# Best Way to Go Lithium?



## Ziggythewiz (May 16, 2010)

A123 has a plant in the USA...don't know if they produce much besides recalls...or you can get the foreign ones with Made in USA printed on, is that good enough?

Other big names for OEM batteries such as LG and Panasonic may operate stateside factories but I'm not aware of any reliable made in USA source for the LiFePo4 that most of us prefer.


----------



## wilkes5 (Jun 1, 2012)

Have emailed A123 a couple of times asking for information regarding a private purchase of lithium batteries for EV, and no response. Have also called and the voice message says the company is more focused on large volume orders. 

Try and stay away from "recalls" .

So..LiFePo4 is the best for AC/regen/EV applications? And LG and Panasonic make batteries like such? If so, going to research on both companies and compare to the lithium batteries listed on EV parts websites (some straight from China factories).

Like mentioned in the opening of the thread, is it better to buy mulitple batteries and DIY it together or purchasing a "pack" either directly or special order. Probably more expensive for the pack and if it's easy to DIY the lithium batteries together, then purchasing seperatly is a go.

Did see a couple of new AC motors MADE IN USA on an EV website, do you think any more components can be found (controllers, chargers, ect.). Going to try and get a custom controller with US parts made, but it will be a long shot.


----------



## Caps18 (Jun 8, 2008)

wilkes5 said:


> Talked to a supplier of Ev parts and was told only two places in the world where lithium is found...China and another place close to Iran. Was thinking "fantastic" a complete monopoloy of communisum and more communisum.
> 
> Planning a AC performace conversion and was hoping to find as many "MADE IN THE USA" componets as possible. Would like to us lithium batteries and was wondering what the best options are in terms of having someone make a custom pack or assembling one yourself. Remeber price/quality ratio and the made in usa preference. Thank you.
> 
> Always what's right.


Well, you shouldn't believe everything you hear.  Bolivia, Chile, United States, China, and a bunch of other countries have metric tonnes of Lithium.

Now, China is where it is 'economic' to mine for it because of the labor and environmental issues.

I am interested in buying US batteries. But, the companies that should be making large scale 'drop-in' batteries aren't doing anything to sell to the home converter. Netgain should work with a car maker to have them build a roller version of the EV1, and then sell the motor, controller, and batteries as a kit. 

For my conversion and repair so far, about every part is coming from someplace in the US except for the batteries, even though they cost 1/3rd-1/2 of the total price. I really should start making a list of the states that I've bought stuff from.


----------



## wilkes5 (Jun 1, 2012)

Caps18 said:


> Well, you shouldn't believe everything you hear.  Bolivia, Chile, United States, China, and a bunch of other countries have metric tonnes of Lithium.
> 
> Now, China is where it is 'economic' to mine for it because of the labor and environmental issues.
> 
> ...


Yes, was hoping to athenticate with others' knowledge about where lithium comes from and if usa lithium batteries exsist. Not just US companies importing lithium from other countries.

We both want more action in the EV world from US companies, maybe even automakers also? It should be simplified...motor/controller/batteries.
Just plug it in, simple like hooking up a VCR. You think rollers should be too? Do agree, maybe eco friendly fiberglass bodies in aerodynamic designs. let someone buy the roller and hook up whatever motor/ect.? Or mabye order a car like such (minus the engine/ect.) from a regular car manufacturer. 

Was reading how some controllers can even be used to charge the batteries. Does anybody know? Can you DIY build one to charge batteries?


----------



## drivin98 (May 9, 2008)

There are a few companies preparing to mine lithium in the US for the express purpose of supplying battery makers. Still, lithium is a commodity, and as such, battery makers will buy it from wherever they can get it at a decent price.

Besides China and Bolivia, Canada, Chile, Argentina, Afghanistan and Australia are just some of the countries with proven reserves. And, of course, the US.

The biggest player in the US is likely to be Western Lithium.

All of this info you can find in minutes with Google.

As for batteries, the type and/or brand you need really varies according to your project. Do you want to go fast? Far? What's your budget?

If you have no experience and you just want to do a modest conversion, go with CALB cells. Readily available at a decent price, they are easy to work with and lots of people here have experience with them. They are from China but really, don't sweat that detail.

If you want to support American companies, there are domestic suppliers from whom you can source a motor, controller and other the things you'll need.


----------



## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

wilkes5 said:


> ...
> Did see a couple of new AC motors MADE IN USA on an EV website, do you think any more components can be found (controllers, chargers, ect.). Going to try and get a custom controller with US parts made, but it will be a long shot.


If you must have AC and would prefer American-made stuff then the only real options are the Curtis 1238 & HPEVS AC-50 combo (~70kW peak) and the Rinehart Motion Systems PM100DX & Remy HVH250 combo (~100kW peak).

We get a lot of new people here each week wanting AC because of regen braking. That's a worthy feature to have, but you are going to pay out the nose for it. It makes about as much sense as paying twice as much for a car to get 5% better gas mileage.


----------



## wilkes5 (Jun 1, 2012)

drivin98 said:


> There are a few companies preparing to mine lithium in the US for the express purpose of supplying battery makers. Still, lithium is a commodity, and as such, battery makers will buy it from wherever they can get it at a decent price.
> 
> Besides China and Bolivia, Canada, Chile, Argentina, Afghanistan and Australia are just some of the countries with proven reserves. And, of course, the US.
> 
> ...


Looking to get around 50 miles with as much performace as possible. Do you think it can be done with a donor curb weight of 3440 (with engine/transmission/ect)?

Definitly look into western lithium + CALB. Thanks for the input.


----------



## John (Sep 11, 2007)

Chile, Argentina, and Bolivia are known as the lithium triangle and I believe have the largest deposits as lithium brines buried in dry salt lake beds. Car companies like Toyota are funding the development of some of these resources. Lithium also exists as a tiny percentage in sea water. It is conceivable that once conventional resources are exhausted it will be extracted from the sea and geographic location wont mater.


----------



## jeremyjs (Sep 22, 2010)

John said:


> Chile, Argentina, and Bolivia are known as the lithium triangle and I believe have the largest deposits as lithium brines buried in dry salt lake beds. Car companies like Toyota are funding the development of some of these resources. Lithium also exists as a tiny percentage in sea water. It is conceivable that once conventional resources are exhausted it will be extracted from the sea and geographic location wont mater.



I remember reading somewhere, a few years ago, that at about 10x it's current cost it becomes economic to simply extract it from sea water. It sounds like a big difference, but based on how much lithium is actually used in a large format lithium battery it amounts to only a couple dollars increase in price per cell with a 10x increase in lithium prices. Basically only a small percentage of your lithium battery is actually lithium. The rest is made of of common, inexpensive elements that are produced on huge scales for other purposes. 

Basically anyone who says there's not enough, to use it in batteries for the electrification of automobiles, doesn't know what they are talking about.

Sorry the number was 5x the cost.


----------



## jeremyjs (Sep 22, 2010)

This isn't the exact article I read,it's been a while, but it's close enough and there are plenty more with a quick search on your favorite search engine.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/01/20/us-korea-lithium-idUSTRE70J3GG20110120


----------



## wilkes5 (Jun 1, 2012)

Tesseract said:


> If you must have AC and would prefer American-made stuff then the only real options are the Curtis 1238 & HPEVS AC-50 combo (~70kW peak) and the Rinehart Motion Systems PM100DX & Remy HVH250 combo (~100kW peak).
> 
> We get a lot of new people here each week wanting AC because of regen braking. That's a worthy feature to have, but you are going to pay out the nose for it. It makes about as much sense as paying twice as much for a car to get 5% better gas mileage.


Just seems like something good to have. Have read and do feel it would be more helpful in hilly areas. Don't think it's going to be too much more expensive, really, but don't know, your're probably right. If too much, then just go DC.


----------



## John (Sep 11, 2007)

jeremyjs said:


> This isn't the exact article I read,it's been a while, but it's close enough and there are plenty more with a quick search on your favorite search engine.


I found an abstract for a scientific article on lithium extraction that said lithium makes up 0.17mg/L of sea water which I think means that you would need to process about 6 tons of seawater per gram of lithium if you could extract 100% of the lithium. Some of the absorbents being experimented with only take up about 40mg/g. It also said the oceans contain 2.5 x 10^14 kg of lithium. That’s a lot of lithium but really hard to get to. I guess the idea would be to place the absorbent material in ocean currents for a period before removing it and processing it to extract the lithium before reusing it. That way natural ocean currents would drive the vast quantities of seawater required through the absorbent membranes. I can’t imagine it would be economical to pump such vast quantities of seawater through a process.


----------



## wilkes5 (Jun 1, 2012)

instead of a big oil rig, a super massive wind turbine, isn't what windmills where first used for anyways?


----------



## Ziggythewiz (May 16, 2010)

No one's getting lithium from the ocean this century. There's HUGE stockpiles of it all over the world. Non issue.


----------



## jeremyjs (Sep 22, 2010)

Ziggythewiz said:


> No one's getting lithium from the ocean this century. There's HUGE stockpiles of it all over the world. Non issue.



Agreed there's a ton of it out there much easier to get than the stuff in the ocean but if it becomes an issue it is there.


----------



## NintendoKD (Apr 29, 2012)

lots of Lithium in Afghanistan...... OOPS!? did I say that out loud?


----------



## wilkes5 (Jun 1, 2012)

We've had one suggestion for "CALB cells" made in China. Anything else decent quality/price which would give excellent performace?


----------



## Ziggythewiz (May 16, 2010)

There's CALB, sinopoly, and Winston from China. A123 from China/Korea. Headway from I don't know where. 

A123s are the best power, but hard to assemble. Headways are smaller so more work to assemble but better power than the others. Not sure where they're made, likely China like everything else.


----------



## wilkes5 (Jun 1, 2012)

NintendoKD said:


> lots of Lithium in Afghanistan...... OOPS!? did I say that out loud?


lots of bad guys too?


----------



## wilkes5 (Jun 1, 2012)

With A123/headway, what pirce range are you looking at to get 20 miles of high performace from AC in a 94-02 camaro? If wanted to upgrade milage, would it be better to just add more batteries or switch to a different pack/type better for distance?


----------



## Ziggythewiz (May 16, 2010)

What's the weight? A123s it all depends on where you get them. Shipping is usually more than the cells cost. Headways are around $1.50/ah'

For a 3000 lbs vehicle you'd need around 8.5 kWh, ~$4k for headway

For more range, add more cells in parallel.


----------



## wilkes5 (Jun 1, 2012)

Ziggythewiz said:


> What's the weight? A123s it all depends on where you get them. Shipping is usually more than the cells cost. Headways are around $1.50/ah'
> 
> For a 3000 lbs vehicle you'd need around 8.5 kWh, ~$4k for headway
> 
> For more range, add more cells in parallel.


Visited headway's site. Looks impressive. Going to call and get some more info. Fingers crossed as to where it's made. Thanks very much to everyone for all the input, hope your kindness is returned to you equally. Was thinking of starting a new thread, would like a list of all parts (motor/controller/ect) MADE IN USA, we've already covered batteries. Looking for performace whenever feasible.


----------



## Ziggythewiz (May 16, 2010)

Sounds like a good idea, good luck implementing. I'm sure you're heard of visiting the Made in USA store and peeling a tag to find China underneath...everything.


----------



## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

Lithium is a salt. It is extracted from old dry lake beds. In it's natural form, it is non-toxic.

The USA has 20% of the world's lithium. Our largest mine was in North Carolina.
But lower Chinese prices caused it to close. 

China also has 20% of the world's supply of lithium. But no labor laws or EPA protections.

South America has the remaining sources of lithium. About 60%. Four countries are presently organizing their equivalent of O.P.E.C. To deal with the coming trade. 

Lithium is the premier element when it comes to batteries. It requires no improvement. So future cell improvements will have to be in the matrix that holds the lithium. It looks like graphine nano-tubes are the answer. Growing them in a manufacturing scale is the problem.

Until then, The cells we currently have are going to be the industry "standard". (I'm thinking for 10 years or so).

Miz


----------



## wilkes5 (Jun 1, 2012)

mizlplix said:


> Lithium is a salt. It is extracted from old dry lake beds. In it's natural form, it is non-toxic.
> 
> The USA has 20% of the world's lithium. Our largest mine was in North Carolina.
> But lower Chinese prices caused it to close.
> ...


aware I am how most business on earth is...bad. gets me really angry really fast. enough to wish unexsistance on all government throughout the entire universe, and then to have what is right after. people rich off children working turned into homeless overnight, an example of right. Sorry to affend anyone who has helped me so far, o well. evil people in power is upsetting, evil people in power leading me is more upsetting.

mabye get the EV built and light speed to a good place? still wish had the farm of solar panels to power it and ask the tax man if he wants to go to war. wish the best of luck to all derserving of independance


----------



## ricklearned (Mar 3, 2012)

wilkes5 said:


> ...... wish the best of luck to all derserving of independance


Yes, in a few weeks we can all celebrate our great country and the independence we enjoy as citizens. It is a good life.


----------



## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

Seconded, Even if we still have problems, We are still the greatest place for an individual to live. Bar none. Lower taxes, greater freedoms, less restrictions, more room, more choices in everything, (for everyone).

Yah, tip a can and eat a burger on the Fourth.

Miz


----------



## wilkes5 (Jun 1, 2012)

Found another manufacturer of lithium batteries, not sure for EV. Molicel. Might be way more expensive and thus excluded as an option.

http://www.molicel.com/ca/products.html

On the page reads...

*"Our facilities in Canada and Taiwan are ISO 9001:2008 (Quality) and ISO 14001:2004 (Environmental) Management System registered sites. Utilizing these Management Systems, allows us to provide a superior quality and environmentally sustainable product to all our customers*."

It took a bit of searching, and suprisingly the site seems better than A123 and Headway's. However, another quote reads

*Notice to Readers - In order to ensure a safe battery pack, the use of a properly designed safety circuit is essential. MOLICEL® lithium-ion cells are not sold as "bare cells" to consumers. The cells are required to be assembled into battery packs by authorized pack assemblers. Authorized pack assemblers have knowledge of safe lithium-ion pack and circuitry design and employ proper assembly techniques.*


Check it out. The difference between Taiwan and China, anyone?


----------



## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

About 1200K of ocean.

Taiwan is an island in the China Sea, off the coast of mainland China (Proper).
It is a country in It's own right and separate from China. It's capitol is Taipei.

Miz


----------

