# Controller Kelly 24-144V 500A Programmable with Regen



## [email protected] (Jan 24, 2008)

I looked at that just last night. I just bought an 84v controller from them about a month ago. So far it has been working flawlessly. I wish I would have known about this new controller. I would have gladly paid $400 more for this one. I haven't been able to find it even mentioned on the www.kellycontroller.com site at all though. It seems like a great price too.


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## Mastiff (Jan 11, 2008)

http://www.kellycontroller.com/mot/High-Voltage-DC-Motor-Controller.html

Table shows the bottom one has Regen.


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## the slashmaster (Feb 24, 2008)

I just noticed it says 
"144V regen model: has a max operating voltage is 180V." Just what does this mean? SInce it is 144 volts I thought that meant you can only use twelve 12 volt batteries. But you can use more than that? Does it mean you can have almost 180 volts worth of batteries but it will only give 144 to the motor?


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## ngrimm (Oct 19, 2007)

I noticed you have to select "high voltage" to find it. Also the price I am seeing there is $899 for 144v non-regen and $999 for 144v regen. Another thing I saw is that the notes say it requires 8-35v control supply. Starting to sound affordable if they are any good. http://www.kellycontroller.com/mot/High-Voltage-DC-Motor-Controller.html


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## 3dplane (Feb 27, 2008)

the slashmaster! Max operating voltage 180v what does it mean? I think they allow the peak voltage of the "just off the charger" battery pack.I can imagine a 144v pack right off the charger being 160+V so it will handle that "surface charge" but it is designed to take punishment from a nominal 144v pack.Thats my best guess anyway Barna.


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## Mastiff (Jan 11, 2008)

Batteries have what's called a "Nominal" voltage.

When batteries are discharged this voltage can drop, when they're charged to their maximum this voltage can increase.

Freshly charged 12 volt Lead-Acid batteries will be higher than 12 volts without a load on them.

If each of your 12 batteries in a 144 volt system where actually at 12.5 volts then your total pack voltage would be 150 volts.

With different battery chemistries the voltage differences can be larger, so controller manufacturers have to compensate for this.


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## ww321q (Mar 28, 2008)

the gel cells I got after sitting about a year still read 13.05 I think it was . That would be over 156v . I would agree that the 180v is a safety margin . I've been looking at the Kelly controllers to . If I don't build one I'm sure that would be a good choice . ...J.W.


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## xrotaryguy (Jul 26, 2007)

Oh no, it has a maximum operating temperature of 122 degrees F. Phoenix's record high is 123 F. I guess I'll need air conditioning to keep it cool


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## 3dplane (Feb 27, 2008)

Xrotary! I think thats FULL POWER operating temp and then it says the min and max operating temp range(non full power)Its in celsius but i think that's what they mean.Barna


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## no3rdseat (Oct 16, 2007)

I just ordered the Kelly 144V 500A with regen controller. I'll let folks know how it works when I get it installed. (don't hold your breath) 

Rick Stewart


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## ElectricS10 (Mar 20, 2008)

Help me out here. How does a controller like this scavenge and regenerate power?


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## mattW (Sep 14, 2007)

It depends on the motor. With a permanent magnet motor, the controller reverses the terminals to the motor when you need to brake. The magnets in the motor cause it to act like a generator, sending current the other way through the wires to recharge the batteries. With a series motor the controller has to carefully feed current into the coils so that their magnetic field induces current in the other direction as with the first method. This is tricky since the coils for the stator (bit that stays still) and the rotor (spinning part) are wired in series (hence 'series motor') so you have to energise the stator coils to get any current back. But clever controllers can do it.


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## saab96 (Mar 19, 2008)

But I've read that the advancing of the brushes necessary for forklift series DC motors on EVs will cause the motors to die an early death if you try to regen with them.


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## no3rdseat (Oct 16, 2007)

I got my new Kelly Controller today. 

Not happy.

The end cap on the side with the connections was loose as is shown below in the pictures:

















I'm currently shooting them an e-mail to see how they plan to make this right. I'll let the list know how it goes. They've been very good so far and I know things happen to products, especially when shipped from China. Wish me luck...


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## Guest (Apr 9, 2008)

You should be just fine. Take off the screws and put the side plate back on and screw it down again. Make sure they know first and that it's ok with them for you to do that without messing up the warranty. They have been very good and kind to me. I should be testing our modified Kelly SepEx controller here real soon. It is the 72 volt 600 amp sepex controller. Modified by Kelly Controller for our motors. We are happy so far. Later if all is well we plan on suggesting a few thing to them. But so far all is just fine. Damn good pricing. Their SOC gauge is cheap-o. Ugggg. Only complaint so far is that. 

Pete : )


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## no3rdseat (Oct 16, 2007)

They told me to glue the end back on and test it with the RS232 connector. If it doesn't work they'll replace it. Sounds like a plan.

He said this has happened once before during shipping and the other guy glued it back together and it worked fine.

-Rick


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## KiwiEV (Jul 26, 2007)

What features does the RS232 plug give you on the Kelly controller?


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## Mastiff (Jan 11, 2008)

For those who do not know, an RS232 is just a standard Serial cable.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RS-232

It's the same kind of cable used in programming Basic Stamps and other self contained microprocessor boards.

Kelly does say they want you to use "Their" RS232 cable, but I doubt there's anything different about it than a normal one.

If you want to see the program they use for configuring their controllers it's on their website along with a demo:
http://www.kellycontroller.com/mot/Support.html


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## no3rdseat (Oct 16, 2007)

FWIW, I asked Kelly to include an RS232 cable and they did at no cost to me. I plugged the RS232 into my computer and the controller and tried to start the software on my PC but to no avail. I assume I need some sort of power and ground wiring to the controller in order for the serial port to work. So I have an e-mail into Kelly to find out what needs to be hooked up in order to bench test the unit. 

-Rick


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## no3rdseat (Oct 16, 2007)

Kelly contacted me and told me that the controller needs between 6v-35vdc to pin one, and negative to pin 2 on connector J2. I hooked up a 12v LA battery and started the Kelly software. Since I don't have a traction pack hooked to the controller, it was flashing 1-3 code which is low voltage. But the software came up and this is what I saw:









So it looks like the controller works. I'll see if I can seal up the case and see what happens... once I get my motor and everything in the car. 

Sorry for the hi-jack, but I thought it might be helpful for folks looking to get one of these controllers. Hope it helped somebody.

-Rick


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## ElectricS10 (Mar 20, 2008)

Anyone have long term experience with this product?


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## Guest (Apr 10, 2008)

It's a new product so there will be no long term experience with them at this time. We are pioneers with Kelly products and time will only tell if they are good or so so. My testing should begin as soon as I get my batteries wired up.

: )


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## booksix (Aug 26, 2008)

Thought I'd bring this thread back up. I was looking at the Kelly units and was curious. I was hoping to run a controller higher than 500a because I'm going for street performance but if the products are good and the Regen _can_ be made to work with a series wound DC motor I'd be VERY interested! thanks


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## jlmiller5 (Sep 6, 2008)

What motors are you guys using with this controller? How well does the regen work? I dont want to kill my motor, or speed up the brush life too much.


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## Electric_Rav (Aug 11, 2008)

I too would like to know how things are going with that controller. I've got money burning a hole in my wallet and I'm just about ready to make some purchases.


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## booksix (Aug 26, 2008)

Ok, I really wish there was more info on these controllers! I was looking and they have an optically isolated unit, 168 volts MAX, with and without regen that is rated at 650 amps. I'm wondering if this would stand up against my abusive right foot and a warp 11"...? I really like the idea of these controllers because they have software that allows tweaking. This makes me wonder about the addition of 3rd party software that can do things like launch and traction control, seemless integration of external regen (clutched alternator, etc...) and who knows what else...


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## Tommey Lee Reed (Sep 2, 2008)

Number 6 said:


> Hi all,
> Has anyone had experience with Kelly Controllers as far as performance, quality and reliability?
> Battery Powered Systems advertises a new 144v 500A programmable Kelly *controller with regeneration for $1,095.00!* Here's the link:
> 
> http://www.beepscom.com/product_p/co-kdh14501.htm


They are junk from china.....


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## Tommey Lee Reed (Sep 2, 2008)

booksix said:


> Ok, I really wish there was more info on these controllers! I was looking and they have an optically isolated unit, 168 volts MAX, with and without regen that is rated at 650 amps. I'm wondering if this would stand up against my abusive right foot and a warp 11"...? I really like the idea of these controllers because they have software that allows tweaking. This makes me wonder about the addition of 3rd party software that can do things like launch and traction control, seemless integration of external regen (clutched alternator, etc...) and who knows what else...


Kelly's are made in China, They do not do what they clam. the 144v 500amp do not have enough heat sink that will allow 500amp output!
Its made very cheap!
My Gator Controllers I design are water cooled for that price, No other company offer a water cooled for that price.


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## Tommey Lee Reed (Sep 2, 2008)

Electric_Rav said:


> I too would like to know how things are going with that controller. I've got money burning a hole in my wallet and I'm just about ready to make some purchases.


I have my own powerful Gator controller that is water cooled, my 120v 500 amps Gator Controller is the best on the market for the price.

All the other companies have rise the price on controllers, after Zilla is going out of building any more over price Zilla's.


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## Tommey Lee Reed (Sep 2, 2008)

Electric_Rav said:


> I too would like to know how things are going with that controller. I've got money burning a hole in my wallet and I'm just about ready to make some purchases.


I have a new kelly not used, I will sell for $1000.00.

144v, 500amp

I think they are junk, I open it up to see how they are made to my Gator water cooled controllers.
Its new and I paid the price to open it up, it is not well sealed and easy to reseal too.


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## sailfish11 (Sep 15, 2007)

um, ok. Maybe an opinion from someone that doesn't have a competing product?


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## Tommey Lee Reed (Sep 2, 2008)

Number 6 said:


> Hi all,
> Has anyone had experience with Kelly Controllers as far as performance, quality and reliability?
> Battery Powered Systems advertises a new 144v 500A programmable Kelly *controller with regeneration for $1,095.00!* Here's the link:
> 
> http://www.beepscom.com/product_p/co-kdh14501.htm


Stay away from kelly controllers, they don't perfrom like they say they do.
They will overy heat and no warranty!


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## TelnetManta (Jun 5, 2008)

sailfish11 said:


> um, ok. Maybe an opinion from someone that doesn't have a competing product?



I have not used one personally but I did do the research before buying my Logisystems controller and from what I read the Kelly controller at the time had a design flaw that required the pack voltage to be connected to vehicle ground. Several people have had them blow on them and since they are in Asia turn around time on a repair is VERY long. I also heard that they were inconsistent in responding to customer issues/questions but they are a VERY new company trying to break into the market that's largly dominated by Curtis.

As I said this is my opinion based on what I read.


HTH,
Ben


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## Tommey Lee Reed (Sep 2, 2008)

TelnetManta said:


> I have not used one personally but I did do the research before buying my Logisystems controller and from what I read the Kelly controller at the time had a design flaw that required the pack voltage to be connected to vehicle ground. Several people have had them blow on them and since they are in Asia turn around time on a repair is VERY long. I also heard that they were inconsistent in responding to customer issues/questions but they are a VERY new company trying to break into the market that's largly dominated by Curtis.
> 
> As I said this is my opinion based on what I read.
> 
> ...


Logisystem has the same problem, I took their controller apart when a customer had it repaired because it did not work and found the pwm is junk, also they told him it was IGBT when in fact it was MOSFET's.
They are like kelly's controllers poorly made and not what they say it is.
I work on curtis and rebuild them, they did do a great design, but they have problems with the pwm as most do.
When doing reverse engineering on the curtis I foud some big problems, but they are the better controllers compare to most systems like : Kelly, logisystems and more...


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## booksix (Aug 26, 2008)

Ok, so if these are junk, what are the other options for something that has computer connectivity and included software? I hear good things about Logisystems but they have no serial port/software and I hear horrible things about Curtis units be constantly fried, especially when used in a performance application...


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## Tommey Lee Reed (Sep 2, 2008)

Kelly controller are not what the specs say they can do, most of them overy heat and will burn up with no warrenty. They are not cheap like people think they are, and when the burn up you lose and China wins, that's the facts!


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## Tommey Lee Reed (Sep 2, 2008)

booksix said:


> Ok, so if these are junk, what are the other options for something that has computer connectivity and included software? I hear good things about Logisystems but they have no serial port/software and I hear horrible things about Curtis units be constantly fried, especially when used in a performance application...


If you push any controller over the limit, they all will fried.
One big problem is putting more voltage on the controller when rated to 144v they try 180v, I've seen curtis caps over charge from putting more batteries then what is needed.
That the real truth, most controller will handle 10+v more but thats because of charging state, so a 144v battery pack charge will be about 150v.
many people do this to controllers, one of the down falls on speed controllers and why people burn them up!


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## TelnetManta (Jun 5, 2008)

I have no interest in any controller company, hence these are my opinions. You can call Logisystems and speak to the guys who design, support and built the controllers. They will answer any question that you have without bad mouthing any of their competitors. I really like buying made in the USA if I can for more reasons than the obvious. I like to be able to reach out and touch someone if I have to :-D

Booksix: Hopefully someone else will chime in and give you objective comparisons that can be backed up with numbers. I know how you feel, the hardest part of a conversion is picking out and ordering the parts. I don't think that any of the controllers on the market are "junk" but some are better than others and support after the sale is worth tons in my opinion. If you want to talk to someone who installs these in their conversions as part of their business please think about calling:

Carlo at Ev-Supply
www.ev-supply.com
206-478-2130

Tell him that Ben sent you, he's very willing to help a newby out!


Ben in SC


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## Tommey Lee Reed (Sep 2, 2008)

TelnetManta said:


> I have no interest in any controller company, hence these are my opinions. You can call Logisystems and speak to the guys who design, support and built the controllers. They will answer any question that you have without bad mouthing any of their competitors. I really like buying made in the USA if I can for more reasons than the obvious. I like to be able to reach out and touch someone if I have to :-D
> 
> Booksix: Hopefully someone else will chime in and give you objective comparisons that can be backed up with numbers. I know how you feel, the hardest part of a conversion is picking out and ordering the parts. I don't think that any of the controllers on the market are "junk" but some are better than others and support after the sale is worth tons in my opinion. If you want to talk to someone who installs these in their conversions as part of their business please think about calling:
> 
> ...


Coming from a suppy is not the same as telling the truth, I can you won't speak the truth because of the marketing EV supply.
How will you tell the truth when your like a sale person to make everything sound good, the fact are people are getting taking for a joy ride and you tell me they are all good.
What B.S, Do you sell the Kelly, logisystems and parts. I know you will not like the truth, the truth will hurt your ev supply company.


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## TelnetManta (Jun 5, 2008)

I'm just a satisfied customer and am trying to help someone get their conversion underway instead of scaring them. You seem to be talking alot about your controller, have you sold any yet? How could you be making any if you spend all day here bashing the products that other people are making. Good or bad they're at least doing more than talking.

I didn't want to make this personal but you continue to rant and ramble, are you trying to get your post count up or what?

Let's get this thread back on the OP's original topic, shall we?

Ben


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## frodus (Apr 12, 2008)

Hey, Tommy

Do you have a cutsheet (spec sheet) for your controller? Post some pictures, runtimes at XXXamps, temperature readings. Show us some curves and how you rate your controller current rating. How do you tune your controller?


I don't think you, nor kelly, nor curtis really PUBLISH that information do you....

Zilla posts their specs, temperature ratings and max current.... and they're still being produced BTW, but production WILL stop within 6 months.


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## frodus (Apr 12, 2008)

TelnetManta said:


> I didn't want to make this personal but you continue to rant and ramble, are you trying to get your post count up or what?
> 
> 
> 
> Ben


 
search online in the EVDL archives... he reared his ugly head about 6 months back and did the same little tizzy fit about the cost and quality of controllers... and still we have yet to see a controller.


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## OHM (Jun 30, 2008)

Tommey Lee Reed said:


> Logisystem has the same problem, I took their controller apart when a customer had it repaired because it did not work and found the pwm is junk, also they told him it was IGBT when in fact it was MOSFET's.
> They are like kelly's controllers poorly made and not what they say it is.
> I work on curtis and rebuild them, they did do a great design, but they have problems with the pwm as most do.
> When doing reverse engineering on the curtis I foud some big problems, but they are the better controllers compare to most systems like : Kelly, logisystems and more...


Tommy can you show us your product and why its better? or are you going to just talk because you should know by now talk is cheap.


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## Astronomer (Aug 7, 2008)

Tommey Lee Reed said:


> (Regarding statements about Logisystems) How will you tell the truth when your like a sale person to make everything sound good


Yeah, I know exactly what you mean. There's nothing more difficult than getting the truth out of someone who has an agenda.

It's a good thing you're here, Tommey, to remind us of that!


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## OHM (Jun 30, 2008)

Tommy Lee Reid and Gator controller or other grumpy and paranoid Nikola Tesla re-incarnations the EV community is waiting.


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## frodus (Apr 12, 2008)

he's also on a ton of pepetual motion and pure energy systems forums and websites and claims to have a piston air engine that is completely bleeding edge that will change the world.....

He comes off as a cocky, arrogant jerk who's got nothing but crap to say about every other EV company out there. Otmar never came anywhere and talked down, neither has Kelly or Alltrax. Some of us QUESTION the avility to supply "quote" current...

Tommey Reed is NOT making a great name for himself, he seems like he's a typical drug dealer mentality.... Come over here and buy my shit, I haven't been here long, but I PROMISE my shit is good..... don't but those other guy's shit, because its complete crap (but I've only tried a couple different kinds)....but please, buy my shit, because its better.


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## MindMil (Jul 22, 2008)

Well, I guess I am the one to take the risk. 
I have already purchased the KDH14651B controller. What I have to say so far that their communications were good and responsive. Order was delivered very quickly.
OK, the controller craftmanship does not look to be the best. It just looks the same as in their photos - no surprises. As I don't have the motor and batteries yet I can't start testing it but I'll start playing with in table-lab setup soon.

Now I guess few of you would question my choice so I'd like to share my thoughts that lead to buying this particular controller.

First choice was Zilla Z1K-LV. I really liked it with its features, quality and references from EVers. The price was right. What really turned me down was the lead time of dissapointing 7 or more months. Now it's even suspending the production. I understand what Otmar is saying in his posts and it was tough choice for him for making priorities as I've once had similar experience myself. I hope Zillas will come back.

Looked at Curtis 1231C-8601. A stone age design electronic equipment which works for most people. I can't justify such a company not finding any solution to overcome their design problem in other way apart from lowering the PWM frequency to 1.5kHz and giving the whine we all 'love'. Non-programmability of the controller IMO is serious drawback if you want to achieve good results. Tweaking few potentiometers 'by ear' is not programming.

Looked at Zapi but it did not impress me for some reason. Logisystems similar to Curtis, just without whine and some more powerful models that I don't need. Others either no longer available or not ready yet. Was not looking at very expensive / AC options.

So I went for Kelly. Their new opto-isolated product line should resolve control and power stages interface problem giving some EV converters problems. I don't set my current handling expectations for it too high but their new 650A controller should handle it notably better than older 500A models which were criticized. I went for regen model which according to Kelly tech support handles higher voltages of at least 180V. I won't use regen in my conversion but extra margin would put me on safe side in case I'd like to raise the LiFePo4 battery pack voltage with more cells a bit higher than 144V.

I've seen rambling about Kelly burning a lot. But so did Curtis and other brands for many people when mishandled. It's just that Curtis has passed that stage years ago. They've somehow solved most of these problems and don't care to enhance the design anymore. Meanwhile Kelly has yet to prove that it's good enough as everyone is looking very suspiciously and every drawback gets escalated loudly.

Having said that I might be wrong about new Kellys and they are all crappy indeed but I'll have to find out. I'll take the risk. Once I'll have some reliable results I'll post them. But it will take at least 2 months from now until I get my other components and start putting them together.


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## Tommey Lee Reed (Sep 2, 2008)

MindMil said:


> Well, I guess I am the one to take the risk.
> I have already purchased the KDH14651B controller. What I have to say so far that their communications were good and responsive. Order was delivered very quickly.
> OK, the controller craftmanship does not look to be the best. It just looks the same as in their photos - no surprises. As I don't have the motor and batteries yet I can't start testing it but I'll start playing with in table-lab setup soon.
> 
> ...


 
I understand why most people would go with Kelly controllers, but its not a great unit for the price.
I have taken apart the kelly and found that the design is junk, they have little heat sink and not enough caps to keep from over loading the main power supply to the mosfets.
The unit on the 144v 500amp controller us cheap mosfets with less then 12 in a 500 amp controller.
The controller does not have a spec on the output at 500 amp.
At $1,100.00+ is not cheap for most, and they have lied to the customers about the true output.
Good luck, and please let everyone know when it stop working for you!

As for me, I will keep making my own Gator controllers.
I hope to enter the market soon.

Tommey Lee Reed
www.rotarypistonengine.com


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## Tommey Lee Reed (Sep 2, 2008)

MindMil said:


> Well, I guess I am the one to take the risk.
> I have already purchased the KDH14651B controller. What I have to say so far that their communications were good and responsive. Order was delivered very quickly.
> OK, the controller craftmanship does not look to be the best. It just looks the same as in their photos - no surprises. As I don't have the motor and batteries yet I can't start testing it but I'll start playing with in table-lab setup soon.
> 
> ...


The 1.5 khz is not good for mosfet, at that rate of speed it will cause heating on the mosfet and performance output.
This is why most speed controllers are at 10-15 khz, I like it at 10khz there is still a little whinning in the motor.


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## Tommey Lee Reed (Sep 2, 2008)

OHM said:


> Tommy can you show us your product and why its better? or are you going to just talk because you should know by now talk is cheap.


Yes, I will have a youtube video on it soon.......


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## frodus (Apr 12, 2008)

Tommey Lee Reed said:


> The 1.5 khz is not good for mosfet, at that rate of speed it will cause heating on the mosfet and performance output.
> This is why most speed controllers are at 10-15 khz, I like it at 10khz there is still a little whinning in the motor.


actually, 1.5khz DECREASES switching losses....which cuts back on heat at lower RPM's. For the same motor and controller at a higher frequency, if the duty cycle was kept the same percentage but the frequency was higher, it WOULD heat up more.


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## frodus (Apr 12, 2008)

Tommey Lee Reed said:


> Yes, I will have a youtube video on it soon.......


translation: Vaporware

If you have a product, it would have been best to shoot video, create a spec sheet and take pictures before coming in here to hijack threads and talk smack about other companies. You're credibility is zero.


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## MindMil (Jul 22, 2008)

Tommey Lee Reed said:


> I have taken apart the kelly and found that the design is junk, they have little heat sink and not enough caps to keep from over loading the main power supply to the mosfets.
> The unit on the 144v 500amp controller us cheap mosfets with less then 12 in a 500 amp controller.


Can you please post the pictures of Kelly controller inside and what exactly MOSFET transistors do they use? I'd like to check with these transistors datasheet specs. That would also allow to calculate the heat dissipation and cooling requirements.
BTW, Kelly states they produce 260A continuous. Curtis states 225A continuous. I haven't seen any properly documented their test report or comparison yet.
The problem of Curtis is well described in CafeElectric site http://www.cafeelectric.com/curtis/FirstFeet.html and there are better ways to resolve this problem of a design than dropping the frequency from normal >15kHz to 1.5kHz either 10kHz or whatever.


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## TX_Dj (Jul 25, 2008)

Tommey Lee Reed said:


> The 1.5 khz is not good for mosfet, at that rate of speed it will cause heating on the mosfet and performance output.
> This is why most speed controllers are at 10-15 khz, I like it at 10khz there is still a little whinning in the motor.


Curtis only uses 1.5 kHz for slow speed control. When the "whine" disappears, that is when the controller shifts to 15 kHz

You keep talking trash about other controllers, and keep talking about how you "hope to market" your design soon...

The more you trash the competition without having a viable alternative, the less credibility you lend yourself when you finally (if ever) emerge from the land of vaporware.


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## Tommey Lee Reed (Sep 2, 2008)

frodus said:


> actually, 1.5khz DECREASES switching losses....which cuts back on heat at lower RPM's. For the same motor and controller at a higher frequency, if the duty cycle was kept the same percentage but the frequency was higher, it WOULD heat up more.


That is not what all controller designer will do, in fact the less pwm will pull more amps then at a higher pwm.

Most controller run at 10-15khz for that reason, When I lower the pwm will increase heat at the same draw.
In fact the 30% pwm will pull more amps then 100% on the pwm.
This is another reason why pwm is at 10-15khz.
give me one speed controller that runs at 1.5khz, some of them will start out that way to please the customer, but they all will run at 10-15khz...
I take it you build controller or is it just something you read, what ever your wrong!


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## MindMil (Jul 22, 2008)

Tommey Lee Reed said:


> That is not what all controller designer will do, in fact the less pwm will pull more amps then at a higher pwm.
> 
> Most controller run at 10-15khz for that reason, When I lower the pwm will increase heat at the same draw.
> In fact the 30% pwm will pull more amps then 100% on the pwm.
> ...


Just don't waste my time!


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## Tommey Lee Reed (Sep 2, 2008)

frodus said:


> translation: Vaporware
> 
> If you have a product, it would have been best to shoot video, create a spec sheet and take pictures before coming in here to hijack threads and talk smack about other companies. You're credibility is zero.


You can sell the B.S to someone else, but not me.
Customers need to know that they have highjack the EV world, the parts to make most of these controller are ten times less then what they sell them for.

You just sell the B.S, but I came here to question the companies B.S....
As for my self, I do hold a patent and working on more on energy projects.
As a high school drop out, you can not fool me about the BS.
I build many high tec projects, controllers are not complex!

www.rotarypistonengine.com


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## Tommey Lee Reed (Sep 2, 2008)

MindMil said:


> Just don't waste my time!


Before you make your clams, know what your talkin about.

Sell your B.S, but I will ask the hard question that you will not give!


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## TX_Dj (Jul 25, 2008)

Tommey Lee Reed said:


> You just sell the B.S, but *I came here to question the companies B.S....*
> As for my self, I do hold a patent and working on more on energy projects.
> As a high school drop out, you can not fool me about the BS.
> I build many high tec projects, controllers are not complex!


I think you've mistaken the purpose for this forum if you believe it was put here for you to "question the companies (sic) B.S." and to insult our members.


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## Tommey Lee Reed (Sep 2, 2008)

MindMil said:


> Just don't waste my time!


 
[h3]PWM and motor Heating[/h3]

A popular 'old wife's tale' is that PWM causes the motor to heat more than pure d.c. Like most old wives' tales, this springs from a partial truth nurtured by misunderstanding. The 'myth' comes about because, if the frequency is *too* low, the current is discontinuous (or at least variable over the pwm waveform) because the motor's inductance cannot maintain the current properly during the off period of the waveform. So the motor current will be pulsed - not continuous. The average current will determine the torque but heating will be an integral of the current squared (heating is proportional to I²R)- the 'form factor' of the current will be greater than unity. The lower the frequency, the higher the ripple current and the greater the heating. 

So consider an oversimplified case where the current is either on or off. If the current flows for, say, 1/3 of the time and you require a torque from the motor equivalent to that given by 1 amp continuous, them you clearly need an average current of 1 amp. To do this with a 33% duty cycle you must have 3 amps (the current flows for for 1/3 of the time). 
Now a current of 3 amps will give 9 times (I squared) the heating effect of 1 amp continuous. 
But if 3 amps is flowing for only 1/3 the total time - so the heating in the motor is 9 times for 1/3 the time - or a factor of 3 greater than the steady 1 amp! This waveform is said to have a 'form-factor' of 3 (or is it 33% - no doubt someone will put me right!) 
However - if the pulse repetition frequency is high enough, the motor's inductance will cause a flywheel effect and the current will become stable. For instance the Lynch motor has an inductance of only 39 microhenrys (being one of the lowest inductance motors I know of) and a resistance of 0.016 Ohms. The 'Time constant' for an L-R circuit is L/R which (for the Lynch motor) gives 2.4 mSec. For an SEM DPM40P4 (1kW) the inductance is 200 microhenries and the resistance 40 milliohms - giving a time constant of 5mSec. 
As a rule of thumb and to avoid too much maths, the pulse repetition period must be significantly shorter than the motor's time constant. 
Other factors that affects PRF are: 
If is it is in the audio band the motor can emit a whine (caused by a phenomenon known as 'magnetostriction', so keep above the audio band. 
A MOSFET circuit dissipates most while switching from one state to the other so the frequency should not be too high - MOSFETs can be used upto 100kHz with care, but this is getting a bit high. 
RF emissions: these increase with increasing frequency, so keep the frequency as low as possible! It is clearly difficult to chose a 'best' compromise between these but an optimum frequency would seem to be around 20kHz.


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## frodus (Apr 12, 2008)

> That is not what all controller designer will do, in fact the less pwm will pull more amps then at a higher pwm.


This is true IF you're not limiting current. If you just PWM the FET's and let them go, they'll turn on and give TONS of current. How are you limiting the current on the controller?



> Most controller run at 10-15khz for that reason, When I lower the pwm will increase heat at the same draw.


because you're giving more amps... because you're not limiting current.



> In fact the 30% pwm will pull more amps then 100% on the pwm.
> This is another reason why pwm is at 10-15khz.


Not under a constant load it won't. You're using a motor as a load. Try using just the field of the motor as the load.... 30% will pull less amps than 100% PWM. Motor amp draw decreases with RPM, and RPM is dependant on the voltage the motor sees (the PWM%). You need to be testing your controller on a fixed load.



> give me one speed controller that runs at 1.5khz, some of them will start out that way to please the customer, but they all will run at 10-15khz...


Curtis is the only one I know of that does it, and its to help control their slow on and slow off times in their controller.... once they turn on and go into current limit, the controller tells them to go off, but its too late. Thats why they decreased the pwm frequency up to a certain PWM percent, so their current feedback loop had plenty of time to tell the slow FET's to turn off before the current went too high. Sounds like thats why you're controller heats up at lower frequencies... because you don't control the current.



> I take it you build controller or is it just something you read, what ever your wrong!


no, you're design of the current limit needs some work. If you DECREASE PWM, you switching losses UNLESS you aren't limiting current on the controller.

I bet all you do is hook a bunch of FET's to a PWM generator and drive them, along with some diodes to keep the current going in the motor loop. Again, how are you limiting the current?

And yes, I help build motor controllers, but you'd know that if you could remember our previous conversations on EVDL.


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## frodus (Apr 12, 2008)

Tommey Lee Reed said:


> [h3]PWM and motor Heating[/h3]
> 
> A popular 'old wife's tale' is that PWM causes the motor to heat more than pure d.c. Like most old wives' tales, this springs from a partial truth nurtured by misunderstanding. The 'myth' comes about because, if the frequency is *too* low, the current is discontinuous (or at least variable over the pwm waveform) because the motor's inductance cannot maintain the current properly during the off period of the waveform. So the motor current will be pulsed - not continuous. The average current will determine the torque but heating will be an integral of the current squared (heating is proportional to I²R)- the 'form factor' of the current will be greater than unity. The lower the frequency, the higher the ripple current and the greater the heating.
> 
> ...


First off, I thought we were talking about CONTROLLER HEATING, not motor heating. I know what you're saying about the Tim constant of the LR of the motor, and thats obvious. Certain motors will run more rough than others due to a lower LR constant. They also might take more current from the controller due to lower frequencies. Another reason you have to put a current limit on the controller.

Its funny that you just quoted "A MOSFET circuit dissipates most while switching from one state to the other so the frequency should not be too high " so that means lower frequency heats the controller less.... at the same current.


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## Tommey Lee Reed (Sep 2, 2008)

frodus said:


> This is true IF you're not limiting current. If you just PWM the FET's and let them go, they'll turn on and give TONS of current. How are you limiting the current on the controller?
> 
> 
> because you're giving more amps... because you're not limiting current.
> ...


I use lm339 to limit the current read both the top voltage and m- using resisters to cut back the pwm, also the thermo heat shut down.
The lm339 are cheap and most people like to use the 3524 pwm, but this only gives you 90% pwm.
most controller read the top voltage drop, but i also check the - to m- this tell if the mosfet are complete open that will cause the mosfet to over load...
Yes I do have all the stops to keep my controller from burnning up!
Many customers like to program the controllers, but this is just a waste of 
time when most don't know anything about power factors on hp.
Its a toy to play with!


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## Tommey Lee Reed (Sep 2, 2008)

frodus said:


> actually, 1.5khz DECREASES switching losses....which cuts back on heat at lower RPM's. For the same motor and controller at a higher frequency, if the duty cycle was kept the same percentage but the frequency was higher, it WOULD heat up more.


 
[h3]PWM and motor Heating[/h3]

A popular 'old wife's tale' is that PWM causes the motor to heat more than pure d.c. Like most old wives' tales, this springs from a partial truth nurtured by misunderstanding. The 'myth' comes about because, if the frequency is *too* low, the current is discontinuous (or at least variable over the pwm waveform) because the motor's inductance cannot maintain the current properly during the off period of the waveform. So the motor current will be pulsed - not continuous. The average current will determine the torque but heating will be an integral of the current squared (heating is proportional to I²R)- the 'form factor' of the current will be greater than unity. The lower the frequency, the higher the ripple current and the greater the heating. 

So consider an oversimplified case where the current is either on or off. If the current flows for, say, 1/3 of the time and you require a torque from the motor equivalent to that given by 1 amp continuous, them you clearly need an average current of 1 amp. To do this with a 33% duty cycle you must have 3 amps (the current flows for for 1/3 of the time). 
Now a current of 3 amps will give 9 times (I squared) the heating effect of 1 amp continuous. 
But if 3 amps is flowing for only 1/3 the total time - so the heating in the motor is 9 times for 1/3 the time - or a factor of 3 greater than the steady 1 amp! This waveform is said to have a 'form-factor' of 3 (or is it 33% - no doubt someone will put me right!) 
However - if the pulse repetition frequency is high enough, the motor's inductance will cause a flywheel effect and the current will become stable. For instance the Lynch motor has an inductance of only 39 microhenrys (being one of the lowest inductance motors I know of) and a resistance of 0.016 Ohms. The 'Time constant' for an L-R circuit is L/R which (for the Lynch motor) gives 2.4 mSec. For an SEM DPM40P4 (1kW) the inductance is 200 microhenries and the resistance 40 milliohms - giving a time constant of 5mSec. 
As a rule of thumb and to avoid too much maths, the pulse repetition period must be significantly shorter than the motor's time constant. 
Other factors that affects PRF are: 
If is it is in the audio band the motor can emit a whine (caused by a phenomenon known as 'magnetostriction', so keep above the audio band. 
A MOSFET circuit dissipates most while switching from one state to the other so the frequency should not be too high - MOSFETs can be used upto 100kHz with care, but this is getting a bit high. 
RF emissions: these increase with increasing frequency, so keep the frequency as low as possible! It is clearly difficult to chose a 'best' compromise between these but an optimum frequency would seem to be around 20kHz.


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## frodus (Apr 12, 2008)

PLEASE forgive me.... I'm just so eager to get my hands on one of your controllers.... the world is waiting for something groundbreaking in the EV world. This could be the solution!

So many of us have been blinded by the magic that goes on inside the controller. Please show us the way and provide us with a cheap high quality device that we can start buying.... and hurry up.... time is running out.


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## Tommey Lee Reed (Sep 2, 2008)

frodus said:


> PLEASE forgive me.... I'm just so eager to get my hands on one of your controllers.... the world is waiting for something groundbreaking in the EV world. This could be the solution!
> 
> So many of us have been blinded by the magic that goes on inside the controller. Please show us the way and provide us with a cheap high quality device that we can start buying.... and hurry up.... time is running out.


I am doing what I can, I spent many hours to work out the specs and what customers want.
I have the Gator controller that is build from the ground up, this is water cooled that will need less mosfet or igbt.
I want to help on making them much cheaper then any controller today.
I buy controllers just to take them apart and test, I waste money just to find what not to do in building a controller.
One man job is hard, but that's all I can trust and that's me.
Many people want to over charge people just because they can, I believe if I can bring down the price then most people would like to convert their own car the electric.
This will increase business if the price is lower, at this time the price is too high for most people.
Even dc motor have been up there is price, I do rebuild them to but the price of copper is where the high price comes from when buying a dc motor.

I really want to sell my controllers after testing is completed and better specs.
I have tested 90% load on my controllers and found that being water cooled their is little heat on the power board.


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## 1clue (Jul 21, 2008)

Tommey Lee Reed said:


> You can sell the B.S to someone else, but not me.
> Customers need to know that they have highjack the EV world, the parts to make most of these controller are ten times less then what they sell them for.
> 
> You just sell the B.S, but I came here to question the companies B.S....
> ...




Tommey,

I don't know about the electronics being discussed here, but I do know that for somebody who hopes to market a product you sure aren't making any good impressions on this site. Marketing is more than half the battle in the commercial world, and you're leaving a terrible impression.

If you have a speed controller patent as you say, then you can post a link to it here, because patents are public information. That at least will give everyone a legally binding and fairly specific document to look at, which is a legitimate first step toward a salable product. That will give you some legitimacy that you are absolutely positively not getting in this thread so far. It still won't prove your ideas work, because I can find you some patents for things that have never been built and could never work, you can patent anything as long as nobody else got there first. However it would at least give you a leg to stand on in this discussion.

Legitimate enterprises don't crap all over the competition. Even if they are vastly better better they still treat the competition with respect and address the differences between their product and yours with "This is how they do it, here's how we do it and this is why our way is better." The best of the best simply say, "Here is how we do it and this is why it's the best way," and ignore the competition entirely.

If a legitimate engineer sees something he knows won't work and wants to alert the public, it can still be done in a way that doesn't come across as bullying. Say your piece, give your reasons, answer questions and then just stand back and let your words stand on their own merit.

You might be the world's greatest electrical engineer for all I know (and I wouldn't), but you come across as all hat no cattle to my admittedly non-expert eyes. I can't judge your product on its merits, but the way you address the discussion here makes me see you as a poser.


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## TX_Dj (Jul 25, 2008)

1clue said:


> all hat no cattle


Yessir. Best as I can tell.




TX_Dj said:


> bashing the so-called "competition" for your vaporware is unprofessional and I dare say unwelcome...


Tommey,

Like 1clue said- you may be the most brilliant EE in the universe, and have a vastly superior product with margins so tight you can market it for half the price of a competing product. 

More power to you. 

Get the product in the hands of your consumers, and let them sing your praises. 

If you need to compare why your product is superior, you need not insult or disrespect the people who are ultimately your target consumer base or your competitors. 

Doing so tends to slant your sales pitch towards the wastebasket... and you out the door.


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## booksix (Aug 26, 2008)

MindMil, thanks! I can't wait to see it come together and how the unit and software works. Please keep us updated!


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## Astronomer (Aug 7, 2008)

> You can sell the B.S to someone else, but not me.


I'm sorry, but do some people just have no mirrors in their homes, or what? How can someone so utterly fail to see himself in his unkind portrayal of others? 

If you're going to complain about the BS someone else is shovelling, it might be a good idea to shut down your own backhoe first.


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## booksix (Aug 26, 2008)

Hahaha, "shut down your back ho first!"

Ok, all funny, but lets get back on topic. Tommy: Forum members on any forum hate when people push "opinions" that are _very_ clearly laced with a personal agenda. Also, if you want to express a negative opinion a product that you are comparing yours to, please post pics and irrefutable proof.

Everyone else, I think that's enough. Please back to the topic. If these controllers have improved since the first seen issues, we may have another controller option. Lets focus on furthering the EV community rather than thrashing each other! Good things may be coming!


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## frodus (Apr 12, 2008)

I think we should send this to kelly, its only going to motivate them to make their product better and cheaper....


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## Madmac (Mar 14, 2008)

> I use lm339 to limit the current read both the top voltage and m- using resisters to cut back the pwm


Interesting choice of device for current limiting. Would be difficult to choose a less suited comparator. This device switching time is dependent on input level and over drive.

Large signal response is 300nSec as per the data sheet. Small signal (100mV 5mV over drive) is 1.3uSec. In a current limit circuit for 500Amps you want to reduce I2R losses to minimum so the smaller the voltage the better. As voltage swing gets less time goes up.

Madmac


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## OHM (Jun 30, 2008)

Nicola Tesla supposedly was an angry and socially inept man, didnt trust a soul (partly thanks to Edison stealing and using him for his needs) but he backed up his creations with solid matter.
Im not saying Tommey you are a genius as you are toying with DC motor controllers )) but to make sure you understand that its important to be humble especially with this industry and community. I hope you have something worthwhile for the community and if so to make sure you 
dont burn your bridges too early.


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## jbeatty (Sep 6, 2008)

Hi Everybody.

I've been lurking here for a while, but this is my first post. I'm a high school teacher in Ferndale, MI and I run an after school electric car program. My students design and build small electric vehicles (basically go karts) with 24V systems for a biannual race. 

Its interesting I ran across this thread, and couldn't resist.....

We bought a kelly controller for this years car because we were interested in the regen. Granted, we are only running 24V, so its a smaller controller, but its the customer service that I really wanted to address. This controller is defective. Its a 300 amp controller but will only put out 130. Today we swapped controllers with an older alltrax that we have and instantly got 50% more current and FAR better performance.

I've been going back and forth with 'Steven' at Kelly trying troubleshoot. He's been fairly helpful until today. All along he's been suggesting that I didn't know how to measure current properly and that the controller was really working. Today I told him the results of our controller swap and said I'd like a refund. He refused to refund and even mocked me, quoting the email I sent to him. He told me the controller is rated for 120 continuous so the 130 we're getting is normal. That's great.... what about the 300 peak? Oh yeah, the regen braking based on an analog signal didn't work either. The braking would work, but it was either on or off, it wouldn't vary with the analog signal.

Clearly they are NOT at all serious about customer happiness. Its pretty bad when somebody (like this guy) is going to stick it to a group of high school kids. He's refused to do anything for me (refund, return, nothing). 

If I was you... Avoid Kelly Controllers. Not only did ours not work as advertised, NO CUSTOMER SUPPORT and RUDE. Hope this helps.

Jason Beatty
University High School IVD Leader


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## OHM (Jun 30, 2008)

The opposite could be said of another high school project weve been watching and I presume the same Steven has been very helpful and
very communicative. You should refer this link to him Im sure he would refund your product then.


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## jbeatty (Sep 6, 2008)

Yeah, he was helpful for a while. Right up until I told him that the alltrax is doing what his controller won't. Now he's an outright jerk. We've been firing emails back and forth all night. He's mostly trying to insult me. However, he still hasn't explained why his controller won't get any more then 130 amps while the alltrax will in the same car. I don't know.... I was really happy until tonight. I just thought you guys might want to know.

Oh yeah, this is the best part.... I have asked him several times why he's going to treat a bunch of teen age high schoolers like this. They paid good money for this controller and it doesn't perform. His response..... "Some teenagers are headache..". You can judge for yourself. I just know personally, that I will never do business with him again.


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## booksix (Aug 26, 2008)

Great to know. I'd agree you should send him the link. I'm sure a lot of ppl will avoid them at all costs after hearing this... sad


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## OHM (Jun 30, 2008)

make the issue open source to this community its the best way to get to the root of the issue. 

Id be happy to see the emails up on this site. 
As we havent heard Stevens side yet.
No one can say who is to really to blame at the moment as many are happy with the Kelly controllers purchased.

I hope you are not Tommey in disguise


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## booksix (Aug 26, 2008)

Guess I need to search more... I haven't seen any good comments yet!


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## frodus (Apr 12, 2008)

OHM said:


> I hope you are not Tommey in disguise


Everyone else here speaks normal English with proper grammar..... it CAN'T be Tommey!


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## OHM (Jun 30, 2008)

frodus said:


> Everyone else here speaks normal English with proper grammar..... it CAN'T be Tommey!


He could have used a grammar and spell checker this time


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## frodus (Apr 12, 2008)

OHM said:


> He could have used a grammar and spell checker this time


somehow I doubt he knows how to use one...


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## 1clue (Jul 21, 2008)

jbeatty said:


> Yeah, he was helpful for a while. Right up until I told him that the alltrax is doing what his controller won't. Now he's an outright jerk. We've been firing emails back and forth all night. He's mostly trying to insult me. However, he still hasn't explained why his controller won't get any more then 130 amps while the alltrax will in the same car. I don't know.... I was really happy until tonight. I just thought you guys might want to know.
> 
> Oh yeah, this is the best part.... I have asked him several times why he's going to treat a bunch of teen age high schoolers like this. They paid good money for this controller and it doesn't perform. His response..... "Some teenagers are headache..". You can judge for yourself. I just know personally, that I will never do business with him again.



I wonder how many support people they have?

Start firing the insulting messages (the whole thread) right back at the general support email, and sooner or later a manager will see it. Steven might just be looking for employment.


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## 1clue (Jul 21, 2008)

And then, if that doesn't get you reasonable customer service, Google on Kelly Controller and anywhere that your search result references a forum, post your story about lack of support and rudeness. Sooner or later, Kelly will realize that it would have been far, far cheaper for them to replace your controller than it was for them to dump you.


Good luck, and let us know how it turns out.


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## fugdabug (Jul 14, 2008)

My KDH14500, is not a regen but I can say that I have decided to try to get a Curtis 1231C. The interface didn't work for me, so I cannot program the controller or adjust anything in the way of pot control response etc.. AND now I find that it keeps cutting out on me unexpectedly... And yes, I have the voltage still in the pack, there is nothing overheating... I will just suddenly stop getting drive juice... and the only thing I can confirm is the controller. I realize that they made the model I have obsolete a week and a half after I bought it from EVUSA... and yes, the person was a very kind and considerate voice on the other end, if at times I was not sure my description was being processed in the persons mind the way I had stated it... Be that as it may, a friendly voice doesn't fix my problem. I am pretty sure I won't be ordering another Kelly controller. I have to have something I don't have to fuss with or worry about all the time... and this Kelly has provided me with a lot to think about. So I will count the $980.00+ as down the crapper of experience, and trudge off to get a Curtis 1231C... if I can find one available in short order.(?)


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## MindMil (Jul 22, 2008)

I've tried my KDH14651B on the table powered by simple 12V 12Ah battery with desktop PC connected. Programming is fine as described and shown in demo on Kelly's site. Parameters are read and written without problem. 
Please note that RS232 on some notebook PCs use -5/+5V for signals which is not standard and some equipment might not be happy with these signals. I'll try to program with my notebook later.
The consumption of idle controller (without anything attached) was around 75mA. The control and power stages of it are indeed isolated although I can still read about 450kOhms resistance between Signal GND and power terminals B-, B+ and M.


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## jbeatty (Sep 6, 2008)

Hi Guys.... First off, I GUARANTEE you I am NOT Tommy in disguise  After all, if I was Tommy, how could I possibly avoid plugging my own hardware and telling you what a genius I am!

So, the morning after I had my online pissing match with Steven and made the post here, I received another email from him stating that he was going to send me a new controller. Now I don't know what to think. I somewhat confused about why he couldn't have just done that in the beginning and saved all the insults, but whatever. I'll keep you posted after I receive it and try it out.

Incidentally, on the configuration software, it is quite nice. There are a lot of adjustments, and for us it worked as shown on the kelly site (although we did have the trouble mentioned previously with the analog signal for regen).

Actually, while I'm at it, maybe you guys can help with the problem I was having.... Our car is 24V DC. We have the Mars 0709 Brushed DC Motor http://www.cloudelectric.com/inc/sdetail/2366 which should be over 6 hp peak (as I understand it, but granted I'm pretty new to this). Our batteries are deep cycle 55 Ah. I was told these batteries should be capable of 300 amps. From a dead stop, full throttle, we are only getting 130 amps MOTOR current. We've completely rewired our car and stripped out ALL unnecessary parts like cutoff switches, etc. We are running battery to contactor to controller. Nothing else. The controller is the Kelly KD36301, supposedly capable of 300 amps peak. What else could possibly cause us to get less than 1/2 peak current? Keep in mind we put the alltrax out of our other car in this one and immediately went to 180 amps. The alltrax is a 400 amp controller, so we're still not reaching peak, but our current did improve by 50% by pulling out the Kelly. 

These are the questions that I asked Steven that he never answered 

Any help is greatly appreciated. 

Jason


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## fugdabug (Jul 14, 2008)

Just had to write! I just got off the phone with the Kelly Controllers person in Illinois, I ordered a USB-RS232 connector to give it one more shot on the programming of the controller... It could be my computer MoBo isn't reading the proper port! SO... But just had to say, he actually called me back and corrected some items on my order, AND I had ordered some plastic connectors, he said he didn't have any new but he had some assy's including the wires... and he would send me that if I wanted ($19 instead of $9) I said 'SURE!'... and he said the converter I had listed (just in case) wouldn't be necessary with the Serial connection... it doesn't require a twisted pair... so I get $9 off there... and I am balanced to the original order cost!... HA! I have to say he is really fun to talk to, and knows his stuff! And is willing to give you a deal!!! So I am reserving any further judgment on the Kelly... I have to consider that I may have been off on my methods... really nice guy to talk to...


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## ClintK (Apr 27, 2008)

What distributor have you guys been working with for the Kelly controllers?

I've been seriously looking at a Kelly 144V 400A for my conversion. My car will be 120V, but the Kelly 120V controller has a max operating voltage of only 136V while a 144V can do 168V. (120V nominal Lithiums reach 161V) Of course now I wonder if my L91-4003 120V motor can do 161V...

Anyways, http://www.kellycontroller.com is significantly cheaper than all the other EV supplier sites I've been looking at ($100-200 cheaper).



fugdabug said:


> Just had to write! I just got off the phone with the Kelly Controllers person in Illinois, I ordered a USB-RS232 connector to give it one more shot on the programming of the controller...
> I have to say he is really fun to talk to, and knows his stuff! And is willing to give you a deal!!! So I am reserving any further judgment on the Kelly... I have to consider that I may have been off on my methods... really nice guy to talk to...





jbeatty said:


> So, the morning after I had my online pissing match with Steven and made the post here, I received another email from him stating that he was going to send me a new controller. Now I don't know what to think. I somewhat confused about why he couldn't have just done that in the beginning and saved all the insults, but whatever. I'll keep you posted after I receive it and try it out.


Is the person in Illinois and Steven from kellycontroller.com or another distributor?

Thanks!


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## jbeatty (Sep 6, 2008)

Steven is from Kelly Controller. I think Kelly is based in Illinois, so I would guess its likely that fugdabug was probably talking direct to Kelly too. In fact, I'd be suprised if he wasn't talking to Steven.


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## fugdabug (Jul 14, 2008)

> Is the person in Illinois and Steven from kellycontroller.com or another distributor?
> 
> Thanks!



Yep, that be the man!... just told me in a response email with my receipt, that if it was the controller I would be able to upgrade for the difference in price between the 14500 and the 14500(b) I told him if I found it to be the controller, I would mail the present one along with the money in difference!!! You cannot beat an offer like that. I am not going to 'dis' that kind of willingness to serve a customer...


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## OHM (Jun 30, 2008)

Good to hear, its tough to make everyone happy but we really need controller manufacturer competition. There used to be so many that
just missed the right time to release their products.
If most of those past ones like Kodiak and DC Power popped up from now the EV world would be on a roll.


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## Tommey Lee Reed (Sep 2, 2008)

jbeatty said:


> Hi Everybody.
> 
> I've been lurking here for a while, but this is my first post. I'm a high school teacher in Ferndale, MI and I run an after school electric car program. My students design and build small electric vehicles (basically go karts) with 24V systems for a biannual race.
> 
> ...


Thank you, I tried to warn people about Kelly controllers.
I hope you sue them!


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## Wattmotion (Sep 10, 2008)

Well, I think I have read enough about Kelly. I was so close to buying one but ended up ordering a Curtis unit today. There has been too many of us trying to work out problems with Kelly units. It's almost like these don't factory test or burn in the units before shipping. I have enough headaches trying to finish this that it's worth the couple hundred dollars more. Hopefully have the controller in my hands in a couple of weeks.


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## fugdabug (Jul 14, 2008)

AH!... well, will make sure to try to get this Kelly Controller working before the consideration of buying from them again... which right now is a money consideration. With the jump in prices on Curtis, old standard or not... I am between a rock and a hard spot. I have one more vehicle to do, and a budget limit. Even though the first car has money left in the kitty. 
What our friend the 'lurker' High School Teacher described is consistent with Chinese cultural patterns... I am a student of the T.T. Liang line of Yi Tai Chi, as taught to my teacher directly from one of T.T.'s only three students... and have been studying the cultural aspects of the Chinese people. 
That is why I wasn't surprised to find a company with the name 'KELLY' sending me products directly from China and hearing the voice speak to me in very plainly Chinese-English. The Chinese are doing this with a lot of products here in the U.S. especially when it comes to electronics. They brand it with an American sounding name, and use that to hide their Chinese identity as much as they can*... until you get the product and wonder why the packaging and labels are Chinese script and English... See I also figured my money was down the crapper IF I asked for a refund... but I would get a deal for an 'upgrade'... 
My teacher taught me something I have never forgotten: "You give the first couple of lessons in basics for free. To learn the connecting moves you have to pay... and buy the books..." But he is a good man,.. I wouldn't go to a teacher directly from China. This is the Chinese business model. Give them the 'beta'... then when they come back for repairs slip them the 'alpha' for a 'few more dollars'...  *Also a note: Kelly is identifiable with 'Kelly Electronics' a common American name of a couple of telecommunications equipment companies...


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## spidermonkey (Sep 15, 2008)

fugdabug said:


> Just had to write! I just got off the phone with the Kelly Controllers person in Illinois, I ordered a USB-RS232 connector to give it one more shot on the programming of the controller... It could be my computer MoBo isn't reading the proper port!


make sure the port is not disabled in bios. i wouldnt think it would be by default but i disable serial/parallel cause 'no one' uses those anymore cause universal serial buss is self powered and much faster


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## fugdabug (Jul 14, 2008)

spidermonkey said:


> make sure the port is not disabled in bios. i wouldnt think it would be by default but i disable serial/parallel cause 'no one' uses those anymore cause universal serial buss is self powered and much faster


I have been working so many systems I sometimes forget if it was THIS computer I was working with or another... I better check the BIOS settings... I was checking 'system' in control panel and totally forgot that I had to install a serial port on this new board!!! (trust me,.. I'm not crazy... I am NUTS!)...


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## OHM (Jun 30, 2008)

Is it possible for a controller designer could take a leaf out of auto manufacturers like toyota and split the main ¨brains¨ from the rest
rest of the IGBTs and anything that gets hot?

This way maybe a cheap Delco automotive ecu could be used
and have more control over any kind of malfunction or heat?

If so this also could be an easier method to convert an ICE car to an EV.
You could use most of the guages and control systems already part of 
the vehicle etc.


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## engineer_Bill (Jun 24, 2008)

jbeatty said:


> Hi Guys.... First off, I GUARANTEE you I am NOT Tommy in disguise  After all, if I was Tommy, how could I possibly avoid plugging my own hardware and telling you what a genius I am!
> 
> So, the morning after I had my online pissing match with Steven and made the post here, I received another email from him stating that he was going to send me a new controller. Now I don't know what to think. I somewhat confused about why he couldn't have just done that in the beginning and saved all the insults, but whatever. I'll keep you posted after I receive it and try it out.
> 
> ...


I would try a higher voltage the motor you showed in the link is 24-72 volts. You are running on the LOW end for this motor. The difference in current between the two controllers is most likely caused by a difference in internal resistance in the controllers. IGBT VS MOSFET? or different amount or voltage rating of drive components. Try 36 Volts and see if you get better performance. I'm using a Kelly controller for my EV. I've only bench tested it so far, but it is working good. I had trouble comunicating with it from a laptop, but from my desk top no problem. They sent a new interface cable that fixed the com problem when I called them.


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## MindMil (Jul 22, 2008)

engineer_Bill said:


> I would try a higher voltage the motor you showed in the link is 24-72 volts. You are running on the LOW end for this motor. The difference in current between the two controllers is most likely caused by a difference in internal resistance in the controllers. IGBT VS MOSFET? or different amount or voltage rating of drive components. Try 36 Volts and see if you get better performance. I'm using a Kelly controller for my EV. I've only bench tested it so far, but it is working good. I had trouble comunicating with it from a laptop, but from my desk top no problem. They sent a new interface cable that fixed the com problem when I called them.


I agree with Bill. Low current might not be always a fault of controller. You cannot expect controller to produce the max current what is written in controller max specs. It heavily depends on setup. 
Simplest way to test might be to connect the battery directly to the motor for very short period of time (like 1 to few seconds) and measure the current, lets call it Imax, to the the loaded motor. It is simplest but not safest as high currents and high torque motors might be very nasty. 
So if you do it then do it at your own risk and liability and make sure to take precautions: 
- Use loaded motor (otherwise it will runaway and likely destroy itself). Loaded doesn't mean clamped to be still. A good load is a dynamic one such as barely moving car or a propeller (I've seen guys actually testing this way)
- Use the circuit breaker of current nominal somewhat bigger than maximum rated current of the motor (otherwise you'll smoke the motor if battery is too powerful and current is unexpectedly high due to stalled motor)
- If you have battery stack then it would be much safer to connect fewer batteries first and work it up as you make your measurements.

After this testing you will have the current Imax that proper controller should able to reach in theory if you step on gas with heavy foot. If it is way below then controller has a problem indeed. Ideally in the same conditions the controller should be able to produce any current between 0 and Imax depending on throttle possition.

Couple of examples: 
Exapmle A: You have 300Amp controller, motor model A and 24V battery. You measured Imax = 170 Amps with battery connected to the motor directly and max 150Amps through the controller. Then the controller is most likely OK since it produces about 88% of current range. The rest could be some expected heat dissipation.

Example B: You have 400Amp controller, motor model B and 48V battery. You measured Imax 300Amps directly and 150Amps through controller with throttle down with all controller temperatures initially OK. In this case controller has issues because it produces only 50% of the current available to it. You may also expect controller to heat up very quickly - be cautious.

A more scientific way is to measure four parameters: current from batteries to controller, voltage on batteries on controller input, current controller to motor, voltage on motor on controller output. Then it would be possible to estimate how much of available range the controller uses and what is it's energy loss (heat).


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## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

BTW - what's the verdict with regen on this controller. Does it work or not?


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## engineer_Bill (Jun 24, 2008)

Tesseract said:


> BTW - what's the verdict with regen on this controller. Does it work or not?


It works on the test bench. I strapped down the motor and ran it with half the pack to full RPM then throttled down quickly. I got about half the maximum amps on the startup, back on the regen slow down. I'm still waiting on the coupler to attach to the car. I'll give an update when I'm finished.


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## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

engineer_Bill said:


> It works on the test bench. I strapped down the motor and ran it with half the pack to full RPM then throttled down quickly. I got about half the maximum amps on the startup, back on the regen slow down. I'm still waiting on the coupler to attach to the car. I'll give an update when I'm finished.


Very cool. It's quite difficult to get regeneration to work with a series wound motor because the transfer function has a potential infinity in it (a divide-by-zero). You don't by any chance happen to remember what the actual amps were and if you noticed the motor revert to coasting once it hit a particular rpm do you?


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## saab96 (Mar 19, 2008)

Tesseract said:


> Very cool. It's quite difficult to get regeneration to work with a series wound motor because the transfer function has a potential infinity in it (a divide-by-zero). You don't by any chance happen to remember what the actual amps were and if you noticed the motor revert to coasting once it hit a particular rpm do you?


Is this really going to work well with these tweaked forklift motors that have advanced brush timing? And if you leave the brush timing in a neutral position won't you have trouble getting enough power out of these motors to make it anything more than a NEV?


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## TheSGC (Nov 15, 2007)

engineer_Bill said:


> It works on the test bench. I strapped down the motor and ran it with half the pack to full RPM then throttled down quickly. I got about half the maximum amps on the startup, back on the regen slow down. I'm still waiting on the coupler to attach to the car. I'll give an update when I'm finished.


Woah, wait- are you using a series wound motor and getting actual regen with juice going back into your pack???????!?!??!?!??!

I have a Kelly KDH09401 with REGEN, but I did not enable it because I was under the impression REGEN didn't work with series wound.


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## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

saab96 said:


> Is this really going to work well with these tweaked forklift motors that have advanced brush timing? And if you leave the brush timing in a neutral position won't you have trouble getting enough power out of these motors to make it anything more than a NEV?


You are correct in that regen with an advanced brush motor is a disaster waiting to happen (same as trying to run such a motor in reverse).

And, as far as forklift motors go, yeah, you have to advance the brush timing to run them at a higher voltage (and extract much more horsepower out of them), but this means no reverse and no regeneration, unless you are ok with losing 60-90% of the brush life and/or possibly damaging the commutator segments from arc-over.

Thus, a controller that can do regen should always provide the option of disabling it!


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## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

TheSGC said:


> ...
> I have a Kelly KDH09401 with REGEN, but I did not enable it because I was under the impression REGEN didn't work with series wound.


Every motor is a generator, too. Some are just more suited to the task than others. (disclaimer: I still haven't figured out how to make a shaded-pole motor act as a generator, but theoretically it can).

The problem with the series wound motor is that the qualities that make it so attractive for "traction" applications, like being able to delivering tremendous amounts of torque at 0 rpm, also make it "unstable" as a generator.

For example, the current through a series wound motor skyrockets if you lock its rotor; conversely, the current will also skyrocket if you short-circuit a rotating series motor (and the rotor will quickly decelerate, too, unless a very high inertia load is attached to it... like a moving vehicle!). Unfortunately, because the field current and armature current are the same in a series motor, and the rpm it spins at is proportional to the voltage for a given load, the only way to turn a series motor into a generator is to short-circuit it briefly to allow the current to build up in the field/armature (extracting rotational energy in the process; i.e. - braking) and then release the short after a precise amount of time to allow the inductive nature of the motor to "flyback" and produce a higher voltage than the battery pack's. In SMPS terms, you need to change the controller from a buck converter to a boost converter to do regen with a series wound motor, and those two topologies have very different transfer functions... Because of this, it is not really practical for a strictly analog controller to operate in both modes because the compensation and control scheme for each is radically different: practically speaking, you would need two separate control circuits! It's a whole different story with a microcontroller, though...

Still tricky, mind you, which is why I was curious to see if the Kelly controller actually pulled it off. With reliable regen DC motors really can give 3-ph ac motors a serious run for the money.


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## TheSGC (Nov 15, 2007)

Tesseract said:


> Every motor is a generator, too. Some are just more suited to the task than others. (disclaimer: I still haven't figured out how to make a shaded-pole motor act as a generator, but theoretically it can).
> 
> The problem with the series wound motor is that the qualities that make it so attractive for "traction" applications, like being able to delivering tremendous amounts of torque at 0 rpm, also make it "unstable" as a generator.
> 
> ...


I just sent off an e-mail to Kelly asking them about the series motors and regen on their controllers. I don't want to blow my controller to hell without some verification. But if REGEN does work, that would be amazing.


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## scarab (Jul 3, 2008)

Hi 
do you have a schematic for the controller you might build if so would you like to share it


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Tesseract said:


> Still tricky, mind you, which is why I was curious to see if the Kelly controller actually pulled it off. With reliable regen DC motors really can give 3-ph ac motors a serious run for the money.


I thought part of the problem with regen in a series DC motor is that advancing the motor for higher voltage ends up retarding the motor for regen and that can cause arcing and destruction. If that is the case how can a controller work around that?


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## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

JRP3 said:


> I thought part of the problem with regen in a series DC motor is that advancing the motor for higher voltage ends up retarding the motor for regen and that can cause arcing and destruction. If that is the case how can a controller work around that?


You are correct in noting that any motor with advanced brush timing makes a poor candidate for regen. The only workaround I can think of is to simply limit the regen current to some fraction of the motoring current (say, 10-30%).

So far as I understand it, the whole point to advancing the brush timing on a dc motor, and I admit my knowledge is far from complete here, is to align the peaks of the magnetic field produced by the rotor (armature) with the poles of the stator (field) _at a certain rpm and load._ The reason for needing to do this in the first place is because the "fixed" magnetic field produced by the stator is distorted, or dragged, by the opposing field produced by the rotor. Advancing the brush timing to compensate for this situation decreases the flux difference between adjacent commutator segments. The more similar the flux applied to two wires (loops in the armature), the less difference in voltage induced, and that basically translates into less sparking when the brush shorts the two loops out when passing current off from one loop to the next in line. 

Another benefit of brush timing is that it allows the motor to run on a much higher voltage "for the same amount of sparking during commutation". In other words, you can extract much more power out of the motor without reducing the brush life a corresponding amount. The penalty for this, though, is a vastly less flexible motor: reverse rotation and forward braking (regen) exacerbate sparking, as well as, though to a lesser degree, operating the motor at slower (or faster) speeds than the brush timing is optimized for.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

In case anyone is thinking of enabling regen on their series motor, this is from Zilla master Otmar's article on regen:


> Many people told me of experiments that had ended in fried
> motors. It seems that the motors would experience commutator
> meltdown. It was time to talk to a manufacturer. I called Eric
> Dieroff at Advanced DC Motors for some help.
> ...



He then goes on to explain how he setup regen, though on a neutral timed motor.
http://cafeelectric.com/curtis/regen/index.html


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## TheSGC (Nov 15, 2007)

I just got a reply about using the REGEN on a series wound motor. The controllers are designed for PM REGEN and not series wound REGEN. But there is a kicker. Kelly has a series wound REGEN setup using two controllers. For example I have a KDH09401 with REGEN. The setup would use a KDH09400 to drive the field coil and a KDH09401 to drive armature REGEN.

Apparently this setup will work with any of the Kelly controllers that have a REGEN and non-REGEN model of the same series, and Kelly has the diagrams to do it. 

This is the response I got:

_David,_

_Right now we provide dual controllers for series motor regen, such as 09400 to drive field coil, and 09401 to drive armature regen._

_Single controller isn't able to do regen with series motor._

_Thank you,_
_Steven_


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## ZenDaddy (Jul 22, 2008)

TheSGC said:


> I just got a reply about using the REGEN on a series wound motor. The controllers are designed for PM REGEN and not series wound REGEN. But there is a kicker. Kelly has a series wound REGEN setup using two controllers. For example I have a KDH09401 with REGEN. The setup would use a KDH09400 to drive the field coil and a KDH09401 to drive armature REGEN.
> 
> Apparently this setup will work with any of the Kelly controllers that have a REGEN and non-REGEN model of the same series, and Kelly has the diagrams to do it.


 
Do you have the diagram? I'm curious.

ZD


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## TheSGC (Nov 15, 2007)

ZenDaddy said:


> Do you have the diagram? I'm curious.
> 
> ZD


No I don't have the diagram, but I'll ask for it.


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## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

TheSGC said:


> No I don't have the diagram, but I'll ask for it.



Seems a bit excessive and possibly problematic to require another controller for the field... after all, the field current needs to be matched to the armature current to prevent excessive brush arcing/flashover.

Otmar's idea to use a secondary circuit to tickle the field with current separately seems like the best way to ensure the field has enough magnetization in it when transition from motoring to regen... I'm going to try doing some tests with the motors we have available later in the week and see what really happens.


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## TheSGC (Nov 15, 2007)

Tesseract said:


> Seems a bit excessive and possibly problematic to require another controller for the field... after all, the field current needs to be matched to the armature current to prevent excessive brush arcing/flashover.
> 
> Otmar's idea to use a secondary circuit to tickle the field with current separately seems like the best way to ensure the field has enough magnetization in it when transition from motoring to regen... I'm going to try doing some tests with the motors we have available later in the week and see what really happens.


I just got a reply back about the setup. Kelly actually has the setup available on their webiste, and they do connect two controllers together and program them specifically for the REGEN so the motor drive and regen drive are matched. http://www.kellycontroller.com/shop/?mod=product&cat_id=30&product_id=394

I also have a wiring diagram that was sent to me that I will post later.


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## Taztech (Dec 5, 2008)

I just got through reading all 119 posts in this thread, and I must say that the discussion was going right where I wanted to go until the Tommey incident. If I may ask, in some of the earlier posts back in April their were a few that said they bought Kelly controllers. How are they doing now? Anyone care to comment? How about No3rdseat? is your controller doing good for you? 

I too am teetering between a Curtis 1235C and the Kelly. But hey cheap is not a good deal if it don't work, right


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## MindMil (Jul 22, 2008)

Hi Taztech, my Kelly is still laying in the box waiting for its happy hour 
The delay is caused by couple factors: 1. Shipment of components: Motor (received Warp9 already) and LiFePO4 batteries (still waiting). 2. Readiness of safety protection and parameters measurement circuit. 
The protection controller circuit will make several functions which I think are vital:
- Monitoring controller temperature 
- Monitoring motor temperature
- Monitoring current from batteries
- Monitoring batteries voltage
- Monitoring voltage on the motor
- Monitoring current on the motor
- Monitoring motor RPM
- Log the measurements to the file
- Warning signal if any of these parameters is comming close to dangerous values
- Shut off the contactor if any of these values exceed the limit threshold
This would allow me to measure actual performance of the controller without damaging anything. It would also allow to have data at hand if any argument would rise with Kelly.


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## Taztech (Dec 5, 2008)

MindMil said:


> Hi Taztech, my Kelly is still laying in the box waiting for its happy hour
> The delay is caused by couple factors: 1. Shipment of components: Motor (received Warp9 already) and LiFePO4 batteries (still waiting). 2. Readiness of safety protection and parameters measurement circuit.
> The protection controller circuit will make several functions which I think are vital:
> - Monitoring controller temperature
> ...


That is the same reasons I really want a Kelly controller. The monitoring capability has a really strong appeal to me. If i just wanted a standard controller i would go with Curtis no question. But i don't want all the bells and whistles at the price of buying a controller every year or two, or at reduced performance. 

I have been reading the posts that *Tesseract*did back in October about post-mortem kelly controller, and frankly it has me a little disturbed. but i noticed that kelly supposedly has a "B" version of their controller. Does that mean that they have been redesigned?

Is any one else aware of this, or I'm i just dreaming?


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

I believe there have been design changes, and they have lowered the ratings on some of their controllers. I don't know if that has solved all the problems though.


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## MindMil (Jul 22, 2008)

Taztech said:


> That is the same reasons I really want a Kelly controller. The monitoring capability has a really strong appeal to me. If i just wanted a standard controller i would go with Curtis no question. But i don't want all the bells and whistles at the price of buying a controller every year or two, or at reduced performance.
> 
> I have been reading the posts that *Tesseract*did back in October about post-mortem kelly controller, and frankly it has me a little disturbed. but i noticed that kelly supposedly has a "B" version of their controller. Does that mean that they have been redesigned?
> 
> Is any one else aware of this, or I'm i just dreaming?


Taztech, I might have put it in a bit misleading way. The functions that I've listed will not be done by the Kelly controller itself. I am building the additional microprocessor module which will measure these parameters around in will disable the Kelly controller by disengaging main contactor if something goes wrong. I'm calling this module Battery and Car Management System (BCMS). It will work as integrated car management system for batteries, instruments and safety parameters. 
Part of the reason why I'm building it is that I don't trust Kelly controller itself. But I would not go for Curtis because I think it is an overpriced whining stone-age artefact.


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## broncoa (Dec 19, 2008)

the slashmaster said:


> I just noticed it says
> "144V regen model: has a max operating voltage is 180V." Just what does this mean? SInce it is 144 volts I thought that meant you can only use twelve 12 volt batteries. But you can use more than that? Does it mean you can have almost 180 volts worth of batteries but it will only give 144 to the motor?


I believe each 12 volt battery put out closer to 13.2 volts and times 12 raises up your voltage. It's made for 12 -12volt batteries though. There isn't much infor for these controllers. I can't get into my solfware through the 232 plug .
They don't show what to expect when I do get in .


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## broncoa (Dec 19, 2008)

gottdi said:


> You should be just fine. Take off the screws and put the side plate back on and screw it down again. Make sure they know first and that it's ok with them for you to do that without messing up the warranty. They have been very good and kind to me. I should be testing our modified Kelly SepEx controller here real soon. It is the 72 volt 600 amp sepex controller. Modified by Kelly Controller for our motors. We are happy so far. Later if all is well we plan on suggesting a few thing to them. But so far all is just fine. Damn good pricing. Their SOC gauge is cheap-o. Ugggg. Only complaint so far is that.
> 
> Pete : )


 I have a 120 volt kelly controller and can't access the soft ware 232 port any Ideas. I'm using their downloaded software. Not a lot of help or people to talk to as the rep on the phone is steve have a real accent and is hard to talk to. Where can I get info.


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## broncoa (Dec 19, 2008)

MindMil said:


> Hi Taztech, my Kelly is still laying in the box waiting for its happy hour
> The delay is caused by couple factors: 1. Shipment of components: Motor (received Warp9 already) and LiFePO4 batteries (still waiting). 2. Readiness of safety protection and parameters measurement circuit.
> The protection controller circuit will make several functions which I think are vital:
> - Monitoring controller temperature
> ...


Pete here: those thing are accested through the solfware right. I can't gain computer access through 232 port with their software can you. 313-308/6734 looking for kelly help.


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## broncoa (Dec 19, 2008)

KiwiEV said:


> What features does the RS232 plug give you on the Kelly controller?


I haven't been able to access my 232 port with kelly software. any Ideas
I used the vista download with232 to usb adaptor and software for that also.
kelly people speak with a heavy japinese accent and it's hard to talk to.


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## broncoa (Dec 19, 2008)

no3rdseat said:


> FWIW, I asked Kelly to include an RS232 cable and they did at no cost to me. I plugged the RS232 into my computer and the controller and tried to start the software on my PC but to no avail. I assume I need some sort of power and ground wiring to the controller in order for the serial port to work. So I have an e-mail into Kelly to find out what needs to be hooked up in order to bench test the unit.
> 
> -Rick


pete here :I have not been able to access the controller with their 232 adaptor software and 232 adaptor to usb and that software. let me know what you find out. kelly people are hard to understand with the accent.


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## TheSGC (Nov 15, 2007)

The Kelly controller needs the 12 volt system to be on to program it. If the controller is not powered on with the 12 volts on, the software won't even boot. 

I have a Kelly KDH09401 and I can program it just fine with my RS232 connection on my ancient IBM laptop, which happens to be the only computer with a serial port I have.


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## m38mike (Dec 27, 2008)

I have a kelly KDH14650B contoller in my converted Willys jeep. We have had no problem adjusting the settings in it using the RS232 port. We do have to have the 12v power on for it to work. Our problem has been finding the right combination of settings to get the controller to pass enough power to the Warp11 motor to get the jeep running the way it should be. With the Warp11 motor, that jeep should fly, but so far we're just strolling. We are continuing our testing on this point. 

We have not had any overheating problems with the controller. But we do have a 100 cfm computer fan moving air around the controller continuously. 

This controller is rated at 650 amps max and 260 amps continuous. The best we've been able to get from it is 110 amps. With all of the user-set settings in the software there are dozens - if not hundreds - of possible combinations of settings for this controller. With the holidays we've suspended our work on it in favor of other family activities. But I'm hoping to get back on it by this weekend. If anyone has set up their Kelly controller to work well, I'd really like to see what your settings were set to. So far we've taken the cautious approach and not set each setting to it's top limit. As I'm typing this, I'm thinking that going to the limit on each setting may be what we need to do to get performance, then back down each setting individually to see the change in performance. Thoughts on that???


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

If the controller is properly designed and manufactured I would say that makes sense. Just be aware that putting everything to maximum might show up any weakness in the controller, with potentially problematic results.
Since it's not giving you the performance you need as it is you might as well crank it up and see what happens.


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## MindMil (Jul 22, 2008)

I'm still waiting for my batteries to arrive and working on data collection circuit to test the controller setup. 
It is strange that it does not give good power. I think you could film the setting you make for controller and the test run and put it on youtube. It might be useful for discussion and also to show to Kelly support. I would suggest to put at least voltmeter and ammeter and your connections layout visible in video so you could have some proof of problems that might occur and submit them to Kelly if something seriously wrong happens. I will do this along with many parameters logging to computer when I start testing my KDH14651B.


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## Jozzer (Mar 29, 2009)

Hi there,
I use Kelly controllers in motorcycle builds, and would say that the model you have isn't powerfull enough for a jeep.
To get max power, try it on "torque mode", with full current, and set the LVC a good bit lower than you think the LVC should be set. The Kelly will start limiting current from 6v above the LVC setting to preserve battery voltage. I wouldn't worry about trying max power, the Kelly's are well limited to protect themselves from what I've seen.
Current is limited motorside on these controllers, chances are you'll not see much more than half the controllers rating batteryside..

I've used 650A Kelly's on small Agni/Lynch motors and not got them warm, I doubt even the 1200A models will really get that 11" beast singing.

Overall, I've used some 8 Kelly's, and found them to be reliable and nicely settable. The recent models have excellent regen (on all but the series models of course), throttle controll is nice too..current based, not speed/voltage based. Noticeably different/better than the feel of an Alltrax.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

He's got a bigger problem at the moment:










http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showthread.php/my-electro-willys-needs-help-25633p3.html


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## m38mike (Dec 27, 2008)

Jozzer,
After several months of failure using the Kelly KDHB controller, I got rid of it. I never was able to run more than 110 amp hours through it, with the gauge measuring battery amp hours. I was never able to drive more than 40 mph, and most of the time I could only go 30 or less. 

I replaced it with a rebuilt Logisystem 1000a controller. Here's a photo of my new setup.










In the upper left corner I have a 160v-250a breaker inside a 2 inch conduit pull box. The cable out the bottom leads to my contactor. The black box is my Zivan 1500 charger. The silver box is the Logisystem controller. I added a heatsink to the bottom of the controller to help with cooling. My next job is to color code and organize all those little red wires. 

Anyway, I haven't had a chance to work the Logi- controller yet. As JRP3 so clearly pointed out, my motor's broken, and I don't have it back yet from Netgain.


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## Jozzer (Mar 29, 2009)

I didnt notice how old the last post was..

That's sad, hope you get your motor back soon! Look forward to hearing how the Logi stacks up..


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