# News about Firefly's Breakthru Carbon Foam Lead Acid



## sergiu tofanel (Jan 13, 2014)

This is amazing news. The question is: how much, and when can I buy them?


----------



## NanoNano (Jan 29, 2014)

Due to rules here I cannot post a link or prices.
Google "firefly energy international" there is a contact page at the website ( "contact" ) and we can help you thru there.

Just being fair, I was unsure even if posting the info on the battery forum was permitted. But I kept the posting near completely technical, newsworthy.

After contact thru the website, I can help you pretty quickly.


----------



## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

NanoNano said:


> Due to rules here I cannot post a link or prices.
> Google "firefly energy international" there is a contact page at the website ( "contact" ) and we can help you thru there....


There is a parts vendor subforum here where you can post a link with prices, etc. Of course, you can also buy some advertising on the right side of the screen...


----------



## PhantomPholly (Aug 20, 2008)

NanoNano said:


> Due to rules here I cannot post a link or prices.
> Google "firefly energy international" there is a contact page at the website ( "contact" ) and we can help you thru there.
> 
> Just being fair, I was unsure even if posting the info on the battery forum was permitted. But I kept the posting near completely technical, newsworthy.
> ...


This is somewhat old news - we followed the original development of this several years ago. At that time, the promise was for much greater energy-density, but the product actually delivered had only about 1.1x typical lead-acid energy density because only one of the electrodes was modified.

Does this new announcement mean that they have successfully replaced both electrodes with foamed material? If so, do you have a product specification sheet you can post?

Note that even if 5x energy density is achieved this is still not competitive with LiIon in that regard, but would certainly be useful for other purposes (i.e. grid storage, etc.).


----------



## palmer_md (Jul 22, 2011)

I was going to say the same as Phantom, that we've followed this for a long time. I remember in 2002 when it was still Caterpillar. They never did come up with any great breakthrough and then went out of business.

http://gigaom.com/2010/03/15/latest-battery-startup-shutdown-firefly-energy/

how did this business start back up?


----------



## PhantomPholly (Aug 20, 2008)

Here are some of the old threads, in reverse chronological order:

*India's Electrotherm Said Considering Buying Firefly*

*Firefly gone but did any of the technology make it to market?*

*FireFly's Lights go Out*

*Firefly goes bankrupt*

*Firefly batteries*

*Who will make the EV battery for the masses?*

*[EVDL] Firefly Oasis Batteries anyone?*

*FireFly Oasis is now on sale!!* (May 2009)

*[EVDL] Firefly Specs*

*Firefly Battery Prototypes Hit the Road*

*Firefly Battery* (Oct 2008)


----------



## palmer_md (Jul 22, 2011)

ok...answered my own question.



> In March 2010, Firefly Energy filed for bankruptcy. The funding required to perfect the technology in a startup company is extensive, and until the technology is perfected, a company cannot sell a product to consumers. Unfortunately, this is precisely what happened when Firefly Energy first established itself as a leader of new battery technology. However, the technology itself was sound, and many interested parties recognized the potential of carbon foam use in lead acid batteries.
> 
> On October 1, 2010, Firefly International Energy Co. acquired assets of Firefly Energy from the Bankruptcy Estate and resurrected its operations at the same location. Firefly International Energy Co. is backed by solid support of technical vision, manufacturing and customer base in India.


----------



## PhantomPholly (Aug 20, 2008)

Answered my own question too (about whether one or both electrodes use foam tech):



> The Oasis™ Renewable Energy is the first generation Firefly International Energy, Co. deep cycle battery utilizing a Microcell™ Foam negative electrode.


--- From the Spec Sheet

So, this will not have much better total energy density than a new floodie, but will promise many more charge cycles and resistance to sag due to over-discharge as compared with traditional cells. That is still a benefit; for example, it makes lead much more attractive for golf carts and grid storage provided price remains close to traditional floodies.

I'm much less excited about this, though, than I would be if they had tested and deployed versions using both electrodes foamed.


----------



## rmay635703 (Oct 23, 2008)

The other issue is cost, the reason to foam the lead is to reduce the cost of the battery.

If I have to pay 2-4 times as much as a normal floodie its not really worthwhile.

I hope they keep moving onwards and upwards and ditch that useless group 31 battery size and foam both plates, sadly everything takes time.

Maybe these will be in my EV next (if the price is right)

Most EVs cannot fit 13.4" long batteries, 10.5" yes 13.4" NO.

For me that is a deal killer. Also I have no idea what the peukert is on these exactly, Ah 56m at 75 amps, that is about half what the $200 6v greensavers put out (give or take) to 80% DOD. So they are about the same capacity weight wise as the greensaver gel, the only thing I can hope for would be less sag which would convert 75amps my ev usually uses to about 60amps if the voltage is a bit higher.

Also the 110ahr isn't impressive, regular 12v deep cycles can be as high as 180ahr but likely have a higher peukert as well.

Ah well. Someone among us will have to bite the bullet and get pricing.

I wish they would sell standard sized 200-300ahr foam lead 2v cells 

Anyone want to get the pricing data?


----------



## NanoNano (Jan 29, 2014)

To keep it simple, the main advance is large gains in electrical durability ( cycle life ) in deep discharge operation and much smaller voltage droop deeper into spec nameplate amp hrs, deep discharge. 

Say a common quality flooded battery can only discharge 50% of spec capacity, before hitting 10.5 volts. We get to 80% discharge with 11.5 volts thereabouts, and hence can use more of the spec nameplate amp hr capacity in real world. We prefer to not recommend 90% deep discharge for long service life, but we are far better than say common flooded 50% for long service life?

240 amp charging rate ( better for lots of stuff esp regenerative braking )
50 amp discharge near continuously.
Neither reduces cycle life. No electrical damage from either.

The 1200 cycle 80% deep discharge barely caused any electrical wear on the battery, the interior upon teardown was pristine.

The nameplate energy density of the Firefly Oasis 3D is nominally equivalent to some common lead acid, the usable fraction due to far lower DOD voltage droop much larger in most other lead acid, the usable % of spec amp hrs, % of spec capacity is far higher in the Firefly ( at equiv droop ).

The immunity to damage of various kinds that affect common lead acid and lithium Ion is significantly improved in the Firefly. 

3x the charge cycling lifetime over most sealed lead acid is significant.
It is not an idle claim. Addresses the main weakness of lead acid actually, electrical service lifetime

Nope this is not a breakthrough in lithium ion energy density, it addresses the main weaknesses in lead acid, service lifetime in hard use ( electrical cycling ) and also operation service lifetime in hard desert use that kills off common lead acid far too quickly. ( no need for active cooling either )

And durability of deep discharge service, that is often over claimed in many DD lead acids of actual far shorter electrical service life than FF, even if claimed as deep discharge, it might be of short service deep discharge, but not the Firefly - it is deep discharge with 3x longer service life.

As to specifics of what transpired prior to the earlier closing (BK) I know but am not permitted to comment. In the 3D manufacture there were no showstoppers, just execution errors that need not have occurred. 

In the 3D2 the situation was more complicated, and not material to the commercial prospects of the 3D which remain a considerable technical and performance advance over ALL lead acid as far as I know, considerable and even with conservative paper specs of the Firefly Oasis 3D.

Easy to disparage, more important to deliver actual significant advances over all lead acid, is my guess. 

As to future prospects for microcell carbon foam PbA battery technology, there remains more to gain but I am not at liberty to discuss in the slightest.

My main interest is to see folks use this and find they might be amazed at the cost effectiveness, the astounding electrical durability. And deep discharge actual performance that might be pleasing to some without bottomless pockets. 

Ever had to pay to replace a Lithium Ion pack for some unexpected reason? Might be a reality check as to its practicality, if you do not have a bottomless bank account and need your pack to last through all kinds of real world electrical service abuse. Nevermind the safety factor.

Firefly is here now and shipping.


----------



## NanoNano (Jan 29, 2014)

It was bought at auction, and the restart was complicated logistically, not for technical reasons in the slightest. All I might properly say.


----------



## rmay635703 (Oct 23, 2008)

I agree with much of what you say and find lithium to be an irritation to setup...



NanoNano said:


> Firefly is here now and shipping.


But for how much?

I and others here have bought non-traditional battery packs, the true greensavers have been wonderfull to me, excluding the lower under load operating voltage. I would strongly recommend you tear one of the greensaver high tech lead silicone batteries to see if you could combine technologies. Given its just a chinese company, eh?

I would buy fireflies but I would need to modify my car for them to fit and
I would also need for them to be cost competitive.

What retail outlets can they be purchased through?

Is there any discount for say 7 batteries or 12 batteries?

I would test and toute their virtues but only if I use them and can justify them on a cost basis.

Want me to be a spokesperson ? Just give me a good deal that I can get into one of my EVs. If they work well you will get advertizing, I can label my car up any way you like if you donate them 

But I am in Wisconsin.

My car is one of the few EVs that REALLY gets noticed, no matter where it goes.

Oh, and I work for a Defense Auto company, treat me well and I will let R&D know you guys exist again.

Cheers
Ryan


----------



## racunniff (Jan 14, 2009)

rmay635703 said:


> I hope they keep moving onwards and upwards and ditch that useless group 31 battery size and foam both plates, sadly everything takes time.
> 
> Maybe these will be in my EV next (if the price is right)
> 
> Most EVs cannot fit 13.4" long batteries, 10.5" yes 13.4" NO.


I'd second the comment on the Group 31 geometry - Group 24 and/or golf-cart geometry would be a much wider audience. Group 31 limits you pretty much to the commercial truck market. Group 24 would open you up to the general automotive market as well (perhaps - depending on cost) to the EV hobbyist market.

The three key metrics for me would be:

1. Wh/Kg - does not have to beat lithium, but has to be within 30% or so
2. Discharge cycles - what you posted here is looking encouraging but more data would be helpful
3. And, of course, cost - $/Wh

One other point - 50A continuous is a little on the low side for some EV applications (beats the 100AH LiFePO4 @ 0.3C but is behind the 180AH). I'd also second the comment about wanting to see the Peukert curve.


----------



## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

rmay635703 said:


> But for how much?


I found listings on ebay for Firefly group 31 batteries by a seller called "fireflyinternationalenergy". BIN price is $325 + shipping. 

Spec sheet in listing says the battery delivers approximately 100Ah, weighs 75# and claims 1000 cycles at 80% DOD.

I will leave it to each individual to determine if this battery is a compelling value proposition over other batteries (flooded & AGM, or the various flavors of lithium).


----------



## NanoNano (Jan 29, 2014)

Tesseract said:


> I found listings on ebay for Firefly group 31 batteries by a seller called "fireflyinternationalenergy". BIN price is $325 + shipping.
> 
> Spec sheet in listing says the battery delivers approximately 100Ah, weighs 75# and claims 1000 cycles at 80% DOD.
> 
> I will leave it to each individual to determine if this battery is a compelling value proposition over other batteries (flooded & AGM, or the various flavors of lithium).


We do have a volume discount price schedule, contact the factory for info related to EV pack purchases. If you indicate in your webform submission you are from DIY Electric Car, I will try to help you get a further discount for a pack purchase. We want American innovation used and enjoyed by enthusiasts. We are not the cheapest Lead Acid, we are likely the lowest cost of ownership for hard electrical service conditions, with lifetime far surpassing any other sealed lead acid without the mess of flooded, and better electrical performance too.


----------



## rmay635703 (Oct 23, 2008)

NanoNano said:


> We do have a volume discount price schedule, contact the factory for info related to EV pack purchases. If you indicate in your webform submission you are from DIY Electric Car, I will try to help you get a further discount for a pack purchase.


Hmm, I might burn some money and give you a try, another source says you have 4v 360ahr in pre-production, any idea what dimensions those might end up being ?

I would REQUIRE local pickup, I would never try to pay for a lead acid battery being shipped.


----------



## NanoNano (Jan 29, 2014)

We are in early stages of the 6v and 4v (prototypes produced, no problems of note), it is not released to production (exact schedule unknown due to focus elsewhere, the announcements? were premature, marketing feelers), as we are very busy with production of the G31 12v presently. 

Orders are increasing as of late and order fulfillment is the priority for revenue (we are a business and that is our near term focus/ imperative). 

After folks get past the (inflated) Lithium vs Lead Acid debate noise, and read about the specifics of significant electrical durability gains in the Firefly Oasis 3D 12v Grp31, and get past the history prior, which is not our present - Firefly actually is and remains very compelling.

And we have been told so by many satisfied customers - there is no Lead Acid with our durability and performance gains esp in a convenient Sealed Lead Acid. Our largest challenge is getting the word out and countering disbelief of the actual performance gains that matter in real world service, truth be told.

The 6v and 4v are being engineered in the same box as the 12v Group 31 for cost reasons to avoid needless tooling costs as yet. I do not foresee in the very short(est) term any product outside of the present Group 31 size format being shipped. Even though I wish otherwise.

We are located in Peoria Illinois, you are welcome to come to the factory for pickup. 

You are likely to get a tour of our labs by our Chief Engineer and others, if the timing is not inconvenient for staff. Our staff likes giving tours and are proud of our labs, team and breakthrough product.


----------



## PhantomPholly (Aug 20, 2008)

Ya, the deal originally posited by Firefly is that these new batteries would cost "about the same" as traditional lead acid for the same watt-hours.

Peukert effect should be reduced due to greater surface area for reaction. I think that's what some of the charts show (less voltage sag with discharge).


----------



## NanoNano (Jan 29, 2014)

Here is a succinct 1 pager about gains in Deep Discharge cycle life versus other lead acid products elsewhere. We have another longer paper with lots more relevant data I will provide later. Because of how the pdf is rendered in thumbnail here, the text is obscured. Click to download the 1 page file and you will read in depth.


----------



## PhantomPholly (Aug 20, 2008)

Tesseract said:


> I found listings on ebay for Firefly group 31 batteries by a seller called "fireflyinternationalenergy". BIN price is $325 + shipping.
> 
> Spec sheet in listing says the battery delivers approximately 100Ah, weighs 75# and claims 1000 cycles at 80% DOD.
> 
> I will leave it to each individual to determine if this battery is a compelling value proposition over other batteries (flooded & AGM, or the various flavors of lithium).


For comparison, a Sears 115 amp hour Die Hard battery runs about $125.

So, for triple the price FireFly appears to offer triple the cycles. Not compelling without serious counter-examples.


----------



## Karter2 (Nov 17, 2011)

PhantomPholly said:


> For comparison, a Sears 115 amp hour Die Hard battery runs about $125.
> 
> So, for triple the price FireFly appears to offer triple the cycles. Not compelling without serious counter-examples.


 ..But how many Ahrs will that (115Ahr) Die hard actually deliver in EV use ?
Without examining detailed results from comparative tests,..my understanding is the Firefly has much more "useable capacity" at high discharges.


PS.. i could not find that $125 Sears offer, and infact few 100+Ahr , Gp31 AGMs for much under $200 !
Infact i would think a better comparison might be to the Optima AGM batteries .. ( $250 for 75Ahr )
..but i am sure there are deals to be found.


----------



## rmay635703 (Oct 23, 2008)

NanoNano said:


> After folks get past the (inflated) Lithium vs Lead Acid debate noise, and read about the specifics of significant electrical durability gains in the Firefly Oasis 3D 12v Grp31, and get past the history prior, which is not our present - Firefly actually is and remains very compelling.


It is compelling to me but again, lithium being the same cost per wthr means that this battery must do a few things. Also I have no issues with your prior history at all.

1. Tolerate severe overcharge & float conditions (why else would you use lead if not to use a less expensive charger and forgo BMS)

2. Tolerate EXTREME discharge rates, it appears it can but I see no information as to what your battery does at 450amps or at a constant 175amp draw (which does happen around here) Peukert would give us a good idea but with these types of batteries, lifespan effects may occur.
Also no idea what voltage it holds from a full charge at different discharge rates.

3. It must Fit in existing fleets, 90% of the installed EV crowd (talking from 2007 on downward) including golf carts, lift carts, trolleys and everything else is going to be based on Trojan T125's or Group 24s. This market is 100 times the size of Group 31. If this is difficult for you to accomplish there are many engineers here (myself included) who may offer practical methods of making your existing casings into a different length while remaining strong without NEW DIES, we have done such things here (for other one off purposes not relating to batteries but water proof containers) 
You would then end up with (likely) an 8v battery based on the geometry you have but shorter at the same or a little better ahr. Another option is 3rd party casings which are not that difficult to get either.

4. Tolerate unequal loads and be possible to equalize without damage.

Many lead acid rigs, including my 1981 model like having random phantom loads on different portions of the battery string, also even on equally loaded strings as batteries age they tend to age at different rates, how your batteries handle this situation will make it more/less attractive than other models.

Answer the above questions and we will start getting more comfortable with the tech.



NanoNano said:


> And we have been told so by many satisfied customers - there is no Lead Acid with our durability and performance gains esp in a convenient Sealed Lead Acid. Our largest challenge is getting the word out and countering disbelief of the actual performance gains that matter in real world service, truth be told.
> 
> The 6v and 4v are being engineered in the same box as the 12v Group 31 for cost reasons to avoid needless tooling costs as yet. I do not foresee in the very short(est) term any product outside of the present Group 31 size format being shipped. Even though I wish otherwise.
> 
> ...


I don't disagree and if the deal is right I might stop down there and pick up a basic 48v or 72v string to test on my EV, I will need some of my questions above answered though, hopefully someone here plunks down the change to buy one battery to do high load tests and evaluation.
So are you open at all on Saturday? 

As more people use the batteries successfully and as production ramps up and price ramps down you will see more interest.

With great claims come great skepticism.


----------



## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

PhantomPholly said:


> For comparison, a Sears 115 amp hour Die Hard battery runs about $125.
> 
> So, for triple the price FireFly appears to offer triple the cycles. Not compelling without serious counter-examples.


Again, I leave it to the individual to decide if the Firefly battery is compelling or not (I have no skin in this game, obviously) but I will take issue with your conclusion that paying triple the price for triple the cycle life isn't compelling in and of itself because it takes a lot of work to replace a battery pack... twice.

Also, the discharge curve seems to be flatter and with less Peukert effect, so you can actually get more of the Ah you paid for out of the Firefly battery.

I've driven lots of different EVs and a couple have gone from lead-acid to lithium and let me tell you, the difference in driveability is staggering. Lead-acid packs really start to sag once they've been drained past 50% DOD and range has noticeably declined after being cycled about half their claimed number of cycles; Firefly claims to address both those issues - and give more cycles - at a modest price premium to AGM.

That said, my personal opinion is that the Firefly batteries are still best suited for those applications where the heavy weight of lead-acid isn't a disadvantage, but where improved cycle life and flatness of discharge will be appreciated. Golf carts and forklifts come to mind, as well as marine applications like trolling motors and house power on boats, and similar for RVs. The luxury RV market, in particular, could be an easy sell.


----------



## NanoNano (Jan 29, 2014)

PhantomPholly said:


> For comparison, a Sears 115 amp hour Die Hard battery runs about $125.
> 
> So, for triple the price FireFly appears to offer triple the cycles. Not compelling without serious counter-examples.


 The ebay price is a single quantity retail #. If you buy a pack we offer discounts, if you are a dealer (reseller) or manufacturer, there are further discount schedules. If you are here on DIY EC, I'd try to get you better price than individual person volume discounts. I almost sense you might dislike US invented, engineered and manufactured innovations? You keep at it well, over trivia. You even cite the highest discharge 5c as our amp hrs, when everyone else cites 10c+, where we are 110, and 118(20c) amp hrs.( as shown in the spec). Not a big deal, but noted. And in volume for any EV pack purchase, we are not triple the price. NOr will Sears offer volume discounts either. Nor is a Sears battery going to have any useful desert heat service, nor will a Sears battery be able to survive 6 months of completely discharged storage and crank back up consistently regaining 90% of spec capacity within 5 charge discharge cycles. A conventional lead acid of any quality, will be dead after 6 months of discharged storage, including Sears. Someone told me about the Braille batteries as being amazing, turns out their useful amp hours in real service is laughable, and they are far more expensive / amphrs than Firefly and hardly as durable electrical service. I hope you put in your own elbow grease to design and build some best battery in the world, it likely will be amazing(sic). We had an inquiry from a houseboat owner, he was indicating he needed 1500 amp hrs(nameplate), as his 50% DOD limit by Crown, to his his safe operation limit of 10.5v for his fridge(at 50% dod). We hold 11.47 at 25 amp discharge at 80% DOD, and hence need far smaller nameplate amp hrs to provide the same effective actual amp hrs delivered capacity ( vs nameplate stuff ).


----------



## rmay635703 (Oct 23, 2008)

NanoNano said:


> The ebay price is a single quantity retail #. If you buy a pack we offer discounts, if you are a dealer (reseller) or manufacturer, there are further discount schedules. If you are here on DIY EC, I'd try to get you better price than individual person volume discounts. I almost sense you might dislike US invented, engineered and manufactured innovations? You keep at it well, over trivia. You even cite the highest discharge 5c as our amp hrs, when everyone else cites 10c+, where we are 110, and 118(20c) amp hrs.( as shown in the spec). .


Not at all, human nature is to question claims, even factual.

5c would be 550amps discharge which is a typical peak load while we accelerate our respective vehicles. Would be interesting to know capacity and life under hard discharge.

In my case flooded lead has been fine because I am able to buy working 6v deepcycle batteries from a junkyard for $25ea. Capacity is usually 80-90%. In terms of price no battery can compare.

The other folks here spend thousands of dollars on $1/ahr lithium batteries and charging systems.

If your battery is cheaper than the basic lithium (similar to agm) and has nearly the same rated life (which it appears it does nearly match low end lithium on that respect) Doesn't sag under very high discharge (which it doesn't appear to do so). Is easier to charge than standard lithium or AGM (no imbalance issues)

Then there is absolutely no reason to object to your tech.

I also agree that the sears comment is rather unfounded, I would tend to compare your battery to a greensaver or high end agm in terms of usable capacity or life, since its not much in common with standard fla.

However talk is cheap, until I or someone else here runs their own trials over the next few years we won't really know how well these fair.

Such is the price of the early adopter.


----------



## PhantomPholly (Aug 20, 2008)

Karter2 said:


> ..But how many Ahrs will that (115Ahr) Die hard actually deliver in EV use ?


A Die Hard is not a good choice for EVs in any event - I chose it as a price comparator for home grid storage (perhaps solar backup).



> Without examining detailed results from comparative tests,..my understanding is the Firefly has much more "useable capacity" at high discharges.


Agreed - however, the point is that the difference is not that great. The difference comes in the number of times it can be cycled. That difference looks on the charts to be about 3x.



> PS.. i could not find that $125 Sears offer, and infact few 100+Ahr , Gp31 AGMs for much under $200 !


Try here. I notice that that 115 amp-hour rating is for a 20 hour discharge, whereas the FireFly can discharge faster without ill effects. However, since the uses I was contemplating (i.e. grid storage for your home) would have the batteries discharge over many hours this is reasonable for comparing them. 

For EV use, I would think the FireFly would be a good choice for short range.



> Infact i would think a better comparison might be to the Optima AGM batteries .. ( $250 for 75Ahr )
> ..but i am sure there are deals to be found.


Ok, so now FireFly is starting to look a lot better. My search was very cursory - I just took the first battery that claimed 100 amp-hours.


----------



## NanoNano (Jan 29, 2014)

rmay635703 said:


> It is compelling to me but again, lithium being the same cost per wthr means that this battery must do a few things. Also I have no issues with your prior history at all.
> 
> 1. Tolerate severe overcharge & float conditions (why else would you use lead if not to use a less expensive charger and forgo BMS)
> 
> ...



With great skeptics, comes more skepticism possibly? 

( when will the skepticism merely abate, I do not need an end per se, but the flogging continues - buy already !! ) 

Deliver we will, if you order they will get built ( and shipped if you let yourself use the convenience of modern freight shipping so no saturdays ruined needlessly - we like our engineers happy )


----------



## onegreenev (May 18, 2012)

I see them trying to inject Lead acid back into the game. It is too little too late for the electric car game. But for the Golf Cart it can still be a player. There is just too much new stuff on the market to go backwards. It might be best to go play on the Golf Cart sites for the lead acid batteries. There may be a few biters on here but once a lead acid person tries out lithium there will be no turning back to lead acid. Hands down.


----------



## rochesterricer (Jan 5, 2011)

Wish you guys made motorcycle-sized batteries. My SV650 seems to want a new battery every couple of years.


----------



## PhantomPholly (Aug 20, 2008)

onegreenev said:


> I see them trying to inject Lead acid back into the game. It is too little too late for the electric car game. But for the Golf Cart it can still be a player. There is just too much new stuff on the market to go backwards. It might be best to go play on the Golf Cart sites for the lead acid batteries. There may be a few biters on here but once a lead acid person tries out lithium there will be no turning back to lead acid. Hands down.


I agree - even with their foam-on-both-electrodes technology it simply cannot have the range.

However, outside of propulsion price per Kwh rules, along with factors such as ease of use (no balancing?) and longevity. I can see where they might make inroads there for many years to come if they can realize cost savings through scalability.


----------



## Karter2 (Nov 17, 2011)

This is definitely a step up for lead batteries and has some big advantages for specific uses.
But for EV's, its one big failure is still the weight which works directly against performance .
I suspect LifePo4 prices will fall faster than these battery prices and even now you can buy salvaged (new ?) Leaf packs for $0.25 Whr, which is about what you are paying for these Fireflys .
..and of course the Leaf cells are 30% of the weight !
But, for back up / solar storage, with more shallow charge/discharge cycles, Firefly could be the way.


----------



## PZigouras (Jun 5, 2010)

Why is the battery so heavy?? I was under the impression that carbon foam was lighter...

It's a 220 RC, group 31 at 75 pounds. The blue-top [marine] deep-cycle flooded group 31's that I purchased from Autozone were 210 RC at 62 pounds.

That's + 10 pounds, so obviously they have the same amount of lead (if not more???)


----------



## onegreenev (May 18, 2012)

PhantomPholly said:


> I agree - even with their foam-on-both-electrodes technology it simply cannot have the range.
> 
> However, outside of propulsion price per Kwh rules, along with factors such as ease of use (no balancing?) and longevity. I can see where they might make inroads there for many years to come if they can realize cost savings through scalability.


Might be a perfect solution for cost effective Solar Fast Charge station that needs a HUGE battery storage bank. Doing so with Lithium could be cost prohibitive for someone setting up a station of this sort.


----------

