# [EVDL] Heath Kit controller?



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

[No message]


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

That's exactly what I have been proposing. I call it an open source 
controller but same thing.
and of course it's a brilliant idea. at the same time including a DCDC 
supply and recharger

Dan



> Michael Mohlere wrote:
> > Maybe I'm just way off the mark here, but does anyone (ok, you all do,
> > I'm sure) remember the "Heath" kits? My brother and I built many of
> > them when we were kids.
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Heathkit may no longer make and sell kits, this is true, but the reason 
was not due to lack of interest or demand nor was it due to the cost of 
producing kits. In a nutshell, Zenith, who purchased Heathkit during 
the early PC days, wanted a PC product. Their emphasis was not on 
general electronics kits at all and they basically let the kit portion 
of the company go under.

Today there are a myriad of small companies making electronics kits for 
the ham radio hobby. One in particular is doing quite well - check out 
www.elecraft.com . Anyway, it is definitely a niche market but is still 
quite prolific and productive.

john



> Peter VanDerWal wrote:
> > However, you might consider that Heathkit does make kits any more, there
> > is probably a reason for that.
> >
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

I'm going to take a wild guess and guess that if the non-computer related 
kits were profitable, Zenith wouldn't have been stupid enough to just let 
them go under, they would have sold it.

I built a lot of Heathkit audio test gear, and I never had a problem. My 
Uncle (who generally knew nothing about electronics), built a high end 
Heathkit TV, it costed more than a nice store bought TV. It didn't work. 
He had to get it fixed. He mumbled something about a two legged transistor 
.

I'm guessing selling kits to Hams doesn't generate near the support costs of 
selling TV kits to people like my Uncle. Hams know enough not to install a 
two legged transistor. It would be easy to believe that Heathkit sold out 
because the support costs resulting from selling kits to amateurs (not radio 
amateurs), especially when they were beginning to have to compete pricewise 
with offshore products, was killing them. Even then, a Heath TV kit costed 
more than a finished TV, and the difference in price was growing. Zenith 
probably got a bargain on the company because it wasn't very profitable, and 
dropped the stuff that no longer paid off.

What did a Heathkit oscilloscope kit cost back then, hundreds in 1975 
dollars, and what does an imported O scope cost today? Hundreds in 2007 
dollars? I think the writing was on the wall. Once a product goes to large 
scale outsourced production, it typically gets cheaper than the parts alone 
in a small quantity purchase.

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "John A. Evans - N0HJ" <[email protected]>
To: <[email protected]>; "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" 
<[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, August 22, 2007 9:16 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Heath Kit controller?


> Heathkit may no longer make and sell kits, this is true, but the reason
> was not due to lack of interest or demand nor was it due to the cost of
> producing kits. In a nutshell, Zenith, who purchased Heathkit during
> the early PC days, wanted a PC product. Their emphasis was not on
> general electronics kits at all and they basically let the kit portion
> of the company go under.
>
> Today there are a myriad of small companies making electronics kits for
> the ham radio hobby. One in particular is doing quite well - check out
> www.elecraft.com . Anyway, it is definitely a niche market but is still
> quite prolific and productive.
>
> john
>


> > Peter VanDerWal wrote:
> >> However, you might consider that Heathkit does make kits any more, there
> >> is probably a reason for that.
> >>
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

[No message]


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

The cost of the controller is all in the testing and research, not in 
the assembly. While it seems the Zilla IS expensive to assemble from 
the comments (never seen one), recovering the cost of all the 
development is most important.

The controller I've built using IGBT modules is not hard to assemble at 
all, and perhaps once its all debugged I could sell the circuit board 
and others could get the modules and caps etc to build one, but I'll bet 
by that time the cheap ebay IGBT modules won't be available anymore, and 
new ones are very expensive.

My view is that a low-cost way of getting a controller is to build a 
hybrid contact controller with the low-cost low-voltage controllers,
use them for smooth take-off, then switch them out with contactors.
There are a lot of ways to build things to save money, there just is NO 
INCENTIVE AT ALL for someone to build test and debug such systems.

Jack



> Morgan LaMoore wrote:
> > Yeah, but do you think we're going to see EV controllers that EV
> > enthusiasts can build becoming off-shore mass-produced any time soon?
> > I think EV kits are more like HAM radio than build-your-own TV. Most
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

if power electronics actually were expensive we could look to a 
contactor controller but I reiterate that Ian Hooper summed up the power 
electronics cost in a curtis to roughly 80$ total. while some modules 
are quite expensive it seems that doing it with many small IGBTs in 
parallel is quite cheap. certainly far better than a mechanical 
solution. so if you indeed have a working design, show it so others can 
build it too, be it with large surplus modules or brand new small 
transistors

Dan



> Jack Murray wrote:
> > The cost of the controller is all in the testing and research, not in
> > the assembly. While it seems the Zilla IS expensive to assemble from
> > the comments (never seen one), recovering the cost of all the
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Dan, what have you contributed besides constant verbal garbage? Jack



> Dan Frederiksen wrote:
> > if power electronics actually were expensive we could look to a
> > contactor controller but I reiterate that Ian Hooper summed up the power
> > electronics cost in a curtis to roughly 80$ total. while some modules
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Don't kill the messenger Jack. I'm only telling you the truth



> Jack Murray wrote:
> > Dan, what have you contributed besides constant verbal garbage? Jack
> >
> > Dan Frederiksen wrote:
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

[No message]


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

[No message]


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

I didn't see any truthful answer to the question asked.



> Dan Frederiksen wrote:
> > Don't kill the messenger Jack. I'm only telling you the truth
> >
> > Jack Murray wrote:
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

>> are quite expensive it seems that doing it with many small IGBTs in 

IGBT's and MOSFET's don't parallel as easily as you are led to believe.
After getting one controller running, make sure you can build 20 or 30
of them and have the good reliability. I've been bit in production on
this point. Big VFD manufacturers would not use the big IGBT switching
modules if it were really cheaper to use a lot of small parts. Make
sure you have desat detection at the driver level (HCPL-316 opto is one
example) if you're not using an intelligent power module. If you ensure
you have proper protection here, you are less likely to blow it up if
you screw up the control aspect. It's certainly possible, however... The
power stage needs to be designed properly. If you have not, make sure
you read all of the IGBT and driver application notes from Avago (drivers),
IR (drivers, IGBT's, MOSFETs), Fairchild (IGBT's), and Powerex. They
cover a lot of how it's done, and how it's often done wrong. The Valentine
book is also very instructive.

The parasitics are no problem for that big cap array if it's done right.
Most of my experience has been with 3-phase drives. Bill is absolutely
correct. In any of the VFD's I've met (repaired, built, rebuilt), there
are small film capacitors directly across the half-bridge (or in a series
controller, between the MOSFET source and the diode cathode), right at
each MOSFET or IGBT. Those take care of the sub-microsecond overshoots.
Not there = bang. In the bigger 3-phase drives I've worked with (25-50kW)
the big capacitor bank is connected in several groups to each lead screw
on each IGBT - distributed across the power and ground bus. They may be
wired together with #18 wire, but when you have 12 or 15 groups of 2 to 5
capacitors on each group, the resistance becomes insignificant, and
the HF bypass capacitor (sometimes called a snubbing capacitor, but that's
not exactly correct terminology) swamps the inductance going to the
electrolytic bank. The HF bypass capacitors are made by Cornell-Dublier,
and they have pretty impressive ratings.

When I rebuild Solectria BRLS controllers, I just shove in as many low-ESR,
low-ESL, switching power supply capacitors as I can get into that box. I
think it isn't quite enough, but it's a heck of a lot better than I took
out. All of the BRLS controllers I've met have electrolytic capacitor
degradation. One even shrunk off all of the plastic wrapping.

At one point, someone asked for me to share a design of something that
I have done. My employer (and past employers) all say I can't do that.
A design I come up with for fun, sure. But not when I get paid to
design something for someone else.

-Dale

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Stupidity: Doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different
result DAN.



-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf
Of Jack Murray
Sent: Wednesday, August 22, 2007 3:00 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Heath Kit controller?

I didn't see any truthful answer to the question asked.



> Dan Frederiksen wrote:
> > Don't kill the messenger Jack. I'm only telling you the truth
> >
> > Jack Murray wrote:
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

of all these concerns, how many do the curtis controllers abide by?



> Dale Ulan wrote:
> >>> are quite expensive it seems that doing it with many small IGBTs in
> >>>
> >
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

what repetition are you refering to?



> David S wrote:
> > Stupidity: Doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different
> > result DAN.
> >
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Dan Frederiksen" <[email protected]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, August 22, 2007 3:40 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Heath Kit controller?


> Don't kill the messenger Jack. I'm only telling you the truth
> Hi EVerybody;

It isn't easy! Getting hardware to build a car or truk isn't easy! At 
Nretgain they are growing motors as fast as they can, like selling more THIS 
year than since they began.People are coming out of theWOODWORK, they have 
scene THE movie, well, Al Gore's too. And they are DOING something about it; 
build yur own! Nice, maybe I'm doing SOMETHING right. Driving my talk, about 
to go to Ray's Seafood's Cruise night, being parked with the 'vettes and 
custom stuff. Sheeple see a working EV, doing show an' Tell.

OK Point I'm getting to; the finate availableity of controllers. EVen 
Alltrax is sold out for their BIG one;72 volt, 450 amp. Sigh!EVerybody with 
ANY thing that you could use as a controller.gone or ya go on a waiting 
list. So, chill out, or build your own. As my Jetta is stone age compared to 
an EV-1 or Tesla.Looking again at my old Rabbit controller, the big click 
box contactor. Hell, when it goes on the fritz I can fix it! Open a Rapture 
orZilla and what are ya gunna fix? If I can't fix it with a big hammer, I'm 
in trouble. My crude lumpy contactor only let me down in traffic once and I 
pushed it out of the way, and tightened the lead on the micro switch box, 
and went on my way, dignity intact. If the Rapture shits out, I call AAA.So, 
go ahead, do a rock simple contacter job and quit yur bitchen' !Put in your 
order and line forms there., when ya get your Zilla, or Rapture you will 
love it all the more!!

Probably back to contactors?

Bob 

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

KISS Keep It Simple Stupid - If one were to make a contractor type 
controller, how do you protect the motor from the more than 1000 amps when the 
contractors are giving full battery pack voltage to the motor?


Thank you,

Dave Delman
1981 Electric DeLorean Project



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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

----- Original Message ----- 
From: <[email protected]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, August 22, 2007 10:21 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Heath Kit controller?


>
> KISS Keep It Simple Stupid - If one were to make a contractor type
> controller, how do you protect the motor from the more than 1000 amps 
> when the
> contractors are giving full battery pack voltage to the motor?
>
>
> Thank you,
>
> Dave Delman
> 1981 Electric DeLorean Project
>
> Hi Dave;

Your right foot! IF you must you will squeel out, most violently!!Or blow 
a fuze if you are running one. Do you take off in yur gasser all at once, 
too?But it was sure nice to have ALL that power for passing. I used to speed 
shift my Rabbit, keeping the power pedal floored. Don't try this one at 
home, or unless you have a shed full of trannies or motors as IF ya miss the 
shift you WILL overspeed and fireball the motor!

Bob
>
> ************************************** Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL 
> at
> http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>
>
> -- 
> Internal Virus Database is out-of-date.
> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> Version: 7.5.476 / Virus Database: 269.11.15/949 - Release Date: 8/12/2007 
> 11:03 AM
>
> 

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Michael Mohlere wrote:
> > Why not a "Heath kit" basic controller? All we need is a good,
> > basic design, a parts list, and some instructions...
> 
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Peter VanDerWal wrote:
> > Because there is very little demand for controller kits that cost as
> > much, or more, as prebuilt controllers, especialy since the kits
> > would have no warranty.
> ...


----------

