# Direct Drive - any advice?



## slloyd (Jun 7, 2017)

hi all, i'm in early planning stage (finally!) for an EV build. i'm trying to find good info on how to do the mechanics for a direct drive. any build diaries? more detail and dumbing down the better. 

i like direct drive because its simple. i have access to a machine shop (6' long lathe, bridgeport mill, forge, etc.) so will make whatever parts i need. i'd prefer to make a part using shop or send 3D CAD drawing to a fab shop if need be rather than pull from a donor car.

i am planning a KIT car build, ~1500lbs, on relatively flat ground. not too interested in highway driving so it if can meet that speed limit great, if not, no big deal. mostly low mileage city driving, on sundays. rewinding my own motor to get voltage/current desired as per IvansGarage methods. have my own 3-phase AC controller high performance drive.

ps. mizlplix, i beleive in your powerglide discussion.. you convinced me! but i need to keep this simple and cheap. so i was thinking direct drive would be better.. unless for sure i am going in wrong direction, then please let me know!


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

Hi
Direct drive as in the wheel rpm is the same as the motor rpm is silly
The reason is that (roughly) torque is proportional to weight so you need a very heavy motor roar a lot of torque

If you are thinking about direct drive to the diff - which gives about a 4:1 speed reduction then that is sensible

I'm using a Subaru diff with 4.1:1 - and it works very well

http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forum...dubious-device-44370p15.html?highlight=duncan


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

Along the same lines as Duncan's comments...
What do you mean by "direct drive"? Essentially no one connects the motor directly to a wheel. The closest would be driving a wheel with no speed reduction (no gears, no chain), and it would be very strange to do that with a differential so it would likely be one-motor-per-wheel. A motor for each wheel is fine, but running motors at wheel speed makes no sense.

What most people in the DIY EV discussions seem to mean by "direct drive" is either *single-ratio* (instead of a multi-speed transmission), or without using the original transmission in a conversion (which amount to the same thing in most cases).

Most commercially produced EVs are single-speed... but they also use permanent magnet AC motors, which have the broadest power band of any motor type. Tesla uses induction motors with their single-speed system, but even induction motors have a much better speed range than brushed DC motors (and Tesla's motors are presumably designed with acceptable high speed operation in mind). I suggest having a hard look at how much power you need at what road speed, and what that means for required gearing. Keep in mind that those commercially-produced EV motors are good to much higher rotational speeds than most people are willing or able to run their DIY motors.


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

Duncan said:


> If you are thinking about direct drive to the diff - which gives about a 4:1 speed reduction then that is sensible
> 
> I'm using a Subaru diff with 4.1:1 - and it works very well


It can, and is brilliantly straightforward, although I suspect that for most applications more reduction would be desirable. Fortunately, higher reduction is available for some final drive units.

It would be nice to eliminate the heavy and bulky transmission from most of the conversion projects that I've seen in this forum. In the "conventional" (front longitudinal engine / rear wheel drive) layouts, the motor usually takes much of the engine compartment, leaving not enough room for battery packs, and battery mass carried too far forward. It would be nice to tuck the engine in the transmission space; unfortunately, the motor which works well with only the final drive reduction may not fit there well. Duncan's big motor (11 inches in diameter and weighing 102 kg) is in the transmission location, allowing the battery pack to fit properly in the usual engine space from the front axle line back, but this is in a custom frame. It would be even nicer to mount the motor directly to the input of the final drive, but that has even greater fit problems for most vehicles.

One issue I have with this motor-to-shaft-to-final-drive idea: a typical final drive has a hypoid ring-and-pinion gearset. This design works fine, but wastes a few percent of the power transmitted due to friction, compared to a non-hypoid bevel gear set. That's acceptable in most vehicles, but a few percent mechanical loss means a few percent less power available to the wheels, and a few percent less range... both issues for most EVs. As far as I know, there is no commercially produced EV with a hypoid final drive.


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## slloyd (Jun 7, 2017)

wow, thanks for the responses. yes i mean direct drive to differential. no transmission. i'm not concerned for a couple of percentage loss in efficiency due to gear type as i'm not trying to optimize the design i'm trying to simplify it while still getting reasonable to good results. 

thanks for the direct drive link duncan, and confidence that this could work! Electric lotus 7 was exactly what i had in mind too!! i'm going to read your build log in high detail now


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## dcb (Dec 5, 2009)

brian_ said:


> but they also use permanent magnet AC motors, which have the broadest power band of any motor type. Tesla uses induction motors


what?!? As soon as the pm makes peak power you have to start throwing even more power at it to maintain that power output (because you have to cancel the PM field), induction wins "broadest powerband" by a wide margin..


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

dcb said:


> what?!? As soon as the pm makes peak power you have to start throwing even more power at it to maintain that power (because you have to cancel the PM field), induction wins "broadest powerband" by a wide margin..


In addition to obviously being conceptual sketches rather than real data, neither of those traces look anything like the AC PM characteristics that I have seen, published by manufacturers of both motors and vehicles. More typically, what I am seeing is:

Synchronous three=phase *AC PM:* roughly constant torque from stall to a point, then roughly constant power from that point up to the maximum operating speed - these are the characteristics shown in the MotoredBikes.com post for an _induction_ motor
Three-phase AC *induction*: roughly constant torque from stall to a point, then torque dropping rapidly enough that power drops steadily from that point up to the maximum operating speed

That graphic apparently came from a post in the _AC Induction Motor Ebike Project_ thread in MotoredBikes.com. I had not heard of motor-assisted bicycles using three-phase AC motors with permanent magnet rotors, so although I'll admit to not having read dozens of posts of graphs posted without sources and not based on measured data, my guess is that the comparison is to inexpensive brushless PM DC motors... not to motors as used in common car-sized EVs. One hint is that the "PM" motor output drops to zero at a speed (2988 rpm) which is far too low for any production EV - that speed would be 28 mph in a Leaf, while a real Leaf runs its AC PM motor up to about 10,000 rpm (and so over 90 mph), producing near its peak (80 kW) power from below 3000 rpm to over 9000 rpm, and hits peak efficiency around 6000 rpm at full load.

The Leaf's AC PM motor:








(This shows only torque, but mechanical power is just the product of torque and speed: 280 N-m @ 2700 rpm, 75 N-m @ 9900 rpm, and all the points between are all 80 kW)

Of course, a new motor for a Leaf (or Volt, or Bolt, or whatever) probably costs as much as most people are willing to put into an entire DIY EV conversion.


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## slloyd (Jun 7, 2017)

i'll be using 3-phase induction motor. the reason is becausee every major city has motor rewind shop, at least one, and they have oodles of motors in their back room on the shelf that are ready for scrap which they willing to give you for next to nothing. then you rewind it for the voltage/current level you want, and poof, basically new motor for good price!


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## dcb (Dec 5, 2009)

brian_ said:


> The Leaf's AC PM motor:


The leaf isn't entirely a PM motor, it is part switched reluctance. Maybe if you read more and typed less?


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## slloyd (Jun 7, 2017)

well, i ran a search for thread title "direct drive" and read every one. i did not see a detailed build showing how this is all done mechanically. i'm picturing motor and yolk as one unit (like this bad boy http://www.evsource.com/tls_transwarp9.php). then to drive shaft. other end of drive shaft connects direct to rear differential with a ratio hopefully close enough around 4:1 or higher. so basically you scour the scrap yard for a few different cars that you know have rear wheel drive with a ratio you want and you grab that rear axle with its differential and grab also the drive shaft. might be you have to change length of drive shaft but that can be done. i'm assuming the rear axle will magically fit perfect in the lotus 7...

*Duncan*, any chance you have more detailed build diary somewhere with a bazzilon pictures?


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

dcb said:


> The leaf isn't entirely a PM motor, it is part switched reluctance. Maybe if you read more and typed less?


Sure - point me to a document (preferably from Nissan) describing this; I'll happily read it. 

Nissan says it is a


> three-phase AC synchronous motor, composed of a magnet rotor and coil stator.


There's more detail in that page, clearly describing a PM rotor, and no mention of switched reluctance, although other authors refer to this as a "hybrid" design. A presentation from the U.S. DOE's Oak Ridge National Laboratory calls it a


> Interior Permanent Magnet (IPM) with RE magnets


... (with "RE" meaning "rare earth"), but maybe some of the amateurs here know better. The Leaf motor is so clearly an IPM (interior permanent magnet) motor, and is so well known and studied, that it seems to have become a baseline for anyone developing anything other than a IPM motor.

In any case, it is consistently described by Nissan as a synchronous motor, and so it certainly _not_ an induction motor... despite having the characteristics that the bike motor discussion poster attributed to induction motors. It also certainly does primarily depend on permanent magnets in the rotor, and has characteristics nothing like what the bike motor discussion poster attributed to PM motors.

It looks like the "hybrid" characteristic of the Leaf motor (and others) would be that it has to some extent a synchronous reluctance (not switched reluctance) rotor. dcb, maybe attack less and read more, to get the term right?  Try page 13 of that presentation from Oak Ridge for a nice set of pictures to start.

The Oak Ridge document also provides a nice illustration of ideal induction motor characteristics, which match my description... and presents it much better (page 21 of their presentation). *slloyd*, this is a from-first-principles description of the ideal characteristics of your induction motor, if the controller is done right.


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## dcb (Dec 5, 2009)

brian_ said:


> but they also use permanent magnet AC motors, which have the broadest power band of any motor type. Tesla uses induction motors bla.bla.bla.bla...


Not enough signal in that noise since you made this statement, have you retracted this statement or not?


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

slloyd said:


> i'm picturing motor and yolk as one unit (like this bad boy http://www.evsource.com/tls_transwarp9.php). then to drive shaft. other end of drive shaft connects direct to rear differential with a ratio hopefully close enough around 4:1 or higher.


Sounds right to me.  The "Trans" versions of the WarP line do look convenient, for those wanting a brushed DC motor.



slloyd said:


> ... you grab that rear axle with its differential and grab also the drive shaft. might be you have to change length of drive shaft but that can be done.


The transmission end of the shaft which goes with your chosen final drive (differential) probably won't match what you can readily mount on the motor, but that shaft is the easy part - driveline shops routinely build shafts which whatever you need on each end to mix and match transmissions (or a motor in your case) with final drives, in whatever length you need. Duncan's is really short, because this style of car is close-coupled, and because the Subaru final drive unit has a long pinion shaft.



slloyd said:


> ...so basically you scour the scrap yard for a few different cars that you know have rear wheel drive with a ratio you want and you grab that rear axle with its differential...
> i'm assuming the rear axle will magically fit perfect in the lotus 7...


I was wondering what the target car design might be. It sounds like you're talking about a traditional live beam axle (that is, not independent). As long as you're willing to cut off stock brackets and weld on new ones, and the hub face width is appropriate, live beam axles are highly interchangeable.

The alternative is to go independent, preferably using final drive unit (diff) and suspension from the same vehicle, so the halfshafts work without modification. One thing which makes this more attractive all the time is that small cars with live beam axles are long gone from the market, so in most cases you're looking at components salvaged from cars made well into the previous century. Maybe you can use a compact truck axle, such as an 8.8 from a Ford Ranger, some axle from a first-generation Chev Colorado (or even S-10 if you can still find one), or something from a first-generation Toyota Tacoma; it depends on your size choices - an original Lotus 7 was narrow compared to most recent cars inspired by it.


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

dcb said:


> Not enough signal in that noise since you made this statement, have you retracted this statement or not?


No.
(but the forum requires that posts have at least 10 characters)


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## jacksdad (Apr 13, 2015)

Hi 

i dont know if you have seen my build on here but i have a similar system with a similar weight kit car and I am using a direct drive using a two stage chain drive with jack shaft with easily changable sprokets to allow me a wide range of fixed ratio's 

builds here:

http://mevowners.proboards.com/thread/2788/jack-dads-build-rocket

http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showthread.php/electric-mev-rocket-kit-car-156145.html

We used cad to make the unit that holds the motor and sprocket shafts and differential and drive shaft in a single unit that could fit in any car, although not sure about lotus/caterham 7 but could shift position of motor/jack/drive shaft around and change angles, and happy to share these if you wish


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## Karter2 (Nov 17, 2011)

I suspect there are still lots of rigid axle options available for small Clubman type cars. The Suziki Jimmy springs to mind as a current production, narrow axle, candidate ?....3.9:1. - 4.3:1 ratios available


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## dain254 (Oct 8, 2015)

On my current build project - using a Mazda Miata complete rear end including the differential, and am going to mate a 10" brushed motor directly to the differential via a custom flange (likely a plate with holes welded to a shaft collar, as simple as can be!) This setup eliminated a driveshaft as well as a transmission. Ratio on the Miata is about 4:1, I don't remember the exact figure. The 100V battery pack I plan on using will get the vehicle to 70mph, in a hurry! No need to go any faster IMO.


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

Hi Dain254
Be careful how you mount it
The diff is mounted in rubber and it will move as you drive - remember it sees wheel torque as well as motor torque
You don't want to put those sort of loads into your coupling

Also my 130v would only get my 11 inch motor up to 59mph (4.1:1 Diff)

The Back EMF progressively limited the current
At zero I had 1000 Amps - superb
But at 59 mph I only had 200 Amps - and with my poor aerodynamics that was as fast as it would go

I'm now using 1200 Amps and 340v - and it GOES! - at the end of the 1/8th mile I'm doing about 140Kph and still accelerating like a demon when I lift off


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

Duncan said:


> Hi Dain254
> Be careful how you mount it
> The diff is mounted in rubber and it will move as you drive - remember it sees wheel torque as well as motor torque
> You don't want to put those sort of loads into your coupling


For slloyd:

A shaft between transmission and final drive normally has joints (universal or constant velocity) at each end, and some provision for plunge (change in length) either as a feature of a CV joint (such as tripod type) or as a telescoping two-part shaft, or by allowing one end to float axially on the splines of the shaft (typically the transmission output shaft). When adapting a final drive to an unrelated motor output shaft, it's important to ensure that these features are retained.

By having a shaft with these features, you don't need to worry about the issues which Duncan has identified in dain254's configuration.

For dain254:


dain254 said:


> On my current build project - using a Mazda Miata complete rear end including the differential, and am going to mate a 10" brushed motor directly to the differential via a custom flange (likely a plate with holes welded to a shaft collar, as simple as can be!) This setup eliminated a driveshaft as well as a transmission.


To me, directly coupling a motor and final drive means connecting the housings as if you were connecting an engine output face to a transmission bellhousing; the housing connection takes all of the reaction forces and torques and holds the shafts aligned so that the shaft coupling takes nothing but drive torque. When the final drive and transmission are spaced significantly far apart, this is called a torque tube, but the function is the same regardless of length.

In a stock Miata/MX-5 (of any generation) the final drive unit is connected to the transmission by the Power Plant Frame, which is a truss that takes the reaction to torque applied to the shafts to the wheels. That means that any other use of the Miata final drive needs to add a front mount, which can be a frame to the transmission or (in this case) motor.

It's not obvious to me how one would make a proper torque tube connection to the front of a Mazda Miata/MX-5 final drive housing. The points where the power plant frame attach only handle bending in a vertical plane - not bending in the horizontal plane, or torque.


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## dain254 (Oct 8, 2015)

So... I guess since there are a couple different posts on opinion of how I mount the motor I suppose I should clarify. My post was simply to discuss ratios as opposed to motor mounting specifics. 

Both Duncan and brian_ have the story if you put together their posts. Absolutely a person needs to be aware of the forces acting on the soft mounted diff unit as well as the translation that would come from it - not just in an axial motion sense relative to the motor but radially about the wheel axles as well. I will be coupling the motor rigidly to use the weight of the motor along with a soft mount on the other end of the motor. The soft mount (acting sort of like a trans brace) will accommodate any axial shift that might occur with the rubber bushings as well as any radial movement. Were I mounting the motor rigidly on one or both ends this MAY work but would likely overwork the bearings on the input to the diff as well as motor bearings. 

One might go on to argue that having such an overhung load of ~100lbs or so (half the motor weight) could over work the bearings on either the motor OR the differential... but given that these motors are designed to use pulleys/belts or have gears for direct drive which both would generate high radial loads... I see no concern. 

Shock loading of the system is another point of discussion, but I would throw out after considering the full system, in the regular miata the shock loading would be generated by dumping the clutch in a low gear... whereas the only way to generate a shock load to the electric powered system is to mash the brake pedal sending the shock load back through the other direction. No concern there either.


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## slloyd (Jun 7, 2017)

brian_ said:


> *slloyd*, this is a from-first-principles description of the ideal characteristics of your induction motor, if the controller is done right.


no worries, i'm very familiar with motor controller design and know exactly how to do it right. my challenge is the mechanical side of the EV, total n00b in this regard ..


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## slloyd (Jun 7, 2017)

> To me, directly coupling a motor and final drive means connecting the housings as if you were connecting an engine output face to a transmission bellhousing; the housing connection takes all of the reaction forces and torques and holds the shafts aligned so that the shaft coupling takes nothing but drive torque. When the final drive and transmission are spaced significantly far apart, this is called a torque tube, but the function is the same regardless of length.
> 
> In a stock Miata/MX-5 (of any generation) the final drive unit is connected to the transmission by the Power Plant Frame, which is a truss that takes the reaction to torque applied to the shafts to the wheels. That means that any other use of the Miata final drive needs to add a front mount, which can be a frame to the transmission or (in this case) motor.
> 
> It's not obvious to me how one would make a proper torque tube connection to the front of a Mazda Miata/MX-5 final drive housing. The points where the power plant frame attach only handle bending in a vertical plane - not bending in the horizontal plane, or torque.


I understood none of that ... 
i'll go over every word and figure this out and also keep reading about lotus7 specific drive trains and see if i can put together a plan here for critique.

appreciate all the help!


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

slloyd said:


> I understood none of that ...


Fortunately, none of that part matters as long as you keep a conventional shaft in your car, instead of bolting the motor directly to the diff housing like dain254 has been planning.


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

Karter2 said:


> I suspect there are still lots of rigid axle options available for small Clubman type cars. The Suziki Jimmy springs to mind as a current production, narrow axle, candidate ?....3.9:1. - 4.3:1 ratios available


Good point: in some places this design is still current. The Suzuki Jimny (assuming that was what was meant) only came to North America in its second generation (as the SJ or Samurai), ending almost two decades ago. After that there was the Sidekick/Tracker; some of those are as little as 12 years old, and are still reasonably narrow, so they're a possibility.


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

dain254 said:


> Absolutely a person needs to be aware of the forces acting on the soft mounted diff unit as well as the translation that would come from it - not just in an axial motion sense relative to the motor but radially about the wheel axles as well. I will be coupling the motor rigidly to use the weight of the motor along with a soft mount on the other end of the motor. The soft mount (acting sort of like a trans brace) will accommodate any axial shift that might occur with the rubber bushings as well as any radial movement.


Sounds good! 
I'll watch for a build thread for the details as it comes together.

I assume that you have seen the direct-to-final-drive _Latvian mazda RX-8 project_; post #13 shows a fabricated steel motor-to-final-drive torque tube/box. It's an RX-8 rather than a Miata, but the final drive unit design is the same, the power plant frame mounting points would likely be the same, and even the suspension is the same if you are converting an NC or ND.


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## slloyd (Jun 7, 2017)

> Fortunately, none of that part matters as long as you keep a conventional shaft in your car, instead of bolting the motor directly to the diff housing like dain254 has been planning.


my first build will be a single motor direct drive to a differential RWD making use of a drive shaft because i believe this is the cheapest way to make a reasonable light weight sunday driving EV.


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## dain254 (Oct 8, 2015)

slloyd said:


> my first build will be a single motor direct drive to a differential RWD making use of a drive shaft because i believe this is the cheapest way to make a reasonable light weight sunday driving EV.



Yep, that is also a sound strategy - I'm only messing around with a somewhat experimental method of mounting for motor position and weight reduction! 

brian_ I actually hadn't seen the RX7 build but that rear diff unit does look very similar!


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

dain254 said:


> ...brian_ I actually hadn't seen the RX7 build but that rear diff unit does look very similar!


It's actually an RX-8 (which shares chassis design with the third and fourth generation MX-5 - NC & ND) but the final drives of all MX-5, RX-7 with IRS (so FC & FD), and RX-8 all seem to be related. All except perhaps the FC use the Power Plant Frame.


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## toddwcarpenter (Dec 21, 2016)

brian_ said:


> It's actually an RX-8 (which shares chassis design with the third and fourth generation MX-5 - NC & ND) but the final drives of all MX-5, RX-7 with IRS (so FC & FD), and RX-8 all seem to be related. All except perhaps the FC use the Power Plant Frame.


There are lots of Miatas driving around with the PPF removed. Mostly because their owner did some sort of transmission (and engine) swap. Some have done it to save weight (negligible.) In addition lots of locost/kit car guys running the whole Miata subframe/diff with no PPF either. In each case, they just support the front of the diff by welding a brace onto the subframe. 

https://www.miataturbo.net/attachme...-v6-thread-p1010093-1-jpg?dateline=1329787307

I'm not sure an engine could be successfully mated to the Miata diff. But if it could, it would also be awfully close to the ground. 

Also, the stock driveshaft only weighs 11 pounds.

Still, the ability to mount batteries in the tunnel instead of a transmission, PPF, and driveshaft is pretty appealing.


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

Re - Diff mountings

With an independent suspension layout the wheel torque and the motor torque have to be resisted by the Diff - 
The Miata and the Subaru diffs are bolted into a subframe which is then rubber mounted to the car's chassis
- The rear rubbers on the Subaru are directly mounted of the diff - the front rubbers are on a metal subframe

Because you need to resist a torque the distance between the rubbers is important

I took the Subaru front diff subframe and cut it down - which increased the loads on the rubbers - but the rubbers I used were more than strong enough for that

As far as "awfully close to the ground" is concerned - if your drive shafts are horizontal and you have tires that are 24 inches in diameter then the center line of the diff will be 12 inches from the ground - with my 11 inch motor (quite large) on that centerline the bottom of the motor would be 12 - 5.5 = 6.5 inches off the ground
In practise that is too HIGH! and I have dropped my motor by an additional inch so my propshaft goes upwards to my diff
For best performance keep all of the heavy bits as low as possible!

Note - the outputs from the diff are CV joints - which do not need an offset BUT the joints on the propshaft are Universal Joints and these DO need a minimum angle to work properly

I had a look at the picture of a modified Miata from Todd - that is horrible! - is it only reacting on one side?
That will twist out of line under load - horrible!


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## toddwcarpenter (Dec 21, 2016)

Duncan said:


> As far as "awfully close to the ground" is concerned - if your drive shafts are horizontal and you have tires that are 24 inches in diameter then the center line of the diff will be 12 inches from the ground - with my 11 inch motor (quite large) on that centerline the bottom of the motor would be 12 - 5.5 = 6.5 inches off the ground
> In practise that is too HIGH! and I have dropped my motor by an additional inch so my propshaft goes upwards to my diff
> For best performance keep all of the heavy bits as low as possible!


I guess I was thinking of it being in an actual miata. Most miata tires are around 23 inches. In addition, the input shaft on the diff is 45 mm lower than the output shafts. I was thinking of trying to directly mount one of those UQM moters for sale on evtv. It seemed really low, but I guess a smaller motor could work.


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

Duncan said:


> Re - Diff mountings
> 
> With an independent suspension layout the wheel torque and the motor torque have to be resisted by the Diff -
> The Miata and the Subaru diffs are bolted into a subframe which is then rubber mounted to the car's chassis


Agreed... mostly. 

Almost all IRS final drives have two reasonably spaced rubber mounts on the rear side, which resist the input (from transmission or electric motor) torque. The exceptions would be final drives mounted on the end of a rigid torque tube from the transmission, but that's really rare.

While the Subaru unit is like most and has a front mount, so the distance from front mount to rear mounts provide the leverage needed to resist axle shaft torque, the Mazda MX-5/RX-8 design extend the diff housing with the Power Plant Frame, transmission housing, and engine block, all the way to the engine mounts; the combined powertrain unit resists axle torque with a 7- or 8-foot lever.



toddwcarpenter said:


> There are lots of Miatas driving around with the PPF removed. Mostly because their owner did some sort of transmission (and engine) swap. Some have done it to save weight (negligible.) In addition lots of locost/kit car guys running the whole Miata subframe/diff with no PPF either. In each case, they just support the front of the diff by welding a brace onto the subframe.


Yes, all sorts of poorly considered hacks are involved in engine swaps. In this case, just bracketing the front of the diff to the subframe works, but I doubt most people doing this consider that the subframe was not intended to take this force in this direction.

While I admire the resourcefulness of many Locost builders, what many of them build is downright scary.


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

Duncan said:


> As far as "awfully close to the ground" is concerned - if your drive shafts are horizontal and you have tires that are 24 inches in diameter then the center line of the diff will be 12 inches from the ground - with my 11 inch motor (quite large) on that centerline the bottom of the motor would be 12 - 5.5 = 6.5 inches off the ground
> In practise that is too HIGH! and I have dropped my motor by an additional inch so my propshaft goes upwards to my diff
> For best performance keep all of the heavy bits as low as possible!


Sure, but...


toddwcarpenter said:


> In addition, the input shaft on the diff is 45 mm lower than the output shafts.


Because all production final drives (that I know of, separate from transaxles) have hypoid gearsets, the pinion shaft is offset from the ring gear axis (axle). This is routinely an inch or two on moderately-sized diffs, putting that 11-inch motor about 5 inches off the ground.

Engines and transmissions routinely slope down toward the rear to put the transmission output (and thus the shaft) lower than the crankshaft.

I suppose how low you want depends on how you want to use the vehicle. A competition vehicle (even on gravel) can tolerate less clearance than a street vehicle, which can tolerate less clearance than anything going off-road.


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

toddwcarpenter said:


> .. In each case, they just support the front of the diff by welding a brace onto the subframe.
> 
> https://www.miataturbo.net/attachme...-v6-thread-p1010093-1-jpg?dateline=1329787307





Duncan said:


> I had a look at the picture of a modified Miata from Todd - that is horrible! - is it only reacting on one side?
> That will twist out of line under load - horrible!


Yes, that's what I mean by poorly considered hacks.

I first thought that the bracket itself looked surprisingly well-constructed... but then I realized that it is the end of the cut-off Power Plant Frame (PPF). In the original vehicle, the PPF is one-sided, but bolts to the side of the transmission, and so the reaction to the vehicle structure is through both engine mounts, not one off-centre anchor point.

I've seen an MX-5 engine swap in which the builder kept the PPF, and anchored it to an added transmission mount (which the MX-5 doesn't have)... still off-centre.


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## toddwcarpenter (Dec 21, 2016)

brian_ said:


> Yes, all sorts of poorly considered hacks are involved in engine swaps. In this case, just bracketing the front of the diff to the subframe works, but I doubt most people doing this consider that the subframe was not intended to take this force in this direction.
> 
> While I admire the resourcefulness of many Locost builders, what many of them build is downright scary.


Since most of the Miatas running around without PPF's are running LSX engines with 300-400 foot pounds of torque BEFORE it's multiplied by the transmission, i think the rear subframe has proven to be more than capable of absorbing this force.


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## toddwcarpenter (Dec 21, 2016)

Here's an example of a high end fabricator who specializes in putting high power chevy engines in Miatas. This is a tube frame rear k-member that is designed to except 9 inch Ford diffs, but is being used to house the stock diff in this case. They still use a single brace on one side of the front of the diff. These guys specialize in putting big power into Miatas and they still came up with a similar solution. The PPF is a brace that's designed to improve throttle response. It's cool if you can run it, but it's far from required. 

https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mi..._ea772c28a29f88950c29eca2b53f2eb0cc027bdc.jpg


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

I see from your picture that the miata rear mounts are a lot further apart than the Subaru - which will make the single sided front mount only inelegant and not totally horrible

Still not a "nice" solution

If I compare that to my car I am sitting right where that V shaped member is


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## dcb (Dec 5, 2009)

the other thing to consider is the miata is very light, and with a big engine up front and rwd there is probably a limit to how much torque will actually develop (regardless what the motor/engine is capable of). plus with smaller tires and a 4+:1 ratio, the fore-aft torque is reduced even further.


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

toddwcarpenter said:


> Since most of the Miatas running around without PPF's are running LSX engines with 300-400 foot pounds of torque BEFORE it's multiplied by the transmission, i think the rear subframe has proven to be more than capable of absorbing this force.


True... although the fact that a design functions without breaking does not necessarily mean that it is good or reliable, and it says more about the capacity margin in Mazda's design than the suitability of the modifications. And in most cases, the lack of traction acts as a torque limiter (as dcb mentioned).

That brings up another good point: a reasonably priced single-speed EV conversion with no reduction gearing between the motor and final drive probably isn't going to have enough torque into the final drive to cause a lot of problems.



Duncan said:


> I see from your picture that the miata rear mounts are a lot further apart than the Subaru - which will make the single sided front mount only inelegant and not totally horrible
> ...


Good point - another way in which Mazda's design forgives mediocre modifications.


I suppose that it's good to keep in mind that the design and construction just needs to be good enough to drive, and doesn't need to be the best that can be built, even within budget and skill restrictions. This is the source of the wide variety of quality in the Locost projects, from first-rate to terrible: the Locost design is a general pattern and a starting frame layout, with individual builders taking their projects in any direction that they want... and of course they don't all have the same idea of what is good construction.


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## slloyd (Jun 7, 2017)

like me! i have no idea what makes a good construction, i'll be happy to take some good example links. if i can duncan, i'm going to follow your work. i don't want to disassemble a donor, i think that would be not good for me.. so hopefully i can ask auto wrecker if they havve the parts i need and just buy it. so far i'm thinking rear axle/differencial, drive shaft, front axel, steering column. 

simultaneously i need to get in contact with my region government to find out what is allowed and not allowed. in Ontario Canada, the information on homebuilts from the gov is practically non-existant with no easy way to get specific advice from a real person who would know.. but i'll stay on it!


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

slloyd said:


> like me! i have no idea what makes a good construction, i'll be happy to take some good example links. if i can duncan, i'm going to follow your work.


Since you're planning the same general type of car - a Lotus Seven-esque tube frame if I understand correctly - I think that makes a lot of sense. This construction is well-suited to mounting unconventional components, because it is easier to incorporate strong mounting points into a tube frame than into unibody, and because you can adjust dimensions as required... and Duncan's obviously works.


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

slloyd said:


> i don't want to disassemble a donor, i think that would be not good for me.. so hopefully i can ask auto wrecker if they havve the parts i need and just buy it. so far i'm thinking rear axle/differencial, drive shaft, front axel, steering column.


That's a reasonable approach, especially if you're not in a position to sell unwanted parts of a donor, or are using parts from multiple donor models.

While wreckers make their most money by breaking vehicles down to individual bits, they are still routinely open to a reasonable price for any assembly that they can pull out intact with minimal effort. That means, for instance, that everything attached to the rear subframe should be available together, and you take it even if it has some bits you don't need; that's great if you want the hubs and suspension. Even if you're down to individual components, they're certainly available.


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

slloyd said:


> simultaneously i need to get in contact with my region government to find out what is allowed and not allowed. in Ontario Canada, the information on homebuilts from the gov is practically non-existant with no easy way to get specific advice from a real person who would know.. but i'll stay on it!


There's probably more legal difficulty with bringing in components than with building your own - importing triggers Canadian federal rules which can make kits difficult. The ideal information source might be a "local" (anywhere in Ontario) club, even if the cars they build are not much like yours.
This may be useful: Yahoo Group - Ontario Handcrafted Vehicle Club

Insurance is another issue. It doesn't matter if you meet all the government rules if you can't get an insurer to cover it for liability. Be prepared to go to a specialist insurer, different from the company you use for your "normal" vehicles; you may even need to go to the insurance industry's Facility Association - which covers anyone and anything that no company wants to cover - but I'm sure that people have insured at least kits (and maybe homebuilts) without resorting to this. According to their rate document, they do covers homebuilts.

You may be building a "kit" or a "home built", depending on what design and components (particularly the frame and body) you choose.

At least you shouldn't have a problem with exhaust emissions testing.  Maybe being an EV will get you some points with the bureaucrats, since EVs are trendy.


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## slloyd (Jun 7, 2017)

Ontario hand crafted club seems to be defunct. only a couple of mentions in last few years. 

i'm aware of the kit car FAQ on canadian website but it doesn't cover home builts. it assumes you are ordering kits and then goes on and one about shipping it to canada. i plan to goto auto wrecker and ask if they can arrange the parts i need (not sure what those are yet, but assume i can figure it out reading duncan's build thread). i suppose i should ensure all parts come from cars made in canada. then locost frame build from there.


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

slloyd said:


> Ontario hand crafted club seems to be defunct. only a couple of mentions in last few years.


I saw that. The information is probably still valid, and it may still be possible to contact people.



slloyd said:


> i'm aware of the kit car FAQ on canadian website but it doesn't cover home builts. it assumes you are ordering kits and then goes on and one about shipping it to canada. i plan to goto auto wrecker and ask if they can arrange the parts i need (not sure what those are yet, but assume i can figure it out reading duncan's build thread).


I think you still need to decide if you want to call the Locost a kit, or say the your are doing a homebuilt... since they have quite different requirements.



slloyd said:


> i suppose i should ensure all parts come from cars made in canada. then locost frame build from there.


Either way, the parts should come from a Canadian supplier (wrecker), and should be from a vehicle sold legally in Canada, but it doesn't matter where the vehicle was manufactured. Limiting yourself to cars made in Canada would severe, since very few models are manufactured here... it would mean:

no Subaru
no Mazda
no Nissan
no Kia or Hyundai
no Volkswagen, Audi, Porsche, BMW, Mercedes
no Fords other than crossover/SUVs
no Honda/Acura other than Civic and CR-V
no Toyota other than Corolla and SUVs
no compact or subcompact GM products
no trucks of any type or brand
no Fiat Chrysler compact or subcompact cars
nothing of any other brand
... but hey, you could use a Camaro diff, as long as it isn't a current Camaro, since they stopped making them here. 

Canada, the United States, and Mexico have a combined auto manufacturing industry, in which parts and vehicles freely pass over the border. One result is that most models are built in very few locations, and shipped to where they are needed. Canadian plants build more cars than Canadians buy, but of only a few models. Some interesting manufacturers (such as Mazda) are too small to justify building cars anywhere in North America.


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## slloyd (Jun 7, 2017)

lol, fair point. if the car was sold in canada it means it was safetied and certified for use in this country. that's good enough. 

i actually want to certify electric locost 7 as a homebuilt, though this might mean more difficulty getting insurance (thanks for the discussion on this btw). its one of my goals to show step by step all the parts of this build to make it fully electric EV, with everything from ultra low cost source (except the battery which likely will be purchased new at going market rate). and to me this is homebuilt, mostly from scratch, and not starting from a kit. i realize piece mealing a donor car and then selling the rest would be cheaper, but i think i can get the parts i need at low to reasonable cost from wrecker, and so could anyone else. 

found the phone number for MOT, i'll give them a call monday. what shall i ask them? here's my going list:
- do you have written guideline for homebuilt (not kit)?
- if i pull the drive train (axles, drive shaft, differential, hubs) from an existing vehicle which was originally certified for use within canada does that make it a kit? what if i get the parts from auto wrecker, does that change anything?
- i want (actually already have) to design my own motor, controller and software .. is that going to be a problem? does the software have to be certified in any way?
- since this is not a production vehicle made by a major manufacturer but rather a garage built car by an individual is the vehicle obligated to meet all of the safety standards such as ABS, ESC, air bags, etc? can you be more specific on what minimum safety aspects are required as was always the case but maybe a couple extra things becuase this is an EV such as an inertia switch on the battery, dual contactors etc, fire extinguisher..? 
- is there a name/email i could have to discuss in detail further with someone if needed?

Transport Canada 
Motor Vehicle Safety 
*Telephone:* 1-800-333-0371 (toll-free), 1-613-998-8616 (Ottawa region) 
*Email:* [email protected]


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

slloyd said:


> ...
> found the phone number for MOT, i'll give them a call monday
> 
> ...
> ...


It's good to see progress, but just a note: what you can license and drive is determined by the province (Ontario in this case, would be the state in the U.S.); what you can manufacture (for sale to the public) or import is controlled by the federal government. You're trying to build a vehicle such that you can license it (a provincial matter), but the contact information is for the federal agency. I think you should have two separate lists of questions, and you may not need the federal one at all if you don't import anything.

Ontario Ministry of Transportation - Contact Us


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

slloyd said:


> - if i pull the drive train (axles, drive shaft, differential, hubs) from an existing vehicle which was originally certified for use within canada does that make it a kit? what if i get the parts from auto wrecker, does that change anything?


It's good to ask what collection of parts is considered a kit, but I think you should ask about structure and body, since that appears to be what they will consider a kit. And/or just ask what constitutes a kit.



slloyd said:


> - i want (actually already have) to design my own motor, controller and software .. is that going to be a problem? does the software have to be certified in any way?


Good to ask. I think you'll find that anything not related to safety or emissions will not be of interest to them. Unless they clue in that there are hazardous voltages involved, I doubt either the province or the feds will care.



slloyd said:


> - since this is not a production vehicle made by a major manufacturer but rather a garage built car by an individual is the vehicle obligated to meet all of the safety standards such as ABS, ESC, air bags, etc? can you be more specific on what minimum safety aspects are required as was always the case but maybe a couple extra things becuase this is an EV such as an inertia switch on the battery, dual contactors etc, fire extinguisher..?


It might be helpful to read the provincial vehicle equipment regulations and ask them if there is anything in addition to what you have found, such as:
R.R.O. 1990, Reg. 596: GENERAL
under Highway Traffic Act, R.S.O. 1990, c. H.8
R.R.O. 1990, Reg. 587: EQUIPMENT
under Highway Traffic Act, R.S.O. 1990, c. H.8
R.R.O. 1990, Reg. 613: SEAT BELT ASSEMBLIES
under Highway Traffic Act, R.S.O. 1990, c. H.8
I'm sure there are more... happy searching in Ontario e-Laws (I searched for "vehicle")


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## slloyd (Jun 7, 2017)

brian_ said:


> It might be helpful to read the provincial vehicle equipment regulations


yes and also if you read it and can reference specific sections to ask intelligent quetsions it goes a LONG way to demonstrating that you're taking safety seriously.

ps. about the hazardous voltage. there are leakage current detectors that are sort of like GFCI which will help here in addition to proper insulation and good packaging to prevent accidental contact.


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## toddwcarpenter (Dec 21, 2016)

Maybe try the locost forum. https://www.locostusa.com


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## slloyd (Jun 7, 2017)

thanks todd. for sure i know of this website, i'm basically bouncing between frame build instructions of www.locostusa.com with the electric propulsion instruction of this website. 

i'm at the point where i just need to confirm what is possible in Ontario to build as "home build" and learn any special rules required to get registered. looking for documented in writing from MOT sort of guidelines. a few years ago i went to local MOT service desk and asked and they gave me a form that basically said make sure to keep receipts showing payed taxes, take pics of you building it, get it safetied (kick tires test) and you good. if that's still the case, great, if not, need to know the exacting details.


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## Baratong (Nov 29, 2012)

slloyd said:


> ... i'm at the point where i just need to confirm what is possible in Ontario to build as "home build" and learn any special rules required to get registered. looking for documented in writing from MOT sort of guidelines. ....


Moltenmetal here on the forums is in Toronto so he could possibly help with some of your questions. His main build thread is here: http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showthread.php?t=95790

He built a nice Spitfire EV and drives it regularly.


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

Baratong said:


> Moltenmetal here on the forums is in Toronto so he could possibly help with some of your questions. His main build thread is here: http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showthread.php?t=95790
> 
> He built a nice Spitfire EV and drives it regularly.


A good tip... but remember that for both registration and insurance, a modified production car is very different from a home built, or even a kit vehicle.


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## Ivansgarage (Sep 3, 2011)

Here is Deans car direct drive (mizlplix)

http://ivanbennett.com/ev-motor_20.html


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## slloyd (Jun 7, 2017)

thx ivan, yes i know dean's car. i post as HighHopes on your website 

i'm getting closer to being able to rewind a motor per your instructions and build a car. just need some space... got a couple of leads, hoping they turn out. also still am work working to convince my wife that a garage in the backgard is a great idea


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## Moltenmetal (Mar 20, 2014)

Jan Szott in Pickering did something very similar to what you're planning- I didn't read the whole thread, but here's a link to his build log:

http://szott.com/zot2/zot2.html

He doesn't have the car "road legal"- it's a track car which he trailers to racing events.

Not sure what it takes to get a Locost Super7 on the road here in Ontario, but it's apparently possible as I've seen them at shows and they weren't trailered to the show...But word is, some of the insurers who insure hotrods and engine swapped vehicles etc. will NOT insure electric conversions. You need to have insurance in hand before you begin work, or you could be very disappointed with a car which you cannot put on the road.

I managed to get a production vehicle on the road only with great difficulty- even though it meets all of the requirements of the Ministry of Transportation to be road legal. Others had much less trouble. Another guy I know has a Beetle-based dunebuggy which he managed to insure through a broker using the Facility Association, which is the insurer of last resort here in Ontario- but despite it being a Facility policy, he only pays about $1000/yr so it's not onerously expensive.


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## Moltenmetal (Mar 20, 2014)

BTW the only way it will not be onerously expensive is if there are more cars in the family than drivers- that's the only way they will insure a vehicle as "occasionally driven". Two drivers and two cars? It's automatically assumed that one car is the principal car for each driver, and rates go up accordingly.


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## BWA (Mar 14, 2015)

Absolutely tonnes of rear axles in Canada if you start looking at British stuff, MGA and B, Austin Healey (the big one and Sprites), basically any British Saloons, all cheap, quite often free...

Most British Specials use Spitfire front end stuff, brakes, steering knuckles, rack etc.....

This stuff is laying around everywhere in Canada......

Chevrolet Chevette, and, Mustang II, also a good source of rear axle and front end bits. Again, all cheap stuff.....


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## slloyd (Jun 7, 2017)

ya, you're right BWA i'm finding lots of options. i'm pretty much good to go for construction, just need a garage. this weekend i'm going to stake out an area in the backyard to get my wife use to the idea. i'm thinking of a strategy, mark out a really big area and then negotiate down to the size i want


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

BWA said:


> Absolutely tonnes of rear axles in Canada if you start looking at British stuff, MGA and B, Austin Healey (the big one and Sprites), basically any British Saloons, all cheap, quite often free...
> 
> Most British Specials use Spitfire front end stuff, brakes, steering knuckles, rack etc.....
> 
> This stuff is laying around everywhere in Canada...


I think this depends where you are in Canada. Around here, in Alberta, I can't think of any wrecker who would likely have any old British axle. I do know a guy I would ask about it; when I checked with him about rebuilding a Spitfire engine a month ago, he said that if I needed a block or crank the only way to get one would be a rebuildable but dead core engine that would cost several hundred dollars, so free workable mechanical components seem unlikely. Perhaps if you can find whole worthless old British cars, you can run your own salvage yard, and perhaps the situation is very different elsewhere.

It's true that British stuff built with whatever was lying around decades ago did tend to use Spitfire front ends. I have a Spitfire, and while it was a blast to drive (when the engine still held oil pressure) I wouldn't want any of the parts in another car; the drivetrain components are similar, as most Spitfire owners don't consider the transmission or final drive unit suitable for much more than the stock power (which wouldn't be enough for even the cheapest and most gutless car sold today).

I personally wouldn't want anything which is decades obsolete, or anything which is British and was never readily supported here, let alone both at the same time.

To be fair, when I was at the recent All-British Field Meet here someone mentioned "Victoria British" as the source of anything needed. Sure enough, Victoria British has an impressive array of parts of long-obsolete vehicles... but even they don't have some parts. For instance, for an MGB they have lots of seals and bearings for the rear axle... but no housings, ring gears, or differentials. 38 years out of production, that's not unreasonable.



BWA said:


> ... Chevrolet Chevette, and, Mustang II, also a good source of rear axle and front end bits. Again, all cheap stuff.....


A friend of mine was building an old van, and was looking at aftermarket suspension options. The "Mustang II" front suspension design is popular, but he found that there were no actual Mustang II parts available now, and the new aftermarket parts to fit were stupidly expensive... thousands of dollars for a complete suspension.

Some prairie clubs have run a Chevette ice racing class, because the cars worked and were cheap. There are still a dozen running cars in the Edmonton area, but they're running out of cars, and a couple of years ago the club stated "It is no longer possible to buy a salvage chevette engine that is good enough to race". With the last Chevette built 30 years ago (and the last Mustang II built 40 year ago), they've essentially all rusted to junk and been crushed, except for a few treasured vehicles from which no one is likely to offer free parts. Of course, there's always the classic "found it in a field" source.


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

If you are thinking about building yourself a garage/shed - think about a two post hoist

http://www.trademe.co.nz/business-farming-industry/industrial/hoists-jacks/auction-1370929267.htm

I paid $2,500 (NZD) for one of these complete brand new with the mounting hardware, a local company is importing them by the container load 
When I got mine there was a queue of cars with trailers getting their hoists 

Incredibly useful - BUT you do need a shed that is high enough


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

I know a guy who mentioned that he had this type of hoist, which surprised me because I couldn't imagine him doing enough work in the garage to justify the many thousands of dollars that it would cost. Then he explained that they were quite reasonably priced; even here, at a popular store for inexpensive tools, they're as little as CA$2800 for a typical shop-style two-post (BIG RED 2-Post Vehicle Lift), or CA$2700 for an all-hydraulic portable unit which is even better for low ceilings but can't lift high enough to walk under (MaxJax 2-Post Vehicle Lift).


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## slloyd (Jun 7, 2017)

cool, thanks for the tips. we have height restriction where i am. but i also have a paved alley way maintained by the city which just SCREAMS for a garge. right now i have a 17' wide double swing gate which has been great for bringing in heavy equipment during reno. but reno is done now.. so ....


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## BuildMore (Oct 28, 2016)

I have a MaxJax, got it for $2k US from Amazon including shipping, no tax. I'm in a 2-car residential garage. Ceiling height is an issue. I've done lots of engine swaps on jackstands in driveways and alleys as a kid. But I'm no kid anymore, lol, which makes a lift, even a short one, a tool that can lengthen my worktime. It's really gonna come in handy when it's time to do battery boxes and undercar wiring.

I love that I can unbolt the MaxJax posts and clear the floor, or clear the car door, when the car is on the deck. The anchors were a bit tricky, but the right concrete and the right drill made it work out ok. I have an old office chair to roll around on, and I also bought a little roll-around toolbox with a seat, and we just scoot around underneath. I saw a video on YT of a guy who uses it outside his garage in his driveway. He put the anchors into the concrete driveway. Just rolls it outside, bolts it down (5 bolts per tower), hooks up the hoses and goes to work. I don't wanna sound like an advert, but it takes just a few minutes to move a tower once you have the anchors set.

I've done a fair amount of undercar work on my Hornet and my Jeep. I'm pretty happy with it. 6000-pound working load, it'll even pick up my wife's Suburban-sized Mommy-mobile/bus. It works out for me.


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

Hi
How does it make sure that it lifts each side the same?

My hoist has a wire rope arrangement - this goes over the top and is the reason for the hoist having to be so tall
You can get one where the wire ropes go along the ground but then you have to maneuver around that lump between the pillars


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

Duncan said:


> How does it make sure that it lifts each side the same?


I wondered the same thing, but from the retail listing that I linked:


> Each MaxJax system comes with a cast iron gear flow divider providing precisely equalized lifting.


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## BuildMore (Oct 28, 2016)

I've hoisted my cars many times and have never experienced an out-of-balance lift. The pump sends fluid through an assembly with valves and fittings, like Brian_ said, that probably balances the amount of lift.

There is a motorcycle bracket that attaches to a single tower, so it's possible to use just one tower at a time.

A cool thing is that for the cost of extra anchors, you can configure placements in different parts of the shop. I bought an extra set from Amazon for just-in-case, lol.


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

BuildMore said:


> I've hoisted my cars many times and have never experienced an out-of-balance lift. The pump sends fluid through an assembly with valves and fittings, like Brian_ said, that probably balances the amount of lift.


I had not seen this type of flow divider before looking at this product, but the way it works is that there is a gear pump in the line to each lift cylinder, and the shafts of the two identical pumps are just connected to each other, so the volume which flows to one cylinder always matches the flow to the other cylinder. They could get out of synch due to unequal leakage past the pump seals, but it's good to hear that this isn't a problem.


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## slloyd (Jun 7, 2017)

wife gave the OK for a workshop!!! now i start saving up some $. got a quote for 14x22, lofted barn style with metal roof. progress


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## slloyd (Jun 7, 2017)

now i'm looking into electric heating options so i can build through winter. garage has 240V, 100A service so i can handle a large heater. i'd like a ceiling mount unit that can heat up an insulated single car garage for very cold to just acceptably warm in about 30min. also heater should have fan only option for summer time. preference would be for remote operation so i can pre-heat garage on command via cell phone (i'm thinking some sort of wi-fi enabled thermostat could do this). any recommendations?


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## Ivansgarage (Sep 3, 2011)

slloyd said:


> now i'm looking into electric heating options so i can build through winter. garage has 240V, 100A service so i can handle a large heater. i'd like a ceiling mount unit that can heat up an insulated single car garage for very cold to just acceptably warm in about 30min. also heater should have fan only option for summer time. preference would be for remote operation so i can pre-heat garage on command via cell phone (i'm thinking some sort of wi-fi enabled thermostat could do this). any recommendations?


Heaters
https://www.mcmaster.com/#ceiling-mount-heaters/=18w4jlr


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## Darxus (May 10, 2010)

Thanks for this discussion. I didn't even realize differentials were soft mounted. I did a bit more reading, and one of the reasons not to hard mount them, as I planned to, is noise.

"Its deafening. Especially in a car with no carpet. I cant even hear that well after driving the car more than an hour anywhere. 

To the good side... zero wheel hop and never worrying about stuffing flexing when you don't want it to. I have solid diff and solid subframe mounts from PHR."

- supraforums.com

So I need to figure out how to deal with soft bushings.


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