# High performance AC motor and controller



## efan (Aug 27, 2009)

hey...the motor and the controller in the background look beautiful...I also remember that you were looking for an affordable AC system as well...so would you say you have found it??


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Sweet looking setup. So, the big question of course is, and I'm afraid to ask, what's the price range?


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## CroDriver (Jan 8, 2009)

Yap, I definitely found the motor I was searching for.

I still have to calculate a price but it won't be too bad. Much cheaper that the UQM system.


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## Coulomb (Apr 22, 2009)

CroDriver said:


> Liquid cooled, permanent magnet, 8 pole AC motor. Up to 18.000 RPM, efficiency always over 95% ...


So that's presumably an ironless motor?


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## zwmaster (Nov 23, 2009)

Coulomb said:


> So that's presumably an ironless motor?


It's a BLPM motor (magnets on rotor).


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## Coulomb (Apr 22, 2009)

zwmaster said:


> It's a BLPM motor (magnets on rotor).


Yes, OK, iron in the magnets... but is there iron inside the coils in the stator? It would have to be pretty fine laminations to handle 18,000 RPM and 8 pole (4 pole pairs)... that's 1200 Hz, if I calculate correctly.


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## zwmaster (Nov 23, 2009)

Coulomb said:


> Yes, OK, iron in the magnets... but is there iron inside the coils in the stator? It would have to be pretty fine laminations to handle 18,000 RPM and 8 pole (4 pole pairs)... that's 1200 Hz, if I calculate correctly.


Yes, they use fine laminations, could be same like for high RPM motor's they build for industrial and aerospace market.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

CroDriver said:


> I still have to calculate a price but it won't be too bad. Much cheaper that the UQM system.


That's not saying much


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## CroDriver (Jan 8, 2009)

JRP3 said:


> That's not saying much


This is just a preliminary introduction of the system to see if there is a demand. A mass market or competition with NetGain or Kostov is not our target. 

Try to get a price for the AC Propulsion system and let us know what they say


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## 280z1975 (Oct 2, 2008)

CroDriver said:


> This is just a preliminary introduction of the system to see if there is a demand. A mass market or competition with NetGain or Kostov is not our target.
> 
> Try to get a price for the AC Propulsion system and let us know what they say


When you get a price for the systems let me know (PM or e-mail) ... I will be interested in few months (6-8 months) and with it being in Germany, the shipping will be cheap enough (plus no import duty).


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## Bowser330 (Jun 15, 2008)

Awesome.

PLEASE provide pricing information for the range of motors from 80-200kw (peak).

Are you going to use two 200kw peak motors one for each axle to make a 400kw peak AWD monster?


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## CroDriver (Jan 8, 2009)

Bowser330 said:


> Awesome.
> 
> PLEASE provide pricing information for the range of motors from 80-200kw (peak).
> 
> Are you going to use two 200kw peak motors one for each axle to make a 400kw peak AWD monster?


It will be AWD but not two motors. Bowser, you should already know me good enough to know that I'll use four of these 

I will release some prices in a few weeks.


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## dimitri (May 16, 2008)

CroDriver said:


> It will be AWD but not two motors. Bowser, you should already know me good enough to know that I'll use four of these
> 
> I will release some prices in a few weeks.


 
You should use Lead Acid battery so you get enough downforce to keep your wheels attached to the road...


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## Bowser330 (Jun 15, 2008)

CroDriver said:


> It will be AWD but not two motors. Bowser, you should already know me good enough to know that I'll use four of these
> 
> I will release some prices in a few weeks.


You're right, I should have!

800kw!! Dear God!

Is this AWD plan for the BMW E92 body, please say YES!


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## CroDriver (Jan 8, 2009)

dimitri said:


> You should use Lead Acid battery so you get enough downforce to keep your wheels attached to the road...


Good idea. lol



Bowser330 said:


> You're right, I should have!
> 
> 800kw!! Dear God!
> 
> Is this AWD plan for the BMW E92 body, please say YES!


Nope, this is a long term project and we'll probably build a custom chassis or adapt a supercar carbon fiber, monocoque chassis in corporation with a European supercar manufacturer but I can't tell you more about this at the moment...

The E92 chassis is not the best choice for such high torque/kW motors.


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## Bowser330 (Jun 15, 2008)

CroDriver said:


> Good idea. lol
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Crodriver you cannot tease us like that! 

Congratulations on getting "in" with the European Supercar Manufacturer.

Looking forward to more information. Cheers.


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## arddea (Jan 23, 2010)

Cro

When you say much cheaper how much do you mean? They say the PowerPhase 125 is as little as 1500 USD in lots of 10,000. But 25K a piece for single orders. Is yours around 10K USD? I wouold defenatly be interested in it if it was, and the torque curve customizable. 

Rob


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## Bowser330 (Jun 15, 2008)

Crodriver said he would be able to release prices in a few weeks...

Crodriver,

I have to say my friend, I don't think we can wait that long . 

We are anxious and hungry for new technology!


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## vmackem (Mar 19, 2010)

i have not been looking long but this seems the best motor i have seen. I am a total novice at this but have the time and the cash so am seriously gathering as much info as possible. 
the kind of power i had in mind was around the tesla roadster level. does this motor compete with it or would i need more than 1?
p.s. i will be converting a lotus exige/elise


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## Bowser330 (Jun 15, 2008)

vmackem said:


> i have not been looking long but this seems the best motor i have seen. I am a total novice at this but have the time and the cash so am seriously gathering as much info as possible.
> the kind of power i had in mind was around the tesla roadster level. does this motor compete with it or would i need more than 1?
> p.s. i will be converting a lotus exige/elise


One 200kw motor would do just fine in that light of a frame...


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## arddea (Jan 23, 2010)

*vmackem
The Elise and the Roadster P1, P2, sport share all the same metal (other than the ESS support and jack points). If yours was made between 06 - 06/09 make sure the recall was done to it all lotus Elise frames were welded wrong on the passenger side and have a habit of losing wheels.
The Tesla is rated at a peak power of 215KW (288HP) at ~8500RPM.

Make sure you upgrade the C64 or you'll be blown trans chunks, they can barely handle the smooth torque of an ICE let-alone the instant torque of a hi power motor, Tesla had to recall the first 300 so cars they made with a 2 speed variation * *of the C64 just for that issue.


*


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## Bowser330 (Jun 15, 2008)

no transmission needed for the AC motors that Crodriver mentions in this thread...just a single gear reduction (rear diff)


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## vmackem (Mar 19, 2010)

Thanks for the help. 

If I got rid of the gear box how would it be possible to get a reverse gear? 
it did cross my mind that the gearbox would need upgrading to cope with the torqe. Does anyone know of an suitable upgrade gearbox that is available for purchase? 
If i got the 200kw motor will this be comparable with the roadsters 0-60 time (broad question i know but im just after a ball park)?


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

The motor is reversed electrically.


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## RoughRider (Aug 14, 2008)

i am working every day with electric motors...

when you say the eff is ALWAYS over 95%...thats not right...

post a eff-graph...


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## CroDriver (Jan 8, 2009)

RoughRider said:


> i am working every day with electric motors...
> 
> when you say the eff is ALWAYS over 95%...thats not right...
> 
> post a eff-graph...


I'm sorry. This was just a guess.

Here is the real life testwe have made recently:










The lowest eff is when the motor is at high RPMs and low loads.

I still can't offer a price. I want to test everything before selling the system.


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## MJ Monterey (Aug 20, 2009)

CroDriver,

Now you are making me rethink the motor to use, AGAIN!

Length of the motors?

A little more info on gear reductions?

When will power/torque curves be available?

MJ


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## CroDriver (Jan 8, 2009)

MJ Monterey said:


> CroDriver,
> 
> Now you are making me rethink the motor to use, AGAIN!
> 
> ...


LOL 

We in Croatia say that the cheapest way to do something is to do it right from the beginning 



MJ Monterey said:


> Length of the motors?
> 
> A little more info on gear reductions?
> 
> ...


The length depends on the power. The 80kW motor is 200 mm long, the 200 kW motor is 300 mm long.

The reduction gear adds just about 80 mm in length and 12-15 kg weight. The reduction ratio can be adapted to the specific use. We can lover the RPM to a "ICE like" range so you can use a standard differential. We can also make a reduction for a direct connection to the wheel but that setup would require two motors.

A direct drive without gearbox - directly bolted to a differential would work perfect. The motor can run in both directions and regen at very low RPMs with high powers.

The power vs. RPM curve is nothing spectacular. 

Power is linearly climbing until 3000 RPM and stays constant until it hits the "red line" which is at 18.000 RPM.


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## CroDriver (Jan 8, 2009)

vmackem said:


> i have not been looking long but this seems the best motor i have seen. I am a total novice at this but have the time and the cash so am seriously gathering as much info as possible.
> the kind of power i had in mind was around the tesla roadster level. does this motor compete with it or would i need more than 1?
> p.s. i will be converting a lotus exige/elise


The Tesla has more power for a very limited time. Since the Tesla motor is very small and air cooled it (and batteries) overheat very quickly and the electronics limit the power to about 30%.

You could beat a Tesla if you use light batteries since Tesla Motor's battery pack weights over 900 lbs.

Two motors would be better of course. Four motors would be perfect. But I'm the wrong guy to ask since I'm a power addict


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## JRoque (Mar 9, 2010)

hmmm... at 18,000 RPM direct drive I'd be going about 2400 MPH. I may have to slow down on school crossings.

A few questions if you don't mind:

- Are you concerned about demagnetization at higher power? 
- What's the voltage low end for the controller?
- Will you be selling the motor alone so we can pick (or build) our own controller?
- Will it have a mounting base to take up the torsion forces?

That is a beautiful machine. Can't wait for your pricing post!

JR


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## Jan (Oct 5, 2009)

Cro, can't you give us at least an indication? Will it be comparable with the MES-DEA? Come on, I can't stand the waiting.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

He's going to tease us until we're all worked up into a frenzy


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## Matthijs (Jun 19, 2009)

Jan said:


> Cro, can't you give us at least an indication? Will it be comparable with the MES-DEA? Come on, I can't stand the waiting.


After this Friday episode of Jack Rickard you should look for an alternative to Mes-Dea motors. EVTV's Weekly News Show - March 19, 2010


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## speedy6963 (Mar 2, 2010)

I dont blame jack a bit for blasting MES-DEA and metricmind, that kind of customer service/support ( or lack of ) is horrid and unacceptable !!!

They never hear the phrase, "customer is always right" ??? ( sometimes it sucks, but as a business its always cheaper in the long run to keep the customer happy, especially one who is watched and listened to like Jack )



Matthijs said:


> After this Friday episode of Jack Rickard you should look for an alternative to Mes-Dea motors. EVTV's Weekly News Show - March 19, 2010


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## CroDriver (Jan 8, 2009)

JRoque said:


> hmmm... at 18,000 RPM direct drive I'd be going about 2400 MPH. I may have to slow down on school crossings.


As I told, a custom made reduction gear can be directly attached to the motor housing. It is very small and light.



JRoque said:


> - Are you concerned about demagnetization at higher power?


It shouldn't be a problem, we have left some headroom. We'll test it further to assure that everything will work as it should.



JRoque said:


> - What's the voltage low end for the controller?


48V but the power would be very limited (less than 50kW)

350+V is optimal



JRoque said:


> - Will you be selling the motor alone so we can pick (or build) our own controller?


This is also possible.



JRoque said:


> - Will it have a mounting base to take up the torsion forces?


Of course. This can be customized for different applications.



JRoque said:


> That is a beautiful machine. Can't wait for your pricing post!
> 
> JR


Working on it... 



Jan said:


> Cro, can't you give us at least an indication? Will it be comparable with the MES-DEA? Come on, I can't stand the waiting.


OK, OK... It's somewhere in the MES-DEA range.



JRP3 said:


> He's going to tease us until we're all worked up into a frenzy


Busted! LOL 



Matthijs said:


> After this Friday episode of Jack Rickard you should look for an alternative to Mes-Dea motors. EVTV's Weekly News Show - March 19, 2010


Wow, this looks horrible. Just because it's a product from switzerland doesn't mean that it's good quality. Many companies are abusing the "made in switzerland" phrase to hide how bad the product actually is. A example from the Geneva auto show:










Their "own" battery (Sky Energy cells in a plastic case)










A "revolutionary" BMS that charges the cells to 100% and discharges them to 0%  and measures the voltage of the cells with hundreds of long wires 

Don't even ask how much they want for this crap. 



speedy6963 said:


> I dont blame jack a bit for blasting MES-DEA and metricmind, that kind of customer service/support ( or lack of ) is horrid and unacceptable !!!
> 
> They never hear the phrase, "customer is always right" ??? ( sometimes it sucks, but as a business its always cheaper in the long run to keep the customer happy, especially one who is watched and listened to like Jack )


I'm a little concerned about this too. If I sell one of these systems to a French customer and he has problems I can sit in my car and be at the customer's place in 5 hours.

If I ship something to the US, customer service will be e-mail based. I still have to decide if I event want to export this stuff to the US.

I have been a victim of very poor customer support quite often and I want to avoid this if I have to provide that customer support


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## Olaf-Lampe (Feb 24, 2010)

Hi Cro,
I remember you asked me if we could deliver the 200kW Siemens motors, but unfortunately we couldn't. Now it's me to ask you about delivery time for an 80kW system. ( 200kW will be an overkill option ) 
We wouldn't need a reduction since our kitcar has always been powered by 1000-1300cc motorcycle engines rev'ing almost in the same RPM-range.

BR
Olaf
thorr.eu


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## Matthijs (Jun 19, 2009)

Olaf-Lampe said:


> Hi Cro,
> I remember you asked me if we could deliver the 200kW Siemens motors, but unfortunately we couldn't. Now it's me to ask you about delivery time for an 80kW system. ( 200kW will be an overkill option )
> We wouldn't need a reduction since our kitcar has always been powered by 1000-1300cc motorcycle engines rev'ing almost in the same RPM-range.
> 
> ...


The first search result on Google returns some very strange information. You should look into that. 








Can you tell me more about Centric AutoMotive? You claim to develop a modular inverter. The picture looks like the old Evisol inverter that never got released. Are you looking for one of CroDrivers inverters to just relabel them to Centric AutoMotive? Can you enlighten me about Evisol/Centric/Novomotive?


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## Guest (Mar 21, 2010)

CroDriver said:


> I'm a little concerned about this too. If I sell one of these systems to a French customer and he has problems I can sit in my car and be at the customer's place in 5 hours.
> 
> If I ship something to the US, customer service will be e-mail based. I still have to decide if I event want to export this stuff to the US.
> 
> I have been a victim of very poor customer support quite often and I want to avoid this if I have to provide that customer support


It's not impossible to provide basic customer service CroDriver. MEA-DES and Victor were in the denial of support before we could assemble photos and descriptions of the problem. Since we paid $13,000 for the pair under the assumption that MOST of the price was about supporting it, I found their behavior shocking.

But the biggest shock was the engineering itself. When we realized these guys were really going to throw us under the bus on an obviously cracked casting, we went ahead and opened the motor. I just burst out laughing when I saw it. It was 3/16 of an inch at its thickest point in cast aluminum. This is just nonsense. With 4 M8 bolt holes that weren't even spaced around the center.

As it turns out, had we mounted on the little weeny M6 bolts around the edge, it would have all been good. But we didn't get any support before the installation either. Victor simply said they don't do any help with mounting (after he had delivered the motor).

But we've been in the same situation as you. We simply WANTED a mid power AC solution. We're doing a project with the HPGC AC-50 and the Curtis 1238 now. But to attempt larger vehicles, or anything with a direct drive, we urgently need a 150kw peak solution in AC. 

The motor and controller obviously need to be robust enough for an automotive application. The MES-DEA didn't make it off the jackstands. I like the liquid cooled. We have actually designed a chill plate for the Curtis 1238 and anyone will be able to buy one direct from the machine shop without me marking anything up or taking a cut of it. I think he said $195 finally with the -AN6 fittings and everything.

So you can cut down your product support pretty smartly by:

1. Picking a strong motor.
2. Documenting the controller well (preferably in English in places).
3. Noting any mounting requirements in sufficient detail that an experienced machine shop would be able to follow it. (Our adapter was built by a guy who's run the same machine shop since 1955 - year of my birth).
4. Inventory spares. My problem conceptually is can I GET spares. The worst part of the MES-DEA thing was they wouldn't tell us when we could get a new end plate if we DID want to spend $758. This was an easy thing to smooth over. If they had said, well, we don't know if this is really on us, but we'll pay half and you pay half, we'll have you one there tomorrow morning, we would have taken the whole thing quite differently. The "not our problem" attitude and the 3-4 weeks waiting for an answer was a little hard to swallow after spending $13,000 on this rig.

In any event, yes, you have me all lathered up. We'd love to see pricing and availability.

Jack Rickard
http://EVTV.me


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## CroDriver (Jan 8, 2009)

Olaf-Lampe said:


> Hi Cro,
> I remember you asked me if we could deliver the 200kW Siemens motors, but unfortunately we couldn't. Now it's me to ask you about delivery time for an 80kW system. ( 200kW will be an overkill option )
> We wouldn't need a reduction since our kitcar has always been powered by 1000-1300cc motorcycle engines rev'ing almost in the same RPM-range.
> 
> ...


I hope that we'll have a motor installed in a car within one month and one more month to test it. I suppose that we can ship first units in June.




jrickard said:


> It's not impossible to provide basic customer service CroDriver. MEA-DES and Victor were in the denial of support before we could assemble photos and descriptions of the problem. Since we paid $13,000 for the pair under the assumption that MOST of the price was about supporting it, I found their behavior shocking.
> 
> But the biggest shock was the engineering itself. When we realized these guys were really going to throw us under the bus on an obviously cracked casting, we went ahead and opened the motor. I just burst out laughing when I saw it. It was 3/16 of an inch at its thickest point in cast aluminum. This is just nonsense. With 4 M8 bolt holes that weren't even spaced around the center.
> 
> ...


Hi Jack.

I'm glad that you're following this.

The company that makes the motors for me is a really top quality, low volume german factory. I was impressed when I first visited the factory. A lot is hand made and the factory is full with high tech equipment. I will take photos of the factory when I visit them again and I'l post them here if they will allow that. They also make some special motors for over 100.000 RPM and other special machines. They are not cheap but that's not what I'm looking for. I want top quality and I'm willing to pay for it.

If I will offer this system to US customers, be sure to have lots of documentation and all the support my distance allows. 

Here is some more info:










I don't know how to translate "schleppmoment", maybe someone can help here... I will try to explain what this graph is made for.

Since this is a permanent magnet motor it will slow the car down if the controller has a failure so this test is important for safety reasons. Imagine what would happen if the controller fails on the highway and the motor locks the rear wheels.

This graphs shows how much breaking torque (shleppmoment in german) the motor produces at a given rotor speed. Since the break force at high RPMs is very low this shouldn't be an issue. 30Nm at low RPMs are irrelevant.

Here is a RPM vs. power graph of a lower power motor:










The higher power models should have the same curve, just with different kW figures on the y axes. We'll test higher powers soon.

*Other features:*


48V-360V *or* 200V-700V
Integrated DC/DC 12V converter 
Full CAN support
Aluminum casing 
Liquid cooling

We're also working on a dual controller for a "electric differential" using two motors to avoid mechanical parts like differentials. A integrated high power charger is planed for next year.


The price largely depends on the volume, the lead time for IGBTs is very long so I ask for some more patience.

As I stated before, I have a healthy business that's not related to EVs so I don't do this to get rich.


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## Jan (Oct 5, 2009)

Matthijs said:


> After this Friday episode of Jack Rickard you should look for an alternative to Mes-Dea motors. EVTV's Weekly News Show - March 19, 2010


Hoi Matthijs, 

Yes I've seen it. My favourite TV SOAP nowadays. Don't miss an episode.

And also read Tyn245GL's comment on your question. Seems to me consumer sales at MES-DEA is seriously lacking in information providing. If their stuff really is crap, is not so sure to me wright now. 

I hope this motor of Cro will be seriously price competetive.


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## RoughRider (Aug 14, 2008)

@Jack
i have some experience with MES-DEA und their behavior towards people who wants to buy their products...it seems to me, that they dont realy care about customers...they want to deal with OEMs...

have you tried to get a UQM system?

i was in contact with UQM and the gave me a price for the 75kW system(motor and controller) of 20.000$...its high, but the system look better than the MES-DEA one...

a friend of mine has a car, that was build by MES-DEA...
so far he had no problem with motor and controller...but with the battery...MES-DEA gave him 2x a new one...

i realy like your TV-show...keep up the GOOD work...

one think i would like to say to you about your opinion of the TS-batteries...
in the show, you said:
1. the battery technologie is changing fast...i agree on this
2. you would rather buy the TS because the hold up to 4000cycles...
I think, that the 4000 cycles are absolutely useless...
as you said...the things are changing fast...and in 5years we should have much battery batteries for better price...
so beter buy the cheaper battery, that can stand the next 5 years...and than buy a new(much better one???) one


@CroDriver
the motor/controller looks good and when you can get them to the MES-DEA price...it would be nice

schleppmoment ==> drag torque

do you speek german?


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## CroDriver (Jan 8, 2009)

RoughRider said:


> @CroDriver
> the motor/controller looks good and when you can get them to the MES-DEA price...it would be nice
> 
> schleppmoment ==> drag torque
> ...


Thanks for the translation. 

Yes, my german is much better than my english. 

I know that my english is not the best but I'm working on it 

Btw. It's obvious that you're from a german speaking country



RoughRider said:


> i have some experience with MES-DEA *und* their behavior towards


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## 280z1975 (Oct 2, 2008)

CroDriver said:


> Two motors would be better of course. Four motors would be perfect. But I'm the wrong guy to ask since I'm a power addict


CroDriver, did I ever tell you that you are my hero?  ...


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## RoughRider (Aug 14, 2008)

@CroDriver

yeah...i am from germany...Wolfsburg...where the Volkswagen come from...


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## Guest (Mar 22, 2010)

RoughRider said:


> @Jack
> i have some experience with MES-DEA und their behavior towards people who wants to buy their products...it seems to me, that they dont realy care about customers...they want to deal with OEMs...
> 
> have you tried to get a UQM system?
> ...


I was just noting the new Thundersky Yttrium cells as an example of the change level and that they appear to have a more stable and flexible crystalline structure in the cathode. 

I'm always ready for the silicon nanowhisker breakthrough advance, but I think we'll see gradual annual improvements in the LiFePo4 basic cell we have for some time - a 5-6% style improvement annually as the more likely scenario.

Right now I'm mostly using SKy Energy in new projects. It seems to have a little flatter curve, a little less sag, and purport to do 4C continuous rather than 3C. 

I like these large prismatics, but they do not have the punch of the small format cells that do 10-20C supposedly. My controller for the Speedster is supposed to do 1200 amps. The most I see is 540 battery amps from the 180Amp TS cells I'm using. That's remarkably close to 3C. I suspect this 3C is the REAL limiting factor on power from these cells. If the Sky ENergy cells could do 4C continuous, that would imply more power.

We'll see.....

Jack Rickard
http://EVTV.me


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Ecolocap should be announcing the results from third party testing of it's Lithium-X battery this week. Lots of speculation but if it even meets some of the hype it could be interesting.
http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showpost.php?p=171260&postcount=68


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## Mesuge (Mar 6, 2008)

CroDriver said:


> *Other features:*
> 
> 
> 48V-360V *or* 200V-700V
> ...


Very interesting development, do I understand it correctly, that this german company xyz you work with, has been in the business of AC induction for some time already, so this is not completely start-up project? Usually these drives have got hundreds of tweakable parameters in the software, this is multi-year effort for several people to debug..

Would you and others be interested in two separate settings for regen as MES-DEA supposedly provides? So, you can set one value for brake pedal and slightly different for "gas" pedal.

Back to your quote on the possibility of avoiding differentials, so isn't it similar to this application, where 9-3 Saab (FWD) is driven directly by two electric motors? This is quite cool concept since it provides the option not using these traditional complex/heavy gearbox assemblies, which render many nice cars unfit for efficient EV conversion, on the other hand you need the adequate power from inverter and batteries..
http://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/...trik-erste-fahrt-im-elektro-saab-1464954.html


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## CroDriver (Jan 8, 2009)

Yes, the German company makes motors for a long time, but another one is making the controllers for us. I and my team work closely with them on the development and testing.

Things like the separate regen input can be easily done.

I don't know what Saab is doing with it's two motors at the front but it would be stupid not to use this hardware if it's already there. 

ABS and traction control systems (ESP, DSC etc.) can respond only a few times per second since the mechanical and hydraulic/pneumatic parts in it are slow. Regen breaking with high powers and a traction/launch control can revolution the way of driving because we can control what each wheel does hundreds/thousands of times per second. In both directions.

There are many doors that such a setup opens. This system can allow DIY-ers to tweak the software the way they want it. I'm sure that very nice innovations will shop up when people start using this units.

I would prefer to put this thread in a kind of sleep mode until more information is available so we don't discuss too much about something that's not even ready for the market. 

Although this is a very well engineered product, it is still a prototype so I want to find bugs if they exist before offering it and all this pressure for more information isn't very good for the process


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## Techie (Sep 19, 2009)

This is very interesting to me, I'm not putting pressure on ya, I won't be ready to do any purchase for a year or so.. keep up the good work!


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

CroDriver said:


> I would prefer to put this thread in a kind of sleep mode until more information is available so we don't discuss too much about something that's not even ready for the market.


Sure, show us an awesome setup we all want then expect us not to talk about it  You're almost as bad as the battery makers who won't sell us their amazing batteries


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## Mesuge (Mar 6, 2008)

CroDriver> thanks for the answer. I forgot one important question, any chance your inverter (or modified version thereof) would work standard industrial ac induction motors (ACIMs)? They come in aluminium case and pretty efficient from some top brands like ABB, so for instance you can have 4-pole 11kW (nominal) and ~60kW peak in <70kg package, or even over 100kW peak from (22kW nominal) 2-pole bellow 100kg. 

However, overclocked 4-pole ACIMs top in torque at ~3k rpm, so this is mostly usefull with either retaining tranny, or putting large diff., or not demanding high top speed application (city/lower highway speed car based on heavier donor etc.) 

So, this might be the optional avenue for many people wanting to save some money on fancy 8-pole emotors from your suggested original high-end package, the potential here is to simplify access to AC drivetrain for many diyers, which would not consider one before due to elevated price.

Obviously, the best approach would be to have recommended two or three models, which are known to work with your inverter, so this is not turning into support issue nightmare for you, I'd suggest these three power levels: 11, 15, 22kw (nominal) based on 4-pole ACIM models from reputable global brand like ABB, SEW and alike, with encoder they can be sourced for ~ $1,5-3k.

In this fashion, you can theoretically undercut AzureD/Solectria's grip over large part of the AC conversion market. Recently there have been posted some horror stories about their repeatedly leaking gearboxes (for FWD application), they don't do higher voltages (as you hinted you could with different set of IGBTs), not watercooled in standard version, not very feature-rich interface etc. Their system seems to be stucked in the early/mid 1990s.

In the mid-long term I think they might be finished (speaking conversions market), because when Otmar releases his Tri-Zilla (in crude <100kW prototype since ~2007) feat. his neat Hairball wiring interface, it's all over for AzureD, so you should perhaps think about this in larger context as well. Btw. James from EV Components promised AC Zilla - real prototype disclousure for 2010..

Also "Tritium James" the solar racing guy, is targeting ~ $6k for his 200kW inverter (based on the same guts as the Saab linked previously), I guess they are running two test mules (Civic and Porsche), one with similar ACIM - induction motor and one with BLDC motor, so hopefully in the begining of this decade the AC drivetrain will finally take over.


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## Jan (Oct 5, 2009)

CroDriver said:


> I would prefer to put this thread in a kind of sleep mode...


Oh no you don't.


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## eagle (Feb 24, 2010)

I'll be in Poland this summer--I'd love to take a road trip to pick one of these up.

So what's everyone (but CROdriver) guessing...$10,000 for the motor and controller?


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## pm_dawn (Sep 14, 2009)

The Saab guys referenced earlier in the thread can be found here:
http://www.electroengine.se/en/index.php

They do indeed use two motors in the front to replace the machanical differential. They use torque motors with direct drive.

I totally agree with you CroDriver about the possibillities about AWD with one motor per wheel and using real driveshafts to the wheels. This would combine all the good things with a hub motor without sacrificing the unsprung weight issue. Plus I have always thought it will be better to let the chassi take all the torque from the motores, rather than the suspension and arms that holds the wheels. Even if the brake force is normally taken by these components. Also all electric braking could be done to even remove more unsprung weight.

The features about ABS/ESP/traction control and other stability helping system should be much more exact to implement, plus it would be easy to change traction division between front and rear, just by changing values in the controller(s). 

Changing from mostly fwd to mostly rwd would be done in seconds.

The dimensions of the motors really enables back to back mounting between the wheels which feels like a really neat way to go. 


Best Regards
/Per Eklund
Sweden


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## Mesuge (Mar 6, 2008)

Hi Per, yes that swedish setup looks like 2x inverters (~120kW each) + 2x perm motors (prolly quite similar to CroDriver's 8poles). The magic is in the software though, "digital differential" means these two inverters/emotors must be torque/rpm matched-synchornized to allow each wheel to have slightly different speed, for instance as taking a turn. I think this is the ultimate win-win conversion approach for fwd cars (ICE donors), and especially uniquelly styled bodies with not optimal place for components/batteries. And as they hint even big auto OEM can massproduce it quite easily, but that's a different story. Hopefully, one day this clever concept will be diy-scene replicated, specifically on that note perhaps two MG2 Prius 50kW motors in back to back assembly could be reused in this fashion with suitable 3rd party inverters and software. So, you can get nice <100kW fwd conversion kit. Or in lower power envelope, e.g. combined ~60kW for econobox donor based conversion you can use not that much expensive brand new motors. 

PS their PR is a bit misleading, this particular 9-3 prototype can do "only" ~50km per charge (not 150km), that's what appears from one german interview, there is no place for dozens of kWh to be stored inside that convertible (or any other modern SAAB) without drastic surgery, maybe the AWD models do have some sort of usable middle tunnel.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

eagle said:


> I'll be in Poland this summer--I'd love to take a road trip to pick one of these up.
> 
> So what's everyone (but CROdriver) guessing...$10,000 for the motor and controller?


Nah, I'm sure it will be closer to $5k  I'll take 2


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## pm_dawn (Sep 14, 2009)

Mesuge said:


> PS their PR is a bit misleading, this particular 9-3 prototype can do "only" ~50km per charge (not 150km), that's what appears from one german interview, there is no place for dozens of kWh to be stored inside that convertible (or any other modern SAAB) without drastic surgery, maybe the AWD models do have some sort of usable middle tunnel.


Yes I know they would need quite a shoe horn to fit those 26kwh in the convertible. But since I can fit 19.2kwh in my Renault Clio I don't think it is impossible at all. They can use some of the engine compartment for enegy storage and also where gas tank normally was. If they use small cells in there pack they could form the package pretty much any way they like.

They have a project together with Boston Power to put 100 cars into production at Saab. to bad Boston power got bad reviews on their new cells. I would love to see the 9-3 with a A123 pouch pack. Just imagine the power in a 26kwh. Those A123 pouches would easily put out 260 kw at that pack size.

Do you know what controller they use?

Best Regards
/Per


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## Mesuge (Mar 6, 2008)

They use Semikron's, that's U.S. automotive grade inverter manufactured according to gov. specs for EVs and hybrids with mass adoption in mind (durable 15yrs, very cheap in large quantities), PNGV a plan set up in the 1990s - early 2000s. That's basically standalone drive unit, you only need the wiring harness and proper software to run the specific emotor/car with it, and that was usually behind the OEM paywall, fortunately there are some open source projects to deal with that now. Also several AC drivetrain startups use it (and just hide it inside their custom box, lol), others just use IGBTs from the same co. and design their own descrete parts inverter from scratch, which I guess is a bit futile activity, if this puppy is done. It's quite likely that CroDriver's project utilizes this stuff as well in some fashion, but there are other projects based on these in the pipeline. Hopefully, the days of Brusa/ACP five figure pricetags for the ~100kW kit are numbered..


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## Matthijs (Jun 19, 2009)

Mesuge said:


> They use Semikron's, that's U.S. automotive grade inverter manufactured according to gov. specs for EVs and hybrids with mass adoption in mind (durable 15yrs, very cheap in large quantities), PNGV a plan set up in the 1990s - early 2000s. That's basically standalone drive unit, you only need the wiring harness and proper software to run the specific emotor/car with it, and that was usually behind the OEM paywall, fortunately there are some open source projects to deal with that now. Also several AC drivetrain startups use it (and just hide it inside their custom box, lol), others just use IGBTs from the same co. and design their own descrete parts inverter from scratch, which I guess is a bit futile activity, if this puppy is done. It's quite likely that CroDriver's project utilizes this stuff as well in some fashion, but there are other projects based on these in the pipeline. Hopefully, the days of Brusa/ACP five figure pricetags for the ~100kW kit are numbered..


Well we all know what happened to those $800 Siemens Ford motors. They are now being offered for $15.000 Forumlink for a motor and controller package via some distributors. Using open source design to make good money should only be made possible if they offer additional customer support. Do you have some examples of other AC projects that look promising? 

PS I have sent you some PM's but did not receive any response. Did you got those? I can't imagine you are ignoring me because we had good contact in the past.


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## Mesuge (Mar 6, 2008)

Sorry, I don't get your Siemens reference (besides they will restart/rump up production if there is a demand)? The idea discussed in recent posts is to have available powerfull, sturdy and affordable high voltage inverter in the first place (unobtanium nowadays), say upto 120kW, which can run any globaly sourced industrial grade ACIMs or various perm motor bastard leftovers from the ongoing Toyota hybrid program etc. Yes, industrial ACIMs are not optimal (low rpm, air cooled), but this is not meant to be >80mph application, but certainly possible to source the components very much bellow ten grands, and thus have a rock solid drivetrain that will survive .5M miles. The performance level above that will remain premium/high-end into the future, and perhaps CroDriver and others will focus there and deliver quality for good price (in comparison to MES/DEA, Brusa, ACP, and others)..


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## Matthijs (Jun 19, 2009)

Mesuge said:


> Sorry, I don't get your Siemens reference (besides they will restart/rump up production if there is a demand)? The idea discussed in recent posts is to have available powerfull, sturdy and affordable high voltage inverter in the first place (unobtanium nowadays), say upto 120kW, which can run any globaly sourced industrial grade ACIMs or various perm motor bastard leftovers from the ongoing Toyota hybrid program etc. Yes, industrial ACIMs are not optimal (low rpm, air cooled), but this is not meant to be >80mph application, but certainly possible to source the components very much bellow ten grands, and thus have a rock solid drivetrain that will survive .5M miles. The performance level above that will remain premium/high-end into the future, and perhaps CroDriver and others will focus there and deliver quality for good price (in comparison to MES/DEA, Brusa, ACP, and others)..


Ah IC now. Well with the Siemens reference I was referring to the company that created an AC controller for I think several AC motors just like the Mes-Dea Tim600 100Kw controller (€2700) which also can be setup to control different AC motors . But I agree that price wise and application wise AC components are destined to be offered in a lower prize range, contruction and component wize this is no problem. But I think a application like you are describing will come from the diy scene in a open source setup.


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## metricmind (Jun 19, 2009)

------------


jrickard said:


> It's not impossible to provide basic customer service CroDriver. MEA-DES and
> 
> Victor were in the denial of support before we could assemble photos and descriptions of the
> 
> ...


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## metricmind (Jun 19, 2009)

---------- 

Part 2.


BTW, in the show there was a remark about authors finding only 5 instances these motors are used in 

and only one (in Austin) actually works. Apparently authors didn't bother to do any search outside 

hobby EVDL and hurried into a misleading conclusion. Little digging reveals some links for your 

review:

- Palio Elletrica manufactured by Fiat in South America:
http://www.autoblog.it/post/4260/fiat-palio-elettrica , it uses 15kW MES-DEA motor - with 

*identical* front flange (shared by all 200 series motors) same as this customer used.

- Iveco Daily built by Altra-Iveco
http://www.sae.org/mags/sve/TOOLS/6219 - you can see 3 MES-DC-DC converters under hood; motor is not 

visible on this photo but it is 200-250 - the same motor this customer used;

- Citroen Berlingo:
http://green.autoblog.com/tag/Venturi or http://www.evworld.com/news.cfm?newsid=22441
Venturi buys MES-DEA motors for Berlingos, I believe 200-330W type.

None of these vehicles were reported by the manufacturer to have any problem experienced by this 

customers, ever. 

There are probably other cars out there, I just don't have time to do serches.
/---------------------

As it turns out, had we mounted on the little weeny M6 bolts around the edge, it would have all been 

good. But we didn't get any support before the installation either. Victor simply said they don't do 

any help with mounting (after he had delivered the motor).

/---------------------
Yes, we don't educate people how to do conversions. Each installation is
unique and to provide complete guidance so there are no errors, means
working on this particular project - going to the installation place and supervise.
We don't do this unless it is private consulting job. It is not possible to
do for every customer modifying things his own way. 
/---------------------

But we've been in the same situation as you. We simply WANTED a mid power AC solution. We're doing a 

project with the HPGC AC-50 and the Curtis 1238 now. But to attempt larger vehicles, or anything 

with a direct drive, we urgently need a 150kw peak solution in AC.

The motor and controller obviously need to be robust enough for an automotive application. The 

MES-DEA didn't make it off the jackstands. I like the liquid cooled. We have actually designed a 

chill plate for the Curtis 1238 and anyone will be able to buy one direct from the machine shop 

without me marking anything up or taking a cut of it. I think he said $195 finally with the -AN6 

fittings and everything.

So you can cut down your product support pretty smartly by:

1. Picking a strong motor.
2. Documenting the controller well (preferably in English in places).
3. Noting any mounting requirements in sufficient detail that an experienced machine shop would be 

able to follow it. (Our adapter was built by a guy who's run the same machine shop since 1955 - year 

of my birth).

/-----------------------
In my experience, there are *plenty* of machine shops which are capable of making truly amazing 

parts - very slick and sophisticated - as yo wish.
Machinists are like artists, but they don't know a jack about electric vehicle application. They 

will fabricate any part you wish, but *you* must tell them what to fabricate. They are not going to 

perform stress analysis.
They may eye-ball something pretty accurately and tell you that
something will brake or will hold. But for that they must be exerts in an electric vehicle 

application, not just materials and machining. And you will
find that very few are.
/----------------------

4. Inventory spares. My problem conceptually is can I GET spares. The worst part of the MES-DEA 

thing was they wouldn't tell us when we could get a new end plate if we DID want to spend $758.

/-----------------
The plate was quoted for this amount and we DID ask if customer wants it
for that price. If price was OK, *then* we would arrange import and work out timing as it takes 

quote an effort. Naturally MES did not want to bother production to prepare quotation and find lead 

times and make other arrangements for unusual for their routine deal if at the end customer would 

say it's too expensive. But the customer never said if the price was OK, so no one bothered to ask 

further for lead time if it was going to be no sale anyway.
/-------------------

This was an easy thing to smooth over. If they had said, well, we don't know if this is really on 

us, but we'll pay half and you pay half, we'll have you one there tomorrow morning, we would have 

taken the whole thing quite differently. The "not our problem" attitude and the 3-4 weeks waiting 

for an answer was a little hard to swallow after spending $13,000 on this rig.

/------------------
Well, the blatant fact remains it is not supplier's problem if customer does something on its own 

and breaks something (unless it is manufacturing defect, which it was not). Evidently, this customer 

does not like this fact but it doesn't change it.

While trying to resolve issue civilized way we told customer upfront, before anything: let us know 

what we have done wrong and we will fix it at out expense, no problem.

Well, until too late, we were not asked anything regarding installation.
So we happily assumed customer knows what he is doing. 
Turn out, what we have done wrong is didn't pay for customer's mistake without asking questions. 

Attempts to explain what the mistake was were taken as protecting our interests and leave customer 

in the dust.
We would not be in business for 10 years and enjoy reputation we have if this was our every day 

attitude. This customer cannot no to know this.
I wish we could help on the technical side, but right messages just do not
get through. I suppose with one single customer in 10 years and hundreds of happy ones, this can 

happen. Certainly we did not want this outcome.

Personally, I don't have problem with ignorance - it may not be a field of expertise at all for a 

person. But I do have problem with inability to admit even a possibility of ignorance. Bottom line 

people - don't afraid to ask!
It is better to ask seemingly obvious and reconfirm twice than face broken
hardware after overlooking something silly. We like questions - right answers help you (and us) to 

succeed.

Victor Tikhonov
http://www.metricmind.com
http://www.metricmind.com/ac_honda/main2.htm
http://www.metricmind.com/audi/main.htm
/----------------------------

In any event, yes, you have me all lathered up. We'd love to see pricing and availability.

Jack Rickard
http://EVTV.me[/quote]


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## Guest (Mar 26, 2010)

This is hilarious. I got a call from Victor two days ago. I'm not sure if it was a death threat or what it was so inept. Basically, from memory - "MES-DEA is a large and powerful company. They are not pleased with your talk and your e-mail. If you do not stop, they will take action. You have been warned."

I said Victor don't be ridiculous. I'm the injured party here, not MES-DEA. What are they going to do, bomb my house? Take away my birthday?"

"I am just the messenger - YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED" and he hangs up.

Now this diatribe. We had a dozen e-mails back and forth with all of Victor's imaginings of what we had probably done wrong. We sent photos, diagrams, measurements etc. At NO time in this 4 WEEK period did he posit that there was anything wrong with using the end plate as the mounting plate.

He GOT this information from us. AFTER we pulled the plate and did the video. It was then OBVIOUS the mounting plate couldn't be used for mounting. NOW he's an expert.

Keep watching the videos Victor. You'll learn more this week. We have "engineered" an end plate for this motor, and it appears to work very nicely.

Just ask? The last I "asked" was a couple of simple questions about the software setup on the controller. The response? "I don't know. I've never run that software."

As to the threats, I don't quite know how to respond. I've never received a death threat in response to an Internet video. Whatever happens in the land of electric vehicles, I hope you have a long, healthy and prosperous life Victor. But I'm not buying any more of your stuff, and I can't recommend the experience to our viewers.

Jack Rickard


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## Olaf-Lampe (Feb 24, 2010)

@Jjrickard
I would say Victor has a point here. 
Why do you think this was a death thread? 
My ex-company wanted to convert a series of french brand cars. OEM said, they wouldn't hinder us, but we had to remove everything related to their brand name. Otherwise, If *we* would have built a rolling bomb and *they* would have gotten negative headlines in the media, they would have claimed a multimillion $ thread upon us.
Maybe that's what Victor meant, when he warned you.

Just my two cent
Olaf, former Evisol employee


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## Bowser330 (Jun 15, 2008)

Soooo....what about those updates CroDriver? Any news on pricing, etc?


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## 280z1975 (Oct 2, 2008)

To the all-mighty and powerful MODS ... is it possible to splice/separate the MES-DEA posts into another thread as this discussion is taking away from what was a quite positive thread by CroDriver over his efforts and work on finding an AC motor.


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## Dj_Devil (Mar 26, 2010)

Hi..

Do you send to norway also?
Can this motor and controller drive a "Opel (Holden) Calibra"?
I have a calibra im thinking about making an electric car.

(this is a large forum. Have eney one here done this to an Opel\Holden Calibra? Send me an Pm with link please)


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## Matthijs (Jun 19, 2009)

I found an interesting article on IPM Motors: A New Solution for High-Performance Appliances

@CroDriver Can you say which type of motor you have sourced? PM (SPM) or  PM (IPM) motors?

From the article:




> *Applications*
> Some of the most popular IPM applications, possibly not familiar enough to the general audience, are the electric motors/generators of hybrid or all-electric vehicles. In the servomotor world, more and more designs are shifting away from SPM to IPM to take advantage of the inherent advantages previously discussed. In principle, there are no size limitations to IPM designs, and these can be developed from small fractional horsepower (hp) to large (hundreds of hp ratings)....For example, the use of a line-fed IPM, as the one exemplified in Figure 3, can increase the motor-rated efficiency by up to four points above the already high efficiency of a top-of-the-line induction motor.


This motor is amazing! Are there any downsides!


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## zwmaster (Nov 23, 2009)

It's a SPM. Must check so i don't mix-up these acronyms


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

It seems the MES motors are rather fragile. It's common practice to mount the motor using the same face that holds the bearing in most motors we use. Since the MES breaks with this practice there really ought to be clear warning stamped or painted on the face, or at least a note in the box. Additionally axial loads are not an issue with any other motors that we commonly use, so a note of that potential problem should also be included with the MES motors.


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## JRoque (Mar 9, 2010)

Meow! I'll throw myself into the pit here and ruin my newly minted reputation on this forum. 

Point well made, JRP3.

BTW, I bought, from Digikey of all places, a few encapsulated DC-DC converters for a power supply I designed. Two blew up when I applied power. I called Digikey and they overnighted two replacements free of charge.

I wouldn't call Victor's posting a diatribe. Jack made a nearly 2 hour long video about the horrors of his product and service so he's responding... Maybe those two pages could be posted on his site to help us "amateurs" install his "professional" motors.

But who cares. Cro, I put my kids to bed last night with a wonderful story about the little PM motor that could. Got anymore material to share with us?

JR


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## Guest (Mar 26, 2010)

JRP3 said:


> It seems the MES motors are rather fragile. It's common practice to mount the motor using the same face that holds the bearing in most motors we use. Since the MES breaks with this practice there really ought to be clear warning stamped or painted on the face, or at least a note in the box. Additionally axial loads are not an issue with any other motors that we commonly use, so a note of that potential problem should also be included with the MES motors.



JRP. Victor's post analysis is ENTIRELY fabricated. He did not know not to mount by the face plate until he saw the video. He's never used one of these motors, and in fact has never seen the software for the controller.

We corresponded daily for four weeks. We talked on the telephone. His "analysis" was originally based on his question as to whether we had weighed the two ends as mounted. I responded that we had leveled the motor. His response, this from a supposedly European University educated engineer, was that that was insufficient. We should have equal weights on each end. I actually was at a loss for words to respond.


For those of you with a European University Engineering degree, a Couple is a system of forces with a resultant (a.k.a. net, or sum) moment but no resultant force. Another term for a couple is a pure moment. Read up on it.

For those of you lacking such training (such as myself) go carry a refrigerator up a set of stairs. The guy on the bottom loses. And all of us that have leveled the refrigerator know that that's about as fair as it gets.

He reviewed DETAILED photographs with dimensions of the adapter plate, the motor, the motor end etc and made ENDLESS comments about the radius curve at the bottom of the boss, etc. etc. At NO time did he, nor anyone from MES-DEA mention ANYTHING about the end plate being 6.26 mm thick at it's THICKEST WEIGHT BEARING FACE and made of cast aluminum. Nor did they mention ANY problem using it to bear the weight of the motor.

The ONLY time Victor has mentioned that any ignorant backwoods whiskey maker from Missouri shouldn't mount by the face of this motor was AFTER he saw and was responding to the video - and only in this forum - never to me directly at any time in the course of about 15 e-mail messages and several telephone calls. In fact, this was NOT cited as the reason for "our error." But rather that we had unequal weight distribution from a unit suspended at the two ends and leveled. THIS from your highly vaunted Swedish Engineers and Mr. Victor Tikhonov. 

The situation is needlessly ridiculous. And my only purpose here is to inform those doing conversions that this product specifically, and by inference this company specifically, are not viable components for a home conversion.

WE'RE going to do just fine. We have $6600 now invested in a custom adapter plate and replacement end plate for a $13,000 motor and controller slightly more powerful than the AC50 and Curtis 1238 you can buy from a California manufacturer that has been in electric motors for over 20 years at a cost of $4500 plus $885 for an OFF THE SHELF adapter kit (I rather like the one from ELectro Automotive.) 

I'm confident it will ultimately be made to work very well in the Mini Cooper. We will make it work very well. But I don't think the average guy doing a conversion should be using this solution. Going in, I rather implied he could. That must be publicly corrected.

I mind not at all falling on my sword for my stupid mistakes and in public - so that others might know. One of the problems in this group and most EV discussions is the reticence of the participants to publicly report embarrassing mistakes - allowing their peers to make them as well unfortunately.

Am I embarrassed? Sure. But a couple of wee drams of some of my Chilean Cabernet Sauvignon brandy at about 110 proof cask strength out of the barrel will take care of that just fine. I'm not a kid.

And I would recommend a couple of shots of Stoly for my friend Victor. To publicly proclaim ME as ignorant, using information he got from MY video, about HIS product is just beyond the pale of absurdity - quite beyond the patent dishonesty inherent in the plea.

ALong the way, Victor has posed half a dozen very wordy engineering theories about how WE screwed it up. We responded to each one with photographs and data. In the end, they issued a very vague "decree" that it was their considered finding that they were not at fault. (Understand Victor not at fault however it came out and he wants that very clearly understood from the beginning.)

The engineering is ridiculously inept. The product support is nonexistant. And Victor's business and personal ethics are highly questionable.

So blow up my house and take away my birthday. The idea of "shutting me up" with a threatening phone call delivering "the warning" is preposterous. I have no malice in this or any other case reported. They're all pieces and parts to me - reported as honestly as I know how. 

Meanwhile, we remain without a good AC solution at an attractive 150kw power level. And to return the thread where it belongs, ergo my interest in Cro's product entry.

Am I a bit cranky and hard to deal with as a customer? Ask Ryan Bohm at EV Source and David Kois at EVComponents. I most publicly am. But I pay promptly and if the product works and the vendor works, I tell that to the people out there paying their more dearly won ducats to get quality components and appropriate support for the ducats tendered. 

No vendor can afford to design your car for you guys. But basic and specific questions about software parameters that are unexplained by documentation? Which mounting holes to use? For $13,000 I got a ONE PAGE brochure covering ALL of their motors. And recall that the motor was RECEIVED over a year ago with a broken cooling fitting out of the box and Victor's suggestion was that we fix it ourselves using JBWELD. "Really quite a remarkable product" he claimed.

So yes, I would LOVE to see a good controller and motor in the 150-200 kw peak range at an appropriate price - and I"m NOT one of these guys that think everything should be priced at the cost of the steel used to produce it. We have to have this in order to do larger or more powerful cars.

Jack Rickard


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## fivil (Dec 31, 2009)

CroDriver,
Can we see some interior photos of this motor? I'd like to see the construction method for the surface mounted PMs especially. What's the rotor diameter? Any photos of the rear exterior of the motor and maybe a shot including the interior of the water jacket? 

Is the motor sensored or sensorless? I'd love to see more technical data on the controller as well, including what can be configured in the software (and maybe more photos as well?).

Hopefully your lower power setups can be priced in the range of the AC50 by HPGC...there would definitely be a market waiting for you if you can get under $5k.




Thanks for putting more options into a very limited market. I'll be keeping a close eye on this thread for updates.


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## JRoque (Mar 9, 2010)

> Hopefully your lower power setups can be priced in the range of the AC50 by HPGC


Well said!! It'd be great to have a choice in this price/performance range.

Along with fivil's questions, how about cogging? Not that it's terribly important at the forces of a car, but can the motor turn freely by hand or is there perceivable cogging from the magnets?

And how about a weekly (or biweekly) project update to throw a bone in here for us to chew on? Hey, you started it!!

Cheers,
JR


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## CroDriver (Jan 8, 2009)

Not much to report...

We got a price quote from the germans for manufacturing these for us and we (I and ZWmaster - we're working on this together) where just like 

We're looking now to a alternative method - let them manufacture the stator and maybe rotor and we make the rest and assemble them.

The price they want for the first 10 units is just crazy. I hope that we can reduce the price to a 1/3 or 1/4 of the current price tag.

That's why I don't want to post any prices yet, because prototyping and sample production is very expensive and I can't sell them for a good price yet because they cost me a lot more than they are worth and than anyone would be willing to pay.


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## Olaf-Lampe (Feb 24, 2010)

That doesn't surprise me much. _Everyone_ wants to get rich in an instant.
Just take the idea and go to china, where they are more realistic. 
BTW the 18k rpm are not the best choice for EVers

-Olaf


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

CroDriver said:


> Not much to report...
> 
> We got a price quote from the germans for manufacturing these for us and we (I and ZWmaster - we're working on this together) where just like
> 
> ...


Sigh, not surprising. If Cro thinks they are expensive, they must be insane  High power PM motors seem to be the most expensive, thinking of UQM. AC induction should be inherently cheaper to build, probably one reason Tesla went that direction. Do what HPEVS did, get some Leeson motors, and machine some end plates, and rewind them if necessary. Then find someone, (http://www.rinehartmotion.com/ maybe? ), to make a custom inverter for you, then make copies of that.


----------



## JRoque (Mar 9, 2010)

> ... go to china


and that's when I'd cancel my order 

JR


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

JRoque said:


> and that's when I'd cancel my order
> 
> JR


Why? That's where all our batteries are coming from.


----------



## Guest (Mar 27, 2010)

fivil said:


> CroDriver,
> Can we see some interior photos of this motor? I'd like to see the construction method for the surface mounted PMs especially. What's the rotor diameter? Any photos of the rear exterior of the motor and maybe a shot including the interior of the water jacket?
> 
> Is the motor sensored or sensorless? I'd love to see more technical data on the controller as well, including what can be configured in the software (and maybe more photos as well?).
> ...


I don't think that's happening any time soon. Talking to Calmotors, UQM, Raiser, etc, we're seeing prices from $18K to $30K and more for motor/controller combinations. It's just outta site.

One of the most promising developments is Getrag's decision to enter the space. They are going to do motor/transmission combinations. I've got a friend who's kind of talking to them on our behalf about getting a prototype, which is mostly what is available. But Getrag is the largest transmission company in the world and make some gorgeous transmissions. 

In the meanwhile, I would be satisfied to see a 50kw continuous, 200 kw peak water cooled motor and controller combination if it could break below $10K and do 6000 rpm. Oh and it needs to be smaller than a refrigerator.

So far there is nothing in this space. And I guess I'm thinking there won't be until someone specifically goes after it with their own controller design. If we could locate a motor, and develop an open source controller, that would be ideal.

A drive train in that class at the price of the HPEVS system is just not going to happen.

Incrementally, there might be some gains. I'm convinced the HPEVS system could be bumped a bit with a larger controller. And if enough AC50s were sold, I don't see why the HPEVS guys wouldn't consider an AC75.

Jack RIckard


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## Kelmark (Oct 26, 2009)

If there was an efficient 60kw peak AC system out there for around $6,500 I know I would jump all over it! Still looking and praying.


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## Mesuge (Mar 6, 2008)

Your (U.S.) gov commissioned under PNGV targets for next gen AC drivetrains (upto ~200kW peak) in EV/hybrid application based on the latest state of the art IGBTs, this has taken place a ~decade ago, they exist we discussed few pages back, quotes are around $7/kW in 100k volume production (double and triple that for small orders). That translates into 700-1400bucks for 100kW, respectivelly 200kW inverters (plus emotor, wiring harnes, cooling circuit etc.). Yes, this is OEM pricing and for large orders, as long as the bozos, formely of now almost deserted Detroit, won't massproduce the EV thing the pricing won't change, the diy community is a small fish in terms of purchasing power. Perhaps better approach than everybody "garage developing" their own drivetrain (no pun intended here against CroDriver's high end project), would be to organize a group buy, find at least 100-1000x interested individual parties or conversion shops and place the order.. 

Similarly, as demonstrated by recent development, the high performance DC market is no longer dominated exclusively by Zilla, you have got EVnetics/Solition1 and the Ecomoder-opensource guys to name a few contenders, which seem to shape up the scene now and into the future. So, there might be increased presure on Zilla/Otmar to finish his AC Zilla prototype and put it on the market for reasonable price as soon as possible (<<<$10k). They (evcomponents) "promised" to show more advanced prototype and specs in 2010, so ask them about the progress on this front and declare there are people willing to plunk down the cash now..


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## Guest (Mar 27, 2010)

Kelmark said:


> If there was an efficient 60kw peak AC system out there for around $6,500 I know I would jump all over it! Still looking and praying.


My calculations would indicate your dream has come true. The AC50 with the Curtis 1238 looks like 120v x 550 amps x .88 for 58080 watts. I'm told the controller kicks out at 130v, so if you push it to 124v or so you should be there. It's $4500 now. 

I want a 50kw CONTINUOUS system that will do 200kw peak.

Jack Rickard


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## Matthijs (Jun 19, 2009)

Mesuge said:


> They (evcomponents) "promised" to show more advanced prototype and specs in 2010, so ask them about the progress on this front and declare there are people willing to plunk down the cash now..





frodus said:


> Progress with Zilla AC?
> 
> As far as I know, there is none, that was years ago.


http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showpost.php?p=172645&postcount=21


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

jrickard said:


> I don't think that's happening any time soon. Talking to Calmotors, UQM, Raiser, etc, we're seeing prices from $18K to $30K and more for motor/controller combinations. It's just outta site.


Possibly now that UQM is making the motor for Coda they might start becoming available at a better price. Might have to wait for a wrecked Coda though.



> Incrementally, there might be some gains. I'm convinced the HPEVS system could be bumped a bit with a larger controller. And if enough AC50s were sold, I don't see why the HPEVS guys wouldn't consider an AC75.
> 
> Jack RIckard


Agree. HPEVS told me their motors can go to 200 volts or so.  Get someone like www.rinehartmotion.com/ to build a 250-ish volt unit to avoid battery sag and maybe 700 amps to boost torque a little more, wrap some cooling coils around the motor, and have a party!


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## Mesuge (Mar 6, 2008)

jrickard said:


> I want a 50kw CONTINUOUS system that will do 200kw peak.


Jack, that's the very power envelope many wanted to cover here. But that's most likely not doable with forklift low voltage AC drivetrain material, nowadays everybody incl. OEM hybrids adopted high voltage at least 400-500VDC and more, that's because big industrial IGBTs are ready, and primarily because running high current cabling is just problematic (weight, EMR, BMS, efficiency, safety, ..)

Btw. allow for a little off topic detour here, I'm wondering why did you opt for Beck-Chamonix (the bigger company factor?) for your Speedster donor over say Thunder-Ranch's (or are there any other serious manufs. left besides these two?) Speedsters are seductive timeless piece of machinery, however, I'd not want to be in a crash situation in them even at limited speed. I guess, it is quite similar to motorcycles, you can be easily maimed or killed in a trivial accident, but the thrills cruising it are enormous. Too bad the best engineering&quality&safety kit company out there (FFR) only focuses on "dull" Cobras (Mk4 improved that though) and unaerodynamic GTM, oh the pandora box of suitable donors just cracked open, sorry guys, back on the main topic shortly:

Matthijs, this is from the other forum ~7months old:

_The first attempt at an AC Zilla was composed of 3x Zilla1K-HV. But a real prototype would be completely different. That was a quick attempt just to test the concept. I actually saw it. Otmar was not even close to satisfied with it. The first real prototype of an AC Zilla will be in 2010 after regular Zilla production is humming again. __Stay tuned... __James Morrison __EV Components_


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## Kelmark (Oct 26, 2009)

jrickard said:


> My calculations would indicate your dream has come true. The AC50 with the Curtis 1238 looks like 120v x 550 amps x .88 for 58080 watts. I'm told the controller kicks out at 130v, so if you push it to 124v or so you should be there. It's $4500 now.
> 
> I want a 50kw CONTINUOUS system that will do 200kw peak.
> 
> Jack Rickard


I thought HPGC's AC-50 was a 48KW system... I think I read that in Tom's E-swift thread somewhere. Which made it comparable with Azure's AC24ls which has a 47kw peak power rating. 

I am looking for a system about 10KW above the AC-50/AC24ls so I can acheive <12sec 0-60 time in my car.

I think the AC-50 motor can handle it but we need a better controller.


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## Coulomb (Apr 22, 2009)

Kelmark said:


> I thought HPGC's AC-50 was a 48KW system... I think I read that in Tom's E-swift thread somewhere.


That was probably this post:
http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showpost.php?p=166657&postcount=417
which stated 49.8 kW, extrapolated from a dynamometer run with a 96 volt pack sagging to 85 V, to a 115 V pack sagging to 111 V. So this is mechanical power at the wheel, which requires about 15% more than mechanical power output from the motor, which the Azure Dynamics AC24LS would/should be quoting. So under these conditions (fresh fully charged lithium pack with minimal sag), the motor output would be about 50/0.85 ~= 59 kW, or 59/47 * 100% ~= 125% of the peak power of the AC24LS drivetrain.



> I am looking for a system about 10KW above the AC-50/AC24ls so I can acheive <12sec 0-60 time in my car.


If Tom's figures are achievable and his extrapolations are correct (they seem OK to me), it looks like the AC50 with a good lithium pack would give you what you are looking for.

The 15% drivetrain loss (very roughly 10% gearbox and 5% diff) seem to work out with the assumption of a motor power factor of 0.87. Remember that the 550 A per phase is total current - it's reactive current for the field, vectorially added to real current that is converted to mechanical power.

550 A * (111/1.414 rounded down a bit=77) * sqrt(3) * 0.87 ~= 64 kW electrical. The efficiency of the controller doesn't come into this, it just causes more current from the pack to achieve the 550 total RMS output current. Using a motor efficiency of 0.91 and transmission efficiency of 0.85, the power at the wheels would be 64 * 0.91 * 0.85 = 49.5 kW.

I admit I picked the motor efficiency a bit to make the numbers come out close, and there is plenty of opportunity to add or subtract efficiency for the motor, gearbox, and diff, and also to choose a different power factor. However, these are all reasonable figures, so I believe that this somewhat validates the various assumptions made.

The dynamometer output, albeit at a different electrical input, is IMO the definitive result. Of course, it's from the manufacturer or retailer, so we have to assume that they didn't fiddle the results.

The other question is whether the controller can be cooled enough to make it produce this power for usable quantities of time. The EVTV Friday Show for 19th March (near the end) showed Jack Rickard's solution to this, where he bolts on a "chiller plate" that is liquid cooled.


----------



## pm_dawn (Sep 14, 2009)

jrickard said:


> ......
> 
> THIS from your highly vaunted Swedish Engineers and Mr. Victor Tikhonov.
> 
> ...


I got the impression you liked the SKF bearings ? 
But maybe you really mean the Swiss Engineers at Mes-Dea ? 
I can totally understand that you have problem with these countries sounding so alike and also having to deal with parts from both of the countries at the same time. To me it would be like have to deal with companies in both Minnesota and Missouri at the same time. 

OT here:
Anyway I really like that you have fried them cables for the Cellog and showed us how not to do. But I cannot see any real difference from the measuring terminals that you have in the speedster. There you have pretty much all the packs leads in about 3". But i would also suggest the fuse solution. I guess you will never use those Cellog8s any more now since they are really such a piece of crap that never should have been used in the first place. 

Btw have you dug into the Elcon charger CANbus talk any ?
I'm tempted to buy one of the small ones (1.5kw) and start prototyping with the Arduino.

Best Regards
/Per Eklund
Sweden - think boring Volvo cars and ABBA.


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## tomofreno (Mar 3, 2009)

> So this is mechanical power at the wheel, which is about 15% more than mechanical power output from the motor


 Not sure why you say this is mechanical power at the wheels Coulomb, since it is estimated from motor torque and angular velocity. Also, I think you meant "less" not "more" ie, motor shaft power must be more than power delivered to the wheels. The same extrapolation I used in the link you gave would give about 90 lb-ft torque with 550A out to a bit over 4200 rpm, a bit over 53kW or around 70 HP, if you could get 120V including sag. To me, the AC50 needs a controller capable of about 750A and 150V. The higher current might give around 122 lb-ft (~165 N-m) torque max, all other things equal (not sure they would be), and the higher voltage might permit that full torque out to around 5300 rpm (using the same extrapolation). That would give peak power of maybe 90kW or about 120 HP. That would make a small car zip, and would be sufficient for everyday driving for something on the order of 3000 lb finished ev weight I would think. I think the AC50 could handle this power, but may well need a blower to help cool it for over 20 HP or so continuous in warmer weather.


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## Guest (Mar 29, 2010)

pm_dawn said:


> I got the impression you liked the SKF bearings ?
> But maybe you really mean the Swiss Engineers at Mes-Dea ?
> I can totally understand that you have problem with these countries sounding so alike and also having to deal with parts from both of the countries at the same time. To me it would be like have to deal with companies in both Minnesota and Missouri at the same time.
> 
> ...


Point taken. We haven't really had problems with the Speedster wiring largely because we used a large, kind of high quality bakelite terminal strip that has vertical seperators between each wire. It is relatively huge to the little plastic molex connectors on the Cell Log 8S. It can take much more heat if one of the connections does become loose. It's large enough that I would probably notice. But none of that is any guarantee.

Similarly I have built one massive short into the Mini Cooper. But again, they terminate in MILSPEC Amphenol metal connectors with 18 pins on each connector and shrink tube over each soldered connection. No guarantee that I haven't built a bomb there as well. All I really have to do is go back and install 112 inline fuses. I just may but I dread it.

Measuring voltage shouldn't draw ANY current. A 1/2 amp fuse would be overkill.

Jack


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## Guest (Mar 29, 2010)

Mesuge said:


> Jack, that's the very power envelope many wanted to cover here. But that's most likely not doable with forklift low voltage AC drivetrain material, nowadays everybody incl. OEM hybrids adopted high voltage at least 400-500VDC and more, that's because big industrial IGBTs are ready, and primarily because running high current cabling is just problematic (weight, EMR, BMS, efficiency, safety, ..)
> 
> Btw. allow for a little off topic detour here, I'm wondering why did you opt for Beck-Chamonix (the bigger company factor?) for your Speedster donor over say Thunder-Ranch's (or are there any other serious manufs. left besides these two?) Speedsters are seductive timeless piece of machinery, however, I'd not want to be in a crash situation in them even at limited speed. I guess, it is quite similar to motorcycles, you can be easily maimed or killed in a trivial accident, but the thrills cruising it are enormous. Too bad the best engineering&quality&safety kit company out there (FFR) only focuses on "dull" Cobras (Mk4 improved that though) and unaerodynamic GTM, oh the pandora box of suitable donors just cracked open, sorry guys, back on the main topic shortly:
> 
> ...


I am very enamored of the Beck/Chamonix for a couple of reasons. First, these guys are renowned for good product, good support, and making delivery times. They just have a fantastic reputation and we've had a fantastic experience with them. Recall that we did NOT buy our first roller from them. We bought a used car with 1100 mlies on it they had not sold us. They bent over backwards for us anyway at every step and even tracked down some hard to find headlight grills and a steering wheel that fits a very non-standard Brazillian steering column.

Second,MOST all of the other replica builders use VW pans. This restricts footroom in the cockpit. But it's much more than that. The Beck features a 3 inch tubular steel chassis that really has nothing to do with a VW or Porsche. IT's VERY stiff and VERY strong. The Fiberglass body of course lightens the vehicle, but everybody uses a fiberglass body.

As to quality, the paint finish isn't perfect. You would have to hand sand it about 100 times and then paint it to suit me. We could do that. But it's probably good enough.

Intermeccanica probably does a higher fit and finish standard and things like rollup windows, rack and pinion steering, etc. I talked with Henry a bit. They do 12 cars a year. It is VERY low volume. You typically have to wait 3-4 months on your build. He's just not set up for this.

Beck moved into a larger facility about simultaneously to the financial crash. They have a good bit excess capacity. They need to fill it. I think I can design a turnkey electric they can offer for under $60K. That might help fill it. We get a lot of inquiries about buying my car. I don't want to sell it. And I don't want to be in the car business. This will give us a good tight answer to that question. Here's a phone number. Call them and speak in decimal and you can have one.

The Teslas are now over $150K. This is a sports car for less than half of that. It's fun to drive. And for me personally I'd stand on the hood of a Tesla to get a better look at a Porsche 356. I realize that's sort of a personal preference based on age. But there you go. It won't do 244 miles, nor will it do a 4 second 0-60. But its a blast to drive.

Jack Rickard


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## Coulomb (Apr 22, 2009)

tomofreno said:


> Not sure why you say this is mechanical power at the wheels Coulomb, since it is estimated from motor torque and angular velocity.


Oh, woops. I'm used to thinking of a dynamometer output as from a complete vehicle, but since this was a motor manufacturer, then it's likely they tested a motor by itself, and the toruqe as you say is at the motor shaft.

So that means that my calculations have a ~ 15% error somewhere, making them useless. Sorry!



> Also, I think you meant "less" not "more" ie, motor shaft power must be more than power delivered to the wheels.


Yes, another slip-up.


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## etischer (Jun 16, 2008)

pm_dawn said:


> OT here:
> Anyway I really like that you have fried them cables for the Cellog and showed us how not to do. I guess you will never use those Cellog8s any more now since they are really such a piece of crap that never should have been used in the first place.


Is there a link to the problem with the Cell-log? What happened?


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Seems that some of the wires from the cells shorted out to each other and started melting. It may have been in the connector. Fusing each lead is probably a good idea. So it's not really the Celllog8 that's at fault, just the necessity of bringing all the cells that close together in the wiring plug, I guess. It's in the last video segment on his youtube channel, full video on his homepage, www.evtv.me. Doesnt' really show anything up close.


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## novatin (Mar 30, 2010)

"For those of you with a European University Engineering degree, a Couple is a system of forces with a resultant (a.k.a. net, or sum) moment but no resultant force. Another term for a couple is a pure moment. Read up on it. "


Thank you for the lesson Jack.
From a Spanish Student of engineering.

Dear CroDriver, I would like to know more about your system if It is posible.

ThankYou.


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## CroDriver (Jan 8, 2009)

novatin said:


> Dear CroDriver, I would like to know more about your system if It is posible.
> 
> ThankYou.


Hi Novatin.

Have you read all my posts in this topic? I have posted specification and graphs. There is not much more to report right now.

The first unit should be installed in a car by the end of May. 

The prototype production will start next week.


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## Matthijs (Jun 19, 2009)

CroDriver said:


> Hi Novatin.
> 
> Have you read all my posts in this topic? I have posted specification and graphs. There is not much more to report right now.
> 
> ...


And you call that not much to report?  I missed that part I guess. Did you went trough with it despite the high prototype cost? Or did you manage to negotiate a reasonable unit cost? Or did you work out one of the other possibilities and take part of the production/development elsewhere or into your own hands? Do you still think it is possible to get a breakthrough on price and surprise us? Sorry for all these questions but it's a pretty exciting time for the AC biz if you can pull it off.


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## novatin (Mar 30, 2010)

CroDriver said:


> Hi Novatin.
> 
> Have you read all my posts in this topic? I have posted specification and graphs. There is not much more to report right now.
> 
> ...


Hi CroDriver;

May be We (the department group I work with) can help with the software for the inverter for example.

My university is in: Lat: 43.2635. Long: -2.94854


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## CroDriver (Jan 8, 2009)

Matthijs said:


> And you call that not much to report?  I missed that part I guess. Did you went trough with it despite the high prototype cost? Or did you manage to negotiate a reasonable unit cost? Or did you work out one of the other possibilities and take part of the production/development elsewhere or into your own hands? Do you still think it is possible to get a breakthrough on price and surprise us? Sorry for all these questions but it's a pretty exciting time for the AC biz if you can pull it off.


No need to apologize 

We found a mid-term solution. Some parts will be made by the Germans, some parts by us. Everything will then be assembled here. The first units are still very expensive (about 25.000 Euro) but I don't offer them for other yet anyways. We have decided to use the high quality magnets and IGBTs and 0,2 mm lamination so the price is quite high. But this is prototyping which simply can't be cheap unless it's from China.

The main target is to bring the cost down to a 1/3 or 1/4 of the current price by the start of production AND maintaining the high quality.


----------



## CroDriver (Jan 8, 2009)

novatin said:


> Hi CroDriver;
> 
> May be We (the department group I work with) can help with the software for the inverter for example.
> 
> My university is in: Lat: 43.2635. Long: -2.94854


Wow, "only" 2000 km away from me 

I'll come back to you if we need help. 

Thanks for the offer.


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## Matthijs (Jun 19, 2009)

CroDriver said:


> No need to apologize
> 
> We found a mid-term solution. Some parts will be made by the Germans, some parts by us. Everything will then be assembled here. The first units are still very expensive (about 25.000 Euro) but I don't offer them for other yet anyways. We have decided to use the high quality magnets and IGBTs and 0,2 mm lamination so the price is quite high. But this is prototyping which simply can't be cheap unless it's from China.
> 
> The main target is to bring the cost down to a 1/3 or 1/4 of the current price by the start of production AND maintaining the high quality.


Wow that are very attractive prices if it can be done! I hope you will keep us in the loop a bit on the development of the units. I think that will also build a momentum for this package! Thanks for the update.


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## novatin (Mar 30, 2010)

CroDriver said:


> Wow, "only" 2000 km away from me
> 
> I'll come back to you if we need help.
> 
> Thanks for the offer.


There is no distance problem for writing some software.

And you can see, we are near the football field... 
A good place to visit  

Bye


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## eva-michael (Apr 13, 2010)

CroDriver said:


> It will be AWD but not two motors. Bowser, you should already know me good enough to know that I'll use four of these
> 
> I will release some prices in a few weeks.


That's really fantastic. Look forward to see more details.
Should be a super rocket!


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## DawidvC (Feb 14, 2010)

Thanks guys for bumping this thread again. I think a lot of us is watching what CroDriver is doing WRT that awesome motors.

Dawid


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## Jan (Oct 5, 2009)

Jack,

Can you give us an update on your MES-DEA issue? I understood from one of your last shows they called you, and haven't killed you yet. Are you friends again? 

And CroDriver,

Any news from your AC drive train?


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## Guest (May 1, 2010)

Jan said:


> Jack,
> 
> Can you give us an update on your MES-DEA issue? I understood from one of your last shows they called you, and haven't killed you yet. Are you friends again?
> 
> ...


Peter Knaupf, head of Cebi, had called to say he wanted to fix the problem and offered to pay the cost of machining the end plate. I told him I thought it was about $1000. I also told him I was more intewrested in a knowledgeable technical contact and he provided one.

We sent him the invoice, which turns out to have been a little over$500. He called to ask when we would be "removing the videos." I responded that we wouldn't be "removing" anything. We would note his action in the current video.

He went into a tirade and reneged on thew whole thing. He claims I lied to him about the machine cost (which I don't even quite understand.) We invoiced him for HALF the agree3d amount. As it turns out, his main button was to get the videos off the net. Last we talked, he was going to have Cebi's lawyer call me. Never heard from him.

The motor is actually working rather well so far. I did a 78 mile trip this week at 70 mph. Our water cooling system is working VERY well and at one point I was getting 372 amps out of the 300 amp controller. At 375 vcolts, we're averaging right around 1 AH per mile. 

The car is a delight. Very stable, very responsive. Great acceleration. Kind of hard to believe after all the drive train difficulties.

I can't quite get the max regen potentiometer to work. The TIMS600 documentation is vcery poor, and of course, we have no support again.

Jack Rickard


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## CroDriver (Jan 8, 2009)

Jan said:


> And CroDriver,
> 
> Any news from your AC drive train?


Hi Jan.

The first unit should be ready for installation by the end of this month.


----------



## corbin (Apr 6, 2010)

jrickard said:


> I can't quite get the max regen potentiometer to work. The TIMS600 documentation is vcery poor, and of course, we have no support again.
> 
> Jack Rickard


Hi Jack,
If you were to do it over again, what motor/controller would you choose? I'm trying to find something similar to what you used for your project, but the MES-DEA seems to be one of the only options. I'm also looking into a motor from EVE in Italy, but they seem to be relatively new. There don't seem to be too many AC options out there.

By the way, thanks for the videos! I'm looking forward to watching them and learning. They are an inspiration for problem solving.

corbin


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## Jan (Oct 5, 2009)

jrickard said:


> I can't quite get the max regen potentiometer to work. The TIMS600 documentation is vcery poor, and of course, we have no support again.


I've got a handbook in PDF of the TIM family: One third English, one third strange Italian kind of English, and one third Italian. I'm still busy translating it. In no hurry.

From the book:

Pin 10:

"The Regenerative enable signal is required to insert regenerative function when the throttle is set free or when you push the brake pedal. "

Pin 12, 26 and 40:

"It is possible limit the maximum regenerative produced from the induction motor by a linear potentiometer with value between 2Kohm and 5Kohm. Take attention to respect the polarity supply."

So I think the potmeter not applies regen force, but limits it. Just the oposite of what you should expect. Well, what I expected. 

Breaking should be done -according to my interpretation- by enabling pin 10 and turning the voltage on pin 12 slowly down, in stead of up.


----------



## Jan (Oct 5, 2009)

CroDriver said:


> Hi Jan.
> 
> The first unit should be ready for installation by the end of this month.


Thanks for the update Cro.


----------



## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

corbin said:


> There don't seem to be too many AC options out there.


I think for a similar price to the MES motor/controller you might get an AC 50 motor from HPEVS and have a higher voltage higher current custom controller built by http://www.rinehartmotion.com/
Something around 200 volts and 700 amps would be a really nice setup.


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## Coulomb (Apr 22, 2009)

I suppose I should mention one of the more recent choices: the Tritium Wavesculptor 200 controller, along with a 7.5 kW nominal copper rotor motor that they're testing at the moment. It may be able to be overclocked by 3x, so assuming a 3x peak torque and adequate cooling, this motor and controller would be good for roughly 67 kW peak. Or of course any AC motor (induction or PM AC) of your choice, at around 100 V nominal, or rewound to that voltage range. It's a 165 kW peak controller.

The controller has been mentioned in this thread.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Coulomb said:


> Or of course any AC motor (induction or PM AC) of your choice, at around 100 V nominal, or rewound to that voltage range. It's a 165 kW peak controller.


100 V nominal? Was that a typo? I thought they are running it at 360 nominal.


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## corbin (Apr 6, 2010)

JRP3 said:


> I think for a similar price to the MES motor/controller you might get an AC 50 motor from HPEVS and have a higher voltage higher current custom controller built by http://www.rinehartmotion.com/
> Something around 200 volts and 700 amps would be a really nice setup.


That's a new idea I hadn't thought of! Has anyone gone this approach before? 

How well do motors do when scaled up like this? 

Is there a way of predicting the kW they produce at given RPM with the higher voltage? (I can probably figure this out myself, so I'll loo into it today).

thanks,
corbin


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## corbin (Apr 6, 2010)

Coulomb said:


> I suppose I should mention one of the more recent choices: the Tritium Wavesculptor 200 controller, along with a 7.5 kW nominal copper rotor motor that they're testing at the moment. It may be able to be overclocked by 3x, so assuming a 3x peak torque and adequate cooling, this motor and controller would be good for roughly 67 kW peak. Or of course any AC motor (induction or PM AC) of your choice, at around 100 V nominal, or rewound to that voltage range. It's a 165 kW peak controller.
> 
> The controller has been mentioned in this thread.


Thanks -- I have already contacted Tritium and got a quote for the controller they produce. I thought it was best to match a controller with the motor; but if not, I might be able to get their controller and a more powerful EVE motor and go with that route. 

This all seems like new territory for home built EVs, and might be tricky for my first conversion.

corbin


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

You might do what I did, which was to get the HPEVS motor with Curtis controller to start, and then sometime in the future grab a more powerful controller if one becomes available, or have one built. Frankly I'm fairly happy with my setup now and probably would upgrade my pack before I worried about the controller since I'm not hitting it's limits and the SE100 cells I'm using sag quite a bit if I'm pulling 300+ amps. If I went to 200Ah cells or a higher C rated cell I'd hold my voltage longer. I'm going to add one more cell to the pack for 37 total, 122V nominal, just to keep my voltage a little higher under load.


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## Coulomb (Apr 22, 2009)

JRP3 said:


> 100 V nominal? Was that a typo?


No, around 100 V nominal for a 4-pole industrial AC motor is ideal with about a 425 VDC pack (assuming you're going for extreme performance; lesser voltages will obviously work with lesser multiplication factors). 425 VDC input translates to about 300 VAC output.

A 4-pole 50 Hz nominal motor runs a little under 1500 RPM; if you apply 3x the frequency and voltage, that triples the power available for short periods of time. 3x a little under 1500 RPM is a little under 4500 RPM, which is a reasonable match for most drivetrains. A 60 Hz nominal motor is similar, but use 1800 and 5400 in place of 1500 and 4500.

There is the usual 2.6x - 4x breakdown torque verses nominal torque, so that's 6.5 to 10 times the nominal power (you don't want to get too close to breakdown torque, say 85%) available as peak power.

So for AC motors and controllers in vehicles, "matching" a motor and controller voltage doesn't mean finding a motor that has the same nominal voltage as the controller's output. It's because a vehicle's power needs are very uneven; for cruising and low speed driving you need relatively little power, while for spirited acceleration and good hill climbing performance you need a lot more power, but for short periods of time. So to get the most out of your investment in motor copper and controller silicon, you want something like a 2:1 or 3:1 ratio (with the controller output being the higher voltage, of course).

Azure Dynamics motors have been speculated to be something like 80 VAC nominal industrial motors, so this isn't really new.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

I see what you're saying. Thanks.


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## yarross (Jan 7, 2009)

Coulomb said:


> So for AC motors and controllers in vehicles, "matching" a motor and controller voltage doesn't mean finding a motor that has the same nominal voltage as the controller's output.


Good explanation. I would supplement it with remark that even having motor rewound for low voltage under 100V, it still requires hi-class electrical insulation as well as 0.4kV motors fed from VFD, because low RMS volts don't mean low peak voltage.


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## Olaf-Lampe (Feb 24, 2010)

This excessive overvolting is only possible with underrated industrial motors ( 4 pole ideally ) and there is less potential in the already EV-rated motors, am I right?
-Olaf


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## Coulomb (Apr 22, 2009)

Olaf-Lampe said:


> This excessive overvolting is only possible with underrated industrial motors ( 4 pole ideally ) and there is less potential in the already EV-rated motors, am I right?


Essentially, yes. Industrial motors aren't really underrated for their intended application, running 24/7 pumping water or whatever they do. Also, they are designed to run on relatively low frequency mains power, and with 4-pole and 2-pole motors being the norm, their nominal power is at a speed which is 1/4 to 1/2 of their comfortable maximum speed. More speed for the same torque means more power.

The other thing is that our application of electric vehicles with their peaky power demands is very different to the typical industrial application.

As for "EV-rated" motors, or perhaps I'd say more "made for EV" motors, they won't benefit from overvolting because they almost certainly already have been! Consider say an AC55 motor, which is 78 kW peak and 35 kW continuous. The peak to continuous ratio is rather low at 78/35 ~= 2.2, suggesting that it is overvoltaged.

Its nominal speed is 2500 RPM, which is unusual for an industrial motor. It's possibly four pole, meaning that at 50 Hz, it would be rated at around 1500 RPM, so only 1500/2500 * 35 = 21 kW. Possibly it is a bog standard 22 kW (at 50 Hz) industrial machine, wound for a low voltage, so that even with 312 VDC, say 220 VAC, it is running at 2500/1500 = 167% of nominal speed. So it might be wound for ~ 128VAC nominal. Considering IGBT drops and battery sag, it might be more like 120 VAC.

BTW, I just pulled some of those numbers from a quick web search. I seem to recall 59 kW peak for the AC55. So the details may not be totally accurate. Or maybe they've updated their motor. I believe that the basic principle is valid, however.


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## Coulomb (Apr 22, 2009)

yarross said:


> I would supplement it with remark that even having motor rewound for low voltage under 100V, it still requires hi-class electrical insulation as well as 0.4kV motors fed from VFD, because low RMS volts don't mean low peak voltage.


Certainly. This "trick" of getting more power from a motor relies on being able to increase two "across" variables: speed and voltage (which of course are intimately related in any motor, like current and torque). You also need to increase frequency, which is easy electrically, but has its own problems for motors, and is largely ignored by my simplistic analysis here. Most motors can handle 720 VAC terminal to terminal (415 V across the windings, probably up to 480 V) and 4500-6000 RPM without breakdown. By arranging for the relatively low nominal speed of the motor to be at a lower voltage, it becomes possible to increase the voltage and the speed to get the higher power.

That requires fewer turns of thicker copper wire. But as you state, it's important that they don't use lower voltage insulation, assuming that the 100 V across the windings, or at most 173 V terminal to terminal if wired in star/Y, is all that the motor will see. But just as it would be silly and non-standard to use bearings that won't spin safely at 4500 RPM, it would be silly and non-standard to use insulation that won't withstand 720+ VAC. I would think that a manufacturer or rewinder just wouldn't bother stocking such inferior bearings or wire with such inferior insulation.

However, if you do get a motor rewound for lower voltage, it would probably be a good idea to specify that regular, high voltage insulation is to be used.

Edit: I meant to say that power is the product of an "across" variable (like voltage, rotational speed, linear speed, pressure, MMF) and a "through" variable (like current, torque, force, flow rate, flux) respectively. See for example http://www.mathworks.com/access/helpdesk/help/toolbox/physmod/simscape/ug/bq89sba-1.html.


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## JRoque (Mar 9, 2010)

> I meant to say that power is the product of an "across" variable (like voltage, rotational speed, linear speed, pressure, MMF) and a "through" variable (like current, torque, force, flow rate, flux) respectively. See for example http://www.mathworks.com/access/help...bq89sba-1.html.


Whew! I'm glad you clarified that because I got everything else you were saying except THAT part  Freaking magnetics have always been voodoo to me. Thanks for sticking around, Coulumb, and break this stuff down for us the flux challenged.

So I take it that our motors should be rated for low voltage and low speed (but with higher spec'd insulation) so we can "overclock" both of these. But another thing to keep in mind is that other components mated to the motor must be rated for the higher output. There's so much speed and torque you can put into a standard transmission (gearbox) before things start flying apart. With this in mind, I chose my motor (with your help, thanks!) to peak at it's rated 3600 RPM. I figured by the time I hit the motor's 2x or 3x torque output, I should be red-lining the transmission which is about what my ICE does now.

JR


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## subras3d (May 6, 2010)

Congrats 

Can I get AC Hub Motors in the range of 1 KW to 5 KW ?
I am from Chennai India


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## Bowser330 (Jun 15, 2008)

subras3d said:


> Congrats
> 
> Can I get AC Hub Motors in the range of 1 KW to 5 KW ?
> I am from Chennai India


You can get even better...how about 10kw continuous and 30kw peak.

http://www.ev-propulsion.com/motorcycle-hub-motors.html


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## subras3d (May 6, 2010)

Hello !
Thanks for the links
I will study it and come back to you 
Sincerely yours

Ramalingam K S


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## subras3d (May 6, 2010)

*Re: High performance hub motor and controller*

Hello !

Can I get more techno-commercial details on the 10 KW Motor along with the recommendations for batterries and controllers ?


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## TomA (Mar 26, 2009)

*Re: High performance hub motor and controller*



subras3d said:


> Hello !
> 
> Can I get more techno-commercial details on the 10 KW Motor along with the recommendations for batterries and controllers ?


You can see the whole thread of the development and trials of the EnerTrac motorcycle-class hub motor on Endless Sphere:

http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=7718

That's where Mark did most of his communicating during development, and its the best place for information on this motor even today. Its a long read, but the story is pretty complete and there's a ton of useful information there about EnerTrac motors and exactly the things you are asking about...

TomA


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## Bowser330 (Jun 15, 2008)

good find Tom


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

*Re: High performance hub motor and controller*



subras3d said:


> Hello !
> 
> Can I get more techno-commercial details on the 10 KW Motor along with the recommendations for batterries and controllers ?


You should probably start a separate thread with the details of your project.


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## Coulomb (Apr 22, 2009)

Coulomb said:


> So for AC motors and controllers in vehicles, "matching" a motor and controller voltage doesn't mean finding a motor that has the same nominal voltage as the controller's output. ... So to get the most out of your investment in motor copper and controller silicon, you want something like a 2:1 or 3:1 ratio (with the controller output being the higher voltage, of course).


I should point out that this assumes that a gearbox is present. For direct drive, lowering the motor voltage lowers the amount of peak torque, assuming (as would commonly but not always be the case) your controller current limit is the limiting factor affecting peak torque. That's because by lowering the voltage for the same torque and speed, you are increasing the current for the same torque and speed, so your controller needs to output more current for the same torque at takeoff, gutter climbing, and heavy hill climbing.

For direct drive, you want to make sure that you are getting the maximum possible torque from the controller at low speed. At higher speed, torque will be less, as it would have been through a gearbox, but it's a question of whether you have enough torque at higher speeds to be useful. Peak torque (for reasons that I don't fully understand) will approximately decrease with the square of the speed above base speed. So at triple the base speed, you will have around a ninth of the peak torque.


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## tomofreno (Mar 3, 2009)

Hey Cro, are you familiar with these EVE motors:
http://www.electro-vehicles.eu/shop/details.asp?ProdId=EVE02
Know anyone using one? Quality/reliability? Support from this dealer? Thanks.


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## corbin (Apr 6, 2010)

tomofreno said:


> Hey Cro, are you familiar with these EVE motors:
> http://www.electro-vehicles.eu/shop/details.asp?ProdId=EVE02
> Know anyone using one? Quality/reliability? Support from this dealer? Thanks.


Yup, I'm particularly interested in any informatino too. They also have an AC40 (liquid cooled) not listed on the site. Perf PDF at:

http://corbinstreehouse.com/misc/

corbin


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## LeftCoast (May 19, 2010)

jrickard said:


> Peter Knaupf, head of Cebi, had called to say he wanted to fix the problem and offered to pay the cost of machining the end plate. I told him I thought it was about $1000. I also told him I was more intewrested in a knowledgeable technical contact and he provided one.
> 
> We sent him the invoice, which turns out to have been a little over$500. He called to ask when we would be "removing the videos." I responded that we wouldn't be "removing" anything. We would note his action in the current video.
> 
> ...


And you wonder why so many motor and controller manufacturers won't deal with conversion projects or retail sales. 

The company clearly made some mistakes, shipped a product with inadequate documentation and has some "issues" with its American distributor. However when the manufacturer contacted you and made a good faith effort to rectify the problems, offered to split the cost of fabricating a new end plate you refuse to remove your damaging videos. Of course he was motivated to have the video removed! Wouldn't you be? 

Your video slanders his company and makes racist or at the very least derogatory remarks about Europeans in general (which IMO makes you, not Europeans or anyone else look bad). 

Cebi has no legal obligation to reimburse you for complications arising from installation of their motor in a custom, prototype vehicle - even if your "error" was a result of inadequate documentation and application of what appeared to common practice in the "industry" at the time. It appears to me that the offer to compensate you for your costs of fabricating a new end plate was made in good faith with an eye to clearing up the PR issue that your video caused for the company. Where is the motivation for the company to do anything if your hour long diatribe denigrating their product, service, education, expertise, ethnicity and competence remains on the Internet?

There are so very few manufactures of advanced motors, batteries, controllers, etc. who are willing to deal directly with end users and converters that as a community we should be very careful about abusing the few who remain - even if their products are overpriced and lack documentation.


BTW - in your video you said the new end plate cost $350 but you gave Peter an invoice for $1000. Which is the correct cost?


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## TomA (Mar 26, 2009)

LeftCoast:

Since your first post in this forum is to take issue with Jack's experience and opinion, and he probably hasn't the time or interest in answering you, let me give it a try as a member of the community...



LeftCoast said:


> And you wonder why so many motor and controller manufacturers won't deal with conversion projects or retail sales.


You're making a point you probably aren't trying to make, which is that delivering actual products to users in the field demands a level of support, product development maturity and and corporate resource commitment that "so many motor and controller manufacturers" can't or won't provide. That's not Jack or any other customer's fault. Its a reality of the new technology adoption curve, corporate finance and marketing. So I guess you're right, but don't make that the fault of people who are willing to pay many times the commodity value of essentially custom made components only to discover they are in fact poorly designed and supported.



> The company clearly made some mistakes, shipped a product with inadequate documentation and has some "issues" with its American distributor.


I think that says it all right there. If this "company" was in the car business, it would be Yugo, or maybe Maserati. Be careful apologizing for what you just described.


> However when the manufacturer contacted you and made a good faith effort to rectify the problems, offered to split the cost of fabricating a new end plate you refuse to remove your damaging videos. Of course he was motivated to have the video removed! Wouldn't you be?


Bad answer. The company should be motivated by the failure of the product and its distributor, not the PR disaster that results because the customer has a TV show. By your logic, this manufacturer has no motivation to fix a problem for a customer who tells no one else about it. That's not what I want in a vendor, and I'm glad to know it.


> Your video slanders his company...


Wrong. Telling the truth is an absolute defense to a slander allegation, and I think Jack has documented his claims pretty well.


> Cebi has no legal obligation to reimburse you for complications arising from installation of their motor in a custom, prototype vehicle - even if your "error" was a result of inadequate documentation and application of what appeared to common practice in the "industry" at the time. It appears to me that the offer to compensate you for your costs of fabricating a new end plate was made in good faith with an eye to clearing up the PR issue that your video caused for the company. Where is the motivation for the company to do anything if your hour long diatribe denigrating their product, service, education, expertise, ethnicity and competence remains on the Internet?


You apparently don't accept that there is any design problem with the bell on this motor. Worse, you also have the warranty issue balled up with the PR problem. It would be very interesting, indeed, to pursue contract and consumer protection claims against the distributor and manufacturer of this product, but as Jack and any attorney would surely know, that game isn't worth the candle. 

Fortunately, this problem hasn't killed Jack's project. That outcome is much more likely to befall somebody who could barely afford to buy something like this, only to have it be unworkable, poorly documented, unsupported in any meaningful way and ultimately, unreturnable. That is the sad reality of being an early adopter. Jack is unusual in that he isn't slowed much by those obstacles, and he's willing and able to point them out for the rest of us. If that isn't important to you, I have to wonder what your participation is this community is all about...


> There are so very few manufactures of advanced motors, batteries, controllers, etc. who are willing to deal directly with end users and converters that as a community we should be very careful about abusing the few who remain - even if their products are overpriced and lack documentation.


I completely disagree. Every time a customer coddles a bad vendor, it hurts all those good vendors who are working hard and well to support this community. Moreover, what Jack is doing is such a valuable service to the EV community that it doesn't bother me in the least if he is "scaring" manufacturers away from selling to us. I really don't want to buy anything from a company that isn't both feet into supporting my business, anyway. This is the whole point of listservs, forums and clubs, too- to share information and sort out the good products and vendors. Jack is just giving that process depth (because he can afford to try one of everything,) and reach (because he's distributing his carefully collected data worldwide.) 

If you're against that you're either a shill for some vendor he's pissed off, or you aren't terribly serious about spending your own money on these products, or you're hung up on his style or his wealth, or for some other reason you just don't get it. 

Try that on...

TomA


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## wenowhavepower (Dec 24, 2008)

Wow couldn't have replied better!

Well said 110%!


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

An additional comment:


LeftCoast said:


> Cebi has no legal obligation to reimburse you for complications arising from installation of their motor in a custom, prototype vehicle - even if your "error" was a result of inadequate documentation and application of what appeared to common practice in the "industry" at the time.


They may not have a legal obligation, but common sense, and good business practice, would dictate that a non-standard design ought to be clearly labeled as such, or the company can expect problems such as this. Luckily this happened to someone with a public voice and the resources to fix the problem despite the lack of support from distributer and company. Cebi could have gone forward and fixed the problem without demanding a rewrite of history, chalking it up to poor communication, and could have come out looking ok. The threats that they wouldn't do anything unless the original videos were removed makes them look even worse.


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## Guest (May 20, 2010)

Thank you. The only thing I might add is that OEM sales of a motor and controller of this type would probably be in the $4000 range. We paid $13,000. It was my understanding that the eggregious premium in this case is because they are not setup to support end users. I see this repeated a lot. Product support is certainly an expense and has to be figured in. In this case, we hardly got our money's worth. 

It was 4 weeks to get an answer. The answer is that it was our fault, without any specifics as to what we might have done differently. The price for a replacement end plate was a ridiculous $785 for an eggshell cheap cast aluminum plate they already have in stock. We had one custom machined from billet aluminum for $500. 

But the worst part, is they could not even give us an ESTIMATED date of delivery on the replacement plate. So what happened to the $9000 premium we paid?

This motor is overpriced by at least double. THere IS no support. Victor is a moron. (We've become a magnet for "Victor stories" coming at us from all over the planet. We aren't even a major league loser in this.) 

The design and the documentation are childish.

All that said, I have to say I really like this motor. It is very smooth, and quite powerful. It's a great match for this car and it drives extremely well. The controller is a little quirky. And we're gradually "guessing" our way through the many unlabeled "parameters". 

But I can't recommend it. We have more invested in adapters and couplers and machined plates than most people do in the drive train. And it's been a challenge at every step. It's just not a good solution for an EV. And MES-DEA just clearly can't ever be a player, not for OEM's, and not for anybody else.

For the moment, I see no viable offerings in the 150kw-200kw AC induction or PM arena. Without one, larger vehicles are simply not on the table. For smaller vehicles, we're seeing good things from this Curtis 1238 and AC-50 combo.

I have to say also. The preliminary data from the Mini do not support the concept of regenerative braking as a necessity. We're just not seeing much from this. I plan on mapping out a drive route and actually doing an 80 mile drive or so both ways (I can turn it off with a dash switch.) The only reason we're staying with it is that it is the power in our power brakes. I can adjust the feel and we use it mostly in braking. We did not provide vacuum to our power brakes, so without the regen, the braking is there, but it is a little manly. You kind of have to stand on them.

A guy kind of convinced me he was seeing 20% range addition from regen. I was hoping for 8%. Now that I think about it, his entire data set was a RAV=4 and he can't actually compare it without regen, so I have no idea how he is deriving his data. But there is no 20% additional range on the Mini. I'll have to set up a route and run it a couple of times. But I would be surprised if it is 6% at this point. 

So the series DC solution is not dead at this point. A Netgain 11HV in a Silverado might be a player yet. 

Jack Rickard


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

I think regen is heavily dependent on driving style and conditions. I routinely see 140 amps of regen when going down hills where I would otherwise be using the brakes to maintain speed or slow down. Around here I'm either going up or downhill so regen certainly gives me something worthwhile, especially since I've turned it up a bit higher. Regarding the RAV4EV, I thought regen had different settings, including off?


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## LeftCoast (May 19, 2010)

jrickard said:


> Thank you. The only thing I might add is that OEM sales of a motor and controller of this type would probably be in the $4000 range. We paid $13,000. It was my understanding that the eggregious premium in this case is because they are not setup to support end users. I see this repeated a lot. Product support is certainly an expense and has to be figured in. In this case, we hardly got our money's worth.
> 
> It was 4 weeks to get an answer. The answer is that it was our fault, without any specifics as to what we might have done differently. The price for a replacement end plate was a ridiculous $785 for an eggshell cheap cast aluminum plate they already have in stock. We had one custom machined from billet aluminum for $500.
> 
> Jack Rickard



First of all, I'm not a shill for any vendor, nor am I European (at least not since the potato famine). I'm just an average guy researching a conversion project (BMW 325) who is frustrated in hearing that if you want high performance, the people that have the technology won't sell to the people who want the technology.

I'm not denying that you got crap service and the service you provide in documenting your experience with conversion is invaluable. In this case, the manufacturer is clearly at fault for providing an end plate that is inadequate for mounting purposes without clearly pointing this out. They should also be more careful in selecting channel partners who lack the expertise and personality to support their products.


My experience in business is that most often to get something you've got give something. It would have cost you nothing other than ego to remove or edit the video. So in the end, what is Cebi going to take away from this ordeal? *Not* that their North American distributor is an idiot; *not* that their product documentation is inadequate; *not* that their design infers that the cast aluminum end plate can be used as a motor mount when it can't, but that it is not worth the hassle of supporting low volume sales to end users. I'm not saying its right, but everyone rationalizes their own faults but can't get over others'.

It is also my experience that two of my closest business relationships started out as abysmal failures - in one case it was my fault and in the other it was a client's fault. But the process of resolving the dispute forged a better relationship that in one case goes back 15 years now. Clearly in your case there is no sense in any further dealings with Victor. However with the manufacturer, there is no telling what you might have gotten if you had simply stroked their egos a bit.

BTW - that is now the third "cost" for fabricating a new end plate that you have quoted. First, on your video you said $370. Then you apparently told him over the phone it was "about $1000", then sent him an invoice for $500. And you're confused that he didn't believe you?


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## Guest (May 20, 2010)

LeftCoast said:


> First of all, I'm not a shill for any vendor, nor am I European (at least not since the potato famine). I'm just an average guy researching a conversion project (BMW 325) who is frustrated in hearing that if you want high performance, the people that have the technology won't sell to the people who want the technology.
> 
> I'm not denying that you got crap service and the service you provide in documenting your experience with conversion is invaluable. In this case, the manufacturer is clearly at fault for providing an end plate that is inadequate for mounting purposes without clearly pointing this out. They should also be more careful in selecting channel partners who lack the expertise and personality to support their products.
> 
> ...


Your muddled thinking simply wanders around almost ALL of the points in this. 

First, we don't remove videos. All of them are posted, with all the mistakes, and remain online for anyone to view at any time. We're not going to revise history to stroke anyone. We offered to note the change in attitude and the resolution. The demand to remove prior videos is ridiculous. There was nothing untrue or bearing correction involved.

Second there seems to be some impllication in your mind that it is ok for the plate to not bear mounting, and that somehow there is something we missed in mounting it. The ONLY implication that you should not mount this motor by the factory end plate came from, and comes from ME. The only sheet we received with the motor clearly DEPICTS it mounted from this 1/8th inch thick cast aluminum plate. There wasn't any mistake. They noted we probably didn't have it supported from the OTHER end. But they had never discussed mounting from the other end, never requested any photos of that, and indeed we HAD supported it from the back end. They just assumed we hadn't in responding in the best way they knew how to make us go away at no further expense to themselves.

But I'm amazed by how cleverly you "busted me" on the cost of the end plate. You must be REALLY smart from all that typing to have so cunningly picked up on that when everyone else clearly missed it. Man, that's impressive.

Of course, when we asked Lucien to do it, he was quite flattered and estimated it at $370. On completion, he was embarassed it had taken so long, and was determined to honor his original pricing. I looked at the workmanship and what was involved and told Brain, look this guy bailed us out, it was custom work and who knew what all it was going to involve, send him $1000. Peter Knaupf of course wanted an invoice. When Brain dug it out it was $500. He said Lucien wouldn't take the grand and they worked it out.

In case you missed something here entreprenurial business genius, THAT is how you develop relationships. Business isn't difficult at all between people that have a little faith the other guy isn't trying to screw them into the floor for the last quarter in the carpet. Shit happens. Not everything goes to plan. People make mistakes. We worked it out. Lucien now knows I'm not going to take advantage of him and he'll have to eat it if he gets into something a little beyond what he thought. Had I not done that, next time he'd just put more into the original estimate to cover his ass.

I handed the guy a check for $1000. He handed it back. It wasn't THAT big an overage Jack. Let's call it $500. Now I know when Lucien does need a make good, it's a cost covering make good, not a "he's got it and I'd like to have it" make good.

Contrast this with Peter Knaupf, ostensibly the head man at a large technology enterprise. He accused me of lying to him because I told him $1000 and sent him an invoice for $500. I wish everyone would lie to me this way. I could have sent him an invoice for any number I wanted. On pulling the paper, that was our actual cost. This global management genius couldn't work it out. And you're pretty much at his level, and in his camp.

(continued)


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## Guest (May 20, 2010)

The reason the parts are unavailable to you sport is that they're mostly unavailable and mostly air. I know dozens of people from the bubble with LOTS of money. One thing all of them have in common is none of them want ANY employees. As a result, our tech sector is devolving into Intellectual Property Development Companies. They have no intention of manufacturing anything. They have no intention of really developing anything. They prototype a few devices with a team of four or five guys. They pick a couple of inquiries for some pilot projects they can work with to field test,a nd then they paint glowing accounts of all they imagine it did on their web site. Their real work is powerpoint presentations. They desperately want an Ovonics style buyout from an OEM. THey have no intention of selling PRODUCT to OEMs. They want to sell IP to OEMS. 

The idea of scaling up manufacturing to actually build the device was never in the cards. And the concept of providing product support is ludicrous. Basically, there is no product. If you call a UQM or a Raiser or someone like that, they just give you the "go away" price and 99%of the time, you go away. If you persist, sure. They'll build you a custom motor and controller, an almost entirely unproven one by the way, that's worth $4000, for $35,000. But it will takes weeks or months and they really don't want to do it after cashing your sucker check. They're hand building them.

There are manufacturers with more mundane products, chargers and the like, that again eschew the end user market because of the product support costs. This is usually a matter of managing growth and scaling up. After a little bit of actually selling to OEM's, the higher margin end user sales actually start to look attractive. But getting there is a bit daunting. And yeah, you kind of have to throw your pricing out the window and start over. That rarely means 4x. But product support is significant. 

Your gross simple minded assessment is if I didn't "tell on them" they would sell to you. It is MUCH more complicated than that. And I know a WHOLE lot more about it than I really want to. It all points to an unnerving realization that I need to learn Mandarin. But since it is broadly a felony to employ people in the U.S., that's pretty much what is happening.

In the meantime, it all changes with a couple of really quite simple variables, and it's all laid out in its entirety in our very first video. Go watch it. 

We need 100,000 adult males to get a mad on about this oil thing and basically the coercion that has developed quite past coercion into abuse in an unholy alliance between OUR government, our car makers, and our oil companies. They can take this over by dumping the half empty beer can, turning off the TV, and going to the garage. 

Once there, they need to start rearranging the crap to make room for a car project. And they need to say in their minds that they're not going to be shoved around any more, it doesn't matter what it costs, they're going to build their own goddam car and they're going to drive it and they're not going to ask anyone for permission or if it's ok to do it.

Now believe it or not, that's precisely how, and precisely why, you HAVE an INternet to type yourself smart with. I'm not making this up, and I'm not confused, and I was there, and for the scant few that were in that revolution and also now finding this one, you know me and how all that came about.

And this one will work the same way. It starts with a few guys doing it, convinced that they're little, their ugly, and their mother dresses them funny and that there's nothing they can do to change the world but they CAN change their little part of it, if they can just get their Arduino to measure amp hours. 

A few others take an interest and start their own projects. And then a few more. And a few more. The growth curve is heartbreaking on both ends. It's very slow at the beginning and very unmanageable at the end. 

And you'll know you've won when General Motors or Toyota claims they're the one who did it, and 90% of the population don't know any better.

Yes, I know everything is measured in millions and billions and brazillions. I need a hundred thousand guys to move into their garages. At that point, you get any motor you want, but the problem is, by then you want three motors from now and it just isn't QUITE available yet.

The ultimate irony? Let's say I give you a complete UQM power plant for your BMW. And I build you one using a Netgain 11HV. You've got a terrifying surprise ahead of you sport. All the dreams of sugar plums you got from those press releases are bullshit. And if they were NOT, the difference in the car is not precisely what you think. In fact, you'd be shocked to feel the lack of difference. You cannot get more torque from an electric motor than a DC series motor they've been using in fork lifts for 75 years.

Unless you are wanting to drag race, if you want a sporty driving car that feels great to drive - even beyond what the law will allow, all the pieces are already there to do that. What you CAN'T have at this point is a quiet vacuum pump or an instrumentation system that doesn't look like it came free with a box of cereal - but for YOU a special deal at $499.

Like any frontier, this one has attracted a few charlatans and snake oil salesmen, fast buck artists who would take advantage of the better nature of those who share this mission, in order that they might have a few dollars on the side. One of my ancilliary tasks is to call em out, break their necks, and drop their bodies to the ground - ideally in one continous motion. I promise to be quick, thorough, and merciless in this distasteful but necessary act. I've done it before. Its not as much fun as I make it look, but I do know how to do it.

The other more complicated task is to try to bird dog the promising technology and products from the dead ends. More work, but I enjoy it more.

Get on point and on mission. Quit whining and get the Beemer project off the ground. You're thinking a lot and sweeping the garage too much. You're building a car, not a piano.

Jack Rickard


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Two quick points:
1. A $25K after rebate 100 mile range Nissan Leaf starts to make a lot of home conversions unnecessary, unless you really want to convert a specific vehicle.

2. My relatively inexpensive Thomas vacuum pump mounted on a piece of foam in the rear corner of my trunk is inaudible while moving and almost so when stopped. Because I have regen available it rarely comes on anyway.


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## tomofreno (Mar 3, 2009)

T 


> Regarding the RAV4EV, I thought regen had different settings, including off?


 From "Fred" on EVDL: 
The Rav4EV is factory-standard with two levels of regen, as well as the ability to disengage regen. There is a button on the shift lever (EB) which provides for a small level of "engine braking" regen. We leave that in the regen position at all times, and it is very easy to find the "neutral" point on the pedal. The level of regen is proportional as well. If one removes one's foot from the pedal, regen in EB is at max, but partial release provides a lower level of regen. 

The other regen is on the shift lever (B) and is very strong braking/regen. We've found that we can engage it easily enough (think downshifting) when approaching an intersection which suddenly changes from green to yellow or red. 

Having owned a Xebra (still do, up for sale), we have learned to be conservative EV operators, so coasting and gentle application of power is part of normal driving for us. Because every trip we make involves braking and stopping for traffic control devices, being in EB and using B to get some energy back, rather than burning it off in the brakes is the way it works for us. We do use long-distance observation and adjust speed as best as possible to catch lights changing to green. 

On the statistical side of things, the Rav4Info display has shown us how well this works. The display provides a regen figure as well as a consumption figure. In one discharge cycle, approximately 60 miles, of which I was the primary driver, the vehicle consumed 208 watt-hours per mile if you disregard the regen. With regen in the picture, the figure was 167 watt-hours per mile. I'm a more conservative operator than my wife, so her numbers are slightly higher, but not even by ten percent more. It's almost completely flat here in this part of Florida and we rarely reach the speed limit on the roadways, but get close enough. My wife has told me that it's too easy to get too fast on the Rav4EV because it's so quiet, so powerful, and so comfortable to drive.


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## corbin (Apr 6, 2010)

Jack - you mentioned there aren't a lot of powerful AC options. Have you considered the Electro Vehicles Europe (EVE) AC40? It looks (on paper) better than the MES-DEA one. The guys at EVE seem very inclined to work with the DIY community. About $6600 for a motor/controller combo, 40kw continuous. 

I have a post about motors, costs, and quick comparison graph:

http://www.corbinstreehouse.com/blog/2010/04/plug-bug-ev-ac-drive-motor-controller-selection/
http://www.corbinstreehouse.com/blog/2010/05/plug-bug-more-motor-comparisions/

Granted, I'm going to go with a WarP9, and the graph is at the rated voltage, so actual numbers will be much better/higher.

Any thoughts on EVE?

--corbin


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## Guest (May 21, 2010)

corbin said:


> Jack - you mentioned there aren't a lot of powerful AC options. Have you considered the Electro Vehicles Europe (EVE) AC40? It looks (on paper) better than the MES-DEA one. The guys at EVE seem very inclined to work with the DIY community. About $6600 for a motor/controller combo, 40kw continuous.
> 
> I have a post about motors, costs, and quick comparison graph:
> 
> ...



I've got a 30kw on order for a Smart Passion project. I'm not familiar with the 40kw. Actually, I'm not familiar with the 30kw either. But I've corresponded with them about it. They are working on a kind of a kit for the Smart.

Jack Rickard


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## Guest (May 21, 2010)

corbin said:


> Jack - you mentioned there aren't a lot of powerful AC options. Have you considered the Electro Vehicles Europe (EVE) AC40? It looks (on paper) better than the MES-DEA one. The guys at EVE seem very inclined to work with the DIY community. About $6600 for a motor/controller combo, 40kw continuous.
> 
> I have a post about motors, costs, and quick comparison graph:
> 
> ...


Actually, I'm a little unclear on some of this information.


The voltage does not limit the top speed on AC induction motors. In fact, it doesn't have much to do with it. It very much does limit DC series motors, but AC induction motors operate quite differently. The rotation of the phases out of the controller determines speed. 

The voltage limitation does limit power. The Curtis will do up to 550 amps and ostensibly to a max of 130v. Getting both I would think would be a function of cooling. One of the reasons we designed a chill plate for this controller.

The EVE powerAPC or whatever controller is not precisely a controller. As I understand it, it's a box. Inside the box is a contactor, a fuse, and a Curtis 1238. It's a nice package, but at a a bit of a premium to the Curtis. The only reason to pay it is that its designed to fit right into the smart, and makes connections and mounting easier. It also offers some salutory on EMI issues, which are more stringent there in limitations.

Now that's what I have from them. I haven't actually seen one of these except in photos.

Jack Rickard


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## Guest (May 21, 2010)

JRP3 said:


> Two quick points:
> 1. A $25K after rebate 100 mile range Nissan Leaf starts to make a lot of home conversions unnecessary, unless you really want to convert a specific vehicle.
> 
> 2. My relatively inexpensive Thomas vacuum pump mounted on a piece of foam in the rear corner of my trunk is inaudible while moving and almost so when stopped. Because I have regen available it rarely comes on anyway.


I really don't think the Leaf will have much impact on conversions. In theory it must of course. But I've been to the rodeo before. The Phoenix was quite a design. The Aptera was the new kind of car. And the EESTOR would have us driving forever. 

Currently EVERYONE is issueing press releases by the pound. But BYD, instead of 20,000 cars in the U.S. is doing 80 taxis in Shenzen. The leaf specifically was going to be on the showroom floor by September/October. That's already slipped to December and it's May right now. Oh, and kind of limited availability till spring.

2011? 2012? And so on. I think you'll be surprised at how little actually comes to pass, and further surprised by how little it matters. What if I don't want a leaf? I want a Speedster. Or a mini. Or a dump truck.

To my unqualified, but strongly held opinion, not only will the automakers have little impact on this, but we're not even at the taking off stage in the conversion world. If you look on EVALBUM there are something like 230 LiFePo4 cars there - less than 10%. Look closer. They're almost all bicycles.

You guys are heros. PRE- pioneers. It's a long hard road ahead. I'm looking at 10-12 years to make it all come to pass.

The major automakers? I think you'll see a lot of hybrids. And hopefully we'll get some trickle down on components from that to do better EVs. I have a Toyota Prius air conditioning compressor in the garage. Needs a 3 phase controller of course. I may try a Curtis with it. It would be a $2000 saddle on a $300 horse, but whatever.

Battery cars? Nissan has staked it out. I wish them success. I don't think it will do anything but help the conversion world. 

I could be wrong.

Congratulations on your vacuum pump design. It's a pernicious problem with power steering/brake cars. I was just playing with the GMC 2500 and the vacuum pump probably WILL make me lose my mind before it's over.

Jack Rickard


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## corbin (Apr 6, 2010)

jrickard said:


> Actually, I'm a little unclear on some of this information.
> 
> The voltage does not limit the top speed on AC induction motors. In fact, it doesn't have much to do with it. It very much does limit DC series motors, but AC induction motors operate quite differently. The rotation of the phases out of the controller determines speed.
> 
> ...


Hey Jack,
My numbers may not be 100% correct (I'm very new to the EV game), and I'm obviously not comparing apples to apples. The data is just plotted from various sources (directly -- no modifications, not even for the Warp9). 

EVE does have a 40kw version -- they say there is a 3-4 week lead time for it, as they have to make it. But they can do it. I tossed their diagram for (from them) at http://www.corbinstreehouse.com/misc . They don't use the "Power ACT" thing (can't recall the exact name) for the 40kw motor -- they said they use the MES-DEA controller, and pre-configure it for the buyer. I think the 40kw version would be perfect for my bug project; however, I don't want to have to deal with the MES-DEA controller and added complexity of getting an adapter plate and figuring everything out. With DC, it is well established, so that's why I'm taking that route (for my first conversion...at least). 

I'm also curious how long it would take to get the stuff from them, how much shipping really will be from Italy, and if you have to deal with customs when you get it (and how much $$ you have to pay). Let me know how your project goes with the Smart.

corbin


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

jrickard said:


> I really don't think the Leaf will have much impact on conversions. In theory it must of course. But I've been to the rodeo before. The Phoenix was quite a design. The Aptera was the new kind of car. And the EESTOR would have us driving forever.


Phoenix was a small company doing a conversion, the Aptera was too weird to really succeed in volume, and EESTOR, nuff said. Nissan is a real auto maker, with Mr. Goshen at the helm appearing to be a true EV convert willing to push the technology. I think they'll sell more real EV's than we've ever seen.



> Congratulations on your vacuum pump design. It's a pernicious problem with power steering/brake cars. I was just playing with the GMC 2500 and the vacuum pump probably WILL make me lose my mind before it's over.
> 
> Jack Rickard


Stick it in the very rear of the vehicle, underneath and outside the cabin if possible, and pack it in foam with no hard mounting points. I'll bet you won't hear it.


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## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

jrickard said:


> The voltage does not limit the top speed on AC induction motors. In fact, it doesn't have much to do with it. It very much does limit DC series motors, but AC induction motors operate quite differently. The rotation of the phases out of the controller determines speed.
> 
> The voltage limitation does limit power. ...


This is a commonly believed myth, but it is a myth nonetheless... running out of voltage limits power in _both_ types of motors.

In an ACIM: once voltage no longer increases with frequency then available torque starts to fall off. If the torque load exceeds the maximum rotor slip angle then the motor stalls.

In a series DC motor: once back EMF ("Eg"), plus the IR drop, equals the applied voltage and no more torque can be produced; RPM drops to meet the torque demanded by the load.

The behavior is slightly different for each motor, yes, but the end result is the same.


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## JRoque (Mar 9, 2010)

> This is a commonly believed myth, but it is a myth nonetheless... running out of voltage limits power in _both_ types of motors.


But Jack said "The voltage limitation does limit power" in AC motors as he's describing the Curtis controller. 



> In an ACIM: once voltage no longer increases with frequency then available torque starts to fall off. If the torque load exceeds the maximum rotor slip angle then the motor stalls.


This is true but as I understand it, the speed limit is a function of current and not voltage. You can stop increasing the voltage to a AC motor and continue to increase the frequency and have the motor run faster. You lose torque because you can't increase it's input current. True?

JR


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## Guest (May 21, 2010)

JRoque said:


> But Jack said "The voltage limitation does limit power" in AC motors as he's describing the Curtis controller.
> 
> This is true but as I understand it, the speed limit is a function of current and not voltage. You can stop increasing the voltage to a AC motor and continue to increase the frequency and have the motor run faster. You lose torque because you can't increase it's input current. True?
> 
> JR


The speed is not precisely nor directly a function of voltage or current per se, though both are involved. IT is the rotational speed (think frequency) of the phases. Of course, as the voltage or current limits are reached, the slip increases and if there is not enough power to maintain it, torque does of course decrease. This is the power limitation established by current and amperage.

Series DC motors rpm are pretty much a function of voltage. A similar thing happens as the back emf of the motor increases to match the applied voltage. Torque diminishes and you reach your top speed.

But RPM on Ac motors is not technically the same. Torque does decrease with RPM. Eventually you don't have any.

THe MES-DEA motor for example can do 9000 rpm. But there really isn't much in there over 4500 or so by way of power.

The bottom line is that voltage does not limit rpm in the same way it does for DC series motors - where its a pretty direct relationship. That said, the AC motor is not thereby relieved of power limitations at any speed.

Jack Rickard


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## peggus (Feb 18, 2008)

The truth is all motors run on AC, they all behave exactly the same way at a given field strength. 

The difference is how the field strength is controlled. 

A series wound DC motor is not RPM limited by voltage since the field strength drops off as the back emf approaches bus voltage. A series motor with no load will try to reach infinite rpm at any voltage. In reality it will always have some load from bearing drag, commutator drag, fan losses etc. But never apply more than 12V to a unloaded series motor or you run the risk of grenadeing it. 

A permanent magnet motor (AC or DC) is directly limited by pack voltage since its field strength is fixed and always present.

A sepex DC motor and wound rotor synchronous AC motors have a variable field strength independent from armature speed and rpm. The speed can always be raised by lowering the field strength, again ignoring load.

An induction motor, especially under field oriented control, behaves just like sepex motors, the field strength is independently controllable. It is a lot harder to control since it is induced by transformer action but it is doable with modern DSPs. 

All motors are governed by the same basic equations
Back EMF = field strength * speed
motor current = ( source voltage - back EMF ) / motor resistance
Torque = motor current * field strength
field strength = field current * k


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## JRoque (Mar 9, 2010)

Ok let's see if I can get this clarified for my benefit:

Let's put aside shaft load and commutator/slip limits for a second. A DC motor speed varies with voltage level. I think everyone agrees with that.

If an AC motor spin at 3600 RPM at it's rated voltage and 60 Hz is fed the same voltage but 120Hz, it will run at 7200 RPM. 

Can we then say that DC motor speed is dependent on input voltage but AC motors are not?

JR


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

peggus said:


> field strength = field current * k


Realize that k is not a constant (linear).


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

JRoque said:


> Can we then say that DC motor speed is dependent on input voltage but AC motors are not?


You could say that. Like the RPM for an AC motor is proportional to frequency. But this holds up to a point. And then you find the motor won't produce useful torque. So what good is that?

And even with DC motors, RPM increases with voltage, but at some point you hit a wall. Either the armature flies apart or commutation fails.

There exist limits and interdependencies.

major


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## Guest (May 22, 2010)

JRP3 said:


> Phoenix was a small company doing a conversion, the Aptera was too weird to really succeed in volume, and EESTOR, nuff said. Nissan is a real auto maker, with Mr. Goshen at the helm appearing to be a true EV convert willing to push the technology. I think they'll sell more real EV's than we've ever seen.
> 
> Stick it in the very rear of the vehicle, underneath and outside the cabin if possible, and pack it in foam with no hard mounting points. I'll bet you won't hear it.


I heard an awful lot about those cars. I think Nissan can sell a LOT of Leafs without having any impact on conversion activity whatsoever. In fact, I would predict it will only heighten the interest in it.

Today, the Chairman of Toyota, after a ride in a Tesla, pronounced that he had felt the winds of the future, and was moved. He then invested $50 million in Tesla.

The world is changing. But it will all take much longer than you think. It's good work. But it will take 10 or 12 years of often thankless effort to move it in that direction. Every falling leaf helps.

Jack Rickard


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## peggus (Feb 18, 2008)

yes, k is not a constant due to iron saturation. 



major said:


> Realize that k is not a constant (linear).


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## peggus (Feb 18, 2008)

No, I'm pretty sure we established that only permanent magnet motors have a speed proportional to voltage. Surface mounted permanent magnets to be picky.

You can double the frequency on an AC motor without doubling the voltage and get twice the speed but at half the torque. This is field weakening and can be done on all motors except permanent magnet motors.
Series wound dc motors do this automatically, but not optimally.





JRoque said:


> Ok let's see if I can get this clarified for my benefit:
> 
> Let's put aside shaft load and commutator/slip limits for a second. A DC motor speed varies with voltage level. I think everyone agrees with that.
> 
> ...


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## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

JRoque said:


> ...
> Let's put aside shaft load and commutator/slip limits for a second.


Part of my point is that you can't set aside those things! What can "theoretically" occur is irrelevant except to physicists; engineers deal with the real world.



JRoque said:


> A DC motor speed varies with voltage level. I think everyone agrees with that.


Yep, and it's armature frequency varies, too... after all, the commutator and brush assembly provide the same function as an ACIM's inverter.



JRoque said:


> If an AC motor spin at 3600 RPM at it's rated voltage and 60 Hz is fed the same voltage but 120Hz, it will run at 7200 RPM.


As long as the torque at 7200 rpm is sufficient, sure. The crux of my point is that if you run out of torque _in both motors_ then speed falls. To maintain a given speed at a given torque load _in both motors_ you need _voltage_. 




JRoque said:


> Can we then say that DC motor speed is dependent on input voltage but AC motors are not?


From a practical standpoint, sure. Just keep in mind that you can fling a WarP9 motor to pieces with 24-36V if unloaded; point being, you simply can't ignore the load.

To reiterate, in both motors speed stops going up once torque produced and torque demanded reach equilibrium. In a series DC motor speed will drop to meet the torque demanded; in an ACIM the rotor will stall once the breakdown torque value is exceeded. It is this behavior of the ACIM that makes them less suited to traction applications in the first place, though good software and a fast DSP can mitigate that.

Perhaps approaching this from a different angle will be helpful... what is _torque_ proportional to in both motors? Current, of course.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

jrickard said:


> I heard an awful lot about those cars. I think Nissan can sell a LOT of Leafs without having any impact on conversion activity whatsoever. In fact, I would predict it will only heighten the interest in it.


Possibly. However, I have to look at the Leaf and think "Can I do a 100 mile conversion as nice as a Leaf for $25K total cost including donor vehicle?" Probably not.


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## tomofreno (Mar 3, 2009)

> "Can I do a 100 mile conversion as nice as a Leaf for $25K total cost including donor vehicle?" Probably not.


 Does anyone know at what speed it does 100 miles?


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## tomofreno (Mar 3, 2009)

> No, I'm pretty sure we established that only permanent magnet motors have a speed proportional to voltage.


 Unloaded, or minimally loaded speed I think. A large load requires large torque, without which, the motor won't get to high speed. Torque depends on current as your equation shows, which in turn depends on voltage. I think that is why people are saying speed increases with voltage - loaded speed.

By "field" I assume you are referring to the magnetic flux of the armature, hence it is constant in a permanent magnet, or BLDC, motor?


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## yarross (Jan 7, 2009)

peggus said:


> No, I'm pretty sure we established that only permanent magnet motors have a speed proportional to voltage.


Generally, fixed field motors exhibit this behavior. Some PM motors do, but others provide possibility to control excitation field (by counterexcitation, for example).


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## peggus (Feb 18, 2008)

yeah, didn't want to complicate things by bringing up interior PM designs...


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## JRoque (Mar 9, 2010)

> I'm pretty sure we established that only permanent magnet motors have a speed proportional to voltage


Hi. So what do you do to increase the speed of, say, a series wound DC motor?

My point was, with the utmost respect to Tesseract, that voltage dependency on an AC motor does not go as far as to being considered a "myth" and certainly not as it is with any other type of DC motor.

Attention Mr. Cro, we've been goofing around your thread but that doesn't mean you're off the hook to give us regular reports on how your motor/controller test is going... or tell us how you suddenly found out they can be had for a lot cheaper than before 

JR


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

JRoque said:


> So what do you do to increase the speed of, say, a series wound DC motor?


Hi JR,

That's an easy one. Either decrease the load, field weaken it or raise the voltage.

Regards,

major


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## yarross (Jan 7, 2009)

JRoque said:


> Hi. So what do you do to increase the speed of, say, a series wound DC motor?


He meant "no-load maximum speed". Series motors do not have this limit, because field weakens with speed increase, so theoretically, no load (including parasitic loads) condition would result in infinite speed.


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## Bowser330 (Jun 15, 2008)

tomofreno said:


> Does anyone know at what speed it does 100 miles?


The 100mile range is not based on one speed. It is based on a range of speeds over time, a range that the EPA uses to simulate the "typical" urban driving cycle...the UDDS (below) is what Nissan used...as you can see the average speed is somewhere around 20mph..in what seems to be a stop n go traffic drive cycle...therefore some could question whether or not their specific drive cycle could achieve the 100mile range...










You could say...as long as you average 240wh/mile you will achieve the 100mile range...since the pack is 24kwh...


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## Jan (Oct 5, 2009)

CroDriver said:


> Hi Jan.
> 
> The first unit should be ready for installation by the end of this month.


Any news yet, Cro?


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## Ryan800 (Apr 15, 2010)

CroDriver said:


> I hope that we'll have a motor installed in a car within one month and one more month to test it. I suppose that we can ship first units in June.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


How is it possible for a permanant magnet motor to have the constant torque/constant power regions shown in this graph?

I thought once peak torque was reached, field weakening was required to reduce back-EMF so that current could still be supplied, but how can you do that when the field is created by permanant magnets?

Do different types of permanent magnet motors behave differently in this respect?


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## yarross (Jan 7, 2009)

Ryan800 said:


> I thought once peak torque was reached, field weakening was required to reduce back-EMF so that current could still be supplied


That's correct.



Ryan800 said:


> but how can you do that when the field is created by permanant magnets?


By counterexcitation. Some motor modifications are required - there must be an alternative path for magnetic flux, like bridged stator or soft iron of interior permament magnet rotor. Surface mount PMSMs are generally not suitable for field weakening.


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## arddea (Jan 23, 2010)

jrickard said:


> I think Nissan can sell a LOT of Leafs without having any impact on conversion activity whatsoever. In fact, I would predict it will only heighten the interest in it.
> Jack Rickard


It depends on why people convert. I will still be converting older cars as there has only been only a handful of attractive (non-super-car) car made in the last 15 years. If you want a non repulsive vehicle your choices are buy a used car > 15 years old or spend > 100K. not a very good choice. Unless you convert. 



jrickard said:


> Every falling leaf helps.
> Jack Rickard


Shouldn't that be "Every_ failing_ Leaf helps." With how incredibly ugly the Leaf is and its limited range I see it being a flop, it is as if the auto industry is trying to kill the EV via repulsiveness.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

I don't see it as being that hideous, for what it is, and it's "limited" range blows most conversions away.


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## CroDriver (Jan 8, 2009)

Jan said:


> Any news yet, Cro?


We're finishing the first unit. But I started to realize that this AC systems are not for the DIY market. I just can't produce that for a acceptable price. No chance I could sell them below 18.000 € (the 200 kW version), except when 100 would be pre-ordered (in this case the price would drop by half). 

I'm working on a small scale production high-performance PEHV (a EV with small range extender). It's our own design. It will have 4 of these 200kW motors and the batteries in the floor. The system will be used for this project and maybe some other high budget projects. 

I think that AC can't compete with DC because everyone is looking for the cheapest option, not the best one. And it would be crazy to buy a AC system for your car that's just a little cheaper that a whole EV (Nissan Leaf). I'm sorry it turned out this way.


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## CroDriver (Jan 8, 2009)

Ryan800 said:


> How is it possible for a permanant magnet motor to have the constant torque/constant power regions shown in this graph?
> 
> I thought once peak torque was reached, field weakening was required to reduce back-EMF so that current could still be supplied, but how can you do that when the field is created by permanant magnets?
> 
> Do different types of permanent magnet motors behave differently in this respect?


It's not constant torque. The torque falls but the RPM rises so the power output remains the same.


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## Jan (Oct 5, 2009)

So, you could sell a 200kW system (motor, inerter etc) for 9000 euros if you would get at least a 100 orders? And what about a 100kW system? How much would that be? 

OK, it's expensive, but a 100kW system is in DC also very expensive.



CroDriver said:


> I'm working on a small scale production high-performance PEHV (a EV with small range extender). It's our own design. It will have 4 of these 200kW motors and the batteries in the floor.


Wow... 800kW...


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

CroDriver said:


> I think that AC can't compete with DC because everyone is looking for the cheapest option, not the best one. And it would be crazy to buy a AC system for your car that's just a little cheaper that a whole EV (Nissan Leaf). I'm sorry it turned out this way.


Most people don't need a 200KW system in AC or DC. 80-100KW system would sell like crazy at a decent price and give good performance in the right vehicle.


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## Bowser330 (Jun 15, 2008)

Thanks for the update Crodriver.

right now, with battery tech where it is, I think range extension is a great way to make the DIYHEV more versitile. Atleast until something revolutionary comes out that dramatically increases power storage per kg...


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## Automcdonough (Sep 1, 2010)

codriver, 
Any price is possible with enough quantity. Don't lose sight of your original goal of using 4 motors. I found this thread because I am researching a suitable AC motor to use. I agree that a motor on each wheel opens up a world of opportunity when it comes to traction control. Software adjustable slip rates of all 4 corners. Automatically proportioning torque to the wheel with the most weight on it. Not just that but the thing could steer itself (torque steer on purpose), totally eliminating traditional power steering.

Consider this:
http://www.rasertech.com/motors-and-drives/products/motors/p42-motor-generator

They have larger ones, but for putting one on each wheel this is an appropriate size. When I saw this my eyes lit up, not just from the specs but because it looks like a CV halfshaft will pop straight in there.. But I was forgetting about gear reduction. Something around 3.5:1 would give me a max of 120mph and ~500ft-lbs on the wheel. The stock motor in this car (e30) gears down in 1st to approx 1500 ft-lbs to the rear wheels, the comparison was helpful to determine if direct-drive would work out ok without a transmission. The thought of taking that 1st gear acceleration all the way to triple digit speed put a big stupid grin on my face. 
I can admit that 2nd has enough torque too, sizing these motors squarely at 2x what I need. Which should be fun. I've sort of been hoping to find a pancake style reduction gear, or a motor with a ring shaped rotor that has the gear packed in the middle. Larger dia rotor should be more torque happy. I think you get the point though? How awesome would this be if it was a ready to go ball of aluminum that the CV pops straight into??

It sounds like most of these guys would be happy to take just 1 or 2 for smaller power projects. Pick a size and run with it, high quantity low cost. With many projects using 4 they will add up quick.

I have a pretty awesome plan for a modular electronics setup. Because of what people want to charge for motor controllers I'm considering making a dual or quad driver.. we will see. Some of the off-shelf ones look like the inputs are acceptable for the TCS fun. I look forward to getting more details on yours.


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## Crash (Oct 20, 2009)

Wow... I just found this thread. 

It's a shame that the system would be very expensive. I can understand though. Manufacturing costs are just incredibly crazy these days.

I was looking for a motor I could use for racing. I'm not ready to start on my project, but I would like to use fixed gearing to build an AWD Corvette C5 for road racing. My thoughts were to use two of those Brusa 8-24-10 motors connected by a single shaft that would couple to drive shafts to the front and rear differentials. (Although a transfer-case may be required instead.)

Then I stumbled upon this motor/controller setup. Not sure how much torque these generate with the 200KW model, but gearing them down to, say, 6K RPM max would really generate a lot of torque. Two of these motors would be perfect.

There probably aren't enough people to do a group purchase that makes 100 sets, but still, at 18K Euros, the cost is still comparable to the Brusa setup since the power rating is so much higher.

What I've been wanting to know is what the rated power and torque would be on the 200KW model and what the sustained max power/torque time would be. Obviously there hasn't been any major testing on these yet, but I was wondering if you guys had any speculation.

Since you lasted posted about the DIY systems pretty much coming to a halt, do you have any current plans for these systems yet?


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## DawidvC (Feb 14, 2010)

The peak torque is quoted as 415Nm or 306ft-lb. This is available up to 4600rpm, and would be a 1 minute rating. This motor is watercooled, so you might run it over its nominal rating for quite a long time. The nominal rating is 100kw 207Nm. The best option would be to determine your cruising speed and gear the motor to run 4600 rpm at your nominal cruising speed. The rated torque drops off to less than half (100Nm) before 9000rpm, so usable power up there is much less. It looks like a very nice motor.

They also have a PM motor that they are selling as a generator. It is adapted to ICE rpm ranges. Using that with an apropriate controller will make a nice setup for medium-sized cars. For its output it is quite compact and not very heavy.

Dawid


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## pm_dawn (Sep 14, 2009)

The power in the 9000rpm range is not that much less since Power = torque x rpm. So 200nm at 4500rpm would give the same power as 100nm at 9000rpm.

Right.....

Regards
/Per


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## miniUMM (Jun 25, 2009)

More News ??? on the AC Motor and Controller ??


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## CroDriver (Jan 8, 2009)

Sorry guys but the system is still in development... Like always when you develop something like this, it gets harder and much more expensive than you think at the beginning... 

Maybe we won't ever sell it since the development and production is so expensive we can't offer it for a reasonable price.

The system will be used for our 4-motored sports production EV. 

I can't tell anything for sure now, we'll have to wait and see what happens.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Of course your development costs remain the same if you sell more or not. The only way to recoup those costs would be to sell more units. It's the production costs of those subsequent units that may make sales prohibitively expensive. To put it another way, it seems a shame to go through all that work and not make a few extras


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## tomofreno (Mar 3, 2009)

> To put it another way, it seems a shame to go through all that work and not make a few extras


 Not if you need to get $20k each to make any profit from those few extras, and no one will purchase them for that price. Not to mention the distraction from focusing on breaking records.


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## Crash (Oct 20, 2009)

Considering that the competition is selling their motors at well over $20K for approximately the same performance, $20K is actually reasonable considering supply and demand.

UQM charges $20K for their low end models alone. $30K+ for anything worth while to mean performance car specs. You can't even get a ACP system without buying a bunch of them and it seems that Evo Electric is over $30K for their 240KW system. So either way, if you sold them for $20K is still seems like a bargain.


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## Automcdonough (Sep 1, 2010)

perhaps but it is still a tough pill to swallow when put in the perspective of what a new car costs, or even just a similarly high performance motor.


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## eduardomag (Aug 30, 2010)

Can you send me more details on these motors?
Thanks
Eduardomag


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## ACmuscle (Apr 7, 2011)

i would realy like to know where you fond this motor and how to get and get specs. i am building a ac car for a school project and realy like the idea of useing this motor.


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## electro37 (May 18, 2008)

Hi, I am looking for a small car-propulsion motor, motorbike drive, also!! Can you give me some further details of that German motor?? The "gearing-aspect" is also of use.


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