# New Solar Vehicle (with pedals)



## _GonZo_ (Mar 23, 2009)

Hi all,

Sometime ago I started a project of a "velomobile" as a hobby project and latter on it has become more a business project like, and what was at first a simple car with pedals, now is a Solar Vehicle with a fully enclosed structure, made with sustainable and easy to source materials, out of the self components, as it is an Open Source Harware project...

At this moment we are getting close to prototype this Solar Vehicle that we called mö with the intention to market it, and we need feedback. Will you be so kind to fill our poll, you will not use more than 3 minutes. And there is no need of registration.
Here is the link:
http://www.evovelo.com/en/poll.php
Thank you.
Questions welcome.

(The picture is just a render of how it will look like)


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## samwichse (Jan 28, 2012)

Looks like a poorly made copy of the ELF velomobile with even worse aero.

http://www.crazyengineers.com/threa...-like-the-tricycle-power-it-by-the-sun.66798/


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## Hollie Maea (Dec 9, 2009)

Tough crowd...


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## samwichse (Jan 28, 2012)




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## _GonZo_ (Mar 23, 2009)

The fairing from the picture attached and others like the tear drop trailers or the Le Corbusier car, were our initial shape inspirations about 3 years ago.
Then the Elf appeared on the market with a very similar shape as our idea, so I think it is just a confluence of designs, and I think is good.

But yes the Elf from Organic Transit has been very inspirational for us and they are together with the Twike people the pioneers opening the market. Actually I put money on the Organic Transit crowd funding campaign and I follow all they progress. 

Anyway although the shape is similar to the Elf, the characteristics are quite different, it is a two seater vehicle (side by side) with a monocoque structure, fully enclosed so you can park it and lock it, as well it has a quite big trunk for cargo or up to 2 child seats.

The flat panels and simple curves shapes has a reason: It is an Open Source Hardware project so we are using easy to source materials that can be cutter with standard CNC routing or even with hand tools.


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## samwichse (Jan 28, 2012)

I think you mean monocoque .

Why are you going with side-by-side seating vs tandem in a vehicle where aero drag is going to be critical?


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## _GonZo_ (Mar 23, 2009)

samwichse said:


> I think you mean monocoque .
> 
> Why are you going with side-by-side seating vs tandem in a vehicle where aero drag is going to be critical?


Thank you for the "monocoque" spelling tip, will edit the post.

Why design a 2 seater for people sitting next to each other?
Well there is several reasons I can think of:

- Two sets of eyes looking ahead, 2nd person to help with navigation and pedaling.
- More social, easier to talk to, hold hands, kiss/etc. when stopped in traffic..
- It takes more space.
There is a couple of benefits in taking more space, more cargo area and safety !
If you take up the whole lane such that you don't end up squeezed to the side of the road, it will be safer.
Plus a larger vehicle can has more of a buffer zone between you can other vehicles when if they hit you.
- As well as it is a 3 wheeler there is less tipping issues when cornering if the vehicle is wider.
- And maybe the most important issue, nobody likes to seat in the back…

So we have decided to sacrifice aerodynamics in favor of ergonomics, social, space and safety.


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## _GonZo_ (Mar 23, 2009)

Another view of the vehicle:


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## nimblemotors (Oct 1, 2010)

Calling this a 'solar' vehicle is false and misleading.

At the speeds this vehicle is safe to operate, aerodynamics are not a big issue.


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## _GonZo_ (Mar 23, 2009)

We think of it a bit different from you nimblemotors. 

Being purist, a pure solar car will be running on sun only and it should not even have batteries, but that will be completely useless, if there is no sun or you drive throw a shadowed area the vehicle will just not move...
So any solar car needs batteries or other system that store energy, and it is still considered a solar vehicle. In our case the solar panel charges the battery while the vehicle is being ride and when it is parked.

The solar panel will not give as much power as the motor consumes, but it charges the battery while the vehicle is running or parked. So if your daily commute is around 20-30 miles on a sunny area you will provably never need to charge the battery. If there is no sun or you need to make more miles (50+) then you can plug the vehicle into a normal wall socket or take the battery out and charge it at home, office, restaurant…

So most cases (usual daily commute <20miles) on sunny areas it will be a pure solar vehicle, on not sunny areas or during winter season then it will be a solar aided car then… 

About the aerodynamics you are right have decided to sacrifice aerodynamics in favor of ergonomics, social, space, safety and easy manufacturing, As the speeds aren't high.

Attached a picture representing where the solar panel will be installed in the mö, the size of the panel provably will be much larger than in the picture:


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

Hi GonZo

I appreciate that you are talking about a low speed vehicle, but have you done the calculations?

I estimate that you will get 100 watts for 4 hours out of your panels
That means 400 watthours of energy
for 20 miles that is 20 watthours/mile

That will probably move your vehicle at less than walking speed


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## _GonZo_ (Mar 23, 2009)

Duncan said:


> Hi GonZo
> 
> I appreciate that you are talking about a low speed vehicle, but have you done the calculations?
> 
> ...


We expect to gather a bit more energy than that, more less about 150W x 4 hours = 600Wh, more with good sun. 

With a full load weight, 2 passengers plus some cargo (250Kg) at a medium speed of 45Km/h will be able to run for 25Km (15 miles+) not adding any pedaling.
If you add to that some pedaling you may be able to get 20 miles.

With only one passenger, being careful to park it under the sun and pedaling a little that range can go up to 30 miles, only with sun and human power.


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

20 miles
at 3 mph!


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## samwichse (Jan 28, 2012)

_GonZo_ said:


> 150W x 4 hours = 600Wh, more with good sun.
> 
> With a full load weight, 2 passengers plus some cargo (250Kg) at a medium speed of 45Km/h will be able to run for 25Km (15 miles+) not adding any pedaling.
> If you add to that some pedaling you may be able to get 20 miles.


OK, I'm done here. This is totally unrealistic.

And at "low speeds" like 45km/h your aero will be killing you, or have never ridden a bicycle before?


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## _GonZo_ (Mar 23, 2009)

Yep you are right Samwichse at that speed 45Km/h the force of aero resistance is almost double than force of rolling resistance, to be exact for this vehicle is 39N for aero drag force and 22N for rolling drag force at that speed.
So in order to keep that speed on flat needs around 760W.
Counting an efficiency of 70% on the motor/controller then it needs around 1000W from the battery.

The motor and battery will be able to give over that power with out problems.

Adding a mere 100W from the pedals from the 2 passengers may reduce the current from the battery around 130W as the pedal power goes directly to the wheel.




> 20 miles
> at 3 mph!


45Km/h = 27.9mph not 3


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

760 watts minus 100watts from the passengers (good luck getting as much as that)
equals 660 watts - at 70% = 942 watts from the battery
(dunno where you got 130watts)

400watthours (no way you are going to get 600watthours) at 942watts is 25 minutes

25 minutes at 45 Kph is 19Km or 11 miles
With no allowance for;
acceleration, wind, gradient,......

If you want or except to go 20 miles you will need to drop your speed down
maybe not as slow as 3 mph but well below 45 kph

I would also query your drag numbers you seem to predict that aero drag at 45 kph will be 2/3 of the total drag
A bike at 45 Kph aero drag is over 80% of the total drag


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## Karter2 (Nov 17, 2011)

What/ where is your target market ?
Most of Europe & Asia is 250W legal limit for unregistered trikes, only the 
US has a 750w limit, so you will have to make it fully " street legal" and liable for registration fees, inspections, and driver licensing , etc to run at 1000W, which could detract from the initial appeal.
But even with 1000+W I seriously doubt the performance of a 250kg trike with the frontal area suggested. Any incline will be a major issue


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## _GonZo_ (Mar 23, 2009)

Obviously the info that I am posting are estimations but it is based on data from:

Eco Races that we collaborate every year with a team that competes with a solar vehicle. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shell_Eco-marathon)
Data extracted from aerodynamics and mechanical/electric simulations.
Data from simulations on best and worst scenarios.




> 760 watts minus 100watts from the passengers (good luck getting as much as that)


In order to ride a bicycle it is necessary to produce with your body at least around 100W, any healthy persons can handle that without a problem. (We are just counting with half of it from each passenger) Trained bicycle rides can go over 200W continuous. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bicycle_performance)



> equals 660 watts - at 70% = 942 watts from the battery
> (dunno where you got 130watts)


I think you mismatched the numbers 
760W mechanical requires: 1000W from battery
660W mechanical requires: 868W from battery
With an estimated efficient of 70% from controller/motor system.
So is a difference of 131W



> 400watthours (no way you are going to get 600watthours) at 942watts is 25 minutes


The fact is we usually get over 600Wh day on the 200W solar panel that we will use, on normal sun days and almost double on really sunny days.



> 25 minutes at 45 Kph is 19Km or 11 miles
> With no allowance for;
> acceleration, wind, gradient,......
> 
> ...


You are right on that all this is just an estimation on flat and continuous speed.
In order to get real number several real world test will be need.
That includes lower speed, higher speed, accelerations, uphill, downhill, etc.
But the only way to do a good comparison for us on different systems is to start with just flat.



> I would also query your drag numbers you seem to predict that aero drag at 45 kph will be 2/3 of the total drag
> A bike at 45 Kph aero drag is over 80% of the total drag


A bicycle has one of the worst aerodynamics possible, actually a brick can be more aerodynamic 
Anyway our vehicle is not very good on aerodynamics either  that was not our target.


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## samwichse (Jan 28, 2012)

_GonZo_ said:


> I think you mismatched the numbers
> 760W mechanical requires: 1000W from battery
> 660W mechanical requires: 868W from battery
> With an estimated efficient of 70% from controller/motor system.
> So is a difference of 131W


I think you need to do a basic sanity check on your numbers.

Not sure how you could get 70% of 1000 wrong.

To get 760w @ 70% is 1086w at the battery.

To get 660w @ 70% is 943w.


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## _GonZo_ (Mar 23, 2009)

Sorry my bad, I was rounding the numbers:

Power to mantain Speed (W)	763,906
Power from Battery to mantain Speed (W) 1.091,295


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## Intrepid Wheelwoman (Aug 25, 2015)

As a very new chum to electric vehicles and someone who lives with a disability I have to say I like what I see with this velocar. I live in a small country town, my travel distances are generally no more than 3 km at the most and we don't have much in the way of hills. As a long time bicycle and tricycle rider I like the fact that this vehicle has pedals because regular exercise is important for me because I don't do so well walking very far these days.

A point of concern is the width of this velocar at 1.4 metres. The circa 1930s Mochet velocar was only 1.079 meters wide and it also had side by side seating for two adults, - so I'm finding myself wondering why the extra width necessary.


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## ken will (Dec 19, 2009)

Intrepid Wheelwoman said:


> A point of concern is the width of this velocar at 1.4 metres. The circa 1930s Mochet velocar was only 1.079 meters wide and it also had side by side seating for two adults, - so I'm finding myself wondering why the extra width necessary.


At 1.4 meters it can comfortably hold 3 normal humans, 2 typical Americans, or 1 Kim Kardashian.


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## Intrepid Wheelwoman (Aug 25, 2015)

ken will said:


> At 1.4 meters it can comfortably hold 3 normal humans, 2 typical Americans, or 1 Kim Kardashian.


Well there you go then, - I'm a skinny vegetarian and I don't need the width


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

Hi 
Location "New Zealand"?

Where about?
I'm in Gore, Southlands


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## Intrepid Wheelwoman (Aug 25, 2015)

Paeroa, Hauraki District. And yes it's the 'Lemon & Paeroa' Paeroa where I live


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## _GonZo_ (Mar 23, 2009)

> A point of concern is the width of this velocar at 1.4 metres. The circa 1930s Mochet velocar was only 1.079 meters wide and it also had side by side seating for two adults, - so I'm finding myself wondering why the extra width necessary.



I understand your concern about the width, but there is several reasons for that:
- Safety. A bigger vehicle is more visible for other road users, and there is more crush space between you and the vehicle body in case of an accident.
- Stability. A wider vehicle is more stable when cornering and breaking.
- Comfort. More space for the passengers.
- Solar area. We need surface for the solar panel, the more the better 

Anyway we are working in order to make it a bit narrower but not much, only around 10cm less.


The Mochet did not had a top enclosed structure so you could move your shoulders out of the structure, see picture to understand what I mean:
(I know it is not a Mochet but you got the idea…)


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## _GonZo_ (Mar 23, 2009)

Update on the design:
This past week I was designing the seat of the mö, as per the designing program it will be 2.3Kg and on real world probably will be around 2.5Kg. not bad I think.

Frame will be made with laminated 15mm. plywood, glued together.
The seat plate 2.5mm ABS or similar screwed to the frame.
And then a padding, that I have no idea where to find it or how to make it…


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

Hi Intrepid
Do you need the "enclosure"?
I tend to the idea of wearing the weatherproofing - cycling clothes 

With a very light vehicle any time that you actually need the enclosure the weather makes it actively dangerous

All that area being grabbed by the wind and blown off the road - not to mention the difficulty in keeping the windscreen clear

I have ridden recumbent trikes - they are great fun - but a recumbent two wheeler is even more fun


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## _GonZo_ (Mar 23, 2009)

It is long time I do not update this post, we have been quite busy with the project.
Now we have an alpha prototype that works quite well, and we are improving all systems on it.
Picture attached on the middle of the construction process and finished.

More pictures on flick: https://www.flickr.com/photos/evovelo/23798753632/


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## samwichse (Jan 28, 2012)

You'd probably increase your range by 5% for free by eliminating those huge, wind catching fenders.

Just use some tire-sized bike fenders instead if you must have them.

http://www.niagaracycle.com/categor...ke-16-20-x-2?gclid=CP7UocqlmcsCFUJkhgodCi4A_Q

Maybe you could make an optionally narrower single-seat model?


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## AjcGuerra (2 mo ago)

Hello my name is Anderson Guerra and I live in Republic of Ireland. I am a super fan of your Mo and I’ve been trying to contact you guys to discuss a way how I could buy the plans to produce 01 vehicle for me.
I was an architect and in 2018 I suffered a work accident the left unable to work and move around freely.
Having the mo in my life would change my quality of life, because finally I would be able to go for cycle in a fully enclosed environment and with someone to watch me as I can pass out while pedalling duo to my disability.
Please, if you can, consider helping me and my family to regain a bit of freedom, by selling me the detailed plans and a license to produce 1 family vehicle.
And I am very sorry about those people in the comments. Is really easy to criticise other people‘s courage to put themselves out there and do something about their dreams while those people never had done anything like and probably will never do.
Here is a quote that Brene Brown brought to my attention that talks exactly about that where you should pay no attention to those that aren’t willing to put themselves in the arena like you:
“It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; . . . who at best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who at worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly.”
Theodore Roosevelt


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