# Re: [EVDL] Making Wheel Motors Obsolete?



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Making Wheel Motors Obsolete?*

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dgoK


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Making Wheel Motors Obsolete?*

Having owned a suzuki carry before,
I should point out 1400kg is its GVM, not its kerb weight.
Its kerb weight is 700kg.
100hp in 1400kg will be slightly better than its original *ahem*
performance.

How would converting a suzuki carry add 1800kg to it?
That=92s beyond heavy even by lead acid standards.

Matt =


-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf
Of Robert Johnston
Sent: Saturday, 28 March 2009 5:46 AM
To: [email protected]
Cc: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Making Wheel Motors Obsolete?



> <[email protected]> wrote:
> > Anaerin, I was considering aMicro size pickup like that marketed by =
> 
> > OKAauto, and motorcycle motors in the 50 hp scale (AC and two is 100 =
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Making Wheel Motors Obsolete?*

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by9ldgoK


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Making Wheel Motors Obsolete?*

Hi Robert!

What I find most interesting about your suggestion of the E-Wheel is that... They have one for busses! I had heard somewhere that busses with wheel motors were available.

http://www.etraction.com/TheWheel.htm
http://www.etraction.com/models_and_types.htm

They must have overcome any lockup skid problems to be able to install them on a bus delivering 75 people to the airport(or whereever)!... never heard of any sue-age naming wheelmotor manufacturers as
respondents!

I also notice in their pdf that they have a 22.5kw @ 144v model too... perfect for a rav4 size vehicle.
http://www.etraction.com/Downloads/System%20Performances.pdf

Thanks!
Tom

However, something like e-Traction's TheWheel SM350 (Which is a scaled down version of their bus wheelmotors, mounted in a more standard package) can be used to do this.



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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Making Wheel Motors Obsolete?*

Ah, that wikipedia article is for the newer version, which I have never
owned, where as the link you gave earlier was for the older version.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bedford_Rascal

A suzuki mightyboy would probably make a better light weight conversion than
a carry imho.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suzuki_MightyBoy

Originally had a 22kw engine, 12" wheels.
Still did 60mph (eventually).

Matt


-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf
Of Robert Johnston
Sent: Saturday, 28 March 2009 6:01 AM
To: matt
Cc: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Making Wheel Motors Obsolete?



> matt <[email protected]> wrote:
> > Having owned a suzuki carry before,
> > I should point out 1400kg is its GVM, not its kerb weight.
> > Its kerb weight is 700kg.
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Making Wheel Motors Obsolete?*



> Tom Watson <[email protected]> wrote:
> >
> > Hi Robert!
> >
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Making Wheel Motors Obsolete?*

>
>I also notice in their pdf that they have a 22.5kw @ 144v model 
>too... perfect for a rav4 size vehicle.
>http://www.etraction.com/Downloads/System%20Performances.pdf

Do you notice the weight?


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Making Wheel Motors Obsolete?*

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Making Wheel Motors Obsolete?*



> Robert Johnston wrote:
> > The first challenge is to get motors like this made, whether they're
> > wheelmotors or otherwise. The next challenge is getting your hands on
> > them, as we're not OEMs, and manufacturers would much prefer to deal
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Making Wheel Motors Obsolete?*



> Lee Hart <[email protected]> wrote:
> > Robert Johnston wrote:
> >> The first challenge is to get motors like this made, whether they're
> >> wheelmotors or otherwise. The next challenge is getting your hands on
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Making Wheel Motors Obsolete?*

i think that hydralic wheel lockup would be a safety issue
as with wheel motors??????
Louis in central BC
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Robert Johnston" <[email protected]>
.
> How ironic. I've been asking about this very type of setup on this very 
> list. 
>
> I was under the impression, however, that at high speed (Or at least,
> high flow rates), hydraulic fluid can drag in the pipes, which in this
> case would cause inefficiency in the transmission system.
.> 

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Making Wheel Motors Obsolete?*

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Louis Pelletier" <[email protected]>
To: <[email protected]>; "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" 
<[email protected]>
Sent: Saturday, March 28, 2009 10:35 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Making Wheel Motors Obsolete?


>i think that hydralic wheel lockup would be a safety issue
> as with wheel motors??????
> Louis in central BC
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Robert Johnston" <[email protected]>
> .
>> How ironic. I've been asking about this very type of setup on this very
>> list. 
>>
>> I was under the impression, however, that at high speed (Or at least,
>> high flow rates), hydraulic fluid can drag in the pipes, which in this
>> case would cause inefficiency in the transmission system.
> .>
Sure would! Ever use a hydralic Log Splitter? In awile it is too hot to 
touch!That fluid, being pumped and squooze repetedly, get HOT as hell!
> _______________________________________________
> General EVDL support: http://evdl.org/help/
> Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
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> 

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Making Wheel Motors Obsolete?*

As a hydraulics teacher I learned that the hoses or pipes get hot if 
undersized. So it would seem they don't get hot it the diameter is large enough. 
Line sizing is important. some industrial equipment use this drive scheme 
like fork lifts. I am no designer with hydraulics, but I have never seen it 
used at over 15 mph. I know of no reason why it should not work, but what is 
the advantage over a Jeep front axle or rear with differential an the inherent 
15 % loss involved. 
Build it and lets see if it works, 
you might license the patent and make a million! 
Dennis Miles


In a message dated 3/28/2009 11:18:10 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, 
[email protected] writes:


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Louis Pelletier" <[email protected]>
To: <[email protected]>; "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" 
<[email protected]>
Sent: Saturday, March 28, 2009 10:35 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Making Wheel Motors Obsolete?


>i think that hydralic wheel lockup would be a safety issue
> as with wheel motors??????
> Louis in central BC
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Robert Johnston" <[email protected]>
> .
>> How ironic. I've been asking about this very type of setup on this very
>> list. 
>>
>> I was under the impression, however, that at high speed (Or at least,
>> high flow rates), hydraulic fluid can drag in the pipes, which in this
>> case would cause inefficiency in the transmission system.
> .>
Sure would! Ever use a hydralic Log Splitter? In awile it is too hot to 
touch!That fluid, being pumped and squooze repetedly, get HOT as hell!
> _______________________________________________
> General EVDL support: http://evdl.org/help/
> Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
> Archives: http://evdl.org/archive/
> Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
> 

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Making Wheel Motors Obsolete?*

Are you suggesting that a standard differential results in a 15% 
loss? If so, I think your way off in your estimate. Assuming no 
mechanical problems, I would estimate 99+% efficiency. Considering 
the amount of energy being transmitted through the differential, if it 
was much higher you would need an oil cooler attached.



> [email protected] wrote:
> 
> > As a hydraulics teacher I learned that the hoses or pipes get hot if
> > undersized. So it would seem they don't get hot it the diameter is
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Making Wheel Motors Obsolete?*

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----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Making Wheel Motors Obsolete?*

While I don't know if wheel motors are the best approach for high
performance vehicles, I see a number of major advantages for them:

o The entire drive train might consume zero effective space in a
car. Since batteries, chargers, and inverters can be shaped much
more flexibly than engines and transmissions, that part of the
drive train could be shaped into a long, wide, but fairly thin
package (6-8 inches?) that forms the floor of the vehicle, thus
taking up no space in the car. And the 4 (relatively small)
motors would reside inside the wheels, thus also taking up no
space. Thus for a given length this EV could have significantly
more interior room than a gas engine car.

o The car wold have better stability and handling (except maybe for
the unsprung weight issue), because the center of gravity would not
only be especially low, but also almost uniformly distributed
across the vehicle.

o The car would have 4-wheel drive with a vengeance, as each wheel
could communicate with every other wheel 500-1000 times/sec. for
acceleration and braking.

o The drive train would be much simpler and more efficient due to
a lack of transmission, drive shaft, differential, and CV boots.


Now somewhere I read that the PML electric mini-cooper only adds 4.4
pounds to the unsprung weight for each wheel, despite the fact that
*each* of the 4 motors develops a whopping 160 HP! Its web site is:

http://www.worldcarfans.com/2060724.006/pml-builds-640hp-electric-mini


Now while unsprung weight might be a problem for a high performance
vehicle, it should not be a problem for a well designed micro-car
with a speed limit of, say, 35 MPH. In that case, the fact that the
drive train takes up zero space, means that a really tiny, limited
speed EV, say 8 feet long and 5 feet wide, might be able to
comfortably carry 4 adults. With a range of, say, 120 miles, it would
be a perfect urban-suburban vehicle that would radically reduce traffic
congestion, parking, noise, pollution, and transportation cost.

-- Larry.



> <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> > As a hydraulics teacher I learned that the hoses or pipes get hot if
> > undersized. So it would seem they don't get hot it the diameter is large
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Making Wheel Motors Obsolete?*

> Now somewhere I read that the PML electric mini-cooper only adds 4.4
> pounds to the unsprung weight for each wheel, despite the fact that
> *each* of the 4 motors develops a whopping 160 HP!

According to http://www.autobloggreen.com/tag/PML%20Flightlink , PML 
is bankrupt - echos what Bill was saying about the history of wheel 
motors... Then again, it could have been a recent association with 
ZAP, the bane of all honest EV endeavors.

Think more
Talk less
Become wise

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----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Making Wheel Motors Obsolete?*

This is exactly why wheel motors keep surfacing. When you first 
investigate, all these positive attributes are very apparent. You 
think "Wow! Wheel motors would be fantastic!"

If you don't do the research into why no one is putting hub motors in 
highway capable cars, even though they have been around for over 100 
years, or you don't do a detailed simulation, or you think "I'm so 
much more clever than all the folks that have tried this before." 
then you will forge ahead and build a hub motor car yourself. You 
will spend a lot of money (hub motors are not cheap,) and you will 
reach the same result as everyone else that has tried them and 
abandoned the idea (for highway capable cars.)

I have just hit the major safety issues that plague wheel motors. I 
didn't bother with the economic issues, or other headaches that they 
bring with them.

>>>> Polar moment <<

By moving weight to the periphery of the vehicle from the 
center, you seriously increase the "polar moment" of the vehicle. Not 
a big deal in a "family truckser" but it is very noticeable in a 
sports car. It is a lot more difficult to get the car to start 
turning, and to stop turning because the weight is so far from the 
center of gravity of the car. You will have This also make the car 
quite a bit less energy efficient on curvy roads. Not a big issue, 
but it makes the car "worse" instead of "better" in general. 
Efficiency is not something you want to give up on an EV.

>>>> Overall weight <<<

Hub motors generally weigh more than "centrally located" 
motors. They turn slower and to generate the same HP, they must have 
more torque, and this means a bigger motor. Yes, you can add a gear 
box to each hub, but this is four gear boxes to maintain (and break) 
instead of two. The four small gear boxes will weigh more than the 
two gear boxes of twice the HP capacity.

>>> Vibration <<<

The vibration is REALLY severe on the unsprung portion of a 
car. The hub motors (and their gear boxes) will have to withstand all 
this vibration (including hitting pot holes.) You are going to have a 
hard time making the hub motor components last any time at all. They 
certainly are not going to be built cheaply to withstand vibration 
that severe. To withstand the fatigue loads, they MUST be built 
stronger than a centrally located motor. This means heavier and/or 
more expensive.

>>>> Exposure to the elements and road hazards (like curbs.) <<<<

This one is pretty obvious. Ice, water, mud, gravel, rocks, 
curbs, road debris, etc. The hubs are the least protected part of the 
car. More protection means higher cost and increased weight.

>>>> Cost <<<<

Hub motors end up costing significantly more than 
centrally-located motors. Look at the prices of folks that are 
selling them (and taking orders for non-existent hub motors.) It 
isn't that the technology is new. It is that they are more expensive 
per kW in implement.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Hub motors look fantastic at first, and then you dig into it 
and you discover all the problems you must overcome, and you discover 
how expensive it is to overcome these problems, and you realize that 
hub motors are just not as good idea as they might seem to be. It 
seems like everyone needs to rediscover this for themselves, however.

Bill Dube'

At 09:55 PM 3/28/2009, you wrote:
>While I don't know if wheel motors are the best approach for high
>performance vehicles, I see a number of major advantages for them:
>
> o The entire drive train might consume zero effective space in a
> car. Since batteries, chargers, and inverters can be shaped much
> more flexibly than engines and transmissions, that part of the
> drive train could be shaped into a long, wide, but fairly thin
> package (6-8 inches?) that forms the floor of the vehicle, thus
> taking up no space in the car. And the 4 (relatively small)
> motors would reside inside the wheels, thus also taking up no
> space. Thus for a given length this EV could have significantly
> more interior room than a gas engine car.
>
> o The car wold have better stability and handling (except maybe for
> the unsprung weight issue), because the center of gravity would not
> only be especially low, but also almost uniformly distributed
> across the vehicle.
>
> o The car would have 4-wheel drive with a vengeance, as each wheel
> could communicate with every other wheel 500-1000 times/sec. for
> acceleration and braking.
>
> o The drive train would be much simpler and more efficient due to
> a lack of transmission, drive shaft, differential, and CV boots.
>
>
>Now somewhere I read that the PML electric mini-cooper only adds 4.4
>pounds to the unsprung weight for each wheel, despite the fact that
>*each* of the 4 motors develops a whopping 160 HP! Its web site is:
>
>http://www.worldcarfans.com/2060724.006/pml-builds-640hp-electric-mini
>
>
>Now while unsprung weight might be a problem for a high performance
>vehicle, it should not be a problem for a well designed micro-car
>with a speed limit of, say, 35 MPH. In that case, the fact that the
>drive train takes up zero space, means that a really tiny, limited
>speed EV, say 8 feet long and 5 feet wide, might be able to
>comfortably carry 4 adults. With a range of, say, 120 miles, it would
>be a perfect urban-suburban vehicle that would radically reduce traffic
>congestion, parking, noise, pollution, and transportation cost.
>
> -- Larry.
>
>


> <[email protected]> wrote:
> >
> > > As a hydraulics teacher I learned that the hoses or pipes get hot if
> > > undersized. So it would seem they don't get hot it the diameter is large
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Making Wheel Motors Obsolete?*

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bi9saXN0aW5mby9ldgoK


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Making Wheel Motors Obsolete?*

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----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Making Wheel Motors Obsolete?*

> Are you suggesting that a standard differential results in a 15% 
> loss? If so, I think your way off in your estimate. Assuming no 
> mechanical problems, I would estimate 99+% efficiency. Considering 
> the amount of energy being transmitted through the differential, if it 
> was much higher you would need an oil cooler attached. 

Yes they do. That was one of the pushes to FWD, it gives you a few more 
percent than the "hypoid" ring and pinion. Maybe in the last 10 years 
they have reduced that loss to 10. *

The Hypoid 90 degree ring and pinion is a sliding pressured contact to 
distribute load for strength and make it quiet.
Take a 60 mph drive and even with a 60mph breeze around it they get too 
hot to put your hand on (Heat, the bullshit detector for high eff claims)
The oil carries the heat away from the mesh and is thrown against the 
housing that is in the airstream. trucks, cars with independent rear and 
cars with the diffy out of the airflow, have fins on the rear cover to 
help. They use an oil that can handle the heat.

Straight cut involute gears are 98% efficient per mesh, and noisy. Even 
with a tuned exhaust, the gear noise will turn heads on an accelerating 
autocross car that has straight cut gears in it.


* of course the American auto manufacturers screwed this up with 
planetary gear sets instead of crown and pinion. Which one of honda's 
tricks to getting higher mileage.




_______________________________________________
General EVDL support: http://evdl.org/help/
Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
Archives: http://evdl.org/archive/
Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Making Wheel Motors Obsolete?*

There is an interesting article on wheel motors for a large Dutch bus in
Technology Review at:

http://www.technologyreview.com/energy/22328/

despite being heavy that claim a very large increase in efficiency. Of
course, I suspect that the handling differences between buses and cars may
play an important role.





> Robert Johnston <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> > On Sat, Mar 28, 2009 at 23:05, <[email protected]> wrote:
> > >> Now somewhere I read that the PML electric mini-cooper only adds 4.4
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Making Wheel Motors Obsolete?*

Sent from my iPhone



> Jeff Shanab <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> >> Are you suggesting that a standard differential results in a 15%
> >> loss? If so, I think your way off in your estimate. Assuming no
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Making Wheel Motors Obsolete?*

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----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Making Wheel Motors Obsolete?*

>Imagine designing and building a demonstration
>car for your company, and failing to anticipate
>that it would need a parking brake or some sort
>of emergency brake, should _anything_ in the prototype drive system fail.

I guess PML hasn't figured out how to spit out that orange!
Maybe they'll choke on it!
Rod

_______________________________________________
General EVDL support: http://evdl.org/help/
Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
Archives: http://evdl.org/archive/
Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Making Wheel Motors Obsolete?*



> Roger Heuckeroth wrote:
> 
> > FWD still has a differential. The main reason manufacterers
> > went to FWD is that it's easier and cheaper to manufacture.
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Making Wheel Motors Obsolete?*

Sent from my iPhone

On Mar 29, 2009, at 10:48 PM, Roger Stockton <[email protected]> 


> wrote:
> 
> > Roger Heuckeroth
> 
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Making Wheel Motors Obsolete?*

>From: Roger Stockton <[email protected]>


> > > Roger Heuckeroth wrote:
> >
> > > FWD still has a differential. The main reason manufacturers
> > > went to FWD is that it's easier and cheaper to manufacture.
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Making Wheel Motors Obsolete?*

> >From: Roger Stockton <[email protected]>


> > > > Roger Heuckeroth wrote:
> > >
> > > > FWD still has a differential. The main reason manufacturers
> > > > went to FWD is that it's easier and cheaper to manufacture.
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Making Wheel Motors Obsolete?*



> Jeff Shanab wrote:
> 
> >>> From: Roger Stockton <[email protected]>
> >>>> Roger Heuckeroth wrote:
> ...


----------

