# less expensive motors.



## stampy (Jan 19, 2012)

Whats the best deal on a motor besides used fork lift motors?

i was thinking the kostov 9" on 144volt. any thing comparable but less $$


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## stampy (Jan 19, 2012)

i also found this Motor Motenergy ME1002. is it any good?

http://www.cloudelectric.com/product-p/mo-me1002.htm


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## frodus (Apr 12, 2008)

What are you putting it into?


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## stampy (Jan 19, 2012)

More than likely a striped out ford festiva to get the weight down as much as possible.


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## Caps18 (Jun 8, 2008)

The motor is the one part of this project that I think is fairly priced. Sub-$2000 is about right.

It is the $4500 controller/charger and $6,000 battery that I think is too pricey.


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## stampy (Jan 19, 2012)

the controller i like is the prebuilt open revolt for $700. the batterys about the same $$ the charger is in the car going to run a small engine 15-18 hp running on propain spinning 5 24volt alternators. 1 alternator per 2 12volt batterys


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## TEV (Nov 25, 2011)

stampy said:


> the controller i like is the prebuilt open revolt for $700. the batterys about the same $$ the charger is in the car going to run a small engine 15-18 hp running on propain spinning 5 24volt alternators. 1 alternator per 2 12volt batterys


What is the point of doing that ? You would get better fuel economy if you just run your gas engine on propane.


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## stampy (Jan 19, 2012)

TEV said:


> What is the point of doing that ? You would get better fuel economy if you just run your gas engine on propane.


i just cant see that i could be wrong but then how does say a chevy volt work. same concept just on a much much larger budget and more efficiency. but how i see it i don't have to drag around 3500+lbs of car and i also don't need 100kw motor.

any way
5 spinning 24volt alt say 35 amps each or so thats 4200 watts give or take, 1 hp is about 745 watts so that gives me 5.6 hp to spin under load but there not 100% efficient so id add a few hp for that so maby 8-9 hp i cant see a festiva running around on 9hp


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

stampy said:


> i just cant see that i could be wrong but then how does say a chevy volt work. same concept just on a much much larger budget and more efficiency. but how i see it i don't have to drag around 3500+lbs of car and i also don't need 100kw motor.
> 
> any way
> 5 spinning 24volt alt say 35 amps each or so thats 4200 watts give or take, 1 hp is about 745 watts so that gives me 5.6 hp to spin under load but there not 100% efficient so id add a few hp for that so maby 8-9 hp i cant see a festiva running around on 9hp


Hi stam,

So what you're saying is you'll have a 12 hp engine driving alternators producing 6 kW driving an electric motor producing about 5 hp to power the car? Doesn't it make more sense to mechanically couple the engine to the wheels and get to use all 12 hp? That's what the Volt does  Read up on series and parallel hybrids.

major


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## TEV (Nov 25, 2011)

Unless your propane engine is driving the wheels too, your plan is not a good one.


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## stampy (Jan 19, 2012)

What im saying is the 12hp engine will spin the alternators putting 175amps into a small battery pack say 120volts 20ah (10 12volt 20ah batterys) thats all it will do. Then the pack will power the contoller and the motor the car. Ive read about the volt and what ive read most situations the engine is acting as a generator to charge the pack not driving the wheels. So why wont my idea work my car will be 1700lbs and will never see any speed higher than 60


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## stampy (Jan 19, 2012)

m.popsci.com/cars/article/2010-12/demystifying-chevy-volt

Im want my car to ack like the volt in One-Motor Extended-Range Mode. If im reading it right is after 25 or 50 miles when the pack dips to 35% the engine kicks in and charges the pack. They dont give a range in that mode but I suspect its till you run out of gas.


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

stampy said:


> m.popsci.com/cars/article/2010-12/demystifying-chevy-volt
> 
> Im want my car to ack like the volt in One-Motor Extended-Range Mode. If im reading it right is after 25 or 50 miles when the pack dips to 35% the engine kicks in and charges the pack. They dont give a range in that mode but I suspect its till you run out of gas.


Hi stam,

You're link is broken. And the Volt does not use the engine to recharge the battery. It extends the range by using the engine in a parallel hybrid type of configuration meaning the engine drives the wheels mechanically. 

Regards,

major


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## iti_uk (Oct 24, 2011)

edit: taking back what I just posted. Got my facts wrong.

Here's an interesting explanation.

Chris


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## stampy (Jan 19, 2012)

major said:


> Hi stam,
> 
> You're link is broken. And the Volt does not use the engine to recharge the battery. It extends the range by using the engine in a parallel hybrid type of configuration meaning the engine drives the wheels mechanically.
> 
> ...


Sorry about that link from my phone was shorted try this

http://www.popsci.com/cars/article/2010-12/demystifying-chevy-volt

from what I've read on there and a few different site, including one that has a engineer explain there are 4 modes and only one used the engine to spin the shaft of the small motor to then help the car. from what I've read its only at 70+ mph or im figuring under higher speed high load like 55mph climbing a pass.


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## stampy (Jan 19, 2012)

iti_uk said:


> edit: taking back what I just posted. Got my facts wrong.
> 
> Here's an interesting explanation.
> 
> Chris



"The gas engine, under most conditions, will be used to drive the generator and produce electricity, and will not be used to drive the wheels."

That's what I'm shooting for! except my car will weight a heck of a lot less and i dont want or need a 111kw motor. its not going to take much to accelerate a 1700lb car to 60 in 20-25sec lol.


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

stampy said:


> .....except my car will weight a heck of a lot less and i dont want or need a 111kw motor. its not going to take much to accelerate a 1700lb car to 60 in 20-25sec lol.


Good luck with that. And you might want to isolate your 5 alternators so they don't short out the battery pack.


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## Caps18 (Jun 8, 2008)

What you are trying to do sounds pretty complicated. GM has hundreds of engineers to work on the Volt and it still took them years to get it out.

I'm also afraid that your numbers don't add up. Let's say your 1700 lbs car uses 170 WattHr/mile (10lbs=1Wh/mi estimate). If you want to go 50mph or 50 miles in one hour, it would take 50*170 = 8,500 Wh. You will either need a bigger battery pack, or would be better off converting the car to run on LPG in the engine if you wanted more range.


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## E30_Dave (Apr 19, 2012)

I have a second hand siemens ac motor that I'm looking to part with.


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## PStechPaul (May 1, 2012)

AC motors are generally cheaper than DC traction motors, especially if you consider maintenance costs. DC motor controllers are simpler and may be cheaper than AC controllers made for EVs, but industrial VFDs are likely to be far cheaper especially on the used/surplus market. 

I have considered the possiility of designing a motor controller for a three phase AC induction motor and basically attaching it to the motor so that it can be controlled with a DC motor controller. Basically I would use the variable DC voltage out of the PWM controller and use it for the DC link of the three phase controller. It would change frequency with voltage but the PWM would always be the same relative amplitude, since the DC bus voltage changes with speed. So the controller would be fairly simple, and a brushed DC motor could be replaced with this package. Just a fledgeling idea...

As for using a propane or gas powered engine to drive the wheels directly, rather than charging batteries with a generator (or alternators), it should be remembered that an ICE has a rather limited range of RPM and torque where it is most efficient, and you can adjust it to that point for generating electricity. So you might get 20-25% efficiency as a generator but maybe 10-15% if you are at a less than ideal point on the curve. The electrical components are typically 80-90% efficient so you don't get the losses that are present with an ICE driving the wheels. A wide range transmission or a CVT might improve the efficiency of the ICE but introduces losses of its own. At 200 Wh/mile and 50 MPH you need about 10 kW or 13 HP to maintain the batteries at full charge, so the 12 HP engine proposed is pretty close to what is needed. Also, you can get a 10 kW generator head for about $400:
http://www.harborfreight.com/10000-watts-max-7200-watts-rated-belt-driven-generator-head-45416.html

It is probably more efficient than automotive alternators, which I have heard run about 50-70%.
http://www.microcogen.info/index.php?topic=468.0


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## stampy (Jan 19, 2012)

PStechPaul said:


> AC motors are generally cheaper than DC traction motors, especially if you consider maintenance costs. DC motor controllers are simpler and may be cheaper than AC controllers made for EVs, but industrial VFDs are likely to be far cheaper especially on the used/surplus market.
> 
> I have considered the possiility of designing a motor controller for a three phase AC induction motor and basically attaching it to the motor so that it can be controlled with a DC motor controller. Basically I would use the variable DC voltage out of the PWM controller and use it for the DC link of the three phase controller. It would change frequency with voltage but the PWM would always be the same relative amplitude, since the DC bus voltage changes with speed. So the controller would be fairly simple, and a brushed DC motor could be replaced with this package. Just a fledgeling idea...
> 
> ...


with the 10kw of ac power what would be the best way to charge the batterys on the go?


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