# Chance for LiPo 12V battery



## Gozer (Jul 3, 2008)

While I am just getting started on my EV, I ran into an importer who is looking into getting these batteries in just for me, or perhaps as a business opp ortunity involving anyone interested. This is a very early stage of what may certainly not work out, yet he has a track record of bringing in products(legally) from China and India.

In a 12V format, what sort of amps should we be willing to accept or what price would stimulate interest? My guess is about 5000.00 for 144V would make a significant amount of us change our battery packs.


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## frodus (Apr 12, 2008)

how many Ah? 5000 wouldn't be that bad of a deal for 40Ah 144V pack...but many cars need more than that.

100Ah and now you're talkin.


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## Whitey_87 (May 30, 2008)

I wonder why we haven't seen a 12v lithium on the shelf yet. You'd think that all of these manufactures especially A123 want to sell product - well just improve on the standard starter battery and go from there. Dunno.


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## ClintK (Apr 27, 2008)

Gozer said:


> While I am just getting started on my EV, I ran into an importer who is looking into getting these batteries in just for me, or perhaps as a business opp ortunity involving anyone interested. This is a very early stage of what may certainly not work out, yet he has a track record of bringing in products(legally) from China and India.
> 
> In a 12V format, what sort of amps should we be willing to accept or what price would stimulate interest? My guess is about 5000.00 for 144V would make a significant amount of us change our battery packs.


I would be impressed and interested if you had a pack with decent amp hours for $5000. There are definitely business opportunities in this. Whoever makes a 12V Lithium Phosphate pack with BMS where you can series/parallel them as you wish just like Lead Acids would make a killing. I could go to their website, select 10 12V packs, ship to ###, here's my credit card (with huge credit limit), and in 2 to 3 weeks have ready to go packs? That would be awesome.

Mass producing a standard 12V pack is the way to go. I'm actually expecting someone will do this by the time I need new batteries in 2 to 3 years. Or maybe its a business opportunity I should get into now...


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## Jeremy (Jul 12, 2008)

There's at least one 12V LiFePO4 battery on the shelf, but the guy that runs the company has a bit of a reputation for misrepresentation, slagging off any opposition and generally treating potential customers as if they are pretty worthless individuals. I'd not buy from him on a point of principle, but there is some limited evidence that the product he markets might possibly be OK. See here for some data (but be prepared for a shock at the price!): http://www.lifebatt.com/ (sorry, I've just checked the site and it looks like the chap that runs the show has screwed up his own website.............).

The UK site seems to be still working though, so here's a link to that one http://www.lifebatt.co.uk/

Jeremy


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## xrotaryguy (Jul 26, 2007)

I voted yes: $5,000 for a 144V system. I know that price doesn't exist yet, but here's hopin'


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## saab96 (Mar 19, 2008)

Jeremy said:


> There's at least one 12V LiFePO4 battery on the shelf


Wouldn't that be two? Valence is the one that offered lead-acid style 12v packs, but they charged an arm and a leg for them. Not sure if they even sell direct anymore.


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## skullbearer (Jul 9, 2008)

Jeremy said:


> There's at least one 12V LiFePO4 battery on the shelf, but the guy that runs the company has a bit of a reputation for misrepresentation, slagging off any opposition and generally treating potential customers as if they are pretty worthless individuals. I'd not buy from him on a point of principle, but there is some limited evidence that the product he markets might possibly be OK. See here for some data (but be prepared for a shock at the price!): http://www.lifebatt.com/ (sorry, I've just checked the site and it looks like the chap that runs the show has screwed up his own website.............).
> 
> The UK site seems to be still working though, so here's a link to that one http://www.lifebatt.co.uk/
> 
> Jeremy


The website is pretty decent now, and since he/they offers a 3,000 cycle warranty, they seem like a very solid platform for an EV conversion. I did some rough calculations and its still cheaper to build your own pack from that german lithium company using their 7.5ah UHP cells, at $2.11 a cell from several different websites, but not by too much, and given the 12v packs are easily incorporated and have warranty... I'd definitely go that route. And you can even swap them right into a Lead Acid conversion with only minor tweaking for the increased amps!


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## Jeremy (Jul 12, 2008)

The website's still screwed for me - I just get a Beijing Olympics banner that comes down and blocks the rest of the site, plus what looks like lines of html code. The banner won't click off and the rest of the site remains a mystery behind it. Maybe this is just a non-microsoft browser thing.............

I'd check the small print on the cycle life very, very carefully. Last time this guy claimed a cycle life for these cells in the thousands, backed by Sandia Labs testing, it turned out this was only valid when the cells were cycled between 45% SOC and 55% SOC (just 10% discharge/charge depth), not really much use for an EV (Sandia were apparently testing them for hybrid use, which needs many thousands of shallow cycles, rather then lots of capacity). The UK website says the normal warranty is 1500 cycles, quote : _"LiFeBATT warrant only to the original purchaser of this battery that it is free of defects in material and workmanship for 3 Years or 1,500 Cycles, (whichever comes first). PLEASE NOTE 3,000 Cycles available in certain applications."_

Maybe these are really good cells, with an excellent warranty. Maybe I'm just overly suspicious because of the overdose of hype I've been exposed to about them. If they do turn out to be as good as the claims, then that's great, as we need good reliable cells with a high power density and long cycle life.

Jeremy


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## skullbearer (Jul 9, 2008)

LifeBATT link from the DIY Wiki

You're right though, the main site doesn't work, I can see parts of pretty pictures of olympic sports with the words 'Lithium Battery Manufacturer' over them, which makes absolutely no sense, all of that though is covered by the damn olympic banner.

I don't see how we can read the fine print or purchase without the site being accessible.


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## TX_Dj (Jul 25, 2008)

Well, I mean, I could build a lithium 144v nominal pack for about $250, but it only has about 750 mAh capacity, or for $5000 I could build the same for about 15 Ah capacity. Give or take.

The real key here is A) what is the Ah capacity (at any rate), and B) would they include BMS for series charging? If it was a 50 Ah pack at that cost, I might consider it, if it was a 100 Ah pack, I'd jump on it. If it was more than that, I'd buy two.


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## etischer (Jun 16, 2008)

I'm waiting to pull the trigger as well. 300v 50Ah, 300A. I really hate to buy lead acid and add 1400 lbs to my car when a 400 lb option is out there. Seems every time I've asked for a quote, the company has no interest in selling to the general public.


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## etischer (Jun 16, 2008)

try http://www.lifebatt.com/hotlinks.html



Jeremy said:


> There's at least one 12V LiFePO4 battery on the shelf, but the guy that runs the company has a bit of a reputation for misrepresentation, slagging off any opposition and generally treating potential customers as if they are pretty worthless individuals. I'd not buy from him on a point of principle, but there is some limited evidence that the product he markets might possibly be OK. See here for some data (but be prepared for a shock at the price!): http://www.lifebatt.com/ (sorry, I've just checked the site and it looks like the chap that runs the show has screwed up his own website.............).
> 
> The UK site seems to be still working though, so here's a link to that one http://www.lifebatt.co.uk/
> 
> Jeremy


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## TX_Dj (Jul 25, 2008)

At what rate are those Ah figures on the lifebatt site?

Seems to me that a 53 lbs 120Ah 12v is not that much lighter than a lead acid of similar specs. Unless it's 120Ah at the immediate rate.


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## skullbearer (Jul 9, 2008)

TX_Dj said:


> At what rate are those Ah figures on the lifebatt site?
> 
> Seems to me that a 53 lbs 120Ah 12v is not that much lighter than a lead acid of similar specs. Unless it's 120Ah at the immediate rate.


no kidding, those ARE very heavy for the Wh.

Buying separate cells and arranging them with BMS still seems like the best option.


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## frodus (Apr 12, 2008)

skullbearer said:


> no kidding, those ARE very heavy for the Wh.
> 
> Buying separate cells and arranging them with BMS still seems like the best option.


they're 10C rated... not 2-3 like thundersky, potential of 1200A if you have a 12parallel setup.


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## skullbearer (Jul 9, 2008)

Lithium Tech UHP 7.5ah individual cells

Good size to power, 16C rated. Forget thundersky.

EDIT: Couple different battery warehouse sites list them as $2.06-2.11 per Wh

http://wiki.saymoo.org/EvdlGems/Batteries/Lithiums Battery Wiki that has the prices of several different options per Wh


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