# Re: [EVDL] Trojan battery choice: Plans changed



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Trojan battery choice: Plans changed*

On Thu, 3 Jan 2008 22:55:34 -0800 (PST), Steve Kobb <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> In a recent thread on Alternators and A/C, I mentioned that I would be
> using
> thirteen Trojan J185P 12v batteries in my 2002 Chevy S-10.
> 
> Peter VanDerWal suggested that I think twice about this particular
> product.
> In fact, he predicted that I would be buying new batteries in less than a
> year. I responded that I didn't think that would be the case, but that I
> would report my results to the list, no matter what happened.

Many before you have done much the same thing. There is a LOT of experience among the people on this list. The thing that makes humans humans is our ability to relate experiences, remember, and pass-on history to the next generation. Unfortunately for some, "if it isn't first hand experience then it didn't happen". I'm glad that isn't the case with you.


> 
> Well, several days later, I decided to go back to an info source that I
> highly value: His name is Craig Quentin, and he's the engineer at Trojan
> who
> answers technical questions from the general public.
> 
> I told him about the advice that I'd gotten from other EVDL members, and
> made special reference to Peter's observation -- that the J185P batts
> would
> not last long because EVs pull a lot more current than floor scrubbers
> use.
> (The J185 line is made for the scrubber market.)
> 
> Craig said that Peter was right about the short lifespan, but not for the
> reason cited.

I think Craig will discover that Peter's right.


> 
> Apparently, these tall batteries are meant to take a lot of abuse from
> building maintenance workers, who are notoriously hard on their gear. On
> the
> other hand, this battery uses a relatively new design that has not been
> totally proven out in the marketplace.
> 
> The one data point that Craig had was an observation from someone whose
> opinion he respects. Craig is in touch with a guy who's in charge of a
> huge
> fleet of scrubbing machines. Approximately 180 of them use the J185 model,
> and this supervisor said the new battery does not seem to take abuse as
> well
> as the tried-and-true 6v models.
> 
> So I put it to Craig this way: Bottom line -- If you were building your
> own
> EV, would you use the J185 12v battery? He said no, he would use one of
> the
> 6v products - like the T-145.
> 
> Well, that was enough for me. When a tech support guy tells me what he
> would
> and would not use in his own project, who am I to argue?
> 
> In retrospect, I realize there's one part of the phone conversation that I
> didn't fully understand. Craig didn't agree with Peter's assertion that
> high
> currents would cause this floor scrubber battery to fail sooner rather
> than
> later. Nevertheless, Craig reported some disappointing news from the
> field,
> so I'm not sure what he believes to be the problem; i.e., what is limiting
> the lifespan of this product (which uses plates similar to those in the
> T-105).
> 
> Unfortunately, I didn't follow up and clarify, so I don't have the full
> story.
> 
> But anyway, I thank Peter for waving the red flag of caution... and I
> thank
> the Trojan engineer for his candor.
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> Steve Kobb
> --

Consider... One way to ensure long life from flooded lead is to not take huge currents from it. One way to reduce the current draw from a given battery type is to parallel two of them together, that way each battery sees only half of the total current. 

The J185's use the same plates as the T105's right, BUT what they essentially do is exactly the opposite of paralleling. Now each plate in each cell of the J185 see's TWICE the current that the plates of a T-105 would see. Add in the higher voltage of the J and it has the ability to supply even more current than the T, across a given resistance, further increasing the burden on the plates. 

The 8 volt batteries do the same thing, except not as bad as the 12's.


--
Stay Charged!
Hump
"If you don't "believe" you'll make a difference, than you probably never will!" -- Jim Husted


_______________________________________________
For subscription options, see
http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Trojan battery choice: Plans changed*

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----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Trojan battery choice: Plans changed*

It is a misconception that higher current (Amperes) draws shorten the
battery life. 
Perhaps it is because some people confuse Ampere-Hours (a unit of capacity)
with Amperes or Amps (a unit of current).
If you use more Ampere-Hours per cycle (a deeper discharge) then you are
working the battery more and will give fewer cycles vs. shallower discharge
cycles. However, if you draw higher current (amperes) the depth of discharge
is shallower because the DOD is an inverse function of the rate of
discharge. Therefore, it should result in more cycles. For instance, if you
consider car starting batteries, they deliver thousands of cycle during
their life because the current draw is hundreds of Amperes for short periods
of time (i.e. very shallow DOD). Obviously, the higher current draw does not
reduce their life.
On the other hand, 800 cycles in a golf car are considered very good because
they are discharged more deeply per cycle.
Bottom line: Higher current draws do not reduce deep cycle battery life,
higher depth of discharge (Ah) does.

Nawaz Qureshi
US Battery

Message: 12
Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2008 8:45:18 -0700
From: Tim Humphrey <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Trojan battery choice: Plans changed
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <[email protected]>
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"


On Thu, 3 Jan 2008 22:55:34 -0800 (PST), Steve Kobb <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> In a recent thread on Alternators and A/C, I mentioned that I would be
> using
> thirteen Trojan J185P 12v batteries in my 2002 Chevy S-10.
> 
> Peter VanDerWal suggested that I think twice about this particular
> product.
> In fact, he predicted that I would be buying new batteries in less than a
> year. I responded that I didn't think that would be the case, but that I
> would report my results to the list, no matter what happened.

Many before you have done much the same thing. There is a LOT of experience
among the people on this list. The thing that makes humans humans is our
ability to relate experiences, remember, and pass-on history to the next
generation. Unfortunately for some, "if it isn't first hand experience then
it didn't happen". I'm glad that isn't the case with you.


> 
> Well, several days later, I decided to go back to an info source that I
> highly value: His name is Craig Quentin, and he's the engineer at Trojan
> who
> answers technical questions from the general public.
> 
> I told him about the advice that I'd gotten from other EVDL members, and
> made special reference to Peter's observation -- that the J185P batts
> would
> not last long because EVs pull a lot more current than floor scrubbers
> use.
> (The J185 line is made for the scrubber market.)
> 
> Craig said that Peter was right about the short lifespan, but not for the
> reason cited.

I think Craig will discover that Peter's right.


> 
> Apparently, these tall batteries are meant to take a lot of abuse from
> building maintenance workers, who are notoriously hard on their gear. On
> the
> other hand, this battery uses a relatively new design that has not been
> totally proven out in the marketplace.
> 
> The one data point that Craig had was an observation from someone whose
> opinion he respects. Craig is in touch with a guy who's in charge of a
> huge
> fleet of scrubbing machines. Approximately 180 of them use the J185 model,
> and this supervisor said the new battery does not seem to take abuse as
> well
> as the tried-and-true 6v models.
> 
> So I put it to Craig this way: Bottom line -- If you were building your
> own
> EV, would you use the J185 12v battery? He said no, he would use one of
> the
> 6v products - like the T-145.
> 
> Well, that was enough for me. When a tech support guy tells me what he
> would
> and would not use in his own project, who am I to argue?
> 
> In retrospect, I realize there's one part of the phone conversation that I
> didn't fully understand. Craig didn't agree with Peter's assertion that
> high
> currents would cause this floor scrubber battery to fail sooner rather
> than
> later. Nevertheless, Craig reported some disappointing news from the
> field,
> so I'm not sure what he believes to be the problem; i.e., what is limiting
> the lifespan of this product (which uses plates similar to those in the
> T-105).
> 
> Unfortunately, I didn't follow up and clarify, so I don't have the full
> story.
> 
> But anyway, I thank Peter for waving the red flag of caution... and I
> thank
> the Trojan engineer for his candor.
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> Steve Kobb
> --

Consider... One way to ensure long life from flooded lead is to not take
huge currents from it. One way to reduce the current draw from a given
battery type is to parallel two of them together, that way each battery sees
only half of the total current. 

The J185's use the same plates as the T105's right, BUT what they
essentially do is exactly the opposite of paralleling. Now each plate in
each cell of the J185 see's TWICE the current that the plates of a T-105
would see. Add in the higher voltage of the J and it has the ability to
supply even more current than the T, across a given resistance, further
increasing the burden on the plates. 

The 8 volt batteries do the same thing, except not as bad as the 12's.


--
Stay Charged!
Hump
"If you don't "believe" you'll make a difference, than you probably never
will!" -- Jim Husted





Nawaz Qureshi 
Vice-President of Engineering 
U.S. Battery Mfg. Co. 
1675 Sampson Avenue 
Corona, CA 92879-1889 
[email protected] 
T: 951-371-8090 
Fax: 951-371-4671 
Making the simple complicated is commonplace; making the complicated simple,
awesomely simple, that's creativity - Charles Mingus


_______________________________________________
For subscription options, see
http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Trojan battery choice: Plans changed*

Hi Nawaz,

This brings up the question, what is cycle? In my case I charge at 
work and then again at home. I use about 40ah each leg of my commute 
with US 225s.

What would produce the longest battery life (days commuting)?
1) discharging 40ah on the way to work, charging, discharging 40ah on 
the way home and charging.
2) discharging 80ah (seems pretty close to the edge given my 160amp 
draw on the freeway) and then charging at home.
3) discharging 40ah on the way to work, putting say 20ah back in, 
discharging 40ah (total of 60ah) on the way home and then doing a 
complete charge

Is it the last 20% of charge the determines life? I've been getting 24 
months (about 1000 cycles) on a pack but this one's dying at about 20 
months.

thanks,
Steve



-----Original Message-----
From: Nawaz Qureshi <[email protected]>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Fri, 4 Jan 2008 1:42 pm
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Trojan battery choice: Plans changed




It is a misconception that higher current (Amperes) draws shorten the
battery life.
Perhaps it is because some people confuse Ampere-Hours (a unit of 
capacity)
with Amperes or Amps (a unit of current).
If you use more Ampere-Hours per cycle (a deeper discharge) then you are
working the battery more and will give fewer cycles vs. shallower 
discharge
cycles. However, if you draw higher current (amperes) the depth of 
discharge
is shallower because the DOD is an inverse function of the rate of
discharge. Therefore, it should result in more cycles. For instance, if 
you
consider car starting batteries, they deliver thousands of cycle during
their life because the current draw is hundreds of Amperes for short 
periods
of time (i.e. very shallow DOD). Obviously, the higher current draw 
does not
reduce their life.
On the other hand, 800 cycles in a golf car are considered very good 
because
they are discharged more deeply per cycle.
Bottom line: Higher current draws do not reduce deep cycle battery life,
higher depth of discharge (Ah) does.

Nawaz Qureshi
US Battery

Message: 12
Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2008 8:45:18 -0700
From: Tim Humphrey <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Trojan battery choice: Plans changed
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <[email protected]>
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"


On Thu, 3 Jan 2008 22:55:34 -0800 (PST), Steve Kobb <[email protected]> 


> wrote:
> >
> > In a recent thread on Alternators and A/C, I mentioned that I would be
> > using
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Trojan battery choice: Plans changed*

Generally, the lifetime of lead acid batteries is measured in total AH
throughput -- and this is a function of DOD -- e.g. if you do 20% DOD,
you might get 10,000AH -- which might be 1000 cycles of 10AH each
(assuming these theoretical batteries are 50AH rated capacity), but
if you do 80% DOD you might only get 4,000AH (which is only 100
cycles). You'll have to get the actual graph of AH throughput vs DOD
for your particular batteries, but in general, the shallower the
cycles, the better, even if there are more of them.

Z



> <[email protected]> wrote:
> > Hi Nawaz,
> >
> > This brings up the question, what is cycle? In my case I charge at
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Trojan battery choice: Plans changed*

Great advice Nawaz,

I actually can confirm what you said.

My first battery pack (US battery 2300) when my car was 96 volts (15 
years ago) lasted 5 years and I got 16,000 miles out of it which 
isn't bad for a newbie on a first battery pack.

I recall the pack pulling 400 amps going up hills and starting from a 
standing stop but that didn't seem to have any effect on the 
lifespan. I had a K&W charger for that pack.

My gas powered Astro Conversion Van loaded with a bunch of electrical 
gizmos is still using the same OEM battery when I bought the van in 
February 2000. Obviously, pulling alot of amps to start the van 
hasn't affected the lifespan.

I'm not having as good of luck with my 8-volt HC batteries though at 
144 volts. They don't draw as many amps as my 6-volters did but they 
aren't lasting as long. I think the most I've pulled from them going 
up a hill is 300 amps max. But 3 years is my best lifespan with them. 
That could be a reflection of the charger settings which you gave me 
advice on before but I haven't been able to figure out how to adjust 
the charger, an old Zivan K2. It has 3 pots buried deep inside the 
case which requires a long thin screwdriver to adjust. I think it's 
the finish charge adjustment I'm not able to calibrate correctly. I 
have it set to 168 volts but must be getting something else set wrong.

But your advice does seem to go with what I've seen before, on 
properly charged batteries.

Chip





> [email protected] wrote:
> 
> > Message: 9
> > Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2008 13:42:28 -0800
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Trojan battery choice: Plans changed*



> Chip Gribben <[email protected]> wrote:
> ack.
> >
> > My gas powered Astro Conversion Van loaded with a bunch of electrical
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Trojan battery choice: Plans changed*

Your astro also has an alternator that runs the electronic gizmos..the battery just feeds the system when the engine is off....
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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Trojan battery choice: Plans changed*



> "Nawaz Qureshi" <[email protected]> wrote:
> >
> >
> > It is a misconception that higher current (Amperes) draws shorten the
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Trojan battery choice: Plans changed*



> Nawaz Qureshi <[email protected]> wrote:
> >
> >Nawaz,
> First you said:
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Trojan battery choice: Plans changed*

storm connors wrote:

>


> Nawaz Qureshi <[email protected]> wrote:
> > >
> > >Nawaz,
> > First you said:
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Trojan battery choice: Plans changed*

Please note
My input, the first part was to clarify the second part "and then at the end
you said" which was from Tim Humphrey.

Nawaz



> Nawaz Qureshi <[email protected]> wrote:
> >
> >Nawaz,
> First you said:
> ...


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