# [EVDL] The effects of cold weather on EVs



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

According to the energy usage virtual meter, the heating and A/C and fans
take about 6.5kw when full on. Plus head lights, wipers, and so on. If I'm
in city traffic with a lot of slow movement and stoplights, I might take 20
minutes to go 2 miles. That's maybe 3kwh that does *not* go for moving the
car. So, with all systems off I might get 3 miles/kwh, or .33kwh/mile. 

So, that 2 mile trip in good conditions probably takes .66kwh + systems;
let's just say 1kwh. In lousy weather, that becomes 4kwh. You can see how
quickly the mileage becomes terrible. I doubt battery temperature would
make much difference.

On the other hand, fuel economy of an ICE does terrible in these conditions,
too. All said, the EV is better!

Peri

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf
Of Larry Gales
Sent: 17 February, 2012 2:13 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List; SEVA
Subject: [EVDL] The effects of cold weather on EVs

I understand that a car like the Nissan Leaf suffers a large loss in range
due to cold weather, and is typically limited to 60 miles. I'm trying to
figure out what causes this.

(1) is it the effect of the temperature on the battery? With my Lithium
powered E-Bike I don't seem to see any range difference in temperatures
ranging from 36 F to 80 F, and I know that simply using a battery will
moderately heat it, so it is not clear to me that this is a major factor.

(2) Is it the energy needed to heat the interior of the car? I thought that
this was the case, and so heating the seats and steering wheel instead of
the entire car should consume 10 times less power, but I have been told by
someone who uses heated seats in the Leaf that it does not solve the
problem.

(3) So is it some other factor, increased frictions, cold lubricants, etc?

Thanks in advance for any insight to this problem.

-- Larry Gales

--
Larry Gales
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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

I've heard that it is not possible to turn the climate control system on
the leaf off... so you can't just put on your coat and bear it if you get
stuck in a snowstorm. You have to keep it nice and warm (or at least as
warm as the lowest setting on the heat) even if that means not making it
home... sounds kind of silly to me.

A different question... does the EPA estimated range (and manufacturers for
that matter) assume that the headlights are off? Because I never drive
with my headlights off, even during the day. Modern cars like the Leaf
would be required by law to have daytime running lights, which it seems
should be included in the range estimates -- the addition of some LED brake
and turn lights at night would be quite minor compared to the forward
pointing lights, I'd think.

Z



> Cal Frye <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> > On 2/17/12 5:13 PM, Larry Gales wrote:
> > > I understand that a car like the Nissan Leaf suffers a large loss in
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

I believe that ALL the lights on the Nissan Leaf are LED, so their effect
on the range should be very minimal.

-- Larry Gales



> Zeke Yewdall <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> > I've heard that it is not possible to turn the climate control system on
> > the leaf off... so you can't just put on your coat and bear it if you get
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Even the headlights? Nice. I saw my first Leaf in person the other day,
parked at the Walgreens in Boulder. Didn't get to look at it up close as I
was in the wrong lane to pull in, but it looked pretty nice driving by.

Z



> Larry Gales <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> > I believe that ALL the lights on the Nissan Leaf are LED, so their effect
> > on the range should be very minimal.
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

My Leaf gets about 65 miles per charge at 55 mph in weather below 32 degrees.
Headlights have little to no bearing on mileage. You can turn off the
climate control. I usually just pre-heat them go. Performance is still OK
when cold but the car has limitations built in to protect the batteries.
Yes, cold weather has a huge effect on batteries. You begin to see the
effects at around freezing and as they get colder they get more sluggish. My
LiFePO4 cell went into total hibernation mode at -20F. It would not accept a
charge but would allow a tiny bit out. At -59 it was fully asleep. Once
thawed to above 0F it was able to just move a motor. At 15F it would run and
above no problems. Cell damage? None. 

-----
If you don't understand, be patient, you will. Now I understand. 
--
View this message in context: http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/The-effects-of-cold-weather-on-EVs-tp4398614p4398974.html
Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

I don't have a Leaf, but I have a home conversion with LiFePO4 batteries
(ThunderSky). You do indeed see the difference in cold weather. The
fundamental problem is that the batteries have a higher internal resistance
when cold. This causes more voltage drop at the motor under load. For
example: 

I can cruise at 60 MPH drawing 100A from my nominal 144V battery pack. The
battery voltage under this load will be at about 140V. When the batteries
are at about 32F (0C), that same 100A draw will cause them to droop to about
130V. However, the motor still needs the same power to cruise at 60 MPH, so
the car will draw about 115A instead of 100A. This causes the range to
drop.

Add on top of that, the heater will probably draw about 1 kWh (out of 13
kWh) from my pack, and the range drops further.

I'm in the process of adding heaters and battery insulation to my EV for
exactly this reason. I want to get the battery performance up to what it
was in the summer time. I will heat the batteries while plugged in to
recharge. That will let me leave with batteries at 75F. The insulation
should allow them to stay at 70-75F by the time I arrive at work and go back
on the charger. 

That will let my battery performance improve to the point that only the
heater draw will affect my range. I didn't even have insulation before, so
I wasn't getting much benefit from the batteries heating up. The heat was
being dissipated by the airflow under the hood.

Mike
www.evalbum.com/2778


> -----Original Message-----
> From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On
> Behalf Of gottdi
> Sent: Friday, February 17, 2012 7:08 PM
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] The effects of cold weather on EVs
> 
> My Leaf gets about 65 miles per charge at 55 mph in weather below 32
> degrees.
> Headlights have little to no bearing on mileage. You can turn off the
climate
> control. I usually just pre-heat them go. Performance is still OK when
cold but
> the car has limitations built in to protect the batteries.
> Yes, cold weather has a huge effect on batteries. You begin to see the
> effects at around freezing and as they get colder they get more sluggish.
My
> LiFePO4 cell went into total hibernation mode at -20F. It would not accept
a
> charge but would allow a tiny bit out. At -59 it was fully asleep. Once
thawed
> to above 0F it was able to just move a motor. At 15F it would run and
above
> no problems. Cell damage? None.
> 
> -----
> If you don't understand, be patient, you will. Now I understand. 
> --
> View this message in context: http://electric-vehicle-discussion-
> list.413529.n4.nabble.com/The-effects-of-cold-weather-on-EVs-
> tp4398614p4398974.html
> Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at
> Nabble.com.
> 
> _______________________________________________
> | Moratorium on drag racing discussion is in effect.
> | Please take those discussions elsewhere. Thanks.
> |
> | REPLYING: address your message to [email protected] only.
> | Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Hello List,

I am a long time lurker on this list and the topic of cold weather effects 
on EV's is really of interest to me. 

I am considering purchasing a Leaf as they have become available up here 
in Montreal in small but obtainable numbers. I do have lot's of concerns 
about the performance of the battery in very cold weather. I'm not really 
too concerned about range loss because I only have a 22 Km drive to work 
round trip. But I don't have charging at work. The car would sit for 8-10 
hours exposed to the great Canadian winter and then have to make it home.

We regularly get Temp's of -20 Deg C throughout the winter (Dec,Jan and 
Feb) I worry that if the car sits outside in these temps for too long the 
battery will chill down to a level that will cause it to be almost inop.
I realize that a battery warming mechanism could prevent this but I wonder 
about how long you could leave your EV outside before the battery temp 
would drop too much. I think it might become to difficult to use an EV 
here in Montreal in the winter if you constantly have to look at the 
weather forecast and plan either shelter or charging/warming of the 
battery in your car. I'm kind of thinking that charging/warming the 
battery is like life support for the car. If you have to constantly be 
thinking about your car surviving it's time outside (like you would for 
yourself or your kids or cold days) that would be a big change in the 
experience of using a car in the winter up here. I usually think of a car 
in winter as a piece of survival gear that allows me to get from one place 
to another without dieing not as a liability that I could not depend on.

What do you guys think about this ?

I also notice a lot of talk of seat warmers and heated steering wheels in 
lieu of heating the cabin with hot air. I did some experiments on that in 
my ICE car this winter. I bought a heated seat pad and tried driving home 
from work (11 Km) on a very cold day (-20 deg C) just using the heated 
seat pad and a pair of good mittens. After about 10 minutes in the car it 
pretty much became unbearable. I was dressed really well but my feet were 
freezing and so was my head and face. My back and butt was fine but it 
was really uncomfortable. I just turned on the heat and said to hell with 
this. So basically I don't really think heated seats and steering can 
really compensate for heating the interior of the car. I have heated seats 
on my other car a Nissan rogue and they are really nice as they heat up 
pretty fast but you need to heat the cabin or else your going to be really 
miserable. That being said I did the same test on a really nice sunny day 
at -7 deg C and it was fine. The solar heating combined with the seat heat 
was enough. 

So given my situation I think a Leaf would be a really great car fro me 
about 9 months out of the year but in the winter would it be OK to sit for 
8-10 hours in bitter temperatures ? Has anyone though about this or have 
some data on it ?
If the car would not work in a situation like that (when you really need 
it) I would find that really hard to swallow and I think perhaps a volt or 
something with a heat source would be a better way to go.

I really am a big FAN of EV's I built an E-bike a couple of years ago and 
love the whole idea of getting around on electrons. I'm just wondering if 
the BEV could handle the Montreal Quebec weather in a practical way.

Thanks for any comments.

Don..... 


I saw a Nissan video saying that the battery temp was fine driving around 
at -9 deg C but I assume that was starting with a warm car.
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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> [email protected] wrote:
> 
> > I am considering purchasing a Leaf as they have become available up here
> > in Montreal in small but obtainable numbers. I do have lot's of concerns
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Hello Don,

I live in Great Falls, Montana which is about 75 miles south of Canada. 
Back in the 70's I drove my EV every day through out the year with 
temperatures down to -35 F.

At work, I notice the parking lot lights was fed by 120/240 vac with a No 
Awg 6 feeder service. Now these light are only on at night, and I go to 
work during the day. So I contacted the power company to get permission to 
install a 120 volt power outlet on the pole which will be use to lightly 
charge the batteries at a maximum of 15 amps and then holds a maintainer 
charge.

They said yes I can. So I purchase all the material, which included a 
weather head, 3/4 inch rigid galvanized steel conduit, 6 conduit straps, 
fasteners, a weather proof power box, weather proof 3/4 inch hub that bolts 
to top of the power box for the 3/4 inch conduit. This power outlet includes 
one 20 amp single pole breaker and a 20 amp duplex 120 volt GFI receptacle. 
Use No. 10 AWG THW (only) stranded copper wire in black, white and green.

You use some of the conduit to come out the bottom of the power box to a 
ground rod that is pounded into the ground. Connect the green wire to the 
grounding bar which cross connects to the neutral bar that comes in from 
overhead or it could be from a under ground feeder.

I assemble this power box with the conduit, wire install, about 3 feet of 
wire coming out of the weather head. Install a plywood back board which is 
painted and mounts on two galvanize channels that is lag screw to the pole. 
In stall the ground rod and conduit and ground wire in place.

Contacted the power company, and a line crew came out and install the power 
box, strap the conduit to the pole and connect up to the overhead service.

Your power company may not let this type of installation to be install 
without a meter. You then say, just bill me the monthly fee as if is a yard 
light which there are no meters. If you have to use a meter, then the power 
company will show you how to connect a 120 vac line to a meter that is 
normally use for 120/240 vac.

My month fee at the time was $1.78 a month which is even bill during the 
summer.

Roland


----- Original Message ----- 
From: <[email protected]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, February 28, 2012 3:03 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] The effects of cold weather on EVs


> Hello List,
>
> I am a long time lurker on this list and the topic of cold weather effects
> on EV's is really of interest to me.
>
> I am considering purchasing a Leaf as they have become available up here
> in Montreal in small but obtainable numbers. I do have lot's of concerns
> about the performance of the battery in very cold weather. I'm not really
> too concerned about range loss because I only have a 22 Km drive to work
> round trip. But I don't have charging at work. The car would sit for 8-10
> hours exposed to the great Canadian winter and then have to make it home.
>
> We regularly get Temp's of -20 Deg C throughout the winter (Dec,Jan and
> Feb) I worry that if the car sits outside in these temps for too long the
> battery will chill down to a level that will cause it to be almost inop.
> I realize that a battery warming mechanism could prevent this but I wonder
> about how long you could leave your EV outside before the battery temp
> would drop too much. I think it might become to difficult to use an EV
> here in Montreal in the winter if you constantly have to look at the
> weather forecast and plan either shelter or charging/warming of the
> battery in your car. I'm kind of thinking that charging/warming the
> battery is like life support for the car. If you have to constantly be
> thinking about your car surviving it's time outside (like you would for
> yourself or your kids or cold days) that would be a big change in the
> experience of using a car in the winter up here. I usually think of a car
> in winter as a piece of survival gear that allows me to get from one place
> to another without dieing not as a liability that I could not depend on.
>
> What do you guys think about this ?
>
> I also notice a lot of talk of seat warmers and heated steering wheels in
> lieu of heating the cabin with hot air. I did some experiments on that in
> my ICE car this winter. I bought a heated seat pad and tried driving home
> from work (11 Km) on a very cold day (-20 deg C) just using the heated
> seat pad and a pair of good mittens. After about 10 minutes in the car it
> pretty much became unbearable. I was dressed really well but my feet were
> freezing and so was my head and face. My back and butt was fine but it
> was really uncomfortable. I just turned on the heat and said to hell with
> this. So basically I don't really think heated seats and steering can
> really compensate for heating the interior of the car. I have heated seats
> on my other car a Nissan rogue and they are really nice as they heat up
> pretty fast but you need to heat the cabin or else your going to be really
> miserable. That being said I did the same test on a really nice sunny day
> at -7 deg C and it was fine. The solar heating combined with the seat heat
> was enough.
>
> So given my situation I think a Leaf would be a really great car fro me
> about 9 months out of the year but in the winter would it be OK to sit for
> 8-10 hours in bitter temperatures ? Has anyone though about this or have
> some data on it ?
> If the car would not work in a situation like that (when you really need
> it) I would find that really hard to swallow and I think perhaps a volt or
> something with a heat source would be a better way to go.
>
> I really am a big FAN of EV's I built an E-bike a couple of years ago and
> love the whole idea of getting around on electrons. I'm just wondering if
> the BEV could handle the Montreal Quebec weather in a practical way.
>
> Thanks for any comments.
>
> Don.....
>
>
> I saw a Nissan video saying that the battery temp was fine driving around
> at -9 deg C but I assume that was starting with a warm car.
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|
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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Thank you VERY much for this: it seems to me that you have provided the
definitive answer that I have been looking for. It seems that the only way
to prevent cold weather from greatly affecting the range of an EV is to
depart from electric purity and accept a very small amount of fossil fuel.

About a year ago or so I reported some calculations in this email list
based in the fact that:

(a) electricity is very efficient at running motors but very INEFFICIENT at
creating heat
(b) gasoline is very inefficient at running motors but is almost 90%
EFFICIENT at creating heat

In short, without re-visiting the calculations, I found that you need only
burn from 1-to4 gallons of gasoline PER YEAR (depending on your location in
the U.S.) , to provide the necessary heat for passenger comfort. If you
drive 12,000 miles/year, this works out to between 3000 and 12,000
miles/gallon. I find that amount of gasoline to be acceptable if it allows
an EV in Maine to operate almost as well as an EV in San Diego.

-- Larry Gales



> <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> > Hello List,
> >
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Larry Gales wrote:
> 
> > About a year ago or so I reported some calculations in this email list
> > based in the fact that:
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Maybe it's my Physics degree speaking, but literally no energy source is
INEFFICIENT at creating heat. Heat is the one thing any energy source can
create with high efficiency.

Of course, efficiency is defined as Beneficial Effects Out divided by Energy
in. If you put 3 kW electric current into a heater, you get 3 kW of heat
out of the heater. 100% efficient! 

Now, there are some other problems with this, but efficiency isn't one of
them. One of the biggest issues is that it is fairly expensive and
cumbersome to store 5 kWh of electricity, and it's pretty easy to store the
equivalent energy in a liquid fuel. However, if you have the storage
capacity already for the 5 kWh and can afford to use it for heating,
replacing the 5 kWh in electricity will be about the same cost as replacing
the volume of liquid fuel (depending upon their relative costs)

For example, 5 kWh of electricity will create about 17000 BTU of heat. That
is the same heat capacity as 0.136 US gallons of fuel. If you are paying
$0.11/kWh and $4.00 per gallon for gas, each of the solutions will cost you
right about $0.55. (I'm using http://www.onlineconversion.com/energy.htm as
my energy conversion calculator.) Of course the relative costs may put this
equation more towards one approach or the other.

Now, why are these costs so close when the cost of running the car is so
much more in favor of electric? Because gasoline also converts 100%
efficiently into heat. However, ICE vehicles are only 15-25% efficient in
converting gasoline into motive power. Electricity is more like 80-90%
efficient at driving the wheels.

Mike

> -----Original Message-----
> From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On
> Behalf Of Larry Gales
> Sent: Tuesday, February 28, 2012 7:34 PM
> To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List; SEVA
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] The effects of cold weather on EVs
> 
> Thank you VERY much for this: it seems to me that you have provided the
> definitive answer that I have been looking for. It seems that the only
way to
> prevent cold weather from greatly affecting the range of an EV is to
depart
> from electric purity and accept a very small amount of fossil fuel.
> 
> About a year ago or so I reported some calculations in this email list
based in
> the fact that:
> 
> (a) electricity is very efficient at running motors but very INEFFICIENT
at
> creating heat
> (b) gasoline is very inefficient at running motors but is almost 90%
EFFICIENT
> at creating heat
> 
> In short, without re-visiting the calculations, I found that you need only
burn
> from 1-to4 gallons of gasoline PER YEAR (depending on your location in the
> U.S.) , to provide the necessary heat for passenger comfort. If you drive
> 12,000 miles/year, this works out to between 3000 and 12,000 miles/gallon.
I
> find that amount of gasoline to be acceptable if it allows an EV in Maine
to
> operate almost as well as an EV in San Diego.
> 
> -- Larry Gales
> 
> On Tue, Feb 28, 2012 at 2:03 PM, <[email protected]>


> > wrote:
> >
> > > Hello List,
> > >
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Actually, electricity is 100% efficient in generating heat, provided you
capture all the heat generated. It's just that you have to decide how much
of your energy store you want to use for heat versus traction.

To partially answer Don's question, I first disclaim having any experience
with the frigid Montreal winters. But I do agree that you will want to use
cabin heat. Cranked up, I use 6Kw accorinding to the gages. Part of that
is heat, part A/C (for defrost). I'm not sure how much the heat component
is, but I'm sure at -20C you'll want all of it. Obviously you wont need any
defrost. If your 22Km trip doesn't keep you sitting in traffic jams, then I
don't think 6Kw will be too significant. Use the heat, charge at night, and
you should be fine.

That said, there has been quite a bit of discussion on LiFePO performance in
cold weather, but I don't have anything first hand to add.

Peri


-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf
Of Larry Gales
Sent: 28 February, 2012 6:34 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List; SEVA
Subject: Re: [EVDL] The effects of cold weather on EVs

Thank you VERY much for this: it seems to me that you have provided the
definitive answer that I have been looking for. It seems that the only way
to prevent cold weather from greatly affecting the range of an EV is to
depart from electric purity and accept a very small amount of fossil fuel.

About a year ago or so I reported some calculations in this email list based
in the fact that:

(a) electricity is very efficient at running motors but very INEFFICIENT at
creating heat
(b) gasoline is very inefficient at running motors but is almost 90%
EFFICIENT at creating heat

In short, without re-visiting the calculations, I found that you need only
burn from 1-to4 gallons of gasoline PER YEAR (depending on your location in
the U.S.) , to provide the necessary heat for passenger comfort. If you
drive 12,000 miles/year, this works out to between 3000 and 12,000
miles/gallon. I find that amount of gasoline to be acceptable if it allows
an EV in Maine to operate almost as well as an EV in San Diego.

-- Larry Gales



> <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> > Hello List,
> >
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Thanks Roger,

Your right that is the short answer if you can trust a car company and 
don't ask too many questions. Which I have to admit I do most of the time 
when I purchase something.I would be covered by warranty and if battery 
problems came up Nissan should cover it.

I was more thinking what would be the right new generation car for me. The 
Leaf or i-mev would be my ideal choice as opposed to the Plug-in prius or 
volt because of the zero emissions, The cheap Montreal electricity and the 
fact that I don't really need much range to get to and from work. My 
monster is how would the car deal with everything that winter would throw 
at it. I guess I have a little "Winter anxiety" rather then "range 
anxiety"

I think the Leaf has a 24KWH pack so for such a short drive of 22KM I 
should be OK even if I burn 4KWH to heat the car on the way in and another 
4KWH on the way home. Preheating a car is a nice idea but it does not last 
long in cold temps with no sun. The 22KM drive would consume 
conservatively 300WH/KM*22 KM = 6.6KWH so my round trip with heat to spare 
is about 15KWH. Then let's say 100wh *10h or another 1 KHW to maintain a 
30 Deg C delta between ambient at -20 and +10C a good Battery Temp 
(assuming they insulate that battery pretty well). Is this reasonable ?

So my bottom line in the worst winter conditions is 16KWH to go 22 KM 
comfortably on electricity alone (That's about $1.00 in electricity for me 
at 80% wall to wheel). Not really stellar but at least the car could 
accomplish the mission.

So technically I should be OK. All I have to do is dig up $36K for the car 


BTW 

Thanks Roland for the information on installing the power to the light 
post. I don't really think it's an option for me now but I will use that 
information as an example to talk to the building people about 
possibilities for charging EV's.

Larry,

I think you are right about the ICE and heat thing. In Montreal winters we 
desperately need heat to survive in our cars and the ICE gives us that in 
spades. I think the long and the short of it is that an EV is not really 
an "industrial solution" to getting around in really cold weather. The 
cold is another hurdle for the EV and it winds up squeezing a small 
envelope down even more. I think you are right about adding some kind of 
fuel burning heater to an EV to deal with the winter operation issue. It 
would de-couple the issue of range and winter climate. Unfortunately 
politically it's not a great idea because it kills the "zero emissions" 
concept for the purest. I do have a solution for that I'll take any purest 
for a -25 Deg C ride in my Leaf when I get it with the heat off and ask 
him what he thinks of my new EV.

I think the old VW bugs had a gas heater and an air cooled engine if I 
remember correctly so it has been done before.

Lastly,

I did see a post about putting a heat pump (reverse air conditioner) in an 
EV. I'm not an expert but I don't think this will work. Heat pumps are OK 
at maintaining temperatures in a well insulated house and helping to keep 
the furnace from firing as much but they don't produce much heat when it's 
really cold.


Thanks for your comments and listening.

Don...... 


>From: Roger Stockton <[email protected]>
>Subject: Re: [EVDL] The effects of cold weather on EVs


>Short answer is that if Nissan didn't think the Leaf could handle 
year-round operation in Montreal, they wouldn't offer it for sale there 
;^>

>Cheers,

>Roger.
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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> [email protected] wrote:
> 
> > Your right that is the short answer if you can trust a car company and
> > don't ask too many questions.
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

I agree pretty much with your assessment Donald. I use only an electric seat
heater when it is above about low 30's F (> 0C), lower than that I add some
heat from my 3kW electric heater. I also turn the heat on/off as needed to
clear the windshield. Even at around 20 F, -7 C, I don't leave the heater
on all the time, probably about 50 - 60%. How much it reduces range depends
on the speed I travel at, as it is a smaller percentage of discharge current
when traveling at higher speeds. Of course the lubricants in the drive
train are much stiffer when cold, which also reduces range (my transmission
"growls" in first gear when cold). I keep my batteries heated at about 65 F
when the car is parked at home. They are almost always above 50 F, even
when parked outside unheated for 4 or 5 hours during the day, and I notice
very little difference in performance or range (with heater off) between
winter and summer. There is a very small loss in range with the heater off,
which I attribute mostly to increased drive train losses. The battery
boxes are lined with 1/2" polyurethane insulation. 

Now on the order of -20 C and below is a different story of course. I would
likely leave the heater on most of the time. The heater pulls about 26A
from my nominal 115V pack, so if I left it on all the time, at 60 mph the
discharge current is around 130A, so that would be a 100*26A/130A = 20%
decrease in range (plus that due to drive train losses). At an average
speed of 30 mph in stop and go city driving it would be roughly twice that.
I don't feel that I need a fossil fuel heater in my climate where lows are
more like 20's F, but I think where you live it would be wise to use one to
avoid the hit on range.

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Hi Tom, Roger,


>Note also that if you look in the range section of the site that official 
test results yield a 99km range in -10C weather with the climate control 
system >on and operating in stop and go traffic. Two things strike me 
about this, one is that your range needs are so much less than this that 
even if the >real-world >range is less than the test result, you should 
have no worries at all, and this is in -10C weather, so you probably don't 
need to waste >energy trying to >maintain the battery at +10C for the 
drive home.


I took +10 deg C as a desired target temp to maintain a battery at (just a 
guess). I assume when Nissan says The car runs great at -10C the battery 
is more like at 10 Deg C because it's working. When it sits in -20 deg 
weather faithfully waiting to take you home I guess it should try and keep 
itself warm like +10 deg C I assume that it would take 1 KW of energy to 
keep the battery 30 Deg above ambient (-20 C) for about 10 hours. I guess 
I'm asking how well the car would do in a "cold soak" test. Or in this 
case how much energy does a 10 hour cold soak cost. I think it's slightly 
similar to an accelerated version of the tesla battery brick issue. 
Similar types of concerns.

I did speak to a dealer about the Leaf and they are pretty slim on tech 
details (but they all have nice ties so I guess I can trust them right ? 


I actually trust the (as long as it makes sense to me) people on the list 
more then the people at Nissan. At least until I make more in roads there.

Thanks for the info, glad your sister is enjoying the Volt.

I am sure a Volt or any "EV" with an engine in it would be a "better" 
match for this climate but I'm trying to feel my way with the Leaf to the 
edge of the envelope and see if it could still do the job in the extremes 
of winter. I am gaining more confidence in the idea. Perhaps discussing it 
here will also create more awareness of the types of issues that an EV 
like the Leaf would face in this climate and spur more discussion. 


Tom,

Thanks for your comments and technical information on your conversion. 
Your confirming everything I already know about using a car when it really 
cold outside, Much higher friction causing the drive train to struggle, 
until things warm up you can feel that the car is laboring to move. 

Using fossil fuel is sort of my conclusion also (burn something to stay 
warm in the extremes). But since Nissan does not have this feature I would 
have to add it to the car myself. I thought about adding one of those Tent 
warmer propane burners that have a catalytic converter type gismo in them 
but I'm not sure how well that would work. I would not want to CO poison 
myself ! It does seem like a strange thing to do with a new car..... 

I guess I would have to live with a big dent in the range when it's really 
cold as least for a while.

Don.....
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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> [email protected] wrote:
> > I was more thinking what would be the right new generation car for me. The
> > Leaf or i-mev would be my ideal choice as opposed to the Plug-in prius or
> > volt because of the zero emissions
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf
Of [email protected]
Sent: 29 February, 2012 2:26 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [EVDL] The effects of cold weather on EVs

Hi Tom, Roger,


>Note also that if you look in the range section of the site that 
>official
test results yield a 99km range in -10C weather with the climate control
system >on and operating in stop and go traffic. Two things strike me about
this, one is that your range needs are so much less than this that even if
the >real-world >range is less than the test result, you should have no
worries at all, and this is in -10C weather, so you probably don't need to
waste >energy trying to >maintain the battery at +10C for the drive home.

PH: 99Km range is B.S. Today, I drove 32 miles on a full charge. The
estimated miles left is now 24. Temp was about 35F. Heat was set to 65F,
no defrost. Driving conditions - part freeway, part stop & go on 25mph
streets, sleet & rain.

I think the remaining estimate is too high - it starts out at about 75 and
continually drops faster than my actual milage. So, I would say about 20
left. That's a total of 52 whereas 99Km is about 60. Not only that, 35F is
a good deal warmer than -10C.

Caveat: Seattle driving is not midwest driving - the hills really eat milage
fast on the Leaf. Especially since some of them are too steep for the regen
- it seems to progressively cut out when you press the brake down past a
certain point.

Still, you should have plenty for the commute you are considering.

Peri


I took +10 deg C as a desired target temp to maintain a battery at (just a
guess). I assume when Nissan says The car runs great at -10C the battery is
more like at 10 Deg C because it's working. When it sits in -20 deg weather
faithfully waiting to take you home I guess it should try and keep itself
warm like +10 deg C I assume that it would take 1 KW of energy to keep the
battery 30 Deg above ambient (-20 C) for about 10 hours. I guess I'm asking
how well the car would do in a "cold soak" test. Or in this case how much
energy does a 10 hour cold soak cost. I think it's slightly similar to an
accelerated version of the tesla battery brick issue. 
Similar types of concerns.

I did speak to a dealer about the Leaf and they are pretty slim on tech
details (but they all have nice ties so I guess I can trust them right ? 


I actually trust the (as long as it makes sense to me) people on the list
more then the people at Nissan. At least until I make more in roads there.

Thanks for the info, glad your sister is enjoying the Volt.

I am sure a Volt or any "EV" with an engine in it would be a "better" 
match for this climate but I'm trying to feel my way with the Leaf to the
edge of the envelope and see if it could still do the job in the extremes of
winter. I am gaining more confidence in the idea. Perhaps discussing it here
will also create more awareness of the types of issues that an EV like the
Leaf would face in this climate and spur more discussion. 


Tom,

Thanks for your comments and technical information on your conversion. 
Your confirming everything I already know about using a car when it really
cold outside, Much higher friction causing the drive train to struggle,
until things warm up you can feel that the car is laboring to move. 

Using fossil fuel is sort of my conclusion also (burn something to stay warm
in the extremes). But since Nissan does not have this feature I would have
to add it to the car myself. I thought about adding one of those Tent warmer
propane burners that have a catalytic converter type gismo in them but I'm
not sure how well that would work. I would not want to CO poison myself ! It
does seem like a strange thing to do with a new car..... 

I guess I would have to live with a big dent in the range when it's really
cold as least for a while.

Don.....
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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> On 29 Feb 2012 at 17:26, [email protected] wrote:
> 
> > I thought about adding one of those Tent warmer propane burners that
> > have a catalytic converter type gismo in them but I'm not sure how well
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Donald,

My heaters are a total of 350W for 36 cells, so 10 hours would be 3.5kWh if
they ran continuously. They held the cells a set point of 55 F for two
successive nights of -5 F temperature. A difference of 28 C between set
point and ambient.

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> [email protected] wrote:
> 
> > I took +10 deg C as a desired target temp to maintain a battery at (just a
> > guess). I assume when Nissan says The car runs great at -10C the battery
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Yes, I used efficiency in a loose sense. The real reason is that one
gallon of gasoline/ethanol mixture holds 33.7 kWh of energy, which is much
more than the 24 kWh in the entire Leaf battery pack. While 100% of the
energy in a gas burner is converted to heat, the actual efficiency of
getting it to where it is needed is something on the order of 85-90%, but
that is still way more than you get from the battery.

Even though heat pumps supposedly are 400% efficient, it still requires
about a 2-3 kw drain on the battery to provide enough heat in really cold
weather.

The real point I was making was responding to the note that even with
heated seats, the person stated that he was miserably cold when the
temperature was very low, so a small gas burner heater seems the best way
to go (of course more insulation and thermal glass would be a big help too)

-- Larry



> Roger Stockton <[email protected]>wrote:
> 
> > Larry Gales wrote:
> >
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Since this has stirred up some controversy, let me clarify.

The true efficiency of any energy system is EROEI: Energy Return On Energy
Invested. In truth no one in the world knows how to compute this
accurately because it involves tracing down the embedded energy in the
whole infrastructure involved in the production of energy, but you can at
least look at the 1st order causes.

Consider the statements:

(a) electricity is very efficient at running motors but very INEFFICIENT at
creating heat
(b) gasoline is very inefficient at running motors but is almost 90%
EFFICIENT at creating heat

If we trace the energy expenditure for both we get this:

Gasoline:
(1) drill - (2) transport to refinery - (3) refine - (4) transport to gas
station - (4) burn in heater
For that whole process you get about 10 units of energy from the energy
contained in the oil when you run it through steps (1) - (3). And about
90% efficiency for step (4)

Electricity:
(1) Dig (coal) or drill (gas) - (2) burn in generator - (3) transmit
over lines - - (4) wall plug to battery - (5) battery to heat pump

I'm not sure what (1) is, but (2) is usually only 35-45% efficient, (3)
is about 94% efficient, (4) is about 85% efficient, and (I guess) (5) is
about 90% efficient (?) so there are a lot of losses. Also heat pumps are
only 400% efficient over a narrow range of temperatures: once you get very
cold temperatures you revert to pure resistance heating.

However, the real point is that a gallon of gasoline contains a lot of heat
energy that can be efficiently extracted and does not have to be supplied
by the battery, and so does not have much of an effect on range..

-- Larry Gales







> Larry Gales <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> > Yes, I used efficiency in a loose sense. The real reason is that one
> > gallon of gasoline/ethanol mixture holds 33.7 kWh of energy, which is much
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

You will loose distance per charge in very cold weather. Even in mildly cold
weather will impact the distance you will have. For heating, I'd suggest an
efficient heat sink that can be used to help keep the interior warm during
the drive which will usually be under an hour under normal use. As for the
battery, you need to keep it warm or the car will not charge properly and
once beyond the safe point will not charge at all. A built in preheater that
uses the AC power is the only way to preheat the pack and the interior prior
to use. You can use the heater when needed and we do all the time. I even
use it on my daily commute. I still have enough to make my drive to work and
back. Worst day so far has been about 65 miles on a charge at 60 to 65 mph.
Not using the heat the whole trip. The heater is a heat pump. It needs to be
for the Leaf. Works well but it does draw a significant amount of power.
Exactly how much I do not know. But enough to shorten the usable range. The
Air takes less energy than the heater. Worst cold day so far has been about
20 degrees F this year. We usually don't get much worse than that here. If
you decide to buy an electric car be sure it will cover your needs in worst
case. If it will not then don't buy it. You could convert one that would
meet your needs if you wanted. You could even build one with a switch that
turns off all components if you decide to actually leave your car for any
length of time. We left our fully charged Leaf for two full weeks un-plugged
and it was still full on our return home. I do not worry about leaving it
sit for awhile. I'd leave it for a month if I needed to. But I would charge
it up as soon as I could. Keeping it charged is a no brainer. 

Pete 

-----
If you don't understand, be patient, you will. Now I understand. 
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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

>Donald,

>My heaters are a total of 350W for 36 cells, so 10 hours would be 3.5kWh 
if
>they ran continuously. They held the cells a set point of 55 F for two
>successive nights of -5 F temperature. A difference of 28 C between set
>point and ambient.

This is really interesting. I assume that you don't know how much time 
they were on or how much energy they took
but at least I can see an upper bound to the keeping the battery warm with 
your information.

I guess the worst case number would be to maintain a delta T of 28 Deg 
your warmers were on all the time. So it took 350W*48 hours or ~ 17KWH for 
that period of time.

I could interpret this as 17KWH/48H/28 Deg C and come up with 13 Watts/deg 
C of delta to keep the batterys warm worst case.

In my Leaf scenario that's about triple the guess I made but still doable 
with the amount of energy in the battery. I think it's better to manage my 


expectations with a "worst case" then with an optimistic case. 

Thanks for the real world data.

Don....
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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Donald said:
"This is really interesting. I assume that you don't know how much time 
they were on or how much energy they took 
but at least I can see an upper bound to the keeping the battery warm with 
your information."
That is correct unfortunately. My Wh meter only monitors the 240VAC, not
the 120VAC that powers the heaters. I also have no idea what the Leaf
"winter package" has for insulation and heating of the pack for comparison
purposes.

"I could interpret this as 17KWH/48H/28 Deg C and come up with 13 Watts/deg 
C of delta to keep the batterys warm worst case."

Yep, worst case.

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Hi Pete,

Thanks for the information. 

I am surprised that here is a heat pump in the Leaf. Just because they 
don't work well when it gets very cold
On the other hand they are very efficent when it is not that cold. Perhaps 
there is some resistive heating in there when the temp's
get very cold.

I did find information on the battery warmer in this artical that seems to 
make sense and answers a lot of questions.

http://blogs.cars.com/kickingtires/2011/06/2012-nissan-leaf-battery-warmer-more-details.html

Unfortunately converting one is probably not in the cards for me. I would 
love to do it but
I just don't have the time to devote to a conversion.

I do like the idea of having some sort of non toxic burner in the car, 
I'll have to give that one some thought.

Thanks again 

Don.....

<snip>
You will loose distance per charge in very cold weather. Even in mildly 
cold
weather will impact the distance you will have. For heating, I'd suggest 
an
efficient heat sink that can be used to help keep the interior warm during
the drive which will usually be under an hour under normal use. As for the
battery, you need to keep it warm or the car will not charge properly and
once beyond the safe point will not charge at all. A built in preheater 
that
uses the AC power is the only way to preheat the pack and the interior 
prior
to use. You can use the heater when needed and we do all the time. I even
use it on my daily commute. I still have enough to make my drive to work 
and
back. Worst day so far has been about 65 miles on a charge at 60 to 65 
mph.
Not using the heat the whole trip. The heater is a heat pump. It needs to 
be
for the Leaf. Works well but it does draw a significant amount of power.
Exactly how much I do not know. But enough to shorten the usable range. 
The
Air takes less energy than the heater. Worst cold day so far has been 
about
20 degrees F this year. We usually don't get much worse than that here. If
you decide to buy an electric car be sure it will cover your needs in 
worst
case. If it will not then don't buy it. You could convert one that would
meet your needs if you wanted. You could even build one with a switch that
turns off all components if you decide to actually leave your car for any
length of time. We left our fully charged Leaf for two full weeks 
un-plugged
and it was still full on our return home. I do not worry about leaving it
sit for awhile. I'd leave it for a month if I needed to. But I would 
charge
it up as soon as I could. Keeping it charged is a no brainer. 

Pete 
<snip>
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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> [email protected] wrote:
> 
> >> Donald,
> >
> ...


----------

