# 192volt horsepower on a warp 9



## DIYguy (Sep 18, 2008)

Jason Lattimer said:


> Hey all,
> 
> I found a controller made by Electrocraft. The large controller runs up to 192volts. The 500 amp model is $895 and the 800 amp model is $1495 dollars. If I used either model with a warp 9 at its rated 192 volt maximum how much power would it produce at either amperage?
> I want to build a small car or trike and 1800 pounds is about all it will be pushing. Just wondering how it should perform.


Hi Jason,

Darius (electrocraft) is building the first 800 amp model for me now. (silly me) The design is done and components are ordered. There is a thread on here about this controller. http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showthread.php/electrocraft-evmtc-60-192v-dc-400a-25243.html Most DC motors are spec'd for about 170 volts. How high can you go with special considerations??? Well, I'm not really sure. Here is what I plan to do. My control will control motor voltage to what I want. I spec'd it to regulate to 170 volts maximum. My battery pack will consist of 15 x 12 volt AGM's for 180 volt nominal. It will obviously hit some higher values after full charge. The control will take 250 volts without damage. The nice thing about running higher voltage is the reduced current draw for the same power. This should theoretically allow you to improve the usable power from your pack due to peukerts. Depending on the type of batteries you run, it will make for some pretty peppy acceleration also. The brushes on a DC motor need to be advanced for running higher voltage. 10 degrees is common for a 144 volt application with a 9" motor. Mine is advanced 13 degrees. I plan on insulating the entire brush holder area and components with liquid electric tape also. 

Should be interesting.

Gary


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## Bowser330 (Jun 15, 2008)

DIYguy said:


> Hi Jason,
> 
> Darius (electrocraft) is building the first 800 amp model for me now. (silly me) The design is done and components are ordered. There is a thread on here about this controller. http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showthread.php/electrocraft-evmtc-60-192v-dc-400a-25243.html Most DC motors are spec'd for about 170 volts. How high can you go with special considerations??? Well, I'm not really sure. Here is what I plan to do. My control will control motor voltage to what I want. I spec'd it to regulate to 170 volts maximum. My battery pack will consist of 15 x 12 volt AGM's for 180 volt nominal. It will obviously hit some higher values after full charge. The control will take 250 volts without damage. The nice thing about running higher voltage is the reduced current draw for the same power. This should theoretically allow you to improve the usable power from your pack due to peukerts. Depending on the type of batteries you run, it will make for some pretty peppy acceleration also. The brushes on a DC motor need to be advanced for running higher voltage. 10 degrees is common for a 144 volt application with a 9" motor. Mine is advanced 13 degrees. I plan on insulating the entire brush holder area and components with liquid electric tape also.
> 
> ...


Gary i might be right behind you and JL in line to get the electrocraft controller if it can really give up to 192V and 800Amp output...

more importantly though, how can we get the motors to handle higher voltages? you mentioned "special considerations", im assuming rebuilding them, coating them, strengthening, larger gauge of wire?, etc...

http://www.evconsultinginc.com/34ford.html 

This website has a hotrod project that was usuing dc motors originally meant for a dragster.. (about the midddle of the page) They claim 400V DC Maximum.... 

If we can get an affordable rebuild to 200V DC maximum then this Electrocraft 192V controller could use all its voltage AND 800A = 150kw = 200hp = near tesla power!


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## DIYguy (Sep 18, 2008)

Bowser330 said:


> Gary i might be right behind you and JL in line to get the electrocraft controller if it can really give up to 192V and 800Amp output...
> 
> more importantly though, how can we get the motors to handle higher voltages? you mentioned "special considerations", im assuming rebuilding them, coating them, strengthening, larger gauge of wire?, etc...
> 
> ...


This controller will handle 192 volts.. and this rating is with a healthy safety margin. The main reason is that unlike most controllers (except Zilla, not sure about Raptor), this unit uses IGBT's instead of MOSFET's. 

I'm no motor expert, but the most important issue WRT motors and higher voltage is the brush arcing. The insulation is good for much much more. To prevent flashover, the brush timing must be advanced for higher voltage. Some motors/applications use variable brush timing. I am also planing to insulate the entire brush component area. I will send u a link on that, or post it. (I think I did a thread on this maybe). http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showthread.php/insulating-higher-voltage-26426.html I may experiment with higher voltage on my motor also. I am planning to size my components to allow for this. (First I must figure out how to get a handle on it ) 

You don't have to worry about wire size, or bearings in most cases. You do need to know the maximum RPM for your motor though. I have less than $200 in my motor and $130 or so, of it is for new brushes. I plan to cool the motor with a blower also.


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## Bowser330 (Jun 15, 2008)

I am sure the insulation will help but by how much...

Also a large blower should help cool things down for sure....

People say you lose your low end grunt when you advance the timing, however the way i see it, if you have so much torque that its wasted spinning the wheels, why not advance the brushes 25 degrees, and make a high voltage, higher horsepower motor, with higher rpm, That still has plenty of neck snapping torque but also a comparable upper end...???


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## DIYguy (Sep 18, 2008)

Bowser330 said:


> I am sure the insulation will help but by how much...
> 
> Also a large blower should help cool things down for sure....
> 
> People say you lose your low end grunt when you advance the timing, however the way i see it, if you have so much torque that its wasted spinning the wheels, why not advance the brushes 25 degrees, and make a high voltage, higher horsepower motor, with higher rpm, That still has plenty of neck snapping torque but also a comparable upper end...???


I have never heard of advancing brush timing this far. I am not sure what the drag racers do, I'm sure they have their tricks.

I would contact Jim Husted for further info. He is the guru. Google Hi-torque electric. His contact info is on there. Read the thread on motors from lift trucks... the sticky at the top also. He is the one who started that thread.

G


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

Bowser330 said:


> why not advance the brushes 25 degrees, ???


Because that would give really lousy torque and most likely cause arcing on the other side of the brush contact.

On these 4 pole motors, every mechanical degree is worth 2 electrical (or magnetic) degrees. A shift of 180 electrical degrees reverses rotation. So, on a 4 pole motor, a 90 degree mechanical rotation of the brushes would reverse rotation. Somewhere about 45 degrees, you get into the "no torque" region.

Shifting (or advancing) brushes is like weakening the field of the motor. This will give you less torque per amp. And when you're talking about 10 or more mechanical degrees, it can be a significant torque reduction. This is the reason why the drag guys are looking at mechanisms to advance the brush position as the speed comes up, so they don't lose that torque off the line.

Regards,

major


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## DIYguy (Sep 18, 2008)

major said:


> Because that would give really lousy torque and most likely cause arcing on the other side of the brush contact.
> 
> On these 4 pole motors, every mechanical degree is worth 2 electrical (or magnetic) degrees. A shift of 180 electrical degrees reverses rotation. So, on a 4 pole motor, a 90 degree mechanical rotation of the brushes would reverse rotation. Somewhere about 45 degrees, you get into the "no torque" region.
> 
> ...


Thanks Major, a very nice description for the motor-challenged...like me.


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## Bowser330 (Jun 15, 2008)

DIYguy said:


> Thanks Major, a very nice description for the motor-challenged...like me.


and me!

+1

Thanks major..

so adjustable motor timing is where its at...so you can advance it while moving? interesting....


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## DIYguy (Sep 18, 2008)

Bowser330 said:


> and me!
> 
> +1
> 
> ...


The idea would be to start out at aligned (zero) timing and advance as your rpm increases. I've seen the adjustable brush set up. Does anyone here know how the racers do this automatically? I relate it to weights and springs in the older ICE distrubutors. (We use to mess with these for a quicker advance.)  It would be nice to have an "auto" advance method based on motor rpm. I think I could come up with something. It's surprising more ppl haven't incorporated this for everyday EV's...  It's not a big dilema I don't think, to solve.

G


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## dbonner (May 7, 2009)

Hi, I've made a servo-driven variable advance for my Jim Husted-built motor, see picture. 

The controller is a Zilla 1K, battery pack is a Derek Barger A123 80s8p good for 500 amps at 200 volts. I have 1000 amps to the motor from zero to 100 volts. 
The car is a lightweight hillclimb/sprint design, RWD with a limited slip diff. 

I am planning to run the advance from zero to 15 degrees. 

I have not yet programmed the arduino board to drive the servo. I can choose to program the advance relative to motor RPM or to voltage. 
Which is correct? 

The motor RPM will be strictly proportional to speed, it's a fixed 5:1 drive. 
However, the voltage is not strictly proportional, if I'm putting 1000 amps in the voltage at the motor will be higher than if I'm putting in 100 amps, at identical RPM. 

Question is, should I be varying with RPM or with input voltage? 
By the way the servo is lightning quick so if I decide to program it for voltage, I can vary the advance as quickly as the voltage varies in case of stepping suddenly on the accelerator pedal. 

Thanks for any advice you all might have


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## steveob (Nov 10, 2017)

you want it slaved to armature current I *think*. You might be able to approximate that from rpm and voltage with some data points.


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## dbonner (May 7, 2009)

Um... sounds improbable, if I slave it to armature current then I can end up with full 15 degree advance at zero RPM. That doesn't make sense to me...


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## Bird of Prey (Aug 24, 2016)

That is awesome !!!! Can you do that for a Warp 11 (2) . If I can put more power to the rotor than stator and advance it , I might be able to get to get to 8,500 RPM without arcing as bad . And make torque up high . Making a weight advance would be easy . The Warp 11 motors do have a shaft on both ends . Half pound weights should be be enough to move it an keep good pressure on the brushes .


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

Hi Dbonner

I'm using an 11 inch motor with 8 degrees advance and 1200 amps in a road legal two seater - RWD 55% on rear wheels a 4.1:1 LSD and sticky "competition tyres"

So I lose about 20% of torque at zero rpm
BUT
I can still spin the tyres 

If you have a lightweight special and 1000 amps you may not need to have a variable advance!

If you do - I think it's all about RPM

You want to reduce arcing - which gets worse with current

If you advance by RPM and you are at low current then you are only wanting lower torque anyway - so it doesn't matter


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## Bird of Prey (Aug 24, 2016)

will that get me to 8,500 RPM.


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## Bird of Prey (Aug 24, 2016)

Will that get me to 8,500 RPM. i know torque will drop , but with two Warp 11 I should be fine


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## piotrsko (Dec 9, 2007)

Expect your motor to grenade at 8500 rpm. My kostov has NEVER gone above 5000.


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## CanUseeme1 (Mar 21, 2018)

hi i have read your post cool. i have built my trike at 144v and warp-9 using zilla 1000 the reason i have chosen the zilla is the safety features. if you build a trike in the best case you only have three brakes at the best disc. If one of your contactors fail it may force the controller to go full throttle and you will never stop. vheical in motion will stay in motion unless action of an outside force. my friend NEWTONS law.


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