# torque of 9" dc with 144v pack?



## dtbaker (Jan 5, 2008)

...trying to make sure tranny can handle it... what is the max torque delivered by 9" DC motor w/ 144v pack? can't find a graph to answer from ADC or Netgain, or maybe I am reading them wrong.


----------



## Guest (Mar 24, 2011)

You control the torque with amps and voltage. The voltage won't give you torque but amps will. It then depends upon what your controller can belt out. That is why I say you want a controller that will belt out better than 500 amps when you need it or want it. Not that you have to do that all the time mind you. So a Soliton can belt out more amps into the motor than my synkromotive which can belt out more than the typical Curtis. The Zilla 2K beats them all. Or you could just go with a contact switch and have full amps available like right now but no control of the amps. Then it depends upon if your batteries can provide the level of amperage you desire. My 1C 100 AH cells cant belt out more than what my synkro can tolerate. I'd bet the new TS cells could over power my Synkromotive if I did not limit my current. 

So you see there are many variables. Can't answer your question. 

Pete


----------



## dtbaker (Jan 5, 2008)

ok, lets add the restriction of '144v at 500 battery amps'.


----------



## tomofreno (Mar 3, 2009)

ADC FB1 4001 gives about 110 lb-ft at 500A irregardless of voltage.


----------



## EVfun (Mar 14, 2010)

dtbaker said:


> ok, lets add the restriction of '144v at 500 battery amps'.


The voltage is irrelevant to torque, it will apply to the rpms where full torque is available, but torque is a matter of amps with a series wound motor. 

The ADC 9 inch motor and WarP 9 motor (not Impulse 9 motor) that are commonly used will make about 100 ft-lb of torque at 500 amps. With a 144 volt pack that sags to about 126 volts at 500 amps you can expect to make peak torque from 0 rpm to about 3700 rpm. You will have about 71 HP at about 3700 rpm.


----------



## tomofreno (Mar 3, 2009)

> With a 144 volt pack that sags to about 126 volts at 500 amps you can expect to make peak torque from 0 rpm to about 3700 rpm.


 Really? Looks more like 2700 - 2800 rpm to me from the torque-speed curves, but I have no real experience with it. Edit: Whoops, sorry, I was reading the graph incorrectly, looks like around 3400 rpm on the graph so 3700 seems reasonable.


----------



## Yabert (Feb 7, 2010)

dtbaker said:


> ...trying to make sure tranny can handle it....


Your tranny can maybe take 100 lbs-ft at the input..... but if you have small tire, they can't transmit all this torque to the ground! (especially in first, second and third gear). So, the wheels spin and the input torque at the transmission is lower than 100 lbs-ft.


----------



## dtbaker (Jan 5, 2008)

excellent info, exactly what I need to ask the next question. 

If I can expect torque of about 110 ft# from 500 amps... but want more and go out and get a controller capable of delivering say 1000amps the question becomes 'how long can I put 1000 amps into a 9" DC motor before I have thermal problems', and would the 1000 amp controller deliver 220 ft#.

the followup question would be along the lines of which would have thermal problems first, the motor or Thundersky/CALB cells that were being asked to deliver 10C ?


----------



## GerhardRP (Nov 17, 2009)

dtbaker said:


> ...trying to make sure tranny can handle it... what is the max torque delivered by 9" DC motor w/ 144v pack? can't find a graph to answer from ADC or Netgain, or maybe I am reading them wrong.


You might look at some calculations I did a while back, particularly the curves at the bottom: http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showthread.php?t=39931&highlight=motor+theory
I think the first thing to go is the Commutator at about 100kW, but your battery pack wont quite deliver that.
Gerhard
P.S. Note that there is still an unresolved discrepancy between Netgain's published curves and data from forum members.


----------



## ElectriCar (Jun 15, 2008)

dtbaker said:


> excellent info, exactly what I need to ask the next question.
> 
> If I can expect torque of about 110 ft# from 500 amps... but want more and go out and get a controller capable of delivering say 1000amps the question becomes 'how long can I put 1000 amps into a 9" DC motor before I have thermal problems', and would the 1000 amp controller deliver 220 ft#.
> 
> the followup question would be along the lines of which would have thermal problems first, the motor or Thundersky/CALB cells that were being asked to deliver 10C ?


I have that motor and a Curtis 1231C which I'm having upgraded to 1000A. I can get you the guy's info if you're interested. It's a $650 upgrade which will also make it run cooler for a given voltage. Since I upped my voltage I'm having heat problems even in cooler night time temps. I'm also adding a heatsink but reducing the source of heat will help as well. He said likely I wouldn't need fans after the upgrade as long as I had the heatsink installed. Now that would really be an improvement!

I am working to get my truck to be as functional as the gas version. Now at highway speeds it overheats if trying to maintain 65-70mph. The guy told me it's the diodes inside which create a lot of heat at 160-165V.


----------



## JRoque (Mar 9, 2010)

Hey EC, regarding the upgrade, will your controller be able to recognize the additional 500A or does the upgrade also changes the current measurement so it reads half of actual? Would it be possible to find out the part number of the new switches they're swapping in? I curious to look in the spec sheet.

JR


----------



## ElectriCar (Jun 15, 2008)

I don't know about the current measurement but I'm sure it does somehow or the upgrade wouldn't work. It may just be a trimpot swap or such. All I know is he says there are 18 mosfets he's swapping to 130A and some diodes as well.


----------



## ElectriCar (Jun 15, 2008)

Here's another comment about the current after the upgrade. 
"The max amps for the control is 1000 for 2 minutes and it will handle 400 amps continuously."


----------



## dtbaker (Jan 5, 2008)

so, the continuous rating is not changed... just the max burst. I'd consider something like Soliton Jr, or Soliton 1 if you really need something designed for higher continuous power....


----------



## JRoque (Mar 9, 2010)

Or maybe also liquid cool the Curtis to get higher continuous current.

JR


----------



## tomofreno (Mar 3, 2009)

> the followup question would be along the lines of which would have thermal problems first, the motor or Thundersky/CALB cells that were being asked to deliver 10C ?


 I think you should go with Headway cells or similar (cylindrical cells with thinner electrode coatings for higher power) rather than subjecting TS or CALB to 10C.


----------



## tomofreno (Mar 3, 2009)

> Or maybe also liquid cool the Curtis to get higher continuous current.


Which you will also have to do with the Soliton1 if you want to run higher continuous current. Where do you plan to run higher than 400A continuous?

I guess you saw this post under "performance":
http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showpost.php?p=248960&postcount=8


----------



## piotrsko (Dec 9, 2007)

I actually got the impression from Tess that Sol-1's could do 500/600 amps continuous with just the air cooling depending on ambient..


----------



## tomofreno (Mar 3, 2009)

> I actually got the impression from Tess that Sol-1's could do 500/600 amps continuous with just the air cooling depending on ambient...


 I think so, depending of course on what ambient is. I expected that he may have in mind higher continuous current than that (though I hope not on public streets ), and also not sure if the above is possible in something like 100F ambient.


----------



## ElectriCar (Jun 15, 2008)

dtbaker said:


> so, the continuous rating is not changed... just the max burst. I'd consider something like Soliton Jr, or Soliton 1 if you really need something designed for higher continuous power....


The 1 hour rating for the Curtis is 225A stock. Here's data from Cloud Electric site on the controller.

_Peak Current Rating: 500A
2 Min Current Rating: 500A
5 Min Current Rating: 375A
1 Hour Current Rating: 225A
_
So the upgrade results in the 2 minute rating being doubled and the 1 hour rating is boosted 78%, nearly doubled.


----------



## rochesterricer (Jan 5, 2011)

Do you know if that same shop will mod the Curtis 1238 that comes with the AC-50 kits? Assuming the motors could handle the boost of course.


----------



## ElectriCar (Jun 15, 2008)

Re the soliton, I already own this one and the upgrade puts it on par with the Soliton power wise which is all I need, and for only $650 more. So my total for this control with a 1000/400A rating is $2000 total. I don't think you can touch a Sol for that price. 

The Sol is definetly a much higher end controller but I'm not in need of all that it offers. 


I did a little homework on IGBT's (Soliton) and Mosfets (Curtis). Mosfets are a little higher resistance (more heat) at higher amps versus IGBT's but Mosfets have the advantage of higher frequency operation AND they tend to be self limiting current wise. As they heat up the resistance goes up so it could possibly prevent shorting due to overheating, don't really know the statistics though.

Regardless, I could care less what's inside the thing. I just want it to operate cooler than it does now and when I'm on the interstate going up hill, I want to be able to pass if needed. Now I can't necessarily do the passing thing and it's overheating quickly at 160-165V without a finned heatsink.

As it stands now, it's performance is not on par with the 2.8 V6 which was in there and that isn't saying much!


----------



## ElectriCar (Jun 15, 2008)

rochesterricer said:


> Do you know if that same shop will mod the Curtis 1238 that comes with the AC-50 kits? Assuming the motors could handle the boost of course.


You could ask him. His email is domosher at mchsi dot com. Dave is his name. Please post your conversation results for the rest of us as I really want to go AC and get rid of brushes, arcing and add regen.

A DC alternative is the Kostov shunt field motor or sepex they call it. They now have a big shunt wound motor! With this and the right controller you can now have regen!  All their motors are neutral timed with interpoles.


----------



## EVfun (Mar 14, 2010)

ElectriCar said:


> I just want it to operate cooler than it does now and when I'm on the interstate going up hill, I want to be able to pass if needed. Now I can't necessarily do the passing thing and it's overheating quickly at 160-165V without a finned heatsink.


Despite what anyone tells you I highly doubt anything that fits inside a Curtis 1221 or 1231 case will be able to handle 400 amps continuous without a large heat sink and fan at the minimum (short of a contactor - throttle is a bit binary.) Caveat emptor

The Soliton crew have been honest about the fact that the Sol 1 won't handle 1000 amps continuous without water cooling and the Sol Jr won't handle 500 amps continuous without water cooling. Why have that water cooling option if it could?

I want to add that the voltage has next to nothing to do with the heating issues. Amps, especially the motor amps, are the source of the heat.


----------



## JRoque (Mar 9, 2010)

Seems David is (was?) an old school senior tech from Rockwell Collins. That's about as good pedigree as you can have to be qualified to make mods. I'd be mostly curious as to what he does to fake the AC controller brains into thinking it's got a lower voltage, amperage or both. Simple dividers maybe?

See if you can get him to join the forum.

JR


----------



## ElectriCar (Jun 15, 2008)

EVfun said:


> Despite what anyone tells you I highly doubt anything that fits inside a Curtis 1221 or 1231 case will be able to handle 400 amps continuous without a large heat sink and fan at the minimum (short of a contactor - throttle is a bit binary.) Caveat emptor
> 
> The Soliton crew have been honest about the fact that the Sol 1 won't handle 1000 amps continuous without water cooling and the Sol Jr won't handle 500 amps continuous without water cooling. Why have that water cooling option if it could?
> 
> I want to add that the voltage has next to nothing to do with the heating issues. Amps, especially the motor amps, are the source of the heat.


I am installing a large fanned heatsink, more finned surface area than the Soliton which is rated for continuous 1000A with water. This mod in contrast is rated at only 2 minutes at that current. When I do a conversion of a full sized van weighing in at 5500 lbs, I may need 300A continuous on the interstate, certainly not 1000 but I don't need 400A continuous now either. Again I just want more torque when I hit the pedal hard for whatever reason. This motor I've read somewhere can put out about 400 lbs torque with enough amps pushed through it. At 500A I think it's around 110lbs. 

Re the voltage & heating, he said the reason mine is overheating sooner since the upgrade from 144V to 165V is due to the higher voltage forcing more current through the 18 internal 25A, 2V diodes. He's switching them to 15 120A, 1V diodes which will reduce the heat generated by the diodes.


----------



## rochesterricer (Jan 5, 2011)

Thanks, I just emailed David. I will post when he replies.


----------



## rochesterricer (Jan 5, 2011)

rochesterricer said:


> Thanks, I just emailed David. I will post when he replies.


Got a reply from David. Unfortunately, he says he doesn't have any experience with the Curtis AC models and he thinks it would be difficult to increase their output.


----------



## ElectriCar (Jun 15, 2008)

Oh well, didn't hurt to ask. Someone on here, etischer I believe, hacked a small AC inverter and upped the IGBT size to larger ones to power a Siemens motor. Look him up. He had a detailed thread about it I believe.


----------



## rochesterricer (Jan 5, 2011)

Yep, I'm already subscribed to his Passat thread. IIRC, he intends to sell the inverter to the public.


----------



## Dennis (Feb 25, 2008)

EVfun said:


> The voltage is irrelevant to torque, it will apply to the rpms where full torque is available, but torque is a matter of amps with a series wound motor.
> 
> The ADC 9 inch motor and WarP 9 motor (not Impulse 9 motor) that are commonly used will make about 100 ft-lb of torque at 500 amps. With a 144 volt pack that sags to about 126 volts at 500 amps you can expect to make peak torque from 0 rpm to about 3700 rpm. You will have about 71 HP at about 3700 rpm.



I think I explained this only occurs under specific set of conditions way back a few years ago. I suppose I'll say it again.

Your statement would be correct about the torque being constant in a 0 to the cutoff point RPM range if and only if the input device that tells the controller what to change the voltage levels to is held at 100% from dead stop up until the motor's back EMF becomes sufficient such that the controller is not in current limit mode in which case it will be the same shape as it would be for a series wound motor after that point. Basically it's like someone shaved the torque curve. If you just randomly vary the position of the input device that tells the controller to vary voltage level to the motor then you will not have this characteristic.

With no *ACTIVE current limit* the motor being that it is a series type will have a exponential decaying torque curve as the RPM's increase. Please be sure to say this next time because when one refers to electric motor torque curves it is always the natural characteristic, unless the conditions on how it is controlled are mentioned which may effect the natural characteristics.

Btw, with no active current limit and all else being equal, a direct connect set up would win in a race than one that employs active current limit. Unfortunately, we live in the real world were batteries explode, terminals melt, brushes vaporize, plasma fire balls shot out of the commutator/brush side, and gear boxes get wiped out if active motor current limit is not employed. You could use passive current limit using resistors as they did way back in the old days, but it would be very inefficient, cost more, and weigh quite a bit more than active current limit with semiconductors switching on and off rapidly to maintain a current limit set point.


Hey everyone, been a long time since I have been here.


----------



## dtbaker (Jan 5, 2008)

so.... what non-EE people want to know is what we can ACTUALLY get out of a Warp9, and for how long, before thermal limits on motor or controller kick in. With controllers like Soliton, Raptor, or Zilla if they return we can easily allow 1000amps of motor current, and the Warp9 can handle 144v, 156 or probably even a little more.

The question becomes: at 144v/156v, how long can I push 1000amps without melting things, and what torque is developed? This is to evaluate whether the accel off the line is going to be 'enough', and how stout a tranny has to be there.


----------



## ElectriCar (Jun 15, 2008)

dtbaker said:


> so.... what non-EE people want to know is what we can ACTUALLY get out of a Warp9, and for how long, before thermal limits on motor or controller kick in. With controllers like Soliton, Raptor, or Zilla if they return we can easily allow 1000amps of motor current, and the Warp9 can handle 144v, 156 or probably even a little more.
> 
> The question becomes: at 144v/156v, how long can I push 1000amps without melting things, and what torque is developed? This is to evaluate whether the accel off the line is going to be 'enough', and how stout a tranny has to be there.


The Advanced 9" which I run and all Warp motors have class H insulation which is max 180C or 356F. Here's a link about motor insulation classes and temps.

For a point of reference, I drove mine on an interstate trip at about 70F ambient for about 30 miles recently. Current probably averaged 150-175A and I operated the motor around 3000 rpm. When I got home the motor temp measured about 160F which is hot to the touch but not hot for a motor of class H insulation. I checked it because I smelled something, the paint I suppose. 

Many people commented that I should keep the RPM up to cool it better prompting me to check that insulation rating. I don't like driving the motor and transmission at 4000 rpm or such, preferring to save wear and tear on the drive train bearings. Since learning 160F is only about half the rated temp, I'll not be driving it at high rpm anymore. Besides, the torque is better at lower rpm's!

Re 1000A before things melt, I couldn't answer that. Likely the issue there will be the brushes arcing and the commutator melting.

Re torque at 1000A, I read on Cloud Electric's web site that the Advanced 9" can create some serious torque. By extrapolation of the numbers posted on the specs tab, it will produce around 310-330ft lbs, more than enough to break my T5 non world class transmission!

If you're trying to drag race with this motor, I doubt you will overheat it at 1000A unless you continue to race it over and over without sufficient cool down time. I would check the temp after it sits for a few minutes after the first race and compare subsequent races to get a feel for it.


----------



## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

dtbaker said:


> so.... what non-EE people want to know is what we can ACTUALLY get out of a Warp9, and for how long, before thermal limits on motor ... kick in.


Around 20 seconds is how long.


----------



## dtbaker (Jan 5, 2008)

Tesseract said:


> Around 20 seconds is how long.


enough for showing off at the occasional stoplight or passing.... thanks.


----------



## EVfun (Mar 14, 2010)

Dennis said:


> With no ACTIVE current limit the motor being that it is a series type will have a exponential decaying torque curve as the RPM's increase. Please be sure to say this next time because when one refers to electric motor torque curves it is always the natural characteristic, unless the conditions on how it is controlled are mentioned which may effect the natural characteristics.


500 amps is about 100 ft-lb. of torque with an ADC 9 inch motor. I covered the decaying torque curve by specifying the current. The controllers commonly available for on-road EVs all have an active current limit (around 15,000 times a second.) Look at the available motor charts for series wound DC motors. You will notice that even when multiple voltages are shown there is a single line that defines the relationship between amps at torque. Here is the one I use:


----------



## dtbaker (Jan 5, 2008)

EVfun said:


> 500 amps is about 100 ft-lb. of torque with an ADC 9 inch motor.


....but how different would it look with a Warp9 versus the Prestalite, at 144v and 156v, and at 500amps, and then at 1000amps. Thats the curve I'd really like!


----------



## EVfun (Mar 14, 2010)

Different motors do make a different amount of torque at 500 amps (or any other number you want to compare.) I just posted the Prestolite numbers, 500 amps is 83 ft-lb. of torque. The voltage will make no difference in torque, but will effect how high of an rpm you can maintain that 500 amps (and so horsepower.) 

Here is the data for some of the common ADC motors. Netgain doesn't post numbers at 500 amps for most of their motors.


----------



## Dennis (Feb 25, 2008)

EVfun said:


> 500 amps is about 100 ft-lb. of torque with an ADC 9 inch motor. I covered the decaying torque curve by specifying the current. The controllers commonly available for on-road EVs all have an active current limit (around 15,000 times a second.) Look at the available motor charts for series wound DC motors. You will notice that even when multiple voltages are shown there is a single line that defines the relationship between amps at torque. Here is the one I use:



The decaying torque is a characteristic of a series wound motor; specifying a current value will not let someone know this. The only issue was what you said about the 0 to 3700 RPM of flat torque curve without explicitly explaining this only occurs under 100% throttle held down from a dead stop until the motor goes up to your 3700 RPM figure. I am not trying to doubt you on anything else you are saying.

I am also not trying to be anal, but I already have to deal with people who I try until I pull my hair out, to explain the four torque curve types (A, B, C, D) of 3-phase AC induction motors and they tell me, but, but the Tesla Roadster torque curve is flat and it's AC, so you are wrong. I then tried to explain it is controlled with a special type of controller that modifies the AC motor's natural behavior torque curve it would have had if it was connected to a fixed 60 HZ, fixed voltage instead of this controller. You can figure how that went on from there... I guess you cannot teach a brick wall anything... Just have to keep moving on when dealing with people like that.

New members and/or non-members may see your post and fall into the same thinking as those people that have the Tesla Roadster torque curve syndrome as I like to call it. Not trying to hate on you are anything, just that lots of people read posts on these forums and lots of people like to refer to this forum to guide them with their projects.


----------



## EVfun (Mar 14, 2010)

Dennis said:


> The decaying torque is a characteristic of a series wound motor; specifying a current value will not let someone know this.


"The decaying torque is a characteristic of a series wound motor" Yes, in the absence of a controller that maintains a current limit. Very few EVs are built without a motor controller.

"specifying a current value will not let someone know this" I wasn't talking about the basic characteristics of a series wound motor. The amps will set the torque at any voltage. If the motor is seeing 500 amps (FB-1) it will be making around 100 ft-lb. of torque -- period.

Feel free to disagree with me but I'm not going to start including an un-asked-for lesson in series wound motor characteristics with every question about available torque or power. I think you made the answer way more confusing than what was asked because there is a motor controller is almost every on-road EV.


----------



## Dennis (Feb 25, 2008)

> "The decaying torque is a characteristic of a series wound motor" Yes, in the absence of a controller that maintains a current limit. Very few EVs are built without a motor controller.
> 
> "specifying a current value will not let someone know this" I wasn't talking about the basic characteristics of a series wound motor. The amps will set the torque at any voltage. If the motor is seeing 500 amps (FB-1) it will be making around 100 ft-lb. of torque -- period.
> 
> Feel free to disagree with me but I'm not going to start including an un-asked-for lesson in series wound motor characteristics with every question about available torque or power. I think you made the answer way more confusing than what was asked because there is a motor controller is almost every on-road EV.



I am not questioning that the current is what determines the torque output of a DC motor if all other variables are set such as the motor design. I am just saying you are wrong about the same torque at 0 to 3700 RPM because you did not specify the condition at which this occurs. Like if the "throttle" is about 20 % and the motor is spinning at 2300 RPM then most likely is it not producing the "constant torque" you are saying because the current draw will not be at the limit. 

You can put a Fluke Clamp meter on one of the motor cables and see for yourself that if you just arbitrarily move the "throttle" position at different positions then you are not going to see this constant torque at 0 to 3700 RPM. Start your vehicle moving from a dead stop with just 10% throttle input and I will guarantee you that you will not see 500 amps of current draw. It will be less than the current limit.

I am throwing this thread way off topic and so I am not going to post a response back. You do not have to believe me, but that is okay.


----------



## dtbaker (Jan 5, 2008)

I really don't care that much about the theory or general characteristics of a series motor.... want I really want is actual torque curves of a Warp9 using 144v and 156v through a Soliton controller at 300, 500, 700, 1000 amps from 0-5000 rpm. But thats a lot to ask for.  At a minimum, I would love single fixed numbers at zero rpm under these conditions (144v/156v and 300, 500, 700, 1000 amps)


----------



## ElectriCar (Jun 15, 2008)

Any controller at more than 500 amps!


----------



## EVfun (Mar 14, 2010)

Dennis said:


> I am not questioning that the current is what determines the torque output of a DC motor if all other variables are set such as the motor design. I am just saying you are wrong about the same torque at 0 to 3700 RPM because you did not specify the condition at which this occurs.


Looking back:


EVfun said:


> The ADC 9 inch motor and WarP 9 motor (not Impulse 9 motor) that are commonly used will make about 100 ft-lb of torque at 500 amps. With a 144 volt pack that sags to about 126 volts at 500 amps you can expect to make peak torque from 0 rpm to about 3700 rpm. You will have about 71 HP at about 3700 rpm.





Dennis said:


> Start your vehicle moving from a dead stop with just 10% throttle input and I will guarantee you that you will not see 500 amps of current draw. It will be less than the current limit.


Clearly you only make the maximum power at full throttle. I don't think that needs clarification. What else did I fail to specify?


----------



## EVfun (Mar 14, 2010)

dtbaker said:


> I really don't care that much about the theory or general characteristics of a series motor.... want I really want is actual torque curves of a Warp9 using 144v and 156v through a Soliton controller at 300, 500, 700, 1000 amps from 0-5000 rpm. But thats a lot to ask for.  At a minimum, I would love single fixed numbers at zero rpm under these conditions (144v/156v and 300, 500, 700, 1000 amps)


I've never seen ADC 9 inch motor charts over 500 amps and 120 volts. I've never seen any WarP motor charts to even 500 amps. With the FB-1 ADC 9 inch motor there is enough published information to make informed approximation of what to expect. I suggest you start with this torque data and this motor chart. 

Some of the situations you ask about are not possible. For example, even with 156 volts the motor will not accept 1000 amps at 5000 rpm. 1000 amps at 5000 rpm would be about 238 horsepower. 1000 amps would be about 250 ft-lb. or torque based on the torque data. Horsepower is defined as: ft-lb. * rpm / 5252. You would have to apply about 225 volts to the motor to get it to take 1000 amps at 5000 rpm. 

You have to do a bit of math to figure out about what you will get. I don't want to upset Dennis here, but amps will map to torque for a given motor. Nominal pack voltage time amps divided by 1000 will give you approximate horsepower (roughly takes into account pack voltage sag and motor efficiency, you can do better if you know your pack sag and your motor efficiency curves.) So, if you have a 156 volt pack with a 1000 amp current limit you will have about 156 horsepower peak. If you motor is limited to 1000 amps then:

HP = torque * rpm / 5252 

so

HP * 5252 = torque * rpm

the FB-1 makes about 250 ft-lb. or torque at 1000 amps
it will make about 156 HP at 156 volts and 1000 amps

156 * 5252 = 250 * rpm
819312 = 250 * rpm
819312 / 250 = rpm
3277 = rpm

So if your controller has a 1000 amp current limit you can pull a full 1000 amps from a 156 volt pack at around 3300 rpm. You can have the full torque of about 250 ft-lb. from 0 to 3300 rpm. Horsepower is always 0 at 0 rpm (torque times zero, no motion means no work is done.) Horsepower at full throttle will rise from 0 to about 156 between 0 and about 3300 rpm. 

This is the type of math you have to do to approximate conditions outside of the published graphs. The further you leave the available graphs the more approximate the answers become. The fall-back rule is that HP in equals HP out. 746 watts is one horsepower of electricity to the motor. It will be a bit less at the motor shaft because of motor efficiency. The formula for shaft horsepower is above.


----------



## tomofreno (Mar 3, 2009)

> I've never seen ADC 9 inch motor charts over 500 amps and 120 volts.


 What about this one, posted on page 1 of this thread:
http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showpost.php?p=233765&postcount=4
or rotated 90 degree:







The chart you posted a link to seems to agree with it. Calculating the slope of the current curve on the graph and dividing 900A by it, assuming linear increase in torque with current, gives 270 ft-lb compared to 225 ft-lb on the chart. May well be a bit sub-linear in reality I guess.


----------



## Dennis (Feb 25, 2008)

dtbaker said:


> I really don't care that much about the theory or general characteristics of a series motor.... want I really want is actual torque curves of a Warp9 using 144v and 156v through a Soliton controller at 300, 500, 700, 1000 amps from 0-5000 rpm. But thats a lot to ask for.  At a minimum, I would love single fixed numbers at zero rpm under these conditions (144v/156v and 300, 500, 700, 1000 amps)


Hi, Baker, I believe my response to your questions will be on topic so I will respond to you to help you out....I did not look up the warp9, but I do have the torque curve for the FB1-4001 motor and it is 9". 


The FB1-4001 motor curves do not have the current going to 700A or any higher amps so that data I will not try to guess at. We are dealing with a series wound motor here, so torque constants like what you find with motors that have a field stator with magnet field strength that is relative constant like PM motors would, do not work for series wound motors since the field current changes directly with armature current and the motor is probably heading into saturation at these high currents so it will definitely be hard to come up with a good approximation. Someone needs to dyno the motor at those current levels. I can get you up to 600 amps though, from looking at the data curves provided for the FB1-4001.

*The following data are ONLY valid under 100% throttle input held down with NO let off of the throttle input device at all and vehicle is at rest initially and therefore its mass is being accelerated (like getting a flywheel up to speed from 0 RPM as the initial point).*

The .03I term as seen on the FB1-4001 datasheet is used to calculate voltage drop from the current draw, and should be used when doing speed ratio calculations when wanting to know how many RPM's the new voltage will produce for the motor.

*144 v - .03I *

56 Ft*Lbs from 0 to 4300 RPM @ 300 amps current limit (135v)
112 Ft*Lbs from 0 to 3400 RPM @ 500 amps current limit (129v)
140 Ft*Lbs from 0 to 3000 RPM @ 600 amps current limit (126v)

*156v - .03I*

56 Ft*Lbs from 0 to 4682 RPM @ 300 amps current limit (147v/135v)
112 Ft*Lbs from 0 to 3716 RPM @ 500 amps current limit (141v/129v)
140 Ft*Lbs from 0 to 3286 RPM @ 600 amps current limit (138v/126v)

This data will not be exact for the FB1-4001 motor, but close. Motors of the same design will always have some deviation, just like resistors tolerances do as an example. Also temperature effects the above data and how you wire it (wire size, distance, connections, etc..) as well as how good your batteries are at holding a relatively good voltage level at high current draws.

I am confident that this is correct as a far as how good I read the graphs as graphs are hard to get exact data from. You can even ask Major if you think my data is way off. I went by the actual curves for 144 volts and did the voltage speed ratio change using the ACTUAL voltage when using the .03I drop term for going from 144 volts to 156 volts. The actual voltages are in parenthesis.


----------



## ElectriCar (Jun 15, 2008)

Why is it that as the current goes up the % torque created increases. Ie 56 ft lbs at 300A versus 140 at 600A. The data I got from Cloud mentioned a few posts back suggests at 1000A the torque would be 331 if the torque change was linear which it is not. They have a stall rmp torque chart posted that shows at 1770A the torque is 550.

The 331 ft lbs would only be from a dead stop when you have the throttle wide open and would dissipate as the motor rmp increased I assume unless you could maintain 1000A.


----------



## dtbaker (Jan 5, 2008)

Dennis said:


> Hi, Baker, I believe my response to your questions will be on topic so I will respond to you to help you out....I did not look up the warp9, but I do have the torque curve for the FB1-4001 motor and it is 9".


all due respect, but the ADC motors and the Netgains have some significant differences that I think would affect output at the high end of performance. What you have given here is like an extrapolated curve based on a Dodge Charger factory chart to guess how a high-output Mustang might perform.

My point from the very beginning is that I would like to see actual dyno curves with specific equipment (Warp9+Soliton+CALB at 120v, 144v and 156v) at specific amp limits set by the controller to KNOW what torque we have to build for in trannys and gearing.

The second piece that a normal driver wants to know is ACTUAL results of how long it takes for thermal limits to kick in at various levels of output like 300, 500, 700, 1000 amps from some known 'normal' operating temp.

What I am after is knowing the max torque I have to deal with, and how long I can 'over-amp' a system before I have to back off and let things cool off.


----------



## Qer (May 7, 2008)

ElectriCar said:


> Re the soliton, I already own this one and the upgrade puts it on par with the Soliton power wise which is all I need, and for only $650 more. So my total for this control with a 1000/400A rating is $2000 total. I don't think you can touch a Sol for that price.


You make it sound like the only thing that differ between controllers are amps and happily ignore that there's a lot of other differences as well. Like:



Soliton is a microprocessor based controller with a web page for settings where a Curtis is an analogue contraption with 3 unmarked trimmers.
Soliton can run on 12-342 Volt pack voltage where a Curtis is either 72-120 or 96-144 Volt.
Soliton has it's own built in precharge circuits where that's something you have to construct from scratch with a Curtis.
Soliton has the contactor built in where Curtis doesn't.
Soliton already have a more than adequate heat sink where Curtis recommend you mount it on an external heat sink.
Soliton can be water cooled with only an external pump and radiator. Curtis, not so much.
Soliton is dust- and splashproof while if you buy a Curtis (quote from manual) "a cover must be used to deflect dirt and water splash".
Soliton can take more or less any kind of throttle input (including hall effect pedals) where Curtis is hard wired for it's 2-wire potentiometer.
 Not to mention that the Solitons come with warranty, something you can probably forget about if you beef a shoebox controller like the 1231C to 1kA by a third party high power artist.

Yes, the Soliton 1 and Junior are expensive if you only compare Amps/$, but to do a fair comparison you should at least consider the fact that with most (all?) other controllers you have to add a lot of external parts that has to fit in the budget too. For example, when I google around the best price I can find for a new Curtis 1231C is about $1500, then the upgrade you talk about cost $650 which means $2150 total. But then you probably have to add a heat sink, a precharge circuit, a contactor and splash protection too which means some additional bucks on top of that. My guess is that all included you're gonna end up at $2500 or more, unless you scavenger junk piles.

And then there's the other aspect; you have to spend time making it reliable, safe and road worthy. So in the end you've traded time for dollars and ended up with a controller that in many ways is a dead end for future upgrades. You can't change the pack voltage, you can't add new features to your car (for future conversions if you decide to cannibalize your old build for a new one) and you have a controller that can dish out about 150 hp where a Soliton 1 has the potential to reach 400 hp (who knows, with the continuous improvement in battery technology that might actually be quite realistic sooner than we think).

I'm not saying the Curtis is a bad product, but it's age is starting to show. It's an old analogue controller that's very bare bone and when you start to add all those extra bits you need to get it to work it isn't, actually, that cheap anymore.

The Soliton isn't really that expensive even if you're "not in need of all that it offers".


----------



## dtbaker (Jan 5, 2008)

exactly why I have concluded that while a Curtis is a great solution for an economy build, I want to use a Soliton Jr, or maybe a Soliton 1 in my future 'performance build'. Same reasoning applies to ADC motors versus Netgain Warp products as you get closer to high-end performance at high voltage and amps.... worth the extra money probably.


----------



## ElectriCar (Jun 15, 2008)

Qer said:


> You make it sound like the only thing that differ between controllers are amps and happily ignore that there's a lot of other differences as well. Like: ...


You left out a lot of what I said such as this: "*The Sol is definetly a much higher end controller* but I'm not in need of all that it offers."

And the most important comment on that post you omitted *"I just want it to operate cooler than it does now and when I'm on the interstate going up hill, I want to be able to pass if needed. "*

And when I do purchase another controller, barring unforseen circumstances it will be an AC control.


----------



## Qer (May 7, 2008)

ElectriCar said:


> You left out a lot of what I said such as this: "*The Sol is definetly a much higher end controller* but I'm not in need of all that it offers."


And my point is that it isn't. When you start to add things up it really isn't, money wise. If you for example compare the price for the Junior with the price for a 1231C + all the extras you have to add, the price for the Soliton is quite competitive.

It's true that with the Soliton 1 we aimed mainly at performance and reliability but Junior is rather aimed at price and reliability. Neither aren't really "much higher end controller" as you described them, rather they're modern controllers which much more modern design gives them features that simply weren't possible back when Curtis originally developed their DC-controller series and that also are developed with modern battery technology in mind (mainly Lithium) rather than old lead-acid cells.

I can't, of course, stop you from buying a Curtis for your build, but I find it extremely unfair when you ignore even the extra parts that you MUST add even to just get the Curtis running but which is built in into the Solitons. You're not the first or the only one doing it, but it still annoys me and every time I read a similar apple and orange comparison I get this nagging feeling that we've really misjudged the market, that quality actually doesn't pay and that we'd been a lot more successful if we'd made a pure drop in replacement for Curtis or Zilla. Especially those built in contactors seems to have been a pure marketing mistake since very few actually seems to appreciate them.


----------



## dtbaker (Jan 5, 2008)

Qer said:


> ...I get this nagging feeling that we've really misjudged the market, that quality actually doesn't pay and that we'd been a lot more successful if we'd made a pure drop in replacement for Curtis or Zilla. Especially those built in contactors seems to have been a pure marketing mistake since very few actually seems to appreciate them.


I don't think it is/was a mistake.... but rather an under-marketed mistake.  I would venture to say that many are not AWARE that they don't need a separate contactor with the Soliton (and so don't see the cost savings). Another area of education may be better illustration of outputs available from Soliton to avoid separate shunts or hall sensors... I still don't know exactly whats available, and whether I might be able to run directly to some displays without separate sensors (saving hundreds of $ potentially!)

I would suggest some expanded 'feature' documentation and illustrate potential cost savings over non-integrated competitors.


----------



## Dennis (Feb 25, 2008)

dtbaker said:


> all due respect, but the ADC motors and the Netgains have some significant differences that I think would affect output at the high end of performance. What you have given here is like an extrapolated curve based on a Dodge Charger factory chart to guess how a high-output Mustang might perform.
> 
> My point from the very beginning is that I would like to see actual dyno curves with specific equipment (Warp9+Soliton+CALB at 120v, 144v and 156v) at specific amp limits set by the controller to KNOW what torque we have to build for in trannys and gearing.
> 
> ...



Your best bet for actual data is to have your setup dyno'ed by a special kind of dynamometer that can go down to very low RPMs. Your typical automotive dynos do not measure electric motors very well.

For temperature you would have to know the ambient environment temperature and your elevation since less air is available at higher elevations too which would effect how long you could maintain a certain current limit before the windings get close to 356 F (180 c) which is the insulation temperature rating of the windings if it is class H.

Your best bet is to hope this motor has a sense element embedded that changes value under various temperatures like a thermistor which changes resistance with temperature change. If the Soliton1 has an input for motor temp monitoring that can accept different types of sense elements then this would make life much easier because the controller can be set to do current fold back as the motor temps get close to the danger zone. Have it set at 60% of 356 F to kick in for current fold back.


----------



## EVfun (Mar 14, 2010)

Qer said:


> [...] I get this nagging feeling that we've really misjudged the market, that quality actually doesn't pay and that we'd been a lot more successful if we'd made a pure drop in replacement for Curtis or Zilla. Especially those built in contactors seems to have been a pure marketing mistake since very few actually seems to appreciate them.


I think it is a great feature to have the main contactor built into the controller. Precharge becomes completely internal and you can be assured that a suitable contactor has been chosen. That said, I do think it is a marketing mistake. 

Many controllers are sold as upgrades to an existing EV. Since the controllers out there to this point almost all have external main contactors the person upgrading their EV already has the required contactor. For them, the feature doesn't offer a cost benefit. 

The other issue I have is that the feature needs to be *promoted*. I wasn't even aware about it until I started asking about the Jr. I would have been very interested in using a Soliton Jr in my buggy except that I already had a nice Zilla Z1k-HV. A programmable controller (Soliton or Zilla) is a huge improvement over a dumb analog controller.


----------



## drgrieve (Apr 14, 2011)

dtbaker said:


> so.... what non-EE people want to know is what we can ACTUALLY get out of a Warp9, and for how long, before thermal limits on motor or controller kick in. With controllers like Soliton, Raptor, or Zilla if they return we can easily allow 1000amps of motor current, and the Warp9 can handle 144v, 156 or probably even a little more.


Jack Rickard has dynoed a 182 volt nominal pack at 1000 amps using a warp 9. Also a few blog entries back they only got 750 amps through the solition due to a untuned controller, so there is one at 750 amps.

http://jackrickard.blogspot.com/2011/04/graphs-is-always-greener.html

If you hunt through the blog entries you might also find others from before they did the solition 1 upgrade.

This is a chart of first gear. They also did 2nd to 4th gear.


----------



## ElectriCar (Jun 15, 2008)

Qer said:


> I can't, of course, stop you from buying a Curtis for your build...


Oviously you've missed another important point. I ALREADY HAVE this controller and yours DIDN'T EXIST when I purchased mine. Why are you being so damn defensive? It's like you're pissing on my corn flakes because I don't want to buy your controller when you apparently missed the whole point of my original post. 

Slow down brother and understand what someone is saying before you start jumping on them.


----------



## ElectriCar (Jun 15, 2008)

drgrieve said:


> Jack Rickard has dynoed a 182 volt nominal pack at 1000 amps using a warp 9.


 Thanks for the post. That's what I've been wanting to see as well!


----------



## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

ElectriCar said:


> Oviously you've missed another important point. I ALREADY HAVE this controller and yours DIDN'T EXIST when I purchased mine. Why are you being so damn defensive? It's like you're pissing on my corn flakes because I don't want to buy your controller when you apparently missed the whole point of my original post.
> 
> Slow down brother and understand what someone is saying before you start jumping on them.


Well there ya go... Qer isn't trying to sell you a controller, he's just trying to counter your claim that your hopped-up Curtis 1231C will be equivalent to a Soliton1. In case you forgot, here's what you wrote that got him so riled up:



ElectriCar said:


> Re the soliton, I already own this one and *the upgrade puts it on par with the Soliton power wise* which is all I need, and for only $650 more. So my total for this control with a 1000/400A rating is $2000 total. I don't think you can touch a Sol for that price. ...


If all that Curtis had to do to boost the 1231C's power rating was replace the MOSFETs and diodes then why haven't they done that already? I mean, they are making a killing on that controller as it is - it has all of about $200-$300 worth of parts in it right now - but upgrading to more modern components without changing anything else would only cost them maybe $50 more in parts while letting them easily tack on another couple hundred dollars to the retail price (just look at the price difference between the 550A and 650A versions of their 1238). I don't know about you, but turning $50 into $200 sounds pretty good to me.


----------



## Dennis (Feb 25, 2008)

The torque curve of that graph is not correct. Anytime current is constant then torque will be constant. I went through that persons graphs and found this graph:



http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-WV0zVFAY3pg/TaQ1OA5SK_I/AAAAAAAACIk/p8nlABpZW00/s1600/redux4thgear-2.jpg


which is correct for the what the current is showing. I like how this proved my theory from three years ago where I said the torque would be constant when floored 100% throttle until the motor's back EMF is so great that it falls off. Thanks for finding the dyno charts.


----------



## ElectriCar (Jun 15, 2008)

I know what I said and *I didn't say it was altogether equal.* And I was explicit in saying your Soliton was a much better controller. I said it was the same power wise, as in rated at 1000A. And no I didn't make the explicit claim that the rating at 1000A is equal but I did state the upgrade was for 2 minutes. 

Everyone knows your controller is a great device including me. I can't see how you think I said otherwise. You two are making me laugh, seriously. SMH... 

I do have a question though. Is your built in contactor something that is field replaceable if it fails? Have no idea what type contactor you're using or if it's a semiconductor switch but I've blown a few, probably due to not having a precharge. In total I've bought 6 at around $65ea. So Qer can add that to my total cost. And as I said before, yours wasn't available back then.


----------



## drgrieve (Apr 14, 2011)

Not sure why the torque curves are different - but this data is from a real world run - you can watch the video (I use the youtube ones better video control) to see the proof.

Going from 1st gear to 4th gear each higher gear produces a flatter torque curve.

Can anyone explain the result?


----------



## brainzel (Jun 15, 2009)

I am always surprised that there are so many out there who build evelctric vehicles and doesn't know Jack Rickards blog and videos ... no matter whether you like him or not, you shouldn't ignore his publications.


Unfortunately the Junior wasn't born until I startet my conversion, so I took the Curtis way too 
I have to deal with it and if there was a way to get the 1231C updated, I would think about it whether if I would accomplish the rebuild or not.
I don't think that you should/could compare the controllers one by one. They are build to solve different requirements and needs.

At least there are a decade ore two (?) of development between these ... not sure if there was the internet at the Curtis date of birth 

I would love to get a Soliton to test it and update my car, but now I have to deal with the situation and make the best of it.

Back to the thread:
I'd also liked to see charts with different components running at the same tecnical environment.
96V, 120V, 144V, 176V
Soliton Junior, Soliton 1, WarP Drive, Curtis 1231C
Kostov 9", Kostov 11", WarP9", Warp 11", Warp 11" HV
AC 50 @ 96V, 120V
At best, in the same car on the dynamometer.

So if anyone would have too much time and money, go for it! 

If I hade to promote a motor or a controller, I would do this.
Many "converters" would choose the parts they know the specs, towrds the "unknown one" I guess.


----------



## Qer (May 7, 2008)

ElectriCar said:


> I do have a question though.


Answered here to stop cluttering this thread.


----------



## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

brainzel said:


> ...
> I'd also liked to see charts with different components running at the same tecnical environment.
> 96V, 120V, 144V, 176V
> Soliton Junior, Soliton 1, WarP Drive, Curtis 1231C
> ...


Increasing the battery voltage will only result in a higher peak RPM being reached for a given motor current (and therefore a higher peak power level, too). From my informal testing of a WarP-9 on our dyno, it takes about 50V for every 1000 RPM at 1000A (it's not really a linear curve, but close enough for govt work). So torque from the motor supplied by a 96V pack (assuming no sag), would start falling off at around 1900 rpm; with 120V you extend that out to 2400 rpm; at 144V you'll reach 2900 rpm, and, finally, at 176V you'll make it all the way to 3500 rpm (however, a single WarP-9 can't really take 176V and 1000A at the same time).

At a lower motor current level you will, of course, reach a higher RPM before torque falls off, both because you are starting at a lower torque to begin with, but also because it takes less volts per RPM at lower current (less voltage is lost due to internal resistance).

Our dyno tops out at 3500 rpm so I can't really make useful motor curves, no matter how much I might want to. If we replace the hydraulic gear pump with a regeneration system then we should be able to greatly extend the RPM range, both higher and lower - not only are we limited to 3500 rpm because of pump cavitation, we can only stall the motor up to around 200-250A so we can't really test all the way down to 0 RPM, either. 

That said, our dyno is for testing/calibrating controllers, not testing motors, so this is something that is very much a distant second place in priority 

EDIT: these huge pictures are ruining the formatting of the thread - can you guys go back and change them to links, or else save the pic, resize it, and upload it as an attachment?


----------



## brainzel (Jun 15, 2009)

Thank you Jeff.
3500 to 3800 rpm is my personal range of operation (@ 144V) but it only depends on expectations, "it must be ...", the derivation of Jacks curves or the extrapolation of some manufacture sheets.
You think it would be better to operate the WarP9 @ 144v at a lower rpm?

The best combination and source of information so far was Kelly/WarP9 and the 182V/1000A "Soliton 1 / WarP9" chart from Jack.
But unfortunately it doesn't fits my components (except the motor) 

So it's up to someone to do some basic research with the most common variations of components 
Jack would surely have the possibilities (including money) to do this, but not the interest of doing this.

If someone like me would see the benefits of a controller by chart in same enviroment, he would take the "fresh horse" 
You don't have to convince myself, because the Soliton is on my wishlist, but the researcher deep inside would love these charts


----------

