# [EVDL] Anyone using Lithiumate BMS?



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

If anyone is using the Lithiumate BMS, I'd like to get your comments.
Is there a way to display and/or log cell data on a "carputer"?
Any problems with noise glitching up the system?

There are a lot of BMS's on the market. Most of them probably work fine when 
things are "normal".
It's when things are *not* normal that I worry about failure modes, as in 
fire.
I highly doubt most manufacturers know what will happen to their system if 
either reverse voltage
or full pack voltage appears across their cell boards. I suppose I will have 
to buy some and try it for myself.
If they are rendered inoperative that is fine, if they burst into flames not 
so much.

Al

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Al wrote:
> 
> > If anyone is using the Lithiumate BMS, I'd like to get your comments.
> > Is there a way to display and/or log cell data on a "carputer"?
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Sorry for the wall of words, following, but I tried to address each point
raised in this thread.

> Is there a way to display and/or log cell data on a "carputer"?

Off the shelf, the Lithiumate Pro can be used with the KK Display:
http://products.elithion.com/6DS0020P.php
and the iPhone / iPad
http://lithiumate.elithion.com/php/install_serialcomm.php#iPhone_/_iPad

Off the shelf, the Lithiumate Lite comes with a Windows GUI interface:
http://lite.elithion.com/application_.php

A few customers have developed their own user interface, receiving data
using the facilities included in the Lithiumate BMS:
http://lithiumate.elithion.com/php/rs232_specs.php#RS232_dump

> If anyone is using the Lithiumate BMS... 

By the way, there are about 950 Lithiumate BMSs in service today.

> Any problems with noise glitching up the system? 

All distributed BMSs and all digital BMSs are inherently more susceptible to
noise than non-distributed or analog BMSs. However, the Lithiumate BMS
(which is both digital and distributed) has been used successfully in
conjunction with noisy motor drivers and chargers, even in fiberglass
vehicles that offer no ground plane. Yes, there have been problematic
installations, due to installers who didn't use the shielded cable (which
Elithion provides with a kit) or had systems constructed haphazardly (such
that a laptop computers would "blue-screen" from the intense electrical
noise) or ran the communication through a connector that did not carry the
shield through. But, in general, systems that are constructed properly,
using good techniques and following instructions, have operated without any
noise problems.

> There are a lot of BMS's on the market.

You can find them all here:
http://liionbms.com/php/bms_options.php
This is a selector that lets you select the proper BMS for your needs:
http://liionbms.com/php/bms-selector.php

> It's when things are *not* normal that I worry about failure modes, as in
fire. 

There is a sure "fire" way to get into trouble: having a BMS, but not
connecting it to the charger and the motor driver. Doing so prevents the BMS
from doing its job: shutting down the charging and discharging to protect
the battery, your property, and you personally. 

> I highly doubt most manufacturers know what will happen to their system if
either reverse voltage or full pack voltage appears across their cell
boards.

Oh, we do know: it kills electronics.
A BMS that is misconnected, or a mid battery connection that is opened, WILL
destroy electronics (whether the BMS uses cell boards or a single
centralized master). If that happens, with a centralized BMS you have to
replace the entire BMS; with a master/slave BMS you have to replace the
damaged module; with a distributed BMS you only have to replace the one
damaged cell board.

The two most common ways that an installer kills BMS electronics are:
- By misconnecting the BMS (such as by connecting a cell board backwards, or
swapping wires to a centralized BMS): smoke
- By not *completely* disconnecting the battery from ANY load (including a
charger); if you don't, that last connection sees the full pack voltage, and
you're completing a circuit through the BMS: smoke

> if they burst into flames not so much. 

BMSs don't bursts into flames. Their balance resistors generate just a
miniscule amount of power (on the order of 1 / W per cell) and don't start
fires, as some fear.
What can burst into flames is:
- A Li-ion cell that is overcharged because the BMS is not wired to shut off
the charger (that's what happened in the LincVolt)
- Regardless of BMS and regardless of Li-ion: a poor power connection
results is arcing, which ignites nearby flammable materials.

> And when they fail, I want to know if they fail "safe"

The Lithiumate does: should any cell board fail, it interrupts
communications for its bank, and the Master shuts down the system due to a
communications fault.

> The Lite has a USB connection and software to view the system (Windows?)
> but there is not much detail on their web site

Yes, Windows.
I know, there is SO much info in Elithion's Lithiumate manuals, that I times
it's hard to find what you're looking for. Elithion offers free tech support
to all: please take advantage of it, to find the info you're looking for.
Here is the info I believe you're asking about:
http://lite.elithion.com/application_.php
http://lithiumate.elithion.com/php/rs232_specs.php#RS232_dump
Through the USB port, using the DUMP interface, you can get 54 general data
items, plus cell voltage, temperature and resistance for each cell.

> I know some people do not get on with Elithion

Never mind that: I know who you mean, and he's changed his views a lot in
the last year. We're all cool now. He just likes to tease me once in a
while, and I don't mind.

> independent layers of protection is the way to go.

Yes. The Elithion Lithiumotive has 2 BMS in one: a digital BMS and an analog
fault protector. Having said that, it would be even better to have two
physically separate BMSs, without any shared connections.

Davide


-----
Davide Andrea
Elithion 
--
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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Elithion wrote:
> > I know, there is SO much info in Elithion's Lithiumate manuals, that I times
> > it's hard to find what you're looking for. Elithion offers free tech support
> > to all: please take advantage of it, to find the info you're looking for.
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> On 16 Apr 2012 at 10:30, Lee Hart wrote:
> 
> > That means any failure on any board stops the car. It's a "safe"
> > failure; it prevents a fire or other disaster. But it also stops you
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Al <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> > If anyone is using the Lithiumate BMS, I'd like to get your comments.
> 
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Hi Al,

I have deployed many elithion systems, (as well as other BMS systems) and
have never had any major problems. I have also helped others who are having
problems, and have seen a lot of what can go wrong. The elithion boards are
in my opinion very reliable when used correctly. The whole point of a BMS is
to keep cell voltages within reasonable ranges, which protects the boards
from reverse or over voltage situations. Almost all of the elithion problems
that I have seen are due to poor workmanship on the installers part. A while
back, it was required to do a lot of soldering with an installation, and
this gave some people trouble who had glue gun soldering techniques. Now the
kits for prismatic cells have connectors, so this issue is mostly gone. 
Making small connectors with mechanically and electrically good crimps has
also been a challenge in some cases.

I think I can safely say, that on average, the most unreliable part of an
elithion system is the installation, so if you are worried about
reliability, I suggest you focus on doing a well planned and executed
installation with the right tools, techniques, BMS settings, and ways for
the BMS to stop loads and chargers. 

I have seen a lot of failed cell boards due to reverse voltage, over
voltage, sparks, etc. I can't definitively say that I have ever seen a bad
board that I know wasn't caused by installation abuse. I have suspected a
few, but at the end of the day, finding the bad one is easy with the help of
the blinking LED light on each board, and I really like that I can fix a
problem so easily and cheaply. 
I recently blew up a centralized LTC based BMS, and fixing it required SMT
soldering skills and an oscilloscope. I haven't ever had to use more than
basic hand tools to fix an elithion system. 

As far as fires go, the cell boards are so small, with such small wires and
traces, that I don't think you can get enough power flowing even with a
failed component to create much of a problem. Don't insulate you battery box
with tinder, and set up your system so that if a board does go bad, your
charger and load are shut down.

Cheers,

Thomas



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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Davide,

Thank you for (all) that.

I have just one suggestion to improve your already thorough web pages for the Elithion BMS'. Can you include a consistant (ie the same on all the different pages) method of finding and moving to all the pages - like a 'tree menu' system, if you know what I mean? That way when you are reading a page and it refers to something of interest on a different page, there is an easy way of hopping to it.

Also, what is happening with the Lithiumotive - which I notice you did not mention in your reply?

Glad to hear you have patched things up with you-know-who!

Regards, Martin.




> Elithion wrote:
> 
> > Sorry for the wall of words, following, but I tried to address each point
> > raised in this thread.
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Willie McKemie wrote:
> 
> > On Mon, Apr 16, 2012 at 08:48:44AM -0700, Elithion wrote:
> >> I know, there is SO much info in Elithion's Lithiumate manuals, that I t=
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> EVDL Administrator wrote:
> 
> > On 16 Apr 2012 at 10:30, Lee Hart wrote:
> > =
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

On Tue, Apr 17, 2012 at 10:31:57AM +0100, Martin WINLOW wrote:

> Well if you're not using it? perhaps you would like to sell it? Which one is it?

Offers solicited.

It is for 45 cells. I think he calls it "Lithimate". About three 
years old; maybe four. Three banks. As is, but un-used and un-tested. 
Apparently, you can now get support.

Oh! I bought it for 260ah cells. At one time, I looking into trying 
to get cell modules for 160ah cells and the cost was higher than for a 
new system. I don't remember if it is feasible to adapt the modules to 
smaller cells. As is, it will work only on 260ah and probably 200ah 
cells.

-- 
Willie, ONWARD! Through the fog!
http://counter.li.org Linux registered user #228836 since 1995
Debian3.1/GNU/Linux system uptime 28 days 45 min minutes

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Willie McKemie wrote:
> > On Tue, Apr 17, 2012 at 10:31:57AM +0100, Martin WINLOW wrote:
> >
> > > Well if you're not using it? perhaps you would like to sell it? Which one is it?
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Willie McKemie-2 wrote
> 
> I vividly recall buying a Elithion BMS through EVComponents and then 
> being told I would have to pay $500 (or $1000, or some very large 
> fraction of the cost of the BMS) to get even the most basic of 
> questions answered.
> 

Sorry, but I don't remember the conversation that you remember so vividly; I
believe what may have happened is that I mentioned to you how much less we
were making for a system we sold through EV Components (compared to a system
sold directly), and that may be the figure that stuck in your mind. If so, I
am sorry for not being clear.

EV Components bought Lithiumate BMSs at a highly discounted price, by
agreeing to provide tech support to its client; the idea was that its
clients would get free tech support from EV Components (not Elithion).
However, we discovered that clients of resellers did not get satisfactory
support from them. 

So, since the demise of EV Components, Elithion no longer makes such deals
to resellers; instead, it offers free, direct, technician-level support to
all, regardless of where and when the system was bought. Elithion does offer
paid, phone based, engineering-level support, but it starts at $ 50 (not $
500, not $ 1000). But, again, technician-level support is free, as is
engineering-level support other than by phone.

On the same principle, Elithion also introduced the Lithiumate Lite at such
a low price as to make a digital BMS affordable to all EV enthusiasts.
Between Clean Power Auto's MinBMS (simple, analog) and Elithion's Lithiumate
Lite (sophisticated, digital), EV enthusiasts now have two effective yet low
price BMS solutions for their Li-ion battery packs.

Is there a way we can get you motivated to install your Lithiumate BMS? You
have all you need. Our support guys can upgrade your software to the latest
level, and guide you through the whole process.

-----
Davide Andrea
Elithion 
--
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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Martijn Hendriks <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> >>
> >> Hi Al,
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Willie McKemie wrote:
> 
> > On Tue, Apr 17, 2012 at 10:31:57AM +0100, Martin WINLOW wrote:
> > =
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

martinwinlow wrote
> 
> I have just one suggestion to improve your already thorough web pages for
> the Elithion BMS'. Can you include a consistent (i.e.: the same on all
> the different pages) method of finding and moving to all the pages - like
> a 'tree menu' system, if you know what I mean? 
> 

Hello Martin,
We took your suggestion to heart and implemented it (http://elithion.com/);
we also integrated the products into the main site, to get a consistent
navigation throughout. (In the past we placed the product information into
its own, separate site because marketing people complained that the main
site had too many pages. But we'd rather meet your needs than a marketing
expert's wishes.)

If you have any more suggestions, please let us know!
Thanks for your suggestion,
Davide

PS. We are now offering complete battery packs, not just BMSs.



-----
Davide Andrea
Elithion 
--
View this message in context: http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/Anyone-using-Lithiumate-BMS-tp4560590p4617983.html
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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> 
> martinwinlow wrote
>> 
>> I have just one suggestion to improve your already thorough web pages for
>> the Elithion BMS'. Can you include a consistent (i.e.: the same on all
>> the different pages) method of finding and moving to all the pages - like
>> a 'tree menu' system, if you know what I mean? 
>> 
> 
> Hello Martin,
> We took your suggestion to heart and implemented it (http://elithion.com/);
> we also integrated the products into the main site, to get a consistent
> navigation throughout. (In the past we placed the product information into
> its own, separate site because marketing people complained that the main
> site had too many pages. But we'd rather meet your needs than a marketing
> expert's wishes.)
> 
> If you have any more suggestions, please let us know!
> Thanks for your suggestion,
> Davide
> 
> PS. We are now offering complete battery packs, not just BMSs.
> 
> 
> 
> -----
> Davide Andrea


Hi Davide,

I have had a look and can confirm that you have it now as I wanted it. You even have the...



... (whatever it's called) feature which makes it really easy to see where you are in the 'tree' and to go back quickly and logically.

Thanks v much. Another good reason to buy your kit!

Best of luck.

Regards, Martin.




> Elithion wrote:
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