# Shift Detected in Obama Stance on Fuel Cells?



## EVDL Archive (Jul 26, 2007)

Heather Zichal, President Obama's top aide on energy and climate change, called hydrogen cells 'an opportunity' for improving fuel economy.

More...


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## bjfreeman (Dec 7, 2011)

News Bot said:


> Heather Zichal, President Obama's top aide on energy and climate change, called hydrogen cells 'an opportunity' for improving fuel economy.


the real link.
http://www.businessweek.com/news/20...y-looks-to-convert-obama-favoring-plug-ins#p1


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## jeremyjs (Sep 22, 2010)

unless they're talking about solid oxide fuel cells that can run on hydrocarbon fuel it's a huge waste of time and a huge step backward. Dealing with hydrogen is just silly and incredibly inefficient.


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## bjfreeman (Dec 7, 2011)

sounds like someone connected with fossil fuels.
thankfully not all agree with you.
http://automobiles.honda.com/fcx-clarity/
they are presently using them in Calif.


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## jeremyjs (Sep 22, 2010)

bjfreeman said:


> sounds like someone connected with fossil fuels.
> thankfully not all agree with you.
> http://automobiles.honda.com/fcx-clarity/
> they are presently using them in Calif.



If I were in the fossil fuel industry I'd probably be for it. The cheapest way to make the stuff is with natural gas. If you're going to use electricity to split water you're in the range of efficiency of an ICEin the power you put to the ground. By the time you split the water, compress it to a ridiculous pressure, then run it through a fuel cell you'll be lucky to get 30% efficiency to the ground doing work. Not to mention the storage and transportation issues of needing to use a 10,000 psi tank to get a useful amount of range and having to store that bomb inside of your car. No thanks.

I'd much rather stick the electricity directly into the car and avoid the whole idiotic process. Oh and get 2-3 times the efficiency out of the electricity that's used. 

The hydrogen economy is a fools errand if there are batteries good and cheap enough. They already are and will only get better.


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

jeremyjs said:


> If I were in the fossil fuel industry I'd probably be for it. The cheapest way to make the stuff is with natural gas. If you're going to use electricity to split water you're in the range of efficiency of an ICEin the power you put to the ground. By the time you split the water, compress it to a ridiculous pressure, then run it through a fuel cell you'll be lucky to get 30% efficiency to the ground doing work. Not to mention the storage and transportation issues of needing to use a 10,000 psi tank to get a useful amount of range and having to store that bomb inside of your car. No thanks.
> 
> I'd much rather stick the electricity directly into the car and avoid the whole idiotic process. Oh and get 2-3 times the efficiency out of the electricity that's used.
> 
> The hydrogen economy is a fools errand if there are batteries good and cheap enough. They already are and will only get better.



*Now there is a smart guy!*

*The whole fuel cells - hydrogen nonsense is just a scam to keep people having to use "Gas Stations" *


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## bjfreeman (Dec 7, 2011)

jeremyjs said:


> If I were in the fossil fuel industry I'd probably be for it. The cheapest way to make the stuff is with natural gas.


So how much natual Gas can you carry with out it being compress (CNG). Where do you get the energy to compress it to 3,000 psi? By your logic all the CNG buses are Bombs.


> If you're going to use electricity to split water you're in the range of efficiency of an ICEin the power you put to the ground. By the time you split the water, compress it to a ridiculous pressure, then run it through a fuel cell you'll be lucky to get 30% efficiency to the ground doing work. Not to mention the storage and transportation issues of needing to use a 10,000 psi tank to get a useful amount of range and having to store that bomb inside of your car. No thanks.


Now for those that don't know about Hydro, thermal and solar produced electricity I would expect that logic.



> I'd much rather stick the electricity directly into the car and avoid the whole idiotic process. Oh and get 2-3 times the efficiency out of the electricity that's used.
> 
> The hydrogen economy is a fools errand if there are batteries good and cheap enough. They already are and will only get better.


 Where do you get the Electric power to recharge you EV?
Remember we are not talking about efficiency at the detriment of the environment.


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## Jason Lattimer (Dec 27, 2008)

Actually, even the highest efficiency industrial electrolysis is only 15% efficient. And having looked into cng, you must be federally certified to do a conversion and the fuel tank has an expiration date.


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## jeremyjs (Sep 22, 2010)

bjfreeman said:


> So how much natual Gas can you carry with out it being compress (CNG). Where do you get the energy to compress it to 3,000 psi? By your logic all the CNG buses are Bombs.
> 
> 
> Now for those that don't know about Hydro, thermal and solar produced electricity I would expect that logic.
> ...


I'm not advocating CNG buses, cars, etc. That said it is a better solution than Hydrogen. CNG is stored at much lower pressures and doesn't leak straight through steel and destroying it's crystalline structure, making it brittle, on the way.


I'd rather use the electricity directly rather than throwing 3/4 or more away trying to make hydrogen work.

I'd rather save the natural gas for heating homes and running turbine peaking plants or better yet a high efficiency combined cycle power plant.


The thing hydrogen is best at is making you throw most of your energy content away trying to get it into a useable form for running through an expensive fuel cell.

Hydrogen is best left to using it where it's absolutely necessary for industrial applications.


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## PhantomPholly (Aug 20, 2008)

I know some folks just love the idea of hydrogen, and if and when the day ever comes that we find a cheap & clean way to make it I might join them. However, as noted in the article it costs $500k just to put in a filling center. Even liquified, you need a lot more storage volume to get the same range as an ICE vehicle using petrol - and even more volume and weight to support the cryogenic containment vessel. In a fuel cell, yes, you might get better mileage than in an ICE, but then you're talking Platinum in the fuel cell, etc. etc. etc.

Assuming for arguments' sake that battery and hydrogen technologies continue to advance at their averaged 50 year pace, batteries will win on simplicity, safety, cost, and capability.


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## MAVA (Apr 13, 2012)

ohh we forgot that every handful of years the hydrogen cylinder(s) will have to be hydrostatic tested(placed in a pool of water for cylinder expansion), and the cylinder(s) will weigh a "ton" as the result of DOT requirements for safety, and the owner of the vehicle will not be able to do a DIY on her/his own car, so the process may cost one-thousand or two...

It will feel like having to put a new engine in a car every other year or so.

But their is relief!!!! The first five years no testing is required...

To much pain....

Lets do EV all the way...

Martin


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## Jason Lattimer (Dec 27, 2008)

MAVA said:


> ohh we forgot that every handful of years the hydrogen cylinder(s) will have to be hydrostatic tested(placed in a pool of water for cylinder expansion), and the cylinder(s) will weigh a "ton" as the result of DOT requirements for safety, and the owner of the vehicle will not be able to do a DIY on her/his own car, so the process may cost one-thousand or two...
> 
> It will feel like having to put a new engine in a car every other year or so.
> 
> ...


I agree. The ngv cars suffer from the same problems.


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## bjfreeman (Dec 7, 2011)

Jason Lattimer said:


> I agree. The ngv cars suffer from the same problems.


every 12 yrs.
Battery replacement for a DIY EV can be $15K, at current prices, every 5-10 yrs.


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## PhantomPholly (Aug 20, 2008)

bjfreeman said:


> every 12 yrs.
> Battery replacement for a DIY EV can be $15K, at current prices, every 5-10 yrs.


At current rate of advancement, 5 year from now batteries will double performance for half price. Hydrogen cylinders will still be just as expensive.


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## Jason Lattimer (Dec 27, 2008)

I would also like to see how many lithium cars people have, have had the need to replace the entire pack all at once. Or just a few bad cell here and there.


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