# SSE CozE Electric Trike - Lithium questions



## Yabert (Feb 7, 2010)

Good mechanical work! I like your trike.
Your best bet for your two 67,5v battery pack (18 cells in series, right?) is to connect each 45Ah cells in parallel and after connect your new 67,5v and 90Ah battery (126 lbs) to your system.
I've TIG welded copper bar between each Volt cells with success.

You can bottom balance your battery and never discharge bellow around 60v to be sure to don't destroy your pack (alltrax limit or driver looking at voltage).
To don't over charge, stop the charger at around 74v.
Theoretically with this kind of set up, your pack will be safe... up to the moment when a problem happen with your charger and after destroy your battery  (I'm for a minimal BMS)


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## dain254 (Oct 8, 2015)

I think from what I'm seeing they are more like 75V nominal - I could certainly be wrong which is why I'm asking! I have no opposition to a minimalist BMS. Currently I do not own a charger that will do lithium except a small hobby charger. Is there something out there that would be half way plug and play? I'm a total newb to electrical circuits and always find a way to wire things incorrectly!


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## Yabert (Feb 7, 2010)

dain254 said:


> I've heard of people using these with no BMS and switching between modules like a dual fuel tank setup so as never to over discharge.


I forget to mention, do this simply double the chance to destroy the battery. Bad idea


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## dain254 (Oct 8, 2015)

Looking for suggestions for specific products already out there for utilizing volt or leaf modules... Can someone build and sell me a pack and a charger? I have cash! If I can't make any progress I am going to scrap the electric drive for a motorcycle engine.


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## Jayls5 (Apr 1, 2012)

I don't know what you want your peak charge voltage to be... mine's 84v max and 74v nominal. I bought a 900w series charger from BMSbattery.com and just told them my voltage and battery requirements. It has held up so far. My only criticism is the lack of an internal soft-start turn on... it sparks a bit when you initially plug it in the power outlet. Shipping was expensive, but it did arrive relatively fast for being across the world.

It's a good "overnight" charger for packs that are less than 10 kWh.


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## dain254 (Oct 8, 2015)

I'm really not looking to do anything BUT overnight charging - as I mentioned this vehicle will see 20-30 miles max/day, w a 10kw pack I can likely get 60 miles or so. Thanks for the suggestion on the charger. 

As for voltage - Anywhere from 72-85 nominal will be fine - the controller and motor should be fine with a few extra volts, and if I'm a little above 72 it will give me a little more zip! Isn't nominal on a 4kwh Volt module 75V? If I can't get much more performance out of my ME1003 I'll get a bigger motor/controller and go to 120V or so. Would prefer to be able to do smoky silent burnouts!

Another option I've been looking at is a set of 3 Tesla model S modules - they are 24V/piece and apparently have their own individual BMS. It is overkill on capacity at 16.5kwh, but I wouldn't complain if I can drive to work for an entire week before having to charge! Thanks for the input so far guys!


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## Yabert (Feb 7, 2010)

Hi dain

I understand your challenge. It's hard to perfectly understand every electric bits when you are more mechanically inclined.
In your case, I think you have two choices: Volt cells or Leaf cells
The first things you need to know is those cells type have a nominal voltage of 3,75v and a full charge voltage of 4,2v (stop charge at 4,15v is recommended). The large part of the useful capacity is between 4,15v and 3,6v.

1- Volt cells. With two 18 cells block you can build a 18S and 2P battery to have a 67,5v nominal and 90Ah (6 kWh). The voltage after fresh charge will be 75v.
You will need to connect the two 18S block in paralele like I've done* (pic).

2- Leaf cells. With 10 rectangular can (7,5v nominal each), you can build a 20S and 1P battery to have a 75v nominal and 60Ah battery (4,5 kWh). The voltage after fresh charge will be 83v.
If the capacity isn't enough for your range, you can double the cells and connect it in paralele to obtain 75v 120Ah (9 kWh).

In ether way, I suggest you a simple BMS like the mini BMS. That will cost you 300$, but will save your battery** many time at some occasion despite if you don't understand what happen (learning progress).
As charger, almost every 72v charger will do the job if the BMS stop the charge.
A cheap and simple 1000w or 1200w charger at BMS battery dot com will ''quickly'' charge your battery from a 120v outlet.

*Note: solid copper bar is easier to weld. 24S shown.
**If correctly wired.


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## dain254 (Oct 8, 2015)

Excellent information - I think that the 67.5 nominal would work very nicely for my application at the 6kwh. This would give me 36 cells that need to be monitored by a BMS? Again, I'm certainly not against a BMS I was just curious on how to hook it up and how I know it is working!

I'm still trying to wrap my head around the wiring - I don't have a place in my vehicle where I can wire like you have shown. What is the reason why I can't create 2 stand alone banks and tie them together with 2 wires from + to + and - to -? OR run the batteries seperately and mechanically switch between them?

4.5KWH for the leaf I think is barely not enough and 9kwh is going to be more than I want to spend. However, if I switch motors I will go higher voltage, so I would be looking at [email protected] 60ah giving me just over 7kwh, THAT might be enough!

Thanks again!


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## Jayls5 (Apr 1, 2012)

Since you're direct drive, your only two ways to increase speed is to change gearing or increase running voltage. Since the motor can handle it, I would pick out a the highest voltage pack that your motor/controller will handle properly. Your controller has an absolute peak of 90v, and your motor can definitely handle 75-80v continuous operation at the right current levels. When my pack is getting near 60-80% DOD, it's noticeably slower in my in-town cruising gear (2nd). I upshift to 3rd to lower the motor RPM to a range that decreases back EMF and allows more current (thus torque) again. You don't have that option, so do the highest voltage you can from the start. 

If I was in your shoes and had no transmission, I would be buying another ME1003 & matching controller. I see it might require rewelding that cross-beam support to mount it, but it would be *so* worth it. Throw the same chain/sprocket on the other side of the wheel. If the new motor is flipped in direction... just turn the brush holder to the other side and swap polarity (make sure you seat the brushes).

You could do continuous 400A (between both motors) and awesome bursts of 600-700A for brief acceleration. You would finally have the power with steeper gearing to get the speeds you were originally looking for. You just want a pack size that can handle the C rating. 

Also, I would invest in a 200mm intake filter like this:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Universal-A...ash=item3f47a4a4a7:g:owAAAOSwyQtVkmOg&vxp=mtr

There are a few different filter color options if that one isn't appealing to you... just look up the same name and sort by price. 

Remove your back cover, and bolt that thing on.

Your frame is very open with motor low to the ground. This would keep dust or sand from getting pulled into the commutator and under the brushes and ruin your motor. Good investment.


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## dain254 (Oct 8, 2015)

I've already got a friend working on a battlebot that wants to buy my ME1003, so I will simply sell my first one to fund a single larger motor that I will mount to the chassis instead of the swingarm. something like a D&D ES31-B which puts out around double the power. If you have any other recommendations for motor/controller combos that would give me about 60hp with the 96V or the 120V Volt modules - please share! I would also like to be able to do smokey burnouts... so if you don't believe 60hp is enough I'll use something larger! I'd prefer something with a built in contactor AND reverse... I've had the thing on fire twice trying to wire it and am sticking with my mechanical switch. 

The mechanical aspects of gaining more speed I'm very familiar with, add voltage and sprocket teeth. It works to a point, but with direct drive it's a balancing act of having enough acceleration and top speed. More volts will certainly help, I was wondering what that ME1003 can handle and figured I could push it to 80 or 90V. 

I'm still curious on wiring the batteries together in parallel. It appears that a person can pull a huge amount of amps (up to 900A for a short burst on the 5kwh 120V module). I would prefer to keep my wiring as minimal as possible, could I wire it in a way where I can just draw off of a single pack at a time?


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## Jayls5 (Apr 1, 2012)

Hypothetically, _if_ you go with a series wound motor like you mentioned _and_ it had enough power/voltage to break traction, you will need to find a way to monitor the RPM and limit it. With your ME1003 motor, the permanent magnets generate enough back EMF to limit the RPM in low (or no) load conditions. 

There's no strictly defined relationship between voltage and motor speed on the series motor. If you lower the load significantly (burnout with minimal friction), the motor speed will increase significantly. This is fine as long as you don't go over its max RPM and grenade the thing. The way to guarantee that doesn't happen is through RPM sensing and current limiting.

One of the reasons I didn't go with one is based on the off chance the transmission popped into neutral at WOT... my controller doesn't RPM sense or have a simple way of dialing back current in response to that. I'd have to rig up some stupid RPM sensor of my own and integrate that into my throttle loop somehow like with an arduino microcrontroller. I would have to worry more about over-speed, since a free spinning motor in neutral is way less load than a burnout, but it's something to be aware of. I just don't want you to mechanically rip apart a motor when you finally get the power you desire because of that oversight.

That being said, the motor you listed is claimed to have 72 ft-lbs torque peak. I can't find the actual datasheet, but that's what's advertised everywhere. The ME1003 has a torque constant of 0.2 nm/A, which means 59 ft-lbs of torque at 400A (peak) and about 29.5 ft-lbs torque (continuous) respectively. Double motor setup would be 118 ft-lbs peak & 59 continuous. It would feel pretty zippy with that, maybe do burnouts if you geared it lower. Weight for 2x ME1003 would be the about same as the D&D motor after all the components.

You're going to have a rough time getting burnouts out of any direct drive vehicle capable of highway speeds at your price point.

In regards to batteries: You do not want to use one pack at a time and swap back and forth like a double gas tank. By doing so, you basically tax each battery pack twice as hard for no good reason. You put twice the load on the cells, meaning more voltage sag, meaning less acceleration and top speed. In addition, there is _some_ Peukert effect on lithium at high loads. You will lose a bit of usable capacity at higher C discharge, possibly even get less overall life of the cell. It's pointless to lose when you have another set of batteries right there ready to share the load.

If you're already starting fires with a lead acid setup at low voltage and you're not sure why, I would be extremely hesitant to consider going up to the higher voltage systems that can begin to pose a real danger of electric shock. You should post pics of how you're wiring it to cause that issue and maybe we can guide you through it. If I had your ride, I'd probably opt for a 144v controller and a 9" series motor like a used Warp 9 to stay at a low price point and have higher efficiency than the smaller diameter D&D motor.


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## dain254 (Oct 8, 2015)

When you mention your fear of "over revving" a motor, you are way overthinking what I would consider a non-issue. If you shift any car into neutral and continue to floor it there is risk to damaging the engine. On the extremely unlikely chance it happens to grenade somehow, I've blown engines before I'll get another one. 

Dual motors is not something I am even going to consider, it is double the wiring and double the hassle, double the brush wear, 2 controllers, 2 chains to mess with (1 is loud enough) - gives me no advantage over the single correctly specified motor. 

I root caused my fire back to installing my precharge resistor backwards and not having a fuse between it and the throttle. The switch in the throttle pedal is what went up in flames. I still use the burnt throttle box, works great!

Ideally for a motor I would be able to use a brushless motor and mount it where my ME1003 is - the issue being I haven't been able to find one that is double the power for a reasonable price. The ME1115 gives me another 10hp up to 40, looks like it is the same torque and slightly higher RPM so I can gear down a bit to gain more acceleration... coupled with a pair OR single 4kwh (96V) Volt module and I would get the same distance but accelerate much faster and probably gain a little top end like I'm looking for! If I end up needing 2 BMS's to run the modules in parallel so be it, I'm trying to figure out a solution for this thing so I can build something else!

Ideally I'd like to be around 10kwh and 60hp, but 4 or 8 and 40hp coupled with dropping 400lbs from the car would certainly be an improvement!


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## Yabert (Feb 7, 2010)

dain254 said:


> ... something like a D&D ES31-B which puts out around double the power.


Unfortunately, things don't work like that. Those small 6,7'' serie wound motor are not efficient under load, so despite if you can have more torque at low speed, the peak power will remain the same or lower than with your actual ME1003.
You have similar problem than Jayls5. See here: http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showthread.php?t=166490

You have many choices at this moment, but the cost could be different:

1-Sell your me1003 motor and find a 8'' or 9'' serie wound motor. Same alltrax controller, ~72v battery systems. Few $$$

2-Add a me1003 motor coupled with your actual motor. Same alltrax controller (1 only for two motors), ~72v battery systems. Few $$$

3-Scrap all and buy a HPEV AC-20 96v system. That will give you over 80 lbs-ft or torque and 60hp, but that cost 3K$

Personally, I think that despite if you put a 60hp system in your trike, you will still want more power later. So maybe simply find a used 8'' or 9'' forklift motor , go lithium, have fun with your 800 lbs trike, learn... and by this time, start to design you next 150 hp electric trike


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## dain254 (Oct 8, 2015)

Thanks for the ideas so far - the next vehicle project I am going to find a salvage Leaf, move the transaxle to the rear and build a tube chassis forward making something resembling an Ariel Atom, only electric! Should get along nicely if I can keep the weight to 1700-1800 lbs. I know that electric driveline can be tampered with to kick out more power too!

The purpose of this vehicle is not to be a speed demon, like I've mentioned before it is damn near good enough the way it is. What specific forklift motor are you referring to? 72V with lithium would work well, I could also go 96 and gain a couple KWh... I already have my ME1003 sold and can easily eBay the two 450A controllers I have. 

Is there a controller that integrates the contactor and reverse?

Thanks!


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## Vanquizor (Nov 17, 2009)

One thing that hasn't come up (likely because of budget involved) battery voltage and motor voltage do not have to be the same. You could easily have a higher voltage battery to get the capacity you wanted (say 36 in series as opposed to 2x18 in parallel) giving a nominal pack of 135V or ~150V hot. This would allow the chargers contactors and monitors designed for 144V lead to be used keeping them cheap.The key ingredient would be a controller that allows you to limit motor voltage. 

For example in my current build I am running a ~360V pack but using the controller to limit motor voltage to 180V. This has a few benifits- your battery side wiring can be smaller, you are only dealing with 1 string of batteries (which can be located in various spots), and your performance doesn't drop off as much when your pack is at a lower state of charge.

I know Zilla, Soliton and WarP-Drive all have this feature. I'm not sure if this is something allready built into Open ReVolt but I am certain it could be (even just a crude cap on max pulse width would do it) and that would keep controller costs inline with the alltrax.

Last thing tire smoking is all about torque at the wheel and available grip. You should know enough about your vehicle to find out accurately what it takes but I'll guess

Weight on drive wheel ~500lbs
Coefficient of friction tire to surface ~.9
Radius of wheel ~1ft

500*.9*1= 450ft lbs to break traction

Your 1003 had ~65ft lbs @450amps so you'd need about a 7:1 sprocket ratio to spin the tire. Not sure what you were running but you can do similar math for whatever motor you choose.


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## dain254 (Oct 8, 2015)

Budget I'm not super concerned about... I will spend the money to get what is necessary within reason. I definitely like the idea of a hotter battery pack and limiting Voltage at the controller! These are the kind of ideas I was hoping would be floated across when I started this thread, very clever! 

Looking like a Leaf module comes in a 175V pack which would give me slightly north of 10kw... that would be way plenty

Tire spinning: I'm running a 4.16:1 to get my 55mph at 3500 motor speed... can get to maybe 52 on flat with the wind... gearing up or down 1 tooth only gives me 48-50, so the 12T/50T combo is the sweet spot for the vehicle as is. My estimate of doubling my power is a pretty close guess to your friction calculations. 

Say I jump to the ME1115 brushless motor, is there a controller for that which can limit voltage like you are talking about? I'd like to keep the same motor mounting configuration only because it's convenient - if I have to chop cut rebuild, not a huge problem either. I'd prefer the controller to have reverse built in as well!

I will need to buy a charger no matter what I do, I'm using 2 48V golf cart chargers to charge the thing now,


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## dain254 (Oct 8, 2015)

After checking prices and dimensions - I think a single 5KWH Volt module is in the cards - it's 120V - would fit nicely in the nose of my vehicle. 

Single 120V volt module, what BMS and charger (overnight charge is fine) would be recommended? (assuming the Chevrolet BMS can't be used.. can it?)? 

What controller could power an ME1115 that has built in precharging, voltage limiting, and reverse?

My last resort is to switch to the "forklift" motor, but if that were what was necessary what specific controller could I use w the 120V pack?

Thanks everyone for your help!


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## Vanquizor (Nov 17, 2009)

The ME1115 is a brush less motor- you are looking at a significantly more complex controller, however it will likely handle 120V with no issues. It also has less torque than the ME1003 so that would be a step backwards in the tire smoking department.

With the 120V pack using chevy volt cells you are limited to about a peak of 675amps discharge and should probably limit it to 450 for longevity. 

For a no brainer setup using that pack I would consider a Zilla1k with a 9" motor. You'll add a hundred pounds of motor/controller over the old setup save a couple hundred in battery and have a vehicle that will definitely meet your speed and tire smoking goals. Zilla is friendly with pre-charge, reverse and has programmable limits for battery and motor so you can safely push things (though external parts are required).

If you want to save budget go forklift 9" and a ReVolt controller. Close to the same performance just more DIY. This should have enough to smoke the tire when geared to 60MPH but not much excess (sorry no rolling burnouts).

Either way the battery and controller combo would be the limiting factors and the 2 would be reasonably closely matched to each other. The Zilla of course has more room to grow if you upgrade the battery.


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## dain254 (Oct 8, 2015)

Yes I like where your head is at - If I can't do a rolling burnout I suppose I will live... lol

I did a little research on both the Zilla1k and Revolt earlier today, The zilla is way too expensive and the Revolt is too hacker/open source for my taste. I was thinking for brushed DC I could get away with a Kelly KDZ12401, it is 120V and 400A, and only $480. 

I figured with the ME1115 I would change my gear ratio to almost twice what it is now and take advantage of the high RPM operation, dropping back to #40 chain from the 50 due to less torque and for noise reduction. I thought a Kelly KHB12401 120V 400A at a price of $699 seemed reasonable... I'm not sure either of the Kelly controllers are programmable to what I'm looking for, but they have a very long list of features.

Kelly also sells "assemblies" that have all the extra crap like a precharge resistor and contactor pre wired so even I can't screw it up!

Do you have a link to one of the 9" motors you are talking about? I've seen all different kinds of "forklift" motors but I haven't found what I'd guess would be the correct one. 

Thanks again!


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## Vanquizor (Nov 17, 2009)

Dropping back to a 400 amp controller from a 600amp one is REALLY going to hurt performance- in general amps~torque volts~top speed a 600amp controller will produce ~50% more torque than a 400 given the same motor.

On the ME1115 you would want something like a KHB12601 with a good heatsink or 12801 (it is my understanding Kelly's ratings are on the limit so you are better to oversize and dial back in the settings). Respecting the published limits I found you can expect 60ft lbs pushing 600amps into it and you will be able to gear down another 42% running at 5krpm vs 3500. I'm not sure if you can push the amp rating on that motor or not, but you would definitely want to.

60*4.16*1.42~ 350ft lbs at the rear wheel... no burnouts for you and about the same speed you are at, or chirp the tire with a 30-35mph top speed.

If you really want a Kelly for brushed look at KDH12600D and again a GOOD heatsink or a KDH12800D.

One thing I'm not sure about and you'd probably need to find out from someone who has used it is the slew rate of the Kelly. This is basically how quickly it will respond to throttle input. A slow slew rate is easy on the controller in that things happen predictably so there is good current control without overshoot, its also easy on the tires so they don't get shocked and break traction. With a slower slew rate you really need to just overpower the tires a lot to smoke em rather than shocking them off the line (there is time for weight transfer and things get complicated). Zilla and ReVolt can be set to respond quick enough to hoon, the Curtis 1231C (96-144V 500A) although common and otherwise suitable even with the adjustment maxed is a fairly gentle roll on and not conducive to tire smoking. 

One other note- you never did clarify your tire specifications(brand/size) or how much weight you have on the rear wheel (either static or under acceleration). Judging by your statement of [email protected] using a 4.16 gear I suspect your tire may be a little smaller than I was picturing. Tire size, composition and load are key variables in your traction situation and should be known at this point- if you share them we can put a better guess at what is required.

P.S. When I say 9" motors I'm talking Warp 9, Impulse 9, ADC FB4001A, or a forklift motor you advance the brushes on- all are in the same ballpark once you gear them.


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## dain254 (Oct 8, 2015)

This is definitely why I wanted to ask the group of experts! This is how I would think of it:

ME1115 motor can do 30kw for 1 min safely, so my thought on controller was if I limit my power to 400A @ 120V, it is essentially allowing me 48kw. If I feed 600A at 120V to it I'm definitely going to fry the motor as opposed to probably going to at some point. This is also just simply running the motor at 120V and calling it a day!

The Alltrax Controller I'm using now does 450A, I'll sometimes see in the mid 20's of KW on my cycle analyst.. which 450x72V should give me 32kw max to the motor. 

Tire OD you are close enough at 24" - it is an 18" wheel with a low pro tire, it is 24" to 26", I'd have to measure when I get home. I haven't scaled the car with myself sitting in it but 500lbs would also be a very close estimate. We can forget about doing a burnout, the real driver of the change is getting to 55 or 60mph easily and maintaining it on a slight grade. 

I'd prefer to use the same mounting, which is why I'm still holding on to the idea of 1003 sized motors - minimal changes to an already nicely packaged setup.


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## Vanquizor (Nov 17, 2009)

I think you've discovered why I'm suggesting controllers that seem over spec to the motor. A controller capable of 600A and 120V is only going to be at 72kW for the one glorious moment at the exact point when the RPM and throttle position are just right- too low an RPM and motor voltage won't be achieved, too high and amperage will be below peak. This is similar to how your current 32kW controller probably has a real available output of 20kW or less under most driving conditions - your observation of sometimes mid 20's support this. The controller in my neon is Rated 144V 500amps but with a pack that gets charged to 150+ volts the highest peak I currently have recorded on my cycle analyst is 45 kW. I the real world motors are off peak RMP, Batteries sag, there is voltage drop in wiring and the ideal point is not achieved.

The ME1115 is rated at 600amps for 1 minute- and in that 1 minute you will have burned off a good chunk of your battery capacity. It is unlikely you would actually do that often, or find the right stretch of mountain big enough to load it at 600amps constant. Even hooning it on the street you will probably run out of battery before melting down the motor. Given we are talking about numbers within the operating envelope you won't instantly fry the motor there will be a heat buildup prior to failure. You can easily monitor temperature to know when you are putting the motor in danger. Additionally if you use the motor temperature input on the Kelly controller it will neuter you and keep your motor safe without driver intervention.

With a Kelly rated in line with the motor I bet you hit thermal cutback on the controller before motor temp becomes an issue. Having said that if you are REALLY concerned for the motor use the kelly controller's motor current function to limit amperage and Motor Top Speed function to limit voltage to protect your motor. If you use a 600amp controller at 400 or 450 amps it will likely have a long life. If you use a 400amp controller on the limit all the time you better have really good cooling.


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## Vanquizor (Nov 17, 2009)

Since you are running cycle analyst did you happen to note the draw when you were maxed out at 50MPH? This will let you precisely pinpoint what it takes to get to 60MPH in the same environment.


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## dain254 (Oct 8, 2015)

When I am maxed out it seems like it is drawing 10-12kwh on the flat and level. If I drop back to mid or lower 40's I'm only at 7-8kw. My cycle analyst has been having problems after I touched a couple wires together accidentally resulting a few big sparks.. the screen fades out until you draw some current through it. I will probably have to get a new one when I switch to the lithium. 

So we are now thinking that the ME1115 and a Kelly may work decently w a 5kwh 120V pack?


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## Vanquizor (Nov 17, 2009)

The fact that you are not at peak power when maxed out on speed means there was some room to improve top speed by sacrificing acceleration- you'd have to make the judgment call if that dropped acceleration to an unacceptable level or overheated the motor.

Based on your figures I would project 16-18kW required to travel at 60MPH in the same conditions which should be real world doable with either a 400 or 600 amp controller (also your old controller). 

If by work decently you mean achieve greater speed than you had before then yes. Geared to ~5.5:1 if you go with a 400 amp controller acceleration will be a wash to slightly worse, with a 600amp controller improved. Top speed should be ~65MPH putting the motor on the 5000 RPM limit, and you could probably break 70 with the 600amp and taller gear. With this gearing you should have a dead battery before the motor is too hot.

Power required is going to be accurate ish, top speeds are soft since I'm guessing at how much of your power needs are drivetrain loss, rolling drag and aero drag.

Putting that aside I'm not clear how you are getting a 120V pack with chevy volt cells- that would imply 32cells which isin't really practical. I can totally see getting a 30 cell pack (111V nominal ~5kW) or a 36 cell pack (133V nominal ~6kW) without breaking modules, the former would be o.k. but the latter would be running the 120V Kelly into overvoltage protection and require a KHB14601 to operate within specs. If you are using something other than chevy volt or leaf cells all bets are off as I based assumptions around that.


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## dain254 (Oct 8, 2015)

As I've mentioned - I've played with sprockets and bumping a tooth does draw more current at top speed but acceleration is hurt badly I would prefer to improve acceleration and top out at at 60mph, nothing but 45mph speed limits between home and work. 

The 5kwh module is what I"m referring (maybe peak it is 120V? nominal 111V). That is what I am thinking looks pretty ideal for right now... if I get confident in lithium and want to add more range later I'll just wire another one 2P. 

So we have the battery, 5KWH module from a Chevy Volt - What do I use to properly charge and balance that pack? Overnight charging is plenty good enough!

Motor we have ME1115 - controller I like the idea of the KHB12601, 600A @111V gives me capability of nearly 90hp, that would get me along nicely! If I need more speed I can always upgrade. Sounding good?


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## dain254 (Oct 8, 2015)

Kelly even sells these sweet little assemblies with cooling fans so I can't even wire it wrong!

http://kellycontroller.com/khb-assembly-p-880.html


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## Vanquizor (Nov 17, 2009)

This is probably where someone else should be giving the advise... this might be a little controversial.

For charging anything setup for 120V lead will have the gump to do your pack. You can't really spec it till you know exactly how many cells are in your pack. For budgeting your cheapest charger is likely something like this: 

http://www.electriccarpartscompany....d-Acid-Intelligent-Battery-Charger_p_515.html

I would probably just balance and monitor manually setting conservative limits for charging and in your controller for this type of vehicle. It seems that a "cheap" BMS is still $1k by the time it gets to my door and more if you want a display. The batteries just aren't that valuable.


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## Vanquizor (Nov 17, 2009)

If you are actually thinking of pulling the trigger user Tomaj has the KHB12601 and the liquid cooled version of the motor for sale in the classifieds section- maybe a deal could be had.

You should probably also note he had complaints about a low speed over current protection feature that hurt low end acceleration. Looks like tire smoking is definitely a no go unless it can be tuned out in settings.


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## dain254 (Oct 8, 2015)

All cars run on used parts! Id definitely be interested in the liquid version and controller and save a little money in the process. If its the most powerful version list price is usually 1500.. rated 38kw.


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## Jayls5 (Apr 1, 2012)

I genuinely think you're doing a lot of work to change something you're currently not happy with and replacing it with something that will only offer a moderate improvement (assuming it all works appropriately) while adding a lot of complexity.

You're going to want a stupid simple controller for the ME1302; if your controller isn't programmed perfectly out of the box for that motor, I've seen a lot of people have trouble calibrating brushless systems properly. I'm not saying it will be the case with yours, but I am personally weary of all of the crazy little settings in some of these controllers have (like the Sevcon lineup). You practically have to be an electrical engineer to pull off a perfect tune with them. I'm pretty sure that motor is a sine-wave controlled one, so you'll want a sine/cosine speed sensing controller to run optimally. You need a complete liquid cooling system (lines/radiator/pump/fans/associated wiring) for that motor as well.

If you still have your current controller and went with a big 9" brushed series wound motor, you could basically bolt the thing right into your current motor controller and run it immediately while you decide on a (simple brushed) controller upgrade that handles higher voltages.

Assuming you got a Warp 9, here's your expected amps vs motor speed at different voltages:
http://electricporsche924.blogspot.com/2012/04/warp-9-motor-performance-predictions.html


That graph helps you select a sprocket to get the desired motor speed at whatever pack voltage you end up going with. You would basically get an extra 40 ft-lbs torque off the line at 400A over the ME1003, then pick a voltage that makes your top speed performance needs happy by just tracing that graph. Then, buy your controller and pack to match. I'd do a 144v & ~400A (continuous) rated controller. Worst case with lots of _hard accelerating_ stop and go driving, you might have to add a blower fan on the motor... but it's still more simple than a water cooled setup.


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## dain254 (Oct 8, 2015)

I like the idea of the 9" motor. If I power with 2P 3kwh volt modules I can run 72V in the mean time and then wire them in series later to get the 144v! Physically I will have to change the rear end of the car in order to accomodate the motor but that shouldnt be too much trouble. 

I will look into finding one of those motors, any suggestions on the best place to find one?


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## dain254 (Oct 8, 2015)

I'm not sure if I'm interpreting the data correctly, may have to use that tabulated data and toss it into excel and make a graph... but I think Im seeing somewhere around 16-18hp at 4000rpm? If I had to guess that is what would be required to keep me around 55-60mph - so gear for 4k @ 60mph would be gearing down a little from where im at. My vehicle isnt very aerodynamic... I sacrificed it for style points that a lot of electric vehicles sorely need!! Thanks again for the info!


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## Jayls5 (Apr 1, 2012)

dain254 said:


> I'm not sure if I'm interpreting the data correctly, may have to use that tabulated data and toss it into excel and make a graph... but I think Im seeing somewhere around 16-18hp at 4000rpm? If I had to guess that is what would be required to keep me around 55-60mph - so gear for 4k @ 60mph would be gearing down a little from where im at. My vehicle isnt very aerodynamic... I sacrificed it for style points that a lot of electric vehicles sorely need!! Thanks again for the info!


I was going off memory and was incorrect. My mistake: the 40 ft lb's torque improvement I stated would be at 500A... not 400A. At equal 400A settings, it seems like the ME1003 would be 59 ft lbs vs the Warp 9 at about 72.5 ft lbs... so about a 19% improvement in torque on the exact same controller settings. 

Maxing your current AXE7245 controller at 450A would give you about 85 ft lbs. Netgain supplies the 72v graph:
http://www.go-ev.com/PDFs/003_09_01_WarP_9A_Graph.pdf

Here's a spreadsheet showing the same data:
http://www.go-ev.com/PDFs/003_09_02_WarP_9A_SpreadSheet.pdf


That being said, in its simplest form: Volts * Amps = Wattage (power)

The graph from my previous post describes the ability of the motor to produce torque at different amp loads through multiple battery pack voltage choices. Pick the 80v (purple line) curve. Let's say you give it 400A (current limit setting) at 80v. It will be able to produce around 72.5 torque until motor RPM's climbs to about 2750. As the RPM's go beyond that, current (thus torque) falls off according to the graph. By 4000 RPM, your motor will only produce 200A at 80v or around 26 torque. Basically, 200*80=16 kW at 4000 RPM. If the 16 kW input is enough power to accelerate the car, the motor speed increases further, dropping amps (torque) further, until you reach your top speed.

As you increase pack voltage you can see that curve rise dramatically, allowing higher amps (torque) at higher RPM levels. Say you get a 140v pack (greyish line). With a same 400A current limit, you can now produce that same 72.5 torque all the way up to around 4750 rpm. Make sense? This would also mean that you could gear it down further for more torque multiplication. It's all about plugging in the variables, knowing what power you want through your RPM band, and what RPM you want the motor to be doing most of the time. There's a sweet spot for efficiency to consider as well as optimum RPM for cooling, since it's air cooled via internal mechanical fan.

I hope I didn't blast you with too much information, just wanted to give you an informed choice.


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## dain254 (Oct 8, 2015)

No not too much information at all, your last post verifies my understanding of it. I'm going to ditch the lead acid for lithium right away so a pair of 72V 3kwh modules shave 400lbs off, the warp 9 or similar adds 100lbs or so.. so I'll have more power and 25% total vehicle weight reduction. 55mph is what I"m looking to get, so this setup would definitely get me there and maybe faster if I sacrificed some acceleration... but I'd rather have it tear off the line and max out at 55mph so I will likely gear to exactly that. Thanks!


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## Vanquizor (Nov 17, 2009)

This kind of made my Monday morning reading that you decided to go to a 9" motor- its at least a base to get decent performance out of that vehicle.


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## dain254 (Oct 8, 2015)

Should I start right out with it at 120V? The 400A 120V controller from Kelly is cheap and can use the "assembly" which wires the reverse circuit all together for me! a 5kwh 120v lithium module is $1200 while 2 3kwh mods are $750/piece. Then down the road I can add another 5kwh pack in paralell giving me 10 total! I'll start shopping for a motor!


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## Vanquizor (Nov 17, 2009)

Spending money on a 400a controller is really flushing it away- its a step backward in performance from what you have and you will be running it hard. you would be better off getting a used Curtis for that money.

If you really want a Kelly at minimum go with a KDH12801E if you are running a 30cell module, or a KDH14801E with a 36 cell string (I'm assuming your '72V' modules are 18cell strings).

If you have cash on hand go with the 30cell module as its cheaper on a per cell basis and will meet both cruise and tire smoking needs, get all the controller you can fit in the budget- KDH12151E if you can swing it. Run your Kelly controller no more than 50% battery side and 75% motor side if you want a long life.

If you don't have cash in hand get the 18 cell strings and use your existing controller till you can save up for something worthy. Keep your eyes open for used Soliton, Zilla 1k, WarP Drive, ect.- you'll pay around the same as a high end Kelly and have a more reliable controller with room to grow.


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## Jayls5 (Apr 1, 2012)

dain254 said:


> Should I start right out with it at 120V? The 400A 120V controller from Kelly is cheap and can use the "assembly" which wires the reverse circuit all together for me! a 5kwh 120v lithium module is $1200 while 2 3kwh mods are $750/piece. Then down the road I can add another 5kwh pack in paralell giving me 10 total! I'll start shopping for a motor!


While you're shopping, pay special care to notice Kelly's controllers have a pretty low continuous duty compared to the product title. I think the "400A" Kelly controllers of that category only do like 180A continuous. Earlier, I said you want a controller that can do 400A _continuous_... the max rating would be much higher for Kelly in that case. I think even Kelly's 800A models only do 360A continuous.


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## dain254 (Oct 8, 2015)

400A continuous I likely miss typed or miss spoke earlier - I only need as much continuous power as it takes to keep me at 55 or 50mph. 

If there is a GOOD chance that I might be satisfied with performance using the controller I've got now and the pair of 18cell modules then that is the route I will go. I didn't build this vehicle to be high performance, I built it to zip around town, to work, maybe to the golf course, to the gym, and most importantly keep up with the flow of traffic! It is slightly underpowered in its current form but it is close! 

The kelly's 180A continuous @120V is good for 21.6kw, which is double what my cycle analyst claims takes to keep me at my top speed now of 49-50mph. Somewhere in the mid teens of kw would likely hold me at 60, so I think the 180A continuous is OK for the application. 

As for motors... this is about the only one I've found that isn't the full $1800 and change that seems correct/similar

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Advanced-DC...ash=item21043e211c:g:UHUAAOSwwbdWGa3u&vxp=mtr

I know 9" forklift motors are out there, but I'm wondering if there are some major differences in them that should be avoided - or send me a link to a good deal!


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## Vanquizor (Nov 17, 2009)

Your top speed will not increase significantly from the motor and battery change alone, but the extra torque and weight reduction may allow you to gear it enough to get a few mph. A good controller will make a night and day difference in the vehicle- its the jump from a glorified golf cart to a sporty vehicle or a rocket ship depending on how far you go.


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## Yabert (Feb 7, 2010)

dain254 said:


> If there is a GOOD chance that I might be satisfied with performance using the controller I've got now and the pair of 18cell modules then that is the route I will go. I didn't build this vehicle to be high performance, I built it to zip around town, to work, maybe to the golf course, to the gym, and most importantly keep up with the flow of traffic! It is slightly underpowered in its current form but it is close!


Because of this, I suggest you another time to find a used forklift motor and use your current Alltrax controller at 450A.
This solution will be easier for you and your wallet.

The ''complex'' part is to find a good used forklift motor. I think an easy way for you is to take a look at 2-3 forklift repair shop, ask for used DC motor, take picture of motors*, take mesures, verified the brushes quatity**, the terminals quantity and come back here to receive advice about the best motor four your needs.

*motor specification plate, brushes, end shafts, etc.
** two per pole is best (8 bruhes total on 4 poles).

Except that, the kelly controllers doesn't have good reputation, so I second the advice from others members about it.


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## dain254 (Oct 8, 2015)

I think it is clear to go 5kwh pack and 120V controller if I will only see a slight gain with the controller I have now. I will just sell my Alltrax controller!


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## Yabert (Feb 7, 2010)

One important thing I forget to say: you are looking for a 36v or 48v motor.
This thread is very informative on the subject: http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showthread.php/using-forklift-motor-and-choosing-good-7598.html


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## dain254 (Oct 8, 2015)

Yabert - there are 215 pages to that thread... I would prefer to not read through every page of it, is there some information I should be aware of?


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

dain254 said:


> Yabert - there are 215 pages to that thread... I would prefer to not read through every page of it, is there some information I should be aware of?


Hi Dain
If you are looking to save a couple of $K it's worth reading a few pages!

Saying that start at the beginning read the first few pages, then go hunting,
read the rest once you have found a POSSIBLE motor - 
most of the thread is
"Is THIS motor any good" discussion


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## dain254 (Oct 8, 2015)

Honestly I probably won't waste my time with a forklift motor... I'll just wait for a deal on a warp 9. I'm currently working on another project so I won't be able to be the CozE back in my shop until spring sometime - this thread's purpose was to share my build and gain some information on power options. Thanks everyone so far for the insight, has been very helpful.


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## tylerwatts (Feb 9, 2012)

Dain254

I believe you can run both your altrax controllers in parallel. Someone correct me but that would give you more torque for free. Not much more wiring...


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## dain254 (Oct 8, 2015)

One of my Alltrax controllers is unable to be programmed, shorted it too many times I think - so I'm not going to try and run them parallel. I'll just sell them on eBay so I can get the correct one for the application!


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## dain254 (Oct 8, 2015)

Does anyone know how much power I can squeeze out of a D&D ES-32C-7 Motor without frying it? Looking at doing 120-144V for my system. Thanks guys!


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## dain254 (Oct 8, 2015)

Found another possible motor:

New, never used, General Electric DC motor, would be excellent for an electric car, truck, NEV, EV, golf cart, etc. That is what I bought it for originally, but never used it. Stored inside dry location. 9" diameter, 14.25" long, 1.125" shaft, weighs about 100 pounds. Name plate reads: DC, 2HP, 24v, Cont Duty 1.15, compound winding, open frame, 1020 RPM, 5BT1344B153, TD8-2254TD.


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## Vanquizor (Nov 17, 2009)

Compound winding is the bit that would steer me away from that motor.


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## Yabert (Feb 7, 2010)

dain254 said:


> Does anyone know how much power I can squeeze out of a D&D ES-32C-7 Motor without frying it?


Probably not much more than with your ME1003 motor and you will have difficulty to find a reliable 120-144V shunt controller.
This D&D is also less efficient than your permanent magnet motor.



dain254 said:


> Found another possible motor


Same thing for this motor, reliable compound wound motor controller are hard to find. Also, no internal fan to cool the motor on this one.
A similar size motor (9" dia, just over 100 lbs) propel my 2000 lbs Smart from 0 to 60 mph without problem. So, this kind of motor, but serie wound, can do an excellent job in your trike (fast acceleration and high top speed).


But after all this, if your goal is to find the perfect motor to build many trikes and sell it to customers I think you will need to stick with your ME1003 motor or pay the extra price and go with HPEVS AC motor.


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## dain254 (Oct 8, 2015)

What about a Motenergy ME1002? 

http://www.electricmotorsport.com/sm300.html

Claims it is more powerful than a Warp 9 AND cheaper!

Thoughts?


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## tylerwatts (Feb 9, 2012)

It may claim that but push 1000A through them and I'm certain only the warp 9 would still be working. If you are looking at these I'd suggest the smaller warp 8 or 7 as you don't want so much weight sitting on your rear swingarm and you can run lower torque with higher gearing and use a belt drive for quiet running and low maintenance.


Tyler


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## dain254 (Oct 8, 2015)

Tyler - forgot to mention that I will be abandoning the swingarm mount when I upgrade motors - so the extra weight isn't a concern. I think the smallest I want to go is a warp 8. Realistically 800A is all the more I will ever run, gives me almost 130hp w the 120V Volt modules.


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## tylerwatts (Feb 9, 2012)

What are your goals in this upgrade?


Tyler


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## dain254 (Oct 8, 2015)

The original goal with the ME1003 and lead acid was to make it cheap. It doesn't achieve my performance goals for top speed and acceleration. 

Upgrading to lithium will give me an acceleration boost due to weight loss, but top speed will likely not improve. Since I will be significantly increasing my capacity of battery, I may as well make it perform as well with a big motor and high amperage/high voltage controller. looking to be able to run 12's in the 1/4 mile and do a smokey burnout w 50 miles of range. 

I'm not planning on swingarm mounting the motor - I will chassis mount a warp 8 or 9 or similar.


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## dain254 (Oct 8, 2015)

I think I am going to test the limits of the ME1003 RPM wise & power wise by configuring 4 2kwh volt modules in a 2S2P config giving me 8kwh, or like [email protected] 96V output to the motor. Going to gear down to bring down load to the motor and only increase top speed slightly. Any thoughts aside from ruining my motor? Ill be trimming 300lbs w this setup so I think ill be fine on the motor side!! If it goes poof ill get a bigger motor. Will use a 400a controller. My friend who owns a salvage yard is getting me a complete Volt pack so I may,have extra cells!


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## dain254 (Oct 8, 2015)

Peak Im expecting 51.xx hp but will only need that for 10s bursts or less - the motor gets decent airflow and cruising around i expect to be around 60A, at top speed 100a continuous, itll be fine


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## dain254 (Oct 8, 2015)

After working on a few other projects I am back to the CozE - most recently I had the vehicle running the a Motenergy ME1507, Kelly 96601 controller, and a custom pack made up of 18650s that was around 6kwh and 72V. That pack could only handle about 300A, so performance was still marginal. 

I've decided to upgrade the power, and am picking up a 24S bms system and 4kwh Chevy volt module this weekend to give me 96V. This should give me the performance I want and will likely be the final update to this chassis - as I am planning on building a high performance version that will be 4 wheels. That vehicle will run a pair of 4kwh modules in parallel giving 8kwh and 96V - 1000A controller (likely Kelly) and an ME1002 from Motenergy. Should be interesting!

I also recently built an electric dirt bike for the purpose of competing in an indoor "endurocross" - got 3rd... bike worked very well right out of the gate! Uses a motenergy ME1004 sealed DC brushed motor and a sepex kelly controller that can be switched to run DC brushed. Gets hot after riding for a while, but the race only lasted 10 min or so! 2kwh chevy volt battery powering it - can ride for 45min-1hr, rides like a 250f.


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## Yabert (Feb 7, 2010)

Nice bike and nice use of the 45v Chevy Volt pack.


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