# 40hp/46lbs; 200hp/85lbs - 400hertz.net



## Dennis (Feb 25, 2008)

> 400 Hertz Engineering; concrete cutting equipment
> http://www.400hertz.net/Categories/Motors.htm
> 
> ME450
> ...




It's 400 hertz so of course it will be light weight. It is the same principle as transformers. Btw, 400 hertz motors have been used in the aviation industry for a couple of decades now. 

A controller to power a 200 HP, 400 hertz, AC induction motor would cost MORE than EVnectics 1000 amp DC Soliton 1 controller. I am sorry, but DC conversions are going to be king because of the price/performance ratio advantage. It takes too many IGBTs to build an AC controller and IGBTs are expensive that must work at high voltages and high currents.


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## EVfun (Mar 14, 2010)

I guess I would have to ask what you want to do with it before I could really think about it. If you want to build an electric motorcycle or race vehicle that weight looks attractive. If you are going to convert a car that will weigh 2000 to 3000 lb. when complete I don't a reason to worry about saving 50 to 80 lb. on the motor. The drivetrain is a good place to overbuild if it doesn't compromise the function.


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## aeroscott (Jan 5, 2008)

I'm thinking of 4 motor (1/ wheel on half shafts) plus 1 or 2 motors to run very powerful fans , the fans would slow the car in a panic stop, create down force and /or augment stability control, improve drag in normal highway driving . In the panic stop instance , the regenerative braking power could be diverted to the fans plus the battery power giving multi megawatt power to the fans , if the motors can handle it (1 or 2 seconds). If the air is sucked from under the car and pushed out forward, down force is increased for stronger breaking giving more regen and even more power to the fans pushing out very high velocity air forward slowing the car .


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

I'd like to know more about that 200Hp motor. Dimensions, torque range, constant vs peak power rating and so on. It seems too good to be true if that is supposed to be 200 Hp constant.


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## Dennis (Feb 25, 2008)

david85 said:


> I'd like to know more about that 200Hp motor. Dimensions, torque range, constant vs peak power rating and so on. It seems too good to be true if that is supposed to be 200 Hp constant.



Not really "too good to be true", because you got to remember that it is a 400 hertz motor, not a 60 hertz motor. A lot of your R/C brushless DC motors are running into the kilohertz range so the motors will have a very high power to weight ratio. So those tech specs seem correct.

Here is a video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2DwGx-QlEAQ which although is very oversimplified in explanation, explains the power to weight ratio of 400 hertz motors.


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## aeroscott (Jan 5, 2008)

great video , 10X and then cooling (thinking closed loop He or H2) can take that way higher .the tig welding videos that followed were great too .


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

Dennis said:


> Not really "too good to be true", because you got to remember that it is a 400 hertz motor, not a 60 hertz motor. A lot of your R/C brushless DC motors are running into the kilohertz range so the motors will have a very high power to weight ratio. So those tech specs seem correct.
> 
> Here is a video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2DwGx-QlEAQ which although is very oversimplified in explanation, explains the power to weight ratio of 400 hertz motors.


Thanks!

So I guess if there's a catch, it would be low starting torque and high RPM powerband? Still, 12k RPM isn't really out of line for those considering a fixed ratio gearbox. If they can do it for RC applications, I don't see why a high frequency controller couldn't be made for a car.


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## Bowser330 (Jun 15, 2008)

gor said:


> 400 Hertz Engineering; concrete cutting equipment
> http://www.400hertz.net/Categories/Motors.htm
> 
> ME450
> ...


I think its an amazing find Gor.

Crodriver brought this up in the past on here, so great minds think alike!

http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showthread.php/good-looking-200-hp-ac-motor-32656p2.html

The 200hp motor costs 20,000$


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## gor (Nov 25, 2009)

Cro- is our hero!

well, its pity about controllers problem - if common controllers work on 8-16 kHz in BLDC and AC - why they (or similar) wouln't chop for 400 Hz?
- rpm range in cars - 5-7000 rpm and for 12-18 000 range can be used just lower gear w/o extra reduction; toothed belt or compact planetary (if necessary)
- sportsbikes always been flying 12-13 000 rpm
- soft start - good for conversions with automatic transmissions


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## gor (Nov 25, 2009)

Bowser330 said:


> http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showthread.php/good-looking-200-hp-ac-motor-32656p2.html
> 
> The 200hp motor costs 20,000$


OMG 
i can't believe it: 
"There 200hp motor is $20,000
There 40hp 12000rpm motor is $5000, I believe you can add a gearbox 2 it if you wish...."
----
- thats sad : ((((

thanks, Bo


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## aeroscott (Jan 5, 2008)

I found a link on diy about running a inverter rated motor with thin lamination's ( standard on high efficiency motors) . they increased the hp from 1/3 to 4 buy running at 400hz without more heat . Industrial inverters often max at 400 hz . Link was from down under .


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

Bowser330 said:


> I think its an amazing find Gor.
> 
> Crodriver brought this up in the past on here, so great minds think alike!
> 
> ...


YOW!

Never mind, I don't need to know the torque range. I don't want to know the torque range.


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## Dennis (Feb 25, 2008)

gor said:


> OMG
> i can't believe it:
> "There 200hp motor is $20,000
> There 40hp 12000rpm motor is $5000, I believe you can add a gearbox 2 it if you wish...."
> ...



Not really. Keep in mind that it is 40* continuous hp*, not peak. The Warp11's are rated for about the same and cost just a little bit less. An industrial 60Hz 3-phase motor of the same HP rating will set you back $5,000 to $10,000.

The voltage level is not too attractive though, because to peak power the motor for drag racing you would have to increase the voltage, and it is already high as it is. Maybe they can offer a 72Vrms version so it can be peak powered with like 250Vrms (360 DC battery pack) for short time periods which will increase power output because the current will increase if the current limit is set properly of course. I can see this motor being a 400 HP monster for short bursts and with water cooling that peak should be for a while before it exceeds the insulation temperature rating.

The gearing will have to be adjusted to take advantage of the torque increase since the speed will not change. The horsepower is torque based in this case rather than RPM based since the torque factor of the horsepower formula is increasing while everything else stays the same much like if you had a 10 HP engine at 5,000 RPM and a 5 HP engine at 5,000 RPM.





david85 said:


> Thanks!
> 
> So I guess if there's a catch, it would be low starting torque and high RPM powerband? Still, 12k RPM isn't really out of line for those considering a fixed ratio gearbox. If they can do it for RC applications, I don't see why a high frequency controller couldn't be made for a car.



With a closed loop vector controller the torque will be just as much as what a DC motor can produce. Essentially vector controllers make AC motors behave like a DC motor.


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## Bowser330 (Jun 15, 2008)

gor said:


> OMG
> i can't believe it:
> "There 200hp motor is $20,000
> There 40hp 12000rpm motor is $5000, I believe you can add a gearbox 2 it if you wish...."
> ...


Hey gor,

I emailed the company about why they do not sell a compatible inverter for the their 150kw motor and they emailed me the following:



> _
> We have 2 sets (two motors, two inverters). We will sell a set (one motor,
> one inverter) for $25,000. They are new except for approximately four hours
> of test time. Original price $37,500 per set.
> ...


The inverter he is referring to above is the AC-150 that AC propulsion sells!
he sent me a pdf of the specs of the inverter and its got a lot of good information. I cannot attach it because it is 1.5mb and the pdf file restriction is less than 1mb. 

*Moderator* can you please allow me to attach the file or can I email it to you first?


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## steven4601 (Nov 11, 2010)

pairing up two evo electric 140 motors might do the trick for about the same money. But you'd have potential of 320kw


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## gor (Nov 25, 2009)

david85 said:


> YOW!
> 
> Never mind, I don't need to know the torque range. I don't want to know the torque range.


constant torque, they running rugged motors on x5 frequency of regular ac motors and getting x 5 times more speed and x5 more power; 
power doesn't care - it 1000 RPMs more or 1000 torks (ft-lbs, nm) more - increases just the same

simms like price tag ridiculously high - only because it's "industrial"

regular ac controllers should modulate, build fake sine wave the same way as industrial - whatever Hz necessary...

http://www.thunderstruck-ev.com/index.php?dispatch=products.view&product_id=14

*Curtis1231C-8601*
Price: $1,450.00

Current (A): 500
2MinRating (A): 500
5MinRating (A): 375
1HourRating (A): 225
Voltage (V): 96-144

*Advanced**functionality, compactpower*
• High frequency, silent operation across the 0–*300Hz *stator frequency range.
• Models available for 350–800A output at24–80Vsystem voltages.

http://curtisinstruments.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=ProductsGrid.ACMotorControllers
curtiss
FAQs
The Curtis AC controllers can outputa *sinewave from 0 – 300Hz *and drive2, 4or6 pole motors. Thise quates to a theoretical maximum speedof 12000rpm for 2poles, 6000rpm for 4 poles and 3000rpm for 6poles. 


http://kellycontroller.com/kim7250b24v-72v500aac-induction-motor-controller-p-1051.html

KIM7250B,24V-*72V,500A*,ACInductionMotorController
Price: $759.00
Controllers upply voltage range, PWR, 18V-90V
•Frequency of Operation: 16.6kHz.
•Configurable battery voltage range, B+,18V-90V.
•Max output frequency can reach up to*255Hz**.*

---
-KHB14801,24-*144V,800A*,OptoBLDCController/WithRegen
2500$

------------------------

does anyone tried to run on high Hz some simple, tuff ac motor (like car alternator, just balanced on higher speeds)?


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

Bowser330 said:


> *Moderator* can you please allow me to attach the file or can I email it to you first?


I'm not really sure how to go about that. Its probably in the Admin settings of the forum but I'd rather not mess with that.

Maybe you can split the file into to parts and upload them separately? I checked for my account and a PDF file of close to 1 meg can be uploaded.

The ACP connection is interesting though.


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## aeroscott (Jan 5, 2008)

A big disadvantage of the low voltage systems is the loss torque at higher rpm's . A high voltage vfd running a low voltage motor overcomes the motors back emf (over volting motor to keep amps high with volts/hz relationship) , meaning full optimum torque at ax rpm's . motor starts off at low hz and low volts as it gains speed and hz goes up so does voltage , To compensate for higher back emf .


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## gor (Nov 25, 2009)

Bowser330 said:


> Hey gor,
> 
> I emailed the company about why they do not sell a compatible inverter for the their 150kw motor and they emailed me the following:
> 
> ...


Bo, _$37,500_ - you sure he didn't ment this 150kw inverter? (pict) 







http://www.400hertz.net/faqs.htm
*Q: How big is an inverter?*
*A:* Today it’s very small. Our 15 KW inverters in their protective box with extra cooling fans and weigh approximately two pounds per horsepower of output. 
http://www.400hertz.net/Products/CV-400-15-240.htm
CV-400-7.5-240 Electrical Input: 8 KW; Electrical Output: 7.5 KW; Weight: 16 Pounds 
CV-400-15-240 Electrical Input: 16 KW; Electrical Output: 15 KW; Weight: 32 Pounds 

150 kw-320 lbs


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## ProfessorPaul (Aug 23, 2010)

Getting back to the smaller motor at the start of this thread, I've been running a PMDC motor in my rig for almost 3 years that weighs ~50 pounds. I can get 50 hp out of it if I am willing to pull up to 2C out of my pack (260 A, haven't had to go there much) at which point my fully charged CALB pack would still be around 150 VDC. 40 hp continuous looks like no problem, with good airflow. It wasn't cheap, but neither was it outrageous, and the controller cost was typical.

This motor is a pair of the largest motors Lynch Motor Company makes, joined (by them) in tandem with a single output shaft, designated LEM-2X2-D127; cost me about $4000 to import at the time. It moves my small hatchback car up and down the highway just fine, even with a passenger and some luggage. (Probably not capable of steep mountain climbs at such speeds.)

For a small car, I definitely think the weight saved relative to a comparable series wound motor is significant. The smaller volume helped me, too. The fact that I get significant regen fully under my control makes it well worth the additional investment for me. The car is light weight to start, definitely a subcompact by today's standards. See it in the garage or at #2224 in the EV Album


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## Genius Pooh (Dec 23, 2011)

It's very light weight but too expensive..

ME1002 26kw peak 65kw but 86kg but 1000dollars..

3 -4 ME1002 motor is worth than that motor I think....but too heavy


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