# 1999 Honda Accord Conversion(?)



## PatricioIN (Jun 13, 2008)

start in the wiki on this site.. go through kiwiev's whole site (both are easily found here)... spend a little time looking through this site and you will find just about any information you're seeking. 

99 v6 accords only came with auto tranny.. not the best choice for an EV (do a thread search on auto transmission to see the debate about that)

also, they are on the heavy side, expect truck conversion performance unless you can afford lithium ion batteries

range and performance are almost always mutually exclusive; most people try to find balance between the two

Search, read, search, read... Lots of info here.


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## Jin Marui (Oct 25, 2008)

Didn't notice the wiki. I was linked here by a friend just earlier today.
There seems to be alot of good information there. Thanks!

That will cover alot of the information on what i'll need to swap in.
What i'll need aside from that, will be information on the OEM parts.
I can see without even looking into the debate how a manual transmission would likely be easier to deal with. I'd been looking into a manual conversion before I was really considering going electric. Not sure if mixing around parts with other vehicles is a great idea before performing an EV conversion, but the transmission i'm looking at is from a 2003 Acura CL (6sp). Mechanically very similar, if I understand correctly.

As for battery choice, I would go for Li-ion/Po depending on availability.
As you mentioned, the car is somewhat large, and I've noticed several places where batteries could be mounted. The trunk is large, and I never use it. 
Since range is very important, I plan on cramming as many batteries as possible.

Anyway, i'll look over the possible motors and continue other research.
Any other input is welcome. I expect anything said here would likely be far more meaningful than what I see in most import/domestic-only forums.


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## TX_Dj (Jul 25, 2008)

A few things to keep in mind...

1) Honda/Acura motors turn in the opposite direction of anything else. EV motors are "timed" for operation opposite of your vehicle. This can be changed, but it's something you need to be aware of. I.E. if you drop the motor in and wire it up like all the diagrams say, you'll have 1 forward gear and 6 reverse gears with that CL transmission you mentioned. 

2) Your car is already pretty heavy to start with, and has a low GVWR. If you pile a bunch of batteries in there, you will lose the ability to safely carry passengers. I.E. if once completed you are 200 lbs under GVWR, you may only be able to carry yourself, thus this makes the rear seat dead weight which affects your performance and range.

3) Weight and balance. It's not just a matter of cramming lots of batteries into the vehicle, but also in maintaining or enhancing the weight distribution of the vehicle. A poorly distributed battery weight will cause handling issues and make the car unpredictable in emergency situations.

4) I saved this for last, though it's often the first thing I mention... just because you have it, doesn't mean you have to convert it. If you can sell the car and get another that makes a better choice for a donor, do it. The headache and expense you save yourself could be greater than you imagine.

Good luck!


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## Jin Marui (Oct 25, 2008)

TX_Dj said:


> A few things to keep in mind...
> 
> 1) Honda/Acura motors turn in the opposite direction of anything else. EV motors are "timed" for operation opposite of your vehicle. This can be changed, but it's something you need to be aware of. I.E. if you drop the motor in and wire it up like all the diagrams say, you'll have 1 forward gear and 6 reverse gears with that CL transmission you mentioned.
> 
> ...



Wow. I had expected alot of rehashed basic knowledge, but the only thing you mentioned that I had already known/considered was weight distribution. 
I expect that the conversion may even out the weight a bit, since (I assume) it's currently front-heavy being FWD and all. The electric motor, even if it's not lighter than the current engine, would be better balanced by a good portion of the batteries being mounted in the trunk in my current imagining of it. As for the Accord's GVWR, I didn't know that it was relatively low, though weight reduction was going to be a major performance-related priority. Suspension modification and lighter wheels are on the list, though my Accord already has factory alloy wheels.

Now, I had no idea that the engines in Honda vehicles spun backwards, but that may work out.
When looking at the J30A1, I couldn't help but notice that the flywheel is mounted very low, while most DC motors i've looked at seem to be built in a very straight, horizontal fashion. If the motor I end up choosing doesn't spin the same way as the clutch/torque converter, it may be possible to add a gear to reverse the direction applied to the drivetrain. I'm just as clueless as to how I would mount such a thing, as how I would install a DC motor to the OEM engine mounts, but that's neither here nor there.

I'm not starting the project until I have another car to get me to and from work, so I have plenty of time to research and practice on a smaller scale. In fact, i'm going to start by making a RC car from scratch. Then i'm onto making an electric motor-powered sports trike. 
That being said, what will most likely end up triggering the project, is the transmission going out. I hear the 6th-gen Accords are notorious for transmission problems. That'll be the cue for the 5/6-spd manual. After that, it'll only be a matter of time before gas prices start to piss me off again. (They just dropped below $3/gal, but they'll be back up, sooner than later...)

I have other projects in mind related to renewable energy that would work in conjunction with the monstrosity that I create.
The final goal (beyond getting the attention of other green-leaning entrepreneurs and engineers) is to establish a precedent of efficient and extremely low-running-cost transportation and power that will hopefully trickle up to all aspects of economy.

...This post went on a bit longer than I originally intended. 
I'll finish by addressing your last point. 
I'm sure that my Accord isn't the easiest car to work on. I've already had a few issues with it (for instance, the jack included with the car is the crappiest thing I think I've ever seen. Useless for tire changing, let alone oil/transmission fluid changes. The jack points are not the most obvious, either...)
But the car itself is aesthetically pleasing in my opinion (it's a coupe, if I hadn't mentioned that), and seems to instill the perfect impression of sportiness and efficiency mixed into one package. 
I'll admit that converting some domestic V8 muscle to electric would have more of the impact i'm looking for, but i'll take what I can get.


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## Jin Marui (Oct 25, 2008)

Looking at the ADC FB1-4001 motor, and I can't seem to figure out its theoretical power consumption rates.

The battery packs I was thinking of pairing it with are here:
http://www.lifebatt.com/?gclid=CPTVxMvz0ZYCFRsRagoda2Wu3A
The 144v ones. They seem to be compatible technically, but I can't find out how many I would need. I'm still looking through the wiki, and I might get it myself. I have the feeling i'm missing something, as far as the mechanics of electric motors.

I was thinking two of those battery packs would be ideal, weight-wise, but depending on the draw of the motor, i'm expecting it to need at least four to get the power and capacity i'm looking for.
Needless to say, each 144v, 10Ah battery pack is very expensive. ($3000 each)
By the time i'm ready to start, hopefully prices will have gone down.
Still cheaper than buying a Tesla, though.


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## dtbaker (Jan 5, 2008)

forget the accord, and go with something smaller and lighter. Civic if you want to stick with Honda.  Kia spectrum, ford focus, Mazda.... lots of smaller stuff still seats four.

couple your EV with PV.... if you live in an area with sun, it fits and prevents construction of more power plants. Its doable, although initial cash is hard. visit my site!


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## TX_Dj (Jul 25, 2008)

Jin Marui said:


> Needless to say, each 144v, 10Ah battery pack is very expensive. ($3000 each)


Exactly. 



> By the time i'm ready to start, hopefully prices will have gone down.
> Still cheaper than buying a Tesla, though.


Don't hold your breath. I've been waiting 10 years for them to be available, let alone for prices to come down. We may see a shift in that now that China is on board, but I'm not waiting.

And at $60,000 for 144v @ 200Ah with those modules, you could buy the new 4-door Tesla and have about 4x the range.


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## Jin Marui (Oct 25, 2008)

Good points.
If I had my pick of any car to work on, I would have gone with either a Pontiac Firebird as an engineering statement, or a Mazda RX-8 for the low weight, aesthetics and to keep up the 'funky engine' theme that Mazda has going.

If any of you are wondering why i'm still going on about using this car, there are a few reasons.
First of all, and please try not to take this one too seriously...it's my first car. I don't have another one, and i'm probably going to drive it into the ground. The conversion project, whenever it starts, is meant to be an end-of-service-life modification for it, after i've purchased its replacement. 
Considering the fact that I haven't come close to paying it off yet (I could do it, but i'm currently building credit), and it's not even over 100k miles, i'll have plenty of time to see new components crop up, and watch prices drop. Not to mention...research, research, research!
My ideal career path is going to be automotive and electronics engineering, so this feels like a natural goal down the road, so to speak.

All in all, I'm trying to learn what is needed to perform conversions, even on chassis that seem the most difficult to work with. If it can be done, it can be streamlined into a progressively easier and inexpensive process. If it can be streamlined into a conversion kit for an otherwise hard-to-perform conversion, so much the better to offer a modification option that isn't a ***** spoiler, euro light or turbo kit that'll only create more waste, pollution and dangerous driving conditions. Honda and Acura vehicles are fairly common, so it wouldn't be hard to pitch a conversion to college students and other young folk who already drive their Civics and Accords short distances to work and school. After getting into the market through that route, modifying other makes and models could only add to the knowledge already gained. I'm in this for the long-run, after all. 
We're not going to wean ourselves off of combustible fuels just by watching big car companies start to sell relatively expensive, brand-new electric cars. Being in the pockets of big oil companies at least to some extent, I really doubt those companies will offer conversion services for their own cars. If a car can be converted cheaply, people will be much more open to that option than paying a premium for a new car. Step up the level of competition, and automakers will have no choice but to stay on their toes. The consumer wins, for once.

I honestly believe that the EV concept will never go away, and we are still watching it grow in its infant stages. It can start a shift in transportation and energy storage technologies that can very well lead us to even greater things, but the only way that it will progress into more practical and affordable forms, is if more attention and demand can be drawn to it. When you think about it in these terms, something like my project is really just a drop in a bucket.
Just a baby step.


This may all seem a bit ambitious on my part, but if I accomplish nothing else, i'd like to get the gears turning in people's heads. Capitalism here in the States has become less about hard work, deep thought, competition, and providing good products for the most reasonable price, and more about popularity.
However, it's been consistently shown that a few people with the right technical abilities and a capacity for critical thought can offer a superior service and/or product. 
If it can be done, I'd work to be one of those people.

Anyway, it's past midnight after a long work week, and i've run out of ideals to rant about. Thanks for reading this far, if you haven't already fallen asleep reading this.


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

You are not alone, Jin Marui. I think its safe to say we all share the dream and some of us have even more crazy ideas than you. Don't loose sight of that dream.

About the lithium batteries.

Even chinese batteries are likely to break your budget. I hope to start a conversion this winter with batteries direct from mainland china, so we'll see how good they really are. So far my testing of a sample has shown good results, but I'm not done yet. I'm going all out with a fairly big pack and expect over 100 miles per charge, but even a smaller battery would be expensive compared to lead for comparable range. 

KiwiEV probably has the best example going right now on how to make a good, practical and still affordable EV that can still have good performance.


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## Jin Marui (Oct 25, 2008)

Well, after much research into the CG2 Accord, I've finally decided that it's going to have to be put on hold. You guys are right. Honda does far too much differently than other automakers for this car to be a practical one to start learning on.

Maybe i'll end up trying a belt-drive type system on it at some point. It will be hard to use the existing drivetrain, that much I know for sure.
In any case, it'll make a fine daily-driver until i'm ready. 

I'm looking into other vehicles currently, and the early-90s Toyota MR2 is looking pretty good, at a glance. I'll check the forums for any info on that car, and post a new thread, if there isn't already one.


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## Jin Marui (Oct 25, 2008)

Not sure if i'm performing old-thread-revival sacrilege, but it's been a while, and I've been doing a lot of research in the meantime. If the mods don't mind, I will continue to use this thread as a journal for the conversion progress of this particular Honda model. If anyone else is performing a conversion on 98-02 Accords, feel free to speculate and add your ideas and concerns.

After reading up on currently-available technologies and pricing, it looks like hub motors may be the closest thing to an end-all solution to conversion we'll have for a while. It would negate the design issues I would have had with the automatic transmission and other Honda quirks. There will undoubtedly be size and weight issues, but those can be addressed when the specs and motors themselves are actually made available to folks like us.

My current imagining of the conversion would be incremental, and I'd start by adding batteries to the currently existing energy storage solution (woo...fancy way of saying 'adding more batteries,' but I've got to practice my project proposal skills somewhere...) Something I've been considering, would be to begin by messing with one of these:
http://www.thinkgeek.com/gadgets/travelpower/962e/
It seems like something that would be extremely handy for anyone who owns a car to begin with, and has plenty of uses otherwise.

After that, or at the same time if possible, I would either add, or replace the existing alternator with a higher-output one, so as to continuously charge the batteries, or after installing the hub motors, run them at least partially off the alternator(s).

And here's where the potential payoff (and probably the most trouble) comes.
I have no illusions about how expensive hub motors will be, so I would start with two, installed in the rear wheel wells. I have a few ideas about articulation for 4-wheel steering, but until I expand my knowledge further, that will remain a pipe dream. Making sure it has an acceptable independant rear suspension will be good enough at that point. 
The addition, applied one way, would give the car an extra boost of power that could make it one of the more impressive hybrids out there currently.

My idea, though, was to limit the output to match the power of the ICE-driven front wheels, effectively making the car AWD. I would experiment with allowing the electric wheels to exceed the front wheels for performance trials, but I'm no expert driver (yet) and i'm not certain if adding more than another 200hp/200ft-lb tq in one shot would be a good idea. Sure as hell would be interesting, though.
Technnically, if I had enough batteries to run off of just the electric motors, I could put the ICE transmission in neutral and enjoy a little RWD Accord EV action while the alternator (inefficiently) charges my batteries. 

Anyway, the end goal would still be to go full-electric, even if I kept a gas generator somewhere in there as a backup. Whether or not the front wheels will be converted, I couldn't say. I would certainly explore an AWD full-EV conversion if there was interest in it.


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## PatricioIN (Jun 13, 2008)

I like that version of Accord; it's a very nice looking car. There would be ample room for batteries and presumably a decent GVWR. The only quirk with the Honda is that your motor would need to be changed to run the other direction. If I'm not mistaken, you can ask the vendor to send it to you that way. Just verify that it does spin the way you want! I know someone who went through a motor because he was sent the wrong one on his Honda. Also, those Accords were available with manual transmissions. In fact, I looked at one when I was searching for a donor. If it hadn't had a couple of rust issues, I probably would have bought it.

Now, given the weight of the vehicle; it's a little on the high side for a car conversion. But, it weighs no more than most of the S10s and Rangers that people convert and would be capable of carrying as many batteries, yet have a lower cd.. so theoretically, it would perform similar, though slightly better, than any small truck conversion. Given the fact that you'd use the same components.

Other than the direction of the motor, the rest of the conersion would be no different than any other. And my ADC motor came with directions on how to reverse the motor spin, so I don't think that's a big deal. And many Hondas have been converted already. You could change out the tranny for a manual and just forget about the clutch pedal by going clutchless. Or look at some of the auto tranny conversions. Personally, I think a manual is an easier conversion, but others have done it with autos.


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## Jin Marui (Oct 25, 2008)

I'm currently looking at hub (in-wheel) motors, so I would assume that the engine direction would be a non-issue. Depending on their weight and size, they might not even be practical, but I've heard that they already exist in reasonably lightweight and standard-size form factors.
I'm not sure how they would mount in my wheel wells, but the worst I can imagine is a little extra offset ricer look.
I've been told that the GVWR is relatively low for this car, though. I might have to make other chassis and suspension modifications to make it work.


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## John (Sep 11, 2007)

I'm not a big fan of the idea of hub motors due to the increase in unsprung weight they would certainly impose and its negative effects on the vehicle dynamics. At the moment they are not readily available or are extremely expensive. They are one to one drive so you can't even use a simple reduction box to amplify the torque so they need to be large to develop the required torque. This will create problems getting them to fit around existing suspension and brake components. Their main benefit as far as I can tell is removing all of the drive train components from the centre of the vehicle giving the vehicle designer far greater freedom in packaging the vehicle occupants and components. This is not a benefit that would be realised for a vehicle conversion.

What you are proposing with the added electrical RWD is I think something similar to what Nissan did with the Cube. Some of them were fitted with an electrical 4WD system with the rear wheels being electrically driven.


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