# Winters Coming



## TheSGC (Nov 15, 2007)

I haven't installed my ceramic heater yet, but last winter I found that I could preheat my car with it on the passenger's seat and plugged it into the wall for 20 minutes and the car would defrost and stay warm for a good 45 minutes. 

I am going to try and remove my old heater core and install the Ceramic and have it hooked up to the Traction Pack or the wall AC so I can preheat without loosing range.

There are 120 volt water heater pumps, like this one: http://electricbluemotors.com/blueheat.html

If my heater core proves as troublesome as yours, the pump is the way I will go.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

Now there's a thought.

Preheating the car before setting off on a cold morning. That I will have to include in my car. I could have a 7 day timer to suit my differing routine.


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## zeeman1953 (Apr 5, 2009)

TheSGC said:


> I haven't installed my ceramic heater yet, but last winter I found that I could preheat my car with it on the passenger's seat and plugged it into the wall for 20 minutes and the car would defrost and stay warm for a good 45 minutes.
> 
> I am going to try and remove my old heater core and install the Ceramic and have it hooked up to the Traction Pack or the wall AC so I can preheat without loosing range.
> 
> ...


Hi TheSGC, the idea of preheating the car did not occur to me and is a viable option. Thanks for the link. I was not aware of this type of product. The heater core removal is not an option. The problem I have is that my traction pack (if I use it) is only 96 volts. What will operating a 120 volt AC water heater do to the heater itself and what will be the quality of the heat be?


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## TheSGC (Nov 15, 2007)

zeeman1953 said:


> Hi TheSGC, the idea of preheating the car did not occur to me and is a viable option. Thanks for the link. I was not aware of this type of product. The heater core removal is not an option. The problem I have is that my traction pack (if I use it) is only 96 volts. What will operating a 120 volt AC water heater do to the heater itself and what will be the quality of the heat be?


That is a good question. My traction pack is also only 96 volts, but it might still work. Contact the company and see what they say. 

Heated water stays hot for a long time, so even if you preheated using the wall and then ran it off the traction pack, it should work for quite a while. It's easy to keep the water hot then heating it up, so I think the pack should do fine with it, assuming it will run on 96 volts.


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## dimitri (May 16, 2008)

Please beware, those 120AC heaters as shown in above posts WILL NOT WORK with DC current. 

They have builtin thermostat which will weld close on DC current, ask me how I know this 

If you can rig a suitable DC thermostat into the circuit, then open up this heater and solder the wires around the AC thermostat to remove it from the circuit, then it would work.

Without thermostat on 120V DC this heater boils the water within few seconds, its really powerful and must be properly controlled.

I think it will work just fine with much lower voltage, like 72-96V and up, since its just a resistive element.

Hope this helps.

P.S. This is why Electric Blue wants you to buy AC inverter to use with this heater, which IMHO is retarded and hugely overpriced solution.

Heater itself is like $30 online ( sorry, don't have the link now ).

There have been links somewhere on the forum to DC capable thermostats sold by electronics retailers, and only cost a few bucks. Make sure its rated for amount of DC current that you will be pushing thru the heater, easy to calculate based on heater's power rating.


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## dimitri (May 16, 2008)

Compare this product http://amzn.com/B000BO8X9K for $35

and this product http://electricbluemotors.com/blueheat.html for $375 , which also includes a $50-$80 pump from any diesel VW , and $10 relay sold on Ebay.

So for $375 you get $100-$130 worth of stuff and they also ask you to buy 2kW inverter for $490, which you can get on Ebay for $200 and don't even need at all if you use DC thermostat.

I hate bashing people on public forum, but I just can't stand so called "businessmen" who can sleep at night knowing they just ripped someone out of several hundred bucks just like that.

And don't get me started on ripping guts from $250 window air conditioner and selling them for $450. Where does this madness end????


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## TheSGC (Nov 15, 2007)

dimitri said:


> Compare this product http://amzn.com/B000BO8X9K for $35
> 
> and this product http://electricbluemotors.com/blueheat.html for $375 , which also includes a $50-$80 pump from any diesel VW , and $10 relay sold on Ebay.
> 
> ...



Yeah, that's a crime. I would scrounge eBay and junkyards first. And possible plumbing stores might be a source. I just gave that as a possible example because it was the first I found.

But I really do like preheating my EV. It saves loads of power, and when I get into it it's all nice and warm, and defrosted. Standard 1500 watt ceramic heater on the seat does wonders when aimed at the windshield. 

Also, someone I think on this forum used 12 volt heated seat covers, which sound like a nice idea, and apparently they didn't use a lot of power.


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## dimitri (May 16, 2008)

I am planning to use something like this
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/12V-...ptZMotorsQ5fCarQ5fTruckQ5fPartsQ5fAccessories

on "chilly" Tampa winter mornings, if I need to.

This should be sufficient for mild climate winters.


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## zeeman1953 (Apr 5, 2009)

dimitri said:


> Please beware, those 120AC heaters as shown in above posts WILL NOT WORK with DC current.
> 
> They have builtin thermostat which will weld close on DC current, ask me how I know this
> 
> ...


The heating element is a resistive element and has its own ohmic value. However if the input voltage is lower (as in my case from 120 volt to 96 volts) than the current will have to rise. What will this do to the heater or is it just a higher amp draw on my traction pack?


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## dimitri (May 16, 2008)

zeeman1953 said:


> The heating element is a resistive element and has its own ohmic value. However if the input voltage is lower (as in my case from 120 volt to 96 volts) than the current will have to rise. What will this do to the heater or is it just a higher amp draw on my traction pack?


No, you will simply get less Watts in heat with lower voltage. So if heater is rated 1000 Watts, you will get less amount of heat proportional to your lower voltage.

Since these heaters are quite powerful, it doesn't matter much, plus thermostat will control how much time heater is energized, so you will end up with same temperature and same amount of power drawn from the pack.


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## zeeman1953 (Apr 5, 2009)

So are you recommending; A) hot water through the heater core or; B) removal (Yech!!) of the heater core and adapting a ceramic heating element within it or C)...........?


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## dimitri (May 16, 2008)

Well, in my opinion ceramic heater is a simpler and cleaner setup, but a huge downside is dash removal, which of course depends on a car type, your skills, etc. Another downside is dry heat, in case you care about it.

Water heater has more moving parts, complexity, etc.

In the end, its your call


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

Also ceramic heaters are completely self contained.

A wet system would need some expansion and pressure relief if it boils, antifrieeze, a volume of water being carried, a pump, could leak, needs topping up. However, it does reuse much of the existing controllers, heating core and plumbing without affecting the installation of the dash.

I am erring on a ceramic heater as I have to rip out a complete air con system anyway.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

In some vehicles the heater core is a biotch to get at and, and chopping it up to fit the ceramic element isn't all that simple either. The liquid heater is pretty easy to plumb. I'm going that direction, the Katz 1500 block heater, Surflo 100 pump, relay from the thermostat to the heating element to avoid frying the thermostat, (thanks Dimitri). Should be less than $100 bucks when I'm done.
I actually hooked up the heater to the heater core and ran it off 120 AC without a pump and it worked well, of course I wasn't driving at the time.


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## zeeman1953 (Apr 5, 2009)

dimitri said:


> Well, in my opinion ceramic heater is a simpler and cleaner setup, but a huge downside is dash removal, which of course depends on a car type, your skills, etc. Another downside is dry heat, in case you care about it.
> 
> Water heater has more moving parts, complexity, etc.
> 
> In the end, its your call


I have with my 95 Geo Metro a blow molded accordian joint-like connector tube between the HVAC box and the air inlet plenum. It's about 5-6" in its major diameter (it's actually more oval than round) and maybe 10" in length. It would not be there if the car had an A/C system as the condenser would be in this spot. Initially I had planned to embody a ceramic heating element at the air entrance to the HVAC box due to its rigidity but thought against it. I couldn't figure out a way to isolate (support) the ceramic element within the plastic HVAC box and keep the heat from melting the HVAC box. Besides it means working deep UNDER the dash but I like things simple. What are your thoughts?


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