# [EVDL] low buget FWD



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Forkenswift, anyone?

Z



> gottdi <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> >
> > I have to agree but what I find interesting is when someone wants a low
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

The problem is when you don't have a junkyard in this rural villages in
Alaska. So you can fly a car in, but that will cost at least $1500.

>
> >
> > I have to agree but what I find interesting is when someone wants a low
> > budget ev then proceeds to go into this long list of re-engineering ideas
> > on
> > how to do something or others piping in on other re-engineering ideas
> that
> > if one was going to actually take one or two of these ideas and make it
> > happen they will no longer have their LOW BUDGET EV.
> >
> > The electric motor is powerful and leaving your vehicles transmission in
> > place will not reduce your speed or distance for the average ev built. It
> > will give you the ability to use different gears if the need ever arises
> > and
> > you will have saved your self a very big headache and you will have
> > something that actually works.
> >
> > Will a re-engineered idea actually work anyway? Maybe not. But like was
> > said
> > if you decide that re-engineering is required and you go forward with
> your
> > project the best to you and please post your progress and results.
> >
> > We all love results and photos.
> >
> > Pete : )
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >


> > > Electric Blue auto convertions wrote:
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

I like Mike's original post and I think many here have lost focus on what he 
has asked.

<I got a 1987 Chevy Sprint. The automatic tranny and engine are gone.
<I have the CV axles.
<Using 36 volts and 6.7" motor would it be OK to connect a motor directly to
<one of the axles? Does it matter which one?
<The other axle would need to become a stub so the wheel bearing would still 
work.

<I realize we may have addressed some of these issues earlier, but the fact
<that I only need 25 mph puts it into a different category.

Couldn't he just cradle a double shaft motor between the half shafts? The 
low speed requirement
implies a low voltage solution (great), but the 1:1 drive requires high 
current for short periods of
time (not great) for decent acceleration.

This presents a couple of challenges:

1. How to couple the motor to the wheels.
2. A motor that can take high peak currents, double shafted, and a 
controller that can handle the current requirements.
3 Non of the above should cost and arm and a leg.

I'm still a newbie here, but I've been fascinated by this thread and would 
love to here what the vets think.

Thanks,
Darrin Brunk Pensacola, FLA


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "m gol" <[email protected]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, January 02, 2009 12:51 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] low buget FWD


> The problem is when you don't have a junkyard in this rural villages in
> Alaska. So you can fly a car in, but that will cost at least $1500.

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General EVDL support: http://evdl.org/help/
Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
Archives: http://evdl.org/archive/
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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

You are forgetting the need for differential action between the front wheels
and the current requirement would be system maximum always unless coasting,
not just short periods of time. The only question is what you would kill
first, motor, controller or batteries.




> Darrin-12 wrote:
> >
> > Couldn't he just cradle a double shaft motor between the half shafts? The
> > low speed requirement
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> enganear wrote:
> > You are forgetting the need for differential action between the front wheels
> > and the current requirement would be system maximum always unless coasting,
> > not just short periods of time. The only question is what you would kill
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

If wired in series, torque at both motors will be the same, regardless of
difference in speed. Ie, the same as an open diff. 

To get a similar effect as a limited slip diff, you would wire in parrallel.

Matt
-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf
Of Jake Anderson
Sent: Friday, 2 January 2009 9:50 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] low buget FWD



> enganear wrote:
> > You are forgetting the need for differential action between the front
> > wheels and the current requirement would be system maximum always
> > unless coasting, not just short periods of time. The only question is
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

If you compare the difference in speed (RPM) of a wheel
and a typical motor, you see how big the mis-match is:
- typical wheel has about 800 r/mi
- at 25 MPH this leads to 20,000 revs/hr
or about 300 RPM
Now look at your motor spec and you will see that you
are severely lugging it, you would likely need a 15x
reduction to run the motor near redline at max speed.
This means that you must send 15x more current into
the motor when directly coupled to the wheel than
when run through a reduction.
Typical diff has about 4x reduction, the manual
gearbox will be able to give you the remaining reduction
if you scrounge a scrapyard or classifieds for a
stickshift version of that or comparable car.

Of course you can try to buy a Zilla 2k and send
1800 Amps into the motor while trying to keep it
from burning up with heavy blowers, but when you
use a 15x reduction gearing you only need 120A
motor current for the same effect, so you have much 
more acceleration even if you install a cheap
Curtis controller, instead of a Zilla.

Note that so-called wheel motors are *designed*
to run at low speeds, by giving them an excessive
number of poles and by designing them as "longarm"
motors, ie the rotor has large diameter, to help
with generating enough torque without the
reduction that usually is used to multiply torque.

Success,

Cor van de Water
Director HW & Systems Architecture Group
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
Email: [email protected] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [email protected]
Tel: +1 408 383 7626 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Tel: +91 (040)23117400 x203 XoIP: +31877841130

Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail.
-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On
Behalf Of Darrin
Sent: Friday, January 02, 2009 1:26 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] low buget FWD

I like Mike's original post and I think many here have lost focus on
what he has asked.

<I got a 1987 Chevy Sprint. The automatic tranny and engine are gone.
<I have the CV axles.
<Using 36 volts and 6.7" motor would it be OK to connect a motor
directly to <one of the axles? Does it matter which one?
<The other axle would need to become a stub so the wheel bearing would
still work.

<I realize we may have addressed some of these issues earlier, but the
fact <that I only need 25 mph puts it into a different category.

Couldn't he just cradle a double shaft motor between the half shafts?
The low speed requirement implies a low voltage solution (great), but
the 1:1 drive requires high current for short periods of time (not
great) for decent acceleration.

This presents a couple of challenges:

1. How to couple the motor to the wheels.
2. A motor that can take high peak currents, double shafted, and a 
controller that can handle the current requirements.
3 Non of the above should cost and arm and a leg.

I'm still a newbie here, but I've been fascinated by this thread and
would love to here what the vets think.

Thanks,
Darrin Brunk Pensacola, FLA


----- Original Message -----
From: "m gol" <[email protected]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, January 02, 2009 12:51 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] low buget FWD


> The problem is when you don't have a junkyard in this rural villages
in
> Alaska. So you can fly a car in, but that will cost at least $1500.

_______________________________________________
General EVDL support: http://evdl.org/help/
Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
Archives: http://evdl.org/archive/
Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev


_______________________________________________
General EVDL support: http://evdl.org/help/
Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
Archives: http://evdl.org/archive/
Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

I am by far no vet here but what Mike is looking for is basically the 
performance of a golf cart from a small car.
As far as the motor size 6.7 I think that's about the same size as a typical 
golf cart. My guess is a little small for the application without a major 
gear reduction. It's also not a good idea to drive only 1 wheel in a front 
wheel drive car. You will be fighting the steering wheel and motor torque 
pulling in the direction of the motor. You also have to fab up a CV jount of 
sorts.

I still think an IRS Diff is a good idea and inexpensive (junkyard finds) 
but you would need to gear it down even further than what most ICE diffs 
will give you. If coupled by a belt or chain, you could play with gear ratio 
some. Most rear diff will be expensive to regear and you have limited 
options. I think someone suggested a Ford 8.8, thats a good one for gear 
changes (aftermarket options) but heavy and a overkill for the application. 
If going this route look for an aluminum case one from a Cobra Mustang or 
Lincoln mark VII and save about 30lbs. The Cougar and Thunderbird IRS is 
cast iron and may have a 7.5 and will have less gear options avalible.

Both have a flat flange on the pinion that would be easy to fab up either a 
belt or chain pulley for.
search "8.8 pinion"
http://www.dennysdriveshaft.com/p541_pinion_flange_for_ford_8.8_inch_rear_ends_use_with_large_bol.html
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/87-93-Ford-Mustang-8-8-Pinion-Flange-GT-LX-Cobra_W0QQitemZ310082471020QQcmdZViewItem

Stub




> Darrin wrote:
> > I like Mike's original post and I think many here have lost focus on
> > what he has asked.
> >
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> <I got a 1987 Chevy Sprint. The automatic tranny and engine are gone.
> <I have the CV axles.
> <Using 36 volts and 6.7" motor would it be OK to connect a motor directly to
> <one of the axles? Does it matter which one?
> <The other axle would need to become a stub so the wheel bearing would still
> work.
> 
> <I realize we may have addressed some of these issues earlier, but the fact
> <that I only need 25 mph puts it into a different category.

How about looking for a transmission from a snowcat, heavy snowmobile or 
small tractor. There was an electric Miata on eBay about 6 months ago 
that used a belt drive transmission from a snowcat. Seller said it 
worked fine but slipped a bit when starting uphill. Since you only need 
25mph, anything like that would probably work.

--Rick

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

How about just getting a snowmobile or tractor and driving that?? Sounds 
like this is making something very complicated for a simple application.

--Randall
Concord, NC


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Rick Beebe" <[email protected]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, January 02, 2009 11:03 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] low buget FWD


>> <I got a 1987 Chevy Sprint. The automatic tranny and engine are gone.
>> <I have the CV axles.
>> <Using 36 volts and 6.7" motor would it be OK to connect a motor directly 
>> to
>> <one of the axles? Does it matter which one?
>> <The other axle would need to become a stub so the wheel bearing would 
>> still
>> work.
>>
>> <I realize we may have addressed some of these issues earlier, but the 
>> fact
>> <that I only need 25 mph puts it into a different category.
>
> How about looking for a transmission from a snowcat, heavy snowmobile or
> small tractor. There was an electric Miata on eBay about 6 months ago
> that used a belt drive transmission from a snowcat. Seller said it
> worked fine but slipped a bit when starting uphill. Since you only need
> 25mph, anything like that would probably work.
>
> --Rick
>
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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

In this low power low budget situation, why not use belt drive like the 
tropica. Perhaps industrial v-belts (shallower angle than automotive. )
put a 4 belt pully on the motor that is 2" diameter and put a 2 belt 12" 
pully on each of the cv shafts mounted in a bearing. Mount the motor on 
a jack plate to tighten the belts. This should have enough give for 
differential action.

These belts and pulleys would be common air compressor parts and can 
easily handle 20HP

If you can't get enough reduction in one shot then a chain and sprocket 
to the idler shaft that has the 4 belts on it can be done.
The there and back method has been used for years.
two shafts on motor shaft is a small pully and a large pully on bearings
on the second shaft is one small and one large pully locked togather 
and the shaft is on bearings.

so the motor spins the small pully to the large on the idler , lets 
say 5:1 reduction
then the belt from the small idler pully comes back to the ;arge 
pully on bearings and is used to drive the wheels
the second 5:1 ratio here gives us 10:1 total

Just use your imagination!

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Jeff,
In the 1970's, I helped convert a DAF van for application at the USPS. It 
had a belt differential which doubled as a variable speed transmission. (We 
didn't need the variable speed feature, and we disabled it) One inherent 
advantage was limited slip. The belts were good for 15,000 miles, but we 
never saw much wear on them. This 1/4 ton van went cross country in the 
Clean Air Car race in 1971 which demonstrated good reliability.
George




On Sat, 03 Jan 2009 07:37:13 -0800, Jeff Shanab wrote
> In this low power low budget situation, why not use belt drive like 
> the tropica. Perhaps industrial v-belts (shallower angle than 
> automotive. ) put a 4 belt pully on the motor that is 2" diameter 
> and put a 2 belt 12" pully on each of the cv shafts mounted in a 
> bearing. Mount the motor on a jack plate to tighten the belts. This 
> should have enough give  for differential action.
> 
> These belts and pulleys would be common air compressor parts and can 
> easily handle 20HP
> 
> If you can't get enough reduction in one shot then a chain and 
> sprocket to the idler shaft that has the 4 belts on it can be done. 
> The there and back method has been used for years. two shafts on 
> motor shaft is a small pully and a large pully on bearings on the 
> second shaft is one small and one large pully locked togather and 
> the shaft is on bearings.
> 
> so the motor spins the small pully to the large on the idler , 
> lets say 5:1 reduction then the belt from the small idler pully 
> comes back to the ;arge pully on bearings and is used to drive the wheels
> the second 5:1 ratio here gives us 10:1 total
> 
> Just use your imagination!
> 
> _______________________________________________
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> Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
> Archives: http://evdl.org/archive/
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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Can I keep this thread alive for just a little bit longer?

>From my understanding this list exist to advance the state of the art for EV 
conversions and provide support to those who strive build an EV that meets 
their requirements. Mike's requirements are for a low cost conversion of a 
good glider into a NEV. It is has become clear to me that the only real 
path to that is to incorporate a compatible transaxle. He must have the 
gear reduction and differential for a viable EV and there is no cheaper way 
to achieve this than with the proper transaxle. That also means he has to 
aquire the adapter plate and shaft coupler ($500?). Can he get a used 48V 
forklift motor to drive the car? If so where do you get these. What about 
a controller? Will a $200 Kelly do the trick?

I guess what I'm try to get at is that if we can find low cost methods to 
achieve Mike's goals we can advance the state of the art and open the 
possibility of creating an EV to many more. Turning a Swift into a NEV 
shouldn't cost more than a grand!

Darrin Brunk Pensacola, FLA


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "gottdi" <[email protected]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, January 02, 2009 11:27 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] low buget FWD


>
> Here is what I have gathered so far:
>
> 1. The car has already been purchased.
> 2. It has no transmission or engine.
> 3. It was cheap. (This I think is relative and was not confirmed) Maybe
> spent too much.
> 4. Wants to keep it cheap.
> 5. Has no local wrecking yards available in Alaska.
> 6. Shipping a transmission will cost at least $1500.
>
> So with all that I see no real way to keep it a LOW BUDGET ev.
>
> I don't see any advantage from any of the ideas posted and none will allow
> him to make it a low budget ev. That is a lot of re-engineering and it 
> will
> be expensive.
>
> I vote for selling the vehicle and find another one with a manual
> transmission from the start.
>
> Move forward from there. I am not saying that the ideas posted can't be 
> done
> but they won't be done and keep the conversion Low Budget.
>
> Yes. Go check out Forkenswift. Heck Check mine out. It is considered a low
> budget EV.
>
>
> Think reasonable when responding and keep in mind the issues (what he has)
> and what the goal is. LOW BUDGET.
>
>


> > Electric Blue auto convertions wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >>
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Sure you can keep this alive as long as you like. What is being said is why
reinvent the wheel when it already exists. So why try to re-engineer the
project just to eliminate the transmission. It is the re-engineering part
that will take the car out of the low budget realm. Get a transmission then
go find a small forklift motor or a large one and then if you can only
afford a 48 volt controller then by all means buy it. I'd suggest though
that 6 volt deep cycle batteries be used. That can give you a simple around
town style electric car and it will keep it in the low budget realm. I found
my motor on the web and had shipped. It included the motor, adapter plate,
flywheel, pressure plate, and clutch disk for a total of $650 bucks. I
already had a 72 volt controller from a different project and in the end
that controller cost me about $100. My Car cost me $1200 and the batteries
cost $925. A couple hundred for the 2/0 cable and other parts. The contactor
I already had but I did buy one for under $100 to be used later. It is
possible to build a budget EV and still have decent performance. I will
upgrade as time goes by. For now I am OK with the performance. It has been
and still is a good learning project for me. Complements our Solar Home
quite fine and I plan on building an EV for the track just for fun and
summer bombing around the neighbor hood. 

Pete ; )



> Darrin-12 wrote:
> >
> > Can I keep this thread alive for just a little bit longer?
> >
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

I sent a long message to the Original Poster with
options I thought of, but I Like the idea of Pulleys....
and there's a Grainger in Alaska, you can't beat that!

Have fun!


PS in my learn-at-home-self-taught motor and milling class,
I put a 3/8" threaded coupler on the shaft from a pool motor,
and machined it to a taper, so I could bolt on a pulley.
the motor spun a bit fast for a lathe, but it did the job
(for machining the coupler; it did not have enough HP for
a snowblower 

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

In a message dated 1/3/2009 10:56:46 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, 
[email protected] writes:

Jeff,
In the 1970's, I helped convert a DAF van for application at the USPS. It 
had a belt differential which doubled as a variable speed transmission. (We 
didn't need the variable speed feature, and we disabled it) One inherent 
advantage was limited slip. The belts were good for 15,000 miles, but we 
never saw much wear on them. This 1/4 ton van went cross country in the 
Clean Air Car race in 1971 which demonstrated good reliability.
George




On Sat, 03 Jan 2009 07:37:13 -0800, Jeff Shanab wrote
> In this low power low budget situation, why not use belt drive like 
> the tropica. Perhaps industrial v-belts (shallower angle than 
> automotive. ) put a 4 belt pully on the motor that is 2" diameter 
> and put a 2 belt 12" pully on each of the cv shafts mounted in a 
> bearing. Mount the motor on a jack plate to tighten the belts. This 
> should have enough give for differential action.
> 
> These belts and pulleys would be common air compressor parts and can 
> easily handle 20HP
> 
> If you can't get enough reduction in one shot then a chain and 
> sprocket to the idler shaft that has the 4 belts on it can be done. 
> The there and back method has been used for years. two shafts on 
> motor shaft is a small pully and a large pully on bearings on the 
> second shaft is one small and one large pully locked togather and 
> the shaft is on bearings.
> 
> so the motor spins the small pully to the large on the idler , 
> lets say 5:1 reduction then the belt from the small idler pully 
> comes back to the ;arge pully on bearings and is used to drive the wheels
> the second 5:1 ratio here gives us 10:1 total
OOPS ... 5 to 1 feeding 5 to 1 gives 25 to 1 final ratio. Perhaps we all 
need reminded to multiply ratios , not to add them, I know I will never forget 
that after getting it wrong on the test !
> 
> Just use your imagination! ( Please the calculator is more accurate than 
the imagination ! )
> 
> _______________________________________________
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> Archives: http://evdl.org/archive/
> Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev

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**************New year...new news. Be the first to know what is making 
headlines. (http://www.aol.com/?ncid=emlcntaolcom00000026)
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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Seth,
What are you saying here? I don't follow bolting to a taper.
Thanx,
storm



> I put a 3/8" threaded coupler on the shaft from a pool motor,
> and machined it to a taper, so I could bolt on a pulley.

>




-- 
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/1059
http://stormselectric.blogspot.com/
Storm

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

>
> In a message dated 1/3/2009 10:56:46 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, 
> [email protected] writes:
>
> Jeff,
> In the 1970's, I helped convert a DAF van for application at the USPS. It 
> had a belt differential which doubled as a variable speed transmission. (We 
> didn't need the variable speed feature, and we disabled it) One inherent 
> advantage was limited slip. The belts were good for 15,000 miles, but we 
> never saw much wear on them. This 1/4 ton van went cross country in the 
> Clean Air Car race in 1971 which demonstrated good reliability.
> George
>
>
>
>
> On Sat, 03 Jan 2009 07:37:13 -0800, Jeff Shanab wrote
> 
>> > In this low power low budget situation, why not use belt drive like 
>> > the tropica. Perhaps industrial v-belts (shallower angle than 
>> > automotive. ) put a 4 belt pully on the motor that is 2" diameter 
>> > and put a 2 belt 12" pully on each of the cv shafts mounted in a 
>> > bearing. Mount the motor on a jack plate to tighten the belts. This 
>> > should have enough give for differential action.
>> > 
>> > These belts and pulleys would be common air compressor parts and can 
>> > easily handle 20HP
>> > 
>> > If you can't get enough reduction in one shot then a chain and 
>> > sprocket to the idler shaft that has the 4 belts on it can be done. 
>> > The there and back method has been used for years. two shafts on 
>> > motor shaft is a small pully and a large pully on bearings on the 
>> > second shaft is one small and one large pully locked togather and 
>> > the shaft is on bearings.
>> > 
>> > so the motor spins the small pully to the large on the idler , 
>> > lets say 5:1 reduction then the belt from the small idler pully 
>> > comes back to the ;arge pully on bearings and is used to drive the wheels
>> > the second 5:1 ratio here gives us 10:1 total
>> 
> OOPS ... 5 to 1 feeding 5 to 1 gives 25 to 1 final ratio. Perhaps we all 
> need reminded to multiply ratios , not to add them, I know I will never forget 
> that after getting it wrong on the test !
> 
LOL, I knew that, that was a heck of a typo. (a calculator won't fix 
that, BTW)
I was playing with an idea to use automatic transmission parts to make a 
gearbox reduction for an induction motor. 3.39:1 then attach the final 
drive of your choice 2.83, 3.75 or 4.11.
>> > 
>> > Just use your imagination! ( Please the calculator is more accurate than 
>> 
> the imagination ! )
> 
>> > 
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > General EVDL support: http://evdl.org/help/
>> > Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
>> > Archives: http://evdl.org/archive/
>> > Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>> 

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