# High Voltage Lower Current Motors



## frodus (Apr 12, 2008)

REMY HVH250 and a Rinehart PM100 controller.


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## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

lost953 said:


> We are building a EV formula 1 style car and are searching for a motor that fits our constraints which are about 300V and 300A.
> We have looked at some like the Warp 11 HV but it would be a waste to run it at the power levels we can use, also it is very heavy at 220 lb. Does anyone know of any motors that run around these power levels and aren't so heavy? DC or AC we don't have a controller yet so we can go either direction.
> 
> Thanks


Kostov makes a range of neutrally timed, series DC motors wound for up to 250V (more specifically: the K11 and K11 Alpha motors).

The above Remy/Rinehart combo is nice - from what I hear - but strictly limited to 100kW peak.


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## ruckus (Apr 15, 2009)

The Scott Drive 100 is 400v x 400A = 160kva.

The Scott Drive 200 is 400v x 600A = 240kva.

The Scott Drive 250R is 400v x 900A = 360kva.

Are you wanting 300A peak or continuous? 

Cheers


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## Hollie Maea (Dec 9, 2009)

Tesseract said:


> Kostov makes a range of neutrally timed, series DC motors wound for up to 250V (more specifically: the K11 and K11 Alpha motors).
> 
> The above Remy/Rinehart combo is nice - from what I hear - but strictly limited to 100kW peak.


Rinehart also makes a 150 kW inverter, which the Remy motor can handle fine. Expensive, but it is perhaps the best AC system out there


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## EVCan (Oct 11, 2012)

TM4 CO150 is compatible with Remy HVH250 and more powerful - yet less expansive - than Rinehart. 

Mission Motor also has a powerful motor controller on trial. Not sure if they sell to everyone however and not sure of the price: http://ridemission.com/mc600-evaluation-program/

You should contact them.


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## ruckus (Apr 15, 2009)

These controllers are the same power as the Scott Drive 100 at 3-6 times the cost. The fact that they rate it at 150kw is wishful marketing. There is a huge difference between 150kva which denotes gross input power and 150kw which implies actual motive force. Regardless, a 100kw controller is not 'race' power unless you are running a very light car. But let's pretend you need 100kw output to be competitive.

The first thing you should ask when someone gives a controller rating is, "at what temperature and voltage, and for how long?" 

The IGBT output is strongly affected by temperature. Here is a graph showing this relationship:










Plenty of companies out there would rate this as a 450A controller. That is quite misleading. The internal temp of the IGBT increases in a fraction of a second under high load. At a reasonable high output temp of 70C (168F) the IGBT is rated at 374A. Considerably less.

The other major factor is voltage sag. Depending on the batts you choose this can be formidable. For example, at 12C the CALB's sag to about 2.25v. So even if you start at 400v full resting (120 batts at 3.33v), under high load you will be down to a paltry 270v.

Taking the above figures you get 270v x 374A = 101kva gross input.

Since electric motors are less efficient under high load and high temps, even a BLDC that starts out at 95% efficiency will be less under high load (not to mention the plummeting voltage). If you combine all the inefficiencies of the system (wiring, controller, motor, drive train, tires) you will be looking at 80-85% of the gross input. So now you are out on the track and your 'race' car is putting out about half of what you expected. Ugggg.

You need to predict this ahead of time and upsize the controller from the start. The next size up IGBT (600A nominal) is rated at 512A at 70C (168F). In fact even if you have a cooling system failure it will still put out over 400A at BOILING (100C, 220F). This is a much safer bet in a racing environment, especially when you consider this increased power and temperature resistance comes at a weight penalty of a few ounces.

So now you are at 270V x 512A = 138kva x 80% = 111kw output. Ahhh, now you are meeting and exceeding your 100kw target, blowing past the folks who thought a '150kw' controller would make them competitive.


Cheers


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## Hollie Maea (Dec 9, 2009)

What's the price of the TM4 you mentioned? And is anyone selling it to individuals?


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## EVCan (Oct 11, 2012)

Hollie Maea said:


> What's the price of the TM4 you mentioned? And is anyone selling it to individuals?


They asked not to post it on the web so I will respect that. Just contact them via their website and they will give it themselves.


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## ruckus (Apr 15, 2009)

They did not tell me not to post it. Here are the prices I was given to save you a long distance call.

Motive A system (37kw cont.): $8,553 USD ($231/kw)
Motive B system (54kw cont.): $13,081 USD ($242/kw)
co150 controller: $6,037 USD


For comparison, here are the Scott Drive prices:

Scott Drive 100 system (35kw cont.): $6,880 USD ($197/kw)
Scott Drive 200 system (60kw cont.): $8,220 USD ($137/kw)
Scott Drive 100 controller (180kva peak): $3,420 USD


Those TM4 stickers must be really expensive.


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## EVCan (Oct 11, 2012)

Why are those OEMs suppliers like Remy, UQM and such are more expansive? From what I know of technological business admin it’s probably the cost of validating their products based on industry standards, developing their own motor/controller technologies (filing patents, R&D investment), setting up production lines, getting their ISO certifications in order to qualify as an OEM supplier, marketing expenses, etc. 

Regarding Dr. Scott, its product and its technologies, you can't find information about any of this.

Don't get me wrong the Scott Drive seems to be a very good and affordable solutions for DIY projects, but it does not make it the greatest product in the world. If you stop thrashing everything else will probably help you get taken more seriously.


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## ruckus (Apr 15, 2009)

EVCan said:


> Regarding Dr. Scott, its product and its technologies, you can't find information about any of this...
> If you stop thrashing everything else will probably help you get taken more seriously...


1. You can always pick up the phone and give me a call if you want more info. If that is too much trouble, shoot me an email or contact me through the web form. You are thinking a strong web presence means better technology?

2. What 'thrashing' do you refer to? I would never think of such a thing. I am sure their product is quite fine. However, it is not the best kw/$ available.

Cheers


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## ruckus (Apr 15, 2009)

EVCan said:


> Why are those OEMs suppliers like Remy, UQM and such are more expansive? From what I know of technological business admin it’s probably the cost of validating their products based on industry standards, developing their own motor/controller technologies (filing patents, R&D investment), setting up production lines, getting their ISO certifications in order to qualify as an OEM supplier, marketing expenses, etc.


Yes. Do you want to pay for a company to file patents to prevent competition and do elaborate web marketing?

Or would you rather just pay for the product?

Your choice.


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## EVCan (Oct 11, 2012)

Well maybe I'm dumb, but if I had this much to spend I'd spend it on proven stuff. The kw/$ would not be the key criteria for me. But thats just me. 
Let's keep this discussion in the Scott Drive thread in order not to pollute this one.


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## ruckus (Apr 15, 2009)

EVCan said:


> Well maybe I'm dumb, but if I had this much to spend I'd spend it on proven stuff.
> Let's keep this discussion in the Scott Drive thread in order not to pollute this one.


Umm.. this is a thread about 300+ voltage motors/controllers. Discussion of the Scott Drive seems rather appropriate. 

As to the definition of 'proven', I guess that is up for debate.

You can pay premium $$$$ for corporatocracy if you want. Others will delight that Joe Normal is beating them at their own game for less. 

Isn't that how Capitalism is supposed to work?


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## jibzip (Jan 23, 2013)

ruckus said:


> Umm.. this is a thread about 300+ voltage motors/controllers. Discussion of the Scott Drive seems rather appropriate.
> 
> As to the definition of 'proven', I guess that is up for debate.
> 
> ...


This thread is, however, about a high performance racing application. The Scott motor is simply inappropriate when the 'formula 1' style race car is what we're talking about here.

Now, as I am looking for the exact same motor as our OP, I would appreciate some more useful options such as those that EVCan and frodus have recommended. My research has led me to the Emrax motor mentioned in an unrelated thread. That motor has been successfully implemented by Univ. Kansas FSAE team as a rear-drive pair. Similar research has led me to an AMK setup as popularized by winning European FSAE/FS teams such as TU Delft, and Uni Stuttgart. However, again, these motors are used in tandem utilizing a 'software differential' or even more complicated control software. One last promising motor is the YASA-750.

As far as motor controllers suited to this application, I have stumbled upon the Sevcon Gen 4 Size 8, which boasts similar features to the aforementioned controllers.


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## EVCan (Oct 11, 2012)

EVO Electric has several motors that were used for motorsport. 

http://www.gkndriveline.com/drivelinecms/opencms/en/solutions/edrive-systems/emachines.html


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