# Re: [EVDL] ticking motor



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] ticking motor*



> ev99saturn wrote:
> 
> > How can I determine the reasonable top speed per gear? 99 saturn, 5 speed.
> 
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] ticking motor*

Thanks Willie. From your advice, I calculated that the top speed, based on
max rpm, in 2nd and 4th should be 62mph and 149 mph respectively. 

EV Calculator shows 54 and 66 mph (for a similar Saturn), but both are
limited by battery voltage and not rpm. So it appears that I have not
over-rev'd the motor after all. 

However, the ticking or clicking sound is still present, so a call to the
manufacturer is probably my next step.

Wayne





> Willie McKemie-3 wrote:
> >
> >
> >>From the published gear ratios and measured tire diameter, I computed
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] ticking motor*

Perhaps so. Experience is a great teacher, but this is my first attempt at
building an EV. 

My presumption was that if the dc motor can rev higher than the ICE, as long
as reasonable speeds are not exceeded per gear, the motor should not be over
rev'd. This was confirmed by calculating the max mph per gear at 7000
rpm. I am (and have apparently always been) running well below max rpm.

So I suspect that it is a motor failure.

Wayne




> evdesigner wrote:
> >
> > You spend $1600 to $2000 on a motor and don't install some type of encoder
> > to determine motor speed? Seems like a recipe for disaster.
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] ticking motor*



> ev99saturn wrote:
> >
> > Thanks Willie. From your advice, I calculated that the top speed, based on
> > max rpm, in 2nd and 4th should be 62mph and 149 mph respectively.
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] ticking motor*

I am using the Advanced DC FB-4001A motor, which is rated to 7000 rpm
according to http://www.evconvert.com/tools/evcalc/ I agree that the
speeds seem fast, but here are the calculations that I did:

tire circumference = 74.375 inches
tire rotations / mile = 851.9
2nd gear ratio = 1.95
4th gear ratio = 0.811
final drive ratio = 4.063

The formula that I used is: RPM * ( car motion inches per motor rotation) /
(ft per inch) / (ft per mile) * (60 minutes) / (final drive ratio)

Therefore 1000 motor rpm in second gear = 8.9 mph
6000 = 53.3 mph
7000 = 62.2 mph
evcalc shows 2nd gear max speed at 54 mph for a 1996 saturn sc2 5 speed,
mine is a 1999 saturn sl2 5 speed. Similar, albeit not exactly the same.

For 4th gear, my calculations seem rediculous, but are:
1000 rpm in 4th gear = 21.4 mph
6000 rpm = 128.2 mph
7000 rpm = 149 mph
evcalc shows 4th gear max (as above) at 66 mph. 

Evcalc also states that the maximum speed is limited by battery voltage and
not motor rpm (for 2nd and 4th gear). Clearly the car won't go 128 or 149
mph. My point in calculating it was to see if I was exceeding RPM at a
given speed in a given gear. It looks like I did not. However please
correct my calculations if needed!

Cheers, Wayne


Willie McKemie-3 wrote:
> 
>


> ev99saturn wrote:
> >>
> >> Thanks Willie. From your advice, I calculated that the top speed, based
> >> on
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] ticking motor*

Wayne,

I can't for the life of me remember where I found it, but somewhere in the
last few months I found that I should be using 5200 rpm as the max rating
for that same motor (ADC Fb1-4001a). That's what I used when I calculated
max speeds for my car in each gear http://www.evalbum.com/1974

You're right that the EV calculator does indeed list that motor as 7000 rpm
max. But I find it interesting that on that same site the Netgain Warp 9
(which I understand is effectively the same motor with some component
upgrades) is shown as having a max rpm of 5000. I'd be curious if anyone
knows whether the differences between the two motors would justify such a
big difference in max rpm?

- Peter Flipsen Jr
Pocatello, ID





> ev99saturn <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> >
> > I am using the Advanced DC FB-4001A motor, which is rated to 7000 rpm
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] ticking motor*

It seems this question comes up often. I recall several answers,
though the ones from Jim and other experts usually fall in the
5500-6000 max momentary range. I remember as low as 4500 and as high
as 7000 though.

I have a tach on mine. I keep it below 3k most of the time because I
have an imbalance that gets bad above that, but I start to lose torque
above 3k anyway. I've had my ADC 9" up to about 5k before.


-Jon Glauser
http://jonglauser.blogspot.com
http://www.evalbum.com/555

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] ticking motor*

Oops - just found the source. Here's the link:

http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showthread.php/maximum-rpmi-adc-9-26723.html

It's from someone who says he got it from documentation that came with the
motor. Here are the data he posted:

FB1-4001
96 Volts
Time on Volts Amps RPM HP KW
5 Minutes 88 360 3300 35.0 26.5
1 Hour 89 210 3600 23.0 17.30
Continuous 90 190 3900 20.0 15.0

120 Volts
Time on Volts Amps RPM HP KW
5 Minutes 109 340 3520 43.0 32.5
1 Hour 114 205 4800 27.5 20.80
Continuous 115 182 5200 25.2 19.0

144 Volts
Time on Volts Amps RPM HP KW
5 Minutes 134 320 4200 48.8 36.8
1 Hour 138 185 5700 30.4 22.9
Continuous 139 170 6000 28.5 21.50

Since I run 120 Volts, 5200 continuous is what I picked.

- Peter Flipsen Jr
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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] ticking motor*

>
> Wayne,
>
> I can't for the life of me remember where I found it, but somewhere in the
> last few months I found that I should be using 5200 rpm as the max rating
> for that same motor (ADC Fb1-4001a). That's what I used when I calculated
> max speeds for my car in each gear http://www.evalbum.com/1974
>
> You're right that the EV calculator does indeed list that motor as 7000 rpm
> max. But I find it interesting that on that same site the Netgain Warp 9
> (which I understand is effectively the same motor with some component
> upgrades) is shown as having a max rpm of 5000. I'd be curious if anyone
> knows whether the differences between the two motors would justify such a
> big difference in max rpm?
> 
Not to dish NetGain but the commutators used on those motors are the
cheapest type available and cannot handle the same rpm as the ones on
the ADC. It is the way the industry has gone. The style "Molded stacked
comm" is also prone to compromise during assembly. They are copper bars
with little feet that are molded into the plastic. The windings are spot
welded to the bars and the second winding is stacked on top and welded,
This can compromise the foot near the weld site and make it loose. At
high rpm the windings pull and peal them up.

http://cvevs.jfs-tech.com/dsc00015.jpg
http://cvevs.jfs-tech.com/dsc00022.jpg

Note: Not one copper foot broke, in all cases the plastic gave way.

ADC uses the comms with risers that have a slot cut in them, the
windings are put into the slot and then it is brazed. This would seem
to suffer more from a heat problem as brazing takes longer, but the
riser helps I guess.

My warp 9 now has an ADC comm on it Thanks to Jim Husted's Great work.
Note the banding on the armature windings.
http://cvevs.jfs-tech.com/dsc00064.jpg

The best comms are assembled and called steel comms and I once got a
quote from Toldedo commutators on making a run of the comm for the warp
9. This was years ago but It would of required a minimum run of 10 and
they were to be $149 each and $109 each at 15 or 20 qty.
These are a steel sleeve and bars and mica loaded in then a v-ring on
the front cinches it all down. They can be rebuilt. If next summer I get
to working on my Drag Truck, I will try to get a group of us to orer
cooms so I can have a motor made with two of them. ***

the bars have a big dovetail, a lot more copper

http://books.google.com/books?id=rycuAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA12&lpg=PA12&dq=commutator+bar&source=bl&ots=sQBAMOVC5l&sig=ZQmux00wm6JXrRUo1z_Bprjfy8M&hl=en&ei=yzSYStn1NoGgsgO2iej_AQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=6#v=onepage&q=commutator%20bar&f=false

tiny url : http://tinyurl.com/knpjyj
> - Peter Flipsen Jr
> Pocatello, ID
>
> 
** If Jim is reading this, If I had money and was having you make me a
siamese 9, Could we get motor parts and build up a motor, or do we start
with a motor and modify it. I don't know if the armature can be
purchased without the comm or if we have to remove it. I know they get
bored out for the larger shaft. With a steel comm, we would have to
specify that!

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] ticking motor*

http://books.google.com/books?id=rycuAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA12&lpg=PA12&dq=commutator+bar&source=bl&ots=sQBAMOVC5l&sig=ZQmux00wm6JXrRUo1z_Bprjfy8M&hl=en&ei=yzSYStn1NoGgsgO2iej_AQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=6#v=onepage&q=commutator%20bar&f=false

or 

http://tinyurl.com/m42eje

That's interesting, the Naval Electricians Handbook published in 1917.
You can download all 542 pages at the link above, 20Mb.
It's amazing how similar brush motors from that era are to today's motors.

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] ticking motor*

They also talk about chattering brushes here,

http://books.google.com/books?id=y-vq2G1lHUMC&pg=RA1-PA34-IA592&dq=commutator#v=onepage&q=commutator&f=false

or

http://tinyurl.com/mcygz6

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] ticking motor*



> On 26 Aug 2009 at 18:58, [email protected] wrote:
> 
> > The Zilla control can shut down the control in the event of overspeed,
> > but I don't think there is an aftermarket product to do this with other
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] ticking motor*

David
What worries me is not overspeeding when in gear ( although that could
happen when driving downhill, even with a low voltage pack ) but what would
happen with the tranny out of gear ( or, the cluch disengaged) if someone
accidently put the accelerator pedal down.

And, especially with someone else driving the car - where someone might be
confused for a few seconds about what is happening when they don't hear the
expected ICE engine sounds. I don't know how long it would take - with an
unloaded motor - to overspeed, but it's probably only a few seconds.

Phil



> EVDL Administrator <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> > On 26 Aug 2009 at 18:58, [email protected] wrote:
> >
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] ticking motor*

Wayne, 

Would you please take a look at my website and watch the video of my impulse
9 inch being spun up with a 12 V battery
(http://www.winlow.co.uk/html/ev_conversion.html go down to 25/05/09 and
it's the 6th item down for that date - right click and play but you need
Flashplayer installed - If you can't watch the video, ping me your email
address and I'll send it to you as a .wmv file - [email protected])?
It has a ticking sound which you can hear particularly as it slows to a stop
at the end of the video. Is this the same sound you can hear? I have had
this noise from new as far as I can tell and have assumed it is just due to
the motor being new and the bushes needing to fully bed on to the
commentator. Netgains site says all there Impulse/Warp motors have
partially, pre-bedded brushes. I have heard direct from Netgain that it is
possible to remove the noise by using a special tool on the commutator
bars. I have checked my commutator regularly since I started using my EV -
it has now done over 400 miles and the commutator appears quite normal, no
sign of excessive arcing.

With regard to your RPM calculations, are you taking your circumference from
the tyre specifications? If so, you might find that the rolling
circumference i.e. pi times the distance from the centre of the wheel to
the road surface squared, creates an effectively shorter circumference due
to the deformation of the tire and this would upset your calculations. 

Regards, Martin Winlow, Herts, UK
http://www.evalbum.com/2092
www.winlow.co.uk



-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf
Of ev99saturn
Sent: Thursday, 27 August 2009 19:01
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [EVDL] ticking motor


I am using the Advanced DC FB-4001A motor, which is rated to 7000 rpm
according to http://www.evconvert.com/tools/evcalc/ I agree that the
speeds seem fast, but here are the calculations that I did:

tire circumference = 74.375 inches
tire rotations / mile = 851.9
2nd gear ratio = 1.95
4th gear ratio = 0.811
final drive ratio = 4.063

The formula that I used is: RPM * ( car motion inches per motor rotation) /
(ft per inch) / (ft per mile) * (60 minutes) / (final drive ratio)
...

_______________________________________________
General EVDL support: http://evdl.org/help/
Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
Archives: http://evdl.org/archive/
Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] ticking motor*

Martin,

Your motor sounds ok to me. The ticking sound I am getting is a lot
louder. Here is a short video of mine motor running. 
http://www.nabble.com/file/p25203097/motor-ticking2.wmv motor-ticking2.wmv 

It appears that one of the commutator bars is raised causing the clicking
sound. One bar is blackened. I am waiting to hear from ADC if it is
covered by warranty, my distributor says unlikely. If they are not going
to cover it, then I am going to bring the armature to a local machine shop
to have the commutator bars re-rounded on a lathe.

Wayne




> martinwinlow wrote:
> >
> > Wayne,
> >
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] ticking motor*

When I ran my new Warp 9 on 12 volts, it did do a very load clicking noise. 
I could hear it 200 feet away. I noted the edges of the communtator bars 
were very sharp and the edges of the silver graphite brushes are very rough 
and jagged which was cause by hitting the rough edges.

It look like the communtator bars were just lathe cut and not condition with 
a communtator stone. The edges of the communtator bars were still ragged. 
Normally I clean up the edges of the communtator bars with a V file before I 
stone it.

Just file the edges slightly, do not make it a deep V groove cut. Next you 
can get a set of communtator stones from a motor shop, that range from 
rough, medium and fine. Stone the communtator while running it with 12 volts 
which will also seat the brushes.

Next after you stone the communtator with fine stone, you can condition it 
further by mirror finish the surface of these bars which is call 
micro-mirroring. Using a very fine cloth polishing cloth that comes in a 
roll about 2 inches wide design for metal work. You can get this from a 
motor shop or a industrial supply company.

To polish the communtator while its in the motor, connect up a pulley to the 
motor shaft and turn it with a small motor. You can use a large variable 
speed drill or I use a belt off my industrial Singer sewing machine which 
has variable speed.

Today after 8 years of running, the motor is running smooth as glass, there 
is no noise at all. I think it was Jim Husted at 
[email protected] said, that some motors will make noise while 
running them on too low of a voltage at low rpm.

Roland








----- Original Message ----- 
From: "martin winlow" <[email protected]>
To: "'Electric Vehicle Discussion List'" <[email protected]>
Sent: Saturday, August 29, 2009 5:02 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] ticking motor


> Wayne,
>
> Would you please take a look at my website and watch the video of my 
> impulse
> 9 inch being spun up with a 12 V battery
> (http://www.winlow.co.uk/html/ev_conversion.html go down to 25/05/09 and
> it's the 6th item down for that date - right click and play but you need
> Flashplayer installed - If you can't watch the video, ping me your email
> address and I'll send it to you as a .wmv file - 
> [email protected])?
> It has a ticking sound which you can hear particularly as it slows to a 
> stop
> at the end of the video. Is this the same sound you can hear? I have had
> this noise from new as far as I can tell and have assumed it is just due 
> to
> the motor being new and the bushes needing to fully bed on to the
> commentator. Netgains site says all there Impulse/Warp motors have
> partially, pre-bedded brushes. I have heard direct from Netgain that it 
> is
> possible to remove the noise by using a special tool on the commutator
> bars. I have checked my commutator regularly since I started using my 
> EV -
> it has now done over 400 miles and the commutator appears quite normal, no
> sign of excessive arcing.
>
> With regard to your RPM calculations, are you taking your circumference 
> from
> the tyre specifications? If so, you might find that the rolling
> circumference i.e. pi times the distance from the centre of the wheel to
> the road surface squared, creates an effectively shorter circumference due
> to the deformation of the tire and this would upset your calculations.
>
> Regards, Martin Winlow, Herts, UK
> http://www.evalbum.com/2092
> www.winlow.co.uk
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On 
> Behalf
> Of ev99saturn
> Sent: Thursday, 27 August 2009 19:01
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] ticking motor
>
>
> I am using the Advanced DC FB-4001A motor, which is rated to 7000 rpm
> according to http://www.evconvert.com/tools/evcalc/ I agree that the
> speeds seem fast, but here are the calculations that I did:
>
> tire circumference = 74.375 inches
> tire rotations / mile = 851.9
> 2nd gear ratio = 1.95
> 4th gear ratio = 0.811
> final drive ratio = 4.063
>
> The formula that I used is: RPM * ( car motion inches per motor rotation) 
> /
> (ft per inch) / (ft per mile) * (60 minutes) / (final drive ratio)
> ...
>
> _______________________________________________
> General EVDL support: http://evdl.org/help/
> Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
> Archives: http://evdl.org/archive/
> Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>
> 

_______________________________________________
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Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
Archives: http://evdl.org/archive/
Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] ticking motor*

Hi Wayne,

I have watched your video and the noises are very similar in style but as
you say yours is a *lot* louder than mine. Did you check the comm bars to
see if they were at different heights? It certainly sounds as though one or
possibly even more than one of the COMM bars has lifted. I hope it is not
too expensive to rectify. Do you think it was your 50 mph in third gear
that caused this in the end? 

If so, this just proves the necessity for some sort of shaft speed indicator
in my view and is another good reason to go AC! It is a shame that Netgain
can't fit a simple sensor at manufacture rather than the EV'er having to
mess about adding one later. The cost would be minimal and the benefit to
end-user substantial. 

Regards, Martin Winlow, Herts, UK
http://www.evalbum.com/2092
www.winlow.co.uk




> -----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf
Of ev99saturn
Sent: Saturday, 29 August 2009 14:51
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [EVDL] ticking motor


Martin,

Your motor sounds ok to me. The ticking sound I am getting is a lot
louder. Here is a short video of mine motor running. 
http://www.nabble.com/file/p25203097/motor-ticking2.wmv motor-ticking2.wmv 

It appears that one of the commutator bars is raised causing the clicking
sound. One bar is blackened. I am waiting to hear from ADC if it is
covered by warranty, my distributor says unlikely. If they are not going
to cover it, then I am going to bring the armature to a local machine shop
to have the commutator bars re-rounded on a lathe.

Wayne




> martinwinlow wrote:
> >
> > Wayne,
> >
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] ticking motor*



> EVDL Administrator wrote:
> > When I had a 96 volt series motor (Prestolite) in a Honda Civic, I
> > calculated the maximum safe speeds in each gear... I do recall that
> > the motor wouldn't quite reach them when driving on flat ground. The
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] ticking motor*

Martin,

Not sure if there is more than one raised com bar, but the motor is coming
out this weekend so I can get a better look. I measured the tire
circumference as part of the rpm calculation. I previously posted 2nd an
4th, but meant to publish numbers for 3rd instead. Based on these numbers
I do not think that I exceeded rpm, or even came close. I did hit about 55
(once) in 3rd, which seems well below any max rpm mentioned so far in this
thread.

rpm vs speed calculated for 3rd gear: 1000 rpm = 14.8 mph, 2000 rpm = 29.6
mph, 3000 rpm = 44.4 mph, 4000 rpm = 59.2 mph, 5000 rpm = 74 mph. I
believe that these numbers are reasonable, could be off slightly based on
the circumference measurement of a tire. If anyone sees a flaw in my
calculation (above in this thread), please chime in! It seems to agree
with the numbers from the evcalc.

The motor is a single shaft, so I do not know of a way to measure rpm on it. 
All I can do is to be cautious with the car's speed in lower gears.

Once I know the final cure and cost, I will update this thread.

Wayne




> martinwinlow wrote:
> >
> > Hi Wayne,
> >
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] ticking motor*

Here is a mph to rpm vs tire rolling circumference formula:


 RPM x Tire Circumference
Mph = --------------------------
Overall Gear ratio x 1056


Or converted to:


Mph x Overall Gear ratio x 1056
RPM = -------------------------------
Tire Circumference


The constant 1056 is deride from (5280 x 12)/60.

5280 = feet per mile
5280 x 12 = inches per mile
60 = minutes per hour

The Tire Circumference is measure at the maximum PSI that is rated on the 
side of the tire. Put one mark on the tire and on the ground and roll it 
one turn and put another mark on the ground. This the rolling circumference 
in inches.

This formula can also be deride using the diameter of the tire, but it is 
harder to measure while there is a load on the tire.

Another way we measure the no of turns a tire makes in a mile, is by using 
rally equipment or by use of the new electronic rpm-speedo meter and a 
combination tachometer that gives you a total amount of turns. We run a 
exact measure mile and the counter will give you the number of turns of the 
wheel.

Roland

Roland


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "ev99saturn" <[email protected]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Saturday, August 29, 2009 10:53 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] ticking motor


>
> Martin,
>
> Not sure if there is more than one raised com bar, but the motor is coming
> out this weekend so I can get a better look. I measured the tire
> circumference as part of the rpm calculation. I previously posted 2nd an
> 4th, but meant to publish numbers for 3rd instead. Based on these 
> numbers
> I do not think that I exceeded rpm, or even came close. I did hit about 
> 55
> (once) in 3rd, which seems well below any max rpm mentioned so far in this
> thread.
>
> rpm vs speed calculated for 3rd gear: 1000 rpm = 14.8 mph, 2000 rpm = 29.6
> mph, 3000 rpm = 44.4 mph, 4000 rpm = 59.2 mph, 5000 rpm = 74 mph. I
> believe that these numbers are reasonable, could be off slightly based on
> the circumference measurement of a tire. If anyone sees a flaw in my
> calculation (above in this thread), please chime in! It seems to agree
> with the numbers from the evcalc.
>
> The motor is a single shaft, so I do not know of a way to measure rpm on 
> it.
> All I can do is to be cautious with the car's speed in lower gears.
>
> Once I know the final cure and cost, I will update this thread.
>
> Wayne
>
>


> > martinwinlow wrote:
> > >
> > > Hi Wayne,
> > >
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] ticking motor*

Thanks Roland,

If I take the local machine shop lathe route, which seems likely at this
point, then a set of stones as you describe is needed. I found the
following stones, but they are medium and soft; instead of rough, medium and
fine. I presume that soft would equal fine. There are several sizes of
each stone, what size would be best suited for a motor of this size?

http://www.mcmaster.com/#catalog/115/934/=3evcyh

Should I look to replace the bearings in the process? The motor only has
about 60-70 
hours on it, but someone suggested to me to replace them as they might be
damaged in removal.

Wayne





> Roland Wiench wrote:
> >
> > When I ran my new Warp 9 on 12 volts, it did do a very load clicking
> > noise.
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] ticking motor*

Hello Wayne,

It is best to take the motor to a motor shop that can also turn the motor 
and dress it out, not just a machine shop. Motor bearings normally do not 
have to replace until there is about 10 miles on it, but the bearings should 
be check for any forward and back movement. If this movement is out of 
specs, then the motor shop will replace them.

Some motor shops have a brush rigging, where they can place the motor 
brushes in a holder and seat them in either using the stone, or some fasten 
on a sanding surface on the commentator to get a exact curve. Then make sure 
they take off the commentatotor bar sharp edges which they have a tool bar 
to do this and then finally have them micro-mirror it by using a very fine 
polishing cloth.

Also the motor shop will do a spin balance of the commentator and shaft with 
the bearing set and even have the motor coupler attach to it while they 
balance it. They have to rotate the taper lock bushing one turn and then 
mark it so when I reinstall it, it will be in the same position. This 
little bit allow the motor shaft to spin up 10,000 rpm very smoothly.

One more thing, while you have the rotor out, is to motor enamel the front 
of the communtator down to the motor shaft and up to the bearing surfaces. 
This area cumulates brush dust and will decrease the resistance from the 
wire terminal to the frame of the motor. You can apply this enamel yourself 
by using a spray can of this stuff that you can get from the motor shop.

Normally this resistance when a motor is new and never been run will be over 
20 million ohms. As time goes on, this resistance will drop between 30 and 
50 K ohms in about 10 years of running. If the resistance is this low, it 
is time to clean and recondition the motor.

Roland




----- Original Message ----- 
From: "ev99saturn" <[email protected]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Sunday, August 30, 2009 6:19 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] ticking motor


>
> Thanks Roland,
>
> If I take the local machine shop lathe route, which seems likely at this
> point, then a set of stones as you describe is needed. I found the
> following stones, but they are medium and soft; instead of rough, medium 
> and
> fine. I presume that soft would equal fine. There are several sizes of
> each stone, what size would be best suited for a motor of this size?
>
> http://www.mcmaster.com/#catalog/115/934/=3evcyh
>
> Should I look to replace the bearings in the process? The motor only has
> about 60-70
> hours on it, but someone suggested to me to replace them as they might be
> damaged in removal.
>
> Wayne
>
>
>


> > Roland Wiench wrote:
> > >
> > > When I ran my new Warp 9 on 12 volts, it did do a very load clicking
> > > noise.
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] ticking motor*

Roland, you do mean 100,000 miles on the motor bearings, not 10 miles, 
correct?

Joseph H. Strubhar

Web: www.gremcoinc.com

E-mail: [email protected]


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Roland Wiench" <[email protected]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Sunday, August 30, 2009 7:26 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] ticking motor


> Hello Wayne,
>
> It is best to take the motor to a motor shop that can also turn the motor 
> and dress it out, not just a machine shop. Motor bearings normally do not 
> have to replace until there is about 10 miles on it, but the bearings 
> should be check for any forward and back movement. If this movement is 
> out of specs, then the motor shop will replace them.
>
> Some motor shops have a brush rigging, where they can place the motor 
> brushes in a holder and seat them in either using the stone, or some 
> fasten on a sanding surface on the commentator to get a exact curve. Then 
> make sure they take off the commentatotor bar sharp edges which they have 
> a tool bar to do this and then finally have them micro-mirror it by using 
> a very fine polishing cloth.
>
> Also the motor shop will do a spin balance of the commentator and shaft 
> with the bearing set and even have the motor coupler attach to it while 
> they balance it. They have to rotate the taper lock bushing one turn and 
> then mark it so when I reinstall it, it will be in the same position. 
> This little bit allow the motor shaft to spin up 10,000 rpm very smoothly.
>
> One more thing, while you have the rotor out, is to motor enamel the front 
> of the communtator down to the motor shaft and up to the bearing surfaces. 
> This area cumulates brush dust and will decrease the resistance from the 
> wire terminal to the frame of the motor. You can apply this enamel 
> yourself by using a spray can of this stuff that you can get from the 
> motor shop.
>
> Normally this resistance when a motor is new and never been run will be 
> over 20 million ohms. As time goes on, this resistance will drop between 
> 30 and 50 K ohms in about 10 years of running. If the resistance is this 
> low, it is time to clean and recondition the motor.
>
> Roland
>
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "ev99saturn" <[email protected]>
> To: <[email protected]>
> Sent: Sunday, August 30, 2009 6:19 AM
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] ticking motor
>
>
>>
>> Thanks Roland,
>>
>> If I take the local machine shop lathe route, which seems likely at this
>> point, then a set of stones as you describe is needed. I found the
>> following stones, but they are medium and soft; instead of rough, medium 
>> and
>> fine. I presume that soft would equal fine. There are several sizes 
>> of
>> each stone, what size would be best suited for a motor of this size?
>>
>> http://www.mcmaster.com/#catalog/115/934/=3evcyh
>>
>> Should I look to replace the bearings in the process? The motor only 
>> has
>> about 60-70
>> hours on it, but someone suggested to me to replace them as they might be
>> damaged in removal.
>>
>> Wayne
>>
>>
>>


> >> Roland Wiench wrote:
> >> >
> >> > When I ran my new Warp 9 on 12 volts, it did do a very load clicking
> >> > noise.
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] ticking motor*

If you can access the comm without taking the motor apart, you can use these 
stones to seat the brushes yourself. Hook the motor up to 12 volts and start 
with the coarsest stone, working down to the fine stone when the arcing is 
not noticeable. Use the width of stone that corresponds to the width of the 
brushes, if possible.

Joseph H. Strubhar

Web: www.gremcoinc.com

E-mail: [email protected]


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "ev99saturn" <[email protected]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Sunday, August 30, 2009 6:19 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] ticking motor


>
> Thanks Roland,
>
> If I take the local machine shop lathe route, which seems likely at this
> point, then a set of stones as you describe is needed. I found the
> following stones, but they are medium and soft; instead of rough, medium 
> and
> fine. I presume that soft would equal fine. There are several sizes of
> each stone, what size would be best suited for a motor of this size?
>
> http://www.mcmaster.com/#catalog/115/934/=3evcyh
>
> Should I look to replace the bearings in the process? The motor only has
> about 60-70
> hours on it, but someone suggested to me to replace them as they might be
> damaged in removal.
>
> Wayne
>
>
>


> > Roland Wiench wrote:
> >>
> >> When I ran my new Warp 9 on 12 volts, it did do a very load clicking
> >> noise.
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] ticking motor*

I mean 10 years or 10,000 miles. This also depends on how many start and 
stops you do. A very good bearing set with only two start and stops a day 
may go 20 years.

I normally take out the motor and transmission every 10 years and install a 
spare set which I can drive the EV the next day and take my time to 
recondition the motor for the next 10 year exchange.

Roland


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "joe" <[email protected]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Sunday, August 30, 2009 4:38 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] ticking motor


> Roland, you do mean 100,000 miles on the motor bearings, not 10 miles,
> correct?
>
> Joseph H. Strubhar
>
> Web: www.gremcoinc.com
>
> E-mail: [email protected]
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Roland Wiench" <[email protected]>
> To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
> Sent: Sunday, August 30, 2009 7:26 AM
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] ticking motor
>
>
> > Hello Wayne,
> >
> > It is best to take the motor to a motor shop that can also turn the 
> > motor
> > and dress it out, not just a machine shop. Motor bearings normally do 
> > not
> > have to replace until there is about 10 miles on it, but the bearings
> > should be check for any forward and back movement. If this movement is
> > out of specs, then the motor shop will replace them.
> >
> > Some motor shops have a brush rigging, where they can place the motor
> > brushes in a holder and seat them in either using the stone, or some
> > fasten on a sanding surface on the commentator to get a exact curve. 
> > Then
> > make sure they take off the commentatotor bar sharp edges which they 
> > have
> > a tool bar to do this and then finally have them micro-mirror it by 
> > using
> > a very fine polishing cloth.
> >
> > Also the motor shop will do a spin balance of the commentator and shaft
> > with the bearing set and even have the motor coupler attach to it while
> > they balance it. They have to rotate the taper lock bushing one turn 
> > and
> > then mark it so when I reinstall it, it will be in the same position.
> > This little bit allow the motor shaft to spin up 10,000 rpm very 
> > smoothly.
> >
> > One more thing, while you have the rotor out, is to motor enamel the 
> > front
> > of the communtator down to the motor shaft and up to the bearing 
> > surfaces.
> > This area cumulates brush dust and will decrease the resistance from the
> > wire terminal to the frame of the motor. You can apply this enamel
> > yourself by using a spray can of this stuff that you can get from the
> > motor shop.
> >
> > Normally this resistance when a motor is new and never been run will be
> > over 20 million ohms. As time goes on, this resistance will drop 
> > between
> > 30 and 50 K ohms in about 10 years of running. If the resistance is 
> > this
> > low, it is time to clean and recondition the motor.
> >
> > Roland
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message ----- 
> > From: "ev99saturn" <[email protected]>
> > To: <[email protected]>
> > Sent: Sunday, August 30, 2009 6:19 AM
> > Subject: Re: [EVDL] ticking motor
> >
> >
> >>
> >> Thanks Roland,
> >>
> >> If I take the local machine shop lathe route, which seems likely at 
> >> this
> >> point, then a set of stones as you describe is needed. I found the
> >> following stones, but they are medium and soft; instead of rough, 
> >> medium
> >> and
> >> fine. I presume that soft would equal fine. There are several sizes
> >> of
> >> each stone, what size would be best suited for a motor of this size?
> >>
> >> http://www.mcmaster.com/#catalog/115/934/=3evcyh
> >>
> >> Should I look to replace the bearings in the process? The motor only
> >> has
> >> about 60-70
> >> hours on it, but someone suggested to me to replace them as they might 
> >> be
> >> damaged in removal.
> >>
> >> Wayne
> >>
> >>
> >>


> > >> Roland Wiench wrote:
> > >> >
> > >> > When I ran my new Warp 9 on 12 volts, it did do a very load clicking
> > >> > noise.
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] ticking motor*

T24gTW9uLCBBdWcgMzEsIDIwMDkgYXQgMjowOSBBTSwgUm9sYW5kIFdpZW5jaDxldl83QG1zbi5j
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dHA6Ly9ldmRsLm9yZy9hcmNoaXZlLwpTdWJzY3JpcHRpb24gb3B0aW9uczogaHR0cDovL2xpc3Rz
LnNqc3UuZWR1L21haWxtYW4vbGlzdGluZm8vZXYKCg==


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] ticking motor*

I agree - should be more like 50,000 at least - but it depends on the motor, 
and the enviroment somewhat.

Joseph H. Strubhar

Web: www.gremcoinc.com

E-mail: [email protected]


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Evan Tuer" <[email protected]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, August 31, 2009 1:51 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] ticking motor


>


> Roland Wiench<[email protected]> wrote:
> >> I mean 10 years or 10,000 miles. This also depends on how many start and
> >> stops you do. A very good bearing set with only two start and stops a day
> >> may go 20 years.
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] ticking motor*

The maximum amount of miles I drive in 10 years was 18,250 miles. I 
normally pull the motor every 10 years to recondition it, and while I have 
it out, I change the bearings. The bearings always look good, but when I 
had them check out in a bearing indicator at a bearing shop, the front 
bearing was still in specifications +- 1% of travel and the rear drive 
bearing always have more then 3% more in forward travel.

The lateral movement should not be more then in 0.0001 inch, but should not 
go below 0.001 inch.

Roland


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "joe" <[email protected]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, August 31, 2009 5:54 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] ticking motor


> I agree - should be more like 50,000 at least - but it depends on the 
> motor,
> and the enviroment somewhat.
>
> Joseph H. Strubhar
>
> Web: www.gremcoinc.com
>
> E-mail: [email protected]
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Evan Tuer" <[email protected]>
> To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
> Sent: Monday, August 31, 2009 1:51 AM
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] ticking motor
>
>
> >


> Roland Wiench<[email protected]> wrote:
> > >> I mean 10 years or 10,000 miles. This also depends on how many start
> > >> and
> > >> stops you do. A very good bearing set with only two start and stops a
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] ticking motor*



> On 31 Aug 2009 at 5:54, joe wrote:
> 
> > should be more like 50,000 at least
> 
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] ticking motor*

----- Original Message -----
From: "Roland Wiench"
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List"
Subject: Re: [EVDL] ticking motor
Date: Mon, 31 Aug 2009 07:05:10 -0700


The maximum amount of miles I drive in 10 years was 18,250 miles. I
normally pull the motor every 10 years to recondition it, and while I
have
it out, I change the bearings. The bearings always look good, but
when I
had them check out in a bearing indicator at a bearing shop, the
front
bearing was still in specifications +- 1% of travel and the rear
drive
bearing always have more then 3% more in forward travel.

The lateral movement should not be more then in 0.0001 inch, but
should not
go below 0.001 inch.

Roland

Please excuse my penchant for detail but shouldn't that read,"not more
than 0.001 but not less than 0.0001 inch?"


Dennis Miles, (Director)
Electric Vehicle Training Institute 
"Training Tech/Mechs to service
Tomorrows Electric Vehicles!"
in Central Florida

-- 
An Excellent Credit Score is 750 
See Yours in Just 2 Easy Steps!

-------------- next part --------------
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_______________________________________________
General EVDL support: http://evdl.org/help/
Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
Archives: http://evdl.org/archive/
Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] ticking motor*

That's right.


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Dennis Miles" <[email protected]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, August 31, 2009 9:35 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] ticking motor


> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Roland Wiench"
> To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List"
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] ticking motor
> Date: Mon, 31 Aug 2009 07:05:10 -0700
>
>
> The maximum amount of miles I drive in 10 years was 18,250 miles. I
> normally pull the motor every 10 years to recondition it, and while I
> have
> it out, I change the bearings. The bearings always look good, but
> when I
> had them check out in a bearing indicator at a bearing shop, the
> front
> bearing was still in specifications +- 1% of travel and the rear
> drive
> bearing always have more then 3% more in forward travel.
>
> The lateral movement should not be more then in 0.0001 inch, but
> should not
> go below 0.001 inch.
>
> Roland
>
> Please excuse my penchant for detail but shouldn't that read,"not more
> than 0.001 but not less than 0.0001 inch?"
>
>
> Dennis Miles, (Director)
> Electric Vehicle Training Institute
> "Training Tech/Mechs to service
> Tomorrows Electric Vehicles!"
> in Central Florida
>
> -- 
> An Excellent Credit Score is 750
> See Yours in Just 2 Easy Steps!
>
> -------------- next part --------------
> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
> URL: 
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/private/ev/attachments/20090831/f1209eef/attachment.html
> _______________________________________________
> General EVDL support: http://evdl.org/help/
> Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
> Archives: http://evdl.org/archive/
> Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>
> 

_______________________________________________
General EVDL support: http://evdl.org/help/
Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
Archives: http://evdl.org/archive/
Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] ticking motor*

CgpGb3Igd2hhdCBpdHMgd29ydGggLCBJIGhhdmUgc2VlbiB0aGlzIHdoZW4gYSBtb3RvciBpcyBo
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Cgo=


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] ticking motor*

Jeff - The motor has about 2500 miles on it. The commutator looks good
except for 2 blackened contacts, where I presume the ticking comes from. 
There is a slightly wider gap next to them than compared to the other gaps. 
Could this be deteriorated metal from arcing? The motor has about 1 hour
of operation after the ticking started. 

I can't spin it at the moment, the motor and trans are now suspended and
about to come out.

Your mph per rpm calculations are similar to mine, so this helps to confirm
that the motor did not fail due to excess rpm, which leaves overheating and
manufacturing defect.

Wayne





> Jeff Shanab wrote:
> >
> >
> > How many miles on the motor?
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] ticking motor*



> ev99saturn wrote:
> 
> > I am using the Advanced DC FB-4001A motor, which is rated to 7000 rpm
> > according to http://www.evconvert.com/tools/evcalc/ I
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] ticking motor*



> [email protected] wrote:
> 
> > The Zilla
> > control can shut down the control in the event of overspeed,
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] ticking motor*

Although my max calculations were for 7000 rpm, based on the highest speed in
2nd or 3rd, the motor never even reached 4000 rpm. 

The stall condition you describe may be the closest hit yet. I did
recently hold it in place, or just inch along in slow traffic, but on a very
slight incline; keeping the power in the curtis whine range.

Wayne





> Roger Stockton wrote:
> >
> > ev99saturn wrote:
> >
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] ticking motor*



> Ev99saturn wrote:
> 
> > Although my max calculations were for 7000 rpm, based on the
> > highest speed in 2nd or 3rd, the motor never even reached 4000 rpm.
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] ticking motor*

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Roger Stockton" <[email protected]>
To: "'Electric Vehicle Discussion List'" <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, September 02, 2009 12:35 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] ticking motor




> > Ev99saturn wrote:
> >
> >> Although my max calculations were for 7000 rpm, based on the
> >> highest speed in 2nd or 3rd, the motor never even reached 4000 rpm.
> ...


----------

