# Hopes & Dream of Converting Honda Civic (2001-2005)



## DaMenaCe (Apr 29, 2014)

Hello Everyone,

The name is Dennis, young college student from North Jersey area with hopes and dream to join the revolution. 

I have been following YouTube and reading material online for a while but at times it can get overwhelming. i want to say i have the basics figured out but than again, i am pretty convinced i have barely scratched the surface. 

well with that being said, i was hoping you guys can help me out here and don't mind sharing what you know from experience. Occasional kick in the rear are appreciated as well as long as it helps me and not just something to bash me. 

English is my second language so, do bear with silly grammatical or spelling errors.

So getting to the good stuff:

The vehicle i have choosen to convert is 2001- 2005 Honda Civic, Manual transmission. ( i don't have it yet, but was considering paying up to 1500 for 2004 model, is that good?)

For the motor, i really want to salvage one from a fork lift. A DC series wound, weighting about 150 plus. ( selection concluded form one of the stickes) any suggestions or notes?

I would like the care to have a range of about 25 to 30 miles, with about 50-65mph speed. I am not too sure if thats possible with 12v batteris and if so how many would i need. Also, is the cost of li-ion batteries significantly higher than the regular 12v batteries?

i am considering 144v system. 

Keeping the money aspect in mind, i would like to go with 12 volt car batteries. however, i think i need help and guidance in this area. 

Next up on the list is the controller for all this and than the charger. i have been looking at controller and man oh man they are expensive!! i have seen few DIY options and was considering that. 

As for now, i have no idea about how to charge these batteries. 

Thats all for now. i will post more questions as i have them. 

Thanks,
DEnnis


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## TheSGC (Nov 15, 2007)

Take at look at my 2001 Civic EX coupe:

http://2001-civic-ev.blogspot.com/

I have a Zilla Z1K controller, 144V Lithium CALB SE180 cells, Elcon 2000+ charger, manual transmission. I get about 80 miles per charge and can easily charge over night.


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## TeckniX (Apr 30, 2014)

TheSGC said:


> Take at look at my 2001 Civic EX coupe:
> 
> http://2001-civic-ev.blogspot.com/
> 
> I have a Zilla Z1K controller, 144V Lithium CALB SE180 cells, Elcon 2000+ charger, manual transmission. I get about 80 miles per charge and can easily charge over night.


Do you have a total build cost handy? I'd be interested as this seems like a pretty good setup!


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## sholland (Jan 16, 2012)

I'm in the process of building my own, though a 96 hatchback... You can see the progress here:
http://1996-civic-ev.blogspot.com

Good luck!

There are many good tools from fellow members to help predict what you might need, then I just watched the classified section for the batteries I wanted.


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## Roy Von Rogers (Mar 21, 2009)

Dennis you need to wake up out of your dream. Forget fork lift motors and lead acid batteries. Unless you have the skills, tools and machinery, its a recipes for disaster.

Unless you have $15.000 to $20.000 available to you, keep on dreaming and wait till you have such funds available. Take a look here and get an idea how you may be able to achieve your wet dream, if you have the funds....

http://www.evwest.com/catalog/index.php?cPath=40&osCsid=qjuju93vn44fmkuhkhbqmcbc54

And you still have to get lithium batteries, which may cost from a minimum of $5000 to $10.000 depending how fast and how far you want to go.

Now I'm not saying you cant do it for less, it depends on your skill and know how, and the will power to learn.

But forget lead acid batteries, they are not called lead sleds for nothing.

Also you may want to think about purchasing someone else's project, and fix or improve on it......

http://www.evfinder.com/classifieds.htm#US Classifieds

http://www.evtradinpost.com/



Roy


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## TheSGC (Nov 15, 2007)

I don't have the complete total, but it's about $22k including the car itself. 

My first EV was a 1996 Civic that I got running for under $2k, then kept upgrading as time went on: http://civicity.blogspot.com/


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## ga2500ev (Apr 20, 2008)

Roy Von Rogers said:


> Dennis you need to wake up out of your dream. Forget fork lift motors and lead acid batteries. Unless you have the skills, tools and machinery, its a recipes for disaster.


I think I'm going to have to respectfully push back on this assertion a bit.


> Unless you have $15.000 to $20.000 available to you, keep on dreaming and wait till you have such funds available. Take a look here and get an idea how you may be able to achieve your wet dream, if you have the funds....
> 
> http://www.evwest.com/catalog/index.php?cPath=40&osCsid=qjuju93vn44fmkuhkhbqmcbc54


These are kit prices. They are priced specifically for people who are unwilling or unable to do their own work. As Dennis pointed out in his opening, he is a student. In general this means that he can replace dollars with time and enthusiasm. There's always a spectrum that folks can operate in. Usually the cheapest route in dollars is the most time consuming and requires learning the most skills. But if learning the skills is the objective, then why try to dissuade a student from his aspiration?



> And you still have to get lithium batteries, which may cost from a minimum of $5000 to $10.000 depending how fast and how far you want to go.


He's already stated how far (25-30 miles) and how fast (55-60 MPH) he would like to go. I'm sure that simply taking a look at some archive threads for theSGC before he switched to lithium you can get a sense of speed and distance for the platform with lead.


> Now I'm not saying you cant do it for less, it depends on your skill and know how, and the will power to learn.


Exactly.



> But forget lead acid batteries, they are not called lead sleds for nothing.


Have to disagree again. Lead has a place in terms of opportunity cost if the capital cost of lithium cannot be funded up front. There are limitations such as weight, replacement cost, and limited range. However, if it takes 3 years to save for lithium, then that's three years lost opportunity.

It's never a bad idea to think of lead as a "starter pack". It'll get the vehicle on the road with limitations for a limited capital cost.

Lithium's primary problems in terms of capitalization is that they only come packaged in cells and they have a limited C amp draw ratings. It's just not good from a packaging standpoint unless you plan to map out the entire pack.

Lead comes in 12V batteries. 3 is fine for testing and 6 will get you on the road for short trips. There's just no easy way to do the same with lithium.



> Also you may want to think about purchasing someone else's project, and fix or improve on it......
> 
> http://www.evfinder.com/classifieds.htm#US Classifieds
> 
> http://www.evtradinpost.com/


Again there is a significant capitalization cost in doing so. Someone who has already done most or all of the work is going to place value on the time, effort, and dollars already invested.

Putting an EV together can be done on the cheap. Get it going, then upgrade to where you need it. Start with 72V of 12V batteries, a 72V controller, and a forklift motor. Upgrade the controller. Either add more lead batteries, or start augmenting with lithium as you can afford it.

Sitting, saving, and hoping isn't the way to get the project done. Doing, and sometimes failing, or working with limitations, is the way to make progress.

ga2500ev



Roy[/QUOTE]


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## DaMenaCe (Apr 29, 2014)

oh wow, thank you guys for taking the time out to reply. SGC, i have been following your blog post for a while.. read through almost all of it. Thanks for that..

ga2500ev, thanks for seeing where i am coming from. This project is just as much about learning, as much as it is about having an EV. My younger brother and i are both Engineering students so, we like to learn and apply what we know. A kit would never give me the "satisfaction" HOWEVER, at the same time i do realize that i would HAVE to buy some of the pre made stuff or would only make sense to just purchase it there is no point in re-inventing the wheel. 

i have been trying to understand the role of batteries in the conversion, and i am starting to like the idea of li-ion batteries. however, it doesn't seem like it would fit my budget, at lest not as of now.

is there a way for me to calculate or estimate the amount of batteries i would need to go 25-30 miles at about 50- 65mph?? 

i am considering this controller for $ 600 plus shipping i believe. http://www.paulandsabrinasevstuff.com/store/page3.html

http://www.paulandsabrinasevstuff.com/store/page3.html 

would it be a good buy? or there are other options that are priced closed to it and have more users/support.??



P.S my brother and i are both Mech Engineering Major, so we dont know much about EE but we did take a class hahaha.. clearly there is physics involved, so we are willing to learn.


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

Hi DaMenace

Reading the comments
My take
Forget lead - Get a small lithium pack and extend it later
Use a forklift motor 
AC is very expensive, DC for EV's is just forklift motors with a paint job and an extra zero on the price
I paid $100 for mine

Controllers the OpenRevolt is great - you will learn a ton - and even if you need to rebuild it (like I did) its still cheap for the power

My rough breakdown
Motor $100
Controller - $600
Charger - $150
Batteries - 40S x 4P Headway 16Ah - $3500 - 8Kwhrs - 30miles
Other bits $300


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## DaMenaCe (Apr 29, 2014)

Duncan, 

My brother, I appreciate your reply and man that really did put a smile on my face haha. 
Even if the $$ estimate is off, i like the idea of not being considered a lunatic for having this approach. Also, what you suggest is an awesome idea, start of with a small pack and extended it as i get more $$. 

So, i am not too sure if you had a chance to read my original post but, as of now my understanding/requirement of the motor is, it should be:


Functional 
DC Series Wound motor.
9inch ??
weight 150 or more ( but not 250 plus, which might be too heavy)

I am considering stopping by at a Local Forklift salvage/repair/rental place, 2 blocks away form my house. Do you know what i should be asking for other than what i have listed above? Please let me know if i am missing anything on the list above, Voltage rating/max or min? Especially considering i will be dealing with people that might perceiving information from cut sheet or plate differently.

i have read one of the Stickey where a Gentleman (forgot his username) is suggesting i take pictures and send it to him to evaluate it. 

Also, Could you tell me more about the batteries and the Charger please? i am having hard time even rendering what 40s X 4p means hahah. ( i a researching it as we speak though, so if i dont figure it out, maybe your respond will help.)

I would Like more information on "other bits" too but one thing at a time. HAHA. 

THANKS AGAIN,
DENNIS


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

Hi
This is my "Device"
http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forum...-dubious-device-44370p2.html?highlight=duncan

When you are looking for a forklift motor - first read the thread on using one!

You are correct a 9 inch motor - about 140lbs
Probably badged as 36v or 48v - about 7Kw
It will have four pairs of brushes 

Find anything suitable and post pictures for the expert (Major) to comment
Don't worry about the forklift guys being skeptical 


Batteries
Lithium batteries are ~ 3.2v so 40S is 40 in series
4P is 4 in parallel 
So I have 160 cells (40 x 4) each is 16Ah
so my pack is 64Ah x 128v
I am using Headway which are high power batteries each is capable of
10C continuous
15C for about 10 seconds
So each cell can produce 16A x 10 = 160amps x 4 = 640amps
or for acceleration 16A x 15 = 240amps x 4 = 960amps

If I had CALB or similar - a 60Ah x 44 pack
3C continuous
12C for about 10 seconds
So each cell can produce 60A x 3 = 180amps 
or for acceleration 60A x 12 = 720amps 

Which would be absolutely fine - 180 amps would keep you going at 70mph and you acceleration would be "adequate" - enough to blow away a standard car

Charger
You can buy a good one for $3000
Buy a lovely kit for $1200

Or make a "Bad Boy" for $50

I simply use a transformer (to drop our 230v to 110v) a bridge rectifier to turn it into 170v DC and some capacitors to smooth out the flow

This charges my pack at about 8 amps
Then I have a JLD 404 (about $100)
which switches the system off when the voltage is correct

Other bits
You will need contactors - cables - connectors
Get as much from the scrap forklift as you can


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## DaMenaCe (Apr 29, 2014)

Duncan,

Reading your "my Device" thread, i feel like i have learned more as oppose to a class! funny / sad at the same time.

I am going to start collecting the motor controller and other bits first. 

Love the concept of "Bad Boy" i have assembled a small bench power supply based on something very similar. However, doesn't these batteries need to be regulated,charges,discharged "properly" to extend their life cycle/performance. I am really trying to keep the cost down but, at the same time if i am spending decent amount on a battery, it only makes sense to protect your investment. 

i have seen videos of people ordering parts that cost thousands called BMS which are networked and programed with RS232 and yea u get the picture. this JLD 404 your refer to, will it do something similar? I am aware of the fact that, you get what you pay for so, i am thinking its not exactly the same thing. but would would it be good enough for decent protection? Again i am going to Reseach this JLD 404  thanks!!

Also, thank you for making the battery configuration clear. i am gonna read more about gaging the size of the battery and see how did you derive those numbers. Again, mostly for learning purpose as i am pretty sure i will be going with what you suggested.


Thanks,
Dennis


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

_Love the concept of "Bad Boy" i have assembled a small bench power supply based on something very similar. However, doesn't these batteries need to be regulated,charges,discharged "properly" to extend their life cycle/performance. I am really trying to keep the cost down but, at the same time if i am spending decent amount on a battery, it only makes sense to protect your investment._

Talking about BMS's is a good way to start flame wars - there have been a lot of threads on this - do a search

My take
Lithium batteries don't drift, they work or die

Discharge - this is controlled by you - go too far you kill your batteries

I use this dinky system to warn if I have a dead cell
http://www.evdl.org/pages/battbridge.html
By then it is too late

I use a "Cycle Analyst" 
http://www.ebikes.ca/product-info/grin-products/cycle-analyst.html
as my main instrument
This tells me Ah used (as well as speed current, mileage....)
I have 16Ah x 4 = 64Ah available - so I use 75% = 48Ah
(Actually my early Headways (they don't make these cells anymore) are less than 16Ah so I set my limit at 40Ah)

Charge - go too far you kill your batteries,
You "bad boy" should be set so it does not charge too fast
My batteries would be OK with 120amps
My charger can manage 8amps ...

PROBLEM
All of the cells are not the same
So you can either have them all together at the top (Top Balance) (fully charged)
Or at the bottom (95% discharged) (Bottom Balanced)

Top balanced means your charger won't hurt the cells 
Bottom balanced means that running them flat wont damage the cells

Read the threads - see what you think


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## DaMenaCe (Apr 29, 2014)

Thanks for the tips.. and again, every piece of information is highly appreciated!! 

I just watched a video yesterday trying to understand "bottom balancing." 

Please confirm if i understood this correctly.

when you "bottom balance," all the cells are exactly the same volt and when charge them equally, the top voltage/number might not match exactly but when discharged at an equal rate.. one wont be significantly lower in voltage as oppose to others in the pack.

i will be reading more threads, understanding BMS, Charging procedure, discharging and more.. 

Thanks again.


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## DaMenaCe (Apr 29, 2014)

So, i wanted to see if there was a way to calculate how much energy (Kwh) would be required to travel "x" miles.


so i tried this http://enginuitysystems.com/EVCalculator.htm

i am not sure if i am doing this right but.


Michelin Energy Saver 0.855 ( apparently used on civic hybrids)
Cd =0.28 and some of the other info from link below

( http://ecomodder.com/wiki/index.php/Vehicle_Coefficient_of_Drag_List )



5kwh/mile doesn't really seems correct.. is it ? please let me know anyone else can make sense out of that ..

Also, if your know a correct procedure i would like to know how do u approach this.


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## Roy Von Rogers (Mar 21, 2009)

Rule of thumb is 10% of the weight of vehicle. So if the vehicle weighs 2500, figure 250wh per mile.

Roy


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

Hi Menace

As an engineering student I would expect you to do the calcs yourself

The problem with using something like that is that you don't know the assumptions he/she has made

The main problem seems to be rolling resistance
http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/rolling-friction-resistance-d_1303.html

I would expect something like 0.02 - NOT 0.85 - 
if wheels had numbers like that we would still be using wooden sledges


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## DaMenaCe (Apr 29, 2014)

ROy,

I have missed that "rule of thumb" for some reason, thanks for that.

Duncan,

I wouldn't mind the calculations at all, its jut that i have seen this one thread where someone suggested using these "EV calculators" so i figured i give it a shot.

I am going to try a more basic approach and do this by hand. Thanks Guys


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## ga2500ev (Apr 20, 2008)

DaMenaCe said:


> Thanks for the tips.. and again, every piece of information is highly appreciated!!
> 
> I just watched a video yesterday trying to understand "bottom balancing."
> 
> ...


If you replace "exactly the same volt" with "exactly the same charge" then that is essentially correct.



> i will be reading more threads, understanding BMS, Charging procedure, discharging and more..
> 
> Thanks again.


You wouldn't typically use a BMS on a bottom balanced pack. A BMS is designed to give cells in a pack different amounts of charge. This means that the pack is no longer balanced at the bottom because they no longer have exactly the same charge.

It's OK (and expected) that you'll monitor the pack during charge and discharge. But the objective is to ensure that each cell gets exactly the same amount of charge, and that no cell is every overcharged or overdischarged.

When done right a bottom balanced pack is a "set and mostly forget" system where you charge it to the same total voltage, and make sure that you never discharge it below a certain voltage. This keeps everything balanced.

ga2500ev


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## DaMenaCe (Apr 29, 2014)

ga2500ev,

Thanks for that correction.. i had to read that few times but i think i figured it out. 



ga2500ev said:


> It's OK (and expected) that you'll monitor the pack during charge and discharge. But the objective is to ensure that each cell gets exactly the same amount of charge, and that no cell is every overcharged or overdischarged.
> 
> When done right a bottom balanced pack is a "set and mostly forget" system where you charge it to the same total voltage, and make sure that you never discharge it below a certain voltage. This keeps everything balanced.



So i have never seen or used a charger before, so this might sound silly but, does any of these chargers have a limiter or option to set "cut off values" while charging.. how does one make sure that " you charge it to the same total voltage"

For discharging, i think i have read somewhere or seen a video of an audible warning system implemented along with a visual monitoring system to ensure you dont go below certain voltage so i think i understand it fairly well. 

Thanks for all of your replies and help. 

Dennis


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## davidmillin (Dec 14, 2013)

> So i have never seen or used a charger before, so this might sound silly but, does any of these chargers have a limiter or option to set "cut off values" while charging.. how does one make sure that " you charge it to the same total voltage"


Yes most if not all of the commercially available chargers are either preprogrammed or able to be self programmed with the required cut off values and normally are set up to deliver a constant amperage until the pack is at the required voltage and then deliver tat constant voltage for a while as the amperage tapers off. This is important as charging normally takes place while you are elsewhere while discharging is a more monitored activity ie takes place while driving.

Hope this helps

David


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## ga2500ev (Apr 20, 2008)

DaMenaCe said:


> ga2500ev,
> 
> Thanks for that correction.. i had to read that few times but i think i figured it out.


No problem.


> So i have never seen or used a charger before, so this might sound silly but, does any of these chargers have a limiter or option to set "cut off values" while charging.. how does one make sure that " you charge it to the same total voltage"


All but the most simple chargers have this feature. It's essential if you do not want to overcharge.


> For discharging, i think i have read somewhere or seen a video of an audible warning system implemented along with a visual monitoring system to ensure you dont go below certain voltage so i think i understand it fairly well.
> 
> Thanks for all of your replies and help.
> 
> Dennis


It's called a low voltage cutoff. Ideally it'll disconnect your battery pack from the drive system so that it cannot be overdisharged.

ga2500ev


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## green_EV 2000 (May 2, 2014)

DaMenaCe said:


> Duncan,
> 
> Also, Could you tell me more about the batteries and the Charger please? i am having hard time even rendering what 40s X 4p means hahah. ( i a researching it as we speak though, so if i dont figure it out, maybe your respond will help.)
> 
> ...


dear：
40SX4P is mean： Such as the use 16AH, the first four batteries connected in parallel to a set of 3.2V/64AH, then 40 sets in series, 128v/64AH, we are specializing in the production of lithium batteries and chargers, hope can help to you

Best wish 

jack


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## DaMenaCe (Apr 29, 2014)

Hey Guys,

i been away for a while because i have been trying to get parts/car as they come along.

Missed an 03 civic priced 900.00, i was upset about that.

But on a brighter note. i found a Motor. ( i will post pictures soon)

i am slightly concern though.. its a 12inch motor, and seem very heavy.
paid 150 for it. 50$ more then what i wanted to pay but oh well. 

My next concern is the battery. i was wondering if someone can recommend battery band or suppliers for the best price. Also, i given the price point of batteries i would defiantly want to get some king of BMS. BMS that wont cost arm and a leg but would protect my investment?

Another concern is, given the "Battery pack formula" to get 8khw, i would need a 10kWh battery pack. is that correct?

Thanks,
Dennis.


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