# Total noob here - 83GTI....



## gileadgarage (Feb 26, 2016)

Hi all,

I would like my next car project to be electric. I have an 83 GTI with no engine or trans that I would like to convert to EV. I am an experienced fabricator, mechanic and DIY electrician with only minimal back round in electronics/digital (kind of a dinosaur in this regard).

What I would like out of this car: very good acceleration (and I mean very good!), 80+ mile range, 65 mph. No power steering or brakes, I will deal with heat and 12V accessories separately.


I just need some guidance at this point:

A kit seems to make most sense for a noob like me. It seem's that the Rabbit is fairly common for this application. Any recommendations for a high performance kit? ( I see some on ebay from a guy in mass)

What is the best choice for batteries given current technology/cost/size? I can make a battery pack from multiple small batteries if I can save a ton of $$$, but something ready to go would be nice too. 

I will use a Tdi transmission with LSD and race axles. 5th gear ratio about 2200RPM at 65 MPH.

I would love regen braking but not sure if this is feasable/worthwhile.

I want to keep this project fairly simple, with minimal amount of hunting down items and research. I am not worried about the physical installation and wiring, but need help choosing the most practical components. This will be a project with my 11 and 7 YO kids.

Did I mention I want this thing to RIP 0-60?

Can this conversion be done for $12K?

Thanks!

Mark


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## gileadgarage (Feb 26, 2016)

OK, initial research tells me 12K may not get me there.... maybe it's time to think about a home equity loan. 

I need at least a 60 mile range at 60MPH. Brushed motor is fine with me.


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

Hi
$12K would be fine - I spent about half that

Batteries - Leaf or Volt pack - Leaf would easily do the 60 miles - Volt.- maybe not... - $3000

Motor - I paid $100
Controller - OpenRevolt - $600

Charger - bad boy - $150

Contactors - Volt pack comes with 2 high power + 3 others

Rest of the stuff - $2000???

http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forum...-dubious-device-44370p8.html?highlight=duncan


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## jwiger (Oct 18, 2014)

Duncan is at a good starting point for you. $12k can get you rolling if you're frugal. If not, well I just layed out $7k just for a motor and controller....

New CALB cells to get you the range you want could easily cost $9k+, so you're definitely going to have to go used there. 

Electric torque is a very different feel than gas torque. It might pin your head at 0-20mph, then feel a little lazy between 40-60. The 0-20 stuff is more fun in my opinion though


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## favguy (May 2, 2008)

I agree with Duncan, except regarding the charger. Buy a proper TCCH charger with the right lithium curves in it. They don't cost too much if you buy direct from TCCH and you really don't want to be using a cheap s**ty charger for lithium batteries! 

Also, unless you want to rebuild and modify a cheap motor, you might also want to get yourself a warp9 new or good used, so anywhere from about $500 up for used, to $2000 for this.


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## gileadgarage (Feb 26, 2016)

Thanks guys,

I did a bunch of research last night and better understand some of the basics.

Yes, the leaf batteries sound like the way to go. This is an area I do not wish to skimp, as efficiency to weight ratio is one of the more important elements here.
Anyone know how much a full leaf pack weighs?

It has been a while since I had to do all the calculations behind this, but some other posts clearly laid them out and I have my head around it better now.

As I mentioned I have access to Tdi trans, SBC stage 2 clutch. I was going to do a Tdi swap, but I have been DD'ing Diesels for years (on SVO) and am just tired of it. Plus, modern diesels do not pencil out these days anyway. More expensive, more complicated/tempermental, fuel more expensive, and they still stink!

Yes, the 0-60 thing can be closer to 0-40 or 50. I see what people are saying about the power curve. It'll be a different experience for sure.

First step will be to restore/prepare this car, it needs everything but is in very sold shape. It will be a longer term project, getting started as soon as current project is finsished. Been restoring another car over last 5 yrs and it is almost done....

I'm looking at this kit, but it is a bit pricey and can't do it now:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Complete-El...ash=item464657e7c8:g:LfYAAOSwstxVbO3a&vxp=mtr

Thanks guys, I'll try to do more homework before posting.

Mark


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## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

I am glad to see that you are continuing research, this is critical. It is important to know why you have each specific component, so it is a good idea to research each one and understand what exactly it does compared to what another component will do, and you want to know how it fits with all the other components that you select. One of the very best pieces of advice that I would give is to draw out an entire diagram of your proposed build, and post it here so that we can scrutinize it and criticize it for you. There is no shame in this, but it could save you money and make for a better design. There are many considerations to be evaluated in doing a conversion, and even if you have the solid background to build this project, there will be things that you can miss. It sounds like you have a realistic attitude and knowledge, so I look forward to seeing what you build.

Drawing an entire car diagram will help in getting advice and recommendations, but it also makes you think of things that you might not have.


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## miscrms (Sep 25, 2013)

gileadgarage said:


> Yes, the leaf batteries sound like the way to go. This is an area I do not wish to skimp, as efficiency to weight ratio is one of the more important elements here.
> Anyone know how much a full leaf pack weighs?


The full pack is spec'd at 660 lbs. The case is pretty heavy duty though, as it sits under the vehicle. Removed from the case, I found that the rear 1/2 pack weighs 229lbs. So maybe ~500lbs for the whole battery with brackets, wiring, bms and contactors.

http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showpost.php?p=708210&postcount=83

Good luck, should be a fun project. I'm also trying to get my 7/10 y/os involved with mixed results 

Rob


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## favguy (May 2, 2008)

Mark,

A very important word of advice. Don't go anywhere near the kit you linked to on ebay!! EPC controllers are dangerous rubbish peddled by a dodgy guy who is unfortunately well known on here. Have a look at these threads for reference:

http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showthread.php/ep-1000-84073.html

http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showthread.php/sale-replacement-electronics-ep-1000-84151.html

Infact he'll probably spot this post and pop up disputing reality any time now... 

I'll look forward to following your progress. Feel free to look up my own build if you'd like for reference, it's an old school DC build on a car with very similar layout to the golf/rabbit: http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showthread.php/ep-1000-84073.html

For more recent AC tech builds in similar size cars to yours, evmetro has a bunch of them that are well worth a read


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## gileadgarage (Feb 26, 2016)

Great info, thanks again.

Good to know on the Ebay kit...

I like the WarP9 or 11 DC brushed motor, seems like a good, popular product and good value. It seems that the 9 works well with a transmission and is 100lb lighter.

Leaf batteries sound like a nice way to go, and not as heavy as I thought (even with the box). I will get dimensions/detailed specs and plan out a platform behind rear seat as low as possible. I'd like to keep it reasonably well balanced. Once I determine the weight of everything I'll start figuring it out and determine suspension needs. 

First I need to restore the shell and get the car in nice shape, plenty to do there but it is such a simple car.

I may use an Espar diesel fired heater for heat. I live in VT and it would be nice to keep this thing warm in the winter since it can not always be in a warm garage. I hope this is not perceived as cheating!

My employer has electric car plugs of some sort sitting in a closet, someday we hope to install them and grid tie some of our load testing, instead of heating the outdoors with a load bank. It could happen by the time I get this thing done.

I here you on the mixed results with keeping the kids involved, but by the time this car is done I hope they will be old enough to be more engaged. They are certainly enthusiastic about it now. My 11YO brought the electric thing up when he mentioned converting his dirt bike to electric so we don't psis off the neighbors as much. 

This will be a 3yr project, and I am serious about that home equity loan! I was going to buy a new tractor, but decided to keep my old beater. I would rather spend the $$ on this.

If there is one thing I have learned the hard way with car projects - do it right the first time, be patient, spend what it takes so you do not have to go back and redo later.

I have already found some nice recipes, but still have tons more research to do, I'll get a list together and 1 line drawing. I may need to shamelessly steal from other posters, there is some seriously impressive stuff going on here. I'll report back eventually.


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## miscrms (Sep 25, 2013)

Another option to think about that is on the horizon but approaching fast. As the number of commercial EVs and hybrids on the road continues to grow, there are some pretty intriguing components showing up in salvage auctions and junkyards. People are already taking advantage of the batteries, as these are the most straight forward, but there's a lot of other stuff in there that could similarly change the game in terms of cost/performance for EV conversions. 

Its going to take some figuring out, but IMHO there is a huge potential there. In my case I bought a wrecked Leaf, which ended up costing $7k after all fees and shipping. I'm basically approaching it as a complete conversion kit, with an 80kW continuous duty motor / inverter, fixed speed reduction gear / transaxle, a 24kWh battery with BMS and charger, plus pretty much all the other bits and pieces and wiring one might need.

There are lots of other folks out there trying even more ambitious projects, trying to re-purpose individual components from higher performance vehicles. But I figured given the high availability and reasonable costs of wrecked Leafs, there'd be quite a bit to learn just by seeing what the Leaf system could do in a much lighter, smaller platform. And if I'm so inclined down the road, it already looks like the battery and motor are probably capable of considerably more peak performance with an upgraded controller/inverter...

Best of luck,
Rob


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## gileadgarage (Feb 26, 2016)

Yea, I was thinking about that. I saw a vid of a Leaf drivetrain running outside of the car and thought about swapping in an entire system, heck of a system for like $7K or whatever if you can find a wrecked one for. Nice find, that sounds like a great way to go, looks dam complicated though!

I am a bit hung up on Regen braking and have a question. I did read a long thread here on this topic, but nothing on the crude approach I am thinking about (but probably has been discussed here before);

Why not have a separate alternator turn on when brakes are applied?

Lets say I use something like a 150A Prestolite alternator direct coupled to motor (or an AC clutch or something). When brake light switch closes field is established and batteries will be charged, or at the very least maybe a smaller alt for the 12V accessory battery(s). I realize this would not offer much stopping force, but its better then nothing? I have heard of these alternators being modified/regulated for various voltages and current, but not sure what is involved. 

Assuming I have the room to do this, it seems like it may be worthwhile and pretty simple to implement. It may add another 70 lb or so. Or maybe also add one at each r wheel!? (not really serious on that part...)

Just thinking out loud... maybe its simply not worth the extra weight.

'EDIT' I guess I forgot that the motor will not always be spinning in excess of 800 RPM, but most of the time it would.


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## gileadgarage (Feb 26, 2016)

Ok, I see this has been attempted before and it is simply not practical. I am not dismissing the idea of using a separate motor to charge under braking/coast, but it probably comes down to just going PM or AC and using one motor.


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## mk4gti (May 6, 2011)

gileadgarage said:


> I like the WarP9 or 11 DC brushed motor, seems like a good, popular product and good value. It seems that the 9 works well with a transmission and is 100lb lighter.



be very careful here. 
I have a 91 golf and the impulse 9 motor (same manufacturer as the WarP9) was a very tight fit.

The 83 rabbit rad support cannot be removed (without cutting and welding) so you can't just slide the assembly from the front. Therefore it has to be installed via top (what I did) or bottom. Either way you have to slightly tilt the motor/tranny to get it in place, which can be a bit of a pain if the assembly is too long.

The axles from the stock tranny also protrude to the point where it may hit the side of the motor if you choose something too big


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## gileadgarage (Feb 26, 2016)

Thanks, good to know. I was not expecting that, I thought there would be tons of room for the motor.

So get this - I emailed an old friend I have not talked to in a long time. Last time we spoke he picked up a new Egolf, so I wanted to see how he liked it. His reply:

 "I really like the electric car. It's super fun to drive despite being a single speed automatic. It pulls away from stop lights like an animal, even with tire spin if you want. It's such a joy to drive. It handles really well too; it has a near 50/50 weight ratio.
It's funny you should mention converting that GTI. As it turns out, I have a compete electric conversion kit for a VW, complete with an AC motor, which is what you want (easy regeneration on the downhills). I have the motor controller, solenoids, adapter plate that bolts to a VW tranny, cable, and a zillion other bits for the conversion. My father in law bought the setup years ago when we planned to convert a mk2 Golf. I think the kit cost around $9k at the time. If you are interested, he would probably take very little (like $2k or less). If you want, I'll ask him what he wants for it. I know it's a 50hp/ 100ftlb motor. It's bolted to a gasser tranny that you can have with it."



Maybe less power then I was looking for, but sounds like it may be a sweet deal. I'll get some details and report back.


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## jwiger (Oct 18, 2014)

if that really does have the motor, controller and adapter, I would jump all over it!

You can always upgrade the motor later, but his would definitely get you moving. You'll be surprised what 100 ft pounds feels like off the line with the transmission.


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## miscrms (Sep 25, 2013)

Sounds like a great place to start. Having the chance to get your feet wet before committing to a big purchase seems like a really good idea. I bet you'll learn a lot that will inform your choices down the road!

Rob


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## gileadgarage (Feb 26, 2016)

Well, his Father in law wants 4K. He paid over 9K for it, so still could be a very good deal.

I'll find out the details (mfg's/part#'s) and report back.

It would be a good way to get my feet wet, but 4K will be tough right now!

Mark


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## DMPstar (Mar 2, 2016)

Hey Mark, your Rabbit project sounds pretty exciting! My wife has a 4dr Rabbit that I plan to convert some day, and I am starting on my Scirocco right now so I am interested to see what you end up doing with the GTI. I think these cars lend themselves well to EV conversions as they are so mechanically and electrically simple to begin with, and almost all the reliability issues I have had were engine related. I prefer RWD sports cars, but A1 VW platforms can handle well enough to make up for being FWD .

In regards to the motor and adaptor your friend's father in law has, I can't be certain but the specs sound similar to this:

AC50: http://www.canev.com/motors.php

Adaptor from this particular vendor: http://www.canev.com/a5177.php

It happens that I am using that same motor for the Scirocco, although mine has a different mounting type and will not work with any off the shelf adaptor kits. I hope to build an adaptor from scrap parts (unfortunately probably not retaining the clutch at this point) to work with the motors I have, but it is really tempting to buy a new AC50 and adaptor to skip ahead in the project. Sounds like for you, fabricating and machining your own adaptors might be better, especially for your kids. Experiencing stuff like that as a youngster really guided my interests and career later in life.

With the 96V Curtis controller I expect fairly decent acceleration performance in the Scirocco, and an OK top speed. Bumping up to 144V pack and controller would be my first choice for a performance mod with this setup. 

Prices have dropped on these conversion kits in the last few years, so the $4k he wants may be reasonable, but the original $9k price is probably a bit dated. Regardless, grabbing up most of the needed parts for the motor and controls in one purchase would be nice.

Happy ElectroDubbin!

Jason


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## Moltenmetal (Mar 20, 2014)

Be careful: the Curtis 144 V controller is limited to 500 A, whereas the 96V controller is capable of 650 A. You notice that in low-end torque which is where all the feeling of performance comes from. Take a look at the curves for the AC50 and AC51 at 96 and 144 V on HPEVS's website and you'll notice the difference in the low speed torques.


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## DMPstar (Mar 2, 2016)

Moltenmetal: Good point. I do recall reading a discussion on this when the 144V controller was being introduced. I guess it offers a slightly higher horsepower and therefore top speed, and looks like it would act a bit more like the original gas motor in its power/RPM range, but you are right that it loses quite a bit of that stop and go snap. 

Would you agree that if a guy was to go from a 200AH 96V pack to a 200AH 144V pack with this motor and car, the range would be increased due to the higher kWH, and strain on the battery would be reduced due to the lower max current of the controller. The car would be slower to accelerate, and also a bit heavier from the extra cells? 

If this is all qualitatively accurate, then I would probably stick to the 96V setup. Thanks for that, Moltenmetal.


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## gileadgarage (Feb 26, 2016)

Great info, thanks guys. There is an absolute wealth of knowledge here, and some super smart people.

Still waiting on details of the kit, hope I do not get the run around...

Either way, plenty of work to do on the car itself. While restoring the shell I can figure out what to do about battery type and mounting. I imagine it will be a bit of a task to make a frame, sealed box and venting. Will look into this next.

I'll be heading down to CT over Easter and will try look at this kit in person.

Thanks,

Mark


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## Moltenmetal (Mar 20, 2014)

Indeed you will get a car capable of higher top speed but with poorer low end performance if you go with 144V rather than 96V using the Curtis controller. Be aware that 96V is a nominal voltage- my 96V controller is connected to a pack which is 32 S or 118 V peak during charging, 112 V nominal. Check HPEVS for the specs- IIRC I could have gone to 34 cells in series if I'd wanted to, or was that 36? Can't remember.

You are better off with 96V and 180 or 200 Ah cells than 144 V worth of 100 Ah cells as an example. You will have more range (more Wh), better low end torque, and be drawing the cells at a lower max C rate, so less voltage drop and self heating- they should stay happy longer. I can hit the controller limit of 650 battery A any time I want, and be comfortable knowing that I'm just over 3 C instead of 6.5 C- apparently the 180 Ah Sinopoly cells are just 200 Ah cells which tested at a lower capacity- they are otherwise identical.


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