# RIPPERTON Electric track bike



## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

Index:
page:
1-8 trash talkin
9 Magura throttle
11 Kelly controller
12 Life tech cells
13 Motenergys arrive
17 LiPo cells
19 Motenergy ME0913
21-24 magnets
27 first track outing
30 custom rotor
32 ramair
33-34 first round 2011 eFXC Eastern Creek racing & trophy
35 battery design
38-40 water cooling
41 air cooling controllers
42 new higher voltage LiPo pack 177v and controller probs
43 round 2 eFXC 2011 Winton
44 round 3 eFXC 2011 Wakefield
47 blown motors
48 Swingarm pivotectomy
51 fan forced air cooling for controllers
53-54 40s10p LiPo pack
55 141kg weigh in
59 charging process
60 BMS
61 Wakefield 2012 & Boost function
63 damaged LiPo's, 12v power source, weight distribution
63-64 Currie thumb throttle as regen lever
64 Revision A stators
65 YGS LiPo
65 Willowbank eFXC
66 The QuadStack begins
73-74 Electroless Nickel Plating
76-77 YGS LiPo pack 42s10p
77-78 twin Kelly controllers for 1200A
78 QuadStack outrigger bearing and stator temp monitors
79-80 testing, 12.5 second quarter 200kmh. busted synch chain
81 oil slicks, dynos & GSXR radiators.
82 The competition, Varley, quad water pumps, New YGS lipo's Wheelspin video
83-85 first round 2013 eFXC Wakefield
84 more synch chain drama and 154hp dyno run
86 battery case cooling ducts SMP test session
88 pit cooling fan and Caveman V Alien
89 chain lube guard and first crash
90 twin battery packs (quick swap) and eFXC round 2 Queensland
91 cooling fans on the LiPo pack
93 Round 3 eFXC Sydney Motorsport Park and hydraulic regen lever
95 Welded Kilovac
96 2013 Australian eFXC champion !!!!!!!!!
98 Windows 8.1, motor rebuild, Battery and motor rebuild
100 2014 eFXC QLD race report
101/102 Winton 2014 race report
103 New Kelly's
104 Wakefield 2014 race report.
106 Copper Mosfet heat sinks, Brammo
107 SMP 2014 race report.
108 cameras, photos, Kelly single box.
109 the Quadstack gets the CHOP, Mallala race report
110 Mallala, accelerometer readings, got brakes ?
111 The wrong magnets, bloody Chinese. 
112 CNC cutting Neodymium magnets.
113 Round 3 eFXC SMP Sydney 2015
114 Round 4 eFXC QLD 2015 and my first LIPo fire
115 Round 5 eFXC Wakefield 2015
116 Round 6 eFXC Winton 2015
117 Round 7 eFXC SMP Sydney and rain tires
118 Round 7 New rider Brad Swallow and Mugen Shinden Go
119 Phillip Island First Club Race / Mallala round 1 eFXC.
120 battery autopsy and rebuild 42s 12p 8.4kWh pack.
124 42s12p pack track test and blown motor.
125 QLD round 2 eFXC another blown motor.
126 SMP round 3 eFXC Ripperton's first crash.
500,000 views on the 21-09-2016


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

Hi people new guy here.
Im E-verting my 98 Yamaha R1 track bike.
Ive had this bike since 2002 and have done 50k km on road, lost my license and track biked it. got it down to 145kg in ICE format. (worlds lightest R1)
But Ive become thoroughly disgusted with all things combustion hence the E-vert.
This project has very specific design criteria the most interesting of which is it only has to run for 20 minutes.
Top speed 280kmh
Built weight 110kg
Motor is a Mars Electric Double Stack PMAC ME0913
which doesnt come on the market untill Feb 14 2010
Battery is A123 26650 solderless framing 120v 13.8Ah 720 pA
Controller is a Kelly 120v 600A.
Heres a couple of shots of the frame reinforcment.
3D model of motor and bat stack


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

Hey come on some one say something

motor dims


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## genawin (Oct 1, 2008)

Hello ,please could you tell us where you got the information about the Mars , was it direct from John, do you know it's specifications ?


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

genawin said:


> Hello ,please could you tell us where you got the information about the Mars , was it direct from John, do you know it's specifications ?


Yes Ive been pestering Mr Fiorenza for over year since I found out he was modifying the standard AC motor. Hes just added a second set of windings on the other side of the rotor. They are timed together
I only found out about it because I was hell bent on using an AC motor in my bike and was nosey enough to ask him if he had anything better than the 3001. Zero ebikes have also tested this motor
He will ship a sample to you. Hes just quoted $550 plus shipping to me this morning.
John has tested at 72v 400A but dont have figures.
I look at a motor as just a transmission. it will put out 85% of whatever you put into it as long as it doesnt melt. The more you can cool it the more amps it will handle granted the shaft and keyways dont break.
The real motor is the battery and controller.
Im developing a ram air cooling system for my R1. The motor will have aluminium ducts around either end and it will snort large volumes of kinetic wind.


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## ev_nred (Sep 23, 2009)

RIPPERTON said:


> Hi people new guy here.
> Im E-verting my 98 Yamaha R1 track bike.
> Ive had this bike since 2002 and have done 50k km on road, lost my license and track biked it. got it down to 145kg in ICE format. (worlds lightest R1)
> But Ive become thoroughly disgusted with all thing combustion hence the E-vert.
> ...


this bike is going to be one hell of a ride am guessing it could even give the "killacycle" a run for its money or I am I carzy!?! oh and how much will it cost to build!


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

ev_nred said:


> how much will it cost to build!


Motor $600
Controller $1600
240 x A123 $1680
end frames $100
Toothed drive belt and pullies $300
2x 60v Battery chargers $1200
$5400 plus

Heres a cross section of the Double Stack with my plans to improve the air flow


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

ev_nred said:


> this bike is going to be one hell of a ride am guessing it could even give the "killacycle" a run for its money or I am I carzy!?!


Yes, you are "carzy". It's nothing close to the Killacycle, look up the specs. That Kelly 600 amp controller is probably not going to be anything spectacular, especially compared to the Zilla 2000 amp High Voltage the Killacycle uses. http://www.killacycle.com/about/


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## ev_nred (Sep 23, 2009)

RIPPERTON said:


> Motor $600
> Converter $1600
> 240 x A123 $1680
> end frames $100
> ...


 thanks how much more money will someone have to put in to make it road worthy


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## ev_nred (Sep 23, 2009)

JRP3 said:


> Yes, you are "carzy". It's nothing close to the Killacycle, look up the specs. That Kelly 600 amp controller is probably not going to be anything spectacular, especially compared to the Zilla 2000 amp High Voltage the Killacycle uses. http://www.killacycle.com/about/


yeah it may not be able to win but when I say a run for it money i mean it well still not be as easy as other diy bikes but thanks for the specs i'll take a look


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## RoughRider (Aug 14, 2008)

RIPPERTON said:


> Hi people new guy here.
> Im E-verting my 98 Yamaha R1 track bike.
> Ive had this bike since 2002 and have done 50k km on road, lost my license and track biked it. got it down to 145kg in ICE format. (worlds lightest R1)
> But Ive become thoroughly disgusted with all thing combustion hence the E-vert.
> ...


SOOO...you want a topspeed of 280km/h with a single mars motor???
do i get this right?

take a look at the new A123 15Ah cells....i think it a better choice than the 26650...


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

RoughRider said:


> SOOO...you want a topspeed of 280km/h with a single mars motor???
> do i get this right?
> 
> take a look at the new A123 15Ah cells....i think it a better choice than the 26650...


Hey I can dream.
Is that the 32113 you mean.
going to be too heavy to get 120v and also the Peak Amps that I want.

Mock up time
the red stripe on the swing arm is the gap I have to cut to get the Tbelt in. A block is going to be bolted back in across the gap inside the RHS 
Synchroflex GenIII AT10 25mm wide 10900N tensile strength.


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## RoughRider (Aug 14, 2008)

RIPPERTON said:


> Hey I can dream.
> Is that the 32113 you mean.
> going to be too heavy to get 120v and also the Peak Amps that I want.
> 
> ...


DREAMS are not bad....BUT you have to be realistic, when you start to build something...

the original R1 motor with 150HP cant brinf the R1 to REAL 280km/h topspeed...

with this smal mars motor you get around 120km/h max.

no, i am talking about the 32113...i am talking about this cells:

http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=14832


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## RoughRider (Aug 14, 2008)

and if you want to build a REAL good racebike, than take a look at this one:

http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=15346&start=0

double Agni95 motor brings you around 60kW of peakpower....


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

Sure but the original R1 weighed 190kg with fuel, mine will weigh 110kg.
Plus dont forget the ME0193 IS 2 motors in one.

The Mavizen is a design fail. Did you know Agni's are cast iron !! So are Perms
too heavy and you literally cant crash it.
If you lay that thing on its side you are up for a couple of hundred dollars in new brushes and frames. If you crash at speed you will destroy at least one motor completely.
My bike will be like a 250cc GP bike literally
At 110kg I will ride past any bike in a corner except for a 125ccGP bike.
It will exceed 200 no problems.


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

RoughRider said:


> and if you want to build a REAL good racebike, than take a look at this one:
> 
> http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=15346&start=0
> 
> double Agni95 motor brings you around 60kW of peakpower....



Its not the motors that bring you the power its the battery and controller.
Beside 120v 600Amps = 72kW


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## RoughRider (Aug 14, 2008)

RIPPERTON said:


> Its not the motors that bring you the power its the battery and controller.
> Beside 120v 600Amps = 72kW


man you are a DREAMER...

110kg??? your battery ALONE will be around 50kg...with BMS, wires, box and so on...

what is the weight of the naked R1...as it is on the pictures?? another 50kg?

TOPSPEED has not much to do with the weigh of a vehicle...

acceleration has more to do with the weight of a vehicle...

the Agni95 weight only 11kg and has 30kW peakpower...so wich one is heavier?? agni or mars? 

well the mavizen is a design fail??? well such a motorcycle won the last years TTXGP...google it if you dont know...

200km/h??? NO WAY...

man, wake up and stop dreaming...


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## RoughRider (Aug 14, 2008)

http://plugbike.com/2010/01/20/epo-bike-first-confirmed-fim-epower-entry/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+Plugbike+%28PlugBike.com%29&utm_content=Yahoo!+Mail


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

Battery weighes 20kg
rolling chassis weighes 63kg (Dymag Carbon Wheels)
motor, mounts, cooling ducts 16kg
controller 3.5kg..................102.5

1 Mars weighes 14kg
1 Agni weighes 11kg
2 Agni's weigh 22kg

I cant understand how that RS125 weighes 115kg
He sure did something wrong

??? wake up and stop dreaming ???

How dare you tell me to wake up !!!!!
were all in the same boat here mate, no need to be rude


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

RoughRider said:


> well the mavizen is a design fail??? well such a motorcycle won the last years TTXGP...google it if you dont know...


 
They won because they didnt crash.
If they had crashed they would have DNFed, thats a certainty.
Thats why its a design fail because it doesnt entail crash protection.
Who the hell goes racing thinking they wont crash. 
Crashing happens to everyone...Rossi......Stoner ect


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## Jozzer (Mar 29, 2009)

Build it and see what you get. Your talking to people with experience doing just that, either listen to them, or go and make some experiments to see for yourself. They are only trying to help!

I've tried MARS motors and Agni's back to bak, you'd need 3 mars motors to match 2 Agni's, and you'd still be short on power (and much much heavier).

20KG of LifePo4 battery's will get you about 2kw/h or less, enough for 20 miles range at less than 30mph, or around 10 miles at 60mph (about the top speed for one MARS motor IMO).
The RS125 had twice this amount of batts, hence the extra few KG's..


Lots of bikes didnt crash (in fact, only one crashed at all, and not on the main race day), you seem intent on disregarding any evidence...
Any bike that crashes will not finish, and any bike that crashes at speed damages more than a £750 motor (besides, ever heard of crash bars?).
The motors being ventilated like that allows for more power to be used continuously, best location for them.

Good luck, hope you learn from your efforts!


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

What kind of Mars motors did you test ?
3001 ?

Sure I may not have enough battery, easy to fix that one and still come in under what the bike used to weigh (145kg) Need to have 40km range

Sure Ive heard of crash bars but neither the Mavizen or the Agni entry had them.
You can bring the motor to the air or you can do the intelligent thing and bring the air to the motor.


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## RoughRider (Aug 14, 2008)

RIPPERTON said:


> They won because they didnt crash.
> If they had crashed they wound have DNFed, thats a certainty.
> Thats why its a design fail because it doesnt entail crash protection.
> Who the hell goes racing thinking they wont crash.
> Crashing happens to everyone...Rossi......Stoner ect


hey, i am not rude...i am just realistic...and you should be too...

yeah, when rossi crashes...he can go on racing...sure...
just brake the shifter and the race is over...
brake the handlebar and race is over...
crash means RACE IS OVER...

another think is: you write 120V x 600A = 72kW
yes, thats right...when the world would be perfect...
1. have you ever heard about voltagedrop at high C-load?? NO??? google it...
600A / 13,8Ah = thats 43C load 
the voltage would be under 2,5V per cell at that load....
now calculate again...

2. So you wanna put 120V and 600A at that mars motor? i dont belive it can handle it...


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

RoughRider said:


> hey, i am not rude...i am just realistic...and you should be too...
> 
> yeah, when rossi crashes...he can go on racing...sure...
> just brake the shifter and the race is over...
> ...



Trust me Ive heard rude before, it was just like what you said.

You guys obviously havnt done a lot of racing. A crash does NOT mean race over...unless you are on a Mavizen or a IOM Agni. Good race bike design has crash protection all over it. Its called crashability.


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

I should have said in my first post that this is my first real Ebike construction and thus am open to constructive critisism, even a helping hand but definately NOT smart alecky rudeness.
but on the other hand am a professional Mechanical Designer Mechanic and Inventor. I have been riding racing and rebuild bikes since I was 7.
We will definately be learning from each other.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

The Controller will not give you 600 amp continuously, maybe for a few seconds. Voltage sag under load might take you to 90 volts or so. Controller and motor efficiency might be around 85%, less under high load. I'd guess you'll have less than 60 HP out of the motor. Will that be enough to meet your goals?


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## Evilsizer (Jan 25, 2010)

JRP3 said:


> The Controller will not give you 600 amp continuously, maybe for a few seconds. Voltage sag under load might take you to 90 volts or so. Controller and motor efficiency might be around 85%, less under high load. I'd guess you'll have less than 60 HP out of the motor. Will that be enough to meet your goals?


if you can increase current can you increase the power of the motor for the same voltage? im only asking cause it might seem practical here to include a SuperCap bank. If you figure how long the controller can supply 600amps. say you match that time at 600amps with a bank of SuperCaps. would you not have say 1200 amps on tap for a short burst of increase power?


***
i only have basic electrical knowledge but have built some DIY-Audio amps. my questions might seem out of place but im still trying to learn and figure things out about EV motors and systems.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Two problems. First,the caps still have to push their power through the controller, and it's the controller that's limiting the amperage. Second, even bypassing the controller, caps just don't hold enough energy, you might get a split second of power from a cap bank that would fit on a bike and you'd be better served with more batteries in the same space. Some people have used a battery bank that could be switched directly to the motor bypassing the controller, but the proper solution is to just use a higher power controller.


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## RoughRider (Aug 14, 2008)

Note from Admin - An infraction was given for flaming. We don't tolerate that. This is the only warning I will give.


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## Evilsizer (Jan 25, 2010)

JRP3 said:


> Two problems. First,the caps still have to push their power through the controller, and it's the controller that's limiting the amperage. Second, even bypassing the controller, caps just don't hold enough energy, you might get a split second of power from a cap bank that would fit on a bike and you'd be better served with more batteries in the same space. Some people have used a battery bank that could be switched directly to the motor bypassing the controller, but the proper solution is to just use a higher power controller.


but wouldnt the controller rob some voltage/current. then if you just bypassed it when needed? to me it just seems logical when needed a more direct connection to the supply would be best. i just see the controller as a point of failure or robbing some energy from the transfer from point to point.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Well your bypass mechanism is also a point of failure, but yes you would avoid some losses when bypassing the controller. That still does not address the fact that caps won't do much for you and you'd be better off with more batteries. None of the major NEDRA guys use caps or bypass the controller.


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## RoughRider (Aug 14, 2008)

JRP3 said:


> Well your bypass mechanism is also a point of failure, but yes you would avoid some losses when bypassing the controller. That still does not address the fact that caps won't do much for you and you'd be better off with more batteries. None of the major NEDRA guys use caps or bypass the controller.


how do you want to bypass the controller? direct way from the caps to the motor? and how do you want to controll the curent coming out of the caps?

thats what the controller does...

so, i think its not gonna work...


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

When the controller is at full on it's essentially not controlling anything, so bypassing it gives you the same effect, without the losses inside the controller. You could have a contactor that is activated at full throttle switching the pack directly to the motor. Some people have done this and it does work. I don't recommend it and think a properly sized controller is the way to go, but it can work.


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## Evilsizer (Jan 25, 2010)

how many controllers can supply 600+ amps constant?


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## RoughRider (Aug 14, 2008)

Evilsizer said:


> how many controllers can supply 600+ amps constant?


http://www.kellycontroller.com/shop/

@JRP3
at full on the controller is stil limiting the current...it gives the max. Amps to the motor

when you put the caps direct to the motor, isnt it like you make a short circuit??

i mean, you can not controll how much Amps are going to the motor...


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## Evilsizer (Jan 25, 2010)

RoughRider said:


> when you put the caps direct to the motor, isnt it like you make a short circuit??
> 
> i mean, you can not controll how much Amps are going to the motor...


it would be a short circuit for the caps, causing the discharge to the motor. 

If sized right you wouldnt need to worry about the amount of current being supplied to the motor. the cap bank would be able to supply the current alot faster then a controller or battery bank can/could. 

the interesting part with Supercaps if you go over specs. the larger the farad the lower the ESR of the cap. in most/all cases much lower then low ESR caps of the same farad(this is from the few i have checked out on digikey).


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

On a race track built weight does effect top speed because on the main straight which is the only place you will see anything close to top speed, the bike is constantly accelerating ie actually never reaching terminal velocity. And as anyone knows built weight has a drastic effect on acceleration. 
So on a track like Eastern Creek a bike that weighes 110kg and has 100hp will get down the straight faster than a bike that weighes 160kg and has 100hp.
Do you understand the fact the a race bike is constantly accelerating


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

JRP3 said:


> When the controller is at full on it's essentially not controlling anything, so bypassing it gives you the same effect, without the losses inside the controller. You could have a contactor that is activated at full throttle switching the pack directly to the motor. Some people have done this and it does work. I don't recommend it and think a properly sized controller is the way to go, but it can work.


That works on DC motors
Im brushless


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

120v 600A $1400 3.5kg
http://www.newkellycontroller.com/product_info.php?cPath=23_43&products_id=571

144v 700A $2000 8.5kg

http://www.newkellycontroller.com/product_info.php?cPath=23_56&products_id=741


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## ev_nred (Sep 23, 2009)

even if it does not reach 280 kmh it is still way better then anything I have seen on this site. good luck whit the bike and have you started the conversion 
thanks


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

Thanks Red

can anyone guess what would happen if I connected that 144v 700A controller up to the ME0913.
Im very tempted 

I like the seperate cap box, great for motorcycles.


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## RoughRider (Aug 14, 2008)

ev_nred said:


> even if it does not reach 280 kmh it is still way better then anything I have seen on this site. good luck whit the bike and have you started the conversion
> thanks


if this "build" is the best you have seen so far...than you haven seen nothing before...

all i see is a naked frame and some unrealistic dreams...

here is the ducati from jozzer...THATs a REAL build...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9QRBmHOPl70&feature=related

you can watch other movies from his builds...


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## kek_63 (Apr 20, 2008)

RIPPERTON said:


> Thanks Red
> 
> can anyone guess what would happen if I connected that 144v 700A controller up to the ME0913.
> Im very tempted


 
We don't need to guess - you WOULD fry that motor.

Good luck with your project, but I think that you should research a little more and try to set some realistic goals. Come check out the forum at ELmoto.net - electric motorcycles is what we're all about.

Keith


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

RoughRider said:


> if this "build" is the best you have seen so far...than you haven seen nothing before...
> 
> all i see is a naked frame and some unrealistic dreams...
> 
> ...


That bike is seriously fast..... but
Could have easily put the outboard motor up above the inboard motor and chained down to it.
regained you center of balance (avoid the Vespa effect) and improve your crashability.


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## frodus (Apr 12, 2008)

This is a fun thread isn't it...... 

Ripperton,

Do you have the actual specs on that Mars motor? weight, voltage, continuous power, peak power, torque, efficiency? Is there a torque curve? Weight?



here's a little tip:
Try not to be so arrogant.....we're trying to help you avoid some of the obvious pitfalls that most noobs fall into. You're new here with little to no experience with EV's. We've built our vehicles, we've tested batteries, motors, controllers, BMS systems. What experience with these EV systems do you have? I'm having a difficult time trying to figure out your background (besides being a tinkerer and mechanic).



You have a few problems:
- That motor looks too small to put out enough HP(kW) to propel that bike much past 160kph. I see no specs on the motor. Doesn't look like it'l do the power you seem to think it will.

- At 10C discharge, the A123 cells fall to nearly 2.7V (http://www.zeva.com.au/tech/LiFePO4.php)

- For speeds over 100mph/160kph, you'll probably need at least 30hp continuous. Thats 22kw (at the very least. the agni bike had 2 motors going at least 40kw continuous combined). Ignoring losses for the sake of simplicity. Lets say you start at 120V, that'd be somewhere around 200A continuous. 200A continuous with a 6p pack, is ~33A each cell, which is ~15C, which would cause the voltage to drop to around 100V.. so its actually likely that you'd need more like 220A or 16C from each cell to get 22kw.

-10C on A123's would give you.... close to 6.5 minutes or runtime. 15C would give even less than that. (http://www.zeva.com.au/tech/LiFePO4.php)

- Again, without knowing specs its hard to tell, but do you know how many volts that motor is rated for? You can't just shove voltage at an AC (or DC) motor. The coils are rated for a certain voltage. You said he tested at 72V 400A.... it doesn't sound like its even MADE for 120V. Using a controller that has a higher rating than the motor is likely going to damage the motor.

- your weight seems to be in line with the stuff you're putting into it, but the performance will not be what you expect. You won't have the runtime you think you will, you won't have the HP you think you will and you won't have the top speed that you seem to think you'll reach.

- you haven't mentioned the RPM of that motor, or what gearing you'll be using. To get that top speed, you'll most likely require a transmission. Direct drive has RPM limitations related directly to the motor. at 174mph (280kph), thats 2.9miles/minute, 15312ft/minute and 2392 rear tire RPM (using the R1 170/50 r17 tires to calculate circumference).... so lets say the motor can theoretically hit 6krpm, its peak HP may only be at 4krpm, and you'll need peak HP to hit that top speed.... ignoring that, lets say 6000motor RPM = 2392 wheel RPM = 280kph.... thats a 2.5:1 gear ratio. That thing is going to suck for acceleration. Throw a 2-3 speed transmission in there, and you're still limited by HP.

- To push the power levels you want, you'll need to cool the batteries, your "kelly" controller will overheat if you don't cool that actively, and your motor will need forced air cooling.

- caps will only act as a buffer, not very well suited for EV Energy storage.


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## ev_nred (Sep 23, 2009)

frodus said:


> This is a fun thread isn't it......
> 
> Ripperton,
> 
> ...


just questione form a noob: can you not wire a fan to the battaryes to cool the motor? thanks


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## frodus (Apr 12, 2008)

yes you can, but I didn't see any mention of forced air cooling, and in this case, it would be needed. Just ducting air to the motor might not be sufficient.


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

Ram Air
3.9km in 1min 40 seconds = 176kmh avg

So at 10c my 120v pack will put out 108v
hardly seems that would fry the motor


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## frodus (Apr 12, 2008)

> Ram Air


ram air works best at high speeds, but when you're using the motor at low RPM's in the turns, you'll have minimal cooling. I'd put a high speed fan to ensure cooling.



> 3.9km in 1min 40 seconds = 176kmh avg


ok, so 176kmh avg, but you still won't have a peak speed over 200kph.





> So at 10c my 120v pack will put out 108v


thats at 10C, you're building the pack as if it could put out 15C or more. 




> hardly seems that would fry the motor


If the windings are made for 72V, putting more voltage through them will start to stress them, and at higher currents, that means more power going to the motor, more losses, more heat.... if the motor isn't made to take that heat, it might just fail.

Get me the specs on the motor and I could tell you.... I'll go ahead and email John and ask him.....


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

The thing is how often will the controller be putting out over 90v.
Is controller voltage output relevant to throttle postion or motor rpm


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

The motor probly wont have a fan anymore, it will cause an imbalance in the air flow and if you want cornering speed, this is me on my 150kg CBR1000RR

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wPDusUA6RQs


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## frodus (Apr 12, 2008)

RIPPERTON said:


> The thing is how often will the controller be putting out over 90v.
> Is controller voltage output relevant to throttle postion or motor rpm


you're using a brushless motor controller though, right?

You're probably thinking DC motors, where the speed is based on voltage. On an AC motor, the frequency of the AC waveform controls the speed. AC controllers also have a volts/hertz ratio so as RPM increases voltage does too, but If I remember correctly, the motor gets full voltage fairly quickly as they spin up.


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## frodus (Apr 12, 2008)

> The motor probly wont have a fan anymore, it will cause an imbalance in the air flow and if you want cornering speed


I don't think that putting a fan inside directing air towards the motor is going to make any sort of difference in the airflow of the bike. Take it from low on the bike and direct upwards into the motor.


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## ev_nred (Sep 23, 2009)

frodus said:


> I don't think that putting a fan inside directing air towards the motor is going to make any sort of difference in the airflow of the bike. Take it from low on the bike and direct upwards into the motor.


 thanks you for the info!


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## RoughRider (Aug 14, 2008)

@frodus
post the specs of the motor when you have them...

would you ask, if the motor can handle more than 72V??


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## frodus (Apr 12, 2008)

Ripperton started another thread about it here:
http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showthread.php?t=41426&highlight=mars+me0913


I found out:
12-15hp @160-180A continuous
maybe 30HP @450A peak for a couple minutes.
80 volts MAXIMUM
5000RPM MAXIMUM

ripperton found out:
8 poles 8 magnets.
22.2mm drive shaft with 3/16 keyway


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

So looks like I have to make my own motor too


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

Actually
going to ask John if he can wind that frame for 120v and as many amps as the magnets can handle.
all assuming it will run with a much better cooling sytem than the existing fan, ie the ram air concept
what do you think ?


----------



## frodus (Apr 12, 2008)

my thoughts:
do the physics calculations on the bike BEFORE you even start chosing parts.... you're doing this a bit backwards. Don't chose parts and then design the bike..... design the bike around certain requirements, then chose parts that meet those design requirements.

You haven't even calculated how much power it takes to accelerate a bike the way you want, or to hit the top speed you want. 

You wouldn't ride a motorcycle around a track backwards would you? Don't design the bike in reverse order.


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

Regen question
If I accelerate from 0 to 100kmh. what percentage of the energy that I spent accelerating can I recover by decellerating back to a stop using only regen brake. ?


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## frodus (Apr 12, 2008)

don't count on regen on a racebike.... most, if not all of your braking will be on the front tire. If you try to brake heavily on the rear, it will lockup and your back end will slide out. You might only be able to set the regen level to about 5% out of 100% for the controller. Then you take motor inefficiency, multiply that by battery charge inefficiency..... you might get a 1-2%, maybe less. Its really something you'll have to play with on an electric bike.... i.e. you'll need to experement with a full working system.


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

frodus said:


> If you try to brake heavily on the rear, it will lockup and your back end will slide out.


 
Thats what I want
Did you watch the CBR vid ? on the out lap going into the hairpin T9 there is a little brake slide. Brake sliding will be much more controllable with a lever on the left handle bar plus will be able to brake slide on both left and right corner entry. With a foot pedal its more difficult on right handers than on left handers, not good.

But the previous question referes to a hypothetical or commuter situation where all braking apart from emergency is done with rear wheel (99%)


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## Jozzer (Mar 29, 2009)

I usually log regen at between 7 and 15% with the Agni setup, but as Frodus say's, with such a small pack it will not charge efficiently. 
At a racetrack you will always be using as much power as possible to acellerate, and limited time to plan sensible regen braking.

For such a small pack, the advantage of regen is largly lost, adding the 10% extra battery's needed to compensate would add little weight/cost.
On a 10kw/h TT race pack, it could make a valuable difference IF implimented correctly.

The Kelly regen function feels good, much nicer than disk brake, I'd not be without it now, and have all but forgotton where the rear brake pedal is!


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## frodus (Apr 12, 2008)

Ripperton...... still, you're sliding, so its not actually converting the sliding force into rotational force to the wheel/chain/motor.... might give you a few more percent, but I wouldn't count on it being more than 5-10%..... but again, you'll have to try.

Design the pack for the energy you need, not based on estimated regen. That way, if you get sensible regen out of the motor/controller combo and it recharges the batteries for you, you win again.


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

Jozzer said:


> The Kelly regen function feels good, much nicer than disk brake, I'd not be without it now, and have all but forgotton where the rear brake pedal is!


Thats what I like to hear !

But what bike is this on Joz. I thought DC motors wernt so good on regen


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## Jozzer (Mar 29, 2009)

Cool, as long as you dont expect vast energy returns from it at the track you wont be dissapointed!

Though you still need to find a better motor choice for the desired results


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

Jozzer said:


> Cool, as long as you dont expect vast energy returns from it at the track you wont be dissapointed!
> 
> Though you still need to find a better motor choice for the desired results


I think regen on a race bike will be more for a more usable rear brake than energy recouperation. Like you said the Kelly regen feels good.  Thats the feature of regen that I want. Once I convince ride day officials my regen works better than a friction brake I will remove the friction brake all together.
Yes I am dissappointed about the Mars, Ive been betting on that motor for over a year now. I just absolutely want an AC motor


----------



## frodus (Apr 12, 2008)

Why do you think you NEED to have an AC motor?


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

frodus said:


> Why do you think you NEED to have an AC motor?


Virtually aesthetic reasons really.
No brushes. (I hate friction)
nice sound 
and as far as the Mars was concerned it was miles cheaper.
The ME0913 could be landed in Sydney for $600US
Plus all the top DC motor are cast iron (cant stand cast iron, not allowed on a race bike)

Whats a full size Agni worth ?


----------



## frodus (Apr 12, 2008)

I think under $1500 USD..... 

The agni is lighter, more efficient, can be run with regen just like the mars, its smaller, its got fairly good cooling and higher peak power and continuous power. Plus, with the Mars, you are limited to less controller choices.... with Agni, you can use pretty much any series/PMDC motor controller.


I'm not arguing, just stating the differences, I actually have an AC motor I'm putting in my bike.....


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

frodus said:


> I think under $1500 USD.....
> 
> The agni is lighter, more efficient, can be run with regen just like the mars, its smaller, its got fairly good cooling and higher peak power and continuous power. Plus, with the Mars, you are limited to less controller choices.... with Agni, you can use pretty much any series/PMDC motor controller.
> 
> ...


Yeah but its not a Mars is it.

Going through the Kelly site I think theres actually more brushless controllers than DC or at least the same


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

RIPPERTON said:


> Going through the Kelly site I think theres actually more brushless controllers than DC or at least the same


I think he means from all manufacturers. There are more series brushed DC controllers available at higher power. Curtis, Zilla, Soliton1, Raptor, Electrocraft, NetGain, Logisystems, bunch of others.


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## frodus (Apr 12, 2008)

RIPPERTON said:


> Yeah but its not a Mars is it.
> 
> Going through the Kelly site I think theres actually more brushless controllers than DC or at least the same


Not a mars, no, because it doesn't have the power I need.

The two controller manufacturers (mainstream) that I know of are Sevcon and Kelly, thats why I said your choices are slim.


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

Joz
If you had your regen brake controlled through a pot and lever on the handle bar, could you lock the rear wheel with it.
I mean is it strong enough.


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## frodus (Apr 12, 2008)

With pretty much any motor, if you put a large enough electrical load on the motor in regen mode, it can and will lock up the rotor. So if you set it too high, and your batteries are low, it could lock up the wheel.


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

Variable KERS on the left bar. When i pull this lever in a bit I get engine brake and pull it a bit further for rear brake. If you dont touch it you have no engine brake at all (angel gear) On track it doesnt mean much in terms of energy recuperation but regen brakes are known to have better feel than friction brakes. Bring on the brake slides

Just behind the steering head is a cable operated throttle potentiometer from a Ford Falcon.

Hold the green button down for reverse ! yer only track bike in the Australia with reverse gear :lmao:
red button is for controller precharge.


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

Swingarm gap for Tbelt.


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

Almost got a hardon when I took these pullys out of the box.
The belt is back ordered from Germany, 25mm wide.
Definitely will get a hardon when that arrives.....its RED 

rear pully is 66 tooth and might just make that out of Nylon or Acetal.


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

Whats in a Magura you might ask ?
lots of gears and things
I hope the Kelly converter lets me adjust the amount of turn (ohms) I need to get full amps (throttle).
This will let me use the quick pull mod required for racing.
I reduced the turn from 70 degrees to 60 degrees by fitting a screw for a WOT stopper.

Big thanks to Carl at EV Drives for the AllTrax Ex-Ray (and the throttles)
I freekin love my Ex-Ray. it does every thing and is so small. payed $155US for a self made kit without bolts (less shipping).
its a bit far away here on the fairing stay, might bring it back to the triple so I can keep an eye on motor temp.

12v battery for controller and Ex-Ray


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Carl is a good guy and helped me out on my AMPhibian build. That EX-Ray looks nice, but I have to say that's a lot of money for what is basically an over sized bicycle computer, which is what I used on the AMPhibian. A $15 bike unit does the same thing except for motor temp, and you could get a cheap temp unit for that.


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## frodus (Apr 12, 2008)

I saw the ex-ray and thought, its just a motorcycle replacement computer for stuff like dirtbikes.... Its nice though.

As far as the throttle, I think the kelly needs a 0-100% on the throttle, so only going 60 degrees wouldn't allow that extra 100%. I'm not sure (maybe ask others), but I don't think the software allows for "throttle mapping" like you're looking for. 

let us know the results.


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

I think the Kelly might have throttle mapping
heres a random screenshot of the controller config program they put in demo help and it looks like throttle mapping but not sure

http://www.newkellycontroller.com/HPKBLI Help.php

the pot in the magura is weird
it turns 270 degrees
only the first 145 degrees gives a variation in reading
the grip turns 70 degrees which turns the pot about 110 degrees.
One of the throttles Ive modded has a variation from 5.35 kohms to 1.03 kohms. The maguras have a super light pull and snap back cleanly

the regen pots are second hand and they go from 4.2 to 0.3 kohms.
thing I like about the ford pots is they are sprung and together with the spring in the mountain bike brake lever it returns nicely.

I think the Ex-Ray is made in USA and was blown away because I didnt have to fix it first before using it which is always what you have to do if you buy something made in China.


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

Ex-Ray goes in on the top triple but slightly below it for crash protection.
perfectly visible and on a cnc 2mm alu frame sturdy enough to push the buttons without flexing.

speed pickup on the back wheel for easy motor rpm conversion.


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## Jozzer (Mar 29, 2009)

You can indeed set the start point and finish of the kelly throttle input, however new Kelly's don't like pot throttles. They operate much more smoothly on Hall effect 0-5v throttles I have found..


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## frodus (Apr 12, 2008)

Jozzer, does the throttle still need to rotate from 0-100%? or does it effectively shorten the range of movement needed to go 0-100% power?


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

frodus said:


> Jozzer, does the throttle still need to rotate from 0-100%? or does it effectively shorten the range of movement needed to go 0-100% power?


Travis dont forget an unmodified Magura only uses 110 degrees of its 145 degrees of readable variation


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## frodus (Apr 12, 2008)

You assume that 0-100% rotation on the pot is 0-5k....

The magura I had a while back, I tested, 0-100% twist on the grip was 0-5k. After taking it apart and testing, the last part of actual rotation on that pot didn't seem to do anything, it would just stay at 5k. 

Test it with a multimeter set to ohms.


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## Jozzer (Mar 29, 2009)

Basically, if you set the top end to 80% and the bottom to 20%, then you only need to see 1-4v from the throttle. So no you dont need full operational range with a Hall effect throttle.

Magura is POT throttle however...


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## frodus (Apr 12, 2008)

Ahh, thats good to know, its essentially shortening the range on a hall throttle.

What throttle do you use for Hall Effect Jozzer?


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## Jozzer (Mar 29, 2009)

Yes indeed, a very useful feature.

The Kelly throttles work well enough, but are a poor fit and shape (too short a body, and convex shape make it uncomfortable). They are nice and cheap though.

We make our own for TTX02, we may make these available to the EVMotorcycle world shortly..

Steve


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

Yes the belt did have the predicted effects and it looks fantastic.
have ordered the controller, should be here end of week ($2500)
the belt weighes about 350gr and a 520 race chain weighes 2.2kg !!


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

Designing rear pully

Ive had 9 goes at getting the pitch of the teeth right so the belt wouldnt climb up over them. ended up being 9.94mm and with the help of parametric geometry (Autodesk Inventor) the product of that dimension is the diameter of the pully (228mm).
lining up the belt over 1:1 scale printouts.
The first go I made in wood was way off. climbed up in quarter of a turn.

3D of layered assembly. Will be made out of white Nylon 10mm.


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

Cuttin it up on my dodgy Chinese router

Thats a wrap.


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## gor (Nov 25, 2009)

P., considering suspension travel, would belt perform ok? (jumping over the teeth, etc) many don't trust them


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

its not a motocross bike. Im not going to worry about jumping.
I will run an unsprung idler just after the front pully to increase wrap and traction as it will need it most there.


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## ev_nred (Sep 23, 2009)

Looking good so far your doing an Amazing job keep up the good work. Any guesse on when the bike well be finshed?

All the best,
ev_nred


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## ev_nred (Sep 23, 2009)

Oh and what motors are you going to use you can't still be thinking about the mars I mean even a noob like me knows thta 2 of those motors will give you a top speed of 140kmh whice still is not bad but... The faster the moer fun it is to race


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

ev_nred said:


> Oh and what motors are you going to use you can't still be thinking about the mars I mean even a noob like me knows thta 2 of those motors will give you a top speed of 140kmh whice still is not bad but... The faster the moer fun it is to race


This project is flying together faster than some other simpler projects Ive had. Even money is coming along, I should be testing this in July.

Yes of course the ME0913 is the only motor by far that will suit this bike.
Your only a noob in so much as you havent seen the true potential of this motor even though Ive already pointed out that the cooling system is inadequate for it. I wouldnt be surprised if the fan was the same part of the 3001.
As long as this motor gets massive air it will handle what Im throwing at it.
Youve probly already figured out what controller Im using and yes it does have the potential to turn my whole workshop into a black hole if the motor is not cooled properly.
You are also still in the habit of thinking the motor is where the power comes from.
Wrong The power comes from the battery / controller
The motor is the transmission, Ive already explained this. It will turn 15% of whatever it gets into heat and spit the other 85% out at the drive wheel. All I have to do is remove that heat out of the windings and make sure the windings arnt arcing or cross firing under full voltage.

Im a Mechanical Designer NOT an engineer.
An engineer reads the spec sheet and pushes the buttons on his calculator and thats it.
A designer doesnt do math. He first evaluates the design and sees where it needs to be improved and then improves the design.
Everything has to be modified.


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

From Mind to Matter.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Neat, but two questions:
1. Is that really strong enough?
2. I wonder if the natural slipperiness of the material might make the belt more prone to slipping over the teeth?


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## ev_nred (Sep 23, 2009)

RIPPERTON said:


> This project is flying together faster than some other simpler projects Ive had. Even money is coming along, I should be testing this in July.
> 
> Yes of course the ME0913 is the only motor by far that will suit this bike.
> Your only a noob in so much as you havent seen the true potential of this motor even though Ive already pointed out that the cooling system is inadequate for it. I wouldnt be surprised if the fan was the same part of the 3001.
> ...


will if you mod it then it will probobly do the job your the Mechanical Designer


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

In goes the controller. Had to completely redesign the subframe around the controller. The tray in 2mm alloy might act as a heatsink and the other 3 sides will get ducted air.


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

More controller tray pics


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

$2500 120v 1000A with separate capacitor box.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Nice work on the bracket. What's with the separate capacitor box, are those the capacitors for the controller in a separate box or are they extra capacitors?


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

JRP3 said:


> Nice work on the bracket. What's with the separate capacitor box, are those the capacitors for the controller in a separate box or are they extra capacitors?


That comes with the controller. Its good for motorcycles cause if they were inside the main box it would have been too big to put anywhere. this way its easier to fit.


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

been doing some of the low voltage work.
Using the harnesses supplied by Kelly was half the work already done.
I have a handlebar mounted precharge switch, reverse and boost button.
The boost function supplies full 1000 amps regardless of throttle position ??? not sure how effective this will be on track but wired it up anyway, likewise the reverse function...why ??? because its there.
I have a cheapo 200v voltmeter to let me know if the battery voltage is low enough to engage to controller. Over 136v and the controller goes into fault mode.

The cap box assembly is going in under here on another sheet aly tray.


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## Dalardan (Jul 4, 2008)

I do suppose your Electric Race Bike will be used for a racing purpose. Then, why use a needle amp meter? The high G-forces implied in racing will make your reading impossible. Simply try to shake your meter and see if the needle is moving...

In my humble opinion, get a digital meter.

Dalardan


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

Dalardan said:


> I do suppose your Electric Race Bike will be used for a racing purpose. Then, why use a needle amp meter? The high G-forces implied in racing will make your reading impossible. Simply try to shake your meter and see if the needle is moving...
> 
> In my humble opinion, get a digital meter.
> 
> Dalardan


Yeah I wish
The Ammeter Im using is a Kelly one which taps straight into the controller ie no shunt. It reads out in percentage not amps.
Il test it first, if it wobbles Il try something else.


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## frodus (Apr 12, 2008)

Why put a toggle switch on the precharge resistor? Its ALWAYS supposed to be connected. If you insist on doing that, you need to have a "toggle" that will work with Pack voltage. most are rated at 12VDC, 120VAC. 120VDC will NOT work on a 120VAC rated switch, it will arc.

I don't know why people think they need the precharge on a switch. Once the caps are charged inside the kelly, there is no current flow. You could keep that bike sitting there for months and the precharge will not discharge the pack. Just wire it across and be done, its not neccessary to switch the precharge.


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## Thomas88 (Apr 27, 2010)

I'm not sure what the motion ratio is on your swingarm but it looks like if you go over a large-ish bump your suspension linkage is going to go through the controller bracket.

(First picture of post #103)

EDIT: On second inspection, I may have mistaken non-moving parts for moving parts. Ignore.


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

Got a shipment from Mr LifeTech
320x 8Ah cells.

Motors are coming soon


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Sweet. How much did they run you?


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

JRP3 said:


> Sweet. How much did they run you?


$14.500AUD
they are 331gr each will make about 52kg per battery.
were checking out SAFT too, they have an office about 10km from where I live in Sydney but are virtually impossible to get anything from.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

$14,500? That works out to about $42 US per cell? Was that a typo?


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## Jozzer (Mar 29, 2009)

Wish I'd have known, I have 10kw/h+ of those cells sitting here looking for a new home at half that price..


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## zwmaster (Nov 23, 2009)

That looks like rebranded headway.
38120SP?
Could be just a coincidence.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Same outside casing, basically, different insides.


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## zwmaster (Nov 23, 2009)

It would be nice to compare this two cells.


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

JRP3 said:


> Same outside casing, basically, different insides.


Yep
LifeTech get headway to make their cells using headway casing and LifeTech powder and lithium and basically everything that goes inside.
Headway are not allowed to used LifeTech chemistry in their own cells hence the massive performance difference.
Armin knows more about the details but I think I heard him say the 8Ah LifeTech is at 28C discharge.
They are the only real option for the R1 at this time as real A123's and SAFT are unavailable.


----------



## zwmaster (Nov 23, 2009)

What's voltage sag at 28C? 
Does it stay over 3.0V or goes down to 2.5V?
thnx


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

RIPPERTON said:


> Yep
> LifeTech get headway to make their cells using headway casing and LifeTech powder and lithium and basically everything that goes inside.
> Headway are not allowed to used LifeTech chemistry in their own cells hence the massive performance difference.


I don't think LifeTech uses Headway for manufacturing any longer.


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## Jozzer (Mar 29, 2009)

zwmaster said:


> What's voltage sag at 28C?
> Does it stay over 3.0V or goes down to 2.5V?
> thnx


At 20C, sags to 2.4v, but soon gets hot enough to pump out a little more and rise to 2.6v.
I realise now I have the 10AH version of the same size cell. No more than 10C peak out of this one..


----------



## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

just did 320 voltage checks, (took 2 nights)
all were between 3.310v and 3.328v.
Pretty good, can see that LifeTech are concerned about quality.


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## Jozzer (Mar 29, 2009)

Cool. Before you assemble however, take some measurements under load, and check IR is even. 30A or so should do it. Voltage at rest doesnt tell you much with LifePo4 cells..

S


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

Jozzer said:


> and check IR is even.



I cant understand how to check Internal resistance on a battery.
My ohm meter doesnt work on a powered circuit ???. just blinks (digital)


----------



## Jozzer (Mar 29, 2009)

That's why you measure cell voltages whilst under a load. A cell with a higher resistance will show a lower voltage..

Steve


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

Unashamedly the first DIYer in the world to receive not one but 2 ME0913's after a year and a half of waiting.
$600US each plus shipping
opened the lid of the box and it snarled at me. big muscly looking weighed in at 15.8kg.
dont ask me for specs yet, Im still busy looking at it.
Special thanks to John Fiorenza for these early samples.


----------



## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

Well some idiot didnt measure the belt correctly and it turned out too short.
The idiot went and did the calcs again and found out they dont make that type of belt long enough ........ so put a chain on at the expense of a couple of kilos.
The idiot will definitely be persueing the Tbelt concept at a later date when custom frames allow concentric motor swingarm arrangement.

right side motor mount not fitted yet

14t sprocket sandwiched between 2 keyed flanges and 4 shear bolts.


----------



## Evilsizer (Jan 25, 2010)

nice looking setup!


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Did you check the Gates website for their belt sizing tool? I think they have just about anything you could imagine.


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## kek_63 (Apr 20, 2008)

"Ya idiot!" was a term of endearment around our house until we had kids.


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## genawin (Oct 1, 2008)

Quote "will definitely be persueing the Tbelt concept at a later date when custom frames allow concentric motor swingarm arrangement."

Is this image below anything like what you had in mind ?


----------



## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

genawin said:


> Is this image below anything like what you had in mind ?


Yep but not a mod of an existing frame / swing arm.
kind of like this but only one motor


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## Darxus (May 10, 2010)

genawin said:


> Quote "will definitely be persueing the Tbelt concept at a later date when custom frames allow concentric motor swingarm arrangement."
> 
> Is this image below anything like what you had in mind ?


Where did you get that photo?


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

Got the right side motor mount and Capacitor box in.


----------



## genawin (Oct 1, 2008)

Originally Posted by *genawin*  
_Quote "will definitely be persueing the Tbelt concept at a later date when custom frames allow concentric motor swingarm arrangement."

Is this image below anything like what you had in mind ?

_


Darxus said:


> Where did you get that photo?


It's my own project.


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## Darxus (May 10, 2010)

genawin said:


> > Is this image below anything like what you had in mind ?
> 
> 
> It's my own project.


Can you give me more info? What belt and pulleys did you use? How well did they work?


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## genawin (Oct 1, 2008)

Darxus said:


> Can you give me more info? What belt and pulleys did you use? How well did they work?


I cut the middle out of a Buel blast rear pulley and fabricated my own center, used the shortest Harley belt available and machined the front pulley out of solid as i couldn't get anything under a 27 and i needed a 21, the project is not anywhere near complete so is untested.


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## evmotorcycle (Jun 23, 2010)

Your build looks fantastic Mr Ripperton! >


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

evmotorcycle said:


> Your build looks fantastic Mr Ripperton! >



Thanks Andy

You'll have to bear with me... Im making this up as I go along.

Currently designing the fuel tank...? I mean the battery
rather a mind F*&^


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

The first thing I did to the bike was reinforce the frame with bolt in struts.
eventually got around to thinking this could be improved so replace the struts with weld in aluminium RHS 25mm.
The cross piece will anchor the battery.
Still pretty much blocked with this project as Im learning more about battery design and function plus BMS systems.
I may do a low voltage boot using the 72v mountain bike battery just to see the wheels go around.


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

First Boot on 72 volts

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s9J-x2IV50A


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Congrats on the first spin. If you use the video URL after the "=" sign the embed function works, so in your case place s9J-x2IV50A between the youtube code.


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

Heres an Email reply from John Fiorenza himself...



> Really cool. Two of our electric boat customers are using this ME0913 motor in their products. It is now a standard product and we have 45 in stock in the USA


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

So I bolted the Mountain bike battery in to the R1 frame today and went for a ride.

Fucking AWESOME. even on 72v it had no lack of power and was fun to ride.
The gearing didnt seem too tall either
Taking into account the whole bike only weighes 100kg at the moment.
went around the block a few times then the battery started to drop cells.
(LifeTech cells) So todays test ride produced another 4 dead lifetech cells and they got pretty hot but somehow most of them seem to be unperturbed and came out with 3.2v


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## Evilsizer (Jan 25, 2010)

did you ever get any numbers on this motor? i saw the other thread but last i saw here you got modified motors vs that thread. what kind of power at 120v we looking at vs the other ones.


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

The first tentative test ride showed that there was no cogging evident and even at 72 volts pulled nicely I have realised that the T belt can now be used after all by reducing the rear pully size from 72t to 62t which raised the drive ratio from 2.93:1 to 2.82:1 and a projected theoretical top speed motor rpm of 5640 @ 240kmh from 5848rpm with the chain.
so virtually no difference.
Just have to make a new rear pully


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

test ride on an extension cord !!!!!
proved to be quite futile except for finding out how powerfull the regen brake is
and learning that we can only set it to 10% or the battery overvolts.
A friend is converting a VW van to electric and we "loaned" the 160v lithium battery for a while.
Although only using 120v of it, loaded into the back of the blue ute and connected to the R1
via 20m of 4 strand cable. The voltage drop across the cable would have been a lot !!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hNKTRPJFtHE


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## speedily (Mar 13, 2009)

Looking good matey


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

All those jokes about EV's needing a long extension cord to run just came true


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## speedily (Mar 13, 2009)

JRP3 said:


> All those jokes about EV's needing a long extension cord to run just came true


 One of the standing jokes i use when asked how well I think my dragster will go is..

The biggest thing will be teaching people how to roll out the extension cord its gunna be 2” inches thick and if its not set up right so it unplugs as I go across the finch line it might rip the back of the car J

Yes lots believe me


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

The TBelt goes back on with a 1.8:1 reduction and 1.5kg lighter than the chain.
Also got some LiPo's coming direct from Enerland, same factory that makes the A123 26650
The pulley came from the Belt shop but was full and weighed about 2.6kg. Had to machine it down and cnc some spokes in it
then rivet some cnced flanks on the sides...and paint it of course.


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## MalcolmB (Jun 10, 2008)

The belt drive looks great. Wish I had your machining resources. I want to try belt drive some time, but thought there would be belt tension issues as the swing arm moves up and down. One way to solve this is to use a two-stage drive and have the jackshaft concentric with the swing arm pivot – not easy to do on a production bike though.

I know a couple of people have mentioned this before, but I've got to agree that 1.8:1 is way too tall a gear ratio. I just reduced the ratio on my 130 kg Etek-powered bike from 5.5 to 4.6:1. The mid-range acceleration (40-50 mph) is much better now, but the takeoff is considerably slower. I wouldn't want to reduce it any more. I'm running 75V with a 300A current limit.


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

Im going to fit a cam belt tensioner to the left motor bracket just after the front pulley on the slack side.
Thought about a jack shaft but would rather not have that weight.
theres very little suspension movement so the slack isnt a big issue.

1.8:1 is tall but youve got to rmbr that this isnt a traffic bike. Its not intended to do standing starts at all. In a race the bike would be nursed off the grid at half throttle.
Its geared to accelerate from 90kmh. The slowest turn at Eastern Creek for example is T9 hairpin and even that is 90kmh.
With LiPo my bike will be as light as 130kg with the ME0913 which is 2x ME3001 plus 1000A of kelly controller.
I know it all sounds mad at the moment but it will come together in the end.
Its very specifically designed. If this was a commuter bike it would be totally different.
Im even thinking about removing the Kilovac solenoid contactor and switching with the big red button. Having the precharge resistor go around it full time. (without a switch)

Will say one thing about belts though. Utterly noiseless. Spin the wheel and you hear nothing.
definitely worth the $417 and 1.5kg weight saving


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Looks great. My belt isn't silent but it was a huge improvement over the chain and doesn't throw lube around, I'd choose a belt wherever possible over a chain.


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## MalcolmB (Jun 10, 2008)

RIPPERTON said:


> I know it all sounds mad at the moment but it will come together in the end.
> Its very specifically designed.


Makes a lot more sense now. I look forward to hearing how it works out.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

I was hoping to see the pick up driving along side your bike with the lead joining the two. Guess that could have been a little dangerous if the lead snagged though.


Love the red drive belt, colour coordinates with the seat.
I am hoping to use belt drive on my trike. I am looking at between 2.85:1 and 3:1 direct drive.
As I am planning on mostly driving at 60-70mph I can suffer a slower take off relying on motor torque alone and limiting the motor to its safe 3500rpm.


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

One more video
feast your ears from 2m 40s
listen for regen braking at 3m 6s

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o5ozc_uUCiQ


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## aegidius (Oct 10, 2010)

Saw your bike at Rouse Hill yesterday - looks nice. No batteries yet? I emailed John F. asking him about the ME0913 - I've been looking at an ME1003 for a road bike or small car. Just wondering from the videos - what is the cause of the low speed noise? Is it the motor itself or the belt? I have been told that PM BLDC motors can be noisy.

Giles
Brisbane AEVA


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## MalcolmB (Jun 10, 2008)

Thanks Ripperton, that's a very useful video. Looks like you've got the belt nicely aligned. Did you use any tools to help set the tension, or just adjust it till it felt right? What was the motor temperature like when you finished the ride?

Looking forward to seeing what you do with the battery pack.

Malcolm


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

Aegidius the noise is cogging. I think its the rotor not smoothly passing from one phase to the next at low rpm and this is worsened on my bike because of the tall gearing.
These guys will have the ME0913 soon I hope, just Email them.
http://www.evworks.com.au/index.php?category=1

Mal I can angle my motor to guide the Tbelt into the centre of the pulley because the right hand side mounting bolts have a bit of slop in the motor mounting frame.
Ive just ordered 2 Silicon Nitride full ceramic full compliment ball bearings from VXB in Anaheim http://www.vxb.com/Merchant2/mercha...de=bearings&Category_Code=FullCeramicBearings
$50 each and they will go inside a nylon roller to make a spring tensioner
At the show...


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

MalcolmB said:


> Thanks Ripperton, that's a very useful video. Looks like you've got the belt nicely aligned. Did you use any tools to help set the tension, or just adjust it till it felt right? What was the motor temperature like when you finished the ride?
> Looking forward to seeing what you do with the battery pack.
> Malcolm


I unbolted the rear shock and lifted the rear wheel so the 3 axles were in line then tension the belt to it didnt have any slack.
The motor wont be getting hot with this battery, its out of my mountain bike hub motor and is only 180 amp. I finally realised I could ramp the controller down to 20% draw on battery so I dont destroy anymore LifeTech cells.
The mountain bike battery is running very stable even without a BMS as long as I dont try to draw too much from it.
The first time I tried this battery in the R1 the controller was set to 60% draw on battery so it was sucking 600 amps out of a 180 amp cell...crash.
I just ordered a new 72v 40A controller for the mountain bike so it might be a bit more successful second time around.


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

The definition of Power to Weight ratio

A123 26650 = 72gr, 120A (1.6 amps per gram)
Lifetech 38120 8Ah = 333gr, 330A (0.9 amps per gram)
Enerland XQ4350 Lipo = 108gr, 320A (2.96 amps per gram)
The Enerland went from 20 degrees C room temp to 32 degrees C in 3 seconds at 320 A.


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## diydude (Oct 7, 2010)

cool bike...how fast does it go?


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

the TBelt tensioner was a good excuse to experiment with full Ceramic bearings.
Silicon Nitride being the hardest of the 3 materials they come in and full compliment means theres no
cage and as many balls as can fit in there. This material is geometrically perfect and has almost zero thermal expansion
so runs smooth at high speed and needs no grease but without a seal they are a bit noisy.
Forgot to mention the weight difference, 5 gr against 12gr for a full steel bearing but $50 a pop.


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

diydude said:


> cool bike...how fast does it go?


Had it up to 85kmh going down hill on the Cycleway.


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## atbrandt (Sep 30, 2010)

Hi RIPPERTON,

Your build looks good. I especially like the motor you've found at Mars Electric. Great find. I have done a comparison of the different motors out there and found that this one has of the best power to cost ratio (kw/$). Similar ratio to the Golden Motor, but much more absolute power. It will be interesting to see how much power you'll be able to squeeze out of it. 

I also like the belt drive. I would like to fit one to my planned build also. With the ICE removed you realise the chain makes hell of noise. Removing that noice considerably adds to the wow-factor of the bike. Added benefit is no more dirt/oil from the chain and less weight.

Can you share the models/brands + specs of the pulley's and belt that you used? I'd like to buy the same, but can't find the right parts to buy. Perhaps you could post the links to the items you bought for the belt drive? 

Looking forward to your next progress report!! Let us know your experience with the ME0913. I'm seriously considering going for this motor instead of the Golden Motor.

KR,
Alex


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

My tbelt is a Synchroflex AT10 25mm wide. 10900N tensile strength.
Its made in Germany but you hould be able to get it from most tbelt supliers

http://www.piesau.com.au/Timing Belt Drives.htm

http://www.piesau.com.au/shop/index1.html


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

machined swingarm for small rock clearance to motor
have rebuilt rear suspension with new bigger needle bearings and a new
penske shock on the way.
Proving very difficult to settle on a design, it keeps changing.
cells used to be standing up on edge, are now lying down flat.
Some designs I can add voltage vertically but not Ah laterally.


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

Penske 8783 remote goes piggy back with cnced nylon clamp
got shock from the states new for $800 shipped.


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## bmx (Feb 21, 2011)

Hey there,
I served you in a bike shop today and you gave me this link. Very impressive, when did you say you be out at the creek? Also what was it that made you be over combustion engines? I had no idea thisa sort of thing was happening in australia.


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## DawidvC (Feb 14, 2010)

Verrrry Nice!


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

bmx said:


> Hey there,
> I served you in a bike shop today and you gave me this link. Very impressive, when did you say you be out at the creek? Also what was it that made you be over combustion engines? I had no idea thisa sort of thing was happening in australia.



Hey Calum
Cant say when the bike will be on the track, Im right into the Battery pack right now and Im not going to rush it. Its a real head scratcher.
Hope to make it to Wakefield in April .
The ridiculous complexity of pistons engines finally got to me. Ive been rebuilding bike engines since I was 9 and realised you cant beat the 1 moving part that an AC motor has.
Whats your best time around the creek and on what bike?


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## bmx (Feb 21, 2011)

Yes my overzealous collegue was quick to comment on how fast (or slow) i am. 1.48's at the creek and 1.09's at wakefeild park on my 93 zxr750 naked (budget racer). 
Do you do all the work, machining ect, yourself?
Id be keen to come and have a watch when its ready.
By the way my zxr is naked, not me.


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

bmx said:


> Yes my overzealous collegue was quick to comment on how fast (or slow) i am. 1.48's at the creek and 1.09's at wakefeild park on my 93 zxr750 naked (budget racer).
> Do you do all the work, machining ect, yourself?
> Id be keen to come and have a watch when its ready.
> By the way my zxr is naked, not me.



Heres the FXtreme TTXGP calender
http://www.formula-xtreme.com.au/xt...30BED5B67367F202CA257801001425F2!OpenDocument

Im the only person working on my bike but I get lots of technical help from my friends (engineers)
I have a small cnc router that can cut aircraft alloy so I make all my own parts.
I will probly get to the creek before April though for a shake down and see if I can scare the admin with my world changing concepts.


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

Got the battery in the R1 last night and went for a ride this morning without an initial charge and
with the controller set to max output. battery voltage stood at 125v before charge
anything past 1/8 throttle and the t belt jumps so will be going back to chain drive with a similar sized
rear sprocket geared for 240kmh. still got it up to 105kmh on quarter throttle.
took 5 months to design the battery and 6 weeks to make it but it turned out well.
it came out at 48 kilo so the whole bike should be around 140kg with cables ect.
heres a shot of battery box without cells.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Why do you think the belt is jumping? Other bikes use them successfully.


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

JRP3 said:


> Why do you think the belt is jumping? Other bikes use them successfully.


Could be not enough wrap around.
Also could be the shape of the tooth,
its pretty shallow unlike the Harley, it has a much taller tooth that
is round not square like the Synchroflex
Might get back to it later and put a bigger idler pully up higher.
Its a bummer cause the chain is 1.2kg heavier.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

The Harleys are a lot wider I think as well. Yours looks like a similar size as mine, though mine is shorter, and doesn't have to deal with suspension flex.


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

So I didnt muck around blowing up my first electric motor.
After putting the chain back on I set the controller up to max amps...bad idea.
this put so much heat into the windings and rotor I think I stuffed it.
found out electric motors are very easy to pull apart, just need a basic automotive puller and a 
custom flange plate. Rotor is only 7mm thick, thats a little skimpy for this app.
the Neo magnets probably also got damaged in the heat wave.


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

RIPPERTON said:


> So I didnt muck around blowing up my first electric motor.
> After putting the chain back on I set the controller up to max amps...bad idea.
> this put so much heat into the windings and rotor I think I stuffed it.


Bummer RIPPER,

How high was max amps? Did you at least get a feel before the bad news? How did it pull the bike? Didn't the motor have temp sensors?

major

edit: Are you sure it is the motor which failed? It does not look particularly burned out. Maybe the controller bit the dust. It is a Kelly, right?


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## Darxus (May 10, 2010)

Huh, I didn't realize the coils were stationary in pancake motors. That makes liquid cooling an option. Which is interesting since power handling is entirely a matter of how much heat it can handle / dissipate.


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

major said:


> Bummer RIPPER,
> 
> How high was max amps? Did you at least get a feel before the bad news? How did it pull the bike? Didn't the motor have temp sensors?
> 
> ...


1000 A but didnt get anywhere near full throttle, now I dont think I ever will with this motor. At least the troller will have an easy life.
The bike was fast, thats for sure I was running out of cycleway at half throttle. 
When I did give it half throttle the motor seemed to shudder and then and over amp fault code came up on the the troller.
As long as I can improve cooling this bike will be good for 200kmh on track plus. Im going to turn the troller back down to about 45% (450amps) just to stop the heat in the motor.
Motor does have a thermistor but its not the one Kelly spec so there wont be an accurate reading. All I know is when I pulled into the garage the windings were at 145 C (H class).

The next morning I took it for a ride and it had no power, the battery was still up around 123v.
Im waiting for Jon (Catavolt) to send me my second motor back so I can 
first compare magnet strength and then test it again at lower amps.


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

Darxus said:


> Huh, I didn't realize the coils were stationary in pancake motors. That makes liquid cooling an option. Which is interesting since power handling is entirely a matter of how much heat it can handle / dissipate.


Exactly but I dont want the weight and complexity of water cooling.
Ive just come up with an idea of modifying the rotor so it acts as a fan.
brb.


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## Darxus (May 10, 2010)

I'm curious to hear the results of testing the permanent magnets. How are you going to do it? Something ferrous and some weights?

Have you tried testing the coils for continuity?


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

Darxus said:


> I'm curious to hear the results of testing the permanent magnets. How are you going to do it? Something ferrous and some weights?
> 
> Have you tried testing the coils for continuity?



Im not actually going to use a meter Im just going to put a small screw driver
on the magnet and see how much strength I need to pull it off and compare that.
I put an ohm meter between the coil cable and the frame of the motor and it read 1.6 mili ohm. This was when the motor was still in the bike.
But now with the coils out of the motor they are open circuit to the core but continuous between all 3 cables.
Some of the winding wires were resting on the core but I levered them off with a small screwdriver


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## ZX-E (Aug 31, 2009)

Your bike looks great. Thanks for posting what you've gone through and what you've learned as your project progressed. I really liked seeing your battery box design iterations Ripperton.


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

Thanks ZX
theres a lot of detail Im not showing about the battery box but deliberately so. The battery is doing well and I found out having a lot of cells in parallel sure helps with overall voltage stability and balance.
Ive just added a cooling fan to my 120v Elcon and will soon give the batt its first full charge.

I got my second motor back and pulled it apart to check magnet strength and there is a definate difference between the cooked motor and the new one.
So in goes the new motor while Im modding the cooling system on old one.
I replaced the drive side bearing because the seal drag was horendous.
Ive siliconed the ExRay temp sensor directly to the windings for a more accurate reading.


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## Salty9 (Jul 13, 2009)

DIY gauss meter

http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=307133

Interesting read. Humorous in places.


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

Turns out the windings are ok but the Neodimium magnets got overheated and lost power.
have figured out I can make a new bigger rotor with thicker magnets and inbuilt fan blades.
The second motor has gone back into the bike with some added cooling air inlet holes drilled into the 
drive side casing and a modded fan (alloy disc).


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## Darxus (May 10, 2010)

That's very interesting that the permanent magnets are the weak point in this motor, at least under some conditions. Glad the windings are okay.

Nice fan mod.


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

Darxus said:


> That's very interesting that the permanent magnets are the weak point in this motor, at least under some conditions. Glad the windings are okay.
> 
> Nice fan mod.


Yup, soon as I pulled this motor apart I noticed that the rotor was disproportionately small or too thin compared to the size of the coils and cores. Im thinking it is basically the same rotor out of the 3001.
The rotor itself is alloy but does not extend out to the casing so it could afford to be bigger to handle higher rpm and the spokes in between the magnets are incredibly thin so this is also a weak point.

The fan is basically a centrifugal diffuser so it takes air from around the hub and ejects it radially outwards but the prob with this fan is its so damn cheap, its just a punched piece of steel. because it has holes going right though it actually takes air from both sides of the fan so half the air that the fan is pumping is ambient !!!. If this theory is right Ive just doubled the volume of this fan. Plus if you look close Ive mounted the fan on the other side of the flange closer to the motor casing. there used to be about 8mm between the blade tips and the casing, now there is 1mm.
If this works Il make a new fan rotor out of 1.6mm alloy with full length blades.


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

Definitely making progress with the cooling system.
Ive added ducts to feed kinetic air from the fairing side panels to the air inlets on the motor casing.
the motor temp now responds to vehicle movement.
If I stop the temp rises a bit but when I start moving again the temp comes
down. will be adding more ducts. 4x 60mm, 2 on each side, hot glued to
the inside of the fairing.
Have turned the troller down to 60% motor power and 80% regen
50% battery.
Up around the 90kmh mark the motor really starts to sing. Loud whiney hum.Cant wait to get this to the track


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Have you considered adding an external powered blower? That would keep cooling at low speed, or when stopped.


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## Zak650 (Sep 20, 2008)

Hi,

I have greatly appreciated your photos of the dissassembled motor. Can you put up a few shots of the back side of the windings? I know that magnetism decreases or goes away at about 450 deg F in conventional magnets. Do you think the magnets in your motor are permanently damaged?

Thanks


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

JRP3 said:


> Have you considered adding an external powered blower? That would keep cooling at low speed, or when stopped.


not on a race bike I dont think I could afford the weight but I would definitely put one on if I get it registered......dreaming


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

Zak650 said:


> Hi,
> I have greatly appreciated your photos of the dissassembled motor. Can you put up a few shots of the back side of the windings? I know that magnetism decreases or goes away at about 450 deg F in conventional magnets. Do you think the magnets in your motor are permanently damaged?
> 
> Thanks


Its possible to get them recharged but I want to make a bigger thicker rotor with 10mm thick magnets and diffuser vanes built in. so I might leave it as is.
Winding cores are 50mm thick and the thermistor goes down one slot and back out another slot and is resined in. Ive removed the thermistor from this coil as its not the one Kelly spec, it has twice the resistance as the Kelly spec one. Im relying on the ExRay sensor that I have siliconed in under the windings. Its working ok and I get winding temp on my dashboard.


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

Heres some final shots, the bike is ride ready and might just show up at the Creek on Sunday for inspection.


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## Darxus (May 10, 2010)

I think this kind of motor includes some electronics instead of the commutator? Can you get photos of that? 

(What I'm reading is calling it the controller, which is confusing, because it's only controlling the phasing, not current.)


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

Darxus said:


> I think this kind of motor includes some electronics instead of the commutator? Can you get photos of that?


Darx,

He has everything really well documented on his thread. Read it. He talks about the controller back on page 4 and has photos on around post 104.

RIPPER,

Nice build. Let's see some lap times 

major


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## Darxus (May 10, 2010)

major, that's not the controller I'm talking about. I tried to be as clear as possible. Maybe look up what a commutator is? 

I'm talking about what is referred to as a controller here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brushless_DC_electric_motor
A component of the motor. Inside the motor. It's actually very related to an AC motor controller.

Not the thing that functions like a dimmer switch in EVs.


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

Hall sensor ?


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## Darxus (May 10, 2010)

Sorry, I pretty substantially confused some things. But that certainly answers my questions - that the input is from a hall sensor, and the controller is not actually in the motor.

I was thinking this was similar to a ME0709 motor. Which is apparently not brushless.


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

Ive been advancing the shit out of the hall timing, seems the more I advance the better it goes. Still gets hot though, my core temps get up to 80C while in motion and soak to 105C when stopped. Its getting damn fun to ride now with the timing advanced but troller amps are still only 400


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

I have advanced so far I have lost all regen braking. This means I need a manual timing advance / retard device (like a model T Ford)which is probably normally advanced but when I pull a lever that retards timing for standing start or for regen braking.Ive done 56km on the batteries first charge and the voltage is 123v. but the ExRay is reading slow so Ive done more than that.
Ive just reconfiged the speedo.
voltage range is 136v to 93v = 43v. Ive used up 13v so could get up to 180k range.
Controller is set at only 400 amps and the motors temp seems to be behaving itself.
I have the ExRays temp sensor siliconed into the windings.
Going to look at getting custom 10mm thick magnets made and designing a rotor with tangial vanes. Lots of work ahead.


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## Zak650 (Sep 20, 2008)

Hi,

Here's a link to some 1/2" thick trapazoidal or wedge shaped magnets based on a 8" od. circle. I've been considering them for a custom built motor. There's nothing that says the layout of the magnets has to go out to the full 8" diameter. Holes pointing at the centerline of the motor in between the magnets could act like an air fan to aid cooling.

http://www.magnet4less.com/product_reviews_info.php?products_id=457&reviews_id=400

Zak


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## Darxus (May 10, 2010)

Zak, that site requires logging in just to look at the products?


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## Zak650 (Sep 20, 2008)

Try this:

http://www.magnet4less.com/index.php?cPath=1_15

Also look on the left side of the page for high temperature magnets

Zak


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

The Mars magnets have a very weird magnetization direction.
I took them out to AMF magnets here in Sydney and had a chat with
Eric Giddio. He put his Gauss meter on them and found they were magnetized
by their leading and trailing edges. ie the pink dots were the north.
these were putting out up to 3000 gauss. these were the magnets that I overheated.
But the green plastic test showed up some weird lines.
first the hall rotor.


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

I also inquired about Samarium Cobalt magnets.
they have about 95% the power of Neodimium but
are much more resistant to heat. Also about 15% more expensive.
Eric suggested against Samarium and for a higher grade of Neo's
Neos can go up to 200C


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

bummer they didnt come out with Nic's image 
Started off pretty uneven so I picked up 2 cell blocks using an RC charger
then hooked up the Elcon and they all seemed to even out.


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

billet racing fan, I have no idea how to design diffuser blades but heres a start.
These blades might be too steep and could stall at higher rpm.
The cnc router was running 6 hours for this.
Im still amazed at the quality of stuff I can make with a $7k Chinese machine.
had 2 different programs and a tool change. note tricky radius inside edges.


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## Darxus (May 10, 2010)

RIPPERTON said:


> Im still amazed at the quality of stuff I can make with a $7k Chinese machine.


It must be wonderful to have a $7k Chinese CNC to screw around with. Unfortunately not $7k of my money wonderful.

I'm guessing you want something more like these: http://www.google.com/images?q=squirrel+cage+fan
Open in the middle (no need to just spin the air like that) with blades closer to parallel to the outside edge.


----------



## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

spun her up just now and this fan BLOWS.
new Hall sensor mount.


----------



## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

Just toasted a second set of magnets. 
both rotors are now dead
core temp was 140C, was running at 500 amps
fan is working fine.
now looking for some bigass magnets


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## Darxus (May 10, 2010)

Ouch, sorry to hear it.

How much air was getting pulled _in_ to the motor? Are you sure the fan was causing effective circulation, not just fiercely pushing air around?


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

RIPPERTON said:


> Just toasted a second set of magnets.
> both rotors are now dead
> core temp was 140C, was running at 500 amps
> fan is working fine.
> now looking for some bigass magnets


Too Bad RIPPER,

I really haven't dealt with PM motors much. But I brushed up against the theory a bit now and then. The magnets always seemed fragile to me in a number of respects. And I see 2 prime possibilities as causes for your problems. One is heat as you suspect. And going to thicker magnets of the same material won't help you.

The second is the demagnetizing field. If you exceed the intrinsic coersive force of the material, you will lower the residual flux density. The armature field will do this when to too high a current is present. Here, I think, thicker magnets will help.

Most BLDC motors are sold as a motor controller package. When this is done, the controller current limit can be set to keep the demagnetizing field under the limits of the magnets. You, IIRC, purchased a Kelly controller for your motor. Did you consult the motor designer as to safe operating region?

You've done an impressive design and fab on your bike and appear to like to do it yourself, but this may be an area where some outside expertise is required.

Regards,

major


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

major said:


> Too Bad RIPPER,
> 
> I really haven't dealt with PM motors much. But I brushed up against the theory a bit now and then. The magnets always seemed fragile to me in a number of respects. And I see 2 prime possibilities as causes for your problems. One is heat as you suspect. And going to thicker magnets of the same material won't help you.
> 
> ...


Excellent
indeed it is an area where outside expertise is required.
John Fiorenza himself has been helpful in uttering the word "trapezoidal",
still not quite sure what that means, its not just the wedge or arc shape
but the simplicity of its direction of magnetization ?.
And one more magnet expert (Jaimie McDermot of Neosid) has come a little closer to deciphering Johns magnet as "someone spent a lot of money making this little wonder"
It has 4 poles and a trimmed trailing edge. The leading edge (direction of rotation) has a north and south through the thickness as does the trailing edge but reversed so if you look at one face the leading edge with the pink dot is a north and the trailing edge is a south but flip it over, the leading edge is a south and trailing edge is a north.
What I hope to do is make a trapezoidal maged through the thickness simply.
Jaimie has quoted a 12mm thick trapezoidal arc 350C Samarium Cobalt
with all around fixing shoulders for $90 each and 4 weeks delivery.
Have to check with John first to see if this will work.
The original magnet is 7mm thick only.


----------



## MalcolmB (Jun 10, 2008)

RIPPERTON said:


> John Fiorenza himself has been helpful in uttering the word "trapezoidal",
> still not quite sure what that means, its not just the wedge or arc shape
> but the simplicity of its direction of magnetization ?


Was John not talking about the desired output from the controller when he mentioned 'trapezoidal'. The website seems to be down right now so I can't check, but I think your motor is PMAC (permanent magnet AC) rather than brushless DC. If you're using a regular brushless (Kelly?) controller it produces a trapezoidal output rather than the sinusoidal output that the motor is designed for. This leads to inefficient operation and overheating.

The Sevcon Gen 4 controllers produce a true sinusoidal output, but you also need the programmer to set it up correctly: http://www.sevcon.com/Media/gen4.html


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

Thats right Mal, the current magnets are sinusoidal
I wonder what Im missing out on here. John said there might be more noise
using trapezoidal magnets. 
Now, how to make a trapezoidal magnet and what about the coils.
Will they suit a trapezoidal arrangement.


----------



## MalcolmB (Jun 10, 2008)

I don’t think it’s as simple as changing the magnets. Digging a little deeper, this is from Shane Colton’s site, which has much, much more (http://scolton.blogspot.com/2009/11/everything-you-ever-wanted-to-know.html

/quote/ … the only functional difference is the shape of the waveforms (both the back EMF and the drive waveform). BLDC refers to motors with more-or-less trapezoidal back EMF, common in small motors …
… Why is it trapezoidal? This is entirely due to the geometry of the motor. It has nothing to do with the controller, which should be obvious (although for some reason it's not) since this measurement can be made with nothing attached to the motor at all. It has to do with the layout of magnets and coils and steel. The more you can see sharp transitions in magnets, coils, or steel, the more trapezoidal it becomes. This is common in small motors because it's easier to make a motor with concentrated windings and discrete, non-skewed magnets.

As a counter-example, larger motors often called "brushless AC" or "permanent magnet AC" tend to have skewed magnets and overlapped windings in a large number of slots, so their back EMF looks more sinusoidal. These motors can (should) be driven with a pure AC signal … /unquote/


The impression I've got is that brushless motors with a trapezoidal design become much less efficient at higher currents, so large brushless motors use a sinusoidal layout (and are then known as PMAC/PMSM). In other words you really need to find a sinusoidal controller to match your motor, rather than trying to convert your motor to a trapezoidal design to match your controller ... I think.


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

Bummer
I distinctly rmbr asking kelly if the Mars motor and their controller were compatible. they said yes.
heres a go at magnet


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## Salty9 (Jul 13, 2009)

You could use iron core electromagnets. Curie point close to 800 C. Maximum torque at zero rpm increasing speed with decreasing voltage to rotor


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## MalcolmB (Jun 10, 2008)

It might be worth giving these guys a call, as they're using four of the same motors as you, powered by a pair of 600A Kelly controllers. Maybe the combination works fine, but you're just asking too much of it.

http://evmc2.wordpress.com/2011/03/07/i-spy-with-my-eye-four-motors-team-catavolt-and-200mph/


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

MalcolmB said:


> It might be worth giving these guys a call, as they're using four of the same motors as you, powered by a pair of 600A Kelly controllers. Maybe the combination works fine, but you're just asking too much of it.


I know Jon, he had one of my 0913's so he could make the extended swingarm before his 4 motors arrived.

He'll be giving me a call once I figure out how to get more power out of these things

Heres me pulling my pack out of the bike the hard way, will be done later with a gantry

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vh3WUE-29Hc


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

Heres a transcript from an Email from Kelly controllers



> We did develop the Sine controller last year.
> Our study show that trapzoidal waveform can be better than sinu wave, because it can get totally flat current, and higher torque.
> Our research shows most of BLDC motors have trapzoidal (or triangular) waveform. Sinusoidal drive doesn't get sinusoidal current... Actually we have done sinusoidal drive. But as of today it doesn't show much advantage.


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## KG_00 (Sep 8, 2009)

RIPPERTON said:


> Heres a transcript from an Email from Kelly controllers


In general a sine wave controller will be smoother and a little more efficient, but is harder/more costly to design and has a little less peak current so a little less peak torque than a trapezoidal or squarewave drive.

If your magnets produce a true sine wave BEMF then a sine wave controller is best, but a trap/squarewave controller will work as well. If the magnets produce a trap/sqarewave BEMF then the opposite is true.

Nice build by the way. I've been following silently. I like your "just do it" and "if it breaks lets fix it" mentality.

-Kyle


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

KG_00 said:


> In general a sine wave controller will be smoother and a little more efficient, but is harder/more costly to design and has a little less peak current so a little less peak torque than a trapezoidal or squarewave drive.
> 
> If your magnets produce a true sine wave BEMF then a sine wave controller is best, but a trap/squarewave controller will work as well. If the magnets produce a trap/sqarewave BEMF then the opposite is true.
> 
> ...


OK so now I know what trapezoidal means, refers to the shape of the oscilloscope voltage line, square wave like a castlation.
so voltage switches back and forth from pos to neg as opposed to tapering
off gradually or curving back and forth like a snake.
John Fiorenza is sending me 32 trap magnets that are the same shape as the sine magnets in the motor now, just that Im using twice as many of them putting 2 magnets back to back in pairs making a rotor 14mm thick.
Im thinking of machining 3.5mm off the backs of the coil cores.

So now I need to know how the trap magnets are magnetized.
through the thickness ? so one face is N and the other face is S.
So each pair of magnets will be joined together by a like pole and have a like pole visible facing the windings on either side but the next pair of magnets will alternate and have the opposite poles visible.

If it aint broke, break it.
If it breaks, redesign it so it doesnt break.


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

RIPPERTON said:


> Im thinking of machining 3.5mm off the backs of the coil cores.


That would likely be a very bad thing to do. You'd just decrease useful flux and reduce torque per amp.


----------



## cycleguy (Oct 7, 2009)

You may want to consider going to an AC induction motor/controller like this

http://www.thunderstruck-ev.com/index.php?dispatch=products.view&product_id=70

You can use the new Curtis 1238-7601 controller for up to 130V/650amps.

AC induction eliminates magnet problems, and also provides much better control and regen capability. Although these do get hot too, there is much more motor mass than your current setup to dissipate heat. These are very popular with US built TTXGP bikes and are very reliable and proven, they also rev to 8000 rpm.


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

With the extra hassle of dealing with magnets they do have one advantage though, weight, and thats why I would stick with a PM motor for a race bike at least.
Later I want to do a commuter bike to use up my LifeTech cells.
Yamaha FJR1300 shaft with an AC 50 or 35. Low performance 72v, long distance.

http://www.thunderstruck-ev.com/index.php?dispatch=products.view&product_id=95


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## Zak650 (Sep 20, 2008)

If you need a way to test magnetic poles

ebay Item #360354900195 is $25 plus shipping

Zak


----------



## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

RIPPERTON said:


> Later I want to do a commuter bike to use up my LifeTech cells.
> Yamaha FJR1300 shaft with an AC 50 or 35. Low performance 72v, long distance.
> 
> http://www.thunderstruck-ev.com/index.php?dispatch=products.view&product_id=95


Why use such a heavy motor in a bike? The AC31 moves my 2500 lb Fiero quite well at 115V, you could get by with a much smaller motor for your bike.


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

Zak650 said:


> If you need a way to test magnetic poles
> ebay Item #360354900195 is $25 plus shipping
> Zak


Doesnt ship to Australia 
Im still confused as to the arrangement of the magnet pairs.
each pair of magnets will have to have like poles facing outwards ?
which means like poles facing inwards which repel.


----------



## major (Apr 4, 2008)

RIPPERTON said:


> Doesnt ship to Australia
> Im still confused as to the arrangement of the magnet pairs.
> each pair of magnets will have to have like poles facing outwards ?
> which means like poles facing inwards which repel.


If you go back to your post #223 you have a S-pole facing you at 12 noon, right? Now if you flipped it over on the 12-6 0'clock axis, you'd have a N-pole facing you at 12 o'clock right?

You want your new rotor to be the same as this, right? Then you need to put the magnet pairs N to S so they attract each other. 

Cheers,

major


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

major said:


> If you go back to your post #223 you have a S-pole facing you at 12 noon, right? Now if you flipped it over on the 12-6 0'clock axis, you'd have a N-pole facing you at 12 o'clock right?
> 
> You want your new rotor to be the same as this, right? Then you need to put the magnet pairs N to S so they attract each other.
> 
> ...


OK thats what I was hoping for.
I asked John all these question but he doesnt answer all of them
The original sine magnets had 4 poles, the leading edge was N-S through the thickness and the center was S-N then the trailing edge was the dead section which wasnt magnetized at all. Very expensive magnet.
I think Im going to get a whole lot more power with trap magnets, not just because Im doubling the number or effective thickness of the magnets but because each individual field is twice as big. and no dead sections.


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

RIPPERTON said:


> OK thats what I was hoping for.
> I asked John all these question but he doesnt answer all of them
> The original sine magnets had 4 poles, the leading edge was N-S through the thickness and the center was S-N then the trailing edge was the dead section which wasnt magnetized at all. Very expensive magnet.
> I think Im going to get a whole lot more power with trap magnets, not just because Im doubling the number or effective thickness of the magnets but because each individual field is twice as big. and no dead sections.


O.K. dude, you lost me. Post #198 clearly shows the stator winding. It is a 24 slot armature. The coil pitch is 3. This means it is an 8 pole motor like you show in post #223.


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

major said:


> O.K. dude, you lost me.


yep me too 

Both magnet experts here in Sydney that I showed the magnet to said the same thing. very complex magnet.


----------



## Salty9 (Jul 13, 2009)

DIY Gauss meter. Funny read in places.

http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=307133


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## ciggy (Mar 24, 2011)

Ripperton, I'm just starting the journey over here but I thought you might get some use out of this forum http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=972859

Seems to be a few guys there who are pretty skilled motor designers, maybe they can help. Motors are new to me but I do understand transformers and with those generally every ingredient in the mix is chosen for one target power output. The amount of steel (or alternative core material) is chosen to only carry the flux generated by the rated current through the coils plus some reasonable safety margin. If you push much past that current rating the steel reaches saturation so more current no longer causes more magnetic force, just more heating and a distorted waveform. If for some reason your transformer was designed with more steel than necessary then you may have some room to run higher than rated current but it would be unusual to use a lot more steel than necessary because of the extra weight, cost and losses associated with doing that. I don't know for sure that the situation is the same with motors but they seem similar in many ways.

Good luck with your project


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

Hey Ripperton,

Do you mind if I ask what the motor case temperature was when you reached 140C?

I may be in a similar predicament as you, although I haven't burned anything up yet. I managed to get the outside of my BLDC motor close to 90C on the last drive after dialing up the controller.

Do you figure the rotor is getting as hot as the stator?

Great writeup, by the way. Gotta love those chinese CNCs too, we have one too.


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

david85 said:


> Hey Ripperton,
> 
> Do you mind if I ask what the motor case temperature was when you reached 140C?
> 
> ...



About 80 - 90C. I measured winding temp with a laser thermometer.
130 - 140C
I dont think I have a temp problem. The windings look like new
I have an overamping the magnets problem.
Thats why I think the 180C magnets that John is sending me will work as Im using twice as many of them.


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

RIPPERTON said:


> About 80 - 90C. I measured winding temp with a laser thermometer.
> 130 - 140C
> I dont think I have a temp problem. The windings look like new
> I have an overamping the magnets problem.
> Thats why I think the 180C magnets that John is sending me will work as Im using twice as many of them.


Ok, that makes me feel a little better. Should be interesting to see how that works for you.


----------



## Davetheliftie (Mar 20, 2011)

MalcolmB said:


> I don’t think it’s as simple as changing the magnets. Digging a little deeper, this is from Shane Colton’s site, which has much, much more (http://scolton.blogspot.com/2009/11/everything-you-ever-wanted-to-know.html
> 
> /quote/ … the only functional difference is the shape of the waveforms (both the back EMF and the drive waveform). BLDC refers to motors with more-or-less trapezoidal back EMF, common in small motors …
> … Why is it trapezoidal? This is entirely due to the geometry of the motor. It has nothing to do with the controller, which should be obvious (although for some reason it's not) since this measurement can be made with nothing attached to the motor at all. It has to do with the layout of magnets and coils and steel. The more you can see sharp transitions in magnets, coils, or steel, the more trapezoidal it becomes. This is common in small motors because it's easier to make a motor with concentrated windings and discrete, non-skewed magnets.
> ...


Hey rip, its dave from sydney.Ive read most of this thread and the one on rats. Firstly can you clarify if you have a 3 phase ac pm motor ? I have a fair amount of experience on these as an elevator tech its pretty much my bread and butter. There may be a cheap fix to your overheat prop. I once had a squirrel cage induction motor that was severly overheating. The setup there was the motor worked for years on an old open loop control system. Contactor driven, fast and slow speed windings, direction controlled by the contactors changind the phase order. When the fast windings were used with the 2500 ppr encoder for feedback and the Ac drive we were operationg the lift on inpection mode ie about 20% of motor max rpm. We walked into the motor room to the smell of overheated windings. When we touched the cast motor casing it was hot enough to cook an egg (very unusual for infrequent low speed low current use) We called for the tuner to come take a look. The fix was very simple. It seems when the motor was wired to the drive (controller) the phasing was incorrect. It is very important to ensure u-u, v-v, w-w . Once this was rectified it performed well temp back to normal etc. I bring this up as there was no reduction in speed, only severe over temp.

I agree with the post about over saturation as ive seen it happen at work on massive dc machines.
Given what I just wrote the theory about matching ac motors to perfect sine waves in my opinion holds some weight. Our prob was the phasing out of sequence.

Having said that the VVac drives used in industry are not pure sine wave, They vary the voltage and frequency delivered to the motor via switching of igbts, Similar to what has been said about the way the kelly operates. 

I'd love to catch up at wakefield or prior, pm me if you like and ill give you a call.


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

Thats interesting Dave about the phases being out but no reduction in power.
Il ask John about it.
I simply connected the cables in the direction of rotation.


----------



## Davetheliftie (Mar 20, 2011)

RIPPERTON said:


> Thats interesting Dave about the phases being out but no reduction in power.
> Il ask John about it.
> I simply connected the cables in the direction of rotation.


Dead easy to check the phasing. Just dead test with your meter on buzz or ohms meter from u on the kelly to u on the motor etc. probably a bit condasending i know but youd be surprised how often the most complex motor control issues are often boiled down to something quite elementary. Please take no offence.

Can you pls post the link 4 your drive /kelly? and the specs on the mars motor.

As 4 the term brushless DC i have not heared before, I thought dc machines had brushes and ac motors work on induction.


----------



## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

http://kellycontroller.com/hp1210124-120v1000aopto-bldc-controllerwith-regen-p-738.html

http://www.motenergy.com/me1012.html


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

Had the answer all the time on the the first page of the thread.


----------



## Davetheliftie (Mar 20, 2011)

RIPPERTON said:


> They won because they didnt crash.
> If they had crashed they would have DNFed, thats a certainty.
> Thats why its a design fail because it doesnt entail crash protection.
> Who the hell goes racing thinking they wont crash.
> Crashing happens to everyone...Rossi......Stoner ect


Sure does lol "your ambition outweighed your talent" gunna be an intersting race season. Couldnt resist comment on this as I was going back over your thread.


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

Fiorenza's magnets turned out to be 4mm thick 120C Neos.
Not a prob really as he has also shared contact details for a custom magnet manufacturer who has already offered a deal for some 16mm thick 180C 
arcs to my design.
I m still making a new rotor using 32 of Fiorenza'a magnets stacked 4 thick.
This rotor will be used at Wakefield for the TTXGP test day and should have
the other rotor made by July for the first TTXGP race at Eastern Creek.

The new rotor incorporates axial vanes around the outside of the rotor.
pics soon.


----------



## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

New 16mm thick magnets in the motor and this thing *&^king flies.
Its a totally different bike now, goes like an electric bike should.
Cant believe how much punch that little motor cranks out now.
Still only weighes 15kg
The regen works all the time and much stronger. Its viable as a rear brake.
video soon.


----------



## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

RIPPERTON said:


> new 16mm thick magnets in the motor and this thing *&^king flies.
> Its a totally different bike now, goes like an electric bike should.
> cant believe how much punch that little motor cranks out now.
> Still only weighes 15kg
> ...


Sweet! I agree 100% with your methods of keeping it light and experimenting with stuff people say you shouldn't. That's my goal on four wheels... Keep up the good work!


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## SplinterOz (Apr 13, 2011)

RIPPERTON are you going to make it to Wakefield Park? I will be there with Chris from Perth with his RG250 convert.


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

SplinterOz said:


> RIPPERTON are you going to make it to Wakefield Park? I will be there with Chris from Perth with his RG250 convert.


Yes Splinter
as long as I dont blow the motor up again before then.
Ive just signed up for a new AASA licence and will be doing the 
Wakefield test days (Friday Saturday & Sunday)
apparently there will be actual races but points wont be tallied.


----------



## Evilsizer (Jan 25, 2010)

the improved motor pulling more current? you still running the same voltage or something higher/lower now? wonder how the torque is on that motor compared to when you got it.


----------



## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

Evilsizer said:


> the improved motor pulling more current? you still running the same voltage or something higher/lower now? wonder how the torque is on that motor compared to when you got it.


Bigger magnets wont pull more current but will result in more torque
from the same current.
Still on 134v 500A but havent gone past half throttle.
Still getting 100kmh on half throttle.
Going to wait till last day of Wakefield before I give it full throttle.
The 16mm thick magnet is made up of 4x 4mm magnets but still may only
have the same resistance to demagnetization as a 4mm magnet.
Theres at least twice the power coming from the motor now.


----------



## MalcolmB (Jun 10, 2008)

Well done for sticking this out and finding a solution. Hope she holds out for you on the track!


----------



## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

Thanks Mal
now getting 71km from a charge instead of 60km.
recharging in 1h20m.
cant show pics of the internals yet, trying to cut a sponsorship deal with Fiorenza.
Heres some noise for ya
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9T7XzPVteAI


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

Interesting point on motor assembly.
Had to use the puller to slowly lower each coil pack/motor case down
onto the shaft so the magnets didnt slam the core down hard and rip the 
circlip out.
Just the reverse of pulling the cases apart.
Have to go to great lengths to maintain control over Neo magnets.


----------



## leonheart (Mar 2, 2011)

Nice work, really
I haven't read all this topic yet, but in the beginning I read that you want
a really high speed motorcycle, do you think to keep the original 6 speed gearbox or are you going to remove that?
I think you could have more acceleration and more top speed, in generally, more performance that get you near to your target.

I haven't found anybody that keep the gearbox on its EV yet.
Probably I'm the only who think is useful to have more performance from Electric Powered bike or car.


----------



## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

leonheart said:


> Nice work, really
> I haven't read all this topic yet, but in the beginning I read that you want
> a really high speed motorcycle, do you think to keep the original 6 speed gearbox or are you going to remove that?
> I think you could have more acceleration and more top speed, in generally, more performance that get you near to your target.
> ...


Dont need gearbox. It is slow off standstill but Im not worried about that.
I would be seriously worried about the extra 15kg associated with having a gearbox. I sold the motor 2 years ago.
All I need to do is get some serious magnets for the motor then I can pump some amps in there.


----------



## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

leonheart said:


> I haven't found anybody that keep the gearbox on its EV yet.
> Probably I'm the only who think is useful to have more performance from Electric Powered bike or car.


Other than bikes, most EV conversions do indeed keep the transmission.


----------



## leonheart (Mar 2, 2011)

JRP3 said:


> Other than bikes, most EV conversions do indeed keep the transmission.


I didn't find so many EV with a transmission only for the electric motor performance and I think it could change so many specs about the EV.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Most conversions do keep the transmission, look through the evalbum.com or the garage here. If you are talking about production EV's they use higher revving AC motors and don't need a transmission, which is just extra weight and expense.


----------



## leonheart (Mar 2, 2011)

JRP3 said:


> Most conversions do keep the transmission, look through the evalbum.com or the garage here. If you are talking about production EV's they use higher revving AC motors and don't need a transmission, which is just extra weight and expense.


No, I'm talkin' about the EV conversions. Ok, there is the original transmission but the gear's ratio is really short and the motor torque is too much for the first or second original gear. I haven't already found nobody who have changed the final ratio to use every gear. I found just Amplux motorbike on youtube, and there is a very interesting performance.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

The thing is an ICE has all those gears because it needs them, an electric motor doesn't. I can use 1st and 2nd, but because it's an AC system and runs to 6500 rpm I just use 2nd most of the time from 0-65 unless I want to accelerate harder. I think Jack Rickard from EVTV.ME played with the ratio on his Porsche but I think he still felt there was no reason to use first. EV's just don't need all those gears


----------



## leonheart (Mar 2, 2011)

JRP3 said:


> The thing is an ICE has all those gears because it needs them, an electric motor doesn't. I can use 1st and 2nd, but because it's an AC system and runs to 6500 rpm I just use 2nd most of the time from 0-65 unless I want to accelerate harder. I think Jack Rickard from EVTV.ME played with the ratio on his Porsche but I think he still felt there was no reason to use first. EV's just don't need all those gears


Yes, I know That an EV don't need 6 gear but I see always many EV with a very low top speed. IMHO have a gearbox with just 3 very long rated gear could be a good thing to don't decrease the acceleration and have more top speed, with the same power.

I don't say that an EV NEED a gearbox, I say that it could be a nice idea (even if the gearbox is created only for a determinate Electric motor). Am I wrong?


----------



## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

There might be some circumstances where it could be beneficial but probably not many. I have no idea what my top speed is because it's not something I use and I haven't found a back road where I can fully test it.
Apologies to Ripperton for hijacking his thread


----------



## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

My horn weighs 10 grams.
4 piezo's in parallel run on 12v make a very weird noise but audible.
cant describe it but will try to get it in the next vid.


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## Evilsizer (Jan 25, 2010)

think someone can hear your horn in a car? wonder how loud that is, if not that loud. maybe consider this, if you can get it shipped to you.
http://www.goldmine-elec-products.com/prodinfo.asp?number=G18223

also rip, is this the motor you got? 
http://www.thunderstruck-ev.com/index.php?dispatch=products.view&product_id=147


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

Evilsizer said:


> think someone can hear your horn in a car? wonder how loud that is, if not that loud. maybe consider this, if you can get it shipped to you.
> http://www.goldmine-elec-products.com/prodinfo.asp?number=G18223
> 
> also rip, is this the motor you got?
> http://www.thunderstruck-ev.com/index.php?dispatch=products.view&product_id=147



I was riding up the street yesterday and there were kids playing in the street, I was approaching my place and there was a little girl running across my driveway not looking at me as she couldnt hear me so I hit the horn about 40m away and she heard it and looked.
This particular setup isnt as loud as a standard horn but it will do for TTXGP. I think Ive stumbled onto a new fad or something for the modders over on the R1 Forum.
Heres a 98db example on Ebay
http://cgi.ebay.com.au/MALLORY-SC62...at_Parts_Accessories_Gear&hash=item1e626ed831

That is the motor Evil but I wouldnt buy one just yet as the magnets in it are way too small and Fiorenza knows it now as Ive proven it to him by 
blowing up my 2 motors and getting much better performance by putting thicker magnets in. He may be back at the drawingboard right now.
Ive gone to 16mm thick and may even go to 22mm with a wider casing.
I cant show photos yet as Fiorenza comes on this forum and there are designs that I dont want to share for free.
I will say that this motor has big potential as long as bigger magnets go in so wait a while.


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## Evilsizer (Jan 25, 2010)

yea i understand about not being able to show it and all from your other post. any chance you can put that thing on a dyno for some numbers? with the current casing, what would you say is the thickest magnet you can fit in there.


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

Evilsizer said:


> yea i understand about not being able to show it and all from your other post. any chance you can put that thing on a dyno for some numbers? with the current casing, what would you say is the thickest magnet you can fit in there.


I could go to 20mm without widening the cases.
But not sure if its possible to make them that thick.


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

Controller has failed. Now shows both red and green lights on.
Did virtually nothing to provoke this.
Yesterday morning was working fine then in the afternoon no go.
doesnt look like will be going by this weekend so the bikes first outing
is already canceled. 
I am talking with Kelly albeit very slowly. they have taken all day to send 3 Emails. 
Going to try to reflash it again.


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

Reflash worked so back on the schedule


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## SplinterOz (Apr 13, 2011)

Here's hoping it is all good....


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

Yeah was a bit of a scare
Im looking at doing the Friday test session as well but could cost more.
Plan on coming back with blown magnets anyway
My custom magnets should be delivered 10th May.


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

Canadian thing claims to be worlds lightest Electric race bike
but Rippy's R1 is 5kg lighter HAha

http://www.wired.com/autopia/2011/04/amarok-p1-electric-motorcycle


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## drivin98 (May 9, 2008)

RIPPERTON said:


> Canadian thing claims to be worlds lightest Electric race bike
> but Rippy's R1 is 5kg lighter HAha
> 
> http://www.wired.com/autopia/2011/04/amarok-p1-electric-motorcycle


I think it's more of a matter that the author of the article is just hyping it hard since the guy who designed it is a friend of his. There are a few bikes around with very similar weights though. Just came across one this morning with an AC motor that weighs 145 kg.


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## dawnpatrol (Jul 11, 2010)

Ripperton - do you think the Canadian bike's cooling will work well enough? I am not convinced.

Hope you get better weather at Wakefield than here in SYD..it's been v wet..

Can't wait to hear how you get on with the track sessions.


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## SplinterOz (Apr 13, 2011)

Here is an update I posted on my blog and elmoto.net.

Just back from the first ever eFXC event. This was a shakedown event with 5 track sessions over 2 days. Three bikes were entered into the event however due to shipping issues only two made it for the weekend.

The first is the Catavolt entry using a modified Enertrac Hub motor and Headway 8ah cylindrical Cells. Best time on the weekend was around 1minute 29 seconds (note the lap record for 125 2-Strokes is 1:04). By the end of the weekend the motor seems to have failed and the controller was in a fault condition. I am sure Jon will post up more on his site.

Elmoto Racing - WakeField 023 by Splinter, on Flickr

The second bike, Ripperton is using the fairly new Motenergy ME0913 double stack motor and small form LiPo pouch batteries. This bike got stronger as the weekend went on with a final time of about 1:22. Daniel now has many many things he wants to adjust.

Elmoto Racing - WakeField 022 by Splinter, on Flickr

Next meet (July) is a full race and there should be 6 bikes there.

See all my photos here.


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

Thanks Tony you beat me to it. I just got home and will upoad a great onbike video tmrw, got to watch the MotoGP now..
All in all the Wakefield weekend was a great success which will allow the bikes development to go forward. there is a lot more potential in this motor and the whole bike too.


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## SplinterOz (Apr 13, 2011)

Can't wait to see the completed video and all your ideas.


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

RIPPERTON said:


> All in all the Wakefield weekend was a great success which will allow the bikes development to go forward. there is a lot more potential in this motor and the whole bike too.


Hey RIPPER,

Good job  Nice to see all that hard work paid off. When's your first race down there? 

Got a lot of questions, like top speed? Enough battery to go the distance? Post what you can (or want) 

Cheers,

major


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Yeah great job, keep it up!


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

Just did a few demo sessions at a round of the Australian Superbike series at Wakefield park south of Sydney. Bike went great.
I didnt have to put a spanner on the bike the whole weekend, well I did have to connect the laptop and reset some parameters.
The controller is still only set at 50% which is 500 amps. Ive just gone for a short ride on 700A and went heaps faster
A 6 kVa genny wouldnt charge my battery so had to find a vacant section of pits to get some power points that wouldnt trip out all the time.
heres a vid





http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YpkgXpNNo14


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

one more vid




http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L7sQ30AUCmI


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

At midday today on the spur of the moment I decided to go do a track day with the R1 at Eastern Creek. top speed at 700 amps was 162kmh but no idea of lap times. The bike was riding like a 125 and was a heap of fun.
winding temps were up at the 140C so need to look at more cooling
and maybe a different controller 144v 800 amps?.


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## SplinterOz (Apr 13, 2011)

Great progress... 162km/h is great! Would love to know the times but I suspect you are easily into the 125 and 250 laptimes.


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## dawnpatrol (Jul 11, 2010)

Great job on getting the bike so reliable so soon..it's great to get the updates..I am sure there are lot of people following this thread now..


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## Evilsizer (Jan 25, 2010)

thinking of the cooling side, why use a 1x120 or 2x120 computer rad, for water cooling the outside of the case of the motor. the rad would be on the small side, not add much weight to the bike. the only problem i see finding a way to make a heatsink or as they call it a waterblock to attach or wrap around the motor. maybe some flat copper tubing around the motor, just need a pipe bender for the rest of the routing.


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## Log1c (May 11, 2011)

Hey man, awesome thread. I've read it through a couple times now and I wanted to try to consolidate some of the info in it. Also, I really want to build an electric sportbike. So if you could answer some of these questions I would be appreciative.

1) What's the configuration of your battery pack? I saw you had 320 cells, how are they set up?
2) Do you have an approximate range (or how many laps can you do before recharging?)
3) What was the max speed you hit? (I thought I saw 160 kmh? Awesome!)
4) What is the current draw from the pack at top speed?


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

Log1c said:


> Hey man, awesome thread. I've read it through a couple times now and I wanted to try to consolidate some of the info in it. Also, I really want to build an electric sportbike. So if you could answer some of these questions I would be appreciative.
> 
> 1) What's the configuration of your battery pack? I saw you had 320 cells, how are they set up?
> 2) Do you have an approximate range (or how many laps can you do before recharging?)
> ...


33s12p 396 cells
the lipo prismatics are lying flat longitudinally with the bike 6 wide.
each cell connects directly to the next in series by the tab only , no bus bars.
I have done 71km on commuter mode using only regen for brakes average 45kmh.
some cells discharge quicker than the others and i only get to use 4.5 Ah out of the theoretical 7 cause I charge for 1.5 hours at 30 amps.
I could do 6 laps of Eastern Creek or 24km in race mode easy but could be more, maybe 8 laps.
160kmh top atm but will be more with custom magnets in and amps would up a bit.
dont have any meters on board but cells arnt getting hot.
after 4 laps flat out cells were barely 32C


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## Davetheliftie (Mar 20, 2011)

Nice work ripperton, Missed my chance to go to wakefield. What are the promoters planning to do about the power for race day. That pit power down there trips out if too many tyre warmers are plugged in.


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## zEEz (May 14, 2011)

Big thumb up for this very cool thread !
Nice to see that in quite short time a foggy dream became reality 

I must confess I bought from John F. a nice ME0907 too.
I'm really impressed by its massive quality at reasonable price!
And I'm quite happy of all the inner pics of its brother motor here on this thread 

Being very eagerly looking forward to install the motor on an enduro motorbike frame, I was thinking what to do about the 5kW versus 15kW peak rating 

From my RC outrunner experience I'm not so interested in putting stronger magnets, since they lead to higher torque and lower rpm/v as experimenting showed.

But I analyzed the mechanical drawings of the motor and I discovered that a simple KAPTON foil would be sufficient to separate the half motor containing the stator from the half with the rotor.
At this point with just few additional tricks we could create a sealed chamber containing the stator and we could add just one hole up and one down, tubes and a small radiator from an oil cooled motorbike motor to create a convective liquid oil stator cooling system for this nice motor ....

have fun!


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

$1400 for 24 magnets could make 3 rotors with 8 magnets each.
I am tempted to make a rotor with 16 of these ie 32mm thick


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

Heres a vid of the new RS35 double row drive chain I just put on the bike.
Had to make a billet 22t front sprocket from 7075 T6 and 74t rear sprocket from nylon. both sprockets will have to be remade due to prototyping errors.
The test was a quick blip to full throttle and timed rev down to stop.
I was expecting the RS35 to be quieter but if anything its the same or a bit louder but it is definitely smoother than the 520.The RS35 ratio is a bit shorter which doesnt really help, it just reduces top speed.
The 520 has almost twice the rolling resistance and a kilo heavier.
oh hay my bike just lost a kilo !!! 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jEnpEvaS_3s


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## zEEz (May 14, 2011)

hey, ripperton, I see you are very creative on the transmission side ... but there is any chance you are going to put a second mars in the bike for a twin motor configuration?
If you aim to break the 200kmph barrier I don't see any alternative ....
have fun!


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

I can now publish phase 1 designs as they dont work and I am moving on to phase 2 with the custom magnets
Axial air flow didnt work as it was transfering heat from the inlet coil to the outlet coil as you can see from the browny discoloration of the outlet coil.
What this does mean though is that these coils can handle 700A as long as they get fresh air ! so I am now going to phase 2 air flow with the custom magnets.
I can give a good report of Fiorenza's 4mm magnets as they seem to have not lost any of their strength even after being clouted with 1000A from my Kelly although one of them did get a few cracks. I though the outer magnets would be weaker than the inner but they are the same.
I didnt use a measuring devise to gauge the strength, just held a stack in each hand close to a sheet of steel. My custom single piece 16mm magnets are stronger even though they are 180 degree C and the 4mm's are 120C I think.
I was doing 160kmh at 700A on main straight of Eastern Creek and I think I once heard the chain jump the teeth of the front sprocket as I foolishly gave full throttle at low speed (30kmh). I have to use the throttle like a gearbox giving low throttle at low speed. The 7075T6 rotor halves I made showed no cracks and have used a similar design in phase 2. I was able to free spin the rotor up to 5400rpm on 1000A
Have contemplated using a different higher voltage lower amp controller 180v 800A.

Going racing at Eastern Creek on 2 July.


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

Some stator pics


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## zEEz (May 14, 2011)

great pics of the innermotor and very impressive the custom stator ...
By the way, Had you any problem of rotor imbalancing ???
Forgive an additional question: I understand you put there 125v and 1000A without particular problems (no smoke, no hiroshima, no plasma balls ...) ...
If we assume 90% efficiency (safe side) it would give 100kW (loaded battery) input power and 10kW heat production: this is like an array of 10 average hair dryers .......
pretty impressive !!!!


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

No I didnt need to balance but that was a fluke.
its 136volts and no problems there but the 1000A is a problem at low speed.
full throttle at anything below 60kmh and the controller will sense an overload in the windings and cut out.
Id rather go higher voltage and lower amps.
Ive asked Kelly if they could make a custom 300v 600A controller but they cant.
could get the 144v800A one they have. Its maxed out at 180v.


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## zEEz (May 14, 2011)

RIPPERTON said:


> No I didnt need to balance but that was a fluke..


cool, no rotor balance .... amazing ....
about the controller issue: if you have a good link to Kelly you could just suggest a simple software modification: they should use the shunt used for current reading in order to generate a limiter for the throttle signal.
To be more clear: you turn the throttle to maximum, but the real value passed to the motor is reduced in order to keep current to the motor below a preset value.
Alternative: you could buy 2 controllers and feed separately the 2 stators.
Just feed the single hall sensor with all wire in parallel except that you connect only one hall supply wire from one of the 2 controllers (red wire typically).

have fun! (thanks to your positive tests I'm going to try more than 400A to the <ME907> )


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## Zak650 (Sep 20, 2008)

Great photos and stories on your efforts! In a effort to cool the motor internals think of two seperate air flow paths, right and left sides seperated by the rotor. Air travels in the inner side of the coil shown in your last photo and is pumped outward by slots in the magnets and exits over the outside coils. If slots in the magnets cannot be ground or machined it might be possible to EDM the slots using a wire EDM or a sinker EDM with an arc shaped electrode.

Zak


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

Zak650 said:


> Great photos and stories on your efforts! In a effort to cool the motor internals think of two seperate air flow paths, right and left sides seperated by the rotor. Air travels in the inner side of the coil shown in your last photo and is pumped outward by slots in the magnets and exits over the outside coils. If slots in the magnets cannot be ground or machined it might be possible to EDM the slots using a wire EDM or a sinker EDM with an arc shaped electrode.
> 
> Zak


LOL
thats exactly what Ive done.
both coils get fresh air.
boundry layer on the magnet surface will move air outward.
no need for slots a smooth face will work.
Ive got 2 other features that will pump air but thats secret.
I had custom magnets made in China, they are EDM wire.


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

3 out of my 4 coils are shorting (2 motors)
the 2 coils I just pulled out that did Wakefield and Eastern Creek are continuous to the cores. No real surprise after putting 700A through them.
got a few quotes for rewinding, one was $800 and the other guy didnt want to touch it. So Im cornered into rewinding them myself.
This is practical as I can be sure to put the best unsulation in and then get the coils VPI enameled.
I bought another ME0913 off Jon the Catavolt guy so I have a set of coils to test the new rotor and magnets with.


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## Zak650 (Sep 20, 2008)

The ultimate electric motor rewiring material:

Copper tubing running coolant through the tubing! Water and high voltage and amperage electricity - What could possibly go wrong!


Of course you could cool it with dielectric fluid.

Zak


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## zEEz (May 14, 2011)

that is BAD !!! sorry to hear that ..... 
So I should go light with my me0907 ....

Rewinding is a pain, anyway ,,, I had once to rewind a stator coil for the CDI of an enduro Yam. Nerving to do it bymyself .... ending to bring it to a specialized company ... but indeed it ended melted and shorted after just 600 km of highwayride ..... I bought than an original replacement that lasted 800 km and then rewound again and got bored 

Bottom line: the thicker and expensive the enamel better it is, but you need to be skilled, patient and avoid sharp edges, crazy turns, etc .....
Lot of people from RC models can give you tips about rewiring .... A popular trick is to use multiple stranded wire to replace a single core ....

have fun and NEVER BRAKE


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

New magnets are in and working well with the new rotor.
It is flowing a lot of air but still needs ducting.
have done a few test rides on 1000A and has heaps of torque, maybe too much, still think it needs higher volts and lower amps.
have inquired about special pricing for Kelly controller through TTXGP reps here in Sydney.
here is phase 3 hall sensor mounting. Have flipped the hall rotor around so it faces inward and had to swap a few hall wires in the plug.

this is the worlds lightest liter bike rear wheel 10.1kg.
Kevlar belted Michelin Power ONE, Dymag carbon rim, no brake disc and MotoGP design sprocket.


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

3 cheers to all the members of the Sydney AEVA club who all pitched in and payed for half of our $950 TTXGP entry fee for the Sydney round.


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

was asked a question about my battery pack.
I havnt detailed my pack design too much cause
I like to wait with things like this cause proto ideas dont always work out. The design Ive used for my pack has to be changed cause it doesnt offer enough support for the cells and the pack is too hard to assemble. some of the cells have been pierced. The LiPo pack is strange in the way it charges up and down. on charge the cells all balance out perfectly as they reach max voltage but they discharge so unevenly Im only able to use 4.5kWh of the theoretical 7kWh cause 2 out of the 33 blocks reach minimum voltage way before the others. they were a runout superceded cell that I got cheap so I suppose they would be a bit out.
At least now I know which blocks I can reuse in my next pack which should be higher voltage lower amps like 42s6p which is 2 thirds the size of the existing pack and 4.5kWh. That plus a different case design... lots of work here.
I just finished a new ram air manifold that goes on the end of the motor case under the front sprocket. very tricky part but should improve cooling a lot.


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## zEEz (May 14, 2011)

that's nice ripper!
but I don't get why you avoid using the Winston Cells ...
From a theoretical and reliability point of view they should fit your bike!
ah, 1 more comment: pllleeaaassseeee!!! more pics ... they are so interesting ....


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

Heres the chain side Ram Air manifold cncd from 17mm thick Acetal plate.
with alloy ducting and alloy duct stay. The ducts are a snug fit on the manifold without hose clamps but the stay holds them on there.
The duct fittings are cncd from the same material and are glued on with araldite...lots of it.
it bolts onto the motor plate and seals against it and the motor case.
I finally settled on a chain drive but got an RK motocross chain without Orings, 500gr lighter than an Oring chain.
God I love Hot Glue.


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

My DIY build thread has technically more views than the build thread on the US R1 forum cause the first 6 pages of that are when it was still in Caveman format

http://www.r1-forum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=260271


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## zEEz (May 14, 2011)

RIPPERTON said:


> http://www.r1-forum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=260271


Cool, rip, ... so I got all the story ...
You made the e-conversion in an amazing short time since you
wrecked the combustion engine ... 

good luck with the future mods.


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

More stuff, Im just showing off now 
cncing the hall side ram air manifold
Held in the center by sprung bracket the hall wires sneak out through a notch top left
same duct stay as on the left.
SNORT


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## speedily (Mar 13, 2009)

nice work mr Pirrerton,


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

Heres my new fire extinguisher, D class model 571 Lithium
after the Munch went up at Silverstone TTXGP are asking for teams to bring these along at $770 a pop


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

this is what an engine rebuild on an electric bike looks like.
396 lipo cells all layed out. weed out the bad ones and replace them.

decided to reduce my pack size because I dont need all of it for the sprint races we are doing, only 6 laps, 24km. From 12 parallel to 10 which reduced the weight of the pack by 7.5kg (40.5kg). now 136v 43Ah 5.85kWh 4000 peak amps 330 cells
the R1 now weighes 135kg


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## ZX-E (Aug 31, 2009)

Have you monitored your battery temperatures at all Ripperton?


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

ZX-E said:


> Have you monitored your battery temperatures at all Ripperton?


Yes
I have temp strips on one of the top cells and they have never gone above 34C and that could have been ambient cause the sun was out that day.
theres a large hole in the tank cover so I can see the temp strip at a glance.
Also a temp strip on the controller and it has never gone above 40C


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## frodus (Apr 12, 2008)

Can you maybe actual temp sensor between cells in the middle of the pack? A little strip like that isn't very accurate. The cells on the outside of the pack cool differently than the ones in the center.

Pretty sick looking pack, great work.


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## SplinterOz (Apr 13, 2011)

Photo from today's race... Hope you like it Daniel...


Eastern Creek Racing12 by Splinter, on Flickr

Click on the link to see more photos


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

go the jetsons hum
except the Catavolt which has only wind noise

http://www.flickr.com/photos/splinter/5893841528/in/photostream/


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## SplinterOz (Apr 13, 2011)

Jetsons Hum... love it...


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

RIPPERTON said:


> ...except the Catavolt which has only wind noise...


Interesting. What motor(s) is it running?


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Enertrac's hub motor, no chain or belt 
http://green.autoblog.com/2011/01/2...catavolt-into-electric-motorcycle-racing-big/


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

First ever Electric bike race in Australia
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=usrpzbYAjn4


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

ZX-E said:


> Have you monitored your battery temperatures at all Ripperton?


Ok this time we got the temp strips to read 38C after 6 laps of racing 24km
and the pack was flat, forgot to measure overall voltage but some of the cells were 3v and all over the place. wished I hadnt taken that column out now. bike had lost power on last lap but no meltdown


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

RIPPERTON said:


> wished I hadnt taken that column out now. bike had lost power on last lap but no meltdown


I wondered about that when I saw you doing it. Any time to reinstall it? If not, you might try overcharging a tad to add a few more Wh. Maybe push the bike to the grid  Save everything you got. Turn it down a notch? Other than that, run what you brung 

I know what it is like to run short of electrons on the last lap and be overtaken just before the checkered. 

Good luck,

major


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

JRP3 said:


> Enertrac's hub motor, no chain or belt
> http://green.autoblog.com/2011/01/2...catavolt-into-electric-motorcycle-racing-big/


Thanks J. Hmmm, that would really, really, open the design possibilities with Scratch...


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

The competition (Chris Jones) replacing an Agni in the Ripperton Laboratory after Fridays practice session 

Soldered spray pattern on the belly pan.


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

Big Ass trophy for winning the historic first ever electric bike race in Australia

Second race on Sunday was reduced from 5 to 4 laps after I had stayed up till after midnight manually balancing each cell block with 3 RC chargers at very low amperage. Decided to resume individual charging the next day at the track with a friends lab power supply. Was able to pump 17 amps into each block. The pack looks a lot better now at low voltage even though after 5 laps was still at 120v from 134v full.
The competition virtually eliminated itself, I smelt burnt motor coming around T9 hairpin and found Chris Jones parked on the inside of T1 with yet another blown Agni being picked up by tenders. Catavolt fault coded one of its 2 Kelly controllers and was basically running on 1 controller with an unfamiliar rider on board, rider no1 broke collar bone in a previous race on his super motard.

I did a new personal best lap of 2.07 on the last lap by actually using full throttle on some exits. Was surprising how much power I wasnt using the whole weekend, the R1 really launches out of turns but that pushed the stator temps up to 150C.
time for water injection


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

Rear view from my bike in turn 2 lap 1 of Sunday race.
Black bike is Chris Jones and Amy Omara on Catavolt


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Great work all around. Glad to see all your efforts pay off.


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## rochesterricer (Jan 5, 2011)

Is it just me, or does it seem like the Agni motors go bad rather frequently? Maybe its just seems that way because so many bikes use them.


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## ev_nred (Sep 23, 2009)

nice job!!


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

RIPPERTON said:


> Big Ass trophy for winning the historic first ever electric bike race in Australia


Hey Ripper,

Congratulations  I've followed your build all these months. Hard work pays off. Keep at it.

major


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

rochesterricer said:


> Is it just me, or does it seem like the Agni motors go bad rather frequently? Maybe its just seems that way because so many bikes use them.


Hi roch,

I don't think it is just you  Racing can easily push motors past their limits. I think brushed PM motors are weak (speaking of durability) in these conditions and the Agni is fragile in certain areas. I am surprised they have fared as well as they have. Seemed like Voltron's first failure might have been heat related failure of the soldered coils and his second commutation failure. That's just guess work on my part from the reports.

Agni makes some different varieties of that motor. Some reinforced. I don't know which he used. Also I've seen quite a lot of effort go into tweaking those motors for race prep in regards to brush timing. A rush job replacement motor installation prior to the race may have contributed to his woes. 

You are correct that a lot of the TTXGP bikes run Agnis, especially in Europe. I don't think any of the NA bikes are using them this year. Several (3 or 4) did last year. And just Voltron down under. I don't see motor failures with other type motors in these races. Ripperton had trouble with his brushless months ago on the test track. And I know some AC20 induction motors had thermal cutback last season, but no failures. And at the FIM Laguna Seca race, one bike had multiple failures on his three motor Etek set up, but those are similar to the Agni, axial brushed PM.

Regards,

major


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

We tried to balance the 2 motors on Friday night after the first motor replacement as there is only one controller.
It got really confusing, after we got the brush timing right for each motor individually we found that at light throttle they were pulling different amps.
I think its easier when you have 2 controllers.
heres some more trackside vid.




http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Vw4Uv_fsw4


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## Zak650 (Sep 20, 2008)

Congradulations,

I really have to hand it to you for your efforts in improving the motor and technology. What kind of controller, pack voltage, and watts per cell did you end up using in your 2nd round race? How much power was left in your pack after the race? It looks like your new cooling scheme worked out well, if you have a comparison on the motor temp with the stock cooling versus your new path I am sure we would all like the info.

Zak


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

The new ramair probly stopped the motor from cooking..
After race 2 (5 laps) I took it home and did another 4km around the streets.
Im going to put 4 of these in the ends of the ducts to ensure air flow even at low speed.


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

eFXC racing at Eastern Creek
watch for battery pack going into bike at 7m5s

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DpAJP5FB500&feature=channel_video_title


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## jonescg (Nov 3, 2010)

Hi Daniel! Nice photos from the lab 

With respect to the Agni motor failures, it seems the first motor failure was me over-doing it by cranking too many amps through it. Fair enough, the controller is pretty darn powerful for even two Agnis. I dialled it back to 70% for the first race, and it did reasonably well. But on the second race I was getting familiar with the track and was harder on the throttle, earlier. Seems when the motors aren't balanced, they get progressively worse as the race goes on, eventually loading one motor completely - that's why the other motor remained fine.

The balancing really needed to be done on a dyno, or at least under substantial load. Jozzer has been putting an Agni motor tuning thread up over at Endless-Sphere, and it seems there were all sorts of brush and kV problems with several batches. Agni can supply me with two matched motors before the next eFX meet and they will be dyno tuned in Canberra just prior.

Agni bikes are still placing well in Europe, they just have Jozzer and Cedric there to tune them all  Down Under we have to fly blind a bit, but hopefully not a problem for next time. I'll definitely get some sticky boots for the weekend too. Those old battlaxes are like rocks. 

Already started thinking about the next racebike from a CBR1000RR  Oh man I really need a well paying job with lots of time off 

Hey thanks so much for all your help over in Sydney! It's might hard to work on a bike from the other side of the country.

See ya round!

Chris.


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

Thats good news about the motors Chris
Ive secured a 10% discount off my next Kelly controller (14801) with 70kerpm
and have brainstormed a new battery cell layout 42s9p 378 cells 45kg
175v 38Ah 6.7kWh which will be exactly the same size as my present pack only slightly shorter and with both terminals at the top so this one will be quick release. 
Also just finished a new smaller diameter rotor which has more room for bigger fan blades and better cooling.
See you at Winton


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## jonescg (Nov 3, 2010)

Kelly have been really good to me so far. I got the upgraded controller for half price if I sent the older one back. Not a bad deal, although in hindsight the old controller probably wouldn't have toasted my motors  At least I will no doubt be able to salvage the casings and magnets by replacing the stuffed rotors and brushes. Still expensive, but not a complete write-off.

How have you terminated your individual cells? I notice that Turnigy has individual 40 C cells for sale. This is great as it means paralleling the cells is as simple as stacking 4 or 5 of them together. But short of a small stainless or even nylon bolt and a couple of washers, I don't know if there is convenient way of joining them up outside of some special soldering technique.

AEVA meeting on Tuesday night, and I noticed I am on the agenda  I will raise the subject of financial assistance to get to the next race, but we'll see how much support there is. The Sydney branch was clearly VERY helpful to all of us last weekend.

See ya,
CHRIS


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

Terminal to terminal clamped between the acetal frame and an aluminium balance bar 1.6mm th. Each tab has to be hole punched and some shortened.
this is the 33s12p pack where each cell block is 6 wide and 2 high so the upper tabs have to reach around the lower ones.
The new 42s9p pack has blocks that are 3 wide and 3 high so the upper tabs will have to reach over 2 other cells. Ive checked they just reach. tabs are 20mm wide and 21 long.


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## SplinterOz (Apr 13, 2011)

Daniel, great photos that really is a neat way to get this battery pack together.


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## frodus (Apr 12, 2008)

That's the best assembly of those pouch cells I've seen yet! 
Great work man!

Are those cells you bought individually? where'd you source them?


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

Thanks
Im making a recommendation to TTXGP to standardize quick release battery packs.
1: reduced lithium concentration for reduced fire hazard
2: smaller packs = lighter weight bike
3: single catagory max pack size is 7kWh
4: compulsory pit stops for long races. IOM pit near Sulby Bridge
5: pack is removed in a meltdown for better extinguisher access and
the bike is not destroyed
6: endurance racing


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

frodus said:


> That's the best assembly of those pouch cells I've seen yet!
> Great work man!
> 
> Are those cells you bought individually? where'd you source them?


Thanks Travis
I got them from Batterist in Korea they were 4.35Ah XQ runnout cells and damn cheap at $8.60 each Fedexed to Sydney. He might have a few left but not enough to make a pack. You will have to get the 4.5Ah XQ at about $17 each
[email protected]


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## jonescg (Nov 3, 2010)

I like the mechanical connections idea. Solder is just too much stuffing around. My next bike will have something like your plastic crate, except optimised for the A123 20Ah cells. 110 of them in series should be good for a decent AC motor arrangement, and would be the full depth of the bike .

Right now I'm working on getting my three Elcons working together to deliver almost 4 kW of charging power. Hope Winton has some decent power supply


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

360v  whoa there
3 elcons would be good just make sure you have 3 separate plugs so you can use 3 separate power points
My 3kW Elcon is 2 1.5kW chargers screwed together but it only had 1 lead so I just added one and it will run off 2 10A power points

Winton race track seems to be inside a town so it should have a better supply than Wakefield


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## skeezmour (Nov 6, 2008)

Wish I could come down to the track and give you some assistance. Don't think I can get my boss to pay for me to do that 

I will be at the race helping the teams at Laguna Seca (Sorry Mazda Raceway) with up to 18kw of charging goodness!


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

frodus said:


> That's the best assembly of those pouch cells I've seen yet!
> Great work man!
> 
> Are those cells you bought individually? where'd you source them?


Heres another potential supplier
http://www.ygspower.com/en/ProductDetail.asp?bookID=1386
see if they will sell you single cells


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## jonescg (Nov 3, 2010)

The longer, and opposite pointing tabs on those cells look pretty convenient. I have had a look at those Turnigy cells and I'm leaning that way more than A123s for my next build, mostly because the small format means you can make them fit better in a bike. Maximum stack height would be about 720 mm for a Fireblade for example. Any more would seriously affect the handling I would imagine. 

Daniel - When we get to Winton I'll have to pick your brain about your acetal pack, and how you machined it. Got a stack of ideas that are bound to fail without some advice


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## frodus (Apr 12, 2008)

just make sure you don't take the vendors word for it that the cells are good. Find a good way to put them under a load. Charge them up fully and then discharge them and look at voltage drop. I know Jozzer has experienced quite a high rate of failed cells when using turnigy packs.

Go direct to the source too, I think Haiyin makes Turnigy. I think Enerland makes the cells ripperton is buying.


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## skeezmour (Nov 6, 2008)

frodus said:


> just make sure you don't take the vendors word for it that the cells are good. Find a good way to put them under a load. Charge them up fully and then discharge them and look at voltage drop. I know Jozzer has experienced quite a high rate of failed cells when using turnigy packs.
> 
> Go direct to the source too, I think Haiyin makes Turnigy. I think Enerland makes the cells ripperton is buying.


 
FYI This is what comes up if you go to www.enerland.com (redirect to A123 systems)


Effective January 24th 2011, A123 Systems’ subsidiary, Enerland, no longer manufactures or sells RC products.
*Products sold under the brand names A123Racing, Enerland and PolyQuest have been discontinued. *






















 

This includes all Lipo products, including our XQ, XP, LP, MX, XF cells, as well as our cylindrical cells, car, heli, boat packs, chargers, and accessories. 

We'd like to thank our RC customers for their loyalty and support. Happy racing! ​​


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## frodus (Apr 12, 2008)

so are these cells all old stock?


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## grayballs (Aug 27, 2008)

jonescg said:


> When we get to Winton I'll have to pick your brain about your acetal pack, and how you machined it. Got a stack of ideas that are bound to fail without some advice


I'd like to see more detail about this pack and it's contruction,,,,, amazing work!


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

All of Enerlands LiPo tooling I think was sold off to another company by A123 (global corporate asshole) when they took over and decided to go on a nano path.
I dont know what the new company is called but the same guy (Batterist) is dealing them.
The cells I have are old runnouts that I got on a "sponsorship deal" at $8.60 each shipped but they have turned out ok. Cant complain.
Batterist's current model pricing is quite steep and YGS are slightly cheaper
The YGS 4500mha is $13.30 plus shipping


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

http://cgi.ebay.com.au/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=300564846442&ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT
I think Im onto something here, multi channel LiPo charger
$37 AUD for a 5v 40A power source with trim pot
v range from 4.05 to 5.75 so no good for LiFePo4
If I get 42 of these things ($1550) then rig up 2 spike boards
that sit on the front and the back of my R1 pack when its out of the bike
sitting on the ground. The spikes contact with each countersunk screw on the series clamp of each cell and charge each cell to 4.2v balanced at 40A.
Takes me about an hour and 20 mins to charge with the 30A Elcon so this should take 55mins.


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

Neodymium crash
$140 down the drain
was handling some of the custom magnets after dismantling the rotor.
2 of them got out of hand and sparks flew as they crashed together.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Damn that's a shame. Seems as if you've been struggling with magnet issues from the beginning. Ever consider AC induction?


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

JRP3 said:


> Damn that's a shame. Seems as if you've been struggling with magnet issues from the beginning. Ever consider AC induction?


Not really struggling
it goes with the terrain, these arnt the first Ive crashed and probly wont be the last. sooner or later you slip up.

wouldnt put an induction motor in a race bike, too heavy

Apparently there was an L2 fire extinguisher in Australia all along, down in Melbourne at Chubb fire.
hauled it up here for $970


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## jonescg (Nov 3, 2010)

Bugger about the magnets Daniel  At least Neodymium isn't as rare as some of the other rare-earths. If I recall Neodymium is about as common as Nickel or copper. So they spark when then disintegrate? Cool!


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

RIPPERTON said:


> wouldnt put an induction motor in a race bike, too heavy


What's your current motor weight and max power?


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

JRP3 said:


> What's your current motor weight and max power?


They are currently at 15kg and am adding water cooling jackets (500gr)
to the backs of the stators.
dont know what power they can handle
At the Eastern Creek event I rode with a blown coil the whole weekend.
was getting a lot hotter than the good one so couldnt go real hard with it.
pulled motor down afterwards and it was brown like the other one.
Had controller set at 80% (800A)and was using only 80% throttle (640A)
86kW at the motor, dont know what at the wheel


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## frodus (Apr 12, 2008)

Well, depends. You don't just multiply motor amps x volts x throttle % to get kw .... you need battery side amps times battery side volts.

Is that where you measured or did you measure via the controller?


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

frodus said:


> Well, depends. You don't just multiply motor amps x volts x throttle % to get kw .... you need battery side amps times battery side volts.
> 
> Is that where you measured or did you measure via the controller?


I didnt measure
I just go off what I set the controller at. 135 battery volts 640 controller amps = 86.4kW
The controller wont pull more than 700A battery side
even though it will put out 1000A motor side.

Im getting new controllers now KBH14601. 144v 600A but will be running them on 175v. By the end of the year it will be on 2 motors 2 controllers. New pack will be 42s9p for sprint races and 42s12p for IOM


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## frodus (Apr 12, 2008)

Ahhh, yeah, unfortunately we can't do that. Battery amps and motor amps are almost never equal, and won't be unless the kelly is PMWing at 100% (which doesn't neccessarily mean 100% throttle).

So to calculate the kw to the motor, you'd need to measure power in (battery amps x battery volts) or power out (motor amps x motor volts x duty cycle).

I have no doubt it's high though, but it's one of those things that you'd need to measure. What do you have for pack monitoring? Cycle Analyst?


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

frodus said:


> Ahhh, yeah, unfortunately we can't do that. Battery amps and motor amps are almost never equal, and won't be unless the kelly is PMWing at 100% (which doesn't neccessarily mean 100% throttle).
> 
> So to calculate the kw to the motor, you'd need to measure power in (battery amps x battery volts) or power out (motor amps x motor volts x duty cycle).
> 
> I have no doubt it's high though, but it's one of those things that you'd need to measure. What do you have for pack monitoring? Cycle Analyst?


Only voltage monitors.
Dont have any analysts or even ameters.
When Im happy with the cooling system I will chassis dyno the bike and that will be the best measure of whats happeneing


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## frodus (Apr 12, 2008)

It's amazing what you've gotten out of those little motors man, keep it up! I saw over on ES the picture of you and catavolt and jonescg. Great lookin bikes.


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## jonescg (Nov 3, 2010)

Thanks Trav 

Hopefully I will have enough money, and Agni will have enough motors, that we can all be back out on the track again in September.

Daniel - two of those brushless motors on your bike will be a formidable weapon! Best of luck with it!

I'm still trying to find an easily-robbed bank to cover the cost of a Powerphase125 motor for my next bike  This dual motor business is not as easy as it looks.


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

> It's amazing what you've gotten out of those little motors man


Dont speak too soon, at that pace the motors have to be nursed around the track as they are right on the edge of over heating.
They really need water cooling AND air cooling. Wait till you see the jackets Ive made. real simple mod. will run 1 or 2 of these little pumps









and this transmission radiator under the seat like a Benelli Tornado










Going to water cooling and to a smaller controller might fix the problem.
The new controllers will put out 105kW





jonescg said:


> I'm still trying to find an easily-robbed bank to cover the cost of a Powerphase125 motor for my next bike  This dual motor business is not as easy as it looks.


Good luck trying to get one of those.
You usually have to be General motors to get them to answer your Emails.
God knows how Yates got one $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

That's a neat looking little pump. What is it, what are the specs, where did you get it?


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

JRP3 said:


> That's a neat looking little pump. What is it, what are the specs, where did you get it?



water pump from coffee machine off Ebay
http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/DC-12V-M...100883%2B250854100883&po=&ps=63&_qi=RTM636422

says its new but its suspiciously brown stained.
Im thinking I only need very low pressure and low flow
Also got one of these if the little ones dont work










http://cgi.ebay.com.au/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=280696899835&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT


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## frodus (Apr 12, 2008)

Yeah, the limits of these motors start getting limited by how well they can get rid of heat. Lots of power going to those things, and inefficiency can be pretty high, depending on where you are on that motor curve.

Keep it up guys!


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

The R1 is going back together slowly as Im doing lots of mods at once.
heres one of the new 144v 600A Kellys with aluminium braid power cables
to Kilovac and fuse holder.
Heres a layout of the water cooling system with tiny pump and see through hoses and Hyundai clutch reservoir as a tank.
Theres a few leaks which need fixing. Hope I get all this theoretical stuff converted to practical before September.


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## jonescg (Nov 3, 2010)

Hope it works out for you mate! Otherwise there's a lot of plastic tubing to melt right where you don't want it to. 

I have been assured two new, matched Agnis, but thanks to China's stance on rare earth metals (and the slow development of mines elsewhere) the cost of the motors have gone up by about $310


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

jonescg said:


> Hope it works out for you mate! Otherwise there's a lot of plastic tubing to melt right where you don't want it to.
> 
> I have been assured two new, matched Agnis, but thanks to China's stance on rare earth metals (and the slow development of mines elsewhere) the cost of the motors have gone up by about $310


So you going to make it to Winton ?


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## jonescg (Nov 3, 2010)

That's the plan!


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

Just got water cooling system finished so went for a trackday
down the Creek. no photos but great on bike video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uzHUcvzHJVU
did all 6 sessions but only 4 laps per session (16km)
except one session did 5 laps (20km) and last session did 6 and half laps 26km and bottomed the pack but didnt damage any cells.
was able to recharge with just enough time between sessions.
water cooling went well but needs 2 fans on the under seat radiator to move the air properly as I cant put it up in front of the battery. 
had a few leaks but turned out to be very effective at removing heat from the stators.
bike still weighes 135kg and as you can see
absolutely chops up anything in turns.


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

The windings are running at about 80 to 90 C now and with the new 144v 600A controller still on the old 136v pack would be putting out 80 odd kW minus motor losses. 
Smaller controller is working harder and was caught up at the 40C mark after a session so it might need a fan too.
Torque is really punchy out of turns but did over amp it twice by giving too much throttle so have to roll throttle on slowly.
the coils are running 50C cooler and thats about what the radiator runs at... funny that.
but the rad isnt getting enough air under the seat so have to put some 180mm computer fans on it (0.9A draw for 2 fans).


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## jonescg (Nov 3, 2010)

Looks like you just made a fairly big advance there Dan. 90'C versus 140'C is a big difference  Well done!

Did the Mars motor come with a water jacket or did you have to fabricate one in there? Some noooobs out on the track there with you, but whatever, they were going faster than I was  I need to get some sticky tyres for the next round, and maybe a faster rider. Preferably someone who knows how to steer an old dunger around. I'm also dropping my reduction drive to 14:54 so the motors aren't working so hard for so long.

Anyway, you've done well mate!


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## SplinterOz (Apr 13, 2011)

Dan, Looks like you have taken a fair bit of time off your lap times compared to the race...


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

jonescg said:


> Did the Mars motor come with a water jacket or did you have to fabricate one in there? Some noooobs out on the track there with you


The Motenergy casings didnt have any jackets in them so I made some.
would be much simpler to make casings with a cooling circuit built in.
Yeah the tourists make me look fast but I only took 2 seconds off my eFXC time. did a 2.05 with the water cooling but also went from 800 to 600 amps in the controller area. just got to make the 175 v battery now


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

Funny thing happened in scrutineering.
I rode the bike to the scrutineering pit with helmet on, rolled in there, got off the bike and stood beside it, left the controller on, warning beacon flashing
There were 4 guys there who walked over and started scratching their heads cause they had never checked an electric bike before. One guy walked up to the throttle and went to give it a flick  as you do to check if the cable is binding, exactly at the same time I realized the bike was active.
My right hand went flying toward the ign switch, it was like a race between my right hand and his, I had to get to the switch before he flicked the throttle !!!......he beat me but only by a micro second. the bike chirped the rear wheel jerked forward and stopped dead and we looked at each other and said fark. Then I explained the purpose of the flashing beacon.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Maybe a kill switch lanyard that disables the bike when you are off it, either voluntary or otherwise?


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

JRP3 said:


> Maybe a kill switch lanyard that disables the bike when you are off it, either voluntary or otherwise?


Nah, Ive got one of those but never use it


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## jonescg (Nov 3, 2010)

I trust you explained it was live? If so, well, yeah, you can't fix stupid... 

Apparently one of the Euro TTX-GP rounds had a bike go flying due to exactly the same reason. And that was with the flashing light and lanyard...


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

There is so little familiarity with this new technology that I can see the same thing happening again. No noise to tell people it's running and no neutral could easily equal disaster. I'm the last one to play safety police but you had a near miss and got lucky this time.


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

tighten your bolts !!!!!!
after adding the charging cable to the group of cables at one end of the fuse holder I probly forgot to give it a good tighten. So that entire connection would have been glowing red hot while I was enjoying myself flying around the Creek.
It produced a smell like cooked windings but also like wood burning ???
Even saw a whiff of smoke come up as I pulled into the pits.
That would have been the bakalite stuff.
I put it down to another set of toasted stators.
this shot isnt how I left it, was properly assembled and all the lugs were stacked and space right just not tightened fully. didnt notice it till 3 days after the track day.
400 amp fuse (not blown) and melted alloy washer


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## DawidvC (Feb 14, 2010)

That is nasty!
You are right about checking connections - it is the biggest cause of failure of electrical systems. It cannot be repeated often enough.

Dawid


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

1 water pump, 1x 120mm fan and 2x 180mm fans draw total 1.25 amps.
can still keep my 4 cell A123 12v pack.


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## jonescg (Nov 3, 2010)

Do you have a DC-DC converter to keep the 12 V auxiliary battery charged?

Looks trick Dan 


Hey - my good news - The Perth Branch of the AEVA have sponsored me $250 towards my race entry fee for Winton! Sweet! Very pleased about that. Could be a bit more (or a lot more, given it's a long way away) but I'm happy to be representing the West 

All I need now is for the motors to be shipped at a reasonable price and we can start to make a race of it. Oh, I might have a better looking tank cover ready by the time I send the chargers over too. Anything will be a lot better than the crap I have on it now.


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

nope no DCDC
I just charge the 12v whenever I need.
I think the 120mm fan on the controller is too big.
with no room for the air to flow down the heat sink
most of the air actually comes back out past the
tips of the fan blades.
Ive found that there is a lot more power
now that the fuse holder is tightened properly


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## Evilsizer (Jan 25, 2010)

why did you choose the 180mm fans and what brand/model are they?


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

Evilsizer said:


> why did you choose the 180mm fans and what brand/model are they?


Wanted to completely cover the radiator.
turns out they arnt that powerfull but should do the job for now
they are Silverstone. high glass content in the mouldings
very good quality.

http://cgi.ebay.com.au/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=310338174975&ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT


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## Evilsizer (Jan 25, 2010)

yea with a fan like that it isnt going to overcome a whole lot of resistance from the rad. im not sure of the fin density of the rad your using but that would be s deciding factor in choosing a fan. from what i can tell the rad looks pretty thin in thickness, that would then lead me to think it is a high fin density. as in a high number of fins per square inch, they higher the density the higher the pressure the fan needs to be. though dont confuse that with air flow or CFM, since you can get higher pressure fans but still have the same CFM. it does come down to the fan blade curvature and of course the fans motor.

i have one i can really suggest but is all plastic and heavy duty plastic. the fan is 120x120x38mm, will be able to overcome the rad's resistance due to the a high fin density. also i dont know the thermal load you need to cool or the temps your aiming for.

the main fan i would suggest is this one
http://www.performance-pcs.com/cata...e=product_info&cPath=36_403&products_id=27971
others i would have you consider as it is from another quality fan manufacture, all these are metal fans, still 120*120*38.
http://www.performance-pcs.com/cata...e=product_info&cPath=36_403&products_id=24236
http://www.performance-pcs.com/cata...e=product_info&cPath=36_403&products_id=24238
http://www.performance-pcs.com/cata...e=product_info&cPath=36_403&products_id=24237
http://www.performance-pcs.com/cata...e=product_info&cPath=36_403&products_id=24234
this company will ship outside the USA.

i recall you using a pump and dont remember the model ect. is that pump able to over come the restriction of the rad? are you able to tell just how much flow it is able to provide in that setup? just looking at the whole loop, as you could improve temps by possibly changing out the pump. this depends on the pump and how restrictive the rad it internally. not so sure on the second pump you got but that is kind of large. for the price you couldnt go wrong, should you need something stronger then the second one and need it to take up less space. i would have you consider this pump,
http://www.performance-pcs.com/cata...e=product_info&cPath=59_201&products_id=20655
that pump can handle alot of restriction in the waterloop.


just trying to offer come ideas in case the cooling isn't up to task. first thing for sure i would change is the fans for sure. make a shroud for the rad and use the 120*120*38 fans. as i really think those fans are not cutting it for you now.


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

Thanks ES
the 180 Silverstone will pump 150cfm at 2.4mm h2o.
http://www.silverstonetek.com/product.php?pid=222&area=usa
doesnt sound like much pressure.
they came with reostats which I wouldnt use on the fans but might use on the pump.

Kelly suggest using 2x 120mm fans on the controller ??????
way overkill. Ive put a single 80mm in the center with a sheet alloy duct.
even 1x 120mm fan is too much and regurgitates half the air.


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## Evilsizer (Jan 25, 2010)

yea a 120mm may be to much but for the same air flow the 120mm will be quiter then the 80mm. also if you used a reo on the 120mm single with duct, you could control how much air flow you get. that way if you needed the extra air cooling you have in at the twist of a knob, if you wanted. 

all ideas, just dont know if your setup will need them. i like to be better safe then sorry when it comes to cooling my PC. your in a way basicly using computer cooling parts via the fan but the pump i would be scared of. LOL


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

3 attempts and 2 days to get the right controller cooler.
from 163gr (1.6mm alloy) down to 38gr (0.6mm alloy). and the 80mm fan would be 50gr lighter than the 120mm.

M5 screws from inside hold the fan.


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## jonescg (Nov 3, 2010)

That alloy plate seems to be the right idea - channel the hot air along the sink and vent it out through the fan. All a bit tough to keep a good linear flow when the air outside is rushing past at 140 km/h!


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

Well here goes the new LiPo pack frame.
After a week of designing the cell pocket shape and getting the tool paths right I can finally sink my end mill into this 21mm thick slab of acetal ($120 worth). all week the new pack was 42s9p and only today I decided to go 44s9p due to having no management the slackness of the LiPo cell only charge up to an average of 4.1v. Plus the new Elcon Smart Charger can be dialled in to charge anything from 50v to 192v. So I will charge to 178v or something.
The new pack has exactly the same number of cells as the old (396) and will be exactly the same shape and weight but will have both Pos & Neg terminals up the top on the back face.


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## jonescg (Nov 3, 2010)

Looks good mate. I was wondering, can you do me a favour and measure the inside of your R1 frame for me? I am drawing up some plans for a battery pack for my next machine and I need to know what size pack I can fit in there. I haven't decided on a donor chassis just yet but the R1 and the GSXR thou are good candidates. Would a 290 mm by 330 mm rectangle comfortably fit inside the frame of the bike?

Cheers,
CHRIS

PS Will hear from Agni tonight as to whether it's going to be a two bike race or a three bike race  Best case scenario they ship the motors from India on Friday.


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## MalcolmB (Jun 10, 2008)

Hi Daniel

I'm interested in your choice of Acetal for your battery rack as I've been reading through material specs the last few days, trying to decide what to use for support plates on a headway-type pack.

Price is a big consideration for me, so it looks like the main contender is Nylon 6. It has about half the impact strength of Acetal, but otherwise the mechanical and thermal properties are fairly close. The main drawback is that nylon likes to absorb water, so you have to allow for some expansion. Just wondering if there were any other factors steered your choice?

Given an unlimited budget I would probably opt for PEEK because of its fire resistance (£500 for half a square metre...).


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

jonescg said:


> Would a 290 mm by 330 mm rectangle comfortably fit inside the frame of the bike?


nope too big
its an odd shape
you can measure it at Winton

Malcolm, Acetal being harder machines very cleanly with little burrs or dags so there is little cleaning up after cutting.


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

right in the middle of cutting the back wall the spindle decides to spit its bearings out. 3 new Nachi's for $12 and actually never been this quiet,
Of course the original bearings had no shields or seals OR grease. Dont know how they lasted so long but they were very noisy. Can actually hear they induction hum now, 18,000rpm, sweet


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

Havnt had time to post, been flat out Finished the new battery.
The Kelly doesn't like the higher voltage, makes the motor jerk likes its missfiring, don't know if it's damaged. It's not the controller cause Ive tried both of them.
I'm posting from Winton and the bike limped through qualifying and didn't finish the race, did one lap.
I've tried also replacing the hall sensor and no change.
So now I'm trying lowering the battery voltage by moving the neg terminal
Down a few cells.
I ran this controller all day at Eastern Creek on the old battery, 135v and it went well.
Hoping for better results.
Voltron beat Catavolt in today's race


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

Both of my 14601 have the same problem which is likely some fets are blown
very jerky on takeoff and vibrating under load.
I put one of Catavolts controllers in this morning (same model) and ran fine and smooth.
Have reported the fault to Fany but she (?) isnt making much sense.
I get 2 different levels of English in her Emails like sometimes someone else is replying in her name who doesnt speak English as well as she does.
Heres transcript

"Hi Daniel, 

Thanks for the info.
Actually 175V is a little high for KHB14601 controller.
We said it could work between 18V and 180V.
If we think the sample error,maybe the undervoltage is below 180V.
If you saw 600A 175V after starting-up,it is not a good phenomenon.
I guess both controllers are good.
You may measure the resistance from B+ to phase A,B,C,and from Phase A,B,C to B-.
You may make sure all the wires are disconnected before measuring.

Thanks,
Fany "

Ive asked if they can take the 14601's back and replace it with one 14801 as I no longer plan on a dual motor setup.
hope this happens before Wakefield on 7th Oct.


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

I have connected my motor phase cables directly to the controller busbars.
My friends say this will send big back EMF surges into the controller.
anyone else have any input ?


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## DawidvC (Feb 14, 2010)

Connecting the motor direct removes the cable inductance, so voltage spikes should be lower, not higher - if the controller could handle the original setup with cables without blowing up, removing the cables would be all to your benefit. (There are some companies selling industrial motors with the drive built into the space the connector box normally goes, and some ehub-motors for bikes have the controller built entirely into the motor, so it is workable).

In my experience the longer the cable, the worse your problems with surges and other phenomena. Just my 0.02c worth

Dawid


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## Semper Vivus (Apr 13, 2011)

DawidvC said:


> Connecting the motor direct removes the cable inductance, so voltage spikes should be lower, not higher - if the controller could handle the original setup with cables without blowing up, removing the cables would be all to your benefit. (There are some companies selling industrial motors with the drive built into the space the connector box normally goes, and some ehub-motors for bikes have the controller built entirely into the motor, so it is workable).
> 
> In my experience the longer the cable, the worse your problems with surges and other phenomena. Just my 0.02c worth
> 
> Dawid


Hello,
because you talk about real life experience, there might be also other things that play a roll. In theory a series inductance work as a low pass. Voltage spikes are caused by the current peaks while switching. In an inductance the current can't jump. So it should avoid the voltage spikes. But I would assume this cable inductance is very low compared to the motor inductance?
Of course a longer wire will work as a better antenna and will emit electromagnetic radiation. That is the reason why the cable between an inverter and motor should be short and shielded.

Kind regards,
Tom


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

And Fanys English suddenly improves, definitely the understudy answering her Emails for him

"Hi Daniel, I think two emails from you are conflict each other.
If the controller from Catavolt can work well,the resistance shouldn't be 140 milliohm.
Did you disconnect all the motor wires when you measured the resistance?
Please measure output of J2 pin7 vs J2 pin3 when you only apply 12V+/12V- for J2 pin1 vs J2 pin2.
Yes,I know it is urgent.So please help me to answer my questions asap.
Yes,175V is not a good volt for 144V controller.
At the most it should be 168-169V.
Please let us know your thoughts.
Kind Regards,
Fany"

Anyway the website says the max voltage for this troler is 180v so 
Taking the bike to a friends place tmrw for an oscilloscope reading...


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

It will be interesting to hear how they think a controller advertised for 180V shouldn't be used at 175V. Probably 180V is a momentary max voltage and operating voltage should be well below that, but then they shouldn't advertise it as a 180V controller. Kelly seems to often list specs their products can't really handle.


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## DawidvC (Feb 14, 2010)

I think the marketing guys saw that it will withstand 180V, thats why they advertise it as such. Ripperton, that email you got makes me think the engineering people believe it to be only a 144V controller.


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## Jozzer (Mar 29, 2009)

Don't they sell it as a 144v controller and Ripperton saw 180v max on the spec sheet? To the best of my knowledge Kelly have never sold or advertised anything higher than 144v controllers..
180v is the maximum voltage for a full charged pack, with a little headroom for regen on top.


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

Im not sure 175v is a problem but Ive reinstalled one of the controllers in my bike and will run the pack to bottom and see if it runs any smoother.
Here are 2 Oscilloscope shots that dont show anything obvious.
Ive mounted the controller on acetal plate to insulate it and raised it up
away from the cooling hose. The phase busbars were touching the hose
and may have been shorting through the silicon hose (1mm) into the water, dead short to backs of stators.


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## zEEz (May 14, 2011)

the small series inductance offered by a short cable run between controller and motor is often helping the controller not to blow ... since it is effectively filtering out very fast spikes of voltage that can reach the controller mosfets, if that piece of cable is missing, and make them to age faster or even catastrophically explode .... 

If a controller is used with mosfets that are not having voltage specs well above the battery voltage, often the application notes suggest to use small series inductors (or small run of cables) between controller outputs and motor, particularly when the motor has low armature resistance.

That said, given your application is very intermittent and high taxing the components in nature ... it is impossible to predict the outcome.

Just as a sidenote, from your scope pics it is very easy to see the voltage spikes present in your system. Not having a scale to compare with and the lack of precisely performed measurements, it is impossible to give figures ... nevertheless they are there, quite visible, and probably they rise the max voltage seen by the mosfets by something like 30% ....

have fun!


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## Jozzer (Mar 29, 2009)

Your running 42 Lipo cells in series? The controller is suited to 40 in series max, that extra 8.4v full charged makes a lot of difference. With voltage spikes on top you are probably bouncing off several software limits in the controller.


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

Jozzer said:


> Your running 42 Lipo cells in series? The controller is suited to 40 in series max, that extra 8.4v full charged makes a lot of difference. With voltage spikes on top you are probably bouncing off several software limits in the controller.



44 cells in series 9 parallel.
I rode it yesterday (170v) and its rough below 80kmh but after that it absolutely takes off like a rocket and very smoothly.
You have to nurse it up to 80 then its fine.


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

Controller runs fine when its cold, ie pulls smoothly from 0 but after 5 minutes it starts to get a vibration in the motor at low speed.
Anyway I recharged the pack to 175v and went for a ride...and ended up pushing it back. the controller finally quit. Sending them both back to China.

Also tried pulling more amps battery side, turned it up to 100% and also 100% motor side. Not a good idea, taxes the cells a lot and I think one block (9 cells) caved so here is the replacement procedure. They show up on the volt monitors as a low voltage block.
Pack out and on the ground, about 5 minutes.

remove the front wall section covering the suspect cell block and
slide the cells out the front

test the suspect cells by charging them up and see if they hold a charge.
These went up to 4.1v and dropped straight back to 3.8, no good.

Then once its back together, bring the new cells back down to the same voltage as all the others. Here the new cells are n0. 1, slightly higher.
connect a LiPo charger balancer and pull out some energy at 5 amps each

This shot you can see my new Elcon 4kW in the background. Has cnced alloy covers and 2x 120mm 240v fans blowing both inside directly on the fets and outside down the heatsink


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

Better shot of Elcon.
This will charge anything from 50v up to 192v, perfect.


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

heres one of the grand total of 4 laps I did at Winton.
$960 entry fee, thats $240 a lap but Ive asked for the entry fee to be transfered to the next race.
This eFXC thing is so expensive, for that money I could get 8 hours of track time on ride days.


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## gplate (Sep 28, 2011)

Look forward to seeing you surge ahead at Wakefield Park 7,8&9th of October.
Ideas I want to pass by you as a designer are composite components (case and permanent magnet rotor housing), total immersive cooling and electro magnetic phase and physical coil offsets.
As you have invested a lot of time and money in your practical development work ( yes after Andy gave me your blog address I read every post) a lot of your work parallels my ideas which cost and lack of several skill sets has prevented from physically replicating (you might say I'm a dreamer).


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## gplate (Sep 28, 2011)

gplate said:


> Look forward to seeing you surge ahead at Wakefield Park 7,8&9th of October.
> Ideas I want to pass by you as a designer are composite components (case and permanent magnet rotor housing), total immersive cooling and electro magnetic phase and physical coil offsets.
> As you have invested a lot of time and money in your practical development work ( yes after Andy gave me your blog address I read every post) a lot of your work parallels my ideas which cost and lack of several skill sets has prevented from physically replicating (you might say I'm a dreamer).


'You may say I'm adreamer but I'm not the only one' John Lennon


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

Due to the fact that the Chinese have holidays every second week, Kelly wont be able to get the KHB14801 controller to me in time for the Wakefield event.
Ive sent both KHB14601's back and Kelly have agreed to swap them for 1 KHB14801 but there is a shortage of them and recent employee turnover has delayed production of them.
So I have to put the old 120v controller back in which means making a new pack 32s12p or rebuild the old pack....to the lab


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## jonescg (Nov 3, 2010)

Well at least we know you'll still be proper quick Danny  Should be an interesting race meet. We've all gotten faster and Wakefield is a bit like Winton in that it't tight in spots. 

See you there!

CHRIS


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

Having to move the radiator to under the motor was a good thing, frees up a lot of space under the seat for the very long KHB14801 which doesnt have a cap box. Once that is gone I can make an upside down L shaped battery pack. Optimum space managment 
Ground effects ?


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## gplate (Sep 28, 2011)

Are these modifications preemptive or did Kelly come through with your new controller?
Have you looked at airflow dynamics for the radiator and the controller using smoke and high speed camera capture?
Probably have to be done on a track as I don't know if you have access to a wind tunnel with laminar air flow.
A low pressure area asually exists in the area around the rear wheel combining this with the Bernoulli effect at speed will reduce use of fans to use in a stationary state where other coolants (CO2)could be utilized.


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

The KHB14801 is an unknown but the 120v controller is a known so putting the 120v in, I dont have to rely on Kelly.
Im not sure they really want to swap the 600's for an 800.
They havnt been able to reproduce the fault in either 600 controller.
The 600's have high speed firmware which they explained I dont really need so they said they could reflash 1 of them with standard speed firmware and send it but I dont want any of them as Ive found both of them dont work.

Havnt done any airflow dynamics.
When the rad was under the seat, the tank cover used to scoop air in and spin the front fan if I didnt have it switch on so there is the possibilty of running no fans ,just some cleverly placed ducs


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## jonescg (Nov 3, 2010)

I've been looking at L shapes for my next bike - I reckon it can be done quite easily if you go with small formal LiPo, and even with the A123 cells if you plan it right. With a bit of luck you can squeeze an inverter under the seat, freeing up more room for batteries and avoiding having all that weight over the rear wheel.

Katherine gave me an original version of TurboCAD for my birthday! Hoooee is that one complicated, user-unfriendly program... Anyway, I'll learn it eventually.


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## kcsjones (Mar 1, 2011)

Could you post some more detail (pictures)about your water cooling motor setup? Did you make a chill plate? With the water cooling system what is your continuous and peak amp ratings? Did you consider any computer processor liquid cooling systems?

Thanks for sharing your build and good luck on your next time out!


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

kcsjones said:


> Could you post some more detail (pictures)about your water cooling motor setup?


Nope..........


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

Pack is back together in 32s12p format and after a bit of individual cell charging all the blocks are behaving nicely.
over the scales the bike now weighes 500gr less than the first
time I weighed it even though it now has water cooling.
The motor (just over 15kg) now has a solid aircraft alloy main shaft but its 30mm diameter over its full length.
Had to go back to copper battery cables but they have all been halved in length and some other cables are alloy braid.
There are 12 less cells in the pack, thats 1.32kg
Bike total 142kg.
7075T6 16t front sprocket gives a free spin speed of 189kmh at 800amps 118v


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

F I R E !!! 

After 8 laps of racing my windings caught fire and siezed the motor right as I crossed the finish line. Dragged the bike to a halt at the end of the pit wall and I looked down and saw flames licking around the casing behind the front sprocket, went out by itself pretty quick .
Got first place about 200m in front of Catavolt and Voltron.
Heres a Flyby with Jason (Catavolt rider)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r5mbT_HDqiU

The problems started on Friday practice, the bike was perfect with brand new stators in. I missed the start of the first practice session because of faulty PA system so only got an out lap and an in lap but the bike was doing 155kmh on 132v 800A and really pulling hard and clean and handling lots of full throttle.
Then just before second session I got a migrain (blurred vision) so I offered the session to Jason, But as I gave him the bike I forgot to switch the water pump on and I only rmbrd when he was on the 5 lap so that basically toasted the brand new stators but they were still functioning and hadnt shorted to the cores but they were on their way out.
I did a 1.22, Jason did a 1.19.
So come race time the next day I had to nurse the bike to the finish line.
I chased Jason around the track for the first 5 laps then Catavolt had a controller shut down and reboot so he stalled coming out of a corner, I said see ya later and went solo to the line.
I won the race but Catavolt won the Championship because of my DNF at Winton. He completed more races.
Chris' Voltron had even more dramas. He crashed in Fridays practice and landed on his right Agni and crushed its brush holder to bits. Went back to Canberra and got new parts and got it going again.....that is untill Saturdays Qualifying in the wet (damp), he came past me going down the straight and I said to my self hes going to crash and sure enough up the back of the track on a right hander right in front of me it went down again on the right Agni. Chris had to remove the brush holder and run the race on one motor....which did guess what, yep smoked itself, threw its solder.
All in all the whole weekend was a big party and a lot of fun racing and blowing shit up !!!


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

RIPPERTON said:


> All in all the whole weekend was a big party and a lot of fun racing and blowing shit up !!!


Hey Rip,

Congratulations on your first season. I thought you took the AUS TTXGP Championship 2011 in the GP class and the other guys ran in the F75 class. That's how the TTXGP web site has you listed.

Anyhow.......thanks for keeping us posted.

major

edit: I just saw that TTXGP will hold the World Final at Anglesey, UK for Oct. 15-16, 2011. Will you be going?


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

major said:


> Hey Rip,
> 
> Congratulations on your first season. I thought you took the AUS TTXGP Championship 2011 in the GP class and the other guys ran in the F75 class. That's how the TTXGP web site has you listed.
> Anyhow.......thanks for keeping us posted.
> ...


Technically I won the GP class but didnt get any trophy, I think they pooled overall results but still had 2 catagories .
Anyway theres a strong chance I wont have anything to do with TTXGP next year. Theres no reason why Australia cant run its own ebike Cship and much cheaper too.
My aim for next year is to get the bike at least as fast as a Supermotard and then go run in that class. Its a bitsa class that has 125 2 stroke's, 400 4 cyl 4 strokes and 450 supermotards.
If the bike is too slow Il just go do 15 ride days for the same money I would pay for TTXGP and get 10 times the R&D.
What we did this year was BS. we payed twice as much as the petrol heads and got half the track time and had to deal with tender vehicles on track during the race.
There was a station wagon on the track during one race at Winton out delivering lunches to the track marshals ! 
This year was a novelty, thats why I overlooked the rediculous entry fees.
next year wont be a novelty. I just be racing with the others as usual and looking for a reasonable deal.


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

Classic video me crossing finish line with smoke pissing out of my motor followed by the other guys 28 seconds behind.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A8jdHZVOIzw


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

This morning I had the pack out, motor out and dismantled in 45minutes and saw the damage inside. Only one stator was melted and the varnish was as expected smeared between the rotor and stator which caused it to sieze. No magnets were damaged but the cooked on varnish is impossible to get off even with kero and scotchbrite. could put another stator in but want to build a quad stack, 2 rotors 4 stators


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

RIPPERTON said:


> Technically I won the GP class but didnt get any trophy,


That sucks. Azhar should be ashamed  

Over here, Ely Scheless (#18 Proto Moto) ran all three races in the f75 class, had 70 points, and I didn't see him even get mentioned.


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## jonescg (Nov 3, 2010)

Hey Dan,
Yeah, blowing motors is easy to do 

I agree, we don't need the TTX-GP relationship for next year. It will save us a lot of money, and I too have no problem with dicing it amongst petrol bikes with similar lap times. We do need the electric competition though. You and I can do ride days and racecraft tuning days as often as we like, but things are different - better when you race. We need competition, as well as practice and R&D. Had I not come over for this series, I wouldn't have known about all your work and we wouldn't have had such robust idea-sharing over beers/coffee.

I see no reason why we can't still have our series with the oil burners though. And we have no reason to accept a higher entry fee than them either.

See you next year, either with a new bike, or a much improved Voltron


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## SplinterOz (Apr 13, 2011)

Look the whole this is a bit strange. I believe that they also counted Sunday as a Win for Catavolt and DNS for the other bikes. Really I can't figure out the points system at all.

The thing to remember however is that here it is called eFXC/TTXGP maybe we have just seen the eFX Championship. ??

If you look here we have the Championship points for the eFXC...
http://www.formula-xtreme.com.au/xt...aa0f4f8221aa3025ca25790200244685?OpenDocument

eFXC points at the end of Round 1 


Catavolt 42
Voltron 22
Ripperton 50


eFXC Points at Rnd 2 (Winton)


Catavolt 22, 22
Voltron 25, 25
Ripperton 0, 0


eFXC at the end of Rd 2


Catavolt 86
Voltron 72
Ripperton 50


eFXC Round 3 (Wakefield)


Catavolt 22, 25
Voltron 20, 0
Ripperton 25, 0


eFXC Points at Rnd 3 (Wakefield) and for the year


Catavolt 133
Voltron 92
Ripperton 75


So Jon and Jason with the Catavolt is the clear winner.

However the TTXGP takes the best result for the weekend.
So the points look like this....
TTXGP Class
Ripperton - Rnd 1 - 25, Rnd 2 - 0, Rnd 3 - 25, TOTAL 50

TTX75 Class
Voltron - Rnd 1 - 25, Rnd 2 - 25, Rnd 3 - 20, TOTAL 70
Catavolt - Rnd 1 - 20, Rnd 2 - 20, Rnd 3 -25(?), TOTAL 65 
(this is directly from the TTXGP site but it does seem wrong. Catavolt and Voltron won one race each day so Rnd 1 should have been 25 points for both)
So TTX75 should be a draw.


So this year in Australia everyone won!!!
Catavolt won the eFXC
Ripperton won the TTXGP
Voltron and Catavolt ties for the TTX75


Confused?!? I know I am.


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

Chasing Jason down the main straight trying to do as little as possible to save my motor and
My kind of podium


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## gplate (Sep 28, 2011)

RIPPERTON said:


> This morning I had the pack out, motor out and dismantled in 45minutes and saw the damage inside. Only one stator was melted and the varnish was as expected smeared between the rotor and stator which caused it to sieze. No magnets were damaged but the cooked on varnish is impossible to get off even with kero and scotchbrite. could put another stator in but want to build a quad stack, 2 rotors 4 stators


So that rotor is a no go or could the varnish be spot faced off on the CNC and a gauze test conducted?
Could 2x4 be 2x3?
So with centre stator wires through centre core and both sides parallel not stepped so only 3stators would be needed. 2 rotors out of phase and one stator then set one pole output of phase.


----------



## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

Another great TTXGP video production from Andy Marsh.
watch for Ripperton flyby at 1 min

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D3IlSLAD9iI&feature=channel_video_title


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## kcsjones (Mar 1, 2011)

Ripperton was there anything different about the new stators before they were cooked?

Kevin


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

kcsjones said:


> Ripperton was there anything different about the new stators before they were cooked?
> 
> Kevin



nope.
It was one of the ones John Fiorenza sent me from the states.
The other one in there that didnt cook was in one of the first motors I bought directly from China and has been in every motor Ive run so far, it refuses to die 
I do mod the stators before using them. I have to machine 2mm off the back face so they fit.


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

Couple of shots from Wacky (Wakefield)


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

Kelly finally found the fault with the 2 600A controllers.
apparently it was the high speed firmware.
Only when they went back to retest them on a larger motor at higher load did they actually get the controller to cut out. 
They reflashed the micros with standard firmware and they perform ok.
Will have them back next week.
Can use both of them on the Quad stack.....180kW ?


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## voicecoils (Jun 15, 2008)

RIPPERTON said:


> Kelly finally found the fault with the 2 600A controllers.
> apparently it was the high speed firmware.
> Only when they went back to retest them on a larger motor at higher load did they actually get the controller to cut out.
> They reflashed the micros with standard firmware and they perform ok.
> ...


Good to hear the big controller's are sorted!

180 kW sounds perfect  maybe upgrade the liquid cooling flow rate and rad size a little while you're at it though 

A 7.5 kWh pack of these inexpensive cells would be capable of 300 kW continuous so no problems there!

_If_ you could keep a bike pegged on 180 kW, you'd drain a 7.5 kWh pack in 2.5 minutes!

Cheers, Abraham


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

the 600's came back on Tuesday and had one in the bike the same afternoon.
It performs ok and doesnt cut out but has rough regen especially at low speed.
Anyway I made a new dash board and installed a blue led in between the 2 kelly led's which lights up when the cooling system is running so now i dont forget to turn it on.


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

Heres one for the X Files people

My motor is producing air bubbles in the cooling system.
when left sitting for 2 or 3 days the coolant overflows out the reservoir.
When I run the pump I can see bubbles come out of the motor coolant hoses
till they are all purged out through the reservoir. Theres no water leaks.
Theres some green rust inhibitor in there.
wierd stuff 

Anyway off to Eastern Creek this Friday to do the practice sessions for this weekends
round of Aus Superbikes and they have assured me that if my bike is fast enough to 
keep up with the Supermotards they will make provisions to include electric bikes in
the "bitsa" class next year so I will be racing with the 125cc 400cc and SuperMotards.
Have the 144v controller in but havnt made the new 165v pack yet.
have made a better design of end frame that is less damaging to the cells and
will be making that in Nov and Dec. 40s10p.


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

Set another stator on fire today at Eastern Creek and this time it didnt have anything to do with leaving the cooling system switched off. Was the sprocket side again so its looking like a stator quality issue or my rotor to stator air gaps arent equal.
The bike is riding well though and was able to push it hard through turns and hold higher cornering speed but still only 155kmh down the straight on 132v.

Now planing on designing an outrunner motor so I can make and wind my own stators and use simple cheaper rectangle magnets.

got the LiPos up to 40 degrees C as the motor blew. hottest yet but thanks to ventilated design am able to keep temps down and avoid meltdowns.

in the pits.


----------



## voicecoils (Jun 15, 2008)

Good to see the bike continuing to get out.

Were you able to keep up with the other bikes in those classes or did the stator meltdown to early on to tell?

Would like'd to have made it down, hopefully next time!


----------



## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

I overtook one Tard but he was real slow and just floundering. I know I can make a bike fast enough to keep up with them, means I would have to take another 15 seconds off my EC time so under 1m50s.
Ended up getting a Trophy for win of overall TTXGP class (was the only bike in that class). Heres the Trophy shelf.


----------



## steven4601 (Nov 11, 2010)

RIPPERTON said:


> the 600's came back on Tuesday and had one in the bike the same afternoon.
> It performs ok and doesnt cut out but has rough regen especially at low speed.
> Anyway I made a new dash board and installed a blue led in between the 2 kelly led's which lights up when the cooling system is running so now i dont forget to turn it on.



Wouldnt turning the LED on when the pump is not running draw more attention?


----------



## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

steven4601 said:


> Wouldnt turning the LED on when the pump is not running draw more attention?


much of a muchness
once I learn to use the light on method it should serve its purpose.

The light off method would need a normally closed relay and that would add weight to the bike, reducing cornering speed.............


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

Heres some dark matter for the cosmologists


----------



## bakes (Jun 15, 2011)

Must have smelt just wonderfull!!!!


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

bakes said:


> Must have smelt just wonderfull!!!!


NO !!!!
absolutely no smell.  

Ive cooked a fuse holder from not being tight enough and that stank like a dead animal for weeks but these stators barely have any odor at all.
Calling Mulder and Scully right now


----------



## MalcolmB (Jun 10, 2008)

RIPPERTON said:


> NO !!!!
> absolutely no smell.


You've clearly created a wormhole at the centre of those stators that is sucking in the stench. Your counterpart in the next universe along is doubtless wondering where the hell the smell is coming from...


----------



## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

possible cause of meltdowns
I pulled the motor this morning and made a mark across the 2 casings
to show how the cases were aligned.
Then separated the casings and projected the stator teeth gap to the outside of the casing using a marker pen. Not very accurate but will do for now. 
Then re assembled the motor aligning the casings using the marker lines and then refered back to the original pre dis assembly mark to see how far out it was.
The drive side casing was advanced about 1 degree from the hall side casing.
It was the drive side casing that flamed out both times. It being advanced from the hall stator would mean it was doing more work ?.
Same problem as the Agni's

First pic is the pre dis assembly mark after the correct alignment


second pic is the stator teeth projections that are used to align the cases.


----------



## CrazyAl (May 9, 2011)

Hi,

Just wondering what electric motor you are going to put for the 2012 season?

Looking forward to the Electric Bikes race when they come to Wakefield Park again.

Regards
Crazy Al


----------



## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

CrazyAl said:


> Hi,
> 
> Just wondering what electric motor you are going to put for the 2012 season?
> 
> ...


Hey Al
Im designing an inrunner with Dave Dorrel of Sydney Institute Of Technology. about 240mm diameter. Going to have to mod the swingarm to fit it in.


Heres the season DVD by Andy Marsh. great viewing
will post details soon if you want to get one.

Andy's contact details are [email protected]
$10 AUD each plus postage


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## CrazyAl (May 9, 2011)

RIPPERTON said:


> Hey Al
> Im designing an inrunner with Dave Dorrel of Sydney Institute Of Technology. about 240mm diameter. Going to have to mod the swingarm to fit it in.
> 
> 
> ...


Hi,

Thanks for the update and info.
I'm going to have to check out the Andy's DVD and I look forward to seeing your new motor.

2012 is going to be a fantastic year for Electric Motorcycle racing and Electric Car/Go Kart racing 

Kind Regards
Crazy Al


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## __Tango (Sep 10, 2009)

Wow Rip, this is a great thread. I just read the whole damn thing. 

Thanks for posting so much technical information, i did have a question though, do you need to provide compression (or lack of expansion) in your battery case? 

Good luck next year!


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

__Tango said:


> Wow Rip, this is a great thread. I just read the whole damn thing.
> 
> Thanks for posting so much technical information, i did have a question though, do you need to provide compression (or lack of expansion) in your battery case?
> 
> Good luck next year!


No,if you plan on puffing up your LiPo's your going straight to hell.
They are not supposed to puff up or inflate, if they do its because
you over amped them or let them over heat.
All of my 380 odd cells are still vacuumed tight as a bun. theres 1mm air gap between each cell


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

Bit quiet around Xmas so I decided to do a swingarm pivotectomy 
meaning to remove the 3 wide needle bearings and replace them with
narrow ball bearings to make more room for a bigger motor.
The OD of the tube is 42mm, the shaft is 20mm so I found a bearing that was 20 ID 42 OD and 12 thick so I could make a new bearing bracket that could locate onto the existing tube to position it exactly where the old bearing was then the new bearing would fit into the new bearing bracket in place of the tube.
1 Peel the box section open to weld it onto the new B bracket.
2. Weld the bastard on with some new webbing
3 Incrementally remove sections of the old tube leaving the new B bracket in its place perfectly positioned.
4. Weld in a second new B bracket with a 45 degree kick inside the first one 
5. Cap off the existing box section.
6. Now just do the same over on the other side but maybe with 2 bearings side by side and span across with a 4mm plate, more pics later


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## jonescg (Nov 3, 2010)

I'm amazed that there is so much vacant real estate inside that swingarm, Daniel! There may be a reason for it... Guess we'll wait and see. At first I was wondering why you were welding those things on the outside of the pivot, but then I didn't think you would be removing so much meat from the poor thing. Looking good so far. I might yet need to do this to the Gixxer when the time comes, but for now will focus on getting Voltron mobile again.

Wanneroo raceway is being resurfaced and is out of action until April anyway, so I might as well just spend the time planning. Ready for next year or not interested? I'm seriously contemplating holding off while the finances improve


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

jonescg said:


> I might yet need to do this to the Gixxer when the time comes,


If you are using Evo's you may have no choice, they are 380mm diameter !!


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## genawin (Oct 1, 2008)

This is Mine they are the original needle rollers,despite the frame being fairly wide body (ER5) i still had to put the ME0913 on a diet,take 25mm off it's width and make it breath through the right hand side or loose the belt and that was a compromise too far so i even took 10mm off the belt and pulleys - this particular swinging arm is getting giddy as this is the third motor i have bought and fitted and the bike has only done 20 miles ! anyway good luck with yours.


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

Finally got around to editing my 2 Winton Qualifying videos.
These are the first 3 laps I have ever done at Winton.
lap 1 followed Jason around on Catavolt.
lap 2 caught up to Chris on Voltron.
lap 3 pole position by 1 second.
You can notice the motor spinning faster on the new 175v pack before the controllers called it quits during the race later that day.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_m9d...text=C221d6UDOEgsToPDskLt2T4iDVLnwyIqnBmKLvVR


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

Swingarm Pivotectomy complete. was a hasle getting it to finish up being 262mm wide after welding. Had to spread it with threaded rod to 264mm.
still ended up needing a shim but its smooth turning and doesnt bind and of course doesnt have any free play.
Ive created 75mm of room but can only move the motor back 50mm till the sprocket hits the new bearing bracket which means I can make a new motor that is 230mm diameter. this one is 200mm diameter. And I also have and extra 35mm for a bigger battery pack. All panning out.
The chain side got 2 bearings so 2 10mm plates and a 6mm.
Here you can see the new crossover wall in 4mm.


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

Another wall shot with the original alloy axle chopped up, only using the ends of it now
Didnt think it would be lighter but Ive taken 550gr off !!
One more mod before it gets powder coated red.
The box section that goes over the chain hits my ankle
or my ankle hits it and forces it out wide.
its too thick so Il replace it with some 6mm plate.


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## Nuts&Volts (Dec 20, 2011)

Ripperton, that's some great work. It has me thinking about what I can do with my R6 build. At the moment I don't need anymore room with my small Agni 95R, but knowing that I can get about 50mm more space opens up the possibilities for my AC motor upgrade. 

Did you do any analysis before cutting up the swingarm? It appears that you added plenty of support, but the swingarm could offer less torsional rigidity now... regardless i think this is a very smart move to utilize the full volume of a motorcycle. 

-Kyle


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

Nuts&Volts said:


> Did you do any analysis before cutting up the swingarm? It appears that you added plenty of support, but the swingarm could offer less torsional rigidity now... regardless i think this is a very smart move to utilize the full volume of a motorcycle. -Kyle


Only analysis I did was look at the swingarm for a full day running things through my head. Took me weeks just to think of the right technique of using the 42mm bearings and the old bearing tube to locate the new bearing brackets. The only thing I would do different is not peel the box section open and weld it to the bearing bracket. I would make new webbings from scratch and let the box run right up to the 45 degree kicker.
If it cracks I can always get a new swingarm even a later model one and start again. The wall plate gives the mod half of its strength, without that it would crack for sure.
The new space not only lets me put a bigger motor in but also lets me put longer LiPo cells in. YGS make a 180mm long cell which wasnt an option before the mod.


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## Nuts&Volts (Dec 20, 2011)

Ok, yea I've been doing a lot of upfront computer design on my battery boxes, but just today started cutting up the R6 frame to tuck some batteries nice and low on the frame. Nothing beats the stare, ponder and cut methodology. Hopefully I'll have your welding skills someday!
Swingarms can be had pretty cheap so I wouldn't be too worried about replacing it as you said.

I really like your whole philosophy of starting with lightweight parts and pushing your power limits.


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

Jon and Chris will be in for a hard time next year because its a well
know fact, red swingarms win races
got swingarm back from Powder Coaters.
Hint dont use aluminium tape to mask off areas, the adhesive goes feral in the heat.
Also made a new piggy back bracket for the Penske reservoir in alloy.
the nylon one didnt hack it.


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

Im officially a pro electric bike racer
Just got a check for $500 from Australian Superbikes for winning my category. 
Just been down Thyssen Krupp Aerospace picking up some 6mm plate for my new motor mounts and couldnt resist snapping a pic of this modern monolith 250mm thick 6061 T6.


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## jonescg (Nov 3, 2010)

Nice! I should have applied for my own category  Seriously though, that's quite nice of them. I wasn't expecting a cup of tea, but there you go.

As for that lump of aluminium - was that the high tensile stuff you can't weld? Massive amount of embedded energy right there.


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

jonescg said:


> Nice! I should have applied for my own category  Seriously though, that's quite nice of them. I wasn't expecting a cup of tea, but there you go.
> 
> As for that lump of aluminium - was that the high tensile stuff you can't weld? Massive amount of embedded energy right there.


Dont worry we also got a $300 voucher to be used against entry fees next year. You should get one of these, wait for the mail to get over to WA.

Yes it was quite generous of them, I will consciously stop myself complaining about exorbitant entry fees from now on .

You can weld any grade, I used 7075T6 on the swing arm and also non tempered commercial grade. Didnt notice much difference but the non tempered stuff is supposed to weld easier.


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## Dalardan (Jul 4, 2008)

You can weld any aluminium, the thing is that it loses it's thermal treating locally where you weld. You then need to put your assembly in an oven and control the heating process to harden it again or it won't be as stiff as you paid for it 

So it's either no welding (put bolts) or weld and treat.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heat_treatment

I must say your aluminium monolith remember's me good times when I was Formula SAE racing and used to wheel uprights from big chunks of aluminium as you do. Nice times. Can't wait to see you back racing!


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

RIPPERTON said:


> Im officially a pro electric bike racer
> Just got a check for $500 from Australian Superbikes for winning my category.


Congratulations  Be quitting that day job now, will you


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## MalcolmB (Jun 10, 2008)

Great work on the swingarm, but this caught my eye "You can weld any grade, I used 7075T6 on the swing arm".

I did a bit of reading up on welding of aluminium when I needed to do some welding on my bike. Like you say, most Al alloys can be welded, but according to all the sources I've found, 7075 is unsuitable for arc welding in structural applications. The only process recommended for 7075 is resistance welding.

The 6000 series is much more weldable (with 4000 or 5000 series filler) though you lose roughly half the strength in the weld zone unless you heat treat afterwards.

Any chance you got the material designation wrong?

There's lots of good reference material here: http://www.alcotec.com/us/en/education/knowledge/techknowledge/aluminum-filler-alloy-selection.cfm


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

major said:


> Congratulations  Be quitting that day job now, will you


Heh I havnt had a day job since February. I have a couple of private clients that I do design and drafting work for, plus donations from "Mum & Dad"

The R1 frame and swingarm is made from untempered 3mm sheet and box section, I dare say it isnt tempered after completion. I noticed when I was peeling the box open, areas near welds were brittle but could bend it easily if it wasnt near a weld.
tempered raw materials are too hard to work with, they are impossible to bend and brittle.
Frames are designed to be untempered because they need to flex so I dont see the need to add a design feature that was never there in the first place.
I used the 6.35mm T6 simply because it was available.

Standing next to the "Monolith" was kind of overwhelming and mind boggling. Trying to imaging its mechanical properties and what kind of force it would take to "bend" it... or break it.


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

Heres the new motor mounts on the second motor, yep theres 2 of them now.
The motor has been moved back 50mm into the space I made in the swingarm.
Heres how to tune a dual stator brushless motor.
The motor is being driven by the lathe and the magnets induce current in the windings which are read by the scope
the 2 stators have to be synchronised so they will do equal work and run at the same temp. the 2 sine waves have to be overlapping.


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## jpmorgan (May 22, 2010)

nice looking bike project RIPPERTON. i have been gone from list for a while with other interests but now back online. this is a long thread and will spend some time reading through. I did not yet read enough through, did you say where to get the A123 cells?


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

jpmorgan said:


> did you say where to get the A123 cells?


26650 you mean ?
[email protected]

Merry Christmas everyone
and a happy new year


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## fengchiyueye (Dec 26, 2011)

Admire

Posts looked for a long time

Chinese fans


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

OMG I made something out of copper, 1.2mm phase busbars
there goes my cornering speed
these things are bloody heavy compared to 2mm ally.
Kelly repositioned AGAIN, with acetal tabs, back under the seat for forward thinking, one day the 800 A version of this will come to go with the new motor.
You can see where I have marked 800, thats how long it is.
Kilovac and 400A fuse bolted directly to the + & - busbar on the Kelly.


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## jonescg (Nov 3, 2010)

Nothing wrong with copper, Dan  Best conductor behind silver, and even silver has a higher density. And nether of these two metals will oxidise like ally will.

Most important question of space however - what sort of real estate exists in the under-tank area now? Can you fit another pile of cells in there?

Oh, with all of your ally welding of late, do you use a TIG or a basic MIG for welding? I'm looking into buying a welder, but not sure if I should just go for a $250 arc and accept I can't weld ally, or should I get a >$1100 TIG and do ally as well?


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

jonescg said:


> Most important question of space however - what sort of real estate exists in the under-tank area now? Can you fit another pile of cells in there?


oh yeah, I can park a Panzer Tank in there now. Could easy go an upside down "L" shape if I had to but wont need to.



jonescg said:


> Oh, with all of your ally welding of late, do you use a TIG or a basic MIG for welding? I'm looking into buying a welder, but not sure if I should just go for a $250 arc and accept I can't weld ally, or should I get a >$1100 TIG and do ally as well?


Must have AC DC inverter. Mines a cheapy probly mosfet driven. Cant rmbr how much I payed for it but it works ok. I just suck at ally welding thats all. can see it in this shot


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

jonescg said:


> Oh, with all of your ally welding of late, do you use a TIG or a basic MIG for welding? I'm looking into buying a welder, but not sure if I should just go for a $250 arc and accept I can't weld ally, or should I get a >$1100 TIG and do ally as well?


Why can't you do aluminum with MIG? I think a buddy of mine has done so with a cheap Harbor Freight MIG unit.


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

JRP3 said:


> Why can't you do aluminum with MIG?


You can
I had an aluminium wire spool for my MIG but its more agricultural .
probly not fine enough for fidly bits like swingarms and frame mods.
More for boat building and mass production work


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

Turns out the scope system of synchronising the stators didnt work.
the left was still running 10C hotter than the right (50C / 60C)
that would definitely result in another blown stator.
So I turned to my cheapy Ebay AC clamp ammeter to measure the phase current between left and right and the right was about double 16A - 8A.

So I rigged the motor in the bike using only the left motor mount and left the case locks off so I could turn the right casing and see if I could balance out the current, had to advance the right stator about 2 degrees Bingo but they both leveled out at about 20A.
Took it for a test ride and both left and right stators were 60C even and the regen is a lot smoother now right down to 2kmh.


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

Redesign the cooling system one more time. Bought another radiator off Ebay $60 and they both will go beside the LiPo pack without fans.
Found an ideal place for the reservoir beside the Penske.


----------



## jonescg (Nov 3, 2010)

Haha, geez that motor balancing method looks mighty familiar


----------



## SplinterOz (Apr 13, 2011)

jonescg said:


> Haha, geez that motor balancing method looks mighty familiar


amazing how the technology is not that much different.


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

fengchiyueye said:


> Admire
> 
> Posts looked for a long time
> 
> Chinese fans


Ni Hao Feng
have to admit everything on my bike is from China
Motenergy ME0913
Custom Neodymium magnets
Kelly controller
Enerland Lipo cells.

What would we do without China ?
cheers


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Spend a lot more money


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## CrazyAl (May 9, 2011)

RIPPERTON said:


> Motenergy ME0913


I thought you had a custom made liquid cooled motor?
Now, I'm confused?


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

CrazyAl said:


> I thought you had a custom made liquid cooled motor?
> Now, I'm confused?


I do
that was made in Australia.....by me
from 2 ME0913's


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## fengchiyueye (Dec 26, 2011)

RIPPERTON said:


> I do
> that was made in Australia.....by me
> from 2 ME0913's


 
*me0913 Rated max96V*

*question：Standard Motor Direct use of 144v or120v yes or no*

What would be bad？



=================

I want to made a electric cbr600 

http://www.ddclm.com/bbs/viewthread.php?tid=167253&highlight=




http://fc-yy.taobao.com/


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

Fan forced Kelly. CNCed a fan port in the base. Didnt gut the case for machining just used the vacuum and no coolant.
Goal is to cool the caps, chip and then the fets from the inside. After studying the layout of components I routed the air down past the caps to the other end then turns around and comes back past the fets and out the side holes. Have to paint the pcb with some water proof stuff.
Sure, voids warranty and bike cant really be ridden in the rain anyway but at 160v will need some serious cooling.


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

This should answer your question Feng.
I reconfigured the LiPo pack first to 42 series to see if the Kelly would handle it but it did the same thing it did in Winton. At 172v it makes the motor vibrate at low speed. I dont think the motor minds the voltage but the Kelly does.
So I then took 2 cells out and ran it at 40s 159v (162v full charge)
the vibration almost disappeared.
these are the free spin rpm's
133v = 4780rpm
172v = 5900rpm
159v = 5700rpm.

I cut the 32s12p pack down to 2 columns of 6p by using shorter series clamps that are only 3 cells wide.
used all of the left column (32s) and bused it down to the last 10 cells of the right column with some cable. The blue section is left unused.
Being only 6p I cant put any real load on the pack but now I can go make a new pack using a new socket design (40s 10p) .


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## fengchiyueye (Dec 26, 2011)

RIPPERTON said:


> This should answer your question Feng.
> I reconfigured the LiPo pack first to 42 series to see if the Kelly would handle it but it did the same thing it did in Winton. At 172v it makes the motor vibrate at low speed. I dont think the motor minds the voltage but the Kelly does.
> So I then took 2 cells out and ran it at 40s 159v (162v full charge)
> the vibration almost disappeared.
> ...


 
*Factory settings：*
*96V =5500rpm*



*Custom Neodymium magnets*
*159V = 5700rpm*



*Custom Neodymium magnets good*
Increases* 160%*


----------



## Tomaj (Oct 3, 2011)

Hey Ripperton, it seems you are the expert for ME913 motor

I am building a sport motorcycle based on aprilia rs 125. Goal is topspeed of 130 km/h and range around 80km.

I would appriciate some help around battery pack (A123, 20Ah pouch cells).
What configuration will be best:

112.2V, 60Ah, 6.732kWh
85.8V, 80Ah, 6,864kWh

Thanks


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

Tomaj said:


> Hey Ripperton, it seems you are the expert for ME913 motor
> I am building a sport motorcycle based on aprilia rs 125. Goal is topspeed of 130 km/h and range around 80km.
> I would appriciate some help around battery pack (A123, 20Ah pouch cells).
> What configuration will be best:
> ...



get a 144v 400A Kelly, then go 48s 2p (160v 40Ah A123 pouch) 6336kWh
Those motors dont mind higher voltage but high amps will kill the magnets.
But be sure to get the ME0913 (28 turn winding) and not the ME1012 (12 turn)


----------



## Tomaj (Oct 3, 2011)

Thanks for the answer.

I have already bought 120V,300A controller so I am limited with this one. So the best way is to use higher voltage and reduce amps. And yes it is me913 motor.


----------



## fengchiyueye (Dec 26, 2011)

RIPPERTON said:


> get a 144v 400A Kelly, then go 48s 2p (160v 40Ah A123 pouch) 6336kWh
> Those motors dont mind higher voltage but high amps will kill the magnets.
> But be sure to get the ME0913 (28 turn winding) and not the ME1012 (12 turn)


 


Really?

Great

Always thought that not more than 96v voltage me0913

If you use 144v, so 144x57 = 8208rpm

Speed ​​too high

Rotor may crash? ?


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

fengchiyueye said:


> If you use 144v, so 144x57 = 8208rpm
> 
> Speed ​​too high
> 
> Rotor may crash? ?



it wont turn that fast on 165v, maybe 5500 free spin
on the road wont go past 4800


----------



## fengchiyueye (Dec 26, 2011)

RIPPERTON said:


> it wont turn that fast on 165v, maybe 5500 free spin
> on the road wont go past 4800


 

*Strong thanks

I will buy me0913

Bought directly by

Magnet will not change, like you,

Therefore, high voltage will cause too much worry about the speed of

See Figure 80v voltage test can go to 4500rpm

==================================

I hope to drive high-voltage low-current motor

==================================

I used the google translator to communicate

Please understand*


----------



## fengchiyueye (Dec 26, 2011)

RIPPERTON said:


> it wont turn that fast on 165v, maybe 5500 free spin
> on the road wont go past 4800


 
*This is my idea*


----------



## Tomaj (Oct 3, 2011)

Another question...

I have removed fan cover and figured out that is only for turning in right direction, but for my aplication it has to turn left.

Is there any bidirectional fan or any other option?


----------



## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

Tomaj said:


> Another question...
> 
> I have removed fan cover and figured out that is only for turning in right direction, but for my aplication it has to turn left.
> 
> Is there any bidirectional fan or any other option?


Thats really a question for John at Motenergy
but yes I think he has made a new centrifugal diffuser fan for that motor.


----------



## Zak650 (Sep 20, 2008)

Hi Ripperton,

Once again all the info and reports on your experiments are just great to see and hear about. 

This is a question about cooling the PMAC-DS, ME0913 motor if it was installed in a VW bug. If a shroud were built to make a chamber around the cooling exhaust slots of the motor and then a good sized fan pulled a "vacuum" on that chamber do you feel it would work very well or be beneficial?

Thanks


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

Zak650 said:


> This is a question about cooling the PMAC-DS, ME0913 motor if it was installed in a VW bug. If a shroud were built to make a chamber around the cooling exhaust slots of the motor and then a good sized fan pulled a "vacuum" on that chamber do you feel it would work very well or be beneficial?
> Thanks


Thanks Zak
Nope, axial air flow doesnt work.
I already tried it, It just moves heat from one coil to the other.
And def dont use a 0913 in a bug, too small.
try this, they can supply a water cooled version
http://kellycontroller.com/144v-12kw-bldc-motor-p-1072.html


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

Recent changes in banking laws allow banks to charge a transfer fee when sending AND recieving funds.
I recently tried to pay YGS $106 for 5 sample LiPo cells.
I had to pay $22 on this end and then HBSC Hong Kong fleeced another $25 so YGS recieved $81.
I have told YGS that I cant do business unless they can offer MasterCard or PayPal payments.

Meanwhile I have finished the new 40s 10p pack and am designing the quick release mechanism.
the bare pack weighes the same as the other 380 cell packs because of the thinner front and rear walls. This pack will allow me to increase the water cooling capacity because its is 50mm narrower I can put the radiator next to the pack in direct air flow and because I dont need fans I can replace the weight and room of the fans with another radiator.


----------



## TwoBytes (Dec 12, 2011)

Hey Ripperton,

I stumbled on this thread accidentally, and I've read the whole thing from the start, and your old thread over on 1000rr.net also. Very nice work, you've inspired me!

I don't want to hijack the thread, but can you tell us a bit about your CNC mill. Where did it come from, how much was it, how easy is it to use, etc?

Cheers.


----------



## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

TwoBytes said:


> can you tell us a bit about your CNC mill. Where did it come from, how much was it, how easy is it to use, etc?
> 
> Cheers.


http://www.signstech.com/products.asp?EnBigClassName=CNC Routers
$6300US shipped
plus the coolant tray about $500,necessary if doing aluminium.
Very easy to use, I use it almost every day.
Comes with toolpath program.


----------



## __Tango (Sep 10, 2009)

RIPPERTON said:


> http://www.signstech.com/products.asp?EnBigClassName=CNC Routers
> $6300US shipped
> plus the coolant tray about $500,necessary if doing aluminium.
> Very easy to use, I use it almost every day.
> Comes with toolpath program.


OMG, so tempting. 

Which one in particular?


----------



## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

__Tango said:


> OMG, so tempting.
> 
> Which one in particular?


I got the 7090 but with the optional 2kW spindle (24000 rpm)
http://www.signstech.com/ProductShow.asp?ID=497

the usable work area is Y800 x X640 x Z70


----------



## TwoBytes (Dec 12, 2011)

Awesome, thanks Ripperton. 

Very tempting indeed!


----------



## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

Finaly got the YGS sample cells paid for.
5 cells $66
Fedex $40
Commonwealth Bank (Sydney) fee $22
HSBC (Hong Kong) fee $25
resend $25 via Western Union.
I had to resend the $25 that HSBC stole because YGS ended up not getting the full amount.
Western Union fee $20
total $198.

7kWh Pack is nearing completion at a projected 50kg with quick release mechanism.
Bike will be about 147kg in IOM format.


----------



## Nuts&Volts (Dec 20, 2011)

RIPPERTON said:


> ...
> 7kWh Pack is nearing completion at a projected 50kg with quick release mechanism.
> Bike will be about 147kg in IOM format.


That's awesome that you want to make it out there to race. Do you plan on riding it at the Isle? I know there are some special licensing and gas bike requirements to race an electric.


----------



## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

Nuts&Volts said:


> That's awesome that you want to make it out there to race. Do you plan on riding it at the Isle? I know there are some special licensing and gas bike requirements to race an electric.


I wouldnt be able to race the bike at IOM.
Andrew Pitt is a candidate, he lives in Peel.


----------



## Nuts&Volts (Dec 20, 2011)

RIPPERTON said:


> I wouldnt be able to race the bike at IOM.
> Andrew Pitt is a candidate, he lives in Peel.


Ok yea just wanted to make you aware. I just found out that to race in the TT Zero you also have to qualify in another TT race the same year, so keep that in mind. I may know another candidate if you are looking to find someone to race it. Feel free to PM me about it.


----------



## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

40S10P is in the bike and runs.









top view of blade connection










side view










QRM (Quick Release Mechanism)










hook in lock position










Hook in unlock position


----------



## speedily (Mar 13, 2009)

Nice work Ripperton have taken it out for ride yet ?
http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/member.php?u=9944


----------



## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

speedily said:


> Nice work Ripperton have taken it out for ride yet ?


Yep, very smooth at 164v but not enough room to wind it up.
got the 2 radiators on beside the pack like a Honda Sp1 but
motor leaks water  probly not enough silicon on the cooling jacket.


----------



## fengchiyueye (Dec 26, 2011)

very cool O(∩_∩)O哈哈~


----------



## MalcolmB (Jun 10, 2008)

Impressive. I'm constantly amazed at how big a pack you guys shoehorn into a motorcycle. That's more than my mini will have. Are the busbars made from copper braid or multiple strands of small gauge wire?


----------



## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

MalcolmB said:


> Impressive. I'm constantly amazed at how big a pack you guys shoehorn into a motorcycle. That's more than my mini will have. Are the busbars made from copper braid or multiple strands of small gauge wire?


The entire power train is aluminium.
Pos terminal is 4mm, Neg terminal is 1.5mm folded over the aluminium braid and crimped.
the braid ends are 16mm dia x 1mm alloy tube crushed to crimp and 3 m4 drill holes across and sleeved with heat shrink.
the blade connection is 1.5mm aluminium with carbon grease.
The heat shrink will tell me if I have a heat problem. Theres max 240A going through each braid at full throttle.
Im looking at 12 seconds to replace the pack in race


----------



## fengchiyueye (Dec 26, 2011)

*Hi Ripperton *

*(*^__^*) 嘻嘻…… *

*Chain or Timing ？？*


*Timing ：*Intends to use the 8M Width 32MM

*







*

*







*

*







*


----------



## Nuts&Volts (Dec 20, 2011)

fengchiyueye said:


> *Hi Ripperton *
> 
> *(*^__^*) 嘻嘻…… *
> 
> ...


No disrespect, but you should really start your own build thread to ask these questions. Cool build thou


----------



## fengchiyueye (Dec 26, 2011)

Nuts&Volts said:


> No disrespect, but you should really start your own build thread to ask these questions. Cool build thou


 Thank you
(*^__^*) 嘻嘻……


----------



## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

New dual radiators go in beside the battery pack and cut the front lip off the R6 fairing to get more air to the rads.










on commuter mode motor runs at 42C.
just did 42km around the streets here averaging 40kmh.
opened up the hole in the tank cover to get the pack out.
the release handle sticks out a bit.










new swingarm makes for very narrow bike.


----------



## SplinterOz (Apr 13, 2011)

Going to be a weapon this year  looking forward to it


----------



## jonescg (Nov 3, 2010)

I'm surprised you needed that much heat exchange, Dan. One radiator wasn't enough? It's just lying in wait for that new, bigger motor 

Any word on who might be racing this year? New contenders?


----------



## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

SplinterOz said:


> Going to be a weapon this year  looking forward to it


Think I will be the only bike on track this year
no one else is ready


----------



## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

jonescg said:


> I'm surprised you needed that much heat exchange, Dan. One radiator wasn't enough? It's just lying in wait for that new, bigger motor


you cant over cool an electric motor.
The second rad replaced the 2 fans on the first rad
and yes waiting for bigger motor


----------



## speedily (Mar 13, 2009)

RIPPERTON said:


> Think I will be the only bike on track this year
> no one else is ready


Time will tell


----------



## Zak650 (Sep 20, 2008)

Ripperton, 
For motor cooling have you experimented with pumping water mist into the air inlet of your motor cooling ducts? possibly only when on the throttle, would such a thing violate the rules? After all the gas folks inject gasoline at an amazing rate.


----------



## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

Zak650 said:


> Ripperton,
> For motor cooling have you experimented with pumping water mist into the air inlet of your motor cooling ducts?



have though about it and bought some garden spray mist nozzles but figured it would be too messy with water probably dripping into the belly pan.
Besides, properly designed fan blades on the rotor do the same thing only better.

Just recharged my pack from dead flat 138v and the v monitors sounding their alarms, some of the cells at 2.8 and some at 3.5v. Thats a big variation at BOC.
the (Batrium) charge program logged 1 hour 26 minutes at 24A and 34Ah and finished of at 168.4v and sat down to 164v with all cells dead even at TOC to within 20 milivolts!.
34Ah x 164v = 5.5kWh.
In a theoretical 7kWh pack thats 1.5kWh of unusable energy due to the 
variation of cell capacity.


----------



## __Tango (Sep 10, 2009)

Wow, that is a lot of variation. I wouldn't expect nearly that much. Is this why you expected?


----------



## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

__Tango said:


> Wow, that is a lot of variation. I wouldn't expect nearly that much. Is this why you expected?


Its understandable because they are basically B grade cells plus they are old.
this is their second season now. They always had high IR's.

I just took the bike down for its official weigh in and was blown away

141kg

it just keeps getting lighter even though I just put a bigger pack in and added a radiator.
I figure the swingarm mod helped a lot.


----------



## Nuts&Volts (Dec 20, 2011)

Wow, thats such a low weight. I'm quite impressed and really jealous. I'll have an R6 with 8kWh that will be about 163kg and I thought that was good! haha

Sorry to hear about the battery cells. With so many small format cells its very hard to guarantee that they are all the same capacity and will remain that way.


----------



## RoughRider (Aug 14, 2008)

WOOOW...141kg is realy good...

at the beginning of this thread i thought, that you were just another crazy guy with crazy ideas that will never get to life...

but now i see, that you are a very serious man 

GOOD JOB


----------



## __Tango (Sep 10, 2009)

Btw. 12 seconds to swap packs. That's great. Do you expect to do that during a TTXGP type race? Will those lost 12 seconds + the slow down/pit speed time make up for the time you have to lay off the throttle?


----------



## Zak650 (Sep 20, 2008)

Ripperton,

Can you tell me the outside diameter of the motor's bearing on the output shaft? I'd like to drill some cooling holes in the motor without taking it apart.

Thanks,
Zak


----------



## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

Zak650 said:


> Ripperton,
> 
> Can you tell me the outside diameter of the motor's bearing on the output shaft? I'd like to drill some cooling holes in the motor without taking it apart.
> 
> ...


Oh its much more complex than that Zak.
there are webbings in there that you dont want to drill through because you will weaken that face.
drill like this, 12 holes, 3 in each quadrant scribed by lines between each main bolt hole on a 80mm pcd.
Only prob is the bearing retainer plate has such a large diameter it will block most of the air you can get in through the holes. My plate is triangular, has flats cut into it between the 3 bolt holes


----------



## Zak650 (Sep 20, 2008)

Thanks, Do you have any photos of the inside of the case? 
The webs run straight across from the outer mounting holes 180 degrees apart, correct?


----------



## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

Zak650 said:


> Thanks, Do you have any photos of the inside of the case?
> The webs run straight across from the outer mounting holes 180 degrees apart, correct?


3 radial webs 120 apart. the top one is in line with the mount hole near the phase cables


----------



## Zak650 (Sep 20, 2008)

Hi Ripperton,

Thanks for all your help and the information you have provided in this thread.

Do you have any power figures that you can provide to show what you have been able to wring out of one of these double stack motors? Have you ever put your bike on a dyno?

Thanks


----------



## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

Zak havnt dynoed the bike yet but 164v x 600A = 98.4 kW at the controller minus 10% motor losses = 88.5kW wheel power.

the angle of the dangle = 12 degrees
adjusted the lean angle of the pack when supported by the pullout handle.


----------



## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

working on the fitment of the pack when in the bike.
I want the pack to slide out easily also when the bike is laying on its side.
ie if the pack goes into meltdown whilst being ridden, the rider parks the bike in the gravel trap and drops it on its side then pulls the pack out onto the gravel then the marshals can hit the pack with powder and the rider wheels the bike over to the tire wall.










This alloy trim is the bottom wall of the air dam. the other 3 walls are on the pack. plastic fly screen is clamped between the trim and the cradle.


----------



## major (Apr 4, 2008)

RIPPERTON said:


> working on the fitment of the pack when in the bike.


Hi Ripper,

I like what you're doing  However I am not convinced that a battery swap makes sense in the TTXGP brand of racing. I've been to all the US TTXGP events and haven't seen a venue where I think an advantage would be realized. 

Now the opposite is true for another EV race with which I am involved. The kart race was 100 laps with many turns. We had about 8 kWh total battery by rule. We used split pack. During the race, swapped battery in 7 seconds 

I also was involved with the Formula Lightning series back in the 90's. We were required to make battery exchange pit stops during most of the races. This was with Pb-Acid and the total on-board battery pack was about 1200 pounds. We were able to get the actual exchange time during race conditions down to about 17 seconds.

So I have some experience with battery exchange systems. Here are a couple of things I notice with your design. Containment in the vehicle should withstand crash conditions. I think this is about 8 g's. And the electric disconnect system needs to be spring loaded. It appears you use aluminum for the contacts. That will be trouble. I'd go with copper, silver or at least tin plated.

Just some of my observations. I've seen battery packs detach from vehicles during races and have seen fires result from disconnect failures 

major


----------



## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

Thanks for your input Major
but the swap pack is only for the IOM race, if I ever make it there.
Besides theres nothing stopping a pack from catching on fire in a sprint event either. Its not just a range issue, its mainly a safety device.
Its not complete yet, I want another latch mechanism up front at the top.
I now have 2 m6 bolts bracketed off to the inside of the frame which I will change into pins with another 2 hooks later on.
Apart from racing the QRM is indispensable for working on the bike and the pack itself.
Any bike I make in the future will have QRM, even a commuter like the posty bike I am building. 2 packs, one on the bike and the other on charge.

I find out if it runs properly tmrw. Have booked in for a ride day at Wakefield.


----------



## Zak650 (Sep 20, 2008)

Ripperton,

What do you think of using these magnets in rebuilding the stock double stack rotor? How did you contain the thicker magnets you put in your rotor and are you still using them?

ebay item 120841851802
4 Large Rare Earth Neodymium Magnets 1/2" Wedge for Wind Generator Wind Turbine


----------



## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

Zak those are only 80C magnets. not hot enough,
I have N40UH 180C but will be coming down to 120C next motor.
My customs are clamped between 2 rotor halves


----------



## Zak650 (Sep 20, 2008)

Ripper,

How hot do your internals get? 

Once a magnet gets overheated does it ever recover?


----------



## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

just got back from my road trip and couldnt get any track time until this afternoon.
Friday at Wakefield was rained out (bikes not water proofed yet)
met some bucket racers and they said I should ask if I could get into the bucket class the next day but wasnt to be even though I invoked the law of Burt Munroe I would be too fast for the buckets ??!!.
So drove home and caught the last session at Eastern Creek.
Unfortunately no video or photos.
New Top Speed *173kph*
all temperatures are under control
pack 43C
Controller 42C
Coils 98C. Didnt get radiator temp but they would be colder than 98C.
Now the right coil runs 3C hotter than the left meaning the advance or synchronisation is solely responsible for the running temp.
The pack bothers me the most because of the high IR's of the cells and the top half of the pack doesnt get the direct air blast that the bottom half gets because it is behind the frame. Also when I brought the bike home the pack was still warm so I pulled it out and propped a fan up against it to get the heat out.
I did 26km in the session but cell 17 crashed and caused me to stop.
theres easily 32km of racing range in that pack.
Anyway the bike is as agile and fast in corners as ever and I can really feel the 141kg although the smallish motor was tripping the controller out any time I went over 80% current (340A).


----------



## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

Zak650 said:


> Once a magnet gets overheated does it ever recover?


nope, its toast.


----------



## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

Correction
the EXray dash has logged a max speed of 175.8kmh
the 173 came from me trying to look at the speedo when Im sposed to be concentrating on tip in points.
I can almost go through T1 flat.


----------



## SplinterOz (Apr 13, 2011)

Danny great news. Looking forward to the first weekend.


----------



## jonescg (Nov 3, 2010)

RIPPERTON said:


> Correction
> the EXray dash has logged a max speed of 175.8kmh
> the 173 came from me trying to look at the speedo when Im sposed to be concentration on tip in points.
> I can almost go through T1 flat.


I think I backed off through T1 once, as I was getting quicker around there. But just as I was getting confident I smoked my motor .
Proof from the first race last year:
http://i285.photobucket.com/albums/ll53/jonescg/eFXCRd3EC010-1.jpg


----------



## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

Nice, but...

I have just suffered a total and devastating heart break. 
My 170hp CBR1000RR track bike has siezed its motor.The HRC World Superbike spec 4 cylinder with 14:1 CR JE pistons Carrillo rods lost oil pressure after the clutch came loose and the oil pump chain lost drive. 
This 152kg beast named "The Darkness" was a work of art taking over 4 years to build and lots of dollars.
The good bits will be sold off to pay for LiPo cells.
One consolation though, is it will make a very nice Electric race bike and might just have it converted in time for the first race.
Here in rememberance is the last time the CBR was let loose at Winton.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=73mY...xt=C32ab21aUDOEgsToPDskIP4AkOGgF9DmDrlOTl0Z9R


----------



## Nuts&Volts (Dec 20, 2011)

Sorry for your lose Ripperton, but it sounds like it may get a new, better and hopefully faster life 

Good Luck this season and hopefully you can share as much knowledge this season as you did last.


----------



## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

First Dyno run.
dont focus on the number too much (61hp) Im not sure if its too accurate.
we did 2 runs the first one was 53hp and the second was 61hp and the tester said he rolled the throttle on differently the second time.
The Dyno speedo read 200kmh but I only get 175 on track so I will
be making a smaller front sprocket so I can use up all the revs.
what is interesting is the shape of the torque curve and its position in relation to the hp curve.











http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HYQi...xt=C3454142UDOEgsToPDskLt2T4iDVLnwyIqnBmKLvVR


----------



## Nuts&Volts (Dec 20, 2011)

That dyno doesnt like right at all...

I helped dyno a bldc machine and got a nice flat torque curve. When we did a pull we just went full throttle and let the motor spin up until it hit a speed limit set on the controller. It produced a nice flat curve torque and linear power curve up to base speed. 

Think maybe it has something to do with the kelly progamming? Or maybe the way he rev'd it up? It would be useful to see any battery side data logging during this run


----------



## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

Nuts I told Shannon to keep it under 80% current until he got over 100kmh so it wouldnt trip the controller.
Its geared too tall.


----------



## Nuts&Volts (Dec 20, 2011)

That makes more sense, thanks for sharing.


----------



## jonescg (Nov 3, 2010)

Hey Dan, you should be able to squeeze a bit more HP out, but probably not much more. The torque curve is all wrong, but electrics are hard to dyno for torque.


----------



## SplinterOz (Apr 13, 2011)

Dan, I think that torque curve is showing you what Shannon was doing with the throttle not what the motor can do. I would recommend that you set the Kelly to torque throttle mode and just get him to pin it.


----------



## Zak650 (Sep 20, 2008)

Dan,

What rpm are you running at the peak?


----------



## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

SplinterOz said:


> Dan, I think that torque curve is showing you what Shannon was doing with the throttle not what the motor can do. I would recommend that you set the Kelly to torque throttle mode and just get him to pin it.


Interesting but pinning it would still just trip it out.
Still he ended up with full throttle.

175kmh is 4260 rpm

Im making 14t and 13t front sprockets today


----------



## major (Apr 4, 2008)

RIPPERTON said:


> 175kmh is 4260 rpm


That doesn't jive with the dyno plot. At 136 kph, it reads 52 lb.ft. and 57.5 hp. That back calculates to 5800 RPM.......IMMIC (If My Math Is Correct).


----------



## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

major said:


> That doesn't jive with the dyno plot. At 136 kph, it reads 52 lb.ft. and 57.5 hp. That back calculates to 5800 RPM.......IMMIC (If My Math Is Correct).


That dyno speed readout probly isnt right either.
He said it ran up to 200kmh on the bike speedo as it leveled off.
anyway Ive tested it with a 13 tooth front sprocket and its a rocket 
Much better accel but dont know how its effected top speed.
Probly much more rideable on most tracks


----------



## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

Heres my charging process


----------



## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

an hour and 21 minutes
$1.34
31.81 Ah
5.575 kWh










any cells that are too high will be discharged with an RC charger and any that are reall low will be charged up with the 40A 4.2v charger.


----------



## Zak650 (Sep 20, 2008)

Dan,

I'm working on putting two ME0913 in a VW Super Beetle and I might look at a common throughshaft, one set of encoders. Have you ever considered a quad stack arrangement on your bike?


----------



## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

Zak650 said:


> Dan,
> 
> I'm working on putting two ME0913 in a VW Super Beetle and I might look at a common throughshaft, one set of encoders. Have you ever considered a quad stack arrangement on your bike?


too hard to synchronise.
you will need a controller for each motor and 2 encoders...hassle

http://kellycontroller.com/144v-12kw-bldc-motor-p-1072.html


----------



## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

Just got our entry forms for this years eFXC race meets
Our entry fees are $700 per event and still only 1 race per day
Friday practice included.


----------



## Zak650 (Sep 20, 2008)

Sounds like you should apply for an alternative energy vehicle grant from the government. After all ther real R&D in transportation over the last 100 years has happened on the race track.


----------



## SplinterOz (Apr 13, 2011)

RIPPERTON said:


> Just got our entry forms for this years eFXC race meets
> Our entry fees are $700 per event and still only 1 race per day
> Friday practice included.



Wow!! a whole lot cheaper.... (sorry being sarcastic again)


----------



## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

SplinterOz said:


> Wow!! a whole lot cheaper.... (sorry being sarcastic again)


Eloquently symbolizing mankind's struggle against the lack of a sarcasm smiley.
When will we evolve ?


----------



## jonescg (Nov 3, 2010)

There is a roll eyes smiley, I guess that's as close as we'll get to a :sarcasm: smiley 

$300 cheaper is an improvement, but the limited track time is still frustrating.

I have put the word out for anyone keen to race on Voltron. Cost of shipping the bike, entry fees and superficial damage to be covered by the rider. I will provide a working bike, that's all. If I get no takers, then I just saved myself $4000 worth of Agnis, but if someone is keen I'll put some new DC Powerplants on and get it ready.

Tony, if I get a taker (unlikely) would it be OK to house Voltron in Canberra again? No crates this time I promise!


----------



## SplinterOz (Apr 13, 2011)

jonescg said:


> There is a roll eyes smiley, I guess that's as close as we'll get to a :sarcasm: smiley
> 
> $300 cheaper is an improvement, but the limited track time is still frustrating.
> 
> ...


I would be happy to have it here if required. I will ask Pieter here if he interested.


----------



## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

The YGS sample LiPo cells finally arrived and I temp tested them at 50A for 2 min 30 sec and they got to 32C
 smoke came out of my battery tester so I had to abort.
 the 4ah cell maxed out at 400A for a couple of seconds and they all charged back up to 4.2 and stayed there off charge.
 So they run a lot cooler than the B grade Enerlands I have in my R1 now.
 I feel ok making packs out of these cells and they are at a reasonable price too.
 The dimensions on the website arent even close. You can back check these.
 The pos tab looks to have been about 5mm long but lengthened with a crimped on section. not good.
 Have spoken to Apple about making custom long tabs about 25mm.


----------



## SplinterOz (Apr 13, 2011)

Dan, 10C from the batteries for over 2 minutes and only 32 degrees, that is great. You should be able to make a physically smaller pack and less material to hold it all together.


----------



## Zak650 (Sep 20, 2008)

Dan,

Have you looked into changing the wiring of the ME0913 motors from star to delta windings? It would allow you to run the two sides of the motor in series and at higher voltages with less amps?

Zak


----------



## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

Zak650 said:


> Dan,
> 
> Have you looked into changing the wiring of the ME0913 motors from star to delta windings? It would allow you to run the two sides of the motor in series and at higher voltages with less amps?
> 
> Zak


Hmm lots of cant do's there.
The one thing I cant do is rewind the stators so I dont want to touch them
also cant or dont want higher voltage, means redesign the pack and go get a different controller big bucks.
Am working on a dual motor vertical stack and chained together.


----------



## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

Yet another work of media art from Andy Marsh

LOL "I dont see any one coming near me this year"
cant believe I said that

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pUHc3oR4ugE&feature=youtu.be


----------



## Zak650 (Sep 20, 2008)

Dan, what kind of rpm limit are you at with your modified motor?

Zak


----------



## SplinterOz (Apr 13, 2011)

RIPPERTON said:


> ...
> LOL "I dont see any one coming near me this year"
> cant believe I said that
> ...
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pUHc3oR4ugE&feature=youtu.be


Let the trash talk begin


----------



## jonescg (Nov 3, 2010)

I won't commence smack talk until the end of the year


----------



## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

TTXGP say must have BMS...
heres mine
1.5A discharge Batrium LongMons housed inside the left side panel.
Had to make new side panels and extension tabs that come off the front and rear face and sneak around the corner into the side panel cavity.




























lots of pretty leds.









So I now comply with regs even though I probly wont actually use the system at all on a race weekend. Would only use it to balance the pack
at top of charge every now and then.
Will probly need new cells by the end of the season.
Lets go racing........well only Myself and Catavolt are due to show up at the first round.


----------



## SplinterOz (Apr 13, 2011)

So only the two of you at the first round... that is not fun


----------



## jonescg (Nov 3, 2010)

That's a bit sad that it's just you two, Dan. I really wish I had the time and the money...  Next year for sure 

Having a BMS on any system bigger than 32 cells seems quite a hassle doesn't it? At the very least I think an on-board LVC and HVC although the HVC can even be off-board.


----------



## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

first round of Australian 2012 TTXGP eFXC Wakefield
WOW what a weekend. Only Ripperton and Catavolt showed up.
some very close racing, almost too close sometimes.
in Friday practice we got a good idea of the pace between the 2 bikes.
There was almost nothing in it. The combined bike rider weight was
Ripperton 141+105=246kg 61hp
Catavolt 175+75= 245kg 60hp
I had advantage on corner entry due to better brakes
Catavolt had advantage on exit due to more copper (torque) and 2 controllers
I had to use the Kellys boost function to avoid overamp cutouts.
The controller ramped down amps when it gets feedback from motor.
Made the bike very slow out of corners.
even our top speed were similar, I clocked a 170.8kph in a draft behind Catavolt but would get a 169kph in the wind.
Catavolt top speed was about 165kph.
On Friday we kept ramping up our own settings to squeeze a bit more out.
My pack was behaving so well with the new BMS I set draw on battery to 90% and the pack would come off track at max 48C and cool down straight away even while charging at 24A.


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## SplinterOz (Apr 13, 2011)

Look here for a pile of my photos from the weekend.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/splinter/sets/72157629507757774/detail/

(straight from the camera... cropping etc will come later.)

Wakefield eFXC 2012 Rnd1 Race1 - 05 by Splinter, on Flickr


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

Thanks Tony nice shots
Racing was damn close.
Saturdays race was reduced from 6 to 4 laps due to delays in the days schedule caused by a few serious gas bike wrecks and the Ambulance had to go to Hospital twice.
Catavolt got the start but was taken in l2 when I outbraked him in t4.
got me back in t10 a lap later. I got him back again in t2.
Then in l4 got me on brakes in t10 but unwittingly pulled out his lanyard 50m before the finish line. I was gifted the win but got fastest lap which now stands as race lap record for eFXC catagory. 1m15.607.
Race 2 Sunday also cut down to 4 laps, Jason learnt all the possible places I could overtake under brakes and studiously slammed the door shut every corner of every lap so had a lot of trouble overtaking him. We nearly crashed at least 6 times on Sunday where I had to back out each time to avoid a crash. came in second 1.2s behind. also fastest lap in race 1.15.663
some Data for Sundays race 5 minutes 13 seconds
4 laps plus out lap and in lap 13.95km
used 2.95kWh start voltage 163v Finish voltage 150v
16.6Ah
cost 70c


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## jonescg (Nov 3, 2010)

Nice work guys!

Feels sad to not be out there with you this time  I reckon Voltron would still have the power, but it won't steer through corners like your bikes.

I see the water mist is helping Jon's bike quite effectively. Voltron will be getting one of these installed, but hopefully I won't be racing it next year; I'll be racing the eGSXR instead.

I plan on getting over to QR since my family lives in Warwick / Brisbane. I doubt I'll have a bike anywhere near ready by then, but at least I can provide some useful commentary.

Cheers,
Chris


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## CrazyAl (May 9, 2011)

From a spectator's point of view, round 1 of the TTXGP was a fantastic round, although it would have been nice to have Voltron there.

I noticed the bikes to be significantly faster and louder than last year.

Even the crowds, team owners and other riders were interested. Some of them even started following me into the garage. Some team owners would like to enter the category, but don't know how.

More details about round 1 can be found here.

In my opinion, one of the reasons why the grid does not have more electric bikes is because there is not enough expertise in electric propulsion.
This represents an opportunity for Catavolt-Solar Power Australia, Ripperton Racing and Voltron to perhaps consider either:


prepare Electric Bikes for other competitors;
licence their intellectual property to other competitors and receive a royalty;
sell kits to competitors;
sell consultancy services to competitors;
etc
And those of you who want to get a head start in entering the TTXGP championship, you need to check out eFXC | TTXGP Electric Motorcycle Championship Australia 2011 DVD. This DVD gives footage of the championship, but also some of the technical details and technical jargon which in my opinion is enough for a team owner to get started and points them in the right direction. It discusses some of the problems (pitfalls) faced. It will basically save you a year of trial and error.


I'm looking to implement (in May) on my Electric Go Kart the water mist cooling system similar to the one Catavolt-Solar Power Australia uses.



I look forward to when the TTXGP comes to Goulburn again. Ripperton Racing said he will do a nice burn out for me 



Regards
CrazyAl


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

Nice blog Al !
Some vids

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=woyyx0idwVA&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SQ6SWnHFVEY&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3CCYyPqCXGY&feature=relmfu

And some smack talkin......

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=90dkHovpBbg&feature=youtu.be


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## CrazyAl (May 9, 2011)

RIPPERTON said:


> Nice blog Al !
> Some vids
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=woyyx0idwVA&feature=related
> ...


Thanks for the feedback. The videos are great.
I'm looking forward to your next development on the bike.


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## jonescg (Nov 3, 2010)

Hey Al!

Yeah, it would have been good to be there. But like always, life is the stuff that gets in the way of plans. I'm busy teaching this semester and the funds are pretty low. Voltron would need another $3-4k spent on her to get back on track, and really I'd prefer to spend that on the next bike.

Next year mate - I'll let these 40-60 horsepower bikes duke it out in 2012, but in 2013 they'll need a bit more than 100 to keep me in sight 

I personally think that between Jon, Daniel and myself, we can certainly provide keen riders with bikes, or at least technology to go into bikes. It's tough trying to sell bikes as complete units, but for a whole new series like this I think there's a business case.

I'll be over for the QR round for sure. My family live over there so I might tie it in with a visit.

See ya

Chris


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## evmotorcycle (Jun 23, 2010)

That sounds der like some Smack Talkin' Dr Jones. >


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

Post race motor pull down...
hall side stator is shorting to core. This is most likely a result of the controller tripping out at full throttle as the windings jerk back and forth and wear through the laquer.
Not sure if that robbed me of any power during the race as the motor pulled smoothly all weekend.
Have re assembled the second motor and will install it for the ride day at Phillip Island next week.

What I learnt at Wakefield,
advantages of Hub motors in racing (yes there are some !)
the weight of the motor in the rear wheel drastically reduces forward weight shift during braking meaning you have 2 wheels braking not like a conventional bike where you have the rear wheel floating in the air.
We only discovered this once Jon (Catavolt) finally started tweaking his Kellys and turned regen up to 50%. The effect was phenomenal, instantly the Dealim (Korean for donkey) started braking like a McLaren F1 and was easily outbraking me into turns. You can see the effect in the 3 videos posted on YouTube a couple of posts back in this thread.
In contrast heres what my bike did when I turned regen up to 50%. It was like someone sticking a broomstick in my rear spokes.









I locked up and went straight through the gravel, came in and had to turn regen back down to 23% on switch mode because when I activate boost function in the Kelly the regen brake loses its pot modulation function (????)
sounds like some sharing going on in there but the power ramping at low speed was more valuable to me than variable regen.

Riding so close to Jason all weekend I saw exactly what the disadavantges of Hub Motors are. The unsprung weight of the rear wheel almost rolls the tire off the rim in some of the corners and makes the bike slow to tip over into corners as the gyro forces are very heavy.

So now you have the Hub Motors 2 main advantages and disadvantages in direct opposition to each other.
The superior braking is something you want to design towards but the bad handling has to be designed around. Maybe a full sized 190 tire would help.
This definitely has me thinking about Hub Motors in a race bike, very eye opening considering I was totally against Hub Motors up untill now.

Under advice from a front running SuperMotard racer (Shaun Geronimi) who test rode my bike on Sunday morning in Warmup I have fitted standard genuine Yamaha front brake pads and have noticed an improvement in bight straight away.
He also gave me one of his older Pirelli Diablo SuperCorsa's straight off his Motard bike as the Michelin Power ONE was under par and both he and I saw the front end pushing and sliding in turns.
Il have to get him to ride my bike more often.


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

Heres some shots of Shaun on my bike thanks to Tony Castley


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

And most importantly a nature shot with the local wild life


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

Fresh motor in and cooling system bled ready for Phillip Island, time for a little music. 5200rpm

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=88GFgchxnXY&feature=plcp


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## rochesterricer (Jan 5, 2011)

I've always liked the idea of a hub motor on a street bike. I get sick of cleaning and lubing chains. That reminds me, I've gotta replace the chain on my wife's bike sometime soon.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

or










But yeah, a wheel motor seems like a pretty neat option.


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## rochesterricer (Jan 5, 2011)

Belts and shafts have their own set of advantages and disadvantages. I'd prefer to just bypass all that


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

another awesome vid from Andy Marsh

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b8NpaSGD6GM&feature=youtu.be


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## jakun (May 11, 2012)

Hello RIPPERTON.


I am new on this forum. I have read all this forum topic and now I have a question. I've got an electric motorcycle and want to change it now from a brushed to a brushless system. I've got a A123 40ah 144V battery already ordered a ME0913 and now the question is which controller to take? A Kelly controls employee told me that the heat duty is not so good on the KHB14401 (400A, 200A) and it would be better to take the KHB14601 (600A,250A). I only worry, that the stronger Controller could burn the coils with too much Ampere. What do you think about it? Thanks in advance for your advice.



RIPPERTON said:


> get a 144v 400A Kelly, then go 48s 2p (160v 40Ah A123 pouch) 6336kWh
> Those motors dont mind higher voltage but high amps will kill the magnets.
> But be sure to get the ME0913 (28 turn winding) and not the ME1012 (12 turn)


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

jakun said:


> Hello RIPPERTON.
> 
> 
> I am new on this forum. I have read all this forum topic and now I have a question. I've got an electric motorcycle and want to change it now from a brushed to a brushless system. I've got a A123 40ah 144V battery already ordered a ME0913 and now the question is which controller to take? A Kelly controls employee told me that the heat duty is not so good on the KHB14401 (400A, 200A) and it would be better to take the KHB14601 (600A,250A). I only worry, that the stronger Controller could burn the coils with too much Ampere. What do you think about it? Thanks in advance for your advice.


They mean take the 600A but run it at 70%.
I have a 600 run at 100% but it has cooling.


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

After hammering the pack at 90% draw at Wakefield, 4 more cells have failed.
They are thickening up on one end. They still hold voltage but better to replace them. Im getting very good value for money out of these cells.
It will cost me $5800 to replace them with 4Ah YGS cells and had planned to order them but couldnt get the cash together so will do the QLD round on these. Will have new revA stators for QLD (30% more copper).


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

Lost another 150gr off the weight of the bike by replacing the 4 cell A123 12v pack with a 12v plug charger. have to plug it in to the main pack every time I want to ride but it also eliminates having to charge the 12v pack all the time.










trying to get the weight back a bit to improve braking, can move the controller back 70mm by cutting out part of the cross member. The main pack needs to come back too.


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

got a new single unit peizo horn to replace the 4 smaller ones from the volt monitors. this goes under the steering head on a 0.6mm cnc bracket and pumps out 100db, very high pitch.


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

Found that most of the thickened cells were pierced, that would explain the electrolyte smell around the battery after the last rebuild.

Not to be upstaged by no flouncing, jumped up Korean racing donkey I have gone to improve my braking performance by shifting weight rearward.
Have repositioned the controller 140mm further back in the subframe and lengthened the cables accordingly. Not much to an amateur but every gram counts in racing.
Have also found the ideal place for a motor and future motors will be mounted 200 further rearward also.


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

redesigning a part that works perfectly is a bit silly but Ive got a Currie thumb throttle on the left Hbar to use for regen modulation.
At least it gets rid of the cable and underslung Ford throttle pot.
It will have to be fitted with 2 micro switches and a longer lever.


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

2mm alloy sheet cnc lever with 2 micro switches screwed onto the side with M2.5 screws tapped into the plastic housing.
The mounting holes in the micro switches were only 2mm so I drilled them out to 2.5mm and there was almost no plastic left but I drilled and tapped holes into the side of the throttle body and they held fine.
had a peek inside there and the pot is direct drive 1;1 to the thumb paddle.
Had 4 goes at making the lever, its has 2 M4 bolts through the paddle


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

So when you pull the lever what does it do to your regen (increase, decrease, activate...)? Are the two switches activated sequentially (pull a little to open one, a little more to open the second)?

I like that your left hand is active, now to find something for that left foot to do!  I have been trying to think of things for my left side to do on an e-bike (I like the fact that everything is engaged with a traditional motorcycle - part of the experience for me).


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

One switch is for the brake light , the other is for the regen function on the Kelly. They trip simultaneously.
Kelly regen first has to be activated by switch to a preset value (up to 50%) then modulated by 0-5k pot from the preset value up to what ever you set the limit to (80% max)
The pot obviously increases regen as you pull it in.
The range can also be adjusted so 70% or 80% of pot rotation gives 100% value.
trust me, its a luxury not having anything for your feet to do on a race bike.
Just keeping them out of the way of the ground by not having to push a brake lever during cornering is a big plus


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

RIPPERTON said:


> One switch is for the brake light , the other is for the regen function on the Kelly. They trip simultaneously.
> Kelly regen first has to be activated by switch to a preset value (up to 50%) then modulated by 0-5k pot from the preset value up to what ever you set the limit to (80% max)
> The pot obviously increases regen as you pull it in.
> The range can also be adjusted so 70% or 80% of pot rotation gives 100% value.
> ...


Gotcha, thanks!


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

just thought Id check with the DIY community, Ive found out that the purple wire in the middle is the wiper but as the retards who make these Currie thumb throttles use any colour wire they want ,I dont trust that the red is the +. Lets try and figure out which is the positive, red or orange.


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

never mind
I figured it out
I went and back engineered the old regen pot by putting 3v through it and watching the wiper voltage.
it starts off at 3v and reduces as I pull the lever.
So I put 3v through the Currie pot using red as pos (guess) and orange as neg and the wiper voltage reduced as I pulled the lever.
so Currie throttles are:
red = pos
orange= neg
purple= wiper

so thats sorted, soldered the old plug onto the currie wires and doused the micro switches with hot glue.


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## orfansin (Jun 13, 2012)

I really like these features..
21-24 magnets
27 first track outing
30 custom rotor
32 ramair
34 racing & trophy
35 battery design
59 charging process
60 BMS


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

Special delivery direct from Motenergy factory in China.
4x revision A stator sets with wider coil slots and 1.8mm wire in place of 1.2mm.









Well things happen quick in the Ripperton Racing Lab, I already have a pair of these RevA stators in one of my existing casings and just went for a test ride this morning in freezing Sydney Winter weather.
A lot more power and resistance to tripping out the controller.
The motor can now handle 90% amperage on takeoff in place of 80% but the controller will still trip out at low speeds under full throttle.
So thats a 33% increase in wire diameter which is pretty irrelevant.
I guess cross sectional area is more important and theres a 78% increase there. 
John has also reduced the thickness of the stator from 50 to 48mm which coincidentally is what I had to machine my standard stators down to fit them in with the water cooling jackets, so lots of time saved there.

Have also shipped $5750 off to China for 420 4Ah YGS LiPo cells with custom 25mm tabs. They will be ready to ship on the 4th July so might even have them in the bike in time for the next round of eFXC in Queensland on the 20th July.


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## SplinterOz (Apr 13, 2011)

I love the continual improvement happening here. Really looking forward to catching up in Queensland. Should be a great race again.


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

it gets interesting
DHL tracking page tells me my YGS LiPos have been delivered and shoved under the roller door of my lab.
now the gamble is can I get the whole pack stripped and rebuilt in 1 week while not taking any time off from my new job.


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

well should have known to not get excited, the cells showed up with extra short 9mm crimped tabs when I actually ordered extra long 25mm uncrimped tabs. they are all going back to China and I will have to race QLD on the old pack. good thing I didnt strip it.


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

Holy crap
YGS is asking me to solder strips of nickel onto the tabs to make them longer.
??????????
fark i payed $5750 dollars for this stuff and I expect to get what I asked for


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## jonescg (Nov 3, 2010)

That's pretty lousy service! Be careful of sending them back - it will end up costing you a lot more than it should.

Worse comes to worst, you can spot weld copper tabs to them to make them longer, but I'm sure you have better things to do than fold up 800 bits of copper.

I can solder a pack up for you for round three if you like 

See you next week Dan!

Chris


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## SplinterOz (Apr 13, 2011)

RIPPERTON said:


> Holy crap
> YGS is asking me to solder strips of nickel onto the tabs to make them longer.
> ??????????
> fark i payed $5750 dollars for this stuff and I expect to get what I asked for



Bad news... I was looking forward to the battle of the new battery packs.


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

jonescg said:


> That's pretty lousy service! Be careful of sending them back - it will end up costing you a lot more than it should.
> 
> Worse comes to worst, you can spot weld copper tabs to them to make them longer, but I'm sure you have better things to do than fold up 800 bits of copper.
> 
> ...


They are paying for postage both ways.
Thanks but I wouldnt have a soldered pack, I dont believe in soldering or having an unventilated pack even if they are A grade low IR cells.
The current pack will do QLD even if the races are almost twice as long as Wakefield. 8.8km - 15.5km


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## jonescg (Nov 3, 2010)

RIPPERTON said:


> They are paying for postage both ways.
> Thanks but I wouldnt have a soldered pack, I dont believe in soldering or having an unventilated pack even if they are A grade low IR cells.
> The current pack will do QLD even if the races are almost twice as long as Wakefield. 8.8km - 15.5km


Good to hear they are acknowledging the cock-up. Hope it goes smoothly for you.

My pack will be vented, but not for active cooling. More like an emergency release valve  And they will point downwards for good measure. I'm embedding a couple of thermocouples in there to warn me of any impending disasters. Anyway, if the solder is getting hot enough to melt, you got bigger underlying design problems.

Good thing about the old pack is that you can run it into the ground for QR and have a shiny new pack ready for Wackyfield. Andy might get to film some more smoke!


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## evmotorcycle (Jun 23, 2010)

*LiPo cells - Wrong size tabs*

That's a total bummer man. You have been waiting so long for these to arrive as well. Now you are really testing the longevity of those LiPo cells. Let's hope the old ones do the business for Queensland.


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

Of course my relentless God given design computer has fashioned a solution to the short tab issue.

Ive been working on a better simpler design technique for capturing the cells and the short tabs forced me to come up with something new.

The only bitch is that if I was going to make a new frame design I would have ordered 6Ah cells because they are cheaper by the kWh and would need less of them making it even simpler again.

I only ordered 4Ah cells so I could put them straight into the existing frame and even some of the older frames.

Looks like YGS are going into the DIY bad books unfortunately in particular "Apple" the sales idiot who systematically botched everything in the name of raking in money $$$$$. Then the other half of the problem, the so called engineer who took 3 weeks to box the defective short tabbed cells that they had lying around in stock for the economy of getting rid of them.
They actually told me the "custom long tab cells" would take 3 weeks to make special order.

The 9mm tabs are even shorter than the standard length tabs they have which is 15mm, so these really are defective cells that they couldnt get rid of.


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

jonescg said:


> My pack will be vented, but not for active cooling. More like an emergency release valve  And they will point downwards for good measure. I'm embedding a couple of thermocouples in there to warn me of any impending disasters. Anyway, if the solder is getting hot enough to melt, you got bigger underlying design problems.


Its not the melting of the solder that I think is a problem, theres nothing in there hot enough to melt solder anyway. It s the difficulty of replacing a cell that eliminates soldering as an option.

As for ventilation, even low IR cells are going to get warm and if you have 400 cells backed up together like that you might not get that heat out before the next time you go on track and you are going to get an escalation during the day.
A ventilated pack gets any heat out straight away and you can run it full pace as soon as you charge which is 1.5 hours.
Think about it Chris can you get that heat out of the core in 1.5h ?
I would never take a risk with LiPo's especially if it only costs me 80mm of pack height. It still fits in the bike.


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## jonescg (Nov 3, 2010)

RIPPERTON said:


> Its not the melting of the solder that I think is a problem, theres nothing in there hot enough to melt solder anyway. It s the difficulty of replacing a cell that eliminates soldering as an option.


It's not that bad. I have gotten quite proficient at soldering with a 200 W iron now.



RIPPERTON said:


> As for ventilation, even low IR cells are going to get warm and if you have 400 cells backed up together like that you might not get that heat out before the next time you go on track and you are going to get an escalation during the day.
> A ventilated pack gets any heat out straight away and you can run it full pace as soon as you charge which is 1.5 hours.
> Think about it Chris can you get that heat out of the core in 1.5h ?
> I would never take a risk with LiPo's especially if it only costs me 80mm of pack height. It still fits in the bike.


A bit of warmth is good for these cells. I will be draining no more than 20C bursts from these cells at the absolute worst, and even 10C constant drain (150 amps) for 7 minutes only just started to warm them up. 10C on this pack will be 96 kW! Personally I would rather be able to ride this bike in the rain (and not crash ) and know it won't short or fail. 

I am trying to get it so charging outside the bike is easy, but I will still need a hoist to get the pack out.


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

Awesome weekend racing at Willowbank, same results as Wakefield.
I got 1st on Saturday Jason won on Sunday and I ended up with fastest lap record for an electric bike. 1,32.3. 0.2 seconds faster than Jason.
A comedy of miscommunications left Saturdays race at 5 laps even after I recommended to officials I should do 4 laps due to my battery pack being old.
So we unwittingly raced for 5 laps but my pack handled it no problem.
Catavolt on the other hand didnt handle the 5 lapper as its controller cut out at the end of lap 4 due to the windings overheating.
This let me catch up and overtake to do the last lap in the lead even though I ran of the track through the mud on lap 3.
What was I doing in second you ask ?. I got mugged at the start because My motor is still too small and controller cuts out if the motor is overloaded resulting in slow acceleration.
My bike has a faster top speed and is faster into corners but Catavolt is faster out of corners
So I figured theres nothing wrong with my pack and was looking forward to doing another 5 lapper on Sunday but the original 4 lap request finaly filtered through the cluttered communication system and we were informed only on the grid that it would be a 4 lapper.
I spewed as Catavolt had implicated its water mist cooling system and could now probably do 4 laps without overheating.
Sure enough I got left at the start and Catavolt managed to win even though it started to cut out over the finish line. I was pushing hard and my controller cut out 4 times during the race.
During the post race interview, Catavolt stood in a puddle of water leaking out of its hub on the pit lane. Notions of protests lurked in my mind but didnt bother.
Now Jason and I are dead equal on point and whoever wins on Sunday at the next round in Wakefield takes the championship.
Im finaly going to build the twin motor now as it my only weak point.
Pics and videos later


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

The only left hander at Willowbank.


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

Water Mist cooling... doesnt work


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## Catavolt (Jul 26, 2012)

LOL , The mist system does seem to work but is only a temporary measure , At the end of the race we dump the remaining water through the motor to help protect the magnets as this shot shows in the pits.
We are working on a closed loop liquid cooled system for next season.
It seems that we overworked the motor more than we needed in the last races having a 6 and 8 second lead at some stages.


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## jonescg (Nov 3, 2010)

Good stuff Jon, Dan!

I had fun, but I have voiced my disenchantment with the level of program support for the electrics... again. All they really need to do is run them at any time other than the lunch break and people will instantly get more opportunity to learn about the future of electric racing. Till then we will be competing with the grid girls for attention. Tough to do I know... 

I'm writing from Kalgoorlie - the CRX I bought in Adelaide is a little trooper!

Cheers,
Chris


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## evmotorcycle (Jun 23, 2010)

*eFXC | TTXGP Electric Motorcycle Championship Australia 2012 - Queensland Round 2*

*eFXC | TTXGP Electric Motorcycle Championship Australia 2012 - Queensland Raceway - Round 02*

The Australian Electric Motorcycle racing season continues with a battle between Danny Ripperton of Ripperton R1 Electric Superbike fame and Jason Morris from team Catavolt. This race sees Catavolt sporting a new a123 battery pack. With only one round to go, who will be best placed to take the championship? Get on the grid for some awesome electric motorcycle racing...


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

more pics from Willowbank


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## evmotorcycle (Jun 23, 2010)

Awesome photographs!


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## CrazyAl (May 9, 2011)

jonescg said:


> Good stuff Jon, Dan!
> I had fun, but I have voiced my disenchantment with the level of program support for the electrics... again. All they really need to do is run them at any time other than the lunch break and people will instantly get more opportunity to learn about the future of electric racing. Till then we will be competing with the grid girls for attention. Tough to do I know...
> Cheers,
> Chris


I intend on being at Wakefield and a couple of friends are coming to watch as well. If the organizers run the race during lunch time, I too will voice my disgust and I'm sure my friends will also voice their disgust.


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

evmotorcycle said:


> Awesome photographs!


Well hows national TV then ?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OL1CJaE85LY&feature=youtu.be


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

Quad Stack !
its happening for real yeah


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## jonescg (Nov 3, 2010)

Awesome Dan! Careful though, keeping two motors in balance is not easy. Will you go with two regular motors, or have you been developing a second 'Ripperton' motor?

I will be in Canberra until the 31st of August, but can't make it out to Wackyfield unfortunately


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## ryry (Aug 17, 2012)

hi guys, been a bit of a spectator up to now, thought id finally post something and hopefully get my own started soon.

This is getting a rather interesting topic with two different systems (hub motor and then chain)

Now an interesting questions would be.
*are you going to use two motors to help spread the heat along with a bit extra power, or try and max out both.
*are you planing on using the dual motor to dual controller setup or a big single controller with balanced motors.

an interesting idea for the hub motor setup is dual motors one in the front one on the back with a properly engineered bike, that way you have easy regen on the major brake and an extra spread on the weight and heat output.


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

jonescg said:


> Will you go with two regular motors, or have you been developing a second 'Ripperton' motor?


Both
Im going ahead with the Quad stack and Im snooping around in China for a stator manufacturer.
I have found one that can make axial gap stators and they are quoting one 222OD 120ID and 80mm thick. Same poles and turns but with series and parallel cables.

One thing Ive found with the new Rev-A stators is that the teeth dont line up
exactly when the 2 stators are face to face. 

Ryry the bike just needs more copper and at the moment putting a second ME0913 in is the cheapest and quickest way.
I know it could all go wrong running all that on just one controller but Im going to try anyway.


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

It grows and grows......
no where near finished yet but starting to shape up


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## ryry (Aug 17, 2012)

Very good rip, im sure that the extra motor will give you a much bigger buffer with pushing things to there limit, after all theoretically you have twice as much area for power and heat. 
itll be good to see what results your going to get once you start with the two on the same controller especially .
Also i may add, Very Very nice job on all your work with the cnc, nothing looks out of place.


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## jonescg (Nov 3, 2010)

Looks like it's air cooled from this angle


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

jonescg said:


> Looks like it's air cooled from this angle


>Meh

Im snooping around for some thin carbon fibre sheet to cover the square openings but this is where I am now, have all the lightened spacers in place.
Next is the shafts.
I just decided to turn the motor around so the cables poke out backwards.


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## ryry (Aug 17, 2012)

hey rip.
Have you thought about maybe doing a bit of a star delta setup on the two motors. it could act as a bit of a second gear, or more high and low gear.


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## Zak650 (Sep 20, 2008)

Dan,
Why not cover the openings with fiberglass window screen material possibly with small square hardware cloth on the outside of that? It's got airflow directly through the motors that way.


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

ryry said:


> hey rip.
> Have you thought about maybe doing a bit of a star delta setup on the two motors. it could act as a bit of a second gear, or more high and low gear.


Not with these motors, would require rewinding.
The larger stators Im having quoted in China could be series parallel.


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

Zak650 said:


> Dan,
> Why not cover the openings with fiberglass window screen material possibly with small square hardware cloth on the outside of that? It's got airflow directly through the motors that way.


I just bought 3 sheets of 0.75mm carbon fibre on Ebay, would look much better than fly screen. coming from Germany $96 ouch
Im normally not too fussed about appearances but after seeing the way the frames came out of the cnc its turned into a "work of art" thing.
hope it actually runs


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## evmotorcycle (Jun 23, 2010)

This looks like a piece from the freakin' Mars rover! Only thing missing is a laser for shootin' them rocks! 

AWESOME!


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

evmotorcycle said:


> This looks like a piece from the freakin' Mars rover! Only thing missing is a laser for shootin' them rocks!
> 
> AWESOME!


You mean shootin them Catavolts !!.
Got both shafts turned and stators drilled.
Still a long way to go.


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

all 4 stators are sealed to their water cooled frames and the shafts have their key slots cnced in them and are ready for the rotors but I dont think I can get this ready for next weekend so Im not going to pull the existing motor apart to get the rotor out of it.
Here are some shots of the chain synchro system which allows me to advance or retard the lower shaft 6 degrees either way so I can get it running at the same temp as the top motor.
the shafts have 16 tooth aluminium sprockets and the idlers will be 14t on a sliding base bracket


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

We are down at Wakefield park for the final round of efxc and it was snowing !!
Races will be 6 laps so I just have to wait for catavolt to overheat and I will catch up and over take... 
Yep...catch up. Catavolt is still faster out of corners and off the line.
I have new pirelli super corsa soft and am even faster in turns.


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## CrazyAl (May 9, 2011)

RIPPERTON said:


> We are down at Wakefield park for the final round of efxc and it was snowing !!
> Races will be 6 laps so I just have to wait for catavolt to overheat and I will catch up and over take...
> Yep...catch up. Catavolt is still faster out of corners and off the line.
> I have new pirelli super corsa soft and am even faster in turns.


Great to see you are using Pirellis. I'll catch up with you on Saturday and Sunday. I've got some people coming as well to watch the electric bikes.


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

Well no cigar, second place on the day and second place in he Championship.

Saturdays race turned out to be another one of those unexplainable Catavolt breakdowns that let me come through for the win.
Jasons bike started stuttering on the back straight and on the final run down to the chequers simply cut out letting me slip through to win by less than a bike length. "Act of God" in my words.
Sundays race was an easy victory for the yellow bike as Jon turned up the power slightly and switched off the temp cutout function all together.
Catavolt was on suicide mode and I was expecting to get showered in molten copper but it did the full 6 laps without blowing up although the windings went up to 160C at the end of the race.
My pack was literally on its last legs, the LiPos were suffering chronic voltage drop due to age and was very slow out of corners. 
So we finished the season on equal points with 3 wins and 3 seconds each, but Jason took the title because he won on Sunday. 
After the freak weather on Friday, zero C in the mornings, hail sleet and then actual snow falling, which has rarely happened in Goulburn, Saturday and Sunday were picture perfect.
Heres a dyno run at the track.


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## jonescg (Nov 3, 2010)

Well done Daniel! Not one DNF or DNS this year for both of you, so the reliability thing is getting better. Congratulations to Jason and Jon too, they can definitely chalk up some serious improvements.

I left Canberra on Friday and I couldn't wait to get back to the warmth of the West Coast. Perth was a full 10 degrees warmer. I have no doubt that it was snowing that day, cause man it was cold.

Anyway, enjoy the rest of the laboratory season and I look forward to being out there next year on Voltron Evo


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

The current double stack has been dismantled and the rotor and magnets cannibalized out of it.
Here are the two QuadStack rotors loaded with magnets ready to go into the QuadStack frames.
I first put the empty rotors and shafts into the motor frames to space them out equally between the stators. 1mm gap between magnet and stator
Now before the final assembly I will leak test all 4 cooling jackets.


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

Leak test.


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## MalcolmB (Jun 10, 2008)

Very impressive. You must have put a lot of hours of machine time into these. It looks like the rotors are positioned axially on the shaft with two big nuts. I guess the rotor is keyed to the shaft as well?


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

MalcolmB said:


> Very impressive. You must have put a lot of hours of machine time into these. It looks like the rotors are positioned axially on the shaft with two big nuts. I guess the rotor is keyed to the shaft as well?


Thanks Mal
about 3 h for each frame, they get machined from both sides.
The 7075T6 shafts have a 37mm shoulder on the drive side of the rotor and 2x 6mm keys and an M32 alloy nut on the other side. They get shimmed into position. Bearings and sprockets are down to 30mm.


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

I have no idea what Im doing here but it sure is exciting !!


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## SplinterOz (Apr 13, 2011)

RIPPERTON said:


> I have no idea what Im doing here but it sure is exciting !!



My God this is looking great. Worth a trip down one weekend for a try


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## jonescg (Nov 3, 2010)

Looking good Dan. What's the final weight do you know? Should be a bit less than twice the weight of the current motor?

Oh, and are you going to be running the stators in series? Seems to be the best way to avoid any current sharing issues. Volt up man!


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

jonescg said:


> Looking good Dan. What's the final weight do you know? Should be a bit less than twice the weight of the current motor?
> 
> Oh, and are you going to be running the stators in series? Seems to be the best way to avoid any current sharing issues. Volt up man!



It should turn out to be about 32kg.
running everything in parallel . Dont have the time for a new controller to go twice the voltage. Still have to make the new battery pack after this


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

CHOP THAT BIKE !!!


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

CNC THAT NEW MOTOR MOUNT










*H U N G*


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## jonescg (Nov 3, 2010)

I thought you would have put the drive on the lower one; or does it stick up too far?

Looks great anyway mate


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

jonescg said:


> I thought you would have put the drive on the lower one; or does it stick up too far?
> 
> Looks great anyway mate


Thanks Chris yes it sticks up too far.
All the empty space was down in the belly pan so
thats were it went.


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## muffildy (Oct 11, 2011)

very informative thread!
How is the liquid cooling going? any chance at more pictures on how it is done?


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

muffildy said:


> very informative thread!
> How is the liquid cooling going? any chance at more pictures on how it is done?


The design works well. In this build I get to integrate the labarynth into the motor frame. More complex machining but saves a lot of space, makes the motor much narrower.
I wont show the exact labarynth shape but theres really only one way to do it.


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

Motor and pack are in 
Battery pack has been reangled so the bottom is further back.
Had to re position the cross member.


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## Arlo (Dec 27, 2009)

Awesome dude!


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## jonescg (Nov 3, 2010)

You had room for three motors there Dan!


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## fireblade (Aug 20, 2012)

To Ripperton:

I commend you on your work. Since you have made great strides to make a good motor, I'd like to draw your attention to the Toyota hybrid electric motors. The links below describe in great detail the performance and capabilities of the electric motors in the Prius, the Camry and the LS600H. I believe that these motors will have greater performance that what you are currently using and at a greatly reduced price.

Camry 2007: http://www.osti.gov/bridge/servlets/purl/928684-rRNS3c/928684.pdf
Prius 2010: http://info.ornl.gov/sites/publications/files/Pub26762.pdf
LS600H 2008: http://www.osti.gov/bridge/servlets/purl/947393-XILNlP/947393.pdf
Prius 2004: http://www.osti.gov/bridge/servlets/purl/890029-WIfqPO/

You can also go to http://www.osti.gov/bridge/basicsearch.jsp and search for hybrid. It appears that they may have looked at other hybrids also.

A source of supply for these motors is www.car-part.com. Not sure if there is an Aussie version of this.

Good luck to you


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

These do not appear to be valid links. I suspect spam.

Not spam, just weirdness on my end.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

JRP3 said:


> These do not appear to be valid links. I suspect spam.


I opened the first one, then clicked the PDF to view it - it worked and looks like a lot of useful information on these motors. I was planning to go back and save all the PDFs because - when I finally get some dependable EE interns - I wanted to explore this possibility. 

Funny thing, I had just been out and watched a big LS600H silently pulled out of a side street and onto the main street, then came back and read this post. It caught my attention, because even in the clamor of traffic, on a busy street, it was apparent that it was moving on electric power - pretty cool.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Weird, I can't get them to open up, or download them, and a Google search took me to a porn site, not necessarily a bad thing


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

JRP3 said:


> Weird, I can't get them to open up, or download them, and a Google search took me to a porn site, not necessarily a bad thing


What browser are you using? I'm in Firefox. I'm saving them now, I'll re-post them when I get the last one saved.

EDIT: I forgot the file size limit here for PDFs is less than a meg! I can't attach them.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Firefox here too. Weird, no biggie though. Maybe I'll try Chrome.

Yeah, Chrome worked for me.


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## aeroscott (Jan 5, 2008)

No prob on fire fox , absolutely great stuff downloaded to my files . DOE did a great job of comparing the details of these system , best I have ever seen ! should get these links to the controllers, motor, battery sections


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## aeroscott (Jan 5, 2008)

In fact we need to start dedicated discussion . 400 or so pages (in the 4 links) of the most informative , concise , comparative data . DOE out did themselves .


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

I got the links to work but took a long time.
great pdf's very informative and lots of detailed pics of magnet arrangement.

..but Ive recently discovered the beauty of axial gap PMAC and that is you get to use both sides of the magnet so you get increased power to weight ratio which is exactly what your looking for in race motor design.


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

Final pics of new QuadStack. total 33kg
just have to get some crimp lugs for the cables that join the 2 motors together.
Synch side










Drive side










Front










Rear










Chain guard on drive sprocket










New Hall rotor using an original Motenergy Hall ring glued onto an acetal hub. maybe glue issues....


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## fireblade (Aug 20, 2012)

Hi R:

Pics look great, thanks for sharing. Did you CNC those pieces w/ your CNC machine?

Also you may want to take another look at the power density of the hybrid motors against the Axial-gap. 

I looked at the ME0913(http://www.motenergy.com/me0913.html) against the Camry motor (http://www.osti.gov/bridge/servlets/purl/928684-rRNS3c/928684.pdf).

ME0913: 30000watts/35lbs=857watts/lb with 30000/339ci=88W/ci
Camry: 70000watts/59.4=1178watts/lb with 70000/415ci =168W/ci

The other thing to consider is that these motors were designed as traction motors and you need fewer thus simplifying things.

To control the inverter/converter you may want to take a look at http://www.vassfamily.net/ToyotaPrius/CAN/cindex.html and
http://www.cleanmpg.com/forums/showthread.php?t=12851
http://students.asl.ethz.ch/upl_pdf/151-report.pdf?aslsid=872312f78e157fbb152e3c14c9b984e0


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

Thats the standard ME0913 which has 7mm thick magnets.
thats its weak point, you put 500 amps in that motor and the magnets will
demagnetize.
My magnets are 16mm thick.

Yes I cnced every thing with a $7000 2kW Chinese router.


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## jonescg (Nov 3, 2010)

She looks well engineered. Hope the load sharing goes smoothly for you.

As for gluing acetal, you can get a primer which works reasonably well, but the problem with block copolymers is they don't have reactive surfaces for adhesives to stick to.


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## esoria (Nov 25, 2010)

I don't understand when Ripperton said "put 500A and magnet demag", magnet demag for temperature...or not?
I have 0913 too, and i use this motor in a light frame with a kelly 136V 800A controller, and motor on winding hit max 70C and for now work good.


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## Arlo (Dec 27, 2009)

esoria said:


> I don't understand when Ripperton said "put 500A and magnet demag", magnet demag for temperature...or not?
> I have 0913 too, and i use this motor in a light frame with a kelly 136V 800A controller, and motor on winding hit max 70C and for now work good.


It will demagnitze from heat. Prolly >150 degC it depends on the magent temp rating most are 150-180 degC rated from what I have read. You have to remember he is racing this and under race conditions he will have running at the amp limit more often then on the street.


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## esoria (Nov 25, 2010)

Thanks Arlo, i understand  i'm happy can push 800a inside without prob, i check often temp!


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## aeroscott (Jan 5, 2008)

How do you check the magnet temps ? I was of the mind that magnetic saturation would kill the pm's . If not over saturation just heat that's great ! 800 amps, wow ! I love it! 
Then I was thinking about gas cooling the stator wire and how do you get the coolant to every part of the wire? Well the Reme motor uses hair pin shaped or "U"s of square cross section for more wire fill reasons , these are silver soldered same is done by the big utility machines . They also use ceramic insulation (utility machines) . As a side note another advantage of this hair pin stacking , is the winding to winding voltage is only 1 turn different . 
Now the good part , we stack copper tubes or if $2k is available silver tubes ,these are installed with ceramic insulation solder the ends to manifold .Pump gas or oil threw and around them .
My dad had told me many years ago , that running low voltage motor with pwm control/ higher voltage had less IR loss . Well with the voltage converter and motor controller these tube winding could be of lower count making it a little easier to build and less back emf to overcome . Now were cooking with gas , LOL!


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

esoria said:


> I don't understand when Ripperton said "put 500A and magnet demag", magnet demag for temperature...or not?.



I didnt mean from being overheated, I meant from being overforced ?
there is so much electro magnetic force coming from the stator that it wipes the magnetic field out of the permanent magnet.
I still have this rotor, it would not have enough power to ride across flat ground.
But this was when I had the 120v 1000A Kelly in there and I think it was turned up full.
This is why I cant understand why John Fiorenza is making more powerfull rev-A stators but the magnets are still that same 7mm thick ones.


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## aeroscott (Jan 5, 2008)

That clears things up , 1000 amps on 7mm magnets will demagnetize them. 
even if cold .


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## esoria (Nov 25, 2010)

mmmm... its a bad news for me, i never know magnetic-flux can demagnetize magnet, i always think the only problem for magnet is temp, and for now all of my motor if i never go high with temp, work fine...
I have the kelly 120V 800A, maybe i need to set to 500-600 ampere for safe?
I'm very happy to see this motor at 800A at only 50C on the windings, and...uffff set controller lower is boring


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

first boot of new QuadStack
I got a few laps of the suburb in and can honestly say I got to feel the real force of the new twin rotor QuadStack. I was able to switch off boost mode and go to unramped 600 amps and it was exactly what I was expecting.
Smooth and grunty. It will take a while to get the 2 rotors timed and tuned together so they are running at the same temp. Right now I noticed the top stators were slightly warmer than the bottom.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NJj8u4-Sxro&feature=plcp

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NJj8u4-Sxro&feature=plcp


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

The Sync system works well and very accurately but in the reverse of what I thought it would.
It doesnt adjust the timing between the 2 shafts because the motors are timed electrically. I could take the chain off and the 2 shafts would actually free spin together as long as there wasnt any load on any of the shafts.
The Sync system just tensions the drive side of the chain between the 2 shafts so there is equal load on either motor, then they run at the same temperature.
The top motor was running warmer then the bottom so I initially tried moving the Sync block forward to "advance" the bottom motor but that slackened the drive side of the chain and the bottom motor was doing less work, it was free spinning. Top stator was up to 80C and bottom stator 50C
So I tried moving the Sync block rearwards to tighten the drive side of the Sync chain and the temps started to equalize, the bottom motor was able to join in the work load.
This red mark was the static or neutral position of the Sync block when the motor was on the bench. The miss alignment you can see is the distance I had to move the block back to get the right amount of tension on the chain when the motor is under load.


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

Connected the cooling system up and no leaks


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## aeroscott (Jan 5, 2008)

Can someone point me to the page for the cooling system. thanks


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

Sorry Scott, what you see is all you get.
Im not disclosing the labarynth design.

So I have ticked 3 boxes in my design criteria check list.
1. I can accurately adjust the temp between top and bottom motors.
2. I have a leak free cooling system.
3. the motor works but still only 20kg of stator weight, need at least 30kg.
But now I just have to rebuild half of the motor.
I designed 2.5 degrees advance into the right side stators because that is what I though the old Motenergy framed motors were running at.
But they are now running hotter than the left side.
I didnt allow for any timing adjustment of the right side stators because any adjustment would have broken the silicon seal of the water cooling.

So now I have designed a method to allow 2 degrees of advance adjustment into the right stators without disturbing the water seal plus eliminating any rust that was building up on the stators due to water coming into direct contact.
In racing we are not allowed to use corrosion inhibitor, only straight tap water.


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## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

RIPPERTON said:


> ...
> In racing we are not allowed to use corrosion inhibitor, only straight tap water.


Consider getting the cnc'ed aluminum "electroless" nickel plated. It's relatively inexpensive (for example, we pay $60 to nickel plate each Soliton1 enclosure) and gives you decent corrosion resistance. Nice work on the motors, btw.


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## aeroscott (Jan 5, 2008)

Thanks, I thought I missed it . I understand .


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## dladd (Jun 1, 2011)

Are you not allowed to use Water Wetter?


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## jonescg (Nov 3, 2010)

dladd said:


> Are you not allowed to use Water Wetter?


Nope, cause that makes the track very slippery should it ever leak or open up in a crash.

But ICE oil is okay


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## dladd (Jun 1, 2011)

jonescg said:


> Nope, cause that makes the track very slippery should it ever leak or open up in a crash.
> 
> But ICE oil is okay


I see. I've never heard of a track that doesn't allow Water Wetter, must be a down under thing.


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## aeroscott (Jan 5, 2008)

What's in water wetter?I'm thinking soap , to reduce the water tension .


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## dladd (Jun 1, 2011)

aeroscott said:


> What's in water wetter?I'm thinking soap , to reduce the water tension .


It can't be just soap, no way a little soap in water could possibly smell that bad. 

The MSDS is out there on the interwebs somewhere, but it definately has corrosion inhibitors in it.


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## jonescg (Nov 3, 2010)

I think the racetracks here have a blanket statement of "No additives, just water, no further questions thanks". I know my GSXR appreciates having something other than plain water in there to prevent corrosion, so I have to keep the coolant from last time I drained it.


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

Tesseract said:


> Consider getting the cnc'ed aluminum "electroless" nickel plated. Nice work on the motors, btw.


Thanks
Thats a good idea, was also thinking about anodizing considering I have my own system, just got to dig it out.


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## aeroscott (Jan 5, 2008)

dladd said:


> It can't be just soap, no way a little soap in water could possibly smell that bad.
> 
> The MSDS is out there on the interwebs somewhere, but it definately has corrosion inhibitors in it.


 From my biodiesel making experience , I learned that corrosion inhibitors are sometimes made of water soluble oils like biodiesel which can be made from vegetable oil or animal tallow , they can smell . Then in making soap from the oil, the oil becomes more water soluble . Leave a little soap in the methyl ester(bio diesel) and you have corrosion inbibitor , lube and wetting agent . sodium hydroxide (lye) that turned the fatty acids to soap are not good for aluminum , maybe a pH balance would take care of it.


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## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

RIPPERTON said:


> Thanks
> Thats a good idea, was also thinking about anodizing considering I have my own system, just got to dig it out.


If the goal is to protect the coolant passages from corrosion (ie, from not being allowed to use anti-freeze, which includes corrosion inhibitors) then electroless nickel is superior to anodizing (or any other electrolytic process) because it will coat all surfaces evenly, including blind or shadowed surfaces (such as the inside of coolant passages). You just have to ensure the plating solution is well circulated with a stirrer or pump or the like.

A reputable US company that sells an electroless nickel plating kit is Caswell's; not too practical for you to order from, I realize, but maybe the link is useful as a reference.


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

Tesseract said:


> Caswell's; not too practical for you to order from


contraire we have a Caswells here in Melbourne, we used to have one in Sydney but dont know where it went, it where I got all my anodizing stuff from.
Im well into making the new toolpaths for the replacement motor frame.
Ive heard Chris Jonescg talking up real big on Endless Sphere saying,



> "In the TTXGP, I will probably get someone good to race it for me. I have Nigel Lloyd in mind since he's a West Aussie champ. But for local stuff I'll throw my hat in the ring. Though, this bike could be so far ahead of the competition maybe even I could steer it to victory. Maybe"


So....Ive also pulled out the stops complimenting my increase in power by taking 40kg off the rider, thats right Im hanging up the leathers and parking my 105kg butt on the pit wall.
So Ive added 18kg to the bike but can easily find a rider weighing 65kg so the combined bike rider weight will go from 245kg to 224kg and horsepower could theoretically go up to 120...maybe

Sydney AEVA meeting









Early morning frost on the Ripperton Racing team truck at Wakefield


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## jonescg (Nov 3, 2010)

Hehe  We can smack-talk, but have you heard Tony's smack-talking? Man, that guy can smack-talk .

Looking good mate. Pending future employment I'll have Voltron Evo in amongst it. If I don't win my fellowship it might not be as spectacular... But we'll see.

Hey did you hear the fantastic news about Jason and Jon - heading over to Daytona! Do us proud boys!


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

Gave myself a short holiday, 1 day to fly down to Phillip Island and back to watch Casey beat up everyone. 2000km in 1 day not bad.
So $450 later, my new motor frames are electroless Nickel plated at SEC plating in Sydney. Decided to get some pro's to do it rather than learn everything on important parts.
20 micron thick and the surface feels like teflon, not just smooth but very slippery


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

Also finalized new LiPo case and will have the new pack together pretty soon.
no picks just yet


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

Motor is back together and in the bike
went for a few test rides with the timing advanced a bit more than usual
and it is handling 10 seconds of full throttle. Still with the old pack
this thing is quick !!!

The stator temps have evened out and I guessed almost spot on with the bottom stator, only 1 or 2 degrees C difference between left and right but the top stators will need the right one advanced a bit, they are 4 to 5 degrees C out.

Top and bottom temp differences are being painstakingly evened out with the synchro idlers, a quarter mm of synchro bracket movement equals 3 or 4 degrees temp difference.
This is exactly the headache I though it was going to be with the tuning but Jesus its got some getup now.
Will be heading for the track soon.


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## Maks (Nov 6, 2012)

connection of motors on the same shaft (axis) was not considered?


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## SplinterOz (Apr 13, 2011)

Maks said:


> connection of motors on the same shaft (axis) was not considered?


If you look at the photos on page 72 you will see that if you joined them on the same shaft the combined width would be greater than the frame of the bike . You don't want added width that low on a race bike.


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

Maks said:


> connection of motors on the same shaft (axis) was not considered?


Was considered but a twin shaft would fit in the bike easier and be easier to tune.


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

Latest weigh in

160kg

few cooling system mods
lower inlet hoses were clashing with the fairing belly pan so threaded the T piece and screwed in directly.


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

Took the R1 to Eastern Creek or Sydney Motorsport Park (SMP) as is it know now after its makeover and got a free Dyno run.
Stranger and stranger are the funny shapes of Electric bike dyno charts.
This is still with the old LiPo pack in explaining why its only 54hp but
still 10hp more than the single motor


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## SplinterOz (Apr 13, 2011)

Nice... very clean example of the constant torque of the electric drive chain.

From 30 to about 110km/h there is constant torque (linear increase in HP). The flat bit at the top is probably battery limited (it would be nice to capture Batt amps and Phase amps along with the HP).

Then the drop off due to back EMF being larger than what the controller can shove in.


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

Dyno vid
enjoy

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hxhuqme5I0Y&feature=plcp


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## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

RIPPERTON said:


> ...
> So $450 later, my new motor frames are electroless Nickel plated at SEC plating in Sydney. Decided to get some pro's to do it rather than learn everything on important parts.
> 20 micron thick and the surface feels like teflon, not just smooth but very slippery
> ...


That electroless nickel is a sweet looking finish, isn't it? It's supposed to be pretty tough, too, w/r/t both mechanical and chemical abuse.

At $450 to do those frames I think I would have taken my chances with the Caswell's kit, though...


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

Tesseract said:


> That electroless nickel is a sweet looking finish, isn't it? It's supposed to be pretty tough, too, w/r/t both mechanical and chemical abuse.
> 
> At $450 to do those frames I think I would have taken my chances with the Caswell's kit, though...


I tried to scratch it with a scribe and it left a mark, not as hard as anodizing.
But the guys also glass bead blasted the parts as there was some corrosion in the cooling grooves of used motor frame.
Happy with the finish though. Theres no way you could guess what material those parts are made from by looking at them, its a strange colour.
Thanks for the tip


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## Maks (Nov 6, 2012)

how many Nm?


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

Maks said:


> how many Nm?


Dont know 

went drag racing at Eastern Creek drags and did 5 runs with the old Lipo pack.
the bike ran flawlessly and did consistent 15 second runs at the same speed 153kmh. so no pack deterioration over the whole night. Started out off charge at 163v and finished at 152v.
Was a lot of fun and the new QuadStack had a lot of punch. I was able to give full throttle at
the tree and hold it for 20 seconds. The motor and cells did not show any temperature at all but the
controller got to 35C !!! in 20 seconds.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YgHmAtbYT6k&feature=plcp


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## jonescg (Nov 3, 2010)

Looks like fun Dan. 

My 1974 Toyota Crown with a million km on the clock, no compression and a slippery clutch could do the quarter mile in around 15-17 seconds. It used to sound like an electric typewriter with the space bar held down - taptaptaptaptaptaptaptapta  Dad borrowed it for a week and after getting the shits with having to push-start it everywhere, he drove it to the wreckers for like $50. I was angry for about an hour.


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

Yeah sure 15 seconds 
Get back to work if you want to go racing next year
Im going to need someones ass to kick


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## jonescg (Nov 3, 2010)

The experiment cannot be repeated 

Sending some pics your way bucko... You're going to have to find about 100 more kilowatts if you want to kick my ass.

PS You know of any work going? I'm broke now


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

jonescg said:


> The experiment cannot be repeated
> 
> Sending some pics your way bucko... You're going to have to find about 100 more kilowatts if you want to kick my ass.
> 
> PS You know of any work going? I'm broke now


I dont even know what you do, or what you want to do.
So have you pulled that motor apart yet, got to be some way of shedding a few kilo's off it. Brass water fittings !!! lolz


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## jonescg (Nov 3, 2010)

I think it's pretty respectable for it's weight. It's the size which is the issue, hence the custom frame to go around it. See you next year


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

back out the drags last night with a 14t sprocket on the front.
exactly the same run times (15.4s) but 10kmh better top speed after 
the finish line 165kmh.
Have spoken to Rinehart importer here near Sydney and they said could
get me a semisponsorship deal with a discounted PM100DRX, still cant afford one so sticking with 2 Kellys and 170v.
The Rinehart would mean going to 80s 5p 340v.
but I think I can get good power characteristics with the low voltage high amperage.
The racing we do is a lot of pulling out of slow turns and not really getting up to high speeds then braking and starting over again.
We will see a lot of different philosophies on track next year.


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## jonescg (Nov 3, 2010)

Who is your RMS importer Dan? I've only ever conversed with Larry and Chris directly in the US. 

I was quoted US$10,500 for the PM150DZ. Is the 100 a bit cheaper?

Agreed, it will be interesting to see how things go next year. I just hope I can make it happen in time without sending myself broke!


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

jonescg said:


> Who is your RMS importer Dan? I've only ever conversed with Larry and Chris directly in the US.
> 
> I was quoted US$10,500 for the PM150DZ. Is the 100 a bit cheaper?
> 
> Agreed, it will be interesting to see how things go next year. I just hope I can make it happen in time without sending myself broke!


Jons sponsor Sungear or something.
They have their showroom just around the corner from where Jon lives
in South Cardif


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

He never gave me an actual number but it would be something like
8 or 9 k
[email protected]


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

Happy New Year DIYers
A short pause and $1500 to recondition the engine on the Mitsubishi bike transporter and its all ready for this years racing season.
Back on the R1, have started building the new LiPo pack.
About 2 full days to prep the 420 cells for the new framing system.
I moved all necessary tools into my room as its the only one with airconditioning, were having 40C heat waves down here atm.
After bitching about the tabs being too short I ended up having to trim
all of them down to about 8mm. Some were already that long.









Dog ear the crimps so they fit around the acetal bar that separates the 2 rows of cells in each block.








The dodgy crimped tab extension also had to be checked and rebent in some cases. These cells are obviously production faults, they cut the tabs too short and had to lengthen them by crimping on an extension.
They never told me about this, hope they handle the current.
Each cell had 2 bits of tape, one for the crimp extension and one for the capacity and internal resistance measurement. Both were removed. Positive end colored in red marker
All cells were about 3.835 Ah and 1.2 - 1.4 mili-ohms IR.









Now to assembly the 20 blocks that make up the pack.
Each block is 2s-10p and is removable by undoing 4 screws and a bus bar in case of a failed cell. wont be showing how that works, top secret !!


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

Wakefield round 3 TTXGP eFXC video.
another awesome video production from Andy Marsh

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pSjOe2xQ1dk


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## Farfle (Jan 16, 2011)

IIRC, the cell tab that has an extra bit "crimped" on is actually aluminum where it comes out of the pouch, and then has a copper tab ultrasonically welded to it so that it can be soldered to. Those may not be mismanufactured, but intended to be that way.


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

Farfle said:


> IIRC, the cell tab that has an extra bit "crimped" on is actually aluminum where it comes out of the pouch, and then has a copper tab ultrasonically welded to it so that it can be soldered to. Those may not be mismanufactured, but intended to be that way.


Youre dead right Farfle, I just looked and it IS a nickel plated copper tab crimped onto the aluminium tab. I suppose that would make it easier to solder.
Chris Jones is soldering his Turnigy LiPo pack, we'll see how he did
soldering aluminium.

Another note, Ive just redesigned my cooling system AGAIN. 
The pack now has its air flowing through it from left to right not from front
to back like a radiator. The front of the pack is now sealed and rain proof,
so now I can put a single large radiator up there where it has direct full kinetic air flow which will make it more efficient than having 2 small radiators beside the pack.
http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/221169921323?ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1439.l2649
The type of radiator Im using is a transmission oil cooler, all aluminium and they come in 2 different sizes so I went from 2 small ones at the side to 1 big one in the front so Ive reduced weight and probably increased cooling efficiency (guessing here).
So now Ive got room beside the pack...hmmm what can I put there ?
The packs air intake is on the left so there will be a scoop there and
the warm air exhausts on the right but there is room for another radiator.
How about a controller radiator. 
Thinking about removing the extruded air cooled casings of both Kelly's and fitting them back to back in a single water cooled housing in aluminium. 
175v 1200A.....= 210 controller kW
btw the pack is now 42 series but I dont have any spare cells as Ive used up all the 420 I bought from YGS and wont be buying any more from them


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

Decommissioning the old Enerland pack after 2 years racing and over 2000km.not bad for B grade cells. Here the Batrium BMS is disconnected
They are now going into a mountain bike with hub motor. 24s 10p.









Yet another box goes out to the Acetal graveyard.
5 cells were dead on removal. They were punctured on assembly.










Out with the old, in with the new.
A new cradle will be cut for the thicker YGS box.
Still quick release.


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## jonescg (Nov 3, 2010)

RIPPERTON said:


> Chris Jones is soldering his Turnigy LiPo pack, we'll see how he did
> soldering aluminium.


Fortunately Turnigy cells come with a copper tab spotwelded to the ally tab. Don't believe anyone who says you can solder aluminium. There's a reason Turnigy uses resistance / ultrasonic welding of copper to it! They solder really well once this is on, so yeah, they do pretty well 



RIPPERTON said:


> 175v 1200A.....= 210 controller kW


Battery side maybe. Divide it by 1.5 to get the root mean square for both current and voltage. So in reality it will be something like 116 V and 800 A, which at 93 kW is still pretty respectable for a Kelly. Hopefully your motor can make full use of it!


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

RIPPERTON said:


> Thinking about removing the extruded air cooled casings of both Kelly's and fitting them back to back in a single water cooled housing in aluminium.
> 175v 1200A.....= 210 controller kW





jonescg said:


> Battery side maybe. Divide it by 1.5 to get the root mean square for both current and voltage. So in reality it will be something like 116 V and 800 A, which at 93 kW is still pretty respectable for a Kelly. Hopefully your motor can make full use of it!


So jones,

210 kW into controller and 93 kW out. 44% efficient. Even a Kelly won't be that bad.


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## jonescg (Nov 3, 2010)

Always be careful of inverter companies quoting strange figures.

175 V is the DC bus, top of charge. So let's say 155 V under use. The inverter converts this to a three phase AC, so the root mean square is going to be 103 V to the motor. Likewise with the phase amps. Usually they quote the true phase amps, so lets go with 1100 A on a good day. So now we have 113 kW to the motor. There will be a power factor correction of about .93, so we'll call it 100 kw. What the motor does with this 100 kW is it's problem, but I'd say 80 kW is a fair guess, of which a fair whack will be lost as heat. If Dan can get 70 kW to the rear wheel he will be doing well. No criticism - that's just how AC controllers work. 

Motor power = Sqrt3 * motor voltage * motor current * power factor correction * efficiency


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

Lets all take pot shots then shall we.
noting that a year ago I dyno'd at 45kW with 1 motor, 1 controller and a half used B grade pack.

My guess is 80kW with 2 motors 1 controller (new pack)
and 110kW with 2 controllers.

Place your bets...


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## jonescg (Nov 3, 2010)

I reckon 75-80 kW at the rear wheel would be spot on Dan


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

Cooling ports go into the left side plate.
Aluminium scoop bolts on top.
Not sure if the cells are going to get warm at all but not taking chances.
Il just have to keep bumping up the amps till they get warm.










All the pretty LiPo cells all in a row. God I love new LiPo cells
You charge them up to 4.2 and they stay there. I went through
the whole pack with a 4.2v 40A charger and balanced each cell
one by one
42 series 177v and no probs with the controller .
Went for a ride this afternoon and no sign of the cutting out or
stuttering seen at Winton 2011.










660 M4 screws in dome head cap and cs phillips head.
weighes 53kg.


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## jonescg (Nov 3, 2010)

Looks great Dan! Beautiful job as always.

I'm pleased to see you aren't skimping on your terminations; I dare say these cells won't get hot like the last packs did.

Randy has progressed on my frame so I'm looking forward to some good news this week.


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## DIYguy (Sep 18, 2008)

RIPPERTON said:


> Cooling ports go into the left side plate.
> Aluminium scoop bolts on top.
> Not sure if the cells are going to get warm at all but not taking chances.
> Il just have to keep bumping up the amps till they get warm.
> ...


Really nice job on the battery! Good on ya....


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

Thanks

heres a good vid showing the cornering speed advantage of the Rip vs Catavolt in spite of my power disadvantage. Racing behind Catavolt was a bit scary sometimes as its rear end was quite loose @37sec

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ezsPxowFWy0


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

Just fits
I knew there was something I could do with that other Kelly I had lying around


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

jonescg said:


> 175 V is the DC bus, top of charge. So let's say 155 V under use. The inverter converts this to a three phase AC, so the root mean square is going to be 103 V to the motor. Likewise with the phase amps. Usually they quote the true phase amps, so lets go with 1100 A on a good day. So now we have 113 kW to the motor. There will be a power factor correction of about .93, so we'll call it 100 kw. What the motor does with this 100 kW is it's problem, but I'd say 80 kW is a fair guess, of which a fair whack will be lost as heat. If Dan can get 70 kW to the rear wheel he will be doing well. No criticism - that's just how AC controllers work.
> 
> Motor power = Sqrt3 * motor voltage * motor current * power factor correction * efficiency



OK now apply the same formula to your $10000 Rinehart and see what you get.
Then compare that to the $3500 I spent on my Kelly's.
Im thinking 2 cheap low voltage trolrs make as much kW as 1 expensive one


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## jonescg (Nov 3, 2010)

RIPPERTON said:


> OK now apply the same formula to your $10000 Rinehart and see what you get.
> Then compare that to the $3500 I spent on my Kelly's.
> Im thinking 2 cheap low voltage trolrs make as much kW as 1 expensive one


We'll see how the two controllers play together; I've heard that EM interference can be a problem. Knowing how hard the pair of Agnis were, I decided two of anything was trouble waiting to happen, hence I opted for one big controller and one big motor. It's cost me dearly, but maybe that's the price of reliability?

I'm using the formula provided by Rineheart in their product manual.

Max motor voltage = 620 VDC / (Sqrt 2) = 438 VAC (rms)

Considering the three phase nature of an AC motor, the power needs to be multiplied by 1.73, and adjusted for the power factor and the efficiency of the motor. Assuming 0.77 for PF and 0.93 for efficiency,

Motor power = (sqrt 3) * 438 VAC * 300 A * 0.77 * 0.93 = 163 kW.

Not sure how this will be in reality, but I'd be disappointed if I couldn't get 120 kW to the rear wheel. I'll be more disappointed if I can't finish it due to lack of funds


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## evmotorcycle (Jun 23, 2010)

Well Maybe Rineheart can loan you the controller for testing purposes? Not like you are gonna run away with it or anything? I am sure you will be providing them with valuable feedback and in turn they will get to see how it performs in a race bike. 

10K is a shed load of moolah for one component. With that kind of cash you could make inroads into building a fabrication lab like Rips. 

Hope you don't run out of cash man. Any luck with sponsorship? Any news from Grant C?


----------



## major (Apr 4, 2008)

evmotorcycle said:


> ....... Rineheart............. they will get to see how it performs in a race bike.


I think they already know


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## jonescg (Nov 3, 2010)

major said:


> I think they already know


In at least three really fast bikes too  

It's more a question of does Evo want to help, and the answer is already a polite "no thanks", given I bought the last freely available AFM140 (SN:120). If you want to buy 10,000 of them they are here to help 

Andy, I need a job first! I heard there is some tutoring coming up at the uni, which is a big step backwards for me, but I think I will enjoy it a lot more than the research. It will give me enough money to keep the bike build ticking over but I doubt I will be ready in time for the first race. I'm still short by about $16k.

Enough about my pipe dreams, Danny, where's your bike at??


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

jonescg said:


> Enough about my pipe dreams, Danny, where's your bike at??



The QuadStack has a loud knocking noise under load.
I cant identify the frequency of the noise. Its too slow to be the shaft and too fast to be the rear wheel.
I though it was either one of the bearings or it might be the slightly loose fitting main drive sprocket shifting around under load.
So considering the bearings were $3 each I pulled the motor apart
and replaced them all with $12 ones.
Im also adding a 5th one just inside the main drive sprocket because there is a 35mm span out from the bearing to the drive chain center line. 
Photos later, were having another 40C heatwave down here 

When I get the motor back in Im going to hook up the second Kelly and test it.


----------



## jonescg (Nov 3, 2010)

Might be the chain if it's too slow for the shaft and too fast for the wheel?


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

Actually about 45mm span out from the center of the bearing.
You engineers can do the math on the stress of what ever newtons are coming back up the chain and trying to snap the 30mm Diameter 7075T6 aluminium shaft.
Ill just go with good ol designer feel and say it needs some support.










So a few hours of CAD and CNC and the stress is relieved. Ahhhhhh


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

Got this 0.7mm carbon fiber sheet from Germany to make covers for the QuadStack but knew it wouldnt turn out great cause these covers needed to be bent and carbon fiber does NOT bend, but it does cnc quite well.
It did fray a bit as the tip crossed the weave but fixed it on the linish belt.
So as long as you are making a flat part and can justify the expense CF, it sure looks cool but in this case the 0.6mm alloy sheet got the job.










The slots are for the laser thermometer to check coil temp.


----------



## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

RIPPERTON said:


> ...carbon fiber does NOT bend, but it does cnc quite well...


Since that part is not structural, and your angles are pretty mild, you could probably get that to bend with heat. Heat, bend, clamp, and cool. It will likely lose some of its original structural properties in the process, but you never really needed all of them... 

Option two would be to lay up your own c/f panel using a metal one as a mold.


----------



## electro wrks (Mar 5, 2012)

RIPPERTON said:


> Actually about 45mm span out from the center of the bearing.
> You engineers can do the math on the stress of what ever newtons are coming back up the chain and trying to snap the 30mm Diameter 7075T6 aluminium shaft.
> Ill just go with good ol designer feel and say it needs some support.
> 
> ...


Although the 7075T6 aluminum alloy you use for the motor shafts has about the same tensile strength as some alloy steels, its stiffness(resistance to deflection), as with all regular aluminum alloys, is only about 1/3 that of steel. That is to say, with everything else being equal, the pull of the chain would deflect an aluminum shaft about 3X more than a steel shaft.

This could be a problem where close tolerance air gaps and other clearances are present.


----------



## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

Thanks wrks, so the ally wont break under direct force compared to steel but it will fatigue sooner than steel.
Il try that with the CF Todd thanks also.

I rode the R1 yesterday with both controllers and its a completely different bike, It will easily take on the GP450's this year. The power or "punch" or throttle response is like a 600cc bike. The regen also saw an increase in power and is easily capable of locking the rear wheel without being on the front brake at all.
I connected a total of 9 wires from C2, all from the J2 plug, spliced them into the wiring from C1.
Hall U,V,W.
power input 24v pos & neg
throttle analog
brake analog
brake switch
reverse switch

C2 J1 plug is not used. I also built in a 12v-24v power supply just for the controllers. Kelly say they prefer 24v.
I got some beefier 120mm fans for the controlers and now the 2.5A 12v power supply doesnt have enough grunt to push both fans, water pump and controllers so I ordered a 10A plug pack on Ebay.
Heres some shots of the stator temp monitoring system I attached to the side of C2.



















Heres a virtual upside down shot of the temp readouts inside the tank cover . They are upside down so I can read them when I am riding.


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

Well I can honestly say I shit my pants this afternoon.
After a bit of boosting around my streets I finally found the courage and the room to open the throttle and holy crap the bike took off like nothing I have ever ridden. Easily as much power as an R6.
I was left fumbling for the brakes muttering shit shit shit trying to get the thing back down to a safe speed before the next corner.
This years racing is going to be very interesting.
Heres the Batrium control panel showing the voltage monitors.
Cell 32 is a bit low.


----------



## evmotorcycle (Jun 23, 2010)

Oh I can feel some video coming on soon Mr Ripperton!


----------



## SplinterOz (Apr 13, 2011)

RIPPERTON said:


> Well I can honestly say I shit my pants this afternoon.
> After a bit of boosting around my streets I finally found the courage and the room to open the throttle and holy crap the bike took off like nothing I have ever ridden. Easily as much power as an R6.
> I was left fumbling for the brakes muttering shit shit shit trying to get the thing back down to a safe speed before the next corner.
> This years racing is going to be very interesting.
> ...


 Awesome, can't wait for the first round... do we know where and when?


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

http://www.formula-xtreme.com.au/xt...9160C3B23F02E098CA257AA6001E2992!OpenDocument

Im going to ask Grant if I can run my bike in 2 classes.
TTXGP and eFXC
will get someone else to ride in eFXC against the GP450's and 2 strokes.


----------



## jonescg (Nov 3, 2010)

RIPPERTON said:


> http://www.formula-xtreme.com.au/xt...9160C3B23F02E098CA257AA6001E2992!OpenDocument
> 
> Im going to ask Grant if I can run my bike in 2 classes.
> TTXGP and eFXC
> will get someone else to ride in eFXC against the GP450's and 2 strokes.


Grant might need confirmation of a few more bikes. Like I said on the phone, I'm at least $12k short on finishing my bike but if I find a job soon I might be able to make it to Winton. Besides, I have a lap record to defend!


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

As you can see on the graph readout cells 4 and 32 were a bit low.
I did an extra 4km and those 2 cells have crashed but not damaged.
The Batrium BMS warned me with a red dash light and I limped it home.
I pulled the pack out and had a closer look at those 2 cells and cant really find anything. They are not bloated or have loose bus bars.
I hooked up a 40A 4.5v charger and they both came up quickly.
Scratching my head here. I used all 420 cells I got from YGS and dont have any spares. I got on to them and asked for another 450.
They are still talking to me in spite of me trashing them after the short tabs fiasco but the Chinese are on one of their many holidays and cant get anything to me till end of Feb.


----------



## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

RIPPERTON said:


> I hooked up a 40A 4.5v charger and they both came up quickly.


If they came up quicker than other cells it sounds as if they have less capacity. Have you measured their actual capacity as compared to the other cells?


----------



## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

Just spoke with Grant Cresswell and we will not be running with TTXGP this year. Its an amical and temporary split but because of the numbers, Aus Superbike ran the electrics at a loss last year so cant justify the added expense of TTXGP affiliation this year. We will still be able to qualify
for a wild card invitation at the World Finals (Japan).
Better for us at the moment because it means slightly lower entry fees and more events.
This year will be the integration year were we or I at least will be proving that my bike is fast enough to run in the GP 450 class.
Move over Cavemen !


----------



## jonescg (Nov 3, 2010)

I figured this might be the case, but at least it means more track time, more races and cheaper fees. Really all we ever wanted eh?

It also means I can enter any race I want, when I want. If my bike isn't ready until August, then I will just race in August. Although it will be good to have a bit of a battle with you Dan


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## evmotorcycle (Jun 23, 2010)

Just spoke with Grant myself. TTXGP is in talks with FIM so they are out of the equation this year. New production class for eFXC will mean that we may have some Zero's coming along. 

I spoke with grant about approaching sponsors for the media. He is happy to co-operate. The plan is to get a 'presenter' or anchor person for the series and to raise the production values once again. There may even be the option of getting this onto free to air. 

All of this awesomeness requires a cash injection so I intend to approach some media sponsors to make this happen. Fingers crossed! 

So once the Daytona edit is finished it's media proposal time!


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

JRP3 said:


> If they came up quicker than other cells it sounds as if they have less capacity. Have you measured their actual capacity as compared to the other cells?


JR, I dont have gear to measure capacity or internal resistance but Ive removed one of the low blocks and removed one of its balance bars so the offending cell can leak but so far all 10 cells are dead even.
I can still put it back together and run it down to half capacity for testing
untill some new cells arrive.


----------



## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

If you time how long it takes to charge a cell at a specific current you can get a good idea of it's capacity compared to others. Say you have two cells at the same discharged voltage, charge them at 10 amps, one of them is charged in an hour, the other takes an hour and 15 minutes. One cell would have around 10 ah's of capacity and the other around 12 ah's. Measure temperature rise to check for excessive resistance.


----------



## God of Speed (Feb 13, 2013)

So this is where everyone hangs out!

Dan, Chris and Jon. This is Charlie from RMIT electric racing, i have been emailing you for a while getting advice for the university race car. see below:



















the future of TTXGP and eFXC is a bright one, considering building a bike once i am finished uni.


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

Nice car Charlie hope you get it going well.

So guess who owns the fastest electric race bike in Australia...
thats right, 198.3kmh and 12.5 seconds on the quarter.
Also got to weight it in the WSID scrutineering shed 170kg.
The controllers are still cutting out due to over current probably because they are operating in the same conditions as previously. 1 controller for 1 motor and lots of load. 
I had to take about 3/4 of the track to roll on the throttle and could only give full throttle at about 130km.
but the motors felt very perky all through the rev range.
So that was the structural testing of the drive train, ie chain and sprockets, shafts bearings and motor frame and mounts all ok
Now for some thermal testing. riding under the same loads for 10 minutes instead of just 15 seconds. Off to the track...
Il get some video later, only shot 1 run where it cut out 3 times,
At least I beat a Harley


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## evmotorcycle (Jun 23, 2010)

Awesome, getting close to the 200 mark there Danny! Maybe with the controllers adjusted you might break it?


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## jonescg (Nov 3, 2010)

With the right gearing, Voltron I would have cracked 200 km/h. It just would have taken all day to get there, and probably overheated the armature while it was at it. 

The fact that Dan was able to hit nearly 200 km/h in a quarter-mile, even with his throttle/controller issues is a testament to his ingenuity. I'm keen to see how she goes on the circuit!

Just a thought, with our bikes looking set to be a quantum leap from last year...
If we have a single speed which is able to be used from 0 to 200, it makes sense that the throttle is quite twitchy. Compared to something with a selection of gearbox reductions, the sensitivity of the throttle is tempered by the limitations of the rev-range in that gear.


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

Did 3 laps of Sydney Motorsport Park Ride Day today for a grand total of $94.
(the price of just 1 session if you havnt internet booked)
But they were some of the best laps Ive ever ridden in my life.
I went in B grade, thats second fastest and the bike was totally aggressive and I was able to fight with 600's on corner entries, it was basically like a unmodified 600 sport bike.
The stator temp gauges went off scale at about 105C and didnt know how hot the motors were after that, plus the synch chain over heated and went stiff which didnt let the motors turn over freely so I thought the shafts had drifted and the rotors were touching the stators. 
Took it home and pulled it apart and found this. Some of the links had siezed so I will have to put an oring chain in there after I make more room for it.


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

Ill be putting another radiator in as the larger single rad didnt really cope with the heat of 2 motors in spite of being in direct frontal air flow.
The controllers on the other hand remained very cool with the 138cfm
fans blowing small tornados through the insides of them.
http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/220833473930?ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1439.l2649
Had the Vapor dash temp gauge monitoring those and didnt get over 41C.


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## electro wrks (Mar 5, 2012)

.
Took it home and pulled it apart and found this. Some of the links had siezed so I will have to put an oring chain in there after I make more room for it.
[IMG said:


> http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e62/ripperton_2008/Electric%20R1/MXchain_zpscdd1ccbd.jpg[/IMG]


Great progress and welcome to the blue chain club. An o-ring chain probably won't last much longer. Too much speed and too much kinkiness[?]. I know you had a bad experience with a toothed belt drive on your final, but it might be time to consider one for this ap. The fixed shaft centers of the motor tie-in(unlike the swing arm), with a high quality idler on the normal slack side, would be a better fit for a t-belt.


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

I could very well end up with a belt there wrks.
The chain is just doing too much work and going around too many tight corners.
Anyway the radiator sprouted another radiator, stacked right on top of the first one but stepped off to one side so the hot side of each rad has only one thickness. The inlets are marked in red
The 2 right stators cool through the back rad and the 2 left stators cool through the front rad then the water mixes and goes back to the reservoir. So now the water takes twice as long to go through the rads









This is the backside of the rad bolts onto the battery cradle.


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## evmotorcycle (Jun 23, 2010)

Looks great there Ripperton! Very tidy job indeed!


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

Disaster has struck the Ripperton Lab,
in its last gasps of life as a smog blowing 2 stroke the NSR250 frame fell over on an uncapped 5l bottle of used engine oil in the middle of the night releasing this mile long oil slick down the Ripperton driveway where many Earth loving EV's have inhaled their first electrons.









Heres the culprit \/ 










Took me an hour of head scratching to figure out I could use the acetal chips from the cnc as a sort of saw dust to soak up (?) the heathen hydrocarbons. now man the shovels and bin the lot .
Here I walk on the acetal covered slick like an EV Jesus


----------



## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

I can see the headlines now, "EV conversion project causes oil spill"


----------



## electro wrks (Mar 5, 2012)

Man, you are really going to confuse the oil company spy satellites and drones.


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

Another night down at the Drag Strip with the controllers in safe mode.
Thought this would produce faster 1/4 times but didnt.
What I call "safe mode" is actually called "Boost Function" in the Kelly GUI
but it doesnt do any boosting.
Safe mode commandeers a ramping chip that is normally used for modulating regen braking. Regen braking thus operates in switch mode to a preset value. The chip keeps motor current below the tripping or over current threshold with a certain margin even with the throttle held wide open.
The margin, as Ive discovered is quite large. I can actually control the throttle myself in "trip mode" to run between the safe ramp and the trip ramp
but then I have to deal with the error factor and the risk of tripping.
So safe mode produces VERY consistent performance.
over 5 runs my 1/4 times varied 0.021 seconds BUT they are 1.4 seconds slower than my best "fluke" trip mode times.
Safe mode: 13.977, 193 kmh
Trip mode: 12.577, 190 kmh.
Still no video or BMS data
and my dash speedo needs to be recalibrated since the smaller rear tire was fitted so initial 200kmh speedo readings were optimistic.


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

You can all tell what Im thinking right ?










There was something in the front radiator that was blocking water flowing through it and the 2 left stators but couldnt find what it was.
There is a twisted strip of aluminium in the pipe that creates swirl, maybe it was the cause so Im going back to a proper motorcycle radiator and this is one the 4 into 1 adaptors that will take water to the 4 water pumps.
Thats right, 1 for each stator.
I can pick up a GSXR 1000 radiator down at the wreckers for $200.
So now I will have virtually metered flow through each of the 4 stators as long as all 4 pumps are running. Im decommissioning the current pump and Ive ordered 4 new ones off Ebay.


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## evmotorcycle (Jun 23, 2010)

Sounds like a plan for sure!


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

Gix radiator is in and most of the plumbing is connected, just waiting on the 4 new pumps.


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## CrazyAl (May 9, 2011)

RIPPERTON said:


>


Can do some burnouts on it.


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

Took the R1 down to SMP today for the first round of the Australian Superbikes where I could get a free dyno run. Results... 100hp, 225kmh
so motor rpm was 5821
Kev Curtains 2013 R1 dyno'd at 160hp.
The Dyno guy said my bike was like a lot of slightly worked 600 line 4 bikes like R6's.
Heres video.





http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b6CgAF0Dd10


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## evmotorcycle (Jun 23, 2010)

Awesome!!!!!!


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## jonescg (Nov 3, 2010)

jonescg said:


> I reckon 75-80 kW at the rear wheel would be spot on Dan



 Nice work buddy! I can't wait to dice it up with ya!
Chris


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

Theres more
The Varley bike got dyno'd today too, 100hp.
CBR600 frame with Tritium wave sculptor and they will be on the grid in May.
Catavolt will also be on the grid but with the air cooled hub motor
used last year.
Enertrack are developing a water cooled version as we speak.

Ive asked Kelly to tweak the safe mode setting so it not so safe.
It seems to run at 80% of trip current but Ive asked them to increase that up to 95%. Then I would have to reflash the chips as this is not adjustable in the GUI.


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## jonescg (Nov 3, 2010)

RIPPERTON said:


> Theres more
> The Varley bike got dyno'd today too, 100hp.
> CBR600 frame with Tritium wave sculptor and they will be on the grid in May.
> Catavolt will also be on the grid but with the air cooled hub motor
> ...


Funds permitting, I may be there too. But it will be a long shot. Definitely hoping to be there in time for the race after, if not May.

Are Varley using that Carbon motor?


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

jonescg said:


> Are Varley using that Carbon motor?


Yep
It might have 100hp but its going to be quite a heavy bike.
Im going to try to talk to them tmrw.

Catavolt will be in suicide mode like it was at the final last year.


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## jonescg (Nov 3, 2010)

I was going to say, that Carbon motor is a chunky mother for it's power. I think it even needs a set of induction coils for it to work properly; although they may have addressed that by now.

Could be one of the best lineups yet


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

Ive switched back to trip mode and reduced max motor amps down to 90% and it doesnt trip out even as low as 80kmh under full throttle.
so now Ive got the best of both worlds...
1. variable regen
2. totally awesome acceleration without tripping out.
You know in Star Trek when they go to "Warp Speed Captain" and
the stars go all blurry ? its like that. 

Heres a few shots of the quad pump system










laminated connector branch









top down view of flow


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## kennybobby (Aug 10, 2012)

*Hose clamps?*

Need any to secure the clear tubing--it could be a bad day if a hose let go mid-corner on the track...


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

YGS seem to have redeemed themselves.
I actually got what I asked for this time.
Got normal length tabs and the positive one was left as alloy not with a copper extension crimp welded on.
Heres what $6k worth of Lipo looks like. Again the Fedex guy was quite surprised when I told him what was in those boxes, he was an RC guy and had to take a couple of shots of the bike.










Alloy pos tab


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

me spinning up the rear on slightly dusty concrete

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZqV78OrRyYk


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## SplinterOz (Apr 13, 2011)

Man that is quick!


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

I dug up an old Kats water heater that im going to put in the Mira
and connected it up to the R1 LiPo battery.
The heater is 1000 Watts and took 2 minutes and 55 seconds to boil the half liter of water in the Kats.
Im not very good at math so you can figure out what kind of power was going on there.
The Kats should do well in the Mira at 136v.


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## mj2412 (Dec 13, 2011)

Hi Ripperton,
what kind of water pump you are using?

Thanks Martin


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

mj2412 said:


> Hi Ripperton,
> what kind of water pump you are using?
> 
> Thanks Martin


These found on Ebay
http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/260895901599?ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1439.l2649


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

Practice today at Wakefield
Just quickly new personal best time of 1m 10sec, 4sec off Catavolt record
New top speed of 190kmh.
Newcomers Varley are very fast on straight but heavier and slower in turns
and crashed today in practice, thier best 1m15sec


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## SplinterOz (Apr 13, 2011)

RIPPERTON said:


> Just quickly new personal best time of 1m 10sec, 4sec off Catavolt record
> New top speed of 190kmh.
> Newcomers Varley are very fast on straight but heavier and slower in turns
> and crashed today in practice, thier best 1m15sec



Good news!... will see you tomorrow.


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## jonescg (Nov 3, 2010)

Just Varley and you then?

I thought their bike might be a bit on the porky side. More power demands more weight, to some extent, but that Carbon motor is an anchor!

You haven't crashed yet mate - seems you aren't pushing it hard enough 

Good luck eh

Chris


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## frodus (Apr 12, 2008)

Good luck guys!


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

jonescg said:


> Just Varley and you then?
> 
> I thought their bike might be a bit on the porky side. More power demands more weight, to some extent, but that Carbon motor is an anchor!
> 
> You haven't crashed yet mate - seems you aren't pushing it hard enough


Catavolt made it through customs just in time but only with the air cooled motor
Jason has turned the Kellys up to 50% but still only doing 1m18s.

Varley is about 200kg but thier worst prob is cornering clearance. Jeff Phillips Varley CEO is riding it and he cant lean it over so corner speed is bad plus he says hes not well practiced.

I cant afford to crash Chris but I still get very close to the limit....never over it.


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

Race went well
I came first 9 sec ahead
Catavolt second Varley third
Almost lost the synch chain as it threw a single oring, the offset side plates struck the teeth on the sprocket and made a clonking noise.


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

Heres my CAN charge program after todays race.
Bottom half of page everything gets added together except time because there are 2 chargers.
19km 7 min 18 s
Ah 25.4
kWh 4.68
1 hour 5 min
$1.12c


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

Dont know how this happened but after winning Sundays race i recharged the pack and turned both controllers up to 100% then went for a dyno run and the bike went off its fkn head and spewed out 154hp.


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## jonescg (Nov 3, 2010)

Yes, that is a mystery, but not one to worry about  Nice work.

How'd the others go?


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

jonescg said:


> How'd the others go?


We had a staggered start for Sundays race which got botched because somebody wasnt communicating with the flag marshal that was waving us off the start line.
I was due to go on a 14 second delay but heard another marshal from the track side yelling GO..GO but the flag marshal was doing nothing. so I just went.
Varley was first to go and he hammered it off the line in seriousness, then Jason went 4 seconds later. As I was going up the hill I saw a cloud of dust at the hairpin, came back down the hill and saw Jeff (Varley) sitting on his ass in the infield, his bike on its side, That was a disappointment for me too but I took off after Jason who was doing good speed with his Kellys turned up to 50%. With my Kellys turned down to 90% I still managed to trip going up the hill on lap 2 so had to shutdown and switch back on losing time. With my regen turned down to 70% the bike was a dream to ride.
I eventually caught Jason on lap 5 on the back straight and hammered it all the way home. Awesome racing and I really starting to see the potential for electric race bikes....just need more copper.


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## Arlo (Dec 27, 2009)

RIPPERTON said:


> Heres my CAN charge program after todays race.
> Bottom half of page everything gets added together except time because there are 2 chargers.
> 19km 7 min 18 s
> Ah 25.4
> ...


 Good job man. What controllers are you running?


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## jonescg (Nov 3, 2010)

RIPPERTON said:


> ...or Sundays race which got botched because somebody wasnt communication with the flag marshal that was waving us off the start line.
> I was due to go on a 14 second delay but heard another marshal from the track side yelling GO..GO but the flag marshal was doing nothing. so I just went.


Why, oh why does this not surprise me...

Great to hear there was still some good racing, and a real shame the Varley bike spent too much time on it's side. I hate Wakefield Park, but only cause I got spat off it twice...

If there's no replacement for displacement, then the whopper is in the copper.

What did you/are you going to do about the chain link? Seems like it's prone to overheating? A timing belt could work, but it might get just as hot.


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

Arlo said:


> Good job man. What controllers are you running?


http://kellycontroller.com/khb1460124-144v600aopto-bldc-controllerwith-regen-p-829.html
Kelly KBL14601. The sheer volume of mother nature that comes out of these little boxes never ceases to astonish me.
I am going to fit a throttle to the 85cfm fans that i use to force air cool these controllers as they actually run too cool, ie draw too much off the 12v system.

http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/EP98-Goo...Electrical_Test_Equipment&hash=item19db0210e8


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

jonescg said:


> Why, oh why does this not surprise me...
> Great to hear there was still some good racing, and a real shame the Varley bike spent too much time on it's side. I hate Wakefield Park, but only cause I got spat off it twice...
> If there's no replacement for displacement, then the whopper is in the copper.
> What did you/are you going to do about the chain link? Seems like it's prone to overheating? A timing belt could work, but it might get just as hot.


Thats not all, they didnt correct the results after the race.
Jason physically crossed the finish line 3 seconds behind me and I started 10 seconds after he did, So he actually finished 13 seconds behind me.
The race results say he finished 3 seconds behind !!!!! 

The Varley bike is seriously fast. The Ultramotive is similar to your motor and I can tell you right now, your bike will be too fast for you !!!
so you better find an experienced racer for the start of next season.
In a couple of hours of first seeing the Varley, I completely redesigned it in my head making it lighter and handle better.
The motor sits too far forward because the jack shaft runs directly behind it. In their first test session last week they found the front tire hit the motor under braking so they made new triple clamps that had 20mm more offset which in turn reduce the trail by almost that much. That was a drastic change to the steering geometry and probably caused the Sunday crash which was a front wheel wash.
So the redesign is flip the motor around so the drive side is on the same side as the rear sprocket. move the motor back into the swingarm pivot recess. run a stub jack shaft off the face of the motor just in front of the swingarm pivot to relay the power off the motor shaft. Now the front wheel can come back to where its supposed to be.
They are actually using a Harley Davidson triple row primary chain and sprocket set going back to the jack shaft !!. heavy.

I can get away with replacing the synch chain every race and not spend too much time working on a motor setup that has no real future. I want to make a single shaft motor that has about 30kg stator mass


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

some shots from SplinterOz


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

Varley


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

Australian Superbike champ Russel Holland had a go of my bike in Sundays warmup and liked it. Said it was a very usable bike proving I have retained all the bikes good handling dynamics. He only got 3 laps in before warmup was finished but did 1m12s still faster than Catavolt.


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## jonescg (Nov 3, 2010)

RIPPERTON said:


> The Varley bike is seriously fast. The Ultramotive is similar to your motor and I can tell you right now, your bike will be too fast for you !!!
> so you better find an experienced racer for the start of next season.
> In a couple of hours of first seeing the Varley, I completely redesigned it in my head making it lighter and handle better.
> The motor sits too far forward because the jack shaft runs directly behind it. In their first test session last week they found the front tire hit the motor under braking so they made new triple clamps that had 20mm more offset which in turn reduce the trail by almost that much. That was a drastic change to the steering geometry and probably caused the Sunday crash which was a front wheel wash.
> ...


Indeed, I will hopefully have a full summer of riding to get back into it, but my plan was always to get a good rider first. I think power to weight hits a ceiling, and after that you struggle to get any faster around a circuit. Hopefully my bike will be at the sweet spot 

Once you mentioned the weight of the Varley motor being too far forward, I knew exactly why their front wheel was washing. Voltron had the same problem - the CoG was much further forward, and lower than it used to be. Hence my desire to keep the Evo motor where it is and not run a jackshaft etc. 

I guess that's why I'm getting Randy and Karsten at Framecrafters to build it for me, and not some local mining / engineering firm. Geometry is everything. Even the 250 kg Blackbird steers around turns 1-5 at Wanneroo mercifully - a nod to the CBR developers at Honda.


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

jonescg said:


> Once you mentioned the weight of the Varley motor being too far forward, I knew exactly why their front wheel was washing.



It wasnt the weight being too far forward it was more the way the tire worked and turned on the surface of the track. Also the way it deflected when loaded and hit bumps. We saw onbike vid of the crash, the bike just lost the front and hit down hard. They rashed both sides of the bike in 2 different crashes.
The first one on Friday was caused by the motor thermo fan hitting the ground lifting the rear tire.


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

Flyby of all 3 bikes in race 1 Saturday.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sjgixCjj_m0


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

Awesome video of race 2 on Sunday with 190kmh flybys.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rMF9yprFue0&feature=youtu.be


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

Our eFXC tech inspector managed to video the dyno run.
feast your ears.
Watch Brads right wrist at 8 seconds.
there was a bit of smoke at 37 seconds.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hl9nYCYE4bc


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## SplinterOz (Apr 13, 2011)

RIPPERTON said:


> Our eFXC tech inspector managed to video the dyno run.
> feast your ears.
> Watch Brads right wrist at 8 seconds.
> there was a bit of smoke at 37 seconds.
> ...



It was a great weekend... looking forward to August.


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## rochesterricer (Jan 5, 2011)

153 hp? Nice. Thats damn close to what 1000 cc sportbikes are putting out stock. Mighty impressive, wont be long before we are catching up to the gas bikes at this rate.


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

rochesterricer said:


> 153 hp? Nice. Thats damn close to what 1000 cc sportbikes are putting out stock. Mighty impressive, wont be long before we are catching up to the gas bikes at this rate.


The 98R1 had 136hp and weighed 200kg with a full tank
Mine now has about 115hp cause I have to run the controllers at 90% because the motors are still too small. The bike weighes 175kg.
For the dyno run I turned the controllers up to 100%.
Mine will eventually have over 200hp and weigh 190kg
Both controllers put out 210kW (175v x 1200A) minus up to 10% losses in the motor, 190kW = 254 hp. But to get that much out of the controllers I have to have a big enough motor.
Yes in the end electric bikes will out perform gas bikes


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

I finally got the heat shrink on the main battery braids (aluminium) to shrink.
ie the braid got a little warm probably during the dyno run so I added a 3rd braid and new heatshrink. Had to make new terminal bars from thicker 6.5mm alloy to make room for the Batrium LongMons going in under the braids, moved them out from the side pod for better cooling air flow.


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

I was getting warm air out of the radiator going into the battery (I think) so I fitted some ducts and sealed the scoop for good pressurization.


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

fitted some more threaded elbows to the left side motor frame for neater hose running.


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

I dont usually do math but this got interesting.
My bike used 305Whkm during the recent Wakefield races.
My friends Suzuki GSXR750 uses 181ml of unleaded per km racing on the same track.
Converted into a value of electricity for refinement of the fuel,
the Suzuki came out to 287Whkm. 
Then try to factor in the Engineering, Drilling and shipping costs before the refinery and the transport costs going from refinery to gas station and the cost of running all the gas stations and exhaust fans in tunnels.
The oil industry on a recreational and commuter basis is doomed.


----------



## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

While I agree with your conclusion I wonder what figures you used to calculate the energy usage? If it's the often quoted 7kWh of electricity per gallon refining number that keeps being used it's quite wrong.


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

JRP3 said:


> While I agree with your conclusion I wonder what figures you used to calculate the energy usage? If it's the often quoted 7kWh of electricity per gallon refining number that keeps being used it's quite wrong.


Nope it was a rough average of 6kWh (1.6kWh per liter)
http://gatewayev.org/how-much-electricity-is-used-refine-a-gallon-of-gasoline


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Yeah that's way off as I've been discussing here:
http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showpost.php?p=354026&postcount=47
Quick summary is there maybe 6kWh of equivalent energy used to create a gallon of gas, from drilling and refining, but only a small portion of that is actual electricity.


----------



## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

JRP3 said:


> Yeah that's way off as I've been discussing here:
> http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showpost.php?p=354026&postcount=47
> Quick summary is there maybe 6kWh of equivalent energy used to create a gallon of gas, from drilling and refining, but only a small portion of that is actual electricity.


so thats only 238Wh per gallon. !!


----------



## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

Another awesome test session out at SMP.
25km this time averaging 101kmh. new top speed of 205kmh.
The LiPo's come down pretty roughly as Ive come to expect but this is
about as good as it gets.
This is bottom of charge. 133v










Heres top of charge 1h 45m later. Ive throttled back for the balancing
41Ah, 7.4kWh, $1.80. the pack has a voltage span of 44 volts (25%)


----------



## kennybobby (Aug 10, 2012)

That is a great set of data presented by the screenshots, thanks for sharing. Looks like a really top of the line BMS and software package for display.

1. Looking at two of the lower capacity cells (30, 36)--they required the greatest amount of bypass current and heated up the most during charging. The bypass and the cell temperatures during charging also seem to track the bypass currents. So this cell chemistry is very thermally responsive near the end of charge and monitoring temperatures can be quite a useful tool.

2. Is cell 1 at the top of the pack? The cell temperatures seem to fall in a linear manner from 1 to 42, maybe heat soaking up from bottom to top.

3. How many laps do you get in a session?


----------



## jonescg (Nov 3, 2010)

I've noticed that LiPo (Lithium Cobalt) tends to be thermally stable during discharge, but then right at the end it seems to get much hotter much quicker. Almost as if squeezing the last Ah out generates more heat than the dozen before it.

Nice work on your top speed there mate, blown my record by 25 km/h. Are you using the whole circuit (including the funky squiggle between T6 and the hairpin) or the original circuit?

Kenny - typically most Aussie racing formats are about 25-30 km races, so 5 or 6 laps of Eastern Cr... sorry, Sydney Motorsports park.


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

kennybobby said:


> That is a great set of data presented by the screenshots, thanks for sharing. Looks like a really top of the line BMS and software package for display.


Thats Batrium. they have graciously sponsored me for X amount.
http://www.batrium.com/



kennybobby said:


> 1. Looking at two of the lower capacity cells (30, 36)--they required the greatest amount of bypass current and heated up the most during charging.


That IS an astute observation Kenny. thanks
Unfortunately the BMS boards arnt attached to the actual cell so it cant monitor its direct temp. The temp strip on top of the pack did go off the scale again during the session and yes a lot of the temp was at bottom of charge. Would have been about 60C but no cells showed any swelling.
The kinetic ramair system doesnt really do it so going to move on to a powered air cooling system like 2 fans blowing air into the box.



kennybobby said:


> 2. Is cell 1 at the top of the pack?


Cell 1 is the negative terminal at the bottom of the pack



kennybobby said:


> 3. How many laps do you get in a session?


did 5 and a half laps of the Brabham circuit 4.5km
http://www.sydneymotorsportpark.com.au/about-the-park


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

jonescg said:


> I've noticed that LiPo (Lithium Cobalt) tends to be thermally stable during discharge, but then right at the end it seems to get much hotter much quicker. Almost as if squeezing the last Ah out generates more heat than the dozen before it.


Exactly right ol chum and when the heat does hit you need to be able to get it out. Seriously think your pack need some aeration.



jonescg said:


> Nice work on your top speed there mate, blown my record by 25 km/h. Are you using the whole circuit (including the funky squiggle between T6 and the hairpin) or the original circuit?


That was on the Brabham circuit yes, 4.5km. The "funky squiggle" is hard work, left right left right blahh but coming out of it up the cork screw is a blast.



jonescg said:


> Kenny - typically most Aussie racing formats are about 25-30 km races, so 5 or 6 laps of Eastern Cr... sorry, Sydney Motorsports park.


Wakefield was 13km so SMP will be the GP circuit (4km).


----------



## jonescg (Nov 3, 2010)

Well I don't think I'll be hammering my pack as hard as you hammer yours. 5C from my pack will be almost 50 kW. And since the heat really only appears in the last part of the discharge, you would think that a LVC warning should give you plenty of warning. I'll go for crash-proofing and water proofing before a cooling system, but if they do get too hot I can always vent the pack from the top.


----------



## kennybobby (Aug 10, 2012)

5 and 1/2 laps? Oh yeah i've done half laps before at road atlanta, never a fun ride back on the sag wagon. Hope you just ran out of 'fuel' as opposed to surfing asphalt...


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

kennybobby said:


> 5 and 1/2 laps? Oh yeah i've done half laps before at road atlanta, never a fun ride back on the sag wagon. Hope you just ran out of 'fuel' as opposed to surfing asphalt...


heh no,we have a back entrance to the pits half way round the track.
The BMS red light came on just after T1 so I limped home


----------



## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

jonescg said:


> Well I don't think I'll be hammering my pack as hard as you hammer yours. 5C from my pack will be almost 50 kW. And since the heat really only appears in the last part of the discharge, you would think that a LVC warning should give you plenty of warning. I'll go for crash-proofing and water proofing before a cooling system, but if they do get too hot I can always vent the pack from the top.


with 3 parallel you will be hammering your pack more than I hammer my 10 parallel.
Well I mean Im pulling 900 amps only at full throttle low speed. thats 90 amps per cell.
high speed full throttle is a different thing, less current.


----------



## jonescg (Nov 3, 2010)

Most AC motors will hit the torque 'knee' at half speed, so that should be as high as the motor currents get before field weakening kicks in, effectively trading motor current for more speed. So I'm curious to see how the dyno data will look. Luckily I have a dyno workshop down the road from me, but they aren't cheap.

It will be interesting to see how the two stack up - high volts versus high currents. Your cells are 4 Ah each right? At 10p that's still 20C. I can't see me needing more than 200 A from my batteries (13C) anyway. Besides, the $180 fuses will pop if I go above that for too long. I'm told the Rineharts have more configurable parameters than you can shake a current clamp at, so I'm in for some fun.

I reckon I will be ready to order some cells once my tax return comes in


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

Someone elses QuadStack

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-nVw3Y9iVao


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

201kmh in a straight line, spins up to 206 tipping in.
Average 101kmh around Brabham, long circuit at SMP.
15 June will be first ever Gas V Electric bike race in Australia. (Wakefield)


----------



## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

Competition update.
Catavolt has transformed !
Jon got a complete Yamaha R6 for free and he is putting the water cooled
Enertrack twin hub motor in the back of it !!!!!.
Apparently Jason Morris (rider) was up there eagerly ripping the R6 apart so it would be ready for the Willowbank race in August.
Finaly he got a bike that handles.


----------



## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

350W Jumpy Castle fan put on an acetal pedestal.
Blows air both down the battery case duct and at the radiator.


----------



## jonescg (Nov 3, 2010)

You plan on keeping one of these in the pits? With temperatures in Goulburn lately you might not need it!


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## TheTherapist (Jun 10, 2013)

I am 100% noob when it comes to anything EV related but why is your bike only 385 lbs (175kg) when bikes like Motocycz E1pc, Mission RS, and Lightening all weigh 500+ lbs? What makes your bike so different? 

Excuse my ignorance, I'm waiting for my EV bible to come in from amazon so I can start researching this stuff before I make my own EV bike.


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

TheTherapist said:


> I am 100% noob when it comes to anything EV related but why is your bike only 385 lbs (175kg) when bikes like Motocycz E1pc, Mission RS, and Lightening all weigh 500+ lbs? What makes your bike so different?


Power and range; but that's just my guess


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## TheTherapist (Jun 10, 2013)

major said:


> Power and range; but that's just my guess


You're the one who made or rides the lightening, right? Congrats on the 215 mph world record


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

TheTherapist said:


> I am 100% noob when it comes to anything EV related but why is your bike only 385 lbs (175kg) when bikes like Motocycz E1pc, Mission RS, and Lightening all weigh 500+ lbs? What makes your bike so different?
> 
> Excuse my ignorance, I'm waiting for my EV bible to come in from amazon so I can start researching this stuff before I make my own EV bike.



They have literally twice the amount of battery on board.
I have 7.4kWh because my races are short 13km sprints.
They have about 14kWh because they have to do IOM 62km non stop.
My pack is 53kg so add that on to 170kg to double the pack size and you get about 225kg.
Their engineering is very good, they are very light for what they are.


----------



## major (Apr 4, 2008)

TheTherapist said:


> You're the one who made or rides the lightening, right? Congrats on the 215 mph world record


It's Lightning. And they don't let me ride her  I'll stick with the wrenches. 

Rip has built himself a pretty good little bike. Seems like he is a one man team so he gets to ride and wrench both.


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## TheTherapist (Jun 10, 2013)

RIPPERTON said:


> They have literally twice the amount of battery on board.
> I have 7.4kWh because my races are short 13km sprints.
> They have about 14kWh because they have to do IOM 62km non stop.
> My pack is 53kg so add that on to 170kg to double the pack size and you get about 225kg.
> Their engineering is very good, they are very light for what they are.


Thanks for the response, people on this forum are a lot nicer than on other forums



major said:


> It's Lightning. And they don't let me ride her  I'll stick with the wrenches.
> 
> Rip has built himself a pretty good little bike. Seems like he is a one man team so he gets to ride and wrench both.


Yeah, sorry about the typo. I'm on my phone and my autocorrect has a mind of its own


----------



## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

TheTherapist said:


> people on this forum are a lot nicer than on other forums


Endless Sphere ?

Caveman V Alien
Canon V Laser Beam
Call it what you want but it was the first ever Electric V Gas bike race
in Australian Motor Racing History yesterday at Wakefield.
Admittedly "Race Your Mates" is the lowest level of racing in the land, its actually combined with a ride day. 
There were 4 races but they were so close together I could only do race 1 and race 3 because did have enough time to recharge.
This organization has a weird race start setup where you go out on a sighting lap from pit lane and grid up, do a race start for a warmup lap and grid up again then a race start for the actual race which was 6 laps total 18km.
My pack is big enough to do the 18km but the charger wasnt big enough to get it all back in there in time for the next race.
I had finished charging from race 1 right by the time race 2 had finished.
Anyway it was too difficult arguing with the stick-in-mud organizers and decided I was having fun anyway and for half the price of an eFXC event.
I started 15th in the first race and finished 13th.
There were 20 odd bikes, half 1000cc and half 600cc and best times were around the 1m4s. I was doing 1m10s as the track was pretty cold.
It wasnt just the tires and amount of grip available it was my hands freezing and not being able to operate the front brake with the speed and dexterity I was used to in warmer weather. 
As you will see in the video my bike gets off the line as fast as a 600cc bike but still doesnt get down the straight as fast. I was keeping with some 600s but it was down to the rider and how many mistakes were made.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O21qfYopnDY

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k1-_I_ehFGo


----------



## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

jonescg said:


> You plan on keeping one of these in the pits? With temperatures in Goulburn lately you might not need it!


The Pit Fan worked a charm, brought motor and pack temps down very quickly. You would be surprised how much heat there was in the pack after a race.
I could run the fan and the charger at the same time then turn the fan off after 5 min and turn the tire warmers on while charging.


----------



## jonescg (Nov 3, 2010)

Endless sphere is like a counsellors waiting room compared to MCNews.com. Man, you know you've made it when you get compliments from there...

Our packs are about 40% copper and aluminium - they shed heat fairly quickly provided there is no boundary layer. A fan will be a good idea post race but I will see if they need any more cooling in operation. 

Well done on the ride/race day anyway mate. That race start warm-up lap is a strange thing. Not sure what they hope to achieve with it; practising holeshoot? We have to have an eFXC or something like it at Wanneroo some year. You'd love it. For a 7 turn circuit it's pretty fun.

Oh, great to hear the electrical supply at Wakefield has been upgraded. Tyre warmers, chargers, fans... I have 4 kW worth of charger. You reckon I can find two circuits?


----------



## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

jonescg said:


> We have to have an eFXC or something like it at Wanneroo some year. You'd love it. For a 7 turn circuit it's pretty fun.
> Oh, great to hear the electrical supply at Wakefield has been upgraded. Tyre warmers, chargers, fans... I have 4 kW worth of charger. You reckon I can find two circuits?


I can see myself driving over there just for the experience. Will bring my bike with me of course.

They actually have a Tesla charging point in one of the pits at Wakefield.

I finally put up one of the trackside videos made by Crazy Al.
The on bike vids are actually the second race but this track side vid is the first race...ever.....
Caveman V Alien.....Flamethrower V Laser  
Watch for inside pass on lefthander at 4m32s

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dMJwxTcFXQ4&feature=c4-overview&list=UUoOd7A2JVRmeuaEfGbO7f_g


----------



## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

Dug up some more video of the first round from the Aus Superbikes site.
try to fast forward to the 50 minute mark. Im nowhere to be seen untill the 4th lap because of the controversial staggered start.

http://new.livestream.com/itvl/events/2016828/videos/18051241


----------



## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

3 laps at SMP this afternoon. Cells 4 and 32 still crashing in spite of having been replaced with new ones.
Synch chain now showing no signs of wear because its a proper chain (RK)
Chassis is handling great.
Very un used to this track as you can see Im all over the shop. Need to practice more.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dj4cvnYeR1U&feature=c4-overview&list=UUoOd7A2JVRmeuaEfGbO7f_g


----------



## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

The synch chain was spraying chain lube....ON THE TIRE......

so I went to great elaborations to create a spray guard from 1mm alloy.
This should make the bike feel a bit safer in right handers.


----------



## ryry (Aug 17, 2012)

Haha yeah I would call that an issue, 
Are you gonna put a form of chain guard over the timing chain?


----------



## CrazyAl (May 9, 2011)

RIPPERTON said:


> Another awesome test session out at SMP.
> 25km this time averaging 101kmh. new top speed of 205kmh.


And I assume that is without upgrading the motor?
Imagine how quick it will go with the motor upgrade? I'm looking forward to seeing this bike race against the Superbikes again.


----------



## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

First crash in 3 years of racing...on a kart track.
Catavolt out of action and Varley didnt show so I was out on the Kart track with a Stealth and a Uni project bike. Hunter Valley EV Festival.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G5FoWsEBca8&feature=c4-overview&list=UUoOd7A2JVRmeuaEfGbO7f_g


----------



## jonescg (Nov 3, 2010)

Haha, yeah Kart tracks aren't really made for streetbikes eh? I was on a Kart track this Sunday too - racing e-max scooters with the mini-motards at Wanneroo Kart track. 

https://plus.google.com/app/basic/p...190208423637042%26sparm%3Dsource%253Dapppromo

Daniel was on the blue scooter and me on the silver. We started about 6 m apart and finished about 6 m apart for one race, so he decided to put some more air in his tyres - made all the difference. He started behind me and I finished 8 seconds behind him. I'll blame the tyres, not the fact that he does a 60 second lap of Barbs on an R6 

So no footage of the crash? Lowsided on a left-hander then?


----------



## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

jonescg said:


> So no footage of the crash? Lowsided on a left-hander then?


Yep the rear got loose in bumps and washed..lowside.
lucky it stayed on the track, there would have been lots more damage if it had hit the grass and flipped


----------



## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

And then there were 2
The R1 pack now supplies both 175v and 12v. The plug pack is on the battery to power the LiPo cooling fans and the Batrium BMS. so there is no interruption to the BMS while swapping the pack, also the cooling fans can remain running because at the end of a run is when the cells are the hottest and need cooling air.


----------



## midaztouch (Mar 28, 2011)

RIP,

Those packs look great! What is the weight for one? No need for a gym membership. Just put a bar between them and you can do squats and bench!

Keep it Clean and Green!
Richie


----------



## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

midaztouch said:


> RIP,
> 
> Those packs look great! What is the weight for one? No need for a gym membership. Just put a bar between them and you can do squats and bench!
> 
> ...


53kg each
Only problem now is the precharge relay loses its power source when the pack
Is extracted and activates the discharge funtion so by the time the fresh battery pack is being inserted ...BANG
The bike still needs its own 12v power source ie small battery


----------



## jonescg (Nov 3, 2010)

Can't you just incorporate a new precharge system into the second pack?

Looks like you will have no trouble keeping up with each practice session now eh?


----------



## midaztouch (Mar 28, 2011)

How fast does it take to swap them out? I took a quick read about precharge. I always thought it was about voltage. Learned something new today... So what blows? Contactors, the high Surge of amps blows the capacitors or fuse . What are some possible options/solutions to resolve this problem? 

Keep it Clean and Green
Richie


----------



## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

Looking at about 8 to 12 seconds for a pack swap.
Nothing actually blows there's just a big bang az the inrush current goes across the quick release blades but the spark creates carbon granules the can score the blade surface.

So todays racing was interesting. Had to cut it down to 4 laps cause Varleys battery wasn't up to 6 laps.
My new pack can do ok 6 laps with the bms light coming on.
But as we left the start line the Varley bike simply cut out exiting turn 2.
My bike went like a Rolls for 4 laps. Another 25 points thankyou.

Went to replace the RK synch chain but found it wasn't really worn.
A real testament to Japanese steel and engineering quality.
So now I have mathematically won the championship as long as I 
come second in every race


----------



## jonescg (Nov 3, 2010)

How were your lap times on last year Dan?

Bit sad the Varley bike just stopped working. Are they on track for tomorrow's racing?


----------



## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

jonescg said:


> How were your lap times on last year Dan?
> 
> Bit sad the Varley bike just stopped working. Are they on track for tomorrow's racing?


My best in Sundays race was 1.24.2 so that went down as new lap record.
8 seconds better than last year.
Jason did a 1.22 in qual so didn't count.
I chased him in Sundays race till the last corner and went in underneath
for the checkers . Another 25 points thanks .


----------



## midaztouch (Mar 28, 2011)

RIPPERTON said:


> My best in Sundays race was 1.24.2 so that went down as new lap record.
> 8 seconds better than last year.
> Jason did a 1.22 in qual so didn't count.
> I chased him in Sundays race till the last corner and went in underneath
> for the checkers . Another 25 points thanks .


Congrats,

Varley, being an EV company and having a lot of money, it must really shake the confidence of the investors and pride watching their bike break down and then losing to you... at the finish line!Lol 

Your a bad man! Great job RIP! hahahahaha!

Keep it Clean and Green
Richie


----------



## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

midaztouch said:


> Your a bad man


LOL I know, thanks.

Yeah they were in the same pits as us and you could see it on their faces they were pissed. Jason just hung his head as he came back in the trailer after Saturdays wreck, they went out for a couple of private shakedown laps after fixing the cutout and the thing was absolutely flying but Jason lost the front at about 150kmh going into the first left and it looked like a meteor ploughing into the Earth with a huge dust trail.
They got it fixed by the next day and Jason wasnt hurt.

Heres a video of Sundays dirty deed done dirt cheap.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oRt-XnIlTH4


----------



## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

Heres the whole race on the third screen down at 1hour 11minutes.
On the grid you see me me holding up 4 fingers cause they decided to cut the race down to 3 laps instead of 4 favoring Varley and they also cut out the staggered start at the last second which was good but they could have told us in advance.

http://new.livestream.com/itvl/fxbikes/videos/28207053


----------



## midaztouch (Mar 28, 2011)

RIPPERTON said:


> LOL I know, thanks.
> 
> Yeah they were in the same pits as us and you could see it on their faces they were pissed. Jason just hung his head as he came back in the trailer after Saturdays wreck, they went out for a couple of private shakedown laps after fixing the cutout and the thing was absolutely flying but Jason lost the front at about 150kmh going into the first left and it looked like a meteor ploughing into the Earth with a huge dust trail.
> They got it fixed by the next day and Jason wasnt hurt.
> ...


Does this guy crash his bike everytime!? Did you see Crash Dummy written on his leathers anywhere!? Well, its a good selling point. "4 Stars Crash-rating****!

All jokes a side. I'm glad he wasn't hurt.

Keep it Clean and Green
Richie


----------



## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

midaztouch said:


> Does this guy crash his bike everytime


Its not the rider its the bike. The front tire hits the motor casing under braking.
Jasons a good rider probably a hair better than me.
He used to ride Catavolt but its out of action so he rang Varley and asked if he could ride it instead of Varley CEO Jeff.


----------



## midaztouch (Mar 28, 2011)

RIPPERTON said:


> Its not the rider its the bike. The front tire hits the motor casing under braking.
> Jasons a good rider probably a hair better than me.
> He used to ride Catavolt but its out of action so he rang Varley and asked if he could ride it instead of Varley CEO Jeff.


That's even worst! Thier Engineers did a terrible job and that makes the bike crash! They are all fired!lol


----------



## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

LiPo cooling system modified.
RamAir replaced with 4 80mm fans 60cfm each pulling 1.4A.


----------



## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

So the concept of adding a small 12v battery in parallel to the 12v plugpak works as long as the battery doesnt have higher voltage than the plugpak.
The plugpak has 12.2v standing even with LiPo fans running.
If the 12v battery has more than 12.2v, the system shuts down. I had fans running when I momentarily connected the battery with 12.7v and the fans shut down and restarted when I disconnected.
Also fitted 12v quick release blades in between the 175v blades.


----------



## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

This pesky synch chain idler has come loose one time too many.
Its the drive side one and cops a lot of abuse. It has to handle all the power from the lower motor and transfer it to the upper motor shaft.
So I found a fatter bearing with same OD but smaller ID and 1mm wider, then made a new sprocket and sat the bearings radial center plane, co-planar with the sprockets radial center plane for better load direction. Also made 2 lateral capture plates in 4mm alu.
I kept the M5 screws but doubled the number on the same pcd, went CS with nuts and soaked in locktite.


----------



## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

The YGS short tabs fiasco raises its head again.
Both battery packs are identical builds so should weigh the same but the pack with the short spot welded tabs is 600gr heavier.
The normally aluminium positive tabs have been extended with copper sections.


----------



## midaztouch (Mar 28, 2011)

Hey Rip!

How is the Magura throttle holding up? I've searched around. The Magura seems to be the DIY standard. Do you have better suggestion?

Keep it Clean and Green
Midas


----------



## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

midaztouch said:


> How is the Magura throttle holding up? I've searched around. The Magura seems to be the DIY standard. Do you have better suggestion?


Its good, they are the best quality throttle on the market.
I just wish they would make a left handlebar lever for regen and
a pedal for cars both throttle and regen


----------



## tylerwatts (Feb 9, 2012)

Hey Rip, can't you put a right hand throttle backwards on the left bar for regen? Just a thought.


----------



## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

tylerwatts said:


> Hey Rip, can't you put a right hand throttle backwards on the left bar for regen? Just a thought.


Have done it on a mountain bike, worked ok but on a race bike when you are braking hard a lot of load goes through your wrist. Ideally your wrist should be in a straight line to handle that kind of force but you can still operate a lever while your wrist is under load.


----------



## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

What about a lever/trigger throttle? That's what I used on my 6 wheeler.


----------



## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

JRP3 said:


> What about a lever/trigger throttle? That's what I used on my 6 wheeler.


I say make it - you can fabricate... Easy way: adapt and automotive TPS to an existing thumb lever. Hard core: make a custom lever with a TPS in/on it.

I love my (Honda) TPS. My throttle response is silky smooth.


----------



## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

Be careful not to waste time solving non existent problems.
The standard front brake lever works perfectly even when theres 150kg going into the wrist so no need to redesign


----------



## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

I'm missing something. If this is the case:


RIPPERTON said:


> Be careful not to waste time solving non existent problems.
> The standard front brake lever works perfectly even when theres 150kg going into the wrist so no need to redesign


Why did you wish this?


RIPPERTON said:


> ...I just wish they would make a left handlebar lever for regen and
> a pedal for cars both throttle and regen



That's not sarcasm (on my part), it sounds like you stated a problem, then said it doesn't exist?


----------



## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

toddshotrods said:


> I'm missing something.


get some coffee Todd

I said I wanted a lever
as opposed to a twist grip or a thumb throttle.

I just sent an Email to Magura asking them to expand their product range


----------



## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

RIPPERTON said:


> I said I wanted a lever
> as opposed to a twist grip or a thumb throttle.


Right, which is why I suggested a lever/trigger throttle like I use on my 6 wheeler, and Todd's response was to just make one.


----------



## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

JRP3 said:


> Right, which is why I suggested a lever/trigger throttle like I use on my 6 wheeler, and Todd's response was to just make one.


Oh I though you meant a thumb throttle


----------



## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Nah, I don't like thumb throttles. My jetski had one, and I rotated it 180 degrees on the handle bar and made it into a trigger throttle. Cheap upgrade


----------



## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

JRP3 said:


> Nah, I don't like thumb throttles. My jetski had one, and I rotated it 180 degrees on the handle bar and made it into a trigger throttle. Cheap upgrade


Yep back on page 63


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

Awesome racing today at Sydney Motorsport Park.
Only 3 laps (13km) mainly to keep the Varley bike rolling across the line as they have a capacity problem caused by a crashing cell.
Jason guns it off the line but I get him back around the outside of turn 4 and pull away... a bit. I have my 15t front sprocket on and Im doing 205kmh top so Jason cant really catch me on the huge main straight plus I have the advantage of better cornering speed. Even so Jason comes back at the start of lap 3 showing a wheel into t2 but I chop it off and keep the lead then we both make mistakes , Jason runs wide in t4 and my controllers cut out accelerating out of t5, we both struggle to get back into the rythm but I take it to the checkers for a 3.5s lead.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cNkN2cg04WI

Australian Superbike Champ Kevin Curtain did one of my Friday practice sessions. His first ever lap on my bike was a 1m50 which is my fastest lap.
Then his second lap is a 1m45s !!!!!! 600cc best lap is around 1m34s.
Then on his 3rd lap the 12v power supply unplugged itself and the bike just stopped, he brought the bike back in the trailer.
More racing tmrw


----------



## jonescg (Nov 3, 2010)

Jeesus that Varley bike takes off in a hurry doesn't it?

Dan, after reading posts like these I normally congratulate you and Jason on your efforts, but now I'm just jealous  

Really wishing I had the money to finish Voltron-Evo, but unfortunately I just haven't had enough work to make it happen. I will know more about an offshore job in the coming weeks. One month at sea should see the bike pretty close to done, and another month after that it will be ready.

Till then I just have to be patient and keep working on the little (inexpensive) things.

And well done mate


----------



## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

Jason was taking off too fast I think.
All he had to do was tail me and conserve battery till the finish straight...

Heres Sundays race. click the top screen and go to 13 minutes.

http://www.formula-xtreme.com.au/xt...936d4652859f6356ca257bd0003a68a4?OpenDocument


----------



## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

Turn 1 flybys of Sundays race

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VT1l_3z2g1g&feature=youtu.be


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

Hydraulic pressure transducer goes onto a Kwaka ZX14 clutch master cylinder lever with a bit of 17mm alloy hex bar, to be used for regen modulation and have the feel of a hydraulic disc brake.
I bought 3 pressures, 30, 80 and 150psi and had an oil pressure gauge in the fitting to see what kind of pressues I was getting, up to 200 psi !!.
Problem is they dont work, Im not getting any variable signal out of them.
They are a 3 wire pot and they run on 5v but no luck here.
Any clues ?


----------



## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

Im an idiot  
I just soldered the 3 wires up wrong had the earth and the signal crossed.
Resoldered it and testing it on the stand and it works but of course its night time here now and have to wait till tmrw to test it.
Feels a little on the touchy side so might have to go to a higher pressure,
200 or 250psi.


----------



## tylerwatts (Feb 9, 2012)

That is an engenious solution Rip! Well done sir


----------



## jonescg (Nov 3, 2010)

I assume you're just measuring the 0-5 V as you squeeze the lever? I'm surprised it still feels a bit too soft given there is nowhere for the fluid to go -not like it can expand against a hose wall or anything


----------



## frodus (Apr 12, 2008)

Great job! I was wondering when people would start using these on motorcycles. Seems like a no brainer for single speed bikes. Just use the original clutch master and a pressure transducer to give a variable regen signal!


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

Ok went for my morning ride cold tires and all and it bloody well worked .
The lever feels like a disc brake but with the 150psi unit is a bit sensitive.
Its prone to locking if you arnt scrunched up toward the rear of the seat.
It modulates perfectly and keeps braking right down to almost stopped
but taking off it won't be on line untill you are going faster than 20kmh

If you havnt got any air bled into the system it feels rock hard like metal to metal
and theres no lever travel either which probably wouldnt work or feel real 
so I attach a hose to the bleed nipple and blow air into the cylinder untill I get
a realistic amount of lever travel and it also gives the lever a bit of spongyness.

Going straight to the 200 and 250psi versions.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/200PSI-Pres...Parts_Accessories&vxp=mtr&hash=item2a26937987


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

frodus said:


> Great job! I was wondering when people would start using these on motorcycles.


Thanks but the ZX14 master was $175 ouch
the units are $40 each shipped


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

Australian Superbike Champ Kevin Curtain telling me to readjust my handlebars because he though they were wierd feeling.
I said you ride for me next year and Ill adjust them for ya...


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

16 year old Brad Swallow in his first year of racing. normally on a ZX600 which was stuck in 5th gear in QLD, though Id give him a go on a real single speed bike also went 4 seconds faster than me in only 4 laps.









Heres a shot of the giant motor in the Varley machine


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

Moar Thanks to Tony Castley


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## tylerwatts (Feb 9, 2012)

Yikes, where does Varley fit batteries in that beast? It's a small frame too!


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

tylerwatts said:


> Yikes, where does Varley fit batteries in that beast? It's a small frame too!


Above the motor, it pretty busy in there. It has a primary chain drive on the right and a jack shaft behind the motor to secondary chain on the left.
CBR600 frame


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## tylerwatts (Feb 9, 2012)

Wow ok. Seems a complicated arrangement, but I'm probably preaching to the choir!


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

Improving on an improvement I tapped the transducer directly into the master cylinder for more compact ergo's. Also removed the 3 pin water proof plug, shortened the pins down and soldered wires directly into them and found some very small 2 and 3 pins plugs at JayCar. So now in case of crash damage the whole handlebar can be swapped quickly.


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## jonescg (Nov 3, 2010)

Good move on the crash-readiness. I'm making sure my handlebar switchblocks come with molex or the like. Hey - I have changed my battery now so that I can has quick-swap batteries! Not that I can afford one battery, let alone two... but anyway, it's future proof


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

jonescg said:


> Good move on the crash-readiness. I'm making sure my handlebar switchblocks come with molex or the like. Hey - I have changed my battery now so that I can has quick-swap batteries! Not that I can afford one battery, let alone two... but anyway, it's future proof


Great.
I've found some cieling winches on Ebay that I can build into the gantry and modify for 3 second lift.
65kg is about as much as I can lift but future packs will be heavier.


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

If your Kilovac has a crack around this little vacuum nib, replace the unit.
This will allow air into the contact chamber, the contacts will burn and weld themselves closed so you wont have any precharge effect. Your controllers capacitors will cop a hiding every time you connect the mains battery to the system.
So every time I dropped my quick swap battery pack into the bike...BANG
small explosions at the tips of my aluminium blade contact caused scoring of the blade as particles of carbon, aluminium scraped down the blade.










Also dont like the way the copper anvil is too short, doesnt even come to the center point of the buttons.
Should go right out to the outer tangents of the buttons


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

RIPPERTON said:


> If your Kilovac has a crack around this little vacuum nib, replace the unit.
> This will allow air into the contact chamber, the contacts will burn and weld themselves closed so you wont have any precharge effect.


Hi Rip,

You may have the cause and effect mixed around. I think it is more likely a failure to precharge caused the arc flash and weld and that caused the crack in the vacuum seal. Air doesn't cause the contacts to burn and weld. Many contactors are open frame, like the Albrights. 

major


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## weber (Apr 22, 2009)

Hi Ripperton. Is that an EV200? http://www.cafeelectric.com/downloads/ev200.pdf

Thanks for going to the trouble of cutting it open and sharing the photos. I always wondered what they looked like inside.

I'd like to point out that the plastic knob isn't the vacuum seal. But it does cover the crimped copper tube that is the real vacuum seal, as you can see here.










But if it's had a blow hard enough to crack the plastic, it may well have damaged the copper too, so your point still stands. I broke this one by dropping it, and so can't trust it, which is why it's marked "spare parts only".

I too am very surprised that the contact bar inside is so short. Were there magnets in those two pockets either side of the contact chamber?

Welding of the motor-controller's main contactor can occur if the precharge circuit isn't getting the voltage across the main contactor down low enough before it makes. As the datasheet implies, it needs to get down to 32 volts or less. This may be caused by insufficient precharge delay or by an unexpected load on the motor-controller side of the contactor.

Hi Major,
Atmospheric-pressure contactors can't handle voltages as high as vacuum contactors can. However I note that a vacuum contactor that has leaked but still has a pressure lower than atmospheric, can allow the arc to continue at even _lower_ volts per millimetre than an atmospheric contactor. Or coming at it from the other direction: As you pump the air out, they gradually get a lot worse before they suddenly get a lot better, according to Paschen's Law.


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

weber said:


> I'd like to point out that the plastic knob isn't the vacuum seal. But it does cover the crimped copper tube that is the real vacuum seal, as you can see here.
> <<<snip>>>
> Hi Major,
> Atmospheric-pressure contactors can't handle voltages as high as vacuum contactors can. However I note that a vacuum contactor that has leaked but still has a pressure lower than atmospheric, can allow the arc to continue at even _lower_ volts per millimetre than an atmospheric contactor. Or coming at it from the other direction: As you pump the air out, they gradually get a lot worse before they suddenly get a lot better, according to Paschen's Law.


Makes you wonder if Rip's contactor chamber was actually compromised. And thanks for the insight. For some reason I thought I'd heard that they actually pressurized the chamber with inert gas opposed to pulling a vacuum. These contactors are quite sensitive to precharge. One closure with the improper conditions can weld it shut. A good motor controller will check for the welded condition before initiating a turn-on sequence.


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

major said:


> Hi Rip,
> You may have the cause and effect mixed around. I think it is more likely a failure to precharge caused the arc flash and weld and that caused the crack in the vacuum seal. Air doesn't cause the contacts to burn and weld. Many contactors are open frame, like the Albrights.
> major


The plot thickens
Regarding what I said in my previous post about the plastic nib cracking, it doesnt cause the unit to fail so if yours is cracked, ignore it.

So the welding of these contacts was probably cause by capacitor flash as Major suggested or even overamping during use. I am running up to 400A through these over 20 second periods.

Yes Weber the magnets were in there and interesting point about the maximum voltage across the contacts when engaging (32v)
With all the testing I do I sometimes dont allow the precharge voltage to climb high enough before engaging the contactor so a little more patience when booting the beast might be needed.


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

Anyway theres plenty of them in Israel.

http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/200949427292?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1438.l2649


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## Doctorbass (Dec 12, 2008)

I know well these contactor and i have couples of these in various EV projects.

I think there is a reason why the short copper bar is not covering all the terminal stud and are just covering it half the surface. My guess is that it's for the arc blow out. The magnetic field generated by the high current is probably shaped by these half moon open area on the studs wich could help to blow out the arc.

These are rated 900VDC and are presurized with inert gas as well. 

There is a great way to TEST THEM to know if they are damaged by arcing. Just measure the voltage across their two termninal with a voltmeter set to the mV scale and plug their terminal to a lab power supply or any regulated current and voltage source. Set to 1V or less and with couples of amp and measure the mV reading. divide the mV by the supply current and you will get the resistance of the contact.

To know if it was damaged just repeat this test few times and see if the resistance vary too much. If so, this mean the contact are not regular, meaning that the surface is not regular too = damaged.

Out of 5 used EV200 i bought on ebay last year there was only 1 good !!

Doc


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

Doctorbass said:


> I know well these contactor and i have couples of these in various EV projects.
> I think there is a reason why the short copper bar is not covering all the terminal stud and are just covering it half the surface. My guess is that it's for the arc blow out. The magnetic field generated by the high current is probably shaped by these half moon open area on the studs wich could help to blow out the arc.
> These are rated 900VDC and are presurized with inert gas as well.
> Doc


Hi Doc
good to have you here at DIY
Yes I though there would be a reason for the seemingly stupid design but what the heck, they work.

I think Ive won the eFXC championship twice this year.
I though I had it sewn up in October after winning on points but then the organizer added another race before the 9am noise curfew and that threw the whole championship open again.
It was also a sneaky way of getting another $1400 out of us and make sure we come back for the final round. There was no way we would have spent any money or effort to do 1 race when the result was already known.
Like Marquez all I had to do was finish one race in 1st or 2nd and the title was mine again.
Before the event Varley bit the bullet and fixed their battery by replacing a dodgy LiPo cell which was forcing them to run on greatly reduced power.
But then on Friday they found another cell went down and they were up untill 2.30 am on Saturday morning dismantling the entire pack. Cudos to Nick Tyson for his "never give up" attitude and Il think twice next time about helping them as I supplied them with some 6mm crimping lugs for the LiPo pack cables .
So Jason won both races but I got the 2013 eFXC title... again.

Heres the live feed and our race on a damp track.
Go to the second screen down and fast forward to 13 minutes.
Watch Jasons front tire slide going into turn 2 on lap 1 and he saves it.
http://new.livestream.com/itvl/events/2500918


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## jonescg (Nov 3, 2010)

Nice work guys.

I see that Varley are building a custom frame too - It's the only way to go if you want to limit the compromise.

I hope to see you (and your rider) on track in 2014 Dan!


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## midaztouch (Mar 28, 2011)

Rip,

The announcer said your bike hit 211kmh. Was that the electrics top speed for the day on the track?

Keep it Clean and Green
Midaz


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## Frank (Dec 6, 2008)

Congratulations on the title win!


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

jonescg said:


> Nice work guys.
> I see that Varley are building a custom frame too - It's the only way to go if you want to limit the compromise.
> I hope to see you (and your rider) on track in 2014 Dan!


Hope you get your bike running too Chris and good news for next year...
There are now 2 races per day as we have our first race before the 9am noise curfew so improved value for money there.
And the first race isnt until June in QLD so you will have more time to get ready.

Custom frame is a big ask if you want to retain all the original handling characteristics, steering head design is tricky stuff. Im going to just do a new swingarm first of all.

Midaz, my top speed was about 208kmh and Varley was about the same.


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

Totally forgot about the regen thing.
I received the 200 and 300 psi transducers on Thursday and wired them up ready to install.
In Fridays test sessions I first tested the 150psi transducer and it felt perfect. I could feel the rear wheel locking when I pulled hard on the lever and it was perfectly usable for scrubbing off speed going up to the apex on a big angle. The amount of braking I got was spot on for the amount of tension my fingers were putting into the lever. I could use 1 finger for scrubbing speed in corners.
lock that one in


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## jonescg (Nov 3, 2010)

RIPPERTON said:


> Hope you get your bike running too Chris and good news for next year...
> There are now 2 races per day as we have our first race before the 9am noise curfew so improved value for money there.
> And the first race isnt until June in QLD so you will have more time to get ready.
> 
> ...


That's great news! I will definitely have my bike ready by then. I'll even put money on it  2 races per day is quite manageable, even if I only have one battery pack. More concerning is having enough battery to do all 5 practice sessions on the Friday. At Winton I could do a 6 kW charge and make all of the sessions, but a 9 kWh battery would leave me short each time since I can only charge at 4 kW. Still, that's great news and I will definitely be there, even if it's not me riding.

Custom frame is not a small undertaking, but if built by skilled hands they should offer all that a Jap bike has with the added benefit of fitting everything in. 

I see they still seem to get something wrong at each race - Formula Oz rolling out when you were gridding up


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

jonescg said:


> I see they still seem to get something wrong at each race - Formula Oz rolling out when you were gridding up


Kevin Curtain was behind me on his R1 at pit exit waiting to go out on track.
I turned round and said "come on Il race ya mate".

I will go to the first round in March at Wakefield and make an announcement that we will need 2 riders.

Heres my add
http://www.formula-xtreme.com.au/xt...04bbb611815c63f0ca257c2600067b30?OpenDocument


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

(Chris Jones prepare for jealousy attack)










Season roundup, fast and steady wins the championship.
The Ripperton bike was probably 6 seconds a lap faster than the Varley bike at SMP but Ripperton was probably 6 seconds a lap slower than Jason Morris.
Next year will hot up significantly with more bikes on track and those bikes will be faster and ridden by better riders.


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## jonescg (Nov 3, 2010)

RIPPERTON said:


> (Chris Jones prepare for jealousy attack)


Not jealous of the silverware mate, just jealous of the track time 

Indeed next year will be the big one. It takes 2-3 years to design and build a bike when you have half an income. But once it's rolling you can't stop it


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## weber (Apr 22, 2009)

Doctorbass said:


> I think there is a reason why the short copper bar is not covering all the terminal stud and are just covering it half the surface. My guess is that it's for the arc blow out. The magnetic field generated by the high current is probably shaped by these half moon open area on the studs wich could help to blow out the arc.
> 
> These are rated 900VDC and are presurized with inert gas as well.


Hi Doc. I agree the bar not covering the stud may have something to do with arc blowout. I'm guessing the arcs are blown outward so they are running between the end of the bar and the unused part of the terminal, and thereby not damaging the contact areas.

We have to ensure we have the correct direction of current flow or the magnets will blow the arc the wrong way, which is more likely to damage the contact areas. The terminal markings relate to the _source_ of electrical power, so if it's switching the positive lead it will have + toward the battery and - toward the controller. If it's switching the negative lead it will have - toward the battery and + toward the controller. If it's switching somewhere within the pack then it's + to + and - to -. Opening under regenerative braking is bad, but not as bad as opening under drive current while connected the wrong way 'round.

Yes. Some sealed contactors use sulfur hexaflouride under pressure and some use vacuum. Among all inert gasses, SF6 is the best insulator purely because of the mass of its molecule -- about 5 times that of N2 or O2 (air). The manufacturer of the EV200 makes both types and I couldn't find anything that told me which type the EV200 is. But I found something that said you need to use "hard" contacts with SF6, not bare copper, because the SF6 does not remain inert when exposed to the arc. So it seems likely that EV200s are vacuum contactors.


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

Sideburns on fire going through turn 1 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QSjVjoofhe8&feature=c4-overview&list=UUVUtcve-xi2RCL9_t--mjJQ


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

2014 eFXC racing season coming up soon and good news is I have secured the services of a professional rider so I can relax and take care of the bike.
Wont say who it is just yet but he is 60kg and will take about 6 to 8 seconds off any of my lap times so the competition will have their work cut out for them. Varley could go 2 seconds faster than me at Queensland last year when they turned their power up but only for 2 laps so if they have rebuilt their battery pack they will be in the hunt.
Ive been getting the bike ready, adding a few things here and adjusting a few things there. Put a new Ohlins steering damper on but had to make a new fairing stay bracket to anchor it to. Racers like the steering real stiff to keep the bike stable under brakes and corner exits.
This guy is a lot smaller than me so had to swing the handle bars back and bring the levers up a bit. Took ages to get the angle of the bars right so they are symmetric.
Am working on a mechanical Hall sensor advance unit, have made a smaller rear sprocket but might not need it as I could up the power by 2% and get more top speed from the advance unit.
And last but not least...the number one plate.


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## Tomaj (Oct 3, 2011)

May I ask how did you solve slow start of Kelly controllers.
I have KHB12601 controller and ME913 motor. At speeds below 40km/h max output current is only 70A. After that speed, current starts to increase slowly. Actually as faster you go, higher is the current. I tried both, torque and balance mode but there is no much difference.
Acceleration is very poor and I can barely start rolling on a step road.


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

Tomaj said:


> May I ask how did you solve slow start of Kelly controllers.
> I have KHB12601 controller and ME913 motor. At speeds below 40km/h max output current is only 70A. After that speed, current starts to increase slowly. Actually as faster you go, higher is the current. I tried both, torque and balance mode but there is no much difference.
> Acceleration is very poor and I can barely start rolling on a step road.


this is the Kelly ramping down current at low speed.
I dont think it can be changed.
You just have to reduce the load , 2 speed maybe


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## Tomaj (Oct 3, 2011)

I used it in a sport motorcycle with gear ratio 5:1,some kind of gearbox or just 2 stage reduction is not an option.

I will try with Sevcon Gen4 controller.

Thanks anyway.


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

I discovered to my shock that I was powering both my Kilovacs off a single wire running to the back of the bike to the red light strobe on the tail.
Whats more it was branched off using a quick clamp splicing thing that shears the insulation off as you squash it with pliers.
Its been like that for 2 years !!
After investigating, I found there was quite a lot of voltage drop at the Kilovacs (11.6v) and they don't actually engage at 11v so I installed a 12v-19v DCDC. The power supply is only 12.2v
There is 0.2v drop across the thumb on/off switch on the handle bars.
So now the R1 has 4 different voltages...
12v for BMS, dash, horn and cooling system.
19v Kilovacs
24v for Kellys
175v for motors


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

Sundays eFXC race from October last year at Sydney Motorsport Park

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h6itKYatMeA&list=UUoOd7A2JVRmeuaEfGbO7f_g


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

Tomaj said:


> May I ask how did you solve slow start of Kelly controllers.


I just asked Fany if he could reassign the boost function so it bypasses the ramp-down map and just gives full current at low speed at the risk of overheating the motor.


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## Tomaj (Oct 3, 2011)

Great, please let me know about her answer.


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

Fany is a he.
He says they have a new software that has a basic form of throttle 
map, looks like this.


But the hardware is also new so we cant upgrade our old ctlr.


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## Tomaj (Oct 3, 2011)

Actually I have this option on one of my controller. But I am not sure what those parameters do.


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

leonida said:


> Do you have info what software is this?


Its Kelly GUI
graphic user interface
used for configuring the controller.


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

So I installed Windows 8.1 on my bike. 
Solid State 64bit micro PC 1.8Gig processor 32Gig chips and some RAM. Dual overhead WiFi antennas
130x130x35mm 660gr. $300 plus os $130.
This will run Batrium BMS Data logging and act as WiFi transmitter live feed to track side phones with VNC Viewer App so we can see Battery Cell state while the bike is flying down the main straight full throttle.
Only 200m WiFi range but should get a few refreshes when the bike comes past the pits.


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## frodus (Apr 12, 2008)

Sweet! 

Look into some zigbee long range.... Like the 900HP if wifi doesn't work well. It's serial... But with the right antennas you can get like 20 miles range. We're using them on a race car.


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

Oh Shit, Ive got motors blowing up all around me down here.
The R1 motor was making a strange squeeking noise as it turned so I pulled it down and found one of the frames on the upper rotor had broken a lip that holds the magnet in place laterally. You can see the scuff marks on the magnet where its been rubbing on the stator.
The lower rotor also has alignment issues and is scuffing the magnets.

Took the bike out to SMP last Friday and it went great. Did 213kmh with the new smaller rear sprocket and also handles even better with the new steering damper.


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

Also found one of the 4 stators was shorted to the core so also had a chance to look at the electroless Nickel plating in the water cooling system and it has shown some lifting of the Nickel and corrosion of the aluminium underneath. 
But where the Nickel hasn't lifted, its completely impervious to tap water.
So my bike does 213kmh with a shorted stator, busted rotor frame and a fat dinosaur weighing it down. 
Should be an interesting season.


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

don't know why I made this gasket in alu then Nickel plated it, was very expensive and thermal conductivity of Nickel is an atrocious 91 WmK, alu is 237WmK. Actually found pin holes in them.
So I just remade it in copper. Got a small sheet of exactly the same thickness for $30 and Copper has a 401WmK thermal conductivity, is malleable and doesn't need plating.
This shot also shows the stator gap being measured with a caliper.


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

Well heres my main competition.
Chris Jones standing next to his 705v 15Ah LiPo pack.
168s 3p of 5Ah cells.
This pack has no air cooling so Im a bit concerned about the heat buildup.
Chris rationalizes that the overall current draw is very low so it wont have a heat problem. Lets hope his calcs are right.


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

I took my bike to Wakefield yesterday and did 4 hard sessions.
I should be a military contractor because this thing is a weapon.
I was dicing with this guy on a liter bike and I could chop him up in corners but he would come back on the straight.
The new stiffer steering damper makes the bike much more stable going into and through corners and more comfortable at bigger angles.
The regen now is used all the time on every corner and on some corners its used by itself without the front brake.
This leaves the bike settled and avoids having to recuperate from a frontal weight shift caused by front brake.
The motor sound now is a moany whine constantly pitching up and down going from power accel to regen decel.
Battery pack No1 has a dodgy cell and its 12v supply was cutting out but No2 was performing well. It did 24km in the first session but still needs a bit of balancing.
Cant wait for season start.


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

A successful cell block extraction. Never did this before but though Id try it as I designed the pack with this in mind for easy replacement of defective cells.


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## Frank (Dec 6, 2008)

I'm looking forward to watching you guys this year.


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

Found another live feed video from a year ago at Wakefield.
This was when they tried to run a staggered start and no one could figure out why I was so far back until lap 4.
Go to the second video screen down and fast forward to 51 minutes

http://new.livestream.com/accounts/1658248/events/2016828


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

Voltron lives...on stage

http://vimeo.com/97292534


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

Voltron live on track
Voltron is 83kg heavier than Ripperton combined bike rider weight. 313kg v 230kg

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I0AclCx9_w0&feature=youtu.be


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## jonescg (Nov 3, 2010)

Yeah she's a big girl - much heavier than I expected it to be. I was aiming for 215 kg, but expected it to be a bit heavier. I'd say my scales were off by a fair bit when I was measuring each part. Plus I also forgot to add things like chain, sprockets, coolant loop, brake discs, auxiliary battery, copper wire, tank cover etc etc. Still, 238 kg is not too bad. Pottz is already lapping faster than me and my Blackbird (which is about 240 kg) and he's only got 2/3rds the top speed due to gearing (yeah he can ride a bit). We're going to wind up with a 2:1 reduction I reckon. Swingarm is going to be a weak point I suspect. The torque of this Evo motor is insane. Wheelstands stop when base speed is reached - in about 3 seconds. 

Still need to sort out this field weakening thing - it's not working...

We had some cooling issues too, but that seems to have been corrected with an additional radiator up the front.


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

Looks like its going to be a real goer...in a straight line that is
I rmbr doing a ride day on my 150hp CBR1000 and being passed by a kid on a 125cc GP bike in the corners. I was sure I would get him on the straight. I just did but he got past me in the corners even sooner and then I didn't get him on the straight. Lapping quicker than me with a quarter of the horsepower.
Light is right !!


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## jonescg (Nov 3, 2010)

Danny was saying it's actually as fast through the turns as his 600 (we have some GPS data to compare) and it's actually faster through turn 7. We're losing out on top speed, and flip-flop through the esses is a bit slower. The front suspension still needs work - still all stock Gixxer stuff. When the front end is sorted this machine will be quite competitive.


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## jonescg (Nov 3, 2010)

http://efxc.com.au/xtremema.nsf/ae0...244aeef6b4735c80ca257cf90009cd0f?opendocument

Only two of us? Hopefully Jon and Varley get their entries in soon...


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

jonescg said:


> Only two of us? Hopefully Jon and Varley get their entries in soon...


Yeah not promising,
I was at Jons on Monday and he was putting old Catavolt back together with the hub motors and new A123 pack and a tritium controller for a bit more voltage.


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## Pottz (Jun 20, 2014)

RIPPERTON, just thought I'd say Hi.
I'll be riding the Voltron machine this year and hope to have some great racing with you guys.

Reading a few pages of the thread has been interesting, you sure have been working hard and seem to have this bike well sorted. It should be interesting to be racing two bikes with such different strengths and weaknesses. It will be a very challenging weekend for us with me not knowing the track and only ridden the bike one day on a race track. Fingers crossed for no breakdowns at least.

Hopefully we get a few more entries though, it's not much of a series with only two bikes lapping around.

EDIT: I just saw the updated entry list, 2 Varley bikes and catavolt have been added. That looks a bit better.

Best of luck for the season, I look forward to meeting you and having a blast racing at QLD in a week.

Pottz (Danny).


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

Hi Danny
Im still not sure who will be riding my bike.
Mitch Levy tested the bike last weekend at QLD but it didn't seem to go for him. It kept cutting out and running on one motor and he never got a decent lap in.
I looked over the bike and couldn't find anything so had a go on it myself and it went fine. Seems like it has gremlins or a serious attitude.
I pulled the bike apart after bringing it home and found a few things so will get him to test it again on Friday.
Its great to see more bikes in the series, see you in QLD.


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

Great weekends racing up in QLD.
I ended up riding the bike myself and keeping the overall eFXC lap record from last year in spite of the freakish VOLTRON and its 190hp ridden by Danny Pottage from WA.
Voltrons characteristics were exactly as predicted, ie chain snapping torque and power, awesome straight line speed but a bit of a hippo in corners.
Saturday afternoons racing was some of the best Ive enjoyed in my life but unfortunately wasn't recorded on video.
Pottz still hadn't learnt the track and I was able to attack at every corner after he came hurtling past me on every straight. The lead changed 5 times a lap but I ended up edging a bit of a lead going into the last lap as he didn't get past me before turn 1 and I looked like keeping the advantage to the end but then I promptly muffed it up by running wide in turn 1 right off the track into the dirt as he crept past. 
I managed to keep it upright but had to basically start from scratch catching up to Pottz and with only half a lap to go my only chance for a win disappeared.
Heres Sunday afternoons race, first screen 52 minutes in.
http://www.fxsuperbikes.com.au/?page_id=588


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

Some pics









http://s37.photobucket.com/user/ripperton_2008/media/Electric R1/2014QLD2_zps4505c62b.jpg.html


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

Voltron Dyno Run 186hp

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i2ZdL7mD7x8&feature=youtu.be


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## SplinterOz (Apr 13, 2011)

Racing photos are up now. I will get the pit and behind the scenes shots up tonight hopefully.


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

SplinterOz said:


> Racing photos are up now. I will get the pit and behind the scenes shots up tonight hopefully.


These are awesome pics Tony Thanks. !!!!!!!!!!


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## SplinterOz (Apr 13, 2011)

Note more photos uploaded... pits shots and behind the scenes goodness. https://www.flickr.com/photos/splinter/sets/72157645434972333/


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## Pottz (Jun 20, 2014)

That sure was some great racing on Saturday!! 
Will they give us the onboard videos? I'd really like to get a copy, it will look great!

Bloody good racing Dan, you were riding the wheels off that thing! That's what we need to keep this series growing. Hopefully we have more of the same in the next few rounds. I was really impressed with your motocross skills also. Really looking forward to catching up and racing again in the next round.


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

Pottz said:


> That sure was some great racing on Saturday!!
> Will they give us the onboard videos? I'd really like to get a copy, it will look great!
> Bloody good racing Dan, you were riding the wheels off that thing! That's what we need to keep this series growing. Hopefully we have more of the same in the next few rounds. I was really impressed with your motocross skills also. Really looking forward to catching up and racing again in the next round.


Andy Marsh has done a quick cut and shut video from the 4 on board cameras that were on our bikes on Saturday arvo and hes bringing a copy around tonight. 
You would have had a great view of that off track run, I was worried about rough ground taking my wheels out but got lucky.


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

Ripperton Front Camera
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VPqn2M3d4sc

Ripperton Rear Camera
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y6Cbg1ALnho

Voltron Front Camera.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8oXKrT1Zt3A


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## Pottz (Jun 20, 2014)

That's fantastic, great riding..... Well on your side anyway, I had no bloody idea where I was on track. I was kicking myself for making the same mistake 3 times in T4, it really looks like a fast corner as you approach it and it was sucking me into braking too late, you can see on the first lap I came so close to tucking the front.

Good stuff.


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

Trackside video of Voltron and Ripperton.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XqNsDjXEr9Y


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

The first Precharge / Discharge relay was rated for 12v I think and it lasted a year but in the end freaked out and took a few other things with it like the resistors and at least 2 Kilovac EV200's.
So we found these 4 pole NC 2 way jobs where we wired the 4 30v contacts in series to handle the battery voltage and because they are see through we can keep an eye on them and just plug a new one into the flat pin base if the contacts start to look dodgy.


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

This was the fuse for the rear controller after I took it apart. It was running on only half its leaves and could have blown at any time.



I took the rear controller off and noticed it was making a rattling sound so took the end plate off and one of the capacitors fell out onto the ground and there was a lot of soot around in there. 
Im just going to keep running it as there are about 50 caps in there and it wont miss one. It still precharges and discharges ok.


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

With this new 47 tooth rear sprocket my bike now officially does power wheelies on flat ground but will only have a top speed of 180 kmh.
wont be needing much more than that at Winton.
Pictured here with the 44t and 41t sprockets.


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## jonescg (Nov 3, 2010)

Love the rattley controllers  If it still runs without those caps you didn't need them...

The precharge discharge thing is a pain, but it can be made to work with the resistors in the right spots. That multi pole relay should switch your pack voltage OK. Otherwise the Gigavac high voltage relays are about $300 delivered.

New sprocket looks the tits. Winton is tighter, but not nearly as tight as Wakefield.

I'm working on a 3 phase plug and breakout board, cause the pits at Winton have 415 V 32 A sockets everywhere. No charge problems this time around


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

After Chris made his 3 phase to single phase power supply I monkey'd his effort and made my own.


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## bradleyk (Apr 3, 2013)

RIPPERTON said:


> After Chris made his 3 phase to single phase power supply I monkey'd his effort and made my own.


My bad. Converts 3 phase outlet to 3 usable single phase.

Nice. Those are useful had one where I worked. The 3 15a were nice.


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

Down here at Winton and its been wild and wooly weather all day.
It was overcast, freezing but dry all morning as we got 2 practice sessions in and then it rained on and of in the afternoon so I sat out qualifying as there are only 4 bikes on the grid and I am 4 seconds a lap faster than Voltron in spite of my 182kmh top speed.

I ran my older no. 1 pack in practice and I think it may have bloated a few cells in the second session so had to decommission it for the weekend.
It powered well and all its voltages were spot on, only 0.05v variation across the pack.

Weather looks better for tomorrow.
The bike is performing very well with the new bigger rear sprocket and handling the extremely tight back turn section with prowess.


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

2 wins virtually handed to me by Voltron.
race 1 we were lead swapping around the track and I noticed Voltron was very squirrely under brakes which turned out to be regen turned up too high.
Going into turn 1 on lap 4, Pottz went straight ahead into the swampy infield after braking a little too late and I raced ahead in disbelief because on the previous straight my bike cut out twice in 20m and I was too far back to attack on the last lap.

race 2 I was on pole after race 1 win and was in a good position to attack Pottz in turn 1 or 2.
I stuffed my bike under Voltron on t2 and Pottz got back past me by t3 but I got back past him by t4. Then it all turned to shit for Voltron as they had a Rinehart shutdown and take ages to reboot. I was long gone by then.

2 more races tmrw....


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

Race 3 Sunday, the red light goes out, I crack the throttle and nothing happens, Both controllers shut down and Im left crawling around the track on one motor constantly trying to reboot the other ctlr. Only completing 3 out of 4 laps I still get 3rd as Varley have another dnf.
I pull into the pits and do a quick controllerectomy and cable both motors to the one remaining controller which was then turned from 90% up to 100%. Ran ok but greatly reduced power and very disappointed I couldn't go do battle with Voltron. We were very evenly matched on this track. I set new lap record of 1m42.4 which stood from 2011 Chris Jones Voltron 1 1m58s.

Now 14 points in arrears Im still in the running for the title so I will be replacing both controllers with a pair of new 400A Kellys. and looking foreward to kicking Voltron butt at Wakefield.
Photos shortly


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

Heres Saturday afternoons race on lap one I stuff it up Voltron in turn 2.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pLN8eP-qGM4


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## weber (Apr 22, 2009)

Thanks for the updates Danny. Shame about all the controller shutdowns.


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iE1LhhsSqRI

watch Voltrons scary brakes, tip toe cornering and blinding warp speed as The Ripperton chops his nose off in the tight stuff.


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

OK just had a brainstorm.
I think Ive figured out a way of minimizing overamp cutouts but need some feedback from AC motor people here.
My theory is that when I get an overamp cutout, its just one controller that senses an overload and cuts out then immediately the other controller goes into overload because its the only one working and cuts out too.
Ive got 2 controllers, 2 motors as you know, There is one Hall sensor timing both controllers and the phase cables go to the motors individually ie they are not bridged but what I want to do is connect or bridge each of the 2 relevant phases coming out of the 2 controllers.
ie the 2 "U" lugs of each controller would be connected together then run off down to both motors. and likewise for phases "V" & "W".
What we get then is a load balancing.
This will not eliminate cutouts so the problem is if the weak ctlr cuts out the other ctlr will then "pump power into it" and blow it up ??.


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## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

Per your request I am commenting on this post.



RIPPERTON said:


> ...Ive got 2 controllers, 2 motors as you know, There is one Hall sensor timing both controllers and the phase cables go to the motors individually ie they are not bridged but what I want to do is connect or bridge each of the 2 relevant phases coming out of the 2 controllers.
> ie the 2 "U" lugs of each controller would be connected together then run off down to both motors. and likewise for phases "V" & "W".
> What we get then is a load balancing.
> This will not eliminate cutouts so the problem is if the weak ctlr cuts out the other ctlr will then "pump power into it" and blow it up ??.


All modern PWM motor controllers - whether for AC or DC motors - rely on the inductance of the load (ie - the motor or each phase winding) to integrate a chopped voltage into a continuous current. This means you absolutely cannot connect two or more controller outputs in parallel, because any time one controller is on while the other is off the on controller will have to supply the full load current. You can "integrate away" timing differences between controllers by inserting inductance in series with each output, but the size/cost of these inductors rapidly becomes untenable if you need to accommodate more than a few dozen volt*microseconds of mismatch.

tld;dr version: don't connect motor controllers in parallel.


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

I think I get this. the output isn't one steady flow of current, its more rapid on-off-on-off and if one of those on's from one ctlr crashes into an off from the other ctlr....BOOM.
And theres no way of synchronizing those on-off's


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## jonescg (Nov 3, 2010)

So you were doing ~1:47s on one motor and one controller - that's pretty good going!  I was wondering whether or not you had attempted to parallel the phase wires, but after reading the above I'm pleased you didn't try it and DNS.

We only realised after the last race that we could have wound the torque ramp rate back up to 35 Nm/s for getting out of corners quicker. Probably wouldn't have gained more than a few tenths, but still.


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

Thanks, would have been better with 2 ctlrs and all 3 of us battling for the same piece of ground.
So what have you learnt about race bike design Chris ??
Im seeing Pottz is having a hard time out there.
Im going to have to put the Mira ctlr on the R1 just to finish the season.
Don't think Im going to get funding for new ctlrs.


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## jonescg (Nov 3, 2010)

RIPPERTON said:


> So what have you learnt about race bike design Chris ??
> Im seeing Pottz is having a hard time out there.


What have I learnt? 
1. A reliable bike is a winning bike. 
2. A single AC motor and single VFD controller is a winning combination. 
3. By building the frame around the power plant, you can get a bike that has it all, with no compromises.
4. High voltage modular battery packs for the WIN
5. Weight loss programs can only begin after the system has been proven to be functional and reliable.

We are carrying almost twice the battery we need to compete in the series, and this weight is penalising us under brakes. But at least we know we can enter any club 1000 race in Australia and complete all 10-15 laps. Voltron Evo is future-proof; we can just install a smaller battery and shed 10% of our weight for roughly the same kind of power. 

Pottz hasn't had the saddle time to really get into the swing of things. As we've shown so far, we can still make it go faster


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## JustinNguyen (Aug 9, 2014)

Rip,

I have been reading your post in the past 7 days and total about 18 hours. Front to back almost 3 time although i skip here and there. I am in the process of working on my own Brushless Motor controller especially for the Mar ME0913 and stumble on your forum. I can learn alot from your feedback. You are reminding me of Leonardo da Vinci.

Well, here is my question:
1. How many km have you record with your ev Bike?
2. How much money you save from the petro ? 


thanks


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

Ive got a 3.7Ah YGS cell here that would make a good 168s2p 5kWh pack.
96gr 50C 136mmx45mmx7.3mm
double ended. 32kg of cells plus 10kg for the box.

Voltron might be future proof but its not now proof.
Don't forget in a 1000cc club race, even though you had the range you would still get you ass handed to you at 5 seconds a lap slower.

Building your own frame does have compromises ie. getting the right amount of frame flex. I think Voltron is too stiff around the steering head and not giving the rider enough feel. Kind of Casey Stoner / Carbon Fiber Ducati thing.

Hi Justin glad you enjoy the thread.
The bike now has 3800km of racing and testing. Not a single battery fire thanks to Batrium.
Were not interested in saving money or trying to be efficient, only winning races matters. We use about 70c - $1 of someone else's electricity in a race.


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## jonescg (Nov 3, 2010)

RIPPERTON said:


> Building your own frame does have compromises ie. getting the right amount of frame flex. I think Voltron is too stiff around the steering head and not giving the rider enough feel. Kind of Casey Stoner / Carbon Fiber Ducati thing.


Based on your x-ray eyes and sophisticated Finite Element Analysis 
Your bike is moving quickly after 3+ years of refinement. We have had two rounds of racing to make our changes. I think we're doing pretty well.

Otherwise, we'll just have to count the points at the end of the season then


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

jonescg said:


> Based on your x-ray eyes and sophisticated Finite Element Analysis
> Your bike is moving quickly after 3+ years of refinement. We have had two rounds of racing to make our changes. I think we're doing pretty well.
> Otherwise, we'll just have to count the points at the end of the season then


You can count your points now, due to financial catastrophes, Im out of the season. Im going to try to get someone else to ride the last 2 rounds and pay for entry fees just to try to give you guys a hard time but you won it, congrats !!

btw Mechanical Designers don't use XRay or FEA. We use feel, intuition, experience and instinct. Not things you can learn in Uni.
I can see by the way Pottz tip toes around corners that it has no feel.


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## Karter2 (Nov 17, 2011)

RIPPERTON said:


> You can count your points now, due to financial catastrophes, Im out of the season. Im going to try to get someone else to ride the last 2 rounds and pay for entry fees just to try to give you guys a hard time but you won it, congrats !!
> 
> btw Mechanical Designers don't use XRay or FEA. We use feel, intuition, experience and instinct. Not things you can learn in Uni..


 Woooahh buddy. 1 ..easy on those real engineers.
I know quite a few "Mechanical Designers" ..real trade guys who make their living by designing real things for everyday use..machines, structures, even beer cans,...not spacecraft.
some of them are near retirement age now, but i know they have been using FEA , spectrography etc for at least 35 years..as far back as punch tape computer programming

PS.. sorry to hear abut your situation and not being able to race again this year .. Here's hoping things change for the better ..real soon


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## Ausemoto (Jun 6, 2014)

Hey Ripperton, have you ever heard of a mod for Kelly controllers where you limit the voltage received by the logic controllers coming from the main battery terminal of the controller?

The following thread has a basic blurb about it http://www.endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=28&t=62040 Still trying to figure out if its worth it. Atm i am running 20S lipo on a 72V nominal controller so no where near as fine a line as the guy in the thread runs but just adding one component he seems to have removed the very restrictive safety feature.


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

Making a "controller tunnel" at the expense of some comfort.
Finally replacing the 16 year old Yamaha seat with a sheet aluminium frame with 10mm rubber cover.
In the tunnel goes 2 new KHB14601's recased together with water cooling. pics later


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

2 new Kelly KHB14601 have arrived and heres the rear one in under the seat.
Surprise was they are in a new taller casing that is 112mm tall instead of the old 87mm.
They have been totally redesigned with more than double the capacitance from 6300mf to 14000mf and there is now 60 mosfets instead of 48 (same size) they have also improved the cooling of the mosfets so they have better performance over all and feel smoother at low throttle and rpm.


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## jonescg (Nov 3, 2010)

Wow, they are much bigger than before. With all those extra FETs they should dish out a few more amps too. Any idea how much more power you might get? Assuming the motors can take it for long enough, of course.

Shaping up to be a cracker of a weekend! We have 5 bikes confirmed, with Catavolt sure to show up this week. Wonderful news for the series!


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

Catavolt wont make it to Wakefield but there is a Zero that I have been prepping. I will also choose a rider for it.
So that's 5 bikes on the grid !


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## jonescg (Nov 3, 2010)

Hope it passes the capacitor discharge rule...
Shame Jon won't be there


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

Here we go with the 2 bad boys in there. They are set at 80% at the moment and will turn them up to 90% at some stage of the weekend to see if they still cut out.
These new KHB14601's are smoother at low rpm and don't overvolt at 175v like the old ones.


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## SplinterOz (Apr 13, 2011)

Racing shot are uploading at the moment....
These guys were serious today 
Race2-IMGP7699 by Splinter, on Flickr


https://www.flickr.com/photos/splinter/sets/72157647542026482/


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

heh theres a bit of argy bargy going on in the electrics. Pottz didn't even know I was there cause I was trying to go around the outside of him and was just out of sight until we shoulder charged each other as he stood his bike up to exit the turn.
Im on the rear controller only as the front one developed a corrupted micro. Even with half power Im only 1 second slower than the 200hp Voltron beasty.
I got reflash progy and master slave files from Kelly but the files wouldn't load properly. Trying another pc now.


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## SplinterOz (Apr 13, 2011)

Photos have been post processed now... exporting them... upload shortly say about 60 minutes.

Note to all, my photos of the eFXC are all free to use as long as you attribute me as the photographer!
On the Flicker web page you can get to the download area from the image page and pick the size you want.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/splinter/sets/72157647542026482/

All UP NOW


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

Heres some music for your ears.
Flying jets at Queensland
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vLiG5aEp95k


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## Pottz (Jun 20, 2014)

http://youtu.be/sD_4eWm-qso

Sorry, I fail at embedding video again. Here is race 4 for you to check out if you are interested.
I also failed at staying on track but it has some good footage of Danny showing me how to corner at Wakefield.


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

Pottz said:


> I also failed at staying on track but it has some good footage of Danny showing me how to corner at Wakefield.


 I wasn't showing you how to corner I was showing Voltron.
I didn't know you could ride until I saw this shot...


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

The wobbly ctlr has been sent back to Kelly in China as the reflash didn't fix it.
I had to pull the motor apart again as a shim between the shaft and bearing got peened out and thinned which let the shaft move off center and the magnets started skidding on the stator. The bearing inner race was probly spinning on its shaft and that wore through the shim.
I put a new shim in between the rotor and shaft where there is no movement.
Both battery packs are running well and not showing any signs of voltage drop after 2 years of racing.
Cudo's to Kellys new KHB14601's as I was running only 1 set at 100% motor current and 100% battery current. By the end of the 6 lap race the casing only got to about 55C. I was using a 80mm fan blowing air through it. I did notice a reduction in power starting the last lap.


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## jonescg (Nov 3, 2010)

RIPPERTON said:


> I did notice a reduction in power starting the last lap.


That was probably just the voltage of the pack dropping during discharge - Voltron does the same with the smaller pack, but you barely notice it with the 9 kWh pack.


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## Frank (Dec 6, 2008)

Are you still using the YGS lipo at 42s10p?


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

jonescg said:


> That was probably just the voltage of the pack dropping during discharge - Voltron does the same with the smaller pack, but you barely notice it with the 9 kWh pack.


You really need a graphic display with individual voltage readout especially as you are only 2p. The first thing you want to know when you come off the track is if there are any low cells and how uneven the pack is at near bottom of charge.
First thing I do after I get off the bike is plug in the USB so my pack comes up on screen then I take my gloves and helmet off.
My pack is technically 7kWh (YGS 4Ah 42s10p) but I could only use 5.5 as the cells come down quite unevenly. You only have 6kWh and 2p, theres much more potential for a crash.
Sure we are both only using 4kWh in an 8 minute race, but if your pack has the same 1.5kWh of unusable energy it only has 500Wh of buffer.


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## jonescg (Nov 3, 2010)

Voltron has an LVC warning which alerts Danny of a low cell. If it's sounding, you're nursing it back to the pits. Doesn't matter if I have a digital read-out or a Ferris wheel; the warning and the action are the same. After 8 hard laps we're at 600 V, which is about as low as you'd want to take this smaller pack (3.57 V per cell). The alarm goes off at 3 V per cell, but we'll complete almost any nationally competitive race (typically 8 laps of a 2.4 km circuit) without hitting LVC.


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

Awesome video By Cycle Torque magazine.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pDYFtk6M7C0


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

Voltron with the 600's at Barbagallo WA

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TUcgtAUf8cE


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## SplinterOz (Apr 13, 2011)

RIPPERTON said:


> Voltron with the 600's at Barbagallo WA
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TUcgtAUf8cE


Video description says 1000cc.... either way impressive.


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

SplinterOz said:


> Video description says 1000cc.... either way impressive.


I can see 2 R6's and a CBR600 in front, don't know what the 4th bike was.
But yeah it seems to be running better.


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## jonescg (Nov 3, 2010)

I know that one of the bikes at the front was a litre bike, but yeah, there were 600s in the mix. Paul Cox was racing Voltron in Clubman 1000 the weekend after, and he had no trouble staying beside with them at the start. 

Note the wheelspin coming out of the basin  Time for new boots I think.


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## Pottz (Jun 20, 2014)

How's your bike looking Danny? 
Get that replacement controller in and working well yet?


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

Pottz said:


> How's your bike looking Danny?
> Get that replacement controller in and working well yet?


 I did get the front ctlr reflashed but that didnt fix it so I sent it and the previous one that exploded back to Hefei China where Fany is looking at the right now.
Ive been doing a lot of work on Davids Zero, got a new rear pully and got eh Aprilia RSV fairing on.
Got a new job too after 1 year, 8 months of limbo so that means new slicks and a set of rain tires on OEM rims.
Feeling good about SMP


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## Pottz (Jun 20, 2014)

sweet, cant wait to see the Zero. You guys picked the sexiest set of fairings for the job thats for sure!

Hopefully those wets are not needed for Sydney. 
Cant wait.


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

The R1 now has 2 fully functioning 600A Kellys and it seems for now to be running properly but Ive have seen some gremlins in there. It sometimes runs very rough.
The new Kelly KHB14601's are worlds ahead of the old ones. Much smoother taking off from standstill and seem to be less prone to cutting out at full throttle. I still have them set to 90% motor current and 70% battery current and around the streets here the bike is pretty scary when you wind the throttle on.
The smooth setting option is still a mystery to me as Ive played with it a bit and have not noticed any difference in performance or operation.
Fingers crossed for SMP in 2 weeks.


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## jonescg (Nov 3, 2010)

Hopefully the gremlins stay away for good. Do you think you'll have it back to where it was before Winton?

I'm crating up Voltron on Monday and sending it east. Looking forward to it!


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

jonescg said:


> Hopefully the gremlins stay away for good. Do you think you'll have it back to where it was before Winton?
> 
> I'm crating up Voltron on Monday and sending it east. Looking forward to it!


It should be better than before Winton.
If it keeps running well Il be looking foreward to coming over to WA next year to sample a few of your tracks.


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

Ive fixed one problem by retarding the Hall timing.
Whilst rolling along with the throttle off as in a corner and you pick up the throttle to accelerate, it would come on with a thud and also some "engine braking" before you got to neutral throttle. Also the regen would come on with a thud which was excruciating.
So I loosened the Hall sensor bolts and clamped the throttle at a fast idle, about 500rpm and started to move the sensor around a bit. As I retarded it the motor rpm came up quite a bit then when I kept retarding it further the rpm came back down so I had found a sweet spot.
I was then quite eager to take it out and was pleased to find total smoothness in all transitions of throttle off and on and regen on and off.
This should make it a pleasure to ride on track now and reduce the chance of a slide in turns.
Now I still have the problem of the other gremlins that cause the system to run rough after 5 minutes of riding.
I get the bike back on the stand and disconnect the front controller and it runs smooth, reconnect the front and disconnect the rear and it runs smooth.
Connect the rear wiring harness to the front controller and it runs smooth.
reconnect both controllers and it runs rough. tricky problem this.


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

And the answer is... Hall Sensor.
At least with 24km done today, hasn't cut out.
Bizarre problem but a Hall sensor could intermittently fade and only have enough signal for 1 controller.
The sensor is mounted to the motor frame but it wasn't that getting hot.
This sensor has been in there since day 1 so It may have fatigued.
Still got fingers crossed.


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

Fany at Kelly controls told me not to modify the new replacement controller he sent under warranty but that's not how we operate down here besides I never do as Im told anyway so I went and got $360 worth of 6mm copper plate and made some new heatsinks for the Mosfets.



Critical here was to increase thermal conductivity and give the Mosfets perfect insulation from each other and from the casing.
The backs of the Mosfets (heatsink) of phase 1 for example must be insulated from the backs of the Mosfets of phase 2 and 3.
The problems start when you try to use the casing as a heat sink. The casing will short all the 3 phases together if you don't insulate the screws holding the heatsinks to the casing. Kelly have plastic sheaths for each screw and rubber heat transfer sheet between the aluminium heatsink block and the casing.
Solution...don't use the casing as a heatsink.
I made individual phase heatsinks from 6mm copper and then fan forced them with 2 80mm fans.
The copper heatsinks are floating inside the casing and they don't touch anything.



I had to drill all the Mosfet mounting holes from 3.8 out to 4mm so I could use M4x12 dome screws from the outside through the Mosfet into a 4mm thick threaded aluminium nut plate. The nut plate pushes down on the raised border of the plastic face of the Mosfet.





So now the casing is looking pretty breathy but they will get replaced later on with one single casing made from 8mm Teflon plate so both controllers will be under the seat with 4 fans.


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

Shot of the new larger capacitor with the Selleys KwikGrip under the rim for ruggedizing.
The new caps are 7 times bigger but they still have the same size stalks and without the glue, they flop around in the breeze and will soon break off. If a couple fall off the capacitance is reduced but having a metal case they will short circuit all the busbars.
I have pointed this out to Kelly but Im not sure they have listened.


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## jonescg (Nov 3, 2010)

I hope for everyone in general, and your safety in particular, that it doesn't rain this weekend! 

See you soon!

Chris


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

Qualified 3rd behind Voltron and Varley cause I just wasn't trying and the heat wave was killing the bikes. Also the tires are shagged so will try to get new ones tmrw.
Eric Bostroms Brammo was put through its paces today by Simon Galloway who rode Catavolt. He said the power was good but gearbox has a bit of backlash and the Ohlins needed a bit of adjusting. Simon was about 3 seconds behind the big bikes.
Here Eboz getting cooled down after a run in the sweltering heat, 39C ambient and 60C track temps.


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

This is Australia...
Just behind the pits


Inside one of the pits


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

4 second place finishes behind Voltron and the Rippertron ran almost faultlessly the whole weekend. Still cutting out at full throttle low speed and still not able to make any sense of the "smooth" function.
Second place in the series too but very clear in my mind is whats possible with electric bikes in the near future.
The design criteria now is a muscle bike that is light and handles well.
Basically everything that a MotoGP bike is.
Voltron is half way there. Its drive drain proved to be one of the most powerful in the whole paddock with top speeds of 250kmh, only its chassis needing to catch up to the real ICE superbikes to the tune of 10 seconds a lap.
Here is 3rd place finisher Jason Morris almost catching me in race 3 but then falls victim to a battery failure. Watch at 2m55s as he almost goes over the bars the bike shuts down so hard. The red and blue bike is Bostroms Brammo ridden by A grader Simon Galloway.
My top speeds are around 210kmh
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kv8L1R1rR_c&list=UUoOd7A2JVRmeuaEfGbO7f_g


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

Another video, race 4 front view.
Watch at 3m25s Pottz moves in front and slams the brakes on, I have to do the same to avoid a crash.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XjP1HO5Ej3E&list=UUoOd7A2JVRmeuaEfGbO7f_g


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

Same race from the rear

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O0bGRpBe4Hs&list=UUoOd7A2JVRmeuaEfGbO7f_g


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## Pottz (Jun 20, 2014)

RIPPERTON said:


> Another video, race 4 front view.
> Watch at 3m25s Pottz moves in front and slams the brakes on, I have to do the same to avoid a crash.
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XjP1HO5Ej3E&list=UUoOd7A2JVRmeuaEfGbO7f_g



WOW, sorry about that, I had no idea it was that close. um..... thanks for not smashing into the back of me. 

Well done and thanks for the competition and good racing all year. Bloody good effort to keep the bike running with the controller issues, I think yours and our bikes were the only ones to make every race. That alone is a pretty big achievement in something like this not to mention how much you pushed us all year. 

Seeing the times from 2011 to now drop so rapidly I'd say it wont be long till the electrics bridge that 10 or so second gap to the superbikes.


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## iwyze (May 24, 2009)

Who said water, electricity and EV's dont mix! On the day this was a make shift evaporative cooler enabled us to cool the batteries to slightly below ambient within 30 minutes to be able to take the bike back out onto the track.


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## jonescg (Nov 3, 2010)

My mate Tony Smyth took a few good pics on the weekend - here's Ripperton in full flight:


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

Nice shot
Veins bulging, Discs blue, chain whiring.....That's racing


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

Heres the results with top speed.

http://www.formula-xtreme.com.au/NewsDetails?newsid=7816


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

Awesome flyby vid from the top of the pit building.
Voltron doing 250kmh.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Z0OE0Xt5jg&index=1&list=UUsT_VJbvxHKn4hWVdX7wFCg


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

And the Brammo onboard.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6StXS8QWsDU


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## Pottz (Jun 20, 2014)

We weirdly had Camera dramas all weekend, I wasnt going to make this public because this one is crooked and the sound is rubbish but its all I have till we put something decent together hopfully soon. Then again all the rest of the onboards are here so.......

Onboard Voltron's 1:47 Qualifying lap.
http://youtu.be/13_oT-x4Xbg


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

Pottz said:


> We weirdly had Camera dramas all weekend, I wasnt going to make this public because this one is crooked and the sound is rubbish but its all I have till we put something decent together hopfully soon. Then again all the rest of the onboards are here so.......
> 
> Onboard Voltron's 1:47 Qualifying lap.
> http://youtu.be/13_oT-x4Xbg


I got off cheap, $40 for these Ebay jobs that I didn't think would work cause at first they had a lot of flutter and flag waving distortion in the image but they worked out ok and good sound too.
http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/221416747738?ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1439.l2649

Your regen sound like a rooster crowing and you cant hear the motor till the torque vectoring tapers off.
There must be so much power on that thing that your not using at lower speeds


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## jonescg (Nov 3, 2010)

RIPPERTON said:


> I got off cheap, $40 for these Ebay jobs that I didn't think would work cause at first they had a lot of flutter and flag waving distortion in the image but they worked out ok and good sound too.
> http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/221416747738?ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1439.l2649
> 
> Your regen sound like a rooster crowing and you cant hear the motor till the torque vectoring tapers off.
> There must be so much power on that thing that your not using at lower speeds


I think the stray EMI from the inverter was interfering with the cameras. They worked OK until the main straight and then they just go on the blink.

The regen is pretty linear. You might be hearing the rear break traction slightly, so it sort of squirms a bit. Also, I'd say the camera's microphone isn't picking up the high frequency sounds. Power at lower rpm is as linear as you twist it. Only starts to flatten off over about 3800 rpm (or about 210 km/h).


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

jonescg said:


> Power at lower rpm is as linear as you twist it. Only starts to flatten off over about 3800 rpm (or about 210 km/h).


So you havnt dialled in any traction or "wheelie" control at lower speeds, its just throttle control.
If you cracked the throttle at stand still it would do 3 back flips ?


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

Awesome onbike vid from Pottz, last race of the season.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w6uq0lEqiHM&feature=youtu.be


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## Pottz (Jun 20, 2014)

From standstill if I roll on smooth and keep my head down I can use full throttle. If I snap it on..... Probably backflips.
It seems to "ramp up" a little so it's not that insane. It's pretty smooth and nice to control. I just have to be carefull between about 150-200kph, that's where it's in the sweet spot and will wheelie everywhere if I'm not careful.

P.S love the bit in that vid where you do a jump over the curb, that's what I wanted from your bike but it looked great from what I had looking back.


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

Heres some shots from Tony Castley Splinter OZ

charging in the pits


turn 5


turn 5


turn 2 exit




2 Dannys


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

The 2 Kelly's have been boxed together into one unit that is more compact and 2 kg lighter than the original separate units (10.4kg). This will go under the seat between the subframe rails.
I added an internal crossmember in the rear that braced the DC busbars off to the new aluminium side panels. The DC busbars were the only structural part of the controller and couldn't touch the copper heatsinks as they are just attached to the Mosfets. The heatsinks are lightly braced off to the Teflon fan panels to arrest any vibration. The front panel is also a crossmember that rigidifies the assembly.

http://s37.photobucket.com/user/ripperton_2008/media/Electric R1/TWIN6001_zps1b6e98a4.jpg.html

Teflon is weird stuff, has almost contradictory characteristics.
Its dense and heavy and cuts very cleanly but its floppy !, very bendy and not structural. The main reason I used it here is because of its temperature limit which is 220C so it will handle a bit of hot air blast from the copper heat sinks. Its expensive too, I bough a piece of 8.8mm thick 1.5m x 300m which cost $150AUD and that was reduced.


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

RIPPERTON said:


> Shot of the new larger capacitor with the Selleys KwikGrip under the rim for ruggedizing.
> The new caps are 7 times bigger but they still have the same size stalks and without the glue, they flop around in the breeze and will soon break off. If a couple fall off the capacitance is reduced but having a metal case they will short circuit all the busbars.
> I have pointed this out to Kelly but Im not sure they have listened.


I have just had an earlier 600A controller from a reverse trike project replaced under warranty with a current model (large caps) and Kelly have confirmed that the caps are not potted.
Anyone buying a Kelly should look at this and try potting the caps if not they will fatigue and fall off.


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

Couple more shots from Tony Castley.
EBoz


the inside line


Jason Morris on the Varley/Ducati. Got 3rd in championship


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

Things are getting carnal at Ripperton Labs.
Ive chopped the Quadstack in half to get rid of the troublesome synch idlers which would flog out a bearing in 1 race meet.
I have to separate the 2 motors by about 6mm so the synch chain forms a simple oval instead of a almost figure 8 so it goes through less bends.
Might gain a few kW.
The motor frames will be kept apart with 4 M6 jack bolts so I can still thermo tune the stators.
Theres the badboy on the left, my favourite power tool, the 115mm cutoff wheel.


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

Recut the synch side bracket so I could flip the 2 sprockets around and run the chain closer to the frame. More compact and closer to the bearing.



You can just see the M6 hex head used as a jacking bolt in the gap.


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## kennybobby (Aug 10, 2012)

That is quite an amazing machine you have built--stripped down to the bare bones.

Think you could put a few more turns of copper in the windings? haha

It looks like a 3-phase delta-winding motor without any laminations--where is the back iron for the stator? 

What size are the bearings and how are they held in the end plates? A pair of angular contact bearings might be used to stiffen up the axial load path if the motor seems to be quickly wearing out the radial bearings.


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

kennybobby said:


> It looks like a 3-phase delta-winding motor without any laminations--where is the back iron for the stator?
> 
> What size are the bearings and how are they held in the end plates? A pair of angular contact bearings might be used to stiffen up the axial load path if the motor seems to be quickly wearing out the radial bearings.


 
Its a Motenergy stator. Y connected with 4 pole pairs.
http://www.motenergy.com/me0913.html .
The core laminations are hidden under the winding loops.

Its not the main shaft bearings that are wearing out its the synch idler bearings.
The top shaft has worn a little under the bearing inner races so they have developed some slack. It will have to be welded up and remachined.


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

The motor split operation works and even runs both motors at the same temp for the moment. And its a lot smoother and quieter.



Heres the pile of giblets that goes to the recycle bin.



This is the top motor shaft that was merely 0.15mm undersize at the bearing (where the punch marks are) probably causing more noise and would have destroyed the shaft sooner than later.


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

Had the bike out at SMP yesterday for 2 sessions.
The bike felt like it had less power and barely got to 210kmh.
I suspected the 2 motors wernt synched so I put the laser thermo on them back in the pits after 3 laps.
The lower motor winding was 114C and the top was 90C so the lower motor frame had to be turned backwards a few degrees so it would be doing less work.
Pulled the battery pack out and fiddled with the jacking bolts a bit and went out on track again.
Pulled in after 2 laps and the temps were still different but less so like about 105C top and 95C bottom. This is half the reason for the lack of power so I will have another go at the jacking bolts later at home. But the bike is decidedly quieter now without the idlers.
The other reason is I think the magnets have deteriorated.
I got a quote for new magnets and they are more expensive now than in 2011. Will have to save up for them.


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

Had 2 more attempts at synching the 2 motors and had to mod the brackets a lot to get the lower motor to turn backwards far enough but finally got the 2 motors to run at the same temp.
This is a shot of the left side of the motor just below the drive sprocket which turns anticlock in this shot.
In through the slots you can see the surface of the lower motor frame which is on a fair angle to the slot surface (being parallel to the top motor).


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

Had a great weekend out at Mallala for the first round of the Australian eFXC electric bike series.
Voltron was out front and reliable scoring 4 1st place finishes.
The Varley was very hot and cold as usual running very well in the first race and scoring a 2nd place but cutting out completely in race 2 and 3 gifting me the 2nd place. Race 4 Varley cut out also but was able to reboot and take second.
Im running on low power as the magnets in both my motors are heat weakened and need replacing.
Should have new ones in there by next round at SMP.
Check out the live feed video from race 4.
Fast forward to 3h and 1 minute.

http://www.formula-xtreme.com.au/NewsDetails.aspx?newsid=3548


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

Forgot to mention the twin Kelly controller with copper heat sinks performed perfectly over the weekend and never seems to have any real heat in it when I get off the bike.
Pottz has an accelerometer which we fixed to my bike for a race and found some cool stuff in there. Im pulling 1G on decel and Voltron has about 0.8G so that means iv got some pretty good brakes or big fingers.
Will get a screenshot soon.

Mallala pits




Varley being worked on constantly trying to get the bugs out of the BMS system.


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

Heres BMS screenshot after the race showing 0.02v difference between cells.
4kW Elcon charger ran for 1 hour and 15 minutes to recharge after the race so that's 5kWh used during the race.


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## SplinterOz (Apr 13, 2011)

Great weekend guys. Hope you all had a good trip back home.


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## jonescg (Nov 3, 2010)

Yeah a great weekend all up. So good to see the Varley machine running more reliably and finishing races, even if it's still got a few bugs.

Interesting you were using 5 kWh, Dan. We used a maximum of 6.4 Ah in race 4 at a nominal ~640 V, so about 4 kWh (give or take 0.2 kWh) for the same race distance. 

Have to find the video of Pottz pulling an electric wheelie over the line for the chequers. Might be the only one we see all year - I reckon they specifically put a hump over the start finish line


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

jonescg said:


> Interesting you were using 5 kWh, Dan. We used a maximum of 6.4 Ah in race 4 at a nominal ~640 V, so about 4 kWh (give or take 0.2 kWh) for the same race distance.
> 
> Have to find the video of Pottz pulling an electric wheelie over the line for the chequers. Might be the only one we see all year - I reckon they specifically put a hump over the start finish line


Yeah I was going off the charge time only and Im sure the Elcon is rated the 4kW on the output side.
I think its because of the weaker magnets that it could use that much energy. Will see if its any better with new magnets in.
But even with new magnets its not the most efficient design, I mean I just drew these things up and threw them in there without much care for overall efficiency. Will have to get an over the shelf motor designed from scratch without any mods to achieve the kind of energy usage you are getting. I mean you havnt even taken the side cover off your EVO. ?
I would have at least looked in there to get an idea of basic architecture and magnet size. Will be interesting to see how long your magnets last for...


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

Race 3 on Sunday morning. The bastards missed the start where I hole shot and started to run away with it... kind of.. before being passed by Jason. Then Jasons bike cut out, and restarted but couldn't get back past me.
fast foreward to 2h 56m minutes in the upper screen.
\http://livestream.com/accounts/1658248/events/4028643


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## jonescg (Nov 3, 2010)

Think you'll find that's the afternoon race. They didn't have the cameras set up till midway through race 2.

Edit - D'oh! Didn't see the other screen


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

Accelerometer screen shot of Voltron V Ripperton braking into turn 5 at Mallala. Seems I have 46% bigger fingers than Pottz.


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

Voltron on bike video.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hwupSVc0cMQ


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## jonescg (Nov 3, 2010)

RIPPERTON said:


> Yeah I was going off the charge time only and Im sure the Elcon is rated the 4kW on the output side.
> I think its because of the weaker magnets that it could use that much energy. Will see if its any better with new magnets in.
> But even with new magnets its not the most efficient design, I mean I just drew these things up and threw them in there without much care for overall efficiency. Will have to get an over the shelf motor designed from scratch without any mods to achieve the kind of energy usage you are getting. I mean you havnt even taken the side cover off your EVO. ?
> I would have at least looked in there to get an idea of basic architecture and magnet size. Will be interesting to see how long your magnets last for...


I wish I could afford a Brusa charger - liquid cooled 22 kW, three phase input  Then you don't need the spare battery!

I expect the Evo motor to have a very long life, as we are never pushing it to its limits. Peak power is something like 200 kW for 30 seconds or something, and we've only ever briefly pushed it to about 150 kW. The windings have a hard upper limit of 160'C, but we have set our shut-down limit to 135'C. The motor is never any warmer than 40'C when it come in after a race.

I did take the top cover off the Evo motor, but the side covers are lock-tighted in place, and I really wouldn't know what I was doing in there anyway. Despite being 10 kg heavier than the AFM130, it puts out 40 more kW. I'm glad I went with this one. No way we could beat a 1000cc bike with the 130, but once the handling is sorted it should be able to circulate with the superbikes. 

This was the view from above:


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

jonescg said:


> I expect the Evo motor to have a very long life, as we are never pushing it to its limits. Peak power is something like 200 kW for 30 seconds or something, and we've only ever briefly pushed it to about 150 kW. The windings have a hard upper limit of 160'C, but we have set our shut-down limit to 135'C. The motor is never any warmer than 40'C when it come in after a race.
> 
> I did take the top cover off the Evo motor, but the side covers are lock-tighted in place, and I really wouldn't know what I was doing in there anyway. Despite being 10 kg heavier than the AFM130, it puts out 40 more kW. I'm glad I went with this one. No way we could beat a 1000cc bike with the 130, but once the handling is sorted it should be able to circulate with the superbikes.


That's clear evidence you have too much motor on board.
Plus you say it puts out 40kW more than the 130 but its got 50kW your not even using ! so you should have chosen the 130.
going for liter bike performance, you are aiming a bit high for a first attempt specially with that frame, its a bit heavy.
Im still going after the 600's and realistically, that's a long shot.
I think you've got it handling good enough for now and should concentrate on the other important area...brakes.
Get a 6 piston R1 front end and dial in some regen control.
MotoGP bikes pull 1.7 G's on brakes !!!! that leaves me in the shade with my 1.05 G and your 0.7 G's is not even serious.
http://www.msgroup.org/forums/mtt/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=14283

http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Yamaha-R...05?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_15&hash=item4aea522bc5


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## jonescg (Nov 3, 2010)

Perhaps it's more motor than we need, but once we have it handling well, we won't have to go and buy another motor in order to go faster. We're not likely to demagnetise our rotor at these power levels, either. Safe and steady, then dial up as the opportunities permit.

Litre bike performance was always the objective. We'll get there eventually.


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## Grinhill (Dec 9, 2014)

Good work guys, I see you've left the 300s behind by a few seconds a lap.

Only another 10 seconds to cut to beat those litre bikes now! 

BTW, did Varley say if they have given up on the Ducati?


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

Grinhill said:


> Good work guys, I see you've left the 300s behind by a few seconds a lap.
> Only another 10 seconds to cut to beat those litre bikes now!
> BTW, did Varley say if they have given up on the Ducati?


No, it got a load of new LiPo's just like the CBR so it could be back on track soon.


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## jonescg (Nov 3, 2010)

The Ducati is a working bike, but they are planning on having it race ready in time for Sydney. 

It's funny we were slower than the fastest 300s at the start of 2014, but left them behind by round 4. Now we're in front of them and creeping into the back of the Pro-Twins. 
Getting faster all the time


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

Mother of all catastrophic nightmares from hell because of stupid fucking Chinese idiots who think they can send me any fucking magnet because close enough is good enough.
This is what they send me.










This is one of MY designed magnets. You can see the obvious difference.


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

My assumptions verified, the sales person discovered that the production manager simply substituted my design for an existing magnet from another customer that had coincidentally very similar dimensions.
ID and OD were exact but the base V was too wide and would not allow 8 magnets to be arrayed at the correct PCD.
So they have apologised and promised to make my described design in another 18 days. Just 4 days too late for the next round of eFXC.


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## jonescg (Nov 3, 2010)

Ah man that sucks the big one 

I hope they're not charging you to send it back! Otherwise keep them for another project... 

We just crated up Voltron ready for pickup next week.


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## hmincr (Jan 20, 2012)

Ripperton, have you heard about cutting magnets using a ceramic tile wet saw with diamond wheel ? 

I once read an article where someone bought square magnets than sawed the sides to make taper pieces for circular design rotor.. 

Might be worth a try on an old magnet ?? Just use maximum water flow. ?


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

hmincr said:


> Ripperton, have you heard about cutting magnets using a ceramic tile wet saw with diamond wheel ?
> I once read an article where someone bought square magnets than sawed the sides to make taper pieces for circular design rotor..
> Might be worth a try on an old magnet ?? Just use maximum water flow. ?


I was just thinking about experimenting with a hack saw this morning but then would that weaken the magnet and then you would have this hand cut thing that wasn't a geometric perfect shape. You could still make them all weigh the same.
I have to rely on a consistent shape so they fit into the rotor frame with equal clearance all around. The 2 rotor frame halves have to clamp together without touching the magnets. The magnets have to rattle slightly when the screws are tight. The clearance is taken up with high density silicon sealant. If the rotor frame clamps down on the magnet it will shatter.


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## hmincr (Jan 20, 2012)

I would venture a guess that a hacksaw would not cut clean, and would destroy the magnet. The metals are sintered, welded to make the shape. The dust-shavings from cutting are very flammable, so, the tile wet saw is the perfect thing to try. You must know someone that has one, or, a rental place for a demo ??

Surely, with you remarkable skills, you could try cutting one, no matter if it was not an original. If it does work, what have you got to lose?

You have both types in your hands. Measure and see. You might just make that race with new magnets ??

I can't cut glass for shit, but, a scratching type tile cutter does an excellent job.


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

Ive recently found out you can cut Neodymium with a cnc so you can guess what Im doing this weekend .

The Chinese idiots are still making my proper designs so I will swap them over when I get them.
There is some material that shouldn't be there which Im cutting off but there is also some that's missing right up high on the shoulder. The shoulders arnt wide enough and leave a bit too much air gap.


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

Couple of shots from Mallala courtesy of Tony Castley.


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## hmincr (Jan 20, 2012)

Nice photos.

How did the re-cut magnets work out? Did you try them out on a test ride ?

Any secrets on what tooling and speed you used for the cutting? Might be very interesting for someone that wants to experiment.


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

About 8000 rpm with a 6mm twin flute steel end mill, soluble oil / water.
bloody noisy. Surprised the magnets didnt fracture but they will be coming out as soon as the proper ones arrive.


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

16 new magnets 
Should have this thing running by tmrw.










This pastey stuff is the material that I removed from the magnets.
Its no longer magnetic but is ferrous ie it can be attracted by a magnet.


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## jonescg (Nov 3, 2010)

Fascinating stuff. Loved the video of sparks flying off at 8000 rpm  Any noticeable change in the strength of the newly machined magnets?


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

jonescg said:


> Fascinating stuff. Loved the video of sparks flying off at 8000 rpm  Any noticeable change in the strength of the newly machined magnets?


Didn't check for any difference between new and machined but the difference between old magnets and new machined ones was staggering.
I hold each magnet up to a steel sheet metal surface with my fingers between the magnet and steel and feel the pressure the magnet generates.
Also compare the amount of force it takes for my fingers to lift the magnet off the steel. The new magnets needed twice the force.
I first tried to cut the magnets with a cut off wheel in a 115mm grinder and there was a blue orange flame coming off the wheel with sparks as well.
Looked like a rocket flame. Neodymium is truly flammable.


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

Didn't know they were so complicated to make.
But John Fiorenza says mine were wire cut.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=noGGcyPHtdI


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

Got the motor back together yesterday and did a short test ride.
Runs fine, Its got more power but not as much as I expected.
Will see how it goes this weekend at SMP.


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

Well its doing wheelies from standing start with my 14-44 ratio.
I use a 15-44 for SMP and a 13-44 for Wakefield.
Will be using the 15-41 for SMP this weekend and should have a 225kmh top speed.


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## tylerwatts (Feb 9, 2012)

Wow. Rip would you ever consider building your motors as singles (not 2 like your race bike) for DIY conversions? I'd be interested in a liquid cooled motor. What sort of continuous power does one motor provide, and a 30s peak? 
Thanks


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

tylerwatts said:


> Wow. Rip would you ever consider building your motors as singles for DIY conversions?


Nope
Id build them for myself though like for karts and MX bikes.


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

Perfect weather at SMP for round 2 of eFXC except only for short daylight hours. Friday "night" qualifying was almost in the dark and could not see the edge of the track so couldn't tell if you were running wide or not.
Saturday mornings race was in the early sun but track temp was still down and the bike got loose a few times.
They put us on before the gas bikes warmup because of the local noise restrictions, we are on track during the restriction because we don't make much noise.
So I got 3rd place overall, 3 3rd places and a second due to Varley systematically sabotaging itself in race 2 and 4 but Jason rebooted it in race 4 and got past me with about 20m before the finish line. Would have got 2nd overall if he was a second further back.
One cutout was due to a BMS board breaking off and rattling around shutting the bike down.
The modded magnets didn't really perform as the bikes top speed was no better than with the 4 year old magnets. Still the bike did wheelies off the start line with the 15-44 gearing and out started Varley up until turn 1 then both Varley and Voltron took off.
Heres the illustrious Ripperton lounging around in the pits with a strange smirk like he's been watching too many Carl Munck videos or something.


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## Grinhill (Dec 9, 2014)

Well done for third place, it was good to see some racing yesterday.

Running 44 rear, I thought you had already fitted a 41 rear. May have helped get ahead of Varley!


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

Started with the 41 but the dodgy magnets wouldnt push it, only 200 kmh top and was slow out of corners so went to the 44, still 200kmh top but better corner exits


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

Live feed from 6h 50m onwards

http://www.formula-xtreme.com.au/NewsDetails.aspx?newsid=3548


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## SplinterOz (Apr 13, 2011)

Boy they are still saying this is a Demonstration race.


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

Well heres few Demonstration photos then thanks to Splinter.



















The self sabotaging Varley.









Worlds most modified Zero









And the 700v Voltron


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

Got the proper magnets on the Tuesday after the race only 5 days late but they fit perfectly and have built one rotor but the other rotor frame has 4 broken spokes at the base so will have to make a few new ones.
Might as well make 3 rotors using the machined magnets and build kart motors with them. The proper magnets feel slightly stronger so Im hoping I will be on full power this time.


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

Apparently the production manager at Ningbo magnets who caused my nightmares had to pay for the manufacture of my proper magnets out of his own pocket but was not fired !
that is his fate next time he sells me the wrong magnets.


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

The proper magnets are a slight improvement over the cut magnets but still not as powerful as the original ones I bought in 2011.
They seem to have more mid range power and less bottom ie they wont do wheelies as much as the cut magnets. They make a bit of harmonic screechy noise at light throttle too like the sinusoidal Motenergy magnets I had in 2010.
Probably going to get my ass handed to me in QLD anyway so will leave it as is for now and start planning my next bike.


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## jonescg (Nov 3, 2010)

RIPPERTON said:


> so will leave it as is for now and start planning my next bike.


I'm excited for you man! The Ripperton R1 has been a trusty steed, but there's some asphalt pasture it needs to graze on while making room for new blood .

See you in about 11 days!


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

Another awesome race weekend up in Queensland at Willowbank raceway.
See the Sunday afternoon race below at 6h14m.
Jasons Varley shuts down once again and almost gets past me at the line. very close...

http://www.formula-xtreme.com.au/NewsDetails.aspx?newsid=3548


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

Other big news is I had my first Lipo fire on Friday morning pulling into the pits after the first practice session.
I had my No. 1 pack in and the high average full throttle at this track and slightly tall gearing must have loaded some of the cells up and I also did 1 too many laps. Plus this pack had some less that A grade cells meaning they had high IR and ran a bit hotter than the A grade cells in pack 2.
Didn't notice anything on track, no loss of power and no smell but the track marshals at the exit saw white smoke coming out of the top of the battery pack.
As I got through the track exit / scrutineering centre and started across the parking area I looked down to check the cell temp and saw thick white smoke coming out of the pack. I kind of panicked a bit but started to look around for a water hose but couldn't see any. I rolled up to the Varley trailer and they said "shit your on fire dude" so I said get an extinguisher then said no get a camera ! lol. 
Then the coolest thing happened, I thought it was time to pull the pack out so the rest of the bike didn't go up, I lay the bike over on its right side and grabbed the quick release handle of the pack and just pulled it right out 
onto the ground. It slid out without sticking or catching on anything exactly like I had envisaged it.
The Varley mechanic then grabbed their extinguisher and shot some foam through the fans but it didn't reach the cells and was mostly ineffective. 
Then I lugged the 55kg pack 50m up to the end of the pit building where I found a tap, I lay the pack on its side with the fans facing up and started to dribble the water straight through the fans across the cells and out the other side over the ground. The smoke started to reduce immediately and had completely reversed the thermal runaway in no more than 10 minutes.
I left the pack there with water running through it for a couple of hours and went and put the No. 2 pack in and did some more practice sessions.
Ive started pulling the pack apart at home and have counted 4 defective cell blocks with 0 volts, 3 of which are next to each other and welded together.
This pack might be relegated to commuter duties now and I will complete the season on the other pack.
You can see white smoke coming out of the top of the pack.


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

Heres more shots from Tony Castley.
Rip chucks a big wheelie off the grid.
Pottz out brakes himself in T6 and skids off into the gravel, comes to a stop and then discovers his legs arnt long enough to hold the bike up and drops it on its side, ends up coming last. No damage to the bike, I said go home that's not a crash !
Only 3 electric bikes in Australia ? We have a sad shortage of mad scientists down here.
Ripperton on the Dyno with a paltry 95hp. The new magnets arnt up to it.


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## Scottydog (Nov 4, 2014)

Amazing bikes! So lucky and awesome the quick removal setup for the battery worked out. I'm curious to how these bikes compare to the IOM TT bikes, would they be competitive you think? Are the TT bikes power limitied with larger batteries to get additional range?


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## jonescg (Nov 3, 2010)

Scottydog said:


> Amazing bikes! So lucky and awesome the quick removal setup for the battery worked out. I'm curious to how these bikes compare to the IOM TT bikes, would they be competitive you think? Are the TT bikes power limitied with larger batteries to get additional range?


Voltron would certainly be competitive at the IOM, but we need more battery. At least 14 kWh worth. We could limit the power to 150 hp or so, and gear it rather tall, but I reckon 14 kWh would be enough.


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

Voltron Evo pulls 230hp / 172kW on the dyno.
Deceptively quiet and no fuss compared to a 1000cc superbike (205hp)
Now all Chris has to do is make it go faster than a superbike.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gKZxau67Pno


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## SplinterOz (Apr 13, 2011)

Unlike yours that seems to be quite a handful!




https://youtu.be/OCM8sSx3nAM


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## kennybobby (Aug 10, 2012)

Can you post the dyno chart? Does it give the torque also, and is the x-axis speed or time?

Awesome machines that you guys have built! kb


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

kennybobby said:


> Can you post the dyno chart? Does it give the torque also, and is the x-axis speed or time?


We couldn't even get a photo of the screen because there was too much glare from the sun and they were too busy with other bikes to save a screen shot.
They couldn't get our motor rpm to calculate torque but the x axis was speed.


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

Another wonderful race weekend down at Wakefield with mixed weather.
I actually got to use my rain tires during qualifying but wasn't on them long enough to get to know them. Varley and Voltron didn't bother going out in the wet so David Hiley on the Zero and myself got to hogg the pole. 
I also had to wrap the ctlrs and battery pack to stop the misting getting in there. 
Also during qualifying the Ripperton clocked up 5000 electric km. 
I got a second place overall for the weekend. a first, 2 seconds and a third.
The first place was by 18 seconds advance as I still had my rain tires on but it wasn't actually raining nor was the track wet but it was extremely cold and rain tires work well as long as they don't get hot. Varley and Voltron tip toed around the track and Varley techs were quoted as saying they would not go out if it was raining due to exposed electronics.
Race 2 Varley rider Jason Morris got me at the finish line by 0.007 seconds after I led the whole race but ran wide in the last turn. Coming out of the 2nd last turn I looked back to see how close Jason was and braked too late into the last corner.
Heres the start of race 4.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zfL7yDnvICA


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

Heres YouTube goodness from David Hileys Zero.

Race 1 cold track
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=smQRkYP0pD4

Race 2 still cold, Jason beats me by 0.007 sec
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0D5tlkY0sHU

Race 3 Pottz crashes Voltron in T10 but picks it up
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RTeU9m8mv3o

Race 4 I get Pottz in T4 but run off track and get 3rd
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=etsN0mppBT4


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## Grinhill (Dec 9, 2014)

Some great vids there. Thanks for letting me join in the fun in the pits mate, it was a very enjoyable weekend.


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

Grinhill said:


> Some great vids there. Thanks for letting me join in the fun in the pits mate, it was a very enjoyable weekend.


Thanks for coming, it was cool having you in the team.


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

Yet more awesome photos from Tony Castley (Splinter)
My 18 second lead in race 1. Rain tires work in the dry too but must be very cold track.
This is Jasons victory pump after beating me by 0.007 seconds.
He was THAT confident.
David on the Zero
Formation Flying
Pottz on the precarious Voltron
Race 1 holeshot on rain tires
Pottz gets off the bike "I can save it I can save it really !!"


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

Practicing with the 40hp Ninjas
Here you can feel how cold it is with the visor fogging up on every breath.


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## SplinterOz (Apr 13, 2011)

*Re: Photos*

For those wanting to look at all my photos please go here 

If anyone wants to include them in their posts please include links back to my flickr page.

You can do this by getting the BBCode from the share area on the photo page
EG

eFXC Wakefield 2015 by Tony Castley, on Flickr


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

Doh that's the shot I forgot to post. You can see the regen working hard here going through the turn 1 kink. 3 fingers on the lever and the chain is taught on the lower run.


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## jonescg (Nov 3, 2010)

Getting ready for Winton? Varley will be bringing our bike up for the weekend, which as before, is a fantastic thing. Fresh rubber on the bike and hopefully a dry weekend should make for some impressive times and tight racing.

Unfortunately I can't be there as I have no money and another commitment, but I'll be keeping an eye on the live timing 

Keep up upright guys!

Chris


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

jonescg said:


> Getting ready for Winton? Varley will be bringing our bike up for the weekend, which as before, is a fantastic thing. Fresh rubber on the bike and hopefully a dry weekend should make for some impressive times and tight racing.
> Unfortunately I can't be there as I have no money and another commitment, but I'll be keeping an eye on the live timing
> Keep up upright guys!
> Chris


Bummer, Just make sure Pottz has a hammer so he can work on the bike.
Ive got my blue 47T sprocket of death on the back so will be off the line quicker than ever and Winton Pole to T1 distance is 33m shorter than Wakefield.
Ive also uncovered a programming fault in the Kelly that might explain the low power with the new controllers, ie not the magnets after all.


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## SplinterOz (Apr 13, 2011)

Sounds like we are shaping up for a close weekend.


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

As it turns out, it was close at least for 2 laps.
Heres race 3 Sunday morning in glorious GoPro 50fps.
Im camera bike, Jason Morris on blue bike, Danny Pottz on green white bike,

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QY0WWM5L0Wo


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## Grinhill (Dec 9, 2014)

Some nice overtaking moves in the first lap mate.

Apparently you're supposed to run them off the track if they try and overtake you back according to the MotoGP boys. 

(notice how I've avoided taking sides there!)


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

Thanks Andy, yeah Ive locked elbows with both Pottz and Jason going into corners.
Heres a track side live feed video. Fast forward to 6h 37m for race 4 Sunday afternoon.

http://www.formula-xtreme.com.au/NewsDetails.aspx?newsid=3548


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## Grinhill (Dec 9, 2014)

Worth watching just for Varley burnout: (no his battery isn't on fire!)


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

I found some more power in the Kellys by turning the ctlr max temp up from 98C to 170C (max) so there is a fault in the
calibration of the chip that reads the heat sink temp.
Also turned the battery current up from 70% to 90% as I wasn't seeing any real temperature in the cells after a session.
Further proof that LiPo racing packs need air cooling, My bike will do 5 or 6 sessions in a row on a practice day without
getting hot but Voltron had a limp home in the 5th session as its BMS ramped the ctlr down due to heat in the pack that
eventually built up over the day.
A bit inconvenient as the 5th session is a qualifying session. Don't let this happen to you.


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## SplinterOz (Apr 13, 2011)

T1  by Tony Castley, on Flickr

Pottz and Jason  by Tony Castley, on Flickr

 Dave on the Zero  by Tony Castley, on Flickr

Varley still bottoming front suspension by Tony Castley, on Flickr

T2 by Tony Castley, on Flickr


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## SplinterOz (Apr 13, 2011)

Saturday Races are now being uploaded.


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

Awesome start sequence showing the Ripperton struggling with my great heaving mass (110kg) and Varley going backwards.

eFXC Rnd 5 - Winton by Tony Castley, on Flickr

eFXC Rnd 5 - Winton by Tony Castley, on Flickr

eFXC Rnd 5 - Winton by Tony Castley, on Flickr

eFXC Rnd 5 - Winton by Tony Castley, on Flickr

eFXC Rnd 5 - Winton by Tony Castley, on Flickr


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

Last turn sequence just before I get rounded up by 230hp.

eFXC Rnd 5 - Winton by Tony Castley, on Flickr

eFXC Rnd 5 - Winton by Tony Castley, on Flickr

eFXC Rnd 5 - Winton by Tony Castley, on Flickr

eFXC Rnd 5 - Winton by Tony Castley, on Flickr

eFXC Rnd 5 - Winton by Tony Castley, on Flickr

eFXC Rnd 5 - Winton by Tony Castley, on Flickr


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

4kw times 1 hour and 7 minutes. Energy used per race.
eFXC Rnd 5 - Winton by Tony Castley, on Flickr


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

Turn 1-2 chicane sequence.
eFXC Rnd 5 - Winton by Tony Castley, on Flickr

eFXC Rnd 5 - Winton by Tony Castley, on Flickr

eFXC Rnd 5 - Winton by Tony Castley, on Flickr

eFXC Rnd 5 - Winton by Tony Castley, on Flickr

eFXC Rnd 5 - Winton by Tony Castley, on Flickr

eFXC Rnd 5 - Winton by Tony Castley, on Flickr


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## SplinterOz (Apr 13, 2011)

Now you got the knack of it... can pick smaller sizes if you want.


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## jonescg (Nov 3, 2010)

RIPPERTON said:


> I found some more power in the Kellys by turning the ctlr max temp up from 98C to 170C (max) so there is a fault in the
> calibration of the chip that reads the heat sink temp. Also turned the battery current up from 70% to 90% as I wasn't seeing any real temperature in the cells after a session.
> 
> Further proof that LiPo racing packs need air cooling, My bike will do 5 or 6 sessions in a row on a practice day without getting hot but Voltron had a limp home in the 5th session as its BMS ramped the ctlr down due to heat in the pack that eventually built up over the day.
> ...


Your cells weren't getting hot because they weren't pushing high currents to the controller. Winton is not a circuit which punishes batteries - it punishes motors. The maximum battery currents would have been low compared to Queensland Raceway, but the motor currents were high.

That's why Voltron dialled the power back. The stop-start nature of the circuit means high motor currents, while there are very few sections where you get more than about 4 seconds of airflow through the radiator. Our battery was just fine.


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

Went back to Wakefield last Thursday with David for a ride day and in sweltering heat matched my PB lap times 1.09 with my shortest gearing that I used in Winton 13-47. Still getting 190kmh top speeds.
Had to keep my battery fans on all day long and all the way home in the back of the van. Could only do 4 laps at a time but chopped the petrol boys up. This vid is one of the less hectic sessions, watch at 2 min for the slide.
David is also improving his riding vastly, is real quick through the left hander. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=agAoS9bnFBw


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

Bought a used set of original 98R1 wheels and discs to put the rain tires on. Had to get the rear soda blasted ($80), resprayed and new bearings put in ($120).
The front rim had to be straightened ($100), new bearings ($12) and straightened 1 disc and reground both.
A bit expensive but worth beating the others by 18 seconds if it gets cold or wet. Also had to make a new 44t sprocket which took half a day.


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

Rain Wheel Caddy.


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

I been telling you guys for ages that I cant ride for peanuts but none of you believe me so now I got proof.
After taking only 1 second off my SMP PB yesterday I get fed up going slow so I ask Brad Swallow if he wants to do my last 2 races today.
Hes already doing SuperSport on a ZX6 and Formula OZ on a ZX10 so why not a third class to cool down with.
His first race he goes 2 seconds faster than me and finishes 4.5 seconds behind the leader but the bike needs taller gearing cause hes lighter and smaller.
So I go up 1 on the front sprocket to 15-44.
Second race, Im waiting outside his pit with the bike, hes just done both a SuperSport race and a Formula OZ race back to back, comes into the pit lane
jumps off his ZX10 while its still moving and slings a leg over the Ripper and takes off MotoGP style without saying a word or even lifting his visor. and makes
it down to pit exit before the 45 second window shuts. The race..you just have to see the video, He shoves it past the other guys in places you just cant go.
He gets fastest lap in the race and with 110hp (dyno'd) comes to within 0.2 seconds of the eFXC lap record that was set on Voltron last year with 230hp !!!!
Sets a new top speed for the bike of 217kmh and 5 seconds a lap faster than me with only 6 laps on the bike.
http://www.computime.com.au/meetings/2015/SWANN7/SWANN15_7_R27_RES.HTML

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M0v1yQ8HUfI


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

This is me up on the viewing deck just before I started jumping up and down. (Attachments) 


Shhh do not disturb sleeping electric bike riders.

Pit Action at eFXC by Tony Castley, on Flickr

Catavolts back with new water cooled Hub Motor.

eFXC 2015 Round 6 - Day 1 by Tony Castley, on Flickr

But A123 pack bloated some cells

Battery replacement for the Catavolt by Tony Castley, on Flickr

One thing you cant do with a gas bike is a 250kmh burnout...

Voltron Victory Burnout by Tony Castley, on Flickr

From the deck

eFXC 2015 Round 6 - Day 1 by Tony Castley, on Flickr


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

This track side live feed video is the best ive seen in 5 years of racing.
go to second screen down and ff to 5h 21m.

http://livestream.com/itvl/events/4482744


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

Mor awesome shots from Tony Castley
Brad Swallow on the Ripperton

Day 2 Round 6 eFXC 2015 by Tony Castley, 
on Flickr

Day 2 Round 6 eFXC 2015 by Tony Castley, on Flickr

Day 2 Round 6 eFXC 2015 by Tony Castley, on Flickr

Day 2 Round 6 eFXC 2015 by Tony Castley, on Flickr

Day 2 Round 6 eFXC 2015 by Tony Castley, on Flickr

Day 2 Round 6 eFXC 2015 by Tony Castley, on Flickr

Day 2 Round 6 eFXC 2015 by Tony Castley, on Flickr


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

These 2 lathe chucks is the difference in weight between me and Brad (32kg)


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

Heres trackside view of the last race of the season. video'd off my pc screen.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_VbE2JW5w7U


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## jeff mccabe (Feb 23, 2010)

Ripperton,

Being a machinist by trade, I can really relate !

Jeff





RIPPERTON said:


> These 2 lathe chucks is the difference in weight between me and Brad (32kg)


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

No surprise I wasnt having too much fun out there on my own bike.
I went through and mapped out all the suspension damping settings and they were way off. Watching the track side video and the rear facing video from Pottz's bike, I noticed only in T4 that my bike was bouncing its front end under cornering load. That corresponded with the fork damping, both compression and rebound being on their loosest settings  So I moved them to a base line setting of half way through the range. With the right tire pressure this made a noticable difference even at traffic speeds, smoother and more willing to hold an angle.
Then went to the Shock (Penske) The only setting that looked right was the compression, about half way through, but it felt harsh and made the bike scary in high speed turns like the rear tire wanted to glance off any bump and slide out. So I moved it to 3/4 to the loose side. Then the rebound was at its loosest setting so it got moved to half way through the range. Cant imaging what bad handling symptom that was producing.

Also replaced 1 cell in the first block (No 1) and a piece of grit lodged between it and the base plate and wore a hole in the pouch probably draining the electrolyte out of it and making it lossy.
A new set of tires and its ready to be tested before first round in March.


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

Watch at 45 seconds the front of my bike bounces through T4.
Also watch how loose the Varley rear end is. They had the same rear tire from Winton where Jason did a massive victory burnout.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nc961Zs_FIY


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

RIPPERTON said:


> These 2 lathe chucks is the difference in weight between me and Brad (32kg)


Correction, make that 38kg lighter. Just spoke with Brad and he is currently 72kg and ready to start on his first eFXC season.
He also has a 2016 Kawasaki ZX10 that has been dyno'd at 187hp that he will be racing in the Superbike series. But theres a catch in the form of an unknown. We dont know if race management will boot him up to A grade or not.
At the moment he is a B grader and thats ok for eFXC but there no A graders allowed.
Will be bringing my bike to SMP track for one of Brads ZX10 test sessions late Feb. This year looks like Awesome !


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

Brad did 2x 3 lap sessions at SMP this afternoon in sweltering heat.
He is certainly serious about tires, He gets good Bridgestone deals from a local supplier and we put a set of battlax VO2's that came off his ZX10 from yesterdays practice session on the Ripper and he brings his Nitrogen bottle over and fills both tires with the required pressure before wrapping the warmers on.
I put the tallest gearing on, 15:41 but I suspected that would be a bit tall so I made 2 new sprockets 42T and 43T.
Last year he raced with 15:44 and only got a 217kmh top speed. The 15:41 did 223kmh but then just to experiment I put a 42 on the rear wheel and it did 224kmh ??
The apparent increase could be just a discrepancy coming from a better exit speed and a later brake point but in any case it means we are still too tall so next time at SMP we will be going 1 step shorter with a 15:43.
We also began to wade through the suspension damping fog, Brad is good at describing what the bike is doing as far as suspension goes but I have to translate that into which way to click the knobs and which knobs to click.
As the year progresses Im sure the handling will improve.
Overall lap times were crap being a ride day there was lots of traffic.
Our first meeting is at Malalla in South Australia in May which is a long wait so we will try to fit in a few more test session.


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

I went for a test and tune ride day down at Wakefield but Brad had to work so I got to ride my new bike with its revised suspension and was blown away by how comfortable it is to ride now mostly because of the rear compression damping being looser. I gave the fork damping a few tweaks and got it to carve turns better, it felt like it was drifting wide.
The biggest and most exciting improvement was with Hall timing.
I advanced and retarded the timing this way and that and got it to do some pretty scary things.
If I advanced too far it would growl at low throttle but take off like a rocket at full throttle and the regen wouldnt work at all. Also bringing up the throttle at speed felt like it went into reverse until you got up to half throttle.
If I retarded too much it would have no power up top. I started thinking I would have to make a throttle controlled advance unit but then I just threw the timing in the middle somewhere and went out and it did everything perfectly and even clocked a new best top speed for Wakefield....206.5kmh. I usually only get 185kmh there.


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

Well Mugen went and stole my idea of putting the front sprocket behind the swingarm pivot so the motor would be as far back as possible making more room for battery.
Evil minds think alike...https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_QbEsDe4d9k


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## Karter2 (Nov 17, 2011)

Is that a reduction gbox that the drive sprocket is mounted on ?


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

Karter2 said:


> Is that a reduction gbox that the drive sprocket is mounted on ?


Id say so. Probably a Remy core so high reving.
So their motor would be even lower than a slow spinning Emrax with straight drive but CG is easily corrected in a road racer and shouldnt be too low.
If its a single reduction, they have the motor spinning backwards which will reduce tendency to wheelie which is exactly what racers want.
The torque reactions between rotor and motor frame are neutralized against torque reactions between sprocket and motor.


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## Ai! (May 9, 2014)

spinning backwards motor/antiwheelie - what an interesting idea!


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

Disastrous first ever Club race meeting on the Ripperton.
But a crucial first step towards better electric bike racing in Australia.
Victorian Motorcycle club Hartwell have been the first to put electric bikes on the club map, racing with petrol bikes.
Phillip Island put on some unusual perfect sunshine but the massive 4.5km MotoGP track proved too massive for the Ripperton. We did a 3 lap warmup which is about the same distance as our normal FX races but then I though I would try 4 laps in qualifying and just as I was coming out of turn 12 at the end of the 4th lap the bike lost power so I backed off and limped into the pits checking for white smoke from the pack but luckily it didnt catch on fire.
4.5km x 4laps = 18km plus about 1km getting back to the pits but my speedo reads 21.25km because the bike is over on an angle most of the time in those massive turns the wheels are turning faster.
The pack was very hot, block 9 had a meltdown and went to zero volts.
1 BMS wire melted on a busbar and disabled the BMS so I couldnt get a reading on the laptop. I had to pack up and go home.
I qualified 24th out of 29 riders.
http://www.computime.com.au/meetings/2016/HARTWELL3/HMCC16_3_Q05_FAS.HTML

Even scrutineering was a drama, they gave me a list of things on Friday evening that didnt comply so I went back to the hotel to channel Burt Munroe in a scene out of Worlds Fastest Indian, I had to plug the footpegs with chopped up bits of broom handle, fit a front sprocket cover made from Mitsubishi Express seat belt cover, fit valve caps, radiator cap lock wire and buy some regulation numbers.


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

The autopsy. 10 Lipo cells at zero volts. Have 20 spares so Im ok for Mallala.


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## galderdi (Nov 17, 2015)

Well done mate. Although we are in totally different sports we seem to be at similar points in the development cycle. Keep it up.


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

Nightmare race weekend at Mallala bar a few moments of glory.
Brad won the first race on Saturday morning in the wet by 38 seconds as Varley and Voltron didnt have wet tires. They did the 4 lap race on the glistening South Australian track with slicks !!!!!! and didnt crash.
Track dried up for the afternoon race which was one of the most exciting Ive ever seen. Tim Boujos (Voltron) and Brad Swallow (Ripperton) battling neck and neck to the finish with 0.05 seconds between them.
http://www.computime.com.au/meetings/2016/SWANN2/SWANN16_2_R12_RES.HTML
The polar opposite characteristics of the 2 bikes cancelled each other out.
Voltron would take off like a Tesla at the start of the back straight and Ripperton would out brake Voltron at the hairpin regaining the lead.
But then the shit hit the fan. With the settings all turned up to 100%, Rippertons battery was starting to feel the strain and began to pop cells.
Had to rebuild the pack replacing 1 cell block and a few busbar frames.
This took me from 2.30pm to 7 pm and miraculously, Saturday nights race was cancelled.
Sunday morning saw Voltron mysteriously cut out on lap one leaving Brad and Jason Morris on the Varley to proceed to the checkers. Jason not able to gain any ground until the last 3 turns when guess what, Rippertons pack blew up again, this time 3 cell blocks went to zero volts but Brad still won by 0.5 seconds.
http://www.computime.com.au/meetings/2016/SWANN2/SWANN16_2_R19_RES.HTML
This time the pack had too much damage and I had to pack up and go home missing out on the 2 Sunday afternoon races and at least 40 points.
Brad and I have dialled in the R1s suspension to perfection and he is feeling very confident on the bike.
Voltrons Chris Jones has started a GoFundMe page to get me $5k for a new battery pack.
https://www.gofundme.com/275frfch
I learnt a lot about LiPo cells over the weekend and have a designed a new busbar system and will now make a new 42s12p pack using the old 4Ah cells.
Will make a second identical pack if the funds allow.


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

I brought the Barina pack with me as a source of spare cells should something happen and all of its blocks were almost fully charged (4.1v).
When I pulled the damaged cell block out of the R1 pack after the race they were all down to 3.7v so I had to use a jumper cable to bridge the gap and charge the pack up before slotting in the new cell block from the Barina. You can see a busbar frame in the foreground that has been shattered by the electrolyte leaking from a cell.
I had to go way down the back of the paddock to find a decent power supply.
This is the shed where the transport truck dumps all the boxes.
I will make a video of Saturdays race as soon as its available.


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## galderdi (Nov 17, 2015)

Wow great write up. It is nice when these events go as smooth as silk. But I wouldn't want it that way 100% of the time. These sort of dramas remind you that it is motorsport and should be a challenge. So long as nobody is hurt the drama should be enjoyed.


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## Karter2 (Nov 17, 2011)

> I leart a lot about LiPo cells over the weekend and have a designed a new busbar system and will now make a new 42s12p pack using the old 4Ah cells.
> Will make a second identical pack if the funds allow.


 Do you have a good idea as to what caused these failures ?
Is it a cell choice problem, or a pack construction issue ?
What do you plan to alter to avoid the same problems in the new pack ?


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## jonescg (Nov 3, 2010)

Karter2 said:


> Do you have a good idea as to what caused these failures ?
> Is it a cell choice problem, or a pack construction issue ?
> What do you plan to alter to avoid the same problems in the new pack ?


The cells seem to be getting far hotter than they should be, given the power demands being made of them. I'd say the busbars aren't up to the task.

Though I'm not going to suggest how he should build his new pack - he is my competition after all


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

Karter2 said:


> Do you have a good idea as to what caused these failures ?
> Is it a cell choice problem, or a pack construction issue ?
> What do you plan to alter to avoid the same problems in the new pack ?


Partially to do with a certain lead wristed 19 year old who just happens to be able to ride at full throttle all the time, which is exactly what I want.
But also because Ive turned all the controller settings up to 100%.
During one of the rebuilds at the track I had the pack on a box and the front panel was off, I could feel the heat in the busbars and thought that was mainly because of high current but as I was working on the pack over a 2 hour period the busbars didnt cool down so it was obvious that the heat in the cells was being conducted out through the tab.... so I discovered a new way of cooling the cells down. Make massive finned bus bars and air cool them.
So thats what Im doing now.
Heres some gratifying ElectroBOOM.


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

Heres the latest single cell product range PDF from YGS
The 4Ah 55C cell is $10.50 USD. About $6500USD shipped for 520 cells. ($9000 AUD) 8^(


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## Karter2 (Nov 17, 2011)

So what does 100% full welly actually mean in terms of cell current ?
All that heat and swelling seems to suggest either massive discharge overload of some cells ( defective ?) or uneven load distribution across the pack.
What was the original DCIR of these cells ?....interesting to see if it has increased ?
Im sure you have posted all this data before but it is a huge thread to dig for test data


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

Karter2 said:


> So what does 100% full welly actually mean in terms of cell current ?
> All that heat and swelling seems to suggest either massive discharge overload of some cells ( defective ?) or uneven load distribution across the pack.
> What was the original DCIR of these cells ?....interesting to see if it has increased ?


The Kellys arnt pulling their rated 600A each, dont know why but it could be something like 600A total on the battery side.
The cells are still charging up to 4.2v so they are not sacked out yet.


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k2l2QQt02as
Race 2 on Saturday Afternoon.
The knockoff GoPro cut the video into 4 sections but the last one got corrupted. It had the last 20 meters of the 4 lap race where Tim Boujos on Voltron snuck past to win by 0.05 seconds.
Watch how fast Voltron gets past at the start of the back straight only to have Ripperton pass back under brakes.


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

Working on the new pack.
Thread tapping new busbar frames.
CNCing new busbar frames


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

Wanted to get the busbars copper plated but turned out too expensive at $18 each ($800). Could make them cheaper out of solid copper but then would be too heavy.
$3000 in the GoFundMe so far


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## jonescg (Nov 3, 2010)

Copper is still the superior conductor, even with its higher density. The same mass of copper would carry the current al the same. I'm pleased to see your new busbars are beefier than the old ones, as you would have seen some reasonable voltage drop across a hot piece of aluminium.


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## dedlast (Aug 17, 2013)

I know what you mean about the extra weight with solid copper. Where I work, we had some heat frames machined out of copper instead of the normal aluminum. It made a huge difference in the weight. But we were going for heat conduction in this case, not current. 

B


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

socket jig for center drilling the ends of the busframes.
The blocks will be mounted into the side frames by these threaded holes.
Had to drill a big hole in my drill press base plate to fit the frames in.
Very short blind hole that doesnt break through to the first clamp hole.
That would remove thread and it would strip. 378 M4 screws just for the blocks.


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## Karter2 (Nov 17, 2011)

no vice, no clamps ?.....bye bye drill bit !


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

Karter2 said:


> no vice, no clamps ?.....bye bye drill bit !


Well Ive drilled 60 bars so far and drill bit still in 1 piece.
Only change though is Im drilling through on the end hole into the last clamp hole. Blind holes are too hard to tap.
Other news is the Plettenburg Nova 150 is edging closer to production but will be about $18,000 AUD with 400A controller. 
Might have to make my own motor.


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

Drilling the blind holes wasnt a problem, as soon as I wanted to drill through into the other hole then it started to bight and I went for the vise.
New 12p pack will be only 30mm wider than the 10p cause Im no longer using the sides of the pack to blow air in and out. The cells will touch the side walls.
Block jig sets the frames 147mm apart so they will later fit into the hole pattern in the side walls. Means straightening out the tabs and recreasing them.
the finished block slides out like a mud brick.
Using the rusty old back wall off the previous case as a build platform, all the new 12p blocks slot in and bolt up.


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## Karter2 (Nov 17, 2011)

Hey Ripp',..are you watching the IOM TTs on Fox ?
With a bit of luck they should have some footage of the Zero TT race (from yesterday) on this evening.


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

Karter2 said:


> Hey Ripp',..are you watching the IOM TTs on Fox ?
> With a bit of luck they should have some footage of the Zero TT race (from yesterday) on this evening.


I dont have Fox so have to wait for YouTube.
Heres Ansty on the Mugen flyby
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nWHahZuAFSo


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## Karter2 (Nov 17, 2011)

Only a short intro to the Zero bikes and riders tonight, but full race review tomorrow Fox Sport 5 , 10 pm
Both McGuinnes and Anstey saying how much they really like riding the Electrics.


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

Karter2 said:


> Only a short intro to the Zero bikes and riders tonight, but full race review tomorrow Fox Sport 5 , 10 pm
> Both McGuinnes and Anstey saying how much they really like riding the Electrics.


Would love to know if my anti wheelie theory is right.


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

34 out of the 42 blocks in place and I ran out of bolts. M4x10 caps. need 588 in total no bloody wonder I ran out.


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## Mike Edwards (Jan 29, 2016)

RIPPERTON said:


> Would love to know if my anti wheelie theory is right.


Well as it is taken straight out of Tony Foale's book I should hope it is right!


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## Frank (Dec 6, 2008)

Can you post the specs on the new pack? Are you soldering the tabs (a la Jones) or clamping? I can't find any information on it although I'm sure it's here someplace in this monster thread!


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

Mike Edwards said:


> Well as it is taken straight out of Tony Foale's book I should hope it is right!


Never heard of Tony Foale but I just checked out his book.
Got any references to anti wheelie that he has made ?


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## dcb (Dec 5, 2009)

can you describe your anti-wheelie theory?

fyi:
http://www.tonyfoale.com/
" For example; CG height affects load transfer to the driven wheel as well as determining the tendency toward terminal wheelies. The height of the frontal aerodynamic centre of pressure also has a similar influence. "

so a low cg is less likely to flip backwards under acceleration I recon, but it also means you have to lean more in the turns iirc.


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## jonescg (Nov 3, 2010)

^^

Interesting. Voltron's handling improved massively by lowering the whole bike about 20 mm through the triples and the rear ride height. I don't know if a low CoG is necessarily 'good' but in this instance it certainly made it better.

It needs to be 'right' and we're always on the search for this location.

As for wheelies, a lower CoG will certainly help limit wheelies, but if it's too low you would push the front in corners and run wide.


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

Im talking about torque reactions between 
1) rotor and motor frame and 
2) sprocket and motor frame.
cancelling each other out

With the rotor spinning backwards offering resistance, the motor frame wants to turn forward.
The motor frame subsequently makes the chassis turn forward which produces a negative wheelie moment.

The sprocket on the other hand is turning forward being driven by a motor gear which is turning backward. The sprocket offering resistance makes the rotor gear want to walk around the sprocket gear in a backward direction subsequently turning the gearbox frame backward producing a positive wheelie moment.
The positive and negative cancel each other out leaving...
A) the thrust reaction of the swingarm pushing the bike forward along a vector that is below the CG of the bike causing a positive wheelie moment.
B) the front sprocket climbing up around the rear sprocket as the rear wheel offers resistance lifting the front of the swingarm causing a positive wheelie moment.
So Shinden Go has only A and B positive wheelie moments whereas
A single shaft electric motor like Voltron would see the rotor turning forward causing the motor frame to turn backward resulting in a positive wheelie moment plus A and B so Voltron would have 3 positive wheelie moments.
An ICE bike with transverse crankshaft also has the thrust reaction of its pistons pushing the backs of the cylinder walls caused by the conrods being on an angle during the power stroke and the crankshaft turning forward. This causes a positive wheelie moment. so in total, an ICE bike would have 3 positive wheelie moments.
The difference between 2PWMs and 3PWMs may not seem like much but a racer would notice it and could make 0.3 seconds a lap because it would allow the Shinden Go rider to apply more throttle on corner exits without having to back off to stop from looping out.


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## dcb (Dec 5, 2009)

Not sure what the forces are, but the rotor down torque will be limited by change in rear wheel speed (and will be centered on the motor).

interesting stuff by that foale guy though.

he looks at wheel and crank moment of inertia and cg, but then he says 
"The software automatically calculates when a terminal wheelie is imminent and limits the torque to the maximum usable."

like it (whatever it is) turns into a segway at some point 

http://tonyfoale.blogspot.com/

edit: napkin guess about 5 foot pounds of torque applied at the motor frame by accelerating the rotor, maybe 1.5 pounds of downforce on the rear wheel, if it takes the bike 7 seconds to get to 7000 rpm.


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

Finished the core of the pack, 175v of sheer grunt that I hope will not catch on fire.
Started cutting the side walls. The long groove up the middle is the water gallery for the fire extinguishing system.


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## riba2233 (Apr 29, 2015)

RIPPERTON said:


> Finished the core of the pack, 175v of sheer grunt that I *hope* will not catch on fire.




The key word is "hope" 


Nice work BTW!


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

Frank said:


> Can you post the specs on the new pack? Are you soldering the tabs (a la Jones) or clamping? I can't find any information on it although I'm sure it's here someplace in this monster thread!


same 174v but now 8.4kWh
42s12p using YGS 4Ah LiPo cells.
Tabs are clamped.


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## Frank (Dec 6, 2008)

Nice work! How much will that pack weigh?


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

7 kWh pack was 55kg plus another 84 cells at 100gr each is 8.4kg and extra acetal, aluminium and bolts.
There are 750 M4x10 bolts that weigh 1.32kg.
The 3D model shows about 63kg but could be 65kg


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## jonescg (Nov 3, 2010)

That's pretty good going. Voltron's pack is 6.2 kWh and weighs 55 kg, but I have about 1 kg of isolating contactors in there as well.

I hope to have a 9 or 10 kWh pack which weighs about the same as this pack by the start of the 2017 season. More laps is more important than putting in one fast lap; the aim is to race with the Pro-Twins for as many laps as them. 

Remember back in 2011 when the limiting factor was reliability and motors, whereas now it's gone back to batteries again. More energy required just to go faster, let alone do more laps!


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

jonescg said:


> That's pretty good going. Voltron's pack is 6.2 kWh and weighs 55 kg, but I have about 1 kg of isolating contactors in there as well.


You cant miss with LiPo they are so light.

The sides go on the pack with more M4 bolts. These are live and will need to be covered.
The thin strips of acetal are spacers that transmit core inertia under heavy braking to the front of the cradle. Front view.
Rear view. The clear strip on the side is a water jacket for the fire extinguisher system. There will be a socket at the top that will accept a simple garden hose.


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

The pack dropped straight in with the new lifting lugs, its 63kg now but didnt bust my spine although its noticeably heavier.
No longer quick release the same shape of hook is now bolted instead of sprung.
With a small 12v supply duct taped to the pack I obviously just had to go around the block once just to say I rode it. went ok but couldnt give it any throttle in the dark.
Took a total of 3 weeks to make the new 8.4kWh pack.
Next is to refit the Batrium BMS system and get it charging.


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## Frank (Dec 6, 2008)

Nice work - and good luck with this pack.


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

Awesome video from Andy Marsh just back from touring IOM on a Zero
thanks mate
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RMMfZAL5lPE


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## Frank (Dec 6, 2008)

Thanks for sharing. Do you have any thermistors or other way to measure pack temp under load? You said the cooling air would flow top-to-bottom but (wait for it) heat rises. You must feel the ram air effect will easily overcome this. Are you planning on a venturi effect at the bottom to create a partial vacuum to make it work?


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

There are 2 thermometer strips on the top cells, they sometimes get to over 60C.
With an average speed of 100kmh there will be enough air pressure to force air downwards. The flow will be reversed when the bike is in the pits with the jumpy castle fan blowing air on the radiator and drawing air from the ducts under the nose fairing.
The hot air gets dumped into the belly pan of the fairing where there is no air stream or curtain effect.
One more video from Andy Marsh.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IltU59Zm2Ko&feature=em-share_video_user


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

Will be issuing a design mandate to all racing bodies recommending all LiPo packs have a water injection fire extinguishing system incorporated into the battery design. For use with a common garden hose found in most paddocks.
Air duct connectors (50mm) riveted into the polycarb frame.
Pocketing didnt turn out too clean. Selftappers and more rivets.
Bottom up shot. 3 ducts will lead to underside of the nose cone.
Similar control deck and charge port as previous pack.


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

First run 31km alls well down in the engine room.


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

Track test down at SMP this afternoon went well for the battery at least.
It didnt get above 30C and went full power for 20km avg speed 114kmh.
Thats 5 laps of the GP circuit.
During the session the temp strip only showed 25C which is false because of air flow over the strip. After the bike is parked in the pits it settled up to 35C.
The bus bars are getting hot but I have to cut a hole in the acrylic cover so I can aim a laser thermometer in there. Cover the hole with a sticker.
In the pits at SMP
Now that I have beefed up the battery something else has broken.
Im going through T1 at about 200kmh and something let go in the motor almost locked up and slide out but the rear wheel kept turning and I managed to keep it upright. There was shorting and banging going on in there as I pulled over toward the outside of T1. I shut it down and pushed it through the grass to the tire wall, looked at the motor and there was all kinds of smoke and hissing coming from the motor. Windings are definitely open circuit.
1 scenario is the rotor frame broke a spoke and that and a magnet went into the stator ripping up the windings. Or the winding simply melted. Got a ride back to the pits in the recovery truck .
Have half pulled the motor out, will take some more pics tmrw. Ive got enough spares of everything to get it going for Willowbank.


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

Both rotors are good and still straight, no broken spokes. Amazingly only one stator melted and the other 3 are still insulated. Unfortunately the controller could be blown too. I was getting full battery voltage between B+ and the bike chassis whilst the blown motor was still connected to the controller. This made it a little tricky to disconnect the battery from the bike.
This is the other side of the same stator that somehow blew and contacted the frame of the motor.
Copper leaks.


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

Awesome news, the controller is ok.
Just rebuilt the blown motor, checked the other one, put them back in and tested the top motor only on its controller and it spun up fine.
Finish assembly tmrw and test. QLD is looking good.
The workshop (lab) looks like a bomb hit it, but managed to repaint the swingarm flouro orange while the motors were out.


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## kennybobby (Aug 10, 2012)

Did all the stator windings have dark discoloration from heat or just the shorted one? Wonder what temperature is required to char that magnet wire insulation/varnish?


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

kennybobby said:


> Did all the stator windings have dark discoloration from heat or just the shorted one? Wonder what temperature is required to char that magnet wire insulation/varnish?


Looks like all 3 phases went thermal but in the photo above the inner loops are not darkened only the outside ones.
Cant really say what caused the short. It was after a good 10 seconds continuous full throttle going down the main straight of SMP, I rolled of the throttle slowly at the 100m mark and tipped in to T1 at about 200kmh and as I got to the apex, went to throttle up and the bike lurched a bit and went dead so I shut it down and pulled over. The max speed log on the speedo read 218kmh which was in the corner as the rear wheel spins faster because its on an angle.
The max true top speed of the bike with this gearing is 212kmh in a straight line.
The other stators are not discolored at all so there is no real problem with current carrying.


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

Bummer weekend, another stator melted up in Queensland during qualifying, same one that I replaced. Brad didnt get a lap time in but there was so much smoke coming from around the battery area, he pulled over and got off the bike. He thought the battery was on fire so when the tender vehicle showed up, Brad grabbed a water extinguisher and promptly went about using my new water injection fire extinguisher system. No harm done really and found out that it works ie it distributed water all through the pack.
Just have to dry it out now, and replace the stator. Next efxc round is in SMP but theres a club race at Wakefield before that.
Voltron is flying now with its wider rear wheel and knocked about 2 seconds off the previous lap record.


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## kennybobby (Aug 10, 2012)

Sorry to hear, we feel bad for ya--do you think it is a thermal issue or electrical short?


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

kennybobby said:


> Sorry to hear, we feel bad for ya--do you think it is a thermal issue or electrical short?


This was an older version stator and may have been a little worn in some areas but it didnt show any grounding when I put the ohm meter on it.
I had a new version, but it had a slightly larger outer diameter and wouldnt fit inside the rotor recess. Its like they wound and extra revolution of steel lamination and that made it 1.5mm bigger than the older stators.
Now I have to grind or cut that new stator down so it fits into the rotor.


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## kennybobby (Aug 10, 2012)

A regular multimeter won't reveal insulation breakdown--i'd loan you my handheld megger (insulation tester) if you were in the neighborhood. Fluke and others make them and you could probably find a used one for a reasonable price.

They are easy to calibrate--just use a known high resistor, e.g. 1, 5 or 10 MegOhm, and they are a tool to check the magnet wire insulation phase to phase and phase to ground at high voltages like 250, 500 or 1000.


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

I could probably get one of those down here, Ive used them before.

See if they show the electric bikes this afternoon at Willowbank.
http://www.computime.com.au/

Apparently Im not the only one who had an explosion.
This bike is a hand built work of art that just happens to also be very fast.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=momHd-W6IWg


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

New electric bike lap record at QLD is over 3.5 seconds faster than 2015.
http://www.computime.com.au/meetings/2016/SWANN3/SWANN16_3_R35_RES.HTML
Unfortunately it wasnt my bike


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

Live feed trackside video with interview.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8MHn3Cm50Lg


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

OK were getting serious now, Im crowd funding my next bike with a $50.000USD GoFundMe campaign. I would be very appreciative if you could all spread this link on your facebook pages and maybe even donate a few dollars. Can only recieve donations in US dollars because of the exchange rate
Cheers Danny
GoFundMe campaign cancelled.


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

I cancelled the GoFundMe campaign because they couldnt allow donations to be put into my PayPal account.
So if there are any geniuses out there who would like to fund my next SuperBike build they can donate to my PayPal account in US$
Access is via email,
[email protected]
Thanks in advance.
Heres the pledge I wrote in GoFundMe



> Danny Ripperton is a Professional Mechanical Designer specializing in Electric vehicle design.
> Ive raced the same electric R1 in Australia for 6 years now but its time to go to the next level.
> I need donations in US$ to buy high performance components from all over the world, like EMRAX Motor, Rinehart Controller, YGS Lithium Polymer cells and an Aprilia RSV4 Factory rolling chassis.
> I would like to have the new bike ready to race for next years season. I have learnt so much over the last 6 years I know just how to build the new bike and get it built fast.
> This new bike will give me the credibility to become an Australian Elon Musk ! Now dont you think we need more Elons in the world ?


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

Had a full day of test sessions yesterday at a Wakefield Park ride day and nothing blew up. Track was very cold and the rear wheel was out of balance so speed was limited to 180kmh.
The new pack is doing well and Im getting about 20 -22km range at race pace.
I did 37km in one charge at traffic speed the other day untill the first cell got down to about 3.3v and it took 1 hour and 40 minutes to charge with the 4kW Elcon. Thats 1.66 hours at 4kW equals 6.64kWh. So theres 1.76kWh of un usable energy in there due to uneven discharge of cells.
With the new pack there is longer range and this means other faults start showing up like magnet fatigue. There is noticable power fade after about 16km.
The magnets being in between the 2 stators means both sides of the magnets are being driven and both sides are being heated and theres not much cooling. Having had a close look at a new Emrax 228 recently Ive figured out its architecture. Its axial gap and there are 2 stators facing outward mounted on a central cooling block and 2 sets of magnets outside the stators mounted in the aluminium rotor so only one side of the magnet is driven and heated and the other mounted side of the magnet allows cooling through the aluminium rotor.
I also have the opportunity to enter in a club race this weekend as electric bikes have been given a class that can be run amongst gas bikes.
This is a big step forward as racing will become cheaper like $380 compared to $800.
For starters we will be in with 400cc 4 cylinder 4 strokes 125cc 2 strokes and super motords ect.


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## jonescg (Nov 3, 2010)

Great to see the bike behaving itself Danny.
You would probably be seeing some degree of pack sag after 16 km of race pace - Voltron shows it after 2 laps of QR; if you look at the onboard video I put up the pack sags a bit on the first lap, but worse on the second.

How are your times at Wakefield now?

So you're able to race in the MA club rounds then? That's great. We've always had the option of doing that with MCRCWA, but the bike was always over east when the rounds were on! Not next year though. 

The FX series was getting to be an exercise in insanity - where you do the same thing over and over expecting a different result. We're always getting given the twilight races when nobody was there to watch, and then Terry wonders why there's no interest in the electrics 

Team Voltron is staying in the West for 2017 to develop the bike and keep working on the second machine. I'm still not sure where I'll be next year, but probably not making any major re-locations for another year or two.


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

jonescg said:


> Great to see the bike behaving itself Danny.
> You would probably be seeing some degree of pack sag after 16 km of race pace - Voltron shows it after 2 laps of QR; if you look at the onboard video I put up the pack sags a bit on the first lap, but worse on the second.
> 
> How are your times at Wakefield now?
> ...


What do you mean by "pack sag". Is that voltage drop under load or simply the pack voltage reducing due to energy consumption.
I was talking about this with the StGeorge club people and thought that a 700v pack will see more power drop due to the pack voltage dropping from 700v to 550v, ie with a 300A controller for example the bike would have 168kW at the start of the race and 132kW at the end so a 36kW drop in power.
But a 400v 450A system would go from 144kW to 115kW (29kW drop).

Talking with the StGeorge people I found out the real reasons behind the FX MA split and...well lets say it good to hear both sides of the story


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## jonescg (Nov 3, 2010)

Yes, the latter. As the battery drains down you will see a lower operating voltage. This is just chemistry, so the power difference shouldn't depend on voltage.
MA have their problems but so does Terry. If we can keep doing what we want to do for half the costs, I'm in.


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## tylerwatts (Feb 9, 2012)

Hi Rip

I like the Emrax motor layout, naturally cooling the magnets. Could you put 2 thinner magnet sets in your rotor with a CF vaned impellor type centre to pull cool air through the core and out over the magnets? Not sure that describes it well. Basically like sandwiching an impellor rotor between the magnets.

Also, what about a ball back array, I understand this gives an excellent magnetic field when using single sided rotor like the Emrax as the flux focuses on one side of the rotor, ie against the stator's magnetic field.

Food for thought, I'm sure you have gone over many iterations of design for your motor. It may be more effective to engineer tour motor from a blank design also rather than the optimised version you have of the simple Mars motor. There must be lots of room for improvement. Or stick 2 Emrax motors in there...

Cheers

Tyler


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

tylerwatts said:


> Also, what about a ball back array, I understand this gives an excellent magnetic field ...


You mean halbach array?


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

After 6 years and over 6000 racing kilometres, the Ripperton R1 has had its first racing crash. Brad is ok but he totalled a set of brand new leathers and a helmet. The crash is on live feed video but havnt seen it yet. Seems like a low side in T3 but Brad flew all the way to the tire wall with a thud.
The bike is a bit rashed but is fixable.
Brads dad is looking around for a new fibreglass fairing.
Heres some shots.


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

Too bad. Glad your pilot is o.k. Shit happens.


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

I dont know anyone whose gone 6 years without a crash.
video
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9GxD3QRxZIY


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## kennybobby (Aug 10, 2012)

That is a good long run to race without tossing it--saves wear and tear on the old body too.

It looked like Brad may have gotten tossed over the high side, hope he is doing okay.

Did your pack survive intact.

What pack and motor was Dan Pott. riding in the 2015 SMP race whereby he could pass Brad on the front straight so strongly--Brad ate him up in the corners, but that top end speed was unbelievable there at the finish. And great finale with the awesome victory burnout.


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

Hes a bit bruised, nothing broken.
The next race afterwards was his last Superbike race of the weekend and as it turned out was the only race where his ZX10 ran the whole 7 laps. He was hoping it would cut out.
See the second pic down theres a long crack in the acetal side wall from the impact of the bike hitting the ground.
Will have to make a new one.
Voltron has a EVO AF140 and a Rinehart PM150Z running 700v. Only 6kWh Lipo.
Has dyno'd at 230hp.
With double the horse power Votron is only 0.07 seconds faster than the Ripperton at Adelaide's Mallala circuit.
http://www.computime.com.au/meetings/2016/SWANN2/SWANN16_2_R12_RES.HTML


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## piotrsko (Dec 9, 2007)

For some obscure reason you and crew were on a section of the local PBS news. I recognized the bike, but was so stunned that I didn't note details. Congrats?

However, according to Yankee custom, if I ever meet face to face, you now owe me an icecream.


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## Frank (Dec 6, 2008)

Too bad, I'm glad he is okay and that bike can be fixed.


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

This is the worst piece of damage. The pack will need a new side wall.
Most of the rest of the damage is fixed. Getting a new tank cover fiberglassed up. Theres some good club races coming up soon so hope to have it running again by then.


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xsXrzunguWc
Check out this Chevy Bolt vid at 1m 17 seconds.
The cells look exactly like my Lipo cells the way the tabs offset together.


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

Heres a YGS LiPo cell breakdown.
34 foils of copper coated in black stuff on the negative tab.
Interwoven with 34 foils of aluminium coated in black stuff attached to the positive tab. At least I think its aluminium only because I dont know what lithium looks or feels like. I might just email these shots off to YGS and quiz them.
Then theres the plastic sheet that is also interwoven between each foil accross the cell.


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

YGS say the positive foil is a LiCo material. ??
Lithium Cobalt ?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lithium_cobalt_oxide


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

That's probably not the foil, but the coating on the foil. Foil is probably aluminum.


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

Tried to weld up the old rad but only loosened the soldered tubes so had to bin it.
Got this earlier GSXR1000 rad from EBay for $100.
New fairing went on quickly but have trimmed about 40% off it.


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## jonescg (Nov 3, 2010)

The copper foils are coated in graphite and binder which is designed to intercalate the lithium ions during charge. During discharge the ions move back to the LiCoO2 coating in the aluminium foils. I recycled a stack of LiPo cells by cutting them optn and separating the copper and ally. You need to soak the foils in a drum of N-methyl-pyrrolidone to remove the active material. The resulting solution can be decanted, the black stuff dissolved in HCl and filtered, then re-precipitate the Co(OH)2 with NaOH. You can use LiOH if you wanted so that you can recover the lithium salts, but lithium salts are cheap.

*** 

Glad the repairs are coming along well. Unfortunately Tim broke his foot at the Newcastle Supermoto event and it's still in a moon boot. So for Queensland this month we'll have Thyron Van Vurren (Taz) riding Voltron. 

Fortunately we're in amongst the gas bikes again, so spectators will get the chance to see how the bikes compare. See you in Queensland!


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

jonescg said:


> The copper foils are coated in graphite and binder which is designed to intercalate the lithium ions during charge. During discharge the ions move back to the LiCoO2 coating in the aluminium foils. I recycled a stack of LiPo cells by cutting them optn and separating the copper and ally. You need to soak the foils in a drum of N-methyl-pyrrolidone to remove the active material. The resulting solution can be decanted, the black stuff dissolved in HCl and filtered, then re-precipitate the Co(OH)2 with NaOH. You can use LiOH if you wanted so that you can recover the lithium salts, but lithium salts are cheap.***
> 
> Glad the repairs are coming along well. Unfortunately Tim broke his foot at the Newcastle Supermoto event and it's still in a moon boot. So for Queensland this month we'll have Thyron Van Vurren (Taz) riding Voltron.
> 
> Fortunately we're in amongst the gas bikes again, so spectators will get the chance to see how the bikes compare. See you in Queensland!


F&#% off, when did you grow 20 IQ points ?
Is the active material toxic or can you just rip pouches open and deliver foils to scrap metal as is.
Doesnt look good for me going to QLD, the novelty has worn off and Im going to fix my credit card.


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## jonescg (Nov 3, 2010)

I was just born that way 

The material isn't toxic as such, but the metal recycler will take issue with 20% of the mass being something other than copper. You can alternatively burn it off (it's mainly carbon) but it does make a bit of a mess.

So if you're not coming to Qld it will be another sole electric bike in amongst it... I figure I might as well keep it entered since the bike is there and I will be travelling across for the weekend anyway.

They probably won't bother bringing Tony up for the weekend either. It certainly seems like it's time to call it. Like I've been saying, I'l sit out for all of 2017 while I work on improvements and upgrades, and we'll see what 2018 brings.


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

So last minute decision to go up to QLD on Friday and race, brought on by me getting a new job on Thursday.
Finished 4 out of 6 races then this happened, main drive shaft fatigued and broke off. It didnt lock up, just kept rolling. Was caused by the support block moving and allowing the shaft to bend a little.


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## kennybobby (Aug 10, 2012)

Lucky it didn't throw you off.

Do you suppose there was a stress fracture due to the machining of that step/groove around the circumference of the shaft? At least it looks like a groove where the diameter steps down--but what would be the purpose.

The interior has that worn shiny look of fatique and then the dark ring around that was the last piece to let go? Maybe an initial internal defect that grew over time and with the bending load...?

It could also have been stressed by Brad's incident at the track--lots of gravel in that photo up-thread.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

I'd think the crack would start at the outside, possibly from the stress riser created by the step down/groove.


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## kennybobby (Aug 10, 2012)

That was my initial thought too, but if it were then the shiny fatigue wear would have shown around the perimeter with the final sharp clean fracture zone at the interior--just opposite of what it appears. Quite a puzzle...


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## piotrsko (Dec 9, 2007)

I'm no great engineer but I'll bet you used a flat tip tool with no radius to machine the groove and then didn't bake it for a while.


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

piotrsko said:


> I'm no great engineer but I'll bet you used a flat tip tool with no radius to machine the groove and then didn't bake it for a while.


Yes the circlip groove was square edged but there was an outrigger bearing supporting all radial load. That shaft has been in there since 2012 and only broke because a gap developped between its bearings and support block. Without the support block it would have broken in 1 race meeting even without a circlip groove. It was made from 7075T6 aircraft alloy.

Brad now leads the points score by 20 points. Theres 5 races at SMP on the 16th 17th of December so if Tim shows up to ride Voltron, Brad can come second in every race and still win CShip by 5 points. So onus is on me to make sure the bike can do 5 races.
Its all in the hands of the race Gods now.


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## jonescg (Nov 3, 2010)

And despite having only one bike, second and third place will go to a Voltron


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## jonescg (Nov 3, 2010)

Also, you might want to check this out:
http://www.fxsuperbikes.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2016/02/2016-Swann-Series-V4-24.4.pdf

Section 22.1 - "A competitor must complete 75% of the race distance and receive the checked flag while crossing the finishing line on track. Pit Lane
in this situation is not considered on track."

Not that it matters, but I'd say you're down another 22 points.


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

jonescg said:


> And despite having only one bike, second and third place will go to a Voltron


lol, cause youve got 2 riders and they both beat Varley 
TAZ is 2 points behind Jason.
http://www.computime.com.au/meetings/2016/SWANN5/SWANN16_5_SWANN_eFXC_SERPTS.HTML

But the points tally has been updated and Brad is in front by 20 points as Ive calculated and you are going to let sleeping dogs lie arnt you Chris.
Hows Tims foot ????
Seriously I dont know how your bike goes as fast as it does Chris. Keep working on it mate.
Everybody check out this holeshot vid.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ncWQ6TsZNcs


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## jonescg (Nov 3, 2010)

Unfortunately his foot won't be healed in time for Sydney (surgery required about then) so Taz will be riding again in Sydney.

And pulling a Bradbury is a legitimate way to win a series


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

jonescg said:


> Unfortunately his foot won't be healed in time for Sydney (surgery required about then) so Taz will be riding again in Sydney.
> 
> And pulling a Bradbury is a legitimate way to win a series


Damn I was really hoping for it to be up in the air. Hope Tims foot heals ok.
My bike has to finish second in 2 out of the 5 races for Brad to win title.


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=soco8dTIeAY
Cool video from SBS.

Got a new job drafting at a laser cutters in Western Sydney (Laser Wizard) and Varley Group are one of our clients.


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

New design of outrigger bearing, this one wont go loose.
If you cant buy M10x1.25 countersunk bolts, you have to make them.
new main shaft in 7075T6.


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

So we should be good to go for the last round at SMP but theres some bad news, The front Dymag has a crack in it and has to be decommissioned.
They are 11 years old and have had 6 years of racing on them so they had a reasonable run.


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## jonescg (Nov 3, 2010)

That outrigger bearing plate looks much stronger. I plan on doing a similar thing with Voltron's motorplate this summer - Hopefully take a bit of weight out of the LHS plate while incorporating an outrigger as part of the aluminium. The steel plate is working but surely a machined ally plate will work as well.

We send Voltron to Sydney on the 12th, and Taz and I will fly in Thursday night. We need a lift to the track each morning though - Can't afford a hire car this time around  Hopefully Malcolm can help us out.

Edit - good thing you spotted that crack :O


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## piotrsko (Dec 9, 2007)

If you're bound and determined to use 7075 you may think about baking it in a 350f oven for a couple of hours to stress relieve it.


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

Brad Swallow wins the 2016 eFXC electric race championship on board the Ripperton R1.
Here in the interview area after the final race this Saturday afternoon.
After 6 years and 6,250 racing kilometres the Ripperton R1 will be given an easy life from now on. I will try to fix the crack in the Dymag carbon wheel and do a few club races on it myself or pull out all the parts that still work and build a kart or something, not yet decided.


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## Frank (Dec 6, 2008)

Congratulations! And good catch on the wheel crack: that could have been disastrous.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Wow, the end of an era. 6 years of Ripperton updates.


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## jonescg (Nov 3, 2010)

Yeah good effort Brad and Danny. Just goes to show - you need the same rider all year if you want to accumulate lots of points  Tim, Voltron's rider for the first two rounds broke his foot in a Supermotard event so we got Taz to finish the series. We skipped a whole round too, so that set us back a bit.

Voltron will be bowing out of the FX series for 2017 too - it's costing us about $10k a year and that's money we could be pouring into development of the bikes. After the Queensland round where we were racing against petrol bikes, we thought we might have finally made it to the mainstream - the video stream spent heaps of time covering the electric bike ripping up the field, but then as we get to Sydney for the last round we learned at the last minute that we have our own two-bike race at the start and very end of the day's proceedings. Precisely when nobody is watching. So we're done with FX. Local racing from now on - at least we're allowed to race in club 1000 and collect points.

Hope your new job works out for you Danny - we want to race you again in 2018!

Chris


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

Yeah but TAZ came from nowhere in the points. He only did 2 rounds but it wasnt till the end of the second last race on Saturday that we knew Brad won the title.
TAZ scored big in QLD with 6 race wins while I was driving home with a snapped drive shaft. Just lucky the Ripperton didnt blow up all weekend at SMP.
It was raining on Friday so I found Voltron some free used rain tires cause I couldnt bear to see it go into the gravel. So first race Friday Voltron won even though TAZ was following Brad around for all but the last turn. It was his first time at SMP. But then as the track didnt really dry out by the afternoon we both left our wets on and then we found out how good those freebees were in the half dry track, they were shagged. Brad managed to push his wets more than TAZ could and TAZ had to back off. Not the first race the Ripperton has won in the wet. I may have saved Voltrons ass but I cost TAZ a victory.
It was a strange season where Brad had to come last in every race in the later half of the season to win the title and Voltron got both 2nd and 3rd place in the championship with 2 different riders, Varley coming 4th.
Heres the seasons points chart.
http://www.computime.com.au/meetings/2016/SWANN6/SWANN16_6_SWANN_eFXC_SERPTS.HTML


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## jonescg (Nov 3, 2010)




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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_VPSvWBBmcY
University of Nottingham
280kg 380hp but they will have detuned it to 200hp.
Probably unridable even in an IOM situation.
Put it on a track and it would fail miserably.


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## Mike Edwards (Jan 29, 2016)

RIPPERTON said:


> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_VPSvWBBmcY
> University of Nottingham
> 280kg 380hp but they will have detuned it to 200hp.
> Probably unridable even in an IOM situation.
> Put it on a track and it would fail miserably.


In what guise would it fail miserably? Aside from a podium in the IOM TT Zero race and two time European Moto E championship wins?


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

Mike Edwards said:


> In what guise would it fail miserably? Aside from a podium in the IOM TT Zero race and two time European Moto E championship wins?


In the Moto E races it was up against Zongshens which have 2 agnis DC motors.
At 280 kg it would get its ass handed to it on a track as its cornering speeds would be embarrassing.
Do you know what hp settings it actually had during the IOM and the Moto E.


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## jonescg (Nov 3, 2010)

About 200 hp for MotoE. It's a very capable bike. The reason it was so heavy was for the IOM circuit, but they used a smaller battery for the MotoE circuits..

The dual Agni bikes were almost being lapped by Jeremiah and Daly.


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## Mike Edwards (Jan 29, 2016)

jonescg said:


> About 200 hp for MotoE. It's a very capable bike. The reason it was so heavy was for the IOM circuit, but they used a smaller battery for the MotoE circuits..
> 
> The dual Agni bikes were almost being lapped by Jeremiah and Daly.


The Agni powered bikes had no answer and at least one was lapped at almost every race this year and the year before.

The power was would down to around 200 hp, as Chris says, for the TT to ensure it finished the course. For Moto E they experimented a lot as part of the development of their own inverter boards.


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## Fusion8r (Feb 7, 2016)

Rip,
I know you are geared for high speed, but are you keeping your motors under 5000 RPM?
John says the rotors pass a 8000 RPM burst test but he still recommends no more than 5k.
Did you change anything to make them able to handle more than that? 
I just got my project on the road and it is not as quick from a start as I'd like. 
So I plan on lowering the ratio but also increasing my total volts to bring back the top speed.
Just curious if you run yours over 5k with any trouble.
Thanks


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

I make my own. 5800rpm


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

Ripperton Electric SuperBike still going strong last weekend down at Wakefield Park where it all began 6 years ago.
Didnt have to put a spanner on it. Pack could do with a balance but did 3 sessions no probs.
Thanks to my Brazilian pit crew Bruno for the video.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ueIvGExLjJo&feature=youtu.be


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## galderdi (Nov 17, 2015)

Rip, Looks like all is going well. Well done!

Any chance you know what the bike currently weighs in race trim? (Including a full tank of juice of course!!!  )

Oh and when do you think you'll get it back to QLD raceway? Next time you are up here I will pull out all stops to come and check it out.


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

galderdi said:


> Rip, Looks like all is going well. Well done!
> 
> Any chance you know what the bike currently weighs in race trim? (Including a full tank of juice of course!!!  )
> 
> Oh and when do you think you'll get it back to QLD raceway? Next time you are up here I will pull out all stops to come and check it out.


185kg with carbon wheels.
The front one recently developed a delamination and has been decommissioned so it now has the standard Yamaha alloy wheels. havnt reweighed it with those.
Dont think Ill be coming up to QLD anytime soon, as not racing anymore.


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## galderdi (Nov 17, 2015)

OK thanks, Sorry to hear that. But hopefully I'll get to see it one day.


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

Heres a pulldown of an air cooled Emrax motor.
Still doesnt show everything but got a much better idea of how they are made.
http://build-its-inprogress.blogspot.com.au/2017/05/emrax-motor-teardown.html?m=1


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vdKDOfXBRMM&t=406s
Heres an example of the "viral" phenomenon.
Viral videos arnt accidents they are strategically propelled
via multiple social media platforms. Also the content has to have a certain
gawkyness or something to complain about. Tubers love to complain.
A Korean riding an imaginary horse is like EEEEEWWWWW but everybody clicks on it.
120k views in 2 weeks might not sound like viral to most people
but it is if compared to the fact that if I put this video on my channel, it would have about 150 views by now. Like the video posted above was made the same day and has 50 views. The fact that Im not on FaceBook also has something to do with it.
To the simple mind Bruno comes across as an annoying git who cant shut up but thats his genius. Theres something deliberate about his angle. Hes actually pretty clever and can understand most technical things about EV's. He certainly doesnt talk like that off video.


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## Mini-mayhem (Apr 27, 2015)

Hey Rip,

Is there any Electric racing planned in Australia for 2018? 

Cheers Man


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

Nope. Although everything is set up at the Club level so we could just start up again as soon as we have new bikes.
Im still dreaming about my next level race bike.
Making the kart and Enduro bike should keep me occupied for a while.
Recently took the R1 down to Devonport Tasmania for the AEVA AGM.
Had a display in the park and did a short impromptu race on the grass with a stealth.


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## Lesa J. churchill (Nov 16, 2017)

Yeah these all are the first priority to make an electric track bike. But make sure the product you are using should be high quality and branded.


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## Narcotus (Dec 5, 2017)

Hey i absolutely love your project!
i'm thinking about building my own bike completly from scratch for several years now and finally could have the budget.
I have one year experience in working with carbonfiber as a hobby now
The by far biggest problem i run into at the moment is the Motor and controler. I dont feel comfortable using the stock motors with 2 or more kilogram per kw. 
I saw the picture of your stripped Motors and that your video says your bike has 210kw with just those 2 Motors - is that right? Just because of the high amps you put through them?
Do you think someone with high motivation and experience in mechanical engineering could do that too? (myself) Would you be down to make a short video on how to do this and what to focus on while doing so? You cant imagine how awesome that would be cause i could finally get really close into doing this project. Not looking into 210 kw. 150kw would be awesome already (driving a RC8 for some years now)

Greets from germany and again: FCKING AWESOME JOB MATE


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

Hi Narcotus.
You will need at least $40k to make a race bike.
You wont need any carbon fibre.
Use a Rinehart PM100DXR and an Emrax 268 Medium LC and about 8kWh of LiPo. 94s 395v. 130kW
THAT 210kW video isnt mine, It was made by a guy who did his own maths.
I hope thats not the only Ripperton video that you have seen.
Check out my vids.
https://www.youtube.com/user/RIPPERTON
My bike probably only sees 500A and has 115hp.


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

The Ripperton Electric race bike is now temporarily a museum piece.
I have loaned it to the Australian National Motorcycle Museum in Nabiac NSW.
It is being displayed next to a bunch of other race bikes.
I will go get it in November and take it for a track day.


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## tylerwatts (Feb 9, 2012)

Very cool! Shame it's naked... But I realise why


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## psych0hans (Oct 21, 2014)

Hi @ripperton, I’m going to start work on a 100mph track bike some time this month. I’m starting with a KTM Duke rolling chassis and taking it from there. My goal is 100mph top speed and maybe 25miles of range. It only needs to do 1-2 sessions of 30mins each. Can you please give me an idea of how much this should cost? Also, which motor would you recommend? Looking for something cheap, hopefully.


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## MattsAwesomeStuff (Aug 10, 2017)

psych0hans - Start your own thread for your own project, don't hijack threads that are about other projects with longer conversations. That way people can read about his project in his thread and your project in your thread.


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## psych0hans (Oct 21, 2014)

MattsAwesomeStuff said:


> psych0hans - Start your own thread for your own project, don't hijack threads that are about other projects with longer conversations. That way people can read about his project in his thread and your project in your thread.


I will, once I have something more substantial than a pipe dream.


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

Looooooong time....
Had to cannibalise the R1 battery today to get some cells to complete the Kart packs. Get rid of that busbar.
As I was pilfering cells out of the R1 pack I realised it should come apart anyway and be rebuilt in aluminium as the acetal that I have long favoured is now deemed not appropriate or too fragile so I will devise a smaller battery configuration and case it in aluminium or maybe even make more kart packs to fit in. It should take 4 of them.


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## Morlurne (May 27, 2019)

Hello. I previously had an electric bike, but recently I made a choice in the direction of an electric scooter, it is very convenient to use in large cities. Personally, I travel my way to work and back on an electric scooter, which is convenient for me since the scooter folds compactly and does not pollute the environment. My lyubimets
this is swagtron city SG5 https://whatever-tech.com/best-electric-folding-scooter-reviews.


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## Abhishek e (Aug 14, 2019)

Hello 
I am trying to make a brushless motor for high speed can you just provide me some calculations for selecting wire gauge and how many poles should be there in the motor


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