# E-Fire '75 Spitfire conversion: 1st build!



## dougingraham (Jul 26, 2011)

Take a lot of pictures and post early and often! This should be a fun project!


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## poprock (Apr 29, 2010)

Also a detailed record, both written and pics of wiring.


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## Moltenmetal (Mar 20, 2014)

Will do my best to document- so far the work has all been repair- dirt, rust, welding sparks, and not much to look at. Having seen what people have done to these Triumphs, I do not for a moment refer to what I'm doing as "restoration"...I have the body off the frame and am prepping the frame for epoxy at the moment. Should get the motor and transmission adapter plate in a few weeks, then the fun will start!

I'm getting mixed messages from people about my AC50/Curtis package. HPEV posts a chart showing a very flat peak torque curve vs RPM, starting at 120 ft-lbs at min speed and dropping only to 110 ft-lbs at 3500 rpm for a 96 V nominal pack voltage (where peak power is delivered). However, some people are telling me that in practice the AC50 is relatively gutless until you get it above 2000 rpm. Others, including the guy I'm purchasing the package from, who has it in several of his own personal vehicles, say that I should expect performance at least as good as, if not superior, to what I had originally in the IC engine- stock 1496 CC engine was capable of about 66 ft-lbs of torque max at 3000 rpm and perhaps 65 hp when the engine was screaming along like a sewing machine at 5000 rpm...and it had a tendency to drop crankshaft main bearing thrust washers into the oil pan...the original Leyland engine in this car was possessed and I'm well shot of it and its 1970s British demons! 

The AC50 package price I'm being offered is right when compared against DC systems, plus I get the benefit of regenerative braking and lower maintenance vs a DC system. But am I going to regret it in performance terms?


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## crackerjackz (Jun 26, 2009)

Always Great to see another canadian ev builder  ... I bought my hoevs ac76 drive system from canev as well ... Great service couldnt have asked for more ...


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## sunworksco (Sep 8, 2008)

AC is good stuff!
Otherwise I would wait for a Nissan Leaf or Chevy Spark to hit the curb, hard, and use those drive trains.


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## Moltenmetal (Mar 20, 2014)

Hey, we Canadians need to stick together! There are fewer of us than there are Californians after all!

Yeah, I thought of chop-shopping a Volt pack from the wreckers (thought about that a LOT, as the pack is just about the right size and is really cheap!), and of building my own kit controller, and of trolling for forklift motors. But I'm taking the easy route because a) I've owned the car since 1987, b) I want it to be a reliable spring to fall daily driver, and of course need most of the English demons out of it for that to happen, and c) the fixed price of stuff I couldn't build or scrounge myself is just too high to permit me to risk having to buy any of it TWICE!

Battery pre-order has been made, and CanEV is gathering up the parts for me- will probably have a motor before I'm ready for it. Got a few "order of operations" problems to sort out in the meantime- so far it's been easy to know what was most important to do next, but I don't want to spend time taking this body tub on and off the frame too many times- and never again until it has decent floor pans as well as a solid door sill/rocker panel combination on either side. With no roof, the car relies on those parts to act together as a member to stiffen the body between supports to the frame.


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## Moltenmetal (Mar 20, 2014)

This was the car in its heyday, around 1990 or so. It had been winter driven on Ontario salted roads, then "restored" by an idiot who left the sandblasting sand in the frame and ruined the wiring harness. After much suffering with the Leyland garbage 1500 engine, I put a 1980 Celica engine and 5 speed in it- which never really fit. But what a fun car!

Last plate stickers on it are from 1996, the year I moved in with my wife. I married the girl that didn't like the car...

My 11 yr old son Jacob and I started the disassembly:









Lots of stuff to go!









Engine came out nicely:









Leaving a nice big hole!


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## Moltenmetal (Mar 20, 2014)

Car's a mess...floor pans are gone, but the frame is much better than the body:









So, the body bucket comes off the frame, with a lot of effort (more bolts than I figured...)









Lovely to have a frame to work with!









...but it too needs work...









The car was stored in my garage most of the time, but did spend a few years outside under a tarp while I was building the addition to my house. Unfortunately, squirrels or chippies found the frame a nice place to store their maple keys, walnuts etc. Fortunately, I built the addition with a nice piece of W8x18 to support the rafters at the ridge, 13 ft up. So I raised the frame and knocked the debris out by whacking it with a deadblow mallet..









About five pounds of crap came out- maple keys, rust and sandblasting sound from the previous owner's attempts at restoration. A big sponge to hold water to generate rust has been removed!


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## Moltenmetal (Mar 20, 2014)

I have poor depth perception, but can manage to weld with an auto-darkening helmet. Weld steel, that is- rust doesn't weld too well!









Not the prettiest, but solid. Every hole is patched to solid steel.









After a long period of patching, grinding, wire brushing and wiping down with solvent, we coated the entire frame with surface tolerant industrial epoxy.









Hopefully that, plus oilspray to the frame internals, will keep the rust at bay...









Batteries, motor, controller, charger etc. have all been ordered. Batteries are 12 weeks away, but the motor and transmission plate should be here in a few weeks. In the meantime, the body tub has to come back inside and will take a heck of a lot of work to get it into something approximating tolerable shape.


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## sunworksco (Sep 8, 2008)

Very nice frame restoration!


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## Moltenmetal (Mar 20, 2014)

Not so nice, but thanks! I know people who can really weld, but I'm not one of them...but it'll be solid enough. It's all solid metal now.


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## Moltenmetal (Mar 20, 2014)

Body is back on the frame. Replaced the driver's side rocker panel which comes with part of the front quarter on this car as well- it was a bear of a job, but I think it worked out OK- first time I've replaced a body panel, ever.... The passenger side just needs patching. Actually there'll be quite a bit of patching required, and not just there... Working on fabbing replacements for lower portions of the inner door sills at the moment, then I'll be ready to fab new floor pans. Replacement pans are available but at $600 for the set and the budget blown on the EV conversion parts already, I need to save a few bucks where I can! Once the sills, rockers and pans are done, I can take the body back off again and epoxy coat it from underneath. More work for my son...he seems to love painting.

Received my AC50, transmission mounting plate and coupling, controller, gauges, miniBMS parts etc. from CanEV- everything except the charger and batteries. Felt like a kid at Christmas! Batteries won't be here until late August, which is fine because it'll take me quite a while on the rest- but need the charger to do my layout.

Tossed up a bit about the cabling to use. I have some 1/0 fine stranded, 105 C 600 V oil resistant industrial cable- enough to do the whole job, and which I will definitely use for the short runs. I also have an offcut of 2/0 tec cable available for scrap value, which I could break down to give me conductors long enough to do the long front pack to back-pack runs. With an average run current expected around 200A at 96V and a peak current of 500 A, the 1/0 looks like it could handle it, and would be far easier to work with- no big splices required- so I'm leaning in that direction right now.

Also need a speedometer: the Toyota transmission came with a broken speedo cable which doesn't mate to the Triumph speedo anyway. Need to do some research- CanEV recommended an Isspro speedo which I'll have to look into- apparently uses a hall effect sensor picking up magnets you glue to the driveshaft. Fortunately the car has a plain flat wood dash, so I can do whatever layout of speedo, gauges and indicator lights that I like. Need to keep the heater controls to pass the local safety inspection- have to install a defogger/defrost heater for that reason, but plan to use an element out of a ceramic space heater as others here have done.


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## crackerjackz (Jun 26, 2009)

Pics are always fun to see  ?


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## Moltenmetal (Mar 20, 2014)

Not much to look at yet, but more pics will come soon! Getting pressure from my wife to do other things...putting in the time when I can.


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## colinrickards (Mar 6, 2012)

Looks like a nice build and good to see another Canadian builder 

Have you sourced insurance for it yet?
I'm in the planning and design stages of my build and insurance seems to be the problem.
I'm an hour and a half south of you, so if you find someone somewhat local I'd love the info 

Looking forward to more Picts.

Cheers!
Colin


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## Moltenmetal (Mar 20, 2014)

Hi Colin-

I'm told privately by another forum member that TD Meloche Monnex will insure an electric conversion, but I haven't "secured" insurance for my unfinished car yet. My hope is that a classic car insurer will take it on as their rates are really low and they're used to hotrod conversions etc. A 1930s Chrysler with a huge modern 8 cylinder engine in it (which I've seen done many times) surely should scare them more than my 50 hp electric motor? That's my theory, anyway...

We Ontarians have to stick together- I promise to let you know who insures mine, if you'll do the same!


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## colinrickards (Mar 6, 2012)

Moltenmetal said:


> Hi Colin-
> 
> I'm told privately by another forum member that TD Meloche Monnex will insure...
> We Ontarians have to stick together- I promise to let you know who insures mine, if you'll do the same!


Sounds good. For sure. When I get a contact who will give a decent quote I'll share it with everyone.
My agent at my broker gave me an alternative contact while she is on vac. My dad gave me his old Mazda 3 as we needed a second car, so I called to add it on the other day. While I had her on the line I asked about an EV conversion.
She was way more receptive than my usual agent. Asked all sorts of questions with genuine interest. She said she was looking at buying a Leaf and would let me know as she'd love to help me out.
Maybe my regular agent is just lazy or unwilling to do any extra leg work, but looks like I've got someone who's willing to help now. Hopefully it produces some good results.

I'll let you know how it works out.

Colin.


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## Moltenmetal (Mar 20, 2014)

Colin- that would be excellent- I promise to share all my info, which so far isn't so good.

TD Meloche Monnex want a fortune (comparatively) to insure the car even if it weren't an electric conversion, and flat out denied that they could ever write a policy for an electric conversion unless someone lied to them and insured it as a regular IC engine car. Funny, because the ForkenSwift guys say publicly that they were insured by Meloche, after a 3rd party safety inspection. I told the Meloche guy that, but apparently the senior under-writers he was talking to told him no. 

Recommendation both here and elsewhere is to find an independent broker and work with them- which sounds good, but I haven't used one in years. So, what I'd REALLY love to do is to reward the broker who DID take the perceived risk by insuring another person's electric conversion by giving them more business. Anyone care to name their insurer/broker? Don't want to do it publicly? Feel free to PM me-


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## neel (Apr 23, 2014)

Moltenmetal said:


> Hi Colin-
> 
> I'm told privately by another forum member that TD Meloche Monnex will insure an electric conversion, but I haven't "secured" insurance for my unfinished car yet. My hope is that a classic car insurer will take it on as their rates are really low and they're used to hotrod conversions etc. A 1930s Chrysler with a huge modern 8 cylinder engine in it (which I've seen done many times) surely should scare them more than my 50 hp electric motor? That's my theory, anyway...
> 
> We Ontarians have to stick together- I promise to let you know who insures mine, if you'll do the same!


hi,
nice to see your work...very hard work.
here are some tips for insurance.. i already inquire. to my insurance company
that was smooth...i tried to give them quote for honda Del SOL 1993 convertible.. as a sample car.

here is some tips--- hope it helps you

- don't use word " converted to electric" 
- tell them " i am using alternet fuel 100% electric"
- the word " converted " make whole definition change ..they will rip you off
- we canadian already screwed by insurance company all the time and will stay like that for ever 

in my case they give me $200/month ..apart of my driving record is more then 7 years dammm clean...no ticket at all..

my case i can't afford two car. so now i give up idea to convert
(not 100% yet) but i am thinking now for plug-in hybrid to buy 
toyota prius any model after 2004 , and add extra battery bank to run most time as an electric car for my daily commute..for long run i have built-in gasoline too....

i hope insurance related info. will help you...

good luck..


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## QuietCar (Jan 3, 2013)

long sad tale.

My car is insured by 

American Modern Home Insurance Company. 1-800-543-2644

You apply online. Fill out their forms, then wait. About 2-4 weeks for notice. 

Been with them 2 years now. Just "promised" that I was driving under 10,000 miles per year.

Also had to send in copy of title to proove I had a "main" vehicle. 

Easy, not too costly either. 

QC (I really like your car too)


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## colinrickards (Mar 6, 2012)

QuietCar said:


> long sad tale.
> 
> My car is insured by
> 
> ...


Hey QC, are you States side or in Canada?

Colin


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

neel said:


> hi,
> 
> - don't use word " converted to electric"
> - tell them " i am using alternet fuel 100% electric"
> ...


This is good advice - try and find out what they don't want to hear - and avoid it

Many years ago I got a very powerful mini insured for a reasonable sum by doing this
It's not a 3/4 race cam it's an XYZ1234 cam (part number)
The head is modified to reduce the compression ratio
The additional capacity is to increase drivability

Its based on a 1275GT (group 3) not a CooperS (group 6)

Find out what they want to hear,
Economy
Safe
Low power
Short range - low mileage

Or the better way is to move to NZ where my roadster is $250 per year


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## neel (Apr 23, 2014)

QuietCar said:


> long sad tale.
> 
> My car is insured by
> 
> ...


we are @ canada, ..unfortunately !!!
all insurance company are same....same shit wine in different bottle !!
because for DIY we mostly pick the OLD cars which most of has NO ABS/ and air bags.. and they will tell you because of this two things ..safety ratings are goes down to minimum so insurance will be high !!!
because when i ask them for sample car (HONDA DEL SOL 1993) they discuses all above things...to convince me that CDN $200/ Month is legitimate!! this is liability only....NOT full coverage....!!! ASS HOLES

they a** holes...have all options to screw the people..mostly own by politicians or under huge political support...they don't allow outsider for healthy competition..that's all 

that's the reason why we Canadian are screwed by this insu. company !!

that's why when i want to move forward to conversion ...it is not worthy for ordinary normal person (in my case) 

i still didn't give up idea (100%) but it need a home work .. other wise ..elephant sit in leaving room ....

*** Please don't get me wrong i don't want to dis-appoint any one I am sorry if anybody hurt . i read this blog everyday.. i can see people work so hard to convert and lot of moey..personally i would congratulates and cheer UP for them...but ...in canada is NOT much HOPE for DIY EV guys..thats what i see now...future could be bright..***


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## colinrickards (Mar 6, 2012)

So I have some good news! 
I just a few minutes ago got a call back from my agent and they will insure me on any vehicle I want to do providing a few things.

1) passes a vehicle safety inspection
2) registered with the province as electric
3) provide proof that it's been professionally converted

Now #3 is all semantics to me. Sounds like I'll just register a business for converting EV's, I have a technician diploma in electroncis engineering so for the books it looks good, plus if they really care to look into it I'll have a buddy who is a EE technologist and one who is an industrial electrician "on the books" and should be good. Couldn't hurt to have him sign it off as meeting Ontario Electrical standards either. All complete and it'll be done as my demo/flagship conversion. 
Professional installation done! 

They also confirmed that it will be the same price as if it was ICE.
If it want liability, sure, if I want collision, sure, just provide the price list of the components for the EV.

My agent got the confirmation from Intact Insurance.

I'll ask them if they want to become "the people" for EV insurance and if they want me to pass their name out. I mentioned that I am in a "club" aka these forums and everyone is looking for normal insurance, so they will probably be interested.

If you have a broker who has Intact have them look into it. I wouldn't contact Intact themselves as the broker/agent generally have a little more leeway.

So good news all around 

-Colin.


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## neel (Apr 23, 2014)

colinrickards said:


> So I have some good news!
> I just a few minutes ago got a call back from my agent and they will insure me on any vehicle I want to do providing a few things.
> 
> 1) passes a vehicle safety inspection
> ...


such a good news. from CANADIAN .you are good person so GOD listen you...

#3) is tricky part...this is CANADA

they want to tell you that your ICE to EV is converted by the " SHOP" who is certified by ministry to DO that JOB !! but in your case you DID it .. so you can't certify your EV conversion your own, sorry to say...but on paper who will certify your conversion ?? (this not safety inspection break/seat belt etc.)
if you already told this to your agent.. i am eager to know the answer given by him...

more over forknswift (http://forkenswift.com/) is a one canadian conversion who is officially driving on road ...try to contact ..how he got through...

good luck...and ...hope you will through every obstacle in your way...


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## colinrickards (Mar 6, 2012)

neel said:


> such a good news. from CANADIAN .you are good person so GOD listen you...
> 
> #3) is tricky part...this is CANADA
> 
> ...


I spoke to them and told them that I would have it inspected and signed off by a licensed industrial electrician if they wanted I would do that along with the regular auto safety inspection.
I also asked if they wanted it on paper from a business as a professional installation or done by me and signed off and they said as long is it passes a vehicle safety inspection and electrical inspection then it's fine. If an electrician would sign it off as any other electrical thing it would be fine. They just need it in writing from the inspector.
I will probably do it under a business anyway, with all the documentation and inspection sign off's as they said it would look a bit more "legit" to the underwriter.

They were fully on board with it once I explained the whole process, she took notes the whole way and asked a pile of questions to take to the Intact underwriter and they said no problem.

Now to just get the thing built and done so we can see if they follow through on their promise.


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## neel (Apr 23, 2014)

colinrickards said:


> I spoke to them and told them that I would have it inspected and signed off by a licensed industrial electrician if they wanted I would do that along with the regular auto safety inspection.
> I also asked if they wanted it on paper from a business as a professional installation or done by me and signed off and they said as long is it passes a vehicle safety inspection and electrical inspection then it's fine. If an electrician would sign it off as any other electrical thing it would be fine. They just need it in writing from the inspector.
> I will probably do it under a business anyway, with all the documentation and inspection sign off's as they said it would look a bit more "legit" to the underwriter.
> 
> ...


thanks for update !!! 
very happy to listen that.. i am my self millwright 433A and electrician 442A
in this case it looks easy..it looks like things are moving on right direction...
need to see you soon...driving EV on road...great job..good luck

have a nice day


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## arklan (Dec 10, 2012)

forgive my ignorance but is there a reason u cant drive the car without insurance?

here insurance costs about 450 a year, iv never insured any of my cars and iv been driving for 7 years
thats a little over $3000 which if I put in the bank instead of insurance would pay for any crash I could have
that said my cars r all from the 80s so not worth insuring


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

Hi Arklan
Where are you?
What happens if you nerf somebodies brand new Astin Martin??

I have always had third party insurance - its madness not to have it


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## colinrickards (Mar 6, 2012)

arklan said:


> forgive my ignorance but is there a reason u cant drive the car without insurance?
> 
> here insurance costs about 450 a year, iv never insured any of my cars and iv been driving for 7 years
> thats a little over $3000 which if I put in the bank instead of insurance would pay for any crash I could have
> that said my cars r all from the 80s so not worth insuring


Here in Canada you need to have insurance on a vehicle before you can even get the registration and ownership and plates from the MTO/DMV/Provincial Services Office.
You need to have liability and if you want your car covered for damages you get collision insurance on top of it.
For any EV I do it'll probably be just liability, unless I can afford some very new car or a very nice classic car.


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## Moltenmetal (Mar 20, 2014)

I check this thread daily and there was nothing- get busy for a few days and don't check, and all of a sudden there's a flood of helpful posts!

In Canada you need liability insurance to be legally on the road- and even if it weren't legally required, you'd be crazy not to have liability insurance on your car. Forget about totalling an Aston Martin- that's peanuts! What if you hit and permanently disabled a pedestrian or cyclist? It could happen to anyone, with any kind of car- just a moment's inattention or minor mechanical problem... 

I won't be taking out any comprehensive or collision insurance because I don't mind paying for my own repairs and there's little risk of it being stolen. That makes them less worried about getting an appraised value for the car etc., which makes it easier to quote insurance for.

I contacted a few people locally here and got a few more companies to try- and an e-mail quote is expected from one of them (who already insures at least one electric conversion) in the next couple of days. When it's all signed, sealed and delivered, I'll let people know who it is. The quote is reasonable since it's monthly and I won't have the car on the road in the winter.

Communication is everything: I asked for a quote to insure an alternative fueled vehicle. The KEY was to say NO to the question "Is the vehicle modified?" "Modified" is their internal code word for "street racer", which this car definitely will not be! The answer I gave to that question is 100% truthful and accurate, "No, all the safety systems- the brakes, steering, suspension, restraints, lighting, signalling and crash protection etc. are original equipment repaired and certified to good working order. The only difference is that this car is 100% electric- it has no gas engine, no gas tank, and is only capable of driving a limited distance and then only in the summer." The answer I was given was, "OK, that won't be a problem."!

Getting the car registration changed to electric at the Ministry of Transportation here is not a problem and gets you out of the Drive Clean emissions inspection- there's a process, a limited number of offices you can apply to, a form you have to fill out, and a small fee. They give you two emergency responder warning stickers to put on your car. Haven't done it myself yet, but many who have indicate it's no problem at all. 

Unlike the cheap classic car insurance I couldn't get, these guys don't put any "don't drive it to work or more than 1000 km yearly" restrictions on me either. That's good, because if I can't drive it to work, the whole project is just the expensive boondoggle my wife figures I've embarked in...

Assuming this comes through, that's the last barrier removed! Full speed ahead and damn the torpedoes!

More pics to follow, when I have more to show that's worth showing! Floor pans are cut out and in at the bending shop, so there should be more to see soon.

Thanks so much to the people on this forum, for your help and support and encouragement! I'll be leaning on you guys hard when it comes down to it!


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

_In Canada you need liability insurance to be legally on the road- and even if it weren't legally required, you'd be crazy not to have liability insurance on your car. Forget about totalling an Aston Martin- that's peanuts! What if you hit and permanently disabled a pedestrian or cyclist? It could happen to anyone, with any kind of car- just a moment's inattention or minor mechanical problem._

Here in NZ we have ACC that automatically covers all personal injuries - so it is slightly less insane not to have insurance
Still a very bad idea


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## Moltenmetal (Mar 20, 2014)

Duncan, you Kiwis are lucky [email protected] in a lot of ways...but you probably suffer in lots of others too, so I'm sure it balances out! Damn, I so much want to come visit NZ sometime- maybe I can think of my EV as offsetting the fuel needed for that flight half way around the world!

BC, Saskatchewan and Manitoba have province-run liability insurance programs. BC is loaded with EV conversions, and all three provinces have lower insurance by far than we do here in Ontario, the land of the so-called "free market". What a load of horsesh*t! The provinces pay for the primary healthcare of anyone hurt in a car accident already, and they legally mandate the insurance - they should be providing it. The private insurers can't prevent themselves from being scammed by phony rehab and accident repair claims anyway, and they pass the cost of those scams on to all of us. This is the reason insurance companies here are probably held below used car salesmen in the public esteem...

But thankfully, I found one who quoted me- or at least I HOPE so! I can't open their damned encrypted e-mail, and it's a half-hour wait for them to call me back...

I went forward on my project figuring that getting insurance for a car that didn't even really exist yet wasn't going to be easy, and it would be too easy to just give up from the get-go unless I got in there and started. But I wanted confirmation before I installed any of the EV stuff in the car- if I couldn't insure the car, I'd just sell all the stuff again or pay a restocking fee, lick my wounds and move on, and prove my wife right- that I am an idiot for having anything to do with that car...

But here's the thing: people in the blessed United States of America, home of the ambulance-chasing lawyer and renowned the world over for its litigiousness and crazy stuff done out of fear of civil liability, has THOUSANDS of EV conversions driving around on public roads all over the country! Hundreds in the Garage here, including some lovely Spitfires and MGs and TR6s... I thought, "Sure, some of them are playing fast and loose with the disclosure rules or driving without insurance, but not ALL of them!" And there are quite a few EV conversions in Canada too- some well-advertised ones such as the Steamwhistle Brewery's converted 50s delivery pickup truck. Many must have legit insurance from real companies willing to accept the perceived liability of insuring a "modified" car. In fact, it's that "modified" curseword that is insurance company code for "streetrod" and the perceived risk associated with that. The insurance company sales staff have a script they follow, and certain words make them push the eject button. They can be skillfully avoided without failing to disclose or telling a word of a lie.

And really, all this concern is for NOTHING. Properly done, an EV modification with LiFePO4 cells is a fairly minor change from an actual safety perspective, especially to an old car. The car will pass a Ministry certification- the engine, other than oil or exhaust leaks, isn't even on the list for certification. My car will have very nearly the same weight and weight distribution that it did pre-conversion, with a full tank of gas and perhaps a suitcase in the trunk. The best thing I could do for weight distribution in my car is to lose weight myself! The braking will be improved by the 200 A of regen I'll have to supplement the rear drums, with a pot on the dash to adjust it down if I find I'm locking the rear wheels in the rain etc. The suspension is unaltered. And I won't have 10 gallons of highly flammable gasoline sitting in a rusty steel tank, two feet behind me, separated from the passenger compartment by a sturdy piece of vinyl-covered 1/8" thick PRESSBOARD- that's how these cars were made, new from the factory...so nothing I'm doing is going to make it less safe!

So I took a flyer, as others did too. If this company doesn't work out for some reason, I'm confident that others will- as long as I communicate with them the right way.


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## neel (Apr 23, 2014)

yes ,
that's one i was thinking for scenario of insurance company in Ontario ..
they don't say NO...but ...not agree easily...
because till everyone don't fill their pocket ..and enough fill...because you are saving on GAS...so you commit a crime and you have to pay for it...
but don't disappoint my friend..you work such a hard on project..things will be fine...
keep it up...

because you are in Ontario. i re-thinking on conversion again. today i see one DONOR car (engine blown) for my project..but i am watching your process closely of registration and insurance ..how you make things easy...

please update your info..it will help to understand..

thanks


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## Moltenmetal (Mar 20, 2014)

RBC Insurance- I now have quote in hand, and know of at least one other who has an EV conversion on the road with them. 

Quote says nothing about the car being electric, so I called and made SURE the fact that it was an "alternative fueled electric vehicle" was recorded in their file. The guy had me on hold for five minutes and came back and said, "Yes, we do insure this car". Before I drive, I will have that in writing so they can't deny me coverage in case of an accident, nor can they claim that I didn't disclose the nature of the vehicle.

They do not insure "antique vehicles" (as I found out on that 2nd confirmatory call), and will no doubt balk if you even once use the words "conversion" or "modified"- I was very careful to avoid these trigger words. The '75 Spitfire is not considered by them to be an antique- that is confirmed.

This is probably a fluke, rather than a deliberate underwriter's decision, but legally I don't think it matters. They'd have a very hard time to walk away from a claims payment now- not that I'm planning to get this car into an accident, given that the parts and repairs will be on my own nickel!

Please do me a favour: if you do call them yourself, please DO NOT mention the make and model of my car as an example- the last thing I'd want to do is mess this up after all this work, because some adjuster's spidey senses start tingling because he gets a lot of calls for EVs all of a sudden! I'd suggest that courtesy be applied to anyone who tells you who they're insured with.


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## neel (Apr 23, 2014)

don't worry my friend...
i will only concerned with my model..in most case my donor car will be 
2001-2005 small car (chevy aveo, suzuki swift, mazda 2, toyota echo etc.)
and in previous post i also mention i may pick toyota prius and add more battery pack...to keep only ONE CAR 
that won't conflict with any of your detail...
because i don't have much auto body knowledge so i will prefer less rusty ..i will still rebuild but now like yours...

thanks for update...thanks...good luck


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## Moltenmetal (Mar 20, 2014)

OK, a few more pics:

Replaced a frame member that had been cut out to fit the big Toyota engine. This will need some minor mods to fit the AC50 with the tranny at the right elevation to keep the driveshaft as straight as possible, i.e. I should have waited before doing this...









New cupronickel brake lines and stainless brake hoses- old stuff was a mess. Kit parts, so nice to work with and minimal work, and reasonable price, but with tax and the minimum fee for brokerage, and shipping charges...fortunately found a local parts guy who has some stock of this old British stuff. One of the brake tees has a fitting nut broken off in it, so I've ordered a set of Ridgid long-rip stud extractors to hopefully get it out, with the tee soaking in penetrant in the meantime. Nobody has this tee, for three Imperial bubble flare lines, except the online guys in the US and I'm done paying those #)(@# fees if I can help it!









Life goes on, so we took the day off to go launch my son's rocket, on one of the first nice days of the spring. He's enthused, and my daughter had fun too until she stepped with her sandal in a mudpit up to the ankle...









Frame more or less done, so I wheeled the two carcasses out onto the driveway so they could go past one another. Body comes back into the shop for work- lots of work...


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## Moltenmetal (Mar 20, 2014)

few bits to remove still: starter relay, ignition coil etc. Kiddo takes care of it.









A little work underneath, then time to mate the body to the frame again to hold it solid while we restore the 


...and there were a few rotten bits....like this rocker panel.









Fast forward after a lot of work, cutting out spot welds etc., and a new rocker is fitted- local parts guy had one:


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## Moltenmetal (Mar 20, 2014)

New doorsill parts were easy enough to fabricate, using thicker steel so they don't rot out so fast next time...









Fabricating pieces was made easier with a home-made bar folder that I whipped up out of heavy angle iron at work:

















Floor pan templates made of cardboard, cut out of steel and off to a local shop to fold up for me- beyond what my bar folder can do. The originals were corrugated for stiffness, but I went again with thicker steel to compensate. Preformed pans were beyond the budget of this build- had to trade sweat for money in a few places:


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## Moltenmetal (Mar 20, 2014)

Parts came from CanEV- felt like a kid at Christmas!

Here's the AC50, with feet for scale:









Motor coupling, perfect fit in the flywheel. Guess I've got to get that ring gear off there at some point in the near future...hmm, how do you do that? Slice a bit with the angle grinder and then split with a chisel? Any advice?









Another perfect fit- transmission mounting plate. I'd rather suffer with the floor pans than struggle getting a motor mounting and coupling plate aligned, so I pushed the easy button and bought this from CanEV. Doubt I'll regret spending that money:









Controller, gauges, potbox, DC to DC converter etc. aren't much to look at that you can't see on the various websites- but here's one worth showing- the big red shiny button which I guess will need a big "PULL" label underneath it, and the disconnect it will throw:









Once the floor pans are in and various smaller holes in the body are patched up, the body has to come off one last time to be painted from underneath- then it goes back on for good, and I can install the motor and start laying out my EV parts!


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## Fatt Vette (Oct 31, 2011)

Moltenmetal said:


> Motor coupling, perfect fit in the flywheel. Guess I've got to get that ring gear off there at some point in the near future...hmm, how do you do that? Slice a bit with the angle grinder and then split with a chisel? Any advice?


That would work but if you have access to a torch, you can heat the ring and it will fall off.


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## poprock (Apr 29, 2010)

In my auto dismantler days , a good quality chisel(not chinese or indian) and one clean strike between the teeth did the trick. Sounds like cage fighting


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## Moltenmetal (Mar 20, 2014)

Could bring it in and heat it with the torch at work (no gas bottles at home- too cheap for the rentals!). With no flywheel to mount it to, the gear itself is pretty much useless to me, even though I did keep the starter motor itself. Will probably just nick it with the grinder and whack with a chisel.


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## Moltenmetal (Mar 20, 2014)

Floor pans were received yesterday and one of them is in already- feeling like a pretty decent fabricator! Hope I'm not jinxing myself on the rest!

Now that I have an insurance quote in hand, I called my primary insurer, the ones who insure my two Priuses and my home. Even though I used the same language- avoided the word "modified", told them that all the safety systems are stock etc., they will not insure the car, despite the fact that I'm told reliably by another person that they insure his electric conversion...Same with Hagerty/Silver Wheels- I know at least one replica racecar with electric drive, built from the ground up, that is insured by them, but they declined me. Guess I can give them another call and hope I get a more understanding broker on the phone this time...


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## Moltenmetal (Mar 20, 2014)

All four pans are in now, but still a fair bit of steel patching to be done. Will post pics when the body has been off the frame for underside painting and is back on the frame for good!


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## Moltenmetal (Mar 20, 2014)

Underside of the body is painted. Tomorrow it goes back on the frame for good!


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## Moltenmetal (Mar 20, 2014)

Rust holes in bad places require some fancy patch fabrication:









Cardboard templates for the floor pans:









Fast forward past lots of boring work: driver's side floor pans are in!









Stand test for flexure: the pans are thicker steel than the original, but they were corrugated for stiffness. The pans are plenty stiff though and the seat rails run fairly near the edges anyway.


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## Moltenmetal (Mar 20, 2014)

Passenger side floorpans are in!









Passenger rocker only needed patching, not full replacement:









Entire underside painted with surface-tolerant epoxy with a brush:









Time for the fun stuff! Well, there's actually still a lot of rust repair and paint and bodywork to do, but I'm bored with it! Will go back later- for now, have to get some of this EV gear installed and the rest laid out!

Here's the AC50- installing the keystock


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## Moltenmetal (Mar 20, 2014)

The motor hub slipped right on- a few taps with the soft-face hammer and it was in final position. Loktite on all five set screws:









Kiddo attaching the transmission plate- bolts sent were the perfect length- no interference with the front of the motor:









Decided to slice the ring-gear with the angle grinder- PING! It popped in two nicely:









Flywheel installed:









The flywheel is a bruiser, but I'm not machining away any of it.


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## Moltenmetal (Mar 20, 2014)

Clutch and pressure plate in position- fortunately I kept the clutch plate centring tool my dad and I made when we put the Toyota engine and transmission in this car:









Kiddo verifying clutch slave cylinder function- it took a few whacks and quite a bit of pumping out of old cruddy brake fluid to get this all working right- and nearly a can of brake cleaner to clean out the end bell of the tranny:









Motor going into rough position:









Motor in place! With an old motor mount jammed in place to hold the motor closer to centre for the timebeing. Very tempting to just put some thick rubber sheet under the beautiful motor face bracket supplied by CanEV- minor slicing and it will bolt directly to that frame tie member I replaced earlier in the build, which is immediately below- it would be a shame to have to build brackets to those two mounts on the suspension (immediately to the right and left of the motor) just to use the old motor mount rubbers. How much movement do I need this thing to be capable of? The transmission is on rubber mounts at the rear. Not great that HPEVS has their encoder wiring pass out through the front face of the motor, interfering with the mounting bracket- but I will add spacers at the bolt hole locations and tack them to the bracket so they can't rattle loose. Want to encourage airflow through this thing!









Another view:


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## Moltenmetal (Mar 20, 2014)

Got the clutch working last night- managed to remove one of the two slave cylinder bolts which broke off during disassembly, without the need to remove the tranny. Whew- that saved a few hours' work!

A few questions for the forum:

1) I know it's traditional to attach the motor to the old rubber IC engine motor mounts. But in practice, how much movement does the front motor mount have to provide? On an IC engine, the thing can buck a lot- but surely the electric motor is much smoother? It would be so easy to mount the bracket to a frame member immediately below the motor using some 1/2" or 3/4" thick rubber sheet between the foot of the bracket and the frame member...but this is not something I want to have to re-do later!

2) I've seen lots of Curtis controllers mounted horizontal, which would put the fins of the heatsink pointing downward- not a good idea. Some may have had water cooled chill plates I didn't notice. I didn't see any dissipation information for thermal design in the Curtis documentation so it's tough to size a fan for this- I don't want water cooling unless I'm forced into it, and layout will be pretty unpleasant if I have to mount the controller with fins vertical.

3) The HPEVS AC50's internal fan draws air through the motor casing, but I didn't notice anything telling me the flow direction: does it draw in through the encoder end and discharge out the face mounting end, or vice versa? I'm planning to add a fan to cool the motor better at lower speeds, but want to make sure I set it up to blow in the right direction.


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## dougingraham (Jul 26, 2011)

Moltenmetal said:


> 1) I know it's traditional to attach the motor to the old rubber IC engine motor mounts. But in practice, how much movement does the front motor mount have to provide? On an IC engine, the thing can buck a lot- but surely the electric motor is much smoother? It would be so easy to mount the bracket to a frame member immediately below the motor using some 1/2" or 3/4" thick rubber sheet between the foot of the bracket and the frame member...but this is not something I want to have to re-do later


I have a lot of torque and during hard acceleration in second I see the stick shifter move about an inch and a half which is probably around 7 to 10 degrees of rotation of the motor/transmission assembly. I chose to use the original mounts because they were designed to handle the loads and were in a convenient place for me to use. I suspect that if you don't use some sort of isolation you might end up with a lot of road noise in the passenger compartment. Up to about 30 mph the loudest sound in my car is the transmission/differential gear whine. With the ICE version of the car I can hear these things but they are mostly masked by the sound of the ICE.


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## Moltenmetal (Mar 20, 2014)

Doug, if mine twisted that much I'd fear for the failure of the rubbers....but the rubbers are from the 20R (2.2L) transmission so they're massive.

Sound transmission through the frame is one thing I hadn't thought of. The motor mounts are going to transmit far less of that than my bolted arrangement would, for sure. Almost worth doing for that reason alone. Perhaps that frame member is just there to tempt me into sin! Perfect fit, perfect elevation...so tempting!


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## dougingraham (Jul 26, 2011)

Moltenmetal said:


> Doug, if mine twisted that much I'd fear for the failure of the rubbers....but the rubbers are from the 20R (2.2L) transmission so they're massive.
> 
> Sound transmission through the frame is one thing I hadn't thought of. The motor mounts are going to transmit far less of that than my bolted arrangement would, for sure. Almost worth doing for that reason alone. Perhaps that frame member is just there to tempt me into sin! Perfect fit, perfect elevation...so tempting!


I have over 2.5 times the torque of the original ICE and it moves around a lot more than it used to. A couple of weeks after I had been driving the car I had turned everything up to 11 and was giving a demo ride. I pushed the throttle to the floor and the passenger was thrown back into his seat and then there was this loud pop and the shifter went all the way over to the right. I released the throttle and looked things over. What had happened was the left side motor mount tore in half and the motor tipped up on the right mount. A few things got hit but nothing that would hinder me from limping home. I pulled the motor mounts and replaced with ones that didn't have crumbling 30 year old rubber. Back to 11 and no more problems. Respect the torque was what I learned that day.

I have no idea if sound transmission into the frame is a good enough reason to not do what you are thinking about. I am sure there are teams of mechanical engineers at the OEM's that analyze these things. The motor will make some noise completely different from an ICE. My worry would be transmission and road noise from the tires being directly coupled into the passenger compartment.


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## poprock (Apr 29, 2010)

Hi, not only noise transmission but also vibration. Hoons in the 70's here would shoehorn a V8 into a 4cyl chassis and then fit a chain as a restraint to stop the mount being shredded(not recommended). Also gearbox extension housings snap easily. Perhaps Todd's Hotrods would have a better idea?


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

Hi Molten

Your IC motor mounts are intentionally soft to reduce low frequency movements being transferred into the car

These were the engine pulses at low rpm - 
Now you will not have to worry about the IC's bang, bang, bang

So you can safely and quietly fit much stiffer engine mounts without increasing the in cab vibrations and noise

Think about at least ten times stiffer as being a good starting point

This would help a lot of things in the car - having to have soft engine mounts for vibration isolation is a nightmare when designing a car - everything has to be able to move and wobble all over the place

It's much easier when you can mount it on some nice stiff mounts and stop it from moving
(Don't go completely solid! - still need some give)


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## Moltenmetal (Mar 20, 2014)

Thanks so much guys- I'm understanding better now. 

The more I think about it, the more sense it makes to me to mount the motor to the frame member rather than to the original mount locations. I don't have to provide for any forward/backward or axial left/right movement or rotation of the motor relative to the frame- all I have to provide is perhaps +/- 1/2 degree of axial up/down tilt (that's the limit of what the rear tranny rubber mount can move), decoupling for high frequency vibration, and some torsional "give" in both rotational directions to absorb peak torque "shocks" in the drivetrain. I think I can contrive a mount which will do that easily enough. Will have to leave room for a retrofit just in case it doesn't work to my satisfaction.


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## Moltenmetal (Mar 20, 2014)

It's a ragtop, and the tranny tunnel cover is made from pressboard with some sound insulation inside a polyethylene bag, so it's going to be noisy one way or another relative to a totally enclosed modern car. But it'll be whisper quiet whatever I do compared to the racket from that 4-banger spinning at 4,000 rpm...


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## Moltenmetal (Mar 20, 2014)

Decided to sandwich the bracket top and bottom with 1/2" thick rubber spacers. Did some quick calcs to get the area of the spacers right to give a certain amount at the max torque of the motor. Will leave room to retrofit bigger more flexible mounts if this arrangement causes trouble but I think it should work.


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## Moltenmetal (Mar 20, 2014)

Randy at CanEV put me at ease with respect to the fans- I can go horizontal with the controller if I mount a muffin fan on the back of the heat sink - the dissipation can be calculated from the controller data sheet and works out to about 240 watts average which isn't too much. Shockingly low really...The AC motors apparently don't need additional cooling for clutched installations according to Randy's experience.


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## Moltenmetal (Mar 20, 2014)

Back from a Canada Day weekend in Ottawa- all I managed to get done was a repair of the original battery box, thorough cleaning and two coats of epoxy sprayed onto the pans, firewall and flat areas the brake and clutch master cylinders and windshield wiper motor are mounted to. Wanted to get everything at least primed before I mount any if the EV controls or wiring.


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## Moltenmetal (Mar 20, 2014)

Brake and clutch master cylinders removed, two coats of epoxy on the firewall and upper surface of the floor pans, and everything back in place. A few more brake parts needed- the one bubble flare tee couldn't be salvaged. Steering column back in place, but the key ignition switch is toast so I'm going to install a 2nd key switch for the electrical system and use the steering column key only as a lock. Bought a bunch of stuff online and am having it delivered to my hotel room- on a business trip most of next week. Cuts down on freight and brokerage big time. 

Batteries come in a week or two. Excited about spending some time laying out the controller, charger, dc/DC and control box, which reminds me that I have to find a good box somewhere. The ones CanEV sells are too spendy for my budget.

Also found some nice leather Miata seats at a wreckers- the car's soft top burned, so the tops of the headrest portion of the seats are scorched. Nothing that some headrest covers can't fix- will put my wife to work on it, for money- the only way she'll do anything for this project, if I can convince her at all...


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## dougingraham (Jul 26, 2011)

Moltenmetal said:


> Also found some nice leather Miata seats at a wreckers- the car's soft top burned, so the tops of the headrest portion of the seats are scorched. Nothing that some headrest covers can't fix- will put my wife to work on it, for money- the only way she'll do anything for this project, if I can convince her at all...


This will be a non issue. Just leave it this way and after she decides this is her car she will fix it for free. Then you get to build the "good" 2nd car for yourself.


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## Moltenmetal (Mar 20, 2014)

Oh Doug, she's had a hate on for this car from the first year we met, so that's unlikely! She did come out and give me a hand pulling up the one piece of 2/0 cable through its ENT conduit run and that was special enough!


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## Moltenmetal (Mar 20, 2014)

OK a few more photos: 

Something that needed doing for the longest time- taking apart everything on the deck above the firewall, power wire brushing it all, scrubbing it with solvent, then a coat of epoxy primer with my new 2.3 mm HVLP gun- from Princess Auto for $30- Canada's answer to Harbor Freight- mecca for cheap tools. Of course the first one I got, was missing an o-ring and hence wouldn't stop the air when you let go of the trigger...

This area was rusty, but most of it was superficial. The battery box needed a new "floor pan" (lots of tin-whacking to make that!).









Floor pans got their first coat of primer too:









Brake and clutch master cylinders and brake differential switch/valve back in place- fortunately only the clutch M/C's fitting is seized, the rest came out nicely:









OK, now you miss a lot of wrestling. I had two offcuts of industrial TEC cable, each with four conductors plus a ground, each of those conductors being 600 V 90 C crosslinked insulation 2/0 heavy strand. I know people say not to use this, and the only place I'm using it is for the long runs which connect the front and rear packs together. Everything else will be spliced to some 1/0 fine strand 105 C industrial cable I can also get from work. 

I ran these main runs in 1/2" ENT flex conduit for extra protection. Here's the end of one run, which will have a 1/0 splice running up to the motor controller which I'll mount on a plate above the motor:









Once I got the hang of it, it wasn't all that hard to push a 2/0 conductor through each piece of ENT, once I figured out where the binding points were and found a way around them. But there was quite a bit of struggle until I figured it out- at the end of the evening I felt like I'd been wrestling a bear...


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## Moltenmetal (Mar 20, 2014)

A few more pictures of the main pack runs. They run alongside the frame, between the frame and the side of the floor pans. The cable/conduit is nowhere the lowest point- if the car bottoms out on anything, it'll be the frame or suspension rather than the cable/conduit. I used 3/4" EMT 1-bolt clamps to screw the ENT to the side of the frame. You can see how heavy this stuff is:









My rear pack will run on top of the hump at the front of the trunk, where the old gas tank was:









The only place the ENT runs have to jump away from the frame is where they do a 90 to go up through the floor of the trunk. They're well clear of the driveshafts at maximum downward travel- the car is up on four axle stands in this shot. There were nice ENT conduit-sized holes in the frame-body mounting members at the middle and front of the frame- I had to enlarge some a little to give a freer fit to the ENT conduit, but most allowed the ENT to slip right through.


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## Moltenmetal (Mar 20, 2014)

Got my speedometer, and for some weird reason the GM sender encoder I bought with it actually fits the Toyota transmission- what business does an SAE straight thread have on a Toyota transmission? Just like the brake lines on my Spitfire- al SAE threads and hexes and 3/16 tubing, yet every bolt on the body and suspension and engine was metric: go figure. Have to drill out the speedo cable end to mate to the GM sender which has a much smaller drive pin, but that's an easy job at work on the lathe.

Got my brake lines done- turns out the two front brake lines- one from the master, the other from the dp switch/valve, have a larger 1/2 in hex on them so you don't get confused. The master cyl has different lines intended for fron pand back brakes so it's important not to mess them up! 

Also got the emerg brake cable yoke installed under the car- got bent a bit because I didn't realize the yoke lever was mounted to the underside of the body bucket when I was lifting the body off the frame, so I jacked it back in place so it is clear of the driveshaft.

Sadly I'm down one car again- I ran a stop sign in my 08 Prius- a stop sign which was completely hidden by a tree on the boulevard...nobody was hurt, but my Prius came out of it a lot worse for wear than the Camry I hit...my car is probably a write off even though the airbags didn't deploy. The first thing to go is the thermos bottle that holds the engine coolant...Damn, I loved that car, and with 193,000 km on it, insurance isn't likely to give me what it was worth to the family in transportation.


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## Moltenmetal (Mar 20, 2014)

Started some trial layout using a piece of plywood above the motor, mounted on the tops of the two suspension mounts that the old IC engine was also mounted to. The PFC2500 charger is on the left, controller on the right, DC/DC is on the shelf above the firewall next to the aux battery (bought as a spare for the now-defunct Prius), potbox is next to it, and there's a box between the two to simulate a junction box I'll use to mount my BMS control board, the prescaler for the EV pro fuel gauge, relays and terminal strips. My ignition switch is toast so I'm going with a dash-mounted keyswitch and keeping the original just as a steering wheel lock.









Right now I have the fuse block, main contactor, current shunt and main disconnect just out roughly in front of the charger and controller. I'd like to keep the heavy wire out of the junction box, but guess I'll need some kind of enclosure for the shunt at least. Plan to cover all the terminals to make everything finger safe- I have boots for some connections, while others will be covered with polycarbonate sheet guards.

Plan is to mount the whole works onto a 1/4" thick sheet of aluminum with an aluminum angle bolted along the back edge to stiffen it up.

The controller will have its heatsink mounted immediately below, with a 12V muffin fan bolted to the heatsink- got a 5" fan for $10.

I have a lot of 12V re-wiring to do- my workmanship from 25 years ago leaves something to be desired, and there's a lot of clean-up to do in any case because a lot of stuff no longer serves a function and needs to be properly abandoned or removed.


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## Moltenmetal (Mar 20, 2014)

Had to tackle two nasty patches in the driver's side rear wheel well. Wanted to get that done before pulling the rear lights wire bundle back through that area- welding and wire insulation don't mix. Get my cells next week- excited to start wiring it all up! So much 12v wiring to do first though...


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## Baratong (Nov 29, 2012)

Moltenmetal said:


> Plan is to mount the whole works onto a 1/4" thick sheet of aluminum with an aluminum angle bolted along the back edge to stiffen it up.
> 
> The controller will have its heatsink mounted immediately below, with a 12V muffin fan bolted to the heatsink- got a 5" fan for $10.
> 
> I have a lot of 12V re-wiring to do- my workmanship from 25 years ago leaves something to be desired, and there's a lot of clean-up to do in any case because a lot of stuff no longer serves a function and needs to be properly abandoned or removed.


Your conversion is looking good! 

How much weight will you be mounting on the aluminum sheet? I imagine that much aluminum would also help act as a heat sink for the components you have mounted to it. 

I also have a box of old Lucas components that aren't needed without the ICE and am thinking of attempting to sell them off on eBay, although I've often found that effort to be more trouble than it's worth.


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## Moltenmetal (Mar 20, 2014)

I've got a differential which I might need, and a gas tank which I don't- but who wants a gas tank anyway? If you need it,you'd prefer a new one...


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## Moltenmetal (Mar 20, 2014)

The controller has a massive heat sink it have to mount below the 1/4" sheet. That plus the angle will stiffen it up sufficiently. The charger weighs a bit but the rest is light.


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## Moltenmetal (Mar 20, 2014)

Got my cells today! Very excited!

Wondering if ClintK or Baratong could make the measurement for me from the rear of the inner bumper frame ember to the hood to see if I can fit two rows of 11 cells. The closest approach will be just at the point where the outer rib of the gusset that connects to the frame part that the big rubber bumper pods attach to. Pic for reference...


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## Moltenmetal (Mar 20, 2014)

12.5" would be plenty.

Then I can fit 10 where the gas tank was and I get to preserve the entire trunk...


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## ClintK (Apr 27, 2008)

Moltenmetal said:


> Got my cells today! Very excited!
> 
> Wondering if ClintK or Baratong could make the measurement for me from the rear of the inner bumper frame ember to the hood to see if I can fit two rows of 11 cells. The closest approach will be just at the point where the outer rib of the gusset that connects to the frame part that the big rubber bumper pods attach to. Pic for reference...
> 
> View attachment 22954


Tried my best to measure it, but it looks like my car's frame around the bumper is a bit different than yours?

I've attached 5 photos:
1 Left Side - as far forward as I can slide the tape measure. I know it looks like it's 12.5", but that's the angle of the camera. It's really about 12 1/8" (or maybe 12 1/16").

2 Left Side - back a couple inches. In this picture you can tell how much the hood has curved up. It's only a few inches back from picture #1, but there is now 13.5" of clearance.

3 Left Side - looking up touching the hood. In this picture I just show what my tape measure is up again. (Yeah it looks like it's 14" of clearance because of the angle, but no, it's really about 13.5")

4 Right Side - as far forward as I can slide the tape measure. Just double checking to make sure the sides were symmetrical! Again, it looks like it's nearly 12.5", but it's really 12 1/16" to 12 1/8".

5 Right Side - back a few inches. Boy does that hood curve up!

Do those help at all? Please feel free to circle in red / draw a line to a different place you want me to measure and I'll do it!

(And for some strange reason, the forum has decided to rotate my pictures 90 degrees. It's easier to read the tape measure, but it isn't the proper orientation; rotate everything 90 degrees clockwise to reorient it properly.)


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## Baratong (Nov 29, 2012)

Moltenmetal said:


> Got my cells today! Very excited!
> 
> Wondering if ClintK or Baratong could make the measurement for me from the rear of the inner bumper frame ember to the hood to see if I can fit two rows of 11 cells. The closest approach will be just at the point where the outer rib of the gusset that connects to the frame part that the big rubber bumper pods attach to. Pic for reference...
> 
> View attachment 22954


Would love to, but I am on a business trip and won't be back until later in the week. Looks like Clint got the measurements..


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## Moltenmetal (Mar 20, 2014)

Thanks ClintK, as my dad would have said, that's close enough for the girls we go out with! 

My cells are sitting on top of a piece of around 5/16" plywood (metric stuff) and the closest corner is about 11 5/8" above the top of my frame member. The post is about 1.5" back from that and to the top of a bolt with strap under it will be perhaps 12".. But as you noted, the curvature is quite steep going back- you gain height quickly. My battery box will have the cells sitting on top of 1/8" angle and 16 ga sheet steel so I should have 1/4" or more to spare- as long as I design the box right at the interfering corners. The tubular steel brackets which serve as the hood hinges were cut and spliced to raise it to fit my 20R engine, so if I need another 1/4 or 1/2" I can provide it easily without creating a ghastly smile. So no scoop needed I think! And your car should be closest to mine.

Thanks so much for taking the time to make the measurements- it was a huge help!


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## Moltenmetal (Mar 20, 2014)

Oh and ClintK, your frame looks the same as mine- except yours still has the bumper and under-bumper mini quarter panels on it, which we removed to paint the frame. So your measurements are good enough for me to build from!


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## Moltenmetal (Mar 20, 2014)

Picked up my crispy fried Miata seats today from a wreckers- quite the trek in notorious greater Toronto Hamilton Niagara traffic. Foam and steel is all good, but they'll need seat covers for sure, not just headrest covers. Think a little trimming of the rails will have them fitting nice enough.

Hope to fab the basic frame for the front battery box at work tomorrow, and maybe to pick up some aluminum plate to mount the controller, charger and switchgear.


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## Moltenmetal (Mar 20, 2014)

All my batteries are home now, and I've partially fabricated the front and back battery boxes. Regrettably although we're quite well equipped with welders and fabricating equipment at work, I have a limited window of time to do anything in our shop, and in some ways I'm better equipped at home- less walking around to find stuff...so I'll buzz the last few pieces together with my little flux core MIG.

Also bought my sheet of aluminum plate- man that stuff is expensive! We pay way less for our extruded angles and flat bars, so I was a little shocked. And forgot to chop a piece of angle at work, so I may have to sacrifice a longer piece I have at home which I use as a straight edge. Depends what I get up to this weekend I guess.

I checked the US NEC and 90C THHW/MTW 1/0 cable is good for 260A continuous as single conductors in 30 C ambient, which is quite a bit more than my continuous draw is expected to be. The cable I have available to me is 105c rated so it can go higher still. I did the calcs and from a heat dissipation standpoint, even my peak draw of 600A is going to be ok. 2/0 is only good for 300A continuous so diminishing returns have set in. Unfortunately the lugs CanEV gave me are all for 2/0 so I'll have to swap some. Don't think substituting intermittent duty welding cable at 2/0 gauge for this beautiful industrial fine strand 1/0 just so I can use the lugs is a good idea.


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## Moltenmetal (Mar 20, 2014)

Finally some EV-related progress rather than boring rust repair!

Partially fabricated the front and back pack boxes at work. Here's the front box in place while I puzzled out how to mount it.









Because I didn't use the motor mounting boltholes for the motor, they were available and made a good solid mounting location. I sliced a piece of 3/4" thick stock and drilled and tapped it for the mounting holes.









Some angle tabs for bolts drilled and tapped into the frame to mount the front of the box solidly.









And some diagonal angles following the lines of the motor/suspension mounts to tie the conection at the rear to the top rail of the box.









That box is ready to come out to go to work for blasting and painting.


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## Moltenmetal (Mar 20, 2014)

Though I do tend to fabricate everything from scratch because that's how I grew up (fix or build rather than buy could have been the family motto), I did notice some Unistrut brackets at work which saved some labour for the mounting of my controls plate. I sliced the bends with the angle grinder so I could bend them to the right angle, then welded up the slice, coated with cold galvanizing spray and the brackets were done.









Here they are in place on top of the suspension mounts- four holes conveniently located to mount these brackets. In the background is my new steering splice coupling, so the next guy doesn't have to slice the steering shaft in half to get the column out. I hope I never need to do it again!









The lower frame of the front pack box happens to line up exactly with the auxiliary shaft on the motor. I've got 3/8" clearance from the end of the shaft to the face of the box. May cut the aux shaft back later, after the warranty runs out...









Here's my controls mounting plate. I went with 1/4" thick 5052 aluminum- there was a piece at the local Metal Supermarket which was just about the right size. All it took was a little slicing with my trusty Skilsaw. Aluminum cuts with carbide wood-cutting blades quite easily- as long as you're prepared for the noise and the spray of hot and very conductive chips.









5052 and 6061 are alloyed grades which can be tempered or otherwise strengthened. They're much stronger (~ 33-44 ksi tensile) and stiffer than annealed material (22 ksi tensile) - unless you have to weld them, in which case the temper goes in the toilet and you get the annealed strength.


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## Baratong (Nov 29, 2012)

Hey, it's looking good!

I like the way you mounted the front of the battery box to the frame with the drilled/tapped bolt holes in the frame. I've been working out my battery mounts this weekend and hadn't though of that one..

What's the thickness of your angle iron you are using for that box? (1/16th?) I've been planning on building mine with aluminum but haven't built it yet so am thinking of switching.

Paul


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## Moltenmetal (Mar 20, 2014)

This plate is stiff enough that my original plan for an aluminum angle under it to stiffen it is basically unnecessary. Unfortunately, so was one of my mounting brackets- I had to make a mount to the firewall instead for one location because it will interfere with where my controller's heat sink needs to go.

Here's the kiddo disassembling cell packs- funny that they put all this effort into assembling them into four-cell packs- will have many pounds of aluminum and stainless scrap to deal with at the end of the project.









Here's the front box populated- showing that a few places need a bit of grinding to remove excess weld penetration etc. A strap will bolt on the front once I have the hood in place and can figure out where it is safe to put it without interference. A non-metallic strap or two will go over the top as well to hold the cells down.









The rear pack box partially fabricated: I could have put 12 cells back there, and probably should have in hindsight- but it would have meant having the cells out of level in the box. 











As you can see from the check fit, I raised the whole box a bit. The middle two cells would have to bump up over a bump in the rear suspension cover, and if the whole pack is elevated to that level, the outer two cell posts will interfere with the part of the body above what was the gas tank. Damn- the gas tank filler hole is another hole I'll have to patch- the location is far from ideal to mount a charger port.

The cells load in from behind the seats. There will be a similar strap bolting on the front of this box. Uncertain about how to do the hold-down- probably a pair of non-metallic straps mounting to those side angle tabs.









Here's the pack from the trunk:









I welded two clips to the suspension tunnel,- it's good and solid and without rust. I welded nuts to the underside of the angle to bolt into. Bolting through that suspension tunnel that is a nightmare- very challenging access to reach a nut up in there!


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## Moltenmetal (Mar 20, 2014)

The angle is all 1/8" thick. Plenty strong. 1.5" for the bas, 1" for the corners and tie bars. Aluminum is great but weak if welded- thicknesses need to be double unless you can bolt it all together which takes labour and space. Can't weld aluminum at home and find it hard to weld even with a good TIG machine at work, so steel's my default.


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## Moltenmetal (Mar 20, 2014)

Pleasantly surprised to find that my Toyota 20R transmission has the same SAE straight thread on it for mounting the speedo cable as GM uses. Here is the "universal/Mopar" transmission pickup encoder sold by Intellitronix- threads right on, though there's no room for the nice watertight cable connector they supply- it interferes with my frame. And the drive pin is of different dimensions- the GM part is a square shaft while the end of my tranny cable is larger and has a tang on it. No matter- drilled out the cable end in the lathe at work and it slips onto the GM shaft nice and tight. A little Loktite and I'm away to the races!


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## Moltenmetal (Mar 20, 2014)

Managed to find 1/0 lugs locally for $1.50 each, which makes it worth using my nice industrial 1/0 cable. So I went ahead and mounted the shunt, contactor, main disconnect and charger. Painted both pack boxes, and mounted the front one. Will put the fuseblock beside the rear pack just to conserve room on the mounting plate up front. Will need to borrow the heavy cable shears and lug crimper from work so that'll have to wait a few weeks until I'm back from holiday- can't keep those tools out that long for a home project. So, will probably spend time mounting the Miata seats, doing some 12V wiring, patching holes and maybe working on the rear brakes or pulling the differential to work on its oil seals if I get ambitious. Too many tasks yet to do before this thing is anywhere near ready for a test drive- Baratong will definitely be on the road with his pristine '79 before I am...sigh...the trials and tribulations of being a cheapskate, loving a car that has never loved me back, and choosing a rusty donor as a result. Just say no!


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## Baratong (Nov 29, 2012)

You still might beat me on this! I've been sidetracked this week on a few things so haven't done much work on the car. 

I've got more circuit boards in and am building up the 'control' unit for my BMS. I should have pics of it up and running in a few days.

On the car, I haven't moved it forward much this week. I'm planning on getting the battery boxes built (finally) sometime next week.


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## Moltenmetal (Mar 20, 2014)

I'm gone for two, so you'll still be done before me! Just removed the dash and it's a total rat's nest back there- will take hours to sort it out.


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## ClintK (Apr 27, 2008)

Battery boxes looks great! Nice job fitting them where the gas tank was.

That aluminum control plate looks mighty familiar.


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## Moltenmetal (Mar 20, 2014)

Hey, credit where credit is due ClintK- I got lots of good ideas from your build!

I have both Miata seats installed- took some screwing around to make them fit but they're much more comfortable than the originals were. A raccoon got into the car somehow while it was stored outdoors and shredded them and then crapped on them, so reuse was not an option...

Laying out the components in my controls box- and noticed that the stupid EVPro prescaler instructions have a note saying " don't extend the output wires". That means I need raw pack voltage going into my cabin, which is not something I'm going to do anywhere I can avoid it. Will have to do it for the heater but not anxious to do it for a stupid instrument ...This EVPro had better be the cat's @ss given what I paid for it- $100 just for the prescaler because its max input voltage is 35 volts. If I had to do this again I think the JLD would have been a better choice.

Installed and series jumpered all of the cells but will wait until the main wiring is done before putting the mimiBMS boards on them. Had to remove the box in the back for access to it- just too tight to wire it in place safely.

Puzzling over what I should do with the layout of my dash. Right now I have three small round gauges which will replace the original oil pressure, fuel and temp gauges in the centre console- the Curtis display, an ammeter and the EVPro battery gauge. I've got to redo the wooden dash as my original plywood has delaminated itself, so I can do whatever I like. I have an Intellitronix speedo which will fit the original 3 3/8" speedo hole. Using the old tach will look dumb now, as would putting a small gauge there, so I may buy an Intellitronix tach and put it in the tach hole. I know I can probably set the Curtis to tell me motor speed, but having the tach there will look cool if the two displays match. Will have to Frankenstein a set of magnets and Hall effect switch encoder for it though as there isn't room to mount anything on the end of the motor aux shaft, being too close to the battery box. I suspect the ammeter is the info most useful for driving but don't think I can get that in the size and type of display I want- and I already have the small one. Which gauge do you experienced EV drivers keep your eye on the most? I doubt I'll be challenging my pack for range very often so the EVPro may only get the corner of my eye on my commute.

Dash wiring was a real rat's nest- will have to spend many an hour neatening things up and removing unnecessary wires before running any of the new stuff behind the dash. I did use some heat shrink 25 years ago but there's also 30+ yr old vinyl tape in there that has given up the ghost. Lots of rework...


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## Moltenmetal (Mar 20, 2014)

Kiddo wiring the front pack- not planning to install the minBMS boards until we're a little further along to avoid damage. Note the tape on each post as he progresses, and the caps left on all the cells until just before he puts the straps on- we did this from the get-go. Despite these precautions, he did manage to make contact with the end of the ratchet onto one of the posts across the other side of the pack. No harm done- just a very brief touch leading to a small arc, and no shock- but a good reminder to be SAFE while you're doing this work! I took over after that, but was planning to take over anyway once he got above 48 V.









A 50 W 120 V GU10 bulb running off the front pack, just for fun.









Kiddo tries out the new Miata driver's seat:









1990s Miatas aren't all the plentiful in the wreckers' around here- these were the best seats I could find within 200 km drive on this side of the border. Leather, and the rust is superficial:









The seat rails have angled mounting holes and alignment pins, and one side has a big plate to mount the seatbelt clip receiver. More angle grinder surgery...


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## Moltenmetal (Mar 20, 2014)

After wire brushing, applying zinc-rich primer, slicing, bending and re-mounting the rails...









Seats look pretty classy from here...









But not so much from behind...crispy from the fire that burned the ragtop off this particular Miata. Minimal damage though- hopefully I can sweet-talk my wife into doing this repair for me- well within her skills, if the hatred of this car wasn't in the way!









Then there's the rat's nest of wiring under the dash. Got the tach and speedo out and removed the old 3-gauge cluster from the middle console. Clipped all the wireties and pulled free most of the unused wiring, but still there's lots to do- hours and hours worth actually to do it right. I repaired quite a bit when I was in uni and first bought the car, but the previous owner had really made a royal mess of things when he took the body bucket off to sandblast and paint it.


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## Moltenmetal (Mar 20, 2014)

So here's where it will sit for a bit while I take a bit of a vacation from this project: here's the pack and control plate.









Here's what the control plate looks like, with the shunt, contactor, disconnect, charger and controller mounted and the 2/0 lugs replaced with 1/0 lugs for my industrial finestrand cable- will wire that when I'm back at this again. The controller has the heatsink with fan mounted below it, which has plenty of clearance from the motor and suspension where it is positioned. Still puzzling over the position of the inertial switch, EV Pro prescaler and a few other bits and pieces. The nice black JB I got from work was missing a backplane so I made one and am starting to think about its layout. I think there'll be enough room, but would love more for some Panduit etc. to make it look more professional. Will have to mount my fuseblock on the lid- not ideal, but manageable if I'm careful about the wiring. Everywhere else is inaccessible to see the LEDs and replace fuses unless I hinge the thing. 

I'll also have a few high voltage fuses for the pack connections- those need to be separate as they'll blow the hell out of the LEDs in the automotive fuseblock I bought if I were to blow a fuse!

The main negative pack post will be the bottom-most post of the shunt. The positive wiring runs from the front pack through the main disconnect then the contactor to the controller. Will contrive a cover for the shunt later.









Here's my middle console (damaged beyond repair of course) and the three gauges I have to mount in the place of the original fuel, oil pressure and temperature gauges: CanEV's analog -200/+500 A ammeter, the EV Pro gauge, and the Curtis controller's display. For the moment the plan is to buy an Intellitronix tach to go with the blue LED analog + digital speedo I bought, but I'm open to suggestions!









I'm following the schematic provided as part of the package by CanEV for the most part, so I have a good roadmap. The wiring harness provided with the Curtis controller is fairly intimdating, but I think many of the wires are going nowhere in my build. Will run them inside the JB just in case I need access to them later.

Chime in if I'm doing something wrong, folks- I want this thing to be done right rather than just "my way"! I'll make up my own mind but I'm grateful for advice, even advice I don't agree with. This is my first build after all, and it's all about learning.


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## Moltenmetal (Mar 20, 2014)

Back home from a great holiday, and back at the car again, but with multiple distractions so it's going a little slower now...

I've finally combed through that rat's nest under the dash, chopped out most of the useless wiring, and have bought a new keyed ignition switch to replace the original with- I'll dash mount it and leave the original mechanism without switch just for the keyed steering lock it provides. Two separate keys, a bit of a nuisance, but replacing the whole works is more bother and cost given how much re-wiring I need to do anyway- not worth it in my mind.

Still have to buy a tach I guess- for aesthetics on the dash layout alone really, so the practical guy in me is still screaming at me about how stupid that is, so I haven't done it yet. But I only want to be behind that dash once, so I'd better get a move on!

Borrowing the shears and crimpers tonight for the heavy wiring- will do that just for fun although the 12V wiring will be more work and will waste more braincells.


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## 67BGTEV (Nov 1, 2013)

Nice blog and conversion, MM. I installed Miata seats and is worked well for me. 
I'm also thinking of my dashboard. I have the spyglass from curtis (same as what you have) and I need to decide on others.


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## dladd (Jun 1, 2011)

just read through your build, love it! Quality time in the garage with your kid on a project that the wife hates, sounds familiar, lol.

My .02 on motor mounts (from a few pages back). What I have observed is that the electric motor produces much more torque than the original gas engine (even with a mild motor/controller combo), and the stock mounts aren't really up to the task. I've had a mixture of stock mounts and custom deals in my car and had problems with them all.  

I solid mounted my motor for a brief time right after tearing some custom made mounts apart some time ago, and the difference was significant. It held just fine, but there was a lot more noise. I didn't really feel any vibrations, but it hummed or buzzed real bad. I went back to rubber mounting via the stock mounts.

My motor is pretty secure these days, but I feel there is too much movement still. I plan to goop up the stock upper motor and lower trans mounts with a liquid urethane one of these days to stiffen them.

Anyway, I think your idea of mounting directly through a rubber pad is a good one, more rigid than a flexy flier ICE mount, but some damping for sound transmission through the frame.


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## Baratong (Nov 29, 2012)

Hey good to see you back at it! I'm anxious to see how it all turns out.
My Spit is on hold a bit as I'm on a business trip this whole week in Toronto(!)

Paul


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## Moltenmetal (Mar 20, 2014)

Toronto? You should PM me and come by!


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## Baratong (Nov 29, 2012)

I would love to, unfortunately I'm flying out in the morning for home. I've been in North York since Monday working with a new client. Made it downtown last night to look around a bit. Gotta say I like it here! Don't think I'd like the winter though.


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## Moltenmetal (Mar 20, 2014)

Damn, you should have told me sooner- you were probably just down the street from my place! Next time you have to visit your new customer, PM me!

Toronto's amazing, but unfortunately it has infrastructure suited for a city maybe half its present size. The transition the place has gone through since the 1950s has been unbelievable, and really positive in many ways, but traffic here SUCKS. We have the unfortunate honour of having the busiest highway in North America- hwy 401. Busier even than infamous stretches of freeway in LA.


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## Moltenmetal (Mar 20, 2014)

Done the easy (heavy) wiring. Now for the harder stuff...

Spent some quality time with CanEV's schematic today, breaking it down circuit by circuit to 1-line diagrams to understand them. Definitely a good idea, and definitely questions for Randy next week. The wiring harness has a lot of unnecessary wires (connected to pins/features of the Curtis that I won't need), but some things are dead easy- the connections to the Spyglass display and to the motor encoder/temperature sensor are already done for me.

Puzzled by the E Expert Pro gauge and especially by its expensive little prescaler. The prescaler's 1 pager says this puzzling thing:

"Make absolutely sure that before connecting the battery to the prescaler, all prescaler output wires are correctly connected with the battery monitor. The brown output wire voltage is approximately 15-20 vdc and the white output wire is directly connected to the battery positive terminal via approx. 194 kohm. The prescaler is not galvanically isolated."

WTF? Sure, it's isolated from the 12V system, but couldn't I have done what this thing is doing simply with a pair of resistors to act as pack voltage divider, and another voltage divider plus say a 7812 to power the EE Pro? What exactly does this thing do for me for $100?

Oh, and the EE Pro datasheet shows a dumb-ass connection between the aux battery minus connection (i.e. chassis ground) and the neg connection of the shunt, so you can use the gauge's Va terminal to monitor the aux battery's voltage. Nope, won't be doing that- all the high voltage, both + and minus side, is totally isolated from chassis ground and it's going to stay that way! I'll buy a panelmeter for $5 if I'm worried about the aux battery voltage.


Both the DC/DC's datasheet and CanEV's schematic omit fuses on both the input and output side of the DC/DC converter. Any reason for that you guys can think of? I figure these fuses are a good idea, even though of course all the 12VDC users will be individually fused- I'd hate to see a short in the battery itself fry the expensive DC/DC.


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## dougingraham (Jul 26, 2011)

Moltenmetal said:


> Both the DC/DC's datasheet and CanEV's schematic omit fuses on both the input and output side of the DC/DC converter. Any reason for that you guys can think of? I figure these fuses are a good idea, even though of course all the 12VDC users will be individually fused- I'd hate to see a short in the battery itself fry the expensive DC/DC.


In reality every connection to a battery should be fused (or current limited) to protect against a wiring short. To something like a DC/DC converter you can probably get by with fusing just one side if the wire runs are short and not parallel but fusing both leads would be best practice. (For full disclosure I only fuse the positive to my DC/DC). The problem is inrush current. A 10 amp fast blow pops immediately but a 20 A slow is fine. At full load my DC/DC should pull at most 6 amps. But the inrush current is higher. A precharge would solve this. Perhaps they left off the fusing because of precharge issues. On the output side you might not need one. If the wires are heavy enough that they are rated higher than the current limit of the DC-DC then is not much chance of a fire. I paralleled my DC-DC with the buffer battery and then fused the output of that with the car's original fusible links. A more modern fuse might be a good idea though.

The DC-DC should current limit and a short should not take it out. And a short of that magnitude will be noticed because most stuff in the car will quit working. A more likely problem would be that the DC-DC fails and shorts the buffer battery. Fuses cannot operate fast enough to protect the electronics. They are there to protect against a wiring short so should be sized to defend the wire, not the device.


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## ClintK (Apr 27, 2008)

I have a fuse on my 300W DC-DC converter. I kept blowing 5A fuses during hard acceleration (200 or 300+ Amps), which I've attributed to the DC-DC being inefficient and voltage drop (wish I had a voltmeter in the car...).

I recommend a higher amp fuse than you would normally consider. My 10A fuse for 300W converter hasn't blown once.

Edit: I have a single 10A fuse on the POSITIVE 96V side and a single 30A (give or take) fuse on the POSITIVE 12V side.


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## Moltenmetal (Mar 20, 2014)

Thanks Doug and ClintK. I'm fusing both sides of the DC/DC with fuses selected to protect the wires based on your advice. A single wire comes in from my +B and will supply the heater, DC/DC and EE Pro prescaler, each of which is fused independently with glass fuse holders rather than automotive blade type fuses so there's no confusion between high voltage and the auto 12V system. Guess the inrush makes fusing impractical for protecting the DC/DC itself, because although the unit I bought from CanEV isn't as sketchy as some I've seen advertised, these seem to be a frequent failure point from reading threads here. My aux battery will get me to work and probably back again so no huge worry.

I've got all my relays, potbox, terminal strips and fuses, BMS header board, J1772 board, inertial switch etc. mounted in my JB. I combed through the Curtis wiring harness to label and separate the half of the wires I'll be using or may use from the ones I won't need- that took a while...I found a routing which isn't the shortest but keeps the wires at a distance from pack and motor leads without running parallel to them. Doing the heavy wiring first was the right decision for sure. I'm maybe 15% done with connections on the EV side and 0% on redoing the car 12V, so I'm going to be at this a while.

The bleeder on the rear driver's side brake is not going to come loose willingly. Think the rear brakes are going to take some effort...getting this thing out for a test drive in the fall may be tough but is still the goal.


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## dougingraham (Jul 26, 2011)

ClintK said:


> I have a fuse on my 300W DC-DC converter. I kept blowing 5A fuses during hard acceleration (200 or 300+ Amps), which I've attributed to the DC-DC being inefficient and voltage drop (wish I had a voltmeter in the car...).


What probably causes this is the traction pack sag under hard acceleration. When the motor controller turns on the battery voltage sags and the input filter caps struggle heroically to prop up the traction pack. Because the pack voltage drops there is an increase in current draw from the traction pack to maintain the output voltage when the motor controller switches off. The fuse is in the way so sees the inrush current when the motor controller turns off and the traction pack bounces back and sees the reverse current when the DC-DC tries to back feed the traction pack when the motor controller is turned on.

If the DC-DC is just a power supply that has been repurposed in an EV it will have a full wave bridge rectifier on the input and this will prevent the input filter caps from back feeding the traction pack. There will still be an inrush to recharge the input caps every time the motor controller turns off. It is this situation where the addition of an inductor on the input to the DC-DC resolves the problem.

If you want to know the efficiency of your DC-DC you need to measure the input voltage and current and multiply those together giving the input power. Then measure the output voltage and current and multiply those together giving the output power. 100 * (output power / input power) will give the DC-DC efficiency at that particular load. It will vary depending on the load. Light loads will usually have the poorest efficiency (unloaded will be worse but is a nearly useless number as it will be 0% efficient). I would be surprised if it was not better than 90% efficient at your typical loads when driving.


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## dougingraham (Jul 26, 2011)

Moltenmetal said:


> The bleeder on the rear driver's side brake is not going to come loose willingly. Think the rear brakes are going to take some effort...getting this thing out for a test drive in the fall may be tough but is still the goal.


I have something like 11 different penetrating oils. The one I like best is the Sea Foam brand. If you can find a deep well six point socket that fits the bleeder use that. A low power impact device will often do the trick. You will get suggestions to use heat to help unstick it. Heat and brake fluid can be a problem so take care if you use this approach. 

You could also throw the brake assembly into a bucket of Evaporust for a week or two. The downside of using Evaporust is if you have any OCD tendencies you wish you had a swimming pool full so you could dip the whole car.


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## dladd (Jun 1, 2011)

Moltenmetal said:


> Thanks Doug and ClintK. I'm fusing both sides of the DC/DC with fuses selected to protect the wires based on your advice. A single wire comes in from my +B and will supply the heater, DC/DC and EE Pro prescaler, each of which is fused independently with glass fuse holders rather than automotive blade type fuses so there's no confusion between high voltage and the auto 12V system.


What glass fuses are you going to use? In my looking around when I was setting up my high voltage wiring stuff, the glass fuses were not rated for high DC voltages. I ended up using these.


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## Moltenmetal (Mar 20, 2014)

There are lots of fuses that fit the glass cylindrical fuse holders. I haven't checked the voltage rating- not even sure how it matters unless perhaps on the really low current ones. My pack is only 32 cells series (102V) so I don't think I'll have much to worry about.


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## Moltenmetal (Mar 20, 2014)

If the passenger side front caliper bleeder is any indication, this will be no picnic. I snapped it off and had to extract it, which there was room to do The rear bleeder would be lots more work to remove if I snap it off- would involve removing the wheel cylinder from the car for sure.

I have some Lloyd's rust remover which I read somewhere was urea phosphate. Worked well enough on the fasteners I used it on, and pretty quick too. But it won't penetrate a fused threaded part I'm afraid. Don't think I can fit an impact gun in there either so the wheel cyl may have to come off regardless.

Had a good solid day of wiring in the JB today. Got the DC/DC wires done, potbox connected to the throttle cable and controller, and most of the key switch interlock circuit wired, one side of the prescaler connected etc. The kid was bored so I got him to help me solder jumpers, cut and strip wire etc. He's getting some learning out of this even in the parts where I can't have him too hands-on.


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## Moltenmetal (Mar 20, 2014)

Aside from the BMS cell boards and loop, the EV wiring is done. Now I need a dashboard and to knuckle down and finish, or at least start, re-wiring the 12V system of the original car...

Broke down and ordered the Intellitronix tach. $105 for the unit, $40 shipping, tax and brokerage...and it's back-ordered. Would have been free shipping in the US. Sometimes it sucks to be Canadian...So I added a voltage gauge for my 12v system as it added no more of these extra charges. No idea where I'll put it, but figured it will let me keep an eye on the DC/DC. An ammeter might have been useful too I guess- will check if they have one.

Any suggestions on order of commissioning and testing to minimize the risk of blowing something up? I mean the order in which I should put in fuses, what I should not power up before something else etc? I'm doing the obvious- checking the wiring twice, checking the schematic against the individual docs from each of the manufacturers, etc. Was thinking to test the 12v with the controller unplugged, then to bring up the DC/DC as the first thing powered by the pack. Have to go back and read the miniBMS doc as it cautions not to make the last connection in the cell alarm loop with the pack connected, but otherwise can't think of anything which needs to be unpowered or which will blow up if it is back- fed etc.

Got to remember to get some rubber tape from work for my wire splices, as they are of a geometry impossible to protect with heat shrink.


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## Moltenmetal (Mar 20, 2014)

Lots of work without much to look at, but here are a few


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## Moltenmetal (Mar 20, 2014)

From the other direction, with the cover of the JB back on. Wires will be neatened up and put in split loom or wire tied neatly once the continuity and basic functional testing is done.


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## Moltenmetal (Mar 20, 2014)

I'll be back at it this weekend, though work and the rest of my life is getting in the way! BMS boards and loop, putting the packs in place and hopefully a test spin of the motor if all goes well, but no way I'll be driving any time soon- the dash alone as well as the old 12v wiring after the dash is together will take quite a while yet...


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## Moltenmetal (Mar 20, 2014)

BMS lights are all winking happily on top of the cells. Wires to fish for the connection of the BMS alarm loop between the front and back pack, a little more careful inspection and checking of the wiring, installing fuses, neatening things up, and a few connections to the pack and aux battery, and I should be able to try turning the motor!


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## Ivansgarage (Sep 3, 2011)

ATF and acètone are the best for rusted bolts 50 50 mix.


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## Moltenmetal (Mar 20, 2014)

Sounds reasonable, though ATF is just hydraulic oil right? The stuff I use most of the time is basically just diesel in solvent in a spray can.

Did nice heat shrink on all my main wires, tightened everything, and connected the rear pack. Way too tight back there to work- you needs to unbolt the pack and slide it forward to get at the BMS celltop boards or the bolts. Glad I didn't try to squeeze 12 cells back there as it's already tough. Will rubber cement some rubber sheet to the underside of the steel above where the gas tank was to reduce the risk of short circuits when moving the assembled pack around.


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## Moltenmetal (Mar 20, 2014)

Well, I wired up my keyswitch, then powered everything up, fuse by fuse. Everything went great- my latching relay operating off the start momentary contact worked, the BMS works etc. so I wired up the last connection on the pack through a 30A fuse and tried it out. The Curtis controller powered up, closed the contactor, and gives me the blinking yellow single "everything's ok" LED, and the spyglass display shows me valid parameter values. My keyswitch interlock with the inertial switch and charger feedback etc. works fine too. I read pack voltage at pin 1. So everything looks good.

So, I moved the potbox throttle and no joy- no motor movement. No smoke or blown fuses either, but no joy. So I go back over CanEV's wiring diagram and notice that pin 22, the Forward input, is supposed to be connected to the controller logic 12V...it is shown as if this connection is already made in the wiring harness, like some of the connections for the spyglass and the encoder/motor temperature cable are done already for you, but it wasn't. Also found that one of my pot connections was bad. Fixed those problems, but still no joy...guess I'll be on the phone to Randy tomorrow for some help. Wonder if it's set for a three wire throttle or some other programming setting is wrong? Not sure yet how to even talk to this thing. 

Still haven't commissioned my DC/DC or my charger or EEPro gauge, but I will get to that all step by step, fuse by fuse. Slow and careful makes fewer mistakes that let the magic smoke escape from the expensive components!


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## Moltenmetal (Mar 20, 2014)

SUCCESS!!!

Throttle pot type setting was wrong, and I had the pot low and high reversed, and I outwitted myself and miswired the switch on the throttle interlock that I originally wired correctly. Feeling dumb, but proud that the wheels are finally turning with electricity! 

EV grin a mile wide- and the car's still up on axle stands!

Now there's a whole bunch of other wiring to commission- charger, DC/DC etc., a dash to build, brakes and seat belts to fix, and a half a car's worth of 12V DC to wire...so much left to do before I can take it for a spin around the block!


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## 67BGTEV (Nov 1, 2013)

Congrats!!! This phase is the most interesting one for me. Wiring was most boring stuff for me. 
Figuring out which dc-dc converter, charger was a good phase for me. I hated wiring and 12V rewiring.


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## Moltenmetal (Mar 20, 2014)

Thanks! But wiring was positively entertaining compared with rust repair and extracting broken off rusty fasteners...you dry and warm territory folks don't know what you're missing 'till you tackle a victim of Ontario road salt!


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## 67BGTEV (Nov 1, 2013)

Glad to live in this part of the world. 
When I bought my BGT, I was careful to pick a rust free one.


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## Moltenmetal (Mar 20, 2014)

Comissioned my charger this evening- working great. Tested the don't drive off while charging interlock- working too. Just the BMS high cell interlock on the charger to test yet while I monitor the first full charge. So that's the EV portion of the construction essentially done. Let the rebuilding of the rest of the car commence! 

Have to look at some material for a new dashboard tomorrow, as my tach has arrived. Time to start wiring up the dash and lights etc.

I had a 30A fuse in my pack as a safety precaution during testing. Blew that tonight, not with a short or excessive motor current, but by taking my foot completely off the accelerator when I had the drivetrain up to some decent speed, not thinking... Watched the EEPro show me regen current being dumped back into the pack, and then pow- the fuse went. So I know this puppy can regen! Pack is fully connected with the big fuse in place now mid- pack.


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## Moltenmetal (Mar 20, 2014)

Bought some lovely teak-veneered marine grade plywood for the dash. Just pondering my layout a little further. Going to ditch a few of the original Spitfire controls since I'm re-wiring everything anyway- the stuff was dodgy to begin with- particularly the light switch. And I bought a voltmeter for my 12V system too, so I have to find a place to put it that makes visual and functional sense. 

Would like to have my ammeter in a prominent position because I think I'll use it a lot. The tach is right next to the speedo and the same style of gauge, and there's a hole in the steel behind the dash to the left of the speedo which will fit my ammeter, which of course looks totally different being the only analog gauge left. That would leave the three holes in the centre console for my EE Pro, Curtis Spyglass and the 12V system voltmeter. Will look a little odd but should do the trick.

The other option is to keep the ammeter in the 3-gauge cluster in the centre console like originally planned, and put the voltmeter in another hole which is located way over on the passenger side of the car. Probably intended for a dashboard clock etc. Think I like the 1st option better.

Will have a few indicators for various things- hazards, high beams, plus a light for the EE Pro's alarm, one to go with the BMS low voltage buzzer etc. The original indicator lights will be replaced with LEDs. The goal is to get rid of all the unreliable filament bulbs eventually, though that may be very tough with the original round sealed beam headlights. 

I do need an interlock with at least a light and probably a buzzer too, to remind me to pull the hand brake- thanks to this forum, I woke up and realized that I'll need to actually USE the hand brake every time I park, given that there is neither an auto transmission parking pawl nor any cylinder drag like on a car with a manual transmission- I've virtually NEVER used my hand brake before! 

Still thinking about having front and back pack Hart LED bridges- cheap insurance. 

Looks like my original hope, to have the regenerative braking happen in two stages with 100 A coming on as you back off on the accelerator and another adjustable amount coming on when taking the slack off the brake pedal, will take too much screwing around and programming to implement. Think I'll stick with the existing setting, with none of it on the brake pedal, and see how I like driving it that way first. I'll need to watch the ammeter to coast, hence the desire to have it within easy eyeline.


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## Moltenmetal (Mar 20, 2014)

Putting coat after coat of tung oil on that teak veneer dash, with a day between each to cure. Spending my evening unwind time charging the pack while I wire the old car back together. Pack voltage is rising very slowly as I'm charging on 120vac. Good, as I need to be there when the BMS drops the charger out so I can verify that critical function, and so I know which cell tops out first.

Tonight I knocked off early after a solid hour spent fighting with light sockets in the trunk- the fricking Lucas Prince of Darkness made every part from multiple dissimilar metals that have corroded themselves into electrical flakiness- takes lots of time to fix each bulb so it works. According to a former TR6 owner in the neighbourhood, Lucas is an acronym for loose unreliable connections and splices...

Got a dash layout that I think I'm going to like, with the ammeter nestled between the speedo and tach in clear view. Tach implementation will come later as the Curtis spyglass gives me motor speed already.

Decided too late to abandon the old heater and fan assembly- the heater core is a split deal that will be impractical to replace with electrical elements. So I have made a dash with some space taken up by dead heater and vent controls. Oh well, I can change that centre console later to delete that stuff again if it really bothers me.


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## Moltenmetal (Mar 20, 2014)

1st charge is complete, or nearly so. BMS interlock works fine. Pack isn't 100% top balanced- four of the cells come up to BMS trip limit voltage first. I just realized that I'm going to have to pull the rear pack out (again...) to get access to the individual cells to pull down the ones that top out first. What I think I might do is bring out a wire from between each cell to a terminal strip in an accessible location so I can attach my Lee Hart bridge wires and to permit troubleshooting/balancing with the pack in place. No such probs with the front pack, which is 100% accessible.

My main instrument cluster is wired and in the vehicle, with the manual throw for the main disconnect etc. all in place. Heavy bruiser of a cable, but it reliably allows you to open and close that disconnect with ease from the cab. I wired the dash on the bench, putting spade or bullet lugs on everything so you can pull each instrument now without resorting to the side-cutters. Now I need to spend some quality time on my back, reconnecting the various spade lugs that had to come apart because the various instruments are in their own holes in the metal plate that supports the dash. Then it's on to the centre console.

Then it's on to the brakes...I've been dreading tackling those rear drums! Might just pick up a couple of wheel cylinders and be done with it, depending on local availability and cost.


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## Moltenmetal (Mar 20, 2014)

Called about wheel cylinders- out of stock, but available in a few days. $30 each. Wow- if I'd called earlier, the old ones would already be out and in the garbage! Forget about the bleeders- they will go in the garbage with the cylinders!


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## ClintK (Apr 27, 2008)

Moltenmetal said:


> My main instrument cluster is wired and in the vehicle, with the manual throw for the main disconnect etc. all in place. Heavy bruiser of a cable, but it reliably allows you to open and close that disconnect with ease from the cab.


Picture please! I want to see how you implemented that. I've got a handy pull cable at my lower left (where most cars have the emergency brake release) that flips the main pack circuit breaker.



Moltenmetal said:


> I've been dreading tackling those rear drums!


Yeah... you know my experience with those.


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## Moltenmetal (Mar 20, 2014)

Will post pics once I have the dash in place at least- things are pretty gnarly looking right at the moment! Labellng etc. will come later but I should have the centre console in place in the next few days. 

Definitely going to wire all the inter-cell junctions in the rear pack to an accessible location so I can measure voltages cell by cell and shunt or drain individual cells during my initial top balance, without having to pull the pack out- or cutting an access hatch in one of the few perfectly intact original pieces of the car! Need to do this anyway to implement my Lee Hart bridge for the rear pack.

Just picked up some GT6 wheel cylinders- they have a slightly different bore but apparently fit just fine. Will find that out this weekend, hopefully...or maybe not! One of my other passions (woodworking) is calling- a friend a couple doors down had five ash trees die in his backyard- the emerald ash borer is wreaking havoc on Toronto's tree canopy right now. He had them felled rather than just chopped up into firewood, and we're bringing in a portable sawmill to saw them into rough lumber. Would have been a real shame to see this beautiful material wasted, but unfortunately the tree service guys left us with seven or eight very heavy logs piled on top of one another at random like matchsticks, and we have no heavy equipment to move them (nor is it worthwhile financially to rent any for this job). Hopefully some of my dad's backwoods millwrighting skills have rubbed off and we can find a way to get these things closer to orderly so the mill can process them without too much bother. The trick is, I don't want to buck the logs into smaller pieces before we run the magnetometer over them to find any embedded steel that will ruin the mill's blades...


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## Moltenmetal (Mar 20, 2014)

Pic of two of the three dash sections installed. Everything is as pre-wired as possible with long pigtails that have to be trimmed back and the final connections made from under the dash, hence the rat's nest under there is temporary. Should get cleaned up shortly after the last section which has only the windshield wiper and washer controls and accessory socket in it to mount and wire.


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## Moltenmetal (Mar 20, 2014)

Close up of central dash console from driver's seat. Steering wheel obscures some things like the keyswitch and headlight controls. But I like the ammeter nestled between the speedo and tach- think it will be pretty useful that way.


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## Moltenmetal (Mar 20, 2014)

Funny how the preview is upside down, but when you click to zoom in, the pic is right side up. WYSINWYG...









Closer pic showing my pretty curly teak grain. Gauge to the left is my 12V voltmeter, and LEDs in the middle are front and back Lee Hart bridges. When my pack goes bad, I'll see it in technicolour...


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## Moltenmetal (Mar 20, 2014)

Per ClintK's request, here's my emergency disconnect cable arrangement. The cable centre is a solid wire. Again courtesy of CanEV- heavy, but works like a charm for both off and on, no springs required.


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## Moltenmetal (Mar 20, 2014)

Clearer view of the big red shiny knob, within easy reach of the driver's side window.


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## Moltenmetal (Mar 20, 2014)

Hmm, the one dash picture is right side up on my iPad when I post and when I click on it to zoom in, but not here on my Windows machine. Weird... oh well, you get the idea.


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## Moltenmetal (Mar 20, 2014)

Dash is done, all except the quality time on my back reconnecting everything. Tomorrow, on to brakes. 

Saw milling is postponed due to weather so I get to spend a little more time on the project. Logs are all lined up for the guy but some will be a bear to move to the saw...


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## Moltenmetal (Mar 20, 2014)

Saw milling all day today- couldn't have gone more smoothly! The mill this guy brought was incredible. It was a long exhausting day but I have probably 1000 bf of ash sawn mostly in 1" with about 1/3 of it in 2" slabs, all in a stickered pile. A year from now I will have plenty of material to complete the woodworking projects I've been putting off to complete the car!

Brakes came apart yesterday- need adjuster assemblies and wheel cyls, as all parts with steel to aluminum junctions in them are corroded beyond repair. But the drums, shoes and springs are all fine- brakes will hopefully be ready by the weekend. Hmm, could I test drive the car yet this fall? Maybe!


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## Moltenmetal (Mar 20, 2014)

No brake parts this weekend, but lots else to do. Nervous about putting the hood back on- hope it all fits under there! Bumpers, wiring...lots to reassemble before I can even test drive the thing!


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## Moltenmetal (Mar 20, 2014)

Brake lights, turn signals, reversing lights and emergency flashers are all working. Dash lights up nicely. More to do but nothing that will make a test drive unsafe.

Dragged the hood in and realized that I will need to do some surgery on my front inner fenders- they collide with stuff on both sides of the control plate. Definitely not interested in moving things on the control plate now... If I do the changes right, I should actually improve the water deflection away from my EV parts compared with what the fenders originally would have done for me.


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## Moltenmetal (Mar 20, 2014)

A little more slicing required, but the hood now fits flat! ClintK, if you're ever in Toronto, there's a beer on me for those height measurements- they were bang on! I had to cut away some material from the flat sections of hood under panel where the pipes that join the hood to the body come down- the pipes needed rework anyway as I'd modified them to get the big Toyota engine in the car. 

Also removed the rear pack for hopefully the last time, to put finger guarding on it ( looking for a piece of 1/8" polycarbonate for that) and to wire each cell to a terminal strip for balancing. Finger guarding and feeder with resistors for the Lee Hart bridge is also done for the front pack, now that I know I have enough height for the guarding to fit under the hood.


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## Moltenmetal (Mar 20, 2014)

Got my brake parts and assembled the rear driver's side. Got the finger guarding on the rear pack and have it back in place. Should be able to do a better job of top balancing now.

Once I have the brakes back together and the wheels on, I want to run the drivetrain at a few different speeds while the car is still on the axle stands and record the battery current- this should give me an idea of the drivetrain efficiency separate from the rolling resistance etc., though it will be a low estimate of losses because the weight of the car won't be on the wheel bearings etc. Has anyone else done that?


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## Moltenmetal (Mar 20, 2014)

Suffering, rebuilding the hood hinges. Not an easy job...but think I have a strategy to make the second one easier to do than the first one, which I have to do again...


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## Moltenmetal (Mar 20, 2014)

Hood's on looking in very bad need of body work, and needing some kind of prop to hold it open which it never needed before- angles changed a bit when I redid the hinges.

Emergency brake is back together and on the car.

Brake fluid and bleeding next, then wheels back on the rear, car comes off the axle stands, and hopefully it can go for a spin around the block!


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## Moltenmetal (Mar 20, 2014)

Success!!! Shit- eating EV grin from ear to ear that just cannot be wiped off my face!

Nothing is safe, or optimized, but the car rolled right out of the garage and down the road! Probably put 15km on it, just in loops around the neighbourhood - speedo isn't wired up yet- peak draw was 300A, and the accel ramp settings on the controller are definitely set well down the scale, but it was fun and nothing broke! Never got out of 2nd gear...the car will definitely be fast when everything is set up properly! 

Just want to take this opportunity to thank everyone here, especially Doug Ingraham and ClintK but many others too- for your advice, inspirational projects, technical knowledge and the benefit of your experience- and a big thank you to Randy at CanEV for everything too- the stuff he sold me works as promised for sure!

Lots yet to do....but a major milestone has been achieved!


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## Moltenmetal (Mar 20, 2014)




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## Moltenmetal (Mar 20, 2014)

http://youtu.be/KkOyihRqsJ4


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## Moltenmetal (Mar 20, 2014)

Finally figured out how to post a YouTube link...sorry for the lack of websavvy on my part!


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## Moltenmetal (Mar 20, 2014)




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## samwichse (Jan 28, 2012)

I like all the rust repair spots... it gives your car a certain raffishness at odds with the futuristic whine if the ev drivetrain.


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## Moltenmetal (Mar 20, 2014)

Raffishness? You mean that it looks like it was on the losing end of a bar fight, perhaps? It fought with two guys named Salt and Time- and lost big time. The car's the colour of primer so that helps a bit! That's what this winter is for- the REST of the patching plus some attempt to make it look a little prettier! But it is a thing of beauty to me already- driving that thing after 18 years for the first time and having it zip down the roar without the roar of the IC engine and the heat pouring in from every hole in the firewall is an indescribable experience! Worth every minute grinding and welding and cursing at twisted off fasteners...well, I must admit it would have been even more fun if I had a nice clean rust- free donor from the dry southern 'States...!


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## samwichse (Jan 28, 2012)

raffish

Unconventional and slightly disreputable, especially in an attractive manner.

Guess it could be after a bar fight


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## Moltenmetal (Mar 20, 2014)

I get it, and thanks for the compliment- but to me it looks pretty rough!


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## Moltenmetal (Mar 20, 2014)

BTW a buddy of mine said that the fact that it sounds like a Star Trek shuttle craft was a big bonus!


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## Baratong (Nov 29, 2012)

Hey congrats on getting your Spit mobile! It's great to see it going down the road!

Mine has been on hold for a while now. Business got super busy, traveling a lot, and just don't have any time to put into my Spit... Hopefully things will let up soon so I can get it moving forward again but for now, it has to be on hold..


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## Moltenmetal (Mar 20, 2014)

Making a living gets in the way sometimes! Hey, you'll get back to it, and yours is more fun- making a custom BMS beats rust repairs and reworking the whole 12Vart of the car- your donor is WAY better than mine!

If you're in Toronto again, PM me and come by- seriously, your one customer is probably walking distance from here!


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## Moltenmetal (Mar 20, 2014)

You know what? I've been thinking about this a bit, and if I had a nice rust-free donor I would probably have been too scared to do the project. At least with a rusty, thrashed donor, I knew that there was no risk of "wrecking" anything! Gave me the mental freedom to go in there and do what I wanted. Yeah, but that bodywork is going to SUCK...!


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## Baratong (Nov 29, 2012)

For me, that certainly is a consideration. I've been trying to be careful about how I go about the conversion. My donor has been in the US south-west its entire life, so it has no rust at all, and was recently painted. The only problems the body has are easily fixable - there's a hole in the back of the trunk where somebody must have backed into a post and a couple of paint dings here and there. 

My customer is in the building that houses the York-Mills subway station. With how good teleconferencing is these days I don't have a trip scheduled, but sometimes there's no substitute for a face-to-face meeting. Next time I'm up there I'll definitely contact you. I'd love to see your conversion! Funny thing is my daughter is in Toronto this week on a business trip for her company.... seems to be a popular destination for my family this year!


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## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

There is something really cool about a wood dash. I don't know why, but they just always seem to get my attention.


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## samwichse (Jan 28, 2012)

Moltenmetal said:


> You know what? I've been thinking about this a bit, and if I had a nice rust-free donor I would probably have been too scared to do the project. At least with a rusty, thrashed donor, I knew that there was no risk of "wrecking" anything! Gave me the mental freedom to go in there and do what I wanted. Yeah, but that bodywork is going to SUCK...!


Fighting car cancer is pretty much the worst part of anything to do with cars. 

Where I am, my old vw beetle kept rusting out literally as fast as I could get new pieces welded in... but it was my sole source of transportation and I had to drive it in the salt.


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## Moltenmetal (Mar 20, 2014)

Baratong, I'm literally 1 station and a ten minute walk from there. Seriously, contact me and come by!


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## Moltenmetal (Mar 20, 2014)

Fortunately, it has seen its last dose of salt. It's my hope that epoxy and Rust Check will keep the car cancer at bay....


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## Moltenmetal (Mar 20, 2014)

Evmetro, this car is literally a perfect donor- power nothing, a hood that takes the fenders with it, leaving the frame just sitting there with open access to whatever you put under the hood, and the wood dash gives you total freedom with the instruments. (I agree-I love the look too!). And the convertible matches electric drive too- no thoughts about even trying to drive it in the winter, so no cabin heater or heated cell compartments either to worry about. Mind you, you don't get to drive electric in winter, but my Prius C isn't a bad car as a winter driver- unlike the monkeyshit-brown Plymouth Reliant K car I had when I was driving the Spitfire to work in the early '90s- that thing was 2nd only to the 1980 Lada that I owned once as far as utter craptasticness is concerned....


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## Moltenmetal (Mar 20, 2014)

Things under the hood, now that there is one in place, as they sit now. Quality time to be spent neatening things up in the next few days.


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## Moltenmetal (Mar 20, 2014)

Dash, as it sits. Speedo is hooked up, tach pickup needs to be build and the auxiliary motor shaft trimmed so I can get it in place, unless I can come up with a clever design.


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## Moltenmetal (Mar 20, 2014)

Headlights, high beams, markers, signals and even the horn are now wired and functioning. Trunk wiring needs some serious rework but that can be done this winter with the bodywork.


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## 67BGTEV (Nov 1, 2013)

Nice to see good progress.


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## 67BGTEV (Nov 1, 2013)

I see you have Miata seats


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## Baratong (Nov 29, 2012)

You've made a lot of progress! Nice dash too and instrument cluster too.

I like the chrome bumper on yours much better than the big bulky black plastic bumper on my '79 Spit. Do you know if the '78 chrome bumper can be adapted to the '79?


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## Moltenmetal (Mar 20, 2014)

The big rubber 5mph bumper bits have yet to go on. Rear bumper is chrome too but rusted badly- May weld it up and have it re chromed. Guys at The Triumph Experience will know if you can swap bumpers with the 78' and where best to get you one...


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## Moltenmetal (Mar 20, 2014)

Yes, crispy fried Miata seats- the car I got them from had its soft top catch fire.

Comfy, and otherwise in good shape, but don't go all the way back or all the way down into the wells the old seats used to fit in. Tall folks need goggles to ride in the car now...!


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## Moltenmetal (Mar 20, 2014)

A few pics from earlier in the build:









Controller wire routing- trying to keep away from the power wires or cross at a 90 degree angle to avoid picking up noise.









My little JB, pretty much fully wired.









BMS boards going on, and the straps going back on with the grease (zinc grease for the aluminum to copper connections, fluorocarbon grease for the copper to copper ones).









Rear pack with terminal strip for balancing/testing, since the cells are inaccessible back there without the pack coming back out.


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## Moltenmetal (Mar 20, 2014)

Very first forward motion!









Outdoor shot, showing just how much bodywork is required on that hood...









...and on the sides...and everywhere...









Hood up outdoors, showing some passersby the EV goodies!


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## Moltenmetal (Mar 20, 2014)

Our complete fleet of three electric cars (well, two are mere hybrids...but they count, sort of, don't they?). All red, in front of our red house, despite the fact that red is not my favourite colour- but it looks good on cars, and brick...


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

Moltenmetal said:


> Yes, crispy fried Miata seats- the car I got them from had its soft top catch fire.
> 
> Comfy, and otherwise in good shape, but don't go all the way back or all the way down into the wells the old seats used to fit in. Tall folks need goggles to ride in the car now...!


Hi Molten

If the seats are too high it may make it less fun, I remember a friends kit car (Marlin) when he first put it together the seats were too high, it felt like we were sitting *on* rather than *in* the car,
We took the seat cushions out and sat in the bare fiberglass shells for a 400 mile drive

I like to be snugly *in* the car!
(And I'm vertically challenged) (5ft 7)


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## Moltenmetal (Mar 20, 2014)

A few quick calcs and stats about the electric Spitfire:

The old car's specs: it had a 1496 cc 4 cyl carbureuted engine, which developed about 53 hp at 5500 rpm (if you could get it to go that fast without blowing up!)' and peak torque of 69 ft-lbs at 3000 rpm. Fuel economy was about 8L/100 km, but I got less because I drove it fast. The UK versions had higher compression so their hp and torque were better.

For comparison, my little Prius C gets about 4.5 L/100 km in summer.

The electric Spitfire is expected to use about 250 Wh/mile of electricity, or about 156 Wh/km. (car original weight was ~~1830 lbs, I expect post conversion to be about the same, so weight/10 would give me better range, but I'm expecting to drive at highway speeds). I've done all my calcs at 300 Wh/mile to be conservative, as this is what a Chevy Volt does. My car is smaller and lighter but less aerodynamic than the Volt so factors go both ways.


Taking my 38 mile (60.8 km) one way trip to work as an example, the Prius C would use about 2.7 L of gasoline, equivalent to about 32 kWh of chemical energy including refinery losses, and would emit about 6.5 kg of CO2. The old Spitfire would use 4.8 L (56.4 kWh chemical) and emit 11.5 kg CO2. The electric Spitfire would use 12 kWh of electricity including charging losses. 

Our Ontario electrical grid is only 13% fossil fuel powered (10.9% gas, 2% coal, 2013 figures) with the balance being nuclear, hydro and renewables- we have a very green grid, unless you don't like nuclear- but the number of people killed by nuclear in Ontario over the past nearly 60 years is zero, which cannot be said for the number killed by the coal plants we've recently shut down. That 12 kWh amounts to only 0.86 kg CO2 emitted- only 7.4% of the amount the original car would have emitted. Not bad...but not a fair comparison either. Nuclear does use some fossil fuel to generate, and a kWh of electricity is not the same environmental impact as a kWh of chemical energy. You can perhaps make 1 kWh of electricity from 2.5 kWh of chemical energy. And then there are the toxic emissions from the exhaust, which this car no longer generates but which were a big issue with the old car, lacking a catalytic converter etc.

I can drive the car 5 miles just on the energy not used to make a gallon of gas to put in the car...


Then there's the embodied energy of the car itself, saved from the wreckers. The energy used to make the batteries and motor and controller is only a fraction of the energy used to make the 800 kg of steel and aluminum and plastics used in the original car. All the parts taken out were recycled.

For comparison, the electric Spitfire has a nominal 50 hp motor capable of generating about 70 hp for brief periods but only about 20 hp steady. But it can crank out 120 ft-lbs of torque from right down at 100 rpm. Once tuned, it should put the gas engine Spit to shame and should have no trouble attaining highway speeds. When tuned, assuming none of the 40 yr old British Leyland crap left in there breaks, it should be very fast off the line. Even untuned, with very conservative controller settings, it's a riot to drive!

The expected range is about 100-120 km max, based on my 18.5 kWh battery pack- but I intend to keep it from going beyond about 70% of the pack's capacity, so the batteries will last- estimated to be about 3000 charge/discharge cycles before they need replacement.


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## Moltenmetal (Mar 20, 2014)

Duncan,when the soft top goes back on there may need to be more monkeying about with the seats, but so far they're way more comfortable than the originals!


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## Moltenmetal (Mar 20, 2014)

Installed a homemade 4 slot wheel on the auxiliary shaft of the motor, and an IR slot sensor to act as my tachometer sender. Total cost $4. Finally a part of the project that is under budget! Works like a charm- matches the Curtis Spyglass RPM but regrettably my Intellitronix electronic tach has a resolution of only 100 RPM...not that I need more as the thing is more jewelry for the dash than necessity.

That's it for the wiring other than some neatening up in the trunk of my work from 25 yrs ago and of course the heater and fan. Have to build that stuff yet...


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## Moltenmetal (Mar 20, 2014)

Freed up both seatbelt retractors, which were rusted solid but now both work perfectly. Good, as aftermarket replacements were $150 each...


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## Moltenmetal (Mar 20, 2014)

The kid and I went to visit Jan and see his electric sportscar that he built from scratch: 

http://www.szott.com/zot2/zot2.html

Great guy, and awesome workmanship! And as a bonus, he sold me some Spitfire parts originally intended for his build that he didn't end up using. Always good to have a few spares hanging around when you own a car almost 40 years old...


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## Moltenmetal (Mar 20, 2014)

Just posted this on the Batteries and Charging forum hoping for a broader audience, so ignore this if you've seen it there:

I've got a somewhat puzzling situation and hope you can help:

I have an EE Pro Ah gauge, 32 S 180 Ah cells, arranged in two packs: 10 in the rear, 22 in the front, with the miniBMS.

First charge, from new, was done slowly and carefully to ensure that the BMS charge interlock worked. I used a 12V MR16 bulb with clip leads to shunt around cells which topped off first. I managed to get at least half of the cells in both the front and back packs to the high voltage warning point on the BMS, where the BMS boards switch from a quick blink to a 50% duty cycle flash. I didn't do a full top balance. The odd cell would occasionally have the BMS board go into shunt mode (solid LED with brief off blink) but not consistently.

I entered all the parameters into the EE Pro and "synchronized" it such that it showed "full". Pretty sure all the parameters are correct except perhaps the float charge voltage, since I wasn't 100% top balanced at that point.

I drove the car, taking the pack down to about -135 Ah. No BMS warnings and nothing from my Lee Hart bridge LEDs- everything is working well. Noticed a fairly significant bleed of Ah out of the pack while the car wasn't being driven- presumably the input side of my DC/DC. May have to switch that separately with a relay...

On re-charging, I got back to around -21 Ah and started getting BMS high voltage trips. By -20 Ah, all 10 cells in my rear pack were at the warning point for the BMS- and not one cell in the front pack is there yet...thinking that can't be a coincidence, but puzzled how that could possibly be as the cells are all in series during both charge AND discharge!?

Any thoughts?

I'm nervous about bouncing cells repeatedly against the BMS high voltage limit during charging- my current wiring will do this as long as the charger remains plugged in and no cell stays in alarm. Am I being a worrywart, or is it actually harmful? Wondering if there's a better strategy for top balancing than what I'm using?


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## Moltenmetal (Mar 20, 2014)

Re-set my throttle cable so it pulls the pot more fully to the 100% position when floored. Now I can pull 500+ A at will...

From a standing start with the clutch engaged, the car won't squawk the tires on dry pavement, but it comes close- and treating the clutch the way you would with an IC engine car, there would be no problem squawking the tires if you wanted. The car's acceleration from a standing start, clutch engaged and in 2nd gear, is not spectacular but more than acceptable actually. With the clutch and gearing to play with, the car is VERY exciting to drive- very satisfactory indeed, compared to what it was with the original anaemic 1496 cc Leyland engine!

Wow, I can say that every bit of this project was WORTH IT!


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## QuietCar (Jan 3, 2013)

Rather than depend on a cable adjustment which sometimes changes over time....

Go into THROTTLE POT RAW: Read the at rest and the full throttle values. 
Go into the parameter settings for POT 1: Set the min for .2 above your low reading and then set the full throttle value to .2 below what your full reading was. (That will never fail to give full throttle.)

The same can be done for the regen pot.

Some pots vary in values minutely.....This way is fool proof and easy to kept in top tune.

Glad you like your car!

QC


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## Moltenmetal (Mar 20, 2014)

Thanks Quietcar! Definitely intended to use the diagnostic mode of the Curtis unit to set the pot limits at some point, but having some real- world settings for the limits is very helpful. The cable itself, like pretty much the whole car, needs replacement in the near future...but man, it's fun to drive!


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## Moltenmetal (Mar 20, 2014)

Very glad I went with the stiffer motor mount- I geared down today to make better use of regen slowing down at a stop sign, and observed significant movement of the stick shift. Tightened the motor mount bolts and took up a little slack in the transmission mount, which is probably just too soft for the job. Will have to contrive a limit stop for the transmission in both directions or the thing will eventually tear itself up. Torque like crazy!


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## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

Moltenmetal said:


> Very glad I went with the stiffer motor mount- I geared down today to make better use of regen slowing down at a stop sign, and observed significant movement of the stick shift. Tightened the motor mount bolts and took up a little slack in the transmission mount, which is probably just too soft for the job. Will have to contrive a limit stop for the transmission in both directions or the thing will eventually tear itself up. Torque like crazy!


There is a company that sells a really easy DOM sleeve with matched poly bushings and bolt sleeves. They make fantastic motor mounts. You can see a close up of them and how I used them for my motor mounts in "The Metro" thread, (first link in my signature below) towards the end where I upgraded from the AC35 to the AC74. I can't get my shifter to budge now, but it used to jump all over the place with the old rubber mounts that I was tearing up. Another option to stiffen your mounts is to fill them with windshield urethane.


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## Moltenmetal (Mar 20, 2014)

Thanks EVMetro, your builds are unbelievable...pleased that you looked over here!

Agree that we don't want a motor or tranny mount to be the thing that breaks- especially in my car with the driveshaft right next to my leg...very impressed with the torque I'm getting out of my AC50' just need to manage it a bit better. 

Motor mount seems ok, but the tranny mount isn't up to the job long term.

What did you end up with on the regen? Driving the off- pedal regen out of the box right now, but would like a means to adjust it. Coasting is no problem with my clutch but would like to max it out at lower speeds when needed. Regrettably, reverse torque seems more poorly taken up by my existing mounts for some reason- in the forward direction I think something is bottoming out on the frame which actually helps a bit. No racket when that happens though- so far noise and vibration haven't been a big problem. Everything seems nicely balanced and stable, even to fairly high motor speeds.


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## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

Moltenmetal said:


> Thanks EVMetro, your builds are unbelievable...pleased that you looked over here!


Oh I look over here quite a bit! I enjoy stirring the pot over on the political debate threads in chit chat, but my true passion is here in the builds section. I love to see what other people are building. I have been enjoying your build!



> Moltenmetal
> What did you end up with on the regen?


I have this thing about not disturbing the kinetic energy with regen. My observation has been that not only does off throttle regen put energy back into the pack at optimum times, it also disturbs a nice long energy saving off throttle coast. In the Tevie2 build that I am finishing up now, I have added a big button on the top of my manual shifter that controls a potentiometer for regen. This allows for "on demand" regen, allowing me to use it only when I need it and control a wider range of regen. The shifter seemed like a very easy to reach spot for something like this that I intend to use as the primary braking for the car. I also want a lot of flexibility with the regen, so I am building a regen master control panel where I can switch regen off, or select off throttle, the shifter mounted switch, or a dash mounted pot that is triggered by the brake light switch.

Keep up the great work, and thanks for maintaining a great thread!


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## Moltenmetal (Mar 20, 2014)

Think I'm going to save the manually adjustable regen until AFTER I get the car "safetied" and legally on the road...but I'm sure I'll end up playing with a couple different options until I settle on what I like best. Right now the car is totally driveable but I think it's set for only 100 A of regen max. Haven't started screwing with the settings in the software as I still have plenty of stuff to do to make the car look decent and to pass a safety, including contriving a heater/defogger. 

I too want to be able to do a true coast without having to pop my foot on the clutch, and to be able to max out regen in a controllable fashion to avoid using my mechanical brakes. In the end this car needs to be a combination of fun and efficiency as I do intend to drive it to work and back. Otherwise it'd just be a very expensive toy, and expensive toys make me feel guilty...perhaps it was my upbringing to blame for that.


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## Moltenmetal (Mar 20, 2014)

Confident that I have found the source of the charge/discharge Ah mismatch: Peukert's exponent in the EEPro was set to 1.25 despite the fact that I had written down that I had changed it to the correct 1.0 for LiFePO4 batteries...

Leakage out of the pack through the shunt when the controller is shut off is about 10 mA, measured on the 10A scale of my Fluke so not very accurate- that's not much, only about 1 W, and includes both the EEPro prescaler and leakage into the DC/DC when the output side is disconnected. That does not include the LEDs in my Lee Hart bridges because their currents do not flow through the shunt- they use another few watts because most of the energy flowing to them is lost through their resistors.


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## Moltenmetal (Mar 20, 2014)

The transmission mounts were a symptom, not the cause. The cause was the bolts that attach the motor front C face to the mounting bracket. In the forward direction, one bolt bottoms out on the end of its arc-shaped slot in the bracket before all the others. This bolt got loose and eventually damaged the female thread in the aluminum of the motor face. All three other bolts were loose too. I re-tapped the offending bolt hole from the original 7/16" to 1/2NC and Loctited it in. Tightened the rest. Created a bit of a tight spot to work under there- if they loosen again I will have to remove a few cells to give myself a place to work on it properly.

The bracket itself is nice. The arc slots allow you to pick the rotation of the bracket on the motor that suits your mounting. But the front face of the motor has the cable for the encoder and temp sensor coming out through it, so you can't mount the motor with the C face in contact with the bracket as you should. Per Randy's suggestion I used some 1/2" NC nuts as spacers between the front of the motor and the bracket to make space for the encoder cable. If I had to do this over again I'd make my own bracket and just make a clearance slot in the bracket for the cable. As it is, I'm relying too much on the threads in the weak aluminum of the motor face. There is not enough friction between the fasteners and the motor face so the whole torque ends up loading the first bolt to contact the end of its slot. This is likely to be an ongoing headache but for now I'll just monitor it rather than jumping in and redoing the whole thing.


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## Moltenmetal (Mar 20, 2014)

Note- it is regen that loosens the bolts, because during regen there is no end of slot for the bolts to bear on- friction between the fasteners and the motor face and bracket at the 4 small contact points is all there is. That's inadequate, long term...


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

Hi Molten
If you are worried about the bolts into the aluminium you could "Helicoil" them
http://www.helicoil.in/

Bosch used to use helicoils in some of their fuel pumps from brand new
The steel bolts would go into the steel helicoils in the aluminium pump bodies - prevented all sorts of nasties with steel going into aluminium

That will give you oodles of clamp load, then just get some circular spacers made up


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## Moltenmetal (Mar 20, 2014)

Helicoils are a good repair strategy but hopefully I won't need it...but I do think some better spacers are in order. The nuts were handy and fast but not up to the job I'm afraid...


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

Hi Molten

People think of helicoils as a repair - but they are even better if you use them before you get a failure - you end up with a much stronger thread - that does not gall the way a thread in aluminium can


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## dedlast (Aug 17, 2013)

Duncan said:


> Hi Molten
> 
> People think of helicoils as a repair - but they are even better if you use them before you get a failure - you end up with a much stronger thread - that does not gall the way a thread in aluminium can


^ This. We use them on all the aluminum enclosures where I work. And these are 8-32 and 10-24 size screws.

B


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## Moltenmetal (Mar 20, 2014)

I see your point. Aluminum doesn't gall on steel or stainless steel in my experience- excessive thread friction isn't the problem with a hole tapped into aluminum. The problem is that the female threaded material is weak, so you can't put enough torque on the fastener to develop enough friction for the joint to remain tight- the aluminum yields out of the way, allowing the joint to loosen. Loctite also solves that problem, assuming you don't over-torque- if you apply it, which I didn't the first go-round...and I knew better! 

If you put in a helicoil you're reducing the size of the strong fastener you can fit in a threaded hole of a given dimension. That allows you to develop more stress in the fastener without stripping the female thread and hence lock it in better.

If I find that I have ongoing problems, I'll helicoil all four bolt holes. But I had the car out on Sunday and everything is now rock solid. The car is probably off the road until spring now, so we'll see how bored I get with bodywork this winter...I might do it pre-emptively.


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## Moltenmetal (Mar 20, 2014)

Slicing and dicing old rusty body panels again with the angle grinder. Previous owner did some very artistic panel patches using strips of steel brazed into one another and the original panels. Regrettably the braze galvanically corroded away both his steel and the original panel...so slice and dice i must. None of it is structural but if I just fibreglass over it, I'll have to do it again in a few years as what I'd have to attach to at the bottom edge would just rot away eventually. Proper repairs are going to take time and effort, but I guess I've already sunk lots of both into this thing!

Renewed all the seals in the brake master cylinder and will do the same now to the clutch m/c as both rewarded my efforts by leaking fluid which ate my epoxy like candy. Oh well, that nasty flat deck that both sit on looked good for a while- it has been an eyesore since I bought the car because leaking fluids attack the paint and then the underlying steel gets wet and rusts right away. When I put the brake m/c back down, I covered the repair paint with a layer of aluminized polyethylene 8 mil shrink wrap sheet I had laying around- it should contain any spills and leaks and save my paint- again, for a while. The bore of the m/c looked perfect so I think I can risk a rebuild of the m/c for the clutch.


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## Moltenmetal (Mar 20, 2014)

Finally splashed out on a 80 cu ft mig mix bottle and regulator/flow meter set for my welder so I can do hardwire MIG. What a difference! Wow, I'm positively kicking myself for suffering with fluxcore all this time....


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## Moltenmetal (Mar 20, 2014)

Still hard at the body filler...discovering just how much I dislike bodywork. Damn, what I need is somebody like EVMetro to just do this wretched work for me! Somebody who knows what he's doing, and has the skills and patience I lack.

I fibreglassed over the transmission cover, making new space to fit the Toyota transmission properly and to replace the parts of the original fibreboard that the raccoons wrecked. I hate that perhaps a little less than bodywork.

All the holes are patched now with steel, except for the inner edge of the rear fenders. Minot rot there will be patched with fibreglass.

The hood has always been a pimply mess. The steel is all solid but it is a huge panel and it has been through the wars, with lots of waviness and minor dents that are beyond my skills and tooling to flatten in the steel itself. So it means a slow and painful multi- step process of filler, sanding with the long block, guide coat to find the low and high spots, and more filler. All this in my mostly wood-heated garage shop, which is far from perfect to ventilate. The stink of styrene is always there...

Still dealing with a minor dissatisfaction about the way the car is wired. Right now my BMS interlock works fine, but is wired to the warning buzzer instead of to the HVC alarm contacts. These don't work, perhaps due to some leakage into my IGN pin - will test that the next time I charge. Using the buzzer contacts does stop the charger, but it just restarts as soon as the HVC clears- my pack never reaches the charger's shutoff voltage, so the charger just bounces on and off. Randy suggests dragging up the last few cells with a manual charge, but with HVC tripping on the celltop boards at 3.68v (not adjustable on the miniBMS) and the charger set to shut off at 3.65 v per cell, I suspect that it's just too close to work well. Apparently things do tend to even out, getting closer and closer to top balance with each charge- discharge cycle, but as it stands I have to be there to monitor the charge and stop it. No good for the long haul. Hopefully I can get the issue with the HVC contacts sorted so I will have to cycle the keyswitch to restart the charger - that will give me more comfort.


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## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

> Still hard at the body filler...discovering just how much I dislike bodywork. Damn, what I need is somebody like EVMetro to just do this wretched work for me! Somebody who knows what he's doing, and has the skills and patience I lack.


I remember my first body shop job as an apprentice, learning to use body filler. They started me out doing door dings, and it took two days to do what now takes two hours. It looks really simple, but it takes a lot of practice before it really is. Trust me it will get easier...


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## Moltenmetal (Mar 20, 2014)

Note to self: if anybody ever tempts you to do restoration work again, tell them to sod off! 

Still applying filler and even the odd bit of short hair glass filler to little holes and seams, mostly just to keep water and road grit out of places it shouldn't go. Down finally to glaze on the hood- a product I hadn't even heard of until this build. We'll see what the first coat of primer reveals- there are tons of little defects that probably should be glazed but I just cant't mix small enough quantities of the stuff to get it all applied within its workable time. Wallpapering the areas needing the most work with glaze has meant a hell of a lot of sanding afterward to get things back to flat again.

The good news is that most of my steelwork was close enough that it only took reasonable filler applications to make a nice shape. The driver's side rear fender behind the wheel well was a total reconstruction of strip after strip of welded steel, but the shape is nearly there already. The passenger side isn't quite as nice but it was first and there was some learning there. When I think of all the single- use skills this project has taken...!


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## Baratong (Nov 29, 2012)

Hey I feel for you! That sounds like a ton of work... but I'm sure the car will look great on the road in the spring!


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## Moltenmetal (Mar 20, 2014)

A couple of learning points from a dead amateur body-worker, so far:

1). Evercoat lite weight body filler sands way easier than Bondo filler. Costs about the same, but saves tons of sandpaper. The Evercoat product has a lot of talc in it which aids sanding, but has to compromise strength somewhat. Great for lighter fills.

2) you can use a wire brush to clean finish and filler debris from sandpaper on a block just like you clean a file. While a crepe rubber block works best on a belt sander for removing wood dust, this debris is best removed with the wire brush. Wish I'd have known this twenty or thirty pieces of sandpaper ago...eventually the sandpaper loses its cutting grit and needs replacement, but a few strokes with the wire brush ever once in a while keeps it cutting rather than loading up and skating over the surface. Estimate 3-5x the life using this method, which saves a lot of time changing paper on the blocks.

3) short strand fibreglass filler can be best applied to a piece of waxed paper, then to the surface. Leaves a smoother fill- but don't topcoat it this way, as the wax stays on the surface and will reduce bond strength to the next layer. You need to either dewax or sand or both before top coating with anything.

4). Glaze filler- never heard of it before, but it makes a huge difference. Way better than the old spot putty.


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## Moltenmetal (Mar 20, 2014)

Sanded the entire car today, and applied what is probably the last go round of filler. Down to just glaze now, sanding and filling gouges in the original paint and lines and bubbles in my filler. Had to scrape the whole trunk lid, as there was poor adhesion between two layers of the previous paint. Took off the front bumper, the rear light clusters and the marker lights and front signal lights, now have to pry off all the trim that covers the standing seams between body panels on the rear of the body so I can finish sanding.

Bought a 2k high build acrylic urethane primer, and wondering whether I need a sealer coat before the primer. I have a mixture of bare steel, filler/glaze and old sanded finish. The finish seems to be all proper automotive cross linked stuff, hard and pretty durable and doesn't lift when you put solvent on it, so I think I might be ok with just the primer over the whole works.

Also looking for recommendations for a good solid colour finish system. Thinking of going a medium yellow like ClintK's Bumblebee, because I already have two red cars...and I like the visibility of the yellow. Clint's car looks great! Had bad luck with industrial yellows though- no hiding power whatsoever, and really expensive for some reason also. Hiding shouldn't be an issue over my gray primer, but if the paint is too transparent it will telegraph every tiny defect and make my crappy workmanship look even worse. I'm most decidedly not a painter, so I can expect to have to wet sand and polish when I'm done my attempt at spraying...


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## Moltenmetal (Mar 20, 2014)

Seam sealer and short hair fibreglass on the voids in all the joints in my floor pans, and a first coat of rocker guard on the whole floor pan and rear interior and foot wells of the car. Phew, what a stink...ventilation in my shop in winter is far from ideal...I didn't smell a thing while applying it though, as my respirator is excellent. Got to deal with the ventilation though, as there's no way I can have that much solvent in my shop when I start spraying the primer. Don't want to wait for warmer weather as around here, that'll be a long wait.


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## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

I don't know if it is any better or worse than any other paint manufacturer, but I use Napa automotive paint. I think it is generic Sherwin Williams. I use their etch prime on bare metal, and then two part primer. I don't always buy the fanciest paint materials, but I always look for 2 part something with a hardener in it. Another thing that can help you save time when you are blocking out the filer is use the 3M red sticky rolls of sandpaper. I never have sandpaper get clogged up at all with the red rolls and Evercoat filler. The red rolls that I use are 3M 01688, and they are offered all over the internet.

Nice to see this build is still coming along!


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## Moltenmetal (Mar 20, 2014)

Hey EVMetro, thanks for the advice! 

The app sheet for the 2k acrylic urethane high build primer/surfacer I'm planning on using says that it is good over bare steel. I've sanded only to 120 grit to this point so there should be a bit of tooth in the steel for the primer to grab. Do you think I need an etching primer for the bare steel spots? Do you use a 1-part self etch primer in a spray can or for you mix and spray with the gun? I tend to shy away from anything which is 1 part ie. not crosslinking- worried about solvent swelling of these 1 part materials when I go over them with the 2 part stuff with the strong solvents in it. 

I'm planning on buying a semi flexible long block to help with the curved surfaces, and a roll of self adhesive paper for it for blocking the primer. What grits do you block primer with? Do you start with 120 or 220? It is almost certainly going to take a couple of go-rounds of priming and blocking, and I will likely stop short of getting every panel flat- it will not be anywhere near your fine standards! But I want to take a good shot at the hood at least. The hood on these cars is most of the car, and being a huge panel it shows every defect clear as day...

I have the Evercoat powdered guide coat in a spray can, and have been using it to help me level the filler. If, as likely, I end up sanding through the primer before I have the thing flat, do I need to do more than wipe the panel down with solvent to remove the guide coat dust from the low spots? Does it lead to bad adhesion if you prime over it?


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

Hi Molten
"wipe the panel down with solvent"

Have you been introduced to "Tackrags"?
These are cloths with a tiny amount of stickiness 
They come sealed in plastic bags and you use them to remove dust


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## Moltenmetal (Mar 20, 2014)

Definitely buying some for between coats Duncan, but don't have any yet. Since I don't work in gloves except when applying filler or cleaning up, I always give the panel a wipe with solvent in case I end up with a greasy handprint showing through somewhere.


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## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

As far as grit of sandpaper goes for me, I never touch the car with anything coarser than 80 grit, except where I am going to apply filler, and I use 40 grit roloc disks for that. I block filler with 80 grit, but leave just enough filler left on my repair so that I can finish it in 180. 120 is fine too if you are going to be blocking lots of primer. Every body man has his preferences for sanding blocks, mine is a 5 inch 3m rubber block, and my main one is a 9 inch 3m rubber block. Those two blocks have been with me for well over a decade, and they are to me what the perfect blanket is to a toddler. The 9 gets used on almost everything, and the 5 is just for times when the 9 is just too big. After I lay on the first layer of primer, I will block it with 320, and then I can tell if I need to go back in and fix something that I missed. If it blocks out without breaking through the primer, I will final block it with 500 or 600 for the paint. It is pretty common to need a second round of primer.

The etch prime that I use is the 1 part rattle can, and the bare metal gets so little that you can barely see it. Anything more than that and the main primer coat will not stick. If your primer is designed for bare metal, you probably don't really need the etch prime.I don't really use guide coat much, I just get a black rattle can and dust the area from an arm length away if I want guide coat. Usually I can blow the dust off of the area that I am blocking and see the shiny spots in the primer that represent low spots


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## Moltenmetal (Mar 20, 2014)

Thanks EVMetro. I worked the filler down with 60 grit, all by hand, and then blocked again with 100 grit. I have a 5" rubber block and a rigid plastic one perhaps 10" long. I then went over everything with the random orbit sander with 120 grit, which I also used to scuff sand the old finish on the whole car. There were lots of nicks and deep scratches in the old finish to sand out and lots of edges to feather, and small dents to find too. The hood had been primed with rattle can red oxide and then painted with Tremclad years ago, so I had to sand that crap off completely. 

You finish with 180 before applying primer? I think I like the idea of having some scratches for the primer to stick to on my bare steel so I might stay at 120 grit.

So you block the primer with 320 grit? I guess I would have to take a pass with 180, and since I will have probably several go rounds of priming and blocking it won't hurt to have a little more aggressive cutting paper to do that.

When do you switch from the hand block to the random orbit machine? 

When, if ever, do you switch from dry to wet sanding? I would imagine that 320 or anything finer would load up pretty fast dry. I won't touch it with wet until I have complete coverage with primer and it's flat enough.


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## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

The government did away with wet sanding years ago when I was still working as a collision tech in body shops, and I learned to adapt. An air blower does the same thing as water. There's nothing wrong with wet sanding, it's just not used in body shops anymore. I use a windex bottle with water in it when I sand the clear for polishing. That's about all the wet sanding that I do.

I personally don't use any air sanders of any type on my own "pretty" builds, but I did use a DA for some production work. That's just me, and I can tell you that every body guy I ever worked with did things their own way. I think of my blocks as a mill that cuts the high spots off of a surface, kinda like getting a cylinder head resurfaced. A cnc set up travels on a precision plane and never cuts low spots. The longer and straighter your block is, the more it is like a cnc set up. There is no way that my hands will ever be as precise as a mill, but a few thousand hours of blocking filler does help out.

As for 180 before primer, it pays off months later after the sun has its way with your paint. You can prime over 80 grit scratches, and then block the primer smooth, and you won't be able to see anything different than priming over smaller 180 scratches. After you paint it, it still looks beautiful. As the primer and paint cure over the next year, it slowly shrinks, as well as the extra primer in the deeper 80 grit sanding scratches. You can begin to see the 80 grit scratches through the paint, but they tend to look more like 40 grit hack marks. Even with the 180, it is easy to leave an 80 grit groove if you don't work it enough. It can feel smooth to your fingers, but there can still be some residual deep grooves that you missed.

If you know that you are going to be doing another round of primer, 180 should be fine for blocking out a first coat and will be more precise.

There is another product that I like to use on a final coat of filler, and that is evercoat "honey". It looks like real honey, but it is a little thinner. You can pour some of this onto your plate of mud when you are mixing it, and it thins out your filler so that you can lay down a super smooth and thin final coat. It also makes your filler fill any pin holes on the surface. I don't use it all the time, but sometimes it is what you need to make an area perfect without having to block a whole lot of filler. It is also nice for filling just a few pinholes without having to re coat the whole surface. You can use a razor blade as a miniature spreader to smear some into the pinhole, and the scrape the rest off. It is important to fill all of your pinholes with 2 part something, and not spot putty from you local parts store.


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## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

A small can of that honey costs about the same as a can of evercoat filler, but I only use one of these to about 10 gallons of filler. I think it is just like regular polyester fiberglass resin, but it is designed to sand better and not bleed any color stains.


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## Moltenmetal (Mar 20, 2014)

I'll take advantage of not having those rules in place and wet sand once I have the whole thing covered with primer that's as flat as I can manage.

I think I understand the blocking process the same way. I do woodworking so that analogy works- you're using the long block as a plane rather than as a sander. A plane will shoot straight for a multiple of its length and will knock off high spots and jump over lows before it cuts a continuous straight curl of uniform thickness. You can try to use it to smooth a convex curved surface if the curve's radius is enough of a multiple of the plane's length, but what you're really doing on shorter curves is making a bunch of line segments and trying to blend them together. If the curve is too tight, or it's concave, you need a different tool to get it smooth- either a tool with a curved sole or a really short sole- a tool like a spoke shave. I saw a video of a guy using a foam block with the quick release adhesive paper on both the top and bottom of the block, so you can use the panel's curvature to shape the tool and then use the paper to hold it in that shape. It looked like a good idea so I think I'll give it a try when it's time to block the primer.

But there's the difference- in automotive finishes, small deviations from flat, even if they're gentle curves free of sharp edges, show up as ripples in the shine- which you won't tolerate because of your skill but which I will have to accept. I have neither the skill nor the time to shoot for perfect flatness, and because my panel fit- up on the car is embarrassing anyway it would just be a waste if time to aim for that result- the car will still have big flaws I can't realistically fix. In woodworking, you can tolerate a fairly significant amount of ripple in a surface because of the texture of the wood, as long as you get rid of all edges and scratches that will reflect light back to the eye and show up as a defect. That's where the random orbit sander shines for wood finishing, and I've been using it for sanding with finer grits after block "planing", and for blending away any edges (feathering filler and existing paint, sanding out deep scratches and nicks in the old finish). Those areas will end up as low spots in the primer, some of which I will be able to flatten when blocking it, but some of them I will probably just have to live with. Whatever result I get' it will be a huge improvement from what I had even when I bought this car!

The missed coarse grit scratches eventually telegraphing through the curing finish is exactly the kind of thing I need to learn from you! That's the kind of thing that experience teaches, and I'm grateful for you taking the time to explain this stuff to me! The guide coat is really helpful in finding those scratches. I'd hoped the primer would be able to fill them...I guess I have a lot more glaze work to do then!

I don't have the honey- but I have been using the Evercoat 2 part glaze to fill pinholes and scratches and to smooth transitions from bare steel to original finish. It is much thinner than lightweight filler but not quite of a wipeable consistency. I find that it also cures way too fast, even when I use only a small dot of cream hardener. I have a set of stainless steel applicators that I've been using and I find them much easier to use for thin fills than the plastic ones, but I'm still very green on that score so I still need to do a lot of sanding even after a glaze application.


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## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

Every body and paint job has flaws in the bodywork. I see the flaws in the jobs I do, and evaluate how much extra time it will take to make it perfect. Even with hundreds of hours into a body, I have to leave imperfections behind so I can get the job done. I have learned to "cheat things in" to cut back on time, and I see things that could be better and then don't do them. When I go to a huge car show that has lots of high end cars, I can spot flaws on every car, even as I walk at a brisk pace. When cars pass me on the freeway, I see evidence out of the corner of my eye of a collision repair as they drive by me. Very distracting, but that is how it is if you do collision work as a profession. Since you do woodwork, you could probably spot flaws in woodwork that I would never notice. I have no doubt that your first body and paint job will not look like a master of the trade did it, but for me personally, I have huge respect knowing that it was done by the owner of the car. I bet it will look pretty sweet too.


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## Moltenmetal (Mar 20, 2014)

Occupational hazard EVMetro! You'll be able to see errors and flaws in my bodywork from the photos, much less out of the corner of your eye!

You did inspire me to try harder, for sure. At least another couple passes with the glaze to catch a few more scratches and gouges before I start dusting and getting ready for primer.

Took a crack at the heater today. Think I have a plan, but need some more materials before I can install it.


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## Vhclbldr (Feb 8, 2014)

Gentlemen,

I have been following your conversations, taking notes, and (hopefully) applying them on my bodyworking of the Electric Camino.
EV Metro, I know what you mean about leaving behind flaws due to time/project limitations. I am starting on the roof in the hopes that that will be the place where flaws will be least prominent (this may not be true, especially since the roofline is below eye level and more easily viewed on edge than other body panels).

I have been considering paint colors and have (90%) settled on one called, "Blitz Black" by John Deere. It is a flat/satin black and, with only the minimum chrome trim, should make the Electric Camino look pretty good (and possibly hide the worst of the novice bodywork errors).


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## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

It already takes a lot of time and money to convert a car to electric, so restoring the chassis can be overwhelming, especially since restoring the chassis may not be ones main skill set. On the other hand, if you already have that much time and money into your conversion, why not make it pretty? For me, basic electrical theory was not my main skill so it is probably more challenging for me than it is for others. I have had the chance to use the skills for many unique trades such as auto glass, collision, painter, engineer, electrician, welder, upholstery, fabricator, detailer, and probably a few more. It should be no surprise if any of us don't shine in a particular area if it was not our main skill set. I try to do as many things myself as I can, but I still have to farm out precision machine work. I really admire others peoples builds where they are covering a really broad set of skills, and I envy those guys who have an EE education and those who have the skills and access to machining.


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## Moltenmetal (Mar 20, 2014)

I'm very glad that EVMetro's experience is being recorded here for the benefit of others. I'm grateful for his help, and very grateful to many other contributors here- people who have made excellent suggestions of what to do and also what NOT to do. 

Like many people, I know some of the basics of body repair and have done some minor repairs before on rusty crappy old cars, but want to step the game up a notch or two on this car. EVMetro's threads are an inspiration for sure.

I too have learned a lot of single-use skills on this build job, and like EVMetro I have an almost obsessive need to do things myself for both the joy and the learning of it. I have a hobbyist background in electronics which was more than sufficient background to wire together a bunch of purchased components (I didn't risk building my own controller) and to build the basic relay interlocking box etc., as well as to re-wire the old car for the 2nd time. The basic mechanics and fabricating are what I grew up with- an inheritance from my father, who actually directly taught me very little. He taught enormously by example- by my watching what he was doing, asking questions, and by his willingness to try to answer them. 

As a chemical engineer, some of my formal training and much of my on the job learning is applicable at least indirectly, but much of what I needed to know to do this is definitely outside my formal area of expertise. But my job too gives me access to a wide range of people to bounce ideas off and to ask questions of.

If I had to compare this project against my last big project, which was a self-designed and self-built major addition to my home, with me doing all subtrades from foundations to finishes except bricklaying and concrete finishing, I think doing the electric car wasn't nearly as much of a stretch! The risk and the learning curve on that project were both far higher, and far more was hanging in the balance. Now that it's been done for over five years, and that it AND my marriage are still standing, I can say it was worth it! But I can say that my wife was far more supportive and understanding of that project, as she benefitted from it. She refers to this one as "the other woman"...!


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## Moltenmetal (Mar 20, 2014)

Spent the day sweeping the shop with dust bane, dusting the car, sweeping it out again, solvent wiping, a last few passes of lightweight filler and glaze on minor defects, rocker guard under the edge of the wheel wells, masking, tack ragging and finally, three coats of acrylic urethane high build primer! Regrettably the guy gave me white rather than light gray...but it helped see the coverage anyway. 

Guy at the paint shop shop gave me the MSDS for only the resin part- once I found the MSDS on line, it turns out that the cure is nasty stuff that has hexamethylene diisocyanate in it- less than 1%, but enough to make me extra careful with ventilation and PPE. The prereacted isocyanates (isocyanates homopolymer is what it sometimes says on the MSDS) are much safer, not least because they are much bigger molecules, are not volatile (so they are only found in the paint droplet aerosol, they don't evaporate into the air). They stick like glue to activated carbon too, making it possible to paint without a clean air/supplied air respirator. I used my half face respirator, gloves, chemical goggles and a Tyvek suit, as well as ventilation at the highest rate I could manage while keeping the shop warm enough to ensure a good cure. I wear glasses so my full face respirator fit is affected by the arms, making the half facer with goggles a safer choice. I can't paint well even with my glasses, depth perception being just about nonexistent. But I gave it a go, and the number of defects which were immediately apparent were surprisingly few! I'm sure I'll see lots of nastiness tomorrow, but tonight I'm exhausted but cautiously optimistic!


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## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

How exciting! I am glad to hear that you have made it to this point. You are right about that stuff being nasty to breathe. The way I understand it, it will crystallize your lungs if you breathe it without respiratory protection. Supplied air is the safest, and then a good respirator with charcoal and pre filters is the next best.

It is amazing how easy it is to see the things that you miss when you are spraying the primer and it is all wet n shiny. I usually find a bunch more when I block out that first layer of primer too.


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## Moltenmetal (Mar 20, 2014)

Well, it's not exactly shiny...i need better lighting and a bit more learning on how to set up the gun. I have two cheap hvlp gravity fed guns- a 1.4 for finish coats and a 2.3 for spraying viscous stuff like the epoxy I used on the frame and floor pans. The urethane requires a 1.8-2.0 without reducer so I thought the 2.3 would be ok. It certainly didn't spray too much liquid too quickly, and I had the liquid needle set to pull back as far as possible. Maybe I'm just moving the gun too fast over the surface, or there's something else wrong, because I don't get that glossy wet look even when it's going on. Maybe I'm too scared of runs and sags., and I certainly did't get any which is a plus.

But the big issue is that my surface is rough, as if the paint has been drying on the way to the surface, or the droplets were too scattered and couldn't find one another to spread into a film. It's also possible I have the pressure set too low and it's not atomizing enough so the droplets are too big. I have it at 40 psig when the trigger is off, which drops to 35 at the regulator when the trigger is pulled on the gun without any paint in it. The gun is supposed to be used between 20 and 35 psig. I did add a small coalescing filter right at the gun inlet- good thing, because as dry as the air is in my shop, it did catch some water. Maybe there's too much pressure drop from the filter- no gauge after it to tell. This gun has no separate air flow control (the 1.4 does). Basically I'm learning...the hard way. The trouble is, these thick materials are all hazardous and a bastard to clean up after, so it's tough to experiment.


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## Moltenmetal (Mar 20, 2014)

Definitely need to do some gun setup practice. After a little research, it seems that even though my gun orifice is a little too big for the primer I'm using, it may be that I have too high an air to paint ratio. The gun is clean, so it's not a blockage in the paint flow path. I need to test it with something not so hazardous but with a similar viscosity, that I can easily clean from the gun. Maybe some black Tremclad or the like. More experiments next weekend.

Aside from an obvious problem on the nose lip of the hood that will take another go-round of filler, and a few minor things, the bodywork is looking adequate, to my standards anyway! Mind you, that rough primer finish hides a lot of sins...will have to sand it a bit before applying more anyway, so we'll see how many low spots I have after that!

Just wonderful to have the car one colour, even if it is white!


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## Moltenmetal (Mar 20, 2014)

A few pics just for completeness- and by no means are these to be taken as examples of good body work- you want that, go look at EVMetro's awesome builds, or the work of several others here!









The previous owner did a nice brazed segmented patch here, which you can see once I ground away the filler- he had much better metalworking skills than mine for sure, though he also used really thin steel. It seems that he left the rotten panel behind his work to help guide the shape of his patch, but it also soaked up water and encouraged rust. Note the rust perforations at a uniform distance both above and below the horizontal braze line: plain indication of galvanic corrosion between the steel and the bronze of the braze. 









Interior patch done, and first segment in place.









All the patch segments in place. This has been hardwire MIG welded, now that I splurged on a bottle and regulator/flowmeter setup. 









Filler and sanding.









After priming, with the wrong gun settings. But for a rank amateur, I'm feeling pretty good about this!


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## Moltenmetal (Mar 20, 2014)

Hood, after exploratory sanding with a coarse disc on the angle grinder to remove loose filler, rust and heavy finish. This tool was ideal for cleaning up areas prior to steel patching and for grinding back my welds, but on the hood I should have been less aggressive with this step- it would have saved me a lot of work later dealing with the deep scratches left by this coarse sandpaper. Finer sandpaper loaded up so fast though that it was very frustrating. The panel steel is very wavy and pimply, like it had been through a hailstorm or worse. I'm not at all skilled in using the dolly and hammer to flatten dents, and no experience or tools to deal with dents when the back side of the dent is inaccessible. I did manage to take a few of the worst ones out, but most of this had to be dealt with using filler because of my lack of skill.









After a pass or two of Bondo filler. This stuff is crap- although it's strong and adherent, it is murder on sandpaper, as it doesn't seem to contain enough talc and leaves a gummy layer on the surface irrespective of how much, or how little, hardener you use.









After many more passes of filler, hand-sanding with the block, a bit more sanding with guide coat to help find low spots, and then another round of filler. Many, many passes... Evercoat LiteWeight (thanks EVMetro!) plus knowing to use the wire brush to dislodge debris from it periodically made this process a lot easier, but it was slow and painful.









At the end I was using Evercoat 2 part glaze (basically really thin filler) to fill in scratches and level transitions between bare steel and filler or old finish, but I had trouble with it curing too fast (too short a working time) and with my applicator technique, leaving streaks of excess material that took too much sanding to remove. Oh, learning the hard way, again...story of my life it seems.









After primer/surfacer- you can see the result of my poor spray gun technique, tiger-striping as I was trying to get more paint on the panel to get the primer to flatten out. It was futile because I had the wrong HVLP gun settings. I think now that I had too high an air to paint ratio, leaving a grainy finish. But the great news to me is, there were very few "oh, I missed that!" major problems with the bodywork jumping out at me as the primer went on. That may change after some blocking of the primer and a chance to get a nice smooth coat on there. And fortunately, my standards are pretty low- I am definitely NOT a perfectionist! Of course that makes me a poor candidate for bodyworker, which suits me fine- restoration will NEVER be a hobby for me!


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## Moltenmetal (Mar 20, 2014)

These are just examples: basically the front and rear of each of the rear wheelwells were gone on both sides, the lower edge of the rear wheelwells needed reconstruction, and you've seen lots of other bodywork that I did before I got the car in driveable condition. Plenty of dings and dents too, some of which had been there since I got the car. Fun stuff...glad most of it is in the rearview mirror!


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## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

Looking good!


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## Vhclbldr (Feb 8, 2014)

Practice, practice, practice....

Still, better than MAACO...


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## Moltenmetal (Mar 20, 2014)

Having a real picnic with this urethane primer/surfacer. It sands like a dream, and the foam block I bought works well for blocking it- but of course I'm nowhere near flat yet. On the bad side, the stuff has a really short pot life. When I tested the pattern of the gun initially it looked pretty good, but the paint application rate is still low. I completely disassembled my gun because it was full of the crap, despite being thoroughly washed out last time, and it seems like I will have to run gun cleaner through it between batches of primer based on what I just experienced tonight with my second pass of primer: the stuff thickened in the gun. I might have added a little too much hardener, but not by much...I'm using a proper mixing cup. The thickening and clogging is why my surface finish has been bad- as the crap thickens up, the paint to air ratio falls and I get a sandpaper like finish.

Wondering if I should remove the miniature filter which filters the paint right before it goes into the nozzle- I filter the mixture before I put it into the pot on the gun, and I think the mini filter might be too fine for the primer and might be starving the supply of paint to the nozzle. The application rate right now with the paint flow adjustment all the way open is still so low that I can't get it to run or sag even if I try, but the the finish is so coarse that I have to sand it even where the panel is already flat. It's crazy, because this stuff is supposed to be ok with a 1.8 to 2 mm gun and I have a 2.3 mm gun- I should need to dial the paint flowrate back. Reducer in primer/surfacer would defeat the purpose, and it's not actually all that viscous when freshly mixed. So I'll block again tomorrow and hopefully I can get this gun working better!


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

Can you thin it down a bit - reduce the viscosity?

Because I have not been using "professional" equipment I always have to add a bit of extra thinners - just 10% seems to help a lot


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## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

I sprayed primer a little while back without that little strainer thingy in my gun, since I did not have a spare and the one I had was clogged up. I had already mixed in the hardener, so I went ahead with it. It did not seem to make any difference. I sometimes have similar problems with the material coming out too slow, but that usually tells me that the gun needs some love to get it flowing right again. Even when the primer is going on the way I like it to, there is still lotsa orange peel texture. I don't mind the texture as long as I can dump a lot of material onto the car.


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## Moltenmetal (Mar 20, 2014)

Turns out, if I want to mix another batch of primer after spraying a 300-400 mL batch, I need to not only flush out the gun and wash the reservoir with gun cleaner, I also need to pull and replace the little filter. No way I can go without the filter- too much debris can fall in from the threads of the lid which are a bugger to get clean. So I can pretty much shoot one batch and then have to clean the whole gun before spraying another, even though it's the same material. And a total disassembly of the gun when I'm done. What a bother! If I'd have known about this, I would have asked for the slow cure instead of the normal cure...


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## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

Depending on if my material is water based or solvent based, I will run acetone or water through my gun until it comes out clear after I am done spraying. After about 5 or 10 minutes, I will do it again, since there always seems to be a little more. I don't know if it is right or wrong, but I will place the air cap in the paint cup when I am getting ready to store the gun, and cover it with some acetone so that it is always submerged until next time I use the gun. I was taught this procedure in a US Navy paint school that I attended when I painted aircraft, but I don't know how common that practice is today. I went to that school back in the 1980s and we were still using siphon guns with the paint pot on the bottom. I still do the same thing on today's gravity feed hvlp guns and have very few problems, so evidently that old method wasn't bad. They also taught me to breathe through charcoal respirator cartridges with pre filters or with supplied air masks when spraying isocyonites and during the cure time. It's been 30 years and I am still at it, so those teachings were apparently pretty solid as well.


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## Moltenmetal (Mar 20, 2014)

Evmetro, my problems don't seem to be at the air cap or needle end- they seem to be worst on the little filter. I've had an airless spraygun for years which I used for wood finishing, and on that I was used to just feeding gun cleaner solvent through the gun until it blows clean, then putting a few drops of light machine oil in the gun and letting it drain through prior to storing. But with this crap and my $30 Princess Auto "Vaper" siphon feed HVLP gun, it seems like a total disassembly after every use and a good scrub of all parts with the plastic brush and solvent is the only way I can keep the flow going. The siphon mini-filter/strainer seems to be the culprit, but I can't keep the paint pot clean enough to eliminate it entirely.

It's OK for now- I'm hopefully close with the primer/surfacer, because I'm not buying another gallon! The thinner top-coat materials (I have a similar 1.4 mm gun for those) shouldn't be as much trouble- they at least should get through the in-gun strainer!

As to the isocyanates, all the 2K urethanes have some, but what protection is most effective depends on which kind. There are two: the prereacted "isocyanate homopolymer" and the free isocyanates like hexamethylene diisocyanate (HMDI), isophorone diisocyanate etc. The homopolymer form is ONLY present in droplets- it does not vaporize because these are big, heavy molecules. The latter does vaporize to some extent, making it more dangerous. You need respiratory protection with both, but it's far easier to filter out droplets than it is to filter out vapour. Shortly after you finish spraying, there are no more droplets around, but the vapour can persist until the ventilation takes it away. It's also way easier to keep droplets out of your eyes, ears and off the rest of your skin than it is to protect yourself against vapour exposure. So I consider the prereacted homopolymer materials to be a lot safer. Regrettably, my primer has free HMDI in it- less than a percent, but enough to worry me. 

Supplied air respirators are the safest method of respiratory protection because the system is 100% positive pressure on the fresh air side- if there is leakage, it's leakage of clean air out of the mask, not contaminated air into your lungs. That gives the respirator a higher "protection factor"- it reduces the amount of anything you are exposed to. To give you an idea, a supplied air respirator gives you a protection factor of around 2,000, meaning that on average (if it is fit tested and working properly) it reduces the amount of chemical you are exposed to by a factor of about 2,000 times versus breathing without any protection. A full face respirator with cartridges has a protection factor of only about 50x, and a half face respirator is about 10x, so you can see just how much better the SAR equipment is- and why with dangerous materials like isocyanates, these apparatus are recommended by the manufacturers of the paint to protect people who are painting for a living.

Of course a paint booth does wonders for reducing exposure as well. So you might be able to get by with a full or half-face respirator in a full paint booth, whereas you probably need SAR if you have only room ventilation.

I'm painting under room ventilation with a half face respirator- I have a full facer but because I wear glasses, it doesn't work for me...so working with isocyanates, particularly the free isocyanates, definitely concerns me! But I'm not doing it for a living, I have a properly fit tested respirator with good cartridges etc., and I try to get the room ventilation as high as I can. The limitation on that here in winter is how cold it is outside- I can't let the temperature drop too much in the room while I'm painting or else I'll have problems with the cure. Mind you, if I let it cool off more, maybe that will HELP retard the gunk from curing in my gun!


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## Moltenmetal (Mar 20, 2014)

Finally getting the hang of this spray gun business. Turns out the surface I was setting my mixing cup on was way off from level, and that was apparently enough for me to be adding too little cure. The paint cured just fine, so I had no clue- I thought I might have been using too much actually. The cure is way thinner than the resin, and when the mixture is right and the gun is clean, the material goes on well and lays flat without problems. Application rate went way up, making it far easier to put enough on the hood and trunk lid to get them reasonably flat. Still won't be nearly flat, but I think it wil be good enough for me! I was worried there for a bit...

The other issue was my gun cleaner solvent, which is a typical mixture of toluene and acetone. It works with scrubbing, but doesn't do a really good job of dissolving the paint because it is missing a key component- tert butyl acetate, which is the main solvent in the resin mixture. Regrettably that's not a common material. The gun cleaner can be used to flush out the pot on the gun, but it causes the resin to precipitate out in the filter, which is why I had to swap filters between batches of paint.

Think I've finally also settled on a finish colour. Wanted something from the Leyland original colour chart, for nostalgia and because at least there are colour matches in modern paint systems for those colours. It was a toss up between the original orangey red "pimento", ClintK's "inca yellow"' or an orange. There's an original yellow-orange called topaz, but we had to search up many pictures of cars painted that colour to decide if we liked it. My son Jacob's favorite colour us orange, I wanted something high visibility, and didn't want a third red car., so the orange yellow was a good choice. But it's one of those colours which looks different in different lighting, and some of the pics we saw looked too pukey for my liking...so we'll roll the dice, and see if we like the tint when it's on the car. 

Going with a single stage urethane, for a few reasons. My shop isn't clean enough and my technique is improving but still poor, so I'll likely have to colour sand and polish to get it looking decent and remove defects. Also fully expect to do some damage or have some problems crop up later, and it seems to me that the single stage should be easier to repair than base + clear. It's also cheaper, which matters when you might have to recoat it a few times while leaning!

Looks like it'll be sanding with 320 this week, then finish coat next weekend. Wondering if I should go back to my random orbit sander for that final 320 grit sanding, or if I should stick with my long block and then have to blend in the low spots that remain with a soft foam block. The random orbit may remove primer too fast, but my block technique is likely to leave stuff behind that will show through the final coat. Don't want to have to buy more primer...!


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## Moltenmetal (Mar 20, 2014)

Both Dupont and Valspar had trouble with the tint I wanted in a 2k urethane. The Valspar guy is having them do a colour match for me- the DuPont guys just told me to get lost...They both apparently have colour matches in another paint system, perhaps the old lacquers.

Will likely need to go over a tinted primer because there's little pigment and mostly dye in this colour apparently. So that'll be another litre of primer to spray, and another go-round of 320 grit sanding. So I won't get to see what this thing will look like until next weekend...

Will have to spend this morning cleaning up and sorting out the chaos in my shop. Stuff piles up when I'm perpetually in one phase of the job- it's been bodywork for months now, and the same thing happened when I was wiring.


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## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

Ooh... I can't wait to see it painted!


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## Moltenmetal (Mar 20, 2014)

Damn...put the last little bit of my gallon of primer surfacer on the car after about the fifth go-round of attempting to get the curve on the nose right, last-minute pinhole patching with glaze etc, and if I didn't get the air hose against the wet primer on the nose! Oh well, hopefully I can sand that mess out!


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## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

The great part of the bodywork and prep for paint portion is that you can screw things up, miss pinholes, miss dents, scratches or dings, but they are all fixable. Once you lay down your paint, you have committed a chunk of money that you can't get back if you need to go back and fix something. I can assure you that I miss stuff too, but my pics don't show what I have to go back to fix. I like showing off with my builds, but in have problems behind the scenes too.


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## Moltenmetal (Mar 20, 2014)

The errors in mine will be visible from a distance. It's tough to take a turd to a high polish! Especially the first time you've tried...but I'm confident it will look better than it has since I've owned it!


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## Moltenmetal (Mar 20, 2014)

Having fun doing other things, but still poking along on the car too. Just sprayed the last of my tinted primer on the few spots I'd inadvertent sanded through while doing my 320 grit final sand. So tomorrow and Friday will be spent cleaning the shop and car thoroughly, then the finish coat goes on Saturday. I'll very likely have to colour sand and polish, but will leave that until spring when I can do it outside. So from Saturday on, hopefully parts will be going onto the car to stay!


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## Moltenmetal (Mar 20, 2014)

The tinted primer has been sanded to 320 grit- tomorrow another thorough clean up and then the car is ready for the finish coat! It may be ready, but I'm not sure I am...I'm quaking in my boots! Never painted a car before...and this will be the first time working with my 1.4 mm nozzle HVLP gun. With bloody expensive paint...even a basic single stage 2k auto paint here is $100 per quart by the time you have catalyst and reducer...

Ready is another relative concept- I could have spent another month trying to perfect little defects or spraying on and then sanding off primer-surfacer, but at a certain point you just have to say "good enough" and move on!

The tinted primer surfacer was interesting stuff. It was an epoxy acrylic hybrid, which cost about as much as the urethane epoxy hybrid I used, but apparently has better adhesion and can be used as a sealer and direct to metal. Probably a better choice for my first coats over filler, bare steel patches and old sanded finish than what I used. It sanded pretty amazingly too, if you let it cure fully first. It wasn't near as thick as the other stuff so it was easier to spray to a nice finish, but not as high solids so didn't build as quickly. No isocyanate, so safer- but had a solvent and reducer that smelled like death...nasty, but a great signal to tell you if your respirator is working or leaking!


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## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

Sweet! I hope your paint goes smoothly!


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## Moltenmetal (Mar 20, 2014)

Ok EVMetro- one last question: do you go light on your first coat of finish, or do you go heavier to try to get it to smooth out? I'm of course worried, working with the thin paint fir the first time, so I'll probably err on the light side to avoid runs and sags- but if you go too light or travel too fast you get rough finish etc., right? Damn, it would sure help to have somebody knowledgeable here to walk me through this the first time 'round! Then again, colour sanding is a given so I could practically get away with painting tge thing with a roller...but I'm hoping for a good finish from the gun as a crowning achievement for all this hard work!


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## Moltenmetal (Mar 20, 2014)

Kiddo made me a very appropriate birthday card! I love it...


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## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

Moltenmetal said:


> Kiddo made me a very appropriate birthday card! I love it...
> 
> View attachment 36282


Cool card! 

Did you settle on single stage, or two stage?


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## Moltenmetal (Mar 20, 2014)

Single stage, and it's a solid colour. It can be clear coat topcoated if necessary, but I don't think I will bother. The sheet they test sprayed for me is beautifully glossy, and we'll see how long it retains its gloss. There are no doubt little rust monsters still growing inside some of the panels, so there's stuff more worrisome for the long term appearance of the car than the gloss of the paint!


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## 67BGTEV (Nov 1, 2013)

This is a great progress. You are getting there. Belated birthday wishes to you!!!!
I don't have time to prep, prime and paint and in CA, one can't spray paint outside or in the garage. I'm planning to hire some handyman outside the HD, sand, prime, prep and then take it to Maaco for painting. Hope it works out for me.


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## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

Single stage solid colors are a wise choice for a first timer. I still go that route occasionally, as seen in the white one that I am finishing now. I like to lay down a lighter first coat, and then a little wetter on the second. A third coat the same as the second is usually all in need.


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## Moltenmetal (Mar 20, 2014)

It's ORANGE! Topaz orange, an original '75 Spitfire and TR6 colour, though you rarely see any Topaz Spitfires- never seen one in the flesh before!









Orange, with lots of orange peel...appropriate to the colour I guess...wish I would have managed to get it to lie flatter, but am very pleased that I saw no runs or sags on my walk around the car just now.

When I was editing the pics, I noticed a lot of waviness in the photo and thought, "Oh NO, I did a terrible job of overlapping my passes!" I ran out there to check, and it turns out there is no tiger striping- the finish is great, except for the orange peel. The stripes in the photo are a reflection of the mezzanine above the car.

The colour is tough to render with a digital camera, especially with the mixture of tungsten, fluorescent and daylight on the car.









You can see the orange peel in the reflection of the fluorescent lights. But I'm pleased to say that I see no poorly blended transitions or anything like that at first glance. As much peel as there is, I'm very pleased!









The driver's side rear fender, which I patched. I'm very pleased with this!









Passenger rear isn't quite as perfect, but still really good as far as I'm concerned- this was a near-total reconstruction. I remember looking at the rust holes and thinking- how the hell am I going to repair this?









The driver's side was the worst- and here it is now. Very pleased indeed! Phew- time for a beer, but that will require me to dig my car out of a foot of snow to go to the beer store first...maybe I'll pour myself some bourbon instead!


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## Baratong (Nov 29, 2012)

Very impressive, looking very nice!


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## 67BGTEV (Nov 1, 2013)

Wow, you said this is your first time!


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## Moltenmetal (Mar 20, 2014)

Never painted a car before...and if I play my cards right, I'll never have to do it again! Thanks guys, I appreciate the support- I've been nervous as hell posting these pics! Total amateur hour here, but I've got a grin nearly as wide as when I drove the car for the first time in nearly 20 years!


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## Moltenmetal (Mar 20, 2014)

http://www.teglerizer.com/triumphcolors/1975_color_flyer_scaned_images.htm

The colour is not too far off this Triumph colour chip. Had to look at quite a few cars on line to see if I liked the colour.


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## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

Congrats! This is a great accomplishment! When you are out and about, people will ask "who converted this car?", and "where did you get it painted?" Molten, my personal feeling on this is that the whole project is even more rewarding than just not having to buy gasoline...


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## Vhclbldr (Feb 8, 2014)

EV, I concur wholeheartedly! My first creation, the IndyCycle was almost entirely my work - except for the final bodywork and paint, and the welding was completed by a master TIG welder. I am looking forward to being able to say my boys and I did all of the work on "baby".


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## Moltenmetal (Mar 20, 2014)

I'm pleased beyond words that the bodywork turned out as well as it did! The hood, my biggest worry, looks really great so far. I went over the car with a fine toothed comb on Sunday, stripping masking tape and scraping off overspray (should have done a more thorough job of masking!) and I was pleasantly surprised how few flaws jump out at me now through the shiny paint. Maybe the orange peel is hiding them! Actually, if the 'peel wasn't a dead giveaway for amateur work, I'd leave it- the texture is actually pretty awesome, and the gloss as sprayed is amazing!

I won't polish it until the spring when I can do it outside- the paint will be harder but I'll also be able to polish out the scratches I'll inevitably get in there just getting it back together. 

Thanks EVMetro for your kind word, and for your help with advice along the way- it was truly helpful and greatly appreciated!

Looking to get some 3M PerfectIt rubbing compound and swirl remover, and wondering if I can get away with using those on my old tail light lenses?

I too like the fact that I did this all myself- but then I look at you guys who built your own motor to transmission plates and couplings, built your own controllers etc.- and Duncan who built his Device from the ground up- and I'm thinking I took the easy way out and did basically nothing but a restoration! But I'm glad I spent the money- that motor mounting plate and coupling were a huge labour and worry savings, and I think they were money well spent! And the controller let me go AC which I really believe in. And spending that money was hard- I wasn't just fighting my natural DIY tendency- the tendency that had me design and build my own 2 storey addition to my house including my shop, doing all the trades except concrete floors and bricklaying- I was also fighting a lifetime of being a cheapskate. Overcoming that was actually worthwhile too!

Now to put this thing back together again- new soft top, new door skins, seats and lights cleaned up and back in, a panel between the rear battery pack and the passenger compartment,and a new mounting ring for the front of the motor to get rid of the sketchy 1/2" nuts that are acting as motor face spacers right now, and then it's off to be certified!


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## EVisa (Jun 30, 2014)

It looks very pretty. Well done! Sometimes you just have to think 'Yes I can' and simply go for it.


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## Moltenmetal (Mar 20, 2014)

Reassembling lights and various bits, and loose crimp connections and bad solder joints are going to be a pain in the ass going forward, I can tell...spent two hours hunting down the cause of a failure of my signal lights, which came down to a dirty solder joint on an old Lucas switch terminal and a bad crimp on a spade lug. Fortunately I bought a heavy set of crimping pliers which actually seem to work, and can throw away the pieces of crap I was struggling with while I was wiring the dash...oh well, what's a Leyland product with a reliable 12v system? Never seen one yet!

Getting excited- it's still brutally cold here, but the days are getting inevitably longer- got to get this car finished so I cn drive it this spring!


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## Baratong (Nov 29, 2012)

Great to hear you are getting it back together. I'd love to see a video of your first drive once it's all up and running.

I'm starting to race against time to get mine done before it gets too hot to work on it. Temps are in the high 70's/low 80's now (low to mid 20's C), and in another month and a half it'll start getting hot. From where I am now, if I continue to get time to work on it I'll be done by April.


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## Moltenmetal (Mar 20, 2014)

We're racing the opposite weather, you and I! My shop is a comfortable 14 degrees C now even without the bother of building a fire- ran out if seasoned wood around the time I started primer, and burned a lot of unseasoned wood just to keep ahead of the ventilation to paint the thing! Running the hydronic tubing in the floor pretty consistently.

Keep going, and posting pics, and remember to pm me and drop by if you're in Toronto- much better than pics! No Fat Tire here, but Creemore is pretty good...


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## Moltenmetal (Mar 20, 2014)

I have no intention to run a heater in the car, given it's a convertible and only a three season vehicle. But I need one for the safety inspection- a motor is optional here, not mentioned in the reg, but the heater must work to pass the safety inspection here. 

I was halfway through construction of a ceramic heater retrofit with a 7blade 12V muffin fan to drive it, but didn't like how much space it would take up under the dash or how inefficient the fan was at pushing air through the ducting. Rigging up something with a blower isn't easy with the square configuration of the heater, then a transition to two 1.5 in hoses...So for the safety I rigged up a hair dryer heater- very simple, and safe enough for its intended purpose, ie quickly defogging the windshield. It has a thermo switch and thermal fuse, though with the arcing I saw during testing I doubt they're of much use...The hairdryer runs just fine off my 106v pack DC, but I melted the relay I had installed for the heater- too little gap to extinguish the arc when the contacts open. The contactor I have in there now is perfect- tested it with the cover off and saw very little arcing when shutting off the heater. It has no DC rating on the case but is rated at 2hp at 230 VAC. My previous relay was rated for 230 VAC too, with a substantial current rating- but the gap between the contacts when open just wasn't up to the job. The new relay has two contacts in series and opens with a much wider gap.


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

Hi Molten
Is it a heater that is mandatory - or a way of demisting the windscreen?

I got around that by not having a windscreen!


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## Moltenmetal (Mar 20, 2014)

Not sure Duncan, but definitely don't want to be out in the rain without a windscreen! And besides, the one in my car is Royal Doulton...


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## Moltenmetal (Mar 20, 2014)

All the lights are working again, including the reversing lights. The windshield wipers took a solid day to get going- the stupid park switch on the motor failed, and the motor was frozen with rust. Wires under the dash are tucked up and wire tied as neatly as I could manage. The heater is in and working, but won't be used much beyond the safety inspection. Now it's time to put some oil back in the differential, seats and seat belts back in, a new soft top, interior door skins and interior trim, and the tranny cover to finally fit, finish and install. Then the new motor mount spacer, tires off, wheels painted, new tires, standing seam trim pieces polished or painted and reinstalled...so much left to do, and the weather is getting nicer every day now it seems!


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## N5329K (Jan 5, 2015)

Which soft top will you use? Mine is vinyl, and with a small tear from not getting stowed correctly. So off it goes.
Robin


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## Moltenmetal (Mar 20, 2014)

Vinyl, something called Easy On, which I hope is accurate...


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## Moltenmetal (Mar 20, 2014)

Good productive week and weekend, though you wouldn't notice it in the car- 

Got my motor mount redone- had to pull batteries to get at the motor plate. That motor is bolted SOLID now- no risk of anything coming loose, ever! Cut the aux shaft shorter, improved my tach pickup toothed wheel (possible because of the extra room between the battery box and the aux shaft's end). 

Marked the HV wires with orange tape. Pulled the rear pack out, remade the rear spring cover plate so it's flat (thanks Baratong!) and made a new plate for the front of the rear box to keep the batteries from jostling around.

Fixed the last few problems with my transmission cover- should be able to paint it and install it soon. Spliced and re-routed the speedo pickup wires so they don't foul the tranny cover.

Spent two hours of my life that I will never get back, on two bolts holding the two parts of my rear bumper together. Any time there's a bolt in a tubing sleeve, it's rusted so solidly that there's no way it's coming out except in pieces- requiring two hacksaw cuts and then cutting a head trapped by a bracket by bludgeoning it off with a ball pein and cold chisel to get each one out. Going to try to repair my rust-eaten rear bumper cover but also looking at the cost of a replacement- doubt it's in my pricerange so I hope the repair works out! And of course I lost the bolts for the front and rear bumpers- took them off in too much of a hurry during the painting process and didn't follow my procedure of putting them in a marked Ziploc bag...they're somewhere in my chaotic shop, but it will take another massive clean-up to find them!

Blasting the insides of all those bumper parts today at work- the bumper is literally designed to trap water and mud, so I need a good coating in there to replace the chrome which is of course long gone.


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## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

It is amazing the number of hours that get lost on stuff like those bolts. This is one of the things that I like to consider when I see a beautiful old car at a car show. The more time goes into a nice build, the less it looks like you did.


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## Moltenmetal (Mar 20, 2014)

So true...it is either a labour of love or an unhealthy obsession, and at this point I'm not sure which! But as the weather warms, my exhausted post-work self still has the juice to get back in there and work on the thing, so the motivation is worth something!


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## Baratong (Nov 29, 2012)

Hey, I'm in Toronto this week... would enjoy seeing your Spitfire! 
PM me.


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## Moltenmetal (Mar 20, 2014)

Just PMed you- figures that you'd try contact me while I myself am away! But looks like it might be able to work out!


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## Moltenmetal (Mar 20, 2014)

Met Baratong in real life yesterday- it was a genuine pleasure to speak with someone doing a very similar project. Mind you, he's working at a much higher level than I am! I think he will have exciting things coming up on his thread soon!


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## Moltenmetal (Mar 20, 2014)

Here's what the wee beastie looks like at the moment- I was pleased to have it out in the daylight but forgot to take any pics! I took it out for a quick spin with my nephew, a mechanical engineer, and my crazy BIL, his mechanic dad. Roads were totally dry- snow is gone- but we still need a couple good rains to wash away the salt.

Had to adjust one of the front fairings below the bumper as it was rubbing on my new tire. Other than that, it was a smooth ride- though quick as I wanted to get that fairing fixed before it did damage. Lots has been done - solid motor face mount installed, replacing those stupid spacer nuts, convertible roof bows sanded and painted and installed, rear chrome bumper cover repaired (it was rotted clean through so it took some very clever patching, and then I covered my repair with reflective tape- thought that was clever!- Chrome for these things is spendy if you can find it at all...) Bumpers polished, supports painted and all assembled, tranny cover painted and installed, seats and seatbelts back in, some of the trim is on, and I have a strategy for the inner door skins or at least I hope so. Wheels blasted and painted and new tires installed...very much looking like a real driveable car!

My BIL convinced me that I can't leave that old Spitfire trademark driver's side rear wheel sag, as characteristic of God car as it is...I'm giving up the thought of rebuilding the leaf spring with new buttons as another pointless struggle with rust- frozen fasteners, so I will get myself some rear air shocks instead so I can level the car. Oh, and he said he would flunk me on a safety because of my worn driver's side door hinge. Hopefully my guy will be less of an @ss than my BIL, who isn't licensed in province anyway.


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## Moltenmetal (Mar 20, 2014)

Very puzzled by what causes these IPad pics to insert upside down...only happens here, and when I click on the thumbnail in my post, it displays right side up...


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## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

I often have similar problems on my ipad. This is worth seeing right side up!


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## Moltenmetal (Mar 20, 2014)

Thanks EVMetro! Let's hope the car itself stays upright!


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## Baratong (Nov 29, 2012)

Hey, it was great seeing your Spitfire in person last week! You have a great high-quality build going there. 

I have a question that I meant to ask you when I was there -- Because I'm switching gears (literally!) on my drive train and going with a transmission, I've found that the space I have for a tranny in the Spit is quite limited. I read you have a Toyota transmission in yours, which model/year is it? I'd like to take a look to see how it might fit in mine?


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

Hi Baratong
The easiest thing to do is to simply cut the transmission tunnel out and make a new one
As it's all out of sight it's easy to make it look good


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## Moltenmetal (Mar 20, 2014)

Baratong, it was a genuine pleasure to meet and speak with you, and thanks for your kind words.

The tranny is a 1980 Celica RWD 5 speed.

Duncan, the car has no tranny tunnel- it's a dream car that way for motor/tranny swaps, having a full X frame and a wonderful cardboard/pressboard tunnel piece which screws to the firewall and the body bucket. You can buy replacements in ABS or polyethylene.m Mine was chewed by raccoons and damaged by water, and a little too small and short for the big 5spd. So I modified it with more cardboard and hot glue and then fibreglassed the whole thing with two layers of cloth and polyester resin, then topcoated it with my surface tolerant epoxy. Looks like I'm not all that skilled with fibreglass, so no boat making in my future, but it does the job very nicely.

We made one minor slice in the top of the frame to make clearance to get the angle right for the big 20R engine, but that probably wouldn't have been needed to mount the electric motor. We,had to slice out a little bit of firewall sheet metal too, but it fits nicely otherwise. Driveshaft was shortened a little, perhaps 4'", as the shifter is a bit farther back than it was originally on the Spitty.


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## Moltenmetal (Mar 20, 2014)

Baratong: the transmission bell housing flange is about 1.5 inches on the engine side of the top piece of the firewall, and the transmission itself is roughly 30 inches long from bell housing front flange to the transmission end of the driveshaft u joint. That's several inches longer than the original Leyland transmission.


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## Moltenmetal (Mar 20, 2014)

Working on several things- the soft top, wooden inner door skins etc. Waiting for a package of various remaining parts to arrive from Spitbits in California, then I should be off to have my safety done!

Took the car for a few brief spins around the neighbourhood because I just couldn't help myself...we had lovely weather Friday.


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## Dbenj (Apr 8, 2015)

Great work.. Just finished reading your post.. I'm speechless. By the way, your car is beautiful. Now you have one less red car!  I'm planning to start a conversion from my own. Still have lots to read and to learn. Hope to find more posts like yours around the forum! Keep up the good work!


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## Moltenmetal (Mar 20, 2014)

Thank you for the kind words! there are many builds here that put mine to shame. Best of luck with your planning!


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## Moltenmetal (Mar 20, 2014)

Minor setback...

Called the insurance company to update their quote to me, which they did. Called them back with the information to start my insurance, and the new agent asked me, "How much did you spend doing the conversion?" I answered honestly. After a long time on hold, I was told that the agent, checking with the underwriting department, was told that they would not insure the vehicle because the cost of the conversion made it a "performance modification"...

I told them that I did the conversion with a quote from them in hand, so there would be legal implications if they do not write me a policy at this point. Expecting a call back from the "customer care centre" people early next week...I got quotes from these guys twice, including one which is now valid and which I tried to accept...I was very clear and up-front with everything, and asked them to double check...

Hmm, better find a plan B insurance company! Any suggestions from other Ontarians of who to try?!


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## Moltenmetal (Mar 20, 2014)

Depressed about the insurance, and about my Spitbits shipment. $150 in shipping, tax and duty...I let the guy convince me that shipping it directly to me by USPS would be about as cheap as next day shipping it to my hotel room during a recent visit to the 'States. NOPE! Never again...but I do have new sun visors, seatbelts and the rear license plate marker lights on both sides have lenses and bulbs- and the marker light on the driver's side front has a chrome trim ring to match the rest. And my driver's side door has a hinge that it has needed since I bought the car...works like a charm now. A few other bits for later too, but worth nowhere nearly what I paid for them...

The big job today was making and installing wooden inner door skins to replace the destroyed vinyl ones. Took a lot of work, but I 'm pleased with the result. 

Got my soft top on at the rear and am stretching it over the bows overnight. Hopefully tomorrow will be another sunny day so I can continue stretching it in the sun which provides the most uniform heating. Otherwise it'll be a trip to the hardware store for some heat lamps...


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## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

Sounds like this build is still coming along pretty good. I can't wait for more pics!


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## Moltenmetal (Mar 20, 2014)

Ok EVMetro, a few more today as it was sunny and warm enough to install the soft top. Pics a little later of the wooden door skins- they're on the proper camera so will take more effort to upload.


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## Moltenmetal (Mar 20, 2014)

Another angle


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## Moltenmetal (Mar 20, 2014)

And another


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## Moltenmetal (Mar 20, 2014)

A few pics from earlier:

My motor face bracket and my four-slot encoder wheel which I use with an IR emitter/detector pair as my tach pickup:









I had a 1/2" thick spacer ring waterjet cut from steel, with a slot cut for the AC50 encoder cable, but I had to split that ring in half again because I didn't have the space to assemble it as a whole ring.









Half my trouble was that the AC50 has 1/2" NC threaded holes, but the kit I received from CanEV had 7/16" bolts- which FIT in those holes, just not tightly, and [email protected] here didn't notice! D'oh! I replaced all of them with the correct 1/2" NC bolts and with this spacer plate, now my motor is mounted solid as a rock! Transmission shifter doesn't move at all with 500 A of forward current or 200 A of regen.









The doorskins consist of vinyl-wrapped Masonite pressboard- not even the good tempered stuff, just cheap crap wrapped with cheap vinyl- don't know if these were original or not, but they got wet and destroyed during storage.









I made a replacement of the inner doorskin from Masonite again, but this time I coated it on both sides with a generous amount of Danish oil before installing it. It has lots of cut-outs for bolt or screw holes and other features- it serves to flatten out the door panel to make it easier to fit something more or less flat over top. Here it is on top of my outer doorskin.









I used 1/4" thick marine grade teak plywood intended for use in boats for my dash- two pieces laminated together to make the dash. Minimum order was 1/2 sheet, so I had just enough to make two doorskins from this. Unfortunately it is VERY stiff, so I had to cut some sawkerfs about 1/2 way through it every 1/4" or so at two points in order to allow it to flex enough to fit the curvature of the door. Even so, this requires quite a bit of force to hold it flat, which is beyond the limits of the hidden fasteners which normally hold on the doorskin.


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## Moltenmetal (Mar 20, 2014)

I think this was during a check fit prior to finishing- with a couple coats of tung oil on the teak, it looks great and pops the grain quite nicely.









As the hidden fasteners weren't up to the job, I used screws with finish washers. Personally I like the look. Now all I need is something to finish the edges of the plywood. Too narrow, and I'm far too lazy, to iron on banding and try to trim it all, so I'm thinking about trim options. The door will get a rubber gasket that the door sill seam is missing. One thing is sure- I won't be buying this from Spitbits unless I happen to be travelling to the 'States to pick it up!









I used an EZ-on soft top, which I though originally was an ironic brand name since it neither came with instructions nor do they give ANY instructions on-line, saying the top is to be installed "by professional installers"- give me a break!- but in fact it was pretty easy after all. It has the snaps pre-installed so as long as you get the mounting plate at the rear centred and glued properly, the rest of the installation is pretty simple. 

It does need some stretching to get the top smooth and reasonably wrinkle-free, but my bows are bent and nowhere near perfect anyway so it's pretty nearly as wonky as my door and hood joint fit-ups on the car. Again this car was never a real restoration candidate and I do not have the patience or skill to mess with the panel fitting like EVMetro! A couple hours with the bungees to stretch it in the (comparatively) hot sun today and it was ready to install. My pop riveter got a workout, putting all the replacement snaps on the body and bows. I was using 4-40 nuts as spacers because my pop riveter doesn't have a narrow head and can't get into the snaps or gasket channel so the rivet will snug everything up tight- that was pretty important as without the spacers my rivets left things too sloppy.


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## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

Sweet, those pics make my day! A beautiful car, it's an EV conversion, and it was built by its owner! Do you realize just how rare and beautiful this is?


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## Baratong (Nov 29, 2012)

I really like how your door panels turned out! Looks very nice.


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## Moltenmetal (Mar 20, 2014)

Interesting experience just now: took the car for a longer trip, still in the immediate environs of the neighbourhood. Drove down a heavily rutted/potholed street, and hit a particularly hard bump and BAM, the car went dead! Controller wouldn't turn on, but I clearly still had the batteries connected and the whole 12V system was working fine. So I popped the hood and had a look around- nothing shaken loose. Then I started running over the circuitry in my mind...what is in series with the main control power to the controller? Fuses, the "don't drive away while plugged in for charging" interlock...Oh yeah, the inertial switch! Pressed the switch back in and we were off and running again...

Not sure I want that switch to be so sensitive though! We may have bottomed out the driver's side front suspension on that rut, but we were nowhere near the impact of an accident. Might want to re-route that switch to the dashboard, so I can push it back in again if it false trips without having to leave the car and pop the hood...


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## samwichse (Jan 28, 2012)

Is the inertial sensor omnidirectional? Perhaps its mount angle needs to be rotated 90 degrees to the front or something?


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## Moltenmetal (Mar 20, 2014)

Omnidirectional in that impacts in any direction seemed to trip it when I was dry testing it prior to installation, but it is definitely not the same sensitivity in all directions,, and I've mounted it vertical which was Randy at CanEV's recommendation. Think I will rotate it horizontal and see what happens. It feels like a ball bearing in a seat, which would seem to be better in the vertical, but I don't have any specs on the switch so it's tough to know what to do other than mount it where it is accessible to the driver so it can be reset. Will do some Googling and see if I can figure it out!


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## Moltenmetal (Mar 20, 2014)

Googling indicates vertical upward is right. I have mine attached to the side if my junction box, but obviously this is too jiggly a location for it- must mount it to the firewall directly. Rework...!


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## samwichse (Jan 28, 2012)

Maybe when you remount, use rubber spacers on both sides of the firewall bolts to prevent the transmission of the sharp but small chassis shocks.


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## Moltenmetal (Mar 20, 2014)

Based on how much the ride improved when I replaced the rear shocks this weekend, I'm going to replace the front ones too which will help reduce the impacts this thing is sensing. The shocks I replaced seemed to be working when I removed them from the car, but the new ride is no comparison to the old- much smoother. But the more I think about it, mounting it somewhere accessible without popping the hood is probably a good idea anyway. The front A post between the door and the front footwell is where I'm thinking, as I saw videos of Ford cars with electric fuel pump inertial switches mounted in this location.


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## Moltenmetal (Mar 20, 2014)

Went to the Ancaster British car show and swap meet today with the kiddo and saw some inspiring cars. Regrettably it would be beyond my range so we took the Prius. Didn't buy much, and there was no real opportunity to sell either- I have a bunch of Spitfire stuff I don't need and would like it to go to a good home! On the way back, I bought new springs and shocks for the front of the car. Removing these, I think I discovered one of the problems- driver's side lower shock rubber was destroyed. It was still on there, but not doing much...fortunately the guy I bought the parts from will compress the springs for me - the new ones are bruisers, and they have to go a long way to fit!


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

Hi Molten
Why are you going stiffer on the springs?
I would have thought that you would want the same stiffness - unless you went a lot heavier

I understand replacing the dampers - but springs don't lose stiffness - they can sag a little - but then you would want new springs of the same stiffness (or spacer plates)

Soft dampers can cause your suspension to crash into the bumpstops - and can be mistaken for either soft or hard springs


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## Moltenmetal (Mar 20, 2014)

These are apparently just straight replacements Duncan, not intended for lowering the drive height, which I can't tolerate anyway- they were definitely shorter in uncompressed length but made with heavier wire than another spring he had in stock, but both are '75 Spitfire replacements. I count 12 coils on the new ones vs 11 on the originals. The guy I bought them from will compress them and install them in the assembly for me and I will get him to double check.

I think my main problem was the lower mount rubber on the driver's side shock, but it was high time for new shocks anyway, if the improvement on the rear I just experienced is any indication! The two assemblies are in this pic with the new spring beside it.









Think part of the problem with the inertial switch was that a few of my bolts on my controller/charger mounting plate had rattled loose, which I discovered when I had to remove a few to get access to remove the shock/spring assemblies. Will be putting nyloc (damned autocorrect!!) nuts on those this time, and with the new shocks it might just let me leave the switch where it is currently mounted.


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## Moltenmetal (Mar 20, 2014)

I rotated the driver's side unit (middle) so you can see that not only was the rubber toast, with its sleeve pushed off centre through the deteriorated rubber, but the lower shock mount is bent too. Definitely new stuff here will be better...


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

Hi Molten
Having designed springs in the past and seen a huge amount of nonsense from "spring experts" I tend to be a bit paranoid about the subject

"thicker wire" worries me a bit - spring rate is the fourth power of wire thickness
(but thicker paint is not a problem)
But the extra coils will reduce spring rate by 11/12 - hopefully it's a wash

Have you had a really good look at your wishbones?
That bend could be accident damage - can't think of anything else that would do that


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## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

The spring rate stays the same for a given wire size, so more or less coils add or subtract height. I figured out a way to dial in different characteristics by using to different coils with different wire sizes. I have done a lot of coil trimming and replacing to get my ride handling right. I doubt that this is very popular, but here is how I set mine up. The rear is the same concept as this front strut, but the shock is mounted elsewhere. You would be surprised how much tuning you can do with this set up. Duncan, you probably understand...











.


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

evmetro said:


> The spring rate stays the same for a given wire size, so more or less coils add or subtract height. I figured out a way to dial in different characteristics by using to different coils with different wire sizes. I have done a lot of coil trimming and replacing to get my ride handling right. I doubt that this is very popular, but here is how I set mine up. The rear is the same concept as this front strut, but the shock is mounted elsewhere. You would be surprised how much tuning you can do with this set up. Duncan, you probably understand...
> .


Using extra springs is a good idea
I have a little difficulty with 
_The spring rate stays the same for a given wire size, so more or less coils add or subtract height._
If you remove coils you increase the spring rate
So going from a 10 coil spring to a 9 coil spring will give you an 11% increase in spring rate
I suspect you understand this - just not too clear in the words
You also need to avoid the spring reaching its "free length" before the suspension reaches full droop

INHO people tend to go too hard on spring rates 

Older sports cars (especially British ones) tended to have stiff suspension because the suspension geometry was awful
Bu using stiff springs you limited travel and didn't use the bad bits of the suspension travel
That was OK when competing with similar cars - but against something like a Lotus with good geometry and soft springs you lost

Spitfires have pretty damn good front suspension geometry

The back....

The Mk4 with the center pivot spring was OK the others.... not so good


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## Moltenmetal (Mar 20, 2014)

If there's damage to the driver's wishbone Duncan then it's very subtle. Everything looks and moves just fine. That drivers side damper definitely took damage from a pothole or the like, but if it damaged anything else it's not immediately apparent. If I can't get the thing to sit prettier after the new springs and shocks are in, the same guy is doing an alignment for me (eventually!) so I'll get him to check it out.

I've heard that concern about the rear suspension on the swing-spring Spitfires like mine, but never experienced any issues even with the bad old shocks. Then again I'm not anywhere nearly pushing the limits of it nor am I interested in doing so.


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

Hi Molten
If the new unit fits OK then you should be OK
I still have difficulty imagining how the old one got bent without doing something horrible to the bottom wishbone

As far as the rear end is concerned - they weren't bad unless you drove like a hooligan (Guilty your honour) 

But if you are not going to drive like that slightly softer suspension would be better

It was the Spitfire's elder cousin the TR6 that was so stiff it rattled your teeth


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## Moltenmetal (Mar 20, 2014)

I'll take a close look at both the lower wishbone and the antisway bar to see if they've been tweaked. The guy I'm buying the parts from will have a good look when he does the alignment, and of course he will recommend I spend a whole lot more money on parts...

The car will do far more performance-wise than I will ever ask of it. It corners like it's on rails, on level terrain at least. No autocross in my future for sure- I never was a performance driver and certainly haven't turned into one as I've gotten older! But it's always a thrill to have the car go where you point it and go there quick when you stomp on the accelerator!

I should have done all this work earlier in the project but I needed proof of concept before it was worth the cost. Now that I have it, I'm happy to spend yet more quality time on my back working on this stuff. I need new rear spring bushings etc.- in fact I really should renew every piece of rubber in that suspension. Regrettably the 

Man, I wish this was a TR6! Nicer car, although it doesn't have the fenders come up with the hood/bonnet. I saw some Jaguar E-types at the show and remarked to the one owner that "this is what my Spitfire wants to be when it grows up!". Out of my price range though!


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

Hi Molten

Have you driven a TR6? - they look good but we used to call them "the fastest tractors in the west"

A Spitfire drives much nicer!


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## Moltenmetal (Mar 20, 2014)

There I go, making assumptions based on looks, and specs...story of my life! nope, never had the chance to drive one! Glad to hear it, Duncan, in a backhanded way! Geez, I could easily have ended up trashing my Spit for a TR6 out of fear of bodywork!


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## Moltenmetal (Mar 20, 2014)

As I said, I'm currently spending quality time being a real grease monkey. Spent this evening cleaning and painting the area normally hidden by the shocks and springs, then removing and degreasing the front wheel bearings, which oddly are set into the brake rotors on this car. One wheel bearing has a tine missing from one of the roller race cages which let one of the rollers loose to drop into my degrease bucket, so it needs replacement. Fortunately, Jan Szott sold me a set of both front rotors and wheel bearings, so no new cost on these parts. The spindles, or what my book calls the stub axles, are both ok.

The driver's lower wishbone is indeed tweaked, but only in a very subtle way. Everything is free to move nicely and there is only a wee bit of minor play in the lower trunnion- everything else, even the rubbers, are actually in pretty good shape. Passenger side is perfect as far as I can tell. 

Should get the spring/shock assemblies back Thursday and will see how they go back in.


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

Hi Molten

One of my friends had a GT6 (Spitfire with the 6 cylinder engine) and later a TR6
He completely rebuilt the TR6 - did a superb job
Then we spent ages trying to make it nice to drive before giving up - it was meant to drive like that!
Great acceleration but a tooth rattling ride and uncertain behavior on the corners
And this is a long term mini enthusiast (me) complaining about the ride!


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## Moltenmetal (Mar 20, 2014)

Never driven a GT6 either, but I'm sure they were much more exciting than Spitfires given the 6 cyl engine. They probably had at least half a hope of the engine lasting a while too. 

That 1496 cc engine in the Spitfire 1500 was a total piece of crap from a reliability standpoint. Mine kept wearing thrust washers out of the (front?) main bearing and dropping them into the pan...Some people who like this rotten engine have actually installed limit switches on the end float of the crankshaft, to give early warning that the thrust washers are worn and about to fall out. Others have gone to a solid thrust washer retrofit design so it can't fall out- but of course requiring a huge amount of headache to replace it if (when!) it wears out. But the biggest issue what the lack of a full 5 spd tranny for the car- the OD 4 spds were very rare and are highly prized now by people that want to keep that atrocious engine. 

Wow, that TR6 sounds like a huge disappointment...very glad that my conversion didn't work out that way!


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

The Spitfire engine is not a great one but it shouldn't wear out thrust washers, they should still be OK when the engine is done (100,000 miles)
There must have been some other fault

The GT6 was quite nice it was a Mk3 - had the same rear suspension as the Mk4 Spitfire

Which was actually a good suspension layout,
On the GT6's the Mk1 was horrible, the Mk2 was good but a bit complex
We all thought the Mk3 was a step backwards but it ended up better than the Mk2

The six cylinder was a good engine - very fast by 70s-80's standards - slow by modern standards

People were always mistaking it for a Spitfire and demonstrating that their escort was much faster - 
Well trying to demonstrate that - which was fun when we had a 2 liter six instead of a 1500cc four

I was thinking that I was being unfair to the TR6 - but I wasn't 
Mini's have a notoriously harsh ride but that TR6 was a tooth rattling bone shaker
Fast though
And it did look good


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## Moltenmetal (Mar 20, 2014)

In hindsight, what was wrong with the engine was mostly me- I thought you could drive the thing at 120 km/h with the engine revving a steady 4200 rpm for hours on end and expect it to last, as if it were a Honda 4-cylinder. No such luck...


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## Moltenmetal (Mar 20, 2014)

New shocks and springs went in, and off the jack it sat really nice. Regrettably after riding for a while and sitting overnight, it was apparent that my ride height at the front, which was too low to start with, had decreased even further...apparently, some replacement shocks have the spring pockets set at a different elevation than the originals. So I had to make some spacers for the place where the cool/shock assembly bolts to the frame support bracket. Did that and the ride height seemed to be better, but we'll see tomorrow. 

Got my first 100 EV miles on the thing, and I'm at a solid 260 Wh per mile at between 50 and 60 mph on the highway, and over the past 40 or so miles the average is about 260 Wh per mile in combined city/highway driving, all with the top down. Still have only off pedal regen and it is limited to 100A so I have a little room for improvement yet. Motor and controller temperatures are both quite comfortable but the weather here is still brisk- we'll see what happens when it gets hotter out.

Got a loose wire in my E-Expert's connections again- the terminal strip on that thing is terrible- and suspect the high voltage fuse blew on my DC to DC converter. Good news is that without headlights, my aux battery lasts for a LOT of driving!


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## Moltenmetal (Mar 20, 2014)

Note that the Wh/mile is calculated at my pack's nominal 105 V, which assumes that any voltage sag is due to losses such as ohmic resistance in the wires and connections and internal resistance in the cells.


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## Moltenmetal (Mar 20, 2014)

Chased down the minor wiring issues behind the dash- E-Expert, Lee Hart bridge both working again. DC to DC problem was just a spade lug that wiggled loose. Hoping that my workmanship on the wiring isn't going to be an ongoing problem...but minor things aside, everything has been pretty stable and had plenty of shakedown now. Time for some longer trips!


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## Moltenmetal (Mar 20, 2014)

Finally have a working latching BMS HVC interlock for my charger. Tested and away to the races! Now you need to cycle the key switch to get the charger to restart after any one cell goes into HV alarm.


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## Moltenmetal (Mar 20, 2014)

EV stuff is working famously, though the ride is still too harsh for the inertial switch to handle reliably. Running a steady 250 Wh/mile- solid and stable and lots of fun! But can I get the stupid brake lights to work consistently? NO...back in there to find out why!


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## EVisa (Jun 30, 2014)

It's so great to hear you are up running (and doing well!). Many congratulations, you make many of us still in the process jealous 

Can you tell us more about the brake light issues? Are you talking about the stock brake light wiring (I assume there is a switch somewhere under the steering wheel), or about brake light issues during regenerative braking?


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## Moltenmetal (Mar 20, 2014)

Nope- I had it figured out in about 45 minutes- there was a short in one of the bulb sockets that was intermittent and so difficult to trace- blew fuses and then didn't...also a few more bad crimps.

I figure that the car didn't turn on the brake light when I used to do engine braking by gearing down, so I did not enable the Curtis controller brake light function. When I switch to pedal slack regen I might reconsider.


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## Moltenmetal (Mar 20, 2014)

Big milestone today: drove it to work for the first time! 37.7 miles actual, 37.1 miles on my odometer, coming in at roughly 250 Wh/mile (87.6 Ah x 105 V nominal pack voltage). The drive is a short burst of stopsigns for a km or so, followed by an uninterrupted trip on the highway at 55-60 mph. Top and windows down all the way, so lots of drag- and a chilly drive since this morning was only 7 C. 

The peak motor temp I saw was about 44 C when I stopped for coffee near work, and the controller temp was only 22 C. Even on a hot day I think I'm going to be satisfied with these temperatures. My trip is flat, so the motor isn't getting anywhere nearly as hot as 67BGT is experiencing with his on his hilly trips. 

The trip home will be more interesting- at least half the trip is stop and go typically.

The car is very stable, though I was nervous this being my first truly continuous long drive. You feel VERY exposed in a Spitfire on a major highway- you are the smallest thing on the road by far, so low that you feel like you're on a sport bike or practically a go-cart...as transports and SUVs and pickups whizz by you, washing you with a blast of the air they're pushing out of their way...you really get a sense of the power these vehicles are so effortlessly using when you're watching your ammeter and Ah gauge...

No alignment yet, but the car does not pull at all- it tracks beautifully. The front suspension is still a little too low for my liking but I can fix that later. Probably want heavier springs, because putting additional spacers under the top of the shock/spring strut assembly would be a lot of work...

I fitted inner fenders last night, made from sheets of 1/8" EPDM rubber. That way they will keep water off my controller and motor during a rain, but cannot chafe my wiring or bottom out on my suspension.

EV grin a mile wide, showing the car off to my co-workers!


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## 67BGTEV (Nov 1, 2013)

Wow! Congratulations!! Great to hear the success story.
~40 mile one way is really nice. We both have a similar commute. Enjoy your ride and share more details..



Moltenmetal said:


> Big milestone today: drove it to work for the first time! 37.7 miles actual, 37.1 miles on my odometer, coming in at roughly 250 Wh/mile (87.6 Ah x 105 V nominal pack voltage). The drive is a short burst of stopsigns for a km or so, followed by an uninterrupted trip on the highway at 55-60 mph. Top and windows down all the way, so lots of drag- and a chilly drive since this morning was only 7 C.
> 
> The peak motor temp I saw was about 44 C when I stopped for coffee near work, and the controller temp was only 22 C. Even on a hot day I think I'm going to be satisfied with these temperatures. My trip is flat, so the motor isn't getting anywhere nearly as hot as 67BGT is experiencing with his on his hilly trips.
> 
> ...


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## Moltenmetal (Mar 20, 2014)

Drive home was, bar none, the most enjoyable time I've spent in stop and go traffic on that route from work that I've been driving for the past 19 years...

It was about 20 C on the trip home- much more comfortable. Motor hit 57C and controller hit 37C. Don't think I'll need additional cooling, but we'll see in July!

225 Wh per mile in heavy stop and go with a few patches where I could travel at 60 mph for a few minutes at a time, and whole stretches crawling along below 20 mph, or surging between 30 and dead stop...Very glad of the colour's high visibility, the working horn, and the comfort of my Miata seats!

Also thanking my lucky stars for regen...

Still seeing mismatches between the Ah required to recharge and the Ah counted during the drive. I've started monitoring the charger input with a kill-a-watt meter, and I know the charge time and current with decent accuracy too, so I will calculate which one is more accurate. It always takes less to recharge than the EE Pro says I've used, by somewhere in the 8 to 11 Ah range. Will have to check to see that the EEPro didn't reset itself and forget my parameters or something...the power to the unit was list briefly because of its sketchy terminal block, but I've fixed that now, and I'm sure it must have nonvolatile memory...


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## Baratong (Nov 29, 2012)

Congratulations! Very exciting you are able to commute with your Spitfire now after so much work!


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## Moltenmetal (Mar 20, 2014)

So gratifying- thanks guys! I won't be able to do it routinely for a bit still, and then we'll be into hot sticky weather...but I will keep you informed!


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## 67BGTEV (Nov 1, 2013)

Yep, it's very gratifying. Just to drive year round, I bought the coupe. I'm lucky to be in SF BAY.


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## Vhclbldr (Feb 8, 2014)

I am about a year behind where you are, but slowly moving forward with my El Camino project. I have enjoyed reading about your progress and hope to post some more of my own (other than bodywork) in a few months. Time, of course, is in short supply, but the summer may help with that.


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## Moltenmetal (Mar 20, 2014)

67BGT- you're lucky to be there for many reasons! The California drive toward EVs is responsible for where we are now, and it seems that it is kept up with a regulatory tolerance of conversions. Here, they keep wishing we'd just shrink back through the floorboards, save our money and buy Teslas...


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## Moltenmetal (Mar 20, 2014)

The car is driving marvellously, on the short trips I put in. My wife is finally warming up to it! Unbelievable...

Of course now I'm starting to worry about any little rattle or noise in the car, and there are plenty... suspicious that the Leyland evil spirits which once possessed this car will come back after lulling me into a false sense of security. 

Front suspension is still too low, but I have rolled the inside lips of the front fenders and have my local parts guy looking for heavier springs. Everything is old of course except the springs and shocks, but it all seems tight enough. There's a wee bit of wear on the driver's side lower trunnion but it's not enough to worry about for now. 

Turns out I have a steel case W50 transmission, which came from vehicles capable of my 120 ft-lbs of torque and even more and which is apparently one that people seek out for engine swaps. Checked the oil level and needed to drain some, now that I've figured out which was the fill/drain port- filling thought the stick shifter hole was easier so I topped it up through there- guessed pretty accurately as I was only about 200 mL too full. Checked all the u-joints- they seem to be all permanently lubricated types an are all free of play. 

Would take it for a quick boot, but I'm trapped behind the Prius C- with a wheel off, because of sidewall damage to one tire. Must have clipped the corner of the raised garden at the side of the driveway. I can see cords in the cut, so the tire is beyond repair. Apparently Canadian Tire should be called Canadian No Tires In Stock, as my fairly common tire size is out of stock at all Toronto locations - and nobody decent is open Sundays here...with rain in the forecast, I'll be taking the bigger car to work on Monday.


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## Moltenmetal (Mar 20, 2014)

A few more accurate calcs, for those without an aversion to math...

First the stats: sources in brackets{}

Ontario power grid 9.24% natural gas, balance nuclear and renewables. Zero coal. That's a year round average- spring through fall is better at 7.85% fossil. {IESO Mar 2014-Mar 2015}. CO2 emissions are 40 g per kWh at 9.2% nat gas { Gridwatch}

Efficiency chain, power plant to stored energy available from battery: 82%
(6% grid loss {IESO} charged for at 3.6% of delivered kWh {Toronto Hydro} x 93% charger efficiency {ElCon, verified by my kill-a-watt and ammeter} x 94% battery efficiency {thousands of measurements by Darren Sims, P. E. On his LFP pack (Acdeltawye) reported here}

Conventional gasoline efficiency chain: 81.4% well to tank on an equal BTU basis (I'll call this EBB), treating a BTU thermal as equal to a BTU electric when used in production (98% production, 84.5% refining, 98.4% distribution/transport {all from GM/Argonne WTW study 2001} 99.86% evaporation ie. 0.14 % uncaptured evaporative losses{Env Canada}. Compare with European estimate of 82% {EU JRC WTW Study 2014}

2583 g CO2 per U.S. Gal from above losses {GM/ANL 2001}. 8887 g CO2 emitted per gal by combustion only {USEPA/USDOT Joint figure, groundtruthed by calc using C8H18}. CO2 equivalent efficiency well to gas tank is therefore really only 77.5%- I'll call this equal CO2 basis or ECB

100 km trip basis:

Original Spitfire- 8L/100 km {EPA}, 24.3 kg CO2 WTW, 253 MJ energy from tank 312 MJ WTW EBB, 327 MJ ECB

Prius C: 4.5 L/100 km summer {my measurements}, 13.6 kg CO2 WTW, 142 MJ from tank, 175 MJ EBB, 184 MJ ECB

E-Fire: 250 battery Wh/mile (my measurements), 0.76 kg CO2 plant to wheels, 55.9 MJ from battery, 68 MJ plant to wheels

The E-Fire reduces CO2 emissions by 96.9% relative to pre conversion and by 94.5% relative to my awesome Prius C hybrid. It produces negligible toxic emissions relative to either.

It uses 21% of the source energy (ECB) of the preconversion car and 37% of the ECB source energy of the Prius C.

Assuming one daily on peak charge at work and one at home off peak at night, including all fees and taxes, cost of electricity is $0.19/kWh - yes, those renewable FIT contracts are costing us on our hydro bills... Including all losses that's $3.66/100 km. At last fill up price of $1.14//L including taxes, gasoline would be $9.12 for preconversion and $5.13 for the Prius C, both per 100 km. prices here hit an all time peak of about $1.40/L for comparison.

Battery replacement loses the day for the conversion though, on a purely financial basis. My 18.5 kWh pack cost $8000 CDN and will last 3000 cycles at 70% DOD if Sinopoly's data sheet is to be believed. Even assuming full distance (83 km at 70% DOD) between charges, that's $3.20 per 100 km, all up front. Payback against the preconversion car is very long, and against the Prius C is never. Put a $150 / tonne carbon tax on gasoline though and now we're talking!


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## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

It is really nice that you keep these updates going on your thread, because I love keeping up with your build. I am guessing that my stats are somewhere in the ballpark as yours, and my main way of tracking stats is noticing that I don't spend much for fuel, so thanks for the stats!


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## Moltenmetal (Mar 20, 2014)

You started with a car bred for efficiency, and you've made it stellar- mine doesn't hold a candle EVMetro!

Just getting ready for a talk to my son's class- they're doing a unit on energy forms and conversion etc, so I think a tour of the car will be right up their alley, assuming the science teacher is receptive ( and it happens before they go on strike...!). Going to talk about people, then horses, then steam, and then the environmental solution to the horse in big cities- the electric car, then the IC engine car...how much work for how much fuel etc. now the electric car comes back, after 100 yrs or so!


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## Moltenmetal (Mar 20, 2014)

BTW a carbon tax at $150/tonne would add $3.53 per 100 km to the original car, paying for 100% of my battery replacement even at the bloated $8k I paid for my pack. A $2000 Chevy Volt pack in good condition out of a crash would of course look a LOT nicer in that comparison!


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## Moltenmetal (Mar 20, 2014)

Ok, I'm not hallucinating- that damned EEPro gauge DID reset the Peukert coefficient back to its stupid default of 1.25 all by itself, even though all the other parameters are right where I left them...I'm seriously wondering if the Leyland demons have taken up residence in my otherwise marvellous and unreasonably expensive Ah gauge?! Looks like I'll have to check that every time I synchronize the gauge after a charge until I'm confident the demons have left for good!

So all my recent Ah measurements are wrong...we'll see just what my real power consumption is on my next trip to work. It appears that with the wrong Peukert exponent, the EEPro's estimate during discharge minus regen is roughly 10% more than its estimate of the Ah put back in during a recharge at 12 A.


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## Moltenmetal (Mar 20, 2014)

Car drove beautifully to work and back again. If my EEPro is to be believed, still getting excellent economy in the 250-260 Wh/mile range, even at near steady 60 mph. Still to scared to go faster than that!

Regrettably, I'm STILL having problems getting charge and discharge Ah measurements on my EEPro to match!

Will post over on the batteries and charging forum, resurrecting an old thread, to try to get more advice.


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## The Toecutter (May 30, 2010)

Moltenmetal said:


> Car drove beautifully to work and back again. If my EEPro is to be believed, still getting excellent economy in the 250-260 Wh/mile range, even at near steady 60 mph. Still to scared to go faster than that!


In 2004, when I simulated a potential open-top 1970 Triumph Spitfire MkIV conversion with an 820 lb 240V pack of Exide Orbitals and ADC 9" motor, with tires that had a 0.0085 Crr, I calculated that a steady 60 mph would require 240 Wh/mile. This car has a Cd of 0.42 and frontal area of 15.2 sq ft. This setup was expected to weigh ~2,450 lbs.

Your results are reasonably close to that.

Similar to this proposal I simulated is Daniel Busby's Spitfire MkIII. It needs 225 Wh/mi at 60 mph, measured, and is using a WarP 9" motor. It weighs in at 2250 lbs. The MkIII has a 0.39 Cd and 14.9 sq ft area.

Your measured results are also reasonably close to that.

250 Wh/mi highway is as good as a Nissan Leaf. It's more than 1000 lbs heavier than your Spitfire and has slightly less drag. That's a good accomplishment, as you bested the auto industry on efficiency.

The potential exists for your car to do much better, however.

Reverend Gadget's GT6-bodied Spitfire needed about half that to do a steady 60 mph judging by his quoted amp draw. It had a GT6 MkIII body, some sort of salt-flats racing oriented LRR tires with a 0.006 Crr, ADC 6.7" motor, and a 615 lb Exide Orbital lead acid pack. With a total rider+passenger weight of 300 lbs, it was at the 2350 lb GVWR. The GT6 Mk III supposedly had a Cd of 0.32 and a frontal area of 15.2 sq ft. Reverend Gadget added a grille block and front belly pan for aeromods. He zeroed out the camber/castor/toe alignments and adjusted his brakes to reduce parasitic and rolling drag, and used a low viscosity gear oil for his retained Triumph Spitfire transmission and differential. His heavy lead acid pack had a usable 4.2 kWh available energy to 100% DoD, and when on the highway at mixed speeds between 55 and 65 mph with some braking and very gentle acceleration, he claims that got him 30 miles range. That's 140 Wh/mi in "real world" highway conditions with attention paid to driving efficiency and lots more attention paid towards making the chassis more efficient! His transmission, driveshaft, differential, and U joints are too weak to handle the torque, and he's destroyed components thanks to his 1,000A Zilla HV. It did 0-60 mph in under 6 seconds and topped out at 125 mph.

My conversion has a Prestolite MTC4001, Soliton 1, and 192V CALB CA100FI pack. My GT6 hasn't been weighed assembled yet, but guessing under 2,000 lbs with the full 192V/100AH CALB CA100FI pack installed. I'm intent on getting a Cd of 0.25 or less. Theoretically, 100 Wh/mi at 60 mph is possible if I go all out like that(full bellypan, LeMans front end, grille seal, rear diffuser, rear wheel skirts, side skirts, lowered ride height to 3" ground clearance, rear roofline extension with dorsal ridge), and 140 Wh/mi is possible if I don't concern myself with aero and keep it looking stock(just bellypan and grill block, estimating Cd at 0.3 for this case). My testing has been very limited, with little meaningful measurement; the car has not seen over 30 mph yet. Aeromods are not permanently installed on it.

Keeping my body stock, no bellypan, but only 1,900 lbs weight, no adjustment of brakes and alignment to reduce their drag, decent sport tires(Crr of 0.010), ~200 Wh/mi is still theoretically doable on the GT6.

Keep in mind, AC drives are even more efficient than DC. That can cut consumption by 5% or so if you go easy on the regen and decide to coast a lot.

Your Spitfire has greater potential for efficiency than you know, and unlike the Metro, yours is rear wheel drive, opening the doors to some very fast performance and good lateral grip for not a whole lot of money spent, ON TOP OF amazing efficiency. Consider the Geo Metro, a front wheel drive car with cheapy CV axles and a suspension far from ideal for cornering. Consider that the Metro has a significantly larger frontal area than your Spit(18 sq ft for the Metro, 15.2 sq ft for the Spit), but due to the Metro's existing streamlining being decent(Cd 0.31), consider that your Spitfire has far more opportunity for drag reduction because its Cd is a terrible 0.42.

Compare that to your Spitfire, built to obtain a 0.87 lateral G on antique non-radial tires. Consider that most NEW front drive cars with much more performance-oriented suspensions than that Metro has perform about the same lateral Gs on modern radial tires today as the Spitfire did on bias ply tires 40 years ago.

Right now, your Spitfire MkIV has a Cd of 0.42, frontal area of 15.2 sq ft. It's drag is greatly increased over a GT6. It is a convertible, which is the cause of that.

That being said, the drag coefficient has a lot of room for improvement on either a Spitfire or a GT6.

A GT6 body can fit on a Spitfire. Your own hard top can also be fabricated, potentially giving you a huge aerodynamic advantage over a GT6 body. The front of both the Spitfire and GT6 of all years is aerodynamically very "clean", other than the grille and exposed underbody. The rain gutters don't harm it much and flow seems to stay attached past the rear of the doors.

Designing and fabricating your own hard top, gives you a huge advantage over a GT6 body, due to being able to make the aerodynamics what YOU want. A GT6's rear roofline is too steep and wide towards the very end for optimization and provides half of the car's drag, but it is still a significant improvement over the open top Spitfire. Putting a streamlined hardtop on the Spit is simply a game-changer, if you do it right.

I am still trying to figure out how to permanently attach a rear roof extension for my GT6 without having to drill into the car or permanently alter it in a manner that would ruin its value if ever fully restored, but I really want to take advantage of low drag as much as I can, and that means I need to avoid flow separation at the roofline at the tallest point if the car. Due to the GT6's rear shape, aerodynamic optimization with an extension has limited potential shapes that prevent achieving an "ideal" teardrop in the rear on the top half of the car.

With a Spitfire, you wouldn't have that issue as you can make a removable hard top that meets the requirements for lowest possible drag with unaltered Spitfire body panels, that attaches where the stock "soft top" would fit, but gives an "ideal" streamlined rear profile(potential for 0.20 and below Cd may exist with a fully custom hard top stretching to the end of the car at the end of the trunk).

What happens when you cut aero drag by 1/3, lose 200 lbs, take 30% off your tires' rolling resistance coefficient by choosing more efficient tires, and eliminate through modification small but significant sources of stray drag coming from brakes, alignment, transmission fluid, and bearings?

Magic.

A Metro would have to be turned into something similar to Dave Cloud's "Dolphin" to compete with that hypothetical streamlined Spit on efficiency, and cornering performance would never be an apples to apples comparison between the two. The Spitfire would be comparable on the skidpad with modern $40,000+ sports cars, if you give it decent tires, and being rear wheel drive, it would be easy to get the tires to hook up no matter how fast you built it to go in the future.

The drivetrain components of a Spitfire are weak, mind you, but sturdy replacements do exist. The GT6's mechanicals are more stout than the Spitfire as a donor, the TR6 stouter still. My GT6 has a TR6 differential in it, which may be able to handle twin WarP 7s at 1000A without snapping given that the peak torque of the 2.5L 6 cyl ICE multiplied by 1st gear from a TR6 would give the similar torque to twin WarP 7s at 1000A in series. Anything larger, like twin WarP 8s or WarP 9s, and you're probably looking for a beefier differential.

With my Prestolite, I am keeping my transmission, limiting it to 680A to limit the motor to 119 lb-ft(stock GT6 level of torque). I will go dual motors at some point, which means I don't need the transmission when I do. The transmissions of the Spitfire, GT6, and TR6 alike couldn't confidently handle one motor at 1000A, let alone two motors at 1000A. The TR6 transmission and differential unit would be the best bet if you want to maintain a tranny using a single motor but also want good performance. The TR6 tranny may handle 200 lb-ft from the motor without snapping. The transmissions for the Spitfire and GT6 can barely handle their stock ICE engines, and break with abuse, with their stock ICEs making 69 lb-ft and 119 lb-ft, respectively.

In the Spitfire, designing for both cruising efficiency at legal speeds AND maximum straight-line speed can work hand in hand with each other...


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## Moltenmetal (Mar 20, 2014)

Still learning to drive my car- the instinct to go off pedal the instant I see brake lights ahead is still too strong. I haven't been driving for efficiency aside from avoiding high speeds, and since I designed for 300 Wh/mile, I have more range than I really need anyway- there is some room to have some fun with acceleration rather than constantly watching the ammeter. The whole reason for the car to me is the top down configuration, so there is no drag reducing hard top in my immediate future, though it clearly would reduce the drag. The car hasn't had an alignment yet and is definitely scrubbing the front tires- I need to get the front ride height right before spending money on an alignment. Looking into GT6 front springs as one option to fix the ride height. 

On the drivetrain side, I have the old Spitfire diff and half shafts but doubt they differ much between the Spit and GT6- correct me if I'm wrong! I have a W50 steel case transmission out of a 1980 RWD Celica which can take all the torque my AC50 can put out. I'm running 90 Wt oil in both- durability matters more to me than efficiency right now.


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## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

Moltenmetal said:


> even at near steady 60 mph. Still to scared to go faster than that!


If you are referring to being concerned about the motor and controller, I would personally not be afraid. My little ac35 spends a lot of time in the fast lane, and I often have it above 80 mph. It will do 100, but that is a little ways out of my torque band, so it will never get there in a headwind.


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## Moltenmetal (Mar 20, 2014)

No, the motor and controller are solid enough- it's the 40 yr old car they're in I'm concerned about! You feel so tiny and exposed in a Spitfire on a major highway- it's gradually going from terrifying to exhilarating, but until I have something proper for my front suspension ride height I'm keeping to the right lane and under 60. Pulling about 150-175A on the flat at 60 so the car would go far faster than my nerves could handle at 4-500A...!


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## BWA (Mar 14, 2015)

Get the 90w out of the gearbox, and, fill it with Dexron.

I also use Dexron in the diffs of my regular ICE cars, I have had no problems with this, but, would definitely say try this at your own risk (in the diff, not the gearbox), as, I have no real data on long lasting effects, but, no blown diffs in over 25 years of doing this.

Using Dexron in TR7 5 speed boxes was a factory special service bulletin. They were experiencing premature GBX failures using 90w in the 5 speeds, changing to Dexron pretty much cured this problem. It also makes the shifting much smoother and lighter, especially in cooler weather.

I also run Dexron in my front wheel bearings (none FWD cars) instead of grease. You can only do this in cars with very good rubber type oil seals, doesn't work with felt or cork seals, which, are, really just dust shields. I check them once a year, and, top up as necessary. Never had a bearing failure doing this.


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## Moltenmetal (Mar 20, 2014)

Both the Triumph diff and my Toyota W50 5spd recommend extreme pressure (EP) oils. I have 80W90 EP in both. The Triumph transmission has copper and brass parts in it so the EP sulphur additives aren't such a good idea because they apparently can lead to corrosion. A GL4 oil is what they recommend for the Triumph tranny, but people do get by with ATF like you do, and engine oils apparently too. Not much torque from the 1496 engine I guess, so not that fussy.

My wheel bearings would piss out anything but grease, and even my trunnions would rapidly leak out 90wt oil which is what they are recommended to use. So I'm sticking to the recommended lubricants with the exception of the lower trunnions, which are greased so they are at least somewhat lubricated...

All my u joints seem to be the permanently lubricated type and have no play I can detect. No rust rings are apparent on them either. The drivetrain sustained much less rust damage than the body, thankfully.


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## BWA (Mar 14, 2015)

They used a special type of grease for lower trunions that was basically a 50/50 mix of chassis grease and 90w. Can't for the life of me remember what it was called. I always mixed up my own.

Regular grease is too thick, and, wipes off the threads in the trunnion leading top premature wear. The 50% 90w helps the grease re-flow into the threads keeping them nice and wet.

Think I have a few NOS ones left if you ever need any...... 

Have a couple of spare trannies too.


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## Moltenmetal (Mar 20, 2014)

550 EV miles- face still sore from grinning! Car is behaving perfectly. Still stuff to do, but nothing urgent. Getting more and more comfortable on the highway- had it in fifth gear today- everything is holding together nicely.


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## jwiger (Oct 18, 2014)

Bravo! Glad the little car is doing well.


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## Moltenmetal (Mar 20, 2014)

Took the car downtown on the weekend- had to replace my Makita impact driver, which "walked" somewhere- not sure if I forgot it in the car or what happened to it, but it and its $90 Li-ion battery went bye-bye.

Lovely drive, there and most of the way back- cruising Yonge Street on the way there like a teenager... Driving back toward ominous-looking clouds- didn't really want to test the car's water resistance in a big rain, but there it was: a legendary Toronto "bomb" thunderstorm. Put up the soft top at a stoplight- no issues. Torrential rain, leaving standing water on the road- the car had to plow through it, there was no going around it. Aside from revealing that it's high time I took care of the remaining holes in the firewall and dealt with the drainage paths which were left by the removal of the heater core and fan assembly, the car came through it with flying colours. It also showed that my floorpans were 100% water tight- and revealed the locations where new drain holes would be most effective.

I opened the hood about 1/2 hour after the drive and found the entire control plate completely dry- still had dust on it, so it didn't get washed down and then dry off from the heat. Same with the DC/DC converter, which being mounted on the deck above the firewall , could easily get washed down. All my connections have shrink tubing on them, and as much as possible there are gaskets on the plugs etc., but it was very reassuring to know that the car met the water resistance challenge without doing any harm to me or to itself.


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## BWA (Mar 14, 2015)

Wouldn't worry too much about all that stuff, as, everybody knows, British cars leak more with the top up, than they do with it down.......


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## James harry (Jun 4, 2015)

oh, Its to much damage .


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## Moltenmetal (Mar 20, 2014)

I've got lots of charge history now- not hundreds of charges, but many. And every single charge, the Ah recorded to recharge the pack to my end state (which is always a BMS HVC trip on one cell), is lower than the Ah the EE Pro says I've consumed during driving, by at least 10-15%. And yes, I have checked the Peukert coefficient- it did mysteriously change itself back to the default at one point after I'd interrupted power to the gauge, but hasn't changed since. It's still set at 1.0. 

There's a "charge efficiency factor" (CEF, EE pro factor f5.6) which is set to the default of "auto". This is supposed to be the ratio of Ah in over Ah out and has a range of 50-100%. But it's not clear which figure it adjusts on the display. Figure I'll just set it to 100% and see what happens. 

I have a Kill-A-Watt meter which I use on the charger to monitor the kWh from the 120 V AC mains used to operate the charger. At the outset of charge, when the charger is drawing 1400 W or so, the charger efficiency in AC watts as measured by the KAW meter compared with DC watts going into the battery as measured by the EE Pro is almost exactly the 93% claimed by ElCon. This of course ignores any errors in RMS wattage measurement made by the KAW etc.. Using the KAW's kWh figure divided by 0.93, the expected Ah delivered to the batteries actually falls somewhere between the Ah recorded during charge and the Ah recorded during discharge. So, right now, I'm not at all sure which figure is accurate. Fortunately this is more a curiosity than a problem as I have way more pack than I need normally, and I never challenge the bottom- I don't want to ever go below 70% DOD.

An e-mail sent to TBS about this a couple weeks ago has received only crickets in response so far. I've just pinged them again so I hope they do reply. 

Randy at CanEV says that he just uses the auto-synch function on the EE Pro to reset the meter at the end of charge (I've been synching manually at the end of each charge). Because of this, he doesn't notice the discrepancy if there is one- if you allow the EE Pro to auto-synch, the display just goes to "FULL" when the charge voltage and current conditions are met. Unless you're sitting there the minute that happens, you wouldn't notice any mismatch if there was one.

It's disconcerting that this expensive gauge is giving me this level of uncertainty. Fortunately the error appears to be conservative, overestimating how much energy I'm drawing from the batteries.


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## Moltenmetal (Mar 20, 2014)

TBS replied, which is nice. Will try connecting the shield on my shunt sense cable to B-, and will set the f5.6 charge efficiency factor to 100% and see what happens.


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## Moltenmetal (Mar 20, 2014)

Changed f5.6, the "charge efficiency factor", from AUTO to 100%. Ah in now matches Ah out within about 1%. I didn't connect the sheath of my shunt sense cable to B- yet- will do that the next time I'm under the hood with a soldering iron handy.

Still a little puzzled how the EEPro managed to get the Ah in to be less than the Ah out. You'd think that the CEF could only be a value less than 1, so the thing would not be capable of making the Ah in lower than the Ah out...I've asked TBS the question and we'll see what they say. Maybe they believe in perpetual motion and don't limit the CEF in auto mode to values 1 or lower...


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## Moltenmetal (Mar 20, 2014)

Did a presentation about energy efficiency and the electric car to Jacob's gr 7 science class. Then I showed them the car- big kid show and tell! I've posted my slides from the talk in the chit chat forum.

Spent thus afternoon prepping and painting the inside if the hood and trunk lid as well as the little shelf above the firewall just below the windshield where the hood overlaps. Did some touch ups too- paint is already getting chipped in a few places. But I wanted it to look its best ahead of its first British car show next weekend! Excited to see the puzzled looks on the faces of the little Britsh car community- probably a few muttering "sacrilege" under their breath...oh well, I rescued this car from a certain trip to the junkyard through a lot of effort if not so much skill, so I figure I can hold my head high!


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## Baratong (Nov 29, 2012)

Your presentation looks great! Very nice how you explained energy production and usage.

Are you painting the inside the same color as the exterior? 

Rescuing a vintage car and giving it new life, even if it's not original, is certainly something to be proud of! Making it use renewable energy, without the mechanical problems the Spitfire was known for is even better!


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## Moltenmetal (Mar 20, 2014)

Will post some pics which I will take at the show this weekend. Inside of the hood is my light gray Macropoxy surface tolerant epoxy matching the frame, firewall and underside, because I still have a gallon or so left, and the price was right- and because it sticks like glue even to poor surface prep. Makes sense, because it's basically glue...but thinned with enough xylenes, it actually sprays really nicely, which I never managed with the urethane primer surfacer I was using, probably for lack of the right reducer.

Inside of the trunk lid and the lip just under the hood nearest the windshield were painted with leftover finish colour urethane, which is way less scary to spray now that it's summer...Still have to rip off the vinyl strips surrounding the windshield on the interior which are all torn, and paint that area. I bought a tiny HVLP detail/touch up gun and used it for the lip and trunk lid and it worked great.

I enjoyed giving the presentation- the teacher is a great guy and very enthusiastic. I will do more, including one a wee bit more technical for my coworkers, many of whom have been really supportive throughout.

Thanks for the compliments Baratong- they mean a lot coming from a guy who is literally inventing his own components for his build! I'm very excited to see what yours turns out like!


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## traveler501 (Aug 30, 2010)

I've just read through your whole thread, very interesting conversion and really a beautiful car. You should be very proud!

Meanwhile I noticed those comments earlier in the thread about TR6's being so poorly sprung and uncertain in turns. Let me just say that I came to this thread looking for a new project after just completing a TR6 restoration (my third). I have to tell you they drive great (more comfortable than my Miata). It's popular to do shock conversions on the TR6's (which I think is a mistake, and since they go stiffer typically, do mess up the ride comfort). Also, rear wheel geometry is critical and you will often find that either the swing arms are shimmed wrong or the springs may be sagging, either of which messes up the negative camber (worse, the rear swing arm mounts are a likely spot for severe rust!). A proper TR6 with stock equipment is actually a very nice ride!

That being said, I still think an EV Spitfire is a great idea, and still might be my next project. Thanks so much for sharing your build!!

John


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

_A proper TR6 with stock equipment is actually a very nice ride!_

Well I suppose some people might enjoy having their brains rattled around!
I found a TR6 to be the only car that made my mini feel softly sprung
OK on dead smooth tarmac 
No use at all on "normal" roads - not even on the track - the slightest ripples and the old MG midgets with 1/2 the engine would go powering past

TR6 - well known as the fastest tractor in the west!

I wonder whats wrong with your Miata? must be something pretty serious

Anyway 

Hi John - 
Welcome to the forum - you can even electrify a TR6! 
There are worse cars - 
Almost every Yank muscle car handles worse than a TR6 
(most don't rattle your brains as much)

If you fancy a Spitfire have you seen the "Hurricane" (Vincent Hurricane)
It's a body kit for the Spitfire


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## Moltenmetal (Mar 20, 2014)

Thanks and welcome- as I said, I've always admired TR6s but they were so far out of my price range that I've never had the chance to drive one. I saw a lovely topaz orange one parked in front of my local parts guy's shop. I've ordered some GT6 springs to try- hopefully that will get my ride height back where it is supposed to be.

The rear suspension is great after replacing the shocks- camber is right where it needs to be. But even with the front wheel camber negative when it should really be neutral, the car corners like a dream. And with the throttle pot input set properly and a tiny bit of adjustment of the default acceleration setting in the Curtis controller, the acceleration is jaw-dropping- for a Spitfire, that is! Braking is marvellous as well.


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## BWA (Mar 14, 2015)

Actually, that Tractor analogy is wrongly misused on the TR6s.

It was only the TR2s, 3s, and 4s, that had the Ferguson Tractor motors. The TR6 engine was always and only a proper car motor.

Looks like you are slowly getting that Spit sorted.


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## Baratong (Nov 29, 2012)

Moltenmetal said:


> ... Thanks for the compliments Baratong- they mean a lot coming from a guy who is literally inventing his own components for his build! I'm very excited to see what yours turns out like!


My project has predictably slowed down now with the summer in full swing. I was working on the car last week and the temp inside the garage was 116F. I can only really spend a few hours in the morning on it until the temps go down a bit.

So, I'm spending more time inside finishing off the custom electronics and control systems I've been developing..


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## Moltenmetal (Mar 20, 2014)

OK, the weather for Saturday and even my show day Sunday look like they're going to be craptastic, so I thought I'd post a few pics today:









Looking a lot nicer with the interior of the hood painted! A few splotches of overspray of the rubberized rocker guard I sprayed on the underside of the front fenders will need to be touched up the next time I have need to mix up some more epoxy. I also had to polish the polycarbonate guards over the tops of the cells, because I had to scrub them down with a ScotchBrite pad to get all the overspray off them and that left them translucent rather than transparent. 









My lovely wife has reneged on her agreement to re-cover the padding pieces that cover the driveshaft tunnel and mate up to the transmission cover, even for money. And still no headrest covers made by her for me either, hence the ugly and ill-fitting Canadian Tire seatcovers to hide the burned backs of the headrests. But the dash is looking pretty sharp- just labels for the switches left to design and order.


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## Moltenmetal (Mar 20, 2014)

First Britsh car show today- everybody was enthusiastic and supportive- no purist snobbery to be found! Dreadful weather, but that got everybody talking to one another- definitely doing this again!

Should have my GT6 springs Monday- should make for a big improvement!


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## Baratong (Nov 29, 2012)

Your car looks great amongst all the others!

Here it is with the EXIF rotation data modified...


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## Moltenmetal (Mar 20, 2014)

Thanks Baratong- must be getting old, as I figured out how to avoid this rotation problem and then promptly forgot it again!


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## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

I have found that if you are using an iPad or iPhone to take the pic, you have to keep the home button to the right when you take it, to ensure that the pics show up right side up.


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## jwiger (Oct 18, 2014)

Great that you got to bring your new ride to a social! I believe cars need play dates too, lol.

I completely missed that you are using Intellitronix gauges too, that's kinda neat. I'm using the dash mounted tach as a big ammeter for the traction pack(via an output from my BMS system). Since mine is a muscle car I plan on having a big monster tach on the dash, I have to bait the import tuners at the stop lights some how...

Looking at what you went through for your dash wiring makes me glad that my gauge panel is removable!

Car looks great!


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## Moltenmetal (Mar 20, 2014)

jwiger: thanks for the compliments! I like the Intellitronix gauges but didn't know that the tach digital display has only 100 rpm resolution- not all that great. 

I like having the tach, but the ammeter is by far the most useful gauge next to the speedo. The Intellitronix ones are the best of both worlds, having both a numeric and multisegment analog-like wrap-around display- but none of those gauges would give me a forward/backward current indication for regen. So my analog ammeter looks a little out of place on the dash, but works great. 

The only thing I'm missing from my display that I might want to add later is a pair of DC ammeters- one for the total current being used by my 12V system, and another for the current leaving my DC/DC converter or perhaps the current going to/from my 12V auxilliary battery. I have a voltmeter on the 12V system, and it's handy because I can see a small voltage drop when I apply the brakes- lets me know my brakelight bulbs are drawing, which is important in a car which still contains a few Lucas Electric demons!

I did everything outside the car that I could, mounting and wiring wise. But there's a steel back-plate behind the dash, with holes in it that the tach and speedo etc. have to pass through, so everything had to be done with spade or bullet lugs and then connected back together again once the wires had passed through those holes. All that work, and the connections between the sensors and the back of the panel, had to be done lying on my back, with the standing seam of the door sill digging into my back...not my most pleasant memories of the build, for sure. Fortunately the middle gauge plate comes out with four screws and there's no steel behind it to get in the way.

It wasn't until quite late in the project that I got myself a proper lug crimper for the small auto-type spade lugs- and that wasn't for lack of trying. The hardware store ones just are not up to the job...I found one at a Harbour Freight I visited on a business trip, and checked a bag just to get it home- only $7 but worth its weight in gold, as all crimps are now 100% first time. 

http://www.harborfreight.com/9-1-2-half-inch-wire-crimping-tool-36411.html


So there are still a few flaky crimps in my dash work, waiting to get me at some point! Fortunately any crimp with two wires in a single lug that I did, I soldered right to the lug- so they're solid. The big lugs on my main pack and motor connections, were made with a proper crimper I borrowed from work so they're all solid- though not up to EVMetro's standards for sure!

Had to drive the car through pretty significant water, both getting to the show and getting back home again, but it was worth it- and aside from my speedo sender going to 80 mph for about 2 seconds as I went through a particularly deep puddle at the park gate, everything seems to be holding up to water and abuse. So far...


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## jwiger (Oct 18, 2014)

Yeah that position is not fun at all. I did some work on a '67 Camaro dash that was similar. I wised up and used various sizes of Molex connectors on the backs of the gauges, and did two large ones (one for power and lights, one for gauge signals. There was a pigtail that connected the dash connectors to the gauge connectors. It took a bit of planning, but that was done from the comfort of the dining room table. Sorry I couldn't share that before you sweated it out.


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## BWA (Mar 14, 2015)

During many years of servicing, repairing and restoring British cars, I soon developed a fix for the sill flange in the back syndrome.

I cut a 3 foot by 18 inch piece of 3/4 ply wood, covered it with half inch foam, and, some indoor out door carpet. You lay the board on the door seam, prop the outer end with a concrete block, and, you're good to go.

Quite comfy, even for hours under the dash.

And, no, I have never fallen asleep at (under) the wheel doing this. Honest. No really, never.......


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## Moltenmetal (Mar 20, 2014)

I made do with a towel over the sill seam, as my garage is too narrow for your solution...glad it's behind me!


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## Moltenmetal (Mar 20, 2014)

Local parts guy gave me the same springs again...GT6 springs are back ordered...

Springs in the car are 12 5/8" uncompressed length, 0.44" wire dia, 13 full coils

I have some old springs as spares- 11 coils, 13 1/4" uncompressed length, 0.43" dia wire

PM'ed Duncan for a physics lesson! Don't want to do this by trial and error...!

...and I figured I had the weight on the front nearly the same as the car was originally...I can't be more than 100 lbs heavy on the front!

Damn, this is frustrating!


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## Moltenmetal (Mar 20, 2014)

Got out my 73 lb lead weight and measured the spring rates of the springs- as close as I could with a tape measure at least, with a heavy weight balanced on top of a wobbly spring- and they come out to be roughly the same, and close enough to the 180 lbs/in that is apparently right for the stock springs.

So- assuming they're both about the same, the old spring with its longer uncompressed length, will raise me up by the difference in the uncompressed lengths, which is 3/4" along the line of the shock, which might amount to 3/8-1/2" rise in the frame. That, plus my 1/2" spacers on top of the springs, should probably get me back where I need to be. 

Going to clean and paint the old springs- considering that an act of hope toward the problem being solved and the old springs staying in!


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## Moltenmetal (Mar 20, 2014)

Weeeeeeel...

The spring on the left is the new one I had in the car. The spring in the middle is the new one I got yesterday from the same guy- a bit longer. The one on the right is my old swap meet spring, which as it turns out was just filthy from 25 yrs of storage but otherwise showed no evidence of ever having been used- and it too bears the white and purple marking that the other two do. So there I go- all I needed was shocks- I HAD the damned right springs in my own stock, but didn't trust them because they were dirty, and "new is better"...dumbass!

The spring rates measure nearly the same, as best I could determine with a weight and a tape measure, so the uncompressed length is what matters most. Bet I'm back to a much more pleasant road height by the time I put these in!

First one is in already- my homemade spring compressor works well enough.


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## BWA (Mar 14, 2015)

Every thing else being equal, the fewer coils, the stiffer the spring.


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## Moltenmetal (Mar 20, 2014)

BWA, you'd have this car sussed in no time. It's amateur hour around here- suspension isn't something I'd bothered to learn much about until now!


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## BWA (Mar 14, 2015)

You seem to be doing alright.

If the spring rate is ok, my gut instinct, would be to use thicker spacers.

Although, I have rebuilt many Spitfire front ends over the years, I never replaced any front springs. Front end sag was not a common problem on them. Trunions, bushings etc were another matter though.

Now, the backend was another thing altogether, that transverse leaf spring was never up to the job.

I did find my NOS trunions if you need any.....


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## Moltenmetal (Mar 20, 2014)

Thanks for the offer of the trunnions- I'll need to rebuild the driver's side eventually but right now it's pretty good. The box of goodies I got from Mr. Szott contained a complete suspension set- trunnions, bushings, even a vertical link, all new in the bags from Spitbits- puzzled a bit how it all goes together! 

The only significant play I detect is in the driver's side wheel bearing, and that's because the manual says tighten the nut until you encounter resistance and then back it off one hole, and resistance happens to be encountered exactly when the hole is lined up. They warn the bearing needs at least a little play- too tight and it will generate its own play by wearing!

I put the long springs in and kept my 1/2" thick spacers on top of the spring caps- any more and I'd have to lengthen the 1/4-28 bolts that hold the spring caps in place. Ride height is great right now, but it needs to bounce around a bit before I'll know for sure. Parked in right now and I'm worn out- will drive it tomorrow, which reminds me that I need to put it on charge tonight! Last time it was decent right off the jack as well, but started to rub after a bit of driving which is why I added the spacers and rolled the fender lips.


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## Moltenmetal (Mar 20, 2014)

Btw, what does NOS stand for?


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## Moltenmetal (Mar 20, 2014)

My spring compressor- pretty effortless. I bolted the shock lower right through my workbench table top so there was no way it was slipping out of place, and the top end is held firmly in place by the bolts on the spring cap. Springs are hazardous so you need to be careful.

That's my trolley jack in pieces on the bench. They prevent overextension if the cylinder by milling two grooves in the bore at the top of travel, but of course these just allowed the oil to slice two nice grooves in the u cup piston seal. And that seal is neither metric nor imperial- nobody has one that I can find. So the jack cylinder goes in the garbage, to be replaced with a portapower cylinder so I can use my portapower pump on a hose. That'll be handy for jacking up the front of my very low car- the old jack left very little room to operate the pump handle.


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## Moltenmetal (Mar 20, 2014)

Tire rubbing is completely gone- spring swap did exactly what I wanted it to. Mind you, the car is a little less certain in turns on the front end than it was with 3 degrees negative camber, but now the ride is much better and you can actually turn it to park it without worry. Hurray!


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## BWA (Mar 14, 2015)

Great, it's nice when a plan comes together.

Now you have the ride height where you want it, it's easy to shim out the lower control arm brackets to bring a bit of the negative camber back. 1.5deg negative is ideal for a street driver, should completely eliminate that uncertainty.

Radical changes in ride height and camber may necessitate adjusting the toe in, which, may be the real cause of the vagueness, rather than the ride height/camber change itself.


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## Moltenmetal (Mar 20, 2014)

Now that the obvious front end issue is behind me, it's time for an alignment. Not planning to do the string thing- will get it done by somebody. Front and rear both need adjustment.

The hesitance was primarily a result of a low tire pressure- I have two rims that leak, regrettably. Keeps me on my toes, remembering to refill those two tires.


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## Moltenmetal (Mar 20, 2014)

So many little annoying things with the car got fixed this past few days. The worst one was a nasty rattle and squeak which sounded like death, but turned out to be a single screw in the cover over my front driveshaft u-joint, the top of which was chafing the top of the frame.


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## jwiger (Oct 18, 2014)

I don't like those 20% of things that take up 80% of the project time. But it is much nicer to take people for rides when you don't have squeaks and rattles to explain.


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## Moltenmetal (Mar 20, 2014)

I just lied and said that the car always had those rattles and squeaks- you just couldn't hear them over the roar of the engine and exhaust!


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## samwichse (Jan 28, 2012)

Moltenmetal said:


> I just lied and said that the car always had those rattles and squeaks- you just couldn't hear them over the roar of the engine and exhaust!


How is this a lie? It's an old Triumph, is probably true!


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## Moltenmetal (Mar 20, 2014)

Still plenty of rattles, thumps and squeaks, but the worst one by far was the racket that one misplaced screw made- it could have been a musical instrument for Pete's sake!


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## Moltenmetal (Mar 20, 2014)

Since I've been the continuous owner of the Spitfire and no ownership had to change hands, there was nothing to trigger the MOT office to ask for a safety inspection certificate when I went in to plate the vehicle. But I had the car safety inspected by a local mechanic just for my own peace of mind. It took a few calls, but I was able to find someone who wasn't scared of the electrical part of it. But I always have trepidation about this sort of discretionary inspection- it can be very arbitrary and opinion-related, even though there's a checklist to follow.

I think the owner rues the decision to accept the work, because all the techs in the place were all over my car instead of the ones they should have been working on, with intense curiosity and fascination- these guys love cars, as you can imagine, but it's easy to forget that when you're sticking back together unloved, neglected and misunderstood cars for a living. When something new and interesting comes in, it brings back that fascination that got people into the business in the first place, which is very cool to be a part of. I left with no real safety issues to fix, but a list of stuff that needed attention to make them happy it would survive long term- very helpful suggestions for the most part, that made the car better than it was. I had the list taken care of by the end of my day off. Took it back in for final inspection, got two slow leaking tire valves and beads taken care of, and walked out with a shiny new Ontario safety certificate. Very proud moment on my part!


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## Moltenmetal (Mar 20, 2014)

As of midnight tonight, I will have real car insurance for the E-Fire rather than the limited use toy car insurance I have on it presently. This took from April until now, fighting with a big company all the way up to their ombudsman. They quoted me on a full disclosure basis, re quoted me again this spring, and then declined to write me a policy. Regrettably, they will deny to insure any other electric conversion, and in fact told me they will decline to insure any future electric conversions I may choose to do. Insurance here in Ontario is provincially mandated extortion. Finding insurance for conversions here is next to impossible- as it is for kit cars, road legal dune buggies, or pretty much anything other than stock commercially produced IC engine cars. Get your firm quote in hand before you begin, folks - I did, and that's the ONLY reason my car is insured as a real daily driver right now.

In BC it's dead easy. Not so here.

Similarly, I should really transfer the ownership to say that the car is electric rather than gasoline powered- and I probably would do it if the Ministry of Transport hadn't taken down their car conversion FAQ between last year when I started the conversion, and now. An inquiry made to them about the fact that this FAQ comes up in a search of their site, but then shows up as a dead link, brought zero response- and it's been at least two months. So no pretty emergency response stickers for me, but also no other consequences because the car being a classic is exempt from the emissions testing regs anyway. I think the MOT hopes all the conversions will just stop, now that you can buy a Leaf or a Volt here (still no Spark EV yet...).


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## Moltenmetal (Mar 20, 2014)

BTW, 220 Wh/mile both to work and back today- suspension improvements may have helped a bit, but the HOV lanes for the Pan Am games that I cannot drive in- no green license plates for conversions- have slowed traffic and that too makes for better electric economy..l


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## Moltenmetal (Mar 20, 2014)

Well, it wasn't just the traffic- this morning's cruise in was 230 Wh/mile, and I was going 60 mi/hr pretty much the whole way.

The E-Fire is now my principal driver. I will probably park it on those sweltering days where A/C is a must, and of course if it's raining in the morning.

I was interviewed on the local radio station a few days ago. Our provincial Environmental Commissioner pointed out that the province has zero hope of meeting its greenhouse gas targets unless we do something significant about the transportation sector, and that promoting EVs was clearly part of that- though the track record on that so far is abysmal. The CBC was trying to make the rather dry story more interesting, and there I was to talk about my conversion- hope it helped! Sadly the 2014 stats were that only 1 car in 1900 in Ontario was electric- I'm sure that's 1/1000 by now, but it's still sad. More conversions would of course be part of the solution, but of course the Ontario Ministry of Transportation wants nothing to do with that- they think the days of conversions are over with now that you can buy a commercial electric car- if you've got the money to spend on one that is. Prices of EVs here run a very significant premium of what they do in the US, and did so even when the $CDN was at parity with the $US.


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## itchyback (May 28, 2014)

just read this story start to finish.
Very inspiring, i hope to do the same thing when i get started on my project (shortly). I imagine i will have to do some body repairs and get used to rattles and squeaks (hoping to convert a 70's Jag). I too have zero experience but yourhave a go attitude has built my confidence. great build thread and great detail, thank you for taking the effort to write it. 
Happy EV motoring.
Glenn


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## Moltenmetal (Mar 20, 2014)

Thanks- it was written to be read, so it's great when someone gets value from it. It's half sharing and half learning, and both are valuable, so if you start a project, please make sure you share- and if you have questions, there are great people willing to help!

Everybody has to start somewhere. Sure, I'd done some fabricating and electrical/electronics, but had never welded in a body patch or dealt with suspension and although I'd patched many a hole in a rusty old winter car, I'd never painted one before! The orange peel all over my car tells the story, but I think it looks amazing and am very proud of my result- knowing I did it!

A '70s Jag is a lot more valuable than my Spitfire, even if it's in poor shape. You will need to really jump up the learning curve quickly to make the result respectful of the starting material! But above all, have fun- don't concern yourself about what the purists will think when you're done. I've had nothing but support from the Triumph community for my project, even though my workmanship isn't up to the standards of these retired guys who have patience and skill and take restoration to a high art.


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## Moltenmetal (Mar 20, 2014)

Hot day today- 33C and high humidity and UV. Motor temp reached 70 C and controller reached 53C...wouldn't have driven it, but my wife needed my other car and I loaned the family car to my brother and his family who are visiting. Everything went smoothly but I can't imagine the heat is good for the cells, especially while recharging. Waited until after sundown to recharge from the drive home, but there isn't even shade for the car at work.


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## Baratong (Nov 29, 2012)

It wasn't a terribly hot day here.. only 41c today... 

Kidding aside, my plan has been to charge at night. In the summer, the temp would often be too high during the day, and electricity is a lot cheaper at night. 

Great to see your car performing so well! Probably much more reliable now than when it was an ICE.


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## Moltenmetal (Mar 20, 2014)

Not enough range to avoid a daytime charge at work...but that was never the plan. 

There's one parking spot within range of a 120 V convenience landscaping outlet. Regrettably, no shade there.

Baratong- I just learned that the active thermal management on the Chevy Volt includes a dedicated air conditioning evaporator and TXV for the pack...wow, that car is FULL of complexity and cost! I think you'd be better served with A/C in the passenger compartment, unless your plan is to only drive in winter or at night! 

Controller temp was 37 C on the trip in this morning too- need to check that the muffin fan under my controller's heatsink is still working! Yesterday's hot drive home might have cooked it...

Planning some fans to just keep the heat from accumulating below the hood during charging. Might put a layer of that aluminized bubble wrap under the hood too as a radiant barrier. Want to slip a few thermocouples between cells to record the front pack temperature, but have no datalogger to record the temperatures- might have to drive with a multimeter on the passenger seat for a while...


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## Moltenmetal (Mar 20, 2014)

After 1600 miles of pure EV driving, the overall average is 236 Wh/mile on a mixture of perhaps 80% highway/20% city driving. Highway trips in the morning are almost straight 60 mph the whole way, with the usual interruptions which can be handled mostly by regen. Evening trips include a lot of stop and go. Note that this also includes quite a number of short 400+ Wh/mile "show off" trips to demonstrate the car's very enjoyable torque!

The average of numerous observations of Wh out of battery measured by my EE Pro (using average pack voltage of 105 V), per Wh in to charger measured by my Kill-A-Watt meter, is 91%. The power factor of these ElCon chargers is apparently quite good, and should be especially good at 120V AC input (where I always charge), so the KAW should be reading reasonably accurately. The charger itself is about 93% efficient, measured instantaneously by comparing the KAW's reading to the EEPro's current and voltage measurements. That matches the ElCon datasheet, so that indicates to me that the Wh out of the battery estimated by the EEPro is a bit conservative. The cells are not 97% efficient, based on my understanding of the electrochemistry and based on AZDeltaWye's numerous and I suspect, more accurate measurements.


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## Moltenmetal (Mar 20, 2014)

Just passing 2000 EV miles driven at about 235 Wh/mile out of the batteries and about 260 Wh/mile out of the wall. That's roughly 0.75 tonnes of CO2 saved relative to driving the original Spitfire the same distance. That would be enough CO2 to double the CO2 concentration in about 1 million cubic metres of the atmosphere.


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## Moltenmetal (Mar 20, 2014)

Well, it had to happen sooner or later- the last major piece of Leyland drivetrain, the differential, failed in a bizarre way. A nice round hole about the size of a nickel popped out of the diff casing at the rear, it seems immediately behind the crown gear, which of course pumped out the entire oil contents of its sump in seconds.

Fortunately I have a spare, and it didn't strand me- must have happened right at the end of my drive home. Unfortunately I have to pop in the spare tomorrow as Saturday my buddy is making a video about me and my conversion- and it would be embarrassing to have to postpone even though it's the Leyland evil spirits rather than the EV stuff to blame!


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## Baratong (Nov 29, 2012)

Hey, sorry to hear your diff failed! You replaced nearly all the drive components and the only one left fails on you... from everything I've heard and read, this sounds about right for Leyland.

I should probably start thinking about my diff too as it'll probably let loose. With the electric motor having lots more torque than the original ICE, it's bound to happen.


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

Hi Molten, Baratong
Are you guys using the gearbox or are you direct drive to the diff?

If you are direct drive then you don't have the torque multiplication and even if you are using the gearbox I assume you are not doing the rev up and drop the clutch

I'm not surprised that your diff died - but I'm not sure that the motor torque is to blame

From the description of the failure sounds like a bit of metal got caught in the gears, maybe a gear tooth that fatigued off after decades of use


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## Baratong (Nov 29, 2012)

Duncan said:


> Hi Molten, Baratong
> Are you guys using the gearbox or are you direct drive to the diff?


Hey Duncan, we are both using transmissions. Molten's using a Toyota, and I'm using a T5. I was originally planning on going direct drive but changed directions a few months ago and put in the T5.

Since the Spitfire only had about 80 ft-lbs at most, and the USA spec 1500 had 53hp on its best day, the electric drivetrain may be pushing the limits of the differential. 
It could easily be metal fatigue, these are old cars for sure, but I'd bet it's exacerbated by the added torque.


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## Moltenmetal (Mar 20, 2014)

Here's the carnage. I suspect that because the oil seals had been leaking for a long time, the thing ran low of oil at some point- probably for longer than I care to admit. A gear tooth or bolt internal to the thing must have fractured off a big enough piece to get trapped between the crown and the back of the housing and BAM, there's a lovely hole punched in the back. It was noisy before, but it got decidedly noisier all of a sudden on my drive home the other day, and a trip around the block Thursday morning was enough to have me drop the car off and take the Prius C. 

BTW we're down to two cars again, after being short one a month while my brother visited- on our trip out east the basemodel Prius we bought to replace the one I crashed, was rear ended by a little old lady on the bridge between New Brunswick and Maine- nobody hurt, but there was more than cosmetic damage to the rear end of the car including a hatch that wouldn't close- imagine listening to beep, beep...for six hours until I got somewhere with WiFi to figure out how to defeat the "hatch ajar" buzzer!









The kid was indispensable today: the old diff fought us the whole way, taking a hammer and chisel to split the rust bond between the top of the old diff and the bottom leaf of the leaf spring. If I'd broken down and removed my rear pack right away, I would have saved a few hours and a ton of frustration. The kid was right there with me the whole time- taking things apart, manning the jack as I tried to pry out the old unit and while we installed the new one, fetching tools...his skills are building daily as is his confidence and attention span. To see what this project has done for him was worth the conversion parts, period. Getting an awesome car to drive myself was just a bonus! Mind you, Vanquisor's son is welding ON his El Camino project, and is younger than my son...a wee bit jealous there!









Here's my shiny spare, just prior to replacement. Removing the diff gave me access to the last area of the underside that hadn't been stripped and repainted, though there wasn't much corrosion being much of it was covered with 80W90...but it's cleaned up and painted with rust converter now at least.

The car is quieter now...runs just as nice as before otherwise. 

Baratong, I wouldn't panic- the diff is used with some big engines in engine swapped Spits, and I am told that the GT6 used the same rear end as the Mk 3 did- doubt they dumbed it down for the 1500. The British high compression GT6s put out 120 ft-lbs of torque which is all my AC50 will do on a good day. Your DC motor on the other hand may be able to do some damage- but as long as you set your acceleration parameters in your controller reasonably, you won't be tearing teeth out of it if it's in good shape. This one was part of a car built on one of those Leyland days where the line was shut down seven times due to labour unrest...the whole drivetrain was possessed. My tranny was missing half a tooth out of 1st gear, the engine dropped thrust washers into the oil pan more than once...it was a trainwreck. I'm happy to have the last major piece of the original drivetrain back out of the car. If this one goes, I may be considering extra measures- but I think I'll get a long life out of it. We'll keep you posted!


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

_Leyland days where the line was shut down seven times due to labour unrest.
_
You do know what that means?
Labour unrest means that management was that piss poor awful that it totally pissed off the workers 
Behind (almost) every strike you will find appalling management

I was working in the Automotive industry about that time (70's) and for every hour we lost due to union action we lost 100 hours due to management incompetence

I remember our factory manager berating the assembly staff about not meeting targets - we had no driveshafts!
You can't build a fuel pump without a driveshaft and it was NOT my assembly workers fault that some arsehole hadn't ordered the parts in time

The media would report a strike saying it was down to something like a tea break 
But if you knew what was happening you would find the "Tea Break" was just the final straw

Leyland had it's problems (in spades!) but they were almost 100% caused by the management
(This is speaking as a manager/engineer)


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## Moltenmetal (Mar 20, 2014)

Take your word for it Duncan- I wasn't there. Just had nothing but bad experiences with unions personally- the work differentiation games and closed shop relatives only nature of many unions around here give organized labour a very bad name.

As to Leyland- Whoever screwed it up, it was a pretty craptastic product. Then again, who was making good cars in those days? The mid 70s were a low ebb for many things. But like all things, the Spit has its charms- decent suspension, low c of g, and I personally love the look, though some don't. And the hood taking the fenders with it like the E type Jags, and a frame so you can do what you want with the body and drivetrain- it's a modder's delight, EV or not. The wood dash beats the plastic I saw on many finer and much more expensive cars from around the same decade. If I didn't love the wee beastie I would have been mad to undertake this project- but that drivetrain was grade A crap.


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

Hi Molten
I like British cars - for years I was a mini guy,

But by the 70's they were miles behind the times, 
I had a Lancia from that period a Lancia Beta Spyder - poor electrics, average rust proofing but decades in advance of the Brits on engine, drivetrain and suspension

The classic example was my friends bike
He had a Panther 650 Sloper
In 1935 when it was designed a great bike, by 1965 when they stopped making it
Just a tadge out of date

In the UK we had excellent designs BUT they were simply not improved and developed.

It was almost impossible to interest management in doing any improvement or development
Senior management were all public school boys who had studied the classics - all they could do was blame the workers

The Japs, Germans and even the Italians worked on improving their designs,

The French..... not sure what they were working on but it had to be different

The Yanks
They had come up with a winning formula fit a huge low stressed engine in an old truck and call it a car
Worked really well in the USA where petrol was cheaper than water and corners were rare


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## Studebaker (Jan 22, 2012)

Duncan said:


> In the UK we had excellent designs BUT they were simply not improved and developed.
> 
> 
> The Japs, Germans and even the Italians worked on improving their designs,
> ...


Really well put, Ducan. I’m not entirely sure about this UK excellent design thing, thou. I didn’t have much to do with British cars from 70’s,. Back then we tended to keep clear from stuff made in imperial system, but based on my current adventure with mini, I don’t think such claim can be justified. Who the hell thought, a gearbox in engine sump would be a good idea?


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

_Who the hell thought, a gearbox in engine sump would be a good idea?_

It does sound awful but it actually worked quite well
I did a lot of gearbox rebuilds but I had 1430cc and about 110Hp - over three times what the gearbox was designed for
With just 35Hp it was a good long lasting gearbox

And that inside out clutch and flywheel - totally radical design but it did work well

The mini was a 1950's car - and it kept all of its most horrible features right until the 90's when they stopped building them

Great initial design 
Amazing packaging, good handling, great economy,

A car from 1959 was still better than almost anything else you could get until the mid 70's
And better than any other small British car until the 80's
Unfortunately with minimal improvements over three decades
You would have thought they would have fixed the front ball joints and rear trailing arm bearings at least

I love the look of your car 
But I still think you have thrown the baby out with your coils springs and rear disc brakes
With small wheels and limited wheel travel you need rising rate springing and the rear brakes don't do much - there is so little weight on the rear wheels under braking that you don't want them to do much
Watch a mini going around the track (do they still have mini races?) - the inside rear wheel comes off the ground on some corners


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## Studebaker (Jan 22, 2012)

Well, I meant the concept, not gearbox itself. 

Mini the best car till mid 70’s? Not by any stretch of imagination. Any fiat from that period was way better. 


I know you big fan of rubber doughnuts. Rubber is OK for serviceable parts, but if you have to take half of a car apart to change it, it can hardly be called servicing. Besides rubber is a perishable material. It changes its properties overnight. Apart from minis, and trailer axles, it was never used as suspending agent in cars. 

Rear brakes don’t do much in minis. Agreed. But they do need much in terms of maintenance. And in case you didn’t notice, this box in the trunk of my mini is intended for battery pack, so I’m gonna need some brakes there. 

Moltenmetal’s build thread is probably not the best place for us to argue, but since you started I tell you what I think. In my opinion apart for how mini looks there is nothing in it worth mentioning. Literally nothing. Yet, you who appear to be great mini admirer managed to ef up that one good thing. Its looks 












I honestly think you should be tried before Hague Tribunal for this. It’s a bloody crime against humanity man.


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

Hi Studebaker

The front mounted radiator didn't look that good but the rest of it was lovely!
In my defense have you tried cooling a 1430cc 112Hp A series with that sidemount radiator
It's nearly impossible to get enough air flow

As far as aesthetics are concerned I'm guilty - that is probably the best looking car I have built
In that photo it had done about 20,000 everyday miles and was starting to get a bit scruffy

Can you shrink that photo down a bit - it's too big to see the whole thing


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## Moltenmetal (Mar 20, 2014)

...OK, back to the E-Fire!

Shot the video with my buddy- lots of fun, though I doubt I'll be the scintillating entertainment that I could have been- I was pretty knackered from swapping the differential, and bothered by a rattle/grind that I heard every time the thing went into regen.

...well, I think I found the source of that noise, or at least I hope so!
On this car and the '74, they used an axial flex joint element in the rear prop shaft U joint, consisting of eight strips of presumably spring steel. Each flange of the U joint has a 2 bolt flange which bolts to four of these strips- two facing each way, such that the eight strips (two layers of four) form a box. This box of flat strip springs serves to provide some axial flex in the prop shaft to diff end of the drive train. Not even sure I need this flex, as my own transmission has a sliding splined joint at the transmission end which can move axially- but of course never needs to, as the differential is mounted firmly to the frame with some rubber doughnuts and can't move axially more than maybe 1/8" anyway. But regardless, forty years of fatigue (and likely the sudden reversals in torque which happen when you go from hard acceleration to foot off the pedal (triggering 100 A of regen) have cracked at least one of those eight straps through. So I'm replacing all eight just in case.









Baratong: apparently they switched for some reason to a CV joint at the front of the driveshaft in later model years. Dunno what you ended up with. 

Local parts guy is, of course, totally useless (again!). So it's another order to Spitbits, and wait for it to come in the mail, and no doubt cringe at what fees I'm assessed at the border... I've only driven the car on one trip to work and back since hearing the noise, and I nursed the car along, using the noise as a guide as to when I'm doing something wrong (ie. completely avoiding regen). Driving the car without regen is a totally different experience- I'm VERY glad I have regen! But the car will be parked now until I fix this- I have no desire to have this thing come apart on the road!

So Duncan, and all ye others who are so knowledgeable in the ways of cars- is there a reason I need this flex feature in my drivetrain, given that I have a sliding splined joint at my transmission to 1st propshaft U joint connection? What purpose would a 2nd axial slop point serve in this arrangement? It looks to me to be a weak point from the point of view of handling torque. Who knows- when I replace those straps, it might outlast the rest of the car, but I'm definitely curious.

I think, or rather hope, that the differential should be up to the job, given that aside from a minor change in gear ratio (3.63 for the GT6 vs 3.89 for the Spitfire 1500) it's the same diff as was used in the GT6. Same with the half shafts- they're apparently the same between the two cars also). My transmission, though it has over 200,000 km on it and is pretty noisy from wear, should also be up to the job as it was from a 2.2 L Toyota Celica AND was apparently also used in their small trucks. So hopefully this should be the last weak point in the drivetrain. Damn, I hope so- I HATE driving the car when there's something about it that makes me at all unsure- I get jumpy at every little noise now!


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## Baratong (Nov 29, 2012)

Hey Molten,

My '79 does have a CV joint in the drive shaft. I'm not sure I'll be able to re-use the shaft though. I've looked into it some but haven't taken the steps yet of having the shaft reworked to fit my new rig.


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## Moltenmetal (Mar 20, 2014)

Well, according to the guys at the Triumph Experience, I do not need axial slop at both ends of my driveshaft- the Triumph end on this model year is fixed rather than sliding. Though the new straps are on order, I will pull the old ones tomorrow and get the dimensions so I can have some thicker ones laser cut from mild steel- can get that done cheap. Should take away most of the flex at this end, forcing any axial movement to occur at the tranny end, as well as giving me a more torque-resistant assembly. But I will try the new straps first- if they last, no need to swap in the thicker ones.


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## BWA (Mar 14, 2015)

Absolutely don't need them with your setup.

Best fix would be to find an older conventional style Spit Drive shaft......


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## Moltenmetal (Mar 20, 2014)

Confident I can make the existing arrangement stiff enough axially, and torque resistant enough too, without going through the bother of shortening another driveshaft and splicing on the front portion required to mate with my Toyota tranny.


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## Moltenmetal (Mar 20, 2014)

Well...one of the eight straps was completely missing, and its partner was cracked through, so yes that was the source of the noise... Glad I stopped driving it when I did!

Replaced the 0.030" thick Spring steel straps with 1/8" thick mild steel straps. The spring steel has a higher strength and yield strength, but my straps are greatly thicker and about 33% wider too, so that should be ok. 

Took it out for some hard accelerations followed by some hard regenerative braking. Aside from a minor rattle from contact between the peak corners of the straps with an ill-placed bracket (for the parking brake cable ) during the hardest accelerations, all is solid and smooth. No vibration from the driveshaft at speed, so I must have made the straps close enough to identical to keep things balanced. So- I think I can drive this car again! The downtime has been no huge loss, as the past week has been unbearably hot and the car was subjected to a steady stream of black walnut debris rained down on it whenever it sat on the on the driveway rather than in the shop- the squirrels are feasting on our tree right now.


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## Moltenmetal (Mar 20, 2014)

A pic of the repair...









Running nice and solid now. Checked everything after another 100 km of driving and all seems tight and happy. We'll see how it is on the highway shortly.


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## BWA (Mar 14, 2015)

Nice job.

If those two yokes had the same hole spacing, I think I would have just bolted them together. Can't really envision any problems doing that.

Another option, would have been a round plate, 1/4" thick, with 4 holes in it.


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## Moltenmetal (Mar 20, 2014)

I like the round plate BWA, and may do that sometime.

Here's where the plot thickens: on one of the other forums I participate in (an engineering forum), I posted questions about my drive assembly. I learned some things about U joints and driveshafts that I don't think are common knowledge. 

What I've heard is from a particularly smart mechanical engineer, and it seems to match my commonsense- but the geometry involved is complex so it's not intuitively obvious. There is also apparently a lot of incorrect information out there on the subject.

1st, a driveshaft should have equal angles on each u joint about the centreline axis of the driveshaft. Commonsense that this would be the case, though the reason is apparently partially to do with keeping the u joint needle bearings properly lubricated. OK, check, my car is close enough on that score, with the differential input shaft being close enough to parallel to the frame and the transmission output shaft also being nearly parallel to the frame, and the transmission is higher in elevation than the differential's input shaft, so the angles between the two are near enough to equal.

Apparently, if the angles about the central axis of the driveshaft have the same sign, i.e. in an arrangement where the diff shaft runs parallel to the frame, the driveshaft points upward 3 degrees and the transmission (and engine crankshaft) are angled six degrees upward such that the angle about the driveshaft axis is +3 degrees on both ends, the correct orientation is to have the yokes of the u joints aligned with one another. That is apparently approximately what was in the Spitfire originally- little did I know! We certainly did not have that geometry when I put that big Toyota motor in there- it was much closer to what I have now, as we had to put the engine as low as possible and it was STILL too tall to fit under the hood properly.

If, however, you have an arrangement like mine, where the signs of the angles are equal but opposite, forming a stretched Z shape rather than a squashed U shape, you need the u joints arranged with the yokes at 90 degrees to one another.

One U joint does not give a constant velocity output to a constant rotational velocity input, which is why you need two. Properly arranged, they form what is called a double Cardan joint. Two u joints rotated properly relative to one another do cancel each other's rotational variations out, but the cancellation apparently depends on the angles of the joints about the shaft as noted above- that's the part that people usually screw up. Apparently this doesn't matter much, or isn't noticed, in low speed applications- but on a driveshaft between a tranny and diff, rotational speeds can be very high indeed and oscillations are a potentially big problem.

You can find lots of examples on the Internet where this is incorrectly shown. It is possible that my mech eng colleague is wrong and so is my gut feeling about him being right. That could well be! So if somebody has a mechanical motion model which proves this to be wrong, I definitely want to see it!

If this logic is correct, assuming the Triumph orientation is in fact as described (a squashed U arrangement, angles of same sign) then taking a correctly installed Triumph driveshaft (which has yokes on the shaft aligned), and taking the straps out and bolting the two flanges together, will result in an incorrect cancellation of the nonconstant velocity generated by the u joints because it will rotate the joints relative to one another, putting the yokes at 90 degrees to one another. It should cause vibration and possibly failure of something or another, whatever is weakest- I suspect that would be the two bolts holding the two 2-bolt flanges together. I have heard of one anecdotal report of an owner of an otherwise unmodified Spitfire who did this and had bad results.

Fortunately, and by pure fluke, when my Dad welded up my Toyota-Triumph transition driveshaft, he didn't duplicate what the Triumph shaft had originally- he has the yokes at 90 degrees to one another, which is apparently right for my geometry. I'm sure he didn't do this on purpose. 

If I were to take out the straps and bolt the two flanges together, I would have the original geometry of the Triumph shaft, with yokes on the shaft aligned- which apparently is wrong for my level- sloping upward- level (stretched Z) arrangement.

The cyclic stresses arising from the nonconstant velocity in an improperly arranged shaft would create vibration that would rapidly fatigue the straps. 

The good news is that if I am wrong here, the solution would be easy- just bolt up the two 2-bolt flanges without straps. Problem solved...

Anxious to hear what people think about this. In the meantime I'm cautiously optimistic about my fix.


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## Moltenmetal (Mar 20, 2014)

Oh no...the debate continues! Others on the same forum feel that the sign of the angles doesn't matter as long as they're the same, and that the correct orientation is always to have the yokes of the two U joints on the shaft being aligned...

Damn, wish I could figure this out myself, but this geometry is just too hard to get my head around!


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## Moltenmetal (Mar 20, 2014)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gmV4qwLfOMY



OK... looks like my colleague was WRONG- and I need to get those two U joint yokes to be aligned. Guess I need to try bolting the two 2-bolt flanges to one another and see what happens...


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## Baratong (Nov 29, 2012)

Hey thanks for posting the link to that video. I've been reading about the drive-shaft too lately as I'm about to start work on mine. There is a lot of conflicting information out there. The video makes it real clear what effect the phasing and angles have.


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## Moltenmetal (Mar 20, 2014)

Agreed- the video makes it crystal clear- for the orientation in question, which is the stretched Z.

It's still not clear to me if it changes in the squashed U orientation, but I suspect not. Damn, I wish the video showed that orientation- it easily could have! 

Proof positive that you can be baffled by a convincing argument even when it's wrong! The video demo convinces me though that because we screwed up and have the drive shaft yokes at 90 degrees to one another, I need to eliminate my straps. Fortunately there is reinforcement across the "hinge" point I'm worried about when the 2-bolt flanges are bolted together. The input yoke (driveshaft end) of the lower (rear) u joint has a shaft which extends into the driveshaft- what exactly it bears on in there is not clear but I assume it's a bushing of some sort. This at least will provide something to resist any vibration or other forces which act to bend the 2-bolt flanges in their weak direction (i.e. 90 degrees rotation to the plane of the two bolts).

Baratong: be careful, as your driveshaft apparently has a CV joint- and the geometry there apparently differs from mine! Your driveshaft design puzzles me completely actually, as the CV joint would NOT cancel out the oscillations in velocity produced by the non-CV universal joint at the differential end of the shaft.


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## Baratong (Nov 29, 2012)

Well after reading about the drive shaft issues I've decided to just go to a custom drive-shaft shop and have them make one. These guys are local and experts at it and it will be much better than if I tried to do it..  http://azdriveshaft.com


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## BWA (Mar 14, 2015)

I'll crawl under my 68 Vauxhall, and, 75 Valiant tomorrow, and, check the yoke alignment, also have an MGB driveshaft floating around the shop somewhere, and, will check it....... If I can find it....


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## samwichse (Jan 28, 2012)

Would it be easier to just replace the U-joints with CV joints?


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## Moltenmetal (Mar 20, 2014)

Bolting together the two 2 bolt flanges without straps is dead easy. I will try to video the current arrangement running by slipping the IPad under the car on the stands, and then eliminate the straps and video it again to see if I can notice any difference in oscillations or noise. Then i'll pick a configuration and drive it a bit to see what happens.


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## Moltenmetal (Mar 20, 2014)

Done- 2 bolt flanges are bolted together and u joint yokes at front and back of the driveshaft are now definitely in line with one another. Both up on the stands and on the road, everything sounds and feels fine- but it did before too. My driveshaft angles are fairly shallow so the elliptical motion is small I guess. 

I put tape on the differential input flange and videoed the motion of both arrangements, but saw no difference. If I had an encoder back there and a scope it would be a different story I guess.

Tomorrow will be the real test, driving the new assembly on the highway.


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## Moltenmetal (Mar 20, 2014)

Noticeable improvement in noise/vibration on the highway with the new configuration. Of course, that means I can now hear noises that I couldn't before, so it will take some getting used to!


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## BWA (Mar 14, 2015)

Great, glad it worked.....


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## Moltenmetal (Mar 20, 2014)

Tomorrow we go to British Car Day, the largest British car show in North America.

To get home in a reasonable time, I installed my J1772 port. Not the most elegant job, but it does work. I can use my colleague's charger at work that he installed for his Volt.

I also put a switch in the BMS loop to arrest charge early without having to pull the plug- seems safer and less likely to kill the charger.


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## Moltenmetal (Mar 20, 2014)

Beautiful day at British Car Day- 1100 British cars, most of which made my E-Fire look like a junker- but I am happy to say, I didn't see another electric conversion in the lot, though I didn't tour the entire field.









There were several rows of Spitfires and a good chunk of a row of GT6s...









This guy put a 500 hp Nissan engine in his Spitfire, and unlike me apparently he didn't have trouble getting insurance for it!









A 1957 BMW Isetta- British made, regrettably with Lucas electrics...









And this one, just for JarelDesign- a reverse trike, which a friend says is a Morgan, but my son took the pic so I never actually saw it.

Handed out about forty datasheets- got lots of positive comments and interest, and very few shaking heads (i.e. what did that idiot do to that classic car?)


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## Moltenmetal (Mar 20, 2014)

Bought a Celllog8S and have been doing some logging of my rear pack, since the cell which halts charge by reaching the high voltage cutoff of the BMS first is in the rear ten cells.

Will monitor the other cells in groups of 8 over time, if I get to it this weekend.

So far, it looks like I've got one mildly weak cell. It sags noticeably lower than the rest (but not low enough to worry me at present) during high current draw, and has a rest voltage a bit lower than the other seven too. It is not the first cell to hit HVC during charge- that particular cell looks just fine during discharge, it merely has a capacity a wee bit smaller than its neighbours. I guess one out of 32 ain't bad, but we'll see how the others look when I log them.

Over 3000 pure EV miles and the grin still hasn't left my face! It is a positive joy to drive, even with the top up. It has never left me stranded, and the only things to go wrong so far have been Spitfire stuff that was 40 yrs old and pining for the fjords anyway. So far, so good!

Nov 8th will be the day I park for the winter. Just found out that my insurer requires me to keep some useless coverage over the winter (uninsured driver/vehicle $18/month on a stored car without any chance of claiming it) in order that my policy can be suspended rather than terminated and restarted, as they will not guarantee that they would re-start my policy in the spring otherwise. They will not offer me comprehensive coverage for storage. Insurance here in Ontario SUCKS...

I have lots of plans for both improvements to the features of the car and repair of yet more decrepit Spitfire bits over the winter. I will finally tackle the rear spring so I can do a reasonable rear alignment- tire wear has been bad, mostly due to alignment but I must admit that little burn-outs that are nearly impossible to resist have also taken their toll on these tires!


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## Moltenmetal (Mar 20, 2014)

Implemented a relay driven by the Curtis to turn on my brake lights when regen is above 50A. Works great- HPEVS programs the coil driver for this output to drive a regular 12V auto relay coil. I put its NO contacts in parallel with the Spitfire's brake pedal switch, so either will turn the brake lights on.

I installed two cheap voltmeter-ammeter displays for my battery and DC/DC converter. Just realized that CanEV's schematic leaves the DC/DC on and connected to the 12V aux battery 24/7, which is the biggest drain on my main pack while the car is in storage. It's set for 13.5 V so it keeps the FLA lawn tractor battery fully topped up, but it does waste some energy. Running the DC/DC only when the key switch is in AUX or RUN might be enough, given my DC/DC is 30A while the car's peak draw is only about 15A, but it would be nice to also keep it on when the main pack is charging just yo keep the floodie topped up. Regrettably there's no dead easy way that I can think to do that right off the top of my head. I will pull the fuse to shut off the DC/DC this winter, and will only recharge the aux 12V battery when I recharge the main pack which I will do mid winter. 

Also found out that you can indeed do what I originally wanted- to have off pedal regen supplemented by an adjustable amount of pedal regen operated by a pot on the slop in my brake pedal travel. That way I can defeat the pedal regen with a switch in bad weather to avoid locking up the rear wheels.

Rear suspension will be the big job this winter. Driver's side trailing arm mount needs to be made stronger- it was badly rotted and my repair was not strong enough. Rear spring will be replaced with a new used one with new buttons. Then I will try to do an alignment on the rear. Once it's close, I'll take it in for a real alignment- it's miles out right now.


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## 67BGTEV (Nov 1, 2013)

Moltenmetal said:


> Then I will try to do an alignment on the rear. Once it's close, I'll take it in for a real alignment- it's miles out right now.


You can do the alignment by yourself. I did mine (front alignment in Leaf).
I bought 

A Camber Guage
A Toe measuring scale

It works well and saves a lot of money.. 

I also sent my Controller to be reprogrammed to enable Clutch and Brake light.


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## Moltenmetal (Mar 20, 2014)

OK- so these toe adjusters are just some aluminum plates with stiffened edges that sit against the outside of the tires and you use two match-marked tape measures to measure between them? Current plan is to run two long pieces of aluminum angles as parallels at the wheel centres and then measure to the edges of the rims front and back, then do the math.

Won't be bothering with camber- rear camber isn't adjustable on my car except by using air shocks, and front camber is easy enough to measure with a level and a rule.


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## Moltenmetal (Mar 20, 2014)

Just assembled and installed a new (to me) rear spring. Don't know why i was so hesitant- it wasn't anywhere near as much work as replacing the differential...

Got a list of little tasks to accomplish on the car this winter. All minor stuff, except for the pedal regen scheme.


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## Moltenmetal (Mar 20, 2014)

Got a pot mounted on the slack of the brake pedal, after a false start. Got something which felt good and which gave me a pot range from about 30 to about 1000 ohms at the onset of significant mechanical brake action. Wired it up, set the brake type (2- 2 wire pot) in the Curtis program mode and checked the pot input in diagnose mode- worked well- giving a rising voltage as the brake pedal is pressed. But when I tried to set the brake pot range (referred to as brake deadband and brake high), the brake high set point wouldn't take- when you set the parameter with the spyglass, you are supposed to press the brake pedal and then push the menu button, at which time it s supposed to move on to save the setting. Regrettably it never moves on- it just sits there, ultimately timing out and displaying a row of asterisks on the Spyglass. 

I thought perhaps a pot input range limit had been set in the software, so to test that I pulled the pot off the mount so I could operate it manually. Even though when I pulled the pot wide open I got a 3.5V signal in diagnose mode (more than enough span on the pot), it still would not program a high point setting properly.

The odd thing is that when I had the car in diagnose mode, the brake light relay would come on when the pot was actuated- as if it were actually being set up properly. However, without the brake high set point being set properly, the software won't go on to the next step so I can set the neutral braking (off pedal regen setting) and brake max current settings.

Will need to call HPEVS and see if they can help- they've been very helpful in past.


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## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

Interesting. I would imagine that you will have to do a bit of road testing to get it dialed in for your liking. I am guessing that with the weight of your car and being rear wheel drive, you will probably be less than 50% for your regen setting. I bet you see an efficiency improvement with your brake pot if you are not using off throttle regen.


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## Moltenmetal (Mar 20, 2014)

Turns out I have a bug in the software of the Curtis controller as supplied by HPEVS. This is a known issue and has been repaired in subsequent revs of the software, but apparently they've only had three calls on it so not many people have encountered it.

Fortunately, it only affects the ability to set the brake high and brake deadband parameters using the Spyglass- you can still set them with the programmer if you have one. And the default parameters (3.5 V high and 0.3 V deadband) are easy enough to work around. The neutral and pedal braking current settings are in another menu and apparently are not affected by the bug.

HPEVS were exceptionally helpful over the phone, and Randy at CanEV has a loaner programmer that he will ship to me if I need it. I doubt I will- I'll experiment when I get the car back on the road in the spring. 

A minor problem, and I'd say the support on this stuff is exceptional- I couldn't be happier.


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## Moltenmetal (Mar 20, 2014)

Another thing HPEVS mentioned is that I should have implemented a clutch switch, as the neutral (off pedal) regen braking will tend to stall the motor during shifts otherwise. Easily enough done, so I'll do it. CanEV's schematic doesn't mention the need for the clutch switch, and I've driven the car perfectly fine without one for 3,300 miles so far, but I would imagine it will make shifting quicker and more responsive. Less so if I can make my brake pedal regen work, but I suspect I'll end up with a little off pedal regen at least for a while until I'm used to and satisfied with the function of the brake pedal.


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## jwiger (Oct 18, 2014)

Can you heel-toe downshift?


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## Moltenmetal (Mar 20, 2014)

No way- too much of a spaz to drive like that!


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## Moltenmetal (Mar 20, 2014)

Here's a link to my buddy Danny's video, partially about the car, and the rest being an interview and performance with the Milk Carton Kids, a California band with a Grammy nod. Check out other Dan's Space Van episodes at www.dannymichel.com, as well as his recordings- he's a brilliant songwriter and musician. The episodes with astronaut Chris Hadfield and songwriting madman Steve Poltz are particularly good.

https://youtu.be/7c2K6kc6IMQ


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## Moltenmetal (Mar 20, 2014)

Beautiful day today, and roads were dry, so I thought I'd take the car out for a spin and hopefully test the changes I made over the winter as well as to settle the rear suspension so I can do a rough alignment.

Well, my regenerative braking arrangement works great- now operating from a pot on the slack in my brake pedal. I can defeat it with a switch on the dash, in case of wet weather (so I don't lock up the rear wheels). But something weird is going on- the car accelerates sluggishly and peaks out at 100 A- and the battery light on the Curtis Spyglass goes red at even a very modest voltage drop of a few volts off my nominal pack voltage- as if the controller is putting the car into limp mode... I have no connection to the controller to set a limp mode... The regen current limit is working fine. I set the brake type back to zero (no brake pot) just to check, and no change. 

The other thing I put in place is a clutch switch. Disconnecting it had no effect, neither did shorting it. 

Guess I will be calling HPEVS to see if they have any ideas.

I went back through and checked my programmable settings- current limits, accel rate etc., and all of it seems to be correct and unchanged. It's quite a puzzle to me. Fortunately, other than this which I'm confident I'll get to the bottom of, everything seems to be working.


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## EVisa (Jun 30, 2014)

Nice that you have it on the road again. It's EV season again .

It's hard to help you out with those problems form a distance though. It may be a stupid question, but what does the manual of the Curtis Spyglass tell about the battery warning?

Sluggish performance, and 100A max. would suggest to me something like under or over voltage at the controller, temperature sensor issue (it might think the motor runs too hot), or some fault with the optical encoder. What other reason would the controller have to cut back power?

That said, any of the above would apply to regen as well I would think. Is your BMS talking to the Curtis in any way? If so, a BMS issue could a plausible suspect.

I'm only thinking aloud here... Don't know if it helps.


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## Moltenmetal (Mar 20, 2014)

Voltage displayed on the Spyglass is normal- certainly nowhere nearly as low as it has been in past. There is no connection between the BMS and the controller. Temperature and speed feedback from the motor are normal as shown on the Spyglass. I'm thinking that some setting in the controller was accidentally changed while I was setting up the brake and clutch settings. Have to go through the manual and see what it could be. The guys at HPEVS gave been very helpful in past and may be able to help me narrow it down.


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## samwichse (Jan 28, 2012)

You added regen in a pot on the brake pedal... is it possible something in your settings isn't quite going to zero there and there's a brake/regen safety interlock limiting amps when say... the controller thinks you have a foot on the gas and the brake at the same time?


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## Moltenmetal (Mar 20, 2014)

Possible, but the throttle has a switch on it and a deadband setting, and the brake pot has a deadband setting too. I also have a switch which shorts the brake pot inputs to defeat regen entirely. Flipping that switch had no effect- the car still limps.

Will do some digging in the programming manual and will have to go through each setting one by one to make sure nothing has changed. It is awkward to do that with the Spyglass and the menu button- takes a long time and a second's I attention means you need to go through it all again.


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## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

Moltenmetal said:


> and peaks out at 100 A-


Did you have the 3 phase cables removed? This almost sounds like mixed up U,V,and W cables.


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## Moltenmetal (Mar 20, 2014)

Nope, the controller and motor have stayed put the whole time. If the phases were switched, it would spin backwards...I have my phase cables marked so I don't mess that up if I need to remove the controller.

Talking to HPEVS, the one thing they suggested was that I might have messed up the "base speed" setting, which is supposed to be 2200 rpm. I'm still not clear what this setting means. It was indeed wrong, and I reset it, but couldn't drive the car last night to test it. Revving the motor with the transmission in neutral still wouldn't take the current much above 100 A and acceleration seemed sluggish relative to what I recall, but I wasn't in the habit of flooring the car with the tranny in neutral so I'm not certain of that. 

I double checked the field weakening setting, which is correct at 60%.

Resetting the brake type to type 0 (no brake pedal) doesn't change anything as far as the performance of the motor in neutral. Talking to HPEVS, the brake pot settings are ignored when brake type is set to zero (off-pedal regen only), so that would seem to rule out the possibility that my brake pot deadband is wrong and the controller thinks I'm applying brake and throttle at the same time. I spent a lot of time messing with the brake pot position to give it the maximum sensitivity with the limited travel I have in the slop of my brake pedal. 

It's apparently the same with the econo mode and clutch switch settings- if the switches aren't engaged (contacts closed), the controller pays no attention to these settings, so it doesn't matter if they've been adjusted. I haven't fitted an econo mode switch yet but plan to eventually, and I did my testing without engaging the clutch switch.

In contrast to the acceleration, once I have the motor up to full RPM, I can regenerate 200 A with ease by applying the brake pedal. So the regen braking is working to my satisfaction, even though I can't adjust anything other than the regen current. I'm anxious to get this current limit problem fixed so I can try it out in real driving- I think I'll get a significant boost in efficiency because it was tough for me to resist taking my foot off the accelerator completely every time the brakelights ahead of me came on- it's a tough instinct to break.

I checked the normal acceleration parameter and it's right where I had previously set it- 0.3 seconds. I also double checked and in fact re-set both the throttle deadband and throttle max, so they're both good.

It's definitely not battery undervoltage causing the controller to cut back- I fully charged my pack (previously I was keeping it hovering around 50% DOD for storage over the winter), and pack voltage doesn't sag very much at all at only 100 A draw.

I don't get any error codes on the Spyglass, and can't observe the controller's two LEDs while driving unless I were to tape a cellphone under the hood and video it. Without a programmer I can't check the error code history log.

The other odd thing I notice is that the brakelight relay comes on when the brake isn't depressed and the throttle isn't depressed. It is supposed to come on when the regen current exceeds a setpoint (right now that's 50 A). It does this in both brake type 2 and brake type 0. It resets (turns off) when you touch the accelerator, but when you take your foot off the accelerator again, it comes back on. 

You might recall that I have a buggy version of the controller's software vin which won't actually let me program the brake parameters using the Spyglass. HPEVS offered for me to courier the controller to them and they'd update the software, but I'm worried about shipping it across the border twice. They suggested that Randy at CanEV might be able to do this for me. 

The first dry day we have, I'll take the car out and see if the problem remains. I'll double check with brake type 0. If it persists, I'll call Randy and see if he'll take the controller and update the software for me as HPEVS suggested he might- he has a loaner programmer which he might be able to send back with the controller afterward.


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## Moltenmetal (Mar 20, 2014)

Nope, that didn't work. Resetting the base speed left me with a car which still limps, whether I select brake type 0 or 2.

Next step is to disconnect the brake pot, in case some error checking on the brake pot takes place even if the brake type is set to 0 and it should ignore the pot input.

If that doesn't work, out it comes and it goes back to HPEVS- Randy at CanEV was happy to reinstall the software but felt that HPEVS might be better at troubleshooting the thing than he would be.


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## Moltenmetal (Mar 20, 2014)

Finally, I can say that I'm back to square one, and very happy about it!

I had previously somehow messed up the "base speed" parameter, but Monday night I changed it back to 2200 rpm and took it for a test drive and no dice- same problem. Turns out, somehow I failed to save the change - or maybe I accidentally accessed the "base speed capture" setting under the Diagnostic menu- either way, when I checked this evening, it was at 0 again.

Carefully going through all the parameters and writing them down, in advance of one last call to HPEVS to try to figure out what went wrong, I found the bad base speed setting and fixed it, carefully saved it, then went back and checked to make sur it was saved. I put the brake type back to 0 for the timebeing, punched the accelerator with the tranny in neutral and WHOOM- the motor was back to full power and fast acceleration. 

OK, so that was it! Something simple...feeling like a [email protected] again, but a grateful [email protected] at least!

Took it for a boot around the neighbourhood just for the joy of it, and to bounce around the rear suspension a bit in advance of re-doing the rear alignment- felt amazing to have the thing on the road again with full power! By the time I made my second tour of the loop, it started hailing- and I had the top down, so I booked it back home and tucked it back in the garage. There's still some slack in the radius arm mounts somewhere, so I've got to figure out what that is and stiffen it up, or else my alignment won't stay set.

Next time it warms up outside, I'll reconnect the brake pot and reset the brake type- and then I can finally try what pedal regen feels like. I had an aggressive off-pedal regen setting during my little test drive and it felt amazing- but still difficult to retrain my old driving instincts to avoid driving it inefficiently that way.


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## BWA (Mar 14, 2015)

Sure be glad when I can be having problems like that with my EV


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## miscrms (Sep 25, 2013)

I was thinking the same thing!


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## EVisa (Jun 30, 2014)

I can feel the EV from a very long distance...

Enjoy!


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## Moltenmetal (Mar 20, 2014)

Here's what I think must have happened: in the diagnostics menu, there is a "base speed acquire" menu which it is easy to stumble into. I must have done that in my flailing around to figure out what I screwed up...otherwise, it's very weird that the parameter adjustment, which I definitely recall doing, didn't save.

Anyway, we'll see if the buggy software re-sets the base speed when I reset my brake type!

Onwards and upwards...looking forward to spring with new grinning enthusiasm!


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## Baratong (Nov 29, 2012)

Great to see you got it fixed! Those kind of issues can be very frustrating.


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## Moltenmetal (Mar 20, 2014)

Less frustrating if you're more careful and methodical and less of a [email protected] than I am!

BTW, here's a pic of my logo plate- note the "E" in the negative space in the plug. Not my original idea, but I loved it and imitation is the sincerest form of flattery! I have a couple more that just say "E-Fire" using the plug for the E and the same font for the Fire- one on my dash, one on my hood beside the d/s hood latch.


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## Moltenmetal (Mar 20, 2014)

Had a nice run on Sunday, finally testing the pedal regen set-up. I LOVE it! Much more natural than off-pedal regen. It will take a little getting used to, but even without being able to set up my brake pot properly due to the bug in the Curtis software, the default settings leave the thing quite driveable.

Now on to trying to do a rear alignment...


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## Moltenmetal (Mar 20, 2014)

After a flawless test drive Saturday, I drove it to the Ancaster British car show. Regrettably I didn't stop long enough at work to recharge, and ran into the bottom of one cell - once on the way there, and once on the way back to work. Had to stop and charge- once at a random outdoor outlet at a gas station, and once at a home in the country- nice people, everybody likes the car and is happy to help! 

It appears that I have a cell in the rear pack which is losing capacity. It's down from 180 to 132 Ah, and is likely or hopefully the reason I've been smelling a hint of electrolyte in the trunk since last year.

Hoping it's just the one. Thinking I must have killed it with vibration before I fixed my 40 yr old suspension. Checked voltages on all the other cells, and all are fine- for now.

I have plenty of range for what I need it to do, so I will probably just remove the questionable cell and keep driving. But I learned a couple things: the BMS lvc alarm works, the cell is at lower voltage than its neighbours when discharged and resting so I know which one tripped the lvc alarm, and my Lee Hart bridge was unsuccessful at seeing the defective cell. I would have been well on my way to reversal if I had relied only on the bridge as an indicator.


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## Moltenmetal (Mar 20, 2014)

Oh, and I stopped at a public level 2 charging station- but it refused to start. Wonder how often this sort of crap happens? Pretty disconcerting when you're driving to a particular station and find it's down after hours...


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## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

Moltenmetal said:


> After a flawless test drive Saturday, I drove it to the Ancaster British car show. Regrettably I didn't stop long enough at work to recharge, and ran into the bottom of one cell - once on the way there, and once on the way back to work. Had to stop and charge- once at a random outdoor outlet at a gas station, and once at a home in the country- nice people, everybody likes the car and is happy to help!
> 
> It appears that I have a cell in the rear pack which is losing capacity. It's down from 180 to 132 Ah, and is likely or hopefully the reason I've been smelling a hint of electrolyte in the trunk since last year.
> 
> ...


It may suck a little when bad things happen, but I always find it delightful when one of my safety circuits functions as I intended.


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## Moltenmetal (Mar 20, 2014)

Me too EVMetro- just glad it worked out. Wonder what I can do with that 130 Ah cell? Worried there might be more later...hope not!


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## Moltenmetal (Mar 20, 2014)

Just left the bad cell in place for now, and as long as I stay above 100 Ah I'm good- never get anywhere close to that on my drives to and from work. The Ah in and out are balancing perfectly which is a comfort. I have a jumper in the trunk to bypass the bad cell if I am ever stranded.

...like today....

Accelerator cable snapped on North America's busiest highway, fortunately only one exit from home. Repairing it was out of the question, even with a spare in the trunk (think I put it in there...) so I improvised.









Want to go faster? Pull harder!


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## Moltenmetal (Mar 20, 2014)

The spare cable wasn't in the trunk, but is installed now!


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

Moltenmetal said:


> imitation is the sincerest form of flattery!


imitation is the sincerest form of plagiarism! 8^)
How are you operating the regen ? pics ?


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## Moltenmetal (Mar 20, 2014)

Nothing fancy- just a pot on the slop of the brake pedal. There isn't much slop, so I'm direct-driving the pot arm off the pivot which connects the pedal linkage to the master cylinder. The pot's springs hold the pot arm tightly against that pivot pin.

If I didn't have the buggy version of HPEVS's software in my controller, or I had a Curtis programmer, I'd be able to tweak the sensitivity of the regen- I'd like more current at full pedal than I've got. CanEV said they'd loan their programmer to me and I may take them up on the offer. 

The other critical feature is a toggle switch on the dash that just shorts out the pot, defeating regen in wet weather. That allows you to reduce the risk of locking up the rear brakes first.


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## Moltenmetal (Mar 20, 2014)

BTW Ripperton- riffs on that plug/socket E concept have been around for over a decade and there are MANY of them if you go digging. This one is my own, drawn in AutoCAD and then sent to the guy who engraved it for me. I'm just acknowledging that the idea of the E in the negative space isn't my own.


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## Moltenmetal (Mar 20, 2014)

Turns out that I have an unintentional design feature in my car.

This winter I installed a clutch pedal switch at HPEVS's recommendation. I haven't noticed very much difference in driving with this addition at all, except for one thing- whenever it rains, the clutch switch gets wet and shorts (telling the controller I have the clutch pedal pushed in). When in the clutch pedal "on" state, the controller will still accept accelerator commands, but sets off-pedal regen to a fixed level which you can adjust in the software. Default is 7% which is very little. So, when it rains, I lose regen braking- which is what I wanted, as otherwise the regen braking puts too much braking on the rear wheels and the risk of locking up the rear brakes first is significant. 

The switch I used was just a microswitch, not weathertight. Now that I know it's getting wet, I'll weather-tighten the switch so it won't corrode, but I'll also parallel the switch with a toggle switch on my dash. I already have a switch which shorts out my brake pot to defeat brake pedal regen, and the new switch will allow me to also defeat off-pedal regen while driving.

Took the car to a "show and shine" at the local college- the E-Fire was joined by only one other British car (a lovely E-type Jag) and as usual I was the only electric there.


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## Moltenmetal (Mar 20, 2014)

A pic from the local show and shine event. Lots of interest, with every single person asking about range of course. I'm going to start saying that my range is "almost twice what I need to drive to work- and I have a longer commute than almost everyone I know", before giving them a figure.

I have a couple used replacements for my bad cell, and am in the process of cobbling together a temporary bench charger/discharger to test their capacity before deciding which one to use. It's my hope that I won't have to do this kind of thing often enough to make the purchase of a Powerlab or the like worthwhile! Open to suggestions though on an inexpensive but functional hobby-type charger that will give me meaningful capacity data in an automated fashion without having to rely on my CellLog8.

Will photograph and test my bad cell once it comes out, because I'm very curious what killed it. Some people seem not to acknowledge that a cell can lose capacity in the way this one did- their experience with their LiFePO4 packs is that the cells all stay together and hence a BMS is a waste of time. I wish I didn't have the bad cell, but it is kind of gratifying that my BMS has already proven its worth by preventing me from reversing it while driving.


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## Baratong (Nov 29, 2012)

She's looking good!

I don't see your hood prop bar... did you install gas struts?


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## Moltenmetal (Mar 20, 2014)

Unlike you, I built my front pack too wide to permit the gas struts to pass between the pack and the sides of the fenders where they usually attach. So I use the high tech solution of a chunk of 2x4 underneath the hinge...


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## Moltenmetal (Mar 20, 2014)

If you're interested, I'll be at EV Fest in Hamilton, Ontario, likely only on the Saturday July 16th rather than both days.

http://www.evfest.ca/

I'll be driving the E-Fire, but it won't be in the hall as the display fee is too high to make it worth my while as a DIY with no interest in building conversions for a living etc.

I'm also giving a talk- not sure what time yet.

Also replaced the weak cell in my rear pack with a used but otherwise identical cell I bought from a friend. Will post a photo when I get a chance, after I've determined the remaining capacity. The cell looks perfect except for a little white residue around a few of the holes in the top vent- no bulging, no damage to the case- suspect it's just a leaking vent valve, probably that way from the factory. So far I notice a marked drop in the smell of electrolyte in my trunk, which is a good sign. I've determined the capacity of the replacement cell on the bench, and will have to do some careful driving to establish the new bottom of my pack, i.e. to discover if I have any other similarly weakened cells. My normal commute uses less than 50% SOC so it's no sweat.


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## BWA (Mar 14, 2015)

I will definitely see you there.......

Unless I have to play that day, nothing booked yet so far.....


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## Moltenmetal (Mar 20, 2014)

Will be at the Taste of British Car Day at Black Creek Pioneer Village on Sunday as well BWA...charity event for Sick Kids Hospital.


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## BWA (Mar 14, 2015)

Got some questions about your Cope-ing skills at work too....


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## Moltenmetal (Mar 20, 2014)

Two more victims in the 40 yr old car department: one of the rear U joints went, as did the seal in the clutch slave cylinder. Got the parts yesterday and did the work last night, and am back on the road. Missed a few beautiful driving days!

Good thing I bought two U joints, because the first time installed the replacement, one of the needles got displaced and I had to disassemble and replace that bearing using one of the bearing cups from the 2nd joint.

Followed the recommendations of the Triumph Experience guys by removing the whole axle complete with suspension uprights and brake drum etc.- replacing the U joint in place would have been a hellish job.

Good thing I got to it in time- there were no needles left in one of the bearings on the failed U joint- the bearing cup cracked into pieces as I pressed it out.

Other than these typical 40 yr old car problems, everything is going swimmingly, 6,100 miles in.


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## jacksdad (Apr 13, 2015)

Hi Molten

Nice thread feels nostalgic to me as when i was 14 (1980) my big brother bought a triumph GT6 (1972) he had it 12 years and we did all the maintenance on it together so it brings back good memories, the most classic was the front propshaft joint as i remember you could acces it by taking a cover off on the tunnel which we then lost and drove it around with the joint spinning inches from our legs for about a month we used to poke bits of wood into it.


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## Moltenmetal (Mar 20, 2014)

Yes, they did have a U shaped piece of steel over the front driveshaft u joint, a little more protective than the paperboard transmission cover!

Yes, it's fun to drive with your leg next to a spinning driveshaft...I did that for a few short test drives at the proof of concept stage.


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## Moltenmetal (Mar 20, 2014)

Did something dumb, again, but this time without significant consequences- since I caught it in time.

Back a few months ago when I removed the rear pack to swap out my bad cell, one of the resistors in my rear pack Lee Hart bridge got damaged. Rather than replacing both resistors (the two need to match well to ensure the bridge works), I just disconnected the rear pack bridge entirely, leaving the front pack bridge hooked up. Since I had no switch on the bridges, the "good-balanced" LED ran all the time.

Bad idea. I now have the whole front pack quite a few Ah lower in SOC than the rear...previously I had a very similar draw on the rear pack (different resistor values in the bridge due to different cell count), so the imbalance grew very, very slowly. But with only one LED running, a significant imbalance grew quite fast. 

I will re-balance at my next opportunity, when I will also install something better than the bridges: six cheap Chinese LED voltmeters operated by a single pushbutton switch. I can use these to check balance after charge and at the end of each drive. They draw more than the bridge, but will only be on for a few seconds each drive so it won't matter.


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

Hi Molten

The reason I went with the Batt Bridge is that it shows up if you have a problem under load
Your solution will only show a problem if it is still there when you are not drawing a load


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## Moltenmetal (Mar 20, 2014)

Duncan, my primary protection is still my BMS LVC alarm, and it has saved my bacon already- the battery bridges didn't notice my bad cell, because the imbalance needs to be more than a volt for the LEDs to switch and I never let it get that far. The voltmeters are just a more accurate way to localize the problem quickly rather than going hunting with my multimeter, particularly in my rear pack where regrettably I can't see my celltop board LEDs where they are located- I need to move those one day to a more visible location, but haven't gotten around to it yet. The miniBMS boards switch the LED signal to show which board went low within the past 30 minutes, and during my most recent drive it was clear from those LEDs that my front pack was actually pretty well balanced- almost all of the front pack cells went low at the same time, while the rear pack cells are all higher in voltage. I will turn on the voltmeters any time I'm getting to a low SOC on a long-distance drive, and while it is a bit hard to compare changing numbers, a voltage difference of most of a volt will be pretty easy to see.


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## Moltenmetal (Mar 20, 2014)

Getting old- hurt my knee and was in a straight leg brace for a couple weeks so no driving of any kind. Just got back in the car today- pure EV Joy this time of year!









Thought you might like my little addition to the dash, in place of the heater and vent controls I never used. Six $4 voltmeters, good to perhaps 0.1 V based on testing, each looking at either 5 or 6 cells. And the two V/A meters are for the DC/DC and Aux battery. Switches allow me to turn them off when I like so they don't distract me. Handy when getting my pack back in balance- the LED I left running really messed things up- it took a long time with an external resistor as a shunt around my rear pack to get things back in something close to balance.


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## Moltenmetal (Mar 20, 2014)

A pic from British Car Day- lots of attention was drawn to the only electric conversion out of ~ 1000 cars that registered.


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## Baratong (Nov 29, 2012)

Very nice!


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## 67BGTEV (Nov 1, 2013)

Moltenmetal said:


> I have poor depth perception, but can manage to weld with an auto-darkening helmet. Weld steel, that is- rust doesn't weld too well!
> 
> View attachment 18771
> 
> ...


I didn't follow your build from the beginning. Man, you have done an awesome job in rebuild. 

Sent from my SM-N900T using Tapatalk


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## Moltenmetal (Mar 20, 2014)

Thanks- that means a lot. My work doesn't hold a candle to a pro like EVMetro, but it was a tremendous learning experience. But I do regret doing it- if I knew just how awesome the end result would be, I definitely would have junked my car and started with a Spitfire in better shape! They're not that expensive, especially with a blown 1500 engine (that engine's normal state in my experience).


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## Moltenmetal (Mar 20, 2014)

Hi All- another brief update. After a last gasp snowstorm last week and a couple rains to wash the salt back off the roads, the E-Fire is flying again! I'm just crossing 9,000 fossil-free miles, and aside from the one cell which lost capacity last year likely due to poor manufacture, everything else seems to be going swimmingly.

The average over all those miles, spring through fall and mostly at highway speeds for at least 3/4 of the daily travel, has been 235 Wh/mile out of the battery. Charger plus battery efficiency at level 1 is estimated at about 91% based on my Kill-A-Watt meter, which matches reasonably well with ElCon's claim of 93%. I rarely charge at level 2 and have no kWh meter to measure with when I supply 240VAC. 

I had to replace my brake master cylinder because I got tired of the old one leaking randomly whenever the car sat in cold weather, eating all the associated paint. Word to the wise- if you have an old British car, throw out the clutch and brake master cylinders and replace them. Don't bother with kits!

The differential I installed to replace the original one is still in fighting form as far as I can tell- no leaks, which is a pleasant change from the last one which was just lathered with leaking 90W. It does make a lot of racket on the highway still, and I fear that the sudden reversals from forward to reverse torque due to regen are taking their toll. But then again, I have no reference- any ICE powered Spitfire you ride in is so loud that the exhaust note and engine noise drown out the sounds of the drivetrain unless something else is ready to come apart. I could be worried about nothing, or I might lose this diff tomorrow. No point worrying about it! All the u-joints are solid. 

The suspension is still lopsided and I've given up worrying about it- there's nothing left to replace, after I had to replace the sway bar after an encounter with a road cut which was deeper than my limited ground clearance would tolerate. The car still handles like a charm, tracks perfectly and doesn't wear tires, so unless one of the local Triumph gurus volunteers to come over and help me sort it out, I'm just going to live with it. I do think I need a few more spacers in the front, though- the car is probably at its original design ride height, with the bottom A arm parallel to the ground when the car is unladen, but the ground clearance is just plain uncomfortably low.


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

I agree about the diff
My diff (Subaru) talks to me - it makes all sorts of different noises! - and I'm series DC so no re-gen and only very low braking torque


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## Baratong (Nov 29, 2012)

Great to hear the E-Fire is up for another season.

My Spitfire makes a lot of noise from the rear too. If it were still an ICE, I doubt I would hear anything from the rear so I'm not worrying about it much. Just crank up the stereo!


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## Moltenmetal (Mar 20, 2014)

Update: I had the rear wheel bearings and trunnion bushings replaced by a shop- yeah, I know, I broke down and spent money on a mechanic, and my father is probably spinning in his grave right now, but I just looked at how nasty those hubs were to work with and threw money at the problem. 

Good news is that all, or at least most of, the nasty noises seem to have gone away now. The rear end "click" I was hearing on torque reversal was the bolts holding the two-bolt flanges together on my driveshaft, which just needed to be snugged up. The replacement diff is still singing along, no oil leakage, and hopefully will stand up for a while.

My throttle pot has gone wonky already, and no it wasn't the cheap Chinese knockoff, it was a real Curtis PB-8 potbox with microswitch. The pot is noisy down near the low throttle end, which with a short acceleration parameter programmed into the Curtis (for fun factor), actually results in some very unpleasant jerkiness. In the interim I've set the accel parameter to something more modest and less fun off the line, but it makes the car driveable until I get my replacement pot. I found https://www.tecknowledgey.com/curtis-throttles-pb-6-et126-wp45-ww1-ww2-fp-6.html?p=1 via a search of diyelectriccar.com and they have the special 40 degree 5kohm pot replacements as well as some other types of throttles. Apparently some people switch to Hall effect units- perhaps I will once I go through my replacement.

Otherwise it's been 11,500 miles so far of relatively smooth EV sailing! Still enjoying the car tremendously, though with 1,000,000 EVs on the road now, it's not quite the novelty that they were even 4 yrs ago when I started this project!


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## itchyback (May 28, 2014)

Im enjoying your updates MoltenMetal, helps me plan my conversion for the long term issues. Envy also helps motivate me, looking forward to many EV miles. 
While my suspension is out i'm replacing all the rubber bushes for polyurethane and as well as the ball joints and bearings. The car is basically apart so its much easier now, also means i dont have to take it off the road when its done. Fighting the urge to do it quick and nasty to get on with the fun, but the conversion is as much fun if not more if i'm honest.

Thanks


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## Moltenmetal (Mar 20, 2014)

itchyback, if I knew how well things were going to work out, and how satisfied I'd be with the result, I would have started with a car in much better shape and done a very thorough job tackling all that rotting rubber, rusty bushings etc. while the car had the body tub off the frame. But hindsight is 20/20, and my own cheapness is often my worst enemy. Fortunately, my own cheapness forced me to do this project and learn all this stuff, rather than just going out and buying a boring old Nissan Leaf. Not that a Leaf isn't a fine car, mind- but it's nowhere nearly as inspiring as my E-Fire. Of course my face wouldn't be as sore from the EV grin...

Keep at it! The reward is worth it.


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## Moltenmetal (Mar 20, 2014)

Getting ready for spring:

The rear driveshaft u joint- the last Leyland one in the car- was badly shot and likely the source of the noise. So I re-did that one, had the driveshaft balanced (my dad and I never did after we made it) and had the differential re-built too. It now has a drain for its oil so I can change it effectively too rather than just topping it up with fresh and hoping enough leaks out of the oil seals to keep it fresh. The mechanic who rebuilt it for me said that the gearing was in good shape, but re-did the bearings and seals as well as setting it up properly- it had a lot of slop/backlash.









I also removed the rear battery pack, which I needed to do to give good clearance to get at the four studs mounting the leaf spring to the diff. While I had it out, I moved the minBMS boards from the top of the cells where they were basically impossible to see, to the front of the cells so I can see the blinking lights and tell which, if any, cell last went into HVC or LVC.

I've also noted that a few of the miniBMS boards seem to have developed a little flakiness in their connections to one another, and possibly one of the boards itself is getting flaky. Now that I can see them all, and I have LED voltmeters for groups of cells so I can check the balance of groups of cells at a glance, I'll hopefully be able to hunt down the bad unit which was giving me false BMS trips last fall. It's irritating when this happens, because even if I know it's a false trip, I have no way at present to silence the alarm aside from opening the hood and pulling the fuse on the BMS.

Also have some slop in my driver's side wheel bearing. Last time I had it apart to re-grease it, it looked perfect, but 1/6th of a turn of the crown nut is the difference between a little play when you wiggle the wheel and being tight enough to give a little resistance when turning the wheel. From what I've read, you need to turn the nut until it's "tight" and then back off one hole for the cotter pin, i.e. 1/6th of a turn- and if you leave it too tight, it will wear. May have to try to go 1/6th of a turn tighter though- the slop feels like too much. I do have a spare bearing but don't want to replace it until I can see or hear the wear.

Still not satisfied with my ride height at the front, either- I either need more spacers on top of the shock/spring assembly, which means longer bolts at the top of the assembly, or springs out of a GT6. My weight up front may be heavier than I've guessed. 

Minor problems, of course- the kind you'd expect from a home-made conversion of a 43 year old car.

Wicked spring weather and work travel is keeping me from enjoying the car as early this year as I have in past years. Hopefully it'll be back on the road by May 1, assuming I don't discover any other last minute gremlins which need fixing.


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## Moltenmetal (Mar 20, 2014)

Oh yeah- and although I spent over $100 US on two special replacement pots for the PB-8 potbox plus shipping, I never installed them because a little Nutrol pot spray fixed the issue with the old one. I drilled a hole in the potbox enclosure so I can give it a squirt of Nutrol every once in a while without removing it, so hopefully that will keep it working smoothly for a while.


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## Moltenmetal (Mar 20, 2014)

Life is short- take time to enjoy the flowers, and drive the fun EV to work!


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## terrorr (Jul 17, 2017)

Hey there Moltenmetal. Just wanted to say thanks for posting about your build. I just read all 50 pages of the thread! I just started a Ford Ranger EV conversion. Phase 1 is done and I have test driven about 50 km. A few things posted in your thread have already answered a few of my questions and I learned a few new things too.

Your car looks great. After I do my truck I am considering a fun sports car EV conversion like your Spitfire. Cheers!

PS I am in Calgary. I could definitely relate to some of the more specific CanCon.


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## Baratong (Nov 29, 2012)

Very nice looking Spitfire!


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## Moltenmetal (Mar 20, 2014)

Terrorr- glad you enjoyed it and learned something. This has been one of the best projects I've ever done, and though 43 yr old car parts occasionally disappoint me still, the EV portion of the car is going strong, coming up on 15,000 miles driven so far. 

I just got back from doing a show and tell talk about energy efficiency and electric cars for three classes of students at my son Jacob's high school. They have a good tech enrichment program there and the teachers are all over providing opportunities for the kids to see and experience technology, so the talk is right up their alley and they were very appreciative. I'll be coming back to bring the car to the auto shop teacher's classes- he's hinted he might be interested in doing a conversion as a teaching exercise and student project, and I'd be all over helping with that!

Baratong: your beauty of a Spitfire puts mine to shame, but I am still grinning from ear to ear every time I drive it!


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## Baratong (Nov 29, 2012)

Moltenmetal said:


> I just got back from doing a show and tell talk about energy efficiency and electric cars for three classes of students at my son Jacob's high school.


That's one of the fun things about having an EV conversion! It's great to see the excitement in the students when they realize this is something that they could do as well. 

A couple weeks ago I had my Spitfire in an 'electric car showcase' at Embry-Riddle Aeronautical University here in Prescott. They have a strong engineering program and a student team who are building a custom EV aiming to break the world speed record for an electric car. 

Mine was the only EV conversion at the event, and the students had tons of questions. 



Moltenmetal said:


> Baratong: your beauty of a Spitfire puts mine to shame, but I am still grinning from ear to ear every time I drive it!


Well, all I did was write a check. Mad props to you for doing the paint job yourself!


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## Sparweb (May 24, 2013)

Moltenmetal said:


> Getting ready for spring...
> Also have some slop in my driver's side wheel bearing....
> ....
> Hopefully it'll be back on the road by May 1, assuming I don't discover any other last minute gremlins which need fixing.


Hi Moltenmetal,
Glad to see you back on the road for another year! 
Did you get the play out of the hub?


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## Moltenmetal (Mar 20, 2014)

Hi SparWeb- I broke down and paid the local British car specialist to re-do the wheel bearings on both sides at the rear, and then later to do the bearings and seals in my differential. One of the U joints I did, I must not have put enough effort into seating the snap rings because one of the snap rings popped out and the bearing cap gradually slipped out of position. Fortunately I now know what sounds right- and what doesn't- and I found and fixed the problem before it did any damage. 

Still motoring-driving back and forth to work on a routine basis now, unless it's pouring rain in the morning (and I don't want a wet lap- these cars do leak, a little less with the top up than with it down...). 

I did a "cars and coffee" type show and had a ton of young hotrod- tuner type guys all over the car, fascinated by the fact that it still had a transmission which they saw as a huge plus from a driving fun perspective (I agree with them!). Looking forward to my favorite show and shine event at the local technical college- went to that show two years ago and had a really good time. They skipped this past year for some reason. 

I did finally set my ElCon charger for a smaller number of cells, so that not every charge is now terminated by the BMS. Now the charger spends long periods in the final constant current mode, charging at 1.5 A until the battery voltage finally meets the new threshold. It's less than ideal, but so was the previous voltage which was too high to ever stop the charger before one cell reached the HVC limit set on the miniBMS boards.


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## 76 Spitfire (Jun 18, 2018)

Hi Moltenmetal,

I have an 76 Spitfire tucked into a barn that I bought in Alberta in 1980 and hasn't been driven since 1984. Perfect no rust original paint body. Crappy drivetrain. Considering doing a conversion.
Question 1 - What would you differently if starting now?
Question 2 - I'm in Burlington. Could you let me know what shows/events you may be at this summer so I can come see your car and ask questions?


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## Moltenmetal (Mar 20, 2014)

Hi 76,

Here are the definite things I'd do differently if I were to start over:

1) Start with a car in better shape, because it's going to ROCK when it's done!
2) Repair the suspension when you've got the body off (not needed in your case, but do the front when the engine's out). Do it all- new shocks, new springs, new bushings. That's hindsight of course as mine needed it all done, but I should have known.
3) Chevy Volt battery pack- straight up 1/4 the cost of the pack I bought, for batteries that are actually better quality. That of course opens up a new can of worms about how to configure the pack to use the AC50/Curtis package, how to do a BMS for that etc., but I'd definitely do it.
4) No MiniBMS because it's no longer available
5) Save the money on the DC/DC- you don't need it. Just put a battery charger in parallel with the main charger to recharge a U1 lead acid lawn tractor battery- it's big enough to get you where you're going with no DC/DC
6) Less weight up front, more in the rear, so you can transfer more torque to the road and have a little more road clearance
7) Replace all the U joints with greasable ones, or else you will be doing so later
8) Make sure the diff is in good shape before you begin- if not, get it rebuilt
9) If the car doesn't need floor pans, you might want to keep the underpadding etc. as it will cut down on the noise. Mine is bare steel everywhere except in the footwells and it telegraphs tranny and diff noise a little too much for my liking. Sounds like a transit bus when you're driving it- the whole thing of having a silent car is much more fun if you're not going to have an exhaust note- you don't want gearbox racket instead.

Things I'd think about:

1) The HPEVS system is dead easy, but pretty spendy. I'd consider Frankensteining something out of an OEM EV and using some of the cool components that some of the guys here have developed so you can re-use OEM parts.
2) A differential swap, but they're very hard to do and there aren't many options.
3) I don't regret the Toyota tranny- if you go the AC50 route you can buy the CanEV tranny mounting plate and hub and have an easy, perfect fit. It does take a bit of work to modify the cardboard tranny tunnel etc. but that's life. Making an interface driveshaft between the tranny and diff is easy or you can just measure and get a driveline shop to do it for you- whatever you do, get it balanced when you're done. Just make sure that if you go with the Toyota W50 transmission, you get rid of the stupid flex plates between the diff input UJ and the driveshaft because the Toyota end already has a sliding joint- and make SURE you line up the UJs the right way, i.e. so they're out of phase. 

PM me as I work in Burlington and you can come visit the car at work- maybe we can go for lunch some day. Otherwise I'm afraid my next show is British Car Day at the end of the summer- I don't have plans to go to another one as I'm missing Cars N Coffee in July and August due to other things on the go.

Still loving the drive back and forth to work- you might see me on the QEW some day!


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## 76 Spitfire (Jun 18, 2018)

Hi Molten,

I will HAPPILY buy you lunch in Burlington! I will PM you and perhaps we can do it this week sometime. I have my own business and am generally available.

Thanks!


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## Moltenmetal (Mar 20, 2014)

Had a great visit with 76 Spitfire today- great guy, and he has exciting plans and I hope he posts a build thread here soon! 

Always fun to meet a DIY EV member in real life and take them for a spin in the E-Fire! Hope Baratong will come back sometime again soon too!


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## 67BGTEV (Nov 1, 2013)

Moltenmetal said:


> Had a great visit with 76 Spitfire today- great guy, and he has exciting plans and I hope he posts a build thread here soon!
> 
> Always fun to meet a DIY EV member in real life and take them for a spin in the E-Fire! Hope Baratong will come back sometime again soon too!


No picture=> didn't happen  
Yes, great to meet the DIY EVer..

Sent from my ONEPLUS A3000 using Tapatalk


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## Baratong (Nov 29, 2012)

Moltenmetal said:


> Had a great visit with 76 Spitfire today- great guy, and he has exciting plans and I hope he posts a build thread here soon!
> 
> Always fun to meet a DIY EV member in real life and take them for a spin in the E-Fire! Hope Baratong will come back sometime again soon too!



I would love to return to Toronto -- in the summer . The company I was consulting with in North York was bought by Square and my engagement ended...


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## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

I have not checked in here for quite some time, but this thread was one of my priorities. Good to see you are still at it.


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## ElectricSpeedShop (Dec 4, 2018)

Hey MoltenMetal- This project is really well done! Love it! Any interest in being featured on my blog, which focuses on conversions? Please reach out if so! 

electricss.com


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## jbman (Oct 26, 2017)

ElectricSpeedShop said:


> Hey MoltenMetal- This project is really well done! Love it! Any interest in being featured on my blog, which focuses on conversions? Please reach out if so!
> 
> electricss.com


I was under the impression that his car had been wrecked, regrettably.


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## Sparweb (May 24, 2013)

Say it ain't so!


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

jbman said:


> I was under the impression that his car had been wrecked, regrettably.





Sparweb said:


> Say it ain't so!


Unfortunately true. See E-Fire Mark II

Although it appears at this point that the car is unlikely to be rebuilt (or another Spitfire to be converted with the components), ElectricSpeedShop could still ask Moltenmetal if he is interested in a blog article about the original E-Fire. I suggest a Private Message through the forum rather than counting on anyone to see a forum post.


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## ElectricSpeedShop (Dec 4, 2018)

yes, articles are focused on the build process so its ok if its wrecked, just a sad ending to the story lol.


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## Sparweb (May 24, 2013)

Very sad. MM's E-Fire was one of the build stories that inspired me the most.


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## Moltenmetal (Mar 20, 2014)

Shucks, thanks SparWeb! I LOVED this car passionately and would re-build in a heartbeat if it weren't for the shitty insurance industry in Ontario. I'm fighting them through a Financial Services Commission of Ontario complaint right now and these things are glacially slow- but I'll be damned if I'll pay insurance for a converted Spitfire which is TWENTY TIMES the yearly price that I'd pay for an unconverted one! It's the principle of the matter really.


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