# Re: [EVDL] Market Research for a new 3 wheel EV



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Market Research for a new 3 wheel EV*

Impressive design.
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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Market Research for a new 3 wheel EV*

Hi Doug and All,

It sounds fairly good though I think you'll
need to make the front more conventional looking for the US
market, the rest looks good.

$25k will limit your market here but I'd
bet good for a couple hundred sales/yr here. Keep costs low
and sell from online to keep costs low and lower your price
if you can. Maybe make them here would cost less as our
labor, parts are less.

70 mile range for a 15kw battery pack
seems quite low and my similar size unit did under
100wthrs/mile.

Done right all composite body/chassis is
a great way to go if done right. The weight saving directly
lowers building, EV drive, battery pack costs.

Good luck,

 Jerry Dycus

----- Original Message Follows -----
From: Doug Wilson <[email protected]>
To: ev <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Market Research for a new 3 wheel EV
Date: Fri, 15 Jan 2010 09:08:51 -0500

>Anybody interested in a new Fiberglass sandwich (composite)
>3 wheeled LiFePo4 AC powered commuter? Not unlike the
>Aptera, but with enclosed wheels and shorter. Comments?
>
>Douglas S. Wilson
>ECO-Holland (Electric Cars of Holland)
>616-610-2370
>[email protected]
>http://www.ECO-Holland.com
>
>
>On Mon, Jan 11, 2010 at 11:56 AM, Doug Wilson


> ><[email protected]>wrote:
> >
> >> Folks that follow this list are likely some of the most
> >> advanced and knowledgeable in the field.
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Market Research for a new 3 wheel EV*

Jerry,

I appreciate the critique, I agree about the front end. We're trying to get
away from the conventional grill and introduce more vertical lines.
As much as we would like to price it lower, the Bill of Materials suggest
this range until we can achieve some volume. This will come over time.
Do you take into account 70% Degree of Discharge (DOD) when figuring your
range?
This is where we're trying to strike a balance and offer two power packs,
for two range/ speeds.
Thanks,
Doug

Douglas S. Wilson
ECO-Holland (Electric Cars of Holland)
616-610-2370
[email protected]
http://www.ECO-Holland.com




> jerryd <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> >
> > Hi Doug and All,
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Market Research for a new 3 wheel EV*

A lot of us. I have drawings all over the place for my own such design.
(Tadpole I assume? ie 2 wheels up front 1 in rear?)

Never had the funds to build one, probably can't afford to buy one.

Concept I was looking for was enclosed from elements cooled by fans when
at stop
10-20 mile all electric range at higher speeds ( I believe law out here
says 25mph)
Fit in bike line, not very wide ?
Removable palm pilot dash. Upgrade now, Android or Ipod
Pedal power possible, both sole power and additive. maybe even
generative. **

Ride to work without breaking a sweat in the rain, Cycle home, go ahead,
break a sweat,
System tracks power in power out as well as excersise log.


**One concept was pedaling runs a PM generator and the fans and provides
the pulses for commutation of the drive motor.
You can continue pedeling at the light for increased range and keep the
fans going. Gets rid of long chain loss, may balance out.

Have a knob for amplification of human power.  from -100%(activated
with break) to +100% on throttle where all battery, pedaling is just to
set speed.

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Market Research for a new 3 wheel EV*

I think you're on the right track as far as the drive system. IMO, a 
composite design is also the sensible answer for weight and strength. 

Making it a 3-wheeler is a mixed bag. It's smart from the standpoint of 
dodging FMVSS, but it may limit the potential market to folks like us, who 
are more familiar with the advantages of the design. It does seem to make 
more mainstream buyers leery. 

I have to agree with Jerry on the looks. It doesn't appeal to me at all - 
but then, neither does the Volt. 

Of course that's all a matter of taste and no doubt there are many who will 
love the styling. In the end it's functionality that matters anyway; 
styling has never stopped me from buying a vehicle that I thought was 
otherwise desirable. (I personally think the Aptera is gorgeous, BTW, but 
I've about given up hope that it will ever actually go on sale around here, 
if anywhere.)

I also agree that the price will make for a somewhat tough sale, unless you 
can qualify for big subsidies. I'm basing this on Jerry's comment about the 
price, because I couldn't find a price anywhere on your website. Nor did I 
see any indication of when you might be able to deliver a vehicle.

Price is a hurdle for any EV, especially those with under about 150 mile 
range. The three-wheel layout would magnify this effect, I suspect.

FWIW, my sense of the market, based on what I've read and my conversations 
with other people for 20+ years, is that a small, limited-range vehicle - 
especially one that doesn't look like a "real car," whatever that means - is 
usually preceived as a second vehicle or pleasure vehicle. If it's cheap 
enough, it sort of qualifies as entertainment. This, I think, partly 
accounts for the success of electric scooters.

Even though all of us here know that an EV is much more practical than that, 
the general public don't seem to see it that way. Besides, they're rather 
spoiled by the really quite remarkable prices for production ICEs and what 
you get for those prices. Think about what a vehicle of, say, a Corolla's 
complexity would cost if built the way you propose to build EVs.

My sense (again, FWIW) is that few people are willing to spend a full new-
car price for an EV that they perceive as being less than a car They might 
buy it at a motorcycle price or a bit above, however.

It seems to be possible to bypass some of the price resistance by offering 
something really distinctive in the EV, something which in other vehicles is 
seen as justifying a high price. So far the most successful such feature 
seems to be nearly outrageous performance, as in the Tango and Tesla. But 
again this is my impression, and yours may differ. And adding stellar 
performance would raise the price even more.

I'm also a bit skeptical at your claims for operating cost. One quarter the 
cost of a "regular car"? What regular car is that? Are you comparing it to 
an ICE of more or less comparable size (if such a critter existed), or to a 
large vehicle?

With EVs, battery amortization is always the main running cost. Although 
you allude to 100k mile battery life, this is still an unknown. I've seen 
far too many past commercial EVs let their owners down because of short 
battery life and high replacement cost. This is why I think that Nissan has 
the right idea with the Leaf, leasing the battery. It may (probably does) 
cost more in the long run, but it shields the owner from battery replacement 
sticker shock.

All that said, I think you have a fundamentally good idea, and I'd really 
like to see it succeed. I wish you all the best.

BTW, at first I thought you were located in Holland - The Netherlands. I 
wonder how many other people will have the same first impression.

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Market Research for a new 3 wheel EV*



> On 15 Jan 2010 at 16:50, Jeff Shanab wrote:
> 
> > 10-20 mile all electric range at higher speeds ... Pedal power
> > possible, both sole power and additive. maybe even generative.
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Market Research for a new 3 wheel EV*

Doug,

I think the car is very cute but before I would even consider purchasing 
another EV I would want to know what sort of warranty it has and at what 
local dealerships it can be worked on when it needs maintenance. Keep in 
mind that most people do not have any interest in working on their cars.

Thanks,
Gail
Las Vegas


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Doug Wilson" <[email protected]>
To: "ev" <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, January 15, 2010 6:08 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Market Research for a new 3 wheel EV


> Anybody interested in a new Fiberglass sandwich (composite) 3 wheeled
> LiFePo4 AC powered commuter? Not unlike the Aptera, but with enclosed 
> wheels
> and shorter. Comments?
>
> Douglas S. Wilson
> ECO-Holland (Electric Cars of Holland)
> 616-610-2370
> [email protected]
> http://www.ECO-Holland.com
>
>
> On Mon, Jan 11, 2010 at 11:56 AM, Doug Wilson


> > <[email protected]>wrote:
> >
> >> Folks that follow this list are likely some of the most advanced and
> >> knowledgeable in the field.
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Market Research for a new 3 wheel EV*

Have you done any aerodynamics calculations? It looks to have a bit 
more form than function in that regard. You range numbers are closer 
to a Sparrow than an Aptera in efficiency.

> Anybody interested in a new Fiberglass sandwich (composite) 3 wheeled
> LiFePo4 AC powered commuter? Not unlike the Aptera, but with enclosed wheels
> and shorter. Comments?
>


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Market Research for a new 3 wheel EV*

I'm afraid a three wheeler is simply a non starter and basically a waste of
time as a production vehicle. There is a good reason why in the entire
history of wheeled transportation three wheels has never caught on. A good
four wheel design should be almost as efficient yet provide more usable
room, and be more appealing to the general public. At this point an EV has
a somewhat limited audience, making it with three wheels dramatically limits
that audience even further.




> Doug Wilson wrote:
> >
> > Anybody interested in a new Fiberglass sandwich (composite) 3 wheeled
> > LiFePo4 AC powered commuter? Not unlike the Aptera, but with enclosed
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Market Research for a new 3 wheel EV*

The three wheel design in which the single wheel is in front is particularly
good for leg room. This is because the leg well for both front seats can
extend on either side of the center front wheel.

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf
Of AMPhibian
Sent: Saturday, January 16, 2010 7:46 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Market Research for a new 3 wheel EV


I'm afraid a three wheeler is simply a non starter and basically a waste of
time as a production vehicle. There is a good reason why in the entire
history of wheeled transportation three wheels has never caught on. A good
four wheel design should be almost as efficient yet provide more usable
room, and be more appealing to the general public. At this point an EV has
a somewhat limited audience, making it with three wheels dramatically limits
that audience even further.




> Doug Wilson wrote:
> >
> > Anybody interested in a new Fiberglass sandwich (composite) 3 wheeled
> > LiFePo4 AC powered commuter? Not unlike the Aptera, but with enclosed
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Market Research for a new 3 wheel EV*

Rodney,
>From my understanding, the tadpole design (single wheel in back) is more
stable, when designed correctly.

Doug
Douglas S. Wilson
ECO-Holland (Electric Cars of Holland)
616-610-2370
[email protected]
http://www.ECO-Holland.com




> Rodney Cook <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> > The three wheel design in which the single wheel is in front is
> > particularly
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Market Research for a new 3 wheel EV*

Your points are all valid.
There is no doubt a three wheeler is a challenging platform to design for
and a customer to come to terms with. But we need radical change in the
industry. Innovation isn't going to come from within the conventional
framework of the traditional automobile.
The cost of certifying a four wheeler for highway use - tens of millions of
dollars, thousands of pages of documentation, not to mention the 40 or so
vehicles you have to crash is prohibitive for a small business.
We don't need to build thousands to be profitable. We see an unserved market
between NEVs and gas powered small cars.
The Aptera appears to demonstrated that people are prepared to line up for a
unique 3 wheeled electric. Ours will appear a bit more mainstream and will
hopefully serve that market well.
This is why I'd like to have this discussion before committing.

Thank you for your perspective,
Doug

Douglas S. Wilson
ECO-Holland (Electric Cars of Holland)
616-610-2370
[email protected]
http://www.ECO-Holland.com




> AMPhibian <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> >
> > I'm afraid a three wheeler is simply a non starter and basically a waste of
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Market Research for a new 3 wheel EV*

Hi EVerybody;

I THINK a 3 wheeler is a sorta nitche vehicle? Like in FLA, So. Cal, AZ, 
NM, outlandish places like that. Perfect for where ya run yur top down in a 
convertable, ride a bike, etc?Jerry Dycus, in my humble opinion has the 
right idea? IF he can see his prototype through to a running example? He HAS 
tested the throry; the Lumberghini I have called his plywood job, after all 
he IS a boatbuilder, first, with a plywood rig, he commuted in Tampa for 
years with a basicly golf cart motor, which DID give him freeway speeds. 
He's running 2 in front, one in back, the bulky heavy batteries are over the 
front axle, like a Tango, the weight of the batterys is part of the cars' 
stability.

Oh, I don't think Jerry has to worry about building Millions of these 
rigs? IF he sold several THOUSAND in tropical climes? Not saying they 
wouldn't work well in MN oor CT where we have weather, weather or not!I 
think 3 wheelers would be tricky in snow and ice, as yur trailing wheel 
wouldn't be in the Normal" clear runningh sirface and would hafta deal with 
ice and snow buildup down the center line?You would put it away, til they 
cleared the roads, like yur Harley!

Never too late to get an EV out there for us poor , hunble masses, or 
until "S" models start showing up on Craig's List and E Pay?

Seeya

Bob
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Rodney Cook" <[email protected]>
To: "'Electric Vehicle Discussion List'" <[email protected]>
Sent: Saturday, January 16, 2010 11:29 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Market Research for a new 3 wheel EV


> The three wheel design in which the single wheel is in front is 
> particularly
> good for leg room. This is because the leg well for both front seats can
> extend on either side of the center front wheel.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On 
> Behalf
> Of AMPhibian
> Sent: Saturday, January 16, 2010 7:46 AM
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Market Research for a new 3 wheel EV
>
>
> I'm afraid a three wheeler is simply a non starter and basically a waste 
> of
> time as a production vehicle. There is a good reason why in the entire
> history of wheeled transportation three wheels has never caught on. A 
> good
> four wheel design should be almost as efficient yet provide more usable
> room, and be more appealing to the general public. At this point an EV 
> has
> a somewhat limited audience, making it with three wheels dramatically 
> limits
> that audience even further.
>
>


> > Doug Wilson wrote:
> >>
> >> Anybody interested in a new Fiberglass sandwich (composite) 3 wheeled
> >> LiFePo4 AC powered commuter? Not unlike the Aptera, but with enclosed
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Market Research for a new 3 wheel EV*

Doug,
I have an 08 Xebra hatchback and stability around town is not an issue.
Any car that I drove at freeway speeds would have to be crash-test
certified; so, relying on motorcycle status to get certified for the highway
would not meet my purchase requirements.

Rodney

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf
Of Doug Wilson
Sent: Saturday, January 16, 2010 8:38 AM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Market Research for a new 3 wheel EV

Rodney,
>From my understanding, the tadpole design (single wheel in back) is more
stable, when designed correctly.

Doug
Douglas S. Wilson
ECO-Holland (Electric Cars of Holland)
616-610-2370
[email protected]
http://www.ECO-Holland.com




> Rodney Cook <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> > The three wheel design in which the single wheel is in front is
> > particularly
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Market Research for a new 3 wheel EV*

You're right. This design is not right on yet. Designers have a way of
listening to your ideas and interpreting them. I worked in the Industrial
Design department at JCI (Automotive Interiors and seating) for 12 years. I
started as a clay modeler and went onto pioneer the use of Alias modeling
and animation. Design is broken up into different disciplines all of which
need to work together to produce what is required. The formal design process
has yet to commence on this project. Consumer research is what feeds the
process. That's why were having this discussion.
People on this discussion list are really lead adopters of the technology.

To answer your question more directly - no, we haven't done any aero
calculations *yet* and yes, the sketch does have more form than function 'in
that regard'. We wanted the image to elicite just that feeling though - that
function - i.e ingress/egress, visibility, safety, storage, etc. was not
going to be compromised for aerodynamics or styling. We overachived that and
now need to massage the form to address aerodynamics and contemporary design
styling.

We have partnered with AutoDesk who have one of the largest portfolios of
advanced software available. As I mentioned above, I was an early user of
Alias Studio software, used by literally all auto makers in the world. Since
Autodesk acquired Alias a few years ago, they have continued to improve its
capabilities. It's awesome. When coupled with Inventor, their solids
engineering package and Algor their simulation, FEA and CFD. we have
available the complete software solution to optimize our design.

Doug

Douglas S. Wilson
ECO-Holland (Electric Cars of Holland)
616-610-2370
[email protected]
http://www.ECO-Holland.com


---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: <[email protected]>
Date: Fri, Jan 15, 2010 at 11:00 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Market Research for a new 3 wheel EV
To: [email protected]


Have you done any aerodynamics calculations? It looks to have a bit
more form than function in that regard. You range numbers are closer
to a Sparrow than an Aptera in efficiency.

> Anybody interested in a new Fiberglass sandwich (composite) 3 wheeled
> LiFePo4 AC powered commuter? Not unlike the Aptera, but with enclosed
wheels
> and shorter. Comments?
>


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Market Research for a new 3 wheel EV*

Not really. The twike is for 2, and tries for higher speeds so it can be
in the main road. But has one wheel up front, with little rake.
100% of the time I would be alone and that would make a twike unstable.

I am thinking one person. A Commuter Pod, "Escape Pod" as I call it. 
One step up from HPV or bent. Or the enclose bents with training wheels.
A regular bike in the bike lane is actually as wide as a persons
shoulders.. I am thinking more of that envelope with lean steer to help
stability over having a wider stance.
The right wheel would have to be watched, You can't ride with it too
close to the curb so it rides with the left wheel on the line and the
right wheel 1 foot from the curb.

I also am not considering 1 wheel up front!



> > On 15 Jan 2010 at 16:50, Jeff Shanab wrote:
> >
> >
> >> > 10-20 mile all electric range at higher speeds ... Pedal power
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Market Research for a new 3 wheel EV*

I don't want to start a flame war. I think this paragraph is a bit of
an exaggeration, Unless I was being lied to.

> "The cost of certifying a four wheeler for highway use - tens of millions of
> dollars, thousands of pages of documentation, not to mention the 40 or so
> vehicles you have to crash is prohibitive for a small business."

I was trying to make up a business proposal and was getting quotes for
crash testing.
I was surprised when it was explained to me.

It is an honor system.
If sued, you must be able to show a court that you made "an adequate
and concerned effort to ensure safety"

The NHTSB Sets all the rules and you get non-destructive inspected for
meeting those rules, But the crash safety is left to the courts!

Most car manufactures have their own facilities, They can crash over
and over to improve the design before sending it to a more independent
crash facility and getting a good rating. This effects greatly the
pricing for insurance. Customers will not buy a car if the insurance for
a particular model is too high.

In general I was told I would need to provide 2 working and one mock up
or non-working (for air bag test)

Since there is go gasoline, there is inherently less tests.

But some car companies only do the final public crash tests, The
credibility and advertisement value is immense.
The larger companies with enough money can use software to crash the
cars 100,000 times and optimize for least injury.
The courts will and do accept these simulations as adequate proof.

The software is expensive, and of course saves money from crashing over
and over. But it is kinda like smog tests.
It may take multiplke tries and many 100's of dollars to get a pass on
smog or it may take $32.99 + certificate.

If one pass passes the safety test, then it can be reasonable for a
smaller company

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Market Research for a new 3 wheel EV*

Jeff,
If that is so, I stand corrected. I will certainly look into it. I
understood that although OEMs do their own simulations and crash testing,
that they were required by a third party to validate their claims. I didn't
make those statements up. They were quoted to me by a manufacturer yet to be
certified.
I was thinking there was an exemption from testing under a certain number of
units, but hadn't found evidence of that.
My intertion is make the vehicle as safe as any other. I didn't realize it
was up to the manufacturers.

I'll get back to you.

I remain intrigued by the three wheelers though. Have you seen the T-Rex
videos?

Doug
Douglas S. Wilson
ECO-Holland (Electric Cars of Holland)
616-610-2370
[email protected]
http://www.ECO-Holland.com <http://www.eco-holland.com/>




> Jeff Shanab <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> > I don't want to start a flame war. I think this paragraph is a bit of
> > an exaggeration, Unless I was being lied to.
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Market Research for a new 3 wheel EV*



> AMPhibian wrote:
> 
> > I'm afraid a three wheeler is simply a non starter and basically a
> > waste of
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Market Research for a new 3 wheel EV*

Hello Rodney,

> The three wheel design in which the single wheel is in front is particularly
> good for leg room. This is because the leg well for both front seats can
> extend on either side of the center front wheel.

Except that a single front wheel is far less stable in avoidance maneuvers and under braking while turning. The key to stability with a 3 wheeled design is: from the center of gravity, imagine a 45 degree cone down to the ground, and it makes a circle. That circle *must* be completely inside the triangle that is formed by the centers of the three contact patches. Ideally, the circle on the ground is as close to the 2 wheels as possible -- and when any vehicle is under braking the Cg shifts forward.

Take a look at the Aptera 2e for a good idea of how to make a stable 3 wheeled design -- the front track is ~7' and the wheelbase is probably ~10' or more. And all the batteries are forward under the floor. Narrow reverse trikes (like the Messerschmitt) are unstable and prone to tipping over. I would not drive a 1 wheel in front design over about 15 or 20mph...

Sincerely, Neil
http://neilblanchard.vox.com/library/posts/




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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Market Research for a new 3 wheel EV*

Doug,

A few thoughts after driving my Gizmo for the past 3.5 years. Right
now my Gizmo weighs 993 lbs, 392 lbs on the rear wheel and the balance
on the front wheels. I currently have 8-6V floodies in it. Hopefully
by Monday I'll have my LiFePO4 pack in and shave off a couple hundred
pounds. The Gizmo is a rear wheel drive vehicle. I have driven it on
everything from dry to wet to wet snow/ice to dry snow/ice. The worst
is to drive it in the wet snow/ice conditions. When it snows here that
is usually what we get. Those in the colder climates don't always
appreciate what it is like to drive on this stuff. Imagine an ice rink
with a thin layer of water on it, then go driving. Any way, my point
is that with the rear wheel drive I have the advantage of more weight
on that one wheel than either of the two front wheels but the
disadvantage that it is almost always in the part of the lane where no
other wheels go. In our last snow a couple of weeks ago this became an
issue for me. Fortunately my car is narrower (just over 4 feet wide)
than a regular car. I had to drive off to one side of the lane at
times to try to get the rear wheel off the slush/snow onto the
pavement. Otherwise it would spin frequently. On the way up the hill
to my house the snow was accumulating and not melting but it was still
quite slick. I slid many times because the rear wheel would brake
loose so easily. Just before cresting the hill I finally lost so much
traction that I couldn't continue up the hill. Fortunately I was able
to slowly back down the hill onto a level side road. When traffic was
clear I was able to make a run for it and barely made it over the top.
If I had front wheel drive none of this would have been an issue. I
was glad to see Aptera went for a front wheel drive set-up even though
it may have cost a little more.

Another stability issue comes when using regen on a corner. I have had
to limit my use of regen on a corner. I don't like the unexpected
adrenaline rush when the back wheel brakes loose. I think that the
"average" driver would be safer in a front wheel drive version of a
3-wheeled car than a rear wheel drive design.

My car only goes about 40mph on the level so my experience is mostly
city driving and short country road trips (posted speed limit 45mph or
lower). It might be worth seeking out some Sparrow/NmG drivers to see
what they think of the rear wheel drive and what they think would be
better/worse if they could have the same car in a front wheel drive
version.

Good luck.

-- 
David D. Nelson
http://evalbum.com/1328

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Market Research for a new 3 wheel EV*

*Doug,*
* Thanks for the link, I must have lived a sheltered life as I have
only seen a very few 3 wheelers, including the Morgan three wheeler, a
couple of mini trucks in Japan when I was there in 1968 and 1969 and a
modern Chinese pickup last year running electric locally at a club meeting.
*
* However I did inquire about licensing regular 4 wheeled Kit vehicles
converted to electric here in Florida, I asked at the Title and Tag
(License) office a few months ago and the four page handout was very
enlightening and quite simple. so sometimes asking the clerks can save you a
lot of hassle in advance, for example they want receipts itemizing every
component! *
* It is far simpler to sell a partially assembled KIT and all the new
owner and "Final Assembler" has to do is install the motor controller and
battery charger (or other parts which if not installed would make the "Kit
Car" inoperative! ) then they can have a title issued (It is a used car type
title) and show proof of insurance and buy the next years license plate.*
*Highest Regards,
Dennis Lee Miles (Director) E.V.T.I. inc*.
www.ElectricVehicleTechnicalInstitute.COM
*Phone (863) 289 - 0690 in Central Florida
(EV service mechs need training!
We want them to REALLY UNDERSTAND:
EV Systems, Operation and Technology.)*
=============================================================


> Doug Weathers <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> >
> > On Jan 16, 2010, at 8:45 AM, AMPhibian wrote:
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Market Research for a new 3 wheel EV*

Doug,
I don't participate much on the list, other than spot reading as I have tim=
e. I very much like what I see on the website. I love what the Aptera=
folks have designed and depending on how this might turn out in the end, m=
ay even like your design better. I think it could appeal to more of the =
younger, mobile folks, assuming that it has real get up and go.

Anxiously awaiting the day I have choices on an EV.

Scott G




> Doug Wilson wrote:
> > =
> 
> > Anybody interested in a new Fiberglass sandwich (composite) 3 wheeled
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Market Research for a new 3 wheel EV*

Regarding going with a 3 wheel design to avoid testing regulations, there is
a move on to remove that exemption. Don't know how active it is but you
might want to check into it. It would be a shame to go with a 3 wheeler and
then find you have to do all the testing anyway.
-- 
View this message in context: http://n4.nabble.com/Re-Market-Research-for-a-new-3-wheel-EV-tp1014885p1016099.html
Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Market Research for a new 3 wheel EV*

Hi Doug and All,

As someone who is doing the same thing,
here are my thoughts.

Since you are in the design stage now
is the time to tackle costs. One has to simplify, design out
weight, material, parts and labor, to be successful.

You are on the right course doing an
all composite body/chassis as it can cut out many expensive
parts, much labor, weight. And I'd farm out the body/chassis
to composite shops to save a lot of overhead, labor,
hassles. At $6-8/pound on a 250lb part is a good deal.

Think about a lead battery version as
it will really drop costs, risk a lot and do for a lot of
people, specially commuters. A lightweight, aero EV just
doesn't need that much power so 60 mile range is fairly easy
to do. Then have Lithium options for more range in the same
space. It must be aero if you are to have range at highway
speeds.

Cheap/economy is not a winner, instead
I'd go for handling, a speed/power option, sportscar, future
car, high tech kind of market.

But if you can't build it cheaply,
then it's rather rough. There will alway be the crowd like
Aptera, Sparrow got which will pay somewhat high prices but
if you can make money at $15k, and you can with a good
design, business plan and make a good profit as I've done
the numbers.

At $15k there are 10's thousands of
seniors in Fla that are tired of being hemmed in by NEV laws
that would love a good highway EV that can go anywhere. And
that's just one market, commuters, students, singles the
market is really big if you can bring in a good EV at $15k.

Good luck, there is plenty of market for
all as we need about
1 milliom EV's/yr as oil price is going up fast and
lightweight, composite EV's are a very good transport choice
for low cost.

In case you don't know, tadpole/RT EV's
can be great handling because the batteries can be so low to
perfectly place the CG. My CG is 4" lower than a Corvette's.
It's a good way to get out of the economy category at little
cost, increase perceived value. 

Jerry Dycus

----- Original Message Follows -----
From: Doug Wilson <[email protected]>
To: ev <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Market Research for a new 3 wheel EV
Date: Fri, 15 Jan 2010 09:08:51 -0500

>Anybody interested in a new Fiberglass sandwich (composite)
>3 wheeled LiFePo4 AC powered commuter? Not unlike the
>Aptera, but with enclosed wheels and shorter. Comments?
>
>Douglas S. Wilson
>ECO-Holland (Electric Cars of Holland)
>616-610-2370
>[email protected]
>http://www.ECO-Holland.com
>
>
>On Mon, Jan 11, 2010 at 11:56 AM, Doug Wilson


> ><[email protected]>wrote:
> >
> >> Folks that follow this list are likely some of the most
> >> advanced and knowledgeable in the field.
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Market Research for a new 3 wheel EV*

i have the sinclair c5

http://www.evalbum.com/2528

i wouldnt really call it an ev.

its motor really is only an assist unless you point it downhill.

i still cant decide if i should sell it or put in an etek motor and
china atv rear axle

anybody interested in the machine ?




> Robert Johnston wrote:
> 
> > A 3-wheel EV like the Sinclair C5, then?
> >
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Market Research for a new 3 wheel EV*

Dennis,
I've been off the list working on other business issues, but I wanted to let
you know I took note and thank you for your point. I believe the Tango is
delivered like this and as Intend to have a dealer support network, this may
be a unique marketing angle. There also may be opportunities to sell the
vehicles in kit stages.
I will need to complete the design, engineering and get the production bugs
streamlined before offering the vehicle as a kit, however.

Regards,

Doug

Douglas S. Wilson
ECO-Holland (Electric Cars of Holland)
616-610-2370
[email protected]
http://www.ECO-Holland.com




> Dennis Miles <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> > *Doug,*
> > * Thanks for the link, I must have lived a sheltered life as I have
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Market Research for a new 3 wheel EV*

Dennis,
I've been off the list working on other business issues, but I wanted to
thank you for your point. I believe the Tango is delivered like this and as
Intend to have a dealer support network, this may be a unique marketing
angle. There also may be opportunities to sell the vehicles in kit stages.

Douglas S. Wilson
ECO-Holland (Electric Cars of Holland)
616-610-2370
[email protected]
http://www.ECO-Holland.com




> Dennis Miles <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> > *Doug,*
> > * Thanks for the link, I must have lived a sheltered life as I have
> ...


----------

