# FireBlade AMEV1



## barron (Dec 10, 2011)

Unless you intend to turn the bike into a streamliner, you'll need about 25 horsepower to do 100mph. That will need some very special sauce on the rewind to turn a 5hp motor into a 25hp continuous one!

Then to do that 100mph for 100 miles, you'll need a battery pack that can provide 25 horsepower continuously for one hour.

25hp is roughly 18kW, so that'd be an 18kW pack. But that assumes 100% efficiency of motor, wiring, no internal resistance losses in batteries. So given losses, a 25kW+ pack would probably be a conservative, realistic estimate.

I don't know how you will fit 25kW of batteries into a 250cc motorcycle frame, or meet the 115kg target. The batteries alone would weigh more than that.

Where will you be travelling for 100 miles at 100mph? Is this on a banked oval or the Autobahn?


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## midaztouch (Mar 28, 2011)

barron said:


> Unless you intend to turn the bike into a streamliner, you'll need about 25 horsepower to do 100mph. That will need some very special sauce on the rewind to turn a 5hp motor into a 25hp continuous one!
> 
> Then to do that 100mph for 100 miles, you'll need a battery pack that can provide 25 horsepower continuously for one hour.
> 
> ...


Barron,

I am thinking about a stream line design. I met some of the university guys that are in an automotive club that design streamliners.

As for hp, I feel as though I'm close enough. I will play around with tire diameter & width for rolling resistance to get what I need. 75mph for one hour, then it's time to hit the oval.

Question: Suppose you had 47 - 55 pound of torque. What gearing ratio would you need and rpms to reach the magic # of 100mph? 

Battery size is part of my secret sauce! I would tell but then, I would have to... well, you know the rest?.....I think you will be very surprised at my findings or I will have to go to plan B. 
HINT: When we hit the battery section you will see what I mean buy pulsing a DC motor for low Amps,

I will post some pics tomorrow of the bike being stripped. 

Keep it Clean and Green
Midaz


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## barron (Dec 10, 2011)

midaztouch said:


> Barron,
> 
> As for hp, I feel as though I'm close enough. I will play around with tire diameter & width for rolling resistance to get what I need. 75mph for one hour, then it's time to hit the oval.


Is your goal 75mph for one hour, or 100mph for one hour? It seemed like it was 100mph originally. Tire diameter and width are not the only parameters that affect the rolling resistance of a tire. At 75mph or 100mph (whichever your goal is?) tuning aerodynamics will be much more important than tuning rolling resistance.



midaztouch said:


> Barron,
> 
> Question: Suppose you had 47 - 55 pound of torque. What gearing ratio would you need and rpms to reach the magic # of 100mph?


A mile is 5280 feet.
100 miles is 528000 feet.
Divide by 60 to get feet per minute.
So, 100mph is 8800 feet per minute.
Let's say your tire is 2 feet in diameter (guessing, don't know diameter of this motorcycle's tire), so it's circumference is 2*3.14=6.28 feet.
So you need 8800/6.28=1400 rear wheel RPM approximately

Until you know your actual horsepower requirements with streamlining etc., lets assume you need that 25hp that a typical sportsbike requires. And lets assume the upperbound of the 
torque figure you provided, 55ft/lbs.
rpm = hp / torque * 5252
rpm = 25 / 55 * 5252
= 2387rpm
So gear ratio would be 1400 / 2387, or a 1:1.7, front to rear ratio.

Note, I'm probably getting a little ahead of your battery section that is still to come, but you talk about lowering frequency, duty cycle and 'pulsing' the battery. No matter what the secret sauce is here, independently of that there will be a certain power requirement to have the motorcycle push all that air out of the way at 100mph. So if you are thinking you can cheat physics by 'pulsing' power to somehow lower power requirements, that ain't gonna happen. The power requirements of moving the bike forward are independent of your motor, battery and controller (unless they are six feet wide and stick out like a sail, or you're intending to do this on non level ground). You talk about "pulsing for low amps". Low amps will mean low power, unless you are compensating by increasing voltage correspondingly.


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## midaztouch (Mar 28, 2011)

barron said:


> Is your goal 75mph for one hour, or 100mph for one hour? It seemed like it was 100mph originally. Tire diameter and width are not the only parameters that affect the rolling resistance of a tire. At 75mph or 100mph (whichever your goal is?) tuning aerodynamics will be much more important than tuning rolling resistance.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Barron,

Thank you for the useful info. The magic with this "UFO Motor" is... VOLTAGE is king! It will eventually reach the desired RPMs! You guys with a strong back round in Physics can accept somethings were interpreted a little incorrectly. For example, Lenz's Law vs Regenerative acceleration. But please bear with me. I can fit the batteries on the FireBlade AMEV1. I'm basically scaling up a mini project from/with my team.

I agree with you, we were thinking 1:2 gearing ratio. The back wheel is a standard 17. 

Spent all day cleaning out a space. The 96 CBR250rr is in the house and ready for the clean life! 
Keep it Clean and Green
Midaz


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## midaztouch (Mar 28, 2011)

Had a chance to drop the motor today... Literally!

My phone started ringing when I was lowering the motor with the jack. It seemed like it was in a stable position, so I decided to answer my phone. Then...boom! The oil spilled out every where. Since the bike was underwater, the oil looked like mud

My baby is ready for the clean life!

Keep it Clean and Green
Midaz


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## midaztouch (Mar 28, 2011)

Cleaned my baby up a little to take a pic with her big brother, CBR1000rr FireBlade.

Keep it Clean and Green
Midaz


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## midaztouch (Mar 28, 2011)

Hi guys,

I have a hypothetical question. What if, you could put your battery pack anywhere on your motorcycle. Would putting the battery pack underneath parallel to the motor, be the best position for the center of gravity for the motorcycle?
Or would it effect the stability of the bike during high speed and Cornering?

Keep it Clean and Green
Midaz


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

midaztouch said:


> Hi guys,
> 
> I have a hypothetical question. What if, you could put your battery pack anywhere on your motorcycle. Would putting the battery pack underneath parallel to the motor, be the best position for the center of gravity for the motorcycle?
> Or would it effect the stability of the bike during high speed and Cornering?
> ...


Dont frett about the CG on a road bike ie dont try to get it as low as possible. It should be the same height as the crankshaft was.
Get us some side shots of that roller and I will photoshop it.
That is a very interesting frame especially the swingarm.
You should definitely try to bolt the motor to the swingarm just in front of the rear wheel and pack in the same place as my R1


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## midaztouch (Mar 28, 2011)

RIPPERTON said:


> Dont frett about the CG on a road bike ie dont try to get it as low as possible. It should be the same height as the crankshaft was.
> Get us some side shots of that roller and I will photoshop it.
> That is a very interesting frame especially the swingarm.
> You should definitely try to bolt the motor to the swingarm just in front of the rear wheel and pack in the same place as my R1


Rip

Tomorrow I have some time for the bike. I will take the pics you asked for and post them. Also, I will start to rewind the motor. About 70% more copper

I remember you used the neo's. I'm interested in arc neo's but they are soo powerful. How could I get them placed in the motor? Is there a company I could talk to? 

Keep it Clean and Green
Midaz


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## midaztouch (Mar 28, 2011)

Hey Rip

Her are a few pics of my girl naked. Don't get too excited! You can look but no kissing and no touching!

Not sure how to add multiple pics using an iPad

Midaz


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## midaztouch (Mar 28, 2011)

midaztouch said:


> Hey Rip
> 
> Her are a few pics of my girl naked. Don't get too excited! You can look but no kissing and no touching!
> 
> ...


More pics will follow


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## midaztouch (Mar 28, 2011)

midaztouch said:


> More pics will follow


More pics will follow


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## midaztouch (Mar 28, 2011)

midaztouch said:


> More pics will follow


More pics will follow


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## midaztouch (Mar 28, 2011)

midaztouch said:


> More pics will follow


More pics will follow


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## midaztouch (Mar 28, 2011)

This is the last pic. She a 96' CBR250rr FireBlade

Keep it Clean and Green
Midaz


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## midaztouch (Mar 28, 2011)

Finished winding my home made electric prototype motor!!!!!

He's my first slow test run. 12volts @ 6amps leas acid battery

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=3RvM27NRvYA


Keep it Clean and Green!
Midaz


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## midaztouch (Mar 28, 2011)

Took my motor to Tanaka Electrical Co for tests. I had some mistakes winding and prepping the motor. (I don't speak Japanese very well, so I ordered wrong items) The owner liked my project. He let me use a desk, tools and buy everything I need to rebuild my motor from him. Nomex paper, clear electrical film, electrical fiberglass, 18agw, string, epoxy, and wire varnish with use of the oven. 

Here's a pic of the motor prepped and ready for hand winding.. Again!

Keep it Clean and Green
Midaz


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## tylerwatts (Feb 9, 2012)

Hey Midaz any updates? How physically big is your motor in the frame? Have you worked out the size and weight of your batteries yet and where they'll fit?


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## midaztouch (Mar 28, 2011)

tylerwatts said:


> Hey Midaz any updates? How physically big is your motor in the frame? Have you worked out the size and weight of your batteries yet and where they'll fit?


Tylerwatts,


Last week had its up and then down.... I rebuilt the motor and it preformed very well during testing. (Sorry, I didn't film it. I will next time) I was relieved, proud and excited. After testing, there was a simple but major mistake! ﻿ The motor must be rebuilt again. That's over 20 hours of work! But from the quick testing, I know it's worth every moment!(youtube comment).... 12volts @ 20 amps = 1100 rpms. The brushes needed adjustments and the wires were not locked in the commutators. Also I need to have the motor balanced. ....I will try to rebuild it again this week, maybe

The motor is 16.5 cm x 23cm/ 6 x 9inches @22kg/48lbs. It's fits good on the bike frame. If needed, the frame could handle a larger diameter motor. From earlier testing we should be able to have 30mins ~ worth of battery energy comfortably. It's depends on the driving demand. The batteries will fit just like most, starting were the gas tank used to be. 

Keep it Clean and Green
Midaz


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## tylerwatts (Feb 9, 2012)

Sounds good. Sorry about the rebuild. Will the motor fit under the swing arm Orin front in the frame? That is a nice frame shape. 
Check out Todd's Scrape build, he has a similar motor to yours.


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

tylerwatts said:


> Will the motor fit under the swing arm Or in front in the frame?


I had a close look at Midaz' photos.
If you makes some changes to the suspension you can easily fit the motor under the swingarm and you should really try to do this then you will have massive room for the pack in the frame.
The dog bones frame anchor bearing of the linkage could go in above the swingarm pivot then you can remove a lot of the frame that is under the swingarm pivot to make room for the motor.
Dan


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## tylerwatts (Feb 9, 2012)

Rip/Dan (good to know your name btw)
Are you suggesting he mount the motor to the swing arm? How do you propose power be transferred if not? Tricky but interesting challenge!


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

tylerwatts said:


> Rip/Dan (good to know your name btw)
> Are you suggesting he mount the motor to the swing arm? How do you propose power be transferred if not? Tricky but interesting challenge!


If you can overcome the difficulty of redesigning the dogbone you will have big advantages it terms or space. Definitely worth trying.
Yes motor on the swingarm and then you can use a Tbelt.


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## midaztouch (Mar 28, 2011)

RIPPERTON said:


> If you can overcome the difficulty of redesigning the dogbone you will have big advantages it terms or space. Definitely worth trying.
> Yes motor on the swingarm and then you can use a Tbelt.


For all of the extra work and money, is it truly worth it!? Brammo put it on their bike because they needed more battery space, they have big money and excellent CAD software. Plus, they have a partnership with 3D Systems, the 3D printing company.(3D printing is awesome)

As the battery tech improves, is it worth it to keep the motor under the swing arm? To me it seems like you have a wheelie machine with the motor positioning and WOW torque. 

What is the progression of design

Keep it Clean and Green
Midaz


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## tylerwatts (Feb 9, 2012)

Midaz
For the range and speed you want you need as much battery space as possible so it is worth it. Packaging would not be difficult for the motor, an end plate each side onto the swing arm is all you need. Then you can fit many batteries into the frame. Do you know what batteries you will use? I recommend li-ion pouches or RC packs to give more flexibility in fitting them into tight or obscure places. They should be more power dense also. Look at Jozzer's mx5 build for how he used RC packs with a relatively simple BMS.


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## midaztouch (Mar 28, 2011)

tylerwatts said:


> Midaz
> For the range and speed you want you need as much battery space as possible so it is worth it. Packaging would not be difficult for the motor, an end plate each side onto the swing arm is all you need. Then you can fit many batteries into the frame. Do you know what batteries you will use? I recommend li-ion pouches or RC packs to give more flexibility in fitting them into tight or obscure places. They should be more power dense also. Look at Jozzer's mx5 build for how he used RC packs with a relatively simple BMS.


Im on a tight budget. So I'm look for the best value. I've been thinking about the zippy lipos. They seem like a great value to me. http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/store/__16228__ZIPPY_Flightmax_8000mAh_6S1P_30C_.html

For the BMS, I'm lost in the storm

Keep it Clean and Green
Midaz


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## midaztouch (Mar 28, 2011)

Finished winding my motor. It took over 20hrs! It needs to be balanced.

Keep it Clean and Green
Midaz


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## tylerwatts (Feb 9, 2012)

That looks smart Midaz! How long until it is assembled?


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## midaztouch (Mar 28, 2011)

tylerwatts said:


> That looks smart Midaz! How long until it is assembled?


Hopefully the major tech problems will be worked out by spring... Well, by the end of rainy season in Japan. Rainy season is long and very wet! After that, then we can do some road testing. LOL 

Keep it Clean and Green
Midaz


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## midaztouch (Mar 28, 2011)

Completed rebuilding my motor yesterday. Used 12volts to test the motor. 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nevJC08bW2s

Keep it Clean and Green
Midaz


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## midaztouch (Mar 28, 2011)

Happyyy New Yearrr!!!

Last year had a lots of ups and mostly downs but it finished on a strong up! My prototype motor is finally running well! At 48v @ 36ah OLD lead acid batteries, it ran very fast and strong!..... Nice way to lead into the new year for me.

I'm starting the _New Year_ with the "Battery, BMS and Charger section". I need help! *The target is around 96v @40Ah; around 100ah continuous discharge would we nice!* budget is less than $1800 for all would be great!

Suggestions/thoughts/builders please!

Keep it Clean and Green
Midaz


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## tylerwatts (Feb 9, 2012)

May I suggest rc lipo batteries for your bike? You mention them before. Great density for power and relatively affordable if you build your own bms


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## frodus (Apr 12, 2008)

$1800 for a 96V 40Ah pack is going to be pretty difficult to do IMHO.


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## midaztouch (Mar 28, 2011)

tylerwatts said:


> May I suggest rc lipo batteries for your bike? You mention them before. Great density for power and relatively affordable if you build your own bms


Any suggestion on the BMS for the RC lipos. I like the Turnigy Blue 40c
http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/store/uh_viewitem.asp?idproduct=10308


Keep it Clean and Green!
Midaz


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## midaztouch (Mar 28, 2011)

frodus said:


> $1800 for a 96V 40Ah pack is going to be pretty difficult to do IMHO.


What is IMHO mean?

I spoke to a rep at GEBattery. She gave me a quote of $1800 for 96v @40ah with BMS. What do you think?

Keep it Clean and Green
Midaz


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## tylerwatts (Feb 9, 2012)

IMHO means in my honest opinion. 

What chemistry are their batteries? How does their bms work? Have you got a link to their products on the web? How much will shipping and import cost in addiction?! Sounds like a good pack otherwise.


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## midaztouch (Mar 28, 2011)

tylerwatts said:


> IMHO means in my honest opinion.
> 
> What chemistry are their batteries? How does their bms work? Have you got a link to their products on the web? How much will shipping and import cost in addiction?! Sounds like a good pack otherwise.


This is GEBattery battery pack section:
http://www.gebattery.co/geb/EN/ProductList.asp?SortID=138&SortPath=0,133,138,

Shipping to Japan is $200

Keep it Clean and Green
Midaz


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## frodus (Apr 12, 2008)

That is Lifepo4, not Lipo. 

Those batteries are a little week. <1C discharge rages (according to the power chart below.


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## midaztouch (Mar 28, 2011)

frodus said:


> That is Lifepo4, not Lipo.
> 
> Those batteries are a little week. <1C discharge rages (according to the power chart below.


From GEB homepage, what is a reasonable choice than the lifepo4? The high density batteries are $4800!$$$$(NG for me)

Keep it Clean and Green
Midaz


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## frodus (Apr 12, 2008)

High power
High density
Low cost

Pick two, and only two.


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## midaztouch (Mar 28, 2011)

frodus said:


> High power
> High density
> Low cost
> 
> Pick two, and only two.


High density and low cost are my choices. Suggestions?....

What about the Enerdel packs that Major has?

Keep it Clean and Green
Midaz


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## frodus (Apr 12, 2008)

Enerdel aren't extremely dense like some lipo ... But better than some lifepo4. They're great batteries. 

You'd have to make your own arrangements to ship them.


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## midaztouch (Mar 28, 2011)

frodus said:


> Enerdel aren't extremely dense like some lipo ... But better than some lifepo4. They're great batteries.
> 
> You'd have to make your own arrangements to ship them.


Lipos seem to need some skill in soldering. Ive never soldered

The battery section is very interesting. There are soooo many choices and combinations that it can be a bit overwhelming. I'm looking for a great value!

Keep it Clean and Green
Midaz


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