# [EVDL] 100 miles per charge lead acid EVs for the other 15% of the world



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)
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----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)
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----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> On 17 Aug 2008 at 21:07, AMPrentice wrote:
> 
> > For many the idea of 100 miles per charge with lead acid and
> > normal driving is a tall summit ...
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

how about normal cars without additions like pusher trailers?

-----
Except from himself and other fellow men, 
Man is the least endangered of all species. - Me
-- 
View this message in context: http://www.nabble.com/100-miles-per-charge-lead-acid-EVs-for-the-other-15--of-the-world-tp19025792p19028323.html
Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

_______________________________________________
General EVDL support: http://evdl.org/help/
Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
Archives: http://evdl.org/archive/
Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

how about normal cars without additions like pusher trailers?
It would be interesting to find some more.

-----
Except from himself and other fellow men, 
Man is the least endangered of all species. - Me
-- 
View this message in context: http://www.nabble.com/100-miles-per-charge-lead-acid-EVs-for-the-other-15--of-the-world-tp19025792p19028323.html
Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

_______________________________________________
General EVDL support: http://evdl.org/help/
Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
Archives: http://evdl.org/archive/
Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Sorry if this is a dumb question, but what defines "100 miles on a single charge"? Are we depleting the batteries to the point of no movement and battery destruction or are we running 100 miles in a sustainable manner? Specifically, what level of charge is the pack at at the 100 mile mark? It would seem that you can claim any figure you want as long as the car is moving.... A start at the top of the continental divide might yield a long run, but meaningless for comparison. Is there a standard, if not there should be. Help me out here please.
Bob Polgreen







-----Original Message-----
From: AMPrentice <[email protected]>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Mon, 18 Aug 2008 4:33 am
Subject: Re: [EVDL] 100 miles per charge lead acid EVs for the other 15% of the world











how about normal cars without additions like pusher trailers?
It would be interesting to find some more.

-----
Except from himself and other fellow men, 
Man is the least endangered of all species. - Me
-- 
View this message in context: http://www.nabble.com/100-miles-per-charge-lead-acid-EVs-for-the-other-15--of-the-world-tp19025792p19028323.html
Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at 
Nabble.com.

_______________________________________________
General EVDL support: http://evdl.org/help/
Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
Archives: http://evdl.org/archive/
Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev






_______________________________________________
General EVDL support: http://evdl.org/help/
Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
Archives: http://evdl.org/archive/
Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Bob Polgreen wrote:
> > Sorry if this is a dumb question, but what defines "100 miles on a single charge"? Are we depleting the batteries to the point of no movement and battery destruction or are we running 100 miles in a sustainable manner? Specifically, what level of charge is the pack at at the 100 mile mark? It would seem that you can claim any figure you want as long as the car is moving.... A start at the top of the continental divide might yield a long run, but meaningless for comparison. Is there a standard, if not there should be. Help me out here please.
> 
> It would be nice if there could be a standard, but real world numbers
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)
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----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

All engineering fields have standard day conditions and they are normally
something like 59 degrees F calm wind 0% humidity, Sea level and 29.92
inches of Mercury. These conditions never actually occur during testing so
you correct for it mathmatically. For car's it is probably very similar and
they include level ground with some form of friction coeffient. Of course
that only tells part of the story because elevation change is a big deal.
Of course driving style and depth of discharge (or really number of cycles
at that range) has as much of an impact as anyting else.

It would be very hard for us generally as a community to always relate back
to standard conditions but with an altimeter, thermometer and a wind speed
measurement device we could take a crack at it.

-----Original Message-----
From: Mike Chancey [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: Monday, August 18, 2008 6:09 AM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] 100 miles per charge lead acid EVs for the other 15%
of the world




> Bob Polgreen wrote:
> > Sorry if this is a dumb question, but what defines "100 miles on a single
> charge"? Are we depleting the batteries to the point of no movement and
> battery destruction or are we running 100 miles in a sustainable manner?
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

I like your Vulcan humor 

-----
Except from himself and other fellow men, 
Man is the least endangered of all species. - Me
-- 
View this message in context: http://www.nabble.com/100-miles-per-charge-lead-acid-EVs-for-the-other-15--of-the-world-tp19025792p19032735.html
Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

_______________________________________________
General EVDL support: http://evdl.org/help/
Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
Archives: http://evdl.org/archive/
Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

I like the Vulcan humor :teeth:

-----
Except from himself and other fellow men, 
Man is the least endangered of all species. - Me
-- 
View this message in context: http://www.nabble.com/100-miles-per-charge-lead-acid-EVs-for-the-other-15--of-the-world-tp19025792p19032735.html
Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

_______________________________________________
General EVDL support: http://evdl.org/help/
Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
Archives: http://evdl.org/archive/
Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Red Beastie is a classic example of a "lead sled." This is a perfectly 
reasonable and viable way to get long range with an EV. If you can achieve 
50% or more of your vehicle weight in lead, you start to get into remarkable 
range. The RB has 40 golf car batteries (~2500lb) in a 5260lb vehicle.

A more elegant way to accomplish this, and one that's less costly in terms 
of ongoing per-distance-unit operating cost, is to make the glider as light 
as possible. Then perhaps 50% lead means, say, 16 or 20 golf car batteries 
instead of 40. That's what the Sunrise II and Freedom EV projects are all 
about. See the archive for more information if you're not familiar with 
them.

Another approach is to use more advanced batteries with higher specific 
energy, such as NiCd, NiMH, or lithium.

If you really want range, do both. For example, ever 10 years ago, Axel 
Krause of Brusa drove his lightweight Mini-Evergreen (fitted with Saft NiCd 
batteries rated ~18kWh) over the Alps to a business meeting, charged at the 
meeting, and drove back. That's 220km each way -- 136 miles.

http://www.brusa.biz/news/news.php?l_sel=2&idm=4&idk=49

High battery weight ratio is more difficult to achieve, but not impossible, 
in a traditional conversion. Some examples of relatively light steelbodied 
cars are the Karmann Ghia, Porsche 914, Fiat 850 Spyder, and early (mid-80s) 
Chevrolet Sprint / Suzuki Forsa. (Interesting that all these are relatively 
OLD vehicles.) If memory serves, all of these gliders have been made into 
long range EVs at one time or another, though I'm not sure how many of them 
have broken 100mi.

Details make the difference, too. As someone else pointed out, when losses 
are already low, small improvements make more difference, and they add up. 

Use a high efficiency drive with regenerative braking. Fit very low rolling 
resistance tires. Put synthetic grease in the wheel bearings and light oil 
in the transaxle. Modify the brakes to pull the pads completely off the 
rotors. Set the front suspension toe to zero. Remove all the sound 
absorption material and other extraneous mass from the body. Add a belly 
pan and other aero mods.

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
EVDL Information: http://www.evdl.org/help/
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = 
Note: mail sent to "evpost" or "etpost" addresses will not 
reach me. To send a private message, please obtain my 
email address from the webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ .
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =


_______________________________________________
General EVDL support: http://evdl.org/help/
Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
Archives: http://evdl.org/archive/
Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> EVDL Administrator wrote:
> ...
> > Some examples of relatively light steelbodied
> > cars are the Karmann Ghia, Porsche 914, Fiat 850 Spyder, and early (mid-80s)
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Bob Polgreen [email protected] wrote:
> 
> > Sorry if this is a dumb question, but what defines "100 miles on a single charge"? Are we depleting the batteries to the point of no movement and battery destruction or are we running 100 miles in a sustainable manner?
> >
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Jeff,
You are right of course about the difficulty of accurate measurement. All measurement is imprecise in some manner or another, But a shared definition is needed to communicate clearly. I would have loved to have such a definition to weigh the veracity of the many claims for performance made by vendors and converters of EV's while I was deciding to
do my project. A standard statement of " range of 35 miles at 50 mph, flat and level, batteries depleted to 50%" would be helpful. It would give a standard of comparison, which while imprecise, is far more useful than " range = 45 miles." Such terms need to be used if only to avoid the type of hucksterism that Lee H. refers to in his post. Thanks to all who replied to my question, it all helps.
Bob Polgreen








-----Original Message-----
From: Jeff Miller <[email protected]>
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <[email protected]>
Sent: Mon, 18 Aug 2008 9:40 am
Subject: Re: [EVDL] 100 miles per charge lead acid EVs for the other 15% of the world










All engineering fields have standard day conditions and they are normally
something like 59 degrees F calm wind 0% humidity, Sea level and 29.92
inches of Mercury. These conditions never actually occur during testing so
you correct for it mathmatically. For car's it is probably very similar and
they include level ground with some form of friction coeffient. Of course
that only tells part of the story because elevation change is a big deal.
Of course driving style and depth of discharge (or really number of cycles
at that range) has as much of an impact as anyting else.

It would be very hard for us generally as a community to always relate back
to standard conditions but with an altimeter, thermometer and a wind speed
measurement device we could take a crack at it.

-----Original Message-----
From: Mike Chancey [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: Monday, August 18, 2008 6:09 AM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] 100 miles per charge lead acid EVs for the other 15%
of the world




> Bob Polgreen wrote:
> > Sorry if this is a dumb question, but what defines "100 miles on a single
> charge"? Are we depleting the batteries to the point of no movement and
> battery destruction or are we running 100 miles in a sustainable manner?
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> On 18 Aug 2008 at 20:14, [email protected] wrote:
> 
> > a shared definition is needed to communicate clearly.
> 
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

It all helps otherwise us Amprentices just ask take up more kylobites
and wasted time asking and wondering whats possible and what isnt.
The RB is a beauty and the old model civic seems to be a good little
candidate for many of us. 2 opposite extreme samples.
One with double the lead, space and handiman purposes.
One with halve the lead, compact for commuters.
Every household should have them.

-----
Except from himself and other fellow men, 
Man is the least endangered of all species. - Me
-- 
View this message in context: http://www.nabble.com/100-miles-per-charge-lead-acid-EVs-for-the-other-15--of-the-world-tp19025792p19043816.html
Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

_______________________________________________
General EVDL support: http://evdl.org/help/
Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
Archives: http://evdl.org/archive/
Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

>
> Sorry if this is a dumb question, but what defines "100 miles on a single charge"? Are we depleting the batteries to the point of no movement and battery destruction or are we running 100 miles in a sustainable manner? Specifically, what level of charge is the pack at at the 100 mile mark? It would seem that you can claim any figure you want as long as the car is moving.... A start at the top of the continental divide might yield a long run, but meaningless for comparison. Is there a standard, if not there should be. Help me out here please.
> Bob Polgreen

Id say if it is lead, the standard is 80% DOD. Which is ok for the
occasional 100 mile trip
unfortunantly, if you were going to do this daily, 50% dod is max for
reasonable battery life.

I suppose as we entertain alternate chemistries, one benefit is the
ability to escape this somewhat.
For LiFePo4, 80% DOD is less of a problem on a daily basis. Sag doesn't
increase as much so amperge doesn't need to increase as the SOC drops.
I think overcharging is more of a worry with LiFePo4 so maybe best to
run 80%DOD to 5% DOD daily.
Nicad can be taken down to 90% DOD without issue (flooded, sintered plate)

I recently talked to people who want to convert a car and the consensus
is a range extending generator for the occasional long trips.
Pushers scare people because of potential handling issues

_______________________________________________
General EVDL support: http://evdl.org/help/
Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
Archives: http://evdl.org/archive/
Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Mike Chancey wrote:
> 
> > It would be nice if there could be a standard, but real world numbers
> > just don't work that way. Terrain, driving techniques, weather, and
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

<snip>
> As with most things in the US, many people think they are smarter than
> anyone before and choose to ignore established standards to invent
> their own. There is no controlling body preventing or regulating
> this, and the outcome is zillion of useless "standards".
> It's a free country, we're free to ignore what makes sense, you know.
>
> Victor.

Well Said! 
I always say the nice thing about standards is that there are so many
to choose from.

_______________________________________________
General EVDL support: http://evdl.org/help/
Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
Archives: http://evdl.org/archive/
Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Victor truly has a metric mind.




> Jeff Shanab wrote:
> 
> > <snip>
> >> As with most things in the US, many people think they are smarter
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

On the standards definition (if one were to be developed for this field)
number of cycles at that distance would have to be part of the rating. For
example
Car XYZ123 can go
123 miles at standard conditions 1 time
82 miles at standard conditions 100 times
40 miles at standard conditions 1000 times

or provide a nice little curve so the potential buyers can find their
commute on the graph correct for conditions over their commute and determine
how long before they will have to buy batteries. Standard conditions would
have to define speed. This would allow people to choose based on the depth
of their wallet what course they would choose.

The correction would be the hard part but if you had standard day based
information it would be a much more reliable way of determining what
performance to expect. Interestingly enough if you found a street map
program with elevation linked into it you could route the trip, check the
traffic information, the elevation changes and then more accurately
determine the expected life of the pack.

Enjoy!
Jeff

-----Original Message-----
From: Jeff Shanab [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: Tuesday, August 19, 2008 7:30 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [EVDL] 100 miles per charge lead acid EVs for the other 15%
of the world


>
> Sorry if this is a dumb question, but what defines "100 miles on a single
charge"? Are we depleting the batteries to the point of no movement and
battery destruction or are we running 100 miles in a sustainable manner?
Specifically, what level of charge is the pack at at the 100 mile mark? It
would seem that you can claim any figure you want as long as the car is
moving.... A start at the top of the continental divide might yield a long
run, but meaningless for comparison. Is there a standard, if not there
should be. Help me out here please.
> Bob Polgreen

Id say if it is lead, the standard is 80% DOD. Which is ok for the
occasional 100 mile trip
unfortunantly, if you were going to do this daily, 50% dod is max for
reasonable battery life.

I suppose as we entertain alternate chemistries, one benefit is the
ability to escape this somewhat.
For LiFePo4, 80% DOD is less of a problem on a daily basis. Sag doesn't
increase as much so amperge doesn't need to increase as the SOC drops.
I think overcharging is more of a worry with LiFePo4 so maybe best to
run 80%DOD to 5% DOD daily.
Nicad can be taken down to 90% DOD without issue (flooded, sintered plate)

I recently talked to people who want to convert a car and the consensus
is a range extending generator for the occasional long trips.
Pushers scare people because of potential handling issues

_______________________________________________
General EVDL support: http://evdl.org/help/
Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
Archives: http://evdl.org/archive/
Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev



_______________________________________________
General EVDL support: http://evdl.org/help/
Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
Archives: http://evdl.org/archive/
Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Jeff Miller wrote:
> > Interestingly enough if you found a street map
> > program with elevation linked into it you could route the trip, check the
> > traffic information, the elevation changes and then more accurately
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

How about a simple standard. Hook up your SOC, Charge your battery 
pack to full. Take a drive at 45 mph with a couple stop and goes and 
drive until you reach the half way point on your SOC meter. That is 
your safe distance. Go faster and you decrease that distance and if 
you go slower you increase it. Or you can do the same at the speed 
you'd normally need to drive to and from work and determine your safe 
driving distance at 50 SOC on the meter. Or you can just fill up and 
drive until you reach lets say to 20 percent left and fill up again. 
Drive it again and do it again and do this a bunch of times to get a 
good average of your driving distance and driving style. This will 
give you a better indication of your true range per charge. I do the 
same with my TDI and consistently get 46 to 48 mpg. Or near 700 miles 
per fill up. The exact same can be done with the EV. Since each person 
drives different and each conversion is different no one can claim a 
standard but a standard of figuring out your personal range exists. 
Fill up, Drive, Record and do it over and over to get a good average. 
That is a standard all can use. Does not matter if you decide on 80% 
discharge or 50% discharge. I'd almost bet it will come out about the 
same. Each conversion being different yields different results. That 
is what we are seeing. He may in fact be getting what he claims but 
only a consistent reliable way of recording will prove what it really 
does. I'd say he gets less. I got less than I thought with my TDI but 
I at least know it is consistent at 46 to 48 MPG. There is no refuting 
these results. 3 years and every fill up I record my mileage and fuel 
consumption. Do the same with your ev and no one can refute your 
claim. Back up your claim with proof.


Pete : )

_______________________________________________
General EVDL support: http://evdl.org/help/
Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
Archives: http://evdl.org/archive/
Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Roger Heuckeroth wrote:
> Victor truly has a metric mind.

I sure do, but inability of standardization organization
to control or enforce them (or rather lack of such organization)
has nothing to do with this. If I'd think in inches and gallons,
identical notion would still hold true.

I recall buying firewood last year; guy came with a truck
and ask how many cords (??) of wood do I need.

It took me a while to google what "cord of wood" is, seem every
industry invents own units. ANyway the guy came and I asked
why "cords" don't we have cubic feet or cubic yards already?

He said who tha f.. cares, we do as we [timber industry?] choose
and see fit - do you want wood or not?...

Victor

> 
>


> Jeff Shanab wrote:
> >
> >> <snip>
> >>> As with most things in the US, many people think they are smarter
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Metric Mind <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> >Roger Heuckeroth wrote:
> >> Victor truly has a metric mind.
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Neon John <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> > Oh, before I step off my soapbox, remember when the metric advocates claimed
> > that changing over would make things simpler, with far fewer units? Really?
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

On Mon, 25 Aug 2008 15:39:54 +0100, "Evan Tuer" <[email protected]> wrote:

>On Mon, Aug 25, 2008 at 3:00 PM, Neon John <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> Oh, before I step off my soapbox, remember when the metric advocates claimed
>> that changing over would make things simpler, with far fewer units? Really?
>> Consider pressure. We have bar, mm of mercury, kg/m^2, pascal and tonne/m^2.
>> That's just off the top of my head. I think I've seen a pressure unit
>> involving newtons too. AAAAEEEEEEeeeeeeee.....!!!!
>
>Whuh?
>A pascal IS 1 N/m^2. A Bar is a common engineering term meaning 100kPa.

You prove my point. A Bar was supposed to be one standard atmosphere but then
the crazy SI guys got hold of it and now it's not. It's 1.01 standard
atmospheres. Ahhh, nothing like consistency! 

Problem is, in old pre-SI-debacle texts, bar and atm were used
interchangeably. You can't just read a text and take away solid facts. You
have to know when the text was written relative to SI meddling and whether the
author had been assimilated yet. That is the polar antithesis of what
scientific and engineering documentation is about - expressing things
precisely and removing ambiguities.

Doesn't matter much when we're talking about the 6.9 Bar (100 psi) pressure
that a home air compressor can make but it DOES matter if we're talking about
a 10,000 bar press!

Even the lowly volt couldn't be left alone. Its definition got changed
sometime in, I think, the 60s. Someone like me who tinkers with old test
equipment has to keep THAT in mind too.

>
>I don't think you'll run into a Torr (mm of mercury) unless you work
>in some highly advanced field of Physics, in which case you can
>probably cope.. But I agree, that is an odd one.

Torr? It's been around for a century, at least. Same thing as mm of mercury.
The Torr is the standard unit of pressure measure in the rather ordinary
fields of neon sign making and cold cathode lighting, along with the micron.
Easier to say than a milliTorr. Come to think of it, I think that I did
occasionally use the Torr in connection with my highly advanced field of
physics - nuclear instrumentation - but more often, we used mm of mercury.

John
--
John De Armond
See my website for my current email address
http://www.neon-john.com
http://www.johndearmond.com <-- best little blog on the net!
Tellico Plains, Occupied TN
There is much pleasure in useless knowledge. ?Bertrand Russell

_______________________________________________
General EVDL support: http://evdl.org/help/
Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
Archives: http://evdl.org/archive/
Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev


----------

