# [EVDL] I'm having a hard time understanding this



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Deleted

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

David
I agree
I seldom say much on "the List" but this needs saying.
Not only apologize but beg them to return. I have my
own Delete key and should be allowed to use it. I
don't need anyone's help telling me what to and not to
read.
Keith Van Sickle



> --- damon henry <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> > =
> 
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

FYI, the only currently moderated list member is Dan Frederiksen.

David Roden
EVDL Administrator
http://www.evdl.org/


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

On Mon, Mar 3, 2008 at 4:18 PM, keith vansickle


> <[email protected]> wrote:
> > David
> > I
> > don't need anyone's help telling me what to and not to
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

[No message]


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

As I said, John and Rod left the list over this and I am not sure about Bil=
l, so of course they are no longer moderated. Of course Dan is a professio=
nal Troll so a little moderation isn't going to chase him off. I would ima=
gine there are many other lists he is moderated on as well.
=

If you decided to unmoderate John, Rod, and Bill, did you take the time to =
tell them? If so then perhaps you have already done what I am asking you t=
o do and I am just not aware of it. If that is the case then I apologize f=
or calling you out publicly. I know from my own experience that anytime yo=
u are dealing with a large group of people it is impossible to make everyon=
e happy, so you just have to do your best, which is I'm sure what you were =
trying to do. I, however, am not satisfied with the results and would like=
to see you take the appropriate actions to set things right. Being an 8 y=
ear contributor and a very well behaved one at that I have decided that thi=
s is an important enough issue for me to step outside of my normal modus op=
erandi.
=

damon> From: [email protected]> To: [email protected]> Date: Mon, 3 Mar 2008 =
16:23:58 -0500> Subject: Re: [EVDL] I'm having a hard time understanding th=
is> > FYI, the only currently moderated list member is Dan Frederiksen.> > =
David Roden> EVDL Administrator> http://www.evdl.org/> > > ________________=
_______________________________> For subscription options, see> http://list=
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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Ben,

Please be sure you do not include a Zilla or Raptor controller in your first conversion. Also do not bother buying a Manzita PFC charger or a host of other hardware that likely would not be available if it weren't for the 3 people I am defending. You are new to the list and to EVs and have no idea why it is so easy to build a cool EV these days. Rod, Bill and John deserve a ton of credit, along with others of course. I know David did not force them to leave, but his actions were a big part of it.

I have always appreciated David's work in behalf of the EVDL. Most of the time he ends up having to be the bad guy, but does so quite gracefully. He helps all the newbies out and gets rid of all those Please Unsubscribe Me posts. This time he made and honest mistake and I would like to see some effort to repair th damage.

damon
> > No one's telling you what to and not to read. Someone's excercising> their right to control what is read or not read on ONE MAILING LIST.> Sorry for the caps, but I think a little emphasis is needed for the> sake of realizing the scope here .. It's not censorship, it isn't some> terrible conspiracy to silence anyone. It's simply a case of someone> exercising a little editorial control over one TINY corner of the> internet. If people choose to leave because one topic (not even the> main subject of this mailing list) was being monitored a little> closely to keep it civil, then that was their choice. Do I think some> valuable members may have left? Sure. I haven't even done a> conversion, but I recognize good input when I see it. Do I think David> should have done it different? Nah - their were flame wars over a> topic that had ZERO value to someone building an EV, and he took steps> to stop it. He didn't make anyone leave.> > -Ben> > _______________________________________!
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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> damon henry wrote:
> > David Roden aka EVDL Adminstrator
> >
> > I DEMAND THAT YOU END YOUR MODERATING EXPERIMENT AND APOLOGIZE TO ALL THOSE THAT YOU CHOSE TO CENSOR IMMEDIATELY. ADDITIONALLY YOU NEED TO REACH OUT TO THE ONES THAT HAVE LEFT THIS LIST BECAUSE OF THIS RIDICULOUS CENSORSHIP AND DO EVERYTHING YOU CAN TO GET THEM TO REJOIN.
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Damn it. Can it. Not a list topic. Take it off list if you feel the 
need.

: (

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Just to be clear, I don't have time to discuss this extensively now. I >do< 
have a job and a personal life, and I don't intend to lose either one over 
taking too much time to respond to flames about whether or how I should 
respond to flames.

If you have comments about list policies, send them to me privately. I 
assure you that making a scene in public is not going to change anything. 
Quite to the contrary.

Actually, an astute observer might note that shouting, making emotional 
demands, and starting an off-topic flame war rather clearly demonstrate the 
need for moderation. 

Did I say moderation? Yes, I did. Here's how the Oxford Dictionary defines 
it :

moderation, noun 

1. The avoidance of extremes in one´s actions or opinions.

2. The process of moderating.

A little of #1 goes a long way in obviating the need for #2, no?

Talk to me - but don't shout. Rational, thoughtful discussion I will listen 
to. Shouting - not so much. If you don't know my private email address, the 
instructions for finding it are at the bottom of every message I send. 

That is all the time I have to write about this at the moment - and possibly 
for a few days. I have major projects underway at work and I simply can't 
neglect them.

David Roden
EVDL Administrator
http://www.evdl.org/


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Nice try... but I'm ignoring this. Feel free to censor me. You and you a=
lone have the power to decide if I deserve to be censored.
=

damon> From: [email protected]> To: [email protected]> Date: Mon, 3 Mar 2008 =
17:10:25 -0500> Subject: Re: [EVDL] I'm having a hard time understanding th=
is> > Just to be clear, I don't have time to discuss this extensively now. =
I >do< > have a job and a personal life, and I don't intend to lose either =
one over > taking too much time to respond to flames about whether or how I=
should > respond to flames.> > If you have comments about list policies, s=
end them to me privately. I > assure you that making a scene in public is n=
ot going to change anything. > Quite to the contrary.> > Actually, an astut=
e observer might note that shouting, making emotional > demands, and starti=
ng an off-topic flame war rather clearly demonstrate the > need for moderat=
ion. > > Did I say moderation? Yes, I did. Here's how the Oxford Dictionary=
defines > it :> > moderation, noun > > 1. The avoidance of extremes in one=
=B4s actions or opinions.> > 2. The process of moderating.> > A little of #=
1 goes a long way in obviating the need for #2, no?> > Talk to me - but don=
't shout. Rational, thoughtful discussion I will listen > to. Shouting - no=
t so much. If you don't know my private email address, the > instructions f=
or finding it are at the bottom of every message I send. > > That is all th=
e time I have to write about this at the moment - and possibly > for a few =
days. I have major projects underway at work and I simply can't > neglect t=
hem.> > David Roden> EVDL Administrator> http://www.evdl.org/> > =

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> damon henry wrote:
> 
> > You are new to the list and to EVs and have
> > no idea why it is so easy to build a cool EV these days.
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Really Roger,

According to John, one of the lines that John got in trouble for was stating that if an individual was fine with a squealing Curtis controller they would also probably be fine with a cheapo PTC heater core rather than the quality ones that CanEV sales. Now I suppose John could be lying to be me about this, but you tell me how this fits into what you know about David's choice to Censor these valued list members. It looks to me like he was reading and nit picking each one of their posts.

John has never been one to understate anything so this particular point strikes me as nothing more than John being John, but apparently David decided it was too abrasive to make the list.

I wonder how you would will feel about being censored when you get too abrassive. I've seen you get involved in some pretty passionate discussions over the years.

damon> From: [email protected]> To: [email protected]> Date: Mon, 3 Mar 2008 14:23:16 -0800> Subject: Re: [EVDL] I'm having a hard time understanding this> > damon henry wrote:> > > You are new to the list and to EVs and have> > no idea why it is so easy to build a cool EV these days.> > Rod, Bill and John deserve a ton of credit, along with others> > of course. I know David did not force them to leave, but his> > actions were a big part of it.> > Bill Dube does not appear to have left, and has posted successfully even after moderation was enforced on a specific thread.> > David R has not prevented these people or anyone else from discussing racing or any other valid EV topic on the list, all he did was start *moderating* specific individuals participating in a specific thread, effectively stating that discussion of EV topics (including racing) is fine, but bickering/flame-level discussion (of any topic) is not.> > > Most of the time he ends up having to be the bad guy, !
but> > does so quite gracefully. He helps all the newbies out and> > gets rid of all those Please Unsubscribe Me posts. This time> > he made and honest mistake and I would like to see some> > effort to repair th damage.> > I disagree; David has done nothing wrong. The people in question are not the only ones who were moderated in respect to the specific thread; that two of these individuals took personal offense to being told bickering is not going to be allowed is unfortunate, but it is not David's fault.> > I've had the priviledge of meeting Rod W and John W, and share your respect for their contributions over the years, but firmly believe that David must be uniformly even-handed in his moderation, and has been.> > Make no mistake about it, David did not lump these individuals into the same category as DF; David specificaly stated on-list the special treatment that DF alone would receive going forward.> > Cheers,> > Roger.> > ______________________________________________!
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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

I'm going to stick my nose into this, and I know that I shouldn't.

I understand David's goal to keep the EVDL from descending into 
name-calling and political arguement chaos. He has "cut me off" more 
than once and I think that he was more often correct in doing it than 
he was incorrect in doing it. Understanding his motives tempered my 
anger at the times I felt I was being unfairly cut off. (It didn't 
change the unfairness aspect, of course.)

I personally believe he has become a bit too fast on the trigger as 
of late. That is just my personal opinion, of course.

I'm reminded of a Heinlein story that had a reference to a planet 
that had just two laws:

1) It is illegal to annoy anyone.

2) It is illegal to be too easily annoyed.

These two laws are really worth considering (carefully, and from all 
perspectives) when reading a post, when writing a post, when 
censoring a post, and also when your post has been censored.

Bill Dube'

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> damon henry wrote:
> 
> > According to John, one of the lines that John got in trouble
> > for was stating that if an individual was fine with a
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

According to John, there was an actual exchange of emails on David's part about this phrase and suggestions of how he might change what he posted to the list. Again, this is John's side of the story which so far has went unheard...

Pehaps David decided that mentioning it to John was enough, but John is definitely under the impression that David was moderating all of his email not just a specific thread. Rod also complained of the same thing and both claim that having their posts held and reviewed not only was offense, but would result in them not being able to use the EVDL in ways that have been important to them like up to the minute track side reporting. > It is my understanding that if David decided not to allow a post through to the list, he notified its author; did John actually receive notification that this post had been rejected, and that it was rejected due to that particular comment? Or, is this perhaps a case of a post that made it to the list but not to John (I experience this every so often, where I'll see responses to a post that I never received), due to whatever oddities of email and which John assumed was a sign of rampant moderation?
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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

haha, this is like, so high school, like yeah.... totally.... hahaha



> damon henry <[email protected]> wrote:
> >
> > According to John, there was an actual exchange of emails on David's part about this phrase and suggestions of how he might change what he posted to the list. Again, this is John's side of the story which so far has went unheard...
> >
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> damon henry wrote:
> 
> > According to John, there was an actual exchange of emails on
> > David's part about this phrase and suggestions of how he
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

EVDL Administrator - David Roden wrote
>FYI, the only currently moderated list member is Dan Frederiksen.
>
>David Roden
>EVDL Administrator
>http://www.evdl.org/

And, of course, Roderick, John, and Bill have all been personally notified of this? Or no?

Roy


~~~~~~


Roy LeMeur

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "EVDL Administrator" <[email protected]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, March 03, 2008 4:23 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] I'm having a hard time understanding this


> FYI, the only currently moderated list member is Dan Frederiksen.
>
> David Roden
> EVDL Administrator
> http://www.evdl.org/
>

So THERE!

I hate to lose John, Rod, Bill, ANYBODY. Who hasn't enjoyed John's 
stories, in person WITH the right sound effects, or on line. I don't wanna 
stur the pot MORE. Have held my tongue hoping it would blow away, everybody 
intact? IF you guyz are listening don't go away! We love ya! You ARE the 
List. Breaking Things So We Don't Have To! Pushing the bleeding edge of 
technology. All you are household terms in my place especially at our EAA 
Meetings. Never be forgotten, EVen if youse guyz are Off List. Not the 
"Magic Kingdom" where I,David, or anybody else, can wave a wand, and 
EVerything is just fine. Let's just race and build fun cars? I have been 
through HOURS on the fone trying to streighten out my E Snail system, 
"Lookout Distress" The Yahell thing I'm using, because it took sometimes 
DAYS to post anything.Guy's in India said it was FINE! Maybe stuff just 
"hitting Traffic" in Cyber space, being hours late, not David's doing? If 
you get yelled at? I have, too political, so I hold my tongue, a bit. Or try 
to?

Just a few thoughts.

Seeya Sat?

Bob
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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

I thought about just sending this to David to save
bandwidth, but then decided I wanted to show public
support of David's *moderation* efforts in this group.

Seems to me this thread would not exist if we all
stayed professional and focused on EV issues and facts
rather than the sniping that has part of some of the
exchanges.

As David said, he is busy like all of us. I'm sure he
does not delight in wasting his time having to deal
with moderation. But I for one am glad he is doing it
and continuing to provide oversight of this leading
(bleeding?) edge forum.

I also am grateful for the many knowledgeable folks
who are sharing their experience and insight.

I hope this thread ends soon so we can get back to EV
discussions, but I just wanted to share my view.

Respectfully to all of you,

Scott Collins


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Hi Scott Collins,

I'm not sure how long you have been on this list or involved in the EV scen=
e, but I don't recognize your name so I'm guessing it hasn't been that long=
. Forgive me if I'm wrong. You stated that =


> I also am grateful for the many knowledgeable folks
> who are sharing their experience and insight.

I totally agree with you and the fact that two of the most knowledgeable an=
d insightful EV'rs (it looks like Bill has stuck it out although from the s=
ound of his last post probably just barely) have left the list over this is=
exactly what I'm complaining about. If you do not know who Rod Wilde or J=
ohn Wayland are perhaps you should google them. They have been extremely s=
uccessful and active in promoting and improving EVs for the last couple of =
decades. They have been featured in all types of media all over the world =
and they have been involved in one way or another building hundreds of EVs =
and inspiring many many EV enthusiasts including myself. They have consist=
ently given of their time and often resources to any one in need, and your =
only conduit to them has been taken away from you without you even knowing.=
So to me you seem way to casual about having lost these valuable resource=
s.

damon

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Damon, it all comes down to maturity - John and Rod aren't, David is. I 
regret having to say this, but if John and Rod had acted and posted as more 
than kids bickering, this would not have happened! I appreciate them both, 
John especially has been a mentor to many, including me; but if you had seen 
Rod's last post to me off-list, you would understand better. I hate to lose 
them, but if they can't act as adults, then the list IS better off without 
them.

Joseph H. Strubhar

Web: www.gremcoinc.com

E-mail: [email protected]
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "damon henry" <[email protected]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, March 03, 2008 9:03 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] I'm having a hard time understanding this




Hi Scott Collins,

I'm not sure how long you have been on this list or involved in the EV 
scene, but I don't recognize your name so I'm guessing it hasn't been that 
long. Forgive me if I'm wrong. You stated that

> I also am grateful for the many knowledgeable folks
> who are sharing their experience and insight.

I totally agree with you and the fact that two of the most knowledgeable and 
insightful EV'rs (it looks like Bill has stuck it out although from the 
sound of his last post probably just barely) have left the list over this is 
exactly what I'm complaining about. If you do not know who Rod Wilde or 
John Wayland are perhaps you should google them. They have been extremely 
successful and active in promoting and improving EVs for the last couple of 
decades. They have been featured in all types of media all over the world 
and they have been involved in one way or another building hundreds of EVs 
and inspiring many many EV enthusiasts including myself. They have 
consistently given of their time and often resources to any one in need, and 
your only conduit to them has been taken away from you without you even 
knowing. So to me you seem way to casual about having lost these valuable 
resources.

damon

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Hello Damon:

I just wanted to tell you, that I left the list as well. Not that I would
be of any importance, I just don't want to be a 'member' of a medium that
is censored.

That is sort of personal for me. I am old enough to decide on my own what
I want and don't want to read. I don't need and want anybody deciding for
me.

I discussed this matter with David, but to no avail. He seems to want to
make the EDVL into some form of streamlined, we love us all, kid friendly
evening reading material. I don't believe that this is a good idea. A lot
of people are very passionate about EVs - and where emotions are involved,
tensions flare. That's the general idea. It worked well over the last
years. It's the 'newcomers' that (obviously) want everything
McDonalds-type squeaky clean and tidy - maybe even bleached and
disinfected.

Moderation aka 'censorship' is bad. And it doesn't matter if it involves
Dan Fredricksen or any other member. I for one will not return to the list
until those ridiculous attempts of 'cleaning' the list are abandoned.

Just wanted to let you know.

Michaela


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Joe,



You call it immaturity, I call it passion. Regardless, it is the part of t=
heir personalities that allows them to accomplish things that you and I can=
't. In a group dominated by introverted engineers a couple of outspoken ar=
tists can be a real breath of life. Their accomplishments and contribution=
s far out weigh any negatives and I will continue to fight for them as long=
as list members are willing to argue.



I won't even get into David Roden's supposed abundance of maturity, because=
honestly I do not want to beat David up too much over this. In my mind he=
made a simple error in judgement which could be rectified with a sincere a=
pology... an act which requires a degree of maturity. =




You recently took a couple of hits from your post about your friend selling=
lithium batteries. Some people looked at your friends web site and respon=
ded with some mildly negative posts. How did that make you feel? I notice=
d you did not light an EVDL flame war over the issue, but is that really be=
cause of your overwhelming maturity, or is it your natural laid back person=
ality? =




John and Rod are both far from laid back. They are high energy, motivated,=
passionate people. I suspect they came into this world that way, and I th=
ink it is only appropriate to focus on how their unique gifts have been use=
d to help the EVDL and give them a pass on some of the perceived negatives.



The EVDL and EV community is worse off without John and Rod around.



Anyway, I suspect by now you and I are the only ones reading this post as o=
ther have likely grown tired of this entire thread ;-)



damon







> From: [email protected]
> To: [email protected]
> Date: Tue, 4 Mar 2008 06:19:58 -0800
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] I'm having a hard time understanding this
>
> Damon, it all comes down to maturity - John and Rod aren't, David is. I
> regret having to say this, but if John and Rod had acted and posted as mo=
re
> than kids bickering, this would not have happened! I appreciate them both,
> John especially has been a mentor to many, including me; but if you had s=
een
> Rod's last post to me off-list, you would understand better. I hate to lo=
se
> them, but if they can't act as adults, then the list IS better off without
> them.
>
> Joseph H. Strubhar
>
> Web: www.gremcoinc.com
>
> E-mail: [email protected]
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "damon henry" =

> To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" =

> Sent: Monday, March 03, 2008 9:03 PM
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] I'm having a hard time understanding this
>
>
>
>
> Hi Scott Collins,
>
> I'm not sure how long you have been on this list or involved in the EV
> scene, but I don't recognize your name so I'm guessing it hasn't been that
> long. Forgive me if I'm wrong. You stated that
>
>> I also am grateful for the many knowledgeable folks
>> who are sharing their experience and insight.
>
> I totally agree with you and the fact that two of the most knowledgeable =
and
> insightful EV'rs (it looks like Bill has stuck it out although from the
> sound of his last post probably just barely) have left the list over this=
is
> exactly what I'm complaining about. If you do not know who Rod Wilde or
> John Wayland are perhaps you should google them. They have been extremely
> successful and active in promoting and improving EVs for the last couple =
of
> decades. They have been featured in all types of media all over the world
> and they have been involved in one way or another building hundreds of EVs
> and inspiring many many EV enthusiasts including myself. They have
> consistently given of their time and often resources to any one in need, =
and
> your only conduit to them has been taken away from you without you even
> knowing. So to me you seem way to casual about having lost these valuable
> resources.
>
> damon
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Helping your favorite cause is as easy as instant messaging. You IM, we
> give.
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>
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>
>
>
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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Michaela Merz wrote:
> > I just wanted to tell you, that I left the list as well. Not that I would
> > be of any importance, I just don't want to be a 'member' of a medium that
> > is censored.
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

John and Rod are not unwelcome on this list. They are free to do what 
they wish, be it to stay here, or stay away. I will respect their 
choices, whatever they are. This whole thing is overblown like crazy, 
and you need to stop, please. David asks people to be civil when 
they've gone too far out of control. He holds a message back once in a 
very infrequent while if he thinks it's going to fan a flame war. 
(Sometimes a message gets held up in the usual internet limbo, as email 
gets held up for a number of reasons, and the cries of censorship fly.) 
This thread, and all the others like it should be proof that there is no 
censorship. If this message doesn't make it to the list, and David asks 
me to reconsider my words, I will, because I am a guest in this forum, 
like everyone else. This thread is going in my filter, I cease pleading 
for it to end. I will not see any more of it. So at least I will be 
happy. 



> damon henry wrote:
> > Joe,
> >
> >
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Well put and in one sentence.

: )




> John G. Lussmyer wrote:
> 
> > Sorry, I don't find silencing children who are throwing tantrums
> > to be
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> I thought about just sending this to David to save
> bandwidth, but then decided I wanted to show public
> support of David's *moderation* efforts in this group.
>
> Seems to me this thread would not exist if we all
> stayed professional and focused on EV issues and facts
> rather than the sniping that has part of some of the
> exchanges.

Since this is my last post to the list anyway, I might as well be frank.
This list is _not_ your grandma's kitchen, nice, clean and tidy. Since I
have been a member of the list, I always understood it to be 'Mature
Audience Only'. But, as I understand it, some of you need David's help to
be able to delete postings that 'offend' you. Get a life. You can't just
switch the channel if you read something you don't like. If you don't know
how to handle your Windows computers, you don't want to build an EV.

Nobody censors you if you ask silly questions. It offends me if you don't
know the basic principles of physics. No, you can't take your 1000W
generator and extend your range (usefully). No, solar panels on your roof
won't cut it either. What's the best lead chemistry? Take a look at the EV
photo album and see what people use. Don't ask questions that have been
asked a thousand times. Google first, ask later.

Have I ever asked for censorship just because I don't like the fact that
you are too lazy to do a little research on your own? Because your
religious views, your text in your footer or your posting style offends
me? Censorship is for people who are too stupid to understand the value of
free speech. If you are attacked by a troll, be a person, stand up and
defend yourself. With words, with a lawyer with any legal means at your
disposal. But you run to the big guy with the big DELETE button. That's
disgusting.

If you want to read something clean, un-emotional and without any tough
language, get the stock quotes. I enjoyed the list for about three years.
Trolls come and go, we never had any use for censorship. But now, that gas
becomes expensive, we seem to have 'earned' plenty of fcc-regulated tv
consumers that want to extend their cleaned entertainment to the EDVL as
well. If that is what the list is going to become, it will happen without
me. Yeah - I know, it doesn't bother you. Good. Because when all the
unique (and sometimes rough) individuals are gone, you can discuss your
topics without the fear to be broadsided from someone with actual
knowledge.

Flames > /dev/null

Michaela


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

We are in the same camp on the need for censorship, and I am doing my best =
to publicly impress this on David as I know that none of the private attemp=
ts succeeded. I like you am fine with deciding for myself and have been on=
the list for 8 years enjoying the good and ignoring the bad. =


I'm not sure if you meant to send this to me privately or not, but it went =
to the list so even if I can't get John or Rod back it looks like I've alre=
ady succeeded in getting you back 

damon

> Date: Tue, 4 Mar 2008 09:29:25 -0600
> From: [email protected]
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] I'm having a hard time understanding this
>
>
> Hello Damon:
>
> I just wanted to tell you, that I left the list as well. Not that I would
> be of any importance, I just don't want to be a 'member' of a medium that
> is censored.
>
> That is sort of personal for me. I am old enough to decide on my own what
> I want and don't want to read. I don't need and want anybody deciding for
> me.
>
> I discussed this matter with David, but to no avail. He seems to want to
> make the EDVL into some form of streamlined, we love us all, kid friendly
> evening reading material. I don't believe that this is a good idea. A lot
> of people are very passionate about EVs - and where emotions are involved,
> tensions flare. That's the general idea. It worked well over the last
> years. It's the 'newcomers' that (obviously) want everything
> McDonalds-type squeaky clean and tidy - maybe even bleached and
> disinfected.
>
> Moderation aka 'censorship' is bad. And it doesn't matter if it involves
> Dan Fredricksen or any other member. I for one will not return to the list
> until those ridiculous attempts of 'cleaning' the list are abandoned.
>
> Just wanted to let you know.
>
> Michaela
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev

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----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

=

John,
=

That's a mighty snarky comment and much worse than one that earned John Way=
land a nastygram from the list admin after which he was put on the moderate=
d list. You better be careful or you may find that your next. I suggest y=
ou stop arguing with your brother right now before the big bad EVDL dad get=
s his belt out!
=

damon
=

> Sorry, I don't find silencing children who are throwing tantrums to be > =
"censorship".
> Date: Tue, 4 Mar 2008 07:57:04 -0800> From: [email protected]> To: e=
[email protected]; [email protected]> Subject: Re: [EVDL] I'm having a hard t=
ime understanding this> =

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Moderation is NOT censorship.

I vote for moderation so we can END all the personal topic BS ( which shouldn't be here in the first place) and focus on the topic which we all joined this group in the first place, EV'S!
If following the rules annoys you, I fairly sure you can un-join, I don't think there is an early termination fee. 

----WARNING RANT BEGINS HERE-----

In the "old days" in real live politically incorrect car clubs where we got our hands dirty then went to our local drive-in burger joint we didn't waste words on the Chevy guy muscling in on our MoPar turf. I miss those days of clear and defined group order with quick and decisive remedies. Now you know where I come from, a gearhead/greaser/mechanic/engineer/biker/hippy/etc/label/label/label/more/less.

I have started, joined and observed many on line groups/forums.
Groups, like this one. that are started mono-focused on a particular subject and eventually, through member input, coalesce into a workable topic range. 
Topic range and civility are the very essence of participation.
Just because this is an on line forum is no reason to vacate group by-laws.
In the real world most all meetings are governed by Roberts Rules.
Look it up, it seems many on-liner's think that because they sit at their computer, home, alone in the shorts (or less) that they should be allowed that sort of casual chaos wherever they chose to be.
When you join a well run, orderly forum you are expected to follow the guidelines that you agreed to when you entered.
I live in the Chicago area and one of the many "jokes" around here is a situation that existed around O'Hare airport some years ago.
Years ago O'Hare was surrounded by cheap open land and industrial use.
Then, because of very low land costs, people decided to build homes on the land directly under and all around the take off and approach runways. 
More and more homes with people filling up all the vacant land they could get residential building permits for.
Then guess what, they started bitching about airplane noise, formed an noise abatement group, went to the media, got attention. 
Now while they did force very costly changes in every imaginable way what they really got besides their reputation as a bunch of "WHINERS" was to get to live in the shadow of the once busiest airport in the world. 
They got what they forced their way into, to live in a noisy, congested, devalued, polluted, commercial/industrial area.
Had the political process worked correctly they would have never been permitted to build homes where they did. 
The airport was there first, and now for years the fight has been against the needed expansion of O'Hare, into where?, you guessed it, seems that they all have grown accustom to living in the chaotic mess they, themselves created.

Rant over, 
AGAIN - I vote for moderation.

My, .02
Cruiser
www.cruisersclassics.com




> Michaela Merz <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> Hello Damon:
> 
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Sweet, I second that motion.

: )


> <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> > AGAIN - I vote for moderation.
> 
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> joe wrote:
> > Damon, it all comes down to maturity - John and Rod aren't, David is.
> 
> that's not even close to true. it comes down to an ability to discern
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Sent a 3rd time... 


-----Original Message-----
From: Mike Willmon [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: Tuesday, March 04, 2008 7:25 AM
To: 'Electric Vehicle Discussion List'
Subject: RE: [EVDL] I'm having a hard time understanding this

Sent a second time...

-----Original Message-----
From: Mike Willmon [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: Tuesday, March 04, 2008 1:41 AM
To: 'Electric Vehicle Discussion List'
Subject: RE: [EVDL] I'm having a hard time understanding this

David,
Then take this challenge if John, Rod and Bill will step back into the fray.

Invite them to "re send" the exact e-mails (some of which I have seen forwarded to me but never made it to the list).

Allow the original response to post to the EVDL.

If you still feel it requires moderation, then send it to the same hole DF's e-mail goes to. That way we can all see that 1.) they are or are not moderated. And 2.) if they are moderated, why it would be that you decided they were inappropriate comments to the list. I would much prefer to see John's, Rod's and Bill's moderated e-mails than DF's, you should just send those to the trash never to take up anyone's hard drive or server space again.

What worries me David about your insistence that only DF is moderated is that I've seen an e-mail one John Wayland sent to the list. In no way was it inappropriate for discussion on an Electric Vehicle Discussion List. It was discussion about "Electric Vehicles" and parts used on them. It was not name calling to anyone except the equipment which was the subject of discussion, equipment John surely has used or he wouldn't have made the informed comments he did. I for one would take those comments as learning experiences and maybe not make a mistake that I would by only being allowed to listen to the "one side" from people who are allowed to post about how good that particular equipment was/is. 

Post those e-mails you insisted these men change before being allowed to post it to the list. You post them or allow them to be reposted by their senders. I enjoy just watching rigorous discussions as long as there is rational reasoning on both sides. Snipers that just reply "stop it" or "yeah what he said" ought to go the way of the DF e-mails. But you do nothing about them. That is truly the waste of bandwidth, not the true discussion over what heaters are good and bad and what controllers are good
and bad. I for one would love to do nothing more than cause this list
trouble for all the B.S. I have to wade through just to see some good honest discussion. If fact I just might, since everyone else is allowed to snipe in, why shouldn't I, or Damon, or John, or Rod, or Bill or anyone else with practical experience with EV's that is worth sharing.

If you haven't noticed, it is these men's posts that bring levity to the group and breaks up the monotonous "Why does a Zilla cost $2K" and "Why can't we just build a free for all to share Open Source Motor Controller"
discussions. 

I'm with Damon in his insistence that you perform outreach to these folks to help bring them back in. You say it is quite acceptable to lose a few folks over this. I say its not!

Mike Willmon
Anchorage, Alaska 



> -----Original Message-----
> From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On 
> Behalf Of EVDL Administrator
> Sent: Monday, March 03, 2008 12:24 PM
> To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] I'm having a hard time understanding this
> 
> FYI, the only currently moderated list member is Dan Frederiksen.
> 
> David Roden
> EVDL Administrator
> http://www.evdl.org/
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

I think the whole point of this thread is the fact that a good and knowledgeable EV contributor was asked to change his wording before the post would be allowed to the list. This is plain old censorship the way I see it. David does an excellent job on the Moderation part, which the way I see it, allows all posts to go through with commentary by the administrator to to help keep the flames down. However, to ask one well knowing long time EV'er to change the words in his e-mail (which were absolutely true) before being allowed to post just because someone might take exception to them is plain wrong. John's a big boy and can take the heat for his post on the list, by anyone out there that can dish it out. However being snubbed by an administrator who allows everyone else's replies to go through would make me want to leave too, and border's on what Rod accuses of this list.

The point of this thread, the way I read it initially from Damon was to rectify the Censorship that occurred last winter in an attempt to keep some good, long time EV'ers on this list to help us newbies figure out our EV's. Public apology, post the original so called "offending" messages or allow them to be posted by the originator. I've seen one in particular. And it wouldn't have caused a flame war near as bad as this one.

Mike Willmon


----- Original Message -----
From: [email protected]
Date: Tuesday, March 4, 2008 7:37 am
Subject: Re: [EVDL] I'm having a hard time understanding this
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <[email protected]>

> Moderation is NOT censorship.
> 
> I vote for moderation so we can END all the personal topic BS ( 
> which shouldn't be here in the first place) and focus on the topic 
> which we all joined this group in the first place, EV'S!
> If following the rules annoys you, I fairly sure you can un-join, 
> I don't think there is an early termination fee. 

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

...agree with Dan...
If given the choice to see Maturity or Truth on this list, I would rather see the Truth.
If it is vulgar or hard to swallow, so be it. If its offensive to some then so be it.
There are always people offended by the truth.

If there is someone's opinion about what is a good part to use on an EV then I WANT TO HEAR IT, and not have the list decide whether it was a mature thing to say. I am smart enough to take it for what its worth.....a good man's honest opinion. It was an opinion directly related to EV's, unlike most of this thread which has nothing to do with EV's.

Mike

----- Original Message -----
From: Dan Frederiksen <[email protected]>
Date: Tuesday, March 4, 2008 9:46 am
Subject: Re: [EVDL] I'm having a hard time understanding this
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <[email protected]>



> > joe wrote:
> > > Damon, it all comes down to maturity - John and Rod aren't, David
> > is.
> > that's not even close to true. it comes down to an ability to
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> MIKE WILLMON wrote:
> > If there is someone's opinion about what is a good part to use on an EV then I WANT TO HEAR IT, and not have the list decide whether it was a mature thing to say. I am smart enough to take it for what its worth.....a good man's honest opinion. It was an opinion directly related to EV's, unlike most of this thread which has nothing to do with EV's.
> >
> Mike, I read your e-mails as saying Wayland's e-mail in question did not
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

John clarified this for me. The post in question did make it to the list, =
but he immediately got a nastygram from David about it. He noticed his sub=
sequent posts were not making it to the list in a timely fasion then found =
out that David was moderating him.
=

damon> Date: Tue, 4 Mar 2008 13:14:33 -0800> From: [email protected]> To: [email protected]=
lists.sjsu.edu> Subject: Re: [EVDL] I'm having a hard time understanding th=


> is> > MIKE WILLMON wrote:> > If there is someone's opinion about what is a =
> good part to use on an EV then I WANT TO HEAR IT, and not have the list dec=
> ide whether it was a mature thing to say. I am smart enough to take it for =
> what its worth.....a good man's honest opinion. It was an opinion directly =
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Could we please stop filling my EVDL mailbox with chatter not related to
building and maintaining electric vehicles? It's sad that a "great social
injustice" has been done, please go to a social injustice forum to complain
about it. As an infrequent poster I find that when threads like this take
off, the new and inexperienced people on the list get ignored (including
myself). Then they leave because the list is not helpful to their desire to
build their own EV. I've left once already, but came back hoping to find
more EV talk and less bickering. I hope I represent the "silent majority"
somewhat and apologize for adding to the off topic thread.

Share your knowledge and experience. Help those who need help.

-Jon Glauser
-- 
View this message in context: http://www.nabble.com/I%27m-having-a-hard-time-understanding-this-tp15813752p15838623.html
Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Comments inserted...

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "damon henry" <[email protected]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, March 04, 2008 7:42 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] I'm having a hard time understanding this



Joe,



You call it immaturity, I call it passion. Regardless, it is the part of 
their personalities that allows them to accomplish things that you and I 
can't. In a group dominated by introverted engineers a couple of outspoken 
artists can be a real breath of life. Their accomplishments and 
contributions far out weigh any negatives and I will continue to fight for 
them as long as list members are willing to argue.



I won't even get into David Roden's supposed abundance of maturity, because 
honestly I do not want to beat David up too much over this. In my mind he 
made a simple error in judgement which could be rectified with a sincere 
apology... an act which requires a degree of maturity.



You recently took a couple of hits from your post about your friend selling 
lithium batteries. Some people looked at your friends web site and 
responded with some mildly negative posts. How did that make you feel? I 
noticed you did not light an EVDL flame war over the issue, but is that 
really because of your overwhelming maturity, or is it your natural laid 
back personality?

Definitely not my laid-back personailty! I just didn't feel the need to 
respond in a flame-laden way. People are entitled to their opinions, and my 
sense of well-being is not threatened by someone who doesn't like what I 
say.
I am probably not as passionate about racing as John and Rod are; but like I 
said, if you would see Rod's last post to me (off-list, and way off topic as 
well as blasphemous), you would understand where I am coming from.

Joseph H. Strubhar

Web: www.gremcoinc.com

E-mail: [email protected]





> From: [email protected]
> To: [email protected]
> Date: Tue, 4 Mar 2008 06:19:58 -0800
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] I'm having a hard time understanding this
>
> Damon, it all comes down to maturity - John and Rod aren't, David is. I
> regret having to say this, but if John and Rod had acted and posted as 
> more
> than kids bickering, this would not have happened! I appreciate them both,
> John especially has been a mentor to many, including me; but if you had 
> seen
> Rod's last post to me off-list, you would understand better. I hate to 
> lose
> them, but if they can't act as adults, then the list IS better off without
> them.
>
> Joseph H. Strubhar
>
> Web: www.gremcoinc.com
>
> E-mail: [email protected]
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "damon henry"
> To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List"
> Sent: Monday, March 03, 2008 9:03 PM
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] I'm having a hard time understanding this
>
>
>
>
> Hi Scott Collins,
>
> I'm not sure how long you have been on this list or involved in the EV
> scene, but I don't recognize your name so I'm guessing it hasn't been that
> long. Forgive me if I'm wrong. You stated that
>
>> I also am grateful for the many knowledgeable folks
>> who are sharing their experience and insight.
>
> I totally agree with you and the fact that two of the most knowledgeable 
> and
> insightful EV'rs (it looks like Bill has stuck it out although from the
> sound of his last post probably just barely) have left the list over this 
> is
> exactly what I'm complaining about. If you do not know who Rod Wilde or
> John Wayland are perhaps you should google them. They have been extremely
> successful and active in promoting and improving EVs for the last couple 
> of
> decades. They have been featured in all types of media all over the world
> and they have been involved in one way or another building hundreds of EVs
> and inspiring many many EV enthusiasts including myself. They have
> consistently given of their time and often resources to any one in need, 
> and
> your only conduit to them has been taken away from you without you even
> knowing. So to me you seem way to casual about having lost these valuable
> resources.
>
> damon
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Helping your favorite cause is as easy as instant messaging. You IM, we
> give.
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>
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>
>
>
> --
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.21.3/1308 - Release Date: 3/3/2008
> 10:01 AM
>
>
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9:46 PM


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

This is very astute since only one other has pointed out that John's e-mail=
I referenced actually did make it to the list.
(I believe David himself informed me thus as well)

Good though! Now we have at least one other (I sure hope there are more) on=
the list willing to actually dig for the truth and help verify accusations.

Follow me now...

Now search the archive for an e-mail from said poster with the following he=
ader:

Subject: Re: [EVDL] Electric Dragin' 1/8 mile times have been posted.
From: John Wayland <[email protected]>
Date: 2/13/08 11:02 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List

I hope that you find it and prove me wrong. However I was Bcc'd on this e-=
mail and I have yet to see it reach the list. After the heavy accusations =
leveled at our list administrator wouldn't you at least want to see what is=
says, even on the newly implemented evx-list?

I have read the text of this post several times and I still do not see wher=
e John:
1. used profanity
2. called anyone names
3. was not promoting the me vs. him theme

I did however see where John was trying to validly set a record straight on=
actual historical facts about electric vehicle drag racing.

I know its not my job as the list administrator to decide whether a post go=
es through but in all fairness it is quite a bit more appropriate that what=
is allowed to traverse this list of late. I think that anyone who read it=
would not have given it a second thought. Anyone who read it would probab=
ly have saw it as another in the chain revealing a little more history than=
we knew about the promotion of electric vehicles

David professes to only censoring DF at the current time. But until I see =
the post from John Wayland hit the list with the above header it will still=
be a valid post censored by the list administrator.

An attribution to Fran=E7ois Marie Arouet [Voltaire] (1694=961778) states "=
I detest what you write, but I would give my life to make it possible for =
you to continue to write=94 which translates to the more commonly used quo=
te "I may not agree with what you say, but I will defend with my life your =
RIGHT to say it." =


And so, I was happy when David announced the creation of the evx-list. Tha=
t way he could censor the list for public content as he sees fit but we as =
list subscribers still get to read what goes in there. =


I have yet to see John's post either hit the list or move to evx-list. It =
remains CENSORED.

Mike Willmon


----- Original Message -----
From: Cory Cross <[email protected]>
Date: Tuesday, March 4, 2008 12:12 pm
Subject: Re: [EVDL] I'm having a hard time understanding this
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <[email protected]>



> > MIKE WILLMON wrote:
> > > If there is someone's opinion about what is a good part to use on =
> 
> > an EV then I WANT TO HEAR IT, and not have the list decide whether =
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> MIKE WILLMON wrote:
> 
> > Now search the archive for an e-mail from said poster with
> > the following header:
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

From: "Roger Stockton" 

> Is the message in question the one I've quoted below?

Thanks for posting this Roger! I'd been waiting and waiting for it 
and thought that there had never been a reply. I guess that is why 
this is another vote for no moderation/censorship. I also hope to see 
my good friends John Wayland and Roderick Wilde return; the list 
IMHO is dead without them, as well as Bill Dube' and many others 
with exciting tales to tell.

> What part of the following, excerpted from my previous post
> with the above title, did you not understand?

I'm guessing that Dennis was well aware that it was just a street
drag, and wanted to draw attention to that. In my post just previous
to that I had said:

> The races at Woodburn, Oregon in 1997 were officially called 
> "The World's First Optima National Electric Drag Races".
> It was very clear to all involved, and an extremely exciting fact, 
> that this was the first official electric drag race ever held.
^^^^^
I'm sure all agree that the first "electric drag race" occurred the
very first time two electrics pulled up at the same intersection. ;^)
They were probably Bakers or similar, and there were most likely
modifications and speed tricks being used even back then.

In my post, I then mentioned how Dodge Vipers had participated
at Woodburn '97 and went on to say:

> If that small detail, just a technicality really, disqualifies this as being
> the first "all-electric drag race", then the honor falls to the "Saturday Night
> Electric Desert Drags" in 1998.

I should have used the same wording as above to avoid confusion.
It should have read, "the first official all-electric drag race".

For anyone who didn't click on the links, here's some pictures from
both of those EVents, including great shots of John (Plasma Boy) Wayland
being interviewed while telling the story about the incredible turn of events 
that led to his infamous nickname! (Desert Drags)

Woodburn '97 (that's Bill Dube' in his Ewectwic Wabbit)
http://www.geocities.com/evguy_2000/vid01.html

Electric Desert Drags (1998)
http://www.geocities.com/evguy_2000/vid02.html

John (voting for no moderation) Bryan

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Yes Roger, That is it. Thanks for bringing it to my attention anyway. I missed it somehow in the banter. It is actually the full text of the post which appears to have made it the round about way to the list. Officially though because it was not allowed posting by John, it appears to still be censored (at least it would be to me if I were in John's shoes). It appears John Bryan, and others who have remained silent , had missed it as well. 

It may be that if John re-submits the post and see's that it goes through unabated, he may reconsider his position. Don't know though.

I also agree (at least in principle) with most of Rogers previous post to this and won't bother the list more to rehash it. 



----- Original Message -----
From: John Bryan <[email protected]>
Date: Wednesday, March 5, 2008 2:12 pm
Subject: Re: [EVDL] I'm having a hard time understanding this
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <[email protected]>

> From: "Roger Stockton" 
> 
> > Is the message in question the one I've quoted below?
> 
> Thanks for posting this Roger! I'd been waiting and waiting for 
> it 
> and thought that there had never been a reply. I guess that is why 
> this is another vote for no moderation/censorship. I also hope to 
> see 
> my good friends John Wayland and Roderick Wilde return; the list 
> IMHO is dead without them, as well as Bill Dube' and many others 
> with exciting tales to tell.
> 
> > What part of the following, excerpted from my previous post
> > with the above title, did you not understand?
> 
> I'm guessing that Dennis was well aware that it was just a street
> drag, and wanted to draw attention to that. In my post just previous
> to that I had said:
> 
> > The races at Woodburn, Oregon in 1997 were officially called 
> > "The World's First Optima National Electric Drag Races".
> > It was very clear to all involved, and an extremely exciting 
> fact, 
> > that this was the first official electric drag race ever held.
> ^^^^^
> I'm sure all agree that the first "electric drag race" occurred 
> thevery first time two electrics pulled up at the same 
> intersection. ;^)
> They were probably Bakers or similar, and there were most likely
> modifications and speed tricks being used even back then.
> 
> In my post, I then mentioned how Dodge Vipers had participated
> at Woodburn '97 and went on to say:
> 
> > If that small detail, just a technicality really, 
> disqualifies this as being
> > the first "all-electric drag race", then the honor falls to the 
> "Saturday Night
> > Electric Desert Drags" in 1998.
> 
> I should have used the same wording as above to avoid confusion.
> It should have read, "the first official all-electric drag race".
> 
> For anyone who didn't click on the links, here's some pictures 
> fromboth of those EVents, including great shots of John (Plasma 
> Boy) Wayland
> being interviewed while telling the story about the incredible turn 
> of events 
> that led to his infamous nickname! (Desert Drags)
> 
> Woodburn '97 (that's Bill Dube' in his Ewectwic Wabbit)
> http://www.geocities.com/evguy_2000/vid01.html
> 
> Electric Desert Drags (1998)
> http://www.geocities.com/evguy_2000/vid02.html
> 
> John (voting for no moderation) Bryan
> 
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
> 

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Roger Stockton, is it possible that you just assume David is the 
reasonable one and anyone who disagrees is unreasonable.
Like someone might assume Bush is right and anyone who disagrees is 
unpatriotic

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Dan,

You need to not go there. I warned you yesterday about that. I am not 
the moderator but I do keep copies of my mail. Going this road is not 
going to be a


> Dan Frederiksen wrote:
> 
> > Roger Stockton, is it possible that you just assume David is the
> > reasonable one and anyone who disagrees is unreasonable.
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Dan,

No one said David is the reasonable one but he is the moderator of 
this site and can moderate how he sees fit. Like it or not. I know he 
has moderated at least one properly. Who here assumes that Bush is 
right and any one who disagrees is unpatriotic? Where did that come 
from?

: )




> Dan Frederiksen wrote:
> 
> > Roger Stockton, is it possible that you just assume David is the
> > reasonable one and anyone who disagrees is unreasonable.
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

No.
It's more like he finally woke up and smelled the coffee, er, the troll.
You have no idea how many people complained for months before action was
finally taken.
If anything, he's far too reasonable.
I'd have denied posting privileges in an instant on the lists I manage.
Call me a fascist, but with over 2000 members on the Electric Boats list, I
owe it to members to nip these things in the bud.
But I don't restrain braggers---only trolls, salesmen and inconsiderate
idiots.
I think I'm reasonable.

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf
Of Dan Frederiksen
Sent: Wednesday, March 05, 2008 11:10 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] I'm having a hard time understanding this

Roger Stockton, is it possible that you just assume David is the 
reasonable one and anyone who disagrees is unreasonable.
Like someone might assume Bush is right and anyone who disagrees is 
unpatriotic

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Myles you're no fascist. And John was neither bragging, cursing or trolling
in his response on the subject of the first electric drags. I wonder if
months of complaining would bring about the aroma of coffee and magically
John's post from February 13th would show up on the list in its original
format. The text of it has already made it to the list. Why is the right
thing so hard to do that it takes months to figure it out?

> -----Original Message-----
> From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On
> Behalf Of Myles Twete
> Sent: Thursday, March 06, 2008 9:25 PM
> To: 'Electric Vehicle Discussion List'
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] I'm having a hard time understanding this
> 
> No.
> It's more like he finally woke up and smelled the coffee, er, the troll.
> You have no idea how many people complained for months before
> action was
> finally taken.
> If anything, he's far too reasonable.
> I'd have denied posting privileges in an instant on the lists I manage.
> Call me a fascist, but with over 2000 members on the Electric Boats list,
I
> owe it to members to nip these things in the bud.
> But I don't restrain braggers---only trolls, salesmen and inconsiderate
> idiots.
> I think I'm reasonable.

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