# LiFeBATT UK - Promotional Elecrtric Sports Car Project



## LiFeBATT_UK (Jun 2, 2008)

Hi All,

I have been an electric vehicle enthusiast for several years, working on Scooters and Cycles. Last year I became the UK and Southern Europe distributor for LiFeBATT LiFePO4 battery systems, a dream job really.

Anyway the point of this post is that we are nearly finished building our promotional vehicle. It's been developed in conjunction with Stuart Mills of Mills Extreme Vehicles who designed the chassis and body originally for ICE. I convinced Stuart it would be better as electric and it became my responsibility to develop the drive train, including LiFeBATT power of course.

Here is a link to the build story on my website http://www.lifebatt.co.uk/r2/index.html and I look forward to discussing my project with you all.

Kind regards,

Ian


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## SuperChuck_A11 (May 29, 2008)

Nice project I'm jealous.


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## LiFeBATT_UK (Jun 2, 2008)

Unfortunately the vehicles is 170 miles away and we only get one or two days a month to work on it. When it's road legal in July, we will do lots of video here is a quick clip taken by Stuart last week: http://www.megavideo.com/?v=IBXYV3U2

If you click on the thumbnails they open up much larger. I will try and add more photos too. 

Cheers,

Ian


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## LiFeBATT_UK (Jun 2, 2008)

Top speed isn't much of a consideration but over 100mph if we get the actuator working on 3rd and 4th gear. Range, if driven conservatively around town, I would guess to be about 30 to 35 miles from our 7.2kWh pack, to 100% DOD.


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## LiFeBATT_UK (Jun 2, 2008)

On this vehicle I am expecting an average energy consumption of approx 250Wh per mile, so to do 50 miles we would need 12.5kWh but I would add a further 10% to be in the safe side, to take into account my heavy right foot, so 14kWh.

Price depends on local import duties and taxes. The global distribution network retail price is the same as that posted on the LiFeBATT.com website, but including local taxes and rate of exchange. In the UK we add 5% for import duty, 17.5% VAT and covert at a rate of USD1.95 to £1.00.

The US cost per kWh is USD2,083. In the UK, with import duty, VAT and ROE, that's approx £1,400 per kWh. You will need to contact your local supplier for an accurate quotation. Details of who your local supplier is can be found here: http://www.lifebatt.com/contactus.html

Each local distributor is the sales team for our factory in Taiwan, in that location. LiFeBATT systems cannot be ordered from the factory in order to save money, when you talk to your local distributor, you are effectively talking to the factory and getting the best price available in your location.
Also, all warranty issues are handled, locally, by the person you purchased your system from.

I hope this clarifies any issues over price and who we are as a business, I realise there is concern about the LiFePO4 market and the quality of cells and systems available. All I can say is let us prove it, we work directly with Phostech, the patent holder, to produce a high quality, high performance and long lived cell.

I'll now get off my 'soap box'.


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## LiFeBATT_UK (Jun 2, 2008)

Unfortunately your maths is correct.

This is the problem, although we sell to the retail market, the product isn't at a price that is attractive yet to the general 'DIY conversion' public. Our main customers are OEM's and their volumes over the next year or two will bring the price down to a level that the consumer finds attractive.

Our cells only become cost effective, at present, if you will be doing a lot of miles...... Here is a scenario of a recent customer, for example they have a delivery vehicle doing 20,000 miles a year that's approx 75 miles a day, 5 days a week, 52 weeks a year, following a predefined route each day. 

In a delivery vehicle you are using maybe 500Wh per mile so you need 37.5kWh of energy during the day. But the driver takes half an hour for lunch. We can get an 85 to 90% charge in half an hour so the battery pack is only 20kWh and the delivery vehicle owner has a fast charger stationed out on his normal route.

So this is two cycles a day, 260 days a year, 520 cycles per year and with a life expectancy of over 4,000 cycles, that pack will last maybe 7+ years and still be operating, just at reduced capacity. So, US$41,660 for a battery pack that lasts 140,000+ miles, that is cost effective.

Lead Acid is not my thing, but I wonder what is would cost or if it was even possible to do this duty cycle in LA?


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## LiFeBATT_UK (Jun 2, 2008)

Good quality, properly licensed LiFePO4 is expensive. The development costs are huge. You end up designing not just the cells, but completely new manufacturing processes etc, so the initial capital investment to do all that has to be recouped, over the first few years of sales.

In two or three years time everyone will be able to afford them, but this is new technology. How much did your first PC cost?

All that said I agree it is a lot of money, but keep the faith, the LiFePO4 battery industry will get there eventually.


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## Madmac (Mar 14, 2008)

You can see why Tesla went with the 18650 Lith Ion cells. Looking at the pack specs for the 12 volt 120 AHr. Total weight is 12.5KG. and cost $2730.00. (info from http://www.lifebatt.com/HPSpacks.html )

12*120 is 1440 watt hours. An individual 18650 cell is 3.6V * 2.4AHr =8.64 watthr (you could use the new 2.6 or 2.7 AHr but cost more).
Number of cells to provide same power is 167. Weight of a 18650 varies between 44 and 46 grams to taking high figure total weight is 167*46 =7.4Kg.

Add another 1 Kg for BMS (likely to be half this) and total weight around 8.5Kg or almost a third lighter. Both packs require battery boxes to install in a car adding more weight.

As to cost the 167 18650 cells would have to be $16.3 to cost the same. 2.4AHr cells can be sourced at around $3 nearly one fifth the price, that does not include the BMS though.

On major advantage is the discharge rate. Standard 18650 cells should not be discharged more than 2C continuous. Most makes will tolerate 5C for short periods without decreasing life. Tesla shows that you can get performance without excessive current draw.

Seems LiFePO4 has some way to go before the price is competitive.

Madmac


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## LiFeBATT_UK (Jun 2, 2008)

Hi Madmac,

I would agree LiFePO4 has a long way to go to be competitive with this type of cell, however this isn't a like for like comparison. Li-ion and LiFePO4 are worlds apart in terms of performance, lifespan and safety!

However, in a couple of years none of that will matter and LiFePO4 will get there.

Hi Lexus,

The Toshiba cells look very promising but I believe are maybe 3 or 4 years away from being commercial available.

Cheers,

Ian


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## Madmac (Mar 14, 2008)

" However, in a couple of years none of that will matter and LiFePO4 will get there."

Other technologies will not be standing still. Research papers on a new generation of nano tube based Li-ion show the possible power density increase of up to a factor of 10.

The highest power density will always achieve the largest market as consumer goods like portable PC's and mobile phones drive technology forward.


Currently Li-ion has the advantage in price and power density, LiFePO4 in discharge rate (if needed), How they compare in number of cycles time will tell.


Madmac


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## LiFeBATT_UK (Jun 2, 2008)

You said it yourself "Research papers". It's taken over 10 years to get Dr Goodenough's research to a commercially viable product. It will be another ten years before Nano tubes are here and you can buy them.

Your right though power density is a major factor, but when it comes to EV's, safety will be key. Especially in the US. The first legal case for bodily injury caused by thermal runaway in an EV battery will be very interesting. Only it won't be a LiFePO4 cell that caused it. 

Whilst I am happy to talk about LiFeBATT cells and any other battery technology, does anybody want to talk about the car?


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Lexus said:


> I would not touch lead acid .. do not see the point of making a EV just to pollute the environment later with Lead Acid when their time is up ....
> 
> 
> Hate to be involved in a Accident with a Lead Acid EV and you are trapped with the acid going ever where .. Skin Grafts may be in order with that one


I have to point out that lead is valuable and easily recycled, no pollution necessary. Lead car batteries are one of the most recycled items. Also, no acid spilled with AGM batteries.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

LiFeBATT_UK said:


> Whilst I am happy to talk about LiFeBATT cells and any other battery technology, does anybody want to talk about the car?


Yeah, why the big hole in the front when there is no ICE in the vehicle? Seems as if closing that off and smoothing the front end would give better air flow, and hence speed and range.


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## Madmac (Mar 14, 2008)

"The first legal case for bodily injury caused by thermal runaway in an EV battery will be very interesting. Only it won't be a LiFePO4 cell that caused it."

With the energy density of any battery pack be it Pb Li-ion or LiFePO4 the most likely cause of thermal damage is thru the cabling , connectors, BMS or motor controller faults not the pack itself.

Madmac


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## SuperChuck_A11 (May 29, 2008)

140,000 miles / 8 miles per gallon = 17,500 gallons : 17,500 x $4.00 per gallon = $ 70,000 in fuel. 

that does look good.


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## SuperChuck_A11 (May 29, 2008)

Anybody remember the FLOOD of cases agaisnt Audi (i think), when ppl owuld claim RUNAWAY ??
Every accident after the lil old lady hit the gas pump was blamed on the Audi trans causing RUN AWAY.


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## LiFeBATT_UK (Jun 2, 2008)

Hi JRP3,

LA, according to my local recycling agency, only 85% of the construction of a flooded type is recycleably, sealed are a little better. Most Lithium batteries are in the very high ninety percentile.

Why the big hole? Well it was there originally for the ICE radiator of course, but now, it's there because it just looks MEAN 


Hi Madmac,

All Li-ion cells, Excluding LiFePO4, suffer from thermal runaway properties. This can be caused by short circuit or physical damage during an accident. I agree heat from cabling and controllers is possible but I believe unlikely. Most EV's are fitted with an inertia switch which would cut the power to the pack in the event of a physical shock, or at least the fuse should pop in short order, if a short circuit occurred.

Hi SuperChuck_A11,

In the UK, gas costs close to US$9.60 per US gallon and rising. 30% in the last 9 months I think.

Cheers,

Ian


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## Madmac (Mar 14, 2008)

Of the 1600 or so accidental vehicle fires in London last year 11% were put down to being caused by the battery. That is a single lead acid unit of a normal IC engined vehicle. It is likely the majority of problems with any battery pack will not be the cells inside it, but connections and cables etc.

Details of London fires can be found at http://www.london-fire.gov.uk/lfepa/...08/P-PMC35.rtf

Madmac


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## LiFeBATT_UK (Jun 2, 2008)

Every ICE vehicle I have worked on doesn't have any battery disconnect or protection, most EV's have at least two 'layers' so lets hope EV's won't contribute to those statistics.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

SuperChuck_A11 said:


> 140,000 miles / 8 miles per gallon = 17,500 gallons : 17,500 x $4.00 per gallon = $ 70,000 in fuel.
> 
> that does look good.


8 miles per gallon??? What the heck are you driving, a Sherman Tank? Try it with some real world numbers like at least 20 miles per gallon = 7000 gallons x $4.00 per gallon = $28,000 in fuel. Then remember you do have to pay something for the electricity used to charge your EV.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

LiFeBATT_UK said:


> Hi JRP3,
> 
> LA, according to my local recycling agency, only 85% of the construction of a flooded type is recycleably, sealed are a little better. Most Lithium batteries are in the very high ninety percentile.


"According to the Battery Council International, 97 percent of all battery lead is recycled"
http://www.leadacidbatteryinfo.org/newsdetail.php?id=10


> Why the big hole? Well it was there originally for the ICE radiator of course, but now, it's there because it just looks MEAN


That's what I figured, but honestly I think a front end treatment could be done that looks mean and is actually streamlined and functional. To me an air intake like that on an EV is counterproductive and out of place. Just my opinion, I still like the car though .


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## Manntis (May 22, 2008)

Madmac said:


> Of the 1600 or so accidental vehicle fires in London last year 11% were put down to being caused by the battery. That is a single lead acid unit of a normal IC engined vehicle. It is likely the majority of problems with any battery pack will not be the cells inside it, but connections and cables etc.
> 
> Details of London fires can be found at http://www.london-fire.gov.uk/lfepa/...08/P-PMC35.rtf
> 
> Madmac


Cobalt Oxide lithium ion batteries are a fire hazard when charging. An Electrovaya rep explained it to me thusly, when she was talking about one of Electrovaya's experimental EVs that went up in flames: LiIon batteries with a cobalt oxide chemistry release oxygen molecules as they're charging. Combined with the heat of the batteries while charging and the confined space the oxygen is released into, it doesn't take much - a small spark from a short, for example - to set the whole thing off.


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## SuperChuck_A11 (May 29, 2008)

Madmac said:


> Of the 1600 or so accidental vehicle fires in London last year 11% were put down to being caused by the battery.
> Madmac


100% caused by the Prince of Darkness -Lucas. 

seriously though *1600 *or so ACCIDENTAL fires....not counting soccor riots.


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## Madmac (Mar 14, 2008)

The total number of vehicle fires in the London area was over 4000 with 66% being deliberately started. This was covered in this thread

http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showthread.php/kind-batteries-used-tesla-roadster-14171.html

Madmac


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## Mesuge (Mar 6, 2008)

Madmac said:


> As to cost the 167 18650 cells would have to be $16.3 to cost the same. 2.4AHr cells can be sourced at around $3 nearly one fifth the price, that does not include the BMS though.
> 
> On major advantage is the discharge rate. Standard 18650 cells should not be discharged more than 2C continuous. Most makes will tolerate 5C for short periods without decreasing life. Tesla shows that you can get performance without excessive current draw.
> 
> ...


I know it's a bit apples to oranges comparison due to different chemistry, but look at A123, they have been in the business for some years, the smaller cells eventually made it to diy market and now independent BMS solutions pop up. However, their more advanced (~10Ah) cylindrical cell for PHEV/EVs will be OEM only for many years to come. And guess what, the price has not change that much and this is fairly large company with good funding.

Phostech Li inc. licensed LiFePO4 won't be significantly cheaper (< $.5/Wh) at least for another 10 yrs. 
Now, imagine what the world will look like by that time, peakoil on our chest..


> the future in the diy segment (basic needs EV) is in quality AGM (99.9% pure medical-science grade lead acids)
in combination with high voltage system, easily 500-800x deep cycles. For instance the Panasonic EV product line (successfully used in EV1) seems to leave the current OEM only status and be more available to end consumers.

> it's also possible that some of the better phostech knockoffs in China like ThunderSky will improve QC and get
to ~$.3-4/Wh price range in low-mid range volume orders. Some of TS dealers are wondering why they sell them too many lemons, defects are ~20% of purchased product, but it's simply just the chinese way of doing business, if you go to the factory as regional dealer and kick some ass, make your own QC at the plant than TS is reportedly a reliable battery given shallow 1-2C discharges etc..

> I'm also very interested in the new japanese compact EVs but their own lithium battery production facilities are not that big so still no real mass market before say 2015 and OEM only..


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Mesuge said:


> > the future in the diy segment (basic needs EV) is in quality AGM (99.9% pure medical-science grade lead acids)
> in combination with high voltage system, easily 500-800x deep cycles. For instance the Panasonic EV product line (successfully used in EV1) seems to leave the current OEM only status and be more available to end consumers.


How do the Panasonics compare to the currently available Odysseys? I think the Panasonics were 60 Ah batteries according to Wikipedia which would be similar to the Odyssey PC1700 at 65 Ah.


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## LiFeBATT_UK (Jun 2, 2008)

Mesuge said:


> Phostech Li inc. licensed LiFePO4 won't be significantly cheaper (< $.5/Wh) at least for another 10 yrs.


I think you will see prices become much more competitive in just a few years. LiFeBATT is committed to making our product available to everybody, in terms of price and distribution.




Mesuge said:


> it's also possible that some of the better phostech knockoffs in China like ThunderSky will improve QC and get
> to ~$.3-4/Wh price range in low-mid range volume orders. Some of TS dealers are wondering why they sell them too many lemons, defects are ~20% of purchased product, but it's simply just the chinese way of doing business, if you go to the factory as regional dealer and kick some ass, make your own QC at the plant than TS is reportedly a reliable battery given shallow 1-2C discharges etc..


The more likely scenario is that they will either disappear, or become Phostech licensed and more expensive, but with improved quality. Phostech are serious about protecting their patent and they have the financial backing to take on anyone.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Mesuge said:


> > it's also possible that some of the better phostech knockoffs in China like ThunderSky will improve QC and get
> to ~$.3-4/Wh price range in low-mid range volume orders.


I thought ThunderSky used a different chemistry than Phostech?


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## LiFeBATT_UK (Jun 2, 2008)

Sorry I was reffering specifically to ThunderSky LifePO4. They do indeed produce other Lithium based cells. These would obviously not be covered under Phostech's patent.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Actually I was referring to the LiFePO cells, I thought they were different than the Phostech cells. Are all LiFePO cells subject to the Phostech patent?


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## Manntis (May 22, 2008)

JRP3 said:


> Are all LiFePO cells subject to the Phostech patent?


There are different ways of combining iron, phosphate, and lithium - proportions, mixing techniques, etc.


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## kkjensen (Apr 25, 2008)

Has anyone had any problems with importing non-licensed cells? I've read a few things about people not wanting to order, fearing shipments getting seized at the border but haven't seen anything on this actually happening. Border guards aren't patent police but if you're a redistributor this might pose a bigger problem if you're entire product line might double in price (not that I have any idea what a licensing fee for the cells might actually cost).


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