# LiFePO4 Resources



## TX_Dj (Jul 25, 2008)

The quality of those packs cannot be verified. Period. Unless you buy them and test them yourself.

The big problem with lithium cells so far, is that you get what you pay for.

That's to say that if you buy $10,000 worth of lithium batteries instead of $30,000 worth of lithium batteries of the same voltage and capacity, you tend to be doing nothing more than throwing your money out the window.

A member of my local EV club bought a car that was professionally converted from a new glider with cheap LiFePO4 batteries. He got, I think, about 10 cycles out of them before they bloated and popped due to insufficient BMS capability.

The good LiFePO4 batteries are not available to consumers, unless you're willing to go buy a bunch of dewalt A123-equipped batteries and disassemble them and put them together in your own configuration, with a quality BMS.

I have, however, heard good things about LifeBatt. Their batteries come with integrated advanced BMS systems and chargers. The price tag is still far too steep for my blood, though... hence why everything I own has (or will have) some form of lead acid in it for the foreseeable future.

It's not really a weight/performance thing... it's more of a finances/shelter-food thing.


----------



## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

Don't go to Ebay for lithium iron phosphate batteries.

The only real resource you have are chinese products and they are usually not the best quality. I am working with a chinese company that has been in the business for a while, but am still taking as many precautions as possible. Would I risk a larger purchace based on what I know now? maybe. Would I be comfortable advising some one else to also buy them? no. At least not yet.

As much as I hate to say this, you have to wait a little longer unless you want to be on the bleeding edge of this new technology. Like TX_DJ said, american or european suppliers have more solid reputations, but are not interested in selling directly to private individuals. So we are stuck between a rock and a hard place.

Thundersky is the name that many think about when chinese lithium ion batteries are mentioned. The initial purchase from 2006 is no infamous in the EV world because they were basically junk. Now thundersky is trying again with the new LiFePo4 chemistry and they are selling them to customers all over the world. I have tried to find info on how reliable these cells are and do far haven't had much luck. They are being used and so far all I am hearing is that they do work well, finding some complaints has been all but impossible for me. This does no mean that the product is sound however, because the new version is only a couple of years old.

I wish I could tell you something more encouraging.


----------



## joseph3354 (Apr 2, 2008)

you could check out this company: http://elitepowersolutions.com/products/index.php

they have offices here in the u.s.,reasonable pricing for this technology.may have to order some myself!


----------



## john818 (Aug 1, 2008)

joseph3354 said:


> you could check out this company: http://elitepowersolutions.com/products/index.php
> 
> they have offices here in the u.s.,reasonable pricing for this technology.may have to order some myself!


I met a couple of people from Elite at the AltCar Expo in Santa Monica a few weeks ago. Seemed nice and open to answering questions. They say they're the US distributor for Thundersky.

I'm not seriously considering LiFePo4 yet, so I didn't spend much time with them, but I remember a couple of things they said. They admitted there were some quality problems at first, but they say they've improved. They also stressed that many problems were caused by users who matched the batteries up with the wrong BMS and chargers. They sell matched systems to minimize this kind of error.

As I said, I'm not really looking at LiFePo4, but after talking with them, I had a bit more confidence in the technology and their support. If I were doing a bike, I would definitely look into it more.


----------



## fugdabug (Jul 14, 2008)

joseph3354 said:


> you could check out this company: http://elitepowersolutions.com/products/index.php
> 
> they have offices here in the u.s.,reasonable pricing for this technology.may have to order some myself!


I was checking out the forums... there seems to be a lot of 'not directly answering' in the replies to the questions asked by folks. And I don't see much activity on the site... no registered users are logged. Products look shaky...


----------



## fugdabug (Jul 14, 2008)

I just got done viewing the LiFeBatt site... a 12V 120Ahr pack... that weighs in at 53lbs... per pack... $2735.00 (US$)... Shipped from Taiwan. This is by the way the SAME battery I saw on a site from the UK, and inquired about to their rep here in the States and never got an answer to my questions... The battery may be a good battery, but $2735.00 each 12VDC 120Ahr at 53.9lbs???
I may have to haul 18 60lb. batteries around for my 108VDC system but they are 6VDC and 229Ahr and $139.00($US) each... The LiFeBatt is almost equivalent weight, less Ahr... and how many times the cost??? At say 120VDC the LiFeBatt system would cost $32,820.00... excuse me! I paid $3336.00 for 24 - 6VDC 229Ahr batteries and got FREE shipping. And the wieght: 646.8 for 12 LiFeBatts, 1080lbs (true) for my 18 - 6V's... for the price and the Ahrs... I will take the extra 400+ lbs. Those batteries have not been proven among a lot of EV'ers that I see... Holy Moley... These folks think they have a kettle of fish that they can just suck bucks out of!!!


----------



## joseph3354 (Apr 2, 2008)

fugdabug said:


> I was checking out the forums... there seems to be a lot of 'not directly answering' in the replies to the questions asked by folks. And I don't see much activity on the site... no registered users are logged. Products look shaky...


products " look " shaky? have you bought anything from them? the prices are lower than the ones i got directly from the factory for my sample packs ( about 53 cents per watt hour). plus less shipping costs. they just started up in march , i would imagine they are still building up their business. can thay have a chance with all the negativity in the EV community? one has to wonder........


----------



## fugdabug (Jul 14, 2008)

joseph3354 said:


> products " look " shaky? have you bought anything from them? the prices are lower than the ones i got directly from the factory for my sample packs ( about 53 cents per watt hour). plus less shipping costs. they just started up in march , i would imagine they are still building up their business. can thay have a chance with all the negativity in the EV community? one has to wonder........


Well when the rep is contacted and replies asking you what is it you would like to know, and you answer and ask things like how is the product on tests for EV applications, PRICE, Life expectancy... and then zip, zero,.. blank air... is it any wonder a person would question the virtue of the product?  AND if it is being sold in the UK... I haven't seen ONE real product review from the UK or here in the US... Now that may be due to the economic downturn at this time as well... the company being a start up could be sucking rocks for investors bucks, HK was on the ropes and gasping last time I checked the markets (which I do often having such an interest...). So... a number of factors could be alternate reasons.


----------



## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

fugdabug said:


> I just got done viewing the LiFeBatt site... a 12V 120Ahr pack... that weighs in at 53lbs... per pack... $2735.00 (US$)... Shipped from Taiwan. This is by the way the SAME battery I saw on a site from the UK, and inquired about to their rep here in the States and never got an answer to my questions... The battery may be a good battery, but $2735.00 each 12VDC 120Ahr at 53.9lbs???
> I may have to haul 18 60lb. batteries around for my 108VDC system but they are 6VDC and 229Ahr and $139.00($US) each... The LiFeBatt is almost equivalent weight, less Ahr... and how many times the cost??? At say 120VDC the LiFeBatt system would cost $32,820.00... excuse me! I paid $3336.00 for 24 - 6VDC 229Ahr batteries and got FREE shipping. And the wieght: 646.8 for 12 LiFeBatts, 1080lbs (true) for my 18 - 6V's... for the price and the Ahrs... I will take the extra 400+ lbs. Those batteries have not been proven among a lot of EV'ers that I see... Holy Moley... These folks think they have a kettle of fish that they can just suck bucks out of!!!


Lifebatt is selling cells made in Taiwan and they rip on jobbers in china??? Talk about the pot calling the kettle black! That price is way too high no matter what claims of reliability they make.


----------



## freddyflatfoot (Oct 6, 2008)

I'm running a 'duct tape' LiFePo4 pack from Ebay. Bought it from Ping, and is probably the most relaible seller on Ebay ATM.
However, while these packs are ideal for e-bike usage, their 'C' rate would dictate that they would be too weak for an EV, unless someone can prove me wrong!
They generally recommend that the discharge rate is at 1C or lower, certainly no more than 2C, and they usually have a peak of 3C.
I run my pack at no more than 1.5C (peak), and generally less, on a 10AHr pack.
With close to 150 cycles so far, the pack is still going quite strong.
A 90 AHr pack will only give you a continuous Amp draw of 90 amps, with maybe a peak of 180A?
Other battery manufacturers have higher C rates and would be more suitable in an EV application. LifeBatt and Thundersky would be good examples.


----------



## hardym (Apr 2, 2008)

Regarding the LiFeP04 cells that 'bloated and popped' rumors in this thread, I've traced down some more information from the head of the North Texas EVA. He writes:


The EV in question was the Lion EV Ranger pickup delivered to Plano, Tx. There is a second Ranger delivered to St. Augustine, Tx which also has a bad set of lithiums due to no BMS. Lion did not have BMS on the truck. It was never told to the owner of the truck that he needed it. LionEV didn't back the product. The cells were all distorted when I removed them for the owner. Most were quite puffed up, which is what overcharged lithiums do. We load tested them and found them to not be able to perform. Now, there is a proceedure of opening the vent, charging and discharging them while sqeezing them in a vise. This process does work. 7 of the cells are now back to their original shape and load test OK. When they are all finished the owner is going to put them back into the truck. We will see if they will continue to live. 
None of this saga has anything to do with the performance of the LifeP04 cells. I have a Fiero with the same cells and have a BMS from Hot Juice Electric in Austin, Tx. They are performing as advertised. I am still being very careful while I get to know them. I have a complete Monitor/regulation system being designed and built at this time. When we proof it on my Fiero we will put out the product for others going with the LifeP04's or any other battery type.
If you want to see some of the things we have done with the lithiums as well as other stuff go to http://www.flickr.com/photos/mbarkley 
The cells I'm using are made by China Hipower. 
All I can say to you about the lithiums is you must have BMS. You must have BMS which controls the charging cycle. The Chinese folks think it is only need on the discharge side. They are asking us about our BMS. If you charge the 3 Volt cell higher than about 3.65 volts you are going to hurt it. If you discharge it below 2.7 volts you are going to hurt it. When you have a series charger you need regulation. The cells act like NiCad in that they sag greatly at first throttle application and then remain flat for a long time at 3.4 volts or so. Then they drop at the end as quickly as they sagged in the beginning. 
Let me know if you want any more info on the lithiums. We are having a great time with them. My Fiero lost 1000 LBS!
Regards,
John L. Brecher
Garland, Tx


----------



## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

hardym said:


> Regarding the LiFeP04 cells that 'bloated and popped' rumors in this thread, I've traced down some more information from the head of the North Texas EVA. He writes:
> 
> 
> The EV in question was the Lion EV Ranger pickup delivered to Plano, Tx. There is a second Ranger delivered to St. Augustine, Tx which also has a bad set of lithiums due to no BMS. Lion did not have BMS on the truck. It was never told to the owner of the truck that he needed it. LionEV didn't back the product. The cells were all distorted when I removed them for the owner. Most were quite puffed up, which is what overcharged lithiums do. We load tested them and found them to not be able to perform. Now, there is a proceedure of opening the vent, charging and discharging them while sqeezing them in a vise. This process does work. 7 of the cells are now back to their original shape and load test OK. When they are all finished the owner is going to put them back into the truck. We will see if they will continue to live.
> ...


How old is this info? last I heard the fiero was converted back to lead?

The supplier I am working with at the moment uses a charger that has a built in ballancer that turns on near the end of the charge cycle. They use no BMS on the indivual cells at all, only a simple connection to the charger for the built in BMS protocol.


----------



## hardym (Apr 2, 2008)

david85 said:


> How old is this info? last I heard the fiero was converted back to lead?


This info is current as of Oct 30 2008. John is the Fiero owner, so his experience is first-hand. He is not the owner of the LionEV trucks.

I appreciate your enthusiam for pressing forward with a lithium purchase. I am very interested in this. Do you know of any successful implementation of the cells, BMS and Charger in a large EV? 

Is 'the Supplier' supposed to be a mystery or is this an upfront deal?

Mark.


----------



## fugdabug (Jul 14, 2008)

Question: I need to know, HOW MUCH DO THEY COST PER PACK? and WHO is the most reliable dealer that you could recommend? This is important to all of us out here. Cost is a factor as is dependability and IF a person pays mucho bucks ya want to make sure it is for something that will work. So... anybody?


----------



## joseph3354 (Apr 2, 2008)

hardym said:


> This info is current as of Oct 30 2008. John is the Fiero owner, so his experience is first-hand. He is not the owner of the LionEV trucks.
> 
> I appreciate your enthusiam for pressing forward with a lithium purchase. I am very interested in this. Do you know of any successful implementation of the cells, BMS and Charger in a large EV?
> 
> ...


the supplier is no mystery,the details of the dealings that myself and david85 have had with them can be found here:

http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showthread.php/welcome-cindy-zou-12147.html


----------



## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

hardym said:


> This info is current as of Oct 30 2008. John is the Fiero owner, so his experience is first-hand. He is not the owner of the LionEV trucks.
> 
> I appreciate your enthusiam for pressing forward with a lithium purchase. I am very interested in this. Do you know of any successful implementation of the cells, BMS and Charger in a large EV?
> 
> ...


Thats good to know, I'm glad to know that car is still running on lithium. What sort of range is the car returning now? My experience so far with this company has been positive. The battery and charger (and BMS) have performed properly so far, but the discharge rates only went as far as 60 amps so far, so there's more work to be done.


----------



## fugdabug (Jul 14, 2008)

But the link doesn't answer the basic questions... how much did you pay for your packs... and I didn't find the pictured pack in the listings of li-on batteries that they have in their product list... 
SO what did you pay per pack..?


----------



## joseph3354 (Apr 2, 2008)

david85 states what he paid for his battery in his testing thread,i paid $20 per cell plus freight for the samples i have. shoot out an email to the company,they will tell you anything you want to know.


----------



## fugdabug (Jul 14, 2008)

joseph3354 said:


> david85 states what he paid for his battery in his testing thread,i paid $20 per cell plus freight for the samples i have. shoot out an email to the company,they will tell you anything you want to know.


Hey, MUCHOS THANKOS! Will definitely give that a check out.


----------



## batteryshow (Nov 4, 2008)

Please don't purchase any from ebay .
you can purchase complete packs with BMS and charger from factory ,
and it is better to pack 24cells(3.2V100AH) in series is ok ,it is simple and manage for BMS .


----------

