# Cost/Performance Reality



## corbin (Apr 6, 2010)

Prezidint said:


> Hello all. I am strongly considering doing an EV build this summer. I intend to buy a late 90s/early 2000s manual compact car (civic sized) and convert it. I can do all of the work and fabrication myself.
> 
> Ideally, I'd like a finished car that could go 80 miles, guaranteed, on a full charge on the worst day of winter (0 degrees, figure).
> 
> ...


my ballpark guess is that an 80 mile range, with decent performance, will probably cost $20,000 or more. 

I spent at least 20k on my conversion's electronic bits and batteries, and I can probably safely get a 70 mile range, and get a good 90 mile range if I drive soft (and don't go up the big hills I normally drive on). I didn't heat my batteries; if you regularly have 0 C degree weather then you will need to also do battery heating.

corbin


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## Sunking (Aug 10, 2009)

I have a 2004 Honda Civic LS/automatic 4-sale with 60K miles, new ties for $8K and is in excellent shape. It gets 38/mpg all day long any day of the year. You do not have to give up anything like heat, air conditioning, power windows and door locks, and a great stereo. It has a range of 500 miles winter or summer. At 80/mph on highway will get 40/mpg


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## Prezidint (Mar 1, 2012)

corbin said:


> my ballpark guess is that an 80 mile range, with decent performance, will probably cost $20,000 or more. . . .
> 
> corbin


Thank you for that info.


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## Prezidint (Mar 1, 2012)

Sunking said:


> I have a 2004 Honda Civic LS/automatic 4-sale with 60K miles, new ties for $8K and is in excellent shape. It gets 38/mpg all day long any day of the year. You do not have to give up anything like heat, air conditioning, power windows and door locks, and a great stereo. It has a range of 500 miles winter or summer. At 80/mph on highway will get 40/mpg


I have never been to a forum on the Internet that didn't have at least 1 resident troll. The difference here is that you usually don't get harassed by them on the 2nd post of the 1st thread you post.

I suppose that you may be attempting a ham-handed bit of humor here, as in, "you're expecting too much." Some folks have a hard time in anonymous forums showing just a little decorum. Ah well. It's the state of the world.

For the information of anybody who's not intent on trolling this thread, the reason I'm interested in EV is simply because, in my view, gasoline will be rationed in the U.S. within the next 5 years, and probably the next 2 or 3.

So I'm trying to figure out the cost of the next best alternative.

Gas at 10 bucks a gallon and I'll stick to my Honda Fit.

Gas at 5 gallons a week and I'd like to have option B.


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## frodus (Apr 12, 2008)

I don't think he was trolling....

I think he meant that you should consider keeping it Gas because the economics of converting the car including time, money, labor can turn out to be more than just keeping it stock and using it as is and paying gas. 

*NOTE: These are estimates for discussion only, real numbers may vary, but these are close.*

So, lets say you get an AC50 motor/controller combo (regen) for about $4550, and enough batteries for a light car to go a solid 100 miles. Lets say 300wh/mile is what the car would get (this could be lower but I always overshoot). That's a 30kWh pack. Lets say that the batteries cost $0.40/Wh, that would be $12k in batteries. Now add to that a charger for another $800 or so for an Elcon 2kw charger, another $2-300 for a DC-DC converter, ~2-400 for cables, wiring, fuses.... lets just say you're somewhere right around $20,000 for the conversion... which doesn't account for the countless hours it would take anyone to convert a car. That doesn't include any shipping or battery monitoring or gauges.

So lets say the car you want to convert gets 30mpg, and gas is ~$5 somewhere in the future and you want to go 120,000 miles. That's 4000 gallons. Lets say you change the oil every 6k miles for $30, for $600 and do another maybe $2400 in repairs/tires. $20,000 for gas, and $3000 for maintenance and you're at ~$23k

Then lets say you pay $0.15/kwh and your charger is 90% efficient. That 30kwh would require 33.3kwh of energy for every 100 miles and cost ~$5. 120,000 miles would be 1200 charges and cost ~$6000. That's if you don't have to replace the battery pack before then (you may not have to).

So it would cost you $20k for the conversion, $6k for the electricity. for a total that would likely be higher than $26k to go electric, and $23,000 to stay ICE for the same amount of miles. 

*I'm not arguing one way or another. Its just a hard fact that the economics just don't pan out very well for cars that already get pretty good gas mileage. It is nice to be independent from the rationing if/when it happens though. We just want to make sure you get everything up front, that's all.
*


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## Prezidint (Mar 1, 2012)

frodus said:


> I don't think he was trolling....
> *I'm not arguing one way or another. Its just a hard fact that the economics just don't pan out very well for cars that already get pretty good gas mileage. It is nice to be independent from the rationing if/when it happens though. We just want to make sure you get everything up front, that's all.
> *


Well, if he wasn't intentionally trolling, then that would be sad.

Hey man, I really appreciate your post. It was useful to me.

It's not about the money or the proof of the technology. It's pretty obvious to me that electric vehicles can never and will never replace the ICE vehicle as the ICE vehicle is used today. Heck, I'd argue that, long term, electricity itself isn't sustainable, but that's some other generation's (pun!) issue, not ours.


An EV has one, and only one, use for me - it's an alternative to FF ICEs so that I can get where I need to be when I can't buy gasoline or diesel, which I don't think is too far away.

So the smart-ass troll who assumed I was too stupid to do the math to figure out that an EV can't compete with an ICE with gas at 4 or 5 bucks a gallon had zero understanding of my needs for an EV and why I'm posting here.

In short, his 8k automatic (ew) civic is worth nothing to me if I can't get gasoline for it.

My timelines are this - 
Free purchasing of gasoline ends between 2012 and 2015, and rationing takes over.
Shortages occur between 2014-2016.
Electricity grid is stable for 20+ years, barring violent civil discord.

So, therefore, my interest in an EV.

Ideally, I'd rather have a wood-burner organic gas driven vehicle, but there are more issues with that than with EVs.


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## Ziggythewiz (May 16, 2010)

You do realize we're currently exporting oil, right? That's why gas has been going up lately.

20 years from now anyone intelligent will have a solar powered house & car and electricity will be cheaper than ever.


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## Prezidint (Mar 1, 2012)

Ziggythewiz said:


> You do realize we're currently exporting oil, right? That's why gas has been going up lately.


Not sure what you're getting at here. The U.S. uses much more oil than it produces every day. Our net imports are ghastly. The reason that gasoline prices are going up is because oil is going up. The reason that oil is going up is because production is constrained. I really don't want to open up this thread to a "why oil production is flat and/or declining" thread, so I'll leave it at that, and add - the oil age is ending abruptly. Oil was about 20 bucks a barrel in 2001. It's now about 110 bucks a barrel. That's a 5.5 fold increase in price over 11 or 12 years. Oil is 40% of all energy used in the U.S.. A 5x increase in price over 11 years in the most important energy source to Americans should have everybody's attention and get them thinking.




Ziggythewiz said:


> 20 years from now anyone intelligent will have a solar powered house & car and electricity will be cheaper than ever.


The thought that any appreciable amount of electricity will ever be mad by solar is fanciful, not realistic. Solar panels are extremely energy intensive to make, and, as oil and all other FF prices go to the moon, the cost of solar panels will follow. Same with battery tech. 

In 20 years, most people will not be able to afford a solar panel to heat a bowl of soup.


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## Guest (Mar 1, 2012)

Sounds like your a Prepper. Good luck with your endeavors. I will survive. Will you? I have my energy for the next 50 + years. I do plan on living to 125 you know. So I invested in the future. 

By the way, a piss off attitude right out of the gate is not a good thing. I don't mind getting pissy but right out of the gate? Really? 


Pete


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## Guest (Mar 1, 2012)

> In 20 years, most people will not be able to afford a solar panel to heat a bowl of soup.


Solar panels don't all produce electricity. Some just reflect the sun to heat things. That will be around a long time and things can be made with junk and will work just fine. But in the end those things will be in danger of being stolen from you. Beware in the end. Prep.


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## Guest (Mar 1, 2012)

I will always be able to heat my bowl of soup and cook my fish too.


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## Sunking (Aug 10, 2009)

frodus said:


> I don't think he was trolling....
> 
> I think he meant that you should consider keeping it Gas because the economics of converting the car including time, money, labor can turn out to be more than just keeping it stock and using it as is and paying gas.


Ditto.

Look at my post count silly. I just gave you some very good advice. However I do not know you nor do I care about you, so spend that money. I am sure the receivers of your cash will be glad to take it off your hands. I just hope they give you a PINK FEATHER so both of you will be TICKLED PINK with the deal.

Do you know who P.T Barnum is?


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

Hi Prezident

My answer would be - yes you can - But 15K will require some scrounging

Batteries - don't think you can scrounge - here - 10K - 12K

Motor - mine was ex-forklift $100
Controller - OpenRevolt = $600
Charger - home made "bad Boy" - $150

Contactors, fuses, cable - do some scrounging

Motor/gearbox adapter - DIY - $300

So you can do it for $15K - but it will involve a fair amount of DIY


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## Prezidint (Mar 1, 2012)

Duncan - thanks for the thoughts.



Sunking said:


> Look at my post count silly.


Oh dear goofball, you mean you're a prolific troll? Well done.



> I just gave you some very good advice. However I do not know you nor do I care about you, so spend that money. I am sure the receivers of your cash will be glad to take it off your hands. I just hope they give you a PINK FEATHER so both of you will be TICKLED PINK with the deal.


You gave me lousy, ignorant, trolling advice that was based completely on assumption.
I came here looking for an alternative when gasoline is not available and you, in all your sagacity, said, "buy a gasoline car." 



> Do you know who P.T Barnum is?


Your hero? The original troll whom you worship. The sucker king who you suck?

To the person who said something about acting pissy, like I wrote - I came here and asked a legitimate question and some a-hole with too much time on his hands trolls me with some sarcasm.

No biggy. Ad folks, I'm sure, don't care too much about losing new posters because of trolls with high post counts who are much less likely to click on advertising banners than the high post count trolls. 

Take care.


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

Prezidint, I think you missed the tongue in cheek intent behind the reality check one of our members tried to offer you.

The simple answer is no, $15000 for 80 miles in winter is not realistic. I'm not the only one here who has built such a vehicle. A few of us built such vehicles and speak from experience.

Its not unusual for a new member to come here expecting to find a cheap ($10000 or less) EV to do 100 miles. Its just not realistic and sometimes we get tired of having to explain that.

If you stick around long enough, you'll find some of these long term members can be head strong but find a way to get along anyway.


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## MN Driver (Sep 29, 2009)

$10000 for an EV 100 miles. An electric bike will do that easily. Stepping up to a motorcycle could do it, not sure what speed before you can't do 100 miles at the price though. In a car, 80 miles, you need either a very lightweight car, under 1000 pounds like a Fiat 500, Fiat 126(a guy got 40 miles with an 8kwh pack), or something else that will crush like a can if you hit a jackolope or mailbox.

80 miles *might* be possible for $10000 with a used controller or a P&S DIY controller, cheap secondhand forklift motor, and an 18kwh pack (144v of 130Ah CALB LiFePO4 cells would be $7000) put into a 2-seater Honda CRX HF or Honda Insight. You'll probably find the used and cheap stuff sucks and that you'll also need instrumentation but hey, possibly $12000. A 1995 or newer Toyota Tercel doesn't have too bad of a score in the drag area department if you want a 5 seater for cheap to put an expensive system into, just be sure you find one in stellar condition with no rust or other body issues, make sure the transmission, brakes, etc are good or at least cheaply and easily repairable. For a Tercel though, you're probably looking at 250wh/mile, maybe a little less if you were okay with a Geo Metro which might be the most aerodynamic 4 seater(or is it 2 adults 3 children, not sure) that you can convert but with the room you need for batteries, you'll likely either heavily modify the body to fit the batteries or just lose the rear seat and turn it into a 2 seater anyway.

80 miles is spendy. Doesn't matter how you look at it. Getting a lightweight and aerodynamic car is key. Get something capable of at least 35mpg or better on the highway as a gas car and you've got a decent start for something that can do 80 miles for under $15k.

I'm looking for a 100 mile(completely dry) conversion of my Honda Insight for about $15k, it's the only car from 2000 and on that I think could do it at that price. Fitting the batteries will be a royal pain in the a## since I am keeping the spare tire.


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## Ziggythewiz (May 16, 2010)

An e-bike or e-cycle won't protect you from the zombies either.


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## marklaken (Jan 26, 2012)

FWIW, solar power is currently cheap in my area - I was able to install 3Kw grid-tied system to my house for about $5k out of pocket last year ($11k in subsidies) - that is pretty damn cheap and adds to the flexibility of my local grid

when the zombies come, I will disconnect from the grid, install it on a trailer and madmax it in my electric beetle across the post apocalyptic desert until mel gibson gets me killed in a plot to refuel his camaro...


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## puddleglum (Oct 22, 2008)

I've read through this thread and I have to ask,(honest question) if there is no cost savings to be had in going electric, then why do you do it? I know there is potential gas shortages(hey, the world could end this year too) and there's the "save the environment" thing, but is that really all that the electric car has in it's favor? if it is, it will never last. I really do want an electric car as well, I think they are very cool, but there are 2 major stumbling blocks for me. The first is I can't afford the cost, but that could possibly change in the future. The second is the bigger one. It's the fact that no matter how many times I run the numbers, I can't see any way that it would pay for itself. I would only need a short range EV and it doesn't pay. The OP needs a longer range EV and your saying it doesn't pay. So, when does it pay, or does it ever? Can an electric vehicle really be cheaper than gas (all costs in), or are they really just expensive toys?


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## EVfun (Mar 14, 2010)

We are car customizers and early adopters. It is rare that either of those are cost effective. If you run the numbers it is rare that an EV will pay for itself. We start be ripping out a bunch of perfectly good parts from a running car or restoring something old (which almost never pays either.) If it was all about cost effectiveness I suspect most people would be driving various compact and subcompact economy cars.


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

EVfun said:


> We are car customizers and early adopters. It is rare that either of those are cost effective. If you run the numbers it is rare that an EV will pay for itself. We start be ripping out a bunch of perfectly good parts from a running car or restoring something old (which almost never pays either.) If it was all about cost effectiveness I suspect most people would be driving various compact and subcompact economy cars.




I suspect most people would be driving various - *OLD* - compact and subcompact economy cars


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## Joey (Oct 12, 2007)

puddleglum said:


> I've read through this thread and I have to ask,(honest question) if there is no cost savings to be had in going electric, then why do you do it? I know there is potential gas shortages(hey, the world could end this year too) and there's the "save the environment" thing, but is that really all that the electric car has in it's favor? if it is, it will never last. I really do want an electric car as well, I think they are very cool, but there are 2 major stumbling blocks for me. The first is I can't afford the cost, but that could possibly change in the future. The second is the bigger one. It's the fact that no matter how many times I run the numbers, I can't see any way that it would pay for itself. I would only need a short range EV and it doesn't pay. The OP needs a longer range EV and your saying it doesn't pay. So, when does it pay, or does it ever? Can an electric vehicle really be cheaper than gas (all costs in), or are they really just expensive toys?


Mine will pay back in 175,000 miles- within the lifetime of the components. The expense is largely upfront which is limiting to a lot of people. There are some big assumptions about the future price of gas and electricity, and the opportunity cost of a large investment is not considered. Payback or break even analysis is not why I'm doing it. 

- Cost efficiency and payback are not the only considerations for buying a car. Plenty of people buy cars that aren't the cheapest solution that will get the job done. I see them on the road every day. 
- We net import oil and pay people who don't like us so that we can burn it in our cars. 
-An electric drive is quite, lots of torque, fun, and clean.
-Most people that do a conversion truely enjoy the challenge and reward of doing the project. The process is every bit as fun as the end result.


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## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

puddleglum said:


> I've read through this thread and I have to ask,(honest question) if there is no cost savings to be had in going electric, then why do you do it?...


In 1984, Motorola introduced the first cell phone to the world (which was immediately bestowed the ambivalent nickname, the Brick, for obvious reasons). It weighed 2#, could only be used in the core downtown area of the largest US cities and it promised (but rarely delivered) a talk time of 30 minutes per charge. All for the bargain price of $3995!

The people who bought that first cell phone always tried to justify the expense to the incredulous hoi polloi with reasons like "it allowed me to close a big deal while driving to the airport"; even though the pathetic number of cell towers meant every call was dropped as soon as they strayed farther than about 3 miles from the center of downtown. Deep down inside they knew the real reasons for buying the World's First Cellphone were anything but economically rational: they just wanted it to be cool/different/cutting edge.

Early adopters of EVs, like those of the Brick, know that they, too, are going to pay an obscene amount of money for something most people will dismiss as a toy, as economically irrational, etc. But here's the funny thing: _they don't care what _rational_ people think_. They realize their purchase isn't rational but unlike you, they realize that purchasing a car of any kind isn't truly economically justifiable, anymore than having a phone - landline or cellular - is "economically justifiable". That is to say: you need food; you need shelter; you don't need a car or a (cell) phone.

The fact that the typical EV uses $0.03 per mile in electricity is kind of irrelevant to the early adopters. Most of them care more about being able to "refuel" at home using electricity from a variety of sources, rather than rely on oil imported from other countries, most of which really do hate us. Others are hooked on the insanely fun feel of driving a car that punches you in the back with massive acceleration, even from a complete stop. There is no economic justification for wanting that anymore than there is one for installing a nitrous oxide fogger for your ICE.

Unfortunately, the very name of this forum - Do It Yourself Electric Car - seems to attract people who think that the main goal of doing a conversion is to "save money"... when the car they own right now isn't saving them any money! If this is your only motivation to convert a car to electric then you better be happy driving a Geo Metro with 48V of lead-acid batteries riding shotgun; if your motivation is to put the joy back into driving, to give the middle east a well-deserved one-finger salute, and to wave to all the schmucks stalled out in rush hour congestion while you whiz by in the HOV lane, then by all means start your scheming now, evil genius.

There is no middle ground for EVs at this time. It simply isn't practical to convert, say, a minivan that a soccer mom can drive 100 miles every day to shuttle the brats between violin and karate and... uh, soccer. So unless you will be happy using forklift/golf-cart power-level components to propel a crappy little econobox that still weighs 3x as much as the typical golf cart then your conversion will be _expensive!_ It will be maddeningly fun to drive, however.


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## Salty9 (Jul 13, 2009)

Tesseract said:


> There is no middle ground for EVs at this time. It simply isn't practical to convert, say, a minivan that a soccer mom can drive 100 miles every day to shuttle the brats between violin and karate and... uh, soccer. So unless you will be happy using forklift/golf-cart power-level components to propel a crappy little econobox that still weighs 3x as much as the typical golf cart then your conversion will be _expensive!_ It will be maddeningly fun to drive, however.


Everything Tesseract wrote is true but he omitted mentioning a role that EVs could fill handily. That is a small EV (tadpole trike) for commuting. People have been taught that they should use a single vehicle for most of their transportation needs which leads to vehicles that don't perform optimally for most uses and people driving 2 and 3 ton vehicles to work and bitching about the price of gas.


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## Sunking (Aug 10, 2009)

puddleglum said:


> I think they are very cool


I think you just answered the question for the majority. It is like an Apple Computer, they have that COOL factor going for them, but as a computer they are not a very good one, but folks still pay a premium price for it.

For right now, you are correct, there is no way to save any money over the life of the car, even using my money to pay for it in the form of a uselss subsidy.

However IMO with working in the Electric Utility and Telecom sector for 30 years I see it as the development stage for the American public to get deprogrammed and ready for Thorium and Fast Breeder Nuclear reactors being built out, and to get the battery technology worked out for that 300 to 400 mile range with 5000 charge/discharge cycles. Once we get those two issues worked out, the USA can be completely energy independent. We pretty much already have the technology exceept for the batteries. The rest we already have in commercial production and operation.


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

I was recently asked by my college to attend an open house in the next town to display my EV (well within range so I drove it). They had some 700 highschool students come through to try and get an idea for what kind of carreer they wanted to shoot for once they hit post-secondary. Obviously we didn't see all 700 at our section since not everyone was interested in trades like HD mechanic or electronics but at times it was quite a crowd.

My instructor had his table set up with two scaled down sun trackers designed for solar panels, and a tesla coil (all three were student built) while I had my car parked outside the door with the hood popped. Between the tesla coil and the EV we stole the show that day (they went to that tesla coil like moths to a flame).

I don't know what sort of role cars like mine could take in the near future, but sometimes I tend to forget just how few people are able to carry out such a project - to me its just another car to get you around. However where I live, hardly anyone has even seen a highway capable EV. I'll admit cost per mile was a big factor (currently I spend a calculated ~$2 per week to drive the car to class), but the cool factor is something too. I spent nearly as much time explaining the car to faculty members as I did students.

The car may still pay for itself in the long term by not burning gasoline but that can't be certain until it reaches 10 or 15 years of age. Or, it could pay for itself by getting me a dream carreer after I graduate. I was interviewed by the college last year and many students/faculty members already knew me from that. 

I've modified my perspective on reasons behind EVs many times since starting the project, but one thing that still seems to hold true, is that there is no single reason that is good enough to do it. Not for me, at least. Instead there are many reasons and not all of them will be appearent on day one.


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## powerhouse (Apr 1, 2011)

Tesseract said:


> In 1984, Motorola introduced the first cell phone to the world (which was immediately bestowed the ambivalent nickname, the Brick, for obvious reasons). It weighed 2#, could only be used in the core downtown area of the largest US cities and it promised (but rarely delivered) a talk time of 30 minutes per charge. All for the bargain price of $3995!
> 
> The people who bought that first cell phone always tried to justify the expense to the incredulous hoi polloi with reasons like "it allowed me to close a big deal while driving to the airport"; even though the pathetic number of cell towers meant every call was dropped as soon as they strayed farther than about 3 miles from the center of downtown. Deep down inside they knew the real reasons for buying the World's First Cellphone were anything but economically rational: they just wanted it to be cool/different/cutting edge.
> 
> ...


Absolutely beautifully said! This should be in the FAQ


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## glaurung (Nov 11, 2009)

Hi,
for doing a conversion because oil running out, that it is good to be prepared. Buy solar panels now and you will go a long time after grid has fallen Or make a generator that can use wood as fuel.
On getting even financially, it is hard to do with small car. I am doing even on 60 000km on my range Rover,first year i saved almost half of my battery pack worth gasoline. So three years should do it. 
Harri


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## puddleglum (Oct 22, 2008)

Tesseract said:


> Early adopters of EVs, like those of the Brick, know that they, too, are going to pay an obscene amount of money for something most people will dismiss as a toy, as economically irrational, etc. But here's the funny thing: _they don't care what _rational_ people think_. They realize their purchase isn't rational but unlike you, they realize that purchasing a car of any kind isn't truly economically justifiable.


Thank you all for your replies. Believe me, I fully understand that every car purchase is a bad investment and a new car is probably the absolute worst. Most people, myself included, waste an obscene amount of money on vehicles that they don't really need. I do think cars are a need in our society for most people, but not the kind that most people buy. I foolishly convinced myself that I needed a new car a few years ago. It was one of the worst financial decisions I've ever made. I've regretted it ever since, but it's done and I'll live with the consequences. 

Thing is, I really want an EV, or maybe a plug in hybrid, mostly for all the reasons you guys have just stated. I really don't want to go to all the work to build a car that can't get out of it's own way. I've been lurking, learning and admiring many of your accomplishments for a couple of years now. I just hear all sorts of claims on EV sites saying how much money you can save with one, but when I run the numbers it just doesn't add up. I really appreciate you guys being honest. I think threads like this are good to have because it puts a more accurate perspective on what you are doing. I guess I'm looking for some valid reasons not to give up on another dream in the name of practicality. Keep up the good work and I'll keep watching for now.


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## njloof (Nov 21, 2011)

In particular, watch battery prices.


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## Mark C (Jun 25, 2010)

I too am looking forward to driving an EV, partly for the same reason I installed a small solar array at my home. Because I can, and because it lets the owners of the status quo know that they are not the only game in town for those who choose not to play. My intention is to expand that solar array so that I live in an electric bill free home _after_ including the juice to run my EV. I want to provide for my family's future in an era when retirement plans don't seem up to the task. 

I'm currently in the middle of a project that is taking a good bit longer than I originally anticipated, but I do plan to convert something that will make me happy. My plan is to buy a DC motor propelled lead sled conversion that runs and drives and convert it to lithium. I can upgrade components as I go along at whatever pace I choose. There are usually several worthy candidates in the EV Album EV's For Sale section.


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## ga2500ev (Apr 20, 2008)

puddleglum said:


> Thank you all for your replies. Believe me, I fully understand that every car purchase is a bad investment and a new car is probably the absolute worst. Most people, myself included, waste an obscene amount of money on vehicles that they don't really need. I do think cars are a need in our society for most people, but not the kind that most people buy. I foolishly convinced myself that I needed a new car a few years ago. It was one of the worst financial decisions I've ever made. I've regretted it ever since, but it's done and I'll live with the consequences.
> 
> Thing is, I really want an EV, or maybe a plug in hybrid, mostly for all the reasons you guys have just stated. I really don't want to go to all the work to build a car that can't get out of it's own way. I've been lurking, learning and admiring many of your accomplishments for a couple of years now. I just hear all sorts of claims on EV sites saying how much money you can save with one, but when I run the numbers it just doesn't add up. I really appreciate you guys being honest. I think threads like this are good to have because it puts a more accurate perspective on what you are doing. I guess I'm looking for some valid reasons not to give up on another dream in the name of practicality. Keep up the good work and I'll keep watching for now.


It's a false economy because it most of those estimates do not account for the amortization costs of the batteries. It's the trade off of putting $7K worth of gas in a $100 tank or putting $100 worth of electricity in a $7K "tank" of batteries. The problem with the latter is that while you can break up the gas costs over several years, you have to put up the cost of the batteries up front.

Now there's a stability argument that could be made. My opinion is that the fluctuation in gas prices is what drives many drivers crazy. Right now is a perfect example. 10 weeks ago gas was below $3 a gallon in the US. Now it's approaching $4/gal with estimates that it'll be closer to $5 than not by June 1. But there's no easily identifiable reason for the 50/60% fluctuation. It's not cost controllable.

OTOH electricity is relatively stable from a cost standpoint. In fact the cost is almost always regulated by some government entity. So it doesn't arbitrarily change on a day by day basis. So even if one amortizes the cost of batteries, and pays for the electricity, for the most part the costs will be fixed over the long term. Pretty much if you know that 5 yr cost of batteries + electricity is $12K you can bank on it. Not very likely with gas when you don't know what the cost is going to be 2 weeks from now, much less 4 years from now.

Another argument from the DIY perspective is that EVs are relatively simple creations: motor, batteries, controller, monitoring, safety items. So from both a construction and maintenance standpoint, it's easier to put together and maintain an EV over an ICE vehicle. In reality a hard core DIYer could construct a motor from scratch if they really wanted to. Anyone every bore an ICE engine block? 

From the cost standpoint, it's the one reason I keep harping on the capitalization costs of batteries. At the end of the day, it's the big cost center for putting together an EV. I'm hopeful that the A123 20 Ah prismatic pouches going out the back door in China and Korea end up being a long term option right at $1 Ah delivered. It can open the door for widespread EV adpotion.

ga2500ev


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## lowcrawler (Jun 27, 2011)

puddleglum said:


> I've read through this thread and I have to ask,(honest question) if there is no cost savings to be had in going electric, then why do you do it?


It is cheaper -- but you've got to look longer term.

For instance, you can relatively easily build a 40-60 mile pack for under 8k, spend another 5k on various other bits (motor, controller, charger being the most expensive parts) and then whatever your glider costs. That pack will go 3k cycles or so -- at 50 miles per cycle you are looking at 150k before you drop lower than 80% capacity. At $4 gas (and you know it's going to be more), that's 20k in gas, alone. (vs, likely, around 4-5k in electricity costs) So over the course of 150k miles (roughly 10 years) you'll be roughly break-even.

Sell the still-good-but-just-not-quite-as-dense-as-when-new pack as a solar storage bank and you're up quite a bit over a gasser. Repeat (meaning just replace the batteries, not the controller/motor and other bits) and you're up even more... 

It's not a huge savings, but it's simply an 'upfront' cost vs a 'ongoing' cost. Think of it as renting your cable modem vs buying one. Renting is a better deal if you only plan to use their service for a few years... but if you know you're going to have comcast for the next couple decades, buying one will save you a lot.

Also note that we don't actually pay the full cost of our gasoline... 

... and the environmental factors matter to people. People buy organic...


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## lowcrawler (Jun 27, 2011)

Ziggythewiz said:


> You do realize we're currently exporting oil, right? That's why gas has been going up lately.


We are exporting GASOLINE, not oil.

Our problem is that all our refining capacity is concentrated relatively far away from our actual usage.


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## Ziggythewiz (May 16, 2010)

lowcrawler said:


> We are exporting GASOLINE, not oil.
> 
> Our problem is that all our refining capacity is concentrated relatively far away from our actual usage.


Yes, the point is long before gas hits $10 we would not be exporting it. Our net imports aren't even that high, and at $10 demand would be sufficiently reduced that we would be self sufficient.


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## 3tcpower (Dec 16, 2008)

I am a lurker and have found this read very entertaining. I eventually plan to build an EV out of an 80-83 Civic when the time comes.

From my read, a few things seem overlooked.

Wanting 80 miles a day seems a stretch. If you NEED to drive that much, maybe you should re-evaluate your work/living location. Getting rid of dependence is more then changing your car.

EV's have thier place as a stop gap, imo. The waste that will come from batteries will concern me when more vehicles use them. I don't know how much actual waste will come from dead batteries or the act of rebuilding, but this should be a concern anyway.

Also, if you are building a vehicle for concerns of gas shortage, build something that batteries and parts will be available locally or that you can rebuild. What good is a car that can be charged if your batteries die and the cost of gas prevents a reasonable battery price to be delivered?


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## Salty9 (Jul 13, 2009)

It is very unlikely that batteries will be wasted. Last I heard lead batteries were being sold to scrap dealers for decent money. Lithium being more scarce than lead will also be recycled.


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## DJBecker (Nov 3, 2010)

Salty9 said:


> It is very unlikely that batteries will be wasted. Last I heard lead batteries were being sold to scrap dealers for decent money. Lithium being more scarce than lead will also be recycled.


Lead-acid batteries are easy and profitable to recycle. They get tossed into a shredder, and the bits get dumped into a vat. The stuff that floats is skimmed, rinsed off and sold as plastic scrap. (It's mostly polypropylene, and is more valuable than completely random plastic scrap.) The stuff that sinks is dried and put into a crucible where the lead is melted off the plate structure. Most of the lead is recovered in metallic form, ready for immediate use.

In contrast, there is no economic recovery mechanism for lithium cells, or most other types of batteries.


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## lowcrawler (Jun 27, 2011)

http://www.toxco.com/


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