# [EVDL] Optima Trials and Tribulations



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Well, my luck with Optima batteries continues.
History so far:
Bought 13 Optima BlueTops.
2 were bad and had to be shipped back for replacement.
The 2 replacements showed up, and 1 of those was bad.
The replacement for that showed up - and the shipper had dropped it.
The replacement for that finally showed up (after an odd delay in 
shipping) and seems to be good.

I did a few light cycles of the new battery on the bench to bring it to 
close to the rest of the pack. (only had about 6 cycles on the pack so 
far!).

Note that the Sparrow has sat with the BRB pressed, and one battery out 
with cables disconnected for a month. The only load on the batteries 
were some MKIIC regs.
I hooked in the new battery, and turned on the PFC40. 9 of the regs 
immediately lit up. Of the 4 "low" ones, the new one and 2 others were 
about .2v below the reg point. So I've put those on a small charger to 
top them off.
The problem is the 4th low battery. It was QUITE low. Like at 13V or so.
So I put 12A charger on it. (Standard car battery charger). Set to AGM 
and 12A charge rate. Charger said the battery was at 51%. 
2 hours later, it's at 65%. 3 hours it's still at 65%.

AARRGGHH!!!

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Measure the voltage on charge.
Disconnect charger.
Wait 24 hours.
Measure the Open Circuit voltage.

That may give a clue about what happened.

Joe Smalley
Rural Kitsap County WA
Former owner of 48 Volt Fiesta
NEDRA 48 volt street conversion record holder
[email protected]


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "John G. Lussmyer" <[email protected]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>;
<[email protected]>
Sent: Saturday, November 03, 2007 2:52 PM
Subject: [EVDL] Optima Trials and Tribulations


> Well, my luck with Optima batteries continues.
> History so far:
> Bought 13 Optima BlueTops.
> 2 were bad and had to be shipped back for replacement.
> The 2 replacements showed up, and 1 of those was bad.
> The replacement for that showed up - and the shipper had dropped it.
> The replacement for that finally showed up (after an odd delay in
> shipping) and seems to be good.
>
> I did a few light cycles of the new battery on the bench to bring it to
> close to the rest of the pack. (only had about 6 cycles on the pack so
> far!).
>
> Note that the Sparrow has sat with the BRB pressed, and one battery out
> with cables disconnected for a month. The only load on the batteries
> were some MKIIC regs.
> I hooked in the new battery, and turned on the PFC40. 9 of the regs
> immediately lit up. Of the 4 "low" ones, the new one and 2 others were
> about .2v below the reg point. So I've put those on a small charger to
> top them off.
> The problem is the 4th low battery. It was QUITE low. Like at 13V or so.
> So I put 12A charger on it. (Standard car battery charger). Set to AGM
> and 12A charge rate. Charger said the battery was at 51%.
> 2 hours later, it's at 65%. 3 hours it's still at 65%.
>
> AARRGGHH!!!
>
> _______________________________________________
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> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Joe Smalley wrote:
> > Measure the voltage on charge.
> > Disconnect charger.
> > Wait 24 hours.
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Jeff Shanab wrote:
> > Do you mean 13V under charge at 12A? Is that one weak one warm? one
> > cylinder noticeably warmer than rest? drops to 8V-10V when remove power?
> > If answer is yes A cell is reversed! Set to 1amp max and charge for a
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Yep!

We have a set of Genesis XE-40s for Tweety on order from AeroBatteries!

WooHoo!

Ken

http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/983





-----Original Message-----
From: John G. Lussmyer <[email protected]>
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <[email protected]>; 
[email protected]
Sent: Sat, 3 Nov 2007 5:52 pm
Subject: [EVDL] Optima Trials and Tribulations



Well, my luck with Optima batteries continues.
History so far:
Bought 13 Optima BlueTops.
2 were bad and had to be shipped back for replacement.
The 2 replacements showed up, and 1 of those was bad.
The replacement for that showed up - and the shipper had dropped it.
The replacement for that finally showed up (after an odd delay in
shipping) and seems to be good.

I did a few light cycles of the new battery on the bench to bring it to
close to the rest of the pack. (only had about 6 cycles on the pack so
far!).

Note that the Sparrow has sat with the BRB pressed, and one battery out
with cables disconnected for a month. The only load on the batteries
were some MKIIC regs.
I hooked in the new battery, and turned on the PFC40. 9 of the regs
immediately lit up. Of the 4 "low" ones, the new one and 2 others were
about .2v below the reg point. So I've put those on a small charger to
top them off.
The problem is the 4th low battery. It was QUITE low. Like at 13V or 
so.
So I put 12A charger on it. (Standard car battery charger). Set to AGM
and 12A charge rate. Charger said the battery was at 51%.
2 hours later, it's at 65%. 3 hours it's still at 65%.

AARRGGHH!!!

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

John G. Lussmyer writes:
> 
> Well, it wasn't a full 24 hours, but I checked it this morning, about 18 
> hours off charge.
> 1-12.76
> 2-12.76
> 3-12.76
> 4-12.73
> 5-12.75
> 6-12.64
> 7-12.91
> 8-12.77
> 9-12.78
> 10-12.69
> 11-12.76
> 12-12.89
> 13-12.72

John,

Note that none of your batteries are "fully charged" yet! They should
read 13.1v or so when fully charged. They should hold that voltage for
days, so resting overnight wouldn't affect the readings much.

Bummer about the DC/DC!

Ralph

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Ralph Merwin wrote:
> 
> > John G. Lussmyer writes:
> > >
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Roger Stockton writes:
> 
> There may not be enough information here to make that conclusion! John is
> reporting the voltages after about 18hrs rest, and we need to know the
> voltages shortly after charge completion (say 30-60min) to be able to say
> if the batteries were fully charged but have high self-discharge, or if
> they simply weren't fully charged.

True. I was assuming that since these are fairly new batteries that the
self-discharge rate would be very low, so he should be able to see the
full 13.1v or so even after 18 hours.

Ralph

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> John G. Lussmyer wrote:
> > Well, it wasn't a full 24 hours, but I checked it this morning, about 18
> > hours off charge.
> > 1-12.76
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

From: John G. Lussmyer
> Well, it wasn't a full 24 hours, but I checked it this morning, about
> 18 hours off charge... 12.64-12.91 volts.

Weird. I have 3 very old and very abused Optimas here. I just measured the voltages on them after sitting about 4-6 months since the last time they were charged. 12.90v, 12.87v, and 12.84v.

I can imagine one bad battery; but almost of them? Have you checked your voltmeter? Maybe it is lying to you. How much current exactly do your Rudman regulators and whatever else is connected to the batteries draw?

--
"Excellence does not require perfection." -- Henry James
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart-at-earthlink.net

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Lee Hart wrote:
> > From: John G. Lussmyer
> >
> >> Well, it wasn't a full 24 hours, but I checked it this morning, about
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

John G. Lussmyer writes:
> 
> I finished charging #10, and then let the batteries sit another 3 days.
> Now we get:
> 1-12.71
> 2-12.73
> 3-12.72
> 4-12.67
> 5-12.69
> 6-12.59
> 7-12.68
> 8-12.71
> 9-12.73
> 10-12.82
> 11-12.71
> 12-12.71
> 13-12.65
> 
> All batteries do have MKIIC regs on them - so there is a tiny draw at 
> all times.

John,

Out of curiosity, I went out to the garage and checked the voltage of
several of my Optimas. They were charged a couple of weeks ago, and
not "properly" at that. There are no loads or regs on these batteries.
Six pairs in the vehicle all measured between 12.93v and 12.99v. One
individual battery measured 13.02v. Two more batteries on the garage
floor measured about 12.88v (these two have not been in regular use,
and have not been properly charged for a long time).

So either all of your new batteries are funky, or your batteries are
not getting fully charged, or the regs have a higher drain than expected,
or there is some other load on them. Have you made sure there are no
active loads on the pack? Have you tried charging the batteries and
then disconnecting the regs before letting them sit?

What charge profile did you use? How was it run - did you let the regs
do the taper, or did you do that manually?

One other thing to try would be to use the PFC to charge one battery,
with you controlling the charge. Let it run at 10 amps or so until
the battery hits 14.7v, then manually taper the current down in steps,
letting the voltage come back up to 14.7v at each step. Continue until
the current drops to below one amp. The taper may take an hour or so
if the battery has not been getting fully charged.

Ralph

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

That is interesting...
Since Tweety is a daily driver it never sits longer than 12 hours 
between charges / drives. However, every morning all of its batteries 
are at 13.0 to 13.1 volts. I do have regulators installed, but they are 
Hot Juice Electric BEQ1s. They draw 300 micro amps quiescent current. 
Do you suppose the regulators draw enough to pull them down that much?


Ken

http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/983





-----Original Message-----
From: John G. Lussmyer <[email protected]>
To: Lee Hart <[email protected]>; Electric Vehicle Discussion List 
<[email protected]>
Sent: Wed, 7 Nov 2007 9:44 pm
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Optima Trials and Tribulations





> Lee Hart wrote:
> > From: John G. Lussmyer
> >
> >> Well, it wasn't a full 24 hours, but I checked it this morning, about
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Ralph Merwin wrote:
> > Out of curiosity, I went out to the garage and checked the voltage of
> > several of my Optimas. They were charged a couple of weeks ago, and
> > not "properly" at that. There are no loads or regs on these batteries.
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> John G. Lussmyer wrote:
> > Something is definitely sounding fishy.
> > So I'm going to go out today and measure the current a quiescent reg
> > pulls, and I'll also hook up one of my regulated bench supplies to make
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> John G. Lussmyer wrote:
> 
> > So I checked a random reg with my Fluke 87 meter.
> > Hook the reg up, and the current jumps up to mA and then
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

From: John G. Lussmyer
> So I checked a random reg with my Fluke 87 meter.
> Hook the reg up, and the current jumps up to mA and then starts 
> dropping, and continues dropping.
> After a minute or two, it was down to 0.2uA!

John, that can't be correct. What model regs do you have? The early ones all had an LM358 which draws a couple milliamps of supply current, plus a few resistors that add a bit more. The later regs have a lotmore parts, so I would expect them to draw even more.

--
"Excellence does not require perfection." -- Henry James
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart-at-earthlink.net

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Lee Hart wrote:
> > From: John G. Lussmyer
> >
> >> So I checked a random reg with my Fluke 87 meter.
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

John, sounds like you were measuring AC mA to me. My
Fluke 87 (one of the early ones) is at home, so I
can't confirm, but I seem to remember when you rotate
the knob to measure current, it is by default AC
current and you have to push the orange "shift" button
to get it to measure DC current.

- Steven Ciciora




> --- Lee Hart <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> > From: John G. Lussmyer
> > > So I checked a random reg with my Fluke 87 meter.
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Hmm, I thought maybe he was just seeing a capacitor charging (i.e. no real
load)

> John, sounds like you were measuring AC mA to me. My
> Fluke 87 (one of the early ones) is at home, so I
> can't confirm, but I seem to remember when you rotate
> the knob to measure current, it is by default AC
> current and you have to push the orange "shift" button
> to get it to measure DC current.
>
> - Steven Ciciora
>
>


> > --- Lee Hart <[email protected]> wrote:
> >
> >> From: John G. Lussmyer
> >> > So I checked a random reg with my Fluke 87 meter.
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Steven Ciciora wrote:
> > John, sounds like you were measuring AC mA to me. My
> > Fluke 87 (one of the early ones) is at home, so I
> > can't confirm, but I seem to remember when you rotate
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

John G. Lussmyer writes:
> 
> Also, I've been doing some experiments (evil laugh here) on my batteries.
> Since they all seem to indicate being Not full, I've been putting my 
> bench supply on each one in turn. Set to 14.8V, and leave it on for a 
> couple of hours. This generally ends with a 0.6A charge rate.
> I did that on 3 batteries yesterday, so it's been 12-18 hours since they 
> were on the charger/supply.
> 12.98, 12.94, 12.98 are the readings. Still seem a bit low.

Now would be a good time to do the "2 amps for an hour, voltage unregulated"
phase on one of these batteries. Note that the voltage may go as high as
17.5v. Watch the temperature and stop the cycle if the battery starts over
heating. Let them rest "a while" afterwards and then recheck the voltage.

Ralph

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Ralph Merwin wrote:
> > Now would be a good time to do the "2 amps for an hour, voltage unregulated"
> > phase on one of these batteries. Note that the voltage may go as high as
> > 17.5v. Watch the temperature and stop the cycle if the battery starts over
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> John G. Lussmyer wrote:
> > I've been doing some experiments (evil laugh here) on my batteries.
> > Since they all seem to indicate being Not full, I've been putting my
> > bench supply on each one in turn. Set to 14.8V, and leave it on for a
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Lee Hart wrote:
> > John, have you done any capacity tests? For example, amphour capacity
> > with a 25-amp load? I'm suspecting that you may have gotten some old
> > batteries that had sat around a long time in a discharged state. If you
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> John G. Lussmyer wrote:
> 
> > Question: Is it normal for an Optima to start
> > crackling/hissing at 14.8V charge?
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Roger Stockton wrote:
> > Yes, if the battery has been chronically undercharged or has been left to self-discharge in the past and has not been well equalised yet.
> >
> 
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> John G. Lussmyer wrote:
> > I'm really beginning to wonder about this whole set of batteries.
> > I just finished a discharge test on #3.
> > 1:22 at 26.6 (approx) Amps.
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> John G. Lussmyer wrote:
> >
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

I wonder if these batteries would improve after a few charge/discharge
cycles? 

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "John G. Lussmyer" <[email protected]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Saturday, November 10, 2007 5:12 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Optima Trials and Tribulations




> > John G. Lussmyer wrote:
> >
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

In my experience a new AGM battery, freshly charged
sits at about 13.25V even several hours after coming off charge,
that surface charge will quickly disappear when you start using
the battery, but I have seen it sit there with new batts.
Note that if the battery is not room temp, it could be different! 

Regards,

Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
Email: [email protected] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [email protected]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Second Life: www.secondlife.com/?u=3b42cb3f4ae249319edb487991c30acb

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of John G. Lussmyer
Sent: Friday, November 09, 2007 7:27 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Optima Trials and Tribulations



> Roger Stockton wrote:
> > Yes, if the battery has been chronically undercharged or has been left to self-discharge in the past and has not been well equalised yet.
> >
> 
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

John G. Lussmyer writes:
> 
> I've done 8 batteries so far. Using a 26.6A discharge rate (very close 
> to the rate used for "Rerserve Capacity" ratings)
> 6 were in the 80-85 minutes range, and 2 were in the 45-50 minutes range.
> I'm currently doing a 1A slow charge with no voltage limit on the 2 
> stinkers.
> This is all at 55-60 deg F.
> Frankly, 85 minutes doesn't seem very good for a battery with a 120 
> minute rating.

John,

For an experiment, you might try cycling one of the 'stinkers' several
times with you capacity tester to see if the capacity increases. You
should (hopefully) see an increase with each cycle.

Also, with your discharge rate of 26.6 amps, you're seeing slightly
shorter times than you would at 25 amps - an 85 minute run at 26.6 amps
would be closer to 90 minutes at 25 amps. Just something to keep in
mind when you compare your numbers to the factory numbers based on a
different current.

Ralph

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Ralph Merwin wrote:
> > For an experiment, you might try cycling one of the 'stinkers' several
> > times with you capacity tester to see if the capacity increases. You
> > should (hopefully) see an increase with each cycle.
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

From: John G. Lussmyer
> Has ANYONE else done reserve capacity tests on their Optimas?

Here are the capacities at 25amps of some Optima Yellow Tops I tested in 2003. These are the 20 survivors in a pack of 25 from one of Rick Woodbury's Tangos. The pack had been badly abused, and had no regulators, and was about a year old at the time.

15.61ah
21.35ah
22.46ah
22.54ah
22.78ah

24.81ah
26.53ah
27.03ah
31.97ah
33.4ah

33.54ah
34.53ah
34.71ah
34.73ah
36.31ah

36.58ah
39.67ah
41.0ah
41.94ah
42.08ah

Though these numbers are low and spread all over the place, I was actually impressed that they had survived as well as they did with a bad-boy charger and no regulators.


--
"Excellence does not require perfection." -- Henry James
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart-at-earthlink.net

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Lee Hart wrote:
> > Here are the capacities at 25amps of some Optima Yellow Tops I tested in 2003. These are the 20 survivors in a pack of 25 from one of Rick Woodbury's Tangos. The pack had been badly abused, and had no regulators, and was about a year old at the time.
> >
> > 15.61ah
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

John G. Lussmyer writes:
> 
> 
> Has ANYONE else done reserve capacity tests on their Optimas?
> I'm just wondering if this is normal rating inflation, or if Optimas 
> have really gone to hell.
> I'm starting to lean towards the latter conclusion. If I get these 2 bad 
> ones replaced, AND both of them are actually good (which isn't a real 
> high probability), that means there were 13 good out of 19 batteries. 
> That is a pretty lousy ratio.

John,

I've done lots of capacity testing on my pack of 26 Optimas. I have a
25 amp constant current load that shuts off when the battery voltage
reaches 10.5v. My initial tests used a shunt and an E-Meter to measure
the amp hours. My more recent testing was done with a clock to time the
discharge cycle, and then I calculated the amp hours from there.

These batteries were purchased in July 2003 in a group purchase with
three other EVers here in Portland. I connected them all in parallel
and charged them now and then. It took me a couple of years to get the
car ready to install them.

When I first tested the Optimas (July 2005), and possibly not correctly
charged, they ranged between 25.5 AH and 39.6 AH. I cycled the lower
capacity batteries several times and the capacity increased to over 32
amp hours for each battery. I stopped cycling them once they were all
over 32 amp hours, and I didn't cycle the higher capacity batteries at
all. 

My pack now has about 550 cycles on it and about 9860 miles. Some of
the battery pairs have been having problems (red lights on the regs).
In the last few months I've been running capacity tests again. The
spread now is surprising. Most of the batteries come in between 37 AH
and 40 AH. A few are lower at about 20-28 AH. Some (about 5) have
capacities that are very low, between 2 AH and 8 AH. These tests were
all run in the June-August time frame this year, so the batteries were
not cold.

I also have three new-old-stock Optimas from the same group purchase.
These have sat unused but charged occasionally for about four years.
Their capacities were 35 AH, 40 AH and almost 46 AH, and that's without
cycling them more than once.


So, my thoughts on your pack are that the capacities are generally not
bad, and that they may improve with a few cycles. You may have a couple
that are either in need of more attention or that just may be weaker.

The fact that your batteries won't hold the specified voltage after a
full charge is worrisome. This makes me think that the dealer may have
pawned off some factory rejects as 'new' batteries.

As a tangential data point, a customer I'm working with at work is from
a major trucking company, and they use pallets of Optima group 31s. I
asked him about the rumors of lower quality Optimas now, and he said
their failure rate is the lowest among the battery manufactures they
work with. He didn't say who other manufactures were.

Ralph

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Ralph Merwin wrote:
> > When I first tested the Optimas (July 2005), and possibly not correctly
> > charged, they ranged between 25.5 AH and 39.6 AH. I cycled the lower
> > capacity batteries several times and the capacity increased to over 32
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> John G. Lussmyer wrote:
> 
> > Has ANYONE else done reserve capacity tests on their Optimas?
> > I'm just wondering if this is normal rating inflation, or if
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

I'm trying to decide if I'm getting REALLY forgetful, or if Optima's 
Quality Control just doesn't even EXIST any more.
For all my current testing, I've pulled all 13 (well, 12, 1 is in 
transit being replaced) batteries (and their regs) out of my Sparrow and 
have them on the bench. There were all supposedly fully charged a 
couple of weeks ago.
I've then hooked up a bench supply set to 14.8V, and most of them 
started in the 2-3A range, and dropped to below 1A. Some of these took 
4 or 5 hours to do so though... (and sadly, I forgot to track which ones 
took how long.)
I then do a Reserve Capacity test - which takes about 1 1/2 hours.
Immediately after coming off test, they get the 40A smart charger hooked up.
Generally, the battery is "full" again before the next test finishes.
NOTE: My smart charger has been having trouble detecting that the 
battery is actually full again. For quite a few of them, it has come up 
to 90% and just sat there until I turned it off and turned it back on - 
at which time it says the battery is at 100%.
(So, the Smart Charger is getting confused for some reason.)

Today I'm going to make sure that ALL the regs are set correctly, and 
check to make sure that none of them are drawing too much current. (just 
in case one got "broken" somehow.)
So I started to hook them up, then hook up my bench supply to set the 
voltage.
So far I've found 3 batteries that were < 12V !!! These had supposedly 
been recharged early yesterday, or late friday!

So, either my charger has flaked out, I've flaked out, or these are 
self-discharging.

It just is NOT supposed to be this hard to get a working pack of Optimas!

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

John G. Lussmyer writes:
> 
> I've then hooked up a bench supply set to 14.8V, and most of them 
> started in the 2-3A range, and dropped to below 1A. Some of these took 
> 4 or 5 hours to do so though... (and sadly, I forgot to track which ones 
> took how long.)

Did you notice what the voltages were after removing the batteries from
the bench supply? Were they 'normal' looking?


> I then do a Reserve Capacity test - which takes about 1 1/2 hours.
> Immediately after coming off test, they get the 40A smart charger hooked up.
> Generally, the battery is "full" again before the next test finishes.
> NOTE: My smart charger has been having trouble detecting that the 
> battery is actually full again. For quite a few of them, it has come up 
> to 90% and just sat there until I turned it off and turned it back on - 
> at which time it says the battery is at 100%.
> (So, the Smart Charger is getting confused for some reason.)

Hmmm - the charger is suspect... Have you monitored it to see what it's
doing? Does it run anything like the Optima spec charge cycle, or does
it do something else? Specifically at what voltage does it stop running
full power and start tapering the current, and then at what point does
it declare "100%"?

Can you turn the current down? If so, try using 10 or 15 amps instead
of 40 amps.


> Today I'm going to make sure that ALL the regs are set correctly, and 
> check to make sure that none of them are drawing too much current. (just 
> in case one got "broken" somehow.)
> So I started to hook them up, then hook up my bench supply to set the 
> voltage.
> So far I've found 3 batteries that were < 12V !!! These had supposedly 
> been recharged early yesterday, or late friday!
> 
> So, either my charger has flaked out, I've flaked out, or these are 
> self-discharging.

I'd suggest charging the batteries with the bench supply. Or your PFC
charger, with you as the regulator.

Ralph

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Ralph Merwin wrote:
> > For an experiment, you might try cycling one of the 'stinkers' several
> > times with you capacity tester to see if the capacity increases. You
> > should (hopefully) see an increase with each cycle.
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Ralph Merwin wrote:
> > Did you notice what the voltages were after removing the batteries from
> > the bench supply? Were they 'normal' looking?
> >
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

John Olsen, former electro chemist at optima, told me
how I should cycle "abused" yellow tops. He said to
charge them at 4A, constant current, for 16 hours, and
"let the voltage do what ever it wants to do". I
think Norm Smith recently said that even to let them
get to some voltage close to 20V. But wait! Aren't I
going to way over charge the batteries that are low on
capacity? 4 amps x 16 hours is 64 amp hours! His
reply is worth remembering "You are not going to get
out any more amp-hours unless you put more amp-hours
in". He said to keep cycling the yellow tops until
you don't see any more increase in capacity.

I don't think you should be using your smart charger
for this, especially the "stinker" batteries. Your
smart charger isn't smart enough to know what you are
trying to do: force in more amp-hours than a normal
charge, and to always put back in the same number of
amp-hours to make the discharge test comparisons more
useful. I have not been able to get consistent
cycling tests until I did a constant current for a
fixed length of time charge.

Yes, 4A for 16 hours is a bit abusive, and they will
vent some, but look at it this way: they aren't any
good right now, so you don't have anything to loose.

Man, John, you have had the _worst_ luck with EVs...
hopefully it will turn around someday soon!

- Steven Ciciora




> --- "John G. Lussmyer" <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> > Ralph Merwin wrote:
> > > For an experiment, you might try cycling one of
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Steven Ciciora wrote:
> > I don't think you should be using your smart charger
> > for this, especially the "stinker" batteries. Your
> > smart charger isn't smart enough to know what you are
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> I have been finishing each battery with my bench
> supply set to 14.8V, 
> until the current was < 0.5A.
> So they SHOULD be near the same state of charge.
> 

But unless you charged it with an e-meter, you are not
sure how many amp hours went in. You can't expect 50
amp hours out unless you put in at least 50 amp-hours.
Which is one reason John recommended forcing in 64
amp-hours. Letting it charge at 14.8V until the
current tapers doesn't mean you forced in at least 50
amp hours. Sure, you are going to over-charge them
some, but that is usually what they need to wake them
up.

- I know I am not explaining myself well; I've got
some Atmel issues giving me a headache right now. 
Sorry about that...

- Steven Ciciora

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

So, my final test results are: (Note: discharging at 26.6A, not the 25 
for "Reserve Capacity". Also all batteries were at about 50 deg F)

Battery Minutes 
#1 85
#2 85
#3 82
#4 79
#5 83
#6 76
#7 85
#8 82
#9 85
#10 - waiting for replacement
#11 80
#12 52
#13 48

I'm going to hook up my PFC and do some forced charging to see if that 
helps the situation.
I'm also going to get #12 and #13 replaced.

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

The temperature decrease should cause around a 10% capacity loss. The 
extra amperage over 25 is roughly decreasing time by 8%. When 
considering both effects you seem to be getting about 80% (or 
slightly more) of expected capacity from the better behaved Optimas. 
That sounds about right for a new battery that still needs to be 
broken in.

Paul



> John G. Lussmyer wrote:
> 
> > Yeah, I figured it would be a bit lower, but even 90 is pretty bad for
> > 120 min rated battery.
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

John G. Lussmyer writes:
> 


> > Ralph Merwin wrote:
> > > For an experiment, you might try cycling one of the 'stinkers' several
> > > times with you capacity tester to see if the capacity increases. You
> > > should (hopefully) see an increase with each cycle.
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Ralph Merwin wrote:
> > OK, not to sound like a broken record, but did you do the 2 amps for
> > an hour part of the charge cycle, or did you stop after the current
> > tapered down to < 1 amp? I noticed in my testing that the capacity
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> John G. Lussmyer wrote:
> 
> > Are you saying that EVERY time you charge your Optimas, you
> > do a 2A unlimited Voltage for an hour at the end of the charge?
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

John G. Lussmyer writes:
> 
> Not this time.
> Are you saying that EVERY time you charge your Optimas, you do a 2A 
> unlimited Voltage for an hour at the end of the charge?
> i.e. a full equalization?

Yes, every time you do a full discharge, do an equalization.

For less-than-full discharge cycles, there is no specification, but
my thoughts are to treat them more like NiCDs. In this case, the amp
hours drawn out since the last equalization charge are counted and
accumulate. The amp hours returned during charge are not counted for
this. When <full capacity> amp hours have been drawn out, then do an
equalization again and reset the amp hour counter.

An alternative might be to scale the duration of the equalization to
the number of amp hours drawn out on each cycle. I haven't tried this
yet to see how the battery reacts to a short equalization phase.

Ralph

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Roger Stockton writes:
> 
> Ralph has given you a clue, though: if he didn't do 2A for 1hr, the
> capacity would not grow from cycle to cycle.

Not only did it not grow, it often decreased!


> If you want to short circuit the process, the 4A for 16hrs
> Optima-recommended comissioning charge works too.

I couldn't get one of these charges to complete without having the
battery overheat. I tried stopping the charge when the battery got
hot and then restarting when it got cold, but it still overheats 
quickly. Perhaps this indicates a permanant loss of capacity? (As
opposed to a recoverable battery that doesn't overheat?)

Ralph

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Ralph Merwin wrote:
> > Roger Stockton writes:
> >
> >> Ralph has given you a clue, though: if he didn't do 2A for 1hr, the
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

John G. Lussmyer writes:
> 
> But what does this chronic overcharge do to cycle life of the battery?

Too much overcharge will degrade the cycle life. Too little overcharge
will also degrade the cycle life. The trick is finding the balance...

Running 2 amps for an hour after any discharge regardless of depth of
discharge is too much overcharge. Optima's spec only details what to
do for a full discharge, so it's an experiment to see what to do for
partial discharges.


> And is it really unlimited voltage for this?

Yes, per the Optima spec, there is no voltage limit during this phase.
You may see the voltage go over 17.5v or more.

I've found that healthy Optimas will generally not vent during this
phase. You can hear a 'foaming' sound if you listen to the battery
through a 2 or 3 inch diameter pipe, and you can tell the sound is
not coming from the vents.

Unhealthy Optimas get too hot and do vent. You can hear the vent
hissing.

Ralph

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

From: John G. Lussmyer
> But what does this chronic overcharge do to cycle life of the battery?
> And is it really unlimited voltage for this?

A sealed AGM battery can tolerate a *small* contiuous charging current, at least for weeks (though not years). For your Optima, it will be around 0.1 to 0.5 amps depending on temperature, age of the battery, and how good the vent seals are.

The voltage doesn't matter -- it is the *current* that matters. The voltage is just what drives the current.

Too much current, and the voltage will go quite high (over 15v). The excess current causes the battery to get warm, and generates gas faster than the recombination process can handle. The pressure inside the case goes up until the vents open. The current is also causing grid corrosion, which slowly eats the positive grids away.

--
"Excellence does not require perfection." -- Henry James
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart-at-earthlink.net

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Ralph Merwin wrote:
> > Running 2 amps for an hour after any discharge regardless of depth of
> > discharge is too much overcharge. Optima's spec only details what to
> > do for a full discharge, so it's an experiment to see what to do for
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

[No message]


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Keith Richtman wrote:
> > Is this the datasheet you need?
> > http://www.optimabatteries.com/_media/documents/specs/D34_082104.pdf
> >
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

One thing to remember is the current YT's are not the ones that John Wayland
used inthe good old days. I would not recommend Yellow Tops anymore.
Lawrence Rhodes......

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

From: Steven Ciciora


> John Lussmeyer wrote:
> >> I have been finishing each battery with my bench
> >> supply set to 14.8V, until the current was < 0.5A.
> >> So they SHOULD be near the same state of charge.
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

>> Are you saying that EVERY time you charge your Optimas, you
>> do a 2A unlimited Voltage for an hour at the end of the charge?
>> i.e. a full equalization?
>


> Roger Stockton wrote:
> > Pretty much. It has been suggested that Optima's 2hr recommendation
> > is based on the assumption that you are charging after pulling the
> > battery to 80%DOD, and that it could be beneficial to shorten the 2A
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Lee Hart wrote:
> 
> > Optima's recommendation is based on the assumption that you
> > prefer maximum capcity over cycle life.
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Thanks for the additional information, Roger. You have a lot more good 
data than I do!



> Roger Stockton wrote:
> >> Optima's recommendation is based on the assumption that you prefer
> >> maximum capacity over cycle life.
> >
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Lee Hart wrote:
> 
> > Thanks for the additional information, Roger. You have a lot
> > more good data than I do!
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> John G. Lussmyer wrote:
> > So, my final test results are: (Note: discharging at 26.6A, not the 25
> > for "Reserve Capacity". Also all batteries were at about 50 deg F)
> >
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> John G. Lussmyer wrote:
> > WHY do people lie about something that will be easily verifiable?
> > Generally I don't get mad at companies until they do lie.
> > I am now royally pissed at BatteriesRUs.com, and am really hoping that
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> John G. Lussmyer wrote:
> > So, my final test results are: (Note: discharging at 26.6A, not the 25
> > for "Reserve Capacity". Also all batteries were at about 50 deg F)
> >
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Hello John,

Its best to mark some type of mark or scratch on the battery, so you tell if 
you got the same batteries back. Also check the date codes. They tried to 
slip me 10 batteries that were dated 9 months older then the other 20.

Right now as of today, there is no battery dealer here in my area that will 
deal with Exide Optima or Orbital's. Sams Club drop them, because of too 
many returns. My independent auto parts store will no longer handle them. 
They took me to the back room where there was a stack of them ready to be 
pick up. They only had two left that was about a year old, so I took one to 
test out.

I charge the Optima with a Smart Charger that is set for a AGM-GEL battery 
and it charge it up fine. The charging voltage went from 13.6V to 14.8V 
which held it there for a second and then drop to 14.2 volts for about a 
minute and then took it up to 14.8 volts for another minute and it keep 
repeating this pattern until it went into a maintaining charge at about 
12.68 volts.

A friend of my bought three of these batteries, which two came from Sams 
Club. They went bad in with a year and took them back to Sams Club, they 
said they check good, and would not replace the battery for him.

I latter talk with the Trojen Company which also makes Optima's batteries, 
and they said you must charge them at a lower rate than a lead-acid battery 
and you test them with a 75 amp load tester and compare the reserved minutes 
at 75 amps for the Optima battery. One cycle is from 100% SOC to 20% SOC.

Roland


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "John G. Lussmyer" <[email protected]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Saturday, January 12, 2008 9:50 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Optima Trials and Tribulations




> > John G. Lussmyer wrote:
> > > So, my final test results are: (Note: discharging at 26.6A, not the 25
> > > for "Reserve Capacity". Also all batteries were at about 50 deg F)
> > >
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Roland Wiench wrote:
> > Right now as of today, there is no battery dealer here in my area that will
> > deal with Exide Optima or Orbital's. Sams Club drop them, because of too
> > many returns. My independent auto parts store will no longer handle them.
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Hello John,

A battery specification chart will show cranking amp (CCA @ 0 and CCA @ 32) 
and a Reserved @ 25 amps.

A deep cycle battery chart should show Reserve @ 25A, Reserve @ 75A, and Amp 
Hr @ 20 Hr.

In testing a deep cycle battery, you could use a 25 amp load of some type. 
There are 75 amp load testers than can be use to check the reserved minutes 
listed at 75 amps.

If I test my T-145's at 75 amps, the battery should draw this ampere for 145 
minutes at a Reserved Minutes at 75 amps which would discharge the battery 
to about 20% SOC.

At 25 amps, it would take 530 minutes to discharge to 20% SOC.

I normally can drive my EV at a 75 amp load, which will test all the 
batteries all at once using a Link-10 E-meter for the battery data.

Roland



----- Original Message ----- 
From: "John G. Lussmyer" <[email protected]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Sunday, January 13, 2008 8:36 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Optima Trials and Tribulations




> > Roland Wiench wrote:
> > > Right now as of today, there is no battery dealer here in my area that
> > > will
> > > deal with Exide Optima or Orbital's. Sams Club drop them, because of
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Roland Wiench wrote:
> > Hello John,
> >
> > A battery specification chart will show cranking amp (CCA @ 0 and CCA @ 32)
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> On 13 Jan 2008 at 7:36, John G. Lussmyer wrote:
> 
> > Reserve capacity is measured at 25A. I don't see how measuring at 75A
> > is comparable.
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> EVDL Administrator wrote:
> > Reserve capacity is measured at whatever current you want, but the
> > standard is 25 amps for marine batteries and 75 amps for golf car
> > batteries.
> ...


----------

