# Deciding on a motor/battery combo



## reiderM (Dec 30, 2020)

Hey folks I'm new to the forum so sorry if I posted this in the wrong subtopic.

I'm looking to convert a 2010 Ford Escape with a 5-speed, and I've narrowed down the motor and battery combinations to three. 

A Netgain Hyper9 (not high voltage) and 8 tesla model s modules 4s2p configuration
A Hyper9 HV and 7 tesla model s modules all in series
A leaf motor (with the stock fixed differential removed) and thunderstruck VCU with some of the new OX drive batteries from Electric GT (using tesla batteries would be crazy expensive to get the DC voltage high enough for the leaf inverter)
One of the advantages of the Hyper9 systems are that there are motor adapter plates available for my transmission, so I wouldn't need to fabricate one on my own.

Which one do you think I should go for?


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## MattsAwesomeStuff (Aug 10, 2017)

Who's giving you this advice?

I don't know if I've seen a single Hyper9 project complete by an amateur, they seem a bit more popular for conversion shops that want you dropping tens of thousands on a conversion, for a drop-in product. My opinion is that they're overpriced, untested, and underengineered compared to almost anything else. Mostly just overpriced, I'm sure they're fine otherwise. They're purpose-built for the DIY EV market which is.... almost zero vehicles a year. 

Back in the day, 10 years ago, when people were doing DC builds, people were buying Impulse and Warp 9s, and even then for almost no point compared to a $200 used forklift motor which is functionally the same thing.

A Leaf motor is at least engineered to OEM standards and proven to work in, I dunno, 2000x as many vehicles as Hyper9s have ever been sold? (~500,000 Leafs out there, I would be shocked if there were even 250 total Hyper9s, and more than 25 inside vehicles versus conversion shop shelves).

I'd be highly partial to the Leaf motor, and for you to call up a scrapper yourself, not order it from a conversion shop.

Using the Leaf inverter, you have 2 open source solutions: OpenInverter.org and EVBMW.com . The control board from OpenInverter takes lower level control of the inverter and you can tell it to do whatever you want. The one from EVBMW emulates the old Leaf signals and uses them as-is, so you can only demand from it whatever the original Leaf did. Both are very affordable.

But while you're considering, this last year Prius parts have taken off in the DIY scene, as they're far cheaper than Leaf parts and generally easier to hack. Depends if the extra $1000 or two matters to you. Also, the inverters have almost everything else you'd need: DC-DC converter for your 12v, air conditioner compressors and inverters, high voltage boost converters so a lower voltage battery can spin the motor faster if/when it needs to, a second inverter that can be used as a battery charger. All nicely bundled.

Batteries are a separate conversation, but I'd say hold off on buying them, as everyone takes longer to finish their build than they think and battery options are changing all the time.


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## reiderM (Dec 30, 2020)

Funny you say that because I've seen almost the opposite. I have heard relatively little about conversions with leaf motors, but quite a bit with various Netgain motors.

One thing that I think would be important is having enough power. Wikipedia says that the motor in a Toyota Prius is only 60kw. That's not going to be enough for converting a Ford Escape, which is a fairly heavy car.

As for the leaf motor, I've looked into the thunderstruck VCU so far. Not yet any of the other things.

I've put aside quite a bit of money for this project so I don't think I will need to make big sacrifices on motors and inverters. Other Prius parts seem interesting though. How do you "hack" factory Prius parts like the charger, DCDC converter, and AC compressor?

Good idea on the batteries though. It seems to be really the only part where innovation and new technologies seem to be constantly coming available.


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

By removing the "stock fixed differential" from a Leaf motor, do you mean removing the whole fixed-ratio transaxle, leaving just the motor? Why would you do that, and then have to adapt the motor to the Escape transaxle... just to use the Escape's AWD system?


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## MattsAwesomeStuff (Aug 10, 2017)

reiderM said:


> quite a bit with various Netgain motors.


I'm trying to think of a single DIY (not conversion shop) build that uses them, and, I'm drawing a blank. Not to say there aren't any, just nothing memorable comes to mind.



> One thing that I think would be important is having enough power. Wikipedia says that the motor in a Toyota Prius is only 60kw. That's not going to be enough for converting a Ford Escape, which is a fairly heavy car.


You can overdrive the hell out of them. Toyotas have fantastic engineering on them. Just bulletproof. Everything fails gracefully, and only when necessary. The Prius Gen 3 inverter was tested to 700hp as I recall, when I think it finally tapered itself back due to either overcurrent or heat, I forget which. And I think that was without any water cooling. You can pick one up for like, $150, plus the control board swap (toss the old, screw the new one down right back into the old one's place), and you're ready to go. The Gen 2 is good for 480hp.

The motors (transaxles really) themselves aren't quite as overbuilt (I would doubt you'd get 700hp), but they do have dual-motors and one of the open source boards has slaved the outputs of the inverter to drive both of them at the same time, automatically. I think they're more than capable of handling a vehicle 3000 lb vehicle. The usual logic is, if you need more power, then instead buy a GS450H motor, which is inside the transmission, it's good for lots and lots of power and easily set up for RWD (which your Escape won't be). A bit more pricey, harder to find, but seems to have more development interest lately. A third option is to get the Toyota MGR, a rear motor/diff combo thing, and add that independently onto your existing FWD build. It wasn't designed for full-time use, so it's suggested to add an oil pump and a small cooler to it.



> How do you "hack" factory Prius parts like the charger, DCDC converter, and AC compressor?


AC compressor, not sure if anyone's released an open source solution.

DC-DC converter on the Prius Gen 2 is as simple as 1 wire to 12vdc+ I think, it's a separate module inside the inverter. Good for around 1000 watts IIRC. It's sufficient to power a smaller heater directly, if you needed a modest heating controller.

The charger just uses one of the inverters to charge the battery. I think it's built into the functionality on the Prius Gen 2 unit Johannes developed, not sure what's there for Gen 3.

...

If you've money to spend, I guess just spend it. If you're looking at spending $10k-20k on a conversion, yeah, just go spend money. If you're limited by budget, there's a lot more that's accessible.


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## Evbeddy (Jan 5, 2020)

Hi Matt and ReiderM

For what it's worth I agree with Matt. The oem gear is alot better engineered and now cheaper than the old netgain and hyper stuff and many people are doing great work hacking inverters to make things easier for the rest of us non electrical engineer types. The hardest part can be choosing the right oem product to use when the choice is so great (tesla, leaf, prius, gs450h, outlander....etc).

On that note, Matt (or anyone), fo you think you could run the leaf motor from a prius inverter? The leaf motor has a great form factor and can be mounted in more situations more easily than the prius transaxle but the prius inverter seems to have more head room for development. 

Thoughts?


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## reiderM (Dec 30, 2020)

Evbeddy said:


> On that note, Matt (or anyone), fo you think you could run the leaf motor from a prius inverter? The leaf motor has a great form factor and can be mounted in more situations more easily than the prius transaxle but the prius inverter seems to have more head room for development.
> 
> Thoughts?


Thanks for the response! Why would you want to run a prius inverter with a leaf motor? The leaf motor and controller are essentially in a "stack" and can't be easily disassembled. I think that the liquid cooling lines run through both the motor and controller as well. Also, the leaf motor and inverter are more powerful than those in the prius. 

My suggestion would be to just use a prius motor if you're going to use the prius inverter. Take what I say with a grain of salt though, as I haven't yet completed a conversion.


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## Evbeddy (Jan 5, 2020)

Im still a newbee to conversions too. The leaf motor gearbox and inverter all separate into individual pieces even tho Nissan packages them as a tower. The leaf motor is alot easier to mount in a conversion in alot of cars compared to the priuses transaxle. 

While in factory form the leaf is more powerful than the prius, it seems the prius inverter has alot of headroom for further development as well as a buck boost converter built in and very well engineered protections from factory. 

Im no expert tho so id love to hearfrom some others with more knowledge.


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## reiderM (Dec 30, 2020)

MattsAwesomeStuff said:


> You can overdrive the hell out of them. Toyotas have fantastic engineering on them. Just bulletproof. Everything fails gracefully, and only when necessary. The Prius Gen 3 inverter was tested to 700hp as I recall, when I think it finally tapered itself back due to either overcurrent or heat, I forget which. And I think that was without any water cooling. You can pick one up for like, $150, plus the control board swap (toss the old, screw the new one down right back into the old one's place), and you're ready to go. The Gen 2 is good for 480hp.
> 
> AC compressor, not sure if anyone's released an open source solution.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the response. I'm willing to spend what's needed within reason to get this car to be a capable daily driver with at least 120 miles of range (hopefully closer to 150). My rough estimates would place this at a pack capacity of 45 kwh.

Of course, I don't want to throw away money for no reason, so I'm definitely still considering the leaf motor. My biggest concern with a leaf motor is the voltage required to run it. Obviously, you get less power at 200 volts of input DC power than at the maximum that the leaf inverter accepts (400). For that reason, I would definitely want to have a pack voltage that is close to the max that a Nissan leaf inverter accepts, since they aren't particularly powerful to begin with. Using tesla modules, this is way too expensive considering each module is only 22v or so nominal and cost close to $1500 each. My concern with leaf modules is the degradation and energy density. I'm not sure how I'd fit 45 kwh of leaf modules into my Escape. Also, winters get cold where I live, so not having a way to heat the batteries is a big downside. Same goes for the electric GT batteries, which cost even more than tesla modules per kwh.

I'm having a hard time finding anyone who used a prius motor and inverter (at least from a quick search). Could you point me towards some resources for that? If what you're saying can be achieved in practice, I feel like that's almost a no-brainer. Looking at the prius motor online though, it seems small, and, well, prius-like. Obviously I'm pretty new to conversions and you have loads more experience, so what it looks like to me might not be very accurate in reality.

Thanks again for your time.


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## MattsAwesomeStuff (Aug 10, 2017)

Evbeddy said:


> On that note, Matt (or anyone), fo you think you could run the leaf motor from a prius inverter?


Certainly, yes.

You'd have to run through a tuning procedure that, at first seemed like a bit of an EE black magic but now has a fairly simple-brained set of both video and text tutorial. I think you're likely to succeed. And, regardless, there's now a parameter database so if ever anyone does get a good set of robust parameters, you can just use theirs. Or, subscribe to it and have it update as people further refine it.



reiderM said:


> Why would you want to run a prius inverter with a leaf motor?


Form factor, cost, or perhaps the donor has a blown inverter?

It's always hard pinning down which open source project will see more development in the future, as it depends so heavily on the passions and efforts of the few doing the hardest essential work of it (some of us can supplement and make it easier to adopt or polish, but lack the ability to lead or sail the efforts into new waters). That said, the versatility of the Prius Gen 3 (and to some degree, the Gen 2) seems to be leading the pack, back and forth with the GS450H. New stuff is happening monthly. I haven't heard Leaf news in a year or two.



> My suggestion would be to just use a prius motor if you're going to use the prius inverter.


I don't agree with that, there's no advantage.

Suppose as you do that you only had a Prius inverter and are not changing that. 

The Prius motor is presumably weaker than the Leaf motor. What is gained from moving from a Leaf down to a Prius motor? What does this have to do with which inverter you chose? A Prius inverter is no more paired or suited to driving a Prius motor than a Leaf motor. The choice of motor and inverter can thus be made independently of each other.

Package-wise, I generally think it's simpler to keep the Leaf inverter with the Leaf motor, just because they mechanically mate and were designed that way. The Prius inverter is mounted elsewhere, so, it's fine for either motor.



reiderM said:


> My biggest concern with a leaf motor is the voltage required to run it. Obviously, you get less power at 200 volts of input DC power than at the maximum that the leaf inverter accepts (400).


Indeed, and that's an important distinction to be made. Many critics presume that motors and inverters MUST be run at their max OEM voltage, when appears to be never true. Perhaps if you're using the original CAN comms, the computer would probably crap out, but, inverter-wise that's not true. In fact, Toyota hybrid hardware (Prius/Camry/Lexus/Highlander/Corolla/etc) generally are built for cars with low voltage packs (200ish), and then use a boost converter built into the inverter enclosure to rack it up. However, tests show that it only does this when needed, not constantly, that boost converter is toggled in and out of use.

That said, do you need the additional power? Would you use it? Would you notice if your pack was run at a lower voltage? Depends on you.



> My concern with leaf modules is the degradation and energy density.


Energy density, yeah.

Degredation, apparently first gens are awful, but after that they're all respectable, nothing frightening.

Again, battery considerations are agnostic of motor or inverter considerations. Choose what works for you.



> I'm having a hard time finding anyone who used a prius motor and inverter (at least from a quick search). Could you point me towards some resources for that?


Because it's a recent(ish) development, with respect to how long it takes people to complete project cars, there aren't many out there. But that's the direction I see most people headed. To the point of, conversion classes taught last year amounted to somewhere around a hundred projects focused on repurposed hybrid hardware in a conversion.

You'll see a lot more of them on the OpenInverter.org forums, where the community that's done the reverse engineering and support for it has congregated.

I'd say there are more repurposed hybrid projects out there than all other current builds combined, based on, when people do their research, what seems most accessible and likely to succeed for them. So, use that as your metric if you'd like. This is of course speculation, I'm going by what I observe and mentally catalog.



> Looking at the prius motor online though, it seems small, and, well, prius-like.


I would say it's not performance-oriented, no. I'm weak on the specifics of the degree to which they're abusable beyond OEM spec. As I said, inverters seem to be good for 800%, short term, but I wouldn't say motors would be anywhere close.



> Obviously I'm pretty new to conversions and you have loads more experience, so what it looks like to me might not be very accurate in reality.


Don't let me overstate my experience, I've yet to actually complete a conversion myself, though that's typical of large projects for me, life halts progress. That said, I do make efforts to help others and to collimate the advice and efforts of the community into something more usable by beginners, so, that's my perspective. I'm offering the advice I'm seeing is working best for people with the current DIY EV meta.


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

reiderM said:


> ... The leaf motor and controller are essentially in a "stack" and can't be easily disassembled.





Evbeddy said:


> ... The leaf motor gearbox and inverter all separate into individual pieces even tho Nissan packages them as a tower.


The very early Leaf setup has the motor, inverter, and accessory package (charger, DC-DC, whatever...) in a stack which can be readily separated, with external cables between them. After that, the stack is more integrated, with terminals sticking out of one component to insert into sockets in the next one, so that if you unstack them you need to fabricate cables, connectors, and seals for the openings in the housings.


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## mayes8229 (Dec 8, 2020)

I've actually been reconsidering my low-voltage (108V nominal) setup this last week and I'd like to move to a high-voltage system. I have an HPEVS AC35x2 dual-stator induction motor and Curtis 1239E controllers to drive it (along with some other stuff). This would work with the adapter plate for your 5 speed as long as it will fit in your engine bay (the motor case is about 24" long). PM me if you're interested. The parts are all un-used. Zero miles on any of it, so they're basically new but will be cheaper than buying from a retailer.

Sam


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## remy_martian (Feb 4, 2019)

reiderM said:


> Hey folks I'm new to the forum so sorry if I posted this in the wrong subtopic.
> 
> I'm looking to convert a 2010 Ford Escape with a 5-speed, and I've narrowed down the motor and battery combinations to three.
> 
> ...


* A Netgain Hyper9 (not high voltage) and 8 tesla model s modules 4s2p configuration

Sounds like that'll be within your abilities and addresses your tooling limitations. You'll never finish your project with the amount of stretch and mods the experts here are suggesting. 

Frankly, the difference in cost needs to factor your time. Saving $2000 only to put in an extra 500 hours of effort says a job at McDonalds is a better idea.

As an aside, putting the Tesla modules in parallel means the series configs need to be perfect in terms of voltage, or you'll have some serious fireworks. Best way I can think of is to charge them close in voltage, then put a huge bleed resistor between the two series strings and let the strings equalize over a few days. Then connect in parallel.


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## Evbeddy (Jan 5, 2020)

MattsAwesomeStuff said:


> Certainly, yes.
> 
> You'd have to run through a tuning procedure that, at first seemed like a bit of an EE black magic but now has a fairly simple-brained set of both video and text tutorial. I think you're likely to succeed. And, regardless, there's now a parameter database so if ever anyone does get a good set of robust parameters, you can just use theirs. Or, subscribe to it and have it update as people further refine it.
> 
> ...


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## Evbeddy (Jan 5, 2020)

That was my feelings Matt and Im glad you think its possible. I was thinking of using a gs450h gearbox but this might be a new avenue to explore due to the gs450h external oil pump putting me off and the availability of leaf and prius parts where I am compared to everything else.


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## reiderM (Dec 30, 2020)

remy_martian said:


> As an aside, putting the Tesla modules in parallel means the series configs need to be perfect in terms of voltage, or you'll have some serious fireworks. Best way I can think of is to charge them close in voltage, then put a huge bleed resistor between the two series strings and let the strings equalize over a few days. Then connect in parallel.


Thanks for providing a different perspective. A Prius-based system just doesn't seem tested enough at this stage, and the GS450H has the motors integrated into the transmission, which wouldn't work well with my front-wheel drive Ford Escape.

When you say that the voltages need to match perfectly, isn't that something that a BMS will handle anyways? I'm 100% planning on using a BMS with this conversions because there is no way I'm taking any chances with lithium fires from overcharging/unbalanced cells. Right now the Orion BMS 2 is what I have planned to buy when the time comes. I haven't poured over specs and features for that BMS too extensively, but I know that a number of people have used them in their conversions with tesla modules.


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## reiderM (Dec 30, 2020)

mayes8229 said:


> I've actually been reconsidering my low-voltage (108V nominal) setup this last week and I'd like to move to a high-voltage system. I have an HPEVS AC35x2 dual-stator induction motor and Curtis 1239E controllers to drive it (along with some other stuff). This would work with the adapter plate for your 5 speed as long as it will fit in your engine bay (the motor case is about 24" long). PM me if you're interested. The parts are all un-used. Zero miles on any of it, so they're basically new but will be cheaper than buying from a retailer.
> 
> Sam


Sent. Thanks for the offer mate!


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

reiderM said:


> When you say that the voltages need to match perfectly, isn't that something that a BMS will handle anyways?


No, the BMS won't help unless you have the modules in separately-managed strings, and even then at some point you need to connect them and at that point if they are at different voltages it will be dramatic.


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## reiderM (Dec 30, 2020)

brian_ said:


> No, the BMS won't help unless you have the modules in separately-managed strings, and even then at some point you need to connect them and at that point if they are at different voltages it will be dramatic.


Ah ok. So how does everyone else set up and use parallel connections then?


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## Evbeddy (Jan 5, 2020)

remy_martian said:


> Frankly, the difference in cost needs to factor your time. Saving $2000 only to put in an extra 500 hours of effort says a job at McDonalds is a better



Hi Remy

I agree with you the quickest way to get a car up and running is to buy a kit type arrangement like a hyper 9 and getba few tesla modules. If your aim is simplicity and speed then that's probably a good idea.

The downside is cost and the OP asked people for there opinions. I would rather try to get a oem product to run because there cheaper, better engineered and part of the journey for me to to learn some things.

I dont think either approach is wrong, its more horses for courses in my book


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## remy_martian (Feb 4, 2019)

The OP was a multiple choice test. Which of a, b, or c was the best

Matt answered a multiple choice test with a writein of (d). That gets you an F in any test I've taken.

Almost all (except Brian) veered off topic supporting Matt's genius vs answering the OP's question. 

The man said he had the money. Instead you asshats are pushing a total noob into f*cking with 400V when that scares the $hit out of me, a seasoned EE, let alone a total rookie. 

He said he could get adapter plates, and now you want him to do measure-ups, fitting, mechanical drawings, tolerancing, and picking machine shops that might laugh him out of town.

This thread became a joke, and of course a total noob would get starry-eyed and veer off course with all this "expertise"

Will a, b, or c work? Which is best? That was the question.


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

Evbeddy said:


> I agree with you the quickest way to get a car up and running is to buy a kit type arrangement like a hyper 9 ...


The HyPer 9 doesn't really come as a "kit" - it is just available with a compatible controller. The rest of the project (battery, battery case and mounting, BMS, charger, DC-to-DC, transmission and mounting the motor to it, etc...) Is just as custom and do-it-yourself as with any other motor. It's not what many new members seem to expect, which is a kit of all of the right components all ready to install in the specified vehicle to be converted.

For buy-it-and-install-it convenience, the HyPer9 has an advantage over the Leaf motor that in addition to having an immediately usable controller available, there are also available adapters to bolt it on to the car's existing transmission in many cases (although I have not checked to see if that includes the Escape).


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## OR-Carl (Oct 6, 2018)

reiderM said:


> I've narrowed down the motor and battery combinations to three.
> 
> Which one do you think I should go for?


Hey, I actually asked a very similar question when I first started about a year ago, and also got a lot of opinions thrown at me .

I had also gravitated towards the hyper 9 and tesla packs, mostly because that is what EV-West lists on their website. They have the most polished store-front for EV parts, and I think that probably draws in a lot of inexperienced people. I have ordered a few small things from them, and I have to say I have not been terribly impressed.

I guess my first piece of advice is to resist the urge to let your project get its direction from outside sources- be that expert opinions, or those with something to sell. It is really overwhelming at first, but if you intend to stick this out, it will become clear as you wade in. The thing that you know better than any expert on here is what you are capable of doing, and I will add, what you think is fun. If gutting a leaf and trying to trick that pile of wires into thinking it is still pushing a leaf around appeals to you, then by all means, do that. If your idea of "working on cars" is changing fluids and wiper blades, you will probably get a lot farther if you spend the money on a solution that involves just bolting pieces together.

I personally think that for a novice, the hyper 9 is probably a good bet, and the compatability with a CAN-EV adapter plate will simplify your life. I would suggest you do a little searching locally for batteries before buying anything online. Check craigslist, and maybe also try and track down any business that repairs or refurbishes EV or hybrid batteries in your area. They probably know where all the dead electric vehicles go, and might be able to hook you up. Batteries are going to be the biggest expense, so it is the most logical place to try and save a few bucks. Whichever route you decide to go, I look forward to seeing your project come together!


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## reiderM (Dec 30, 2020)

Evbeddy said:


> Hi Remy
> 
> I agree with you the quickest way to get a car up and running is to buy a kit type arrangement like a hyper 9 and getba few tesla modules. If your aim is simplicity and speed then that's probably a good idea.
> 
> ...


I don't necessarily mind the added complexity of a different system like a prius inverter and motor, but this car is going to be my daily driver so I need quite a bit of range (at least 120 miles, hopefully 150). The only way to be able to drive the car that far is to use tesla modules. So then I've already invested north of $10k on batteries alone, so I might as well go with something that I can be sure will work (the hyper9). Saving $2k on a build that will be around $20k all in probably isn't worth it for me considering that the $2k saved also adds loads of complexity and time, and the very real possibility that I can never get it working. 

Also, 150 miles of range really isn't acheivable with cheaper batteries like leaf or chevy bolt batteries without grossly overloading my car and having to put a bunch of batteries in the trunk.

For future conversions, I think I'd enjoy working within a tighter budget and having to do more work to get it spinning. But I need a reliable EV daily driver, so I feel that a Hyper 9 works best for me.


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## reiderM (Dec 30, 2020)

remy_martian said:


> The OP was a multiple choice test. Which of a, b, or c was the best
> 
> Matt answered a multiple choice test with a writein of (d). That gets you an F in any test I've taken.
> 
> ...


I appreciate the sanity check and I have to agree with you here. Especially with fabrication, as I have limited tools and have not yet learned how to weld.

While Matt's recommendations are certainly interesting and would be a cool thing to work on, they're untested and unproven in the conversion world (at least from what I can see). I need a decently reliable car with a good amount of range. This puts me into tesla battery territory, at which point I've already committed a significant amount of money to this project, so I find it hard to justify skimping on the motor and inverter.


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## mayes8229 (Dec 8, 2020)

Sometimes you need to hear some other opinions to realize which path you wanted to take most. You should do what gets you excited about the process and end result, so you're not second-guessing along the way.


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## reiderM (Dec 30, 2020)

OR-Carl said:


> Hey, I actually asked a very similar question when I first started about a year ago, and also got a lot of opinions thrown at me .
> 
> I had also gravitated towards the hyper 9 and tesla packs, mostly because that is what EV-West lists on their website. They have the most polished store-front for EV parts, and I think that probably draws in a lot of inexperienced people. I have ordered a few small things from them, and I have to say I have not been terribly impressed.
> 
> ...



It's funny that you brought up EV west, because I've had some experiences with them too. EV West is clearly not all that interested in working with individual converters. I've talked to a number of suppliers about Hyper 9s and all of them clearly wanted my business, EXCEPT for EV West. They said that it would cost >$600 to ship the motor to me, which is outrageous. It was pretty clear that they basically wanted me to take my money somewhere else. Weird business strategy but who knows.

What did you end up going with for your conversion?


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## reiderM (Dec 30, 2020)

mayes8229 said:


> Sometimes you need to hear some other opinions to realize which path you wanted to take most. You should do what gets you excited about the process and end result, so you're not second-guessing along the way.


100%

I think that this thread has pushed me further into Hyper 9 territory to be entirely honest.

I started tearing out the combustion-related components of the Escape a few days ago, and I have to say I'm very excited to see how this goes and so far its gone far smoother than I could have hoped for.


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## mayes8229 (Dec 8, 2020)

reiderM said:


> It's funny that you brought up EV west, because I've had some experiences with them too. EV West is clearly not all that interested in working with individual converters. I've talked to a number of suppliers about Hyper 9s and all of them clearly wanted my business, EXCEPT for EV West. They said that it would cost >$600 to ship the motor to me, which is outrageous. It was pretty clear that they basically wanted me to take my money somewhere else. Weird business strategy but who knows.
> 
> What did you end up going with for your conversion?


EV West really prefers to be a conversion shop and they're doing mostly Tesla conversions. Seems to me like they sell parts to DIYers because they have the suppliers, not because they want to be in the DIY business (Makes sense honestly).


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## MattsAwesomeStuff (Aug 10, 2017)

remy_martian said:


> You'll never finish your project with the amount of stretch and mods the experts here are suggesting.


Frankly, I don't think you know what you're talking about.

The "mods" are literally "undo 6 bolts, toss that board away, bolt this one back into its place".

Wiring the DC-DC converter (which a conversion WILL need), is literally as simple as one 12v wire to turn it on. And it's free, compared to having to buy an equivalent product from a shop for, oh, hundreds, not to OEM automotive standards.

This in context of someone converting an entire vehicle. It's within their ability.



> Matt answered a multiple choice test with a writein of (d). That gets you an F in any test I've taken.


Yes, it's a fail, if you feel the need to be a pedantic defensive hypercritical assbag.

Except that this isn't a rigid test with a strict set of multiple choice answers that only an idiot and a robot could answer. This is a beginner asking for advice.

A beginner who appears to have gotten most of his information before now, from people who profit from making those choices.

It's completely normal to give advice to people that might not be asking the perfect questions. I'll give a simple example:
--
"My diagram says 14 but I think 14 is way too big. Should I use:
A - 5mm wrench
B - 6mm wrench
C - 7mm wrench
to tighten this bolt?"

And I might say "Perhaps your diagram is faded, it's probably not metric, it's not 14 it's actually a 1/4" bolt and you just can't see the slash."
--

But no, IT'S AN F, YOUR IDEA IS STUPID WHY CAN'T YOU JUST ANSWER THEIR MULTIPLE CHOICE QUESTION?

Also, I'm curious. I've asked his before but didn't get an answer...

Remy, you seem to be the antithesis of these forums. Every response you give is to tell everyone that everything is impossible, pay for a professional, spend the most money, buy these particular products. It's all but never in an actual DIY spirit. I wonder why you're actually here since you hate everything everyone does. It seems like your motivation is to discourage anyone from actually DIYing. Do you happen to sell EV services or parts? By chance, what parts do you happen to sell?



reiderM said:


> It's funny that you brought up EV west, because I've had some experiences with them too. EV West is clearly not all that interested in working with individual converters.


I'd avoid dealing with EV West.

One forum member has been getting ghosted by them for almost a year now. He bought just about everything he needed for his conversion from them, gotta be ballpark $10,000 and I think literally every component they sent was faulty. They give him the runaround, making him waste time on bizarre attempts at repairing their hardware. They were taking weeks to return his phone calls, meanwhile selling to anyone interested in buying. They have since just ignored him entirely.

Shitty products, zero accountability. Shitty customer service.

This is a sad state of affairs, they used to be quite highly considered years ago.



reiderM said:


> I think that this thread has pushed me further into Hyper 9 territory to be entirely honest.


Good, whatever works best for your goals. I've no skin in the game.



> I don't necessarily mind the added complexity of a different system like a prius inverter and motor, but this car is going to be my daily driver so I need quite a bit of range (at least 120 miles, hopefully 150). The only way to be able to drive the car that far is to use tesla modules. So then I've already invested north of $10k on batteries alone, so I might as well go with something that I can be sure will work


So, if I were to summarize your choice as a footnote for others, your chain goes:

1 - I need lots of range.
2 - I can't get range without using lots of space.
3 - I don't have lots of space, so I need to use Tesla Modules
4 - I have to spend lots of money because Tesla Modules are expensive.
5 - I might as well pay for a Hyper 9 because there's no point in saving money compared to the cost of Tesla Modules.

More or less, along those lines?

No wrong answers, everyone picks the solution that makes sense for them.

Please do keep in touch as you progress through your build and keep us posted on your progress.

...

A story that might change how you consider things...

Once upon a time, the way to go with DIY EVs, were large format prismatic "EV" cells. You'd be dumping $10,000+ in batteries into a car, for a specialized EV product. OEM EV didn't really exist, except perhaps 1st gen Leafs, and 1st gen Leaf cells weren't cheap and failed often.

Years later we now see, there have been zero projects that used those large prismatic cells that didn't fail at some point due to them, (abysmal quality control and a fringe product), and the difficulty of those packs. Conversely, those that use OEM battery packs have not seen any pack failures. Surely we're only seeing a portion, but, the evidence here shows the split is nearly 100% failure, and nearly 0% failure from those two choices.

... and there are still people here who insist that large prismatic cells are THE way to go, the ONLY respectable choice, and dirty "used" OEM cells are over-complicated, stupid, unsuited for EVs, etc. And wouldn't you know it, guess what the people saying that, specialize in selling in their shops, or have stuck in their inventory here while acting like they're part of the community versus just playing a marketing role?

Well, it's taken a couple years but that battle has mostly been won, (i.e. you're not even considering anything other than used OEM automotive-quality cells), it's pretty hard to push large prismatics with a straight face anymore.

Hyper9? Yeah, probably a fine motor. Good value for the price? Not really.
The controller they have for it? Better than OEM EV? I have my doubts.
Is the shop you buy it from going to help support it, with how many EV shops have gone under in the last few years? ... worth being skeptical.
Is the DIY community going to help you support it when it breaks, because it wasn't engineered anywhere close to OEM EV standards? The community might help, but, it'll probably be proprietary and it's a lot of effort to put in to help one particular person. Go look through the 1-post, unanswered requests for troubleshooting proprietary inverters here. Odds are not good you'll ever find help. Throw it away and go buy a new one if they still sell them.

With the open source solutions (that almost all the EV shops then clone, then rebrand as their own), I don't think I've seen a single person actually get dead-ended. Everyone pitches in and helps them figure out where they got stuck (and it's usually doing new or atypical/custom things).

It's not quite the "I'll just spend more because I want something guaranteed to work" certainty you think you're getting when you pay for presumed professional quality.


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## remy_martian (Feb 4, 2019)

reiderM said:


> Ah ok. So how does everyone else set up and use parallel connections then?


"As an aside, putting the Tesla modules in parallel means the series configs need to be perfect in terms of voltage, or you'll have some serious fireworks. Best way I can think of is to charge them close in voltage, then put a huge bleed resistor between the two series strings and let the strings equalize over a few days. Then connect in parallel."


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## reiderM (Dec 30, 2020)

MattsAwesomeStuff said:


> The "mods" are literally "undo 6 bolts, toss that board away, bolt this one back into its place".
> Wiring the DC-DC converter (which a conversion WILL need), is literally as simple as one 12v wire to turn it on. And it's free, compared to having to buy an equivalent product from a shop for, oh, hundreds, not to OEM automotive standards.
> 
> So, if I were to summarize your choice as a footnote for others, your chain goes:
> ...


I think using a OEM DCDC converter is definitely something I'd want to do, so thank you for the suggestion.

I have found a supplier that has been very helpful from the start and I'm confident he will be available to help with any issues I have with a hyper9 motor. 

I would just like to see some more examples of people using OEM hardware (prius, lexus gs450h, etc) before using them myself. I'm not saying that it can't be done, or even that I can't do it, more that I would like to wait and see how others do it.

My situation seems to be that my range and battery demands dictate my motor options. 

I put the leaf as an option because I know that the thunderstruck VCU is well designed and VERY well documented. The same cannot be said for most OEM parts, with which very little has been done.


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## OR-Carl (Oct 6, 2018)

reiderM said:


> What did you end up going with for your conversion?


Hey, I have basically been doing my project in the reverse order that most people suggest - I bought batteries first, and have been working on getting them installed in my pickup. I paid 4700 bucks for a 36kwh pack out of a Mercedes (that used tesla cells). I found them locally, so I decided to pick them up while they were available. I am planning on running them as 2 series strings, which complicates things a little bit. I had one module drop about .25volts, but all the other ones are all really close in voltage. I think it might have been the onboard BMS board that caused the drop, but I am not sure. After unplugging them all, they stopped drifting apart. I am going to plug each string into my charger in sequence, and use the BMS balancing feature to get them back to the same voltage before I connect them. A quarter of a volt would only push about 5 amps, but I would like to get them within a tenth of volt before I hook them up. 

As for motors, I have actually not really decided yet. I have the whole engine bay to work with, so I figure once I have a rolling battery bank, I could hook just about anything up to the transmission. I am a sort of leaning towards trying an old-school DC forklift build - mostly because I like the idea of salvaging a still functional motor and putting it back to use. I have zero experience with machining, and I have never even done business with any sort of machinist, so I am still a little daunted by getting the adapter plate and hub made. If it turns out to be more complicated than I like, I will just spend a few grand more and get a hyper 9 and an adapter plate from CAN-EV. I am not constrained by a shoe-string budget, and I dont feel like buying a ready-made solution is "not DIY-enough" for me, but everyone is entitled to their own adventure. 

Anyway, good luck! And one more thing, however long you think it is going to take, double that. Also, add 50% if your wife is pregnant, or if you think there will be another pandemic. I thought I would be driving on electric by now for sure


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## MattsAwesomeStuff (Aug 10, 2017)

OR-Carl said:


> Hey, I have basically been doing my project in the reverse order that most people suggest - I bought batteries first, and have been working on getting them installed in my pickup.


There aren't many truck conversions, and, a truck is among the easiest battery solutions compared to trying to cram cells into crevices in the engine bay, under the back seat, in the trunk, etc. So, that makes sense for you to have started there (or at least not avoided it until last).



> I have zero experience with machining, and I have never even done business with any sort of machinist, so I am still a little daunted by getting the adapter plate and hub made.


Not rocket science, you might need a $20 dial indicator.

You can feel imbalances, you can measure run-out.

Basically, bolt a plate onto the motor, guess where center is as you line up and clamp your transmission. Drill a hole in the transmission housing so you can stick the indicator in, and then manually twist it. If you're far off of center, smack the transmission with a rubber mallet to nudge it closer to true. Fudge this around a bit until you get it centered. Then, turn the motor on slowly and feel for wobble, shouldn't be any. Leave it clamped together and drill through the bolt holes on the transmission into the mounting plate, and bolt it up tight. If there's pins, drill through pins to help keep it really perfectly centered (more accurate than bolts can perhaps achieve).

Or, just drop both off at a machine shop and tell them what you want done. $1000, any shop could do it easy. Transmissions will have a spec sheet showing the exact dimensions of the spacing of the alignment pins and where center is. Any machine shop should be able to match that to the centerline of the motor shaft.

That's all that you're buying when you buy an adapter plate, the end result of someone going to a machine shop and asking for the same thing, then marking up their price.

Here's a video of Damien who did it with woodcutting tools and a lazy hole saw:






Or from 8 years ago, the 3-part series of how to make/align an adapter plate with hardly any tools (and even many of the tools he uses aren't needed):

Part 1:





Part 2:





Part 3:
(skip it, it just shows what it looked like after he trimmed it with the jigsaw).



> Anyway, good luck! And one more thing, however long you think it is going to take, double that. Also, add 50% if your wife is pregnant, or if you think there will be another pandemic. I thought I would be driving on electric by now for sure


50%? You're a pro if you're getting it done with only 50% more than you presumed it would take. That's some top tier time estimating.






Hofstadter's law - Wikipedia







en.wikipedia.org





"Hofstadter's Law: It always takes longer than you expect, even when you take into account Hofstadter's Law"

I too have several "summer" projects or "weekend" projects from umm... 8 years ago and counting. My own EV being a "summer project" in 2019 :/


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## reiderM (Dec 30, 2020)

MattsAwesomeStuff said:


> 50%? You're a pro if you're getting it done with only 50% more than you presumed it would take. That's some top tier time estimating.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I've had a mental goal to get this done within 9 months. If I don't have it done by around then, I don't have a car. It's good motivation to get working haha.


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## OR-Carl (Oct 6, 2018)

MattsAwesomeStuff said:


> Not rocket science, you might need a $20 dial indicator.
> 
> You can feel imbalances, you can measure run-out.


Matt, if everything was as easy as you make it sound, you would not have so many "weekend projects" that are still not finished 8 years later . The reality is that I could certainly make an adapter plate. On my third try, I might even get one that was close enough that it would last a decently long time, not break off my motor shaft, or destroy my transmission. The real question is, would a person with zero experience really know that they had done a good enough job?

I am not saying that making your own adapter plate is a foolish idea. Anyone who thinks that sounds like a fun project should go for it. There are plenty of people (with a lot more experience, tools, etc) that have made very respectable looking adapters. I have also seen some videos of things that look like one step up from just welding the shafts together. I do not want to have to worry about my drive system, so the peace of mind from knowing that it was done by someone with the right skills is worth a few bucks to me, personally. 



reiderM said:


> I've had a mental goal to get this done within 9 months. If I don't have it done by around then, I don't have a car. It's good motivation to get working haha.


Haha, yeah, ultimatums and deadlines are great . I did not take into account how much time I would spend just cleaning up rust on my truck, for example. It was not really necessary, but while everything was torn apart anyway, I figured it should get done. If you ignore everything that is not mission critical, you could probably get the thing rolling in 9 months. It will probably never really be done


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## reiderM (Dec 30, 2020)

OR-Carl said:


> Hey, I have basically been doing my project in the reverse order that most people suggest - I bought batteries first, and have been working on getting them installed in my pickup. I paid 4700 bucks for a 36kwh pack out of a Mercedes (that used tesla cells). I found them locally, so I decided to pick them up while they were available. I am planning on running them as 2 series strings, which complicates things a little bit. I had one module drop about .25volts, but all the other ones are all really close in voltage. I think it might have been the onboard BMS board that caused the drop, but I am not sure. After unplugging them all, they stopped drifting apart. I am going to plug each string into my charger in sequence, and use the BMS balancing feature to get them back to the same voltage before I connect them. A quarter of a volt would only push about 5 amps, but I would like to get them within a tenth of volt before I hook them up.


Sounds like you got a good deal for batteries. 36kwh for under $5k is a steal in my book.


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## reiderM (Dec 30, 2020)

OR-Carl said:


> Matt, if everything was as easy as you make it sound, you would not have so many "weekend projects" that are still not finished 8 years later . The reality is that I could certainly make an adapter plate. On my third try, I might even get one that was close enough that it would last a decently long time, not break off my motor shaft, or destroy my transmission. The real question is, would a person with zero experience really know that they had done a good enough job?
> 
> I am not saying that making your own adapter plate is a foolish idea. Anyone who thinks that sounds like a fun project should go for it. There are plenty of people (with a lot more experience, tools, etc) that have made very respectable looking adapters. I have also seen some videos of things that look like one step up from just welding the shafts together. I do not want to have to worry about my drive system, so the peace of mind from knowing that it was done by someone with the right skills is worth a few bucks to me, personally.
> 
> Haha, yeah, ultimatums and deadlines are great . I did not take into account how much time I would spend just cleaning up rust on my truck, for example. It was not really necessary, but while everything was torn apart anyway, I figured it should get done. If you ignore everything that is not mission critical, you could probably get the thing rolling in 9 months. It will probably never really be done



Oh man, rust sucks. Before the Escape, I bought a 1996 Jeep Cherokee 2-door for $1k. Didn't do my due diligence and ended up with a rusted out shitbucket. Fighting rust is a losing battle. Good luck with your conversion, and the rust lol. 

Also I'm sort of siding with you on this one. Fabrication is 100% not easy and requires quite a bit more than $20 in tools. Like you said, I'm sure I'd be able to make an adapter plate (or get one made for relatively cheap if I can't), but building a whole new front-end with new axles, mounts, etc. is not easy at all. 

Peace of mind is also a huge factor. I don't know if I trust myself enough to risk both my life and more importantly my fancy new motor just because I messed up a bit on the construction.

My idea of fun is wiring high voltage shit and connecting throttle pedals to motor controllers. Not so much a fan of working with CAD and the like.


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## OR-Carl (Oct 6, 2018)

Yeah, if you can find batteries locally, the price will be hard to beat. Of course, you are never going to be 100% sure on what you are getting, but anecdotally I have not heard of anyone buying an OEM pack out of a wrecked car that was a real nightmare. I asked the seller to send me the module voltages, and they were all really close together, so I figured the pack was probably in good health. 

I have heard good things about Volt packs, and they seem fairly common. Though, even 2 full volt packs might come up a little short for the range you are trying to get. Part of the reason I bought the pack that I did was that they are 7s modules - which makes them really close in voltage to a 24v nominal system. (I live off grid, so if the truck doesnt pan out, I will have an extra battery bank with like 30 days of storage ).

I live in a place where rust is not really a problem, so I didnt really have a lot of experience with it. The truck spent a couple winters farther north, so most of the rust was pretty superficial. The truck will probably never drive in salt again, so I am crossing my fingers that it wont give me problems. It is awful to deal with, though.


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## reiderM (Dec 30, 2020)

OR-Carl said:


> I have heard good things about Volt packs, and they seem fairly common. Though, even 2 full volt packs might come up a little short for the range you are trying to get. Part of the reason I bought the pack that I did was that they are 7s modules - which makes them really close in voltage to a 24v nominal system. (I live off grid, so if the truck doesnt pan out, I will have an extra battery bank with like 30 days of storage )..


I've thought about and looked at other options, but I still think that the tesla modules are the only option that would fit my needs at the moment. Sucks that I have to sell my soul to be able to afford them, but they really cant be beat it seems. A nice benefit of the tesla batteries over anything else really is that I can still sell them later. Unless I fuck something up REALLY bad.

It's also crazy how little power our homes use relative to EVs. A single roadtrip in a tesla is like the same as powering every light in a 3,000 square foot house for like a week or something.


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## MattsAwesomeStuff (Aug 10, 2017)

OR-Carl said:


> Matt, if everything was as easy as you make it sound, you would not have so many "weekend projects" that are still not finished 8 years later .


Naw, my issue with completion isn't excessive challenge or roadblocking, quite the opposite, that's when I'm working the hardest on it. It's that the build is exciting until you can see the end in sight and then it's just a matter of doing the work. But meanwhile there's other projects that are in their exciting stage. And I work 7 long days a week but still have a "I'll do it in the evening/weekend" default mentality, so, the time I commit to doing things is time that doesn't exist in my life. 



> On my third try, I might even get one that was close enough that it would last a decently long time, not break off my motor shaft, or destroy my transmission. The real question is, would a person with zero experience really know that they had done a good enough job?


I think you sell yourself short. If you're ready to tackle a DIY EV build, I think it's within your scope of efforts and abilities, your first time. What makes you worse than anyone else who did it their first time?

Plan B is to pay a shop to do it, no more expensive than buying a plate off the shelf and locking yourself into other choices because of it.



reiderM said:


> Sounds like you got a good deal for batteries. 36kwh for under $5k is a steal in my book.


Before the word got out, (our fault), you could buy a set of Volt batteries for like $600. If a junkyard happened to have two, probably could've picked them up for $1000. But, told a few too many people about that and, there aren't _that_ many Volts out there, prices shot way up within 3-6 months.

Still a good deal I'd say. And bulletproof.


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## reiderM (Dec 30, 2020)

MattsAwesomeStuff said:


> I think you sell yourself short. If you're ready to tackle a DIY EV build, I think it's within your scope of efforts and abilities, your first time. What makes you worse than anyone else who did it their first time?
> 
> Plan B is to pay a shop to do it, no more expensive than buying a plate off the shelf and locking yourself into other choices because of it.


I'm not too worried about the adapter plate. I could definitely figure out a way to make one or get one made if needed. I more think that it is unrealistic for me to be able to rebuild the entire front end, if I were to use something like a gs450h, which would require that I get rid of the current transmission, halfshafts, etc.


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## Tremelune (Dec 8, 2009)

The reason you see lots of HyPer9s on Instagram is because professional shops pass the cost onto customers, and nobody wants the risk of the unknowns of a used motor that might change over time...It's easier to standardize your other parts around the HyPer9 than the Leaf. It also turns out, like, _very, very_ few people on the planet are converting ICE cars to electric in their home garage. Indy shops are catching wind that EV conversions could be more profitable than junkyard 302/LS conversions.

For the DIYer, HyPer9 vs Leaf comes down to packaging and cost. Leaf adapters will be custom, which could drive the cost of a Leaf setup above a HyPer9 setup when all was said and done. Given the same overall cost, the Leaf seems to be the better motor, though it is larger in certain dimensions. The HyPer9 might leave more space for batteries.

I'm still waiting for someone to release CAD files of Leaf adapters that have been confirmed to work smoothly to 10k RPM...That would certainly take some of the uncertainty out of having adapters made up. I'm of the mind that, once adapted, it's nice to be able to replace the whole motor for a few hundred bucks if something happens.

I wouldn't bother with a Prius motor, but it sounds like it might save a lot to go with a Prius DC-DC converter (and charger?) instead of that being another grand or two.

For batteries (if you're not going to buy a whole Leaf), I'd look into a wrecked Chevy Bolt. These things are going for $10-15k in great running shape, and the modules in the 66 kWh pack are a nice form factor and spec.

Random note: According to Thunderstruck, the Leaf inverter works down to 140V.


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## blackterminal (Oct 14, 2021)

reiderM said:


> Ah ok. So how does everyone else set up and use parallel connections then?


This is a older thread but Id like to say I had no issues putting my batteries in parallel. They came from the same source pack and I measured them on the most positive and most negative terminals, they were the same. I then connected them (outside) and no issues. I left them apart for years then reconnected them again with no issues. Zero. It doesnt mean you dont have to be careful. Just be aware and measure the voltages and if they are quite different then perhaps use a resister as others suggested.


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## reiderM (Dec 30, 2020)

blackterminal said:


> This is a older thread but Id like to say I had no issues putting my batteries in parallel. They came from the same source pack and I measured them on the most positive and most negative terminals, they were the same. I then connected them (outside) and no issues. I left them apart for years then reconnected them again with no issues. Zero. It doesnt mean you dont have to be careful. Just be aware and measure the voltages and if they are quite different then perhaps use a resister as others suggested.


Yes I recently got my project rolling (ended up going with a Hyper9 and tesla modules 5s2p), paralleled the modules without issue even with around a 0.12 volt delta between each string. The internal resistance of the batteries is high enough that the current flow between strings was essentially zero. Took a few hours to equalize and now reading 0v between packs.

I think with a voltage delta of >0.5 volts I'd consider using a bleed resistor to slow the balancing. It's worth doing the math beforehand using the internal resistance of each string and the voltage delta to do a quick V = IR to calculate current flow.


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## remy_martian (Feb 4, 2019)

V=I*(R1+R2)

🤓


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