# Lancer Evolution EV conversion



## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

Hi, welcome to the forum.

I don't know if what you want is fully possible but have you read Crodriver's BMW project thread?
I think you might find it interesting.


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## Bowser330 (Jun 15, 2008)

Woodsmith said:


> Hi, welcome to the forum.
> 
> I don't know if what you want is fully possible but have you read Crodriver's BMW project thread?
> I think you might find it interesting.


+1 check out crodrivers BMW....

You could use Warp11HV (1400A @ 270V = 378KW ~500hp) coupled to your manual transmission...you can use the same batteries as CroDriver is using or go even lighter with the more costly A123 batteries.


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## rillip3 (Jun 19, 2009)

100% electrical efficiency is unrealistic, obviously. You're looking at more like 90%, so your 62.5kwh becomes ~69kwh when you increase by 10%. Let's assume lithium for this, since you have a pretty good size budget and need to keep weight down (PbA is not realistic for the weight anyway).

Assuming something like a 350v system (AC), you're looking at 69,000 / 350 ~= 198 Ah needed on the batteries (200 Ah are available). At 3.2v nominal, you need 110 cells. At almost 16 lbs a cell, you're looking at 1760 lbs added. I can't tell you how much the motor weight will add, not knowing much about using multiple motors, or AC motors. A very large DC motor is around 300 lbs. I would say at a minimum you would need to expect to add 2100 lbs. If the weight of the exhaust system, engine, fuel tank, the weight of fuel, etc. are somewhere in that neighborhood, you might be able to reach that level of performance.

I'm not claiming that this is a good voltage for your application, mind. It's just a voltage that is reasonable for AC and that I could do some math for weight on. There are 500 v AC motors out there, so maybe you'll go higher, get more cells but need smaller Ah. With the kind of budget you're talking about, I think you could do this. The numbers I've given are just a ballpark figure to get you thinking about if you can do this within your weight limit.


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## Tractionlimit (Aug 20, 2010)

Bowser330 said:


> +1 check out crodrivers BMW....
> 
> You could use Warp11HV (1400A @ 270V = 378KW ~500hp) coupled to your manual transmission...you can use the same batteries as CroDriver is using or go even lighter with the more costly A123 batteries.


Thanks! Just got done reading CroDrivers thread. Great stuff there! Is anyone currently running a Warp11HV? Would be curious what performance they're getting. I was really hoping to ditch the tranny, but that may not be likely.

Any other thoughts on the dual staggered ratio motor setup? Curious as to whether this would actually work...

Thanks for the battery advice. I guess I need to research what the optimal voltage would be. A123s sound like the best bet if cost isn't an object?

Ryan


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## Bowser330 (Jun 15, 2008)

Tractionlimit said:


> Thanks! Just got done reading CroDrivers thread. Great stuff there! Is anyone currently running a Warp11HV? Would be curious what performance they're getting. I was really hoping to ditch the tranny, but that may not be likely.
> 
> Any other thoughts on the dual staggered ratio motor setup? Curious as to whether this would actually work...
> 
> ...


I see no reason why a dual motor setup (each controlling 2 wheels) would not work..and I can see your reasoning with the overlapping powerbands...

DC Setup: Dual warp11HVs would be crazy, 1000hp!! if you had the battery power to supply enough juice...A123s could do it for sure...

you can look into the gearing more, however from the warp11HV form Cro's thread 500hp @ 4500rpm, so you could gear them accordingly...

im not sure if the mitsu diffs will hold up, evo or not, you may need some seriously built diffs to handle the instant torque of the DC motors...

AC motors might better fit this application, they will be less powerful for the same price however check out www.currentevtech.com for more information..They have an 80kw system that I think was said can peak at 100kw, so thats 200kw, which is 268hp...with regen...


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## Tractionlimit (Aug 20, 2010)

^ The Warp11HV sounds amazing. What would it take to get regen on a DC motor like this? That AC motor would be great size to do one per wheel  wonder what that setup would cost though...


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## DavidDymaxion (Dec 1, 2008)

These guys did something like what you want:

http://www.proev.com


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## Tractionlimit (Aug 20, 2010)

^anyone know if this car is still running/racing? I haven't been able to get a hold of them.


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## DavidDymaxion (Dec 1, 2008)

You could do sepex. Kelly sells a ~72 kW nominal sepex controller. Times four motors would be about 384 nominal hp. Do a search on "Kelly" here on diyelectriccar and you can read about some other folks experiences. Note the 600 A limit is one minute, you are then down to 240 A continuous, now you are down to about 115 hp continuous. Throw in some battery sag, and it's even less. That's not really the ticket for road racing, but would be OK for drag racing or autocross that are less than a minute a run.

You could also do 2 or 4 AC motors+controllers, but that would eat up most of your budget.


Tractionlimit said:


> ^ The Warp11HV sounds amazing. What would it take to get regen on a DC motor like this? That AC motor would be great size to do one per wheel  wonder what that setup would cost though...


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## Tractionlimit (Aug 20, 2010)

^ is the one minute limit on the controller or the motors? Is there any such limit on a Warp11 w/ Zilla? It's sounding like dual DC may be the best option. Still wondering how to do regen w/ DC though. Thanks!


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## rillip3 (Jun 19, 2009)

Tractionlimit said:


> ^ is the one minute limit on the controller or the motors? Is there any such limit on a Warp11 w/ Zilla? It's sounding like dual DC may be the best option. Still wondering how to do regen w/ DC though. Thanks!


In regards to regen, what are you looking to get out of it? It's really only doing you any good when you're coasting, going down hill, etc., which, just from reading the thread, I don't necessarily see you doing a lot. If your foot is on the gas, regen doesn't work. If your foot is on the brake, you're going to slow too fast to really get much out of it.

Regen is nice on a vehicle that's going to be doing a lot of slowing, like in city traffic, but for the weight and complexity, it's often not worth the work and expense, and adding an extra battery or two would have the same effect at roughly the same price, but with less work. If you're using something like an AC motor with a controller that already supports it, great, go for it, but I don't think trying to add it to a DC setup will really provide you any real advantage.


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## DavidDymaxion (Dec 1, 2008)

The one minute limit I referenced was for the controller. In any case, with hard use, you'll want good cooling for the motors and controllers.

If you go sepex DC, you can get regen, but as I pointed out after the one minute number the power is pretty weak for a racer.

Here's a random thought: Go with a ~100 kW AC on the front axle to get regen. Under heavy braking most of the weight will be on the front axle, so that'll provide perhaps around 2/3 of the available force. Go with a 500 kW dual DC motor and Zilla arrangement on the rear axle, which gets most of the weight on hard acceleration. The trick would be to blend the regen with the friction brakes -- perhaps regular racing front/rear braking bias circuit would do it?


Tractionlimit said:


> ^ is the one minute limit on the controller or the motors? Is there any such limit on a Warp11 w/ Zilla? It's sounding like dual DC may be the best option. Still wondering how to do regen w/ DC though. Thanks!


Racing is a great situation for regen. The ProEV guys said they were getting about 15% return. Hard braking is a great time for regen -- if I do a severe regen on my car, I can skid the wheels! The trick there is to blend the regen with the brakes so you don't skid unintentionally.



rillip3 said:


> In regards to regen, what are you looking to get out of it? It's really only doing you any good when you're coasting, going down hill, etc., which, just from reading the thread, I don't necessarily see you doing a lot. If your foot is on the gas, regen doesn't work. If your foot is on the brake, you're going to slow too fast to really get much out of it.
> 
> Regen is nice on a vehicle that's going to be doing a lot of slowing, like in city traffic, but for the weight and complexity, it's often not worth the work and expense, and adding an extra battery or two would have the same effect at roughly the same price, but with less work. If you're using something like an AC motor with a controller that already supports it, great, go for it, but I don't think trying to add it to a DC setup will really provide you any real advantage.


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## Tractionlimit (Aug 20, 2010)

^on regen, I guess I had made the assumption that the larger motors would provide more regenerative braking, to the point where it would take the place of standard braking on a race track to a certain point. If that's not the case, and it really feels like coasting, I may not need it.


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## EVfun (Mar 14, 2010)

Regen with a series wound motor is a bad idea. That is why very few series wound motor controller are built to offer it and those that do are usually low voltage. The problem is that series wound motors have the brushes advanced so they don't burn the commutator up. This is especially true when over-volting a motor. To use the motor as a generator you need to retard the brushes to get the timing right. So, as soon as a regen controller tries to make a decent amount of regen with a series wound motor the brushes light up in sparks. If that is stopped right quick the motor will burn up and quite possibly the controller too.


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## DavidDymaxion (Dec 1, 2008)

The right regen setup can skid the wheels and provide as much braking as regular brakes (at least down to a very low speed). However, you should not count on only regen to stop, as a safety thing -- that's why all regen systems also have friction brakes. BTW keeping the gears can help a regen system provide more braking force.

Basically I'd grade it this way for a high performance acceleration and regen system:



*AC regen: A+*, high power and high regen, but costly.
*Sepex DC regen: C*, only low power setups off-the-shelf.
*Series DC regen: D-*, awesome acceleration possible, but virtually zero off-the-shelf regen controllers; inherent instability makes it a technically very challenging problem.



Tractionlimit said:


> ^on regen, I guess I had made the assumption that the larger motors would provide more regenerative braking, to the point where it would take the place of standard braking on a race track to a certain point. If that's not the case, and it really feels like coasting, I may not need it.


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## Tractionlimit (Aug 20, 2010)

DavidDymaxion said:


> The right regen setup can skid the wheels and provide as much braking as regular brakes (at least down to a very low speed). However, you should not count on only regen to stop, as a safety thing -- that's why all regen systems also have friction brakes. BTW keeping the gears can help a regen system provide more braking force.
> 
> Basically I'd grade it this way for a high performance acceleration and regen system:
> 
> ...


Once again, great info here. Sorry if this is common knowledge to most of you... I'm trying to learn! 

With a perfect AC regen system in a racing application (100% acceleration, 100% braking), roughly what % of energy can be recaptured? I know I'd never get friction losses back, but would regen allow for less battery?

Also, I will definitely be keeping the stock braking system.

Ryan


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## CroDriver (Jan 8, 2009)

Tractionlimit said:


> Once again, great info here. Sorry if this is common knowledge to most of you... I'm trying to learn!
> 
> With a perfect AC regen system in a racing application (100% acceleration, 100% braking), roughly what % of energy can be recaptured? I know I'd never get friction losses back, but would regen allow for less battery?
> 
> ...


If your motor/controller system can break with the same power like it can accelerate and dump 200+kW back to the batteries, I guess it would be over 30% with AWD. You could use the clutch pedal for regen and the stock breaking pedal in case of a failure or when you need assistance from the mechanical brakes, i.e. when regen isn't strong enough for hard decelerations.

But that will be a VERY expensive built. You have to choose between complete systems like UQM (whose 150kW motor/controller costs $30k+ * 2 for AWD) or some other custom motor with a tritium controller. 

The batteries will have to be A123 or Kokam because no other can take than much charging current without damage. Don't expect below $30k for that too. And at least $5k for the charger, BMS and other stuff.

This are just the electric components. You'll have a lot of work with the mechanical part of the car too which is also expensive.

If I where you, I would start with only one DC motor and a good controller for the rear wheels. If that's not enough buy a second DC motor and controller for the front wheels and double the battery pack (I have a modular battery pack - I install only half of the pack when drifting, the other one is in the car too if I have a drag race). You'll learn much. The AC options just seem too expensive. 

Hope it helps.


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

Hi Guys

Re-Gen cannot be used to slow your car on a track
Your brakes can absorb much more power than your motor can absorb - a normal salon has over 1000hp of brake capacity

A 2 tonne car at 140mph braking at 1 G = 20,000N x 62m/sec = 1244 Kw = 1659 Hp

Even F1 cars have more brake "power" than engine power

This means that you still need the brakes!
Which means that you have to integrate two methods of braking while still braking as close to the tire limits as you can get - tricky control problem!!

Also at most you can use re-gen to capture a *small* amount of the power you are expending - most of it goes as heat in your discs

INMHO unless you are using AC where re-gen is free it is not worth messing with on the track


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## DavidDymaxion (Dec 1, 2008)

I'd argue it's more a matter of degree. For a typical single motor conversion that weighed 2 tons, capable of hitting 140 mph on a short straight, I agree it would be tough to get 1600 hp worth of regen! 140 mph is fast, too, I'd guess most of your braking applications would be much less than that (certainly true for my local road racing track). Two tons is heavy for a track car, most serious track cars weigh less. If you are willing to throw major funding and 4 or 8 motors at the problem, regen could be a majority of your braking force, even on a race track. Even Jay Leno might wince at the cost, though!

The proEV guys were getting around 15% benefit from regen on the race track http://www.proEV.com . They blended via two pedals, one for regen and one for the friction brake.

You can get more regen from fwd than rwd, and the most from awd.


Duncan said:


> Hi Guys
> 
> Re-Gen cannot be used to slow your car on a track
> Your brakes can absorb much more power than your motor can absorb - a normal salon has over 1000hp of brake capacity
> ...


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## Bowser330 (Jun 15, 2008)

So tractionlimit, how do you feel about a single Warp11HV motor, with 1400A+ controller? 500hp capable from 0rpm-4500rpm, 0-60 in 3 sec definitely possible with your AWD system, if its strong enough to handle the instant torque....

Motor = ~3500
Controller = ~3000
Batteries = ~40,000 (A123a = 20kwh & 411lbs) 
Charger = ~2500
Misc. = ~ 1000
Total = ~50,000

Well rounded battery pack for a bargain price (Calb 3.2V 130AH, 100 in series would have 320V x 130AH = 41.6kwh, 970lbs, 17,900$, 1500A max/burst)

Saves 22K$ (from 40K) for you to use on carbon fiber parts to make the car lighter! like the AMS Evo!


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## drivin98 (May 9, 2008)

I'll just throw in, if you are going to use Netgain motor(s), perhaps a custom build might be preferable. If you buy one from stock, it may not have all the latest improvements, as he continuously upgrades. His latest ones have 20+ improvements, for example. Plus, if you wanted, you could get a 13" and I'm sure there are other parameters that could be specified( ie. more/few windings, thicker/thinner wire).

George Hamstra was just a guest on EVTV making for a very informative Netgain-centric episode.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

I agree with those saying start with a single Warp11HV unless you can find a powerful AC system. Your idea of a DC system in the rear and an AC up front does have merit and would give you regen. The DC system would also give you low end torque where the AC isn't as strong, and the AC system carries it's torque higher in the RPM range where the DC system drops off. If you start with the DC system in the rear you can always do the AC front later. I'd think the way to implement the AC regen is to have it on the accelerator pedal the way Tesla, MiniEV, and my car is setup. That way you have regen when you let up the throttle and have mechanical braking when you need it. Series DC regen is just not practical so forget about it.


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## Jozzer (Mar 29, 2009)

Think about LiPo's instead of LifePo4 (a123).
There are cells out there that make a 20kw/h pack for £10k ($15000) weighing 144kg with 400KW output power.
Cycle life is about the only downside, if you really use them at 400KW continuous (not easily done) they will only last some 150 cycles (till 80% capacity). I expect in real track life youd get the same as we do on our track bikes, in excess of 250 cycles.

A123's would probably do well over 1000 cycles at the same rate.

Steve


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## rillip3 (Jun 19, 2009)

Jozzer said:


> Think about LiPo's instead of LifePo4 (a123).
> There are cells out there that make a 20kw/h pack for £10k ($1500) weighing 144kg with 400KW output power.
> Cycle life is about the only downside, if you really use them at 400KW continuous (not easily done) they will only last some 150 cycles (till 80% capacity). I expect in real track life youd get the same as we do on our track bikes, in excess of 250 cycles.
> 
> ...


I think you have a typo there. Not sure on the current conversion rate, but if you'll give me 10,000 GBP for 1500 USD, it's a deal!!


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## Jozzer (Mar 29, 2009)

Edited...

Thanks


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## Tractionlimit (Aug 20, 2010)

JRP3 said:


> I agree with those saying start with a single Warp11HV unless you can find a powerful AC system. Your idea of a DC system in the rear and an AC up front does have merit and would give you regen. The DC system would also give you low end torque where the AC isn't as strong, and the AC system carries it's torque higher in the RPM range where the DC system drops off. If you start with the DC system in the rear you can always do the AC front later. I'd think the way to implement the AC regen is to have it on the accelerator pedal the way Tesla, MiniEV, and my car is setup. That way you have regen when you let up the throttle and have mechanical braking when you need it. Series DC regen is just not practical so forget about it.


Thanks again everyone for the great information. I was out of the country for a while, and haven't been able to respond. 

I do really like the idea of an AC front / DC rear. That would be an excellent (future) mix for me. A 33/66 front to rear torque split is ideal, and off-throttle regen will give back some at the front wheels only. It would also allow similar gearing F to R, but a much earlier 'shut-off' of the rear motor. 

My concerns more and more are that this won't be possible even with a budget that originally sounded pretty large. I had originally figured battery cost to be 40% of the project cost ($20,000) This doesn't seem to be buying me enough battery though for the car's weight and racing power consumption. Maybe you all are right in that I should get my feet wet with a single DC motor setup first. Battery cost will be the same, but I will save a bundle on the AC stuff.

On the question of a single Warp11, keeping the entire stock drivetrain minus motor... this could work in theory, and would be much much easier, but my gut tells me I will be shearing gears from day one. I am currently making 445ft-lbs at 4,000RPM, which, let's just say is the limit for the gearbox, diffs and transfer case. The current turbo setup also doesn't hit full boost (peak torque) until the car at least begins moving a bit. 

I'm not sure what the equivalent ft-lb rating would be of a Warp11, but I have to think it's multiplied being that it starts at zero RPM. Or maybe torque doesn't work like that ??. Then again, maybe instant torque isn't any harder because at 0MPH, the tires will spin before hurting anything where at 60MPH, the tires won't spin, and everything has to hold that torque. Please chime in if you know the math behind this! I forget...

Lastly, if someone could send me a link to a car currently powered by a single Warp11, that would be great. Would like to know how close this will get me to my current performance with AWD.

Ryan


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Cro's BMW is probably the closest example of what you are trying to do with a single Warp11 HV. You could search www.evalbum.com for other warp11's but the HV hasn't been around very long. The full torque at start up is going to be harder on components though I don't know if you'll break the tires loose or parts first. You can always go easy on the A-pedal to start


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## Bowser330 (Jun 15, 2008)

Cro's thread should really be in the performance section due to its insane performance, Here is a link: http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showthread.php/bmw-bi-moto-ev-project-28287p38.html

From what I've read an 11" DC motor provides about 300ftlbs of torque @ 1000A...

from the charts provided in cro's thread above, he is able to push 1400A into the motor while @ 4500rpm...this leads to ~378kw = ~507hp...

Since Torque = (5252 * Horsepower)/Rpm, T=5252*507/4500 = ~592ftlbs

So a controller providing 1400A constantly from 0-4500rpm would have a literally flat (peak amp limited) torque curve of 592ftlbs all the way to 4500 motor rpm...

To JRP3's point about it being tough on your components, I wonder if it is possible too auto-modulate the throttle based on wheel slip, so you don't waste all that power with tire smoke??? Example: its hardcoded that from 0-1000rpm, max motor A are limit = 700A, from 1000-2000rpm = 1000A, (not that those values make sense, just an example)

If throttle controls motor amperage and 0A is the min value and the max value is 1400A, half throttle of 700A might actually stick with your AWD system and not break anything (huge speculation on my part)....I can see an instant 592ftlbs doing some damage..

Hope you go forward with this project...I would imagine with 592ftlbs and 500hp you wouldn't need another motor, the acceleration from AWD traction is going to be insane...make sure and post up videos!!!


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## Tractionlimit (Aug 20, 2010)

^ Yes, those numbers are looking very tasty  

I don't know anything about DC controllers, or programming, but I know with AC industrial motors, limiting torque on startup is quite common. I would guess people on here have done the same on DC. Will need to research more.

I guess the big question is still the battery setup and cost/weight/battery life ratio. Would like to hear more recommendations on what my options are for that. I need to estimate the following items for the pack:

1) cost
2) weight - 500lbs or less would be ideal, but not realistic?
3) kWh - what is the right number for me?
4) max output/duration at max
5) how much time can I run a Warp11 wide open?
6) dimensional benefits of a certain system (something I can mount as low and to the center of the car as possible is a big plus.
7) battery life - this will hopefully remain my daily driver, and I can't afford to replace a set of $20,000 batteries every year!
8) any temp. related issues with certain batteries? I live and park the car where it's cold (Milwaukee!)

I will be doing a lot of research before starting, but your opinions are very helpful!


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## Bowser330 (Jun 15, 2008)

Imho a well rounded battery pack for a bargain price = Calb 3.2V 130AH, 100 in series would have 320V x 130AH = 41.6kwh, 970lbs, 17,900$, 1500A max/burst.

Depending on how aerodynamic your car ends up being you could end up only using simewhere between 250 and 300 wh/mile. 
So with 41,600wh in your pack 275 wh/ mile = 151 mile range till 100% empty (not advised to go below 25% full) which gives you an every day usable range of 113 miles.

4c continuos is the rating on these cells, so that means 130A x 4 = 520A 
520A x 300V ( only minor sag) =156kw = 209hp.
The 500 is the peak power and would only be able to be used for 5-10 sec at a time with these cells. 
100 cells is alot but with a smart arrangement in the floor area of the car it's very possible.
Life of these cells is in the 1000's of cycles if not abused...soo if you were to charge up 400 times a year then even 1200 cycles is three years.


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## Tractionlimit (Aug 20, 2010)

^ you mentioned earlier that 20kWh of A123a batteries weigh 411lbs? So the Calb setup is 970lbs for 41.6kWh vs ~850lbs for the rough equivalent kWh in A123s? Also with similar cycle life? For the price, I'm more than willing to take a 120lb penalty. This sounds good, if I am reading it correctly. What other differences are there?


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## Bowser330 (Jun 15, 2008)

Tractionlimit said:


> ^ you mentioned earlier that 20kWh of A123a batteries weigh 411lbs? So the Calb setup is 970lbs for 41.6kWh vs ~850lbs for the rough equivalent kWh in A123s? Also with similar cycle life? For the price, I'm more than willing to take a 120lb penalty. This sounds good, if I am reading it correctly. What other differences are there?


By far the A123s are the best between the two..however they just aren't cost effective in this type of conversion that is race car + DD...

A123 cells can push out HUGE Amps per cell and when that's multiplied with paralleling cells, you can create a killer battery pack..of course it will cost a kidney, but you gotta pay to play, as they say....example....

A123 cells 3.2V 2.3AH (30C cont. 50C for 10sec burst)

So 3000cells, 100 in series and 30 parallel = 320V and 69AH = 22kwh (Only 60 miles of DD range (assuming the same 275wh/mile and 25% buffer)

but with 69AH you can push out 2000A continuously (30C) but you only need 1400A...so basically 592ftlbs and 500hp @ 4500rpm continuously, non stop, until the pack is out of [email protected] 15$ each , 3000 cells will run you 45,000$ but only weigh 462lbs

Basically the Calb cells will be pushed to the limits with your power requirements, where as the A123s wont even yawn...

Lets get crazy for a second, lets say you got two warp11-HVs and two 1400A controllers (Soliton1-RaceVersion) one motor+controller per axle...

You would need 1400A to each motor, the A123 pack mentioned above could handle this , @ 40C (2800A), which is still 10C shy of its 50C 10sec burst limit....

That means you could have 1000hp @ 4500rpm and 1184ftlbs of torque from 0-4500rpm!


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## Bowser330 (Jun 15, 2008)

check out the cells for sale at www.currentevtech.com, they are an advertiser here. Contact the owner for information about what you are looking for performance wise, he's got great prices and can help you put together a great pack...

This is a link to the Calb 130AH cells i was talking about...
http://currentevtech.com/Lithium-Batteries/CALB/CALB-130ah-cell-p32.html

4C continuous and 12C burst (@ 1400A its only 10.8C, so a little less than the peak which is good), make sure and check what burst means, 5 seconds?, 10 seconds?, make sure also to ask about how much time is needed to "relax" the pack between bursts...and what amp draw is considered "relaxed"...


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## Pirape (Feb 26, 2009)

How much is your car worth as of right now?

with the gas/ engine setup?


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## Tractionlimit (Aug 20, 2010)

Pirape said:


> How much is your car worth as of right now?
> 
> with the gas/ engine setup?


I have at least $55-60K USD invested total. It's not 'worth' anywhere near that, obviously, as it's been raced and daily driven for two years. Probably could sell in the neighborhood of $25K. The original thought was that I could recoup some of the money I put in by 'parting out' upgrades I've made: engine, turbo, intercooler/intake, transmission, transfer case fuel pumps, etc.


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## Tractionlimit (Aug 20, 2010)

Bowser330 said:


> but with 69AH you can push out 2000A continuously (30C) but you only need 1400A...so basically 592ftlbs and 500hp @ 4500rpm continuously, non stop, until the pack is out of juice


Ok, I'm stating to understand now what a123s are all about.

How do I calculate how much time (or how many miles) I could run a123s at full power before the pack is out of juice? Take Road America, for example, my local track... say 75% of the time on course is spent at wide open throttle and it's a 4 mile circuit.

This makes me realize why there are so few electric road racers out there... Maybe the above calculation doesn't matter because the Warp11 might overheat first anyway.

Has anyone tried a mixed power source? Say half that many a123s for enough instantaneous to feed a single Warp11, but another pack of high kWh for duration/ DD?


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## Tractionlimit (Aug 20, 2010)

Just brainstorming here, but going off of the above idea, what about a small a123 pack that gets charged by a less expensive, but high kWh pack? Maybe the heavier pack could also be removable for, say, drag racing?


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## Bowser330 (Jun 15, 2008)

Tractionlimit said:


> Ok, I'm stating to understand now what a123s are all about.
> 
> How do I calculate how much time (or how many miles) I could run a123s at full power before the pack is out of juice? Take Road America, for example, my local track... say 75% of the time on course is spent at wide open throttle and it's a 4 mile circuit.
> 
> ...


Well you would need to add forced air cooling to the motor to keep the temps from getting out of control, you could even add a compressed air or liquid Co2 cannister to super cool the air in extreme heatsoak instances.

Some have tried pairing battery chemistries together in the past, but I have not seen a lot come out of it...It doesn't seem to have caught on...although I can see a burst pack of A123's being used, they are so rubust, they could easily take the dump charging/equalization from the Calb pack...


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## Tractionlimit (Aug 20, 2010)

Bowser330 said:


> Imho a well rounded battery pack for a bargain price = Calb 3.2V 130AH, 100 in series would have 320V x 130AH = 41.6kwh, 970lbs, 17,900$, 1500A max/burst.


Unfortunately 5-10 seconds of full output from the CALB alone probably isn't going to cut it for road racing unless the recovery time is super fast. 



Bowser330 said:


> ...although I can see a burst pack of A123's being used, they are so rubust, they could easily take the dump charging/equalization from the Calb pack...


Thanks, I emailed CurrentEVTech to see if they have any experience on this as well.

In terms of calculating how much continuous run time I'd have at full Warp11 draw, where do I start? Say hypothetically, using the 69AH a123 pack at 1400A constant, how fast would I empty the battery? Is it as simple as 69/1400 = 0.0492 hours or ~ 2.9 minutes? On the flipside, roughly how fast could a CALB or Thundersky pack recharge the A123s?


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## Bowser330 (Jun 15, 2008)

I am really in a learning stage myself, I was just trying to share what little i do know. 

I cant help with the whole pack usage at peak power draw calculation, I actually would like to know myself...maybe Major or JRP3, Dave or others can chime in to help...however i would imagine it would not be long, and hence your comment about there not being many track racers and more drag racers....

Yah youre right about the Calb pack, it looks like it would only really work in a drag race/Daily usage type usage with 10second limit on the 500hp...


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## CroDriver (Jan 8, 2009)

Tractionlimit said:


> Ok, I'm stating to understand now what a123s are all about.
> 
> How do I calculate how much time (or how many miles) I could run a123s at full power before the pack is out of juice? Take Road America, for example, my local track... say 75% of the time on course is spent at wide open throttle and it's a 4 mile circuit.
> 
> ...


If you have a 60 Ah battery configuration you can run 60 Amps for one hour, 120 Amps for half an hour, 240 Amps for 15 minutes, 480 Amps for 7,5 minutes and so on...

You will need a huge battery pack to race against gas powered cars on a race circuit. That will be very heavy unless you'll use Li-Po or A123 which are quite expensive. Li-po cells can also be dangerous (search for Li-po explosion on youtube). 

There will also be cooling problems with air cooled motors on such long distances and high powers... And thousands of other real-life problems which happen when you race EVs 

Really, be prepared for many many problems if you really think about this seriously.


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## Tractionlimit (Aug 20, 2010)

CroDriver said:


> There will also be cooling problems with air cooled motors on such long distances and high powers... And thousands of other real-life problems which happen when you race EVs
> 
> Really, be prepared for many many problems if you really think about this seriously.


Thanks, Cro. With your experience I would definitely consider you an expert on EV performance. The battery cost and fear of these problems (and the unknown) are the only things still holding me back from getting started.

As I recall, you're running a propriatary battery setup. Do you have any thoughts on how long it will be before there is a better or cheaper alternative to a123s? I hate to invest a ton of money just to find out something new is coming. Are there any new battery technology threads going here?

A moderately sized (100kg) a123 pack should theoretically get me enough performance for several hot laps on a short, technical track. The question is whether I can get them recharged fast enough between sessions (using a larger removable pack to get back on track in 45 minutes, and also if the heat can be mitigated to allow this.

Day to day driving would be fine other than the extra 700-1000lbs I'd be lugging around with the long range battery installed.


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## CroDriver (Jan 8, 2009)

Tractionlimit said:


> Do you have any thoughts on how long it will be before there is a better or cheaper alternative to a123s? I hate to invest a ton of money just to find out something new is coming. Are there any new battery technology threads going here?



Hmm, hard to tell... Every day there is a new "breakthrough" but the newspaper headlines are usually the only thing we see from this new battery technologies. 

Even if some new, better batteries will be produced, there are small chances to purchase enough cells for a reasonable price for DIY-ers. I believe that there are better cells than A123s right now on the market. But this market is available only for big players like GM and BMW. Even cylindrical A123 are hard to get (personally I'm not a fan of such small cells - too much weak connections). Don't even try to get some of these cool flat 20 Ah A123 cells (I already purchased all of them )



Tractionlimit said:


> A moderately sized (100kg) a123 pack should theoretically get me enough performance for several hot laps on a short, technical track. The question is whether I can get them recharged fast enough between sessions (using a larger removable pack to get back on track in 45 minutes, and also if the heat can be mitigated to allow this.
> 
> Day to day driving would be fine other than the extra 700-1000lbs I'd be lugging around with the long range battery installed.


You can recharge a pack within 45 minutes, no problem. You just need a 70 Amp Manzanita charger and an source with such a high power. But I wouldn't count on this car as my daily driver... We are always (and I mean EVERY DAY) working on our car if there is no race going on... There are just sooo many little things.

Wish you luck!


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## Tractionlimit (Aug 20, 2010)

CroDriver said:


> You can recharge a pack within 45 minutes, no problem. You just need a 70 Amp Manzanita charger and an source with such a high power. But I wouldn't count on this car as my daily driver... We are always (and I mean EVERY DAY) working on our car if there is no race going on... There are just sooo many little things.


Performance daily driving in an EV is my ultimate goal, so reliability will play a big role. I agree though, I WILL need another daily driver other than this car in order to work on it. Or maybe I should keep the gas Evo as a daily/racer and get a cheaper toy to practice EV on...


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

I don't think you can do the kind of driving you want at this time with batteries. 30 min. of 1400 amps at race voltages are probably going to kill the motor and any potential battery pack in short order even if it could last the 30 min., which I doubt.


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## Tractionlimit (Aug 20, 2010)

JRP3 said:


> I don't think you can do the kind of driving you want at this time with batteries. 30 min. of 1400 amps at race voltages are probably going to kill the motor and any potential battery pack in short order even if it could last the 30 min., which I doubt.


 Thanks for the reality check. I started seeing this coming 

After thinking more about my calculations, a 30ah a123 burst pack would only supply 1400A for 1 minute... that's usually 1-2 laps at best considering I'm not at full throttle the whole time. Then there's the whole $20,000 for this battery part, and road racing starts to get rediculous with an EV.

I still wonder how well something like a large Thundersky pack could feed a small a123 pack on the street. What would be the limiting factor in rebalancing the charge?

For drag racing, this could be sweet. I still may consider a cheap project car though.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

If you used 180 ah CALB cells they can do 4C, 720 amps, with higher bursts. That would make a pretty quick street car with a good range, at 196 volts it's about a 100 mile cruising range, about 760 lbs, $16k, 62 cells, no need to mess with a hybrid pack. You could always add the hybrid pack in the future if you wanted.


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## DavidDymaxion (Dec 1, 2008)

You can't get a faster charge than using regen and towing behind a truck. If you already have the truck it's a cheap way to charge, too. I did that last year on the Salt Flats. At first it was just quicker and easier to do than buying a "real" charger and hauling a large generator, and then I realized it did far more Amps than any wall plug could deliver (after all, a Chevy truck can deliver 200+ kW -- even a 240 V plug only delivers about 12 kW). With a modern truck it's probably more green than any generator you'd use. You can read about my regen via towing adventure here:

http://explodingdinosaurs.com/9electric/2009saltflats

Downside: This does heat the motor and batteries -- if they are hot from a track run that would limit how fast you can charge.


Tractionlimit said:


> ... The question is whether I can get them recharged fast enough between sessions (using a larger removable pack to get back on track in 45 minutes ...


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## CroDriver (Jan 8, 2009)

DavidDymaxion said:


> You can't get a faster charge than using regen and towing behind a truck. If you already have the truck it's a cheap way to charge, too. I did that last year on the Salt Flats. At first it was just quicker and easier to do than buying a "real" charger and hauling a large generator, and then I realized it did far more Amps than any wall plug could deliver (after all, a Chevy truck can deliver 200+ kW -- even a 240 V plug only delivers about 12 kW). With a modern truck it's probably more green than any generator you'd use. You can read about my regen via towing adventure here:
> 
> http://explodingdinosaurs.com/9electric/2009saltflats
> 
> Downside: This does heat the motor and batteries -- if they are hot from a track run that would limit how fast you can charge.


What controller is driving your SepEx?


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

DavidDymaxion said:


> You can't get a faster charge than using regen and towing behind a truck.


Unless you have a series DC motor as most do, then it's impossible.


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## Bowser330 (Jun 15, 2008)

DavidDymaxion said:


> You can't get a faster charge than using regen and towing behind a truck. If you already have the truck it's a cheap way to charge, too. I did that last year on the Salt Flats. At first it was just quicker and easier to do than buying a "real" charger and hauling a large generator, and then I realized it did far more Amps than any wall plug could deliver (after all, a Chevy truck can deliver 200+ kW -- even a 240 V plug only delivers about 12 kW). With a modern truck it's probably more green than any generator you'd use. You can read about my regen via towing adventure here:
> 
> http://explodingdinosaurs.com/9electric/2009saltflats
> 
> Downside: This does heat the motor and batteries -- if they are hot from a track run that would limit how fast you can charge.


 
I always throught the fastest way to charge a battery pack was to dump charge it from another battery pack, just like how John Wayland used to do with the white zombie pack inbetween runs....


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## DavidDymaxion (Dec 1, 2008)

The car's pack itself is a bottleneck. Dump charging, a massive utility feed, or a huge generator all can feed as much power as the pack can take. I don't think a dump pack is a practical solution for TractionLimit's scenario.

TractionLimit said a 20 minute session followed by 45 minutes for charging. In my experience I'll get five track sessions in a day. I'd estimate he'd use 50 to 100 kWhr of energy during a session. You dump pack that much energy, but then how do you get the dump pack charged back up in 20 minutes? It would take three to six 240 V plugs. Otherwise, you'd need a dump pack about 3x the size of the car's pack, plus a 240 V charger, to keep up. That's about a ton of expensive lithium or about 3 tons of lead acid. At that point you need a big truck to haul the dump pack...

A modern diesel truck can provide 100 kW of charging via towing/regen without breaking a sweat. Another benefit is the towing would provide continued brake cooling (on my gasser I have to drive it about 4 miles after each session to cool the brakes and motor, otherwise both will overheat).

John Wayland was able to dump charge because he only needed to replace energy for 15 seconds of 1/4 mile, rather than a pack that drives a car road racing for 20 minutes.


Bowser330 said:


> I always throught the fastest way to charge a battery pack was to dump charge it from another battery pack, just like how John Wayland used to do with the white zombie pack in between runs....


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## Tractionlimit (Aug 20, 2010)

Interesting thought on the towing. I guess that's one argument against series DC... if only there were a single AC motor up to the performance of a Warp11 (and available to the average joe). 

I really do think road racing and regen will go hand in hand. The amount of energy turned into heat at every corner is truly amazing. The Porsche GT3 Hybrid shows that others are thinking seriously about this too.

I'm rethinking my plans for the moment. Don't want to bastardize a good Evo until I'm confident in the technology going in. If I can't match the performance of the car stock, at least for short periods, it'll be a waste.

Maybe I'd be smarter to experiment with a much lighter racer like an electric go kart to start with... Videos of the 70kW kart really caught my eye . Let me know if you have any ideas for me!


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## Pirape (Feb 26, 2009)

I am no expert with converting yet. One thing for sure is I am advising you to start making the conversion on a donor car 1st 

Nothing is holding you from purchasing the best electric componements and build & learn from a cheap car than *Maybe* ruining a 2008 Evo car because it does not met you expectations lol

I would really love to see something coming from you


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## Tractionlimit (Aug 20, 2010)

DavidDymaxion said:


> A modern diesel truck can provide 100 kW of charging via towing/regen without breaking a sweat. Another benefit is the towing would provide continued brake cooling (on my gasser I have to drive it about 4 miles after each session to cool the brakes and motor, otherwise both will overheat).


So theoretically, if you had a 100kWh pack and towed it for an hour, it would be fully charged?


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## DavidDymaxion (Dec 1, 2008)

That is a good point. The truck and regen could provide enough power, but most batteries need to have a slower charge rate at the end of charge. You could fill the batteries up to about 80% full very quickly, but have to live without the last 20% or put it in more slowly. Another limit is if your regenning motor can handle 100 kW for that long, and your 300 V pack can handle 300 A of charging current. Of course, there are losses, so the truck might have to provide 130 kW to get 100 kW into the pack -- but 130 kW is still easy for a modern diesel truck.

I estimate I was regenning 20+ kW into a 48V pack last year -- with higher Voltage I could easily get to about 50 kW -- with better cooling even more. I use 4/0 cable, the cable and battery terminals were cool to the touch. The motor, on the other hand, was quite hot. I was only using the stock internal fan and running at max field amps. With an external fan and controller I expect the motor to run much cooler.


Tractionlimit said:


> So theoretically, if you had a 100kWh pack and towed it for an hour, it would be fully charged?


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## Bowser330 (Jun 15, 2008)

Tractionlimit said:


> Interesting thought on the towing. I guess that's one argument against series DC... *if only there were a single AC motor up to the performance of a Warp11 (and available to the average joe). *
> 
> I really do think road racing and regen will go hand in hand. The amount of energy turned into heat at every corner is truly amazing. The Porsche GT3 Hybrid shows that others are thinking seriously about this too.
> 
> ...


So yes its not a single motor...but two of them, one on each axle, would be perfect! Keep in mind the price includes the controller, so all thats needed is the proper differential gearing for the speed range you desire and batteries...

http://currentevtech.com/Drive-Syst...ers/120KW-BLDC-Motor-and-Controller-p168.html

@336V max power = 120kw each (336V * 360A)

@460V max power = 165kw each (460V * 360A)??

165kw *2 = 330kw /.745 = 443hp!

Peak torque is 635NM EACH!, so two of them = 1270NM = 937ftlbs 

The Battery situation is what it is...however with this setup your max amp draw is only 720A!! (360A for each drive system)

So you need a pack that has 460V and 720A (Continuous for road racing, Peak if for drag racing)

A123 Cell Pack
2860#cells 
$42,900
440lbs
460V & 46AH = 21kwh
21kwh (1380A continuous current capability)
21kw in 1 hour
42kw in 30 min
84kw in 15 min
168kw in 7.5 min
336kw in 3.75 min??


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

You're talking about almost 500lbs of motor and controller, each!  Not what you want in a performance vehicle, terrible power to weight ratio.


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## Bowser330 (Jun 15, 2008)

JRP3 said:


> You're talking about almost 500lbs of motor and controller, each!  Not what you want in a performance vehicle, terrible power to weight ratio.


jumpin jehosaphat! 

scratch my above post Traction!!! Stick with the DC setup!


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## Tractionlimit (Aug 20, 2010)

Bowser330 said:


> scratch my above post Traction!!! Stick with the DC setup!


Not to mention the fact that $30K worth of motors and controllers would likely put the total build in the $100K range. 

Here are the dilemmas with performance AWD, before even getting to the issue of battery cost/weight:

1) Single DC motors are available large enough to bolt to the existing AWD driveline, but cannot regen or be quick charged through towing. This is still the most cost effective option, however. The low 5,000RPM powerband could be extended by shifting.

2) The question remains whether the stock transmission could handle the torque.

3) Dual motors F&R necessitates single speed, which all but rules out DC.

QUESTION:
why can't industrial AC motors be used in an EV?

Thanks.


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## Bowser330 (Jun 15, 2008)

Tractionlimit said:


> Not to mention the fact that $30K worth of motors and controllers would likely put the total build in the $100K range.
> 
> Here are the dilemmas with performance AWD, before even getting to the issue of battery cost/weight:
> 
> ...


From what I've read, industrial AC motors have to be re-wired for higher rpm and even then the peak power isn't even close to the peak power of a DC11"HV...

Ive read they are heavy, mostly with steel frames, although lighter aluminum frame models are available..

The australian EV organization has quite a few threads on re-wiring and using Industrial AC motors...

On the controller/inverter side of things, I am not sure if there are any cost effective DIY available inverters out there that can match up with DC in terms of peak power...

DC = 270V (sagged) * 1400A = 378kw = 500hp

AC inverters are around the 400-700V range and 300A-400A max amperage range, so even with 700V * 400A = 280kw = 376hp


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## DavidDymaxion (Dec 1, 2008)

It's a "yes and no" thing on regen with a DC motor. The "yes" part is I did tow regen yesterday and the day before on the Salt Flats with a sepex DC motor. It worked great. So, yes it can be done. The "no" part is you cannot buy an off-the-shelf high power sepex, so it's not a practical solution for most people.


Tractionlimit said:


> ... 1) Single DC motors are available large enough to bolt to the existing AWD driveline, but cannot regen or be quick charged through towing. ...


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

It's basically a "no" and "no" thing with the more common series DC motors.


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## DavidDymaxion (Dec 1, 2008)

Well put! Here's a table:

AC ........ yes . yes
DC sepex .. yes . no
DC series .. no . no



JRP3 said:


> It's basically a "no" and "no" thing with the more common series DC motors.


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## FLORIANVOKO (Oct 7, 2013)

Tractionlimit said:


> Hello, I would like to introduce myself and my dream EV conversion. I currently own a 2008 Mitsu Evolution X which has been heavily modified for racing/time attack, but still is a daily driver. It now has over 40,000 hard miles at over double the stock horsepower on E85 fuel (making nearly 575bhp). Although I love the car, I'm thinking the stock powertrain may be ready to scream "uncle". Instead of going the usual route of building a bigger, stronger gas motor, bigger turbo, etc., I want to do something different.
> 
> I have about $50K into the car now, and may be able to sell the powertrain to help finance the project. I would expect to invest close to another $50K to convert. I want to keep the total project less than current Tesla price. Engineering will be done myself and with the help of local experts and the online community here.
> 
> ...


Hi my Name is florian & im new here in these forum.
i found you searching some data for convertion of evo 8 2004 RHD to full electric .
with the hope that you realize the project.
and with the hope that u will share the experience with me.
io would like to direct some questions.
can i...?


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## epyon (Mar 20, 2008)

I am a road racer too . And the road to speed is kind of tricky here . But , you have the money to build this car (no regine)yesterday . Get a Soliton 1 or a Shiva and a custom built Warp 13 (two custom motor builders that can do it yesterday) and you"ll be at your goal easy . Or do what I"m doing on the cheap , if you can rewind a AC motor, an bit the bullit an save money for a monster AC controller . I want a 10,000 rpm motor . If a fully modified Warp 13 could do 8,200 and or 9,200 rpm and stay together I"d just buy it . But everyone says it can't so , AC I go .


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## Karter2 (Nov 17, 2011)

I suspect you have already realised this but to confirm...
Ignoring all the other considerations of your project, the biggest factor with any "performance" EV is the battery pack.
consider the battery as the equivalent to the motor in your ICE
Capacity, discharge rating, weight, recharge rate, size, cost, safety, etc etc are all critical factors that have to be most likely compromised at some level.
Even the drag racers have a hard time finding a pack with the best power/ weight/cost.. ratio.


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