# Re: [EVDL] DC to DC converter, what no solar?



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] DC to DC converter, what no solar?*

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Lee Hart" <[email protected]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, January 06, 2009 10:43 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] DC to DC converter, what no solar?




> > Richard Thomas wrote:
> >> I use a Sevcon 100watt, 1000 amp DC/DC on my Saturn Conversion...
> >
> > That doesn't sound right. The Sevcons are more like 180w or 300w, which
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] DC to DC converter, what no solar?*

Lee, Thank you for your reply. It was a typo. the sevcon is 300 watts. 
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Lee Hart" <[email protected]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, January 06, 2009 10:43 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] DC to DC converter, what no solar?




> > Richard Thomas wrote:
> >> I use a Sevcon 100watt, 1000 amp DC/DC on my Saturn Conversion...
> >
> > That doesn't sound right. The Sevcons are more like 180w or 300w, which
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] DC to DC converter, what no solar?*



> Richarddthomas wrote:
> 
> > Thanks for your reply. Sorry for the typo. I meant to write
> > 300 watt, 100 amp( 100 amp may not be correct, though) That
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] DC to DC converter, what no solar?*

Even when he buys the best deep-cycle battery,
the setup in his car will kill it in short order
because the DC/DC does not have enough capacity
to keep up with the load when driving, it does not
stay on after having driven to replenish the empty
battery and the voltage set point is too low to
properly recharge it.

Note that the headlights alone will draw 10A and
likely the rest of the lighting again 10A.
Then you have the draw of the controller, any
fans or pumps or wipers or rear window defogger
and you are way over the 22A continuous that
your DC/DC is supplying.

The reason the voltage goes below 9V on high beams
indicates that your battery is not charged - you
can't draw power from an empty battery and the
DC/DC can't keep up.
It may be that repeated deep discharge has killed 
the aux battery, but I get the impression that
it has hardly been used (1 year old) so it may
still be good, provided that it is kept properly
charged.
Setting the DC/DC to deliver between 13.8 and 14V
and keeping it powered with the car off should
help to keep the battery fully charged, you may only
need to water it once a month and disconnect it
from the pack when you do not use the car for many days.

Alternative is to at least double the power and
increase the voltage set point to at least 14V,
preferably more like 14.5V so that the battery will
stay fully charged while driving and it does not 
need to be on when the car is off.

Using two 22A DC/DC converters in parallel should
be no problem if you are now seeing it drop below 9V
then apparently it already has an overcurrent protection
so it is safe to connect two of 22A (with fusing of course)
and keep the aux battery happy.

Success,

Cor van de Water
Director HW & Systems Architecture Group
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
Email: [email protected] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [email protected]
Tel: +1 408 383 7626 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Tel: +91 (040)23117400 x203 XoIP: +31877841130

Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail.
-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On
Behalf Of Roger Stockton
Sent: Wednesday, January 07, 2009 11:07 AM
To: 'Electric Vehicle Discussion List'
Subject: Re: [EVDL] DC to DC converter, what no solar?



> Richarddthomas wrote:
> 
> > Thanks for your reply. Sorry for the typo. I meant to write
> > 300 watt, 100 amp( 100 amp may not be correct, though) That
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] DC to DC converter, what no solar?*



> On 6 Jan 2009 at 23:52, richarddthomas wrote:
> 
> > The DCDC is powered by the keyswitch and remains off when not running the car.
> > This might be why the battery seems weak when I first power up in the morning.
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] DC to DC converter, what no solar?*

I find even if running a alternator and four Iota's 45 amp parallel together 
and if I leave the Iota on all the time, it will boil out the battery if I 
set it at 14.5 volts. Setting it at 13.5 volts, then the 145 amp deep cycle 
battery is not fully charge.

So I remove the Iota's from the accessory battery and have only the Iota's 
going to dedicated 12 volt circuits. Install a alternator that is design to 
charge a deep cycle battery with voltages up to 14.8 volts and can run every 
thing on board holding the voltage at 14.5 volts.

I install a on board 12 volt Shumaker smart charger that works as a 
maintainer for the 12 volt accessory battery which works as a maintainer 
while the main AC is plug in.

Roland


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "EVDL Administrator" <[email protected]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, January 06, 2009 10:01 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] DC to DC converter, what no solar?




> > On 6 Jan 2009 at 23:52, richarddthomas wrote:
> >
> > > The DCDC is powered by the keyswitch and remains off when not running
> > > the car.
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] DC to DC converter, what no solar?*

Thank you David, Roger , Lee, Roland. The level of generosity, spirit of 
cooperation and respect on this list continues to astonish. I am especially 
grateful for the tutilidge, patience and tolerance of those types like 
myself who insist on learning as we go instead of waiting for the optimal 
moment which might never come. Perhaps some day I will stop saying: " I 
don't know what the hell I am doing here, I'm a social worker for crying out 
loud!" I have just begun reading a book entitled "The Tipping Point" by 
Malcolm Gladwell. In reference to the post by Guy about creating a national 
network of 60,000 ev-ers we may be nearing a tipping point here.Gladwell's 
definition of change through "epidemics" includes three things: the actions 
of an individual or a small group of extrodinary individuals, the stickiness 
of an idea: "Winston Tastes good like a cigarette should", "Ev grin";and the 
crerating the proper proper context:, ie we can't wait around while vested 
interests impede our stopping the destruction of the environment for our 
children.

Sounds like the consensus developiing is that my first line of action to 
solve this problem is making the DCDC full time; then failing that, finding 
a deepcycle battery to would fit tocover the times when I need headlights, 
fans etc. all at once.
Thanks again, I'll keep you posted.
Richard
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Roland Wiench" <[email protected]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, January 07, 2009 11:34 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] DC to DC converter, what no solar?


>I find even if running a alternator and four Iota's 45 amp parallel 
>together and if I leave the Iota on all the time, it will boil out the 
>battery if I set it at 14.5 volts. Setting it at 13.5 volts, then the 145 
>amp deep cycle battery is not fully charge.
>
> So I remove the Iota's from the accessory battery and have only the 
> Iota's going to dedicated 12 volt circuits. Install a alternator that is 
> design to charge a deep cycle battery with voltages up to 14.8 volts and 
> can run every thing on board holding the voltage at 14.5 volts.
>
> I install a on board 12 volt Shumaker smart charger that works as a 
> maintainer for the 12 volt accessory battery which works as a maintainer 
> while the main AC is plug in.
>
> Roland
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "EVDL Administrator" <[email protected]>
> To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
> Sent: Tuesday, January 06, 2009 10:01 PM
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] DC to DC converter, what no solar?
>
>


> >> On 6 Jan 2009 at 23:52, richarddthomas wrote:
> >>
> >> > The DCDC is powered by the keyswitch and remains off when not running
> >> > the car.
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] DC to DC converter, what no solar?*

Cor, sorry I missed your email in earlier my response. You may be right 
about the inaderquacy of the DCDC. I will make the cinverter full time first 
to gain info there, then look into a more powerful DC can you recommend any? 
I like the Sevcon because it is very compact and it seems very reliable. If 
I bought an identical 300 watt Sevcon and installed it in parallel what kind 
of output would that provide without frying the battery. I was a thinking 
of powering the headlights with a separate DCDC.
Thanks, Richard
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Cor van de Water" <[email protected]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, January 07, 2009 1:05 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] DC to DC converter, what no solar?


> Even when he buys the best deep-cycle battery,
> the setup in his car will kill it in short order
> because the DC/DC does not have enough capacity
> to keep up with the load when driving, it does not
> stay on after having driven to replenish the empty
> battery and the voltage set point is too low to
> properly recharge it.
>
> Note that the headlights alone will draw 10A and
> likely the rest of the lighting again 10A.
> Then you have the draw of the controller, any
> fans or pumps or wipers or rear window defogger
> and you are way over the 22A continuous that
> your DC/DC is supplying.
>
> The reason the voltage goes below 9V on high beams
> indicates that your battery is not charged - you
> can't draw power from an empty battery and the
> DC/DC can't keep up.
> It may be that repeated deep discharge has killed
> the aux battery, but I get the impression that
> it has hardly been used (1 year old) so it may
> still be good, provided that it is kept properly
> charged.
> Setting the DC/DC to deliver between 13.8 and 14V
> and keeping it powered with the car off should
> help to keep the battery fully charged, you may only
> need to water it once a month and disconnect it
> from the pack when you do not use the car for many days.
>
> Alternative is to at least double the power and
> increase the voltage set point to at least 14V,
> preferably more like 14.5V so that the battery will
> stay fully charged while driving and it does not
> need to be on when the car is off.
>
> Using two 22A DC/DC converters in parallel should
> be no problem if you are now seeing it drop below 9V
> then apparently it already has an overcurrent protection
> so it is safe to connect two of 22A (with fusing of course)
> and keep the aux battery happy.
>
> Success,
>
> Cor van de Water
> Director HW & Systems Architecture Group
> Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
> Email: [email protected] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
> Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [email protected]
> Tel: +1 408 383 7626 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
> Tel: +91 (040)23117400 x203 XoIP: +31877841130
>
> Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail.
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On
> Behalf Of Roger Stockton
> Sent: Wednesday, January 07, 2009 11:07 AM
> To: 'Electric Vehicle Discussion List'
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] DC to DC converter, what no solar?
>


> > Richarddthomas wrote:
> >
> >> Thanks for your reply. Sorry for the typo. I meant to write
> >> 300 watt, 100 amp( 100 amp may not be correct, though) That
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] DC to DC converter, what no solar?*

Based on your updates, I think your present DCC will be OK if you have a 
good accessory battery to buffer its output, and you run the DCC all the 
time to keep that battery charged.

I suggest you test the capacity of your existing battery. Give it a full 
charge with a shop charger. Attach a 25 amp or so load (a few headlamps or 
something similar), and time how long it runs the load until the battery 
falls to 10.5 volts >while under load< (not open-circuit). If it can't run 
that load for an hour without dipping below 10.5v, replace it, and do make 
sure the replacement is a true deep cycle battery.

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] DC to DC converter, what no solar?*



> Cor van de Water wrote:
> 
> > Even when he buys the best deep-cycle battery, the setup in
> > his car will kill it in short order because the DC/DC does
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] DC to DC converter, what no solar?*

Good battery that can sustain headlights on for 90 minutes is the ideal, and 30 to 45 minutes of parking lights and emergency on flasher operation is also required as a standard in several states (California for example) although there is no FMVSS for "lights on" capability.

You can figure the AH needed by measuring AMP between the - post and ground (that way all loads are included)

DC to DC converter should be only used to keep the battery from dropping much below 12 V and not to "recharge" any aux battery that power 12 V systems.

14+V will be incredibly wasteful and will take lot more AMP from traction pack than necessary for 12 V system.

Much over 14.4 V will actually damage (reduce useful life) of almost all batteries unless you also have a sophisticated current monitor/limiter in the system - just way too much un necessary complexity to keep lights on for typical 30 minutes to 1 hour anyway.

And I can second the 10.5 V as the absolute minimum that you should ever run any battery down to based on experience!

Most OEM automotive systems on modern cars will not function properly at 9.8 V and 10 V is usually the design minimum with 16 V max limit before things start to fail due to over voltage.




-----Original Message-----
From: EVDL Administrator <[email protected]>
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <[email protected]>
Sent: Wed, 7 Jan 2009 9:27 am
Subject: Re: [EVDL] DC to DC converter, what no solar?



Based on your updates, I think your present DCC will be OK if you have a 
good accessory battery to buffer its output, and you run the DCC all the 
time to keep that battery charged.

I suggest you test the capacity of your existing battery. Give it a full 
charge with a shop charger. Attach a 25 amp or so load (a few headlamps or 
something similar), and time how long it runs the load until the battery 
falls to 10.5 volts >while under load< (not open-circuit). If it can't run 
that load for an hour without dipping below 10.5v, replace it, and do make 
sure the replacement is a true deep cycle battery.

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
EVDL Information: http://www.evdl.org/help/
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = 
Note: mail sent to "evpost" or "etpost" addresses will not 
reach me. To send a private message, please obtain my 
email address from the webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ .
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =


_______________________________________________
General EVDL support: http://evdl.org/help/
Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
Archives: http://evdl.org/archive/
Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] DC to DC converter, what no solar?*

For people running aux battery with no dc-dc or alternator (charging 
when you charge the pack), Maybe we can take a hint from the road race guys.
They often use a 7 cell battery so the voltage stays up to keep the 
injectors firing fully thru the race.

I have seen it in the summit catalog, but finding it on there website to 
post a link is a waste of time. Maybe they don't do that anymore?

In our case maybe use a 6 and an 8 in series as the aux battery and a 
tweaked charger.


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] DC to DC converter, what no solar?*

I run on a deep cycle 12 volt aux battery. My DC/DC
is wired to the parking lights, and only comes on

when the parking and/or headlights are on. I monitor
the 12 volts and current to see if I should turn

on the parking lights in the daytime for a short
quick charge. It is not needed in my usual 20 mile trip.

The 12 volt charger works whenever the car is 'plugged in'.

John in Sylmar, CA
www.evalbum.com/1749

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] DC to DC converter, what no solar?*



> Jeff Shanab wrote:
> > the road race guys... use a 7 cell battery so the voltage stays up to
> > keep the injectors firing fully thru the race... maybe use a 6v and
> > an 8v in series as the aux battery and a tweaked charger.
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] DC to DC converter, what no solar?*

Roger,
I am using a 55 amp Iota DC/DC. How big a blocking diode do I need? I
know the question sounds stupid, but how much margin do you need for
these things? 55 amps would be cutting it close. Is 100 amp overkill?
Also, does voltage rating matter? I see some 600v diodes available.
Would 20v be enough.

The idea of a relay around a diode to adjust output voltage is clever.
Thanks for your help.
storm
PS Did you guys ever produce a 144v charger?

On Wed, Jan 7, 2009 at 12:36 AM, Roger Stockton <
>
> I would not add a blocking diode to the output of your DC/DC unless you can adjust its output up so that the voltage at the battery remains at least 13.6V after the diode drop. If you can adjust the output of the DC/DC up, then I would place 2 diodes in series between the DC/DC and the 12V battery. Wire a 12V relay so that it comes on with the keyswitch and shorts across one off the diodes. Adjust the DC/DC until you have 13.6-13.8V at the battery with the key off. With the key on, you will now have 14.something volts at the battery with one diode shorted by the relay. This higher voltage with the key on will allow the battery to charge more quickly/fully on those drives where you are not using many accessories, and will keep the lights brighter and the wipers brisker, etc..
>
> Cheers,
>
> Roger.
>
> _______________________________________________
> General EVDL support: http://evdl.org/help/
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>
>



-- 
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/1059
http://stormselectric.blogspot.com/
Storm

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] DC to DC converter, what no solar?*



> storm connors wrote:
> 
> > I am using a 55 amp Iota DC/DC. How big a blocking diode do I
> > need? I know the question sounds stupid, but how much margin
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] DC to DC converter, what no solar?*

Thanks Roger. I also figured out that the "bypass relay" would be
carrying a rather small amount of current since it would be in
parallel with the diode.

How do your chargers handle sub freezing batteries?

Want to sell the spare?
storm



> Roger Stockton <[email protected]> wrote:
> > storm connors wrote:
> >
> >> I am using a 55 amp Iota DC/DC. How big a blocking diode do I
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] DC to DC converter, what no solar?*

I'm using a little Iota 55 and had the same problem. Actually the problem
was worse, my pack only runs a little over 100 volts so I was under the
Iota's input voltage. Dim headlights. Dim instrument lights, etc.

I wired the DC-DC controller to remain on all the time, regardless of
contactor position. I have a separate relay and the ignition switch to
apply that output to the electrical system.

I built an aux battery out of 16 of the A123 cells. I have a bunch of them
anyway, but you can get them from a DeWalt portable drill power pack. I
ganged the cells 4 parallel using some stiff copper strapping, and put it
all in a standard six inch NEMA electrical junction box. Installed some
quarter inch terminals on the box. The whole thing weighs nothing, - maybe
3 lbs or so, and takes up very little space - about the same as a motorcycle
battery. The DC-DC converter charges it when the car is not in use. When
driving, the Iota is of course applied to the car's electric system, but the
10 Ah A123 cell brick, which could in theory put out 100 amps for brief
periods, prevents the brown outs.

Jack Rickard




> Roger Stockton wrote:
> >
> > .
> > This is exactly why my suggestion was (in order):
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] DC to DC converter, what no solar?*

Oh yeah. More BMS. I'll take a quick look at what DeWalt uses and see if I
can gen something up. ;-)
I'll let you know how it turns out....

Jack Rickard





> Bill Dube wrote:
> >
> > Without a BMS, the A123Systems cells will go out of balance and will
> > fail rather quickly.
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] DC to DC converter, what no solar?*



> storm connors wrote:
> >> I am using a 55 amp Iota DC/DC. How big a blocking diode do I need?
> >> Is 100 amp overkill?
> 
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] DC to DC converter, what no solar?*

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biBvcHRpb25zOiBodHRwOi8vbGlzdHMuc2pzdS5lZHUvbWFpbG1hbi9saXN0aW5mby9ldgoK


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] DC to DC converter, what no solar?*



> [email protected] wrote:
> > GU1A100SB
> > Germanium Diode
> > V(RRM)(V) Rep.Pk.Rev. Voltage=28
> ...


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