# Soliton 1 Lets Out Magic Smoke



## Brute Force (Aug 28, 2010)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fz8b2H8aQAE


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## Guest (Aug 28, 2010)

Looks more like the motor is dead and not the controller.


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## GizmoEV (Nov 28, 2009)

I agree with gottdi. I don't see any evidence to support the title of this thread! Maybe it should have been titled Soliton1 forces motor to let out Magic Smoke & fireworks.


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## Qer (May 7, 2008)

Tesseract has already helped this guy so I can assure you that both Solitons are still alive and send their regards. He blew the motor, totally gutted it. It's one of the seven motors mentioned in my signature. 

Btw, the video actually gives all the clues you need to figure out why...


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## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

Sigh... I wish the title of this post were different because it was, indeed, the motor that blew up, and when you see the setup you won't be surprised at all why: 

21 Optima yellow top batteries (252V nominal)
2 ADC FB-4001 motors, one for each rear wheel (yes, independent)
2 Soliton1 controllers and both are set to 1000A limit.

I don't recall off the top of my head, but I believe the FB-4001 vastly prefer rotating in one direction over the other because the brush contact angle is inclined (like a downhill skier). In this setup, though, one motor has to spend most of its time in revers, and that also happens to be the motor that blew up.

Granted, feeding 1kA to a FB-4001 on a regular basis is bound to destroy it anyway, but the owner had already noticed that even after a gentle break-in period (50 miles at 250A max) the doomed motor's commutator patina looked different, and it didn't sound the same when rotated by hand.

I love it when one of those guys at the starting line ask, "how come it's making no noise?"


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## TheSGC (Nov 15, 2007)

Tesseract said:


> Sigh... I wish the title of this post were different because it was, indeed, the motor that blew up, and when you see the setup you won't be surprised at all why:
> 
> 21 Optima yellow top batteries (252V nominal)
> 2 ADC FB-4001 motors, one for each rear wheel (yes, independent)
> ...


I have an FB1-4001a in my Civic, so it rotates backwards, but I had to adjust the brush timing then use a brush stone to realign the brushes to the Honda way. Then I spent about 8 hours running 12 volts and 20 AMPs through it to get the brushed broken in. And this was a used motor that had the first 3,000 miles of it's life in a S10 running CCW, then I got and spent the past 2,600 miles running CW with no ill effects. The commutator is nice and shiny too.

Oh, and yes using a single FB1-4001a and a Z1k-LV @ 96 volts 1000 AMPs I was able to destroy a little Civic Automatic transmission. I was probably at 1,000 AMPs for maybe 1-2 seconds. Next EV is gonna be a stick so I can drag race in true MA style.


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## Brute Force (Aug 28, 2010)

For the record, no Solitons were harmed during the filming of this feature. They were, however, used to torture some tires and slag a motor.

In the motor's defense, it had issues from the beginning. The race just finished it. The other motor shrugged it off and continues to work just fine.

As for the title, I was just stirring the pot! 

I would recommend the EVenetics Soliton 1 to anyone interested in a solid product. They were worth every penny!

Steve Green


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## JRoque (Mar 9, 2010)

Hi. How about asking the moderator to change the subject? Something like "Soliton1 lets out the MOTOR magic smoke" would be more accurate. These guys have worked very hard on their design and the subject is a tad misleading.

How do they keep those switches safe in the presence of a catastrophic motor collapse like that is true art. I bet they're doing cycle-by-cycle monitoring on everything that produces current.

JR


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## Qer (May 7, 2008)

JRoque said:


> How do they keep those switches safe in the presence of a catastrophic motor collapse like that is true art. I bet they're doing cycle-by-cycle monitoring on everything that produces current.


Almost. 

This is a graph from a motor (not this one) being zorched:










As you can see the Soliton desperately tries to keep the current under control, but it doesn't quite manage since the zorch is rather unpredictable. You can also see how the pulse width drops to about half, which means that the zorch makes the resistance in the motor drop drastically. But of course, it's more or less a short circuit so that's to be expected.

The graph is from this thread.


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## Brute Force (Aug 28, 2010)

What's more magic than tire smoke? The Solitons produced great quantities of it! 

As for the motors. I was assured by ADC when I purchased them that they worked equally well rotating either direction. The motors are neutrally timed. The brush boxes are symmetric about the armature, I checked them with a straight edge and they line up perfectly between opposite pairs. And the wear pattern on the brushes are centered on the faces. They both pulled equally in testing. Yes the motor zorched big time, but I have yet to find any evidence that rotating it CW was the cause.

Steve Green


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## GizmoEV (Nov 28, 2009)

Maybe it was because they are neutrally timed. I thought that with those high voltages you needed to advance the timing or the motor would be toast at higher RPMs.


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## DavidDymaxion (Dec 1, 2008)

Did AvDC know it was for 150V?


Brute Force said:


> ... I was assured by ADC when I purchased them that they worked equally well rotating either direction. The motors are neutrally timed. ...


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## Brute Force (Aug 28, 2010)

The boiler plate on the FB-4001 motor says 120 volts. ADC officially disavows use at higher voltages.

The Solitons were set to limit the voltage seen by the motors to 150 volts. I've heard from multiple sources that voltage should not have killed the motor (ADC was not one of them),

The long and the short of it is the motor was iffy, I leaned on it, it puked. That's racing.

Steve Green


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## MalcolmB (Jun 10, 2008)

I'm especially curious about the significance of brush angle as I have a couple of Prestolite 7 inch motors I was thinking of running in opposite directions (driving front wheels independently). These also have brushes that are set at an angle. I thought this was just a way to increase brush contact area and that it was OK to run the motors in either direction (they seem to be neutrally timed). The only problem I could think of is if the commutator surface was uneven, the brushes might dig in or bounce if they were pointing against the direction of rotation. I'd be grateful if anyone can shed any more light on why the brushes are set at an angle or whether this limits the direction of rotation.


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## Brute Force (Aug 28, 2010)

After consulting with motor guru Jim Husted, we've arrived at the conclusion that the motors were not neutrally timed as I was told by ADC. They were set in the advanced position for running CCW. So the motor running CW was running retarded. Cumulative damage to the com lead to the dead behavior and final zorching at the race.

Steve Green


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## GizmoEV (Nov 28, 2009)

How to toast a motor. Take one Soliton1, a string of batteries say 270V worth or so, a motor with the timing retarded, cable it all up and give it a good zap. Poof! Don't forget to tell Qer so he can update his signature line


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## Qer (May 7, 2008)

GizmoEV said:


> How to toast a motor. Take one Soliton1, a string of batteries say 270V worth or so, a motor with the timing retarded, cable it all up and give it a good zap. Poof! Don't forget to tell Qer so he can update his signature line




So far I only know of 7 motors, I wonder how many I've missed...


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## Brute Force (Aug 28, 2010)

More video of the carnage:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KX7diDd5slQ

Wish it were better, but it's all I got!



Steve Green


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## GizmoEV (Nov 28, 2009)

Gives new meaning to "Off in a flash!" :0


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## Qer (May 7, 2008)

Brute Force said:


> More video of the carnage:
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KX7diDd5slQ
> 
> ...


Damn, my morse code is too rusty to figure out what it transmits. I bet there's a hidden message in that video...


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

MalcolmB said:


> I'm especially curious about the significance of brush angle as I have a couple of Prestolite 7 inch motors I was thinking of running in opposite directions (driving front wheels independently). These also have brushes that are set at an angle. I thought this was just a way to increase brush contact area and that it was OK to run the motors in either direction (they seem to be neutrally timed). The only problem I could think of is if the commutator surface was uneven, the brushes might dig in or bounce if they were pointing against the direction of rotation. I'd be grateful if anyone can shed any more light on why the brushes are set at an angle or whether this limits the direction of rotation.


Hi Malc,

IIRC, the 15° angle for the Prestolite brush does not behave differently with rotation. It is angled to reduce chatter, that's all. Thousands and thousands of Prestolite motors were made with the 15° angle for CW, CCW and reversible motors and there was no significant difference in performance or warranty WRT rotation.

4 terminal motors are likely set on neutral. 2 terminal motors are likely advanced the standard Prestolite 4.5°.

Regards,

major


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

qer said:


> damn, my morse code is too rusty to figure out what it transmits. I bet there's a hidden message in that video...


I Am Retarded


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## MalcolmB (Jun 10, 2008)

major said:


> IIRC, the 15° angle for the Prestolite brush does not behave differently with rotation. It is angled to reduce chatter, that's all...


Many thanks Major, that's really good to hear. It's full steam ahead now


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## Dink (Jun 3, 2010)

Qer said:


> So far I only know of 7 motors, I wonder how many I've missed...


 Todd said it best. Solition 1 causes motors to scream uncle! So questions. What series motor can handle that beast controller? When are the little controllers coming to market?


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## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

Dink said:


> What series motor can handle that beast controller? When are the little controllers coming to market?


The bigger the motor the longer it can handle the full output of a Soliton1... sorry we can't be more precise, but collecting this data usually involves destroying a motor and that gets to be a bit pricey after awhile. Needless to say, if a motor is rated for, say, 24hp continuous then you need to be very careful with the accelerator pedal when driving it with a 400hp controller (or even a 200hp one, like the Soliton Junior will be). 

And speaking of... we decided to make some pretty radical changes to the main control board so it can be used in several different controllers (to reduce the number of unique parts we have to buy on reels for the pick-and-place machine). Unsurprisingly, then, my estimate of having something ready by September was a bit optimistic. The enclosure and high power circuit are done, however and those are what dominate the parts cost and ultimate performance specs. So our goals of delivering 300V nominal and 500A continuous (when water-cooled) at a price of less than $2k still seems reasonable.


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