# [EVDL] 14-50 outlet electrical-code question ...



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Hi Bruce,
If the outlet is designated for a specified use, such as your typical
charging circuit, no neutral is required. Meaning that you would be okay to
use 2 #8 thhn wires (the current carrying conductors (red, black, or blue))
and 1 #10 (ground (green)) for your circuit. This is what is typically done
for most EVSE locations. We do pull a 3 #8 (white) when there is a 110
outlet at the EVSE.
-Tom



> brucedp5 <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> > Even though we are having very odd drought-threatening weather in
> > the SF area, it is the time of year for the raining season which I had
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

If you run through another set of feeders through a junction box which feed 
through to another junction box which uses a conduit, it is best to run a 
separate conduit to the other junction box if both receptacles are being use 
at the same time.

The nema 14-50 receptacle which I also use, has one 3/4 inch conduit running 
from the panel to the first junction box, which is a 4-11/16 square junction 
box that is 2-1/8 inches deep. This is not deep enough for a feed through 
to the next receptacle.

I have three nema 14-50 receptacles on the same 50 amp 2 pole breaker that 
the wires in each box is splice together with a 6 inch lead to the 
receptacle. To increase the capacity of the box, I install a 4-11/16 by 
2-1/8 inch extension box which has no back and bolts directly to the 
junction box. A 4-11/16 x 4-11/16 x 3/4 inch deep drywall or sometimes call 
a plaster ring for a 2-gang device as your nema 14-50 receptacle if you are 
flush mounting in a wall.

If you surface mount the junction box, then you use a surface mounted steel 
cover that is 1/2 inch raise that screws to the four holes in the junction 
box.

I can plug in my EV in the garage or outside in two different areas.
This is the same as having 3 to 6 120V 15 or 20 amp receptacles on the same 
20 amp breaker. We have install several 50 amp 125/250 volt receptacles on 
the same 50 amp breaker.

The receptacle now sets in the extension box and the feed thru and/or 
splices connections are in the junction box.

A 3/4 inch conduit can accept four No. AWG 6 copper stranded wire which 
should be type THHN/THWN with a rating of 75C or 90C. Any other insulation 
type as THW will need a 1 inch conduit.

The Nema 15-50 receptacle is design for 125/250 volt. If you want to drop 
the neutral where the a dedicated load does not require a neutral, you must 
remove this installation when you sell this housing in the future. If some 
one plugs in a 4 wire plug that needs a neutral where the neutral may be 
center tap in a load device, you could get feed back to the neutral in the 
plug.

I had seen this happen when a neutral wire disconnected from the load where 
there was line voltage potential on the neutral. If someone down the line 
was working on the same neutral circuit, it was like working on a live wire.

It is best to run the neutral to the receptacles and not in the plug to the 
EV.

I would contact the inspector office to see if you can drop the neutral in a 
nema 14-50 receptacle. I use the neutral to my EV which terminates to a 
large 4-wire terminal block. The two feeder lines and ground go to the 
charger from this terminal block and a 120 volt taps off the terminal block 
to several chassis mount 20 amp 1-pole breakers.

This extra 120 volt circuit is use for preheating up to three electric 
heaters. A transfer control switch either selects the outboard 120 vac 
power or onboard power for the heater. Also the 120 vac is use to run 
additional blower fans to bring in outside air to the charger that is in a 
electrical isolated compartment. The 120 vac is use to exhaust the air in a 
enclosed battery box while the batteries are charging.

Roland






----- Original Message ----- 
From: "brucedp5" <[email protected]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, February 23, 2012 9:12 PM
Subject: [EVDL] 14-50 outlet electrical-code question ...


> Even though we are having very odd drought-threatening weather in
> the SF area, it is the time of year for the raining season which I had
> queued to finish the electrical panel work for a local EAA Chapter
> (rainy-day work). I spent time finding out who wants what outlets,
> how many breaker slots I would need, the idiosyncrasies of the special
> electrical box layout design, what wiring I will need to run to the
> higher amperage outlets, when I noticed, the square metal electrical
> box knock-outs have a limited amount of space to route all the wiring
> through to all the other square metal electrical boxes (are all the
> wires going fit?).
>
> So, I need to know from an electrical code standpoint, do I have to
> have the neutral wire to the 14-50 outlets if no one is going to use
> them?
>
> I am proposing the outlets would only have two hots and a ground
> to only provide 208VAC 40A power. Will this pass an electrician's
> inspection according to electrical code?
>
> Please let me know, as this is my bottleneck/hold-point before I can
> proceed to call in my order of upgrade/retrofit parts.
>
>
> {brucedp.150m.com}
>
> --
> View this message in context: 
> http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/14-50-outlet-electrical-code-question-tp4416167p4416167.html
> Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at 
> Nabble.com.
>
> _______________________________________________
> | Moratorium on drag racing discussion is in effect.
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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Thos True wrote:
> 
> > If the outlet is designated for a specified use, such as your typical
> > charging circuit, no neutral is required.
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Hi Roger,
I am curious which part of 625 you are referring to. In re-reading it, I
did not see any notations regarding the requirement for a neutral conductor.
As a commercial electrician, I have done several installations in just this
fashoin, and have not had any issues with inspections. The purpose of
making it a dedicated circuit is to identify it as a circuit that cannot be
split down to lower voltages for other uses.
-Tom



> Roger Stockton <[email protected]>wrote:
> 
> > Thos True wrote:
> >
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Bill Dube wrote:
> 
> > Simple, don't designate the outlet as anything. There is no
> > requirement to do so.
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Thos True wrote:
> 
> > I am curious which part of 625 you are referring to. In re-reading it, I
> > did not see any notations regarding the requirement for a neutral
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

In the original version of 625, they put in a ridiculous requirement 
that the EV charging receptacle had to be different than every other 
outlet on the premises. They changed this silly requirement because 
it disallowed more than one EV outlet. Perhaps that is what Roger is 
referring to.

At 10:26 AM 2/24/2012, you wrote:
>Hi Roger,
>I am curious which part of 625 you are referring to. In re-reading it, I
>did not see any notations regarding the requirement for a neutral conductor.
>As a commercial electrician, I have done several installations in just this
>fashoin, and have not had any issues with inspections. The purpose of
>making it a dedicated circuit is to identify it as a circuit that cannot be
>split down to lower voltages for other uses.
>-Tom
>
>


> Roger Stockton <[email protected]>wrote:
> >
> > > Thos True wrote:
> > >
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Bill Dube wrote:
> 
> > In the original version of 625, they put in a ridiculous requirement
> > that the EV charging receptacle had to be different than every other
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

625.22 allows the use of a receptacle for cord connected charging units
provided that the cord is 12" or less in length, and that the circuit has a
disconnecting means (its own (dedicated) breaker). It does not limit this
outlet to 20A. The general code also requires that you mark each circuit in
the panel for its intended use (Car Charger, for example).
I should have also pointed out that while a 14-50 (or 14-30) outlet can be
wired for this use, it should have the breaker sized for the charging load
whether it is 25A or larger up to the 50A (in the case of the 14-50),
although there are not many chargers on the market that draw more than 25A
for the general public (except Rudman's selection. of course).

-Tom



> Roger Stockton <[email protected]>wrote:
> 
> > Thos True wrote:
> >
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

My thanks to everyone that responded. Lots of good information and
ideas.

The 120A Square D power panel was originally designed and put together
by an EAA Chapter member who was a EE. He (now deceased) did a nice
job on it. But it was created with lots of 5-20 outlets mounted in 
4" square metal electrical boxes on two sides. When the late 1990's
Production EVs were being fakie-leased, he retrofitted two of those
boxes to have 14-50 40A outlets, plus two 6-20 outlets.

I volunteered myself to take on the task to bring the panel into
the year 2012 with a two more 14-50 40A outlets, two more 6-20
outlets, and yet still have six 5-20 circuits available. My goal
was to maximize the panel's flexibility of use (best-bang for the
EAA Chapter's buck).

But as before, when that EE was alive, the panel has more capability
than the service disconnect (the panel's breaker) was designed for.
So, when in use, all the breakers start being off, and only the ones
in use will be turned on. When 120A is reached, no more breakers/
outlets can be energized.

Yes, this setup is a little wild, but it means that it can be used 
in several different scenarios.

A couple of months ago the panel was wanted for charging several
Leaf EVs overnight using level-1, and 3kW during the daytime EVent.

At eaasv.org Rally/EVents, Tesla Roadsters show up that want a 
charge. After I am done, I might be able to squeeze four of them on
that panel. 

Or anything and everything in-between.

Each EV has its own requirements. The Leaf and a couple other EVs
can only charge at 3kW Level-2 rate. The Ford Focus, and Coda can pull
a full 6.6kW Level-2 rate.

I am in a holding pattern until the local EAA Chapter member
electrician makes their judgement call. But this thread has helped
me. If in their opinion, I 'have-to' run an 8 gauge neutral to the
two additional 14-50 outlets I want, then I could just install two
6-50 outlets instead of two more 14-50 outlets. 

The problem with that is most venturesome drivers are 14-50 RV Park 
outlet ready, and likely not prepared to connect to a 6-50. I would
need to also make adapter cables (from 6-50 to 14-50). This would
not be my first design choice, but because the EV code was written
(not-EV-friendly) to keep EVs off the road as much as possible,
workarounds do happen.

Thanks again for everyone's help.

{brucedp.150m.com}








> Roger Stockton wrote:
> > Thos True wrote:
> >
> > > If the outlet is designated for a specified use, such as your typical
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Thos True wrote:
> 
> > 625.22 allows the use of a receptacle for cord connected charging units
> > provided that the cord is 12" or less in length, and that the circuit has
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

It is standard practice to have the sum of the branch breaker amps be 
considerably larger than the main service breaker capacity. The 
typical "diversity" of the load on each of the branch breakers is 
such that they all are not loaded to full amperage all at once. Thus, 
the main breaker very very rarely trips.

The breakers are there to protect the conductors from overheating. 
They will do so.

If the main trips, it is not a disaster. Just turn off all the branch 
breakers, reset the main breaker, and then ask folks that are able to 
back down their chargers a notch. Then turn on the branch breakers.

Bill D.


>But as before, when that EE was alive, the panel has more capability
>than the service disconnect (the panel's breaker) was designed for.
>So, when in use, all the breakers start being off, and only the ones
>in use will be turned on. When 120A is reached, no more breakers/
>outlets can be energized.

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

My old house had a NEMA 10-50 for the stove and 10-30 for drier
connection. Very standard and easy to get a plug that fits in
either one. 240V (hot+hot) and ground only.

I have never seen a 5-50 or 6- or 7-

Cor van de Water
Chief Scientist
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
Email: [email protected] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water XoIP: +31877841130
Tel: +1 408 383 7626 Tel: +91 (040)23117400 x203 

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On
Behalf Of Roger Stockton
Sent: Friday, February 24, 2012 9:10 AM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] 14-50 outlet electrical-code question ...



> Thos True wrote:
> 
> > If the outlet is designated for a specified use, such as your typical
> > charging circuit, no neutral is required.
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Thos True wrote:
> > I am curious which part of 625 you are referring to. In re-reading it, I
> > did not see any notations regarding the requirement for a neutral conductor.
> > As a commercial electrician, I have done several installations in just this
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Cor van de Water wrote:
> 
> > My old house had a NEMA 10-50 for the stove and 10-30 for drier
> > connection. Very standard and easy to get a plug that fits in
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Where can one find the UL 625 online?
Thanks
Rush 

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Thos True" <[email protected]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, February 24, 2012 11:58 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] 14-50 outlet electrical-code question ...


> 625.22 allows the use of a receptacle for cord connected charging units
> provided that the cord is 12" or less in length, and that the circuit has a
> disconnecting means (its own (dedicated) breaker). It does not limit this
> outlet to 20A. The general code also requires that you mark each circuit in
> the panel for its intended use (Car Charger, for example).
> I should have also pointed out that while a 14-50 (or 14-30) outlet can be
> wired for this use, it should have the breaker sized for the charging load
> whether it is 25A or larger up to the 50A (in the case of the 14-50),
> although there are not many chargers on the market that draw more than 25A
> for the general public (except Rudman's selection. of course).
> 

_______________________________________________
| Moratorium on drag racing discussion is in effect.
| Please take those discussions elsewhere. Thanks.
|
| REPLYING: address your message to [email protected] only.
| Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
| UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
| OTHER HELP: http://evdl.org/help/
| CONFIGURE: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Rush wrote:
> 
> > Where can one find the UL 625 online?
> 
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Hi Roger,

Thanks for providing that link. It made me realize that I am using a 10-30R
and 10-30P set of connectors different than they were intended. I have them
wired to a hot-hot-ground system rather than hot-hot-neutral. I'm OK in my
usage, because I wired both the receptacle and the plug and ground is really
present in the receptacle and expected in the plug, but I shouldn't leave it
this way for the next owner. I should upgrade my plug and receptacle to
match the connectors expected for a hot-hot-ground as I'm really using.
Something to add to my list of things to do!

Mike

> -----Original Message-----
> From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On
> Behalf Of Roger Stockton
> Sent: Friday, February 24, 2012 3:00 PM
> To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] 14-50 outlet electrical-code question ...
> 


> > Cor van de Water wrote:
> >
> > > My old house had a NEMA 10-50 for the stove and 10-30 for drier
> > > connection. Very standard and easy to get a plug that fits in either
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Thanks Roger,

I tried googling UL 625.... but I guess google returns better results if you put in the correct 
info, like NEC 625.

regards,
Rush

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Roger Stockton" <[email protected]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, February 24, 2012 11:35 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] 14-50 outlet electrical-code question ...




> > Rush wrote:
> >
> >> Where can one find the UL 625 online?
> >
> ...


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