# [EVDL] Seeking Conversion Mentor for '65 MG Midget



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Hi Jessica,
Welcome to the list.

One person you might consult who's done a really nice midget/spridget
conversion is Mark Hayes. His email address is [email protected] Tell him
I sent you his way.

-Mark Warner



> Jessica Bussert <[email protected]>wrote:
> 
> >
> > Hello Folks,
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Hi Jessica,
Welcome!
In my opinion, the midget is a great platform for such a project.
I would recommend that you look at using a AC motor and lithium, as these
have become user friendly, and lithiums will help reduce the weight
restrictions of your project.
If you contact me off list, I can direct you to reliable suppliers for both
systems.
I am sure that Mark can help with a source for parts such as the adaptor
plate. Of course with milling experience and a source for aluminum stock,
you may be able to make your own at a substantial savings.
Best,
-Tom



> Jessica Bussert <[email protected]>wrote:
> 
> >
> > Hello Folks,
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Hi Jessica,
Welcome to the list.

For an interesting assortment of EVs that can give you
ideas of what is feasible, what components are used
and what the (expected) performance can be, you can
browse the EValbum at evalbum.com - it has a wide
range of vehicles so search on the ones that you are
interested in, ones with similar weight and batteries
and contact the owners if they can share their stories,
many have a blog or a writeup that they made about their
experiences that they once shared at a meeting and which
is yours for the asking...

Further, on this list you will get an incredible amount
of support, if you can ask the right questions but seeing
your qualifications I have little doubt,
so I only need to wish you success and a lot of fun
doing your conversion!

Cor van de Water
Chief Scientist
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
Email: [email protected] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water XoIP: +31877841130
Tel: +1 408 383 7626 Tel: +91 (040)23117400 x203 =


-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behal=
f Of Jessica Bussert
Sent: Monday, April 23, 2012 11:11 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: [EVDL] Seeking Conversion Mentor for '65 MG Midget


Hello Folks,

I'm looking for a mentor who might be willing to help me design an effectiv=
e EV conversion for a '65 MG Midget. I am -not- looking for someone to d=
o all the work for me. I'm mostly just hoping to tap into existing exper=
ience before I go about reinventing the wheel.

A bit about me: I'm a
former systems analyst/designer for global computer networks and a current =
emergency room nurse. I know my way around most tools and I can read a s=
chematic. I can weld, solder, build, hammer, smash, make, and decimate m=
ost any project. I've built two CNC mills in the past and am working on =
a third. In other words I'm not some needy little chica.

A bit about my needs: I work at a hospital about 30 miles away from my h=
ome. I usually work a 12 hour shift, come home, sleep, wake up, and do i=
t all again. I need a conversion that can do a 60 mile round trip with s=
ome room to spare. I want a speed of 55~65 mph and I need to maintain sp=
eed driving around Southern Indiana's hilly terrain. I'd prefer Li techn=
ology but don't know enough to effectively evaluate alternatives. I need=
a 10 hour charge cycle or less. Finally, I'm hoping to spend less than =
$6k on the project. This last item might not be possible, but I really d=
o need to keep something like a 3 year ROI when compared to an ICE in order=
to justify the project.

If you think you might be interested in sharing your experience, please con=
tact me off the list. My user name is jessbussert and I can be found on =
the system that used to advertise by yodeling.

Thanks!
Jessica
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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> On 23 Apr 2012 at 12:42, Thos True wrote:
> 
> > I would recommend that you look at using a AC motor and lithium, as these
> > have become user friendly, and lithiums will help reduce the weight
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Harry wrote- 

you will either need to double your cost or half your range [and use lead], either way i recommend using an AC50 for your project [ http://evolveelectrics.com/High%20Performance%20AC%20Motor.html ] it is a little more pricey than a DC system but well worth it. 

but most importantly have fun

Hi All,

I totally agree with the 2nd statement, but I'm not sold on AC systems. There was a whole discussion back in '06 about AC vs DC, look it up in the archives for the full thread.

But here is John Waylands response to Victor Tikhonov statement about AC and driving in all driving speeds on one gear, no need to shift.

"I don't agree. My high voltage DC powered Datsun 1200 sedan with its 
Siamese 8 motor runs 0-120 mph in one gear. I cannot think one of 
Victor's AC drive packages that can even remotely match this car's 0-60 
performance (3+ seconds), its 0-100 mph performance (11+ seconds), or 
its top speed for that matter (without shifting). Credit to Otmar for 
his over-engineered Z2K design!

My other more tame lower voltage (156V) EV, another Datsun 1200 sedan, 
can be left in third gear to give a no-shifting driving experience. Left 
in third gear it 'is' slower than if shifted from 2-3-4 (under that mode 
it runs 0-60 in ~ 6 seconds, probably runs 14.5 -14.8 in the 1/4 mile, 
and can top 120 mph), but still under the handicap of being left in one 
gear it runs 0-60 in ~ 8 seconds and tops out at ~ 90 mph...about the 
same as one of Victor's $10,000 AC drive systems (price includes a high 
voltage battery pack and BMS), but this car is able to do it for half 
the price at about $5000 with a 9 inch motor, a Z1K controller, a 
separate DC-DC, and a low voltage pack of just 13 Optimas, Orbitals, or 
Hawkers...credit again, to Otmar for his affordable Z1K line of controllers.

> I'm yet to hear anyone who tried
> an AC system and regret the decision and want to go back to DC one.
> This alone means to me AC is overall technically more superior

Hate to pop your bubble then.....I have vast experience in driving AC 
powered EVs, trust me. I've driven perhaps 20 EV1s, have had AC powered 
pickups to drive for months at a time, have driven Alan Cocconi's AC 
CRX, have driven quite a few Solectria vehicles including the Sunrise, 
the Force (Metro), and their twin drive AC pickups, have driven AC 
powered Ford Rangers, have driven factory made AC vehicles from Nissan's 
LiIon powered Altra wagon to Honda's NiMH powered EV +...oh, the list 
could go on and on. But the truth is, I still prefer DC powered cars in 
nearly all aspects. For the same money, the DC cars run off and hide 
from AC cars...heck, even at half the price, they still outperform the 
AC cars. DC cars give thrilling, adrenalin pumping off line torque, and 
have a much higher fun factor, period! It was always interesting to go 
from driving the EV1 to my DC powered Datsun 'Blue Meanie'. The EV1 was 
smooth and swift, could hit 80+ mph, and of course, had a higher tech, 
higher energy density pack of NiMh batteries that gave it outstanding 
range per charge, but my trusty lead acid powered, shorter range DC car 
could still kick its butt in the 0-60 run and really kick its butt in 
top end speed  For me, the driving experience in the EV1, hip and 
advanced as it was, was still not to the level of my backyard built DC 
car with its instantaneous torque and snappy 0-60 blast!

So, am I dissing AC? Certainly not. My Insight has an AC drive system, 
and some of my favorite EVs I have had the pleasure to sample have been 
AC powered. I loved GM's AC powered EV1 and have fondly written about 
it...I also loved Otmar's cooler than cool little Sprint with its low 
power Brusa AC drive. I spent many hours behind the wheel of that fun 
car. What it lacked in power, it made up for in stingy miles per charge, 
silky smooth rev-forever drive, killer regen, and oh yeah, that rock'n 
Wayland sound system it had! One evening Oat and I took it up into the 
hills near Palo Alto for a spirited drive up twisting mountain roads to 
the summit where it was getting low on SOC, only to regen all the way 
back down and return to the flatlands with a hefty charge put back 
in...what fun that was! I also have an EV grin producing memory of 
watching Victor do his capacitor powered AC burnout....way cool!

AC is cool, DC is cool. However, the thought that only AC can be used 
for single gear driving to cover 0-100 mph speeds, is not correct at 
all. In fact, I would say that for the same money, the DC single speed 
(direct drive) is superior to the AC single speed (direct drive) in 
terms of thrilling power, extreme torque, and higher top speed (while 
still retaining super quick 0-60). Now, as to regen and the highest 
overall efficiency (perhaps 3-5% better), the nod goes to AC.

While I've enjoyed the discussion between my two friends, in the end, 
all I can say is thank you to both for providing expert service, and for 
helping to shape the EV conversion market in a positive way.

See Ya......John Wayland"

Rush Dougherty
www.TucsonEV.com




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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

I did similar math last year for my project, a '60 Metropolitan.
Similar chassis if that makes any sense. I'm changing the front
brakes to Midget disks... $100 for a deal on used parts.

I have a 23HP DC motor and transmission and a Curtis controller that I
got for $200 off an S10 conversion being parted out.

So so far I only have $300 in my EV. But I have a 40 mile commute to
work and I want to go 50 miles before there is battery sag so I can
almost make the $6000 limit but...

I also have a lead foot. Okay, I could drive disciplined, but I'm
just not going to. I want to drive an EV for fun. I really need
160AH batteries so now my pack is almost $8K with a couple of spares
to replace the ones that go below spec in a couple of years. I can
solder together my own BMS... so that's only another $2k for a used
programmable charger and BMS.

It's exhausting! But when I'm done I'll have a way cool ride that's
easy to maintain and fun to drive.

sean



> EVDL Administrator <[email protected]> wrote:
> > On 23 Apr 2012 at 12:42, Thos True wrote:
> >
> >> I would recommend that you look at using a AC motor and lithium, as these
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> On 23 Apr 2012 at 16:02, Rush wrote:
> 
> > I totally agree with the 2nd statement, but I'm not sold on AC
> > systems.
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

I completely agree. I work on the same site with Mark Hayes. I almost
feel embarrassed parking my car next to his at the chargers. His is a
gorgeous ground-up restoration job. Mine runs.

Some comments:

That kind of range and budget are going to be hard to swing unless you're
really good at scrounging (and a little lucky). To get that kind of range
in that kind of car, you're almost certainly going to be talking lithium.
You will find that the lithium cells alone are likely to bust the budget.

If you can find some way to charge while at work, that makes all the design
choices much more feasible. For example, I'm driving a Honda del Sol
conversion about 25 miles each way. I have 50 mile range, but wouldn't be
comfortable stretching to the limit of that each day. Recharging at work
makes it easy with 50% range used for each trip. I have about a 13 kWh
pack. That is 45 - 100 Ah LiFePO4 Thundersky cells.

Mike 
www.evalbum.com/2778


> -----Original Message-----
> From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On
> Behalf Of Mark Warner
> Sent: Monday, April 23, 2012 12:15 PM
> To: Jessica Bussert; Electric Vehicle Discussion List
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Seeking Conversion Mentor for '65 MG Midget
> 
> Hi Jessica,
> Welcome to the list.
> 
> One person you might consult who's done a really nice midget/spridget
> conversion is Mark Hayes. His email address is [email protected] Tell him
> I sent you his way.
> 
> -Mark Warner
> 
> On Mon, Apr 23, 2012 at 10:40 AM, Jessica Bussert


> > <[email protected]>wrote:
> >
> > >
> > > Hello Folks,
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Hi Jessica (and all),

Welcome to the EVDL! You'll get lots of good advice in this thread. You 
may find that you go from not having enough answers to having *too many* 
answers! 



> Harry Henderson wrote:
> > regen... you don't need to add vacuum brakes or upgrade to disks
> 
> I'm pretty sure the MG has manual brakes.
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Thos True wrote:
> > I would recommend that you look at using a AC motor and lithium, as these
> > have become user friendly, and lithiums will help reduce the weight
> > restrictions of your project.
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Wow... I would have never expected so much input in less
than 12 hours! Thanks to all of you for
your input. I'm going to toss out a
little more info about my situation to see if I can muddy the waters even m=
ore.

First off, my budget is based on the expectation that I can
save $200 a month in gas if I switch to an EV. If I shoot for a 3 year R=
OI then I can potentially invest $7200 in the
conversion. I picked $6000 leaving the
remaining $1200 for any probable cost over-runs. Having worked on a numb=
er of other crazy
projects in the past, this $1200 is more than likely woefully inadequate.=
So what? I'll look sexy driving my snazzy MG while wearing my rose c=
olored
glasses! 

Next, I realize that range is as much a factor of driving
style as it is of batteries. I am not a
delicate driver. I'm a friggin
leadfoot! I love screaming around our
twisty, turny, hilly back country roads in my little Midget. It's a real=
ly fun drive! So, if I were rich I'd be spinning this as a
high performance project with a crazy ton of torque under the hood. It's=
going to be a big change for me to
switch my driving style and I hope I can pull it off.

MG's have no heat to speak of. I was planning on dressing warm and heati=
ng
up a couple of hot water bottles before I took off during winter drives.=
Again, I hope this isn't unrealistic as I'm really
a lover of warmth. It was a big cosmic
joke that I was born in Indiana. I just know that I was supposed to have=
been born
a Caribbean princess...

I'd love LiIon powering this thing, but are there any reasonably
priced sources for these? I was in China a few
years ago with my old profession and found sources for small lithium polymer
batteries. Has anyone found and tried Asian
alternatives? What about a whole slew of
salvaged marine batteries from one of the local bone yards? Would a puls=
e desulfator rejuvenate these
into usable condition? Would the weight
be too much for such a little car?

I know the feds are offering a $7500 credit for factory new
EV's. Are there any incentives for
conversions?

I probably cannot charge at work. As a result, I really need to get at l=
east 60
miles range and keep myself to an 8 hour charge cycle. I wouldn't have a=
problem running 220vac out
to garage if that helps, but I'd also like a 120vac option for when I'm
visiting family or friends.

Are there totaled hybrids out there that peeps can pick up
cheap and salvage the parts? Is this a
better/worse idea than forklifts? I've
not heard of salvaging forklifts previously so I can't really comment. W=
hat about industrial motors? Can someone salvage a big honkin' three pha=
se
from a piece of machinery and do anything with that?

Last, but not least, are there any rich 'ol engineering
geeks out there who would want to provide me with a big, fat grant to do th=
is
project right? Mr. Gates, are you
listening? Woz? Are you out there somewhere? *grins*

Hope this helps. Once
again, I now realize that I'm probably being unrealistic. Shame, that, b=
ecause I'm really sick and
tired of paying Shiek Abuexxon al BP such a big chunk of my paycheck. Yo=
u know, if we as a nation had spent 10% of
our warchest on research and development... Well, I guess I shouldn't go=
there. Suffice it to say I'm just pissed off and want to make a change.

Thanks again!
Jessica
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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Hi Jessica,

Thanks for the additional information. =


There used to be a tax credit for a conversion of 10% of the cost. I think
that is still valid, but I'm not completely sure. I bought my EV already
converted so the original owner took the tax credit.

I'm running Thundersky LiFePO4 cells so I can give comments about that.
However, I haven't had to purchase any in a long time. My general
impression is that prices of bottom-end lithium (like Thundersky) haven't
come down much in price, but the prices of higher performance lithium (like
Headway or A123) do seem to be coming much closer to the prices of
Thundersky. That is actually a good thing because they offer better
performance.

A good rule of thumb when sizing your pack for lithium is to assume that 1
gallon of gasoline will be about the same as 8 kWh of storage with lithium.
So, if you were burning 2 1/2 gallons of gas per day, you need about 20+ kWh
of storage. I added the plus because you have to add extra for heat (if you
use it) and don't want to drain your batteries all the way every day. With
my 13 kWh, I get about 50 miles range in a Honda del Sol.

Another item I should point out: Many people come to the conclusion that
they are driving electric because they just think it's the right thing to
do, but it isn't completely paying off. That has been a somewhat frequent
subject of discussion here. It may break even, but probably won't pay off
big, unless you're good at scrounging.

My case in point:

I paid $12K for a Honda del Sol already converted with lithium. I think I
got a bargain because this was about $2K less than the cost of parts, and I
didn=92t have to do the work! However, I also paid $12K for a car that wou=
ld
have been worth $2K tops if it were still gas. I drive about 1K miles per
month, but my normal commuter was a Mazda 626 V6 that I've learned to drive
efficiently at 30-35 MPG. So, even with gas around $3.75, the Mazda only
costs me $117 per month in gas. That's about $1300 a year. =


If the del Sol lasts 10 years without a new battery pack, I will break even.
However, in the mean time, I'm driving electric, grinning every time I pass
a gas station, AND I get to drive a convertible! But, I'm probably not
saving money.

I certainly don't mean to discourage you, but wanted to make sure you
realize where this could go. Sometimes I wish I had converted my car
myself. I think it would be a lot of fun. However, I've done enough work
on my car to feel like I did everything but the motor adapter. (See my
previous post!)

My dream would be to stuff a Warp 11 HV with high performance lithium cells
into a Mazda RX-8. That definitely wouldn't pay off. But it would be fun!

Mike

> -----Original Message-----
> From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On
> Behalf Of Jessica Bussert
> Sent: Monday, April 23, 2012 11:56 PM
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Seeking Conversion Mentor for '65 MG Midget
> =

> =

> Wow... I would have never expected so much input in less than 12
> hours! Thanks to all of you for your input. I'm going to toss out a
little more
> info about my situation to see if I can muddy the waters even more.
> =

> First off, my budget is based on the expectation that I can save $200 a
month
> in gas if I switch to an EV. If I shoot for a 3 year ROI then I can
potentially
> invest $7200 in the conversion. I picked $6000 leaving the remaining
$1200
> for any probable cost over-runs. Having worked on a number of other cr=
azy
> projects in the past, this $1200 is more than likely woefully inadequate.=

So
> what? I'll look sexy driving my snazzy MG while wearing my rose colored
> glasses! 
> =

> Next, I realize that range is as much a factor of driving style as it is
of
> batteries. I am not a delicate driver. I'm a friggin leadfoot! I=
love
screaming
> around our twisty, turny, hilly back country roads in my little Midget.=

It's a
> really fun drive! So, if I were rich I'd be spinning this as a high
performance
> project with a crazy ton of torque under the hood. It's going to be a =
big
> change for me to switch my driving style and I hope I can pull it off.
> =

> MG's have no heat to speak of. I was planning on dressing warm and
heating
> up a couple of hot water bottles before I took off during winter
> drives. Again, I hope this isn't unrealistic as I'm really a lover of
warmth. It
> was a big cosmic joke that I was born in Indiana. I just know that I w=
as
> supposed to have been born a Caribbean princess...
> =

> I'd love LiIon powering this thing, but are there any reasonably priced
sources
> for these? I was in China a few years ago with my old profession and
found
> sources for small lithium polymer batteries. Has anyone found and tried
> Asian alternatives? What about a whole slew of salvaged marine batteri=
es
> from one of the local bone yards? Would a pulse desulfator rejuvenate
> these into usable condition? Would the weight be too much for such a
little
> car?
> =

> I know the feds are offering a $7500 credit for factory new EV's. Are
there
> any incentives for conversions?
> =

> I probably cannot charge at work. As a result, I really need to get at
least 60
> miles range and keep myself to an 8 hour charge cycle. I wouldn't have=
a
> problem running 220vac out to garage if that helps, but I'd also like a
120vac
> option for when I'm visiting family or friends.
> =

> Are there totaled hybrids out there that peeps can pick up cheap and
salvage
> the parts? Is this a better/worse idea than forklifts? I've not hea=
rd of
> salvaging forklifts previously so I can't really comment. What about
industrial
> motors? Can someone salvage a big honkin' three phase from a piece of
> machinery and do anything with that?
> =

> Last, but not least, are there any rich 'ol engineering geeks out there
who
> would want to provide me with a big, fat grant to do this project right?=

Mr.
> Gates, are you listening? Woz? Are you out there somewhere? *gri=
ns*
> =

> Hope this helps. Once
> again, I now realize that I'm probably being unrealistic. Shame, that,
because
> I'm really sick and tired of paying Shiek Abuexxon al BP such a big chunk
of
> my paycheck. You know, if we as a nation had spent 10% of our warchest=
on
> research and development... Well, I guess I shouldn't go there. Suf=
fice
it to
> say I'm just pissed off and want to make a change.
> =

> Thanks again!
> Jessica
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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

If you are really really handy and a really good electrical engineer and re=
ally persistent... You might be able to scavenge the assist systems from 4 =
to 8 Honda Insights, and use that. I'd imagine you'd be the first ever to t=
ry this! I'd humbly suggest you try to get one system working independently=
of the Honda it came from before buying more. I would consider this a high=
risk approach.


I drove my car with just a big switch instead of a controller for a while. =
Since I have a sepex motor it won't overspeed but spins at a constant rpm. =
I had to shift to change speeds. It was cheap, and fun that it was somethin=
g that could have been done when my 35 year old car was new, but not freewa=
y capable. It had awesome regen. You'd again be on your own with this appro=
ach as very few people do sepex cars.

I think the best bet would be to try to scrounge cheap used parts for every=
thing but batteries. Once the car is built then splurge on Lithium batterie=
s (your only hope for that range in such a small car).

You can do RC battery chargers for about $10 a battery. If you are really a=
dventurous you could do a "bad boy" charger, but there is a good chance you=
'd ruin your expensive batteries.

So that was a meandering way to say cheap can be done, but it would take co=
nsiderable skill to do it and the risk of ruining your batteries would be h=
igh.

BTW I converted my Porsche 911 for less than your budget ( http://Exploding=
Dinosaurs.com), but it would go only cruise about 40 mph (well I did hit 59=
mph once on level ground, but it wouldn't cruise at that speed) and go onl=
y about 10 miles. I'm now doing version 2.0 that I think will go about 50 m=
iles and exceed 100 mph, but that cost is about double your budget. =




________________________________
From: Jessica Bussert <[email protected]>
To: "[email protected]" <[email protected]> =

Sent: Monday, April 23, 2012 11:56 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Seeking Conversion Mentor for '65 MG Midget
=


Wow... I would have never expected so much input in less
than 12 hours! Thanks to all of you for
your input. I'm going to toss out a
little more info about my situation to see if I can muddy the waters even m=
ore.

First off, my budget is based on the expectation that I can
save $200 a month in gas if I switch to an EV. If I shoot for a 3 year R=
OI then I can potentially invest $7200 in the
conversion. I picked $6000 leaving the
remaining $1200 for any probable cost over-runs. Having worked on a numb=
er of other crazy
projects in the past, this $1200 is more than likely woefully inadequate.=
So what? I'll look sexy driving my snazzy MG while wearing my rose c=
olored
glasses! 

Next, I realize that range is as much a factor of driving
style as it is of batteries. I am not a
delicate driver. I'm a friggin
leadfoot! I love screaming around our
twisty, turny, hilly back country roads in my little Midget. It's a real=
ly fun drive! So, if I were rich I'd be spinning this as a
high performance project with a crazy ton of torque under the hood. It's=
going to be a big change for me to
switch my driving style and I hope I can pull it off.

MG's have no heat to speak of. I was planning on dressing warm and heati=
ng
up a couple of hot water bottles before I took off during winter drives.=
Again, I hope this isn't unrealistic as I'm really
a lover of warmth. It was a big cosmic
joke that I was born in Indiana. I just know that I was supposed to have=
been born
a Caribbean princess...

I'd love LiIon powering this thing, but are there any reasonably
priced sources for these? I was in China a few
years ago with my old profession and found sources for small lithium polymer
batteries. Has anyone found and tried Asian
alternatives? What about a whole slew of
salvaged marine batteries from one of the local bone yards? Would a puls=
e desulfator rejuvenate these
into usable condition? Would the weight
be too much for such a little car?

I know the feds are offering a $7500 credit for factory new
EV's. Are there any incentives for
conversions?

I probably cannot charge at work. As a result, I really need to get at l=
east 60
miles range and keep myself to an 8 hour charge cycle. I wouldn't have a=
problem running 220vac out
to garage if that helps, but I'd also like a 120vac option for when I'm
visiting family or friends.

Are there totaled hybrids out there that peeps can pick up
cheap and salvage the parts? Is this a
better/worse idea than forklifts? I've
not heard of salvaging forklifts previously so I can't really comment. W=
hat about industrial motors? Can someone salvage a big honkin' three pha=
se
from a piece of machinery and do anything with that?

Last, but not least, are there any rich 'ol engineering
geeks out there who would want to provide me with a big, fat grant to do th=
is
project right? Mr. Gates, are you
listening? Woz? Are you out there somewhere? *grins*

Hope this helps. Once
again, I now realize that I'm probably being unrealistic. Shame, that, b=
ecause I'm really sick and
tired of paying Shiek Abuexxon al BP such a big chunk of my paycheck. Yo=
u know, if we as a nation had spent 10% of
our warchest on research and development... Well, I guess I shouldn't go=
there. Suffice it to say I'm just pissed off and want to make a change.

Thanks again!
Jessica
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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Lee Hart wrote:
> > If a car has power brakes, I don't think you can use regen
> > to convert it to manual. Regen can't work if the pack is
> > already full,
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> On 23 Apr 2012 at 23:27, Lee Hart wrote:
> 
> > Why do you [think] battery cost will be affected by whether it is AC
> > or DC? For a particular range, she just needs a particular amount of
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

If you value reliability and your own time, you will likely find that a 
Leaf (or other similar factory EV) is FAR cheaper than a conversion.

You should place a (negative) value on strandings (being left in 
mid-trip with a dead car) and then realize that a fresh conversion will 
likely present you with MANY such experiences. Is avoiding a stranding 
worth $100 to you? Or $1000?

In the DC/AC debate, I haven't seen reliability mentioned. Are AC 
systems more reliable than DC? My experience has been that DC 
controllers are horribly un-reliable.

-- 
Willie, ONWARD! Through the fog!
http://counter.li.org Linux registered user #228836 since 1995
Debian3.1/GNU/Linux system uptime 35 days 21 min minutes

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Suffice it to say I'm just pissed off and want to make a change.

There you go, that adds another $7200 on top of your ROI estimate ;<}. 
Now you can get that AC50 and lithium pack. Do it once and do it right 
- it's a big project. You can throw out that ROI anyway, a lot of this 
is just about the project. It's worth paying more because you'll never 
loose the things you'll learn and the people you'll meet.

We need leaders, early adopters, and EVangelists. You've raised your 
hand - thanks! You'll have a great project, a fun car and an endless 
supply of people to talk to everywhere you go with your car. You'll 
sleep much better too - knowing you're not a part of the big problem we 
have anymore.

One of our EAA chapter members just finished an immaculate restoration 
of an MG Midget. He'll be ordering an AC50 and lithium pack soon. 
Email me for his contact info if you'd like.

Gary Krysztopik
ZWheelz, LLC - www.ZWheelz.com
Alamo City Electric Auto Association - www.aceaa.org
blog - http://voices.mysanantonio.com/drive_electric_san_antonio/
San Antonio, TX



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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

It depends on the DC controller. After I replaced my second
Curtis controller with an Auburn Scientific C600 (company now
defunct, too long ago) I never had a DC controller failure. No
many how much I tortured it (and I purposely did). It was air
cooled and after climbing a 2000+ mountain it was hot as a 
pistol. But it kept right on working.

...
On a different point:

I hope you consider having an onboard charger that can recharge
your pack either off 3kW Level-2 (faster), or 1.3kW Level-1 
(slow). Since there are no public 6.6kW EVSE in your area, it 
would not be cost effective to have a charger onboard with that 
capability, and you would need to also spend the money to make 
it have an J1772 port.

Since you will be working more than 8 hours, even a level-1 AC 
source would easily give you back the 30+ miles of energy you 
will expend on your commute.

If you were lucky enough to find an enlightened soul at your 
company that wanted to install EV charging in a remote parking 
spot that no ice will want to use, but did not want to spend the
high cost of a formal J1772 EVSE, the alternative is simple and
low cost.

Level-1 EV charging only needs a regular 5-20 outlet. A 3kW
Level-2 can be just as easy to put in without a formal EVSE
by installing a 6-20 receptacle. The same gauge wire is used 
on it the same as a regular ol' 110VAC 20Amp outlet.

I found a combo receptacle that has both on it
http://www.plccenter.com/Shop/LEVITON/5031I/NSPP
could serve quite well. Your company's site facilities 
electricians would have not problem installing it.

Having a spot that has an easy to install and use outlet
that provides both Level-1 and 2 EV charging would pay-off
in the future for when there is another EV driver at your work.

You could save the company the cost of painting the space, and
just install an EV-Only sign yourself (they are about $30)
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00095NLBQ/ref=pd_lpo_k2_dp_sr_3
Mount it at about 5.5' level so it is in the ice driver face 
that tries to park there.


{brucedp.150m.com}


-


> Willie McKemie wrote:
> > If you value reliability and your own time, you will likely find that a
> > Leaf (or other similar factory EV) is FAR cheaper than a conversion.
> >
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

This is a challenge, for sure. My Z3 Roadster is not quite as small as an MG. I gave up nearly all of the trunk and got rid of the spare tire, too. Steve Clunn, who did the conversion, cut out the bottom of the trunk and welded in a lower battery box, so there are two rows of 100AH cells there. 48 in the rear and 32 up front.

The back sat low with the 300 new pounds and speed bumps were a problem at any speed. So I found coilsprings.com, since this car has custom-wound springs, and they created new, beefier ones that lifted it right back to the correct height.

Bruce




> [email protected]xxx.edu wrote:
> > splurge on Lithium batteries (your only hope for that range in such a small car).
> 
> -------------- next part --------------
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Mike wrote - 

> With my 13 kWh, I get about 50 miles range in a Honda del Sol.

So that works out to (13kWh/50miles) 260 kWh/mile. 

How far down do you actually take your Thundersky's? 100Ah batteries?

Thanks
Rush Dougherty
www.TucsonEV.com



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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> EVDL Administrator wrote:
> > She lives in a hilly area, where regen is most effective. Perhaps I'm be=
> ing
> > naive, but it seems to me that if she can count on 10-20% more range from
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Lee Hart wrote:
> >> [regen] rarely can provide much braking force when it is working.
> 
> Cor van de Water wrote:
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

>> Suffice it to say I'm just pissed off and want to make a change.



> Gary Krysztopik wrote:
> > We need leaders, early adopters, and EVangelists. You've raised your
> > hand - thanks! You'll have a great project, a fun car and an endless
> > supply of people to talk to everywhere you go with your car. You'll
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

I agree with Lee on almost everything he says in this thread. I have long
been a supporter of DC home builds, however, since getting a Leaf last
June, I have become much more excited about AC and regen. The AC-50 has
made this a break even prospect when compared to the typical Dc and a
requisite performance controller. When this is combined with Lithiums, the
range and reliability factor increases dramatically. I have "killed"
several lead acid packs over the past years in a variety of ways (most
often due to a lack of quality bms systems). Lithiums seem to be much more
tolerant when it comes to these issues, and a few good bms systems have
come to the front of the crowd (and they seem to have fewer components!).
Of course there is also the fact that under normal conditions, lithiums
will last 3 times as long as lead. And yet another HUGE advantage of
lithiums is their weight. There is less need to reconfigure your brakes and
suspension when you are adding the weight of 1 passenger versus the weight
of 3.
Another factor to consider is the environment that you are planning to use
your vehicle in. If you are in the mid west, there are usually few serious
hills, but there are cold winters. If you are in the south west it is warm
year around, but there are often steep grades to contend with, etc.

-Tom



> Lee Hart <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> > Lee Hart wrote:
> > >> [regen] rarely can provide much braking force when it is working.
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Hi Jessica,

There's been a lot of comment on most of your points from others so I won't bore you with my spin on what has already been discussed.

If you haven't got it yet, I suggest you lay your mitts on a copy of Bob Brant & Seth Leitman's 'Build Your Own Electric Vehicle' (or the first edition by the same name). Both can be had on eBay for a few bucks second hand. It is the EV builder/converter's Bible.

For heating, you can always use slip-on heated seat covers that run off the car's 12VDC system and use relatively little power. As the electrical needs for an old-timer like the MG are relatively low, you should be OK with a 'standard' DC-DC converter.

I fear tho, that your main stumbling point is, as ever, range. I just don't think it is going to be practical (or possible, even) to get enough lead into the small space(s) available in a midget. I suspect most EVDL-ers are unaware of just how small we are talking here. Being as old as the oldest Midgets - and a Brit to boot - I am only too familiar with them.

So, either you get Lithium or you find a way to charge at work - or you are scuppered. Have you actually done a recce at work to see if there isn't <any> sort of plug available to use outside? You quite often find them next to externally mounted plant, like air-con units etc. If your parking is internal, there are usually sockets dotted about for cleaners etc to use.

If there is - and you would only need a standard 110VAC socket with your 12 hour charge opportunity - I can't imagine the hospital administrators would say "No" if you point out you'd only be using 50c worth of power a day, be happy to reimburse them, it's 'so Green' etc etc. The hospital could even get some free PR if they got the local rag to do a piece on it.

Failing that, maybe a local business within walking distance of your work would let you charge on their premises if you asked nicely? Again, they might have their arm twisted if you agreed to sport some advertising for them as an EV driver, highlighting their Green credentials. It may just be a question of 'ask and ye shall receive'!

Worth a try.

Best of luck anyway (and ditto with the job hunting  )

Regards, Martin Winlow
Herts, UK
http://www.evalbum.com/2092
www.winlow.co.uk




> Jessica Bussert wrote:
> 
> >
> > Wow... I would have never expected so much input in less
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

On Tue, Apr 24, 2012 at 8:38 AM, Martin WINLOW <[email protected]> w=
rote:
> I fear tho, that your main stumbling point is, as ever, range. I just =
don't think it is going to be practical (or possible, even) to get enough l=
ead into the small space(s) available in a midget.

Just to push outside the envelope a bit: would removing the passenger
seat provide enough additional room, or at that point would weight
become too great a factor?

n

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Martin,

My experience is that they will say no quite easily. I tried exactly what you describe a couple years ago. They don't want the liability. EVERYTHING plugged in has to go through inspection and approval by their engineering department.

To put it into perspective I had a small rechargeable device that I use in the hospital. Worked fine except the charging led indicator was out. I told them I would continue using it until they had time to repair it. Their response was that if the light was out it 'wasn't working' and would be out of service until they repaired it. Imagine trying to get a diy ev approved!

Barry

" I can't imagine the hospital administrators would say "No" if you point out you'd only be using 50c worth of power a day, be happy to reimburse them, it's 'so Green' etc etc. The hospital could even get some free PR if they got the local rag to do a piece on it."



Martin WINLOW <[email protected]> wrote:

Hi Jessica,

There's been a lot of comment on most of your points from others so I won't bore you with my spin on what has already been discussed.

If you haven't got it yet, I suggest you lay your mitts on a copy of Bob Brant & Seth Leitman's 'Build Your Own Electric Vehicle' (or the first edition by the same name). Both can be had on eBay for a few bucks second hand. It is the EV builder/converter's Bible.

For heating, you can always use slip-on heated seat covers that run off the car's 12VDC system and use relatively little power. As the electrical needs for an old-timer like the MG are relatively low, you should be OK with a 'standard' DC-DC converter.

I fear tho, that your main stumbling point is, as ever, range. I just don't think it is going to be practical (or possible, even) to get enough lead into the small space(s) available in a midget. I suspect most EVDL-ers are unaware of just how small we are talking here. Being as old as the oldest Midgets - and a Brit to boot - I am only too familiar with them.

So, either you get Lithium or you find a way to charge at work - or you are scuppered. Have you actually done a recce at work to see if there isn't <any> sort of plug available to use outside? You quite often find them next to externally mounted plant, like air-con units etc. If your parking is internal, there are usually sockets dotted about for cleaners etc to use.

If there is - and you would only need a standard 110VAC socket with your 12 hour charge opportunity - I can't imagine the hospital administrators would say "No" if you point out you'd only be using 50c worth of power a day, be happy to reimburse them, it's 'so Green' etc etc. The hospital could even get some free PR if they got the local rag to do a piece on it.

Failing that, maybe a local business within walking distance of your work would let you charge on their premises if you asked nicely? Again, they might have their arm twisted if you agreed to sport some advertising for them as an EV driver, highlighting their Green credentials. It may just be a question of 'ask and ye shall receive'!

Worth a try.

Best of luck anyway (and ditto with the job hunting  )

Regards, Martin Winlow
Herts, UK
http://www.evalbum.com/2092
www.winlow.co.uk




> Jessica Bussert wrote:
> 
> >
> > Wow... I would have never expected so much input in less
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

A little humor for your entertainment:


Hello,

My name is Jessica and I'm a gasoholic.

My story is probably pretty similar to the rest of
yours. My folks were gassers long before
me, and to be honest, so were their folks before them. I kinda grew up i=
n a culture of addiction, so
it really makes sense that I would have started pumping at an early age.=
Now that I think of it there were more than a
few times when my mom found her tank empty that she'd send me out to get he=
r fix
for her. My dad was no different. He used to show me all the tips and=
tricks I'd
need to know to help me burn it better. By
the time I got into my teens I was stealing my mom's rig and gassin' it wit=
h my
friends. Before long I got my own gear
and was pumping with the rest of the addicts.

You know, those pushers got me hooked young with their cheap
prices and all the gimmicks. "Hey
kid, pump this! It's -really- high
octane!" I can still remember that
high powered rush I used to get when I first started burning. That honey=
moon only lasted so long before
they started to turn the screws on me. These days they cut their product=
with corn syrup to the point that I
can barely get going in the morning. Not
only that, those bastards upped the prices to the point where I just feel l=
ike
I'm their slave. Basically, I'm working
for my next fix, and I need my next fix just to get to work and back. It=
's a vicious cycle and these days I'm
powerless without the pump.

Just the other day I was watching the news and getting sick
at the images of gangland violence in the gasser fields. People killing =
people just to try and insure
that their supply doesn't run out. And
the government corruption? Oh my gosh! It almost seems like the bigge=
st gasser
cartels own half the politicians! Those kingpins pay off our elected off=
icials to look the other way while they bring
boatloads of their product into our country. Worse still, they use our m=
ilitary as hired muscle to try and keep the whole
process running smoothly.

While I was watching the news and seeing yet another body
bag filled with some young soldier coming home for the last time, it occurr=
ed to
me that the whole ugly process was being fueled by me and my addiction. =
If I could stop burning, perhaps that might
mean just one less body bag. And if
everyone could just stop burning, perhaps that might stop all the body
bags! Maybe then we could all breathe
just a little easier.

So, I'm now standing before you today trying to get my life
back on the right road. I need to get
clean. I need to find a way to plug into
a higher power and recharge. But I can't
do it alone. I need your help to show me
the way. Please, help me break the cycle
of addiction and end my pumping habit. I
don't want to be a gasser all my life.

My name is Jessica and I'm a gasoholic.
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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Jessica Bussert wrote
> 
> My name is Jessica and I'm a gasoholic.
> 

Love it ... I think alot of people driving EVs are here to kick the habit. 
I had a huge fascination with Photovoltaics that I finally put on my home in
2010 - and had to get an EV to take advantage of the green energy.

Regarding your Midget, there is a really great site our IT director here at
my work shared with me:

http://www.electricmgmidget.com/

It's a very nice site with lots of information and details about a Midget
conversion. I guess the owner must have spent double(?) your budget. He
makes several references to how to keep the original fun driving
characteristics of the Midget as an electric ... which is why he had to go
lithium. I think because the car is so small lead might not even be an
option to get you to work (you can't even fit enough lead in it probably,
not to mention the suspension strain), especially in winter since lead
capacity sags so much in the cold (I experienced close to 50% drop in range
in my lead conversion this past winter).

Sounds like a fun project, good luck.

Dan

-----
Dan Gallagher
http://www.evalbum.com/3854

--
View this message in context: http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/Seeking-Conversion-Mentor-for-65-MG-Midget-tp4581254p4584111.html
Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Lee,

I know that some installations limit the power,
for example the Prius has a tiny pack so it
limits the regen power to about 15kW (50A 300V)
while the Leaf appears to limit to 80A, which is
probably about 25kW. As far as my experience with
the Prius - that is not enough to help much in an
emergency stop, but in all normal driving you can
plan ahead and perform most if not all normal
deceleration on regen alone.

Lead-acid AGM batteries actually like to be
charged with high current on occasion
"waking them up" so it was seen as beneficial
that the regen could send a high power burst into
the pack where the level 1 or even level 2
charging could not achieve the required current
into the 312V pack (I believe that the required
"wake up" current was >30A which means well over
10kW on a nominal 312V pack, typical charging
happened at currents between 4 and 10A at best.) 

Regards,

Cor van de Water
Chief Scientist
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
Email: [email protected] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water XoIP: +31877841130
Tel: +1 408 383 7626 Tel: +91 (040)23117400 x203 

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On
Behalf Of Lee Hart
Sent: Tuesday, April 24, 2012 8:10 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Seeking Conversion Mentor for '65 MG Midget



> Lee Hart wrote:
> >> [regen] rarely can provide much braking force when it is working.
> 
> Cor van de Water wrote:
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Hi Jessica and listers,
In light of your "confession" about being a 3rd generation oil addict, I was
wondering you had taken notice of Bob Lutz's recent article in Forbe's?
If not, here it is:

http://www.forbes.com/sites/boblutz/2012/04/15/a-real-oil-security-strategy-for-u-s-would-boost-electrification-of-transport-sector/


I also thought that this might be of interest to any who have been having
conversations with others in an effort to convince them of the importance
of transitioning to electric transportation.
I have long championed the movement as one of the most patriotic things
that a person could do. It is good to see that a couple of former military
leaders agree with this concept(they even put their name on the byline!).
For those who are not aware of who Bob Lutz is, he was the vice chairman at
General Murders (thanks you Bob Rice!), and one of the main supporters of
the original Volt concept car. You can find more about him by watching
"Revenge of the Electric Car", currently airing on PBS's Independent Lens
series.

-Tom True



> Jessica Bussert <[email protected]>wrote:
> 
> > A little humor for your entertainment:
> >
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> On 23 Apr 2012 at 22:56, Jessica Bussert wrote:
> 
> > First off, my budget is based on the expectation that I can save $200 a
> > month in gas if I switch to an EV. If I shoot for a 3 year ROI then I
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> On 24 Apr 2012 at 9:39, Danpatgal wrote:
> 
> > Regarding your Midget, there is a really great site our IT director here at my
> > work shared with me:
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> On 24 Apr 2012 at 11:10, Thos True wrote:
> 
> > I agree with Cor about the concept of opportunity charging. Any of us who have
> > been around for the past 15 or 20 years have done this. I have charged at
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> On 24 Apr 2012 at 11:55, Lee Hart wrote:
> 
> > I'd build my own "third world" transformer-rectifier charger and
> > battery management system, because all the cheap stuff is junk. That
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Lee Hart wrote:
> >> I'd build my own "third world" transformer-rectifier charger and
> >> battery management system, because all the cheap stuff is junk. That
> >> would get me on the road for $6000.
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> On 24 Apr 2012 at 16:56, Lee Hart wrote:
> 
> > David, I still haven't been able to view Mark's files via the link on the
> > EV archive link. Is is broken?
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Hi Rush,

I actually measure 250 wh/mile on my commute at the wall. So, my estimate
of 50 miles range is a little conservative. My normal commute is 25 miles,
so I usualy only drain 1/2 my pack. I have driven 46 miles twice, to see if
I could.

Mike

> -----Original Message-----
> From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On
> Behalf Of Rush
> Sent: Tuesday, April 24, 2012 2:24 AM
> To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Seeking Conversion Mentor for '65 MG Midget
> 
> Mike wrote -
> 
> > With my 13 kWh, I get about 50 miles range in a Honda del Sol.
> 
> So that works out to (13kWh/50miles) 260 kWh/mile.
> 
> How far down do you actually take your Thundersky's? 100Ah batteries?
> 
> Thanks
> Rush Dougherty
> www.TucsonEV.com
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
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_______________________________________________
| Moratorium on drag racing discussion is in effect.
| Please take those discussions elsewhere. Thanks.
|
| REPLYING: address your message to [email protected] only.
| Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
| UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
| OTHER HELP: http://evdl.org/help/
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