# [EVDL] Direct drive of pickup truck



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> I have read a number of the archived postings addressing the efficiency
> concerns with using a DC motor to directly drive the rear differential of
> a car or truck at low sppeds. I am interested in directly driving a pickup
> truck without using the transmission. I only care about driving around
> town and would not need to drive faster than 65 mph. I do not have any
> significant hills to climb either. I have not picked out the truck but was
> looking at a nissan frontier or something similar. What type of motor
> would be best to handle the lower speeds without a transmission? Is an AC
> motor a better option for this kind of project? If anyone can recommend a
> specific motor, it would be greatly appreciated. Thanks
>

You'll want at least an 11" series wound motor, a 13" if you can find one.
See if you can find a replacement ring and pinion for the diff, at least
5:1 ratio. 7:1 would be better, but I doubt you'll find that.
You'll want a Z2k.

I don't think you want an AC motor unless you plan on having a custom 10:1
diff built. But I haven't kept up with the latest offerings, so perhaps
there is an AC motor that produces good torque at 4-5000 rpm.

_______________________________________________
For subscription options, see
http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Michael Rowland wrote:
> > I am interested in directly driving a pickup truck without using the transmission... What type of motor would be best to handle the lower speeds without a transmission? Is an AC motor a better option for this kind of project? If anyone can recommend a specific motor, it would be greatly appreciated.
> >
> Both DC and AC motors can be used for direct drive. There are lots of
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

What size pickup?

I recall asking the same thing, and being told that the current requirements
on hills would make this a no go.

The vehicle being considered was a jeep/sidekick/tracker type vehicle, and
the plan was to hook the motor directly to the transfercase (or to the
driveshaft input using a samurai divorce t-case in a tracker).

The tracker/sidekick comes with 5:13 gears and 1:1 in the t-case, whereas
the sammy has 3.73 gears and 1.409 high (5.25overall) and 2.268 low (8.45).
This results in a 7.18 overall in a sidekick/tracker, with a low of 11.63.

Or, if the relatively cheap aftermarket 4.16 gearset is used, 1.57 x 5.13 =
8.1 high and 4.16 x 5.13 = 21.3 low. Using 31" tires and 70mph, RPM = 6145,
in the realm of either AC or DC. Plus...it could be left in low for surface
street driving. That's pretty fast for that little propeller shaft to be
spinning though.

I suppose anything is possible with a big enough motor and controller? I
suppose that I need to do my own research on motors and controllers (it
usually leaves my head spinning).

Best regards,
Brett



> Lee Hart <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> > Michael Rowland wrote:
> > > I am interested in directly driving a pickup truck without using the
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Michael Rowland wrote:
> > I have read a number of the archived postings addressing the efficiency concerns with using a DC motor to directly drive the rear differential of a car or truck at low sppeds. I am interested in directly driving a pickup truck without using the transmission. I only care about driving around town and would not need to drive faster than 65 mph. I do not have any significant hills to climb either. I have not picked out the truck but was looking at a nissan frontier or something similar. What type of motor would be best to handle the lower speeds without a transmission? Is an AC motor a better option for this kind of project? If anyone can recommend a specific motor, it would be greatly appreciated. Thanks
> >
> My simulations show 11" and 9" motors running at 144-156V (or less)
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

What amps and torque were you expecting?
How heavy a conversion were you assuming?

The adc 9" (fb4001) in a friends BMW 318i, with a 4.3:1 diff and 15" wheels
does fine with direct to diff.
It is of course backed by a zilla 1k with a 144v 160AH TS pack.
It really hauls from 40mph to 60mph (gets 85kw from the batt at that speed)

Matt

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf
Of Cory Cross
Sent: Saturday, 21 February 2009 1:47 PM
To: [email protected]; Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Direct drive of pickup truck



> Michael Rowland wrote:
> > I have read a number of the archived postings addressing the
> > efficiency concerns with using a DC motor to directly drive the rear
> > differential of a car or truck at low sppeds. I am interested in
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> On Saturday 21 February 2009 04:15 am, matt wrote:
> > It really hauls from 40mph to 60mph (gets 85kw from the batt at that
> speed)
> 
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> matt wrote:
> > What amps and torque were you expecting?
> > How heavy a conversion were you assuming?
> >
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

85kw is the power plateu when the batteries arent capable of driving the
zilla and fb4001 to full power between 40mph and 60mph.
On battery side this is 710A at 120V.

It is a continuous 85kw (between 40mph and 60mph)

Matt

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf
Of Randy Kramer
Sent: Saturday, 21 February 2009 11:35 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Direct drive of pickup truck



> On Saturday 21 February 2009 04:15 am, matt wrote:
> > It really hauls from 40mph to 60mph (gets 85kw from the batt at that
> speed)
> 
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> On Saturday 21 February 2009 11:51 am, matt wrote:
> > 85kw is the power plateu when the batteries arent capable of driving
> the
> > zilla and fb4001 to full power between 40mph and 60mph.
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

No no, if you were applying 85kw continuous, you would be going 100mph+
85kw is the max avail when you are at full throttle when traveling between
40mph and 60mph
Power needed to maintain 60mph is *much* less

45 x 160AH cells are good for 15.5kwh ((160AH*0.9*0.8)*3vpc*45cells) when
discharged at 21.6kw (160A*3vpc*45cells) continuous.
17.2kwh (160AH*0.95*0.8)*3.15vpc*45cells when discharging at 11.3kw
(80A*3.15vpc*45cells) continuous.
This assumes batteries still meet original rating, temp is around 15 deg C,
80%dod is the limit, and the cells behave similar to what I have already
seen.

On the datasheet, the discharge curves indicate at 1C, only 90% of the AH is
avail if you respect the 2.5v limit.
Multiply by 0.8 to correct for 80%dod.
The slower you discharge, the higher the average voltage, and the more avail
AH.

Matt

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf
Of Randy Kramer
Sent: Sunday, 22 February 2009 2:27 AM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Direct drive of pickup truck



> On Saturday 21 February 2009 11:51 am, matt wrote:
> > 85kw is the power plateu when the batteries arent capable of driving
> the
> > zilla and fb4001 to full power between 40mph and 60mph.
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> On Saturday 21 February 2009 01:01 pm, matt wrote:
> > No no, if you were applying 85kw continuous, you would be going
> 100mph+
> > 85kw is the max avail when you are at full throttle when traveling
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Cory Cross wrote:
> 
> > Michael Rowland wrote:
> >> I have read a number of the archived postings addressing the
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Cory Cross wrote:
> >> My simulations show 11" and 9" motors running at 144-156V (or less)
> >> cannot have both hill climbing ability and anything-but-pathetic
> >> 60mph acceleration.
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Lee Hart wrote:
> ...
> > Torque: With about 1000 lbs on the 24" diameter back tires, the most
> > torque they can handle without spinning is around 1000 ft-lbs. With the
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Lee Hart <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> > Cory Cross wrote:
> >>> My simulations show 11" and 9" motors running at 144-156V (or less)
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Peter_VanDerWal wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Jack Rickard wrote:
> 
> > I'm looking at a 2005 Land Rover Range Rover. Someone stole the
> > vehicle AND
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

On the original question... it doesn't seem like a pickup truck is any
harder than anything else to make direct drive -- it's just a sedan with a
different shape. Except, that a pickup is likely to be used in different
ways than most other cars. Are you still going to possibly want to move a
few couches or a load of bathroom tiles with it, and want the lower gearing
of a transmission? Or pull someone out of the ditch? Stuff that pickups
always seem to get used for, but often not cars.

That being said, the factory ford ranger electric is direct drive, and I
used it like a regular pickup truck -- hauling heavy stuff, driving off road
to worksites, etc, and it was fine.

Z


>
_______________________________________________
General EVDL support: http://evdl.org/help/
Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
Archives: http://evdl.org/archive/
Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Roger Heuckeroth wrote:
> > Oh yes I guess a electric forklift can be considered an "EV". I'll
> > have to be more specific next time and say battery only electric
> > street legal car or truck. The point is when the engineers designed
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Was that the one with the Seimens motor?



> Zeke Yewdall <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> > On the original question... it doesn't seem like a pickup truck is any
> > harder than anything else to make direct drive -- it's just a sedan
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Lee Hart wrote:
> 
> >>>
> >>> For example, my Sunrise EV2 has a WarP 9" motor, 2000amp Zilla
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Roger Heuckeroth wrote:
> > However, stipulating to all the above, I can not see the series DC
> > brushed motor and the DC PWM controller as the best possible, and
> > affordable technology for EV conversions. Its the best available, but
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Lee Hart wrote:
> 
> > Roger Heuckeroth wrote:
> >> However, stipulating to all the above, I can not see the series DC
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> On Sunday 22 February 2009 05:29 pm, Lee Hart wrote:
> > Roger Heuckeroth wrote:
> > > However, stipulating to all the above, I can not see the series DC
> > > brushed motor and the DC PWM controller as the best possible, and
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Jack Rickard wrote:
> >
> > Peter_VanDerWal wrote:
> >
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Lee Hart wrote:
> > > It's possible; but it's also a major engineering effort. So far,
> > > the market for such a system is too small for anyone to spend a
> > > million dollars and a man-year to develop it.
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Lee Hart wrote:
> 
> > Lee Hart wrote:
> >>> It's possible; but it's also a major engineering effort. So far,
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Roger Heuckeroth wrote:
> >
> >
> > Jack,
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Zeke Yewdall wrote:
> >
> > On the original question... it doesn't seem like a pickup truck is any
> > harder than anything else to make direct drive -- it's just a sedan with
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Roger Heuckeroth wrote:
> > There should be no reason that an AC motor with high RPM capability
> > suitable for direct drive, and a regen capable three phase controller
> > can't be developed and brought to market at similar or lower pricing
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Rick Beebe <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> >
> > Thunderstruck Motors is selling a new combo of an HPCG motor and Curtis
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Rick Beebe wrote:
> 
> > Roger Heuckeroth wrote:
> >> There should be no reason that an AC motor with high RPM capability
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Zeke Yewdall wrote:
>


> Rick Beebe <[email protected]> wrote:
> >
> >> Thunderstruck Motors is selling a new combo of an HPCG motor and Curtis
> >> 1238 AC controller for $4300. I don't think the motor has enough oomph
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> >Roger Heuckeroth wrote:
> > >
> > > Jack,
> > >
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Here's the funny thing.... the motor itself, when it arrived, only says 10HP
continuous, and 35HP peak on the motor -- about the same as the ADC 6.7"
motor at 96 volt ratings I think. Brian said that it felt peppier than the
8" ADC in the metro though... so... hard to know. Obviously, we're always
wayyyy overdriving the series DC motors in EV's, with okay results most the
time...

Having driving alot of little underpowered diesels (rabbit's, 80's NA
pickups), the low end torque (that motor might have twice the torque at
1000rpm as the Miata engine) can make up for alot of lack of rated
horsepower, just driving it around town. It won't make up for highway speed
on hills, or acceleration if you really want to redline it to each shift
though. And... I've never driven one of these AC motor combos... no idea if
it feels anything like an underpowered diesel or not....

Z



> Rick Beebe <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> > Zeke Yewdall wrote:
> > > On Mon, Feb 23, 2009 at 9:42 AM, Rick Beebe <[email protected]> wrote:
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

The reason for the steering getting all stiff in low range is because it
probably locks the center differential when you put it into low range, so
the front and rear axles can't turn at different speeds -- and hence the
vehicle is quite reluctant to make turns on dry pavement. Older ones are
locked in high 4wd as well, but newer ones sometimes have an all wheel drive
high range in addition or instead of the 4wd high range.



> Grant Stockly <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> >
> > >Roger Heuckeroth wrote:
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Roger Heuckeroth wrote:
> > Azure's products are OK, but I think a bit overpriced. I considered
> > the AC55 for my conversion, but look at the way torque falls off over
> > 2000 RPM. Their target for this product was city going delivery
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Zeke Yewdall wrote:
> > Having driving alot of little underpowered diesels (rabbit's, 80's NA
> > pickups), the low end torque (that motor might have twice the torque at
> > 1000rpm as the Miata engine) can make up for alot of lack of rated
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Roger Heuckeroth wrote:
> 
> >> Thunderstruck Motors is selling a new combo of an HPCG motor and
> >> Curtis
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Haha. I will.... but I'm waiting for my transmission adaptor still..... 



> Rick Beebe <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> > Zeke Yewdall wrote:
> > > Having driving alot of little underpowered diesels (rabbit's, 80's NA
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Rick Beebe wrote:
> 
> > Roger Heuckeroth wrote:
> >> Azure's products are OK, but I think a bit overpriced. I considered
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

I think the steering trouble Roger is talking about is because he has a 4x4 
NPT AWD. An all time all wheel drive has a center diffriential to allow the 
fron aand rear tires to rotate at diffrent speeds. Without it, the 4x4 wants 
to push forward in a straight line when you try to make a turn.

If you have AWD, I'd guess you can shift into 2 and 4 wheel drive on the fly 
but not Hi and Low. Although being electric this may be different. If the 
gear teeth are straight cut I'd say yes you could, if they are spiral cut 
I'd say no you cant.

Stub





> Jack Rickard wrote:
> > Good question. I'll ask. I was totally unaware of steering changes.
> > But that could probably be disconnected or otherwise disabled. I
> > don't know if you can switch on the fly.
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

As I recall, many of the Land Rovers use underdriven transfercases,
fulltime 4wd, and typically front AND rear offset, indicating a gear driven
design (vs chain). Pirate will certainly have info, as will many Rover
enthusiast sites. Google the Rover model and transfercase and it may reveal
several sources of information. What year and model Rover is it?

My NP205 can occasionally be shifted on the fly...if the planets are
properly aligned on even numbered days in odd numbered months.

A transfercase with a planetary gearset has a distinctive whine in low
range. Most transfercases since 1980 use this design, with the Suzuki
Samurai, Jeep CJ Dana 300 ('80-'86) and aftermarket Atlas among the
exceptions.

Brett


> Grant Stockly <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> > At 01:04 PM 2/23/2009, you wrote:
> >
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

My brother has an 89 Toyota lifted 4x4 stock from the factory. It has th=
e extra cab. It consistently gets 30mpg. What would happen if you stu=
ck a 9 inch on the rear end & another 9 inch on the front diff. Eliminat=
e the transfer case. Wouldn't the electric motors absorb the turning str=
esses you normally get when driving on dry pavement. No tranny just use =
a 2k zilla and you could even shift parallel & series. Might be one h=
ell of a dragster if nothing else. Lawrence Rhodes....
_______________________________________________
General EVDL support: http://evdl.org/help/
Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
Archives: http://evdl.org/archive/
Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Yep, that all seems to be true. I've been seriously considering it.
I keep going back and forth between DC and AC motors so I haven't actually 
built anything but a frame yet.
Someone (I forget who I'm sure they are still here) sent me a link to very 
interesting project a while back when I had the same questions. 
http://www.proev.com/index.htm

Check out the history and build section of the Suburu.

Stub




> Lawrence Rhodes wrote:
> > My brother has an 89 Toyota lifted 4x4 stock from the factory. It has
> > the extra cab. It consistently gets 30mpg. What would happen if you
> > stuck a 9 inch on the rear end & another 9 inch on the front diff.
> ...


----------

