# Northern Minnesota Experiment number one



## fugdabug (Jul 14, 2008)

OK, so this is the scenario:

I have an older Toyota Corolla wagon that I have been hanging on to for nine years since we hit a deer and since my wife started having a bad hip... we then got a Dodge Caravan... now in early 2006 got a 2005 Corolla doing well with it.
My other beast is an 1989 Ford F-250 4x4 that has cost us as much in the past 6 years as we bought it for ($8600.00 with a plow!).
I have been for the past 20 years a silversmith/blacksmith and am a former LPN, and my wife also being an artist was a legacy systems senior programmer/analyst for some major corporate structures. We came to our Northwood home in 1990 and don't really plan on leaving it... alive at least.
I have given up on my use of coal in smithing and Silver is out of this world for cost (both to me and ultimately to my customers...)
And I am thoroughly pissed at the insanity of this world and its overuse and abuse of the natural resources. AND having been wanting to complete the jump off the social cliff that began for me in the early sixties... I am along with my wifes urging, finally going to do an 'all electric - nonhybrid' vehicle using my old Corolla wagon.

I bought 'Build your own electric vehicle', 'Convert it', 'Electric Motors and Controller Techniques', and have been digging out my library of electrical manuals... plus e-resourcing everything I can get my brain around... (I must say there is both a bunch of very encouraging material and a whole ship-load of crap out there, and I am no expert but WHY are all the materials that are truly to the point relevant more that 7 years old?)

So, now that I made my decision this is what I have going:
1. Totally dismembered old Toyota, Engine auto transaxle pretty much the entire front-end. Purchased used 1992 5-speed transaxle and new axles,
hubs, clutch assy, and (after rethinking making my own... ) clutch pedal assy. boy was that FUN to remove! Gonna be just as much fun if not more installing it in the conversion.
2. Have a local machine shop working on remaking the hub for my motor-tranny connection from the old Crankshaft and machining a collet out of new material (the hub-bushing connector spoken of and illustrated by Mike Brown in 'Convert it').
2a. Have chosen a D&D Motors ES-31b motor (a honker! geez!) Has a 1.125" single drive shaft. With Kelly 14500 series programmable controller.
3. I chose to begin with a 72 Volt system, (using the motor I bought for the drive motor I can upgrade to 144V max.) with an eye toward the need to upgrade power. In light of this I bought 6 Optima D31A batteries for the main system, and a DuraStart 12 950 CA battery for the system (lights, etc.)
4. Have an Albright Contactor, 0-5K Potentiometer for 'throttle', 500Amp Shunt, Charger, digital battery meter/monitor and fusing that I have on order from EV USA. I have decided a set of standard gauges and a few extra fuses were in order (for the system and the controller) and I ordered them from EVParts.com.
5. 12V vacuum pump unit from EVParts for brakes...

Now here is what I have schemed for the alternative:

Along with the system above, I came up with a 'back-up' system as an experimental idea.
This system consists of, 1 5.5KW generator head driven by a D&D ES-80A motor, using 4 DuraStart DeepCycle 12V batteries (27DC5). Thus a 48 Volt system with Alltrax controller, pot, fusing, contactor etc. and its own set of gauges... 
This system is to be used as an 'extension of range' system. mounted above the main battery bank which will be located behind the front seat of the passenger compartment (fully insulated and heat blanketed, boxed, and vented for warm weather operation to the outside of the vehicle). Because we live in Northern Minnesota our specific area is climate zone 2... 
we freeze to 58" depth and can see from 108f above to below -60f (temp NOT windchill) I have to plan for much alteration to the normal EV concept.
The 'backup system' is to be used as a quick charge for extending trip mileage. Our round-trip mileage to Grand Rapids MN our closest major center is about 78 miles. Our 'corner store' 18 miles round-trip...

Now my idea is this, with the stripping of engine, exhaust system, gas tank, extraneous items such as back seating, I will have a total of about 450lbs of batteries and another 125lbs of motors, and around 25lbs of conduit, boxing etc.. 

I forgot to mention I also have 2 alternators I am thinking about incorporating (one to charge the system off the motor on the auxillary unit and one off the main motor to power the vacuum and a couple of extra power outlets for plug-in power for a lap-top system monitor.

I will be using a solar powered 'fridge fan' to supply venting to the controllers and batteries. 

What is wrong with this picture?.. 
I need to know.
Respectfully yours,
fugdabug


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## Qer (May 7, 2008)

You sound like you know what you're doing. 

Two things I can think of. First, you don't need a clutch. Many EV'ers (not I, I still go ICE since I'm just dreaming/planning so far but I'm good at collecting information ) have simply thrown away the clutch to save weight and are happy with that. As far as I've understood it works nice enough to run on second gear in city traffic and third gear if you need higher speeds.

Changing gear is just a matter of releasing the accelerator, go to neutral, wait a second or two, go to the gear you want, wait a second for the synchronization to do it's magic and then hit the accelerator again. In an ICE this would of course be a pain since you have to change gears all the time (not to mention it wouldn't work since the ICE is idling all the time), but an electric motor doesn't have that problem, thus you can skip the clutch. Just change gear when you enter/leave city traffic.

Or you can keep the clutch, either way is just dandy. If you're running low voltage you might have to use the gears more and then a clutch might be handy, but personally I'm aiming at running more than 100 Volts and no clutch. One less thing that can fail...

Second, using an alternator is inefficient. It's better to use a DC/DC-converter since they're usually above 80% efficient, an alternator is probably only half that (or so). I'd say that either you have a stand alone battery for auxiliary systems (that is, 12 Volt stuff) that's big enough to handle it without help and that you charge at home or you go with a DC/DC that runs the 12 Volts from the main pack with just a small starter battery on the secondary side. You'll need some kind of battery to be able to start the controller, activate the contactor etc.

Either way is good I'd say and my understanding is that pros and cons for a separate battery are:

+ Doesn't drain the main pack
+ Dirt simple
- More weight

and for the DC/DC are:

+ You can put all the lead in the main pack -> might give more range
+ Better umpf in the head lights (good if you often drive by night)
+ One less charger
- Technically more complicated

Personally I'll probably go for DC/DC, but I also drive much in darkness. Where I live December and January are pitch dark except for a few hours in the middle of the day, so I don't compromise with the head lights. In California I bet a battery makes more sense...

Just a few cents, do with them as you wish. And welcome!


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## fugdabug (Jul 14, 2008)

Qer said:


> You sound like you know what you're doing.
> 
> Two things I can think of. First, you don't need a clutch. Many EV'ers (not I, I still go ICE since I'm just dreaming/planning so far but I'm good at collecting information ) have simply thrown away the clutch to save weight and are happy with that. As far as I've understood it works nice enough to run on second gear in city traffic and third gear if you need higher speeds.
> 
> ...


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## madderscience (Jun 28, 2008)

You are right to be worrying about battery insulation. Lead acid batteries have about 1/2 the useful energy capacity at freezing as the do at 80 degrees farenheit where they are usually rated at. at 60 below, they would be useless. You will need good insulation, heating and possibly cooling in the summer as well. Fortunately this is pretty easy and does not add much to the cost of a conversion if planned for.

a 72v car will have a top speed around 50mph, so I hope you are not planning on using it on the freeways. Maybe you don't have any where you are anyway, I don't know. a 48v system would only give a top speed around 40, look at what the old comuta-cars could do, they had 48v systems.

A DC/DC converter is best, supplemented with a smaller deep cycle battery in case the DC/DC fails. or, you could consider redudant DC/DC converters or separate one(s) for critical systems so a single failure doesn't leave you stranded.

450 pounds of batteries will probably only give a useful EV range (at speeds of 40-50) of 20-25 miles, assuming no major hills, etc so basically your corner market and back would be the limit with that quantity of lead acid battery weight. I wouldn't build a normal car conversion with less than 800lbs, even if there is a backup generator in play.

If you are considering an ICE range extender, 5.5kw is equivalent to about 8 horsepower which will probably only sustain the car's speed at 30-40mph, again assuming level driving. 50/50 with equal power coming from the batteries and generator would of course double the 20-25 mile range I mentioned earlier.

A better idea honestly if you want to build a hybrid is to just buy a toyota prius, it will probably work much better than a homemade setup will and its ICE of course has plenty of power and will be cleaner, quieter and probably more reliable than the generator engine would be. If you still want pure EV capability, you can look into a plug in conversion kit for the prius. Said kits run 10-20K and give 20-30 miles of EV range at speeds up to 35mph.

Good Luck


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## ga2500ev (Apr 20, 2008)

A bit of snippage to keep it shorter...



fugdabug said:


> Now here is what I have schemed for the alternative:
> 
> Along with the system above, I came up with a 'back-up' system as an experimental idea.
> This system consists of, 1 5.5KW generator head driven by a D&D ES-80A motor, using 4 DuraStart DeepCycle 12V batteries (27DC5). Thus a 48 Volt system with Alltrax controller, pot, fusing, contactor etc. and its own set of gauges...
> ...


My head is swimming with confusion from the above idea. At each step from auxiliary batteries to motor to genhead, to charging you lose power and efficiency.

You're already 4 batteries into a second string. Instead of the extra motor and genhead, why not simply add 2 more batteries and double the string. In fact even better would be to up the voltage to 144V. That would give you maximum efficiency for the weight you are carrying.

The second problem with the motor/genhead setup is that 5.5 kW is barely enough extra power to get you moving. Even at top efficiency you only get 76 amps @ 72 volts.

Unless you are going to drive the genhead with an alternative source of power (i.e. diesel), then just adding the extra batteries makes a lot more sense for range extension.


> Now my idea is this, with the stripping of engine, exhaust system, gas tank, extraneous items such as back seating, I will have a total of about 450lbs of batteries and another 125lbs of motors, and around 25lbs of conduit, boxing etc..
> 
> I forgot to mention I also have 2 alternators I am thinking about incorporating (one to charge the system off the motor on the auxillary unit and one off the main motor to power the vacuum and a couple of extra power outlets for plug-in power for a lap-top system monitor.
> 
> ...



Batteries are more efficient than any other technology you are proposing.

ga2500ev


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## ragee (May 25, 2008)

> Qer,
> Have you ever had or driven an EV?
> In the literature I am studying, and advice I got from EVUSA, and other sites that I have visited, the major concensus is to keep the clutch



fugdabug,

I have driven an ev and mine doesnt have a clutch. It is not a problem at all driving with out one. If you want to disengage it just push it to neutral..... very easy. I dont grind any gears and Qer is right you usually only use 2nd and 3rd. I usually shift to 4th when I am 55mph or higher and 2nd climbes most hills just fine. But all and all going without clutch is no big deal.


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## Qer (May 7, 2008)

fugdabug said:


> Have you ever had or driven an EV?


Nope. But I'm an information sponge and several people in the forum has said that you can live without a clutch (I keep writing cludge, wonder why... ) and with so many EVers agreeing I think it's safe to accept it as a truth.

Remember that an electric motor without applied power is more or less just a steel rod that extends the axle of the gear box so even if the synchronization probably takes a little bit longer due to the increased mass it's still not a problem. If you're still not convinced, just keep the clutch. You're the boss, you do it the way you prefer. After all, that's the beauty of converting it yourself. It follows *YOUR *specifications. 



fugdabug said:


> As for the DC/DC, I was thinking that by doing it alternator-wise it would not drain the battery bank, which I am trying to use 100% for traction and no other purpose...


There's no such thing as a free lunch.

The alternator uses rotary energy to generate the electricity. That rotary energy comes from the motor and the motor uses electricity to produce rotary energy. In the end you'll still take the energy from the main pack to charge the auxiliary battery, but you'll convert it to physical force and back again which is a pretty inefficient method of converting voltage.

Of course, an alternator could be used to charge the battery only when you're rolling downhill. It'd work as engine breaking, but unless you get a very big alternator it won't produce much energy (unless you live in a very hilly place) and not be much of a brake as well.

If you don't charge the auxiliary battery (either through an alternator or through a DC/DC) you'll have to dimension it big enough to handle a complete ride, which might end up with excessive weight that could do a better service in the main battery pack instead. It's all compromises, decisions, cons and pros. What's right for me might be dead wrong for you.


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## fugdabug (Jul 14, 2008)

Just to clarify some things that may have led to confusion. 

The main system is a 72V setup. I will be initializing the experiment with this system FIRST. My intentions are to run it for a couple of charges in a closed loop of distance to our friends (an 8 mile round-trip) then a larger loop within the 18 mile loop to our local store. In this way I hope to run the max. time speed trial for the system, and learn the nuances of the operation with an electro-mechanical automobile with limited traffic hindrance to provide for my and public safety. 

Upon establishing its max. speed and cruising speed capacity and max. time of operation per charge at a reasonable highway cruising speed. I will then try (if feasible) to expand the trip length to Deer River, which is 25 miles south of us and return... with a follow car of course.

After that, I will then try the 'expansion pack' the 48V reserve system driving an ES-80A Motor to generator for a quick charge. I would use this as an independent system for charging when the vehicle is parked or after a destination is reached to extend the energy available until returned home and charged from the house/garage power source. IF that works and I can incorporate it I will leave it in place.

Next I will attempt to install one alternator off of the traction motor to charge the system battery (I will not be driving at night until I can find a decent way to charge the system battery continuously). I do not find the use of a DC/DC charger to make sense... you are reducing the charge of the main pack by draining energy to feed the system battery... I believe that there must be a simpler solution to creating diverse systems that can be incorporated without detriment to the main traction system.

The other idea I thought of was to incorporate a 'gear teeth rim' on the inside of one of the rear hubs (there are rear drum brakes on the vehicle), to run a flex shaft into the cabin that would run an alternator... if such a device could be built with the proper gearing that may be a viable alternative as well.

You see in my mind... I don't just accept that 'it can't be done' until I prove that it can't be done... and if it can't I keep trying until it can be done by one means or another. I really believe that if we were to really put our heads together and hammer out ideas that seem ludicrous to many there might actually be something come of it that would set the 'nay-sayers' on their butts!!! Furthermore I also believe that there are those in the cybersphere that are 'naysayers' that may have ulterior motives to make sure experimentation doesn't get anywhere... just look at what happened to Ovonic batteries... now Chevron has the patents in hand... I am not looking to make money. I am looking to drive a clean vehicle that almost anyone can build and make sure that vehicle can take me a usable (for my needs) distance in relative comfort and that can be made such that the system can be migrated to another car body if necessary (say my little whitebird which is what we named her when we bought her new in 1989 gets too rusty or wears out) without a lot of additional expense...

I have to think this out and get ALL the input I can from those with experience or ideas or dreams no matter because then I can plug those ideas into what I am undertaking and work out bugs prior to the whole hog build. 

Another thing that came to light of recent is the use of NiLiFe battery packs. I contacted a company in England that is producing single batteries with Nickel Lithium Ion Ferrite composition. They have batteries that come in a single package from 1.5V to 196V (if I remember right) I was inquiring about two of the 72V batteries (they are each in US$ about $2200.00) that weigh only 28LBS!!! They wrote me and said they would pass me on to an American distributor they had... haven't gotten a contact yet, it has been 3 days... so may write again today. This is something I would consider after I get the initial system proven.

Well today (24th of July) I am busy working on customer items... once that is done it is on to finding aluminum plate for my adaptor face plate and motor plate. Picked up my coupler hub and bushing in town yesterday (total custom machining cost was $222.37, using the crankshaft from the original engine and the bushing from new materials. not too bad a job either!)

Hope this helps clarify what I am up to and inspires all your minds to come up with some schematics or plans that would be able to be incorporated... I am NOT shutting any possibilities out I just have a gut feeling on some of this stuff... I have been wrong before I just hope I am going correct on this...

Respectfully yours,
fugdabug


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## Qer (May 7, 2008)

I'll leave the rest to others to comment since I don't know enough about it to be able to tell if it'll work or not. However:



fugdabug said:


> Next I will attempt to install one alternator off of the traction motor to charge the system battery (I will not be driving at night until I can find a decent way to charge the system battery continuously). I do not find the use of a DC/DC charger to make sense... you are reducing the charge of the main pack by draining energy to feed the system battery... I believe that there must be a simpler solution to creating diverse systems that can be incorporated without detriment to the main traction system.
> 
> The other idea I thought of was to incorporate a 'gear teeth rim' on the inside of one of the rear hubs (there are rear drum brakes on the vehicle), to run a flex shaft into the cabin that would run an alternator... if such a device could be built with the proper gearing that may be a viable alternative as well.


Problem is no matter how you do it you will still draw energy from the main pack to charge the battery. If you connect the alternator to the main motor, to one of the wheels or to a huge propeller on the top of the car it still boils down to that it will take energy to turn the alternator and that energy has to come from somewhere. In all these case it'll come from the main pack and the main motor so no matter how you bend it, it'll still affect your range. Of all these solutions the DC/DC will be the most efficient and affect the range the least.

There simply isn't such a thing as a free lunch. Or, as Scotty would've put it, "_Ye Cannae change the laws of physics._" You can cheat by adding solar panels to your car and charge the battery with that. The energy still comes from somewhere, namely the sun, but it won't run out during our life time so from our limited perspective it's as free as it gets.


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## fugdabug (Jul 14, 2008)

Qer said:


> I'll leave the rest to others to comment since I don't know enough about it to be able to tell if it'll work or not. However:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Qer,
I understand the principle of what you are saying. However one has to take into account that depending on the freedom of travel of the alternator and HOW it is connected to the motor shaft, the resistance is the factor (a form of drag coefficient measurement) that comes into play. However the momentum of the mass of the car has a say in things. The momentum developed by the car in motion is kind of like the centrifugal momentum of a flywheel... so the minimal drag coefficient of the alternator provided the freedom of travel is at maximum should be negligible in reduction of Voltage application to the motor, or at least that is what I am betting... trust me if I could build the proper magnetic bearings for the scheme I would..! However I have questions with the eddy currents given off by them and interplay with the magnetic fields of the various components of the involved system...
 fugdabug


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## ragee (May 25, 2008)

Well it sounds interesting. I am especially interested in how you apply that 5.5kw generator as a range extender. Please keep us posted on your progress. Also I want to hear more about those batteries so when you get some response please let us know.

Thanks,
ragee


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## xrotaryguy (Jul 26, 2007)

I would recommend a heater for the batteries. Nothing fancy. It could be a normal space heater for a house. Just install it in such a way that it will not be dangerous of course. The heater could be on a thermostat so that it would only turn on when the temps got too cold. You could run it off of grid power. No sense in using it while you discharge the batteries. Just set it up to run while the car is charging.


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## BigAlum (Jun 12, 2008)

DC/DC or a stand-alone 12V battery are the ONLY options discussed here that provide "efficiency" for existing systems in the vehicle. To assume that momentum will compensate for conversion of mechanical energy to electrical energy is prue fantasy- if you believe it, you belong to the perpetual motion club, not the EV Forum. Generating 12V (or any other voltage) from a main-motor connection to an alternator simply bleeds momentum or acceleration from the main motor at the rate of energy use PLUS parasitic drag from your prefered method of coupling PLUS the inherent inefficiencies of electrical conversion - typically 10-20% loss or more. The ONLY advantage to using an alternator is the ability to use the system for REGENERATIVE BRAKING, which in this case is WAY inefficient, as in too little braking effort and too little recharging for this effort. Now, that said, the idea of an ICE generator to extend the range might be best applied by running a very efficient small engine through a generator to charge the main battery pack while parked (or EVen running). A generator running while you shop or work is a feasible method of extending your range, without the headache of attaching endless add-ons to the main motor. There, I said it. Good luck!


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## fugdabug (Jul 14, 2008)

BigAlum said:


> DC/DC or a stand-alone 12V battery are the ONLY options discussed here that provide "efficiency" for existing systems in the vehicle. To assume that momentum will compensate for conversion of mechanical energy to electrical energy is prue fantasy- if you believe it, you belong to the perpetual motion club, not the EV Forum. Generating 12V (or any other voltage) from a main-motor connection to an alternator simply bleeds momentum or acceleration from the main motor at the rate of energy use PLUS parasitic drag from your prefered method of coupling PLUS the inherent inefficiencies of electrical conversion - typically 10-20% loss or more. The ONLY advantage to using an alternator is the ability to use the system for REGENERATIVE BRAKING, which in this case is WAY inefficient, as in too little braking effort and too little recharging for this effort. Now, that said, the idea of an ICE generator to extend the range might be best applied by running a very efficient small engine through a generator to charge the main battery pack while parked (or EVen running). A generator running while you shop or work is a feasible method of extending your range, without the headache of attaching endless add-ons to the main motor. There, I said it. Good luck!


Well, number one: like I said it depends on HOW it is connected and the amount of free run for spin of the alternator, yes there will be parasitic drag, but not as much as say a belt driven connection. 
And NO I am not a believer in 'perpetual motion machines'...
And Second: I don't want to use an ICE AT ALL. The idea is to get away from paying anything more than is absolutely necessary to the gas station chain... 
Though I did think of a wonderfully simple set up using a 10Kw generator with a 22HP Kohler engine to run it, and driving an 18HP AC Motor. THAT to me would be a very simple and gas efficient hybrid.


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## fugdabug (Jul 14, 2008)

ragee said:


> Well it sounds interesting. I am especially interested in how you apply that 5.5kw generator as a range extender. Please keep us posted on your progress. Also I want to hear more about those batteries so when you get some response please let us know.
> 
> Thanks,
> ragee


Ragee,
I just got a response from an engineer a few minutes ago and sent him off a letter explaining the info I need (cost estimate included). When I get the response I will be sure to post what I get... IF these batteries are viable and REAL(!?), I would glady spread the word. I am off to the Twin Cities (MPLS/StPaul) today to pick up 5/8" 6061 Aluminum for adapter material. Mid West Steel Supply Co. in MPLS. has a sale going as it happens, on 6061 aluminum sheet (6'x12' can be bought in smaller quantity the full sheet is US$1360.00) from 1/4" to 10" thickness... I do a search yesterday... I 'bout plotz'd... there it is in front of my face... I call, calculate cost,.. plan and scheme... call them back and order. I am running down with my wife this morning (it is a 4hr trip from here to the 'Cities) for a 2'x4' piece 5/8" thick all for US$292.00. Gives me enough for 2 adaptor plates (for a car the size I am doing or comparable) and a couple of motor face plates. I have an old milling machine so... 
Be back later today, and should be able to fill in the details on the batteries (which I will post in a different thread).
Respectfully yours,
fugdabug


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## fugdabug (Jul 14, 2008)

xrotaryguy said:


> I would recommend a heater for the batteries. Nothing fancy. It could be a normal space heater for a house. Just install it in such a way that it will not be dangerous of course. The heater could be on a thermostat so that it would only turn on when the temps got too cold. You could run it off of grid power. No sense in using it while you discharge the batteries. Just set it up to run while the car is charging.


In my run today to the Twin Cities, I plan to stop at a couple of Trucker Supply outlets and get some 'battery blankets' the type that are made for Semi-Trucks with multiple battery systems and run off of household AC current. I am also scheming out HOW we are going to get cabin heat in the beast... I AM planning on using this critter in the dead of winter... Hey is it any wonder GM used to test cold weather packages in International Falls MN??? (And I-Falls DOESN'T get as cold as we do!!!) Out of the entire 48 contiguous states there are only 2 places that are ZONE 2 - a little finger that runs from the Canadian border to just south of us, and the Boundary Waters Canoe Area (Lake Kabetogema),.. So if this EV is going to be viable anywhere it better darn sure be viable here..!  (or you are going to read about a couple of human popsicles discovered on Hwy 35 North of Deer River MN...)


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## ga2500ev (Apr 20, 2008)

fugdabug said:


> Just to clarify some things that may have led to confusion.
> 
> The main system is a 72V setup. (snippage...)


That;s fine. What exactly is the total energy of your 72V pack?



> After that, I will then try the 'expansion pack' the 48V reserve system driving an ES-80A Motor to generator for a quick charge. I would use this as an independent system for charging when the vehicle is parked or after a destination is reached to extend the energy available until returned home and charged from the house/garage power source. IF that works and I can incorporate it I will leave it in place.


There's no confusion there. As I stated before all you are doing is losing energy in transferring from the 48V pack to the 72V one by doing 4 conversions:

1) 48V pack -> motor
2) Motor -> genhead
3) genhead -> charger
4) charger -> 72V pack

You already have the energy loaded into batteries. Your most efficient use of that energy is to transfer it directly to the traction motor.

Add the batteries to your main pack. It'll boost your efficiency because you'll be drawing less amps from the traction pack due to the higher voltage. It's called the Peukert effect. You can read about it here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peukert's_law

In short the effective total energy you can pull from a 120V pack is more than you can pull from a 72V pack that is backed up by a 48V pack.

I'm trying really hard here not to have you waste time, weight, energy, and efficiency with your proposed setup.



> Next I will attempt to install one alternator off of the traction motor to charge the system battery (I will not be driving at night until I can find a decent way to charge the system battery continuously).


As you've seen in the previous posts, no matter how to configure this, it's not going to work. The laws of thermodynamics is very clear that you cannot gain energy in a closed system, which is what you are proposing.

Take a minute to really think this through. Imagine the following setup (which is basically what you are proposing):

1) A 12V rechargeable battery that is 75% charged.
2) A electric motor connected to the battery.
3) An electric generator connected to the motor.
4) The generator connected back to the battery.

As with your backup 48V setup, you lose energy at each and every conversion step. And it's a closed system, so there's no external energy being input. Hopefully you can see that no matter how efficient the motor or the generator is, that there's no way for the battery to charge beyond the original 75% charge it started with.

Alternators in ICE cars work because the gas provides external energy to drive the process. There's no way to do the same with an EV.



> I do not find the use of a DC/DC charger to make sense... you are reducing the charge of the main pack by draining energy to feed the system battery...


Well yes and no. The real purpose of the remaining system battery in a DC/DC setup is to be able to drive system electronics even when the traction battery is completely turned off. It's just like the battery driving the electronics when an ICE car engine is off. Also it doesn't need to be a starter battery in an EV because the system battery doesn't have to drive a starter. So as pointed out in another thread, a smaller deep cycle battery is all that's needed for the system battery in an EV.

The purpose of the DC/DC converter is to drive the electronics from the main pack. But the voltages of the traction pack (72V-168V) is incompatible with typical car electronics (12-14V). So the converter converts those voltages.



> I believe that there must be a simpler solution to creating diverse systems that can be incorporated without detriment to the main traction system.


The absolute simplest system is to have a separate system battery and no DC/DC converter and recharge that system battery at home with a separate charger. But you run the risk of draining the system battery with no way to recharge it.

So the system battery/DC-DC converter is a compromise that takes energy from the traction pack but guarantees as long as you have traction pack energy, you can run the car system electronics. Finally you can still have lights and whatnot even when the traction pack is completely offline.

The next most important thing is that the DC/DC converter is way lighter and way more efficient than an alternator.



> The other idea I thought of was to incorporate a 'gear teeth rim' on the inside of one of the rear hubs (there are rear drum brakes on the vehicle), to run a flex shaft into the cabin that would run an alternator... if such a device could be built with the proper gearing that may be a viable alternative as well.


Same problem over and over again. It'll still drain your traction pack and will drain it more than a DC/DC converter because the gear/teeth hub/alternator will be less efficient than the DC/DC converter.

I think that you may need to acquire the following mantra:

Mechanical systems are always less efficient than electronic ones.

Say it again...

Mechanical systems are always less efficient that electronic ones.

Any system that you propose that uses an alternator (a mechanical system) will always be less efficient (and heavier by the way) than an electronic one, like the DC/DC converter.


> You see in my mind... I don't just accept that 'it can't be done' until I prove that it can't be done... and if it can't I keep trying until it can be done by one means or another. I really believe that if we were to really put our heads together and hammer out ideas that seem ludicrous to many there might actually be something come of it that would set the 'nay-sayers' on their butts!!! Furthermore I also believe that there are those in the cybersphere that are 'naysayers' that may have ulterior motives to make sure experimentation doesn't get anywhere... just look at what happened to Ovonic batteries... now Chevron has the patents in hand... I am not looking to make money. I am looking to drive a clean vehicle that almost anyone can build and make sure that vehicle can take me a usable (for my needs) distance in relative comfort and that can be made such that the system can be migrated to another car body if necessary (say my little whitebird which is what we named her when we bought her new in 1989 gets too rusty or wears out) without a lot of additional expense...


I understand where you are coming from with that sentiment. But you're not fighting with big corporations, or the cybersphere, or big government here. These are issues with the fundamental theories of physics that are backed by over 2 centuries of experimental data. It is certainly an instance were we can learn from those who have come before us.

Now there are a laundry list of practical things that you can do to increase your range and efficiency:

1) Drive slow. Drag increases energy usage by the square of the velocity. The faster you drive, the more energy it takes.

2) Cut the drag. The more aerodynamic your profile, the better your energy footprint.

3) Cut the weight. Every extra pound you lose reduces the energy required to drag that pound around.

4) Increase your battery voltage and cut your amp draw. Peukert significantly affects your total available energy.

5) Keep your batteries warm. Cold batteries lose energy. So insulate the pack, use a warmer at the house after the charge is finished, and never let your pack completely drain because then the electrolyte is water and can easily freeze.

If you focus on these, instead of trying to game the laws of thermodynamics, then you'll get a much better result.

Hope this helps,

ga2500ev


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## fugdabug (Jul 14, 2008)

Well all I can say to all you have said is: Let me build it first, with the stages I set out. I want to KNOW what it does in a practical real world sense. I want to get the thing to go down the road. 72V pack of D31A Optimas is equivalent to 450Amp Hours, which I know is not anywhere near the A/H I would get with something like a gazillion 8V batteries of the golf cart variety.
I am NOT trying to GAME anything... I am experimenting. Now if my reasoning seems flawed...hey ok. See you all later. I will figure it out eventually.
Bye.


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## Coley (Jul 26, 2007)

Quote:
"72V pack of D31A Optimas is equivalent to 450Amp Hours,"

How in the world did you figure this?

What does your car weigh?

I have been tinkering with 72 volts for over 3 years, a car that weighs less than 1800 lbs and have come to the conclusion that you need to do more research and up your voltage.

All of the information you have been given about alternators, double packs etc. are true.

Go to the EValbum and see what has been successful.

It could save you a lot of time, money and frustration......


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## ga2500ev (Apr 20, 2008)

fugdabug said:


> Well all I can say to all you have said is: Let me build it first, with the stages I set out. I want to KNOW what it does in a practical real world sense. I want to get the thing to go down the road.


I can respect that. I think we are all just trying with both theoretical and practical evidence to give you a good idea of what will and will not work before you invest time, money, and energy running an experiment that has no chance of succeeding.



> 72V pack of D31A Optimas is equivalent to 450Amp Hours, which I know is not anywhere near the A/H I would get with something like a gazillion 8V batteries of the golf cart variety.


Pack energy is usually measured in Watt-Hrs. You only add together amp-hours when string batteries in parallel. Since you are running the Optimas in series, the Ah stays the same (i.e. 75 Ah). So your total pack energy is 72V x 75 Ah = 5400 Wh. Your batteries are about 60 lbs each so your proposed pack will be about 360 lbs.

Both the energy and the weight are low. Generally due to the Peukert effect and the fact that you can only use 80% of the available energy of the pack, the available pack energy is derated to about 50% of the total pack energy. In addition since your voltage is really low, You'll most likely drain the pack faster due to the Peukert effect. So an expectation of about 45% available pack energy isn't unreasonable. That would give you about 2430 Whr worth of energy.

EVs generally will consume somewhere in the range of 300 Wh/mile for small to moderate size vehicles depending on terrain and other factors. If we take the 2430 Wh and divide by 300 Wh/mile we get an expected range of about 8 miles before the pack runs out of energy.

I think you said that you had Brant's book in your original post. I'm sure that it suggests that the lead acid pack weigh a minimum of 1/3 the total curb weight of the final vehicle (or about 1/2 the weight of the stripped vehicle. I'm pretty sure that your Corolla wagon isn't going to get under 2100 lbs stripped. So it's likely that you'll need a pack that's in the 1100-1200 lsb ballpark, which would be somewhere in the range of 18-20 batteries, or about 3 times more than you have initially proposed. If you organized 20 batteries into a 120V pack in two strings, you total pack energy would rise to 18000 Wh, and since you raised the voltage with Peukert you'll probably half of the pack energy available giving 9000 Wh. Presuming the Wh/mile remains in the same ballpark of 300 Wh/mile that would extend your range to about 30 miles.

The optimas are 3 times as expensive as 12V deep cycle marine batteries such as the WalMart MAXX29s. Also the marine batteries have 125 Ah ratings as opposed to 75 Ah. So a pack with 20 of them You could get upwards of 50 miles of range and it would cost you just a bit more than the 6 Optimas you planned to get anyway. I'm costing from the Optima site here:

http://www.1st-optima-batteries.com/

That show the D31As at $230 each while the WalMart Maxx29s come in at $82 each including the core charge.



> I am NOT trying to GAME anything... I am experimenting. Now if my reasoning seems flawed...hey ok. See you all later. I will figure it out eventually.
> Bye.


We really are just trying to help. Take a read of the numbers above and see if they make sense.

ga2500ev


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## BigAlum (Jun 12, 2008)

The fact of the matter is, fugdabug, whether you want to believe it or not, the energy required to run the generator by connection to the drive motor - directly, by belt or coupler, or indirectly by geared-hub connection to the wheels - comes from the main battery pack, and is MUCH MORE efficiently converted simply by using a DC/DC convertor. The laws of conservation of energy apply to all of us, even though the 'shrooms might convince us otherwise...


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## Coley (Jul 26, 2007)

You know, if you sit back and take a look at this thread....we have been had, gentlemen.

The overunity thread was getting too full so this fugdabug, sees a chance to get a shot in at the dumb EVers that want to help everyone.

We assumed this guy was on the level, but as you look back over the entire thread, it looks as though he has put up just about every point, that we know to be wrong, just to see how long it will take for us to catch on.

This is my last post at this thread. Good day, gentlemen.


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## Potshot (Jul 25, 2008)

Bummer, I just looked at this thread and was hoping it was going somewhere since I'm in Minneapolis. There's some good info on battery protection in cold weather so I guess it's not a total loss


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## fugdabug (Jul 14, 2008)

Coley said:


> You know, if you sit back and take a look at this thread....we have been had, gentlemen.
> 
> The overunity thread was getting too full so this fugdabug, sees a chance to get a shot in at the dumb EVers that want to help everyone.
> 
> ...


Wrong on ALL COUNTS.
I am just finding all the answers going in a lot of 'well this is the way it is' circles. I have been doing a LOT of research on EV design and construction. I ran the other day to MPLS to pick up the 6061 aluminum for the adapter plate... I am going to try to make it myself. I am darned if I am going to ship my transmission off to California to some "expert" who wrote a book in 1993 on EV how-to... there is more than one way to skin a cat. Besides that it would be about a six month wait... and I don't have six months to wait. 
AND I have seen some videos of some really simple experiments done by builders of EV's that incorporate a 72V system with a heavier vehicle than I have... and though they don't get much over 35 miles per charge they do move pretty good. And are super simple for wiring configurations. One fellow down in Alabama(?) is building vehicles with the alternator configuration I spoke of only on a dual shaft model motor. They seem to work for him without too much drain on the system. I believe he is using 12V cells and a 144V system in a BMW... Older gent been in the body shop business for a number of years. Seems to like BMW's because of their construction,.. now that is a HEAVY beast... 
THAT is what I was looking for PRACTICAL information not a bunch of physical/electronic theory... I can reach over my desk and read the formulae for that... I have read more electronics/aerodynamic theory in the past two months than I have every touched before in my life! But it is not being proven out by what I can see of some of these old farts putting out pickups and cars that work!!! contrary to what some say shouldn't 'because'... I watched a half ton pickup running a 144V system that is getting avg 50mph highway and 45-50 mile range... And it is heavier than my Toyota by far and not as stripped out!
I AM NOT GAMING ANYONE OR ANYTHING. I AM building according to a plan, I am willing to change my strategy... but the folks at EVUSA say 'they advise not using DC/DC' as it tends to drain valuable energy... 
As for my generator idea, that is because it serves a dual purpose... it can also serve a use upon loss of our household power. Our well is a 220V/20A unit... I can plug into the gen unit in the car when we are 'down' and we can flush the toilets and have some replenishment of water. It was an idea that made sense a sort of non-gasoline generator... I like to implement dual-use tools... 
Whether or not it will not work in the vehicle... I figured after I get the main system up to snuff (if I have to increase the battery capacity of the system up to 96, 120 or 144...) then I will try that part of the idea and only then. I want to get the beast moving first and see how far it really goes... in reality. 
SO if you think I am full of it, sorry I been worked on by experts,.. And I am NOT trying to poke fun at 'those giving advice', but those 'giving advice' I would hope have practical experience and an open mind. Just realize you are not talking to a kid here... I have been around the block a few times, and though I am not an EV expert... I am an experimenter by nature. And I want to build a fully electric system vehicle not a hybrid, not some toy... a car that runs on electricity and that is totally legitimately practical... and enjoyable. AND YESSSSS, I have had dreams of an electric motorcycle to take to the Brainerd MN raceway or the Bemidji drag strip... but fun is fun, and practical reality demands a practical tool at this time... so... I am just running ideas out there and seeing what comes back.
Speaking of enjoyment I am undertaking the installation of the clutch pedal unit today (the template of the body position is there but I had to use the gasket from the unit I got out of the dump to template the hole pattern) will be enjoying a cramped time at that today. After that it is the building of my vacuum pump system reservoir (6" PVC with end caps some scrap from my installation of run-off drains) even scrounged one fitting out of my pneumatic fittings box... will no doubt be off to the 'corner store/hardware supply' later today. Wasn't able to get the battery blankets I had hoped on the trip down and back... the 'Cities are in major disarray due to the bridge replacement construction (big bridge that collapsed a bit back). It was the pits driving even in city... eef!
Anyway... I am off to build what I can. Hopefully the remaining items on my order will be coming in soon. 
I am starting a photo/video diary also. So... later


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## Qer (May 7, 2008)

Heh, you're back! Good to hear about your progress, now I should get my ass moving too, but at least I've got stuff done too today, although not EV-related. 



fugdabug said:


> but the folks at EVUSA say 'they advise not using DC/DC' as it tends to drain valuable energy...


It might be worth pointing out here that all electronics (not only computers) are improving at an explosive rate, so are for example DC/DC-converters. However, do as you wish. Being able to flush sounds like a nice feature for example, when we lose power here (usually happens once every summer or so thanks to lightning) we have to go a bit over 20 miles to get water. Not fun, and the bl... water pump is a three phase version so the emergency power we have can't power it (only one phase).

Don't forget; pictures. We wanna see pictures.


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## fugdabug (Jul 14, 2008)

Dear Folks,
Well here it is the 3rd of September... and 'Whitebird' is on the road.
72 volt dead on to Brant's wiring diagram, minus the charger and the 12V charger, which I will wire in tonight and start building a proper battery box... I have the six batteries on the floor wells behind the front seats and I have minimal move space because of it... so different position for them is definitely in order!
I originally tried to fenagle a hybrid wiring scheme between Brown's use of relays and the Brant Traction system diagram... don't ask me 'Why?'... Let us just say that I redid the wiring completely this morning and about 2:00pm CST I touched the pedal and lurched forth from the garage. I don't know what I looked like at that point but I bet it was 'special'...
Nan says she hasn't seen me smile like this in AGES!... I can't help it! I am happier than a bug in a rug! 
We have the beginnings of an electric vehicle project that works! And, the initial system totaled about $5800.00. I am accounting 'only' the material to make the car go down the road including the material to make the adaptor plate and connection tube, standard transaxle conversion and the machining of the hub from the original crankshaft and a conical compression bushing to match. 
This amount does NOT include the tools I added to my collection, or a second system (the generator system which I may or may not put in this car), and goodies like a solar powered fan to move air out of the battery box (yet to be built), and a 12V lighter socket oscillating fan to cool or clear the windshield. 
I am a very happy person... I don't care if the damn thing gets 10 miles to a charge initially... I have a working vehicle and the project will continue from there... And 'YES', I was being stubborn about a lot of things, but at this point let me just say, if I offended or seemed like I was a fake... I am sorry and I apologize, and I am NOT a fake. I am now officially and EV builder/owner/driver. 
I am going to upload some video to YouTube of my third jaunt up the road and some pictures of my 'ugly little 1989 Toyota Carolla Wagon'. I will make sure to let you know the url. And by the way, THANK YOU for ideas and lessons... hope to be a part of this community for a LONG time!.. 
I have a car that will cost a pittance to charge! And will never see a gas station ever again!!!! 
And yeah, I AM SMILING...
I just have to get better at REVERSE! and foot control...
Respectfully yours,
fugdabug (aka: Manny of Silver Spider Forge (.com)


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