# Need help breaking the gasoline addiction for high performance



## ExoticHunter (May 3, 2011)

*Need help breaking gasoline addiction for high performance*

Hello, I am addressing the experienced members of this forum to help me figure out a few problems that in the past have deterred me from fulfilling my goal of building a high performance electric vehicle. I am ready to plan my next build and I am hoping your knowledge will overcome my unfamiliarity with EV technology and its cost.

First, despite my strong environmental views and attention to efficiency while designing and building high performance cars, I have never been able to figure out how to match the performance of a fossil fueled powertrain for equal or less money. For example; I am considering a 2000 Corvette to serve as the foundation for my next project. A stock 2000 Corvette takes on average 13 seconds to complete the ¼ mile. Approximately $2000 in relatively simple upgrades would get me to around 11.5 seconds in the ¼ mile. Assuming I would perform the more challenging task of installing the electric powertrain, what components would be required to achieve 11.5 seconds in the ¼ mile? What would the approximate cost of those components be compared to $4000 (sale of the gas motor +its upgrades) for the gas motor.

Second, all the information I can find implies that an electric vehicle must be recharged after a few full power runs or performance will begin to decline. As you know it is customary for auto enthusiasts to cruise for hours straight including attending several venues where they may show their vehicle or test their vehicle’s abilities. I am worried that the technology is not affordable, if even available, to support an evening of cruising say 100 miles including many impromptu 0-60 sprints plus a few ¼ mile runs.

If my suspicions are correct and comparable performance does cost significantly more to achieve with an EV. How long will it take to offset the additional investment in fuel savings? Continuing with the Corvette example, the 100 mile journey would be the maximum use for that vehicle each week. That evening would cost me about $25 in gas. How much would my electrical bill increase to supply the charge for that same journey?

It is very important to me to continue participating in my hobby while embracing the most environmentally responsible techniques available. Thank you in advance for participating in this discussion which will without doubt help others with similar questions.


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## TigerNut (Dec 18, 2009)

The high performance gasoline fueled internal combustion engine has benefited from over a hundred years and countless man-hours and dollars of refinement. The reason you can buy $2000 of upgrades that get you 50 percent more power (if only for 11 seconds at a time) is that there are thousands of others that have done the same before you, and you're benefiting from the economies of scale as well. Even on the ICE front, if you step away from the mainstream engines and drivelines, you quickly get into $100+ per-hour machining costs for even trivial widgets, and your $2000 upgrade would cost you ten times as much.

The electric high performance scene has been on the fringe for almost as long as gasoline engines have been the mainstay of automotive propulsion. It's only been in the last few years that battery technology and solid-state electronics have improved to the point where you can transmit enough power electrically to touch an internal combustion engine's performance.

Notice I didn't mention 'motor'. As others have remarked, the motor is not the critical thing. It's the battery and the controller that determine how much power is available at a given instant. The motor just converts the power from electric to mechanical means, assuming it can handle the voltage and current applied without arcing or melting.

In an electric car, the battery also functions as your chemical energy store, which kind of confounds the issue since the rate at which it can discharge defines one of the limits on the available power, while the overall capacity defines how far you can try to go. A big battery that can only be discharged slowly will get you a long distance, but not at high speed.

It's hard to generalize cost recovery time. For a specific car you can look at the conversion cost and how long the battery will last (i.e. how many charges) given a certain load profile, and compare that cost to the operating cost of an equivalent ICE system.

One thing is that while battery prices are fairly close to the same over the entire world, the cost of gasoline has probably a 3:1 ratio if you compare European or Asian markets to the US. So the operating cost recovery equation isn't the same depending on where you are.

All in all, right now I think that it's tough to justify a high performance conversion based on cost. You have to do it because you want to.


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## DavidDymaxion (Dec 1, 2008)

*Re: Need help breaking gasoline addiction for high performance*

Sounds like you want it all, speed, range, and low cost. You can't maximize all 3 at the same time.

Once thought is how wedded are you to the Corvette (a dream car of mine!)? If you go the kit car route you can be ~1000 lbs lighter. Less weight = free performance. If you really want to do the Corvette, consider plastic windows, race seats, stripping the interior, etc. Aero mods can help, too, like blocking the radiator opening, Mooneyes hub caps, belly pan, etc.


ExoticHunter said:


> Hello, I am addressing the experienced members of this forum to help me figure out a few problems that in the past have deterred me from fulfilling my goal of building a high performance electric vehicle. I am ready to plan my next build and I am hoping your knowledge will overcome my unfamiliarity with EV technology and its cost.
> 
> First, despite my strong environmental views and attention to efficiency while designing and building high performance cars, I have never been able to figure out how to match the performance of a fossil fueled powertrain for equal or less money. For example; I am considering a 2000 Corvette to serve as the foundation for my next project. A stock 2000 Corvette takes on average 13 seconds to complete the ¼ mile. Approximately $2000 in relatively simple upgrades would get me to around 11.5 seconds in the ¼ mile. Assuming I would perform the more challenging task of installing the electric powertrain, what components would be required to achieve 11.5 seconds in the ¼ mile? What would the approximate cost of those components be compared to $4000 (sale of the gas motor +its upgrades) for the gas motor.
> 
> ...


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## ExoticHunter (May 3, 2011)

*Re: Need help breaking gasoline addiction for high performance*



DavidDymaxion said:


> Sounds like you want it all, speed, range, and low cost. You can't maximize all 3 at the same time.


David I understand, just as there are with the ICE, compromises must be made. My theoretical gas powered Vette must sacrifice range / fuel economy for power. And sacrifices with both speed and range would be made because I can’t afford the most exotic components. I don’t expect to build a 9 sec. (1/4) EV with a 400 mile range for $4000+ donor. I am however, trying to build a street performance EV for similar cost to that of an equally performing gas powered vehicle. 

Please, anyone correct me because I hope I am wrong. It appears that the technology and infrastructure is just not there to match ICE performance dollar for dollar. 

If this is true I am going to ask the EV performance wizards here to help me put together a list of components needed to meet the performance goals stated in my original post so I can establish a realistic idea of how much more equivalent performance will cost.
Thanks


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## Ziggythewiz (May 16, 2010)

*Re: Need help breaking gasoline addiction for high performance*



ExoticHunter said:


> It appears that the technology and infrastructure is just not there to match ICE performance dollar for dollar.


It sounds like you just want us to say that electrics cost too much, and can't match ICE in budget performance. 

The fact of the matter is, you're taking an ICE vehicle, and wanting to convert it to high performance EV, for less than the cost of an ICE upgrade. That's obviously not possible, as any budget savings from an EV only come from reduced maintenance and fuel costs over years of use.

I spent more than your proposed $4000 on my EV, and certainly don't have a 11.5 sec car, but I do expect it to save me money as the miles rack up in the 1000's.

If you want EV savings you won't find it 1/4 mile at a time.


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## ExoticHunter (May 3, 2011)

Ziggythewiz said:


> ExoticHunter said:
> 
> 
> > It appears that the technology and infrastructure is just not there to match ICE performance dollar for dollar.
> ...


If might come across that way if you don’t quote the statement as I wrote it.



ExoticHunter said:


> Please, anyone correct me because *I hope I am wrong*. It appears that the technology and infrastructure is just not there to match ICE performance dollar for dollar.


What I am saying is, based on what little I can find on the net and the feedback I am receiving here, I am getting the impression that electric power can’t match the ICE in performance / build cost. I am actually pleading to the EV community to say it can be done and to advise me on how to make it happen. I want to build a performance EV. Why would I hope it will cost me more money?
So while I still remain hopeful that someone will enter this discussion to tell me how to build a street performance EV for similar cost to that of an equally performing gas powered vehicle. I am willing to accept if it can’t be done and committed enough to consider a costlier build and recuperating some of my investment in cheaper operational costs over time.

_I joined this forum hoping the high performance faction of the EV community would embrace a fellow auto enthusiast with a strong desire to convert. Who in turn could help those who followed do the same. I am going to make another *plea for help* putting together a list of components needed to meet the performance goals stated in my original post so I can establish a realistic idea of how much more equivalent performance will cost._


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## TigerNut (Dec 18, 2009)

Ok. Start with this: You want, let's say, a 200 HP battery (remember, the battery is your engine, the motor is the transmission). So that requires 200 kW electrical power, to allow for electrical to mechanical conversion loss through the controller and motor. 
Assume you are using a 200V capable motor to keep the current within some reasonable limit, and about a 250V pack voltage. Therefore you will draw 800 battery amps (peak) and if you use, let's say, 100A-h cells you're using 8C discharge, which is maybe conservative. Anyway, the nominal pack voltage of these cells is 3.2V, and allowing for some sag under load, you'll need at least 80 of these to make up your pack.

80 Thundersky (Winston) cells, from one of the local advertisers, cost you 92 euros each for a total cost of 7200 euros, give or take. That's a little over $10k. Then add an appropriate Kostov or ADC motor, a Zilla or Soliton controller, and you're in for another $6000 or so. 

The downside of the 24kW-h battery you have just built, is that it won't give you a great deal of range, but it does already weigh a decent amount - each cell is 7.5 pounds so 80 of them add 600 pounds to your car.

The rule of thumb for gasoline usage is 0.55 pounds per horsepower per hour. 600 pounds of gasoline would allow you to to develop 200 HP for about 5.5 hours; since you're running (hypothetically) your 200HP battery at an 8C discharge rate, you're going to get about 5 to 8 minutes out of it at 200HP before it needs charging.

The 200hp battery and the rest of this setup will definitely move your Corvette with authority comparable to a pretty decent engine... but the cost is what it is, and the stored energy available in today's best cells is a fraction of the chemical energy available in gasoline, so the range is not going to be what you're used to, if you drive at high power levels.

The difference is that the cost of replacing the energy in your battery is a fraction of the cost of filling the tank in your Corvette.

I haven't built an EV myself, and the values I've chosen for battery capacity and discharge rates might be off a little, but the energy content and power delivery math is pretty straightforward. If you want electric car performance that rivals what you can do with an internal combustion engine, then you need to put in the money.


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## TigerNut (Dec 18, 2009)

You need to take the long view... Our local utility charges $0.08 per kW-h. So recharging a 24 kW-h pack from 80% (20 kW-h) DOD costs $1.60. Assuming you can do 1000 cycles on the pack (which, if you're running 8C peak discharge, might be possible), you will have spent $1600 on the electricity, in addition to the $10k purchase price, so a total of $11600 for 20MW-h of electricity in your car.

One US gallon of gasoline has energy content equivalent to 33.4 kW-h of electrical energy, according to Wikipedia. Taking into account the thermodynamic efficiency of a modern engine, we can guesstimate that 10 kW-h of that energy might make it to the drivetrain. So you would need 20,000 gallons of gasoline, at a cost of $3.75 per gallon, totalling $75,000, to equal the total capability of the electric pack. The difference is that with an electric system, you spend your money up front.

Note that in the case where the gasoline equivalent energy actually takes into account the approximate thermodynamic efficiency, you still end up spending $25k in gasoline to get the equivalent energy to $11600 in the electric battery.


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## GerhardRP (Nov 17, 2009)

Look for other Corvette conversions like http://www.evalbum.com/2888
That one gets an 11 mile range with a 6.4 kWhr pack [accounting for Peukert]. The proposed 25kWhr pack then would give a 40 or so mile range.


TigerNut said:


> .
> Assume you are using a 200V capable motor to keep the current within some reasonable limit, and about a 250V pack voltage. Therefore you will draw 800 battery amps (peak) and if you use, let's say, 100A-h cells you're using 8C discharge, which is maybe conservative. Anyway, the nominal pack voltage of these cells is 3.2V, and allowing for some sag under load, you'll need at least 80 of these to make up your pack.


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## DIYguy (Sep 18, 2008)

Welcome to the forum exotic.

What I find most puzzling about your quest, is that you want to justify a hobby/interest or perhaps better termed, luxury with respect to return on investment. Why do you look for things like cost of electricity vs gasoline and payback time? Are you really an environmentalist cruising 100+ miles for the sake of peer time and hobby and racing along the way?

Yes, u can build a car to do 100+ miles. Yes, u can build one to do 11.5 quarter miles. Can u do it for the cost of selling off the effluent of a gas powered/designed sports car? No. I would say, move on, forgetaboutit.

If you have veritable interest in building a nice EV ride for performance or range or environmental issues or the best you can do with all of these things in mind...then dig in, we'll help you. Fact is... ur not an EV guy... at least not yet. Right now, ur a guy, like many others, who look for reasons not to do something. Maybe well work on you some more... 

All the best mate.


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## Brute Force (Aug 28, 2010)

Here's another Corvette conversion:

http://www.mneaa.com/volt-vette.htm

DIYguy has made an outstanding point that I'd like to further a bit: There is NEVER a return on investment for performance upgrades (or hobbies for that matter). If you put the $2000 into your proposed ICE powered Corvette to make it go faster, how do you expect for it to pay for itself? Why would apply an ROI metric to an electric conversion that you wouldn't expect from an ICE upgrade?

If you're a car enthusiast, you're familiar with phrase "Speed costs money, how fast can you afford to go?" You're talking about pulling out a drive train and replacing it with something completely different (read new and exotic). Go price that out for an LS9 crate motor and transaxle from Arizona Marine or Street and Performance or your local GM Performance dealer. That is little closer to what your ask for.


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## DavidDymaxion (Dec 1, 2008)

If you are a gambling man, you could do a super conversion now and not worry about the $$. Then, if major hurricanes hit the oil wells, war or civil unrest stops the flow of foreign oil, and inflation drives gas to $20 a gallon -- Then you might be able to sell that EV for twice what you put into it. Heck, you might even be able to do a straight trade on a new Corvette ZR1 that'll be even faster!

Or, if you want to bet the other way, get a lesser Corvette now. Then if the economy improves, inflation goes away, gas drops to under $2 a gallon, you could do a straight trade for a Tesla!

Or, if you really wanted to hedge your bets, you could do a "reverse iron butterfly" and do both paths!

If you are not a risky gambler: A fast, long range EV is not going to be cheaper than gas at this time.


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## dawnpatrol (Jul 11, 2010)

A good place to start and evaluate what is available and to get an idea of the cost and the effort required I suggest you read extensively through the information in the following two links:

http://www.plasmaboyracing.com/blog/

This details John Waylands work on his White Zombie, street legal drag car and:

http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showthread.php/bmw-bi-moto-ev-project-28287.html

Currently one of the most popular threads on this site.

It will take a while to read, understand and digest it all...but I promise you the answer to your questions are in there.

Rgds

Adrian


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