# Is it better ripping up a donor EV or dropping $$$ on a new motor?



## midnight1277 (May 28, 2020)

I'm building an electric '47 Chevy; I expect the curb weight to be around 3500 lbs.

I've been told that the AC-51 would get it moving based on math. But I'm horrible at math and depending on a guy trying to sell me a motor. Should I listen to him? But I think he's just happy if it gets up to 60 mph.
Honestly, I drive 60 in the slow lane. So I need something that goes 90 (I live in a lawless town folks). Should I get a second job and buy a the AC34x2 motor for $9K?

Is anyone ripping up used Chevy Volts? I'd love to buy one for all my parts. Would that move my car? 

So many questions.


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## piotrsko (Dec 9, 2007)

People are parting out anything that has electric in it: volts, pria, tesla, chrysler, VW, etc. Stuff is priced accordingly, but there are sometimes good deals to be had if your lucky. Back when I used to come here daily, the AC motors were in vogue, but they might only make 60 mph, so do a bit of research here in the motor section. Or be patient, one of the forum experts will be along soon....


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## midnight1277 (May 28, 2020)

piotrsko said:


> People are parting out anything that has electric in it: volts, pria, tesla, chrysler, VW, etc. Stuff is priced accordingly, but there are sometimes good deals to be had if your lucky. Back when I used to come here daily, the AC motors were in vogue, but they might only make 60 mph, so do a bit of research here in the motor section. Or be patient, one of the forum experts will be along soon....


Thanks for replying! This is my first conversion and I don't see a lot of people converting a heavy classic like this one. ICON's 49 Mercury seems like the closest, but that's using 2 Tesla motors.


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## MattsAwesomeStuff (Aug 10, 2017)

I would not buy a new AC motor. There is no value there.

There are tens of thousands of EV motors available in junkyards for $100-200. The inverters for them are probably that much again. Then control boards to control them are that much again.

You should easily be able to get a motor, inverter, and controller for the inverter for under $1000 total.

For your needs, a 2nd or 3rd generation Prius transaxle would be sufficient. Lots of guys paying $150 for the whole motor and subframe. $150 for the inverter. Then, depending on which, head over to OpenInverter.org or EVBMW.com and buy a control board. Both Johannes and Damien are friends and collaborate on each other's products (Johannes does mostly software). Johannes' Prius Gen 2 kit is all but plug-and-play. Damien's Prius Gen 3 kit is a control board swap, few screws and you're ready to go. They also created a tuning procedure for any motor, so, you don't have to pair your motor to an inverter, you can use anything you want.

To get the transaxle to work, I think on the Gen 2 you have to weld the planetary gears, and the Gen 3 you can lock the input shaft, but don't hold me to that.

There are other options too. Lexus GS450H if you want something transmission-like for RWD. Nissan Leaf motors, Teslas, etc. But, a Prius gen 3 dual-motor controller I think is what you'll want to do.


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## midnight1277 (May 28, 2020)

MattsAwesomeStuff said:


> I would not buy a new AC motor. There is no value there.
> 
> There are tens of thousands of EV motors available in junkyards for $100-200. The inverters for them are probably that much again. Then control boards to control them are that much again.
> 
> ...


Thanks for your reply-it's generous! I've seen eBay posts for Tesla rear drive units and didn't consider Prius or Lexus. I'll check them out!


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## Tremelune (Dec 8, 2009)

I remain a fan of the Nissan Leaf. You can get running, driving cars for $6-8k pretty easily, the batteries are big but easy to reconfigure, and if you kept the truck's gearbox, you could smoke the tires at low speeds and your top speed would likely be limited by fortitude or transmission's ability to spin at 10k RPM without coming apart.

The Leaf motor has a nice feature where the gearbox simply unbolts from the motor to reveal a face that's reasonably easy to mate with existing manual transmissions.

You can squeeze a highway-capable conversion for $10k all-told, but $15k is a more likely estimate.


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## midnight1277 (May 28, 2020)

Tremelune said:


> I remain a fan of the Nissan Leaf. You can get running, driving cars for $6-8k pretty easily, the batteries are big but easy to reconfigure, and if you kept the truck's gearbox, you could smoke the tires at low speeds and your top speed would likely be limited by fortitude or transmission's ability to spin at 10k RPM without coming apart.
> 
> The Leaf motor has a nice feature where the gearbox simply unbolts from the motor to reveal a face that's reasonably easy to mate with existing manual transmissions.
> 
> You can squeeze a highway-capable conversion for $10k all-told, but $15k is a more likely estimate.


Thanks for this. I saw this on Thunderstruck (AC/Large Motors Kits), which got me thinking about how powerful the Leaf motor is. But the '47 also have a straight-6 back in day, so the motor should work:


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## Tremelune (Dec 8, 2009)

If you're gonna spend $3k, why not spend $6-8k and get a running car that you can test (and use) the batteries with? Also comes with contactors, throttle pedal, HVAC, wiring, and people are still working on ways to utilize the charger, BMS, DC/DC converter...You do have to go find a car, take it apart, and then get rid of the chassis and what not...

The most expensive part to buy is the batteries. The leaf batteries degraded quickly until mid-2013. They got even better in 2015. They are the cheapest OEM batteries you can get, but they're larger and slightly heavier per kWh than Model S or Bolt batteries.

Lotta ways to skin this cat at the moment...Too many, I'd say...


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## midnight1277 (May 28, 2020)

Tremelune said:


> If you're gonna spend $3k, why not spend $6-8k and get a running car that you can test (and use) the batteries with? Also comes with contactors, throttle pedal, HVAC, wiring, and people are still working on ways to utilize the charger, BMS, DC/DC converter...You do have to go find a car, take it apart, and then get rid of the chassis and what not...
> 
> The most expensive part to buy is the batteries. The leaf batteries degraded quickly until mid-2013. They got even better in 2015. They are the cheapest OEM batteries you can get, but they're larger and slightly heavier per kWh than Model S or Bolt batteries.
> 
> Lotta ways to skin this cat at the moment...Too many, I'd say...


Awesome reply. I started looking at the Nissan Leaf motor and batteries. I love the idea of buying a running car, but I just finished tearing apart an S10 pickup for my chassis, so tearing apart an EV and then scrapping it would be (insert complaint here).

Thunderstruck has a motor/inverter package for $3000 but I found the same thing on eBay-$500 with a Thunderstuck VCU for $825 = $1325

A full 2015 Leaf battery pack would set me back $4500 for 100 mile range.

Would I need a manual transmission? I've been told on this forum that a manual NV3500 transmission would be great, but could I connect the driveshaft to the Nissan motor? What if I connect the motor directly to the differential? Will the wheels spin too fast?


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

midnight1277 said:


> Would I need a manual transmission? I've been told on this forum that a manual NV3500 transmission would be great, but could I connect the driveshaft to the Nissan motor? What if I connect the motor directly to the differential? Will the wheels spin too fast?


In a Leaf, the ratio of motor speed to wheel speed is about 8:1. That's tall enough that the motor is within its allowed speed range when the car is going 90 MPH, but has enough reduction to provide sufficient torque at low speed. If you connect the Leaf motor directly to the input of your rear axle, you will have the axle ratio as your speed ratio, which is too tall for decent performance (but could go stupidly fast if only 80 kW was enough power). You can settle for the lower acceleration, or add a fixed-ratio gearbox, or change the rear axle ratio to the shortest (highest number) that you can find, or use a conventional manual transmission (and maybe never even shift it out of 2nd or 3rd gear)... all of those approaches have been used in some conversion.

I'm not sure why you would want to specifically use the transmission from a Nissan NV3500; it's big and heavy for an 80 kW motor, it wouldn't bolt directly to the Leaf motor without a housing adapter and a shaft coupler, and it isn't set up specifically to fit in a '47 Chevy. If you're using a conventional transmission, why not use whatever fits the Chevy? The could be the original 3-speed, or whatever more modern replacement is commonly used (but you don't need overdrive ratios or more than 3 speeds).


Just curious - is this a '47 Chevy car (which would presumably be a Stylemaster or Fleetmaster), or a '47 Chevy pickup (the Advance Design generation)?


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## midnight1277 (May 28, 2020)

brian_ said:


> In a Leaf, the ratio of motor speed to wheel speed is about 8:1. That's tall enough that the motor is within its allowed speed range when the car is going 90 MPH, but has enough reduction to provide sufficient torque at low speed. If you connect the Leaf motor directly to the input of your rear axle, you will have the axle ratio as your speed ratio, which is too tall for decent performance (but could go stupidly fast if only 80 kW was enough power). You can settle for the lower acceleration, or add a fixed-ratio gearbox, or change the rear axle ratio to the shortest (highest number) that you can find, or use a conventional manual transmission (and maybe never even shift it out of 2nd or 3rd gear)... all of those approaches have been used in some conversion.
> 
> I'm not sure why you would want to specifically use the transmission from a Nissan NV3500; it's big and heavy for an 80 kW motor, it wouldn't bolt directly to the Leaf motor without a housing adapter and a shaft coupler, and it isn't set up specifically to fit in a '47 Chevy. If you're using a conventional transmission, why not use whatever fits the Chevy? The could be the original 3-speed, or whatever more modern replacement is commonly used (but you don't need overdrive ratios or more than 3 speeds).
> 
> ...


Hi Brian, the chassis is a 1998 Chevy S10 pickup, with a Code504 kit to accept the body of a '47 Chevy Fleetmaster Coupe. The S10 originally had an automatic trans, and the manual trans would be the Chevy NV3500. I like the idea of the manual trans, but that think I could shed the weight. Instead of using a trans what about a gear reducer like this?


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

midnight1277 said:


> Hi Brian, the chassis is a 1998 Chevy S10 pickup, with a Code504 kit to accept the body of a '47 Chevy Fleetmaster Coupe. The S10 originally had an automatic trans, and the manual trans would be the Chevy NV3500. I like the idea of the manual trans, but that think I could shed the weight. Instead of using a trans what about a gear reducer like this?


Ah... sorry for the confusion - "NV3500" is also the name of a Nissan van. Of course you meant a New Venture Gear 3500, which would work fine. Even an NV1500 might be adequate, but a stock Leaf motor would likely be right at the NV1500's input torque limit.

So this isn't really a '47 Chevy conversion at all - it's an S-10 conversion (to electric) and a rebody (with a '47 Chevy coupe body). Yes, then the usual manual transmission for an S-10 makes sense.

The belt drive from Thunderstruck can't handle the torque or power that this project needs. There was actually a belt drive used in the Solectria conversion of the S-10, but that used two motors with a belt for each one, and much less power per motor than the Leaf motor would provide.

There is a reduction gearbox from Torque Trends called the ev-TorqueBox which is intended specifically for this purpose (connecting an electric motor to the propeller shaft of a pickup truck), but it's not set up to accept the Leaf transmission (so you would need adapters) and it could be considered expensive. The motor might even fit in the transmission tunnel, complete with the gearbox, in this type of installation.


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## Tremelune (Dec 8, 2009)

There will be some adaptation requiring precise machining or fabrication either way. The 8:1 gearbox on the leaf motor bolts off to reveal a flat face with an output shaft. This is what you would mate to the NV3500, but no off-the-shelf adapter exists.

The 2:1 TorqueBox would work well to connect the motor directly to the rear differential, but you would need to make sure the motor was positioned/angled properly to avoid driveshaft wear (equal angles on both ends).

I expect the transmission adapter would be $1-2k, TorqueBox is $3k, custom driveshaft is probably $1k.


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## midnight1277 (May 28, 2020)

Based on the great guidance from this thread, I picked up a 2014 Nissan Leaf motor with 24K miles from a local recycler last night!


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## wjbitner (Apr 5, 2010)

midnight1277 said:


> Based on the great guidance from this thread, I picked up a 2014 Nissan Leaf motor with 24K miles from a local recycler last night!
> 
> 
> View attachment 120849


I can help with an adapter for the Leaf motor. I went through this same exercise myself to adapt to a Mazda Miata transmission. The tricky part was getting the part that
will mate with the leaf end. The rest is some machining on a lathe and some welding. Should cost under 1K (depending on local machinists rates).


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## Tremelune (Dec 8, 2009)

Is it common for a machinist to take a motor and transmission and build a high-precision adapters for them that won't vibrate at 10k RPM? Is this easier than I think it is? How do I vet a machinist for this kind of work?


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## scottherrington (Jul 3, 2020)

There are very clever people who can literally take a photo of the items you have and make plates to fit, it is specialised so probably costs 

Sent from my moto g(8) power lite using Tapatalk


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## wjbitner (Apr 5, 2010)

Tremelune said:


> Is it common for a machinist to take a motor and transmission and build a high-precision adapters for them that won't vibrate at 10k RPM? Is this easier than I think it is? How do I vet a machinist for this kind of work?


Since we did it ourselves, "I don't know" is the only real answer I can give. We aren't really machinists or welders by trade, so the pro's could do better work than us. I'm guessing it isn't all that hard. Making the leaf end coupler, that was hard for a non-prof machinist.. lol


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## remy_martian (Feb 4, 2019)

MattsAwesomeStuff said:


> There are tens of thousands of EV motors available in junkyards for $100-200.


Address and phone number of that salvage yard. 10x your number is cheap, lol


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## remy_martian (Feb 4, 2019)

Tremelune said:


> There will be some adaptation requiring precise machining or fabrication either way. The 8:1 gearbox on the leaf motor bolts off to reveal a flat face with an output shaft.


How many teeth on that spline and can you mike the O.D. of the spline & of the non-splined shaft sections? 

An end-on closeup photo of the shaft might be useful to some...you actually can make drawings from photos 🤓


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## MattsAwesomeStuff (Aug 10, 2017)

remy_martian said:


> Address and phone number of that salvage yard. 10x your number is cheap, lol


You can buy a whole prius in running condition for 10x that price.

I paid $157 (CAD, so, ~$115 USD) for my Prius Gen 2 inverter, and I half think I got ripped off but I was in a hurry and went with the first place I called.

My motor was free from another place, but it's a forklift AC motor.

I take note of as many EV projects as I can, and in the last year just about everyone is grabbing a motor/transaxle for $100-200. Whole sub-assemblies for $200-300. That's for Prius Gen 2 or 3. In Australia I think it's hybrid Camry's that are so prevalent in the Taxi industry that junkyard parts are practically free. $50 for a motor or inverter. Damien does just as well in Europe, buying a driveable Lexus hybrid for like 500 euros. I haven't heard anyone paying anything close to $1000 in a couple years, and nothing without a Tesla label anywhere near $2000.

Even if you're extra lazy, Ebay, transaxle/motors for $75 right now, first result. It's not a hard search.

My particular area is oil town and rather devoid of hybrid vehicles, and even I grabbed parts around here. I think I paid $25 for a Gen 1 Prius inverter just because... why not. And could easily have taken the engine for pennies if I had any use for it.


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## remy_martian (Feb 4, 2019)

You said "EV" motors and all you're posting are motors from hybrids and forklifts...awkward $hit nobody wants. 

And that Lexus transmission is $1700....


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## MattsAwesomeStuff (Aug 10, 2017)

remy_martian said:


> You said "EV" motors and all you're posting are motors from hybrids and forklifts...awkward $hit nobody wants.


Shit no one wants, that's why the forklift thread had thousands of posts, right? (And, I mentioned that only to say that I'm not personally using a hybrid motor).

Do you own an EV shop or something, that you're so elitist and biased towards one particular type of inventory? It seems like you try to make everything sound impossible and out of reach, overly complicated, have to hire a professional to do it for you, have to spend lots on new parts. 

You want to split hairs and not call a hybrid motor disconnected from its engine an "EV motor", despite it being OEM and perfectly capable of zippy acceleration up to highway speeds? Okay, but, more people are doing that than buying AC-51s and other low-market overpriced crap.

The Prius Gen 3 inverter can knock out 700 horsepower. For whom is that insufficient?

I'll contend that hybrid parts are _the_ future for DIY EVs, aside from track-oriented performance builds.



> And that Lexus transmission is $1700....


Yeah, or.. half that, last guy I think paid $600, but okay.


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## remy_martian (Feb 4, 2019)

None of the motors you mentioned were from an EV.

Now you are deflecting from the fact that you mislead me and everyone else from now until The End of Days thinking you had a line on a 200 buck EV motor. You clearly do not.

You can get a forklift motor for $200. OK.

You can get a motor from a hybrid
for $200. OK. You can get a transmission from a Lexus for $600, Ok. But the larger one that Damien used is not $600 08-16 LEXUS LS600HL LS600H HYBRID AUTOMATIC AWD TRANSMISSION OEM 50K MILES | eBay

You can get an EV motor for $200. NO WAY.
------


*** Hybrids are such a mess, their components won't be mainstream. All-EV is in such high volume from this point hybrid's motors won't be worth the bother to anyone but those converting hybrids to all-electric...in that case the trans is already in the car with its motor integrated.


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## scottherrington (Jul 3, 2020)

Such a shame, I was looking forward to a discussion about the pros and cons of using a donor vehicle or buying conversion specific parts but we seem to have ended up with a pi&&ing contest.

I don't know about what parts are like in the States but in the UK I found Nissan Leaf motors for £800 and upwards, that was excluding the inverter.
I found one of those for £500

People like Damien can get cheaper parts because of who they are, who they know and they have the knowledge to make anything work with anything.

In my opinion the cheapest way is to buy a salvage EV and use those parts however you will need to spend more time getting them to work outside of the original vehicle.

For an easier build you could buy a kit put together by a company but this will be more expensive.

Or you can use a donor vehicle with custom brains ie Thunderstruck.

Personally I wouldn't use a DC motor as I want direct drive but that doesn't mean it's not viable. 
If you know where to get parts cheap then go for it and let us know how it goes.
If you buy a kit then go for it and let us know how it goes.

Rant over

Keep smiling and remember, we're on this forum to learn and help 









Sent from my moto g(8) power lite using Tapatalk


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## remy_martian (Feb 4, 2019)

The problem with a donor vehicle is you're re-integrating that vehicle's component choices vs making your own. 

Shopping each piece means being aware of what's out there, what fits, and takes a risk on availability. 

I don't think there's a "correct" answer to the question. It depends on the integrator, budget, space constraints in having a carcass being picked apart, etc


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## MattsAwesomeStuff (Aug 10, 2017)

remy_martian said:


> Now you are deflecting from the fact that you mislead me and everyone else from now until The End of Days thinking you had a line on a 200 buck EV motor. You clearly do not.


Hybrid motor powerful enough to move a car highway speeds with good acceleration, built with reputable high-volume OEM vehicle standards = EV motor in my books.

Certainly more so than an AC-51 or some other "EV" product that's tiny market, low-effort engineering, untested, and high priced.

As I said, if you want to spit at "hybrid" as not the same as EV, okay, but, you're going to get eyeroling from the rest of us for the pointless differentiation.



> *** Hybrids are such a mess, their components won't be mainstream.


Mainstream as in like... manufacturing? Because there's more hybrids on the road than EVs probably by an order of magnitude.

Mainstream as in, the already-infinitesimal DIY EV scene?

I'm sorry, I don't understand your criticism. You're expecting some kind of "mainstream" movement for DIY EVs and somehow you think hybrids will be excluded from this?

I've seen more hybrid parts used in the last year than "EV" parts by your definition.



> All-EV is in such high volume from this point hybrid's motors won't be worth the bother to anyone but those converting hybrids to all-electric...in that case the trans is already in the car with its motor integrated.


Amazing that you're making these declarations while ignoring that the opposite is currently already happening.

There's a phrase about "those who say it can't be done should get out of the way of those already doing it".

There are lots of people in the community using hybrid motors and inverters for pure-EVs, and I don't know of any that are intending to just strip the motor out of a hybrid and keep driving it. Maybe a proof-of-concept but that's it.

... again, what's your bias here? You sell EV conversion services or something? Have vested interest in selling the story that EVs are too expensive and complicated for a DIYer and they need to pay someone to do it for them?


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## MattsAwesomeStuff (Aug 10, 2017)

scottherrington said:


> People like Damien can get cheaper parts because of who they are, who they know and they have the knowledge to make anything work with anything.


Yes, if he was building stuff for himself, that's true. He's made all kinds of oddball junk work in various projects, he can sit down and reverse engineer whatever he wants and build a whole new inverter from scratch using parts he had lying around. His ability to nab batteries cheap is especially envious, but that was more in the past when junkyards saw them as a liability that no one wanted to purchase. That's not true today.

But he doesn't need to build EVs for him. He's got his vehicle, he's done. Everything else he's done he does to help others, on a volunteer and open source basis.

The reason he (and the DIY EV community at large) has pursued hybrid parts in the last couple years is because that's something everyone can have access to, without having to need specialized knowledge, ability to reverse-engineer, etc. His goal is to make it more accessible to people without his resources and knowledge.

He has more familiarity with junkyards, but lots of his projects are just him buying cars from ads, same as you or I could do.

No one has trouble finding hybrid parts for the same ballpark price he does, they're everywhere, that's the point.

If you look at what's required to hijack a Model 3 inverter for example, cutting traces and disabling chips and tapping into various points on the circuitboard... versus what's required for hybrid components (unscrew the controller board, screw in a cheap replacement, done), can't be easier and more accessible to those without specialized knowledge.


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## midnight1277 (May 28, 2020)

Hello all. I wanted to share a recent email exchange with Torque Trends, the company that makes the Ev-TorqueBox (referenced on page 1, ev-TorqueBox | Surprise, AZ | Torque Trends, Inc.).
Replacing the transmission with a gear reducer and shedding weight makes a lot of sense. Having the same company also make the coupler to the Nissan Leaf motor makes more sense.

See the email below-I'd need to provide a CAD file of the motor face (for an adapter plate) and of the spline for a coupler to be made; would those exist somewhere on the forum?


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

midnight1277 said:


> I wanted to share a recent email exchange with Torque Trends, the company that makes the Ev-TorqueBox (referenced on page 1, ev-TorqueBox | Surprise, AZ | Torque Trends, Inc.).
> Replacing the transmission with a gear reducer and shedding weight makes a lot of sense. Having the same company also make the coupler to the Nissan Leaf motor makes more sense.
> ...


I agree that it would be great to have company handle everything, and deliver a complete functional product. It would also set up future customers with a ready-to-go solution... if they can afford it.


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## Tremelune (Dec 8, 2009)

I feel like they'd sell a lot more TorqueBoxes and adapters if they were willing to invest $500 in an EM57 motor...It feels short-sighted to still be messing with HyPer9s and AC51s as 2020 closes out, but maybe I'm the only one that finds the Leaf motor to be better in every single way besides (arguably) packaging...

There are allegedly CAD files floating about, but it's hard to gauge their precision. I never found one I trusted enough to build from.

If I ever get around to converting my MGB, I would for sure use a TorqueBox and Leaf adapter until a better way to lose the rear diff is worked out (which seems unlikely)—so tell them I said +1. 😁


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## midnight1277 (May 28, 2020)

Tremelune said:


> I feel like they'd sell a lot more TorqueBoxes and adapters if they were willing to invest $500 in an EM57 motor...It feels short-sighted to still be messing with HyPer9s and AC51s as 2020 closes out, but maybe I'm the only one that finds the Leaf motor to be better in every single way besides (arguably) packaging...
> 
> There are allegedly CAD files floating about, but it's hard to gauge their precision. I never found one I trusted enough to build from.
> 
> If I ever get around to converting my MGB, I would for sure use a TorqueBox and Leaf adapter until a better way to lose the rear diff is worked out (which seems unlikely)—so tell them I said +1. 😁


What about using the Leaf's single-speed reducer normally attached to the motor? My motor didn't come with one, but they're on eBay ($250+). Could I attach it to my rear like the ev-TorqueBox?.


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## Tremelune (Dec 8, 2009)

Well. You'd have to put the engine in sideways and off-center...You'd also have to make sure the unused side doesn't spin, and you'd have to find a way to mate an axle CV-joint to a driveshaft U-joint.


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## midnight1277 (May 28, 2020)

Tremelune said:


> Well. You'd have to put the engine in sideways and off-center...You'd also have to make sure the unused side doesn't spin, and you'd have to find a way to mate an axle CV-joint to a driveshaft U-joint.


I saw this: Tesla Model S Large Drive Unit with Driveshaft Adapter; curious if there's a driveshaft adapter for the Leaf motor.


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