# Is this a good Lithium battery choice?



## Caps18 (Jun 8, 2008)

I'm not a big fan of the pouch cells. But, it looks like a good company that knows what they are doing (and is willing to sell to dealers across the country).

How much are their 100 Ah LiFePO4 cells? I will also be buying 45 of them.


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## adeyo (Jun 6, 2012)

Don't know about 100ah...but I should be getting a price quote soon on 160ah. Should be around $180 maybe a little lower but don't want to promise anything. I'm in Virginia and we might be getting as many as 400. Typical retail I believe is about $220. Would you be interested?


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## Coley (Jul 26, 2007)

Just sent them an email about their 72 volt battery and the 12 volt battery.
Specs and prices.


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## Coley (Jul 26, 2007)

The reply just came back from them:

Delivery has failed to these recipients or groups:

[email protected]
Your message can't be delivered because delivery to this address is restricted. 




not easy getting info from them


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## adeyo (Jun 6, 2012)

Coley said:


> The reply just came back from them:
> 
> Delivery has failed to these recipients or groups:
> 
> ...


Well, you have to be a distributer as they don't deal with the general public. On another note, specs on their batteries can be found as a pdf download on their site. Just go to the products and select the battery you have interest in. In the upper right hand side their is a "download product brief" pdf of that batteries' particular specs. 

I can get these at greatly reduced prices... Really at the same price as CALB or cheaper, and they seem to be a higher quality product.


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## Ziggythewiz (May 16, 2010)

adeyo said:


> they seem to be a higher quality product.


How so? Is it the higher peukert effect or the lower pulse discharge rate? Maybe the lack of 3rd party testing or community usage?


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## adeyo (Jun 6, 2012)

Well, that is why I asked, because I don't really know. But I like the fact that automobile companies consider them a viable option. As well as military usage. That should say something correct?

I really don't know when the dust settles however.

Edit: besides, there are so many companies that actually fudge their data, that I would not put stock in a couple of sheets that talk about discharge rates, Peukert effect etc. It could be that this company have stricter testing standards.

So what price what I have to pay to make these batteries worth getting?


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## Ziggythewiz (May 16, 2010)

What OEMs choose means nothing. Absolutely nothing. Military even less. Look at Boeing. I bet they thought they were getting a great deal on OEM quality RC batteries.


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## adeyo (Jun 6, 2012)

So what is the best battery for the price? 

And what price would I have to get for these to be worth it? Or be a better value than CALB (per ah.)... Our prices are negotiable and dependant upon volume


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## Ziggythewiz (May 16, 2010)

Who knows? They're untested (by us). From the specs they're probably fine to use, especially if you need that much range (from 160 AH cells). Go for it, just don't expect a bunch of people to jump on the first bandwagon.

If you have the ability to do some testing (like temp, capacity, and voltage sag up to 8C) that would allow us to compare them to CALBs that would go a long way.


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## adeyo (Jun 6, 2012)

What is the max I should pay due to the risk? $0.90 ah? $1.10ah? What would make it worth pursuing? I can get them in modules to my specs. Ie. 12v modules to help installation etc


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## Ziggythewiz (May 16, 2010)

That's entirely up to you. They do have a 2 year warranty, be sure to check the specs on that, and how long they have been in business. There are similar cells that go for $1-$1.10/ah, but the 12V module does add some value, assuming you're not sacrificing much space by going that route.


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## Brute Force (Aug 28, 2010)

I couldn't find any information on the 160Ah pouch cells you're talking about. Could you provide a part number and a link?

While I was not terribly impressed with the specs of the cells the did have listed, their 150Ah pouch cell modules have a form factor that fits ideally in my project. Hmmm.

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Here's an article I found on Flux Power:

http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/10/18/idUS114049+18-Oct-2012+HUG20121018

"Flux Power uses lower cost, lower functionality lithium batteries from multiple suppliers in their plug and play designed Battery Management Systems (BMS), which substantially lowers the cost versus other suppliers, by over 50% in most cases. Flux BMS then manages the batteries to perform equally or better than the higher cost competitors."


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## wessss77 (Jan 4, 2013)

Adeyo, I am by no means a battery expert as i am also doing my first conversion. I have been looking at the same cells and modules as these for different reasons. I see the 4000 cycle life on these and that means longer by several years. The modules will come with BMS installed and included so this would make it more of a plug and play. I am looking for a 144V 100 - 200 Ah setup also and I am just down the road in NC. So if you can get some pricing together please let me know. They handle 5C pulse and nominal is 2C-3C so they should work fine in the EV market if I understand this all correctly. Oh and I would go in at the 100Ah modules as these maintain the 3C nominal which drops to 2C in modules over the 140Ah modules.


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## wessss77 (Jan 4, 2013)

Also remember to add in the shipping with the cost if that is a factor...I will make the drive up if the price is right


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## PStechPaul (May 1, 2012)

I might be interested in much smaller cells and modules. The 5Ah pouch cell would be ideal. I would need 100 pieces for a 320V 1.6 kWh pack. I would prefer 12V modules with built-in access to individual cell connections for BMS purposes. But I am not impressed with the specs of their BMS module:
http://fluxpwr.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/10/flux_125_BMSM_12_9_WEB.pdf

It uses 60mA while operating and 5mA in sleep mode. This is a considerable load for a small pack. It would be 1% of capacity while running, which would be acceptable, but the 0.1% during sleep is excessive IMHO. It would drain a 5Ah pack by 10% in 100 hours, and for a tractor that may be used only once a week it would be 15%. Of course I could keep it on charge, but then it would be operating with 60mA at 320V which is almost 20 watts. 

I would be very interested if I can get the pouch cells or 5Ah modules for $0.40/Wh or less, including delivery (although I can probably pick them up in VA depending on how far you are from the Baltimore metro area). That would be a cost of $640 for my tractor which compares well to my expected $480 for 3.5kWh SLAs which may give me only half that considering Peukert, and also less lifetime. I may be willing to go as high as $800-$1000 for a single purchase. I'd be even more confident if I saw some actual test results for these cells. I understand that these may be factory seconds with reduced or inconsistent capacity, and that should not be a problem with a good BMS which can top balance on every charge cycle and reliably detect the weakest cell during discharge. 

My idea would be to make modules of 5-20 Ah and 24-48V each that can be freely connected in series or parallel for larger needs. I think it is an advantage to build a pack with, say 8 strings in parallel, where any single fault would disconnect the string from the whole pack with a loss of only 12% of total capacity. The disconnect could be safely accomplished with an inexpensive relay because it would not be switching full pack voltage because of the others in parallel. 

And my BMS system should be able to operate with less than 5mA and will draw only about 200 uA during sleep, during which time it will still give a visual indication of any cell which is very weak.


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## adeyo (Jun 6, 2012)

PStechPaul said:


> I might be interested in much smaller cells and modules. The 5Ah pouch cell would be ideal....
> 
> 
> I understand that these may be factory seconds with reduced or inconsistent capacity,....



In unsure of this point if we would be able to mix batteries in our order. I can find out what we are required (quantity wise) to order or if we can mix and match. We are already in process of making a large order, so piggy backing (160 ah) would be easy. I'll get more details next week. We got snowed in today in Lynchburg and Monday is a holiday. 
................ 

No factory seconds. All brand new. The reason they aren't listed on their website is we are ordering batteries from their previous product list, but their website now shows their updated information and they left off what they are phasing out... inventory which we still have access to. Some WITHOUT their built in BMS. (FOR ANYONE WONDERING, WE ARE NOT ORDERING STOCK WITH THE BUILT IN BMS). 

They will still be custom building our modules though.... But if you are saying there is a better bms out there that is good to know. 

What would you recommend me use with these batteries if i dont go with their custom bms?


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## adeyo (Jun 6, 2012)

wessss77 said:


> Adeyo, I am by no means a battery expert
> 
> ...... The modules will come with BMS installed and included so this would make it more of a plug and play........
> 
> ..... I am looking for a 144V 100 - 200 Ah setup also and I am just down the road in NC....


Nor am I! I've not finished all my training here yet (bluestar solar) but I'm enjoying myself  

We are requesting batteries without the built in bms. However, we can still order their bms system which plus in to the system we are purchasing. (so still can be plug and play) 

The 160 ah may work for you then.... Is great your in NC. What part? I'm 2.5 hrs from Durham area.


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## adeyo (Jun 6, 2012)

Brute Force said:


> I couldn't find any information on the 160Ah pouch cells you're talking about. Could you provide a part number and a link?
> 
> --------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> ...


I'll try to get a part number. See comment above as to why not on their site. 

I couldn't access that reuters link (no subscription maybe?) but I think the comparison is probably to industrial /commercial batteries like valence etc who can cost upwards of $3,000+ for Lithium 12v 138ah vs. $800 with flux. As compared to CALB etc, competitive but flux is usually more expensive from what I've seen.


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## adeyo (Jun 6, 2012)

Brute Force said:


> Their 150Ah pouch cell modules have a form factor that fits ideally in my project. Hmmm.


I forgot, they will actually design the battery Form to our specs. If we say we need something so high by so wide, and they do it. So that is variable


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## PStechPaul (May 1, 2012)

adeyo said:


> In unsure of this point if we would be able to mix batteries in our order. I can find out what we are required (quantity wise) to order or if we can mix and match. We are already in process of making a large order, so piggy backing (160 ah) would be easy. I'll get more details next week. We got snowed in today in Lynchburg and Monday is a holiday.


Lynchburg is only 233 miles or about 4 hours, so that's not a bad drive. In September Muttley and I went to the KOA at Natural Bridge and then next day to the KOA in Boone, NC. On Sunday we drove all the way back, about 500 miles. I used to have a girlfriend in Charlottesville. Nice country along the AT and Skyline Drive. 



> No factory seconds. All brand new. The reason they aren't listed on their website is we are ordering batteries from their previous product list, but their website now shows their updated information and they left off what they are phasing out... inventory which we still have access to. Some WITHOUT their built in BMS. (FOR ANYONE WONDERING, WE ARE NOT ORDERING STOCK WITH THE BUILT IN BMS).
> 
> They will still be custom building our modules though.... But if you are saying there is a better bms out there that is good to know.
> 
> What would you recommend me use with these batteries if i dont go with their custom bms?


Well, I am trying to design a BMS, which I think can be built at a parts cost of about $3-$5 per cell, maybe less. I have some information in the BMS Design thread. I would also need to design a master control module, which would be about $50 or so. It will probably be a while before I'll have it ready for general use, but if you are interested in doing some testing, and pay for parts, I might be able to have something in a few months.


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## adeyo (Jun 6, 2012)

Hmmmm... I'll have to think about that. I not a risk taker and funds are tight. I'll probably go with a proven system because I really don't know much about battery technology in general. I thinking I'll need a step by step manual for preparing, balancing everything. 

What is your experience with this stuff? I know you are very knowledgeable in the forums.

Also, if you ever come back to natural bridge, I'm not far at all!


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