# Balqon/Winston/Thundersky batteries at <$1/AH



## bjfreeman (Dec 7, 2011)

they are Yellow TS that Winston took over. Winston changed to Black for thier batteries.
my Guess it these have been sitting for a while, so the 3% discharge will effect the first charge voltage.
I am tempted to get the 1000AH @$850 per cell. that is a little less than double what my 100AH cost me in 2005.
if the one cell checks out, expect to use 4 for my House batteries, and see what I have to do about a battery box for 115 cells.


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## meanderingthemaze (Jan 25, 2010)

bj,
Please come back and let us know how it goes with the single cell. I would love to see a big conversion with 115 of those 1000AH cells. That would be absolutely ridiculous. 
take care


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## jeremyjs (Sep 22, 2010)

meanderingthemaze said:


> bj,
> Please come back and let us know how it goes with the single cell. I would love to see a big conversion with 115 of those 1000AH cells. That would be absolutely ridiculous.
> take care


What could you put these things in short of a big rig? What else would take the weight.


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## meanderingthemaze (Jan 25, 2010)

I dunno. 115 cells would be a lot. But you could probably do something with a 120V system. F-450?


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## bjfreeman (Dec 7, 2011)

meanderingthemaze said:


> bj,
> Please come back and let us know how it goes with the single cell. I would love to see a big conversion with 115 of those 1000AH cells. That would be absolutely ridiculous.
> take care


It is a 30 ft converted bus, 250KW electric and next year plan to put four 250KW on.
on level the Motor coach takes about ~96KW @60 mph.
we have 30-50% grades here. Mountain passes are 5-10 miles of 15% grade.


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## bjfreeman (Dec 7, 2011)

for 115 cells roughly 8,855 lbs for a GW vehicle of 10,000 lbs.
each cell is 
22 inches long
17 inchees high
5.1 inches thick.

in comparison the Ballard 150KW fuel cell is 900LBS and $480K.


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## dougingraham (Jul 26, 2011)

bjfreeman said:


> my Guess it these have been sitting for a while, so the 3% discharge will effect the first charge voltage.


There is no measurable self discharge with these cells. The datasheets from all the vendors say <3% and that is not a lie as zero is less than 3%. Unless the cell has been used since it was manufactured it will be sitting at around 3.30 volts depending on the temperature. This will be somewhere between 50 and 55% state of charge. I don't see any evidence of self discharge in the almost 6 months my batteries have been sitting since I cycle tested them for capacity.


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## octagondd (Jan 27, 2010)

They only have small quantities of most the sizes, except 90AH I think. I wonder if they will receive Sinopoly cells or if they are just selling off before going under.


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## bjfreeman (Dec 7, 2011)

dougingraham said:


> There is no measurable self discharge with these cells. The datasheets from all the vendors say <3% and that is not a lie as zero is less than 3%. Unless the cell has been used since it was manufactured it will be sitting at around 3.30 volts depending on the temperature. This will be somewhere between 50 and 55% state of charge. I don't see any evidence of self discharge in the almost 6 months my batteries have been sitting since I cycle tested them for capacity.


due to the narrow voltage band, till you hit the 80% knee.
the only way to evaluate is charge till you reach the 0.5C rate.


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## EVfun (Mar 14, 2010)

octagondd said:


> They only have small quantities of most the sizes, except 90AH I think. I wonder if they will receive Sinopoly cells or if they are just selling off before going under.


It is my understanding that Balqon is a part of Winston Battery Company. Sinopoly and Winston are the results of an ugly breakup of Thunder Sky.


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## octagondd (Jan 27, 2010)

Yes, sorry didn't mean to confuse things. I meant will Balqon sell the new Winston cells?


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## ricklearned (Mar 3, 2012)

octagondd said:


> They only have small quantities of most the sizes, except 90AH I think. I wonder if they will receive Sinopoly cells or if they are just selling off before going under.


Yes, I saw that too. I emailed them a week ago about larger quantities but have not heard back. They are in Harbor City which is less than 30 minutes from where I live so I am tempted to call them and/or visit. I need 32 or 36 100Ahr batteries but the website only shows 12 or 14 available. My plans call for a Phase 2 addition of another 36 batteries so I want to do business with a company that will be around for at least a year. LOL

I had never heard of the name, Balqon, until I went to an EV show at the LA Convention Center. On prominent display, in one of the booths facing the entrance was a big rig tractor. Apparently it was part of a large conversion they did for the Port of Los Angeles. That was several weeks before I saw the ad for their store so I missed the opportunity then to talk to a person.


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## bjfreeman (Dec 7, 2011)

the ones on Ebay are 240 AH to 1000 and have 200 units.
think it is just a clearance sale.

as a note, they have removed the Batteries from their site.


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## MN Driver (Sep 29, 2009)

From which site? I see 260Ah, 400Ah, 700Ah, and 1000Ah cells on ebay and there are still cells found through the OP's post. I just verified right now.

http://www.ebay.com/sch/bigstevo112...hargeable_Batteries&rt=nc&_trksid=p4340.l2562


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## batterybill (Jun 6, 2012)

meanderingthemaze said:


> Has anyone dealt with Balqon? It appears they recently began an effort to distribute cells directly to consumers at very competitive prices. What's everyone's take on this?
> 
> http://balqon.com/store.php#ecwid:category=2736691&mode=category&offset=0&sort=priceAsc


It seems like they just installed 1.1 Mwhr system at University of Riverside and got contract for another 2 MW system for same university. Seems to me they are adding energy storage products to the electric truck line. They are publicly traded so seems reasonable


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## skooler (Mar 26, 2011)

Just to clear things up here as there is a little bit of misinformation.

Thundersky split into Winston and Sinopoly.

Winston continue to make yellow cells.

Sinopoly now make black cells (the 60AH (B) cell is green)

Balqon is a reseller for Winston cells.

Balqon sounds like an evil company from Austin Powers.

Hope this helps,

Cheers,

Mike


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## batterybill (Jun 6, 2012)

MN Driver said:


> From which site? I see 260Ah, 400Ah, 700Ah, and 1000Ah cells on ebay and there are still cells found through the OP's post. I just verified right now.
> 
> http://www.ebay.com/sch/bigstevo112...hargeable_Batteries&rt=nc&_trksid=p4340.l2562


Called them today, found out that after success at University of Riverside, they seem to be taking this battery business more seriously, I heard more batteries like 60 ahr and 100 ahr are on their way. Also found out they are exclusive distributor of Winston batteries in North America. Sounded like company focused on EV truck business trying to get into battery storage business, like Tesla, Coda etc. I like the price though and they said the charge discharge 2 times before shipping any batteries.


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## batterybill (Jun 6, 2012)

This is what I see on the UCR project, seems like getting DOE funds to install another 2 Mwhr with Solar panels http://ucrtoday.ucr.edu/6121 looks like 1000 ahr are meant for energy storage


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## batterybill (Jun 6, 2012)

Thanks for the clarification, all these different colors are confusing, for all we know they come from same factory


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## batterybill (Jun 6, 2012)

I actually talked to them, seems like they are gearing up for smaller cell business. I like the price, but looking at the website they seem to be more geared towards building trucks and buses


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## bjfreeman (Dec 7, 2011)

MN Driver said:


> From which site? I see 260Ah, 400Ah, 700Ah, and 1000Ah cells on ebay and there are still cells found through the OP's post. I just verified right now.
> 
> http://www.ebay.com/sch/bigstevo112...hargeable_Batteries&rt=nc&_trksid=p4340.l2562


senior moment
I went to http://balqon.com/ and did not see the batteries
but the link is:
http://balqon.com/store.php#ecwid:category=2736691&mode=category&offset=0&sort=priceAsc


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## wguinon (Sep 26, 2010)

Is the beginning of the price breakthrough many of us have been waiting for? Any thoughts on interconnects?


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## Ziggythewiz (May 16, 2010)

If it pans out I'd call it progress, but it's no breakthrough.


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## bjfreeman (Dec 7, 2011)

Ziggythewiz said:


> If it pans out I'd call it progress, but it's no breakthrough.


In my view if you have a price that will not go lower for long time and it starts to drop, that is a breakthrough in the floor of the price and it is progress to less expensive batteries.


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## bjfreeman (Dec 7, 2011)

I received this email today:

We can ship via courier door-to-door or by land/sea to your nearest 
international port.

Please let me know what cells you're interested in so I can give you a quote for 
your reference.

Thanks
Peter


Everspring Global Limited, www.everspring.net,
The authorized distributor of Winston batteries (formerly Thundersky) with 12 months warranty against manufacturing defects.
Avoid buying Winston batteries from unknown sources which will not be able to provide Warranty


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## ricklearned (Mar 3, 2012)

What is the connection between Balqon and Everspring?


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## bjfreeman (Dec 7, 2011)

ricklearned said:


> What is the connection between Balqon and Everspring?


None that I know of. However others are saying that Balgon is saying it is the authorized distributor, and Everspring is making the same claim.
Everspring is out of china.
Independent of the this thread, I am always looking for Products for my Eccommerce site.

As a side note the Balgon site, over the weekend, had a price of $850 for the 1000ah, and now they have jumped it up a $100, so now it matches the buy it now price on Ebay.


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## jeremyjs (Sep 22, 2010)

I found this while doing some digging. 
http://articles.latimes.com/2011/oct/15/business/la-fi-winston-chung-20111015


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## batterybill (Jun 6, 2012)

bjfreeman said:


> None that I know of. However others are saying that Balgon is saying it is the authorized distributor, and Everspring is making the same claim.
> Everspring is out of china.
> Independent of the this thread, I am always looking for Products for my Eccommerce site.
> 
> As a side note the Balgon site, over the weekend, had a price of $850 for the 1000ah, and now they have jumped it up a $100, so now it matches the buy it now price on Ebay.


Found this on BALQON website, Winston Chung is the Chairman of the Board and owns 42% of Balqon, so must be legit http://www.balqon.com/board-of-directors.php?PHPSESSID=f42a3fc04866ab1fd6dc01e698a624d3


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## meanderingthemaze (Jan 25, 2010)

I also spoke with them and they claim the better pricing due to having a special relationship with Winston battery (ie: because Winston is the largest shareholder). Sounds like if you're going to order these cells, that you should order directly from them. It sounds like they are the closest things to ordering direct from a Winston Battery plant. Interesting that a previous linked article mentions that Winston is planning to build a battery plant here is So Cal. Now that could be a breakthrough. 

Also interesting that the larger cells have been increasing in price. When I first found them, you could order the 1000AH cells $600 for 10+ or $595 for 100+ qt'y. The 700AH cells also raised in price. 

One of the best things they said was that they give you a 5 year warranty as opposed to the typical 1 year warranty. They told me after the first year, the warranty coverage would be prorated, however.

Finally, they said that they are getting battery shipments twice a month. Now, of course, the type and size of those orders probably depend largely on demand but it sounds like they can respond relatively quickly to requests for specific sizes/qt'ys. 

I'm curious to see how any sales go. Please post your results if you end up buying from them.


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## bjfreeman (Dec 7, 2011)

since they are on Ebay I can use my Paypal account and have double buyers protection.
so they are the prime candidate for me.
you have raised my expectations, but I am still only ordering one 1000 AH. I am a hands on person, even though I have all the facts and figures, I like the real thing in my hands to evaluate.


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## meanderingthemaze (Jan 25, 2010)

Well I feel I must say that since I've never dealt with this company, always remember: caveat emptor. 

I am not endorsing them, merely sharing information. I am just as eager as you all to find out if these lower priced cells are going to bring the market prices down and ultimately make it easy for us all to convert with good products. 

And I appreciate you taking the leap for us bjfreeman!


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## bjfreeman (Dec 7, 2011)

meanderingthemaze said:


> Interesting that a previous linked article mentions that Winston is planning to build a battery plant here is So Cal. Now that could be a breakthrough.


Just to clarify it is a lithium sulfphur battery. this is the closest thing I found to explain the differences.
http://www.everspring.net/product-battery.htm


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## dreamer (Feb 28, 2009)

The specs show just 3C as max discharge current. So you'd need the 300AH cells to even do justice to a Soliton 1. A medium voltage pack of 60 cells means $18,000 for a 1200 lbs pack with 45KWH usable. 

That makes for an expensive, heavy pack if you don't happen to need 150+ mile range. If you want performance and a 75 mile range, $12,000 of Headway 8P cells would do it with less weight, less space, and more power.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

I can easily pull 550 amps, 5.5C, for short bursts from my 100ah CALB prismatics, similar to Winston/TS/Sinopoly.


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## somanywelps (Jan 25, 2012)

JRP3 said:


> I can easily pull 550 amps, 5.5C, for short bursts from my 100ah CALB prismatics, similar to Winston/TS/Sinopoly.


Winston(TS) is much higher. It's 20C.


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## dladd (Jun 1, 2011)

somanywelps said:


> Winston(TS) is much higher. It's 20C.


For the big rectangular block type cell? I don't think so.


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## bjfreeman (Dec 7, 2011)

maybe we need to put in the chemistry of the battery when making comparisons.
Like TS is lithium _yttrium_ (LYP) cells.
Operating Voltage: 2.8-4.0V
Nominal Voltage: 3.2V
Max Discharge Current (Continuous): << 3CA
Max Discharge Current (pulse): << 20CA
Standard Charge/Discharge Current 0.5CA
Cycle Life: (80%DOD) 3000
Cycle Life: (70%DOD) 5000
W*Hr/ Litre 330
Watts/Kg 720


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## Yabert (Feb 7, 2010)

somanywelps said:


> Winston(TS) is much higher. It's 20C.


Just no! The physical laws are the same for Winston, TS, Sinopoly or Calb...


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## bjfreeman (Dec 7, 2011)

ran across this
*Balqon Corporation (OTCBB: BLQN) Cleaning Up Container Handling Industry At U.S. Ports*


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## 3xe-electric-cars (Jun 7, 2012)

Here you will find overall comparison of LiFePO4 battery parameters from different vendors:

Pdf document: http://3xe-electric-cars.com/images...rameter-Sinopoly-Winston-CALB-GBS-Headway.pdf

Remember, that given data shows maximal currents. If you will often use these batteries in heavy duty conditions - lifespan of batteries can be reduced.



Graphic files:
 ...........  ...........


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## rmay635703 (Oct 23, 2008)

It looks like their prices have gone up. $0.95 an amp hour


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## Ziggythewiz (May 16, 2010)

Those are some handy charts. Someone must want to sell some batteries or somethin...


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## dreamer (Feb 28, 2009)

They apparently don't want to sell Headways. They show max discharge at 6C when Headway specs their regular cells at 10C and their high power cells at 20C.


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## dreamer (Feb 28, 2009)

JRP3 said:


> I can easily pull 550 amps, 5.5C, for short bursts from my 100ah CALB prismatics, similar to Winston/TS/Sinopoly.


I suspect the warranty goes out the window if you do that to cells they have spec'd at only 3C.


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## jeremyjs (Sep 22, 2010)

dreamer said:


> I suspect the warranty goes out the window if you do that to cells they have spec'd at only 3C.


They're rated at 8C for 10s or less bursts.


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## 3xe-electric-cars (Jun 7, 2012)

dreamer said:


> They apparently don't want to sell Headways. They show max discharge at 6C when Headway specs their regular cells at 10C and their high power cells at 20C.


Sorry - there was a mistake in document. It is already corrected.
Headways max charge current (model: 38120S = 10Ah) is 6C and discharge current is 15C. This is quite optimal model from power and capacity and cost point of view. Headway has also high power 8Ah (38120P = 8Ah) cells and high capacity 15Ah cells (40152S = 15Ah).


Again - these are maximal current values.

Please remember, that material (cathode-anode) wear is faster when charging-discharging process is faster. 

To explain it in pictures.... 
It works somehow like in TETRIS video game:










If the GAME SPEED (charge-discharge CURRENT) is higher, BRICKS (IONS)are falling faster on the surface in NON ORGANIZED way. It makes the working material surface less efficient and it reduces usable capacity of the battery.


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## dreamer (Feb 28, 2009)

jeremyjs said:


> They're rated at 8C for 10s or less bursts.


Not according to the specs at the balqon site. They clearly say 3C.


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## jeremyjs (Sep 22, 2010)

dreamer said:


> Not according to the specs at the balqon site. They clearly say 3C.


Calb 100 ah cells are. I was commenting on a comment on JRP3's post. He was talking about his calbs.

The Balqon site doesn't reference the 10s rating at all.


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## bjfreeman (Dec 7, 2011)

winston cells use the rating of "impulse current"


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## [email protected] (May 16, 2012)

I'm confused. The Winston website describes LYP as Lithium Yttrium, yet the Balqon website describes LYP as Lithium Iron Phosphate. Is this a convenient translation typo?


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## 3xe-electric-cars (Jun 7, 2012)

LiFePO4 = Lithium Iron Phosphate
LiFeYPO4 = Lithium Yttrium Iron Phosphate (Lithium Iron Phosphate + Yttrium)

New cells from Winston are LiFeYPO4...


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## DanGT86 (Jan 1, 2011)

My curiosity got the best of me and I want batteries so I called Balqon on Friday. I got an actual person on the phone on the first try. I have been in email contact with the manufacturing supervisor for the last few days and he has been helpful and very prompt with responses. Excellent email communicator and has left no question unanswered. 

Here is what I know so far:
-Yes they are new winston batteries
-The 90ah cells I was looking for were manufactured in Jan 2012 and the ones in thier warehouse were made in April
-Prices in the online store are real
-Online store will/should be updated every time they order
-Not a one time deal or overstock sale. They plan on being in the battery business for good
-No additional customs taxes or extras unless its a really strange size they don't stock. 
-shipping from california to me in Missouri was reasonable just a bit higher than other US distributors I have gotten quotes from
-They do carry busbars washers and bolts for the corresponding cell sizes. 
-They are not setup for credit cards. I still need to ask about paypal because I have seen them sell on ebay with paypal as an option.

Other than the credit card thing its all good news. Almost seems too good to be true. I have friends and family about a 20 min drive from there so I might try to have them conduct some of this business in person if I order from them. Maybe double check the inspection report or watch the truck get loaded. Something to make me feel like I didnt send thousands into the mystery internet world. I am very suspicious of every step in the lithium batt buying process because of all of the past fraud stories I have heard. 

These guys are looking really good so far. Now I just need to find out more about the Winston 90ah cell. I am a little unclear about the whole TS/sinopoly/winston thing and the 90ah seems like a strange size.


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## ndplume (May 31, 2010)

Dan,
I'm glad things are going smoothly there. About the 2nd day that they had their pricing at $0.95/AH, I ran a test order for 4 of the 40AH cells. Just to make a 12V battery. I too talked to them on the phone, they asked for the battery costs up front, I'd pay shipping after they arrived.
So I sent them a check for the bill ~$150.
About a week later after they had my check, I rec'd an email saying they were returning my check and that they could not process the deal. 
Nothing more. I haven't rec'd my check yet, but I expect it any day. It hasn't been cashed. 

The 1 observation I can make is that the prices of their batteries has increased significantly from 0.95 cents.

see you in the ether

Mike


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## Ziggythewiz (May 16, 2010)

How bout asking what's with the price increases, even during the life of this thread. Also, IIRC it showed # in stock before, and now does not on the one I checked.


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## ricklearned (Mar 3, 2012)

I just placed an order for 32 100Ahr batteries and paid via Paypal. I requested to will call the batteries since I live less than 20 minutes from Harbor City. I will call them in the AM to see about the status of my order.


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## ricklearned (Mar 3, 2012)

Before I called them, I double checked the measurements against the under the seat boxes that I have already built. It was a good thing because I discovered that I was not going to get same number of cells in those boxes so I decided to switch to 90 Ahr and order 36 of those instead of the 32 100Ahr I had ordered last night. It works out to be very close to the same Watt/Hrs (10k) either way. My plan for phase two will be to order another 36 cells and put those where the back seat was.

I called and Steve in the order department took my information and I also ordered the copper straps that they sell for $3 each. The bolts and washers come with the cells. Steve sent me a new invoice, which I paid via Paypal and soon I got an email back saying my order was being processed and it would be available tomorrow morning. He said they inspect and package each order.


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## ricklearned (Mar 3, 2012)

I picked them up this morning and I have tested and inspected them. They all tested at 3.31 volts. 30 of them had sequential serial numbers and were in their original shipping container which was in very good shape. Six others were packed with the hardware. I purchased copper straps for an additional $3 per strap. The bolts and washers were included.

Pictures of the shipping container are on my build thread.


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## PStechPaul (May 1, 2012)

I'm trying to figure out if these batteries would be a good fit for my small tractor project. Here is the Balqon web page for batteries:
http://www.balqon.com/store.php#ecw...ct11900673&mode=category&offset=0&sort=normal

Since I plan to use a DC-DC converter and a 240 VAC motor, the voltage of the battery pack is not as critical as the total W-Hr. So the Balqon cells are 2.8-4.0V each, and probably 3.5V average. I'd like to get about 2400 W-Hr which should run my 2HP tractor for at least an hour. 

So the 40 A-H cell is about 140 W-Hr and 16 of them give me 2240 W-Hr at 56V nominal. The cells are 1.5 kg so 53 lb total, and at $44 each that's $704. They are rated at 2000 charge/discharge cycles. 

Two deep cycle 100 A-Hr lead-acid batteries cost about $200, weight is about 120 lb, and good for about 500 cycles.

So I'd pay 3.5 times as much for 4 times the cycle life. Not bad. The two lead-acid batteries can be charged with simple inexpensive automotive chargers, while the LiPo cells require a specialized charger and a complex battery monitoring device. For a tractor the extra weight is good, while for a highway EV the weight is more critical. 

I might spring for the LiPo cells to use on my proposed larger 5HP tractor project. I'd need 2.5x the W-Hrs so for cost I'd be looking at $1800 vs $450. Weight would be 132 lb versus 310. And for homeowners and farmers the ability to get replacement batteries locally may be a major benefit. However, I'd like to get some experience with LiPo cells so maybe I'll keep looking for a bargain for some used cells, or just order some of the Balqon. 

I'd probably build my own monitor and charger system. I'd like to design a battery monitor system (BMS) that can be essentially built into a battery pack or even a single cell, and use wireless or CANbus communication to a central processor. I think I can also design a charger so that a single power connection can be applied with individul smart chargers to apply the right amount of charge to each battery, without having separate parallel connections to a BMS. Instead, it would be a "daisy chain" along the series battery connections. I need to chew on this idea with my brain for a while (reverse cannibalism?  ), and maybe start a new thread for technical details and discussion.


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## bjfreeman (Dec 7, 2011)

at the time I bought mine in 2005 was the high charge and discharge rate, along with the number of cycles, about 5,000 at the time.
look at the open source 10KW in the charger section.
if you want a starting point to learn BMS you can use the ZEVA BMS Circuit. do a search on it.
then you can decide if you want to buy a manufactured on.


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## EVfun (Mar 14, 2010)

You are a bit optimistic on the Watt hours per cell. They up to 4.0 volts at the end of charge, but when the charger is removed they will fall back to 3.4 volts. The nominal cell voltage (no load cell voltage) falls with the state of charge, down to 3.3 volts before 10% of the charge is used, and then almost steady at 3.3 volts until the last 20% where they start falling again. They also sag some under load. I'd recommend using 3.1 volts for just shy of 2 kWh from your proposed pack.


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## PStechPaul (May 1, 2012)

EVfun said:


> You are a bit optimistic on the Watt hours per cell. They up to 4.0 volts at the end of charge, but when the charger is removed they will fall back to 3.4 volts. The nominal cell voltage (no load cell voltage) falls with the state of charge, down to 3.3 volts before 10% of the charge is used, and then almost steady at 3.3 volts until the last 20% where they start falling again. They also sag some under load. I'd recommend using 3.1 volts for just shy of 2 kWh from your proposed pack.


In that case, then, I'd need even more of them. But the LiPo batteries may be able to provide a lot more of their stated A-Hr capacity (as translated to W-Hr) than a similar Lead-Acid battery. For automotive use, I think the LiPo batteries are the best way to go, if you want to use the vehicle for the usual everyday commuting and household use.

But for homeowner tractors, or for inexpensive conceptual automotive prototypes, the lead-acid batteries may be OK, especially if you can get by with no more than 4-6 of them and boost the voltage.

I found a thesis paper that mentioned new research on aluminum batteries that have the potential to provide 10x the storage capacity of Lead-Acid. But it seems they are not rechargeable, although there are still possibilities of using replaceable electrodes:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aluminium–air_battery

I'd hate to invest a pile of money in LiPo that will last for 5-10 years and then two years doen the road there's a huge breakthrough!


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

If you wait to build something expecting a breakthrough you won't ever build anything. Even if something appeared in a lab in the next few years it would probably be another 5-10 years before it went into volume production. Moderate improvements here and there are to be expected, major breakthroughs are not.


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## ndplume (May 31, 2010)

PSTech,
I completely agree about the buy now and a breakthrough product will come out. So take one for the team, sink about $12K into a nice pack ASAP so that in 2 years (or 6 months) the rest of us can get the same capacity for $4K and 1/2 the weight. You'll still have 10yrs of enjoyment from the pack, especially the 1st 6 months :^)


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## DanGT86 (Jan 1, 2011)

I tried to get an answer from balqon as to why the price jumped from 85 to 99 in three days. They are still willing to honor the original quoted price but did not give a reason for the price increase. If I had to guess I would bet that the batts in the online store were leftover from their non retail business(vehicles they build?) and they probably sold at a loss to get our attention. Now that the qty are running low they probably need to raise the price before the next shipment. Worst case they take a loss on what they have in stock. Having to honor .85/ah on an entire new shipment would be a big loss I would think. Still have no reason to believe they are a bad company to deal with. Communication has been great so far and ricklearned seems to be happy with his purchasing experience.


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## Baldbruce (Aug 1, 2011)

And now the price is at 1.1 per Ah.
Because they can......


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## ricklearned (Mar 3, 2012)

Baldbruce said:


> And now the price is at 1.1 per Ah.
> Because they can......


Or maybe they were naive as the the retail/diy market. If they are the sole distributer they are undercutting their dealers. $1.10 per Ah is still the best price I could find and I also saved freight but that is unique to my circumstances. They came packaged well for a delivery service, but the 30 cells in the wooden box would have to be shipped via freight.


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## bjfreeman (Dec 7, 2011)

I can't get rid of the feeling there is a lot of hype to purchase their batteries from those that have not really bought any.


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## ricklearned (Mar 3, 2012)

bjfreeman said:


> I can't get rid of the feeling there is a lot of hype to purchase their batteries from those that have not really bought any.


Not from me, I am happy with the value that I got for $3,800. It was a better value than I could find anywhere else on this side of the Pacific Ocean.


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## [email protected] (May 16, 2012)

3xe-electric-cars said:


> LiFePO4 = Lithium Iron Phosphate
> LiFeYPO4 = Lithium Yttrium Iron Phosphate (Lithium Iron Phosphate + Yttrium)
> 
> New cells from Winston are LiFeYPO4...


 
Spoke to several people at Balqon and the LYP batteries are actually LFP. It appears these was a mix up in the part numbering. Not that this has a major bearing on performance, but I thought you all should know what you are NOT getting.


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## alvin (Jul 26, 2008)

I ordered 40 , 90ah cells on Thursday and they arrived today (Tuesday).

That's a 2000 mile trip. Not bad.

Alvin


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## Ace_bridger (Nov 22, 2011)

Nice. Good work!!


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## bjfreeman (Dec 7, 2011)

were they banded or did you get the banding stuff to do it?
LOL probably the best mileage you will get from them.


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## alvin (Jul 26, 2008)

bjfreeman said:


> were they banded or did you get the banding stuff to do it?
> LOL probably the best mileage you will get from them.


 

No they aren't banded and I did not get the banding stuff to do it.

I wonder if zip ties would work. I've got some big ones.

Alvin


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## wguinon (Sep 26, 2010)

Balqon>Steven says "Swelling of the battery usually happens when you over charge these batteries. We have made a 12v pack out of the 260ah batterys and have had this with no clamping at all for the last 2 yrs., and have had success with no swelling."


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## dougingraham (Jul 26, 2011)

alvin said:


> No they aren't banded and I did not get the banding stuff to do it.
> 
> I wonder if zip ties would work. I've got some big ones.
> 
> Alvin


They dont need to be banded. If they swell up you are doing something wrong, usually overcharging.


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## Zappo (Sep 1, 2011)

meanderingthemaze said:


> I'm curious to see how any sales go. Please post your results if you end up buying from them.


Well, it was an interesting transaction, but I finally received my batteries from Balqon. They seem like a good company but they made a lot of mistakes at first. I was trying to purchase ninety 100Ah batteries. When I first tried to purchase batteries, their website wasn't working right. By the time it would let me check out, the prices had jumped. I emailed them and asked if they would honor the original price. The return email said they would and showed me how to order them for the lower price. After I ordered them, I received an email saying they thought I wanted 90Ah batteries. They said I could get 90Ah right away but 100Ah would take at least 8 weeks. I told them I could use the 90s.

They only refunded about $300. I told them that if I couldn't get the lower price, I would rather wait for the 100Ah. About that time Steve, the Production Manager got involved. He figured out what had happened and fixed it. I wasn't going to buy the jumpers from them but ended up using the difference in price to buy them rather than get a further refund.

The batteries arrived quickly and the shipping charges were very reasonable. I was surprised by two things about them. One is that they don't come with the bolts and washers. I thought I had read multiple posts that it is normal to get them. The other thing that concerns me a bit is that all of the batteries are basically fully discharged .2 to .45 volts. Again, I had read that most batteries are shipped partially charged and at a very stable value between the batteries. Now I need to look into the best method for initially charging these. It took about two weeks to ship from the time I placed the order. They said that was because the batteries were being fully tested so I have to assume it was intended to send them "empty".

(Sorry. Just found out my nice Fluke meter went bad. Thanks everyone).

Lots of work ahead of me now. I'll let you all know how it goes.


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## rmay635703 (Oct 23, 2008)

Zappo said:


> The other thing that concerns me a bit is that all of the batteries are basically fully discharged .2 to .45 volts.
> 
> Now I need to look into the best method for initially charging these. It took about two weeks to ship from the time I placed the order. They said that was because the batteries were being fully tested so I have to assume it was intended to send them "empty".
> 
> Lots of work ahead of me now. I'll let you all know how it goes.


.45v That doesn't sound right to me at all? If you plan on keeping the things you will need to charge v e r y slowly. Likely a 5w lightbulb charger or a fixed amperage/fixed voltage power supply.

My thought would be to contact them and state that the batteries are DOA.

Cheers
Ryan


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

That's basically discharged to zero, which is never good, and below their specs for the low voltage limit. Double check your volt meter readings and then contact Balqon immediately.


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## alvin (Jul 26, 2008)

Zappo

My batteries were at 3.331 volts per cell a few were at 3.332 volts.

Are you sure your meter is working? Mine are still in the box waiting for

me to finish painting the car. They have dropped to 3.329 volts now.

On the EVDL someone had discharged some cells to 0 volts and they 

came back. I think it takes a very low precharge current till they come 

up to 2.7 or something then bulk charge.

Alvin


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## Zappo (Sep 1, 2011)

alvin said:


> Zappo
> 
> My batteries were at 3.331 volts per cell a few were at 3.332 volts.
> 
> ...


I originally suspected that but hadn't tested it on a known good source yet. Just did. What do you know, even nice dependable (old) Fluke 77 meters can fail.  Thanks Alvin.

Just checked meter fuse. It's okay. AC works. Ohms works. Looks like its time to get a new meter.


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## ricklearned (Mar 3, 2012)

Zappo said:


> ....... They said that was because the batteries were being fully tested so I have to assume it was intended to send them "empty".
> 
> (Sorry. Just found out my nice Fluke meter went bad. Thanks everyone).
> 
> Lots of work ahead of me now. I'll let you all know how it goes.



So, if I interpret your edit correctly your Fluke went bad. 

We are all waiting breathlessly to find out if your batteries are okay. LOL
Let us know when you find out for sure.


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## Zappo (Sep 1, 2011)

ricklearned said:


> So, if I interpret your edit correctly your Fluke went bad.
> 
> We are all waiting breathlessly to find out if your batteries are okay. LOL
> Let us know when you find out for sure.


Yeah the Fluke (and my brain) went bad. Just went on a search of all my old meters. Since I'm mainly from an industrial AC background, I don't have another meter that accurately measures that low DC voltage. I'm sure the batteries are okay but I will have a new meter tomorrow.


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## PStechPaul (May 1, 2012)

Sometimes my meters have surprised me with oddball readings. Usually it's been due to a low battery, which usually causes high readings. I don't even know how many meters I have - probably at least 20 general purpose multimeters and boxes full of various analog and digital panel meters. I keep one meter, a Fluke 45, in current calibration so I can use it as a standard traceable to NIST. Then I can check other meters against it. I worked for (and currently work for) a calibration laboratory where they have standards of high precision traceable to NIST. Even there, I have found meters that have given wrong readings, so it's always wise to "seek a second opinion".


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## Zappo (Sep 1, 2011)

PStechPaul said:


> Sometimes my meters have surprised me with oddball readings. Usually it's been due to a low battery, which usually causes high readings. I don't even know how many meters I have - probably at least 20 general purpose multimeters and boxes full of various analog and digital panel meters. I keep one meter, a Fluke 45, in current calibration so I can use it as a standard traceable to NIST. Then I can check other meters against it. I worked for (and currently work for) a calibration laboratory where they have standards of high precision traceable to NIST. Even there, I have found meters that have given wrong readings, so it's always wise to "seek a second opinion".


Yeah, what's really embarrassing is that I'm a maintenance manager. I'm currently creating a bunch of Job Safety Analysis forms for various jobs. I have every one of them that has an electrician checking a circuit state "check with a known good meter". I don't think I will tell them what I did.


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## PStechPaul (May 1, 2012)

There are "proof testers" which verify the operation of high voltage probes. A company I worked for made them, along with "phasing sticks" which measured line to ground and line to line utility voltages up to 100kV. Here is one that provides about 5kV which is enough to make sure your equipment is functioning, where a false reading could have deadly consequences:
http://www.mitchellinstrument.com/hd-electric-pt5000b-5kv-proof-tester.html

For multimeters I usually just check a fresh AA cell.


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## martinwinlow (Sep 22, 2009)

@ dreamer - "The specs show just 3C as max discharge current..."

Yes, but that's 3C max CONTINUOUS. The specs on Winston's main site for the same cells give <= 20C 'impulse' current. So, for most small to medium sized cars a pack of as small as 100Ah cells would be fine for up to 70-80mph. http://en.winston-battery.com/index.php/products/power-battery/item/wb-lyp100aha?category_id=176


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## Baldbruce (Aug 1, 2011)

But what is their definition of impulse current? us? ms? s? minutes? I have never found this definition directly from the manufacturers. Can someone provide a link?


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## somanywelps (Jan 25, 2012)

Baldbruce said:


> But what is their definition of impulse current? us? ms? s? minutes? I have never found this definition directly from the manufacturers. Can someone provide a link?


5-10s depending on mfr.


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## Baldbruce (Aug 1, 2011)

Please provide a link to the manufacturer's information. I have heard many people's opinions and would like to know the source of those opinions. In particular I have found a section of Winston's Manual that has an 8 second pulse test at 10C. I should point out that this is a safety test, not a performance test though....
Appreciate your assistance in finding the source of information where I can apply 10 C to these cells and not damage them. Thanks,


----------



## ruckus (Apr 15, 2009)

The spec sheet for the LFP260aha Thundersky's used in the 37 Jag lists exactly what he told you.

Continuous current less or equal to 3C.
Impulse current less or equal to 20C.

On a 260ah cell that is 780A continuous and 5200A pulse!! 

With the Zilla 1000 amp max they will never see more than 3.8C

The motor brushes fail to deliver anything more than 3C (700A). But that is another issue many would rather ignore...


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## Baldbruce (Aug 1, 2011)

Again, simple question. What is the manufacturer's definition of pulse? I can clearly understand the continuous rating, but I am asking for clarity on what that pulse rating means for liFePO4. I worked in the 18650 LiCoO2 battery manufacturing bussiness for a while and that particular company measured impulse duration in the millisecond range. These large prismatics may very well be completely different than those small cells, but just asking for a link to more information.


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## Ziggythewiz (May 16, 2010)

For EV use pulse would be 10 sec or less. About what you might use from a light.


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## ruckus (Apr 15, 2009)

Ziggythewiz said:


> For EV use pulse would be 10 sec or less. About what you might use from a light.


+1 Yes, less or equal to 10 sec. This is this figure I have seen.

As for giving you links, sorry, you just have to take our word for it. Read it in several places several times but couldn't furnish a link unless I spent some time on it which I have very little to spare.

Maybe try Google? sorry.


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## Ziggythewiz (May 16, 2010)

Here's one site: http://www.calibpower.com/

Check any cell, max c rates range from 10 to 5.5C, but they all say <= 10 seconds for that max.


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## ruckus (Apr 15, 2009)

Ziggythewiz said:


> Here's one site: http://www.calibpower.com/
> 
> Check any cell, max c rates range from 10 to 5.5C, but they all say <= 10 seconds for that max.


Thanks, your google is good...


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## Ziggythewiz (May 16, 2010)

Nah, just memory. I was going there every day for a while, checking different specs. Should have just downloaded the site.


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## Baldbruce (Aug 1, 2011)

Thanks for the link Ziggy! CALB's website in China does not have this same information. Thanks for pointing out the US based portion of CALB's website data. So absolute max for the SE100AHA is 8C for 10S for example. Life rating is still based on 0.3C though. Wonder what the C rate versus cycle life chart would look like.


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## dtbaker (Jan 5, 2008)

Baldbruce said:


> So absolute max for the SE100AHA is 8C for 10S for example. Life rating is still based on 0.3C though. Wonder what the C rate versus cycle life chart would look like.



awful lot of variables in actual use that are hard to combine in lab tests... variable ambient temp, whether the pack has temp management, duration of high C draw, depth variable daily discharge, speed of recharge, balance of pack.

all boiling down to life of any individual cell dependent on thermal management and avoiding either end of the charge curve.

'real life' use reports just have to keep filtering in from individuals that have had their cars racking up the miles with driving conditions and builds similar to your own.


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## ruckus (Apr 15, 2009)

The se40ah and se60ah cells are rated for 10C.

The new CE series cells are supposedly good for 12C, but the pdf link at the CALB website doesn't work for me.

http://en.calb.cn/Product/?id-116.html


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## MN Driver (Sep 29, 2009)

I've been paying attention to what the sites for Thudersky(from when they were ThunderSky), Winston, Sky Energy, CALB, Sinopoly and HiPower have been saying.

ThunderSky never had a time frame on their short term 10C discharge but always said 3C constant discharge. ..this was when their 1C discharge chart showed plenty voltage sag to where under 3C they only got to about 40% SOC before dropping below 2.5v.

Winston current specs below, same thing for every cell, see what I say about Sinopoly below. The C ratings should be different for different cell sizes as the voltage sag is different but Winston battery charts are questionable because they take the exact data and put it on every cell size.
http://en.winston-battery.com/index.php/products/power-battery/item/wb-lyp40aha?category_id=182

Sky Energy and CALB have showed specsheets showing 10 second short term discharge at 400 amps for 40Ah cells, 600 amps for 60Ah cells, 700 amps for 70Ah cells, 800 amps for 100Ah, and 1000 amps for everything over 100Ah. I have yet to see a CA specsheet that was updated recently and this one is old but can be obtained if you can handle Chinese the way I can and track down the PDF file on their site, which it seems nobody else has. I haven't posted it to this forum because it seems outdated based on what's in it and that it hasn't been changed in the past 2 years or so but here you go.
http://www.calb.cn/UpLoadFiles/product.pdf

Sinopoly says 5C all around for everything from their 40Ah
http://www.sinopolybattery.com/ClientResources/201203261108482.pdf
to their 1000Ah cells
http://www.sinopolybattery.com/ClientResources/201207251417142.pdf
This doesn't make much sense to me and I think their 40Ah is probably just as capable of 10C and discussed their 20Ah cells via email with Sinopoly and they said they could be 200amps discharge with no problem for 15 seconds but hadn't shown the test results anywhere.
There was a document here showing voltage sag of 5C discharge from Sinopoly 100Ah cells and I think they could easily do more than 5C for a short period without overheating. This is just my opinion though and I understand why they might be cautious when creating specsheets.

HiPower their cells used to be geared towards lighter weight which they had some of the lightest cells you could put into a car but their discharge rates used to be the lowest amongst the prismatic that we could get here. They have since redesigned their cells and they seem to be much better at 3C continuous and 5C 60 seconds and 8C for 15 seconds. 
http://www.hipowergroup.com/uploadfile/2011/0115/20110115123901167.pdf
Wayne Alexander of ev-blue.com has been putting them into cars(recently saw a Saturn conversion in Wisconsin and spoke with the owner) so he must have a distributer and it might be worth asking him where he gets them.

I hope this helps, please keep in mind I haven't tested all of these cells and am merely commenting on data from specsheets and from the information that I know of people who actually have used these cells.

For Winston, ThunderSky, and CALB data there are charts from Jack Rickard showing the whole discharge. Simon showed incredible performance of 1976amps at only 2.74v sag from new 180Ah CA series cells. As far as Winston goes, I'm very curious to see something from Jack Rickard's 400Ah cells but I have a feeling I might not see any data from them unless he does a dynamometer test on the Escalade, which seeing as he has done the rest of his vehicles, I'm interested in seeing that too.

Voltage sag shows a direct correlation of the internal heating inside the cell, the less voltage sag, the less total internal heat created in a cell. IMHO if you can keep your LiFePO4 above 2.5v on a 10 second discharge you are in good shape for those 10 seconds. Obviously you don't want to be discharging a high rate from your cells and then pull down to 2.5v for 10 seconds because heat is cumulative and takes time to dissipate. If you are under 50C consistently measured directly at the cell terminals, I think you are in good shape for long cell life, again IMHO.


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## Semper Vivus (Apr 13, 2011)

The datasheets for the CA series are available on the Calb website now.
Datasheets say 2C max. for the CA


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## somanywelps (Jan 25, 2012)

Maybe they meant 20.

Whatever it is, it's better than the blue cells.


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## nucleus (May 18, 2012)

ruckus said:


> The se40ah and se60ah cells are rated for 10C.
> 
> The new CE series cells are supposedly good for 12C, but the pdf link at the CALB website doesn't work for me.
> 
> http://en.calb.cn/Product/?id-116.html


They have the pdf files compress into a rar file, you probably need something like Unarchiver to open up that rar file.

Keep in mind that Jack Rickard said that the latest booklet from CALB was complete nonsense.

Nucleus
(now in sunny Puerto rico)


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## ricklearned (Mar 3, 2012)

I am ready for another 36 cells to double my pack amperate to 180 Ahr. Two weeks ago I went to the Balqon website and the 90Ahr cells were out of stock with a two week lead time. I waited about 10 days and called Steve, the guy who handled my last transaction and he said they would be getting some more cells in stock in the next few days. He gave me a proposal at $85 per cell for 38 90Ahr cells (I wanted a couple of spares). I will pick them up tomorrow, since I live 20 minutes away from their warehouse in Harbor City, California.

Incidentally they were a no show at the Alt EV show in Sta Monica last week and their website still shows two week lead time for the 90 Ahr cells. They don't project a consumer friendly face but it works for me.


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## dtbaker (Jan 5, 2008)

wow, still under a buck/ah..... screaming deal. we'll count on you to check in and make sure the doors are open.  I happen to LIKE the 90ah-100ah size as it is a perfect fit for the 'average' daily use less than 50 miles with a good 144v or 156v set in a small vehicle.


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## ricklearned (Mar 3, 2012)

OK, I will post when I pick them up.
On the website the header description shows two week lead time but the product page shows 34 available.


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## alvin (Jul 26, 2008)

I bought 40 of the 90ah cells back in June. I did not get them out of the crates till a few weeks ago. While I was putting them in place I found one that was slightly swollen. The voltage was the same as all the others. 

I e-mailed Steven At Balqon and described it. He ask for pictures. That 
was on a Friday. Monday they picked up the old one,and the following Monday I had the new one.

They have very good customer service.

Alvin


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## ricklearned (Mar 3, 2012)

ricklearned said:


> OK, I will post when I pick them up.
> On the website the header description shows two week lead time but the product page shows 34 available.


I am a little late on my followup post . I picked up my batteries and the the guys in shipping remembered me. There were some of the tractor trucks there that they are converting from lead to Lithium. Ar that moment, Steve came by and introduced himself. He is in charge of production and is only filling in on sales while his coworker is on maternity leave. Steve explained that the early generation of electric tractor trailer trucks were only getting two hours per charge on lead acid batteries. He said that recent tests at a local company indicated that the Lithium conversions were getting in excess of 16 hours/day. That is a big difference. I looked at some of the 1000Ahr batteries that they are putting in those trucks.


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## jehu (Oct 28, 2012)

I ordered 33 90AH cells Nov 20th, The checkout process didn't prompt me to choose shipping method, I didnt care since i plan on picking them up, I'm only 30 mins away. I havent heard back from them.

I email Steve today asking when i can pick up my order.


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## Zappo (Sep 1, 2011)

jehu said:


> I ordered 33 90AH cells Nov 20th, The checkout process didn't prompt me to choose shipping method, I didnt care since i plan on picking them up, I'm only 30 mins away. I havent heard back from them.
> 
> I email Steve today asking when i can pick up my order.


That sounds like what I went through when I ordered 90 90AH batteries from them back in June. I was originally corresponding with Balwinder Samra. He wasn't making a lot of sense and I was getting pretty worried. Some of his email was from a company email address and some was his personal gmail account. Steve jumped in and straightened everything out. I've been really happy with the batteries I got from them.

Afterwards, I found out that Balwinder is the founder and CEO of Balqon. The company is mainly interested in building very large electric trucks. Pretty wild.


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## ElectriCar (Jun 15, 2008)

So what are their current prices?


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## alvin (Jul 26, 2008)

jehu said:


> I ordered 33 90AH cells Nov 20th, The checkout process didn't prompt me to choose shipping method, I didnt care since i plan on picking them up, I'm only 30 mins away. I havent heard back from them.
> 
> I email Steve today asking when i can pick up my order.


I ordered my cells in June and they did not have payment method set up on the web site yet. 
They e-mailed me a quote for the cells plus the jumpers and bolts and washers. I did not respond right away so they called me.

5 days after I pressed the pay now button I had my cells at my house.

It was a while before I put the cells in the car. While removing the cells from the crates I noticed one cell was a little fatter than the others.

I e-mailed Steven and he picked up the old one and brought a new one.

I am 2000 miles from them. I think that is very good service.

jehu call them on the phone. They always answer when I call.

Alvin


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## smpavlik (Mar 28, 2011)

alvin said:


> I ordered my cells in June and they did not have payment method set up on the web site yet.
> They e-mailed me a quote for the cells plus the jumpers and bolts and washers. I did not respond right away so they called me.
> 
> 5 days after I pressed the pay now button I had my cells at my house.
> ...


This is almost my story. There are few bad words before to say good one.
Really, Balgon didn't respond right away. It took me few days to get replied . By phone I was able to reach a receptionist but not always a technical or other person and online support is not always available. 

BUT

I've ordered 30 pcs 100Ah cells at <1$ in June. Balgon didn't have them in a stock so I've paid 10% deposit only. In August Steven contacted me and sent an invoice which I paid by PayPal. Shortly I've received the battery right to a door. Shipment was more expensive than I expected but later I realized that Stiven has found a pretty cheap carrier.

I started my tests in October. After first charge one of the cell swelled. I'm not sure was it my fault or the battery was defective, but anyways I tried to contact Balgon for warranty replacement. Again it took me few days phone and email conversation until I finally reached a proper person who agreed to replace the cell. The cell in his way now...

In general I'm satisfied with Balgon service


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## jehu (Oct 28, 2012)

I called today, machine answered and I left a message. I tried live help also but it came back as "No operator available to help you" but then Jennifer came online, she said my batteries are clearing customs and will be ready to pick up next week.

jehu


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## jehu (Oct 28, 2012)

Today my batteries finally arrived, picked them up at the Harbor city warehouse, FYI No bolts, no bus connecting bars


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## ruckus (Apr 15, 2009)

So many cells swelling. Are these factory seconds? I have not heard of Thundersky's have a bad cell in every batch. That seems suspicious. Has anybody tested the cells for Ah capacity or resistance consistency?


----------



## dtbaker (Jan 5, 2008)

smpavlik said:


> I started my tests in October. After first charge one of the cell swelled. I'm not sure was it my fault or the battery was defective,


before you blame the cell..... tell us what your intial balancing procedure was, charge curve + intended end-of-charge voltage for your pack, and whether or not you used a BMS.


----------



## smpavlik (Mar 28, 2011)

dtbaker said:


> before you blame the cell..... tell us what your intial balancing procedure was, charge curve + intended end-of-charge voltage for your pack, and whether or not you used a BMS.


Yes, you are right, it could be my fault. But this is a story:

Balqon told me the batteries were charged and tested before shipping. They said, nevertheless I must charge them before first use. I didn't have BMS at that time but I've checked voltage on all the batteries. Difference was around 0.05V and I've assumed they had approximately equal charge level. My charger has 10A current limit and voltage equal to 3.9V per cell. After 3 hours everything was done - the charger turned off, one battery was swollen and had 4.2V while others had around 3.9V.

Obviously, my fault was to charge the pack without BMS. From other side, if the battery were charged equally by Balqon ( not sure but want to believe), the swelled one had low capacity. 

Bottom line, BMS is a must!


----------



## ruckus (Apr 15, 2009)

At the end of a charge curve a cell can go ballistic in seconds... 

BMS converts are made one swollen cell at a time. 

You either need extreme care and monitoring, or yes, bms.

Not a plug for bms, just a heads up that one must be VERY careful when charging without one.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

The ending charge voltage was too high and the cells were not top balanced. You don't need a BMS to avoid those problems.


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## smpavlik (Mar 28, 2011)

JRP3 said:


> The ending charge voltage was too high and the cells were not top balanced. You don't need a BMS to avoid those problems.


End voltage wasn't high. According to the manufacturer, the end-voltage should be 4.0V for a single cell, and 3.9V per cell for a battery. 

You are right, BMS itself can't safe from the problem but BMS/monitor + a smart charger can do. The design is in progress now and this is a theme for a different thread


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Just because the manufacture lists a maximum doesn't mean it's a good idea to get near it. We know that keeping the end voltage down extends the life of the cell without giving up any significant capacity. CALB recommends 3.6V, and most of us keep it between 3.45 and 3.50.


----------



## smpavlik (Mar 28, 2011)

JRP3 said:


> Just because the manufacture lists a maximum doesn't mean it's a good idea to get near it. We know that keeping the end voltage down extends the life of the cell without giving up any significant capacity. CALB recommends 3.6V, and most of us keep it between 3.45 and 3.50.


Thank you. Good to know. Will do this way


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## ruckus (Apr 15, 2009)

JRP3 said:


> Just because the manufacture lists a maximum doesn't mean it's a good idea to get near it.


Well, sure, but the cells shouldn't SWELL within the factory limits.

Yes, bms will avoid this problem. Even a simple shunting bms will give you the extra seconds or minutes to catch that one cell is going bonkers. If you have one like the EV Power bms it will also shut off the charger if any single cell goes over 3.65v. These are not the $2000 bms everyone rails against. Just simple shunts and a relay to cut off the charger is all that is needed to avoid $12,000 in damage.

The next level down is a max voltage cutoff. This won't save the individual cell, but will save the pack if the charger goes nuts.

Running completely dependent on your charger is putting significant $$$ at risk.


----------



## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

The people who spent money on a BMS that subsequently failed and drained some cells would point out that a BMS also adds extra failure points. There is no perfect answer, each choice has it's own risks.


----------



## ruckus (Apr 15, 2009)

JRP3 said:


> The people who spent money on a BMS that subsequently failed and drained some cells would point out that a BMS also adds extra failure points. There is no perfect answer, each choice has it's own risks.


Well sure, but the number of 'swollen cells' from non bms seems many many times higher than the very rare bms 'failure' which I have never actually seen reported. (urban legend?)

The bms 'fires' that Jack likes to point to were all using chargers that had no voltage cut-off. The bms was responsible for turning off a contactor to stop charging. When the charger is going for the moon at full amps it is very likely the contactor was the failure point and not the bms controlling the relay to the contactor. Jack has had multiple contactor failures with heating unit loads. This proves that contactors are not able to stop a load reliably. 

I have heard zero reports of EV power bms failures or other shunting failures. I will guess there must be some out there, especially with all the home-brew stuff, but on the whole, charging without a bms has proven 'anecdotally' to be far more risky by than using one.

That said, on my next pack for the 36 International hot rod I am thinking of no bms, so don't think I am strongly in the bms camp. I am one of those 'undecided' bms voters that drives everyone nuts.

The 36 Jag bms has saved us multiple times. So there IS a value there..


----------



## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

ruckus said:


> Well sure, but the number of 'swollen cells' from non bms seems many many times higher than the very rare bms 'failure' which I have never actually seen reported. (urban legend?)


No, happened to people here on this forum.


> The bms 'fires' that Jack likes to point to were all using chargers that had no voltage cut-off. The bms was responsible for turning off a contactor to stop charging. When the charger is going for the moon at full amps it is very likely the contactor was the failure point and not the bms controlling the relay to the contactor. Jack has had multiple contactor failures with heating unit loads. This proves that contactors are not able to stop a load reliably.


Jack likes to blame every EV problem on a BMS, but most overcharging happens near, or past, the end of charge, when current has dropped, and would easily be switched by a contactor, so I doubt they are the failure points on their own.


> I have heard zero reports of EV power bms failures or other shunting failures. I will guess there must be some out there, especially with all the home-brew stuff, but on the whole, charging without a bms has proven 'anecdotally' to be far more risky by than using one.


As I mentioned that is not what we've seen, but I'd suggest not using a BMS does not mean doing nothing, it means you need to set up your pack with certain parameters.


> That said, on my next pack for the 36 International hot rod I am thinking of no bms, so don't think I am strongly in the bms camp. I am one of those 'undecided' bms voters that drives everyone nuts.


Really there is no definitive answer one way or the other, both can and do work well. Personally if I used a BMS I would not use a shunting one and just use them for monitoring, with a LVC/HVC backup for the controller and charger.


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## dtbaker (Jan 5, 2008)

smpavlik said:


> Yes, you are right, it could be my fault. But this is a story:
> 
> Balqon told me the batteries were charged and tested before shipping. They said, nevertheless I must charge them before first use. I didn't have BMS at that time but I've checked voltage on all the batteries. Difference was around 0.05V and I've assumed they had approximately equal charge level. My charger has 10A current limit and voltage equal to 3.9V per cell. After 3 hours everything was done - the charger turned off, one battery was swollen and had 4.2V while others had around 3.9V.
> 
> ...


several things you could have done better...

1. batteries *must* be top, or bottom, balanced in parallel before installation and charge in series... measuring resting voltage on delivery is no indication what their relative state of charge is. Any given set of batteries from manf will be 'about' 50% charged, but not nearly close enough to be considered balanced.

2. charger setting end-of-charge to a target of 3.9volts per cell is way too high. much safer is target of 3.5-3.6 vpc for the prismatic LiFePO4 cells

3. a BMS may not save a badly out of balance pack.... initial balance is critical to health of the pack. In fact if you do a good top balance initially in series, and measure/tweak down any high cells the first few cycles with a resistor, you really dont need a BMS.... as long as you stay away from the ragged bottom end of a top-balanced pack.


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## EVfun (Mar 14, 2010)

...looking the opposite direction from JRP3

If I put a "BMS" back on my cells it will be the EV Power modules I have and there will be no cell monitoring loop. The units will be used as simple 1/2 amp shunt regulators and my charger will continue to establish the peak voltage.

There have been a number of cell module shunt ON failures, mostly caused by making brief contact in reverse polarity during installation or being subjected to tiny currents at high voltage by not opening the pack from ALL loads before disconnecting a cell terminal bolt. There have been a few BMS system failures when used with non-isolated chargers. I believe Clean Power Auto has replaced a number of BMS head end boards from the damage that is possible with ground faults and line transients. These things where reported by members so a good search should be able to find a few.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

dtbaker said:


> 1. batteries *must* be top, or bottom, balanced in parallel before installation and charge in series...


It's not necessary to wire the whole pack in parallel, nor do I think it's worth the time. Just monitor them closely during the first charge or discharge, depending if you're top or bottom balancing, and adjust as needed. That's how I did it.


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## MN Driver (Sep 29, 2009)

The most infamous failures were from a voltage shunt device called the 'Volt Blocher'. Hardly a BMS because it didn't have a low voltage cutoff or high voltage charger trip circuit. It has been out of production towards the end of 2009 and during their use they would fail on and drain the cell it was attached to until it's voltage dropped until it had early death. Many people who used it now operate without a BMS or they went with Clean Power Auto's Mini BMS. I think those are decent, low cost, and can be operated with or without the shunt if desired. They were designed with the direction of others on this forum in late 2009, are a site supporter, and have an ad link on the right side of this site.

I personally am not in the BMS camp and prefer the discharged balancing method, but if I used one, it would either be that one or a simple per-cell or per-segment LVC or something that provides monitoring in a different fashion instead(such as the Batt Bridge).

Opinions, there are many on this forum. Takes due diligence and operational knowledge(and subsequent proper use) of lithium cells to make a sound decision that won't destroy your pack.


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## jehu (Oct 28, 2012)

Has anyone bought and received cells from Balqon lately? i ordered 4 cells 7 weeks ago and i havent heard from them, they haven't returned my email from last week and the live help thing on their site is offline, im kind of getting worried i lost 500 bucks.


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## dtbaker (Jan 5, 2008)

jehu said:


> Has anyone bought and received cells from Balqon lately? i ordered 4 cells 7 weeks ago and i havent heard from them, they haven't returned my email from last week and the live help thing on their site is offline, im kind of getting worried i lost 500 bucks.



please do keep us posted on this.... we need to know if the source has become unreliable...


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## skooler (Mar 26, 2011)

In case anyone doesn't know Winston has been dissolved.


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## dtbaker (Jan 5, 2008)

skooler said:


> In case anyone doesn't know Winston has been dissolved.


didn't Sinopoly survive that split, and that was what Balqon was using and distributing?


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## rmay635703 (Oct 23, 2008)

jehu said:


> Has anyone bought and received cells from Balqon lately? i ordered 4 cells 7 weeks ago and i havent heard from them, they haven't returned my email from last week and the live help thing on their site is offline, im kind of getting worried i lost 500 bucks.


This is too bad, their cells dissappeared off the website months ago and I was hoping a proxy could pick some up locally from them, too bad


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

dtbaker said:


> didn't Sinopoly survive that split, and that was what Balqon was using and distributing?


Winston and Sinopoly were split from Thundersky I believe, and Balqon was using and selling Winston. So it doesn't look good.


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## jehu (Oct 28, 2012)

I have 32 90AH Winston cells I bought a few months ago, the 4 I ordered 7 weeks ago was to complete my 36 cell pack. 7 weeks ago they were not in stock and had a 6 week lead time. Jennifer confirmed my order a few days after placing it, but that was the last time I heard from her, email last week has gone unanswered and A call this morning gave me an answering machine with "leave a your name and we'll get back to you" message. I paid using Paypal so the money transferred right away, I tried placing a claim using paypal yesterday before the time limit to do so runs out but paypal said this kind of transaction is not covered under paypal protection policy?...... Of course not, why would it be!

The interesting is that currently they have the 90AH cells on clearance for $80 What!? I'm about 40 minutes away from them i might just drive down there to see whats going on.


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## Ampster (Oct 6, 2012)

I live near there too. I got my batteries there also. I remember they had some contracts for putting big batteries in tractor trucks down at the harbor.


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## rmay635703 (Oct 23, 2008)

jehu said:


> The interesting is that currently they have the 90AH cells on clearance for $80 What!? I'm about 40 minutes away from them i might just drive down there to see whats going on.


if its not a scam go pick me up a set of 18 of those things off the dock 

I can pick them up in a few days.


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## jehu (Oct 28, 2012)

not looking good guys, got the same answering machine message again today.

Their Twitter account has been pretty active with a few tweets today https://twitter.com/balqon

West Coast Metrics, a company that provides restoration products for VWs is literally across the street from balqon in harbor city, I've had my brother ask the WCM see if they would be kind enough to walk across the street to see if the building has some life of if it has been abandoned. could save me a 40min drive down there


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Those all look like automatically generated tweets or something.


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## jehu (Oct 28, 2012)

Jennifer answered!!! my cells ready tuesday, looks like the $80 90Ah cells are in stock also, folks, the system shows 152 or so in stock, if you want some, paypal me the money and i'll pick them up for you.

I went ahead and ordered another 37 cells, not everyday you see $.88/1Ah cells


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## Stevie G (Apr 9, 2013)

jehu said:


> Jennifer answered!!! my cells ready tuesday, looks like the $80 90Ah cells are in stock also, folks, the system shows 152 or so in stock, if you want some, paypal me the money and i'll pick them up for you.
> 
> I went ahead and ordered another 37 cells, not everyday you see $.88/1Ah cells


How do I get that price? Their website still shows $1.10/Ah. Not bad, but 0.88 per is much better.


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## ndplume (May 31, 2010)

Stevie G said:


> How do I get that price? Their website still shows $1.10/Ah. Not bad, but 0.88 per is much better.


The ones he is talking about are in the clearance section. Try this link
http://www.balqon.com/store.php#!/~/product/category=4218089&id=24958960


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## Stevie G (Apr 9, 2013)

Thank you!
Now, if I can figure out a cheaper shipping method.
They only offer 1, 2, or 3 day from FedEx.


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## TexasCotton (Sep 18, 2008)

ndplume said:


> The ones he is talking about are in the clearance section. Try this link
> http://www.balqon.com/store.php#!/~/product/category=4218089&id=24958960


 Does anyone have some of these already and can comment about them.


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## Ampster (Oct 6, 2012)

TexasCotton said:


> Does anyone have some of these already and can comment about them.


I bought 36 a year ago from them at the $1.10 price. They have held up well. Read through the entire thread and you will see that others have also purchased some.


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## TexasCotton (Sep 18, 2008)

ndplume said:


> The ones he is talking about are in the clearance section. Try this link
> http://www.balqon.com/store.php#!/~/product/category=4218089&id=24958960


 Do these come in pre crated box quanity like say 50 cells.???


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## dtbaker (Jan 5, 2008)

TexasCotton said:


> Do these come in pre crated box quanity like say 50 cells.???



or, are these maybe a pile of odds and ends from open crates they are liquidating since they apparently aren't going to get any more with the demise of Winston?

I am wondering what Balqon is going to switch to since they are *probably* continuing to try and build electric buses themselves? Is Sinopoly still producing, or are both Sinopoly nd Winston now failed..... leaving CALB at the high end of prismatics, and HiPower and others at the lower performance/quality end ?


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## Siwastaja (Aug 1, 2012)

dtbaker said:


> or, are these maybe a pile of odds and ends from open crates they are liquidating since they apparently aren't going to get any more with the demise of Winston?


What demise? Source please?


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## dtbaker (Jan 5, 2008)

Siwastaja said:


> What demise? Source please?


reply #136 in this thread indicated that Winston has failed as a company. I know there was trouble when they split thundersky into Winston/Sinopoly, but have not verified that one or both has failed or ceased production.


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## Siwastaja (Aug 1, 2012)

So, exactly as I guessed -- the same rumor that has been going on since the split. I have been able to find one original source for the rumor, and it is, surprisingly, Sinopoly, and given without any proof.

At the same time, there are numerous reports of people successfully buying these products that "do not exist".

For a product that has never existed (or existed only for a short time), it's quite a lot of "odds and ends" they have been selling for about two years.

I think you should edit your post to remove the false claims. It is false until you can provide any kind of reputable source. (Another forum member stating the same is not a source nor a proof.)

I'm reporting the case to the forum administrators and hope they check if they can find the source, or edit the posts if they find that it's only a malicious rumor.

I have been asking the source for this claim every time I see this shit going on, and never got it. Once I was offered the explanation that the member had some kind of inside info and cannot talk about his source. I hope the administrator can be trusted more if this is the case again. Sadly, I don't memorize names very well so I'm not sure which member offered me that explanation.


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## dtbaker (Jan 5, 2008)

Siwastaja said:


> So, exactly as I guessed -- the same rumor that has been going on since the split. I have been able to find one original source for the rumor, and it is, surprisingly, Sinopoly, and given without any proof.


huh, and what's YOUR source that the Sinopoly started any rumours?

I wasn't making claim, I was asking a question..... Is Balqon a viable source for Winston, and are they still in production? The recent posts were indicating people were having delays, and nothing was listed as in-stock. Hence my question.

I *just looked*, and the Balqon store looks to be selling still, but most sizes show 6 week lead time, which means its on a boat, not in their warehouse. Hence my question to the group of recent actual purchasers..... is Balqon still a reliable distributor? 

I'm not making any claims, just looking for feedback on suppliers prior to my next purchase.


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## Siwastaja (Aug 1, 2012)

dtbaker said:


> huh, and what's YOUR source that the Sinopoly started any rumours?


Hi,

I don't have proper bookkeeping of my forum activities, but I tried to find the correspondence by searching my old posts. I could only find this:
http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showthread.php?p=343072#post343072

I was also able to find this: http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showthread.php/winston-stop-trading-77414.html

It appears that "skooler" may have some kind of inside connections. I'd hope he would come out with his sources. It appears Sinopoly is one of his sources.

I do remember a discussion where a Sinopoly email was quoted as a source for Winston claims, but unfortunately cannot find it.



> I wasn't making claim, I was asking a question...


There clearly wasn't any question in this part: "with the demise of Winston".

If you wrote about my company like that, I would not be very happy. This is why I'm sympathizing with Winston. I have no connections to them, and frankly, I believe it _is_ possible they have problems. This is why I want to see the sources for such claims. To date, we only seem to have "skooler"'s claims with no evidence shown. I hope he would show us what information he really has, instead of giving mystical "status updates" of Winston stopping trading or Winston cells being bad quality, both of which have been disputed by real user experience, people being able to buy these cells and using them just as any similarly priced brand.


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## dtbaker (Jan 5, 2008)

Siwastaja said:


> Hi,
> 
> I don't have proper bookkeeping of my forum activities, but I tried to find the correspondence by searching my old posts. I could only find this:



hmmm, so be careful then before you call the pot black...



I don't really care between Sinopoly/Winston, I care only whether there is a reliable Distributor of (either) with cells in stock in the US for $1.10/ah or less. Otherwise the alternative is CALBs at $1.28 last I looked from CalibPower.com with the advantage of higher C ratings and an excellent record of having cells in stock in the US.

Now, I don't even see an active website for calibpower.com , and am wondering who the 'best' distributor is in the US with stock on hand at reasonable prices?!!

So, long-term I care whether Winston is still producing/distributing if there is no stock in the US in the sizes I would most likely want.... because there might not ever be any. I got burned badly once by a failed distributor, and am not wanting to put in a order for something that is 6 weeks offshore with no way to collect. Begs the question what Balqon is planning since battery sales are only a small part of their intended business.

If anybody has any ACTUAL information on this, let's hear it. With sources of course. sheesh.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Here is the contact info for Keegan at Calib if you want to try and see what they have:

*Keegan Han*
*Sales Manager*
*[email protected]*
_*Tel: 909-865-8809
Cell: 626-383-2957*_

Of course you can always buy from Jack Rickard if you want the braided straps and Nordlock washers included:
http://store.evtv.me/products.php?cat=10


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## njloof (Nov 21, 2011)

I had a really good experience buying from Keegan. He even let me pick them up to save on shipping. The website being down is annoying but I'd get in touch with him directly.


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## dtbaker (Jan 5, 2008)

njloof said:


> I had a really good experience buying from Keegan. He even let me pick them up to save on shipping. The website being down is annoying but I'd get in touch with him directly.



I had very good experience w Keegan last time I bought. Just a little freaked the website is down....


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## jehu (Oct 28, 2012)

Alright, picked up my batteries












Here is what I learned today, balqon is owned by the same dude that owns Winston, they convert big semi trucks to electric, they assemble their inverte/controllers in house, they use Baldor AC motors on the trucks. 
The trucks all use 700Ah cells, all smaller sizes are not used on their conversions so they import them only when someone orders them thus why the 6 week lead time. 
7 weeks ago I ordered 4 90Ah cells to complete my pack, they were not in stock so my guess is they ordered 200 cells from china factory but they don't really want to keep them in stock so they put them on clearance discount to sell them quickly. 
I pretty much scored a killer deal, I asked if I ordered another 38 cells if I could have all 42 cells at the $80 price, they agreed so I scored!!

*Update:*
On closer inspection the batteries have been out of the crate, they are bound by the aluminum straps and they have scratches and dirt on the bottom


























Other than that they look pretty new, I wont know how much capacity until I bottom balance them and run them thru a full charge cycle.


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## EVfun (Mar 14, 2010)

I notice they lack a logo over the center cap. 

The plates and straps can be useful. I took all of mine off and added tapped holes in the middle. Then I used some banding (0.5 inch by 0.020 inch thick stainless steel) to make new bands to the cell lengths I wanted. I used rows of 8 in the Datsun and rows of 13 in the Beach Buggy. You can pick up and carry the rows of cells by the end plates. The added tapped holes make the job of creating pack hold downs easy with no metal (that usually ends up grounded to the frame) on top of the cells.


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## GizmoEV (Nov 28, 2009)

I can't quite make out the date code on them. On my 100Ah cells the code is TS-LFP100AHA 091102-F07115 where the 091102 is the date code for 2009 November 2. What is on the cells you just picked up?


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## dtbaker (Jan 5, 2008)

dtbaker said:


> I had very good experience w Keegan last time I bought. Just a little freaked the website is down....



just got a reply from CALB canada.... they are still very much in business, just having trouble with website. Keegan is still the US sales rep to contact.


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## jehu (Oct 28, 2012)

GizmoEV said:


> I can't quite make out the date code on them. On my 100Ah cells the code is TS-LFP100AHA 091102-F07115 where the 091102 is the date code for 2009 November 2. What is on the cells you just picked up?




Uploaded with ImageShack.us


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## TexasCotton (Sep 18, 2008)

ndplume said:


> The ones he is talking about are in the clearance section. Try this link
> http://www.balqon.com/store.php#!/~/product/category=4218089&id=24958960


 Okay I need terminal straps now...............Where do you get them for these cells


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## Malevolence (Jun 5, 2013)

TexasCotton,

I got some CALB bus bars from EVolve a few weeks ago and they fit my older TS 90's perfectly without bending. I replaced an older TS 90 pack with Sinopoly 100's and reused the old bus bars by bending them shorter, but kept the still-OK cells from the old pack for another project. As a result, I wanted bus bars to use on the old TS 90 batteries, but EVolve only had ones for CALB batteries in stock - which was a blessing in disguise since they fit the older TS 90s better than the Sinopoly 100 bars would have. 

You may have to call, since I don't think they sell them on the website separate from the batteries. They're a little long for the newer TS 90/100's and the Sinopoly 100's that replaced them which are both slightly narrower batteries. It's hard to tell from the pictures if the batteries you have are narrower or not, but they probably are. Worst case, you can bend the bars shorter - it's much harder to make them longer.  

-Brendan


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## GizmoEV (Nov 28, 2009)

jehu said:


> Uploaded with ImageShack.us


So those cells are over 7 months old which is why they want to move them. That is not all bad. My cells are still performing just fine after over 3.5 years and your cells should be better since they are LYP cells.


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## alvin (Jul 26, 2008)

TexasCotton said:


> Okay I need terminal straps now...............Where do you get them for these cells


 
Mine came from Balqon with the cells.


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## GizmoEV (Nov 28, 2009)

If you want some high quality ones try here: http://store.evtv.me/products.php?cat=7


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## TexasCotton (Sep 18, 2008)

alvin said:


> Mine came from Balqon with the cells.


IDK
Yea got mine too day and came with bolt/washers and no straps. So I still gotta get terminal connectors/straps. Really, really want to avoid DIY project on straps......................Anyone looking to unload some battery terminal/connector/straps let me know


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## Ampster (Oct 6, 2012)

How many and for what size battery?


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## dtbaker (Jan 5, 2008)

GizmoEV said:


> If you want some high quality ones try here: http://store.evtv.me/products.php?cat=7


these braided straps are very nice, but also way more expensive than flat straps. Straps USED to be 'included' with cell purchase, sized for the typical short side series connections. I'm surprised Balqon doesn't offer straps w/ sales of cells?!

Last time I ordered cells from CalibPower I got straps with, but only in one size, and they did not stock straps separately, so I had to order a handful of longer ones from evtv for my cross-row connections.... sigh.

perhaps if enough of us request straps, they will stock some in different sizes.....


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## Ziggythewiz (May 16, 2010)

I ordered straps alone once from Keegan, of varying sizes, and multiple sizes when ordering cells...just depends what they have in stock, YMMV, etc.


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## alvin (Jul 26, 2008)

TexasCotton said:


> IDK
> Yea got mine too day and came with bolt/washers and no straps. So I still gotta get terminal connectors/straps. Really, really want to avoid DIY project on straps......................Anyone looking to unload some battery terminal/connector/straps let me know


You might call them back and order the straps. When I ordered my cells they were not listed on the web page but they had them listed on the quote they sent to me.


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## gayamrahul (Mar 4, 2013)

Hi all, I know this is no consumer grievance forum but Balqon corp is not responding to our mails or calls, I am from Rahul Coach Builders Pvt Ltd India, www.rahulcoach.com, we are manufacturers of CNG/gasoline threewheelers(tuk-tuk) and are developing an electric version of the same and have paid an advance of 2700$(50% advance towards an order of 24 100A-hr batteries and associated BMS) more than two months ago to balqon, this is our last correspondence with them.

From: "Steven Perez" <[email protected]>
Date: 21 Jun 2013 09:52
Subject: RE: Your quotation 130327001 dated 27-Mar-13
To: "Krishna Rao" <[email protected]>
Cc: 

Greetings,

We are having trouble trouble getting the new BMS board you ordered functioning properly. Our engineers are working on resolving this problem, but they need more time.

However, we have your batteries, and we plan to ship them by sea and you should be receiving them in the next 45 days. This will allow us time to the new BMS functioning properly and we will ship that to you via air since it is a light component. This way you will receive your entire system at the same time.

I apologize for any inconvenience this may have caused you.

Thank you,
Steven Perez

We have still not received the batteries,they will not tell us when to pay the remaining amount(frankly with such a huge delay I dont know if should pay them the full amount upfront, Id rather do it against delivery from the shipper) This is the first time we are dealing with Balqon, we have approached law firms based in US but that option is too expensive for a small business like ours(we might as well invest that money for another set of batteries). 

I would be grateful to anyone who is dealing with Balqon if they can put in a word with the management there about our order.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Have you tried cancelling the order and getting your money back? Or telling them to just send the batteries and that you don't need the BMS. Then you can get one from someone else, or just go without it.


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## alvin (Jul 26, 2008)

You might call them.

310-326-3055 

Or e-mail to [email protected]

[email protected]


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## gayamrahul (Mar 4, 2013)

I have tried calling them a lot of times, I have mailed directly to Mr Samra too 
nothing seems to work, the last reply we got was when we asked them to return the money back, we haven't heard from them since then.


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## TexasCotton (Sep 18, 2008)

alvin said:


> You might call them.
> 
> 310-326-3055
> 
> ...


They do not answer or return phone calls. 
Steve Perez replies by email and not within a 3 to 4 hour west coast time window. 

Although easy to place order online. Balqon kinda obtuse about ship cost and order completion , process, and actually getting product.
The website may take some form payment this does reflect the true overall order cost.


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## TexasCotton (Sep 18, 2008)

alvin said:


> Mine came from Balqon with the cells.


 I am still looking for straps. If you pm me I am looking for the cheapest ones. Otherwise will DIY my own.............. ebay has lots of braided grounding cable.


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## TexasCotton (Sep 18, 2008)

I am still looking for 90ah battery strap,buckles, and or connects.


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## alvin (Jul 26, 2008)

TexasCotton said:


> I am still looking for 90ah battery strap,buckles, and or connects.


 

This was found on google I don't know the company.



http://www.electriccarpartscompany....-Busbars-br-with-Bolts-and-Washers_p_312.html


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## bwjunkie (Jul 31, 2013)

Wow, long and very important thread for us DIY's getting started without established vendor's.
In response to: Balqon is "appointed exclusive distributor" (link below)

Some vendor's (namely the one I'm purchasing from) are somewhat non-transparent about their source which is most obviosly Winston (cutting and pasting from published Winston PDF's without citing the source). 

The question is:
Is it ethical/legal/whatever for anyone other than Balqon to be re-selling these yellow winston batteries as new with warranty? If so, do they need to state themselves as an authorized reseller? Or can they attempt to private label the batteries and is that reasonable?

link: http://www.lifepo4-info.com/balqon-...winston-battery-thundersky-lifepo4-batteries/


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## Ampster (Oct 6, 2012)

The press release was from January 2011 so many things could have changed since then. With what I have read about Winton Chung, change is inevitable.


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## bwjunkie (Jul 31, 2013)

update on Balqon:
I called them using the web site phone number, which ended up in accounting. Left a message, got a call back 2 days later. I asked about 60ah and 90ah and both were not in stock with 6-8 week lead time. They promptly emailed me a quote for 60 units of each. $66 / $99 respectively showing that half-payment was required up front. The person on the phone was the one that emailed me the quotes and also gave me another phone number for the sales personnel.

I did not ask about who can resell, etc. I did not order anything (yet).


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## Ampster (Oct 6, 2012)

I have 30 plus 90 Ahr Winstons that I purchased last year that I will be selling. I was originally going to buddy pair them with existing 90 Ahr batteries purchased three months earlier to get more range. My priorities changed and I am setting them up to test and will have a final count later in the week. I will probably be asking $60 per cell including straps. I will post a ad in classified by early next week.
EDIT, asking $65 per cell. Here is thread:
http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showthread.php?t=89053


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## eva-michael (Apr 13, 2010)

TexasCotton said:


> I am still looking for 90ah battery strap,buckles, and or connects.


We also provide strap, buckles and connectors. 
Connector is 2.9usd.
Jips and straps is about from 16-32usd/set. It will need to know which model and how many cells to hold.
90ah is about 24.5usd/set.


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## Ampster (Oct 6, 2012)

Sorry for starting a spam advertising trend.


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## gayamrahul (Mar 4, 2013)

After waiting a lot of months and very emotional mail to the Mr Samra, today I was finally refunded my full amount. I would still advice International buyers to be cautious when buying from them.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

I'd advise anyone to avoid them.


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## Ampster (Oct 6, 2012)

JRP3 said:


> I'd advise anyone to avoid them.


Anyone, except Jehu and I, who lived close enough to make it work. But I agree, for the rest of the population, their customer service is less than optimal. 

As a side note, I did get a call from them about six months after my purchase. It seems they had not charged me California sales tax. I paid it because I owed it, but I think it illustrates that they are not well organized for the DIY market.
I wish them well on their project at LA Harbor to convert yard mules (tractor trucks) to electric. There are lots of harbor mitigation funds to pay for projects like that and they seem to do well at that scale.


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## alvin (Jul 26, 2008)

I ordered mine on a Thursday and received them at my door on the following Tuesday. With all the bolts, washers, and interconnects.

I live 2000 miles from their store.

I had one cell that was slightly bloated when I finally got around to installing them. I called and they brought me another one and picked up the old one.

Since then I have just been using them. 

Alvin


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

How long ago was that? Things seem to have deteriorated.


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## alvin (Jul 26, 2008)

JRP3 said:


> How long ago was that? Things seem to have deteriorated.


 
I have had them a little over a year.


And I have not tried to contact them myself for a while. So I don't know if things have deteriorated or not.

Alvin


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## williamson3 (Oct 1, 2013)

I tried to buy 50 160 ah cells from Balqon. Great price. But they only quote by air, 3200 or $3500.00, shipping to zip 11777, Long Island NY. After 6 weeks on a boat, who needs air? Can anyone help me as to if air is the only choice, and are others paying this rate? Fed-ex wants about$800 for 800 # to a residence. Am I going crazy? Only yttrium batteries can be charged below freezing, so I think they are my only choice. Also, I wouldn't try regen under freezing without a charging spec under freezing.


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## Ampster (Oct 6, 2012)

I have defended them in the past based on my previous experience. I recently saw an EVTV segment that reported information from an SEC report. I have not read that report but would do so before I sent the company any funds in the future.


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## TexasCotton (Sep 18, 2008)

williamson3 said:


> I tried to buy 50 160 ah cells from Balqon. Great price. But they only quote by air, 3200 or $3500.00,


Several have bought from Balqon in past however there customer support, final cost, and etc Balqon is kinda obtuse and indifferent........to individual customers............


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

To put it simply they may be going bankrupt and they seem to ship older product when they ship anything. Personally I would not take a chance.


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## williamson3 (Oct 1, 2013)

The shipping price I posted was correct, but may not be for air. Sorry. What's the difference between a yellow case and a black, IF both say "YLP"? How do I find this SEC report? I got a phone-call from Balqon sales within hours of my posting! They ARE responsive! I wasn't home. They will send a quote. Thank you, everyone.


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## williamson3 (Oct 1, 2013)

Winters here are below freezing. They are the only source I know of, for yttrium-doped batteries. What's old about a cell if it IS yttrium? These cells age better than fine wine! I intend to pay by MasterCard. Forum members are right about the risk, but have you read about the losses of a competitor?


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

williamson3 said:


> What's old about a cell if it IS yttrium? These cells age better than fine wine!


That's total nonsense, lest anyone think otherwise. Wine gets better with age, cells, of any sort, do not.


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## williamson3 (Oct 1, 2013)

Yes, the part of my post about wine was nonsense. I was making a point using hyperbole.


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## williamson3 (Oct 1, 2013)

Ampster recently posted that there was an SEC report that was mentioned on Mr. Jack Rickards tv show. A report is not an action. Unless someone can point to something hard, I wouldn't worry about a report. I went to the SEC site and searched for Balqon. I only found past filings by Balqon such an 8-k report which reports financial info to the SEC, REQUIRED. Then disclosure of stock transactions. Normal. Then, and lastly, the report of private placement of stock. I found only Balqon filings. To search: SEC.gov. Kindest regards to all.


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## williamson3 (Oct 1, 2013)

Balqon accepts M\C which provides protection against fraud. I called M\C and they said they have had no reported problems with Balqon. They also checked the BB and found no problems. I really wanted them to get a D&B report, but she wouldn't.


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## williamson3 (Oct 1, 2013)

I got a quote today from Balqon:50 160 ah cells, YLFP, price as on their store, $458 shipping to NY, residential delivery. $2/strap, choice of cell to cell, or row to row. They call them "horizontal and vertical"straps. Apparently to do business with them, you have to be patient. As you know, people making their own electric car is a MUCH smaller market than predicted. Infitesimal. I'm as happy as a pig in mud.


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## williamson3 (Oct 1, 2013)

BTW: vertical straps for them is cell-to-cell.


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## Ampster (Oct 6, 2012)

FYI, for 90 Ahr cells the straps work both ways. Only one type of strap needed.


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## williamson3 (Oct 1, 2013)

Too bad Winston didn't do that for all his cells. Hint-Hint.


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## TexasCotton (Sep 18, 2008)

alvin said:


> This was found on google I don't know the company.
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.electriccarpartscompany....-Busbars-br-with-Bolts-and-Washers_p_312.html


 
FYI
Here is the my issue ...............I never found anyone selling the correct pre machine /fabricated strap for the cells I got from Balqon .........I just made my own because the straps purchased did not work and created a gap............


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## alvin (Jul 26, 2008)

TexasCotton said:


> FYI
> Here is the my issue ...............I never found anyone selling the correct pre machine /fabricated strap for the cells I got from Balqon .........I just made my own because the straps purchased did not work and created a gap............


 
I am glad you got some straps to work. Is your EV going now.

Alvin


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## bwjunkie (Jul 31, 2013)

Sorry for the double post, this is the correct thread:

From Balqon, I received 50x 60ah Winston lifeypo4 batteries today for exactly $3300 (free shipping and free residential lift gate service)

The total time was 5 months from order date to arrival.

-josh


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Wow, 5 months. Are these new cells? Are you going to test them for capacity?


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## bwjunkie (Jul 31, 2013)

JRP3 said:


> Wow, 5 months. Are these new cells? Are you going to test them for capacity?


They are advertised as new just like any vendor. I have no reason to think they are used, and I don't see how 5 months could imply "used". I do wonder if the Owner's of Winston puts their cousin company (Balqon) at the bottom of the list. Still that kind of conjecture is probably harmful to the value of this thread. We need facts!

They just arrived from China to LA according to BOL and they have a much newer serial number than my 1 year old batteries from Voltronix.

When I balance them with my other (apparently identical) batteries, and drive them down to 20%, my BMS will show which batteries drop below 3.0v first. That will have to be my testing system since I don't have a manual cycle system (yet!).

josh


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## martinwinlow (Sep 22, 2009)

5 MONTHS!!! That is not any sort of business model I would want to deal with. Thanks for the heads up! LEAF cells for me from now on, thanks very much! MW


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## bwjunkie (Jul 31, 2013)

Also shipped were 50 copper connectors (~$150 value) with screws (the 3 leaf 20 mill type) which I did not know was included at no charge. I was pleasantly surprised since my previous vendor did not include this.
-josh


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## www.3xE.pl (Nov 22, 2008)

Screws are free for all Winston batteries.
Connectors also could be when sales guy likes you


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