# If money was no object what EV would you go for?



## palmer_md (Jul 22, 2011)

If money was no object, I'd just purchase a fully loaded Tesla P85D. It would be hard to build a car any better for less.


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## Therealriley (Jul 28, 2015)

I figured that would come up many times it's nice to see a good looking EV car for a change. I later changed my first question to say DIY because of that lol 
What would you build if that was not an option?


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

If money was no object, I'd just purchase a fully loaded Tesla P85D. It would be _impossible_ to build a car any better for less.

Any DIY car is a "niche" vehicle - car companies spend millions developing the compromises that we end up driving
The only way to match them is to have different compromises

If I had a ton of money I would start with a crashed Tesla S type and make myself an open sports car out of it

As far as the daily charge is concerned the technology is now out there for a non contact charger
This would have a coil in the floor of your garage and a coil under the car

All you would have to do is park the car (or if it's a Tesla let it park itself) and the car/garage would handle the rest
The system I have seen uses some clever coil geometry and about 20Khz to allow for a reasonable amount of misalignment


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## Tomdb (Jan 28, 2013)

4 emrax 268 motors with custom controllers.
A lithium pack built with the latest 18650 cells, laser welded sub packs. 100kwh.
2 seater, monoque made of carbon.
total vehicle weight below 1200 kg (quite possible now already)
Chademo charger interface

That should make quite a fun car. However as all the other guys are noting a model S will most likely be cheaper (depending on your skill level and access to tools.)


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## dougingraham (Jul 26, 2011)

If money was no object....

But money is always an object. So get a little more specific. What do you mean by a high performance car? Is 100 mph an acceptable top speed? Is 0-60 in less than 6 seconds necessary? Or is it under 4 seconds? How much range do you need? Increasing the range hurts the acceleration. I am happy with the way my car turned out. 0-60 in about 6 seconds. Top speed of just over 100. Range of about 60 miles max. I typically drive only 12 miles per day so I can go a couple of days without charging but why? It takes almost no effort to plug it in.

If you want to convert a car the components to get would be the drive train from a salvaged Tesla model S. That will give you 400 HP in a proven package. Then to get full power you need a battery that can deliver 1200 amps at 300 volts. If you want ludicrous speed you need 1500 amps at 300 volts. This is not easy to reach. With LiFe batteries you need about 100 of the 180 AH cells minumum (57.6kwh). These are 12.4 lbs each so 1240 lbs for the battery. Should give a range of around 150 miles give or take. You would probably need to parallel at least three Leaf Packs or four Volt packs to get the current needed to make the Tesla drive train happy.

But this car would not be a good canyon carver or track car. 1200+ lbs of batteries would be the problem in a conversion. Tesla S is probably a pretty good canyon carver because the batteries are so low. You are not going to get this in a conversion because there is no way to mount the batteries that low.


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## Hollie Maea (Dec 9, 2009)

1x Factory Five 818C
4x AMR-115R motors
4x RMS PM150DZ inverters
65kWh 18650 NCA batteries.

I don't ask for much...


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## frodus (Apr 12, 2008)

Rimac Concept_One


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## palmer_md (Jul 22, 2011)

Therealriley said:


> I figured that would come up many times it's nice to see a good looking EV car for a change. I later changed my first question to say DIY because of that lol
> What would you build if that was not an option?


Buy a wrecked P85D and put the drive components and battery into the vehicle of your choice. There is really nothing better than the Tesla drive train at this point. If you have the money, there is no better way to go. 

AMRacing with Rhinehart might be as close as we get at this point. But it'll cost more than a wrecked Tesla for just the motor and controller.

Which brings us back to the point made in an earlier post, money is almost always a big factor in these things and there are plenty of choices that will work well for a commuter car DIY project. I don't think you'll be disappointed with any conversion if you use quality components and don't try and go the least expensive route. These projects will never pencil out financially but neither does fishing or golf. Everyone has a hobby and they all cost money. I certainly enjoy driving my conversion...even when it was a lead powered conversion.


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## dragonsgate (May 19, 2012)

If money was no object I would buy J. Leno's garage and then move the cars around to make room for my new Teslas and a Rimac or two.


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## Therealriley (Jul 28, 2015)

I just seen that Rimac on YouTube and it looks sweet.
I also came across this video too wondering what makes it so different compared to a tesla? https://youtu.be/lQkdMw4TVjY

I've been looking at components after some recommendations and it becomes difficult to work everything out being a novice at electrical engineering. 
Can an amateur pull this off? 

I guess il be doing a few more months of researching and googling before I get into building a DIY one myself but I'm positive it's the way forward. At least the cost looks better than I thought as most guides/videos I watch seem to be 3-5 years old so the prices quoted seem too high to warrant the build.

If money was no object I think I would still build a EV conversion in a vw rabbit/caddy pickup......or maybe pay someone else to do it but where's the fun in that!


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## sholland (Jan 16, 2012)

- 2 of Brusa DTD01 dual motors
- 4 of Brusa DMC544 inverters
- A battery that can supply it all
- A good welder 

Cost has to be no object for these motors and inverters!


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## piotrsko (Dec 9, 2007)

Sitting here thinking: my problems all get solved by a MR. FUSION. Everything else just adds so much weight or complexity.


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## Russ Binder (Aug 4, 2015)

palmer_md said:


> Buy a wrecked P85D and put the drive components and battery into the vehicle of your choice.


How about two (or more) AC-150 systems for a whole lot less? Just asking...


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## rochesterricer (Jan 5, 2011)

Russ Binder said:


> How about two (or more) AC-150 systems for a whole lot less? Just asking...


Weren't those priced at something like $25k each?


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## Russ Binder (Aug 4, 2015)

As new systems, yes, they were around $25K. 

The Gen 2 systems I have for sale are used (less that 25000 miles), extracted from an OE fleet of specially converted cars used in a 2009 pilot program. These systems include the 150 kW (200 hp) motor, Power Electronics Unit (inverter, integrated 18 kW charger, etc.), plus a FWD transmission that includes a shifter w/Park and the coupler, cooling fans (motor, PEU and battery case are air cooled), plus hardware and more. 

Asking $6000 for each complete set. Forty sets available.

Batteries are NOT included with the systems. Brand-new, high-power-density battery packs, much like the ones used in the cars originally, are available for $500/kWh. These will work seamlessly with the systems. These are made in Southern CA, and are used now, for example, on a fleet of transit buses in daily operation. The modules contain nothing from China, if that matters.


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## CrazyAl (May 9, 2011)

If money was no object, I would convert a Porsche Cayenne that would have a 500 mile range, be able to tow 7000lbs and have the performance of a regular 911 GT3RS.

I'd have brushless DC or AC motors and four of them (two at each differential with a dog clutch between motor and transmission - in case motor ran away) and ditch the transmission and middle diff. Emrax motors look appealing, but the Brusa motors @sholland suggested above also looks appealing. I'd have it so that I select it via switch so that it can be front wheel drive, rear wheel drive or 4WD.
I'd replace the bonnet with a carbon fiber bonnet.

Also, no touch screens for me. I prefer switches where I can drive with gloves on.


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## Ai! (May 9, 2014)

plus one here)


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## epyon (Mar 20, 2008)

A Zilla 4k
2 modified Warp 13
NiMH pack -410 volts at 500 ah(carbon fiber)
build a body an frame from titanium alloy and carbon fiber


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## Karter2 (Nov 17, 2011)

Why NiMH ?.........money no object remember !


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## favguy (May 2, 2008)

I think I'd build something like a Lamborghini Aventador with the whole kit and caboodle of a Model S P85D transferred into it.


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## Ampster (Oct 6, 2012)

I would have a Model X, a Smart ED and a GEM E2 converted to Lithium with an HPEVs AC15 motor and bigger wheels.


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## epyon (Mar 20, 2008)

Karter2 said:


> Why NiMH ?.........money no object remember !


I don't think Li-ion is a very good battery . Everyone uses a Ni type of battery every chance the manufactures get . They are still trying new ones today . A 2 volt range , can''t take cold , can't take heat , swell up .


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## Ampster (Oct 6, 2012)

There is a difference between NiMH and LMNi.


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## Ampster (Oct 6, 2012)

Li Ion includes many sub groups including Lipo, LiFePo & LMNi whereas NiMH is an entirely different chemistry.


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## epyon (Mar 20, 2008)

NiMA , it's a dream battery right ?


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## Karter2 (Nov 17, 2011)

epyon said:


> I don't think Li-ion is a very good battery . Everyone uses a Ni type of battery every chance the manufactures get . They are still trying new ones today . A 2 volt range , can''t take cold , can't take heat , swell up .


 .? Who is the " everyone" you refer to ?
Have you heard of a company called. Tesla ?


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## samwichse (Jan 28, 2012)

Or Honda? Civic hybrid, CR-Z both went lithium. Accord hybrid/plugin are both lithium now as well. Only thing they have that's not in US is the Insight, which is discontinued this year and has not received a model update since 2010.

Hyundai also uses lithium as does Ford.

Toyota is pretty much the only major company that still does NiMH... and only for non-plugins.


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## Karter2 (Nov 17, 2011)

..add GM Volt, Nissan Leaf, BMW i3, Fisker, Toyota RAV 4, etc etc ......


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## epyon (Mar 20, 2008)

The Fisker's catch on fire or don't run at all . The Tesla is $100,000.00 a pop . They are both cool looking cars . And every other company you put down have some type of Ni battery in research , even if the all "full" electrics use Li-ion .


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## Ampster (Oct 6, 2012)

I suppose you could say the Fiskers are prone to flooding also. Perhaps there is a semantic disagreement here. All the batteries mentioned use Lithium Ion chemistry. Some have a little NI mixed in but none have or are researching NI chemistry. That does not include your hypothetical NIMA battery. Sorry for the digression


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## Russ Binder (Aug 4, 2015)

CrazyAl said:


> If money was no object, I would convert a Porsche Cayenne that would have a 500 mile range, be able to tow 7000lbs and have the performance of a regular 911 GT3RS.
> 
> I'd have brushless DC or AC motors and four of them (two at each differential with a dog clutch between motor and transmission - in case motor ran away) and ditch the transmission and middle diff. Emrax motors look appealing, but the Brusa motors @sholland suggested above also looks appealing. I'd have it so that I select it via switch so that it can be front wheel drive, rear wheel drive or 4WD.
> I'd replace the bonnet with a carbon fiber bonnet.
> ...


Care to try 2 or 4 AC 150 systems for your vehicle? I know everyone on this forum has kind of dismissed these, but I figured take a shot.


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## Russ Binder (Aug 4, 2015)

Ampster said:


> I suppose you could say the Fiskers are prone to flooding also. Perhaps there is a semantic disagreement here. All the batteries mentioned use Lithium Ion chemistry. Some have a little NI mixed in but none have or are researching NI chemistry. That does not include your hypothetical NIMA battery. Sorry for the digression


Fiskers are no more prone to flooding than any other car. They were, inarguably, more prone to not being IP67 rated, or better. My guess is that they won't make THAT mistake again, although I understand they are going ahead with the overpriced, underpowered, high-style looks but no guts/all compromise mistake again, now that some off-shore crew that thinks they know everything owns it.


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

Russ Binder said:


> Care to try 2 or 4 AC 150 systems for your vehicle? I know everyone on this forum has kind of dismissed these, but I figured take a shot.



Hi Russ
I don't think "everybody has dismissed these" - I bet I'm not alone in really wanting one of those systems but currently unable to pony up the readies

How many have you got left?


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## Ampster (Oct 6, 2012)

Russ Binder said:


> Fiskers are no more prone to flooding than any other car. ......


Yes, that was offered in jest to his statement that the Fisker was prone to fires. One may have caught fire and in a separate incident, several hundred Fiskers were caught in a storm and damaged as they were awaiting transport from some port.


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## Russ Binder (Aug 4, 2015)

Duncan said:


> Hi Russ
> I don't think "everybody has dismissed these" - I bet I'm not alone in really wanting one of those systems but currently unable to pony up the readies
> 
> How many have you got left?


40. I think it isn't just cost that has turned people off - the systems are likely not so user friendly to use. Just more of a mismatch, that's all...no harm, no foul, just not the right product for the DIY market.


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## ViciousKing (Jun 3, 2020)

> If money was no object, I'd just purchase a fully loaded Tesla P85D. It would be hard to build a car any better for less.



I would do the very same thing. Teslas are cool. But they are damn overpriced. I'm saving up for this exact model right now. I even left my job for it, because they didn't pay me enough. Now I have my own startup. It wasn't easy for me to make this step, though. But now I have more money than ever. I was dreaming about new Tesla and one of my friends sent me an article about passive income options and now I own some real estate and have my own online shop with prints. I want to try to modify my old Chrysler and try to ride electric car before I buy a Tesla, though. And that's why I'm here.


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

ViciousKing said:


> I was dreaming about new Tesla and one of my friends sent me an article about @#$%^&* and now I own some real estate and have my own online shop with prints. I want to try to modify my old Chrysler and try to ride electric car before I buy a Tesla, though. And that's why I'm here.


Is that why you're really here? Because with that link (which replaced with @#$%^&*), it looks like advertising spam.


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## ViciousKing (Jun 3, 2020)

brian_ said:


> Is that why you're really here? Because with that link (which replaced with @#$%^&*), it looks like advertising spam.


Is it? I just thought that there would be nothing bad if I will share my find with people here.


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## palmer_md (Jul 22, 2011)

Well, if money were no object, I'd be test driving the Porsche Taycan or the Rimac Concept Two.

I'm thinking I'd be driving a C_Two. The only disadvantage is the 2 seat setup. I do have a family. So really if money were not object we'd have them both and the wife could drive the Porsche.


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## j-rho (May 29, 2019)

Been thinking about this lately too. Want a car that could lap around a racetrack with consistently high performance for 10 minutes without overheating (Time Attack). The attainable OE stuff is SOOO heavy!

Starting from a small-ish tube frame car, 3x Model3 PM motors (1 on front axle, 1 for each rear wheel) with a 100kwh Tesla battery. Beefy/oversized AC system to try to keep things cool enough.

How much is a system like that giving up to the high end Cascadia Motion type bits?


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## NwCali6 (May 22, 2021)

I'd want the motors built in hub/wheel with the batteries between the wheels on the front/rear all the way to the rear (at least 100KW) The heat from the motor/batteries would supplement cabin heat when needed. It would be self driving. 

And it would be surrounded by a stainless small truck body with a self dump bed and a crew cab.

As far as raw horsepower I'd be happy with 250 hp total. I really see no reason to go far above the speed limits...


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## ricbarbour (Jul 28, 2021)

Someone please sell me an Aptera


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

The Aptera is a classic SCAM
Its three wheels to avoid the safety requirements and its aerodynamics look good to the beginner
But if you study the subject a bit more its a classic mistake


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## ricbarbour (Jul 28, 2021)

Duncan said:


> The Aptera is a classic SCAM


You are entitled to your opinion. Although I have seen comment sections whenever a news story about Aptera was published.....almost every time, one person with no history on that site shows up and screams that it's a "SCAM" and it will "never work" and "no one will buy it" and suchlike. I suspect people who do that are paid and undeclared auto-industry sockpuppets. It's happened before. Actually I'm kind of sick of seeing people diss the thing before it's even available for sale.

If it's a "SCAM", the two founders are obsessively pursuing it like no other "scam" I have ever seen. Aptera started up in 2005 with gas and electric versions of the same 3-wheel design. The founders hired veteran auto-industry executives (funny how THAT works), who told them the only way the company could survive was by taking money from the Dept. of Energy's "Advanced Technology Vehicle Loan" program. They never got the loan. The auto-industry nabobs pushed the founders out, then declared bankruptcy, then sold the dregs of the company to a Chinese firm that announced they would manufacture the cars. Which also did not happen. Then the founders bought up the miserable remains of Aptera and restarted the company in 2019 with crowdfunding.

The "SCAM" currently has at least $250 million of preorders.

The "SCAM" has Sandy Munroe as a supporter. And he has apparently invested in the company.

If the thing's efficiency comes anywhere in the ballpark of this guy's calculations, the Aptera will be the most efficient road vehicle on the market. About twice as efficient as any damn Tesla. The claims made for the solar panels are optimistic and unlikely to work out, but it's still good to have something to keep the battery topped up.

Give it a chance before you scream "SCAM".

Besides.....the Aptera will be using Elaphe hub motors. With the collapse of Lordstown Motors, Aptera is currently the best chance for Elaphe motors to reach mass production. And I know for a fact there are some DIYers on this forum who have long wanted Elaphe motors for their own projects. So getting Aptera to market will be good for DIYers in the long run.


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

Duncan said:


> The Aptera is a classic SCAM


It has been going for a long time, and with endless promises, nothing delivered, and a tendency to take money for something that is not in production, it looks bad. On the other hand, it might just be a well-intentioned failure.

Some aspects are implausible, such as the expectation that this vehicle with its body width and shape (and three small tires) will be able to carry 100 kWh of battery.



Duncan said:


> Its three wheels to avoid the safety requirements and its aerodynamics look good to the beginner
> But if you study the subject a bit more its a classic mistake


I agree that while the designer may claim that the three wheels are to reduce air drag (given that this is a narrow-body and separate wheels design), it is really to avoid the requirement to comply with safety requirements, largely related to structure... like almost every enclosed three-wheeler.

If the "mistake" is the tapered body, it may not be bad. Compared to the usual mistakes (such as "teardrop" trailers), the body is relatively long compared to the frontal area, allowing for what may be a viable taper. The separate wheels are a disaster, of course, even with the fairings, and the suspension linkages to them will be bad. I would be surprised if the vehicle actually achieves the claimed CD of 0.15 in a functional and road-legal form, but that's only a guess... maybe it will.


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

ricbarbour said:


> Actually I'm kind of sick of seeing people diss the thing before it's even available for sale.


They "diss the thing" because it has been promised for many years and never appeared. If Aptera actually produced anything, the conversation would change substantially; the fact that it's still not available for sale is much of the problem.

The vehicle contains no new technology. With all the money which has been raised, it should have been built. It's not as if this company is too busy producing something else - they don't do anything else.


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

Hi Brian
The separate wheels at the front was the part that I was grumping about - the taper may be slow enough to keep the airflow attached - but it certainly does not look that gentle


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

Duncan said:


> The separate wheels at the front was the part that I was grumping about -


Front wheels are certainly a problem for trikes (essentially all of which are all of this "reverse" or "tadpole" configuration with the single wheel at the rear). With no roll resistance by the single wheel, the axle with the pair of wheels does all of the roll control, and that means for acceptable load transfer it needs to have a wide track. With an envelope body that means too much frontal area and a lousy shape; this workaround with separate wheels allows a narrow and favourably shaped body, but with two air brakes attached to the sides.

I don't see this as the EV configuration to go for if money were no object, but opinions vary.



Duncan said:


> - the taper may be slow enough to keep the airflow attached - but it certainly does not look that gentle


It would be good to see the wind tunnel study that should have been done more than a decade ago.


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## ricbarbour (Jul 28, 2021)

> It would be good to see the wind tunnel study that should have been done more than a decade ago.


Funny you mention that, since Aptera has been posting (lengthy) videos


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

ricbarbour said:


> Funny you mention that, since Aptera has been posting (lengthy) videos


Excellent. Can you save us watching the ad, and let us know if there is an actual test result in there, or just pretty graphics?

I see from the title image that they also have a "Roush suspension collaboration". That could be real, but could be just paying a company with a good reputation to put their name on your product as an "engineering service". If you're old enough, you might remember "Handling by Lotus" badges on the Isuzu Impulse, which didn't have a suspension designed by Lotus... but GM owned both Isuzu and Lotus at the time.


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

Wind tunnel studies done on small scale models in a wind tunnel without a rolling road are nearly useless - 
ESPECIALLY with the complex interaction zone with the two separate wheels and the fuselage 

I looked at doing a three wheeler so I laid out the parts
A three wheeler is LARGER than a four wheeler for the same passenger area and dynamics

That is a conventional three wheeler is - a Leaning three wheeler may be better as it does not have to be so wide


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## BikingBill (Jul 10, 2019)

*RIMAC NEVERA*


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## ITubego Youtube (Sep 21, 2021)

palmer_md said:


> If money was no object, I'd just purchase a fully loaded Tesla P85D. It would be hard to build a car any better for less.


It would be difficult to build a better car for less than a fully loaded Tesla P85D.


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## MAK96 (8 mo ago)

Well, I came across the same question myself, but rather than choose an existing EV on the market, I decided to design an extreme "ultimate hypothetical racing car" of my own, on paper, which I refer to as Project IU (Imagination Unleashed). Essentially, it is a 9G+ cornering, 550+ kph, 0-100 kph in under a 1 second, 2680 hp, 4800 Nm, electric-hydrogen powered track beast, but it is all based on the existing state of the art hypercar/motorsport technologies, and I am working on the CAD, CFD and simulations of the car, along with a professor of aerodynamics, spacecraft and rocket propulsion, so that if I ever had millions of dollars lying around, I could realistically even build it. The closest thing I can imagine to my car is the RedBull X2010 prototype, in terms of performance.

Here's the link to the technical paper (Still a WIP): Project IU


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## remy_martian (Feb 4, 2019)

NIMH will dump a lot more current than a lithium battery.


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## remy_martian (Feb 4, 2019)

So, pretty much this car with a downforce fan:



https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rimac_Nevera


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## MAK96 (8 mo ago)

remy_martian said:


> So, pretty much this car with a downforce fan:
> 
> 
> 
> https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rimac_Nevera


No not the Nevera, although I am a huge Rimac fan, nevertheless i went for 8 Koenigsegg Quark motors (2 per wheel), coupled with 2 Viritech Apricale hydrogen pressure vessels, which seems to be a more extreme and lighter option than the Nevera's 1914 hp motors and 120 kWh battery pack.


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