# Brian's next AC/ LiFEPO4 EV!!



## dimitri (May 16, 2008)

Direct drive, eh? Something tells me this is going to be difficult. Are you going to have custom gear ratio on your differential?

With direct drive you have to compromise between decent top speed and decent acceleration, if you go in the middle, you may end up with neither.

Why not go with automatic tranny? It works great for me.....

As for battery, you will get about 50 miles range at 80% DoD with this config. Is that what you expected?

It will be a very interesting build though, good luck....

P.S. My only concern with used AC motor/controller is lack of warranty. What if something happens to the controller? Also, I heard these are older models and may have some issues with regen.


----------



## PatricioIN (Jun 13, 2008)

I love the newest body style of Hyndai Accent or Kia Rio (both under 2400lbs)... don't know how much you plan on spending on the car itself, but if you're going that route with AC and Lithium, then it should be a nice looking car.

Oh, the new Yaris has electric power steering as do (I believe) the Scions.


----------



## TheSGC (Nov 15, 2007)

Nice, another EV!

If you are set on direct drive, you may try out the AT1200 transmission from Azure Dynamics. I know the performance with the AC24 and direct drive is not great in a Geo Metro, and the Solectria Geos have a top speed of about 60-65 MPH and it takes a while to get there. 

The AC55 on the other hand should be quite nice, but I would still opt for a transmission, something with 2 speeds, like a 10:1 and a 6:1 for a decent performance. The AT1200 has a 10:1 ratio.


----------



## lottos (Jun 22, 2008)

dimitri said:


> Direct drive, eh? Something tells me this is going to be difficult. Are you going to have custom gear ratio on your differential?
> 
> With direct drive you have to compromise between decent top speed and decent acceleration, if you go in the middle, you may end up with neither.
> 
> Why not go with automatic tranny? It works great for me.....


I'm not qualified to say it will or won't work but 

http://www.evcomponents.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=AC55 says

"With its high rpm limit, the AC 55 motor can be used without a conventional transmission for shift-free driving, or it can be coupled to a standard manual transmission."


----------



## dimitri (May 16, 2008)

I have no doubt that direct drive with AC55 can work, but the devil is in details, specifically gear ratio selection for direct drive and size/weight of the car. It may be very difficult to get both acceleration and top speed in a 3000lb car ( just an example ) with 4 people in it. It would suck if such a great and expensive build turns out to be poor performer. I just hope that Brian calculates all pros and cons before making final decisions.

AC55 is incredibly heavy for its specs, like extra 100 lbs compared to similar power DC motors, plus 8000 RPM for AC motor is nothing to write home about, plus out of warranty controller. All this combined makes it poor choice for me, but I am not trying to discourage Brian. It will be a great project and I will watch with interest.


----------



## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

dimitri said:


> Direct drive, eh? Something tells me this is going to be difficult. Are you going to have custom gear ratio on your differential?
> 
> With direct drive you have to compromise between decent top speed and decent acceleration, if you go in the middle, you may end up with neither.
> 
> ...


40-50 miles is all we are expecting,, also I would like to mount the motor directly to the rear end no no drive shaft, that surley will help efficiencies, trying to chop weight and eliminate gear reductions etc. 80 mph is estimated top speed and I am hoping for enough torque for starts. Still planning ..nothing is in stone yet. Thanks for the advice.

Brian


----------



## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

dimitri said:


> I have no doubt that direct drive with AC55 can work, but the devil is in details, specifically gear ratio selection for direct drive and size/weight of the car. It may be very difficult to get both acceleration and top speed in a 3000lb car ( just an example ) with 4 people in it. It would suck if such a great and expensive build turns out to be poor performer. I just hope that Brian calculates all pros and cons before making final decisions.
> 
> AC55 is incredibly heavy for its specs, like extra 100 lbs compared to similar power DC motors, plus 8000 RPM for AC motor is nothing to write home about, plus out of warranty controller. All this combined makes it poor choice for me, but I am not trying to discourage Brian. It will be a great project and I will watch with interest.


from my calcs I need a 4:1 rear end ratio ish I would hope that 320 volts will supply enough torque with 4 people in the car,, This is some of the advice and numbers I got from EV Components. Performance is a key I would not have a "DOGGY" conversion, I can always change stuff later. yes the motor is heavy but the advantages of the AC system verses the DC system are worth it. ( I think so)

Brian


----------



## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

lottos said:


> I'm not qualified to say it will or won't work but
> 
> http://www.evcomponents.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=AC55 says
> 
> "With its high rpm limit, the AC 55 motor can be used without a conventional transmission for shift-free driving, or it can be coupled to a standard manual transmission."



yes I saw this that is where the idea is coming from.

Brian


----------



## TheSGC (Nov 15, 2007)

That price of the AC55 is just too good to pass over. I have not had a look at the AC55 data sheets, but 4:1 seems kind of low, but I will check.


----------



## esoneson (Sep 1, 2008)

Brian,

I use: http://vexer.com/68rt/speed.html to look at rpm vs speed vs diff and tranny ratios

With 25 in tires and 4.10 rear and no trans, at 8000 rpm you will be doin' 150mph!

Play with this calculator and adjust ratios and tire sizes. This will help in deciding which diff ratio will work best.

After playing with this a lot, I came to the conclusion that a 2-speed is the only way to go.

Personally, I am going with a powerglide tranny: 1.82:1 low and 1.00:1 high gear to solve my problems.

Anyway, have fun and I will be watching this one too.

Eric


----------



## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

PatricioIN said:


> I love the newest body style of Hyndai Accent or Kia Rio (both under 2400lbs)... don't know how much you plan on spending on the car itself, but if you're going that route with AC and Lithium, then it should be a nice looking car.
> 
> Oh, the new Yaris has electric power steering as do (I believe) the Scions.


kia Sorento is the perfect donor if I can find one now. Light weight and rear wheel drive. Tranny won't matter,,,,, keep your eyes open if ya can find me one.

Brian


----------



## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

esoneson said:


> Brian,
> 
> I use: http://vexer.com/68rt/speed.html to look at rpm vs speed vs diff and tranny ratios
> 
> ...


Thats interesting because in theory if the factory ICE motor were in 4th gear its basically a 1:1 ratio it would be at perhaps 3000 rpm to do 60 mph so it sounds like the info you have is accurate,,, so it looks like a 2:1 gear box will be in order,, or an 8:1 rear end (not gonna happen) that should get me 70+ mph and have excellent excelleration as well.

Thanks man!

Brian


----------



## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

esoneson said:


> Brian,
> 
> I use: http://vexer.com/68rt/speed.html to look at rpm vs speed vs diff and tranny ratios
> 
> ...


By the way very cool tool!!!!


----------



## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

found this near by
http://kansascity.craigslist.org/ctd/1330226339.html

may look at it tomorrow


----------



## TheSGC (Nov 15, 2007)

rctous said:


> found this near by
> http://kansascity.craigslist.org/ctd/1330226339.html
> 
> may look at it tomorrow


That looks like a nice ride. A light SUV would make a nice EV mixed with an AC system. The AC55 was designed for trucks, so it should be a nice match.


----------



## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

TheSGC said:


> That looks like a nice ride. A light SUV would make a nice EV mixed with an AC system. The AC55 was designed for trucks, so it should be a nice match.


ya that was my thought as well we will see what the customer thinks


brian


----------



## samborambo (Aug 27, 2008)

Yeah, 4:1 ratio is way off. 

A of 5.5:1 with 24 inch wheels gives a 0-60mph of around 12.5s with that motor. That's in a 3000lb Toyota MR2 or Mazda RX7 with two people. You could increase the reduction further to improve acceleration. 5.5:1 is 100mph motor redline (8000RPM).

I'd give you my spreadsheet tool to work this stuff out but its pretty messy at the moment. I want to make it into an online web tool so that everyone can use it.

There must be differentials around with a ratio of 5.5:1 or thereabouts?

Sam.


----------



## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

samborambo said:


> Yeah, 4:1 ratio is way off.
> 
> A of 5.5:1 with 24 inch wheels gives a 0-60mph of around 12.5s with that motor. That's in a 3000lb Toyota MR2 or Mazda RX7 with two people. You could increase the reduction further to improve acceleration. 5.5:1 is 100mph motor redline (8000RPM).
> 
> ...


70-80 mph is plenty and I think 5.5:1 is too low 

doesn't 8:1 look better?


----------



## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

after spending more time here http://vexer.com/68rt/speed.html 150 mph = 7200 rpm with 28 inch tires(just a guess at this point) and 4.11 rear end gears that is motor/ engine rpm so if I make that reduced 2:1 I get 75 mph at 14,400 rpm right? Then that is not good either , what is wrong with the custom bar on the above site, heck then I can just plug it in? if I do 2:1 and a 4.11:1 rear end I have a reduction of 8.22:1 right or is it 6.11:1? I used the custom transmission setting on the chart and plugged in 2.0 that made about 8000rpm at 83 mph thats is perfect right?????

not to sure if the pic will post but I will try

looks like it will work


----------



## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

it shows a 4.10:1 rear end and a 2:1 transmission so a total reduction of 6.10:1 
thats right isn't it?????

Brian


----------



## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

samborambo said:


> Yeah, 4:1 ratio is way off.
> 
> A of 5.5:1 with 24 inch wheels gives a 0-60mph of around 12.5s with that motor. That's in a 3000lb Toyota MR2 or Mazda RX7 with two people. You could increase the reduction further to improve acceleration. 5.5:1 is 100mph motor redline (8000RPM).
> 
> ...


Dude you got it dead on I think a 6.0:1 or 6.5:1 is the perfect choice
now to find a rear end with that ratio would be awesome,,, I am sure I can use a different rear end from some thing else


----------



## samborambo (Aug 27, 2008)

rctous said:


> it shows a 4.10:1 rear end and a 2:1 transmission so a total reduction of 6.10:1
> thats right isn't it?????
> 
> Brian


Ratios multiply. Overall ratio would be 8.2:1


----------



## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

samborambo said:


> Ratios multiply. Overall ratio would be 8.2:1


thats what I thought the first time but that gives me about 1000 rpm at the axles right? At full throttle


----------



## samborambo (Aug 27, 2008)

rctous said:


> thats what I thought the first time but that gives me about 1000 rpm at the axles right? At full throttle


1000RPM with 24in tyres is about 70mph.


----------



## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

samborambo said:


> 1000RPM with 24in tyres is about 70mph.


but I think the tires are 27 or so
I will measure them tomorrow


----------



## Overlander23 (Jun 15, 2009)

Umm, I may be reading this wrong... but has anyone seen AD's performance curves (http://www.azuredynamics.com/products/force-drive/documents/AC55_DMOC445ProductSheet.pdf) for the AC55? The max rpm is listed at 8000rpm, but at 400A/312v, the system torque and power peaks at 2000rpm and is producing significantly less power at 8000rpm (like, 10kW).

If you geared for 150mph at 8000 rpm, you certainly wouldn't see anywhere near that, because it takes a hell of a lot more than 10kW to hit 150mph.

The way I read it, this motor's useful range really does mimic a loping, pushrod V8. All torque and power down low and never meant to go above 6000 rpm. And if you can gear for 55-70mph between 3000 and 4000 rpm, even better. I think direct drive 4:1 on 26" is probably pretty perfect. That puts max HP and torque around 40mph, right where you need it. Go with a higher ratio or taller tires if you want to push the peak into a faster region.

I, too, am thinking about this system for a Series Land Rover conversion, but have been wary of the UMOC controller, but I'm curious what EVComponents' experience has been with it?

That's just my take... All from the bench of course.


----------



## samborambo (Aug 27, 2008)

Overlander23 said:


> Umm, I may be reading this wrong... but has anyone seen AD's performance curves (http://www.azuredynamics.com/products/force-drive/documents/AC55_DMOC445ProductSheet.pdf) for the AC55? The max rpm is listed at 8000rpm, but at 400A/312v, the system torque and power peaks at 2000rpm and is producing significantly less power at 8000rpm (like, 10kW).


This is called "Field Weakening" and is the result of the RMS voltage supplied to the motor not increasing past the 2000RPM base speed. Its a limitation of controller and battery voltage, not so much motor (as long as insulation can take the higher voltage).

Power should be close to constant from the base speed up to max speed. If power is constant, by definition, torque tails off at the same rate as the speed increases.



> If you geared for 150mph at 8000 rpm, you certainly wouldn't see anywhere near that, because it takes a hell of a lot more than 10kW to hit 150mph.
> 
> The way I read it, this motor's useful range really does mimic a loping, pushrod V8. All torque and power down low and never meant to go above 6000 rpm. And if you can gear for 55-70mph between 3000 and 4000 rpm, even better. I think direct drive 4:1 on 26" is probably pretty perfect. That puts max HP and torque around 40mph, right where you need it. Go with a higher ratio or taller tires if you want to push the peak into a faster region.


Apples and oranges. It doesn't mimic any combustion engine. It is simply not possible to use a combustion engine without multiple gear ratios. Unless you've crunched the numbers, don't just think "that'll do". Fixed ratio drivetrains need to be modeled correctly. 



> I, too, am thinking about this system for a Series Land Rover conversion, but have been wary of the UMOC controller, but I'm curious what EVComponents' experience has been with it?
> 
> That's just my take... All from the bench of course.


----------



## etischer (Jun 16, 2008)

Compared to other AC (and DC) motors, the power drops off quite quickly with the AC55. Here is a graph I put together comparing mfg data of different motors. 









In theory the constant horsepower range should be constant, but by 3500 rpm the power is roughly half what it was at 2000. 

I would definitely use a multi-speed transmission with this motor. I generally drive around only in 2nd gear (which gets me to 75mph), but if I'll be on the freeway for more than 20 miles, it's nice to use 3rd or 4th cause it keeps the tranny quieter and keeps the motor in it's power band for passing. If you decide to use a single speed, I would want to hit 60mph by 4000 rpm. 

I haven't used the AC55, but I think the current stated on the Azure site is 3 phase motor current, not battery current. I don't think you will be pulling 400A @ 312V, cause that would be 125kw. Either that or their hp v rpm graph is very conservative. 

I'm not trying to knock the wind out of your sails, just making sure you are realistic with your expectations, and end up with a well designed ev.


----------



## samborambo (Aug 27, 2008)

etischer said:


> Compared to other AC (and DC) motors, the power drops off quite quickly with the AC55. Here is a graph I put together comparing mfg data of different motors.
> 
> Since the constant horsepower range of the AC55 isn't very constant, I would definitely use a multi-speed transmission with this motor. I generally drive around only in 2nd gear (which gets me to 75mph), but if I'll be on the freeway for more than 20 miles, it's nice to use 3rd or 4th cause it keeps the tranny quieter and keeps the motor in it's power band for passing.


Eric, good effort on the graph but there's just too many variables to compare those motors side by side. 

If the tests conditions were in fact controlled, the AC55 has a steeper gradient, meaning its actually stronger (more torque) than the Siemens motor. The graph show that the AC55 is severely limited by voltage (severe field weakening above 2000RPM). Is the AC55 normally wye? Maybe it could be connected in delta and show a lot more power over the same plot.


----------



## etischer (Jun 16, 2008)

The AC55 has more horsepower than the Siemens up to about 2100 rpm, and so yes it has more torque. I think hp is the number to look at for determining acceleration though. 

The graph shows manufacturers published data for various motors, I did not test these motors myself. 

The majority of AC 4 pole 230v motors are field weakened above 1750 rpm. Running 312v only gets you 220v RMS assuming no voltage sag. You can squeeze a little more out, with higher voltage, but not much. Chances are voltage sag would make that unfeasible. 



samborambo said:


> Eric, good effort on the graph but there's just too many variables to compare those motors side by side.
> 
> If the tests conditions were in fact controlled, the AC55 has a steeper gradient, meaning its actually stronger (more torque) than the Siemens motor. The graph show that the AC55 is severely limited by voltage (severe field weakening above 2000RPM). Is the AC55 normally wye? Maybe it could be connected in delta and show a lot more power over the same plot.


----------



## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

wow guys thanks for all the great research a help here,, I am just soaking it all in.

We bought the car today and it will be delivered Sunday,, it is in pretty awesome shape a great buy at 2400 bucks. Here is a pic I will post more as I start the tear down

Brian


----------



## TheSGC (Nov 15, 2007)

Nice! I hope to see lots of pictures!

My next EV will probably be a light SUV, so a well documented SUV conversion will be awesome!


----------



## MJ Monterey (Aug 20, 2009)

I just noticed a white back that a Kia model or two and the Honda s2000 used Mazda ring and pinion setups....

http://www.turbomagazine.com/tech/0804_turp_kia_sportage_s2000_garage_tech/index.html

May be a way to get 4.88 final drive ratio. Or if you are creative check out putting in a Toyota pickup axle. You can get rations over 5 for them.


----------



## samborambo (Aug 27, 2008)

etischer said:


> The AC55 has more horsepower than the Siemens up to about 2100 rpm, and so yes it has more torque. I think hp is the number to look at for determining acceleration though.
> 
> The graph shows manufacturers published data for various motors, I did not test these motors myself.
> 
> The majority of AC 4 pole 230v motors are field weakened above 1750 rpm. Running 312v only gets you 220v RMS assuming no voltage sag. You can squeeze a little more out, with higher voltage, but not much. Chances are voltage sag would make that unfeasible.


More voltage past the base speed of any induction motor is going to see significant improvement in power. Its a limitation of the power source, not the motor.

Eric, could you share some of your AC motor data and info on the AC Motor Selection wiki page? There's lots of people here curious about AC drives.


----------



## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

MJ Monterey said:


> I just noticed a white back that a Kia model or two and the Honda s2000 used Mazda ring and pinion setups....
> 
> http://www.turbomagazine.com/tech/0804_turp_kia_sportage_s2000_garage_tech/index.html
> 
> May be a way to get 4.88 final drive ratio. Or if you are creative check out putting in a Toyota pickup axle. You can get rations over 5 for them.


from the research I have done the gears are 4.666666:1 I will check it of course but mt new target ratio is 5.5:1. That should give me good bottom and and keep the rpms near the sweet spot of the motor. on mounting the motor directly on top of the rear end,, That should be interesting huh??? This also keep the 236 pound beohemouth weight out of the car too which will be great. Hopefull get all the cells under the hood. That would be nice too.

Brian


----------



## samborambo (Aug 27, 2008)

rctous said:


> from the research I have done the gears are 4.666666:1 I will check it of course but mt new target ratio is 5.5:1. That should give me good bottom and and keep the rpms near the sweet spot of the motor. on mounting the motor directly on top of the rear end,, That should be interesting huh??? This also keep the 236 pound beohemouth weight out of the car too which will be great. Hopefull get all the cells under the hood. That would be nice too.
> 
> Brian


Brian, if you go with the AC55, as etischer showed in the graph, the motor power will peak at 2000RPM or 18mph at 312V. Look at the tail-off after the peak - no top end power. My model for acceleration works on constant power after the base speed. You need a much higher voltage (400V - 450V DC) to get close to constant power above 18mph.


----------



## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

So if indead the rear end ratio is 4.6666 and I want a 5.5:1 I believe I need a 1.785:1 additional reduction??? Did I do the math right?

Brian


----------



## esoneson (Sep 1, 2008)

rctous said:


> So if indead the rear end ratio is 4.6666 and I want a 5.5:1 I believe I need a 1.785:1 additional reduction??? Did I do the math right?
> 
> Brian


A 4.6:1 diff with a 1.785:1 additional reduction will give you a total of 8.2:1.
4.6 times 1.785 equals 8.2

Eric


----------



## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

rctous said:


> So if indead the rear end ratio is 4.6666 and I want a 5.5:1 I believe I need a 1.785:1 additional reduction??? Did I do the math right?
> 
> Brian


Try it this way:

5.5/4.66666 = 1.179:1


----------



## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

Woodsmith said:


> Try it this way:
> 
> 5.5/4.66666 = 1.179:1


Ya thats what I thought I did but you are right

b


----------



## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

I will be needing your guys expert help for the spedo and the tach whae that time comes

I may rip the tranny apart to pull the sensor out for the speedo and perhaps the same for the tach,, this will be my biggest hurdle I think.

Brian


----------



## samborambo (Aug 27, 2008)

rctous said:


> I will be needing your guys expert help for the spedo and the tach whae that time comes
> 
> I may rip the tranny apart to pull the sensor out for the speedo and perhaps the same for the tach,, this will be my biggest hurdle I think.
> 
> Brian


Whichever AC drive you go with should be able to give you a tach output and scaling factor. There's no point in connecting the tach counter on the dash as its proportional to speed in a single gear drivetrain.


----------



## MJ Monterey (Aug 20, 2009)

rctous said:


> from the research I have done the gears are 4.666666:1 I will check it of course but mt new target ratio is 5.5:1. That should give me good bottom and and keep the rpms near the sweet spot of the motor. on mounting the motor directly on top of the rear end,, That should be interesting huh??? This also keep the 236 pound beohemouth weight out of the car too which will be great. Hopefull get all the cells under the hood. That would be nice too.
> 
> Brian


Are you sure you want an additional 200+ pounds of unsprung weight? That will degrade the ride quality significantly. Is there physical space above the axle to mount that beast and have appropriate suspension movement (without cutting the rear floor)?

If you have a trans tunnel please consider mounting it near your feet with the gear reduction driving a drive shaft.


----------



## dtbaker (Jan 5, 2008)

MJ Monterey said:


> Are you sure you want an additional 200+ pounds of unsprung weight? That will degrade the ride quality significantly. Is there physical space above the axle to mount that beast and have appropriate suspension movement (without cutting the rear floor)?
> 
> If you have a trans tunnel please consider mounting it near your feet with the gear reduction driving a drive shaft.


I am jumping in late... missed what kind of vehicle this is. unsprung only if it is live rear axle, not independent arms, right....

d


----------



## Overlander23 (Jun 15, 2009)

Looks like a Kia Sorento, which would have a live axle rear-end.


----------



## dtbaker (Jan 5, 2008)

Overlander23 said:


> Looks like a Kia Sorento, which would have a live axle rear-end.


aha...
that makes a pretty strong case for retaining the transmission I'd say....

d


----------



## MJ Monterey (Aug 20, 2009)

Thread start says direct drive. 

I am just pointing out that the motor with the gear reduction may be able to be placed in the old trans location. Which will help preserve ride quality.


----------



## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

if all the weight is on the rear end how does that degrade the quality of the ride?
I would think it would be an improvement? The rear end never leaves the ground, well hardly never. I would think it would be exceptionnally smooth. I am often wrong but curious.

Brian


----------



## MJ Monterey (Aug 20, 2009)

At slow speeds maybe. At road speeds the inertia of the heavy axle will not gently follow vertical changes in the road surface. Go over a sudden dip and the axle will leave the ground and then jar the car when it reconnects (think pot hole). With a bump the body will receive more vertical momentum transfer. And then try to leave the ground on the down hill of the bump.

Think about the change in ride quality between an older live axle sedan and a newer independent sedan. There is a reason the auto manufacturers have been going to independent suspension, lower unsprung weight gives better ride quality, unless you have a very heavy body (think 50s and 60s Cadillac and Lincoln). 

Toyota went to independent front suspension on the 4x4s in the mid eighties because of the marketability of the smoother ride of the independent suspension.


----------



## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

yes i understand it now,,, I have been thinking about it for a couple days,,, and like always you guys are right. That's why I throw these thoughts out there. Thanks men!!!! They will not always be good thoughts though!!!!


Brian


----------



## MJ Monterey (Aug 20, 2009)

rctous said:


> yes i understand it now,,, I have been thinking about it for a couple days,,, and like always you guys are right. That's why I throw these thoughts out there. Thanks men!!!! They will not always be good thoughts though!!!!
> 
> 
> Brian


Thinking about your project brought this back to the front of my brain. I started thinking about using the quick change gears for a gear reduction. Now they make the centers set up for IRS!

What I am now thinking about for a differential
http://www.1speedway.com/irs_quickchange.htm#stockcar

Just dreaming till I get out of debt....

Oh and keep thinking, asking questions and doing. That's why I am participating in this discussion. You folks are doers not a bunch of posers and E-thugs.


----------



## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Just thought I'd point out that the gear reduction unit made for the AC24 will not work with the AC55.


----------



## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

well if indeed the factory gear ratio on this Sorento is 4.66:1 that is no reallt far out from working well. It does utilize the max torque range of the motor,, that would sure kee it simple. The Sorento will be here in about 2 hous so pics of the project coming soon!!!!!

Brian


----------



## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

The Kia has arrived here some pics of the car. More coming soon. Don't really feel like yanking the motor today mabey tomorrow

Brian


----------



## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

its is very dirty but in very great condition. One woman owned from brand new. 111,000 miles on it. 

Brian


----------



## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

Well got a bit of a start today at yanking out the engine. Spent a couple hours and left off with the tranny bolts at the rear of the engine,, they will be a bugger, no leverage and no room, so I took ak break to think about it and play with the kids ( and my new PS3) Any way will report more as time goes on.
I think I will yank of the exhaust manifolds to get more room to work ya ya thats it.

And if your thinking pull everything out at once, I do not think this is an option with what I have availiable to work with.

Brian


----------



## dudette (Jul 17, 2008)

Good to see ya back Brian, missed ya
Good Luck with this build.
dudette


----------



## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

What a pain this motor is to get out , I mean that litterally as my hands feel like hamburger. Spent 4 more hours getting the motor bolts out at the transmission and you know what they say "there is always one of them" and sure enough there was. It was a bolt that I could see easily and had access to it with with a ratchet but would up stripping the head. This forced me to remove the front dif, axles etc so I could get to the head of that bolt and cut it off,, as I said a pain. Any way 6 hours into it so far and the motor should be ready to pull out tomorrow, this part sucks on a conversion.

Brian


----------



## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

dudette said:


> Good to see ya back Brian, missed ya
> Good Luck with this build.
> dudette


Thanks Mom!!!!!!!!!!!!


----------



## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

Well here is my charging BMS system I have decided to go with. I will be using 10 of these chargers. 

http://www.fmadirect.com/new_applications/10s_charger.htm

it will give me a 7 amp charge. Every cell will be perfectly balanced every time. Each charger will do 10 cells. The charger will also tell me the IR of every individual cell and will never allow a cell to get above 3.65 vdc. I have been using these chargers since thier release a couple years ago, in fact I was chosen to be one of the initial Beta testers for this charger. Since I am using 10 of them they all need to be isolated from each other as well I need 10 power supplies to power them all up. So this is the power supply that I have chosen as well. This will be a very solid , reliable system for charging. On the discharge end of it I will program the controller for the low voltage cut out. It was hard to choose but 365 vdc chargers are very expensive and they offer no balancing,, voltage dissapating devices make no sence to me either not at 11.95+ each , when ya need 100 of them thats very expensive and they are very limited into what they can actually do. And they waste energy, and some even catch fire. I suppose they would be better than nothing.

The power supplies will take any voltage (AC) up to about 480 so that is also a bonus. very light weight for the whole system as well.

Brian


----------



## nsxguy7 (Aug 25, 2009)

How about a Ford Fairmont? Its light, RWD, Four doors, and Mustang Gt stuff bolts right up...like the excellent 8.8 LSD rear end and beefier front suspension. Lots of room (big trunk!) too....you can probably score a decent one for $500...


----------



## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

sure but we already have a vehicle... Did ya miss that?

Brian


----------



## nsxguy7 (Aug 25, 2009)

Yes if i am recommending something, I guess I did, didnt I?...so sorry to waste your precious time...


----------



## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

nsxguy7 said:


> Yes if i am recommending something, I guess I did, didnt I?...so sorry to waste your precious time...


dude its not like that at all I am happy to listen to all the advice or help I can get,, not a waste of my time at all. I am sure it would be a great car to convert just not for me right now as I have one already. Wow I didn't realize my reply to your comment was an a#@#@hole remark. It was not intended to be.

Brian


----------



## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Interesting SPAM, and as I've already pointed out the AT1200 won't work with the AC55, in case anyone is confused.


----------



## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

Well after being gone for the week end I got back at the removal today. Got it all out minus a few hanging brackets and odd stuff. Tranny and transfer case slid out the bottom very nicely. You will see in the next post that I took the small splined plate off the transmission that was hooked up to the drive shaft.. I know the ACC 55 motor has a splined shaft,,,, could you imagine if it actually was the same spline???? WOW what a treat that would be. Any way looks like I will mount the motor under the car about where the shifter is, I have a coupel cross members to make a very nice mount for this to work but I need to see the motor. Motor is on a truck and will be here thursday. So far still not real exciting but it allows me to take a long look at things as well to do some planning. This is going to be a very nice conversion, very nice car too.

brian


----------



## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

here is the piece I took off the tranny hoping it may slide right on to the motor,, If not I will make it work ( parts of it any way) Finally ready to almost start moving forward and begin the conversion.

Brian


----------



## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

here is the huge cavity I have planned for the motor to live. It will be awkward but definately looks promising. It is hard to reall see the amount of room that is there but surley there is room for the motor!!

Brian


----------



## MJ Monterey (Aug 20, 2009)

Are you going to be able to build motor mounts off of the trans x-member and that support by the u-joint?


----------



## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

MJ Monterey said:


> Are you going to be able to build motor mounts off of the trans x-member and that support by the u-joint?



yes that is the plan there are actually 2 cross members there to be used certainly very very strong.


Brian


----------



## MJ Monterey (Aug 20, 2009)

That is great. Are you figuring on rubber mounting the motor to minimize noise?

Is that a 4 wheel drive transfer case on the transmission?


----------



## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

There won't be much noise with an electric motor but you'd want to mount the motor the same way the transfer case is so they move together and are isolated from shock loads. I would assume the t-case is rubber mounted.


----------



## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

JRP3 said:


> There won't be much noise with an electric motor but you'd want to mount the motor the same way the transfer case is so they move together and are isolated from shock loads. I would assume the t-case is rubber mounted.


yes it will be rubber mounted to a three point mount, I will use the original 6 cylinder motor mounts for the side two mounts and come up with a third mount. Should be pretty slick I figure.

brian


----------



## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

MJ Monterey said:


> That is great. Are you figuring on rubber mounting the motor to minimize noise?
> 
> Is that a 4 wheel drive transfer case on the transmission?


yes it is 4 WD transfer case.


----------



## RE Farmer (Aug 8, 2009)

rctous said:


> Well here is my charging BMS system I have decided to go with. I will be using 10 of these chargers.
> 
> http://www.fmadirect.com/new_applications/10s_charger.htm
> 
> ...


That's an interesting charger. I may want to go that way for my setup of 30-35 100Ah LFP cells. I looked at the site above; how does it connect to the individual cells of a pack?


----------



## MJ Monterey (Aug 20, 2009)

Are you keeping the 4wd or dropping out the front drive line to save weight?


----------



## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

MJ Monterey said:


> Are you keeping the 4wd or dropping out the front drive line to save weight?


It will only be 2 wd rear wheel drive if we were using bigger AH batteries I may have considered keeping 4 wd,,,,,,,,,,,,,but 

Brian


----------



## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

RE Farmer said:


> That's an interesting charger. I may want to go that way for my setup of 30-35 100Ah LFP cells. I looked at the site above; how does it connect to the individual cells of a pack?


Ya it is probably the best RC Charger on the market period. Here is the wiring
http://www.fmadirect.com/support_docs/item_1265.pdf

you can charge only through these tap wires if you choose to but you are limited the 3-4 amps max charge. You certainly would not put 10 amps through the 22 awg wire. The tap wire act more as sensing wires for the cpu in the charger and does not let cells overcharge,,,,,,,,,period!. For high current charging a larger 14 awg or so wire is needed on the + and - of the 10 cells in series. Not all the cells but the first and last one. Son in a 10 S LiFE PO4 pack it is 32 vdc nominal so the larger wires will plug into the charger at the - 32vdc and the + 32vdc,,, 10 cells in series require 11 points of contact. wow Imay have just confused you I hope I did not. Any other questions ask and I will ret to explain it better for you.

Brian


----------



## EV-Eric (Jun 21, 2009)

rctous said:


> Well here is my charging BMS system I have decided to go with. I will be using 10 of these chargers.


 
BMS for charging, what are your plans for BMS during regenerative braking or individual cell voltage drops while driving?


----------



## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

EV-Eric said:


> BMS for charging, what are your plans for BMS during regenerative braking or individual cell voltage drops while driving?


no plan,,,,,, I am mostly concerned about the high end of the voltages not the lower end. we will be able to monitor all cells and we can always see the lowest ones at charge. With the use of high quality matched cells they should all remain pretty consistant through their discharge cycle. If one or two do not then they are "bad cells" and will need to be replaced. With all the lipo's that we do rarely do we have a cell go well below the others that are in that pack. We will also be using a low voltage cut off that is programmed into the controller so we will know when the entire pack is low. Also these chargers will let us know the IR of every cell every time we charge,, with this info we will be aware of "failing" cells well before it ever fails.

Also for re gen braking I highley doubt it will ever be to the point of overcharging, unless I am going down a steep mountain for an hour or so.

Brian


----------



## etischer (Jun 16, 2008)

You will need to program the controller so it will not over charge your batteries, BMS is not able to handle the current. My controller is capable of 100A regen, this will easily over voltage your batteries in a few milliseconds, especially when the pack is completely charged. 



rctous said:


> Also for re gen braking I highley doubt it will ever be to the point of overcharging, unless I am going down a steep mountain for an hour or so.
> 
> Brian


----------



## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

etischer said:


> You will need to program the controller so it will not over charge your batteries, BMS is not able to handle the current. My controller is capable of 100A regen, this will easily over voltage your batteries in a few milliseconds, especially when the pack is completely charged.


sounds easy enough to do hope fully the controller thinks so as well.

Sitting here waiting for the motor and controller to arrive, they said between 12-2 and here it is 2:34,, Oh well patience. I will post pics of it ass soon as it arrives.

Brian


----------



## samborambo (Aug 27, 2008)

etischer said:


> You will need to program the controller so it will not over charge your batteries, BMS is not able to handle the current. My controller is capable of 100A regen, this will easily over voltage your batteries in a few milliseconds, especially when the pack is completely charged.


Or you could make a dynamic brake resistor+chopper. The chopper controller could be as simple as a comparator activating above a threshold voltage with some hysteresis.

I bought a high gain triple darlington BJT 200A boost module a few weeks ago in case I decide to do this.

Sam.


----------



## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

samborambo said:


> Or you could make a dynamic brake resistor+chopper. The chopper controller could be as simple as a comparator activating above a threshold voltage with some hysteresis.
> 
> I bought a high gain triple darlington BJT 200A boost module a few weeks ago in case I decide to do this.
> 
> Sam.


 
^ thats something that will have to be addressed sooner or later as regen motors become more available. If you start out from home with a full charge and happend to be on a hill, then regen can be a problem. We know to avoid that and can plan around it, but for some one that might not be fully aware of how EVs operate, this would be a good safety feature to have.

Looks like there's no stopping you, Brian. Cool that your mom chimed it too.


----------



## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

Well the motor just arrived,,, HOLY S#$#%$ I need more car for this beast. I dont think this motor will ever ever break a sweat. This is one serious motor. All looks in great shape controller looks great as well. Now to get that bad boy in the vehicle (somehow)
I did strip out the fuel line and all the other crap I do not need, time for its power wash then start putting things in instead of taking things out, This is going to be fun!!!!!!! I can only imagine the power this car will have direct drive and everything. Heck the motor already has a U Joint attached to it,, Thats a huge bonus alone right there!!!!!

Keep yas posted

Brian


----------



## MJ Monterey (Aug 20, 2009)

Cool bonus on the U-joint yoke. 

Is it bolted to a flange?


----------



## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

MJ Monterey said:


> Cool bonus on the U-joint yoke.
> 
> Is it bolted to a flange?


ya well after looking its not just a bolt together situation. Yes it is bolted to a flang and it will not be too tough to adapt but a simple bolt on it will not be. No biggy just having the adaptor for the spline is a huge bonus. heck just a 2" coupler is 52 bucks + feight so I at least saved all that

Brian


----------



## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

Just saw someone gave me 4 stars,, I am honored so far as I haven't done much yet so THANKS!!! I will try to work my way into 5 stars 
as this build goes on. I assure you all it will be worth keeping an eye on!!!!

I am excited to move on. Batteries were ordered yesterday and should be here in 4-6 weeks.

Brian


----------



## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Why don't you think you can use the yoke?


----------



## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

JRP3 said:


> Why don't you think you can use the yoke?


I would prefer to put the piece I took off the tranny and get it on there instead of just this yoke. I have noy looked to see if the U joint is the same heck it may be. This is the piece I would like to get on instead.

Brian


----------



## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

If the splines from the trans part don't match up and the U-joints aren't the same another possibility may be a combination U-joint where one cross matches the trans yoke and the other matches the motor yoke.
I've used such to mount a Chevy 14 bolt 3/4 ton axle in a 1/2 ton truck.


----------



## MJ Monterey (Aug 20, 2009)

A good parts person may be able to find an U joint that will fit the drive shaft and the motor side.

Do you have a lathe? The adapter from flange to flange should be easy if you do.


----------



## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

MJ Monterey said:


> A good parts person may be able to find an U joint that will fit the drive shaft and the motor side.
> 
> Do you have a lathe? The adapter from flange to flange should be easy if you do.


yes I do have a lathe and yes that was my plan, I will cut off the spline section so it look like a big flat washer and redrill the 4 bolt holes. Really not to much work.

Brian


----------



## Jimdear2 (Oct 12, 2008)

rctous said:


> I would prefer to put the piece I took off the tranny and get it on there instead of just this yoke. I have noy looked to see if the U joint is the same heck it may be. This is the piece I would like to get on instead.
> 
> Brian


 
Check with outfits like Drive Train Specalists or Moser axles or other axle, driveshaft, drivetrain custom shops. They carry an extensive stock of adapter Ujoints


----------



## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

Jimdear2 said:


> Check with outfits like Drive Train Specalists or Moser axles or other axle, driveshaft, drivetrain custom shops. They carry an extensive stock of adapter Ujoints


you don't like my idea do ya Jim??? Probably takes less than an hour and cost zero. I do see what your saying though. If I keep it this way at least if I need a new u joint is is standard and easy to get as well.


Brian


----------



## MJ Monterey (Aug 20, 2009)

Your idea is great. Cut one face, do one bore to keep axial alignment of drive shaft. and four holes! 

Just to make sure you have the bases covered, does the drive shaft have a slip joint in it for length changes during axle movement?


----------



## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

MJ Monterey said:


> Your idea is great. Cut one face, do one bore to keep axial alignment of drive shaft. and four holes!
> 
> Just to make sure you have the bases covered, does the drive shaft have a slip joint in it for length changes during axle movement?


yes it does have the slip joint for movement

Brian


----------



## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

just went out and did it.( made the new motor coupler) Need to get some hard 3/8" bolts and nuts,, had to cut the ones off. Took about an hour.

Brian


----------



## MJ Monterey (Aug 20, 2009)

Not meaning to be pushy but....... (with humor)

So will you have the motor mounts figured out by morning?

12volt run by Monday?


----------



## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

MJ Monterey said:


> Not meaning to be pushy but....... (with humor)
> 
> So will you have the motor mounts figured out by morning?
> 
> 12volt run by Monday?


I have a couple ideas for the mount and I need to get metal from metal by the foot tomorrow by noon if I plan to get it in this week end. Not sure if this thing would work with the standard 12 vdc battery. I doubt it will. It will no be tested till pretty much all the batteries are in.

Brian


----------



## EVComponents (Apr 20, 2009)

rctous said:


> This one promisses to me much more exciting for us all I hope. I am going to use the Solectria AC55 Motor and Inverter/Controller from EV Components
> 
> http://www.evcomponents.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=AC55


Hi Brian,
I am glad you like it so far.
Just so everyone is aware, these were all purchased in a bankruptcy sale that we found. We started with 30. We only have 19 more of these and then they are all gone at this price. So this is really a limited time offer. When they are gone, they are gone.

Most of them were never used, they just sat on the pallets in a warehouse. The most that any were used is 800 miles.

Rich Rudman at Manzanita Micro has one running in his shop. It practically walked across the floor when it throttled up.


----------



## pariah (Oct 10, 2008)

A thought about gear ratios. I don't know if you intend to keep this a four wheel drive or not, but if you swap a Ford 9" rearend into your vehicle http://www.markwilliams.com/masterline.aspx has ratios up to 6.5:1. Just thought I'd throw this into the mess er I mean mix.


----------



## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

pariah said:


> A thought about gear ratios. I don't know if you intend to keep this a four wheel drive or not, but if you swap a Ford 9" rearend into your vehicle http://www.markwilliams.com/masterline.aspx has ratios up to 6.5:1. Just thought I'd throw this into the mess er I mean mix.



making it direct drive 2 wheel rear drive. The stock ratio is 4.66:1 at 2000 rpm (max torque range of the motor) speed is calculated to be 37 mph,, which is probably the speed most used.



Brian


----------



## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

EVComponents said:


> Hi Brian,
> I am glad you like it so far.
> Just so everyone is aware, these were all purchased in a bankruptcy sale that we found. We started with 30. We only have 19 more of these and then they are all gone at this price. So this is really a limited time offer. When they are gone, they are gone.
> 
> ...



Well thanks for chiming in glad to see your keeping an eye on this,, this motor is going to be just awesome,, these motors were desighned around runninf 5000- 11,000 pound busses so I can't imagine a 3500 pound car being much of a challenge for it. 

Again thanks guys!!!!!!!

brian


----------



## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

well today was power wash day and get er up in the air to its new position for awhile. It cleaned up nicely and went in the garage much easier this time with just me and the wife pushing it. It sure lost some weight,, I would have to guess 1200-1500 pounds lighter. Any way cleaned the shop then went to my favorite store "Metal by the Foot" they have it all. I picked up some "U" channel and angle iron,, now just to figure out how to get it all in the right place. Still figuring out how me alone will bench press this motor into place. Any way this is a mid day up date.

More to come later tonight (if I get anything actually done)

Brian


----------



## ClintK (Apr 27, 2008)

EVComponents said:


> Just so everyone is aware, these were all purchased in a bankruptcy sale that we found. We started with 30. We only have 19 more of these and then they are all gone at this price. So this is really a limited time offer. When they are gone, they are gone.


No more advertising them - I need to buy one or two before you run out! 

Brian, I'm following your thread close as I'll be doing the exact same thing for my sister's car. Good luck and keep the details coming!


----------



## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

Well here is the jist of the mount. I have 1/2 done as you can see. I figured the factory engine mounts will be sufficient and I will incorporate the transmission mount as well. This is going to be a 3 point mount, the tranny mount will cover alot of area though so it should work out well . More to come its still early and I JIST need to git er done!!!

Brian


----------



## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

ClintK said:


> No more advertising them - I need to buy one or two before you run out!
> 
> Brian, I'm following your thread close as I'll be doing the exact same thing for my sister's car. Good luck and keep the details coming!


updating often

As for the motor it is all in great shape for being used and at least this way we know they work,, I am sure this motor has at least another million or so miles left in her!!!!!!!

Brian


----------



## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

well here is one mount in its temp position. Also the drive shaft will need to be shortened by a couple inches,,, the motor has to go where it has to go I cannot move it further forward. Not a huge deal there are many who do that sort of thing,, and balance it as well.

B


----------



## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

ok calling it a day, a pretty good day too. just need to finish up the rear mount drill a couple holes then in she goes. Hopefull a couple hours tomorrow will do it. This car actuall looks like it was designed for this motor to go there!!!!!!! Got to like that. But since test fitting isn't much of an option it needs to be right the first time. (we will see about that)

Of course the two motor mounts are different length and I have washers temporarily under the short one to make it longer, I need to get large fender washers or build a couple to get about 3/8". Thats why they look really un level in the pics.

Brian


----------



## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

That motor is looking so mean.

Is it ok to have motor envy!


----------



## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

Is it ok to have motor envy![/QUOTE]

of course it is!!!!!!!! I just wished it was mine. This is a vehicle that I would love to have of my own......

Brian


----------



## KCEV (Aug 12, 2008)

rctous said:


> Is it ok to have motor envy!


of course it is!!!!!!!! I just wished it was mine. This is a vehicle that I would love to have of my own......

Brian[/QUOTE]

*I thought I've died and gone to (EV) heaven!!*

After stopping at Brian's, I went home last evening telling myself "I want to own THAT kind of EV". What a great mixture of car, motor, controller and artist. Despite my distracting Brian with a cup of coffee at the nearby Starbucks, that man is tackling this conversion with fury; if it weren't for not having all the parts, I think he could have it ready this weekend.

The monstrous motor dwarfs my Warp 9 and Warp Impulse; it is a big mama of a motor. The space reserved for it is a cavity in the Kia's belly, placed just in the right place. The suspension is exactly what Dr.Brian required and at the end of the day, this conversion will definitely put him on the national EV map.

After finishing this note, I'm going back to sleep, since I plan to wake up early and help Brian, even if just to bring him coffee and donuts.


----------



## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

After finishing this note, I'm going back to sleep, since I plan to wake up early and help Brian, even if just to bring him coffee and donuts.

[/FONT][/QUOTE]

OK ED I am waiting

B


----------



## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

Mount is all done minus a few holes and a paint job, heck the paint dryings gonna slow me down, Oh well it will give me the chance to do the coupler and go to the hardware store and get some bolts etc. Still hoping to get this puppy in today,, we will see.

Wheres ED????????

brian


----------



## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

Ok here is is mounts done coupler on,,, now what????????? How the heck to get it where it needs to go?????????? I have a plane see if it works without dying.
by the way WHERES ED??????? And my doughnuts!!!!!!!!!

Brian

I could surley use a second set of hands now I am sure.


----------



## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

You don't have a floor jack to jack the motor up into place?


----------



## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

JRP3 said:


> You don't have a floor jack to jack the motor up into place?


yes I have a floor jack but it does not go up high enough,, see the next post,,,slight tragedy.


----------



## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

well it was all going well , had the wife assisting then it fell about a foot down,, fortunately for the motor I broke its fall,,, The motor won!!!!!!!!!!! Any way after getting cleaned up its shower time and need to rethink this a bit. This sort of took the mood away for now. I will be back at it tomorrow, (if my hands still work)

Broken Brian

ED forget the doughnuts bring bandades instead!!!!!

By the way it hurts worse than it looks


----------



## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Can't imagine how that could have fallen  You could weld up a quick cradle to replace the jack saddle to make a transmission jack. Or maybe put the motor on a plank, jack up and block each end alternating sides until the motor is high enough.


----------



## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

use a ladder have it extend out both sides of the truck and use 2 jacks on each side of the truck, I am sure that will work. Friend is coming by later with jack. Me and the wife will get er in tomorrow.

Brian


----------



## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

JRP3 said:


> Can't imagine how that could have fallen  You could weld up a quick cradle to replace the jack saddle to make a transmission jack. Or maybe put the motor on a plank, jack up and block each end alternating sides until the motor is high enough.


Ya pretty stupid ,,,,,,, live and learn.


----------



## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

By the way guess who showed up?? Ya Ed did no doughnuts no bandaids????? Oh well. LOL


----------



## Tom Thomson (Jun 11, 2008)

Rctous
How do you plan to mount the motor to the axle? It had better be stout because the motor will be unsprung and moving with the axle. It won't take much of a bump to put tremendous loads on your mount. You will also be introducing a torque force into the axle which must be resisted by the leaf springs.
tommyt


----------



## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

You should have your hands check out in case of fractures.

I teach Health and Safety at college and I am tutting a bit at the way the jack is set up.

I would use a plank, or ladder, under the motor to lift it with. Make sure it is well strapped to the plank so that it can't move about.
Lift one end at a time until it is in place.


----------



## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

Tom Thomson said:


> Rctous
> How do you plan to mount the motor to the axle? It had better be stout because the motor will be unsprung and moving with the axle. It won't take much of a bump to put tremendous loads on your mount. You will also be introducing a torque force into the axle which must be resisted by the leaf springs.
> tommyt


not mounting it to the axle it will be hooked up to the drive shaft.

Brian


----------



## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

Woodsmith said:


> You should have your hands check out in case of fractures.
> 
> I teach Health and Safety at college and I am tutting a bit at the way the jack is set up.
> 
> ...


Ya the ladder is the plan. We will know tomorrow. Left hand pretty swollen still even after hours of ice. fells ok ish now

Brian


----------



## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

Good luck with it and be careful with those hands! They don't make spares you know, well not good ones.


----------



## KCEV (Aug 12, 2008)

rctous said:


> Ya the ladder is the plan. We will know tomorrow. Left hand pretty swollen still even after hours of ice. fells ok ish now
> 
> Brian


Man, those hands looked like hams. We'll see tomorrow if the ladder idea works. I rather use Brian's plan B: bring the motor down by removing part of the roof and a few other sections.


----------



## KCEV (Aug 12, 2008)

KCEV said:


> Man, those hands looked like hams. We'll see tomorrow if the ladder idea works. I rather use Brian's plan B: bring the motor down by removing part of the roof and a few other sections.


*Bran-
Is this one of your conversions?
Ed*


----------



## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

*SUCCESS Motor is in!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!*

Well success,,,, wasn't sure if I was even going to try today but grabbed a ladder and my wife and with 3 hands it is in. It looks as good as I thought it would, it looks like tis car was designed for this motor,, i mean an inch either direction it would have never fit. Now tighten the nuts REAL tight and move on to the next step. Glad tis is out of the way thats for sure.

Brian

Wow hindsight this was so easy with the ladder and very safe,, still was a bit gunshy laying under there but>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>


----------



## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

Excellent work.

Do you need to do anything about the torque reactions causing the motor to try and rotate on its mounts or do you feel the mounts are resilient enough?


----------



## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

Woodsmith said:


> Excellent work.
> 
> Do you need to do anything about the torque reactions causing the motor to try and rotate on its mounts or do you feel the mounts are resilient enough?


Well I used the factory motor mounts. It was a v 6 motot so I am sure they will be sufficient.
They are very stiff.

Brian


----------



## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Nice, that's using your head.


----------



## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

JRP3 said:


> Nice, that's using your head.


Well he used his hands last time and look what happened to them!


If my motor, when I get one, fits half as well I'd be happy.


----------



## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

Woodsmith said:


> Well he used his hands last time and look what happened to them!
> 
> 
> If my motor, when I get one, fits half as well I'd be happy.


it is what I consider a perfect fit.

B


----------



## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

Would you look at some covers under the car to keep the road muck off the motor and improve underbody air flow?
You could design in some ram air cooling.


----------



## EVComponents (Apr 20, 2009)

rctous said:


> it is what I consider a perfect fit.
> 
> B


Brian,
That is a Kia SUV, correct? What year? 

I might add this thread and the model of your donor car to the product description listing of the AC 55. If it fits this perfect, other people should be aware of that.


----------



## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

EVComponents said:


> Brian,
> That is a Kia SUV, correct? What year?
> 
> I might add this thread and the model of your donor car to the product description listing of the AC 55. If it fits this perfect, other people should be aware of that.


it is a 2002 Kia Sorento,, just need to shorten the drive shaft thats really the only mod to be done!

Brian


----------



## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

Woodsmith said:


> Would you look at some covers under the car to keep the road muck off the motor and improve underbody air flow?
> You could design in some ram air cooling.


not concerned about road muck this motor is well sealed for that,,, a scoop would only increase the amount of muck thrown on the motor. I will use a fan that is on a t stat in front of the motor for cooling,, I doubt this motor will get to hot as it will not be working very hard.

Brian


----------



## KCEV (Aug 12, 2008)

EVComponents said:


> Brian,
> That is a Kia SUV, correct? What year?
> 
> I might add this thread and the model of your donor car to the product description listing of the AC 55. If it fits this perfect, other people should be aware of that.


*Sizing your comment as a businessman, I agree with you. If others do what Brian is doing (and I just visited his garage to admire the perfect motor fit in the car's belly) you should be depleting your inventory in no time. *


----------



## jorhyne (Aug 20, 2008)

Brian,
I am considering using the same charging system you are for a motorcycle conversion...where are you buying your DC power supplies for the chargers from?


----------



## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

jorhyne said:


> Brian,
> I am considering using the same charging system you are for a motorcycle conversion...where are you buying your DC power supplies for the chargers from?



from China, from a supplier of mine
I haven't ordered them yet and can add a few more of them if you want

PM me if your interested

Brian


----------



## KCEV (Aug 12, 2008)

rctous said:


> from China, from a supplier of mine
> I haven't ordered them yet and can add a few more of them if you want
> 
> PM me if your interested
> ...


Hey Brian-
there are two MAEAA (Mid America Electric Auto Association) members who want to stop by and admire your handiwork. One is talking about ordering a conversion from you ...


----------



## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

KCEV said:


> Hey Brian-
> there are two MAEAA (Mid America Electric Auto Association) members who want to stop by and admire your handiwork. One is talking about ordering a conversion from you ...


today is good for me,,, I am winterizing the pool and covering it so I am home all day.. added bonus ,, the shop is clean

B


----------



## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

Was under the car measuring the driveshaft for removal and shortening and looked at the motor from this view so I had to take a shot of it.

Looks like I need to shorten the shaft by 4 1/18",, will make some calls tomorrow to get it done. Looks easy enough to do but the balancing part of it would get me I am sure.

Brian


----------



## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

found a drive shaft place to shorten and balance it. $95.00 + tax of course, this is about what I expected.

brian


----------



## KCEV (Aug 12, 2008)

rctous said:


> found a drive shaft place to shorten and balance it. $95.00 + tax of course, this is about what I expected.
> 
> brian


Bruab-
I'd like to help when you get the dive shaft back from this place; next week?
Ed


----------



## KCEV (Aug 12, 2008)

KCEV said:


> Bruab-
> I'd like to help when you get the dive shaft back from this place; next week?
> Ed


Sorry - this liquid lunches! I meant Brian.


----------



## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

KCEV said:


> Bruab-
> I'd like to help when you get the dive shaft back from this place; next week?
> Ed



Well YA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I can do 4 bolts and you can do the other 4 bolts!!LOL

briauubbb


----------



## KCEV (Aug 12, 2008)

rctous said:


> Well YA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
> 
> I can do 4 bolts and you can do the other 4 bolts!!LOL
> 
> briauubbb


I knew I could find an easy way to claim having worked in this conversion.


----------



## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

Thinking about the AC in the EV,,, any one have any thoughts in just using a compressor from a house hold unit? I can get a DC to AC converter easy enough that will go from 330VDC to 220 VAC. I have looked at other electric ones posted here but of course the companies have yet to return my calls or e-mails. Even what about one from a fridge or a freezer??? just some thoughts???????????

Brian


----------



## MJ Monterey (Aug 20, 2009)

Are you keeping the power steering?

If so I would think that you could run both the AC and PS from that one motor.

On a side note thanks for reminding me why I pay the rent I pay. AC? Winterize the pool? I see the bay and ocean from the back yard. And with that huge 60 degree body of water within sight if you want to cool off open a window!


----------



## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

yes I am keeping power steering as well. But looking at 1 HP motors at 750 ish watts at 12 vdc = like 60 amps my plans are for one dc to dc 55 amp converter sure I can add another in parallel but would like to avoid that. Also looking at he MR2 electric power steering pumps as well. I did get a call but missed it on the dc AC compressors. I sort of think using a 220 vac compressor with a converter may no be too bad. I think it would be pretty efficient?

Brian


----------



## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

rctous said:


> Thinking about the AC in the EV,,, any one have any thoughts in just using a compressor from a house hold unit? I can get a DC to AC converter easy enough that will go from 330VDC to 220 VAC. I have looked at other electric ones posted here but of course the companies have yet to return my calls or e-mails. Even what about one from a fridge or a freezer??? just some thoughts???????????
> 
> Brian


You could include a small ice tray in front of a fan. Drop in a pile of ice cubes or a couple of those plastic ice blocks from the cooler bag before a journey. Instant coolled air.


----------



## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

Woodsmith said:


> You could include a small ice tray in front of a fan. Drop in a pile of ice cubes or a couple of those plastic ice blocks from the cooler bag before a journey. Instant coolled air.


no an option but thanks


----------



## MJ Monterey (Aug 20, 2009)

A cool blast from the past?

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/VINT...ies?hash=item518c926202&_trksid=p4506.c0.m245


----------



## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

MJ Monterey said:


> A cool blast from the past?
> 
> http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/VINT...ies?hash=item518c926202&_trksid=p4506.c0.m245


I guess that may work, I am also toying with the idea to have one of the axles off the front wheels to turn the compressor. ( since I am not using them either of them)Gear it up a bit. While sitting at a light I would think the cool air in the system would still circulate for a minute or so, take off again and it cools again??????? This would be some work but certainly dooable.

Brian


----------



## PatricioIN (Jun 13, 2008)

I was thinking of one of these for a future conversion:

http://www.electricbluemotors.com/coolblue.html

They sell a converter as well, but it's pricey and you could probably source that yourself.


----------



## MJ Monterey (Aug 20, 2009)

O.K. So I see Toyota uses an electric driven compressor but the dealer list is pushing $1000, with a discount price of a tad over $700.

Also the Hybrid boards are all a twitter on how much fuel is wasted at lights running the compressor. Even the new Ford system that belt drives a standard compressor.

Still can't find amperage requirement on the net.....


----------



## KCEV (Aug 12, 2008)

Woodsmith said:


> You could include a small ice tray in front of a fan. Drop in a pile of ice cubes or a couple of those plastic ice blocks from the cooler bag before a journey. Instant coolled air.


This DIY site has an excellent example:

http://www.instructables.com/id/Portable-12V-Air-Conditioner---Cheap-and-easy!/


----------



## EV-Eric (Jun 21, 2009)

rctous said:


> Thinking about the AC in the EV,,, any one have any thoughts in just using a compressor from a house hold unit?


 

How about upgrading to a AC/Heater system....
http://www.ajmadison.com/cgi-bin/ajmadison/AE093B35MB.html

The evaporator coil is considerably larger then the cars and you would also need to recharge the system after installation. With a good microcontroller for temperature control you could manage power usage a have a comfortable ride.


----------



## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

well I guess I could do that and tear out the compressor but if I go that route I want 220 vac,, I am searching for the 330vdc to 220 vac convertor now,, I came across them before now I can't find it.

Brian


----------



## Guest (Sep 11, 2009)

That's a fairly brilliant choice for a donor. I bought my daughter a Khia Sorento when she went off to college and it has just been a superb car. It was about $23K brand new. I love em.

Jack Rickard
http://evtv.me




rctous said:


> it is a 2002 Kia Sorento,, just need to shorten the drive shaft thats really the only mod to be done!
> 
> Brian


----------



## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

jrickard said:


> That's a fairly brilliant choice for a donor. I bought my daughter a Khia Sorento when she went off to college and it has just been a superb car. It was about $23K brand new. I love em.
> 
> Jack Rickard
> http://evtv.me


very very well built car I will say that for sure


----------



## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

so for the ac and power steering do the regular 12 vdc motor and have a seperate 12 volt deep cycle to run that motor. DO not have a means of recharging that battery from the car, have it charge off a seperate charger that activates when the car is plugged in. This battery would supply enough power to run the motor for at least an hour I am sure. Probably use a 90 AH battery.. Your thoughts????????? this way no draw from the car at all

Brian

PS I like this idea


----------



## MJ Monterey (Aug 20, 2009)

With a separate battery and charger I would consider starting the A/C with a timer (or via remote) to pre cool the car from the grid or a photo voltaic panel. I have seen some talk on production cars of running a solar panel just to help with the A/C and cooling load while parked. Basically the PV becomes a range extender for the A/C.....


----------



## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Depends on how much power it takes to spin the A/C compressor. At 12 volts you might need to pull a lot of amperage. If it takes 2hp to run the compressor you'd be continuously pulling over 100 amps.


----------



## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

JRP3 said:


> Depends on how much power it takes to spin the A/C compressor. At 12 volts you might need to pull a lot of amperage. If it takes 2hp to run the compressor you'd be continuously pulling over 100 amps.


even A 100 amps would get me nearly an hour,, remember the range on this will only be about 40 miles,, I doubt that the AC would really be on that long ever. A 20 mile one way trip should not take more than 30 minutes usually. Besides if it stops working it is not going to effect any other systems (it can be turned off) And your right we could leave it plugged in for pre cooling or I could add a switch to the dc to dc convertor to also aid in charging the 12 vdc battery.


Brian

I still like this solution,,, effective and cheap


----------



## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

PS going camping back Sunday


----------



## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Have you found any actual numbers concerning how much hp the A/C compressor actually takes? I've seen a large range, probably different for each compressor, but since I can feel the power drop in my RAV4 when the A/C is running I'd guess it's a good bit more than the 2hp I used in my example. You may be dealing with 5 or more hp which probably wouldn't be possible at 12 volts.


----------



## Guest (Sep 11, 2009)

It's a little pricey, but in the long run I think you spend nearly this amount anyway trying to cobble something together. This is a Sierra Masterflux electric drive AC compressor. We got one that would do between 300 and 400 volts DC and it comes with its own PWM controller. This allows you to adjust the rpm of the compressor, and so the btu output. In this way, you can use the existing air conditioning system in the car, and tune the compressor for optimal performance to avoid a mismatch.

The manufacturer is difficult to deal with. But some guys doing conversions down in Austin are acting as dealers. It took a month or so, but we got one from them. I think it was about $1200. http://www.revoltcustomelectric.com/components-accessories.html

Jack Rickard
http://evtv.me


----------



## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

jrickard said:


> It's a little pricey, but in the long run I think you spend nearly this amount anyway trying to cobble something together. This is a Sierra Masterflux electric drive AC compressor. We got one that would do between 300 and 400 volts DC and it comes with its own PWM controller. This allows you to adjust the rpm of the compressor, and so the btu output. In this way, you can use the existing air conditioning system in the car, and tune the compressor for optimal performance to avoid a mismatch.
> 
> The manufacturer is difficult to deal with. But some guys doing conversions down in Austin are acting as dealers. It took a month or so, but we got one from them. I think it was about $1200. http://www.revoltcustomelectric.com/components-accessories.html
> 
> ...


I was in contact today with people that had a similar unit,, I really do not want to spend that kind of money,, I am looking for a 2.5 HP 24 vdc motor,,, hoping that will suffice my needs, I will use 2 smaller 12 vdc batteries to run it, and charge it only when the car is being charged.

Brian


----------



## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

You might be able to check with the dealer to find out exactly how much power the compressor requires. It would suck to build something that didn't work, or didn't work for very long.


----------



## Overlander23 (Jun 15, 2009)

Out of the box idea, what about a brushless RC plane motor?


This is probably way overkill, but they go down in size/power from there. It's an outrunner so would take some interesting mounting.

http://hobbycity.com/hobbycity/store/uh_viewItem.asp?idProduct=5139


----------



## paker (Jun 20, 2008)

Good lord! That motor must be for the airplane model of Howard Hughes Spruce Goose!


----------



## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

paker said:


> Good lord! That motor must be for the airplane model of Howard Hughes Spruce Goose!


If only we could get them to build motors a little bigger


----------



## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

Overlander23 said:


> Out of the box idea, what about a brushless RC plane motor?
> 
> 
> This is probably way overkill, but they go down in size/power from there. It's an outrunner so would take some interesting mounting.
> ...


I wonder how four or five or six of those would do being geared around a single gear wheel on a gearbox shaft would perform?

Or how about eight of them, two in each wheel hub?


----------



## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

I know alot of people follow this thread so I am posting this here. It is sort of unrelated but you need to know this . 

A123 goes public tomorrow!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

expecting to open at 10-11.50 per share but a bargain I am sure.

call symbol is "AONE"

if possible look into it.

Brian


----------



## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Looks as if that's already being bumped up to $13. This may get an initial "hype" run then fall back down to earth. IPO's can be tricky, I'll probably sit back for this one.


----------



## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

OK finally some movement on the car,, got the driveshaft installed,, looks perfect, length is good,, wound up costing 118.50. Still reasonable I think, heck they even painted it!

Started on the fan shroud for the AC radiator,, need to let it dry overnight then add the sides to it. I will fiberglass it then paint it later. Looks like it will work out for me. Also need to cut the bigger fan out of the stock shroud and modify it for the motor. I will have it on a thermister to turn on and off as necessary,, doubt it will ever turn on but just in case.

Got the vaccuum reservoir ready with 2- 150 vdc pumps wired in series,, should handle 365 vdc and should be pretty quick as well. I will be mounting this in the driver side fender,,, plenty of room up there.

going to try to get the heater in the other fender work on that later.

Here are some pics of some progress for today.

By the way the 10 charger idea is out not gonna do it,,, I have a couple other plans and will let ya know as soon as I do.

Brian


----------



## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

That set up, now the prop is in, looks so 'stock' as if it was always meant to be like that!
Excellent.


----------



## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

Woodsmith said:


> That set up, now the prop is in, looks so 'stock' as if it was always meant to be like that!
> Excellent.


it totally does look stock, here are some pics of the shroud getting closer to getting finished, need to still glass the inside,, do some sanding priming then paint,

Brian


----------



## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

have a final light coat of resin on the AC shroud ,, ready for primer and paint later today. This part turned out extremely strong considering it is built with Gorilla glue!!!! Of course the fiberglass helped. Still light weight and totally waterproof. I will be mounting this in front of the motor at a 10 -15 degree angle. I will add a rock guard to the bottom of it. My whole plan is to keep everything clear from the engine compartment and fill it with all 100 cells. Also planning on mounting the power steering and AC pump above the shroud in the tranny tunnel again to keep the engine bay clear for batteries.

I must once again give KUDO's to the folks at http://www.evcomponents.com unbelievable customer service from them,, great response by e-mail and by telephone,,So often I call ev shops for parts or advice and they make me feel like I am wasting their time not these guys they want to see you succeed . I will be in contact with them even more when the time comes to program the controller and such,, I have a 165 page pdf from them for the instructions on the motor and controller. Still need many parts from them and will be in touch soon.


----------



## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

Here is the assembled brake reservoir,, I have 2 vaccuum motors inside in series (electrically that is) then of course the the exhaust runs out of the tube in parallel. This I am hoping will handle pack voltage of 365 max vdc. It should offer plenty of stopping power for this 3500 pound beast. Needs painted and mounted in the drivers side fender. Pics coming later>>>>

Brian


----------



## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

decided to go a bit more traditional on the AC,, after days / weeks of searching for motors big enough to handle the AC compressor the current draw and the price is crazy. I 've decided to run the compressor off the main motor of the car. I spent a couple hours today taking off the driveshaft and adapters I made to add a pulley for the compressor. That all worked out just fine then I went to line up the compressor and just for grins decided to rest it out,, sure enough the compressor is seized. Took it all apart to discover lots of aluminum shavings inside,,,,, crap!!! SO off to the junkyard to get another one.. Some time this week I will make that journey. This makes the most sence to me and seems to be the most efficient option.

Brian


----------



## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

Shame about the dead compressor, I figure there wasn't a working one with your car?

I tested my AC compressor today with an ac motor. You can see the video here on post 182. I used a 240v 550w motor at 1400 rpm. Even with the slack, non fitting belt and the outlet plugged it ran fine.


----------



## Overlander23 (Jun 15, 2009)

Unless, of course, you aren't moving... Which is a good question... how much road speed will you need to provide enough speed for the compressor to do its job?


----------



## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

I'm not sure, the pulleys are geared to give the compressor about 700rpm at the moment. However, 3 turns of the pulley by hand gets me 10"hg straight off.

I will be setting it up with a reservoir to see what the volume air movement is to see how long it needs to build up vacuum. Maybe just pulling away from stopped will be enough to build vacuum with a small reserviour but I would need a large reserviour to ensure sufficient vacuum for stops on the move.
It is academic at the moment as I don't have a drive motor yet. I would need one with a tailshaft to do this with and it would need to be short enough to fit in the car.

You would have the same issue with the AC switching off when you stop moving. Less of a safety issue but could get uncomfortable when stoped in traffic on a hot day.


----------



## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

the AC system seems to be huge in this Kia and I suspect that the stops for a short period of time will not be too bad, there should be enough cool air still in circulation in the system,, sure a long stop like a train may be a bit uncomfortable,, but the owner is very responsible with usage. I can always add a motor if it doesn't work out but I think it will be fine.

Brian

glad I at least have a plan now,,, it is a 1:1 ratio from the motor to the compressor, which will give me 2000 rpm at the pump at 37 mph.


----------



## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

You can always shift into neutral and rev the motor if need be.


----------



## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

JRP3 said:


> You can always shift into neutral and rev the motor if need be.


well not really this is a direct drive remember???


----------



## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

DOH!   Yeah, that might make it difficult


----------



## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

Well you could try power breaking, but that migh affect your range a little

Lucky me I don't have air conditioning to worry about.....black car and all No power steering either hehe.

Might want to consider cleaning out the AC parts if you know the compressor grenaded. Orifice tube must be replaced and to do it by the book so should the dryer. Any metal debris that get into the new compressor will kill it in short order.


----------



## Mesuge (Mar 6, 2008)

rctous said:


> It cleaned up nicely and went in the garage much easier this time with just me and the wife pushing it. It sure lost some weight,, I would have to guess 1200-1500 pounds lighter.


Brian, interesting project and new home for the Solectria!
I'm wondering did you have workshop manual for the Sorento at hand while yanking the ICE stuff out (or is it available anyway)? They usually have listed some specifications in it such as tranny and motor weights etc. Because I'm a bit sceptical about the upper range estimate of 1500 pounds removed though, as stock it's 2ton car. In that light what do you reckon in terms of post conversion economy? Something like ~350Wh/mi (battery-2-wheel) at <55mph speeds sounds reasonable for SUV?


----------



## MJ Monterey (Aug 20, 2009)

How is the project progressing?


----------



## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

Wow it has been awhile huh?? I haven't been doing too much as I am still acquiring parts. The AC system has been a major hurdle for me but I finally have it mostly roughed in. Needs a few more nuts but basically it is in. Notice the spring tensioners for the pump. The motor will be torquing all the time so the compressor needed a way to react to that torque. The springs should do just fine. Had new AC lines made up proffesionally as my attempts were lets just say "not good" and really messing with the high pressures and risking an explosion or a leak were not options. Cost about 180 bucks for the hose work but worth it. You can see the batteries are in and they look great. I will definately get them all under the hood in this car. Notice the garage is a mess and I am finally getting rid of all the ICE crap on Wednesday. Still looking for an MR2 electric power steering pump (hint hint) any help would be apprieciated. I will be more ON THE BALL here as it is time to get this project done. Still batteling BMS but Dave at www.EVcomponents.com will probably be building me that system. Again these guys are very knowledgable and extremely helpful,, highly recommend them them for any of your EV needs. Enjoy the latest!!!

Brian


----------



## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

MJ Monterey said:


> How is the project progressing?


finnaly getting somewhere. Gonna get er done now!!!


----------



## MJ Monterey (Aug 20, 2009)

Glad to hear you are making progress. I need more coffee, figuring out the AC pump photo took a second. I am still amazed at how well this all fits together.

Just to make sure, that is trans/hydro fluid on the floor and not some other vital red fluid!

Keep up the good work.
Jack


----------



## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

MJ Monterey said:


> Glad to hear you are making progress. I need more coffee, figuring out the AC pump photo took a second. I am still amazed at how well this all fits together.
> 
> Just to make sure, that is trans/hydro fluid on the floor and not some other vital red fluid!
> 
> ...


ya thats the tranny fluid and finnally getting it all out of there Wed, need room to work. Ya the AC pump was pretty interesting but I think it will work out just fine. I want/ need all the room up front for batteries and want to seal off the front end where the radiator was, + there was all that room right there and figured I would take advantage of it. Going to do the heater next hope to put all the components in the passenger side upper fender. I got the brake pumps and reservoir in the drivers side fender. Under hood should be only batteries and controller ( I hope)

Brian


----------



## MJ Monterey (Aug 20, 2009)

What are you using for a source for heat? 

I guess the more broad question is....What are the other viable choices other than ceramic?

If you tap off the controller cooling fluid would that be enough after it warms up?

In my little car I threw the heater away because it weighed too much and then just attached a 12v hair drier to the defroster ducts for cold starts. The exhaust header heated the rest almost too well especially in the summer.

The other day I noticed these at Harbor Freight. May be enough to clear the rear windows and knock the chill off in the back area. (Winter supplemental heat/defog)
http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=96144


----------



## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

MJ Monterey said:


> What are you using for a source for heat?
> 
> I guess the more broad question is....What are the other viable choices other than ceramic?
> 
> ...


I will be using a 3000 watt electric hot water tank element. It will run directly off the 320 volt ( nominal) battery pack. It will be a sealed system with a 5-7 pound presure relief valve and a t stat that will open ( shut off power) at 180 degrees. It worked well in the other cars I have done but i am using a 110vac element in those. I suspect that it will draw around 4000 watts. It will be a heater not a car warmer. I have had no luck with the ceramic heaters and this way I leave the heater core intact and use it still. I have a 12 VDC water pump to circulate the water through the system. I plan to get parts to do this tonight or tomorrow and will take many pics again!!!!

I also have the DC to DC converter I will take a pic and place it in as well. It is a CAscade audio 55 amp 220 vac that will be driven directly from the 320 vdc traction pack. I hope 55 amps is enough. If not I will get another one and parallel it for a total of 110 amps.


----------



## MJ Monterey (Aug 20, 2009)

Are you going to "preheat" while charging. Basically set up a timer to turn on the heater and run it for a few minutes before you would normally use the car?

It would save pack depletion for the initial heat.


----------



## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

Here is my DC to DC converter it will handle up to 400 vdc input ( I hope)

good price too 250 bucks (ish)

Brian


----------



## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

MJ Monterey said:


> Are you going to "preheat" while charging. Basically set up a timer to turn on the heater and run it for a few minutes before you would normally use the car?
> 
> It would save pack depletion for the initial heat.


well its not my car but yes I guess a person sure could,,, I doubt it will be driven to often below 32 degrees though, and believe me this heater system heats up way faster than the stock ICE heater does. Also my customer will probably be parking in a heated garage as well.

to pre heat the car any variety of plug in heaters can be used.


----------



## lajollan (Oct 28, 2009)

rctous said:


> The AC system has been a major hurdle for me but I finally have it mostly roughed in. Needs a few more nuts but basically it is in. Notice the spring tensioners for the pump. The motor will be torquing all the time so the compressor needed a way to react to that torque. The springs should do just fine.
> Brian


 
I have not seen anyone use the Prius compressor. It cycles on and off all the time and if I'm not mistaken, its ~250v DC

The only caution is in the oil, regular AC oil might combust in the Prius compressor, so the whole system needs to be purged.

BTW, my prius is ice cold on the hottest days but the ICE heater SUCKS in Minnesota.


----------



## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

Went to th ehardawre store and got the heater parts and have it pretty much done you can see other than wiring its ready,, worked great up there. I will insulate it all after I check for leaks. Still need to add a "T" so I can "burb p it . 

Brian


----------



## MJ Monterey (Aug 20, 2009)

Nice and clean!

I will keep this concept in the serious consideration pile!


----------



## gdirwin (Apr 7, 2009)

Brian - do you have a link to the fluid heater and DC pump you used? 

You also mentioned you have had bad luck with ceramic heaters - how so?

How fast do you think your fluid heater will heat up (say in comparison to ceramic)?


----------



## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

The heating element looks to be a standard 220 volt home hot water heater element that you can find at any hardware store. Should heat up the small amount of fluid in a vehicle very quickly, a minute or less I would think.


----------



## Jimdear2 (Oct 12, 2008)

Brian,

Here I am again, Mister "look for problems".

Just had a thought about a 4000 watt (WOW ) heating element in that small diameter pipe, even with the water flow from your pump you may still be boiling the water and burning out elements. It's probably not going to be a problem but it wouldn't hurt to be sure. You could always increase the diameter of that pipe with suitable reducers and streets to give more volumn.

I'm supprised that more people haven't caught on to how much easier it makes a build to not have to pull the dash apart to put in a ceramic element in place of the heater core. What you have put togeather is sure a lot cheaper then the commercial hot water units units (true DIY), plus replacement parts are just a hardware store away.


----------



## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

JRP3 said:


> The heating element looks to be a standard 220 volt home hot water heater element that you can find at any hardware store. Should heat up the small amount of fluid in a vehicle very quickly, a minute or less I would think.



Just got it all in (the heater) and testing it and wow its hot in less than a minute and this is only on 220 vac once it sees 360 VDC it will be an instant heater. I imagine the 180 degree t stat will be turning on and off quite a lot..


----------



## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

How is the thermostat wired? 12V to thermostat to relay to heating element?
If it's cycling too fast you might need to add more fluid volume to give you some thermal mass as Jim suggested.


----------



## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

Jimdear2 said:


> Brian,
> 
> Here I am again, Mister "look for problems".
> 
> ...


The water pump I have is super high volume ( of course I cant find the specs right now but when I tested it it shot a good stream out. The problem is it is noisy so I will need to mont it to a rubber mount of some sort. All tested great had the pressure relief valve leaking again. Replaced it with a new one and its fine now, AS for cost I spent about 100 bucks just at the hardware store for pipe fitting hose , clamps, element, etc. Water pump was about 40 bucks, the t stat was like 25 bucks and the PRV was like 6-7 bucks. Need a 60 dollar relay and some other misc relays switches ets. All of those you would need even if you went ceramic system. So the savings is probably not there but the total effectiveness of this system and ease of doing it make it worth every penny. This is an actual heater not a "warmer " like I had with the ceramic method. 

I agree I am not sure why most don,t do this.

AS for the larger pipe, I also have the flow of the water pump coming from the "cool side " of the heater going down the top of the element then it directly hits the TSAT so I can detect the hottest water and turn the element on and off based on that temp reading. If I went the other way I would be getting a cooler reading at the TSAT and possible have water temps in excess of 200 degrees. I think 180 degrees is a perfect temp for the heater.

As for the wiring it does get involved as many things must take place before the element will even turn on. First the blower needs to be turned on and this activates the water pump, but only on heat (not AC) (of course the key needs to be on ign) I will need to add a micro switch to the hot cold button so the pump is on only when the heat is set to max, many heater cores by pass the water from the core when in cool mode. So after that is met a momentary button needs to be pressed to activate the heater element, if the blower is turned off the element shuts off and stays off even if the fan is turned back on the element stays off,, this is good because as you get close to your destination you shut off the fan for a second then turn it back on to continue to circulate the hot water through the system. Any way that takes a few relays diodes etc. I will cover how all that goes together when I get there.

Brian


----------



## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

JRP3 said:


> The heating element looks to be a standard 220 volt home hot water heater element that you can find at any hardware store. Should heat up the small amount of fluid in a vehicle very quickly, a minute or less I would think.


Yes it is ,,, it is the lowest wattage I could find.

Brian


----------



## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

JRP3 said:


> How is the thermostat wired? 12V to thermostat to relay to heating element?
> If it's cycling too fast you might need to add more fluid volume to give you some thermal mass as Jim suggested.


 TSTAT is NC ( I think) doesn't matter) it will be on a standard bosch 12 vdc relay this relay out put will allow a ground to the trigger on the main element relay. If the ground goes away then the main relay sees no ground and shuts itself off(opening the ground). As for cycling to often it operates from 160 degrees to 180 degrees, I think that will be enough variance to work just right.

Brian


----------



## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

JRP3 said:


> How is the thermostat wired? 12V to thermostat to relay to heating element?
> If it's cycling too fast you might need to add more fluid volume to give you some thermal mass as Jim suggested.





gdirwin said:


> Brian - do you have a link to the fluid heater and DC pump you used?
> 
> You also mentioned you have had bad luck with ceramic heaters - how so?
> 
> How fast do you think your fluid heater will heat up (say in comparison to ceramic)?


the heat is nearly immediate less than a minute for sure,, the issues I have had with ceramic is just no heat performance, it works like a warmer not a heater,,,, and the work is ridiculous. One nice thing about ceramic is that they produce like nor heat unless air is blowing over them,, the more aire that passes over it the more wattage they produce. Plus the thought of having a red hot coil of wires inside my dash just doesn't appeal to me very much. With this heated water system there is saftey built in everywhere and worst case very worse case scenerio the element is kind of like a fuse,, if there is no water going around it and it over heats it burns itself out. ( ask me how I know three times).


----------



## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

well this is great news I just ordered my MR 2 power steering pump, in near new condition (25,000 miles) so that is a big deal out of the way. I should be able to get more soon. Let me know if your interested!!!!

Brian


----------



## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

Wow, you weren't kidding when you said you had some long typing today. No wonder you like chatting on the phone once in a while instead.

No powersteering for me. Manual rack from factory and I'll leave it that way this time around. Kinda like the manual steering after driving a land battleship most of the time.


----------



## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

david85 said:


> Wow, you weren't kidding when you said you had some long typing today. No wonder you like chatting on the phone once in a while instead.
> 
> No powersteering for me. Manual rack from factory and I'll leave it that way this time around. Kinda like the manual steering after driving a land battleship most of the time.


Ya the Saturn is pretty easy to steer the way it came with no power steering but the Sorento is a different story big heavy and an older gent that will be the primary driver,,, it needs to steer nicely. Not sure yet but I may add switches to have the pump turn on only when the steering is cranked 5-10 degrees or so off center,, easy enough to do but I do not necessarily want the "jerk reaction" when the pump turns on,, besides it takes a lot of current to start a motor it may be more efficient leaving it run all the time,, when there is no load I am sure there isn't much current required. I will see,, as a worst case I will have a manual ON off switch for it.

Brian


----------



## gdirwin (Apr 7, 2009)

I also just bought a pump from a 2005 MR2 spyder - I plan to have a on/off switch inside the cab somewhere, and to use the VSS signal (speed sensor) input into the pump. The pump would be on at low speeds, but should be off at high speeds.

Found this link:
http://forum.ih8mud.com/40-55-series-tech/206057-electric-power-steering-pump-variable-ps.html


----------



## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

gdirwin said:


> I also just bought a pump from a 2005 MR2 spyder - I plan to have a on/off switch inside the cab somewhere, and to use the VSS signal (speed sensor) input into the pump. The pump would be on at low speeds, but should be off at high speeds.
> 
> Found this link:
> http://forum.ih8mud.com/40-55-series-tech/206057-electric-power-steering-pump-variable-ps.html


I just wonder waht the current consumption actually is though under no load??? And if speeding it up or turning it on and off would actually be worse for current consumption??? And what is the actual net gain??? Then is it worth it?

Brian

Thanks for the link


----------



## dimitri (May 16, 2008)

Second generation or later MR2 pump ( the one with integrated tank and controller, described in my WIKI article ) takes 4-5 Amps at 12V when running idle ( car is not making a turn, which is 99% of the time ), so that is 48-60 Watts of power from your pack, which is like 0.001% of your power usage in EV. That's without VSS signal, which means it will idle all the time, regardless of speed. If you connect VSS then its even less since it will spin down at higher speed. 

So, why bother with a switch? One day you will forget to turn it on or not have time to turn it on when you need to steer hard and quick and.... BANG. Why bother with steering column angle sensors? One day they will fail and ..... BANG. Even when they work, PS will be jerking on and off, creating unpleasant experience for the driver, all to save extra 50 feet of range????


----------



## kittydog42 (Sep 18, 2007)

As mentioned previously, the pumps do not consume much power at idle, so I would just let it run all of the time. I would be cautious about switching the pump on and off with a switch, because you would not want to accidentally switch the pump on under load - you might even blow out the seals if you did that. If the switches are automated, make sure that the pump reacts fast enough to be on before the wheel hits the locks.


----------



## gdirwin (Apr 7, 2009)

I stand corrected - no switch is better...


----------



## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

Finally more to report,, been strugling with the BMS for a while now but finally resolved it today,, we are getting the Elithion BMS system. It looks like a pretty good system and they have been around for awhile too. http://liionbms.com/php/products.php. We ill strat off with a small lap top but may change that out at the end of the year when the touch screen is available. In any event that system and an ELCON charger will do the trick. I managed to get the MR 2 power steering pump installed today fits great cost me a 1/2" drill as I burned it up drilling the 4 " hole through like 3 different layers of steel,, heck that took an hour alone. Oh well wanted a new drill any way. The brackets still need trimmed out and painted but the basic idea is done. Turns out the high pressure line is like the exact right length so I do not need to get a new one made. The low pressure line is simple and low pressure so it is easy. Took me a bit to figure out the wiring to turn it on and trigger it but that is also done,,, I am not using the computer controller or any of that for the power steering rather an on off switch perhaps add pin switches to the rack, we will see. Any way excited for the BMS that is the real last hurdle!!!!!! YEEEE HAAAWWWWW

Brian


----------



## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

Well making progress, I got the power steering pump up and running, of course the fitting I needed that was the flared fitting for the pump was not included,, after buying several fittings that should have worked none did, so I made one and it works like a charm. Any way got the two battery trays roughed in today well frames built now need to mount them in the car. It will work well I will have 2 banks of 50 cells, one stacked on top of the other, right where the ICE was. Looks like there is plenty of room for bats controller and charger all nicely tucked in under the hood.

The power steering pump I am going to leave on all the time (with a switch that the driver can turn on and off if he chooses too. Heck in idle mode it does not draw much current at all. I will have a cool little battery to help run the power steering pump for the 80 amp surges, more on that later, but since it is only a 55 amp DC tp DC I need some extra OOMPH at certail periods. This battery will also back up the PC and the memory for the radio as well, but other than that it will be isolated from the 12 VDC car system.

More to come I can see some light at the end of the tunnel,, but it pretty dim still but I see it!!!!!!

Brian


----------



## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

pics of kinda sorta the battery rack in the car the placement is pretty much where it will go.This is going to make for a tight fit for the controller that I want on the firwall,, looks like mabey an inch,,, i will lower the top rack as much as possible then hopefully gain what I need. Not to sure the size of the battery analyzers that go on each cell they look small but I need the sets of cells as close as possible.

Brian


----------



## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

A stacker pack. Now that is ambitious. Was only a matter of time before some one tried it, might as well be you.

Actually, I think it makes a lot of sense.


----------



## SolarJ (Sep 12, 2009)

Any concerns with maintenance on the bottom layer? So I see you went with the SE cells are these the 60 AH units? Are you concerned with weight balance? I would think 200 lbs or so over the rear axle would be better like a full tank of gas and exhaust.

Thanks,
Jim


----------



## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

SolarJ said:


> Any concerns with maintenance on the bottom layer? So I see you went with the SE cells are these the 60 AH units? Are you concerned with weight balance? I would think 200 lbs or so over the rear axle would be better like a full tank of gas and exhaust.
> 
> Thanks,
> Jim



The weight distribution I think is great remove the ice put in less than what was there, as for maintenence not too big of a deal to access cells on the bottom layer. Hopefully that doesn't happen often. Yes they are Sky Energy 60 AH cells,, the motor is mounted "mid engine" and low so the weight is perfect I think all the way around. This car was built to be electric!!!

Brian


----------



## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

david85 said:


> A stacker pack. Now that is ambitious. Was only a matter of time before some one tried it, might as well be you.
> 
> Actually, I think it makes a lot of sense.


keeps everything right where it needs to be,, "STACKER PACK" I like that....

Brian


----------



## Buckster (Nov 4, 2009)

I am very impressed with that motor install, are you saying that battery packs weigh less than the motor that was there previously? I imaging the AC motor weighs something around the weight of the gearbox and transfer case, possibly less.


----------



## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

Buckster said:


> I am very impressed with that motor install, are you saying that battery packs weigh less than the motor that was there previously? I imaging the AC motor weighs something around the weight of the gearbox and transfer case, possibly less.


Motor is like 220 pounds mount I am sure is 40 pounds
batteries weigh 4.8 pounds each so 480 pounds up there where the ICE was
when I took all the ICE Crap to the recycler it was 1200 pounds of crap. Still will be removing the full size spare tire from under the rear of the car,, that sucker is very heavy.

The Original ICE motor was a V 6 so it was very heavy,, over all when I am done I suspect the car will lbe 200-300 pounds lighter.

Brian


----------



## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

rctous said:


> when I took all the ICE Crap to the recycler it was 1200 pounds of crap. Still will be removing the full size spare tire from under the rear of the car,, that sucker is very heavy.
> 
> The Original ICE motor was a V 6 so it was very heavy
> 
> Brian


1200lbs, does that include the motor, transmission, and transfer case? I don't think a 350v8 and transmission even weighs that much.


----------



## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

JRP3 said:


> 1200lbs, does that include the motor, transmission, and transfer case? I don't think a 350v8 and transmission even weighs that much.


Scratching my head on that one too. The 6.9L diesel in my old F250 is 1200lbs of iron with accessories and fluids all topped up. What the heck did they have in that kia that weighed so much???


----------



## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

JRP3 said:


> 1200lbs, does that include the motor, transmission, and transfer case? I don't think a 350v8 and transmission even weighs that much.


yes that was everything I took out,, front pumpkin axles etc,, this was a very well built car with very heavy steel parts

Brian

not sure exactly what the engine weighed but it was heavy


----------



## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Ah I forgot about the front axles and dif being removed.


----------



## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

Ah yes, that would tip the scales a little.


----------



## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

david85 said:


> Scratching my head on that one too. The 6.9L diesel in my old F250 is 1200lbs of iron with accessories and fluids all topped up. What the heck did they have in that kia that weighed so much???


plus the battery,


----------



## Buckster (Nov 4, 2009)

rctous said:


> Motor is like 220 pounds mount I am sure is 40 pounds
> batteries weigh 4.8 pounds each so 480 pounds up there where the ICE was
> when I took all the ICE Crap to the recycler it was 1200 pounds of crap. Still will be removing the full size spare tire from under the rear of the car,, that sucker is very heavy.
> 
> ...


Wow, those figures are very interesting to me as I am about to start calculating weight distribution for my vehicle and it has made me realise I may actually need some ballast in one of the base vehicles I was considering as the motor battery combination is potentially too light, in your case removing the spare from the rear is wise to reduce the possibility of the vehicle becoming tail happy. Vehicle handling is one of my areas of expertise having worked on a number of race vehicles in the past. I was expecting to have to space the batteries more front and rear but realise now I may have to consider further batteries just to give proper weight distribution, not a bad problem to have all in.


----------



## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

Buckster said:


> in your case removing the spare from the rear is wise to reduce the possibility of the vehicle becoming tail happy.


well I was more concerned about the 70-80 pounds I can give up by getting it out of the car, heck its not like you will ever be too far from home to get it if you ever needed to. I like the way the weight is being distributed.

Brian


----------



## O'Zeeke (Mar 9, 2008)

rctous said:


> well I was more concerned about the 70-80 pounds I can give up by getting it out of the car, heck its not like you will ever be too far from home to get it if you ever needed to. I like the way the weight is being distributed.
> 
> Brian


I got rid of mine too and just carry a can of fix-a-flat. Actually i never could fit it in with all the lead anyway. Great work Brian.


----------



## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

Had a great couple of days,, all the battery mounts and the controller mounts are done!!!! Just getting a couple coates of paint on them then they will go in for the last time. Time to place the batteries in for the final time. I went with a stack of 60 cells on the bottom rack and 40 on the top rack , needed the room for the controller, (easy mod) and the controller I originally planned on mounting ot off the fire wall but never really liked that idea so now as you can see it is mounted to a piece of angle that goes acreoos the fender locations, I was going to rubber mount it but as it is it flexes nicely on the angle iron,, I like it! Get the bottom tray and a row of batteries mounted later today or tomorrow.

The BMS system has shipped and I expect it next week, the Elcon charger is about 10 days away,, timing should be perfect. Ripped the factory stereo out and will get a new standard DIN mounted on mounted lower in the dash, this will make room for the touch screen monitor that will go in the factory stereo's location. Its kinda cool doing some stereo work as that was my background for 20 years +.


----------



## lottos (Jun 22, 2008)

Must be getting exciting to be close to completed... will it be hard for you to hand your baby over?


----------



## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

lottos said:


> Must be getting exciting to be close to completed... will it be hard for you to hand your baby over?


Dude you have no idea how excited I am right now. I like it when things work out right. Sometimes that happens,, as long as the motor turns and all the programming of the BMS and the charging and the touch screen go as well I am in good shape,, just say NO to SMOKE!!! Don't want to see any of it.

Giving it up will suck this is definatly a ride I would love to keep. The owner just came by and likes the progress so far,,, nearing then end. He is more excited than I am. As long as I don't electricute myself on 350 VDC I should be OK.

Brian


----------



## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

Some would call this a waste of time (meaning I just got to pull them out again), but I have been waiting a long time to see these bad boys in the car,, they look pretty cool!!!!

Brian


----------



## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

That looks so good to see all those cells in there.


----------



## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

pulled the battery rack out for what I hope is the last time. I added some "hooks" if you would underneath the tray, well 12 on the bottom rack and 8 on the top rack. I plan to run aircraft cable over the top of each group of 10 cells and use this as a tie down. The rows of each 10 cells will also be compressed together. I will send photos as this happens. The cable is rated at 1000+ pounds so I assume that will be plenty strong.

My BMS will be here Friday (hopefully) and I want ot have the lower rack of batteries in so I can start adding the cell boards and move on. The charger is still probably 10 days away from me,, be needing that pretty darn quick.

Got all the misc parts ordered and are coming in every day things like the wire, battery lugs, CD player, antenna adapter, heater relay, etc etc etc. I think i have all I need to finish and any thing else is not specialty so I can pick up locally.

So close, been studying the manual for the controller,,, lots going on in this compared to the previous DC systems I did.

Brian


----------



## RKM (Jun 9, 2008)

Hey Brian,

Congrats on getting so close.

I'm trying to visualize your plans for the cable and hooks for your tie down system. Are you planning to use a single continuous cable that will follow a serpentine pattern over the cells and under the hooks? Will this be tensioned via a turnbuckle? Do you plan to protect the top edges of the cells from the cable? Looking forward to seeing the pictures.

How do you intend to compress the cells to prevent potential swelling?

Good luck

Rob


----------



## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

RKM said:


> Hey Brian,
> 
> Congrats on getting so close.
> 
> ...



just made one of the compressors for keeping the cells tight 10 minutes ago,I will run all thread through the spaces in the cells. As for the cable no it will go over in the center , of each row of 10 cells and yes it will be tightened down with turnbuckles. (10 of them) I got stainless steel / Alum ones off e bay for pretty cheap, they retail at Ace for like 7.99 each+ they were free shipping. The cable is aircraft cable rated at 1050 pounds. I do not plan on having them like super tight but yes I plan (at this point) to add something to the top corners of the cells perhaps small angle aluminum pieces. The bottom cells will also be held down quite well just from the "compression" plates I am constructing.

Not sure if the pics add some light on it but you can see the hooks at the bottom that will hold the turnbuckles and cable, (made all 20 of them from 5/16 rod). Well time to get on with Thanksgiving day so off for now.


----------



## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

Got the BMS pieces today WOW,, gonna be some work here I tell ya. comes with black master control box and basicall 100 inner battery boards. Thats the easy part, had to order special shielded 4 conductor wire, fortunately I have the crinpers to make all the crimping to all the pin connectors, none of that is done or supplied for you. Just reading through the Elithion site to familiarise myself with the procedure. Just going to be alot of work but certainly dooable. Just basically waiting on my cable so I can permanetly mount in the batteries then start the wiring, then interface this all into the charger and the AC controller. Hope you guys are ready to lend a hand deciphering the Elithion web site. Some is vague yet some is over my head. I have a few questions on this , the 16 pin molex plug. I will add details later. http://liionbms.com/php/bms_controller_wiring.php


----------



## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

So the way I see the 16 pin molex:
pin#1 = ground to chassis?
pin#2 = 12vdc out looks like low current 12 out when BMS is on?
pin#3 = looks like main 12 vdc in to be fused to handle loads from accessory 12 volt devices like relay to a fan to cool batteries?
pin#4 = V+ from charger= "no idea"
pin#5 = looks like 12vdc ignition from car?
pin#6 = not real sure??
pin#7 = 5 vdc out perhaps a LED for "on" status?
pin#8 = can
pin#9 = high current ground to chassis (12vdc-)
pin#10 = not sure I need this or pin #11 as it looks like it does the same as the 5 pin "grouped" battery connectors.
pin#11 same as above
pin#12 not sure if it a + or - output to shut down controller????
pin#13 soc I am ok with this
pin#14 similar to above if I incorporate gauges to these,, I am assuming I will have this info from the controller on the touchscreen/ laptop. perhaps not
pin# 15 CCL need to see if its positive or negative but I assume it will controll the AC relay that will turn the charger on and off as necessary
pin# 16 CAN high ( I am ok here I think)

Well thats where I am at if ya get a chance to confirm or deny or any input is apprieciated I have a few days left befor it gets down and dirty.

Thanks All 

Brian


----------



## gdirwin (Apr 7, 2009)

Hi Brian:

I have not installed one of these yet (I just ordered my Elithion system) - this forced me to dig into this stuff a bit early (good stuff this).

They seem to put a lot of emphasis on the ground signals - my interpretation:
- Pin 1 (signal low current ground): thin wire to 12V battery -ve terminal
- Pin 9 (high current ground): thick wire to 12V battery -ve terminal
- chassis of the BMS controller grounded to frame of car
- frame of car should be connected to 12V -ve terminal in many places

Pin 3 and 4 look like 2 x 12V inputs (from charger and from 12V ignition on) and both should probably be fused the same. Not sure why they mention the Pin3 to a 12V signal which is "on for a few seconds after the ignition is turned on - probably this would be a constant 12V whenever the ignition is on. 

Which charger are you using? Does it have a 12V out signal when it is on and charging? See the specific write-ups here for your charger (http://liionbms.com/php/bms_system_wiring.php).

I will use a Manzanita Micro PFC-40M - I believe this charger is not isolated from the main AC voltages (ie it connects the pack voltage -ve to the AC ground). It seems to have a reg-bus connector, which has a 5V output signal (not 12V) - to provide isolation and to bump this to 12V as required by the BMS, I will probably use the 5V charger regbus output signal into an external relay (driven by 12V). Not sure yet..

My charger does not generate a 5V signal proportional to the charging current, so Pin 6 will be connected to a separate current sensor that measures charging current (this sensor is part of my BMS package I believe). The PFC40M charger has a digital meter on it, which shows how much current is drawn from the mains... This will be useful as I sometimes want to draw 15 amps from a 120V supply (opportunity charging), but later the full 40Amps from a 240V supply when available...

Pin 10 (low voltage limit) should probably be wired to your main traction controller - if a low battery voltage is detected, the BMS controller should signal your traction controller to go into limp mode. Alternatively you can wire to a light in the dash, advising you to backoff and not punch it until you get home. See the "wishful thinking" discussion later about using DCL signal or SOC signal to limit the controller's current draw...

Pin 11 (high voltage limit) will be wired to the charger, telling it to turn off when the highest voltage cell goes above a threshold. This is related to Pin 15 (CCL) which would give a smooth/analog current limit as the pack voltage increases above a certain limit - bang/bang (ie on/off) vs smooth control. Hopefully your charger can use the smooth control signals (CCL) and does not have to rely on bang/bang on/off control (like mine) - see later discussion.

Pin 12 (fault) sounds like it can be programmed to be either a Gnd or 12V signal, and I think you are correct that it should disable the main traction controller and initiate a dash CEL light or similar.... I will also use this to drive an AC SSR (solid state relay) that will disconnect the AC supply under fault conditions (as recommened by Elithion).


I will use the gauge from Elithion (http://liionbms.com/php/6DS0003K.php) which connects to the CAN bus (pins 8 and 16), so do not need Pins 13- presumably you can connect this to an analog SOC meter... I will later have a car computer which will have some sort of digital to analog data acquisition card for input signals - a good use of this signal...


There is a good write up here (http://liionbms.com/php/bms_functional_descr.php) that talks about pins 14 and 15 (DCL and CCL) - in my case I think neither pin is to be used - which is a shame. When the battery pack reaches a high enough voltage, the BMS will tell the charger to completely shut off (via pin 11 HLIM). The BMS will then drain some current from the highest voltage cell, then later will tell the charger to turn on again. Nothing in this process tells the charger to slow down - ie it is a bang/bang controller (on or off). It would be nice if the charger used a smooth/proportional input signal that could limit the current to a maximum level - the BMS outputs this signal (via Pin 15 CCL) but the charger is not smart enough to use it...


I am not sure if my controller (Zilla) can use Pin 14 (DCL) - again instead of getting a hard "slow down" on/off signal if a cell voltage gets too low (Pin 10 LLIM) the BMS is smart and can generate a proportional/analog signal DCL which could be used to gradually apply limits to the controller, limiting how much power you should have available. I do not think DCL is the right way to go about it however, as when you punch it with a partially discharged pack, the battery voltages will quickly sag below the lowest voltage level - in effect it will become an on/off signal quickly. What would be better is to use the SOC level to control what the maximum power available to the controller is - if you have a full pack then you can get everything out of the controller, but if you have only 40% of the charge left, it will start limiting how much power the controller can draw... Since the SOC is a slow averaged signal, this would work. I do not know if this has been implemented in any controller yet. 

Personally I think a good SOC meter and LLIM warning light is all I need - if I see there is very little pack energy left, you should be smart enough not to punch it to avoid damaging cells with low voltages. However if you need to punch it during an emergency (get out of the way) I prefer to have that option (instead of the controller forcing a limit on me) - in other words no limp mode for me... Perhaps a hidden switch for valet mode sure, but user controllet limits are fine if you have good information available to tell you what state your pack is in...


I also bought the HV front end, which should keep the high voltage signals isolated from the LV signals - only affects the B+ and B- wiring, but otherwise similar. You may want to ask if this is advised (as you are using 320V) - this would minimize any EMI/noise from your controller/charger from entering into the sensitive BMS LV wiring...





I agree that EVComponents has been most helpful - they would be my first outlet for questions and to get hard facts (not just opinions/interpretations like mine)...

Please keep updating this thread - it has been most helpful to me (and many others I am sure) - thanks!

Garth


----------



## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

gdirwin said:


> Hi Brian:
> 
> I have not installed one of these yet (I just ordered my Elithion system) - this forced me to dig into this stuff a bit early (good stuff this).
> 
> ...


WOW Garth thanks for all the info. I looked at it all twice so far and I am sure I will look at it again and again. To answer/ reply I had to print your reply and pick it apart.

pin 4 powered by the charger? Not sure if it has a 12 vdc out of the charger, It is an Elcon charger, 90-250 vac input, 365vdc max output. My understanding for controlling the charger was that it is turned on and off through an AC relay that has a 12 vdc coil. ( I ordered that with the charger. That being the case I would think pin #11 HLIM would go to the AC relay coli side to take power away from the chargers input thus shut it off. It will stay in this shut off mode till the higher charged cells get below the thresh hold I program into the BMS. They get down to lets say 3.58 volts and the charger turns on again. I guess if the charger has a 12 vdc sencing wire for turn on/off then that is where pin #4 would go. Or it looks like pin #4 is a chrarging indicator to the bms system to know it is charging?

I agree pin#12 should just be a warning signal not shut down the system,,, I can program the system to slow or shut down at low voltage through the AC controller for the motor. Yes pin #12 just a light again.

AS for the charger going on BANG BANG it will be at like 95% full charged so it should come on at only an amp or so perhaps even less,, I also believe the charger ramps up the current based on what it sees on traction pack voltage. Yes nothing tells the charger to slow down but its part of the charging curve that will make it put out lower amperage. But I agree with your comment.

Again THANKS and I will re read this a few more times. What if any of the pins actually receive traction pack voltage? None of them right?

PIN #5 cont req probably not used? 5v in 
PIN#3 must be ignition

still need to read more

Thanks for all so far,, not done yet but starting this week

Brian


----------



## frodus (Apr 12, 2008)

I'm with EVComponents and have also purchased one of these units for my EV..... so I'm going to be in the same place you all are very soon.

I'll be able to find the info that you need if you want, and if I can't find it, I'll make sure to get it somehow....

Just let me know through PM or on this thread (maybe we should start an elithion thread and repost some of this info?????) and I can help however you need. Really looks like a solid system.


----------



## gdirwin (Apr 7, 2009)

rctous said:


> I agree pin#12 should just be a warning signal not shut down the system,,, I can program the system to slow or shut down at low voltage through the AC controller for the motor. Yes pin #12 just a light again.
> 
> AS for the charger going on BANG BANG it will be at like 95% full charged so it should come on at only an amp or so perhaps even less,, I also believe the charger ramps up the current based on what it sees on traction pack voltage. Yes nothing tells the charger to slow down but its part of the charging curve that will make it put out lower amperage. But I agree with your comment.
> ...
> Brian



Shame that you actually have to "pull the plug" on the charger when it reaches HLIM (by opening the AC inputs via your relay) - ideally there would be another input signal to tell it to stay on but have no output for a while... It may be hard on the charger to keep turning it on/off/on/off during balancing (especially when you have 100 cells)...

You may want to use a 2nd AC relay in series with the first - if a FLT (pin 12) occurs, you want to remove the AC input to the charger. Ie you could have a FLT fault, but HLIM is not activated?

Good point about the "bang bang" type of control vs using the CCL signal - hopefully the charger would be smart enough to reduce its current based on the total pack voltage. For me it would it safer if the charger could accept an actual current limit though - likely this would be set to be lower than the shunting current capability of your cell boards... If you have a heavily unbalanced pack, then the pack voltage might be low, yet 1 cell has reached HLIM - if the charger comes on too high, you would still be overloading that one cell...

After some research, the PFC-40 charger has a custom/digital input (on its Reg connection) that seems to use an actual current limit - the inputs are used only by Manzanita when talking with its own digital BMS board. Shame this couldn't also be used by the Elithion system... Doesn't help either of us.

Travis would be a great asset here - he would have the inside info via EVComponents and has the vested interest as he is using it personally. A great idea to start an Elithion thread (and move some of this stuff into it). Travis - what charger are you using?


----------



## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

frodus said:


> I'm with EVComponents and have also purchased one of these units for my EV..... so I'm going to be in the same place you all are very soon.
> 
> I'll be able to find the info that you need if you want, and if I can't find it, I'll make sure to get it somehow....
> 
> Just let me know through PM or on this thread (maybe we should start an elithion thread and repost some of this info?????) and I can help however you need. Really looks like a solid system.


Travis my hero nice to see ya on here instead of on the phone,,, LOL after spending the last few hours watching the game (go N.O.) and reading the Elithion web page and going through all the pages then the sub pages it is all starting to make sence to me now. I really need that touch screen though as my customer does not want a laptop built into his car and that is difficult to scroll through options while driving.

one concern I have , Travis is the shielded wire I had to by today from Digi Key, I ordered exactly the wire called out in the specs ( had to get a 100 foot roll) oh well extra for the next EV I guess. Any way the foil shielding will be stripped back about 3 feet since I have banks of 10 cells and the outer most positive and the outer most negative are about 20" apart, if I run the wire down the center of the "group" it still leaves me with at least 10-12" to get to the control boards,,, will this length and lack of foil shielding cause too much noise ? Or not to worry about it? To me I don't think its going to be an issue but I'd hate to have to do it over. Makes more sense to me to use 2 conductor foil shielded wire 2x from the plug that plugs into the BMS control box.

Also need to get the game plan for interfacing the AC controller to the BMS,, 

Any how Travis I think keeping this going on here for now is a great idea.

Brian


----------



## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

gdirwin said:


> You may want to use a 2nd AC relay in series with the first - if a FLT (pin 12) occurs, you want to remove the AC input to the charger. Ie you could have a FLT fault, but HLIM is not activated?
> 
> 
> Travis would be a great asset here - he would have the inside info via EVComponents and has the vested interest as he is using it personally.
> ...


----------



## tomofreno (Mar 3, 2009)

> ...in my case I think neither pin is to be used - which is a shame. When the battery pack reaches a high enough voltage, the BMS will tell the charger to completely shut off (via pin 11 HLIM). The BMS will then drain some current from the highest voltage cell, then later will tell the charger to turn on again. Nothing in this process tells the charger to slow down - ie it is a bang/bang controller (on or off).


 This is my understanding of how the Manzanitas work with the Rudman Regulators. The charger cycles from full current to off when pin2 on the regbus is pulled up over about 4.4V by a "hot reg" signal connecting pin 1 (5V) to pin 2. When the regulator board shunt cools, the charger goes full on again. But someone posted on EVDL that you can cut back the charger current rather than turning it off by installing a voltage divider between pins 1 and 4 for input to pin 2. The charger output current can then be cut back to a low level, depending on the voltage at pin 2. In this case I'm not certain what shuts the charger off. Maybe it shuts off when the voltage limit set on the charger is reached and the timer times out? Haven't tried it.


----------



## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

tomofreno said:


> This is my understanding of how the Manzanitas work with the Rudman Regulators. The charger cycles from full current to off when pin2 on the regbus is pulled up over about 4.4V by a "hot reg" signal connecting pin 1 (5V) to pin 2. When the regulator board shunt cools, the charger goes full on again. But someone posted on EVDL that you can cut back the charger current rather than turning it off by installing a voltage divider between pins 1 and 4 for input to pin 2. The charger output current can then be cut back to a low level, depending on the voltage at pin 2. In this case I'm not certain what shuts the charger off. Maybe it shuts off when the voltage limit set on the charger is reached and the timer times out? Haven't tried it.



Interesting and unfortunately I do not have much info on the charger yet to even try to plan the install. I am going to try to get some details on it today.

Brian


----------



## frodus (Apr 12, 2008)

gdirwin said:


> Travis - what charger are you using?


DeltaQ QuiQ 96V Charger


----------



## frodus (Apr 12, 2008)

rctous said:


> Travis has been a to of help already,, telling ya EV Components ROCKS!!!!
> 
> Brian


Actually, I don't think I've helped at all...... not sure if you know, but there are two Travis's, I'm Travis Gintz, the other is Travis Travelstead. He's really helpful and will assist me in anything you guys need.


----------



## frodus (Apr 12, 2008)

> one concern I have , Travis is the shielded wire I had to by today from Digi Key, I ordered exactly the wire called out in the specs ( had to get a 100 foot roll) oh well extra for the next EV I guess. Any way the foil shielding will be stripped back about 3 feet since I have banks of 10 cells and the outer most positive and the outer most negative are about 20" apart, if I run the wire down the center of the "group" it still leaves me with at least 10-12" to get to the control boards,,, will this length and lack of foil shielding cause too much noise ? Or not to worry about it? To me I don't think its going to be an issue but I'd hate to have to do it over. Makes more sense to me to use 2 conductor foil shielded wire 2x from the plug that plugs into the BMS control box.


Then cut a piece of 10" cable and strip both ends and join it to the main cable, that way all is shielded. I'd do that so everything is insulated and shielded.... it should eliminate most of the noise.



> Also need to get the game plan for interfacing the AC controller to the BMS


What AC controller do you have?


----------



## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

frodus said:


> Actually, I don't think I've helped at all...... not sure if you know, but there are two Travis's, I'm Travis Gintz, the other is Travis Travelstead. He's really helpful and will assist me in anything you guys need.



Ya I sent a few e-mails to both of ya and kept getting the wrong Travis,, heck I thought there was 10 Traviss',, either way still been helpful,, hopefully Travis has my new black box done??????

Brian


----------



## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

frodus said:


> Then cut a piece of 10" cable and strip both ends and join it to the main cable, that way all is shielded. I'd do that so everything is insulated and shielded.... it should eliminate most of the noise.
> 
> 
> What AC controller do you have?


The Solectria 55

man that means I really need to use 2 wire foil shielded from that "Y" split then more soldering and adding more foil at the joint to insure its still all grounded to the BMS side. Ya in hindsite I may just re order 2 conductor foil shielded with a chase ground wire, that sucks but its the right thing to do. Thank fully Digi Key is so fast at shipping it won't take long to get it, heck after all its just money,, but this will come out of my pocket,, unless any one needs some 4 conductor shielded wire?? HINT HINT

Brian


----------



## mrbigh (Dec 31, 2008)

rctous said:


> The Solectria 55
> 
> man that means I really need to use 2 wire foil shielded from that "Y" split then more soldering and adding more foil at the joint to insure its still all grounded to the BMS side. Ya in hindsite I may just re order 2 conductor foil shielded with a chase ground wire, that sucks but its the right thing to do. Thank fully Digi Key is so fast at shipping it won't take long to get it, heck after all its just money,, but this will come out of my pocket,, unless any one needs some 4 conductor shielded wire?? HINT HINT
> 
> Brian


The right approach to this, is to do straight runs of proper sizing shielded wiring from batteries to controller, nobody is going to get broke because of the "investment" on a spool of wire.


----------



## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

mrbigh said:


> The right approach to this, is to do straight runs of proper sizing shielded wiring from batteries to controller, nobody is going to get broke because of the "investment" on a spool of wire.


YA YA YA I already ordered the other wire!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Brian


----------



## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

Travis where does the magnetic pick up on the motor hook to the controller?? Can't seem to find it

Brian


----------



## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

these look to be the coolest battery warmers,,, http://store.kta-ev.com/FarnamBatteryHeaterPad.aspx bought 7 of them, Just wanted to pass it along

Brian


----------



## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

I wonder if these might be a better deal. 5"x28" for $33.
http://www.carparts.com/BLANKET-STY...=73771597&zmas=17&zmac=100&zmap=10618-2006128
I assume you can unwrap them and lay them out if you want to put them in the bottom of a box.


----------



## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

JRP3 said:


> I wonder if these might be a better deal. 5"x28" for $33.
> http://www.carparts.com/BLANKET-STY...=73771597&zmas=17&zmac=100&zmap=10618-2006128
> I assume you can unwrap them and lay them out if you want to put them in the bottom of a box.


I looked at those but they are to thick for my purpose, I need these to be super thin and at .010 thats pretty darn thin.

I plan to add a lighted switch next to the main plug in (gas filler ) that will switch the heaters on and off by the user. Ya 105 bucks for the other ones + I paid for 2 day shipping as I want them this week end.


Worked on the surrounding box for the lower battery tray,, lookin good but tons of work for something so simple. I was heating 1/8" ABS and throwing it in my brake to bend it, Thats simple enough but it had to fit inside a the tray, I will get a photo later tonight.


Brian


----------



## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

This is sort of my battery strap down/ "squish" system. The cable will be ran through a hole placed in the plastic at the right height ( not running over top of it) but I cannot drill those holes till the battery warmers show up tomorrow and are in place to give me the right height . Also I figured I will use a real crimp on the other side instead of masking tape. I should have the front 10 batteries in tomorrow after the warmers show up. These 10 I will install with the rack outside the car as they are hardest to access, the remaining 50 on the lower rack I will place in the car and do all the work with the rack in. 

The larger side pieces of ABS will be lower not on top of the all thread, this was just to help clarify my plan. Certainly these will not go any where. Also I will put shrink tube over the entire length of cable to make it look better. Gonna add 12 vdc to the BMS module and see if I can play with the programming on the computer.

Brian


----------



## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

And on a side note I just noticed that all 100 pcs of the battery cards are the wrong length. which means I need to de solder every wire ,crimp on a new ring terminal and resolder it to every board,, that sucks,, be sure if you ever order this system to specify the length from center to center of your batteries,, don't just give them your exact specific battery you are using. Just a ton of extra work I did not need!!!! DANG!!!!

Brian


----------



## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

Managed to add power to the bms and actually read through the menus and change what I needed to ,, pretty easy (surprised me) there is a ton of programmability in there WOW.

Brian


----------



## gdirwin (Apr 7, 2009)

rctous said:


> ... I just noticed that all 100 pcs of the battery cards are the wrong length. which means I need to de solder every wire ,crimp on a new ring terminal and resolder it to every board...
> Brian


This page (http://liionbms.com/php/prismatic_cell_boards.php) shows the Centre to Centre post length as 1.4" (35.56mm).

Great advice - I will ask if they can make mine to fit right my cells directly...

Are those 100Ah cells? Any reason you chose SE over TS cells?


----------



## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

gdirwin said:


> This page (http://liionbms.com/php/prismatic_cell_boards.php) shows the Centre to Centre post length as 1.4" (35.56mm).
> 
> Great advice - I will ask if they can make mine to fit right my cells directly...
> 
> Are those 100Ah cells? Any reason you chose SE over TS cells?


60 AH cells,,, and I told them the batteries I had.

chose SE as I bought directly from manufacturer and got 100 "matched "cells + my research showed that the SE batteries were better. ( hold better voltage under load ) better cycle life

just what I found.

Brian


----------



## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

Well here is the first row of 10 cells installed permanetly, the cables are taught not tight but the cells are very solid in their new permanate home. Now get em wired in.

Brian

PS I got the heaters and they are awesome Great product by KTA!!!!!!!!!!

will show pics later


----------



## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

Some more progress on the first 10 batteries,, have 32.9 vdc so far,, getting there. Now to add the jumper wires for between each cell card,, worst part so far was extendin/ making the positive ring terminal longer,, as I said befor that really sucks!

Brian


----------



## Overlander23 (Jun 15, 2009)

I, too, ordered the same heaters for my setup. Are you doing anything about temperature management? Thermostat, etc?


----------



## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

Overlander23 said:


> I, too, ordered the same heaters for my setup. Are you doing anything about temperature management? Thermostat, etc?


no I am not, don't really see the point, 35 watts they will only get so hot and then maintain that temp,, and as well I am not using 100% bottom coverage but the batteries are in a sealed box. I just wired in the 4 bottom ones and have them plugged in to see how hot they get. They feel pretty nice probably 130 degrees or so,, I really like these!!!!!!!!!


Brian


----------



## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

More progress, got the lower rack in the car for the final time, this time it has some batteries in it. The 60 lower cells are all mounted other than the cabling I need to do. The all thread method worked just great, it really pulled them together. Not the repitition starts,, I HATE repetition big time but some one needs to do it,, again the worst is the 90 more battery cards I dread the most,,,,,. Notice I made a small groove in the cells for the cable to ride in.

Brian


----------



## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

OK callin it a day,, pretty good day too I might add. Bottom 60 batteries in and fully secure,, I may spend some time tonight working on 50 more cell boards.. Did I mention that SUCKS!!!!!! Any way its all going together almost like it was planned. I am very happy with it thus far. Got a business thing tomorrow so not sure what I will get done tomorrow but theres always tomorrow night I guess,,, did I mention I hate repetition??? Ya thats whats left.

Brian


----------



## TheSGC (Nov 15, 2007)

Wow, all the blue looks really good!

So what's left once the batteries are all wired up?


----------



## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

TheSGC said:


> Wow, all the blue looks really good!
> 
> So what's left once the batteries are all wired up?


not too much,, adjusting , setting, programming,test all systems, brakes , heater see if all the stuff I did a few months ago actually works. Want to make a shroud that covers virtually everything under the hood,, fiberglass mold etc, painted grey / silver to match the car. Just a ton of wiring pretty much, hope the charger gets here next week. As soon as I do have my 329vdc ( cells are sitting now at 3.29 vdc each) I can run a few tests to actually see if the motor turns, see if the belt stays on the AC compressor. Probably won't charge the AC till Spring though.

Ya getting close like I said just a ton of wiring. Did I mention a TON of wiring.

Brian


----------



## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

Brian, I am a little concerend about the cells that are in the center of the tie down string. There isn't very much tension clamping them down there. Although I guess once you make all the connections the bus bars will help tie everything together.

Those BMS chips are a pain though. The clamps I made for BWH's boxes interfered with them too. I have no idea if he will even be able to use them.


----------



## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

david85 said:


> Brian, I am a little concerend about the cells that are in the center of the tie down string. There isn't very much tension clamping them down there. Although I guess once you make all the connections the bus bars will help tie everything together.
> 
> .


I can assure you those center cells will never budge, the all thread that goes horizontally goes through the grooves on the cells that also hold them down, for that to fail it would need to shear that + break the cable. Heck in hindsite the all thread alone probably would be sufficient, but it can't hurt + the cable system is very light weight.

Thanks for your concern though.

Brian


----------



## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

david85 said:


> Those BMS chips are a pain though. The clamps I made for BWH's boxes interfered with them too. I have no idea if he will even be able to use them.


The BMS chips are just very labor intensive,, especially when ya add having to modify 100 of them that I shouldn't have to be doing. Got 31 left to do,, getting faster at it.

brian


----------



## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

A look at what I have been doing the last 3 hours!! Got the 18 POS and negs done just 31 mid cards left. Th eone with the yellow wire is my mod job. All mids now have yellow wire , positive cards = red wire and negative cards = black wire. This is how they should have been done in the first place. Other wise its pretty tough to tell the difference.

Brian


----------



## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

Getting into scary voltages now. Just need to run jumpers to mid boards then the lower rack is complete. Voltage averages so far to 3.29666666 sound perfect to me. Not taking nearly as long as I thought it would, I really like the blue shrink!!!

Brian


----------



## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

well got the mid board communication wiring done on the lower 60 ,, did I mention I hate repetition!!! I will try to still get this hooked up to the bms tomorrow and do a few tests to make sure all cards are good,, I would hate to have to go in later for a bad card replacement.

Brian


----------



## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

Good to know on the hold down clamps.

Man I must have screwed up about half a dozen connections along the way with my multible boxes and non standard internal orientation. Connect everything up and measure only ~50VDC

Rip some hair out. Tear it down, re check everything, put it back together, 160

Yeah thats more than enough to go through your hand if you press hard on a metal piece or if you have some sweat on your hands. Don't even want to think about what you are dealing with, but you seem to know what you are doing.

Are your cells charged all the way? I'm curious what they read on a full charge because mine are 3.33V fully charged at rest (no surface charge). I think they are supposed to be shipped around 70~80% SOC.


----------



## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

david85 said:


> Good to know on the hold down clamps.
> 
> Man I must have screwed up about half a dozen connections along the way with my multible boxes and non standard internal orientation. Connect everything up and measure only ~50VDC
> 
> ...


Bats are about 60% charged,, 3.3 is nominal voltage ( some are 3.2) either way they are all in good shape. The cells will be charged to 365 vdc max or 3.65 volts per cell, many people go to just 3.6 but over the years dealing with LiFePO4 cells I think they are better at 3.65 per cell.

Charger shipped a couple days ago and I will certainly have it next week when I need it.

As for the voltage I did grab the 36 volt string just to see if I would get a "BUZZ" and I didn't so I grabbed the 72 vdc string still nothing went to the 108 voltage still nothing buzz wise,, I didn't go further , didn't wet my fingers and didn't press to hard but firm,, Oh well just had to see. Mabey I am just not a conductive person???

Brian


----------



## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

David what is the max voltage of your charger?? Your cells seem low????

Does the factory recommend 3.6 or 4.2 volts per cell?
3.6 I would guess


----------



## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

Maybe I am more contuctive than you

I've even managed to get a slight buzz from 12 volts through a thin layer of skin near a cut on my hand. Think I was working on my LPG powered F150 at the time.

The charger will push the cells to 3.6~3.7 and hold them there for a while before auto shut off. Charger is rated at 176V so thats 3.6666.....VDC for each cell. I suspect 4.2 is more of a warranty/safety limit then ideal operating range.

Leave them to rest overnight and they will settle at around 3.3 each and stay there for months on end.


----------



## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

interesting,, usually the drop I see in lifepo4 -(A123) cells is down to about 3.5 ish and hold there. Perhaps there bigger, lower "C rated " cells are different,, I will find out soon enough.

HUMMMMMM

Brian

4.2 volts is primarily for Lipoly type cells 4.1 vdc for Li-ion Lifepo4 cells 3.6- 3.7 is about the max ya want to go, There is almost no extra capacity from 3.6 to 4.2 volts with lifepo4. ( it would go from 3.6 to 4.2 very fast) If charged at that high of voltage over a period of time I suspect that the cycle life of the cell would suffer.


----------



## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

rctous said:


> interesting,, usually the drop I see in lifepo4 -(A123) cells is down to about 3.5 ish and hold there. Perhaps there bigger, lower "C rated " cells are different,, I will find out soon enough.
> 
> HUMMMMMM
> 
> ...


Agreed....


----------



## _GonZo_ (Mar 23, 2009)

> Bats are about 60% charged,, 3.3 is nominal voltage ( some are 3.2) either way they are all in good shape. The cells will be charged to 365 vdc max or 3.65 volts per cell, many people go to just 3.6 but over the years dealing with LiFePO4 cells I think they are better at 3.65 per cell.


One little detail, before you hook the cells in series you should get them in exact same voltage, the easyest way is to hook them all temporaly on parallel for soem hours. If they are all in a range of 3,2 to 3,3

When the cells are just received they should be all at the same SOC usually arround 3,2 to 3,3 as you say.
If in a bunch of cells that are all for example at 3.24V we find any over or under that voltage we put them away and let them rest for some months.
Sometimes the cells that have little lower voltage upon receival they keep on drooping more voltage than the rest for the same period of time, that means that they are not good, so we send them back to manufacturer or destroy (it happens in a rate about 1 per 1000 cells on good manufacturers and up to 4 per 1000 on lower quality cells)



> As for the voltage I did grab the 36 volt string just to see if I would get a "BUZZ" and I didn't so I grabbed the 72 vdc string still nothing went to the 108 voltage still nothing buzz wise,, I didn't go further , didn't wet my fingers and didn't press to hard but firm,, Oh well just had to see. Mabey I am just not a conductive person???


Are you kidding  a DC current shock can kill you instanly, it is more dangerous than AC... 



> Originally Posted by *rctous*
> _interesting,, usually the drop I see in lifepo4 -(A123) cells is down to about 3.5 ish and hold there. Perhaps there bigger, lower "C rated " cells are different,, I will find out soon enough.
> 
> HUMMMMMM
> ...


I agree as well.
If you want to fully charge Life cells then 3,65 to 3,7V is the way to go, and a must on colud temperatures.
As you say there is no extra capacity over that voltage.
3,5-3,55V charging limit is a good point in order to get the maximun life spam.
When finish charged the Life cell voltage droops around 1-1,3V that is normal.
4,2 is the limit voltage they can support before big internal damages ocurrs. (it is good because it is quite far from fully charge point)

On Lipo or Lion (3,7V nominal) limit is usually 4,26 to 4,3V over that the cell start getting bad damages and there is risck of fire.
A droop of 0,3-0,5V is normal after charge is shut down.


----------



## _GonZo_ (Mar 23, 2009)

rctous, your pack construction looks great, but there is and issue on it and ihave seen it as well in other packs constructions here.
The Lixx cells suffer from shape variations from charge/discharge states and time.
Al least (usually more) you will get a variation of 2mm in total pack sizes mostly on wide side, so it is need that you have a "flexible" "compresible" spacer beteewn the external walls and/or beteewn the cells. May be it is in your pack but I can see it in the pictures...
As well the jumping leads have to be calculated in order to suport that. Not a big deal in your case because you are not installing paralell cells.

I think it will be a good idea to make a sticky post about battery handling, construction, etc.
At least basics so people do not go over and over again on the same questions and as well as a reference of safety. This will save time and money to a lot of us.


----------



## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

rctous said:


> Bats are about 60% charged,, 3.3 is nominal voltage ( some are 3.2) either way they are all in good shape. The cells will be charged to 365 vdc max or 3.65 volts per cell, many people go to just 3.6 but over the years dealing with LiFePO4 cells I think they are better at 3.65 per cell.


You have Sky Energy cells, which the manufacturer says have a 3.6 volt MAX. They are not the same as Thundersky which can go to 4.25. Jack Rickard says there is very little above 3.5 volts anyway.


----------



## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

_GonZo_ said:


> rctous, your pack construction looks great, but there is and issue on it and ihave seen it as well in other packs constructions here.
> The Lixx cells suffer from shape variations from charge/discharge states and time.
> Al least (usually more) you will get a variation of 2mm in total pack sizes mostly on wide side, so it is need that you have a "flexible" "compresible" spacer beteewn the external walls and/or beteewn the cells.


Why would you want flexibility between cell walls when they need to be strapped tightly to prevent swelling and distortion? Both SE and TS cells ship with strapping material so cells can't flex.


----------



## tomofreno (Mar 3, 2009)

> As for the voltage I did grab the 36 volt string just to see if I would get a "BUZZ" and I didn't so I grabbed the 72 vdc string still nothing went to the 108 voltage still nothing buzz wise,, I didn't go further , didn't wet my fingers and didn't press to hard but firm,, Oh well just had to see. Mabey I am just not a conductive person???


 If your pack is isolated from ground you can touch a terminal no problem since there is no return path from you to the cells. I sometimes touch mine to see how warm they are after driving. I have also touched them with my arm bumping against the chassis. If a path develops between them and chassis though... So best to get in the habit of not touching them unless you have ensured they have indefinitely high resistance to chassis. Fear is a good thing in this case. And if you do touch, do so lightly with the back of a finger first, rather than grabbing it, so if you get a shock that causes muscles to contract, it pulls your finger away. 

I agree with JRP3 that you don't want to charge your SE cells to 3.65V. There isn't much capacity above 3.5V, and voltage climbs much more rapidly with charging beyond that point. I only charge mine to about 3.44V.


----------



## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

this is a quote directly from the manufacturer

"Voltage alarm upper limit: 3.60v

Voltage cut upper limit: 3.8v

lower limit alarm Voltage: 3.0v

Voltage cut lower limit: 2.5v

Set 100%SOC after fully recharged.

Floating charging voltage (for charger) : 3.4V


----------



## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

_GonZo_ said:


> One little detail, before you hook the cells in series you should get them in exact same voltage, the easyest way is to hook them all temporaly on parallel for soem hours. If they are all in a range of 3,2 to 3,3
> 
> When the cells are just received they should be all at the same SOC usually arround 3,2 to 3,3 as you say.
> If in a bunch of cells that are all for example at 3.24V we find any over or under that voltage we put them away and let them rest for some months.
> ...


all the cells I have tested (60 so far) have been @3.29 vdc don't really see the need to waste the time to try to get them closer. Thats why I have a BMS system,, the .001- to .003 voltage difference is of zero concern to me.

Brian


----------



## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

_GonZo_ said:


> rctous, your pack construction looks great, but there is and issue on it and ihave seen it as well in other packs constructions here.
> The Lixx cells suffer from shape variations from charge/discharge states and time.
> Al least (usually more) you will get a variation of 2mm in total pack sizes mostly on wide side, so it is need that you have a "flexible" "compresible" spacer beteewn the external walls and/or beteewn the cells. May be it is in your pack but I can see it in the pictures...
> As well the jumping leads have to be calculated in order to suport that. Not a big deal in your case because you are not installing paralell cells.
> ...


I just went off the manufacturers instructions stating that they need to be compressed to avoid expansion. So many opinions so little time. At this point I will stick with the manufacturers recommendation.
Many thanks though.

Brian


----------



## _GonZo_ (Mar 23, 2009)

> all the cells I have tested (60 so far) have been @3.29 vdc don't really see the need to waste the time to try to get them closer. Thats why I have a BMS system,, the .001- to .003 voltage difference is of zero concern to me.


Perfect I agree, I thought that you found on your bunch of cells bigger diferences.



> lower limit alarm Voltage: 3.0v
> 
> Voltage cut lower limit: 2.5v


The alarm voltage looks to me a bit high, looks that the manufacturer is trying to prevent full discharges in order to be able to achieve the numer of cicles "life" they say... 



> Why would you want flexibility between cell walls when they need to be strapped tightly to prevent swelling and distortion? Both SE and TS cells ship with strapping material so cells can't flex.





> I just went off the manufacturers instructions stating that they need to be compressed to avoid expansion. So many opinions so little time. At this point I will stick with the manufacturers recommendation.
> Many thanks though.


May be you are right at ths point and tight the pack is OK for EV. So sorry for confusing, it was not my intention.
Let me expalin why we care about that "flexibility". Most of the packs we make are for very special purposses and most of them are critical support for very expensive systems, so a total pack faliure can not happen in any case. We had experience total faliure packs because one cells breacks its case due internal presure rise. That can happen if do not let the pack expand. (depends on the pack architecture if there is more or less risk)
What I mean is that we can not permit our packs a full faliure, a partial faliure of a cell is OK and will be detected and pack will be replaced, but a full faliure no way...
On a EV a full pack faliure because of a cell case breacks will not be a very big issue, the vehicle will just stop and taken to the garage for revision...

Althought it is a fact that the cells experiment a small size grow when charged, so I am prone to think that the air gaps that are in the pack created with the cells "plastic rails" is enough to give the little tolerance need for this and not generate a big internal presure rise.


----------



## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

_GonZo_ said:


> The alarm voltage looks to me a bit high, looks that the manufacturer is trying to prevent full discharges in order to be able to achieve the numer of cicles "life" they say...


Looking at the discharge curve there is very little capacity below 3 volts and the cell will quickly drop after that. You might get some false alarms as the cells sag under high amp draw so 2.8 volts might be better, and this will probably change with temperature.


----------



## _GonZo_ (Mar 23, 2009)

JRP3 said:


> Looking at the discharge curve there is very little capacity below 3 volts and the cell will quickly drop after that. You might get some false alarms as the cells sag under high amp draw so 2.8 volts might be better, and this will probably change with temperature.


You are right, in order to set it up properly it is need to know the working temperature and the most important part the medium discahrge rate.
3V will be OK for a 0,2C discharge (aprox. 5 hours discharge) and i think this is not the case. So as you say 2,8V will be more apropiate

Were can I see that discharging curve you talk about?


----------



## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Here Jack is discharging a 180 ah cell at 99 amps constant:
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_i_c2BM_uB...1tQ7QH41oSM/s1600-h/blueskydischargecurve.jpg
http://jackrickard.blogspot.com/2009/10/sky-energys-blue-sky-cell-data.html


----------



## tomofreno (Mar 3, 2009)

> Here Jack is discharging a 180 ah cell at 99 amps constant:


 I don't understand this data. It shows 181Ah capacity between 3.36V and 2.54V (99A*110/60). There is typically quite a bit of capacity above 3.36V, which would indicate this cell is significantly greater than the 180Ah in the graph title. I don't seem to have near the capacity below 3.2V in my SE180Ah cells that he is showing here. I estimate about 10Ah between 2.95V and 3.15V based on charging at 5A.


----------



## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

So after sitting around after charging your cells don't drop to 3.36 as his did?


----------



## pbyrns (Mar 6, 2009)

rctous said:


> Well hey guys I have been pretty silent for quite some time here and I must say I have missed it. But not any more. You will need to put up with me on this next EV I will be starting. This is slated to be a bit of a winter project so slow going.
> 
> This one promisses to me much more exciting for us all I hope. I am going to use the Solectria AC55 Motor and Inverter/Controller from EV Components http://www.evcomponents.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=AC55
> 
> ...


My experience is that direct drive works great. Anytime you can get the transmission out of the equation, go for it. I have a 96v DC direct drive truck with lead-acid on the road now for almost a year. In our environment that is predominantly flat, it works very well. I'm putting an AC system into a Suzuki van at the moment but unfortunatlely, I have to leave the tranny in as it is part of the rear end with the transaxle set up.
I really love the Japanese vehicles as they are small and light and give great performance. Good luck!


----------



## tomofreno (Mar 3, 2009)

> So after sitting around after charging your cells don't drop to 3.36 as his did?


 I've only charged them once, but no.


----------



## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

Man even th esimple things sometime can seem to just take for ever. I bought the serial to USB adapter for the BMS to communicate with the lap top but look how far the plug sticks straight up? Not an option as I want to display this piece under a plexi panel in a sealed box. So I started my search for 90 degree angle serial plugs and the couple I found were ridiculously priced,, so about 1 1/2 hours later this is my resolve, nice and low profile,,, best part it works!!

Brian


----------



## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

pbyrns said:


> My experience is that direct drive works great. Anytime you can get the transmission out of the equation, go for it. I have a 96v DC direct drive truck with lead-acid on the road now for almost a year. In our environment that is predominantly flat, it works very well. I'm putting an AC system into a Suzuki van at the moment but unfortunatlely, I have to leave the tranny in as it is part of the rear end with the transaxle set up.
> I really love the Japanese vehicles as they are small and light and give great performance. Good luck!



Ya definately direct drive is the ticket (if possible)

Brian


----------



## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

Just got this bad boy in the mail today,, looks pretty cool I will check it out in more detail later.

5000 watts should charge just fine

Brian


----------



## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

Needed a box for the BMS controller so it can be mounted under the hood,, so I made one from ABS plastic. put 45 degree angles around the pieces then CA glued it all together,, It turned out better than I expected.

Brian


----------



## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

Ok getting closer to getting the BMS box ready looks a bit better after running all the cables through. The BMS is an awful lot of work but in the end I am sure it will be worth it all!

Brian


----------



## pbyrns (Mar 6, 2009)

You are doing some nice work.


----------



## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

Well workin on the BMS controller wiring to the boards. Not a fun task at all. Do a row then test on the computer to get all 10 cards to work at first was a challenge, blew up at least a couple of mid board cards and possible a neg and a pos card. After you get a row (in my case 10 cells) hooked up to a bank ( 10 banks in my case) there is an LED on each card that should flash,, well the first 2 banks, bank zero had 3 flashing and and bank one had 7 flashing. Well its like series light bulbs at Christmas, the last flashing card tells you the next one is bad or has an issue. After replacing the card and finding that made no difference at all, do you assume two cards are bad??? So ya grab a third card and still nothing,, no way three cards are bad right? Well then I noticed that by removing the series wire that join the cards together and reconnecting it by just touching it on the solder pad, poof it works,, solder it on and poof it quits???? Dude after about 3 hours managed to get 20 cards all flashing ,,,,,,,,good sign so I thought. I don't think I damaged as many cards as I thought but I will try to use them later in an easier to access spot. So I continue to connects banks of cells and got to 40 cells or 4 banks ( still working on the bottom 60cells) then I am testing cards cells etc through the computer and cell# 26 and cell #39 come up fault "low voltage" well crap grab the volt meter to test the cells and they are perfect 3.297 (or so) on both of them, odd part the cell beside each of these cells shows 4.05 volts so some how the total voltage is correct but the individual cell according to the card is wrong. So cell # 26 has a mid board card so I replace it and poof its all good again. The voltage reading is accurate, OK so replace cells card #39 (which is a positve end board) cell count starts at "0") and it does not fix the issue. So here I am typing this taking a break. Not to sure whats going on but this was suppose to be a couple hours to get the bottom 60 all wired up and here I am trouble shooting,, hate that.

Any way the system I am sure will be awesome but if your not "near expert" at soldering and have the exact right tools, get a friend to help that is. I solder enough to go through 20 pounds of solder per year in my day job so I do know how to solder and I tell ya this is challenging. 
Going up to start a fire as it is like 8 degrees outside today here in Kansas (damn Canadians) LOL. I will sit on this for a while then head back out.

PS heated garage keep it at about 60 degrees.

Brian


----------



## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

pbyrns said:


> You are doing some nice work.


Thanks man!

Brian


----------



## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

rctous said:


> Going up to start a fire as it is like 8 degrees outside today here in Kansas (damn Canadians) LOL. I will sit on this for a while then head back out.
> 
> PS heated garage keep it at about 60 degrees.
> 
> Brian


Don't look at me, I'm out of the country LOL

My parents tell me its very cold in my neck of the woods though. I really need to plan a heater for my car.....


----------



## _GonZo_ (Mar 23, 2009)

Very nice job.


----------



## MJ Monterey (Aug 20, 2009)

I can relate to that cold stuff. 

I'm whining because the Canadians lovingly sent us snow that came down to the 1000 ft level. We have snow on the hills all around us and I had to scrape frost off the windshield this morning!

So even in Sunny California I have the heater on in the garage and am rereading your heater posts. Adding to the project design: Heater and Defroster!

Now that the fog has lifted I can see my toes. I just can't feel them.......

Keep up the inspiring work.
Jack


----------



## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

Just to pass this along. This is in the Elithion manual for side clamping the cells together.

Side clamping
The chemical components in Li-Ion cells expand as their State Of Charge increases. The cell may be damaged if this expansion is not contained (layer separation).

On one end, cylindrical cell inherently contain that expansion by virtue of their shape
On the other end, pouch cells do not contain that expansion at all, and must be placed in a case
Prismatic cells are somewhere in between, as they do have a case, but it is not strong enough to fully contain the expansion
If a pouch or prismatic cell manufacturer tells you that containment is not required, run away from them: they don't know what they're doing.

The expansion of a stack of prismatic cells is contained by:

Placing hard plates on either side of the stack
Squeezing the stack of cells with the plates as far as possible (use threaded rods and screw in the nuts as far as they go)
Clamping the lot by keeping the threaded rods in place or with metal packing straps

I especially liked this part

"If a pouch or prismatic cell manufacturer tells you that containment is not required, run away from them: they don't know what they're doing."

Brian


----------



## _GonZo_ (Mar 23, 2009)

> The chemical components in Li-Ion cells expand as their State Of Charge increases. The cell may be damaged if this expansion is not contained (layer separation).


I think I have to talk with them  I see some thing that is contradictory here.
If the cell is going to expand, *because they do*. (Lithium oxides are lower density that Lithium) waht we do with the "presion" it is not going to go desapear just because you clamp them.


On cilindrical cells, they have a compresion chambers at both sides, but on pounch cells there is no chambers, because they do not need it because of its shape. So we let them crack for the sides? or what other proposal they have in order to prevent it? 

Some release is needed in order to let the cells expand, I do not mean they havr to bee loose but they need some flexibity.


----------



## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

If expansion is allowed, cell material separates, and damages the cell. The cylindrical wound cells by their nature of construction limits expansion, prismatics do not and therefore need to be clamped. I've never seen any information that contradicts this, and as I mentioned most of the cell manufacturers provide a clamping system. I don't see how it can be any clearer.


----------



## mrbigh (Dec 31, 2008)

_GonZo_ said:


> I think I have to talk with them  I see some thing that is contradictory here.
> If the cell is going to expand, *because they do*. (Lithium oxides are lower density that Lithium) what we do with the "presion" it is not going to go disappear just because you clamp them.
> 
> 
> ...


This is what could happen to an improperly banded battery pack, this NiMH assembly went in to thermal expansion for an unregulated power supply charger,with out any safe containment. 
Can you see the damage it can cause? Do not overlook or take shortcuts on your built. 
This DIY modifier paid severely for the consequences.


----------



## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

Back in the garage and I hooked up the remaining 2 banks (20 cells) all works perfectly except that cell #29 still shows 2.04 vdc. I replaced the positive card again ,,, this is the third card so I can't imagine the cards being the issue, I have checked continuity all the way back to the master controller and all is good,, I guess I will try re arranging the plugs in the master ( in the correct order of course) and see if the fault still appears,, this sucks as I cannot get this bottom set of bats out of the way till I get this resolved. I believe th issue withe the first 2 rows is that the boards are 2 sided with the solder pads on both sides and yet if the wire is soldered flat not placed through the through hole it may not make contact with the other side. SO I super heat the fron side to be sure the solder flows to the other side. All that seems OK but fricking cell #29,, sounds like a movie AYE!! (thats for you David)

Brian


----------



## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

Wow success on CELL # 29,, replaced everything today cable, used known good cards still the same thing every single time,,, I even put a charger on that one cell to see if the charger agreed with the volt meter (it did the cell is perfect) never ever ever ever occured to me (till it was the last ditch effort) that it may be the far opposite negative card that was causing the trouble,, sure enough placed in a new Neg card and poof all is good. I tell ya when I am done I can wrie a book on this BMS system, and offer far better directions than Elithion. They do have a ton of good info on their site but the basics and troubleshooting just don't exist. Replacing the cards is sure going to eat into my profits thats for sure... And of course all the bad ones are my fault!! (NOT) but thats the way the game goes. Now finally move onward and upward to the next row after covering up and finalizing this bottom row,, Again cool system but lots of work

Brian


----------



## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

wooohooo done with the lower 60 here are a couple shots of the final product, need to go out and get supplies to make the cover for this layer as well as some of that clear waterproofing spray for corrosion for all the connections. So glad cell # 29 is out of my hair!!!! 

The pics of the cell boards are not all necessarily bad I will retest them on the upper level batteries, certainly some of them are bad though,, will get the final count pretty soon.

Brian


----------



## Elithion (Oct 6, 2009)

rctous said:


> I tell ya when I am done I can write a book on this BMS system, and offer far better directions than Elithion.


Great! Would you like to? The Lithiumate troubleshooting manual is in a wiki, so it would be relatively easy to set you up to contribute to it, if you'd like. It has 18 articles at this point, and I add to them on a regular basis, but if you'd like to help I would love it!
Thanks,
D'de
________
Hot penny stocks


----------



## mrbigh (Dec 31, 2008)

rctous said:


> wooohooo done with the lower 60 here are a couple shots of the final product, need to go out and get supplies to make the cover for this layer as well as some of that clear waterproofing spray for corrosion for all the connections. So glad cell # 29 is out of my hair!!!!
> 
> The pics of the cell boards are not all necessarily bad I will retest them on the upper level batteries, certainly some of them are bad though,, will get the final count pretty soon.
> 
> Brian


Is nice seen some prosperous progress, it's sort of a tedious job but it will be part of a very good EV conversion.
Hello Davide!!


----------



## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

Elithion said:


> Great! Would you like to? The Lithiumate troubleshooting manual is in a wiki, so it would be relatively easy to set you up to contribute to it, if you'd like. It has 18 articles at this point, and I add to them on a regular basis, but if you'd like to help I would love it!
> Thanks,
> D'de


Of course I would love to do that,, make it more "Laymans" terms.

let me know what I need to do.

Brian


----------



## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

Got the lower "Main" wires outside the box and the sermos connector on the neg side ready to plug into the controller. Have a pigtail out for the lead for the upper rack of batteries, this is where the fuse holder will wind up going. Also have the "winter cover" nearly ready to put on. The fram around the bottom batteries has been siliconed down in a few key areas to just keep it down,, it cannot move forward or backwards as it is groved around the angle iron mounts. This top cover will be removed in the summer and will slide out. Not much more I can do to the lower rack till the silicone dries so I think I will start on the switches for the shifter for forwad and reverse. Came up with a very cool / easy idea for that will show pics later on.

Brian


----------



## MJ Monterey (Aug 20, 2009)

rctous said:


> Came up with a very cool / easy idea for that will show pics later on.


Waiting for this important revelation!


----------



## Jan (Oct 5, 2009)

Beautiful, Brian.


----------



## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

OK got the switches mounted for forward and reverse, initially thought I would use magnetic switches, keep it simple but NO,, they wer to inconsistant and would not 100% trust them,, so this is what I came up with. Pretty slick I think, I took pics of it in Park, reverse, neutral, then drive. I will put a bolt in to stop it going any further than drive. Still need to put on a couple nuts and get alonger bolt for the pivot of the shifter so I can add a lock nut there but basically this is it. Look closely at the contact it makes on the switches?? I will polish the roundness and lube it after final install but right now it slides very nice so it can only get better. Did take a bit but I like this one!

Brian


----------



## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

MJ Monterey said:


> Waiting for this important revelation!


wait no more LOL


----------



## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

Jan said:


> Beautiful, Brian.


Thanks man!!!!!!

Brian


----------



## MJ Monterey (Aug 20, 2009)

Simple and elegant solution. I like! 

Is the spring strong enough to hold the bar down during say a pot hole or severe bump?


----------



## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

MJ Monterey said:


> Simple and elegant solution. I like!
> 
> Is the spring strong enough to hold the bar down during say a pot hole or severe bump?


yes it is, but thanks for bringing that up,,,, I will be taking out the preasure arm and lightening it up too it does not need to be so wide,, I wanted it to be thick so it makes a wider contact on the preasure switches. Bought a longer bolt and a couple lock nut , put them in and tested and its totally reliable. Should get er all wrapped up tomorrow and put the console back together. I didn't expect t his to be a 6 hour ordeal,, oh well.

Brian


----------



## MJ Monterey (Aug 20, 2009)

I think six hours is pretty good. I would have planned an entire weekend. Then again Murphy seems to be a patron saint of mine......


----------



## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

MJ Monterey said:


> I think six hours is pretty good. I would have planned an entire weekend. Then again Murphy seems to be a patron saint of mine......


Ya he is always looking over me,, had I not wasted about 2 hours trying the mag switches it would have gone quicker. 

Just trimmed the pressure lever ( in my pajamas) looks much better and got rid of at least 40% of the weight,, heck it all counts right. Should be able to get started on the upper 40 cells tomorrow, but it is NFL Sunday and we have an EV club meeting as well. The upper 40 will be fast I am sure,, then mount the charger. then, then , then, lots more thens to go still.

Brian


----------



## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

OK got it all finished in my PJ's wire is on the switches, etc. I will take a final pic tomorrow before I button it up. The lubey lube sure makes it super smooth. I am satisfied with it.

Brian


----------



## MJ Monterey (Aug 20, 2009)

Does the shifter have good detentes or position locks? 

I just had a scary vision of hitting the brakes hard and the shifter sliding into reverse.....


----------



## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

MJ Monterey said:


> Does the shifter have good detentes or position locks?
> 
> I just had a scary vision of hitting the brakes hard and the shifter sliding into reverse.....



Yes it does stays in position well,, as well I was able to tighten up the actual shifter so it is even more firm,, also the button has to be pushed to get from drive to reverse it will go to neutral but not reverse,, added bonus. I will add a stop nut so it will not go down further than drive.

Brian


----------



## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

Here are the final pics of the shifter switches and the bolt blocker so it cannot go down further than drive. 
Also "we don't nee no stinkin wire" ,,, got rid of a pretty big harness. Scary huh??

Also have the charger mounted drying, will do final install of charger later today, it worked out well and was pretty simple.

Well I'm off th our EV meeting/

Brian


----------



## MJ Monterey (Aug 20, 2009)

Progress!

Idle thought on details. Do you have backup/reverse lights figured out?

Figured I'd try to ask before you buttoned up the console.


----------



## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

MJ Monterey said:


> Progress!
> 
> Idle thought on details. Do you have backup/reverse lights figured out?
> 
> Figured I'd try to ask before you buttoned up the console.


Dude your my hero,, for some reason I just assumed the other wires around the shifter there were for reverse lights ,,but of course the trigger for reverse came from the tranny,, the wires at the shifter were for lighting and OD,, needless to say I just added another switch on the other side of the shifter (add pics tomorrow its a bit late right now) I will run those wires under the dash to a relay,, I will track down the reverse light wires from there. THANKS MAN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Brian


----------



## MJ Monterey (Aug 20, 2009)

Hey no problem Brian. Just lending a hand as best I can.......


----------



## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

MJ Monterey said:


> Hey no problem Brian. Just lending a hand as best I can.......


Well ya could be over here helping out ya know!!!

Brian


----------



## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

OK got the dc to dc converter mounted and tested it on 220vac ans so far all is fine, car nearly off life support. So starting on the wiring for the heater. First let me quickly explain how it will work. Key of car must be on ignition, blower motor must be turned on at least low position, ( this activates the 12 vdc water pump) the pics you see here is of a micro switch I added to the temperature control knob, it must also be turned to the full "HOT" position if all this is done then there is a momentary switch that will get pressed and it will activate the heating element. Any time any of the above items is not met the heater element will stop and stay off till all the above are met, and the monentary switch is pressed. It may sound complicated to just "turn on" your heater. But really the only different part is hitting the momentary switch to activate the element. This way as you are approaching home you can either shut off the blower for a second, or turn the temperature dial counter clock wise a notch and this will stop current flowing to the heating element, keeping the blower motor on will continue to circulate hot water through the system,, no sence in wasting the hot water. I need to mount an LED in this panel for a element "on" indicater. Then a few hundred more relays to make all this heater work. I will add pics of that later. This is really no different than the other two Saturns I have done with the heaters and they work perfectly.

Sort of tedious work but I kinda like it.

brian


----------



## MJ Monterey (Aug 20, 2009)

rctous said:


> Well ya could be over here helping out ya know!!!
> 
> Brian


I would if I could. It's just one of those TSD problems.

When Google maps getrs translated to exec overview English as:
Drive 100 miles north turn right
drive 1630 miles east and then make a right (at Omaha )
Drive south a hundred miles then call for directions........

Driving time 1day 8 hours.

Guess I'll just have to hang out on line and supply remote tech support.


----------



## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

MJ Monterey said:


> I would if I could. It's just one of those TSD problems.
> 
> When Google maps getrs translated to exec overview English as:
> Drive 100 miles north turn right
> ...


works for me


----------



## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

Worked on the heater switching and such, turned out pretty easy actually. I mounted a couple LED's and the momentary switch in the factory knock out that is just above the round heater knob. Tested it all (the front end) and the relays latch when it should and releases when it should. The 2 LED's are for the heater status. The green one on means the potential for the element to turn on is there. The yellow one means the actual element is on. I did this because it will be nice to see how often the element comes on in real world. The yellow LED is hooked up to the relay that activates the element. In theory the yellow LED should go on and off often as it is controlled by a 180 degree t stat, when the water hits that temp the t stat will turn off the element relay. the green LED will always be on "if" the heater has potential to operate. Never can the green LED be off if the yellow LED is on. WOW did that make any sence at all? Any how so far so good.

Brian


----------



## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

What a great day so far and it is not over yet. I got the AC finalized and 100% buttoned up just needs to charged ( think I will wait till summer for that though) Got the Vaccumm system 100% done for the brake system,, got the Heater wiring all sorted and the dash almost back together, need the relay for the charger , thats a problem,, need a DPDT 220 vac with 12 vdc coil. My supplier of the BMS has left it to me to get it myself, even though I already paid for it 40 days ago or so. ( not EV components by the way) thats a bummer as this relay gets the signal out from the BMS to take power away from the charger to stop the charge. He has sent me many relays but are all single pole, that will just get rid of one leg and the charger will still function in 110VAC mode, Hope to resolve this quickly as I need it befor the final charger mount,,,, not happy!!!!!!!!

Came in to build a battery pack for the power steering pump,, it is a cool battery pack as you can see but it is not to back up the car rather to back up the power steering. If the power steering will draw 80 amps the 55 amp dc to dc will be overwhelmed so this will help "take the load off" the converter. It will not be wired to the dc to dc directly but through a relay and it will only be active to the pump when ign is on and if customer has the power steering switch on. He wanted to be able to shut it off.

By the way these are 10AH ,,, 15 C LifePo4 cells.


----------



## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

found the relay!!!! Digi key
http://www.digikey.com/scripts/DkSearch/dksus.dll?Detail&name=PB349-ND

Brian


----------



## gdirwin (Apr 7, 2009)

rctous said:


> Came in to build a battery pack for the power steering pump,, it is a cool battery pack as you can see but it is not to back up the car rather to back up the power steering. If the power steering will draw 80 amps the 55 amp dc to dc will be overwhelmed so this will help "take the load off" the converter. It will not be wired to the dc to dc directly but through a relay and it will only be active to the pump when ign is on and if customer has the power steering switch on. He wanted to be able to shut it off.
> 
> By the way these are 10AH ,,, 15 C LifePo4 cells.


I am trying to understand why a separate P/S battery is required... Does your build have a 12V battery? If you draw more than 55A from the 12V connection, then the voltage of the 12V system would start to lower (as the main 12V battery discharged)... If you tossed the bigger ICE 12V battery and replaced it with something very minimal (ie enough to close a few relays) then more 12V battery capacity is required - but why not just upgrade your 12V battery (ie why a separate P/S battery)?


----------



## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

rctous said:


> By the way these are 10AH ,,, 15 C LifePo4 cells.


Headways I assume? What was the price per cell?


----------



## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

JRP3 said:


> Headways I assume? What was the price per cell?


yes thats them alright paid about 13 bucks each for them

Brian


----------



## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

gdirwin said:


> I am trying to understand why a separate P/S battery is required... Does your build have a 12V battery? If you draw more than 55A from the 12V connection, then the voltage of the 12V system would start to lower (as the main 12V battery discharged)... If you tossed the bigger ICE 12V battery and replaced it with something very minimal (ie enough to close a few relays) then more 12V battery capacity is required - but why not just upgrade your 12V battery (ie why a separate P/S battery)?


there is no 12 vdc battery dc to dc converter is on 100% of the time. 

Don't really see the purpose for a 12 volt battery,, also don't see the need to buy a 150 dollar contacter to turn on the DC to DC,, the draw is very minimal on the dc to dc.

Keeps it all simple,, I think.

Brian


----------



## MJ Monterey (Aug 20, 2009)

Brian,

Just trying to go down the list of things that are normally on always hot circuits in cars that are nice to have.....

Are you going to use the mini pack to keep the stereo presets/settings?

Will you have a remote entry/security/anti theft system (dobermans do not count)?

I am unsure of regs/inspections in your area but some states require stop lights and emergency flashers to be always hot.

Would it be appropriate to have a small LED light for entry/exit?

Will the mini pack recharge off the main/dc -dc when capacity is available?

Keep it simple is a great philosophy. My variation is keep it as simple as practical/legal.

Jack


----------



## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

MJ Monterey said:


> Brian,
> 
> Just trying to go down the list of things that are normally on always hot circuits in cars that are nice to have.....
> 
> ...


Yes it has security system, remember there is 12 volts on from the dc to dc

I imagine it would flash the hazards for many many hours


----------



## MJ Monterey (Aug 20, 2009)

Oops missed the always on part for the converter.......

Nevermind, continue on with the great build!


----------



## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

MJ Monterey said:


> Oops missed the always on part for the converter.......
> 
> Nevermind, continue on with the great build!



Hey glad your on it I should have the top 40 cells installed tomorrow and who knows motor turning in a day or two??? Still need the wiring diagram for the "black box" that EV components made me. I will send Travis an e-mail next

Brian


----------



## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

Got the top heaters wired up and the top 40 installed now to add the sides and get them mounted permanately. Ordered some abs plastic and need to wait like 3-4 more hours befor I can go pick it up ,, that bites but I do have enough for one side, which is where I will mont the fuse holder for the traction pack. Hope to at least get them all mounted today,, wiring should go much faster now that I have a clue. Then to see just how many of my BMS cards are bad. Oh well.!!

brian


----------



## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

Well they never called to tell me the plastic has been cut but thats OK I found I had plenty to do like get all the wiring ready for the heater , brake pumps, charger etc. So I have all that nearly 100% just need to finish the heater wiring, but that I can do after the top 40 are installed. The fuse holders in the pics are for the heater element, of course not complete just yet but mounted in a nice spot ( I think) need to insulate the heck out of them of course. Pretty much calling it a day still got lots doone, all this tedious stuff takes some time ya know,,,, but SO CLOSE !!!!!!!

Brian


----------



## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

Quick up date as I am working on the "Alectric" car, ( owners name is Al) any way got the fuse holder mounted as you can see and the top 40 are in and secured, now it gets easy from here,,we strapping the batteries together that is,,, lets see how many bad BMS cards I really have. Will know soon.

Brian


----------



## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

wiring all the BMS boards,,and testing the ones I thought were bad so far are turning out OK there are 2 confirmed DEAD so far and I have 20 cells left to go. Fortunately I got 2 mid board spares but I suspect I will have a bad NEG or Pos board that I will need,, that will not stop me from charging or trying to get the motor to spin this week end, Done for now its dinner time. May go back out later to finish the final 20,,,, Then again I may not,, I will keep ya posted.

Brian


----------



## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

Went out put on another 10 cards haven't tested yet to see whats good or not but the dead card count should only be a total of 4, I hope. will know more tomorrow. Got the black box diagram tonight from Travis and its suprisingly simple,, whewwww,,,,

Also Christmas came q bit early for me,, my wonderful wife got me the side box for my tool box,, she had to order it a few weeks ago and was due to be here the 24th but it showed up early,, so I spent the last 1/2 hour putting it on. I really like this Craftsman SS box. I used to be a huge Snap On freak but with kids and bills,,, well you know how that is.. Any way its a pretty darn cool tool box so I thought I'd share.

Brian


----------



## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

Been a GREAT day so far,, total bad BMS boards 2,, I can definately live with that. So I do not have cell boards on cells #1 and 2 programmed the BMS to tell it it has 98 cells and all 98 cells reporting for active duty. Time to add the jumpers to get full voltage (SCARY) and hook up the charger and charge these puppies up,, of course I will need to keep an eye on cells 1 and 2 as they have no balancer or card but no big deal. Got to give huge KUDOS to Richard from www.alliancerenewableenergy.com unbelievable customer service from this guy. This is where I bought the BMS system from, not only is he knowledable on the system he has talked me through two very minor issues today on the phone and is sending me out the 2 BMS boards today priority mail. Richard THANKS A MILLION!!!!!!!!!!!

More to follow

Brian


----------



## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

Alright we are officially in tyhe SCARE zone now,,, got my 330vdc circuit happening now. Notice the jumper fuse holder set up, I figure that would blow up pretty fast if it had too,, I will svae the 200 amp fuse for later,, I am going to start off with a small fuse holder and a 20 amp fuse for a while.

Tackle the charger next,, the stupid AC relay did not show up yesturday like it should have so now its delivery is not till monday,, oh well can still get most of this car done!!!

Brian


----------



## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

OK so now I am ready for the charger. had to get the final wiring done on the heater realy which is mounted under the charger in a plastic box. Turns out I have a bad LED that was the "element on" LED,, it works most of the time but not all of the time. I trouble shot the wiring right up to the LED with a standard 12vdc test light and the circuit then worked 100% of time. So I will do that tomorrow, by then my shaking should be over. This high voltage is scary man. I have all power off where it can be of course but its still a bit nerve racking. Any way think I am done for the night so I can watch football.

See ya tomorrow

Brian


----------



## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

Well I couldn't wait till morning so tonight after watching Dallas kick some NO butt I decided to hook up the charger. Watching the game I knew there was not really much to hook up. SO I made a temporary 20 amp fuse with Gator clips to complete the 320 vdc circuit. Shaking I clipped it to the wire sort of fast just to touch it and make contact, after no huge sparks I made the connection. First thing I noticed was the the vaccumm pump started, a little confused so I disconnected the 320 vdc looked at the relay for the pumps and duhhh I had 30 hooked to 87 a instead of 87. Switched that over then hooked up the 320vdc again and no pump (thats good) so I hooked 12vdc to power up the car, turned on the ignition and the pumps came on, I let them run and the vac switch kicked in and shut them off,, so thats great I was wondering if using the 2 -136 vdc pumps wired in series would handle 320 vdc ( and more) and they handle it very well.

So at this point I rigged the AC power cord from the charger into an extension cord at 120 vac , plugged it in and IT WORKS!!!!!! Like a charm,, plugged in the BMS to monitor cells and all looks just great. I charged for about 20 minutes and shut it all down. Lots of parameters to look at on the BMS but I have the basics set up. Tomorrow I will test the DC to DC to see how it handles the voltage. All I need to do is add a fuse to it. That will cause a spark for sure. ANy how I am testing a little 12 vdc "wall wart" tonight in the house to see how hot it gets running all night long running 2 relay coils. It is staying warm but thats all. This is to supply 12vdc to the BMS while charging and to the AC relay to open it when the bms tells it to shut off the charger. HUGE milestone did I mention HUGE!!!! Tomorrow time to turn them wheels,,, perhaps video???

Any way I will sleep well tonight!!

Brian


----------



## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

Well another partial miles stone,, I GOT THE MOTOR TURNING!!!!!! I say partial because its not quite right. The pot need to be adjusted (not sure if I can adjust it) and it doesn't seem to reverse??? Possibly all due to the pot. I will take the pot out later mabey tonight to see if its adjustable. Also the aircompressor bely stayed on so I need to hook the driveshaft up to offer the motor a LOAD. I did not do too much testing without a load on the motor, but I did program it to only go max 1000 rpm. 

More headway but also more trouble shooting. Still getting closer!!!

PS charged the pack on 220 vac today,, the charger puts out 15.35 amps WOW!!!

Brian


----------



## wenowhavepower (Dec 24, 2008)

Congratulation Brian!
Can't wait until I experience the same feeling! (hopefully before or during this summer).
I have the AC 42+gearbox and DMOC445, just missing everything else!

How much $$ have you spent so far?


----------



## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

rctous said:


> wiring all the BMS boards,,and testing the ones I thought were bad so far are turning out OK there are 2 confirmed DEAD so far and I have 20 cells left to go. Fortunately I got 2 mid board spares but I suspect I will have a bad NEG or Pos board that I will need,, that will not stop me from charging or trying to get the motor to spin this week end, Done for now its dinner time. May go back out later to finish the final 20,,,, Then again I may not,, I will keep ya posted.
> 
> Brian





wenowhavepower said:


> Congratulation Brian!
> Can't wait until I experience the same feeling! (hopefully before or during this summer).
> I have the AC 42+gearbox and DMOC445, just missing everything else!
> 
> How much $$ have you spent so far?


Ya it does feel good but need to work out the bugs got reverse working just fine but forward is a it ODD, need to ask some more questions.

The total cost with labor will be 30-35K

Brian


----------



## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

not sure if any one here has much experience with these AC 55 set ups but here is whats going on. Reverse with the wheels in the air works well starts in the correct direction and seems great. Put it into forward and it wants to start by going in reverse if you sort of accelerate faster it will switch directions and go forward. Its just sort of jerky at initial start up. I have the regen disabled during these tests. (regen on will make the motor reverse itself when ya let off the gas pedal) this is normal. The three wires on the pot can only be connected so many ways and I am sure I now have them correctly. I am able to view all the parameters on the computer with or with out spinning the motor. Need to get past this last BUG then its home free, the last of the BMS wiring and interfacing it to the AC 55 should be fast and easy.

Any suggestions would be great.

PS been talking to Travis quite a bit today ( THANKS TRAVIS) but it got late so I haven't spoke to him lately.

Thanks

Brian


----------



## _GonZo_ (Mar 23, 2009)

You work fast man.

Do you work on this project full time or just spare time?


----------



## wenowhavepower (Dec 24, 2008)

rctous said:


> PS been talking to Travis quite a bit today ( THANKS TRAVIS) but it got late so I haven't spoke to him lately.


Travis is great! Haven't talk to him much lately but when I did, he was very very helpful! Will probably be speaking to him more once my conversion gets going.


----------



## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

Ok left the motor alone for awile and managed to get the plug in ready. The switch is for 110VAC for the battery heaters it is a lighted switch so when lit the battery warmers are on. This turned out pretty slick.

Brian


----------



## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

more progress so far today , I have the plug ( a 30 amp twist lock plug) mounted into the car, ya can see the light is on but that is only for the heater, also a quick flip of the switch will also test that you have AC voltage going into the car. I also got the AC charger switcher done, just need to solder the charger wires into it. I took apart a "Wall wart" 12 vdc power supply and mounted it in the switch box. This supplies 12vdc to the BMS while charging (it turns on the bms) Then I will set the HLIM on the BMS to send a 12vdc signal to shut off the AC supply going to the charger so it will balance and not overcharge, when voltage gets lower the bms stops the 12vdc signal to the AC charger relay and it powers back on again to what ever parameters I set it to. Pretty fun stuff here. More later!!!!!!

Brian


----------



## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

Spent the last couple days balancing the cells and making sure the charger circuit works,, all is good but still need to do more configuring to the BMS to get it all dialed in just right. 100 cells is a lot to balance but it will do it and do it well. Today just ran the wiring to the fan for the AC radiator. Also got a 10" fan in the mail today for the main AC motor. I epoxied a 120 degree t stat to the motor to control the fan for cooling. Just need to mount and wire it up then drop the car back to the ground. Will still need to rais the rear off the ground for motor testing but it will be a huge accomplishment to get it on the ground. Was trying to get it on the ground today but some holiday is near and its FAMILY time today and tomorrow. 

Will keep ya all posted. 

MERRY CHRISTMAS!!!!

Brian


----------



## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

_GonZo_ said:


> You work fast man.
> 
> Do you work on this project full time or just spare time?


spare time primarily I work full time with my company RC TOYS inc

we sell battery packs and stuff


Brian


----------



## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

well attempted a test drive last night and didn't get out of the drive way. NO POWER well not enough to move the car hardley. We got about 30 feet out of the garage and wound up pushing it back in in the 10 degree weather. I have a LED overvoltage fault on the controller. I thought at first it was just for like the LED light indicators but NO it is an error for the power output of the controller. Not to sure yet what the deal is , contacted Travis last night and this AM and chatted ,,, he is not to sure. He is looking into it. I also sent an e-mail to Solectria to hope to get some ideas for Monday. I see a service sticker on the controller that says is has been calibrated to 340 vdc in 2002,, not to sure what that means yet. I hope its a programmable deals as removing the controller will surley SUCK if I need to do that.

Tested all systems and all work great even the heater (that was my biggest concern) it is a heater for sure not a warmer. Pretty much done but can't do much till I resolve the LED fault... Any one have any clues please chime in?

Brian


----------



## SolarJ (Sep 12, 2009)

Brian what is your measured pack voltage just after the charge? The max for the controller is 370VDC. But its configurable to a lower number. I bet its configured to 340VDC. You can look at this setting with the computer connection to the controller. Do you have the communications manual for the UMOC? If not I can send it to you. Or you can reduce your pack voltage by 2 cells at a time. I was thinking about running only 96-98 cells in this configuration since the charge or regen mode could kick you over the max 370V

-Jim


----------



## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

SolarJ said:


> Brian what is your measured pack voltage just after the charge? The max for the controller is 370VDC. But its configurable to a lower number. I bet its configured to 340VDC. You can look at this setting with the computer connection to the controller. Do you have the communications manual for the UMOC? If not I can send it to you. Or you can reduce your pack voltage by 2 cells at a time. I was thinking about running only 96-98 cells in this configuration since the charge or regen mode could kick you over the max 370V
> 
> -Jim


The max after charger voltage is 365,, settles to about 340 vdc

if the setting I am thinking you are talking about it is set for 365 but this was set by me, right now the com setting through the computer shows the pack voltage at 339.4 vdc. There is a sticker on the side ( from service or something) that looks like it reads "calibrated to 340vdc" so did they calibrate it in a way that I cannot change it??? And is 340 vdc max then?? There is no good way for me to drop cells,, charger would have to come out etc. Hech man this controller is capable of 400 vdc,,, it will let me change the max voltage in the "parameters " screen to 370 vdc but no higher. I thought that was odd. I did think of trying to temporarily by pass a couple cells just to test but I have the pack niceley balanced and would hate to restart the balance process again but to find ot it may be worth it or try to run the pack down a few volts, ,that also will take for ever

Brian


----------



## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

Also from what I read on regen it should not charge more than what the max voltage is set for in the parameters screen,, again I have that set for 365 vdc.

I have the 160 page manual for it is that what your talking about????

Brian


----------



## SolarJ (Sep 12, 2009)

Yea thats the service manual, sounds like you have already looked at those com settings and your values look ok to me as well. You should be within specs. Did you have to change that max input VDC from 340 on the com?

Thanks, Jim


----------



## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

SolarJ said:


> Yea thats the service manual, sounds like you have already looked at those com settings and your values look ok to me as well. You should be within specs. Did you have to change that max input VDC from 240 on the com?
> 
> Thanks, Jim


yes I set it up to 365vdc and it took it just fine but the fact that the sticker is on the side lets me think that there is something else that is done at the factory level. Just for giggles I just by passed 4 cells and looked at it through the com and it still shows that LED overvolt error.( with 326 vdc) At first power up it just says LEDpwr, If I then turn the key off then back on the error goes to LED pwr overvolt??????????????????? Any other ideas??

Brian


----------



## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

here is a pic of the stickers on the side of the controller

WHAT is BCV??? 1.10 (on the bottom sticker)

Brian


----------



## SolarJ (Sep 12, 2009)

Just for kicks what is your 12V supply reading? It should be between 13.7-14.2 but the manual says 11-16. You could also try getting you main battery pack down to 312V to see if it goes away. You could also kick on your heater to lower the voltage for testing purpose.

One more thing is the manual states that after a charge it runs at lower power for about 5 sec. But it sounds like yours just quit.

My stickers have the same values and Im not sure what the BCV is. I have been unable to test mine since EV components has not sent me the pot box as of yet.

Jim


----------



## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

SolarJ said:


> Just for kicks what is your 12V supply reading? It should be between 13.7-14.2 but the manual says 11-16. You could also try getting you main battery pack down to 312V to see if it goes away. You could also kick on your heater to lower the voltage for testing purpose.
> 
> One more thing is the manual states that after a charge it runs at lower power for about 5 sec. But it sounds like yours just quit.
> 
> ...


My 12 vdc supply is 13.9 with the dome lights on I can and probably will crank it up to maybe 14.3 or so but I don't think this is of any issue. The pot box I got from them was the entire gas pedal,, a very nice one I might add. I hope to talk to Solen tomorrow for some advice,, I will let you know. Not to many people left with too much experience with these controllers.

Brian


----------



## SolarJ (Sep 12, 2009)

Brian, is that DC/DC converter isolated? Its not one that I am familiar with. If it its not try disconnecting it and running only off the 12V batteries for a test. It needs to be isolated since its getting the power from the main pack.

Thanks, Jim


----------



## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

Wel pretty good news today!!!!!!!!!! I actually went for a 4 mile test drive in the car!!!!!! It appears that the Sermos connection to the controller was not making perfect contact. All I did was plug it in and out a few times and poof got some power. Made 20 or so test runs in the garage before going into the drive way,, then another 10 test runs to see if I could get back into the garage,, then finally off into the street. There is some issue with it limiting power though,, it will not do more than 64.9 amps which makes for some pretty slow acceleration and a top speed of about 35 mph. We sort of having a blizard like storm right now,, (I test drove before this blew in of course) so I have left it alone. I was just happy to go for a drive PERIOD. So things are looking up for now, I will investigate the current limit later after we survive the storm.

Could be pot??? I am getting 5K though when floored looked at all the settings in the UMOC and all look good,, oh well I am sure I will hunt it out!!!!

Brian


----------



## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

SolarJ said:


> Brian, is that DC/DC converter isolated? Its not one that I am familiar with. If it its not try disconnecting it and running only off the 12V batteries for a test. It needs to be isolated since its getting the power from the main pack.
> 
> Thanks, Jim



Yes Jim it is isolated.


----------



## SolarJ (Sep 12, 2009)

Nice Brian! Is that with all your 100 of your cells?


----------



## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

SolarJ said:


> Nice Brian! Is that with all your 100 of your cells?


yes all 100 cells


----------



## SolarJ (Sep 12, 2009)

What is your pack voltage at 64 A?


----------



## MJ Monterey (Aug 20, 2009)

There is a blizzard. How with the warmth of your EV grin!

Congrats on the progress......

MJ


----------



## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

SolarJ said:


> What is your pack voltage at 64 A?


still about 330vdc

Brian


----------



## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

330 x 64 = 21120watts or 21.1kw.

What is the constant rating of the controller?


----------



## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

david85 said:


> 330 x 64 = 21120watts or 21.1kw.
> 
> What is the constant rating of the controller?


55kw

350 amps max

but during initial acceleration thats when I need the 55kw at least for a couple seconds,, almost feels like the gas pedal needs to be pressed further,, been so cold , nasty and snowy here , kids getting out of school for snow days, cars parked in the garage etc just not the best week to work on it. I don't want to risk going on a test drive and having an issue and need to tow it home. This just ain't the weather for that right now. It is hard to try to test the controller for high current without driving it. Next week looks like it will be in the 30's,,,, a heat wave for sure.
Brian


----------



## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

....and 55kw should be the constant rating.

other than a pot box that isn't working properly, all I can suggest is call Azure up and ask if they can help.


----------



## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

Well I think I may have the lack of power issue solved by tweaking the parameters on the controller but its to darn cold to go for a trip so instead today I resolved the spedo and odometer problem. Pretty simple but took a few hours to accomplish. Works like a charm. Not to worried about the tach,, pretty unnecessary in this application. So let the silicone dry tonight and put the dash back in tomorrow.


----------



## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

david85 said:


> ....and 55kw should be the constant rating.
> 
> other than a pot box that isn't working properly, all I can suggest is call Azure up and ask if they can help.


yes I believe 55kw is continuous,, also made some adjustments to the pot box today as well. I think it may be ready for another test drive ( when the temp gets above 20 or so.)

Brian


----------



## Grant_NZ (May 28, 2008)

Very nice, did the screen come wtih?


----------



## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

Grant_NZ said:


> Very nice, did the screen come wtih?


yes it is just a Garmin GPS unit. So now he has a very accurate speedo and a GPS as well. Pretty cheap too at 119.99,,, Way cheaper than any other way ( if you include your time)

https://buy.garmin.com/shop/shop.do?cID=134&pID=13432

Brian


----------



## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Interesting idea, though I've had times when my Garmin would take a while to provide any data until it found the satellites. Sometimes I have to turn it off and restart it to get it to lock on.


----------



## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

JRP3 said:


> Interesting idea, though I've had times when my Garmin would take a while to provide any data until it found the satellites. Sometimes I have to turn it off and restart it to get it to lock on.


is it a newer one??? They claim they have gotten better. Besides if it takes a minute or two its not the end of the world ( I don't think).

I notice with this one it seems to get connected pretty fast.

Brian


----------



## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

It's last years Nuvi 760, I think. Mostly happens in an area with a lot of trees or buildings, and it doesn't happen very often.


----------



## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

JRP3 said:


> It's last years Nuvi 760, I think. Mostly happens in an area with a lot of trees or buildings, and it doesn't happen very often.


thats good to hear,, I think it will be pretty cool 

Brian


----------



## Grant_NZ (May 28, 2008)

Thats it is cheap, can you alter it to display battery pack DOD etc?


----------



## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

Grant_NZ said:


> Thats it is cheap, can you alter it to display battery pack DOD etc?


yes totally functions as normal, still runs on back up battery. I will wire it into the accessory position of the key.

Can it be altered??? I guess if you know what your doing anything is possible. Thats out of my knowledge level. But at the heart of it, it is a LCD touchscreen, I suppose it can be removed from the unit and re programmed??? Not to sure.

We will have another touch screen later that will have all those functions, that will be mounted where the stock radio is,, thats why I added a new stereo to the lower part of the dash. Still a month or so away on that though

Brian


----------



## tomofreno (Mar 3, 2009)

Brian, this is regarding your cabin heater: 


> The water pump I have is super high volume ( of course I cant find the specs right now but when I tested it it shot a good stream out. The problem is it is noisy so I will need to mont it to a rubber mount of some sort. All tested great had the pressure relief valve leaking again. Replaced it with a new one and its fine now, AS for cost I spent about 100 bucks just at the hardware store for pipe fitting hose , clamps, element, etc. Water pump was about 40 bucks, the t stat was like 25 bucks and the PRV was like 6-7 bucks. Need a 60 dollar relay and some other misc relays switches ets.


I went to HD and Lowes and found 120VAC (I have a 115V pack) 1500W heaters at both, plus 2000W at HD. You mentioned you used a 120VAC heater in the past. What power and how did it perform? I thought if necessary I could parallel two heater assemblies with a solenoid valve to cut flow to one (cut power to the heater at the same time) for lower power consumption when it is not so cold. Cost more though. 

The t stats I found were max 150F, I thought you said yours was 180F, if so where did you find it?

The pressure relief valves are all 150 psi, I think my heater core will burst before that. Where did you find a lower pressure relief valve?

It was around 38F today and the ceramic heater kept the cabin comfortable. Even heated it back up after sitting for a couple hours in the fog. I guess they work acceptably for folks in CA.


----------



## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

what a great day for the EV,, had to replace the heater element after changing it to an open system with a reservoir no big deal, slapped the dash together installed the new dash with the new speedo and took off for a ride., got about 300 yards when the hood decided to pop open on me pulled over and had a tie strap to hold it down,, again no biggy. Today was or monthly EV club meeting so I called the owner of the car and asked if he wanted a ride in his KIA,,, of course he did, so I went to pick him up and off to the meeting we went. Put on a total of 13 miles and used the heater alot,, heater draws 8000 watts by the way, so it is a heater not a warmer. Car performed flawlessly got up to about 50 mph in a 36 mph zone, power is very smooth,, a bit weak in the first 5 mph but then goes with authority,, I am sure there is a parameter setting for the initial take off. NOW the EV GRIN!!!!!!!!! Still needs some tweeking and details to finish but YYYYEEEEEEE HHHHAAAAAAWWWW very excited all is working as it should.

Brian

PS the owner is very happy and excited!!!


----------



## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

tomofreno said:


> Brian, this is regarding your cabin heater:
> I went to HD and Lowes and found 120VAC (I have a 115V pack) 1500W heaters at both, plus 2000W at HD. You mentioned you used a 120VAC heater in the past. What power and how did it perform? I thought if necessary I could parallel two heater assemblies with a solenoid valve to cut flow to one (cut power to the heater at the same time) for lower power consumption when it is not so cold. Cost more though.
> 
> The t stats I found were max 150F, I thought you said yours was 180F, if so where did you find it?
> ...


 I gave up on sealed systems and will never do another on, I got the PRV from http://www.surpluscenter.com/item.asp?UID=2156011021173280&item=4-1460&catname=

would not recommend though as 70% of the ones I have used leak,, just a drip but leak an open system is so much better in so many ways,

here are several options for your t stat http://www.jegs.com/webapp/wcs/stor...al&Dx=mode+matchallpartial&Ntt=fan+thermostat

the 120 vac elements I have used on my last two systems ran on 144 vdc traction pack and draws about 3000-3500 watts very nice 12 vdc fuel pumps work great for the circulation mode.

Brian

If ya want more info let me know


----------



## tomofreno (Mar 3, 2009)

Got a photo of your reservoir? Volume/material? What made you give up on sealed systems too much pressure/leaks?


----------



## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

tomofreno said:


> Got a photo of your reservoir? Volume/material? What made you give up on sealed systems too much pressure/leaks?



only the PRV ever leaked. I do have one system in my own EV that has a sealed system and works perfectly. There is really never any presure a couple pounds mabey. I will add the pic I took today of the reservoir while I was "burping" the system.

the open system is just safer and so easy,, you can always sleep at night this way.

Brian


----------



## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Here is a 30 psi boiler valve: http://www.idealtruevalue.com/servlet/the-2646/Detail


----------



## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

JRP3 said:


> Here is a 30 psi boiler valve: http://www.idealtruevalue.com/servlet/the-2646/Detail


I think 30 PSI is too high,,, the heater core may blow up under that presure??? Most radiator caps vent at 13-16 PSI.

the core may be OK at 30 PSI I do not know for sure


----------



## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Yes it's a bit on the high side but my guess is still well below the burst pressure of the system. However I think I'd use a remote radiator fill cap such as this:
http://www.siliconeintakes.com/product_info.php?products_id=1064


----------



## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

JRP3 said:


> Yes it's a bit on the high side but my guess is still well below the burst pressure of the system. However I think I'd use a remote radiator fill cap such as this:
> http://www.siliconeintakes.com/product_info.php?products_id=1064


but still if there is ever any evaporation or leakage with a sealed system eventually the element will be be submursed in water and will fail.. It takes about 3 seconds to self destruct. With an open system it draws(sucks) water into the system as needed and you always have a visual on the fluid level. If the presure valve is ever activated it is highly likely that the element has burned itself out.

Brian


----------



## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

You'd have to lose a lot of fluid to expose the element, at least in my system, as the heater is at the lowest point. You could use the overflow tube in the remote cap and put it in an overflow tank for a radiator and it should work the same way. Excess pressure would vent into the tank and then be sucked back in when it cooled down. I really don't expect any evaporation from a sealed system running low pressure though. I can go years without topping off the cooling system in an ICE. Might be worth putting a section of clear hose in the system to have a quick visual check.


----------



## tomofreno (Mar 3, 2009)

> You could use the overflow tube in the remote cap and put it in an overflow tank for a radiator and it should work the same way.


 Seems it should. I'm confused Brian...looks like you have a sealed tank feeding fluid to the heater assembly...how is this "open"? I'm missing something. 

A small sealed metal tank would be good for me since I could insert two or three heaters into it from the bottom and control heating by the number that are on. Seems a sealed tank like this with the remote filler cap on it and a small radiator overflow tank would work well, no? Do you plan to insulate your system Brian? That 8kW is about the power required to move my car at 45mph, would put a serious crimp on range!


----------



## tomofreno (Mar 3, 2009)

> A small sealed metal tank would be good for me since I could insert two or three heaters into it


 I guess a cheaper way to do this is just use one piece of pipe and insert heaters in each end of it through tees. Fluid would enter through the tee at one end and exit at the tee at the other end. One heater off would give half power. The 120VAC 1500W heaters are only about 5" long so wouldn't require that long of pipe, and 3kW is about 3x what I have now, so probably would be good enough for down to the low 20's F. This, a t stat, and remote filler cap and overflow tank should do it no? No need for a prv with the remote filler cap it seems.


----------



## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

JRP3 said:


> You'd have to lose a lot of fluid to expose the element, at least in my system, as the heater is at the lowest point. You could use the overflow tube in the remote cap and put it in an overflow tank for a radiator and it should work the same way. Excess pressure would vent into the tank and then be sucked back in when it cooled down. I really don't expect any evaporation from a sealed system running low pressure though. I can go years without topping off the cooling system in an ICE. Might be worth putting a section of clear hose in the system to have a quick visual check.


that is exactly what I have done,,, exactly

Brian


----------



## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

tomofreno said:


> I guess a cheaper way to do this is just use one piece of pipe and insert heaters in each end of it through tees. Fluid would enter through the tee at one end and exit at the tee at the other end. One heater off would give half power. The 120VAC 1500W heaters are only about 5" long so wouldn't require that long of pipe, and 3kW is about 3x what I have now, so probably would be good enough for down to the low 20's F. This, a t stat, and remote filler cap and overflow tank should do it no? No need for a prv with the remote filler cap it seems.


yes one element should be plenty and yes short pipe is best just get a good pump. Fuel pumps are quiet some other I have experimented with are noisy.

Brian

t-stats are availiable in any range ( although I think 180 is a good temp) I will see if I can find the link,, I got a 120 degree one for the fan to cool the AC motor. They can just be surface mounted to your pipe with epoxy (that high temp thick squish it to mix it stuff)


----------



## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

Been driving the car a round a bit trying to get a few cycles on the bats. Stopped at my local Kia dealer and it was a real frenzy,, I pulled it into their shop and they even anounced on the PA that if any one wanted to see an electric Sorento come intot he shop ,,, many showed up in total disbelief!!! It was cool.

Having some fault issues with the BMS I need to sort through plus I think I blew up the heater element (again) not to sure why yet but will look at it later. Been sick the last couple days so haven't done too much but there isn't too much to do.

Charger finally kicks off by itself so all cells seam to be charging/ balancing nicely. Regen is awesome heck ya never need to use the brakes at all its all in the gas pedal. And it sure adds a charge to the pack fast ,, I have it set at 100 amps and I see the voltage go from like 320 while cruising to 342 and more depending on how long regen is on. Its cool. Power steering works great , them little MR 2 pumps are just awesome!!! Will keep ya all updated as time goes on. 

Has pretty slow take off till about 5mph then goes well,, need to work on that still.

Brian


----------



## SolarJ (Sep 12, 2009)

Congrads Brian! So was your top speed 50? How many Amps was is drawing at that speed?


----------



## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

SolarJ said:


> Congrads Brian! So was your top speed 50? How many Amps was is drawing at that speed?


no it had more to go

reading amp draw is another issue I am having so I do not know.. Voltage was goos so I was not worried that I was over amping,,,, plus the hood is still bungy corded down and started to lift at 50 mph

Brian


----------



## gdirwin (Apr 7, 2009)

rctous said:


> Power steering works great , them little MR 2 pumps are just awesome!!!
> Brian


Congratulations Brian - I am jealous of the speed at which you have been working on this car...

Quick question - did you use the fancy Toyota Type EH power steering fluid (recommended for the MR2) or did you just use normal PS Dexron III fluid (as is used by all other Toyotas etc...)?


----------



## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

gdirwin said:


> Congratulations Brian - I am jealous of the speed at which you have been working on this car...
> 
> Quick question - did you use the fancy Toyota Type EH power steering fluid (recommended for the MR2) or did you just use normal PS Dexron III fluid (as is used by all other Toyotas etc...)?


I did ask that question when I bought the fluid and they said the dextron 3 would be fine, so thats what I used,, seems to be just fine


Brian


----------



## dtbaker (Jan 5, 2008)

rctous said:


> heater draws 8000 watts by the way, so it is a heater not a warmer.


I went back a couple pages looking for a summary of the heating system, but had trouble finding it all in one place.... can you summarize what you've ended up with? Any nice pix on a build site somewhere rather than sprinkled thru the thread?

My 1500 watt element does clear the windshield, but not enough to keep the wife happy on cold mornings.


----------



## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

dtbaker said:


> I went back a couple pages looking for a summary of the heating system, but had trouble finding it all in one place.... can you summarize what you've ended up with? Any nice pix on a build site somewhere rather than sprinkled thru the thread?
> 
> My 1500 watt element does clear the windshield, but not enough to keep the wife happy on cold mornings.


look here there may be more details other wise let me know

http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forum...s-ev-conversion-3-another-saturn-29343p6.html


post #60

Brian


----------



## gdirwin (Apr 7, 2009)

rctous said:


> I did ask that question when I bought the fluid and they said the dextron 3 would be fine, so thats what I used,, seems to be just fine
> 
> 
> Brian


I made a new thread on MR2 power steering fluid:
http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showthread.php?p=161495#post161495


----------



## buckshot (Oct 25, 2009)

Brian,

How about you put a heater like this in my Solectria since you have finished Al's car? 

Don


----------



## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

buckshot said:


> Brian,
> 
> How about you put a heater like this in my Solectria since you have finished Al's car?
> 
> Don


love to BUT I haven't finished Als car yet still some issues to work through... Nice to see ya on here though!!!!!


Brian


----------



## tomofreno (Mar 3, 2009)

Brian, how is your controller interfaced to the brake lights?


----------



## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

tomofreno said:


> Brian, how is your controller interfaced to the brake lights?


it is part of the wiring of the controller,, a couple wires went to ground, the actual brake lite trigger wire sends a "neg" when regen is on. That wire went to a relay to make it a positve trigger then to the brake lite. There is a switch in the car as well that turns off regen,, wet or slick conditions you want it off thats for sure.

Brian


----------



## tomofreno (Mar 3, 2009)

> There is a switch in the car as well that turns off regen,, wet or slick conditions you want it off thats for sure.


 I've driven on packed snow/ice with regen with no problems. I would guess it depends on how aggressive you have it set. Large changes in momentum in such conditions are to be avoided of course.


----------



## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

tomofreno said:


> I've driven on packed snow/ice with regen with no problems. I would guess it depends on how aggressive you have it set. Large changes in momentum in such conditions are to be avoided of course.


and there is a simple switch I have to turn off regen,, definately want it off of conditions are "slick"

Brian


----------



## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

I am having some issues with the current sensor that is an inductive sensor,, as I was trouble shooting last week I burned up a positive end board on the BMS. A new on just showed up so I hope to move forward instead of backwards. Still need to tweek the controller while driving weather here is just to cold for that kind of stuff right now.

Brian


----------



## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

Here are a couple shots of the front end of the car with the bumper that was done up by the customer. It looks pretty darn cool I think


----------



## tomofreno (Mar 3, 2009)

Brian,

What relay/contactor did you use to supply power to your cabin heater?


----------



## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

tomofreno said:


> Brian,
> 
> What relay/contactor did you use to supply power to your cabin heater?


I got it from KTA

there web on line store is down so I cannot post a link I will try again later


----------



## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

here is th erelay I used

http://store.kta-ev.com/Climate_Control_Components/Auxiliary_Switch_Kit.aspx


----------



## chamilun (Jun 17, 2008)

I used a part from I believe digikey that was much cheaper than that. Do some searching and youll find it.


----------



## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

chamilun said:


> I used a part from I believe digikey that was much cheaper than that. Do some searching and youll find it.


well if ya ever come across it again please post the link

Thanks

Brian


----------



## tomofreno (Mar 3, 2009)

Thanks. That is the same relay I am using with my ceramic heater core. I would like to use a 3kW heater but my pack is only 115V nominal, so the heater would pull about 24A. The relay is only rated for 120VDC/20ADC. I can't find any relays that handle higher DC current at 120VDC, lots that handle higher at AC Volts, and contactors are much more costly.


----------



## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

I just ordered one of these, $40 get em while they're hot 
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=190365509027


----------



## CroDriver (Jan 8, 2009)

JRP3 said:


> I just ordered one of these, $40 get em while they're hot
> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=190365509027


I have 10 of them. I'm pushing 1000A trough them and they don't even get warm.

Brian, I have just received my Elithion BMS for 112 cells but there's no manual. Is there something that I should take care of or is it just plug&play?

I remember that you had some trouble with the BMS so I would like to avoid that if possible. 

Thank you


----------



## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

CroDriver said:


> I have 10 of them. I'm pushing 1000A trough them and they don't even get warm.
> 
> Brian, I have just received my Elithion BMS for 112 cells but there's no manual. Is there something that I should take care of or is it just plug&play?
> 
> ...


the web site is the manual and a pretty good one. How are you breaking down the banks???

test every bank as you go, do not use both 12 vdc power inputs (charger and ign) pick one other wise you will get faults. Be super careful soldering as they are very close contacts/ pads to solder to. Just because a board may not be blinking it does not mean it is that specific board that is bad,, it may be and end + or - board. It really was pretty nuch plug and play but if you do have an issue feel free to call me and i may be able to offer immediate help ( "MAY" being the key word here) 800-728-6976.

Brian


----------



## chamilun (Jun 17, 2008)

http://www.newark.com/tyco-electronics-potter-brumfield/prd-11dh0-12/power-relay/dp/18M9286

this is the relay I used way back when


----------



## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

chamilun said:


> http://www.newark.com/tyco-electronics-potter-brumfield/prd-11dh0-12/power-relay/dp/18M9286
> 
> this is the relay I used way back when


ya thats pretty much the same not sure if it comes with the capacitors and resistors

cheap enough though

Thanks


----------



## MJ Monterey (Aug 20, 2009)

Any updates?

How's it treating the owner?

MJ


----------



## Powered By DC (Jan 3, 2009)

I just wanted to let everyone know that we have exactly *ONE *AC55 with the UMOC controller left to sell. We had sold all of them we had and were holding this one for a customer who put down a deposit. Due to financial issues this customer has decided he no longer wants it and so it is now available for sale. I know several people were still interested in getting one while this thread was active. If anyone is still interested let me know ASAP  This is an extremly clean setup it has been tested and runs well. The price is $4500 OBO

Dave Kois
EV Components, LLC
[email protected]
253-988-5020
Skype dkoisii


----------



## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

Well it has been awhile for me on here but the good news is that the car is done and delivered. The customer is a pretty happy camper and is driving it every day. We are still taking it easy on the batteries but to my amazement we are easily getting 35 miles. It looks like we may get 45 -50 mile from theis 4000 pounder. The bms is working great and the charging is also great, had many more issues with the heater but actually resolved that as well. Still need to charge the AC up and hope it works. Will know soon. This was definately a challenge,, will I ever do it again ?????????????

here are some final pics I will add more to the thread soon just wanted to drop a note to say I was alive and all is good.

Can't find the last pics I will post later when I have more time

Missed ya guys!!!!!!!!

Brian


----------



## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

Welcome back Brain!!!


----------



## PatricioIN (Jun 13, 2008)

you have to do at least one more with those 300Ah Lithiums, Brian! Since I can't do another one right now....


----------



## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Glad you completed the job successfully. I was worried you had a disaster or something.


----------



## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

no disasters just some issues. It is a very cool ride I will say.

Brian


----------



## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

Here are a couple of finished pics of the under hood.

B


----------



## CroDriver (Jan 8, 2009)

Looks good

How many kWh does it have?


----------



## Grant_NZ (May 28, 2008)

Nice touch with the warning on the hood lining, is that embroidered?


----------



## tomofreno (Mar 3, 2009)

> had many more issues with the heater but actually resolved that as well.


 Could you briefly outline the issues and how you resolved them? I'm planning on installing something similar to what you originally described, and would like to avoid those issues.


----------



## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

CroDriver said:


> Looks good
> 
> How many kWh does it have?


around 20kw

100 60 AH cells

Brian


----------



## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

Grant_NZ said:


> Nice touch with the warning on the hood lining, is that embroidered?


yes embroidered I did that myself

Brian


----------



## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

tomofreno said:


> Could you briefly outline the issues and how you resolved them? I'm planning on installing something similar to what you originally described, and would like to avoid those issues.


what voltage are you dealing with?
I am dealing with like 320 or so and it kept burning up my 220VAC water tank elements,, I needed a faster reacting thermostat to shut off the power to the element

finally found an adjustable one from Grainger and mounted it to the actual heater hose. It turns the power going to the element off at 98 degrees and back on at 84 degrees. remember this is the outside of the hose temp the water is much hotter .. 180 degrees is my guess then cools to probably 140 degrees then it all starts again,, works like a champ now,, burned up about 5 elements. I also added the 13 pound radiator cap filler thingy and got rid of the ugly overflow can.

Brian


----------



## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

Been awhile huh guys? Just wanted to let ya all know that this last Saturday I finally charged up the air conditioning in the Kia, and I'll be darned,,,,,,, IT WORKS!!!!!!!! No real issues at all. Been dreading it for a couple months or so from fear that it wouldn't work but very little tweaking and it works like a champ. It sure draws some power thats for sure but its pretty darn hot here and Al insisted I get er done. On a bad note the rear end of the Kia is on its way out. ( OUCH) we are looking for a quick change rear end so I can get the gear reduction to about 10:1,, the factory 4.66:1 just has no power at take off,, after it gets up to about 10-15 mph its fine, so if any one has any great ideas I am all ears.

Brian


----------



## MJ Monterey (Aug 20, 2009)

Brian,

Are you thinking of the Halibrand or Winters type quick changes?

If you are, one recommendation to guide your choice is to look for Helical cut spur gears. In a daily driver, the noise from straight cut gears can be real annoying.

Although you can get an all brand new component rear axle, please keep in mind that these are based on the pre wwII flathead ford V8 design and your suppliers are racers/hot rodders and sometimes the matching prices for race parts.

MJ


----------



## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Maybe you can find an aftermarket under drive to put between the motor and rear end, or just use a 2 speed transfercase with a 2:1 low range.


----------



## MJ Monterey (Aug 20, 2009)

Under-drive units for cars and trucks tend to be only 10% to 20%. I do not think that is enough change to make the required difference.

As a starting point to chase the transfer case under-drives:

http://www.klunev.com/apps_manual_new_page_2a.htm

Key word you may be looking for is divorced (separate from trans and transfer-case). Under drive mounted to a frame cross member. You can run a very short shaft from the motor to the Under drive and then a second shaft from the under drive to the rear end. 

Again ask about helical versus strait cut gears.....


----------



## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

An underdrive like this could in theory do the trick but there will be some modding to make it fit. Also bear in mind that this is designed for full size pickups and probably has a lot of extra meat in it that will just weigh the car down. I don't know if a lighter duty underdrive exists.

http://sfbay.craigslist.org/nby/pts/1790337249.html


----------



## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

MJ Monterey said:


> Under-drive units for cars and trucks tend to be only 10% to 20%. I do not think that is enough change to make the required difference.
> 
> As a starting point to chase the transfer case under-drives:
> 
> ...


the problem I am not to sure of is can they handle 10000 rpm on the front side? Most I have seen are like 5k - 6 k max

Brian


----------



## MJ Monterey (Aug 20, 2009)

Good point about the input side red line. 

Haven't run into the issue with a Jeep......

So the next question: Power Glide locked in low?


----------



## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

MJ Monterey said:


> Good point about the input side red line.
> 
> Haven't run into the issue with a Jeep......
> 
> So the next question: Power Glide locked in low?


can a power glide handle 10K rpm without foaming up too much??? I doubt it.

Brian


----------



## sunworksco (Sep 8, 2008)

rctous said:


> Been awhile huh guys? Just wanted to let ya all know that this last Saturday I finally charged up the air conditioning in the Kia, and I'll be darned,,,,,,, IT WORKS!!!!!!!! No real issues at all. Been dreading it for a couple months or so from fear that it wouldn't work but very little tweaking and it works like a champ. It sure draws some power thats for sure but its pretty darn hot here and Al insisted I get er done. On a bad note the rear end of the Kia is on its way out. ( OUCH) we are looking for a quick change rear end so I can get the gear reduction to about 10:1,, the factory 4.66:1 just has no power at take off,, after it gets up to about 10-15 mph its fine, so if any one has any great ideas I am all ears.
> 
> Brian


Speedway Engineering is the smart way to go.
http://www.1speedway.com/irs_quickchange.htm
Regards,
John


----------



## Richard Slaughter (Sep 30, 2010)

rctous said:


> it is part of the wiring of the controller,, a couple wires went to ground, the actual brake lite trigger wire sends a "neg" when regen is on. That wire went to a relay to make it a positve trigger then to the brake lite. There is a switch in the car as well that turns off regen,, wet or slick conditions you want it off thats for sure.
> 
> Brian


I too have a A55 and UMOC440 controller. So far I have not been able to get the controller to run the motor. The controller computer interface indicates all is well and say the motor is accelerating but no power is going to the motor. Did you find anything unusaly in the interface that wasn't documented?
Thannk
Richard


----------

