# [EVDL] Flooded vs AGM range



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Hello Adrian,

The problem with Uve's Calculator, there is no input for accessory loads, 
types of road surfaces and battery temperature.

If I remove every accessory load off my main battery pack and drive on a 
very smooth level road at 80 F battery temperature at 25 mph in 1st gear, 
the battery ampere reads about 40 amps at 183 volts. The Uve's Cal. shows 
battery ampere at 65 amps at 172 volts.

Now when I add all the accessory power, which could peak to 7000 watts 
extra, drive on a rough stone embedded road surfaces that is always going up 
and down and pushing through 6 to 12 inches of snow at 25 mph in 1st gear, 
the battery amps now becomes about 125 battery amps at 165 volts.

Remember to connect the DC-DC converters or direct take offs on the load 
side of your battery amp meter shunt Some of the guys ran there DC-DC 
converters directly off the battery side of the shunt or directly off the 
batteries. If the DC-DC converter is wire this way, you will not show the 
correct battery ampere, and some could not figure out why they had half the 
range.

I use a separate accessory amp meter and shunt that comes off the load side 
of the main battery shunt to see what my accessory load is at.

Roland




----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Adrian DeLeon" <[email protected]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, January 18, 2008 1:04 AM
Subject: [EVDL] Flooded vs AGM range


> I'm considering switching from T105 to AGM batteries for my next pack. But
> will I still get enough range?
>
> '87 VW Cabriolet
> 3700 pounds w/passengers (!)
> 19 x Trojan T105 (114V nominal, 1178 pounds)
> Zilla -LV (156V)
> 18-25 mile trips (18 average, 16 minimum) in hilly terrain
> 45-55 AHr used per commute (2.5 to 3 hour recharge w/ PFC20: 2-2.5 hours @
> 22A, tapers to <2A in last 30 minutes)
>
> I can fit 13 x Group 31 batteries for 156V at ~900 pounds. Battery weight
> goes from 32% to 26% of vehicle weight. So something like a Deka 9A31
> would have 1.36x the voltage, just under half the capacity (100AHr vs
> 225AHr), but a better Peukert number.
>
> Uve's calculator shows 50-60% of my original range. Of course it also
> shows ridiculous ranges unless used with a large wind or 3-4% grade. Are
> there any EV calculators that reflect real world driving?
>
> Several EV Album entries suggest I should be getting a MUCH better range,
> and that I have 300-400 extra pounds lurking in my car somewhere  I
> wonder how many of those are "real world" ranges vs calculated or WAG? Or
> maybe it's the hills. THE HILLS!!!
>
> Ideas?
>
> -Adrian
>
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> 

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Roland Wiench wrote:
> > Now when I add all the accessory power, which could peak to 7000 watts
> > extra,
> Uhhh???? Lesse, probably 600 watt DC/DC running all the 12V stuff, two
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

You forgot to account for the DVD player and the big screen TV, plus the
tablesaw and drill press.

Sheesh, I don't think my house draws 7kw unless I'm running the washing
machine and dryer.



> > Roland Wiench wrote:
> >> Now when I add all the accessory power, which could peak to 7000 watts
> >> extra,
> > Uhhh???? Lesse, probably 600 watt DC/DC running all the 12V stuff, two
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

It depends on how much indications, and comfort items you want.

I have also a 120 vac 6 kw inverter, that powers two water pumps, four fans. 
A 145 amp alternator that powers a electric power steering, heater fans, 32 
indicators and 57 lighted switches, three contactors coils that draw 5 amps 
each and many solid state relays, three heaters.

There is also a electric clutch system that uses two 3 hp motors gang 
together to run the accessory drive systems.

I can peak to 100 amps at 14.5 VDC off the alternator. There is 4 DC-DC 
converters that drives the motors at a maximum of 22 amps each. The inverter 
is rated for 5 kw at 40 amps.

35 years ago, My EV started out with two indicators, and had another large 
motor generator and accessory drive motor that is as large as many of the 
motors today that drive a EV that draw 30 amps at 180 volts off the main 
battery pack.

Roland


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Chuck Homic" <[email protected]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, January 18, 2008 8:26 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Flooded vs AGM range




> > Roland Wiench wrote:
> > > Now when I add all the accessory power, which could peak to 7000 watts
> > > extra,
> > Uhhh???? Lesse, probably 600 watt DC/DC running all the 12V stuff, two
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Roland Wiench wrote:
> > I have also a 120 vac 6 kw inverter, that powers two water pumps, four fans.
> > A 145 amp alternator that powers a electric power steering, heater fans, 32
> > indicators and 57 lighted switches, three contactors coils that draw 5 amps
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Peter VanDerWal wrote:
> > You forgot to account for the DVD player and the big screen TV, plus the
> > tablesaw and drill press.
> >
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

----- Original Message ----- =

From: "Doug Weathers" <[email protected]>
To: <[email protected]>; "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" =

<[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, January 18, 2008 11:25 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Flooded vs AGM range



>
> His vehicle is here:
>
> <http://www.evalbum.com/470>


You can also see my modifications and the details at http://go-ev.net/ on =

how the GE traction motor is mated to a transmission, battery connection =

modification and more accessory power added.

It snow here six inches for the first time since last year. So I test out =

driving in 6 inches of snow at 0 F. going up one a very 1 mile long steep =

hill on the road that is in front of my house in the 1st gear ratio of =

19.15:1 at 20 mph. It walk right up this hill to the Hill Top Caf=E9.

Coming down, with out any load on the motor, the EV would run away and be =

very dangerous, so I disconnect the accessory electric motor drives and =

activated the electric clutch that connects the main motor pilot shaft to =

the accessory drive. The EV would do a slow walk down this hill in 1st =

gear, so I had to shift it up to final gear of 5.57:1 for a normal drive =

down.

It is nice to see O battery amps, O motor amps, 180 volt battery pack at 18=
8 =

volts, the alternator charging the accessory battery and providing 14.5 vdc =

at 60 amps and the inverter supplying 120 vac 60 hz at 35 amps, which is =

about 5kw on that run.

Roland




=


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Adrian DeLeon wrote:
> 
> > I'm considering switching from T105 to AGM batteries for my
> > next pack.
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Roger Stockton wrote:
> <snip>
> > My own EV has also been getting poorer range than I expected.
> <snip>
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Steve Peterson wrote:

>


> Roger Stockton wrote:
> > <snip>
> > > My own EV has also been getting poorer range than I expected.
> > <snip>
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

OK, enough thread hijacking...

Any ideas why my Cabriolet will run 20 miles at 55MPH while another will 
run 40 miles at 65MPH? The 400 of the 700 pound difference is mostly in 
battery weight!

I've got Sumitomo HTR-200 LRR tires, lightweigt synthetic tranny fluid, 
and almost no parasitic 12V loads (in the daytime). The brakes/bearings 
are scheduled for a major overhaul this summer - my car doesn't quite 
coast as well as my wife's 2005 Accord.

Currently I drop 10-20V on a 200A draw. Does that seem excessive? 0.1 Ohm 
resistance...

I just ordered a Kill-a-watt to better measure how many amps are being 
returned to the pack.

-Adrian

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Thanks; I guessed the part about "up on stands" but the IR thermometer
didn't occur to me...

--Steve



> Roger Stockton wrote:
> > Steve Peterson wrote:
> >
> > > On Fri, 2008-01-18 at 12:35 -0800, Roger Stockton wrote:
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Adrian DeLeon wrote:
> 
> > OK, enough thread hijacking...
> 
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Good detective work. I was wondering, what losses did the other Metro 
transaxle show?

In previous discussion we put my aircooled VW transaxle in the 40 to 
45 watt hour per mile range but only did so by working back numbers 
in Uve's calculator until the numbers better matched its real world 
power consumption. I don't know my real numbers so I'm quite curious 
to learn what you found out. My old VW unit should be worse as it 
does have a 90 degree final drive.

Thanx,
Paul Gooch



> Roger Stockton wrote:
> [snip]
> > Finally, a friend with a conversion of a car using the "same"
> > transaxle measured his energy use under similar conditions (i.e.
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

I apologise to Adrian since we are well into hijacking now; I'll keep it brief.



> Paul wrote:
> 
> > Good detective work. I was wondering, what losses did the
> > other Metro transaxle show?
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

did anyone see the developement of this vehicle:
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:1BFV01.jpg
> 
the movie "Pentagon Wars" ?


> At least I'm less worried about my conversion now, I won't have any of 
> that.  I was afraid there were too many items I didn't think of, but 
> most of my power will go to my traction motor. No clutch (or at least 
> cable-powered clutch), I'm likely going to convert to manual steering 
> rack, I will have heat and A/C but I will desperately try to minimize 
> their use, and I have no use for lighted indicators, although I think I 
> will try to rig up a watthour/mile gauge, in order to maximize range. I 
> have a 30 mile commute, so there won't be an electron to spare, if I 
> can't charge up at the office. (Planning for worst-case.)
> 
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

>> I'm considering switching from T105 to AGM batteries
>First question: why?

Easier maintenance. Two of my three battery boxes require a bit of fiddling to access - but I'd still need to make sure the connections stay tight with AGMs.
Being able to "hot rod" on shorter trips would be nice, but the local speed limit is 30MPH...

The higher voltage would also be nice. Less I2R loss on my 1/16" x 1" bus bars. It would also get me out of "no man's land" for readily available DC/DC converters (114V nominal). 8V floodies could do this, but I'd be too tempted to keep my battery current cranked up. The 19 extra cells to water doesn't sound fun either.

>Iif you are charging for about 30min after
>your batteries hit the voltage target, then
>you're probably undercharging them. 

Possible, but charge current drops below 1A before the timer shuts off. I'm due for an equalization any day now. My winter range is at least 5 miles shorter than last year.

No e-meter here. Only amp/volt readings, plus what I would consider to be unreliable S.G. readings with a cheap NAPA tester. Even amp/volt readings are difficult due to hills and stop lights.

I was mainly comparing my range with those posted for Rabbits/Cabriolets on the EVDL archive. I don't see how half those conversions can be so light. Quite a few are under the original curb weight!

>>OK, enough thread hijacking...
>Identifying where your vehicle is consuming
> excessive energy seems germane to
>your question...

This comment was directed at the "accessory load" discussion - your suggestions are very helpful. Never condisered driving "wheels up". I use digest mode, so I'm usually a few hours (or days) behind the live discussion.

The tranny efficiency numbers are also interesting. I've never seen hard data about such things, just generalizations like 97% drivetrain efficiency.

Brakes are due for service. I'll probably need new drums/rotors. New wheel bearings wouldn't hurt. I know there's a bit of brake drag. 

Alignment's been done. Tires are LRR. I'll have to test spin the wheels by hand and see if one is significantly harder to turn than the others.

-Adrian

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> [email protected] wrote:
> 
> > >> I'm considering switching from T105 to AGM batteries
> > >First question: why?
> ...


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