# State of the mod request: CCS DC fast charging



## joekitch (Sep 13, 2013)

some clarifications about what i mean:

onboard charge controllers or BMS' or both, not at-home charging boxes
CCS plug, not chademo. Chademo in my area especially is falling down very quickly and even then very few of them are even fast chargers
by "fast charger", i mean the standard 0-80% in 30 minutes speed
in my particular application, i'll be using only a 32kw total capacity battery, so having a way to fast charge so i don't need to worry as much about range is very high priority for my build

so, what's the current state of this? Last i heard, orion was looking into putting this into their BMS'
https://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1051737&postcount=4
but i can't find any evidence of aftermarket or open source approaches, let alone how successful they've been


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## john61ct (Feb 25, 2017)

Elcon charger, 

optionally controlled via CANbus

Orion can

Also:
Emus
Elithion
EPS


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## Immo1282 (Jul 12, 2019)

There is also OpenV2G - which is an implementation of vehicle-to-anything, but someone may at some point use their project to develop a DIY CCS controller.

I'm not sure where I read that Orion was thinking about implementing CCS, but I can't imagine it happening any time soon...


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## john61ct (Feb 25, 2017)

Immo1282 said:


> Orion was thinking about implementing CCS


Could you explain what that would look like?

I thought it would be the charger side that needs to implement support for its input.

AFAIK the BMS just sends the start / keep charging heartbeat commands with the desired output V & A.


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## joekitch (Sep 13, 2013)

john61ct said:


> Elcon charger,
> 
> optionally controlled via CANbus
> 
> ...


in the case of elcon at least, it seems their beefiest charger is only 6.6kw capacity
https://www.elconchargers.com/catalog/item/9034090/10317340.htm

and if i were to pull up to a public DC fast charging station and plug my project in through that, i don't think i'd be getting 0-80% in 30 minutes


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## john61ct (Feb 25, 2017)

Put multiple units in parallel?

Or go Brusa?

These are others Orion mentions

Eltek Valere
Current Ways
ZiVan


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## mikejh (Nov 20, 2008)

I'm confused why you are asking about CCS DC Fast charging but also referencing chargers and their maximum capacity?

CCS Charging relies on the charger in the charging station not the vehicle.

The charging station is directly connected to the vehicle battery via the high current DC connectors and the BMS tells the charging station (via the comms) how fast to charge and when to stop based on its direct on board monitoring of the battery pack. (greatly simplified of course)

This is similar to Chademo except the CCS communication protocol runs over PLC rather than CAN bus. There is negotiation between the BMS and Charging station to ensure compatibility and charge voltages/currents, ground fault checking etc. prior to any charging taking place.

You could get away with no on board charger at all if you only wanted to use DC fast charging. 

Mike


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## joekitch (Sep 13, 2013)

i keep forgetting that is the case
in which case what i'm looking out for is a bms which can handshake with the ccs protocol at public charging stations, and a battery which can take that kind of rapid charging (which i think the Volt batteries can, given sufficient cooling)


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

joekitch said:


> in which case what i'm looking out for is a bms which can handshake with the ccs protocol at public charging stations, and a battery which can take that kind of rapid charging (which i think the Volt batteries can, given sufficient cooling)


Since the handshake includes the EV telling the charging station what rate is allowed, any battery can handle a rapid charging rate... it's just a question of exactly how rapid. You don't have to accept the highest possible rate that the station can handle.

On the other hand, if the station charges by time rather than by energy, you want to charge at the highest power that your battery can safely handle in order to get as much energy as you can for your money.


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## joekitch (Sep 13, 2013)

brian_ said:


> On the other hand, if the station charges by time rather than by energy, you want to charge at the highest power that your battery can safely handle in order to get as much energy as you can for your money.


that's the open question, how hard can you slam amps into the volt cells?
given how you can draw crazy amps from them for high power ev applications, i'm guessing they'd actually be very stable under very high charge rates

but from what i read historically, the hard part was making something open source that could talk to these ccs charging stations and tell them what they want to hear in order to charge


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## remy_martian (Feb 4, 2019)

Drawing crazy amps is very different than stuffing them back in again. Looking at cells I have, that's a 6:1 difference on the continuous crazy draw, even higher ratio if you're talking about a 10sec pull of electrons.

Ultimately, your BMS will determine how hot the cell is getting which determines the charge rate.


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## joekitch (Sep 13, 2013)

fair enough
i guess then it's a matter of seeing what other people who have tried fast charging volt batteries can find.
in which case, damien's panzer uses volt batteries and a simpBMS, and looks like he can do some pretty serious charging with that setup on chademo, which was pulling like 72 amps at 400v
https://youtu.be/OpnI4HUsZVE?t=514


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## Ladogaboy (Apr 25, 2010)

CHAdeMO is the de facto DC fast charging standard for DIYers right now because it is controlled through CAN. 

I'm also interested in installing a CCS fast charge option in an EV that previously only had AC. It is still unclear to me how CCS equipped EVs store and communicate the DIN SPEC 70121 and ISO/IEC 15118 standards to the DC fast charger. It could be in the onboard AC charger, in the BMS, or in the ???. 

Orion was mentioning that they were looking into supporting the CCS standard (that was on their website, but I can't remember where at this point); however, it's possible that CCS fast charging can be supported even without the BMS or onboard charger having that capability. Tesla has been offering a CCS adapter for their European Model S and X owners, and part of the adapter package is a communication box that is installed under the rear seat. It's possible that a third-party could replicate that type of hardware, which acts as a bridge between the CCS port (comm line) and the BMS. Basically, a PLC to CAN translator.


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## joekitch (Sep 13, 2013)

Orion's teasing a CCS add-on module to their BMS' which will come out late 2020 or early 2021 and that seems like a good relatively turn key solution


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## john61ct (Feb 25, 2017)

Chademo is losing ground to CCS, Nissan just accelerated that


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

john61ct said:


> Chademo is losing ground to CCS, Nissan just accelerated that


I had not heard this news yet, but it is interesting:
InsideEVs: Nissan Transitions To CCS For US And Europe, Dealing CHAdeMO A Fatal Blow
Green Car Reports: Nissan's move to CCS fast charging makes CHAdeMO a legacy standard

The shift does add incentive to work with CCS for long-term usability.


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## Ladogaboy (Apr 25, 2010)

CHAdeMO is pretty much dead for new electric vehicles in North America at this point; however, it is likely to be supported by public charging providers for a long time into the future. 

Even for DIYers, it's going to be necessary to make the transition to CCS, so off-the-shelf CCS conversion solutions can't come soon enough.


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## mpopov23 (Aug 13, 2014)

I have some experience with CCS. I have used one such module from Auronik (they were bought by Akka a while back) but it worked terribly and the price was about 1500 EUR for <10 pcs. 
Supposed one could make a CCS module, how much would you guys be willing to pay for one? Would you be open to supporting a crowdsourcing project for it?


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## Ladogaboy (Apr 25, 2010)

mpopov23 said:


> I have some experience with CCS. I have used one such module from Auronik (they were bought by Akka a while back) but it worked terribly and the price was about 1500 EUR for <10 pcs.
> Supposed one could make a CCS module, how much would you guys be willing to pay for one? Would you be open to supporting a crowdsourcing project for it?


It seems like that would be something that's hard to put a value on. It's essentially the same thing that Tesla is providing to their Model S/X owners in Europe (plus the CCS plug adapter), and I believe they're charging less than €200. Similarly, the Power Line Communication module for the Chevrolet Bolt EV is only about $150.

How much more would a crowd-sourced version cost?


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## mpopov23 (Aug 13, 2014)

Ladogaboy said:


> It seems like that would be something that's hard to put a value on. It's essentially the same thing that Tesla is providing to their Model S/X owners in Europe (plus the CCS plug adapter), and I believe they're charging less than €200. Similarly, the Power Line Communication module for the Chevrolet Bolt EV is only about $150.
> 
> How much more would a crowd-sourced version cost?


Well there are a few key components:
1. GreenPHY PLC, cheapest one I found is this: PEV (Electro Vehicle) side PLC / Home Plug Green Phy communication Module for ISO/IEC15118 / DIN 70121 / SAE J2847/2 *51 EUR*
2. Singleboard computer capable of running ISO15118 stack, perhaps Beaglebone Black since it includes two CAN interfaces https://hr.mouser.com/ProductDetail...-Studio/102110420?qs=vmHwEFxEFR8FZOWBwz8ZDA== *40 EUR*
3. Additional PCB with SAEJ1772 signaling and sampling, power suppply, etc electronics approx *50 EUR*

so we are talking about 150 EUR just for the parts.

In addition you need:
1. At least two more high current DC contactors for connecting the CCS lines to battery pack (Tyco KiloVAC). around *200 EUR* 
2. High voltage, galvanically isolated voltage measuring input around *50 EUR*
3. CCS socket, around *200-300 EUR*.

As for the software, there is open source implementation in JAVA, RISE V2G – V2G Clarity, but it needs to be ported to the actual hardware, mostly by implementing calls to access J1772 CP and PP states and controling them. Also TCP/IP communication over PLC needs to be implemented.

I think *250-300 EUR* just for the PLC module could be possible.


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## Ladogaboy (Apr 25, 2010)

mpopov23 said:


> Well there are a few key components:
> 1. GreenPHY PLC, cheapest one I found is this: PEV (Electro Vehicle) side PLC / Home Plug Green Phy communication Module for ISO/IEC15118 / DIN 70121 / SAE J2847/2 *51 EUR*
> 2. Singleboard computer capable of running ISO15118 stack, perhaps Beaglebone Black since it includes two CAN interfaces https://hr.mouser.com/ProductDetail/BeagleBoard-by-Seeed-Studio/102110420?qs=vmHwEFxEFR8FZOWBwz8ZDA== *40 EUR*
> 3. Additional PCB with SAEJ1772 signaling and sampling, power suppply, etc electronics approx *50 EUR*
> ...


Yes, I think the best bet would be focusing solely on the PLC module. The CCS socket will be unique to the end user because Europe and North America use a different socket, and some people might already have the contactors (e.g., from a previous CHAdeMO conversion). Worst case, people buy the parts they need to complete the system separately, or we could set up a group buy for Tycos, sockets, cables, etc. if it makes sense. 

I might pick up a spare Chevy Bolt EV Power Line Communication module for about $150 just to look at it and see how it works and is put together. It might only speak the DIN SPEC 70121 standard, though, which could be limiting.


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## sprombo (Nov 10, 2020)

joekitch said:


> Orion's teasing a CCS add-on module to their BMS' which will come out late 2020 or early 2021 and that seems like a good relatively turn key solution


Do you have any source or information on this? I'm REALLY in the market for a BMS that can handle CCS and would love to have some info on it, any at all.


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## joekitch (Sep 13, 2013)

sprombo said:


> Do you have any source or information on this? I'm REALLY in the market for a BMS that can handle CCS and would love to have some info on it, any at all.


I have not emailed Orion asking about it, I encourage you to do so! Hopefully it didn't get delayed


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## sprombo (Nov 10, 2020)

Check it out! Zero EV (British EV conversion group) replied, and said a CCS charger will be hitting a market in like a month! Looks like it will be compatible with Orion BMS. And they'll have EU _and_ US versions of CCS by middle of next year! Link to post.


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## Greenbeast (Jun 23, 2009)

sprombo said:


> Check it out! Zero EV (British EV conversion group) replied, and said a CCS charger will be hitting a market in like a month! Looks like it will be compatible with Orion BMS. And they'll have EU _and_ US versions of CCS by middle of next year! Link to post.


I just looked at their store and they have it up now, £3600


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## joekitch (Sep 13, 2013)

I emailed orion recently asking for progress on this (on official orion ccs module that works with their bms2) and the individual on the other end linked me to the zero ev ccs module
which is....very concerning as it may indicate they've given up making one internally


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## Rustybkts (Sep 27, 2009)

joekitch said:


> I emailed orion recently asking for progress on this (on official orion ccs module that works with their bms2) and the individual on the other end linked me to the zero ev ccs module
> which is....very concerning as it may indicate they've given up making one internally


The Zero-EV module has been out of stock for over a year and still no date for coming back in due I guess to the global shortage of microchips.


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