# Rinehart PM250DZ



## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

Just found a pic of the new Rinehart. 380kW peak ?
450A continuous 
600A peak 
800VDC Max AC motor controller


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## jonescg (Nov 3, 2010)

Perfect for a supercar, towtruck or drag vehicle. Or all three 

Its rated at 250 kW, but based on those currents and a 720 V DC bus, you're looking at a massively powerful inverter!

Pmotor = sqrt(3) * (VDC/sqrt(2)) * Irms * PF * eff

= 1.732 * 509 * 600 * 0.8 * 0.9

= 380 kW!

That said efficiency is probably pretty low at those currents, power factor for most motors is rarely above 80% and sag is inevitable. But still. BEAST!


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## Nuts&Volts (Dec 20, 2011)

Wow, thats beautiful. 3 massive film caps on the left it looks like. Possilby 3 individual IGBT modules for each phase, maybe just one super long module. Pretty killer in what seems like a compact enclosure (maybe 15" x 11" x 3.5" tall) from the looks of the picture


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## PZigouras (Jun 5, 2010)

Nuts&Volts said:


> Wow, thats beautiful. 3 massive film caps on the left it looks like. Possilby 3 individual IGBT modules for each phase, maybe just one super long module. Pretty killer in what seems like a compact enclosure (maybe 15" x 11" x 3.5" tall) from the looks of the picture


 Are those SBE caps under there? It looks like their bolt pattern


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## Hollie Maea (Dec 9, 2009)

First units being delivered this coming month. It's a masterpiece...


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## Nuts&Volts (Dec 20, 2011)

PZigouras said:


> Are those SBE caps under there? It looks like their bolt pattern


Not sure. That sounds familiar. I just had a PM100 in the past and opened it and got a good look at the layout.


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## frodus (Apr 12, 2008)

I've seen it in person, the thing is beautiful. Going in some cool projects soon.


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## ishiwgao (May 5, 2011)

looks awesome! any spec sheet made publicly available yet?


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## Hollie Maea (Dec 9, 2009)

ishiwgao said:


> looks awesome! any spec sheet made publicly available yet?


They haven't published the data sheet publicly quite yet. Should be out soon though.


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## Hollie Maea (Dec 9, 2009)

They now have a (small) image of the drive on the RMS website:


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## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

Those aren't SBE caps, or they aren't standard ones, anyway.

That said, the layout looks very good and exhibits an impressive amount of space optimization. I sure would hate to troubleshoot/service one, though...


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

jonescg said:


> Perfect for a supercar, towtruck or drag vehicle. Or all three
> Its rated at 250 kW, but based on those currents and a 720 V DC bus, you're looking at a massively powerful inverter!
> Pmotor = sqrt(3) * (VDC/sqrt(2)) * Irms * PF * eff
> [h1] 1.732 * 509 * 600 * 0.8 * 0.9
> ...


Pfft we came up with the same answer but totally different formula.
Its said this thing will fault code at 820v so you could run 188 LiPo cells in series for 790v x 600A = 474kW x 80% = 379kW.
I gleaned the 80% rule from the Rinehart spec sheet...
now you know why I don't do math !
Anyway 188 LiPo in series can break down to 4 small packs of 47s 197.5v and charged with 4 Elcons.
But for now keep dreaming because they are going for about $20k


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

So hows my architecture ?


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## winzeracer (Apr 3, 2012)

John Metric posted this on FB, sure looks like a nice package. Made me wonder if Mr Metric was going to do an AC dragster. This inverter would be killer with an Evo AFM-240 and a sequential 3 speed!


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## EVCan (Oct 11, 2012)

Looks a lot like the TM4 9 phase inverter with 3 caps and 3 IGBT. 
http://tm4.com/technologies/power-electronics/multiphase/


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## Hollie Maea (Dec 9, 2009)

EVCan said:


> Looks a lot like the TM4 9 phase inverter with 3 caps and 3 IGBT.
> http://tm4.com/technologies/power-electronics/multiphase/


About half the weight--17kg vs 35kg.


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## jonescg (Nov 3, 2010)

winzeracer said:


> John Metric posted this on FB, sure looks like a nice package. Made me wonder if Mr Metric was going to do an AC dragster. This inverter would be killer with an Evo AFM-240 and a sequential 3 speed!


Would you even need the three speed? I guess if you want to wind it out to the top end you might need to. AFM240 gives you about 1200 Nm of peak torque


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## winzeracer (Apr 3, 2012)

Getting a bit off topic here, but IMO a car with the described setup should be able to do let's say minimum 150mph. The AFM-240 has a max speed of 5000rpm, for factor of safety let's trim that to 4700rpm. Let's assume a big performance rear tire has a height of 27.2 inches (2014 Porsche 991 GT3). Lets assume direct drive, no trans, and a rear differential. With a little cheating from the Tremec gear calc www.tremec.com/calculadora.php Your rear differential ratio would have to be near 2.53 to reach 150mph. Which would be a difficult ratio to find, maybe have to have it made. Then you would have to decide if the low end acceleration met the demands of the application. 

Looks like a good job for a small 2 or maybe 3 speed trans to me... And ofcourse some flappy paddles, those make everyone happy


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

I wonder if this thing could blow up a Solectria AC90 ?
Might have to wait for the PM350


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## gunnarhs (Apr 24, 2012)

Hollie Maea said:


> About half the weight--17kg vs 35kg.


Still very heavy. Is that with the cooling liquid equipment?


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## Hollie Maea (Dec 9, 2009)

gunnarhs said:


> Still very heavy. Is that with the cooling liquid equipment?


Well, it's a big controller. Still, at 16kW/kg I think it's the most power dense AC controller on the market.

Not sure what you mean by "cooling liquid equipment". Of course pump, radiator, hoses and fluid are separate


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## gunnarhs (Apr 24, 2012)

Hollie Maea said:


> Well, it's a big controller. Still, at 16kW/kg I think it's the most power dense AC controller on the market.
> 
> Not sure what you mean by "cooling liquid equipment". Of course pump, radiator, hoses and fluid are separate


 OK, that is what I was meaning  If I assume the 97% efficiency stated in the paper also for 300 kW the cooling equipment would have to be quite solid.
Even at 200 kW continuous performance you have > 5kW to get rid off.


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## Hollie Maea (Dec 9, 2009)

gunnarhs said:


> the cooling equipment would have to be quite solid.


You're right about that! Something like 25 L/min at 19psi...


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## Ai! (May 9, 2014)

high power density = high temperature density, always.


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## CBrune (Nov 12, 2009)

Just came across this thread. Thanks for the positive comments.
I wanted to make a couple of corrections.
Pricing for one piece is $12,500, not close to $20k.
Yes, it is using SBE caps.
The weight without cable glands and coolant is a little under 18kg, 20kg was our target and we beat it. We put a lot of effort into reducing the weight.
PM250DZ is our name for the product, but as pointed out already it is capable of putting out much more than 250kW. I don't like to quote power ratings as the motor characteristics play such a big role in this.


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## aeroscott (Jan 5, 2008)

Could you expand on how motors effect the max power of the PM250DZ. I'm particularity interested in the PM Remy in the Volt .Which would take 2 controllers.

Well not necessarily 2 controllers because the motors can be clutched into one motor .


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## Hollie Maea (Dec 9, 2009)

aeroscott said:


> Could you expand on how motors effect the max power of the PM250DZ. I'm particularity interested in the PM Remy in the Volt .Which would take 2 controllers.
> 
> Well not necessarily 2 controllers because the motors can be clutched into one motor .


What core length and winding configuration is your motor?


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## CBrune (Nov 12, 2009)

aeroscott said:


> Could you expand on how motors effect the max power of the PM250DZ. I'm particularity interested in the PM Remy in the Volt .Which would take 2 controllers.
> 
> Well not necessarily 2 controllers because the motors can be clutched into one motor .


If for example the motor can only handle 300Arms then the power capability of the controller would be limited by the motor. Additionally the motor will have a certain power factor that will change depending on the operating conditions. If the power factor is low it will reduce the power capability of the inverter. Lastly, motor will have a certain back EMF voltage for a given speed. If this constant is low it may limit the power capability of the controller as the effective motor voltage will be below the maximum that the controller is capable of.


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## aeroscott (Jan 5, 2008)

I don't have the volt trans (motor) . The Remy motor when brought out was shorter then the Prius . Volts version may be the same as the Remy data sheet, but I have not seen one apart yet.

The voltage may be able to be doubled by putting in series the 2 motors .

If motor is wound for high voltage/ more turns= higher back emf ,thus the motor will see less effective voltage and less power?

A low voltage winding will mean less power at slower speeds ,but as the speed of the motor increases there will be less increase in back emf then it's high voltage version . The torque will remain at higher rpm's ?
Meaning higher hp.


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## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

aeroscott said:


> ...The voltage may be able to be doubled by putting in series the 2 motors .


The short answer is that you can't wire AC motors in series. A possible exception is if you drive them in straight, open-loop V/Hz mode.



aeroscott said:


> If motor is wound for high voltage/ more turns= higher back emf ,thus the motor will see less effective voltage and less power?


More armature* turns does equal a higher BEMF, but otherwise you have the relationship between BEMF and power completely backwards (regardless of motor type); higher BEMF (if current is the same) = higher power. The difference between the voltage delivered by the drive and the BEMF of the motor (again, for any motor type) is more or less from losses in the motor and wiring.


* - yes, AC motors have an armature; it's usually the stator.


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## eldis (Sep 3, 2013)

Hollie Maea said:


> Well, it's a big controller. Still, at 16kW/kg I think it's the most power dense AC controller on the market.
> 
> Not sure what you mean by "cooling liquid equipment". Of course pump, radiator, hoses and fluid are separate


I've weighed the Tesla inverter yesterday, and the needle stopped at 13kg. That puts it slightly over 23kW/kg


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## Ai! (May 9, 2014)

I think tesla got actually ~200 kW inverter, because 300(307 or 320) kW point is achieved only for several seconds and then limited by the control algorithm to prevent overheating.


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## eldis (Sep 3, 2013)

Ai! said:


> I think tesla got actually ~200 kW inverter, because 300(307 or 320) kW point is achieved only for several seconds and then limited by the control algorithm to prevent overheating.


Yeah, I was just thinking about how they define these things.. For example, if they claim that the car has 310kW peak power, I guess that this includes the motor losses (quite significant at these levels) and gearbox losses. That would mean that the inverter has to push at least 15% more power. Also with combustion engines (the laws of Switzerland) the power of a car is stated as "continuous power that the motor can deliver indefinitely in certain conditions (rpm..)"

I don't think that Tesla inverter can do 310 * 1.15 = 356kW power indefinitely. Probably just for few seconds. Maybe it could sustain it for longer, and the battery being overstressed is the main factor - I don't know, and probably we will never know (testing some inverter on the table with 350kW continuous is not an easy task!)


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## winzeracer (Apr 3, 2012)

Not to mention that you are comparing apples to oranges. An OEM inverter that works with one motor to an inverter that works with a laundry list of the best motors on the market is not a great comparison.


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## eldis (Sep 3, 2013)

winzeracer said:


> Not to mention that you are comparing apples to oranges. An OEM inverter that works with one motor to an inverter that works with a laundry list of the best motors on the market is not a great comparison.


Not sure how a configuration file stored in the FW affects the inverter output power. No, I'm not comparing anything. In fact I'm trying to teach that inverter new motors. I'm sorry if the kW/kg figure insulted someone, it was not meant for that. Just saw a number and felt like offering a comparison with other manufactured inverters.

Haha that came out funny.. Indeed I am comparing, but just the power density figure. Thinking about it a bit more, the motor could affect the max power rating of an inverter - for example if you don't tune the motor parameters perfectly, you can have quite a bit of current ripple, or some instability in the feedback loop, causing your ratings to go down.


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

CBrune said:


> Just came across this thread. Thanks for the positive comments.
> I wanted to make a couple of corrections.
> Pricing for one piece is $12,500, not close to $20k.
> Yes, it is using SBE caps.
> ...


I think we've fished out someone from Rinehart so an introduction is in order, "C" whats your position at Rinehart for those of us who are not familiar.
Yes your $12.500 US quickly turns into $20.000 AUD once it lands at ELMOFO here in OZ. Thanks for the weight specs.


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## Ai! (May 9, 2014)

"С" - Chris, by the way)


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## Hollie Maea (Dec 9, 2009)

Ai! said:


> "С" - Chris, by the way)


And he's the VP of Engineering


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## Sutho (Apr 10, 2012)

RIPPERTON said:


> I think we've fished out someone from Rinehart so an introduction is in order, "C" whats your position at Rinehart for those of us who are not familiar.
> Yes your $12.500 US quickly turns into $20.000 AUD once it lands at ELMOFO here in OZ. Thanks for the weight specs.


I don't know where you got the AU$20,000 figure from, but you should do the maths Danny as it's pretty damn accurate....not an inflation as you are implying.

US$12,500 = ~AU$16,700 + Freight + DUTY + Customs Handling + GST = ~AU$19,980.

ELMOFO price = AU$18,890


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