# Is an EV more expensive than Gas vehicle?



## mrcshbs (Nov 25, 2008)

Hello to all,
First of all, I would like to say that I am an EV fanatic and have done several conversions myself… but one question has been pondering me.

PLEASE, correct me if I am wrong. Now, I have rounded all numbers to make it simple. Ok?

If I purchase a Lead Acid battery bank, say, for 2000 dollars for a 144V system, each battery will cost around 166 Dollars (2000/12 = 166), and if that battery lasts about 2 years (around 700-800 cycles.. or something like that) which is 24 months.
So, 2000 dollars divided by 24 months = 83 dollars a month. (for a Lead Acid Bank) PLUS the cost of electricity to recharge the bank. (shouldn’t be that much)
I don’t think I spend that much at all in Gas. It’s more like 60 dollars a month. 

Ok. Now let’s consider a LiFePO4 Battery Bank.
Say, a miracle happens and I find a LiFePO4 battery bank that costs 8000 dollars. And let’s say they last 2000 cycles (like most people claim)… I drive my car every day, 7 days a week, including work and running errands.
2000 cycles divided by 365 = 5.4 years of service life… now that equals to:
8000 divided by 5.4 years = 1481 dollars a year.
1481 dollars a year divided by 12 months = 123 dollars a month.

So a 8000 dollars LiFePO4 battery bank will cost be 123 dollars a month (assuming it will last 2000 cycles) compared to 83 dollars a month for the Lead acid.

Well, the point I am trying to make here is that I’ve seen a lot of people excited about EV’s and whatnot, but they tend to forget that the battery bank will eventually need to be replaced and it may cost a lot. 
I guess EV’s are still pretty expensive compared to some small 4 cylinder gas vehicles.
Am I missing something here??

To try to overcome this battery cycle problem, I looked into capacitors. I designed a capacitor bank for an EV, which would only be able to drive the EV approximately 40 miles per charge.. but the cost was astronomical… I was quoted $321.000 for this bank by a company. With some effort, it would fit in the EV, but even though it very light, the volume was a little too big.

The capacitor bank would last approximately 500.000 cycles, so if you charge it every day, there would be 365 cycles a year so, 500.000 divided by 365 equals 1369 years
LOL… I may be way off in the math here… please correct me if I am wrong.. LOL
I really appreciate your input. I really love EV’s… but we need to come up with a better battery system quickly.

One last note, if anyone here is interested in Electric / Hydrogen Hybrid vehicle, please let me know, I am working on one right now. (kind of like the Plug in Prius)
60 miles on pure electric and the rest on H2.

Thanks.

Marcos


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## Georgia Tech (Dec 5, 2008)

Hey man I was always told that it was equivalent to 5.00 a gallon of gas to run an EV from start to finish...So yes it is more expensive to run an EV...A hybrid now....MAYBE a different story..


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## IamIan (Mar 29, 2009)

mrcshbs said:


> Am I missing something here??


A few things.

The EV does not have many other operating & regular maintenance costs the ICE has that you ignored.

Also a $8,000 LiFePO4 battery pack is over kill for the vast majority of people.

Also very few people drive 70+ Miles 7 days a week every day of every year... ~80% of the U.S. Population drives on average less than 50 miles a day.

The DoD greatly effects the cycle life ... some people will get ~2,000 cycles ... others might get ~3,000 cycles.... etc.

Of course there is a break even point ... there are initial costs ... and there are service costs ... depending on the specifics of the situation and how much you include or exclude you can great adjust the break even point ... and exactly where you fall on the break even point will determine which method is cheaper in $...

A ICE car can under the right conditions be cheaper ... the EV can be cheaper ... where your specific situation falls depends on the specifics.

-----------

All that having been said ... people do not by cars to save $ ... they buy cars , TV , Laptops, gold, etc... because they want it... If you want to save money don't buy a car... the only thing more expensive for the average U.S. citizen is shelter ( ie rent, mortgages , etc ) ... to far to bicycle ... ride a buses ... get a small scooter... etc... a car is just about the most expensive method to get from point A to point B.... we pay that additional cost because we want the things a car brings with it ... but that is not at all about saving money $.


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## Sunking (Aug 10, 2009)

IMO you are going about it wrong. If you ignore the conversion cost or the extra a hybrid cost you, then the thing to do is figure out fuel cost per mile. An EV is much more efficient, but to make the determination you need to know your wh/mile efficiency, electric cost, and charge efficiency. 

So let's say you get 200 wh/mile, and juice cost 12-cents per Kwh. So your fuel cost per mile is roughly ($.12/ 5 miles)/ .8 charge efficiency = 3 cents per mile.

Here is the sad part if buying a manufactured EV or hybrid. It will not pay off in fuel savings. You are paying extra to feel warm and fuzzy.


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## jondoh (Sep 8, 2008)

My case:

http://www.evalbum.com/2975


LiFePo batteries 72v 100ah = $3000

$3000/5.4 = $555.56 per year

$555.56/12 = $46.3 per month

Miles per day = 20 miles

Miles per month = 600 miles

cost per mile $0.035 (250 kwh/mile & $0.14 per kwh)

cost per month in electricity = $21

cost per month battery and electricity = $67.3

cost of gas per month for 600 miles (assume 24 mpg & $3/gal gas) 

= $75

I WIN!


By the way, have you looked into fuel cell costs? Aren't they like 10s of thousands of dollars??? A straight 72v conversion costs only $3000 ~ $4000. Yeah, there's a reason why DIY fuel cell conversions are not done very often.

Have you really done several conversion? Where's your EV Album page? Your battery knowledge seems a little dated for someone that's done "several" conversions.


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## mrcshbs (Nov 25, 2008)

Hey guys...

Thanks for the feedback...

One point I need to make it is that I was not trying to compare battery banks and types... I was trying to compare the price of gallon of gas with the eventual battery bank replacement.

I guess if I would never have to change by battery bank, EV's will be cheaper... but unfortunately, that is not the case.

I think one of the mane drawbacks of Electric vehicles (yes, EV's don't have the ICE Maintenance issues or oil changes) is that the owner will be faced with a large bill every few years or so in order to change the battery bank.

Just an example, I could spend 3000 dollars and get an ICE that may last for 100.000 miles or so and only get a battery bank that will last 40.000 miles for the same price. (pay the same price for both) 

Please understand the above example deal with potential use.

I guess we need disposable EV's ... like they did with cameras... or the EV owner must setup some type of "battery fund" so when that time comes, they will be ready to pay some good chunk of change for a new battery bank.

I think another scenario will be: when Electric vehicles become popular, and eventually replace the gas engine, EV dealers will have some type of trade in offer so people can trade in Depleted battery EV's and walk out with a new EV and new batteries. Just like they do with ICE today.


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## gss99 (Dec 31, 2009)

I have never built an electric car but don't they generally consist of 3 things. A motor, a controller, and a battery? For the Do-it-yourself, it's not even close when you add in everything. If someone knows how to install his own motor and battery, then the cost savings is enormous compared to everything that could go wrong on gasoline engine. To do a real comparison, you have to figure out how much it cost per mile on a gas engine including repairs compared to an electric. I guarantee you will repair an electric much less often.


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## mrcshbs (Nov 25, 2008)

Hi Jondoh

I forgot about the NEV’s… I guess they’re cheaper.

7.2 KW/H battery bank for 20 miles??? not bad…you’re NEV must be really light.

And yes, I have done several conversions. And yes I have looked into the costs of Hydrogen fuel cells (also yes! They’re really expensive)

I haven’t really posted much pics and stuff I’ve created, most of them are “experiments” anyways… Here is 95 Corsica “experiment” using an auto transmission. It was a fun project…

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7NTsHqtKPz8

I have never used LiFePO4, always used Lead Acid and AGM.. the only reason I never did was because I could never afford the upfront costs of LiFePO4. but I am saving $$ for my first now.


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## jondoh (Sep 8, 2008)

> I forgot about the NEV’s… I guess they’re cheaper.


My car? With a top speed of 53 mph, it aint no NEV! 

I'm not sure of the point in saving for a new battery pack. It's not like most gas car owners are saving their money for a new motor after owning their car for 5 to 10 years. With 2000 charge cycles and 5.4 years, i'm pretty sure most folks are just going to trade up after that amount of time. Screw replacing the battery pack. I'll buy the latest and greatest.



> ust an example, I could spend 3000 dollars and get an ICE that may last for 100.000 miles


What about $1000 a year for gas (and that's assuming prices won't go up)? What about oil changes, spark plugs, belts, transmission fluid service, radiator flush, oil pump, water pump, timing belt, alternator, air filter, fuel filter and oil filter? Half the money spent on wear and tear on an ICE will easily pay for a new pack.


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## mrcshbs (Nov 25, 2008)

I don't know about 1000 dollars a year in gas,... maybe in a few years, since the gas prices will surely go up... 

my are more like 600 a year... I drive a small vehicle, besides having an EV.

I do agree with you, 53 mhp is defenetly no NEV!! LOL (I really didn't mean to put your EV down)

and I guess you're right, if the pack lasts 5-6 years, I am sure they will have something, cheaper and better by then!!!

damn! forgot about that.. oh well.

Thanks for the input


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## glaurung (Nov 11, 2009)

Hi everybody!
I am doing my first conversion and one of the reasons is that ev has less moving parts to be repaired again and again.If i get the same mileage with less work i will be happy.I used to drive big Beamers and Range Rovers for several years. They go 100km with 13-18 liters of gas. Gas cost 1.35euros/ litre , so with 60 000km a year i do not think that ev will use as much money in batteries. I am building a bank for 120 km/charge and with halfway charging in work i hope to get over 3000cycles out. With bigger bank and less daily draining they might last even longer, if manufacturers can be trusted. 
Nowdays i am driving a crappy old diesel but hope to get back on track with ev and continiue(? is that a word) convinient transportation  .

I will start a thread soon when i begin dismantling donor.

Harri


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## Guest (Jan 15, 2010)

It is a relative thing. 

My Conversion is only cost $3500
Someone else's may have cost $12000

Mine is cheaper to operate than the other one and both get better mileage than an ICE

A New Prius lets say is $28000 and you still have to feed it gasoline at $3 per gallon. 

Which is cheaper? They could all be cheaper but what are you basing your cheaper wtih. A Hummers cost and cost to operate and maintain or an old VW? See! 

Pete


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## Guest (Jan 15, 2010)

Do you need another Car or do you want another Car. If you need a car and can build an EV to suit the requirements of that need then the EV will be cheaper if your cost to build is less than or equal to the cost of a new/used gas or hybrid vehicle. If you want an EV then you will be spending money on a Hobby not a need.


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## Stunt Driver (May 14, 2009)

EVs are more than just a vehicle - it's an inspiration, and a toy!

I have Aptera reserved mostly for the way it looks and features, and yet, at $35k it hardly pays back.

However, topicstarter didn't account for maintnance costs.

I own a 2000 Dodge Dakota truck, paid $2500 a year ago. At the minimum, 3 times a year I need to change oil ($30), and I used to spend $70 on gas (driving average of 16 miles a day). Once, all of the sudden, transmission contorol went out - had to replace speed sensor - $120. Now belt pulley is screaming noisy - $80 cheapest on internet, and I guess antoher $$ for labor, unless I get dirty myself. So over a year, just maintnance+oil+fuel I paid $1000, and still have screaming tensioner pulley.


I have converted Pontiac Fiero, Used forklift motor, and cheap 72v controller. Only 7 of 12v batteries get me up to 40 MPH confortably, and are enough for 10-13 miles on a charge. However, at work - I plug car in, same as at home.
7 of MAXX29 from Wallmart were $595, and have 18months free replacement. So I rely at least for 3 years of service.

Also, I have built in ceramic heater, that runs of AC when car is plugged in, and timer+thermostat keep car warm by the time I return. Which I LIKE ALOT!

And it's a great toy!


So my conclusion - EV has to be purposly built, to be used for daily commute. Do not try to invest $8000 in batateries, and hope it pays back on your 5-7 miles commute to work. It would be perfect as second car in family of 2.




ps in starting post you didn't account correctly for size of pack - $8000 battery pack will give you 60-70 miles on a charge, that is equivalent of $3000 worth of gas, but only $700-900 worth of electricity.


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## Guest (Jan 15, 2010)

No car pays back. It is all a matter of what you are willing to spend for your transportation needs and if you want to go with electric, gas, or what ever is available. For me it is a matter of fun, I also want to do less polluting and want a car that does not stink. It is within the range of what I am willing to spend on personal transportation. Like I said earlier. It is all relative. 

Pete


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## tomofreno (Mar 3, 2009)

> Here is the sad part if buying a manufactured EV or hybrid. It will not pay off in fuel savings. You are paying extra to feel warm and fuzzy.


 Sad. Oh so sad.


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## IamIan (Mar 29, 2009)

mrcshbs said:


> Just an example, I could spend 3000 dollars and get an ICE that may last for 100.000 miles or so and only get a battery bank that will last 40.000 miles for the same price. (pay the same price for both)


That just ignores all the additional regular service costs that the ICE will need.

That battery pack is effectively maintenance free... you supply electric fuel and it goes.

If all you did was supply fuel to the ICE you will kill it in less than 1 year and you will never reach 100,000 miles.

I guess the difference is that the Battery option is a one large cost ... initially and then again 5 or 10 years latter.... while the ICE might also need changed in the same time period but it will also need allot of work and cost put into it regularly over that period of time.

That also is a relative thing ... there are still Rav4 EVs on the road today with their original NiMH battery packs ... some ~13 years of service and still going with over 150,000 miles on the original NiMH battery pack.

So yes depending on the specifics of the battery pack and the BMS and such it might last 5 years or less... or it might last 13+ Years... depending on the specifics you might end up with ~20,000 miles from the batteries or over 150,000 miles... and those specifics make a massive difference in the numbers when you crunch them.



mrcshbs said:


> I guess we need disposable EV's ...
> 
> I think another scenario will be: when Electric vehicles become popular, and eventually replace the gas engine, EV dealers will have some type of trade in offer so people can trade in Depleted battery EV's and walk out with a new EV and new batteries. Just like they do with ICE today.


Disposable = Bad 

Second option is better ... 

As EVs become more wide spread the energy impact / use ... and cost of the battery packs will continue to go down... recycling will get better and better ... etc... etc...

Attached link I find easy to help describe to people the difference in $ per Mile between EVs and ICEs...

EVMPG


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## Guest (Jan 16, 2010)

tomofreno said:


> Sad. Oh so sad.


No more sad than buying a gasser and polluting the very air you breath. Each of us are guilty of that. So are you going to remain sad or do something. Feeling warm and fuzzy is good. It is one step towards a clean environment. If someone else sees you doing it then maybe they will too. They that person has another decide and it grows. That is how it happens. Word of mouth is a great seller. I do my part in more than one area. I am not totally petroleum free or pollution free but we are getting closer. One step at a time. No car pays in fuel costs and no car ever pays for itself. We spend according to our needs and ability. If I can afford a Prius and you can only afford a converted VW then that is great. What I do is great too. It is a step. That is all that's needed. 

What steps are you taking?

My wife and I do these:
Recycling: Yes
Reusing: Yes
Reducing: Yes
Solar Electric: Yes
Electric Vehcile: Yes

You?


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## Stunt Driver (May 14, 2009)

IamIan said:


> So yes depending on the specifics of the battery pack and the BMS and such it might last 5 years or less... or it might last 13+ Years...


That is why i'd like to own my battery. I believe that I will take good care about it, and it will last. I don't mind thinking of batterie's health, instead of thinklessly zooming down the street


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## gss99 (Dec 31, 2009)

Those of you who have electric cars, do you take them out almost everyday just for fun since it's pretty cheap to drive? Actually, you'd probably get your money's worth more if you did take it out everyday as apposed to Gasoline engine where it's better to conserve it.


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## Voltswagen (Nov 13, 2008)

"Is an EV more expensive than a gas vehicle?"

If the EV is a Tesla.....probably....yes.
If the Gas vehicle is a Maserati......probably....no.

Like Pete said................"It's all relative".

Some people like Rhubarb Pie.......some don't.

The question should be: "Is an EV less expensive to operate than a gas vehicle traveling the same yearly distance?"

What I find interesting is that people's mouths drop open when I explain that I spent $8,000.00 on a Lithium battery pack. But these same people will go out and drop $30,000.00 on a new BMW and never give it a second thought.

The $8,000.00 I spent is part of the total cost of my car.
What part of the $30,000.00 they spent will save them on fuel costs?
What part of the $30,000.00 they spent will result in cleaner air?

The new generation of Lithiums which I ordered are LiFeYPo. At 70% DOD
the manufacturer claims 5000 recharge cycles. At 80% DOD....3000 cycles. .......we'll see.

My wife will be the principle driver of my car.
Her daily commute is 16 miles round trip.....lets add another 4 miles a day for groceries, beer  ,doctor visits, etc.
So 20 miles per day.........100 per week for her. Lets say I take the car on the weekends and travel 80 miles per day going to car shows, the beach etc.........add another 160 miles......so it travels 260 miles per week x 52 weeks = 13,520 miles per yr.
My car with Lithiums will have a conservative range of about 80 miles per charge and lets say it's at 80% DOD. 13,520 miles divided by 80 = 169 recharges per yr.
What if the manufacturer lied and I only get half....1500 cycles  at 80% DOD

1500 cycles divided by 169 = 8.875 years
Lets call it 9 years.........or $888.00 per yr. ($8,000.00 divided by 9) and another $135.00 for electricity (I only charge the car at night when the rates are discounted by 40%) so a total of $1,023.00 per yr.

Now lets estimate the gasoline cost using a very generous 25mpg .
(this is where it gets relative.....a Honda might get 35mpg......a Hummer? ....don't even go there).
13,520 miles divided by 25mpg = 540.8 gallons.........540 gallons x $2.79gal = $1506.60
in fuel cost 
And we haven't even added in the extra money needed to maintain the ICE.

I once did a comparison between my wife's 2003 Beetle and my LA powered 1977 Beetle. 
My cost about 2.5 cents per mile (excluding the cost of the car)......her cost about .13 cents per mile (Gas & Maintenance and also excluding the cost of the car).

Don't let anyone tell you an EV is more expensive to operate.

Roy


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## Guest (Jan 18, 2010)

> What I find interesting is that people's mouths drop open when I explain that I spent $8,000.00 on a Lithium battery pack. But these same people will go out and drop $30,000.00 on a new BMW and never give it a second thought.


Love it.


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## mrcshbs (Nov 25, 2008)

WOW...

very well put.


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## icec0o1 (Sep 3, 2009)

Here's how I calculate it:

200 ah thundersky = 220 + 10% = $242
3.2v * 200 = 640wh 
640wh * 80% * 3000 cycles = 1536000 wh over its lifetime
1536000 / 300 wh/mile = 5120 miles that this battery alone will propel the car over its lifetime
5120 miles / 30mpg (decent econ car) = 170 gallons of gas
170 * $2.73 (current price, will go up in the summer) = $464.1

So the battery cost $242 including delivery and it'll save you from buying $464 dollars of gas over its lifetime (Assuming 300wh/mile which is a smaller car, not an suv but then again I don't know too many 30mpg suv's).


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## Voltswagen (Nov 13, 2008)

Ice
Thats a good way to figger it.
Also, we're being way too generous on the mpg of the ICE.
We calculate "Overall" mileage for the EV but only Top EPA Highway mileage for the ICE.

My daughter has a 2008 HHR. EPA Highway mileage is 30mpg.
She has the onboard computer which calculates everything including:
"Overall" average mpg. Her average is 23mpg combined city and highway.
That is a more realistic number.


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## IamIan (Mar 29, 2009)

Voltswagen said:


> Ice
> Thats a good way to figger it.
> Also, we're being way too generous on the mpg of the ICE.


I like to look at MPG numbers for a given vehicle and then compare it to the Miles/kwh numbers other people get who convert the same model car.

That way it is a closer comparison.

Conveniently every car has average MPG ratings... and so any conversion that does the same thing lets me compare the gas to electric version of the same model car.

Of course individuals driving skill will vary ... true with M/G and M/Kwh.


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## IamIan (Mar 29, 2009)

icec0o1 said:


> Here's how I calculate it:
> 
> 200 ah thundersky = 220 + 10% = $242
> 3.2v * 200 = 640wh
> ...



Nice method ... and that 1,536kWh you claculated over that estimated life time... at the current 2009 National average cost of ~$0.1021 per kwh = $156.83 worth of electricity... +$242 for the battery = ~$398.83 initial cost + cost of all the electricity kwh that battery will use over that life estimate... which is still ~16% cheaper... and the gasoline hasn't had to pay for any ICE , maintenance , etc...


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## TigerNut (Dec 18, 2009)

I guess it all depends on the ICE you're comparing against. 
I'm currently in the EV-wannabe category. Based near Calgary, Alberta, the main challenges for me are 5% to 8% grades on my 20-km commute, and winter weather, where the temperatures can dip to -40 occasionally and be -20C for several weeks at a time.

My commuter car is a 2001 Toyota Echo. In the wintertime I get about 700 km from 40 litres of gas; in the summer I've seen over 750, without any hypermiling shenanigans, and including the 3 km, 7% average climb out of Cochrane 5 days a week. That's a real-world 43 miles per US gallon.

I don't know that an EV would necessarily offer me lower operating costs - for me it would be about the technical challenge of doing the conversion.


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## dtbaker (Jan 5, 2008)

The best answer is 'it depends'....

If you try hard to compare apples to apples for a specific use and specific vehicle fitting that use, I do think we are at a point where the operating cost of the EV is usually very close to gas. If fact I think it is now a wash for the typical lead-acid in-town 40 mile max per day EV, but perhaps even LESS expensive for a LiFePO4 conversion.

I base my comparison on my first conversion project... the '97 suzuki swift. In ICE format it got right around 40 miles/gallon, so I use that as the yardstick. After conversion I magically got 40 miles at 80% DOD (although my typical day is closer to 20 miles or less). The cost of the 12 x 8v deep cycle golf floodies (96v system w/ aprox 100ah at 1 hr rate) was $1500.

So, if my actual average use was 50% DOD, I think it is 'fair' to assume about 750 charge cycles according to specs with 'good maintenance'. So the amortised cost of the Pb batteries is around $2.00 per 20 miles, plus 10kWhr at the wall for $.90, so say $2.90 per 20 miles. Compared to current cost of gas (today) which is $2.65, plus annual ICE maintenance including oil changes and averaged cost to replace belts, plugs, filters, etc.... It's probably 'really close'.

If you work the same car with a similar capacity Li system (30x100ah) for $1.10/ah plus S&H for about $4000.... which is supposed to get maybe 3000 cycles at 50% DOD = $1.33 'per 20 mile cycle' plus the same $.90, or maybe less because of lower weight, and the daily cost starts looking like $2.20 per day cycle, which is 'better' but still depends on what you consider the true cost of the ICE, plus maintenance, plus pollution, healthcare, and sending young people to war.


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## Voltswagen (Nov 13, 2008)

Dt
You say you got 40mpg with the ICE powered Swift but that surely couldn't be your combined mpg could it? 
We tend to rate our EV's only on "Combined" range and then compare that to the best Highway mpg of an ICE powered vehicle. We should be comparing combined to combined which would result in less mpg for the ICE.
Roy


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## dtbaker (Jan 5, 2008)

Voltswagen said:


> Dt
> You say you got 40mpg with the ICE powered Swift but that surely couldn't be your combined mpg could it?
> We tend to rate our EV's only on "Combined" range and then compare that to the best Highway mpg of an ICE powered vehicle. We should be comparing combined to combined which would result in less mpg for the ICE.
> Roy



That is comparing exact same daily driving pattern 'combined' which is mostly gently but significantly E-W sloped (Santa Fe, NM) 35-45mph 'suburban arterials' with some stops every 1/2 mile or so, some 25mph, and some 50mph doing daily errands. The ICE when I bought it w/ 130k miles was getting an average right around 40mpg... same car, same route, same errands after conversion (weighing 2490#) I got a pretty consistent 40 mile max range (to establish 80%DOD), but rarely go more than 20 per day. I got a pretty average recharge measured w/ kill-a-watt meter of .4kWhr per mile travelled.... but this includes all losses in charger plus a standard Pb 'balance cycle' after target voltage is reached the first time.


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## roflwaffle (Sep 9, 2008)

mrcshbs said:


> Hello to all,
> First of all, I would like to say that I am an EV fanatic and have done several conversions myself… but one question has been pondering me.
> 
> PLEASE, correct me if I am wrong. Now, I have rounded all numbers to make it simple. Ok?


One big thing offhand. LA batteries are rated for their 20 hour discharge rate, so if we discharge them at the 1 hour rate we tend to get way fewer ah than if we had discharged them at the 20 hour rate. As a rule of thumb, most modestly priced LA batteries will only deliver a little more than half of what they're rated for at 20 hours in an EV, so the pack should be up size appropriately. More expensive LAs can have much better Peukert exponents, but they also approach the cost of LFPs and still weight a lot more.

In general, whether or not an EV is more cost effective than a conventional car depends on the specifics. Sometimes the car is cheaper, usually when it's primarily operated on highways and engine efficiency is high, and sometimes the EV is cheaper, usually when compared to a car operated in the city where engine efficiency tends to be relatively poor. Right now, LFP batteries are around $450/kWh, and can supposedly pull 5000 cycles to 70% dod. This is equivalent to ~3500 full cycles, so the batteries would cost ~$450/3500=~13c/kWh. For a small car that would mean battery costs are ~4c/mile. Electricity would be another ~2-3c/mile. This would equal the cost of a similar car getting ~40mpg, which is reasonable. There will also be a ~2c/mile (maybe more) savings in maintenance costs w/ an EV, but these could be wiped out if the batteries only last half of what they're rated for, say ~2500 cycles to 70% dod.

All told, for anyone who can build their own EV, it's pretty much a wash compared to a conventional gas car IMO. Depending on the circumstances, the EV could be a few cents/mile cheaper, or maybe it'll be a wash. If someone is doing only highway commutes or the batteries due prematurely (only make it to ~1000 cycles), the EV could even be more expensive, but most people don't use 'em for stuff like that so that's probably not as much of an issue.


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## gor (Nov 25, 2009)

is ICE less expensive? - sure, - providing gas prices never go up...
nex time it hit $5-6 per gallon (US) ... it would be different argument : ))))


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## Voltswagen (Nov 13, 2008)

Rolfwaffle
Your example relies on an ICE getting 40mpg.
How many of us drive a vehicle which gets that kind of gas mileage?
According to the US DOT......the current national fleet average is about 25mpg 
http://www.dot.gov/affairs/dot3609.htm

Roy


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## dtbaker (Jan 5, 2008)

Voltswagen said:


> Rolfwaffle
> Your example relies on an ICE getting 40mpg.
> How many of us drive a vehicle which gets that kind of gas mileage?



two points here.... How many of us SHOULD be driving a car that only gets 25 mpg for our 'around town' errands? I do just fine shopping, errands, kids to school and activities... all in the Swift which fits 2 adults and 3 small kids with room for backpacks, groceries, etc. No, it is not a car to take on a long trip or ski vacation, but is just fine around town.

My example uses the same car, same trips, same use for about the closest apples-to-apples comparision you can get for 'true cost'. My answer is that in my current Pb (really good 8v deep cycles) the cost is pretty close to a wash. In my second (which is the exact same car) but will be 120v-100ah LiFePO4 I think that the actual operational cost will be less... 

all at today's gas price which are unlikely to stay where it is for the next ten years.


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## MN Driver (Sep 29, 2009)

...right but the cars that get less than 25mpg are going to be worse candidates for an electric car conversion due to the increased cost of the batteries that need to go into them in order to provide a similar range. Unless of course the engines in those <25mpg cars were far larger than they should be for the application.

When I plan my conversion, the idea will be to use a car that has a low native curb weight of <2000 lbs. and good aerodynamics because I'll be driving it on the highway. I don't need the room so I'll be getting more range for my money and also use less space and money for the battery. My goal is 100 miles in the occasional pinch that might put me in between 80-90% DoD. Most of the time I'll be using half that so I'll likely be able to engineer things so that I don't need to top the batteries to the brim and won't be bringing it below 60% DoD making my pack last longer. The larger Ah batteries should also mean that I'm taxing my cells less. I've done the math and posted it here 3 times already, I think, I'd dig it up and post it again but it comes out to being less than half the cost assuming I can get a reasonable life out of them, it will be even less than half the cost with gas prices above the $2.xx point, which by the time the cells wear out, I'm convinced we will be well beyond the days of $2/gallon gasoline.

Like pretty much everything that has variables that we can't control in life, time will tell, but doing basic math, it looks like it will be significantly cheaper to run electric over time.

With the leaf and Volt arriving, in 10 years I see myself buying a used one just like I'm doing with a Honda Insight now because we've already got the DIY community replacing and rebuilding those hybrid packs. We've already got projects with LiFePO4 replacing the standard NiMh at a higher capacity making PHEVs that can go 150 uk mpg for over 100 miles with 50 40Ah cells, which is a venture I've been critically thinking to duplicate. So we have a good in between option already that saves a great deal of money for those who can't stomach the range anxiety, who, for some reason, think that their EV needs to go 500 miles on a charge... I think it's mostly from those who are scared to adopt something that doesn't sound, feel, or act like what they are used to. The media likes to feed into that attitude too, but television news media just likes to scare people for ratings as it is anyway since that is their job.


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## Voltswagen (Nov 13, 2008)

Dt
We all should be driving cars which get 40mpg.
Problem was that there just weren't that many to choose from over the past 10 yrs. which would fit a family of 5.
My wife is currently driving a 2003 Beetle getting 30mpg Highway. This was a big step up in mpg for us changing from a 1998 S10 Blazer which got about 22mpg Highway. We bought the Blazer because it seats 5, the size of our family. But now that our two oldest kids are both driving, we don't need all that room so the 4 seater Beetle will suffice.

I agree that your Swift both as an ICE and an EV is a good economical choice but according to the DOT, the Swift's mpg is the exception rather than the rule.

If the national average mpg is at 25, almost everyone would benefit by switching to an EV. In your case it's a wash but nationally....it's not.
Roy


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## dtbaker (Jan 5, 2008)

Well, my little 'Zappy' is real, close to a wash at today's gas price, and I'm GRINNING.

Also, because I generate my own electricity w/ PV, I basically get paid for the electricity and don't have to feel bad about fossil-powered juice. Not that many people have the tandem setup, but I heard that a surprising percentage of EV drivers DO lso have some PV or windpower.


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## dtbaker (Jan 5, 2008)

Voltswagen said:


> Dt
> We all should be driving cars which get 40mpg.
> Problem was that there just weren't that many to choose from over the past 10 yrs. which would fit a family of 5.


well... also according to DOT, the majority of families have multiple cars, and at least one of the vehicle's average use is with one or two passengers less than 40 miles per day.

My point is that there HAVE been Swift's, Civics, Metro's, and several other sub-compacts all along... but our perception (myself included) has been that we couldn't possibly function in such a small car.

We are a family of four, kids currently 8 and 11, and I am well aware of all the typical after school activities, soccer, errands, etc. I have discovered that the Swift works for all that mid-week stuff! There are weeks where our minivan sits in the driveway and doesn't move except for trips or hauling 'stuff'. 

I am just starting my second conversion, and when done we will sell our second ICE and have the mini-van for trips... and two EVs for in town. Daughter doesn't start driving for a few years.


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## Voltswagen (Nov 13, 2008)

MN Driver
There are numerous bus companies converting and building Electric Buses.
If they can make a bus run economically on Lithium.......why not larger cars? Their accountants have run the numbers and if it weren't a gain.....I doubt they would invest the money. 

Also, I have been reading recently about the advantages of using an AC Motor over a DC. Yes, the initial cost is more but the gains over a long period outweigh that cost. Kinda like the new Lithium batts.

Roy


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## Voltswagen (Nov 13, 2008)

Dt
I couldn't afford to run my house totally on PV. 
But I did recently install a Solar Hot Water System. Total cost, installing it myself, $4,000.00 and Obama owes me a 30% Federal Tax Credit. 
Which will drop the total cost to about $2,800.00

We need bigger tax incentives for EV's.

Roy


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## dtbaker (Jan 5, 2008)

Voltswagen said:


> MN Driver
> There are numerous bus companies converting and building Electric Buses.
> If they can make a bus run economically on Lithium.......why not larger cars?


Li vs Pb is one aspect... and I think that Li is now the cheaper solution over a 10 year life, which is why I am going that route for my second car.

Buses are a whole different deal.... with far more weight, and far more start/stops, it makes sense to use AC motors for regen. Buses ALSO have room to use big capacitors to catch and return the stop energy. The caps don't wear out (millions of cycles) but are too big, heavy, and expensive for low-mileage residential use.

With cars, they type of driving you do might well determine whether it is better to go AC or DC from a cost/benefit. I hate throwing away braking energy, but with my driving needs I think I'd only get maybe 5-10% range improvement with regen, so it is fr more cost effective to buy a little more (Lithium) battery range and go with the simpler and less expensive DC.


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## dtbaker (Jan 5, 2008)

Voltswagen said:


> Dt
> I couldn't afford to run my house totally on PV.
> But I did recently install a Solar Hot Water System. Total cost, installing it myself, $4,000.00 and Obama owes me a 30% Federal Tax Credit.
> Which will drop the total cost to about $2,800.00
> ...


amen on all counts!

I was lucky to scrape up, beg, borrow, save enough for a 5kW PV system which zeroes out my annual electric INCLUDING one EV. I have been working almost 2 years now with State Legislature to enable Residential 'special tax assessment districts' for people to obtain no-qualification, no-down, and reasonable rate loans for Solar which is paid back thru Property taxes over 20 years. The beauty is that it does not touch personal credit and stays with the house.

Once you get a PV system up, it is just great... State and Fed tax credits, plus local utility 'buys' my power credits for their renewable portfolio, plus my meter goes backward. System should pay for itself in about 11 years, and then its all gravy.....

This year i am going to attempt to file for tx credit on EV conversion, but I think it is only 10% of cost.


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## MN Driver (Sep 29, 2009)

Roy, I wasn't trying to say that it wasn't a bad idea, its just a bigger pill to swallow, so to speak, to pay for but in the long run it should be great. What I was trying to say was that sizing to ones needs rather than to use that free donor SUV just because it was free and an SUV is probably not the best idea for someone who will only drive it to work and back without needed the space. I'm all for a battery bus. I think that San Francisco's Muni is one of the coolest bus systems I've ever had the chance to ride in with the overhead lines everywhere, they have tons of power to climb those hills too.

Nice job with the solar water setup, is there any insulation on the pipe that I see behind you though?


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## Voltswagen (Nov 13, 2008)

Thanks MN
Yes, there is insulation on that copper pipe now and all the way down to the storage tank and back. The pic was taken just after I filled the system and had not yet insulated it.

To make a Solar Hot Water System economically feasible, you have to have high hot water demands. We have 5 people living in my house and the old system heated hot water with electricity. I live rurally, so no natural gas out here.
When you have 5 people taking a shower every day, 2-3 loads of laundry each day....the dishwasher every night....the bill really gets up there.

My system has been up and running for 5 months now and the comparative savings is running about $50 - 60.00 per month.
At that rate it will pay for itself in about 4 years and we have completed another project which will benefit the planet for many years. 
Roy


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## RKM (Jun 9, 2008)

Roy,

This thread is running OT, but I'm going to chirp in anyway!

I like what you've done with the solar hot water. I'm in a similar situation wrt hot water demand, five people (including teenagers!). I'm looking into a similar setup. Originally, I had thought that an evacuated tube system like yours would be the way to go for Northern climate. Then, I was shown a study to the contrary that suggests the flat panel will perform better. One reason is that the evacuated tube is so efficient, snow will not melt off of the tubes, thus reducing heat absorption.

Our electricity costs 6.7 cents a Kw, so the payback will not be as quick. I wish Canadians had the kind of financial incentive that Americans enjoy!

I commend what you've done...every bit helps.

Rob


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## Voltswagen (Nov 13, 2008)

Thanks Rob
How's things in Downtown Canada?

It has only snowed twice here since I installed the system but one of the storms was quite deep for New Jersey. About 18 inches. Probably a dusting up where you are. 

The evacuated tubes shed that snow quite well as there is about an inch and a half space between each tube but snow buildup at the foot of each frame on the roof is a different story. I probably should have elevated the bottom of the frames a good foot or so and then added the 30 degree angle from there.
But you are right, they don't melt snow. Luckily we don't get that much snow here. Of course having said that we'll have 6 Blizzards before spring. I'm wondering tho how a flat panel with say 2-3 feet of snow on it will melt it off?
Let me know.
Roy


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## dtbaker (Jan 5, 2008)

totally off-topic now, but still fun. 

I have three different style mounts for my PV. 'Large array', standard ballast, and a wall mounted awning. Awning is the best by far since it sheds the snow and does not build up at the foot... and gives summer shade for south windows.

I am considering relocating panels to ground mount with tracking after I finish second EV. I would get 30-40% more kWhr with same panels and invertor... but have to add cost of tracking ground mount install and hope I could sell my other mounts to somebody thru the installer perhaps. Only problem is clearing southern exposure and protecting my dogs and kids from panels, and panels from kids balls and frisbees.


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## RKM (Jun 9, 2008)

Voltswagen said:


> Thanks Rob
> How's things in Downtown Canada?
> 
> It has only snowed twice here since I installed the system but one of the storms was quite deep for New Jersey. About 18 inches. Probably a dusting up where you are.
> ...


Roy,

Continuing on the grossly off topic theme, and since you asked how things are, I thought I'd show you a few photos from my front door this morning.

How are these for awe inspiring? This is enough inspiration for me to do what I can to help protect our environment.

Actually, the prairie provinces tend to have cold and dry winters. We can get big dumps of snow but usually we'll have only 6-12 inches of ground cover. We're too far from large bodies of water to get consistent heavy snow.

I've seen a tube array 2/3 covered after a 6 inch snow fall. We'll likely put in a flat panel array this summer after I do some more research. Will let you know.

Take care.

Rob


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## Voltswagen (Nov 13, 2008)

Dt
Maybe an administrator might want to move this part of the thread.
Tell me more about your tracking system.


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## Voltswagen (Nov 13, 2008)

Rob
Beautiful pictures!
Maybe an administrator might move this part of the thread to Chit Chat?


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## dtbaker (Jan 5, 2008)

I don't have tracking :yet:. Mine are all fixed, visit www.envirokarma.org for pictures..... We get 300+ days of sun in NM, so PV is a slam dunk. I am considering tracking after second EV is online so I can get more production with same panels.


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## roflwaffle (Sep 9, 2008)

Voltswagen said:


> Rolfwaffle
> Your example relies on an ICE getting 40mpg.
> How many of us drive a vehicle which gets that kind of gas mileage?
> According to the US DOT......the current national fleet average is about 25mpg
> ...


I do, but yeah, that's true for the most part. That said, if we're comparing apples and apples then that's what we should use. If we go w/ a fleet average of 25mpg, we would have to include big cars/trucks sucking down ~400-500Wh/mile, so even though the mileage is a lot less, the electricity consumption will be proportionally higher too, w/ the same result overall AFAIK.


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## Voltswagen (Nov 13, 2008)

Roflwaffle
I need practice pronouncing your name.

The DOT National Fleet average is based on cars and light trucks only.

It would only be the same result if the number of converted trucks equalled the number of converted cars. But you and I both know thats not the case so lets open a couple of beers instead.

If we look at the overall number of conversions say on EV Album they are mostly light cars usually less than 3000 lbs.

Also the new Nissan Leaf and BMW Electrics are both under 3000 lbs. which for now is probably going to be the standard weight of a mass produced EV unless the energy density of Lithiums gets much better in the future.
Cheers - Roy


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## IamIan (Mar 29, 2009)

Voltswagen said:


> Rolfwaffle
> Your example relies on an ICE getting 40mpg.
> How many of us drive a vehicle which gets that kind of gas mileage?
> According to the US DOT......the current national fleet average is about 25mpg
> Roy


There are a few ... the Gen-I Honda Insight comes to mind. 

Although from what I've read... Those that have been converted to EV are getting a combined average of ~6 Miles per Kwh... so they kind of raise the bar for the ICE and the EV both.

I also think the cost of operation is clearly on the side of the EV... The initial costs are the only place the ICE has any room to talk... in terms of long term cost of ownership.

But the ICE doesn't talk in comparison to the electric motor... because the ICE itself and its required systems , cooling system , controls , etc... comparing motor to motor... the EV wins hands down ... It actually costs less to make , and lasts much much longer.

Of all the systems in a car... the only place the ICE makes any comeback ... is the fuel system.... A Battery and related system , is much much more expensive , weighs more, uses more space etc... than the simple and cheap plastic gas tank and fuel pump of an ICE.

Granted the ICE makes up allot of room with the cost of the fuel storage container system... but for my point of view ... it doesn't make up enough room to close the gap.

Especially in a well designed and built system.

Of course it will still depend on the specifics as to where the break even points are between the two.

---------------

Aside from the cost to the individual ... the Additional Infrastructure costs to feed all our gas stations is a giant waste of resources ... money , energy, time , space, etc...

People love to talk about the time it takes to charge a battery... who cares... it isn't my time... Fueling a ICE eats more of the Owners time than Fueling a EV does.

There are other examples to... and for me... it isn't even close... the EV wins hands down... by a large margin.


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## roflwaffle (Sep 9, 2008)

Voltswagen said:


> Roflwaffle
> I need practice pronouncing your name.
> 
> The DOT National Fleet average is based on cars and light trucks only.
> ...


I need help pronouncing it too! 

EVAlbum isn't very good for comparisons because it's full of all sorts of conversions and driving routes/styles. A small car can be anywhere from ~200Wh/mile to almost ~500Wh/mile.

To get a good idea, just compare two more or less identical cars. An auto mini pulls about 28mpg, so it needs about 40% more fuel than a 40mpg car. A mini EV is at more than 300Wh/mile, and consumes roughly as much (A bit more actually) energy compared to a 200Wh/mile EV as a standard mini does compared to a 40mpg car. The financial justification for a comparable EV is just not very strong, if present at all. Not to say there aren't plenty of other reasons to have one, but I don't think people should kid themselves about costs. Small cars can be had that pull 40+mpg easy. I've only been able to drive my VW below 40mpg once IIRC, and driving slowly I can get ~60mpg. Something like a Metro Xfi, Civic VX Hb, or an Insight can pull better numbers.


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## Voltswagen (Nov 13, 2008)

Rofull faffle....uh...Roll what full...uhhhhhh......hey you!

60mpg!!!!!!!!!!!!!! 

I wanna have your baby!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Seriously......what year and model is your VW?


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## ewert (Sep 5, 2009)

Not the one you asked the question of, but I had a Skoda Fabia 2005 (same conglomerate so pretty much identical to a VW Polo, until the ex-wife wrecked it) with 1.4 TDI PD engine. My best traveling consumption was once on a I guess a 250-300km stretch about 73mpg. Once driving home from the shops I had 78mpg. Average year round (think cold winters) was still over 50mpg ...


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## Voltswagen (Nov 13, 2008)

ewert
So what did you replace the vehicle with?


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## ewert (Sep 5, 2009)

The most ecological solution of all: I live like 700m from my workplace now and only have a bicycle.  Use the train (think pretty much all of Finland's train network is electric nowadays) to go to the nearest big city.

Was thinking of doing an EV motorcycle, but as weight is even more crucial on bikes and current tech on batteries being so fastly changing in kWh per kg and per euro, that I will most likely buy a 250cc Ninja next spring ... the nearest big town where the kids and my parents live is about 100km away, which for a motorcycle is still a bit borderline weightwise in batteries unless paying topdollars ...


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## roflwaffle (Sep 9, 2008)

Voltswagen said:


> Rofull faffle....uh...Roll what full...uhhhhhh......hey you!
> 
> 60mpg!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
> 
> ...


82 VW Rabbit diesel. the drivetrain is from an 81 since it lasted longer than the car.


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## Jesse67 (May 12, 2009)

Excellent topic, From what I've been able to learn about Lipo4s is that the 5000 cyles at 70% dod brings the battery to 80% of its original capacity. So, a 100 ah cell after 5000 cycles to 70% dod will still have an 80 ah capacity. This is by no means dead! Its just derated. This is just slightly reduced max range. It may take another 5000 to bring it to 50% at which point it will definitly be less usefull. From there it could still be used in a home PV system for energy storage where size/weight are less important and the pack could have another 5 years of use. This of course all depends on the calendar life of the batteries but its not like the pack just stops working at 3000 or 5000 cycles. If you are always running your pack to 80% dod with your daily commute and can't take a slight drop in max range you probably should have started with a bigger pack. 

Now I don't have any actual experience as to how a lipo4 pack with 5000 cycles performs but I don't think anyone else here does either. Lead acid is a different story, 

So for the LA guys what happens when your pack hits ~500 cycles or so? Does it just loose range, or do individual batteries start quitting or loosing charge? From my limited experience with general car batteries it always seems like they quit working over a fairly short period of time... 

For people with LiPo4 packs how many cycles are you up to? Has anyone noticed any drop in range or performance?

Any other insight into the above issues? First hand experience? 

Cheers

Jesse


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## Guest (Jan 20, 2010)

figured it might be a diesel. I love my 01 Beetle TDI. 




roflwaffle said:


> 82 VW Rabbit diesel. the drivetrain is from an 81 since it lasted longer than the car.


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## Voltswagen (Nov 13, 2008)

Jesse
I agree. If anyone is constantly running any pack down to 80% or more........the pack is undersized for the vehicle. 
I expect to be recharging my LiFeYPO pack less than 200 times per yr.
At that rate and careful management it could last over 15 yrs. or more.
The life of the car right? No one really knows for sure. 
And yes, even at 50% ah left..........the pack could be used for stationary storage in another application.
Roy


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## pyrogaz (Jan 3, 2010)

I've been toying with the idea of a conversion for a while, probably a Fiat Seicento as it would only be used for the 26 mile round trip into town for shopping and other errands. 

I'd worked out the running costs on the basis of 50mpg @ £5.45/gallon so 10.9pence/mile. The little Fiat should be able to achieve 250Whr/mile as it's a reasonably flat journey and no stops, so at £0.13/Kwh and 80% charge efficiency I get 4.1pence/mile leaving 6.8pence/mile for batteries. That's not including ICE related costs, for instance an exhaust never lasts more than 18 months (lots of sea spray in the air and council gritters on the roads), at 7k miles per year and £120 for an exhaust that's already 1pence/mile before we get onto oil, filters, servicing, etc.

Strikes me that the economics of a conversion can vary greatly depending on where you are in the world.


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## Voltswagen (Nov 13, 2008)

pyrogaz
Yes, your petrol is much more expensive than here in the land of Coca Cola. 

It does matter where you live.


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## ffaabuddha (Feb 24, 2010)

i just joined and started reading all of this today but i'd like to throw my 2 cents in. when it comes to cost of gas vs electricity, electricity would win for me. i drive a 92 f150 with a 5.0L V8. I spend between $200 and $250 a month in gas. That equates to $2400-$3000 a year in gas alone.


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## favguy (May 2, 2008)

Hi Pyrogaz,
If you were to use and charge an EV daily, and you don't hhave a huge electic pull during the day, such as storagge heating etc. You can switch to an off peak tariff and chharge during night time hours for 4p per Kwh or so, at the expense of paying slightly more during thhe day, would get the running cost down a bit more that way 

As for this debate, whichever way you work it, at present a decent EV build will cost more over the lifetime of the vehicle to run than an economical diesel car would, even at our obsene UK fuel costs. Building an EV is for the love of it at present, not saving money!

Paul


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## IamIan (Mar 29, 2009)

favguy said:


> As for this debate, whichever way you work it, at present a decent EV build will cost more over the lifetime of the vehicle to run than an economical diesel car would, even at our obsene UK fuel costs. Building an EV is for the love of it at present, not saving money!
> 
> Paul


I agree that building an EV does not have to save money for people to want to do it... Air conditioning doesn't save us money either ... nor does TV ... we spend extra money for things we want... and I agree an EV can easily fall into that category.

I don't agree with the thought that there is no way for the EV to be a money saver.... but that is one of those things like DC vs AC ... that people agree on or they don't.

In any case I will agree with the other part ... we spend our money on lots of things that do not save us money in any way ... and for some people an EV easily fits his model.


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## Kelmark (Oct 26, 2009)

I thought I would add my thoughts on this subject as well. I think with what is available today EV would only be cheaper than ICE for cars that have top speed <65mph and a range <40 miles with moderate performance. Anything sportier, faster or longer range will cost more than ICE today unless gas prices climb faster than normal.

So why go electric? For me I wanted to build a show car that was unique so I would have dumped money into a car regardless, if I was looking for cost savings I would use a strong motor and put a small pack to start <30mile range. In 3-7 years upgrade the pack to better batteries. Everyone knows we are using up our oil to fast. And as we do, the price of fuel will go up. Companies need to improve their technology now, then mass produce to lower prices in the coming years. As gas prices increase to 4-5 dollars per gallon and battery prices go down longer range EV’s will be affordable in comparison to ICE’s.


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## glaurung (Nov 11, 2009)

Hi all!
I am starting a Range Rover conversion and when passing time in classic-car shop we calculated how much fuel would my car use in lifetime of one battery pack. I drive about 100km daily, fuel consumption is over 15litres for 100 km. Pack of right size should get 5000 cycles, so 500 000km. That makes 75 000 litres. In Finland it would be 106 500 euros, about 150 000 usd.
Based on this, i am very confident to say that ev made of normal size car is not more expensive than ice-vehicle.
This might be different for a small, economic urban commuter. Price and effort on converting are not so different, so bigger car gets better value in comparison. If yearly driven kilometres are low, not any of this might be relevant.
All things said, i will make my conversion and hope to use same money as in petrol car. If i use less it is considered as victory!
I think that most of us are here to make a difference (and have fun doing that).
Thanks, Harri


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## Kelmark (Oct 26, 2009)

This is just some quick figures;

$30 to fill 12g tank 

26mpg x 12g = 312 miles per tank

I fill up every other week or $60 per month 624 miles driven per month

7,488 miles driven per year

*EV*

3,500 cycle life (will vary by type & DOD) / 364 cycles per year = 9.61 years or 71,959 miles

*ICE *

80,000 miles / 312 per tank * $30 = $7,692 total fuel cost and is the amount I could spend on batteries and break even.

You can change the numbers around to fit your application, and this does not include the cost of the conversion. I am not estimating initial conversion cost just the cost of a battery pack equal to cost of fuel.


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## favguy (May 2, 2008)

Much as I'd like to see it proved, I don't think we can throw figures of expected cycle life in the 1000's for Lifepo just yet, the most anyone has got on them so far is in the region of hundreds, and quite often with tales of 1 or more cell failures, so the economics remain to be seen... 

Paul


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## IamIan (Mar 29, 2009)

favguy said:


> Much as I'd like to see it proved, I don't think we can throw figures of expected cycle life in the 1000's for Lifepo just yet, the most anyone has got on them so far is in the region of hundreds, and quite often with tales of 1 or more cell failures, so the economics remain to be seen...
> 
> Paul


I 90% agree ... the long term service life of the newer batteries is yet to be seen.

That having been said ... There have been studies that have run about ~30,000 cycles... the problem of most studies like that is how far the controlled conditions of the lab are compared to the real world... 

Real world has significant effects from temperature variation from summer to winter.

Real world has significant effects of non-constant loads... high surges of discharge and charge... under various temperatures and SoC.

Etc.... etc...

That having all been said ... we do already have real life results for NiMH lasting many thousands of cycles and 10+ years of service... so it is an option for EVs.

Of course there are pros and cons to all the battery types ... and I look forward to more real world long term data coming out on all of them as times goes by... especially with the current trend toward LiFePO4 we should in 5 to 10 years have several real world test beds reporting their real life service life / performance data.

Good Times


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## ffaabuddha (Feb 24, 2010)

i know this is off topic but does anyone know of a street driven ev that is geared more for performance? from what i've seen, most ev's top out around 50-55 mph and was wondering if any go over 100?


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## IamIan (Mar 29, 2009)

ffaabuddha said:


> i know this is off topic but does anyone know of a street driven ev that is geared more for performance? from what i've seen, most ev's top out around 50-55 mph and was wondering if any go over 100?


They are all over the place... many dozen different kinds now ... From the buy and drive Tesla's to the DIY White Zombies and all the shades of grey in between.

The electric motor beats the internal combustion engine in every type of performance you can think of... efficiency , size for a given power, weight for a given power, performance curves for torque or rpms ... etc....etc... The only thing EVs have historically struggled with is Batteries don't hold as much energy as gas tanks do ... but if you got the money , modern batteries could take you 200 to 300 miles per charge and some can be charged to over 80% in just a few minutes.


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## Guest (Feb 27, 2010)

ffaabuddha said:


> i know this is off topic but does anyone know of a street driven ev that is geared more for performance? from what i've seen, most ev's top out around 50-55 mph and was wondering if any go over 100?


Mine won't top 100 but I have had it up to 85 mph and I could have gone faster given more time. That is with an off the shelf conversion and only 96 volts. I bet if I could upgrade to 156 volts and lithium 200 amp hour pack I'd reach well over 100 mph and a cool 100 plus mile at speed commute. 

Pete


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## TheSGC (Nov 15, 2007)

I drive 34 miles a day, and using my ICE costs me about $90 a month, and using my EV costs me, personally, nothing for electricity. I charge it at school, and at my parent's house, but at the rates and times I charge it, the cost is usually less than $5 a month, and I can easily offset that by using the power saving mode on my desktop computer during the day. Yes, my desktop and related accessories are power hogs. And at school the physic's department's nuclear reactor powers all the EVs, along with the rooftop solar panels and wind mills.

But I really use my EV as a hobby that has a side effect of costing less to operate. Some of my friends build muscle cars, I build EVs. Difference is I get a dedicated parking spot.


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## favguy (May 2, 2008)

Your school has a nuclear reactor, is that for real??!!


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## dtbaker (Jan 5, 2008)

TheSGC said:


> Some of my friends build muscle cars, I build EVs. Difference is I get a dedicated parking spot.


...and the good karma, don't forget the fossil-less karma.


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## TheSGC (Nov 15, 2007)

favguy said:


> Your school has a nuclear reactor, is that for real??!!


Yes it does. It's small enough to power a building, and it does not show up on any satellite map. I had to get clearance to park because my EV sits right outside the building, next to the campus EVs and cops.

I haven't driven my EV since October due to overhaul, and it's sad having to walk by and see my spot open and no EV. I have to use my ICE and battle the commuter lot for parking. And to make it worse, there are 8 campus EVs, only none are in use at the moment, so I need to get my EV back there!

Here's a pic I took last fall when I first started to drive my EV and my dedicated spot: http://civicity.blogspot.com/2009/09/can-you-pick-out-ev.html


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## MN Driver (Sep 29, 2009)

TheSGC said:


> Yes it does. It's small enough to power a building, and it does not show up on any satellite map.


I saw a picture of a small nuclear reactor once, it was self-contained except for the thick wiring coming out of it, about the size of a couch with a very thick outer concrete shell and I was told the one that I saw could power "the standard load of a few houses". Apparently it was small enough to not produce enough heat to require active cooling and not need active management and was designed to be buried underground and essentially use the soil surrounding it as a heat sink. I figure the load of a few houses was some sort of calculation for average load. I didn't know that such a thing existed, but apparently it is what I was looking at. ...for all I know it was a concrete box with what looked like a bunch of 4/0 sticking out of it and a small LCD in an access compartment.

Does this sound similar to what is at the school?


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## TheSGC (Nov 15, 2007)

MN Driver said:


> I saw a picture of a small nuclear reactor once, it was self-contained except for the thick wiring coming out of it, about the size of a couch with a very thick outer concrete shell and I was told the one that I saw could power "the standard load of a few houses". Apparently it was small enough to not produce enough heat to require active cooling and not need active management and was designed to be buried underground and essentially use the soil surrounding it as a heat sink. I figure the load of a few houses was some sort of calculation for average load. I didn't know that such a thing existed, but apparently it is what I was looking at. ...for all I know it was a concrete box with what looked like a bunch of 4/0 sticking out of it and a small LCD in an access compartment.
> 
> Does this sound similar to what is at the school?


That does sound similar to what is at my school. I have never seen any specs on it, but it resides in a huge silo that doesn't match anything else on campus. I am guessing it could be upwards of 100 KWh, but not sure. It's used for a lot of experiments, labs, etc but I have been told it also powers the EV charging stations when the solar array and wind mills can't handle them.


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## Guest (Feb 27, 2010)

Lot more small reactors than you might know about. Some are used for medical research and others are used for xraying aircraft parts. Some use neutrons to image the parts too. Neutron imaging is far superior than xray for imaging metal parts for problems. Hidden and tucked away unknown but fully active and used all the time. We just hear about those huge plants that power cities. 

I know were some reside around here too. Been to one. 

Pete


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## MN Driver (Sep 29, 2009)

Don't forget about the nuclear submarines too, there are plenty of those too.


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