# planning 1977 beetle conversion



## dragonsgate (May 19, 2012)

Hi Tony, Nice looking bug and a cute kid. $4K is a bit skinny for 50 mile range and parts. If you want to teach Maria how to really get her hands dirty you can find a Forklift motor and refurbish it to possibly save a little money. Personally I like shiny new stuff off the shelf. A little more expensive but less work. The only way to get 50 mile range is going to be lithium and that could eat up your budget and then some depending on what voltage you go. I would think for 65mph and hills you will want at least 120V and 500amps.


----------



## onegreenev (May 18, 2012)

Welcome, You will have lots of help with your VW. Lots of VW nuts around these parts. It is quite possible to do a decent conversion but like the previous person stated, 4K will be a tough call and for 50 miles reliably it will unfortunately cost you more. Heck, you can spend that for batteries alone. I would however go with lithium right out of the gate so make plans for that. As for the motor and controller you can do quite well with good used parts that are available. 

Pete


----------



## Ziggythewiz (May 16, 2010)

Welcome! I started with a fairly low-budget lead acid build and had great performance with a solid 20 mile range for ~$6000. That was with a $800 battery pack. 

I now have a 50 mile range but if bought fresh my current pack would cost ~$3500


----------



## tony.moore (Dec 28, 2013)

thanks all!

i've been digging into the forums to learn, and keeping an eye open for a learning resource for my daughter. i read a bit about the ebook by kiwiev and plan to watch his youtube videos. can anyone familiar with his ebook comment if it's something a curious teen could follow?

and thanks for the reality check with our budget and plan . it indeed sounds like we should save more and go with lithiums. i don't yet know if this is possible, but could we plan for expansion with a smaller lithium kit and expand as we can to gain range?

our hope is to plan over the winter, but gear in early spring and spend the later spring and summer on the conversion.

again, thanks!

tony


----------



## tony.moore (Dec 28, 2013)

ps - sorry for the typos, there doesn't seem to be an edit feature on the ios app...


----------



## dragonsgate (May 19, 2012)

tony.moore said:


> thanks all!
> 
> i've been digging into the forums to learn, and keeping an eye open for a learning resource for my daughter. i read a bit about the ebook by kiwiev and plan to watch his youtube videos. can anyone familiar with his ebook comment if it's something a curious teen could follow?
> 
> ...


 There is a book that came out in 1994 called Build Your Own Electric Vehicle by Bob Brant. There are more up to date books now but this one still has pertinent information and in my opinion still a good primer for a novice. Your local library might have the book.


----------



## tony.moore (Dec 28, 2013)

thanks dragonsgate! it turns out there is a 3rd edition that was published this year:

Build Your Own Electric Vehicle, Third Edition
http://amzn.com/0071770569


----------



## dtbaker (Jan 5, 2008)

onegreenev said:


> Welcome, You will have lots of help with your VW. Lots of VW nuts around these parts. It is quite possible to do a decent conversion but like the previous person stated, 4K will be a tough call and for 50 miles reliably it will unfortunately cost you more. Heck, you can spend that for batteries alone. I would however go with lithium right out of the gate so make plans for that. As for the motor and controller you can do quite well with good used parts that are available.
> 
> Pete



I'll second that.... go lithium right out of the gate. maybe save a little picking motor, controller up used, or scan thru the partial vehicles in the classified section for a dead lead build!

DON'T build lead..... slow, short range, kills suspension, etc.


----------



## onegreenev (May 18, 2012)

Check your private messages. I have sent you some information you may like to see. 

Pete


----------



## dtbaker (Jan 5, 2008)

onegreenev said:


> Check your private messages. I have sent you some information you may like to see.
> 
> Pete



who....? I don't see any new PM's .


----------



## tony.moore (Dec 28, 2013)

dtbaker said:


> who....? I don't see any new PM's .


ha! got 'em!

thanks so much to all of you. this site and you folk remind of the some of the early volkswagen bus forums and listservs in the 90's i use to frequent (before life took over my free time ;-). so much knowledge from friendly and helpful folk.

tony


----------



## fanimasuo (Dec 30, 2013)

The bug is one of my favorite vehicles since I was a kid. At least ever since I saw Herbie. Of course dont make it look like Herbie, that will be too obvious. Good luck.


----------



## Ziggythewiz (May 16, 2010)

tony.moore said:


> it indeed sounds like we should save more and go with lithiums. i don't yet know if this is possible, but could we plan for expansion with a smaller lithium kit and expand as we can to gain range?


Absolutely! I have a hybrid lithium-lead acid pack, but the car can run fine off just the 40AH CALBs. I plan to add another 40 or 60 AH pack to those in the next year or 2 to ditch the lead and keep the range I need.


----------



## dtbaker (Jan 5, 2008)

Ziggythewiz said:


> Absolutely! I have a hybrid lithium-lead acid pack, but the car can run fine off just the 40AH CALBs. I plan to add another 40 or 60 AH pack to those in the next year or 2 to ditch the lead and keep the range I need.



NOT a great idea to add cells of different age, you will have a heck of a time keeping things balanced.


----------



## Ziggythewiz (May 16, 2010)

If they're in parallel strings there's no possible issue.


----------



## dtbaker (Jan 5, 2008)

Ziggythewiz said:


> If they're in parallel strings there's no possible issue.



?
but if you currently have a split pack of lead/acid at some voltage, and replace the lead 'later' with a half-pack of lithium, how can they be in parallel? you will have to have the new half-pack in series to obtain your current final pack voltage..... requiring a separate charger or a BMS capable of managing the likely differences between the different half-packs.


----------



## Ziggythewiz (May 16, 2010)

lead works by itself. lithium works by itself. Both work together in parallel. Drop in new lithium in place of lead and old lithium will barely notice, except that its buddy will appear to be on steroids.


----------



## dtbaker (Jan 5, 2008)

Ziggythewiz said:


> lead works by itself. lithium works by itself. Both work together in parallel. Drop in new lithium in place of lead and old lithium will barely notice, except that its buddy will appear to be on steroids.


this only works if you have the lead/lithium laid out in parallel from the start, right? sounds like a mess to me... with the different characteristics under load and two very different charge curves. assuming you have the space to add lithium cells in parallel with an entire lead pack.... why not just save up and do it full-lithium from the start; not re-doing battery racking and chargers?

you can do a hybrid pack, and it may even work for a while, but I certainly would recommend going with an entire pack at same age and the cell size you want 'to end up with' to minimize connections and balancing issues as well as simplify charging and maximize the life of the cells as well as avoiding the time and expense of re-working your racking.


----------



## Ziggythewiz (May 16, 2010)

dtbaker said:


> this only works if you have the lead/lithium laid out in parallel from the start, right? sounds like a mess to me... with the different characteristics under load and two very different charge curves. assuming you have the space to add lithium cells in parallel with an entire lead pack.... why not just save up and do it full-lithium from the start; not re-doing battery racking and chargers?
> 
> you can do a hybrid pack, and it may even work for a while, but I certainly would recommend going with an entire pack at same age and the cell size you want 'to end up with' to minimize connections and balancing issues as well as simplify charging and maximize the life of the cells as well as avoiding the time and expense of re-working your racking.


I'd rather experiment and try new things rather than saving up for years for the COTS solution others would choose. Started my experiment almost 2 years ago, fully operational 15 months. 0 issues.


----------



## tony.moore (Dec 28, 2013)

happy new year!

an update on my daughter and my conversion...

we got a great deal on a partially converted '75 beetle that used a circa 2010 rebirth 96v kit. while i'm sure there are better and more current options, this is a great option for us that puts us within our budget and also limits our options (a good thing!). here are pics of the beetle where it had been stored. it's too snowy now to get current pics:

























































our '77 beetle is in much better shape. our plan is to spend the winter learning and removing the kit from the '75, and then converting the '77 when the weather warms in spring.

i'll post a list of the kit and have some q's for all of you concerning any possible improvements.

thanks for everyone's online and offline input! very much appreciate and am thankful for it all.

more soon,

tony


----------



## dragonsgate (May 19, 2012)

tony.moore said:


> happy new year!
> 
> an update on my daughter and my conversion...
> 
> ...


 Way to get them back on track Tony. That is a great idea of taking the old conversion apart to learn. Kind of reverse engineering.


----------



## tony.moore (Dec 28, 2013)

happy new year!

sorry for the silence. we decided to enjoy and drive the beetle for the year and opted for for a winter conversion. and enjoy it we did. it also gave us a chance to address some minor mechanical issues.

thanks to the fine folks at metalkraft coachwerkes helping us with the heavier mechanicals, we were able to remove the gas engine, tank and such stuff and prepare for installing the electric motor:

































pulling the electric motor from the ev donor beetle:

















we ran into a snag with the flywheel and transmission, which is being addressed next week:









so, we hope to install the electric engine in the next 2 weeks and then it's in to electrical stuff!

and for my fellow air cooled auto geeks, here's just a bit of eye candy from metalkraft coachwerkes. yeah, that's a hebmuller behind the speedster!









i'll have some electrical q's in a bit...

tony and maria


----------

