# I have a serious questions on Enerland Packs!



## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

I was ready to order my Headway Batteries tomorrow and happen to be snooping on NEDRA's Yahoo board and seen Johnny Metric's Fiero Build and his packs. He is using:

http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/store/uh_viewItem.asp?idProduct=10090

What is the forums opinion on using these packs to build a larger pack? He seems to love his battery pack.


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## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)




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## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)




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## ewert (Sep 5, 2009)

Horribly expensive compared to the 45-90C nanotech Turnigy on the same site ...

The nanotech Turnigy has been mentioned a few times here now, on endless-sphere tests have been done on them (they melt faces).

If I were doing a dragster, then http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/store/uh_viewItem.asp?idProduct=14617 times 50 for 100s5p or 370V 25Ah, 90C max burst for 2350 amps to melt your controller and/or motor ...

I think on endless-sphere one of the battery testers said he had pulled 200C from it ... melt faces, yep. =P


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## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

Okay, I am very interested and now looking for more feedback. Can these "pre-built packs" be connected in parallel in each battery box to up the AH and then can each battery box be connected in series to up the voltage? and for my last question, can the BMS work with theses pree-built packs?

oops, another question, the packs used in John Metric system have a XF2 marked on them, but the batteries on the Hobby King's website only have XF marked on the pack, same volts and amps? 



ewert said:


> Horribly expensive compared to the 45-90C nanotech Turnigy on the same site ...
> 
> The nanotech Turnigy has been mentioned a few times here now, on endless-sphere tests have been done on them (they melt faces).
> 
> ...


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## Frank (Dec 6, 2008)

I understand that the batteries he is using have not been released yet.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Dude, did you fall asleep in class?! LiPo was suggested in one of your other threads.

The advantages are availability, cost (compared to something like Kokam), ease of construction (compared to thousands of small cylindrical cells).
The disadvantages are less range, and probably a shorter cycle life.
I'm thinking hard about them since seeing the info that was posted in your other thread. At least for a starter pack. I stated that it that thread, but you never really seemed to respond to the idea of LiPo, so everyone probably figured you weren't interested. For a dedicated drag car, they make perfect sense because range isn't really an issue. IIRC, he was talking about something like 25-miles of range on the Yahoo Group?!


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## ewert (Sep 5, 2009)

LithiumaniacsEVRacing said:


> Okay, I am very interested and now looking for more feedback. Can these "pre-built packs" be connected in parallel in each battery box to up the AH and then can each battery box be connected in series to up the voltage? and for my last question, can the BMS work with theses pree-built packs?


Connecting for power can of course be done however one wants. Probably series+parallel rather than parallel+series to keep the high amp connections lower.

They have prebuilt balancing plugs (that jst-xh thingy). The guys on endless-sphere are doing R&D on boards for balancing multiple packs from a big charger, as far as I can recall. Anyways, they have much more info on these packs and how to use them in big packs instead of just singles like the RC guys use. I'd really suggest researching their forum for the balancing thing. I don't recall exactly what the end result currently is in there.


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## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

Dude, me falling asleep with one of your long posts is a possibility! Only kidding. 
I do remember you guys posting about LiPo's. but did not know they produced and sold such a large configuration, I thought they were all much smaller.



toddshotrods said:


> Dude, did you fall asleep in class?! LiPo was suggested in one of your other threads.
> 
> The advantages are availability, cost (compared to something like Kokam), ease of construction (compared to thousands of small cylindrical cells).
> The disadvantages are less range, and probably a shorter cycle life.
> I'm thinking hard about them since seeing the info that was posted in your other thread. At least for a starter pack. I stated that it that thread, but you never really seemed to respond to the idea of LiPo, so everyone probably figured you weren't interested. For a dedicated drag car, they make perfect sense because range isn't really an issue. IIRC, he was talking about something like 25-miles of range on the Yahoo Group?!


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## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

That is a possibility, but I see no difference in packs, except the "XF" on the Hobby King site, and the XF2 on his packs, what the difference? All the specs he posted is the same? 



Frank said:


> I understand that the batteries he is using have not been released yet.


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## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

From what I have read last night, Turnigy has a bad rep with their cells.



ewert said:


> Horribly expensive compared to the 45-90C nanotech Turnigy on the same site ...
> 
> The nanotech Turnigy has been mentioned a few times here now, on endless-sphere tests have been done on them (they melt faces).
> 
> ...


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

LithiumaniacsEVRacing said:


> Dude, me falling asleep with one of your long posts is a possibility! Only kidding.
> I do remember you guys posting about LiPo's. but did not know they produced and sold such a large configuration, I thought they were all much smaller.


I didn't post about them wise guy, I was reading and learning right along with you.  My main responses to the idea of LiPo were along the lines of, "hmmm, I might..." They have been discussed before on this forum but never with the specifics that were covered in that thread. There are links to the testing on the ES forums too. That's why I said you must have fallen alseep in class, because it was fascinating info. I think that exact Turnigy pack that ewert linked is in the other thread as well, or at least I have a link to it in my favorites as a result of that thread.

FYI, being longwinded is my "gift" in life. 

Now, PAY ATTENTION!!!


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## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

Can't you take a JOKE?

*Now Smile! *



toddshotrods said:


> I didn't post about them wise guy, I was reading and learning right along with you.  My main responses to the idea of LiPo were along the lines of, "hmmm, I might..." They have been discussed before on this forum but never with the specifics that were covered in that thread. There are links to the testing on the ES forums too. That's why I said you must have fallen alseep in class, because it was fascinating info. I think that exact Turnigy pack that ewert linked is in the other thread as well, or at least I have a link to it in my favorites as a result of that thread.
> 
> FYI, being longwinded is my "gift" in life.
> 
> Now, PAY ATTENTION!!!


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## ewert (Sep 5, 2009)

LithiumaniacsEVRacing said:


> From what I have read last night, Turnigy has a bad rep with their cells.


Well I have been following endless-sphere for over a year, and I haven't really seen much bad rep about new Turnigys during that time. I recall the older LiPo were much more hazardous etc., but the new ones, especially the nanotech versions, seem pretty good. There is just no way anything beats that kW/$ really, I mean it's pennies for the whole 2000 amps compared to what Kokam/A123 cost, which can pull that much punch with comparable weight ...


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## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

Okay, I will take a better look. I read on some RV forums that cells were lower after little use. Some kept good when some went bad.



ewert said:


> Well I have been following endless-sphere for over a year, and I haven't really seen much bad rep about new Turnigys during that time. I recall the older LiPo were much more hazardous etc., but the new ones, especially the nanotech versions, seem pretty good. There is just no way anything beats that kW/$ really, I mean it's pennies for the whole 2000 amps compared to what Kokam/A123 cost, which can pull that much punch with comparable weight ...


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## Jozzer (Mar 29, 2009)

You need to buy extra and test each and match before assembly, then you will end up with a very strong pack. I had some 5 bikes racing TTXGP with them this year, and not a single failure in use.

I too told you before this was the ONLY way to go for a dragster..

Turnigy 20C packs are sufficient IMO.


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## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

Thanks! I am glad I finally seen the light! 



Jozzer said:


> You need to buy extra and test each and match before assembly, then you will end up with a very strong pack. I had some 5 bikes racing TTXGP with them this year, and not a single failure in use.
> 
> I too told you before this was the ONLY way to go for a dragster..
> 
> Turnigy 20C packs are sufficient IMO.


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## ewert (Sep 5, 2009)

The 20C ones though are "normal" packs, dunno if they would be hurt more by this kind of use (massive burst). I mean you don't really want to go with 20C and build a pack twice the size if you can go 40C ... or triple if you go 60C. =P I guess 60C and over is pushing it ... and of course you only need the full C at the very final part of the run when you need the volts too to max out your controller/motor.

I made a spreadsheet once of the $/kWh of the packs, but haven't updated it since the nanotech stuff, so can't say right away which one is a good price though.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Go with the highest c-rate available, so you don't limit your car's ability. If Ron succeeds in his goals, you can't judge his needs by what you've seen the average EV drag race vehicle do/need. If he's utilizing that chassis, he will be pulling insane current levels off the line. Also, the max current will be pulled off the line, and kind of tapers off down the track. It's not going to pull max current and voltage at the same time. Current is torque to get moving, voltage is rpm to keep moving - oversimplified to make the point.


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## rwaudio (May 22, 2008)

toddshotrods said:


> Go with the highest c-rate available, so you don't limit your car's ability. If Ron succeeds in his goals, you can't judge his needs by what you've seen the average EV drag race vehicle do/need. If he's utilizing that chassis, he will be pulling insane current levels off the line. Also, the max current will be pulled off the line, and kind of tapers off down the track. It's not going to pull max current and voltage at the same time. Current is torque to get moving, voltage is rpm to keep moving - oversimplified to make the point.


I know you know your stuff todd, but don't confuse battery current and motor current. 

At launch battery current will be very low since the controller is power in - power out. 
IE 2000A and 20-50v to the motor on the very early part of the track
This works out to only 114-285A from the batteries assuming 350v


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## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

I have been comparing battery packs, Polyquest (Enerland) vs Turnigy. take a look at this pack:
http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/store/uh_viewItem.asp?idProduct=14617

The pack is 37V and 5AH.

I need to know availability, I wish Hobby King was open!


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## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

One thing I am worried about is wiring size? It looks these packs come with small wiring. When a wire parallel, and then series won't the higher amps and volts require heavier wires? I do not want to rewire these packs.


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## rwaudio (May 22, 2008)

LithiumaniacsEVRacing said:


> One thing I am worried about is wiring size? It looks these packs come with small wiring. When a wire parallel, and then series won't the higher amps and volts require heavier wires? I do not want to rewire these packs.


I've rewired one of these packs and it's not much fun at all, you could always cut the wires fairly short and solder/crimp them directly to some buss bars. At least then you are minimizing the "small" wiring, but based on that I would probably go one step down to the 25-50C nanotech and just use a few more of them since it looks like they use the same size wires. A few more 25-50C might even keep your voltage higher under load, either way your pack would be very light.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

rwaudio said:


> I know you know your stuff todd, but don't confuse battery current and motor current.
> 
> At launch battery current will be very low since the controller is power in - power out.
> IE 2000A and 20-50v to the motor on the very early part of the track
> This works out to only 114-285A from the batteries assuming 350v


No, I'm learning my stuff and always willing to be wrong to be wiser. 

What you've just posted is interesting because it seems to run contrary to what has been advised in the two years I have been here. I understand the difference between motor and battery current. I will shut up and listen to the debate (hoping that one happens over this).



LithiumaniacsEVRacing said:


> One thing I am worried about is wiring size? It looks these packs come with small wiring. When a wire parallel, and then series won't the higher amps and volts require heavier wires? I do not want to rewire these packs.


I was concerned about that too, but the main two are pretty decent size. They're bigger than they look in the pics - the pics make the packs look smaller than they are.

Won't be able to chime in again for a while...


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## rwaudio (May 22, 2008)

toddshotrods said:


> No, I'm learning my stuff and always willing to be wrong to be wiser.
> 
> What you've just posted is interesting because it seems to run contrary to what has been advised in the two years I have been here. I understand the difference between motor and battery current. I will shut up and listen to the debate (hoping that one happens over this).


Perhaps it's just my wording, but motor current will start out high 2000A, and motor voltage is low because rpms are low. Since Power = torque x rpm, the power starts out low (meaning power from the battery starts out low and steadily builds up to your peak HP) This would be about the only thing that resembles an ICE, but it's more a physics thing because of the formula HP=torque x rpm/(that constant), I can't remember (that constant) off the top of my head but it's around 52xx.

The motor current will taper off at higher rpms but often that is because battery current has increased to the limit and power will become constant but the RPMS continue to rise so torque must start to decrease.

Back EMF plays a part here too and the real world isn't quite as simple as it is on paper but that's the basic theory behind it.


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## GerhardRP (Nov 17, 2009)

rwaudio said:


> I know you know your stuff todd, but don't confuse battery current and motor current.
> 
> At launch battery current will be very low since the controller is power in - power out.
> IE 2000A and 20-50v to the motor on the very early part of the track
> This works out to only 114-285A from the batteries assuming 350v


About 3/4 down on this page http://www.plasmaboyracing.com/history/2010.php 
There is a Zilla dump for the July Zombie run [copy attached]. You can see the relationships of voltages and current. Note that at 6 seconds [3 seconds ET], the PWM goes to 100%.


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## ewert (Sep 5, 2009)

If we think about the whole system, we get this:

The proposed motors (2x11") most likely will be able to take whatever punishment the proposed/bought Zilla can throw them. The Zilla can take x volts and y battery amps in, and put out z motor amps. At no point can y>z, or said in easier understood form, motor amps <= battery amps, in the relationship of Vbat:Vmotor. Motor volts being 150, battery 300, only approx half the battery amps are drawn (P=UI, and Pbat~Pmotor).

So, now if he has motors and controllers, he of course needs a battery that can supply as much power as the controller can handle (which the motors should be able to handle). In as light a package as possible. If a run takes <20secs, batteries of 180C burst would be near ideal (as long as not too much voltage drop happens at end of run due to battery depletion). These nanotech are RATED for 90C. http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=22464 thread is where some reports on these can be read. Test batts with "hundreds of 10C/10C" discharge/charge cycles and capacity not showing signs of dropping, but of growing (breaking them in). _200_C dumped out of a pack, and no signs of immediate damage in capacity. That 200C means the capacity of the batteries could be blown almost in one single run... Sure will prolly drop hundreds of cycles from cycle life, but 200C? Nuts.

Since the packs are already series, I'd definitely suggest doing series THEN parallel. Make tubes/packs of your pack voltage. Measure the 10S packs and build bigpacks of about same internal resistances (number 10S packs 1,2,3,4....50 based on resistance, then combine 1+50+2+49+3+48+4+47+5+46, 6+45+7... et cetera, and each 10x10 series should have approx same total resistance). The power wires are supposedly 8awg.

Definitely buy the 90C max burst ones though. If the test packs have taken hundreds of 10C/10C cycles, buy enough of them for maybe a couple more extra parallel 10x10series tubes. Since this pack should easily max out your current controller, the power of which the motors could maybe be able to take, you will only have to play around with putting that shiznit on the ground ... and shopping for a bigger and meaner controller.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

rwaudio said:


> Perhaps it's just my wording...


I think that's what threw me a little. I was also kind of speed reading because I had to go - like I do now. More later...


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## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

More info on John's pack:

"Re: DC Plasma Update 


Wow, did you go through every picture in detail? Please don't look that close at
my sheet metal tack welds. On the netgain motors there is a temperature snap
switch and brush wear indicator on each motor. (The yellow 600V 16awg wires I
got on ebay auction 500ft for $8 free shipping. God, I love ebay.)
My sponsorship is directly with A123. The batteries weren't exactly free but
they haven't even published a price or catalog on the XF2 chemistry yet. The
previous version XF's run $242 each retail. I will have 75 6S 4400mah batteries
when done. I was grateful for the extreme price cut they gave me. I have to hang
a sign at each event."


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## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

Thank you for your input! 



ewert said:


> If we think about the whole system, we get this:
> 
> The proposed motors (2x11") most likely will be able to take whatever punishment the proposed/bought Zilla can throw them. The Zilla can take x volts and y battery amps in, and put out z motor amps. At no point can y>z, or said in easier understood form, motor amps <= battery amps, in the relationship of Vbat:Vmotor. Motor volts being 150, battery 300, only approx half the battery amps are drawn (P=UI, and Pbat~Pmotor).
> 
> ...


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## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

I have ordered one of Turnigy's 5000mah 37V pack. I rushed delivery 3 days, I want to take a good look at it and then I will decide what brand to use. I love the dimensions: 305x54x44mm, long and thin.


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## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

I will need help with the BMS, must call Manzanito Micro for products and tech support.


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

LithiumaniacsEVRacing said:


> I will need help with the BMS, must call Manzanito Micro for products and tech support.


Hmmm, Manzanita Micro is headquartered in Kingston, WA, which is in enemy territory. And I think frodus is the BMS specialist who assists customers on behalf of Manzanita Micro. I think you have interacted with frodus here on a previous thread.


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## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

Great info from an RC Website:

*Balancing Taps & Charging*
Ok, so now you know why a RC LiPo battery has to be balanced, the question now is how do you do it? 
Every muti celled RC LiPo battery will have what is called a balance tap or balance plug. This plug allows individual charging or discharging of each cell in the battery pack. Here are the four main ways to balance a LiPo pack. 








Lipo’s can be balanced while charging the pack through the balance plug with a balancing charger. This method uses the charger to individually charge each cell and ensure the voltages are the same in each cell as they charge. The above picture shows a dedicated 3 cell charger charging a 3 cell RC LiPo battery through the balancing plug/tap. 










LiPo’s can be balanced with a stand alone balancer such as a Blinky Balancer while the pack is being charged through the main power plug. Shown here is a computerized charger charging a 3 cell LiPo pack through the main power plug with the Blinky balancer hooked up to the balance plug. 
The Blinky will monitor the voltage of each cell in the pack and apply a small load to discharge any cell that is indicating a charge voltage higher than the other cells in the pack keeping all cells within about 0.02 volts (20 mV) of each other.

 A RC LiPo pack can also be balanced with a stand alone balancer after charging the pack through the main power plug. Again in this picture, the Blinky balancer is hooked up to the balancing plug, but this time after the pack was charged. Obviously this method of balancing is theoretically not as safe for the LiPo pack since one or more cells could be overcharged during charging, but it will balance all the cells and keeps them in check for the discharge cycle and subsequent charge cycles. 








Finally the very best way to balance and charge a LiPo battery is by using a computerized charger with built-in balance circuitry. With this set-up, the battery is charged through the main power plug and the balance plug/tap is plunged into what is called a balance board which is in-turn plugged into the computerized charger in most cases; however, some chargers will have the different balance ports built into the charger eliminating the need for a separate balance board.
Good computerized chargers (like that little TP-610C pictured above) with built-in balance circuitry, will confirm correct cell count, alter the charge & balance rates, and when balancing actually occurs in the charge cycle to ensure a "stress free" and safe charge/balance cycle that extends the useful life of the LiPo pack. 
This is by far the safest way to charge higher capacity multi celled LiPo's and opens up a whole new world to more advanced charging methods such as multiple pack parallel charging (the way I charge my LiPo's most of the time now).











Polyquest Plugs
*Used On: Polyquest, E-tec, True RC, Extreme Power, Impulse, Enermax, Hyperion, Poly RC, Xcite, Fliton, and a few others.*


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## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

Travis and I have settled are differences, and with his assistance Manzanita Micro is now a sponsor of ECEDRA. We have spoke many times, he is very helpful. 



major said:


> Hmmm, Manzanita Micro is headquartered in Kingston, WA, which is in enemy territory. And I think frodus is the BMS specialist who assists customers on behalf of Manzanita Micro. I think you have interacted with frodus here on a previous thread.


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## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)




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## ewert (Sep 5, 2009)

50Ah? That pack will prolly be able to max any controller being made in the near future like it is nothing ... =P


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## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

First, Merry Christmas to all! 

Now down to business. I have been receiving good info from guys experienced with Lipo packs, read here:

""Each of those Turnigy packs has 10 cells in it, so when you parallel 10 packs together to make your 50Ah sub-packs, you not only need to connect the pack positives together and the pack negatives together, you also need to connect each cell connection together as well. The small connectors on each pack are connected to the individual cells, so making up a connector array that these all plug into automatically connects the packs together at the cells level. It also gives you one balance tap connection point for the BMS or charger to plug into. 

Whether you choose to use a BMS or not is a matter of personal preference. I'd be inclined to just balance charge (using the balance connectors hooked up to the charger in the usual way) and then just keep an eye on the overall energy pulled from the pack. If you don't drain the pack by more than about 80%, and balance charge it periodically, then there's little chance it'll get enough out of whack to risk damaging a cell." 

"The wire size may depend on the c rate, I bought some 30c that had 8 guage wires, while 20c had 10 guage. Personally, I was planning on 45 amps max, so I added 12 guage wires to mine to match a 45 amp connector I wanted to use. 

You are planning a HUGE pack though, so you will need to connect the existing wire from the packs to something large enough to carry the kind of current you plan on. So you will no doubt be doing some kind of connecting the packs discharge wires to much larger wire, or buss bars or something. The size of the wire or copper strip or whatever you use will depend on the voltage and amperage of current that will flow through it. Obviously this is not for a bicycle, so you will have to get that advice from the electric car experts. But I can say, the wire that is on the packs will be adequate for connecting each pack to the much larger wire, that will actually be carrying all the current. The pack wiring will be adequate for the current flowing from each individual pack. 

Permanently paralelled packs will need to be connected at both discharge wires and at balance wires, as said above. No harm in upgrading that wire to something that is a bit larger, simply to make it easier to handle." 

Anyone have any input to help me wire these babies together?


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## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

I have a problem, I ordered so many of those Turnigy Lipo Packs my credit card is now declining! LOL.  I tried to call the Visa number on the back and no one is available. Must switch to another card. The problem is you can only order 2 packs (that size) in one transaction. Each shipped seperately. I have 20 packs coming in 3 days! That's only 50AH 74V. Need 80 more packs for 370V. Must try another card.  

Because these suckers are so small I can up voltage to 370V, I might even add two more parallel to get 60AH.

I think I will design my Will incase I blow my self up wiring these babies!


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## Salty EV (Jun 8, 2009)

LithiumaniacsEVRacing said:


> I have ordered one of Turnigy's 5000mah 37V pack. I rushed delivery 3 days, I want to take a good look at it and then I will decide what brand to use. I love the dimensions: 305x54x44mm, long and thin.





LithiumaniacsEVRacing said:


> I have a problem, I ordered so many of those Turnigy Lipo Packs my credit card is now declining! LOL.  I tried to call the Visa number on the back and no one is available. Must switch to another card. The problem is you can only order 2 packs (that size) in one transaction. Each shipped seperately. I have 20 packs coming in 3 days! That's only 50AH 74V. Need 80 more packs for 370V. Must try another card.
> 
> Because these suckers are so small I can up voltage to 370V, I might even add two more parallel to get 60AH.
> 
> I think I will design my Will incase I blow my self up wiring these babies!


I thought you were going to test test a pack out first ?


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## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

I have read enough testing reports on Endless-sphere.com to convince me these packs will do the job. The only hurdle I see is wire sizing which I can replace. I like the idea of a large battery built with smaller blocks that can be removed and replaced easily when a problem occurs. I will send one block to Travis at Manzanita Micro so he can match a complete BMS control system and check the wiring. I still welcome feedback on what I am building, just call my battery pack project Appollo-1. 

Everyone Have a *Merry Christmas! *



Salty EV said:


> I thought you were going to test test a pack out first ?


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## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

I need as much information as I can get while building these mini-packs into one large pack, please feel free to add additional comments to what I am learning on the other forum.  More recommendations from Endless-sphere forum:

"This is the right way to do it. 

Right chassis.
Right rearend. 
Right battery.
Right motor.

This will be the quickest electric car.

As far as the battery goes, paralleled small cells (like you're doing) are the only method to get the c-rates you need. 
A123 has nothing that can come close to the nanotechs. You will have a massive battery advantage over all EVs before you.
Nanotechs tabs are huge, about 3x normal lipo tabs. No worries there.

Being limited to 2000amps on a 50ah pack is going to mean your cells never get warm or be taxed. This is a good thing to ensure years of trouble free racing.

Use no BMS. BMS in a racecar is an extremely bad idea. You want to be able to disconnect your pack and park your car for the winter and not have the BMS wreck your pack. Parallel all balance taps, use an RC charger to manually balance should the need ever arrive, which is doubtful if you're smart and only use the top half of the pack capacity."


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## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

I am learning tons of info from experienced Lipo battery builders, I want to pass this info to anyone interested.

My question:
"I thank you for your insight. I am still confused in regards to balancing these packs? Each 5AH 37V pack comes with two large wires on top (pos & neg) then smaller wires with a connector. My plan is to connect the larger wires in parallel (ten times) to create a row that will be 50AH 37V, then connect that same row in series to another 50AH row, and continue untill I reach 370V. Is this possible? If so how would I balance the cells if I decide not to use a BMS? how would I charge such a large pack? and because of the additional volts and AH do I need to change the large wires (pos & Neg) to a thicker wire? How about the smaller wires in the connectors, do they need to be enlarged?









Please excuse my ignorance, I have never built a pack this way.







:
__________________________________________

The response:

"You would be connecting all the big discharge wires paralell in each 10p block of batteries. Then you would also be connecting all the smaller balance tap wires paralell. 

Paralelling all those little wires won't do anything for you on the discharging side, but it will when charging. Through the little balance wires, each pouch in each pack will be connected paralell to each other. So pouch one in pack one, is connected to pouch one in pack two. All the way through the pack. This way, when you charge, you have in effect, one big 50 ah cell. It would then be possible to balance the entire 50 ah 37v pack when needed. Quite a few methods could be used, such as a single cell charger bringing up the low cells, or a light bulb or hotplate bringing down the high cells individually. 
You will definitely want to break in your individual packs with a few cycles before building up the 50 ah blocks, and then individually test each block for a few cycles to weed out the inevitable pack that puffs. Gotta discharge em somehow, may as well be on something kinda fun like a pitbike. 
All you need for a bms, is a way to balance on the charging side. Then on the discharging side, just monitor voltage. you could do that with one volt meter for the whole pack, or banks of voltmeters for each 36v block, or even use 5s low voltage alarms on each 18v section. But that would be a ton of those alarms to do it that way, and a ton of switches to turn each alarm on on and off between uses."
__________________________________________

All feedback welcomed!


----------



## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)




----------



## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

This pack weighs about 300lbs, each 5AH 37V cell pack weighs 1447grams = 3.19008lbs x 100 packs. Not bad for all that power! 




LithiumaniacsEVRacing said:


>


----------



## major (Apr 4, 2008)

Just one big short circuit. 



LithiumaniacsEVRacing said:


>


----------



## EVfun (Mar 14, 2010)

LOL, I didn't pay enough attention to it. Anyway, all the longer jumpers along the right hand end of the pack shouldn't be there. 

I don't think these will be used in a racing EV yet so it is somewhat new ground. Still, it's best not to start by grounding out the pack.


----------



## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

I just love your posts, please tell us more? Maybe some specifics would be nice! 



major said:


> Just one big short circuit.


----------



## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

I agree. Are you referring to the end positive and end negative on the top and bottom? I am learning, please keep an open mind. 



EVfun said:


> LOL, I didn't pay enough attention to it. Anyway, all the longer jumpers along the right hand end of the pack shouldn't be there.
> 
> I don't think these will be used in a racing EV yet so it is somewhat new ground. Still, it's best not to start by grounding out the pack.


----------



## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

major said:


> Just one big short circuit.





EVfun said:


> LOL, I didn't pay enough attention to it. Anyway, all the longer jumpers along the right hand end of the pack shouldn't be there...


Wow! I didn't either!  I just brushed over the actual connections because there was too much going on, and I've had a busy morning.

If you wire it like that please film the process! 

I'm too tired to try to explain right now, but I might take your pic and re-wire it in a bit - someone will probably explain what's wrong by then. You have some connections that shouldn't be made in there...

Get the engineering principle in your thinking - K.I.S.S.


----------



## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

This might be a bit safer, and a lot more productive.


----------



## EVfun (Mar 14, 2010)

LithiumaniacsEVRacing said:


> I agree. Are you referring to the end positive and end negative on the top and bottom? I am learning, please keep an open mind.


First off a little correction of my post. Where I said "I don't think these will be [...]" it should read, I don't think these have been... 

I am referring to the connections you mentioned and more. On your pack drawing, along the right side of the pack, there are connections between the rows of paralleled small packs. From the top to bottom the long jumpers go from positive to negative and shorter jumpers go from negative to positive. None of the long jumpers should be included as they short out the pack. 

If you study all those jumpers you will see a long jumper goes around the outside of a short jumper. The combination of both jumpers short out each adjacent two rows of cells. I've been known to load test batteries with a coat hanger and a bucket of water, but a short length of stout copper wire is a bit much -- even for me.


----------



## major (Apr 4, 2008)

LithiumaniacsEVRacing said:


> I just love your posts, please tell us more? Maybe some specifics would be nice!
> 
> 
> major said:
> ...


*Short circuit* is specific, if you know what I mean, and I suspect you don't.

And I am not quite sure of the nature of your response. Are you requesting a sponsorship from me? Oh, I wouldn't want to step on Travis' toes.

I'm not sure why I clued you in. I'm sure someone else would have mentioned it before you burned your face off. And I am sure you will have many more opportunities to melt $15k of material into a molten PoS.


----------



## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

Thank you Todd, I am learning everyday! 



toddshotrods said:


> This might be a bit safer, and a lot more productive.


----------



## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

Just curious will this have worked?


----------



## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

LithiumaniacsEVRacing said:


> Thank you Todd, I am learning everyday!


Not a problem. Just be happy Major caught it before you started hooking those wires up.



major said:


> *...*I'm not sure why I clued you in. I'm sure someone else would have mentioned it before you burned your face off...


Because you're a good person. Even though a part of you didn't want to, the good in you prevailed - awesome.  I knew you had it in you!  Also, there are others reading this thread, and we don't want some innocent person to take that first diagram and follow it.



major said:


> *...*And I am sure you will have many more opportunities to melt $15k of material into a molten PoS.


Ron, you really should consider the wisdom in those words, even if they were delivered with a good dose of sarcasm. You have a goal (to race early next year) but obviously have some learning to do. Slowing your pace down enough to really have a grasp on what you're doing is a wise move for your bank account and your physical well-being. 370 volts and 2K+ amps is not child's play.

Having a team that can do a lot for you is okay, but the leader of the team should know what those people are suggesting and doing. In other words, _you_ should understand all this yourself first.


----------



## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

Sponsorship from you? LMFAO! Thanks for the advice.



major said:


> *Short circuit* is specific, if you know what I mean, and I suspect you don't.
> 
> And I am not quite sure of the nature of your response. Are you requesting a sponsorship from me?


----------



## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

LithiumaniacsEVRacing said:


> Just curious will this have worked?...


As a 4th of July fireworks show yes. In other words, you probably would have melted your entire pack down - literally. I'm guessing you would quite possibly have had some physical reminders of the experience.

Edit - just realized that's a different pile of spaghetti wire. I don't feel like following them, but am guessing it would end the same as the first plan - guys?


----------



## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

Todd, as you all know I am no expert in battery management. I do appreciate when help is granted (even though I could do without Major's sarcasm). I never and I mean never bolt anything together unless I am 100% sure I have it correctly. I post what I am not sure of on forums and also talk with people more experienced in battery mangement. In time I will get this all under my belt. I regards to slowing my pace, cannot do, car needs to be completed in time! Again thanks for your input.



toddshotrods said:


> Not a problem. Just be happy Major caught it before you started hooking those wires up.
> 
> 
> Because you're a good person. Even though a part of you didn't want to, the good in you prevailed - awesome.  I knew you had it in you!  Also, there are others reading this thread, and we don't want some innocent person to take that first diagram and follow it.
> ...


----------



## EVfun (Mar 14, 2010)

LithiumaniacsEVRacing said:


> Just curious will this have worked?


_Your second configuration will *NOT* work. You have shorted each 37 volt pack with the one next to it (on both the left and right.)_ In the first case (after correction) you parallel 37 volt strings and place of those strings in series (+ to - with no continuous loops.)


```
+ ---+   n---+   n---+   n---+   n---+   n--- n
  |                                         |   
  |  n---+   n---+   n---+   n---+   n---+  |   
  |                                         |   
  |                                         |   
  |--+   n---+   n---+   n---+   n---+   n--|   
  |                                         |   
  |  n---+   n---+   n---+   n---+   n---+  |   
  |                                         |   
  |                                         |   
  |--+   n---+   n---+   n---+   n---+   n--|   
  |                                         |   
  |  n---+   n---+   n---+   n---+   n---+  |   
  |                                         |   
  |                                         |   
  |--+   n---+   n---+   n---+   n---+   n--|   
  |                                         |   
  |  n---+   n---+   n---+   n---+   n---+  |   
  |                                         |   
  |                                         |   
  |--+   n---+   n---+   n---+   n---+   n--|   
                                                 
     n---+   n---+   n---+   n---+   n---+
```
This is an example of a paralleling 5 strings that are each 370 volts. This way does make it easy to turn the pack back into individual strings with no parallel connections. I'd be a lot more comfortable with the car being that way when parked in the garage. Sometimes stressed Li cells fail shorted and when that happens the other paralleled cells dump power into the short. I'm not an expert on series/parallel connecting of high power Lithium packs (not sure anybody really is at this point.) You should consult with Manzanita Micro or other experienced source to determine the best way to wire up a pack like this.


----------



## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

Thank you EVfun, we are all here to help each other. 



EVfun said:


> Your second configuration will work. It the second case you parallel (+ to + and - to -) 370 volt 5 amp hour strings. In the first case (after correction) you parallel 37 volt strings and place of those strings in series (+ to - with no continuous loops.)


----------



## EVfun (Mar 14, 2010)

LithiumaniacsEVRacing said:


> Thank you EVfun, we are all here to help each other.


 Go back and re-read that post of mine. I got it wrong, and had to make some corrections. 

You where right Todd.


----------



## Guest (Dec 26, 2010)

You have 100 cells at 5ah so in series you have 370 volts at 5 ah. If you connect 10 in parallel you will have a 3.7 volt battery at 50 ah. If you connect those in series you will have 35 volts at 50 ah. 

I am not sure you want 37 volts for your ride. You could do 2 parallel packs for 185 volts and 10 ah. 

But you really need to look at how you connect. One mistake and your career as a race car driver is over. 

KNOW what your doing before playing with this stuff. We are here to help but it is more like we are here to build it for you. I thought you knew enough about electronics and building electric vehicles to tackle this job? Just thinking out loud here but is looks like you don't really know or understand the requirements and to remark on your previous post, it has nothing to do with keeping an open mind. Batteries must be connected properly or POOF goes the pack and maybe you. 

Get a handle on this please. We'd all hate to hear of someone on the forum getting fried because of some stupid ideas. Open minded here can get you killed. I'd love to see this work out for you. It is going to be an excellent year for us all so please be careful. 

I have been working with another that needs to still get a handle on this too. It is no open mined thing, it is what it is and you must respect that. 

Just like gravity, you must work with it, not it with you.


----------



## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

EVfun said:


> Go back and re-read that post of mine. I got it wrong, and had to make some corrections.
> 
> You where right Todd.


I was wondering. I thought I saw too many connections in that one too, but (as I said) I'm really tired today and didn't look good. After you posted Ron pulled the pic, so I couldn't go back and look. Ron, I'm glad you pulled that pic down. You should consider posting something with the other ones that lets people know it's NOT a safe wiring schematic. People need to be really careful with the type of voltages these cars run on.




gottdi said:


> ...But you really need to look at how you connect. One mistake and your career as a race car driver is over.
> 
> KNOW what your doing before playing with this stuff...
> 
> ...


That's why I advocate posting in these threads, regardless of how you feel about the person or people at the center of them. There are others reading and we don't want them to be misled or worse! 

Here's to a safe 2011!


----------



## Guest (Dec 26, 2010)

I will agree with that. But I will add that more homework is needed. Ask questions long before you actually do any thing with the batteries. Ask before you even get them. 

Now lets see, how many batteries to make a 370 volt 50 AH pack? Mmmm. Lets see. 

10 cells connected in parallel for a 3.7 volt 50 AH Battery.
100 of these 10 cell 3.7 volt batteries will produce a 370 Volt 50 AH pack. 

1000 cells are needed, not 100. 

Pete


----------



## major (Apr 4, 2008)

toddshotrods said:


> As a 4th of July fireworks show yes. In other words, you probably would have melted your entire pack down - literally. I'm guessing you would quite possibly have had some physical reminders of the experience.
> 
> Edit - just realized that's a different pile of spaghetti wire. I don't feel like following them, but am guessing it would end the same as the first plan - guys?


Just one big short circuit. 



LithiumaniacsEVRacing said:


>


I was not aware you could erase your pasted in stuff. Good for you. Hide your mistakes.


----------



## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

I am using blocks of ten in series connected into parallel strings. So 10 blocks (10S each block) 5AH each block is 50AH. Once all the 37V 5AH blocks are connected in parallel, you end up with 37V 50AH. My only confusion was how to connect the parallel string into series to get my 370V. Yes if you were to cut open the 37V blocks you we see they are ten cells each, so total individual battery count is 1000, my count of 100 was the blocks pre-package. I post freely my information to get second and third opinions, but i always use a battery builder to assist when the wiring starts. Yes, my knowledge on ev battery systems is limited, but that is changing everyday. 



gottdi said:


> You have 100 cells at 5ah so in series you have 370 volts at 5 ah. If you connect 10 in parallel you will have a 3.7 volt battery at 50 ah. If you connect those in series you will have 35 volts at 50 ah.
> 
> I am not sure you want 37 volts for your ride. You could do 2 parallel packs for 185 volts and 10 ah.
> 
> ...


----------



## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

You see, you learn something new everyday! 



major said:


> I was not aware you your could erase pasted in stuff. Good for you. Hide your mistakes.


----------



## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

I am being very careful, that is why I ask tons of questions and then work with an expert before I move forward and connect anything. My expertise is with racing and building ICE cars, the Ev building world is new for me, but learning and building. 



gottdi said:


> I'd love to see this work out for you. It is going to be an excellent year for us all so please be careful. quote]


----------



## DIYguy (Sep 18, 2008)

miss a few days, miss a lot. I have to say OMG! This is crazy. Buddy!...take a few weeks and do some reading. This is not "battery management" ...this is what my girls learned in grade 6. I don't wanna slow u down...but wholly cow... u need to know more stuff b4 u get to this stage. Even if this all works out ok...ur not going to know what the heck is going on under ur a$$... lol whew...


----------



## major (Apr 4, 2008)

LithiumaniacsEVRacing said:


> You see, you learn something new everyday!


This is just another example of you seeing everything for youself. Yeah, that's cool. But nobody learns from your mistake. Right? Just erase it and it's gone.


----------



## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

LithiumaniacsEVRacing said:


> ...My expertise is with racing and building ICE cars, the Ev building world is new for me, but learning and building. ...


Just from reading between the lines, I have a bit more in depth knowledge of ICE drag racing technology. One of the reasons I keep harping on learning about EVs is it isn't a straightforward conversion from ICE racing to EV racing. Knowing what all the components are, how they work, plus their capabilities and limitations comes in handy.

As for relying on "experts", I'll just say that all the people that I lean on for advice started out by explaining something about the differences of electric propulsion to me and making sure I understood it before moving me forward in my plans. Even the guy (with a PhD in mechanical engineering) who consulted on and machined my rear motor mount, always approached it from the perspective of the electric motor's characteristics. He almost insisted on certain design changes to accomodate the instant-on torque, as compared to the traditional ICE racing engine stuff he normally works on. He showed me places on my CAD model where the torque could overcome the design, and suggested electric motor-specific engineering changes. If they're not teaching me something about what I'm doing, I can't really look at them as "experts"...

As I have stated numerous times before, the stuff I post is for the people that may be reading these posts now and in the future. If you don't think it applies to you that's cool, but it needs to be stated.

Safety first, acquire knowledge, then experiment...


----------



## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

major said:


> This is just another example of you seeeing everything for youself. Yeah, that's cool. But nobody learns from your mistake. Right? Just erase it and it's gone.


I have to agree with Major there. Don't just delete stuff, point out the flaws in it, and highlight the proper way, so others can learn something from it.


----------



## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

Well, if you must continue breaking my balls, I did not know when I removed it from photobucket it would be removed here also. I would love for people to learn from my mistakes. Does it feel good to break my stones every time you can? 



major said:


> This is just another example of you seeing everything for youself. Yeah, that's cool. But nobody learns from your mistake. Right? Just erase it and it's gone.


----------



## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

Todd,

This is where we are different, I know many engineers that love to design new products, but they spend too much time always trying to improve their concept and never build a thing. I build and learn while building. I put the wrench to the hand and find what works and what does not. 



toddshotrods said:


> Just from reading between the lines, I have a bit more in depth knowledge of ICE drag racing technology. One of the reasons I keep harping on learning about EVs is it isn't a straightforward conversion from ICE racing to EV racing. Knowing what all the components are, how they work, plus their capabilities and limitations comes in handy.
> 
> As for relying on "experts", I'll just say that all the people that I lean on for advice started out by explaining something about the differences of electric propulsion to me and making sure I understood it before moving me forward in my plans. Even the guy (with a PhD in mechanical engineering) who consulted on and machined my rear motor mount, always approached it from the perspective of the electric motor's characteristics. He almost insisted on certain design changes to accomodate the instant-on torque, as compared to the traditional ICE racing engine stuff he normally works on. He showed me places on my CAD model where the torque could overcome the design, and suggested electric motor-specific engineering changes. If they're not teaching me something about what I'm doing, I can't really look at them as "experts"...
> 
> ...


----------



## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

Your girlsbrilliant f they can wire 1000 Lipo batteries together. LOL 



DIYguy said:


> this is what my girls learned in grade 6. I don't wanna slow u down...but wholly cow... u need to know more stuff b4 u get to this stage. Even if his all works out ok...ur not going to know what the heck is going on under ur a$$... lol whew...


----------



## major (Apr 4, 2008)

LithiumaniacsEVRacing said:


> Does it feel good to break my stones every time you can?


Does it feel good to steal from my friend every time you post your avatar?


----------



## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

LithiumaniacsEVRacing said:


> Todd,
> 
> This is where we are different, I know many engineers that love to design new products, but they spend too much time always trying to improve their concept and never build a thing. I build and learn while building. I put the wrench to the hand and find what works and what does not.


Wow, I actually started to believe something good was coming out of us trying to help you, until the last few pages of this thread and that post. Sad.


----------



## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

Do you guys want to know what irks me about this board, when someone is in question and asked if he is doing it properly you guys give a moral song and a dance. I have seen this type of behavior all over this forum. The guys with experience give help, but also act like they are above someone getting into the field.

Can you guys just answer someones questions with the correct answer without getting into history, personals, emotions, etc....just help by saying yes this will work, or no that is wrong because.......why the pissing match on every subject? I asked for assistance from the guys on the Endless-Sphere forum, they are polite and helpful. Here you never know what type of a smart azz response you will get.


----------



## Tahoe Tim (Feb 20, 2010)

Seriously, you'd better run down to the grocery store and pick up 100 AA batteries and practice. Your owm posts #38 and #39 tell you EXACLTY how to wire up this pack and you make a comment about doing up a will before you blow your face off. This stuff is not a joke! I fear for your safety and the safety of the drag strip safety crew. Yes, I raced cars for 20 years and wouldn't go on track or stay on track if my equipment was a danger to others. You, my friend are scary.

Major and others are busting your balls for a good reason.

LISTEN!

(I can't wait to see your electrical schematics for the safety disconnects)


----------



## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

Todd,

That is not a personal attack, it just shows how we differ, i would rather test by building than test in my computer. Yes, I do some planning, but never let the planning stop the progress. 



toddshotrods said:


> Wow, I actually started to believe something good was coming out of us trying to help you, until the last few pages of this thread and that post. Sad.


----------



## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

Thats funny, is your friend an artist in Stamford, CT? I have been speaking with many NEDRA GUYS LATELY, most feel the beef is over. So, you are stating you still have a problem with me? You honestly need to get a life and back off. 



major said:


> Does it feel good to steal from my friend every time you post your avatar?


----------



## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

The pack will be built with the assistance of experts in then field, no danger at all. Your comments are not needed. So,where have you raced? Under what name, I know most of the East Coast Drag Racers. I am well known at Raceway Park.



Tahoe Tim said:


> Seriously, you'd better run down to the grocery store and pick up 100 AA batteries and practice. Your owm posts #38 and #39 tell you EXACLTY how to wire up this pack and you make a comment about doing up a will before you blow your face off. This stuff is not a joke! I fear for your safety and the safety of the drag strip safety crew. Yes, I raced cars for 20 years and wouldn't go on track or stay on track if my equipment was a danger to others. You, my friend are scary.
> 
> Major and others are busting your balls for a good reason.
> 
> ...


----------



## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

After reading all these remarks, and downgrading statements, I think I am done with this board. You guys have are just too much.


----------



## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

LithiumaniacsEVRacing said:


> Todd,
> 
> That is not a personal attack, it just shows how we differ, i would rather test by building than test in my computer. Yes, I do some planning, but never let the planning stop the progress.


I didn't take it as a personal attack. You totally missed the point then and now. The engineer suggested changes which took all of a week execute, and the part is on my project now. It was machined and is much better than it would have been because of professional consultation. Being safe and wise does not mean progress has to stop. If you're really smart you design with all that in mind so it can be a part of the process, not a hindrance.




LithiumaniacsEVRacing said:


> Do you guys want to know what irks me about this board, when someone is in question and asked if he is doing it properly you guys give a moral song and a dance. I have seen this type of behavior all over this forum. The guys with experience give help, but also act like they are above someone getting into the field.
> 
> Can you guys just answer someones questions with the correct answer without getting into history, personals, emotions, etc....just help by saying yes this will work, or no that is wrong because.......why the pissing match on every subject? I asked for assistance from the guys on the Endless-Sphere forum, they are polite and helpful. Here you never know what type of a smart azz response you will get.





LithiumaniacsEVRacing said:


> After reading all these remarks, and downgrading statements, I think I am done with this board. You guys have are just too much.


We are what we are, and we are happy with what we are here. If you hate it that much, don't let the door hit you... You really are an arrogant individual. You expect us to change to meet your needs? The good of the one supercedes the many huh?



LithiumaniacsEVRacing said:


> ...Can you guys just answer someones questions with the correct answer without getting into history, personals, emotions, etc....just help by saying yes this will work, or no that is wrong because...


Answer = No.

Nice knowing ya...


----------



## major (Apr 4, 2008)

LithiumaniacsEVRacing said:


> Thats funny, is your friend an artist in Stamford, CT? I have been speaking with many NEDRA GUYS LATELY, most feel the beef is over. So, you are stating you still have a problem with me? You honestly need to get a life and back off.


Just have my friend Chip tell me he is in agreement with you using his artwork and I'll be fine with it.


----------



## kek_63 (Apr 20, 2008)

LithiumaniacsEVRacing said:


> ..................................... I build and learn while building. I put the wrench to the hand and find what works and what does not.


If you are going to insist on learning with a 370volt LiPo pack, please wrap those wrenches before you put them to hand. I'm serious - one Plasmaboy is all the racing world needs.


You wonder why we're breaking your balls?
On Dec. 20th you were certain that a 244v Headway pack was all you would need 
- on the 21st you upped the voltage 
- on the 22nd _"Batteries should arrive in about 1 week, I paid for air freight from China to CT." 
- _on the 23rd _"I have ordered one of Turnigy's 5000mah 37V pack. I rushed delivery 3 days, I want to take a good look at it and then I will decide what brand to use." 
- _on the 24th_ "I have a problem, I ordered so many of those Turnigy Lipo Packs my credit card is now declining! ......... I have 20 packs coming in 3 days! .... Need 80 more packs for 370V. Must try another card. "
- _today you claim we're busting your balls??

Look before you leap,
Keith


----------



## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

kek_63 said:


> ...on the 22nd _"Batteries should arrive in about 1 week, I paid for air freight from China to CT."..._


I forgot about that one. Interesting.


----------



## kek_63 (Apr 20, 2008)

toddshotrods said:


> I forgot about that one. Interesting.



I calls em like I sees em

Keith


----------



## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

Our artwork is not Chip's, stop beating a dead horse. 



major said:


> Just have my friend Chip tell me he is in agreement with you using his artwork and I'll be fine with it and even call off our buddy Jim.


----------



## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

Yes, I was about to order the batteries that day cancelled everything with Headway. Todd, do you have a problem with me? I seen your picture little man, do you need as back slap? Yes, I am threatening you! You, major, and any other pricks that have a problem with me let me know. I love handling problems. We can meet anytime, lets settle this like men, enough of this little weasel computer attack crap. 



toddshotrods said:


> I forgot about that one. Interesting.


----------



## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

You to asswhipe! Do you have a problem?



kek_63 said:


> If you are going to insist on learning with a 370volt LiPo pack, please wrap those wrenches before you put them to hand. I'm serious - one Plasmaboy is all the racing world needs.
> 
> 
> You wonder why we're breaking your balls?
> ...


----------



## major (Apr 4, 2008)

LithiumaniacsEVRacing said:


> Our artwork is not Chip's, stop beating a dead horse.


It certainly appears so. And I think my friend Chip believes it to be so, as of the last time I spoke with him. So to clear this all up, just have Chip post up a statement that your avatar and club logo does not bother him.


----------



## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

I can give a rats azz what you or Chip thinks. Some of the NEDRA guys are decent fellows, some are just weasels like yourself.



major said:


> It certainly appears so. And I think my friend Chip believes it to be so, as of the last time I spoke with him. So to clear this all up, just have Chip post up a statement that your avatar and club logo does not bother him.


----------



## cycleguy (Oct 7, 2009)

Ok, I've read this whole thread and still don't have a full grasp of how to charge all these cells safely. If all the small charging/balance wires coming from each 10s pack are connected in parallel, you would be trying to charge a 3.7V/5000ah pack. Bulk charging any series string without individual cell monitoring HVC is dangerous, especially with Lipo's. You would have to use 100 separate 10s charger/balancers to charge the pack safely.
I just don't see how it's possible to bulk charge this pack, and provide an effective HVC and LVC for each individual series cell.
I think the only way to configure these packs is to wire cells in parallel to the desired ah rating, then wire in series to the desired voltage, just like we do with LifePo4 cells.


----------



## major (Apr 4, 2008)

LithiumaniacsEVRacing said:


> Todd, do you have a problem with me? I seen your picture little man, do you need as back slap? Yes, I am threatening you! You, major, and any other pricks that have a problem with me let me know. I love handling problems. We can meet anytime, lets settle this like men, enough of this little weasel computer attack crap.





LithiumaniacsEVRacing said:


> You to asswhipe! Do you have a problem?


And I thought we were being polite


----------



## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

LithiumaniacsEVRacing said:


> Yes, I was about to order the batteries that day cancelled everything with Headway. Todd, do you have a problem with me? I seen your picture little man, do you need as back slap? Yes, I am threatening you! You, major, and any other pricks that have a problem with me let me know. I love handling problems. We can meet anytime, lets settle this like men, enough of this little weasel computer attack crap.


You're going to back slap me?!? Whew, I'm really shakin in my boots now! ROTFLMAO!!!!  Is this 5th grade on the playground? Am I in a B-rated ganster movie? Too bad you had to resort to physical threats though because you've violated the forum rules and will probably be banned now.


----------



## major (Apr 4, 2008)

cycleguy said:


> to configure these packs is to wire cells in parallel to the desired ah rating, then wire in series to the desired voltage, just like we do with LifePo4 cells.


I think this is what was suggested, but kinda hard to tell


----------



## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

Todd,

Honestly, I'm done with these kids games. If they want to ban me,oh well. You guys deserved what I said. I will see some of you around NEDRA and ECEDRA events in the near future, we will settle these verbal attacks in person. 



toddshotrods said:


> You're going to back slap me?!? Whew, I'm really shakin in my boots now! ROTFLMAO!!!!  Is this 5th grade on the playground? Am I in a B-rated ganster movie? Too bad you had to resort to physical threats though because you've violated the forum rules and will probably be banned now.


----------



## cycleguy (Oct 7, 2009)

Has anyone taken these packs apart to see how hard it would be to rewire them in parallel instead of series? If this could be done, you would be turning these 37V/5Ah 10s1p packs into 3.7V/50Ah packs, which can then be joined in series to get your desired voltage. Once that's done, a regular bulk charger and BMS with LVC and HVC can be used.
Lipo cells demand very strict voltage control and are extremely volatile if overcharged. One overcharged cell out of the 1000 will light up your entire pack as well as the garage that it's sitting in.


----------



## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

It's ten paralleled Turnigy factory packs per string, but the ten cells in each pack are in series. Not sure how a traditional BMS would look at them. I was thinking about getting a few and toying with the idea of pre-balancing them with an RC charger, then checking them periodocally. I can run a few smaller packs in a 48-72 volt system to do some chassis testing and setup. With only a handful of packs, I can assemble/disassemble frequently to see what's going on with them.

Eventually, I will probably run half of what Ron is planning, so occasionally checking 50 packs might not be too bad. That and a good fire/explosion proof box, in case it's not enough?!


----------



## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

cycleguy said:


> ...Lipo cells demand very strict voltage control and are extremely volatile if overcharged. One overcharged cell out of the 1000 will light up your entire pack as well as the garage that it's sitting in.


Maybe the solution is to come up with a BMS board that works like the RC systems do. They constantly do rapid charging, to get their toys back on the track/in the air, and somehow it keeps the ten series wired cells safe. Perhaps someone with the skills can reverse engineer one and then devise a solution that will interface with RC LiPo and conventional EV BMS???

The nice thing about it is you don't need too many. 50-150 boards would handle really serious packs. I would have had that many to monitor a 2000-3000 cell A123 pack, so that's acceptable to me.


----------



## cycleguy (Oct 7, 2009)

The only way to safely bulk charge multiple cells at the same time is when they are wired in parallel. The RC chargers essentially charge and monitor each individual cell in the series pack separately. If you're only talking about one 10s pack, that's not a big deal, however when you string 100 of these together, you would need 100 of these chargers!


----------



## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

You do not need to. The Nano-Techs come with thick plates that do not need upgrading. All you need to do is balance the packs and hook up the BMS is needed. Some of these guys charge 5to 10 packs at a time with no BMS. This comment is from someone experienced in these packs:

"You'll need to connect all the balance taps together, too, which is best done by making up some simple circuit boards with JST connectors. I've used short pieces of 0.1" stripboard to do this, it's pretty much ideal. All you then need to buy are some JST headers and solder them to the stripboard, get some 11 way JST leads and solder these to each bit of stripboard and you have an easy way of paralleling up each pack into your 50Ah sub-packs."

I am still going to work with Manzinto Micro and see if they can balance my packs with a BMS system. Should have the answer Monday. 





cycleguy said:


> Has anyone taken these packs apart to see how hard it would be to rewire them in parallel instead of series? If this could be done, you would be turning these 37V/5Ah 10s1p packs into 3.7V/50Ah packs, which can then be joined in series to get your desired voltage. Once that's done, a regular bulk charger and BMS with LVC and HVC can be used.
> Lipo cells demand very strict voltage control and are extremely volatile if overcharged. One overcharged cell out of the 1000 will light up your entire pack as well as the garage that it's sitting in.


----------



## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

As pissed as I am at you, I must add to your comment because it touches base on my current thoughts. I have been going back and forth with RC charging and balancing systems comparing them to current BMS systems for days. I think the only way to ad a BMS system is working with the balancing leads. This I will hope to get more info from Travis, if they can do it. John Metric (NEDRA) is using a BMS system his ENERLAND packs which are built in series. It can be done!



toddshotrods said:


> Maybe the solution is to come up with a BMS board that works like the RC systems do. They constantly do rapid charging, to get their toys back on the track/in the air, and somehow it keeps the ten series wired cells safe. Perhaps someone with the skills can reverse engineer one and then devise a solution that will interface with RC LiPo and conventional EV BMS???
> 
> The nice thing about it is you don't need too many. 50-150 boards would handle really serious packs. I would have had that many to monitor a 2000-3000 cell A123 pack, so that's acceptable to me.


----------



## cycleguy (Oct 7, 2009)

I see, so what you are essentially doing is rewiring the charge/balancing wires into 50ah/3.7V paralleled groups, which makes sense since you are not charging through the power wires but through the charge wires, which can be configured independent from the power wires.


----------



## major (Apr 4, 2008)

LithiumaniacsEVRacing said:


> Do you guys want to know what irks me about this board, when someone is in question and asked if he is doing it properly you guys give a moral song and a dance. I have seen this type of behavior all over this forum.


You speak of behavior. How's this for an introduction: 



LithiumaniacsEVRacing said:


> The *Lithiumaniacs EV Drag Racing Team* are building a street legal 300ZX that will smoke "White Zombies" record. It also has dual motors and lithium batteries. No details yet. We will run on the East Coast Tracks in 2011.
> 
> GLTA!
> 
> *www.ECEDRA.com*


----------



## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

You can take them apart, but you must then weld each tab back on. Tons of work. The reason I bought "pre-built" packs is to reduce the amount of work and to have a "quick-change" replacement if a cell goes bad. Example: if I get a reading that pack 3 has a blown cell I could remove the battery box cover, unplug that 10S 5AH pack and slap a new one in. You can repair the pack later at home. It look at my design as 100 mini batteries packs that can be removed easily. It is not cheap it is over $200.00 per 10S 5AH pack with 3 day shipping from China.



cycleguy said:


> Has anyone taken these packs apart to see how hard it would be to rewire them in parallel instead of series? If this could be done, you would be turning these 37V/5Ah 10s1p packs into 3.7V/50Ah packs, which can then be joined in series to get your desired voltage. Once that's done, a regular bulk charger and BMS with LVC and HVC can be used.
> Lipo cells demand very strict voltage control and are extremely volatile if overcharged. One overcharged cell out of the 1000 will light up your entire pack as well as the garage that it's sitting in.


----------



## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

And what is wrong with that, did I verbally attack Wayland? NO! Only his record. When was the last time you read the NEDRA Yahoo board? Nice fight lately between two well known drivers. You need to start looking in the mirror.



major said:


> You speak of behavior. How's this for an introduction:


----------



## EVfun (Mar 14, 2010)

LithiumaniacsEVRacing said:


> Yes, I was about to order the batteries that day cancelled everything with Headway. Todd, do you have a problem with me? I seen your picture little man, do you need as back slap? *Yes, I am threatening you!* You, major, and any other pricks that have a problem with me let me know. I love handling problems. We can meet anytime, lets settle this like men, enough of this little weasel computer attack crap.


_emphasis added by me_

I've tried to be helpful and then you go threatening other list members. You really are a jerk, happy new year. *Warning: the link is NSFW!*


----------



## major (Apr 4, 2008)

LithiumaniacsEVRacing said:


> It is not cheap it is over $200.00 per 10S 5AH pack with 3 day shipping from China.


$20k. And what did the hobby guy tell you? Test each one a number of cycles. But who listens to advice.


----------



## cycleguy (Oct 7, 2009)

LithiumaniacsEVRacing said:


> You can take them apart, but you must then weld each tab back on. Tons of work. The reason I bought "pre-built" packs is to reduce the amount of work and to have a "quick-change" replacement if a cell goes bad. Example: if I get a reading that pack 3 has a blown cell I could remove the battery box cover, unplug that 10S 5AH pack and slap a new one in. You can repair the pack later at home. It look at my design as 100 mini batteries packs that can be removed easily. It is not cheap it is over $200.00 per 10S 5AH pack with 3 day shipping from China.


Absolutely the right strategy, my only concern was how to safely provide LVC and HVC. I considering using some of these as well for my next pack.


----------



## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

cycleguy said:


> I see, so what you are essentially doing is rewiring the charge/balancing wires into 50ah/3.7V paralleled groups, which makes sense since you are not charging through the power wires but through the charge wires, which can be configured independent from the power wires.


I don't want to do that. I'm in agreement with Ron on this one. As a racer, it makes more sense to me to find a way to make the BMS communicate with the balancing wires on the factory Turnigy packs. That way, anytime I need to replace a pack I don't have to completely disassemble it and re-wire it. If all the BMS does is monitor and let me know there is a problem with a sub-pack somewhere in the main pack, that's enough. I can stop, dig in, replace that pack, and keep racing.

My reason for preferring the LiPos is mainly because of the power-to-weight ratio, but it seems counterproductive to throw away the advantage of having 50-100 neat, replaceable, sub-packs.


----------



## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

You guys are so full of shit! You help with an added line or two of wise azz remarks. I am a jerk, only when I stand up like a man. Two things you have in life, your word and your backbone! Some of you have none.



EVfun said:


> _emphasis added by me_
> 
> I've tried to be helpful and then you go threatening other list members. You really are a jerk, happy new year. *Warning: the link is NSFW!*


----------



## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

This is very important for anyone using Lipo Nano-Techs, some you may receive (brand new) will not be balanced, they MUST be cycled and balanced a few times before adding them into a larger pack. This is another reason I want a "quick disconnect" for each mini-pack. You might need balance them apart fromthe whole pack once in a while. I am hoping Manzanita Micro has the complete solution for this type of set-up.



major said:


> $20k. And what did the hobby guy tell you? Test each one a number of cycles. But who listens to advice.


----------



## major (Apr 4, 2008)

LithiumaniacsEVRacing said:


> And what is wrong with that, did I verbally attack Wayland? NO! Only his record. When was the last time you read the NEDRA Yahoo board? Nice fight lately between two well known drivers. You need to start looking in the mirror.


I see nothing out of the ordinary on the NEDRA board, except for that imgel38 guy. And I just posted in here to warn you about a mistaken connection. And you end up with a physical threat to me and Todd. 



LithiumaniacsEVRacing said:


> Todd, do you have a problem with me? I seen your picture little man, do you need as back slap? Yes, I am threatening you! You, major, and any other pricks that have a problem with me let me know. I love handling problems. We can meet anytime, lets settle this like men, enough of this little weasel computer attack crap.


----------



## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

I bought some mini chargers that will charge and balance a 10S pack, this is good to balance each new pack that arrives.
__________________________________________

Dear Ronald Adamowicz
Thanks for shopping at our store

Your order details are:
1x #iCharger3010B/11597 iCharger 3010B 1000W 10s Balance/Charger = $229.95
1x #MF_adapters/11756 MEGA-ADAPTER. Connect almost anything to anything! = $4.41
1x #604B-601A/10261 Female Traxxas <-> Male XT60 (3pcs/bag) = $3.55
1x #605B-601A/10263 Female Mini Tamiya <-> Male XT60 (3pcs/bag) = $2.63
1x #601-2PSeries/10264 XT60 Harness for 2 Packs in Series (1pc) = $1.99
1x #601A-2PParal/10265 XT60 Harness for 2 Packs in Parallel (1pc) = $1.97
1x #T-Twins/10993 Twin pack charge lead (2 x 3S)6S w/ XT60 = $1.99

VISA / MASTERCARD (*No Paypal*) + $2.61
EMS Express to USA (MAX 1.5kg) $31.63
Taxes: $0.00
-------------------
Total: $264.13



HobbyKing
[email protected]


----------



## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

LithiumaniacsEVRacing said:


> As pissed as I am at you...


The difference in us is you take everything personal, and make this all an emotional issue about Ron. I have never once attacked you personally. I may have jumped on some facts you've posted to draw attention to the issue and make sure others reading it understood what I had a problem with - so they can make informed decisions - but I haven't posted a word in anger. It's not about me, or about you, it's a public forum - it's about the whole community. In our case it's about furthering the development of EV racing.

I really hate the fact that you may have, or may yet, get yourself booted because your questions and (many) threads have opened very good debates that are good for the community and EV racing sport. So what, someone attacks you (or you feel like someone has). You're a grown man, it's not the first time and won't be the last. Shrug it off and move on.

As for the physical threats: Dude you have two newborns at home. One day you're going to make the wrong threat against the wrong person and not go home to them. The toughest MF'er on this planet can die at the hands of the least threatening. No, I'm not talking about me. I don't fear much, but physical violence isn't the _first_ thing I reach for. After almost 47 years I've learned better ways. I have also known some people who would not have rested until they gave you the opportunity to make good on those threats, and had you raised a hand they would have literally killed you without a second thought. They have nothing better to live for, and don't care whether they're in public, in jail, or in the grave. You should for the sake of your kids.

That's NOT a threat, it's wisdom that I hope will keep a dad in his kids lives longer. It's not for you, it's for them.


----------



## cycleguy (Oct 7, 2009)

toddshotrods said:


> I don't want to do that. I'm in agreement with Ron on this one. As a racer, it makes more sense to me to find a way to make the BMS communicate with the balancing wires on the factory Turnigy packs. That way, anytime I need to replace a pack I don't have to completely disassemble it and re-wire it. If all the BMS does is monitor and let me know there is a problem with a sub-pack somewhere in the main pack, that's enough. I can stop, dig in, replace that pack, and keep racing.
> 
> My reason for preferring the LiPos is mainly because of the power-to-weight ratio, but it seems counterproductive to throw away the advantage of having 50-100 neat, replaceable, sub-packs.


 I'm not saying to rewire the packs, you can create the parallel strings in a junction block where the stock balance plug can plug into without having to alter the 10s pack wiring at all. The junction block would be part of the battery pack enclosure so all you have to do is unplug the connector to replace a series pack.


----------



## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

Like I said they are not cheap, this is for two packs with shipping:
______________________________________________

Payment for the order #2001875254 was accepted.

Order: 2001875254
Name: Ronald Adamowicz
Email: [email protected]
Phone: 8603016813
Address: 33 FrXXXn Street - 06457 - CT - US
Comments: 
Payment: VISA / MASTERCARD (*No Paypal*) + $3.87
Shipment: EMS Express to USA (MAX 4kg) $65.39
Discount: 
Taxes: $0.00
Total: $391.74

HobbyKing
[email protected]

Dear Ronald Adamowicz
Thanks for shopping at our store

Your order details are:
2x #N5000.10S.45/14617 Turnigy nano-tech 5000mah 10S 45~90C Lipo Pack = $322.48

VISA / MASTERCARD (*No Paypal*) + $3.87
EMS Express to USA (MAX 4kg) $65.39
Taxes: $0.00
-------------------
Total: $391.74



HobbyKing
[email protected]


----------



## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

Well, until my first unit arrives I won't be able to agree with you. I thought the cells were plated in series like a Enerland Pack. My first shipment will be in soon (after our blizzard) and I will play doctor battery. I will take picture of how thet are built internally.



cycleguy said:


> I'm not saying to rewire the packs, you can create the parallel strings in a junction block where the stock balance plug can plug into without having to alter the 10s pack wiring at all. The junction block would be part of the battery pack enclosure so all you have to do is unplug the connector to replace a series pack.


----------



## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

cycleguy said:


> I'm not saying to rewire the packs, you can create the parallel strings in a junction block where the stock balance plug can plug into without having to alter the 10s pack wiring at all. The junction block would be part of the battery pack enclosure so all you have to do is unplug the connector to replace a series pack.


That sounds like what Ron said the ES guys suggested. If the 10s pack is still in series, the BMS is seeing it as one cell right? Then it's reading 10 paralleled (10s) as one supercell - or am I still delirious from eating too much this weekend and not comprehending a word you're saying?


----------



## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

Major,Major,Major are you that board you must keep bothering me? Keep reading the NEDRA board, Dube, Berube, and Wayland were not playing nice!



major said:


> I see nothing out of the ordinary on the NEDRA board, except for that imgel38 guy. And I just posted in here to warn you about a mistaken connection. And you end up with a physical threat to me and Todd.


----------



## kek_63 (Apr 20, 2008)

LithiumaniacsEVRacing said:


> You to asswhipe! Do you have a problem?


Yes, now I have a problem with an arrogant bully (who apparently doesn't know how to use a spellchecker).


I calls em like I sees em,
Keith


----------



## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

Im wondering where you got this 370v figure

Im looking at a 410v pack off charge.
LiPos settle at 4.1v of charge.

?


----------



## major (Apr 4, 2008)

LithiumaniacsEVRacing said:


> You guys are so full of shit! You help with an added line or two of wise azz remarks. I am a jerk, only when I stand up like a man. Two things you have in life, your word and your backbone! Some of you have none.


You know? Maybe several thousand individuals pass thru this forum over the course of the couple of years I've been aboard. I've seen one get booted for vulgar behavior. And maybe 2 or 3 get treated somewhat funny, like the eVette guy and pyramid car guy. And maybe a freeEnergy guy or two.

But you take the cake. So several thousand get along. One half of one percent don't. Where do you fit?


----------



## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

You can play this community police bullcrap all you want, i do not buy it. You know how you and your "crew" attack me, I get private messages from friends on this board why i take it. Well, no more.

In regards to your die comments, please save the tough guy talk. I grew up in BPT, CT. We had more murders one year than DC. I have family all over this country including your state, if you really pissed my off and threatened my family your ass would be dragged out your little shack and dragged by Harleys down the street. You do not know me Todd, I am the kind of guy that would give you my shirt off my back, but I am also the kind of guy that would be at your doorstep to handle a problem. 



toddshotrods said:


> As for the physical threats: Dude you have two newborns at home. One day you're going to make the wrong threat against the wrong person and not go home to them. The toughest MF'er on this planet can die at the hands of the least threatening. No, I'm not talking about me. I don't fear much, but physical violence isn't the _first_ thing I reach for. After almost 47 years I've learned better ways. I have also known some people who would not have rested until they gave you the opportunity to make good on those threats, and had you raised a hand they would have literally killed you without a second thought. They have nothing better to live for, and don't care whether they're in public, in jail, or in the grave. You should for the sake of your kids.
> 
> That's NOT a threat, it's wisdom that I hope will keep a dad in his kids lives longer. It's not for you, it's for them.


----------



## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

More bullcrap, how many NEDRA members have been banned from this board? Lets start with Directors, do you need a hint?



major said:


> You know? Maybe several thousand individuals pass thru this forum over the course of the couple of years I've been aboard. I've seen one get booted for vulgar behavior. And maybe 2 or 3 get treated somewhat funny, like the eVette guy and pyramid car guy. And maybe a freeEnergy guy or two.
> 
> But you take the cake. So several thousand get along. One half of one percent don't. Where do you fit?


----------



## major (Apr 4, 2008)

LithiumaniacsEVRacing said:


> Major,Major,Major are you that board you must keep bothering me? Keep reading the NEDRA board, Dube, Berube, and Wayland were not playing nice!


And who has resorted to vulgar language, insults and physical threats on this thread?


----------



## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

Bully?????? I am the receiving party here, the attacks come this direction! Handle your problem! 



kek_63 said:


> Yes, now I have a problem with an arrogant bully (who apparently doesn't know how to use a spellchecker).
> 
> 
> I calls em like I sees em,
> Keith


----------



## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

And????? that would be me! 



major said:


> And who has resorted to vulgar language, insults and physical threats on this thread?


----------



## major (Apr 4, 2008)

LithiumaniacsEVRacing said:


> More bullcrap, how many NEDRA members have been banned from this board? Lets start with Directors, do you need a hint?


Yeah, I need a hint. A list would be better. I do not know of any.


----------



## kek_63 (Apr 20, 2008)

LithiumaniacsEVRacing said:


> Bully?????? I am the receiving party here, the attacks come this direction! Handle your problem!


Like most here claim, I can handle my problems. Just to be clear - the heckling IS directed at you...the attacks are coming FROM you. You have a pretty thin skin for a man of your ambitions.

Oh, by the way, nice avatar!


I calls em like I sees em,
Keith


----------



## EVfun (Mar 14, 2010)

LithiumaniacsEVRacing said:


> More bullcrap, how many NEDRA members have been banned from this board? Lets start with Directors, do you need a hint?


I think you are mistaking this for the EVDL. It's nice of you to include a personal picture as your avatar.


----------



## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

Listen skip the small talk,whats on the agenda?



kek_63 said:


> Like most here claim, I can handle my problems. Just to be clear - the heckling IS directed at you...the attacks are coming FROM you. You have a pretty thin skin for a man of your ambitions.
> 
> I calls em like I sees em,
> Keith


----------



## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

You like my new avatar? I figure since I will be banned soon, might as well go out with a bang!



EVfun said:


> I think you are mistaking this for the EVDL. It's nice of you to include a personal picture as your avatar.


----------



## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

I have only myself to blame for ever getting involved in this nonsense. 

Last time, for the record, and I'm done. I never attacked you, led a crew against you, or had any other motive than to help you go faster than anyone else has in an EV on the drag strip. That was sincerely my goal - simply for the fact that I want to see someone do it and it's not a big priority for me and my project. Since everything I say is seen as an attack, I will say nothing else. Not because I fear you and your threats, but because I simply give up.

The sad part is I'm becoming more and more reluctant to get involved with people the longer I live. When did this become such a paranoid, defensive, society?


----------



## EVfun (Mar 14, 2010)

LithiumaniacsEVRacing said:


> You like my new avatar? I figure since I will be banned soon, might as well go out with a bang!


Well, angry little man with a big mouth seems to fit. I say, go for it!


----------



## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

Todd,

I don't blame you as much as blame Major, but you guys go post for post throwing jabs at me. Everyone can see it, its obvious. I have just come to the point of no return, I hate computer ganstas. Just put yourself in my shoes, 5 guys connected to NEDRA attack me anytime I post. Thats bullshit, these buttercups would never mouth off in my face. My friends have been asking me to stay of these board because it is a set-up. I am also done after tonight.



toddshotrods said:


> I have only myself to blame for ever getting involved in this nonsense.
> 
> Last time, for the record, and I'm done. I never attacked you, led a crew against you, or had any other motive than to help you go faster than anyone else has in an EV on the drag strip. That was sincerely my goal - simply for the fact that I want to see someone do it and it's not a big priority for me and my project. Since everything I say is seen as an attack, I will say nothing else. Not because I fear you and your threats, but because I simply give up.
> 
> The sad part is I'm becoming more and more reluctant to get involved with people the longer I live. When did this become such a paranoid, defensive, society?


----------



## kek_63 (Apr 20, 2008)

LithiumaniacsEVRacing said:


> Listen skip the small talk,whats on the agenda?



According to this and other threads you have started, you are going to build a fast drag car. You have called out the best and brightest. You need EV drag racers for your ECEDRA. I'm trying to point out that, as the saying goes, _"Don't bite the hand that feeds you." _You need the people on this list, on the EVDL and on the NEDRA forum. Why are you antagonizing everyone?


Keith


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## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

Littleman, another jab. You know I am 220lbs and could take you out with one shot, so why the post? You pump cool aid!



EVfun said:


> Well, angry little man with a big mouth seems to fit. I say, go for it!


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## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

I am not, its only the few from this board. In regards I have been speaking with some behind the scenes to smooth things over. Maybe better relations in the near future. ECEDRA has plenty of followers and events, we donot need support from here.

"Why are you antagonizing everyone?"

You should be asking them that question? I feel as if I have a target on my back here.



kek_63 said:


> According to this and other threads you have started, you are going to build a fast drag car. You have called out the best and brightest. You need EV drag racers for your ECEDRA. I'm trying to point out that, as the saying goes, _"Don't bite the hand that feeds you." _You need the people on this list, on the EVDL and on the NEDRA forum. Why are you antagonizing everyone?
> 
> 
> Keith


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## kek_63 (Apr 20, 2008)

LithiumaniacsEVRacing said:


> I am not, its only the few from this board. In regards I have been speaking with some behind the scenes to smooth things over. Maybe better relations in the near future. ECEDRA has plenty of followers and events, we donot need support from here.
> 
> "Why are you antagonizing everyone?"
> 
> You should be asking them that question? I feel as if I have a target on my back here.



Ron, You put the target on your back yourself. You joined an established forum filled with knowledgeable people and in your first post bragged that you were going to best their champion. When you are questioned about any deficiencies or discrepancies in your plan you lash out like a schoolyard bully.
As others have pointed out to you, the burden of proof is on you. When you say that you have ordered 20 battery packs and post an invoice for 2, someone will call you on it. That's the way it goes around here.

Later,
Keith


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

LithiumaniacsEVRacing said:


> 5 guys connected to NEDRA attack me anytime I post.


Neither Todd nor I belong to NEDRA and I do not know, but do not think any other poster to this thread is a member of NEDRA. I simply don't like you because you stole from and treated my friend badly. I have always been civil and never threatened you. I just politely post opinions about you. Big deal. 

I think you got NEDRA on the brain.


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## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

You are a funny dude,do you think I did not order 20? I also have orders in my wifes name:

*Sale date**ORDER ID**Total**Payment status**Warehouse status*27/12/2010*2001880498*$264.13Paid*Processing* 25/12/2010*2001875429*$391.74Paid*Processing* 25/12/2010*2001875254*$391.74Paid*Processing* 25/12/2010*2001875229*$391.74Paid*Processing* 25/12/2010*2001875183*$391.74Paid*Processing* 25/12/2010*2001875155*$391.74Paid*Processing* 24/12/2010*2001874451*$206.48Paid*Processing* 24/12/2010*2001872616*$206.48Paid*Shipped* 
Track UPS: H8769165659 

*Payment approved, order #2001875429* - HOME Account Arrivals Support Contact About Us Hobby Blog Payment for the order #2001875429 was …

[h2]Tracking Detail[/h2]

 Help



*Your package is on time with a scheduled delivery date of 27/12/2010. *

Tracking InformationTracking Number: H8769165659 Status: [h3]In Transit - On Time [/h3]
Your shipment is moving *within the UPS network* and should be delivered on the Scheduled Delivery Date. A shipment can remain in this status until it is delivered. Other than time-definite air deliveries, shipments are generally delivered anytime between the hours of *9am and 7pm (and sometimes later) to residences* and by close of business for commercial addresses. UPS cannot schedule a specific delivery time within that window.


*In Transit - On Time*







Scheduled Delivery Date: 27/12/2010 Shipped To: MIDDLETOWN, CT, US Shipped/Billed On: 24/12/2010 Type: Package Service: UPS SAVER Weight: 2.00 Kg 



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To view additional tracking information, please log in to My UPS.




LocationDateLocal TimeDescription







What's this?LOUISVILLE, KY, US 26/12/201012:59IMPORT SCAN LOUISVILLE, KY, US 25/12/201022:18ARRIVAL SCAN ANCHORAGE, AK, US 25/12/201010:15ARRIVAL SCAN 25/12/20106:08DEPARTURE SCAN CHEK LAP KOK, HK 25/12/201018:13DEPARTURE SCAN CHEK LAP KOK, HK 24/12/201021:12ORIGIN SCAN KOWLOON BAY, HK 24/12/201018:35COLLECTION SCAN HK 24/12/201010:20BILLING INFORMATION RECEIVED 





cs 
»
Your order at HobbyKing, #2001875429 - HOME Account Arrivals Support Contact About Us Hobby Blog Dear Ronald Adamowicz Thanks for …





cs 
»
Payment approved, order #2001875254 - HOME Account Arrivals Support Contact About Us Hobby Blog Payment for the order #2001875254 was …





cs 
»
Your order at HobbyKing, #2001875254 - HOME Account Arrivals Support Contact About Us Hobby Blog Dear Ronald Adamowicz Thanks for …





*cs* 
»
*Payment approved, order #2001875229* - HOME Account Arrivals Support Contact About Us Hobby Blog Payment for the order #2001875229 was …





*cs* 
»
*Your order at HobbyKing, #2001875229* - HOME Account Arrivals Support Contact About Us Hobby Blog Dear Ronald Adamowicz Thanks for …

»
*Payment approved, order #2001875183* - HOME Account Arrivals Support Contact About Us Hobby Blog Payment for the order #2001875183 was …





*cs* 
»
*Your order at HobbyKing, #2001875183* - HOME Account Arrivals Support Contact About Us Hobby Blog Dear Ronald Adamowicz Thanks for …

»
*Payment approved, order #2001875155* - HOME Account Arrivals Support Contact About Us Hobby Blog Payment for the order #2001875155 was …





*cs* 
»
*Your order at HobbyKing, #2001875155* - HOME Account Arrivals Support Contact About Us Hobby Blog Dear Ronald Adamowicz Thanks for …



»
Payment approved, order #2001874451 - HOME Account Arrivals Support Contact About Us Hobby Blog Payment for the order #2001874451 was …





cs 
»
Your order at HobbyKing, #2001874451 - HOME Account Arrivals Support Contact About Us Hobby Blog Dear Ronald Adamowicz Thanks for …





cs 
»
Your order has been shipped out: H8769165659 - HOME Account Arrivals Support Contact About Us Hobby Blog Hello, Ronald Adamowicz This is an …





cs 
»
Your order at HobbyKing, #2001873583 - HOME Account Arrivals Support Contact About Us Hobby Blog Dear Ronald Adamowicz Thanks for …





CHECKER_ROBOT 
»
Ronald, Your items for order:2001872616 have been packed and will soon be shipped - HOME Account Arrivals Support Contact 




kek_63 said:


> When you say that you have ordered 20 battery packs and post an invoice for 2, someone will call you on it. That's the way it goes around here.
> 
> Later,
> Keith


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## todayican (Jul 31, 2008)

Coming from a guy building a car that will never see the high side of 80mph (me), It looks like you have a chip on your shoulder Lithiumanaic, for a guy that looks to have just received a fair amount of free consulting.

Just sayin...


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## EVfun (Mar 14, 2010)

LithiumaniacsEVRacing said:


> Littleman, another jab. You know I am 220lbs and could take you out with one shot, so why the post? You pump cool aid!


Not unless your arms are long enough to reach across the country. You're just banging on your keyboard. You make me laugh. I just came here to "shoot the shit." XOXO


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## kek_63 (Apr 20, 2008)

LithiumaniacsEVRacing said:


> You are a funny dude,do you think I did not order 20? ......................................


Based on your bragging and defensive answers, no. But I will stand corrected when you post pics. I still don't think that your getting my point though.

Later,
Keith


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## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

You see thats incorrect, I always treated Chip with respect. I even spoke with him on the phone. He spoke like a mouse, very suttle, and agreed with me. 10 minutes later he was bashing us on the NEDRA Yahoo board?



major said:


> I simply don't like you because you stole from and treated my friend badly.


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## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

I guess those orders I posted went over your head?



kek_63 said:


> Based on your bragging and defensive answers, no. But I will stand corrected when you post pics. I still don't think that your getting my point though.
> 
> Later,
> Keith


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

LithiumaniacsEVRacing said:


> I always treated Chip with respect. I even spoke with him on the phone. He spoke like a mouse,


Does anyone else see an inconsistency? ....respect .....mouse


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## kek_63 (Apr 20, 2008)

Ron, I see possible orders for 12 battery packs and a charger and one confirmed shipment (for possibly 1 battery pack?). You won't convince me without pics. Sorry.

Keith


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## ewert (Sep 5, 2009)

edit:

Nevermind, the stuff was taken care of earlier mostly and besides I miswrote at first. =P Nothing to see, move on.


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## Salty EV (Jun 8, 2009)

Have you guys seen these! 

http://www.maxamps.com/proddetail.php?prod=Lipo-6500HC-148-Pack&cat=285


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## EVfun (Mar 14, 2010)

Impressive, but how does the manufacturer expect 975 amps to be possible with 12 gauge wires? Even though there is little wire inside them I expect 900 amp loads to result in about 1000 watts of heat from the little 12 gauge wires.


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## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

You talk about respect, LOL!
__________________________________________

You attacked me on every thread I started. Stay out of my threads (sight) and you will stay out of mind. The comment describing Chip was to his nature, maybe I should have said soft spoken. But, even with his timid behavior on the phone with me he went right to the computer and turned computer tough guy - like yourself.












major said:


> Does anyone else see an inconsistency? ....respect .....mouse


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

I am closing this thread as it has deteriorated to something that is not needed here.

Some posts in this thread are in violation of the forum's rules. This is a warning to all users engaging in such behavior. Further behavior will result in punative action against those engaging in such behavior.

Remember, this is a public forum and what is said here can be read all over the WWW and will reflect badly on all those concerned and, unfortunately, on this forum.


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