# Toys are finally here!



## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

Actually the CNC machine and BLDC motor arrived last week, but I didn't have the time to post worthy (with pictures) updates until now.

Officially the motor is 3800-4000 RPM, but my testing showed a no load RPM of 4400. No problem there since even 3000 RPM would have been enough for my saturn's 5 speed.

The controller has a built in fan cooled heat sink that accounts for about 40% of the total volume. Its huge. The actual heat sink plate is made of 1/2" aluminum and the fins are crimped into the surface with cooling flow above and below the controller case. Overal its a little large compared to a curtis 144V, but this doesn't need any other accessories to work.

Nice thing about this is that it doesn't require a DC/DC converter to run, and they supplied a weather sealed foot pedal assembly for speed control.

The motor appears to simply be an industrial frame motor case, but the internals are a perminant magnet DC brushless configuration. Overal Diameter is 10" (9.8 according to specs), and it is a little over 100 lbs. I can just barely pick it up off the floor.

I have no way to test the 20kw constant and 40kw peak however. That will have to come later.

For testing I assembled the 144V battery pack on the shop floor and ran it using 10 gauge wires. Thats the only catch so far, there doesn't seem to be the actual traction wires to carry the current from the controller to the motor and back. I'm asking about that right now but will probably just make my own considering how long it might take to get them from china. Not really worth fretting about.

Dynamic speed control is smooth and precise. The case is sealed, and the rear mounted fan will blow your hat off at full RPM. The reversing worked perfectly too.

Only real snag is it seems I made a mistake in understanding what "face" or "side" mount meant in chinese translation. Basically, I will have some minor modding to do on the front cover of the motor to make it accept an adaptor plate. But since we have CNC capability in house now, that won't be a problem. We're actually toying with the idea of making a completely new front case cover just for the fun of it. I'll try and upload pictures of the CNC later when I have some time.

Woohoo!


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Nice, glad to see it's in your hands. Do you plan to machine the new end to mate up with existing 9" adapters?


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

I wouldn't have expected it to come with the motor to controller power cables, (mine didn't), and depending on how you mount it the lengths could be different for different setups.


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## AmpEater (Mar 10, 2008)

Specs? Who made it? Cost? Looks very interesting


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

JRP3 said:


> Nice, glad to see it's in your hands. Do you plan to machine the new end to mate up with existing 9" adapters?


Me too

Once we figure out the CNC machine and software, I can make any pattern I want. Might use the standard 9", but I don't have to. This machine can make the complete adaptor plate with several feet of clearance to spare.



JRP3 said:


> I wouldn't have expected it to come with the motor to controller power cables, (mine didn't), and depending on how you mount it the lengths could be different for different setups.


I actually fired off an Email asking what their engineers recommended for the power cable lengths and the answer was basically check the box again because they should be there. The package had been opened before it arrived, so maybe it was lost. Shipping companies are not often reliable in my experience. The motor nearly fell through the floor from the whole crate being dropped a few times. The CNC machine also had some minor damage from being dropped.

I have some 1/2" wielding cable that should work fairly well, I just want to know what length is recommended.


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

AmpEater said:


> Specs? Who made it? Cost? Looks very interesting


The specs should be:

20kw constant, 40kw peak
50mn constant, 105nm peak
3800 RPM (I tested to 4450)
55 kg (guessing slightly lighter in reality)
Air cooled,
144-172V operating range
96% peak efficiency

Needless to say, I can't verify all of those specs personally.

This is who I got it from:
http://www.tsxdl.cn/eindex.asp

Price was $3660 USD for everything. Shipping didn't cost anything because the contact for the CNC machine was VERY KIND and offered to combine the shipping free of charge since both packages would have gone through the same seaport and their warehouse was closer to the motor supplier.

The motor supplier also went through a lot of trouble to make something that worked well on 144V. Ideal voltage for this kw rating starts at 220V and 320 is better.

So far, our experience with both companies has been positive.


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## AmpEater (Mar 10, 2008)

david85 said:


> The specs should be:
> 
> 20kw constant, 40kw peak
> 50mn constant, 105nm peak
> ...


Great, thanks for the info!

I ask because I want a second motor for my direct drive conversion, ideally something that is capable of regen, but every AC/BLDC motor I see is designed for higher voltages. Looks absolutely perfect

Is that shaft a standard 1.125" keyed?
Is it reversible?
How many amps can the dc/dc put out?
Did they custom build the controller just for you?
Think 156v would pose any issues for them?


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

david85 said:


> I have some 1/2" wielding cable that should work fairly well, I just want to know what length is recommended.


I'd assume as short as reasonably possible, that's what I'm going with on mine though nothing was specified.


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## rillip3 (Jun 19, 2009)

wooo! Gratz! Now that you have all the parts, I expect to see pictures of you driving around the neighborhood tomorrow...


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

AmpEater said:


> Great, thanks for the info!
> 
> I ask because I want a second motor for my direct drive conversion, ideally something that is capable of regen, but every AC/BLDC motor I see is designed for higher voltages. Looks absolutely perfect
> 
> ...


1 I have to double check the size on the CAD drawing (on the other PC), but its a standard metric spline shaft. I think it is about 1.25" diameter though. I asked about getting a keyed shaft, but they were worried that it would be too weak. Guess they like to over design things a little. incidentally, the tailshaft that is covered with a plastic fan is a keyed shaft. In theory some modding could be done to swap ends if one wanted to improvise, but I'll try to find a female spline coupling that I can wield before risking such a move.

2 Yes, it is reversible. There are two loose wire ends that you connect to make it change rotation. Its just that easy (TM)lol

3 There is no DC/DC converter. At least not in the conventional sense. What I meant is that it has a built in circuit for the speed control sensor. I will still need to get a DC/DC converter for the car accessories.

4 Don't know about the controller, but they did for the motor. Caused them much grief from what she told me, but were able to get it right. 144V is not ideal for this amount of power in a BLDC motor but I couldn't go any higher and they were willing to help me (wanted my money). The can also build them for different RPM ranges.

5 Since mine works, I think it would be ok as long as you are satisfied with 156V.............

BUT!!!!!

If you have even the slightest interest in LiFePO4 batteries, then contact them first and get an idea on what is ideal for the amount of power you need. Higher voltage is ridiculously easy to get with lithium, and it makes the motor, controller and even the conductors work much easier netting higher efficiency and less risk for heat soaking. It really comes down to what your budget is.

The only possible catch here is they might be having problems with their export privileges. It has nothing to do with their product or conduct, but instead they were fighting with red tape at the time of building my motor. That was in itself a load of grief for them. They might have worked that out by now though. Staffing shortage was making the problem worse. Late 2008 was the first time they tried to export but have been in business for several years within china.


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

JRP3 said:


> I'd assume as short as reasonably possible, that's what I'm going with on mine though nothing was specified.


Agreed, but would still like to know whats possible if they can offer some pointers. In all likelihood, I'll probably just mount the controller directly on top of the motor.

Does curtis have any guidance for your motor?


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

rillip3 said:


> wooo! Gratz! Now that you have all the parts, I expect to see pictures of you driving around the neighborhood tomorrow...


I wish

City hall wants railings on the roof (not small either). Thats the rest of my summer gone.

I'm probably about 75% complete with my components. Still need a vacuum pump, springs, DC/DC converter, another battery box or 2, and who knows what else I forgot. Oh yeah, some gauges, main disconnect, main contactor relay.....

Nope, probably won't drive it this summer.


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## Grant_NZ (May 28, 2008)

david85 said:


> They might have worked that out by now though. Staffing shortage was making the problem worse. Late 2008 was the first time they tried to export but have been in business for several years within china.


Very cool... 

so is this a one off or are they making this package available to public?


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

david85 said:


> Agreed, but would still like to know whats possible if they can offer some pointers. In all likelihood, I'll probably just mount the controller directly on top of the motor.
> 
> Does curtis have any guidance for your motor?


This is what Curtis says for the wiring:


> Battery cables (B+, B-)
> These two cables should be run close to each other between the controller
> and the battery. Use high quality copper lugs and observe the recommended
> torque ratings. For best noise immunity the cables should not run across the
> ...


 Pretty much what you'd expect.


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## tomofreno (Mar 3, 2009)

JRP3,

Is this from documentation that came with the controller, or did you find it on their website?


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

It's a PDF from Curtis, I think I got it from their website.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Here's a link to it from thunderstruck
http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sour...O0qDnkrVbtil0hhHA&sig2=v9lVGNsWoWewfgnJmI73pAhttp://www.thunderstruck-ev.com/1234_36_38 Manual Rev C2.pdf


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

Grant_NZ said:


> Very cool...
> 
> so is this a one off or are they making this package available to public?


I dunno if this exact motor /controller package, but...

From personal experience, they will be happy to take your money.Small/medium and even large sized chinese companies like this tend to not be afraid of small orders or one-off customers. Thats the biggest reason why we chose to look off shore to find what we needed. Local companies either tell you to bugger off or simply don't reply at all. The ones that are helpful (like JRP3's source) tend to be limited in what product they are able to offer.

JP's motor seems to be at least as good, but the voltage was too low for me to use and there *should* be higher efficiency with my motor, we'll see. Supposedly a higher voltage controller might be in the works for the AC motor though.

Ideal voltage for these motors starts at 200V if you need more than 50hp though. Even my motor would probably be happier on higher voltage. Thats the advantage of the source I found since their controllers can go to 400V and beyond depending on the application.


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## Grant_NZ (May 28, 2008)

Did you deal with one person and if so, would you have his contact details? 

Thanks David


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## TheNines (Aug 28, 2008)

Ditto request for contact info, it would really help me out too!


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

Sorry guys, I meant to post this but forgot.

Xiu Li
Sales person

tai'an taishan new power electrical machinery Co., Ltd.
Address: (Inside Chuangye Company Yard) Mid Changcheng Road, Gaoxin District , Tai'an City, Shandong Province, PR. China
P.C.:271022
Email: [email protected]
http://www.tsxdl.cn
MSN: [email protected]
Alibaba Trade ID: cntaianxindongli
Telephone: 0086-0538-8362978
Fax: 0086-0538-8362978


(don't ask me how to pronounce her name....I have no idea)

You can also search some of their products on alibaba and if you have an account, live chat is available (be aware of the time zone though).

http://www.alibaba.com/product-gs/226185098/traction_motor.html


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## gdirwin (Apr 7, 2009)

I am also about to make a motor decision - brushless dc with regen sounds attractive...

How did you find working with this company - do they provide good technical support? Was the documentation readable/concise? What sort or warranty did you get?

Finally, why did you go with the lower voltage/high AH batteries, instead of higher voltages? Were there other higher kW motors there to choose from?

Too many questions - it seems you are pioneering this one...


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

Going with 144 was a mistake in the end. I did that because I knew if I couldn't find a BLDC motor, I could still fall back on a series wound brushed motor like warP or ADC. 
I was in touch with a shop in california that was supposed to be able to make me a powerful 144V BLDC motor, but he stopped returning my calls, so I had to look elsewhere. By then I already had the battery, but didn't want to settle for something that didn't have regen. It was at that point that I found this company.
If I had to do it again, I would ask for a motor at at the power rating I wanted (60kw peak or more) and have them recommend the lightest possible frame and whatever voltage they felt would work best. THEN I would order a battery to match the drive system. 320 seems to be the idea voltage for stock motors in that power range.

144V was also the gold standard for EV conversions for the last 20 years simply because the available motors, controllers and lead batteries lent themselves to that range. In reality this kind of kw power is more efficient at higher voltage and these days the lithium batteries and modern motor controllers make that easier to reach. In fact the transition was happening right when I was shopping for parts, I just didn't realize it at the time.

Xui was patient with me and all my questions, but documentation is limited and mostly chinese. By mistake, they didn't include the wire leads between the controller and motor, but thats not a big deal and I can replace that myself. Not sure what the warranty was, but I would expect it to be no more than 1 year if I asked. In the end the cost was less than the cost for a warP setup so I can't really expect more.


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## GreenOptions (Oct 31, 2009)

their water cooled motors look interesting but its a very new company

25 kW 50 kg , max 3500 RPM , 320 volt 

waiting on shipping prices to australia

probably build our own controllers but will evaluate theirs once i get a spec sheet


http://www.tsxdl.cn/eshow.asp?Shop_ID=250

cheers.

mark


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## GreenOptions (Oct 31, 2009)

Hey .. just wondering what kind of BMS you will be using with your LifePo4 batteries ?

i see you did some testing without BMS fitted ?


There are some australian guys who have designed lower cost BMS with higher efficiency

My username there is HeadsUp in case yer was confuzed 

http://www.aeva.asn.au/forums/forum_posts.asp?TID=900


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

The cells get balanced only by the charger in my case. When running in the car, there is no active BMS. From what I can tell, the motor controller has a low voltage shut off to prevent over discharge.

I've come to the conclusion that active BMS not needed in most applications and my car will not be testing the current draw limits of the batteries so there is no reason for them to get out of sync with each other. But if they do, they get corrected at the next recharge so I still don't see the problem.

In my testing, I found the cells tend to cycle closer and closer in sync with each other over time as the charger forces them to fill up evenly at the end of each recharge and as the cells wear in. They will only get out of sync if one is defective, or they are being pushed beyond the voltage limits (overcharge or overdischarge) or current limits. So far, I haven't seen any hint of misbalance with my 12.8V battery and the 144V uses identical cells.

If these were LiPo or LiCO2 batteries, then I would be concerned about having active BMS for charging and discharging, but I feel that LiFePO4 is much more forgiving and based on what I saw myself they do not require it as much as the older cobalt verions. From what little I've seen of home brew BMS, they are not very reliable either.


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## GreenOptions (Oct 31, 2009)

david85 said:


> The cells get balanced only by the charger in my case. When running in the car, there is no active BMS. From what I can tell, the motor controller has a low voltage shut off to prevent over discharge.
> 
> I've come to the conclusion that active BMS not needed in most applications and my car will not be testing the current draw limits of the batteries so there is no reason for them to get out of sync with each other. But if they do, they get corrected at the next recharge so I still don't see the problem.
> 
> ...


sorry but you need to do some reading or you will be throwing away half your batteries within months.

google up BMS requirements , there is good BMS systems ( aftermarket ones not from TS or Sky)

with good BMS setup you might get 10 years plus out of LiFePo4 , *google* buddy , there are plenty of guys who tried the cheap way and killed their battery packs


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

On the other hand you might want to look up Jack Rickard and his Porsche build. He runs no BMS and has had no issues in about 5000 miles I think. If you never overcharge or over discharge a cell why would you have problems? Unless you are constantly pushing the limits of your range there shouldn't be an issue. If you are pushing the limits then you built too small a pack.


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

I respect your opinion, GreenOptions but I'll go on my own experience. I've seen examples that shows even older LiPos can stay in balance with each other as long as you run them within the cycle and C limits. LiFePO4 is even more stabe and consistent.

I've done the experiment, observed the voltage between cells and have been using the 12.8V cell. Can't comment on what you are referring to since I haven't seen the individual cases.

I'll admit that the idea is controvercial, which is why I stop short of advising others to do the same (I don't advise anything when it comes BMS). However, I am going to rely on the charger mounted BMS that was supplied with the battery pack.

Whatever happens, the forum will find out.


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## karlos (Jun 30, 2008)

Hi David, how is the project going? 
Could you please further explain the charger mounted BMS you mention that you got with the batteries? If it is the case that at each charge the individual batteries can be fully charged and not limited by the fastest charging one, it seems to be all you would need.
How are you finding the controller; is it reasonably compact for it's power?
Do you know if the controllers for the water cooled motors is also water cooled?


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

As I understand it, the charger pushes current into the battery pack like any other charger (series wired, + and -). When the cells get to the top of their rated voltage (typically 3.75V), the BMS intervenes and independently caps voltage of the cells that reach the max voltage before others. One by one, each of them reach the rated voltage. Once the total pack voltage reaches the required level, the charger and BMS shut off.

The BMS activates only near the top of the charge cycle which is well after the constant voltage phase begins and where the current is tapered off significantly. This alone makes this system much safer in my opinion than the shunt BMS method which is expected to regulate dynamically across the entire cycle even when amps are higher. To individually balance the cells, the BMS I have has an extensive wiring harness that spreads across the pack to isolate each cell by itself with the central unit being a box that sits next to the charger. Its not going to be fun to install that harness....

Something else that I should add, is that even this BMS might be more than is really needed. I actually will take my 12V charger off before the BMS phase is complete sometimes just because it takes so darn long. Once the surface charge wears off, they are all VERY close in voltage even without the BMS phase for every single recharge. Over time, I found that they will cycle closer together, not farther apart. Unlike what some have said about lithium.

The motor and controller are a decent setup so far. I does feel like about 50 Hp peak (which is what they claimed) and the car has some pep. Torque range is completely flat, so Hp curve is probably linear (what you expect from a brushless DC motor). Had a loose connectors inside that was causing some problems but I bypassed fixed that. The only real problem I have with it at the moment is it seems to have a "safety" cut out if you floor it for too long (more than about 3 seconds). One thing thats interesting is the controller seems to be rely on RPM control more than torque control, so it takes a little getting used to. Whats neat is being able to crawl over a curb like a 4 wheeler in low range. Doesn't even feel it in 1st gear, just rolls over at a fixed RPM.

Motor and controller have run cold so far with my limited testing and the cooling fans on the controller never came on. The controller is a true IGBT (as apposed to MOSFET)model and it seems to be over designed for my application. Its not very compact though, and I had to modify the cooling package and case to make it fit under the hood. Even then its a very tight fit. Probably comparable to the bulky setup that Azure Dynamics has.

The company says they offer liquid cooled motors and controllers. My setup is all air cooled. The controller is built on a 1/2" aluminum plate that has cooling fins crimped to the back of it and they are about 2" tall (then you have forced air cooling on top of that).


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## karlos (Jun 30, 2008)

Thanks David for your detailed response to my questions! I contacted the company and got a quote for a motor and controller so I have been following with interest your progress.
You certainly have been doing a great job!
When you say the BMS cuts in towards the end and tops up each cell, is each cell wired individually to the BMS and controller? Otherwise with this system i don't understand how the cells are equalized.


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

karlos said:


> When you say the BMS cuts in towards the end and tops up each cell, is each cell wired individually to the BMS and controller?


Bingo, thats exactly how it works. And thats why I said I'm not looking forward to wiring it all up. The harness they provide works great if all the cells are in one location, but I have 3 separate battery boxes spread through out the car so there will be a lot of splicing.

So far, I have had decent response to all my concerns and questions about the motor and controller. It hasn't been perfect, but acceptable. I'll post updated on what I find out with my more recent concerns about the electric braking and the high power cut out.


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

*To anyone following this thread and is interested in my BLDC setup I have some bad news. The controller nearly burned up during an evening test drive. I have traced the problem down to (yet another) loose connector. This time it was on one of the IGBT modules and we figure it resulted in arcing that started a downward spiral until smoke started being visible from under the hood.*

*For all I know, this could be why the car kept cutting out at higher power settings.*

*The car is fine, we are fine, and the controller should be salvagable even if I have to do it all myself.*

*I am going to still try and talk to the vendor to see if they are willing to do anyting.*

Really sucks because it was just starting to run well.


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## karlos (Jun 30, 2008)

David, that's a real disappointment to say the least. Wishing you a speedy resolution and keep us posted, you are pioneering new gear on behalf of all of us!


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## RKM (Jun 9, 2008)

karlos said:


> David, that's a real disappointment to say the least. Wishing you a speedy resolution and keep us posted, you are pioneering new gear on behalf of all of us!



What he said ^.

That which doesn't kill me, makes me stronger.

Good luck finding a solution. I know you will.

Rob


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

Oh, I will find a solution

I just wanted to get the word out for anyone else considering getting a system from these people understand what problems they can expect. It would kill me to see some one else go through this if I could have warned them ahead of time.


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## Jan (Oct 5, 2009)

david85 said:


> Oh, I will find a solution
> 
> I just wanted to get the word out for anyone else considering getting a system from these people understand what problems they can expect. It would kill me to see some one else go through this if I could have warned them ahead of time.


On the other hand you're the one who's taking all the risks and I (and maybe others) am only watching how it works out...


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