# [EVDL] engineering students build award-winning electric snowmachine



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

A recent article about my eighth EV:
http://newsminer.com/news/2009/apr/04/uaf-engineering-students-build-award-winning-elect/

Thanks,

Michael Golub
Fairbanks, AK
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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> m gol wrote:
> > A recent article about my eighth EV:
> > http://newsminer.com/news/2009/apr/04/uaf-engineering-students-build-award-winning-elect/
> 
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

1- I enjoy using evalbum. I am having trouble using evalbum, because I have
built 8 vehicles in Alaska, but when I try to show how one is in Dillingham,
and another in Barrow...the software doesn't seem to allow it. I tried to
explain this before, but I guess I could just list them all as Fairbank's
cars.

2- The BMS came from http://www.black-sheep.us/index.php?cPath=80_103 which
I found out about on the list. Ronald Anderson has been extremely helpful.
They cost $34, and requires a bolt with a 3.5mm tapped hole. (I spent 8
hours on the lathe making more then what I needed.) These are great boards
because they don't require a master control. They will shunt the charging
voltage at 4 volts. They also give a warning at 2.93volts.

3- The batteries worked as advertised, but I hope to do more testing. We got
3C out of them, but that was it except for momentarily getting 450 amps for
a second, it won't keep up. So if you need more then 270 amps
continuous...you need a different sized cell. (or raise the voltage if
possible).

Thanks,

Michael Golub
Fairbanks, AK





> Willie McKemie <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> > On Sat, Apr 04, 2009 at 01:29:15AM -0800, m gol wrote:
> > > A recent article about my eighth EV:
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

1- I enjoy using evalbum. I am having trouble using evalbum, because I have
built 8 vehicles in Alaska, but when I try to show how one is in Dillingham,
and another in Barrow...the software doesn't seem to allow it. I tried to
explain this before, but I guess I could just list them all as Fairbank's
cars.

2- The BMS came from http://www.black-sheep.us/index.php?cPath=80_103 which
I found out about on the list. Ronald Anderson has been extremely helpful.
They cost $34, and requires a bolt with a 3.5mm tapped hole. (I spent 8
hours on the lathe making more then what I needed.) These are great boards
because they don't require a master control. They will shunt the charging
voltage at 4 volts. They also give a warning at 2.93volts.

3- The batteries worked as advertised, but I hope to do more testing. We got
3C out of them, but that was it except for momentarily getting 450 amps for
a second, it won't keep up. So if you need more then 270 amps
continuous...you need a different sized cell. (or raise the voltage if
possible).

Thanks,

Michael Golub
Fairbanks, AK





> Willie McKemie <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> > On Sat, Apr 04, 2009 at 01:29:15AM -0800, m gol wrote:
> > > A recent article about my eighth EV:
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

1- I enjoy using evalbum. I am having trouble using evalbum, because I have
built 8 vehicles in Alaska, but when I try to show how one is in Dillingham,
and another in Barrow...the software doesn't seem to allow it. I tried to
explain this before, but I guess I could just list them all as Fairbank's
cars.

2- The BMS came from http://www.black-sheep.us/index.php?cPath=80_103 which
I found out about on the list. Ronald Anderson has been extremely helpful.
They cost $34, and requires a bolt with a 3.5mm tapped hole. (I spent 8
hours on the lathe making more then what I needed.) These are great boards
because they don't require a master control. They will shunt the charging
voltage at 4 volts. They also give a warning at 2.93volts.

3- The batteries worked as advertised, but I hope to do more testing. We got
3C out of them, but that was it except for momentarily getting 450 amps for
a second, it won't keep up. So if you need more then 270 amps
continuous...you need a different sized cell. (or raise the voltage if
possible).

Thanks,

Michael





> Willie McKemie <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> > On Sat, Apr 04, 2009 at 01:29:15AM -0800, m gol wrote:
> > > A recent article about my eighth EV:
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Congrats! Hope you win 1st next year.

Sent from my iPhone



> m gol <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> > A recent article about my eighth EV:
> > http://newsminer.com/news/2009/apr/04/uaf-engineering-students-build-award-winning-elect/
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Willie McKemie wrote:
> > I looked on you EvAlbum pages and see the
> > snowmobile is not yet there.
> 
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> pratt2 wrote:
> > On Sat, 2009-04-04 at 09:50 -0500, Willie McKemie wrote:
> > > I looked on you EvAlbum pages and see the
> > > snowmobile is not yet there.
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> m gol wrote:
> >
> > 2- The BMS came from http://www.black-sheep.us/index.php?cPath=80_103 which
> > I found out about on the list. Ronald Anderson has been extremely helpful.
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

I don't understand your question.
How does the battery get overcharged?



> Willie McKemie <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> > On Sat, Apr 04, 2009 at 07:22:36AM -0800, m gol wrote:
> > >
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Hey Mike,
Great job on the machine, and the competition. Have you thought about getting
enough Dewalt 36V LiFePO4 batteries to run for next year. I think if you just
take the cells and use your own BMS modules you'll likely get more than 3C from
them  Maybe you could start a campaign to get people to donate batteries
they could purchase new off e-bay, or any other discount tool store.

Anyway congrats, and that was a great article in the Miner, hold onto that
reporter ;-)

Mike W.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf
Of m
> gol
> Sent: Saturday, April 04, 2009 1:29 AM
> To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
> Subject: [EVDL] engineering students build award-winning electric snowmachine
> 
> A recent article about my eighth EV:
>
http://newsminer.com/news/2009/apr/04/uaf-engineering-students-build-award-winni
ng-
> elect/
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Michael Golub
> Fairbanks, AK
> _______________________________________________
> General EVDL support: http://evdl.org/help/
> Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
> Archives: http://evdl.org/archive/
> Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev

_______________________________________________
General EVDL support: http://evdl.org/help/
Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
Archives: http://evdl.org/archive/
Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> m gol <[email protected]> wrote:
> >
> > I don't understand your question.
> > How does the battery get overcharged?
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

If the cells stay reasonably balanced, they won't get overcharged.
You're relying on enough cells to reaching full together that the
overall pack voltage to rises enough to switch off the charger. If this
doesn't happen, really bad things can happen.

Are you familiar with the fire in england with the Battery Vehicle
Society's BMS?
http://www.batteryvehiclesociety.org.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?t=1825

They theorise that this was caused by the charger to switching back to
constant current mode. With no way to turn off the charger, the BMS was
unable to prevent massive overcharge. It's less clear why the charger
switched back to constant current, but shorted cell could have done it
by reducing the overall pack voltage. One shorted cell would be more of
an issue in a small pack, as it makes a larger percentage of the total
voltage that the charger is monitoring.



> m gol wrote:
> > I don't understand your question.
> > How does the battery get overcharged?
> >
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> m gol wrote:
> > I don't understand your question.
> > How does the battery get overcharged?
> > > http://newsminer.com/news/2009/apr/04/uaf-engineering-students-build-award-winning-elect/
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Great article in miner. A very balanced writeup.

The reader comments about the advantages of gas powered snow mobiles - are
the same complaints preventing faster adoption of electric cars.


> >
> http://newsminer.com/news/2009/apr/04/uaf-engineering-students-build-award-winning-elect/
>
>
>


-- 
Curtis Keller
[email protected]
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Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

How many C's can you get out of the Dewalt's

But I think I need a better motor, perhaps the warp7 or going AC?



> Mike Willmon <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> > Hey Mike,
> > Great job on the machine, and the competition. Have you thought about
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

An excellent EV, and a really great article! Thanks for sharing.

-- 
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net

_______________________________________________
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Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
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----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

What's more important speed, acceleration or range?



> m gol wrote:
> 
> > How many C's can you get out of the Dewalt's
> >
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

This year you got points as follows: (850 points):
Of which 550 points you have control over in these areas:

100 points Range
100 points Draw Bar Pull
100 points Weight
75 points Handling and Drivability (Timed course--top speed will help)
75 points Objective Noise
50 points Acceleration
50 points Manufacturer=92s Suggested Retail Price (MSRP)

Another 300 points is decided by these events which are subjective:
100 points Engineering Design Paper
100 points Oral Presentation
50 points Subjective Handling
50 points Subjective Noise


On Mon, Apr 6, 2009 at 4:54 AM, Roger Heuckeroth <[email protected]>wr=
ote:

> What's more important speed, acceleration or range?
>
>


> m gol wrote:
> >
> > > How many C's can you get out of the Dewalt's
> > >
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

I think the main reason to use AC would be to have regenerative =

braking. Does the competition have much opportunity to extend range =

by regen?

Have you considered Lithium Polymer cells, like Kokhams? They =

supposedly have better energy density both on a mass and volume =

basis. One disadvantage would be that they may need to be kept warm =

to perform well. However, they may help in the range, performance and =

weight areas. They might even give you a discount as a sponsorship =

type deal.

How much power do you want the motor to put out on the peak and average?




> m gol wrote:
> 
> > This year you got points as follows: (850 points):
> > Of which 550 points you have control over in these areas:
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> m gol wrote:
> > This year you got points as follows: (850 points):
> > Of which 550 points you have control over in these areas:
> > =
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

It is a rule requirement to use a stock machine and convert it.
In the spirit of the rules...its probably a safety issue.

However, you could reduce the weight by using aftermarket components by
maybe 100-150 pounds...

I don't a scratch-built EV snowmobile exists.

The problem you have is the snowmobile uses the same amount of power that
car does, but you don't volumes of storage space for batteries...



> Lee Hart <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> > m gol wrote:
> > > This year you got points as follows: (850 points):
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

If you have any contacts for sponsorship let me [email protected]

There is very little regen on a snowmobile, unless you go downhill, which
the competition doesn't have an event for.

On Mon, Apr 6, 2009 at 8:20 AM, Roger Heuckeroth <[email protected]>wr=
ote:

> I think the main reason to use AC would be to have regenerative
> braking. Does the competition have much opportunity to extend range
> by regen?
>
> Have you considered Lithium Polymer cells, like Kokhams? They
> supposedly have better energy density both on a mass and volume
> basis. One disadvantage would be that they may need to be kept warm
> to perform well. However, they may help in the range, performance and
> weight areas. They might even give you a discount as a sponsorship
> type deal.
>
> How much power do you want the motor to put out on the peak and average?
>
>
>


> m gol wrote:
> >
> > > This year you got points as follows: (850 points):
> > > Of which 550 points you have control over in these areas:
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> m gol wrote:
> > It is a rule requirement to use a stock machine and convert it. In
> > the spirit of the rules... its probably a safety issue.
> 
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

The judges that write the rules don't care. If you want to build a machine
from scratch they'll tell you to enter the Hybrid SAE challenge where you
can do that. There are several SAE competitions...so they can get away with
that.

However, there may be a movement to rewrite the rules.

Yes, I think the snowmobile can be more efficient. I guess it's the decision
of what is better using a track or wheels. Like an Argo or a Max 6 or 8
wheeler can do better.

But staying with the track...you got lots of issues with the track taking a
huge bit in the snow....



> Lee Hart <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> > m gol wrote:
> > > It is a rule requirement to use a stock machine and convert it. In
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Lee Hart wrote:
> 
> > m gol wrote:
> > > It is a rule requirement to use a stock machine and convert
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Roger Stockton wrote:
> > Well, it is an SAE student competition, so the rules and rationale
> > are readily available:
> > <http://students.sae.org/competitions/snowmobile/>
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

The rules change every year.
This is year was very challenging because they pulled the "electric safety"
rules from the SAE Hybrid challenge and added them to this one. There were
some typos like leaving "car" in there, and some things they wanted but it
wasn't clearly stated.
The link to rules are here:
http://students.sae.org/competitions/snowmobile/rules/

If you have suggestions fro rule changes let me know. What was explained to
me by one of the judges is that they don't want students to change things
which they can't see. Rotating things that fly off a machine can be
dangerous.

There were 5 electric sleds and 11 ICE sled in 2009.

The Zero-Emissions (ZE) category is just a "secondary event" because it has
only been around for 5 years. However, this year we had the most schools
compete in ZE. So maybe the tide is changing.

We could some of these items:

http://www.c3powersports.com/
http://www.carbonsled.com/

When you compare using carbon fiber on a sled it seems to make more sense
then a car.

Keep in mind that you might make the sled gain more points in a certain
area, but that will hurt you in another one. I really wanted to win Range,
becuase there was a seperate award for that from CH2M Hill Polar (Used to be
Veco Polar, that Bill Allen ran...which got Sen. Ted Stevens...in
trouble...and Allen had to sell the company).

We were successful in range. So I felt we achieved our goals.

You might want to check this one out...it's not made by the top four(Yamaha,
ski-doo, arctic cat, polaris) but it only has one ski....just ot sure if it
is legal, and you would probably do poorly in subjective
handling...depending on conditions

http://www.snow-hawk.com/home.aspx

I was thinking about installing the motor in the track...

Thanks

Michael Golub





> Lee Hart <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> > Roger Stockton wrote:
> > > Well, it is an SAE student competition, so the rules and rationale
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

I just read where someone is now making a conversion kit for dirt bikes to allow them on the snow (adding front ski and track) but that's starting to get pretty exotic.

Lots of refinements should be possible if you're not trying to transmit 150 hp!




________________________________
From: m gol <[email protected]>
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, April 7, 2009 3:02:37 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] engineering students build award-winning electric snowmachine

<http://www.snow-hawk.com/home.aspx>



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Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

http://www.explorermoto.com/home_en.aspx



> Frank John <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> > I just read where someone is now making a conversion kit for dirt bikes to
> > allow them on the snow (adding front ski and track) but that's starting to
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> m gol wrote:
> 
> > Yes, I think the snowmobile can be more efficient. I guess it's the
> > decision
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

http://www.camoplast.com/en/

they make the tracks...they have different ones.

The problem is that make them for different types of snow conditions.

But think there room for improvement. I know that there good be more
research done on different types of rubber that would work better.





> Roger Heuckeroth <[email protected]>wrote:
> 
> >
> > On Apr 7, 2009, at 12:42 AM, m gol wrote:
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> m gol wrote:
> > The link to rules are here:
> > http://students.sae.org/competitions/snowmobile/rules/
> 
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Roger Heuckeroth wrote:
> > Is the track the largest source of inefficiency? As I recall you went
> > direct drive, so you already got rid of the CVT inefficiency. Can you
> > modify the track to make it more efficient without sacrificing speed?
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

>=C2 These vehicles don't go > anywhere near the =

>speed of ATVs though... > > Russia is the only =

>place I know of that sells a 52"x20" tire =

>weighing > under 100lbs with only two nylon =

>plys, designed to mount on the same > type of =

>hose reel rim. > > I just wish Russia would =

>trade with the US at reasonable rates! =C2 : > ( =C2 =

>$4500 shipping on $4000 of tires doesn't cut it. =

>=C2 When it's > cheaper to do air freight out of =

>Petersburg than sea freight, someone > is =

>charging protection money along the way. =C2 : =

>) > > Here is a video I made of them that =

>someone uploaded to YouTube. =C2 I > have a =

>broadcast version available for download =

>too. > > =

>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3DZ1LyAd0rPGg You =

>don't need those huge tyres. I mean, Top Gear =

>did it with a couple of Toyotas. =

>http://videos.streetfire.net/video/The-FULL-episode-of-Top_174761.htm =

>(That's part 1) -- Robert "Anaerin" Johnston


Its different. That's fine if you want to stay =

on hard packed snow and ice, but it won't cut it =

in water, snow drifts, or highly irregular =

terrain for example. These Russians are going =

places where they get suck with less than 1psi =

ground pressure and will sink to their waists in snow.

The same guy also posted one of my other snow =

videos: =

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3D09LJQvgRVfE There isn't any drifts in it t=
hough.

Here is one that a guy made for summer time =

use. He didn't use the special thick innertubes, =

he used regular tubes with a reinforcement (with =

tread). The Karakats were designed/invented by =

poor Russian farmers who couldn't use the road =

system in spring and who needed access to their =

farms. The most popular early form was 3 wheeled =

vehicles with 40" and smaller tubes based on motor cycles.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3DDbtJIq3SRcg

I've got the tire and rims for an EV buggy. All =

I can get here are 150lb 44x18 tractor tires, =

which weigh about 200lbs each on rims. I'd trade =

them in a heart beat for some Arctictrans 52x20s =

weighing half the weight. : ) I'm planning on =

using solid toyota axles, a 6.7" D&D motor, 10-12 =

AGMs, and a 500A LogiSystems controller. No =

body, No doors, just a frame and roll cage. =



_______________________________________________
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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

thanks for those great ideas:

This is the GF we used:

http://www.bender.org/specs1.aspx?part1=3DIR125Y&category=3Dground_fault_un=
grounded_small_system
We affectionately called it the "bender."

It was a reall hassle. I bulk of our time was spent trouble shooting it, and
I'm sure why we need it.
How many EVers use it?

I think carbon fiber is great, because you can reduce the weight of the
machine by 50% for a small amount of money compared to trying to do it to a
car.




> Lee Hart <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> > m gol wrote:
> > > The link to rules are here:
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

What's the mpg of the russian vehicle?
What no natural sound with the video?



> Grant Stockly <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> > At 07:37 AM 4/7/2009, you wrote:
> > >Roger Heuckeroth wrote:
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Grant,

I can get you a great deal on Logi controller. Just let me know when you
need it.



> Grant Stockly <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> >
> > >=C2 These vehicles don't go > anywhere near the
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Neat vehicles... and neat tires!



> Grant Stockly wrote:
> > Russia is the only place I know of that sells a 52"x20" tire
> > weighing under 100lbs with only two nylon plys, designed to
> > mount on the same type of hose reel rim.
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Neat vehicles... and neat tires!
>


> > Grant Stockly wrote:
> >> Russia is the only place I know of that sells a 52"x20" tire weighing
> >> under 100lbs with only two nylon plys, designed to
> >> mount on the same type of hose reel rim.
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Jeff Shanab wrote:
> > I happened to work at a company that developed air bags...
> > The corded rubber we bought looked like bolts of material...
> > We cut it with a knife and it was in our case pressed up against an
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> > Jeff Shanab wrote:
> >> I happened to work at a company that developed air bags...
> >> The corded rubber we bought looked like bolts of material...
> >> We cut it with a knife and it was in our case pressed up against an
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Jeff Shanab wrote:
> > The rubber must be heated to cure and the mold must be smooth to get the
> > part off.
> 
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> > Jeff Shanab wrote:
> >> The rubber must be heated to cure and the mold must be smooth to get the
> >> part off.
> >
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Jeff Shanab wrote:
> >> What temperature does the rubber cure at?
> > I believe it is around 300 degrees F, but steam under pressure could do
> > this and is how they heat tire molds. Steam at 0 PSIG is 212, just 55
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> > Jeff Shanab wrote:
> >>> What temperature does the rubber cure at?
> >> I believe it is around 300 degrees F, but steam under pressure could do
> >> this and is how they heat tire molds. Steam at 0 PSIG is 212, just 55
> ...


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