# Electric Camaro



## Camaro (Jul 29, 2008)

First a little background,
 I'm and EE currently working on my masters degree at the Air Force Institute of Technology. I have quite a bit of programming and electrical experience and I'm pretty good with a wrench. 

This will be my second EV. My first one is a 1979 Kawasaki G4 that I converted over three years ago. (See image below). It has an Etek motor, Altrax 400 amp controller, and 8 B&B 20amp batteries running at 48 volts. It's still running strong, but I (and my wife) want a second car. 

 I bought a 1994 Camaro Z28 about six months ago for $600.00 It's in great condition, and it didn't have an engine or transmition (which saved me a lot of time).


----------



## Camaro (Jul 29, 2008)

The first thing I've done is to tear down the car completely, and I mean completely. I checked for rust and patched the few rust spots that there were.


----------



## Camaro (Jul 29, 2008)

Then I cleaned up the engine bay, and rolled truck bed lining on the bottom of the chassis. 
 I've rebuilt the front-end and the rear differential. I've also put in a lighter Kmember. I'm not going to put anything back on the car that doesn't need to be there.


----------



## Camaro (Jul 29, 2008)

Now things will get a little tricky. I originally thought about direct drive, but even with a 4.1:1 differential gear reduction, a Warp 9 won't cut it, so I plan on making my own gearbox. I have a Bridgeport mill in my garage that I'm pretty good with. 
 From what I can gather most people leave there EV's in second gear, which is around a 1:1.8 gear reduction. 

At this point comments and suggestions are more than welcome. What I plan on doing is making an aluminum gear box with just two gears, one mounted to the motor and a second mounted to a splined shaft. The advantage of this setup is weight and simplicity. The down side is I'll only have one gear. Thoughts?


----------



## DavidDymaxion (Dec 1, 2008)

I love your project! By coincidence I also have a red gasser 1994 Camaro Z28. I regularly autocross, occasionally road race, and have run it on the Salt Flats. It surprises people how fast it can corner. It is still with a little regret I'm converting a Porsche instead of my Camaro, but the Porsche is so much lighter that saves alot of money for a given amount of acceleration.

Why not get a junk car tranny? Allegedly a 2 speed PowerGlide is light, tough, and cheap.

What are your goals? Are you hoping to embarrass supercars?

You can get modified Ford 9 inch rear axles that are direct bolt-in replacements for the Camaro axle. I think this is a really good idea (or switching to a Chevy 12 bolt). The Camaro axle is wimpy. The Ford 9 incher is much tougher. Also, you can get a 6:1 rear gear for the Ford 9 incher. 6:1 is about perfect, as 5000 rpm would then be about 70 mph. Allegedly the Chevy 12 bolt is a little more efficient, as it has less pinion offset.

Many of the NEDRA racers that go direct drive use 2 motors. With a big, heavy car like a Camaro I'd be worried a 9 inch motor would be up to the task. A tranny makes its life much easier at low speeds.


Camaro said:


> Now things will get a little tricky. I originally thought about direct drive, but even with a 4.1:1 differential gear reduction, a Warp 9 won't cut it, so I plan on making my own gearbox. I have a Bridgeport mill in my garage that I'm pretty good with.
> From what I can gather most people leave there EV's in second gear, which is around a 1:1.8 gear reduction.
> 
> At this point comments and suggestions are more than welcome. What I plan on doing is making an aluminum gear box with just two gears, one mounted to the motor and a second mounted to a splined shaft. The advantage of this setup is weight and simplicity. The down side is I'll only have one gear. Thoughts?


----------



## Jimdear2 (Oct 12, 2008)

Camaro said:


> Now things will get a little tricky. I originally thought about direct drive, but even with a 4.1:1 differential gear reduction, a Warp 9 won't cut it, so I plan on making my own gearbox. I have a Bridgeport mill in my garage that I'm pretty good with.
> From what I can gather most people leave there EV's in second gear, which is around a 1:1.8 gear reduction.
> 
> At this point comments and suggestions are more than welcome. What I plan on doing is making an aluminum gear box with just two gears, one mounted to the motor and a second mounted to a splined shaft. The advantage of this setup is weight and simplicity. The down side is I'll only have one gear. Thoughts?


Howdy,

People are probably getting sick of hearing me spout off about powerglides. But here we go again. 

As you will probably notice if you look around the threads, I believe that DC Electric Traction Motors and Powerglides were made for each other, just nobody has discovered it yet. 

Look into the hot rod community at some of the options available to you in a powerglide transmission. Get a Jegs or Summit catalog to get an overview.

If you use a glide with the circle track pump drive and auxillary boost pump to get rid of the torque converter and some other custom parts it is possible to build a manually shiffted 2 speed planetary transmission with a 1.8 to 1 low gear (other low gear ratios available) and a 1 to 1 high gear, a reverse gear and a park lock (important on an electric). You can just order the parts and bolt this together, shifter and all.

Some options:

One version of this transmission (with the right custom parts) could be about 14 inches long and weigh about 45 pounds. The nicest thing about it is you can do this with nothing but OFF THE SHELF, NEW PARTS. NO CUSTOM MACHINING. All of this stuff fits together. And tough? you can build a glide to handle HUGE (800 - 1000 horse power) torque.

You could also start with a scrap yard core and build a standard case glide, without a torque converter, that would fit right into the existing trans position of your camero using off the shelf mounts and shafts and then use a standard electric motor to chevy (4.3 L V6 pattern) trans to motor adapter plate. With a little effort you could even keep it fully automatic (see a good trans man) even without a torque converter.

All of the necessary engineering to fit a glide into a camero has been done and refined so you can make a nice looking installation.

You owe yourself a look at whats available. Spend you creative efforts on new stuff. The glide is mostly done.

Jim


----------



## PatricioIN (Jun 13, 2008)

Please keep this thread posted with updates as you build.. I'd like to see what you end up with. That car should have weighed around 3300lbs with tops. I'm curious what you leave out of it and how much weight you can shave before adding EV parts. What you've done so far looks good. Keep it up!


----------



## DavidDymaxion (Dec 1, 2008)

Mine weighs 3425 pounds by spec, and was very close to that when I had it weighed. It is a t-top car. I saw somewhere the engine is about 650 pounds.

A buddy of mine got his LS1 Camaro to lose about 400 pounds by stripping the interior, ditching the heating and a/c, cutting off brackets and wiring harness, plastic winshield, etc. He figures the only place left for major weight reduction is putting on a plastic rear window and plastic t-tops.

It's not a powerglide, but here is an electric doing something similar with a Lenco:
http://www.ghiamonster.com/


----------



## speederbike1 (Dec 5, 2007)

I was wondering when the powerglide with direct coupler would be brought upfor use in an ev


----------



## reign16 (Jan 13, 2009)

that is an cool camaro!!




___________________
aluminum plate


----------



## dwarasim (May 22, 2008)

JIM DEAR2 - You stated:
"You could also start with a scrap yard core and build a standard case glide, without a torque converter, that would fit right into the existing trans position of your camero using off the shelf mounts and shafts and then use a standard electric motor to chevy (4.3 L V6 pattern) trans to motor adapter plate."

I'm looking to do a directdrive powerglide (manual shift) and I'm looking for an adapter plate kit. Can the Chevy 4.3L V6 adapter kit fit on the Powerglide? and who sells it? Anyone you would recommend.

Thanks


----------



## Jimdear2 (Oct 12, 2008)

dwarasim said:


> JIM DEAR2 - You stated:
> "You could also start with a scrap yard core and build a standard case glide, without a torque converter, that would fit right into the existing trans position of your camero using off the shelf mounts and shafts and then use a standard electric motor to chevy (4.3 L V6 pattern) trans to motor adapter plate."
> 
> I'm looking to do a directdrive powerglide (manual shift) and I'm looking for an adapter plate kit. Can the Chevy 4.3L V6 adapter kit fit on the Powerglide? and who sells it? Anyone you would recommend.
> ...


Howdy,

The 4.3L V6 transmissions uses the standard Chevy small block V8 pattern and so does the chevy version powerglide (watch out, there were/are Pontiac, Buick Oldsmobile (BOP) versions) that used a different pattern.

Any adapter plate made to adapt your electric motor to a transmission that was connected to Chevy 4.3L V6 will connect your motor to a Chevy pattern powerglide. Some of the other smaller engines used a different pattern. 

I can't recommend any one outfit for you adapter and coupler, maybe others on the forum could help out here.

For the coupler you will need to get the circle track direct pump drive kit (check with drag race/hot rod suppliers like Summit and Jegs) to use on the transmission. 

For the motor end you would need a coupler that mimics the end of the crankshaft (the place you would bolt the flexplate or flywheel to on a stock motor transmission).

Beyond that you would need a manual shift valve body or a manual shift kit for the stock valve body. Please note the transmission will need a two speed shifter to work properly and an aftermarket manual shift valve body if you go that way will probably require a reverse pattern shifter.

Be sure the glide you get has an oil cooler. The air cooled glides were not real strong.

Buy a good book on the powerglide (many on Amazon for 15 -25.00 bucks). If you can talk the project over with a good trans man.

For crossmembers and mounts you will have to fiddle, the powerglide and 3 speed turbo 350 use similar stuff but the newer vehicles used the 4 speed 4L60E, do a bit of reading and asking and you might find a bolt up solution. Otherwise fabricate.

And for sure have fun,
Jim


----------



## dwarasim (May 22, 2008)

Jim, Thanks for the feedback. I'm working on converting my 1968 Chevy Corvair to electric and utilizing the powerglide tranny. I spoke with a tranny guy who works on racing PG trans. We've discussed the direct drive coupler. and making the tranny manual. I'm looking for a bolt on adapter plate and hub, so the tranny guy can install it and not charge me an arm & leg for questionable mods. Again, thanks for the response.


----------



## Jimdear2 (Oct 12, 2008)

dwarasim said:


> I'm looking to do a directdrive powerglide (manual shift) and I'm looking for an adapter plate kit. Can the Chevy 4.3L V6 adapter kit fit on the Powerglide? and who sells it? Anyone you would recommend.


My response to the above was based on the assumption that you were talking about a Front Engine Rear Wheel Drive vehicle that had a 4.3L V6 engine. 

In your response below you are talking about a converting Corvair, a completely different animal. A rear engine rear wheel drive.

In some ways the Corvair may be an better but not easier conversion. I owned and raced a couple of them in my callow youth so I am familiar with the layout although I never fooled with the powerglide version. I have read that it was a pretty strong trans It was actually the first true aluminum powerglide, but you would still want to find a trans guy to advise you about any differences. Internally they are supposed to be similar. It is a very light car with lots of room for batteries.

The Corvair layout layout was a a bit strange, the engine at the very rear of the car, then going forward the bell housing then the rear end (differential housing) and then the transmission. The engine drove the transmission with a long shaft that went forward through hollow shafts in the differential and transmission and then reversed back into the differential. Go to wikipedia and search corvair powerglide .

I can 99% guarentee that NO ONE makes a commercial adapter plate and direct drive for a Corvair, you will be on your own there.

Before converting a Corvair, be vary familiar with the vehicle because they did some strange stuff. A 68 is a pretty vehicle, I always wanted a turbo Corsa but something always got in the way. 

My personal car was a 64 convertable that started as a 110 hp Monza and went through many upgrades to a modded Spyder.

The drag racer was a gutted and striped 62 2 door 500 with a very built 145 inch engine. We got it down to 1750 lbs. with severe surgery and could do high 10s low 11s.

Ah the good old days . . .



dwarasim said:


> Jim, Thanks for the feedback. I'm working on converting my 1968 Chevy Corvair to electric and utilizing the powerglide tranny. I spoke with a tranny guy who works on racing PG trans. We've discussed the direct drive coupler. and making the tranny manual. I'm looking for a bolt on adapter plate and hub, so the tranny guy can install it and not charge me an arm & leg for questionable mods. Again, thanks for the response.


----------



## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

subscribing


----------



## dwarasim (May 22, 2008)

That is one of my issues is the tranny and finding an experience tranny guy to work on it (convert to manual). I'm also thinking of having a Corvair specialist in New England who rebuilds the Corvair PGs and see if he can drop in the manual valve body. If I go manual, I wouldn't need any pumps for pressure, correct? The direct drive coupler will replace the torque converter, so no fluid will come from the front seal and will connect to the DC motor.
Yes, the Corvair can fit many batteries and then I would need to find a Corvair suspension specialist . One item at a time. Thanks for all the info.


----------



## shockingcartuner (Jan 29, 2009)

I love the idea of an electric camaro because it flies in the face of what the car was orignially designed to do. You will be surprising a lot of people when you pull up along side them and they end up wanting to race.  Should end up being lots of fun.


----------



## Camaro (Jul 29, 2008)

I think my Camaro is an ideal car to convert to electric. Yes it's heavier than a Geo metro, but it's VERY aero dynamic, and it looks about 1000 times cooler. 
 With respect to a power glide, I thought about using one, but in the end I want my camaro to be as efficient as possible. Since I'm building the camaro to be an around town car, 45mph or less, I don't think I will need to switch gears. From what I gather most people just leave their cars in 2d gear for most of their travels. I figure, why add the extra 50-100lbs for a transmition? 
 I'm sorry to report that I haven't made any real progress on the Camaro. I did get an arc wielder, but that's about it. For those of you wishing my build was as fast as Brian's, I do too, but it's not going to happen. I do plan on having the motor gearbox made, and the motor installed by the end of March. I think that will be the biggest hurtle.


----------



## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

Camaro said:


> For those of you wishing my build was as fast as Brian's, I do too, but it's not going to happen.


Dude, we *ALL* wish for builds as fast as Brian's second build LOL


----------



## Jimdear2 (Oct 12, 2008)

dwarasim said:


> That is one of my issues is the tranny and finding an experience tranny guy to work on it (convert to manual). I'm also thinking of having a Corvair specialist in New England who rebuilds the Corvair PGs and see if he can drop in the manual valve body. If I go manual, I wouldn't need any pumps for pressure, correct? The direct drive coupler will replace the torque converter, so no fluid will come from the front seal and will connect to the DC motor.
> Yes, the Corvair can fit many batteries and then I would need to find a Corvair suspension specialist . One item at a time. Thanks for all the info.


dwarasim,

You are working with a couple of misconceptions here about what a manually shifted powerglide is. 

What manual valve body control means is you are removing the self shifting controls and valves from the valve body, the actual function of the transmission clutches, bands and planetaries does not change. Instead of the transmissions governer, modulator and pressure valving telling it when to shift, you do by moving a lever.

The purpose of the pump direct drive shaft is to replace the torque converter slip function. since the motor does not run when the vehicle is stopped you do not need the converter anymore. You still need to drive the front pump and the input shaft though, this is what the direct drive does; without the slipage of the converter.

In other words what you will have is a planetary type 2 speed manually controlled hydraulically shifted transmission with the torque converter replaced with a direct connection.

The coupler and adapter plate are still another problem.

Again, research the net until you understand the powerglide and especially the Corvair version. Buy some books or go to the library.

Hope this helps get you on the right path.

Jim


----------



## DavidDymaxion (Dec 1, 2008)

I hear you on the progress thing, my conversion is taking forever!

I wouldn't automatically assume no tranny is more efficient. To get the same acceleration (up to around 50 or 60 mph or so), you need 2 motors. With a tranny, you can go into a lower gear with one motor for the same acceleration. A tranny is a lot lighter than a 2nd motor and controller.

Also, it depends on how the car is driven. If you crawl up San Francisco hills, a tranny will let the motor spin faster and stay at a more efficient RPM. You lose more efficiency working the motor hard at low rpm than in the tranny.

If you are building only a city car with a top speed of 50 mphish, then one gear is just fine -- but how are then going to get a 10:1 reduction without a tranny?

Amen on the Camaro aero, it's awesome.


Camaro said:


> I think my Camaro is an ideal car to convert to electric. Yes it's heavier than a Geo metro, but it's VERY aero dynamic, and it looks about 1000 times cooler.
> With respect to a power glide, I thought about using one, but in the end I want my camaro to be as efficient as possible. Since I'm building the camaro to be an around town car, 45mph or less, I don't think I will need to switch gears. From what I gather most people just leave their cars in 2d gear for most of their travels. I figure, why add the extra 50-100lbs for a transmission?
> I'm sorry to report that I haven't made any real progress on the Camaro. I did get an arc wielder, but that's about it. For those of you wishing my build was as fast as Brian's, I do too, but it's not going to happen. I do plan on having the motor gearbox made, and the motor installed by the end of March. I think that will be the biggest hurtle.


----------



## Camaro (Jul 29, 2008)

DavidDymaxion said:


> If you are building only a city car with a top speed of 50 mphish, then one gear is just fine -- but how are then going to get a 10:1 reduction without a tranny?
> 
> Amen on the Camaro aero, it's awesome.


 
I'm not using a transmition, but I am building a gearbox. It should only weigh around 20lbs, and I'm thinking of a 1.8:1 gear reduction. That's about the same gear reduction as 2gd gear in most transmition. I'll bolt it directly to the motor face. As I said, I hope to have it done by the end of March. 
I have my own milling machine, and I have a ball bearing factory in town that will supply the bearings and coggs. I'll take alot of pictures of the 
process.


----------



## DavidDymaxion (Dec 1, 2008)

Sounds like a good plan. Building a gear reduction is ambitious! I'll look forward to seeing pics. 


Camaro said:


> I'm not using a transmition, but I am building a gearbox. It should only weigh around 20lbs, and I'm thinking of a 1.8:1 gear reduction. That's about the same gear reduction as 2gd gear in most transmition. I'll bolt it directly to the motor face. As I said, I hope to have it done by the end of March.
> I have my own milling machine, and I have a ball bearing factory in town that will supply the bearings and coggs. I'll take alot of pictures of the
> process.


----------



## speedboats (Jan 10, 2009)

Where do you intend to mount the motor and 'box? would be cool to see it in teh tunnel leaving the hood space for the bats? THis may matain close to teh original wheel weight distribution. The tunnel looks to be large enough? 

If you are going to the effort of making a 'box, why not simply modify the diff to get the ratio you are after. Might look cleaner...


----------



## Camaro (Jul 29, 2008)

speedboats said:


> Where do you intend to mount the motor and 'box? would be cool to see it in teh tunnel leaving the hood space for the bats? THis may matain close to teh original wheel weight distribution. The tunnel looks to be large enough?
> 
> If you are going to the effort of making a 'box, why not simply modify the diff to get the ratio you are after. Might look cleaner...


Yes I want to mount the motor, gearbox and all, where the transmition was. I should have plenty of room in the engine bay. 

I thought about getting a bigger rear differential but I didn't think I could get the 6:1 reduction through the diff alone, but looking back through the
posts DavidDymaxion says that I can get a Ford 9 inch rear axle with a 6:1 reduction. 



DavidDymaxion said:


> You can get modified Ford 9 inch rear axles that are direct bolt-in replacements for the Camaro axle. I think this is a really good idea (or switching to a Chevy 12 bolt). The Camaro axle is wimpy. The Ford 9 incher is much tougher. Also, you can get a 6:1 rear gear for the Ford 9 incher. 6:1 is about perfect, as 5000 rpm would then be about 70 mph. quote]
> 
> DavidDymaxion, you just might have saved me alot of work. Do you know where I can get a Ford 9 inch rear axle with a 6:1 reduction? Also, you said that at 5000 rpm, I'd go 70mph. I thought you calculate top speed from rpm like this, (rpm/gear reduction)/wheel diameter. In which case, with a 6:1 reduction and 16'' wheels I get 52mph at 5000 rpm. 52mph is just fine for my needs in fact I prefer it. Did I do the math right?
> 
> If I did, and if I can get a Ford 9 inch rear axle with a 6:1 reduction for a few hundred dollars, I'll go the direct drive route.


----------



## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

Looks like you can go as low as 6.5:1 with the ford 9". Check it out:

http://www.ringpinion.com/ProductDetails.aspx?ProdID=6825

There is a huge selection to choose from:

http://www.ringpinion.com/PartsList.aspx?SearchMode=Diff&TypeID=4&Type=Ford&DiffID=29&DiffName=Ford+9.0&CatID=10&CatName=Rings+%26+Pinions&CatType=Sub-Differential

The catch is you will have to probably regear the differential yourself or have a shop do it for you, but even then it end up saving you a lot of work with the seperate reduction on (or near) the motor.

I re geared the ford 10.25 rear end in my F250 a few years ago from 4.10 to 3.08. Its not a big deal if you read up on doing the swap and take your time. Also shop around the web to find the best price on ring & pinion sets.


----------



## speedboats (Jan 10, 2009)

If you go direct drive to the diff, then why not mount the motor directly on the diff? This may increase the unsprung weight of the transaxle though... pity it's not IRS


----------



## Dalardan (Jul 4, 2008)

A little bit lower, there's even a 7.33 ratio gear set... That's getting really interesting.

http://www.ringpinion.com/ProductDetails.aspx?ProdID=2286

Dalardan


----------



## Dalardan (Jul 4, 2008)

I've just got a question on this subject : How just to swap in a Ford 9.0 differential in a Camaro? I've seen complete rear ends made for really old camaros, but not for recent ones. Is it possible for the DIYer?

Dalardan


----------



## Jimdear2 (Oct 12, 2008)

Dalardan said:


> I've just got a question on this subject : How just to swap in a Ford 9.0 differential in a Camaro? I've seen complete rear ends made for really old camaros, but not for recent ones. Is it possible for the DIYer?
> 
> Dalardan


Dalardan,

Get into some hot rod magizines like Car Craft and you will find a number of custom rear axles builders in the ad section. They can make a Ford 9 inch from new or old pieces to fit just about anything. Bring Money, starts about a grand, but I don't think you will break it.

A DYI guy with a bit of experiance can build (modify) a junkyard 9 inch to fit a Camero for a lot less. But you still wont get away for less then 4 to 500.00 if you do a decent job (new bearings and such). It is also a lot of heavy lifting (ask me how I know).

Car Craft is also on the web. A lot of their how to stuff is on line (they are a DIY how to and look at what I've done type magizine)

There are books that explain all of the things you need to do to modify a Ford 9 inch to fit any car.

I beleive if you check the circle track sites you might find an 8 to 1 ring and pinion. Be carefull though, most of these racing ring and pinion sets are not rated for highway driving (a disclaimer is included)

Have fun,
Jim


----------



## Jason Lattimer (Dec 27, 2008)

Dalardan said:


> A little bit lower, there's even a 7.33 ratio gear set... That's getting really interesting.
> 
> http://www.ringpinion.com/ProductDetails.aspx?ProdID=2286
> 
> Dalardan



Holly Crap!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Thanks for the website. They have 6.14 ratios for ford 8.8inchers too. Now I know what to put in my car. It already has an 8.8 

I look forward to seeing your Camaro on the road. I cannot wait to see a musclecar for the future.


----------



## DavidDymaxion (Dec 1, 2008)

As JimDear2 noted, you can buy Ford 9 inchers that bolt right into a Camaro. My friend with a 2002 did that. The Camaro suspension, brakes, wheels, everything just bolted on.


Dalardan said:


> I've just got a question on this subject : How just to swap in a Ford 9.0 differential in a Camaro? I've seen complete rear ends made for really old camaros, but not for recent ones. Is it possible for the DIYer?
> 
> Dalardan


----------



## Camaro (Jul 29, 2008)

Well, after a lot of research, I've decided to stay with the gearbox idea. I can make a gear box for less than $200, and it will cost any where from $500 - $800 to get a Ford 9'' and re-gear it. By the time I find every part I would need on Cragistlist, or ebay, I don't think I'll save any time.
 If I had an extra $1000 or so I'd get a Moser 9'' with the 6.5:1 gear ratio.

http://www.moserengineering.com/Pages/Housings/hous-ford9.html

I agree with what others here have said, that a direct drive with high gearing would be best, especially if I could figure out how to bolt the motor right on the rear differential, but cost is the issue for me. I can always up grade later.


----------



## kixGas (May 2, 2008)

I would strongly recommend a Ford 9" or an 8.8" over making a gear box. This is proven technology and there are lots of people experienced in these axles. I have done several gear swaps and it is not that hard. If it is beyond your abilities most rearend shops or 4wd shops will do it for $200-$400 plus parts.
Making a gearbox has a lot of variables- is your case going to be strong enough? Are you going to use straight cut or helical cut gears? What kind of oil to use? Will the bearings be up to task? Will your gears be hard enough that they won't wear out in 10,000 miles but ductile enough that they won't shatter? How much backlash should you have?

Just some food for thought before you start flying chips.


----------



## Joe_L (Sep 17, 2008)

Nice. I have a guzzler 1995 Z28 and have been thinking of a conversion on this style of car. I was actually thinking of selling the Z28 in the spring and using that money to buy a chassis and do the conversion similar to yours...however I would like to go AC instead of DC... I am intrigued to do an electric conversion and I know that I will miss that loppy V-8 sound, but I really don't drive it that far. An "E/28" would probably go the same places I do now... except the track.

By chance, Do you know what the car weighs rolling chassis? I have always wondered how much the components weigh.


----------



## DavidDymaxion (Dec 1, 2008)

Here is some weight info on my 1994:

http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showpost.php?p=94038&postcount=8



Joe_L said:


> Nice. I have a guzzler 1995 Z28 and have been thinking of a conversion on this style of car. I was actually thinking of selling the Z28 in the spring and using that money to buy a chassis and do the conversion similar to yours...however I would like to go AC instead of DC... I am intrigued to do an electric conversion and I know that I will miss that loppy V-8 sound, but I really don't drive it that far. An "E/28" would probably go the same places I do now... except the track.
> 
> By chance, Do you know what the car weighs rolling chassis? I have always wondered how much the components weigh.


----------



## Joe_L (Sep 17, 2008)

Thanks Dave. I already have a lot of information similar to the stuff you provided. In fact, when reading the post I saw it earlier. 

I was more interested to see the weight of that stripped car on a scale. The Camaro is a great car for converting. Its chassis can handle high torque and hp loading. That extra metal in the chassis would be great for holding up batteries. Cd is 0.32-0.33 depending on which site you use. I have just wondered once components are removed how much weight you have to play with.

Camaro,
If you are not using a transmission, what are you going to do with the Torque arm that runs up the drive shaft tunnel?


----------



## Camaro (Jul 29, 2008)

Joe_L said:


> Thanks Dave. I already have a lot of information similar to the stuff you provided. In fact, when reading the post I saw it earlier.
> 
> I was more interested to see the weight of that stripped car on a scale. The Camaro is a great car for converting. Its chassis can handle high torque and hp loading. That extra metal in the chassis would be great for holding up batteries. Cd is 0.32-0.33 depending on which site you use. I have just wondered once components are removed how much weight you have to play with.
> 
> ...


 
I thought about weighing it, but I don’t have a trailer. I can tell you it’s VERY easy to push around by myself, even up a small incline. I can even lift the front-end with the wheels on. Not the back though.
 I might have to make and extension on my gearbox case to meet up with the torque arm.


----------



## veperformance (Aug 17, 2007)

The best kit to replace the torq arm setup is an ajustable racing torq arm from bmr ,it will give you a more flexible setup and it is very well made.As you will notice in my picture i had to make sub frame connector but this was quite easy.


----------



## Camaro (Jul 29, 2008)

Alright, I have a little bit of progress to report. I've spent the last few weeks teaching myself how to stick weld. I got a DC arc welder, read a lot about welding on the Internet, and practiced for a while on some scrap metal. Now I have my motor mount done. I'm going to paint it tomorrow, but other than that it's good to go.


----------



## Camaro (Jul 29, 2008)

I know that there are some master welders out there that might laugh at my welds, but I think there good. I tested the mount out by bouncing up and down on it before I put my motor on. It seems plenty strong to me. Welding is kind of fun. I'm looking forward to making the battery boxes.


----------



## Camaro (Jul 29, 2008)

As you can see the motor will sit almost all the way in the transmission tunnel. The next BIG step is to make the gear reduction box. It will mount to the two bars in the last picture attached, and the motor will, of course, bolt to the gearbox. I will also add an aluminum mount to the back of the motor and make a spot for a speed sensor to mount. 
I'm probably not explaining things very well, but in my head it all makes sense.


----------



## Camaro (Jul 29, 2008)

I love this car. You can see that there is tons of room for the motor even tucked all the way back into the transmission tunnel. I'll have plenty of room for batteries in the engine bay, and I've made it so that down the road I can add another Warp9 motor behind the first. 

Maybe five years from now I can upgrade to LiFePo4 batteries, and another motor. Then I could give muscle cars a run for their money!

P.S. Thanks for the stars!


----------



## esoneson (Sep 1, 2008)

What are you going to be using as a gear reducer? Off the shelf product or custom? Cost? Weight? Ratio? The reason I ask is that I have been looking high and low for something inexpensive, light and durable that produces little drag. If you could give me a pointer I would really appreciate it.
Thanks,
Eric


----------



## Camaro (Jul 29, 2008)

esoneson said:


> What are you going to be using as a gear reducer? Off the shelf product or custom? Cost? Weight? Ratio? The reason I ask is that I have been looking high and low for something inexpensive, light and durable that produces little drag. If you could give me a pointer I would really appreciate it.
> Thanks,
> Eric


 
I'm making an aluminum gearbox. Nothing fancy, just two gears, two bearings, and an output shaft. I have my own mill so I'll be milling the aluminum myself, but everything else I'll get at McMaster Carr. Actually I'm having a tough time finding a camaro transmission output shaft (I'm not even sure that's what it's called). I might have to make that myself as well. 

When it's all finished it should weigh around 25lbs, and cost about $250 in materials. It will have about a 1:2 reduction. 

I'll post plenty of pictures.


----------



## kixGas (May 2, 2008)

Camaro said:


> I'm making an aluminum gearbox. Nothing fancy, just two gears, two bearings, and an output shaft. I have my own mill so I'll be milling the aluminum myself, but everything else I'll get at McMaster Carr. Actually I'm having a tough time finding a camaro transmission output shaft (I'm not even sure that's what it's called). I might have to make that myself as well.
> 
> When it's all finished it should weigh around 25lbs, and cost about $250 in materials. It will have about a 1:2 reduction.
> 
> I'll post plenty of pictures.


For what you are doing you could make any transmission output shaft work. Most American rwd vehicles only used a handful of different U-joints on the output shaft/driveshaft connection (1310 and 1340 are very common). You will likely have to get your driveshaft modified so it would be easy to have the shop put a different yoke on it as well. Just go to the junkyard and get a output shaft and you could make it work.
However- I still suggest modifying the rear axle gear ratio rather than making a single speed gearbox. It will be less drag, more durable, and the parts are off the shelf.


----------



## kixGas (May 2, 2008)

BTW- I really like how well that Warp tucks into the tunnel. That is sleek.


----------



## DavidDymaxion (Dec 1, 2008)

I bow in your general direction! That's awesome! I think stick welding is hard to do, I'm impressed you jumped into that.

You mentioned jumping on the racks to test them. Remember the motor will make hundreds of ft*lbs of torque (or even thousands for some cars). Put on the 2:1 tranny and you double that torque.

I have the same issue on my conversion, how am I going to test it, short of actually driving it hard? I'm going to jack up the car on my adapter. I figure if I can't lift ~1500 lbs of the car against my adapter and motor mount, it probably isn't up to the ~2000 ft*lbs of wheel spinning torque the transaxle can produce.


Camaro said:


> I love this car. You can see that there is tons of room for the motor even tucked all the way back into the transmission tunnel. I'll have plenty of room for batteries in the engine bay, and I've made it so that down the road I can add another Warp9 motor behind the first.
> 
> Maybe five years from now I can upgrade to LiFePo4 batteries, and another motor. Then I could give muscle cars a run for their money!
> 
> P.S. Thanks for the stars!


----------



## Big-Foot (Jun 8, 2008)

Hello Friends -

Long time lurker but I thought I would chime in - just a little - on this thread.

I've got significant experience in Automotive Mechanics and Racing. I've been racing with the SCCA on/off since the mid 70's.. I know the Camaros well 1st gen (I currently own a 69 SS 4spd) through the 4th gen..

Regarding the Power Glides - Seen many in stock car racing. Darned good trans and very strong. The air-cooled trans is actually the same as the oil/water cooled ones - just cooled differently. The last car I saw them used in was one of my own 65 Chevelle 6 cyl.

Regarding the differential - Having changed a 3rd gen differential to use a 9" Ford (thanks to Moser - although the first one they sent me was crap) - I feel compelled to tell you about the serious Weight penalty you would pay over the simple integral carrier 10 bolt in your Camaro. It added 75# of weight to my racecar. That's a substantial amount of un-sprung (but very strong) weight. 
-edit- I found the 10 bolt stock differential easily up to the task of our 400+ HP in the American Sedans in the SCCA. Axle bearing wear was a concern though.

Gear boxes - Check out Graingers to see about a simple 2:1 industrial gearbox. There are other places I'm sure.

Torque arm -
All you need to do is capture the torque arm in the up/down moment. That's easy to do and you can (I have ) create a simple bracket that bolts to the side of your tunnel that can do this without and fan fair. Make sure that you use rubber around the end of the torque arm to isolate it from making noise. Do not be tempted to mount it solid as it not only moves up/down but fore/aft as the suspension goes through it's bump/rebound travels.

Advice (if you don't mind) -
I have built many racecars over my years. In building these racecars I have learned one very important principle which is truly applicable in the EV world. Build it strong and _Light_ ... Always be thinking light. For your battery brackets - think about using Aluminum angle from your local metal supply. Yes it's more expensive than steel but so much lighter and when purchased in the proper dimension can be very strong.

Automotive Swap meets - 
Great place to find a pair of older aluminum racing seats. Saves a bunch of weight at the expense of comfort. Sometimes you can find them with cushioned upholstery.

Well - I'll end with that and subscribe to the thread if I can figure out how to check back in with you. 

If I can be of any assistance - please let me know..

Until then..

Regards - Randy


----------



## Camaro (Jul 29, 2008)

kixGas said:


> I still suggest modifying the rear axle gear ratio rather than making a single speed gearbox. It will be less drag, more durable, and the parts are off the shelf.


I completely agree with you. It would be a durable and more elegant solution, and I might go that route down the road, but my problem is the cost. And like Big-Foot said, it would weigh more.
 I might be moving to Edwards Air Force base in a year, and if so I'm going to have to save all my money for Lithium batteries. There's no such thing as a short commute to Edwards.


----------



## Camaro (Jul 29, 2008)

Big-Foot said:


> Hello Friends -
> 
> Long time lurker but I thought I would chime in - just a little - on this thread.
> 
> ...


 
Thanks for all the advice. I welcome any and all input, because to tell you the true I'm just making most of this up as I go.

One of my goals is to keep the Camaro as light as possible. You mentioned aluminum seats, are they cheaper than these:

http://www.octanemotorsports.com/Chevrolet-Camaro-93-97-Camaro-Camaro-Interior-Accessories-Racing-Seats/c12_1026_386_392_252/index.html

The powered seats that are in the Camaro now are very heavy; I'd like to lose them if I could. 

I thought about using steel for the battery racks, but what you have said makes sense. I guess I can learn how to weld aluminum. Now I'll have to get a MIG.  But if I do I guess I could weld my own aluminum seats!


----------



## Camaro (Jul 29, 2008)

DavidDymaxion said:


> You mentioned jumping on the racks to test them. Remember the motor will make hundreds of ft*lbs of torque (or even thousands for some cars). Put on the 2:1 tranny and you double that torque.
> 
> I have the same issue on my conversion, how am I going to test it, short of actually driving it hard? I'm going to jack up the car on my adapter. I figure if I can't lift ~1500 lbs of the car against my adapter and motor mount, it probably isn't up to the ~2000 ft*lbs of wheel spinning torque the transaxle can produce.


That's a good idea. I just plan on taking the Camaro to the auto body shop every month for a while, and lifting it up so I can inspect and clean the underside of the car. It only cost about $5 an hour to rent a stall with a hydraulic lift. I should be able to notice any weak spots in the motor mount by checking the paint for chips/cracks.


----------



## kixGas (May 2, 2008)

Camaro said:


> I completely agree with you. It would be a durable and more elegant solution, and I might go that route down the road, but my problem is the cost. And like Big-Foot said, it would weigh more.
> I might be moving to Edwards Air Force base in a year, and if so I'm going to have to save all my money for Lithium batteries. There's no such thing as a short commute to Edwards.


How would it weigh more? All you would be doing is taking a ring and pinion out and swapping it with another ring an pinion. That is assuming you use the same axle. But yeah Big Foot is right- a 9" weighs more than a 10 bolt but there are other options out there.


----------



## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

deleted

Brian


----------



## Big-Foot (Jun 8, 2008)

Camaro said:


> Thanks for all the advice. I welcome any and all input, because to tell you the true I'm just making most of this up as I go.
> 
> One of my goals is to keep the Camaro as light as possible. You mentioned aluminum seats, are they cheaper than these:
> 
> ...


Check out Kirkey Aluminum Racing seats.
This one (new) on eBay;
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Alum...38081056QQptZRaceQ5fCarQ5fParts#ht_523wt_1121

Is around $150 or so (without the cover) - You can buy them cheaper than that at swap meets. You want a 17" wide Drag race style seat or you end up with rib-cage guards wrapped around you etc.. Not very comfortable.. 
I've seen really nice seats sell on eBay for $100 each with padding. Just keep your eyes peeled. 
You can make the mounting brackets or pull the mounts off the bottoms of your stock seats..

If you want to weld Aluminum with a MIG welder, you'll probably ned a Spool Gun (not cheap). I'd advise that you bolt it together with Carriage bolts and either call it good or then take them to a local welding shop.

For me - the process of fabrication of the car is the most important part for me.. The journey is more important than the destination. 

My GT40 project is taking me a while - but that's okay.. I don't mind at all..


----------



## Camaro (Jul 29, 2008)

kixGas said:


> How would it weigh more? All you would be doing is taking a ring and pinion out and swapping it with another ring an pinion. That is assuming you use the same axle. But yeah Big Foot is right- a 9" weighs more than a 10 bolt but there are other options out there.


The highest ring and pinon set I can find for my diff is 4.1, which is not enough reduction. I need at lest a 1:6 reduction. If you know of a larger gear reduction for a stock 94 Camaro I'll take it! I just can't afford a Ford 9'' right now.


----------



## Camaro (Jul 29, 2008)

Big-Foot said:


> Check out Kirkey Aluminum Racing seats.
> This one (new) on eBay;
> http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Alum...38081056QQptZRaceQ5fCarQ5fParts#ht_523wt_1121


 
Thanks for the link! I'll have to upgrade to a seat like that in the future, and now I know what to look for.


----------



## Jimdear2 (Oct 12, 2008)

Camaro said:


> The highest ring and pinon set I can find for my diff is 4.1, which is not enough reduction. I need at lest a 1:6 reduction. If you know of a larger gear reduction for a stock 94 Camaro I'll take it! I just can't afford a Ford 9'' right now.


Camaro,

I did a quick look on the Summit Racing site and came up with a possible 5.38:1 Richmond Gear Ring and Pinion, 5.38:1 Ratio, GM, 8.5 in., 10-Bolt, 3 Series, Set. 

Try this link. I admit I didn't research as deeply as I should.

http://store.summitracing.com/egnse...94918962+4294791217+4294901322+115+4294776336

Also contact Richmond Gear directly. Check the hot rod swap sites as well.


----------



## Camaro (Jul 29, 2008)

Thanks JimDear2, but I have a 7.5'' and that was for an 8.5'' diff. They don't, or rather can't make anything bigger than around 4.56 for a 7.5'' diff. There's just not enough room.
Thanks for looking though.


----------



## Camaro (Jul 29, 2008)

Well, I said that I would have the gearbox done by the end of March and here it is.
 I know I know, it's just a standard old 5-speed manual transmission. I've been trying to find a splined shaft for my gearbox idea, but I've had zero luck for the last month. So, today I called around some salvage yards and found this 1994 camaro 5-speed manual for $350. It's in good condition and turns very smooth in every gear. Not a bad price and considering that I'd have to spend at lest $200 in aluminum alone for my gear box idea. So I just bit the bullet and decided to go with a tranny.
 I'm a little disappointed about this, but it's probably better in the long run, and it will save me time, which I don't have a lot of. 

Now I have another question. Does everyone here have a local machine shop make there motor to transmission coupler, or is there a place online where I can get one quick? I know that there are stock ones for S-10, and other common conversions, but I haven’t found one for a Camaro.


----------



## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Is the S10 bolt pattern different? You could talk to Craig from EV solutions 
He might have something that works or be willing to come up with something.
I'm working with him on a Fiero adapter.


----------



## Camaro (Jul 29, 2008)

JRP3 said:


> Is the S10 bolt pattern different? You could talk to Craig from EV solutions
> He might have something that works or be willing to come up with something.
> I'm working with him on a Fiero adapter.


I'm sure it is. Also I don't have a clutch. I'm not worried about the adapter plate, it's the coupler to the tranny input shaft that I need to mate with. I need something like PatricioIN's coupler.


----------



## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Find an old clutch from a junkyard or something to use the spline, but remember if you're doing a solid coupler you're basically creating a single shaft running 4 bearings, and if alignment isn't exact you could have problems.


----------



## DavidDymaxion (Dec 1, 2008)

Buying a transmission is a good. A 5 speed means it is a 6 cylinder tranny -- is it lighter than the V8 tranny, and maybe a little more efficient?

http://www.grassrootsev.com has some great videos on homebrew adapters. I like how he gets a conventional pulley taperlock, bolts it onto the motor, and uses the motor itself as a lathe. This guarantees the hub is square to the motor shaft rotation, the best way to guarantee it doesn't vibrate.


Camaro said:


> Well, I said that I would have the gearbox done by the end of March and here it is.
> I know I know, it's just a standard old 5-speed manual transmission. I've been trying to find a splined shaft for my gearbox idea, but I've had zero luck for the last month. So, today I called around some salvage yards and found this 1994 camaro 5-speed manual for $350. It's in good condition and turns very smooth in every gear. Not a bad price and considering that I'd have to spend at lest $200 in aluminum alone for my gear box idea. So I just bit the bullet and decided to go with a tranny.
> I'm a little disappointed about this, but it's probably better in the long run, and it will save me time, which I don't have a lot of.
> 
> Now I have another question. Does everyone here have a local machine shop make there motor to transmission coupler, or is there a place online where I can get one quick? I know that there are stock ones for S-10, and other common conversions, but I haven’t found one for a Camaro.


----------



## EVTransAm (Dec 13, 2008)

I'm doing an f-body conversion with a 1995 Trans Am and just finished installing the motor. Mine is a WarP11 mated to the stock 6 speed with the clutch remaining, so this may not work for the T5 you have, but may be helpful.

An adapter has already been designed and is available, although not as readily as the 4 cylinders, for the Chevy 4.3L V6. The Chevy 4.3L V6 crank\flywheel bolt pattern is identical to the V8s newer than 1986. 
I'm not sure if that includes the LS1s, but it is true for LT1s (thru 1997). Since you have a T5 it was either with a 3.4L or 3.8L V6, I think they switched in 95 to the 3.8 though.

Knowing that, you can at least get a flywheel mounted and then add your clutch. One thing to check is that input shaft in relation to the rear of the engine. If the T5 is not the same as the T56 then the hub bushing wouldn't be located right is you get one for the V8.

This is the bellhousing for the V8 engines, and an inspection plate covers the bottom. The adapter for the 4.3L does not match the bottom 4 bolts, but they aren't structural so I just left them out.

http://evtransam.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/03/bellhousing_layout.pdf

I purchased the hub, ring & plate from a non-sponsor vendor so I don't want to mention them, but feel free to PM me with any questions.

Mike


----------



## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

There's no rule against posting non sponsor vendors, post away.


----------



## DavidDymaxion (Dec 1, 2008)

I love your website http://evtransam.com/ ! That'll be a great conversion. I'll look forward to hearing how it performs!

Have you thought about cutting a hole above the gas tank to facilitate battery installation and maintenance?


EVTransAm said:


> I'm doing an f-body conversion with a 1995 Trans Am and just finished installing the motor. Mine is a WarP11 mated to the stock 6 speed with the clutch remaining, so this may not work for the T5 you have, but may be helpful.
> 
> An adapter has already been designed and is available, although not as readily as the 4 cylinders, for the Chevy 4.3L V6. The Chevy 4.3L V6 crank\flywheel bolt pattern is identical to the V8s newer than 1986.
> I'm not sure if that includes the LS1s, but it is true for LT1s (thru 1997). Since you have a T5 it was either with a 3.4L or 3.8L V6, I think they switched in 95 to the 3.8 though.
> ...


----------



## Camaro (Jul 29, 2008)

EVTransAm said:


> I'm doing an f-body conversion with a 1995 Trans Am and just finished installing the motor. Mine is a WarP11 mated to the stock 6 speed with the clutch remaining, so this may not work for the T5 you have, but may be helpful.
> 
> I purchased the hub, ring & plate from a non-sponsor vendor so I don't want to mention them, but feel free to PM me with any questions.
> 
> Mike


That’s great! Now there are three of us with F-body conversions! I like your website, I need to make one.

Thanks for the idea, but like you said the bolt patterned on my T5 is different. I've actually figured out how I'm going to mate the motor and transmission, I'll pickup my coupler later today. Pictures soon to follow…

I do have a question for you. First, how do you get sponsors? I want some. But really, is your motor just setting on your k-member? I'd like to see your motor mount.


----------



## EVTransAm (Dec 13, 2008)

Camaro said:


> That’s great! Now there are three of us with F-body conversions! I like your website, I need to make one.
> 
> Thanks for the idea, but like you said the bolt patterned on my T5 is different. I've actually figured out how I'm going to mate the motor and transmission, I'll pickup my coupler later today. Pictures soon to follow…
> 
> I do have a question for you. First, how do you get sponsors? I want some. But really, is your motor just setting on your k-member? I'd like to see your motor mount.


Oh I don't have any sponsors, I just meant the shops I bought from aren't paid advertisers for this forum. Since other companies are paying to advertise here, sometimes it's not appreciated to post about other suppliers.

Right now the motor is just sitting on the k-member - the steering rack to be exact. We're working on mounts that will reuse the passenger side bracket and will tie to the bolts above the sway bar on the driver's side. I'm also going to place something on the k-member so the weight is supported there and the other mounts will serve to limit rotation due to torque. I have the metal cut and hope to weld it up next weekend.

Once the car is mobile, I'll probably take it to an auto shop and have them fabricate something that would be more traditional for a motor swap. For now I just want to secure it so I can figure out how much room I have above and beside for batteries.

Mike


----------



## Camaro (Jul 29, 2008)

I now have my motor, transmission, aluminum plate, and coupler. Well mostly. I spent $145 to get a 5 and 1/2 inch aluminum coupler machined to the exact diameter of the warp 9 output shaft, and as luck would have it, it's also the exact diameter of the transmission input shaft. I would have made it myself but I don't have a lathe, but I do have a mill. So my plan is, since the warp 9 uses a quarter inch slot on its output shaft, I'll mill a quarter inch slot on to the input shaft of the transmission, then drill and tap the coupler on opposite sides and put in 3 set screws on each shaft.


----------



## Camaro (Jul 29, 2008)

I just need to wait tell my 1/4'' end mill and collet get here. Here is a picture of the bell housing and the adapter plate.


----------



## Camaro (Jul 29, 2008)

No, I'm not dead.
 I know it has been a while since I last posted, so you are all probably thinking I have it all done by now. Well no, but I have made progress.
 First, I've got the motor and transmission mated. With the good old 12v battery test there isn't a single vibration. Here are some pictures. I cut the plate with a jigsaw, and set the transmission on top of the motor and plate, then adjusted its position tell there were no more vibrations.


----------



## Camaro (Jul 29, 2008)

I've also mounted the motor in place. I made my own motor mount as you can all probably tell by the pictures. It's beefy because I plan on buying another warp9 down the road and matting the two together. There is plenty of extra space in front of the motor for a second. I also made a transmission mount. I've run it on 12 volts with the back wheels up and it's smooth. 

I think the worst is now behind me.


----------



## seniorpumpkin (Jun 18, 2009)

Wow this is nice work Camaro, your an inspiration to us all!


----------



## DavidDymaxion (Dec 1, 2008)

That's great work! I bow in your general direction! I'm glad to hear you are planning ahead for a 2nd motor! I'm surprised to see the motor and tranny balancing, I guess the tranny is a bit lighter than I would have guessed.

What's the little rack under the tranny near the torque arm? Also, why are your motor mounts asymmetric?


Camaro said:


> I've also mounted the motor in place. I made my own motor mount as you can all probably tell by the pictures. It's beefy because I plan on buying another warp9 down the road and matting the two together. There is plenty of extra space in front of the motor for a second. I also made a transmission mount. I've run it on 12 volts with the back wheels up and it's smooth.
> 
> I think the worst is now behind me.


----------



## Camaro (Jul 29, 2008)

DavidDymaxion said:


> That's great work! I bow in your general direction! I'm glad to hear you are planning ahead for a 2nd motor! I'm surprised to see the motor and tranny balancing, I guess the tranny is a bit lighter than I would have guessed.
> 
> What's the little rack under the tranny near the torque arm? Also, why are your motor mounts asymmetric?


Thanks for the compliments but it's not done yet. I'm just happy to be learning some new skills. 

Yes the transmission isn't all that heavy. I was going to weigh it all before I put it in, but I forgot. O-well, I might have to take it out later. Dose any one know off the top of their head what a warp9 weights?

 The little rack under the tranny is the cross member that I made for the transmission mount. The one that originally came with the car was for an automatic, so the spacing wasn't right for the 5-speed manual. Why spend $100 bucks on a new one when I can spend $5 on metal and make my own?
 As for the motor mounts, I've upgraded the front end with a performance k-member. I don't know why they come with the mounts like that, but I made it work. I do know that most of the torque strain will be on the left mount.


----------



## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

Damn that looks good.


----------



## RKM (Jun 9, 2008)

Camaro said:


> Dose any one know off the top of their head what a warp9 weights?
> 
> I believe the WarP 9 weighs 150-155 pounds.
> 
> Rob


----------



## Camaro (Jul 29, 2008)

RKM,
That's sounds about right. A good guess then for my motor and transmission setup would be 300-310 lbs.


----------



## judebert (Apr 16, 2008)

RKM said:


> Camaro said:
> 
> 
> > Dose any one know off the top of their head what a warp9 weights?
> ...


----------



## stormconnors (Aug 19, 2008)

My thought is that you should retain the manual transmission. "Most people leave their EV's in second gear" is certainly not true in my case. Around town, it is true. On a steep hill, I occasionally use first. On the highway I regularly use 3rd and sometimes 4th or 5th. You are guessing about the best ratio, and undertaking a big project- building a transmission. The only benefit I can see is a trivial weight saving. The downside risk is an untested powertrain and a non functioning vehicle. Doesn't sound like a good tradeoff to me.

"If you can't build it right, make it adjustable."

The next question will be clutch or clutchless. For a whole bunch of reasons, I would recommend keeping the clutch.

Storm
http://www.evalbum.com/1059




Camaro said:


> Now things will get a little tricky. I originally thought about direct drive, but even with a 4.1:1 differential gear reduction, a Warp 9 won't cut it, so I plan on making my own gearbox. I have a Bridgeport mill in my garage that I'm pretty good with.
> From what I can gather most people leave there EV's in second gear, which is around a 1:1.8 gear reduction.
> 
> At this point comments and suggestions are more than welcome. What I plan on doing is making an aluminum gear box with just two gears, one mounted to the motor and a second mounted to a splined shaft. The advantage of this setup is weight and simplicity. The down side is I'll only have one gear. Thoughts?


----------



## DJGietzen (Sep 15, 2009)

I am very interested in the progress on this build. I'm planning to start an EV conversion before years end and mid 80's camaros or firebirds with thier engines pre-pulled are a dime a dozen in metro detroit.


----------



## Mo_Bandy (Aug 25, 2009)

Camaro, and EVTransAM ,

Great job guys! 

I recently put my 1996 Vette on the road, I used the 4.8L S10 adapter plate as well on mine, but I kept my Automatic and did some reprogramming. I've had it up to about 55 in second gear I'm still running the 3.07 rearend. 

I had to modify the coupler to fit the torque converter "nub" but aside from that everything from the trans back is stock. I do plan on upping the rear end ratio as well. I have plenty of data logs and stills, eventually I'll also put up a video as well.

Let me know if I can be of any help as well...

Best regards,

Mo


----------



## Crash (Oct 20, 2009)

judebert said:


> RKM said:
> 
> 
> > When I tried to ship an Advanced DC 9", it had to weigh less than 150 pounds. I had to break it into two parts to meet the weight limit.
> ...


----------



## electromet (Oct 20, 2009)

Camaro,

I'm very impressed with your project and have to commend you on your perseverance while juggling design issues in your head. I, too, think that you made the correct decision in installing the transmission. What I'm wondering is how your shifter lines up in the interior given the apparently extreme setback of the powertrain in the body. Are you going to drive from the back seat?--just kidding. I'm following with baited breath.

Mike


----------



## EVTransAm (Dec 13, 2008)

It does look like that, doesn't it? The engine for the camaro was basically 1/4 under the dash so it has to be that far back so the shifter _will_ line up with the factory hole.

This will be a very clean build. I did my fbody removing as little as possible and there are factory wires everywhere. I think I've found I only need about 8 wires of the 100 that connect to the PCM, mostly just to run the speedometer, which doesn't work yet.

Mike



electromet said:


> Camaro,
> 
> I'm very impressed with your project and have to commend you on your perseverance while juggling design issues in your head. I, too, think that you made the correct decision in installing the transmission. What I'm wondering is how your shifter lines up in the interior given the apparently extreme setback of the powertrain in the body. Are you going to drive from the back seat?--just kidding. I'm following with baited breath.
> 
> Mike


----------



## Camaro (Jul 29, 2008)

EVTransAm said:


> It does look like that, doesn't it? The engine for the camaro was basically 1/4 under the dash so it has to be that far back so the shifter _will_ line up with the factory hole.
> 
> This will be a very clean build. I did my fbody removing as little as possible and there are factory wires everywhere. I think I've found I only need about 8 wires of the 100 that connect to the PCM, mostly just to run the speedometer, which doesn't work yet.
> 
> Mike


Thanks guys for your interest. 

While it does look like the transmission is back far, it's not. The shifter is just where it’s supposed to be. I'll post a picture when I get home. 

 As for progress, well. Did I mention I'm finishing my graduate degree  I don't have a lot of spare time, but I have put the body back on, and the motor is in place. I've change the steering wheel to a Grant wheel, and that's about it.
 I need to finish hooking up the breaks, and rewiring every thing. 
I'm hoping to have a clean build. I've taken the car down to the frame and I'm only plan on putting back in what I need to.


----------



## Mo_Bandy (Aug 25, 2009)

When I was going through my Vette, I pulled 8 pounds of unneeded wiring out of it... Incredible!

I did keep some of the sensor wires for possible future brainstorms. 

Mo


----------



## Camaro (Jul 29, 2008)

Here is the picture I promised earlier. I'm hoping to work on the car tomorrow.


----------



## electromet (Oct 20, 2009)

Camaro,

You couldn't have come any closer. Nice work!

Mike


----------



## Mo_Bandy (Aug 25, 2009)

Looking Good! 

MO


----------



## Crash (Oct 20, 2009)

I've never seen the inside of an F-Body so stripped down! Usually I see it down to the metal, but the dash frame is usually still intact! LOL Nice work.


----------



## BHall (Aug 1, 2007)

Looking good. Are you going to do anything about the hump in the floor on the passenger side now that you don't have a cat to go there? 

Brian


----------



## DavidDymaxion (Dec 1, 2008)

Looking good. If you have any inclination towards putting in a roll bar, now is the time to do it! Also a good time for race seats, they can save weight.


----------



## Crash (Oct 20, 2009)

DavidDymaxion said:


> Looking good. If you have any inclination towards putting in a roll bar, now is the time to do it! Also a good time for race seats, they can save weight.


That's right. 4th gen seats are heavy. The power-everything leather seats I had in my 4th gen Trans Am was like 60Lbs.


----------



## Camaro (Jul 29, 2008)

I don't plan on adding a roll bar, but I am planning on getting some aluminum seats. The power seats are heavy.


----------



## johnkw (Dec 29, 2007)

This is amazing. I hope mine looks half this good when I get done with it. I am working on a 95 camaro. I replaced the engine and transmission with an AC55 motor and Klune V.


----------



## Camaro (Jul 29, 2008)

Thanks,
I'd love to see some pictures of your 95.

I'm in the process of moving so I havn't got a lot of time to work on the Camaro, but I hope to be driving it by Sept. I'm moving to New Mexico so I've decided to go with lead acids. I'll buy them within the next few weeks, but I'm still not sure what kind to get. Anyone got an opinion?


----------



## electromet (Oct 20, 2009)

Camaro said:


> Anyone got an opinion?


That's a loaded question! Good to hear from you again. It's been a long time.


----------



## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

If you're going with AGM's I'd say Odysseys/Sears Platinum. Personally I think lithium is cheap enough at this point to be a better choice.


----------



## johnkw (Dec 29, 2007)

I have not purchased my batteries yet, but I was planning on using Deka mostly because I was looking for maintenance free.
http://www.electroauto.com/catalog/battery.shtml

I will put together a few pictures of my car. But it is still being gutted. I haven't started putting it together yet.


----------



## PhantomPholly (Aug 20, 2008)

Jimdear2 said:


> Howdy,
> 
> People are probably getting sick of hearing me spout off about powerglides. But here we go again.
> 
> ...


Jim,

With an electric, why bother with a "reverse" gear? Why not just have a polarity reverser and have two speeds forwards OR backwards?


----------



## Dalardan (Jul 4, 2008)

The reason is if you have an advanced motor, it won't be able to spin adequatly in reverse, arcing a lot. Thus, with an advanced motor, you want to go only forward, needing a reverse gear on the transmission.

Also, if your transmission is already able to do reverse, you can then pass by the additional contactors and wires needed to allow reversing of the motor. It's not something that big, but for a non electrically inclined guy it could mean a lot.

Hope this helps,

Dalardan


----------



## PhantomPholly (Aug 20, 2008)

Ah - that makes sense. I just assumed DC motors all worked either direction just as well - and we all know what happens when we assume....


----------



## stormconnors (Aug 19, 2008)

The cost of contactors to reverse the motor is also a lot of money.


----------



## Camaro (Jul 29, 2008)

That's one reason I went with a stock transmission.


----------



## Rockstar00 (Jun 6, 2010)

Hi my name is Clint I love what your doing with the Camaro I was thinking of converting my 92 Camaro RS it has a 5.0 V8 But the car is on it's last leg I was wondering how much would it cost someone to do this full conversion also would I be able to keep my power steering, power brakes and also my AC I'm very new to all of this but I love the Idea of Electric cars and would like to own one........Thanks Clint


----------



## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

Hi Dalardan

I appreciate that advancing a DC motor is to improve the commutation however 
in reverse I will be using very low current and speed
Is this still an issue??


----------



## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Rockstar00 said:


> would I be able to keep my power steering, power brakes and also my AC I'm very new to all of this but I love the Idea of Electric cars and would like to own one........Thanks Clint


Sure, you can have all that. As for cost, it depends on how much performance and range you want. More costs more.


----------



## Rockstar00 (Jun 6, 2010)

JRP3 said:


> Sure, you can have all that. As for cost, it depends on how much performance and range you want. More costs more.


I'd like to be able to do at least 85mph and have good Acceleration also my car is a 5 speed will that be a problem and as far as mileage goes what is a good rage to shoot for I would also like to install solar panels to help charge during the day I live in Biloxi MS it's sunny all the time......thanks so much for your help


----------



## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

85 mph top speed should be easy. Acceleration, depends a lot on what "good" means to you. Range of 40-50 miles is reasonable with lithium, more costs more. You might look through www.evalbum.com and search for similar cars and see what they do and how they do it. Figure on at least $10K in parts alone, $6K of that in batteries.


----------



## mzachman (Oct 5, 2010)

Any updates?

I'm brand new here, and I was seriously considering doing almost this exact thing to my '93 Z28, so I would be very interested in hearing how the project is still going. If it is finished, I would also really like to know how the performance with that setup is.

I was actually planning on using a T5, just like you, and either a Warp9 or 11, depending on what info I could find out how it should perform with my car (which is why I would be so curious to know how yours is going!).

Also, to the guy with the Trans Am, how about yours? How is it performing now? You have a Warp11 in yours, right? 156V also, correct? 

Anyway, I think what you guys are doing is awesome. I thought I would have to do this all on my own, and it made me a little nervous to even take the leap and get started, but having guys like you who have done it, and done it well, helps out a LOT. Thanks for any other info you can give me too! Hopefully in a while we will have one more EV F-Body!

PS, this car was originally going to be a drag car, and I already have the interior/ac system/air system and some other stuff ripped out, so it's perfect. Also, I will call my new beast....... The ElectroMaro!


----------



## nimblemotors (Oct 1, 2010)

Very cool build! Kinda disappointed you didn't build the 2-speed, would have liked to see it..
I mentioned in another thread, that the C4 corvette with 4+3 trans, has an overdrive unit on the back that gives you a two speed, and is small and light and driveshaft output already there. No reverse though.
Heck, take apart an auto trans and build your own out of the planetary gears. Used AT's are free parts everywhere..
I made a 4:1 fixed gear from the final gear/diff from a Ford transaxle.

Another idea if you want to machine parts, is to modify an open differential into a two-speed. If you lock one axle, the other axles spins 2x. I was going to build one of these for my hybrid project, but instead used a CVT.

http://nimblemotorsports.com/planetary.jpg

I'd also look for some seats out of a C4 corvette. They are very light, yet are very comfortable. I've got a pair in my MG Midget. A Honda CRX also has light seats, used those in my ragged Mustang drag racer. The super lightweight molded fiberglass buckets are torture IMO, had them in my V8 Vega, and my 506ci Falcon

http://nimblemotorsports.com/falconside.jpg

Jack Murray


----------



## infantry11b (Feb 6, 2010)

While I am more of a lurker than a doer - I am a 3rd gen camaro owner - actually I have owned 7 of them, all bought new.
have you thought of a stock chevy 700r4 transmission. light weight - 3 speed with an overdrive, automatic, and the 90 and 91's are not computer controlled so you can make them do anything you want and they will take a beating.


----------



## Camaro (Jul 29, 2008)

Update... yep it's been awhile. 
So far I've taken everything out of the car that I don't need, the drive train is working great, I've redone the brakes, I've put in the front batteries, and I've built my controller. I'm using the Open Revolt controller but with modified software. I'm still working out the software, but once that's done, and I wire the batteries and headlights brake lights and turn signals it should be drivable. I still have along way to go, but I'm getting closer.


----------



## DavidDymaxion (Dec 1, 2008)

Go Camaro go! That's most impressive building your own controller!

As I have mentioned before, my gasser Camaro looks just like yours -- I love driving mine -- I bet you really enjoy driving your electrified one.


Camaro said:


> Update... yep it's been awhile.
> So far I've taken everything out of the car that I don't need, the drive train is working great, I've redone the brakes, I've put in the front batteries, and I've built my controller. I'm using the Open Revolt controller but with modified software. I'm still working out the software, but once that's done, and I wire the batteries and headlights brake lights and turn signals it should be drivable. I still have along way to go, but I'm getting closer.


----------



## Camaro (Jul 29, 2008)

Thanks David, it'll be a great car once I've got it running and redo the inter/exterier. 

I didn't design the controller, except for the software. I got it as a kit and soldered it all together. I changed the standard processor for something I'm more familiar with and it's faster. 32Mhz verses 16Mhz. 

I'm spending most of today fininshing the software, and tomorrow I'll finish the rear battery box. There's 6 in the front and 6 in the rear.


----------



## vilela (Aug 27, 2010)

This is a nice project. Hoping nothing goes wrong, and Camaro runs faaaaaaaaaaaast, as soon as possible!


----------



## infantry11b (Feb 6, 2010)

Wonderful - looks like a 4th gen - what kind of trans are you running with it?





Camaro said:


> Update... yep it's been awhile.
> So far I've taken everything out of the car that I don't need, the drive train is working great, I've redone the brakes, I've put in the front batteries, and I've built my controller. I'm using the Open Revolt controller but with modified software. I'm still working out the software, but once that's done, and I wire the batteries and headlights brake lights and turn signals it should be drivable. I still have along way to go, but I'm getting closer.


----------



## Camaro (Jul 29, 2008)

infantry11b said:


> Wonderful - looks like a 4th gen - what kind of trans are you running with it?


It's just the standard 5 speed. I hope to have all the batteries in tonight and finish the wiring tomorrow. I'll post picture soon.


----------



## infantry11b (Feb 6, 2010)

have u thought of running the standard 700r4 auto - light weight, 3 speed with overdrive in 4th and do not need electricit to shift - spring and tension controlled. you can even get rid of the torque converter, which eliminates weight.



Camaro said:


> It's just the standard 5 speed. I hope to have all the batteries in tonight and finish the wiring tomorrow. I'll post picture soon.


----------



## Camaro (Jul 29, 2008)

Yes, I've thought of many different transmission / differential setups. This was the most straight forward. 

 Here's pictures of me testing my controller and code with the Warp 9. It was only a 24v test but it all worked. I'm waiting for parts to come in this week and then (figures crossed) hopefully I can test drive it at 72v this coming weekend.


----------



## infantry11b (Feb 6, 2010)

so nice. and red too.



Camaro said:


> Yes, I've thought of many different transmission / differential setups. This was the most straight forward.
> 
> Here's pictures of me testing my controller and code with the Warp 9. It was only a 24v test but it all worked. I'm waiting for parts to come in this week and then (figures crossed) hopefully I can test drive it at 72v this coming weekend.


----------



## Camaro (Jul 29, 2008)

My first test drive!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fhtj201zNQ0

Still alot of work to do, but it's driving.


----------



## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Nice work. I'd like to do a similar vintage Camaro someday, it looks as if it could have a very low cd with some minor mods, belly pan, headlight covers, maybe smooth out the front bumper.


----------



## DavidDymaxion (Dec 1, 2008)

Camaro awesome Camaro!

The Camaro's sibling, the Firebird, is one of the most aerodynamic cars ever produced. It is the only stock bodied car to exceed 300 mph on the Salt Flats!


JRP3 said:


> Nice work. I'd like to do a similar vintage Camaro someday, it looks as if it could have a very low cd with some minor mods, belly pan, headlight covers, maybe smooth out the front bumper.


----------



## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Is the cd of the Firebird that different than the Camaro?


----------



## infantry11b (Feb 6, 2010)

JRP3 said:


> Is the cd of the Firebird that different than the Camaro?


no. same body with just a few changes to the skin, and not many. it was on the same frame, same drive train, although the engine in the bird had the dip stick on the right and the camaro was on the left. same engine block too.

i know i bought 7 camaro's new and a couple of birds new too.

i also work on them and still have the 90 i bought new for my wife.

there were a few body mods that were aftermarket. you could get a 2 seater that looked like the soltice with the double hump aft of the seats, but that was a convertable model and not stock. it also had squeek problems as the frame flexed to excess so you needed some mods there too.

when they went to the 4th gen model they changed engines, and eventually went to the current engine design which is now standard.

i plan to be burried in my camaro.


----------



## Camaro (Jul 29, 2008)

Thanks guys,
I really like my Camaro. I think the F-bodies are the most sleek cars ever made.


----------



## DavidDymaxion (Dec 1, 2008)

They are pretty close, but the Firebird is a bit better. I've heard this is due to the pop up headlights (obviously when in the down position!) and the vents that exhaust high pressure air from the front fenders. The Firebird was one of the few cars that the spoiler actually reduces drag and increases downforce.

Anyway, I have always heard the 3rd and 4th gen Firebird aero was a bit better, but the only hard numbers I remember is the 4th gen Firebird had about 12 mph higher top speed in one report I read. My other data point is Firebirds are clearly favored by land speed racers over Camaros. http://books.google.com/books?id=4y...on the Salt Flats&pg=PA94#v=onepage&q&f=false 

BTW, this still make the Camaro aero way better than most any other car!


JRP3 said:


> Is the cd of the Firebird that different than the Camaro?


----------



## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Actually not as much as it looks. Checking through wikipedia there are a surprising number of cars with better cd and cdA, some you'd never think of, Delorean, 89 Ford Tbird, Chevy Lumina, etc.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Automobile_drag_coefficient
Interestingly the squared off 84 Trans Am with the aero package does much better than the smoother looking gen 4 cars which I prefer.


----------



## Camaro (Jul 29, 2008)

A Lumina? Really? Well, I think I'd still rather have my Camaro


----------



## infantry11b (Feb 6, 2010)

the vents are fake - i have a full set i am modifying for the camaro becaues i like the way they look, but you have to make braces to make them work. 

you can also get as an aftermarket plastic headlamp covers that make the line clean.

there is no difference.

the 4th gen is a little lighter body and they went to a much lighter engine block. 





DavidDymaxion said:


> They are pretty close, but the Firebird is a bit better. I've heard this is due to the pop up headlights (obviously when in the down position!) and the vents that exhaust high pressure air from the front fenders. The Firebird was one of the few cars that the spoiler actually reduces drag and increases downforce.
> 
> Anyway, I have always heard the 3rd and 4th gen Firebird aero was a bit better, but the only hard numbers I remember is the 4th gen Firebird had about 12 mph higher top speed in one report I read. My other data point is Firebirds are clearly favored by land speed racers over Camaros. http://books.google.com/books?id=4yaXaPDMn3YC&lpg=PA94&ots=mq2U8AxHaU&dq=Fastest%20Firebird%20on%20the%20Salt%20Flats&pg=PA94#v=onepage&q&f=false
> 
> BTW, this still make the Camaro aero way better than most any other car!


----------



## Camaro (Jul 29, 2008)

Here's a picture of my controller. It's the open source Revolt controller, but with modifications. I'm using a different micro controller and I've modified it to use a Toyota hall effect pedal. I've also added green leds that rotate as the throttle increases. They're just for show but they look cool.


----------



## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

What are you using for cooling? Finned heat sink, fan?


----------



## Camaro (Jul 29, 2008)

I'm thinking of adding a heatsink to the bottom. I still need to run it a few more times and log more data. Then I'll see what needs to be done. I'm hoping for a 144v test run tomorrow. The video I posted earlier was just at 72volts.


----------



## Guest (Jun 2, 2011)

Don't think about adding a heat sink. You NEED one. A good thick base finned aluminum heat sink properly mounted and a fan attached is a must. I guarantee you need a sink. Your controller even if it's home built is a major investment. Don't ruin it. There is no thinking about it. It is a known requirement and you must do it. Do it right and you will be happy. No need to ruin another controller for something you already know you must do. 

Pete


----------



## Camaro (Jul 29, 2008)

You’re right. I should add a heat sink. The aluminum base plate is a half-inch thick. I think I'll mill some fins into it and drill and tap some holes to mount a fan. There's room on the bottom for all that. 

Here are some more pictures. I've finished mounting and wiring all the batteries. Unfortunately I haven't had time to go on a test drive. We're moving to Texas this week and we've been busy with all that.

The next thing on my list after we've finished moving is to attach the break boost pump and reservoir. I can brake right now, but I have to press really hard. 

Then I need to work on the interior a bit. It's been a lot of work but one nice thing about completely tearing down the car is that that I could clean it really well. The engine bay is super clean.


----------



## DavidDymaxion (Dec 1, 2008)

It's looking good!

On my gasser Camaro, I could not lock the wheels no matter how hard I pushed on the brake, even with the power assist. I switched to Hawk HPS pads and I can now kick in the antilock brakes on about 1/2 maximum pedal push. It was a very worthy upgrade on my car.


Camaro said:


> ... The next thing on my list after we've finished moving is to attach the break boost pump and reservoir. I can brake right now, but I have to press really hard. ...


----------



## Camaro (Jul 29, 2008)

144 volt Sunday drive!
Quick status update:
- 93 Camaro Z28 with everything stripped out
-Warp 9 motor, 5 speed manual transmission mounted and installed:
-12, 12v lead acid batteries mounted and wired (six in engine bay, six in trunk):
-Home made 500 amp modified "Cougar" controller installed and programmed:
-12v vacuum motor mounted and wired to brake system:

My to do list is; rewire headlights, brake lights, and turn signals. Replace the windshield, and add motor and controller instrumentation.
After that I'll register her and start driving to work


----------



## DavidDymaxion (Dec 1, 2008)

Awesome to hear you are driving! How was it?


Camaro said:


> 144 volt Sunday drive!
> Quick status update:
> - 93 Camaro Z28 with everything stripped out
> -Warp 9 motor, 5 speed manual transmission mounted and installed:
> ...


----------



## Camaro (Jul 29, 2008)

GREAT! I love it when a plan comes together. Everything is working like I planned.
The only thing I don't like right now is the sound of the transmission. That's the only sound there is, but since I don't have any of the interior back in, it's loud. Not terrible, but I don't like it.


----------



## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

I had a similar experience, I thought there was something wrong with my transmission because I'd never been able to hear it before  I'm used to it now.


----------

