# Homemade charger, I am confused here



## Iowa599 (Dec 9, 2014)

I just want to say, that some of your responses have been confusing, I'm sort of a 'visual' thinker, diagrams=best, 'word-pics'=ok, words only=sucky .

So I'm trying to make a homemade charger. I can run this off a 240v ac outlet. The battery pack is sized (96-144v) to reach an optimal target from the charger (another 12v battery will also be used, i call it my 'system', the ~120v is 'traction'), because in my opinion, I would rather have another 60lb 12V battery than a 10lb inductor/transformer. We'll just assume I'm going for a 120V (lead-acid) pack until someone includes info that prefers another size.

So let's go the 'plain' way first, 240vac:










straight into a rectifier...









(I steal pics too, on this one ignore the numbers)

And straight output, straight to the battery.

So I have seen several ideas, one is obviously an inductor, we'll skip it and return to it later (if we need too).

Capacitors, I have seen some people place these in AC, what do they do there? They are supposed to 'smooth' voltage, but it seems like as soon as they would, it reverses? Series or parallel. I have yet to find an oscilloscope photo of the voltage on the load side as a comparison to the supply side? 

So, lets go to caps on the DC side, after the rectifier, don't my batteries 'act' like a capacitor? I'm sure there are different results of different styles, age, etc...

So finally, I do want to make this 'hybrid'. So I get a 5kW (about) generator, run 240v straight to rectifier, then straight to batteries. I hack the generator engine carburetor throttle control to two solenoids replacing the governor. Now you should have some control of voltage (frequency will be random).

So you set one that kicks on when pack voltage is low, it kicks the throttle open. This increases wattage delivered.

You also set one to high voltage, that kicks it to idle, decreasing wattage. (see Note1)

With neither high nor low tripped, it runs (about) 50% wattage.

Now the sensor(s) that output for high and low are run off a capacitor to 'smooth', remove spikes. I want them to work more on 'rms' than 'peak'



Note1: High and low are also on timers, when kicked ON they stay ON for at least ~5min
when kicked off for ~5min they activate another relay (probably a bistable, that's the easiest way I could think of). 'Hi' kicks run OFF, so it shuts off. 'Lo' kicks run ON, so it can run, and activates starting circuit I will work out later.

Which makes me concerned of 'Lo' and 'Hi', assuming I have 11 lead/acid batteries 10 Traction, 1 System. I have a '120v' system to charge. So...










...so, x10, 105v is dead, 115v is almost dead, I have the 'Lo' turn ON at 115v. It automatically charges when it needs to or load is 'sucking down' voltage, like highway use. Kick 'Hi' ON at like 145v (I figure 14.5v ea. is safe), it is past the top power it stores (127v, 12.7ea), but that way your sure it's full, I think... 

-sub-'Hi' and 'Lo' are ON, it kicks itself OFF, and lights a warning light (easy to do with a couple DPDT relays)

Now the generator starter, it is based off the 'system', which is charged off the other end of the engine (physically), I have no idea how to run an amperage sensor, which is basically a 'sound' measurement electrically (you WANT it to draw ~10a, but NOT less?)...or a sound sensor (microphone, now 105db starter is 105db exhaust?), so maybe I should just go with a 'timer' that can reset. The timer would always run the starter ~3sec, if you get ~13v output after, done (it's running), if you get less than 12v output after, it waits 3 sec and retries? I'm considering to skip this part, just put a 'start' button for the driver/operator.

The generator would probably be a Harbor Freight 'Predator', or a 'Chonda', or a 'Hondur', so I'm not sure how long the starter would last on one...If ya get a motor GEAR drive to the flywheel, I'm sure it's toast. Maybe a chain/belt/thing drive would be better

----------------------

I've pretty much got the chassis designed, I'm just having trouble with electrical. I'm not sure what ya'all do, but I am a (certified, ASE) master automotive technician, so mechanical is easy-as-pie, even electrical ain't bad, but once you get into electronics....Look at that bird, dude! It's right outside my window!....

Also I do prefer to keep my car based with as *simple* as possible parts. Consider it the 'Model T' of the 'New World'....


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## Iowa599 (Dec 9, 2014)

Oh, the motor heat/choke should be a cake-walk, I hook up a random car temp switch to a solenoid so it kicks that on when it's cold, off when hot.

I used a random Ford (1/8-npt, one wire, iirc) switch on a Chevy to flip on the electric fan (from a Dodge) that I used to replace the mechanical radiator fan


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## Iowa599 (Dec 9, 2014)

Oh, and 'SSR'

solid state relay

Some places they can be used, some places I'm not sure of. When I got two systems with a shared ground, they -might- work...IDK...but whatev. I can research any of the capability if you think one (or more) of the relays I have proposed if you think it may be cycling frequently.


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## Iowa599 (Dec 9, 2014)

Me...Again...

This is also based on my guess that Chonda, or Hondur, gens from H-F (hopefully) have a very simple set up.

Frequency is based on RPM, 3,600 RPM (around engine peak HP) for a 2-prong thing generator, gives you 60Hz.

The speed is held mechanically, by the governor (old ones ran off the cooling fan, with a vane that opened the throttle when it fell-lost speed, closed it when it raised-raised speed)

The gen itself is permanent magnet, like a car generator (see 6v systems) NOT electromagnets, like a car alternator.

So the only control for voltage is the amount of electrical load, and thus mechanical load.

--explanation:
to attempt to test this I can use a load that is doesn't care about frequency, like a light bulb

so I start it, test voltage with no load, is it high as hell (prolly perm magnets) or within specs (prolly like a car 'alternator')
Disconnect gov, low RPM should be low voltage, for either. High rpm should be high for perm, same for electro.
Hook up one shitload light bulbs,voltage dropped (perm) or not (electro)
check hi rpm (higher voltage = perm) & low rpm also.

-------------

I could bypass an electo, maybe, but mech pays off. Perhaps even bypass something that controls voltage output, since I don't (think I) have a reason for it.

Mechanical load is generated by electrical load, less electrical resistance = higher amperage, and volts x amps = watts / 747.7 = hp required, more hp requires more air to be burned


Also, the engine *I think* is 'redlined' at 3,600rpm, but the limiter at 4,000rpm. The limiter is part of the ignition module, which is a completely separate electrical system. Well, it is gnd with the 12v, power goes out the dedicated coil that pulses once per pass by the magnet on the rotor, run switch (replace with 'run' relay), coil, plug, gnd. Ground is shared with the 12v system.

I consider this 'spikey voltage' to be a possible anti-sulphation deal. (I hope I am correct)

---------------

also I have considered replacing the governor-solenoids with a small linear actuator, so it's got thousands of positions before it's all the way up or down, just trade the run/stop timers for 'end-of-travel' switches & timers.


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## Iowa599 (Dec 9, 2014)

So, minor thought on this, use a relay on the starter, a house 120vac or 240vac one.

power side

gen out------------------------relay coil----------------variable resistor--------------------gnd
from low voltage switch-----relay switch--+--normally closed to starter
.....................................+---switch open

switch side


may also consider a dpdt relay to click the gen throttle is to half power, if I go with the solenoids for voltage regulation instead of the linear actuator.

I could use a 'balanced' load, a& b sides of the 240v rotor.

which actually a 'flicker' by the solenoid will not really effect durability (esp if both are attached to the lever with a spring), and voltage output will be slowed by the centrifugal force of the engine and generator.


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## Iowa599 (Dec 9, 2014)

Maybe wire a giant, like a 1 farad capacitor, like a 24V (easy to find for car audio) in series with each of the 10 transportation batteries, have them on relays to flip off only when the low voltage sensor flips on, so you have pulses for sulphation. As soon as it bumps to middle/hi voltage (low off) you get the large capacitors back for 'smooth' charging.

Cost effectiveness depends on how many amps come out of a 1F capacitor.

But it should remove the need for ($0.80  ) capacitor to the voltage sensors, they should drag peaks closer to RMS.

Possibly they should also provide current for the transportation controller (motor), but I have no idea what 1F caps/super-caps do in the terms of A/h.


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## PStechPaul (May 1, 2012)

I'll try to answer your questions as simply as I can, but I'm not sure what you are talking about in the later posts with the capacitors and relays.

I know you want to avoid an inductor, but you want current regulation, and that is what inductors do. Capacitors are basically voltage regulators. If you take an AC source, and rectify it, you will get peaks as you show at 1.4 times the RMS value. The AC source will have an internal impedance which will limit the maximum current it will supply, but in most cases it will give 20 times or more than its nominal rating. So an ordinary 20 amp 120V service will produce at least 400 amps into a low resistance/impedance load.

You can think of a 12V battery as a very solid 12V supply with a series resistor of about 0.01 ohms. If you apply 12V to it, the voltages balance, and with no voltage on the resistor, no current flows. If you apply 13V to it, there is one extra volt that is across the 0.01 ohm resistor, and the current will be 100 amps. So you need some way to limit the current. You can use a resistor, but that just dissipates heat, or you can use a transistor circuit as a current limiter, but you will still create lots of heat.

It is possible to limit the current on the AC side without generating heat, but you need to use inductors or capacitors. Either of these has a reactance, or AC impedance, that stores and releases energy rather than using it up as heat. You can figure out the size of these components based on the maximum current to which you want to limit the supply. Suppose you want a 10 amp charger. If your peak AC voltage will be about twice the lowest voltage of the battery, you need an inductor or capacitor that will drop 60 volts at 10 amps. This is an impedance of 60/10 = 6 ohms, and you could use a 6 ohm resistor, but it would dissipate 600 watts. For a capacitor:


```
X = 1 / (2 * PI * F * C) or C = 1 / (2 * PI * F * X) which is 1 / (6.28 * 60 * 6) = 0.00442 farads or 4420 uF.
```
Similarly, for an inductor:


```
X = 2 * PI * F * L or L = X / (2 * PI * F) = 6 / (6.28 * 60) = 0.016 henries or 16 mH.
```
Other considerations are the voltage and current ratings of the capacitor and the inductor. If you will be making an isolated charger, you will need a transformer rated (in this case) for 120V and 10A or 1200 watts, about the size of a microwave oven transformer (MOT). It may be possible to design the transformer with enough inductance to act as a current limiter. This is the principle of "impedance limited" fan motors which can be stalled without drawing excess current. An "MOT" may have similar properties, and if not, it may be possible to cut the laminations to achieve this property. However, doing so will actually reduce the inductance of the primary and it may draw too much line current to work properly. Transformer design is way beyond what you want to get involved in! 

I've probably confused you by this point, but hopefully you can see the need for current limiting and the reason why chargers are not as simple as you would like them to be. Ideally a charger will have good efficiency and power factor, which a simple charger using resistors, inductors, and capacitors will not have.

Good luck!


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## Sunking (Aug 10, 2009)

Iowa not trying to be rude, but as an EE and ham radio operator who has built a many 12 volt DC power supplies and battery chargers, you just need to stop what you are doing. You are going to get hurt or burn something down. I only say this because I care about your personal safety. You don't have a clue what you are doing. Allow me to simplify things for you. 

There are two proven ways to charge a battery of any voltage, but for this discussion I will stick with 12 volt batteries.

1. Today modern approach is switch mode by taking line AC, converting to High Voltage DC, convert to high frequency AC, step down voltage via a transformer, rectify back to DC, and use integrated voltage and current regulators. That is all I am going to say about switch mode because it is way beyond your ability.

2. Is a good ole fashion Boat Anchor approach using a line transformer to take line voltages of 120 or 240 volts Ac and step it down to 12 VAC. You then rectify the 12 VAC to 18 volt DC using a full wave Bridge rectifier. At the output of the rectifier is your filter capacitors and they are sized 1000 ufd per 1 amp of designed charged current. So if you want a 10 amp charger would require 10,000 ufd 20 volt electrolytic capacitors. FWIW they are called boat anchors because of the big heavy transformer used. 

From the filter caps you use one of the many 3-terminal Integrated Circuit regulators that do all the voltage and current regulation. For high current will require an additional bypass transistors. Most designs you can use them as either a power supply or battery Float charger with full regulation you can short out with no problem as long as there is not a battery connected. 

Very simple to construct, safe, efficient, and cost effective without a lot of complicated math. Here is a *web site* to walk you through some of the various transformer/rectifier/filter designs. For the schematics with regulators *here is over 100 designs*. Just about everyone revolves around the *LM7812* or many others like it. *Here are* some 10 amp 12 volt designs with full part list.

Now for the kicker you will not like one little bit. You can buy really good 12 volt charger for a lot less money than you can build one for.


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## Iowa599 (Dec 9, 2014)

Thanks, I'll do a bit of work with it, as good as I can....

_I know you want to avoid an inductor, but you want current regulation, and that is what inductors do. Capacitors are basically voltage regulators. If you take an AC source, and rectify it, you will get peaks as you show at 1.4 times the RMS value. The AC source will have an internal impedance which will limit the maximum current it will supply, but in most cases it will give 20 times or more than its nominal rating. So an ordinary 20 amp 120V service will produce at least 400 amps into a low resistance/impedance load._

Ah, the entire reason I was considering my hack...

generators are made of coils, basically inductors (hence the name) swung around magnets..

But these spin as quickly as they can.
-imagine a rock on a rope, how fast? Now two rocks?-
I'm sure it causes heat n stuff, they get hot, also rated in kW (or can be, cooling efficiency)...

So your getting a gen rated at 5kW you can produce (continually), can that be used for ANY voltage*amperage?

-say your cruisin on the highway, and the batteries are 1/2 dead so it makes the system drop to 120v (  ) so your charger kicks all 5kW at 120v continuous (we will explore my cap idea in a few)

5000 / 120 = 41.6A

then you stop driving (well, it, if you just to walk off you may move your legs fast) so your voltage kicks up to 130v...

5000 / 130 = 38.46

That almost seems like too many amps, like the coils may melt...

so we move on to mechanical....


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## Iowa599 (Dec 9, 2014)

so we move on to mechanical....

Ahh, yes, well considering, what I just said about them, kW is often used by our upside-down friends, for HP, 747.7W per HP. So I can assume I have a Chonda 13hp engine, which converts to 9720W. Can make 7000W with 8250W peak. I have 2720W of waste, which that...brings into question _efficiency_...but that's manageable, I think.


so it takes air (& fuel) to make HP, or kW. What if I tap the voltage sensors, for the generator-throttle-controlled-output, some way to limit kW in(air)-to back off kW mechanically-to back off kW electrically-

brb on this...


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## PStechPaul (May 1, 2012)

An AC generator is very much like an automotive alternator, as both use a field winding on the rotor, driven with DC through slip rings, and a stator which produces an AC voltage. In the case of the automotive alternator, it generates three phase, which is rectified, and produces a fairly smooth DC with about 5% ripple, and that is perfectly fine for charging the battery. The alternator is also made rather cheaply and is inefficient, but this is used to advantage because it becomes more of a current source, and the current is regulated by means of the regulator, which adjusts the field current.

A 5 kW generator has a rated power of 5000 watts, which just means that it can safely provide 41.7 amps at 120 VAC. But it is designed for a solid voltage output, and it will push several hundred amps into a heavy load or short circuit. The output voltage is regulated by adjusting the field current, and it is designed to keep the voltage constant over a varying load.

It may be possible to adjust the field current based on current, rather than voltage, and that would make it more suitable for battery charging. But being single phase, the rectified waveform will still be pulses, and charging will take place only when the voltage is high enough to exceed the battery voltage. 

All sorts of things are possible, but you really need a solid understanding of electronics and electromagnetism to be able to build a safe, efficient, and effective charger. Even if you use an isolated 12-15V supply, you will still be dealing with possibly very high currents that can cause arcing, welding, and rupture of batteries that can hurt you with lead shrapnel and sulfuric acid. A 120V pack adds the danger of electrocution. And even the capacitors you are considering can explode with deadly force.



















http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net/threads/65163-Capacitors-go-pop?highlight=capacitor


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## Iowa599 (Dec 9, 2014)

_You can use a resistor, or you can use a transistor_

ya...

_but that just dissipates heat_

werd...

_It is possible to limit the current on the AC side without generating heat, but you need to use inductors or capacitors. Either of these has a reactance, or AC impedance, that stores and releases energy rather than using it up as heat. _

/\ right here is where it mostly confuses me /\ do they go parallel, or series? and what's the difference between those? 


I am still interested in the MOT idea you shared, mostly contemplating, I'll start working it out when I finish my idea.

First I gotta touch down on my capacitor idea, so I got 10 batteries, These are wired in parallel with each...










so, how about...
those are on relays, each, i guess...just to disconnect once-in-a-while for sulfation peaks? Not sure if it's helpful, or hurtful, or don't even matter 'cause the whole idea sucks

Anywho, I'm still contemplating charger sensors, 
so I want a temperature switch on the gen, an amperage switch on the output, and two voltage switches, low & high...
[workin on that, brb]


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## dcb (Dec 5, 2009)

proceed at your own risk of course, but there has been much discussion about using run capacitors for simple chargers. They have crappy power factor so you cannot get full power out of the wall, but they are cheap and simple and do a good job of limiting power, the first ones were just a timer feeding a run capacitor feeding a bridge rectifier feeding a battery, with a voltmeter to keep an eye on the battery.

I started looking at controlling one with a ssr and a microcontroller, but have since thought it would be a good distraction and investment to understand magnetic components better (as they can be cheap, and small). But *if* you understand what they are saying and need something now, then it is worth a look. But lead acid chargers for your voltage range are plenty available (and you should be reading up on lithium), so...

Here is the original thread: http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showthread.php/variable-voltage-battery-charger-48691.html

it can charge up to a 170 volt battery on 120 wall power, up to 340 volt battery on 240 wall power (single phase)










Heed all warnings, you sound like you know enough to be dangerous, but I respect your desire to learn.


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## PStechPaul (May 1, 2012)

I assume you are thinking about 1 farad capacitors such as these, which are about $30 each:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/IMC-Audio-1...ar_Audio_Video_Capacitors&hash=item5d2f022d67

A capacitor like that will only store a very small amount of energy, much less than the battery, and might only help for very short bursts of charging or discharging. 1 uF at 12V is 72 watt-seconds, while the 100 A-h battery is 1200 watt-hours. The only reason for such large capacitors on the 12V supply of an audio system is to supply a short burst of current, perhaps 100 amps, for a few milliseconds. It would be located close to the amplifier so that the current will have a short path and low impedance which results in better audio quality.

You can get a 12V 6A charger for about $25:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/12V-6A-Car-...US_Rechargeable_Batteries&hash=item4180ad3652

It is difficult to explain electronic concepts without knowing what you know, or by starting with the absolute fundamentals. You need a firm grasp of the concepts of voltage, current, power, resistance, and series and parallel connections. I suggest you start by going through a tutorial with simple lessons that progress from the basics to a point where you can understand what you are trying to do and how your ideas do not make sense, as far as I can tell.


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## Iowa599 (Dec 9, 2014)

Wow, a lot of replies! It'll take me a minute!

-just see a need to add this because of everyone's concerns

recognize this?









Besides enjoying cars, I also worked for Acciona, as an electrical tech in manufacturing (until the company ditched USA  ). We built 1.5MW wind turbines (and I went to wind parks for jobs, that's in Glacier Park, Montana), from the ground up, literally.

-so I do understand electricity, the pitfalls & mountains, however your concerns/warnings are helpful

------------------------------

12v chargers-yes, I have explored this option, I am still interested, but I am _HOPING_ that I have found a lighter (weight, not necessarily the most efficient)

--------------------------------

Damn, though...generators use field coils? How-the-f is that regulated?
Here I was hoping that it was permanent-magnet type.

/\ this is my reason fer calling 'house generators' more like 'car generators', perm magnets. Of course, they make A/C, like a 'car alternator' without the diodes.

I need to spend some time on how larger gen's have the field reg'd....

---------------

and finally, I'm working on a diagram, hopefully with my 'regulation' system, I should have that ready in a few...


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## Iowa599 (Dec 9, 2014)

Aight, 










I redesigned my solenoid system (which y'all have never seen)

-basically you go

|-back-|-S1-|-S2-|-throttle

kind setup like a 2-step process:

over 60A -OR- 75*C it kicks one stage

-and-

over 40A -OR- 125*C it kicks one stage

It kicks both down if you get both amperage high
OR both temps high 
OR get a the lower temp AND the lower amperage
I'm working out somekinda fail safe mode that both on should turn off the gen, but I might have to send that to the timer in case it cools down, or somethin

I did like my perm mag thought better, now researching how that field coil works. That idea was made without a field control, so it might all change, or not, once I find this out.

I am still very interested in the capacitor-in-ac idea, but I really need to see a diagram or oscilloscope pic. WTF does that do? How the hell does it bump voltage?

I know that my '10 caps' version might not help driving, I more used it too take care of ac -> dc created 'spikes'


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## Iowa599 (Dec 9, 2014)

Oh, the DPST-CO, aka: dual point-single throw-center off, I added for a simple 'override' switch, basically 'auto--off--on'

I threw that in more as an example, I might have more, for convenience, or less since I carry a set of tools, I guess.


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## Iowa599 (Dec 9, 2014)

generator throttle, my mechanical-electrical control 










This dual-'shortening-when-on' solenoids. I have designed this several ways, change leverage positions and you can ride 'neutral' with both off and them get signals 1-for hi-OR-1-for lo, 'lengthen-when-on' 'noids, basically any way you want with a little electrical or mechanical work Macgyvering.


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## Iowa599 (Dec 9, 2014)

Random research....

http://manuals.harborfreight.com/manuals/68000-68999/68530.pdf

...later...(or a few minutes, lol, idk)


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## PStechPaul (May 1, 2012)

http://www.electricneutron.com/generator-2/automatic-voltage-regulator-for-generator/

http://www.electricneutron.com/generator-2/basic-of-automatic-voltage-regulator/

http://portable.generatorguide.net/avr.html










http://www.generatorguide.net/howgeneratorworks.html

http://www.animations.physics.unsw.edu.au/jw/electricmotors.html


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## Iowa599 (Dec 9, 2014)

You are correct, there really is a field (of course, prly)

might be able to hack it cheaper...

made a new pic, afters days of searching I have finally found, er, whatev. I hacked a few from things like PDFs finally...










aux- blue
aux-blue

I do not know wtf this does.

-----------

red-field
white-field

You should be able to hack this this with V-regs, or resistors, I'm sure that would be simple...if you knew what it did...

-----------

green-stator sensor
white-ditto

again, I do not know what they do...

luckily, I have a friend that works at harbor-freight, so I'll stop by for a look. 
Unless someone here knows?

I'm thinking my homemade/ghettofab might work. Why even mess with crap after it is done, do it beforehand.


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## PStechPaul (May 1, 2012)

You could probably replace the AVR with a voltage regulator from a vehicle alternator. Unfortunately the AC generator is single phase, so you will only be able to regulate the average current, and the voltage peaks may be too high. You might have to "bite the bullet" or "jump the shark" or something, and add an inductor (and maybe a capacitor as well) but it would be a worthy endeavor, and probably very useful for others who might want an ICE powered battery charger. However, if you are really adventurous, you might be able to rewind the stator to three phase. Some people here have rewound large motors, and a generator should not be too different. You could choose the wire size and number of turns to get the specific current and voltage you want to match the battery pack.

I have an old 4 kW generator with a pretty much junk 8 HP horizontal shaft B&S engine, and it might be fun (and useful) to make a three phase generator. I have a 10 HP Craftsman vertical shaft riding mower engine that I might be able to resurrect, or I can get a new horizontal shaft engine for a couple hundred. But I'll probably never actually complete such a project...


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## dcb (Dec 5, 2009)

if there is a way to get fairly balanced three phase or even 90 degree out 2 phase from that generator then you will have much less ripple on the rectified output. aux might be like an interpole? does it have brushes? Disregard if it has a commutator too, muck with the interpoles if that is what they are.

does this regulator plug into your generator normally?

What are you going to do with the gas generator?!?


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## Iowa599 (Dec 9, 2014)

PStechPaul said:


> You could probably replace the AVR with a voltage regulator from a vehicle alternator.


I like this hack, but I am unsure of what kinda voltage it is setup for, or how to 'fix' this...

_Unfortunately the AC generator is single phase, so you will only be able to regulate the average current, and the voltage peaks may be too high. You might have to "bite the bullet" or "jump the shark" or something, and add an inductor (and maybe a capacitor as well) but it would be a worthy endeavor, and probably very useful for others who might want an ICE powered battery charger._

Yeah, I am still 'defiant in refusing' a capacitor/inductor...

_However, if you are really adventurous, you might be able to rewind the stator to three phase. Some people here have rewound large motors, and a generator should not be too different. You could choose the wire size and number of turns to get the specific current and voltage you want to match the battery pack._

Lol, yeah, I might even be able to...but I really do not want to. I also don't know how you would pull a 3-phase out...










random: is the 'field' surrounding it, or spinning in it (my pic)?

but more importantly, that 'I' now becomes an 'X', so it sounds like it will need a new rotor, or something.

But still, I would like to make this a 'hack-job'. You start getting into rewinding coils, that's _custom_.

Now, I am assuming that your v-reg controls generator output by -regulating- field current flow....

Now I'm considering using a few resistors to regulate flow to the field from the rotor back through the field. But that makes me think, 'how the hell can you spin a non-magnet, to make power, to turn it into a mag, but you have to have a mag to make power...'

So if this will work, say I got 2 parallel resistors feeding the field. A (guessing here) 30ohm and a 50ohm. Then those have switches, so you get a resistor, or you get nothing. I see this as a 'variable' version:

both off: OFF 
50 on: LOW
30 on: MEDIUM
both on, 18.75ohm: HIGH

Now I kinda want to replace the switches, with relays. But how the hell do you use to trip those relays? 

Maybe if I have one on voltage, one on amperage?

(in this case 'relay' may be an SSR, at least. LOTS of cycling predicted, plus add a large capacitor to the field to smooth it's output)


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## Iowa599 (Dec 9, 2014)

_does this regulator plug into your generator normally?_

no, I don't have one (yet?), I believe that's a Chonda version though.

_What are you going to do with the gas generator?!?_

I used to race electric cars...










...it would actually go ~40 miles in one hr (races were 'whoever gets furthest in 1 hour, wins'). I want another. Problem is, that only could go that far cause it was a li'l bit small (actually, even the frame I made from aluminum, so VERY LIGHT). So I want an electric, with a charger strapped to the back, so a 'hybrid'... I figure somethin like ~50 miles in one day would get me anywhere.


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## Iowa599 (Dec 9, 2014)

-for those wondering about the car-

We used Kelly controller, with a Motenergy motor (whatever their old name was), on two car-lookin deep cycles from Interstate Batteries, so a 24V system (on a motor & cont designed for 48v, we had 24v per rules for Electrathon)

That car topped out at ~46mph, we did use only one gear. Bicycle-retrofit, but we would change the gearing for the track.

The brakes are Haynes hydraulic disc.

It had 20" 'hoops' on a hub designed for 24"/26" 'hoops', which was an interesting fitment. But once we got tires setup for speed/load they would usually last ~3hr. One track had many corners, so one tire went 1hr 45 min, which made the 2nd race suck...

We did 2-to-3 races on a 'race day' (we would change batteries for each), depending on the course administration.

[edit]and the body:
that car was 'unique' more of a test bed,










Most of our cars had the batteries in the back, that we put them in the front. So the nose cone is fiberglass, the rest is lexan. It has a lexan windscreen/cabin cover/HEAT generating thing. Hense the 'gap' we added between the nose and 'hood', get some air, mang! That was a HOT (as in, temperature, also style  ) ride!


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## Iowa599 (Dec 9, 2014)

workin on my new idea still, anyone know what the 'aux' winding does?

on the field i should have (per possibly the wrong instructions) ~5A (max), which depends on voltage, but the off max 100vdc @ 85 vac where it gets a max input of 100vac? Is this from the aux windings?

The terminology must show their, 'country of origin', or more likely, how dumb I am.


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## dcb (Dec 5, 2009)

40 mile range is perfectly doable without a generator in a passenger vehicle. Maybe invest some time in learning newer battery technologies (i.e. lifepo4) and charging methods IMHO. But if you want better DC out of a generator then get a 3 phase generator (or learn how to rewind yours), you will have much less need for caps or inductors with polyphase. If you took the two main stator coil groups and split them into 4 (2 separate circuits) and fed each into its own bridge you would get 2 phase 90 degrees out and twice the frequency.










as a starting point for a charger or supplimental DC source, it is way better than dropping to 0 volts and slower frequency. You might even consider repurposing an alternator or two since they are usually 3 phase stators *and come with rectifiers and can put out a few volts, though they are not terribly efficient (but neither is your generator, even before you connect it to anything, it is probably in the %70 range).

But your goals are perfectly attainable without resorting to dino-juice it seems also.


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## dcb (Dec 5, 2009)

note the smaller winding 90 degrees out in the previous picture, that is the aux, or the exciter winding in the schematic paul posted, is my guess. Which appears to provide power to the field and regulator circuit (through a bridge rectifier)


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## PStechPaul (May 1, 2012)

Some food for thought:

http://www.dieselserviceandsupply.com/Generator_Phase_Conversions.aspx

http://physicsgems.blogspot.com/2013/03/ac-generator.html

http://www.eslpk.com/download/custo...n Three-Phase And Single Phase Generators.pdf

http://www.eng-tips.com/viewthread.cfm?qid=346823

You can buy a three phase 13 kW generator head for about $1800:
http://www.temcoindustrialpower.com/products/Generator_Heads/GG0082.html

Or get a complete unit on eBay:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/MULTIQUIP-GENERATOR-SINGLE-AND-THREE-PHASE-GDB-4001-/171575379577

A three phase synchronous motor might work as a generator:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Baumuller-N...e-Phase-Synchronous-Servo-Motor-/251535787161
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Fadal-R-B-8LS-Three-phase-Synchronous-Motor-/140570039762

You might even be able to run two single phase generator heads with the shafts aligned at 120 degrees to get a delta-connected three phase source. 

Here is a stator from small FHP single phase motor I rewound for three phase. It's really not very difficult. And you might get a motor shop to do it for about $500:


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## Iowa599 (Dec 9, 2014)

wow, 3-phase is strange/cool...

Most of my fear of re-winding comes from the wire. Enameled insulation, if you scratch it you might get a short circuit. If they would 'paint' it black I *might* be up to the trouble, but when it's basically clear.....

That job looks like it came out nicely! I used to be able to turn coils, not sure if I still can (traumatic brain injury 'cause I got hit by a car and lost ~5sq of skull about 1yr ago). Of course, when I did turn them they were for fun (NOT efficient, at all) so rubber insulation wire, normal 'car' stuff.

Also, I thought about using alternators, but theirs still a major problem, I would like to charge the pack in series, to keep the 'transportation' possible. So how do I hack the voltage? the reg? or remove diodes so you get a/c, then use a transformer, then diodes? Or wire 10 alternators in series, which creates another prob, the housing is gnd, so mount them on separate (!!) panels?

I'm still trying to figure out what the 'Aux' coils are supposed to be, btw. Sometimes their called 'exciter' coils, in which case they are drawn to ~12v, they seem to run to the engine? and I thought that end was to be all 'generator', most have 12v & ignition spinning off the other end, the flywheel.

Even if the aux are to the field for power...so you spin a coil to make power, past an electromagnet, that gets power from the coil...So which comes first? The chicken or the egg?

random: remembered the old name of Motenergy, Lynch (sp?), I think. We got 'em from Britain, iirc, and had 'em 'cryotreated' to perfect efficiency. We put one on a small Dynojet (brand of dyno, awesome 'hydro' powered brake), he could dyno & stall a 900cc, 2-stroke, 3-cyl, snowmobile engine that powered a pavement-tearing dragster (looked like a Top Fuel drag rail), but he couldn't stall ours.


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## Iowa599 (Dec 9, 2014)

Oh, and the thing about switching battery types...

I'm sure that NiMH, Li-ion, or whatev, are better. No doubt, you get more power (Ah) for less weight. The primary reason I'm sticking with them is that I can get L/A deep cycles for real cheap, new. 50% off if I go used.

This is my attempt at a 'Locost', which is a homemade version of a 'Lotus 7'. They are called Locost, as-in, Low-Cost. They are primarily made from 1" square tube steel, and the 'body' is more screwed on sheet metal. I have seen them powered with about every engine made (RX7 wankles, Honda I4 fwd-made-rwd w/ 'Yota trans, ford/chevy/dodge V8). Since I have changed the design a bit, to replace the original A-arm front end/solid axle rear with VW Beetle (not 'new beetle', that thing sucks, oh I'm also a VW certified technician) trans & suspension, and the engine space modified for batteries.










So, anyone interested in this, 

dimension: 1 pixel per 1/16" / 16 pixels per inch
tires-175/90-15 (I think, should be OEM vw beetle)

It looks kinda like a 'Model T' pickup, the way I see it, the bed is space for my dog. Generator hangs off the back and the hood line is taller, so now you have a 'trunk'.

I call my edition the 'Locust' (If anyone spots a hood ornament). It shouldn't be too hard to make, probably easier than making the (heavy) modifications to most production cars I have worked with.


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## Iowa599 (Dec 9, 2014)

Forgot about this, my other hack option, instead of rectified 240vac, do dual 120vac (actually probly seperate rectifiers, then joined, cause one of those cheap things failing)

That way I may have a more appropriate voltage. Keep in mind, I can run anything from 96-144v (8 to 12 batteries). I would like to avoid all extra pieces, like a transformer.

This brings up another prob, I am thinking I might have to hack that voltage controller. The reason for my amperage/temp throttle cut was to allow cooling, if needed, and prevent heating. But once your input power (throttle, watts/hp) goes down, your output still gets 240Vac, which still needs current, so the once warm part, makes up, resulting in a hot part.

So I need the throttle idea tied, somehow, to wattage output.

Maybe, I say the 'screw throttle', I leave the mechanical governor in place. In place of the original voltage controller, change my solenoids to relays, applying supply to the field (see my previous post about resistors).

I've got a few idea's on that, maybe I go with the 120vac dual setup (though I am unsure how this will effect it mechanically). So I got one 'controller' hooked up to monitor voltage, the other amperage. That cuts power, temporarily, only when A or V is exceeded, on a timer (~0.5s so it cycles, SSR probably needed again). I'm sure that amp side will be acceptable when it hit's fully charged, but voltage may go skyhigh. Givin this, it almost needs a 'backup' voltage sensor to actually shut the gen off.

So I'm still working out a kill circuit for this.


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## dcb (Dec 5, 2009)

lose the internal combustion engine and get back to me  Seriously you are way overthinking the generator and you can simply cobble together a generator and charger after the fact, but focus on the EV part a bit more, like how much battery for a given range and driving conditions and whatnot. Internal combustion engines suck, that isn't an electric car, wrong forum.


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## Iowa599 (Dec 9, 2014)

dcb said:


> lose the internal combustion engine and get back to me  Seriously you are way overthinking the generator and you can simply cobble together a generator and charger after the fact, but focus on the EV part a bit more, like how much battery for a given range and driving conditions and whatnot. Internal combustion engines suck, that isn't an electric car, wrong forum.


Already thought about range/batteries/Ah/etc...

Now I want to build a car, and my idea is more like a 2-seat gokart, which brings about the problem of how many batteries does it need, because that is fairly important in size.

Also, don't think I added this, I wanted a 5kW, which I discovered has no electric start or system. I can 'make one fit', at a cost of ~$125, or I can get the 7kW, for ~$150 more, with electric start, and a 12v charging system. Which would be why my idea has another 12v deep cycle, run lights/radio/etc...

Also on the generator, it is a 'hack'. Really, I think I could attach it's frame with a few clamps.

Right now though, I have so many questions involving it's construction, I almost feel like buying a gen and stopping by the Advance Auto I used to work at. They sell ~10/week and take the 'old', I might just have to stop in & hook them up to see what happens (besides awesome sparks  )


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## dcb (Dec 5, 2009)

Ok, well why are we talking about the gas powered generator so damn much? Are you building an electric vehicle or not? Or is this diyhalfassedhybridcar.com?


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## Iowa599 (Dec 9, 2014)

I'd like to, still trying to find a vdubb.

Could also use a sandrail, if you happen to find one. I've seen 'em here for $1k and less, but the owners have yet to get back to me.

I will not pay over $1.5k, I don't need an engine. Also, I would prefer an older one. With wide-5, stock wheels, and no IRS in the rear. I don't care if the body is rusted off, or gone, just needs to have working: 

suspension
steering
trans

Working gauges (especially speedometer) are a plus.


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## Iowa599 (Dec 9, 2014)

more work on the charging thing...this is assuming I hack the v-reg, now I'm hoping that running the field coil on wattage gives me wattage out the charger, as in, it doesn't matter how many volts or amps I get. It just guarantees I get watts. 100V/10A or 10V/100A, does not matter, either way I get 1000W?










A 120v system, rectified to DC, you should get 120v rms, with peaks near 165v, right?

Run 120v pack, that get's a 'charged' level of 144v.
So like 10F with the batteries ought to bring those peaks down a bit...(how much? idk)

So if I set Trip1 to ~135v
and Trip2 to ~140v

Trip1 will knock it down to 1/2 power
then Trip2 brings out the 2nd half

When Trip1&Trip2 remain off for 2 seconds then he hits Trip3
Then after 2 minutes it hits Trip4
Trip4, and shuts the gen off.

--------------

Or, when burning amps with no charging...
Trip1, and Trip2 click, then Trip3 after 2 seconds. Then Trip4 after 2 minutes, that clicks the gen on, then Trip5 runs the starter for 5 seconds.

--------------------
Most 'discreet' products (resistors / zeners / etc...) when it comes to Trips# do needed figured out. So any suggestions would be helpful, but otherwise I'll keep doing math. I guess I need to research resistance of field coil & voltage drop req'd, to think about resistor size.

--------------

That ought to work out...right? The starter is not planned out well, I know. 1/2 the time I'm sure it will need 5.1 seconds to start, the other 1/2 it starts in 0.1 seconds and grinds for 4.9 seconds... I did draw in a 'manual override of sorts (no, not a rope ).

--------------

If ya'll think this looks like it might work...or if I really need to change something...I'd like to keep working on design while I wait on a Vdub to pop up for sale.


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## PStechPaul (May 1, 2012)

I think you still don't know how a capacitor reacts to voltage, or a battery, for that matter. With capacitors across the batteries, they will hold the voltage of the battery, but when you first connect them, they will draw a lot of current, which depends on the internal voltage of the battery and the combined series internal resistance of the battery and capacitor, as well as external wiring. This will be likely be about 0.01 ohms, so you will get a surge of as much as 1200 amps or more when you connect the uncharged capacitor.

Now think about what happens when you apply a rectified single phase voltage to the battery/resistor parallel combination. While the voltage is less than the battery pack, the rectifiers block the current that would otherwise be drained from the batteries, but when it becomes greater, current will flow from the generator through the diodes and into the pack. 

The 120V 5000W generator is capable of 41 amps continuous, and may be able to produce a short-circuit current of ten times that, or 410 amps. This means that the generator has an internal impedance of about 120V/410A or 0.29 ohms. The current that will be drawn by the battery and capacitor will depend on the difference between the applied voltage and the pack voltage, and the total impedance. The capacitors probably have a much lower internal resistance (ESR) than the batteries, so they will draw more current. But as they charge up, the current will reduce, and just how much depends on the rate of rise (dV/dt) of the voltage. But the real problem will be the batteries, as they cannot charge to the peak voltage, and soon will draw a lot of current.

So the ten 12V batteries have a combined series internal resistance of 0.1 ohms, and the generator perhaps 0.29, for a total of 0.39. When the applied voltage reaches its peak of 165 volts, there is a difference of 165-120 or 45 volts, on 0.39 ohms, and current will be 115 amps, which is about 1C for 120 A-h batteries. That may or may not be acceptable. Lithium cells can accept higher charge levels, but lead-acid I think are best charged at about 0.1-0.2C, or 12-24 amps.

As for using voltage sensing relays to adjust field current according to the generator output voltage, that will only work on a long-term average basis, and cannot sense the high voltage peaks and react in time to do anything about it. The relay will take about 30 mSec to operate, or two cycles, and the field current also cannot change quickly, because of the inductance of the winding. This is why an inductor is the preferred means of regulating current.

You might be able to make a reasonable inductor using a MOT. There is a low voltage high current winding that might be used as an inductor, but it may be even better to strip out the high voltage winding and use as many turns as possible of #10 AWG wire to handle 30 amps or more. You may need to experiment with leaving or removing the shorted winding that is present in most MOTs for use with the HV doubler, and you can also adjust the inductance by cutting a gap in the core. Here is some info:

http://wiki.4hv.org/index.php/Microwave_oven_transformer

















http://wn.com/pwm__resonant_inductance_with_microwave_oven_transformer (probably not applicable, but interesting)

http://www.electro-tech-online.com/threads/welder-made-with-microwave-oven-transformer.126607/

http://www.electronicspoint.com/threads/how-to-make-a-homemade-inductor.31164/

http://wimphot.com/M2VTWFhuS09XNWsz (used for battery charger)

I think it would be very helpful to your understanding to do some simple experiments with an MOT or other inductors (as well as capacitors, resistors, and other components). But be careful with inductors, as they can produce very high voltages, whereas capacitors can produce very high currents, and in combination can produce resonance where voltage can build up until it breaks down the insulation or air gap with a huge arc and destruction and danger. 

This has been interesting, and I'm glad to try to help, but it seems you are for some reason intent on using capacitors and other components, and NOT inductors, and I don't think I can offer any more suggestions unless you begin to understand what you are trying to do and why I think it is not going to work.


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## Iowa599 (Dec 9, 2014)

_This will be likely be about 0.01 ohms, so you will get a surge of as much as 1200 amps or more when you connect the uncharged capacitor._

yeah, that's why I've eliminated my relay switch idea for caps, you are half-right though, I don't understand half-of-results...

_Now think about what happens when you apply a rectified single phase voltage to the battery/resistor parallel combination. While the voltage is less than the battery pack, the rectifiers block the current that would otherwise be drained from the batteries, but when it becomes greater, current will flow from the generator through the diodes and into the pack. _

yup, less voltage get's you no benefits

_The 120V 5000W generator is capable of 41 amps continuous, and may be able to produce a short-circuit current of ten times that, or 410 amps. This means that the generator has an internal impedance of about 120V/410A or 0.29 ohms._

that brings around another cause/effect, the inductance of the generator windings, right? I mean, you can not make more watts from nothing, it would require a 'hotter' field, which it sounds like there was some power being stored somewhere....

_The current that will be drawn by the battery and capacitor will depend on the difference between the applied voltage and the pack voltage, and the total impedance. The capacitors probably have a much lower internal resistance (ESR) than the batteries, so they will draw more current. But as they charge up, the current will reduce, and just how much depends on the rate of rise (dV/dt) of the voltage. But the real problem will be the batteries, as they cannot charge to the peak voltage, and soon will draw a lot of current._

That provides an excellent example of my desire to cut my peaks back, that's why I added capacitors. Though I'm not sure how much they help.

_So the ten 12V batteries have a combined series internal resistance of 0.1 ohms, and the generator perhaps 0.29, for a total of 0.39. When the applied voltage reaches its peak of 165 volts, there is a difference of 165-120 or 45 volts, on 0.39 ohms, and current will be 115 amps, which is about 1C for 120 A-h batteries. That may or may not be acceptable. Lithium cells can accept higher charge levels, but lead-acid I think are best charged at about 0.1-0.2C, or 12-24 amps._

Aight, I can make that happen, I think. The 'shunt' switched relays supply power to the field coil through resistors, maybe I have to go with a potentiometer to fine tune it, but your still ending on the same effect, a resistor. Less watts in = less watts out, right? I guess I'll revise that drawing a bit. But that's fairly relevant, right? (more on this for what you said next)

_As for using voltage sensing relays to adjust field current according to the generator output voltage, that will only work on a long-term average basis, and cannot sense the high voltage peaks and react in time to do anything about it. The relay will take about 30 mSec to operate, or two cycles, and the field current also cannot change quickly, because of the inductance of the winding. This is why an inductor is the preferred means of regulating current._

Well, yeah, my relays are 'sorta' voltage regulated. I used shunts, which are 'supposed' to measure amperage, I've basically set up to switch based on the RMS voltage-drop of the shunt (see capacitor & zener diodes), which should be based on amperage and voltage, or watts, I think. So voltage should still peak, a bit, but once it all comes up (V &/or A) it will click off.

_You might be able to make a reasonable inductor using a MOT. There is a low voltage high current winding that might be used as an inductor, but it may be even better to strip out the high voltage winding and use as many turns as possible of #10 AWG wire to handle 30 amps or more. You may need to experiment with leaving or removing the shorted winding that is present in most MOTs for use with the HV doubler, and you can also adjust the inductance by cutting a gap in the core. Here is some info:
_

researching...

_be careful with inductors, as they can produce very high voltages, whereas capacitors can produce very high currents, and in combination can produce resonance where voltage can build up until it breaks down the insulation or air gap with a huge arc and destruction and danger._

awesome! check. Safety First!

_This has been interesting, and I'm glad to try to help, but it seems you are for some reason intent on using capacitors and other components, and NOT inductors, and I don't think I can offer any more suggestions unless you begin to understand what you are trying to do and why I think it is not going to work._

The main reason I'm avoiding most inductors & similar is weight, I'm a weight whore. I cut 65lb off one of my bikes, every ounce was worth it for performance (on a 33hp bike  )

One of these reasons is that often I read one article about them, then I find another that comes to a result that still aligns 'with thought' but defers when they get to results...the whole thing I need is a picture of a oscilloscope (or similar). Like I said, i'm a picture person, either they don't know what they're saying, or I interpret it wrong...


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## dcb (Dec 5, 2009)

add a shunt downstream of the rectifiers, and an rc circuit to average the current (battery chemistry cares about average current, not rms), put a voltmeter on your averager to infer current. Control the current with the throttle/rpms of the engine, done. (again, not targeting efficiency here)


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## Iowa599 (Dec 9, 2014)

Random thought:

Your mainly concerned because peak may be too high, right, what if I stepped to 11 batteries, my transportation electrical system can still take it, (was 120v rms/144v peak system) so if I go to 11 that gets me a 132v / 165v peak...

That concerns me the opposite way, now I may not have enough power, before I thought I might have too much.

Hence my thought about my hack to change the voltage regulator to a 'diy wattage regulator'


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## Iowa599 (Dec 9, 2014)

dcb said:


> add a shunt downstream of the rectifiers, and an rc circuit to average the current (battery chemistry cares about average current, not rms), put a voltmeter on your averager to infer current. Control the current with the throttle/rpms of the engine, done. (again, not targeting efficiency here)


YES

that's pretty much what I got, sorta, I decided (well, my last try) to regulate the amperage (shunts) out by controlling the amperage through the field.

Plus using caps to 'store' extra voltage for 1/120th sec and release it as current back to the battery, then restart.

The throttle will stay where it's at, sorta, being held @ ~3600 rpm that is where peak HP shows up.


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## dcb (Dec 5, 2009)

Iowa599 said:


> The throttle will stay where it's at, sorta, being held @ ~3600 rpm that is where peak HP shows up.


the rpm controls the output peak voltage also, and gives you a single variable control, it is too easy, you really shouldn't waive it off since you seem to be trying to throttle back the output (well, you don't need peak hp then do you?)


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## Iowa599 (Dec 9, 2014)

_the rpm controls the output peak voltage also, and gives you a single variable control, it is too easy, you really shouldn't waive it off since you seem to be trying to throttle back the output (well, you don't need peak hp then do you?)
_

Perhaps....

So, if I make one back the field power,
--based on current

and one back the throttle
--based on voltage

then one cut the power completely, when both are running for a couple minutes

then one stop the generator when /\ is running for a couple minutes

I'll work on that...


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## Iowa599 (Dec 9, 2014)

the more I think about it, I think if I have a capacitor feeding field, and a the engines delayed RPM response, I've basically just made an 'analog-to-digital' converter. 

Turning digital electrical signals, ON or OFF, into a physical creation.

You don't just turn 3600 rpm to 1800 rpm, instantly! It will take ~3 sec to hit 1800 with load if you turn it down, you get to 3000 rpm in 1/2 second, another 1/2 sec back up, 1/2 sec back down...

Might be manageable, probably do that mechanically, I have a few spare springs...


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## PStechPaul (May 1, 2012)

Just found a pretty good video on inductor design :

http://wimphot.com/M2I4V29sLVg0dEUz

I still don't understand your reasoning for voltage/current/power sensing, and I won't even try to do so anymore. If you want a charger for use on grid power, then the size and weight of adding inductors and transformers won't matter. But if you must use a gas-engine generator on-board for charging, you will probably do much better by replacing the AC generator with a PM DC motor, which will be much more efficient and lighter. But if you plan to get most of the energy for a track run from the generator, then you will do much better by using only an efficient ICE for mechanical power, with just a small alternator or generator for charging the starting battery and 12V accessories. 

As has been said before, a hybrid usually results in the lowest common denominator of performance of either the ICE or the EV, unless you very carefully engineer the components for maximum combined efficiency and performance. A DIY hack, as you seem to insist on, involves a very cheap and inefficient ICE, an AC generator optimized for constant 5 kW power, a badly compromised kludgy charging system, heavy and inefficient lead-acid batteries, and who-knows-what combination of controller and motor. Add to that the losses of the mechanical drive system transmission, differential, etc, and you wind up with a very poorly designed and inefficient, impractical vehicle. 

But, hey, whatever floats your boat, dude!


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## Iowa599 (Dec 9, 2014)

PStechPaul said:


> Just found a pretty good video on inductor design :
> 
> http://wimphot.com/M2I4V29sLVg0dEUz


Theanks!

Thing is, I would really want to do this because

1) as CHEAP as possible

2) reliability, 

the batteries may only be decent for ~3yr (still hoping on that), a warranty is 36mo till any thing on an ICE can be toast (don't get me goin' on this!), so f'it.

my goal is, for use: add gas, drive, stop,drive....get it, repeat that, a few thousand times

4) style, I want it to need/use/have as little as possible. So I only put one un-needed part. The grill, could use sheet metal, but, f'it, I like cool stuff!

plus it looks like an old car, like 1915ish, about 100 years ago. Ya know, back when cars, -only had what they needed.- 

Even flipping the front vw beams, then swapping the spindle, and relocating steering a bit, works. You get that 'straight-axle' look, on IFS, plus camber/toe obviously work out. Caster involves 'shimming' the beams a bit. Plus, the bump/brake drag/ throttle rise should -be better- than stock.
-should-.

5) did I say cheap? yeah, a real Locost at heart.


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## dcb (Dec 5, 2009)

Iowa599 said:


> my goal is, for use: add gas, drive, stop,drive....get it, repeat that, a few thousand times


This is a gas car you are describing, not an electric car. I will repeat, this is an electric car forum, generally speaking we are here because we are done with gas engines, not that we don't know a thing or two about them, but it is a very confused person who would consider your proposal an electric car or expect a lot of interest in it on an electric car forum. Just because you are using a half-baked electronic transmission, which you can barely comprehend, doesn't make it an electric car. 




Iowa599 said:


> 5) did I say cheap? yeah, a real Locost at heart.


Then you have a lot to learn. You can save thousands a year with electricity instead of using gasoline, you can also save thousands over the long haul by using better batteries with far greater cycle life and less weight (it isn't lead). You never mentioned your actual costs for batteries, so f'it. 

So you have a body in mind, now ask yourself how much range do you need to cover, say %95 of your driving. From there you can approximate how much battery you need and etc (aerodynamic resistance, iterate rolling resistance, expected speeds and conditions).

The generator stuff is really stupid at this point, and for the most part it could use the same charger that you sorted out for the electric vehicle in the first place, but you are wanting to run it constantly, so again f'it, it isnt an EV. I don't really know why you are going to carry 1000lbs of battery pushed around by a 7kw generator, it is really dumb, really, trust me.


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

Hi Iowa
I would agree with dcb
biff the smelly old gas stuff

This is my "Locost"
http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forum...-dubious-device-44370p8.html?highlight=duncan


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## Iowa599 (Dec 9, 2014)

_This is a gas car you are describing, not an electric car. I will repeat, this is an electric car forum, generally speaking we are here because we are done with gas engines, not that we don't know a thing or two about them, but it is a very confused person who would consider your proposal an electric car or expect a lot of interest in it on an electric car forum. Just because you are using a half-baked electronic transmission, which you can barely comprehend, doesn't make it an electric car. _

yeah, this may be half-baked...

_So you have a body in mind, now ask yourself how much range do you need to cover, say %95 of your driving. From there you can approximate how much battery you need and etc (aerodynamic resistance, iterate rolling resistance, expected speeds and conditions)._

Well, regular now I stay close, about once a year I go ~1300mi, few times in ~24hr, kinda an ev prob.

It does kinda look like that,

Assuming you can cruise at 55mph, 110A, from the 120v batteries, so 13,200W (16Hp, not too shabby)...

but say I can make 7000W into the batteries, call it 120v, so it would be 58A, which would be excessive for charging, but...

You going down the highway, from the bats, so your killing that at the same time...

Killing it at 55mph

So your ACTUALLY pulling ~50A from the batteries, which can hold (theoretically) 100A/h...

So you can go 55mph, which knocks your range to 2 hours, or ~110 miles.

Thinking, I'd like to leave the car parked with it running, from flat dead your looking at amperage, say you knock up at 25A (need to work on this), for ~4h to ~4.5hrs for a fully charged battery.


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## Iowa599 (Dec 9, 2014)

Duncan said:


> Hi Iowa
> I would agree with dcb
> biff the smelly old gas stuff
> 
> ...


Awe-some!

That car looks 100% useful.

utility > styling


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

_So your ACTUALLY pulling 48A from the batteries, which can hold (theoretically) 96A/h...
So you can go 50mph, for 2 hours, which knocks your range up to 100 miles._

Unfortunately you will only get 96Ah at a very low discharge rate
At 50 amps you would be luck to get 40 minutes

50 amps ... - my car (The Device) draws 50 amps at 50Kph at 100 Kph it draws 200 amps
Now I know it's aerodynamics are terrible and most cars are not as bad but even so 100Ah lead acids are going to give a range of less than 50km (not miles) at 50kph and about 20Km at 100kph


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## dcb (Dec 5, 2009)

Duncan said:


> 50 amps ... - my car (The Device) draws 50 amps at 50Kph at 100 Kph it draws 200 amps
> Now I know it's aerodynamics are terrible and most cars are not as bad but even so 100Ah lead acids are going to give a range of less than 50km (not miles) at 50kph and about 20Km at 100kph


You might need to check the math there. It should have ~1/4 the range at twice the speed (since 2x speed = 4x aerodynamic drag). If you account for lead acid peukert effect (fyi iowa, not a problem for lithium) it will be much less than 1/4 the range, no?


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## PStechPaul (May 1, 2012)

I think the typical Peukert value is about 1.2 (I use 1.222 as my default), so a 100 A-h battery at 50A has an effective capacity of 60 A-h. At twice the current, 100A, the capacity drops by about 15% to 51.4. At 25A the capacity is increased by 15% to 69.9. A 1000 kg vehicle on a 2% slope at 100 kph requires about 20 HP. At 50 kph it is 8 HP. So it takes 20/8 or 2.5 times the power which would require 2.5 times the current, and the capacity at 100 amps is 51.4 compared to 60 at 40 amps. So the time before depletion will be 1/2.5 * 51.4/60 = 0.343 but speed is double, so range will be about 68% of what it would be at the slower speed. Thus 50 km at 50 kph and 34 km at 100 kph.

Calculations performed by:
http://enginuitysystems.com/EVCalculator.htm


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## Sunking (Aug 10, 2009)

Paul that is a little light on Peukert effect don't you think?

Example a Rolls S-290 a 6 volt 220 AH (20 hour rate) golf cart battery when discharged at 79 amps or the 1 hour rate is a 79 AH battery


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## PStechPaul (May 1, 2012)

As shown in the graph above (using the middle red line), there is a very steep reduction of capacity from the 1/20 C rating point to the 50% point (60 A-h) at 30A or 0.25C. But it only drops to about 50 A-h at twice that current, for 60A or 0.5C.

The curve flattens out considerably at higher currents, so you can design the system for an effective A-h of 1/2 rated capacity and 0.25C normal continuous use, and pushing it up to 1C will not seriously affect the energy.


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## Iowa599 (Dec 9, 2014)

Damn! I didn't consider that!

So, with 1/2 as much battery draw, since the hybrid part takes up 1/2, I should get a bit more out of the battery. Maybe 75-100 miles of range, but not bad, i could go that far away, and leave it charging, then go home.

No need of charging stations where I go, I could end up in bfe (bum-f'k-egypt) with no worries. If I go home then charge it from the wall, no gasoline.

Otherwise, only gas, say one trip gives me 50 miles in an hour, with the charger at 100%, then it recharges in 4 hours, at 1/2 power...

It burns ~1.5 gal, for 50 miles (per that, if that's 1/2 right, plus HF where they 'claim' you get .25 gal/hr @ 1/2 power), not great, but not horrible. I can live with that.

I have seen a few homemade-hybrids that work with a similar concept. It seems to be feasible.

Plus, I'm just half nuts. So far I build junk that works, I don't need it to turn out 'special'. Doing something it isn't required to or isn't designed to, aka: 'special' (aka: spechul), is not desired by me. I call it, and am referred to as, 'McGyver style'.


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## dcb (Dec 5, 2009)

get an el-cheapo ($1000?) 5 speed econobox and learn how to hypermile. Why cobble this thing together to get 15mpg when you can get 50mpg turnkey?


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

Hi Iowa
If you are talking about making a petrol car with effectively an electric transmission

Bear in mind that the gods of thermodynamics take a cut each time you convert energy

petrol (chemical energy) to mechanical power - 30%
_Mechanical power to electricity - 85%
Electricity to mechanical power - 85%_
Transmission to the ground - 95%

The electric transmission robs you nearly 38%!!! and that is if you have a very efficient conversion - not a kludge!

Not to mention the simple fact that a generator will be a LOT less efficient than a car engine
(It's cheaper to make them that way)

Make yourself your Locost and stick a diesel in it


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## Iowa599 (Dec 9, 2014)

I guess I could, or should, add, I live close to work, it will get plugged in at home.

I really think this idea will evolve, gas powered cars VERY well (ASE Professional Tecnician, certified by Nissan, Honda, Toyota, Volkswagen, Suzuki). I know that my 'idea' will not amount to damn near the way they have headed. I do hope it is headed (Honda? plz!) is this direction. Look at an Insight! An aluminum chassis, that they tested on a CRX, and basically a 3-cyl version of the D-series? As in, replace the MECHANICAL connection to the wheels, with an electric connection.

Recent GM/Suzuki 'Hybrid' hacks? SUCK!

Yeah, basically I would prefer a 2-speed/3-speed transmission. With a solid axle. I drove a fire truck, a really big truck, with a 2-speed axle. Way too big. I would like to go Toyota's planetary drive, but that would involve way too many computers! Small p/u are the right size, and easy to find. They have no gears (multiple ratio), need a transmission. Chain (motorcycle-I have 5  ) same thing, afaik. If anyone has a suggestion?

I would like to keep VW front suspension, torsion bars. No hydraulics (no dampeners if I choose) for one, and I can do the pictured. Flip front around, then swap spindles & relocate steering gear.

Because, I would also like to go without them. I do have a Basic Stamp thing, I have replaced car eerom's with sockets, new 27c256/512 (memory), I programmed to convert Honda stock to turbo breathing demons. Made home computers from parts.

All in all, the style, because of my interested making it nothing it does not require, it ends up looking like an early car. Like a 1915 Model T pickup. I do like those, damn near stock (no rat rods!), just give is some steel wheels and modern(ish) tires.

Maybe the gen and motor would mount up front-mounted, fwd, the batteries hacked up under the floor. So it looks like/fits under a modern car. I would like it to be almost as cheap as possible, I could fit it all in a 91 Civic hatchback (I did manage 42mpg in one), but then I'm working with rust damage and other stuff.

I have about $50,000 in tools. Really, mostly Snap On, some Mac, and Matco. At work. Another set (or two) at home, with a welder. I might not be able to be quick, but I may be missing your standards. I used to engine swaps in (fastest) 1hr 15min, push in, drive out. I did get a 'TBI' about a rear ago when some bitch hit me while I was stopped (fuck Brandy Farnsworth, bitch could drive again BEFORE I WAS OUT OF THE HOSPITAL, I GOT 2x THE DRIVING SUSPENSION THAN BITCH DID, FOR HER ACTIONS).

So who knows, I am bored, just fill in any kind of knowledge you have. Any random comments, fine, I'm checking out all the ideas. I just want to start welding again, I could make 'art', but who wants mine? Even I don't.

If you want to ask me about car problems, make a thread somewhere on here (I hate registration!) and msg me a link in case I miss it. Usually I can fix the problem after you do a couple checkups for me. If you stop by (doubt this, but if you want to, sure) , 90% in under 15 minutes, others up to an hour. I -always- find the problem.


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## Iowa599 (Dec 9, 2014)

Maybe I go transfer case, IDK, working out gear ratios, but I am guessing that low would be first (city) and high would be 1:1, highway. Front drive is (usually) chain, cut that side of the box off and weld it solid (I can do aluminum, btw).

So basically any 'should' work if I size the axle about right, about 5:1, which should be in an older high MPG style s10 v6...

But, only with two gears, I need no clutch, but I probably shouldn't change it on the go...

With a locost design I end up with the motor, where the trans fits (no foot space), but a shorter ass-end...

Decisions....

Maybe...I can combine chain and planetary...

Ring gear to wheels
motor one to planet carrier
motor two to sun

This should get me pretty much wide open range of wheel speeds. If I run the motors in series, the one with lower tq requirements needs less amperage (or watts) requirements, the one with higher tq needs more watts, but assuming they get the same voltage, which has less (effective) resistance? In my brain: drive sun gear right off the motor1 shaft. Drive wheels, a driveshaft really, by attaching it to the ring gear. Drive planet carrier with a sprocket/chain by motor2...so what-the-hell kinda gear ratio should I run?

God. Damn.

Trying to decide, do more math, or buy one (small one!) and find out (on some small 'test' motors!)...then do more math I'll probly need to do...

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Chrysler-Pl...Parts_Accessories&hash=item339aec426e&vxp=mtr

edit: this is fun: http://eahart.com/prius/psd/


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

Hi Iowa
You don't need a gearbox you know
On the Device the motor sits where a gearbox would - then I have a short propshaft to the Subaru diff


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## Iowa599 (Dec 9, 2014)

I know, I could get away with one gear...

Very simple. I gear the axle/tire to give me ~5k rpm at 50mph...

But if I go trans, maybe even that you shouldn't shift on the go (no syncro's, or worse), with two gears. Then I gear to get you [email protected], city, one to [email protected], highway...I seems more efficiant. 

Yeah, I am working this out, still. I have considered one gear, maybe I just need to plan it. out on a driveshaft 'dummy' spacer ~12"long to space out what I *might* use. Then I think 2 motors, toyota inspired, and maybe I should try a 'backwards' trans case (swap input for output, & V-a-V).

I am still working this out, ya I understand that what I'm going at here is the opposite way everything else has gone, efficency. I feel this *might* double my range, per-say.


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## dcb (Dec 5, 2009)

I'd maybe build an electric locost and tuck one of these in somewhere between the rear wheels that it could be raised and lowered (preferrably quickly). Or perhaps just a single ratio motor/chain/wheel thing.

Note, you may have to recon with eeeeppppaaaa at some point.


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## dcb (Dec 5, 2009)

Oh, almost forgot, probably one of the most impressive/inspirational long range cheap EV's ever, dave clouds dolphin. It can cruise at 70mph, has a range of 200 miles (presumably at less than 70mph), cost him $3000, used lead acids and a really basic charger. You need good aero for good range/speed, period.

http://ecomodder.com/forum/showthre...r-dave-clouds-dolphin-13142-5.html#post173931

http://www.evalbum.com/3242


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## Iowa599 (Dec 9, 2014)

Wow.

Nice build! My only problem, do not call something that crazy, 'x' car based.

That uses car Geo -parts-. If you name it like they register it, you are almost as clueless as dmv workers.

No offense dmv people, I also know where your 'hidden' hoops are.


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## dcb (Dec 5, 2009)

laws are different everywhere, here it is the path of least resistance is to get a car too old for inspection (metro would qualify), register/insure it, then convert it.


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## Iowa599 (Dec 9, 2014)

I know the dmv calls it that, he shouldn't.


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## dcb (Dec 5, 2009)

not sure what your objection is here... anyway, the formula for cheap and long range is right there, don't care if you graft the rear motor/suspension/battery hauler on the back of a donor or a kit with a vw front end, just make sure it is streamlined.


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## Iowa599 (Dec 9, 2014)

It's a great car.

He should name what he makes, ignore what the dmv calls it. What he has is an awesome car, even if the dmv wrote 'poop' on paper, it doesn't mean that now you have too call it poop.

Also, seeing 'Metro' makes me think of a car I saw at a race event....










(stole pic)

I saw a metro like that running low 9-second quarter miles....It looked *almost* stock. The crowd suffered a mutual jaw-dropping moment when it ran the first run of the day. The -exact- opposite of what he wanted.


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## Iowa599 (Dec 9, 2014)

Well, I think I figured out planetary, not much an building, which *theoretically* works, but doing it...

I suppose I gotta make it a future project...

I guess going 1-gear, avoid the Volkswagen transmission, finding one, size etc... 

a 175/90-15 should get me ~27.4" OD, which should be [email protected] w/ ~4.5 rear end. A good high end guess, smaller rations can be easy to find.

A 4x130mm (4x5-1/8) bolt pattern is basically impossible be found, which makes me rethinkthe front end...also

Back to one of my thoughts and getting a Jeep Grand Wagoner, late 90's you can find them 2wd w/ a solid front axle, and a differential about the right size...

Or you should be able to fit any type of IFS you want to, if you change the battery box a bit...

back to the drawing board...


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## Iowa599 (Dec 9, 2014)

Ah-ha! Remembered the Locost part, looking for a parts car for cheap. Cheapest RWD/AWD/4WD I find, wins.

Gotta find car to build frame, gotta have frame to hack charger.

On with my task!

Still interested in any ideas on my hack that you happen to have. I'll try to keep this thread going with pics of my idea. Updated with thoughtful 'solutions' pertaining to my policy, Locost wins. Otherwise, I won't be able to keep it going until I complete 'step-one'.


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## PStechPaul (May 1, 2012)

I think you would do better to make a new thread for your overall project and keep this one for the charger (although it has already drifted way OT). As for going direct drive without a transmission, remember that you might have enough power and torque to move the vehicle at 65 MPH at 3600 RPM, but if your motor is marginally sized, it may not have enough torque to negotiate a driveway with 15% slope.

You need about 20 HP to maintain 65 MPH on a 2% slope with a gear ratio of 4.6:1, and that is a wheel torque of 140 lb-ft. A 20 HP motor at 3600 RPM generates about 30 lb-ft of torque. For a 20% slope at 6 MPH with the same ratio, you need 567 lb-ft at the wheels, which is 123 lb-ft from the motor at 360 RPM. Most motors can provide short-term torque 2-3 times rated, although a series-wound DC type can be pushed to 5x or more for short times. A two-speed transmission allows you to meet requirements for low and high-speed operation. Or you may need a higher power motor. Both options add weight, and you must also consider efficiency.


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## Iowa599 (Dec 9, 2014)

Yeah, I do need two speeds...

Driveshafts are cheap, so I think I can wait to change that part.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/9e/NP231PTmSOTF.jpg <--BIG!

If I 'cut' one, above the shifter, and pull the chain...

I have a compact, two speed, unit. -Hi- at 1:1, -Lo- at ~2:1. So my drive to work, for example, has a 30mph speed limit, never shift out of -Lo-. Weekend trip, -Hi- from the start.

Should maybe take the same driveshaft, just shorter. I gotta figure out how to couple one/mount one to the motor. Was thinking about mounting it to the frame and drive it with an adopted 'flex' coupling, a short driveshaft 

-EDIT: just realized that has a planetery! And a chain! I gotta spend some time with that. Maybe I can reverse that, adopt the planetary two accept two variable inputs, in which case I can probably go dual controllers, but using smaller ~48v motors is not optimal, in which case the 'charger' might need a transformer. Probly gotta get one to take it apart.


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

Iowa599 said:


> Yeah, I do need two speeds...


Why???
my "Locost" (The Device) is direct drive

Top speed is voltage limited - 100Kph with 130v
and I can beat a Ferrari 360 off the line
(The bugger got past me about 50 yards later)

With 130v I do an 18 second 1/4mile - 59mph - I need more volts!
And I can fly up any hill I have found


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## Iowa599 (Dec 9, 2014)

Lol, nice!

Yeah, I did realize locost, that's why I guess I'll do direct & convertible. Thinking about it, even if 'reversing' it I'd probably end up 'reverse' the ratio too, from 2:1 to 1:2, which would effect my motor speed/axle speed anyway.

The 18s quarter ain't too bad either. Most of the time you go slower anyway (my slowest tested is 12.29  on a 'sometimes' 60 mpg sipper).


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

Iowa599 said:


> Lol, nice!
> 
> Yeah, I did realize locost, that's why I guess I'll do direct & convertible. Thinking about it, even if 'reversing' it I'd probably end up 'reverse' the ratio too, from 2:1 to 1:2, which would effect my motor speed/axle speed anyway.
> 
> The 18s quarter ain't too bad either. Most of the time you go slower anyway (my slowest tested is 12.29  on a 'sometimes' 60 mpg sipper).



12.9 is pretty good - the Ferrari 360 that I ran against did 14 seconds - and it ain't any 60mpg sipper


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## Iowa599 (Dec 9, 2014)

Yeah, it was, RIP 599alpha 

Best it turned was an 11.998 (I like to call it 11.9, not a 12).

Stock.

Honda's rated time was 11.7

Best, 60mpg 'being nice'
Lowest, ~25mpg 'being naughty'
Typical, 45mpg

2006 Honda 599, only released 2004/2006, I had '06 where they brought ~2500 here to the US. Also known as 'Hornet 600' and CB600-F6. Now I have a well-maintained 'beta' that is -not for sale-

(btw: bike people, we allow no R-etards in this home)


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## Iowa599 (Dec 9, 2014)

FOUND!

The 'Overdrive' unit!










Some are 'brake' actuated, so can by 'shift' on the go!

I'm surprised that these have not been adopted (adapted?)

You may be interest in trying one on your 'Locost' too! These ought to bump you down ~1.3:1 (or up?).

~$100 bucks + driveshaft ~$100 + adapt to motor $unknown 

(edit: pic = electrical, shift via switch  )

edit2: and multiple?


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

Iowa599 said:


> FOUND!
> 
> The 'Overdrive' unit!
> 
> ...


Why would I want one of those?
It would just add weight and slow my car down

I will be able to increase my top speed by increasing voltage
And acceleration by increasing the current

Why would I want to add an expensive looking gearbox??


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## Iowa599 (Dec 9, 2014)

I thought your speed was limited by RPM, not voltage.

Also, don't you expect increased efficiency with lower gearing?

I really don't know if it's valid, but for a 30lb (guess) weight, you should come out decent.

Assuming your car weighs 1000lb, that should be a 3% weight gain, but a small efficiency loss (in Lo) maybe 3%? May not be worth it.

The main thing that worries me is I'd like a tall city gear (1.3:1) to 'keep even', but I'd also like a short gear (1:1) for distance/speed.

IDK, doesn't matter right now. Finding donor...

(random: thinking of Corvette style, fiberglass transverse leaf springs :dunno: lightweight? )


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

Hi Iowa

Yes my speed is limited by rpm - to about 130Kph (5000rpm)
which with our speed limit of 100kph is not a great problem!

On the track its more of an issue - although most of the events I will enter are lower speed ones anyway

If I was starting from scratch I would try and find a 9 inch motor (mine is 11 inch) which with the same gearing would give a max speed over 180Kph (7000prm)

But I would then need more amps to get the same acceleration, - 

My car is overbuilt, it weighs over 700Kg - I will probably rebuild it and it should be less than 500Kg

But even with that and 100kg of me 1000amps will still spin the tires (55% on rear tires)

A Mk2 Device would be able to spin the tires and get up to 180Kph
(If/when I can get it past the spousal spending committee)


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## Iowa599 (Dec 9, 2014)

Wow!

I guess yours might not need one!

I'm wondering, how many watts does it pull at speeds? (or amps, I guess we can use 130v)

It seems very quick! What's the 1/8mi time?


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

Hi Iowa

The device is about as aerodynamic as a brick!
I draw 50 amps at 50Kph - and 200 amps at 100Kph

My controller is a prototype Paul & Sabrina - OpenRevolt,
I have it set to 1000amps (can go up to 1800amps)

When I accelerate for the first few yards the controller controls my current then the back EMF from the motor increases and the controller goes to 100% - but the actual current drops as the motor rpm rises

I get
1000 amps to about 700rpm - 19Kph
800 amps to about 900rpm - 25Kph
600 amps to about 1100rpm - 30Kph
500 amps to about 1500rpm - 40Kph
400 amps to about 1900rpm - 50Kph
200 amps to about 3500rpm - 95Kph

These are not actual measured numbers (except for the first and last) - just extrapolated from the ends of the curve
But it definitely feels like that

When I did the 1/4mile my 1/8th mile time was 10.5 seconds

My motor seems to have nearly three times as much back EMF at a given rpm/current as a Warp9 does
But it was the right price ($100)


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## Iowa599 (Dec 9, 2014)

Lotsa info there, going to take me a bit...were your numbers cruising or accelerating?

a 10.5s 1/8 really is not bad!!

quoted wrong (my bad) best time, was 11.983...










7.6s, so ~2.5sec back is not bad (against something like that)!


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

The 50amps at 50Kph and 200 amps at 100Kph were "cruising"

The others were full power

It's great fun to drive - feels like I've got to keep holding it back


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## Iowa599 (Dec 9, 2014)

Back...

Everything I find shows this:










Which show the same peaks. I do not like this, but usually they are using an 'infinite' source, the wall plug. So I have no proof that a capacitor will help, but from what I've gathered it will not hurt.

So I have a finite source.

Many are saying, 'use an inductor', but my generator is made from one, a coil of wire affected by magnetic forces. So as long as I control what it is going to make, I don't have to mess with what it made.

I also gave away my oldskool oscilloscope, like remember the old TV's? It had a screen like that  , so I'm going to, probably, hack one of my Android devices. I also used to work at the Advanced Auto store, which gets ~10/batteries per week. They are junk, and dead, but I want to see what you get from this, and they have 120v & 240v outlets, and my friends still work there so I can probly pull 'em out the back door 'for a looksie'.

In the meantime, I'm scouring for parts.

I need, first off, axles. Looking for front and rear 2WD Jeep Grand Cherokee, which is a bit difficult to find, but hopefully cheap. Looking for short ratios, if it matters (I can regear them), like 5:1 +.

Almost everything else I should be able to make with raw steel.

Yeah, from what I have found my idea is questionable, but thus far I have found little calling it a poor idea. I do know that my battery idea is questionable, there is a good reason for my Lead-Acid choice, Locost. I can get those new ~$80ea, used (decent) ~$35ea, if the rest works out I can go to a speshul God-Ion, $$$$$$, thing.

My goal is 60 miles, in one hour, twice per day. When we get charging stations as active as gas stations...


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## dcb (Dec 5, 2009)

Iowa599 said:


> ...but thus far I have found little calling it a poor idea.


I'm gonna go with "troll" ...


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## Iowa599 (Dec 9, 2014)

sorry, but who's the troll?


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## dcb (Dec 5, 2009)

I appreciate you are on a steep learning curve, but it would help to listen.

so far your design goals are pretty sketchy. But if you want to get the most out of any AC source (generators included) then you need a good pfc charger (which means inductors). So far you haven't even looked at how to charge batteries, or done any electric car type analysis, only how to screw with the already fairly optimized fartbox (which will be entirely unoptimized without pfc), hoping that gas will make up for any and all electrical and aerodynamic and weight deficiencies.

Build an Electric car, with $38 lead batteries if you have to, sort out motor sizing, controller, current, drag, charging, etc etc etc, THEN and only then, you can look at what kind of generator you will need if any. There is no case established for screwing with a generator internals.


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## PStechPaul (May 1, 2012)

What concerns me is the repeated mantra of doing everything as cheaply as possible, while at the same time adding expensive components (supercapacitors), in an effort to avoid using less expensive and far more effective components (inductors), due to a lack of understanding (and perhaps obstinacy). Apparently the OP has a lot of experience and skill with the mechanical aspects of the design to the point where major rework and adaptation of differentials, axles, gearboxes, and frame components are considered "child's play". But there are serious shortcomings in the proposed electrical design, and little attempt seems to be made to understand the parameters and make intelligent choices based on well-known principles as have been presented. That must be frustrating to those who have continued to follow this thread, and at this point it does seem to be indistinguishable from the efforts of a troll to keep a discussion going. I am just rather morbidly fascinated to watch the ensuing train wreck.


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## Iowa599 (Dec 9, 2014)

Oh, bummer, I took troll to mean some asshat with the intent to cause drama.


Well, you are basically correct, I do have knowledge of mechanical bits.

I do like the locost scheme, it is my calling.

You even got they other thing, sorta, I just want to clarify:

I want to avoid 'new' components, charger and the like. I have a fascination with mechanical bits. Very simple things. Ever seen a 'hit-n-miss' engine? I got one, they are awes-some! The only reason i decided on a charger, is I want 12v output (electric start model), and I need to establish frame size.

It seems most of this forum is DIY-electro-heads, and pro even. I'm from a die-hard petrolhead group. I'd like to take a different aspect on this idea, electric cars are either slow, or fast, I am trying to open a new path...

All thought, anyway, thanks for everyone's time, I'll be back intermittently while I start finding pieces for my car, truck, thing...


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## Iowa599 (Dec 9, 2014)

By the way, random stuff here...

The new Honda NSX, or Acura, depending on your viewpoint...

Hybrid! Sportscar!

I do like real Honda, and I hate the gas engine aspect of this, however, the hybrid idea of a sports car is awesome. Automatic refilling NOS (nitrous oxide)


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

Hi Iowa
I'm into the Locost idea
BUT
It should be either IC Engined - or Electric Motored

Using an IC engine to produce power to then drive an electric motor is a BAAAD idea
It give the gods of thermodynamics two additional opportunities to take their cut
(and they will)

It works for trains because it replaces multiple speed gearboxes on lots of axles


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## dcb (Dec 5, 2009)

also don't belive the glossy magazines about hybrids. Or the somewhat misnamed locost:
"Many people including myself set off on this journey with a budget (don't you just love that word) of anything between $5-6k. Forget it. I would suggest a minimum budget today of A$15k is required to complete a car of reasonable quality and finish on the road"

Generally if you want cheap, you convert something (metros and civics and beetles are nice, or an s10 if you want to carry a lot of lead), but as you realize a good conversion can be expensive, folks start converting nice cars that they actually like, and cheap goes out the window.


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