# Electric Triumph GT6 project



## The Toecutter (May 30, 2010)

Attached is a drawing of what I intend the car to look like when it is finished. I have earlier outdated drawings with circuit/battery diagrams, but my design has changed once again.

My motor arrived last month. It is a race modified Prestolite MTC4001. I purchased it for $500 from Bruce Meland.

It came from the following bike:

http://www.nedra.com/photos/100mphclub/kawashocki_640.jpg

Attached are pictures of the motor.

It will take 192V @ 1000A, and 240V @ 400A without arcing. I plan on running it at 216V/500A, with modifications to Paul and Sabrina's open source controller(have not yet purchased). 83 lb-ft of torque, estimated to be completely flat from 0 rpm to 6,000 rpm at 216V, and 64 lb-ft at 7,000 rpm. Such a restriction will save my transmission, differential and chassis from destruction(it does have TR6 bits in it which are supposedly 'bulletproof'), while also allowing a high top speed should drag be sufficiently reduced(140+ mph). 0-60 mph won't be as fast as I had planned with the Netgain 9", but I'll still be able to do 0-60 mph < 8 seconds with AGMs. 175A continuous current is not too shabby for a 105 lb motor, either(that 175A cont is quoted for a stock Prestolite MTC4001).

Does anyone here know anyone with either a Zivan NG3 charger for sale, or an Auburn Scientific PWC600 for sale? If I come across an Auburn Scientific, for say, $1000 or less, it will save me the hassle of assembling, modifying, and testing the controller, and still allow 192V operation with improved acceleration over what 500A would give(especially with 680A available to the motor!). I'm willing to pay up to $700 for a functioning but used Zivan NG3(I've seen them sold before for $500, but came across the ads after they were sold).

I can't wait to finally have the damn thing operational. It's been a loooooong time since I've started.


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

Hi Toecutter

Have you had a look at the Hurricane body kit for the Spitfire/GT6

http://www.caburn.demon.co.uk/Contents/CaburnEngineering/Hurricane/

When I was young the Spitfire was always a bit of a girly car - the Hurricane looked much better

I am interested in the modified Paul and Sabrina controller - I am thinking of the same thing for my car - and would love to be able to use a few more volts

I'm only half way through their thread - how do I increase the voltage?


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## vpoppv (Jul 27, 2009)

Duncan said:


> Hi Toecutter
> 
> Have you had a look at the Hurricane body kit for the Spitfire/GT6
> 
> ...


 You just use different mosfets, diodes, and capacitors. It's on page 232 of the thread. Good for a 180v and 700 amps controller.....

WOW! $500 for that motor! I'm probably the cheapest guy around, but I might just have sprung for a motor like that. That thing can take some serious amps....


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## rillip3 (Jun 19, 2009)

The Toecutter said:


> ...
> 
> 
> It will take 192V @ 1000A, and 240V @ 400A without arcing. I plan on running it at 216V/500A, with modifications to Paul and Sabrina's open source controller(have not yet purchased).


You're aware that these numbers don't add up right? 240v x 400A = 96kw. 216 x 500 = 108kw. I'm not saying you can't do that, just pointing out that your numbers are not the same. You cannot safely assume that your proposed setting will not arc just based on the assumption of 240 @ 400 not arcing.

Good luck with getting the parts you're looking for and best of luck with the project, it looks like it will be pretty cool!


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## The Toecutter (May 30, 2010)

Duncan said:


> Hi Toecutter
> 
> Have you had a look at the Hurricane body kit for the Spitfire/GT6
> 
> ...


I'm not so fond of the hurricane. The open headlamps combined with the huge front grill is not good for aerodynamics; it's probably no better than the original bonnet.

I'm partial to the LeMans style bonnet sold by Jigsaw Racing. I sent them an email asking if it was compatible with a stock bodied GT6. If it is not, I'll probably have to modify my bonnet for the shape, which is something that enthusiasts have done before.



> I am interested in the modified Paul and Sabrina controller - I am thinking of the same thing for my car - and would love to be able to use a few more volts
> 
> I'm only half way through their thread - how do I increase the voltage?


Another poster addressed this comment, but I am intent on changing out the components inside the controller. I'm going to need higher voltage MOSFETs and larger capacitors for certain. There are MOSFETs made to go up to 300V.



rillip3 said:


> You're aware that these numbers don't add up right? 240v x 400A = 96kw. 216 x 500 = 108kw. I'm not saying you can't do that, just pointing out that your numbers are not the same. You cannot safely assume that your proposed setting will not arc just based on the assumption of 240 @ 400 not arcing.


I realize the numbers aren't the same; that being said, Kawashocki has been used at 192V/1000A and 240V/400A. Those were just operating points; the latter figure was not necessarily where peak power was delivered from the motor, as under that setup, at lower voltages it had much higher current. The 1000A was never more than for a few seconds at a time at the drag strip.

I know for a fact that a stock Prestolite MTC4001 can withstand ~1000A at 108V for at least a few seconds, as that is what one has endured in Ryan Bohm's Nissan 280SX(144V pack, sagged to ~108V under 1000A draw). That's 108 kW, which is as much as 216V/500A that I am planning. Further, battery voltage sag is going to reduce the max voltage to the motor to somewhere around 200V.

175A continuous and 450A for 5 minutes are the specs for this motor. At 500A draw, my battery would be depleted within about 3 minutes(and I'd probably be doing ~140 mph after 1 minute of acceleration).

At higher voltages(> 170V), I do believe the risk of arcing increases dramatically, and that the "max kW input" rule of thumb for how much power a motor can handle begins to no longer apply. That being said, my motor is not stock and i know it has been operated at a high voltage without going *zorch*.



> Good luck with getting the parts you're looking for and best of luck with the project, it looks like it will be pretty cool!


I'm intent on doing all the tricks to make it as efficient as possible.

Reverend Gadget's GT6-bodied spitfire only needed ~100 Wh/mile for city driving, and slightly more for a 60 mph cruise! His conversion with 15 Exide Orbitals was at GVWR with 2 occupants and did 30 miles range at 60 mph to 100% DoD(Also note that Rich Rudman measured Exide Orbital XCD30s as delivering each about 280 Wh each at the 1 hr rate, so they'd deliver even less at the 30 min rate). He had a grill block and belly pan, with Kumo LRR tires. Weight was around 1900 lbs. I'll be happy with 120 Wh/mile for the same conditions... but I'm also planning much more radical aerodynamic modifications for mine. His did 0-60 mph < 6 seconds with a 6.7" ADC motor and Zilla 1k controller, set to 1000A.

My conversion will weigh in at under 2,350 lbs, and at least 800 lbs will be in AGM batteries(depends on how much more weight can ultimately be removed from the car to allow even more battery; it may be possible to fit 1000 lbs of battery in it).


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## The Toecutter (May 30, 2010)

I got a chance to see the control board for Paul/Sabrina's DIY 144V/500A controller today. Quite an interesting product. I hope I have no difficulty getting mine to work, after I order one, that is. I now know that the guides available online are most certainly in need of revision, after seeing how misleading/incomplete they are! I think photo shopping the images in the latest revision to make all of the wire colors consistent is in order(the pictures were taken from an assortment of controllers, with different wire colors used, which makes it difficult to determine where everything goes).

The Deka 9A34 batteries are an optimal choice for my conversion; Ben Apollonio tested them at the 2 hour rate and found they deliver a steady 300W for 116 minutes. If I get my EV's consumption down to 100 Wh/mile at 55 mph, 18 of them will give me about 100 miles range at 55 mph to 100% DoD. Whether or not it will be that efficient, we will see; I do know for a fact others have done efficiency similar to that with modified Spitfire and Karmen Ghia conversions, even if they certainly aren't the norm for EV conversions.

Here is my proposed setup(some of the components which were purchased long ago, but the only major component purchased was the motor, and that was recent):

Major components:

Prestolite MTC4001 motor, $500
Home built controller, 216V/500A, < $700
Deka Intimidator 9A34 x18, $2400
Zivan NG3, $700 (hoping to find a used one for this price or less)
Solectria 750 DC-DC, $250
Homemade BMS, $100

Minor components:

Primer, $30
Paint, $100
CV Grease/ Oil, $15
Low Voltage rewiring parts, $45
PB-6 Throttle Box, $45
Degreaser, $15
Battery Voltmeter, $15
Battery Ampmeter, $15
Motor Voltmeter, $15
Motor Ampmeter, $15
Motor Temp Gauge, $15
Paktrakr, $150
Wire Loom, $31
Grinder Pad/Blades, $12
½” Aluminum Plate, $79
¼” Aluminum Plate, $23
3/8” Aluminum Plate, $41
Plexiglass, $11
500A Fuse with Holder, $100
Precharge Resistors, $20
2x Contactors, $300
Circuit Breaker/Shunt, $220
Metal Rack, $15
Bolts, $20
2/0 Cable, $50
Lugs, $10
Electric Connectors, $60
Fuse Block, $60
Propane Torch, $18
Heatsink Silicon, $8
Fan/Heatsink, $30
Battery Boxes, $130
Tiedowns, $10
Floor Pans, $250
Seat Rails, $31
Tie Rod Set, $18

Efficiency modification:

Superlite “Classic” 14x6 wheels x4, $600
Bridgestone B381 185/70R14 x4, $440
RCI Poly Baja Lowback Seats x2, $100
Fiberglass, $100
Aluminum Sheet, $50
LeMans Bonnet, $700 (may do without depending on budget constraints and opt to fabricate my own from the stock bonnet)


My goal is 0-60 mph < 9 seconds with a top speed of at least 120 mph. Simulation suggests 0-60 mph < 8 seconds and a top speed in excess of 130 mph(more than 20 mph added to that with a 5th gear with a 0.8 ratio added). Car should be capable of ~90 mph continuous.


I will go with a much cheaper and much lower voltage setup if I come across a 72V controller for < $300, and sacrifice the performance, but get similar range by using two 72V UB121100 strings in parallel. But once I make any more major purchases, my decisions will be permanent.

Above all else, range, and then low cost are the goal; if some cheap performance can be sneaked in with an open source controller, I will take it.


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## The Toecutter (May 30, 2010)

I just won an ebay bit for a Zivan NG3 for $350 including shipping; it is programmed for LiFePO4 and I will have to send it in for reprogramming, but compared to buying a new one, it is quite a bargain and falls a few hundred dollars below the maximum price I was willing to pay for it!

Now I need to order the parts to build my controller...


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## rillip3 (Jun 19, 2009)

The Toecutter said:


> I just won an ebay bit for a Zivan NG3 for $350 including shipping; it is programmed for LiFePO4 and I will have to send it in for reprogramming, but compared to buying a new one, it is quite a bargain and falls a few hundred dollars below the maximum price I was willing to pay for it!
> 
> Now I need to order the parts to build my controller...


Nice find! Between that and the motor, you have the devil's luck on deals...


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## The Toecutter (May 30, 2010)

Patience trumps luck. At any time, I could have easily put down $800-1000 on an ADC 9", or $250-300 on a 144V quick charge charger, and last year, even a $4,000 kit that included a Rusco charger, ADC 9" motor, Auburn Kodiack, and a bunch of other parts, but I simply decided not to settle for them because they wouldn't give me the specifications I wanted.

I may very well get this car built to the spec I want for under $7000... I intend to use it as a daily driver AND for racing. I had the original design written/drawn up when I was 18, didn't have the chassis until I was 20, and my opportunities to pursue the project always got cut off just before I had a chance to do much. 5 years later, I can't wait to finish putting her together...


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

I can vouch for his patience. I remember Toe talking about his conversion on the PO boards in '06. Glad to see progress continues. Even though you have many components you might apply for the $20K EV parts give away that Jack Rickard is doing: http://jackrickard.blogspot.com/2010/09/20000-evtv-dream-build-giveaway-contest.html


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## The Toecutter (May 30, 2010)

I entered. I know what I'd do should I win. A pack like that could possibly set a world record in an efficient enough chassis...


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## The Toecutter (May 30, 2010)

Zivan NG3 has arrived!


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## RupertWild (Nov 20, 2009)

You're going to BUILD your controller?


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## The Toecutter (May 30, 2010)

RupertWild said:


> You're going to BUILD your controller?


Yes. Thanks to the hard work of Paul Holmes and others, the expense of building a working controller due to repeated component failures(part of the process of designing and testing) is now removed.

Do a search on the open source ReVolt. The design available calls for about $600 in parts if they are all purchased new(including the PCB boards ordered), and is spec'd for 144V/500A peak. It is a simple affair to use the logic board on a controller with a different amount of power or voltage(anything from a 24V electric bicycle to a 288V LiFePO4 conversion and everything in between), as the logic board provides isolation and over current protection, with a user-defined limit between 495A and 800A(I believe it's a single setting that sets a limit for both battery amps and motor amps). The parts can certainly be obtained more cheaply by searching ebay and elsewhere. Snakub, on these forums, lives near me and had a 1600A, 168V controller, built for ~$300 in parts, that had no overcurrent protection of any sort, but he's about to try the ReVolt logic board for his conversion(an additional $150). He could potentially have a working 168V 800A controller for $450.

Vmax and Vmin functions are unfortunately non-existent, much like a Curtis. The difference is that if you choose the right capacitors, diodes, and transistors for your 'power' section of the controller, you can make it to suit higher voltage applications. As long as you limit your nominal battery pack voltage to a reasonable amount based on your motor choice, your motor wouldn't have any problems. I wouldn't use more than a 168V nominal AGM pack on a stock ADC 9" with adjusted brush timing, for example. But it would probably be able to accept 600A at that setting without any problems.

The ReVolt has no rpm limit function. Be sure to have a tach and be sure to stay aware of your motor's operating point while cruising, or you could over-rev it and destroy it.

The ReVolt does not allow shifting between series and parallel using dual motor setups, either, which is something Zillas are renown for.

One area to pay attention to are any air gaps in the casing of your controller. Moisture has been known to get into the controller and short parts of it out. This can be remedied with weather sealing(caulk, ect.), but careful attention to detail will be needed to make it look 'professional'.

The ReVolt is a very crude controller by comparison to the likes of the Zillas or the Soliton1, but it is proving itself. I am aware of one EV using a ReVolt that has so far put 2000 miles on it without any problems. They are relatively new, however, and I am anxious to see how they hold up in the long term, and how they hold up when pushed top their limit(500A for minutes straight careening down a country road at double the legal speed limit). I will explore its limits when I get my EV working. If it blows up, I will let the EV community and designers know, but also it will be known that I am going to put it through some abuse. Most EVs aren't designed to go double the legal speed limit. If it survives this kind of abuse, it will really have proven itself as a viable controller. The logic board is unlikely to fail in such an application, and that is really where Paul's hard work went into, since it can drive a variety of power configurations. I suspect it will hold up just fine.

Otherwise, the trial and error involved in building a controller from scratch would usually mean it's cheaper to buy one, unless you are an exceptionally gifted and/or lucky designer. Replacing current sensors, FETs or IGBTs repeatedly is NOT cheap.


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## The Toecutter (May 30, 2010)

The garage has been cleaned out and progress is now underway.

The conversion is being pursued in the following order:

Remove Engine
Remove Body
Repair Chassis
Repair Floorpan and Seat Rails
Repair Body
Prepare Motor Bay(cleaning/priming/painting)
Fabricate Motor Coupler
Fabricate Adapter Plate
Fabricate Clutch Adapter
Fabricate Motor Spacer Plate
Repair 12V wiring and associated accessories
Install Gauges
Test Motor
Install Pot Box
Fix Tie Rods
Fix Brakes
Fix Parking Brake
Fabricate Battery Boxes
Mount Motor
Mount Controller
Mount DC-DC converter
Mount Charger
Mount Battery Box
Test 12V accessories
Install Batteries
Purchase and install new wheels and tires
Neighborhood Test Drive/Error Correction
Register Vehicle


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## The Toecutter (May 30, 2010)

Engine is out.


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## The Toecutter (May 30, 2010)

Snakub and I have spent yesterday sourcing a sprocket suitable for which to fabricate a coupler for my clutch. I'm hoping to have the car running on a 12V battery for testing purposes very soon.

I heard some good news; I may be getting my former job back November 15th. If that happens, I will once again be a *long* way away from my project again, but I will have the opportunity to save for a LiFePO4 pack and find a used Zilla 1k HV somewhere along the way. This assumes the dollar doesn't collapse between now and then, and it might.

I've also got a prospective buyer for my engine.


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## The Toecutter (May 30, 2010)

A machinist is now using his tools to fabricate that coupler. I won't have the car going before I part with it, but whenever I get 2 weeks vacation time saved up, I'm heading back there to get it running(on 12V), and then will bring it back on a trailer.

At least I'll have money for a good controller without destroying a big chunk of my savings, instead of having to build a ReVolt. The ReVolt is a decent controller, but it is missing a lot of things, and its continuous rating leaves a lot to be desired.

If this job lasts at least a year, a 25+ kWh CALB LiFePO4 pack is in this car's future. That would give hella range... ninety 100AH batteries in series would suit it well with a 400A max draw. Easily 200 miles range at 60 mph...


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Congrats on the employment, hope it allows you to get the lithium you want. I would like to see what kind of range you can get without being weighed down by lead.


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## The Toecutter (May 30, 2010)

I owe this topic an update. Many pieces in the above list had already been taken care of before I posted it. The last time I was able to touch the car, it ran at 48V.

I won't get another chance to mess with it until the middle of this year, and I've been away from it for about half a year already. I miss it. I will be buying the CALB pack when I have a permanent place to work on it.

*edit* pics:


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## The Toecutter (May 30, 2010)

My camera was stolen during a burglary last year and I have not replaced it. The following components are about ready to go in the car sometime this week(this modifies heavily my original proposal):

-Soliton 1 controller
-EV Source 636W DC-DC converter
-Kilovac contactors
-Ferraz Shawmut Fuse
-2/0 cable

The parts arrived May of this year. I didn't get to even see them until this week.

Thanks to the help of a friend with a full shop available, we may possibly have it running on a 72V test pack and road legal this week. Afterwards, it will sit until late next year, when my LiFePO4 pack will be ordered. I will again take some vacation time after the pack has arrived so that I can install it in the car. I'm looking at 30 kWh of CALB 100AH SE cells, or maybe even the CA ones depending on what others' experiences with them are like.

It really sucks being 1200 miles from it for most of the year and having only about 12 days a year to work on it. Were I able to have steady employment where the car is located, it would have been completed years ago. I have more than enough cash for the LiFePO4 now(living in the ghetto and commuting by bicycle everyday on an engineer's pay has its benefit$), so that's at least a plus. Maybe it will have a chrome molly tube frame chassis, a twin Netgain 9" motor setup, and a Ford 9" rear end geared for 150+ mph in its not too distant future. The Soliton 1 at 1000A could easily snap the car's stock chassis in half with that single Prestolite motor, so using the Soliton 1 to its full potential right now would be fun, but foolish!

Currently, the little Prestolite will serve it well and is a good match for its transmission. 140 mph(or more) will be possible, with 0-60 mph < 8 seconds with a 216V/500A motor limit and 350A battery limit. She will weigh in at less than 2,000 lbs and have a CdA of under 4.5 sq ft. *drool*

200+ miles range at 60 mph is possible on paper. We shall see sometime later, however long that happens to be.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Hey Toe, glad you're still plugging away at it. I'd say no question on getting the CA cells over the SE's, not sure if they will even be making the SE's in the future.


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## The Toecutter (May 30, 2010)

The most frustrating part about the entire conversion is that when I have had employment and money, I have not had the workspace to work on it, and when I had workspace as a kid, I didn't have the money. Would the circumstances have been right, I'd have had this thing on the road in 2008. My current living arrangements are such that I don't even use a car for anything but long distance driving outside the range of the best PbA conversions(150+ mile trips only). A lot has been done so far on my current vacation. I'm currently trying to source some new slave cylinders for the rear drum brakes though; the ones that previously worked on that car have locked up over the years from rust.


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## onegreenev (May 18, 2012)

Duncan said:


> Hi Toecutter
> 
> Have you had a look at the Hurricane body kit for the Spitfire/GT6
> 
> ...



I like that Hurricane Body Kit for the Spitfire. Got plenty of Spitfires out here that could be outfitted with one of those cool looking bodies. Fiberglass is awesome. What are the chances of getting one here in the States? Would be a great glider for converting to electric.


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## The Toecutter (May 30, 2010)

Here's a picture of the car from roughly 2 months ago:










I should probably get around to updating its EV album page as well; it hasn't changed since 2005 when work started on it in bits and pieces. The wood holding the controller, contactors, DC-DC converter, and liquid cooling system in place is temporary. If it weren't for the help of a friend, this car would not be this close to completion. The battery boxes still need to be made though, which I will draw up a design when I decide what pack I ultimately want to use.

Thinking of a smaller pack of ~14.2 kWh, much smaller than the originally planned 30 kWh CALB SE one given the power produced by the new CA cells is much higher, as that would allow a better 0-60 time from 300 lbs weight reduction. I wouldn't mind 0-60 mph ~6 seconds, 0-120 mph ~24 seconds! Even with a wimpy little Prestolite limited to 192Vmax, 700Amax, 120 kW(so peak torque from 700A ends at roughly 170V), this would be possible. Even faster is possible, for that matter, although the single motor would be the greatest limiting factor. That Soliton 1 is a bit too much for it, but I do want a beefy rear end and twin motor setup with a larger pack someday, so I went with a 1 when the Jr came close to maxing out that little motor.

The pack will be put in sometime next year, whatever it is, even if I only get a 60V one to put around in should I become indecisive on either of the larger packs.


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## The Toecutter (May 30, 2010)

I stopped by the EVTV workshop last month to pick up some CALB LiFePO4 cells. Jack Rickard only had 20 in stock, so I picked up 15 for a 48V pack. I plan on having all 94 of them sometime late this year or early next year. I also purchased a Brusa charger, because the Zivan NG3 I had bought earlier is likely to be a battery killer, and I like the idea of a reprogrammable charger that can always have the pack voltage adjusted by me, instead of having to repeatedly send it in. 

I got to drive Jack's electric Porsche 550 Spyder. I have never driven a conversion that was as fast as this on a meager 120V; compared to Tom Whitman's Saturn SC2 running on a 120V pack of US Battery 8VGC floodies, the Spyder is a rocket. While I didn't time the 0-60 mph acceleration of the 550, it felt like it did 0-60 in around 12-13 seconds, which for a 120V conversion weighing in at around 1900 lbs, is pretty damned good. I took it to 80 mph before the passenger got scared; I was intent on topping it out to see if it lived up to Jack Rickard's claimed top speed of 120 mph. I didn't thrash it through the corners as I had planned to when I was told I would get a chance to drive it, since the pedals felt very weird and were nothing at all similar to any other car I had driven; I would have needed to drive it for a few hours first before I felt that comfortable, as I had no desire to wreck this beautiful car. Maybe next time I go over there I will feel confident enough to play with it, if given the chance again. I was impressed with the choice of vehicle far more than I was with the batteries or the AC drive; the flooded lead acid conversions I have driven are very overweight and sluggish by contrast, but they weren't 550 Spyder replicas. Aside from my own, I had yet to drive a conversion weighing under 3000 lbs, before I drove this Spyder. 

While I like the AC drive that is in that Spyder, I ran some simulations for the GT6 using the AC75 with a Curtis inverter at 144V; the 0-60 time was in the 9 second range, which is not what I am looking for with that kind of cost(especially given that I have already invested in the Soliton; had I not purchased it yet, I would be seriously considering that drive). 

I think I'll stick with the Soliton 1; with that, I could later upgrade to dual WarP 9s, and run 12s in the 1/4 mile while removing the transmission. Twin WarP 9s each at 192Vmax would allow around 70 continuous horsepower anyway, which would allow the aeromodded car to do 130+ mph indefinitely without overheating(more realistically, ~140 or so, as I must account for the limited 30 kWh storage of the pack, which limits the duration of time that the car can run at max speed, and thus when the time comes I must consider rear end selection accordingly). The single Prestolite at even 170V(let alone 216V) would exceed the performance of the AC75 anyhow assuming the tranny is retained, although, I have yet to simulate the AC75 at 170V, which would change the comparison dramatically, as the AC75 and the Curtis inverter combo definitely gives me a much broader torque curve per volt added than the Prestolite and Soliton 1. It's just that the Soliton 1 can go to 340V and the modified Prestolite can go to 192V or more.


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## onegreenev (May 18, 2012)

The Toecutter,

Nice car ain't it! I too got to drive the Spyder and Duh. Both were excellent and quite powerful with the AC motor and 120 volts. I like the Spyder a lot. But since buying one is out of my price range I settled for picking up a Porsche 914 and am planning on stuffing in an AC-75. I also thought about putting in two AC-50's using Rebirthautos dual motor adaptor for the VW. It will work for the 914 if I am not mistaken. It will give the same results as doing a dual motor like the new AC-35-2 setup yet allowing to use it in a vehicle that can't accommodate the long motors. Since the AC-50 has the same bolt pattern as the Warp9 it would be killer. I am considering that setup because I can get that cheaper and HPEVS will update my controllers to the new so I can use the new meter for configuring the the controllers. 


Can't wait to see yours on the road. 

Pete


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## The Toecutter (May 30, 2010)

Here's some pictures from late 2013. I haven't had much opportunity to work on it since.




























More batteries have since been purchased. I have enough for 192V 100AH for when I finally get the chance to drive it around for a bit. The car has no problem peeling out, but hasn't been taken to more than 30 mph yet.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Damn Toe, really stretching this build out. At this rate lithium is going to be an outdated cell chemistry


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## The Toecutter (May 30, 2010)

I didn't have much choice in that matter. I get 3 weeks of vacation/sick time/PTO a year. I spent about half of the time allotted working on the car, the other half seeing my family. I've thought of quitting my job just to get to work on it for a nice chunk of time, but those are kind of hard to come by these days and I have bills to pay.

My batteries are already outdated. The CALB CAM cells are 40% more dense than the CA cells with regard to energy storage per unit of volume, allowing a very large pack to be placed into a small car. The CA cells seem to be a "decade" battery, and I won't be needing to change them considering they've yet to even see a full cycle.

With the CAM cells, I could theoretically fit a 60 kWh pack in this car, if I didn't mind lugging around 1,100 lbs of batteries in it. The Triumph would weigh a few hundred pounds over GVWR and would need modifications to accommodate that, but it would still be around 2,600 lbs or so. 500 miles highway range could be in grasp.

The CAM cells are far from the best item for my application, but they are obtainable and "affordable"(< $500/kWh).

But I don't even need them, or a 500 mile range, or can justify the expense of changing over.

A 400 mile range could be done without being over GVWR, with the CAM cells.

This 19.2 kWh pack I have is plenty, for now. 150 miles range should be reachable, but I need to get it legal before I can try that. With a 6C discharge rate accounting for voltage sag, it's good for 100+ kW without harming it. Dual WarP 9" motors with a Soliton 1, series/parallel shifting, even with only 100 kW to the controller from the pack, with 1000A at the motors in series, would still allow 0-60 mph in under 5 seconds... That's the magic of close to 500 lb-ft of torque in a sub 2000 lb car.

With the single tiny Prestolite limited to 170V/680A, 0-60 mph using the manual transmission should be good for under 8 seconds. This will not be the car's final configuration, but will certainly be my introduction to driving it.

A 30 kWh pack of CA100FI cells would be ridiculous. Set the peak draw at 10C, and roughly 230 kW is available to the motors, and now I could have something with a similar power to weight ratio as a Tesla Roadster. Who cares if it's an "outdated" chemistry! 

The CAM cells don't seem to be as robust as the CA cells when it comes to high discharge rates, but either chemistry provides "enough" power in a light enough car. The CAM cells allow great range though, and with the right design, you can potentially match the range of a diesel automobile with your EV...

Imagine Dave Cloud's "Dolphin" with 1,900 lbs of CAM cells in it(roughly the same weight of lead that was in the car for 200 miles range). 800+ miles range is theoretically possible. Going from Dallas, TX, to St. Louis, MO, on one battery charge, to me would be a more impressive feat, than doing the 1/4 mile in 9 seconds, simply due to the utility this kind of range allows for an EV. It's much more practical, than raw speed. 

Speed is very fun though...


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## BWA (Mar 14, 2015)

The real magic of 500 ft/lb of torque would be in keeping the gearbox and or differential from almost instantly self destructing.

Those two items, are pretty marginal even with the 108 ft/lbs from the standard ICE power plant. 

Nice conversion though. Hope to get working on mine soon-ish.....


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## Hollie Maea (Dec 9, 2009)

The Toecutter said:


> My batteries are already outdated. The CALB CAM cells are 40% more dense than the CA cells with regard to energy storage per unit of volume, allowing a very large pack to be placed into a small car. The CA cells seem to be a "decade" battery, and I won't be needing to change them considering they've yet to even see a full cycle.
> 
> With the CAM cells, I could theoretically fit a 60 kWh pack in this car, if I didn't mind lugging around 1,100 lbs of batteries in it. The Triumph would weigh a few hundred pounds over GVWR and would need modifications to accommodate that, but it would still be around 2,600 lbs or so. 500 miles highway range could be in grasp.
> 
> ...


Is there a market for premium cells with a high energy density (significantly higher than CAM cells)? Or is everyone kind of just going with junkyard salvage at this point.

Asking for a friend...


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

At what price?


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## The Toecutter (May 30, 2010)

BWA said:


> The real magic of 500 ft/lb of torque would be in keeping the gearbox and or differential from almost instantly self destructing.
> 
> Those two items, are pretty marginal even with the 108 ft/lbs from the standard ICE power plant.


All correct. It is currently programmed for the Soliton to limit the motor current to 680A, which theoretically is 119 ft-lb according to the Prestolite MTC4001 curve available(what the GT6 car made stock).

I have a TR6 differential, however. That unit is considerably more stout, is a bolt-in fit within the space of the stock GT6 unit, and my reasoning is that if the TR6 differential can handle the 164 lb-ft from the TR6 engine multiplied by the 3.14 ratio of 1st gear in a TR6 transmission(514 lb-ft), than it can certainly handle the 340 lb-ft produced by twin WarP 7" motors at 1,000A, and maybe periodically if not confidently handle the 500 lb-ft of torque produced with twin WarP 9"s at 1,000A.

If I went twin WarP 9"s though, I'd probably swap out for a Ford 9" rear end with a Detroit locker. The TR6 unit would be stretched to its absolute limit and may not last long with such abuse.

Twin WarP 7" motors would have me running high 12s or low 13s. Twin WarP 9s would put me into the high 11s, low 12s. Both cases assume I get enough traction, which won't happen with LRR tires(although mid 13s are solidly doable, with LRR tires, in either case).



Hollie Maea said:


> Is there a market for premium cells with a high energy density (significantly higher than CAM cells)? Or is everyone kind of just going with junkyard salvage at this point.
> 
> Asking for a friend...


There's a market for such a thing, if you know the right people. I don't know the right people that well. There are EV-suitable batteries that can do 200 Wh/kg or more that some have been able to obtain. Check out John Wayland's Slipstream project.

Junkyard salvage is certainly of a much more favorable $/kWh ratio than all other DIY EV battery solutions, but the peak power per unit weight, calendar life, and cycle life of the OEM cells is inferior to the CALB CA series LiFePO4(exception being the Tesla packs, which have much higher power per pound than most offerings, but even more dramatically lag behind the CALBs in cycle life/longevity than the packs from Nissan, Renault, Mitsubishi, Chevrolet, ect).

Per mile, junkyard salvage is in-arguably cheaper as long as the pack isn't a dud. I'm glad the idea is getting popular.

A Nissan Leaf pack and motor/inverter in my GT6 coupled to a transmission is theoretically 200+ miles range at 60 mph, 0-60 mph in under 6 seconds, and a top speed of 160+ mph(I wouldn't try that on a whim).

Of course, the drive system from the Tesla and a powerful enough battery to max out its potential is what I would REALLY want... My finished conversion, even if I went all out and put a 300+ hp capable CALB pack in it, would weigh a full 500 lbs or more less than and have half the aerodynamic drag of a Tesla Roadster... but with all of the power!

It would therefore go faster, than a Tesla Roadster, as long as I got traction and nothing broke!


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## Hollie Maea (Dec 9, 2009)

JRP3 said:


> At what price?


VERY early in brainstorming stage, but probably about $450 for a cell that would be 7.2V and either 100Ah of high power cells or 115Ah of energy cells. I know that's even a little higher than CAMs, but it would be a pretty high end product. I should probably start a separate thread to gauge interest if I want to pursue it farther. I would probably need to sell 100 of them to hit my target price.


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## Hollie Maea (Dec 9, 2009)

The Toecutter said:


> Of course, the drive system from the Tesla and a powerful enough battery to max out its potential is what I would REALLY want... My finished conversion, even if I went all out and put a 300+ hp capable CALB pack in it, would weigh a full 500 lbs or more less than and have half the aerodynamic drag of a Tesla Roadster... but with all of the power!


That would be easily doable...48 cells would weigh about 400 pounds, give you 360V nominal, easily 1000A peak in a 34kWh pack...


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## The Toecutter (May 30, 2010)

Hollie Maea said:


> That would be easily doable...48 cells would weigh about 400 pounds, give you 360V nominal, easily 1000A peak in a 34kWh pack...


If you're talking about CALBs(which don't come in 7.2V, but 3.2V), then you neglected voltage sag. 280-290V would be about all you could get to the motor(s) with a 360V(actually, 358.4Vnom) CALB pack, accounting for sag. That's comparable to a Tesla Roadster, and could come close to maxing out the Roadster's drive train.

However, a battery with less voltage sag would absolutely max out the Roadster's drivetrain, giving you an extra 20-30 kW to play with over the CALBs.

If you're referring to some less-mundane battery than the CALB, I want to hear more about it, even though I won't be in the market for it anytime soon, if ever.


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## Hollie Maea (Dec 9, 2009)

The Toecutter said:


> If you're talking about CALBs(which don't come in 7.2V, but 3.2V), then you neglected voltage sag. 280-290V would be about all you could get to the motor(s) with a 360V(actually, 358.4Vnom) CALB pack, accounting for sag. That's comparable to a Tesla Roadster, and could come close to maxing out the Roadster's drive train.
> 
> However, a battery with less voltage sag would absolutely max out the Roadster's drivetrain, giving you an extra 20-30 kW to play with over the CALBs.
> 
> If you're referring to some less-mundane battery than the CALB, I want to hear more about it, even though I won't be in the market for it anytime soon, if ever.


Sorry, I wasn't quite clear. The size would be the same as a CALB 100, but an entirely different battery--each "cell" would be 2S Nickel Cobalt Aluminum, hence the 7.2V

I don't want to threadjack you, so I'll probably start a separate thread to gauge interest.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

The Toecutter said:


> There are EV-suitable batteries that can do 200 Wh/kg or more that some have been able to obtain.


Tesla/Panasonic NCA is around 250Wh/kg at the cell level.



> *cycle life* of the OEM cells is inferior to the CALB CA series LiFePO4(*exception being the Tesla packs*, which have much higher power per pound than most offerings, but even more dramatically lag behind the CALBs in cycle life/longevity than the packs from Nissan, Renault, Mitsubishi, Chevrolet, ect).


This statement seems to contradict itself. First you say OEM cell cycle life is inferior to LiFePO4, except for Tesla, then you say Tesla has worse cycle life than any of them. In fact Tesla/Panasonic NCA seems to have very good cycle life, certainly better than Nissan.


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## The Toecutter (May 30, 2010)

JRP3 said:


> Tesla/Panasonic NCA is around 250Wh/kg at the cell level.


Yup. But I don't know where to buy them "new", just salvage. I'm pretty sure Tesla sells them to Model S and Roadster owners though.



> This statement seems to contradict itself. First you say OEM cell cycle life is inferior to LiFePO4, except for Tesla, then you say Tesla has worse cycle life than any of them. In fact Tesla/Panasonic NCA seems to have very good cycle life, certainly better than Nissan.


I said:

"...*the peak power per unit weight, calendar life, and cycle life* of the OEM cells is inferior to the CALB CA series LiFePO4(exception being the Tesla packs, which have much higher power per pound than most offerings, but even more dramatically lag behind the CALBs in cycle life/longevity than the packs from Nissan, Renault, Mitsubishi, Chevrolet, ect)."

I should have been a bit more clear, but I was both sleep-deprived and intoxicated on a myriad of substances when I had typed that.

The Tesla packs have some great energy density per unit weight. Nothing I can readily buy "new" for EV applications comes close, although even some salvage Tesla packs towards the end of their life should still well exceed 200 Wh/kg at the cell level.

The batteries in the Roadster and Model S only have a 500 cycle to 100% discharge life though, and are said to have 5-10 years shelf life before 20% capacity loss occurs. In the Roadster, they were warranteed to 5 years, 100,000 miles, IIRC.

The CALB CAs can do 2,000+ cycles to 100% depth of discharge, and ultimate calendar life is unknown, but certainly 5+ years life with 0% capacity loss and next to no self discharge if Jack Rickard's and others' testing is to be believed.

Unlike the Tesla packs, the LiFePO4 chemistry of the CALB CAs needs no BMS or thermal cooling system when run to the manufacturer's specification of 3C cont, 10C pulse. A BMS may actually dramatically shorten the CALB's life!

I wouldn't dare try to charge and discharge the Tesla packs without the manufacturer's electronics and thermal management...


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## Hollie Maea (Dec 9, 2009)

Big difference between the Roadster batteries and the Model S batteries. Roadster batteries were Cobalt Oxide, which is very volatile and has very poor cycle life. The NCA cells that the Model S uses are vastly improved. They aren't quite as safe as LiFePO4, but they are close. And if you stay away from the SOC edges, they will last for ages. Again, not quite like LiFePO4, but close.

I wouldn't use them without BMS (I wouldn't use anything without BMS) but it's not the death sentence that it is with Cobalt Oxide.


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## The Toecutter (May 30, 2010)

Didn't know that they did that for the Model S. It makes sense that they would though, as the lithium cobalt oxide cells can be very temperamental.

I'm going to be working on my GT6 again in 2 more days and we will once again get to spend some quality time together. Maybe I'll get a chance to do some testing, but that will be quite difficult without a valid drivers license(long story).


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## Moltenmetal (Mar 20, 2014)

To clarify: I think you meant to say that a BMS with a top balance shunt charging circuit may shorten the life of CALB cells- I agree with you on that in relation to any Li-ion cell, based on my admittedly limited knowledge of the cell chemistry, and I do not shunt charge my Sinopoly cells for that reason. There's no way I'm aware of that having nothing more than a LVC and HVC alarm trip on each cell could harm the cells, other than during a very, very long storage event between charges so that the parasitic losses from the BMS alarm trips actually drains cells below LVC.


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## The Toecutter (May 30, 2010)

I got to drive it today. It will need a bit of work before its legal, but it's getting closer.



Moltenmetal said:


> To clarify: I think you meant to say that a BMS with a top balance shunt charging circuit may shorten the life of CALB cells-


That is what I meant.



> I agree with you on that in relation to any Li-ion cell, based on my admittedly limited knowledge of the cell chemistry, and I do not shunt charge my Sinopoly cells for that reason. There's no way I'm aware of that having nothing more than a LVC and HVC alarm trip on each cell could harm the cells, other than during a very, very long storage event between charges so that the parasitic losses from the BMS alarm trips actually drains cells below LVC.


My LVC is set by the motor controller already.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

The Toecutter said:


> I got to drive it today.


Nice, it's been a long journey.


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## The Toecutter (May 30, 2010)

I am trying to get my Brusa NLG513 charger to connect to my computer. I won't get around to balancing all of my cells before I leave in a few days, but I might just get the charger ready for my 192V pack.

This car's acceleration is scary, and can easily go sideways when I step on it. I don't want to abuse it too much though, as my batteries are not balanced and do not have a full charge. The good news is that there was no measurable voltage drop on any of the cells in the months that the car say. None. Not even 1/1000th of a volt.

I will be coming back to work on it again in December. 

Once I am back in Texas, I will resume progress on that home-built electric-assist recumbent velomobile.

http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showthread.php/prototype-anarchotrike-156665.html


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## The Toecutter (May 30, 2010)

I got a 1-week extension of my vacation.

The BRUSA now works. I didn't know how the AMPSEAL connector worked and didn't have the pins inserted properly. My computer was communicating with unconnected wires.

Since Jack Rickard showed me how it worked and put the connector together properly for me, I was able to get the charger programmed from his old Toshiba labtop. I felt rather stupid for not realizing that there was no data transfer going on at all at my home PC, the way I had configured the connector, but at least the problem is now solved.

I bought an extra 5 batteries as well. This will give me a 208V 100AH pack. Tomorrow I will start the tedious process of bottom-balancing all of the cells with the Powerlab 8 I had purchased, then giving them their first full charge with the BRUSA when they are ready.

The Soliton is soon going to be re-programmed for the following:

Max Battery Current: 600A
Max Motor Current: 680A
Max Motor voltage: 180V
Max Power: 100 kW
Current Ramp Function: 680A/sec

Theoretically, with the extra voltage, a top speed of ~150 mph once my aeromods are installed and I put some 14" rims and larger diameter Z-rated LRR tires to make the overall drive ratios taller.

In practice, it has not exceeded maybe 40 mph yet, and probably won't anytime soon.

It smokes its tires quite effortlessly from a stop, even without the full 1000A used.


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## Moltenmetal (Mar 20, 2014)

Seriously- when do we get a look at this car?!!? Borrow a camera!


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## The Toecutter (May 30, 2010)

I went to St. Louis a month ago, but didn't get as much done as I had hoped. I wanted to get a paint job done, but didn't get that far.

Here's some pics from a month ago:


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## The Toecutter (May 30, 2010)

These pics are two years old and I've been meaning to post them here but kept getting distracted by other priorities. Anyhow, here are some pics of it primed up:






















I'm currently back home and looking for employment again so that I have money to finish it.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Hello zombie thread


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## The Toecutter (May 30, 2010)

JRP3 said:


> Hello zombie thread



No matter all the crap life throws at me that gets in the way, I won't give up on this project. Had someone handed me a pile of money when I was in high school, the possibility exists that I could have made a conversion with range as good or better than the OEMs.


I first drew schematics for this conversion when I was 17 years old and it was initially intended to use AGMs...


I'm now twice as old, but at least it's about 80% complete now...


If I ever find a well paying job again, a Tesla drivetrain/cells could be in this car's medium to long term future.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Always admired your persistence. Tesla components would be awesome, once a few hundred thousand Model 3's are on the road parts should get pretty cheap.


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## The Toecutter (May 30, 2010)

JRP3 said:


> Always admired your persistence. Tesla components would be awesome, once a few hundred thousand Model 3's are on the road parts should get pretty cheap.



With what Tesla has, I think a base level Model 3 drive system and battery could be fit in that would allow a sub 2000 lb vehicle weight. So, theoretically 300+ miles range at 60 mph and 0-60 mph in under 4 seconds with a top speed exceeding 200 mph(not that I'd want to try it without some serious and expensive modifications that would be needed to do it safely) and requiring no transmission.


No plans for that at the moment though. I still need to finish it as it is, and be very careful where I operate it because I have no license.


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