# [EVDL] LiFePO4 bulk battery purchase



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

The pricing per aHr is confusing to me - how do you translate that into =

price per cell, say, for LFP60AHA cells?


Joseph H. Strubhar

Web: www.gremcoinc.com

E-mail: [email protected]

----- Original Message ----- =

From: "Rick Randazzo" <[email protected]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, March 31, 2009 5:12 AM
Subject: [EVDL] LiFePO4 bulk battery purchase


Hi All,

My name is Rick Randazzo and I live in Guangzhou, China.



Several weeks ago I posted a message that I wanted to get together a bulk
order to help get a low price for LiFePO4 batteries. I had good initial
response so I talked to several factories and shipping agents and this is
what I have:



I have a quote for $1.10 per Ah from Thundersky.



I must purchase 100,000ah to get this price.



I plan to test each battery by charging them, make sure they hold the
charge, and then discharge them at about 1C. Not any real fancy testing but
enough to make sure they are functional before shipping. This way if I find
any duds, I can carry them back to the factory gate and enforce what I
consider to be the first part of the warranty. As far as the rest of the
warranty (if any fail over time), I plan to establish a central location to
handle this and it will most likely be in Atlanta, GA since that is where my
family is and I hope to be back and forth there frequently.



I will not offer a BMS at this time. But will try to help people get them if
they want and if many people are interested then I will try to put some kind
of bulk order together. I think most people that order these batteries have
enough knowledge to know how to build their own or get aftermarkets. Seems
there are many people working on this issue now and I really do hope to
partner with someone in the near future so we can offer a good deal there
also.



Shipping by sea is about $.05 per Ah and would take 30 days and this does
not include time to test. This does not cover the cost of overland shipping
fees. I am still trying to find out air freight. I had gotten quotes of $.12
per Ah but I think it is incorrect as there are special charges for shipping
batteries. (The LiFePO4 is a battery and considered hazardous even though we
all know that one of the main points is safety.) Air freight takes 2 or 3
days. I am trying to make sure there are no hidden fees I do not know about.




Payment terms=85. This is where it gets more tricky =96 right?

We need to use an escrow service to hold the money. The manufacturers
require 30% deposit then balance before shipping. I think I can do the same
or maybe a little better. I hope to work it so the escrow service can wait
to release the balance when the batteries are received.



I hope to make this a monthly purchase and hope we can make the first
order/purchase in about 2 weeks from today. How about targeting April 15 as
the first purchase date?



I know there are still a lot of questions. And I expect this will not be
smooth or easy at first. But if it was easy, everyone would be doing
it. Please
feel free to contact me and ask anything.



This is the spec sheets for the TS 100Ah and 160Ah batteries:

http://www.thunder-sky.com/pdf/200871782241.pdf

http://www.thunder-sky.com/pdf/20092201189.pdf



Thanks,

Rick Randazzo

msn: [email protected]

skype: dazzor_2000
_______________________________________________
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Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
Archives: http://evdl.org/archive/
Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev



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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

the LFP60AHA is a 60Ah cell

$1.10 X 60Ah =3D $66 per cell

100Ah cell is $110
160Ah cell is $176
hope this helps

------------------


> joe <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> > The pricing per aHr is confusing to me - how do you translate that into
> > price per cell, say, for LFP60AHA cells?
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

I presume that Rick means per cell per Ah, so for a
100Ah cell you pay $1.10 x 100 = $110.
For a 160Ah cell $1.10 x 160 = $176
For a 160V (50 cells) 100Ah pack you shell out
50 x 100 x $1.10 = $5,500

Then add shipping and other costs...
(I presume that the testing, handling, warranty, ...
also has its value!)


Cor van de Water
Director HW & Systems Architecture Group
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
Email: [email protected] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [email protected]
Tel: +1 408 383 7626 magicJack: +1 408 844 3932
Tel: +91 (040)23117400 x203 XoIP: +31877841130

Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail.
-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On
Behalf Of joe
Sent: Tuesday, March 31, 2009 6:39 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] LiFePO4 bulk battery purchase

The pricing per aHr is confusing to me - how do you translate that into 
price per cell, say, for LFP60AHA cells?


Joseph H. Strubhar

Web: www.gremcoinc.com

E-mail: [email protected]

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Rick Randazzo" <[email protected]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, March 31, 2009 5:12 AM
Subject: [EVDL] LiFePO4 bulk battery purchase


Hi All,

My name is Rick Randazzo and I live in Guangzhou, China.



Several weeks ago I posted a message that I wanted to get together a
bulk
order to help get a low price for LiFePO4 batteries. I had good initial
response so I talked to several factories and shipping agents and this
is
what I have:



I have a quote for $1.10 per Ah from Thundersky.



I must purchase 100,000ah to get this price.



I plan to test each battery by charging them, make sure they hold the
charge, and then discharge them at about 1C. Not any real fancy testing
but
enough to make sure they are functional before shipping. This way if I
find
any duds, I can carry them back to the factory gate and enforce what I
consider to be the first part of the warranty. As far as the rest of the
warranty (if any fail over time), I plan to establish a central location
to
handle this and it will most likely be in Atlanta, GA since that is
where my
family is and I hope to be back and forth there frequently.



I will not offer a BMS at this time. But will try to help people get
them if
they want and if many people are interested then I will try to put some
kind
of bulk order together. I think most people that order these batteries
have
enough knowledge to know how to build their own or get aftermarkets.
Seems
there are many people working on this issue now and I really do hope to
partner with someone in the near future so we can offer a good deal
there
also.



Shipping by sea is about $.05 per Ah and would take 30 days and this
does
not include time to test. This does not cover the cost of overland
shipping
fees. I am still trying to find out air freight. I had gotten quotes of
$.12
per Ah but I think it is incorrect as there are special charges for
shipping
batteries. (The LiFePO4 is a battery and considered hazardous even
though we
all know that one of the main points is safety.) Air freight takes 2 or
3
days. I am trying to make sure there are no hidden fees I do not know
about.




Payment terms.... This is where it gets more tricky - right?

We need to use an escrow service to hold the money. The manufacturers
require 30% deposit then balance before shipping. I think I can do the
same
or maybe a little better. I hope to work it so the escrow service can
wait
to release the balance when the batteries are received.



I hope to make this a monthly purchase and hope we can make the first
order/purchase in about 2 weeks from today. How about targeting April 15
as
the first purchase date?



I know there are still a lot of questions. And I expect this will not be
smooth or easy at first. But if it was easy, everyone would be doing
it. Please
feel free to contact me and ask anything.



This is the spec sheets for the TS 100Ah and 160Ah batteries:

http://www.thunder-sky.com/pdf/200871782241.pdf

http://www.thunder-sky.com/pdf/20092201189.pdf



Thanks,

Rick Randazzo

msn: [email protected]

skype: dazzor_2000
_______________________________________________
General EVDL support: http://evdl.org/help/
Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
Archives: http://evdl.org/archive/
Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev



------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------



No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 8.0.238 / Virus Database: 270.11.32/2030 - Release Date:
03/30/09 
08:40:00

_______________________________________________
General EVDL support: http://evdl.org/help/
Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
Archives: http://evdl.org/archive/
Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev


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General EVDL support: http://evdl.org/help/
Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
Archives: http://evdl.org/archive/
Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> joe <[email protected]> wrote:
> > The pricing per aHr is confusing to me - how do you translate that into
> > price per cell, say, for LFP60AHA cells?
> 
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Note that the 100Ah cell data sheet has a 90Ah capacity curve. Is =

this really just a 90Ah cell renamed 100Ah, or is at a typo?



> Rick Randazzo wrote:
> 
> > the LFP60AHA is a 60Ah cell
> >
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Gads - no telling what the real value is. You tested the Ecity, but not a
TS? I will talk to them and get more information regarding thier warenty and
how i can enforce it.

The best i could get with Ecity is $1.35/Ah. They were hard to talk to...



On Tue, Mar 31, 2009 at 9:49 PM, Roger Heuckeroth <[email protected]>w=
rote:

> Note that the 100Ah cell data sheet has a 90Ah capacity curve. Is
> this really just a 90Ah cell renamed 100Ah, or is at a typo?
>
>


> Rick Randazzo wrote:
> >
> > > the LFP60AHA is a 60Ah cell
> > >
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

I have not tested TS, however, the Ecity cell I tested exceeded the =

100 Ah spec. So if you pay $1.10 per Ah for a 100 Ah cell and only =

get 90 Ah out, verses paying $1.35 and getting 110 Ah out... Your =

actually paying the same amount per Ah.

One thing that smells fishy to me is the curves they show on their =

data sheets. To me they look "theoretical" instead of results from an =

actual test. At least based on my limited experience testing Ecity =

and Headway cells.

One thing is they charge to 4.25V. They choose to top off their cells =

higher than all the other LiFePO4 manufacturers that I have come =

across. There could be two explanations. One is that they are using =

a different chemistry from everyone else. I kind of doubt that. Two =

is that they are intentionally overcharging a bit to squeeze a bit =

more Ah capacity out of their cells. If that is so, I think that =

can't be healthy for the cells.

Their curves show that the surface charge takes almost 10 minutes to =

settle down to the steady state charge. That has not been the case on =

the cells I have tested. The surface charge falls off at 1 C within =

the first 1-2 minutes. So, real of fictitious?

Another thing, their CV charge period looks like it takes more than 1 =

hour for the current to drop to less than 1A. That's not what I see =

at all on the cells I have tested. It takes 10-20 minutes for it to =

fall down to 1-2A after the charger enters CV mode. This could be a =

function of the higher charging voltage that they specify, but is that =

prolonged CV period good for the cells.

So, are TS cells so different from the others, or is it all smoke and =

mirrors... or as Lee would say "there are liars, damn liars and then =

there are battery salesmen"





> Rick Randazzo wrote:
> 
> > Gads - no telling what the real value is. You tested the Ecity, but =
> 
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Thanks, all!

Joseph H. Strubhar

Web: www.gremcoinc.com

E-mail: [email protected]

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Cor van de Water" <[email protected]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, March 31, 2009 6:24 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] LiFePO4 bulk battery purchase


>I presume that Rick means per cell per Ah, so for a
> 100Ah cell you pay $1.10 x 100 = $110.
> For a 160Ah cell $1.10 x 160 = $176
> For a 160V (50 cells) 100Ah pack you shell out
> 50 x 100 x $1.10 = $5,500
>
> Then add shipping and other costs...
> (I presume that the testing, handling, warranty, ...
> also has its value!)
>
>
> Cor van de Water
> Director HW & Systems Architecture Group
> Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
> Email: [email protected] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
> Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [email protected]
> Tel: +1 408 383 7626 magicJack: +1 408 844 3932
> Tel: +91 (040)23117400 x203 XoIP: +31877841130
>
> Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail.
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On
> Behalf Of joe
> Sent: Tuesday, March 31, 2009 6:39 PM
> To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] LiFePO4 bulk battery purchase
>
> The pricing per aHr is confusing to me - how do you translate that into
> price per cell, say, for LFP60AHA cells?
>
>
> Joseph H. Strubhar
>
> Web: www.gremcoinc.com
>
> E-mail: [email protected]
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Rick Randazzo" <[email protected]>
> To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
> Sent: Tuesday, March 31, 2009 5:12 AM
> Subject: [EVDL] LiFePO4 bulk battery purchase
>
>
> Hi All,
>
> My name is Rick Randazzo and I live in Guangzhou, China.
>
>
>
> Several weeks ago I posted a message that I wanted to get together a
> bulk
> order to help get a low price for LiFePO4 batteries. I had good initial
> response so I talked to several factories and shipping agents and this
> is
> what I have:
>
>
>
> I have a quote for $1.10 per Ah from Thundersky.
>
>
>
> I must purchase 100,000ah to get this price.
>
>
>
> I plan to test each battery by charging them, make sure they hold the
> charge, and then discharge them at about 1C. Not any real fancy testing
> but
> enough to make sure they are functional before shipping. This way if I
> find
> any duds, I can carry them back to the factory gate and enforce what I
> consider to be the first part of the warranty. As far as the rest of the
> warranty (if any fail over time), I plan to establish a central location
> to
> handle this and it will most likely be in Atlanta, GA since that is
> where my
> family is and I hope to be back and forth there frequently.
>
>
>
> I will not offer a BMS at this time. But will try to help people get
> them if
> they want and if many people are interested then I will try to put some
> kind
> of bulk order together. I think most people that order these batteries
> have
> enough knowledge to know how to build their own or get aftermarkets.
> Seems
> there are many people working on this issue now and I really do hope to
> partner with someone in the near future so we can offer a good deal
> there
> also.
>
>
>
> Shipping by sea is about $.05 per Ah and would take 30 days and this
> does
> not include time to test. This does not cover the cost of overland
> shipping
> fees. I am still trying to find out air freight. I had gotten quotes of
> $.12
> per Ah but I think it is incorrect as there are special charges for
> shipping
> batteries. (The LiFePO4 is a battery and considered hazardous even
> though we
> all know that one of the main points is safety.) Air freight takes 2 or
> 3
> days. I am trying to make sure there are no hidden fees I do not know
> about.
>
>
>
>
> Payment terms.... This is where it gets more tricky - right?
>
> We need to use an escrow service to hold the money. The manufacturers
> require 30% deposit then balance before shipping. I think I can do the
> same
> or maybe a little better. I hope to work it so the escrow service can
> wait
> to release the balance when the batteries are received.
>
>
>
> I hope to make this a monthly purchase and hope we can make the first
> order/purchase in about 2 weeks from today. How about targeting April 15
> as
> the first purchase date?
>
>
>
> I know there are still a lot of questions. And I expect this will not be
> smooth or easy at first. But if it was easy, everyone would be doing
> it. Please
> feel free to contact me and ask anything.
>
>
>
> This is the spec sheets for the TS 100Ah and 160Ah batteries:
>
> http://www.thunder-sky.com/pdf/200871782241.pdf
>
> http://www.thunder-sky.com/pdf/20092201189.pdf
>
>
>
> Thanks,
>
> Rick Randazzo
>
> msn: [email protected]
>
> skype: dazzor_2000
> _______________________________________________
> General EVDL support: http://evdl.org/help/
> Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
> Archives: http://evdl.org/archive/
> Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
>
>
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
> Version: 8.0.238 / Virus Database: 270.11.32/2030 - Release Date:
> 03/30/09
> 08:40:00
>
> _______________________________________________
> General EVDL support: http://evdl.org/help/
> Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
> Archives: http://evdl.org/archive/
> Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> General EVDL support: http://evdl.org/help/
> Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
> Archives: http://evdl.org/archive/
> Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 8.0.238 / Virus Database: 270.11.34/2032 - Release Date: 03/31/09 
06:02:00

_______________________________________________
General EVDL support: http://evdl.org/help/
Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
Archives: http://evdl.org/archive/
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----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

The questions I should have asked from the start is -

Does everyone want a cheap TS battery or would you rather have the more
expensive Ecity?

the quote i have for Ecity is $1.35...
so -
40 - 160Ah cells at $1.10 =3D $7040
40 - 160Ah cells at $1.35 =3D $8640

please let me know what you think....

let's have a vote....
--------------------------

On Wed, Apr 1, 2009 at 12:33 AM, Roger Heuckeroth <[email protected]>w=
rote:

> I have not tested TS, however, the Ecity cell I tested exceeded the
> 100 Ah spec. So if you pay $1.10 per Ah for a 100 Ah cell and only
> get 90 Ah out, verses paying $1.35 and getting 110 Ah out... Your
> actually paying the same amount per Ah.
>
> One thing that smells fishy to me is the curves they show on their
> data sheets. To me they look "theoretical" instead of results from an
> actual test. At least based on my limited experience testing Ecity
> and Headway cells.
>
> One thing is they charge to 4.25V. They choose to top off their cells
> higher than all the other LiFePO4 manufacturers that I have come
> across. There could be two explanations. One is that they are using
> a different chemistry from everyone else. I kind of doubt that. Two
> is that they are intentionally overcharging a bit to squeeze a bit
> more Ah capacity out of their cells. If that is so, I think that
> can't be healthy for the cells.
>
> Their curves show that the surface charge takes almost 10 minutes to
> settle down to the steady state charge. That has not been the case on
> the cells I have tested. The surface charge falls off at 1 C within
> the first 1-2 minutes. So, real of fictitious?
>
> Another thing, their CV charge period looks like it takes more than 1
> hour for the current to drop to less than 1A. That's not what I see
> at all on the cells I have tested. It takes 10-20 minutes for it to
> fall down to 1-2A after the charger enters CV mode. This could be a
> function of the higher charging voltage that they specify, but is that
> prolonged CV period good for the cells.
>
> So, are TS cells so different from the others, or is it all smoke and
> mirrors... or as Lee would say "there are liars, damn liars and then
> there are battery salesmen"
>
>
>
>


> Rick Randazzo wrote:
> >
> > > Gads - no telling what the real value is. You tested the Ecity, but
> > > not a
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Rick Randazzo wrote:
> > The questions I should have asked from the start is -
> >
> > Does everyone want a cheap TS battery or would you rather have the more
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

The problem with supplying a BMS is that in order to
avoid over-charging, you need to talk to the *charger*
so now you have either an external dependency and a
host of different interfaces to the chargers out there
or you need to also supply a charger with a host of
different AC and DC voltage requirements.....

When I organised a battery bulk buy, I did not
require any statement of the buyers how they were
going to use these AGMs, but I can imagine that when
buying Li-Ion that the seller wants buyers to sign a
statement to the effect that he is not responsible
for any abuse they are put through by not adhering
to the requirements of charge/discharge including 
use of BMS which monitors each cell and appropriate
charger *and a LVD* (Low Voltage Disconnect/Detector)
which avoids over-dis-charge.

Just a thought.

Cor van de Water
Director HW & Systems Architecture Group
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
Email: [email protected] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [email protected]
Tel: +1 408 383 7626 magicJack: +1 408 844 3932
Tel: +91 (040)23117400 x203 XoIP: +31877841130

Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail.
-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On
Behalf Of Lee Hart
Sent: Wednesday, April 01, 2009 9:03 AM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] LiFePO4 bulk battery purchase



> Rick Randazzo wrote:
> > The questions I should have asked from the start is -
> >
> > Does everyone want a cheap TS battery or would you rather have the
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Maybe I am a little naive on this issue but I tend to give people the
benifit of the doubt. I really believe most of the people are half
intellegent and honest. Especially if you are buliding something that does
have a degree of sophistication. Maybe there will be people that flat out
abuse the warranty but mostly i think what will be seen are actual problems
or honest mistakes (god i have made a few). I am sure doing a "battery
wholesale business" (and that is what i feel i am getting into here -
"direct to the public") is going to be opening a whole new can of worms, but
I feel that it will work out and prove good for everyone.

thanks,
Rick



> Cor van de Water <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> > The problem with supplying a BMS is that in order to
> > avoid over-charging, you need to talk to the *charger*
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Hi Rick,

I *want* you to be successful,
that is why I suggest you request your buyers to confirm that
they agree to the terms as I outlined below, I do not know what is
the easiest to handle it - sign a paper, scan and email?
Or have a clause that by ordering from you you also agree to.....

BTW, do not forget to put a little margin in for yourself, your work
and time and effort and possibly some issues with warrantee that
are not properly straightened out and you will need to absorb.

Since you started this, I am actually thinking about converting
an EV to Lithium iso lead! 

Regards,

Cor van de Water
Director HW & Systems Architecture Group
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
Email: [email protected] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [email protected]
Tel: +1 408 383 7626 magicJack: +1 408 844 3932
Tel: +91 (040)23117400 x203 XoIP: +31877841130

Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail.
-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On
Behalf Of Rick Randazzo
Sent: Wednesday, April 01, 2009 11:59 AM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] LiFePO4 bulk battery purchase

Maybe I am a little naive on this issue but I tend to give people the
benifit of the doubt. I really believe most of the people are half
intellegent and honest. Especially if you are buliding something that
does
have a degree of sophistication. Maybe there will be people that flat
out
abuse the warranty but mostly i think what will be seen are actual
problems
or honest mistakes (god i have made a few). I am sure doing a "battery
wholesale business" (and that is what i feel i am getting into here -
"direct to the public") is going to be opening a whole new can of worms,
but
I feel that it will work out and prove good for everyone.

thanks,
Rick

On Wed, Apr 1, 2009 at 2:11 PM, Cor van de Water <[email protected]>


> wrote:
> 
> > The problem with supplying a BMS is that in order to
> > avoid over-charging, you need to talk to the *charger*
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Lee Hart wrote:
> >
> > My opinion: People who don't know what they're doing buy on the basis of
> > price only (i.e. the cheapest is the best). Most people are
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Rick,
I know it's information that can be found,
but it would be helpful to mention the voltage,
so that people can calculate total pack cost.

For the prices mentioned, I would seriously
consider Lion, as it would mean the difference
between needing my hybrid to get to work
vs. using my (hopefully soon-to-be-) EV.

It's just about time for me to be shopping
for batteries.

Seth

_______________________________________________
General EVDL support: http://evdl.org/help/
Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
Archives: http://evdl.org/archive/
Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

By the way, SINCE we agree that it would be unwise
to use LIon without a BMS....is there anyone who has
a BMS for them? Maybe a modular one ? I think
there have been 2 people on the list who
offer or described individual battery charge regulators
for Lead Acid.

If we're going to buy hundreds of cells,
maybe we could get a bulk purchase of
regulators? Seems like a business opportunity.

Thanks
Seth

_______________________________________________
General EVDL support: http://evdl.org/help/
Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
Archives: http://evdl.org/archive/
Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

I will talk to TS about what they offer. BMS and Chargers and get back with
you. I was thinking someone in the group might like to jump in on this.




> Seth Rothenberg <[email protected]>wrote:
> 
> > By the way, SINCE we agree that it would be unwise
> > to use LIon without a BMS....is there anyone who has
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

the voltage on the LiFePO4 batteries are 3.2 volts. (there abouts...)

http://www.thunder-sky.com/pdf/200931791117.pdf
they tell you the max and min but not the working voltage...

if you need more help you can add your specifications here. I think everyone
in the group would be happy to put in their 2cents.

Thanks ,
Rick



> Seth Rothenberg <[email protected]>wrote:
> 
> > Rick,
> > I know it's information that can be found,
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Rick Randazzo wrote:
> > Maybe I am a little naive on this issue but I tend to give people the
> > benefit of the doubt. I really believe most of the people are half
> > intelligent and honest.
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Consider lead Acid vs Lithium Iron Phosphate:

Flooded Lead Acid:
T-145 delivers 260 ah @ 6 volts 
Kwh = 1,560, Weight = 72 lbs, approx size 800 cu in
List Price ea = 169.00

Lithium Iron Phosphate:
Battery 200 A/h 3.2 Volt Single Cell China HiPower 200ah @ 3.2volt
Kwh = 640, weigh = 15.5 lbs, approx size 250 cu in
List Price $450

Analysis:
Cost per kwh storage
Lead acid = $0.10 / kwh 
Lithium Iron Phosphate= $.70 / kwh
Lead acid is 85% cheaper per kwh

Weight per volt
Lead acid = 12lbs
Lithium Iron Phosphate= 4.84lbs
Lead acid is 247% heavier

Size per volt cu in
Lead acid = 133.33 cu / volt
Lithium Iron Phosphate= 78 cu in / volt 
Lead acid 170% larger

Conclusions:
Lithium Iron Phosphate is:
Over 50% lighter than flooded lead acid
Nearly 50% smaller than flooded lead acid
Lithium Iron Phosphate 4-7 time more expensive

Other items to consider (so I understand?)
Lithium Iron Phosphate has a "softer" initial voltage than lead acid
(initial voltage drop when load applied is greater, but it hold steadier
from this point on) - using 3.2 volts per cell, use 3 volts to size & set
discharge limit at 2.7...

Lithium Iron Phosphate discharges and does not charge at freezing, may
damage at 600+ amps continous, creates heat during use, but does not gas
(unless the 600+ amps is exceeded). Consider good ventilation, temperature
controls, and good monitoring system... 








David Oberlander
Dodson Services Electrical Contractors, Inc.
[email protected]
Ofc: 972-235-0881x103
Mbl: 469-867-0834

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf
Of Rick Randazzo
Sent: Wednesday, April 01, 2009 10:16 AM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] LiFePO4 bulk battery purchase

the voltage on the LiFePO4 batteries are 3.2 volts. (there abouts...)

http://www.thunder-sky.com/pdf/200931791117.pdf
they tell you the max and min but not the working voltage...

if you need more help you can add your specifications here. I think everyone
in the group would be happy to put in their 2cents.

Thanks ,
Rick

On Wed, Apr 1, 2009 at 10:26 PM, Seth Rothenberg


> <[email protected]>wrote:
> 
> > Rick,
> > I know it's information that can be found,
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Rick Randazzo wrote:
> > I think I have gotten enough positive feedback to decide that we will stick
> > with TS at this time. People using the TS batteries seem to be very happy
> > with them these days. They gave me the low quote and they are very near me.
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

You don't get 260Ah out of a T-145 at the 1hr rate (more like 50%),
you do get full capacity out of LiFePO4 at the 1hr rate so your
comparison is off.

You also need to consider the cost per kwhr delivered over the life of
the battery. If you are to believe the cycle life that most LiFePO4
cell manufacturers state then they start to look very attractive.

To be fair you also need to consider the cost of the BMS when going
with lithium.

Weight/size per volt is meaningless if you don't compare equal
capacity cells. Weight per usable kWhr would be better

On Wed, Apr 1, 2009 at 9:32 AM, David Oberlander


> <[email protected]> wrote:
> > Consider lead Acid vs Lithium Iron Phosphate:
> >
> > Flooded Lead Acid:
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

200AH for US$450 is a fairly old price (unless you are planning on buying
just a couple)
They go for around US$270 now (the price in the bulk buy)

They're soft in comparison to high end AGMs, not floodeds.
2.7v (5.4v for two cells) is what to expect at 3C (600A for a 200AH cell).
How far does a T-145 sag at 600A?

No way does a T-145 deliver 260AH at EV discharge rates. 
Even at 75A, they are only rated to [email protected]
If you are going to compare price, compare usable capacity.
US$169 in flooded gets you [email protected] (US$1.76/AH at 6v)
US$540 in LiFePO4 gets you [email protected] (US$3.37/AH at 6v)

It gets even more complicated when modeling reduced capacity when getting
close to end of service life.
In my application, using AGMs with a BMS (and the AGMs getting rated cycle
life) I would be half way through my second set. My lifepo4 setup still
gives me more range than a brand new pack of agms (of the same 1hr AH
rating, mainly because I discharge at the 0.66hr rating). 
In reality, based on past AGM performance in my application, I would be at
the end of my 3rd set.
Not having to live with declining range 3x as often has a value of its own.

The lithium price is tempting, as in some applications, a floodeds pack
service life is less than 2 years (discharge rates higher than 0.25C
continuous, 1.5C peak).
For those who can keep the amps down, and do get long service lives out of
their flooded packs (4 years+), lithium isnt viable yet.
For those of us who need the higher discharge rates we choose between AGMs
and lithiums (or murder a flooded set).

I know from first hand experience, that pulling 1.5C continuous, 4C peak you
will get more than 400cycles to 80%dod (actually more like 800 cycles to
40%dod is what ive done).
I also know, at this many cycles with this kind of treatment, you will have
more than 80% of original capacity left.

Temperature is not a problem you are going to run into, unless you are
really pushing those cells.
600A+ continuous (minutes, not seconds) is pushing these cells very hard.
200A continuous isnt pushing them hard at all
A t-145 cant do that either (actually, for long life, it shouldn't do 600A
*ever*)

The worst these cells do when abused is bulge. The only time you need
ventilation, is when the casing is compromised by some outside force (car
accident?). In this situation, ventialation is a side effect of your car no
longer being intact.
Theres no hydrogen to collect. The electrolyte in the lifepo4 cells sure
arent good for you, but then again, neither is petrol or sulfuric acid. The
only time you would come in contact with enough of either to be a problem,
would be in a major accident.

A BMS (balancing function, over voltage limit, under voltage limit) is
necessary for long service life (not safety). I bought my BMS from
www.evpower.com.au
Simple 0.7A shunt starting at 3.6v, with forced charger disconnect if any
cell goes above 4.2v.
Also gives annoying buzz if any cell stays below 2.5v for too long (nothings
worse than having a dead car in the middle of traffic just because some
modules decided to think for you)
You need to manually balance the pack the first time round (unless you are
patient, in which case just charge at 0.7A)
After that, the pack stays in balance well enough that the over voltage isnt
tripped before full charge is reached (even when charging 200AH cells at
30A).
The 0.7A shunts are only meant to maintain the balanced state.
That BMS cost AUS$17.50/cell + AUS$300 for the master unit (the one with the
charger relay and annoying buzzer).

So back to the original comparison.
You could get a pack of say 144v T-145s forUS$4056+charger
And get [email protected] assuming you draw 75A(10.8kw) continuous or less
At 75A continuous, 300A peak, you might see 3-4 years
At 100A continuous, 4-500A peak, you might see 1-2years.

Or you could get a 144v 200AH (45 cells) pack of lifepo4+BMS for
US$12825+charger
And get [email protected] assuming you draw 75A continuous.
Or [email protected] at 200A continuous.
At >150A continuous, >600A peak, at the end of 2 years you still have more
than 80% of original capacity remaining (the 2 year old packs I have seen
are above 80% of original).
Its just a shame a few 2 year old packs are the only ones I know of (my own
has only seen 15 months of use)

Matt


-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf
Of David Oberlander
Sent: Thursday, 2 April 2009 12:32 AM
To: 'Electric Vehicle Discussion List'
Subject: Re: [EVDL] LiFePO4 bulk battery purchase

Consider lead Acid vs Lithium Iron Phosphate:

Flooded Lead Acid:
T-145 delivers 260 ah @ 6 volts
Kwh = 1,560, Weight = 72 lbs, approx size 800 cu in List Price ea = 169.00

Lithium Iron Phosphate:
Battery 200 A/h 3.2 Volt Single Cell China HiPower 200ah @ 3.2volt Kwh =
640, weigh = 15.5 lbs, approx size 250 cu in List Price $450

Analysis:
Cost per kwh storage
Lead acid = $0.10 / kwh
Lithium Iron Phosphate= $.70 / kwh
Lead acid is 85% cheaper per kwh

Weight per volt
Lead acid = 12lbs
Lithium Iron Phosphate= 4.84lbs
Lead acid is 247% heavier

Size per volt cu in
Lead acid = 133.33 cu / volt
Lithium Iron Phosphate= 78 cu in / volt Lead acid 170% larger

Conclusions:
Lithium Iron Phosphate is:
Over 50% lighter than flooded lead acid
Nearly 50% smaller than flooded lead acid Lithium Iron Phosphate 4-7 time
more expensive

Other items to consider (so I understand?) Lithium Iron Phosphate has a
"softer" initial voltage than lead acid (initial voltage drop when load
applied is greater, but it hold steadier from this point on) - using 3.2
volts per cell, use 3 volts to size & set discharge limit at 2.7...

Lithium Iron Phosphate discharges and does not charge at freezing, may
damage at 600+ amps continous, creates heat during use, but does not gas
(unless the 600+ amps is exceeded). Consider good ventilation, temperature
controls, and good monitoring system... 








David Oberlander
Dodson Services Electrical Contractors, Inc.
[email protected]
Ofc: 972-235-0881x103
Mbl: 469-867-0834

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf
Of Rick Randazzo
Sent: Wednesday, April 01, 2009 10:16 AM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] LiFePO4 bulk battery purchase

the voltage on the LiFePO4 batteries are 3.2 volts. (there abouts...)

http://www.thunder-sky.com/pdf/200931791117.pdf
they tell you the max and min but not the working voltage...

if you need more help you can add your specifications here. I think everyone
in the group would be happy to put in their 2cents.

Thanks ,
Rick

On Wed, Apr 1, 2009 at 10:26 PM, Seth Rothenberg


> <[email protected]>wrote:
> 
> > Rick,
> > I know it's information that can be found, but it would be helpful to
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Lee Hart wrote:
> 
> > Rick Randazzo wrote:
> >> I think I have gotten enough positive feedback to decide that we
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

6V Flooded Golf cart batteries tend to sag about 3-4 mV per Amp
due to their internal resistance which is about double the sag
per cell of the same size (half the Ah) 12V AGMs.
(my 110 Ah 12V AGM had internal resistance 4 mOhms or 0.67 mOhm
per cell while I measured an EVs Golf Cart batteries sag from
6 to 4.5V on a 420A (max current) draw which is approx 1.2 mOhm
while the cells are more than twice as large, so floodeds have
about four times the internal resistance for the same Ah
capacity battery cells as AGMs.

Regards,

Cor van de Water
Director HW & Systems Architecture Group
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
Email: [email protected] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [email protected]
Tel: +1 408 383 7626 magicJack: +1 408 844 3932
Tel: +91 (040)23117400 x203 XoIP: +31877841130

Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail.
-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On
Behalf Of matt
Sent: Wednesday, April 01, 2009 11:28 PM
To: 'Electric Vehicle Discussion List'
Subject: Re: [EVDL] LiFePO4 bulk battery purchase

200AH for US$450 is a fairly old price (unless you are planning on
buying
just a couple)
They go for around US$270 now (the price in the bulk buy)

They're soft in comparison to high end AGMs, not floodeds.
2.7v (5.4v for two cells) is what to expect at 3C (600A for a 200AH
cell).
How far does a T-145 sag at 600A?

No way does a T-145 deliver 260AH at EV discharge rates. 
Even at 75A, they are only rated to [email protected]
If you are going to compare price, compare usable capacity.
US$169 in flooded gets you [email protected] (US$1.76/AH at 6v)
US$540 in LiFePO4 gets you [email protected] (US$3.37/AH at 6v)

It gets even more complicated when modeling reduced capacity when
getting
close to end of service life.
In my application, using AGMs with a BMS (and the AGMs getting rated
cycle
life) I would be half way through my second set. My lifepo4 setup still
gives me more range than a brand new pack of agms (of the same 1hr AH
rating, mainly because I discharge at the 0.66hr rating). 
In reality, based on past AGM performance in my application, I would be
at
the end of my 3rd set.
Not having to live with declining range 3x as often has a value of its
own.

The lithium price is tempting, as in some applications, a floodeds pack
service life is less than 2 years (discharge rates higher than 0.25C
continuous, 1.5C peak).
For those who can keep the amps down, and do get long service lives out
of
their flooded packs (4 years+), lithium isnt viable yet.
For those of us who need the higher discharge rates we choose between
AGMs
and lithiums (or murder a flooded set).

I know from first hand experience, that pulling 1.5C continuous, 4C peak
you
will get more than 400cycles to 80%dod (actually more like 800 cycles to
40%dod is what ive done).
I also know, at this many cycles with this kind of treatment, you will
have
more than 80% of original capacity left.

Temperature is not a problem you are going to run into, unless you are
really pushing those cells.
600A+ continuous (minutes, not seconds) is pushing these cells very
hard.
200A continuous isnt pushing them hard at all
A t-145 cant do that either (actually, for long life, it shouldn't do
600A
*ever*)

The worst these cells do when abused is bulge. The only time you need
ventilation, is when the casing is compromised by some outside force
(car
accident?). In this situation, ventialation is a side effect of your car
no
longer being intact.
Theres no hydrogen to collect. The electrolyte in the lifepo4 cells sure
arent good for you, but then again, neither is petrol or sulfuric acid.
The
only time you would come in contact with enough of either to be a
problem,
would be in a major accident.

A BMS (balancing function, over voltage limit, under voltage limit) is
necessary for long service life (not safety). I bought my BMS from
www.evpower.com.au
Simple 0.7A shunt starting at 3.6v, with forced charger disconnect if
any
cell goes above 4.2v.
Also gives annoying buzz if any cell stays below 2.5v for too long
(nothings
worse than having a dead car in the middle of traffic just because some
modules decided to think for you)
You need to manually balance the pack the first time round (unless you
are
patient, in which case just charge at 0.7A)
After that, the pack stays in balance well enough that the over voltage
isnt
tripped before full charge is reached (even when charging 200AH cells at
30A).
The 0.7A shunts are only meant to maintain the balanced state.
That BMS cost AUS$17.50/cell + AUS$300 for the master unit (the one with
the
charger relay and annoying buzzer).

So back to the original comparison.
You could get a pack of say 144v T-145s forUS$4056+charger
And get [email protected] assuming you draw 75A(10.8kw) continuous or less
At 75A continuous, 300A peak, you might see 3-4 years
At 100A continuous, 4-500A peak, you might see 1-2years.

Or you could get a 144v 200AH (45 cells) pack of lifepo4+BMS for
US$12825+charger
And get [email protected] assuming you draw 75A continuous.
Or [email protected] at 200A continuous.
At >150A continuous, >600A peak, at the end of 2 years you still have
more
than 80% of original capacity remaining (the 2 year old packs I have
seen
are above 80% of original).
Its just a shame a few 2 year old packs are the only ones I know of (my
own
has only seen 15 months of use)

Matt


-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On
Behalf
Of David Oberlander
Sent: Thursday, 2 April 2009 12:32 AM
To: 'Electric Vehicle Discussion List'
Subject: Re: [EVDL] LiFePO4 bulk battery purchase

Consider lead Acid vs Lithium Iron Phosphate:

Flooded Lead Acid:
T-145 delivers 260 ah @ 6 volts
Kwh = 1,560, Weight = 72 lbs, approx size 800 cu in List Price ea =
169.00

Lithium Iron Phosphate:
Battery 200 A/h 3.2 Volt Single Cell China HiPower 200ah @ 3.2volt Kwh =
640, weigh = 15.5 lbs, approx size 250 cu in List Price $450

Analysis:
Cost per kwh storage
Lead acid = $0.10 / kwh
Lithium Iron Phosphate= $.70 / kwh
Lead acid is 85% cheaper per kwh

Weight per volt
Lead acid = 12lbs
Lithium Iron Phosphate= 4.84lbs
Lead acid is 247% heavier

Size per volt cu in
Lead acid = 133.33 cu / volt
Lithium Iron Phosphate= 78 cu in / volt Lead acid 170% larger

Conclusions:
Lithium Iron Phosphate is:
Over 50% lighter than flooded lead acid
Nearly 50% smaller than flooded lead acid Lithium Iron Phosphate 4-7
time
more expensive

Other items to consider (so I understand?) Lithium Iron Phosphate has a
"softer" initial voltage than lead acid (initial voltage drop when load
applied is greater, but it hold steadier from this point on) - using 3.2
volts per cell, use 3 volts to size & set discharge limit at 2.7...

Lithium Iron Phosphate discharges and does not charge at freezing, may
damage at 600+ amps continous, creates heat during use, but does not gas
(unless the 600+ amps is exceeded). Consider good ventilation,
temperature
controls, and good monitoring system... 








David Oberlander
Dodson Services Electrical Contractors, Inc.
[email protected]
Ofc: 972-235-0881x103
Mbl: 469-867-0834

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On
Behalf
Of Rick Randazzo
Sent: Wednesday, April 01, 2009 10:16 AM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] LiFePO4 bulk battery purchase

the voltage on the LiFePO4 batteries are 3.2 volts. (there abouts...)

http://www.thunder-sky.com/pdf/200931791117.pdf
they tell you the max and min but not the working voltage...

if you need more help you can add your specifications here. I think
everyone
in the group would be happy to put in their 2cents.

Thanks ,
Rick

On Wed, Apr 1, 2009 at 10:26 PM, Seth Rothenberg


> <[email protected]>wrote:
> 
> > Rick,
> > I know it's information that can be found, but it would be helpful to
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> John Garbarini wrote:
> 
> > I'm a novice at all this, but I'd like to either buy or make a EV.
> > Where should I start?
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Roger Heuckeroth wrote:
> 
> >
> > I don't know for certain that Ecity is any better, but I'm not going
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

I think the biggest hurdle for most of us is the overall cost, and the
uncertainty of pack life and reliability.
If I knew that I could "Really" get 2000 to 3000 cycles out of a pack of
lithium's, it would make the payback look very appealing.
I'm not trying to go the cheapest route, but I need to get my feet wet,
before I dive into this pool.

That being said I am really exited to see all the vehicles showing up
with Li packs.
I applaud all of you that are spending the time and money to experiment
with this new technology, and forging the future for the rest of us.
Please keep supplying us with as much information as possible, on cost,
performance, reliability, etc. 

In the meantime I just ordered my (13) set of Odyssey PC1750 AGM's from
Dick Brown @ Aerobatteries in Tyler TX.
$2937.35 and at my request, Dick arranged for me to pick them up at
Enersys in Warrensburg, MO, ~ 3 hour drive for me.
This saved me $170 shipping, and more importantly I will be able to
check out the pack thoroughly when I pick them up.

Dick Brown is very helpful, and a great advocate and friend of the EV
hobbyist.
I would encourage anyone that can to give him a shot at your business.

Aerobatteries

309 Airport Dr.
Tyler, TX 75704.
903-592-2176.
903-595-1597 fax



Dennis
Elsberry, MO 
Hoping that my next pack will be Lithiums.
http://www.evalbum.com/1366






-----Original Message-----
From: Willie McKemie [mailto:[email protected]] 
Sent: Wednesday, April 01, 2009 7:01 AM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] LiFePO4 bulk battery purchase



> Lee Hart wrote:
> >
> > My opinion: People who don't know what they're doing buy on the basis
> > of price only (i.e. the cheapest is the best). Most people are
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Metric Mind wrote:
> 
> > Roger Heuckeroth wrote:
> >
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Don't take this the wrong way. I like Aerobatteries, in fact, have a
bunch of Genesis 26ah'rs (Aero's predecessor) in my garage. They can
really take abuse.

However, I'm going to play a little devil's advocate here....

You stated you bought 13 PC1750's for 2937.35.

I'm guessing about 40 amphours at the 1 hour rate.

Thats ~ 6240 watthours or ~ $471.00 per Kwatthour.

Aero's are good for a max of 400 cycles so ~ 1.18 per kwh over their
lifetime delivery.



We have a pricepoint on the table for Ecity cells of 1.40/ah (1.35/ah
cell + .05/ah ship)

that would be $140.00 for a 100ah cell so 140/320*1000 -> $437.50 per Kwatt=
hour

That equates to about 360 cycles to be at the same lifetime price as
the Aerobatteries for capacity.


Notice I didn't include any additional cost for a BMS. Simply because
the Aero's require a BMS also, and I feel the BMS to be part of the
car's infrastructure, not the battery's.

Also, this comparison is on capacity alone. In this case the size of
the LiFEPO4y pack is too small to be of any use powerwise. The Aero
pack could deliver approx 70kw max whereas this LiFEPO4 pack is only
good for about 16kw max.

I think it was Bill who once said that you build a LiFEPO4 pack for
the power you need and the energy contained will be sufficient for a
hundred mile pack. Or something like that.


Anyway, from a cost per mile standpoint, LiFEPO4 is way cheaper than
AGM. Almost equal to floodies.



Stay Charged!
Hump







On Thu, Apr 2, 2009 at 8:26 AM, Pestka, Dennis J
<[email protected]> wrote:
> I think the biggest hurdle for most of us is the overall cost, and the
> uncertainty of pack life and reliability.
> If I knew that I could "Really" get 2000 to 3000 cycles out of a pack of
> lithium's, it would make the payback look very appealing.
> I'm not trying to go the cheapest route, but I need to get my feet wet,
> before I dive into this pool.
>
> That being said I am really exited to see all the vehicles showing up
> with Li packs.
> I applaud all of you that are spending the time and money to experiment
> with this new technology, and forging the future for the rest of us.
> Please keep supplying us with as much information as possible, on cost,
> performance, reliability, etc.
>
> In the meantime I just ordered my (13) set of Odyssey PC1750 AGM's from
> Dick Brown @ Aerobatteries in Tyler TX.
> $2937.35 and at my request, Dick arranged for me to pick them up at
> Enersys in Warrensburg, MO, ~ 3 hour drive for me.
> This saved me $170 shipping, and more importantly I will be able to
> check out the pack thoroughly when I pick them up.
>
> Dick Brown is very helpful, and a great advocate and friend of the EV
> hobbyist.
> I would encourage anyone that can to give him a shot at your business.
>
> Aerobatteries
>
> 309 Airport Dr.
> Tyler, TX 75704.
> 903-592-2176.
> 903-595-1597 fax
>
>
>
> Dennis
> Elsberry, MO
> Hoping that my next pack will be Lithiums.
> http://www.evalbum.com/1366
>
>
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Willie McKemie [mailto:[email protected]]
> Sent: Wednesday, April 01, 2009 7:01 AM
> To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] LiFePO4 bulk battery purchase
>
>


> Lee Hart wrote:
> >>
> >> My opinion: People who don't know what they're doing buy on the basis
> >> of price only (i.e. the cheapest is the best). Most people are
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

You guys are great, I have gotten a lot of great information here and a lot
of support from everyone. And I am quite impressed that this thread is still
running close to the original idea to start with.

LiFePO4 batteries, pricing and performance.

Service after sales.

Again, these are the two reasons i began this project. To help everyone get
a good price for these things and help to enforce the warrenties and
guarantees.

And I am in contact with several people interested in offering real battery
management systems. TS is only a monitoring system.

Thanks again,
Rick Randazzo
MSN : [email protected]
skype: dazzor_2000




> Tim Humphrey <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> > Don't take this the wrong way. I like Aerobatteries, in fact, have a
> > bunch of Genesis 26ah'rs (Aero's predecessor) in my garage. They can
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Tim Humphrey wrote:
> 
> > Don't take this the wrong way. I like Aerobatteries, in fact, have a
> > bunch of Genesis 26ah'rs (Aero's predecessor) in my garage. They can
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

On Thu, Apr 2, 2009 at 11:54 AM, Roger Heuckeroth


> <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> >
> >> Also, this comparison is on capacity alone. In this case the size of
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Hump;

I totally agree with what you're saying, but as you stated the comparable l=
ithium pack would only have ~ 20% - 25% of the power.

I've chosen the AGM's because I want this truck to have good performance, o=
therwise I would have went with even cheaper floodies.

A comparable Lithium pack power wise is going to cost me ~ $12,000 - $15,00=
0.

Someday when I'm confidant of the 2000 - 3000 cycles, I may commit to somet=
hing like this.

Right now, since this is my first conversion, I'm going to learn on the AGM=
's.




Dennis
Elsberry, MO
Lead now, Lithium later.
http://www.evalbum.com/1366





-----Original Message-----
From: Tim Humphrey [mailto:[email protected]] =

Sent: Thursday, April 02, 2009 9:09 AM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] LiFePO4 bulk battery purchase

Don't take this the wrong way. I like Aerobatteries, in fact, have a bunch =
of Genesis 26ah'rs (Aero's predecessor) in my garage. They can really take =
abuse.

However, I'm going to play a little devil's advocate here....

You stated you bought 13 PC1750's for 2937.35.

I'm guessing about 40 amphours at the 1 hour rate.

Thats ~ 6240 watthours or ~ $471.00 per Kwatthour.

Aero's are good for a max of 400 cycles so ~ 1.18 per kwh over their lifeti=
me delivery.



We have a pricepoint on the table for Ecity cells of 1.40/ah (1.35/ah cell =
+ .05/ah ship)

that would be $140.00 for a 100ah cell so 140/320*1000 -> $437.50 per Kwatt=
hour

That equates to about 360 cycles to be at the same lifetime price as the Ae=
robatteries for capacity.


Notice I didn't include any additional cost for a BMS. Simply because the A=
ero's require a BMS also, and I feel the BMS to be part of the car's infras=
tructure, not the battery's.

Also, this comparison is on capacity alone. In this case the size of the Li=
FEPO4y pack is too small to be of any use powerwise. The Aero pack could de=
liver approx 70kw max whereas this LiFEPO4 pack is only good for about 16kw=
max.

I think it was Bill who once said that you build a LiFEPO4 pack for the pow=
er you need and the energy contained will be sufficient for a hundred mile =
pack. Or something like that.


Anyway, from a cost per mile standpoint, LiFEPO4 is way cheaper than AGM. A=
lmost equal to floodies.



Stay Charged!
Hump







On Thu, Apr 2, 2009 at 8:26 AM, Pestka, Dennis J <[email protected]=
m> wrote:
> I think the biggest hurdle for most of us is the overall cost, and the =

> uncertainty of pack life and reliability.
> If I knew that I could "Really" get 2000 to 3000 cycles out of a pack =

> of lithium's, it would make the payback look very appealing.
> I'm not trying to go the cheapest route, but I need to get my feet =

> wet, before I dive into this pool.
>
> That being said I am really exited to see all the vehicles showing up =

> with Li packs.
> I applaud all of you that are spending the time and money to =

> experiment with this new technology, and forging the future for the rest =
of us.
> Please keep supplying us with as much information as possible, on =

> cost, performance, reliability, etc.
>
> In the meantime I just ordered my (13) set of Odyssey PC1750 AGM's =

> from Dick Brown @ Aerobatteries in Tyler TX.
> $2937.35 and at my request, Dick arranged for me to pick them up at =

> Enersys in Warrensburg, MO, ~ 3 hour drive for me.
> This saved me $170 shipping, and more importantly I will be able to =

> check out the pack thoroughly when I pick them up.
>
> Dick Brown is very helpful, and a great advocate and friend of the EV =

> hobbyist.
> I would encourage anyone that can to give him a shot at your business.
>
> Aerobatteries
>
> 309 Airport Dr.
> Tyler, TX 75704.
> 903-592-2176.
> 903-595-1597 fax
>
>
>
> Dennis
> Elsberry, MO
> Hoping that my next pack will be Lithiums.
> http://www.evalbum.com/1366
>
>
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Willie McKemie [mailto:[email protected]]
> Sent: Wednesday, April 01, 2009 7:01 AM
> To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] LiFePO4 bulk battery purchase
>
>


> Lee Hart wrote:
> >>
> >> My opinion: People who don't know what they're doing buy on the basis =
> 
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

The fact is... It's hard to NOT to achieve 2000 cycles with LiFePO4.
They cycle all right and I've taken nearly 5000 cycles out from 30 Ah
cell. And it's still pulling just fine. 99% other LFP cells I've had
are providing similar curves.

Quality issues are hard to spot from these since they seem to work OK
first and then drop dead quite suddenly. But all problems I have seen
are easily solved (internal corrosion, unthreaded holes,.. ). Just
more control in production. That's it.

There will be hundreds of LiFePO4 cell manufacturers as soon as the
patent is blown away. And it will be. So prices will sink, quality go
up and precious BMS chips become commodity. Then we have too many
choices 

But the question is.. will 100 Wh/kg be enough ? Will 300 Wh/l satisfy
our needs ? Sure.. improvements are coming but I'm still betting on
mixed cathodes... LiNiCoO is still sooo much better. Taking the
advanced methods of manufacturing and using recycled materials...
safety and price are no longer issues. Range is the issue we need to
solve for EVs.

That's how I see it... and for next few years.

My cook book for group purchase would be:
1- get samples from many factories
2- test the cells and make the choice
3- get really BIG ( +1 000 000 Ah) group behind you
4- make sure that you know the factory owner and directors so you can
hunt them down
5- make sure *they* know you can and WILL hunt them down. Show the
axes, swords and other sharp ojects you might bring back next time
6- make the deal 

-Jukka


2009/4/2 Pestka, Dennis J <[email protected]>:
> Hump;
>
> I totally agree with what you're saying, but as you stated the comparable=
lithium pack would only have ~ 20% - 25% of the power.
>
> I've chosen the AGM's because I want this truck to have good performance,=
otherwise I would have went with even cheaper floodies.
>
> A comparable Lithium pack power wise is going to cost me ~ $12,000 - $15,=
000.
>
> Someday when I'm confidant of the 2000 - 3000 cycles, I may commit to som=
ething like this.
>
> Right now, since this is my first conversion, I'm going to learn on the A=
GM's.
>
>
>
>
> Dennis
> Elsberry, MO
> Lead now, Lithium later.
> http://www.evalbum.com/1366
>
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Tim Humphrey [mailto:[email protected]]
> Sent: Thursday, April 02, 2009 9:09 AM
> To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] LiFePO4 bulk battery purchase
>
> Don't take this the wrong way. I like Aerobatteries, in fact, have a bunc=
h of Genesis 26ah'rs (Aero's predecessor) in my garage. They can really tak=
e abuse.
>
> However, I'm going to play a little devil's advocate here....
>
> You stated you bought 13 PC1750's for 2937.35.
>
> I'm guessing about 40 amphours at the 1 hour rate.
>
> Thats ~ 6240 watthours or ~ $471.00 per Kwatthour.
>
> Aero's are good for a max of 400 cycles so ~ 1.18 per kwh over their life=
time delivery.
>
>
>
> We have a pricepoint on the table for Ecity cells of 1.40/ah (1.35/ah cel=
l + .05/ah ship)
>
> that would be $140.00 for a 100ah cell so 140/320*1000 -> $437.50 per Kwa=
tthour
>
> That equates to about 360 cycles to be at the same lifetime price as the =
Aerobatteries for capacity.
>
>
> Notice I didn't include any additional cost for a BMS. Simply because the=
Aero's require a BMS also, and I feel the BMS to be part of the car's infr=
astructure, not the battery's.
>
> Also, this comparison is on capacity alone. In this case the size of the =
LiFEPO4y pack is too small to be of any use powerwise. The Aero pack could =
deliver approx 70kw max whereas this LiFEPO4 pack is only good for about 16=
kw max.
>
> I think it was Bill who once said that you build a LiFEPO4 pack for the p=
ower you need and the energy contained will be sufficient for a hundred mil=
e pack. Or something like that.
>
>
> Anyway, from a cost per mile standpoint, LiFEPO4 is way cheaper than AGM.=
Almost equal to floodies.
>
>
>
> Stay Charged!
> Hump
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Thu, Apr 2, 2009 at 8:26 AM, Pestka, Dennis J <[email protected]=
com> wrote:
>> I think the biggest hurdle for most of us is the overall cost, and the
>> uncertainty of pack life and reliability.
>> If I knew that I could "Really" get 2000 to 3000 cycles out of a pack
>> of lithium's, it would make the payback look very appealing.
>> I'm not trying to go the cheapest route, but I need to get my feet
>> wet, before I dive into this pool.
>>
>> That being said I am really exited to see all the vehicles showing up
>> with Li packs.
>> I applaud all of you that are spending the time and money to
>> experiment with this new technology, and forging the future for the rest=
of us.
>> Please keep supplying us with as much information as possible, on
>> cost, performance, reliability, etc.
>>
>> In the meantime I just ordered my (13) set of Odyssey PC1750 AGM's
>> from Dick Brown @ Aerobatteries in Tyler TX.
>> $2937.35 and at my request, Dick arranged for me to pick them up at
>> Enersys in Warrensburg, MO, ~ 3 hour drive for me.
>> This saved me $170 shipping, and more importantly I will be able to
>> check out the pack thoroughly when I pick them up.
>>
>> Dick Brown is very helpful, and a great advocate and friend of the EV
>> hobbyist.
>> I would encourage anyone that can to give him a shot at your business.
>>
>> Aerobatteries
>>
>> 309 Airport Dr.
>> Tyler, TX 75704.
>> 903-592-2176.
>> 903-595-1597 fax
>>
>>
>>
>> Dennis
>> Elsberry, MO
>> Hoping that my next pack will be Lithiums.
>> http://www.evalbum.com/1366
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Willie McKemie [mailto:[email protected]]
>> Sent: Wednesday, April 01, 2009 7:01 AM
>> To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
>> Subject: Re: [EVDL] LiFePO4 bulk battery purchase
>>
>>


> Lee Hart wrote:
> >>>
> >>> My opinion: People who don't know what they're doing buy on the basis
> >>> of price only (i.e. the cheapest is the best). Most people are
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Matt wrote:
> 
> > No way does a T-145 deliver 260AH at EV discharge rates.
> > Even at 75A, they are only rated to [email protected] If you are
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Exactly! Calendar life issues will get you long before you put 2000 cycles 
on them. 2000/365= about 5.5 years of cycling everyday.
Al
>
>
> Jukka believes it is difficult to *not* get over 2000 cycles from LiFePO4, 
> but I'm less optimistic. There are two reasons for my skepticism: first, 
> I think Jukka may have a better BMS than most, and secondly, I expect many 
> EVers would start to experience calendar life issues with LiFePO4 before 
> they manage to rack up enough cycles to wear them out. It is not unusual 
> to run a flooded pack for more than 5 years before wearing it out, so in 
> similar service the Li pack has to keep operating with at least 80% 
> capacity for over 14 years to reach the break even point in $/kWh lifetime 
> throughput. I think those who presently wear out a flooded pack in 2years 
> or less have a much better chance of achieving lower operating cost with a 
> LiFePO4 pack.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Roger.

_______________________________________________
General EVDL support: http://evdl.org/help/
Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
Archives: http://evdl.org/archive/
Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Thanks for the correction....not sure how I missed that.
Must have hit the wrong button on the calculator :S

Matt 

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf
Of Roger Stockton
Sent: Friday, 3 April 2009 11:12 AM
To: 'Electric Vehicle Discussion List'
Subject: Re: [EVDL] LiFePO4 bulk battery purchase



> Matt wrote:
> 
> > No way does a T-145 deliver 260AH at EV discharge rates.
> > Even at 75A, they are only rated to [email protected] If you are going to
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Not many people will put full cycles on LiIon every day
as you typically design your range to use 50% so you
would need to charge twice (like, at work and at home)
to get *one* full cycle on you batteries each day.
Due to the power limits of Li-Ion, the range will be
around 100 miles if you design for adequate acceleration
(it is possible to design and run a low acceleration
vehicle with no more than 60 miles range but it will
have unacceptable - to most - acceleration)
So this means that you have to drive 120 miles each day
(since range is typically defined to 80% DOD, the 50%
drive would be around 60 miles each way, each day)
about 45000 miles per year for at least 5 years to
reach the 240,000-ish miles that the 2000 cycles should
give you. I don't want to think to verify if the cells
will give 4,000 cycles - you'd have to *live* on the road
and go 90,000 per year. Ugh. I think the car will wear out
before the batteries - how many people put half a million
miles on the same car?

Regards,

Cor van de Water
Director HW & Systems Architecture Group
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
Email: [email protected] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [email protected]
Tel: +1 408 383 7626 magicJack: +1 408 844 3932
Tel: +91 (040)23117400 x203 XoIP: +31877841130

Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail.
-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On
Behalf Of Al
Sent: Friday, April 03, 2009 9:35 AM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] LiFePO4 bulk battery purchase

Exactly! Calendar life issues will get you long before you put 2000
cycles 
on them. 2000/365= about 5.5 years of cycling everyday.
Al
>
>
> Jukka believes it is difficult to *not* get over 2000 cycles from
LiFePO4, 
> but I'm less optimistic. There are two reasons for my skepticism:
first, 
> I think Jukka may have a better BMS than most, and secondly, I expect
many 
> EVers would start to experience calendar life issues with LiFePO4
before 
> they manage to rack up enough cycles to wear them out. It is not
unusual 
> to run a flooded pack for more than 5 years before wearing it out, so
in 
> similar service the Li pack has to keep operating with at least 80% 
> capacity for over 14 years to reach the break even point in $/kWh
lifetime 
> throughput. I think those who presently wear out a flooded pack in
2years 
> or less have a much better chance of achieving lower operating cost
with a 
> LiFePO4 pack.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Roger.

_______________________________________________
General EVDL support: http://evdl.org/help/
Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
Archives: http://evdl.org/archive/
Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev


_______________________________________________
General EVDL support: http://evdl.org/help/
Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
Archives: http://evdl.org/archive/
Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Al wrote:
> 
> > Exactly! Calendar life issues will get you long before you put 2000
> > cycles
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Hi Jukka,



> Jukka Jarvinen wrote:
> 
> > The fact is... It's hard to NOT to achieve 2000 cycles with LiFePO4.
> > They cycle all right and I've taken nearly 5000 cycles out from 30 Ah
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

>What about calendar life issues? LiFePO4 is generally known to have an
increase in IR over time of around 
>10%/year, more in a hot climate like Florida where I live, less in Finland.
Is LiNiCoO's calendar life profile 
>much different than that of LiFePO4? 

Where do you get the 10%/yr ESR increase from? What testing results do you
have access to?
I haven't noticed this from my pack (now 15 months old)

Matt
-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf
Of Charles Whalen
Sent: Monday, 6 April 2009 12:40 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] LiFePO4 bulk battery purchase

Hi Jukka,



> Jukka Jarvinen wrote:
> 
> > The fact is... It's hard to NOT to achieve 2000 cycles with LiFePO4.
> > They cycle all right and I've taken nearly 5000 cycles out from 30 Ah
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

All powers to you Jukka, I'll be the first one to buy Finnish battery
if I'll need one.

Not because I just don't like Chinese products, but because they
have *demonstrated* over and over they cannot be trusted.

Victor



> Jukka J=E4rvinen wrote:
> > And since all the things have gone as they have I can see no other
> > option anymore than building all the EV batteries our selves. Then you
> > KNOW what's inside and there's only one person to point your finger at
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

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bi9saXN0aW5mby9ldgoK


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> shred wrote:
> >
> > I bought 3 of these 4 packs of TSLFP40AHA batteries for my electric
> > motorcycle.
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Any type of battery I would purchase has to beat the following:

Driving a EV for 33 years using 450 cells that range from 260 AH to 300 AH 
lead batteries at a cost of $7800.00.

This makes it a $236.36 a year.
$ 19.59 a month.
$ 00.65 a day

Total distance travel is 101,487 miles for 33 years
3,075 miles a year
256 miles a month
8.5 miles a day

Cost of battery per mile becomes

$ 00.65/8.5 = 7.6 cents a mile

Today the price of gas in Montana is $2.21.

This makes equality mpg of 2.21/.076 = 29 mpg.

Using a LifeP04 battery at 180 volts at 200 AH will cost me $19,320.00 for 
how long. I can drive using lead batteries for 56 years for that cost.

This is the seven times the cost of a 8 year battery pack, so now my 
equality mpg now becomes 29 mpg/7 = 4.12 mpg. This is worst than my CanAM 
Group 7 GT Sports car that gets 5 mpg for the first mile and gets 8 mpg 
after it's warm up.

Roland



----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Willie McKemie" <[email protected]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Saturday, May 09, 2009 10:25 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] LiFePO4 bulk battery purchase


>


> shred wrote:
> > >
> > > I bought 3 of these 4 packs of TSLFP40AHA batteries for my electric
> > > motorcycle.
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

T24gU2F0LCBNYXkgOSwgMjAwOSBhdCA3OjI5IFBNLCBSb2xhbmQgV2llbmNoIDxldl83QG1zbi5j
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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

NiCad batteries back in 75 cost about $100.00 per 20 AH cell. I use to 
assemble these for aircraft battery packs.

Most of my driving is under extreme conditions which a lot of the driving up 
2 miles grades of 7% or more which I could do at 60 mph with the 300 AH 
cobalt cells at 600 amps for about 2 minutes.

Today, I am using 260 AH battery pack which I now only drive 1/2 mile up a 
8% or more grade hill starting out at 300 amps and then 200 amps at 30 mph. 
In the winter, I may be pushing through a foot of snow, which doubles the 
power that is needed. At times, I have use up to 52 AH driving 5 miles in 
these conditions.

Roland




----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Evan Tuer" <[email protected]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Saturday, May 09, 2009 11:39 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] LiFePO4 bulk battery purchase


>


> Roland Wiench <[email protected]> wrote:
> > > Any type of battery I would purchase has to beat the following:
> > >
> > > Driving a EV for 33 years using 450 cells that range from 260 AH to 300
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

what about battery efficiency when charging?
Does Lithium do better?



> Roland Wiench <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> > NiCad batteries back in 75 cost about $100.00 per 20 AH cell. I use to
> > assemble these for aircraft battery packs.
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Roland,

Your only running an average of 8.5 miles per day. How would the the 
comparison work out is you averaged 40 miles per day with an 
occasional 60-70 mile day thrown in a few times a month.

For your needs, lead acid may be the best technology, but its not a 
case of one size fits all.

Roger



> Roland Wiench wrote:
> 
> > Any type of battery I would purchase has to beat the following:
> >
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

You are correct but this information is meant to make you think of the 
reality of your needs and not just Bling Bling or Keep Up with the 
Jones syndrome. For some lithium is going to be the best because they 
may want to help promote the new battery, or they really need the 
distance and are willing to pay for clean driving. Using lead for many 
is all that is needed. If you do not need that distance from lithium 
then lead will save you loads of money. My Ghia for getting me around 
town is fine with my lead pack. I am willing to pay but I am not yet 
able to do so. Lead it is for me for now.

Pete : )




> Roger Heuckeroth wrote:
> 
> > Roland,
> >
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Roger Heuckeroth" <[email protected]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Saturday, May 09, 2009 5:34 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] LiFePO4 bulk battery purchase


> Roland,
>
> Your only running an average of 8.5 miles per day. How would the the
> comparison work out is you averaged 40 miles per day with an
> occasional 60-70 mile day thrown in a few times a month.

If you go to the U.S.Battery Web Site and bring up data on the life of a 
battery at different battery amperes per type of ampere-hour, it will 
indicated the amount of cycles life.


In April of 1976 I pick the sister car to my El Camino which was a 1976 
Chevelle that had the 90 each 300 AH cobalt type I lead cells from the 
Electric Fuel Propulsion Company in Troy, Mich. It was one of the proto 
test vehicles that they just go done running 1056 miles in 24 hours.

This EV use a 11.5 inch GE DC series motor rated at 165 volts at 175 amps at 
32 hp at 6000 rpm. It use a Cable Form 900 amp SCR motor controller and 
five 400 amp Cable Form battery contactors. It had a special built on 50 
amp charger that has multiples AC input of 120, 208,240 and 280 volt either 
from single or 3 phase.

They wanted to prove to the public, that a EV could run at least 1000 miles 
in one day. Well they run 1056 miles in 24 hours averaging which average 44 
mph per hour. They run about one hour and charge the batteries with a 200 
amp 3 phase delta charge either from a pad mounted unit or from a portable 
37.5 kw 250 VAC 3 phase delta generator.

The charge time vary from 15 to 20 minutes. There was one component fault 
in a small 25 amp diode in the controller which they replace.

At the end of the run, they cook three cells in the battery pack which they 
had to be replace. Also they found that the aluminum battery box was not a 
good ideal, because there was a lot of ark over from the battery cells that 
was next to the case. So they use fiberglass boxes on the next run of EVs.

This EV had about 1100 miles when I pick it up. They gave me extra cells to 
replace the ones as needed. In Montana, the furthest I drove it was on are 
River Road Drive that loops around the city for 39.5 miles. The batteries 
where discharge to 50% SOC.

I drove this EV from my home to work which is a 2 mile climb at about 8% 
grade in some areas. We had no speed limit at the time. I would normally 
go about 80 mph in my Porsche up this hill and sometimes may get pass by a 
58 Vette which my co-worker had.

Before I get to this hill, there is a slight down hill section, where I can 
get the EV up to 65 mph which I could roller coast up the hill at 60 mph 
pulling 600 motor amps and about 360 battery amps at times.

Did this run from 1976 to 1985 which I then transfer the motor, motor 
controller, battery charger to the El Camino which was better suited using a 
full insulated fiberglass battery box. I had to use a 12 inch high Exide 6 
volt 235 AH battery, because I could not use the 18 inch high 300 amp cells 
which would extended below the EV.

I still could make the 39.5 mile loop when these batteries were new to a SOC 
of about 40%. Now being retire, I only need to run a shorter distance which 
replacements about every 9 to 10 years.

I think that I will tried the US EV-145 12 volt batteries for a pack voltage 
of 216 volts and see what happens. I will reduce the weight by 600 lbs and 
will have room to put in one of those 300 V 75 kw supercapacitors made by 
Tavrima.

Inputted this data into the Uve EV Calculator and came out with you go to be 
kidding me range of 95 miles at 50% SOC!! This could be true, if I did not 
have the power steering, heater, two pumps, four fans, comm system, 
instrument indicators, DC-DC converter, DC-AC inverters and/or AC going.

Roland 

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

- 48V 15A charger is available at $150 each.
- 300 mA per cell balancer / monitor for 8 cells is available at $60
each.
- Volume discount is available, Please contact seller





> Willie McKemie <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> > I don't see mention of BMS and charger in the listing. Since the price
> > is $1.61 per ah, in the absence of BMS and charger, the group buy is
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

I would like to know more about your charger

thanks

Mike



> Travis Gintz <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> > - 48V 15A charger is available at $150 each.
> > - 300 mA per cell balancer / monitor for 8 cells is available at $60
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

its not my charger, its from the ebay listing where someone bought cells

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=200329295027




> m gol <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> > I would like to know more about your charger
> >
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

huh?



> Travis Gintz <[email protected]> wrote:
> > its not my charger, its from the ebay listing where someone bought cells
> >
> > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3D200329295027
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

hi my 2 cents here . i would explain to them , that american buyers are
cautius buying made in china products because of there lack of quality
control / and or quality [taking shortcuts on materials used etc ]. word of
mouth of a bad product will end it quickly . if they make a good product
with good quality they will sell ...heck i just bought one of those
e-cigarettes made in china out of 5 batteries - one only worked and then
half a;;;ed .
lonnie
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General EVDL support: http://evdl.org/help/
Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
Archives: http://evdl.org/archive/
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