# Soliton 1 question



## TEV (Nov 25, 2011)

dougingraham said:


> I have a Soliton 1 in my car. I want to configure it so it looks as much like a Jr as possible. If I set the motor and battery current limits to 600A is this all I need to do or are there other settings I should change? I want to see if I would have been happy with a Junior. Switching to a Junior would let me put in 4 more batteries by volume. I dont think I am going to do this on this car but for the next car it is something I want to keep in mind.


Just a suggestion, I think you would get a quickly an authorized answer here :

http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forum...s-soliton1-customer-support-thread-39252.html


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## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

dougingraham said:


> I have a Soliton 1 in my car. I want to configure it so it looks as much like a Jr as possible. If I set the motor and battery current limits to 600A is this all I need to do or are there other settings I should change?...


A Soliton1 set to 600A max on both motor and battery sides is just loafing along, especially with liquid cooling, whereas a Jr is maxed out at those settings and, indeed, can't hold them indefinitely (more like 450-500A, depending on temp, coolant flow, etc.).

So not an entirely fair/accurate comparison, but pretty close.


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## Ziggythewiz (May 16, 2010)

Tesseract said:


> a Jr is maxed out at those settings and, indeed, can't hold them indefinitely


I can see where a smaller controller could be a problem in a heavy vehicle, but are peak vs continuous ratings that relevant in real world use? 

Outside the race track or canyon hopping is anyone using 500A more than 10 seconds at a time?


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## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

Ziggythewiz said:


> I can see where a smaller controller could be a problem in a heavy vehicle, but are peak vs continuous ratings that relevant in real world use? ...


The real benefit to having a high continuous current rating is in stop-and-go driving, when you need to pass on the highway, etc. It's not so much that you are using high current all the time, it's more that high current is available anytime you want it.


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## dougingraham (Jul 26, 2011)

Tesseract said:


> A Soliton1 set to 600A max on both motor and battery sides is just loafing along, especially with liquid cooling, whereas a Jr is maxed out at those settings and, indeed, can't hold them indefinitely (more like 450-500A, depending on temp, coolant flow, etc.).
> 
> So not an entirely fair/accurate comparison, but pretty close.


Thanks for the response. I just want to set it that way and drive it for a week or so to see how much I would miss the 1000A bursts or if I would miss it at all. I could really have used that extra space because the jr is not nearly so long.


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## onegreenev (May 18, 2012)

So your gonna take out the V8 and install a V4? Ouch! I'd vote for having the V8 but drive like a 4 but have on tap 8 for when I needed or wanted.


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## kennybobby (Aug 10, 2012)

*Needs more range, it's south dakota after all...*



onegreenev said:


> So your gonna take out the V8 and install a V4? Ouch! I'd vote for having the V8 but drive like a 4 but have on tap 8 for when I needed or wanted.


Not more power--The smaller controller allows adding 4 more batteries to extend range. Even driving a V8 like a I4 won't help range as much as adding fuel. V4 motorsickles don't get great fuel mileage compared to inlines...


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## Yukon_Shane (Jul 15, 2010)

onegreenev said:


> So your gonna take out the V8 and install a V4? Ouch! I'd vote for having the V8 but drive like a 4 but have on tap 8 for when I needed or wanted.


The soliton Jr. can put out somewhere in the range of 150 kW or 200 hp...not exactly a weeney little v4.

I've got a Jr. in my conversion that only takes advantage of about half the power that this controller is capable of (160 V pack) and it seems to have plent of power to me. 

My opinion: if it's a cummuter car that isn't too heavy, then the solition Jr. is plenty. If, on the other hand, you want to burn tires you should upgrade the the soliton 1.


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## dougingraham (Jul 26, 2011)

onegreenev said:


> So your gonna take out the V8 and install a V4? Ouch! I'd vote for having the V8 but drive like a 4 but have on tap 8 for when I needed or wanted.


I am not going to take out the Soliton 1. I am still second guessing myself and wondering if I really would have been happy with a Junior. If I play with it I can make better informed recommendations to others.


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## onegreenev (May 18, 2012)

I know your not but because you know what the big one will do you may not be satisfied with the smaller one. On the other hand had you never had a big one the smaller one may be just fine but with only 500 amps on tap maybe not unless you have high voltages to go along with it. If you only have like 144 volts then I'd say you'd want the higher amperage available. If you are at 250 volts then the 500 amps would be plenty.


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## PhantomPholly (Aug 20, 2008)

It seems to me that if you are not using as many batteries today as a Solitron Jr. would accommodate, then you might actually see more performance out of a Jr. by adding the extra batteries because current sag limits the Watts you can extract from your current battery pack. Perhaps I'm missing something, though....


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## trukr (Mar 17, 2013)

dougingraham said:


> I am not going to take out the Soliton 1. I am still second guessing myself and wondering if I really would have been happy with a Junior. If I play with it I can make better informed recommendations to others.


How did this experiment go?
I'll be around 1500lbs with a 9 mated to a 5spd with a 144v 120ah pack.
Would the volts be high enough for decent acceleration and on ramp performance?


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## dougingraham (Jul 26, 2011)

trukr said:


> How did this experiment go?
> I'll be around 1500lbs with a 9 mated to a 5spd with a 144v 120ah pack.
> Would the volts be high enough for decent acceleration and on ramp performance?


It is all about expectations isn't it? At 1500 lbs I believe you would be happy with a Soliton 1 and using just 2 of your gears. With a jr you would probably use 3.

I am pretty sure I would have been happy with a jr. But I am not unhappy that I got the larger controller. I only have 100AH cells so I turned it down to 800 battery amps but still have the motor amps set to 1000. I only ever hit that when I am demoing the car. 0-25 in less than a second is pretty exciting. And my car weighs about 2200 lbs. With the limits set to 600 amps it still has more torque than the car originally had. The torque curve is different though so you shift quite a lot sooner in the EV.

Hope that helps.


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## trukr (Mar 17, 2013)

dougingraham said:


> It is all about expectations isn't it? At 1500 lbs I believe you would be happy with a Soliton 1 and using just 2 of your gears. With a jr you would probably use 3.
> 
> I am pretty sure I would have been happy with a jr. But I am not unhappy that I got the larger controller. I only have 100AH cells so I turned it down to 800 battery amps but still have the motor amps set to 1000. I only ever hit that when I am demoing the car. 0-25 in less than a second is pretty exciting. And my car weighs about 2200 lbs. With the limits set to 600 amps it still has more torque than the car originally had. The torque curve is different though so you shift quite a lot sooner in the EV.
> 
> Hope that helps.


It does, thanks.

I think a jr would be fine then. But 1000 amps would be nice to cover the added weight of another string or two in the future. Plus I think you guys are right about having some extra for demo purposes. It would be worth the extra money right there if it helped convert another driver.


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## onegreenev (May 18, 2012)

Regardless of the voltage of your pack or AH of your pack I have always felt that having more than 400 amps is key. The SolitonJr to me is great if you have a pack that utilizes the full voltage that it is able to do but if you have a lower voltage that 500 amps can become pretty weenie if you have a heavy vehicle. It will work but just not so quick. The Soliton1 is good because it utilizes high voltage and amperage and you can like my controller (Synkromotive) adjust the battery and motor amps separately which is excellent. Both are able to handle up to 192 volts and beyond for the Soliton1 and both are able to handle 900 amps and beyond a tad with the Soliton1. 

I'd say be sure to have something that can do better than 500 amps even in a small vehicle and even if you have 350 volts. You may never use that kind of power but it is always nice to know you have it on tap when you do need it. 

Pete


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## trukr (Mar 17, 2013)

onegreenev said:


> I'd say be sure to have something that can do better than 500 amps even in a small vehicle and even if you have 350 volts. You may never use that kind of power but it is always nice to know you have it on tap when you do need it.
> 
> Pete



What would the need be to go with that high a volt for the street? And how would that affect real world driving?

As I understand it, it's the amps that help with range, and the amp rating of the battery that is affected by it's discharge capacity rating. So what is the real benifit to upping the volts as oppose to amps?

For example: 100 grey CALB 100ah cells

320v 100ah or 160v 200ah

96kW at 3C and 320kW at 10c for the 100s 1p pack

96kW at 3C and 160kW at 5C limited by the controller for the 50s 2p pack

What would be the real world differences with these two packs? Range, acceleration, cycle life etc. What would I be giving up to have 428hp for 30 seconds? I can't imagine being able to use that away from a christmas tree. Not with torque from zero.

I'm just trying to understand the difference in configuring a pack. Is 300 plus volts necessary to get 0-60 under 6 seconds?

What would be nice is to be able to switch the pack from 50s 2p to 100s 1p on the fly. Kind of like a full throttle nitrous switch. Or even a boost button like KITT had


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## onegreenev (May 18, 2012)

With 160 volts and a 200ah pack you should be good to go since the calbs can dish out gobbs of amps. The issue with volts is rpm for your motor. It allows good amp pulls during the acceleration up to the speed limits of the motor. With like 96 volt I'd be limited to a short duration acceleration before dropping off power then I'd have to shift. With high voltage and amperage abilities of the pack and the controller allow kick ass acceleration for much longer durations before you have to shift. In some cases you don't have to shift to sustain your speed as long as your not over motors rpm range. 

I want good voltage for long hard pulls up to speed. 

I hope I said that good enough to understand.


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## trukr (Mar 17, 2013)

onegreenev said:


> I hope I said that good enough to understand.


I may have to re-read it a few times, but I'll get there 

I just need a bigger fan to get rid of all this fog.


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## dougingraham (Jul 26, 2011)

Torque is proportional the the current. You increase the current capability and you will increase the torque up to the point where something breaks. The torque band is essentially flat up to a certain RPM at which point it tapers off until output equals load. This RPM point is controlled by the voltage that can be applied to the motor. The higher the voltage applied the higher this point will be. Motors like the WarP9 with the Helwig brushes are purported to be able to handle 192 volts. To obtain the widest usable RPM band you want to be able to provide 192 volts to the motor at full current. This means you would want to take into account the battery sag under full current load. Since batteries sag under load you might want to increase the voltage by 30 or so percent over that 192 volts. The maximum voltage would be the voltage max of the controller. In the case of the Soliton 1 and Jr this is 340 volts. You might be concerned that since 340 volts is higher than 192 volts this wont work but it is not a problem because the only thing the controller can actually do is lower the voltage. Everything else they do is done by lowering the voltage.

I choose my 100 AH cells because I expected to be able to do 1000 amps briefly with them. Smaller capacity cells would not be able to do this without undue stress. I then chose the number of cells such that the weight of the car would be about the same as when the ICE was in it. I have since dropped that count by 4 cells because I couldn't find room in the two battery boxes. If I was going for range I would still have chosen 100AH cells but I would have put in 98 of them in series and then configured the controller to output no more than 192 volts. To get the best torque band out of my motor I would probably want to use about 85 cells in series. This is enough voltage that even with sag you never would see the voltage dip below 192 volts.

Here I am hijacking my own thread.


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## onegreenev (May 18, 2012)

Good job there Doug. Should clear things up pretty well. I too am going to be setting my controller to what my motor can handle but my pack voltage will be higher in the 192 volt range. I will be setting current limits to the pack and motor as well and will be testing different configurations for motor voltage to see what setup is ideal for the motor I am using. I too have 100ah cells. Old Hi-Power and newer Calb SE cells.

Pete


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## trukr (Mar 17, 2013)

dougingraham said:


> Here I am hijacking my own thread.


Sorry about the topic drift there. It's just that when it's all still new, every answer just leads to a new question.

Between you and Pete, I now have a clearer picture about voltage and pack size. As usual this opens up new questions that I'm itching to ask, but I will refrain . At least in this thread.


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## dtbaker (Jan 5, 2008)

trukr said:


> How did this experiment go?
> I'll be around 1500lbs with a 9 mated to a 5spd with a 144v 120ah pack.
> Would the volts be high enough for decent acceleration and on ramp performance?


yes, acceleration will be stunning.

for rough idea of power available, just use nominal voltage and ignore sag. 144v x 600amps = 86kW
144v x 1000amps = 144kW
.... but 86kW thru a 1500# vehicle will be pretty darn fun.

putting 150kW (156v x 1000amps) thru my Miata is really fun, and the vehicle weight is much higher, closer to 2600#


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