# Mercedes Sprinter conversion help



## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

massawe said:


> So far I've been looking at Sprinter vans for the conversion. We will be living out of the van (me, my wife, and our small boy), so it would be nice to have the space, but of course an RV is just too large.


Anything set up to live in for travel is a recreational vehicle, or "RV", and they come is a wide range of sizes... both much larger than a Sprinter and significantly smaller. Most of the largest are Class A, meaning that their entire body is built by the RV manufacturer, usually on a truck-style chassis. Perhaps you meant that a _Class A_ motorhome is too large, since most of them are quite large (usually 8'/2.4m to 102"/2.6m wide and starting at 30 feet / 9 m long), although some (such as the discontinued Winnebago Via) are about the size of a large Sprinter.

A converted Sprinter is an RV - specifically, it is a Class B motorhome (meaning that it is built from a van), and the Sprinter is a very popular choice for Class Bs due to the available high roof. The Sprinter has been available in two generations (the second substantially larger than the first), and each generation has been available in three lengths and more than one height, so selection of the specific configuration is important.



massawe said:


> I'm not totally opposed to a smaller vehicle, but I'd really like the extra headroom the sprinter provides.


I would not want much smaller than the largest Sprinter for full-time use by a family of three, but there are other choices which are only moderately smaller. Since the Sprinter was introduced, both Ford and Fiat Chrysler have brought their similar Euro-style commercial vans to North America, so the Ford Transit and Ram ProMaster (a variant of the Fiat Ducato) are options. All of them offer a high roof like the Sprinter, and all come in multiple lengths. The ProMaster is the only one which is front-wheel-drive, giving it a somewhat lower cargo area floor height... and perhaps more flexibility in laying out components under the floor.

I think it is going to be a challenge packaging 60 kWh of battery into a vehicle of this size, along with all of the tanks and other equipment needed for a functional RV.

There is also the question of whether or not a battery-electric motorhome is even a useful design (it depends on where one is traveling), but that wasn't the question which was asked...


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## massawe (Jul 27, 2018)

Thanks for the response Brian. The RV classes have always confused me. Basically I am looking for something similar in size to the Sprinter, Class B. I've actually looked at some of the other vehicles you mentioned, and I'm open to these as well. The Ram ProMaster looks like it also has decent space, and a sturdy chassis to carry the extra weight. It may come down to what I can find locally, I'm starting with material collection early so I hope to be a bit of an opportunist.

I was thinking I could run two 'benches' along the sides of the cargo compartment to store the batteries. I realize that this would use up valuable storage space, but I really don't mind traveling light. I can probably do without many of the standard RV luxuries as well, certainly no shower, and I can get creative with toilet options. Once I feel good about a potential range and the feasibility of the mechanics then I will start to model the inside of the vehicle in CAD to plan things out.

All this said, perhaps your final statement is actually the most relevant. I am willing to make a lot of sacrifices to do this road trip all-electric, but of course there is always a limit. I guess what I have in my mind is that I can cruise slowly down I5, stopping frequently at friends houses, RV parks, and national parks. I won't have a time limit, so I can afford to charge off 120V when needed. On some days I would hope to charge midway, and get 200 miles covered, on some days less than 100 miles would be fine, or even just sitting around for a day waiting for it to charge off 120V is fine. From looking at maps of charging stations it seems like I should have no problem along the coasts. There will probably be some challenges crossing the country, but I'm hoping with careful route planning I can minimize my times getting stuck. I was also thinking of bringing a small gas generator in case I do run out of juice, at least I can get another charge without calling a tow truck.

I'm very interested in any concerns that you or other might have with this type of plan. I've looked for other threads on this but haven't found much. I will be quitting my job to do this trip, and I enjoy moving slowly when I travel, usually by bike and bus, so I don't plan to zip across the country at any point. 

I'm getting a fantastic deal on the batteries and motor so that's why I chose 60kWh. If the concern is price, I don't really need to go smaller. If the concerns are more about load bearing and practicality, then I could always use some of the batteries for a different project.

Thanks! I come here humbled by all the fantastic projects and wide body of knowledge being shared.


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## Emyr (Oct 27, 2016)

I'm just starting a camper conversion on a 2015 Peugeot Boxer (essentially a Fiat Ducato) size H2L3. The Sprinter is generally a less practical vehicle, for a given cargo capacity.

Comparing the Boxer H2L3, 13 cubic metres volume with the Long+High Sprinter (MB also calls this H2L3 as of 2018), 14 cubic metres volume, both 3.5T GVW, the Sprinter is

Volume: 35 cuft more
External Width (ex mirrors):2.25" narrower
Max load width: 3.5" narrower
Roof height: 4" higher
Load sill height: 4" higher 
Internal height: 0.5" less.
Floor length:2'4" longer
Wheelbase: 11.5" longer
Overall length: 3'2" longer (Boxer is 19'8", Long Sprinter is 22'10")
Kerb Weight: at least 815lb heavier (depends on spec), so that much less payload

UK list price for H2L3 before tax and delivery, a new Sprinter costs about 20% more.

Reasons to choose the Sprinter for an EV conversion in the US:

The Sprinter has been available in North America years longer than the ProMaster, so availability of affordable used vans and parts should be better.
With the Sprinter's higher floor, you may be able to *carry your batteries underneath*, so you can use the L2 and have the same space post-conversion.


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## massawe (Jul 27, 2018)

Hey Emyr, it's great to hear someone tackling a similar project. I have been surprised that so few people are converting these types of vehicles.

The Peugeot looks like a nice vehicle. I don't think they will be very easy to find around here though. I think in the end I will probably have a short list of vehicles and will scan the classifieds until I find one in the right state. I will add the Peugeot to the list, so I think now I'm looking for a Sprinter, a ProMaster, or a Peugeot. The Sprinters are by far the most common around here, so that's partially why I started my plan with this vehicle. I hope to spend less than $10k on the base vehicle.

How many kWhs and what type of motor do you plan to use for your Peugeot? What range are you hoping for? 

I'm constantly thinking about how nice it would be to an EV road trip in Europe, where you can get to another country in a single 100 mile charge, as opposed to here, where it takes 300 miles just to get out of my state! The camping is fantastic over here though


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

massawe said:


> The Peugeot looks like a nice vehicle. I don't think they will be very easy to find around here though.
> ...
> I will add the Peugeot to the list, so I think now I'm looking for a Sprinter, a ProMaster, or a Peugeot.


massawe, I assume that you are in North America; there are no Peugeot vehicles here. The equivalent to a Boxer (or Ducato) is the ProMaster, so your current list is just Sprinter or ProMaster. I suggest considering the Ford Transit as well.



massawe said:


> The Sprinters are by far the most common around here, so that's partially why I started my plan with this vehicle. I hope to spend less than $10k on the base vehicle.





Emyr said:


> Reasons to choose the Sprinter for an EV conversion in the US:
> 
> The Sprinter has been available in North America years longer than the ProMaster, so availability of affordable used vans and parts should be better.
> With the Sprinter's higher floor, you may be able to *carry your batteries underneath*, so you can use the L2 and have the same space post-conversion.


While Sprinter parts may be more readily available, they're from Mercedes, so prices will likely be high. As for used Sprinters... first-generation Sprinters appear to have greater rust problems than anything else sold here in decades, and the second generation seems to be going the same way. I would suggest as much caution regarding Sprinter rust as I would regarding Chrysler (Ram) quality control.

While the Sprinter may have more under-floor space due to the higher floor, it also has a shaft running down the middle, and available space depends greatly on the details of the structure. It's time to crawl under some vans...


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

massawe said:


> The RV classes have always confused me. Basically I am looking for something similar in size to the Sprinter, Class B.


Quick review of motorhome types in the North American classification system:

Class B - van body
Class C - truck cab and chassis, with RV body added for "house"
Class A - truck chassis, with entire body ("house" and cab area) added to make RV
The best thing about Class B for a home-builder is that you don't need to build any body (especially with those newer tall vans that don't need an extended roof). A Class C could be built from a cargo "cube van" truck (like the mid-sized U-Haul rental vans, 10-foot and larger). Most Class B designs don't have a good second sleeping area.

For any class, commercially available motorhomes of your selected class and on the selected platform (van model) can provide lots of floorplan and configuration ideas. I suggest looking at European models in addition to those sold here, since they have been building in the Sprinter and Ducato vans for a long time, and have some different ideas than are typically used here. For instance, Hymer has expanded to the North American market by buying Roadtrek and now sells both their Euro designs and the Roadtrek designs in the same Ducato/ProMaster vans.



massawe said:


> I've actually looked at some of the other vehicles you mentioned, and I'm open to these as well. The Ram ProMaster looks like it also has decent space, and a sturdy chassis to carry the extra weight.


All of the commercial vans (Sprinter, ProMaster, Transit...) are constructed to carry substantial load - literally tons of cargo - so they would be suitable for the RV and EV gear.



massawe said:


> I was thinking I could run two 'benches' along the sides of the cargo compartment to store the batteries. I realize that this would use up valuable storage space, but I really don't mind traveling light. I can probably do without many of the standard RV luxuries as well, certainly no shower, and I can get creative with toilet options. Once I feel good about a potential range and the feasibility of the mechanics then I will start to model the inside of the vehicle in CAD to plan things out.


Battery packs under benches could work, but it would leave very little storage for anything else, particularly in a Class B. Class A - and to a lesser extent Class C - motorhomes are prefered by some people largely because they are normally designed with a relatively high floor and lots of outside-accessible storage space under the floor. We don't use all of the storage in our Class A, but I think we would if it were our only home (i.e. full-timing). All I can suggest is renting the target size of RV for a test trip, and carefully considering what you take and whether the storage works out to be adequate.



massawe said:


> All this said, perhaps your final statement is actually the most relevant. I am willing to make a lot of sacrifices to do this road trip all-electric, but of course there is always a limit. I guess what I have in my mind is that I can cruise slowly down I5, stopping frequently at friends houses, RV parks, and national parks. I won't have a time limit, so I can afford to charge off 120V when needed. On some days I would hope to charge midway, and get 200 miles covered, on some days less than 100 miles would be fine, or even just sitting around for a day waiting for it to charge off 120V is fine. From looking at maps of charging stations it seems like I should have no problem along the coasts. There will probably be some challenges crossing the country, but I'm hoping with careful route planning I can minimize my times getting stuck. I was also thinking of bringing a small gas generator in case I do run out of juice, at least I can get another charge without calling a tow truck.


One plan for EV RVing is to stay at campgrounds with serviced sites. If they have 50 amp / 240 V service, that could work pretty well... but in some areas very few campgrounds have this service. 30 amp / 120 V is much more common, and you need a lot of time to get recharged at that rate (especially since you can only use part of that to charge as you need some for living)... assuming that the campground operator doesn't object to excessive use of power. The bigger problem might be that a full-timer usually cannot afford to pay $50 a day, every day (so $19K/yr), to have a serviced site. Accommodating friends and relatives can run out quickly, and would rarely have even a dedicated 15-amp 120V circuit for RV power.

It is also worth thinking about how everything in the RV is powered. Traditionally, RVs run on propane for cooking, heating water, and space heating. If you are going EV to avoid burning fossil fuels, then you would logically need to replace these as well. Solar panels can replace the energy used for moderate electrical loads, but only very limited cooking and not any significant heating.


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## massawe (Jul 27, 2018)

I definitely think the class B is the right size for me. My wife and I are used to small spaces. We bike toured for 5 months and slept in a tiny backpacking tent almost every night, with no complaints. One of the other reasons I have been looking at the Sprinter is that I think it would be one of the safer options for carrying our child. From my research it seems like Class A motorhomes never really have a safe 3rd seat, and trucks are not recommended for children. With the Sprinter I would hope to leave one of the pilot chairs in the back for the kid. I know nothing is perfectly safe, and I'm fine to accepting some risk, but the larger motorhomes just seem like the rear completely falls apart in an accident. They also get far less aerodynamic, and I imagine moving to a larger vehicle would have a significant hit on the range.


Your thoughts on bouncing around between serviced sites seems pretty close to what I had imagined for parts of my trip. I think my goal would be to spend long stretches of time at campsites in national parks, and then bounce along between serviced sites, homes, and hotels in between these cheaper, more natural sites. I may also do some contract work from the road which could help cover the cost of serviced sites if needed.



All of these questions are excellent, and I definitely need to do more planning in this regard. At the same time I do want to get back to my original question though: Assuming a Sprinter van, with the 60kWh battery pack, and the 135kW motor, what kind of range do you think would be possible, and do you think the 135kW motor would be appropriate for the vehicle? I know it's all guesses at this point, but I feel like your guess is probably going to be closer than mine. Just for the heck of it, my guess is that I could get slightly over 100 miles to a charge, but this is not based on much experience (I have a Volt at home, and took a class on EVs back in college).


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

massawe said:


> One of the other reasons I have been looking at the Sprinter is that I think it would be one of the safer options for carrying our child. From my research it seems like Class A motorhomes never really have a safe 3rd seat, and trucks are not recommended for children.
> ...
> I know nothing is perfectly safe, and I'm fine to accepting some risk, but the larger motorhomes just seem like the rear completely falls apart in an accident.


Class A motorhomes have reinforced structure for roll-over protection only in front; I don't know how well that works, and certainly would not want to be in the rear in a crash. This is one reason for Class C motorhomes - it saves the RV manufacturer the effort of designing and constructing a suitable cab structure. Of course a Class B with a factory high roof should be even better.

Seats behind the front two in a Class A or Class C motorhome typically have only lap belts, and might be questionable in other aspects as well.



massawe said:


> With the Sprinter I would hope to leave one of the pilot chairs in the back for the kid.


A cargo van won't have any rear seats, and you might not want all the windows of a passenger van... if you can even find one of a suitable size. Fortunately, the upfitter or body builder manual for your chosen van will likely document how seats should be mounted in the rear. For the Sprinter, try Daimler's Upfitter Portal for information; for the ProMaster try the Ram Body Builder's Guide. Other brands will offer similar support, and I can't imagine why anyone would attempt a conversion without consulting these sources... unless they just didn't know about them.



massawe said:


> They also get far less aerodynamic, and I imagine moving to a larger vehicle would have a significant hit on the range.


I don't know if good Class A motorhomes are any worse than vans in aerodynamic shape, but a large box does certainly mean more frontal area and so more total drag. Certainly there seems to be no attention paid to underbody airflow in most of them (motorhomes of any type, or commercial vans of any brand).

Mass is also an issue, because more weight means more rolling drag, and because more mass means more energy to accelerate (and regenerative braking is not 100% efficient).

On the other hand extra length within the same model of van won't add any aero drag, and won't add much mass. If not towing and not trying to park in car-sized spaces, I would want a long van - likely the longest available in the target model, although I wouldn't want the dual rear wheels of the longest Sprinters and Transits.



massawe said:


> Assuming a Sprinter van, with the 60kWh battery pack, and the 135kW motor, what kind of range do you think would be possible...


For a rough estimate of energy consumption, and thus range, you could compare the Sprinter to a known EV and corresponding car. For instance, a Nissan Leaf is basically an electric Nissan Versa, and a Sprinter uses perhaps two to three times the energy per distance travelled as the Versa... so the range of a 24 kWh Leaf might be comparable to a 66 kWh Sprinter. Yes, that's really rough!

The motor size shouldn't greatly change the motor efficiency, so it won't matter much to range.


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## Elliot (Jul 6, 2018)

Hey I really dig this idea, and I think that the biggest reason that there hasn't been more EV RV (isn't that catchy?!) conversions in North America is due to the amount of nay-sayers around here... gotta be really passionate about something to do anything new. That's not necessarily a really bad thing, but I digress... Anyway, I wanted to post this link - a guy converted a VW bus to electric with a good sized solar array on the roof, and if my calculations are correct then he's only running about 10kWh of useable energy! If he can do it in this little van using lead-acid batteries, with a wife a 2 kids nonetheless, I see no reason not to give it a shot with your large Li-Ion battery bank in a larger van. I look forward to reading about it in the future!!

Here's the link: https://www.designboom.com/technology/solar-electric-volkswagen-camper-van-12-02-2016/


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

Elliot said:


> Anyway, I wanted to post this link - a guy converted a VW bus to electric with a good sized solar array on the roof, and if my calculations are correct then he's only running about 10kWh of useable energy! If he can do it in this little van using lead-acid batteries, with a wife a 2 kids nonetheless, I see no reason not to give it a shot with your large Li-Ion battery bank in a larger van. I look forward to reading about it in the future!!
> 
> Here's the link: https://www.designboom.com/technology/solar-electric-volkswagen-camper-van-12-02-2016/


I haven't found it yet, but this was previously discussed. It is almost certainly a fraud, since it is technically implausible. The author may be well-intentioned, but he has not objectively described or assessed his system. The "tech specs" page of his website provides no technical specifications!  His purpose is to get you to watch his YouTube videos and donate to him (why? ) for his next project, not to provide objective information.

So, if he could do it then others can... but there's no good evidence that he can do what he says he's doing.


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## Meni Menindorf (Mar 17, 2018)

Hey Massawe,

I'm just noticing your thread. I have a similar EV RV I am planning. Just read through about half the thread, and wanted to chime in!



brian_ said:


> although some (such as the discontinued Winnebago Via) are about the size of a large Sprinter.


And the notorious Winnebago LeSharo which I am using! Moderate weight class of just under 6,000 lbs. Plenty of head room, and already set up for comfortable living ~ unless you are really excited about designing a custom intentional living space as well? 



massawe said:


> Hey Emyr, it's great to hear someone tackling a similar project. I have been surprised that so few people are converting these types of vehicles.


I am really surprised too! It seem like this would be a really obvious choice for the entire Van Life community~ Such hip trendiness to live out of one's vehicle for a while, it seems like these would be about ready to blow up! I have often considered pitching my proto-type LeafSharo to Nissan/Winnebago as a partnership~ People dig vintage. And 3 Leaf Batteries should give a LeSharo well over a 120 mi range. 



Elliot said:


> I think that the biggest reason that there hasn't been more EV RV (isn't that catchy?!) conversions in North America is due to the amount of nay-sayers around here... gotta be really passionate about something to do anything new.


Dig it! I'm gonna start using it~ or should it be . . . eRV? And for sure, it takes passion to continue to struggle to achieve something a little bit crazy and everyone things is damn near impossible. But it's really not. . . just going to take some $ and dedication.


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## Meni Menindorf (Mar 17, 2018)

My Winnebago LeSharo uses a 100hp engine stock. The Nissan Leaf uses a 107hp motor, so this should be an adequate fit. UQM looks like an intersting company! Do you mind if I ask what you paid for your PP135? Looks like they have some pretty slick transmission solutions too~


I was calculating for my LeSharo that if it had 90kWh of battery, it should be able to achieve a roughly 120 mi range. My Nissan Leaf weighs 3,500 lbs, and has a 24 kwh battery which carries it almost 100 mi. My LeafSharo will hopefully not weigh much more than 6,000 lbs after the conversion, (maybe wishful thinking after adding ~1,500 lbs of li-ion?). So here's my generous-rough math: LeSharo roughly twice as heavy as Leaf ~ with 24kWh it would go about 50 mi ~ so with MORE than 3 times as much capacity, it would hopefully go at least 120 mi


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## Elliot (Jul 6, 2018)

brian_ said:


> I haven't found it yet, but this was previously discussed. It is almost certainly a fraud, since it is technically implausible. The author may be well-intentioned, but he has not objectively described or assessed his system. The "tech specs" page of his website provides no technical specifications!  His purpose is to get you to watch his YouTube videos and donate to him (why? ) for his next project, not to provide objective information.
> 
> So, if he could do it then others can... but there's no good evidence that he can do what he says he's doing.


You have some points here that are not invalid and the article was poorly written, with little or no sources specified, but that does not necessarily negate the actual information contained in the article. A quick Google search for "solar ev VW bus" turns up other articles. One is here: https://siamagazin.com/this-is-a-fully-solar-powered-electric-vw-bus/
It shows the motor and cites more specific information.

Here's another, going in to "phase 2" which was mentioned in the article found at the previous link: https://www.motherearthnews.com/green-transportation/solar-electric-vw-bus-phase-2-zbcz1707

I suggest doing the search I mentioned and clicking on "images" to easily find the van. There is probably a dozen articles of this van and another, all from different websites (and, presumably, authors)

It is wise to be cautious, with so many wild impostors and frauds on (and even off) the 'net, but always being suspicious and unwilling to accept new information or even pursue new knowledge is not.


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

Elliot said:


> You have some points here that are not invalid and the article was poorly written, with little or no sources specified, but that does not necessarily negate the actual information contained in the article. A quick Google search for "solar ev VW bus" turns up other articles. One is here: https://siamagazin.com/this-is-a-fully-solar-powered-electric-vw-bus/
> It shows the motor and cites more specific information.
> 
> Here's another, going in to "phase 2" which was mentioned in the article found at the previous link: https://www.motherearthnews.com/green-transportation/solar-electric-vw-bus-phase-2-zbcz1707
> ...


I agree that other sources are important, and that the designboom article is useless. But the builder's own site makes it clear that this is not what it claims to be.

Most online articles will be re-hashes of other online articles, "written" by people who know nothing more about the vehicle than is provided by the article which they are rehashing. I suppose there might be some content buried in the builder's YouTube videos which others are willing to dig out, but I have better things to do with my time.

The SIA article is outdated and provides no information about solar system output or the van's consumption - it is useless for this discussion and fits the category of nothing more than a rehash.

The Mother Earth news article - by the builder - says


> Currently I am fitting 192 Calb Cam72 Lithium Iron Phosphate batteries. These batteries will increase my storage capacity by almost 4 times and reduce weight by 200lbs! Taking it easy with the 10kw-hr lead pack, I could go 50 miles. Now with 44kw-hr of storage and 200 less pounds compared to my lead pack, I will be inching towards the 200 mile range mark.


So he has not driven the Phase II project, and is just making up numbers with no real data.



Elliot said:


> It is wise to be cautious, with so many wild impostors and frauds on (and even off) the 'net, but always being suspicious and unwilling to accept new information or even pursue new knowledge is not.


I would be very happy to find new information - that's what makes my day.  I'm just not seeing it here.


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## Elliot (Jul 6, 2018)

brian_ said:


> I agree that other sources are important, and that the designboom article is useless. But the builder's own site makes it clear that this is not what it claims to be.
> 
> Most online articles will be re-hashes of other online articles, "written" by people who know nothing more about the vehicle than is provided by the article which they are rehashing. I suppose there might be some content buried in the builder's YouTube videos which others are willing to dig out, but I have better things to do with my time.
> 
> ...


The builder's own site - you mean Apparent Energy? That is the company he co-founded which works with solar energy, not an EV site at all.

If most of the online articles are rehashes, I wonder why they all have different photos?

I'm wondering if you see the bit of info that you seem to have allowed to fall between the cracks - it doesn't matter if he has driven the Phase 2 outcome or not, as the part that you quoted specifically shows that he drove it beforehand... which is a counterexample to your claim that this is "most likely a fraud" and "technically improbable" (also please keep in mind that improbable for one, does not mean improbable for another)

The article in Mother Earth News is just a build update and it's from 2017. If he drove it before with the lead-acid batteries, and he obviously has everything in place to drive it with the lithium pack, what evidence is there to suggest that he's not driving it now? As far as the "making up numbers" with "no real data" - isn't that what goes on here about 60% or more of the time? People come on, ask questions to problems or instances that they're unfamiliar with, and other people who have experience and/or know the applicable formulas to accurately estimate data chime in with numbers and advice to help fill in the blanks. The builder in this case never says he will achieve 200mi of range - simply states that he's getting closer to that goal. How is this making anything up, or a lack of data?

I'm going to leave it at that and anything further will only receive a response of "agree to disagree" from me, because I really don't understand why you're so unwilling to accept this as a plausible project. It just pains me to see folks shooting down good ideas while tacking on useless bits of hardly-relevant information to make it seem as though they know enough to reject something innovative, all because they themselves are seemingly bathed in denial and ignorance. Any more bickering between the two of us is just going to clutter up an otherwise good thread.


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

Hi Elliot
A 10 kwh lead acid pack will take a SMALL car about 10 miles!

10 Kwh - peukert reduces that to 5 kwh - 70% = 3.5 kwh - 350 watthours/mile = 10 miles

And any form of camper van will NOT get 350 watt hours / mile 

There are all sorts of claims of huge numbers - but they are all bollocks


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## Elliot (Jul 6, 2018)

Duncan said:


> Hi Elliot
> A 10 kwh lead acid pack will take a SMALL car about 10 miles!
> 
> 10 Kwh - peukert reduces that to 5 kwh - 70% = 3.5 kwh - 350 watthours/mile = 10 miles
> ...


If you check out the first link, it gives info on the battery pack...
"the ‘solar electric volkswagen camper van‘ features twelve trojan ‘T-1275’ lead-acid batteries provide 150 AH at a 20-hour rate. series connections boost it to a 144 volt nominal voltage."
144*150 = 21,600
I (and he) already adjusted to take in to account the fact that it's lead acid, and will deliver somewhere around half of the total capacity.
Also, old VWs are extremely light weight, not to mention smaller than they look.


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## Elliot (Jul 6, 2018)

For the haters: 266 mile Trip on DIY EV TESLA BUS 18650 Batteries VW eSamba Ep 42 BBB

This video is from 2015. I'm sure some of you are familiar with Jehu Garcia... I can see now what he's talking about in part of this video, with the negative feedback he gets. He has 48kWh of storage energy. He runs an AC51 induction motor.

I know my post count here is low, but that doesn't mean that I haven't done my research. I'm not a total n00b and I happen to be a fairly sharp person. Due to humility, that's probably the extent of defending myself that I'll do.


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

Elliot
the problem that we have is that people ALWAYS over claim their Lead Acid conversions

The article said - 15-20 miles at city speed - which means 7-10 miles at highway speed 

And that is discharging to 90% - if you discharge to 90% you will get about TEN cycles out of your battery

As a general rule if somebody says that he can get an unrealistic mileage then they are kidding themselves 

I have a much smaller and lighter car with 14 kwh of Lithium and a range of about 40km


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## Elliot (Jul 6, 2018)

What car is your conversion on?


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

Elliot said:


> What car is your conversion on?


It's not

https://www.diyelectriccar.com/foru...dubious-device-44370p15.html?highlight=duncan

It's a scratchbuilt


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

Elliot said:


> The builder's own site - you mean Apparent Energy? That is the company he co-founded which works with solar energy, not an EV site at all.


No, the builders site is what I linked above - it is specifically about this EV:


brian_ said:


> ... The "tech specs" page of his website...





Elliot said:


> If most of the online articles are rehashes, I wonder why they all have different photos?


Do they? The only photo credit that I recall was to the builder. I'm sure he has lots of photos of his van.



Elliot said:


> I'm wondering if you see the bit of info that you seem to have allowed to fall between the cracks - it doesn't matter if he has driven the Phase 2 outcome or not, as the part that you quoted specifically shows that he drove it beforehand... which is a counterexample to your claim that this is "most likely a fraud" and "technically improbable" (also please keep in mind that improbable for one, does not mean improbable for another)
> 
> The article in Mother Earth News is just a build update and it's from 2017. If he drove it before with the lead-acid batteries, and he obviously has everything in place to drive it with the lithium pack, what evidence is there to suggest that he's not driving it now?


He drove the Phase 1 version, but collected no objective data, so the consumption and range information is of no value. The Phase 2 performance in the Mother Earth News update is extrapolated from this non-information, so it has even less value. Although I can believe that he later drove it, the builder's site does not provide data based on later actual operation; I did not suggest that he is not driving it now.



Elliot said:


> As far as the "making up numbers" with "no real data" - isn't that what goes on here about 60% or more of the time? People come on, ask questions to problems or instances that they're unfamiliar with, and other people who have experience and/or know the applicable formulas to accurately estimate data chime in with numbers and advice to help fill in the blanks. The builder in this case never says he will achieve 200mi of range - simply states that he's getting closer to that goal. How is this making anything up, or a lack of data?


This is inherently different from a DIY builder here saying "I hope to reach range X"; it is someone who is selling video views and asking for money while claiming things as true and proven which are not. My problem with it is that it promotes unreasonable expectations and thus inevitable disappointment a loss of credibility for the EV community.

Certainly extrapolating this guy's experience - even if you accept as true his statements that he can solar charge in a day enough to drive the distance he claims - to a substantially larger vehicle without a correspondingly larger solar array (because larger in area in proportion to weight won't fit) is not valid.

If there is some objective data regarding this project, I would appreciate seeing it. Providing that would be a positive contribution to the discussion.


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

Elliot said:


> For the haters: 266 mile Trip on DIY EV TESLA BUS 18650 Batteries VW eSamba Ep 42 BBB


From the curious (not hater): I'm not going to listen to anyone chatter for 20 minutes to get maybe some data. The whole trip is 266 miles; are you saying that he does this on a single 48 kWh charge?


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

Elliot said:


> If you check out the first link, it gives info on the battery pack...
> "the ‘solar electric volkswagen camper van‘ features twelve trojan ‘T-1275’ lead-acid batteries provide 150 AH at a 20-hour rate. series connections boost it to a 144 volt nominal voltage."
> 144*150 = 21,600
> I (and he) already adjusted to take in to account the fact that it's lead acid, and will deliver somewhere around half of the total capacity.


Okay, but Trojan says that while the capacity of a T-1275 at the 20-hour rate is 150 amp-hour, they also say that at 56 amps it lasts 102 minutes, which is 47 amp-hours. In contrast, Brett Belan (the builder) says


> Since I load the batteries at a minimum of 50 amps or C/3 and up to sometimes 2C I have seen about 80 amp hours out of each battery for an approximate 80% DOD.


He's saying that at over 50 amps load he is seeing 100 amp-hours of capacity (80% of that is the 80 amp-hours he reports), so either he has miracle batteries or he is not accurately measuring his performance.

Try less than one-third of 20-hour capacity, not half... for a start.

Summary of Trojan's data for the T-1275:
100-Hr Rate: 166 Ah (@1.66 A)
20-Hr Rate: 150 Ah (@7.5 A)
10-Hr Rate: 134 Ah (@13.4 A)
5-Hr Rate: 120 Ah (@24 A)
@25 Amps 280 minutes => 58 Ah (over 2.33 h)
@56 Amps 102 minutes => 47.6 Ah (over 0.85 h)
@75 Amps 70 minutes => 43.8 Ah (over 0.63 h)​
This sort of disconnect between physical reality and the builder's claims is the reason for my concern with believing anything he says. But hey, get enough bloggers to say positive things and the universe will make it all work, right?


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## Meni Menindorf (Mar 17, 2018)

brian_ said:


> From the curious (not hater): are you saying that he does this on a single 48 kWh charge?



I watched that video a while ago, and I'm pretty sure he charges several times? I don't remember the exact number~ In the beginning of the video he's hauled up next to some camp ground 220V that he's hoisting electricity from before the sun rises


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

Meni Menindorf said:


> I watched that video a while ago, and I'm pretty sure he charges several times? I don't remember the exact number~ In the beginning of the video he's hauled up next to some camp ground 220V that he's hoisting electricity from before the sun rises


Thanks 

If there is a readable copy of useful range information data somewhere, I would be interested in a link. While the VW bus is much smaller than the Sprinter and similar projects, it would be still be an interesting comparison point.

I was visiting with a friend of mine that has a couple of split-window buses. We were talking about the difference in size between them and my motorhome (because we had been talking about fuel consumption on my recent trip); the VWs are about 64" wide. A high-roof Sprinter (80"?) would be sort of midway between these little buses and my big rolling house (102")... and the height relationship is similar.


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## massawe (Jul 27, 2018)

I've seen this VW bus article before, it's one of the few articles that actually shows someone road tripping on an EV van.

It doesn't seem impossible to me that he could get 15 miles off a full days sun, if he is in a sunny place in the middle of the summer. If you assume an equivalent 8 hours of STC power from the panels (maybe eastern oregon on June 21st?) thats 10.5kWh. If he can manage to get a mile on 500 Wh he could pull it off.

To me thats a pretty rough road trip though, going 15-20 miles a day, and constantly waiting for the sun to charge you. I love solar, have it on my roof, and even have extra panels lying around, but I just don't think it makes a ton of sense on an EV. I would probably put a single 300W panel on the roof for utilities, and perhaps a worst case charging situation if I break down a mile from the outlet...



> so the range of a 24 kWh Leaf might be comparable to a 66 kWh Sprinter. Yes, that's really rough!


Thanks Brian, this would put me at 84 miles/24kWh * 60kWh / 2.5 scaling factor = 84 miles (exactly the same as the leaf... haha).



> My LeafSharo will hopefully not weigh much more than 6,000 lbs after the conversion, (maybe wishful thinking after adding ~1,500 lbs of li-ion?). So here's my generous-rough math: LeSharo roughly twice as heavy as Leaf ~ with 24kWh it would go about 50 mi ~ so with MORE than 3 times as much capacity, it would hopefully go at least 120 mi


Thanks Meni. It looks like the Sprinter is a similar weight to the Le Sharo. Obviously things change when you start ripping out the engine and adding batteries. Still, it seems like your equation is a good starting point. So using your equation I could potentially get (50mi/24kWh * 60kWh) = 125 miles, or maybe more like 100 miles after subtracting the extra battery weight.

So these are both similar number, and fall a little short of what I had hoped. I'm hoping to get a little over 100 miles range. I could try and bump up the battery pack, although I won't be able to get more of these batteries since they aren't sold publicly.

The PP135 is part of a package deal I am getting from my friend. It's kind of too good to be true, so I'll tell you how much it was when/if I actually get it.

I've noticed in my Volt that the range in the summer is around 45 miles, and in the winter it's more like 30 miles. Even without using the heater it's a huge reduction. Is there any advantage to heating the battery pack? A solar thermal collector is far more efficient than a PV collector so maybe you could circulate heated fluid around the batteries, and then just try and drive in the middle of the day once it's had a chance to warm up? Or just limit my road trip to the summers, hunker down in the winter.


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

massawe said:


> To me thats a pretty rough road trip though, going 15-20 miles a day, and constantly waiting for the sun to charge you.


... while moving the van repeatedly to orient the panel toward the sun!



massawe said:


> I love solar, have it on my roof, and even have extra panels lying around, but I just don't think it makes a ton of sense on an EV.


I don't think it makes sense as the sole source of energy for "house" loads as well as propulsion, but it is very useful as a contribution to the total... which is why it is very popular on all types of RV.



massawe said:


> I've noticed in my Volt that the range in the summer is around 45 miles, and in the winter it's more like 30 miles. Even without using the heater it's a huge reduction.


While I don't doubt that battery temperature is a significant factor, there are also automotive factors such as higher rolling resistance of cold tires and higher drag in other components. Even with modern engine management avoiding excessively rich fuel mixture in cold weather, engine-driven cars still get worse mileage in winter.



massawe said:


> Or just limit my road trip to the summers, hunker down in the winter.


You may want to do that regardless of the range issue, due to the lack of sunlight for charging and the massively greater consumption of energy in the RV due to the need for space heating. I've heard of lots of people who meet most or all of their energy needs while camped with solar panels, but none that do it in winter conditions (meaning short days and cold temperatures leading to a requirement for space heating).


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## Meni Menindorf (Mar 17, 2018)

brian_ said:


> ... while moving the van repeatedly to orient the panel toward the sun!


I feel compelled to chime in here, since I have been excited about the possibility of having solar panels on my LeafSharo roof in a big way. I have been planning a roof rack system made from aluminum pipe that would allow me to unlock any of the four sides of the roof mounted solar panels. They would then be propped up with a simple manual pole system would would easily allow me to tilt the panels any way I needed to. I have also been thinking about adding a solar awning that would rest on the side of the RV while moving, but would prop up into an awning when camping. 

While I recognize that it might not be everybody's groove to drive for 2 hours and then wait 5 days to drive again. . . that actually sounds pretty rad to me! And I think these numbers aren't crazy for 60kWh battery, and 1200-1800 watts of solar fit on my LeSharo. Another big factor for me is having a less than 250 mi range, I think, makes it substantially challenging to cross country travel. There are a lot of awesome places where charging stations are few and far between. Having at least _something_ that would get one from station to station in the deeper nature of the country would be really . . . necessary? And would help eliviate the fear that I would get stuck somewhere without even a 120V to plug into~



brian_ said:


> I don't think it makes sense as the sole source of energy for "house" loads as well as propulsion, but it is very useful as a contribution to the total... which is why it is very popular on all types of RV.


I'm curious why you think this about "house" loads? Because of the larger battery banks required to run a home? (Which I think is largely solved once NiFe batteries take a more mainstream lead in off-grid home solar.) I also think it really instills a healthy mind-set to be self-sufficient in our homes, aware of the energy we are using, of the need to conserve, and . . . all my green prattle. 


brian_ said:


> While I don't doubt that battery temperature is a significant factor, there are also automotive factors such as higher rolling resistance of cold tires and higher drag in other components. Even with modern engine management avoiding excessively rich fuel mixture in cold weather, engine-driven cars still get worse mileage in winter.


Very interesting! I was not aware that this was quite as big a factor as it is sounding here. I've heard really good things from EV owners here in Northern MN. 


brian_ said:


> You may want to do that regardless of the range issue, due to the lack of sunlight for charging and the massively greater consumption of energy in the RV due to the need for space heating. I've heard of lots of people who meet most or all of their energy needs while camped with solar panels, but none that do it in winter conditions (meaning short days and cold temperatures leading to a requirement for space heating).


Except. . . isn't deep Winter when many of us want to flee like snow-birds!?  We've been planning on installing a wood burning fire-box in the RV to supply heat on cold nights.


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

Meni Menindorf said:


> I'm curious why you think this about "house" loads? Because of the larger battery banks required to run a home?
> ...


Sorry for the confusion resulting from terminology. When I referred to "house" loads, I was *not* talking about energy used in a house. In a RV (or boat), the parts of the energy system related to living are the "house" portion, in contrast to those related to the vehicle (which are vehicular or "chassis"). For instance, in a typical engine-driven motorhome (or boat with living quarters) there is usually 

a chassis battery (or set of batteries, mine just has a single common Group 24 12V battery) to start the engine and run the ignition and headlights and so on, plus
a separate house battery (or set of batteries - mine has two 6V GC2 batteries in series) to run the lighting, ventilation, water pump, furnace, refrigerator (at least the controls), water heater controls, and so on.

You can sometimes substitute "coach" for "house", depending on the context; in that case the part added to the chassis by the RV manufacturer is called the coach.

House loads (in the RV sense) continue every day, unlike the energy demand of propulsion which you can pause while you sit in one place - that's the difference to which I was referring.


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

Meni Menindorf said:


> I feel compelled to chime in here, since I have been excited about the possibility of having solar panels on my LeafSharo roof in a big way. I have been planning a roof rack system made from aluminum pipe that would allow me to unlock any of the four sides of the roof mounted solar panels. They would then be propped up with a simple manual pole system would would easily allow me to tilt the panels any way I needed to.


That sounds good. Tilting improves output, and it would be good to be able to orient panels independently of the vehicle orientation.

On the other hand, I think I can understand why the so-much-discussed VW van has a single panel which is simply hinged: it can used as a folding raised roof, and it avoids the problem of one tilted panel shading another tilted panel.

The best I have been able to think of for a tilting design is a roughly octagonal panel on a rotating base, the width of the RV body, hinged on one edge and positioned on the RV to minimize shading. It's a bit complex, but easy to use and usable as a simple single-axis (azimuth only) tracking system. This only works for one panel, since with two big panels one would shade the other.



Meni Menindorf said:


> I have also been thinking about adding a solar awning that would rest on the side of the RV while moving, but would prop up into an awning when camping.


I like that, because it adds panel area beyond the roof area. A challenge - or opportunity - is that the best angle for the awning deployed for solar collection may shade the RV's windows.


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

About winter range...


Meni Menindorf said:


> I was not aware that this was quite as big a factor as it is sounding here. I've heard really good things from EV owners here in Northern MN.


Experiences vary, but anyone running an EV in this sort of climate should have a battery heating system, even if it is optional for other regions.


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

Meni Menindorf said:


> ... isn't deep Winter when many of us want to flee like snow-birds!?


Yes, but fleeing to a warm area means essentially not experiencing winter. The problem is winter weather, not the month shown on the calendar.



Meni Menindorf said:


> We've been planning on installing a wood burning fire-box in the RV to supply heat on cold nights.


That's been done, but it has lots of problems. Wood-burners take a lot of space, and small fireboxes only work properly with small fuel, such as pellets. Small fuel means impractically frequent refueling, or an automated system (again, such as a pellet stove with feeder). Would you heat water with wood as well? There's still the problem of reduced solar input, even if you avoid increased electrical load.


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## massawe (Jul 27, 2018)

> While I recognize that it might not be everybody's groove to drive for 2 hours and then wait 5 days to drive again. . . that actually sounds pretty rad to me! And I think these numbers aren't crazy for 60kWh battery, and 1200-1800 watts of solar fit on my LeSharo.


I have thought about this a lot too. Certainly if you plan your trip correctly it is possible, but I think you would have to really take it slow, and be super flexible as a week of shade could turn your 5-day stay into a 13 day stay.

The other option, charging frequently at stations and just using the solar on the occasional long stopover, could make your road trip a lot more flexible, but I think it would be worth looking at how many times you will actually do the 5-day stay. It's a lot of weight, money and bulk if you only use it occasionally.

Anyway like you said, it all comes down to what kind of trip you have in mind. I have a friend that did an all-solar-powered road trip decades ago. He would just manually lay all the panels out on the ground each day, then pack them up and drive on. It was a real slow trip, but made him a lot of great memories and I'm sure he has no regrets!

Side note: I wonder if you could use some kind of parabolic mylar to boost your insolation on your panels. This could then roll up real small and lightweight...?


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

massawe said:


> Side note: I wonder if you could use some kind of parabolic mylar to boost your insolation on your panels. This could then roll up real small and lightweight...?


Yes, and no: concentrated collection systems exist, but the details go way beyond the scope of a DIY EV discussion.

A brief and rough summary:

focussing reflectors (or even lenses) work well with direct sunlight, but not with diffuse light
concentrating means increasing cell temperature - using that concentrated heat is complex, and not doing anything about it is a problem for the cells
concentrating solar exposure is more practical for thermal systems (heat collectors, especially high-temperature collection to run a heat engine for power generation) than for photovoltaic systems


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