# Warp 11" Motor Torque



## Jordysport (Mar 22, 2009)

GeoMetric said:


> Netgain published data:
> 
> 135 ft Lbs of torque @ 452.8 amps.
> 
> ...


In theory yes, but the Netgain motor graph extrapolated is a better estimation, as its not linear. especially at 2000+Amps it won't be 675ft lbs and thats peak so have to consider whether you can sustain 2262 motor amps without substantial sag, so the sag puts all those figures out of the window. I'd consider working with figures 10% less than the extrapolated motor graph.


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## GeoMetric (Aug 13, 2010)

Jordysport said:


> In theory yes, but the Netgain motor graph extrapolated is a better estimation, as its not linear. especially at 2000+Amps it won't be 675ft lbs and thats peak so have to consider whether you can sustain 2262 motor amps without substantial sag, so the sag puts all those figures out of the window. I'd consider working with figures 10% less than the extrapolated motor graph.


I agree. The numbers @ 2000A might be lower than 675ft lbs. I need this number because I am considering racing with one 11" Warp motor. Sag is not an issue because my new modules can produce 4200A for a few seconds and 3000A for over 10 seconds, I want to reduce battery voltage sag so I pick 2500A as my racing number. 

Most drag cars running 1200HP motors (ICE) only deliver about 700ft lbs of torque, so if I can get one Warp 11" to deliver anywhere near 700ft lbs and maintain 200V for 9 seconds I think one motor and one Shiva will work. I really don't need the torque of two 11" motors in my opinion, but the HP is now another issue.


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## Jordysport (Mar 22, 2009)

GeoMetric said:


> I agree. The numbers @ 2000A might be lower than 675ft lbs. I need this number because I am considering racing with one 11" Warp motor. Sag is not an issue because my new modules can produce 4200A for a few seconds and 3000A for over 10 seconds, I want to reduce battery voltage sag so I pick 2500A as my racing number.
> 
> Most drag cars running 1200HP motors (ICE) only deliver about 700ft lbs of torque, so if I can get one Warp 11" to deliver anywhere near 700ft lbs and maintain 200V for 9 seconds I think one motor and one Shiva will work. One really don't need the torque of two 11" motors in my opinion.


yes imo "kiss" the simpler it is the less it will go wrong and critically the lighter it will be. 

700 ft lbs is a lot for a standard W11 i assume it won't be standard? but the max power you will be running will be no more than 670bhp.


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## GeoMetric (Aug 13, 2010)

Jordysport said:


> yes imo "kiss" the simpler it is the less it will go wrong and critically the lighter it will be.
> 
> 700 ft lbs is a lot for a standard W11 i assume it won't be standard? but the max power you will be running will be no more than 670bhp.


My Warp 11" motors have been rebuilt with new heavy duty brush holders and split brushes from Helwig Carbon, they can survive 2500A to 3000A. The question is what is the torque one 11" Warp motor can produce if delivered high amounts of amps?

I have already pushed 2300A through each of my Warp 11" motors, the voltage was very low 118V, so the results was only 10.4 ET. The car weighed almost 2800lbs when this was done.

So, lowering the cars weight to 2300lbs and racing with one 11" Warp motor using the Shiva's full power might be a better option?


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## GeoMetric (Aug 13, 2010)

Just received reliable info from the man himself! 

__________________________________________

Re: WarP 11 - actual test data at 72 volts: (doubling voltage will double the RPMs at which the torque is produced)

Amps ----Torque (ft lbs)----- RPMs
1082 ------399----------------- 952
1320 ------503----------------- 847
1610 ------635----------------- 729
1963 ------805----------------- 595

Michael Bream tested his dual 11's with a single Shiva: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EiQN7T1EpRQ ( 831 ft lbs at 2,000 Amps (1,000 each motor))

Stall on the motors is 3926 Amps @ 1959 ft lbs (0 RPMS) - DESTRUCTIVE test!

So, a single motor at 2,000 Amps is roughly 800 ft lbs, probably close to 1,000 ft lbs at 2,500 Amps... (this is also near the shear strength of the 1.375" shafts!)


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## Jordysport (Mar 22, 2009)

GeoMetric said:


> Just received reliable info from the man himself!
> 
> __________________________________________
> 
> ...


if i'm not mistaken thats a Warp 11 HV not a Warp 11.


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## GeoMetric (Aug 13, 2010)

Jordysport said:


> if i'm not mistaken thats a Warp 11 HV not a Warp 11.


No that si a Warp 11" motor, a Warp 11'' HV motor deliver less torque.


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## Jordysport (Mar 22, 2009)

GeoMetric said:


> No that si a Warp 11" motor, a Warp 11'' HV motor deliver less torque.


I'm pretty sure the EV West Pikes Peak car (shown in that video) uses Two Warp 11 HV Motors

http://www.fluxauto.com/?p=2296


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## GeoMetric (Aug 13, 2010)

Jordysport said:


> I'm pretty sure the EV West Pikes Peak car (shown in that video) uses Two Warp 11 HV Motors
> 
> http://www.fluxauto.com/?p=2296


I know Michael removed his HV motors for regular Warp 11'' motors. Not sure what was in the car during the video, but the data I was provided comes from a solid source.


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## GeoMetric (Aug 13, 2010)

Jordysport said:


> I'm pretty sure the EV West Pikes Peak car (shown in that video) uses Two Warp 11 HV Motors
> 
> http://www.fluxauto.com/?p=2296


He used regular Warp 11" motors during the Pikes Peak race, that I know for sure. So, in the video he was using non HV motors.

The Warp 11'' HV motor uses a 9" motor armature which reduces the torque.


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## Jordysport (Mar 22, 2009)

GeoMetric said:


> He used regular Warp 11" motors during the Pikes Peak race, that I know for sure. So, in the video he was using non HV motors.
> 
> *The Warp 11'' HV motor uses a 9" motor armature which reduces the torque.*


But not the full story......so many other benefits to the HV, peak torque can be from 0RPM-4000RPM!!(think that was 1000A limit) with 280V and can go up to 8000rpm!! and produces the same torque/amp as the Warp 11


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## Yabert (Feb 7, 2010)

GeoMetric said:


> I think one motor and one Shiva will work. I really don't need the torque of two 11" motors in my opinion.


Isn't your about your opinion, it's about physic laws! 1000 lbs-ft at shaft isn't enough for direct drive with limited RPM.



GeoMetric said:


> Just received reliable info from the man himself!
> 
> __________________________________________
> 
> ...


From George (Netgain)? Thanks to share. There are really interesting.
But they show a motor efficiency of 50% at 1963A and 72v!! 141 Kw in, 68 Kw out!
Reliable source?


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## GeoMetric (Aug 13, 2010)

Yabert said:


> Isn't your about your opinion, it's about physic laws! 1000 lbs-ft at shaft isn't enough for direct drive with limit


You obvisouly have no drag racing experience, so take a hike. 1000ft lbs will get a 2300lb drag car a 1.2 60' time! And do not insult my friends.


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## McRat (Jul 10, 2012)

Jordysport said:


> But not the full story......so many other benefits to the HV, peak torque can be from 0RPM-4000RPM!!(think that was 1000A limit) with 280V and can go up to 8000rpm!! and produces the same torque/amp as the Warp 11


Not electric, but just trivia.

With 1600ftlb of torque at the crank, and factory gears, I go 11.77 ET.
With 1300ftlb of torque at the crank, and factory gears, I go 10.59 ET.

What is the difference? The 1600ftlb was at 2000rpm.
The 1300ftlb was at 3800rpm.

Torque in a vacuum is nothing. No matter what anyone thinks about torque, it's horsepower that accelerates.

If it's a choice between 1000ftlb at 2000rpm or 500ftlb at 5000rpm, I'll take the RPM.


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## GeoMetric (Aug 13, 2010)

I have not made any decisions yet, still running numbers. Might stick with one Shiva and use two motors, might even just stick with everything and add the dual packs for each Shiva.


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## Joey (Oct 12, 2007)

If you run a single motor/controller, it might be a step back in the short run, but once you figure out an optimal configuration, you would have a pretty clear path to doubling your output. Seems like batteries are the bottle neck and finding a good combo on a single controller/motor would free up your budget to try more setups.


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## Karter2 (Nov 17, 2011)

> ...Most drag cars running 1200HP motors (ICE) only deliver about 700ft lbs of torque, so if I can get one Warp 11" to deliver anywhere near 700ft lbs and maintain 200V for 9 seconds I think one motor and one Shiva will work. I really don't need the torque of two 11" motors in my opinion, but the HP is now another issue.


 But as Jabert and McRat have explained the ICE's are able to multiply that torque in the transmission, due to their higher motor rpm's .


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## Batterypoweredtoad (Feb 5, 2008)

Ron-do you have any RPM data to go with your Shiva logs? I don't remember it being on the graphs. Do you have any way you could calculate it using a combination of the time on the log and your timeslips (60ft, 330ft, 1000ft times, etc...)? The reason I ask is that I think you have the highest recorded amps per Warp11 our there. Being able to accurately see what volts got you what amps at what rpm would help answer most of these questions.

Are you thinking of not using the gear vendors transmission?


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## Yabert (Feb 7, 2010)

GeoMetric said:


> You obvisouly have no drag racing experience, so take a hike. 1000ft lbs will get a 2300lb drag car a 1.2 60' time! And do not insult my friends.


On your side, you miss some physic and electrical laws.
I mean 1000 lbs-ft with proper gear ratio can accelerate anything quickly, but with a direct drive gear ratio to be able to hit 150 mph, it's another story.


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## GeoMetric (Aug 13, 2010)

Karter2 said:


> But as Jabert and McRat have explained the ICE's are able to multiply that torque in the transmission, due to their higher motor rpm's .


I agree, my head and calculations are still stuck in ICE racing. The reason 700ft lbs can give great launches is high gears and trans. I will stick with both motors.


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## GeoMetric (Aug 13, 2010)

Batterypoweredtoad said:


> Ron-do you have any RPM data to go with your Shiva logs? I don't remember it being on the graphs. Do you have any way you could calculate it using a combination of the time on the log and your timeslips (60ft, 330ft, 1000ft times, etc...)? The reason I ask is that I think you have the highest recorded amps per Warp11 our there. Being able to accurately see what volts got you what amps at what rpm would help answer most of these questions.
> 
> Are you thinking of not using the gear vendors transmission?


Yes, the data charts are on my Warp Factor III performance thread. I ran both Shiva's at 2300MA to my Warp Motors with no problems, but the voltage sag was very bad, down to 118V. The GearVendors is a must with low RPM motors.


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## Jordysport (Mar 22, 2009)

GeoMetric said:


> Yes, the data charts are on my Warp Factor III performance thread. I ran both Shiva's at 2300MA to my Warp Motors with no problems, but the voltage sag was very bad, down to 118V. The GearVendors is a must with low RPM motors.


I think you should keep the hardware setup atm, but focus on reducing the Voltage sag as no matter what you do with your motor/controller setup that's going to be the biggest performance decider. 

Your going with new cells i know but, still there is going to be considerable sag, whats good about the evnetics controllers, is you can set motor voltage, so can have pack voltage of 300 odd V and keep it pumping 200 V out even under load.


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## Bowser330 (Jun 15, 2008)

What about looking into smaller higher RPM motors...

1 Shiva
4 Impulse9 motors (133lbs each = 532lbs total) (Warp11= 233lbs each)

Set them up, 2 in parallel 2 in series

150V & 1500A* @ 4000rpm*
So each motor gets ~150V(w/sag) & 1500A each = 225kw * 4 = 900kw (900hp w/losses) 1500A = ~300ftlbs * 4 = 1200ftlbs

With 165V & 1000A *@ 5500rpm*
165kw * 4 = 660kw (660hp w/losses)
1000A = 200ftlbs * 4 = 800ftlbs


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## DIYguy (Sep 18, 2008)

Quote below from Shawn Lawless, who has done all combinations discussed..... 

"So pick your poison. A single 13" GE, Dual 11" GE's, or four 7.5" GE's. They are all very different and all about equal."

There have been several quoted from other racers regarding 2 - 9" motors performing similarly as one 11".

So, if you can keep the smaller ones from melting, and get the ratio's right to take advantage of rpm vs torque curves for the appropriate motor. . . . . they are all effective "transmissions" for your battery HP. 

It's mostly in the battery. . . as mentioned.


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## GeoMetric (Aug 13, 2010)

I will be running both 11" Warp motors with one Shiva with a kick azz pack!


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## Bowser330 (Jun 15, 2008)

DIYguy said:


> Quote below from Shawn Lawless, who has done all combinations discussed.....
> 
> "So pick your poison. A single 13" GE, Dual 11" GE's, or four 7.5" GE's. They are all very different and all about equal."
> 
> ...


Really? A single 11" performing similarly to two 9" motors? That would be great, can you share with me which racers you are quoting??

I ask because I have not seen that as true, I've seen that dual9's are an upgrade from a single 11"....White Zombie is a perfect example of 11" vs dual 8", dual 8" performing better than 11", and then upgrading to dual 9" and performing even better than dual 8"...

Additionally Jack R.'s dyno showed ~275ftlbs from 1000A in a Warp9 motor, so ~550ftlbs for dual 9's. Does 1000A in a Warp11 produce 550ftlbs? the 9" motors also have the rpm advantage over the single 11" motor however that could be partially mitigated by the ratios and other setup options you mentioned.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Bowser330 said:


> Really? A single 11" performing similarly to two 9" motors? That would be great, can you share with me which racers you are quoting??
> 
> I ask because I have not seen that as true, I've seen that dual9's are an upgrade from a single 11"....White Zombie is a perfect example of 11" vs dual 8", dual 8" performing better than 11", and then upgrading to dual 9" and performing even better than dual 8"...
> 
> Additionally Jack R.'s dyno showed ~275ftlbs from 1000A in a Warp9 motor, so ~550ftlbs for dual 9's. Does 1000A in a Warp11 produce 550ftlbs? the 9" motors also have the rpm advantage over the single 11" motor however that could be partially mitigated by the ratios and other setup options you mentioned.


In his blog Wayland basically said there could be more potential in the single 11". IIRC, the problem wasn't the limitations of the motor itself, some other issue caused the meltdown - can't remember exactly what right now, and I have trouble finding what I'm looking for in his blog, for some reason. IIRC, again, he switched because Jim Husted had this new trick motor combination they wanted to try.

As for a single 11" running comparable times/having similar performance - Current Eliminator (Berube's dragster) ran in the 7's with a single 11" - years ago.


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## Batterypoweredtoad (Feb 5, 2008)

Bowser330 said:


> Additionally Jack R.'s dyno showed ~275ftlbs from 1000A in a Warp9 motor, so ~550ftlbs for dual 9's. Does 1000A in a Warp11 produce 550ftlbs? the 9" motors also have the rpm advantage over the single 11" motor however that could be partially mitigated by the ratios and other setup options you mentioned.


If you are putting the same amount of power into the motors you are going to get similar power out. Your math for two Warp9's includes 2000 amps total for your 550ft/lbs not 1000. So yes, a Warp11 would produce more than 550 ft/lbs of torque at the same (2000) amps. More torque and slightly fewer rpm to get almost exactly the same amount of power. Very similar power with the only differences due to differences in efficiency of the motor at that load.


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## DIYguy (Sep 18, 2008)

Batterypoweredtoad said:


> If you are putting the same amount of power into the motors you are going to get similar power out. Your math for two Warp9's includes 2000 amps total for your 550ft/lbs not 1000. So yes, a Warp11 would produce more than 550 ft/lbs of torque at the same (2000) amps. More torque and slightly fewer rpm to get almost exactly the same amount of power. Very similar power with the only differences due to differences in efficiency of the motor at that load.


yep, agreed. That's why I referenced them as "transmissions" for your battery HP. 

If you spend some time searching the NEDRA yahoo forum, you will find some references to this quote a few times. I've been a reader/member for several years now and have seen it come up a few times.


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## Bowser330 (Jun 15, 2008)

Batterypoweredtoad said:


> If you are putting the same amount of power into the motors you are going to get similar power out. Your math for two Warp9's includes 2000 amps total for your 550ft/lbs not 1000. So yes, a Warp11 would produce more than 550 ft/lbs of torque at the same (2000) amps. More torque and slightly fewer rpm to get almost exactly the same amount of power. Very similar power with the only differences due to differences in efficiency of the motor at that load.


Ahhh that's where I messed up. 1000a vs 2000a...and yes the efficiencies will be different between the two as will the rpm if you are using a standard warp11 due to the limiting motor voltage, however to be fair I should compare the dual 9's to a warp11hv which then would have similar rpm as the 9" motors


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