# Car starter for power of electric bike. It's work?



## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

Hi Oswaldo

The problem is the bearings - most starter motors have plain bearings and a bearing life measured in hours

If you can find a starter motor with ball bearings (some do) then that would at least have a chance of working


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## feloni (Nov 17, 2015)

That's what I intend to do.
Adapt two bearings at the ends of starter and remove the solenoid and the muzzle and bendix.
I found this link in a Forum: http://homepages.which.net/~paul.hills/Motors/Starters/StartersBody.html
There is explained how to modify the starter and how you can adapt a PWM circuit to make it accelerate slowly, as an accelerator. I think it may not yet know.
The starter I have here is very similar to the link of the page, which is an engine of GM 4-cylinder model, manufactured here (Model J).

Thank you for your attention and if you or other members of the Forum can give an opinion about this my case, it may be feasible for everyone, whether work.

Thanks.

OF


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## bigmotherwhale (Apr 15, 2011)

you would be better off with an alternator, i have an alternator with water cooling very thin laminations and has strong permanent magnets as well as a coil on the rotor which was a lucky find as i have seen none to date like this and i bet you haven't either. 

Im pairing it with a Honda IMA inverter controlled by a lebowski chip, i will let you know how well it works when i have tested it.


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

Better off with something like this.
Cheaper and no need to do massive modifications.
My bicycle didn't have a controller, just a switch. Cheap but hard to ride. You had to get up to speed before switching.

http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showthread.php?p=289471#post289471

http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/36V450W-...hash=item1ea10d832b:m:mJ-edW6fWHuVvW3fI7Jckqg


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## bigmotherwhale (Apr 15, 2011)

i used those cheap dc motors before, i had two of them and they were pathetic, no cooling of the motor either, they seem to overheat even at the modest power they provide, better off with a starter motor i reckon.

a good alternator should do several KW on the right controller. you could add halls and it would work with a cheap E bike controller or large RC ESC.


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## dcb (Dec 5, 2009)

no offense intended here, but I suspect the starter is being considered because of price/availability. And since it just needs a switch to control it. An alternator controller is going to have a very hard time competing on the price/simplicity of a series motor.

I've heard rumors of a rewound starter motor being used on a bike to good effect, nothing more than that though. It's just a ~2hp 12v series motor, though it is too small for continuous 2hp without real cooling. Might even rewind the solenoid and use a pushbutton throttle, but definitely want to check for roller bearings.

a few vids:
https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=starter+motor+bike

here is a liquid cooled one, with a flexplate fixed to the wheel 
https://www.youtube.com/user/sawracer/videos

anyway, lt's work.


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

> no cooling of the motor either,


 So cool it, drilling holes isn't rocket science.
Bambalam, as long as you have your mate to push start you...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jrqnMQ9rPGo


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## bigmotherwhale (Apr 15, 2011)

you can always use a hobby esc and a current limiter, it will be just as cheap as a starter and controller and much much better, you would be hard pressed to make a DC motor controller for the same money. 

There is a guy on es that uses an alternator and hobby esc and it works very well by the looks of it.


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## feloni (Nov 17, 2015)

bigmotherwhale said:


> you would be better off with an alternator, i have an alternator with water cooling very thin laminations and has strong permanent magnets as well as a coil on the rotor which was a lucky find as i have seen none to date like this and i bet you haven't either.
> 
> Im pairing it with a Honda IMA inverter controlled by a lebowski chip, i will let you know how well it works when i have tested it.


Dear BIGMOTHERWHALE,

Your project with alternator needs inverter, cooling water. neodimio permanent magnets............
Its your design is very sophisticated, mine will have to be much simpler.
Thank's for your attention.


Curiosity: Because Big Mother Whale in your nick?


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## bigmotherwhale (Apr 15, 2011)

feloni said:


> Dear BIGMOTHERWHALE,
> 
> Your project with alternator needs inverter, cooling water. neodimio permanent magnets............
> Its your design is very sophisticated, mine will have to be much simpler.
> ...


All you need is a hobby esc or a e bike controller which are both around £30 ish an alternator and a battery, it wont cost you anymore than a starter motor and a dc motor controller and they are easily sourced.

running a starter requires heavy cables because you run low voltage high current, whereas you can run 6 - 12 s lipo on an alternator and is much easier to work with. Also an alternator is designed to be run at very high rpm and it is equipped with bearings for continuous use, and not to mention a fan and or watercooling to keep everything cold.


the alternator i have is a water cooled 190amp Hitachi with neo magnet hybrid rotor, it work with or without field current applied. The laminations are less than a mm thick. have a look at this: http://s936.photobucket.com/user/bigmotherwhale/library/alternator



oh ripperton i was not surprised you had to drill holes in your motor, there is certainly enough resistance in those cheap brushes and winding's to produce quite a bit of heat! was there any fan to move the heat out of the motor?

BMW


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## feloni (Nov 17, 2015)

RIPPERTON said:


> Better off with something like this.
> Cheaper and no need to do massive modifications.
> My bicycle didn't have a controller, just a switch. Cheap but hard to ride. You had to get up to speed before switching.
> 
> ...


RIPPERTON,

What am I doing on the bike is something like your idea of first photo.
Central motor connected to the chain crown by a ratchet freewheel on the motor shaft to rotate freely and I can pedaling.
See this video of TUBE: 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d9brryyFeBQ 
(There are two videos of Hutch in your channel).

My biggest problem is finding an electric motor that is powerful enough to drive the bike and my humble self uphill.
Here it is (the "big garbage" of Brazil) impossible to buy an electric engine 750Watts for a reasonable price.
It would be something close to a USD $ 270.00 for a simple electric motor from China.
There is a Bosch Brazil but is almost the same price.

So I have to think about the low-cost alternatives.

I thank you for your attention and I plan to post some pictures of my humble electric bike project.

Cheers

OF


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## feloni (Nov 17, 2015)

dcb said:


> no offense intended here, but I suspect the starter is being considered because of price/availability. And since it just needs a switch to control it. An alternator controller is going to have a very hard time competing on the price/simplicity of a series motor.
> 
> I've heard rumors of a rewound starter motor being used on a bike to good effect, nothing more than that though. It's just a ~2hp 12v series motor, though it is too small for continuous 2hp without real cooling. Might even rewind the solenoid and use a pushbutton throttle, but definitely want to check for roller bearings.
> 
> ...


You're right DCB, and not offend me.
It is because of low cost.

In my post above, I explain that it is impossible to import / buy an electric motor 800W (1HP + -) here in my country, because the high import taxes and even in domestic products.

Thanks for link of videos.
Cheers to All


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## feloni (Nov 17, 2015)

RIPPERTON said:


> So cool it, drilling holes isn't rocket science.
> Bambalam, as long as you have your mate to push start you...
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jrqnMQ9rPGo



This is a bike to only show on Youtube.
In my case is to ride the bike on city streets, especially on hills. My knee is asking, understood my dear friend.


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## dcb (Dec 5, 2009)

do you have lots of automatic transmissions in your country? the flexplate approach will make a lot of torque, i.e. for climbing hills. But a manual transmission flywheel/ring-gear would be too heavy.

12v starter batteries do not last long when cycled deeply, if you can get deep cycle batteries they should work longer. Don't expect a car battery to last many charge/discharge cycles.

I would want to keep the pedals, but it makes it a bit more complicated (consider the direction of rotation, and that gears will reverse it, or a large rear sprocket on the other side of the wheel will not, put the battery on a luggage rack and just deal with the different handling, I wouldn't chain it to the front sprocket if you need to climb hills, the solenoid can disconnect the gear if using a flexplate, but will probably get in the way of the existing gear cluster, etc).


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## bigmotherwhale (Apr 15, 2011)

i thought you guys might want to look at this before using the wrong motor 

i cant understand why you think this will cost more, the batteries will be the most expensive part and your likely to need more of them with a hot running amp hungry low voltage series motor like a starter.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dzfDbZY8Fuo

this guy is running cheap hobby packs and the speed is pretty respectable.


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## feloni (Nov 17, 2015)

bigmotherwhale said:


> i thought you guys might want to look at this before using the wrong motor
> 
> i cant understand why you think this will cost more, the batteries will be the most expensive part and your likely to need more of them with a hot running amp hungry low voltage series motor like a starter.
> 
> ...


BMW (and friends),
It is possible to convert a CAR GENERATOR (VW Beetle 12V / 25Ah) in an electric motor, as did the YouTube video of the boy with the Alternator?


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## dcb (Dec 5, 2009)

I wouldn't use front wheel drive for hill climbing, or friction drive, and "respectable speed" is usually in direct conflict with "respectable hill climbing" at these power levels. though he did keep the pedals. But it looks super easy to implement vs chains or flexplate (probably some welding there)

bmw, it is definately a useful trick, and neat to see. 

here are some specs from the comments cuz I might have a use for it:
I used a 120Amp 12V alternator. It came from an Audi A3 TDI. The brushless controller is a HobbyWing Flyfun 100A HV. It is running on 11S Lipo cells. You need to have a separate voltage/ current controller to power the rotor of the alternator. High rotor current gives you a lot of torque but limited RPM and low rotor current gives less torque but higher RPM. It has a 3 mode rotor current selector switch for three top speeds. ﻿46V 5ah.


so batteries, harder to find 120amp alternator, ~$100 speed control (there are probably cheaper ebike controllers that would work), another unnamed speed control for the field, throttle. It might not seem like a lot, but that is a matter of perspective. But it is still neat to see it in action. 25mph puts it in about the 400-500w category.



feloni said:


> BMW (and friends),
> It is possible to convert a CAR GENERATOR (VW Beetle 12V / 25Ah) in an electric motor, as did the YouTube video of the boy with the Alternator?


Yes, I believe so. a 6v one probably even better if you just have one 12v battery. plus it is meant for continuous duty.
http://www.angelfire.com/oh/PetesCafe/vwgen.html


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## bigmotherwhale (Apr 15, 2011)

A VW generator is a viable option, much better suited than a starter. i can see that working quite well. Its not going to have a stupidly low resistance either so the dc motor controller will be much smaller.


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## dcb (Dec 5, 2009)

bigmotherwhale said:


> so the dc motor controller will be much smaller.


lol, it is called a "switch"  (maybe a rheostat for field control)


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## bigmotherwhale (Apr 15, 2011)

if you are going to use a switch make sure you have an emergency disconnect, they tend to weld themselves shut


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## feloni (Nov 17, 2015)

dcb said:


> I wouldn't use front wheel drive for hill climbing, or friction drive, and "respectable speed" is usually in direct conflict with "respectable hill climbing" at these power levels. though he did keep the pedals. But it looks super easy to implement vs chains or flexplate (probably some welding there)
> 
> bmw, it is definately a useful trick, and neat to see.
> 
> ...



DCB,

You is an ANGEL without FIRE.

Very thanks for your link.
------------------------------------------------------

If you know more pages that talk about the subject (VW generator as a motor for e-bike) please post here.
Other members can also collaborate, if you guys want.
Thank you all, dear friends


OF


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## bigmotherwhale (Apr 15, 2011)

Just a little update that i thought might be of interest.

As a quick project, I mounted that 190amp perm magnet hybrid alternator to the back of a road bike directly on the wheel with just a friction drive, i used an old laptop bag and attached it to the frame and filled it with a 12s4p turnigy LiFePO4 39.6v 9ah nominal, and a HV hobby ESC with a modified heat sink (cpu cooler and fan) 

I have run with and without the field winding current, I used a single D cell battery to add some more torque to the motor, but i am yet to experiment with this properly. 

It wont self start but once its moving, Its dangerously fast! on the flat it just keeps accelerating, i need better brakes and a longer road to test properly, but im guessing 30 - 40mph with ease, when i have tied up loose ends (literally) and sorted out the braking issue, i will post a video, if the speed controller holds out....

BTW Its delivering over 1200watts of power, it could easily be delivering twice that but at the moment i don't have a meter that reads high enough and i cant find my shunt resistor, total cost of conversion was £125 including the batteries.


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## MineAngerBR (Jan 5, 2020)

bigmotherwhale said:


> All you need is a hobby esc or a e bike controller which are both around £30 ish an alternator and a battery, it wont cost you anymore than a starter motor and a dc motor controller and they are easily sourced.





bigmotherwhale said:


> the alternator i have is a water cooled 190amp Hitachi with neo magnet hybrid rotor, it work with or without field current applied. The laminations are less than a mm thick. have a look at this: http://s936.photobucket.com/user/bigmotherwhale/library/alternator


Hello, i know that i'm "necrothreading" something from 5 years ago, but i'm searching alternators to make builds as well (and maybe sell when ready to get some profit), and i saw your posts here. I'm from Brazil as well and i know the struggle to get any kind of imported goods (or even when produced in brazilian territory), but we keep on trying to make our projects come true. if OP still wants to do something like he wanted in the past, i would like to help him.


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