# Brian's EV Conversion #2 "The Saturn Project"



## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

OK here we go with EV build #2. Got the car home saftly with no issues at all. It is sitting in the garage warming up a bit. Took a few pics so far and later start attacking the engine reomval. I tried to start it but the motor tried to fire but just wouldn't. It has a 1/2 tank of gas so I will siphon that out and get all the other fluids out. I will post some pics of my progress later (if there is any).

Brian

of course my camera phone didn't seem to work for the pic of the car on the trailer (oh well)


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

I've started pulling my engine today actually. I will pull the engine and transmission at the same time as one assembly. But hit a snag because I don't have a proper socket for the CV shaft nuts on the hubs. Off to the autoparts store to get one.....

Looks like a nice clean car though. Her loss is your gain at $400.


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## dudette (Jul 17, 2008)

Looking good Brian, looking good!
Cops really like red too!
dudette


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## slurryguy (Dec 16, 2008)

Congratulations on the bouncing new baby. Stinks for you to be forced into a 2nd build, but great news for me to get to follow your progress all over again. 

Is that bird droppings or do you have some acne to repair on the nose?


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## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

slurryguy said:


> Congratulations on the bouncing new baby. Stinks for you to be forced into a 2nd build, but great news for me to get to follow your progress all over again.
> 
> Is that bird droppings or do you have some acne to repair on the nose?


the white marks are dirt but on the nose its a freakin hole! didn't see it till I got home but it really would not have made any difference, Got a lot of junk out of the engine so far rad, battery cut most of the hoses off but need to spend some family time, will probably head out later to get er done. It is in really good shape and I am sure it will clean up quite nicely, heck I don't even think I will be ripping out the interior this time, I will look closer at potential rust under the carpet but if it looks OK to heck with it. I did do an electrical test and everything works perfectly (except the moon roof) That will be like the very last item I attack. my goal is to get it coverted first then do the cosmetics last. I dont suspect this build will take to long but we will see.


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## PatricioIN (Jun 13, 2008)

I like the Saturn better than the Storm... this will be a great thread to watch!


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## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

dudette said:


> Looking good Brian, looking good!
> Cops really like red too!
> dudette


no too worries about the cops its the DRUNKS that worry me!!!

B


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## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

PatricioIN said:


> I like the Saturn better than the Storm... this will be a great thread to watch!


Ya I am starting to myself this will be much less work heck not to much to do to the car so it will mailnly be just converting it, It is bigger inside than the storm and that is cool


Brian


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## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

Welll that wasn't so bad a couple hours and she's out
david why did you need the bolt taken out of the wheel? I just took the CV boots off at the engine side took off the 2 bolts on the shock that is attached to the wheel assembly and the joint came right apart? Any way I am sure you have it out by now. Now its time to clean up the mess tomorrow, threw down all the kitty litter absorbsion stuff. Good progress for day one.


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

I needed to remove the CV shafts in tact from the car. I still need to move the car around in case the shop is needed for work and the shafts would flop around possibly getting damaged.

Looks like you disconnected it right at the tripod. It works, but I wanted to keep them clean and in one piece. Besides, I can take my time because I don't have the parts here yet....

I'm hoping to have mine pulled tomorrow.


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## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

david85 said:


> I needed to remove the CV shafts in tact from the car. I still need to move the car around in case the shop is needed for work and the shafts would flop around possibly getting damaged.
> 
> Looks like you disconnected it right at the tripod. It works, but I wanted to keep them clean and in one piece. Besides, I can take my time because I don't have the parts here yet....
> 
> I'm hoping to have mine pulled tomorrow.


I knew ya must have had a reason that is a pretty good one,, I will need to do something with mine because I need to roll it out to power wash the engine compartment, front brake pads are in good shape, but the rotors are a little rough so I will take them off and give them a turn on the lathe. Looks like I can easily do 5 batteries across the fron sort of on top and forward of the main cross bar in the front area,, I want to get 7 batteries up fron and 5 in the trunk if I can do this I dont think I will need stiffer springs front or rear, There is a ton of room in the car for all the stuff and if I wanted to I am sure I could get 10 batteries up front but I want to keep the motot in open view like the Geo.

Well good luck on the rest of your removal tomorrow, I have a busy day at work tomorrow so not to sure what I will get done. Since the last conversion I bought an impact wrench its like 650 foot pounds,,,,,,,,,, wow it is a must have I tell ya.

Brian


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## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

so much for wishful thinkin on the clutch plates having the same spline pattern, not even close but on a good note the distance I have with the existing adaptor plate is perfect, just need to cut a new one. the rotors are not worth turning so I am off to the auto parts store for a set of new ones. Need to get these back on so I can clean the engine bay,, of course the hose is probably frozen so I will need to bring that inside to warm up first. Thats it so far today.

Brian


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## tj4fa (May 25, 2008)

It might behoove you to go ahead and buy replacement cv axles and replace the ones you have now while you have things apart.

I'm guessing the boots are about to fail (rubber looks a little dry and brittle) and you're going to need a front end alignment anyway after you put things together.

Autozone has some remanufactured ones you can buy online for $60- each axle and you could use the ones you have now for the core charge.

http://www.autozone.com/N,11200512//shopping/partTypeResultSet.htm


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## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

tj4fa said:


> It might behoove you to go ahead and buy replacement cv axles and replace the ones you have now while you have things apart.
> 
> I'm guessing the boots are about to fail (rubber looks a little dry and brittle) and you're going to need a front end alignment anyway after you put things together.
> 
> ...



Actually the boots as well as the CV joint are all in great shape they lived on a gravel road so you may be seeing alot of dust,,


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## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

Well here is the new rotors, pads looked very new so I left them in as well you won't believe this but I actually managed to weld the new clutch disc directly to the old coupler without even taking off the couple from the motor, You can see I used some pretty high tech line up tools to do this but let me tell ya once I got it lined up it is very obvious that it is perfect! Got the welding done but I need to clean it up and perhaps do some filling... That was too easy!!! schweeewww,


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## tj4fa (May 25, 2008)

rctous said:


> Actually the boots as well as the CV joint are all in great shape they lived on a gravel road so you may be seeing alot of dust,,


Cool...  I Just figured you should consider them before putting it all together.


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## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

tj4fa said:


> Cool...  I Just figured you should consider them before putting it all together.


 I am doing this on a budget and once you have these out once it is very easy to reinstall them later,, since I was not able to drive the car and turn a sharp corner I could not listen for any noise,, at this point I will reuse them and if need be replace them later. 

I cleaned up the weld as good as I am going to here is the final coupler DONE!! YEE HAWWW later tonight or tomorrow tackle the adaptor plate, I am going to try to use my old one,, the pattern is no where near close but I hope I can still use it somehow,, I guess I will see .

B


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## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

well the old plate is ove zero value to me I will pick up a piece of 3/16" steel plate tomorrow,, I hate cutting that stuff with a jig saw it just takes so long but it does do a nice job,, I was trying to save that 33 dollars. Oh well,, cars sitting out side tonight as I wait to thaw out the hose for the power washer, it did give me a chance to get the garage cleaned back up, I suppose I need to get some angle iron tomorrow for the battery trays but can't start on either of them till I get the motor and tranny back in. need at least 6 batteries up front prefer 7 but not sure how it will lay out.


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## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

Had a heck of a good day for 5 hours, would have gotten more done but had a school project to help out on. I power washed the engine bay its pretty clean and pushed the car back in the garage to warm it up . I actually have the motor engine plate finished, easy with the use of the old plate as a partial template. You can see I just vise gripped it to the new plate and drill the holes. These hole are basically for the 1" square stock I use as a spacer. I drilled in some line up hole (that is what the drill bit sticking up are) And finally drilled out the mounting holes. The final shot is the plate drying,, I hope it dries in a coupel hours because I still want to get the motor mainly back in tonight so I can start the battery boxes tomorrow, I am heading out of town this week end for a trade show,, darn it! If I were here I would probably be driving this thing by Sunday. Oh well I am sure I will be driving by next week (as long as all goes well) This time I am going to get the car working on electric first then turn around and do all the smaller items,, a bit backwards I know but what the heck.. get er done. Will post more later if the paint dries.


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## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

More pics of today

Brian

Ps notice on the second pic here you can see the steel plate on the little table,, notice the black paint? When I had it in position on the tranny and clamped where I wanted it I just spray painted the area with black paint,, much easier than trying to scribe it or something,, It worked very well


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

This is shaping up to be one of the fastest conversions of all time. I used that paint trick myself in the past. Works well. 

I only now have the fuel and exhaust system completely removed. Hope to start work on the battery boxes over the next few days.


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## PatricioIN (Jun 13, 2008)

Dude, seriously.. slow down. You're making the rest of us look bad.


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## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

Well I managed to get the motor and tranny in the car,,, I have one of the 4 motor mounts on and tightened up. Pulled the gas tank exhaust , and all that ather crap out as well, david85 I layed a square on the passenger side of the motor to show you the space thats left, you should be fine with a Warp 9,, got sore hands need a shower.

Great progress today! I bought the angle iron for the battery trays I will start them tomorrow, There is a ton of room up fron on this car so mabey 8 batteries up there, the fewer in the rear the better.

today about 7 hours total so far 17


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## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

david85 said:


> This is shaping up to be one of the fastest conversions of all time. I used that paint trick myself in the past. Works well.
> 
> I only now have the fuel and exhaust system completely removed. Hope to start work on the battery boxes over the next few days.


it is going very well so far and I hope the worst is over,, normally this is the hardest part

B

Ya the paint trick is very slick the first one I wasted alot of time with a scribe then try to see the line while your cutting


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## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

PatricioIN said:


> Dude, seriously.. slow down. You're making the rest of us look bad.


Need MY E CAR!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## slurryguy (Dec 16, 2008)

Nice work Brian. 

This build is going by in a blur. 

Wait what? He did what? where? Hunh?

I'd love a nitty gritty detailed description of how you did your coupler. Of course, you're spending all your time in the shop, so when do you have time to type about it?

LOL.


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## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

slurryguy said:


> Nice work Brian.
> 
> This build is going by in a blur.
> 
> ...


not been out there to to much 3 days 17 hours total less than 6 hours a day,, but I do come in once in a while for food and water,, and take breaks to post on the thread. I think my biggest motivator is this group,, it's just cool to have a group of friends that you have never met and probably never will and we all work together for one common goal,,,, git er done!!!!

B


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## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

david85 said:


> This is shaping up to be one of the fastest conversions of all time. I used that paint trick myself in the past. Works well.
> 
> I only now have the fuel and exhaust system completely removed. Hope to start work on the battery boxes over the next few days.


did you yank out all that aluminum heat shield crap?? That was worse than the gas tank!

B


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## slurryguy (Dec 16, 2008)

rctous said:


> not been out there to to much 3 days 17 hours total less than 6 hours a day,, but I do come in once in a while for food and water,, and take breaks to post on the thread. I think my biggest motivator is this group,, it's just cool to have a group of friends that you have never met and probably never will and we all work together for one common goal,,,, git er done!!!!
> 
> B


 
If the TV Show "Junkyard Wars" ever comes back, you should definitely apply to captain a team!


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

rctous said:


> did you yank out all that aluminum heat shield crap?? That was worse than the gas tank!
> 
> B


Yes!!!! I hated that stuff too LOL. The most efficient way to get rid of it I found is to just get mad and yank as hard as you can and it will rip at the rivets.


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## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

david85 said:


> Yes!!!! I hated that stuff too LOL. The most efficient way to get rid of it I found is to just get mad and yank as hard as you can and it will rip at the rivets.


yup did that as well used vise grips and yanked with them,, of course a hammer was also involved. Heck mine has over a 1/2 tank of gas in it,, I will por it into my 5 gal jugs for cutting lawn.


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## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

Davis Also did ya see the space left at the end of the motor?

B


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

Now see, I knew what I was doing with my car. I only had 2 liters of fuel left in the tank. I knew I was close to empty after driving the car 250 miles home, but dam I'm good! LOL

I did all my measurements with the engine still in the car. I don't think much has changed with it out, but there does seem to be tons of room for half of my battery bank under the hood. Why, what did you find?


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## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

david85 said:


> Now see, I knew what I was doing with my car. I only had 2 liters of fuel left in the tank. I knew I was close to empty after driving the car 250 miles home, but dam I'm good! LOL
> 
> I did all my measurements with the engine still in the car. I don't think much has changed with it out, but there does seem to be tons of room for half of my battery bank under the hood. Why, what did you find?


ther is tons of room under the hood.. in front and behind the motor,, it looks like I can get 5 on top of that frame bar, 2 behind the motor on the passenger side and if I go with 8 up front I will add one more sort of where the factory one was. The motor in my car is actually tipping forward quite a bit and it will rotate back a bit when I get the fial mounting done. One thing I do know is I am putting the pump for the brakes way far away from the firewall. Not sure where yet but like you said room is no issue up there.

B


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

Look behind the front corner of the bumper on the driver's side. get your head under the bumper corner and look up inside. I think you might find that it could be a good location for the vacuum pump. The other side is also wide open, but the carbon canister is there (not that you need it anymore).

The only catch is you would have to remove the bumper to access the vacuum pump should it ever need to be replaced. However, it would be literally the farthest you could place the pump from the passenger compartment and still have it inside the vehicle.

Yes, you are right about the room. I will have room for at LEAST 24 of the 48 200ah lithium cells under the hood. 12 where the rad used to be and another 12 against the firewall. There would still be room left in the original starting battery location as well as on top of the motor. I bet you were taken back when you first saw the cavern left behind by the radiator! The car has a nice long nose with lots of room up front.


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## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

david85 said:


> Look behind the front corner of the bumper on the driver's side. get your head under the bumper corner and look up inside. I think you might find that it could be a good location for the vacuum pump. The other side is also wide open, but the carbon canister is there (not that you need it anymore).
> 
> The only catch is you would have to remove the bumper to access the vacuum pump should it ever need to be replaced. However, it would be literally the farthest you could place the pump from the passenger compartment and still have it inside the vehicle.
> 
> Yes, you are right about the room. I will have room for at LEAST 24 of the 48 200ah lithium cells under the hood. 12 where the rad used to be and another 12 against the firewall. There would still be room left in the original starting battery location as well as on top of the motor. I bet you were taken back when you first saw the cavern left behind by the radiator! The car has a nice long nose with lots of room up front.


room is definately no issue I keep going out to look at it to see the lay out I also nee a charger per battery up there and of course it all has to look cool, Ya I yanked the carbon filter out today and your right theres a lot of room in the fenders for misc neat stuff I may toss my dc dc converter in there as well, I am getting a bigger one this time I will do a 45 amp one ,, the 30 amp was right at the limit of its output

Brian


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## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

slurryguy said:


> Nice work Brian.
> 
> This build is going by in a blur.
> 
> ...


alot of the coupler can be seen here in this thread page three you can start there thread #30 

http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showthread.php/brians-ev-conversion-build-thread-15586p3.html

brian


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

Actually in my case, I might have room to fit the spare tire under the hood. If I can get the 8" long BLDC motor then it would fit vertically at the end of the motor, otherwise it could be positioned flat on top.

I've seen the DC/DC converter location on another saturn conversion tucked in right under the brake master cylinder. Not sure what else that space would be good for but you certainly don't want the vacuum pump there!

I'm thinking there would be room for the vacuum brake resivior either in the fender, or even a long PVC pipe hung in the center tunnel where the tailpipe used to be. That certainly doesn't need to be within easy reach as its not a wear item and if under the car, there would be room for a nice big one. What else to do with that space. 

I just wish I knew what to do with the space left by the fuel tank. Seems a pity not to use it.

This car is bigger than it looks lol.


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## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

david85 said:


> Actually in my case, I might have room to fit the spare tire under the hood. If I can get the 8" long BLDC motor then it would fit vertically at the end of the motor, otherwise it could be positioned flat on top.
> 
> I've seen the DC/DC converter location on another saturn conversion tucked in right under the brake master cylinder. Not sure what else that space would be good for but you certainly don't want the vacuum pump there!
> 
> ...


I put the last reservoir under the car and the first one actually collapsed frpm the vaccuum, it I reinforced it and it is fine , I will reuse it . It is I think about 24 " long and 4" diameter, it all worked pretty well.


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## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

David did I mention I like this car??? I do!!!!

THANKS MAN!!!!!!!

Brian


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

Glad you like it. They seem to be a well made car other than the oil control problem the engines had (note how I did NOT say I told you so).

Did you use ABS or PVC for the vacuum chamber? What thickness? I was thinking of making one about 3' long out of 3 or 4 inch pipe. I wasn't expecting to have to re enforce it, thanks for the heads up on that.


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## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

david85 said:


> Glad you like it. They seem to be a well made car other than the oil control problem the engines had (note how I did NOT say I told you so).
> 
> Did you use ABS or PVC for the vacuum chamber? What thickness? I was thinking of making one about 3' long out of 3 or 4 inch pipe. I wasn't expecting to have to re enforce it, thanks for the heads up on that.


I used the thin stuff for the weight savings 

http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showthread.php/brians-ev-conversion-build-thread-15586p16.html

look at post 159

After adding the doughnuts spacers it works fine,, I think I had a combo of both Abs and PVC the thick wall probably would not collaps but it is heavy,, The final product was fine

Well its 1:00 pm and I am heading to the garage to get the motor monnted


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## Bottomfeeder (Jun 13, 2008)

What exactly do you do for a living? I want your day job! It's great to see you getting another EV so quickly. All of that experience from the first conversion really paid off, eh?

If the rain holds back I'll be able to work on my car tonight. I feel like a slug compared to you.


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## SirHenry (Jan 13, 2009)

Sounds like a heck of a job your doing on this Saturn. I have a noob question. What is the Vacuum Chamber for?


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## Qer (May 7, 2008)

SirHenry said:


> Sounds like a heck of a job your doing on this Saturn. I have a noob question. What is the Vacuum Chamber for?


You need a vacuum pump because the brakes are vacuum powered and that vacuum is usually taken from the air intake on the ICE. Since the ICE is removed you need to have a vacuum pump to power the power assisted brakes.

However, the brakes takes quite some power when you hit the pedal you don't want to dimension the vacuum pump after peak load. Thus you have a reservoir, a tank, "filled" (or something) with vacuum. That way the vacuum pump can be pretty small since it will have lots of time to "fill" the chamber.

I like the thought of filling a reservoir with nothing...


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## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

Well I have all the motor mounts done and the mototr tranny are mounted permanent, Now to tackle the 1/2 shaft , it will be a bit of a bugger.

I did not use the upper factory motor mount, it would have been a pretty big stretch for a piec of metal, lots of weight etc, I knda like the way this turned out, definatly solid yet "springy", heading back out.

PS yes I know the one bolt is bent down, won't have any ill effect but it bothers me too.


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## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

Bottomfeeder said:


> What exactly do you do for a living? I want your day job! It's great to see you getting another EV so quickly. All of that experience from the first conversion really paid off, eh?
> 
> If the rain holds back I'll be able to work on my car tonight. I feel like a slug compared to you.



basically we assemble battery packs for hobby stores and govt and colledges around the globe, Yes I love the jon this is our web page the nak=me cam fron my son Tanner and daughter Nickole cool huh www.tanicpacks.com

definatley the first one helped alot,, it took so long as I had to always wait on parts,, heck I have everything now I need! It makes all the difference.


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## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

SirHenry said:


> Sounds like a heck of a job your doing on this Saturn. I have a noob question. What is the Vacuum Chamber for?


Qer's reply was much better than mine

Brian


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## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

Hey Paul hope your watching this!!

Brian


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## d-bledsoe (May 22, 2008)

You're brian from tanic packs... small world i buy tanic lipos for my Maxi joker ap heli's from you... Any plans assembling some a123 cell packs for you're ev?

-Derek


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## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

d-bledsoe said:


> You're brian from tanic packs... small world i buy tanic lipos for my Maxi joker ap heli's from you... Any plans assembling some a123 cell packs for you're ev?
> 
> -Derek


Ya that be me,,,, dude I wished I could afford the cells,, if they were a dollar each I would do it but they are not,,,, thanks man for your support!!!!

bRIAN


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

Brian, Technologic managed to score what could the the next big step in LiFePO4 battery pricing. He will do testing like what I did, only more rigorous on a sample. The pricing puts the up front cost comparable to lead.

It still won't have the same raw power as a123 cells, but lets face it, you can only stuff so much power through the motor/controller anyway.

Here's the thread if you're interested:

http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showthread.php/just-received-quotation-lifepo-0-35-26535.html


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## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

david85 said:


> Brian, Technologic managed to score what could the the next big step in LiFePO4 battery pricing. He will do testing like what I did, only more rigorous on a sample. The pricing puts the up front cost comparable to lead.
> 
> It still won't have the same raw power as a123 cells, but lets face it, you can only stuff so much power through the motor/controller anyway.
> 
> ...


.3 C discharge rate ?? did I read that correctly? If so a 200 ah pack can only output 60 amps,, I will read on further? 

The front battery racks in the Saturn are going to be much more of a challenge than I anticipated,, I can only get 4 in the front area and that will require a bunch of work. I did get the frame done though now just to get it in the car.

Brian


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## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

OK I see its 3 c thats much better 600 amps is OK just need to do a 300AH pack

B


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

Yes, thats 3C constant, not 0.3. I am looking at online sales from the battery company that I worked with and they have since upgraded their ratings to 3C as well (mine is supposed to only be rated at 1C but I suspect it could take more).


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## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

david85 said:


> Yes, thats 3C constant, not 0.3. I am looking at online sales from the battery company that I worked with and they have since upgraded their ratings to 3C as well (mine is supposed to only be rated at 1C but I suspect it could take more).


Most lithium type batteries will do more than their rated out put , but by doing so you dramatically cut into cycle life,, 1C is scary low.


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

Considering its 200amps at 144V, its enough for most cruising situations. Peak is still 5C on mine and thats nearly twice the peak Hp my car came from factory with.

Thundersky strapps their cells, and I suspect thats how they can claim slightly higher C ratings.


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## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

what batteries are you using?


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

Lithium iron phosphate 200ah cells. Direct from mainland china from Zhuhai Sanchuan Electronic Technology Co.,Ltd. (I hate having to type that long name LOL).


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## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

slurryguy said:


> If the TV Show "Junkyard Wars" ever comes back, you should definitely apply to captain a team!



I loved that show!!!!


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## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

d-bledsoe said:


> You're brian from tanic packs... small world i buy tanic lipos for my Maxi joker ap heli's from you... Any plans assembling some a123 cell packs for you're ev?
> 
> -Derek


and you are my BEST customer,,, I assume the A123 packs are workin well for ya!

Brian


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## KCEV (Aug 12, 2008)

Looking good! I'll drop by with my EV to watch your magic. Today, with 60 degrees on my favor, I got 21 electric miles - not a great range compared to the 37 miles I used to get in the summer.


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## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

KCEV said:


> Looking good! I'll drop by with my EV to watch your magic. Today, with 60 degrees on my favor, I got 21 electric miles - not a great range compared to the 37 miles I used to get in the summer.


come by anytime, but I will probably give you a wrench ya know

Brian


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## d-bledsoe (May 22, 2008)

All my Tanic packs are working well. I still have some older 10s 7500mah tanic lipos that are a few years old and they run just like new in our AP jokers.


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## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

d-bledsoe said:


> All my Tanic packs are working well. I still have some older 10s 7500mah tanic lipos that are a few years old and they run just like new in our AP jokers.


Thats awesome man heck that only a 10-12 C pack!!!

its all about how ya take care of the pack

brian


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## drive the lightning (Jan 20, 2009)

so no clutch then? It seems a lot of people aren't running them, I'm debating if I should use one or not...

Like for reverse, do you just have to have the car stopped to shift into reverse without grinding gears? What gear for most driving (under 50) do you use?


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## bobgratonii (Jan 10, 2009)

For reversing, yes you will have to stop, then switch gear. If not done, you will blow up gears mesh. Most transmissions don't allow to go in reverse withtout going to neutral or 1th gear and don't go in when the internal gears are spinning too fast (it's that for my actual car to)é

The theory is that when relasing the preasure on the transmission from the ICE engine to the transmission for shifting, it reduces stress on the transmission. In fact, the transmission continue to ''turn'' while shifting. This is possible by the synchros. Then you push back the clutch which continue to transmit the power to the trans and then to the wheel.

You can, with a blown clutch (i mean going tho the garage ) shift witout using the clutch. Just release gaz put the gear to neutral, wait a lil for the RPM to be less agressive and put your next gear on. It just enter well when at the right RPM, again due to the syncro's work. The clutch is just a stress-less tool to maximise components life. 

For a electric engine, there is much less ... torque put into the trans. Well it is different as there is much less components involved into the movement of rotation. When changing gear you stop electric flow, which make the engine turn with his inertia force, turn to neutral, then change for next gear, then put back the juice. 

To have driven a friend's EV i found it easy and not anoying. No chushhses or ouchies noise! 

For driving to 50 mph 3th gear is cool, before that, the 2th is better to have a +/- 4000 rpm.


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## rfengineers (Jun 2, 2008)

drive the lightning said:


> so no clutch then? It seems a lot of people aren't running them, I'm debating if I should use one or not...
> 
> Like for reverse, do you just have to have the car stopped to shift into reverse without grinding gears? What gear for most driving (under 50) do you use?


My EV is clutchless. Shifting into reverse is easy, just take your foot off the throttle, wait a second, then slip it into reverse. You should wait for the car to stop, but sometimes I don't bother. If you hit the throttle while still rolling in a direction opposed to the gear you are in you will draw a BUNCH of current. BUNCH is a technical term, it means more that you shoud have .

It's a bad habit, but I normally shift into 3rd (my normal forward starting gear) while still rolling backwards after backing out of a parking space. I then ease on the throttle to reverse direction and drive off.

Basically, if your foot is off the throttle is it almost like being in neutral. There is no engine braking whatsoever.


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## PatricioIN (Jun 13, 2008)

I have to agree; it's very easy to drive without a clutch. In several hundred miles thus far in my clutchless EV, I have not once "ground" the gears. It does take about two seconds (depending on speeds) to switch from first to second, but no more time than normal from second to third. And you can "lightly" use the motor to stop a slow reverse roll to move forward or to hold the car in place on an incline if you want, though I don't do that often. The hardest habit to break is that you don't have to take it out of gear when coasting.. coasting in gear in an EV doesn't slow you down like an ICE.. so there is a bit more wear on the brakes than normal, but I doubt it's noticeable in terms of servicing. I think many people are reluctant to go clutchless until they've driven a clutchless EV just to prove to themselves how easy it is.

Most manual trannys (unless it's a finely tuned sports car) will allow you to easily shift between gears without using the clutch once you've started rolling. With an EV, you don't have the ICE there to keep you from shifting into first w/o the clutch, no idle. And frankly, going clutchless is less work and less weight.


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

Now having said all that, I will probably keep the clutch on mine. Its not needed, but I want to be able to fly through the gears at my discretion.


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## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

Well here is some of todays progress. Got the 1/2 shaft mounted and a couple racks made, Only getting 3 batteries up front under the nose then three above the motor (sort of) then will find room for 1 more up there, so I think there will be 7 up front and 5 in the rear, The 1/2 shaft went very smooth very similar to the last one,, They can be a bit of a buger though. Going out to dinner may come back and mount a battery tray or two, Stay tuned. LOL

Brian


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## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

drive the lightning said:


> so no clutch then? It seems a lot of people aren't running them, I'm debating if I should use one or not...
> 
> Like for reverse, do you just have to have the car stopped to shift into reverse without grinding gears? What gear for most driving (under 50) do you use?



no clutch thats right when you put it in reverse you are stopped, if it is tough just go into first then back into reverse, I use 2nd gear up to 45 mph. #rd up to 70 mph

Shifting wit out a clutch is very easy but you don't do much shifting, we use the car basically in town and rarley exceed 40 mph

Brian


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

I was wondering about the 1/2 shaft on the RH side as well. I like how you tied it to the motor and presumably kept it all on soft mounts. I would be a little concerned about wielding the bearing directly to the bracket though. If it were still bolted on, you could still replace the support bearing with another OEM part.


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## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

david85 said:


> I was wondering about the 1/2 shaft on the RH side as well. I like how you tied it to the motor and presumably kept it all on soft mounts. I would be a little concerned about wielding the bearing directly to the bracket though. If it were still bolted on, you could still replace the support bearing with another OEM part.


Oh its welded but to the bracket not the bearing, If I ever needed to replace it it would be very easy, cut off the bracket I made and weld it to the new one, very solid I actually just came back from dinner but am not heading back out but I did run the motor again all hooked up and it all runs smooth as silk. I will get the axles back in then I can at least move it in and out of the garage on 12 volts,, beats pushing it thats for sure. Will have the front racks done hopefully tomorrow before I leave town for the week end, 2 racks 3 batteries in each then 1 more somewhere up there,, then the back rack then its on to the wiring, I am hoping about 3 more working days before I can actually dirive it on 144 volts YEE HAWWW

brian


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## PatricioIN (Jun 13, 2008)

the driveshaft bracket looks very strong... you're going amazingly quickly. Good job.


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## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

PatricioIN said:


> the driveshaft bracket looks very strong... you're going amazingly quickly. Good job.


Ya it is very strong its 3/8 steel

this needs to be very strong

Yes its coming along nicely,, thanks

Brian


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## waldoz (Oct 1, 2008)

rctous said:


> OK here we go with EV build #2. Got the car home saftly with no issues at all. It is sitting in the garage warming up a bit. Took a few pics so far and later start attacking the engine reomval. I tried to start it but the motor tried to fire but just wouldn't. It has a 1/2 tank of gas so I will siphon that out and get all the other fluids out. I will post some pics of my progress later (if there is any).
> 
> Brian
> 
> of course my camera phone didn't seem to work for the pic of the car on the trailer (oh well)


I was just wondering what the rolling weight difference was between the two? 
Good Job on getting it done. I know with my race car sometimes I go for 15 hrs strait with out even batting a eye. Course the wife does not like that too much so it does not happen to often.


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## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

waldoz said:


> I was just wondering what the rolling weight difference was between the two?
> Good Job on getting it done. I know with my race car sometimes I go for 15 hrs strait with out even batting a eye. Course the wife does not like that too much so it does not happen to often.


the Saturn is a couple hundred pounds heavier, but really seams like a much bigger car, definately more interior room.

Brian


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## Bottomfeeder (Jun 13, 2008)

This is very bad news for Logisystems controller owners:
http://electricmopar.blogspot.com/2009/01/fail.html

I just got mine in the mail a couple of days ago, and I'm now a bit worried.


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

If this keeps up logisystem will get sued into oblivion. I am still hoping to get that nice BLDC setup, but if I have to go with a brushed motor, I will stay far away from logisystem, kelly, and the rest of the new startup controllers. The humble curtis it will be....


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## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

Bottomfeeder said:


> This is very bad news for Logisystems controller owners:
> http://electricmopar.blogspot.com/2009/01/fail.html
> 
> I just got mine in the mail a couple of days ago, and I'm now a bit worried.


great ,, i did not see when he got it back was it recent ? or do we know???

Brian


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## Bottomfeeder (Jun 13, 2008)

He got his returned last week, a day before I got mine in the mail. I can only imagine his profound disappointment. I've run across other people that seem to be satisfied with their refurbished Logisystems, so who knows. Maybe the guy is just really unlucky.


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## Qer (May 7, 2008)

Bottomfeeder said:


> He got his returned last week, a day before I got mine in the mail. I can only imagine his profound disappointment. I've run across other people that seem to be satisfied with their refurbished Logisystems, so who knows. Maybe the guy is just really unlucky.


Or they might run at a lower Voltage, he's running at 156 Volt after all. Or there's some other difference, like cabling, motor size or so that gives them enough margin for the controller to handle it.


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## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

Bottomfeeder said:


> He got his returned last week, a day before I got mine in the mail. I can only imagine his profound disappointment. I've run across other people that seem to be satisfied with their refurbished Logisystems, so who knows. Maybe the guy is just really unlucky.


well I guess I will find out pretty soon, (that does really stink)

brian


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## drive the lightning (Jan 20, 2009)

thanks everyone, Ill have to try some more with my fox. Nice progress


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## slurryguy (Dec 16, 2008)

Hey Brian, 

Looking good as usual. I have questions about your half shaft bracket. 

Is your half shaft being supported by your electric motor, or does that braket also mount somewhere to help support both the motor and the half shaft?

If you were to ever hit a nasty pothole, or badly curb the right front would it potentially put your motor at risk?

Will this induce more possible vibration back into the motor?

Please don't misinterpret my questions as implied criticizm. I've seen many motor mounts (on the web) that also served as half shaft supports in EVs, but I can't recall seeing any half shafts suspended from the motor. Anyhow, I honestly want to know the answers and understand it all better. (I'm NOT a car mechanic.)


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## d-bledsoe (May 22, 2008)

On a general ICE car the half shafts are suspended from just the motor, would it not work the same with an electric motor?


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## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

slurryguy said:


> Hey Brian,
> 
> Looking good as usual. I have questions about your half shaft bracket.
> 
> ...


yes it is completely supported by the motor as it needs to move with the motor, the stock mounts to the ice, so I basically mimmicked what was done originally. I do suppose a hard curbing could be an issue but a hard curbing would also be an issue in the ICE as well. 

Dude I apprieciate any criticizm on any thing I do any time ,,, thanks!!!!!

I never noticed any extra vibration before and now when I spin it up on 12 VDC its very smooth,,, I am not real sure how else you would do it,, I am comfortable with it for the strength and function.

Brian


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## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

d-bledsoe said:


> On a general ICE car the half shafts are suspended from just the motor, would it not work the same with an electric motor?


Yes it would as it must move with the motor,, where the shaft enters the transmission it does not wobble at all it must stay perfectly aligned with the motor at all time,, I guess a person could add a "U JOINT" then get away with mounting it solid to the frame, but that would require a ton of extra work.

Brian


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## slurryguy (Dec 16, 2008)

Tell you what, Brian, when I see you do something where I actually have some experience that is contrary to something you have done, maybe then I'll offer some criticizm. Until that day comes, I'll just stick to sucking your brain out of your ear and, keep my fat mouth shut until I actually know what the heck I'm doing.


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## slurryguy (Dec 16, 2008)

rctous said:


> great ,, i did not see when he got it back was it recent ? or do we know???
> 
> Brian


 
It appears he got his controller back within a week of the latest torching.

Read the blog posting just prior to the current one:
http://electricmopar.blogspot.com/2009/01/i-have-control.html


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## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

Not too much to report had to work the real job pretty hard the last couple days but tonight I did manage to make two of the front battery racks, each of them hold 3 batteries and I still need to make one more that will hold just one battery for the front, then to the rear tray, need to get the remaining 5 in there. I am hoping by the end of tomorrow I have the trays all in the car and ready to start doing some wiring. I will go out and get a couple pics of what I did today and post them shortly.

Brian


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## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

Here are the racks one as you can see is up front and low the one that is still drying goes above the motor and holds 3 more batteries, the last rack will be to the right of the tranny (I think) I will mount these in permanent tomorrow then the trunk.

Brian


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## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

Ok pretty good day so far, I have the front trays in and mounted as well as the rear tray. I wound up splitting the batteries up, 6 up front 6 in the rear, mainly for the room I need up front for all the other stuff yet to install. I put all the batteries in ( bought 2 more today) and I actually don't think it looks too low in the rear. What are your thoughts? The pics may be a bit decieving but for now I will go with it as it is. I am going out later after dinner and start on the under car wiring, and start mounting other stuff, (not sure what but there is still plenty of "stuff". Any way thats today so far I will post more later.

Brian


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## PatricioIN (Jun 13, 2008)

It's hard to tell from that angle, but it looks pretty good actually..


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## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

Also today I put the axles back in and was able to test all 5 transmission gears and confirmed they all work and so does reverse, (wheels in the air of course), always a good feeling there since I never knew for sure.

Brian


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## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

PatricioIN said:


> It's hard to tell from that angle, but it looks pretty good actually..


ya the back came up a bit after putting in the front batteries (well I think so) the picture of the drivers side had no batteries in the front,, the pic from the passenger side has all 12 batteries in the car.

I will get better pics later

brian


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## Bottomfeeder (Jun 13, 2008)

Simply amazing. When do you plan on the first test drive?


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## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

Bottomfeeder said:


> Simply amazing. When do you plan on the first test drive?


this week end,,, the weather is so post to be near 60 degrees,,, Perfect. I am going out now to mont the vaccumm pump and mabey a few chargers, I got my caroet I ordered last week , the chargers will take a while

Brian


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## ClintK (Apr 27, 2008)

Bottomfeeder said:


> Simply amazing.


I second that! You'll be back on the road in no time!


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

ClintK said:


> I second that! You'll be back on the road in no time!


+3.....this is easily the fastest build thread ever on the forum.

Looks like the rear trunk structure is identical to the sedan that I have. Mark that info down for the archive.......

How is the car coping with the weight?


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## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

david85;98676
How is the car coping with the weight?[/QUOTE said:


> so far I think it looks OK,,, I like my cars lower any way ,, it will match my Magnum this way, but it needs to be the same front and rear and so far it looks OK,, I will see how it settles I hope its OK
> 
> Brian


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## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

Ok got the vaccumm pump mounted and also mounted the resiovior up front behind the bumper perfect spot for it there. Made the bracket to hold the controller and I am re-using the old controller board needed some work though, as you can see its now in primer,, besides I didn't have the white paint. Looks like the length of wires I had before will not need to be changed either from the rear to the front,, need to rework the emergency disconnect system I had doesn't look like it will work but I had to stop planning stuff on work time so I picked another project. Now I have time to think it through and figure it out. When I am in the garage its "get er done" time the planning needs to be done in the house.

Brian


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## lottos (Jun 22, 2008)

Looking good Brian, but no-one has asked you the hard question yet - did you retain and can you use the 'EV' hubcaps from the previous EV wheels?


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## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

lottos said:


> Looking good Brian, but no-one has asked you the hard question yet - did you retain and can you use the 'EV' hubcaps from the previous EV wheels?


not really there is no center hub on the Saturn wheels,, one of them also got pretty smashed up from the crash.

Brian


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## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

Pretty good day today got most of the stuff in the front of the car and sort of kind of wired in, my dc to dc convertor showed up at noon just like clock work so I found a nice high place to mount it. Plugged it into 120 VAC and gave the car a test, as you can see it works fine. The 6 chargers up front are going to be pretty cool, you can see how I have them laid out on top of the forward 3 batteries, well how do ya service those cells you ask? It tips back out of the way for easy wattering, then back into position for normal use, again very high up and I will be sure to block off any potential water source from getting them wet. The chargers and the dc to dc convertor need to stay bone dry always. Tomorrow I will start on the rear charger locations and get them started, heck after that thats about alll I should need to go for a ride, we will see.

Brian


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## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

the final shot of the day under the hood. then a few more coats of white on the charger board tonight and I think thats all.

brian


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## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

Just a quick up date for today so far. I mounted the Geo gas pedal in with the Pot bax attached, that was very easy, waiting for the paint to dry for the controll board with the contactors and relays on it,, simplified it quite a bit as the DC too DC will be on constant so no 12 volt battery at all for the car. 
Got the charger rack in the front and if ya look closely the front 3 batteries are in charge mode,, all is good, My insurance rep just called I am getting insurance papers faxed over so I will be legal tomorrow for the streets!!!!!,, need to start the rear trunk stuff now and keep moving forward,


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## d-bledsoe (May 22, 2008)

Brian, Have you thought about putting some vibration dampening pads between your key electrical parts, like chargers, ESC, ect? Things that have complex ic boards in them that could rattle loose as your drive over the months and years to come.

Being an electric car there is going to be a lot less vibration but i'd still figure you'd see a bit of vibration in the engine area from variations in road surface. Perhaps its not needed but something to isolate the key IC's from vibration may help.. or may do nothing.


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## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

d-bledsoe said:


> Brian, Have you thought about putting some vibration dampening pads between your key electrical parts, like chargers, ESC, ect? Things that have complex ic boards in them that could rattle loose as your drive over the months and years to come.
> 
> Being an electric car there is going to be a lot less vibration but i'd still figure you'd see a bit of vibration in the engine area from variations in road surface. Perhaps its not needed but something to isolate the key IC's from vibration may help.. or may do nothing.


not really given it much thought,, all the chargers and the controller ar mounted to the frame of the car so I would suspect there will be little vibration,, good point lots of extra work thats for sure.

brian


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## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

Well darn it comes down to three 2/0 ga terminals/ lugs I need three that is I had some here but not enough and rest assured your local Ace hardware or Lowes carries nothing like that, (I looked tonight) but basically all that is left is one series connection up front and hook the main leads up to the back set of packs, all chargers are done charging all 12 batteries so they are ready. When I bought the 2 batteries the other day I stood in the battery store staring at the lugs knowing darn well I would need them but did I buy them HECK NO!!! now first thing in the AM its a trip to that store and of course its a few miles away as well,,, oh well I needed to quit any way I am BURNT! Need lots of details like a good cleaning of all the batteries chargers carpet in the trunk where there is none, but those can wait I want to drive it,, assuming all goes well tomorrow is the day, I have about an hour or less to have it all connected and see if it all works(fingers crossed) Talk at ya later!!!

brian


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

Brian, you are a freakin' machine!!!!

I don't know how you did everything so fast, but kudos to you. I am impressed


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## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

david85 said:


> Brian, you are a freakin' machine!!!!
> 
> I don't know how you did everything so fast, but kudos to you. I am impressed


Ya its nearly done but wait till ya see the mess I have going on in the garage,,never stopped to much for cleaning, but for ir to roll out on its own full power to clean under neath it makes it all worth it to me.

Ya this all went pretty smooth,, as long as the controller holds up were good to go.

Brian


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## tj4fa (May 25, 2008)

rctous said:


> Well darn it comes down to three 2/0 ga terminals/ lugs I need three that is I had some here but not enough and rest assured your local Ace hardware or Lowes carries nothing like that...


I found that our local Carquest had terminal lugs when I needed one for one that I had screwed up.

Our local Air Gas supplier has welding supplies as well (like 2/0 cable).


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## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

tj4fa said:


> I found that our local Carquest had terminal lugs when I needed one for one that I had screwed up.
> 
> Our local Air Gas supplier has welding supplies as well (like 2/0 cable).


great Idea perhaps I will make a call or two first,, its not too bad its like 20 miles away to the battery place,, I don't think we have a carquest???


Brian


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## Bottomfeeder (Jun 13, 2008)

When those batteries are low, each of those chargers will pull about 3A at 110V. Do you have problems with that? I am going to face problems eventually.

I am considering a simple relay circuit that charges half at a time. It will switch back and forth about every 15 minutes or so. Sure it will slow down the charging, but I'd like to take advantage of opportunity charging if I can. And of course, I can set it to charge all of them if I have the juice.

Great work, by the way.


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## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

On the road again!!!!!! YYYYYYYYYEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE frikin HHHHHHHAAAWWWWWWWWWW

controller works awesome (so far) much smoother acceleration than befor, hardly any heat (no fan on yet.) need to wire in the relay for the brakes and tidy up lots of stuuf bur it works and so far works very well,,, 5.4 EV miles and counting!!!!!

Here is the pics of the car out of the garage I think the height is just fine!!!

Brian


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## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

Bottomfeeder said:


> When those batteries are low, each of those chargers will pull about 3A at 110V. Do you have problems with that? I am going to face problems eventually.
> 
> I am considering a simple relay circuit that charges half at a time. It will switch back and forth about every 15 minutes or so. Sure it will slow down the charging, but I'd like to take advantage of opportunity charging if I can. And of course, I can set it to charge all of them if I have the juice.
> 
> Great work, by the way.


I have a 220 VAC outlet I use to charge with so the current is 1/2 that of 110 VAC. no issues yet

Brian


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## peggus (Feb 18, 2008)

Shit, 12 days from glider to running EV.

Must be a record!

Nice work!


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

The stance of the car looks perfect. I wouldn't change anything.


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## TheSGC (Nov 15, 2007)

Amazing. 12 days, your just a monster! I had 35 days of vacation and you wanna know what I did to my EV? I half-installed a PakTrakr. I blame it on not having a garage....

BTW, what are you using to hold down the batteries?


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## PatricioIN (Jun 13, 2008)

yes, as this build went by so fast, you'll have to take a lot of finished pics once you've got it all together and completed. This will be one great garage entry. How is the performance compared to the Storm?


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

I bet some of the wields on the battery racks were still warm when he drove it


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## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

TheSGC said:


> Amazing. 12 days, your just a monster! I had 35 days of vacation and you wanna know what I did to my EV? I half-installed a PakTrakr. I blame it on not having a garage....
> 
> BTW, what are you using to hold down the batteries?


nothing yet I willl do that tomorrow (batterie that is)

12 days and I was out of town last weekend for 2 of them

so noce to be on the road again

brian


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## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

PatricioIN said:


> yes, as this build went by so fast, you'll have to take a lot of finished pics once you've got it all together and completed. This will be one great garage entry. How is the performance compared to the Storm?


way better performance, heck I squeeled the tires a couple times , I have yet to adjust the controller either,, soon enough. The extra voltage is nice and the extra 250 amps on the controller helps too I am sure.

Brian


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## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

david85 said:


> I bet some of the wields on the battery racks were still warm when he drove it


Hey Dave I am having one issue I hope you can mabey help me out with,, the speedo??? There were two plugs in the tranny, one on top and that is for reverse lights, that works just fine the other plug is low neer the 1/2 shaft on the firewall side... it is a 2 wire plug yellow and purple wires,, hooked them up no speedo??? I wonder if one of the other 100 wires i cut off may have an impact on it? I will do some Googling to see if I can find a schematic.

put on another 10 -12 miles tonight had a buddy drive it, he has a converted S10 but likes my car better. This one rides so nice since I didn't add monster springs to the rear,, and the ride height is just fine.

Seems I have 1 charger acting up ( here I go again) but I will try tweeking it first. Got the brakes working that is nice, non power brakes is hard. Washed it to get the layes of gravel dust off it,, needs a good waxing but all in good time , I am happy to be able to drive it. Love this EV thing we do here!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Brian

Dave let me know if you come up with something on the speedo,, (thanks in advance)


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## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

david85 said:


> The stance of the car looks perfect. I wouldn't change anything.


I agree it may be slightly lower but I like that I hate high cars

Brian


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

The speedo signal goes through the factory PCM BEFORE reaching the cluster display. Is the engine computer still in the car and powered? if not, the speedo will not work. I don't know if it might be possible to bypass the computer and go direct to the cluster though....


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## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

david85 said:


> The speedo signal goes through the factory PCM BEFORE reaching the cluster display. Is the engine computer still in the car and powered? if not, the speedo will not work. I don't know if it might be possible to bypass the computer and go direct to the cluster though....


ya the computer is still in the car I did nothing at all to it,, what I do find interesting is the "check engine lite" does not come on? The SRS system light comes on for a few seconds the goes out ( just like it should) I wonder if the speedo wire needs a sorce of power from part of the harness ???

Brian


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## KCEV (Aug 12, 2008)

*Just returned from visiting Brian: great job! 
I'm impressed by how fast Brian put together this electric vehicle; it still needs some work, but, hey I went for a ride in it, and what a difference with my EV S10. 
My next EV will be built by Brian, no doubt about it  *


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

Can you tell me again what year your car is?


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## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

david85 said:


> Can you tell me again what year your car is?


97 SC

brian


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

k, I'll see if I can find anything.


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## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

david85 said:


> k, I'll see if I can find anything.



I checked Google but so far nothing

Thanks man!!!


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

First thing is to check the sensor itself. Here are the instructions from my haynes manual:

*"To check the vehicle speed sensor, remove the electrical connector in the wiring harness near the sensor. Using a volt meter, check for signal voltage to the sensor. The signal wire should have 10V or more available. If there is no voltage available, have the PCM diagnosed by a dealer service department or other repair shop (< dealer, yeah right!!!)."*

Well it is after all an el-cheapo haynes manual. I'm going to post some questions on a saturn forum where I am on sometimes. They might also have some ideas.

I noticed the wires in this car are rather light gauge and I wonder if any of them may have been damaged during the conversion. Also try checking for resistance between the two wires that go direct to the VSS.

In earlier photos you posted, I noticed the hot red wire that connects the starting battery to the rear of the under hood junction box was simply cut. I would guess you re routed that wire to a 12V source again, right?

Don't worry, we'll figure it out.


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## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

david85 said:


> First thing is to check the sensor itself. Here are the instructions from my haynes manual:
> 
> *"To check the vehicle speed sensor, remove the electrical connector in the wiring harness near the sensor. Using a volt meter, check for signal voltage to the sensor. The signal wire should have 10V or more available. If there is no voltage available, have the PCM diagnosed by a dealer service department or other repair shop (< dealer, yeah right!!!)."*
> 
> ...



well thanks so far I will see if there is voltage going in ,,, can I simply add voltage to one of the wires? Which one? I am sure thats important. Yes I cut the main red wire off when I took out the factory battery, it is now nicely soldered up to the dc convertor.

I assume the speedo worked before but I do not know for sure.

I am more interested in using it to track the miles more than I am the speed


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## PatricioIN (Jun 13, 2008)

rctous said:


> way better performance, heck I squeeled the tires a couple times , I have yet to adjust the controller either,, soon enough. The extra voltage is nice and the extra 250 amps on the controller helps too I am sure.
> 
> Brian


that's fantastic.. I'm really thinking ahead to my next conversion. But man, I don't think anyone will beat you for sure speed and determination! You've done a great job. Next time I pass through Kansas.....


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## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

PatricioIN said:


> that's fantastic.. I'm really thinking ahead to my next conversion. But man, I don't think anyone will beat you for sure speed and determination! You've done a great job. Next time I pass through Kansas.....


stop by any time we will convert a car while your here!

Brian


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

rctous said:


> can I simply add voltage to one of the wires? Which one?


I'm honestly not sure, the schematic in my book refers the the green wire as "VSS out" and is connected between the PCM and the cluster display. But there should be more info there that is not shown. The more detailed schematics only go to 1995 FYI, don't buy this manual RRRRR.

Don't wire any power in until you are sure you know whats going on. Would suck to end up burning something.


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## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

david85 said:


> First thing is to check the sensor itself. Here are the instructions from my haynes manual:
> 
> *"To check the vehicle speed sensor, remove the electrical connector in the wiring harness near the sensor. Using a volt meter, check for signal voltage to the sensor. The signal wire should have 10V or more available. If there is no voltage available, have the PCM diagnosed by a dealer service department or other repair shop (< dealer, yeah right!!!)."*
> 
> ...


I wonder if it as simple as "grounding the transmission?? It is really all mounted to rubber???
well I guess through the bearings perhaps just a thought.
Brian


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

rctous said:


> I wonder if it as simple as "grounding the transmission?? It is really all mounted to rubber???
> well I guess through the bearings perhaps just a thought.
> Brian


Try it, you have nothing to loose.


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## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

david85 said:


> I'm honestly not sure, the schematic in my book refers the the green wire as "VSS out" and is connected between the PCM and the cluster display. But there should be more info there that is not shown. The more detailed schematics only go to 1995 FYI, don't buy this manual RRRRR.
> 
> Don't wire any power in until you are sure you know whats going on. Would suck to end up burning something.


Ya I am in no big hurry as long as it drives fine I'm good. Surley want ti to work though,, hope you don't have the same issue????



Brian


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## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

david85 said:


> Try it, you have nothing to loose.


Ya I will try tomorrow


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

I think I might have it. This is courtesy of one of the saturn gurus on the other forum:



> _There's one ground on the back of the engine (it has a tan wire with a ring terminal) that's for the PCM. If it isn't connected, technically the PCM doesnt turn on._


I actually remember that ground wire and its still in tact in my car. Let me know if any of the ideas so far work.


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## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

david85 said:


> I think I might have it. This is courtesy of one of the saturn gurus on the other forum:
> 
> 
> 
> I actually remember that ground wire and its still in tact in my car. Let me know if any of the ideas so far work.


I will check I played with lots of the wires today and did ground the tranny, I got an extra 4 volts after grounding the tranny of course I did cut the mail harness to get rid of all the extra wire but I will search out the tan wire,, again thanks for all the help on this.

Brian


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

Its starting to make sense now. 

My wiring diagram for 1995 shows at least 3 wires from the PCM that are grounded on the engine block near the starter. In my 1996, I remember there were several engine grounds located at 3 locations at least. One on each of the top 2 bolts of the transmission bell housing, and another bolt on the firewall side of the engine (the one previously mentioned was located on the back of the engine). If you can find those ground wires and reconnect them, I think you will have it fixed.

I was also told that it might be possible to bypass the PCM and feed the VSS signal directly into the speedometer if all else fails. Fixing the grounds would still be easier though.


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## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

david85 said:


> Its starting to make sense now.
> 
> My wiring diagram for 1995 shows at least 3 wires from the PCM that are grounded on the engine block near the starter. In my 1996, I remember there were several engine grounds located at 3 locations at least. One on each of the top 2 bolts of the transmission bell housing, and another bolt on the firewall side of the engine (the one previously mentioned was located on the back of the engine). If you can find those ground wires and reconnect them, I think you will have it fixed.
> 
> I was also told that it might be possible to bypass the PCM and feed the VSS signal directly into the speedometer if all else fails. Fixing the grounds would still be easier though.


Ok I will do that

Thanks again


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## Hondacrzy (Mar 15, 2008)

Brian I will attach this picture of the wiring diagram, the sensor is a 2 wire sensor, that makes it a simple a/c signal generator,. If you have a a/c hertz scale on you meter you should be able to put your leads across the 2 wires and see a a/c voltage or hertz signal as you drive. I will try to find all the ground points from the pcm. I don't think you can bypass the computer

Cheers
Chris


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## Hondacrzy (Mar 15, 2008)

Here are the PCM diagrams, I will try to pinpoint the Grounds.

Cheers
Chris

If they are too small I can Email you the Pics, PM me

Chris


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## Hondacrzy (Mar 15, 2008)

A couple more.

Cheers Chris


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## Hondacrzy (Mar 15, 2008)

Here are the ground points. Hope it helps. Great job by the way! My conversion took me 6 months. Mostly waiting for parts though.

Cheers 
Chris


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## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

Thanks Honda crazy for all the info I sent you a PM

Brian


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## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

Been fussing around with the chargers still,, finally gave up on them,, I like the idea of seperate chargers per battery but it just isn't working well for me. If any one is interested in in all 12 of my chargers I will sell them all for $650.00 that is 55 bucks each, they all work 2-3 of them need adjustment, most people know what I have gone through on these chargers so understand this before considering them. If a person were to take the time to tweak them they would be just fine. Bottomfeeder adjusted all of his without to much issue, if your interested in the lot of them PM me. I do not want to piece them out I would rather get rid of all 12 at once. these sell for 90 bucks each so this is a heck of a deal.

Other than that the weather is cold and I have not done too much latley to the car, went to get it inspected yesturday and of course they close at 3:30 and I was there at 3:40,, oh well.

Brian

this is the charger I just bought

http://www.cloudconversions.com/inc/sdetail/1720


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## rfengineers (Jun 2, 2008)

rctous said:


> this is the charger I just bought
> 
> http://www.cloudconversions.com/inc/sdetail/1720


Hey, that looks exactly like the Kelly charger I bought, except mine is dual voltage. Plug it into 110VAC and it charges my 120V pack at 10 Amps. Plug it into 230VAC and it charges at 20 Amps.


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## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

rfengineers said:


> Hey, that looks exactly like the Kelly charger I bought, except mine is dual voltage. Plug it into 110VAC and it charges my 120V pack at 10 Amps. Plug it into 230VAC and it charges at 20 Amps.


wow I like that better do you have a link to that charger?

Brian


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## rfengineers (Jun 2, 2008)

rctous said:


> wow I like that better do you have a link to that charger?
> 
> Brian


I ordered it special. I assume now that they have it designed they can produce one for you without the long wait I endured.

Several notes:
My battery pack is 120 Volts. I assume that the charge current for your 144 Volt pack will be a bit less than mine?
The charger came with two power cords. You MUST make sure that the 120/230 Volt switch is in the correct position before you plug the cord in, otherwise you will let the magic smoke out!
The unit does not have a switch for balance charging! We are still trying to figure that one out.
The 230V power cord came with a non-US-Standard plug. I just cut it off and replaced it with a 30-Amp dryer plug.

Send Email to Steven or Jane at <[email protected]> and tell them you want a charger like the one they made for RFEngineers in Florida.

Joe


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

Special? whats so special about automatic dual input voltage?

The chinese made charger that came with my lithium sample battery doesn't even have a switch on the outside. You just plug it into either 110-120V or 220-240V and it automatically does its thing. Auto detect for 50 or 60 Htz as well. I expect the fullsize battery to have a similarly equipped charger.

I have no doubt that such chargers are available for lead acid batteries.


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## rfengineers (Jun 2, 2008)

david85 said:


> Special? whats so special about automatic dual input voltage?


Special order, meaning they did not have it in their catalog. I told them what I wanted and they made it special. Wouldn't that make you feel special.


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## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

rfengineers said:


> I ordered it special. I assume now that they have it designed they can produce one for you without the long wait I endured.
> 
> Several notes:
> My battery pack is 120 Volts. I assume that the charge current for your 144 Volt pack will be a bit less than mine?
> ...


 I just talked to Steven and decided to get this one https://www.kellycontroller.com/shop/?mod=product&cat_id=11,32&product_id=298

exactly the same as the other I ordered but 200 bucks cheaper (I cancelled the other one)

Thanks for your input.

Brian


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## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

wow this really ercked me. I ordered the original charger from Cloud EV which is also Cloud Electric which is also beepscom,, they have the same charger on two of their sites for 2 different prices I let them know and they were giving me the 20 dollar difference, this was no big deal then I found the Kelly version (exact same charger) (thanks to rfengineers) for $200.00 less, ya 200 bucks so I called back Cloud EV or beepscom or what ever they were, and talked to them about this and of course they couldn't match the price so I cancelled the order. Check out this e-mail they sent back to me

"Your order has been canceled and we have removed you from purchasing with us again. You need to do your research before you place orders. We have spent a lot of time and effort on your order and do not appreciate customers that cancel orders after placing them."

I have been placed on their Shi%$#%$ list for this??? I guess they do not want customers very bad,, blows me away that they went to this degree. Or is it just me? What do they expect? 200 bucks!!!!! They say alot of work went into placing the order? We take orders all day long here and it ain't that big of a deal, we also have people cancelling orders occasionally and we gladly do and we end the conversation with " I hope we can help you some how in the future , please let us know",, never would I tell them to take a hike and never order from me again!! What crappy customer service (or lack there of) these businesses have. Again UNREAL!

brian


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## rfengineers (Jun 2, 2008)

Brian,

First, ask about the shipping cost for the charger. Mine came from China and the shipping cost $159!

Second, I guess Cloud EV has so many customers and is making so much money that they can afford to blow you off. Talk about burning bridges!

Joe


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## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

rfengineers said:


> Brian,
> 
> First, ask about the shipping cost for the charger. Mine came from China and the shipping cost $159!
> 
> ...


shipping was 50 bucks,, grand total was $639.00

ya must be nice not to need customers.

Brian


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

I had my reasons to be a little suspicous of cloud/beeps already, and this is all I need to hear to never do business with them.

I'm a business man too and this is quite possibly the worst thing they could have done. I'll admit to dealing with some customers that tested my patience in the past, but what you did was what any remotely intilligent buyer would have done. You even gave them the chance to match the price! Their reaction was very dissapointing.


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## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

david85 said:


> I had my reasons to be a little suspicous of cloud/beeps already, and this is all I need to hear to never do business with them.
> 
> I'm a business man too and this is quite possibly the worst thing they could have done. I'll admit to dealing with some customers that tested my patience in the past, but what you did was what any remotely intilligent buyer would have done. You even gave them the chance to match the price! Their reaction was very dissapointing.


now in all fairness to them I believe this is the second time I cancelled an order from them,, when I was buying parts for the first EV the site never mentioned the part I ordered would not be availiable for a at least 10 days or so, I believe it was for the guages or a shunt , pretty common parts I thought so I cancelled that as well and learned that it is best to call first and ask them if it is on the shelf,, when we order something we want it now or at least in a reasonable time frame,, here is another e-mail I received after the first one... I still cannot belive the attitude,,I never like to slam on vendors but I belive this is worth it to warn you all.


"If you read what I said was. You should do your research before you place your orders so you don't create a situation that wastes a lot of a companies resources and then just cancel your order. You may also realize extra shipping costs associated by placing an order directly with a China company. Hope you will be able to find another company that you can waste their time. This is the second order that you cancel with us and we won't do it again."

I think its unbelievable!!!!!!

Brian

PS the China company I ordered it from was Steve at Kelly controllers in Illinois!!!!!


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## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

Doing some clean up under the hood and added some embroidery work to it as well. Nice to own a compuerized embroidery machine. The pics really do this no justice it looks awesome in real life.

now to work on the speedo

brian


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## Bottomfeeder (Jun 13, 2008)

You can almost hear a chorus of angels singing while that hood is up.


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## PatricioIN (Jun 13, 2008)

dude, that is just wrong.. now I have a burning desire to take the seat backs off my seats and embroider "OHMer" in them....


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## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

Bottomfeeder said:


> You can almost hear a chorus of angels singing while that hood is up.


ya its starting to look good under there.


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## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

got the speedo workin yeeeeeeeeeee hawwwwwwwww thanks david anc chris the diagrams were the ticket,, unfortunately not only does the speedo work but so does the "check engine lite" low fuel light, and a couple more I will probably just pull the bulbs from the dash,,, again THANKS GUYS YOU ROCK!!!!

Brian


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## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

PatricioIN said:


> dude, that is just wrong.. now I have a burning desire to take the seat backs off my seats and embroider "OHMer" in them....


it certainly personalizes things,,, I am getting new floor mats tonight and I may try to embroider them as well, not sure that I have the right needle and trying to hoop it will also be a huge issue but I may try. That would be cool!

Brian


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## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

also got the dash lights out very easily by just taking the top of the dash off, it gave me just enough room to sort of "persuade" the lites out of their old home. Also managed to get rid of the daytime running lights, there is a relay under the hood that controlled them, but this also makes the little blue light in the dash quit,, I figure I will wait for David to figure his out then hope he shares????

Brian


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

Ah, Cool! So the ground was the only problem with the speedometer?

Check engine light LMAO!!!! Yup its checked alright, same with the fuel tank!!!!!!!! HAHA!

For the DRL what you can try instead is to simply remove the DRL bulbs right from the headlight. I'll have to double check but I believe the DRLs use their own bulbs that serve no purpose for the low or high beams. DRLs are not supposed to have the same intensity as normal night driving headlights. That way the relay can stay connected and keep doing its obscure job in the car.


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## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

OK Patrick just for you. These so far are turning out well. The first pic is of it all on the machine,, had to do some creative mounting, I will take more pics as I get them all done.

Brian


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## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

david85 said:


> Ah, Cool! So the ground was the only problem with the speedometer?
> 
> Check engine light LMAO!!!! Yup its checked alright, same with the fuel tank!!!!!!!! HAHA!
> 
> For the DRL what you can try instead is to simply remove the DRL bulbs right from the headlight. I'll have to double check but I believe the DRLs use their own bulbs that serve no purpose for the low or high beams. DRLs are not supposed to have the same intensity as normal night driving headlights. That way the relay can stay connected and keep doing its obscure job in the car.


 OK I will look at the lights I just assumed it was the same bulb,, either way I knew you would have an answer LOL,, as usual thanks,, not sure what ground it was I just put them all together and soldered them all up. works great.

Brian


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## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

here is the completed set
Well now my Wal Mart 14.88 floor mats are worth at least 19.99

Brian

They turned out very well!


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

Well I looked at my car today and it might not be as I thought. There are only 2 headlight bulbs and neither are dual filament so I may have been wrong on that.

But there has to be a simple way to disable the DRLs without it affecting anything else.

Floor mats look great.


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## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

david85 said:


> Well I looked at my car today and it might not be as I thought. There are only 2 headlight bulbs and neither are dual filament so I may have been wrong on that.
> 
> But there has to be a simple way to disable the DRLs without it affecting anything else.
> 
> Floor mats look great.


I thought I did at least take a peak when they were on like i said the only thing that doesn't work is the little blue lite in the dash and by the way the e brake if it is on the DRL go off when the brake is off the lites come on,, the brake lite in the dash and the little blue lite toggle back and forth opposite each other,, as soon as ya figure it out let me know as it is low on my list but it is a peave I would like to resolve.

Brian


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

Hey look what I found:

http://revver.com/video/661653/disengage-daytime-runing-lights-drl-on-98-02-saturn/

Yours is a 97' so perhaps it would be safer to maybe try and tape the pin shown in the video to break the circuit instead of cutting it off or bending it sideways. Just to see if it works.

Can't try it on my car because theres no battery or engine in it at the moment.

I also heard that the passenger side headlight and possibly fog lights would not work if the relay was removed completely.


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## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

david85 said:


> Hey look what I found:
> 
> http://revver.com/video/661653/disengage-daytime-runing-lights-drl-on-98-02-saturn/
> 
> ...


I may look at that,, I do not have fog lights but I did check and everything else works normally. OK so I just watched the video pin #86 is the coil part of the relay so yes I understand what he has done but with the relay out I have the exact same resault,, The light I was referring to I guess it was green and it is gone, I see no other effect in the car at all with it out,, That relay can never turn on now whats the difference if it stays in? Perhaps pin 30 and 87A are hooked to somethng but the DRL were hooked up to pin 87 which only sees contact to 30 if the relay is energized. I just left the relay underneath the cover and screwed it back on, If I ever notice something I may look at plan B

Brian

Great find though ya got to love the internet!!!!!


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## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

Georgous day today should get over 70 degrees just awesome for Feb here in Kansas so I took the opportunity to get some good daylite pics of the car (and also change my avatar) it is lookin good!

Brian

now to work on the trunk.

went for a small cruise I know have 1.2 unooficial miles on the odometer!!


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## Harold in CR (Sep 8, 2008)

That's really looking good. Fast conversion, also.


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## PatricioIN (Jun 13, 2008)

that looks very good. Are you considering raising the rear end up at all? Maybe you could find some oem springs that are the same hieght, # of coils, etc.. but with slightly higher spring rates? I go back and forth about getting my new springs.. sometimes I think it looks fine and other times I think it looks "tired" in the rear end. Overall, your 2nd conversion is fantastic.

After all was said and one with the insurance for the first one, and the costs for this one, how much do you think you've spent on the EV?


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## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

PatricioIN said:


> that looks very good. Are you considering raising the rear end up at all? Maybe you could find some oem springs that are the same hieght, # of coils, etc.. but with slightly higher spring rates? I go back and forth about getting my new springs.. sometimes I think it looks fine and other times I think it looks "tired" in the rear end. Overall, your 2nd conversion is fantastic.
> 
> After all was said and one with the insurance for the first one, and the costs for this one, how much do you think you've spent on the EV?


no I won't raise it it sits the same in the rear as the front and I like it a bit lower

this ev was FREE. ( or you could add 400 for the car , 100 bucks for metal, 240 bucks for 2 batteries, another 100 bucks for "stuff" but really it was all insurance money) + the new charger 630 

Brian


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## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

Pat I see what you asked abot the rear ,, the pics are very decieving,, it does not slouch at all in the rear the shawdow makes it look like it though

Brian


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

OK Brian, when can we see some videos of the MK2?


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## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

david85 said:


> OK Brian, when can we see some videos of the MK2?


MK2????????????

I think I asked before but WHAT is MK2


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

rctous said:


> MK2????????????
> 
> I think I asked before but WHAT is MK2


MK2 means "mark 2" or version 2, or upgraded descendant of a previous version.

I like how you avoided the question though, HAHA!

I joke....


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## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

david85 said:


> MK2 means "mark 2" or version 2, or upgraded descendant of a previous version.
> 
> I like how you avoided the question though, HAHA!
> 
> I joke....


I get it now,, as for video I guess I could get some but I do have a skweek or a skreach I should say that I just can't pinpoint,, it almost sounds like a bearing type sound, usually happens at take off and when you re-accelerate it never does it while cruising and it doesn't last to long I jacked up the front end put it in gear and no noise, I jacked up one wheel (left the other on the ground and put it in gear and no noise,, If I had to make a gues I would say motor bearing but I have a hard time believing that. It only happens under a load condition,, it is starting to annoy me though. It does not do it if you spin the motor / tranny in neutral,, not sure if something may be rubbing somewhere ,,, I am just not sure,, I fugure it gets bad enough it will break then I will know ( sort of just kidding) the next thing to try will be to take the hood off and ride up there while the wife drives it. Perhaps I could at least get an idea where its coming from.

The wife drove it today for the first time and loves it, it is so much smoother than the last one,, the next one I want to go up again in voltage,,,, voltage is cool.

Brian


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

You probably already checked this, but did the CV shafts look good when you had them out? If there is a rusty connection, that could produce a noise like that (more pronounced under load or in a turn).

I also wonder if its something in the suspension. The car tends to tilt back when starting from standstill because thats when there is the most torque, but it depends on how long it squeaks during acceleration (suspension should only have a brief chirp and be done). Easy way to test that is to just push the car up and down by hand the car in the driveway to see if it squeaks.

Could also just be something rubbing on the CV shaft(s). Hard for me to say since I can't hear it in person.


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## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

david85 said:


> You probably already checked this, but did the CV shafts look good when you had them out? If there is a rusty connection, that could produce a noise like that (more pronounced under load or in a turn).
> 
> I also wonder if its something in the suspension. The car tends to tilt back when starting from standstill because thats when there is the most torque, but it depends on how long it squeaks during acceleration (suspension should only have a brief chirp and be done). Easy way to test that is to just push the car up and down by hand the car in the driveway to see if it squeaks.
> 
> Could also just be something rubbing on the CV shaft(s). Hard for me to say since I can't hear it in person.


pretty positive its not suspension I jumped up and down to try to make it squeek but it didn't... CV joints were overflowing with grease + I added more when I put it together,, I hope it is just something rubbing that I have overlooked,, I really don't think its a serious thing but surley an annoying thing,, Thanks as always for the suggestions. I think a ride under the hood is inevitable.

Brian


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## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

Well my car is now road legal but not with a bit of drama. I first had to go to the highway patrol for an inspection, which for an ICE is basically a joke, they look for the cadalitic convertor , start the car, and check the VIN 10 bucks please. Now this inspection is only necessary if the car is registered in another state (not Kansas) if it were registered already in Kansas then its just straight off to the DMV, Any way I said nothing about my car when I went in and they tell ya to go out by your car , open the hood and wait with your title.. The wait was only 10 minutes or so and he came over , he was writting stuff down not even looking at the motor bay, then he did ,,, his eyes lit up and off we went with the whole conversation about EV cars and builds, he never bothered looking for the cadilitic converter (LOL), but he did say he was not 100% sure if he could do the whole inspection that he would need to call someone. Inside we went and on the phone he got,, made his call and "OK no problem" he says, gave them my 10 bucks and procedded to the dmv.

Dmv was not packed like usuall so the wait was only about 20 minutes,, until I got to the teller girl,, I spent over an hour with her, , firslty they couldn't find the paper work or title from the Geo (the first ev) and she didn't believe I ever had a title,, I gave the title to the junk yard people who picked it up I told her. Off to her manager she went ,, 5 minutes later she came back and had to manually do something because I was transferring those personalized plates to the new Saturn,, so she worked through that easy enough then it came to coding the new EV all she could fing was the NEV and she tried to tell me that I was limited to 35 MPH and streets witha posted linit of no more that 45MPH,, not an option I told her so off she went again this time 20-25 minutes went by they had to call headquarters or someone to get the right codes and crap,,, any way finally paid my sales taxes and new fees an YEEEE HAAWWWWW LEGAL to go any speed any where, The cool thing is it actually says on the registartion "Electric Vehicle" Thats all I wanted. The first one they could care less what was powering the car they just treated it like a regular ICE car... Any how that was my bit of drama for the day and it feels good that , that is now done and over. Put on 27 miles today on one charge and the last 7 were in the dark with the lites on, not sure how much further I could have gone but I could feel it losing power, since i still have no gauges I have not pertinent stats to share.

Brian


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

I would have probably snapped as soon as the term "NEV" was mentioned, LOL.

Overal I think it actually went fairly easy for you. I remeber Gavin had much more crap to deal with to get "treddles" road legal. Bottom line is from one day to the next, you are road legal and thats pretty good in my book.

~30 miles doesn't sound too bad (how cold is it there?), what was the range with the GEO?


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## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

david85 said:


> I would have probably snapped as soon as the term "NEV" was mentioned, LOL.
> 
> Overal I think it actually went fairly easy for you. I remeber Gavin had much more crap to deal with to get "treddles" road legal. Bottom line is from one day to the next, you are road legal and thats pretty good in my book.
> 
> ~30 miles doesn't sound too bad (how cold is it there?), what was the range with the GEO?


also having charger issues I am sure not all the batts were fully charged I am now topping off each battery to get ready for my EV meeting tomorrow,,,

I am good with 30 miles but will not really know till I get the new charger up and going


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## PatricioIN (Jun 13, 2008)

rctous said:


> I am good with 30 miles but will not really know till I get the new charger up and going


Well we're having a heat wave here in Indiana, fifty degrees today. So I took the EV to visit the grandparents.. longest trip yet at 30miles! I'm hoping that translates into a decent 40-50 miles in warm weather.


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## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

well I stuck in the amp meter today just temporary but at least noe I can see whats going on,,I notice during the "screach" noise the current is higher,, as soon as the screach stops the current drops some,,, obviously the noise is causing resistance so it is not necessarily the motor but I think it may be,, oh well for now.

Pat thats great mileage so far its like 75 or so here today in Kansas!!! 

Brian


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## PatricioIN (Jun 13, 2008)

rctous said:


> well I stuck in the amp meter today just temporary but at least noe I can see whats going on,,I notice during the "screach" noise the current is higher,, as soon as the screach stops the current drops some,,, obviously the noise is causing resistance so it is not necessarily the motor but I think it may be,, oh well for now.
> 
> Pat thats great mileage so far its like 75 or so here today in Kansas!!!
> 
> Brian


Could your coupler be slipping and rubbing against the motor face or tranny end? I remember in one of Gavin's vids (I think it was his) he had to redo the coupler becuase of a scraping sound that ended up being the coupler rubbing on one end or the other. Seems like that would happen always and not just sometimes.. but another possibility. Actually, the way your spacer is, you can probably see the coupler at least a little bit eh?


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## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

no I am positive its not the coupler but not sure yet

thanks for the ideas,,, it never happens if I spinn the motor up in neutral either,, smoothe as silk then


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## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

Well I have decided to get rid of a few connectoions in the EV. I am eliminating the Larger yellow Sermosr disconnect under the hood as well as getting rid of the mail contactor, I will be replacing them both with this (see photos) It just makes sence to me to eliminate all those connections. By repalcing those components I lose 4 connections and add a mechanical disconnect into the system as well.

The pictures are a bit tough to understand so I will try to explain it. The cardboard represent the bar stock copper I ordered, it is 1/4" x 1" x 3" long. it will basically overlap 1" in the center and gets pressed down by the bolt assembly, really pretty simple I thought. yes you will need to screw it down to engage it and unscrew it to disingage it. The volt meter will be connected right here as well so you will immediatly know when contact is made. One of the pieces of copper bar will be solidly attached to the plexi insulator and the other will float just above it on a spring type mount, I used the swivel part on a clamp and at the bottom of it there is 2 layers of fishtape(insulating cardboard) so there will be no contact to this to the chassis of the car. The 1/2" bolt is for reference only as I need to get a much longer one and it will protrude through the hump in the car and come up sort of next to the emergency brake lever. I should never have to worry about a sticky contactor again, and its always good to eliminate as many connections as possible. I also think this "mechanical contactor" will handle in excess of 1000 amps,

Any thoughts ? goood of bad?

Copper will be here Wednesday or Tuesday.

Time to go to the EV meeting

Brian


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## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

the meeting today was great lots of people lots of questions. I took one of the guys out for a ride to listen to the Squeel " Noise I have and we have 99% narrowed it down to ,,, guess,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, the controller!!!!! of course. It is not a mechanical noise at all I will call them tomorrow and let them know and see what advice they have to offer this time,, not real mad or any thing because at least I am not going to have to rip out the motor and guess what may be wrong, the controller goes in and out very easily so that is good, I will confirm 100% before sending it back in to them but at least its fixable (I am sure it is)

I had the croud at the EV meeting till a guy showed up with his 07 mutand converted car. Full blown AC system with K2 cells ( similar to the A123 cells) 2400 cells he has 21 in paralle and 116 of them in series,,, and the car was beautifully done too. The car has a value of 70K. The accelleration was ( as his liscence plate says) 0-60 5 sec. Totally awesome ride. He has a few battery issues as he has them basically "preasure" mounted. I offered him my welder and he can come over and actually weld tabs to all the packs to make better connections,,, any way it was nice to see a nice ev done locally,,, it was beautiful, he will have about an 80 mile range.

Brian


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

I was thinking in the back of my head that the noise might have been the controller since the curtis makes a little squeak as well, but I didn't think it was true. I hope its not serious but at least you know theres nothing wrong with the work that you did.

I would be very worried about pressure fitting lithium ion cells in a traction pack (even if newer phosphate chemistry). When you consider the amount of ampst that could be flowing through each connection and the potential for fire......I'd hate to see a nice conversion go up.


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## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

david85 said:


> I would be very worried about pressure fitting lithium ion cells in a traction pack (even if newer phosphate chemistry). When you consider the amount of ampst that could be flowing through each connection and the potential for fire......I'd hate to see a nice conversion go up.


my thoughts exactly thats why I offered to help him out but he needs to do all the manual labor 2400 cells,,, I do enough welding every day and I really don't feel like doing all that, but he can come by and use the welder all he wants..


Brian

I will post more on the controller as I find out more details


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## PatricioIN (Jun 13, 2008)

someone has to say it.. have you considered cutting your losses on the logisystems and just going with the larger Curtis?? You, and many others, have had A LOT of problems with the logisystems controllers.


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## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

PatricioIN said:


> someone has to say it.. have you considered cutting your losses on the logisystems and just going with the larger Curtis?? You, and many others, have had A LOT of problems with the logisystems controllers.



nope as long as they keep fixing it in a reasonable time frame I will stick with it

Brian


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## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

Simple fix on the controller,,Just talked with Jim at Logisystems and it is the current limiter,, all I had to do was adjust uo one of the adjustment screws and thats it. I made the adjustment but have not drivin the car yet (charging batteries) and charging is a bit of drama latley. I will go for a spin aroun the block later to let ya all know if that did the trick, if not out it comes again!

brian


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## Bottomfeeder (Jun 13, 2008)

I've got to know, what is the charging dilemma lately? I'm going to be jumping through those hurdles soon.


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## PatricioIN (Jun 13, 2008)

hey Brian,

finally got around to installing that 55amp DC converter you sold me and it works great. The "thump" I had in the radio when I'd hit the brakes went away, windows go up and down much faster, windshield wipers are much faster, etc... Took it for a short spin with everything on - heater, brights, fogs, PS pump, radio, blower on full, etc... Still worked great. 

thanks


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## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

Bottomfeeder said:


> I've got to know, what is the charging dilemma lately? I'm going to be jumping through those hurdles soon.



out of the 12 chargers 8 ( mabey ) are totally reliable. I have had enough so I ordered a series charger and hope it shows up this week yet. You may not have any issues at all I hope. I just want to plug in the car and go to bed, right now it takes a day to charge it all the same. Oh well .

Brian


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## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

Well that didn't work a quick trip around the block and squeeled like a pig,, called Jim again and trying to see if there is any thing else we can do,, again this really does SUCK!

I have the new charger coming and the new manuuall contactor that I will have built this week and I really want to try it all out that will involve driving the car of course.

SHI%$#^

Brian


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## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

PatricioIN said:


> hey Brian,
> 
> finally got around to installing that 55amp DC converter you sold me and it works great. The "thump" I had in the radio when I'd hit the brakes went away, windows go up and down much faster, windshield wipers are much faster, etc... Took it for a short spin with everything on - heater, brights, fogs, PS pump, radio, blower on full, etc... Still worked great.
> 
> thanks


excellent Cascade is pretty conservative with their rating as well and they will perform flawlessly for you for many years,, just keep it dry. Did ya play with the voltage at all?

brian


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

Would Brian or Patric be kind enough to direct me to a thread or web link with info on the DC/DC converter being mention?

I still have to pick one out for my car.


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## PatricioIN (Jun 13, 2008)

rctous said:


> excellent Cascade is pretty conservative with their rating as well and they will perform flawlessly for you for many years,, just keep it dry. Did ya play with the voltage at all?
> 
> brian


nope, I'm going to leave it where it's set from the factory unless there's some reason to change it.. I have a belly shield and there are rubber seals front and rear on the hood, so other than some moister from the sides.. it should be kosher.

here's the link to Brian's website and the cascade dc/converter I purchased (I have 55amp version). BTW, it was cheaper to buy from him than Cascade directly and he has experience using them in an EV!

https://www.tanicpacks.com/product_info.php?products_id=440&osCsid=26d4ef190353a35d315fe420e28dba51


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## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

PatricioIN said:


> nope, I'm going to leave it where it's set from the factory unless there's some reason to change it.. I have a belly shield and there are rubber seals front and rear on the hood, so other than some moister from the sides.. it should be kosher.
> 
> here's the link to Brian's website and the cascade dc/converter I purchased (I have 55amp version). BTW, it was cheaper to buy from him than Cascade directly and he has experience using them in an EV!
> 
> https://www.tanicpacks.com/product_info.php?products_id=440&osCsid=26d4ef190353a35d315fe420e28dba51


I modified the link a bit so it directs you to the power supplies,, yours took ya to the sign on page,, I need to fix that

https://www.tanicpacks.com/index.php?cPath=76_53&=26d4ef190353a35d315fe420e28dba51


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

Perfect, thanks!


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## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

Well today marked another EV milestone,, The first time my wife (Laura) used the car for her normal afternoon run,,,,,,,SOLO. To the post office, to the bank, then off to school to get the kids, not a ton of mileage but none the less another first. She really enjoys this car,, better than the last one. It is much more comfortable not as stiff and ot looks better. The only issue was a very nervous BRIAN. I am positive she will have many more then soon it will just be another car. To her mabey but never will it be just another car to me.

Brian


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## Bottomfeeder (Jun 13, 2008)

Is she ducking the paparrazzi there?


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## PatricioIN (Jun 13, 2008)

rctous said:


> The only issue was a very nervous BRIAN. I am positive she will have many more then soon it will just be another car. To her mabey but never will it be just another car to me.
> 
> Brian


that's funny.. I am the only person who ever drives my EV, but I had the husband drive it around in front of me once for a few passes. I had never heard what it sounded like outside the car!


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## tj4fa (May 25, 2008)

Very Cool!! She looks good in it. 

Now on to nervous Brian...Do you have anything to prevent a person from overspeeding the motor yet?

And the first time she tries to stop on a wet or icy road might be a new experience for her if you're packing a lot of lead.


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## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

Bottomfeeder said:


> Is she ducking the paparrazzi there?


ya she really didn't want her pic taken OH well it was a special moment.

B


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## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

tj4fa said:


> Very Cool!! She looks good in it.
> 
> Now on to nervous Brian...Do you have anything to prevent a person from overspeeding the motor yet?
> 
> And the first time she tries to stop on a wet or icy road might be a new experience for her if you're packing a lot of lead.


we will rarley if ever drive in wet conditions we do not ever need to and certainly NEVER in the snow,, I have other cars for that. As for over reving she is a pretty smart girl and knows not to exceed 40-45 MPH in second gear. I am sure I will never add over rev protection to this one. Just not a big concern I have.

She wasn't really even nervous ( I was though) but thats what the car is for to get it in "service for daily use". Not there yet till I get the new charger. It has shipped and I do have a tracking # so I am still expecting it this week, we will see as it is coming EMS,, sometimes really fast sometimes not so fast. The copper should be here tomorrow so mabey I will get my manual contactor finished and in the car.

Weather here was 70 degrees today,, just perfect.

Brian


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## Bottomfeeder (Jun 13, 2008)

About your mechanical disconnect. I'm unsure of what its function is. Are you going to leave it tight all the time, or are you going to tighten it down before driving? What is the insulation that will keep the copper from shorting to the disconnect? I haven't heard of fishtape. I'm sure you have your reason, as most of your stuff is well thought out. I just don't understand fully.


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## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

Bottomfeeder said:


> About your mechanical disconnect. I'm unsure of what its function is. Are you going to leave it tight all the time, or are you going to tighten it down before driving? What is the insulation that will keep the copper from shorting to the disconnect? I haven't heard of fishtape. I'm sure you have your reason, as most of your stuff is well thought out. I just don't understand fully.


this will be tightened every time you drive the car and loosened every time your done driving. There will be no contactor at all (except for the heater) and there will be no huge sermos plug under the hood. It will be the contactor as well as an emergency disconnect. This allows me to get rid of many connections in the circuit. 

Fish tape is like insulating cardboard used in electronics for isolation. The other material is plexiglass,, I just hope it doen't generate much heat and melt the plexi,, I guess I will find out, I don't suspect any heat. I will take many photos as it comes together,, I am just not totally sold on a real reason to have an electrical contactor in the system, other than being used as a way to shut off with an inertia switch, other than that????????????

Also it will act as an emergency disconnect as well.

Brian


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## peggus (Feb 18, 2008)

If you ever have to open that thing under load it will arc! The copper will vaporize in an explosive fashion and you will have a plasma fire under your hood. 

It also seems like a very slow and cumbersome thing to open in a runaway situation.

Keep the dedicated contactor and manual disconnect!


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## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

Got in my piece of copper now to see what I can do with it for the manual contactor

Brian


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## peggus (Feb 18, 2008)

*http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arc_Flash
*

*
*

*Definition*

An arc flash is a voltage breakdown of the resistance of air resulting in an arc which can occur where there is sufficient voltage in an electrical system and a path to ground or lower voltage. An arc flash with 1000 amps or more can cause substantial damage, fire or injury. The massive energy released in the fault instantly vaporizes the metal conductors involved, blasting molten metal and expanding plasma outward with extreme force. A typical arc flash incident can be inconsequential but could conceivably easily produce a more severe explosion (see calculation below). The result of the violent event can cause destruction of equipment involved, fire, and injury not only to the worker but also to nearby people.
In addition to the explosive blast of such a fault, destruction also arises from the intense radiant heat produced by the arc. The metal plasma arc produces tremendous amounts of light energy from far infrared to ultraviolet. Surfaces of nearby people and objects absorb this energy and are instantly heated to vaporizing temperatures. The effects of this can be seen on adjacent walls and equipment - they are often ablated and eroded from the radiant effects.


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## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

Here are some pics of the manual contactor looks like it will work just fine, it take 3/4 turn from completely open to completely closed. On the last picture that is a close up you can see the fishtape insulation on the swivel that makes contact with the copper. this is completely isolated fron any and all of the steel. lets just hope there are no jumping sparks. I will find out I guess. I am going to make the handle for the all thread. Also the all thread will but way shorter I just do not know the exact length till I git it installed in the car first.

brian


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## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

peggus said:


> *http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arc_Flash
> *
> 
> *
> ...


but there is no load on the other end of this either so there should not be any "flash" at all.


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## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

peggus said:


> If you ever have to open that thing under load it will arc! The copper will vaporize in an explosive fashion and you will have a plasma fire under your hood.
> 
> It also seems like a very slow and cumbersome thing to open in a runaway situation.
> 
> Keep the dedicated contactor and manual disconnect!


it takes less than a second to open or close this thing its doesn't turn that much, 3/4 turn

Thanks for the heads up on plasma fires and such,, I understand there are situations that may not be too favorable.


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## Bottomfeeder (Jun 13, 2008)

But if you have to use it as an emergency disconnect, it will be under load! I don't know... this doesn't seem like your most brilliant idea. Good luck either way!


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## peggus (Feb 18, 2008)

Frankly it's a very dangerous idea!


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## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

Well I got it all done I did decide to leave the Sermos connector in under the hood but I only have it interupting one wire not both, The manual disconnect works great actully I am pretty certain that the car performs much better and I believe it is due to the other contactor being not 100% I have had it stick on me twice and had to bang on it to loosen it (that can't be good) but it does perform better and I was pleasantly surprised. I will make a handle for it and get it to the proper height later ( tomorrow I am sure) as it gets tightened there is no noticable noice click or poppping sound at all. Also when I can back from a 4-5 mile hard drive I jacked up the car to check it all out and it was litterely ice cold. So far so good. I understand the potential disadvantages with this system but so far it is MY preference, and would not recommend any one doing it because of me. As a contactor elininator it is fine and I believe far better as an emergengy disconnect I have to agree that it is not. I will re do the sermos connnectors up front ( get new single ones) and make a real manual disconnect.

Brian


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## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

peggus said:


> Frankly it's a very dangerous idea!


as an emergency disconnect I agree,,,, but as a contactor eliminator I think its a better idea. I am going to add a manual true emergency disconnect to the system,, so thanks for all the words of caution.

Brian


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## peggus (Feb 18, 2008)

I am glad to hear that. 

Functionally it appears that the copper is not protected against corrosion in any way. It may work very well now but will it work in a few weeks, months? I'd tin plate those copper pieces if I were you. 

It is also open to road salt and debris getting in there defeating its operation.

The handle appears to be electrically live, I didn't see any insulating spacer between the copper and the screw. Perhaps I just missed it but in case I didn't; having high voltage exposed inside the cabin is obviously a very bad idea.

Good luck


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## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

peggus said:


> I am glad to hear that.
> 
> Functionally it appears that the copper is not protected against corrosion in any way. It may work very well now but will it work in a few weeks, months? I'd tin plate those copper pieces if I were you.
> 
> ...


it will be enclosed and painted too. The handle is not live if you look closely at the last pictue in the last group you will see the swivel press part thingy has 2 layers of fish tape under it ( fish tape is like card board but designed to do exactly what I am doing with it. The only parts making any voltage at all is the copper everything else is completely isolated. I haven't coated the copper yet with any thing I will use my carbon silicone stuff later but it is so messy ( you can see some of the black crap on the picture of the contactor under the car) it works very well but as I said very messy, once I determine I don't have to remove it again I will coat it with it.

B


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## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

ok I gave in I ordered an Albright sw 200 today to replace the manual contactor,, it was a good way to find out the older contactor was performing poorly. 

Also my dad called from Wisconsin and want me to build him an EV so of couse I will. He doen;t want it till fall but I need to start collecting parts,, any one with a Warp 9 impulse that want to sell it I am interested in it,,, even a Warp 9 perhaps.

Brian


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## Bottomfeeder (Jun 13, 2008)

You better watch out or you'll be doing this for a living!


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## slurryguy (Dec 16, 2008)

If I marry into your family will you build me an EV too?


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## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

slurryguy said:


> If I marry into your family will you build me an EV too?


well my daughter is 8 so in a few years perhaps, Heck I will build ya one now if ya want! Just give me a couple days

Brian


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## slurryguy (Dec 16, 2008)

I think it's best if your daughter grows up and finds someone for herself.

Probably best if I build my own EV too, but I may bug you and ask for lots of your advice when I'm ready for that kind of "commitment".


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## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

slurryguy said:


> I think it's best if your daughter grows up and finds someone for herself.
> 
> Probably best if I build my own EV too, but I may bug you and ask for lots of your advice when I'm ready for that kind of "commitment".


both great ideas


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## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

check out this motor I came accross on e bay

looks pretty good to me!!

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/EV-E....c0.m245&_trkparms=72:317|65:12|39:1|240:1318

Brian


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## TheSGC (Nov 15, 2007)

rctous said:


> check out this motor I came accross on e bay
> 
> looks pretty good to me!!
> 
> ...


It is a great motor, but there are no controllers for it. There is a forum member who has this motor and has built his own controller that is a work in progress. This motor was made for the Ford EVs, but the controller was never readily available and from what I can tell there are none available that will run this motor out of the box.


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## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

TheSGC said:


> It is a great motor, but there are no controllers for it. There is a forum member who has this motor and has built his own controller that is a work in progress. This motor was made for the Ford EVs, but the controller was never readily available and from what I can tell there are none available that will run this motor out of the box.


I am sure a controller can be had )or found) but at what expence??

Then of course with an AC system batteries again come up,, not sure I would want to do 300+ volts from lead????

B


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## PatricioIN (Jun 13, 2008)

Bottomfeeder said:


> You better watch out or you'll be doing this for a living!


seriously Brian.. I know guy here in Indy who does EV conversions on the side of his day job.. (well, nights actually..) anyway, he charges 12k - you supply the donor and he gives people EV's. I've not seen one of his conversions, but I have been in his personal EV which he converted like 15 years ago and still drives - and I've been in another diy in town which he consulted and assisted on. You could so do this on the side and make a heft little amount of money, because frankly, 12k is a bit low in my opinion (and of course that is for a basic 120v system like mine.) I'm sure he'll add stuff on for a fee.. 144volt, paktrakr.. etc..


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## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

PatricioIN said:


> seriously Brian.. I know guy here in Indy who does EV conversions on the side of his day job.. (well, nights actually..) anyway, he charges 12k - you supply the donor and he gives people EV's. I've not seen one of his conversions, but I have been in his personal EV which he converted like 15 years ago and still drives - and I've been in another diy in town which he consulted and assisted on. You could so do this on the side and make a heft little amount of money, because frankly, 12k is a bit low in my opinion (and of course that is for a basic 120v system like mine.) I'm sure he'll add stuff on for a fee.. 144volt, paktrakr.. etc..


ya I wouldn't mind doing a few more we'll see what developes

Brian


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## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

well I got the charger today and put it in the car,, its pretty cool I am messing with balancing the packs as it is charging,, of course I think the charger has an isue. It is a 6 stage charger. Starts off on CC mode and its actually putting out 16.6 amps which is good then it goes to 175 (ish) volts which is perfect for the 12 batteries I have,,,, but then it goes into another mode and the voltage climbs again to 184.4 which is too high, this is the voltage I would expect to see in balance mode (the charger has a balance mode switch) it appears that the switch makes no difference no matter what position it is in.. ODD to say the least. So of course I have called Kelly syatems and no return call today,, I don't expect to hear from them till probably Tuesday. Of course I took the charger apart and there are several pots that can be adjusted but I will await to hear from Kelly before I go screwing with more pots. Any way I like the whole idea of it and it is sure convienient BUTTTTTTTTTTTTTT. 

Other news went on the highway today for about 5 miles and got er up to 70 mph, yeee hawww could have gone faster but I was drawing about 400 amps ( motor) so i didn't push it,, I slowed down for the rest to about 63 mph,, ahndles the speed well, still not completely sure about the controller but it all worked just fine, got home and it was just warm,, Very cool day so far


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## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

got around to mounting the guages today, ya I will keep the 150 volt volt meter it spends most of it time pegged to the right but it come down to below 150 volts prettry soon so it is totally functionable,, here sre some pics of the adventure took about 3 hours so not to bad at all. I sure like it,, the were meant to go there.

Brian


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## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

and a few more,, I know you all like pictures

Brian


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## Voltswagen (Nov 13, 2008)

Nice install of those meters Brian........what a different world if the car actually came with them huh?
Roy


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## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

Voltswagen said:


> Nice install of those meters Brian........what a different world if the car actually came with them huh?
> Roy



ya no kidding


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## PatricioIN (Jun 13, 2008)

They look very good.


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

Attention to detail like that can make all of the difference. Very nice, I might just try that with mine.


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## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

david85 said:


> Attention to detail like that can make all of the difference. Very nice, I might just try that with mine.


ya it looks pretty stock could have incorporated a black cover disc for the gold are where the meter stick comes out of but, as you see I didn't,,, Just a little grinding is all it took ,, they were the exact perfect size.


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## ClintK (Apr 27, 2008)

rctous said:


> got around to mounting the guages today, ya I will keep the 150 volt volt meter it spends most of it time pegged to the right but it come down to below 150 volts prettry soon so it is totally functionable,, here sre some pics of the adventure took about 3 hours so not to bad at all. I sure like it,, the were meant to go there.
> 
> Brian


Looks great! The voltmeter is definitely no big deal. Every car I've ever driven stays on "Full" for a quarter of the tank.


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## dpringle (Jun 17, 2008)

OK Brian, they look very nice... I started dismantling my instrument cluster the other day and I can't figure out how I'm going to do it without damaging the feed to the speedometer.... looks like you have the same type of integrated ribbon/board that I do... how did you do it?

BTW, finally replaced my axles and front struts and brakes... did a 12v test and everything spins silently.... woohoo!


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## joshg678 (Jan 25, 2009)

Wow, very nice.
Did you have to drop the steering wheel to get the cluster out or was that for other reasons?


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## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

joshg678 said:


> Wow, very nice.
> Did you have to drop the steering wheel to get the cluster out or was that for other reasons?


yes to get the cluster out,, I fought with it first but it took like 2 minutes to drop the column

B


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## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

dpringle said:


> OK Brian, they look very nice... I started dismantling my instrument cluster the other day and I can't figure out how I'm going to do it without damaging the feed to the speedometer.... looks like you have the same type of integrated ribbon/board that I do... how did you do it?
> 
> BTW, finally replaced my axles and front struts and brakes... did a 12v test and everything spins silently.... woohoo!


what feed to the speedo? is it a cable or is it the ribbon plug you can't get off?

B


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## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

Voltswagen said:


> Nice install of those meters Brian........what a different world if the car actually came with them huh?
> Roy


Thanks now to get the tach working????? one day


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## mill (Aug 22, 2008)

rctous said:


> Thanks now to get the tach working????? one day


 since you are still using the pcm for the speedo why not dissassemble the engine and pull off the crank position sensor wheel and attatch it to the electric motor, then you could fab a bracket for the sensor and have engine rpm


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## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

mill said:


> since you are still using the pcm for the speedo why not dissassemble the engine and pull off the crank position sensor wheel and attatch it to the electric motor, then you could fab a bracket for the sensor and have engine rpm


already got rid of the engine,,, it would have been that simple huh???

brian


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## PatricioIN (Jun 13, 2008)

rctous said:


> already got rid of the engine,,, it would have been that simple huh???
> 
> brian


no sh!!%$^ !! haha... that falls in the "duh" category.. why didn't I think of that to get my tack working again? I even had my motor up until the conversion was totally finished! Now, to see about getting those parts!


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## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

PatricioIN said:


> no sh!!%$^ !! haha... that falls in the "duh" category.. why didn't I think of that to get my tack working again? I even had my motor up until the conversion was totally finished! Now, to see about getting those parts!


I hate the mess of it in the garage so it was gone right away

oh wel live and learn


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## mill (Aug 22, 2008)

rctous said:


> already got rid of the engine,,, it would have been that simple huh???
> 
> brian


well there is allways junkyards or the saturn forums, it might be a little tough to get off there as some are pressed on to the crank, you might want to measure the air gap while it is still in the engine, but yeah thats where your pcm gets engine speed from and communicates it to the cluster.


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

mill said:


> since you are still using the pcm for the speedo why not dissassemble the engine and pull off the crank position sensor wheel and attatch it to the electric motor, then you could fab a bracket for the sensor and have engine rpm


Might be too late for Brian, but not for my saturn!!

Thanks for the tip. I *WILL* look into this since I still have the engine and its probably not worth much.

Brian, you don't want to see what a mess our shop is.......


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## mill (Aug 22, 2008)

for those of you running cooling fans on your motors/controllers this would enable you to use the fuel pump relay output to run a fan or anything else only while the motor is spinning. aside from the couple second "prime", most all pcms are progammed to turn the fuel pump on only while the engine is turning, the engine stops, the fuel pump cuts off. might save a little power.


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## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

mill said:


> for those of you running cooling fans on your motors/controllers this would enable you to use the fuel pump relay output to run a fan or anything else only while the motor is spinning. aside from the couple second "prime", most all pcms are progammed to turn the fuel pump on only while the engine is turning, the engine stops, the fuel pump cuts off. might save a little power.


yes but when I am at a stop sign or a light I want the fan on to continue to cool the controller and the fan draws like .15 of an amp or something,, I drive my e-car with a lead foot because its fun,,, I am not going for range ,,, the car is just a hoot so to waste a few ah is all in a days drive.


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## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

I won't even talk about the charger issues again lets just say I am using 2 chargers to charge all 12 batteries alternately....

Brian


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## mill (Aug 22, 2008)

rctous said:


> yes but when I am at a stop sign or a light I want the fan on to continue to cool the controller and the fan draws like .15 of an amp or something,, I drive my e-car with a lead foot because its fun,,, I am not going for range ,,, the car is just a hoot so to waste a few ah is all in a days drive.


just a thought, i was thinking about a large fan for a motor, maybe it could be used for something else. leadfoot here too, what is your car comparable to in acceleration? ive only driven one e-car and it was 72 volts so yeah it wasnt exactly fast


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## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

mill said:


> just a thought, i was thinking about a large fan for a motor, maybe it could be used for something else. leadfoot here too, what is your car comparable to in acceleration? ive only driven one e-car and it was 72 volts so yeah i wasnt exactly fast


well I am pretty sure it is close to the 4 cylynder that was in it I can squeel the tires around corners could probably do a burn out with the e-brake on but the whole idea of that just sounds stupid,, but I may one day try it while the controller is still under warranty there are just to many things that could damage and right now I just like driving it not feeling like fixin it


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## mill (Aug 22, 2008)

an e-burnout would be really cool, make sure you put that on youtube if you ever do it


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## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

mill said:


> an e-burnout would be really cool, make sure you put that on youtube if you ever do it


Ya thought about it but as I said that would be dumb


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

One wheel fires are not a good idea with these cars (or other transverse for that matter). As I mentioned earlier, the saturn transaxle has a weakness in the differential pinion pin. Basically the pinion gears spin so fast when one wheel is turning in a burnout that they heat up and can seize on the shaft. The pinion shaft could work its way into the housing of the transmission over time if you make a habit of this, or it could even break in extreme cases. I've been told there is a LSD available to correct the problem but its not cheap. As far as raw horespower goes, supposedly the transmission can survive 300Hp or more with nothing more than a stronger clutch.

Its got more to do with load as well as the speed of the slipping of the differential causing heat, so its not like the odd skid on snow will cause damage. But a one wheel fire on pavement in the summer is probably not a good idea. It might not matter as much with an electric car, because there is not the underhood heat from an engine or cooling package, but I wouldn't do it with mine even though I intend to drive it hard as well.


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## joshg678 (Jan 25, 2009)

rctous said:


> yes but when I am at a stop sign or a light I want the fan on to continue to cool the controller and the fan draws like .15 of an amp or something,, I drive my e-car with a lead foot because its fun,,, I am not going for range ,,, the car is just a hoot so to waste a few ah is all in a days drive.


Would you be able to setup a Shroud of some sort so when driving it funnels fresh air to the heat sink on the controller and when stopped the fan can turn on to keep cool?


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## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

joshg678 said:


> Would you be able to setup a Shroud of some sort so when driving it funnels fresh air to the heat sink on the controller and when stopped the fan can turn on to keep cool?


I suppose you could but not sure whay you would want to the fan draws like no current and the hassel with the shroud and the coil of the extra realy would probably draw more current than the fan, as I have it now there is no relay,,, it turns on and off with the ignition ket in the IGN position

brian


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## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

OK here is my brand new charger story,, bought it and thought it was way overcharging batteries so of course I stopped charging with it all the way, but that was not really a big Deal . I got it this last Saturday had it installed in an hour or so, drove the car everyting seemed ok but I still thought it was charging at to high of voltage. Well it appears it was actually OK, Went to pull the car in from the driveway jsut 20 feet into the garage to do the gauges in the dash,,, well never unplugged or turned off the frickin charger, as soon as the contactor was engaged KAAAAAAA BOOOOOOOM, from the trunk. Knowing that was bad I ripped into the charger, saw there were 2 fuses blown and a trace had fried in 1/2 put in new fuses and fixed the trace turned it on and it started to ramp up the boom again took out the fuses again, got disapointed again and left it alone for a day,, well today I tore inot to it big time as you can see by the piccs and as you can see took out 4 of the IGBT trasistor things, spent an hour on the web tracking down the parts found them (had to place a 35 dollar min order so I added some tie straps, which I do not need but its better than a surcharge) the parts were like 4 bucks each and they are on the way and I will have them on Thursday. Hopefully after I repalce these and the fuses again it will work (fibgers crossed) I will certaily let you all know. In the meantime I have been researching chargers from China and actually ordered two of them, we sent the TT today. I have a 220 vac and a 110vac version coming it will be at least 3 weeks. I will test them out and we will see where that all goes. If they are any good we will be offering them on the web site, Price will be about 599 but 10 dollar shipping.

Any way thats the continuing sago of my charging life with ev's. Can ya believe all of this?

Brian


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## rfengineers (Jun 2, 2008)

rctous said:


> OK here is my brand new charger story,, bought it and thought it was way overcharging batteries so of course I stopped charging with it all the way, but that was not really a big Deal . I got it this last Saturday had it installed in an hour or so, drove the car everyting seemed ok but I still thought it was charging at to high of voltage. Well it appears it was actually OK, Went to pull the car in from the driveway jsut 20 feet into the garage to do the gauges in the dash,,, well never unplugged or turned off the frickin charger, as soon as the contactor was engaged KAAAAAAA BOOOOOOOM, from the trunk. Knowing that was bad I ripped into the charger, saw there were 2 fuses blown and a trace had fried in 1/2 put in new fuses and fixed the trace turned it on and it started to ramp up the boom again took out the fuses again, got disapointed again and left it alone for a day,, well today I tore inot to it big time as you can see by the piccs and as you can see took out 4 of the IGBT trasistor things, spent an hour on the web tracking down the parts found them (had to place a 35 dollar min order so I added some tie straps, which I do not need but its better than a surcharge) the parts were like 4 bucks each and they are on the way and I will have them on Thursday. Hopefully after I repalce these and the fuses again it will work (fibgers crossed) I will certaily let you all know. In the meantime I have been researching chargers from China and actually ordered two of them, we sent the TT today. I have a 220 vac and a 110vac version coming it will be at least 3 weeks. I will test them out and we will see where that all goes. If they are any good we will be offering them on the web site, Price will be about 599 but 10 dollar shipping.
> 
> Any way thats the continuing sago of my charging life with ev's. Can ya believe all of this?
> 
> Brian


Brian,

Is it the Kelly charger that blew up? I haven't had any problems with mine so far.

Joe


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## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

rfengineers said:


> Brian,
> 
> Is it the Kelly charger that blew up? I haven't had any problems with mine so far.
> 
> Joe


yes it was but because I drove the car while it was plugged in and charging,,

LIVE AND LEARN

Brian


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## ElectriCar (Jun 15, 2008)

rctous said:


> yes it was but because I drove the car while it was plugged in and charging,,
> 
> LIVE AND LEARN
> 
> Brian


After a couple of weeks of driving I decided to interlock my charger to the KSI circuit. It's in line with the inertia switch I believe. There's a contact that is closed but opens when the charger is energized. I too got in my truck and almost started backing it up and realized it was still plugged in. Now it's idiot proof...

Actually as I understand it, the National Electric Code that contractors use calls for an electric vehicle to have a plug that when in use disconnects it the control so it's inoperable. I may spring for it one day.

Have a looksee here: http://www.energy.ca.gov/papers/98-09-23_KATELEY.PDF


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## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

ElectriCar said:


> After a couple of weeks of driving I decided to interlock my charger to the KSI circuit. It's in line with the inertia switch I believe. There's a contact that is closed but opens when the charger is energized. I too got in my truck and almost started backing it up and realized it was still plugged in. Now it's idiot proof...
> 
> Actually as I understand it, the National Electric Code that contractors use calls for an electric vehicle to have a plug that when in use disconnects it the control so it's inoperable. I may spring for it one day.
> 
> Have a looksee here: http://www.energy.ca.gov/papers/98-09-23_KATELEY.PDF


all I did was make the contactor close that was enough to blow it up, I never even moved the car so it was the caps charging in the controller that did it. I used to move my car from outside into the garage before when I had the 12 chargers. I did not forget to unplug or turn off the charger i knew it was on and plugged in I just did not expect this to happen due to my past,,,,,, in doing it before. You would think the charger would hav some sort of protection for this but it was probably a pretty good jolt for a micro second or two.

Interupting the KSI would not have prevented this from happening, it would have prevented me from moving the car yes indeed,, also if I had that circuit in I would have known that I have to unplug the charger first or at least turn it off. Hopefully it will only be a 13 dollar lesson and there is not more damage after I replace the bad transistors,, we will know on Thursday. At first I was overnighting them but I two dayed them instead, The company I dealt was great....

Brian


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## rfengineers (Jun 2, 2008)

rctous said:


> yes it was but because I drove the car while it was plugged in and charging,,
> 
> LIVE AND LEARN
> 
> Brian


Important safety tip! Don't cross the streams.

I will remember to always unplug before inserting the key.


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## ClintK (Apr 27, 2008)

rfengineers said:


> Important safety tip! Don't cross the streams.
> 
> I will remember to always unplug before inserting the key.


Time for me to feel like an idiot...
Why does pulling power from the battery / charger blow the charger? It's "ok" to leave the charger connected to the batteries at all times, correct? What difference does it make to the charger if it is plugged in to a wall versus not?


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## rfengineers (Jun 2, 2008)

ClintK said:


> Time for me to feel like an idiot...
> Why does pulling power from the battery / charger blow the charger? It's "ok" to leave the charger connected to the batteries at all times, correct? What difference does it make to the charger if it is plugged in to a wall versus not?


Apparently, SOME chargers are OK to leave plugged in and charging while you drive, but not the Kelly charger that Brian and I use.

My charger is external to the car. I plug the 120VDC charger output into the socket on the side of my car.


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## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

ClintK said:


> Time for me to feel like an idiot...
> Why does pulling power from the battery / charger blow the charger? It's "ok" to leave the charger connected to the batteries at all times, correct? What difference does it make to the charger if it is plugged in to a wall versus not?


all I know is it was the spike of voltage from the traction pack to the controlller that did it not entirely sure why mabey i was just unlucky. If the charger was turned off I am sure it would have been ok. I don't think the charger needs to be disconnected from the traction pack as long as it is off. If I let the resistor charge the controller it may have been ok to I just don't know.

Brian


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## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

rfengineers said:


> Apparently, SOME chargers are OK to leave plugged in and charging while you drive, but not the Kelly charger that Brian and I use.
> 
> My charger is external to the car. I plug the 120VDC charger output into the socket on the side of my car.


ya perhaps it is different for different chargers????


brian


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## slurryguy (Dec 16, 2008)

I wonder if a very general rule of thumb might be... 

The smarter and larger the charger is, the more vulnerable it is.


I'm wondering if the charger is caught during a particular part of its intelligent charging cycle and very suddenly the load changes... BAD THINGS HAPPEN.

Dumb chargers don't care.
Small chargers may have better current limiting.

Thus ends my wild @ss guess of the day.


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## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

slurryguy said:


> I wonder if a very general rule of thumb might be...
> 
> The smarter and larger the charger is, the more vulnerable it is.
> 
> ...


quite possible I am sure there is a reason this one blew and yet others don't,, it was the main out puts that blew ( I hope thats all) so they just were not prepared for the surge of current. IN any event I learned my lesson, but it may not be over yet.

Brian


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## PatricioIN (Jun 13, 2008)

I guess my charger is a dumb charger, though I've never asked it what the capital of Kansas is (hint: I'm a hot toe picker!) Anyway, I've had my key "on" while plugged in and nothing has happened. Of course I also have a charger interlock relay.. That sucks Brian.. hope it's an easy fix.


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## slurryguy (Dec 16, 2008)

This is just getting weird. I actually woke up last night thinking about Brian's car and his charger saga. I think I need professional help!

I wonder what Brian's maximum current draw is when he keys-on and is precharging his controller? I'm guessing that was the biggest load change that occured when his charger blew.

Is it possible that Brian's precharge resistors have failed?


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## Voltswagen (Nov 13, 2008)

I have the same Quick Charger that Patricio has. 120v 10amp
I think I recall turing on the key and then stepping on the accelerator and nothing happened. That was when I realized the onboard charger was still plugged in. I always assumed that my Kelly Controller protected the system and not the charger but I could be wrong.
Roy


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## TheSGC (Nov 15, 2007)

Voltswagen said:


> I have the same Quick Charger that Patricio has. 120v 10amp
> I think I recall turing on the key and then stepping on the accelerator and nothing happened. That was when I realized the onboard charger was still plugged in. I always assumed that my Kelly Controller protected the system and not the charger but I could be wrong.
> Roy


Most likely the charger was over the High Voltage Lockout on the controller and the Kelly shutdown to prevent damage. I have the High Voltage Lockout at 116 volts for my 96 volt system, and at it's peak charging it can be 120 volts.


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## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

slurryguy said:


> This is just getting weird. I actually woke up last night thinking about Brian's car and his charger saga. I think I need professional help!
> 
> I wonder what Brian's maximum current draw is when he keys-on and is precharging his controller? I'm guessing that was the biggest load change that occured when his charger blew.
> 
> Is it possible that Brian's precharge resistors have failed?


there was no pre charge happening,,, the resistors are fine,,,

Dude seek professional HELP immediatly!!!! LOL

Brian


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## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

Voltswagen said:


> I have the same Quick Charger that Patricio has. 120v 10amp
> I think I recall turing on the key and then stepping on the accelerator and nothing happened. That was when I realized the onboard charger was still plugged in. I always assumed that my Kelly Controller protected the system and not the charger but I could be wrong.
> Roy


it is all pretty wierd I agree I wouldn't necessarily believe it if it didn't happen to me ,,, but hey this is me and its a charger,, heck I can write a book on charging ( what not to do's)

Brian


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## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

TheSGC said:


> Most likely the charger was over the High Voltage Lockout on the controller and the Kelly shutdown to prevent damage. I have the High Voltage Lockout at 116 volts for my 96 volt system, and at it's peak charging it can be 120 volts.


 ya 120 volts is 15 volts per cell,, it would go to 124 during , or for equa;ization. I talked to logisystems and they say the conroller doesn't care at all to get the spike fron the contactor and no resistor or pre charge is necessar they say it is only to save the contactor.

Brian


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## tj4fa (May 25, 2008)

Like RFengineer mentioned, It must have something to do with that Kelly charger.

The On Board Quick Charger that Volkswagon, Patricio and I have apparently isn't bothered by it being plugged in and driving (as long as the cord reaches).  

It also doesn't appear to adversely affect the Zivan NG5 either as that charger is used as a range extender getting power from an on-board gas generator as in this series hybrid setup shown in Method 1 at the evconsulting website below..

http://www.evconsultinginc.com/articles/hybridizing_dc_system.html


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## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

OK i am going to through this in all this mess as well,,,,,,,,,,,, keep in mind I have a manual contactor!!!!!!!!! as soon as it tightened down the charger blew... Perhaps since it screws down slower than a contactor would make contact I plasma'd the charger!!! It is at least an easy scape goat!!!!

B


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## tj4fa (May 25, 2008)

rctous said:


> OK i am going to through this in all this mess as well,,,,,,,,,,,, keep in mind I have a manual contactor!!!!!!!!! as soon as it tightened down the charger blew... Perhaps since it screws down slower than a contactor would make contact I plasma'd the charger!!! It is at least an easy scape goat!!!!
> 
> B


Huh??









You still must have your "(fibgers crossed)". Can you run that one by us again??


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## Voltswagen (Nov 13, 2008)

Manual contactor? You gotta splain that one to me dude.
You mean you are using a "cutoff" or quick disconnect to power the system?
What controller?


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## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

it all starts on page 23 check it out

Brian


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## Voltswagen (Nov 13, 2008)

So I'm guessing that you never installed the Albright Switch?


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## tj4fa (May 25, 2008)

rctous said:


> it all starts on page 23 check it out
> 
> Brian


Brian, please tell me your high-voltage cables aren't grounding out to the 12V chassis system of your car in your photo below:


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## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

Voltswagen said:


> So I'm guessing that you never installed the Albright Switch?


it got here tuesday and its sitting down stairs,,, I still like the manual contactor,, the performance is so good...I imagine the Albright will perform equally as well,,, I will probably put it in this week end


Brian


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## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

tj4fa said:


> Brian, please tell me your high-voltage cables aren't grounding out to the 12V chassis system of your car in your photo below:


of course not look closely at all the pics.

Brian


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## tj4fa (May 25, 2008)

rctous said:


> of course not look closely at all the pics.
> 
> Brian


I dunno...

It looks like the copper bus bar is resting directly on the car body transmission tunnel in that photo...


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## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

All the screws are counter sunk into the plexi and no nothing is touching it is 100% isolated

Sorry for sounding harsh on the last reply I typed it in a hurry then read it later and went WOW that didn't come out right,,,, I love you guys and would never be rude ( purposely) of course spelling is another topic all together,,, Its not that I can't spell I just can't type,

so again sorry if it came across rude.

Brian


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## tj4fa (May 25, 2008)

What holds the insulators to the metal bracket? Are there bolts that go through the bottom-side of the metal bracket up through the insulators?

What I'm trying to say here is...are there any bolts/bolt heads going through the insulator to hold it to the bracket (metal-to-metal contact with the bracket) that touches ANYWHERE on the bracket that is touching the car body?

I'm still trying to figure if 120V is what blew your charger when you screwed down your contactor.

Once you screwed the contactor closed any high voltage that might have touched your 12V chassis could be what blew your charger.


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## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

tj4fa said:


> What holds the insulators to the metal bracket? Are there bolts that go through the bottom-side of the metal bracket up through the insulators?
> 
> What I'm trying to say here is...are there any bolts/bolt heads going through the insulator to hold it to the bracket (metal-to-metal contact with the bracket) that touches ANYWHERE on the bracket that is touching the car body?
> 
> ...


the heads of the screws are counter sunk into the plastic and they are about 1/16" from the copper also there is Kapton tape over the screw heasds as well.


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## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

rctous said:


> the heads of the screws are counter sunk into the plastic and they are about 1/16" from the copper also there is Kapton tape over the screw heasds as well.


you can take an ohm meter to the handle in the screwed down position ( or unscrewed position) and hold the other end to the chassis and there is no resistance at all I made sure that it is fully isolated


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## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

mabey this will help I should have taken more pics darn it!!!

Brian


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## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

tj4fa said:


> What holds the insulators to the metal bracket? Are there bolts that go through the bottom-side of the metal bracket up through the insulators?
> 
> What I'm trying to say here is...are there any bolts/bolt heads going through the insulator to hold it to the bracket (metal-to-metal contact with the bracket) that touches ANYWHERE on the bracket that is touching the car body?
> 
> ...


also if this were to touch the chassis at the very least it would surley take out my dc to dc convertor as it is on all the time


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## tj4fa (May 25, 2008)

Ok, if your certain there is no continuity between the copper bus and the car body.

Still makes me wonder why the charger blew when you screwed the contactor closed. Oh well..


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## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

tj4fa said:


> Ok, if your certain there is no continuity between the copper bus and the car body.
> 
> Still makes me wonder why the charger blew when you screwed the contactor closed. Oh well..


its PLASMA man PLASMA

Brian


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## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

when I screw the contactor down there is always the slightest little "snap" I am sure a regular contactor makes the same snap but it is not heard due to the noise of it slamming against the contact points,,, its not like a huge arc or spike or anything,,, its just getting the caps charged in the controller. Heck I always get a pretty good spark when I hook up the dc to dc convertor.

Brian


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## tj4fa (May 25, 2008)

At least put some kind of insulated handle on that screw-post that makes contact with the bus bar. Until them, power-insulating gloves are in order.

As it stands right now from your photos, you are handling one half of the high voltage circuit in the driver's compartment (exposed live high amperage parts).

All you need to do is now is find yourself a path to ground. 

There's a differerence between AC and DC power. With AC, because the power alternates back ond forth on the wire, you have a bit of a chance of you letting go of it. DC will constrict your muscles into a death grip and won't let go.


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## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

tj4fa said:


> At least put some kind of insulated handle on that screw-post that makes contact with the bus bar. Until them, power-insulating gloves are in order.
> 
> As it stands right now from your photos, you are handling one half of the high voltage circuit in the driver's compartment (exposed live high amperage parts).
> 
> ...



the screw head is insulated from the copper it is not contacted at all. There is an insulated pad under the swivel that touches the copper,,, you can see this in the pictures as I got a pretty good close up of that ,the threaded rod is carrying 0 current or voltage through it,, There is no high voltage at all inside the car there


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## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

waiting on the big brown truck to show up with the charger parts
tick tock
tick tock
I hate waiting, should be any minute now


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## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

parts are here nicely packaged huh??

off to the garage

Brian


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## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

well [email protected][email protected]! That did not do the trick but I believe I uncovered the problem.. The fuses blew immediatly and the very first place the voltage goes is through the bridge rectifier. By looking at it it looks OK but it has to be this part, so I pulled it out and ordered a new one from Digi Key ( those guys rock) and will have that part tomorrow. I am pretty certain it is the issue,,, there is also no question the parts I repalced today were bad either as they were blown to pieces so that also had to be done,, does any one out the know exactly how I can test the bridge rectifier with an ohm meter???

Brian


found this on google

Take a multi-Meter and switch it to Ohm x 1
Test between one of the "~" and "+" legs. 
You should get either an almost-zero reading in one direction, and when you reverse the test probes, you should get an almost infinite ("sleeping 8") reading.
Now try the same between this "~" leg and "-".
Same as above.
Now repeat the same tests with the other "~" leg, and "+", and then "-".
Same as above.
If you either get almost zero or almost infinite in BOTH directions, then the rectifier is fried.


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## Bottomfeeder (Jun 13, 2008)

This might be a long process of search and replace, Brian. Usually when a component fails on a board like this it lets the smoke out of lots of other stuff. I wish you luck!

I'm also surprised that you hear a snap when you close your contactor. Aren't you using a cap-charging resistor? That should lower the voltage drop across your contactor. Weird.


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## rfengineers (Jun 2, 2008)

Hey Brian, I think you've started something. 

I drove my car about 40-miles today, so I put it on the 20-Amp Kelly charger to get it ready to tow down to West Palm for the "Battery Beach Burnout" this weekend.

The charger started up normally, then after a few seconds it shut down. Hmmm... Well I shut it off, counted to 3.14159 and turned it on again. BANG!, then it got dark. After I reset the main circuit breaker I noticed that there was smoke curling out of the back of the charger.....

I am now plugged into my backup (slow) opportunity charger. The car should be back to full charge before I leave tomorrow.

Sigh,

Joe


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## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

Bottomfeeder said:


> This might be a long process of search and replace, Brian. Usually when a component fails on a board like this it lets the smoke out of lots of other stuff. I wish you luck!
> 
> I'm also surprised that you hear a snap when you close your contactor. Aren't you using a cap-charging resistor? That should lower the voltage drop across your contactor. Weird.


YYEEEEEEE HHHAAAWWWWWWWW found a bridge rectifier and holy shi#@$%#@ it all works un frickin real huh!!!!!! going off to a open house at school so I have the car unplugged but it is doing its thing and doing it well!!!!!!!!!!!!

when I get back I will go for a scoot around the block to lower the pack voltage then I need to make some adjustments ( turn down the current) then I will sit there and watch till its done


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## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

rfengineers said:


> Hey Brian, I think you've started something.
> 
> I drove my car about 40-miles today, so I put it on the 20-Amp Kelly charger to get it ready to tow down to West Palm for the "Battery Beach Burnout" this weekend.
> 
> ...


dude thats aweful,,,,, hey I can probably fix that ya know,, I learned far to much about mine this week (heck I have only had it since Saturday) I wonder if the warranty is still good!!!! LOL


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## tj4fa (May 25, 2008)

Ehhh...don't sweat it. By 2012 none of our chargers will be working anyway. 

Those Kelly chargers are just a little more sensative to shifting frequencies. 

http://everything2.com/index.pl?node_id=690619


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

tj4fa said:


> Ehhh...don't sweat it. By 2012 none of our chargers will be working anyway.
> 
> Those Kelly chargers are just a little more sensative to shifting frequencies.
> 
> http://everything2.com/index.pl?node_id=690619


Ahh yes, the 2012 doomsday.....


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## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

david85 said:


> Ahh yes, the 2012 doomsday.....


Heck I will probably blow myself up in an electric car well before that happens


Brian


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## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

took the car out tonight to get dinner and to get the voltage down. Came back plugged it all in anf so far so good,, I will go out evry 20 minutes or so to watch it but it all looks good so far. Of course I have the other rectifier coming tomorrow which I do not need now,, the part was like 6 bucks but I will pay about 35 for overnight shipping. Oh well . The rectfier I picked up locally was 9 bucks,, I never thought I would have found one, it was a nice bit of luck. I still also have 2 chargers coming from China that will be here in a few weeks then I will pull this one out and try them out, actually the 10 amp 110 VAC will be tested by a good friend of mine with an EV. Any way maybe just mabey I am close to the point where I can actually drive the car , come home plug it in and go in the house. I surely hope so, I love to tinker but I hate going backwards,, next the heater, I am building a hot water system for it , it is way to simple my only hurdle is the thermostat but I havn't looked to hard yet for it. Love this car ( again)

Brian


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

Hey wasn't the price of oil supposed to peak in 2012? ROFLMAO gues they missed that one.....

Isn't if funny how all the doomsday predictions revolve around the 5-10 generational cycle?

Come on guys get creative for once, make a doomsday prediction for next week or something. I can't wait a whole year for the world to end much less 3, I'm a busy man!! War of the worlds, now that was a real achivement to be proud of.

Now where did I put my tin foil hat.......


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## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

rfengineers said:


> Hey Brian, I think you've started something.
> 
> I drove my car about 40-miles today, so I put it on the 20-Amp Kelly charger to get it ready to tow down to West Palm for the "Battery Beach Burnout" this weekend.
> 
> ...



inside where the main voltage comes in there are two fuses there I can pretty much assure you that those are gone and when I say gone I mean blown to bits,, if you do take the cover off and look at the output transistors I suspect they are blown or cracked up (probably the same 4 as mine) and of course the bridge rectifier is probably blowed up as well taht can easilyy be removed and easily tested total for parts about 17 bucks. Surley you can send it to Kelly and good luck with that but it should be under warranty,, but weeks or months I suspect before you see it again, keep us posted.

Brian


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## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

well the batteries are definately fully charged now can't wait to drive it around tomorow I am sure this is the first time they have ever been 100% charged. Hopefully my charging issues are behind me !!!

brian


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

I hope it holds up for you.


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## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

david85 said:


> I hope it holds up for you.


not nearly as much as I do 

I have ordered 3 more charger to test out will let ya know how thye all perform as well.

I am sure for the most part the charger is as good as it was when I put it in last Saturday,, wow lots can happen in a few days huh???

Brian


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## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

Well I spent a couple hours today putting in the Albright contactor and sure is nice to have everything work off the key like it should ,,,,,,,,,but I lost the performance I gained with the manual contactor,, it is totally noticable, I would have to say at least 25-30 % loss in acceleration, so i suppose the only fix here is to add another one of them in parallel???? That sucks for several reasons ( money , money , and more money.) To prove that I am not crazy if any one ever has a chance to by pass their contactor and go for a test spin try it out and let me know what you think... Thats all I did was add in the contactor and remove the other one,, Imeen the Albright looks beefy enough to handle a ton of current but I suppose the contact area just isn't big enough,, the car was a hoot before but today it's just fun. Any thoughts??? Has any one else ever noticed this???

Brian


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## Bottomfeeder (Jun 13, 2008)

Brian, if the contactor is hurting performance like you say, there must be a voltage drop across the contactor. Run a couple of wires to a voltmeter in the cockpit, and watch the voltage across the contactor under load (just like a current shunt). Is there a spec for your contactor that you would be able to compare it to? Perhaps you've got a dud. That seems to be your style.


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## TheSGC (Nov 15, 2007)

I did noticed this, so I added another contactor in parallel. I only have a 96 volt system, and the contactors were only $14 a piece so it wasn't a big deal. 

Take an ohm meter to the contactor when it's active and see what the resistance is. 30% loss is HUGE. maybe a 1-2%, but 30% sounds like a bad contactor.


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## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

Bottomfeeder said:


> Brian, if the contactor is hurting performance like you say, there must be a voltage drop across the contactor. Run a couple of wires to a voltmeter in the cockpit, and watch the voltage across the contactor under load (just like a current shunt). Is there a spec for your contactor that you would be able to compare it to? Perhaps you've got a dud. That seems to be your style.


ya no kidding huh??? ( duds)

thats a good idea I couls attach a volt meter to the battery in side of the contactor and compare it with the voltmeter in the car,, if its a big difference I will notice it there if it s small I may not dur to the inaccuracy of the in car volt meter. But on another note the charger is charging the car perfectly as we speak,, and of course the new voltage rectifier showd up today,, oh well a spare I guess.

Brian


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## TelnetManta (Jun 5, 2008)

If you read the whole thread you can clearly see that the cables are isolated from the mounting bracket.....






tj4fa said:


> Brian, please tell me your high-voltage cables aren't grounding out to the 12V chassis system of your car in your photo below:


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## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

TelnetManta said:


> If you read the whole thread you can clearly see that the cables are isolated from the mounting bracket.....


Ben was there a question in there???

Brian


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## tj4fa (May 25, 2008)

TelnetManta said:


> If you read the whole thread you can clearly see that the cables are isolated from the mounting bracket.....


I guess if you read the whole thread you would clearly see that has been discussed and answered...


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## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

tj4fa said:


> I guess if you read the whole thread you would clearly see that has been discussed and answered...


not necessarily cleary ,,,,, but discussed

Brian


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## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

TheSGC said:


> I did noticed this, so I added another contactor in parallel. I only have a 96 volt system, and the contactors were only $14 a piece so it wasn't a big deal.
> 
> Take an ohm meter to the contactor when it's active and see what the resistance is. 30% loss is HUGE. maybe a 1-2%, but 30% sounds like a bad contactor.



ys well for all I know it may be the controller again doing some wired stuff but that is really all I did today and I sure see a difference I guess the fast check would be temporarily connect the two leads on the contactor to one then go for a scoot,, that would answer the question pretty easily,,, with no more question marks.

I may try that this week end but I need to work ( darn work thing)
Brian


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## tj4fa (May 25, 2008)

rctous said:


> Well I spent a couple hours today putting in the Albright contactor and sure is nice to have everything work off the key like it should ,,,,,,,,,but I lost the performance I gained with the manual contactor,, it is totally noticable, I would have to say at least 25-30 % loss in acceleration, so i suppose the only fix here is to add another one of them in parallel???? That sucks for several reasons ( money , money , and more money.) To prove that I am not crazy if any one ever has a chance to by pass their contactor and go for a test spin try it out and let me know what you think... Thats all I did was add in the contactor and remove the other one,, Imeen the Albright looks beefy enough to handle a ton of current but I suppose the contact area just isn't big enough,, the car was a hoot before but today it's just fun. Any thoughts??? Has any one else ever noticed this???
> 
> Brian


Wow that is interesting. 

Could it be that the contactor you installed isn't rated for the amount of continuous amperage you are running off your battery pack? 

Your performance observation makes total sense and makes me wonder what good it is to have large gauge cables and large surface contact area battery terminal connectors and then having something like a small contact area contactor choking your available current down.

It is obvious that in your manual setup you have a _HUGE_ contact area with nothing (or likely next to nothing), to restrict the current flow.

Makes me wonder how much performance I may be missing out on having the two contactor setup. One contactor that breaks/makes the positive battery pack line and the other one that breaks/makes the negative battery pack line. Since these two are in series before the speed controller, that would seem to to me that it would further increase the resistance to current flow. 

Since I never had a manual contactor like yours as a comparison, It sounds like I never knew what I might be missing...


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## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

so here is an experiment I will try this AM. I will turn the key to Ignition to activate the contactor then I will put this 30 amp fuse holer across the main leads,, if the draw is more than 30 amps the fuse will blow,, if it does not blow then we know things are OK across the contactor, also I can use smaller fuses to see if there is ever any difference. This sounded like a very simple and accurate way to test the potential issue here.

Brian


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## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

tj4fa said:


> Wow that is interesting.
> 
> Could it be that the contactor you installed isn't rated for the amount of continuous amperage you are running off your battery pack?
> 
> ...


ya but then look at the fuses in the system , huge cable going to a tiny little 500 amp fuse yet it seems fine,, my 30 amp tester will tell us soon.

PS I have the Albright SW200 ( most everyone I see uses that contactor )


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## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

well the fuse never blew so that pretty much concludes that the contactor is fine,, What I am noticing now when I drive is that I get surges,, holding steady pedal pressure it seams to once in a while want to accelerate on it on , just a bit nothing drastic,, but when it does accelerate its only for a second or two but noticable ( that was how it felt with the good power). so three possibilities (I think).
1) loose battery connection or corroded contact
A) not loose but possibly some corrosion going on, so when I ge a chance I will use my conductive grease on all the terminals
B) bad battery? Perhaps one of the crashed ones has an occasional short and makes good contact once in a while. ( I doubt this is the issue)
C) of course the obvious,,,,,,,,,,the controller unfortunately this is where I would put my money,, but the screach has pretty much subsided I rarely if ever here it any more (it went mosly away when I did the mechanical contactor.)

So I would love to hear from you if you have other opinions or something else for me to check out,, I just hate to send in the controller again but perhaps I must. Charger still working pretty darn OK I need to replace one of the adjust resistors to lower the voltage. By the way Kelly sent me the info on all the trim pots on what they do and where they are ( of course let me know that this eliminated any warranty,, but as it is for a week old charger the warranty was over 24 hours from new.

Brian


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

If you suspect an electrical resistance issue, you could get a small pocket type IR thermometer and check all of the connections for temperature. They don't cost much and are more accurate than your hand (safer too!!!). Small differences in temperature of connectors or conductors might point you in the right direction. Check the battery temps as well to see if any of them are running warmer than normal. If a battery is suspect, you could simply swap it out with another to rule it out, or even bypass it and run a lower traction voltage to eliminate a potential dud battery.

Does the amp meter report any changes in reading when you notice the car's power fluctuating? If its enough for you to feel it, I would expect the amp meter to show something.


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## tj4fa (May 25, 2008)

rctous said:


> well the fuse never blew so that pretty much concludes that the contactor is fine,, What I am noticing now when I drive is that I get surges,,


Hmmm...I've been fighting surges for as long as I have had my EV running and now have another few things to suspect after your observation.

If I get on it, I get a few (2 to 3 quick judders) that quickly goes away. Then trying to maintain a certain range of speed around 28 to 38 MPH I get a real "choppiness" that bugs the crap out of me. It's drives fine before and after that range. This happens no matter if my batteries are fully charged or discharged some and nothing seems to be over-heating.

I've been playing rotating my driveshaft searching for a more balanced position and, all afternoon yesterday, raised my motor mounts to get the pinion angle more straight in line with the driveshaft from my transmission to the rear-end.

I've done other things like wheel balance, different tires, new universal joints, but so far nothing has worked.

I've always suspected it has something to do with my Curtis controller as the choppiness goes away if I throw it in neutral. So late yesterday, I adjusted the controller pots to increase the voltage all the way up. 
There's not much range for adjustment-about a 1/4 turn is all they give you-and the current pot was already maxed out.

Once I get the truck charged up, I'll see if the controller adjustment makes any improvement and if not, rotate out my primary and seconday contactors to see if that makes a difference.


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## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

david85 said:


> If you suspect an electrical resistance issue, you could get a small pocket type IR thermometer and check all of the connections for temperature. They don't cost much and are more accurate than your hand (safer too!!!). Small differences in temperature of connectors or conductors might point you in the right direction. Check the battery temps as well to see if any of them are running warmer than normal. If a battery is suspect, you could simply swap it out with another to rule it out, or even bypass it and run a lower traction voltage to eliminate a potential dud battery.
> 
> Does the amp meter report any changes in reading when you notice the car's power fluctuating? If its enough for you to feel it, I would expect the amp meter to show something.


I actually have two of the ir temp guns we use them alot in RC with motor and bat temps, I checked all the terminals last night after I came home and every connection is pretty much I ce cold,, no difference in any of them at all., It was like 25 degrees when I cam home last night,, now testing voltages under load on the barreries willl be next.

brian


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## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

tj4fa said:


> Hmmm...I've been fighting surges for as long as I have had my EV running and now have another few things to suspect after your observation.
> 
> If I get on it, I get a few (2 to 3 quick judders) that quickly goes away. Then trying to maintain a certain range of speed around 28 to 38 MPH I get a real "choppiness" that bugs the crap out of me. It's drives fine before and after that range. This happens no matter if my batteries are fully charged or discharged some and nothing seems to be over-heating.
> 
> ...


I also cranked up my controller the other day it was at about 50% so now bot adjustments are full,,, it made no difference for the surges though,, it is interesting and also wonder if it could be the Pot Box??? I suppose it could be, I could go to Radio Shach and get a dial pot and test it I suppose. It bugs me but really I will adapt. let me know what resaults you find out with yours. I would be curious if its the same issue with both cars.

Brian


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## tj4fa (May 25, 2008)

Swapping my contactors didn't do anything to improve the performance so more and more I'm leaning toward something to do with the controller.

One good thing about your front-wheel drive is that it would be less susceptable to being a driveline issue...


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## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

tj4fa said:


> Swapping my contactors didn't do anything to improve the performance so more and more I'm leaning toward something to do with the controller.
> 
> One good thing about your front-wheel drive is that it would be less susceptable to being a driveline issue...


ya I do not suspect that at all it msy be elctrical of some sort,, more than likely the controller.

Brian


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## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

imagine a few of these in series with your batteries...

probably be some advantages here ( like a moving Atomic bomb)

http://cgi.ebay.com/Xstatic-Model-2...4|66:2|65:12|39:1|240:1318|301:1|293:1|294:50


Brian


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## Bottomfeeder (Jun 13, 2008)

rctous said:


> so here is an experiment I will try this AM. I will turn the key to Ignition to activate the contactor then I will put this 30 amp fuse holer across the main leads,, if the draw is more than 30 amps the fuse will blow,, if it does not blow then we know things are OK across the contactor, also I can use smaller fuses to see if there is ever any difference. This sounded like a very simple and accurate way to test the potential issue here.
> 
> Brian


Brian,
Can you try the voltmeter method I prescribed? That will give you an accurate resistance number. I'm not convinced that the 30A fuse is a good pass/fail test.

Hook up the two leads of a voltmeter across the suspect contactor, and watch the voltage while drawing some amps. If you know the voltage drop across the contactor while x number of amps are going through, you can use ohm's law to calculate the resistance inside of your contactor under load. If you're seeing a noticable drop in performace with the contactor, the resistance should be significant.


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## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

Bottomfeeder said:


> Brian,
> Can you try the voltmeter method I prescribed? That will give you an accurate resistance number. I'm not convinced that the 30A fuse is a good pass/fail test.
> 
> Hook up the two leads of a voltmeter across the suspect contactor, and watch the voltage while drawing some amps. If you know the voltage drop across the contactor while x number of amps are going through, you can use ohm's law to calculate the resistance inside of your contactor under load. If you're seeing a noticable drop in performace with the contactor, the resistance should be significant.


no I haven't but I am pretty sure the fuse test eliminates the issue,, if there was a difference in voltage of course the amperage would increase across the fuse, I can place a smaller fuse across it I suppose and really narrow it down that way

brian


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## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

A couple of interesting things today first I was checking the fan on the controller just to make sure it was working ( I just recently replaced one) not even thinking the charger was on plugged in etc when I turned the key and guess what???? Nothing happened whewwwwww... So the charger issue must have been the plasmatic manual contactor I had. Thats good to know. Secondly I believe I narrowed down the surge issues ,,, of course the controller but,, I turned down the current limiter and the surges dissapeared completely. I turned it down to about 60%,, bad news is it limits the current to about 450 motor amps and that makes for a pretty boring drive. So I cranked it to 100% then down a hair. I do not know the resault yet but will let ya know, I assume the surges will once again exist. I would rather have the surges than the lower power,, perhaps I will fiddle around and pick a happy medium. As well the car/ controller has not screeched for a couple days now,, no explanation there but oh well. Its almost like it takes a couple miles for the controller to take effect after the adjustments. ( not sure)

Did I mention I love this car???

Brian


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## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

*liquid heater*

Well is is the start for my heater system. I ordered most of the other parts on E Bay and should have them tomorrow. I ordered a t-stat that will turn off at 180 degrees and turn on at 170 degrees so that should be OK. Also ordered a fule pump for the water pump system had no idea what volume or preasure I needed so I got a 115 GPH at 7 PSI. I assume (hope ) that will be OK. Of course had to order a bunch more relays. I will thurn the element on with the AC switch like I did before and in order for this to even turn on the fan must be at at least the lowest setting, in the lowest fan setting it will turn on the pump for the water so the pump starts before the element turns on. Shut off the fan it will kill the element and the element cannot be restarted untill the fan is placed on low again and the AC switch gets pressed. Should work out pretty slick. Total cost for this will be about a about $120.00. Much cheaper than the ones you can purchase. I will post more as I do more on it. By the way the element I got is a 110VAC 2000watt since I will be giving it more voltage I imagine it will be 2500-3000 watts or it may simply blow up (story of my life) I may add a 110VAC plug to this so we can preheat the car,, except we will really not drive it too much when its that cold so I probably will no do that

Brian


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## tj4fa (May 25, 2008)

I was going to buy one of these rather than messing with the quartz heater thing, but since I live in Florida, I passed on it for this winter and used the wife's hair blower before driving to work in the mornings.

http://www.jcwhitney.com/ZEROSTART-...GP_2000837_N_111+20004526+600001645_10101.jcw


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## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

tj4fa said:


> I was going to buy one of these rather than messing with the quartz heater thing, but since I live in Florida, I passed on it for this winter and used the wife's hair blower before driving to work in the mornings.
> 
> http://www.jcwhitney.com/ZEROSTART-...GP_2000837_N_111+20004526+600001645_10101.jcw


I wonder how well that would work on DC current?? Probably fine huh?

Brian


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## PatricioIN (Jun 13, 2008)

that's a very interesting setup.. curious to see how it works out for you when you're finished.


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## tj4fa (May 25, 2008)

rctous said:


> I wonder how well that would work on DC current?? Probably fine huh?
> 
> Brian


I don't think it cares whether it's AC or DC for the instantaneous heating elelment. Might be an AC circulating pump though. I figure you could plug it into AC from house current to circulate water through the heater core and/or through other places like the battery pack before driving it and then you could switch it over to DC battery pack power (if the pump operates on DC) to keep things warm when your driving.


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## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

PatricioIN said:


> .. curious to see how it works out for you when you're finished.



so am I

Brian


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

Me too. I like the idea of liquid heater instead of ceramic elements, but they are usually expensive. This looks like it could be a nice way to get a low cost electric liquid heater. Hope it works.


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## heynow999 (Mar 2, 2008)

HI

Sorry I didn't read the whole thread. I have seen a few people go with these hot water systems. Have you considered just installing a small electric hot water tank? Here's a 2.5 gallon tank.

http://www.plumbersurplus.com/Prod/Eemax-EMT2-5-Mini-Tank-Electric-Water-Heater/10414/Cat/770

Not to expensive at $165 and it comes already wired with a 110V plug. The advantage I see is that it gives you a tank that you can preheat, that is insulated, prewired and has plumbing fittings.

Are you going to use coolant or water? I guess you have to use some type of coolant for freeze protection, I wonder if you can use a propolyene based coolant that is used in soalr systems? It is non toxic, a lot nicer to work with, and you know it will be spilling at some point.

the 115 GPH pump seems a bit big, but really, who knows? How much does a water pump on an ICE pump?


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## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

heynow999 said:


> HI
> 
> Sorry I didn't read the whole thread. I have seen a few people go with these hot water systems. Have you considered just installing a small electric hot water tank? Here's a 2.5 gallon tank.
> 
> ...


not sure I need 2.5 galons of fluid the way this is set up it will probably hold less than a gallon all together, it is very small and I will tell ya I hooked up the element to my traction pack and it got real hot real quick,, I am pretty sure it will heat the small amount of water I have in seconds ( 30 probably) physically the pump does not loook very big I wanted the high volume and low presure,, this is all new to me but the results will be quick and soon if the other parts show up tomorrow I will have it done tomorrow. yes I will use anti freeze but mixed probably 30% anti freeze and 70% water I want to keep it as thin as possible at first to see how it flows,, I plan on using clear tubing so I can watch the flow,, I think the hardest part may be burping the system getting out all the air.. I am sure something will come to mind when I get there.

Also I would think a water pump on an ice pumps a lot more than taht but really have no clue I guess I could google that huh?

Brian


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## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

david85 said:


> Me too. I like the idea of liquid heater instead of ceramic elements, but they are usually expensive. This looks like it could be a nice way to get a low cost electric liquid heater. Hope it works.


it is ridiculuosly simple really,, not sure what the fule pump will think of the heat probably be ok as well as the thicker anti freeze water mix, other than that I also need to get a current draw on the element to see what it draws but I can't really do that till I have water flowing around it. I think it will be heat very fast.

Brian


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

rctous said:


> it is ridiculuosly simple really,, not sure what the fule pump will think of the heat probably be ok as well as the thicker anti freeze water mix, other than that I also need to get a current draw on the element to see what it draws but I can't really do that till I have water flowing around it. I think it will be heat very fast.
> 
> Brian


I'm wondering about the fuel pump myself. They are generally considered "liquid cooled" by the fuel itself, but I don't think this one will be adding any real pressure so maybe it won't be working hard enough for the heat to be a problem.

You're basically using an engine block heater, right? Will you run it on 12VDC?


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## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

david85 said:


> I'm wondering about the fuel pump myself. They are generally considered "liquid cooled" by the fuel itself, but I don't think this one will be adding any real pressure so maybe it won't be working hard enough for the heat to be a problem.
> 
> You're basically using an engine block heater, right? Will you run it on 12VDC?



nope its a heating element for a hot water tank rated at 110VAC at 2000 watts ( cost $9.99) also the 2000 watt ones are sort of hard to find,, most are 1500 watt ( it will run off 144VDC ) the traction pack

ya should get plenty hot plenty fast

Brian


----------



## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

rctous said:


> nope its a heating element for a hot water tank rated at 110VAC at 2000 watts ( cost $9.99) also the 2000 watt ones are sort of hard to find,, most are 1500 watt ( it will run off 144VDC ) the traction pack
> 
> ya should get plenty hot plenty fast
> 
> Brian


Holy shit uhh.....agreed.

The block heater in my truck with a 1000lb diesel engine has a mere 1500 watts and will get the whole engine close to thermostat setting in about 2-3 hours. Considering how small your setup will be, that thing will get hot and fast!


----------



## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

david85 said:


> Holy shit uhh.....agreed.
> 
> The block heater in my truck with a 1000lb diesel engine has a mere 1500 watts and will get the whole engine close to thermostat setting in about 2-3 hours. Considering how small your setup will be, that thing will get hot and fast!


yes but controlled with a t-stat that shuts off at 180 and turns on at 170 degrees so it should be safe. The picture is the t-stat I bought,, of course I will toss all the other crap that comes with it I just need the 3/8" probe part,, I will mount this right after the pump, I want to keep it away from the element.

Brian


----------



## Jimdear2 (Oct 12, 2008)

Brian,

You might do a bit of a search on hot water heating in the Technical Discussion section . There are a number of threads on this, I beleive the consensus was using a 1500 watt Zero Start block heater which contains thermo switches (Ebay or JC whitney). A used or new electric hot water heat boost pump from any number of cars models (also ebay). 

Beyond that they stayed with the factory controls for air direction control and cabin temperature control (blendoor or flow control valve) with suitible relays for heating element switching.

There was a big discussion about an open non pressurized system with a suitable expansion tank (my favorite) and pressurized systems. 

There are a couple of commercial systems (very pricey at about $600.00).

Your system has some good points, but I think you missed the automotive hot water heater boost pump. It moves a lot of water without much noise.

Hope,this helps,


----------



## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

Jimdear2 said:


> Brian,
> 
> You might do a bit of a search on hot water heating in the Technical Discussion section . There are a number of threads on this, I beleive the consensus was using a 1500 watt Zero Start block heater which contains thermo switches (Ebay or JC whitney). A used or new electric hot water heat boost pump from any number of cars models (also ebay).
> 
> ...


Thanks Jim for the pointers you don't think the fuel pump will move enough water??? 115 GPH???

Brian


----------



## Jimdear2 (Oct 12, 2008)

rctous said:


> Thanks Jim for the pointers you don't think the fuel pump will move enough water??? 115 GPH???
> 
> Brian


Brian, 

It's not the volumn I'm concerned with, it's moving a hot, corrosive liquid through through a pump not designed for it. Sort of an apple and orange thing. 

Search ebay item 110350259052 or 190289016243 for some ideas on pumps designed for the job.

Never send an orange to do an apple's job.

Hope this helps,


----------



## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

Jimdear2 said:


> Brian,
> 
> It's not the volumn I'm concerned with, it's moving a hot, corrosive liquid through through a pump not designed for it. Sort of an apple and orange thing.
> 
> ...


ya those are pretty cool pumps little pricey,, I figured if a fuel pump can pump water the it souldn't be an issue with water?? I will find out I guess,, the pump would be very easy to swap out later,, Again thaks for the pointers.

Brian


----------



## PatricioIN (Jun 13, 2008)

dude, what up?? no stars?? I gave you some


----------



## Wirecutter (Jul 26, 2007)

david85 said:


> Yes!!!! I hated that stuff too LOL. The most efficient way to get rid of it I found is to just get mad and yank as hard as you can and it will rip at the rivets.


Now *that* sounds like my kind of project...

-M


----------



## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

Fuel pump just showed up ,it looks pretty darn robust,, not sure why it couldn't handle anti freeze mixture. I will run some pump tests later today. PS,, hot wheel is not for sale it is for scale only. LOL

Brian


----------



## Jimdear2 (Oct 12, 2008)

Brian,

Thats a nice looking pump. Is it gear or diaphram and what kind of pressure is it rated for? 

Do you know what materials are used internally?

Reason I ask is I have to replace a Carter gear type fuel pump in my double engine pulling tractor. Water got into it and I had to hammer on it to get it to start pumping the final two pulls last year.

If you don't mind me asking , where did you get it and how much was it?

Thanks,


----------



## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

here is the pump in action seems like the flow id going to be perfect

brian


----------



## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

Jimdear2 said:


> Brian,
> 
> Thats a nice looking pump. Is it gear or diaphram and what kind of pressure is it rated for?
> 
> ...


Got it on e bay here is the link I hope works

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/115-...ryZ33555QQihZ012QQitemZ220368234408QQtcZphoto


----------



## Jimdear2 (Oct 12, 2008)

Brian,

Could you tell when you were running it if it was a motor gear pump (I hope) or a Solinoid Diaphram type pump?

Thanks,


----------



## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

Jimdear2 said:


> Brian,
> 
> Could you tell when you were running it if it was a motor gear pump (I hope) or a Solinoid Diaphram type pump?
> 
> Thanks,


well mabey I don't know how to tell the difference but it did not sound like a diaphram I am fairly certain it is motor driven,, It had no problem pulling water up a foot or so from the bucket without being primed, I am pretty sure its motor,, perhaps send an e-mail to the dude on e-bay,, heck he should know!!!!


Brian


----------



## tj4fa (May 25, 2008)

I Googled the Pro Comp pump and a couple forum sites said the pump was noisy as hell. 

You might want to bury it somewhere so you won't hear it.

http://www.thedieselstop.com/forums/f30/electric-fuel-pump-differences-182282/


----------



## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

tj4fa said:


> I Googled the Pro Comp pump and a couple forum sites said the pump was noisy as hell.
> 
> You might want to bury it somewhere so you won't hear it.
> 
> http://www.thedieselstop.com/forums/f30/electric-fuel-pump-differences-182282/



huh ,,,,when I ran it it was very quiet ( I thought) I will rubber mount it , surley it can't be worse than the vaccuum pump. Besides a reminder that it is on may be a good thing. Did you find out if it is a diaphram????

Brian


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## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

My charger shut off by itself yeee haawwww the first time.. I guess I was not just waiting long enough, but I will watch it again at least once more before I leave it plugged in over night,,,, but looking good!!!!

Brian


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## Voltswagen (Nov 13, 2008)

Brian
I just have to ask: Sooooo....what do you do sitting there for hours listening to the charger hum?


----------



## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

Voltswagen said:


> Brian
> I just have to ask: Sooooo....what do you do sitting there for hours listening to the charger hum?


not quite ,,, I smoke so I check it out during smoke breaks. 

Brian


----------



## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

Well here is where I am so far on the liquid heater install, got all the hardware mounted and hoses attached,, spent just a ton of money on brass adaptors to make what they should have made in the first place,, oh well,, I am going to put the batteries back in now and run a test before I get started on the internal wiring, will let ya know how the test goes soon

Brian


----------



## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

OMG it worked not only worked but fast,, it was probably not 10-15 sec there was warmth then after about 30 seconds it was hotttttt,,,, wayy wayyyy beter than the heat from the ceramic heaters,, I stopped after about a minute because I dont have the t stat wired in yet and I do not want to burn out the element , if the pump holds up this is definately the way to go!!!!!!! And I suspect it will!!! this is great!

Brian

Just checked the current draw and it 19-20 amps thats about 3000 watts of heat,, this is serious heat to not just warm but hot!!!!!


----------



## e_canuck (May 8, 2008)

rctous said:


> OMG it worked not only worked but fast,, it was probably not 10-15 sec there was warmth then after about 30 seconds it was hotttttt,,,, wayy wayyyy beter than the heat from the ceramic heaters,, I stopped after about a minute because I dont have the t stat wired in yet and I do not want to burn out the element , if the pump holds up this is definately the way to go!!!!!!! And I suspect it will!!! this is great!
> 
> Brian
> 
> Just checked the current draw and it 19-20 amps thats about 3000 watts of heat,, this is serious heat to not just warm but hot!!!!!


Hi Brian.

Glad it is working.

You made it different than my planned one. It is nice.
I might have to reconsider.

But I have a question. I do not see anything open for the volume expansion.
Is it Hidden? I fear you might bust the coper core. Perhaps spill very hot water in the cockpit.

DP


----------



## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

Ok it's all in and wired up. The hardest part of the wiring was to make the LED come on at the right time,, it actually turns on and off with the element via the t-stat, took it out for a spin and it was pretty nice and toasty,, the t-stat never kicked in ( which is good) it means the water isn't getting over 180 degrees, I guess it may depend on the fan speed as well I haven't palyed with it too much yet. Works well so far

brian


----------



## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

e_canuck said:


> Hi Brian.
> 
> Glad it is working.
> 
> ...


what would be open?? I guess if the water boiled but I realize hot water expands what do you mean??? What does a normal car have?

brian


----------



## rfengineers (Jun 2, 2008)

rctous said:


> inside where the main voltage comes in there are two fuses there I can pretty much assure you that those are gone and when I say gone I mean blown to bits,, if you do take the cover off and look at the output transistors I suspect they are blown or cracked up (probably the same 4 as mine) and of course the bridge rectifier is probably blowed up as well taht can easilyy be removed and easily tested total for parts about 17 bucks. Surley you can send it to Kelly and good luck with that but it should be under warranty,, but weeks or months I suspect before you see it again, keep us posted.
> 
> Brian


Brian,
The fuses in mine are shorted, oh, wait, they are supposed to be shorted.
The SGH80N60UFD IGBT's are "exploded". Well, two of them are. I guess I should replace all four. Are those the same transistors you had? If so, where did you get replacements? I can't find any on line that are in stock.
Also, one of my RHRG30120 30-Amp diodes is bad. Did you also order any of those?
If you have any of these as surplus can I buy them from you?

BTW, nice job on the heater. But, what's it for?

Thanks,

Joe


----------



## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

rfengineers said:


> Brian,
> The fuses in mine are shorted, oh, wait, they are supposed to be shorted.
> The SGH80N60UFD IGBT's are "exploded". Well, two of them are. I guess I should replace all four. Are those the same transistors you had? If so, where did you get replacements? I can't find any on line that are in stock.
> Also, one of my RHRG30120 30-Amp diodes is bad. Did you also order any of those?
> ...


I orderes the igbt from http://www.onlinecomponents.com/buy/FAIRCHILD/SGH80N60UFDTU/

it has an extra U but it is the part , I chose these guys because they had only a 35 dollar min order,, be sure to check your bridge rectifier or have you already???

Brian


----------



## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

rctous said:


> I orderes the igbt from http://www.onlinecomponents.com/buy/FAIRCHILD/SGH80N60UFDTU/
> 
> it has an extra U but it is the part , I chose these guys because they had only a 35 dollar min order,, be sure to check your bridge rectifier or have you already???
> 
> Brian



other than the bridgr rectifier I did not blow up any diodes


----------



## Jimdear2 (Oct 12, 2008)

rctous said:


> what would be open?? I guess if the water boiled but I realize hot water expands what do you mean??? What does a normal car have?
> 
> brian


Brian,

A normal car has a pressurized cooling system (about 15 psi) that releives excess pressure caused by fluid expansion and steam into a recovery bottle. The pressure also raises the boiling point of the water coolant mix to about 220°

Since you are not planning on exceeding 180° F you don't need the pressurized system.

What you do need though, is an expension area. Very easy to make an open expansion reservoir with your system. Tee into the return hose, from the tee connect to the BOTTOM of a fluid resivoir. Ensure that the TOP of the reservoir is above the highest point on the heater fluid flow path (Including the core) The area in the reservoir above the highest point in the flow path is the expansion area Youl'll need at least a couple of pints of expansion area. IMPORTANT, in an open system this area must be vented to the outside air, otherwise your back to a pressurized system again. 

This should make your system more efficient because the tank will hold a reserve of heated water. It will also be a lot easier to fill and burp all of the air out of the system, it should also take care of surges and compinsate for minor leakages 

In an open system you will want to fix up a dirt filter on your vent to the outside air so that as air flows in and out of the expansion tank it doesn't draw in dirt.

If you make the expansion area in the tank big enough, (sorry I don't have the math to figure this) you could use this system sealed. I wouldn't want to see pressure above 5 psi from expansion for plenty of safety margin. You shouldn't see any pressure build up from the pump itself in this system.

It looks like you have a real winner here, considerably more watts of heat then the zero start block heater.

AND YOU DON"T NEED TO REMOVE THE DASH. (lordy I hate that job)

A couple of questions. 
On your vehicle is the water flow through the heater core fully open?
Or does it have a flow control valve to control heater core temperture?

If I know that and you have trouble keeping constant temperature in the car I might be able to help out.

Have fun inventing stuff.


----------



## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

Jimdear2 said:


> Brian,
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Actually I was showing the wife how cool it was before I had all the switches done and I move the hot to cold lever on the controller to cold and I freaked out thinking I already burned out the element,, my point it that works and I can have warm or hot air or even cool air with the heater on (never would)... I think yes to answer question #1 yes it goes straight in and out,, no flow control valve.


----------



## Jimdear2 (Oct 12, 2008)

rctous said:


> Actually I was showing the wife how cool it was before I had all the switches done and I move the hot to cold lever on the controller to cold and I freaked out thinking I already burned out the element,, my point it that works and I can have warm or hot air or even cool air with the heater on (never would)... I think yes to answer question #1 yes it goes straight in and out,, no flow control valve.


Brian,

Great, a blendoor system. Better because the core stays a constant temp, no constant expand/contract = leakage problems.

You didn't comment on the expansion tank. You may be thinking "hey it works, leave it alone". To an extent I agree except that heat up/cool down constant pressure up down cycle may eventually cause problems if your car is equipped with one of those plastic and aluiminum heater cores. I know I made it sound complicated because I wanted to cover all the bases. But I think if you think it through you'll agree it a better way and simple too.

I repeat great job. I have been touting hot water heating as a better way since I started on the site last year. I feel vindicated. 

Bless you


----------



## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

Jimdear2 said:


> Brian,
> 
> Great, a blendoor system. Better because the core stays a constant temp, no constant expand/contract = leakage problems.
> 
> ...


 i guess I didn't commment because I do not fully understand it,, I am all about not blowing stuff up ( again) but I don't understand how I run it through a tank but then the tank has a air inlet,, whay doesn't water leak out the air hole? How much pressure is too much? I know cars have a relief radiator cap at 12-15 PSI and I don't think I am any where near that. The water gets hot but not nearly like that in a ICE car. It will never exceed 180 and I don't think it gets past 170 now, I of course want to keep it simple ( like it is) but I don't want it to blow up. A hot water tank in a house is sealed isn't it? They also have a relief valve but they rarley openend by presure. What is the difference there verses what I have?

Brian


----------



## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

won't the reservoir fill up with fluid??? Then over flow?

B


----------



## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

So I think i get it the water will rise to say 1/2 to 3/4 of the canister then the water level will add presure so no more water flows into the reservoir ( or not gaining more water it still will go in there and since the system I have isn't pressurized it will not leak out. I do believe I got it

B


----------



## Hondacrzy (Mar 15, 2008)

Brian If you get time, put a thermometer in the dash and record the temp at different time intervals. It would be great to know the actual temp readings.

oh and fan speed you are using?


----------



## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

Hondacrzy said:


> Brian If you get time, put a thermometer in the dash and record the temp at different time intervals. It would be great to know the actual temp readings.
> 
> oh and fan speed you are using?


Ya I can do that your wanting to know how soon it heats up and the timing involved from start to max temp?,, The fan speed will certainly make a difference. The heat is very warm not like an ice but very warm.... WAYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY beter than my first ceramic heater was,, it was sort of warm at best.


Brian


----------



## Jimdear2 (Oct 12, 2008)

rctous said:


> i guess I didn't commment because I do not fully understand it,, I am all about not blowing stuff up ( again) but I don't understand how I run it through a tank but then the tank has a air inlet,, whay doesn't water leak out the air hole? How much pressure is too much? I know cars have a relief radiator cap at 12-15 PSI and I don't think I am any where near that. The water gets hot but not nearly like that in a ICE car. It will never exceed 180 and I don't think it gets past 170 now, I of course want to keep it simple ( like it is) but I don't want it to blow up. A hot water tank in a house is sealed isn't it? They also have a relief valve but they rarley openend by presure. What is the difference there verses what I have?
> 
> Brian


Brian,

See if my sketch helps.

There are a couple of variations. 

Type 1 doesn't really use the water in the tank as part of the heater system. 
Type 2 does but is more complicated to build. It would also be more efficient when properly insulated, more thermal mass flowing through the heater. *The important thing with both* is that when cooled off the water level in the reservoir has to be above the highest level of all components in the heater loop.

As I said before these also can be sealed systems but you *MUST* have enough space above the water level for the expansion to occure.

As it is, it *MAY* never blow up or leak. But with the expansion space it should never blow up or leak. If your thermostat or water pump fails and the water around the heat element boils you could build quite a bit of pressure amd possibly have an incedent. 

Inside the car, probably nothing more then hot wet smelly fog.

In the engine compartment that cast iron pipe might make quite a hand granade, although the rubber hoses would probably go first. 

With the open vented system steam boils up through the reservoir and vents, water flows back from the reservoir and boils then vents, this will go on quite a while and give you some warning.

Hope this clears it up.


----------



## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

Brian, I think I might steal your idea for my car. The others are right about using an expansion tank though. Even if you don't blow out the heater core or a rubber hose, the whole system will last much longer if you are running zero pressure (or close to it).


----------



## rfengineers (Jun 2, 2008)

rctous said:


> other than the bridgr rectifier I did not blow up any diodes


The diode was defective from the start. It is the reason the IGBT's blew. The leads on the diode were work-hardened and one had cracked. A little bump to the charger while in operation caused the catastrophic failure.


----------



## e_canuck (May 8, 2008)

rctous said:


> what would be open?? I guess if the water boiled but I realize hot water expands what do you mean??? What does a normal car have?
> 
> brian


Hi Brian.

Others have answered for me.

I was personaly going to use a tee and connect the original bottle for the rad. It is already attached to the car, follows it contours and as hoses connections to the bottom.

DP


----------



## Jimdear2 (Oct 12, 2008)

Brian,

On reflection, last night I was thinking that you should be getting more heater output from 3000 watts input.

Thinking back over the years of fixing cars I remembered that a lot of vehicles had to put restrictions into the heater water circuit to slow down the water flow. With that high volume pump you may be moving the water too fast.

I know it sounds screwy but it works. You might try clamping a return line partially shut or temporally insert a gate valve as an experiment.

If you do try that let me know the results, if that is the case then that is another reason to go with the heater boost pumps. instead of that big pump you are using.

Just FYI, that boost pump was designed to boost flow in the heater systems once they started installing the numerically low axle ratios used to slow down engine speed for better economy. Just wasn't enough flow volume to keep things warm enough.

They are also used in diesels at idle because diesels run so much cooler and idle so slow. 

If it refines out maybe we can combine thoughts and write a nice WIKI and stop people from wasting their time tearing into the dash and puting in heating elements.

Have fun,


----------



## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

Jimdear2 said:


> Brian,
> 
> See if my sketch helps.
> 
> ...


you should have been an artist??/ LOL that clears it up I will take a look at space and such later, its cold here today and I am going to go cruising in a bit nice and warm.

Brian


----------



## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

Well here is what I have picked out for my expansion chamber, grind off the handle, add a hose , call it a day. These were 7 bucks at Walmart last year and it is very well insulated + it will certainly make a conversation piece. Any thoughts??

Brian


----------



## Jimdear2 (Oct 12, 2008)

rctous said:


> Well here is what I have picked out for my expansion chamber, grind off the handle, add a hose , call it a day. These were 7 bucks at Walmart last year and it is very well insulated + it will certainly make a conversation piece. Any thoughts??
> 
> Brian


Brian,

WELLLLLLLLL...LL it will definatly be a conversation piece. It should work for a type 1 system with a hose barb installed into the bottom.

OPTION 1

Look at this 

https://www.surpluscenter.com/item.asp?UID=2009022702075491&catname=&qty=1&item=281452.

Drill out the barb at the bottom and replace with a suitable sized hose barb (plastic weld?) for an outlet. Do the same on one side about 1/3 of the way up for an inlet. This now becomes a flow through reservoir (better, type 2)

Couple of flat angle brackets, tank has four mount points. Ensure the water level will be above top of the highest point of system when mounted.

Return line connects to the inlet, outlet goes to the heater tank. Fill half way.





Positives
Low profile.
Already vented
A nice cap to fill system and check level.
Two more quarts in the system.
Reasonable price
Self bleeding
Negitives
Not insulated (Wrap it with something)
Might be flimsy
OPTION 2

Do like e_canuck, locate the original or an usable other make factory type coolant reservoir.

Have fun, wish my health let me still do this kind of stuff.


----------



## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

good ideas thankjs for the info I will see about doing this.

brian


----------



## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

Well I took a couple drives today and used the heater it is sure nice,, and despite all the advice from nearly everyone I am going to leave it as is. I will add a 25 amp fuse to the element for my peace of mind. I came to this comclusion after coming back from a 5 or 6 mile cruise with the heat on I came back pulled in the garage like always left the heater on and running, then checking the heater lines going into the core there is like ZERO presure in the system none nota zip. The biggest advantage I feel with the resoirvoir would be getting the air out of the system, I will come up with a way to do that somehow. Yes easy to do but gonna leave it. If the element gets over heated the fuse will blow, if the pump quits, the element overheats and the tstat doesn't kick in the fuse blows, I can never see a real situstion where the presure will build up with so much force to blow the system up. Perhaps as another precaution adding a presure relief valve may be something I may do. (but I doubt it) there simply is just NO presure developing at all. Just thought I would share,, again I compare it to the hot water tank in the house and they don't blow up too often. I will keep ya all posted as time progresses. 

Thanks all for your advice and time with me on this.

Brian


----------



## rfengineers (Jun 2, 2008)

rctous said:


> ... Just thought I would share,, again I compare it to the hot water tank in the house and they don't blow up too often.


*Water Heater Explosion Shatters Kannapolis House*

Thursday, November 1, 2007 – updated: 5:53 pm EDT November 1, 2007
*KANNAPOLIS, N.C. -- *A Kannapolis home is in pieces after an electric water heater exploded inside early Thursday...

=================================================

*Four hurt as water heater explodes* *Steam-powered tank rockets out of Burien store and over 6 lanes of traffic*
_Saturday, July 28, 2001_
*By ELAINE PORTERFIELD, PAUL SHUKOVSKY AND LEWIS KAMB*
SEATTLE POST-INTELLIGENCER REPORTERS
BURIEN -- Inside the Taqueria Zacatecas Mexican restaurant, Jorge Herrera was busy preparing meals when the walls suddenly blew apart....

==================================================

Perhaps a pressure relief valve would be a good idea.


----------



## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

rfengineers said:


> *Water Heater Explosion Shatters Kannapolis House*
> 
> Thursday, November 1, 2007 – updated: 5:53 pm EDT November 1, 2007
> *KANNAPOLIS, N.C. -- *A Kannapolis home is in pieces after an electric water heater exploded inside early Thursday...
> ...


never said it never happened its rare, a PRV will eliminate that issue entirely.


Brian


----------



## Jimdear2 (Oct 12, 2008)

rfengineers said:


> *Water Heater Explosion Shatters Kannapolis House*
> 
> Thursday, November 1, 2007 – updated: 5:53 pm EDT November 1, 2007
> *KANNAPOLIS, N.C. -- *A Kannapolis home is in pieces after an electric water heater exploded inside early Thursday...
> ...


rfengineers

WOW when you rebut you doun't mess around.

Brian,

I always tend to over engineer everything I make, so take what I say with that in mind. You should see my pullers, I have thing built in to prevent one in a million problems. Then I wonder why they are too heavy.

For everyones peace of mind look at this 

https://www.surpluscenter.com/item.asp?UID=2009022702075491&catname=&qty=1&item=41460

A 4 to 7 psi pop off valve for $5.00.

Have a gooooooooooood one,


----------



## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

Jimdear2 said:


> rfengineers
> 
> WOW when you rebut you doun't mess around.
> 
> ...


exactly!!!

Brian


----------



## rfengineers (Jun 2, 2008)

Jimdear2 said:


> rfengineers
> 
> WOW when you rebut you doun't mess around.


Engineers do tend to be a bit conservative.


----------



## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

ordered the valve ( 10 bucks for freight??? ouch)

Brian


----------



## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

rctous said:


> ordered the valve ( 10 bucks for freight??? ouch)
> 
> Brian


I do not think this is under engineered at all,,, it's all very solid tight and will probably work for the life of the car without issues, the addition of the saftey valve sums it all up. Keep it Simple. This is always the best way.

Brian


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## rfengineers (Jun 2, 2008)

rctous said:


> I do not think this is under engineered at all,,, it's all very solid tight and will probably work for the life of the car without issues, the addition of the saftey valve sums it all up. Keep it Simple. This is always the best way.
> 
> Brian


Ah, Thank you for ordering the pressure relief valve. I will sleep soundly tonight.


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## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

rfengineers said:


> Ah, Thank you for ordering the pressure relief valve. I will sleep soundly tonight.


Ya me too just drove to block buster and back (5 miles) its about 27 degrees here but it was warm inside,,,, checked again zero presure. where I am going to put the prv will also make for a filler spot I can run the pump and add water through a "T" that I will put in line. I can tell there is air in the system by the sound the pump makes. By the way the pump is pretty darn quiet,, not bad at all,, have the radion on loud enough to hear it and you can'y hear the pupm at all. I like it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Brian


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## 85Turbo (Jun 27, 2008)

hey,

i like the simplicity of maintaining the water heating system, but wonder if there is a suitable heater element that will run from 12V ?

or would that likely draw too much current ?
i have seen some of the 12V oil pan warmers on ebay, but being only about 300W max, i don't believe they would produce enough heat. especially once the water starts moving through the core ?

by the way, here in australia, it's a legal requirement to have a working heater in the car. no heater + no registration.......

Jason.


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## Jimdear2 (Oct 12, 2008)

85Turbo said:


> hey,
> 
> i like the simplicity of maintaining the water heating system, but wonder if there is a suitable heater element that will run from 12V ?
> 
> ...


There are 12 volt heater elements available (used in RV's) very simiular to the one that Brian used, those would allow you to duplicate his heater in 12 volts.

Those resistive heating elements are pretty flexible in voltage anyway. Say you have a 72 volt system you could use a 110 volt element, the wattage would just be derated, so just pick a higher watage output. You should be able to keep the heat element high voltage.


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## Voltswagen (Nov 13, 2008)

Brian
If no one else has suggested it, I think you should post your Heater Project to the Wiki with photos. I am currently working on heat for my Beetle Convertible so I have been reading your thread with much interest.

My first step was to add as much insulation as possible to the floors and firewall. I am using Hot Water Heater Wrap from Home Depot. It's similar to Dynamat but much less expensive. I have used it before in many restorations and in addition to insulating the vehicle it also has excellent sound deadining properties.
On this Beetle I am even planning to add it to the doors and quarter panels if possible. VW never insulated the doors or quarters of their Beetles that I have seen.
I recently purchased two seat heater kits from these folks for $180.00:

http://www.seatheaters.ca/products.php

My wife has heated seats in her 2003 Beetle and I was very impressed with how quickly they warm the seats and provide comfort while waiting for the car to warm up. So I thought I would try these in my 77 Beetle.
They only draw 5 amps each at 12v and I normally would only be running one of them on the drivers seat so I believe the effect on my Battery Pack would be minimal. I use a DC/DC converter. If you have ever driven a vehicle with heated seats....it's like therapy. Kinda like applying a heating pad to your lower back.
I may also install your design for primary heat. I know you have just installed this system and I hope you will keep us informed as to the effect on your Battery Pack.
Good job - Roy


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## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

85Turbo said:


> hey,
> 
> i like the simplicity of maintaining the water heating system, but wonder if there is a suitable heater element that will run from 12V ?
> 
> ...


Surley you could use a 12 volt element but I can assure you that you will be very disapointed in the amount of heat you will get. 300 watts is just not much heat, definately plan on using the traction pack for your voltage source. and if you did find an element to produce enought heat (3000watts) your amp draw would be 250 amps,, (no really an option),,

Brian


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## 85Turbo (Jun 27, 2008)

thanks,

i figured that at 12 volts, the current draw would be a killer.
now i dont know what ill do when the time comes.

evparts has a heater core (ceramic 1500W) that's rated to 180f.
might just have to go that way, much as i like the water system.

thanks again.

Jason.


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## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

85Turbo said:


> thanks,
> 
> i figured that at 12 volts, the current draw would be a killer.
> now i dont know what ill do when the time comes.
> ...


just to let you know that same ceramic element can be had at Walmart for about 19 bucks as well they have a dual element heater for 29 bucks (if you want to use 2 of them) rip it apart and there you go. I was pretty dissapointed in the cermaic heater i used before, its more of a warmer than a heater.


is it this one http://www.evparts.com/prod-HT2510.htm they are very proud of that one I tell ya. Other than the fancy metal case I am sure the element is the same

here is one for example http://www.amazon.com/dp/B000TKDQ5C...NRFKQS&tag=shopzilla_rev_1074-20&linkCode=asn

Brian


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## 85Turbo (Jun 27, 2008)

yep, thats the one.....

so it's not up to the job ?
guess ill keep looking at a water type system, like yours.

Jason.


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## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

85Turbo said:


> yep, thats the one.....
> 
> so it's not up to the job ?
> guess ill keep looking at a water type system, like yours.
> ...



I didn't say it wouldn't work I said it is a warmer not a heater thats a lot of money for barley warm air. As for the draw on the traction pack sure it is there but I do not notice any performance differences at all,, 20 amps is a bit but when I am drawing 600 or so its not very much,, yes the range will be lower but who cares its warm inside. We use this for short trip 99% of the time. If its that cold we take an ICE car. ( irony there huh)? (ice that is )

also the primry function for the heater in my opinion is to keep the window defrosted,, its just turns out the heater I have does that and actually warms the car too. an added bonus.

Brian


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## Voltswagen (Nov 13, 2008)

Brian
I wonder what the total watts and amp draw would be adding up: the pump, element and blower motor? Just wondering for planning purposes.


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## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

Voltswagen said:


> Brian
> I wonder what the total watts and amp draw would be adding up: the pump, element and blower motor? Just wondering for planning purposes.


just guessing at parts of the question

Known== element 3000 watts
pump == 60 watts ( at most 12vdc) guess
blower 10-15 amps at 12 vdc = 120-150 watts guess

the guesses must be pretty close 


Brian


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## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

I did some research on hot water expansion and forund an interesting read on a 40 gallon hot water tank. 40 gallons will expand to 40 1/2 gallons at 180 degrees which is 1.25% so if we take my system that may hold lets say 2 quarts (64 oz)(mabey 2 quarts) my heated water would expand .0648oz for a total of 64.0648 oz in the system. That by itself may sound a bit worry some untill you consider that the heater core , rubber hoses, pump etc is also going to expand as they all heat up, making room for the expanded fluid thus this is the reason I believe there is no pressure in the system what so ever . I am sure that the expansion % is higher as the temps increase, as long as the system stays at or under 180 degrees it sould be just fine. I do agree the advent of the PRV as a saftey is a great idea.. OK I will not harp on it any more.

Did go about 10 miles today in 17 degree temps outside and the heater kept the car very comfortable,, granted the car came out of a 40 degree garage.

Also my new 110 VAC charger will be here tomorrow, it is a basic no volt meter or amp meter ( couple of LED's) 12 amp out 144 vdc three stage charger so I can charge on 110VAC as well. + this give me a chance to test some less expensive Chinese chargers. Will keep ya posted on that as well.

Brian


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## John (Sep 11, 2007)

rctous said:


> I did some research on hot water expansion and forund an interesting read on a 40 gallon hot water tank. 40 gallons will expand to 40 1/2 gallons at 180 degrees which is 1.25% so if we take my system that may hold lets say 2 quarts (64 oz)(mabey 2 quarts) my heated water would expand .0648oz for a total of 64.0648 oz in the system. That by itself may sound a bit worry some untill you consider that the heater core , rubber hoses, pump etc is also going to expand as they all heat up, making room for the expanded fluid thus this is the reason I believe there is no pressure in the system what so ever . I am sure that the expansion % is higher as the temps increase, as long as the system stays at or under 180 degrees it sould be just fine. I do agree the advent of the PRV as a saftey is a great idea.. OK I will not harp on it any more.


A quick online search shows the Coefficient of volumetric thermal expansion in volume per volume per degrees Kelvin x 10^-6 of brass and aluminium at 57 and 69 respectively and water at 207. The rubber hoses should be reinforced to prevent them expanding so their ability to absorb additional volume should be very small. So with temperature rise the water volume will expand at a greater rate than the volume of its container and water being an incompressible fluid a small volume differential could result in a large pressure rise. I would consider the PRV essential.


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## Jimdear2 (Oct 12, 2008)

John said:


> With temperature rise the water volume will expand at a greater rate than the volume of its container and water being an incompressible fluid a small volume differential could result in a large pressure rise. I would consider the PRV essential.


Brian, 

I know that you are probably tired of all of us nit picking at what is a very nice piece of backyard engineering. But I have to chime in one more time. 

If you install a PRV and it vents any fluid, then once the system cools down you will in essence be creating a vacuum in your system. If you should experiance this you will notice the heater hoses collapsed flat. 

This is a condition you see a lot on ICE vehicles with bad radiator caps and yes in some cases it can cause those cheap aluminum/plastic heater cores they now use to collapse or suck an o-ring seal out of the header tank of the heater core.

The expansion and contraction differences that John mentions are the exact reason that there is expansion room in all cooling systems.

Since you do not want to use an expansion tank, a quick work around for you would be to mount the PRV on top of a stand pipe that you would tee into your system. Sort of like the short pipes that seem to go nowhere in home plumbing systems. They sre supposed to be filled with air and are there to absorb shock and expansion. 

You might have to play around with the volume of the stand pipe until it all balances out. Enough air space so that you wont vent fluid. \

With the cap off fill and run the system and let the fluid expand. Fiddle with the stand pipe size until you lose little or no fluid then let it cool and cap it with the PRV.

This should also bleed all of the air out of the system.

OR NOT

You have a GOOOOOOOOOOOd one,


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## chamilun (Jun 17, 2008)

long live those who oppose expansion tanks and pressure relief valves!!!!


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## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

as soon as the PRV gets here I will put it on. As a saftey precaution only, if it ever releases presure then I will need to re design and add a reservoir, as for now I just drove 14 miles heat on the entire time and checked when I got to destination and I am telling ya there is no pressure in the hoses what so ever, the squeeze together nicely and easily. as I said I will add the PRV but I will be out of town this wed - sunday so it will be next week before I do so.

I don't oppose the expansion tank I just don't see it being necessary in this system. I have been proved wrong in the past so that will be nothing new for me.

Thanks again all,,,,

Brian


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## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

chamilun said:


> long live those who oppose expansion tanks and pressure relief valves!!!!


expansion tanks yes PRV no.

Brian


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## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

John said:


> I would consider the PRV essential.


I agree....

Brian


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## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

John said:


> A quick online search shows the Coefficient of volumetric thermal expansion in volume per volume per degrees Kelvin x 10^-6 of brass and aluminium at 57 and 69 respectively and water at 207. The rubber hoses should be reinforced to prevent them expanding so their ability to absorb additional volume should be very small. So with temperature rise the water volume will expand at a greater rate than the volume of its container and water being an incompressible fluid a small volume differential could result in a large pressure rise. I would consider the PRV essential.



we're talking 5/8 of an ounce of water expansion, certainly the hose can and will expand that amount without issue??? It is 5/8" hose and there is about 3 feet of it in the system. Not sure what the math might be here bit but I imagine the expansion of the rubber must be micro mathmatics, still don't see the issue.

Brian


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## John (Sep 11, 2007)

rctous said:


> we're talking 5/8 of an ounce of water expansion, certainly the hose can and will expand that amount without issue??? It is 5/8" hose and there is about 3 feet of it in the system. Not sure what the math might be here bit but I imagine the expansion of the rubber must be micro mathmatics, still don't see the issue.
> 
> Brian


Your right 5/8 of an ounce of water is a tiny amount. It wouldn't take much air trapped in the system to accommodate it or much stretch of the hoses. People tend to think of rubber as compressible because it is elastic. The truth is closer to it being incompressible. When you squash it in the volume just moves else where and the total volume remains constant. So the stretch in internal volume in hoses is perhaps more dependant on the reinforcement stretching than the rubber. The expansion coefficient of rubber is marginally more that water but I didn't mention this before because it is the expansion of the reinforcement not the rubber which will change the internal volume and some of the rubber is actually internal to the reinforcement and so a higher coefficient would actually be detrimental to the volume differential. Anyway enough said it seems to be working for you in spite of all this so what do I know.


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## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

some pics from our electric car meeting last month

http://www.herrmanninc.com/EV/MAEAA/MonthlyMeetings.htm

Brian


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## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

went to the battery store today with 3 batteries that I thought were no good. I planned on buying 3 new ones. One had a crack in it from the crash and I noticed it pretty late, but I patched it and added distilled water, this made it pretty diluted and the specific gravity was pretty low, any way they played around with the batteries took out most of the fluid in the one cell added acid to it and it seems fine now. The did that to two of the batteries and sent me on my way. The third battery I had test lower on the hydrometer on one cell but with them it tested OK so they did nothing there at all. I came home with the three batteries and filled up the leaks and cracks again and will see if that works tomorrow. ( I used silicone this time). Also they mentioned to me that I should not be charging the batteies all the time like I do , they recommended using at least 50% before charging at all??? I was surprised to hear this but I guess I am learning lots about lead acid. Does any one else have an opinion on this? I hear so much and not to sure who to listen to any more.

Brian


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## PatricioIN (Jun 13, 2008)

I was also told that my deep cycle batteries will be happy and last longer if I discharge them pretty well before recharging them. Opportunity charging seems to be great for range, but not so great for the batts themselves. But, as with anything else, opinions are all across the board on this. Personally, I'll do what the manufacurer suggests. I only opp charge if I really need the extra range for a particular day. Otherwise, I run 'em down before recharging.


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## Bottomfeeder (Jun 13, 2008)

I don't remember which batteries you have, but I found this on the Trojan website: http://www.trojan-battery.com/BatteryMaintenance/Charging.aspx

It suggests keeping them topped off if you can. That's what I'm planning on doing.


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## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

Bottomfeeder said:


> I don't remember which batteries you have, but I found this on the Trojan website: http://www.trojan-battery.com/BatteryMaintenance/Charging.aspx
> 
> It suggests keeping them topped off if you can. That's what I'm planning on doing.


that was my thought as well but!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

NiCD batteries like be be deeply discharged before charging, NiMH do not care,, I am going to try discharging them further for a while and see what differences if any I notice.

Also many of my trips are 2 miles or less so after coming home I charge up for a couple three hours?? Just seems like I charge tooo much.

Brian


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## Bottomfeeder (Jun 13, 2008)

I don't understand... You're going to try the suggestions for batteries with different chemistries? Why?


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## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

Bottomfeeder said:


> I don't understand... You're going to try the suggestions for batteries with different chemistries? Why?


no not based on that at all just making the point that batteries are different. I think that recharging after the short trips I make is not good for them, if I were doing 10 mile trips then I would agree,, 90% of trips are very very short and I think they should sit for a while or be driven more before recharging. I do not think what I am doing now is good as the batteries do feel weaker,, now the weather is colder nad some had issues so there are other variables but !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Brian

I am going to buy one of these tomorrow has any one used one yet???

http://www.battery-power.info/Home/?page_id=20

they have the 144 volt onse just not listed.


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## Voltswagen (Nov 13, 2008)

Brian
Battery Desulfation devices have been around for years. I have never owned one but had a friend who did. He used it to bring nearly dead LA Batts back to life. He was a big fisherman and always killing deep cycle batteries with his monster trolling motors. He would enter tournaments and run two trolling motors on his boat to beat the other guys to the hot spots. A real fanatic. 
According to him it did extend the life of his worn out batts. Not to new condition but useable. I'm not sure what the effect would be on new batts. So, I'd like you to buy it and test it for us (heheh).

Roy


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## rfengineers (Jun 2, 2008)

rctous said:


> ...Also many of my trips are 2 miles or less so after coming home I charge up for a couple three hours?? Just seems like I charge tooo much.


I've found that if I recharge after driving only a few miles my kWh/mile (measured from the AC mains) goes way up to 2 or 2-1/2 kWh/mile. If I recharge at about 50-or-60% SOC then it drops to less than 1/2 kWh/mile.

Joe


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## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

solved a couple more problems today. The super jerky reverse and the pulsating in speed when cruising. Its the pot box. As you see in the picture i spent the 3 bucks at Radio Shack wired it in through the window (temporary of course) and taking off in reverse or forward was un real totally smooth, definately as smoothe as a gasser, now to incorporate this into my pedal and throw away my 80 dollar pot box. Very glad to resolve this one, and when cruising super smooth no jerky at all, I may tear apart the pot box to see what the issue is I am sure its dirty and that may smooth out the driving part but I don't think it will help reverse at all.

Brian


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## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

Voltswagen said:


> Brian
> Battery Desulfation devices have been around for years. I have never owned one but had a friend who did. He used it to bring nearly dead LA Batts back to life. He was a big fisherman and always killing deep cycle batteries with his monster trolling motors. He would enter tournaments and run two trolling motors on his boat to beat the other guys to the hot spots. A real fanatic.
> According to him it did extend the life of his worn out batts. Not to new condition but useable. I'm not sure what the effect would be on new batts. So, I'd like you to buy it and test it for us (heheh).
> 
> Roy



I am going to wait just a while as a friend just ordered on yesturday. I will put it on for him when it gets here. He has 24 6 volt Trojans that are nearly shot so it will be a great test. So after he gets resaults he will give them to me and then I will mabey get one then give thise resaults to you.

Brian


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## Bottomfeeder (Jun 13, 2008)

rctous said:


> solved a couple more problems today. The super jerky reverse and the pulsating in speed when cruising. Its the pot box. As you see in the picture i spent the 3 bucks at Radio Shack wired it in through the window (temporary of course) and taking off in reverse or forward was un real totally smooth, definately as smoothe as a gasser, now to incorporate this into my pedal and throw away my 80 dollar pot box. Very glad to resolve this one, and when cruising super smooth no jerky at all, I may tear apart the pot box to see what the issue is I am sure its dirty and that may smooth out the driving part but I don't think it will help reverse at all.
> 
> Brian


It's good to know that the pot is the problem. But, make sure you get a pot that has the 0-5k range over the ~45 degree rotation that your pot box probably has. A normal 5k pot with a 300 degree rotation, probably won't cut it.

The forkenswift guys started discussing this very issue, but they found an easy solution.

I look forward to hearing how it works out.


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## Jimdear2 (Oct 12, 2008)

rctous said:


> solved a couple more problems today. The super jerky reverse and the pulsating in speed when cruising. Its the pot box. As you see in the picture i spent the 3 bucks at Radio Shack wired it in through the window (temporary of course) and taking off in reverse or forward was un real totally smooth, definately as smoothe as a gasser, now to incorporate this into my pedal and throw away my 80 dollar pot box. Very glad to resolve this one, and when cruising super smooth no jerky at all, I may tear apart the pot box to see what the issue is I am sure its dirty and that may smooth out the driving part but I don't think it will help reverse at all.
> 
> Brian


Brian, please take the following in the spirit it was presented, It's the simple stuff that sometimes gets overlooked, I've seen in your posts that you are a carefull and thoughtfull DIY guy.

Before you go and tear out the pot box I wanted to ask a question. Is there any posibility that your pot box is mounted on a movable part of the drive train and you used solid linkage from the pedal (fixed to the body) and the throttle pot. In other words the linkage stays still and the pot mounted to the drive train move a little bit. I think you can see where that would lead.

(Please don't ask me how I know about this)


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## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

Jimdear2 said:


> Brian, please take the following in the spirit it was presented, It's the simple stuff that sometimes gets overlooked, I've seen in your posts that you are a carefull and thoughtfull DIY guy.
> 
> Before you go and tear out the pot box I wanted to ask a question. Is there any posibility that your pot box is mounted on a movable part of the drive train and you used solid linkage from the pedal (fixed to the body) and the throttle pot. In other words the linkage stays still and the pot mounted to the drive train move a little bit. I think you can see where that would lead.
> 
> (Please don't ask me how I know about this)


no that is not possible done tore it all apart see below 

Brian


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## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

Bottomfeeder said:


> It's good to know that the pot is the problem. But, make sure you get a pot that has the 0-5k range over the ~45 degree rotation that your pot box probably has. A normal 5k pot with a 300 degree rotation, probably won't cut it.
> 
> The forkenswift guys started discussing this very issue, but they found an easy solution.
> 
> I look forward to hearing how it works out.


well it is the 300 degrees version,,, but check out how it all works!!! Like a charm!

Brian


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## Bottomfeeder (Jun 13, 2008)

rctous said:


> well it is the 300 degrees version,,, but check out how it all works!!! Like a charm!


I'm glad to hear it's not the controller that's the issue. Pots are much cheaper and easier!


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## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

Well tore the pot box out and I will say at least for the 80 bucks or so I was able to salvage part of it,, the frame! Any way of course the pot for the standard pot box doesn't turn much so I had to overcome that,, the end resault was simple but getting there took a bit of thought. It works very well and I will tell ya this I will never pay 80 bucks for a PB 6 ever again. It is sitting tonight inside to let the JB Weld cure, then before I mount it in the car I will adjust it from under the hood. I need to add a stopper to it and thats about it,, I must say this turned out pretty darn cool!!!!!

Brian


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## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

and a few more pics of the POT BOX!!!!

Brian


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## Jimdear2 (Oct 12, 2008)

rctous said:


> Well tore the pot box out and I will say at least for the 80 bucks or so I was able to salvage part of it,, the frame! Any way of course the pot for the standard pot box doesn't turn much so I had to overcome that,, the end resault was simple but getting there took a bit of thought. It works very well and I will tell ya this I will never pay 80 bucks for a PB 6 ever again. It is sitting tonight inside to let the JB Weld cure, then before I mount it in the car I will adjust it from under the hood. I need to add a stopper to it and thats about it,, I must say this turned out pretty darn cool!!!!!
> 
> Brian


Brian,

Wow, nice work. Looks like a nice brightly lighted workshop. I wish the new pole barn was up, Got to wait for it to dry up a bit.

I'm sorry that this had to happen, maybe something got jarred loose in the crash.

Since Ive seen this problem. I'm sure glad I bought up those two NOS Curtis PB1 Throttle assemblies. Although they are gear drive, they have nowhere the resolution your going to have. You should be able to split 1 mph with that throttle. What is it about 3 to one ratio.

I was going to hang onto the PB 6 I have for back up. I think its for eBay now. Maybe I'll try one of the hall sender types if I need a replacement.


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## tj4fa (May 25, 2008)

rctous said:


> solved a couple more problems today. ...the pulsating in speed when cruising. Its the pot box.
> Brian


Cool!! Can you show a picture of the wiring you used to tie the temporary potentiometer to the controller bypassing the pot box?

I really suspect my PB-6 potbox and want to try your method with a dimmer switch as I think this will fix the jerkiness I have when I cruise at about 28-38MPH.

In my case I think it might be under warranty of some sort from my supplier. I've only been using it since November.


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## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

Jimdear2 said:


> Brian,
> 
> Wow, nice work. Looks like a nice brightly lighted workshop. I wish the new pole barn was up, Got to wait for it to dry up a bit.
> 
> ...


I am positive nothing was damaged in the crash, I tore the potentiometer apart all looked good and clean and everything, which I why I didn't bother wasting any time on it. Ya it is about 3 : 1 but I haven'r counted teeth, those were some gears I had bought years ago and always knew I would use them someday. I can't wait till tomorrow to see if it was a total success or not. I know using it by hand it was awesome.

Brian


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## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

tj4fa said:


> Cool!! Can you show a picture of the wiring you used to tie the temporary potentiometer to the controller bypassing the pot box?
> 
> I really suspect my PB-6 potbox and want to try your method with a dimmer switch as I think this will fix the jerkiness I have when I cruise at about 28-38MPH.
> 
> In my case I think it might be under warranty of some sort from my supplier. I've only been using it since November.


just cheap , cheesy 28 awg speaker wire from radio shack,, the stuff that is real hard to split apart.

Brian


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## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

just counted teeth and its 50: 20 or 2.5:1

Brian


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## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

Well I couldn't help myself so I went out and stuck the pedal in the car and went for a spin, ( in my pajamas I might add),, one word----- new car.. OK Ktwo words but it is so different now, still need to learn the pedal a bit again but no burn out backing out of the garage. works very well,, glad this is now out of my way. I has really bothered me.

Brian


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## tj4fa (May 25, 2008)

I got with Brian at EVA about my potbox and he has shipped a replacement PB-6 out as mine was still under warranty.

I'm glad I read your thread because that choppiness has been bugging the crap out of me.

I'm tempted to pull the dimmer switch out of the wall in the living room to test it out sorta like you did anyway just for fun.


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

I'm glad things worked out, but those potboxes aren't cheap! Something seems wrong with this picture.


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## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

tj4fa said:


> I got with Brian at EVA about my potbox and he has shipped a replacement PB-6 out as mine was still under warranty.
> 
> I'm glad I read your thread because that choppiness has been bugging the crap out of me.
> 
> I'm tempted to pull the dimmer switch out of the wall in the living room to test it out sorta like you did anyway just for fun.


will a dimmer switch be the right resistance?? Heck the pot I got at radio shack was 3 bucks.

The PB 6 is not very impressive (IMHO) mine is only 2 cars , 1 crash and 6 months old,, heck ya should have just asked for the pot part that would be a 5 minute swap out,, also what I like about mine is it is easily adjustable by rotating the pot from behind ( the main part) I am still tweakin a bit but when I am done I will lock it in place with fingernail polish. Adjusting the PB 6 precisely takes a bit of effort.

Brian

drove 20 miles today on the car now charging. It is nice that it is so smooth. I am curious as to why the first pot went bad,, but very glad it wasn't the controller,,,,AGAIN. The new controller has woked just awesome by the way. The squeeling part has pretty much stopped on it's own for what ever reason.


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## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

david85 said:


> I'm glad things worked out, but those potboxes aren't cheap! Something seems wrong with this picture.



not cheap at all,, a waste of money in my case. I like the added resolution I now have as well. the acceleration it completely different now, partly from the new pot and partly from the resolution I am sure.

Brian


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## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

Here again just another opinion about charging deep cycles,, I really think this is a problem I have currently, I have 4 different chargers now that I am playing with , they all seem to work well but I do have a favorit , I will post more on this later.

". Battery Cycle Life

Like a NiCad battery, a deep cycle marine battery must be "trained" in order to do its job at maximum efficiency levels. Let me give you the guaranteed recipe for disappointment. Take anew, fully charged battery and discharge it slightly. Then, put a light charge on it to top it off. Do that several times in a row and you now have a great big battery with nearly no usable power. The battery has been trained to have a shallow charge memory. Weird, but true. For best results a deep cycle battery should be worked hard, discharged heavily and then correctly recharged, fully. Deep cycle charging is almost impossible to do correctly with a manual charger. The battery wants to be charged rapidly at first and then have the balance of the charge load supplied at a successively slower rate. The last bit is only "trickled" in. Unless you "stand over" a charging battery, constantly monitoring both state of charge and charge rate as you follow the directions of a charge rate graph, adjusting the charger's output accordingly, your battery won't be giving you the performance you want by the end of a hard day's fishing. And why is it that batteries can be okay one day and totally worthless a week later, even with correct charging procedures? How can that be? Simple.


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## tj4fa (May 25, 2008)

rctous said:


> not cheap at all,, a waste of money in my case. I like the added resolution I now have as well. the acceleration it completely different now, partly from the new pot and partly from the resolution I am sure.
> 
> Brian


Brian,

Is your new pot 0-5000 ohms like the last one or do you think you have better performance because the gearing in your DIY potbox is different?


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## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

tj4fa said:


> Brian,
> 
> Is your new pot 0-5000 ohms like the last one or do you think you have better performance because the gearing in your DIY potbox is different?



yes it is still a 0-5K I am sure the gearing really makes it smother as well. The motor starts to turn at about 33 ohms.. The reason I feel its better is the resolution of the new pot,, sure the pedal moves the same distance but the rotation of the pot turns about three times more,,, so less likely to be jerky. I am going to figure out an expondential type pot,,, one that will be 0-1K for the first 25-30 % of the pedal travel then the rest of it for the last 70% (or so) this way when ya want to go super slow and for take offs the pressing of the pedal will not make big changes but smaller ones to the pot. I am sure it can be done through gearing,, perhaps an oval type gear???

Brian


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## tj4fa (May 25, 2008)

rctous said:


> yes it is still a 0-5K I am sure the gearing really makes it smother as well. The motor starts to turn at about 33 ohms.. The reason I feel its better is the resolution of the new pot,, sure the pedal moves the same distance but the rotation of the pot turns about three times more,,, so less likely to be jerky.
> Brian


Sounds logical to me a much "finer" system and less likely to have bad spots. I'll have to keep this in mind when my warrantied potbox craps out again and retrofit it like you did.

I guess I'll should start hunting for some plastic/nylon gears. Maybe these I just tore out of a lamp timer might work.


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## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

tj4fa said:


> Sounds logical to me a much "finer" system and less likely to have bad spots. I'll have to keep this in mind when my warrantied potbox craps out again and retrofit it like you did.
> 
> I guess I'll should start hunting for some plastic/nylon gears. Maybe tear apart a timer or something.



well here are the ones I got you can see I spared no expence

http://www.allelectronics.com/make-a-store/item/GR-5/SET-OF-5-GEARS-AND-BUSHINGS/-/1.html


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## tj4fa (May 25, 2008)

rctous said:


> well here are the ones I got you can see I spared no expence
> 
> http://www.allelectronics.com/make-a-store/item/GR-5/SET-OF-5-GEARS-AND-BUSHINGS/-/1.html


 
Nice.

The lamp timer I tore apart has 54 teeth on the orange gear and 96 on the brown gear. Now I need to figure out the ratio. I suck at math...

96/54=1.7777 to 1? Would that be good?


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## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

tj4fa said:


> Nice.
> 
> The lamp timer I tore apart has 54 teeth on the orange gear and 96 on the brown gear. Now I need to figure out the ratio. I suck at math...
> 
> 96/54=1.7777 to 1? Would that be good?



lots of variables. pedal throw, location of rod in the gear will charge ratio, the further out the less it will turn the main (large) gear, the closer to the center the more it will move the main gear but travel distance is drastically shortened. It is some trial and error but hey you will figure it out. I would do a higher ratio at least 2.25 :1 up to about 3 :1 keep looking around the house you know you have gears everywhere,. I would like to use very fine teeth brass gears next time.

Brian


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## rfengineers (Jun 2, 2008)

rctous said:


> "Like a NiCad battery, a deep cycle marine battery must be "trained" in order to do its job at maximum efficiency levels. Let me give you the guaranteed recipe for disappointment. Take anew, fully charged battery and discharge it slightly. Then, put a light charge on it to top it off. Do that several times in a row and you now have a great big battery with nearly no usable power. The battery has been trained to have a shallow charge memory. Weird, but true. For best results a deep cycle battery should be worked hard, discharged heavily and then correctly recharged, fully."


In regards to flooded lead acid batteries this is absolutely not true!
The worst you will do by recharging early is use a lot of extra electricity.


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## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

rfengineers said:


> In regards to flooded lead acid batteries this is absolutely not true!
> The worst you will do by recharging early is use a lot of extra electricity.


Ya thats my thought as well


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## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

So I decided to put a munual switch on my DC / dc today. I have a Cascade Audio 45 amp convertor and it is wired to stay on all the time with no 12 volt back up battery. I was concerned about the voltage while charging. I have charged it many times and have had charging voltages as hogh as 188 volts and no problems with it bit I didn't want the constant drain on the packs either. So I went to my local Ace hardware and grabbed a high dollar dpdt 20 amp switch ( 7 bucks) I wired in both terminals for extra current ability. Turned on the switch for the first time and that was it,,, it stayed on all the time, while I was at Ace I also grabbed a normal 120VAC switch for .79 wired it in and it works perfectly, Iwas a bit surprised. I am not sure how long it will last but hey so far I switched it about 30 times and it still works. The only bummer is the memory on the stereo,, of course I lose it everytime I switch it off. I will hook up a 9 volt transistor battery to it for memory.

Brian


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

Any reason why you couldn't mount a small 12V motorcycle starting battery for the radio?


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## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

david85 said:


> Any reason why you couldn't mount a small 12V motorcycle starting battery for the radio?


then ya need to maintain that battery a 9 volt battery will hold the memory for about a year on the radio,,, i just think its simpler.

Brian


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## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

Well I upgraded to a Logisystems 1000 amp controller and let me tell ya

YEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEHHHAAAWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW what a huge difference so much power I can now burn the tires pretty good, I will continue to practice and hopefully get some pics. Just wanted to share this but what a huge difference.

Brian


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

Don't get too carried away with burnouts, but if you do, WE DEMAND VIDEOS!!!!!

I think I mentioned this before, but a one wheel fire can cause problems with the differential pin.


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## Wirecutter (Jul 26, 2007)

I think this goes quite nicely to the question of "Do you really need 1000A?". Well, maybe you don't *need* it, but it sure must be great to have...

-M


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## joshg678 (Jan 25, 2009)

david85 said:


> Don't get too carried away with burnouts, but if you do, WE DEMAND VIDEOS!!!!!
> 
> I think I mentioned this before, but a one wheel fire can cause problems with the differential pin.


YES, very much so.
After about 10 hard one wheel tire fires on my white saturn, my pin started to back out and put a nice hole in tranny.


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## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

david85 said:


> Don't get too carried away with burnouts, but if you do, WE DEMAND VIDEOS!!!!!
> 
> I think I mentioned this before, but a one wheel fire can cause problems with the differential pin.


well they are not super full blown burnouts but i will work on getting some smoke for ya's I need to be able to do it in 2 nd gear instead of first but I will keep workin on it. Wow though the voltage drop with LEAD SUCKS at this kind of load, li fe batts would be the answer,,, one day one day.

Brian

Still having a blast though


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## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

Wirecutter said:


> I think this goes quite nicely to the question of "Do you really need 1000A?". Well, maybe you don't *need* it, but it sure must be great to have...
> 
> -M


OH ya after starting out with a 550 amp its totally night and day,,, always bigger is better and the price difference at this point is not much different,,, sure took my range down a ton! soon i will start driving normal again (mabey)

Brian


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## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

Well I got in 4 sample cells for some testing. These are 10 AH LifePO4 cells, 3.2 volts niminal. They have a 10 C discharge rate (which I really like) they will hold voltage very well under load. Now just need 596 more. I want to change the battery packs out of the Saturn to 192 volts 100 AH,, it should fly then. I have an A123 cell in the picture to give you an idea on its size,, it would knock off about 300 pounds compared to what I currently have.

Brian


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

What are those, Headways?


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## lottos (Jun 22, 2008)

Hey Brian, long time no hear.

Hope you, your EV and your friend's EV are all well!


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## iraqiwheels (Aug 18, 2009)

Im new to this ev consept . Saw Tom Hanks u-tub about it.
The boy next door truned his 1993 saturn SC1 in to junk with a cracked head and his father 
just gave the car no cost . The body is perfict where do I start and will this car work ? Its a 4 speed manule two door cupe . Im looking for 100 miles per charge at 70 mph is this dueable ? I need 25 miles to and from work . all highway and the speed limit is 70 mph .
Thank you 
Charles Pitschner 
aka Iraqiwheels


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

iraqiwheels said:


> Im looking for 100 miles per charge at 70 mph is this dueable ? I need 25 miles to and from work . all highway and the speed limit is 70 mph .


If you only travel 25 miles why do you want 100 miles per charge? It will take a lot of battery, (money), to get that kind of range, a lot less for 40-50 miles per charge.
If your round trip is 50 miles and you can't charge at work then you'll want at least 60 mile range or so, still a lot cheaper than 100miles.


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## Tm PV1 (Jun 5, 2010)

Brian,
I saw your Saturn on eBay and I had some questions about it. 

1. What is the HP on the motor?
2. What type of batteries are in the car?
3. Are most of the bugs worked out?
4. How easy would it be to switch to Thundersky LiFePO4?

Thanks,
Tm PV1


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