# [EVDL] Electric Power Steering



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Has anyone used a totally electric power steering setup in their EV?
I have seen like the ones that appear to go right inline with the
steering column. or actually replace the whole thing in the cab.
It seems like it might be a lot more efficient than an
electrohydraulic power steering pump.
Anyway I see electric power steering columns on ebay every now and
then and wondered if they might be worth a try and if anyone else has
experimented with something like that...

-- 
Tehben
'90 Toyota 4x4 Pickup
'hElix EV'
Website: www.helixev.com
evalbum: http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/1225

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Thats a good question. I've never see full electric power steering units. What kinds of cars use them? Are they just a servo
motor with a gear box? I have heard the electro-hydraulic units (like from a Toyota MR2) are kinda noisy. Not bad if you have an
engine to drown out the pump motor. But in a quite EV you'll definitely notice.

I'm going with the Armstron Power Steering unit in my truck. Maybe if you were to go through that much trouble you could adapt a
Rack-and-Pinion unit to your truck and leave it manual.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]]On
> Behalf Of Tehben Dean
> Sent: Sunday, October 07, 2007 11:10 PM
> To: EV mail list
> Subject: [EVDL] Electric Power Steering
>
>
> Has anyone used a totally electric power steering setup in their EV?
> I have seen like the ones that appear to go right inline with the
> steering column. or actually replace the whole thing in the cab.
> It seems like it might be a lot more efficient than an
> electrohydraulic power steering pump.
> Anyway I see electric power steering columns on ebay every now and
> then and wondered if they might be worth a try and if anyone else has
> experimented with something like that...
>
> --
> Tehben
> '90 Toyota 4x4 Pickup
> 'hElix EV'
> Website: www.helixev.com
> evalbum: http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/1225
>
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

[No message]


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Hello Tehben,

I look at these electric steering column and/or electric units that replace 
the steering rack which can be purchase from hot rod shops. These units 
require a front frame modification and relocation of my front suspension 
A-arms, because the diameter of this unit is larger than the stock steering.

It would be ok, if a person builds a car from ground up and detail it to 
match these chrome or polish stainless steel units. The power rack it self 
cost about $2500.00 for the lower unit that replaces the a rack and pinion 
type of steering. I think the column unit ran that much too.

My existing steering rack sets low and has to swing below the motor which is 
inline with the transmission, so this type of unit would not work for me.

I am using canev.com power steering unit. The pump has to be mounted in a 
vertical plane with the oil reservoir mounted above the pump. If you mount 
this pump directly to a frame member with out any vibration dampers, then it 
will be noisy. The pumps come mounted on dampers on a bracket which I then 
mounted to a 1/4 thick by 6 inch wide bracket with another set of rubber 
dampers, and than mounted the aluminum bracket to the frame with another set 
of dampers.

If I have the hood open and only have the pump running, there is a low hum 
from it. The main motor running, two water pumps, four fans, vacuum pump 
motors, accessory drive motors, transmission gears, and the tires rolling 
over rough surface streets, make way more noise.

Roland


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Tehben Dean" <[email protected]>
To: "EV mail list" <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, October 08, 2007 1:09 AM
Subject: [EVDL] Electric Power Steering


> Has anyone used a totally electric power steering setup in their EV?
> I have seen like the ones that appear to go right inline with the
> steering column. or actually replace the whole thing in the cab.
> It seems like it might be a lot more efficient than an
> electrohydraulic power steering pump.
> Anyway I see electric power steering columns on ebay every now and
> then and wondered if they might be worth a try and if anyone else has
> experimented with something like that...
>
> -- 
> Tehben
> '90 Toyota 4x4 Pickup
> 'hElix EV'
> Website: www.helixev.com
> evalbum: http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/1225
>
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
> 

_______________________________________________
For subscription options, see
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----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

I researched a lot of different solutions for the power steering and in the end could not come up with anything more efficient than the original steering pump. Under normal driving it puts almost no load on the motor until you go into a turn. With the reduced weight on the front of the car the steering turns effortlessly. When traveling straight down the road there is no loss to the 12v battery and no need to have two DC converters like some Ever's just to keep up with the extra loads.

Was it a lot of work re-designing the serpentine drive? You bet! But I am pleased with the results.

Mark Ward
95 Saab 900 "Saabrina"
www.saabrina.blogspot.com






> ---- Tehben Dean <[email protected]> wrote:
> > Has anyone used a totally electric power steering setup in their EV?
> > I have seen like the ones that appear to go right inline with the
> > steering column. or actually replace the whole thing in the cab.
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

[No message]


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

My Yaris has a small motor right on the column, it is totally silent 
and the steering feel is amazing, there is a torque sensor and it is 
speed sensitive and the power used is insignificant.

M




> Mike Willmon wrote:
> 
> > Thats a good question. I've never see full electric power steering
> > units. What kinds of cars use them? Are they just a servo
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

I've considered this as well. As far as I know a
transplant hasn't been done, but should be doable with
some custom work. The only ones I've had personal
experience with are from Honda's, but they look
decently transplantable. It's basically a rack and
pinion with an electric motor attached, it senses your
steering input and helps twist one way or the other
accordingly.

The setup is the rack with the motor and the control
module and associated connectors which would be
important to get. This will draw a decent amount of
current most likely, I believe my Insight's was on a
70A fuse, although I know it varied assist with speed
to where it almost didn't assist at all on the
highway.

I've looked at the wire diagrams and it looks like the
only external signal you need is a vehicle speed input
for it to vary assist with speed (it won't work
without this signal). The only other possible issue is
the EPS system is tied in with the OBD2 system and
has a dash warning light, but it also stores its own
error codes and will tell them to an appropriate
scanner so this might be the only other issue is it
might not work with out this.

Still, if you could get it to work it is a nice setup
and very reliable and simple as far as the mechanics
of it go. 

I know the Acura NSX was the first car they had this
working on, then the Honda S2000 got it and that was
modified to fit the Insight too. Any 2003-current
Civic hybrid will have a EPS system. Toyota Prii have
them as well, but I don't know how their system works.
Heck, even some GM vehicles are starting to get them
too.

Later,
Rick
92 Saturn SC conversion
AZ Alt Fuel Plates "ZEROGAS"

------------------------------------------------
Message: 21
Date: Sun, 7 Oct 2007 23:09:50 -0800
From: "Tehben Dean" <[email protected]>
Subject: [EVDL] Electric Power Steering
To: "EV mail list" <[email protected]>
Message-ID:

<[email protected]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

Has anyone used a totally electric power steering
setup in their EV?
I have seen like the ones that appear to go right
inline with the
steering column. or actually replace the whole thing
in the cab.
It seems like it might be a lot more efficient than an
electrohydraulic power steering pump.
Anyway I see electric power steering columns on ebay
every now and
then and wondered if they might be worth a try and if
anyone else has
experimented with something like that...

-- 
Tehben
'90 Toyota 4x4 Pickup
'hElix EV'
Website: www.helixev.com
evalbum: http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/1225



____________________________________________________________________________________
Moody friends. Drama queens. Your life? Nope! - their life, your story. Play Sims Stories at Yahoo! Games.
http://sims.yahoo.com/ 

_______________________________________________
For subscription options, see
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----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

The Zapi ZTA units work very well and are easy to mount. They come in 
3 different torque ratings.

http://www.electrofit-zapi.com/hfelecpowsteer.htm


Shawn Lawless


-----Original Message-----
From: Tehben Dean <[email protected]>
To: EV mail list <xx[email protected]>
Sent: Mon, 8 Oct 2007 3:09 am
Subject: [EVDL] Electric Power Steering



Has anyone used a totally electric power steering setup in their EV?
I have seen like the ones that appear to go right inline with the
steering column. or actually replace the whole thing in the cab.
It seems like it might be a lot more efficient than an
electrohydraulic power steering pump.
Anyway I see electric power steering columns on ebay every now and
then and wondered if they might be worth a try and if anyone else has
experimented with something like that...

--
Tehben
'90 Toyota 4x4 Pickup
'hElix EV'
Website: www.helixev.com
evalbum: http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/1225

_______________________________________________
For subscription options, see
http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

[No message]


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

[No message]


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

The Prius uses an entirely electric power steering assist,
no pump but direct electrical actuated. This leaves out the
messy problems with oil and leakage....

The simplest way of steering is (as always) to remove
the power steering completely and find a manual rack
from a comparable type car.....

Regards,

Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
Email: [email protected] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [email protected]xx.xxx
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Second Life: www.secondlife.com/?u=3b42cb3f4ae249319edb487991c30acb

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Ricky Suiter
Sent: Monday, October 08, 2007 9:53 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Electric Power Steering

I've considered this as well. As far as I know a transplant hasn't been done, but should be doable with some custom work. The only ones I've had personal experience with are from Honda's, but they look decently transplantable. It's basically a rack and pinion with an electric motor attached, it senses your steering input and helps twist one way or the other accordingly.

The setup is the rack with the motor and the control module and associated connectors which would be important to get. This will draw a decent amount of current most likely, I believe my Insight's was on a 70A fuse, although I know it varied assist with speed to where it almost didn't assist at all on the highway.

I've looked at the wire diagrams and it looks like the only external signal you need is a vehicle speed input for it to vary assist with speed (it won't work without this signal). The only other possible issue is the EPS system is tied in with the OBD2 system and has a dash warning light, but it also stores its own error codes and will tell them to an appropriate scanner so this might be the only other issue is it might not work with out this.

Still, if you could get it to work it is a nice setup and very reliable and simple as far as the mechanics of it go. 

I know the Acura NSX was the first car they had this working on, then the Honda S2000 got it and that was modified to fit the Insight too. Any 2003-current Civic hybrid will have a EPS system. Toyota Prii have them as well, but I don't know how their system works.
Heck, even some GM vehicles are starting to get them too.

Later,
Rick
92 Saturn SC conversion
AZ Alt Fuel Plates "ZEROGAS"

------------------------------------------------
Message: 21
Date: Sun, 7 Oct 2007 23:09:50 -0800
From: "Tehben Dean" <[email protected]>
Subject: [EVDL] Electric Power Steering
To: "EV mail list" <[email protected]>
Message-ID:

<[email protected]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

Has anyone used a totally electric power steering setup in their EV?
I have seen like the ones that appear to go right inline with the steering column. or actually replace the whole thing in the cab.
It seems like it might be a lot more efficient than an electrohydraulic power steering pump.
Anyway I see electric power steering columns on ebay every now and then and wondered if they might be worth a try and if anyone else has experimented with something like that...

--
Tehben
'90 Toyota 4x4 Pickup
'hElix EV'
Website: www.helixev.com
evalbum: http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/1225



____________________________________________________________________________________
Moody friends. Drama queens. Your life? Nope! - their life, your story. Play Sims Stories at Yahoo! Games.
http://sims.yahoo.com/ 

_______________________________________________
For subscription options, see
http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev

_______________________________________________
For subscription options, see
http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Saturn Vue for one.

There are two types. the kind that go in the column (Delphi,saturn etc)
and the kind that are integrated into the rack(Bosch, honda etc)
I have been wanting to try them, I was told they have an inverter from
12V to 42V that will go away when the systems are 42V and that they use
a simple torque sensor to determine the amount of assist. basically a
flexible shaft linkage and a pair of discs with contacts.

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*[EVDL] Electric power steering*

Has anyone successfully incorporated an OEM electric power steering (EPS)
into their conversion? My Saturn Vue has EPS and I'm having some difficulty
getting it "online".

The EPS has it's own sensors and relies on the original engine control
module for speed info and engine status (all via CAN bus). According to the
factory manual if the ECM is not communicating with the EPS the EPS should
go into a default assist mode. From the little I have driven the vehicle
I'm not getting much in the way of assist (at least not at low speeds when
it needs it).

It did blow the 10A input fuse on my DC/DC converter. The EPS can draw up
to 65A max and the converter is rated at 55A max (although I'd hope the
accessory battery would "kick in" some current). Before adding a dedicated
DC/DC just for the EPS I thought I'd query the group.

Thanks as always,
Barry Oppenheim
New Hope, PA
www.JustAnotherEVConversion.blogspot.com

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Electric power steering*



> Barry Oppenheim wrote:
> > Has anyone successfully incorporated an OEM electric power steering (EPS)
> > into their conversion? My Saturn Vue has EPS and I'm having some difficulty
> > getting it "online".
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Electric power steering*

On Thu, Mar 12, 2009 at 8:50 PM, Barry Oppenheim


> <[email protected]> wrote:
> > Has anyone successfully incorporated an OEM electric power steering (EPS)
> > into their conversion? My Saturn Vue has EPS and I'm having some diffi=
> culty
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Electric power steering*



> Barry Oppenheim wrote:
> >
> > Has anyone successfully incorporated an OEM electric power steering (EPS)
> > into their conversion? My Saturn Vue has EPS and I'm having some
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Electric power steering*

Interesting. I'll have to take a closer look at the schematic and physical 
connections between the EPS motor and controller.

Do you have a separate DC/DC convertor for the electric power steering? How 
many amps does the power steering draw?

Thanks,
Barry
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Otmar" <[email protected]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Sunday, March 15, 2009 8:41 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Electric power steering


>
>


> > Barry Oppenheim wrote:
> >>
> >> Has anyone successfully incorporated an OEM electric power steering (EPS)
> >> into their conversion? My Saturn Vue has EPS and I'm having some
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Electric power steering*



> Barry Oppenheim wrote:
> >
> > Interesting. I'll have to take a closer look at the schematic and
> > physical
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Electric power steering*

"I think you want to look between the EPS controller and the rest of the car
for connections to fake. "

Pretty sure that's the CAN bus. Which means setting up a node on the bus to 
fake the required signals. Time to breakout the PIC programmer 

Barry

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Otmar" <[email protected]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Sunday, March 15, 2009 9:30 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Electric power steering


>
>


> > Barry Oppenheim wrote:
> >>
> >> Interesting. I'll have to take a closer look at the schematic and
> >> physical
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Electric power steering*

Why not just get past all this digital stuff and direct connect the pump
motor to 12V with a proper contactor?

To quote a sign I recently saw mis-quoted in China: Keep It Simple and
Stupid

Stephen Chapman




> Barry Oppenheim wrote:
> >
> > "I think you want to look between the EPS controller and the rest of the
> > car
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Electric power steering*



> enganear wrote:
> > Why not just get past all this digital stuff and direct connect the pump
> > motor to 12V with a proper contactor?
> >
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Electric power steering*

Stephen,

Thanks for the input. As Jake mentioned there is no pump. Just an electric
motor to assist the steering.

Aside from that your suggestion regarding a direct connection may be a
solution. But since the controller is an integrated part of the electric
motor and steering column it's not as easy as just finding two wires and
bypassing the controller. It means taking apart the steering column,
something I'd like to avoid if possible.

Gotta love the irony of 21st century circuitry controlling 19th century
mechanics 

Barry








> enganear wrote:
> > Why not just get past all this digital stuff and direct connect the pump
> > motor to 12V with a proper contactor?
> >
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Electric power steering*



> Otmar wrote:
> 
> >
> >
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Electric power steering*

On Mon, Mar 16, 2009 at 4:25 PM, Roger Heuckeroth


> <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> > I will be using an hydraulic pump on my Audi conversion, and I don't
> > want mine to be a constant current draw.
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Electric power steering*

This is an interjection for controlling an electric hydraulic pump for older 
power steering, I'm thinking add two switches to the accelerator linkage, 
perhaps at the resistor such that one turns pump on at a fraction above zero, 
and the second switch shuts it down at above 20 MPH. But might need a bypass 
valve from pressure line to return line or it gets too hard to steer, when 
pump is off.

I liked the idea with a magnet on the steering shaft and a reed switch to 
activate a relay to turn the pump on too. just shut pump off when steering dead 
straight ahead. That's the only time you don't need it. Not all PS units, 
especially rack and pinion, can stand the stress of steering without the pump 
helping, I destroyed a Chrysler Le Baron and a Ford Aerostar rack and pinion 
units personally. 

Dennis of EVtrainingCenter (Opening Labor Day, 2009)


In a message dated 3/16/2009 12:33:09 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, 
[email protected] writes:




> Otmar wrote:
> 
> >
> >
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Electric power steering*



> Evan Tuer wrote:
> 
> > On Mon, Mar 16, 2009 at 4:25 PM, Roger Heuckeroth
> > <[email protected]> wrote:
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Electric power steering*

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b25zOiBodHRwOi8vbGlzdHMuc2pzdS5lZHUvbWFpbG1hbi9saXN0aW5mby9ldgoK


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Electric power steering*



> Roger Heuckeroth wrote:
> >
> >
> > Otmar,
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Electric power steering*



> Evan Tuer wrote:
> 
> > On Mon, Mar 16, 2009 at 5:31 PM, Roger Heuckeroth
> > <[email protected]> wrote:
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Electric power steering*



> Otmar wrote:
> 
> >
> >
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Electric power steering*

T24gTW9uLCBNYXIgMTYsIDIwMDkgYXQgODoxOCBQTSwgUm9nZXIgSGV1Y2tlcm90aAo8cmhldWNr
ZXJvdGhAaHZjLnJyLmNvbT4gd3JvdGU6Cgo+PiBodHRwOi8vc2hvcC5lYmF5LmNvLnVrLz9fZnJv
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CgpfX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fXwpHZW5lcmFs
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bWFpbG1hbi9saXN0aW5mby9ldgoK


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Electric power steering*

If I remember correctly the OEM Audi pump is rated for 1400 psi. I =

read somewhere else that most power steering pumps are about 800-1000 =

psi. I suppose the only downside may be more steering effort.



> Evan Tuer wrote:
> 
> > On Mon, Mar 16, 2009 at 8:18 PM, Roger Heuckeroth
> > <[email protected]> wrote:
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Electric power steering*

Mark I think this is AWSOME!! I want to do this for my Jetta VR6. I am a
computer programmer by profession. I have a ton of questions. Would you
mind if I ask you directly rather than tie up the list with them?

Jim M





> Mark Farver-3 wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Electric power steering*

Actually I think the list would be a great place for that discussion. It is
directly related to a subsystem required for converting an EV.

Barry Oppenheim
New Hope, PA
www.JustAnotherEVConversion.blogspot.com

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]]On Behalf
Of maJiCMan
Sent: Tuesday, March 17, 2009 7:46 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Electric power steering



Mark I think this is AWSOME!! I want to do this for my Jetta VR6. I am a
computer programmer by profession. I have a ton of questions. Would you
mind if I ask you directly rather than tie up the list with them?

Jim M





> Mark Farver-3 wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Electric power steering*

Fair enough, Barry. 

Here goes...

Mark, I am interested to know: is the software open source or is it
proprietary? As I said, I am a computer programmer by professsion and I am
very interested to see what this code looks like. Is there any possibility
of getting a look at it???? 

Is the software, table driven so that it is easier to "plug in" other car
models? What hardware (CPU) is used?

I am interested in working on a project like this. Where does one even
begin to reverse engineer these devices? What kind of tools do you use to
dig out the necessary information? How would I decipher the information
that the Jetta needs.

This should make a decent start on questions... 

I think it is important to be able to use the systems in more modern
vehicles. There is a lot of functionality in the control modules in newer
vehicles that could be used if we can interface with them.

Jim M





> Barry Oppenheim wrote:
> >
> > Actually I think the list would be a great place for that discussion. It
> > is
> ...


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