# [EVDL] Modified alternator for use in EV



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Hello everybody, This is my first post to this list and I'm very excited about being part of the community. I am in the budgeting process for converting my Porsche 944 with a 9.1 motor and 144volt battery pack. I am pretty new to EV but am currently using 2- tank WVO systems on our two diesel vehicles.

I have a GMC Suburban that is a beast of a vehicle but is great for offroading and camping. I have built an on-board welder using a modified 140amp alternator that pushes 100 - 140 volts. If this was mounted to the front shaft of the 9.1 motor, would this be beneficial for any use on an EV? Could I route the alternator output voltage into the controller along with the battery pack to produce more voltage? Please point me in another direction if this is way off base.

Thanks,
Mick Longley
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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

No, I don't see it.
If you have a bunch of batteries, you can make a stick
welder with those. 

Taking battery power and converting it to electricity
to power a welder...seems wasteful...



> --- Mick Longley <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> > Hello everybody, This is my first post to this list
> > and I'm very excited about being part of the
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

A 944 sounds like a great, fun car. You might also consider a 924S -- same suspension, but a bit narrower and lighter, and is a popular choice with racers for this reason.

You can't get something for nothing. Robbing power off the output shaft of the electric motor, to make electricity to pump back into the controller to pump it back into the motor just circulates the power, wasting some of it at each step.

What you might be able to do is use that generator to recharge the batteries every time you stop ("regenerative braking" or "regen" for short). Now, instead of sending power to heating up your brakes, you pump that power into the batteries.

If you get really fancy, you can use the motor itself to pump power back into the batteries every time you stop. This is tough to do with a cheap series system. People that want to do this often go with a more expensive AC system.

----- Original Message ----
From: Mick Longley <[email protected]>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Monday, August 6, 2007 12:49:35 PM
Subject: [EVDL] Modified alternator for use in EV

Hello everybody, This is my first post to this list and I'm very excited about being part of the community. I am in the budgeting process for converting my Porsche 944 with a 9.1 motor and 144volt battery pack. I am pretty new to EV but am currently using 2- tank WVO systems on our two diesel vehicles.

I have a GMC Suburban that is a beast of a vehicle but is great for offroading and camping. I have built an on-board welder using a modified 140amp alternator that pushes 100 - 140 volts. If this was mounted to the front shaft of the 9.1 motor, would this be beneficial for any use on an EV? Could I route the alternator output voltage into the controller along with the battery pack to produce more voltage? Please point me in another direction if this is way off base.



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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Can't make something from nothing, that makes total sense. I just thought there might be some use for a cheap and easy way to make 140-200V AC (without rectifier) or DC from an alternator.

I am thinking about the regen possibilities though. Would short bursts of 140Vdc going down hill provide a sufficient charge to make this adaptation worthwhile?

- I would put a micro switch on the pot box that would trigger when the pedal is at no throttle. (this would allow for coasting regen)
- The micro switch would supply +12Vdc from the accessory battery to the field input on the modified alternator.
- Depending on the coast speed, this has the potential of creating 200VDC or AC.

The only question I have is about the behavior of an electric motor when coasting. I have read that clutches are somewhat unnecessary due to electric motors free spinning. How can a free spinning motor turn an alternator that requires some force? Is there a piece I am missing?

Thanks for the input!

Mick
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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Hi Mick,

Maybe someone else replied and I missed it - but I believe that as long as the electric motor is still connected physically to the rest of the drivetrain it will spin anything connected to it via chain or coupling. The motor itself will freewheel i.e. offer no resistance other than minimal bearing resistance, windage, etc. but would still drive an alternator or other accessory.

Can you post details on your alternator conversion? There's several folks here who regen into their 12 volt accessory battery or run other accessories but regenning into the traction pack has lots of advantages that I can see (and is an idea that I'm exploring as well).

Frank


----- Original Message ----
From: Mick Longley <[email protected]>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Tuesday, August 7, 2007 12:15:29 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Modified alternator for use in EV

Can't make something from nothing, that makes total sense. I just thought there might be some use for a cheap and easy way to make 140-200V AC (without rectifier) or DC from an alternator.

I am thinking about the regen possibilities though. Would short bursts of 140Vdc going down hill provide a sufficient charge to make this adaptation worthwhile?

- I would put a micro switch on the pot box that would trigger when the pedal is at no throttle. (this would allow for coasting regen)
- The micro switch would supply +12Vdc from the accessory battery to the field input on the modified alternator.
- Depending on the coast speed, this has the potential of creating 200VDC or AC.

The only question I have is about the behavior of an electric motor when coasting. I have read that clutches are somewhat unnecessary due to electric motors free spinning. How can a free spinning motor turn an alternator that requires some force? Is there a piece I am missing?

Thanks for the input!

Mick
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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Hello Frank,

My EV has driven a alternator, power steering, A/C, vacuum pump and water 
pump for heating many different ways. Originally, all these devices were 
driven by a large motor, as big as a ADC 7 or 8 at a rpm of 1500 to 2000 
rpm.

The problem here, I was going up a very steep long hill to work every day, 
and when I came down, this vehicle would get up to 80 mph which became too 
dangerous at times. There was no room to install the REGEN braking system. 
It was test one time, by hanging a very large resistor off the front bumper 
which was 18 inches long and 10 inches square. It got red hot on that test.

I then direct couple the pilot shaft to a accessory drive system. I use a 
GMC diesel accessory mount that is normally mounted on the front of the 
engine. I mounted this unit to a 1/2 thick aluminum plate that is bolted 
down to a separate welded in cross members with eight rubber donut type 
engine mounts.

There is a brackets and places that the GMC units fit, even a GMC vacuum 
pump that works very good with a canister mount.

I found there was little drag on the motor while the A/C was off, and 
alternator and power steering was at a lite load. During heavy loads, this 
would increase my ampere-hour by about .5 ah.

The existing motor drive that was driving these accessories by mulitiple 
belts would pull between 20 and 25 amps off the battery. So this is a 
additional current pulling off the batteries.

Make sure the accessory drive motor feed lines do not come off before the 
battery ampere shunt, but after the shunt, otherwise you will get a error in 
battery ampere usage.

Now the advantage I had with this main motor direct drive system which use a 
Dodge Dyna Flex coupler to a shaft that is mounted with two face bearings 
that is mounted on both sides of the GMC accessory plate, is that when I let 
up on the accelerator on a very step icy hill, and have the large inverter 
alternator loaded up to provide 120 VAC 7 KW power to three heaters, three 
fans and lighting, which now holds the EV at speed when going down the hill.

Looking at the battery amp and motor amp gages at this time, they all read 0 
amps.

The third method I am using now, is the combination of small electric motors 
driving each accessory plus still driving my a series of multiple belts 
coming off a electric clutch that is mounted between the motor pilot shaft 
and accessory drive unit. You can get this electric drive from Dodge Power 
Transmission Inc which is a Device that is a inline shaft. Cost about 
$1500.00. I was able to duplicated this electric clutch by modified one of 
the large early model A/C pumps which has a longer shaft than the new pumps 
have.

Install a grease fitting in this A/C unit and pack it with white wheel 
bearing grease. Its been working great for about 4 months now, since I 
install it.

I am using four IOTA DC-DC converters connected in series/parallel to 
provide 24 to 28 volts to the separate drive motors on each accessory. A 
good motor I found is a 24 volt DC 1/2 HP that is a totally enclosed motor 
from Currie Technologies use on there Ebikes. There source is 
[email protected] or 1 800 377 4532.

This motor has a internal gear of about 3 to 1 ratio and installing taper 
lock pulley to provide another 3 to 1 ratio, you have plenty of power with 
this motor. One motor will get me up to 15 mph with my bike in a very fast 
jerk.

I haven't finish wiring up the electric motors yet, except the power 
steering is a electric driven anyway. Now the way this system will work, is 
when the main motor is under power, a micro switch on the accelerator 
disconnects the electric clutch drive and turns on the DC-DC contactors to 
the accessory electric motors.

When the accelerator is let up while coasting, then the electric clutch is 
engage and the accessory motors go off the line, and again motor and battery 
ampere is reading 0 amps.

Roland


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Frank John" <[email protected]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, August 08, 2007 6:52 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Modified alternator for use in EV


> Hi Mick,
>
> Maybe someone else replied and I missed it - but I believe that as long as 
> the electric motor is still connected physically to the rest of the 
> drivetrain it will spin anything connected to it via chain or coupling. 
> The motor itself will freewheel i.e. offer no resistance other than 
> minimal bearing resistance, windage, etc. but would still drive an 
> alternator or other accessory.
>
> Can you post details on your alternator conversion? There's several folks 
> here who regen into their 12 volt accessory battery or run other 
> accessories but regenning into the traction pack has lots of advantages 
> that I can see (and is an idea that I'm exploring as well).
>
> Frank


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Hi Frank,
Thanks for the info, follow this link to find out how to modify an alternator to put out more than 13-14Vdc or AC if you prefer.

http://mywebpages.comcast.net/t.molnar/

What would be more efficient to charge the traction pack - AC into the charger or DC directly into the pack?

Mick


----- Original Message ----
Date: Wed, 8 Aug 2007 05:52:00 -0700 (PDT)
From: Frank John <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Modified alternator for use in EV
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <[email protected]>
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Hi Mick,

Maybe someone else replied and I missed it - but I believe that as long
as the electric motor is still connected physically to the rest of the
drivetrain it will spin anything connected to it via chain or
coupling. The motor itself will freewheel i.e. offer no resistance other than
minimal bearing resistance, windage, etc. but would still drive an
alternator or other accessory.

Can you post details on your alternator conversion? There's several
folks here who regen into their 12 volt accessory battery or run other
accessories but regenning into the traction pack has lots of advantages
that I can see (and is an idea that I'm exploring as well).

Frank

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Mick Longley wrote:
> > What would be more efficient to charge the traction pack - AC into
> > the charger or DC directly into the pack?
> 
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

How about a 10Kwh permanent magnet 3phase generator for about 500$ ?

ebay : 330135056935


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

[No message]


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Jeff Shanab wrote:
> > How about a 10Kwh permanent magnet 3phase generator for about 500$ ?
> >
> > ebay : 330135056935
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

[No message]


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> TrotFox Greyfoot wrote:
> > The Honda motors are PM rotor brushless DC motors. They shouldn't
> > need controllers to act as gensets. Granted, you're going to get AC
> > out but that shouldn't be too much of a concern since everyone is
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

I can't believe I did that. "error detected between user and keyboard"

I tried to determine how much if at all the civic hybrids one may be. I
think 15kw and weather this is an absolute max or if we can push it by
running a higher rpm for example. Perhaps combining it with a modified
outboard motor in a gen trailer as they have strict emmision standards
on them.

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

I was talking about using it as an alternator. Not controller needed!

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Jeff Shanab wrote:
> > I tried to determine how much if at all the civic hybrids one may be.
> > I think 15kw and weather this is an absolute max or if we can push it
> > by running a higher rpm for example. Perhaps combining it with a
> ...


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