# Dyson back Solid State battery maker



## Karter2 (Nov 17, 2011)

What does that mean ?
Are they planning to make 18650's, 26650's , AA's, D, F, or prismatic cells ?
Remember, Tesla are reported to be moving on to 22700 cell format.


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## PhantomPholly (Aug 20, 2008)

If you read the linked article, you know as much as I do.

Last handheld vacuum I owned used D-cells. Somehow I doubt that will be the first form-factor they will make.


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## Karter2 (Nov 17, 2011)

Read the articles, watched the video, etc, ..lots of "spin", but little real info there.
I interpret between the lines, that they will use existing cell manufacturing technology, which could be anything from round cells , pouch cells, or even some of the small prismatic so used in cell phones ?
I guess they will go with whatever customer wants who commits to a commercial order first.
18650 would cover the entire power tool, domestic cordless appliance, and vape market.
If this is " the real deal" , I am surprised Apple is not snapping the whole thing off the table !


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## PhantomPholly (Aug 20, 2008)

Karter2 said:


> Read the articles, watched the video, etc, ..lots of "spin", but little real info there.
> I interpret between the lines, that they will use existing cell manufacturing technology, which could be anything from round cells , pouch cells, or even some of the small prismatic so used in cell phones ?
> I guess they will go with whatever customer wants who commits to a commercial order first.
> 18650 would cover the entire power tool, domestic cordless appliance, and vape market.
> If this is " the real deal" , I am surprised Apple is not snapping the whole thing off the table !


Yeah, I'm trying to read between the lines here. Dyson has a different problem than Apple does - appliances which use high C rates, and which customers are more likely to drive into the ground before recharging, and for which those same customers might be impatient with respect to recharge time. LiTi does not offer lower price nor higher total energy density, but it can take a beating and recharge far more quickly than traditional LiIon.

My guess is that LiTi may never become price competitive with LiIon in their sweet spot spaces (portable electronics) but may be just the deal for premium appliances (Dyson is considered "top shelf" for vacuums, as odd as that might sound). Your typical housewife would not generally be happy to hear that it takes hours to recharge her hand vac batteries and that the batteries wear out - for that audience these batteries might be worth a premium price.


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## Reedicus (Mar 18, 2015)

Car and Driver did a quick article about it. Prismatic cells and they "like" heat, so no cooling required and manufactured using thin film processing in a vacuum chamber, same as semiconductors. 

http://blog.caranddriver.com/sakti3-the-next-generation-battery-company-you-need-to-know-about/


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## PhantomPholly (Aug 20, 2008)

Very nice. There was one item in the article that bugged me because almost every reporter gets it wrong. They said:



> Put another way, imagine a battery that takes up the same physical space as, say, the Tesla Model S’s floor-mounted pack but contains twice the power and weighs less. Acceleration and driving range would increase, as would the car’s overall efficiency.


You don't get both. You get one or the other (their claim is 2x energy density, so you get twice the range or half the weight).

But fighting ignorance is a waste of time. The good news is that they have taken the right approach to a better mousetrap.


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## PhantomPholly (Aug 20, 2008)

Update. Looked at their site, the only recent news is that they are participating in a White House "Demonstration Day." That is better than bankruptcy, but not informative.

WSJ article is pretty informative, but also hearkens back to EEStor and their "special arrangement" with the NEV company that went nowhere. Still, these batteries are supposed to appear in Dyson's new line of gadgets in the next 2 years, which puts a timeline on delivery or failure.

Will check again in another 6 months...


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## Karter2 (Nov 17, 2011)

Maybe I am a skeptic , but I'm afraid I see Dyson as a modern day Clive Sinclair (remember the C5 ?) 
He is a " gadget man" who has seen the retail opportunity to exploit people's fascination with superficial technology.
I don't believe he has ever produced an original idea, just recycled old, often forgotten, technology. ..
Bag less ? Cordless ?, blade less ?, etc etc....all done before.
The only thing original about Dyson products are the prices !
So , I don't expect any brilliant original thinking or products will come from the Dyson involvement .


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## PhantomPholly (Aug 20, 2008)

Karter2 said:


> Maybe I am a skeptic , but I'm afraid I see Dyson as a modern day Clive Sinclair (remember the C5 ?)
> He is a " gadget man" who has seen the retail opportunity to exploit people's fascination with superficial technology.
> I don't believe he has ever produced an original idea, just recycled old, often forgotten, technology. ..
> Bag less ? Cordless ?, blade less ?, etc etc....all done before.


Hrmmm, so the fact that his product out-performs all others measurably and visibly does not count as innovation on your part? Nor that the device is materially easier to use?

And, to recycle old technology successfully is a kind of genius onto its own....



> The only thing original about Dyson products are the prices !
> So , I don't expect any brilliant original thinking or products will come from the Dyson involvement .


Well, there are always those who believe innovators are not original because they cannot discern what said innovators have done. And there is certainly room to be skeptical.

On the other hand, I am perhaps married to the world's most cynical spouse. Having tried all of the other brands (and broken most of them), she now brags about her Dyson and even asked for a new one (the old one was purchased used 12 years prior, and was to be relegated to the basement so she no longer has to lug it up and down the stairs) for Christmas. 

Considering that most husbands would be sacked for buying such an appliance for a major holiday, Dyson is the embodiment of sheer genius.


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## Karter2 (Nov 17, 2011)

Oh, yes , i have to admire him for making a fortune and a successful business from selling the 'sizzle' rather than the steak.
And he has had plenty of my ( wife's) money too ( early adopter), but in reality any 1000+ Watt vacuum had better work well.
We dumped it after several expensive repairs and many dollars spent buying "Filters" for the "bagless" vacuum.
A 1600Watt Meile bag vac is better made, more reliable, just as effective, cleaner to empty, etc
..and a 22volt, $400, cordless vac !!...no thanks,.. especially as the battery is not removable/replaceable.


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## PhantomPholly (Aug 20, 2008)

Karter2 said:


> Oh, yes , i have to admire him for making a fortune and a successful business from selling the 'sizzle' rather than the steak.


So, I know there are a few models and some are better than others. On the other hand, their full size model has been independently tested multiple times and outperforms the majority of competitors hands down on ease of use; seems to clean just fine. Looking at the Youtubes, Miela might have an advantage in some circumstances, but I doubt they apply much to the typical household and they lose out on ease of use.

We had up to four 70lb dogs; my wife does not work but keeps an immaculate house - meaning she vacuums almost every single day. Did I mention our house is huge? After 10 years on the first Dyson it had its first problem, so I took it to the Atlanta area repair center. The guy repaired it for free, and as my wife had talked about another vacuum (the old one to be relegated to the basement) I bought the last floor model of the previous year's model (one model newer than the old one, one less than the latest). Both still work great 2 years later, and one of her favorite jokes to friends is how much the gift I gave her sucks....

So all I am saying is, you sound like you either got the cheaper one (the smaller model doesn't work nearly as well, that is true) or just had bad luck. Most folks love the Dyson. As for the battery model, of course the battery can be replaced.

And which is better? Depends on your point of view. The Dyson does a great job and is easy for my wife to use with mild arthritis. With 3 dogs (lost one last year) she has to empty the Dyson 3 times every time she vacuums, which would be a total PITA with a bag model. The Miela is much heavier and gives her issues (she tried a friends). Maybe the Miela sucks a little more, who knows? Most demos are rigged. But since we don't go around pouring sand on our rugs and don't run a hotel the difference is utterly moot.

Edit: Watched a few videos on this great debate. Dyson still wins on simplicity of use. German engineering is hard to beat. With our biggest problem being dog hair, I think my wife is better off with the Dyson, but I can easily see others with different homes and needs preferring the Miela. Just like buying an airplane, you should understand your mission before deciding on which product is right for you.


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

We had a Dyson - got fed up with changing the filters then it died

We now have a built in vacuum system - this fixes the biggest issue with vacuum's which is the dust they blow into the air
(Which is why they need really fine filters)
My system blows the air into the outside - no need for a fine filter

Cost less than a Dyson as well even if I did go a bit OTT with the number of inlets


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