllers. I had no idea that Kostov switched to this type of sensor and there is no data about it on their website. I'll shoot Plamenator an email to see what's what.



PeterH said:


> I fired up the system again and connected my Sony Vaio. The controller was reporting this error:
> 
> Precharge timeout, no voltage [0x00, 0x0000]


That's a stored error, probably from turning on the controller without pack voltage present. Just clear it and keep on going.



PeterH said:


> During inital startup the Soliton Jr. is generating a error that is causing my "Check Engine" likt to flash for the first few seconds. I'm guessing that is while the precharge capacitors are charging up. Then I hear the click as the contactors close and the Check Engine light goes out.


That's not an error, that's the controller letting you know that it is precharging, and that your CEL bulb is working!



PeterH said:


> As I sat there waiting for the notebook to connect to the controller, I ever so gently pressed the throttle to start the engine turning. While the engine spun up to a few hundred RPMs, the Check Engine light started flashing again. Seems that anytime I'm increasing the output from the controller, it generates the error in the form of the flashing check engine light.


Could be lots of things. The log file will tell you what, exactly.



PeterH said:


> I think my minimum battery voltage a no current is too close to the min voltage a full current.
> 
> Not sure what to consider the min voltage under no load or full load for a CALB 130 Ah cell so I'll post a question on another forum to find out.


That depends on whether you subscribe to the top, bottom or no balance schools of battery (mis)management. To start things off, though, you can set the min. voltage at zero current to something like 2.9V per cell if top balanced or 2.5V per cell if bottom balanced. Not balancing is not recommended, but I'm not a battery manufacturer, so...



PeterH said:


> Throttle setting 3/35%


That's not much throw on your throttle. Try to arrange things (mechanically, that is) so throttle covers a wider span. At least get it above 50%.



PeterH said:


> Tachometer 2 ppt


Ah - here's the source of your error. You have the tachometer input enabled but judging by the above comments concerning the tach sensor in the motor, the controller isn't receiving any pulses. The controller will now throw an error whenever the tach input is enabled and motor current exceeds a certain amperage for a certain amount of time without seeing any tach pulses - this is to let you know your tach sensor isn't working!


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## PeterH (Mar 20, 2009)

Tesseract said:


> That's not much throw on your throttle. Try to arrange things (mechanically, that is) so throttle covers a wider span. At least get it above 50%.


Yes, I wasn't happy with that amount of throw either... I'm using the original throttle cable. I'll re-think the mechanics of the link and see what I can do to increase the travel of the throttle sensor arm.




Tesseract said:


> Ah - here's the source of your error. You have the tachometer input enabled but judging by the above comments concerning the tach sensor in the motor, the controller isn't receiving any pulses. The controller will now throw an error whenever the tach input is enabled and motor current exceeds a certain amperage for a certain amount of time without seeing any tach pulses - this is to let you know your tach sensor isn't working!


That makes sense. I'll query my local vendor who installed the sensor within the motor. He has a scope we can use to see what is actually being put out (if anything!) by the tech sensor. Sure hope we don't have to pull the motor to fix something! I tried to design the mounts so I could pull it from below, but sure wouldn't want to test that theory.

Thanks and I'll update this thread soon as I have more info.

Pete


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## Ziggythewiz (May 16, 2010)

So how fast can you go backwards in 5th?


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## PeterH (Mar 20, 2009)

Ziggythewiz said:


> So how fast can you go backwards in 5th?


Just fast enought to make sure it was working... only pulled about 20 amps at 147 VDC during the short test. 

Works SO much better after I swapped the connections on the motor to reverse rotation!


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## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

PeterH said:


> ...
> That makes sense. I'll query my local vendor who installed the sensor within the motor. He has a scope we can use to see what is actually being put out (if anything!) by the tech sensor. ...


Yeah, get a pic of the waveform if you can and post it here.


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## PeterH (Mar 20, 2009)

Saturday morning, June 9, 2012. Investigating why I don't have a tach signal.

My vendor has to drive about 90 miles to bring his oscilloscope here to take a look at the signal the Kostov tach sensor is putting out. Too far... so I dug out my grandfather's old Kenwood 2 channel, 20 MHz scope and opened the manual. Watched a few youtube videos on how to use an oscilloscope and took my best shot.

Here is a shot of the scope and the trace. Sorry for the quality of the trace but I had to manually hold the trottle to run the Soliton with one hand and snap the pic with the other. 










But based on the settings and what I see, it looks like the pulse is only worth about 12 or 13 mV
I verified that I have the sensor connected up correctly to the Soliton. You can see below how I connected the probe and the ground to the Soliton.

Let me know if you see anything I have connected incorrectly. I left it all connected but shut down so I can reproduce the test if I need to.

Thanks,
Pete


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## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

PeterH said:


> ...But based on the settings and what I see, it looks like the pulse is only worth about 12 or 13 mV...


That waveform is not what I expected. If Kostov uses an inductive coil type sensor I would expect to see a pulse that goes positive (or negative) as a magnet approaches then negative (or positive) as the magnet recedes. The amplitude should also be a lot higher than 12mV, too. 

I suspect something is hooked up wrong or that the scope is way out of whack. Use the scope's "calibration" signal to make sure a 1V/1kHz square wave actually reads as such.


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## PeterH (Mar 20, 2009)

Tesseract said:


> Use the scope's "calibration" signal to make sure a 1V/1kHz square wave actually reads as such.


If I had a signal generator I'd be happy to do that. 

Meanwhile, I've gotten further information that suggests the gap between the sensor and the shaft should be about .040 inches. I also spoke with the person that installed the tach sensor and he is fairly certain the gap is much greater than .040.

My task for the rest of the day is to put the EV on the lift and see if I can use a video inspection camera and put an eye on the sensor. Then I can decide if I need to pull the motor or not. Hoping not, but all indications are that I'll be pulling the motor some time VERY soon. 

Just had a thought... bet I can rig up an arduino circuit quickly to play signal generator!

I'll update this thread later today after I have some more solid information.

Thanks,
Pete


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## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

PeterH said:


> If I had a signal generator I'd be happy to do that.


Take a closer look at your scope... just under the screen is a calibration signal 

Pretty much all scopes have one.


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## PeterH (Mar 20, 2009)

Using a simple program for an Arduino Mega board I've been able to demonstrate that my oscilloscope is accurately painting an image of the signal it is observing.

Which further supports the idea that there is something wrong with the tach sensor installed in my Kostov motor.

Aparently the entire end of the motor face was replaced with one that contained the sensor. That suggests that the gap for the sensor was factory set.

Pulling the entire drive line just to adjust or replace the sensor is, to say the least, hard to imagine. Especially when I consider how much work it was to fit the adapter onto the shaft of the motor in the first place. This adapter is a keyed press fit. That meant several hours of careful tapping with a wooden mallet to get it on.

So for the moment, I'll wait a couple of days to see if anyone from Kostov or whoever he got the sensor from responds to our questions BEFORE I consider spending several days pulling everything apart.

Pete


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## PeterH (Mar 20, 2009)

Tesseract said:


> Take a closer look at your scope... just under the screen is a calibration signal
> 
> Pretty much all scopes have one.


Nuts, wish I'd have seen this before I dug out all that gear!  Still, the more I use the scope, the more I learn about it so it was a useful exercise.

Thanks,
Pete


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## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

In another post you mention that the tach sensor on the motor has 3 wires... is that correct? If so, how do you have it wired? Weren't there any instructions or at least a description of the sensor with the motor?


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## PeterH (Mar 20, 2009)

Tesseract said:


> In another post you mention that the tach sensor on the motor has 3 wires... is that correct? If so, how do you have it wired? Weren't there any instructions or at least a description of the sensor with the motor?


I'm not aware of any instructions that came with the assembly. Apparently when my local vendor ordered the upgrade from another stateside Kostov vendor, he got a complete endplate for the motor that contained the sensor. I was overseas at the time and didn't see him do the installation.

From the sensor, a Black wire is connected to the Tach terminal, a Brown wire is connected to the S12V terminal and then there is a third Blue wire connected to the SGND wire. Those wiring instructions came from my local vendor that installed the upgrade. I've heard the same instructions from another user who also was never able to get it to work with his Soliton. Hence my other post asking if anyone has ever gotten this to work.  

I wonder if there is a need for a pull-up resistor somewhere in this... I'm hoping someone from Kostov will respond to a query my vendor sent today.

Thanks,
Pete


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## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

PeterH said:


> ....From the sensor, a Black wire is connected to the Tach terminal, a Brown wire is connected to the S12V terminal and then there is a third Blue wire connected to the SGND wire. Those wiring instructions came from my local vendor that installed the upgrade. I've heard the same instructions from another user who also was never able to get it to work with his Soliton. Hence my other post asking if anyone has ever gotten this to work.
> 
> I wonder if there is a need for a pull-up resistor somewhere in this... I'm hoping someone from Kostov will respond to a query my vendor sent today.
> ...


*groan*

Yes, this type of sensor needs either a pullup or a pulldown resistor. Try 1k from TACH to S12V first and if that doesn't work then move over to SGND.


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## TigerNut (Dec 18, 2009)

Tesseract said:


> *groan*
> 
> Yes, this type of sensor needs either a pullup or a pulldown resistor. Try 1k from TACH to S12V first and if that doesn't work then move over to SGND.


Check out page 12-14 of the datasheet at the bottom of this page... they have the right color wires, anyway (both the NPN and the PNP open-collector sensors, still have to try the resistor both ways)
http://kostov-motors.com/tractionmotors/kostovevmotors%28ac-dc%29/controllersandmotoraccessories/motorrpmsensor/


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## PeterH (Mar 20, 2009)

Tesseract said:


> *groan*
> 
> Yes, this type of sensor needs either a pullup or a pulldown resistor. Try 1k from TACH to S12V first and if that doesn't work then move over to SGND.


Progress!

I added a 1K resister between TACH and S12V and now I get a nice square pulse worth about .6V. However, the trace appears below the zero reference. The sweep time in this image is set to 2 mS and the Volts/Div = .5.










This isn't near the required minimum of 4 volts. Would changing the resistance in the pull up resister change that?

Thanks,
Pete


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## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

TigerNut said:


> Check out page 12-14 of the datasheet at the bottom of this page... they have the right color wires, anyway (both the NPN and the PNP open-collector sensors, still have to try the resistor both ways)
> http://kostov-motors.com/tractionmotors/kostovevmotors%28ac-dc%29/controllersandmotoraccessories/motorrpmsensor/


Good catch! I somehow missed that when I checked Kostov's site. 

The specific part number - E2A-S08KS02-WP-C1 - indicates this is a "standard sensing distance" shielded sensor with an NPN-NO output. 




PeterH said:


> Progress!
> 
> I added a 1K resister between TACH and S12V and now I get a nice square pulse worth about .6V. However, the trace appears below the zero reference. The sweep time in this image is set to 2 mS and the Volts/Div = .5.
> ...


According to the graphs on p6 of the datasheet (link above), the sensing distance for this model sensor depends on the target material, but ranges from approximately 0.8mm to 2mm. Too close or too far and the output won't look right.

It's not possible for this sensor to output a negative going pulse; you probably connected the ground clip to S12V instead of SGND, is all.


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## PeterH (Mar 20, 2009)

Tesseract said:


> It's not possible for this sensor to output a negative going pulse; you probably connected the ground clip to S12V instead of SGND, is all.


I was certain that I had connected the ground clip to SGND so before I responded this morning, I went out to check. At the same time I fired up the scope, let it warm up and the switched on the EV.

This time I noticed something different.

1. Once the scope was warmed up I adjusted the trace to sit right on zero.

2. The first time I ran the test, I switched on the EV and the trace remained on 0. BUT soon as I manually applied pressure to the throttle the trace jumped up to .7 volts! Then the trace of the signal went to 0 from the .7. Apparently, last night, I didn't see that shift of the trace and had adjusted it back to zero which accounts for the seemingly negative going 
signal.

3. I shut off the EV and re-checked the scope to make sure it was at zero on the scale. It was. Soon as I switched on the EV for a second run at the test, it immediately jumped up to .7 V and the pulse trace dropped to zero and of course, has the same duration as before. This minor difference in the trace immediately going to .7 V can probably be accounted for by a capacitor retaining a charge during the short time I had the EV off.

This suggests that the sensor is a normally closed switch that is opening with each pulse. 

I'm wondering if the basic wiring is wrong or if something else is configured incorrectly. Thoughts?

This image just tries to capture how the test is being conducted and my interpretation of the results.


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## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

PeterH said:


> ...
> 2. The first time I ran the test, I switched on the EV and the trace remained on 0. BUT soon as I manually applied pressure to the throttle the trace jumped up to .7 volts! Then the trace of the signal went to 0 from the .7. Apparently, last night, I didn't see that shift of the trace and had adjusted it back to zero which accounts for the seemingly negative going
> signal....


The only thing I can think of that would cause this is if the sensor is a PNP type, instead of an NPN as claimed. It doesn't hurt to wire it up the other way so try moving the 1k resistor from S12V to SGND and see if you get pulses that span 12V, rather than ~0.7V.


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## TigerNut (Dec 18, 2009)

In addition to that - the spec sheet says the load current range is 3 to 100mA, so you're at the low end of the range with your 1k resistor. You could try going down to 470 or even 220 ohms to get closer to the middle of the range.


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## PeterH (Mar 20, 2009)

Ok, new test results.

I changed to a 2.1K resister. Didn't have a 2.2K available. But that is certainly close enough and I understand the need to reduce the load current on the sensor, so good move.

With the new resister in place:

1. I tried connecting the resister between the TACH and SGND terminals. I had to change the scope settings to get a signal at all, but it was a positive going signal, but at only .5 mV. A very low signal and at that degree of sensitivity, it is a very noisy signal.

2. I went back to the TACH to S12V terminals. I'm back to the same before except the new signal voltage level is around .55 V with a negative going pulse, back to zero.

I wonder if there is a fairly simple circuit that could be designed to grab the .55 V negative going signal, invert it to a positive going signal and amplify it to perhaps +5V.

Thoughts?

Thanks,
Pete


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## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

PeterH said:


> ...I wonder if there is a fairly simple circuit that could be designed to grab the .55 V negative going signal, invert it to a positive going signal and amplify it to perhaps +5V....


Yes, there is an extremely simple circuit to convert this signal - comprising one Schottky rectifier with the cathode pointing away from the TACH input and the same 1k pullup resistor from TACH to SGND - but that doesn't address the actual problem, here, which is that the sensor isn't working as expected in the first place.

You should be seeing a negative going pulse that goes from ~12V down to 0V, not from 0.6V. Either something is wrong with the output transistor or else this is how the sensor behaves when the target is not within the specified sensing range.

EDIT: make sure there is actually 12V present at the S12V terminal - this terminal is supplied via a PTC fuse that trips at a little over 100mA (depends on temperature). If the voltage is pulled down to ~1V or so then try removing the blue wire from S12V and see if the voltage pops back up to ~12V or so.


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## PeterH (Mar 20, 2009)

I just tested the voltages on the Soliton Jr. after power up but before any throttle input.

1. Between S12V and SGND = 12.57 v

2. Between TACH and SGND = 7.62 v

3. Between S12V and TACH = 4.59 v


Another bit of information: The status lights on the Soliton. Green comes on during initiation of the controller but soon as the contactors are closed, it goes out.

The Red is blinking rapidly. I checked the Aux system voltage and it has a solid 13.5+ volts. I don't really understand the second possible cause of this error that is mentioned in the manual but I've listed the current settings at the end of this post.

The first time I connected my notebook to look at the errors being reported, it was showing the precharge timeout error. I cleared it and cycled the system again. No errors showed up this time but that blinking red status LED suggests something else is causing a problem. 

Otherwise, the Soliton seems to be working fine or as fine as I can detect because I've not applied more than a few amps to turn over the motor during testing.

So at the moment, as soon as I power up the system, the voltage on the TACH terminal goes to roughly .6 or .7 v.

Thanks,
Pete


Model Soliton Jr 
Serial number 05-11-9585
Version 1.5.2
Build date May 21 2012
Mode Running 
Throttle setting 3/35% 
Power mode Performance 
Brake input Act. high (12V) 
Tachometer 2 ppt 
I1 Off (100%) 
I2 Off (100%) 
I3 Off (100%) 
O1 RPM (tach) 
O2 Off 
O3 Off 
Throttle deadband 5% 
Half throttle current 50% 
Maximum motor speed 3500
Idle motor speed 0
Idle motor max current 0A 
PID-loop 30, 20, 30% 
Maximum motor voltage at reverse 48V 
Maximum throttle in reverse 50% 
Minimum gauge voltage 100V 
Maximum gauge voltage 120V 
RPM output 2ppt 
Minimum battery voltage at no current 130V 
Minimum battery voltage at full current 120V 
Maximum battery current 350A 
Maximum motor voltage 160V 
Maximum motor current 350A 
Maximum motor power 100kW 
Slewrate 200A/s


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## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

PeterH said:


> I just tested the voltages on the Soliton Jr. after power up but before any throttle input.
> 
> 1. Between S12V and SGND = 12.57 v
> 
> ...


The Soliton Jr is providing the right output voltage, but for some reason the output transistor (or it's protection zener) is partially on. Makes no sense, even considering usual failure mechanisms.



PeterH said:


> Another bit of information: The status lights on the Soliton. Green comes on during initiation of the controller but soon as the contactors are closed, it goes out.


Sounds like the assembly tech flipped the wires to the red and green LEDs. You can send it back under warranty (again) if you like. I will be having a little chat with the production crew on Monday about this.


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## PeterH (Mar 20, 2009)

Tesseract said:


> The Soliton Jr is providing the right output voltage, but for some reason the output transistor (or it's protection zener) is partially on. Makes no sense, even considering usual failure mechanisms.
> 
> Sounds like the assembly tech flipped the wires to the red and green LEDs. You can send it back under warranty (again) if you like. I will be having a little chat with the production crew on Monday about this.


If you think it needs to be looked at, I'll gladly return it again. I'd rather do it right the first time than have to do it again later. Should I send Aymee an email to arrange the warrenty return?

Thanks,
Pete


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## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

PeterH said:


> If you think it needs to be looked at, I'll gladly return it again. I'd rather do it right the first time than have to do it again later. Should I send Aymee an email to arrange the warrenty return?
> 
> Thanks,
> Pete


It's strictly cosmetic. If you want to have it changed then we will take care of it. Don't go straight to Aymee, though - send an email to our support address first. Aymee is not the "decider", so to speak.


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## TigerNut (Dec 18, 2009)

PeterH said:


> Ok, new test results.
> 
> I changed to a 2.1K resister. Didn't have a 2.2K available. But that is certainly close enough and I understand the need to reduce the load current on the sensor, so good move.
> 
> ...


Hey Pete,
I messed up the first time I did the math and edited my post to reflect that... it may be that your circuit is not pulling enough current to get the output to go 'high'. With the S12V current limit at 100mA as per Tesseract's note, you could safely try going for 20 to 30 mA... that would mean a 470 or 390 ohm load resistance.

Based on your previous result that may still only get you a couple volts of signal... but if you have those resistance values available then it's worth trying. If you don't then you can parallel two or three 1k's.


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## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

I got a reply from Kostov and they confirm that this is what happens if the sensor is too far away from the sensing targets. So, time to pull everything apart, I'm afraid.


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## PeterH (Mar 20, 2009)

Just for giggles I tried a 470 ohm resister. It increased the positive voltage to .8 v. Wanted to try that before I started the disassembly job. 

My biggest fear of this effort was pulling the adapter from the motor shaft. However, looking back at my pics this morning, I noticed that (of course!) I have the pressure plate mounting screws to use with a gear puller. Meaning, removing the adapter shouldn't be the near-impossible task I thought it would be.

I was anticipating this... so much so, I even bought a transmission jack last week. Hoping I can pull the motor and trans out as one piece, from beneath the EV. Otherwise, the disassembly job becomes much larger due to all of the wiring for the bms.

I believe I'll be sending the Soliton back for minor repairs in the next day or so. That gives me time to deal with the sensor adjustment.

Still hoping to have this back together and on the road by the 4th of July.

Thanks,
Pete


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## PeterH (Mar 20, 2009)

July 5, 2012 Update.

BMS is still not working. Drove to town today to make the top board in for repairs. I accidently connected cells out of order and it takes only a second to burn out one of the cell monitoring circuits on the centralized mini BMS. Hopefully the bad one can be bypassed and I can use the board. Otherwise, it is another $250 to replace it. 

Decided to go 'BMS Free' for a few days. Charged the pack up to 'full' and loaded up my son for a test drive into town. It went very well. Took a back road all the way in and didn't have to go over 40 mph. I'm drawing less than 100 amps at 40 to 45 mpgs on the level.

First stop was the local scrap yard to have it weighed. Turns out to weigh 2640 pounds. More than I expected but very reasonable.

Drew 150 amps at 55 mph on the way home. We took the highway for a few miles. At the end of that run, the 'check engine' light was flashing. I suspect the soliton was reaching 65 degrees C and throwing an alarm. It didn't seem to limit me in any way, but I did slow down and take my time for the final 4 miles home.

More to follow.
Pete


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## PeterH (Mar 20, 2009)

I fired off an email to Evnetics tech support about my check-engine light. Had a response almost immediately. Turns out that I still had the soliton set to expect a tach signal. Without the tach signal the controller will throw an error every time. So quick fix to this bit of "operator error".


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## PeterH (Mar 20, 2009)

July 9, 2012. 200 miles on my EV.

My local EV parts vendor did a house-call on Saturday. After a few hours he decided the mini-BMS master board was defective and had to go back. 

Not letting that stop me from using my EV. I have one cell that is weaker than the others and it reaches 3.65 volts before the others do. So when I charge, I monitor the number of amp hours added to the pack and when it reaches what is near full, I start to monitor that one cell manually. The moment it hits 3.65 V I stop the charge. I have the JDL404 set to read 48 Ah when full and the charge is finished. With my 130 Ah pack, that means I'm using only the top half of the available capacity. That gets me to town, a few miles of running around, and home again with 10 or 12 Ah left over. Perfect!

Meanwhile, I'm loving driving my EV! I take the back roads to town so I don't have to go over 45 mph. I tried using the highway the other day and after about 10 minutes at 55 mph, with a line of traffic behind me, I turned off onto my side road just as the Soliton started to signal an error of some sort. Guess I could actually check the web interface, but I'm just assuming it was an over-temp situation. When I opened the hood the Soliton was very warm. I could put my hand on it, but not for long. I've ordered a pump, some 70 degree C tubing and a radiator/tank combo from FrozenCPU.com to put together a cooling system for the Soliton. Once that is in place and working, I'll try the highway again. By then my brushes will be set.

So far, I haven't pulled more than 200 amps from the main pack and normally I'm pulling under 100 amps.

Going to trailer the EV to the local EV Club meeting tomorrow. I'll try to grab a good pic of the finished exterior. I'm still putting the interor back together. Those cheapo pressed board interior panels have to go. Considering going with 1/8 th inch think aluminum panels. I have enough left over to do that... just need to take the time with the plasma cutter and a file to finish it up.

Also considering going to a smaller Aux battery and relocating my DC/DC converter so I have room for the Soliton cooling system and the passenger compartment water heater. But with the weather hitting highs of 90+ F, I'm in no rush to worry about cabin heating. 

Pete


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## PeterH (Mar 20, 2009)

Trailered my EV to the club meeting last night. Since it was the only auto EV there, it got a good going over by those at the meeting. Seems there is a charity car show on Sunday that the club thinks I should attend. They have an EV category that I can 'compete' in... thinking I might be the only conversion there.

Having my 2 inch lift kit installed on Monday along with new ball joints and an alignent. Since I've NO idea how many miles are on the rig and since the ball joints are likely to be under greater stress with the lift kit in place, it makes sense to have them switched out will they are installing the lift kit. I could do it, but who wants to spend the weekend surrounded by parts when I could be out driving!  I'll post some pics after the car show on Sunday.

Seems I'm providing neighborhood entertainment again. My wife runs a coffee shop and heard this morning, that several of the neighbors were discussing my project last night. 

Thanks,
Pete


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## PeterH (Mar 20, 2009)

July 23, 2012. Just over 500 miles on my EV now. Here is what the "finished" project looks like with the new 2 inch lift kit installed. Going for slightly taller tires later today. 









Over the weekend I added the Soliton cooling system and that makes a HUGE difference in the temp after a long highway drive. Highly recommended!




















Also just got a new trailer hitch for this EV. I have a small trailer that is perfect for hauling loads of firewood down out of the mountains. With my new cooler, driving up there won't be a problem. Only 11 miles away and mostly flat roads with some short, low grades to climb. 

My BMS is still not working. We still don't know why all the cells show green indications but it still sounds the audible alarm when 12 VDC is applied. :-(

Almost time to turn to working further on the interior. Need carpeting and some door panel work. The transmission sure is noisy in 5th gear! Might need to get that rebuilt this winter.

Thanks,
Pete


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## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

I like that little radiator with the filler plug on top - is it a surplus item of unknown provenance or something that can be bought off-the-shelf?


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## Yukon_Shane (Jul 15, 2010)

That's a good lookin' machine Pete. Well done.

I clearly have to do some more work if I'm going to keep up with you


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## PeterH (Mar 20, 2009)

Thanks guys. I'm very happy with the set up. Wondering if it might need a ''relief" valve of some sort like a regular auto radiator. However, if it ever gets that hot I've got other major problems going on so for now, I'm going with the current setup for cooling the Soliton Jr.

The radiator is from FrozenCPU.com. From the invoice:

ex-rad-125 Swiftech MCR120 "Quiet Power" 120mm Radiator w/Reservoir - (MCR120-QP Res) 

Link to the item: http://www.frozencpu.com/products/6...0mm_Radiator_w_Reservoir_-_MCR120-QP_Res.html

Just back from a run to the lumber yard. I have a small trailer that works great with the new hitch I just installed. My power consumption went from a normal 1.7 Ah/mile to about 1.9 Ah/mile. I'm very happy with that minor 'cost'. 

Now it is on to some other issues that are all related to the donar vehicle. I need some capeting to mask the road noise. I need to look at the steering box because it is super sloppy. This vehicle is 21+ years old and the odometer was broken long before I got it so no telling how many miles are on it. The fifth gear in the trans is very noisy but no way to address that other than a rebuild or some carpet to help with the noise.

Also need to add a 12 VDC supply in the cabin for accessories like a GPS because once I switch to taller tires (tomorrow) my speedometer will be way off and I'll want to come up with a 'translation table' of some sort to know my speed accurately. One thing about this small town... the police like to write speeding tickets and I don't want to contribute if I don't have to. 

BMS still out, nothing heard from my local vendor but he was over in Montana all last week on a 'house call' dealing with a conversion he is supporting. Meanwhile, I continue to manually monitor the charge. Soon as my weakest cell hits 3.65 V I kill the charge. 

Oh, weather proofing! I order some auto weather strips on Amazon the other day. I plan to run a strip of it just inside the lip of the hood in an effort to keep rain water out. I"m also going to hang a bit of rubber mat where the top half of the original radiator sat to keep water out of the upper part of the engine bay. I've driven in light rain already and experienced a bit of water penetration. Not suprised since there was nothing really in place to prevent that. My DC/DC is far from weather resistent so I need to keep that dry. Still hoping our friends at Evnetics come up with a purpose-built DC/DC for EVs. 

Pete


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## PeterH (Mar 20, 2009)

I learned/discovered something today that is worth sharing. My centralized version of the mini-bms was reading my cell number 6 at a much higher voltage shortly after starting a charge cycle. Fortunately the bms was holding that one cell at 3.65 volts by putting it into shunting mode while the rest of the pack caught up. However, since I had just started a charge cycle, it didn't make sense that cell 6 was already so far ahead of the other 44 cells.

I switched off the Elcon to give me some time to think about it. That didn't really help so I restarted the charge. This time, cell 6 was reading the same as the rest of the pack... roughly 3.4 volts. What was going on??? Well...

I decided to remove the passenger seat and open the battery box containing the seemingly bad cell. As it turns out, this cell is one with a short (2 inch) length of 00 welding cable connecting two cells within the box. The cable is necessary because part of the vehicle's structural member passes thru the box. Upon closer inspection I noticed that one end of that cable was not flat against the cell terminal. That suggested a loose connection which I was able to easily confirm. This prompted a check of all of my cells throughout all of the boxes. I discovered a few others that were loose enough to be a minor concern.

I have a similar situation with the cells in the battery box on the opposite side of the vehicle which might also explain why cell 43 appears to be weaker than the other cells. Why? Well, I think it is because that little bit of cable is adding to the apparent resistance of the cell which makes it look like it is at a higher voltage than the cells immediately on either side of it.

So, if I had it to do over again, I'd use heavier cables within and between the 5 battery boxes to reduce the resistance between cells as far as possible. If not heavier cables, double cables between boxes or between cells within a box. As it is, I used 00 welding cable throughout the build.

Another problem that has come up is with my aux battery. As it is, the DC/DC is only powered up when the ignition is on and I'm driving. Yet, the BMS, my instrumentation and the BMS cooling fans are powered 100% of the time, from the aux battery. I've been watching the voltage of the aux battery and I'm seeing it hover around 12 volts. I expect it to be much closer to 13.5 if it is fully charged. For the moment, I am just connecting a normal car battery charger to it to boost its charge. I am using a normal starter battery rather than a deep cycle battery. So now I'm on the hunt for a more suitable deep cycle batter, perhaps a physically smaller battery as well. Know of one?

Otherwise, I have just over 1000 miles since July 5th. I just got my first electric bill after charging daily. It was up roughly 15 to 20 dollars from the previous month. Haven't even driven my other vehicles since the EV hit the road!! 

Pete


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## TEV (Nov 25, 2011)

Congratulation !


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## emosun (Jul 21, 2012)

Cool another geo! I got one too!


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## PeterH (Mar 20, 2009)

Tuesday, August 21, 2012. Turned 1500 miles on the EV yesterday. We are in the heat of summer now. Meaning it is in the high 90s sometimes... that's why I like it up here, never too hot.

However, I'm seeing an intermittent error from my Soliton Jr. that I think might be heat related. I have my water cooling system in place and it appears to be working but yesterday, I was on the way to the lake for a quick dip when it started flashing my Check Engine light again. It started after a few minutes of continous 45 mph drawing between 150 and 200 amps from the pack. As soon as I let off the throttle to exit the highway, it stopped. That is why I think it is heat related.

I checked the Soliton's interface web page and it didn't show any errors. If it were a heat problem, would it record an error? I checked the components after we reached our destination and I was able to touch everything without burning my fingers so nothing was too hot to touch.

I think I want to add a light to the dash, or use one of the unused status lights in the instrument cluster to indicate when the cooling system has been switched on. That would at least give me a bit more information.

Regardless, everything is humming along! 

Pete


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## Yukon_Shane (Jul 15, 2010)

PeterH said:


> Tuesday, August 21, 2012. Turned 1500 miles on the EV yesterday. We are in the heat of summer now. Meaning it is in the high 90s sometimes... that's why I like it up here, never too hot.
> 
> However, I'm seeing an intermittent error from my Soliton Jr. that I think might be heat related. I have my water cooling system in place and it appears to be working but yesterday, I was on the way to the lake for a quick dip when it started flashing my Check Engine light again. It started after a few minutes of continous 45 mph drawing between 150 and 200 amps from the pack. As soon as I let off the throttle to exit the highway, it stopped. That is why I think it is heat related.
> 
> ...


 
Hey Pete,

I've been thinking about adding a dash light to let me know when the cooling system is on as well. More recently though I've realizing that it coudn't actually tell me if the cooling system was working only that the switch was on so now I'm thinking more along the lines of a controller temperature gauge.

Let us know what you come up with.


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## green caveman (Oct 2, 2009)

Quick question. What color wires are we looking for from the ignition switch? It's black and blue on the column but we haven't found any in the engine compartment that go open/closed with the key. Any direction you can provide would be appreciated in saving time tracing wiring.

Thanks,


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## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

PeterH said:


> ...I checked the Soliton's interface web page and it didn't show any errors. If it were a heat problem, would it record an error?...


I could probably do a better job of explaining this in the manual, but generally speaking, only errors that cause the controller to shut down (or not start up) are logged in the persistent error list. All errors are reported via logger, so if you want to see what is happening in real time you need to watch it (preferably not while driving... ).


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## PeterH (Mar 20, 2009)

Yesterday (December 29, 2012), after fewer than 4000 miles on my EV, my 4KW TCCharger died. I've started a thread on the subject over in the Charging forum.

Up till yesterday, my EV has been working well, even in the 20 to 30 degree F. weather and all the snow we've had. Batteries being kept warm in the garage with my Flexi-Watt, Arduino controlled warming system... cabin heating system working 'ok' with the 1500 watt block heater providing hot water to the original plumbing... 

But for the time being, while I work out a fix, my EV is off the road. 

Pete


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## Yukon_Shane (Jul 15, 2010)

PeterH said:


> Yesterday (December 29, 2012), after fewer than 4000 miles on my EV, my 4KW TCCharger died. I've started a thread on the subject over in the Charging forum.
> 
> Up till yesterday, my EV has been working well, even in the 20 to 30 degree F. weather and all the snow we've had. Batteries being kept warm in the garage with my Flexi-Watt, Arduino controlled warming system... cabin heating system working 'ok' with the 1500 watt block heater providing hot water to the original plumbing...
> 
> ...


Hey Pete,

Sorry to hear the bad news. What a bummer to have something like a charger take you off the road.

I find the lack of quality charger options one of my biggest frustrations with my electric conversion experience. I've got an Elcon charger as well and I've been wanted to change it's charge profile almost from day one but of course I can't do that without sending it back to the factory. More recently I've been wanting to add more batteries to my pack but again, I'd have to have my charger reprogrammed. 

So I've been looking around for a programmable option with reasonable power and the options are pretty limited. I don't really like the design or price of the Manzanita products, elcon isn't programable or have good support, the Brusa chargers are pretty low powered for what they cost (even at the current discounted EVTV price) and have no support, and the EVSource/Netgain charger is pretty expensive and more charger then I really need. None of them are isolated or UL certified to be plugged into my house.

So I've decided to bite the bullet and order the EMW charger kit and build it myself. For $1,000 I figure I can't go wrong. It won't be isolated or UL certified but non of the commercially available chargers are either. I'm not totally confident in going this route but I honestly think it's probably the best options available right now. 

I'll let you know how it turns out when I get it all together. 

Likely as not I'll finish the charger just in time for Evnetics to announce that they have developed a new charger that is exactly what I'm looking for.


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## PeterH (Mar 20, 2009)

Hi Shane,

Again, we are on the very same page with our opinion on the state of chargers. 

I saw at least one of the EMW chargers at EVCON. That specific one was a pre-built unit... and I think it was soon to be returned for repairs or adjustment. Must have been adjustment because it was working at the time and I don't recall exacly why the owner was planning to send it back.

I really hope that kit works for you so please let me know how it works out. I've never tackled a high power kit of any sort like that, only much smaller kits that ran off of 9V DC or a few AA cells. I've thought about it, but decided against it for now.

I'm really hoping that this thread might shed some light on the Elcon/TCCharger history. It seems like they are the same charger but with different names. Very confusing...

I'd be happy for the short term if I could just pull together a 'bad-boy' charger that I had to physically monitor during charges... anything to recharge the pack so I could continue to use my EV.

I started looking at the Manzanita chargers and might actually order one if I can land a job any time soon.  They have the output I'd want. The Brusa has too small of an output current... I've become spoiled being able to recharge in 90 minutes after a trip to town and back.

Pete


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## TEV (Nov 25, 2011)

http://www.evalbum.com/tech/bonn_charger.html


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## TEV (Nov 25, 2011)

http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showthread.php/variable-voltage-battery-charger-48691p6.html


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## PeterH (Mar 20, 2009)

Update Jan 5, 2013. 

It has been below 20 degrees F. each night for the past week or so. I discovered last night that my aux battery had died sometime in the past few days. I've been keeping a charger on it but I'm guessing it is time for a new marine grade aux battery.

When I restored 12 VDC to the system my battery temp monitoring system came back on and indicated the cells were at about 32 degees F. That wasn't a problem since my charger died and is now out of the EV for repairs or replacement.

Soon as the monitoring system came on, it also started the warming system. Within 90 minutes the battery boxes were back up to about 45 F. where I like to keep them.

So as far as I am concerned, that battery warming system I'm using is great success.  Just wish my charger were doing as well!

Check out my 'Dead TCCharger' thread over in the Battery/Charging forum if you'd like any more details about that charger... 

Pete


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## PeterH (Mar 20, 2009)

After just about 8200 miles, I had to pull the motor to deal with a brush issue. While it was all apart, I took the flywheel and pressure plate to the local machine shop to have the balance checked. I have had a vibration at low rpms since I put it on the road. As it turns out, the machinist balanced it again and didn't charge me for it because he said it was so out of balance that he felt bad about it. As it turns out, it did fix my low rpm vibration issue.

I've only taken a short drive so far, but I think the brush issue was a stuck brush that was causing my loss of power. I tried to clean it up and blew out the motor with lots of air so I'm hoping I've solved the problem for a few more thousand miles. I do have a spare set of brushes now...... they took forever to get to me so glad to have a set on hand.

Unfortunately, my effort to install a new tach sensor failed. The new one I bought was just too large to fit within the Kostov. So I tried to better gap the Kostov sensor which also failed. So, I've some up with a new idea. I don't have an aux shaft on this motor but the forward end of the shaft is accessable and it has a 1/4" diameter hole in the center of the shaft that is about 1/8" deep. I plan to to machine a short piece of aluminum bar stock so it fits on the end of the shaft, drill through the aluminum shaft extension and embed a piece of mild steel. The challenge is to attach the aluminum shaftt extension to the steel shaft of the motor.

I "just" have to come up with the right method to attach my little extension. But once installed, I should be able to mount the newer sensor to the front of the motor and use it as my tach signal source.

Seems my MiniBMS has developed a problem. I had to disable it today just so I could enable the Elcon charger. Oddly, the person who sold it to me, is now pushing a different BMS...


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## nrawal (Jul 16, 2018)

Hello,

I have a soliton one and during my testing I am getting the error Pre-charge timeout, no voltage, (Precharge timeout, no voltage [0x00, 0x0000]). Have you ever experienced this error when you were using the soliton one? Do you have any advice on how to go about solving this error, my controller mode is currently in Pre-charge Timeout, No Voltage.﻿ How do I change the mode of my controller to running.


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