# PackRat - 1909 Packard Gentlemen's Runabout (Speedster)



## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

*NOTE: The original concept of this project was to build an antique-themed delivery truck, but due to certain circumstances we had to take a different route in the Inhaler Project, and I decided to pursue a simpler speedster concept on the existing reverse trike chassis. Sorry for the confusion**, and **I hope **you'll stick around for the fun! - T**odd * 

Read about the change in direction, here.
Or scroll to Post 22.
 

Now that my car, Schism, is firmly on its way, and also no longer suitable for use as a teaching tool, we needed a new project to mentor Team Inhaler's next round of interns and volunteers; expected from spring break through the summer. I don't quite know how but I landed on the idea for a miniature, single-seater, reverse trike, antique-themed, delivery van!  It will serve as a teaching tool, and also as a marketing tool/revenue stream for the non-profit.

Amanda is the Team Captain for this project. Yesterday, we worked on the front suspension design. It's going to be a fabricated, tubular, interpretation of a dropped straight axle front suspension, but with much more adjustment potential, and more artistic flair. I provided the general direction but most of what this axle will be is Amanda's ideas, skills, and work. She is an ME (currently in the process of getting her graduate degree), and will be doing the actual CAD development.

To pave the way for that, I gave her a brief on straight axles; we measured the modern knuckles we'll be using; mocked up the front tires to determine the width; and settled on the basics of the design. We also checked to make sure the single-dually rear wheel idea would fit between the frame rails (yup!







) - which all set the stage for Amanda to take the truck for its first imaginary spin around the block! 







 I don't think the driver is supposed to be having this much fun! Knock it off Amanda, this is serious business! 

























I suppose my assertion that this is "reverse trike" could be questioned, as it will actually have four tires on the ground, with the "single-dually" rear wheel, but it is a reverse trike in spirit.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

*Re: The Inhaler Project's "Ice Cream Truck"*

If the rear tyres are less then a foot apart then they count as a single tyre, over in the UK IIRC.

Nice project BTW, I like it.

When I get my drawing board into the office I will start sketching the ideas for my little truck as I still need to find a use for that 12" motor...


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

*Re: The Inhaler Project's "Ice Cream Truck"*



Woodsmith said:


> ...Nice project BTW, I like it...


Thanks! 






Woodsmith said:


> If the rear tyres are less then a foot apart then they count as a single tyre, over in the UK IIRC...


Works for me! 





Woodsmith said:


> ...When I get my drawing board into the office I will start sketching the ideas for my little truck as I still need to find a use for that 12" motor...


I am really looking forward to seeing that Woody. This project has Woody written all over it - reverse trike, antique truck, and I believe the single-dually rear wheel idea was also stolen from, or at least inspired, by your tow truck ideas!


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

*Re: The Inhaler Project's "Ice Cream Truck"*

I am honoured to have been an influence.

Are the ice creams going in a front box?








Or a back box?











I am after a faster, pneumatic tyred version of Beryl, Arch's work truck. Beryl is only good for about 12-15mph on solid tyres. 








I want 40mph and a load bed that can take 8'x4' sheet materials and 12' long timber (through the headache board and into the cab).


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

*Re: The Inhaler Project's "Ice Cream Truck"*



Woodsmith said:


> I am honoured to have been an influence.
> 
> Are the ice creams going in a front box?
> 
> Or a back box?...


Back box. It's actually going to be an open cargo area. We'll eventually be able to use it for making parts/food runs, and for distributing samples at events. The "Ice Cream" part is mainly because it's fun and catchy to say. Here, in America, the sound of kiddie songs blaring through tinny speakers, and some type of delivery van stuffed full of frozen snacks - the ice cream truck - makes pretty much everyone smile and return to their childhood. It works for almost all ages and across every conceivable cultural aspect, so it's a great marketing angle. Of course we'll have to back that up and throw a cooler full of frozen treats in it occasionally.





The hubbub about electric vehicles being too silent also opens the door for us to play entertaining sound bites and songs in place of engine noise. All those goofy ideas and jokes people have apply here.  Alex especially wants to have galloping horses, which I gagged at the thought of on my race-bred cars, but smile about with this project. Imagine being in an indoor, ballroom, event and hearing horses galloping towards you, only to look up and see an antique little truck full of goodies approaching. 






Woodsmith said:


> ...through the headache board and into the cab).


What the heck is the headache board?! 


Nice pics! I invited the Team to become members here and engage with the DIY community about this project - especially since it will be their *baby*. I hope they do.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

*Re: The Inhaler Project's "Ice Cream Truck"*

Cool, literally!

I think a runaround promotional vehicle is going to be great fun. Something folks can relate to outside of the high speed 'drag/race car' side of things.



toddshotrods said:


> What the heck is the headache board?!


I think that's what they are called in the US.

Headboard in the UK. The strong vertical board at the front of the load bed that stops the load shooting forward and crushing the cab.
I was thinking of a lockable hatch through the board into a closed housing in the cab so that long thin items can be pushed through.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

*Re: The Inhaler Project's "Ice Cream Truck"*



toddshotrods said:


>


We get this a lot over here.







toddshotrods said:


> I invited the Team to become members here and engage with the DIY community about this project - especially since it will be their *baby*. I hope they do.


Welcome team!
Let us know you are part of Todd's projects for that instant warm welcome that we give to everyone regardless of any connection to Todd!


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

*Re: The Inhaler Project's "Ice Cream Truck"*



Woodsmith said:


> ...I think that's what they are called in the US.
> 
> Headboard in the UK. The strong vertical board at the front of the load bed that stops the load shooting forward and crushing the cab...


Gotcha. I don't remember ever hearing that term before, but I could have just been daydreaming when people said it. 






Woodsmith said:


> We get this a lot over here...


Nice.  I hope to visit England, and much of Europe someday.






Woodsmith said:


> ...Welcome team!
> Let us know you are part of Todd's projects for that instant warm welcome that we give to everyone regardless of any connection to Todd!


Haha!  I hope at least one or two of them show up. I'll keep prodding them about it...


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## kennybobby (Aug 10, 2012)

*Headache Rack*

is the term that i've heard used in the trucking business, usually made of metal to stop a shifting load from coming forward thru the cab/rear window... What size tubing is that you used for the rails? Looks plenty stout.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

*Re: Headache Rack*



kennybobby said:


> is the term that i've heard used in the trucking business, usually made of metal to stop a shifting load from coming forward thru the cab/rear window...


I think we're going to have to make a removable headache board for the Ice Cream Truck now.  Maybe it can serve double duty as a "show card"/"menu" at events. I set a few mandatory specs, features, and aesthetic cues, but try to leave them as much freedom as possible. The more I think about it though, this is really a good idea.






kennybobby said:


> ...What size tubing is that you used for the rails? Looks plenty stout...


2x3x.120" mild steel. It's the standard frame of our G-bucket chassis. It's overkill for a lot of applications, but comes in handy for potholes and/or elevated performance.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

*Re: The Inhaler Project's "Ice Cream Truck"*

Amanda finished the model for the front axle today - pretty awesome!  She did it in SolidWorks. It's narrowed about 6.5" from the tightest conventional street rod axle, and designed to use modern knuckles in place of the kingpin setup on older axles. Rod ends screw in the tube ends, and bolt to the knuckle in place of upper and lower balljoints. This gives us camber adjustment, caster (in the radius arms), and modern brakes and bearings; and a reason to experiment. 









While she was finishing up the model for the axle, I cut the 1/4-scale model frame and wheels from some random scrap plastic.









Pretty cool because it's like a scale model kit!  I wish I had a full crew right now because them pulling parts out of these sheets, and building a model would make great pics and video...


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

*Re: The Inhaler Project's "Ice Cream Truck"*

Amanda is working on the 1/4-scale "Stick People", to use for reality checks while the Team develops the Ice Cream Truck with the live model - no more vehicles only Todd can fit in . Today, she gave me a peek at Stick Man!  He's proportionally accurate for an approximately 6ft tall, 200lb-ish, man.










Not to worry Stick Man, you won't be alone - the sticky hot, 5'6" tall, Stick Woman is on the way! 

They'll be either laser or CNC cut, and have articulating shoulders, elbows, hips, and knees, to allow them to sit in the truck to verify bright ideas.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

*Re: The Inhaler Project's "Ice Cream Truck"*

I think I still have my 1/10th scale 'stick man' in profile from my bicycle designing days back in the late 70's!

I made it myself out of cardboard and brass paper fasteners (No, I've never come across any brass paper either...).


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

*Re: The Inhaler Project's "Ice Cream Truck"*



Woodsmith said:


> ...(No, I've never come across any brass paper either...).


Lol! 


I asked Amanda to extend the gusset between the two tubes of the front axle all the way out to the ends, to support the curved upper tube's outer ends better. I gave her full creative, and technical, license on the actual design of that section of the gusset though, allowing her to remove as much weight as she desires, by removing material. She instantly saw the opportunity for more marketing space realizing that she could cut logos in the midst of the webbing... 

Then, I told her that I want to hand (hot) forge those curved ends, with the help of the community workshop's blacksmithing guy. We'll turn straight sections of 1" to accept the threaded bung on the outside, and press into the straight section of tubing on the other end, then work with him to heat and hammer them into (S) shape.

Amanda's is going to engineer and oversee that entire process, from material selection, to machining, to hot forging, to welding, to final heat treating to bring it all together. It will be overkill for this featherweight (especially on the front), low speed, truck's mission in life, but it's great proof, PR, photos, and video, for the Inhaler Project and the Columbus Idea Foundry.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

*Re: The Inhaler Project's "Ice Cream Truck"*

Amanda finished the models for the 1/4-scale people, and sliced them out of .250" blue acrylic yesterday. Next they need drilled and assembled with pins at the joints, and they'll be ready to help us build the model truck. She named them "Slender Man" and "Little Boy"?! 









Meanwhile, our newest Team member, Nic, was in the shop whittling the new gusset Amanda designed, from stainless steel - again, in 1/4-scale, for the model truck.









I am going to cut an aluminum template for forging the axle tubes this week, and might cut the little radius arm/spring brackets with (crown shaped patterns with three holes) on the ShopBot from aluminum - we can braze those. That saves wearing out drill bits and going cross-eyed trying to hand shape those little things.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

*Re: The Inhaler Project's "Ice Cream Truck"*

Sticky situation. I caught these two clowns lounging around, instead of working. Good help is so hard to find... 









The 1/4-scale front axle forging was started last week, and should be finished up and off to welding this week. More to come...


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

*Re: The Inhaler Project's "Ice Cream Truck"*

Columbus was voted one of the seven smartest cities in the world (only US city), and a panel from the organization visited the Columbus Idea Foundry yesterday, at the Mayor's request. They're visiting the seven smart cities, to collect information to pick the winner; the smartest city in the world. Don't ask me what that's really supposed to mean, but hey... 

Sunday Amanda popped the model's wheels out of the sheet, and glued them together, so I decided to set up the model and blue people outside the Inhaler Project's (IP) studio entrance, for a little extra eye candy. The whole thing seems to have been largely ignored (model display and the actual chassis on the fixture), by both Alex (who was presenting IP), and the panel, so I pass it on for your viewing pleasure! 









Maybe they all just need something that looks more like a vehicle? The panel seemed to be pretty fascinated with the Model E and Schism, excited about the fact that high school and college interns did much of the work on Schism, and tickled pink with Scrape - especially when I "fired it up" and silently zipped past them! 

Hopefully, someday, the Ice Cream Truck will bring the same smiles and giggles, when we can play the galloping horses _soundtrack_ and glide through the masses!


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

*Re: The Inhaler Project's "Ice Cream Truck"*

I like the model so far.

What's the plan for the rear suspension?


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

*Re: The Inhaler Project's "Ice Cream Truck"*



Woodsmith said:


> I like the model so far.
> 
> What's the plan for the rear suspension?


Thanks!  It'll be a simple swingarm. As it is, there is about an inch of clearance on either side of the tires, with about that much between them. We could make the side of the swingarm from 1/2" plate, with a beefy fabricated crossmember from the pivot to the front of the tires. Then, simple leaf springs on the frame rails, truck style. That's the simple way - the _Todd_ way would probably be a curved tubular contraption that sweeps up around the frame rails and back in and down to the axle! 

The 2013 Team Inhaler is shaping up to be a big dud . As a result, I am not currently scheduling any Team work sessions, other than Amanda. We're working on plans to make these projects advanced classes for people to take after taking the Columbus Idea Foundry's regular welding, metal fab, machining, woodworking, blacksmithing, and casting, classes. The difference, for me, is there won't be a Team of interns to do the design by committee process. It will likely be me and the other instructors, because we have to have the class curriculum(s) prepared before people pay and show up. That changes things in a big way for me, as I was expecting to just guide the process and make sure the ideas were safe and doable. We'll see how it plays out...


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

*Re: The Inhaler Project's "Ice Cream Truck"*



toddshotrods said:


> Thanks!  It'll be a simple swingarm. As it is, there is about an inch of clearance on either side of the tires, with about that much between them. We could make the side of the swingarm from 1/2" plate, with a beefy fabricated crossmember from the pivot to the front of the tires. Then, simple leaf springs on the frame rails, truck style. That's the simple way -


This sprung to mind!


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

*Re: The Inhaler Project's "Ice Cream Truck"*



Woodsmith said:


> This sprung to mind!


 That just causes all sorts of havoc in my head!


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Long-story short, I think the wood-bodied, antique delivery, Ice Cream Truck project is going to fail, fizzle, die...  It just doesn't look like I am going to have the right Team of interns to make the investment, and the idea to use it as an advanced class project at the Columbus Idea Foundry doesn't add up. So, I am likely to inherit another project - that, of course, I need like I need another hole in my head... 

That sent me on a long mental quest to figure out what _"need"_ it could serve, and what plan of implementation I could devise, that wouldn't be a distraction to what I am already up to my neck in. In my heart, I have been wanting to remove the deadlines and due dates from Schism, and let it naturally evolve as a pure design project. It's working as a marketing tool for my design services, as is, because prospective clients can see my work, tangibly, in a big way. I would really like to see where it goes, if I just let it flow. Scrape is also evolving as a more technical research tool and, even though it doesn't require such high-end efforts, I would still rather not burden it with deadlines.

So the one _"need"_ I do have is for a simple project that _can_ actually meet deadlines, and be in service ASAP. The truck is way too involved, and also gets my creative process too engaged - _i.e._, too much canvas. The simplest form of vehicle is a speedster - they're just a grille, hood, seat, and tank, on chassis. Like Miz's car. I decided to explore the idea (slippery slope):

















I felt *really* comfortable in that seat, but to avoid making the mistake I made with Schism - building a vehicle that I can barely fit in, and thus one that I would have a hard time ever selling - I did a reality check with the model and Slender Man (who is scaled to 6 feet tall). He fits easily. The seat would be a little tight, in real life, but that's something that can be easily changed.


















I was slow to warm up to this whole reverse trike thing, but have become fascinated with it lately. Initially, the narrow, single rear wheel, tadpole, look bothered me; coming from a fat-rear-tired, American, hot rod perspective. I was watching videos of them on YouTube one day, and something just clicked, and I kind of fell in love with the look. Sitting in that little kart seat, looking forward at the two front wheels, being aware of the narrow overall width of the "body", and looking over my shoulder at the single wheel, narrow, rear - it's freakin awesome!  I really love it! 



*Is this going to happen? Possibly, but definitely not definitely, yet.* I need to really think about what it means/involves, and _why_... This is my way of exploring the idea. Notice, the pics have my Bat-T logo, and not the IP logo? If I do decide this is a "go", I will beg Woody to change the subject of the thread, and all of you to help me keep it simple.

The one downside is I probably can't afford to build it as a pure EV. I would likely have to go hybrid, to have reasonable functionality. I would want to be able to use it in all-electric mode as much as possible though, so it wouldn't be a Prius-like micro hybrid, it would be a real PHEV. I would find a used, but running motorcycle, as cheap as possible, and simply graft the drivetrain onto the back of this frame (no single-dually rear wheel), then add the electric drive, via chain, to have reverse and create the hybrid system - like I was going to do with the Fiat concept.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

LOL!

It is where I started out, low, sleek, single seater! 
You'll need a 'honey seat ya know'! 


I know exactly what you mean about the usual reverse trike skinny rear tyre thing. That was what got me over to that fat, spoked wheel on the back of mine and not a front wheel drive 2CV base vehicle. There is something about that look of a fat rear drive wheel(s) on any vehicle.



Just give me a shout when you want the title changed.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Woodsmith said:


> LOL!
> 
> It is where I started out, low, sleek, single seater!...


Ironic, eh?! 





Woodsmith said:


> ...You'll need a 'honey seat ya know'!
> ...


Of course!  I'm thinking about a "rumble seat" in a little splash of body behind the driver's seat, and having her a bit higher and kind of straddling the driver's seat, motorcycle style.





Woodsmith said:


> ...I know exactly what you mean about the usual reverse trike skinny rear tyre thing. That was what got me over to that fat, spoked wheel on the back of mine and not a front wheel drive 2CV base vehicle. There is something about that look of a fat rear drive wheel(s) on any vehicle....


Yup, if I have to go to a narrow motorcycle wheel to get it running quickly, I will leave room for something meatier later. I would, ultimately, like to have the single-dually but I'm concerned it will cost too much and possibly spiral out of control... We'll see.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

How are you doing the dually?

I was thinking about this the other day, pondering the same look as your trike.

I thought about using a lightened truck hub and brake assembly, bolting the dual wheels on (probably Ford Transit) with a sprocket sandwiched in between them.
The hub would then mount onto a solid stub axle that is then supported both ends on the swing arm in your case, or a single swing arm in mine.

The chain drive would then nestle in between the tyres, hopefully with enough clearance.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Woodsmith said:


> How are you doing the dually?
> 
> I was thinking about this the other day, pondering the same look as your trike.
> 
> ...


My plan was a _little_ more involved.  When planing the truck, I was going to use a keyed, 1" diameter, shaft, and make hubs to mount the wheels. It gets pricey, and involved though. $50-shaft, $100 sprocket, $50-billet aluminum for hubs, bearings, etc. A lot of CAD time, a lot of machining, a lot of fabrication, then round everything up for what was missed/didn't work as planned...

I like your idea. I didn't have a plan yet for brakes (would proably have been a motorcycle disc on another hub), but that would solve almost everything in one shot. Hmmm.

It still does require a lot more fabrication than simply cutting a motorcycle frame down to the bare necessities and welding it into the chassis... I so want a fat rear tire though. 

This is the kind of K.I.S.S. I need though, keep it coming...


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

I am sure you could machine a billet hub to direct replace the truck one while still including a brake disc and the wheel studs. The bore can then be machined to accept smaller taper roller bearings and seals to whatever axle diameter you want to use.

If the axle is shouldered on one end and threaded on the other end then the big central hub nut can be used to hold it all together before mounting on the swing arm.

The wheel studs can be longer to allow for the sprocket and spacers as required.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Woodsmith said:


> I am sure you could machine a billet hub to direct replace the truck one while still including a brake disc and the wheel studs. The bore can then be machined to accept smaller taper roller bearings and seals to whatever axle diameter you want to use.
> 
> If the axle is shouldered on one end and threaded on the other end then the big central hub nut can be used to hold it all together before mounting on the swing arm.
> 
> The wheel studs can be longer to allow for the sprocket and spacers as required.


I definitely _can. _It just seems like a really slippery slope. 

That keyed shaft plan was for IP's Ice Cream Truck. My way - I have a piece of 3" (diameter), 0.5" wall, aluminum tubing that I could make a nice hub out of. I could machine a flange to mount the wheels pretty easily, and weld it on. I don't have a steady rest, so I would have to turn end caps for the bearings and weld them in too. The difference in what I was thinking and what you've suggested is using actual dually wheels, with a sprocket sandwiched between them. That requires one hub, where my plan required at least two, and more likely three (one for the sprocket).

Hmmm...


Hey, you were supposed to be helping me keep this simple Woody!  I guess this is the simplest version of the ridiculous plan, huh?!


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

toddshotrods said:


> Hey, you were supposed to be helping me keep this simple Woody!  I guess this is the simplest version of the ridiculous plan, huh?!


This is simple! One hub, one sprocket, one pair dually wheels!

You could just use the hub straight off a truck but I think the weight might be an issue for you, heavier then the motor....


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Woodsmith said:


> This is simple! One hub, one sprocket, one pair dually wheels!...


Holds nose, and creeps towards edge of platform... 





Woodsmith said:


> ...You could just use the hub straight off a truck but I think the weight might be an issue for you, heavier then the motor....


Rofl!  And much messier...


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

toddshotrods said:


> I have a piece of 3" (diameter), 0.5" wall, aluminum tubing that I could make a nice hub out of. I could machine a flange to mount the wheels pretty easily, and weld it on.


One advantage of the dually wheels and a sprocket between is that the hub doesn't have to deal with the driving and braking torque. It is all transmitted between the wheels, the sprocket, the brake disk, and the flange on the hub all through the wheel studs.
The hub tube, and the weld to the flange, is just rolling along for the ride and keeping the wheels upright.



I have changed the thread title for you, as requested.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Woodsmith said:


> One advantage of the dually wheels and a sprocket between is that the hub doesn't have to deal with the driving and braking torque. It is all transmitted between the wheels, the sprocket, the brake disk, and the flange on the hub all through the wheel studs.
> The hub tube, and the weld to the flange, is just rolling along for the ride and keeping the wheels upright...


Very, very, good point Woody. You're making me like this idea way too much. 






Woodsmith said:


> ...I have changed the thread title for you, as requested.


Thanks buddy!  Now that I've taken the plunge, I think I am really going to enjoy this. I sat in that seat again a while ago, and didn't want to get up.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

I realised that the existing post titles don't update to the new title. I have reset the fields so that they should from now on.

I started manually changing some of the post titles but there are too many to do it all with so I will leave the rest.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Woodsmith said:


> I realised that the existing post titles don't update to the new title. I have reset the fields so that they should from now on.
> 
> I started manually changing some of the post titles but there are too many to do it all with so I will leave the rest.


Cool, I was wondering about that. I changed it in my previous post, in the subject field - minor issue though.

The important part is that people know I'm at it again!  Wait'll you guys see what I'm up to for the grille and hood - something simple for me to do, with the available equipment, but by no means normal!


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## zeroexcelcior (Aug 2, 2011)

Are you planning a parallel hybrid or a series hybrid?


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

zeroexcelcior said:


> Are you planning a parallel hybrid or a series hybrid?


At this point, parallel because it's the cheapest, easiest, way to be on the road - but - nothing in that area is concrete. I haven't actually ruled out pure BEV, or series hybrid. Even more importantly, the basic chain drive setp will accommodate whatever works for the time, so I could start with a parallel hybrid this year, and move to pure electric next year... Depends on budget, how much I like it, and how I ultimately use it. If I end up rarely ever traveling more than 10-20 miles, the case for all-electric becomes much stronger, even on lead...


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

After a little research and thought, I've realized a few problems with using dually wheels.


Dually parts are relatively expensive; as compared to regular automotive parts - at least in the U.S.
They're going to be pretty heavy - they're made for 1+ton trucks, hauling loads.
I think it will be too wide. The hub section sticks out past the bead, which (especially when a sprocket and/or hub is sandwiched between them) will push the rims out pretty wide. I would have to widen the frame...
I'm thinking of a "hybrid" of the two ideas. A long bolt as the main axle, with a central hub made from the 3" aluminum tube, with three flanges (two for the wheels and one for the sprocket and brake disc) and two end caps with bearings to allow it to spin on the axle (like a motorcycle wheel). That's a lot of fabricating, but I _think_ I can do most of it through CAD/CNC. For alignment, as long as I get really close, I can true the mounting surfaces on the lathe, after welding.

What am I missing/underestimating?


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

You can do it that way, just make sure the flange for the sprocket is bigger then the flanges for the wheels so you can get the sprocket over them.

You could make a big cylinder that has the wheel studs on each side and a flange around the middle that holds the sprocket.

The sprocket could also be the brake disk.

I thought dually wheels were common on even light pick up trucks in the US, don't they have aluminium ones? Could you machine a bit of weight out of the steel ones? Or cut out the centre and move it a little to get the tyres closer?

How close do you want the tyres anyway? Should be enough of a gap for the chain to be in there, and the brake caliper and the brake hose.

This is a Ford Transit dually. The gap isn't too big.









14" and 15" rims on older models.









16" on newer models.









The hub mounting would be in the dish of one wheel, with the brake disk and caliper tucked in there.
Between the wheels would be the sprocket, say a 5/8 plate wheel of about 3/8 thick.
Then the other wheel goes on and the nuts are in the dish of that wheel.

Transit wheels aren't that heavy, well not compared to my spoked wheels.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Woodsmith said:


> You can do it that way, just make sure the flange for the sprocket is bigger then the flanges for the wheels so you can get the sprocket over them...


That would be funny - well, not really to me, but it probably would be to others watching me screw that one up! I would probably figure it out after welding and truing it. 





Woodsmith said:


> ...The sprocket could also be the brake disk...


That's done on custom bikes a lot, but it seems messy, like not the ideal environment for brake pads. I guess being bolted to the same flange on a hub is also not ideal, but at least there's a small space between them.





Woodsmith said:


> ...I thought dually wheels were common on even light pick up trucks in the US, don't they have aluminium ones? Could you machine a bit of weight out of the steel ones? Or cut out the centre and move it a little to get the tyres closer?...


Mostly, on big work trucks; 1-ton and up. I remember, many moons ago, there was a Toyota with 14" dually wheels and bolt pattern, but haven't seen any of those rims in forever... They're probably pretty rare and costly.

Most of the rims are 16 and 16.5", and heavy as heck. Aluminum is aftermarket, and pricey as heck. I didn't find anything reasonably priced, and simultaneously reasonably light. I guess I would have to buy something European and then shipping would probably take the price through the roof again.





Woodsmith said:


> ...How close do you want the tyres anyway? Should be enough of a gap for the chain to be in there, and the brake caliper and the brake hose...


Just enough of a gap to pass a chain through - maybe an inch. If I did the custom hub route the dish would be inside and I would hide the brake caliper in there, with a bracket running from behind the tires, opposite of the chain coming from in front of them.


I should also point out that I still really like your idea, and haven't ruled it out - just exploring options. If I can find dually wheels cheap enough...


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Here's another idea I toyed with: machining the outside face of the aluminum wheels I have, so that I could use them like dually wheels. With a small hub/flange between them and through bolts in place of the original studs and lug nuts, it would work like your original idea with no cost for the rims, and light weight...

I'd either have to get creative with machining or sub that out. I can't fit the wheels on the ShopBot, and the big manual mill is leaving. We have a small one here but there's not enough depth to machine the full surface. I would have to machine half, do a second setup, and machine the other half; which isn't really a problem.

Thoughts?


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

I thought about the wheels you have being reversed but I wasn't sure of your laws over there regarding that sort of wheel mod.

It would be a good way around it if there is enough 'meat' left to get a good location spigot or recess. Also the holes on the other side will need the right counter sink to centre and tension the bolts.
That shouldn't be beyond you to do, given another machine shop.


Just imagining what design flare you would add to the normally rough inner face of the wheels.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Woodsmith said:


> I thought about the wheels you have being reversed but I wasn't sure of your laws over there regarding that sort of wheel mod...


Laws?! Here?! In Ohio?! You're funny Woody! 






Woodsmith said:


> ...It would be a good way around it if there is enough 'meat' left to get a good location spigot or recess. Also the holes on the other side will need the right counter sink to centre and tension the bolts...


I was thinking of just machining a flat surface for the hub to seat against and using the original center hole as a register - that's what actually trues them on a vehicle. It would be the same on the hub, leaving the bolts to only serve as drive pins, and a clamping mechanism. My understanding is that countersink is more for surface area for the nut to lock, than centering the wheel.






Woodsmith said:


> ...Just imagining what design flare you would add to the normally rough inner face of the wheels.


I haven't made it that far yet!  I'm also trying to keep myself focused on just making the darn thing run as quickly and cheaply as possible, before I start on my normal _Todd_ stuff. The few exceptions will be the grille/hood panel, and I think a little trunk behind the seat. Oh, and I do have a special windshield planned...

I hope to have the sketch far enough along to post it today...


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

_Edit:_ I scaled the seat down a bit, so it's close enough now to not have to point it out (hmmm, that's what I just did...  ) If you were here before and you're still seeing a huge seat, clear your cache - hold shift or control down and refresh the page.









The hood and trunk are really the only over the top art type stuff on the car, the rest is all chassis. I don't plan of finishing anything (paint, powder coating, plating, etc), so I am thinking about skinning the hood with carbon fiber so I don't have to finish it either; ditto the trunk.

The windshield is actually what came on a 1909 Packard Model 18 - I have been wanting to do one of those little vanity mirror style windshields for a long time.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

If my guesstimates and math are correct, the case for making PackRat a pure BEV is pretty strong. I based everything on 150 watts per mile, figuring that it will be very light in weight, and shouldn't be the most horrible thing ever, aerodynamically, considering how narrow and low it is. If you look at the shape and profile, while it is a little clunky (by modern standards) it's a fairly straight shot back for the airstream, and a small frontal area. I think the final weight will be around 600 pounds.

Stage One - AGM Wheelchair batteries ($520; ~200lbs):
(8) 35ah batteries : 48v x 70ah = 3.36Kwh / 2 - 25% / 150 = 8.4 miles


Stage Two - CALB CA Series LiFePO4 cells ($4,140; 225lbs)
(30) 100ah cells : 96v x 100ah = 9.6Kwh - 25% / 150 = 48 miles


That's not bad. For a very low cost, by typical EV standards, you have normal EV range. Those 30 cells would be completely tucked inside the frame rails, under the trunk. There is actually room to easily double that for ~100 miles of range. Even the initial 8 miles of range on lead is incredibly attractive. I just need to think about how I really want to use this trike.

The reason I am so amazed is I have never designed and started an EV project where this was possible. I always needed LiPo to get the maximum amount of power from the least possible physical real estate. Even with Scrape, the small battery box still makes LiPo the best option, and Headway cylindrical cells a second best. The combination of a Todd style hot rod and more practical EV usage is not an oil and water thing - who wudda thunk it! 


I'm not saying I am going BEV - just that it is definitely in the running now...


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

I am liking the look, very nice.

I do hope that it becomes a BEV, such a shame to have to find the space for ICE fuel tank, exhaust, that otherwise could be used for pure EV stuff.




Maybe a 'daft idea' for a range extender but here goes...

Have a removable 'luggage rack' over the rear wheel. 
Mount a sleakly packaged motorbike ICE power pack (ICE, trans, starter battery, fuel tank) with a chain drive that can be easily hooked onto the sprocket on the motor. The trans can be put in neutral when running as an EV. The ICE only needs to be a small capacity as you don't have much weight to move. Even a 150-250cc scooter setup with auto trans could do it.
Then sort out the little details of starting and throttle. Reverse can still be by the electric motor anyway, but for long range running the ICE can see you most of the way there on a small tank of gas.

You can then remove the power pack and rack and run as BEV.

OK, you can shoot me now.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Woodsmith said:


> I am liking the look, very nice....


Thanks Woody!  Not bad for a cobbled together collection of spare parts, eh? 





Woodsmith said:


> ...I do hope that it becomes a BEV, such a shame to have to find the space for ICE fuel tank, exhaust, that otherwise could be used for pure EV stuff...


It does make a lot of sense from a practical standpoint, I just need to think it through personally.

Another fringe benefit is seating. With a larger motorcycle engine, the passenger seat would be pretty high to clear the engine. With BEV, the batteries are pretty low allowing me to keep the seat at a more reasonable height.


Hey, I never gave the details on the honey seat! It's in the trunk, sort of like an old rumble seat. Just flip the lid back and it will reveal a seat pad, and the lid becomes a padded back rest. I'm thinking about flip down foot boards, alongside the driver's seat. 






Woodsmith said:


> ...Maybe a 'daft idea' for a range extender but here goes...
> 
> Have a removable 'luggage rack' over the rear wheel.
> Mount a sleakly packaged motorbike ICE power pack (ICE, trans, starter battery, fuel tank) with a chain drive that can be easily hooked onto the sprocket on the motor. The trans can be put in neutral when running as an EV. The ICE only needs to be a small capacity as you don't have much weight to move. Even a 150-250cc scooter setup with auto trans could do it.
> ...


I actually like that idea! It would be nice to have the range extender's chain drive setup permanently in place, with a slip fit connector for the ICE output shaft. That would make it a snap to pop on and off. I also really like the idea of an automatic trans setup from a scooter...

Hmmm...


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

I figured that if you had visible access to a second sprocket on the motor then the ICE's chain can stay with the ice, maybe held captive with a retaining shield over the ICE's sprocket so it doesn't unmesh when slack.

When fitting the ICE power pack you can drop the chain, through a hatch in the bodywork, to connect with the motor sprocket. Then, by sliding the power pack back onto retaining slots on the luggage rack, the chain can be tensioned and the power packed secured.

A simple an elegant fitting.

The control need only be a plug in patch lead to link the power pack to the cockpit switch gear, lights and instruments as needed. A cable or electric hook up for the throttle will depend on what you have at each end. You could do it electrically if the ICE can handle it and just have the one electric patch lead to connect.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

That is a nice setup. I need to borrow someone's hot rod for a couple weeks to figure out how I would actually use one in my old age; since mine are all still "in the works".  Twenty years ago, 100 miles was just enough to make me want to start driving or riding. Now, I'm so busy _thinking_ I rarely ever make it out of my computer chair.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

Just thought.

If you only use the ICE for distance cruising then you could replace the chain with a poly V belt, or two, and use the motor to get moving from a stop and the ICE to keep moving when the motor is shut off. That reduces the torque the ICE needs to transmit and so a V belt would be able to cope.

No messy oily chain on the power pack to hook up!


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Woodsmith said:


> Just thought.
> 
> If you only use the ICE for distance cruising then you could replace the chain with a poly V belt, or two, and use the motor to get moving from a stop and the ICE to keep moving when the motor is shut off. That reduces the torque the ICE needs to transmit and so a V belt would be able to cope.
> 
> No messy oily chain on the power pack to hook up!


I have been toying with a parallel hybrid idea for a couple years that would use an electric motor in place of the transmission, so that the vehicle could only be driven in stop-n-go with electric on, but could be driven on ICE alone once at speed. I just never had the time and money to experiment with it, because Schism has the need for speed which would place more demand on the electric drive and begin to dictate things I have more freedom of decision in currently.

I could with PackRat...


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Sorry Woody, but I made a critical decision for PackRat today - the dually wheels are out. My number one goal for this project is to be able to drive it as quickly and cheaply as possible, and that setup would require too much of my time and money. On the other extreme, if I simply purchased a running motorcycle and grafted it into the frame, I would have a running hot rod (assuming the front suspension was in place and ready).

So, in preparation I reworked the sketch to see how I liked the idea of a single, skinny rear wheel. I'm going to try to narrow the front tires to 135R15s, on space saver spare rims, to work with the expected narrow bike tire and wheel. I also have the option of fitting a wider rear tire, as the budget permits, later.










Then, I pulled one of the wheels out on the mock-up, and found, to my surprise, that I actually like it!  Not, I can tolerate it, I really like it! 









I think "skinny" just works on this vehicle. It's narrow and sparsely "populated", and the more the individual components follow that theme, the better they look, IMO.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

toddshotrods said:


> ...I'm going to try to narrow the front tires to 135R15s, on space saver spare rims, to work with the expected narrow bike tire and wheel...


Awesome! I think I found the stuff I need.

The rims and a close enough tire for mock-up/development.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/99-00-01-02...Parts_Accessories&hash=item3ccc743ad3&vxp=mtr
I'm going to see if I can get these cheaper at the local Pick-n-Pull.


The right tires (and an even better size), at a very reasonable price.
http://www.jegs.com/i/Coker+Tire/25...&cagpspn=pla&gclid=CP-u85nCurYCFVSVMgodrRIA3A


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

Cool!

Looks fine with a single wide rear tyre. That just puts the drive on one side of the swing arm. Loss of some symmetry but simplifies it a lot. Also opens up more options for later on when it is up and running.

I do like the way the frame is on the outside of the rear wheel and wraps around it. I may have to visit that idea myself, though it makes wheel changing, for a flat, a bit more involved.


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## ken will (Dec 19, 2009)

Just don't make the rear tire too big!


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Woodsmith said:


> Cool!
> 
> Looks fine with a single wide rear tyre...


Just a caveat, it could end up being a single narrow tire, at least for a while. For example, Scrape has a 160mm tire (that's a 215 on the car), and if I found the right motorcycle setup with that size, that's what it would be - totally dependent on what becomes available...






Woodsmith said:


> ...Also opens up more options for later on when it is up and running...


If it does end up narrow, and _we _ don't like it, that's the point - it can be changed, relatively easily. There's a place here, on the West Coast, that will widen motorcyle rims, so I could go out to as much as 12", if desired.  






Woodsmith said:


> ...I do like the way the frame is on the outside of the rear wheel and wraps around it. I may have to visit that idea myself, though it make wheel changing, for a flat, a bit more involved.


That is one of those cool design features you just find in the stuff you have, which is one reason I love playing with old crap. If I had designed a frame from scratch for this project, I doubt I would have done that, but since the frame is there, I tried it on paper and love it. It's like a rear bumper, and kind of balances the whole thing, regardless of the rear wheel size. Actually, I think it works better with the single rear wheel because it makes the looping frame rails pop out - they're hard to miss like this.






ken will said:


> Just don't make the rear tire too big!


Haha, I will be seeking a better balance of components!


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

toddshotrods said:


> It's like a rear bumper, and kind of balances the whole thing, regardless of the rear wheel size. Actually, I think it works better with the single rear wheel because it makes the looping frame rails pop out - they're hard to miss like this.


I am thinking 'tow hitch' on mine. 
Extra cargo or extra batteries.


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## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

Todd:

Your decision to ditch the duals is spot-on.

I have been just reading and not posting much on the forum and was waiting before throwing a wrench into your design...

With two locked tires like that, you vehicle would not roll free in an arc as the outside tire will always scuff and drag. That is why a differential is used on vehicles. (even if they are close together) 

Ask anyone that owns a dually truck with any mileage and they will tell you the outside tires/both sides/ wore the tread faster than the inner tires did. 

Sometime google "ackerman steering" or "Ackerman angle", to get a good grasp of cornering geometry. (and help aid in getting your steering arms the right length)

If you wanted the "look" of duals, you would have to make one free wheeling on it's own hub with bearings and only have one as the drive tire.

Locked axles have their purpose, but on street cars, they waste power and parts (unless it is a big HP car)

I even had to remove the clutches on the posi-traction unit on my car to make it U-turn without jerking.

Anyways, carry-on! It is looking good. I like a fat rear tire...

Miz


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Woodsmith said:


> I am thinking 'tow hitch' on mine.
> Extra cargo or extra batteries.


I like that! 





mizlplix said:


> Todd:
> 
> Your decision to ditch the duals is spot-on.
> 
> ...


Hey Miz - thanks!  I'm very familiar with Ackerman. When we originally started building this project - the Ice Cream Truck - that wasn't a concern because it was a low-speed marketing tool, that was really being built to putt around at events, through crowds of people. It was a carryover/leftover idea that looked cool, but was totally unnecessary anyway. I'm glad I got past it, because - on the point you're making - I would rather build a vehicle that is a joy to just drive, drive, drive... 

My buddy has a Pro Street Vega that has a spool, and 18.5" wide tires - it's fun to listen to it groan and squeal around corners.



Thanks for the inspiration to do a speedster - it's something I had honestly never even considered, until I saw your hot rod.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

My '09 Packard idea, and the specific interpretation of it I have in mind, is far enough outside my normal "box-less" M.O. that I decided I'd better test in 1/4-scale before venturing into foam. I am normally the organic curves guy, but the early Packard styling is boxier and kind of _rigid_ for me. I like the challenge though, and want to see where I can go with it.

































The frame on the model is off a bit from what PackRat's will be. That frame was rounded in front for the track nose, but PackRat will have a squared-off snout. It will complement the wrap-around bumper style frame rails out back. To emphasize it, I pulled the hood sides in as they go forward, which works with the mild taper downward. Normally, I would have radically pulled the front down (sloped) and in (tapered), but that would have reduced the grille to a half of what I have there, and I wanted the blunt nose of the original cars to be at least vaguely represented.

I want it to really look old. The tires are off here - way too big and fat.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

This was fun. I wanted something special for the "grille" to finish the hood, but didn't want to get into anything crazy like Schism's grille. Since airflow is not necessary, a solid panel with a little detail was the decision. Since I _think_ I am going to skin the foam hood plug with carbon fiber, and leave it exposed, something contrasting was also desired. I decided to explore the option of machining an aluminum panel on the ShopBot. I started with the mesh bars from Schism's grille, trimmed them to fit in PackRat's grille opening, and around the PackRat logo; slanted how the Packard logos were attached the the grille, and recessed into its own pocket. Then I draped a surface over them, creating a solid panel with woven highlights; perfect. Only two hours of CAD time, and it was ready to cut.










Unfortunately, I think cutting the full-size version on the ShopBot, in aluminum, would take way too much time (like 20 hours ). I can machine a plug and have it cast though. Perfect in the hood. The Packrat logo goes in that little cleared and recessed spot.









I also added "feet' on the bottom of the hood, where it sits on the frame.

























I have no idea why I have the back wheel back that far. It should be inside the frame rails.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

I think I am going to have a new favorite project, ever. Sorry Scrape!  I've been cutting the foam plug for the hood over the last few days. I have another day or two to go, and will have pics. It's taking longer than ever because I am cutting at really high resolution (small stepover) to have as nice of a surface as possible for the carbon fiber, so it will look nice exposed. The surfaces are really nice.

I really, really, like this trike!  Ironically, it is what I intended to build when I started Schism - something simple, and purposely raw - to have something to play around in, while taking our time with the Inhaler. It snowballed a few months into the build, when I started using it as a training tool for the interns, because I had to find ways to challenge them, which simultaneously challenged me, and so on, and so on. Sophistication and complexity are the cornerstones of that car. I design twenty parts to look and function like one. 

PackRat is the complete opposite, and even more so than Scrape. Every part, every system, is refined down to the bare minimum, and clean simplicity rules the day, making any of the wretched excess that happens on Schism look completely out of place. I also incorporated a lesson learned with Scrape - keep excess cooks out of the kitchen. It's just me, and possibly a little help from Curt and Kez, later, but only to help me do what I need to do - not to morph into a different animal to suit a different purpose.

More to come...


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Well, after days of carving the hood is finally all cut. It's just loosely stacked here, waiting to be bonded. I'm currently planning for a carbon fiber/foam core composite final piece. One layer of carbon fiber on the outside, one layer on the inside, encapsulating the foam. After I get it all bonded together and ready, I will probably do the outer layer. That one will more than likely be bagged. When it's fully cured, the inside will be hand shaped and then probably get a normal wet lay-up. I'm not going for structure, mainly surface quality, on the outside. If all goes well, it will be a matter of clear-coating it until it's smooth and calling it "_done_"... 









The "dash" needs to be blended into the "doors", but I wanted to do that by hand after seeing it on the car. I couldn't make up my mind in CAD, and didn't want to end up stuck there, _researching_ options for the next two weeks... 










That's the good news. The bad news, for hardcore BEVers here, is that I kind of walked into a deal today for a complete (disassembled) Honda 750 motorcycle. I was busy finishing up the last sections of the hood, so I haven't had a chance to really figure out if I can fit that big engine yet, and to see if it's decent enough to make run quickly (the engine is not disassembled). If so, and if so, I will probably be going the parallel hybrid route. That little AC motor in the pic would actually make a perfect little motor, with a rewind, but that brings up the whole inverter issue. Otherwise, I can find a DC motor the same size and a cheap Alltrax and have electric drive capability easier/cheaper/quicker. I need electric for reverse, and want electric to make my vision for the project complete (must have electric in some form).


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

I am liking the look very much.

I guess if you include the motorbike motor at this stage then it keeps the project moving in a direction that may allow for the ICE to come out again later on to make it a full BEV if it makes sense at that stage.

How will the ICE fit in around the honey seat?

I still reckon a sit astride saddle over a large longitudinal motor would be a good space saving route to go...


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Woodsmith said:


> I am liking the look very much...


Thanks Woody!  I am really liking this project much more than I thought I would. The number one goal is still to simply get it running but, even along that path, I am having an absolute blast!  It has the exact same ability to provide maximum return for small efforts as Scrape does; maybe even more so...






Woodsmith said:


> ...I guess if you include the motorbike motor at this stage then it keeps the project moving in a direction that may allow for the ICE to come out again later on to make it a full BEV if it makes sense at that stage...


Me, change something?!  Yeah, it can always be changed and adapted to meet the current needs and circumstances. One thing I realized while debating this issue is that, if I am smart, I can design interchangeable battery modules for Scrape and PackRat, which which allow me to invest in one very good pack. The thought of spending thousands for batteries for two non-essential toys bothered me a bit... One? Now that makes sense! 







Woodsmith said:


> ...How will the ICE fit in around the honey seat?
> 
> I still reckon a sit astride saddle over a large longitudinal motor would be a good space saving route to go...


That is an issue...

















So, as you can see, PackRat is tiny enough to make a Honda 750 engine look like a big block American V8 stuffed in a micro car! 

I can fit it easily right there. I have to stretch the rear frame rails about six inches just to get the tire back in there. As for the honey seat, I guess she'd be perched _way up over_ and behind the engine and motor - note, that would actually put her head at normal SUV/cruiser motorcycle height, meaning I would be safer with her on board. I need an armored plate over the valve cover, to keep my head attached to my neck, so I was thinking that it could also unfold backwards over the engine to create the honey seat. I think I have enough space under the hood to keep a leather pad stored that could be attached with quick release pins. She wouldn't be as close as (I think) I'd like her to be, but she might feel pretty special - like she's being chauffeured around, like a prom queen sitting on the back shelf of an open convertible! 

In the case of a dude passenger - I think I'd prefer having him a little further back... 


If I did use that little AC motor, I would have to eliminate the connection box to get all four carbs in there. I would probably try to just bring the three leads directly through the frame. One thing I was thinking about with having the electric motor is RPM. I either need a motor with bearings and armature capable of spinning (freewheel) to 10-12K, or a clutch mechanism to disconnect it at a certain RPM. I think the vehicle would be light enough for the motor to move it direct drive, through the regular chain final drive reduction, but not if it was wound to spin 12K. One advantage of the AC motor, I think, is it could spin along for the ride without damage. I just saw in the forklift motor thread where Major advised against flat towing with a, direct drive, series DC motor connected because it will wear the film off the comm. Something I had never considered, with all the hybrid ideas I had/have, including Schism's, but now have to take into account.

More to come, thoughts and comments welcome...


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

I wonder how much power an AirCon type electric clutch could be made to handle....

I don't know about your honeys over their but I'm not sure I'd like mine perched up there.

Could you find a little space behind your seat to squeeze in a fuel cell with a saddle over it?


Just a thought....

Is it possible to turn the ICE to face backwards, trans to the front and the drive being reversed on its way back to the wheel? That would allow a honey seat with enough 'seat back' clearance over the ICE trans.

Hmmm, maybe not a clear image, turn the ICE to face backwards, tuck the motor under the ICE cylinders and onto the frame, place the honey seat onto, or in front of, the motorbike trans casing.
Do something, bevel box and shaft drive?, to get the drive train direction correct.


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## ken will (Dec 19, 2009)

It is looking good!

But, I don't think it would be a good idea to put the electric motor right behind an air cooled motor. It could get pretty hot


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Woodsmith said:


> I wonder how much power an AirCon type electric clutch could be made to handle....


I thought of that, because we have discussed it before. I never did any research on it though. AC compressors take a pretty decent little chunk of power to run at full blast, so it could be comparable _enough_ to the little motor I would be using here.







Woodsmith said:


> I don't know about your honeys over their but I'm not sure I'd like mine perched up there....


I've known some who would have loved being perched and on display - never enough attention... 







Woodsmith said:


> ...Could you find a little space behind your seat to squeeze in a fuel cell with a saddle over it?...


That was the original plan, with a motorcycle engine, but I had something much smaller in mind, originally. As it is, I really don't want to stretch it and that's the only way I could fit anything else in there. I really don't even want to stretch it the six inches needed to get the rear tire back inside the closed frame.



The funny thing about this conversation is it's role reversal. I remember a day when you were designing for you and I was dead set on convincing you you _needed_ a honey seat! 







Woodsmith said:


> ...Just a thought....
> 
> Is it possible to turn the ICE to face backwards, trans to the front and the drive being reversed on its way back to the wheel? That would allow a honey seat with enough 'seat back' clearance over the ICE trans.
> 
> ...


I actually really like that idea, but I don't want to go there on PackRat. Right now, my fabrication work is cutting a handful of brackets and welding it all together and moving on to making it run. The main reason I am going motorcycle drivetrain is to be as close to plug and play as possible.

I'm seriously thinking about scrapping my rear frame concept, and just welding a crossmember behind the engine, which would also be for its rear mounts, and hanging the factory swingarm off of it. I can use the skinny bike wheel/tire just to get set up and buy a 15" rim from a cruiser and mount a real car tire as soon as I am ready for it. Then going fatter is just a matter of fabricating a wider swingarm, getting a fat wheel and tire, and swapping components - like I would do on a drag bike. It seems logical, but I'm not convinced I'd like it.

I'll do some sketching and/or Photoshopping later to test the idea.








ken will said:


> It is looking good!
> 
> But, I don't think it would be a good idea to put the electric motor right behind an air cooled motor. It could get pretty hot


Thanks Ken! 

You're right, that's not the ideal location, but it may be the only location I have for it. If so, I will come up with a decent heat shield for it. I don't think there is quite as much heat as one would think though. That is where the air boxes were for years, and still are sometimes. We usually removed all that and ran velocity stacks or screened filters right of the back of the carbs (where the motor is), and definitely gained power with them. We also reached in there to set the idle, tune the carbs, etc, with the engine warm and running and I don't remember any excessive heat - that was out front - where my back will be - you should be worried about me! 

I think the heat sort of washes out into the draft on the sides.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

*Update:*
I went back out in the shop to have a look at the spacing, to see what could be moved where. The first thing I noticed is that it was possible to tilt the seat forward a bit. Then I realized that I could also slide the hood, steering wheel, and seat forward a couple inches, by attaching the front crossmember to the front of the frame rails, instead of between them.

I did that, and slid the drivetrain forward and, presto, the rear wheel dropped in with room to spare. I will be doing the same thing - welding the crossmember to the back of the frame rails, instead of between them. That will actually let the rear wheel go back a bit more, either for spacing things out, or for chain adjustment - probably a little of each.

It didn't solve the honey seat problem, but everything is tucked in nicely and it looks very "machine", like it's ready to race somebody! 

Pics in a little while.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Here she is with the components relocated and all stuffed in there.


















So this brings me back to something I have been thinking about doing, but haven't brought up yet. It's actually in the sketch, but wasn't actively discussed. The rear axle setup.

In the sketch, I have a solid axle mounted on parallel leaf springs. This way I avoid the whole swingarm debacle, and maintain a more automotive like feel in back. I can also fit any tire up 20" wide! 

The issue is whether it will cause the chain and/or sprockets to wear prematurely. Unlike a swingarm, the axle can move more on one side than the other, putting a little twist on the chain. I'm working with three inches of travel, max, maybe more like two - so it couldn't be a huge difference, because the axle is short, naturally stiff, with one wheel in the center - it should _want_ to move all together...

Whadda ya think Woody?


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## ken will (Dec 19, 2009)

toddshotrods said:


> Unlike a swingarm, the axle can move more on one side than the other, putting a little twist on the chain. I'm working with three inches of travel, max, maybe more like two - so it couldn't be a huge difference, because the axle is short, naturally stiff, with one wheel in the center - it should _want_ to move all together...


Going straight and hitting bumps should be okay. 
I believe the wheel and chain will twist the most when cornering, especially if you have a lot of weight in the rear.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

ken will said:


> ...especially if you have a lot of weight in the rear.


So far, on paper, it looks like there will be ~250lbs on the back.


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## samwichse (Jan 28, 2012)

Have you thought about a cantilevered leaf spring design for the back end? You could get rid of that boxing in of the rear wheel with the frame that way and add a unique touch.

Sam


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

samwichse said:


> Have you thought about a cantilevered leaf spring design for the back end? You could get rid of that boxing in of the rear wheel with the frame that way and add a unique touch.
> 
> Sam


Hey Sam, if you mean what I think you do, that's fairly popular in hot rodding now. The typically use quarter elliptical springs. I do like that in theory, and aesthetically, and could end up using something similar.

The thing is, I like the boxed in rear frame!  No matter what I do, that stays. It fills the the rear of the vehicle, giving it a more car-like feel, without needing body parts.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

The goal for PackRat is to have the chassis together before the end of May, and spend the month of June making it run. I really don't have a lot to do to get the chassis together. The biggest issue was just doing the front suspension geometry, to make sure it handles decent. Being a straight axle design, that was a walk in the park compared to playing, endlessly, with SLA geometry.

I have much more adjustment than a conventional straight axle, with rod ends hanging SLA style steering knuckles, so the main thing I had to do was get the basics figured out and make sure the Ackerman was going to be okay. I am using the old Honda Accord steering rack, chopped down, and in its intended rear steer configuration, as the foundation for a rack and pinion cross-steer setup. That means the rack pushes and pulls the left steering arm, via an outer tie rod with a rod end; and a drag link moves the right steering arm accordingly.

I will have to bend the factory steering arms in a touch over an inch (circled point, with arrow to point on yellow line), but they only get two-tenths of an inch shorter. It should work out perfectly.









The funniest thing about PackRat is how long it looks from some angles - its wheelbase is a full 10-inches shorter than Schism's at 92"!!!


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Here we go. This week I plan to get a headstart on my goals for next month. If I manage to get the front axle roughed in, I will start May ahead of schedule jumping into the drivetrain mounts.

Today, I finished the CAD drawings, cut a poster board pattern, and jumped headfirst into some good old cut-n-grind. These two plates will be some of, if not, the only .250" steel plate used on this build. After this the plan is to keep the weight as low as possible, meaning not so heavy gauge steel. On Schism, the heavy plate is to manage massive torque, with the desired aesthetic. PackRat will be built light, with more top-end power, allowing a totally different philosophy on design and construction. The heavy plate here is to add stiffness, strength, and torsional rigidity to the outer ends of the axle. The plates will be slotted into the tubing, so that it would have to shear the length of the plate, and break the welds, to totally fail.


















Next, I need to switch gears, mentally, and very carefully lay out the slot positions on the tubes, then cut them as precisely as possible. Once that's done, and I fit and tack the assembly together, I just have to do spring mounts and a center brace. I'll stop at the, tacked, rough-in to make sure everything works properly before welding it all together.


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

toddshotrods said:


> I have much more adjustment than a conventional straight axle, with rod ends hanging SLA style steering knuckles, so the main thing I had to do was get the basics figured out and make sure the Ackerman was going to be okay. I am using the old Honda Accord steering rack, chopped down, and in its intended rear steer configuration, as the foundation for a rack and pinion cross-steer setup. That means the rack pushes and pulls the left steering arm, via an outer tie rod with a rod end; and a drag link moves the right steering arm accordingly.
> 
> I will have to bend the factory steering arms in a touch over an inch (circled point, with arrow to point on yellow line), but they only get two-tenths of an inch shorter. It should work out perfectly.


Hi Todd

I would not worry too much about Ackerman - some cars have positive Ackerman - some have negative

I would concentrate on ensuring that you have eliminated bump steer -


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Duncan said:


> Hi Todd
> 
> I would not worry too much about Ackerman - some cars have positive Ackerman - some have negative
> 
> I would concentrate on ensuring that you have eliminated bump steer -


Hey Duncan! Bump steer will be designed out from the beginning and easily adjustable, if I miss. Since I only have one link from the rack to the steering arms, and a LOT of ability to adjust the position of the pivot points, I'm pretty sure I'll be able to dial bump out of the picture.

The reason I am putting thought into Ackerman is I have always wanted to play with the idea of making a straight axle front suspension car handle. This, fully rod-ended, design has been in my head, and on my sketch pads, for years now and is finally making it to the asphalt. With a 92" wheelbase, featherweight construction, and very flexible hybrid drivetrain, I think this thing could be a blast around the autocross cones and tight road courses -if it can point the wheels in the right direction. The ability to turn is everything here. Quick turn-in, sticks-like-glue-to-a-line, and almost telepathic feedback, are the keys.

In addition to pouring hours of thought and design into the relatively simple geometry, I have also made the connection between the asphalt and my hands as direct as possible. It's all steel, all solid connections, from the steering arms to the wheel. A very direct, solid-mounted, pathway. Add to that the ability to optimize the contact patch with _perfect_ camber, caster, and pointing (Ackerman), and it _should_ be fun! 

That's the goal anyway...  Remember, this is the Todd version of "simple"!


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

Hi Todd

I did a lot of thinking about 20 years ago about using front and rear beam axles on a track car (De Dion tube at the back)
Never got around to it - but I still think it,s a good idea

The reason Ackerman is a bit moot is that on the track you never corner with zero slip - your tires are always slipping a wee bit

I am planning on using the Device on similar events - did my first sprint for over twenty years a week ago - the driver is more than a bit rusty!


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

I should probably clarify something - I am looking for the fun _feeling_ of really cornering well, not the actual stopwatch time confirmations. All my effort is actually in developing a vehicle that feels so awesome to bend into a corner, or blast down a back road, that you want to do it again and again and again - even if you're really not moving much faster than a "normal" car.

If it happens to actually be quick as well, all the better. It's just not the real goal...


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

toddshotrods said:


> I should probably clarify something - I am looking for the fun _feeling_ of really cornering well, not the actual stopwatch time confirmations. All my effort is actually in developing a vehicle that feels so awesome to bend into a corner, or blast down a back road, that you want to do it again and again and again - even if you're really not moving much faster than a "normal" car.
> 
> If it happens to actually be quick as well, all the better. It's just not the real goal...


I can understand that - BUT - when you take it to the track the old competitive spirit will burst forth and it will have to be quick or you will feel.....


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Duncan said:


> I can understand that - BUT - when you take it to the track the old competitive spirit will burst forth and it will have to be quick or you will feel.....


I doubt it, with this car. I would just putt off to find some twisty roads, and promise PackRat that its big brother Schism would avenge its honor, someday...  I haven't been to a racing facility in almost two decades, because I traded forms of competition. I'm more inclined to compete on the show floor, because that's where my design work best shines (figurative implication, I'm not really into shiny stuff). Even with Schism, the performance goals have more to do with challenging myself to design something capable of them, than outdoing someone else. I live in my own bubble, on my own island. 



On the subject of design, something I always look for in my designs is a quality I call "machine". It's a combination of stance which, in the hotrod/musclecar world, is wheel/tire combo in relation to other components, ride height, rake, etc, and an aesthetic style and execution of the components that makes them almost look like they were collectively chiseled from a solid block - like sculpture. It's actually challenging to achieve, and only a handful of the best custom car builders are able to consistently hit that nail on the head.

I took me quite a while to hone in on it with Schism, and it will take even longer to carefully bring that out so that it will be evident to most people. A wrong turn along the way can easily kill it, but once you have the flow going it's kind of easy to maintain it. To my delight, I saw it gelling early on with PackRat, but when I stuck the _big_ 750 engine in the picture it started to fade. I have been quietly toying with this, behind the scenes, trying to see if I could get it back on track - without losing the focus of the project; which is get it together quick, cheap, and easy. I would normally have tossed the engine, and followed the developing "machine" quality, at all costs, but I am also a discipline junkie and have committed to following the prescribed path.

The answer turns out to be quite simple, and relatively cheap - wipes sweat from brow.  It's the rear tire size. This thing likes "tire" - the more the merrier; but big, rounded, chunky-looking, tires. I had originally planned to run 125mm (section width) front tires, but after I got the hood in place, I noticed that I really like the 185s. Then, when I experimented with the motorcycle wheel in back, I noticed that I liked the height but didn't like the narrow tire (it's a 120mm) so much. Today, I was watching a slideshow of the trike, alternating between before and after the 750 engine was dropped on the frame, and finally realized the problem - it dwarfs the current rear tire.

What's one to do? Open the Photo Shop, and confirm. Yup. 









This is actually cheaper. I keep the current 185s for now, and have them mounted on lighter (than the steel space saver spare rims I had in mind) aluminum rims, and simply find a used 235/70R15, or better yet a 235/75R15 (taller and probably cheaper) tire.

It does put me back to fabricating a rear hub, but I have some new ideas for that - TBD soon... 

If you really ready all that - there's medication that can help you!


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Because simple is apparently not in me, most of today was consumed with making a new sign for the studio. I had six hours on the ShopBot, plus an hour or so fitting the pieces together and giving it a trial run on the arch over the doorway.

The good part of this, for PackRat, is it put me in exactly the frame of mind I needed to plot and cut the slots in the front axle tubing. 









It came out very nice. The plates kind of _clink_ into place and the fit is nice and tight, for a strong part. Tomorrow-ish, I will design and cut a wooden fixture and tack it together. I think the leaf spring pads will be next in line after that.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

toddshotrods said:


> The answer turns out to be quite simple, and relatively cheap - wipes sweat from brow.  It's the rear tire size. This thing likes "tire" - the more the merrier; but big, rounded, chunky-looking, tires.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Ok, where are those meds? 

I wanted bigger and bigger tyres on mine too. Started with little moped wheels on the front and a skinny motor bike wheel on the rear. 
Now MGB fronts at 21" and a tall wide Morgan rear at 25". I still fancy using the rear wheel and tyre size up front and a 31" tall wide Land Rover tyre at the rear.
It is just the thought of all that spinning mass on a single sided swing arm that puts me off the idea!


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Woodsmith said:


> Ok, where are those meds? ...








Woodsmith said:


> ...Started with little moped wheels on the front and a skinny motor bike wheel on the rear...


I remember that! 






Woodsmith said:


> ...It is just the thought of all that spinning mass on a single sided swing arm that puts me off the idea!


Unless it's a Woody-built swingarm.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

So it looks like PackRat's electric drive system is going to be good old DC, and probably series-wound.  I have been following Miz's progress with rewinding an AC motor, with hopes of rewinding this little AC motor for PackRat, but the cost and time just aren't conducive to the goals of this project. Other than that, the only commercially available systems (HPEVS) that fit the size/weight/performance goals are too expensive for this project. Maybe it will make sense someday in the future but, for now, I can purchase a 7-8" forklift motor, forklift/golf cart parts, and be on the road - then upgrade slowly over time.

Viva la DC!


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

I took a day off yesterday to work on my bigger picture biz plans, but did have the vehicles in my head all day. By the end of the day, when my brain was pretty near complete and total burnout, I started thinking about driving PackRat. Just as with Schism, thoughts of roasting in 90-degree, angry, Ohio, sunlight didn't seem too fun. Just as before I started to realize that I would probably end up waiting until evening and missing a lot of good cruising time.

I started by just chopping, cropping, and grafting, a rendering of Schism's rag top on the car in Photoshop, but that roof is far outside the scope of this project, in time and materials, so I kept chopping until I came up with a two-part, folding, sunshade. My thinking is that the seat would flip forward, and the top would fold in half and then tuck against the back of it, then flip the seat back down - convertible!  No idea whether or not this would really work yet - exhaust heat is one concern - but, if so, it would solve the problem.









It would simply be two pieces of foam, fitted with hinges, and laminated with carbon fiber; done. It's not really adding much to the project because I was planning to create the trunk before, so same foam, a little more design time, same machine/lay-up process...


_Edit:_ I forgot the burgundy seat pad came from a discussion with a resident leather guy. I asked him about doing a seat pad, and since I have no other color going on PackRat, he thought of using this leather. I kind of like it. It's like putting a full-color person in a b&w film...


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

I cut a temporary fixture on the ShopBot to properly align the front axle pieces. This is only for alignment - as soon as there were enough tack welds to keep everything in place it was removed and clamped down to the welding table to keep it flat and true.









Here's the foundation, tacked together. I am going to make a center rib from vertical and horizontal strips, that will form a lightweight semi-I-beam structure. Between the tubing, heavy end plates, and center rib, I'm hoping it will be rigid enough. Considering the fact that the entire car is expected to weigh in around 500lbs, and not even enough of that is on the front wheels, I don't think there will be a lot of stress on it...


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

After a couple days and many hours of thinking and modeling, I have reached the conclusion that the roof is just not going to happen. I need at least 16" above the back of the seat for head clearance, and no matter now I shake it the proportions are just off. Design-wise, half of that would be ideal, and twelve is pushing it (plus still too low to fit under), and I refuse to kill the car with a roof that doesn't fit. Evenings and cloudy days it is... 

I don't regret the time spent on it though, because that's my design process. I love to explore the outer edges, and settle back to what's best for the application. That way I know I have covered all the bases, and the final design is everything it could/should be.

Viva la roadster!


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

This...





...is what I'm after with PackRat.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

I never consider PackRat having a soft top, or any top, at all.

I've seen an Old Morgan three wheeler with the top up and it looks like a big fabric bubble that is ridiculously over sized compared to the car.

Also it would be really unfair to your honey if it started to rain on a drive.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Woodsmith said:


> I never considered PackRat having a soft top, or any top, at all...


Neither did I originally, but you know me - no design stone unturned. I can continue building my speedster now and sleep well at night, knowing it is all it can be. 





Woodsmith said:


> ...I've seen an Old Morgan three wheeler with the top up and it looks like a big fabric bubble that is ridiculously over sized compared to the car...


The minimalist design I was trying looked like a plastic cafeteria chair strapped on the roof, upside down.  





Woodsmith said:


> ...Also it would be really unfair to your honey if it started to rain on a drive...


Lol! I had a couple thoughts on that:

One, I am soooo solitary, boring, and focused on my work that the honey thing just isn't working in my life; and appears to be losing ground. I've had Scrape running for seven months and never made the honey seat because the subject of a passenger only came up once, and I really wouldn't have wanted to put her on my back... She's the burgundy-haired woman in the one video, at the dinner table, flirting when I rode by. The flirting was fun, but she wasn't my cup of tea. I never really even thought about it after that...

Women are generally pretty smart and intuitive and can sense that there's really not a place for them. I'm also honest and won't try to con one into believing I'm going to ease up on my work so she can _fit in_; because I won't. 

Two, I do think about it a lot - I think more out of habit, because for the majority of my ~half-century I've always had at least one around. That probably sounds corse but its a truth I've finally realized about myself - I've really, always, sort of unknowingly, treated them as projects and/or accessories, not a real part of my life. Now I know.

Oops, rambling - I thought about a slide-out, or bolt on, honey seat that puts her off to the side, like she's in a side car...


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Nothing major here, just an update to the art. I removed the top from the best version, and had a little fun with the windscreen - it's the '09 Packard vanity mirror style "windshield" blowing in the wind! 









Other than that, I have just been planning all weekend - trying to distinguish the roles and responsibilities each vehicle has in my bigger picture plans. There are a lot of just-because-I-had-them-and-need-to-get-it-rolling/running parts on Schism, that I really don't want on it, that might help get PackRat rolling/running sooner; while simultaneously un-compromising Schism. Twist your brain and tongue around that!


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

ROFL! I just noticed the rating (1 star = terrible) - I guess PackRat isn't so much appreciated...


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## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

toddshotrods said:


> ROFL! I just noticed the rating (1 star = terrible) - I guess PackRat isn't so much appreciated...


Yeah, I noticed that too and thought it was a bit mean-spirited. My guess is the terrible rating has something to do with that big fat ICE behind the seat... Ditch that thing and put in a real electric motor. The rinky dink little NEMA frame job that's in there now looks like it might be the *starter* for the ICE, and not a hybrid assist.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Hey Tesseract! How's life treatin ya?!





Tesseract said:


> Yeah, I noticed that too and thought it was a bit mean-spirited...


I just think it's funny. 





Tesseract said:


> ...My guess is the terrible rating has something to do with that big fat ICE behind the seat... Ditch that thing and put in a real electric motor...


That's what I figured too. For now, I'll just be content with my lonely star.  (We need a good rolling on the floor laughing smiley)






Tesseract said:


> ...The rinky dink little NEMA frame job that's in there now looks like it might be the *starter* for the ICE, and not a hybrid assist.


That's just a placeholder until I find the right DC motor, but it will actually be about that size. I'm thinking a 6.7/7", motor. It's actually a good selling point for electric, because I can explain to people that the little electric motor can move PackRat around just like the "big fat" ICE, has one moving part compared to the ICE's ~100, cost per mile, etc, etc.

I'm not building it for that_, _but I will most likely point all that out_..._


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Well, thank you to those of you who felt compelled to swing PackRat's rating a couple stars to the North!  We feel the love! 


I bored the tapered ball joint stem holes out to .500" today (have to get a .625" end mill to finish them), which was enough to get them mocked up on the car. To facilitate that I cut mock-up wheel discs from scrap plastic sheet - much easier to shift around than a full wheel and tire. I cut 23" and 24" diameter discs to see which size tires I like best - after I get it stable. I have the 24" disc on now.

















I have two different suspension designs, parallel leafs, and radius rods with coil-overs. I think the cost and time is about the same either way, so it's really a matter of which one works best, functionally and aesthetically.

The parallel leafs fit the 1909 theme better, and the radius rod/coil-over setup would be more street rod-ish. I kind of prefer the street rod look, and it's not like it's even close to being faithful to an actual 1909 vehicle... If, after fully exploring both options, I don't see any red flags I will probably start cutting and grinding my way into the street rod plan.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

I decided on the street rod style front suspension, and dove in today. The first step was to get the radius rod frame mounts underway, as that's probably the most involved fabrication aspect of this setup. I had to clip the old frame rail crossmember ends off and grind the frame flush and smooth there. Then, I fabricated caps from .250" steel. They'll be sunk into the crossmember, welded in, and ground flush. They're chamfered on the edges for full weld penetration and surface area; and they're hammered to provide a gradual curve there. The stud that mounts the rear rod end gets welded right in the center of it. The hole is so that the stud can be plug welded from the inside too.








In my _heart_, I want to go crazy and build an internal brace that runs from end to end, with a plug-welded plate in the center of the crossmember, but my head keeps trying to convince me that it's completely unnecessary on a ~500lb car with a .750" rod end at the pivot, and enough weld to support a high rise building. 


I turned the hex down on the stud bolts, and will grind them to fit the curved plate, and have the right angle off of the frame tomorrow.










This is a sneak peek at what I'm building. I love the salt flats racer look PackRat has developed, and want to emphasize that with the up-swept radius rods. The angle won't be quite that radical, as the lower mount will be under the main axle tube. It looses a maybe a half-inch of wheelbase, and gains a few degrees of caster on bump travel, but the aesthetic is worth whatever penalty it brings. I rode street-legal dragbikes, with 35-40 degrees of rake, and tons of trail, for years, so it should feel kind of familiar. Plus, it's really not running a lot of caster - it will just look like it is.


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## Joey (Oct 12, 2007)

This is starting to get good.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Joey said:


> This is starting to get good.


Thanks Joey!  I'm _falling in love_... 

Wish me luck. The goal is she's on the shop floor, rolling and steering at the conclusion of this month, and on to systems (making it move) next month.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

I am so enjoying this project (except the ICE part  ) and really like where it is going. 
I was hoping for the leaf spring front end but seeing what you have I think you made the right choice.

Could you give the appearance of an up swept radius arm, without the geometry of it, by offsetting the mounting points from the ends of the arm?



I want to get on with mine but have a list of 'Honey-Do's' to get on with first (Arch will glare at me for saying that, she's only just worked out what Honey-Do's are, thanks to Commander Hadfield's Tweets!  ).
I have a bedroom and bathroom to complete before the end of the year so we can get married. I made that a priority last year so I'd best keep to it. 

I might sneak in a chassis and steering column in the meantime though.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

Joey said:


> This is starting to get good.


Starting to get good?

This was good when Todd was offering out the ice creams!


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## TomA (Mar 26, 2009)

Hey, Todd! Been a long time...

I had a couple of (perhaps not so) academic thoughts you might want to challenge your ME Amanda or other mathy interns to look into:

1. What is the shear strength of the threaded shafts on your front axle rod ends? What kind of loads are they likely (and unlikely, but going) to encounter? Those look like the diciest part of your design to me. I love the use of modern spindles, but it has put you into an axle set up that is screaming for some engineering analysis...

2. How are you going to get your weight distribution closer to the 1/3 per wheel (66% two wheel axle, 33% single wheel) weight distribution that conventional wisdom suggests is ideal for a trike? If you can't, how could your engineering team anticipate (model?) how this vehicle will behave on the road?

On the academic side, you might consider making Walter H. Korff's Designing Tomorrow's Cars (1980, M-C Publications, ISBN 0-9603850-0-2) required reading for your interns. Its an astonishing book by a true master, and I've really never seen anything like it. Korff designed airplanes in the 1930s, patented the 1/2 motorcycle reverse trike, did the aerodynamics on the Goldenrod, and has a lot to say in this book about everything from the DAF Variomatic to starting your own auto company. Required reading for an automotive engineer, I would say, and while the book is long out of print it shows up now and then on ebay.

Greetings from sunny Perth, Australia, the remotest city on earth, but I work out _way _of town...

Tom


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Woodsmith said:


> I am so enjoying this project (except the ICE part ) and really like where it is going. ...


Thanks Woody!  It's a funny thing for me because it was a spontaneous decision, based on needs and circumstances, that is paying off hugely for me, personally. I really did need this project, on so many levels. 






Woodsmith said:


> ...Could you give the appearance of an up swept radius arm, without the geometry of it, by offsetting the mounting points from the ends of the arm?...


The only real way to solve it is raise the rear pivot. It's where it pivots, in relation to the axle, that makes the difference. I don't want that higher, admittedly because of aesthetic concerns. I've just decided to live with it, unless I really don't like the way it drives. If that's the case, I can always tuck my tail and revise it.

Schism has design mixed with serious race function mixed with business needs - this is my toy. My canvas to have fun with pure design, at whatever cost it costs me. As mentioned, I rode my dragbikes on the street with full straight-line race chassis, and I absolutely loved it. Two of them were even "hard tail" (no suspension) with radical rake and trail, almost seven feet between the axles, and three inches of ground clearance. Rear suspension was my (admittedly 20-something year-old) knees (stand over over big bumps), and I had to turn like a cement truck, but they were so much fun to be on.






Woodsmith said:


> ...I want to get on with mine but have a list of 'Honey-Do's' to get on with first (Arch will glare at me for saying that, she's only just worked out what Honey-Do's are, thanks to Commander Hadfield's Tweets!).
> 
> I have a bedroom and bathroom to complete before the end of the year so we can get married. I made that a priority last year so I'd best keep to it.
> 
> I might sneak in a chassis and steering column in the meantime though...


Hurry up! Your projects play a big role in my willingness to push my aged old bones off the edge of the ideological cliff!  Scrape because of the tractor, and now PackRat because of your trike obsession - some of the most fun I've had in years - cheers old friend! 





Woodsmith said:


> Starting to get good?
> 
> This was good when Todd was offering out the ice creams!


I don't have room for a cooler anymore, so maybe I can carry a bag of ice cream flavored hard candy. 







TomA said:


> Hey, Todd! Been a long time...
> 
> ...Greetings from sunny Perth, Australia, the remotest city on earth, but I work out _way _of town...


Hey Tom! Indeed! I hope life is treating you well down there! 







TomA said:


> ...I had a couple of (perhaps not so) academic thoughts you might want to challenge your ME Amanda or other mathy interns to look into:
> 
> ...On the academic side, you might consider making Walter H. Korff's Designing Tomorrow's Cars (1980, M-C Publications, ISBN 0-9603850-0-2) required reading for your interns. Its an astonishing book by a true master, and I've really never seen anything like it. Korff designed airplanes in the 1930s, patented the 1/2 motorcycle reverse trike, did the aerodynamics on the Goldenrod, and has a lot to say in this book about everything from the DAF Variomatic to starting your own auto company. Required reading for an automotive engineer, I would say, and while the book is long out of print it shows up now and then on ebay...


Except for Amanda, I have my intern program in suspended animation, while I retool the plans a bit. I have her fully engulfed in getting the Inhaler together for its new owner (Columbus Idea Foundry, where it has been for the last two years).

I will try to remember that, and snag a copy or few some day to have on the shelf for when I ramp the program back up... Thanks.







TomA said:


> ...1. What is the shear strength of the threaded shafts on your front axle rod ends? What kind of loads are they likely (and unlikely, but going) to encounter? Those look like the diciest part of your design to me. I love the use of modern spindles, but it has put you into an axle set up that is screaming for some engineering analysis...


I agree, but wanted to explore it - the old fashioned way - on the asphalt. The key is the weight goal - 500lbs total vehicle weight, and the fact that I am using .625" automotive-size rods ends. These are the cheesey ones, but the plan is to upgrade them to the strongest precision rod ends available, eventually.

The decision to use them, and to use .625" ones, is based on history/experience. Street rods have used this size on vehicles 3-4x the weight for years. Drag cars put an enormous amount of stress on them with 4-link suspension and wrinkle walls - same size. I know I'm using them quite a bit differently, but my mind tells me they'll work. If I'm wrong, I will admit it and fix it.

This is admittedly form over function, and true backyard engineering. I will do the analysis live, on the asphalt, in controlled testing to see what happens. If I break it, I'll fix it or replace it.

I am, admittedly, sidestepping the traditional engineering approach a bit, to prove a point. Sometimes engineers spend countless hours designing stuff that when put to the test - breaks. Sometimes that guy or gal in the backyard builds stuff, on a feeling, that _classically trained_ engineers say will fail - that never does. In my three decades of constantly pushing the limits of design and "engineering", I have really had very few failures - so why not push it a little more?! 






TomA said:


> ...2. How are you going to get your weight distribution closer to the 1/3 per wheel (66% two wheel axle, 33% single wheel) weight distribution that conventional wisdom suggests is ideal for a trike? If you can't, how could your engineering team anticipate (model?) how this vehicle will behave on the road?...


I'm not; they won't have the opportunity. I'm literally going to see what happens when it isn't. I know what I've read is supposed to happen - so let's see what really does. Ultimately, I will adjust my driving style to match what I end up with - as was the case with the aforementioned dragbikes.

Worse case scenario, I have to hang some lead plates on the front (under the hood) to get it to go where I point it, and it ends up a couple hundred pounds obese; or _magically_ lose a couple hundred pounds off the back, with a bazillion-buck obtainium/ceramic ICE engine, graphene wound/obtainium-framed electric motor, and carbon-nano-tube 5lb/6kw battery pack! 

I'm being sarcastic/silly, but my point is real. I will see what I end up with and then start designing and engineering my way into something I like.

That's what is making this such a fun project. It's a journey, without bounds, and only one expectation - smiles.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

toddshotrods said:


> I'm not; they won't have the opportunity. I'm literally going to see what happens when it isn't. I know what I've read is supposed to happen - so let's see what really does. Ultimately, I will adjust my driving style to match what I end up with - as was the case with the aforementioned dragbikes.
> 
> Worse case scenario, I have to hang some lead plates on the front (under the hood) to get it to go where I point it, and it ends up a couple hundred pounds obese; or _magically_ lose a couple hundred pounds off the back, with a bazillion-buck obtainium/ceramic ICE engine, graphene wound/obtainium-framed electric motor, and carbon-nano-tube 5lb/6kw battery pack!
> 
> ...


That's the same sort of issue I am ignoring on my EVan-Tricycle. Using it to carry a load over the single real wheel leads to all sorts of weight distribution issues, mine the other way around to yours.

I may find that even with 110kg of motor hanging off the back of the chassis I might not have enough traction unless I carry my tool boxes everywhere.
I can't shift unladen weight to the back either as I then lose stability when loaded.

Design says I should just use four wheels.
Principle says:


> *Do what you can, Where you are, With what you have!*
> _(Teddy Roosevelt)_


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Woodsmith said:


> ...Design says I should just use four wheels...


Bah Humbug! 




Woodsmith said:


> ...Principle says:
> 
> 
> > *Do what you can, Where you are, With what you have!*
> > _(Teddy Roosevelt)_


Go with Teddy! 



Today was a loonnng day. Ten minute tasks seemed to take hours, and I didn't accomplish half of what I intended, but things are moving forward. I evened the lower halves of the radius arms up, chamfered the ends, and fitted the rod ends. I have wooden mock-up bungs in the frame side, just to make sure everything is going to work as hoped, before I start buying stuff.










Then I spent quite a while readjusting everything on the car to get them in place. Tomorrow, I will work on fitting the studs to the plates, and hopefully get them tacked on, so I can start designing, cutting, drilling, and grinding the axle brackets.









The hood is coming along. All the panels in this pic have been bonded together, except for the "doors" and grille. I have mixed opinions on whether I want the grille to be a part of the hood, or separate. I'm almost tempted to hammer it out of aluminum sheet...

I forgot: I also have the hood and grille dropped down about three-quarters of an inch in front. I'm going to stare at it for a day or so, but I think I like it.


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

Why the bent rods?


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Duncan said:


> Why the bent rods?


They make me


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

With those disc wheels, foam hood, and single seat, that view makes it look like one hell of a soap box racer!


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Woodsmith said:


> With those disc wheels, foam hood, and single seat, that view makes it look like one hell of a soap box racer!


It's not much bigger than one. 

It's pretty tight inside that hood - if I weren't a walking stick figure I wouldn't be able to get my legs in there, and I have been working on being able to pull one out, while in motion, for when the inevitable cramps set in. I'm thinking of little running boards or pegs on the outside, so I can stick a leg and foot out there for a while - like highway pegs on a touring bike or cruiser.

Again, I don't care. This is my fun design project - I will adjust driving to match what I end up with. As for bigger people driving it - the hood is cosmetic and will be easily removable. So, normal sized people will just be on a big kart, with their knees folded up to their shoulders!  If I ever sell it, the seat can be changed, a new hood made, etc - small simple adjustments, to "tailor" it to fit the new owner.

All in all though, it's still more comfortable than Schism. I don't really want to get up, when I sit in it.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Woodsmith said:


> With those disc wheels...


I have the 23" discs on it in those last few pics, and the smaller size definitely looks better. I also like the skinny look, and have begun brainstorming for the cheapest way to get the narrowest wheel and tire setup possible.


*Option One:*
Use the 15x6" aluminum wheels with 185/60R15" tires. Kind of wide, but relatively light and cheap.


* Option Two:*
Spacesaver rims with a 125/80R15 tires - probably a couple hundred bucks. I could even run motorcycle tires, for even more the salt flats racer aesthetic, on 14" Cavalier/Sunbird(fire) spacesavers - I can get a 120/70R14" scooter tire, and even HR rated versions. I could probably squeeze a 130mm tire on the Honda 750 rear wheel, until I get around to having a wider rim laced up on it... The downside is the heavy steel wheels.


* Option Three:*
A pair of custom 15x4" smoothie steel wheels, in the bolt pattern I have. I contacted a company to get a price, and might look into a sponsorship deal for something like this.


*Option Four:*
I find really intriguing but possibly expensive/time-consuming, is to machine custom hubs for motorcycle wheels that would accept the bearing for the automotive spindles I have. As awesome as this seems, I can't see really doing it right now because it's counterproductive to the goals. As it sits, I just need a couple Fiero front calipers, which are aluminum, and reasonably cheap on eBay, and the narrowest/cheapest wheel tire I can find - all bolt on/easy stuff.

All options, except for the new smoothie wheels would be covered with custom carbon fiber land speed style wheel discs.

Decisions, decisions...


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

The reason I am doing so much thinking today is I woke up with my allergies on yellow alert - meaning the grinding I had in mind to fit the studs to the plates is probably really not a good idea. As it is, my nose is not running, but breathing is pretty labored and my energy level is pretty low, due to insufficient oxygen supply. I didn't notice it then, but this probably started yesterday, causing the slow work progress... 

What's a guy to do? Design work, of course!  I know I said I was going to stay away from the .250" steel plate after the axle plates, but this is irresistible. I want to fire up the plasma and start whittling them, but the allergy thing says maybe not, yet.









The rod end in the capped tube, lying on the fixture, fits on top at the axle end.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Breathing became easier so I decided to fire up the plasma and at least get the plates cut. Tomorrow, hopefully, I'll be able to do some grinding.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Schism has been cleared for take-off as an all-out (street-legal) race car, an exercise in engineering; now that PackRat has been born and given the mantle of bearing my _pure design_ mandate. There are a few design items on Schism that have nothing to do with power and speed, that will now be pursued on this project.

First up is my "Spirit of OCD" hood ornament. It really serves no other purpose than being an aesthetic adornment. Here on PackRat, I am losing the TPD emblem "motor meter" and hood trim, and just using the wings. Also, because PackRat has this innate ability, even more so than Scrape, to provide maximum rewards for very small investments I can simplify the production process. It will be cast in clear resin or glass, and lit from the base with blue LED(s); in contrast to plans to cast it in metal and have it plated on Schism.

























Also evident in this pic is the fact that my allergies had settled down, so I was able to spend a few hours grinding the radius arm pieces. Next, I will set up a quick fixture and tack them together, then start on the axle brackets...


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

I love illuminated hood mascots! 

We're not allowed them here unless they are 'safe' and fold away on impact. They would also get vandalized or stolen I think.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Woodsmith said:


> I love illuminated hood mascots! ...


The funny thing is I've never really been a fan of them, at all. I did always kind of like the wings on old cars, and could appreciate the art in Rolls' and Caddy's "women of the hood" , but never, ever, wanted one on the hood of my cars.

I'm chasing something (in design) here, and it just works. I was trying to pursue it with Schism but, as mentioned, ended up with a mixed bag of themes, intentions, and ideas. PackRat is just vain enough to really pull it off! 






Woodsmith said:


> ...We're not allowed them here unless they are 'safe' and fold away on impact. They would also get vandalized or stolen I think.


I knew Rolls' tucks away. I thought that was a proprietary feature, not a mandated one. Live and learn.

The ornaments themselves are legal here, not so sure about my blue lighting. Technically, only white or yellow lights are allowed on the front. With the blue hue of the new HID lights, and the aftermarket copycat bulbs, I will probably be okay though, since this will just be a subtle glow. I want it to be "ghostly".


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

One month in, and this has progressed from a possible idea to a budding vehicle. Whether or not I will actually have a running vehicle in two more months remains to be seen, but I think I'll be a winner either way. 









Happy Anniversary little PackRat!


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

I did the final fitting, made a quick fixture, and tacked the radius rods together today. Just makes me !









On the car. The poster board patterns are the beginning of the axle brackets. I hope to have those sorted out, cut out, ground out, and tacked in (place) before the week is over; and move on to the coil-over mounts.









Nothing like a full scratch-built project...


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

I do like all these 'fiddly' 'curvy' details! 

Only problem is that it starts making me want to do likewise on my trike, which will mean it will cost (even) more and take (even) longer to be built!


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Woodsmith said:


> I do like all these 'fiddly' 'curvy' details!
> ...


Thanks Woody! 





Woodsmith said:


> ...Only problem is that it starts making me want to do likewise on my trike, which will mean it will cost (even) more and take (even) longer to be built!


Initially, I was concerned about chasing my "pure design" goals with this project, thinking it would end up stalled - out of energy and money; but, so far, it is producing the opposite effect - it's driving me to keep at it, and pushing my creativity to make what I have work and "look the part". Win-win, so far...


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Bumping, want my pics on a fresh page.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

The radius rod axle brackets have been ground to shape, and the studs have been ground to fit, and tacked to, the frame mount plates, so I did a quick mock up.

























I still have to do the plug welds on the studs, on the inside of the plates, before I can tack those in place; and I have a tiny bit of fitting to do to tack the axle mounting plates to the axle. That's a couple hours' work, and then the coil-over mounts. It feels really good to be this close on the front suspension. I am just going to tack weld everything for now, and move back to the drivetrain and rear suspension. I want everything in place before welding anything permanently. I should be able to sit it on the floor and roll it around with the tack welds.

I love this front suspension!


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

I pressed pause on the fabrication work for a couple days to put some serious thought into _what _I plan to do with this car. How I hang the coil-overs, and what wheels and tires I choose, can have a huge impact on how the car drives and performs. Ultimately, I decided that I want to stay the course on the pure design flow I have going, and just live with whatever it produces, functionally.

Just like I'll have to live with Schism's incivility on the street, due to being a serious race car, first and foremost; I will have to live with PackRat being a little finicky in public, due to being a show car, first and foremost.

That being solved, I will probably start on the coil-over mounts tomorrow. I am going to mount them at a pretty extreme angle - for the aesthetic, and to provide lateral control for the axle. Once I get that wrapped up and can get the steering sorted out, and start on the other end of the car.


On wheels and tires: I have been thinking a lot lately about running motorcycle wheels. The back is a no-brainer - just mount the original Honda 750 wire wheel... Up front, for a matching aesthetic, I have been toying with the idea of running 17" wire front wheels from a small motorcycle, with 90/90-17 tires. Super skinny, all the way around (120mm in back), and really lightweight. If I get a motorcycle wheel that had a disc brake, I can machine an adapter that bolts in place of the brake disc and to the car rotors; maintaining the heavier duty spindles and bearings, and more powerful automotive brakes. The single disc wheels look finished on the other side, requiring only a small cap over the bearing. Even better, I can put a center bolt through the bearings into the adapter plate, for more support, and the "knock-off" look.  This all came from looking at it with the plastic mock-up wheel discs as I work on the front suspension. I love the narrow, land speed racer, look. The goal would be the vintage speedster/roadster look - the ones that had the little, narrow, motorcycle style, wheels and tires.

Of course, the penalty would be handling with much less rubber on the road at any given time...


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## ken will (Dec 19, 2009)

toddshotrods said:


> I am going to mount them at a pretty extreme angle - for the aesthetic, and to provide lateral control for the axle.


That should eliminate the need for a Panhard bar.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

ken will said:


> That should eliminate the need for a Panhard bar.


That's the goal. PackRat's "snout" is too narrow and low to even partially conceal a panhard bar, to get it to work properly and be benign in how it affects handling, so I was going to end up fabricating a custom Watt's link. Knowing me - that would be weeks of playing... 

If this works, it solves a few problems quickly and neatly. It also helps compensate for the ridiculous spring rates I have right now, until I can get real corner weights and purchase the right springs - and get rid of that yellow! 

Here's a handy chart for anyone doing something similar to figure out what spring rates they need, according to the weight, intended usage, angle of the shocks, etc.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

I've been so lost in cut-n-grind, I forgot to take pictures and post updates!  Sunday I machined a couple female rod ends down to kick off the frame mounts for the shocks. In the name of design, I am mounting the, nitrogen-charged, double-adjustable, coil-overs upside-down. No idea whether that will affect their performance and, frankly, I don't really care.  It's how they work best on PackRat's front end. The rod ends are because on the motorcycle shock's lower mount (which is now the upper mount) is a clevis style end. The rod end gives it the ability to pivot and move with the axle - no bind. Okay, I do care a little...

Anyway, I cut the main part of the mount from - wait for it - .250" steel , and welded the rod ends directly to the plates. They're all steel rod ends, but I welded about four inches, then let them cool, and checked to make sure they were still moving properly, welded four more inches, etc. In all, each one has sixteen inches of weld joining the rod ends to the plate, and I really burned these welds in deep!  Imagine fitting two-toothed (the machined rod end) and three-toothed (the plates) forks together and welding all the way around the teeth where they mesh (they were also chamfered for welding) - then blending the welds.

I made the bases and gussets from .125" plate. I didn't blend the welds on those yet, but _might_ later.









They're not finished yet, but except for the mounting nuts, they're far enough for me to move on and return to them. They'll have nuts welded in to allow me to bolt them to the frame, and replace them if they go bad, or I decide to do a, CAD/CNC, billet aluminum version later.









Next up, I need to turn the bushing/cone spacers to center them, and reduce the hole size to 10mm. Then, I start on the lower, axle, mounts.

More to come...


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

The spacers are done. There are some minor flaws, but they are what they're going to be for now. I was working on an early 40's South Bend lathe that needs some love and attention.

















Next up, the lower shock mounts. I started working on a pattern, but I'm just not into it today... I need to make some decisions on how they will be made and attached to the axle, and I would like to be a little more enthusiastic about what I'm doing for that.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

Looks good to me!
I like it when you get all fiddly in your design and making.

Is there a practical reason for the units being upside down or is it pure aesthetics?


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Woodsmith said:


> Looks good to me!
> I like it when you get all fiddly in your design and making....


Thanks Woody! 






Woodsmith said:


> ...Is there a practical reason for the units being upside down or is it pure aesthetics?


It's purely aesthetic. They have the nitrogen reservoir incorporated into the shock body and I didn't like the way they looked on top, beside the hood. 


I think I am going to make the lower mounts bolt-on pieces, from .250" steel, so I'll have the option of replacing them with CAD/CNC billet aluminum parts later. The upper and lower mounts together, in billet aluminum would probably only save a few pounds, so it would be as much about aesthetics as weight savings. I was concerned about using the heavy steel plate on this car, but the parts I have made so far, are not as heavy as they might seem to be. Heavy steel plate is so strong it actually allows me to make a smaller part, partially negating the weight gain...


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

The _mouse-eared_ lower shock mounts are underway!  The ears are to reduce metal mass in the easiest area; between them. Next, I'll drill the holes and weld the bushings to the plates. They're to space the mounts out past the lower tube, as they'll bolt to the steel plates on either side of the axle. This design places most of the loading and stress on those plates, leaving the bottom tube to just keep the wheels articulating along the same planes. Even the torsional rigidity is provided by the radius rods and associated brackets.









I will weld sculptured pieces of angle to the bottoms to provide double shear mounts for the shocks. I'm not sure if I will do any more of my typical obsessive detailing on the plates, as they'll likely be one of the things I replace down the road, and will be mostly concealed by the shocks until then. They are heavy enough that the few pounds of unsprung weight that would be lost are easy justification for me to spend countless hours in CAD and babysitting a CNC machine to upgrade later.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

I had to step away for a few days again. I am trying my best to see if I can actually have PackRat running by July, but this deadline stuff takes the enjoyment out of building a project like this sometimes. When I start to hit that wall, I just back off and come back fresh. I figure it's better to lose a couple days here and there and work like a mad man when I'm into it, than risk total burnout and a completely stalled project. The deadline is self-imposed anyway, and not critical to the big picture.


I picked up where I left off and drilled the upper mounting holes in the lower shock mount plates, and tacked the bushings on. I center-punched and drilled .125" pilot holes in one plate, clamped a scrap piece of plate to that and drilled matching pilot holes in that, creating a template for drilling the axle plates, then clamped the two shock mount plates together and drilled matching plot holes in the second one. That's an easy way to get perfectly matching holes, and parts that slip together like they were carved on a CNC, from a CAD file. When I got the bushings tacked on, I ran the .500" inch bit through the plates and bushings to make sure those holes were still perfectly aligned (I had bolts in them to fix them on the plate for welding). I will run the bit through again after welding. Then I cut and machined a couple spacer blocks to reach out to the shock eye. I cut them off, machined the ends pretty square, then bored the shock mounting holes in them on the manual mill. These will be welded to the plates and blended and shaped. 











The holes are bored at the 6-degree caster angle (amount the top of the axle leans backwards, for straight-line stability), so that the shock can be mounted vertical. This was a little extra touch I like to do. The rod ends in the upper shock mounts would have allowed the shock to lay back 6-degrees, even with the upper mounts completely vertical, but why not start them off centered as much as possible?


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

If all goes well, later today I will have the front suspension all tacked together and ready to support the weight of the car; then it's on to steering. I did a lot of cut-n-grind, drilling, machining, and fitting Tuesday and yesterday.

In the meantime, I have been working on the Spirit of OCD, usually at night while sitting behind my computer. I smoothed out all the rough areas, added some detail in places, and started sculpting the feature lines in the wings. When I machined it, I purposely used a ball-end mill too big to fit, so that it would just create a small depression/outline of the shape. That's because I wanted to hand carve them so that light from above creates a shadow and light effect. That's accomplished with a deeply undercut top wall, with a sharp edge, and blended lower edge that "collects" light. When I complete the rough-in, I will start working in surfacing primer to really detail the shape, and develop a smooth final surface for the resin casting.









This is my work. This whole scratch-built project is just to provide a canvas for me to do what I really do. The switch from Schism to PackRat was because this is a more pure design platform, and provides a much larger return/outcome.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

Looks nice.

What colour/finish will it have? 
In its current material it looks like a piece of bone.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Woodsmith said:


> Looks nice.
> 
> What colour/finish will it have?
> In its current material it looks like a piece of bone.


Thanks Woody! 

I'm trying to decide that. I've been waiting to see it smoothed out and detailed, and then on the car again, to get a feel for what will look best. The options are a clear or tinted resin, or perhaps a real metal casting. I _think_ I am going to avoid shiny plating like chrome and nickel, but brushed in one of those could work. Cast aluminum with copper or bronze plating are also options. If money were no object, I would have it cast in titanium, just for bragging rights! 

If I do the clear or tinted resin casting, I would want to light it. I have been thinking about that, and how I would get the lighting to spread as evenly as possible throughout the piece. I even thought about adding some metallic flake to the resin, maybe a couple/few different types so that they sparkle when lit; electronically or by sunlight.

The mold is going to be fun!  It's going to take quite a few sections to be able to cast this. For resin, I can probably create a silicone rubber mold assembly and get a really nice casting. For metal casting, I will probably cast a wax plug in that mold for investment or lost-wax casting. Either way, a lot of work. At my normal rate, this would be a very expensive little pair of wings!


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

Colour changing LEDs and some areas of the wings frosted and other areas clear and glittery.

The LED could change colour depending on throttle position or state of charge, or just for the fun of it.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Woodsmith said:


> Colour changing LEDs and some areas of the wings frosted and other areas clear and glittery.
> 
> The LED could change colour depending on throttle position or state of charge, or just for the fun of it.


I'm not that much fun!  Notice, I've already started wandering from _simple_ cast, illuminated, resin to cast metal... 



It's not ready to hold up its own weight yet, but the front suspension is tacked together enough for me to position everything and move on to steering. I decided that I would rather get the steering roughed in and come back to this for a couple reasons. One, I want to make sure everything works together before finalizing anything with more welds. Two, I need to get away from this front suspension for a bit. I've been grinding away, quite literally, for the last month...

The overweight axle:








The bottoms of the lower shock mounts are square and unfinished because the double shear loops still have to be fabricated and welded on there. I won't do those until just before it's time to drive the car, or maybe just after it actually runs. The plates and spacer blocks are more than strong enough to support the car. The double shear is to help deal with the abuse I will subject it to - playing, not racing. 












On the car:


















And with the hood:


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

One word:

Cool!


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Woodsmith said:


> One word:
> 
> Cool!


Thanks Woody! I hope it works half as well as it looks! 

I've started on the steering. I'm chopping my old Honda Accord steering rack down into a single arm, cross steer, rack and pinion unit, to fit a center-seat, solid axle, reverse trike! Took a quick break to watch the evening news - back to the milling machine in fifteen...


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

toddshotrods said:


> ...chopping my old Honda Accord steering rack down into a single arm, cross steer, rack and pinion unit, to fit a center-seat, solid axle, reverse trike! Took a quick break to watch the evening news - back to the milling machine in fifteen...


The Honda rack had a long steel tube capping the right side of the aluminum case. First, I took as much as I could out of that, and tacked the end back on, to create an end cap. The end has a bushing and o-ring in it to keep the shaft centered, sealed, and moving freely.










Then, I chopped the end of the shaft off, leaving a little under an inch sticking out when the rack is at full right lock.










The power steering crap was in a chunk of steel and aluminum, bolted to the bottom of the rack. I milled them both down to create a block-off plate and end cap. There are o-rings that seal the ports under the plate, and an o-ring on the cap, to keep the internals sealed. I am going to fabricate a tab and weld it to the plate that will have a pin that fits in the hole on the cap, to keep it in place.











Here's my little rack! 










Now to figure out where it goes and start making mounts...









I know, clean it up, already!


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

It took me a while to reset my brain from the _what-was-needed-vs-what-I-wanted-struggle_ for a steering wheel on Schism, to the near total freedom in design in applying this concept to PackRat. I worked on it for a bit to get the process started, then let it all simmer in my brain for a while.

The only set conditions are I like the basic aesthetic of what I had already developed, and I want to use the little Grant steering wheel as a foundation (not the aluminum deal I was going to do for Schism). Something about this simple little cheapo wheel fits PackRat, though by the time I finish with it I will have turned a $25 steering wheel into a 4-5 figure obsession! 

Here's the revised rim.









I simplified the spoke landings a touch, and made the wood pull deeper inward to meet the steel spokes of the deep-dished Grant wheel. I also eliminated the Ebony wood inlays and simplified the mounting points to three simple "pegs". They'll basically be a metal ball on a threaded stud, mainly there to hold the wood rim in place (light clamping force). Torque will likely be managed by lugs on the steel rim, that fit in sockets in the wood rim.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

I cut a wooden template to make sure I had the upper spokes rotated to the right degrees (good thing because I was a couple degrees short on the first one).










Then I dove in, violating the rules of order Woody gave me:


Woodsmith said:


> ...With the mounting bosses, try to start with large radii changes where it meets the rim, tightening that up with each machining stage. Maybe with 2" radii first time, 1 3/4" the second time, 1 5/8" third time and so on until you are near finished with something approaching 1/2" radii before hand working to the finished size. The changes, like the overall material removal would, should be in diminishing quantities and some of the later passes may remove only high spots each time...


This darn thing has been so freaking stable over the past two years, which also brings it to having been aged for five years, that I decided to roll the dice on it being able to tolerate and accelerated machining process. So I did this: 









If it holds up, the plan is to take one last scoop out, then probably trim the outside down, and start machining the actual rim shape. It needs to be done by the second weekend of July; so that, if I make my goal, it will have this wheel on it for Goodguys. If it implodes, it will have been a fun three years!


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

Haha! I've been thinking about just diving straight in to cutting the wheel given how stable the wood has been.

I just didn't want to say in case it then became my fault. That had to be your call!
Hopefully it will be fine with minimal stresses.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Woodsmith said:


> Haha! I've been thinking about just diving straight in to cutting the wheel given how stable the wood has been.
> 
> I just didn't want to say in case it then became my fault. That had to be your call!
> Hopefully it will be fine with minimal stresses.


 Had to get that quoted so I can save these words in a feeble attempt to say the pile of Maple burl wood chips were "Woody's fault!" 

This should be fun!


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

_Journal Entry:_
So, I'm on this mission to redefine/get my life/career on track, and headed where I want to be. I have been known as the guy who does custom vehicle stuff now for, literally, three freakin decades! I want to be known as the guy who is responsible for, on some level, some of the most creative design stuff, ever. That is what I came to Columbus to turn the corner towards, and the direction this little ship is sailing.

Scrape is a pretty easy decision for me. It's the technical/engineering side of me, with design flair. It's the perfect platform for where I want to go with that stuff, because it delivers maximum return for the buck and time spent. I plan to keep it, and keep going with it for quite a while. It _might_ not, however, be the perfect creative design platform, because that _might_ compromise the technical aspects - the problem I ran into with Schism. On the technical side, I have fewer hoops to jump through to appease the sanctioning gods, so design is less restricted. Notice all the _mights_ - still exploring this...

For pure design, PackRat offers a lot of promise. I have another way I could go ultimately, but if I do choose to really push this car to the top of the heap, and really stretch myself in design with it, I have some thoughts on where it will go. The thing I like most about PackRat is it's so unconventional. It doesn't fit the mold of anything, in any category, you can try to define it with. It doesn't really conform to the notion of being "a car". I've even noticed that the tour guides here have trouble describing it to the people they're presenting to. It's been called everything from a contraption, to "I don't know what that is..."!  I love that because it gives me the opportunity to communicate much more than a typical automotive-oriented message. I can present - design. 

So, here are some ideas I have been toying with:


Why does the body have to be metal, or fiberglass, or carbon fiber? What if, I did it in faux granite - so that looks like the chiseled sculpture you'd find in ancient Rome or Greece, or Mount Rushmore? Set against the backdrop of sculptured bare metal, it would be like a stone-age-meets-iron-age Roman chariot - imagine that...
(_I think this one is going to happen, for sure_) Why can't my feet be outside the hood? Why can't I simultaneously sit in, and wrap my legs around, a vehicle; drive it like a car, and experience it like a motorcycle? The opportunities for design are just too much fun to pass up - exposed pedals, with a brake pedal that pokes through both sides of the hood, so I have access with either foot, just like a conventional car. It also means more people can fit in/on it. I sat in/on it with my feet out there and it is so unique because your mid section is cradled like it's in a race car (race kart seat); your arms are out like on a bike, but gripping a miniature steering wheel; your legs feel like they're straddling a big touring bike, but your feet would be doing car stuff! 
Why does it have to conform to, satisfy, fit in, or cater to, anything? Why can't it simply be my functional piece of design, just simply because it's what happens in my head, and flows out of my hands? No apologies, no explanations, just simply because...
So, the two possible paths for PackRat are build it to fit/suit something/someone, with a eye towards being able to sell it someday, like a product; or build it however I happen to build it, just because, and use it as tangible proof that I can walk the walk as I teach and push others in creative design.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

Don't forget that my admin rights allow me to edit anything that you quote or post!

I think the chiseled granite look would be great for the hood and 'radiator' shell. It has those sorts of lines, especially if it has raw (very fine) tooling marks and isn't polished counter top.

The outside foot pedals is a good idea, I'd thought about it but I don't think the 'rules' allow it over here as there is distinction between sitting in enclosed bodywork and sitting astride a saddle. It varied the requirements for single brake pedal and separate foot and hand lever brakes and also steering wheel or handle bars.
However, as you have no rules over there I'd say go with it.

I think the only thing PackRat 'needs' to conform to is that it is _your_ thing and, for the benefits of the forum, there is an EV element.

It is amazing how doing this stuff adds new dimensions and many twists and turns to life.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Woodsmith said:


> Don't forget that my admin rights allow me to edit anything that you quote or post!...


I actually thought about that after I had claimed to "immortalize" your words! 





Woodsmith said:


> ...I think the chiseled granite look would be great for the hood and 'radiator' shell. It has those sorts of lines, especially if it has raw (very fine) tooling marks and isn't polished counter top....


Definitely no counter top shine!  The chisel marks are an interesting idea - have to purchase some granite powder and experiment with that, someday..






Woodsmith said:


> ...The outside foot pedals is a good idea, I'd thought about it but I don't think the 'rules' allow it over here as there is distinction between sitting in enclosed bodywork and sitting astride a saddle. It varied the requirements for single brake pedal and separate foot and hand lever brakes and also steering wheel or handle bars.
> However, as you have no rules over there I'd say go with it...


I forget just how much freedom I have to do this stuff here sometimes. There are so many crazy ideas that I really don't have to consider any rules for, as long as I don't plan to race. The outside pedals will most likely make the cut, either way, because even if I ultimately sell PackRat they make it work better.






Woodsmith said:


> ...I think the only thing PackRat 'needs' to conform to is that it is _your_ thing...


That's _*IF*_ I decide it's mine for the long haul. If there's any serious thought of eventually selling it, I have to compromise on what I do to make sure someone else is interested in it and can actually use it for more than a conversation piece.






Woodsmith said:


> ...and, for the benefits of the forum, there is an EV element....


If anything, that will only get stronger. Even though that 750 engine is currently dominating the rear of the car, it's not yet set in stone. If I go 100% design first, there is a serious possibility that I will go all electric, because it's cleaner, in all respects. The original goal was to build a car that could drive into the Goodguys' show here in July, but I have begun to question the wisdom of following that course, considering the goals I am pursuing personally and professionally - I don't really want to be in the hot rod market anymore, so what am I killing myself to be there for?...






Woodsmith said:


> ...It is amazing how doing this stuff adds new dimensions and many twists and turns to life...


Agreed 100% buddy!  That's exponentially so, in our cases, because we pursue these scratch-built projects that allow us to fully explore ourselves and dig deeper.



After all that: the downside to pursuing pure design with PackRat is it complicates my little operation. With a motorcycle, I can scale all the way down to me, my dog, and my Saturn and be virtually anywhere (in the country), at any time. With PackRat, even at its diminutive size, the logistics become more complicated. Realistically, at the very least, I need a small truck (preferrably a mini van) and trailer just to move everything; or pay to have it transported. I also have to make arrangements for storage, when I am not actively using it. In contrast, I could jump in my car, with my dog, and Scrape, and load the whole kit and caboodle into a hotel room or studio apartment. I can always keep PackRat here at the community workshop, until I really need it somewhere, but it's still an additional concern.

I just need to really think through everything and figure out what makes the most sense. If there is true value-added, all the extra complexity would be worth it. If not, I'm stringing myself out and slowing my progress.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

You could do with one of these.










Seriously though, if you had a high top truck could you have a tail lift and store the PackRat in the headroom in the back when you are driving? 

Or maybe hang it vertically on the back crucifix style?
A winch on the rear of the truck roof and a couple of detachable wheels on the rear of PackRat's chassis would allow you to winch PackRat straight up the back of the truck to hang on brackets. It would be very eye catching, but sensibly it may be better to have a snug fitting cover. A side door in the back of the truck would allow you to access your 'office space'.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Woodsmith said:


> You could do with one of these...


On a slightly smaller (cheaper) scale, that is the idea of the Mobile Design Unit. 





Woodsmith said:


> ...Seriously though, if you had a high top truck could you have a tail lift and store the PackRat in the headroom in the back when you are driving?
> 
> Or maybe hang it vertically on the back crucifix style?
> A winch on the rear of the truck roof and a couple of detachable wheels on the rear of PackRat's chassis would allow you to winch PackRat straight up the back of the truck to hang on brackets. It would be very eye catching, but sensibly it may be better to have a snug fitting cover. A side door in the back of the truck would allow you to access your 'office space'.


The issue is adding more stuff that I have to deal with on a regular basis; registration, maintenance, storage, etc. It all costs time and money, whether it's a mini truck/van, a box truck, or a badazz motorhome.

If I decide to move even deeper into the city-dweller lifestyle, every additional project becomes harder, and more expensive, to manage.

I started another motorcycle project that I haven't mentioned here because I haven't yet decided whether it's going to be ICE, EV, or hybrid. It's sitting just outside my office door, beside Scrape. When I go in and out of my office, those two bikes _seem_ to make more sense, and look more like "me" than the car projects spread across the rest of the studio space (Inhaler, Schism, and PackRat). I could, theoretically, move my pure design mandate to that bike, with the technical and performance goals on Scrape, and have an ultra portable, compact, and convenient, operation that - literally - fits in one third the space I am currently occupying.

I kind of stumbled across the latest bike project, don't have a dime in it yet, only a few hours, and haven't made it far enough with PackRat yet to do a more reasonable comparison - so this is just an "at a glance" perspective. It is noteworthy though, and something I wouldn't have been aware of if I hadn't stumbled across that bike. I call it "Squat", by the way, because it's chopper/bobber style. The original intent was to do something quick and cheap to it, and sell it to help fund the other projects - but of course I saw something in it.  The thing that caught my attention is that with no money spent (just have to build a steel deep fryer stand for the guy, materials provided by him, just time from me), and a few hours labor invested, I have a roller that seems to have the same creative design potential; maybe. I'm trying to get PackRat on the floor and rolling to compare them.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

I made the little pin and tab to secure the round cap today, welded that together; and started on the main mount. I just welded a couple bolts to a piece of steel plate to get that started.










I tacked a couple of the cheapie rod ends to a piece of pipe to check the clearance for the drag link - perfect. It doesn't touch anything throughout the range of motion, and that clearance will get better when the steering arms are bent in a bit for proper Ackerman.

For another of those _just because_ design-first cues, I decided to experiment with mounting the rack directly on the axle. That completely eliminates bump-steer (at the expense of more un-sprung weight), but will require a slip joint to eliminate bind when the axle moves up and down. The goal is to get the rack and column sorted out and mounted this week, to close out the month.


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## tylerwatts (Feb 9, 2012)

Very nice Tod. What does the rack weigh? That whole front end looks light so I don't imagine it being a big difference.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

tylerwatts said:


> Very nice Tod. What does the rack weigh? That whole front end looks light so I don't imagine it being a big difference.


Thanks Tyler!  I haven't actually weighed it, but I would guess about five pounds. The front end is surprisingly light, in spite of my obsession with heavy steel plate these days.  I blame that on Woody.  In spite of his _bad influence_, I seem to be on track for my overall goal of 500-600lbs too.

I will admit that pure curiosity is keeping this project going. It's so far off the beaten path, and responds so well to creative design ideas, that I keep getting sucked back in to try something else or see how something plays out. I am really, really, curious about what it would be like to drive, how it will handle, how people will react to it, etc...


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

There's another opportunity here, that's been right under my nose the whole time, I just didn't connect the dots - hub motors on the front wheels! I don't have the funds to do it today, or tomorrow, but it's worth exploring. That would solve the problem of how to integrate the electric drive, put regen where it's needed most, put some (albeit un-sprung) weight on the front wheels, and would make PackRat AWD.

Ideally a couple EnerTrac motors would rock but, more reasonably, maybe a couple of the Chinese motors like Ripperton is using would suffice. Since the overall weight goal is in motorcycle territory, it shouldn't take much.

I think I stood at the edge of this slippery slope once with Schism...


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

The steering wheel design is finished. I modified the wood rim shape to fit over the rolled steel tube rim of the little Grant wheel, and finished the spoke landings. I will fabricate sheet metal stands on the Grant's spokes to match the wood landing pads.

















Next, I will cut an MDF mock-up of the rim, and finish the last couple rounds of preliminary carving on the wood block. I plan to have the real rim cut before end of June.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

After spending a little time doing some long overdue cleaning and organizing, I dove into the steering again. I went to sleep yesterday, and woke up today, thinking that since I'm mounting the rack directly to the axle I don't need a drag link; I can run a tie rod to each wheel. So I drilled the snipped end of the rack shaft. It was surprisingly easy to drill. I turned one on a lathe before and re-threaded it, but didn't know if the carbide tools were what made it possible - nope, every bit I used (stepping my way up) cut easily. I need a 12M-1.25P tap to finish it up and the Honda factory inner tie rod will bolt right up. I'm waiting to get that done to square up the end, so that it's squared to fully seat the tie rod flange surface.









After that, I fit the mount I made to the axle, and gave the little rack a _bath_. I stopped there because the next step is getting it lined up as precisely as possible and tacking the mount to the axle. I want to start fresh on that and take my time. When that's complete, I will start fabricating two more mounts. One will be on the steel plate that seals the bottom, and one on the steel end I cut down.

I also have the slip-fit shaft sorted out. I need to make one appropriate u-joint out of the two I have by cutting the splined coupler from one and welding it on the one I want to use. The slip-fit is simply the doube-D shaft from the Accord steering column. I removed the plastic guides and it slides in and out very smoothly. I think I have to turn a section on the driver end so that it will fit inside the steering column rod end (.757" oversize for the shaft to turn freely) I have for mounting it. That should be it.

Whether or not I will finish before the month is over - tomorrow at midnight - remains to be seen. That's a self-imposed deadline, so I'll take a extra day or two to do the job right, if necessary.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

toddshotrods said:


> After spending a little time doing some long overdue cleaning and organizing, I dove into the steering again. I went to sleep yesterday, and woke up today, thinking that since I'm mounting the rack directly to the axle I don't need a drag link; I can run a tie rod to each wheel.


You are still using inner and outer ball joints on the tie rods aren't you, and not just having a ball joint on the end of the rack linked to the arm on the hub?

Also with the rack mounted on the axle when one front wheel goes over a bump it will rotate the rack against the steering column and produce a little bump steer. This is worse if you have a 'quick rack'.

I tried this once as a very early way of adding powered steering to an old Land Rover (in the days before Land Rover offered PAS on any vehicles). I fitted a PAS rack on the axle in place of the track rod (drag link). As the vehicle body rolled relative to the axle it applied steering input.

I moved the rack back to the chassis and used the standard drag link to the axle to eliminate it.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Woodsmith said:


> ...Also with the rack mounted on the axle when one front wheel goes over a bump it will rotate the rack against the steering column and produce a little bump steer. This is worse if you have a 'quick rack'.
> 
> I tried this once as a very early way of adding powered steering to an old Land Rover (in the days before Land Rover offered PAS on any vehicles). I fitted a PAS rack on the axle in place of the track rod (drag link). As the vehicle body rolled relative to the axle it applied steering input.
> 
> I moved the rack back to the chassis and used the standard drag link to the axle to eliminate it.


Now you chime in!  Well you had a lot more, and (I assume) softer, suspension travel than I will. PackRat will have 1.5-2" of, relatively tightly sprung/damped) bump travel. The Honda rack is 3.25 turns lock-to lock, but I am thinking it will be closer to 2.5, due to shorter steering arms.

Think it will suck? 





Woodsmith said:


> You are still using inner and outer ball joints on the tie rods aren't you, and not just having a ball joint on the end of the rack linked to the arm on the hub?...


The factory inner tie rods connecting to the rack, with rod ends connecting to the steering arms, was the plan.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Just did some internet research. The guys with actual experience running racks mounted to straight axles in street rods have nothing but good words to say about it; and all say no bump steer.

http://www.hotrodders.com/forum/straigth-axle-cars-rack-pinion-steering-197064.html

http://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=612919 (check out post #24 )

I'm going for it - design first...


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

toddshotrods said:


> Now you chime in!  Well you had a lot more, and (I assume) softer, suspension travel than I will. PackRat will have 1.5-2" of, relatively tightly sprung/damped) bump travel. The Honda rack is 3.25 turns lock-to lock, but I am thinking it will be closer to 2.5, due to shorter steering arms.
> 
> Think it will suck?


I think it might suck.

Even with 1.5" at each wheel it will be like twitching the wheel back and forth maybe 0.5" at the rim. Twitch the wheel that amount and see how much the road wheels turn, with 2.5 turns lock to lock. I guess that would be the difference between a squidgy shopping car and a tight sports car.

On a smooth road that may not be too much of an issue as the twitching will be slight but if you run over some slanted ripples or a pothole that will twitch the steering just when you least want or expect it.

Being a trike the chassis will stay relatively parallel to the road on ripples but only at slow speeds. As you speed up the chassis will stay level as the suspension starts to really work.
On corners as you get body roll you will have a steering input from that, and any road camber, that isn't coming from the steering wheel. Could be off putting if you were about to gun it a bit at the apex.

On my Land Rover, granted there was more suspension travel, but even going nearly square on over a speed bump was enough to make it steer noticeably as if avoiding a spot on the top of the hump.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

As I figured, I didn't end the month with the steering wheel turning the wheels, but I am oh so close and very happy with the progress - it turns the rack! 

I spent an eternity leveling, plumbing, and measuring - repeat a hundred times - and finally tacked the rack mount to the axle. Then, while I was still in precision mode, I hashed out the second mount. The second mount pieces, cut, ground, drilled, hammered, and welded:










I spent a LOT of time on this little bugger - that no one will see after the hood goes on! 











The rack slips down over the studs of the first mount, then the bolt slips through the second mount and threads into the nut welded to the steel cover plate. It all slips and bolts together like precision machinery. I am pleased with it. Even without full welds, or the third mount, it is really solid.











I TIG'd the u-joint back together - this little rascal is burned in - deep! To make it I cut the clamp section off one of the other u-joints, and welded it to this one. It actually has about .1875" of the splines engaged in the clamp, so between that and my mad TIG work - it ain't never goin nowhere!  I wire brushed the parts, cleaned them with acetone, cranked the TIG up to around 200 amps and controlled the heat with my right foot - full throttle could have blown it to smithereens!  That allowed me to ramp in pretty aggressively get a perfect puddle, dab, back off the heat before it starts to _drip_, puddle, dab...  Fun stuff. I didn't even attempt to do stacks (row of nickels) as my main concern was more on getting as strong of a weld as I could. I would have needed a better set up with a rotisserie and a smaller cup to do stacks in that tight little space.










The double-D slip joint works perfectly and it feels really nice. I can't wait until it's sitting on the ground, and this turns the wheels.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Well, today's news is probably not going to be perceived as good news. I am going to divest myself of everything but Scrape. That means what has been done here is now officially a for sale project. In the time between now and when someone becomes its proud new owner, I _might_ try to get it rolling. That's kind of the easy part though. The tough part was the front suspension and steering. A person could simply cut that 750 frame down, weld it on and have a complete rear drive system and suspension. Even finishing the front is a cake walk from here. It's mostly a matter of welding everything up, and stringing a couple tie rods to the wheels.

Sorry if it's a big disappointment, but I have come to the conclusion that for where I want to go next in my career these type projects don't fit. On the other hand, with all of my creative energy and resources channeled into Scrape, it should be pretty awesome.

Maybe the new owner will continue this thread. Maybe someone greener than I will buy it and make it all-electric!


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## ElectriCar (Jun 15, 2008)

Ok can we speed this up? Seriously, just suscribing to keep an eye on this thing. Can't wait to see it finished, half motorcycle, half something else, whatever you make it into.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

ElectriCar said:


> Ok can we speed this up? Seriously, just suscribing to keep an eye on this thing. Can't wait to see it finished, half motorcycle, half something else, whatever you make it into.


Haha! Perhaps _you_ would like to perform the final act in NC?


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

toddshotrods said:


> Well, today's news is probably not going to be perceived as good news. I am going to divest myself of everything but Scrape.


I'm really sorry to hear that  but I guess you need to follow your heart and your 'drives'.
Hopefully someone will take PackRat onwards on your behalf.


I hope that it also means there will be great progress on Scrape coming up.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Woodsmith said:


> I'm really sorry to hear that  but I guess you need to follow your heart and your 'drives'.
> Hopefully someone will take PackRat onwards on your behalf...


Ideally, it would go to a new owner who wants my input, as a designer, to help get it finished up; and someone who will keep this thread humming along, without missing a beat. I don't have high hopes if it goes to someone in this lazy, unmotivated, city though.  I've offered to _give_ people things here, and help them do things - the answer is usually, "that's too much work." 






Woodsmith said:


> ...I hope that it also means there will be great progress on Scrape coming up.


That, sir, is the plan - over the top...


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

In the meantime, I am going to try my best to not let this project fall off a cliff. Just to prevent too much distance from accumulating between me and PackRat, I am going to force myself to press pause on the planning and hit the shop floor a little this week. I will try to get the steering column mounts tacked in, and at least get started on the planned rear drivetrain/suspension mounts.

The plan is to cut-n-grind more (surprise, surprise!) .250" steel plates that will mount the Honda engine and rear swingarm. That's all stuff I have on-hand, and can do to keep my hands busy while my mind reels. I also figured out that I can probably fabricate the rear coil-over mounts from the dash bar pieces I was working on for Schism. I stopped on that because I realized that the idea I had for Schism could have been bent from a single piece, instead of being welded together from pre-bent sections. Even as a for sale project, I would like to stick with the sanctioning body legal, full-race, plan; so that bar should be replaced anyway. I _think_ those curved tubes coming up off the frame will add some needed depth and dimension to PackRat's wraparound rear frame design - plus they're basically free.

The more stuff like that I have done, the more a potential buyer should be able to see through to the end, and the more bargaining power I have...


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

Or you could bolt in a HUGE fork truck motor (to the ICE mounts you are welding on) to chain drive the rear wheel, drop in some battery trays and a cheap controller and sell it on as a full EV project with the option to refit the ICE.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Woodsmith said:


> Or you could bolt in a HUGE fork truck motor (to the ICE mounts you are welding on) to chain drive the rear wheel, drop in some battery trays and a cheap controller and sell it on as a full EV project with the option to refit the ICE.


Lol!  I think you're just trying to make me like it too much to sell it! 

That would be $500-1000, or more, just to rough in - the amount I need to take Scrape to the next level and start riding it on the street. Also, unfortunately, being a full EV in Columbus increases the wow factor, but decreases the value as these people wouldn't pay for or build the battery pack. They'll spend, literally, hundreds of dollars a week on R&R, but getting them to spend $25 on something more tangible/productive is like pulling teeth.

This is hybrid country. There are more Priuses than you can count, and more Volts starting to pop up. I haven't see one, but a few people have told me they saw a Tesla Model S around town. I've noticed that the preference for "EVs" is the kind where you don't have to do anything beyond filling up the tank - micro hybrid, not even PHEV. There are a few charging stations around, but all I have ever seen plugged in are Volts - I have the sneaking suspicion that some of those were doing it for show because it's in the big social/arts district, where such a thing looks "cool". There's also very little community and business support for EVs, and most of the "green" stuff they talk about is political BS.

It's really sad because this is the 15th largest (and growing) city in the country, that is trying desperately to find an identity; but they're trying to find something easy - almost a gimmick. The new slogan is "Open Smart". Open is supposed to refer to open source, and I think smart means tech, but nearly everything meaningful/valuable is locked up by OSU and a few major companies. OSU is the green automotive tech leader (research and testing for the majors, Buckeye Bullet, ECO-CAR, electric motorcycle race team, a slew of businesses they try to hide their involvement in, Venturi in the big incubator they try not to seem to be in control of, etc) and they do nothing for anyone, unless it directly benefits "_the_ Ohio State University" - a bunch of arrogant, underwhelming, snobs. Compared to a real innovator like MIT... 

Rant over.  Can you feel the love for this area? 

I'm just trying to use up the loose materials around the shop to keep the project from completely stalling - which isn't far from the point of how it was created and developed anyway - the "rat rod" theme. Anything I have to buy takes me away from my focus again. It will also be really easy for an EVer to toss the ICE and convert it to full EV.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

I had to fabricate a steel tube deep fryer stand, materials supplied by him, as payment for the latest bike project I have looming outside my office door. Pretty good deal. I have a complete rolling chassis, sans engine, with a clean title, for a couple hours' labor.

Since I was already dirty, I decided to keep my word and do a little work on the 'Rat. As mentioned, I want to get the steering column tacked in place, but also felt like relaxing and having fun today. The first step was what I had previously planned to do - turn a section of the steering shaft down to fit the rod end.








The section that was turned down was a bushing that's welded to the shaft. I left a shoulder for the rod end to seat against, and tapered it so that it works like the cone-shaped rod end washers, allowing full movement of the pivot ball.


Then, the fun started. Instead of doing the mount, for some reason, my attention turned to the little Grant column adapter. I removed the horn disc, cut the little flat sections out, turned the tangs for the turn signal actuators off, and then used carbide cutters in my die grinder and Dremel to reshape it. I need to get some 1/2" sanding drums for the Dremel to smooth it out, then do a little hand sanding to finish it. I'm going to make a pattern on the ShopBot, re-drill the mounting holes, and re-clock the wheel, so that the wheel spokes line up with the hub spokes better; then I might pull the open areas between the wheel spokes deeper down into the hub - just because... 










That opened a whole 'nother can of fun worms, as I saw the opportunity to turn a sculptured spacer that would lock the rod end in place. The tail stock on the lathe is screwed up, and the vice on the mill sucks, so I had to get creative to bore the center hole. I clamped a big Wilton bench vise to the mill table, rotated the head 90-degrees, and used the pipe clamp to hold the aluminum bar stock. It actually worked pretty well. No chatter or squealing, even with the end mill buried in the bar, so that big vise kept its cool. I need to get a .750" bolt and nut tomorrow to create a spindle, so I can start whittling. It'll get some curves, and a taper down to the rod end.


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## ElectriCar (Jun 15, 2008)

Cool! Still hoping to see the last chapter in this book...


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Thanks ElectriCar!  It really is a cool little project, and once I am _finally_ past this shop phase of my life it's something I could have enjoyed tinkering with. I had fun yesterday, and many others I have worked on PackRat.

The problem is me. I'm boring. I don't work hard to have enough disposable income to party and have fun. I work just hard enough to get the pesky, mandatory, cost of living expenses out of the way so I can work longer and harder. That is really my lifestyle, and has been for most of my life. The more toys I have, the more of my focus has to be diverted away from what I call my _real_ work to manage and maintain them.

PackRat means I have to have a storage unit and rent time in a shop somewhere to work on it, at the very least, (after I rid myself of this studio) - or a rather substantial city warehouse style dwelling, with freight elevator access - read expensive, any way you slice it. I can fit Scrape almost anywhere, even in a set of large luggage bags, with version 2.x 

If I happen across a little extra disposable income, with no extra effort expended to obtain it... In the meantime, I will try to keep chugging along towards that final chapter, and find a suitable _ghost writer_. My deal for this studio is valid until December. I'm just not sure how long I'll be in it. I don't think I am going to take the offer move to New York City, but if something more suitable/timely comes up, I'm gone...


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

toddshotrods said:


> The problem is me. I'm boring. I don't work hard to have enough disposable income to party and have fun. I work just hard enough to get the pesky, mandatory, cost of living expenses out of the way so I can work longer and harder.


There's no problem with me, though some might think my life boring.
I work just hard enough to have enough disposable income to get the pesky, mandatory, cost of living expenses out of the way so that I can spend the rest of the time working longer and harder on the fun stuff.


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## ElectriCar (Jun 15, 2008)

Don't know where you live but may I recommend a leisurely life in the south? Here you can buy a nice home, or not so nice if you like, in the country with a shop out back do do your tinkering. And if you're up north in the land of disenchantment, you can sell your home and buy a much nicer one down here and pay less taxes to boot! Oh and keep your gun and 50 round magazines if you like...

And the weather is nice so you could grow a nice garden time permitting. Somehow I'd suspect you wouldn't have time for that.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Woodsmith said:


> There's no problem with me, though some might think my life boring.
> I work just hard enough to have enough disposable income to get the pesky, mandatory, cost of living expenses out of the way so that I can spend the rest of the time working longer and harder on the fun stuff.


Well said, with the only difference being I think work _is_ the fun stuff.  Being forced to "profit" is the only downside for me.






ElectriCar said:


> Don't know where you live but may I recommend a leisurely life in the south? Here you can buy a nice home, or not so nice if you like, in the country with a shop out back do do your tinkering. And if you're up north in the land of disenchantment, you can sell your home and buy a much nicer one down here and pay less taxes to boot! Oh and keep your gun and 50 round magazines if you like...
> 
> And the weather is nice so you could grow a nice garden time permitting. Somehow I'd suspect you wouldn't have time for that.


Haha!  I'm in Ohio, Columbus, dead center - and hating it. I've been in Ohio for almost half of a century, trying to escape. I spent most of that half-century maintaining a house, and a lawn full of shrubbery (tried to make it look like a little park ), and even had gardens and dined from them. I moved to Columbus to _finally_ settle into an urban lifestyle, where the concrete is neat and clean, and the tiny green spaces are meticulously maintained - by someone else - for my enjoyment! That (urban) part is paradise, and everything I hoped it would be.

Goal: go deeper into a bigger urban jungle, as high up as money will allow, and work, work, work, until the day I die. 





ElectriCar said:


> ...And the weather is nice...


That is a goal - without the home, and yard, and garden stuff.






ElectriCar said:


> ...Oh and keep your gun and 50 round magazines if you like...


Agreed. That's a deal breaker for me with New York City, and my much coveted Los Angeles. Deep into Florida or Texas, and high up in the concrete, might work though.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

toddshotrods said:


> Well said, with the only difference being I think work _is_ the fun stuff.  Being forced to "profit" is the only downside for me.


Ditto, absolutely ditto!
If the work's not fun then I don't want to do it. That's a big part of the drive that found me Arch and the reasons for wanting to build my trike for a work vehicle. It is just a shame that one can only live by insisting on payment and profit from doing the job.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

The steering is finally far enough along for me to move to the back of the car. I still have a bunch of odds and ends to to before the front suspension can support the car, but everything is there. I want to sort through all of the design issues from front to back, so that making it roll is just a matter of connecting the dots.

I turned the spacer. The two outside diameters were too to do anything really crazy with the shape, so I just gave it a gradual roll down to the rod end. Later, I'll trim a little off the bottom to fine-tine the spacing. I tacked it to the Grant column adapter.










Then I fabricated the rear mount. It will get a rounded cap and a threaded bung for the rod end, which will match the front suspension design. The nut is just there to fill in for the bung, until I order one.










It really feels awesome. It's not turning the wheels yet, and the Quick Clamps holding the seat won't let me turn more than 10-15 degrees, but it feels very smooth, very solid, and very precise. Maybe it's Honda engineering in the rack, but the Inhaler's steering doesn't feel like this.


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## ElectriCar (Jun 15, 2008)

Careful using terms like "bung". Someone may get excited.


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## Hollie Maea (Dec 9, 2009)

Come here to Portland! It's great here. And lots of smart people to work with.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

ElectriCar said:


> Careful using terms like "bung". Someone may get excited.


At least I didn't say bung hole!  Heh-heh. 





Hollie Maea said:


> Come here to Portland! It's great here. And lots of smart people to work with.


Kind of far north for me - I like heat, lots and lots of it. I've always heard good things about Portland though.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

The final round of rough cutting is complete - still incredibly stable. The next time you see this it should be either a beautifully sculpted steering wheel rim, or a pile of 5-year-old wood chips!  I'll glue up and cut up an MDF mock-up just to be certain, and then it's 3D CNC time! 










The first step in the back is getting the rear crossmember in place, so I can get it set up with the Honda wheel and swingarm. After I get it all hammered out and welded up, I'll cut the two rear tack welds on the pipe brace, tack this crossmember in, cut the top tack welds, and remove the brace.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

I hammered out the rolled pieces, welded them in, and promptly ground half of the metal back off, until it looked like this. This is still just a rough-in. I literally had to keep reminding myself the whole time, "just get it roughed in, save the perfection crap for later..." 











Then, welded on the frame. The inside corners will be rolled too, later. There will eventually be over forty inches of weld connecting this to the frame!  All welds will be in chamfers or corners, so the blending doesn't compromise the strength.










Even though I don't quite know where I am going with this project now, I had three goals when I started it:


A project designed and built completely by my mind and hands.
Something that could be built as cheaply and quickly as possible, based on what I have available now.
A project that would allow me to stretch myself creatively.
It has and is succeeding on all fronts - especially stretching myself. I kind of see something, am chasing it, but not quite sure how (or if) I can really pull it off. I have had this super skinny tired thing in my head for weeks. Seeing the Honda wire wheel back there now, is _very_ interesting. (Notice, I notched the crossmember for the skinny tire to force myself to do it and make it work? )


This really is a "contraption"...


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## Ektus (Feb 15, 2011)

Don't want to interfere, but... where are you going to put all those parts that are needed to operate the ICE (cooler, coolant reservoir, fuel (gas) tank, exhaust system and so on)?

I don't see much room left for that, and to place them so it still looks pretty and the COG kept low might require some very creative thinking. Perhaps welding the frame liquid-tight and putting the fuel there?


Regards
Ektus.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Ektus said:


> Don't want to interfere, but...


Hey Ekus! No interference there, questions are always welcome - especially when you _*don't*_ give me lashes or negative ratings for posting pictures with an ICE in it! 





Ektus said:


> ... where are you going to put all those parts that are needed to operate the ICE (cooler, coolant reservoir, fuel (gas) tank, exhaust system and so on)?
> 
> I don't see much room left for that, and to place them so it still looks pretty and the COG kept low might require some very creative thinking. Perhaps welding the frame liquid-tight and putting the fuel there?
> 
> ...



 My "range extender"  is an old air-cooled engine, like the old V-dub engines. No radiator, no reservoir. So, nothing to locate and/or hide there. They would make good range extenders for EVs, by helping keep things clean and neat, by the way.
 

The gas tank is supposed to be in a small round tank between the engine and seat. It would be have a barrier for heat insulation (from the exhaust), and use a small, low-pressure, pump to get fuel up to the normally gravity-fed carburetors (I want to get rid of them and go to EFI). It wouldn't hold much fuel, but there are gas stations everywhere, and I figure an occasional stretch would be in order anyway. 


Serious drag bike chassis put the fuel in the single tube backbone frame member, and I have seen some high-end street rods that did it (show cars), but I am not really comfortable with the idea of gas in the frame. A separate tank can be located so that it's isolated from any impact and stress the frame sees, giving a little extra time before it would get damaged and possibly leak. Also, if a tank ever does leak, you simply have it cleaned out and repaired, or replace it - not so easy with the frame! 


The exhaust is what you see there, four straight pipes. Honda 750s are one of the motorcycle engines, like Harleys, that actually sound right with them. I didn't get into that here because this is an electric car forum. I was going to ignore the ICE as much as possible and concentrate on the vehicle design and fabrication, and the electric drive system.




On that note: I might have some interesting developments later today - stay tuned guys...


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

toddshotrods said:


> ...On that note: I might have some interesting developments later today - stay tuned guys...



Big news - drum roll......................................................


PackRat is going ALL electric!!! 










I've been tossing and turning over this for the past couple weeks. Ironically, what pushed me over the EV edge is the decision to get out of shop life and building cars. With that decision, I realized the the Goodguys show I have been pushing so hard to get to has no commercial benefit to me. The ICE was the fastest, easiest, route to that goal. Other than a fuel tank and pump, everything was there to make it run. I realized that if I'm not in a hurry I can save up for a controller and batteries, and keep my concentration on design. Then I realized that, with a little ingenuity, I can probably make Scrape's controller and electronics plug-n-play, so that I can borrow them to drive PackRat - until I get a dedicated controller for it.


On the design front: this offers me so awesome of a canvas that I have decided to delay the purposed effort to sell this car for a bit. I have until the end of this year to figure out a plan that would allow me to cost-effectively keep it as a marketing tool. If I don't find it, I will have a more complete, hopefully running, vehicle to sell. The design advantages, in going electric, are just too awesome to pass up and too good to not explore for a while.  I am stealing my big GE SepEx motor, and the custom saddle mount, from Schism to make this a reality - now. That big hunk of rusty tubing on the table is for the crossmember. When that's in place the motor is going in. The rust is just surface - it's .1875" steel and very solid. I have had a better idea for Schism since I mounted that motor in it, but had so much invested in that setup that I didn't want to start over. Problem solved, and opportunities unleashed for the Rat:




 I can put a honey seat right on top of the motor! 
No cables and connections for the clutch, shifter, and throttle (I plan to use a TPS on the throttle pedal).
With a SepEx controller, I can have electronic reversing, so just a switch. That means a steering wheel, two pedals, and a handful of switches to control the vehicle - very neat and tidy. The fewer parts it has the more impact I get from the time spent designing and fabricating each one...
I plan to start with 48 volts of AGM, and add more until it's full or doesn't make sense to put anymore money in them. That also gives me time to figure out whether this car stays in my collection, and ultimately gets a dose of lithium. As it is, there are a lots of places to stuff batteries - under the motor, in front of the seat, under the hood, etc. It will be heavier than the ICE version, but the weight should be better distributed, and lower overall.


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## ken will (Dec 19, 2009)

toddshotrods said:


> Big news - drum roll......................................................
> 
> 
> PackRat is going ALL electric!!!


Best news I have heard all week! and this has been a great week!



toddshotrods said:


> .............It will be heavier than the ICE version, but the weight should be better distributed, and lower overall.


A rule of thumb is 33% weight on each of the wheels, depending if you prefer over steering or under steering.

If you are into "Drifting" you can move the weight off of the rear wheel, or if you want to use that SepEx for generative braking put a little more weight on the drive wheel.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

ken will said:


> Best news I have heard all week! and this has been a great week!...


Thanks Ken.  I'm pretty psyched about what I see with this setup. 






ken will said:


> ...A rule of thumb is 33% weight on each of the wheels, depending if you prefer over steering or under steering.
> 
> If you are into "Drifting" you can move the weight off of the rear wheel, or if you want to use that SepEx for generative braking put a little more weight on the drive wheel.


I doubt that I'll reach the theoretical reverse trike ideal of 33/33/33%, as this is still a design-first (function follows form) project. To achieve that a 9" motor would have been better, shaving 100lbs from the back, then by locating the batteries all up front it would be about there.

Being a design-first project, the 11" motor is mandatory for visual impact (and because I already have it), and I don't want the hood big enough to conceal all the batteries. It will have a rearward weight bias; not sure how much yet. I actually prefer slight, controllable, oversteer over understeer, but since (again) PackRat is design-first I'll have to learn to live with whatever develops.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

toddshotrods said:


> Big news - drum roll......................................................
> 
> 
> PackRat is going ALL electric!!!


Told ya!





toddshotrods said:


> I can put a honey seat right on top of the motor!


Told ya that too!


I love the idea, and having the electronics modular and transferable between vehicles is a great move. I have been very tempted to do that with the tractor set up to get the trike legal while the tractor is having an axle transplant.


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## zeroexcelcior (Aug 2, 2011)

toddshotrods said:


> _Journal Entry:_
> 
> Why does the body have to be metal, or fiberglass, or carbon fiber? What if, I did it in faux granite - so that looks like the chiseled sculpture you'd find in ancient Rome or Greece, or Mount Rushmore? Set against the backdrop of sculptured bare metal, it would be like a stone-age-meets-iron-age Roman chariot - imagine that...
> (_I think this one is going to happen, for sure_) Why can't my feet be outside the hood? Why can't I simultaneously sit in, and wrap my legs around, a vehicle; drive it like a car, and experience it like a motorcycle? The opportunities for design are just too much fun to pass up - exposed pedals, with a brake pedal that pokes through both sides of the hood, so I have access with either foot, just like a conventional car. It also means more people can fit in/on it. I sat in/on it with my feet out there and it is so unique because your mid section is cradled like it's in a race car (race kart seat); your arms are out like on a bike, but gripping a miniature steering wheel; your legs feel like they're straddling a big touring bike, but your feet would be doing car stuff!


My two cents:
What if the segment of body from the nose to the dash were completely open below, attached only at the front, cantilever-like? Functionally, this would allow for more leg room and freedom for placing pedals. Aesthetically, combined with a stone appearance, I think it would add both a feel of lightness and of other worldliness.

I've enjoyed watching this project unfold and I hope it continues to flourish.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Woodsmith said:


> Told ya!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Lol, I was listening!  It just took me a while to get there, as I started on a different road. My "GPS" took a little while to re-map... 






Woodsmith said:


> ...I love the idea, and having the electronics modular and transferable between vehicles is a great move. I have been very tempted to do that with the tractor set up to get the trike legal while the tractor is having an axle transplant.


The funny thing I just realized is that, except for batteries, the road to a roller just got easier. The motor mount exists, and will be supporting the motor as soon as I get the crossmember in place; I had to fabricate the ICE mounts from scratch. To make it run, the modular electronics plan puts it a little closer to the ICE. I'll have to put 16 volts on the field, and it will be in slow start off mode (no field weakening) for a bit, but will be able to move. Substitute the jackshaft for all the ICE's cables and connections, and it's pretty close. With four AGMs, I _could_ _possibly_ drive it into Goodguys anyway. It would just be for the personal thrill and satisfaction this way.

(sport style chant) Gooooo Green! 






zeroexcelcior said:


> My two cents:
> What if the segment of body from the nose to the dash were completely open below, attached only at the front, cantilever-like? Functionally, this would allow for more leg room and freedom for placing pedals. Aesthetically, combined with a stone appearance, I think it would add both a feel of lightness and of other worldliness...


"Lightness" and "stone" are kind of an oxymoron, which I find appealing!  "Other worldiness" sounds like home! 

I will be doing something similar, but want the lower sections of the hood that roll back to the seat. I call them the "doors" because, with the seat, they create that scooped opening that you climb through to get in vintage speedsters and race cars. Of course, with PackRat, you step over the whole thing and sit down, with your legs hanging out of them! 

The sides of the hood will be mostly open, like they are. I plan to cut the panels down to create a scalloped opening, so you will be able to see whatever is in there. I was just waiting to get everything in place to determine the exact shape of the scallop. Then, they go back on the ShopBot for a little more sculpting. I want a bead around that opening.






zeroexcelcior said:


> ...I've enjoyed watching this project unfold and I hope it continues to flourish.


Thanks!  I'm going to go as far as I possibly can with it - and driving it would be a pretty awesome goal to achieve and enjoy.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Let's make this official, shall we?  I removed the motor and mount from Schism yesterday, but got distracted with a lot of wine, beer, and pizza, in a continuing series of send-off parties for a fellow businessman/friend here (who is moving to New York City). Today, I bored and ground clearances for the field bolts, then got the mount welded up. The slot is for adding an additional lateral brace later.










I also cut, fit, and slotted the new crossmember into the frame yesterday. The frame rails were slotted, and the crossmember had full-length tangs that fit in the slots, just like it was on Schism. It was a very tight interference fit - read, had to (purposely) fairly aggressively hammer it into the frame. Then, the motor mount was centered, leveled, and welded in.









I welded all the way down the sides of the mount you can't see; and still, obviously, have to finish welding around it and welding the corssmember in. This stuff will all be blended later.



PackRat is now, offically, a 100% BEV!  I think I can fit four Group U1 AGM batteries under the motor, one or two in front of the seat, and two or three under the hood. I'll be cutting mockups to get that sorted out soon.










Next up, I will make patterns for, then cut-n-grind, the swing arm mounts; then the rear suspension. After that, it's off to final welding, a little preliminary grinding, and this puppy hits the floor! Then, start working on making it run!


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

I like it! 

Pity I am committed to building a little truck now. Would have been fun having a side by side comparison.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Woodsmith said:


> I like it! ...


Thanks Woody!  Even though, no matter how I twist them, PackRat still doesn't really fit into my long-term plans I am having too much fun to stop now!  Maybe I'll find a way to keep it by the time the year comes to a close...

In the meantime: My goal is to see if I can wrap up the rear suspension design and rough-in this week, and get everything welded up next week. July 5th will be three months - I would love to have a rolling, steering, car by then that, at the very least, I can put 12 volts to the big motor and feel it move!  That's a lot to get done in less than four weeks though...






Woodsmith said:


> ...Pity I am committed to building a little truck now. Would have been fun having a side by side comparison.


The irony in that is I sometimes wish I was building the little delivery truck instead of a speedster, but I know it would spiral out of control. I would probably _just_ be transitioning from design to actual building at this point!


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

_Journal Entry:_
It's funny how you can fight, fight, fight, for something and then sometimes when you ease up, come up for air, take a breather, it just _magically_ happens!  The hard press towards a goal really sets the conditions, making that _instant_ success possible, but it can feel like a never-ending, unproductive, battle when you're in the trenches.


I really just realized today, that I have, in a couple months, accomplished some goals I have been chasing for _many_ years now:


A totally scratch-built hot rod. Almost everything on this car is my bright idea, and created from _raw_ materials.
A true design-first automotive statement. The main culprit was my addiction to speed and racing, but other things like circumstances, money, and other people involved, always led to compromises. For the first time ever, a vehicle is simply what I decided I wanted it to be.
Total power overkill - I really just realized a matter of minutes ago, that I mounted that huge 11" motor on the most minimalist contraption possible. A Mars motor probably would have been enough to push this thing around, and I have an 11" forklift motor!  It would probably weigh ~400lbs with a Mars motor, the big GE will be at least 33% of the total vehicle weight!  I temporarily let go of racing, and stumbled into this goal...
Bare metal. I've also been obsessed with bare metal cars for a number of years now. I was headed that direction with Schism, but the amount of work it would take just to get everything welded and blended was mind-numbing. One of my interns probably had ~40 hours just in the preliminary blending work on the rear crossmember!  I did PackRat's, from start to blended rough-in, in less than 10 hours. As long as I own it, no paint - all raw materials. 
The front suspension. IIRC, I first sketched that before I moved to Columbus (2008) - so it has been simmering in my subconscious for many years. I'm not sure how many years ago it was first conceived, but wouldn't be surprised if it was around the time I started the Inhaler (2005).
A hot rod set on motorcycle tires. I have always loved that look, and will probably have three of them on PackRat.
That steering wheel - I know I started sketching and modeling steering wheels almost a decade ago... It's not finished, but is _finally_ so close I can taste it.




Then, there are a some firsts:


First reverse trike. I didn't like them until recently, now I am building one.
First time I will ever go outside the tradition materials (metals and composites) with the faux stone body.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Add one more to that list: the antique clock dome encased motor controller. After typing that last post, I went out to start on the swing arm mount design and somehow realized that my clock dome case would work on PackRat! I first placed the cardboard tube there, and then just had to cut a foam dome to get the full effect. I just have to do this!


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

I'm wondering if that glass dome couldn't be sideways in the same orientation as the motor.

I could easily be seeing a bevel drive on the end of the motor and the motor stood upright like the glass dome.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Woodsmith said:


> I'm wondering if that glass dome couldn't be sideways in the same orientation as the motor....


I think it's going to actually have "wings", so the vertical orientation will work best. This is an 8" diameter dome. I was modeling 10" domes before to fit the controller inside. A 10" dome would'n't fit in the available space, so my plan is to create Art Deco, style side extensions that enlarge the housing enough to fit everything.







Woodsmith said:


> ...I could easily be seeing a bevel drive on the end of the motor and the motor stood upright like the glass dome.


Then the honey seat would be higher than it would have been atop the ICE! 

Also, the horizontal position is a perfect representation of the round fuel tanks that are normally right there on ICE powered speedsters and modifieds.




I glued up a particle board block today, and have the steering wheel model ready to cut. If not tomorrow, before the week is over there should be a mock-up of the wood rim...


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

toddshotrods said:


> Total power overkill - I really just realized a matter of minutes ago, that I mounted that huge 11" motor on the most minimalist contraption possible.




 I found this 'chap' at the weekend, while visiting a WW2 weekend at the Great Central (heritage) Railway, and thought of you.

The paper coffee cup on top is for scale!


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

toddshotrods said:


> I think it's going to actually have "wings", so the vertical orientation will work best. This is an 8" diameter dome. I was modeling 10" domes before to fit the controller inside. A 10" dome would'n't fit in the available space, so my plan is to create Art Deco, style side extensions that enlarge the housing enough to fit everything.


That'll look cool. Is there a local glass blower who can form one for you?


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Woodsmith said:


> [/LIST]
> I found this 'chap' at the weekend, while visiting a WW2 weekend at the Great Central (heritage) Railway, and thought of you.
> 
> The paper coffee cup on top is for scale!


I just saw one about that size at a local recycler. When I saw it, I thought about the monster truck we had fun dreaming up a while back. 






Woodsmith said:


> That'll look cool...


Thanks. 





toddshotrods said:


> I think it's going to actually have "wings",
> 
> ...Art Deco, style side extensions that enlarge the housing enough to fit everything...


Oops, that description is missing an important detail - the "wings" will be a different material. I'm thinking carbon fiber, with a matching faux stone finish, but I haven't started on the actual design yet. The glass dome would be sort of rising out of the base, between the wings. It should match the shape of the hood really well.





Woodsmith said:


> ...Is there a local glass blower who can form one for you?


I'm cheating and using an acrylic dome.  The real glass domes are expensive, fragile, and difficult to work with. I can cut the side clearances out, drill mounting holes, etc, with an acrylic dome. Tom A provided that link in Schism's thread.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

I didn't really feel like doing any shop work today, but pushed myself out there anyway, and got the swingarm mounts designed, cut, ground, drilled, and tacked on. Not too bad for a guy with a serious lack of motivation. 

















I'll add curvy little gussets when I start on the final welding. Now to get the rear suspension sorted out and in place, so that can happen and this puppy can hit the floor.


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## Joey (Oct 12, 2007)

toddshotrods said:


> _Journal Entry:_
> It's funny how you can fight, fight, fight, for something and then sometimes when you ease up, come up for air, take a breather, it just _magically_ happens!


 
That is the process. You are not satisfied to force an idea that just won't fit in with the overall vision. I don't think you could live with a compromise (speaking about your projects here). I've watched you work hours on an idea and then shelve it, because while being awesome on its own, just didn't integrate well enough. I would like to think that all of those concepts are not dead ends, but ideas that are waiting to find the right home. It is great to see the steering wheel and dome cover get another chance at making the cut. I'm still hoping to see that monster 13 inch aluminum motor mount see daylight someday or the multi-button controls interface in one of your projects. Keep up the work. I'm enjoying every minute of it.

I know a guy who says he worked his butt off for 20 years before he became an overnight success.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Joey said:


> ...Keep up the work. I'm enjoying every minute of it...


Thanks Joey!  I always try to try... 






Joey said:


> That is the process. You are not satisfied to force an idea that just won't fit in with the overall vision. I don't think you could live with a compromise (speaking about your projects here). I've watched you work hours on an idea and then shelve it, because while being awesome on its own, just didn't integrate well enough...


Yup, that be me.






Joey said:


> ...I would like to think that all of those concepts are not dead ends, but ideas that are waiting to find the right home...


That is usually the case. It's really about the process to "get there" with me, but the ideas that I use as stepping stones often find homes later. I'm actually surprised how much of it is working perfectly on PackRat.






Joey said:


> ...It is great to see the steering wheel and dome cover get another chance at making the cut...


Agreed, and it's like I designed them for this project from the beginning.






Joey said:


> ...I'm still hoping to see that monster 13 inch aluminum motor mount see daylight someday or the multi-button controls interface in one of your projects...


The big machined motor mount is on the wall waiting, though it still hasn't come close to fitting anything yet, but I haven't given up on it. It just needs a lot of love to be right and I could probably cut a new one in the time it would take to fix it. Maybe it would make a nice intern project, for learning hand-eye coordination, patience, and tool skills, someday. It's for the 11" motor, by the way.

The multi-function, command center, steering wheel is for the Inhaler. Alex still pitches that to tour groups, along with the matching Steampunked HUD goggles, so I assume he has intentions of realizing it, someday. I'm just waiting on them to get serious about funding the project...

I would like to do something similar, hopefully with Google Glass, for Scrape but haven't put much thought or effort into the idea, yet.






Joey said:


> ...I know a guy who says he worked his butt off for 20 years before he became an overnight success.


If I ever hit the success part I will obliterate his record!


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

How is this for a bit of snowballing, project creeping, madness?!  While watching the Heat tromp the Spurs, I decided to play around with the controller case design. I added the Art Deco "wings" to the dome, ran a beaded base around the perimeter, and then an aluminum plate under that. Please forgive the cheesy "stone" texture, I had to stop somewhere, and just wanted to get an idea how it would look in faux stone.









The controller in this model is actually a mock-up of an Open Revolt, paired with a shrunken (scaled-down) Open Revolt mockup on top, for the SepEx field control. There should be enough internal volume to fit what's needed. Design-first.  The aluminum bottom plate is for mounting the whole assembly, and would also be useful in wicking some of the residual heat away; as it would be mounted directly to the steel motor mount. The aluminum plate inside would be a custom chill plate, with a small radiator and fan hidden somewhere on the car; probably right under the front of the swingarm.

The key is everything is still over-the-top design, but much simpler to pull off. Rather than a full aluminum CAD/CNC housing, this is carbon fiber, created from a CAD/CNC foam plug, with faux stone final finish, so I don't even have to worry about getting the cloth patterns to lay and match. The aluminum mounting plate is a simple profile cut that the ShopBot can do easily. Even more elaborate design, simpler production process - maximum return on the investment of resources... 

The gauge panel I designed for Schism is also going to end up on PackRat, in a smaller version that holds a smartphone. That beaded base was created with the exact curve I use for that part, so a perfect match. The gauge panel will be cut in Maple burl, to match the steering wheel, and will have a black plastic center panel that will allow me to upgrade smartphones with the same wooden bezel. I'll post renderings of that model soon.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

I didn't feel like doing the usual cut-n-grind (on the rear suspension) today, so I decided to cut the particle board test version of the steering wheel rim. The first step was getting the particle board block machined to match the Maple burl block, so that I could run through the entire machine process. I had to find any the glitches and pitfalls, before putting that burl block "under the knife".











It took all day (running the machine slow for quality and a light touch on the burl wood), but I walked away with a very nice rim! 








I didn't machine the radiused counterbores for the mounting pins because I needed to keep as much material there for fixturing as possible. I just barely missed the screws. The counterbores will be radiused by hand.



It is an absolute perfect fit on the Grant wheel!  It just drops on and really hugs the steel hoop. The wire ring is for just in case I manage to bump it - particle board cut like this is one fall away from being broken or destroyed.









I hope to get the real deal cut next week...


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

My process of work a few days, take a break for a day, or two, or three, has been working really well for this build, so I took the weekend off, again. I have been doing some design and thinking, about the rear suspension, though. Here's what I have cooking...

















The rear mount is golden, and matches the front swingarm mount. I have some concerns about the "shackle" that drops down off the swingarm to the bottom shock mount. Right now, I have a couple old motorcycle shocks. The plan is to weld a stud on the bottom that would fit in a bushing, or rod end, on the shackle. That allows easy ride height adjustments. I can also purchase good aftermarket shocks with the same upper eye/lower stud mounts later. What I am not sure of is how the movement of the swingarm is going to translate into actual shock travel. This is admittedly design-first, and further testing is needed to see if it will work properly.

The point of the design is to add complexity to the rear suspension, lower it in the chassis, and bring the wrap-around frame design fully into perspective. The whole point of that is to incorporate the rear wheel and suspension into the vehicle mechanically; as opposed to having it kind of floating behind the vehicle, or totally engulfed in bodywork. I think this design accomplishes that perfectly.









I also sat in the seat and gripped that steering wheel and it is a beautiful thing, if you don't mind me saying so myself!  The wood and steel rim feels elegant, fits _perfectly_ in my paws, and my thumbs just land in that scooped out area. Combined with the ultra smooth action of the Honda rack, it feels really upscale. With the real, finished, Maple rim and smooth, silent, electric drive I think PackRat is going to be a treat to "motor about" in. I might have to buy some turn-of-the-20th-century apparel to get the full effect!


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## ElectriCar (Jun 15, 2008)

Looking good! Especially the steering wheel, that's gonna be a beauty!


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## ken will (Dec 19, 2009)




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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

ElectriCar said:


> Looking good! Especially the steering wheel, that's gonna be a beauty!


Thanks!  This whole project is developing so well that I have decided to really _*try*_ (note the emphasis) to hang on to it, not just _delay_ selling. It ultimately depends on what type of deals I make to secure my future, but I will bargain aggressively for a place to keep it after December... 



ken will said:


>


That's it - colors and all!


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

The steering wheel looks good, the MDF also gives it a bit of a 'stony' look.

Not sure but would that rear suspension set up give you a falling spring rate as it compresses?

Maybe try to get the spring tangential with the swing arm arc of movement.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Woodsmith said:


> The steering wheel looks good, the MDF also gives it a bit of a 'stony' look...


Thanks Woody.  "MDF" might sue you for slander though, that sir is lowly particle board. I am amazed that the edge you see in the pics came out so well. On the back side where it mates to the rim it was chunking out as it machined the edge, and the little hunks of wood chips didn't have enough bond to remain in place. That's why the wire ring is there - if it falls, it's probably a goner, as thin as it is.

Why did I machine in particle board instead of the more common/stable MDF? Just to see if I could.  I figured if I could run the machine gently enough to keep particle board together, the Maple burl should be fine under pressure. 






Woodsmith said:


> ...Not sure but would that rear suspension set up give you a falling spring rate as it compresses?...


I don't know! That's what I'm wondering too, along with a few other things I can see going wrong!  I really haven't even seriously considered it, or looked into it yet, as I am still officially _off-duty_. Making the pattern was relaxing - figuring out if/how it will work probably not so much so, so that's on hold until tomorrow.







Woodsmith said:


> ...Maybe try to get the spring tangential with the swing arm arc of movement.


The number one rule here is *design first*. I like the angle the shock is at. It matches the seat back and rear roll up of the wheel and tire - the lines work. Whatever has to be done, whatever the consequences, that stays; somehow...


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

toddshotrods said:


> The number one rule here is *design first*. I like the angle the shock is at. It matches the seat back and rear roll up of the wheel and tire - the lines work. Whatever has to be done, whatever the consequences, that stays; somehow...


OK, how about having that 'strap' between the hub and the bottom end of the spring a rigid part of the swing arm. That would improve the suspension and keep the resting angle of the spring where you want it. Also if the spring has a fairly short travel then that will be better too, though the ride may be a bit harsh.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

On a completely different subject.

I notice on your chassis that you have a full width cross member that effectively joins front and rear halves of the chassis rails instead of having the rails run front to rear complete.

Is there any loss, or compromise, in the chassis stiffness or strength doing that over having complete, full length, rails?
I am looking at doing likewise on my trike to make the rear of the chassis wider then the front without mitering or bending the rails.

Cheers.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Woodsmith said:


> OK, how about having that 'strap' between the hub and the bottom end of the spring a rigid part of the swing arm. That would improve the suspension and keep the resting angle of the spring where you want it. Also if the spring has a fairly short travel then that will be better too, though the ride may be a bit harsh.


Yeah, I can do that. I have enough steel plate left to extend the flat sections of the swingarm, that mount the wheel, down to the shock lower mounts; in nice, sweeping, tapering, arcs.  Lot's of mad hammering coming up... 






Woodsmith said:


> On a completely different subject.
> 
> I notice on your chassis that you have a full width cross member that effectively joins front and rear halves of the chassis rails instead of having the rails run front to rear complete.
> 
> ...


As is, yes, that's a compromise in stiffness over a straight rail. Think about the bending force on the cross section crossmember there. The solution will be gussets and reinforcements, which means more weight.

The reason is this is a leftover chassis from the ill-fated G-bucket kit car idea. That chassis was designed to be space frame style, using a central main box, with front and rear suspension boxes, all tied together with a roll cage, so the cage was actually responsible for that longitudinal stiffness, as well as torsional strength. In Schism, even without the full, closed body, cage, the roadster style cage should accomplish the same thing.

On PackRat, I would ideally have had two straight, full-length rails, with crossmembers - a ladder frame. I will compensate with large, sculptured gussets, (hopefully) making the final frame look more like a giant, organic, cast piece of metal. If I get it right the structural integrity will be buried in that.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

toddshotrods said:


> As is, yes, that's a compromise in stiffness over a straight rail. Think about the bending force on the cross section crossmember there. The solution will be gussets and reinforcements, which means more weight.


OK, cheers.
I'll skip that option and figure a better way to build the chassis.

Back on topic.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Working at a nice leisurely old dude pace, I got the two rear plates cut, ground, and drilled. Hopefully, tomorrow the old dude will get the front plates done, and tack this all together...


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

I love the rear suspension. I couldn't wait to move the momentum and creative vibe I had going in front to the back, and it's still flowing. I wasn't planning on anything this exotic when I started this project. 










It has 60's American car style fins! 










I cut-ground-hammered-welded the front shock mount plates today. I'll get the mounting eyes on tomorrow, tack the rear plates, and that's my rear suspension! 





















After that, I have to pause and take a good look to make sure everything I need is in place for the big weld-up, then break it all down, if so. The plan is for it to go back together on the floor, after welding. There will be more fabrication, of course, and more welding, but that will be the transition point from getting a basic car roughed in to making that car functional.

I'm thinking about shopping the roller around for a partner to display it at the Goodguys show. I really don't want to do the mad rush to try to drive it in, but would love to have it there as an under construction project.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

I love the way PackRat is developing.  <---Green with envy grin!

Mine could have been like that had a certain someone not kept on about honey seats!



I am also finding the idea of legs outside the hood and batteries inside quite inspiring, not sure to what end yet but....

....That's sorta what I have with the tractor.
Hmmmmm......Tractor needs rebuilding....Want tractor to be road legal....Big rear tractor tyres.....


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Woodsmith said:


> I love the way PackRat is developing.  <---Green with envy grin!...









Woodsmith said:


> ...Mine could have been like that had a certain someone not kept on about honey seats!...


 That's why I'm building the car first - then find a honey to go along for the ride! 






Woodsmith said:


> ...I am also finding the idea of legs outside the hood and batteries inside quite inspiring, not sure to what end yet but....
> 
> ....That's sorta what I have with the tractor.
> Hmmmmm......Tractor needs rebuilding....Want tractor to be road legal....Big rear tractor tyres.....


This entire project is so far outside the norm - I love it! I've been trying to get to this for years, but they always start out or end up with a lot of conventional _flavor_ - not so this time! It's just whatever happens to come out of my twisted mind... 


Screw having your feet on the ground - why not fly! Maybe I should consider props instead of wheels. 










Beyond my goofiness, this is more research to verify what's on the table before welding it up.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Still working on getting a sense of the big picture, the complete vehicle, I've started machining the foam cores for the controller housing. I have two more foam pieces (where the wings meet the dome), and then a mock-up of the base plate, to go.









It's like a retro science fiction movie on wheels!


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

If you haven't already assumed as much, I am on one of my shop sabbaticals.  Friday, I did a little work but have been so anti-work that I wouldn't even post the pics Friday _or_ Saturday!  So, here is Friday's finale to a pretty good week. I developed a fixturing process and carved out the inside of the grille shell, on the ShopBot.










The point is to create a 3-dimensional effect when you look at the grille - so it's not a flat plate sitting in a recess.










This is more of the effort to move the design-first/pure design thrust from Schism to PackRat. PackRat gets the over-the-top mesh grille. I will approach it a little differently than the two-piece, prototyped and cast, aluminum shell I was working on for Schism. The point is to develop something I have more control over, and less dependence on outside sources, to realize. Again, PackRat provides maximum effectiveness with far less effort. One, this grille is probably half the size of Schism's, with regard to area, so less of the mesh bars to produce. Secondly, since there is a hood and the grille shell is an actual part of that, I don't need such an elaborate approach to develop an upscale feel. I've started working on the mesh in CAD and just floating the mesh assembly in the opening automatically creates the "feel" I was working so hard to develop with Schism. 

More to come...


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

After my break, I've been working on lots of small stuff, trying to get this thing ready to roll. I finally got around to TIG'ing the radius rod studs to the plates. They will be MIG'd and blended on the outsides but I drilled and chamfered a hole on the back of the plate to plug weld them for a little extra security. I really, really, burned these in - notice the heat patterns on the plate, and down the stud...








I'm considering going completely overboard with a tube welded between them, which would be concealed in the crossmember.



Then, in more OCD insanity, I spent a ridiculous amount of time fixturing the shocks in the mill and milled the bottoms true for the studs - these are throwaway initial setup parts...  I hand filed the outside edges that the end mill couldn't reach without hitting the vise.










Then welded the studs (bolts which were turned down) on. I did resist the temptation to TIG these. 












The rear suspension is tacked and stitched together enough now that the car is sitting on it - I can't stop bouncing it! 












Now I'm on to the front, finishing up some details for it to bear the weight of the vehicle, and fabricating the front crossmember.

More to come...


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

Looks good!

I can definitely see the radiator cowl in a stone effect, the lines and edges lend themselves well to it.

The rear suspension if coming along nicely. I can see the lines you are after.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Woodsmith said:


> Looks good!
> 
> I can definitely see the radiator cowl in a stone effect, the lines and edges lend themselves well to it...


Thanks Woody!  I can't wait to get to the stone process. I think it's going to really bring out what I have been chasing in my head. There's still a few details I need to sort out to bring this whole package together, but it's getting there. I have some detail to add to the seat soon that should really start to tie it all in; I hope...

I've definitely pushed myself out there (intentionally) with this one because I have to really stretch outside of conventional automotive design language to bring it to life.






Woodsmith said:


> ...The rear suspension if coming along nicely. I can see the lines you are after.


I'm really happy that it works, and very well too. Thanks for your input on that.



A member of the community workshop, who loves this project, was checking it out yesterday and commented that it reminds him of the movie "The Great Gatsby". That made me smile because, even though I haven't see more than previews for the movie, it's about the Roaring 20's, and is evidently a grandiose portrayal of that period, which is right in line with what I'm trying to communicate. I want it to look like a fantasy car from some (a few?) distant eras, like something you would see in a fantasy movie from/about those times...


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

The front crossmember is finally underway. I started with a simple piece of 2" tubing. There will be a second half-inch radius rolled step up to the top of the frame rails on the outsides, and a flat _shelf_ will extend from under the grille out to the top of the 2" tube between. I'm going to hammer rolled corners to tie into the outside walls of the frame rails.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

I reserved the ShopBot from 2pm-2am today. I also posted on the community board that I would change if someone needs the machine. If no one does - today is the final (ShopBot) stage for the steering wheel rim!

Beautifully sculptured rim or bust...


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

Good luck!


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Woodsmith said:


> Good luck!


Thanks Woody!  I put in a request for some photo/video people to capture some of the process, if possible. This is quite a story. A journey across continents and years, to create one tiny little accent piece...


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

In the meantime, take a look at this and offer comments, feedback, opinions, if you will. I came up with the bright idea to do a waterfall grille, instead of the mesh. So, using a section of the mesh tube, with a straight section, I tried to create the impression of water falling, like over a falls, with the requisite dissipated spray at the bottom.









Of course, it's an artistic swipe at that with a few bars, and more of a slow, consistent, waveform than a chaotic spray. I turned the bars, 9-degrees more each time, as they move inward, ending at 45-degrees (from the vehicle center line) for the center two bars. The outer bars are at 90-degrees. The point was to create an imaginary bow, and to be certain that you see the spray from every angle; never a row of straight-appearing bars.

If, I continue on this path, there would be a funnel like, aluminum, faucet nipple at the top of each bar; and a lower aluminum plate with a divot that the bar plunges into and surface ripples radiating out from it.

Can you see it, or will I totally miss the mark on this one?


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

Spot on with the grille, especially with the spouts and ripples to come.

Arch an I can see it and like it.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Woodsmith said:


> Spot on with the grille, especially with the spouts and ripples to come.
> 
> Arch an I can see it and like it.


Thanks "Wood-n-Arch"! You guys should get married under one... 

I will proceed with the true insanity of modeling all those tiny little nipples and ripples then!  You realize this is all taking place inside a window less than a square foot right?!  The new plan is a result of the Columbus Idea Foundry purchasing a new 3D printer, which I will be able to use like the other equipment. Knowing that I can finally do this grille and have full control, opened the creative floodgates...


The ShopBot is whittling away at the maple block. It's currently roughing the back side, then finishing, then all over again on the front. I burned about two hours on programming, setup, fixturing, checking, double checking, triple checking, fixturing, repeat, repeat, repeat...


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

As mentioned, the initial setup took about two hours. I worked slowly, trying to be certain to get the ring in position securely, prepare the way for the second side, and make sure that the final product was centrally located in the available material. I cut a fixture from plywood that had a recess the ring fit in, drilled the fixturing holes in it, used spray adhesive to temporarily secure the ring, and then drilled the fixturing holes in the ring one at a time, also physically holding it with my hands at each of the three locations, then securing that location with a screw before moving to the next one. Then I removed the screws, one at a time, and machined a counterbore to sink the screw below the surface that was to be machined; again holding it with my hands, then replacing the screw before moving to the next one. That all worked perfectly.










Then machined the first (back) side. This is the roughing pass. I was so focused on making sure everything was working properly, I forgot to take pics of the finishing passes.











Second (front) side roughing. I set the screws in counterbores on this side too, but also eliminated any counterbore from the model, and added pegs over the screw locations, so the bit wouldn't come near the steel screws. The pegs were destroyed in the process because they were the same size as the counterbore. I really just needed the radius at the bottom, left by the ball nosed end mill.



















And seven hours after the machining actually started - success - a perfect rim! 



















For some reason, I am into acorn nuts on this car. I want them on the front suspension radius rod frame mounts, and want them here. I plan to weld studs to the spokes that the rim will slip over, and be secured with acorn nuts. For now, I will use the best ones I can find. I would like to find some 12pt acorn nuts, but no luck on that so far. If I were to keep this project long-term, and go completely off the deep end with it, I would design my own and machine them, with a special drive and matching socket.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

Well done! 

Personally though I would have had the nicely figured area centered and symmetrical but....


It looks really good, can't wait to see it with a finish on it to really bring out the grain and figure.

What are 'acorn nuts'?

Make sure the welded studs are smaller then the holes in the wood so that it can move a little as humidity changes.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Woodsmith said:


> Well done! ...
> 
> ...It looks really good, can't wait to see it with a finish on it to really bring out the grain and figure...


Thanks Woody!  Agreed. I toyed with the brightness and contrast on the two pics of the bare rim to bring it out a bit. Should be purty...






Woodsmith said:


> ...Personally though I would have had the nicely figured area centered and symmetrical but...


The funny thing is I had it arranged so that there would be a splash of figured wood at all three landings - from what I could see in the wood. It's all so random and unpredictable in this piece though, that by the time it was cut the other two areas were gone!  From what I was looking at, if I had rotated that figured area to the top or bottom, the rest of the wheel would have been bare, by comparison.

There was also a defected area where I thought I would run out of material on the top, that I tried to purposely capture. My plan was to fill it with clear resin so the defect would show - making it seem more natural. That was my plan anyway.  As it turned out, there's just a tiny, thumbnail-sized, patch left; that might look more like an accident than a naturally defective piece of wood.  That was operator error - miscalculation... 








Woodsmith said:


> ...Make sure the welded studs are smaller then the holes in the wood so that it can move a little as humidity changes...


Yup. 






Woodsmith said:


> ...What are 'acorn nuts'?...


If you search for them you usually come up with the rounded top, closed, nuts, but these are real acorn nuts. If I get anal enough, I can make what I want by cutting the acorn section off and TIG'ing it to a 12pt nut. That's a lot of time spent running tiny little beads though...


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

toddshotrods said:


> The funny thing is I had it arranged so that there would be a splash of figured wood at all three landings - from what I could see in the wood. It's all so random and unpredictable in this piece though, that by the time it was cut the other two areas were gone!  From what I was looking at, if I had rotated that figured area to the top or bottom, the rest of the wheel would have been bare, by comparison.


That's the funny thing with figured wood, even the best have to guess at where the figure goes. Experience helps the guess, but it is still a guess when all's said and done.

I see what you mean about the acorn nuts now. I was imagining the more common domed nuts and thinking that would be a little tame and simple for you.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Woodsmith said:


> ...that would be a little tame and simple for you.


I have no idea what you're talking about.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Enough playing with wood for a bit, back to a little metal work. I created a tube in CAD, punched a hole in it, and unrolled that surface (plug that came out of the hole) to create a curve, which I cut in poster board on the laser, to create this little football.










Then I wrapped it around the actual piece of steel tubing that's the beginning of the front crossmember, and it became a pattern for a round hole again.










To guide me on the manual milling machine, to make a pocket to receive this little guy.










In true rat rod fashion, the main section of the crossmember was made from the piece of tubing that was cut off of the Honda steering rack. This little metal ring was in the end of it. It will hold my "Bat T" logo. 

I will see just how far overboard I can go with Columbus Idea Foundry equipment in the making of this little "Bat T" motor meter - another concept being transplanted from Schism and realized here. Laser, ShopBot, 3D printer, manual milling machine, TIG, MIG, etc, all in less than a 2" circle - can you say O.C.D?! 

I am not 100% sure where I am going yet - just having fun following my creative instincts. In my head I am thinking that motor meters actively displayed the temperature of the ICE. Since PackRat is all-electric, it would be better to show some function of the electric drive, with an acrylic lens that is back lit with blue LEDs. It would be fun to make them pulsate slowly when powered-up but sitting still, and then increase in frequency as the power ramps up (moving), but that requires tinkering with Arduino or something, or finding someone who wants to; so we'll see.  I bored a hole in the back side of the tubing to get wiring inside...


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Yesterday was Columbus' Red White & Boom, so after I did that little motor meter mount piece, I moved my efforts to the office to start winding down and preparing for the evening of fun, food, and fireworks. CAD is relaxing to me, so it was the perfect bridge between fabrication and festivities. I started on the motor meter lens.

Today, I had to take Benadryl to combat the effects of the cigarette, food, and fireworks, smoke on my allergies. I don't fall asleep on it, but I am much slower and less physically motivated than normal, so the office was my playground again.  I have been working on this little bugger all day, and think I have it where I want it. Keep in mind this whole thing is 1.400" in diameter - a little bigger than a U.S. half-dollar coin!  The only thing I didn't do, that I should have, was check the resolution of the 3D printer to see if my tiny little details will even print correctly! 










And with a little transparency, to help imagine it as a clear lens...


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Another design concept being transplanted from Schism, and realized on PackRat, is the antique-digital gauge panel. I'm also getting back to my original idea of having as many functions monitored and controlled by a smartphone as possible. I downsized the panel to phone size, simplified it greatly, and made it much more modular. It will be cut in matching maple burl (whenever I find a piece I like as much), with an aluminum plate recessed and bonded into the back, and a swappable plate that fits in a recess in the front. My current plan is to build a crazy, steampunk, front plate with little, spring-loaded, arms to secure the phone, and the docking connecter. I will probably build that in a bunch of different types of metal so that it's interesting to look at when the phone isn't docked.


















The rear plate will be drilled and tapped to allow mounting the panel to the dash, and the front plate to bolt to it. That's what makes the modular design work. The panel itself is just a wood-trimmed mount for whatever I decide to put on it; and it can be mounted however/wherever I want to put it.










Schism's needs had evolved beyond what could be reasonably manged by my iPhone, but PackRat is tailor-made for this bright idea. There is a security system with an app that includes an electric "engine start" button (on the phone), that I should be able to use to open the main contactors. So it would power up the 12v system with deactivation of the security system, and then power the traction system (open the contactors) with the "start" button. Maybe I can get them to change "engine" to "electric" on the phone screen. 

Also, I can now get iPhone apps that will display the crucial EV information, so this idea is finally ripe. 

I plan to cut an MDF mock-up soon. If I like that I will probably cut the aluminum rear plate, and start on a front docking plate. That way, by the time I finally find a piece of wood I like it should simply be a matter of whittling it and swapping/bonding it in.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

I cut the mock-up gauge panel from a scrap piece of particle board (didn't have a small scrap piece of MDF). I have been working on design stuff to try to give myself a breather. I'm really, really, sick of doing metal fab.  I need to save up for one more push to at least get PackRat rolling and then see what I want to do from there. Anyway...

I also cut acrylic mock-ups of the rear mounting plate and the front docking plate. I added a few more curves to the front panel, where it opens up for the docking plate, before I cut it and now think that I might forgo the docking plate and just make the attachment arms bolt directly to the rear plate.










The rear plate will be aluminum and will be bonded into the wood bezel. I still need to round the outside rear edges on the router table.











And, here's what I was trying to get to - to see my idea on the car. It will _float_ over the steering column, and match the steering wheel. I think I am going to have little spherical "pods" on the sides to hold the switches. I have a really unique idea, but don't want to share it yet.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

That looks good.
Hopefully you will find a nice bit of wood for it soon.


Then another two years and a cross continent discussion before the final cut!


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Woodsmith said:


> That looks good.
> Hopefully you will find a nice bit of wood for it soon.
> 
> 
> Then another two years and a cross continent discussion before the final cut!


Thanks! 

 We might be able to knock a couple months off that, since it's so little!


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

_Journal Entry:_
When I made the decision to take the plunge, and build this little speedster for myself, I started out building a vehicle to meet deadlines; the local Goodguys show was first on the agenda. Goodguys is this coming weekend, and PackRat is obviously not going to it. That was a purposed decision, made over the last month. I had originally planned to just throw this thing together, to free my other projects from the pressure of looming deadlines, allowing Schism to pursue a "pure design" mandate.

In the process, however, I found that PackRat was much better suited, and had much more potential, as a pure design project so I began transferring my design concepts and aspirations to this project. At that point, I was still building with Goodguys in my sights. Eventually though, I saw more unique possibilities than what I know would _go over_ well at that type of show - I decided to explore them.

I decided to remove Goodguys from PackRat's agenda to allow it to develop freely. We have a visit from a major philanthropic organization on the 19th, for which I would like to have it on the shop floor, but the next target date is the Columbus Mini Maker Faire, on October 13th. That's the event the Columbus Idea Foundry sponsors, and where I debuted and (slowly) demonstrated Scrape last year. I think they'll "get it". I think most of the hardcore American musclecar and hot rod enthusiasts at Goodguys would just scratch and shake their heads, wondering _why?_... "Creative" to most of those guys seems to be a different hood on a 69 Camaro or 32 Ford. 

This week, after a much needed break, I resume metal fab and hopefully get it on the shop floor. Then, I have a comfortable three months to make it work.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Getting set up for this week's metal fab. I made a pattern for the crossmember top plate and marked the frame rails to trim them for the upper radius.









And laid out the cuts for the radius pieces.










I'm thinking about (manually) machining and hand grinding the rolled corners, from solid steel bar stock.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

I think I am going to like this crossmember. I took my time with it, and let it simmer, creatively. That decision is paying off, because the Art Deco influence that has been developing on PackRat is really coming through in it now. My original ideas for it were much more bland; by _Todd_ standards... 

I cut and fit the top plate, trimmed the frame rails, and cut and fit the upper radius pieces.











These two little piggies are about to become the rolled corner pieces. 










This is nowhere near precision machining, but I am using layout dye because it can stand up to being splashed and immersed in coolant, as I do the initial rough-in on the manual mill. The guide lines were hand "scratched" with a diamond tip bit in the _Dremel_. I'm going to hog a little material out of the middle (inside the inner lines) to get more reasonable weld edges, and then rough out the profile (outer lines), then it's all hand shaping with my beastly Porter Cable right-angle grinder. I'll let my mood and the metal guide the way...  I booked the manual mill until 8pm tomorrow.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

It ain't pretty in there; wasn't supposed to be.  "Pretty" comes later, by hand, on the outside. My goal here was to get rid of some metal to make welding an easier/better process; and to get close enough on the outside to allow me to focus on shaping, instead of material removal.










I turned the Porter Cable loose, briefly, on the bottom roll just to make sure my plan was going to work - cuts like butter!  Tomorrow, I will rough out the other piece on the mill, clean up my mess there, and start filling the shop floor with grinding dust...


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

A couple thoughts I have brewing for PackRat; one on the aesthetic aspect, one on the EV-technical side of things:

Someone posted this link on the Columbus Idea Foundry Yahoo Group board, and I can't get it out of my head!  Since we happen to have aluminum casting here... I am planning to test this on a couple pieces to see how it works. If successful, the dash panel may be the first victim, then some matching pedal pads. It it really works well, and I can get my nerve up, those "landing pads" on that two-year steering wheel rim project?!?!  Woody? Thoughts?! 




















Then, on the EV-technical side, PackRat has clearly moved into firm territory in my heart and plans for the future. In the search for a way to keep it in the mix, long-term, I have been thinking of it side-by-side with Scrape, as a marketing tool/research vehicle. I want to go high-tech, AC, pure technological, with Scrape; which leaves room for PackRat to fill lighter, lesser, more pedestrian, needs. The SepEx DC motor plays right into this because it can mimic many of the desirable aspects of AC (regen, contactor-less reverse, field weakening, etc) on a much more economical scale. Planted in this bizarre little trike, I'm also more inclined to think in terms of normal driving enjoyment than racing, so the cost of having fun (batteries) is also reasonable.

What I am toying with is manual/automatic field control like Ferraris, and other supercars, with the "clutch-less", sequential, paddle-shifted transmissions. The ratcheting, antique-paddle-shifter, mechanism I was working on for Schism could control a simple TPS that controls the field controller. I can have as many speeds as I want, 5, 6, 7, 20!, and paddle my way through electronic gear changes like those supercars do with their super sophisticated electro-mechanical transmissions. With a data acquisition system I can develop control strategies for automatic control of a SepEx DC motor, which could be programmed into the controller software, ultimately allowing me to click the switch and let the controller do all the decision making in "automatic" mode.

At least that's what my brain is thinking, in theory... It's basically an idea that I've had in mind for a couple/few years to control this motor. I was going to use it in Schism for racing, but it makes much more sense for simple fun in PackRat, I think.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

toddshotrods said:


> If successful, the dash panel may be the first victim, then some matching pedal pads. It it really works well, and I can get my nerve up, those "landing pads" on that two-year steering wheel rim project?!?!  Woody? Thoughts?!


I am wondering what is going to happen to those 'chair legs' as the moisture content of the log changes.
The log would start moving the legs about as the outside of the tree contracts and swells.

If the aluminum is more rigid then the wood could crack and splinter instead.

For a piece of contemporary furniture that is not a problem. I wouldn't risk it with your steering wheel, or the thin instruments frame.

I think it is an interesting thing to experiment with though, maybe on block shaped areas of timber, perhaps to cast in a piece of wood as pedal pads to see what happens. Maybe that would be fine and would work well, but look out for how to replace the wood as it wears or if it cracks and works loose.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Woodsmith said:


> I am wondering what is going to happen to those 'chair legs' as the moisture content of the log changes...





Woodsmith said:


> ...I think it is an interesting thing to experiment with though, maybe on block shaped areas of timber, perhaps to cast in a piece of wood as pedal pads to see what happens. Maybe that would be fine and would work well, but look out for how to replace the wood as it wears or if it cracks and works loose.


I would lock the moisture content where it was after casting, with a full clear epoxy coat. That's how the wood steering wheels and interior accents in vehicles are - they're completely sealed and locked. A friend purchased an aftermarket Mahogany steering wheel for his truck and to the touch it is a hard plastic wheel. You just know you're holding a wood rim, so your mind kind of completes the visual and it feels expensive. His truck is a conversion and came loaded with custom upholstery and tons of handcrafted real Mahogany wood in it - all epoxied. In the years I rode in that truck nothing ever changed. No cracks, no corners lifting, etc.





Woodsmith said:


> ...If the aluminum is more rigid then the wood could crack and splinter instead...


If my wood stuff cracks, but doesn't completely break apart, I consider that a plus. It would be sort of like _patina_, and add to the antique theme.






Woodsmith said:


> ...I wouldn't risk it with your steering wheel, or the thin instruments frame...


The gauge panel is easily replaceable. It only takes a couple hours to machine that again, and under $20 worth of wood.

The steering wheel, after our two-year journey, is another story. If that gets screwed up, it's getting replaced with something "normal"!  That being said, if the other pieces worked perfectly, I would still be willing to try it, but probably not with the landing pads. They will be fabricated steel welded right into the wheel spokes. I would do something simple like machine out pockets and pour three little puddles in the landing areas, then machine those to accept the acorn mounting nuts. So it would have the matching burnt wood/cast aluminum aesthetic - hopefully without destroying the rim! 




Fear not, for the time being, it's all just talk right now. First, I need to get this puppy on the ground. I machined the other frame corner piece today, and am in the process of grinding them to shape. That is going really well, albeit slowly. The metal gets pretty hot, so I grind a little on one, then the other, then let them cool for a while, before resuming the grinding work...


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

I suppose, for me, it has always been an oiled or waxed finish on wood as I like to feel the wood when I touch it. Modern polyurethane varnish and epoxy resins are all very well for the modern 'need' but you only really feel the 'plastic' finish and not the wood itself.

I'm just old skool like that.


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## MalcolmB (Jun 10, 2008)

Yes, I agree with Woodsmith, at least 50 per cent of the attraction of wood is its tactile sensation. I really like the combination of cast metal and raw wood though.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

MalcolmB said:


> Yes, I agree with Woodsmith, at least 50 per cent of the attraction of wood is its tactile sensation. I really like the combination of cast metal and raw wood though.


I never really remember thinking about it until now, but it's really the visual for me. I love the grain and colors, but don't really get a lot of out feeling it in my hands - probably why I come from a family of wood-oriented men, but chose to go off on my own decades long obsession with metal. I got sucked into the composites world for making money, but really always enjoyed steel and aluminum most.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Woodsmith said:


> I suppose, for me, it has always been an oiled or waxed finish on wood as I like to feel the wood when I touch it. Modern polyurethane varnish and epoxy resins are all very well for the modern 'need' but you only really feel the 'plastic' finish and not the wood itself.
> 
> I'm just old skool like that.


I finally picked up on that. That's why I mentioned the epoxy finish, because I realized that we were essentially talking about two different conditions; one waxed or oiled and still "breathing", and the other preserved and sealed like an Egyptian mummy!


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Both corners are roughed in. I will do a little more work on them after they're welded in, and eventually a lot of detail work when I detail the rest of the chassis. Tomorrow, I will fit these and tack all this together. I have to narrow the main tube and the upper radius pieces to tuck them in laterally; and cut back into the frame just a bit more to pull the corners back longitudinally. I also have to cut a little wedge out and pull the top inch of the frame rails in to match the inset upper section of the corners.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

I really like the look of that. 

When it is blended in it will look like the rails were forged with that end profile.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Woodsmith said:


> I really like the look of that.
> 
> When it is blended in it will look like the rails were forged with that end profile.


Thanks Woody! I hope to have them fit and tacked in later today... I can't wait to finally, finally, see this thing on the floor!


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Man, I had to fight for this one! All those pieces were a challenge, to say the least, to get mocked up. My two large magnets are pretty pitiful hanging under the bottom of the frame, so every time I had to tap on a piece the magnet would fall off, letting the corner and upper radius from that side fall.  My one good magnet held the right side securely, so everything didn't fall apart. Then those two little upper radius pieces were cut perfectly to size but would fall inside the frame rail at the slightest hint of a bump. I fought with it for quite a while, because I wanted to see the whole thing mocked up before welding anything. After I got past that it was easy because I could locate a piece, tack it, locate another, tack it, and so on...

Eventually I won the battle, welded the whole thing up, then spent a little time with the big Porter Cable, smoothing it out. This is still just a rough-in, but you should be able to see it. 

















It's not completely welded yet. I did this much just because I _had_ to see this as one piece. Tomorrow, I move back to the radius rod frame mounts, and probably the seat mounts - then off to the welding area (hopefully before the weekend is over).


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## Joey (Oct 12, 2007)

Metal magician. Looks really good.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

That looks great, really nice work.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Joey said:


> Metal magician. Looks really good.





Woodsmith said:


> That looks great, really nice work.


Thanks guys!  Sorry for the blurry pics, I was pretty wiped out near the end. The shadows and marks from the grinding and sanding wheels tend to change the appearance of the actual shape a bit. I'm hoping to get some good pics of it when it's on the floor, and under better lighting. Also, a D-A (orbital) sander will give the metal an even consistent surface, so that light picks up the actual shape, not the varying surface textures. I really need to invest in a can of bare metal protectant soon. That's how the pros keep the projects nice while they're working on them. I will (clear) paint and powder coat the "final" versions.

More to come...


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Today is a pivotal day. Three months and one week from the beginning of this little project, the event that helped inspire its creation is blazing in full steam just two blocks away; the Goodguy PPG Nationals musclecar and street rod extravaganza. I am, however, here in my little office. I didn't go yesterday, didn't go today, and likely won't go tomorrow. I pulled the plug on the quest to get PackRat there about a month ago, and took a gamble on the likelihood of me being there a couple weeks ago; and I could really care less. 

I'm pretty much done with "old cars". Professionally, I am heading towards teaching and mentoring; personally, I am back to motorcycles - the one slight twist being my little trike, which is really neither a car, nor "old". Instead of roaming the fairgrounds admiring vintage vehicles, I spent the day here pulling PackRat off the table, dismantling the table, rearranging the shop, and _finally_ getting my little trike on the floor. It is purposed and appropriate that my office door is now flanked my future (projects). 










I need to cut a couple more stable wheel discs, and I will be able to get it all the way on its own "feet". The steering works, with mock-up tie rods tacked in place. I can't wait to see if the front suspension works properly! Then, I will finally get it all welded up.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

_Journal Entry:_
As expected, I didn't go to the Goodguys show at all. I reset the shop Friday, started the process of resetting myself mentally Saturday, and relaxed Sunday. Columbus Idea foundry is having an Open House this coming Sunday (the 21st), so I will continue the transformation of the studio this week, and work on making PackRat _look_ as complete as possible.

This "reset" is about me finally completing my transition from automotive customizer/shop owner, to more of a knowledgeable _expert_. I started that 4-1/2 years ago, with the move to Columbus, but took a little _off-road_ excursion with the, now defunct, Inhaler Project. I want to get paid for what I know, rather than what my hands can do. I have been paying the bills that way so far this year; teaching basic classes. I will be rolling out more of those soon, along with some other plans to, I hope profitably, share what I think I know. 

PackRat and Scrape are my _living_ portfolio, proof positive that I am not just a bunch of hot air, and that those three decades I am always harping about were actual experiences; not sales/fantasy hype. Now that the foundations are set, I'll be pushing the limits ideologically (design) with PackRat, and technologically with Scrape.

I still have mixed emotions about Columbus. The truth is it's working, moderately, for me and it's cheap and easy to operate here. If I had a better opportunity someplace else, I would probably be packed and gone in a nano-second. Columbus Idea Foundry is pretty cool, and I will continue to collaborate with them, as long as I have any time/roots here. Eventually, I will move my little operation (office, PackRat, and Scrape) out of it, and just come in to teach and network though, even if I decide to stay in Columbus.


In all, this has been a really good year, so far, punctuated by a good weekend. Now to see where it all ends up after 2013, Part Two! 



*Back to the matter at hand:*
Today, I'm going to cut a couple more rigid wheel discs and get the Rat all the way on the floor. The current discs are 23" in diameter. I cut 24" and 23" discs out of thin plastic to see the effect of the different tire sizes, while it was on the table. I am going to cut two 21.5" discs today. The easiest, most economical, way to get front wheels on this thing - that fit the _role_ - would be with space saver spare steel rims. Cheap and narrow. I can mount either 125R-15 car tires (23" diameter), or 120/70R-15 scooter tires (21.5" diameter). Aesthetically, I think I would love having motorcycle tires at all three points, _and_ the scooter tires are shorter, which should help develop a sporty raked wedge effect. There are H-rated scooter tires that size, and the weight rating on all of them is above what they'll have to carry. The space savers (for a Pontiac Grand Am) come with a 125/70R-15 tire that will be a perfect stand-in for the scooter tire. It's rounded, short, and safe enough for any speeds I'll be able to manage on the initial 48 volts.

I currently have a 120mm rear tire, that I will replace with a 130mm tire, to get a little better balance. I ultimately plan to increase the rim width a bit and move up to either a 140 or 160 rear tire. The rear crossmember notch was designed to accommodate up to a 160, rounded, motorcycle profile, tire.

More to come...


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

I cut a couple 21.5" MDF mock-up wheel discs and, anxiously, bolted them up, jacked it up, lowered it, and watched the frame almost hit the shop floor - I forgot that the shock brackets were designed for 23" wheels!  With the aggressive mounting angle they were losing ride height progressively faster as they went down. I am going to reduce the angle of the shocks a bit, and shorten the mounts to suit the smaller tires, and it _should_ be golden. 

I love the 21.5" diameter - that's a keeper. 

This is, by far, my most ridiculous project to date! It's really hard to capture, with a camera, just how low and radical it is. Definitely like a soapbox car on steroids, with a giant motor strapped to its back!


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

The new shop floor looks good, very clean and tidy! 

How much ground clearance are you having at normal ride height and at full bump?


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Woodsmith said:


> The new shop floor looks good, very clean and tidy! ...


Thanks. It's transitioning from a development shop to a big display case. 







Woodsmith said:


> ...How much ground clearance are you having at normal ride height and at full bump?


The goal is 3" ground clearance at ride height, but the radius rods actually hang lower. I could have moved them up, but I don't want to. 

At full bump, there will only be an inch of clearance left (2" max bump travel).  That's not a big deal to me, as I am used to driving with 3" clearance; cars, trucks, and bikes - that's my preferred ride height.


I am going to have less than 3" of clearance initially. I am working on the shock mounts now, and they're going to hang lower for a while. I refuse to push the shocks up higher than the corners of the hood, so the only solution is shorter shocks, so the lower mounts can be raised for more clearance. I will eventually try to shorten the shocks I have, but I don't want to open that can of worms yet. The easy way to accomplish it is using shorter springs, if there is enough travel left (definitely possible, since I only want 2"). If that doesn't work, the rod has to be cut and re-drilled (pinned end) or tapped (threaded end). Either way, I want to keep 100% of my focus on simply making it roll, steer, and move, for now.

_That_, is working!  I have the lower mounts cut, tacked, installed, and the vehicle's weight on the front suspension!  I took a short break for the news, but in about 30 minutes I will break it down, weld-n-grind, and put it back together. 

Pics later...


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

PackRat now has three feet on the floor! 

With one _small_ issue: I completely forgot about the fact that the vehicle "teeters" on an imaginary axis with street rod style solid axle front suspensions!  My original idea for parallel leafs would have been much better suited, because with the single rear wheel there's nothing to keep the frame from swinging on that axis!!!  I'm not quite sure what I am going to do about it yet... 

















I'll have to see how much difference it makes having everything bolted and bushed. Right now, nothing is really secured and every joint or connection has a ton of slop and movement. It does, however, roll and steer now. I had it outside the studio doorway, in the aisle. I was going to wiggle it around and find a better place to take pics but, between sliding around on the MDF wheel discs and the fact that doing such draws curious people with too many questions and comments in a community workshop - I decided to roll it back inside, get my pics, and duck back into my office.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

toddshotrods said:


> PackRat now has three feet on the floor!
> 
> With one _small_ issue: I completely forgot about the fact that the vehicle "teeters" on an imaginary axis with street rod style solid axle front suspensions!  My original idea for parallel leafs would have been much better suited, because with the single rear wheel there's nothing to keep the frame from swinging on that axis!!!  I'm not quite sure what I am going to do about it yet...


This is why I spent a lot of time figuring a zero tilt front suspension in the early days of my trike.

For ease I am going to use a big anti roll bar, starting with the standard MGB one and then maybe going up to the oversize track racing one.

I'd like to revisit the zero tilt set up but I would have to redesign the axle cross-member for that. I might still do that.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Woodsmith said:


> This is why I spent a lot of time figuring a zero tilt front suspension in the early days of my trike.
> 
> For ease I am going to use a big anti roll bar, starting with the standard MGB one and then maybe going up to the oversize track racing one.
> 
> I'd like to revisit the zero tilt set up but I would have to redesign the axle cross-member for that. I might still do that.


With IFS, don't the springs at least attempt to counter the tilt, by needing to extend and compress to allow the frame to pivot? With a street rod style straight axle, as it tilts, the other side is doing exactly what is needed to take the burden off both springs!  It is completely floppy, as in NO resistance to tilting! 

Since PackRat's chassis is underslung, with the axle riding over the frame, I was thinking about using individual springs between the axle and the frame. If I don't physically attach them to the axle they wouldn't have an effect on bump travel as the axle would simply pull away from the spring(s). I could get a little tilt with the wheel(s) in bump, and the axle away from the "tilt spring"(s), but in my head it should feel natural (for a straight axle car) because the frame would only be able to tilt in the direction the bump would normally want to tilt the vehicle's frame and body. I think... 

The only reason I think I have a chance at developing something that feels decent and predictable is I will only have two inches of bump travel up front. There would, however be a penalty with rebound travel, below ride height. The "tilt spring" would prevent the wheel from dropping down to follow the road, possibly allowing a loss of traction at times. 

What else am I missing?


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

Do you have a panhard rod or similar to control the lateral movement of the axle relative to The frame?

Rig up temporary panhard rod, maybe clamping a steering column shaft, with UJs between the chassis and the axle so that the UJ's act like ball joints. Being you, you will just make a panhard rod! 
See what effect it has on the stability of the frame relative to the axle and then see if you can position it so that you still have the roll centres that you want.

The little rebound springs between the frame and the axle will control vertical movement at both ends of the axle. But depending on where the frame roll centre is relative to the axle you may find that, at the point where the chassis is over the axle, the free movement may include a lateral element as the frame pivots about the roll centre. The rebound springs won't control that.


On my IRS set up I have the conflict of wanting soft springs to allow the suspension to 'work' to absorb bumps, but not wanting soft springs that allow the cab to lean out during cornering upsetting the centre of gravity. 
A very stiff anti-roll bar would do but so would a linked suspension that only allows both front wheels to rise and fall together and not one up one down.


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## ken will (Dec 19, 2009)

The radius rods are suppose to keep the body from rolling from side to side.
If the connections are still loose that could be the culprit.

If the axle is twisting that can do it too. (Round axles are less likely to twist than I-beams).


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Woodsmith said:


> Do you have a panhard rod or similar to control the lateral movement of the axle relative to The frame?...


I don't have any lateral movement. I went with the extreme angle on the coil-overs to eliminate that, and eliminate the need for a panhard bar - that is working. It doesn't budge laterally, it teeters, like two kids on a board strapped to a tube, in a playground! 





ken will said:


> The radius rods are suppose to keep the body from rolling from side to side.
> If the connections are still loose that could be the culprit.
> 
> If the axle is twisting that can do it too. (Round axles are less likely to twist than I-beams).


That makes sense. I can see in my head how radius rods should at least resist body roll. I don't think there is enough weight to twist the axle.

Everything is very loose though. I just have bolts sticking through the parts, no spacers, no nuts. The rear radius rod rod ends aren't even threaded into real bungs; those are nuts that I turned the threads out of, so the rod ends could simply slide in and out!  They have no spacers, no nuts, and are sliding links at this point, so there's no way they would resist anything.

I'll just ignore the tilting for now, until I get around to ordering all the spacers, bungs, bolts, and nuts, I need to lock it all together. It stays pretty much where I put it, even when rolling it around, until I push on it and make it tilt, so it's not a problem, yet... 

Thanks guys!


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

I burned the last three days mounting the warp drive engines, er uh, I mean rear turn signals/_saddle bags_!  These are the Woodlite headlights I purchased, I think, in 2009. I have been crazy about Woodlites since the first time I ever saw a pic of them, but they never fit because my vehicles are always so smashed down. They're about as tall as PackRat's grille!  The guy who sells these really crappy castings (stamped "Mexico" inside) on eBay also sells a miniature "turn signal" version that I plan to purchase and turn into matching headlights. I made the six individual pieces (3 on each mount) from .250" plate and angle, and short pieces of tubing, then fit and welded them together, to form little cast style pedestals. There are two studs that mount each housing, the larger of which is also drilled to run the wiring through. I haven't drilled the frame and added a (tubular) passage yet; and I need to clip the bolts and weld them on the bottom (notice the aluminum spacers hanging down).

















We have VIPs coming Friday, and the Open House Sunday, so I wanted to present a better _big picture_ view of the little Rat. I was originally planning to tear it down and start on the big weld-up, so I can start really bolting stuff together, but I realized that most people wouldn't realize the difference. I can make a bigger impact by having as many pieces of the puzzle in place as possible, even if they're barely hanging on.

Sorry for the "enhanced" pics, I am too tired to keep snapping for good ones in this dimly lit studio. I will post better pics, and close-ups of the mounts when I get a chance.


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

Dam!
I like those woodlite things

I wonder if I could put two on the Device...


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Duncan said:


> Dam!
> I like those woodlite things
> 
> I wonder if I could put two on the Device...


Edit: Forgot to say, thanks! 

Check him out. He has even more stuff now. The caveat is his parts are _*ROUGH!*_ He states it in the ads, but he doesn't provide pics of the raw castings to show just _how much_ work it would take to look like the pics in the ads. Cool stuff though.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Even though I decided not to shoot for the Goodguys show, I still used last weekend as my target to get the Rat off the table, and transition from the major rough-in to making it functional. Now that that is all behind me (whew!) and I finally have enough of a rough-in sitting on the studio floor.......

I love this little thing!  It is soooo rewarding to finally get to follow my nose, and just create; for the pure enjoyment/exhilaration of it!

Thanks also to you guys for nudging me towards electric. It just wouldn't be the same as a hybrid.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

A couple shots of last week's progress. I'm not quite sure when work will resume - I am mentally exhausted!  I, more-or-less, made my adjusted goal of having the Rat on the floor in three months; the original goal was to have it running (as a hybrid). Now I need to count up the cost of having it running and taking people for rides on it for the Mini Maker Faire, on October 13th. I need to figure out how that plays out in my revised career plans for the future..

A little better view of the rear turn signal mounts. I'm thinking about putting a tool kit, a can of Fix-a-Flat, and a couple amplified speakers in the housings with the tail lights. The holes for the wiring are pretty small though, so I have to see how many conductors I can pass through. I don't want any external wiring, so whatever fits...











Also, something I forgot to take a pic of in the mad rush to hit the floor. I never really liked that saddle mount upper clamp piece, and it was backwards on PackRat. I decided to cut it up, rearrange it, and weld it back together as something more _artsy_.  I obviously still need to grind the welds down, and fabricate the pivot and clamping points. I am thinking about an exaggerated "T-bolt" for the clamping point; starting with a .750" steel bolt...


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

I decided to take this week (probably really two or three of them) off, completely, from shop work. {{{cue violin}}} After selling my shop to get out of fabrication, and inching my way further back into it over the past two years - I need to catch my breath and think. It feels kind of like passing that same tree three times, while trying to get out of the forest. 

Seeing the Rat on the floor I really like it, but, I am also really struggling to incorporate it into my future plans. I can force it, make it fit, just shove it in there, somewhere; but the truth is it's kind of this cool extra _thing_ I don't need, but have, and am trying to figure out what to do with. 

Edit: I didn't finish my thought...

The current plan is to button the chassis up, fabricate the jackshaft, and put 12 volts to the motor to see what it's like in motion, then decide where to go with it/what to do with it from there. That's similar to how I developed Scrape, testing and riding first with a 12v battery and a starter button; and will only cost a couple hundred bucks...


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Big news guys: The little Rat has a new owner. I suggested that he register here, say hello, and take over this thread, so hopefully you'll get to meet him soon. He's a member of the Columbus Idea Foundry. I will still be in the mix, so to speak, for quite a while, as I have to button up the chassis for him and will be helping him develop it; with advice and ideas if nothing else.

He actually has great vision for the trike, so the journey continues as planned - just a new captain at the helm of the mission.

More to come...


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## spyramid (Aug 23, 2013)

Hi All,

I'm the PackRat's new caretaker and am really looking forward to working on it. Todd has been great and pointed me in the right direction (er, multiple right directions). That said, I'm also in over my head and need to learn a lot and will probably ask a lot of dumb questions here and elsewhere. 

This opportunity came up unexpectedly - I was giving some friends from Hollywood (FL, not CA) a tour of the Columbus Idea Foundry and one of them was fascinated by the PackRat. She's an artist with experience building parade floats and other event sets/installations and the PackRat would be a great platform for her to build on and drive around town. I tried to shake it off - time, money, and skills are all issues - but it wouldn't budge. And when Todd told me more about his plans and vision, it cemented. Getting the PackRat rolling, street legal, and ready for Florida is my job. Once we get there I'll hand it over for further customization, embellishment, and dazzling the streets of South Florida.

Progress will be slow. So far I have only skimmed this thread and assembled a list of areas for research. But Todd gave me a great welcome and told me about the enthusiasm here for the project and I wanted to let you know a little about its current state and my (possibly naive) plans for the future.

Apologies for the long post and if I've put it in the wrong place or made some other kind of gaffe, please let me know.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

spyramid said:


> Hi All,
> 
> I'm the PackRat's new caretaker and am really looking forward to working on it...


Awesome!  So glad you decided to join the forum and continue the little Rat's journey here!

Please give him a big welcome guys, and help me help him fulfill his vision... 

Welcome aboard spyramid!


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

spyramid said:


> Hi All,
> 
> I'm the PackRat's new caretaker and am really looking forward to working on it.


Welcome to the forum, spyramid, I'm sure you will fit in fine.

It is fairly relaxed here, mostly, and there is a lot of advice and information on the boards as well as many knowledgeable people who would be very happy to help.

I like PackRat and I am looking forward to seeing how it develops.


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