# Re: [EVDL] Jumpy Pots



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Jumpy Pots*

Hi Tom,

Yup, pot boxes will do that.
The bests solution is to change over to Hall effect ones, if your controller
supports it. I have yet to see one of those degrade at all. 

Matt

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf
Of soundboats
Sent: Tuesday, 29 September 2009 12:32 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: [EVDL] Jumpy Pots


Hello, I am trying to find out if anyone has had any luck in finding
potentiometers that do not degrade with heavy use. I have tried the Curtis
PB-6, a Chinese copy of the PB-6, and the Logisystem potboxes. All have
suffered from the same degradation over time and last no more than 6-8
months in heavy city and suburban driving (about 100 miles a week in stop
and go traffic). The Logisystems potbox lasted only 2 months, the Curtis
about 8 months, and the Chinese copy has been in for 6 months and showing
signs of degradation. 
Initially all the potentiometers have a steady increase in resistance with
the movement of the arm. However, the pots become progressively "jumpy,"
making driving difficult. I have measured the resistance and find that any
small movement of the arm makes the resistance go up much higher for second
and then come down to what it should be. For example, if I have the arm in
a position that provides 1000 Ohms of resistance and move it just a few
degrees the resistance jumps to 2500 Ohms before coming back down to 1200
Ohms. This type of jump occurs at any setting of the arm and is not related
to the controller. I have measured this jump when the pot boxes are
disconnected from the controller as well. 
So, I am trying to find out if there is a brand of potentiometers that do
not have this problem. I have found out that the resistance in these pots
is provided by a piecce of plastic, and I wonder if the plastic degrades
with use. Any help would be welcome.
Thanks,
Tom Hruby

--
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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Jumpy Pots*

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Jumpy Pots*

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Jumpy Pots*

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----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Jumpy Pots*

Out of curiosity, what is a PSA car?

Matt =


-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf
Of Evan Tuer
Sent: Tuesday, 29 September 2009 12:58 AM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Jumpy Pots



> Bob Rice <[email protected]> wrote:
> > Hi Tom and All;
> >
> > Here we go AGAIN! The #[email protected]%^& pots are a crappy way to run =
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Jumpy Pots*

Peugeot-Citroen (with double dot on the last e)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PSA_Group =



Cor van de Water
Director HW & Systems Architecture Group Proxim Wireless
Corporation http://www.proxim.com
Email: [email protected] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [email protected]
Tel: +1 408 383 7626 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Tel: +91 (040)23117400 x203 XoIP: +31877841130

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behal=
f Of Matt Lacey
Sent: Monday, September 28, 2009 11:14 PM
To: 'Electric Vehicle Discussion List'
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Jumpy Pots

Out of curiosity, what is a PSA car?

Matt =


-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behal=
f Of Evan Tuer
Sent: Tuesday, 29 September 2009 12:58 AM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Jumpy Pots



> Bob Rice <[email protected]> wrote:
> > Hi Tom and All;
> >
> > Here we go AGAIN! The #[email protected]%^& pots are a crappy way to run =
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Jumpy Pots*

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----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Jumpy Pots*

The conductive pots WILL last longer - auto OEMs use them for throttle 
position sensors (TPS). They're spec'd at 1 million cycles (5 million 
"dither" cycles) and run $30 to $50 or more.

Be sure to check the datasheets before ordering - MOST are guaranteed to 
be linear between 10% and 90% of the listed range. So a 5K pot may not go 
below 500 Ohms or above 4500 Ohms. The sample I tried goes down to 390 
Ohms. This may (or may not) cause your controller to always be a little 
bit ON. It may also trigger a "high pedal lockout" condition on your 
controller. YMMV.

HEPI pedals are awesome! I'm currently using them with Zilla controllers. 
I cut cone pedal off and am using it like a potbox with the original 
throttle cable. The other is a complete pedal mounted on the floorboard. 
Would be nice to disassemble the complete pedals and shove the guts in a 
standard PB-6 box...

-Adrian




> Evan Tuer wrote:
> 
> > All the PSA cars use a conductive plastic pot on the
> > throttle pedal. They do not wear out.
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Jumpy Pots*

Why not put a HE into a Curtis box... HE Pots are cheap enough, its just a
matter of finding one that has the right physical turning range...

http://search.digikey.com/scripts/DkSearch/dksus.dll?Cat=1967060&k=Hall%20ef
fect

Bob Sisson
1993 Geo Metro Convertible Project
Gaithersburg MD


_______________________________________________
General EVDL support: http://evdl.org/help/
Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
Archives: http://evdl.org/archive/
Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Jumpy Pots*

Geez, Bob -- why so *jumpy*?



> Bob Rice wrote:
> > Hi Tom and All;
> >
> > Here we go AGAIN! The #[email protected]%^& pots are a crappy way to run
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Jumpy Pots*

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----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Jumpy Pots*

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----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Jumpy Pots*

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----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Jumpy Pots*



> On 28 Sep 2009 at 15:25, Eric Poulsen wrote:
> 
> > You have the EV equivalent of "volume knob static" as seen in older
> > stereo equipment. We used to fix it with something called "Color TV
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Jumpy Pots*



> David Roden wrote:
> > On 28 Sep 2009 at 15:25, Eric Poulsen wrote:
> >
> >
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Jumpy Pots*



> soundboats wrote:
> > Hello, I am trying to find out if anyone has had any luck in finding
> > potentiometers that do not degrade with heavy use. I have tried the Curtis
> > PB-6, a Chinese copy of the PB-6, and the Logisystem potboxes. All have
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] jumpy Pots*

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----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Jumpy Pots*

> Hi Tom and All;
>
> Here we go AGAIN! The #[email protected]%^& pots are a crappy way to run
> controllers/cars! And since the manufacturers can't seem to find
> DECENT ones, or want to spend more than 29 cents for one, but they,
> like the rest of us ,WEAR out!They keep on beating dead horses! The
> Hall Effect setup(changing inductance, by throttle position) is
> Natures most perfect control; Magnetic fields simply DON'T wear
> out,period! Sorta like gravity! It NEVER lets up on us EVers! WHY the
> Hell hasn't controller builders haven't gone to OTHER than crappy
> pots, is beyond me? Let's go back to piston airliners and steam 20
> Century Limiteds? Feh! Had this argument with Peter Senkowsky about
> rebuilding Rapture Controllers. MINE that he did for me, uses a Hall
> Effect(it LOOKS like a solnoid) and works GREAT! Later he went BACK to
> a Pot box, on Dave O.'s Ranger, a step backward? EVery damn Radio in
> my house scrapes and scratches on the volume control! I know I'm
> SUPPOSED to throw radios away every 2 years, but STILL?
>
> Not an EE here, WHY is it harder to set up a controller to do Hall
> Effect RATHER than a Pot Box??Maybe it's a more difficult design?
> Maybe somebody that knows this stuff could chime in? Lee? Got yur ears
> on? Or answer this guyz question in the first place,m before I went
> into Rant mode?
>
> Seeya
>
> Bob 
At least in industrial machines, they use "contactless" pots to measure
the position of swashplates in hydraulic pumps and such. They are
probably more expensive than the hall setup but you wouldn't have to
change the controller. I had a good source for suspension monitoring,
but that was years ago.
Something like this? http://www.murata.com/catalog/s30e1.pdf

Some are optical and some are magnetic, they just include a board in
them to simulate a resistor. More often called rotary position sensor.

Would something like this work? or is the voltage output not
appropriate. It depends on how the controller reads the pot :-(
http://delphi.com/manufacturers/auto/sensors/chassis/noncontact/

_______________________________________________
General EVDL support: http://evdl.org/help/
Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
Archives: http://evdl.org/archive/
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----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Jumpy Pots*

Eric and others - thanks for all your input. It has has been a very
interesting discussion. I believe that the current pots (PB-6, their
replacements and the Honeywell ones) are made with a plastic resistive
element. This is what I was able to find in researching the issue. So, I
would steer away from using the TV cleaners. 

I will explore some of the options suggested:
1. check out pots from fork lifts
2. check out throttle position sensors from autos
3. find out if the Logisystem controller I have can be run with a Hall
effect sensor
4. Check out cleaning the pots with Cramolin red. I still have my two old
pots that have gone bad, so cleaning one and checking it is no extra cost
for me. 

Tom Hruby



> Eric Poulsen wrote:
> >
> > David Roden wrote:
> >> On 28 Sep 2009 at 15:25,
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Jumpy Pots*

One issue is that the ROTARY MOTION of the BP-6 pots is not normal. Many
"Standard" pots have a 270deg turn from stop to stop... the Curtis PB-6 Pot
has a different range... Substituting a pot with more or less motion will
either cause a very touch throttle (what we are trying to get rid of) or a
throttle that can't reach FULL....

Does anyone know what the rotary motion of the Curtis is? Many of the HE
and rotary sensors can be ordered with different mechanical ranges, you just
need to know what to order...

Bob Sisson
1993 Geo Metro Convertible Project
Gaithersburg MD


_______________________________________________
General EVDL support: http://evdl.org/help/
Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
Archives: http://evdl.org/archive/
Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Jumpy Pots*

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----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Jumpy Pots*

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ClN1YnNjcmlwdGlvbiBvcHRpb25zOiBodHRwOi8vbGlzdHMuc2pzdS5lZHUvbWFpbG1hbi9saXN0
aW5mby9ldgoK


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Jumpy Pots*



> Tom Parker wrote:
> soundboats wrote:
> >> I am trying to find out if anyone has had any luck in finding
> >> potentiometers that do not degrade with heavy use. I have tried the Curtis
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Jumpy Pots*

Does anyone have experience with the Kelly throttle? See
http://www.newkellycontroller.com/product_info.php?products_id=3D132 . It =
is
available 0-5k ohms or 0-5V. It is a modular unit with pedal and goes full
range in 36 degrees. It looks weatherproof and I am planning to use one on
my lawn tractor conversion.
Stephen Chapman



> soundboats <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> >
> > Bob,
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] jumpy Pots*



> Electric Blue auto convertions wrote:
> > I have only had 3 pots go bad so far and they were with in the first
> > year. NOW if you see what Fork lifts use, the same thing only built
> > much better and are still 5K ohm they last forever, BUT if you call
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] jumpy Pots*

Thank You, Lee!

A great no BS answer! JUST ordered TWO ,to reserect the pot boxes I have 
kicking around with bum pots! 25k service factor SHOULD lastawile in my 
Electrac AND car!Well, the Sentra I sold, with a Curtis, I'll KNOW he'll be 
needing a pot, too? I like 8 bux, better than 50-70 anyhow!

Seeya

Bob
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Lee Hart" <[email protected]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, September 29, 2009 12:03 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] jumpy Pots




> > Electric Blue auto convertions wrote:
> >> I have only had 3 pots go bad so far and they were with in the first
> >> year. NOW if you see what Fork lifts use, the same thing only built
> >> much better and are still 5K ohm they last forever, BUT if you call
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Jumpy Pots*

When you say 75deg, is that 75 real, as in less than 1/4 turn, or is it 75deg which is really 150deg or a bit less than 1/2 turn?

I have been able to find a few 90deg HE pots, and a few more 150deg...

I was also able to find a 90deg SEALED, IP rated, molded connector thingy that looked interesting... but I get concerned when they start saying electrical vs mechanical movement, etc...

Bob Sisson
1993 Geo Metro Convertible Project
Gaithersburg MD



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----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] jumpy Pots*

T24gVHVlLCBTZXAgMjksIDIwMDkgYXQgNTozMSBQTSwgQm9iIFJpY2UgPGJvYnJpY2VAc25ldC5u
ZXQ+IHdyb3RlOgo+IMKgVGhhbmsgWW91LCBMZWUhCj4KPiDCoCBBIGdyZWF0IG5vIEJTIGFuc3dl
ciEgSlVTVCBvcmRlcmVkIFRXTyAsdG8gcmVzZXJlY3QgdGhlIHBvdCBib3hlcyBJIGhhdmUKPiBr
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b3VyIHRpbWUKd29ydGgsIHN3YXBwaW5nIGl0IG91dCBldmVyeSBmZXcgeWVhcnM/CgpfX19fX19f
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cG9ydDogaHR0cDovL2V2ZGwub3JnL2hlbHAvClVzYWdlIGd1aWRlbGluZXM6IGh0dHA6Ly9ldmRs
Lm9yZy9oZWxwL2luZGV4Lmh0bWwjY29udgpBcmNoaXZlczogaHR0cDovL2V2ZGwub3JnL2FyY2hp
dmUvClN1YnNjcmlwdGlvbiBvcHRpb25zOiBodHRwOi8vbGlzdHMuc2pzdS5lZHUvbWFpbG1hbi9s
aXN0aW5mby9ldgoK


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] jumpy Pots*



> Bob Rice wrote:
> > Thank You, Lee!
> >
> > A great no BS answer! JUST ordered TWO ,to reserect the pot boxes I have
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Jumpy Pots*

I have never put it in a sealed box, just mounted it up high in the engine 
bay - and never had problems with them. And this is mostly in the wet 
Pacific NW. They are fairly well sealed, I think, for casual road 
spray/dirt.

Joseph H. Strubhar

Web: www.gremcoinc.com

E-mail: [email protected]


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Ben" <[email protected]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, September 29, 2009 7:31 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Jumpy Pots


>


> soundboats <[email protected]> wrote:
> >>
> >> I will explore some of the options suggested:
> >> 1. check out pots from fork lifts
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] jumpy Pots*

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Willie McKemie" <[email protected]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]du>
Sent: Tuesday, September 29, 2009 12:53 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] jumpy Pots


>


> Bob Rice wrote:
> >> Thank You, Lee!
> >>
> >> A great no BS answer! JUST ordered TWO ,to reserect the pot boxes I
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Jumpy Pots*

How about a vane with a variable width slot cut in it, an LED, and an LDR? 
Jut put it in a lightproof, dustproof box. Tweak the slot to get the taper 
you like.

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
EVDL Information: http://www.evdl.org/help/
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = 
Note: mail sent to "evpost" or "etpost" addresses will not 
reach me. To send a private message, please obtain my 
email address from the webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ .
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =


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Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
Archives: http://evdl.org/archive/
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----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] jumpy Pots*

Evan Tuer wrote:
>


> Bob Rice <[email protected]> wrote:
> >> Thank You, Lee!
> >>
> >> A great no BS answer! JUST ordered TWO ,to reserect the pot boxes I have
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] jumpy Pots*

From: "Willie McKemie"
> 25K sounded kinda minimal to me. Isn't that one for each throttle
> movement? Might that be around ten per mile? 2500 miles?

I don't know. I suspect that spec is pretty conservative. I've had one 
in my EV for 10 years now without it failing. The original Curtis pot 
lasted 1 year.

-- 
Lee A. Hart | Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave N | Forget the perfect offering
Sartell MN 56377	| There is a crack in everything
leeahart earthlink.net	| That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen

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Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
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----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Jumpy Pots*

> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "David Roden" <[email protected]>
> To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Jumpy Pots
> Date: Tue, 29 Sep 2009 14:29:37 -0400
> 
> 
> How about a vane with a variable width slot cut in it, an LED, and an LDR?
> Jut put it in a lightproof, dustproof box. Tweak the slot to get the taper
> you like.
> 
> David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
> EVDL Administrator
> 
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
David, I liked your approach, but I cannot locate a LDR
that goes down near zero ohms. 

The real cure will take an 
adapter board specifically designed for each controller 
"Pot input" to interface with a long lived sensor 
technology Manufactured in long lived materials for a 
retail price under $8.95. (;o> (That is Lee's cost for a 
replacement high quality pot.) 

So, lets ask the controller manufacturers to "Dump the pot! 
and use another control sensor system. 

I have always felt the "throttle" sensor should be 
inside the cabin, above the petal. 

And the controller inside the firewall behind the 
glove box in a box/duct with forced air cooling dumped 
outside by duct except when needed to warm/dry the 
inside of the windshield, when it is directed to the 
defroster ducts. (Why "Waste" the heat?) 

With High Regards,

Dennis Miles, (Director)
Electric Vehicle Training Institute 
in Central Florida


-- 
An Excellent Credit Score is 750 
See Yours in Just 2 Easy Steps!


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----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Jumpy Pots*

Let the LDR be the bottom resistor of a divider on the gate of a FET.

Regards,

Cor van de Water
Director HW & Systems Architecture Group Proxim Wireless
Corporation http://www.proxim.com
Email: [email protected] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [email protected]
Tel: +1 408 383 7626 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Tel: +91 (040)23117400 x203 XoIP: +31877841130

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On
Behalf Of Dennis Miles
Sent: Wednesday, September 30, 2009 5:14 AM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Jumpy Pots


> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "David Roden" <[email protected]>
> To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Jumpy Pots
> Date: Tue, 29 Sep 2009 14:29:37 -0400
> 
> 
> How about a vane with a variable width slot cut in it, an LED, and an
LDR?
> Jut put it in a lightproof, dustproof box. Tweak the slot to get the 
> taper you like.
> 
> David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
> EVDL Administrator
> 
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
David, I liked your approach, but I cannot locate a LDR that goes
down near zero ohms. 

The real cure will take an
adapter board specifically designed for each controller "Pot input" to
interface with a long lived sensor technology Manufactured in long lived
materials for a retail price under $8.95. (;o> (That is Lee's cost for
a replacement high quality pot.) 

So, lets ask the controller manufacturers to "Dump the pot! 
and use another control sensor system. 

I have always felt the "throttle" sensor should be inside the cabin,
above the petal. 

And the controller inside the firewall behind the glove box in a
box/duct with forced air cooling dumped outside by duct except when
needed to warm/dry the inside of the windshield, when it is directed to
the defroster ducts. (Why "Waste" the heat?) 

With High Regards,

Dennis Miles, (Director)
Electric Vehicle Training Institute 
in Central Florida


--
An Excellent Credit Score is 750
See Yours in Just 2 Easy Steps!


_______________________________________________
General EVDL support: http://evdl.org/help/ Usage guidelines:
http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
Archives: http://evdl.org/archive/
Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev


_______________________________________________
General EVDL support: http://evdl.org/help/
Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
Archives: http://evdl.org/archive/
Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Jumpy Pots*

>> How about a vane with a variable width slot cut in it, an LED, and an LDR?
>> Jut put it in a lightproof, dustproof box. Tweak the slot to get the taper
>> you like.
>>
>> David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
>> EVDL Administrator
>>
>> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =


> Dennis Miles wrote:
> > David, I liked your approach, but I cannot locate a LDR
> > that goes down near zero ohms.
> 
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Jumpy Pots*



> Cor van de Water wrote:
> > Let the LDR be the bottom resistor of a divider on the gate of a FET.
> 
> I think you'd have trouble with variations between parts, and due to
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Jumpy Pots*

> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Lee Hart" <[email protected]>
> 
> The key is to use good quality parts, no matter what technology it
> happens to be!
> 
> > And the controller inside the firewall behind the glove box in a 
> > box/duct with forced air cooling dumped outside by duct except 
> > when needed to warm/dry the inside of the windshield, when it is 
> > directed to the defroster ducts. (Why "Waste" the heat?)
> 
> The controller is never hot enough (or *shouldn't be hot enough) to
> serve as a heater or defroster. About the best you could do is use it as
> a preheater for cabin air, followed by your regular heater.
>
That is dependent upon climate, here in the Tampa Bay Area, only a small 
amount of heat is needed, in fact some EV builders just use cabin air as a
de-fogger, with no heat at all! Happily, we do not all live in Minnesota.
(;> Dennis
> --
> Lee A. Hart | Ring the bells that still can ring
> 814 8th Ave N | Forget the perfect offering
> Sartell MN 56377	| There is a crack in everything
> leeahart earthlink.net	| That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
> 
> 


-- 
An Excellent Credit Score is 750 
See Yours in Just 2 Easy Steps!


_______________________________________________
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Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
Archives: http://evdl.org/archive/
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----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Jumpy Pots*

In cases where the TPS is actually used to directly control the throttle 
(throttle by wire) as is done on some new european cars, they use paired 
hall effect sensors 90 degrees out of phase, If the 2 sensors don't 
agree to within some small error margin the controller will lock out and 
the car won't start.

In a "safety critical" situation like an accelerator pedal, having a 
single point of failure like a 25 cent pot that is known to also be 
unreliable and fail in unpredictable ways is not acceptable.

Its only got to jump once in a car park and squish some kid and your 
going to have a bad day, I know you have kill switches and the like but 
its all a bit late.

With some electronics you could get the 0-5k equivalent readout that the 
Curtis wants from a twin hall sensor mounted to the accelerators point 
of rotation, or worst case a separate cable box inside the cab.
serial that data to another highly robust micro at the Curtis to feed it 
the 0-5k, that way the long communications run is digital and won't pick 
up noise from motors etc, If the comms line starts to fail the 
accelerator box starts buzzing, If there is a complete failure the 
remote station commands 0 output to the Curtis and also starts bitching 
at you.

I was looking at making a similar system, "throttle by wire" for gokarts 
to comply with some law changes here (Australia) what level of interest 
is there in this as a product for cars?

Probably looking in the $150-200 range for the complete assembly with 
the dual hall sensors, programmable (multi point) throttle curve, 
calibration etc.




> Cor van de Water wrote:
> > Let the LDR be the bottom resistor of a divider on the gate of a FET.
> >
> > Regards,
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] jumpy Pots*

This thread has me curious... I just bought a replacement potentiometer 
for my truck. I haven't had any problems but I wanted to find a good 
replacement part for a friend, so I tried a Honeywell/Clarostat from 
Mouser. So far so good, but what surprised me was the potentiometer I 
replaced was also a Clarostat. Did Curtis use this brand or did someone 
replace it before I bought the truck ten years ago? I never had any 
problems with it, so it seems like a good quality component.

Nick





> Lee Hart wrote:
> > Electric Blue auto convertions wrote:
> >> I have only had 3 pots go bad so far and they were with in the first
> >> year. NOW if you see what Fork lifts use, the same thing only built
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] jumpy Pots*



> Nick wrote:
> > This thread has me curious... I just bought a replacement potentiometer
> > for my truck. I haven't had any problems but I wanted to find a good
> > replacement part for a friend, so I tried a Honeywell/Clarostat from
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Jumpy Pots*

soundboats wrote -

> Small cars may have a
> problem in using the Logisystems pot box because the travel in the 
> throttle
> cable is too short to accommodate an 110 degree range.

Change the length of the throw by changing the geometry, add a pulley and 
experiment with the pot/pulley/pedal distance to get the correct length.

Rush
Tucson AZ 

_______________________________________________
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----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] jumpy Pots*

The MIL spec pots sound interesting, but I should put out a word of caution. 
The Logisystems pot was supposed to have been one of the MIL spec ones but
it failed in 2 months. The other point is to make sure you buy a pot with a
linear response. The Logisystem pot had the logarithmic response and that
proved very difficult for driving in the city. I had to depress my pedal
almost half-way to get started and then the acceleration was too fast. 
Tom Hruby



Lee Hart wrote:
> 
> Evan Tuer wrote:
>>


> Bob Rice <[email protected]> wrote:
> >>> Thank You, Lee!
> >>>
> >>> A great no BS answer! JUST ordered TWO ,to reserect the pot boxes I
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] jumpy Pots*



> soundboats wrote:
> > The MIL spec pots sound interesting, but I should put out a word of
> > caution. The Logisystems pot was supposed to have been one of the MIL
> > spec ones but it failed in 2 months. The other point is to make sure
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] jumpy Pots*

Lee, 
The Curtis box I have has a 75 degree rotation. It must be one of the older
ones. The Chinese copy of the Curtis has an 80 degree rotation. 
Tom 





> Lee Hart wrote:
> >
> > soundboats wrote:
> >> The MIL spec pots sound interesting, but I should put out a word of
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] jumpy Pots*



> soundboats wrote:
> > Lee,
> > The Curtis box I have has a 75 degree rotation. It must be one of the older
> > ones. The Chinese copy of the Curtis has an 80 degree rotation.
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] jumpy Pots*



> On 30 Sep 2009 at 10:59, Lee Hart wrote:
> 
> > But the newer Curtises have a 45 deg. rotation.
> >
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Jumpy Pots*

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----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Jumpy Pots*

You cannot put pack (120V) voltage on a 5k pot as it will
burn up from the power dissipated in it.
Though I would expect that they typically use 12V to get
the reading from the throttle pot - or if the pack is
below 48V they may still use that directly... 

Regards,

Cor van de Water
Director HW & Systems Architecture Group Proxim Wireless
Corporation http://www.proxim.com
Email: [email protected] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [email protected]
Tel: +1 408 383 7626 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Tel: +91 (040)23117400 x203 XoIP: +31877841130

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On
Behalf Of soundboats
Sent: Thursday, October 01, 2009 1:27 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Jumpy Pots


Hello everyone who responded.
I am starting a new thread on this subject since it is getting very
confusing to follow who said what.
So I thought I would summarize some of the information I have gleaned
from this discussion and put it all in one place, and of course leave
you with more questions. 

1. The basic problem seems to be that the standard potentiometers are
getting contaminated with dust or other debris, and sealing the box
would probably prevent the degradation. I will try this first since I
have replaced the potentiometer in the PB-6 box I have with one I
purchased from EVParts.

2. It might be possible to find a MIL spec pot (either carbon or plastic
based)that is sealed and meets the the resistance and "travel"
requirements for my throttle. These are rated at 25,000 cycles which
however does not really meet my needs. I did a simple calculation on my
lunch break and found that I cycle the throttle/pot about 10 times per
mile in the city driving I do. This means the pot would be rated for
only 2500 miles or about 8 months of my driving. 

3. It is possible to find a pot from a electric fork lift that is rated
much higher, but it costs about $75. I have not tried to do this yet.

4. Some of you have suggest Hall effect potentiometers. I looked into
them but found that they are rated only for 4-5 volts inputs. I believe
both the Curtis and Logisystem controllers put out the full battery pack
voltage to the pot (120 volts in my case). Only the Kelly's put out 5
volts to the pot. 
If anyone out there knows more about this please let us all know!!! It
would be interesting to try a Hall effect pot. 

Tom Hruby




> soundboats wrote:
> >
> > Hello, I am trying to find out if anyone has had any luck in finding
> > potentiometers that do not degrade with heavy use. I have tried the
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Jumpy Pots*

Smoking pot again, eh.


You cannot put pack (120V) voltage on a 5k pot as it will
burn up from the power dissipated in it.
Though I would expect that they typically use 12V to get
the reading from the throttle pot - or if the pack is
below 48V they may still use that directly... 

Regards,

Cor van de Water


_______________________________________________
General EVDL support: http://evdl.org/help/
Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
Archives: http://evdl.org/archive/
Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Jumpy Pots*

Years ago I needed to retrofit a large analog system that had several potentiometers with a programmer to emulate different pot settings. I experimented with photoresistor/LED combinations in heat shrink housings piggybacked on the pots, but these were not very repeatable. Not only that, the photoresistors (from Radio Shack) tended to have light-history memory. What I ended up using were Vactecs:

http://users.rcn.com/oakridge.ma.ultranet/Products/Vactrol.html

These were very repeatable and predictable, and surprisingly fast. Of course for a pedal application, you would most likely drive the lamp with a voltage from a pot, which just brings us back to the original problem. However, I would think such a setup would nicely filter out scratchiness.

Best Regards,

- Gene



-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On
Behalf Of soundboats
Sent: Thursday, October 01, 2009 1:27 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Jumpy Pots


Hello everyone who responded.
I am starting a new thread on this subject since it is getting very
confusing to follow who said what.
So I thought I would summarize some of the information I have gleaned
from this discussion and put it all in one place, and of course leave
you with more questions. 

1. The basic problem seems to be that the standard potentiometers are
getting contaminated with dust or other debris, and sealing the box
would probably prevent the degradation. I will try this first since I
have replaced the potentiometer in the PB-6 box I have with one I
purchased from EVParts.

2. It might be possible to find a MIL spec pot (either carbon or plastic
based)that is sealed and meets the the resistance and "travel"
requirements for my throttle. These are rated at 25,000 cycles which
however does not really meet my needs. I did a simple calculation on my
lunch break and found that I cycle the throttle/pot about 10 times per
mile in the city driving I do. This means the pot would be rated for
only 2500 miles or about 8 months of my driving. 

3. It is possible to find a pot from a electric fork lift that is rated
much higher, but it costs about $75. I have not tried to do this yet.

4. Some of you have suggest Hall effect potentiometers. I looked into
them but found that they are rated only for 4-5 volts inputs. I believe
both the Curtis and Logisystem controllers put out the full battery pack
voltage to the pot (120 volts in my case). Only the Kelly's put out 5
volts to the pot. 
If anyone out there knows more about this please let us all know!!! It
would be interesting to try a Hall effect pot. 

Tom Hruby


_______________________________________________
General EVDL support: http://evdl.org/help/
Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
Archives: http://evdl.org/archive/
Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Jumpy Pots*



> On 30 Sep 2009 at 16:24, Gene Stopp wrote:
> 
> > What I ended up using were Vactecs:
> >
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Jumpy Pots*



> soundboats wrote:
> > 1. The basic problem seems to be that the standard potentiometers are
> > getting contaminated with dust or other debris, and sealing the box would
> > probably prevent the degradation. I will try this first since I have
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Jumpy Pots*

I have the impression that with the pedal pot driving a Vactec
you are using too many parts and still have the problem of the
"worn through spot" on the pedal pot where you spend most of
the time (unless you are one of the ON/OFF type drivers)
Anyhow, the incandescent lamp and CdS setup is exactly what
is needed - plus a moving vane in between, so that the light
from the lamp can be extinguished by the vane and the value
of the CdS cell controlled from min to max resistance.
Looking at the Vactrol VTLA37 resistance/time graph I see
that it reaches less than 200 and over 10kOhm within 100ms
after application of Full on/off lamp brightness, so I would
venture a guess that adding a vane in between might increase
the ON resistance slightly (more distance between lamp/cell)
but we only need to be <500 Ohm for a throttle pot.
To limit the max resistance simply add a fixed 4.7kOhm in
parallel to the CdS cell, however it may be preferable to
never allow the vane to completely block the light and keep
the CdS below 5kOhm with the remaining lamp light, so that
if the lamp dies (or the CdS cell) then the resistance is
above 5k and the controller will fault, instead of possibly
going full throttle. (depending if 5k is low or high throttle)

So, this brings us back to a suggestion already made before...
NOTE that the vane and the Vactec (or discrete lamp + CdS cell)
must be shielded from ambient light, otherwise you will only
be able to drive at night!
I think I have seen this type of control in some instruments
in the past, I think it was in some old electronic organs and
in sewing machine foot pedals in conjunction with a TRIAC.

Cor van de Water
Director HW & Systems Architecture Group Proxim Wireless
Corporation http://www.proxim.com
Email: [email protected] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [email protected]
Tel: +1 408 383 7626 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Tel: +91 (040)23117400 x203 XoIP: +31877841130

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On
Behalf Of Gene Stopp
Sent: Thursday, October 01, 2009 4:54 AM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Jumpy Pots

Years ago I needed to retrofit a large analog system that had several
potentiometers with a programmer to emulate different pot settings. I
experimented with photoresistor/LED combinations in heat shrink housings
piggybacked on the pots, but these were not very repeatable. Not only
that, the photoresistors (from Radio Shack) tended to have light-history
memory. What I ended up using were Vactecs:

http://users.rcn.com/oakridge.ma.ultranet/Products/Vactrol.html

These were very repeatable and predictable, and surprisingly fast. Of
course for a pedal application, you would most likely drive the lamp
with a voltage from a pot, which just brings us back to the original
problem. However, I would think such a setup would nicely filter out
scratchiness.

Best Regards,

- Gene



-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On
Behalf Of soundboats
Sent: Thursday, October 01, 2009 1:27 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Jumpy Pots


Hello everyone who responded.
I am starting a new thread on this subject since it is getting very
confusing to follow who said what.
So I thought I would summarize some of the information I have gleaned
from this discussion and put it all in one place, and of course leave
you with more questions. 

1. The basic problem seems to be that the standard potentiometers are
getting contaminated with dust or other debris, and sealing the box
would probably prevent the degradation. I will try this first since I
have replaced the potentiometer in the PB-6 box I have with one I
purchased from EVParts.

2. It might be possible to find a MIL spec pot (either carbon or plastic
based)that is sealed and meets the the resistance and "travel"
requirements for my throttle. These are rated at 25,000 cycles which
however does not really meet my needs. I did a simple calculation on my
lunch break and found that I cycle the throttle/pot about 10 times per
mile in the city driving I do. This means the pot would be rated for
only 2500 miles or about 8 months of my driving. 

3. It is possible to find a pot from a electric fork lift that is rated
much higher, but it costs about $75. I have not tried to do this yet.

4. Some of you have suggest Hall effect potentiometers. I looked into
them but found that they are rated only for 4-5 volts inputs. I believe
both the Curtis and Logisystem controllers put out the full battery pack
voltage to the pot (120 volts in my case). Only the Kelly's put out 5
volts to the pot. 
If anyone out there knows more about this please let us all know!!! It
would be interesting to try a Hall effect pot. 

Tom Hruby


_______________________________________________
General EVDL support: http://evdl.org/help/ Usage guidelines:
http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
Archives: http://evdl.org/archive/
Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev


_______________________________________________
General EVDL support: http://evdl.org/help/
Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
Archives: http://evdl.org/archive/
Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Jumpy Pots*

This post by Tom exactly describes the symptoms my PB6 is displaying. It
started a few weeks ago and is getting worse. The car has about 8 months on
it, same as when Tom's started acting up. Anyone found a better solution
than the PB6? The controller is a Curtis 1238-7501.
-- 
View this message in context: http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/Jumpy-Pots-tp462965p2334529.html
Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

_______________________________________________
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----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Jumpy Pots*

I've recently had a problem in my conversion which I thought might be jumpy
pots also. It turns out (I think) that it was a symptom of the 12V battery
dying. Since that battery keeps the contactor closed, things could
obviously get weird when it was starting to be at a threshold voltage.
After dropping further, the 12V battery got to the point it wouldn't keep
the contactor open and the car stopped.

The conversion had previously been using a separate 12V charger that I think
has died. It is now time to bump up the DC-DC converter installation in
priority.

My symptom was a surging and jerking under acceleration. Now, I think it
was because the contactor was briefly cutting out.

Mike

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf
Of tomw
Sent: Sunday, August 22, 2010 7:21 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Jumpy Pots


This post by Tom exactly describes the symptoms my PB6 is displaying. It
started a few weeks ago and is getting worse. The car has about 8 months on
it, same as when Tom's started acting up. Anyone found a better solution
than the PB6? The controller is a Curtis 1238-7501.
--
View this message in context:
http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/Jumpy-Pots-tp46
2965p2334529.html
Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at
Nabble.com.

_______________________________________________
| REPLYING: address your message to [email protected] only.
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----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Jumpy Pots*

Thanks Wistar, I will see if I can get a replacement. Thanks also to Bill
and Mike. I will keep those possibilities in mind. I found that EVWorks
offers a Hall Effect throttle that is a bolt in replacement for the PB6. It
appears this would work for my car as I can reprogram the controller to use
this "type 2" throttle. I also found a Honeywell/Clarion industrial pot
(#380C325K) at Digikey with 100,000 cycle rotational life. It is a 312
degree pot, and my PB6 looks to be about 45 degree. A 25k version would
then give about 3.6V max voltage, and the max voltage setpoint in the
controller software currently is 3.5V, so that seems about right. The Hall
Effect is a better long term solution, and it appears I can do it with
existing wiring in the harness, just switching connection on one wire to get
a ground, and adding in a 5V regulator at the throttle pot powered off the
12V to the microswitch. Some details to work out though, like current
requirements.
-- 
View this message in context: http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/Jumpy-Pots-tp462965p2335922.html
Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

_______________________________________________
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| Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
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| OTHER HELP: http://evdl.org/help/
| OPTIONS: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Jumpy Pots*

Hello to another Tom,

Sorry to be so late in responding, but I just got back from vacation. 

I found that the Chinese copy of the PB-6 that is available from several
vendors has worked out better than the PB-6. I also tried the
replacement pot that is sold by EV-parts, but that proved to be bad from
the beginning. The discussion around my first comments suggested that
the issue was dirt getting into the box. I taped my Chinese copy around
all the open edges and that seems to have improved the situation. My
Chinese copy has now been installed for over a year without any
problems. However, I do suspect that it may go soon. It is showing
some instability when the outside temperature goes above 90 degrees. 



My Logisystems controller blew out for the second time and so I am now
switching and will try the NetGain controller that has the Hall effect
throttle. I hope that works out better. 



Tom 



From: tomw [via Electric Vehicle Discussion List]
[mailto:[email protected]] 
Sent: Sunday, August 22, 2010 6:21 PM
To: Hruby, Tom (ECY)
Subject: Re: Jumpy Pots



This post by Tom exactly describes the symptoms my PB6 is displaying.
It started a few weeks ago and is getting worse. The car has about 8
months on it, same as when Tom's started acting up. Anyone found a
better solution than the PB6? The controller is a Curtis 1238-7501. 

________________________________

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Jumpy Pots*

My third pot from Kelly is now failing. It's an enclosed foot pedal and the
pot is a sealed Hoss WDJ 22 and doesn't feel like a cheapo, but three of
them have failed within less than a month each. The spec sheet I found
seems to show values of rotation from 20K to 100K cycles, but that's not
much in automotive use considering how often a throttle is moved during a
drive. Automotive pots seem to list millions of cycles, I just can't seem
to find one with a male shaft that will fit inside the Kelly pedal assembly.




> Tom H wrote:
> >
> > Hello to another Tom,
> >
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Jumpy Pots*

Hi Tom,

Yes, I've heard dust suspected as the cause, but mine is inside an aluminum
box, and the inside of the box appears clean. Could still be the cause if
it only takes a very small amount of dust I suppose. I can install the
EVWorks Hall throttle fairly easily it turns out. The controller has 5V and
ground outputs as well as the throttle input. I just have to switch two
wires and add one. The throttle pot will mount right in place of the PB6. 
That way I shouldn't have to replace the throttle every year or two. As
JRP3 says even 100k cycles isn't all that much considering all the small
adjustments you are continuously making with the throttle for grade
changes, slowing/speeding up in traffic, changing speed limits,
stopping/starting... I do a lot of driving at about the same speed so that
part of the throttle gets a lot of use, and that is where the throttle is
jumpy. I should receive the Hall throttle in a few days or so.
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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Jumpy Pots*

Has anybody ever tried one of these arcade game controllers?

http://www.happcontrols.com/driving/50819400.htm

I'm considering getting it for my electric rider mower. The price is mighty 
reasonable, and one would hope that a pedal made for arcade use would be 
pretty durable.

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
EVDL Information: http://www.evdl.org/help/
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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Jumpy Pots*

*David, That is a difficult question to answer. Back in 1979, I was a video
game service tech. for Champeen (sic) Electronics and we repaired the big
consoles 6 ft tall, 2 ft wide, and 3 ft deep in a big plywood box. I built
one into a special case to hold a 60 in. monitor that was the "Showcase " of
the Arcade who bought it. Funny because it only ran "Asteroids" a monochrome
game. To your point the only pedals that lasted had a small incandescent
lamp running on 2/3 of rated voltage for longer life and a CdS photo cell
that provided varying resistance as light level changed, and a wire link
moved a moving vane between the lamp and the CdS cell as the pedal was
pressed about 2 inches the vane moved 1/4 inch These lasted for ever.
Everything else wore out after two years or less, I know, I replaced pots
and micro-switches constantly. My dream EV would use a slotted vane moving
between two led and two photo transistor and a up/down counter like a mouse
to drive a D to A conversion ladder that would be cheep and have no wear
parts. And more linear than a hall effect device. add a third led and photo
transistor to kick the counter to zero when the pedal is all the way up for
calibration.
Regards,
Dennis Lee Miles (Director) E.V.T.I. inc.
www.E-V-T-I-Inc.COM (Adviser) EVTI-EVA Education Chapter
Phone (863) 944 - 9913*
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


> EVDL Administrator <[email protected]>wrote:
> 
> > Has anybody ever tried one of these arcade game controllers?
> >
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] jumpy Pots*

OK, found the old thread with the pot suggestion from Lee,
besides the obvious to go to pick-n-pull and get a TPS
(Throttle Position Sensor) from one of the cars that has
drive by wire (which is essentially all modern cars).
My car also accepts a 0 to 3.5V input instead of the
accelerator potmeter, so I can make things work even if they
are not 0-5kOhm...

I noticed an old request from someone to convert a 0 - 5V
signal to a 0 - 5kOhm resistance. That should be simple and
only require an opamp and two identical MOSFETs. Send a
fixed 1mA current through one and compare with the input
voltage. The other represents the 0 - 5kOhm output based on
the 0-5V input.
In case it needs to be 5k - 0 or other conversions
(for example from a too sensitive linear pot to logarithmic,
which will allow smooth take-off) then that is possible also.

Cor van de Water
Chief Scientist
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
Email: [email protected] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water XoIP: +31877841130
Tel: +1 408 383 7626 Tel: +91 (040)23117400 x203 

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On
Behalf Of Lee Hart
Sent: Tuesday, September 29, 2009 9:04 AM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] jumpy Pots



> Electric Blue auto convertions wrote:
> > I have only had 3 pots go bad so far and they were with in the first
> > year. NOW if you see what Fork lifts use, the same thing only built
> > much better and are still 5K ohm they last forever, BUT if you call
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] jumpy Pots*

When ordering the pot, be very careful to determine the length of the shaft
and make sure it's compatible with the pot already in the potbox. My first
try, I got a pot that looked compatible, but the shaft was too short to fit
correctly into the lever arm.

Mike

> -----Original Message-----
> From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On
> Behalf Of Cor van de Water
> Sent: Wednesday, June 27, 2012 1:01 PM
> To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] jumpy Pots
> 
> OK, found the old thread with the pot suggestion from Lee, besides the
> obvious to go to pick-n-pull and get a TPS (Throttle Position Sensor) from
one
> of the cars that has drive by wire (which is essentially all modern cars).
> My car also accepts a 0 to 3.5V input instead of the accelerator potmeter,
so I
> can make things work even if they are not 0-5kOhm...
> 
> I noticed an old request from someone to convert a 0 - 5V signal to a 0 -
> 5kOhm resistance. That should be simple and only require an opamp and two
> identical MOSFETs. Send a fixed 1mA current through one and compare with
> the input voltage. The other represents the 0 - 5kOhm output based on the
> 0-5V input.
> In case it needs to be 5k - 0 or other conversions (for example from a too
> sensitive linear pot to logarithmic, which will allow smooth take-off)
then
> that is possible also.
> 
> Cor van de Water
> Chief Scientist
> Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
> Email: [email protected] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
> Skype: cor_van_de_water XoIP: +31877841130
> Tel: +1 408 383 7626 Tel: +91 (040)23117400 x203
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On
> Behalf Of Lee Hart
> Sent: Tuesday, September 29, 2009 9:04 AM
> To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] jumpy Pots
> 


> > Electric Blue auto convertions wrote:
> > > I have only had 3 pots go bad so far and they were with in the first
> > > year. NOW if you see what Fork lifts use, the same thing only built
> > > much better and are still 5K ohm they last forever, BUT if you call
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] jumpy Pots*

My setup is not a standard potbox anyway.
It has the pot mounted in a bracket and on its shaft
is a metal piece with a set screw and a U-shaped hole.
In that hole sits a pin which can slide left and right
on another shaft. Next to that is also a metal block
which pushes the microswitch as soon as entire thing
starts sliding.
That contraption is not directly operated by the cable
from the pedal, but instead a lever is mounted where the
cable pulls on one end and the other end operates this
contraption, which also has return spring built-in.
It is a very universal and clever mechanical design,
but if you look at modern TPS assemblies attached to
the pedal itself, then you wonder why we make some
things so complex.
Same here - the whole deal with the microswitch selecting
between idle run and the pot, causing the controller to
throw errors when the input voltage goes over 3.7 during
the switch...
I was thinking about the whole deal and decided that the
simples solution is to send more current through the pot.
The upper 1.2 or 1.5kOhm is working well (little use) so
if I just increase the current by 2mA then the 3.6V to 0
range is the upper half of the pot.
To avoid that the input voltage goes too high and to 
get a stable idle RPM, I will simply add a so-called
programmable zener like a TL431 and re-purpose the already
present trimpot and series resistor as the 2.5V divider 
for the zener. This means that I can solder the TL431 on
that combination, add a pull-up resistor to send 2mA more
into the pot, remove the microswitch wires and simply
wire the zener in parallel to the pot and I am done.
I like it whem solutions are simple.

Cor van de Water
Chief Scientist
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
Email: [email protected] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water XoIP: +31877841130
Tel: +1 408 383 7626 Tel: +91 (040)23117400 x203 

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On
Behalf Of Mike Nickerson
Sent: Wednesday, June 27, 2012 10:39 PM
To: 'Electric Vehicle Discussion List'
Subject: Re: [EVDL] jumpy Pots

When ordering the pot, be very careful to determine the length of the
shaft and make sure it's compatible with the pot already in the potbox.
My first try, I got a pot that looked compatible, but the shaft was too
short to fit correctly into the lever arm.

Mike

> -----Original Message-----
> From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On 
> Behalf Of Cor van de Water
> Sent: Wednesday, June 27, 2012 1:01 PM
> To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] jumpy Pots
> 
> OK, found the old thread with the pot suggestion from Lee, besides the

> obvious to go to pick-n-pull and get a TPS (Throttle Position Sensor) 
> from
one
> of the cars that has drive by wire (which is essentially all modern
cars).
> My car also accepts a 0 to 3.5V input instead of the accelerator 
> potmeter,
so I
> can make things work even if they are not 0-5kOhm...
> 
> I noticed an old request from someone to convert a 0 - 5V signal to a 
> 0 - 5kOhm resistance. That should be simple and only require an opamp 
> and two identical MOSFETs. Send a fixed 1mA current through one and 
> compare with the input voltage. The other represents the 0 - 5kOhm 
> output based on the 0-5V input.
> In case it needs to be 5k - 0 or other conversions (for example from a

> too sensitive linear pot to logarithmic, which will allow smooth 
> take-off)
then
> that is possible also.
> 
> Cor van de Water
> Chief Scientist
> Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
> Email: [email protected] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
> Skype: cor_van_de_water XoIP: +31877841130
> Tel: +1 408 383 7626 Tel: +91 (040)23117400 x203
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On 
> Behalf Of Lee Hart
> Sent: Tuesday, September 29, 2009 9:04 AM
> To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] jumpy Pots
> 


> > Electric Blue auto convertions wrote:
> > > I have only had 3 pots go bad so far and they were with in the first
> 
> > > year. NOW if you see what Fork lifts use, the same thing only built
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] jumpy Pots*

Cor,
Perhaps you should draw something up and post it (you could use the free 
schematic/layout
program www.expresspcb.com for example). Sometimes my attention span is not
very good when reading a description without a schematic where I can visualize 
it immediately.
I does sound like this will work since the program just looks for an accelerator 
input of less than 2.5V
when the start switch is open (indicating there is a problem since the start 
switch is open and it appears
as if the accel is pressed,)
LDA ACC_AD ;ACC<2.5V
CMP #80H
BHI S_CKA
STPEN: BRCLR 0,PORTA,FR_T ;1=ST OPEN
LDA #05H ;FLT 5

Here's the situation I believe your seeing, FLT 7 when voltage is too high 
(above 3.7V)
CA_T: LDA ACC_AD
CMP #0BDH ;3.7V,189
BLS IATT
BSET 3,AFLAG
BRSET 7,EFLAG,IAT ;1=TMM FLT
LDA #07H ;FLT 7,ACC>3.7
BSET 1,BFLAG ;FLT FLAG
JSR DISP




----- Original Message ----
From: Cor van de Water <[email protected]>
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <[email protected]>
Sent: Thu, June 28, 2012 2:31:50 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] jumpy Pots

My setup is not a standard potbox anyway.
It has the pot mounted in a bracket and on its shaft
is a metal piece with a set screw and a U-shaped hole.
In that hole sits a pin which can slide left and right
on another shaft. Next to that is also a metal block
which pushes the microswitch as soon as entire thing
starts sliding.
That contraption is not directly operated by the cable
from the pedal, but instead a lever is mounted where the
cable pulls on one end and the other end operates this
contraption, which also has return spring built-in.
It is a very universal and clever mechanical design,
but if you look at modern TPS assemblies attached to
the pedal itself, then you wonder why we make some
things so complex.
Same here - the whole deal with the microswitch selecting
between idle run and the pot, causing the controller to
throw errors when the input voltage goes over 3.7 during
the switch...
I was thinking about the whole deal and decided that the
simples solution is to send more current through the pot.
The upper 1.2 or 1.5kOhm is working well (little use) so
if I just increase the current by 2mA then the 3.6V to 0
range is the upper half of the pot.
To avoid that the input voltage goes too high and to 
get a stable idle RPM, I will simply add a so-called
programmable zener like a TL431 and re-purpose the already
present trimpot and series resistor as the 2.5V divider 
for the zener. This means that I can solder the TL431 on
that combination, add a pull-up resistor to send 2mA more
into the pot, remove the microswitch wires and simply
wire the zener in parallel to the pot and I am done.
I like it whem solutions are simple.

Cor van de Water
Chief Scientist
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
Email: [email protected] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water XoIP: +31877841130
Tel: +1 408 383 7626 Tel: +91 (040)23117400 x203 

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On
Behalf Of Mike Nickerson
Sent: Wednesday, June 27, 2012 10:39 PM
To: 'Electric Vehicle Discussion List'
Subject: Re: [EVDL] jumpy Pots

When ordering the pot, be very careful to determine the length of the
shaft and make sure it's compatible with the pot already in the potbox.
My first try, I got a pot that looked compatible, but the shaft was too
short to fit correctly into the lever arm.

Mike

> -----Original Message-----
> From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On 
> Behalf Of Cor van de Water
> Sent: Wednesday, June 27, 2012 1:01 PM
> To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] jumpy Pots
> 
> OK, found the old thread with the pot suggestion from Lee, besides the

> obvious to go to pick-n-pull and get a TPS (Throttle Position Sensor) 
> from
one
> of the cars that has drive by wire (which is essentially all modern
cars).
> My car also accepts a 0 to 3.5V input instead of the accelerator 
> potmeter,
so I
> can make things work even if they are not 0-5kOhm...
> 
> I noticed an old request from someone to convert a 0 - 5V signal to a 
> 0 - 5kOhm resistance. That should be simple and only require an opamp 
> and two identical MOSFETs. Send a fixed 1mA current through one and 
> compare with the input voltage. The other represents the 0 - 5kOhm 
> output based on the 0-5V input.
> In case it needs to be 5k - 0 or other conversions (for example from a

> too sensitive linear pot to logarithmic, which will allow smooth 
> take-off)
then
> that is possible also.
> 
> Cor van de Water
> Chief Scientist
> Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
> Email: [email protected] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
> Skype: cor_van_de_water XoIP: +31877841130
> Tel: +1 408 383 7626 Tel: +91 (040)23117400 x203
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On 
> Behalf Of Lee Hart
> Sent: Tuesday, September 29, 2009 9:04 AM
> To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] jumpy Pots
> 


> > Electric Blue auto convertions wrote:
> > > I have only had 3 pots go bad so far and they were with in the first
> 
> > > year. NOW if you see what Fork lifts use, the same thing only built
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] jumpy Pots*

I don't see why it is so hard to have a pot go from 0 to 100 ohms on the first 
half of the throw and 100 to 5000 ohms on the second half. It's the way a gas 
engine works. Electric has no lag therefore it's jerky. I have a standard 
Curtis pot and it is tricky to start. My daughter won't even drive it. I'd 
love to find a specialized pot. Maybe a series of pots in parallel or series. 
I start my ev in first gear and leave it there until I get to 25mph. Once 
started and rolling no problem. It's overcoming the start with just the right 
push that is tricky. Worst case my car bucks like a bucking bronco. Lawrence 
Rhodes....but it is possible but takes about 5 seconds to do smoothly.

_______________________________________________
| Moratorium on drag racing discussion is in effect.
| Please take those discussions elsewhere. Thanks.
|
| REPLYING: address your message to [email protected] only.
| Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
| UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
| OTHER HELP: http://evdl.org/help/
| CONFIGURE: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] jumpy Pots*

Some controllers have that feature built in. For example, you can set what percentage PWM half-throttle is. If you set it to, say, 30%, then the first half of the throttle is 0% - 30%, and the second half of the throttle is 30% - 100%.

Bill

----- Original Message -----
From: Lawrence Rhodes <[email protected]>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Thu, 28 Jun 2012 14:16:46 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: [EVDL] jumpy Pots

I don't see why it is so hard to have a pot go from 0 to 100 ohms on the first 
half of the throw and 100 to 5000 ohms on the second half. It's the way a gas 
engine works. Electric has no lag therefore it's jerky. I have a standard 
Curtis pot and it is tricky to start. My daughter won't even drive it. I'd 
love to find a specialized pot. Maybe a series of pots in parallel or series. 
I start my ev in first gear and leave it there until I get to 25mph. Once 
started and rolling no problem. It's overcoming the start with just the right 
push that is tricky. Worst case my car bucks like a bucking bronco. Lawrence 
Rhodes....but it is possible but takes about 5 seconds to do smoothly.

_______________________________________________
| Moratorium on drag racing discussion is in effect.
| Please take those discussions elsewhere. Thanks.
|
| REPLYING: address your message to [email protected] only.
| Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
| UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
| OTHER HELP: http://evdl.org/help/
| CONFIGURE: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev

_______________________________________________
| Moratorium on drag racing discussion is in effect.
| Please take those discussions elsewhere. Thanks.
|
| REPLYING: address your message to [email protected] only.
| Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
| UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
| OTHER HELP: http://evdl.org/help/
| CONFIGURE: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] jumpy Pots*

> I don't see why it is so hard to have a pot go from 0 to 100 ohms on the =
first
> half of the throw and 100 to 5000 ohms on the second half. It's the wa=
y a gas

> engine works.

I used to write firmware for electric fork lift controllers and we did this=
in firmware, i.e. interpret 0 to 2500 ohms as if it were 0 to 2% throttle =
and 2500 to 5k ohms as if 2% to 100% throttle. It was all to make the tr=
uck feel more like gas powered. Unless the microcontroller used was comp=
letely out of memory the feature was free and only involved a little time t=
o develop. I would sort of expect Curtis to have asimilarfeature, =
maybe on fancier controllers?

-Chris Darilek



________________________________
From: Lawrence Rhodes <[email protected]>
To: [email protected] =

Sent: Thursday, June 28, 2012 1:16 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] jumpy Pots
=

I don't see why it is so hard to have a pot go from 0 to 100 ohms on the fi=
rst =

half of the throw and 100 to 5000 ohms on the second half. It's the way =
a gas =

engine works. Electric has no lag therefore it's jerky. I have a stan=
dard =

Curtis pot and it is tricky to start. My daughter won't even drive it.=
I'd =

love to find a specialized pot. Maybe a series of pots in parallel or se=
ries. =

I start my ev in first gear and leave it there until I get to 25mph. Onc=
e =

started and rolling no problem. It's overcoming the start with just the rig=
ht =

push that is tricky. Worst case my car bucks like a bucking bronco. L=
awrence =

Rhodes....but it is possible but takes about 5 seconds to do smoothly.

_______________________________________________
| Moratorium on drag racing discussion is in effect.
| Please take those discussions elsewhere. Thanks.
|
| REPLYING: address your message to [email protected] only.
| Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
| UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
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| Moratorium on drag racing discussion is in effect.
| Please take those discussions elsewhere. Thanks.
|
| REPLYING: address your message to [email protected] only.
| Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
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----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] jumpy Pots*

Lawrence,
Is your pot the same setup as Lee explained for standard
Curtis - 5k is idle (no power) and 0 is max power?
there are not many pots that are reverse logarithmic,
where the are of small changes is at the high end of
the scale, while the large changes appear at the low
end of the scale. 
It can be made of course, but that is not standard.
Also it is difficult to get right, if the small steps
all go from 5k to 4.7k and then it starts increasing
faster, while your controller only starts delivering
power when it sees the throttle go below 4.5k then
you are still missing all that fine control and
immediately jumping to the large steps.
So, sometimes it is better to have a linear pot
and convert the output to what you want to get,
either with series/parallel resistors or an
electronic conversion or - preferably - in software.

Regards,

Cor van de Water
Chief Scientist
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
Email: [email protected] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water XoIP: +31877841130
Tel: +1 408 383 7626 Tel: +91 (040)23117400 x203 

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On
Behalf Of Lawrence Rhodes
Sent: Thursday, June 28, 2012 11:17 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [EVDL] jumpy Pots

I don't see why it is so hard to have a pot go from 0 to 100 ohms on the
first half of the throw and 100 to 5000 ohms on the second half. It's
the way a gas engine works. Electric has no lag therefore it's jerky.
I have a standard Curtis pot and it is tricky to start. My daughter
won't even drive it. I'd love to find a specialized pot. Maybe a
series of pots in parallel or series. 
I start my ev in first gear and leave it there until I get to 25mph.
Once started and rolling no problem. It's overcoming the start with just
the right push that is tricky. Worst case my car bucks like a bucking
bronco. Lawrence Rhodes....but it is possible but takes about 5 seconds
to do smoothly.

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] jumpy Pots*



> On 28 Jun 2012 at 11:16, Lawrence Rhodes wrote:
> 
> > I don't see why it is so hard to have a pot go from 0 to 100 ohms on the first
> > half of the throw and 100 to 5000 ohms on the second half. It's the way a gas
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] jumpy Pots*

I have a modified Curtis 1221B modified for 144vdc and needs 0 to 5K. So I'd 
like very little change in the first half and most in the second half. Lawrence 
Rhodes......

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