# Thunders-Sky LP12V160AH(a)



## COS (Dec 23, 2008)

I'm a new member/poster here. I am considering this battery LP12V160AH(a) found at: http://www.thunder-sky.com/pdf/TS-LP12V160.pdf

Does anyone know of a BMS for these cells?

Thanks
________
Honda NU50


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## dimitri (May 16, 2008)

What's the advantage of this battery vs. 4 individual cells of 160 AH 3.2 V? Is it cheaper? More available?

I'm pretty sure that its just 4 cells packed in one case and connected in series. 

Also, the document states its designed for starter application, not as a traction battery, perhaps its related to internal connections and their ability to sustain high current for more than few seconds.

I think getting individual 160 AH cells gives you better flexibility in design and layout of your pack, IMHO.


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## COS (Dec 23, 2008)

Assume my battery pack is 11 Cells to acieve a voltage of 144V~154V

"What's the advantage of this battery vs. 4 individual cells of 160 AH 3.2 V?"
I will need 11 BMS modules as opposed to 38 if I used 3.7v cells.

"Is it cheaper?"
Dunno yet. Haven;t got a reply back. Sent email this morning.

"More available?"
Per Joanne from Thunder-Sky it's as available as the smaller 3.2-3.7 Prismatic cells.

"I'm pretty sure that its just 4 cells packed in one case and connected in series."
You're probably correct, I wouldn't know. Anyone else know?


"Also, the document states its designed for starter application, not as a traction battery..."
Aren't all the Flooded and Deep Cycle lead acid batteries everyone uses in the older DIY EV's designed as such? What's the difference here? I would think the higher discharge is a plus, especially when my wife has a"Lead foot".

"I think getting individual 160 AH cells gives you better flexibility in design and layout of your pack, IMHO."
You are ABSOLUTELY correct! However, the battery pack is nothing but a long rectangle. Whether I use a few medium rectangles to achieve my pack or many smaller ones, they'll still fit (Theoretically) but I'll have less of a spaghetti nest of BMS wires and contact rods running up and down the pack. Well, at least that's the plan.....lol

Thanks
________
Honda XR50


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## dimitri (May 16, 2008)

I guess all depends on what you expect BMS to do. Is 'M' for Monitoring or Management? Read up many posts here about BMS features and flavors.

Just for monitoring you could use PakTrakr, check to see if it can "read" 12V batteries in "Lithium" mode. It might be a bit off, but should provide pretty good Monitoring function.

Since this battery is made of 4 internal cells, my biggest concern would be those cells getting out of balance. Maybe this is why TS does not recommend it for traction use. In this config you have no way of balancing individual cells, which is a must for EV use , IMHO.

You can't compare with Flooded LA, those are balanced by simply gassing extra current to get all cells equal, no BMS required. With LiFePo4, you need to use voltage clampers to bypass current on individual cells, hard to do if they are enclosed in a box.

Considering you are spending over $10,000 on cells, is few extra BMS modules really going to make a big difference?


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## dimitri (May 16, 2008)

Also, I read somewhere that only LFP models use LiFePo4 chemistry, so I am not sure what specific chemistry is used in LP12 model, I can't find it anywhere in the doc. I wouldn't want any other chemistry in EV.


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## COS (Dec 23, 2008)

I'll ask them that question on if there are 4 packs crammed into the 12v model.

Now what's the difference on the LFP and LMP, LMP seems to have a wider voltage range than the LFP. Does anyone use the LMP?

If all else fails, I'll be using the smaller cells.

Are there members in this forum that sell Thunder-Sky batteries?
Or better yet, anyone make battery pack?

I'm lazy.
________
Harley-Davidson FLHPEI


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## dimitri (May 16, 2008)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ThunderSky

Different metals used on cathode, Cobalt, Ferrum (iron), Magnesium , produce different cell characteristics such as internal resistance, etc.

Some have higher internal resistance, which leads to lots of heat during high current discharge, which kills the battery. I think this is why some chemistries are only used for starter battery, high current, but only for short bursts, so it doesn't heat up too much.

At this point, IMHO, LFP is the only chemistry suitable for DIY EV builder, because its considered safe and more forgiving than others. You still need BMS, but it can be as simple as cell balancing and voltage monitoring.


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## hybrad (May 24, 2008)

COS said:


> Are there members in this forum that sell Thunder-Sky batteries?
> .


Yes..there are. We have them in stock.

Brad
junglemotors.com


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## toppowerbattery (Aug 27, 2008)

Do you want to get excellent LiFePO4 battery with very competitive price ?
If do , you can visit www.chinatoppower.com 
or contact [email protected]


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## Guest (Dec 30, 2008)

Well! Can you answer the gentleman's question? Does this pack have single cells packed within or is it built like a large format battery? If you sell them you can answer the question. If you can't you should find out. The more you know and the more you know to help your customers you will sell more. 

Bring on the answer to the original question. Every one is sidetracking or does not know.

Pete : )




hybrad said:


> Yes..there are. We have them in stock.
> 
> Brad
> junglemotors.com


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## Georgia Tech (Dec 5, 2008)

toppowerbattery said:


> Do you want to get excellent LiFePO4 battery with very competitive price ?
> If do , you can visit www.chinatoppower.com
> or contact [email protected]


I don't see prices!


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## hybrad (May 24, 2008)

gottdi said:


> Well! Can you answer the gentleman's question? Does this pack have single cells packed within or is it built like a large format battery? Bring on the answer to the original question. Every one is sidetracking or does not know.
> 
> Pete : )


Pete,
I haven't cut the top off yet on any of my batteries for financial reasons , but have seen them elsewhere. The 3.2V TS LiFePo4 large format batteries are made up with multiple very thin layers (think Kokam) in parallel. In the early days the problems were with the connection from the layers to the terminals, which have been solved. 

Hope this helps the cause,
Hvbrad
junglemotors.com


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## hybrad (May 24, 2008)

toppowerbattery said:


> Do you want to get excellent LiFePO4 battery with very competitive price ?


When you can deliver batteries over 55Ah, there may be some interest. Your current offerings are only good for small scooters or bikes.

Hybrad
junglemotors.com


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## Bowser330 (Jun 15, 2008)

Georgia Tech said:


> I don't see prices!


we need prices....


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## COS (Dec 23, 2008)

I finally got a reply from Thundersky and they said the product LP12V160AH(a) is 100% NOT 4 cells in series. It's a single mass of LiFePO4 *BUT* this particular model is not recommended for use in a large chain of batteries more than 3 in series. She suggested using the smaller cells to accomplish the 144v target voltage pack just as you folks have suggested.

Thanks everyone.
________
Angeltraviesox


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## hybrad (May 24, 2008)

Bowser330 said:


> we need prices....


Not sure why anyone would want the LP batteries...they are designed to replace a starting battery. For an electric car, bike or vehicle you want the LFP (LiFePo4) series.

Prices for LFP-
40Ah $69.95 each
60Ah $99.95 each
90Ah $169.95 each
160Ah $289.95 each
200Ah $359.95 each
260Ah $475.00 each
In Stock FOB our warehouse San Juan Capistrano, CA. 92675

Hybrad
junglemotors.com


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