# Gas Tax: Win, Win, Win, Win, Win!



## EVDL Archive (Jul 26, 2007)

It makes no sense for Congress to bail out Detroit -- and demand that the auto companies use this cash to make more fuel-efficient cars -- and then do nothing to shape consumer behavior.

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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

This is without question one of the worst ideas I have ever heard. I know because the liberals in canada ran an election on the idea of a "carbon tax" (gas tax). No NO NO!!!! don't do it. They lost thankfully (for now).

Any attempt to artificially control the free market with taxes and other bloated government programs WILL end badly, it always does. Lets not loose sight of what really happened in 2008, the free market collapsed partly from a lack of regulation (there is a difference between regulation and taxation). Thats the only reason why fuel prices dropped. Manage the market properly, and the price of fuel will come back up on its own. This is not the time for more taxes.

The sad truth is low prices are temporary and frankly we may even need that as a way to get the economy going again. Artificially inflating the price of gas will not help anything. If I say any more, I may live to regret it.....


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## Technologic (Jul 20, 2008)

david85 said:


> Any attempt to artificially control the free market with taxes and other bloated government programs WILL end badly, it always does. Lets not loose sight of what really happened in 2008, the free market collapsed partly from a lack of regulation (there is a difference between regulation and taxation). Thats the only reason why fuel prices dropped. Manage the market properly, and the price of fuel will come back up on its own. This is not the time for more taxes.


 
I've researched for awhile what loans have been defaulting (the government subsidized loans that are given to people who can't afford/work, etc... many people below poverty level) and I can't see how it was a lack of regulation... I'm fairly certain it was these socialist programs that collapsed, not the free market (though they, like idiots, bet on the governments social programs).

I'm still trying to figure out WHERE this idea that there was too little government involvement came from... I can only assume people like Franke and Pelosi have been spewing it and news networks repeating it blindly.

My guess is that, there are very few low debt, high income families defaulting. The idea that there wasn't enough regulation is an unfounded one, it's far more likely that there was TOO much debt, period, especially debt in the hands of people that it would take their whole LIVES to pay off 1 loan, and they had 4-5 loans (because of retarded no doc type social engineering loans)


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

The lack of regulation was maybe too general a statement. What played a big role was hedge funds and lending money to people that couldn't afford to pay the money back. The mortgage reset that bumped up the payments only compounded the problem. My assumption is that tighter regulation could have made such practices illegal, but maybe thats wishful thinking on my part because it assumes that the regulations are based on common sense....regulating common sense doesn't usually turn out well either.

Its easy to say now after the fact that hedge funds should have been banned, but when things are going well its unlikely that anyone wants to rock the boat.

I guess its really hard to pin the bame down on one single thing. The whole system was weakened for so long that it really didn't take much to bring it down.

If I had to put the blame in one place I don't think I really could to tell you the truth.


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## Technologic (Jul 20, 2008)

david85 said:


> If I had to put the blame in one place I don't think I really could to tell you the truth.


 
I could, a debt/mortgage backed monetary system.


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

yup, Lending money that isn't backed by anything....what else could we add? I'm sure there is a long list, but basing an economy on debt can't possibly be as bad as it sounds, could it?

Is it just me or is the brick and mortar component of the western economy also dissapearing? It seem as though the main part of the modern eceonomy is just trading stuff. Trading is important, but what happens if that goes under? would be nice if there was still an auto industry or ship building or whatever. As long as its something thats real and solid. I guess durable goods is the technical term.

It still boggles my mind how it could all be brought down so quickly....


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## Technologic (Jul 20, 2008)

david85 said:


> yup, Lending money that isn't backed by anything....what else could we add? I'm sure there is a long list, but basing an economy on debt can't possibly be as bad as it sounds, could it?
> 
> Is it just me or is the brick and mortar component of the western economy also dissapearing? It seem as though the main part of the modern eceonomy is just trading stuff. Trading is important, but what happens if that goes under? would be nice if there was still an auto industry or ship building or whatever. As long as its something thats real and solid. I guess durable goods is the technical term.
> 
> It still boggles my mind how it could all be brought down so quickly....


If nobody needs what you trade anymore, you advance the item, etc. You change and adapt to grow as a business and adapt quicker than anyone else.

The only marketable thing is ideas IMO, and not just any ideas... unique ones.

This is what history remembers as well, so clearly, for our species, it's incredibly important. You hear about Plato and not about Livy because Plato had new ideas at the time, Livy was just a historian.


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## Jason Lattimer (Dec 27, 2008)

And lets not forget the fact that as you decrease the demand for an item....IE less demand for gas because everyone is going electric.... the price will drop like a rock. Just remember to the ev haters even at a dollar a gallon evs are still a much more economical alternative to gas.


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

Jason Lattimer said:


> And lets not forget the fact that as you decrease the demand for an item....IE less demand for gas because everyone is going electric.... the price will drop like a rock. Just remember to the ev haters even at a dollar a gallon evs are still a much more economical alternative to gas.


Very good point. This is why Its my opinion that gas will be around for a long time to come. The difference will be that it is no longer the monopoly that it is now and will gradually fall out of favor. I don't think I will live to see the day when hydrocarbon fules are gone though.

I don't know why everyone high up seems to think there has to be a one standard solution (cough*hydrogen*cough) for energy.

The more choice the better.


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## Technologic (Jul 20, 2008)

Jason Lattimer said:


> And lets not forget the fact that as you decrease the demand for an item....IE less demand for gas because everyone is going electric.... the price will drop like a rock. Just remember to the ev haters even at a dollar a gallon evs are still a much more economical alternative to gas.


 
or they'll just have $2.00/gallon in taxes (like in Argentina and Europe), or OPEC will just cut production massively.


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

Technologic said:


> or OPEC will just cut production massively.


They are trying, but it seems that OPEC countries are not as well disciplined as we once thought.


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## Technologic (Jul 20, 2008)

david85 said:


> They are trying, but it seems that OPEC countries are not as well disciplined as we once thought.


 
Well it's in their best interest to cheat their own agreements in such times, as their GDP is solely based on exportation of oil.


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## Weird Harold (Oct 4, 2008)

I'm all for a big gas tax,AS LONG AS they get rid of another really bad tax, like real astate tax for instance.


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## Technologic (Jul 20, 2008)

Weird Harold said:


> I'm all for a big gas tax,AS LONG AS they get rid of another really bad tax, like real astate tax for instance.


Governments never trade taxes, only add new ones... I've never heard of any tax being removed... throughout all history the only times I've seen it is with violent overthrows of governments.

If they resended all property taxes for all places in the US I say make gas 6/gallon 

But god only knows that will never ever happen.


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

it is possible for taxes to get scaled back slightly on rare ocasions, but I am not aware of ANY tax that ever gets repealed completely.


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## Jason Lattimer (Dec 27, 2008)

So much for,"No taxation without representation"

Kind of makes you sick when you stop and think about just how much we pay in taxes huh?


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## Jordan (Oct 29, 2008)

The only tax that I know of that actually got repealed was the Harrison stamp act. It was stamps for the taxation of marijuana which was found to be an idiot law by the Supreme court. You had to show up with the weed in order to get the stamps but by doing so you violated the law by having the weed with no stamp. That is the only one that I know of that actually got repealed and not scaled back.

They actually started letting people pay taxes on illegal drugs in Tennessee as of a couple of years ago. If you get busted and posses less/equal value then what you have payed in for then they can not charge with tax evasion. If you beat the charge you could probably turn around and sue the state for the street value of the drugs or possibly the drugs themselves.

I guess I am curious how hiking the gas up is going to help people that are looking for jobs. It is hard enough right now to find work, not a lot of places hiring. So they are doing a lot of driving while searching. It is a small blessing for them that they are not paying $5 a gallon (like a couple months ago) while they out looking. Imagine looking for a job everyday and spending $40 just to drive around and turn in applications. I think leaving it low is the best way to go.


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## jlsawell (Apr 4, 2008)

Jordan said:


> I think leaving it low is the best way to go.


While there are a load of taxes/duties/excises that various governments levy on fuel, the underlying issue is the price of oil.

I think it will stay low for a couple of months, and then steadily increase towards $100 - $150 per barrel.

The reason is: at $120, it was worth producing more oil domestically. All those little mom & pop drilling wells that had sat idle for 10 years suddenly came to life and started making money again. The Canadian Tar Sands, Dakota oil fields and all those damn solar/wind projects started getting loads of funding.

So OPEC allows the price to drop, which kills a lot of the "competition" dead. Look at what the Russians just did in Ukraine (cutting off the gas). Their economy is broke while oil is less than $60, so they need to use their muscle to make sure nobody tries to take advantage of them. Their military has been MASSIVELY expanded by oil & gas profits and all the old weapons have been cleared out of the warehouses and dropped on the Georgians. Now there's room to store the latest gadgets they've been building based on the intel their spies have sent back from Iraq (designed specifically to defeat the latest US stuff) .

Once the idiot governments cancel/abandon their solar/wind/domestic production thinking "Hallelujah, problem solved", OPEC can just keep scaling back production until the price goes back to where it was. It's basic economics, same as was used by GM in "Who Killed the EV-1"

OPEC did the same thing in the 70's to kill the Venezuelans. It worked, and most cars in V run on Ethanol they make from all that sugar cane. They weren't so stupid as to PAY the farmers to make ethanol from FOOD like the rest of us!

So gas at the pump should stay low for a while, maybe 3-6 months. But expect to see it climb again. After all, Ferrari just released a new model, so Prince Fahd needs the extra cash so he can buy 7 or 8 of them. He also needs to top up the petty cash tin at his piggy-bank (I mean Citibank). At least the job seekers will get a break. 

My advice: live a little more like "Little House on the Prairie". Grow some fruit & Veggies if you can. Cut down on the red meat and cancel any non-essential cash drains like cable TV, eating out and magazine subscriptions. For entertainment, visit a library or start an exercise regime. But that's the kind of discipline that would have kept us OUT of the trouble we're in...crazy talk...


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