# Kelmark GT Solar Series Hybrid



## tomofreno (Mar 3, 2009)

Ambitious project, hope prices/availability come together for you!


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## Kelmark (Oct 26, 2009)

Here are some pictures from when I started working on the chassis. It was a mess! And a glimps of what the body looks like.


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## Kelmark (Oct 26, 2009)

Here are the picks of the car being shipped to me after I bought it on ebay.


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## Guest (Jan 22, 2010)

Here is a blueprint for the Kelmark GT. Wt is 1700 lbs

Pete


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## Kelmark (Oct 26, 2009)

gottdi said:


> Here is a blueprint for the Kelmark GT. Wt is 1700 lbs
> 
> Pete


Thankyou for the blueprint this will help me stay on track with how much weight I really need to remove from the car.


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## Guest (Jan 22, 2010)

While working with fiberglass boats I found that well built fiberglass bodies are not really much lighter than the steel bodies. Your ride will still be heavy unless you go with lithium but it will be a nice ride. If you can, put disc brakes on the front. It will help with the added weight. Upgrade the suspension. If you can get a narrowed beam for the front get a 2" narrowed beam and get a link pin style built for the later style pan. The link pin beam can handle more weight better than the ball joint and there is no real difference in ride quality. In my opinion the link pin is better for ride quality if the parts are new and adjusted properly. 

Pete


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## Kelmark (Oct 26, 2009)

gottdi said:


> While working with fiberglass boats I found that well built fiberglass bodies are not really much lighter than the steel bodies. Your ride will still be heavy unless you go with lithium but it will be a nice ride. If you can, put disc brakes on the front. It will help with the added weight. Upgrade the suspension. If you can get a narrowed beam for the front get a 2" narrowed beam and get a link pin style built for the later style pan. The link pin beam can handle more weight better than the ball joint and there is no real difference in ride quality. In my opinion the link pin is better for ride quality if the parts are new and adjusted properly.
> 
> Pete


You are correct in that it is not much lighter, to bad I don't have the money to thermoform the body then it would be. I am going to try to thin out some non-critical areas in the body in hopes of dropping 20lbs off the body. Also I am looking at lithium, very expensive ones... 

*Dow Kokam *SLPB 75106100 (QTY960) 
7.5 AH 3.7V 15A Cont
Dimensions; .30 x 4.17 x 3.94 = .34 pounds
40 cells wired in series = 148V Nominal-166V Charged 7.5AH pack 15A cont. = 13.6 pounds
24 packs of 40 is 148V, 180AH, 360A cont 900A peak = 326 pounds

I am also going to post some more pics of the car and some plans to trim weight later this weekend. Thanks for the sound advice.


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## Guest (Jan 22, 2010)

Don't bother trying to lighten it only an extra 20 pounds. Keep the integrity intact and you will be a happy camper. My Ghia is an all steel body and I only run 96 volts and a 9" GE motor and it still jumps to freeway speed just fine. I have had it up to 85 mph already. Trimming the fat is almost not required with the VW because it is already trim and lean. What type of batteries are you thinking of using? AGM, Flooded LA, Lithium? I have 1024 pounds of batteries on board. Heavy but runs great. The 9" motor can handle that. 

Pete


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## Kelmark (Oct 26, 2009)

Here are my latest weight reduction figures. I don’t think I will be able to get below 1800lbs for a finished curb weight but we will see as things go. Still pretty light for an EV!
*Approx Weight Breakdown:*
o Gas tank removed w/12gal of fuel -90
o New Lightweight rims and tires -30
o Difference of ball-joint front end to new link-pin -35
o Difference of VW Engine and AC-50 Kit -26
o Race windshield -25
o Sand down fiberglass body -20
o Machine 4wheel disc brakes -12
o No Spare tire -10
o Lightweight Flywheel -8
o Exhaust -6
o Front Supports change from steel to aluminum -5
o Remove bumpers -4
o Add Battery Pack +326
o Add wires, charger, BMS, DC converter, brackets +50
I am not sure which engine was used in a stock Kelmark GT (assuming 160lbs)
· Great Plains VW 1600CC 55HP 160lbs 
· Great Plains VW 2180CC 75HP 165lbs
· Great Plains VW 2600CC 96HP 190lbs 
Here is a link to a brochure but I can’t read most of it and I could order one from another site for $70 for 6 pages not sure if it is worth it.
http://www.kdf-wagen.de/kdfwagen/a_show_page.php?iid=2230


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## Guest (Jan 22, 2010)

There was no stock engine for the car. It was a kit so you could put in anything you wanted. Don't make the body skin any thinner. You want a good solid body and that 20 lbs will not make any difference unless you plan on doing nothing but racing your EV. For the street you will never notice that extra weight. 

Pete


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## Kelmark (Oct 26, 2009)

gottdi said:


> There was no stock engine for the car. It was a kit so you could put in anything you wanted. Don't make the body skin any thinner. You want a good solid body and that 20 lbs will not make any difference unless you plan on doing nothing but racing your EV. For the street you will never notice that extra weight.
> 
> Pete


I will try to avoid messing too much with the body. I was just going to have the body shop smooth out the bottom side of the body which is just rough uneven fiberglass. It might not amount to much but this car is going to be at car shows and want it to look clean.

Also the stock engine I was referring to was whatever is being portrayed in the blueprint when it says 1700 lb for the curb weight. 

Jacob


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## Guest (Jan 22, 2010)

Sanding to smooth the body is fine. Just don't sand to reduce thickness or weight. It is always good to smooth for that show quality finish.


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## Kelmark (Oct 26, 2009)

Here are som pics of the chassis with new head and pans welded on. With a fresh coat of paint and undercoating. Now I can start some of the fun stuff, intalling the new parts.


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## Kelmark (Oct 26, 2009)

I am looking for light affordable rims with a low offset. I found this one for $152ea. I know it is not a VW bolt pattern, I will modify this disc brakes to fit the smaller 4 bolt pattern. Here is a picture and some details.

If anyone knows of a better deal let me know so I can check it out.

Enkei RPF1 14x7 4x100 19mm Offset 54mm Bore Silver Wheel (8.6lbs!) The picture is of a larger 5 bolt.


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## Sunking (Aug 10, 2009)

Kelmark said:


> *Solar*
> 
> I would like to be able to get a 3 mile per day charge from thin solar cells installed on top of the car. Still in planning phase, need to research more on how to install and which cells will give the best bang per buck. Also need to determine how much my car will use at 35mph for 3miles.


Well this idea is probable not worth pursuing. One problem is your objective of Bang-for-the Buck. The least expensive $ for watt solar panels are thin film. However they are the least efficient of 10% or less. The most expensive (2 to 3 times more than thin film) are the most efficient of 17 to 19%.

Regardless of the efficiency, you can't really install enough panels oa EV to make much if any difference. I assume your electrical efficiency target is 400 wh/mile. IF you can achieve that, then that would mean the solar panel must generate 1200 wh to give you 3 miles of extra range. 

I don't know where you live and thus your solar insolation measured in Sun Hour, but assuming your winter insolation is 3 hours means you need a 600 watt solar panel array. So here lies the problem, the physical area of a 600 watt solar panel is larger than the car.


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## Kelmark (Oct 26, 2009)

Sunking said:


> Well this idea is probable not worth pursuing. One problem is your objective of Bang-for-the Buck. The least expensive $ for watt solar panels are thin film. However they are the least efficient of 10% or less. The most expensive (2 to 3 times more than thin film) are the most efficient of 17 to 19%.
> 
> Regardless of the efficiency, you can't really install enough panels oa EV to make much if any difference. I assume your electrical efficiency target is 400 wh/mile. IF you can achieve that, then that would mean the solar panel must generate 1200 wh to give you 3 miles of extra range.
> 
> I don't know where you live and thus your solar insolation measured in Sun Hour, but assuming your winter insolation is 3 hours means you need a 600 watt solar panel array. So here lies the problem, the physical area of a 600 watt solar panel is larger than the car.


I realize the solar is not going to contribute much; I hadn't gotten that far as to running the numbers. But it is more of an image thing... If I told you that I wanted to spend $1,000 for the cells and the clean, slick install what would you suggest using and how much power do you think I could generate. Here are some demensions and a car that had cells that is inspiring.


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## electromet (Oct 20, 2009)

Kelmark,

I don't want to rain on your parade, but the ideal wheels for an EV are going to be taller and narrrower. Something on the order of the original VW Bug 15x5" wheel with a 155 or 165 LRR tire is going to offer less rolling resistance and aero drag. There are numerous custom wheels available for the VW and 914 Porsche that would fit the bill.


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## Kelmark (Oct 26, 2009)

electromet said:


> Kelmark,
> 
> I don't want to rain on your parade, but the ideal wheels for an EV are going to be taller and narrrower. Something on the order of the original VW Bug 15x5" wheel with a 155 or 165 LRR tire is going to offer less rolling resistance and aero drag. There are numerous custom wheels available for the VW and 914 Porsche that would fit the bill.


Don't worry about the rain, in the Navy I learned to love the water...

Besides Bridgestone/Firestone B381 P185/70R14 has a rolling ressitance of .0062 

And orginal vw rims are typical heavy steel rims unless you going to spend more money for alloy which are not common. 

Also that narrow would be ugly on a Kelmark, the front tires on in the pictures are P215/60/R14.


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## IamIan (Mar 29, 2009)

Kelmark said:


> I realize the solar is not going to contribute much; I hadn't gotten that far as to running the numbers. But it is more of an image thing... If I told you that I wanted to spend $1,000 for the cells and the clean, slick install what would you suggest using and how much power do you think I could generate. Here are some demensions and a car that had cells that is inspiring.


While I am a fan of solar on a EV... what it takes for cost$ , Weight, and effort... it is one of the last things to target... upgrade other things first... better batteries , etc...

If you are thinking in the ~$1,000 price range.... put the solar panels on a stationary mount at your house.... you will get far more solar kwh per $ from the home instillation.

For my 2 bits... for as much as I love the idea of solar on a EV ... I would first do full Solar for the house ... and upgrade the EV's other components ... both of those before I would look into solar on the EV itself.

-----------

As for the hybrid part.... 

Any trip you take that does not use the ICE ... the ICE is a waste of space, weight , and $.

The hybrid part doesn't even start to be a net positive until you have already upgraded to Li and are traveling ~100 miles.

So for my 2 bits... Leave the ICE generator as a detachable trailer ... you can hook it up easily enough when you want to do the long trip but for all your other trips it saves you weight , space , complexity , and cost to leave it and not carry it around when it isn't going to be used.

For my 2 bits... unless you are doing ~100 mile trips on a regular basis... once a week or so... it isn't worth the losses to build it into the vehicle itself.

Also don't forget some states will still require you to pass emissions , so don't go committing yourself to and engine that you can't get to pass... which is a secondary benefit of having it be a separate trailer that might not be attached when the vehicle is inspected.


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## Kelmark (Oct 26, 2009)

IamIan said:


> While I am a fan of solar on a EV... what it takes for cost$ , Weight, and effort... it is one of the last things to target... upgrade other things first... better batteries , etc...
> 
> If you are thinking in the ~$1,000 price range.... put the solar panels on a stationary mount at your house.... you will get far more solar kwh per $ from the home instillation.
> 
> ...


You have many valid points. As for the solar on my roof I am planning on changing to some solar shingles the next time I replace shingles (Nano-solar is making this more affordable). Our electricity is really cheap so it is not a high priority yet. This car will be at car shows and will need to stand out; I thought that by having functional solar it would add uniqueness to the car. Even if it is only 2 miles at 20mph it is worth the $1,000 in image if installed right. People spend much more on custom body kits... Or other bling?

As for the hybrid part I agree that it is wasted weight. I am trying to determine the best way to integrate a removable one that will be mounted to the car. More details as I get to that point, the trailer idea was my first thought but in order to mount the hitch on this car it would be an extra 50 lbs of weight minimum. Then I have the weight of the trailer and the extra rolling resistance. Not to mention extra cost. Also in Kansas we do not have emission standards but I am looking at ways to reduce emissions because it is the proper thing to do.


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## IamIan (Mar 29, 2009)

Kelmark said:


> This car will be at car shows and will need to stand out; I thought that by having functional solar it would add uniqueness to the car. Even if it is only 2 miles at 20mph it is worth the $1,000 in image if installed right. People spend much more on custom body kits... Or other bling?


for bling and attention.. yeah well installed solar will grab attention even if it only gives 1 mile a day.


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## tomofreno (Mar 3, 2009)

> Here are som pics of the chassis with new head and pans welded on. With a fresh coat of paint and undercoating. Now I can start some of the fun stuff, intalling the new parts.


 Nice, that was quick!


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## Evilsizer (Jan 25, 2010)

should you go with solar cells on the car, you may want to look into these.
http://scientificsonline.com/product.asp_Q_pn_E_3026810
item *30268-12*
assuming your voltage controller can handler higher input voltage to achieve the right charging voltage. you may want to use either 24 or 26 cells in series to get that high V-DC.
Price per 26 cells, $778, Based on a Constant Voltage charging system.

the other cell you might consider is this one.
http://scientificsonline.com/product.asp_Q_pn_E_3052286
as pointed out some are less efficient as this one is. using 14 of 3052288 will put your voltage above highest charging voltage to the controller. 
Price for 14, $489, based around a Constant Voltage charging system.

one last solar sell i might suggest
http://www.goldmine-elec-products.com/prodinfo.asp?number=G15302
with these above at .45v take about 375 cells in series. if you have enough area on the car to place that many, it would be the best. though the cost will be higher then the other two i listed.
Price for this .45v cell at 375 cells, $1,875, not including shipping. no weight listed for each cell so no way to calculate weight added to the EV. could be either Constant voltage or constant current charging.

Since im not sure how the charging is going to happen. Is it going to be constant current or constant voltage charging? that might help in which cell to use. my suggestion of using a few more cells in series for higher voltage. Is due to what i have been looking into for solar chargers. that they can take a higher input voltage for the same charging voltage to the batteries. what this means to me by using more cells. Is that with what sun is out i can collect enough power to charge the batteries. If its kinda cloudy and im still getting some good sun it should be enough to charge the battier. same if the sun starts to go down. say the charger has 170-180 V-DC input voltage to charge at 166 V-DC. that gives you more time early morning or late evening to charge the batteries. Might be even enough to try to meet your 3 mile.

One other thing i thought of, if you can pull it off with out looking silly. implement a low starting speed windmill/turbine on the car. it would even be better since as the car is moving it would be charging at the same time. if the body was designed a bit differently you could have forced induction straight to said windmill/turbine in a hidden area under the body some where.

*edit*
im simply tossing ideas out there, how much will they work for this project i dont know. Though it does seem logical to me that using a wind type energy generation would be best for EV cars, that is built into the car it self.


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## Kelmark (Oct 26, 2009)

Sunking said:


> I assume your electrical efficiency target is 400 wh/mile. IF you can achieve that, then that would mean the solar panel must generate 1200 wh to give you 3 miles of extra range.
> 
> I don't know where you live and thus your solar insolation measured in Sun Hour, but assuming your winter insolation is 3 hours means you need a 600 watt solar panel array. So here lies the problem, the physical area of a 600 watt solar panel is larger than the car.


I thought these numbers looked a bit high so I checked out tom's E-Swift build that uses the AC-50 kit at 115V. He was getting 205 WH per mile at 50mph cruising. My car will be almost 400lbs lighter than his and likely more aerodynamic (still trying to determine). My goal would be to get down to around 180 WH per mile at 50mph.

As for my 3 mile extra range, the speed is 25mph. Just for this estimate I'll take 180/2 for the lower speed =90wh/mile. (Probably be lower in real life) Multiply that times my 3 miles equals 270 WH. "Not 1200" 

So if you say 600 watt panel is required for 1200WH. Then I really just need 135w panel at most to get 270WH. But I am not great with numbers so I could be mistaken but I think that it can be done. I just would like some constructive input on how to do it effectively.


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## Kelmark (Oct 26, 2009)

Evilsizer said:


> should you go with solar cells on the car, you may want to look into these.
> http://scientificsonline.com/product.asp_Q_pn_E_3026810
> item *30268-12*
> assuming your voltage controller can handler higher input voltage to achieve the right charging voltage. you may want to use either 24 or 26 cells in series to get that high V-DC.
> ...


 
Thank you for the links I will check them out. As for the windmill, I have seen many posts discrediting the idea, due to the drag added to the car uses more energy than you are gaining. But I have looked at some small turbines that could be set up on a pole when parked and charge your battery while away from home.


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## Evilsizer (Jan 25, 2010)

Kelmark said:


> Thank you for the links I will check them out. As for the windmill, I have seen many posts discrediting the idea, due to the drag added to the car uses more energy than you are gaining. But I have looked at some small turbines that could be set up on a pole when parked and charge your battery while away from home.


well IMO if the windmill/ turbine is part of the car design then it wouldnt impart much drag onto the car. as in say like what is used on super cars to force air through many radiators to cool the engine. that is kind of the idea i had with implementing one. the type of windmill/turbine i had in mind actually came from this video.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=376UAQWKbck&feature=player_embedded
once you get past the history of windmills/turbines you will see what im talking about. the interesting thing is how long Blower fans have been around yet it seems no one really thought about using them for a different purpose.

i wonder if using that type of fan blade for wind energy generation on say the tail end. would that really add that much drag to the car to make it not worth it even if it had to be external?

by chance do you know of any sites or threads that actually tried such a blade design on a EV? even any type of Wind+ev would be interesting to see. sorry to OT/Thread jack.


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## Kelmark (Oct 26, 2009)

Evilsizer said:


> i wonder if using that type of fan blade for wind energy generation on say the tail end. would that really add that much drag to the car to make it not worth it even if it had to be external?
> 
> by chance do you know of any sites or threads that actually tried such a blade design on a EV? even any type of Wind+ev would be interesting to see. sorry to OT/Thread jack.


Interesting thought, worth some research, haven't seen any yet but will forward anything I find.


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## Sutitan (Feb 23, 2009)

I forget exactly what I read, but it was either in Evo or Car magazine, saying that the new m5 will have some sort of micro turbines behind the grill that actually open up during deceleration to capture some energy.

or what about something like the Bugatti's air brake? but replacing it with turbines instead of a dam.










Neither idea would actually generate a substantial amount of power, but that doesn't take away from the cool factor


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## IamIan (Mar 29, 2009)

Kelmark said:


> I thought these numbers looked a bit high so I checked out tom's E-Swift build that uses the AC-50 kit at 115V. He was getting 205 WH per mile at 50mph cruising. My car will be almost 400lbs lighter than his and likely more aerodynamic (still trying to determine). My goal would be to get down to around 180 WH per mile at 50mph.


I think the ~400Wh/Mile number was more of an over all average vehicle usage number ... the amount of energy you use at ~50MPH at a steady state cruising flat is actually much less than you use during acceleration ... or when going up any kind of significant hill.

When you are trying to determine vehicle distance and over all vehicle Wh/Mile estimates it is generally a good idea to include a buffer for the higher energy times like hills and acceleration... and don't forget to include a inclement weather buffer ... cold will reduce your range.



Kelmark said:


> But I am not great with numbers so I could be mistaken but I think that it can be done. I just would like some constructive input on how to do it effectively.


If the bling factor of the solar still has significant impact to you... doing a nice clean install covering as much surface area as you can will be more solar bling than the actual % efficiency ... or Watts / Wh of energy it produces.

So along those lines ... I would first target at getting the most clean installed surface area you can... if budget allows then maybe consider increasing efficiency etc...

Flexible solar panels will be easier to install cleanly... to reduce their effect on the vehicles aerodynamics I recommend a thin clear coat over top to protect them a bit and to smooth some of the edges of the install.

If there is a major university near you... you might luck out if they compete in one of the solar car races... if they do, that would be an excellent source of skill , knowledge , equipment , etc... but you would have to check with the major universities near you to see if they do.

The hood is by far the first major targeted location. fewer curves than many other parts. Decent surface area. easy to access both sides. etc...


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## DONEAL (Sep 10, 2008)

Evilsizer
I viewed the you tube, and I have thought of this as well. However fearing ridicule from other posters I haven’t said anything. 
I have already incorporated it in my s-10. My thoughts were even if it didn’t work I would have reduced air drag. 
I really didn’t know how well the “squirrel cage” fan would work and this video has offered encouragement. 
I saved the alternator, and just experimenting wont cost much. At least I will know if it will work. I wont expect it to create much power, if it would equal the same amount as regen braking then it would be worth pursuing.
I’m NOT suggesting perpetual energy but just to get back what would be wasted on drag anyway. Take a look at my build thread of the airplenum on page 3. let me know what you think.
http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showthread.php/1992-s-10-chevrolet-build-38834p3.html
If you find anyone else that has tried this let me know. Sorry for a long post


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## Evilsizer (Jan 25, 2010)

Sutitan said:


> I forget exactly what I read, but it was either in Evo or Car magazine, saying that the new m5 will have some sort of micro turbines behind the grill that actually open up during deceleration to capture some energy.
> 
> or what about something like the Bugatti's air brake? but replacing it with turbines instead of a dam.
> 
> ...


hmm well using the wind turbine as a air break i dont think would work well. you would need in-efficient blade design for that to work. as in needing more wind speed to spin to generate power. my idea was to use this even at low speeds. this could also be a complimentary system to the battery system. In that you could use it real-time with batteries to use X current from the turbine thus saving power being used from the batteries. really the system im thinking of could be used in two different ways, would be ideal.

why do you say it wouldnt generate a substantial amount of power? just say you had the motor running at its most efficient, ie RPM/Voltage. lets say that its 80% efficient at that crusing speed, could be 55mph or 65mph. with the right gearing could even be at a lower speed as well. now with the right setup, the wind turbine might be more power efficient then solar. i really dont know any real numbers at efficiency of capturing energy from wind. Lets just say 50% is possible right now with current designs. even at some what low 50% efficiency it is much higher then the best solar. i guess the only different is that solar would be able to charge the batteries better over a longer period of time. though while in transit the wind would be able to generate more power for range extending. of course there is always a lose of power conversion, we just need to find that one that gives use the highest % efficiency.

i wish i new how to design cars, cause it really would be worth looking into IMO.



DONEAL said:


> Evilsizer
> I viewed the you tube, and I have thought of this as well. However fearing ridicule from other posters I haven’t said anything.
> I have already incorporated it in my s-10. My thoughts were even if it didn’t work I would have reduced air drag.
> I really didn’t know how well the “squirrel cage” fan would work and this video has offered encouragement.
> ...


If i could do it and even if i was ridiculed for posting such a thing. i would ask how can you ridicule someone if you havent tried it to disprove it not being a good idea in the first place. seems that those that ridicule cant think out side the box. somethings thinking out side the box is got US where we are today in the world with the inventions we have. like this one invention i never knew about. 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e7nFga2BpGU&NR=1
after watching the video i had some ideas about home powering with it. air is around our house all the time, with the right system nearly free energy.

im really sorry for the rant, just thoughts i needed to get out. i should move some of this to a new thread.


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## Kelmark (Oct 26, 2009)

I enjoy the ideas you guys have but I think the wind generator stuff should be on a new thread in like EV Performance were it can be discussed in detail without filling up my build thread. Great ideas though.


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## DONEAL (Sep 10, 2008)

Kelmark said:


> I enjoy the ideas you guys have but I think the wind generator stuff should be on a new thread in like EV Performance were it can be discussed in detail without filling up my build thread. Great ideas though.


Kelmark
I apologize, I posted in the middle, and didn’t read the whole thread, You have some good points about the solar, and I agree the two ideas would be better in two separate threads.


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## Kelmark (Oct 26, 2009)

Just got some real world data from Tom’s E-Swift project, he said 187WH per mile is what he is seeing at 35 MPH. This would equal 561WH total which would mean I would need a 280 watt solar cell. To meet my original goal, which is more cells than I can fit on my car unless I go with the really expensive stuff.
So I will likely be reduced to 2 miles per day or instead of charging the main pack I can use it on the aux battery saving power from the dc to dc converter. Still in the planning phase on this, lots of time to figure it out though.


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## Kelmark (Oct 26, 2009)

IamIan said:


> Flexible solar panels will be easier to install cleanly... to reduce their effect on the vehicles aerodynamics I recommend a thin clear coat over top to protect them a bit and to smooth some of the edges of the install.


I think you are right flexible will be the way to go. I wasn't aware you could clearcoat over them, good information. Would you have a suggestion on a bonding agent that would work best with the cells and the fiberglass body? It wouldn't be very impressive if the started peeling off.


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

Hi Kelmark

Why would tow gear add 50lbs?

When I had a road/track mini I had a square section tube welded to the frame, when I was towing I inserted a square section bar with a tow ball and held it with a pin

When not towing all that was visible was a square hole above the exhaust

Additional weight 3 lbs maybe 4

The electrical connection could be through a hatch - same one as usually used for charging?
This could do the trailer lights as well as the serious stuff!

A trailer tucked in close does not add a lot to your drag


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## Kelmark (Oct 26, 2009)

Duncan said:


> Hi Kelmark
> 
> Why would tow gear add 50lbs?
> 
> ...


 

It may be less than 50lbs so I am still considering this option. But on a vw chassis the frame or horns stop at the transmission I would either have to weld in pipe to extend that back past the motor to the back of the car which is to bars around 20" long then a cross bar. 

With it extended out that far I would also need two diagonal braces 23" long and something to weld them to which run across the rear shock towers.

Another alternative is the prefab one that I will probably purchase; it is supposed to bolt to the bumper of a beetle. Because this is a kit car I would still need to do diagonal bracing to a bar mounted on the top of the rear shock towers to ensure that it is safe to pull a trailer.
http://www.hitchsource.com/volkswagen-beetle-or-superbeetle-trailer-hitch-68-79-class-p-27609.html
If do use a trailer I will increase the generator size from 2kw to 7kw and use a trailer similar to this one; http://www.bills-trailers.com/trailers/bushtec/roadstar.cfm
As for the drawbacks, you wont see allot of wind drag but the extra weight of the hitch and trailor is added to the generator for extra load on the car. Then you have two more tires and wheel bearings which add to the rolling resistance. 
On the other hand 7kw would be much better at extending the range, 60 amps after power conversion losses could sustain speeds of 40mph as long as you have fuel and double the range of the pack at 65mph!


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## Evilsizer (Jan 25, 2010)

why not come up with a wheel hub powered trailer. that way your not losing speed if you need faster then 45mph. if you do the generator it could directly power the wheels or you could use a small pack to power them or some mix of the two.


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## Kelmark (Oct 26, 2009)

Evilsizer said:


> why not come up with a wheel hub powered trailer. that way your not losing speed if you need faster then 45mph. if you do the generator it could directly power the wheels or you could use a small pack to power them or some mix of the two.


I am not sure what a wheelhub powered trailer is? Are you talking about a pusher trailer? 

_"On the other hand 7kw would be much better at extending the range, 60 amps after power conversion losses could sustain speeds of 40mph as long as you have fuel and double the range of the pack at 65mph!"_

I wouldn't be losing speed with the generator trailer, I was just commenting that at around 40 mph the generator could maintain that speed without the assistance of the battery pack. When I go faster it will use the 60amps from the generator and the rest from the batteries so speed will not be limited.


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## Evilsizer (Jan 25, 2010)

Kelmark said:


> I am not sure what a wheelhub powered trailer is? Are you talking about a pusher trailer?


im not sure what a pusher trailer is. im just suggesting using wheel hub motors on the trailer. that way the motor in the car doesnt carry all the load.


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## Kelmark (Oct 26, 2009)

Evilsizer said:


> im not sure what a pusher trailer is. im just suggesting using wheel hub motors on the trailer. that way the motor in the car doesnt carry all the load.


Are suggesting using electric hub motors on the trailer powered by something to push the car and reduce the load on the Main motor in the car?? Need more details or a better description to understand how this would be effective. 

On another note: My project has slowed this week while waiting for some parts and the cold weather has reduced how long I stay in the garage. So instead I am working some overtime to free up some money for the next shopping spree.


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## Evilsizer (Jan 25, 2010)

Kelmark said:


> Are suggesting using electric hub motors on the trailer powered by something to push the car and reduce the load on the Main motor in the car??


yes i was.. well im assuming you can find wheel hub motors that would be able to operate at the same RPM/SPEED as you need to be usefull. might just be my hair brained off the wall thinking.


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## Bowser330 (Jun 15, 2008)

Im with you Kelmark, I am not a fan of the trailer concept...I would much rather go with a removable spot inside the car where you could "install on demand".. I am planning the same sort of setup...

7.5kw should be enough to power a lighter weight good aero car continuously at 50mph...You can find gensets for 900$ that are about 230lbs for 10kw peak 7.5kw cont.


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## Kelmark (Oct 26, 2009)

Bowser330 said:


> Im with you Kelmark, I am not a fan of the trailer concept...I would much rather go with a removable spot inside the car where you could "install on demand".. I am planning the same sort of setup...
> 
> 7.5kw should be enough to power a lighter weight good aero car continuously at 50mph...You can find gensets for 900$ that are about 230lbs for 10kw peak 7.5kw cont.


If I have to take it in and out of the car I need to keep it under a hundred pounds so it can be lifted by just me. I found *AVERO™ FLEX-LITE (FL) 2.5 kW AC/DC Diesel Powered Generator Set* which is under 100lbs. 

Another one I am very interested in is 5KW and weighs 165lbs;
http://www.centralmainediesel.com/stats/PRINTABLE/yanmar_4kw.asp?page=yanmar_4kw

Does anyone else know of any light weight diesel generator with auto start?


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## Bowser330 (Jun 15, 2008)

very true, if say you had no help to install it or remove it, 230lbs would be too much...Maybe two lighter gensets instead...


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## roflwaffle (Sep 9, 2008)

The problem w/ most gensets is that they're relatively heavy in order to lower costs. It's better to go w/ an integrated lightweight engine/exhaust/transmission that's more efficient and only ~100lbs heavier than a underpowered generator, bu as usual those are just my 2 cents.


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## Kelmark (Oct 26, 2009)

Just wanted to post some more pics. Things have been slow, I am working allot of overtime so I only get about 2 hours a day in the garage.


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## infantry11b (Feb 6, 2010)

i'm a newbe at this and i have been following your progress. i like the idea of taking your own charger with you just to keep the battery power up. i may want to try that too. be able to take it out to go the the dmv to show all electric and if ever stopped - its a backup power system.
my problem is im used to hot rods - so i want an electric hot rod - 400+ ftlbs to the rear wheels - 1st one off the light, first one to the next, and 80 mph on the freeway. so i am really interrested in how your build turns out.
good luck - well done so far.


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## IamIan (Mar 29, 2009)

infantry11b said:


> my problem is im used to hot rods - so i want an electric hot rod - 400+ ftlbs to the rear wheels - 1st one off the light, first one to the next, and 80 mph on the freeway. so i am really interrested in how your build turns out.
> good luck - well done so far.


Just look around and read up... in my experience most hot rod lovers make excellent EVs ... Hot Rod lovers know the value of low RPM torque ... and Electric motors have more low RPM Torque than any equal sized ICE ever will... plus hot rod lovers also tend to understand you can't get something for nothing ... just like supping up and ICE into a hot rod costs money so will an EV Hot Rod.

If you haven't seen it yet and you are looking into a EV Hot Rod... I'd recommend looking at the White Zombie... Which launches with 772 Ft/Lbs of torque... he has gone from zero to over 114 MPH in under 12 seconds... and zero to 60 MPH in under 3 seconds... and it is a street legal car for daily commuting too.


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## infantry11b (Feb 6, 2010)

thank you for the link - i believe i did see that one, but before i understood anything about it.
i think its about time for a change - so this could be it. i do have to learn a new vocabulary but low end torque is that im looking for - not big on 150+ mph on the top end.
i am going to strip out one of my camaro's - no engine or trans and other stuff and im down to 2k lbs. bolting the motor up directly to the rear end and gearing for right rpm for the motor and i could have some real fun on the street. 
ok all the controllers and batteries will have to be in the front - but putting the engine over the rear end will make it run like my lotus europa.
what the hell - i wont be wasting gas - i can charge it during the day on solar.


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## Kelmark (Oct 26, 2009)

Sorry I have not posted anything for a while, been real busy with work, college, family...

I thought I would post some updated pics of the chassis.


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## procupine14 (Mar 17, 2010)

That is one nice looking rolling chassis!


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## Kelmark (Oct 26, 2009)

procupine14 said:


> That is one nice looking rolling chassis!


It will take another month for me to finish running brake lines and do the fine tuning / alignment of the suspension and then fabricate the racks for the batteries.

After that I will be ready to set the body back on the chassis and take it to be weighed. Then I will have a better idea of what the car will weight when it is done.


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## electromet (Oct 20, 2009)

Kelmark,

I agree; that's a very clean looking chassis. Any idea how much the aluminum front beam weighs in comparison with the stock unit?


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## maxvtol (Nov 11, 2009)

Very nice looking rolling chasis!



Kelmark said:


> It will take another month for me to finish running brake lines and do the fine tuning / alignment of the suspension and then fabricate the racks for the batteries.


I believe most would align the suspension after full weight since it will change with ride height.


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## Kelmark (Oct 26, 2009)

electromet said:


> Kelmark,
> 
> I agree; that's a very clean looking chassis. Any idea how much the aluminum front beam weighs in comparison with the stock unit?


The new front beam shaved off about 36 pounds compared to the steel ball joint I took off.


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## Kelmark (Oct 26, 2009)

maxvtol said:


> Very nice looking rolling chasis!
> 
> 
> I believe most would align the suspension after full weight since it will change with ride height.


Sorry I should have said rough tune, I will be making adjustments as I go, but I wanted to get it close while the body was out of the way.


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## Evilsizer (Jan 25, 2010)

looking good!


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## few2many (Jun 23, 2009)

Hey kelmark, just found youre thread, looks great, eager to see how the drive train comes out.


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## Kelmark (Oct 26, 2009)

Hello everyone,

Just wanted to give an update;

I got the body back on the chassis but found that there was a substantial space above the rear tires due to using smaller diameter tires and a 3" body lift kit seen in post#53. Adjusting the spring plates won't be enough so I will have to do some custom fabrication to lower the rear suspension.

The wife says I have to pay off a couple bills before I continue on my project so that has been my focus but hope to be able to start diverting some money back to my project soon.

Also been rethinking the AC motor... I am now considering 11" Kostov with Netgains Warp Drive controller. The efficiencies should be close but potential power is much greater and price is about the same. Any thoughts?


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## maxvtol (Nov 11, 2009)

Kelmark said:


> I am now considering 11" Kostov with Netgains Warp Drive controller. The efficiencies should be close but potential power is much greater and price is about the same. Any thoughts?


Not from experience, but from calculations... make sure your power is in the rpm range you want it for the voltages you're going to use. I put the 11" WarP motor in my spreadsheet and it really didn't give any better performance, actually worse than what I wanted. Torque was too much on the low end (tires would spin more than a Warp 9) and there wasn't enough power on the higher rpm range to give the top speed I wanted. 

If you put enough voltage to the motor, I'm sure you could get the performance you want, but that's more $$$. 

P.S. on my spreadsheet if you use it, your car is so light, I wouldn't expect to much more acceleration in G's (~ 32 ft/sec^2) than the what the weight ratio is on the rear wheels, ie if you have .5 on the rear, a little over .5 G's or 16 ft/sec would be about max acceleration with standard tires of the appropriate width. Over that and the tires would probably spin.

Oh, and don't forget to tell your wife how much money you're saving when you buy parts, just like she does when she buys her shoes.


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## Kelmark (Oct 26, 2009)

maxvtol said:


> Not from experience, but from calculations... make sure your power is in the rpm range you want it for the voltages you're going to use. I put the 11" WarP motor in my spreadsheet and it really didn't give any better performance, actually worse than what I wanted. Torque was too much on the low end (tires would spin more than a Warp 9) and there wasn't enough power on the higher rpm range to give the top speed I wanted.


 

The reason I started looking at the 11" was because Netgain came out with the HV version. But netgains motor has too much torque and is too heavy so I was reading the history of white zombie and they used the 11" Kostov which has interpoles, less torque, and is lighter.




maxvtol said:


> If you put enough voltage to the motor, I'm sure you could get the performance you want, but that's more $$$.


I would use the highest pack voltage (450?) and would limit motor voltage max rpm 5000. Top speed on this car is going to be limited to 70mph, I am not sure I would feel safe driving the kit car much faster and there isn't really a need, 90% of my driving will be in town. 




maxvtol said:


> P.S. on my spreadsheet if you use it, your car is so light, I wouldn't expect to much more acceleration in G's (~ 32 ft/sec^2) than the what the weight ratio is on the rear wheels, ie if you have .5 on the rear, a little over .5 G's or 16 ft/sec would be about max acceleration with standard tires of the appropriate width. Over that and the tires would probably spin.


Thanks I will have to play around with that calculator. The main purpose of going with the 11” kostov was to have “interpoles” which will give me a greater torque band. Also wanted to use a large enough motor that the draw on amps would be less and be more efficient overall. 




maxvtol said:


> Oh, and don't forget to tell your wife how much money you're saving when you buy parts, just like she does when she buys her shoes.


LOL


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## maxvtol (Nov 11, 2009)

I'm just starting my project, but my thoughts on higher voltage, higher voltage = more batteries = more connections = more potential problems. 

I could get a longer torque (but lower) band using an Impluse 9" and higher voltage on my project and shift through the gears to get the performance I want, or use a WarP 9" and lower voltage and just start off in 3rd, it calculates about the same as far as acceleration performance on 0-60mph. If you only need to go 70mph, I don't know if you would really need to go real high voltage. I don't know the efficiency difference between 144v vs 300v+ but I think it would be small. 

Again, just my thoughts, but if you had a real high power motor and single speed and neeeded to go 10K + rpm, high voltage would make sense, but for 5k rpm and if you plan to keep and use your transmission, someone would really have to explain the benefits to me.

On a different subject, what seats are you using and where did you get them? How much do they weigh?


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## Kelmark (Oct 26, 2009)

maxvtol said:


> I'm just starting my project, but my thoughts on higher voltage, higher voltage = more batteries = more connections = more potential problems.
> 
> On a different subject, what seats are you using and where did you get them? How much do they weigh?


The seats are from JcWhitney, GaragePro I think. I got them for $200 on sale with a discount. They are a bit heavier than I would like at 33 pounds each but I can always upgrade later.

I am planning on using prismatic cells which will have lots of connections no matter what voltage I choose anyway. But I will have the modules assembled professionally and then I will install them.


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## Kelmark (Oct 26, 2009)

I have been considering another drive for my project that I really think will work well but I thought I would bounce the idea off all of you. Here it is;

*Battery Pack*

100 Calb 40Ah
320V nominal 360V Charged
Weight- 331 lbs

*Drive system*

55kW BLDC Motor / Controller. Weight-66.14 lbs

312V nominal 55kW peak power 22kW nominal. 250Nm Maximum Torque (84Nm Nominal) Air-Cooled, with Full Brake Regeneration









The battery pack would be on the small side but I plan on upgrading on my next pack as battery technology improves and prices come down. But as this will be used for local car shows and I live 2 miles from work my actual daily driving will be less than 30 miles.

With this setup I should be able to keep the finished weight of the car under 1700 lbs with pack over and forward of the rear wheels I think this car would have impressive acceleration and handling.

So what do you guys think?


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## maxvtol (Nov 11, 2009)

Nice looking motor. Whatabout cost?

I assume since there is a torque curve with it, it's good for a traction motor. A sensorless controller / BLDC motor setup in RC is best for propellers where there is no resistance to starting the propeller. I would just make sure it's a sensored controller / BLDC motor setup or that it actually says it's a traction motor. 

55kw / 320 v = 171 amps or over 4 C for the batteries, if you plan on using maxing out the motor. Might shorten the life of those batteries a little. If you're close to the Tesla at highway speeds at ~ 20 to 25kw, thats 1.5 to almost 2 C. Seems I've seen 1 C is good practice for the batteries for extended periods. 

Complete speculation on my part, but I'm not of the opinion batteries will get any cheaper, maybe better, but not cheaper. They're already cost competive with oil (if you believe the cycle life claims), and they seem to be gaining popularity, you know that ole supply and demand thing.


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## Kelmark (Oct 26, 2009)

maxvtol said:


> Nice looking motor. Whatabout cost?
> 
> I assume since there is a torque curve with it, it's good for a traction motor. A sensorless controller / BLDC motor setup in RC is best for propellers where there is no resistance to starting the propeller. I would just make sure it's a sensored controller / BLDC motor setup or that it actually says it's a traction motor.
> 
> ...


maxvtol,

This same motor is offered through Current EV Tech as a traction motor for use in EV's just a little less expensive. You bring up a good question on the sensor though I will have to check and see if there is or not.

As for the batteries I have limited my weight to <350Lbs to maximize performance and efficiency. So for this first pack I will limit peak amps to around 145A and I do not think I will be running near 80A continues during normal driving probably closer too 45A or less for <50mph. 

The price of Calb are very good just not the weight, my hope is that I can double (80Ah) for the same weight or lighter for less money in 5-8 years than it costs to do now which is $18,000 - $30,000.

Thanks for the feedback!


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## Kernel Panic (May 25, 2012)

What seats are you using in your Kelmark GT. I am also in the process of converting a Kelmark GT into an EV. Looking forward to the completing this project. Hard to find seats for this little car.


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