# hybrid vehicle



## anand.ssukhi (Jul 23, 2009)

please guys i need some urgent help.


----------



## 80N541 (Jan 11, 2009)

if you want regen, you'll need an ac motor or sepex motor 
may someone correct me if i'm wrong.

ac option will be more expensive, but you'll get better efficiency with it. tha hpgc ac 12 may do the job

in sepex, you've got the D&D ES-10E-33.


----------



## IamIan (Mar 29, 2009)

anand.ssukhi said:


> please guys i need some urgent help.


urgent???

You just started the thread yesterday... a Saturday 3 weeks before x-mas.

Slow down... take your time... a project like this ... if it is worth doing it is worth doing right... it takes as long as it takes... if you rush you will only makes more problems for yourself.

As for AC or DC ... there are many many topics about this all over the forum... in short it depends... on application specifics , budget , personal preference , etc...etc...

My personal 2 bits...

Go through the steps to figure out exactly what you need the motor to do... there is a difference between would like it to do and need it to do.

The NuWiki at the top of the page is a good place to start to get your feet wet on understanding things... there are also a few basic concept books out there you can buy to read.

Once you know what you need from the motor ... My suggestion is to figure out what you need from the batteries ... than it becomes a research project finding components that work together to do what you want to accomplish.

Sometimes people don't find what they want ... so they build the components themselves ... and on that there are several threads on this forum about each of the components.

--------------

That is about all I will offer about the general questions ... if you have specific questions please post them.


----------



## Voltswagen (Nov 13, 2008)

With 2 different propulsion systems and two seperate differentials and transmissions you are about to enter the "Headache Zone".

I applaud your bravery.

The gearing had better be a perfect match if you plan on running both systems at the same time. 

and if running the systems seperate, the idle system will drag on the propelled system reducing it's efficiency. But you already know all of this right?


----------



## Bowser330 (Jun 15, 2008)

anand.ssukhi said:


> We are starting on our project of making a hybrid car.
> It is consisting of electrical front wheel drive and ICE driven rear wheels.
> we have taken a small donor car (suzuki 800) and we'll be taking out the engine and attaching an motor directly to the gearbox and we are planning of attaching a small engine maybe from an motorcycle directly to the rear diffrential.
> we'll be having an automatic transmission for the ICE and the pre-exixsting manual one eith the electrical drive train.
> ...


I have wondered what a dual axle system would be like but you have to wonder why so many big car companies have not gone that route....

I dont mean to take your plans off track, but I had a different Idea for a hybrid, Why not do as the OEMs do and sandwich an E-motor between an ICE and the transmission...

you could use the AC-20 seen here:

http://www.electricmotorsport.com/store/ems_ev_parts_motors_ac-induction.php

48hp and 110ftlbs of torque.. the graph of the AC-50 is @ 96V is the most realistic curve, so 90 ftlbs of torque up till 3000rpm, and the AC-20 can spin up to 8000rpm.

If you sandwiched that between a small turbo ICE your turbo lag would be taken care of by the e-motor torque and when the turbo power kicks in your e-motor can just free spin and regen whenever idle or while decelerating. This could make the car not only faster but also essentially make the highway mpg your average mpg. 

Sorry to go off topic If you'd like to talk more just PM me...


----------



## roflwaffle (Sep 9, 2008)

I second sticking the motor between the engine and the trans if possible. Since there probably isn't a whole lot of room to put the motor physically inline, the easiest thing to do IMO would be to mod the bellhousing/input shaft of the trans to mate w/ the motor mounting somewhere parallel to the engine/trans via a belt drive (no oil needed unlike a chain drive).


----------



## anand.ssukhi (Jul 23, 2009)

yup there are two different gear box and two different differentials.
the donor car which we have taken had a gear box with inbuilt differential arangment for the front wheel drive so we'll be removing the engine and connecting the motor to the gear box directly.
so I need a motor with same torque as the engine i.e 75Nm.

and for the rear wheels we are connecting the shaft from the differential to the sprocket of the motorbike engine by directly welding.
also we are using a microcontroller based system in order to automate the transmission of the motorbike with variable speed as input.
so not much headache while driving


----------



## anand.ssukhi (Jul 23, 2009)

even I thought the same thing that why aren't big compnies thinking of it as of yet.
but a week ago i came to know that mercedes has been working on a similar prototype with only differences being 

it has a electrical rear wheel drive and ICE based front wheel.
it has ICE as main power source and electrical for assistance while i have electrical drive and ICE assist.
thus it has all the advantages of an EV and also range is not a problem(atleast theoritically)


----------



## anand.ssukhi (Jul 23, 2009)

we had a thought of squeezing the motor between the engine and gear box but the donor car which we have dosn't has that much space. 
and also we are going for an electrical only drive option rather we would be starting the vehicle on electric solely and then after swithing on the ICE when speed reaches 30 KM/Hr automatically that cant be done by squeezing the motor.


----------



## Bowser330 (Jun 15, 2008)

anand.ssukhi said:


> we had a thought of squeezing the motor between the engine and gear box but the donor car which we have dosn't has that much space.
> and also we are going for an electrical only drive option rather we would be starting the vehicle on electric solely and then after swithing on the ICE when speed reaches 30 KM/Hr automatically that cant be done by squeezing the motor.


I am pretty sure that can be done since thats what the prius does...its essentially acting like a starter motor in that case, right?

As far as mounting and overall car modification I think for FWD applications, roflwaffle you are spot on mate.

I was thinking of rear wheel drive which would mean the following major modifications:

(1) 2 adapter plates, engine to e-motor & e-motor to trans
(2) Modified sub-frame with new transmission mounts and e-motor mounts
(3) Shorter drive shaft, custom or sourced.
(4) controller software mated to the ICE ECU


----------



## Stunt Driver (May 14, 2009)

there is another brave guy with Fiero hybrid done just as you plan. The drawback that I saw - car is heavy, and doesn't get enough milege on battery. Perhaps with more expensive batts it would be better, but it ain't cheap. And if you want to sync ICE and EV parts, so you don't have to switch between drives manually as you go - it's another nightmare.
And that's when Prius would do MUCH-MUCH better with extra pack added.

I may be wrong, but people are after building EVs - because there are none available to buy (tesla is way off in price). And nicely built hybrids are available.

So, why hybrid? If hybrid - why parallel? You may be much better off with series hybrid - in other words EV with range extender.


----------



## Bowser330 (Jun 15, 2008)

Stunt Driver said:


> there is another brave guy with Fiero hybrid done just as you plan. The drawback that I saw - car is heavy, and doesn't get enough milege on battery. Perhaps with more expensive batts it would be better, but it ain't cheap. And if you want to sync ICE and EV parts, so you don't have to switch between drives manually as you go - it's another nightmare.
> And that's when Prius would do MUCH-MUCH better with extra pack added.
> 
> I may be wrong, but people are after building EVs - because there are none available to buy (tesla is way off in price). And nicely built hybrids are available.
> ...


Very valid points made...and you have sparked a thought in my mind to get a used prius drivetrain, update/refresh the battery pack with a larger lithium pack and transplant the entire drivetrain/system into the car of my choice..I am pretty sure the prius parts not used could be sold to recoup some of the expense.

....in regards to the Fiero chap you mention, the weight is probably due to his batteries as you elluded too...with lighter weight lithium cells it would be much better, also, was he using an AC motor or DC?, the AC would have regen and better efficiency as well...do you happen to have a link to his hybrid setup?


----------



## John (Sep 11, 2007)

The modern ICE has a peak efficiency of around 35% and yet in the car it might average closer to 20% efficiency. This is because it spends a lot of its time running at no where near its peak efficiency RPM and load. A hybrid has to be able to exploit this efficiency gap by forcing the ICE to spend more of its operating time at or near its peak efficiency. In a serial hybrid such as the Volt the size of the range extender is fairly irelevent to achieving this goal but it has the disadvanage of more energy conversions and their inefficiencies in its energy flow from ICE to propelling the vehicle. One of the reasons why cars with smaller motors are more efficient is because the motor is forced to spend more time higher up its power curve where it is closer to its peak efficiency.

With the automatic motorbike motor/transmision unit, would that have to idle while the vehicle was moving in EV mode to prevent damage to the transmision? Not having to do this would save a lot of gas.


----------



## Stunt Driver (May 14, 2009)

Fiero's page is here
http://grassrootsmotorsports.com/for...d/10519/page1/

he used prius's packs, which aren't worst weight. Just can't do better than engineers at toyota when combining ICE and Hybrid.

I think Prius technically can't do more than 30mph on batteries, and I wonder it drivetrain is not designed to? But with additional batteries you can certainly make it go further at least with the same speed.

What would be truly wonderfull - get microturbine generator installed on EV as range extender, just not sure where to get one..


----------



## anand.ssukhi (Jul 23, 2009)

Bowser330 said:


> I am pretty sure that can be done since thats what the prius does...its essentially acting like a starter motor in that case, right?
> 
> As far as mounting and overall car modification I think for FWD applications, roflwaffle you are spot on mate.
> 
> ...


yes the prius thing is right but what we are doing is an electric vehicle which gets more power and more mileage from the ICE and squeezing the motor is really a tuf task.


----------



## anand.ssukhi (Jul 23, 2009)

Stunt Driver said:


> there is another brave guy with Fiero hybrid done just as you plan. The drawback that I saw - car is heavy, and doesn't get enough milege on battery. Perhaps with more expensive batts it would be better, but it ain't cheap. And if you want to sync ICE and EV parts, so you don't have to switch between drives manually as you go - it's another nightmare.
> And that's when Prius would do MUCH-MUCH better with extra pack added.
> 
> I may be wrong, but people are after building EVs - because there are none available to buy (tesla is way off in price). And nicely built hybrids are available.
> ...


yes battery is a big problem in both ways weight or cost.
we will be switching on the ICE automatically controlled by the speed of the vehicle rather the complete ICE system will be automated. the gear, clutch, accelrator. yesterday itself we tested the microcontroller on a dummy. there will be an option of manual overide
the HEV's avilable are very costly, also they are not plug-in.
and yes series hybrid is also good and even we want to make a series hybrid if the space under hood allows


----------



## anand.ssukhi (Jul 23, 2009)

we are using sepex controller curtis 1244-5402.
please tell me what is the voltage it provides for the excitation winding.


----------



## Voltswagen (Nov 13, 2008)

anand.ssukhi said:


> yup there are two different gear box and two different differentials.
> the donor car which we have taken had a gear box with inbuilt differential arangment for the front wheel drive so we'll be removing the engine and connecting the motor to the gear box directly.
> so I need a motor with same torque as the engine i.e 75Nm.
> 
> ...


Anand
If you are planning on running both systems at the same time, the front wheels and rear wheels *must still* both rotate the *exact* same number of times.
I encountered this problem once myself when changing a blown front differential in a 1987 Blazer 4 wheel drive. The Salvage Yard mislabeled the replacement ratio. The gearing of the replacement front differential was slightly different than the existing rear differential. 
When placed in 4 wheel drive, the front and rear wheels were fighting each other as they each wanted to rotate a different number of times. This resulted in chirping of the tires and put tremendous stress on the drivetrain.
Your electric motor is using an automatic transmission. Is you motorcycle engine also using an automatic transmission? What motorcycle engine and trans are you using?
It doesn't matter *how* you transfer power to 2 seperate differentials..........the gearing and *tire size* must match *exactly. *Even if you could somehow try to regulate the engine speed of the motorcycle to compensate for a difference in ratios.......a motorcycle engine is what? Internal combustion? How then will you compensate for combustion lag under different acceleration speeds? How about the effect of differing ambient temperatures on the motorcycle engine?
Don't believe me?  Go ahead.............watch what happens.


----------



## anand.ssukhi (Jul 23, 2009)

yes u r right i faced the problem while designing so we changed the plan and now we are connecting the motor as usual to the gear box but now instead of rear wheels now we are connecting the motorcycle engine to the motor shaft by sprocket chain arrangment.

and please anyone tell me the feild winding voltage rating of curtis 1244 5402 sepex controller


----------



## Guest (Jan 27, 2010)

Just buy a good used Prius and make it a Plugin for those extended electric drive only days. Far less hassle and I'd almost bet far cheaper too and you'd have a very comfortable vehicle.


----------



## anand.ssukhi (Jul 23, 2009)

prius has very recently been launched in india so no chance of getting a old anything.
and my budget is 6000$


----------



## Guest (Jan 28, 2010)

Bummer, sorry to hear that. I happen to like the VW platform. Both the old air cooled and the newer front wheel drive water cooled vehicles for use as a conversion. Any thing like that? They are a popular vehicle to convert and bazillions were made and shipped around the world. Many are still not total rust buckets either. 

Just another thought from my corner of the world.


----------



## anand.ssukhi (Jul 23, 2009)

yes we have that but iam working on a maruti suzuki 800 
it is a small hatchback weighing abt 700 kg .
very soon i'll upload pics


----------



## anand.ssukhi (Jul 23, 2009)

now I have a car and have removed all its engine components. It weighs nearly 400kgs now.
I have a custom made a sepex motor, and an curtis-1244 controller


----------



## anand.ssukhi (Jul 23, 2009)

facing problems in placing both : the engine and motor under the hood.and connecting it to the gear box.
we are thinking of connecting engine directly to the gear box shaft and connecting motor via a chain or belt.
please suggest wether I should go for chain or belt?


----------



## mutley (Dec 27, 2009)

im doing the same lol big job there is no hurry on mine lots of resurch needed my electric motor for pulling off and the rear top top end.and i want to keep this under 400kg's


----------



## peggus (Feb 18, 2008)

This is simply not the same situation, in the case of the blazer you have the front and rear wheels locked together by the transmission, their speed relative each other is fixed.

In a parallel over the road hybrid the electric motor operates in torque mode and the ICE tends to operate in power mode (power proportional to throttle). The two drive systems will not fight each other since neither is operating in speed regulation mode.




Voltswagen said:


> Anand
> If you are planning on running both systems at the same time, the front wheels and rear wheels *must still* both rotate the *exact* same number of times.
> I encountered this problem once myself when changing a blown front differential in a 1987 Blazer 4 wheel drive. The Salvage Yard mislabeled the replacement ratio. The gearing of the replacement front differential was slightly different than the existing rear differential.
> When placed in 4 wheel drive, the front and rear wheels were fighting each other as they each wanted to rotate a different number of times. This resulted in chirping of the tires and put tremendous stress on the drivetrain.
> ...


----------



## mutley (Dec 27, 2009)

peggus said:


> This is simply not the same situation, in the case of the blazer you have the front and rear wheels locked together by the transmission, their speed relative each other is fixed.
> 
> In a parallel over the road hybrid the electric motor operates in torque mode and the ICE tends to operate in power mode (power proportional to throttle). The two drive systems will not fight each other since neither is operating in speed regulation mode.


i agree this is why im doing it this way and also i dont need many batteries but i can synchronize the ICE/EM motor and then the ice can take over raound 3/4s rpm of the EM.And also i can change the gearing on the car more easer for every occation.
Iwould say thats part of the plan but there ain't one.

if you was talking to me sorry if not.


----------



## anand.ssukhi (Jul 23, 2009)

peggus said:


> This is simply not the same situation, in the case of the blazer you have the front and rear wheels locked together by the transmission, their speed relative each other is fixed.
> 
> In a parallel over the road hybrid the electric motor operates in torque mode and the ICE tends to operate in power mode (power proportional to throttle). The two drive systems will not fight each other since neither is operating in speed regulation mode.


ya I agree with you and that is why we were going this way earlier.
but then also we would have lots of control to be done by the driver and if we automate it then lot of automation needs to be done.
so we choose to connect both to 1 single pre existing gear box.
so the complexity decreases


----------



## wgeso (Feb 19, 2010)

anand.ssukhi said:


> We are starting on our project of making a hybrid car.
> It is consisting of electrical front wheel drive and ICE driven rear wheels.
> we have taken a small donor car (suzuki 800) and we'll be taking out the engine and attaching an motor directly to the gearbox and we are planning of attaching a small engine maybe from an motorcycle directly to the rear diffrential.
> we'll be having an automatic transmission for the ICE and the pre-exixsting manual one eith the electrical drive train.
> ...


could u share your project for us ~
pictures or spec... 
thanks!


----------



## anand.ssukhi (Jul 23, 2009)

this is our update until now.
we have purchased a donor car, and with some minor works it is in completely good condition. then we sourced in an sepex motor and an curtis 1244 controller for the motor. we ha got the car with all engine components removed now we have arranged a gear box and we are having difficulties in arranging the clutch assembly.
as it is an hybrid so both engine and motor needs to go under the hood so this again is causing difficulties.
we finalized on one position of the motor and engine the red round shows the sprocket which will be connected via chain shown in white. the green region is the place where we will be placing the engine and it will be directly connected to the gear box by a shaft shown in pink.
these all has to be mounted we mounted the gear box motor mounting has to be made and we need to get sprocket and chain....
long way to go!! 
and we have to finish by march end very tuf task


----------



## anand.ssukhi (Jul 23, 2009)

we are using curtis 1244 controller and it does not has any separerate input for brake throttle.
can anyone suggest how to use the regen in it as normal brake..


----------



## major (Apr 4, 2008)

anand.ssukhi said:


> we are using curtis 1244 controller and it does not has any separerate input for brake throttle.
> can anyone suggest how to use the regen in it as normal brake..


Hi anand.

If I remember correctly that controller does not have provision for a second analog input such as would be required to put a proportional signal on a brake pedal. It uses throttle pedal reduction or reverse switch for regen command. You might be able to figure out how to put a switch on the brake pedal to make the controller think you want reverse to get regen. But it would be at a set value, not proportional to pedal travel. And then you would have to set the controller parameters such that reverse speed limit was zero so the car would not travel backwards after coming to a stop. There may be other ways to work around the lack of a second analog input by means of external circuitry. Get creative 

Good luck,

major


----------



## anand.ssukhi (Jul 23, 2009)

ya that is a big problem. we are trying to be creative.
we have arranged a variable voltage source in such a way that it gives 
5-0v on pressing the accelrator pedal and the same device is rotated in reverse direction when the brake is pressed.
just hope that it might work. but still any suggetions are welcome


----------



## anand.ssukhi (Jul 23, 2009)

I have a sepex motor 9" in dia and 14" shaft( the picture above)
it says 
power: 3.2 kw
armature current 90amps
armature voltage 48v
field voltage 18v
rpm 3200
please tell me what maximum torque I should expect.
also the 0rpm torque and any formulas to calculate peak power and peak torque or the motor characteristics based on the above data


----------



## major (Apr 4, 2008)

anand.ssukhi said:


> I have a sepex motor 9" in dia and 14" shaft( the picture above)
> it says
> power: 3.2 kw
> armature current 90amps
> ...


Hi anand,

Rough calculations for the nameplate data show about 7 lb.ft.

If you use a controller for the armature which also over excites the field and limits the armature current to 500 amps, then you could see maybe about 38 lb.ft. maximum. That would be the stall torque, zero RPM. With a 500 amp controller, maximum power would be 500A times 48V or 24kW less motor losses and battery droop. So figure about 24 hp out of the motor.

Hope that helps,

major


----------



## anand.ssukhi (Jul 23, 2009)

Thanx major that was realy helpful. If possible please post the formulas


----------



## anand.ssukhi (Jul 23, 2009)

Here are the latest pics


----------

