# [EVDL] crazy super budget EV conversion



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

just an amusing thought perhaps but what if you left the ICE in, removed 
the cylinders so the crankshaft could turn as freely as possible and 
used the starter motor to drive the car?
I have data saying that a typical start for a 4 cylinder motor is around 
400A start spike and then pulsing around 150A. let's say it could handle 
100A for some time and you feed it 120V. could it work as a city car : )
a 279$ Kelly controller and a bit of batteries

Dan

_______________________________________________
For subscription options, see
http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Dan Frederiksen wrote:
> > just an amusing thought perhaps but what if you left the ICE in, removed
> > the cylinders so the crankshaft could turn as freely as possible and
> > used the starter motor to drive the car?
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Roy LeMeur wrote:
> > Here is a version of this you may find amusing-
> > http://www.angelfire.com/ca4/renewables/fringengineer.html
> >
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

I remember that letter Roy. 
The only real question I have is....
Will the carburetor for an '82 small block 400 (also out of a Crown Vic)
work for the throttle linkage versus that from a 302. I just don't see the
difference.

Tisk tisk ;-)

But in all seriousness, Dan you will have a hard time removing the cylinders
and keeping the journal bearings for the crankshaft intact. It may be
easier just to take the pistons out like recommended by this "fringe
engineer" physicist that Roy refers to.

You could do an easy test on your existing ICE car. Just take out the spark
plugs, put it in gear, hold the key in the start position. Your car will
move nice and smooth without the compression of the pistons in the cylinder
heads. I did this once when my wife's car wouldn't start sitting on the
dock waiting to get on the ferry from Juneau up to a mainland port in
Alaska. I drove it all the way to the dock, turned it off for half an hour
and then it wouldn't start. So, popped out the plugs and rode the starter
key to push it about 1/4 mile down the lane, over the gang plank and into
the ferry. The only reason they let me on like that because my big truck
was already on the ferry and I said I could tow it off if need be. It
turned out to just be some ice (frozen water) in the fuel line. But hey
that was my first EV experience. I don't suspect that starter would have
made it a whole mile though, not EVen once.

Mike

> -----Original Message-----
> From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On
> Behalf Of Roy LeMeur
> Sent: Thursday, January 10, 2008 11:47 PM
> To: EVDL EVDL
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] crazy super budget EV conversion
> 
> 
> 
> 


> > Dan Frederiksen wrote:
> > > just an amusing thought perhaps but what if you left the ICE in,
> > removed
> > > the cylinders so the crankshaft could turn as freely as possible and
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Dan Frederiksen" <[email protected]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, January 11, 2008 1:58 AM
Subject: [EVDL] crazy super budget EV conversion


> just an amusing thought perhaps but what if you left the ICE in, removed
> the cylinders so the crankshaft could turn as freely as possible and
> used the starter motor to drive the car?
> I have data saying that a typical start for a 4 cylinder motor is around
> 400A start spike and then pulsing around 150A. let's say it could handle
> 100A for some time and you feed it 120V. could it work as a city car : )
> a 279$ Kelly controller and a bit of batteries
>
> Dan
>
Dan!DAN! Ya KNOW better? I hope!? Starters are LOUSY traction 
motors! You will be letting theire smoke out in less than a mile!As Mike W. 
said, he could move his car onto the Ferry, but not much further! I have a 
old '54 International School bus camper and with the plugs out was able to 
move it arround the yard. BARELY! But it is about 6 tons, but I needed 2 12 
volt batteries, this was an extreame, though as it had to climb out of the 
holes the tires had made just SITTING for months. But for a car? Hell, IF 
you were to be able to drive mose than several hundred yards the starter 
will DIE! Trust me! Went through all this stuff as a kid, in my deformative 
years! Using starters on go karts etc. Chewing up their chintzy sleave 
bearings etc! I have scene this car proposal before and it slightly less 
practical than that Cuban guy that ALMOST made it to FLA in a Buick , bouyed 
up with oil drums, SAME guy that tried it in a Chevy Flatbed truck awile 
before. Had the US Coast Guard hadn't showed up he WOULDA made it, though? 
Sadly they SUNK his Ship-rolet! Far as I'm concerned he DESERVED to get 
here! but a Starter car is less practical than a Shiprolet. it WILL go, but 
not worth it. Go get a Golf cart motor OR a damn BOAT ,(Or a REAL TM) ya 
will do better. A sort of when Pigs fly, thing? ItCOULD be done, but don't 
waste yur time, in Denmark or USA!

Try 120 volts to a starter and ya WILL have a smoke show, Ha Ha!Send it 
to You Tube!

seeya

Bob> 

_______________________________________________
For subscription options, see
http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Mike Willmon wrote:
> > But in all seriousness, Dan you will have a hard time removing the cylinders
> > and keeping the journal bearings for the crankshaft intact. It may be
> > easier just to take the pistons out like recommended by this "fringe
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)
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----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

http://www.newindo.com/delcoremy/images/delco%20remy%20starter%2050MT-24V_pc
_sm.jpg

That is a monster starter motor, designed for 20L+ engines!!!

Maximum duty cycle will kill it. It'll smoke after a mile or
two if not before that. The efficiency kinda sucks, too.
Most passenger car starters are 1 to 1.5kW. Same thing, they
aren't designed for continuous operation and will burn up
after a short period of time. Also, the dry ring and pinion
meshing arrangement isn't particularly efficient, nor will it
last a particularly long time.

-Dale

_______________________________________________
For subscription options, see
http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Dan Frederiksen wrote:
> > ok, how fast did it go? were there any discernable acceleration?
> > what vehicle was it?
> >
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> you wrote:
> 
> 
> >You could do an easy test on your existing ICE car. Just take out the spark
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Multiple reasons for not doing this come to mind. Starter motors are 
generally quite inefficient, they burn up quickly under constant duty even 
in an ICE car that is hard-starting, the ring gear/starter motor interface 
is not lubricated, you have all kinds of frictional losses between the motor 
and the wheels, and, last but not least, it's just not that hard or 
expensive (especially in the long run) to remove the ICE engine and drop in 
a motor and adapter plate. Besides, in many cases you can sell the ICE 
engine to pay for the adapter plate and more.

Lon 

_______________________________________________
For subscription options, see
http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Dale Ulan wrote:
> > http://www.newindo.com/delcoremy/images/delco%20remy%20starter%2050MT-24V_pc_sm.jpg
> > That is a monster starter motor, designed for 20L+ engines!!!
> >
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

I found a few graphs like this:
http://homepages.which.net/~paul.hills/Motors/CurrentTorqueGraph.gif
which is an Iskra 900watt starter motor.

looks like it would be around 1/5 the torque of an ADC 6.7" and with 
added inefficiencies it wont be a sprinter but I think that properly 
motivated it just might be able to give the illusion of normal car 
performance in city driving 

could be a fun experiment to taunt the ICEs with that the ICE needs an 
electric motor to work that could itself drive the car 

Dan

_______________________________________________
For subscription options, see
http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

My un-converted conversion has no compression due to blown valves, and 
it moves pretty fast on the starter in 5th gear with a freshly charged 
battery. It goes about 300 ft before I have to charge the battery 
again.  I think I'll be happier with the Warp 9, though.  



> Dan Frederiksen wrote:
> > I found a few graphs like this:
> > http://homepages.which.net/~paul.hills/Motors/CurrentTorqueGraph.gif
> > which is an Iskra 900watt starter motor.
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

I suppose I'll sound like Yet Another Naysayer, but an ICE starter has even 
less durability than the Prius motor previously proposed. 

ICEs are built to be as cheap as possible. How likely do you think it is 
that the manufacturer would design a starter that would outlast the car? 
The starter is designed to operate for a just few seconds at a time, and 
rather infrequently. Its usable lifetime is measured in tens of hours, even 
when used normally. 

Suppose one starts his ICE twice an hour during an 8 hour day (pretty 
typical use for a salesman's car, for example). Let's say each start 
requires the starter to operate for 3 seconds. Our salesman friend logs 
20,000 miles per year, and his ICE lasts 10 years - not bad for a machine 
with the complexity of an ICE.

So, in its lifetime (assuming the starter was never replaced), the ICE has 
started 5 * 8 * 2 * 52 * 10 times (41600 times) for a total lifetime starter 
use of 41600 * 3 / 3600, or about 35 hours. 

In an EV, 35 hours of operation at 45mph would represent about 1600 miles - 
yes, one thousand six hundred miles. Not much of a motor lifetime.

And that's without considering the fact that the ICE's starter normally 
operates for a few seconds, then has 30 minutes to cool down. Experience 
has shown that most ICE starters will burn out after a few hours (or even 
minutes) of continous operation.

But if anyone here is sold on the idea, by all means, go ahead and try it. 
Let us know how it works out.

David Roden
EVDL Administrator
http://www.evdl.org/


_______________________________________________
For subscription options, see
http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Dan,
My wife's Nissan Sentra (on the ferry trip) the speedo doesn't register until 5mph and it didn't even budge off the stop. I figure it was going maybe 1mph if not less. That was in 1st gear, but I wouldn't load it more than that. I still needed it to start the car later.

Starter motors are not rated for continuous duty, ADC 6.7" motors are. You may not run a 6.7" in 5th gear on a car, but you could start off in 1st, and shift up through them at speeds. Using starter motors for a conversion on a car is a losing proposition if you want any range or life from the motor. Bad idea all the way around. I think the best you could do with that idea is to find a pinion gear for a 6.7" that you could mount in the original starter motor location.

Mike

----- Original Message -----
From: Dan Frederiksen <[email protected]>
Date: Friday, January 11, 2008 11:03 am
Subject: Re: [EVDL] crazy super budget EV conversion
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <[email protected]>

> I found a few graphs like this:
> http://homepages.which.net/~paul.hills/Motors/CurrentTorqueGraph.gif
> which is an Iskra 900watt starter motor.
> 
> looks like it would be around 1/5 the torque of an ADC 6.7" and 
> with 
> added inefficiencies it wont be a sprinter but I think that 
> properly 
> motivated it just might be able to give the illusion of normal car 
> performance in city driving 
> 
> could be a fun experiment to taunt the ICEs with that the ICE needs 
> an 
> electric motor to work that could itself drive the car 
> 
> Dan
> 
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
> 

_______________________________________________
For subscription options, see
http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Here's one to consider....four smaller motors driving a common shaft.

http://www.knoedler-getriebe.de/eng/produkte/innovation/kompaktgetriebe.htm

of course this concept would need to be adapted to vehicles...
_____________________________________________________________
Click here for free info on prostate cancer prevention and treatment!
http://thirdpartyoffers.netzero.net/TGL2221/fc/Ioyw6i4un2CCri7IUQr7BVUrgFIqiQKc4PgjbNdGPQaxFuXtC5RDUj/



_______________________________________________
For subscription options, see
http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

I took a starter years ago to run an on board air compressor for a 4x4.
I used a honda starter because they were a little better effiency, but I
took it apart and installed bearings. Starters often just have bushings!

It worked but got hot enough to burn off the fingerprints the first time
I used it.

_______________________________________________
For subscription options, see
http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

I would of more impressed if he had said to replace the head with large
solenoids and used the distributer to fire them.

_______________________________________________
For subscription options, see
http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Hey all

I see you guys talking about using starter motors and
well as a motor guy (and if you want my opinion) you
couldn't use a crappier motor (I don't care what your
budget is). Sure you could install bearings (as most
use bushings) but you'd still end up with a motor that
would run super hot. 

Anyway, I don't care where you live, there has got to
be a better "cheap" motor core to be found. FWIW I
hate starters and they are the only DC motor I won't
do, LMAO, hell I don't even do my own (If I don't have
to, lol). Now if you took one of the big truck
starters and put it in a pocketbike for 1/8th mile,
that might make a perfect application for a starter
but other than that it'll be mostly money and time
wasted except for the lumps you take during the
learning curve.

Cya
Jim Husted
Hi-Torque Electric


____________________________________________________________________________________
Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page. 
http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs

_______________________________________________
For subscription options, see
http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

it seems most miss the spirit of the suggestion. it was not meant as a 
nice polished solution and I have no doubt that it's bad for several 
reasons but the suggestion does have the significant advantage of not 
needing any fabrication or real assembly so if you have a junker 
somewhere and on a really tight budget it might be a way to get 
something EV running even though it would never be practical for 
anything. the thing is you could even do it with 4 half dead car 
batteries and a on off contacter controller and have it running in a few 
hours. for that home baked EV grin or a little encouragement before 
taking the big step buying a new motor and having motor adapter made etc 
etc.

it's possible there are other possible compromises where you can reuse 
the part of the engine that makes up an adapter to the gearbox for those 
that couldn't otherwise get an adapter made. it might not be perfect but 
neither is a clutchless conversion. it could be perfect for someone.

Dan

_______________________________________________
For subscription options, see
http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Someone once mentioned (and maybe built one that way) to just cut the last two inches off the engine block and use that as an adaptor plate to the tranny. You could drill you motor mount holes right through it if you could get the inside wall all ground flat. I'm sure there could be all sorts of refinements to this process, if nothing more than a mind exercise. But hey, we don't have to reinvent this. There are motor mounts pre-made or at least templates you could use to fab one up pretty cheap. Maybe build an adaptor plate that you could line the whole circumference of the ring gear on the flywheel with ... starter motors ;-)

----- Original Message -----
From: Dan Frederiksen <[email protected]>
Date: Friday, January 11, 2008 10:22 pm
Subject: Re: [EVDL] crazy super budget EV conversion
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <[email protected]>

> it seems most miss the spirit of the suggestion. it was not meant 
> as a 
> nice polished solution and I have no doubt that it's bad for 
> several 
> reasons but the suggestion does have the significant advantage of 
> not 
> needing any fabrication or real assembly so if you have a junker 
> somewhere and on a really tight budget it might be a way to get 
> something EV running even though it would never be practical for 
> anything. the thing is you could even do it with 4 half dead car 
> batteries and a on off contacter controller and have it running in 
> a few 
> hours. for that home baked EV grin or a little encouragement 
> before 
> taking the big step buying a new motor and having motor adapter 
> made etc 
> etc.
> 
> it's possible there are other possible compromises where you can 
> reuse 
> the part of the engine that makes up an adapter to the gearbox for 
> those 
> that couldn't otherwise get an adapter made. it might not be 
> perfect but 
> neither is a clutchless conversion. it could be perfect for someone.
> 
> Dan
> 
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
> 

_______________________________________________
For subscription options, see
http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev


----------

