# [EVDL] How to hot rod the Tesla?



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

When these black box OEM EV's start appearing(Nissan, Subaru,
Mitsubishi), how can they be modified for more performance? They
initially seem unmodifiable. The MiEV reportedly uses a PM motor.

Beyond that, it seems like there is a very solid and firm wall that
limits EV performance. Say for example, Telsa builds a powerful A123
pack. High voltage even(4, 5, 6 hundred range). How much from the
inverter? 2, 3, 4, 5 thousand amps? What motor? How big, how much
can it take?

Is expecting Top Fuel performance out of it an absolute impossibility?

It just seems like the performance limit of an EV in an OEM
environment can be reached nearly from the start.

Is there untapped performance and potential out there?

Take for instance the output of the Zilla and the available sizes and
selection of fork lift motors. With the advent of more powerful
batteries such as the A123 cells, it seems more power is available
then can be taken advantage of?

How is it that in the OEM world; someone says "we need an inverter"
and somehow they just build one like it wasn't hard? Who are these
people? Where are these people? Why don't they build these things on
the side?

It's going to be hard to go fast in the electric world. Consider we
can nearly or even likely count on one hand the current fast EV's that
exist right now(ones that could race down the track today).

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

You might need more than one hand to count the existing fast EV's right now ;-)

I gotta say the lead acid pack I'm running right now is no match for the Zilla2K yet. While I get peak battery and motor amps for an instant, battery sag and current decay takes the power well below half of nameplate values. If you had a lithium-ion pack that could keep the current limit pegged on the Z2K you could have a SERIOUSLY FAST EV.

Bill,
You don't happen to have DAQ4 output sample of a max power run on the Killacycle do you? I'm hitting a chassis dyno tonight and will capture the Zilla DAQ output to go along with the dyno plots 

Mike

----- Original Message -----
From: Ryan Stotts <[email protected]>
Date: Wednesday, August 6, 2008 3:46 pm
Subject: [EVDL] How to hot rod the Tesla?
To: EVDL <[email protected]>

> When these black box OEM EV's start appearing(Nissan, Subaru,
> Mitsubishi), how can they be modified for more performance? They
> initially seem unmodifiable. The MiEV reportedly uses a PM motor.
> 
> Beyond that, it seems like there is a very solid and firm wall that
> limits EV performance. Say for example, Telsa builds a powerful A123
> pack. High voltage even(4, 5, 6 hundred range). How much from the
> inverter? 2, 3, 4, 5 thousand amps? What motor? How big, how much
> can it take?
> 
> Is expecting Top Fuel performance out of it an absolute impossibility?
> 
> It just seems like the performance limit of an EV in an OEM
> environment can be reached nearly from the start.
> 
> Is there untapped performance and potential out there?
> 
> Take for instance the output of the Zilla and the available sizes and
> selection of fork lift motors. With the advent of more powerful
> batteries such as the A123 cells, it seems more power is available
> then can be taken advantage of?
> 
> How is it that in the OEM world; someone says "we need an inverter"
> and somehow they just build one like it wasn't hard? Who are these
> people? Where are these people? Why don't they build these things on
> the side?
> 
> It's going to be hard to go fast in the electric world. Consider we
> can nearly or even likely count on one hand the current fast EV's that
> exist right now(ones that could race down the track today).
> 
> _______________________________________________
> General EVDL support: http://evdl.org/help/
> Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
> Archives: http://evdl.org/archive/
> Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
> 
> 

_______________________________________________
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Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
Archives: http://evdl.org/archive/
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----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

I envision the "tuner" market to come in the form of electronics for EV's or
upgrades once the OEM parts die. You'd have to have deep pockets to buy a
$90k+ car and replace the $15k+ battery pack or $5k+ motor just to improve
performance. Just like anything, with money, all can be achieved. I was
looking at the juiced hybrids web site and pondering the same thoughts the
other day. Will be interesting to see how this segment develops. It will be
a different animal for sure than in the ICE tuner market.



> Bill Dube <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> > If you were to take out the 240 mile conventional Li-Ion pack and
> > substitute an A123Systems pack, optimally-sized to deliver the
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Marty Mercer <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> > I envision the "tuner" market to come in the form of electronics for EV's
> > or
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Hi all,
The Tesla would be upgraded and the old pack certainly
would be useful.
You could take the former Tesla pack and put it in
your family grocery van.
Cheers 
Jay Lashlee



> --- Bill Dube <[email protected]> wrote:
> > If you were to take out the 240 mile conventional
> > Li-Ion pack and
> > substitute an A123Systems pack, optimally-sized to
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Ryan Stotts wrote:
> > When these black box OEM EV's start appearing(Nissan, Subaru,
> > Mitsubishi), how can they be modified for more performance? They
> > initially seem unmodifiable.
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Bill wrote:
> 
> > If you were to take out the 240 mile conventional Li-Ion pack and
> > substitute an A123Systems pack, optimally-sized to deliver the
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Ryan Stotts <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> > That's true and it would be a tad faster. But how to make it even
> > faster yet still? We are dealing with or even talking about hardware
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

It would be much more than a "Tad" faster. The 240 mile battery pack 
is a significant fraction of the total vehicle weight. (The total 
vehicle weight is quite small.)
Bill Dube'

e:


> >Bill wrote:
> >
> > > If you were to take out the 240 mile conventional Li-Ion pack and
> > > substitute an A123Systems pack, optimally-sized to deliver the
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

There may be lots of ways to hot rod factory EVs.

How we we hot rod factory ICEs? Take a diesel pickup. Simply
reprogramming the computer will yield HUNDREDS of extra foot-lbs of torque.
Well why doesn't the factory just crank it up? Transmissions can't handle
it. There's be too many trucks back on warranty. But for racing(pulling),
why not.

Many things in todays vehicles are software limited. You just need to
crack the software.

Why can a 2.0L 4 cylinder put out 300hp on the strip, and 150 on the
street? Duty cycle, longevity. Just like ICE powertrains have some
headroom to keep the warranty work out of the dealers, I'd bet EVs are the
same way.

If a controller is rated for 360V, can you hit it was 480V? The Zilla is
rated for 348V nominal input voltage. But the absolute maximum fully
loaded input voltage is 400V. How hard do you want to push it? Do you
have a spare Zilla you can try it on? The possibilities are out there. 
Push it to the limit. That's how racing works. 


I recently found that an Etek motor cannot withstand the no-load RPMs when
hit with 120V. Now you know.


Darin Gilbert
BadFishRacing



Original Message:
-----------------
From: Bill Dube [email protected]
Date: Thu, 07 Aug 2008 12:11:10 -0600
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [EVDL] How to hot rod the Tesla?


It would be much more than a "Tad" faster. The 240 mile battery pack 
is a significant fraction of the total vehicle weight. (The total 
vehicle weight is quite small.)
Bill Dube'

e:


> >Bill wrote:
> >
> > > If you were to take out the 240 mile conventional Li-Ion pack and
> > > substitute an A123Systems pack, optimally-sized to deliver the
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

In addition to what Bill said about replacing the battery pack with one that
has lower internal resistance, there's lots you can do. In an extreme,
imagine ripping out the entire drivetrain and controller, and substituting
your own. A123 batts and a zilla 2K and a good DC motor (or 2 or 3) would
be much faster than the Tesla setup, at the cost of drivetrain durability,
efficiency, and regen.

To get a feel for the future, look at the existing market for hot-rodding
golf carts. People are already taking these 25mph NEVs and redoing them for
35, 40, even 50mph, not to mention serious low-end torque.

Actual text from http://www.cartszone.com/ :

Need more power from your motor or custom golf cart parts, ask about our
> motor performance upgrade. Get more speed and torque with out damaging you
> motor.
>
> We can help you speed up or torque up almost every cart. We say help you
> instead of sale you, because we will help you start to finish to get you
> going.
>
See? It's already begun.



> Ryan Stotts <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> > When these black box OEM EV's start appearing(Nissan, Subaru,
> > Mitsubishi), how can they be modified for more performance? They
> ...


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