# Newbie Questions



## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

Hiya.

There are lots of argument on the clutch/no clutch debate. Maybe a good place to start would be to have a look at this thread:
http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showthread.php/why-flywheeli-34945.html

It covers many of the pros, cons and opinions on the matter.

Ultimately it would be your call but your call may be based on finding someone who has the same donor car and transmission running without a clutch to ask them how it shifts when they need to shift it.

I am firmly in the keep the clutch camp but if I could find a way to do without I would do and there has been discussion on alternatives.
I am thinking maybe a freewheel between the motor shaft and the primary shaft. The up change would be the same as clutchless, slow and steady as the motor spins down on the syncro rings but on the down change it would allow the primary shaft to spin faster then the motor shaft to ease the loading on the syncros until the motor catches up or the transmission slows down.
Regen wouldn't work like this but that's difficult enough with a dc series motor for it not to need to be an issue.


----------



## rfengineers (Jun 2, 2008)

oates1324 said:


> Hey everyone,
> 
> I have been reading books, watching movies, scanning forums and blogs for about a month now and I think I am ready to begin the *daunting* conversion process.
> 
> ...


Wordsmith has said it all. Except, he is a member of the EVIL CLUTCH religion. The only one TRUE faith is clutchless!!!

But seriously, Either system will work for you, PC or Mac, Clutch or No Clutch. Just as long as you are driving an EV!!

Joe


----------



## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

rfengineers said:


> Wordsmith has said it all. Except, he is a member of the EVIL CLUTCH religion.
> Joe


I most certainly am not! I refuse to be a member of any religion, with or without clutch!




From my point of view clutchless would be the ideal, however, gearboxes have been designed to operate with only the rotating mass of the shafts and clutch disc on the syncro rings. The added mass of the motor armature can, but may not always, cause problems as the syncros are not designed to handle the additional rotating masses. Clutchless works for some vehicles, but not all, where as keeping the clutch will always work.

Until transmissions have been designed specifically to work with electric drive we have to put up with the ICE transmission and, in some cases, have to work with it the way it was designed.

That wasn't too preachy was it???  

You could just go for an auto. That would open another can of worms!


----------



## Qer (May 7, 2008)

Woodsmith said:


> You could just go for an auto. That would open another can of worms!


Or direct drive..


----------



## PhantomPholly (Aug 20, 2008)

Or a constantly engaged CVT. No clutch, no shifting, wide gear ratio range.


----------



## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

Or you could come back. We're friendly, honest. 

Seriously though, if you are keeping the manual box you will find a benefit in using the gears to maintain the motor at its most efficient. It will be the opposite of an ICE where, very generally, use lower gears and keep the motor at high RPM where current draw will be lower. You would probably set off in second and stay there in town and maybe change up to third for high speed driving. If your motor can't quite pull the speed you want in third then maybe forth but it will use more current as the motor speed will be slower and developing more torque.

So the gear change issue can be is related to the clutch or no clutch debate. Much hinges on your driving style and road conditions. If you need to speed up and slow down a lot then smooth down changes may be needed often and that would strngthen the clutch requirement. 
If you would generally come to a stop at the end of a fast run before setting off at urban speeds then perhaps you can manage clutchless as the down change will be made while stationary.


----------



## oates1324 (Oct 13, 2009)

Wow! Thank you all for your timely responses.

I am definitely sold. The clutch stays! I want the most efficient system, and it sounds like a manual drivetrain with a clutch is the most efficient way of going about it. Besides I just want the easiest approach, and it sounds like taking of the clutch is a pain in the arse!

Ok. Another question!

I was originally planning on this setup for the electrical system:

ADC FB-4001 Motor
24 Trojan T-105 6volt
Kelly KDH14651B Controller

I think this is the most economical setup these days for the longest range... at least I hope. The only reason I am not going with a curtis controller is because I could not stand the screech it makes when operating at a low voltage.

Some more questions:

Can I substitute the Energizer GC2 batteries in the place of the T-105's without losing any power or efficiency? The are about 80 dollars at Sams club right now. Can they be placed in the existing system I have instead of the T-105s?

Also, I called a place in my area called Battery Supplies Inc, and they told me they sold T-105's at two pricepoints: $35 for used ones and $89 for new ones. What does it mean for the battery to be used? And should I go with that method instead?

Oh, and what charger should I get? There are so many options! I am looking for an onboard charger that can plug into a standard, 120 volt outlet that can work with either my T-105's or my Energizer set up, which ever I choose. 

Thanks for the help guys!


----------



## Qer (May 7, 2008)

oates1324 said:


> I think this is the most economical setup these days for the longest range... at least I hope. The only reason I am not going with a curtis controller is because I could not stand the screech it makes when operating at a low voltage.


You might want to search the forum for discussions about Kelly controllers...


----------



## hondo (Mar 30, 2009)

I have had the Sam's club batteries in my fiero for over a year and have been very happy with them other than melting off a couple of terminals when I was showing off with my old resistive/voltage controller (I was pulling over 1000 amps at 108 volts). Now I have Paul's open revolt cougar controller and the batteries are a lot happier.
I wouldn't go with the used ones again. Yea you read right, I tried them first to be cheap and it was like throwing $500 out the window. Range was only about 5 miles and they wouldn't charge up over 6.4 volts. Now my range is over 30 miles.
I love having a clutch for quick shifting when I am in heavy traffic but I try to shift clutchless as much as possible. I didn't read in any of the other replies about the thrust problem. Electric motor bearings weren't really designed for as much thrust as you put on them when you push that clutch in, so I try to use it a little as possible.
I just bought a 93 Saturn with a blown motor and am starting my 2nd EV. I am building it just like I did the fiero. Since the motor was blown, I cut off the rear end of the crankshaft and had a hole and keyway machined in it to match my electric motor. It only cost $20. I will cut the rear end of the block off and have it machined flat ($25) to use as my adaptor plate. Doing it this way saves a lot of money. Since your motor is already blown, it doesn't have much value to sell, so why not canibalize it for parts?
Good luck on your charger. There are lots of ways to go. I have two 48 volt golf cart chargers with an additional 12 volt automotive charger in my fiero and they have worked fine. If you have some electronic skills, you might want to try the open source charger in the ecomodder forum.


----------



## oates1324 (Oct 13, 2009)

Qer said:


> You might want to search the forum for discussions about Kelly controllers...


Wow! Thanks for saying that... kelly controllers apparently suck! Haha



hondo said:


> I have had the Sam's club batteries in my fiero for over a year and have been very happy with them other than melting off a couple of terminals when I was showing off with my old resistive/voltage controller (I was pulling over 1000 amps at 108 volts). Now I have Paul's open revolt cougar controller and the batteries are a lot happier.


Yeah I think I am gonna go with the GC2s as well. 

When I first read this I had no clue what you were talking about with "Pauls open revolt controller" but I did some googling and called Paul, and I am sold! Its got all of the features of the Curtis line without the screech noise.

Can anybody recommend a good onboard charger for a 144 volt system and a standard wall outlet?


----------

