# Electric MEV rocket kit car



## jacksdad (Apr 13, 2015)

Hi I'm new to the forum my son Jack and I are building a kit car in the uk, this is a exoskeleton kit car and usually takes a Zetec engine and ib5 gearbox however we have decided to run it with a motor we have acquired a twin hpevs ac23 motor unit from an electric bike.

Experience, we have skills that would be expected to build a kit car plus my son who is keen on electronics has designed and built an arduino mega based micro controller unit for the standard car electrics with his own PCB and power circuits, so we are familiar with general electrics and electronics

Range and performance, our main priority is performance with hopefully a 70-100 mile range the car will weigh around 500kg on the road the motor unit is good for 240 Nm up to 5500 rpm at 144v with a 100ah LiPo battery pack so we are hoping for 3-4s 0-60 times with a direct drive chain differential probably 5-6:1 ratio giving a top speed of around 100mph at 8000 rpm with 60cm wheels.

We are at an early stage as yet we have a rolling chassis and have bought the motor but need to plan the differential unit and a frame needs fabricating to fit into the existing chassis mounts for the Zetec engine plus we need to buy the batteries and try to fit them into the car somehow as space is tight.

Any comments very welcome particularly on our drive ratio and realistic views on the hoped for performance etc

Thanks for your input


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## jacksdad (Apr 13, 2015)

Here are a few pictures of the build so far:








Aimimg for somethig like this :


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## tylerwatts (Feb 9, 2012)

Hi jacksdad 
Do you have any pictures of your drive system please? I'm very curious about this. Do you know what batteries you plan to use?


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## jacksdad (Apr 13, 2015)

Hi 

So we are still designing this but so far the existing engine bay with my existing ford focus IB5 driveshafts looks like this :



The twin motor setup has a output sprocket of 13T this will connect via a chain to a Jack shaft with 39T sprocket then a 15T sprocket on the jack shaft will connect to a final 45T sprocket on the differential unit this will give 13:39 + 15:45 = 6:1 final drive ratio. The differential unit is made bespoke by this company:

https://www.facebook.com/WestgarageEngineering



The differential unit looks like this:



which contains a quaife chain differential and is built to replace an IB5 gearbox so should work with my driveshaft setup. The same company is making up the jack shaft and a bearing holders for the driveshafts all in one unit.

With regard to batteries i'm not sure as yet apart from needing 144v and 100 Ah and lithium i'm open to suggestions


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## tylerwatts (Feb 9, 2012)

I'm very familiar with the rocket. Short of having built one myself. I'd be concerned about the amount of space your jack shafts arrangement will take up. Where do you plan to place your batteries? May I ask why 144v x 100Ah? Please post a picture of the motors. I'm sceptical you will get the acceleration and top speed you want. Depending on battery type it will take alot of current to get that. What range do you want to have? 

Please don't feel I'm being negative. I'm hoping to prompt you to see where you might fall short and help achieve your goals. Regards


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## jacksdad (Apr 13, 2015)

Hi



> Please don't feel I'm being negative. I'm hoping to prompt you to see where you might fall short and help achieve your goals. Regards


No that's great i posted here to get feedback. The motors are two of these :

http://www.hpevs.com/power-graphs-ac-23.htm

we are note sure exactly how we are going to attach them currently the arrangement is like this :



With the motors side by side in a compact unit that fitted in a bike joined with a belt and a final sprocket drive

We are also looking at something like this :



So in order to work out the acceleration and top speed i used the power graphs from the HPEVS website above to give me the maximum torque, i was told by the engineering company that made up the bike unit that they were getting effectively double the graph for one of the ac23 motors at 144v hence the need for 144v. In order to get this i need nearly 500amps for each motor at peak and have been told that i could get 10c from lithium fe batteries at peak for a few seconds so thats why i chose 100 Ah. 

So for acceleration using a simple spreadsheet i modelled the torque curve from the hpevs website to give 250 Nm at 0 rpm to 220 Nm at 5000 rpm dropping off to 70 Nm at 8000 rpm modelled at 2 strait line graphs. So at 0 rpm we get a torque at the wheel of 1500 (6:1) force at the ground of 4960 N (60cm wheels) so 0.8G with a 600Kg car. 

Continuing with this gives my 3-4s 0-6o mph and at 8000 rpm 6:1 and 60cm wheels gives 94 mph.

On the MEV owners forum someone in NZ has built a sonic with a HPEVS Ac35X2 motor at 16o Ah batteries at 144V and has got these kind of acceleration times so i am hopeful they are using a 5:1 BMW differential.

The jack shaft differential unit i'm hoping will have a cross sectional of 40cm high and 30 cm deep and should fit nicely along the back of the engine bay with the motor units in the front of the engine bay, i then have to fit half my batteries around these and in the space behind the seats and half in the front of the rocket under the bonnet its gonna be tight but feasable i think i could also put some in a central tunnel.

At the moment i have not chosen batteries so would be interetsed in what people would think would be the best to drive my motors as planned but basically 44 x 3.2 lithium batteries each 100Ah.


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## ken will (Dec 19, 2009)

Why handcuff the two motors together?

If you have each motor driving a single wheel, you have much better traction control.


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## jacksdad (Apr 13, 2015)

Ummm but how easy is this does this not need some bespoke motor controller programming to optimise traction and differential control, not sure how we would implement this


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## samwichse (Jan 28, 2012)

Even if you just ran them in series or parallel with one driving each wheel separately, you would get half your power to the ground if one wheel was slipping. Plus you totally eliminate your diff. Sounds win-win to me.


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## ken will (Dec 19, 2009)

jacksdad said:


> Ummm but how easy is this does this not need some bespoke motor controller programming to optimise traction and differential control, not sure how we would implement this


Depends on how precise you want to control.
A simple way would be to compare the RPMs and if one is 2% or more faster than the other , lower the power to that motor. 

If you can find some high school or college "Nerd" he or she could slap together a more sofisticated Arduino or Raspberry PI system in no time.
Thanks to cell-phones and hobby drones, 3D Gyros and accelerometers are only a few dollars.
If you want to get even more control, measure the steering wheel angle and add more power to the outside wheel in the turns.

Can you imagine how cool a 4 wheel electric drive system for the new sport of "Drifting" could be!!


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## tylerwatts (Feb 9, 2012)

Jacksdad 
I think the guys are making this complicated. What controller are you using? You should have 2. Typically HPEVS recommend Curtis controllers. These have a paring function and can even operate with an electronic differential function. That means you only send throttle and brake signals to the lead controller and between them they decide how to share the workload. It acts as a type of limited slip differential also as they both make power even when turning and if one tyre spins up the other continues to drive the car. 

I think you have a good plan. Personally I don't like all the chain and jack shaft business. I'd try use belt drive. Probably still need a jack shaft but only a rather short one for each motor. I'd build each motor and shafts up as one unit to bolt into the car and connect the drive shaft. This will make the arrangements compact. But don't let me take over your build. I must work on my own.


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## jacksdad (Apr 13, 2015)

Thanks for all the input guys, I think driving each wheel seprately is a future development, I have my driveshafts already and the Quaife chain LSD is a pretty sophisticated beast and is designed to maximise torque to the road and I suspect will compare favourably with untuned controllers , however my son is the quoted arduino nerd and so we may develop this is the future.

TylerWatts in your earlier post you were doubtful about my performance expectations did you have a further comment on my calculations etc

One thing I was looking at was seeing if there was any advantage in having a different drive ratio for each motor ie maybe 5:1 on one and 7:1 on the other and whether that would extend the acceleration and top speed but when I plotted it I didn't think it made any difference has anyone any view on this.

Thanks again for your interest


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## jacksdad (Apr 13, 2015)

Also you mentioned you knew about the rocket are you based in the US I know there are suppliers there have you seen one, what are you building ??


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## jwiger (Oct 18, 2014)

jacksdad said:


> ...13:39 + 15:45 = 6:1 final drive ratio.s


This is a 1/3(1/3) reduction. The gearing you have planned would give you a 9:1 gear reduction. It is multiplicative, not additive. 

Let me know your actual tire size (from the sidewall) and I will be happy to kick some numbers around for you.

Additionally it is typically bad practice to use simple fraction reduction in an automotive type application. you don't want the same teeth to always met the same [link] each time, a close off shoot like 13:40 would help even out the wear of the chain and sprockets. That's why OEM gears come in odd ratios like 3.73:1 and 4.1:1.


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## jacksdad (Apr 13, 2015)

Oops yep my bad the actual reduction planned are motor 13t to 26t on jack shaft then 15t jack shaft to 45t differential, the tyres are 205/40 17, cheers for your help

Jon


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## tylerwatts (Feb 9, 2012)

Hi Jon 
I'm in the UK, down the road from the original designer of the Rocket, Mr Mills himself.

I'm sceptical you will ever get your forecast weight. How have you calculated this? Also your acceleration calcs must include the weight of at least the skinniest of a driver but ideally you or your son. Also you must consider an imperfect traction condition. And drag plays a big factor especially given the open nature of your car. Not wanting to put a downer on things but I believe you will see times nearer 6-7s 0-60mph. Still very respectable given the modest power output.

Where are you based sir?


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## jacksdad (Apr 13, 2015)

Hi 

Near Oxford. 

I think we are a little more optimistic than that, the chassis so far weighs 225KG or so batteries are 150kg the motors 60kg giving 430kg brackets drivetrain etc +1 slim driver (gonna have to find that haha) puts it to 600kgish

I factored 0.01 rolling resistance and 0.3 drag coefficient which has minimal affect to 60mph. If you look on the mev forum a guy there has built a sonic with an ac35 x2 and is getting 3.2s 0-60 with similar weights and torques.

I am wondering about the inefficiencies of the drive chain arrangement and might think about the ac 35x2 which would allow for a 5:1 ratio through a bmw diff as the sonic above.


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## jacksdad (Apr 13, 2015)

Ok so we have moved on with this with a lot of help from the engineers at the motor suppliers and the chain differential guy most ace chaps! The latest plan is to use the ac35x2 rather than the twin bike motor but still use the quaife diff chain drive, something like this:





This would give a fixed ratio of 4.6:1 using a 13T sprocket on the motor and a 60T sprocket on the differentil which is probably a bit short for full acceleration but would give good top speed I would really like to do this :



This has a little jack shaft unit in front of the motor and by using 13T sprocket on the motor and 13T on the jack shaft to connect to the diff i can alter the primary sprocket on the jack shaft to give a number of diffferent ratio's :

T	ratio
13	4.615
14	4.97
15	5.325
16	5.68
17	6.035
18	6.39
19	6.745
20	7.1

Modelling the performance i think 6:035 is probably the best ratio but would be interested in view on that.

It also means i can move the motor into the engina bay a bit more but does make it tight on the left side chassis rail.


Comments welcome this is the torque power curve for the motor :


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## jwiger (Oct 18, 2014)

I've attached a screen capture of my gear ratio tool. It plots the MPH over RPM for each gear combination. I've used your 60:13 as a "final drive" ratio and plotted the motor to jackshaft ratios on the list using the 15T - 20T to model it. You can see the wheel speed per motor RPM on the right. The 20:13 ratio (6th gear) will give you approximately 1476 Nm of wheel torque and about 501kg of wheel thrust. This is all before the motor hits it's torque knee. At 600Kg with driver you are looking at less that 1g of acceleration and an RPM limited speed of 85 mph. This is all before factoring in drag and friction.


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## jacksdad (Apr 13, 2015)

Thats really cool thanks:

so acceleration should be 0.83G = 8.3m/s/s with rolling friction 0.01 (6KG) and drag with xsection 0.5 m^2 and drag coef 0.3 is < 7KG at 60 mph (0.5 x 0.3 x 1.25 x v^2 x 0.5) i make that 60mph ( 27/8)s = 3.5s does that look right for rolling resistance and drag coefficient??


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## jwiger (Oct 18, 2014)

I'm not as well versed on drag coefficients. From my hackery it looks about right though. Unless you really wanted to go 90 mph you could gear it down a bit more and get some more wheel thrust. You might be getting traction limited though. 

I really don't like the idea of chain drive on something this powerful though. Chain slop and backlash will be very fatiguing to you and the drivetrain. Heaven help you if you try regen braking and break it. A toothed belt might be a much better option, I would have stuck with a proper transmission though.


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## jacksdad (Apr 13, 2015)

Hold on not sure your torque calculation is correct your 6th gear is a ratio of 7:1 (20/13)x(60/13) so shouldn't the torque at the wheel be 7x250 =1750 N or are you using an efficiency factor ??


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## jwiger (Oct 18, 2014)

Yes, I had to go back through my tool. It is calculating a 15% drivetrain loss. You should see less loss than that. However I was using the averaged torque between 0 rpm and the knee as well, which does show a slightly lower number.


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## jacksdad (Apr 13, 2015)

Umm well the breaking force for a standard 530 chain is 27kN the torque on the final drive sprocket is 20/13 x 250 Nm = 384Nm with radius 0.05m giving force to chain of 384x20 = 7kN so factor of 4x also there are plenty of bike engined chain driven cars using hyabusa and similar engines with similar power and torque values also I think the electric motor is supposed to be gentler on the chain according to my electric motor bike engineers, it will be lighter and cheaper than the big bmw differential I supect and allow more ratio options. It might be good to put a bit of steel between me and the chain though I guess some kind of guard


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## jwiger (Oct 18, 2014)

jacksdad said:


> It might be good to put a bit of steel between me and the chain though I guess some kind of guard


Please guard the whole thing, I would hate to be following you and have a broken chain fly through my windshield.


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## jacksdad (Apr 13, 2015)

I'm guessing there is some regulation on this but Its not gonna break.


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## jacksdad (Apr 13, 2015)

Also I'm not gonna bring it over the sea to Texas


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## ken will (Dec 19, 2009)

jwiger said:


> I really don't like the idea of chain drive on something this powerful though.


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## tylerwatts (Feb 9, 2012)

Jon, can you share a link to the Sonic EV thread please?

Can I recommend if you are sticking with a 2 stage reduction save your money and use the motors you have? You're getting into the realms of super super car performance or F1 and unless you have the reflexes of Lewis Hamilton you will struggle to enjoy the insanity. But I might be mistaken on the sanity bit...

Also, please avoid using such a small drive sprocket. It will struggle to withstand the enormous torque and either break, skip or wear out rapidly.


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## jacksdad (Apr 13, 2015)

hi the link is here : 

http://mevowners.proboards.com/thread/5290/australia-ev-sonic

I have chosen the 13T sprocket as my minimum on advice from the electric bike and differential chain drive engineers who tell me they think it will be ok but wouldn't let me go lower, what I like about the two stage reduction iusing the jack shaft is that it is flexible and will be relatively easy to swap gears out It may well be wise to choose to start with a 4:1 or 5:1 ratio get used the setup check the chassis can take it and then slowly build up the ratio, We could start with something like 15/16 and then 15/60 giving 4.3 which would give respectable 6s ish 0-60 times get used to the setup and then start reducing sprocket sizes

However it is probably still a long way off if you check out our build on the above forum we have been at it already for a few years, we only have a few hours on a Sunday morning we get easily distracted into side projects so we may never get it on the road !!

If you interested and in the Oxford area sometime let me know and I could show you what we've been up to over a brew.

All the best

Jon


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## Yabert (Feb 7, 2010)

Ken, I saw your pictures and I've started bleeding from the eyes 


Seriously, a chain is really noisy and this noise it's often frustrating on an electric vehicle.
Personally, I think a modified gearbox should be the perfect fit for this. Maybe a IB5 gearbox with the unnecessary gears remove to remove weight and rotational mass.


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## jacksdad (Apr 13, 2015)

Oh no not more options just when I was finally making my mind up !! I have an ib5 gearbox on a shelf in my garage, I did consider this from the outset with a lower power (cheaper) motor bolted onto the gearbox and keeping the gears in the end I decided against it because :

I wanted a direct drive and no gearing so why have a gearbox with all that rotational inertia stealing my power.

Once I'd decided to go big motor there seemed no point.

However modifying the gearbox to give a fixed ratio is interesting however certainly the 35x2 doesn't fit and sticks out the side of the engine bay the best option would be a lower power motor and keep 2 gears sometime like 8:1 and 5:1 or something do you know what the option are ??

I have driven a rocket a few times and with the open plan chassis and cockpit the stiff suspension and all the diy panels rattling and the wind noises I'm not sure you would notice chain noise much and if you did it would it might kind of fit with the general Heath Robinson ambience


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## jacksdad (Apr 13, 2015)

What I did wonder was getting chaife or someone to make me a bespoke gearboxe that I could bolt to the front of the motor that had a 2 gear option with a solenoid changer of some kind 8:1 and 4:1, but I think this is for future developments


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## EVsonic (Aug 14, 2014)

Hi Jon

Good to see you are chasing your idea and the AC35 twin here is a link to another idea

http://www.evwest.com/catalog/produ...ucts_id=285&osCsid=g1j5ive3781ksr5h53hdee8a91

It's $$$

But ev west would have an adapter plate for it. Makes it plug and play.

As far as performance goes there will always be people that knock it he'll would of knocked myself. If I hadn't seen 3.2 on my phone.

Sometimes you just have to do it.

Cheers Conrad


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## jacksdad (Apr 13, 2015)

Hi Conrad

Moving ahead slowly is that gearbox fixed at 8:1 gonna have slow top speed I would have thought what do you think of my interchangeable sprocket idea ?


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## EVsonic (Aug 14, 2014)

Yes I am sure you can change down to 6:1 your sockets idea looks OK I would worry about chain lash and using regen but they do it on motor bikes don't they.

Cheers


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## Speeder (Oct 25, 2013)

Hi Jon 

Have you seen these?










Quaife Universal Axle Unit - No Reverse

Could be what you're looking for.

I've been through all the available options and come to the conclusion that if the motor is in the 6k revs range, the simplest solution is simply to buy a regular IRS differential from BMW or Ford or whoever at approx 3-4:1 and drive the motor directly into the nose. Simple, compact, relatively light and if you pick the right one, can be easily fitted with an LSD if so required.


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## BWA (Mar 14, 2015)

Nice Quaife unit, looks a bit Spendy......


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## jwiger (Oct 18, 2014)

Speeder said:


> ...the simplest solution is simply to buy a regular IRS differential from BMW or Ford or whoever at approx 3-4:1 and drive the motor directly into the nose. Simple, compact, relatively light and if you pick the right one, can be easily fitted with an LSD if so required.


I agree with this, and would recommend the Ford 8.8 based IRS. You can find center sections from either the SN-95 platform (94-04 Mustang Cobras) or a slightly differently mounted one in the MN-12 platform (Late '80s to mid '90s Thunderbirds). The 8.8 is starting to take some of the performance market from the old 9". So there are thousands of options out there for it. 

A more expensive, yet sexy option would be a "quick change" based system. 

http://www.1speedway.com/irs_quickchange.htm


-just say'n


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## jacksdad (Apr 13, 2015)

have been designing the motor unit to fit in the back of the rocket on solidworks going to use a series of water cut alloy plates sandwiched around the motor with jack shaft on the end see pictures :



















any comments welcome


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## tylerwatts (Feb 9, 2012)

That looks impressive. Is the layout designed to use standard Ford drive shafts? And what diff? Any thoughts about using a belt drive? It might struggle to get the ratio you want in one stage I guess. I was thinking of a Harley primary drive setup but with bigger secondary wheel. My biggest concern is chain slap and noise ruining the sound of the electric car silence. Maybe you can use a chain tensioner to dampen the noise. If you have a wheel on the outside above and below the chain runs linked to each other with strips of plate and an arm again in strip going to the centre between the two wheels and forward bolted near the drive sprocket. The strip pivoting from near the drive sprocket must pivot in the middle of the strips linking the two wheels. This will mean that the tensioner can move with the pull of the chain in acceleration and deceleration but stops the chain rattling or becoming loose on the sprocket. It also allows you to wrap the sprocket a bit more. 
PS: I'd use sprockets on bearings for the tensioner wheels but bear in mind it requires more accurate alignment of the tensioner or some movement. Perhaps the forward pivot of the tensioner near the drive sprocket can be a rose joint to allow full movement of the tensioner to settle into the optimum position. The diff or motor position adjustment is still required to set up the correct tension as the tensioner should be fixed in position. 

Hope that makes sense. Shout if not.


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## jacksdad (Apr 13, 2015)

Yep it will use the standard ford focus driveshaft attached to a chain drive quaife LSD mounted to concentric bearing holders on the front. This is all being made by westgarage engineering who specilaise in chain drive cars like the furore. The enclosed unit on the end of the motor holds the jack shaft at the back once again on concentric holders (not shown) bolted to the aluminium plates . We have chosen a 15T sprocket on the motor to a 19T on the jackshaft then 17T to 55T on the differential giving a modest 4.09:1 ratio and with relatively low chain velocities should give a higher top speed but less acceleration the plan is to check this all works etc then start slowly changing sprockets to increase ratio and see what acceleration we can get.

The westgarage engineer who has a lot of experience with chain drives seems to think it should'nt be too noisy but i guess we won't know till we try normally for him any chain noise is drowned out by the motobike engine at 8000+ revs !! we are going to use the highest spec motorcycle chains used with hyabusa and the like these have O ring built in lubrication and are used to these kind of torques and KW so should be ok the distances between sprockets are designed to reduce sprocket tooth a chain wear by only matching a tooth to a link v infrequently, we dont plan to use tensioners at the moment but i guess we can add these if necessary.

The plan for making this as motor unit was that it will be easy to lift the whole unit out of the rear of the car to change sprockets etc the supports will clamp round the existing chassis members so i'm leaving the original engine mounts if it all goes pearshaped and i could put a ford blacktop in if nec.

Will keep you all posted as we get on looking to start building the unit in the next month or two just getting the plates water cut now and the clamps machined


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## jacksdad (Apr 13, 2015)

these are the pieces westgarage have made for us so far may make it easier to see what we are doing : differential with sprocket and quaife lsd and eccentric bearing holders for focus driveshaft the other bearing holder for bearing on the longer ford driveshaft the sprocket for the motor and the rear jackshaft with sprockets and i think adjusters for the eccentric mounts


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## tylerwatts (Feb 9, 2012)

Hi jacksdad 
May I suggest larger primary sprockets on the motor to jackshaft and larger front from jackshaft to diff to quieten the chain and reduce wear. Keep to standard sprockets of course.


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## jacksdad (Apr 13, 2015)

actually I was wrong withe my quoted sprocket sizes (we have been changing these frequently) the current plan as above is 17T to 21T and 17T to 55T, the minimum possible sprocket size on the motor was 13T and the difference between 13t and 17T in terms of non roundness and noise is large there has been a lot of debate in setting these and Although I have no experience of chain drives I'm taking advice from westgarage and the electric bike engineers who seem to think these sizes are an ok starting point as nobody has done this in a rocket before there is no precedent. so my plan is to try these sizes out and see what the noise and drive is like then adapt as necessary by having the jack shaft we had lots of combinations available just going to suck it and see I think


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## jacksdad (Apr 13, 2015)

playing with solidworks rendering hopefully getting the parts to make it and install in car soon


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## jacksdad (Apr 13, 2015)

first look at cradle to fit HPEVS AC35x2 with 2 stage chain drive and jack shaft holding focus IB5 geometry chain drive quaife differential and driveshaft, picking up the parts this weekend :


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## Johnny5 (Aug 11, 2015)

Impressive work, I am looking forward to see more.


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## winzeracer (Apr 3, 2012)

Looking good. Subscribed!


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## jacksdad (Apr 13, 2015)

Hi all i'm looking for some help I have obtained my nice hpevs ac35x2 motor but the drive plate is different from the one i was using on the hpevs website to build my cradle I was expecting this :



but got this:


this means as i dont have the 4" register my plates are 1/4 " too close and if i redrill the plate to take the 7.25" BC 1/2" i get a nasty overlapp of countersinks :



i could make up a collar something like this :



to help support the motor face and spread the load from the 1/2 inch bolts to the collar bolts.

or i could get a new cradle plate made up.

what do people think

am i wrrying too much about hole proximity

if not will the collar fix it

if i get a new plate do i need a collar or a machined recess in the plate

thanks for your input

i don't really want to pack it all back to the usa, was my fault didn't realise there where different drive plate options


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## jwiger (Oct 18, 2014)

It seems to me the simplest option is to rotate the motor 45 degress. Or contact the guys at HPEVS and ask them if you can swap the end plate out for one with a 4" register.


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## jacksdad (Apr 13, 2015)

Is it easy to replace the end face, does it require special tools etc ??


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## jwiger (Oct 18, 2014)

The general construction is not too different from any other large frame motor. There are four very long bolts that clamp the end plates on to the main housing. You must be able to tear it down to service the bearings. I've never taken an HPEVs motor apart but these guys have:

https://www.instagram.com/p/7wW1KjAXJh/?taken-by=evwestdotcom


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## jacksdad (Apr 13, 2015)

Thanks Jwiger 

so HPEVS tell me it should be possible to undo the 4 long bolts and rotate the front bell 45 degrees as there are holes 45 degrees round, i can see that when i have undone the long bolt bashed the front plate round with a rubber mallet its going to be quite hard to line it up with the hole at the other end of the motor, is there a trick to this ??


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## jwiger (Oct 18, 2014)

You're asking questions beyond my experience level now. If there really are holes every 45 degrees then I would probably mark the main case inline with two marks 90 degrees from each other, place a mark on the endplate in-line with one of the two case marks, then turn it to split the difference. That's just me brain storming. 

Emailing one of the shops that has been into these motors would probably give you more insight.


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## jacksdad (Apr 13, 2015)

Thanks i'll try and gather some insights and probably have a go at this will let everyone know how it goes. it will really help as i can then use the rear plate as it is and the front bolts will fit better with the chain and i can then use normal rather than countersunk bolts.


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## ken will (Dec 19, 2009)

Can you rotate the motor 45 degrees, so that the new holes are 1/2 way between the old holes?


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## jacksdad (Apr 13, 2015)

So finally got around to swapping the front faces of the hpevs motor (hpevs kindly shipped out the face i needed to fit my motor cradle) turned out to be a peice of cake, ill post some pictures just in case someone else needs to do this at some point



undo the long bolts 3/8 socket



tap off the front face with rubber mallet gently turning the face between each tap to stop it getting wedged



reveals front bearing on rotor shaft and nicely machined front fan







old front face notice 3 central bolts are not attached to anything which is good because my replacement front face doesn't have these i think these are for a bearing holder clip which is at the other end for this motor.





spring clip sits between the bearing and the front face bearing surface



transferred to new front face


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## jacksdad (Apr 13, 2015)

new face offered up v nice tight interference fit in the bearing holder .




notice 5mm gap between motor case and front face once bearing few mm engaged 



this allows you to line up long bolt into hole in front face:




and set front face to the correct position :



and tighten up and bobs your uncle.


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## jacksdad (Apr 13, 2015)

Tried first fit of motor into cradle and jack shaft unit :

















All fits perfectly - with thanks to Douglas at westgarage engineering for making up this unit so well all holes and plates lined up perfectly


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## jwiger (Oct 18, 2014)

I'm so happy the face plate swap worked so smoothly! I love how simple these motors are. 

I'm a little concerned with the sensor wires passing though that notch on the plate though. I would recommend increasing the radius of the fillet around the wires or filling the notch/wire gap with silicone to stabilize/insulate it.


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## jacksdad (Apr 13, 2015)

Yep Thanks I agree it's just a first fit, I'll planning to fillet the notch a bit more and put the clip back on to the plate just above that should reduce movement and wrap some extra self amalgamssing tape round the cable into the notch and then clip it carefully up to the controllers should be ok hopefully


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## Furylectric (Jan 24, 2016)

Hi what are you choosing for battery system


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## jacksdad (Apr 13, 2015)

Well I'm not sure we are still working on this probably 45 x 100Ah Calb batteries


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## jacksdad (Apr 13, 2015)

Trying to fit them in is the struggle


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## jacksdad (Apr 13, 2015)

So today was first fit of motor unit into engine bay after a lot of faffing about we finally got an alignment with the drive shaft about 2cm above the hubs with the lower wishbones level and about 2 cm behind the hubs this is adjustable to some extent by the eccentric adjusters on the differential and jack shaft.

















Moving the motor unit forward a little has given us a bit more battery room behind the seats:





We've marked the plates to cut with our brand new metal cutting circular saw - bit of a beast , the aim is to cut the two inner plates 6mm short of the top of the aluminium beams to allow for a 6mm aluminium shelf to go across between the beams for the motor controllers and various other high voltage contactors fusing and battery chargers.

Also need a small spacer between the NS beam and one of the plates about 4mm

aiming for this:


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## Furylectric (Jan 24, 2016)

very nice !


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## jacksdad (Apr 13, 2015)

I'm interested in thoughts about my planned battery positions using 45 calb 100Ah prismatics in aluminium frames 33 behind the seats and 12 in the front the heavier back frame bolted to the chassis on chassis clamps and the front frame bolted to the chassis with rivenuts 

any input re distribution potential problems from experts out there most appreciated


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## tylerwatts (Feb 9, 2012)

I'd try put a few more up front

what configuration are they going in? Why those cells? Have you bought them yet? I'd strongly recommend volt or leaf modules or even if you can, Mitsubishi i-MIEV cells. The ultimate would be Tesla modules as you could fit double the capacity behind the seats due yo their energy density. 7 tesla modules would be 156v and 35kwh. And boxed possibly 200kg if done well. But similar price to CALBs. I'd lean towards volt or leaf modules personally.

Tyler


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## EVsonic (Aug 14, 2014)

tylerwatts said:


> I'd try put a few more up front
> 
> what configuration are they going in? Why those cells? Have you bought them yet? I'd strongly recommend volt or leaf modules or even if you can, Mitsubishi i-MIEV cells. The ultimate would be Tesla modules as you could fit double the capacity behind the seats due yo their energy density. 7 tesla modules would be 156v and 35kwh. And boxed possibly 200kg if done well. But similar price to CALBs. I'd lean towards volt or leaf modules personally.
> 
> Tyler


How do you get 156volts out of Telsa packs?I thought they were 57volts each this will blow the curtis controllers. The other thing is Jon needs to draw 1000 Amps I dont think 7 packs will give that.
Jon I am thinking about buying 4000 x 18650 samsung 3450mAh cells at $2.99 USD you would need 3300 cells approx for a weight of 125KG you would need a spot welder but they would give yo 35KwH plus.

Cheers Kiwi


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## jacksdad (Apr 13, 2015)

Hi Kiwi

Whilst on the one hand I love the idea of the flexibility of making up large battery packs we really don't have the time or expertise to do this I'm still thinking about your headway idea and making floor panel packs, however it's the ease of fabricating the cases for the prismatic cells that appeals to me, I'm going to keep this car for ever I think and it'll be fun to change battery packs and configurations every 5 years or so and may leave this for then, if I'm going to go prismatic do you think the CALB's are the best option ??


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## EVsonic (Aug 14, 2014)

jacksdad said:


> Hi Kiwi
> 
> Whilst on the one hand I love the idea of the flexibility of making up large battery packs we really don't have the time or expertise to do this I'm still thinking about your headway idea and making floor panel packs, however it's the ease of fabricating the cases for the prismatic cells that appeals to me, I'm going to keep this car for ever I think and it'll be fun to change battery packs and configurations every 5 years or so and may leave this for then, if I'm going to go prismatic do you think the CALB's are the best option ??


Hi Jon

If you are keen on headways please do them you can buy holders for them and mount them in you aluminum boxs I have use them in my Ebikes and they will give you an honest 9.3Ah before the BMS kick out. Like the prismatic cells they will suffer voltage sag below 10 deg temperature. 
Bare in mind both cells will give you 150000 to 200000 kms so I can't see you doing that in your rocket.
Please do it once and do it right for yourself. 

The Chinese aircraft batteries are good bang for your back but they wont give your motor enough juice to get the true performance from your rocket.

Cheers Kiwi


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## Yabert (Feb 7, 2010)

jacksdad said:


> Whilst on the one hand I love the idea of the flexibility of making up large battery packs we really don't have the time or expertise to do this I'm still thinking about your headway idea...


Please forget this idea of using headway cell in 2016...

I used 384 headway cells in my first battery pack (2010). 42 000 km later I've swapped for chevy Volt battery.
Now I know the down side of Headway: Complexity of building (thousand parts), high price, poor power capability, poor reliability, etc.

Don't hesitate and go with used chevy Volt or Nissan Leaf battery... or new Calb cells for double the price.


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## EVsonic (Aug 14, 2014)

I agree Leaf and Volt packs are better but Jon problem is he has to fit them in a car already built. The Headways are old technology but they are cheap down here.

The other option is the CALB CAM072 they are 1.9 Kg and off memory they give 584 Amps for 8-10 seconds only drama is you will need 2 packs of 45 but they are seriously small and great power density.

Cheers Kiwi


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## jacksdad (Apr 13, 2015)

Yep finally decided to go for the 73ah CALB cam batteries 90 cells giving 146 ah so 1100 amps for 10 seconds should be enough for the motor and and a bit smaller than the 100ah was looking at although almost twice the ££ still gonna keep this car for ever. 

Fits in neater:


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## EVsonic (Aug 14, 2014)

Looks the goods Jon

Are you running chiller plates on the back of your controllers?


Cheers Kiwi


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## jacksdad (Apr 13, 2015)

Well the base of the controllers is going to be clamped to a big sheet of alloy but I guess it would be easy to include a chiller do you think it will be necessary


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## tylerwatts (Feb 9, 2012)

Jon

I'd say start without chilkers and just allow for the space to sandwich them between the controllers and plate in future. I think you'd only need them on a track day where you are accelerating and regen-ing alot. Could save you some cost up front as long as you plan for the possibility of needing the cooling and how to fit it in.


Tyler


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## jacksdad (Apr 13, 2015)

worked on final fitting motor unit and chain drive:


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## jacksdad (Apr 13, 2015)




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## jacksdad (Apr 13, 2015)

finally all properly fitted in the engine bay, just need some batteries now!


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## Moltenmetal (Mar 20, 2014)

This is a thing of beauty...you guys are doing very nice work!


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## jacksdad (Apr 13, 2015)

Thank you very much Moltenmetal kind words 

I have a question for ev experts how much do I need to protect the motor from the weather does it need to be enclosed, my plan at the moment is to put polycarbonate cover over everything and have the main contactors and fuses in enclosures but the motor otherwise will be exposed underneath I guess water could splash up, I guess I need to avoid floods or fords !!


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## Moltenmetal (Mar 20, 2014)

Not sure how those dual motors are vented, but presume that one end sucks and the other blows. Aside from keeping the sucking end away from water and your motor leads finger safe, just general splash proofing is probably all you need. I put a belly pan at the front of my Spitfire, mostly to protect the bottom of my batteries, but it also keeps splashes away from the front (sucking) end of my single AC50.


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## Furylectric (Jan 24, 2016)

awesome job


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## Sterling2015 (Jun 24, 2015)

Very inspiring! - AC 35 x2 144v has been my choice for a year now, best bang for the buck I think. 

I went the lazy way compared to your project. Type 1 VW Bug, Rancho street pro transaxle, Type 1 to Porsche 930 CV conversion, carbon Kevlar floor pans with room for battery compartments. Modern racing front and rear suspension mods. (supposed to handle like a new Porsche, we'll see. )








Just finished the chassis, took over a year, now saving for AC 35x2 144v kit. 

Then will be saving for batteries !! (Batteries Not Included !!!!!)

Body is Kelmark GT for standard Beetle (Dino 246 GT replica)

Respectfully, thanks for the inspiration.........


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## jacksdad (Apr 13, 2015)

sterling that looks great nice low COG I'm guessing what your final weight going to be do you think?


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## Sterling2015 (Jun 24, 2015)

jacksdad said:


> sterling that looks great nice low COG I'm guessing what your final weight going to be do you think?


Chassis with brakes and wheels - Estimating 800 lbs (363 kg) 400 lbs Front + 400 lbs rear. ( difference of 30 lbs on 2 corners, so rounding up to 400 Front and rear.)
(digital bathroom scales under the wheels, not sure how accurate)

Type 1 IRS transaxle with 930 CVs - 110 lbs (50 kg)

2x HPEVS Curtis 1239-8501 144V 500 AMP Controller 24 lbs

Curtis 1239-8501 HPEVS Dual AC-35 Brushless Motor Kit - 144 Volt 150 lbs (68 kg)

(Example battery) Enerdel MP320-049 24 kWh Battery Pack Built for HPEVS 144V System - 400 lbs (181 kg)
Rough estimate *without *body, seats, interior, wiring, lights etc *1500 lbs. (680 kg)
*
The kemark GT body is light, will try to weigh it this weekend.

What's your estimate for MEV weight? Seems the P:W ratio is going to be awesome.


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## jacksdad (Apr 13, 2015)

So I'm hoping for about 550 600kg I have a ratio of 3:1 with my current sprockets which is set for speed and less strain on drive sprocket and chain speed but for optimum acceleration once everything is working I can increase my ratio to 5:1 6:1 which should give startling acceleration but really strains the chains and sprockets


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## jacksdad (Apr 13, 2015)

battery cases made up big one behind seat and 2 under bonnet with CALB batteries:







need to offer up to chassis and fabricate supports and weld to boxes then powder coat


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## jacksdad (Apr 13, 2015)

trying to fit these in the car now first behind the seats :





planning on support plates to chassis clamps at the back and a big angle beam across the front - let us know if you think these are strong enough:



in the front 2 boxes under the bonnet : either side of steering rack







probably will clamp the boxes to the steering rack and bolt to the floor 

i guess need to protect the front box for stones and stuff from road 

how much do people worry about crumple zones and battery boxes, its not part of the regs i need to adhere too but do people think is a consideration ??


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## Sterling2015 (Jun 24, 2015)

Batteries included now, great to see! What kWh is your battery pack?

I was concerned about my vw beetle steering shaft, the previous owner removed the collapsible part leaving a straight piece of steel rod with no give.

I found a used original steering column with the hopefully safer collapsible part intact that I'll use instead.

Was going to try the now vintage Tri-Hawk reverse trike kit with Honda motorcycle engine and rear wheel with Karman Ghia front suspension.

Tri-Hawk was designed to have a substantial foam and fiberglass nose section for crush protection.

I'll have to do something similar for battery weight distribution and thinking of adding some front protection. Excellent example, thanks.


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## jacksdad (Apr 13, 2015)

So i have 44 x 2p 72ah calb batteries so 144v and 144 ah so 20.7 KWh

jack fixed the accelerator cable into an enclosure to stop any water ingress and connected to accelerator pedal:









I was thinking about safety and the accelerator cable and what would happen if the cable stuck on i was thinking of running the N/C pedal interlock cable on the accelerator cable in series with a double pole N/C emergency button on the tunnel that would also be in series on the other pole with the KS1 so if the throttle stuck i could wack this and it would cut the thottle and KS1 - does this seem like a good idea ??


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

Hi Jacksdad

About a sticking throttle
Do you anticipate using power and brakes at the same time?

If not simply use a microswitch on your brake pedal to short out your throttle pot - a brake light switch would be perfect

This will automatically set your current to zero any time you apply the brakes


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## jacksdad (Apr 13, 2015)

Hi Duncan

Thanks for your help, i think the curtis controllers do this anyway as i plan to have a brake pot on the brake hydraulics and i'm pretty sure the controllers prioritise braking over power if they receive both a braking input and a throttle input, so my emergency switch is a backup to this in that it would trigger the pedal interlock. I am now thinking of also passing the feed to both main contactors through this switch and an inertia switch so that if i press it the pedal interlock is triggered and both contactors are switched off but the 12 supply to the controllers through KSi is maintained.

Let me know what you think.

I don't have a solution for welded contactors which i guess might happen if they are switched off at full current i guess the fuses (400A on each controller) and 800 amp on the main battery circuit will blow but not sure how long this would take ??


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

Hi Jacksdad
I had forgotten that you were AC!
OK
Ignore the controller fails full on - can't happen with AC!
So IMHO don't mess about switching your contactors on and off - all you will get is tears!

I would still use the brake switch to zero the throttle pot - separately from the input to the controller
This assumes a resistive throttle - no idea about a hall effect one!

With an AC system you can't get the failed controller nightmare - if it fails the motor stops

So the only thing you can get is a good old fashioned stuck throttle - use at least two springs!
And I would use the brake overide I mentioned


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## jacksdad (Apr 13, 2015)

Thanks duncan I wondered about AC motors not running unless they rev=cieve the pwm they are expecting so i guess this is reasuring, my brake pedal switch is a digital switch for a microcontroller that then switches on the brake light i could have a second switch on the brake pedal or a separate push switch. If i have an inertia switch waht should i connect this to ? the ignition feed to the controllers ?


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

Hi
I am not at all sure an inertia switch is a good thing in a track car!

I would (and have on the Device) add a second brake light switch to the brake pedal to zero the throttle input 

be careful about adjusting it - mine was too close and went to zero throttle in the middle of a junction
Right in front of a cop car!
The police pushed me off the junction and out of the way but embarrassing!!


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## jacksdad (Apr 13, 2015)

Its not a track car, although it looks like one and hopefully will go like one!

i spoke to HPEVS (they are so helpful and prompt) they suggested a switch for the interloc rather than zeroing the throttle i guess i could use a double pole switch that does both, i'm thinking that i might have it as a separate switch rather than on the brake pedal as if there was a minor fault with the throttle not completely switching off i may not notice if it is cancelled by pressing the brake.

In terms of inertia switch their recommendation was to use a large double pole contactor on the main battery cables that is controlled from the intertia switch i guess from the ignition switch feed , i am struggling to find a big enough double pole contactor for this that could feasably cut potentially 1000+ amps 144v i guess i could use 2 x gigavac contactors like the ones that come with the controllers but is a bit of a cost, but i like the idea of the battery packs being isolated if im uncouncious in an upside down car umm will think on it, i cant seem to get these gigavac contactors in the UK so would need to order from the usa.

Otherwise they said it would be ok to fit the inertia switch to the 12v feed to the controllers that would switch power off to the motors but would leave everything live to this point.


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

Hi Jacksdad

You don't have the possible motor full on scenario
So what can happen?
Stuck throttle - we have talked about

Crash sticks throttle or breaks a cable
If a cable shorts it will blow your fuse 

I would suggest that you don't need contactors that can break 1000amps - just something that can break your 144v - and maybe 200 amps??

I can't think of a scenario where you would need to break 1000amps


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## Moltenmetal (Mar 20, 2014)

I had an inertial switch on the keyswitch interlock (KSI) ie. the control power to the controller, in series with a relay which prevents me from driving off when the charger is plugged in. I had to abandon it because the ride in the Spitfire is just too rough- it was false tripping regularly.

There is a microswitch on a Curtis potbox which detects closed throttle i.e. foot off the accelerator. On the single motor Curtis implementation by HPEVS the switch is installed between pin 25 (12V control power) and pin 9 (pedal interlock). That switch ensures that you are in fact asking the controller to apply a throttle signal, so if your throttle pot goes wonky you can just pop your foot off the throttle and the controller will stop output. The switch OPENS to indicate a closed throttle, i.e. it is safe against a broken wire.

Failing that, you turn off the keyswitch which shuts off the KSI ie. cutting power entirely to the controller.

I also have a "start" switch in the form of a latching relay which pulls in and stays pulled in when you turn the key switch to the "start" position. It's scary to have a car ready to accept throttle inputs any time the key switch is in the on position- it's best to have a 2nd start button or something like I've done.


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## jacksdad (Apr 13, 2015)

yep good points guys its all about trying to balance the risks i guess the highest is stuck throttle and the other is a controller fault that leaves motors on but that should be fixable by having a way to cut power to controllers. So certainly to start with this is what im planning:

- normally closed switch either on the brake pedal or separate in series with the throttle microswitch wires from pin 25 to pin 9. - this allows me to correct a throttle cable jam or dodgy pot. also putting a second spring on the throttle arm

- run the ksi line through a intertia switch and a second emergency stop switch so that the controllers can be switched off if necessary i don't know if you can get adjustable inertia switches or higher G switches as i guess my car is going to be a rough as a spitfire 

- i have an engine starter switch already which is just another input to the microcontroller so i can program what i like i was thinking soemthing like this:

- to set KSi live you have to have handbrake on and ignition to start and foot on brake and then press engine start for 5 seconds then KSi is live and a big green LED lights up to tell you that you are ready to go when pressing throttle pedal, then when the handbrake has been on for more than a minute the led flashes for 5 seconds and if you dont press engine start during this time the KSI is turned off this means if you get out of the car and forget to turn of the key then it will turn controllers off after a minute

i think ill start with this and go from there leave the extra contactors for now let me know if anyone thinks ive missed anything


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## jacksdad (Apr 13, 2015)

Did a few days work this work and moved forwards nicely we made up the high voltage box and started the monster 12v wiring for controllers 
:


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## jacksdad (Apr 13, 2015)

few more pictures brakes finished now wiring up controllers throttle box reverse switch and interfacing with the existing electrics:


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## jacksdad (Apr 13, 2015)




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## jacksdad (Apr 13, 2015)

Finished the HV enclosure any comments welcome:


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## jacksdad (Apr 13, 2015)

Hi all I would value some input into our idea. We are planning to fabricate a steel support (yellow in pictures) between the rear lower wishbone front chassis mounts as has been suggested is a good plan with high powered MEV rockets  to support the chassis mounts as they carry the majority of the thrust from the wheels with a largish force pushing the mount in on acceleration and pulling out on braking , and also to provide some lower lateral support for the motor unit. I'm not sure how much lateral motion we will get from the unit but seem a good idea, the problem is if you draw a line between both mounts the chain drive unit is in the way so we though about bolting the support to this to both support the motor unit and bolster the mounts let us know your thoughts. In particular when mounting motor units onto the chassis can the be attached solidly or is some kind of busk useful i have a 4mm peice of sheet polyurethane between the support beams and my chassis clamps similar to the plastic used in the suspension bushes - what do people think of this and is some lower triangulation like this necessary for the unit ??


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## jwiger (Oct 18, 2014)

Looks pretty good to me. I would add some spacer(s) between the interior walls of the chain drive unit, to prevent pinching of those, and add some sore of isolating material between the steel and the aluminum. Just to reduce stress-points if there is any flexing. 

Sent from my STV100-1 using Tapatalk


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

Not to be too picky but have those guys never heard of triangles??

I was always taught to use triangles everywhere on a chassis - the exception being where you are going to weld in a floor as the sheet metal does the job of the triangle


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## jwiger (Oct 18, 2014)

Duncan said:


> Not to be too picky but have those guys never heard of triangles?


I suppose he could make V shapes to the yellow bars. The downside of the chain drive housing makes it kind of hard to go from the suspension point to the frame.


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## jacksdad (Apr 13, 2015)

so i think the purpose of the bar between the chassis mounts is to protect the mount itself from bending or pulling off from the weld not to strengthen the chassis which is designed strong enough and its a neat solution as with acceleration both mounts will want to push in compressing the bar and on braking will pull the bar in tension the chassis is designed for an ICE (old ford zetec) which allows a bar across, but with me the unit is in the way so i wondered about this solution that would have the same affect as the original tie bar and maybe support the unit a bit from lateral movement, to be fair it is really solid and even with a crow bar i an only move it a mm or so and im not sure there is going to be any lateral force on the motor unit as the motor when it turns will not be able to apply any force in this direction through a torque effect in the driveshafts as they can slide within the CV joints but i guess it might vibrate a bit 

A better way to fix the motor unit is probably with a bracket or even a location lug into the chassis member at the front end of the unit as it passes over the chassis maybe a little rubber or polyurethane plug that just sits snugly in a hole in the chassis ??


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## Karter2 (Nov 17, 2011)

The bar looks like a fiddly solution.
They should at least have made those mounting lugs thicker and shaped to the full width of the chassis tube.
But to do that now means welding and messing with the paint etc, so maybe your add on bar is the compromise to go with if you seriously think there may be an issue.


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## jacksdad (Apr 13, 2015)

Yep would deffo would have been better to have been stronger from the start to be fair it was designed for a 120/130 BHP zetec and problems have only been noticed when 200+ BHP units are used


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## Karter2 (Nov 17, 2011)

Actually, as Duncan suggested, you could install additional bracing from the front locating "tab" on each mounting point diagonally to the chassis cross rail,
It should be welded in , but could be a bolt on addition using the suspension mounting bolt and a bracket onto the cross rail.
Hindsight is great, but they should have put those mounting tabs on the side of the chassis rail originally !


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## jacksdad (Apr 13, 2015)

Thanks guys helpful as always I'll keep you posted on what I do I think some kind of bracket/mount on the cross chassis member that will clamp onto the motor unit and also take the end of diagonal braces for the suspension mounts is what I'm thinking now


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## jacksdad (Apr 13, 2015)

can someone who has used a curtis 1239E tell me what fuse they used for the KSI 12v supply i'm planning on 20amp then 10 amp for each controller does that seem reasonable i can then use a load of 10 amp rated multi-cable i have

also the tachometer signal, i'm using a digital smiths new type tacho that is designed to take the tacho output from an ECU and is programable for 1 to 12 cylinders so im assuming i set it for 1 cylinder does anyone know what the standard tacho out on pin 2 is like and whether similar to ECU output and whether i will need the pullup ??


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## jacksdad (Apr 13, 2015)

Working v hard to get it ready to ship to engineers for early december

Fitted tacho and speedo into bonnet with emergency stop and throttle overide big red buttons a control box and waterproof multi pin connector to allow easy bonnet removal

This is the final piece of wiring for the controllers and so can do the final fit of all controller 12v control wiring now


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## jacksdad (Apr 13, 2015)

My job this weekend was to work towards fitting the battery cases - first of all the large rear case the plan is to bolt it at the back to the front surface of the chassis clamp so i took the lower part of the clamp off and drilled a 13mm hole to take an d then fit a 12mm helicoil then lined up the case and drilled 12mm hole and bolted the case to the chassis mount:














apparently 30% stronger than tapping the aluminium 12mm and less likely to cross thread 

we will put bolts into the top half of the chassis mount but need to wait till we take the motor off next











then put countersunk bolts the the lower front edge to keep a flat surface on the inside but give something to bolt the case to the 50mm box section beam running across the chassis 



The the front cases

The rearof the larger case is bolted to the chassis member at the front they neatly clamp round the steering rack with a couple of 5mm polyurethane gaskets and some rubber sheet to make a tight fit:


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## jacksdad (Apr 13, 2015)

then indoors to fit the 1mm delrin liners and then the 5mm threaded rod that threads through the batteries holding them firm in the case


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## In2GoInd (Oct 25, 2016)

Looking good. Getting close!!


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## jacksdad (Apr 13, 2015)

Finally got batteries fitted in the car fitted, rear case with strong aluminium box section to chassis clamps, just cables and controllers and BMS now.


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## jacksdad (Apr 13, 2015)

slightly off on a tangent today, i have a nice old fashoined smiths fuel guage designed for old british sports cars that i wanted to use as a SOC meter, the BMS (elektromotus) apparently outputs 5v pwm as a SOC level designed to run a guage however the smiths guage (two wire) is supposed to work with a 10v regulator in series with the petrol tank float variable resistor so i thought i would simulate the 5v PWM using an arduino and drive the guage with PWM using a NPN darlington and vary the driving voltage and see if i could get something that worked

this was my circuit:



this was the code:

int TIP120pin = 3; //pin3 = pwm output pin 
int potentiometerwiperpin=0;
float potentiometervalue=0;
float packpercentage = 10;
int pwmpackpercentage= (packpercentage*255)/100;

void setup()


{
Serial.begin(9600); 
pinMode(TIP120pin, OUTPUT); // Set pin for output to control TIP120 Base pin

}

void loop()
{
potentiometervalue = float(analogRead(potentiometerwiperpin));
packpercentage=(potentiometervalue*100)/1023;
pwmpackpercentage= int((packpercentage*255)/100);
Serial.print("PV= "); 
Serial.print(potentiometervalue); 
Serial.print("\t"); 

Serial.print("Pack%= "); 
Serial.print(packpercentage);
Serial.print("\t"); 

Serial.print("PWM sent=");
Serial.print(pwmpackpercentage); 
Serial.println("");

analogWrite(TIP120pin, pwmpackpercentage); // By changing values from 0 to 255 you can set guage value
}

I used an adjustable DROK voltage regulator to adjust the voltage that supplies the guage that is modulated with the pwm from the arduino and with some fiddling about found that 7.5V drives the guage nicely, its not perfectly linear but i settled for a little underreading at full tank and more accuracy from 50% to 0% (5% tank reads zero on guage)


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## jacksdad (Apr 13, 2015)

So if anyone else wants to run smiths guages form PWM then it looks like 7.5V regulated will work reasonably well certainly for fuel gauge


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## gte718p (Jul 30, 2009)

The fuel gauge looks awesome. I've always though about it, but never executed it. Seem like it you could adapt a lot of traditional gauges to EV purposes for a classic look.


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## jacksdad (Apr 13, 2015)

final fitting of motor and controllers all done its ready to go to engineers for controller and bms setup then should have a spinning motor


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## jacksdad (Apr 13, 2015)




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## jacksdad (Apr 13, 2015)




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## jacksdad (Apr 13, 2015)

Few last pictures of as far as we have got - finally looks like something that will drive - before removing seats before taking up north hopefully when we get back we can fit driveshafts and try driving it - up the drive at least


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## Moltenmetal (Mar 20, 2014)

That is a thing of beauty- you should be very proud of your workmanship!


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## Yabert (Feb 7, 2010)

Moltenmetal said:


> That is a thing of beauty- you should be very proud of your workmanship!


+1
Beautiful!


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## jacksdad (Apr 13, 2015)

I think i have attached the schematics for all my electrics if anyone is interested


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## jacksdad (Apr 13, 2015)

So trying out some colours for the motor unit and plastic controller colour:

Let me know what you think looks better:



red



black



blue


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## Sterling2015 (Jun 24, 2015)

All looks awesome, given a choice, I vote black for contrast.
Congratulations!


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## Yabert (Feb 7, 2010)

Sterling2015 said:


> All looks awesome, given a choice, I vote black for contrast.
> Congratulations!


+1
Can't wait to see this little beast moving.


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## jacksdad (Apr 13, 2015)

Exciting adventure today taking the car to the engineers to set up bms and controllers 

Picked up a transporter, this was fine although it had seen a long life, first of all we had to fix the jammed winch:



then loading up and off















Hopefully get it back in a few weeks and then driveshafts to fit and we can test drive !!


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## jacksdad (Apr 13, 2015)

Wow its been nearly a year since last posting, im afraid we have still not got a running motor i have the car back and still needs final wiring of BMS so hopefully should be live in next month or two

off piste a bit here but im interested in peoples opinion re guages i am planning to make up some bespoke smiths guages to keep a retro look double gauges like this:




I was thinking of these 6 guages im interested in what people think of my choice of paramaters, these will all be driven by reading can data from controllers and BMS doing some calculation and conversions on an arduino and converting to PWM to drive the guage i also have fuel guage and rpm and speedo


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## Spunagain (Jun 15, 2017)

What a great thread, thanks for posting!

Please can you tell me - what is your plan for getting IVA in the UK? Are you simply documenting what you have done to meet the R100 regs or are you getting a professional engineering company report? If so who and what does it cost please. 

I am planning a conversion of a non-classic, but to get the zero rated tax, I need to pass the IVA test with the conversion.


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## jacksdad (Apr 13, 2015)

That is a very good question, i have deferred worrying about this for now and plan to see where the land lies when it comes to the time for me to IVA, the latest situation was that kit cars where still being passed without a certificate of ece r100, and it was a mixed message about whether you needed one or not. I had a quote for £6k from MIRA for a certificate !!

For conversions i think you don't need the certificate, the best person to message is skooler:

http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forum...-conversion-formally-good-motoriii-61556.html

he will be very clued in to the latest situation


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## jacksdad (Apr 13, 2015)

its been a while ! lots of outside stresses have stopped us working on the car for a while got the car back from the EV specialists but unfortunately not finished so the final fitting up has fallen to us. Jack is at Uni now so he has limited time to work on it but happy to report in last few weeks have been moving forward

have finally got around to wiring up the BMS and the CAN bus to connect BMS and charger and motor controller together. 

I have not made up a CAN bus before so may have been a bit overkill but thought its was probably important to have it well screened as with a 144v AC motor I'm thinking there is going to be quite a lot of electrical noise to challenge the common mode rejection:

Neat little splice connector for each node:









note continuity of sheath earth drain by adding copper screen around each node and covering each node in self amalgamising tape 



and terminating resistor. here is the final schematic for 12v and high voltage happy to share if anyone interested 







so these are the jobs that need doing before final start up:

finish can bus and wire up the 2 battery CAN cell modules for the battery cases
fit DC-DC converter and wiring
Complete final battery box wiring (wire all cellmodules together and big 50mm2 wiring)
tap BMS control into existing 12v wiring so it comes on with ignition switch or with override switch
Wire up off board charger

then can charge batteries and then try to get motor running

fit drive shafts and take off


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## jacksdad (Apr 13, 2015)

More work done this week:

fitted hall sensor current monitor from emus



its open to elements but is supposes to be IP67 and will cover with polycarbonate shield in the end

Finally finished the BMS enclosure with the local CAN bus and main module inside with LED's in lid for charging status and on light. external connectors for USB and CAN port for external Elcon CAN charger








Have made up a temporary box with the Emus display and low voltage and high temperature warning lights i will in the future get guages made up in retro style to show min and max cell voltage state of charge total voltage and current and max cell and motor temperature - but this will get me started.



for the front battery pack i am installing a small bms enclosure to hold the can part for the front pack can module so i can remove the pack without unsoldering the CAN and controlling power supply to BMS - it will come on with the ignition but have an override switch so i can manually turn on the BMS without turning on the ignition circuit and motor controllers etc for charging. this enclosure is a small aluminium box (actually a bit too small and v tight fit in the end !!) 

to save space i tapped the holes for the glands as the gland nuts are too big and used my new mini milling machine to precision cut the DSUB cutout :











i have a query about the CAN bus but will post in the appropriate section


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

Hi
Your various electrical boxes
In a car and exposed to the elements you need to be careful that they don't retain water

Water can get ANYWHERE - but it's not that harmful - but if the water STAYS there its BAD

My old rule of thumb was to ensure that water can easily drain away - UNLESS I was very sure about keeping the water out
If I thought that I could take that box with me scuba diving THEN it was OK
If not then ensuring that it could drain was necessary


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## jacksdad (Apr 13, 2015)

Thanks Duncan - i am hoping to be ok the enclosures that are exposed are IP67 and ive used equivalent rated glands and connectors but i take your point that water always seems to get in i guess i could drill a couple of small holes in the base to allow water to drain out 

my biggest worry is the rear battery box that is open to the elements I plan to make up a well fitting poly carbonate lid with rubber seal etc abut im guess water slooshing around the bottom of the battery case is a very bad thing - could fashion neat little clear plastic roofs for these i guess to keep the direct rain off and im only planning to go out in the good weather but i am a bit worried - i could again drill a hole in the base of the battery box with lithium batteries do you need a vent for any gas release ?


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## jacksdad (Apr 13, 2015)

Made up a detachable box to programme and view curtis settings -im not going to use the spyglasses normally - will get data i need from bms - so i wanted to be able to plug these in and out:



plug on side of main wiring enclosure for controllers


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## jacksdad (Apr 13, 2015)

I have made up the off board charger box containing elcon charger and can module and contactor (both controlled by BMS) to switch of charger via contactor if any cell overvoltage or temperature and set the charging algorithm from the BMS and it will tell the charger exactly what voltage and current it wants continuously via the CAN link.



There are two leads to connect to the car one is the high voltage lead to the batteries to supply the charging current and the other a twisted pair to connect the BMS CAN bus to the charger CAN link and 12v for the contactor and return to the charger enable pin on the BMS.









I think i will need to adapt these a little to comply with the UK regs to interlock the motor when charger is attached, also at the moment you need to take the lid off the high voltage control box and plug in the anderson cables which im guessing may be frowned upon!

Just need to connect the cell modules together and the HV wiring within each battery case and then can setup BMS and controller software charge up batteries and should have a turning motor in time for Jack coming home from Uni at christmas - woohoo.


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## boekel (Nov 10, 2010)

jacksdad said:


> I have made up the off board charger box


How are you going to cool the charger?
if there's a way to expose only the cooling fins to the outside of the box, then the rest of the stuff in the box can remain weather tight.


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## jacksdad (Apr 13, 2015)

So actually all the components are weather resistant and sealed to IP67 so i don't think it would matter too much if it got wet, but my plan certainly for now is to charge up the car in my garage then drive around without the charger so it will be indoors. I have put some holes in the base to encourage air flow through the box so hopefully should cool ok. If i move it onboard later i think i would leave the main charger open and put the other components into a sealed box.


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## jacksdad (Apr 13, 2015)

Hi all

We are back in business jack back from Uni with course cancelled and house move now off suddenly have time to work on car - will put some new pictures up soon all is going well a couple of days away from firing up BMS


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## jacksdad (Apr 13, 2015)

Continuing to finish battery box wiring between rows we have a put a connector in the cell module daisy chain so we can easily disconnect this if we need to disconnect the main bus connector so these wires can't conduct a load. We have struggles a little with some of the battery terminals the thread is only about 5mm long so you have to get the exact bolt length correct as if the bolt is to long and hits the end of the hole it can easily strip the helicoil out and the same of you only engage the first few thread if too short - in the end we worked out exactly what length of bolt u need for each combination of one or tow bus bar cell module and cable lug, but even then can be very difficult to get right and have stripped a few threads - we have a few spare batteries and have experimented with solid thread inserts.


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## jacksdad (Apr 13, 2015)

More work done the rear battery case is now fully wired up and is LIVE 98V














So just checking all leads and confirming insulation resistance and no obvious shorts to the chassis then we will connect up the front and rear battery packs and then we can turn on the BMS and check this works ok and all batteries are monitored then we can a charge them all a little then we can try setting up the motor controller.


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## jacksdad (Apr 13, 2015)

Setting up BMS is going well (see separate thread on this thought would be useful for anyone setting up emus bms and easier to find in a specific thread) :

https://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1056477#post1056477

finally getting it all working now have to setup the charger and then moving on to the motor


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## Alex A (Apr 16, 2020)

jacksdad said:


> More work done the rear battery case is now fully wired up and is LIVE 98V
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I have a question: what the full capacity of battery and for how long it can hold.


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## jacksdad (Apr 13, 2015)

"I have a question: what the full capacity of battery and for how long it can hold."

Hi Alex A so i have 90 batteries which i have made into pairs joined in parallel then put in a series chain of 45 pairs. Each battery capacity is 72 ah so each pair is then a total of 144ah so the final pack is 144ah and 45 x3.2v = 144v so about 20.7 KWh.

i think my car is going to weigh around 700 - 800 KG (chassis+ 300kg batteries 180Kg and motor and chain drive 100KG + misc 100-150KG) and should drive around 100-150 miles depending on how hard its driven i guess.


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

jacksdad said:


> "I have a question: what the full capacity of battery and for how long it can hold."
> 
> Hi Alex A so i have 90 batteries which i have made into pairs joined in parallel then put in a series chain of 45 pairs. Each battery capacity is 72 ah so each pair is then a total of 144ah so the final pack is 144ah and 45 x3.2v = 144v so about 20.7 KWh.
> 
> i think my car is going to weigh around 700 - 800 KG (chassis+ 300kg batteries 180Kg and motor and chain drive 100KG + misc 100-150KG) and should drive around 100-150 miles depending on how hard its driven i guess.


20.7 kwh ??

I have 14 kwh - my car is 805 kg 

My range is about 50 km - 30 miles - at 100 kph

I suspect that at highway speeds you will get about 50 miles range


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## jacksdad (Apr 13, 2015)

Duncan said:


> 20.7 kwh ??
> 
> I have 14 kwh - my car is 805 kg
> 
> ...


I guess that makes sense i've never really worried about distance I did a back of envelope calculation a few years ago and thought it should be around 100 miles but never really did this properly as the car is designed for a quick blast then return home to charge up.

I have a potential delay though HPEVS have advised me that i should get up to date software for the curtis controllers as its over 5 yrs old now -its depressing how long this build has taken but life just gets in the way  . I find HPEVS the most helpful people I've come across in this build - the plan is to get the pc dongle thingy and they will send me a software update to load. I guess this will take a bit of time but not as long as sending the controllers across the atlantic and back.

thanks for your input Duncan


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

jacksdad said:


> i think my car is going to weigh around 700 - 800 KG (chassis+ 300kg batteries 180Kg and motor and chain drive 100KG + misc 100-150KG) and should drive around 100-150 miles depending on how hard its driven i guess.


That would be 13.8 to 20.7 kWh per 100 miles (138 to 207 Wh/mile), or 8.6 to 12.9 kWh per 100 km (86 to 129 Wh/mile). Although the car is light, it is also aerodynamically poor (due to the nearly open-wheel skeletal design), and so those seem like optimistic to very optimistic estimates.

It will still be fun 50 miles at a time.


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## jacksdad (Apr 13, 2015)

set up the DC-DC controller today after chasing down an earth leak in the bms wiring box which was annoyingly time consuming. This seems to work well also from Elcon. Will now test the controller wiring to check all is connected as it should be before setting up the controller software - the dongle should be coming next week.

Feels close now - should maybe put the seats back in in preparation !! Also have to fit the drive shafts as well i have purposely left these out at the moment so i can test the motor without having to lift the back wheels of the ground which seems quite dangerous to me


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## jacksdad (Apr 13, 2015)

v exciting today received the programmer from HPEVS and uploaded latest software for controllers and parameter set. This was incredibly easy with excellent instructions from HPEVS all ran very smoothly.



made up a lead so i could update each controller in turn from my laptop indoors with 12v power supply - connected first time with no issues new software flash loaded to curtis with ease.

Tomorrow we will bolt controllers back in and wire up the motor and hopefully get our first motor spin !!!!


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## jacksdad (Apr 13, 2015)

YESSSSSSSS!!!!!!!!!

It works !!! the motor spins this is a very big day as we started this in 2012 !! here are a couple of vids. The pc programmer for the curtis makes the setup loads easier than the spyglass and menu button. We will now fit the drive shafts and seats and we can see if the car moves !!


https://youtu.be/fgshSpd4uEo

https://youtu.be/OdmBR3DOnqo


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## jacksdad (Apr 13, 2015)

Drive shafts fitted very easily today we were worried as it was difficult to get the motor unit perfectly central but there was enough lateral play to make this up - just undid top wishbone bolt and swung the uprights out watching for brake pipe popped the outer spine on the shaft into the bearing and popped the inner CV back in and put boot onand torqued it up. All seemed to fit back fine and then put wheels back on and ran motor with car still on axle stands and wheels turned fine. 





https://youtu.be/2LAWXhlifjM?list=TLPQMTEwNTIwMjBmAJmGKxhFnw


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## tylerwatts (Feb 9, 2012)

Great progress. Just an observation, there seems to be a lot of noise from the motors like the timing is out but it might just be cause there's no real load on them. And a little chain noise but no surprise by that.

Cheers
Tyler


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## jacksdad (Apr 13, 2015)

FIRST DRIVE TODAY YAYYYY !!!!!

Big big moment for us it has been 8 years :'(

first seats fitted :





taped up a few loose cables should be fine for IVA !!




and go slowly at first :

https://youtu.be/yy0QVuqfDqc

then a bit quicker it feels quite promising to as we have throttle map at 30% and time for torque to reach maximum when throttle fully pressed at 1.5 seconds (minimum 0.2s) and current limited 50%

https://youtu.be/vsE5SoZ7bKQ

and reverse

https://youtu.be/gi2EGg7RAfE


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## jacksdad (Apr 13, 2015)

just a question anyone using the hpevs ac25x2 we have no chiller plate and the controllers seem to get hot quite quick even just running motors for few minutes with no load temp went to 40 degs - is this to be expected or a sign of something wrong - monitoring the controllers during a run all seems fine currents and voltages as expected - i have ordered a couple of chiller plates - i wasnt sure if i would need them but i guess i deffo will.


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## tylerwatts (Feb 9, 2012)

Well interestingly that corresponds to my comments about timing. I'm not suggesting it is that but it's a likely culprit given the noise. Most likely just a variation between motor types. Were you advised to do an autotune from the maps you uploaded to fine tune the programs to the motors? There's always some variation between motors and controllers, enough to cause a few percent efficiency loss and warm up the controller's like that. Have a word with your controller guys.

Cheers
Tyler


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## jacksdad (Apr 13, 2015)

tylerwatts said:


> Well interestingly that corresponds to my comments about timing. I'm not suggesting it is that but it's a likely culprit given the noise. Most likely just a variation between motor types. Were you advised to do an autotune from the maps you uploaded to fine tune the programs to the motors? There's always some variation between motors and controllers, enough to cause a few percent efficiency loss and warm up the controller's like that. Have a word with your controller guys.
> 
> Cheers
> Tyler


thanks Tyler that is not something i was not aware of at all i will indeed ask HPEVS i just downloaded their latest firmware for these motors and controllers I will ask them if i can tune them - what noise did you hear that made you suspect this all i can hear is some chain noise and motor whine - there is a noise like something is turning i can hear before anything moves is this usual ??


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## jacksdad (Apr 13, 2015)

I was just looking at the parameter files from hpevs and the base speed is different for the primary (2400) and secondary controllers (2800) i don;t understand enough about this motor to know if this is correct or not - i certainly could not find any autotune functions - and i am not at all keen to tweek any parameters outside of the standard user ones in the HPEVS guide - lets see what HPEVS have to say - certainly interesting for me to get more of an understanding of the motor physics


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

Looking at your picture of the drivers seat reminds me that I modified my steering column to tilt upwards (far beyond a usable amount) to help to get into the car 
Otherwise there is little or no gap to pass your foot through when climbing into the car

Saying that I do like the wheel quite close to me for rapid movement when playing on the track


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