# 2014 Subaru Crosstrek Conversion



## pikaroo (9 mo ago)

Forgot to add the pic. 

There will be _some_ changes to increase her efficiency. 

Snorkel will obviously have to go.
Roof rack is already only on for trips when necessary.
May put some slightly less aggressive tires on her when the MT’s wear thin.


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## remy_martian (Feb 4, 2019)

You don't need the clutch...since you're an ASE, you can also rip the gears out of the tranny to lighten it up as you'll only need two of the five speeds.

Snorkel, tires (gives it a nice look, including what appears to be a bumper) and flag stay....cuz, there's nothing more ironic than a ******* (you can type fuck on this site but one word "red neck" is a no-no, lol) flying an American flag on a Japanese truck/suv 😂


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## remy_martian (Feb 4, 2019)

....nah...ditch the snorkel


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## pikaroo (9 mo ago)

remy_martian said:


> You don't need the clutch...since you're an ASE, you can also rip the gears out of the tranny to lighten it up as you'll only need two of the five speeds.
> 
> Snorkel, tires (gives it a nice look, including what appears to be a bumper) and flag stay....cuz, there's nothing more ironic than a ***** (you can type fuck on this site but one word "red neck" is a no-no, lol) flying an American flag on a Japanese truck/suv [emoji23]


I mean, _some_ Subaru’s are actually made in the US. Quite a few, really. Mine is most definitely not though, haha. 

I do know I don’t need the clutch, but I love driving manuals and haven’t had one in about 7 years. 



remy_martian said:


> ....nah...ditch the snorkel


Felt the snorkel would be a bit out of place without an ICE. 


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## Electric Land Cruiser (Dec 30, 2020)

I'm interested in seeing how it goes for you. The thing with Subarus is that they are all the same so if you can convert a Crosstrek you can convert any other Subaru from the past 25 years in exactly the same way. The other thing about Subarus is that their engines suck and kill themselves in multiple ways. Otherwise they are lightweight and well engineered chassis just waiting for an EV conversion. Personally I would not convert that particular one because you have to realize your range is going to be greatly reduced and you won't be able to get out there to camp or do road trips. Unless you have another vehicle.


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## 26979 (May 19, 2012)

I'm putting the chassis from an Outback underneath a 1964 Ford Falcon van. I'll be installing the rear sub-assembly in the same relation to the front sub-assembly so I can use the drive shaft.
My plan is to use the automatic tranny without the torque converter (I hadn't thought of removing any gears).
I was thinking of using a Netgain 9 " but that is a decision that can wait as there is an awful lot of work just to get the engine and transmission out. 
BTW the net result will likely be lighter than the existing vehicle. The engine/tranny has got to be 650+ there is 165 counter weight at the very back and some significant axle assembly that will be replaced.
I'll be watching your build with interest


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## remy_martian (Feb 4, 2019)

An automatic will not hold its clutches without running the front pump that's driven by a running ICE and the torque converter. How you planning to pressurize the tranny?


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## Bratitude (Jan 23, 2020)

Why not get a 2019+ crosstrek hybrid transmission, lock the input shaft and use mg1 and mg2 for drive? It’s essentially a gs450h gearbox but with Subarus awd system.
I’m in Canada so these are harder to come by, but I’m planing on swaping my leaf motor in my BRAT with one of those gearboxes.


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## remy_martian (Feb 4, 2019)

Spiffy!

Any idea what MG1 and MG2 put out for kW? 

The stack on MG2 looks pretty short...


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## DaviLightning (10 mo ago)

Welcome! I've got a soft spot for Crosstreks. Looking forward to how this turns out.

This one used to be mine, but I sold it to buy a truck. I do miss it:


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## remy_martian (Feb 4, 2019)

Foglights aren't busted...poser car 😂


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## Electric Land Cruiser (Dec 30, 2020)

Subaru people are funny. Big steel bumper and winch etc etc on a piece of tupperware


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## pikaroo (9 mo ago)

Electric Land Cruiser said:


> I'm interested in seeing how it goes for you. The thing with Subarus is that they are all the same so if you can convert a Crosstrek you can convert any other Subaru from the past 25 years in exactly the same way. The other thing about Subarus is that their engines suck and kill themselves in multiple ways. Otherwise they are lightweight and well engineered chassis just waiting for an EV conversion. Personally I would not convert that particular one because you have to realize your range is going to be greatly reduced and you won't be able to get out there to camp or do road trips. Unless you have another vehicle.


I think your engine reliability data may be a bit outdated. They have been pretty damn reliable for the last 15 years or so. The days of “when, not if, the head gasket goes” are gone.

I do know it is not the prime candidate, and I know there are some heavy compromises that I need to make. But I have weighed the pros and cons for close to a year now, and decided the pros outweigh the cons _for me._

As much as I love all things ICE, I do think Electric is the future. Getting this project done now lays the groundwork for future upgrades. I can swap to a different motor for more power, or add a second one. And most importantly, I can swap the battery packs for higher density packs as technology (and my wallet) improves, and get better range. I can install a better charge controller to “fill up” faster. I have had this Subaru for 7 years. I think the technology we will have 7 years from now is going to be absolutely incredible. The new Hummer can charge for almost 100mi of range in 10 minutes by basically splitting the battery pack and charging both at once. I think 10 years from now, we will be able to fill a battery pack in the amount of time we could fill a gas tank, or at least close to it. And that tech will trickle down to the tinkerers and hackers like me. 



Electric Land Cruiser said:


> Subaru people are funny. Big steel bumper and winch etc etc on a piece of tupperware













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## pikaroo (9 mo ago)

Bratitude said:


> Why not get a 2019+ crosstrek hybrid transmission, lock the input shaft and use mg1 and mg2 for drive? It’s essentially a gs450h gearbox but with Subarus awd system.
> I’m in Canada so these are harder to come by, but I’m planing on swaping my leaf motor in my BRAT with one of those gearboxes.
> View attachment 128845


That is a cool bit of tech, but a large driving force behind this is having the manual trans. 


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## pikaroo (9 mo ago)

DaviLightning said:


> Welcome! I've got a soft spot for Crosstreks. Looking forward to how this turns out.
> 
> This one used to be mine, but I sold it to buy a truck. I do miss it:


Love the Yellow! I am seriously contemplating wrapping mine yellow when I’m done with the conversion. 


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## pikaroo (9 mo ago)

BriMac said:


> I'm putting the chassis from an Outback underneath a 1964 Ford Falcon van. I'll be installing the rear sub-assembly in the same relation to the front sub-assembly so I can use the drive shaft.
> My plan is to use the automatic tranny without the torque converter (I hadn't thought of removing any gears).
> I was thinking of using a Netgain 9 " but that is a decision that can wait as there is an awful lot of work just to get the engine and transmission out.
> BTW the net result will likely be lighter than the existing vehicle. The engine/tranny has got to be 650+ there is 165 counter weight at the very back and some significant axle assembly that will be replaced.
> I'll be watching your build with interest



I thought about the NetGain 9” as well, but ultimately decided on the HPEVS AC-50. They just seem to be more readily available and more commonly used near me, so it gives me good, local resources for support as I go through this. 


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## remy_martian (Feb 4, 2019)

pikaroo said:


> I think your engine reliability data may be a bit outdated. They have been pretty damn reliable for the last 15 years or so. The days of “when, not if, the head gasket goes” are gone.
> 
> I do know it is not the prime candidate, and I know there are some heavy compromises that I need to make. But I have weighed the pros and cons for close to a year now, and decided the pros outweigh the cons _for me._
> 
> ...


Your "upgrade" is pretty much another full build. The "just swap in" seems more fantasy than reality. 

The tricks for faster charging are pretty much played out and anything beyond 8 hours to charge is unnecessary for all but condo and apartment dwellers who made the decision to buy a $150,000 car instead of a house, first. The reality is that most people can get by on 120VAC 12A charging because when you get home, you get out of the car, and plug it in.

But, to each his own...I, for one, would rather have two cars for the spend (or sell one to pay for the next) vs completely reworking the same one -- it's already enough of a money pit on the first go.


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## pikaroo (9 mo ago)

remy_martian said:


> Your "upgrade" is pretty much another full build. The "just swap in" seems more fantasy than reality.


Disagree, as long as the conversion is done with the mindset that it needs to be modular to begin with. Swapping batteries would likely be the biggest challenge, as each battery has it's own form factor and the box is built around that to maximize spacial efficiency, but still doable. A little foresight here will go a long way. And even if it is another "full build," still better than having to remove the ICE, all fueling components, exhaust, etc.



remy_martian said:


> The tricks for faster charging are pretty much played out and anything beyond 8 hours to charge is unnecessary for all but condo and apartment dwellers who made the decision to buy a $150,000 car instead of a house, first. The reality is that most people can get by on 120VAC 12A charging because when you get home, you get out of the car, and plug it in.


This is riddled with personal opinion presented as if it were factual. 

First of all, there are plenty of EV options WELL below the $150,000 mark with fast charging. The Leaf is what? Like $30k? A $30k car "instead of a house first" is perfectly reasonable in many situations. A Tesla Model Y, the best selling EV in America, is less than $65k, less than half of what you are presuming "condo and apartment dwellers" are spending on an EV.

Second, it seems as though you are refuting an argument I did not make. I never said fast charging was a necessity. I said that I _think_ charging will get faster and faster over the next decade, and that tech will hopefully trickle down to the 3rd parties and DIYers out here. Plugging in and charging overnight certainly works for me and my use case. But it sure would be cool to be able to take a DIY EV converted vehicle on a road trip. 



remy_martian said:


> But, to each his own...I, for one, would rather have two cars for the spend (or sell one to pay for the next) vs completely reworking the same one -- it's already enough of a money pit on the first go.


I do have another vehicle. But that is not the point of this for me. That may be for you, and that is great... for _you._ For _me,_ the guy doing this conversion, the project itself is 80% of the fun. So if I _get to_ do it again in a few years when newer, better stuff is on the market, I will consider myself lucky.


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## remy_martian (Feb 4, 2019)

Ah yes...a modular conversion. 🤦‍♂️ Why didn't anyone think of that? So much time cutting and shoehorning a battery module from manufacturer xyz in DIY vs just making it modular so anything can get thrown in.

Fast charging is at 150kW and up. Don't recall a Leaf doing that. The Bolt EV does a third of it.

Fast charging costs money. Over the next decade, manufacturers will move down the food chain. You know...no air conditioning, no self driving, roll the windows up yourself cheap. Fast charging takes a lot of resources that are far from being cheap. That is not going to change, nor is physics. So no fast charging unless you spend a wad of cash...ever. Physics vs phantasy.


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## Electric Land Cruiser (Dec 30, 2020)

No need to get defensive or argue at all. Just build your car and the haters can hate.


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## remy_martian (Feb 4, 2019)

Haters?


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## pikaroo (9 mo ago)

remy_martian said:


> Ah yes...a modular conversion. 🤦‍♂️ Why didn't anyone think of that? So much time cutting and shoehorning a battery module from manufacturer xyz in DIY vs just making it modular so anything can get thrown in.
> 
> Fast charging is at 150kW and up. Don't recall a Leaf doing that. The Bolt EV does a third of it.
> 
> Fast charging costs money. Over the next decade, manufacturers will move down the food chain. You know...no air conditioning, no self driving, roll the windows up yourself cheap. Fast charging takes a lot of resources that are far from being cheap. That is not going to change, nor is physics. So no fast charging unless you spend a wad of cash...ever. Physics vs phantasy.


Two Questions.
1). Do you actually read the post in it's entirety before responding?
2). Have you really even looked at anything in the past, say... 10 years?

To address the first point, I _literally_ said batteries would be difficult to swap. That is literally in my post. See below:


pikaroo said:


> Swapping batteries would likely be the biggest challenge, as each battery has it's own form factor and the box is built around that to maximize spacial efficiency


To be absolutely, irrefutably clear, I do NOT think swapping batteries would be like swapping Lego's. What I do think, however, is that changing from one battery pack to another in a few years is certainly easier than doing another full conversion, especially if there is forethought put into it regarding connectors and positioning of said connectors. We good now? Are we clear? 

The second point is in regards to the Leaf. It does have, and has had, DC Quick Charging. It can charge 80% of battery capacity in 30 min using a publicly available Level 3 DC Fast Charger for the older, smaller battery packs. For their newer packs, the 40kWh pack charges 80% in 40min, and the 62kWh pack can charge 80% in just 45 min. I also have no clue where you are getting your "150kw and up" figure from, as I have never seen that before. Tesla Superchargers started at like 120kw. Everything I have seen touts "Fast Charging" at 50kw+, not 150+. 

And while physics may not change, our understanding of physics and how we can use different approaches to the same thing can prove advantageous in different areas. Lithium Ion batteries weren't invented until like 1985, but William Morrison's EV was created a century before that. And your point on the cost not going down is woefully unsupported, considering the cost of batteries has decreased over 97% since 1991. There are similar stories in all things technology. Computers, televisions, cell phones, the list goes on. 

I do not want to continue this back and forth with you. You and I can disagree about things, that is fine. However, condescending comments such as this one


remy_martian said:


> Ah yes...a modular conversion. 🤦‍♂️ Why didn't anyone think of that?


will be responded to in kind. I am sure you are knowledgeable and have a lot of value to add to conversations. Perhaps we let this conversation die, and move forward.


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## evric (Oct 26, 2008)

pikaroo said:


> I do know I don’t need the clutch, but I love driving manuals and haven’t had one in about 7 years.


Definitely put the clutch in... 
AC motors have regen braking, and without a clutch it is difficult to change gears. If you don't use a clutch, you have to turn the regen off as you change gears. I have just changed from a DC motor.to a (Hyper 9) AC motor and had to place a switch on the gear knob to press as I change gears, because I have no clutch.


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## seatosummit (Dec 17, 2020)

pikaroo said:


> Hey Everyone,
> 
> I want to introduce my conversion project. It is my 2014 Subaru Crosstrek, I have had it since 2015 and have put about 250,000 miles on it. It has been extremely reliable, only really having issues that were caused by me. However, she has had a hard life, and is starting to burn a lot of oil, and I know it is only a matter of time.
> 
> ...


I for one am very excited to watch this build come together.

Everyone is welcome to take whatever approach to building their project they like. There is a lot of information on this forum and other resources online through which you can educate yourself on the fundamentals, but, given the unique, late-model ICE you are starting with there will be a lot of custom engineering. Sounds like you are ready for that though.

Is retaining the clutch and swapping in a 5 speed the most efficient path to getting you on the road? No, but who the hell cares; you can row through the gears and put a smile on your face. I do so every day in my 914 and can confirm it is a blast 

Please keep us updated and best of luck with your project!


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## DMPstar (Mar 2, 2016)

evric said:


> Definitely put the clutch in...
> AC motors have regen braking, and without a clutch it is difficult to change gears. If you don't use a clutch, you have to turn the regen off as you change gears. I have just changed from a DC motor.to a (Hyper 9) AC motor and had to place a switch on the gear knob to press as I change gears, because I have no clutch.


I wanted a picture of the 80's Subaru XT 4WD button, but only found that


pikaroo, I agree. Many of us try to have some reasonable educational fun around here, even Remy at times


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## remy_martian (Feb 4, 2019)

Need an Arduino with an MP3 file to play a "pew pew pew" sound on the radio via fm transmitter when that regen switch gets pulled.

Switching off regen during shifts is much better than clutch & flywheel (ick...no compression braking with a gonned ICE, so you now work against flywheel inertia to shift), imo.


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## DMPstar (Mar 2, 2016)

remy_martian said:


> Switching off regen during shifts is much better than clutch & flywheel (ick...no compression braking with a gonned ICE, so you now work against flywheel inertia to shift), imo.


In the Curtises I have worked with you can tune motor deceleration speeds and stuff enough that you may be able to get close to the same feel. Still, the shifter buttons could be mapped to do some cool things.


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## GrayRaceCat (Jul 13, 2021)

pikaroo said:


> Felt the snorkel would be a bit out of place without an ICE.


You could repurpose the snorkel as a fresh air inlet for Battery, Inverter, Motor cooling, or the AC/Heater unit.


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## GrayRaceCat (Jul 13, 2021)

pikaroo said:


> That is a cool bit of tech, but a large driving force behind this is having the manual trans.


I get it, the manual gives you Highway, Mudding, & Crawling gear options.


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## pikaroo (9 mo ago)

seatosummit said:


> I for one am very excited to watch this build come together.
> 
> Everyone is welcome to take whatever approach to building their project they like. There is a lot of information on this forum and other resources online through which you can educate yourself on the fundamentals, but, given the unique, late-model ICE you are starting with there will be a lot of custom engineering. Sounds like you are ready for that though.
> 
> ...


Thanks! I will definitely keep this thread up to date as things happen, but it will be a long term project. I have the manual trans already, just need to pick it up from a friend's house in NorCal. Still piecing together the rest of the trans swap bits; pedal assembly, shifter assembly, etc. 
Motor will be next month, then I really need to decide on batteries...


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## pikaroo (9 mo ago)

remy_martian said:


> Need an Arduino with an MP3 file to play a "pew pew pew" sound on the radio via fm transmitter when that regen switch gets pulled.


I have thought long and hard about sound effects with this swap... There are a few that I kind of want to do. Mainly, a loud "PikaaaCHUUUUUUUU!" when I really hammer the "go" pedal.  I am still a child at heart.



remy_martian said:


> Switching off regen during shifts is much better than clutch & flywheel (ick...no compression braking with a gonned ICE, so you now work against flywheel inertia to shift), imo.


Let me give you a brief story on how this whole project came about. I had been planning to manual swap my Crosstrek until this year, when CA introduced new Smog restrictions that prohibit any tinkering with the vehicle's ECU. In order to manual swap, I have to reprogram the ECU, meaning my car would no longer be road legal. However, that all goes out the window if you EV swap the vehicle. For once, _something_ is simple in CA. To legally EV swap, all you have to do is drive in to the referee under electric power (not trailered in, driven in) and he/she verifies that the ICE and all fuel equipment are removed, and I drive home. From then on, no smog test required on the vehicle, ever. Obviously, swapping back to ICE after and getting caught is a huge no-no and they can impound and crush your car, but that is beside the point. This led me down the path of "Maybe I just Tesla swap it. If I can't have a manual, I might as well have a shit ton of torque." It was during this research that I found out that manuals + electric motor is not only possible, but _common_ in DIY EV swaps. And now we are here. I want the clutch because I simply find it more fun.


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## GrayRaceCat (Jul 13, 2021)

remy_martian said:


> Your "upgrade" is pretty much another full build. The "just swap in" seems more fantasy than reality.
> But, to each his own...I, for one, would rather have two cars for the spend (or sell one to pay for the next) vs completely reworking the same one -- it's already enough of a money pit on the first go.


It's a platform he knows & really likes, is in good condition, suits the purpose, and is paid for. With 250K miles, it has minimal resale value, so replacing it doesn't make sense. Looks to me that the project is exactly what this forum is all about, electrifying our favorite vehicles.


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## GrayRaceCat (Jul 13, 2021)

remy_martian said:


> An automatic will not hold its clutches without running the front pump that's driven by a running ICE and the torque converter. How you planning to pressurize the tranny?


Possibly a torque converter lockup kit or a torque converter bypass kit. A good performance transmission shop should be able to do it.


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## GrayRaceCat (Jul 13, 2021)

pikaroo said:


> I have thought long and hard about sound effects with this swap... There are a few that I kind of want to do. Mainly, a loud "PikaaaCHUUUUUUUU!" when I really hammer the "go" pedal.  I am still a child at heart.
> 
> 
> Let me give you a brief story on how this whole project came about. I had been planning to manual swap my Crosstrek until this year, when CA introduced new Smog restrictions that prohibit any tinkering with the vehicle's ECU. In order to manual swap, I have to reprogram the ECU, meaning my car would no longer be road legal. However, that all goes out the window if you EV swap the vehicle. For once, _something_ is simple in CA. To legally EV swap, all you have to do is drive in to the referee under electric power (not trailered in, driven in) and he/she verifies that the ICE and all fuel equipment are removed, and I drive home. From then on, no smog test required on the vehicle, ever. Obviously, swapping back to ICE after and getting caught is a huge no-no and they can impound and crush your car, but that is beside the point. This led me down the path of "Maybe I just Tesla swap it. If I can't have a manual, I might as well have a shit ton of torque." It was during this research that I found out that manuals + electric motor is not only possible, but _common_ in DIY EV swaps. And now we are here. I want the clutch because I simply find it more fun.


You've piqued my interest! I _really_ don't want to rain on your parade, and I don't want to spook you. But I do have a few questions. (Better to ask now than later.)
I imagine you've already looked into alternatives for the engine-driven accessories, Power Brake Assist, & AC/Heater. (The Power-Steering Rack is electric, sorted!)
But, have you given any thought to what you will do with the ECM & TCM? (Engine Control Module & Transmission Control Module) Because it is a CAN-BUS vehicle, if you remove the ECM & TCM, you lose things like the Antitheft/Alarm System and Remote Keyless Entry (both usually reside in the ECM). If you leave the ECM & TCM in (the most straightforward route) without input from sensors on the Engine and Transmission, many systems will misbehave or not function. The ECM, TCM, ABS, Traction Control, SRS (AIrbags), Cruise Control, Electric Power Steering, & Speedometer/Odometer all rely on shared signals such as Vehicle Speed, Eng RPM, Trans RPM, etc. Don't despair! These signals can be generated or simulated with an aftermarket CAN-BUS Controller, windows laptop, software, and some work. It's all been done before, and you can do it too. One upside is it's easier to add the "PikaaaCHUUUUUUUU!" sound effect with CAN-BUS!
Start by checking YouTube or EVTV.ME for "Tescalade," the Jack Rickard Cadillac Escalade EV Conversion, and SuperfastMatt & his 1950 Jaguar Mark V "Tesla Powered Jag" on YouTube.


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## Electric Land Cruiser (Dec 30, 2020)

Man, if I had a nickel every time I read some kid on an internet forum post about manual-swapping his ride in order to "row gears," I'd be driving a Rivian right now... You know you can just sell it and buy a manual Crosstrek, probably even in the same color  If you want to build an EV Crosstrek just to do it, then that's good enough. If you really only want a manual then I'd strongly advise you to not destroy a functional vehicle.

In all seriousness, that's why my first comment was about maybe picking up another, older Subaru for the conversion. You could get a nice Forester or something with a bad engine for peanuts. The Crosstrek being on the smaller end of Subarus I'm curious where you would mount the batteries. That's always been the puzzle for me since the AWD transmission and driveshaft is going to leave you no choice but to put the motor under the hood. 30kwh of batteries was much larger than I anticipated when I built my EV, it would be a challenge to fit that into a Subaru without encroaching on the cargo or passenger space. And 30kwh in a Subie is only going to net 80 miles' range I'm betting.


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## remy_martian (Feb 4, 2019)

GrayRaceCat said:


> Possibly a torque converter lockup kit or a torque converter bypass kit. A good performance transmission shop should be able to do it.


That's not going to work, no matter what rockstars you hire at a tranny shop. 

The pump has to turn when the vehicle is stopped. Use the torque converter lockup as a launch clutch and it'll burn out after the second stoplight.


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## pikaroo (9 mo ago)

Electric Land Cruiser said:


> Man, if I had a nickel every time I read some kid on an internet forum post about manual-swapping his ride in order to "row gears," I'd be driving a Rivian right now... You know you can just sell it and buy a manual Crosstrek, probably even in the same color  If you want to build an EV Crosstrek just to do it, then that's good enough. If you really only want a manual then I'd strongly advise you to not destroy a functional vehicle.
> 
> In all seriousness, that's why my first comment was about maybe picking up another, older Subaru for the conversion. You could get a nice Forester or something with a bad engine for peanuts. The Crosstrek being on the smaller end of Subarus I'm curious where you would mount the batteries. That's always been the puzzle for me since the AWD transmission and driveshaft is going to leave you no choice but to put the motor under the hood. 30kwh of batteries was much larger than I anticipated when I built my EV, it would be a challenge to fit that into a Subaru without encroaching on the cargo or passenger space. And 30kwh in a Subie is only going to net 80 miles' range I'm betting.


Well shit. You caught me. I was really only doing it for the internet fame. 

First off, Subaru’s are the easiest modern vehicles to manual swap, and one of the easiest vehicles ever. Like you alluded to, they are legos. The body/chassis is already provisioned for a manual. It is more difficult to swap the interior trim pieces than the trans itself. I’ve done the swap on a 2013 Forester. And helped a buddy swap in a dual range trans, which they don’t even offer anywhere in the world mated to the FB20 engine. And it bolted right in. 

You are correct though, it would be easier to just sell it and buy a factory manual. But that car wouldn’t have driven my wife home the night we got married. It wouldn’t have heard the deep conversations as we drove for miles through the night on an impromptu trip. It wouldn’t have the same memories attached to it of sleeping in the back of it while it’s snowing, or teaching my nephew how to drive off road. It simply would not be the same. And yes, I’m aware that is an emotional decision to a financial problem. I literally do not care. 

The story I told remy was simply the journey from there to here. When I first decided to convert it to EV, I didn’t even realize a manual trans was possible with an EV. So no, I’m not EV swapping _just_ to have a manual. But _since_ I’m EV swapping, I might as well. And if I am being completely honest, short of a Tesla drivetrain and/or very expensive components, I don’t know that I even _could_ keep the current CVT. 

And while the vehicle is functional right now, she is burning quite a bit more oil than I am comfortable with. Her days are numbered with this power train, so _how much longer_ she will be functional is another question all together. 

For batteries, I already have the rear floor lifted to fit a dual battery setup, so there is quite a bit of space there, from my measurement, four Tesla modules can easily fit with the electronics sitting in the spare tire well, 6 modules if I want to lift the floor another inch or two. I can fit four modules where the gas tank lives now. And there is space for some in the engine bay, how many depends on just how cramped I want it to be. Four would be the easy bet, six if I am willing to get creative. I’m not planning on using Tesla modules, just using them as a size comparison. Right now I’m honestly thinking a 40kwh pack from a newer Leaf from a wrecked car. But I still cannot decide for sure. I am 100% open to battery suggestions. 


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## Electric Land Cruiser (Dec 30, 2020)

pikaroo said:


> Well shit. You caught me. I was really only doing it for the internet fame.
> 
> First off, Subaru’s are the easiest modern vehicles to manual swap, and one of the easiest vehicles ever. Like you alluded to, they are legos. The body/chassis is already provisioned for a manual. It is more difficult to swap the interior trim pieces than the trans itself. I’ve done the swap on a 2013 Forester. And helped a buddy swap in a dual range trans, which they don’t even offer anywhere in the world mated to the FB20 engine. And it bolted right in.
> 
> ...


Two things, firstly it's internet infamy. 99% of the people who create a post on internet forums about manual swaps never follow through. Just like 99% of the people who have EV conversion ideas on this forum never follow through. I see a lot of similarities. Maybe you will prove me wrong.

As far as auto vs CVT vs manual, in my EV conversion I have no transmission at all. More space for batteries that way. 

You aren't actually 100% open to suggestions, you react strongly and write several paragraph rebuttals to suggestions. I didn't see your automotive history or fab skills listed in your OP as recommended by the sticky in this section either so it's hard to know if swapping your buddys transmission is the toughest job you've done or not, can you weld, etc.


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

evric said:


> Definitely put the clutch in...
> AC motors have regen braking, and without a clutch it is difficult to change gears. If you don't use a clutch, you have to turn the regen off as you change gears...


True, and even if you ensure zero motor torque during shifting (no power or regen) the motor is a massive flywheel on good bearings so if it attached to the input shaft (because there's no clutch) it takes a lot of torque to change input shaft speed and thus a lot of synchronizer wear. A slight regen drag for upshifts and slight driving torque for downshifts - plus good shift timing - would be better, but ideal would be active motor control logic to synchronize shifts... and the usual DIY workaround is to just use a clutch.


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

pikaroo said:


> First off, Subaru’s are the easiest modern vehicles to manual swap, and one of the easiest vehicles ever. Like you alluded to, they are legos. The body/chassis is already provisioned for a manual. It is more difficult to swap the interior trim pieces than the trans itself. I’ve done the swap on a 2013 Forester...


I don't doubt that an auto-to-manual swap is practical or that you can do it, but the Subaru is fundamentally no different in this respect from typical vehicles which are available in both automatic and manual. I haven't done it (because I buy cars with the right transmission ), but the same factors lead to similar provisions in other brands. Ease or difficulty of swapping between automatic and manual transmissions is typically not the main factor in choosing between use of the original transmission or a complete EV drive unit in EV conversions... and apparently it's not the major factor in this case.


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## piotrsko (Dec 9, 2007)

Based on actually doing such a swap both ways many times, I would suggest that you REALLY need a whole complete car in the proper configuration as spare parts, or access to one in a scrap yard which is more expensive than a rolling junker. Ask me how I know. Then there comes the question of why not just convert the junker? Many reasons there from totally rotted body to butt ugly color.

I used to live in Cali, know the DMV drill. Try doing a swap in Bakersfield or Palmdale sometime if you need a lesson in patience.

I suspect brian has never speed shifted a Pete with 48,000 on and going uphill on the grapevine.


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

piotrsko said:


> I suspect brian has never speed shifted a Pete with 48,000 on and going uphill on the grapevine.


I indeed have not. I do understand that there are many non-synchronized transmissions, and many transmissions in which the synchros will not survive without competent operation... and that most drivers are not very competent so precisely timing shifts to make a poor transmission design work is an unreasonable expectation.


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## mycj7 (10 mo ago)

Not sure if you have seen this before but EV West has an electric conversion (minus batteries) for the Factory 5 818, which is built with Subaru parts (2002-2007 Subaru Impreza/WRX sedan or wagon). I do not know if it would be interchangeable with the Crosstreks 2.0L and 2.5L engine bolt patterns though. I have a new Crosstrek and am considering turning it EV at some point in the future if the engine has problems or Gas gets too expensive.


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## pikaroo (9 mo ago)

Electric Land Cruiser said:


> Two things, firstly it's internet infamy. 99% of the people who create a post on internet forums about manual swaps never follow through. Just like 99% of the people who have EV conversion ideas on this forum never follow through. I see a lot of similarities. Maybe you will prove me wrong.
> 
> As far as auto vs CVT vs manual, in my EV conversion I have no transmission at all. More space for batteries that way.
> 
> You aren't actually 100% open to suggestions, you react strongly and write several paragraph rebuttals to suggestions. I didn't see your automotive history or fab skills listed in your OP as recommended by the sticky in this section either so it's hard to know if swapping your buddys transmission is the toughest job you've done or not, can you weld, etc.


I understand that the number of people that follow through with difficult and/or involved swaps is low. However, likening me to just some 'kid' that can't/won't actually complete the swap isn't exactly a warm welcome to the forum. Since I _am_ serious about this, and possess the skills and means to do it, I have no issue firing back at the condescending remarks made at my expense. My apologies if I did not roll over like you thought I would.

As far as not being open to suggestions, let's first touch on the fact that being "open" to suggestions does not mean I am obligated to follow them. I am simply trying to open a dialogue. Let's _talk_ about batteries. What have you had experience with? What made you decide to go down the road you went down? What horror stories have you hear about Brand A? Second, what suggestions have you given? While you started strong is mentioning you are interested to see how it goes, that same post suggested I simply start with a different vehicle, which you doubled down on in a later post. Again, apologies if I did not drop my entire plan in favor of your idea to just buy a different vehicle to convert. 

As for the experience, I did not go into depth in my original post, that is true. I did mention that I was an ASE Certified Technician, and assumed that would be enough, but if you need more, here you are. 
I hold multiple active ASE certifications, each requiring me to pass an exam after performing related work duties on a full time basis for a minimum of 2 years. I hold the A1, A4, A5, and A8 certification. I also spent several years working for a consultancy for several high performance aftermarket manufacturers, including rotating electric, braking systems, high performance clutches, lubrication, off road recovery, and aftermarket fuel injection. I have built motors, swapped transmissions, installed locking differentials, dual battery systems (with solar), and many other things. I do admittedly suck at welding, but have a good friend that fabricates professionally, so I am covered there as well. I changed careers into cybersecurity about a year ago, and am currently working towards specializing in automotive penetration testing. Just picked up a good book about hacking into the CANbus network to read/interject messages and control CAN devices.

As I have said before, it is not my desire to get into a pissing match, it really isn't. I simply do not appreciate condescending remarks being made, and do not feel I have to simply take it and say thank you. However, I am willing to move on, forgive and forget if you are. We can have an open. fruitful conversation about incredible EV conversions - like yours. I have been reading through your thread and I am thoroughly enjoying it. I love the 80 series, and that is actually what my snorkel originally came from.


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## pikaroo (9 mo ago)

GrayRaceCat said:


> You've piqued my interest! I _really_ don't want to rain on your parade, and I don't want to spook you. But I do have a few questions. (Better to ask now than later.)
> I imagine you've already looked into alternatives for the engine-driven accessories, Power Brake Assist, & AC/Heater. (The Power-Steering Rack is electric, sorted!)
> But, have you given any thought to what you will do with the ECM & TCM? (Engine Control Module & Transmission Control Module) Because it is a CAN-BUS vehicle, if you remove the ECM & TCM, you lose things like the Antitheft/Alarm System and Remote Keyless Entry (both usually reside in the ECM). If you leave the ECM & TCM in (the most straightforward route) without input from sensors on the Engine and Transmission, many systems will misbehave or not function. The ECM, TCM, ABS, Traction Control, SRS (AIrbags), Cruise Control, Electric Power Steering, & Speedometer/Odometer all rely on shared signals such as Vehicle Speed, Eng RPM, Trans RPM, etc. Don't despair! These signals can be generated or simulated with an aftermarket CAN-BUS Controller, windows laptop, software, and some work. It's all been done before, and you can do it too. One upside is it's easier to add the "PikaaaCHUUUUUUUU!" sound effect with CAN-BUS!
> Start by checking YouTube or EVTV.ME for "Tescalade," the Jack Rickard Cadillac Escalade EV Conversion, and SuperfastMatt & his 1950 Jaguar Mark V "Tesla Powered Jag" on YouTube.


No no, I appreciate the questions. Most of it is certainly stuff that I have thought about, but there are a few things that I likely need to look a little deeper into - such as SRS. 

For the engine accessories, I was planning on getting the dual shaft motor to have that option, but I am not sure I will need it. Power steering is electric, brakes I was just going to run on a Leed Brakes Bandit vacuum pump, heater I was going to go electric, alternator is obviously handled by dc-dc, and that just leaves AC. Since I live in SoCal, it isn't _super_ important to get going right away. Was planning on doing some research into whether it would be better to get an EV specific kit or try to run it off the motor with a drive belt... This did make me think of the blend door though. Thankfully, I double checked and it is a manual blend door attached to a cable, so no trickery needed there. 

The keyless system is handled by the BCM, which from my research can function independent of the ECM/TCM. If it does not work correctly, I will install aftermarket options for keyless entry. There are several readily available, as not every Crosstrek was equipped with it from the factory. 

The CANbus system is something I am currently researching for both this project and my career. I am in cybersecurity, and want to pivot into automotive penetration testing after my current contract is up. There is a lot I can do and solve if I can integrate into the CANbus network, but if not, thankfully it is a relatively simple vehicle, so I could rip it all out and use aftermarket everything if needed.


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## pikaroo (9 mo ago)

mycj7 said:


> Not sure if you have seen this before but EV West has an electric conversion (minus batteries) for the Factory 5 818, which is built with Subaru parts (2002-2007 Subaru Impreza/WRX sedan or wagon). I do not know if it would be interchangeable with the Crosstreks 2.0L and 2.5L engine bolt patterns though. I have a new Crosstrek and am considering turning it EV at some point in the future if the engine has problems or Gas gets too expensive.


I had not seen this. I knew the 818 used a Subaru engine, but I assumed since it was mid-engine that it used a VW gearbox with an adapter plate. After seeing your post, and doing a little searching, I see that it does use the WRX transmission and blocks off the rear output shaft... If nothing else, that adapter plate could save me a ton of time R&D'ing my own. Their site lists it as being for VW applications, I am going to see if I can run down there with my trans and see if it bolts up. If it does, that will be a total score!


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## mycj7 (10 mo ago)

Nice that you can go over and check that out. I live in Atlantic Canada, no such luck around here. lol I am in the initial stages of EV conversion research myself (as I am a Red Seal Licensed Auto Tech- same as ASE in the states). Just bought a '21 Crosstrek but had seriously considered an Elantra Hybrid and a Corolla hybrid as gas prices are getting ridiculous up here. Gas around here is the equivalent to $7/ us gal, and constantly going up. Soooo much tax on our gas, plus yearly increases in Carbon tax (thanks to our Liberal government), pretty soon people won't be able to buy gas, But electric cars are still way too expensive (cheapest is probably a Bolt which costs in excess of $40,000 with a range of 400km max- 248 miles. Not to mention the 25% decrease in mileage in the winter). Leaves a conversion as a realistic option. I think within the next 10 years conversions are going to be a big thing and a lot of companies will start to offer bolt on kits. 
Good luck with you research!
I will keep following this thread to help further mine! lol


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## pikaroo (9 mo ago)

mycj7 said:


> Nice that you can go over and check that out. I live in Atlantic Canada, no such luck around here. lol I am in the initial stages of EV conversion research myself (as I am a Red Seal Licensed Auto Tech- same as ASE in the states). Just bought a '21 Crosstrek but had seriously considered an Elantra Hybrid and a Corolla hybrid as gas prices are getting ridiculous up here. Gas around here is the equivalent to $7/ us gal, and constantly going up. Soooo much tax on our gas, plus yearly increases in Carbon tax (thanks to our Liberal government), pretty soon people won't be able to buy gas, But electric cars are still way too expensive (cheapest is probably a Bolt which costs in excess of $40,000 with a range of 400km max- 248 miles. Not to mention the 25% decrease in mileage in the winter). Leaves a conversion as a realistic option. I think within the next 10 years conversions are going to be a big thing and a lot of companies will start to offer bolt on kits.
> Good luck with you research!
> I will keep following this thread to help further mine! lol


Any reason you didn't go with the Crosstrek Hybrid? I seriously considered that when I bought mine, but I bought used and the closes hybrid was about 300 miles away, and I wasn't _that_ serious about it, haha.


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## mycj7 (10 mo ago)

Availability and cost. It was last July when I bought it new, there were no hybrids available, in fact my Crosstrek came from another dealer 1500 km away!


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## pikaroo (9 mo ago)

That makes sense, but that distance makes me sad, lol. But if it helps, my Crosstrek has been incredibly reliable, and got great gas mileage until I started doing dumb things to it, like mud terrains, bumper, snorkel, roof rack, etc. I was easily hitting 31mpg combined without altering any driving habits, and 34-35 if I was trying.


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## mycj7 (10 mo ago)

I love it so far. Get between 30 and 37 mpg. I drive a lot of highway and needed an awd/4wd for work purposes (sold my 4wd Ram winter vehicle and my Golf TDI mileage machine). Only thing I plan to add is a winch bumper and a lift once the warranty is gone (for the ground clearance in the winter). The Subi is a tank in the snow, very impressed that you get that kind of tractiona nd good mileage!


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## pikaroo (9 mo ago)

mycj7 said:


> I love it so far. Get between 30 and 37 mpg. I drive a lot of highway and needed an awd/4wd for work purposes (sold my 4wd Ram winter vehicle and my Golf TDI mileage machine). Only thing I plan to add is a winch bumper and a lift once the warranty is gone (for the ground clearance in the winter). The Subi is a tank in the snow, very impressed that you get that kind of tractiona nd good mileage!


My suggestion on lift is to go with 1” list springs and that’s it. The 2” kits will have you going through axles way faster, which can grow to be quite the nuisance. Beyond that, a good set of tires will take you further than any bother modification could, hands down. If you go off pavement frequently, the Primitive Racing skid plates are a worthwhile investment. I think LPAventure makes some good ones too, and are a lot closer to you, I believe. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


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## remy_martian (Feb 4, 2019)

Tire size?


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## pikaroo (9 mo ago)

remy_martian said:


> Tire size?


Currently 29” (235/75R15) MT’s. But I’ll likely go less aggressive when these wear thin. These are over 2” larger than stock. There is a nice middle ground to be found.


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## remy_martian (Feb 4, 2019)

How badly do they rub and did you have to cut bodywork?

Does anybody make deeper ratio diff gears for these things to support the larger tire sizes?


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## pikaroo (9 mo ago)

No rubbing anymore, torch and a hammer took care of that, haha. These vehicles have a small piece of plastic (that does absolutely nothing) that causes a little rub with even 27.5” tires. Trimming that lets you go up to almost 29” before encountering any more fun, if memory serves. 

No aftermarket gearing is available, unfortunately. The manual equipped models have a little better gearing for larger tires, but suffer in MPG due to that. There are models, particularly overseas, with as deep as 4.444, but none that are compatible with the CVT model. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


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## pikaroo (9 mo ago)

Small update. I got the physical OBD interface needed to sniff the CAN-BUS. Luckily, I live in Linux anyways, so I get to leverage SocketCAN and CAN-Utils with ease. My goal for the next couple weeks is to map the ID's to what function they perform. Having the cheat sheet will make it much more viable to keep creature comforts like keyless entry, ABS, auto dimming interior lights, and airbags so I don't die.

Additionally, I must admit I found myself derailed for about a week. During this time, I contemplated taking the conversion into a completely different direction: hub motors. In the end, I came to my senses. The reality is using four individual hub motors would make the build exponentially more complex which would make it take even longer than it already will, and add unnecessary cost when considering real world needs and not just desires. Attempting a build of that magnitude, completely DIY, as my first conversion is quite frankly, ignorant. But the idea of four independent motors is still really cool. The possibilities and options that would open up could be loads of fun. Need traction to crawl while off road? Beep bop boop, all four wheels are now going to turn as if they are locked together. Want a drift mode? Beepity Boppity Boop, now the front motors are free spinning and the rear two are locked together. Applying more torque to the outer wheels based on steering angle... God, technology is cool. Anyways, pipe dreams aside, I am still excited to convert my car to Pikachu power. 

I still need to get up to my buddies place in NorCal to pick up the transmission. I also need to pick up a rear differential as well, since the final drive is different for the 5MT and CVT models. 

I also can not decide on batteries to save my life. My wallet tells me Leaf modules. But I just don't think I would be satisfied with the range unless I went with the latest generation, but then it isn't as cost effective of an option. My range anxiety tells me Tesla modules, but the cost just makes me sick. I have heard a few people talking about Bolt modules, but I can never seem to find them for sale reliably to gauge the cost per kwh value in my area. 

Lastly, I finally got a trace of the bell housing for the transmission, so I am going to start importing that into Fusion360 and start working out the adapter. I found a YouTube video by tomswonderfulworld on a Civic EV Conversion he was working on several years back, and I really like how he was adapting the motor to the transmission while keeping the clutch functional. I am going to attempt to mimic that on my own, but if needed, I can employ one friend of mine that does industrial CAD design for a living, and another (aforementioned) that does CNC work as part of his chassis bracing fabrication business.


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## rcnesneg (Nov 23, 2021)

pikaroo said:


> Small update. I got the physical OBD interface needed to sniff the CAN-BUS. Luckily, I live in Linux anyways, so I get to leverage SocketCAN and CAN-Utils with ease. My goal for the next couple weeks is to map the ID's to what function they perform. Having the cheat sheet will make it much more viable to keep creature comforts like keyless entry, ABS, auto dimming interior lights, and airbags so I don't die.


Don't know if this helps but I successfully swapped a 2008 outback EZ30R from 5EAT to 6MT with an arduino to pretend to be the 5EAT. The car didn't know the difference and thought it was business as usual. Cruise control, VDC, and everything else worked normally. The crosstrek should be the same since most of the canbus IDs are consistent across multiple platforms.
The EZ30R MT Swappers facebook group and google drive may be helpful too with the canbus. Good luck!









Peter's H6 Manual Swap Outback


I've swapped my USDM 2008 Outback 3.0R LL Bean from a 5EAT to a 6 speed manual. I think I'm the first one fully working with US emissions and cruise control? Why? Because I want to. How? Swap in the drivetrain (Trans, rear diff, etc) from a 2007 JDM Legacy 3.0R Spec B. Remove the TCM and...




www.subaruoutback.org


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## blackterminal (Oct 14, 2021)

Interesting project


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## blackterminal (Oct 14, 2021)

pikaroo said:


> Small update. I got the physical OBD interface needed to sniff the CAN-BUS. Luckily, I live in Linux anyways, so I get to leverage SocketCAN and CAN-Utils with ease. My goal for the next couple weeks is to map the ID's to what function they perform. Having the cheat sheet will make it much more viable to keep creature comforts like keyless entry, ABS, auto dimming interior lights, and airbags so I don't die.
> 
> Additionally, I must admit I found myself derailed for about a week. During this time, I contemplated taking the conversion into a completely different direction: hub motors. In the end, I came to my senses. The reality is using four individual hub motors would make the build exponentially more complex which would make it take even longer than it already will, and add unnecessary cost when considering real world needs and not just desires. Attempting a build of that magnitude, completely DIY, as my first conversion is quite frankly, ignorant. But the idea of four independent motors is still really cool. The possibilities and options that would open up could be loads of fun. Need traction to crawl while off road? Beep bop boop, all four wheels are now going to turn as if they are locked together. Want a drift mode? Beepity Boppity Boop, now the front motors are free spinning and the rear two are locked together. Applying more torque to the outer wheels based on steering angle... God, technology is cool. Anyways, pipe dreams aside, I am still excited to convert my car to Pikachu power.
> 
> ...


Definitely keep the clutch. It allows for less than perfect alignment between gearbox and motor and will be less wearing on the gearbox that was never designed for instant massive torque. Its not about even using it its just having it there for these reasons. My own clutch pedal currently doesnt work (thats still a work in progress) but I like that the clutch disc is helping for these reasons.


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## blackterminal (Oct 14, 2021)

pikaroo said:


> Two Questions.
> 1). Do you actually read the post in it's entirety before responding?
> 2). Have you really even looked at anything in the past, say... 10 years?
> 
> ...


I agree with you in all points.


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## blackterminal (Oct 14, 2021)

pikaroo said:


> No no, I appreciate the questions. Most of it is certainly stuff that I have thought about, but there are a few things that I likely need to look a little deeper into - such as SRS.
> 
> For the engine accessories, I was planning on getting the dual shaft motor to have that option, but I am not sure I will need it. Power steering is electric, brakes I was just going to run on a Leed Brakes Bandit vacuum pump, heater I was going to go electric, alternator is obviously handled by dc-dc, and that just leaves AC. Since I live in SoCal, it isn't _super_ important to get going right away. Was planning on doing some research into whether it would be better to get an EV specific kit or try to run it off the motor with a drive belt... This did make me think of the blend door though. Thankfully, I double checked and it is a manual blend door attached to a cable, so no trickery needed there.
> 
> ...


Out of interest in a canbus car is it a must to tinker with it or can you ignore it and just let all the engine missing etc lights glow? I see a lot of people getting into can and have wondered if its a must or just a nice to do thing. Ie if you ignored it will the abs and airbags still function?


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## remy_martian (Feb 4, 2019)

blackterminal said:


> Definitely keep the clutch. It allows for less than perfect alignment between gearbox and motor and will be less wearing on the gearbox that was never designed for instant massive torque.


1. The alignment of the transmission input shaft is determined by the pilot bearing, not the clutch disk. You're in deep 💩 if you think you can align an input shaft using a clutch disk (ever install a clutch disk without a pilot alignment tool? Barrel of Monkeys fun getting the trans back on).

2. No idea what you mean by "less wearing on the gearbox". If anything, slipping a clutch on an electric motor will mutiply that fearsome torque to an even higher level, leaving a trail of steel bits you can follow on your walk home through the ghetto.

3. The main reasons to keep a clutch:
a) It makes it easier to couple (not align) the input shaft to a mounted flywheel. Some people only keep the clutch hub and ditch the rest of it including the flywheel - still need a pilot bearing.
b) It might aid in preserving the transmission's shift syncros if you shift like an animal or have no clue how to match RPM to the gear you're heading into (which means you have no business driving stick)
c) Some argue it's a safety disconnect. I like calmly reaching for the ignition switch for bad Toyota gas pedals and runaway motors.
d) A pointless retro driving experience (your motor will happily do everything with the trans stuck in 2nd or 3rd and no shift lever installed on the trans)
e) Because you like adding stuff to the drivetrain that breaks down, leaks fluid, needs adjustment, and smokes going up hills with it floored
f) You figure you'll be in a wheelchair, anyway, drooling all over yourself, in a few years, so why not have something in your car floor that'll take your feet/legs off after you forget (senility/Alzheimers -> wheelchair) that your Leaf motor will rev to ten grand 💀


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## blackterminal (Oct 14, 2021)

remy_martian said:


> 1. The alignment of the transmission input shaft is determined by the pilot bearing, not the clutch disk. You're in deep 💩 if you think you can align an input shaft using a clutch disk (ever install a clutch disk without a pilot alignment tool? Barrel of Monkeys fun getting the trans back on).
> 
> 2. No idea what you mean by "less wearing on the gearbox". If anything, slipping a clutch on an electric motor will mutiply that fearsome torque to an even higher level, leaving a trail of steel bits you can follow on your walk home through the ghetto.
> 
> ...


A typical reply from you Remy.


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## remy_martian (Feb 4, 2019)

Yup

Extremely witty (it was a joke, dude), knowledgeable, and inciteful[sic]


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## UglyCarFan (8 mo ago)

Bratitude said:


> Why not get a 2019+ crosstrek hybrid transmission, lock the input shaft and use mg1 and mg2 for drive? It’s essentially a gs450h gearbox but with Subarus awd system.
> I’m in Canada so these are harder to come by, but I’m planing on swaping my leaf motor in my BRAT with one of those gearboxes.
> View attachment 128845


Thanks a lot Bratitude...you just added another possibility to my list. And I was making progress for a day or so. Seriously, this is really interesting. I had no idea these were available. If you saw my recent post, I spent a couple hours yesterday with some Subbie guys, and it looks like the rear IRS will fit my 74 Javelin. I was shocked to discover most of the Subarus outweigh the Javelin. ANd now this interesting tid-bit.


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## remy_martian (Feb 4, 2019)

It seems a bit weak for a pony car application


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## dreamer (Feb 28, 2009)

pikaroo said:


> I had not seen this. I knew the 818 used a Subaru engine, but I assumed since it was mid-engine that it used a VW gearbox with an adapter plate. After seeing your post, and doing a little searching, I see that it does use the WRX transmission and blocks off the rear output shaft... If nothing else, that adapter plate could save me a ton of time R&D'ing my own. Their site lists it as being for VW applications, I am going to see if I can run down there with my trans and see if it bolts up. If it does, that will be a total score!


I really like the Crosstreks styling and think it's a great choice ! Looking forward to seeing how it turns out.

While these EVWest kits sound like they are saving a lot of research, when I look at what they actually provide it doesn't sound like much for the price. Besides which, the whole AC-50 motor basis seems underpowered to me. 300A and 96V give you a max 60kw/ 80hp, right ? I understand the torque curve is much better than for an ICE, but that is less power than a Prius or Leaf and your CrossTrek will likely be heavier than those two, so I wonder about accel at highway speed when the torque is gone. 

The used Tesla small drive unit goes for $1500 shipped on ebay. The OpenInverter replacement logic card to be able to run it with just an accelerator pedal is $300euro (~$500?) giving you a 250hp solution under 200lbs and under $2k. True, mating it to a clutch and MT when the output shaft of the built-in diff is going to be reduced to a max of 1700rpm might be a challenge, but think of the low end torque you'd have ! Is the final drive ratio of the Subaru MT you have planned enough that the highest gear would still allow highway speed if the input shaft is max 1700rpm ? I would think so, since overdrives typically leave the engine running under 2000rpm. Otherwise, there may be some gearing swaps possible for the Tesla diff. The other side of the Tesla diff could run pulley-driven accessories like AC and an alternator instead of DC-DC converter, maybe ? 
I am personally not averse to the idea of awd without a clutch or even a trans, so I would be tempted to just use two small drive units, one front and one rear, eliminating the space for the propeller shaft and allowing space to bolt up a full Tesla battery pack.

I know what you mean about battery choices, they are so pricey and using their form factor is limiting. Focusing on reusing modules, I think you will run into issues getting the combination of parallel vs. serial combinations for your pack that match the pack voltage and current ranges your motor needs. Building your own battery boxes leaves you more flexible for serial/parallel as well as size to fit wherever they can go. I like the idea of serial strings of 100 18650 cells (370v3.4ah/module) in a 3x3x30" module arranged 33/34/33, then parallel as many as needed for range. Each module would be 1.2kwh and cost about $250 to build if Chinese direct sellers of cells on DHGate can be believed/trusted. That is slightly more than ebay prices per kwh for Tesla 5.2kwh modules but I wouldn't have to unweld all the Tesla cells. With 3x3x30" modules, it seems like 12 in front of the motor and 12 on each side would fit 42kwh under the hood and not sacrifice any interior cabin space or spare tire well. Still $9k for batteries, though. You could buy a used complete 60kwh pack from a Model 3 for that amount if there were any way to bolt it up under your Crosstrek, but that pesky propeller shaft would be a problem.


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## remy_martian (Feb 4, 2019)

Your Chinesium eBike pack can't be charged very fast - it lacks a cooling system.


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## dreamer (Feb 28, 2009)

remy_martian said:


> Your Chinesium eBike pack can't be charged very fast - it lacks a cooling system.


Who said anything about an eBike pack ?


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## remy_martian (Feb 4, 2019)

You did:

"I like the idea of serial strings of 100 18650 cells (370v3.4ah/module) in a 3x3x30" module arranged 33/34/33, then parallel as many as needed for range. Each module would be 1.2kwh and cost about $250 to build..."


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

Bratitude said:


> Why not get a 2019+ crosstrek hybrid transmission, lock the input shaft and use mg1 and mg2 for drive? It’s essentially a gs450h gearbox but with Subarus awd system.
> I’m in Canada so these are harder to come by, but I’m planing on swaping my leaf motor in my BRAT with one of those gearboxes.
> View attachment 128845


This is a great piece of information, which I apparently saw long ago but had forgotten about until it was mentioned again.

It is a power-split hybrid transmission (like the Prius and most other Toyota/Lexus hybrids), and is longitudinally configured (like the units used in the Lexus GS and LS), but in a transaxle package (like the transverse units). The Subaru unit appears to have no range-shift transmission, so it is more like the L210 (from a Lexus IS 300h, RC 300h, or GS 300h), rather than the 2-speed L110 (from a Lexus GS 450h or LS 600h) or the 4-speed L310 (from the LC 500h or LS 500h). It also has the rear drive coupling clutch, which of course would be unnecessary if the two motors were simply connected to one axle each instead of combining their outputs just to split them again.

There's nothing Subaru-specific about the AWD system - it's just the simplest possible design, with permanent drive to one axle (the front in this case) and a clutch for drive to the other axle, as used by essentially every manufacturer.


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

dreamer said:


> Besides which, the whole AC-50 motor basis seems underpowered to me. 300A and 96V give you a max 60kw/ 80hp, right ?


No, 300 amps multiplied by 96 volts is only 28,000 watts (so 29 kW or 39 HP at perfect efficiency), and even then that's only at that single operating condition of maximum current and full battery voltage, with every speed higher or lower corresponding to less power.


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## dreamer (Feb 28, 2009)

remy_martian said:


> You did:
> 
> "I like the idea of serial strings of 100 18650 cells (370v3.4ah/module) in a 3x3x30" module arranged 33/34/33, then parallel as many as needed for range. Each module would be 1.2kwh and cost about $250 to build..."


Nowhere is there is the word "eBike" or buying any sort of "pack". I specifically said buy 100 bare cells and arrange in my own home built modules. The cells would cost $210 and the other $40 would go to building the boxes and the cooling for them. Where could you even find 370V eBike packs, anyway ?


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## remy_martian (Feb 4, 2019)

Voltage is irrelevant. You are proposing home building pack modules for a car like they are built for eBikes. No heating or cooling system. Nickel plates joining 18650 cells, all butted together in a HCP arrangement.

eBike style module builds do not scale very well into a car/truck. You have to be able to at least heat the pack for most of the country, and cool it if you want fast charging/discharging/regen. There's also zero thermal insulation between cells to prevent thermal runaway in a homebuilt eBike style pack.

Add all this in and your $250 module just got a lot more expensive.


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## UglyCarFan (8 mo ago)

remy_martian said:


> It seems a bit weak for a pony car application


Remy: That statement is a pivotal issue in my quest to define reasonable expectations. If money was the issue, as it is for many, that would steer me towards just doing my Element. If it was range expectations, the question might be which vehicle would be the least hacked up putting a decent size battery bank in. One thing I'm very clear about, is I want to use this vehicle for cruising if it is a "classic', (or) do a simplified daily beater.

The little bit I read about that Subbie box last night tells me I could cruise at a comfortable speed in the Javelin, 59 El Camino, or even a C3. However, I'm not likely to do a C3 with a marginal amount of power, because no one else would buy it for that purpose. I think people would scoff at it. Now, a unit like the new Eluminator would be crazy good in that vehicle. But I don't like C3s enough to spend the bucks to do one justice. I don't see how you could get by spending less than 30-40k doing that.

Your comment recently about starting with our Element has been percolating. I'm not experienced working on fwd components except for very limited component replacement. I've never attempted to have an axle modified, or anything like that. But I'm bidding on an Element later this week that happens to be the color of ours, and would also make a great builder that wouldn't take ours out of service. This new possibility with the Subbie transmission covers a lot of bases for an Element. The Element I'm bidding on is AWD.


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## UglyCarFan (8 mo ago)

dreamer said:


> I really like the Crosstreks styling and think it's a great choice ! Looking forward to seeing how it turns out.
> 
> While these EVWest kits sound like they are saving a lot of research, when I look at what they actually provide it doesn't sound like much for the price. Besides which, the whole AC-50 motor basis seems underpowered to me. 300A and 96V give you a max 60kw/ 80hp, right ? I understand the torque curve is much better than for an ICE, but that is less power than a Prius or Leaf and your CrossTrek will likely be heavier than those two, so I wonder about accel at highway speed when the torque is gone.
> 
> ...


dreamer: i understand your interest in the 18650s, but disagree with your conclusions. There are many modules available from a wide variety of vehicles or suppliers that can be fitted into a vehicle you choose. I happen to mainly buy 7, 8, 12, 14, 16 cell prismatic modules, with different ah ratings. Many of them can be modified if needed. I don't see how that is any more difficult to accomplish than buying what would amount to thousands of individual cells, with thousands of potential points of failure and then building a box to hold them. In the end, you still have to deal with their size and shape, and only so many things can be done with those form factors. Another reason I like prismatic cells is that they can be repurposed for energy storage/home backup when they no longer have sufficient remaining capacity for an EV application. It is much easier to work with the modules that often have bolted connections, than doing a bunch of soldering of BMS leads. When I first started buying batteries 3 years ago, I made that choice, and have never regretted it.


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## UglyCarFan (8 mo ago)

brian_ said:


> This is a great piece of information, which I apparently saw long ago but had forgotten about until it was mentioned again.
> 
> It is a power-split hybrid transmission (like the Prius and most other Toyota/Lexus hybrids), and is longitudinally configured (like the units used in the Lexus GS and LS), but in a transaxle package (like the transverse units). The Subaru unit appears to have no range-shift transmission, so it is more like the L210 (from a Lexus IS 300h, RC 300h, or GS 300h), rather than the 2-speed L110 (from a Lexus GS 450h or LS 600h) or the 4-speed L310 (from the LC 500h or LS 500h). It also has the rear drive coupling clutch, which of course would be unnecessary if the two motors were simply connected to one axle each instead of combining their outputs just to split them again.
> 
> There's nothing Subaru-specific about the AWD system - it's just the simplest possible design, with permanent drive to one axle (the front in this case) and a clutch for drive to the other axle, as used by essentially every manufacturer.


 I did a bit of searching last night, and they are pricey, and not many available. But they are out there, at roughly $1500-$2000 USD.


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## dreamer (Feb 28, 2009)

UglyCarFan said:


> dreamer: i understand your interest in the 18650s, but disagree with your conclusions. There are many modules available from a wide variety of vehicles or suppliers that can be fitted into a vehicle you choose. I happen to mainly buy 7, 8, 12, 14, 16 cell prismatic modules, with different ah ratings. Many of them can be modified if needed. I don't see how that is any more difficult to accomplish than buying what would amount to thousands of individual cells, with thousands of potential points of failure and then building a box to hold them. In the end, you still have to deal with their size and shape, and only so many things can be done with those form factors. Another reason I like prismatic cells is that they can be repurposed for energy storage/home backup when they no longer have sufficient remaining capacity for an EV application. It is much easier to work with the modules that often have bolted connections, than doing a bunch of soldering of BMS leads. When I first started buying batteries 3 years ago, I made that choice, and have never regretted it.


Well, I have never tried to build one, so I am undoubtedly under-estimating the work involved. I was not really thinking about prismatic cells with plates and bolts for connectors, I was thinking about the reuse of entire modules from other cars -- Tesla modules, Volt modules, Leaf, or ganging the high-discharge packs from hybrids together. It seems like individual cells of 18650 could allow the most flexibility, but you are right that spot-welding thousands of cells to tabs would get tedious. 

I may be missing something obvious, but doesn't paralleling cells into high AH modules and then serial connecting them together require heavier connections between cells within the module as opposed to creating high voltage low AH modules and then paralleling those onto heavy bus bars ? To the point that cells connected into a 370v module could get away with light gauge connections ?

As far as prismatic cells go, I always seem to see them upright in battery boxes, making it impossible to get a form factor less than 6" tall. Does anybody lay them flat for a box only 2-3" tall to bolt up in a belly-pan tray ? Having a thin, flat battery pack that keeps the cg low seems desirable, ala Tesla and others, while the taller packs crammed into a center tunnel and under seats like the Volt much less desirable. Reconfiguring Tesla cells would also be the lowest cost/kwh that I have found while keeping a lightweight pack. 

What prismatic cells would you recommend that would be under $150/kwh, as light weight as 18650 cells, and have a 5C continuous 10C burst discharge power ?


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## remy_martian (Feb 4, 2019)

What cells have a 5C continuous rating???


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## Ken S (8 mo ago)

you might pull 5C continuously, but not repeatedly. At 5C the SOC would drop from 100% to zero in 12 minutes. Assuming nothing caught fire, you might do that a few times, but it's not a good way to treat your investment.


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