# Sticky  I want to build an EV! Where do I start?



## rbgrn (Jul 24, 2007)

For all new members and first timers, here is the basic guide to getting started.

If you haven't already you will need to Register to post in our forums

Start by posting a new topic in the EV Conversions Forum.
A good topic might be "Planning <make> <model> conversion"

What you will want to post is:

Your skill level with auto mechanics and fabrication
The range you are hoping to get (how many miles/charge)
What level of performance you are hoping to get
How much money you are willing to put into your project
What parts you've already considered, if any.
Members will help make recommendations and design assistance is generally good. They won't do all the work for you though so you must put in the time and come back with additional questions.

Make sure to have a look through the DIY EV Wiki, as much repeatable information is held there. If you make a discovery or want to help spread the knowledge you've obtained, please contribute. All registered users can add and edit existing wiki pages. 

Once you've got your plan down and have started the build, head over to Technical Discussion to get into details of wiring, mounts, fabrication and any problems you've encountered. More savvy users will be able to assist you with your technical needs there.

If you're looking to build a much faster car or are trying to squeeze more bang for the buck out of your newly converted EV, post about in Performance Discussion. 

If you're building or converting a motorcycle, bike or other two or three-wheeled vehicle, a good place to start would be in the Electric Bikes Forum.

As for parts and additional services, there are Classifieds, eBay auctions, and a Vendor Forum.

Good luck with your conversion!


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## houseoffubar (Nov 18, 2007)

*Re: I want to build an EV! Where do I start?*

Great idea Robert!


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## trabant601 (Jan 20, 2008)

*Re: I want to build an EV! Where do I start?*

I should have slowed down and read this when I first found the forum and read this first. I already did some of these thanks to supermoderator MattW and by accident. Now I am planning some steps for converting a Trabant. I knew of one and now, because MattW found a second, two. I have communicated with the Lynch Motor contractor for the first and am trying to communicate with the YOUTUBE "Electric Trabant Test" fellow. Or maybe its a gal. Check the Electric Trabant Thread for progress on the planning.


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## sotomikes (Mar 23, 2008)

*Re: I want to build an EV! Where do I start?*

What do you guys think about converting a 2002 mini cooper ? I have been doing a lot of reading and I am thinking of this first project. I am wondering what I would need to make this car go 65+ miles on a charge and 65+ mph. What do you guys think? any help would be great.


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## T0DD (May 19, 2008)

*Re: I want to build an EV! Where do I start?*

As far as the electric powered Mini goes, that is entirely doable. In fact, it has been done and you may have seen 3 of them and not realized it. In the Italian Job, the new one, most of the big chase scene in the sewers was done on an indoor set with electric conversion Minis. The rules prohibitted using petrol powered vehichles indoors, so 3 Minis were built using electric motors and deep cycle marine batteries. 

Please build yours, please.


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## ga2500ev (Apr 20, 2008)

*Re: I want to build an EV! Where do I start?*



T0DD said:


> As far as the electric powered Mini goes, that is entirely doable. In fact, it has been done and you may have seen 3 of them and not realized it. In the Italian Job, the new one, most of the big chase scene in the sewers was done on an indoor set with electric conversion Minis. The rules prohibitted using petrol powered vehichles indoors, so 3 Minis were built using electric motors and deep cycle marine batteries.
> 
> Please build yours, please.


What's the range on that conversion?

ga2500ev


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## sotomikes (Mar 23, 2008)

*Re: I want to build an EV! Where do I start?*

I've been looking for a 2002 donor car but not really any in a reasonable price range..


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## T0DD (May 19, 2008)

*Re: I want to build an EV! Where do I start?*

Dont remember the range exactly, but it was decent considering the batteries used. Its such a small car anyway. A Mini seems like an expensive place to start. Maybe something a bit cheaper would allow you to save enough from gas to make up for the investment better than a Mini. Would be cool though.


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## sotomikes (Mar 23, 2008)

*Re: I want to build an EV! Where do I start?*



T0DD said:


> Dont remember the range exactly, but it was decent considering the batteries used. Its such a small car anyway. A Mini seems like an expensive place to start. Maybe something a bit cheaper would allow you to save enough from gas to make up for the investment better than a Mini. Would be cool though.


Ya I'm going to keep watching the prices for the 2002 as they go lower. Once they get into the 5k range I think I will have my donor car. Thanks for the input guys


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## DrumminStewey (Jun 26, 2008)

*Re: I want to build an EV! Where do I start?*

i have a 2002 Dodge neon
very little automotive experience (brother who knows a thing or two willing to help)
around town car not much. highest speed around is 50 so that or better would be nice.
money is negotiable cheaper the better (without really sacrificing performance)

Thank you for any help you can give in advance


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## slumpp (Jun 29, 2008)

*Re: I want to build an EV! Where do I start?*



sotomikes said:


> What do you guys think about converting a 2002 mini cooper ? I have been doing a lot of reading and I am thinking of this first project. I am wondering what I would need to make this car go 65+ miles on a charge and 65+ mph. What do you guys think? any help would be great.[/quote
> I shop the cooper used car market all the time.
> The cheapest/worst mini that you will find is $10,000.00.
> I think that there are cheaper/ lighter platforms available.
> ...


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## slumpp (Jun 29, 2008)

*Re: I want to build an EV! Where do I start?*



slumpp said:


> sotomikes said:
> 
> 
> > What do you guys think about converting a 2002 mini cooper ? I have been doing a lot of reading and I am thinking of this first project. I am wondering what I would need to make this car go 65+ miles on a charge and 65+ mph. What do you guys think? any help would be great.[/quote
> ...


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## Skemcin (Jun 16, 2008)

*Re: I want to build an EV! Where do I start?*

One of the best buys you can find that make a great conversion is a Porsche 924. Its an aerodynamic vehicle that with an ICE got 30 mpg. Once you pull the ICE and related items, you'd be starting with a curb weight of just around 2,000 lbs. You can pull the torque tube and save more weight there if you mount your motor directly to the gear box (which is mounted in the rear of this car).

The only place you need to get creative is the battery placement. If you pull the rear seat and make a hinged lid that lays flat with the rear trunk area, you can put all your controls there - leaving the entire engine bay to configure your battery box(es).

You can get a 924 for less than $1,000 that might need minor cosmetic work. These cars are easy to work on and several have been converted already. If I had the budget in time, I'd be converting one of the ones I own.


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## Andrew Carson (Jul 7, 2008)

*Re: I want to build an EV! Where do I start?*

OK so I will start here and you can tell me if I am even barking up the right tree. I am a total N00B when it comes to electric cars, I think the closest I've come is the battery pack that came with my legos! But here is my "plan" I want to convert a 1980's alfa rameo spider veloce(read: cool sports car) it has a very good wind profile, a large engine compartment, and a big trunk that I plan to fill with batteries. the other plus is it is a sports car suspension so the weight shouldn't be an issue, it's already a heavy car coming in at almost a ton(i know heavy for a 2 door sports car) but it's also very stable and can handle a heavy load(i've pulled a 10k boat with it) I want to go AC motor so I can capture regenerative braking, and I want to link it to the 5-speed transmission that is currently installed(not sure if this is wise) I'm going to be building in the next 2-3 years as I am currently in grad school and have ZERO money. also has anyone looked into buying the "replacement" batteries for the prius or other hybrid car, it seems to me that this should be cheaper than going for a single custom battery. also I would like to look into adding solar to the hood and trunk to capture this lovely florida sun and put it to good use. Also has anyone looked into adding a small 2 or 4 stroke "lawn mower" type engine hooked to a generator to extend range, i mean a 1/4 gallon engine running for an hour to fast charge a battery pack sounds like fuel efficent to me. WHEEW thanks for any insight you have!


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## rev (Jul 14, 2008)

*Re: I want to build an EV! Where do I start?*


Location
Australia

Your skill level with auto mechanics and fabrication
Zero.

depsite the name ive never been a revhead.
they stink, theyre noisy , expensive - an dteh Ford/holden culture puts me right off
but i might as well get back in at ground level with EV's
and i need a new hobby that justifies itself in economics.

in effect a good EV might buy me a means of income

The range you are hoping to get (how many miles/charge)
60km +. Inner urban transport, possibly carrying payloads...

100km+ ideal

What level of performance you are hoping to get
A to Z, at city speeds, on flat to gently sloping ground 

How much money you are willing to put into your project
whatever the cost benefit ratio says. but were talking personal loans if need be. Itd be a commercial vehicle, depreciated against its earnings with allowable tax deductions.

im thinking if my running cost are very low with a plug in i can take the fatter margin as fuel goes up.. its $AU 1.70/L here now.

What parts you've already considered, if any.
a Small car would be ok, rip out the back seats and convert to a microvan. A light commercial van like tradies use would be best.
room for extra batteries to extend range
room for payloads

Ill try not to ask too much till ive read all i can read
but great to be here


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## BigAlum (Jun 12, 2008)

*Re: I want to build an EV! Where do I start?*

I've always thought starting out small was the way to go with most projects, so why not one of these? http://homepage.ntlworld.com/andy.carter/images/pictures/5.html 
This guy is now making kits in the UK for several small commuters; however, he's not doing anything with electric, just replicas of the original with single-cylinder ICE's. I did see one on UTube(?), claims(!) to get 85 miles per charge with a top speed of 55 mph - don't remember the voltage. I know there's not a lot of room for battery, but this is considered an "occasional" 2-seater, and it wouldn't take a lot of battery for reasonable range. BTW - The original factory literature listed the empty weight at 198 lb. with the original engine, full tank (1.6gal.), no driver. So, I figure you're looking at maybe 850lb. all-up with batteries, driver & all. What do y'all think?


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## BigAlum (Jun 12, 2008)

*Re: I want to build an EV! Where do I start?*

Here's the original factory electric version of the Peel Trident...Specs say 12V, 75 kilometer range (about 40 mi.). I really don't think it would do quite that well, but maybe....

http://web.mac.com/ipeezer/Peel_Cars_Scrapbook/Trident.html#14


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## mstalanon (Apr 23, 2008)

*Re: I want to build an EV! Where do I start?*



sotomikes said:


> Ya I'm going to keep watching the prices for the 2002 as they go lower. Once they get into the 5k range I think I will have my donor car. Thanks for the input guys


The electric Mini Cooper is already being built by Hybrid Technologies.

http://www.popularmechanics.com/blogs/automotive_news/4215495.html?series=16

http://www.hybridtechnologies.com/


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## Project_Hunter (Aug 21, 2008)

*Re: I want to build an EV! Where do I start?*

So I've just started seriously looking into the whole EV conversion project, something I've wanted to do for quite some time. My first project I would like to keep costs down while still producing a quality EV. And then after that, once I find out what I'm actually up against, possibly doing something a little nicer. I would like to see 60 mph but if not, I would be okay with a little less. 40-50 miles on a charge is my goal but once again, especially for my first vehicle, I would be fine with less. I haven't done near enough research on my own yet so I apologize if this post comes prematurely. My first question is about what type of vehicle to use. I have heard of people using S-10's so I would think that using a Ford Ranger would be okay as well. I found an '88 in town for $500. The price being what attracted me to it the most. It's a 5 speed so I'll need to do my homework on clutch vs. clutchless. Sorry for the long rant, my only question is would this vehicle be a good choice for the conversion, or is there something different about an S-10 that makes it better?


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## slumpp (Jun 29, 2008)

*Re: I want to build an EV! Where do I start?*

There are Ford Production EV Rangers out there on Ebay.
There is a local guy who converted one. The Batteries under the bed is a good idea (Out gases from Lead-Acid Batteries in to the world, not the cab).
I looked at a 86 Nissan Stanza, Yesterday. It's ICE has a bend valve.
Batteries would have to go in the back of a Mini-van style hatch. 
It was an Automatic.
The local guy is using two gears of his standard transmission and expensive Lead-Acid batteries.


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## mstalanon (Apr 23, 2008)

*Re: I want to build an EV! Where do I start?*

yep, the Ranger is very doobable. A local guy here has converted 'em.

Wayne at Evblue.com


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## Skemcin (Jun 16, 2008)

*Re: I want to build an EV! Where do I start?*



mstalanon said:


> yep, the Ranger is very doobable. A local guy here has converted 'em.
> 
> Wayne at Evblue.com


From what I've heard, the Chevy frame is easier to work with than the Ford. The S-10 frame is pretty straight making it easier to fabricate a battery box in more square/rectangular fashion where the Ranger isn't quite that uniform/symetric.
[food for thought]


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## mstalanon (Apr 23, 2008)

*Re: I want to build an EV! Where do I start?*

don't know about anything older than 2001.

But for models 2001 to present, here's a six page DIY section that lionev documented how they do theirs.

From the pictures here, the underside is pretty straight.

http://www.lionev.com/DIY_Ranger.html


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## Project_Hunter (Aug 21, 2008)

*Re: I want to build an EV! Where do I start?*

Well, hopefully I'll let you guys know how easy it is to convert an '88. I'll post pics from time to time and I'm sure I'll be swooping in to ask several questions. I've had a hard time getting ahold of the guy who is selling the truck but I think he works nights and I work days so maybe I'll be able to get in touch with him tomorrow and my EV conversion will begin.


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## raffles0412 (Sep 2, 2008)

*Re: I want to build an EV! Where do I start?*

My mechanical skill level is not quite nonexistent, but I'm starting building an EV here in Ireland using a 2+2 kit car I brought over from the UK. The weight of the car (incl. ICE) is 1800 lbs. It has a good sized trunk, c.450 litres. My thoughts were to go with 120VDC, but I'm struggling to decide which motor to go with. I read the Wiki which covers the ADC motors, but my main options seem to be to import either the Impulse 9" or the Warp. I am looking for a 60ml range and cruising speed of 60mph, although most of my journeys are of less than 30miles.

I would appreciate any views of which might be the best motor for me.
Thanks

p.s. currently removing the ICE which gets a short paragraph in most books, but is a bit of a struggle what with rusted bolts etc


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## Tommey Lee Reed (Sep 2, 2008)

*Re: I want to build an EV! Where do I start?*



rbgrn said:


> For all new members and first timers, here is the basic guide to getting started.
> 
> Start by posting a new topic in the EV Conversions Forum.
> A good topic might be "Planning <make> <model> conversion"
> ...


Start with a light weight car and enough room for a battery pack!


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## trabant601 (Jan 20, 2008)

*Re: I want to build an EV! Where do I start?*

These links and tips and those in the "Electric Trabant?" thread are great. I will certainly be in contact with appropriate people regarding advice and ideas.
I have made a small video of the donor Trabant in Indiana (perhaps the first electric Trabant in the USA), Rumpi might find others. 
I will post a link to show the donor video ASAP in the "Electric Trabant?" thread.
btw: I have decided to remove the clutch. All of the advice here has been great but... the mate with some knowhow and a welder said he will not help me if I leave it in. I am convinced. The Hungarian Youtube video didn't hurt either.
More soon in "Electric Trabant?" thread.
trabant601


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## wheelbarrow (Sep 22, 2008)

*Re: I want to build an EV! Where do I start?*

hi
what about one of th old minis, like in the first italian job?
has that been done? surely they would be good as they are very small
(im hoping anyway)


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## freddyflatfoot (Oct 6, 2008)

*Re: I want to build an EV! Where do I start?*

Ok, been lurking for a bit, and *maybe* thinking of diving into an EV conversion. 
Have a reasonable idea of what I want, but wanna do it cheap, well maybe not as cheap as ForkenSwift, but I hope you get the idea!
I'm not expecting much, but thinking of a small Japanese hatch. Daihatsu/Honda/Subaru or similar, with a minimum of two seats. (<1000kg, tare)
Reasonable acceleration, around 70-75 kph top speed, and a range of around 50km.
Looking to build an around town runabout/grocery getter/kids pickerupperer. Well, maybe 4 seats would be better!
Here is what I'm thinking so far, so I hope I'm on the right track!
Possibly 72 volts, 250-500A controller, 6.7" ADC motor (or similar).
Batteries, well, I haven't got much of a clue! Maybe something deep cycle around 85 AHr? Was thinking LiFePo4, but probably a wee bit expensive, I do love them on my e-bike though! I'm just a bit confused on all the differenet types/styles of lead batteries, and their suitability for an EV!
Just concerned if I go lead, then weight, voltage sag, and Peukerts will all be isssues limiting range and performance.
And at around $2000 AU or more for lead, what sort of lifespan can I expect?
Lets say I can keep 90% of my trips to <50% DOD. Do I think of lifespan in terms of cycles? year(s)? months?
And bear in mind that there will probably be two drivers, and she drives more than me!  And is probably not as savvy.
I dunno, maybe its just me, but is the Wiki just a little short on facts/examples that would really get noobs started on the right track?
Would really like to collect as much info, so I know pretty much what I need _before _I start!
Be nice to have some sort of chart that would give a pretty good idea of performance/range for different voltages/battery packs.
i.e. car x @ 72v will do x kph with xAHr of lead, with x km range.
car x @ 120v will do x kph etc, etc.
Thanks!


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## TX_Dj (Jul 25, 2008)

*Re: I want to build an EV! Where do I start?*

Freddy,

Seems you have a lot of questions. Questions are good!

Every car will be different, every driver is different, and ever locale presents a different set of terrain hurdles for the car. As such, it's really hard to say if it will be a good fit for you.

Weigh out your pros and cons, decide how much you REALLY need 4 seats vs. 2, etc... once you have a firm idea of what you want to accomplish with the conversion, it will be easier to say with some certainty. However, if you're in a flat area, have a light enough and aerodynamic enough car, and never need to get on the motorway... 72v should be more than sufficient to meet those goals.


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## freddyflatfoot (Oct 6, 2008)

*Re: I want to build an EV! Where do I start?*

Thanks for the reply dj.
I was thinking that 72v should be enough for a town car, without adding too much weight to a light car.
It should never need to go on the highway, but we do have some local feeder roads that are 70 kph limited, and would like to keep up with the traffic on those.
Terrain around here is mostly flat, but being at the edge of an ancient lava flow, we do have some killer hills!
I'm assuming that would be a good reason to keep the manual box?
I would still like some sort of expectation on the lifespan of lead batteries.
I'm thinking of maybe Optima yellowtops, or a similar battery?
Thanks,
Rob L


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## kugmo (Oct 31, 2008)

*Re: I want to build an EV! Where do I start?*

Thanks for this post, noobs like me can get really good information.


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## Voltswagen (Nov 13, 2008)

*Re: I want to build an EV! Where do I start?*

Raffles
Take a tip from an Old Wrench Guy. We all encounter rusted bolts when doing conversions. And the last thing you want to do is drill out a busted bolt and install a Heli-Coil. It takes hours.
Always try this first: Every good mechanic has a small Propane Torch in their garage. This is the torch you use to melt solder joints when doing plumbing. Light the torch and apply heat to the rusted bolt. A couple of minutes is all it takes. It's not necessary to get the bolt head red hot.
Just heat it up a little and then let it cool for five minutes. 
This sudden heat will expand the bolt and it's threads breaking what is called: The Rust Weld. Once cool the bolt can be removed with ordinary force. I have found this to work better than any liquid or spray bolt loosener on the market.
Good Luck - Roy


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## Tarkus (Jan 15, 2009)

*Re: I want to build an EV! Where do I start?*

Ok I need some input on some old school thinking:
My skill levels are high on most of the list but lacking in experience with larger propulsion motors. Have access to a pair of very large military turbine engine starter motors 24v haven't copied data plates yet, my problem is they are shunt wound??? not sure if I should rewind/rewire to a series type or if its worth the trouble with these particular motors. Or are shunt wound motors desirable? Anyone with suggestions please chime in.

Building out a 86 Toyota PU as old school Hybrid.

Past experience (I've built)
Battle Bots, Tarkus and Mechavore both 100K machines
several small wind generators, 2 ultralight aircraft (1 design & build)
several HHO generators (2 installed on vehicles)
Restored a 1959 Taylor Dunn Trident electric car. building a PWM speed control for better range.
In design stages of a electric three wheeler and 50cc micro diesel gen.

Thanks 
Dave


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## Tri14930 (Jan 23, 2009)

*Re: I want to build an EV! Where do I start?*

Hey Everyone-

I am new to this and have a couple questions I am havng trouble figuring out. I want to build an EV for my commute to school. I will probably end up building a VW Bug because it is cheap to find and parts are pretty abundant. My commute is about 15 miles each way but I am looking for a full charge of about 80 miles as I would need to charge my car at another location besides my house(I live in an apartment complex). I would probably end up averging 55mph on the way. Maybe 45-50mph but I am erring on the cautious side, if it can go 55mph that long than it should be fine at 45-50mph. It is pretty flat on the way so hills are not a problem. What are my major needs? I.e. What size motor should I get? How many batteries and which kinds would be best for my application? I am trying to do this on the cheap and I will be getting as many used and discounted parts as possible. Any specific parts or resources to find these parts would be helpful. Thanks in advance for all your help, 

Tim


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## Voltswagen (Nov 13, 2008)

*Re: I want to build an EV! Where do I start?*

Tim
Look at my Beetle Build here: www.evalbum.com/2187
It is unlikely, without installing Lithium Batteries ($14,000.00), that you will achieve an 80 mile range with Lead Acid batteries. 
An EV's range is determined by three major factors: Vehicle Weight, Speed and battery capacity. Simplifying it, the more batteries and the lower the speed, the greater the range.
My Beetle uses 15 - 8 volt batteries = 120 volts total. My range is about 35 miles at an average speed of 40 mph. Had I used 10 - 12 volt batteries (again 120 volts total) my range would be reduced assuming that my speed remained the same.
If on the other hand I had installed 20 - 6 volt batteries = 120 volts, my range would increase. I chose not to go with 20 due to limited space and weight limits of a Beetle. Using 15 batteries I have not exceeded the gross vehicle weight of my Beetle (about 2700 lbs.) 20 batteries would cause the vehicle to exceed the gross vehicle weight and make the car unsafe to drive. And even then upgrading to disc brakes would not relieve the added stress on the frame, suspension and steering components.
I would suggest that you spend a few days on this site reading from real life experiences by EV builders and then what I have said above will begin to make sense.
Good Luck - Roy


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## SirHenry (Jan 13, 2009)

*Re: I want to build an EV! Where do I start?*

Has anyone ever thought of converting a mini van? I have 4 kids, and sedans aren't big enough. 

What type of power requirements would be needed?


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## Voltswagen (Nov 13, 2008)

*Re: I want to build an EV! Where do I start?*

SirHenry
Here are two you could look at:
www.evalbum.com/377
www.evalbum.com/8

If I were to build a Minivan EV, to save on building costs, I would use a 144 volt system composed of 24 - 6 volt batteries. With the added space of a Minivan the extra batteries should not be a problem. I would however pay close attention to Gross Vehicle Weight.
Roy


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## ClintK (Apr 27, 2008)

*Re: I want to build an EV! Where do I start?*



SirHenry said:


> Has anyone ever thought of converting a mini van? I have 4 kids, and sedans aren't big enough.
> 
> What type of power requirements would be needed?


Most people don't convert mini vans because they are generally heavier and less aerodynamic (meaning less range/performance). Dodge made a production electric van in the 90's that got about 80 miles range, but it's better for the factory to design for electric than have us convert it later. They used a 180V nominal voltage and a 54kW electric motor.

There is actually one of those van's for sale on this site http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showthread.php/sale-production-1993-dodge-caravan-ev-26020.html (Sorry! )


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## SirHenry (Jan 13, 2009)

*Re: I want to build an EV! Where do I start?*

Could you use two small motors to drive the wheels, rather than one big connected to a transmission? What would that do to the range/power requirements?

I don't mean in wheel hub motors. Just connect the motors to the drive shafts that already exist.

Thanks


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## Mikeyb (Feb 1, 2009)

*I want to build an EV! Where do I start?*

Hi guys,

I have a 1992 Honda CRX Transtop which I would like to convert to an EV.
It's quite a light car with pretty good handling, has anybody done this before?
I need to travel 70 miles a day Monday to Friday. I don't have any mechanical experience but am willing to learn as I go.

Thanks.

Mike.


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## ClintK (Apr 27, 2008)

*Re: I want to build an EV! Where do I start?*



Mikeyb said:


> Hi guys,
> 
> I have a 1992 Honda CRX Transtop which I would like to convert to an EV.
> It's quite a light car with pretty good handling, has anybody done this before?
> ...


Welcome to the forum! Quite a few have converted the CRX actually. Check out evalbum.com I did a quick search and found http://www.google.com/custom?site=e...lbum.jpg;S:http://evalbum.com/;FORID:1;&hl=en

Take a look at a few of those to get an idea of what your car could do. Your range may be a challenge depending on the budget. Your car is a standard right?


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## Mikeyb (Feb 1, 2009)

*Re: I want to build an EV! Where do I start?*

Hi Clint, 

Thanks for the link and the welcome!

The Honda CRX delsol transtop is a slightly different body shape from those prior to 1992, not sure about the mechanical differences though.

evalbum.com has some good examples of CRX conversions so its a great starting point for my research, thanks for that!



Mike.


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## Voltswagen (Nov 13, 2008)

*Re: I want to build an EV! Where do I start?*

Hey Mike
With no mechanical experience, you have set yourself quite a lofty goal.
Achievable but lofty nonetheless. You will find this site invaluable as you go thru the step by step process.
70 miles per day on an Electric is daunting using Lead Acid Batteries (LA - avg. $1800 per Traction Pack).
Unless that 70 miles is roundtrip and you can charge the batteries(Traction Pack) for at least 8 hours while you are at work. Then it is achievable. On the other hand using Lithium Batteries (avg. $14,000 per Traction Pack) then you would probably not need to recharge to go the 70 miles. 
I'm not trying to rain on your party, just stating some general facts which most of the other car builders here would agree with.
I also noticed that you did not respond to an important question asked of you here: Does the car have a manual transmission? 
When shooting for the range that you stated, a manual transmission is essential and if you look on Evalbum.com you will see that nearly all car builders use a manual transmission. I'm not saying that an EV cannot operate using an automatic but the range would be severly limited due to the additional power requirements of pumping and cooling transmission fluid.
So, that being said you will need the following:
1. Money
2. A place to build the car.
3. Access to a full set of Mechanics Tools
4. A complete First Aid Kit and Unlimited will power
Good Luck - 
Roy www.evalbum.com/2187


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## crackerjack69 (Feb 24, 2009)

*Re: I want to build an EV! Where do I start?*

HELLO... wondering if anyone can tell me if this motor can power a small vehicle?(think geo)
advanced dc, part# 140-36-4001, 36v, class H, rating: AU2500.
it's currently in a little vehicle meant to push cars around in a shop. I'm hoping it's big enough cuz it has a control box and charger...please IM me if you can help Thanx


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## crackerjack69 (Feb 24, 2009)

*Re: I want to build an EV! Where do I start?*

so, 79 toy p/u as donor
needs to do 50 miles a day and travel occasionally 60mph (about 20% a day) can you tell me to start which motor would b appropriate for my needs, thus far i'm leaning towards the WarP9 or a forklift motor any help u can offer is greatly appreciated! I NEED FRIENDS!!!! anyone from p-town,oregon???


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## ccreddell (May 9, 2008)

*Re: I want to build an EV! Where do I start?*

OK guys, bear with me; If one were to have an unlimited power supply, how hard would it be to convert a fullsize dually, and have enough power to pull a fifth wheel? Are motors available with enough power? Would controllers and other components take the strain of 2-3000 mile jaunts?

thanks


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## dtbaker (Jan 5, 2008)

*Re: I want to build an EV! Where do I start?*



crackerjack69 said:


> so, 79 toy p/u as donor
> needs to do 50 miles a day and travel occasionally 60mph (about 20% a day) can you tell me to start which motor would b appropriate for my needs, thus far i'm leaning towards the WarP9 or a forklift motor any help u can offer is greatly appreciated! I NEED FRIENDS!!!! anyone from p-town,oregon???


Warp9 maybe or ADC 8" would get you up to 60mph as long as its not a steep up hill. Your bigger problem is 50 miles w/20% at 60mph. You MIGHT make that fully loaded with 6v lead, but will be pushing it. If you go Li, you are talking serious $$$.


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## electric_gray (Jun 12, 2009)

*Re: I want to build an EV! Where do I start?*

Hi guys I'm new to the electric car game, I have a peugeot 205 that I was thinking of converting to electric on a budget. I have quite a bit of experience with electronics and mechanics, I would like to use an ac motor and was wondering where I could find a suitable motor from second hand? can the motors be connected straight to the driving wheels or do they need a gearing system?


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## ChristianF (Jul 29, 2009)

*Re: I want to build an EV! Where do I start?*

Hi, guys! Interesting topic this one and I found out some useful piece of information here. But I managed through my contacts to have the possibility to buy one of the show cars used in the shows by Tesla. They have a couple of Tesla model S they want to sell. First, I couldn't believe it so I talked to them and we agreed that I pay them a visit. My secretary had to make some long arrangements but in the end I managed to get to the place. There, in a common but huge garage they had'em. Those beauties are incredible. I choosed the colour I liked the most (some grey) and established the payment details with them. They were eager to sell them and they had all the legal rights from the company to do that. I just can't wait that thez send my car. 
Oh...it will arrive on a common covered truck so there will be no peeping on the highway.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

*Re: I want to build an EV! Where do I start?*

I was just wondering about where one actually starts with building an EV?
What comes first so to speak.

Does one get a car and then looks at what can be crammed into it?
Does one get a motor and looks for a car to fit around it?
Does one decide on required performance and range and then determine the size of battery pack and then find a vehicle to carry it?
Does one have a car and a required range and then find ways to make the two compatible and just live with the compromises?

It has dawned on me that if, for example, I was to scratch build I really need to know about the biggest item, the battery pack, before I can design, lead acid, lithum, voltage, capacity.
If I want to convert I will need to know if the pack can fit in the car I like or if the car I can get will carry the pack size I need.
Maybe I also need to know which motor I can get from the junk yard forklift to make sure it will fit in the space where the ICE was.

So, where does one start?


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## ClintK (Apr 27, 2008)

*Re: I want to build an EV! Where do I start?*



Woodsmith said:


> I was just wondering about where one actually starts with building an EV?
> What comes first so to speak.
> 
> Does one get a car and then looks at what can be crammed into it?
> ...


Start with your requirements... top speed, range, number of seats? Then start looking for car / parts needed to meet those requirements. Once you price out the bigger pieces, compare your budget to the conservation cost. Your requirements may then be adjusted. 

For example, your work is 10 miles away. So reliable 20 mile round trip required. Part of the trip is on the highway, so you need a highway capable car. Top speed will increase your voltage to at least 96V. Generally it's only you and maybe one other, so a small 2 person car would work. With only 20 miles range you could go Lead or Lithium depending on budget. If your range requirement is over 40-50 miles, you'll have to go with Lithium.


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## Amberwolf (May 29, 2009)

*Re: I want to build an EV! Where do I start?*



Woodsmith said:


> 1 Does one get a car and then looks at what can be crammed into it?
> 2 Does one get a motor and looks for a car to fit around it?
> 3 Does one decide on required performance and range and then determine the size of battery pack and then find a vehicle to carry it?
> 4 Does one have a car and a required range and then find ways to make the two compatible and just live with the compromises?


I would say it depends on your purposes and your circumstances. 

Do you have a specific purpose for the vehicle? Then 3.

Are there specific requirements you will have for it because of that purpose? Then 3.

Or will it need to be a catch-all that must do as much as possible? Then 3 or perhaps any of the others, depending on which factor is most important.

Do you have parts just laying around already that you wish to use? Or parts you know you can get for next to nothing that you want to use? Or donor vehicle same? Then 4.

There are circumstances for each of those, entirely depending on your own situation and desires. 

For example, my EV is a bicycle. My circumstances of having absolutely no money to spend on it dictate that I use #4, using whatever junk I have around to deal with the problems presented. In this case, it also meant totally rebuilding the vehicle itself to bypass problems with using many of the parts I had, as well as making it a comfortable ride that could carry enough cargo to be useful. 
________
Granny Webcam


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

*Re: I want to build an EV! Where do I start?*

Cheers guys, looks like I am going to have to find the bits to fit a requirement and then find a vehicle that will swallow all the batteries.

I have roughed out a battery pack size, 20 12v 120ah cells, but of the vehicles I may have available, Nissan Micra, Daihatsu Charade, VW Polo, I worry about getting it to all fit without piling it up on the rear seat. However, I will need to get back to the vehicles to have a good measure.

Not sure it would work on a tiny single seater trike unless the wh/mile was really low. That seems to have the most impact.


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## dtbaker (Jan 5, 2008)

*Re: I want to build an EV! Where do I start?*



Woodsmith said:


> I was just wondering about where one actually starts with building an EV?
> What comes first so to speak.
> 
> Does one get a car and then looks at what can be crammed into it?
> ...


all valid choices... just pick one that matches your personal goal and budget best; and start!


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## scubadds (Aug 3, 2009)

*Re: I want to build an EV! Where do I start?*

Ok, time for the first post. Enough lurking
Location:Wilmington,NC

Skill Level: no fab skills, but have rebuilt a handfull or two of cars and have been parting out Land Rovers. So a decent/good mechanical base.
Have good local resources to have things fabed as needed.

Range: no rigid requirements, I work a few miles from home. So I would think 40-50 miles should do. Live at the beach, so its very flat here. I will start a driving log to see the distances I cover now.

Amount: The car I choose may dictate this somewhat; If I can get a vehicle that I can drive frequently. I would be willing to spend "enough to get a nice performing AC system". 

Parts: right now I am restoring a '67 mustang fastback, at the present time it is just a rolling shell in primer. It had extensive rust, but is now rust free. The listed curb weight is around 2800lbs. However, I only have a shell at the point, I have a fiberglass hood and would hope to keep the car on a diet to trim off some lbs. I have a 4.11 9" rear end with posi, that I hoped to use. However, my concern for that vehicle is ...does it fit my needs. I have two children and one more is likely. I would hate to get limited use.

My second choice is a 1967 Land Rover Series IIa NADA 109. Presently it is a rolling chassis with a body sitting on it now. The body is aluminum and the frame is about 400 lbs. I have most parts to make it ICE, but could sell off those and try to trim off some of the heavy parts. (like transfer case) This would have lots of room and would be a more practical candidate for our lifestyle
(triathlon training, so bikes go everywhere with us)

I am weighing out the pros/cons of AC/DC (hey that would be a great name for a band..) I am leaning towards AC. Something like an AC-55?
Perhaps start with AGM batteries and evolve to Lithium later if possible.

Anyway, any advice as to systems/vendors for systems appreciated.
I can wait a year or so, if there is a better controller/motor coming out soon.
Thanks
Bryan


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## DougPick (Aug 24, 2009)

*Re: I want to build an EV! Where do I start?*

Scubadds, 
I like the Mustang idea. I just found this forum. Trying to find out if I can convert my 67 camaro w/454 to EV. Always a hotrodder at heart.


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## dtbaker (Jan 5, 2008)

*Re: I want to build an EV! Where do I start?*



DougPick said:


> ...if I can convert my 67 camaro w/454 to EV.


like my Daddy always told me, you can do anything with enough time and money.... 

A Camaro will be a little heavy, and your range will suffer a little compared to a lighter car. BUT you'll have room for lots of batteries and nice big 9" motor; unless you intend to drag race and opt for a custom 8" tandem motor. You'll want at least 120v system, and probably 144v or even 156v for snappier accel.

Only other consideration is that conversions are way simpler with manual tranny.

D


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## Destructor (Aug 26, 2009)

*Re: I want to build an EV! Where do I start?*

Hello everybody,

I have a question for you. Could I use a used 28kw electromotor with 2800 RPM's to power a Citroen Saxo? I think it's got enough power, but i don't know if RPM's will do, because the motor isn't ment for EV.

The second question is where i could get scheme of controller, because i was thinking of doing it at home. Is it even possible to do it at home or is it too expensive?

Have a nice day and thank you for your answers.


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## bazou (Sep 11, 2009)

*Re: I want to build an EV! Where do I start?*

Hi everyone, here I am and here's my story! )

Basically, my trusted '98 toyota tercel has started burning a lot of oil recently. Now I have to consider if I junk it or convert it. I dont want to spend lots of money just to rebuild the engine and get another boring tercel 

A thing to consider is that I live in Canada, which makes for some very cold mornings (-20C, or -4F).

If possible, I'd like to keep this project as cheap as possible. Is 5 000$ conceivable?

Your skill level with auto mechanics and fabrication 

I'm actually not that skilled, but I want to learn and have an enthusiast *and* skilled friend to help with the tricky parts.

The range you are hoping to get (how many miles/charge) 
I dont know, the most I can get while staying on a budget. At the very least 50 km (35 miles)

What level of performance you are hoping to get 
Performance? I drive a tercel, I dont hope for anything..  

Actually, making it to highway speed (100 km/h, or 65 mph) would be good, but it would depend on the price difference.. What kind of price difference should I expect?

How much money you are willing to put into your project 
Least possible while getting something decent? What would 5000$ buy? 

What parts you've already considered, if any. 
I havent looked at any parts yet, all I know is my tercel is in great shape and has a lot of good parts in it, so I'd hate junking it.

----------------
Here are the questions I would like to add:
1) What parts are universal? Do I need to get any parts machined ?
2) If I decide to junk the tercel afterward, can most of the EV parts be reused on another car?
3) Beside insulating the batteries as seen in the wiki, what should I take into consideration for the cold winters?
4) How do I connect the new motor to the old transmission? I've only seen adapters for the '91-'94 tercel for sale.

Thanks!


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## dtbaker (Jan 5, 2008)

*Re: I want to build an EV! Where do I start?*



bazou said:


> ...my trusted '98 toyota tercel has started burning a lot of oil recently. Now I have to consider if I junk it or convert it. ...
> A thing to consider is that I live in Canada, which makes for some very cold mornings (-20C, or -4F).
> If possible, I'd like to keep this project as cheap as possible. Is 5 000$ conceivable?
> Here are the questions I would like to add:
> ...


Tercel being FWD won't be quite as efficient, but still not bad. You SHOULD be able to get CanEV.com to build you an adaptor plate if they haven't already done one. The adaptor plate and battery racks are the 'custom' pieces, everything else is off the shelf.

Given your reasonable speed and range, but taking into account cold, you don't want to skimp on batteries.... because you'll need heat, etc I would suggest a 120v set of good 8v golf cart batts, a 8" DC motor, and all the associated goodies. Count on typical cost of $8000 USD, unless you are a really good scrounger and find charger, motor and controller on ebay.


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## bazou (Sep 11, 2009)

*Re: I want to build an EV! Where do I start?*



dtbaker said:


> Tercel being FWD won't be quite as efficient, but still not bad. You SHOULD be able to get CanEV.com to build you an adaptor plate if they haven't already done one. The adaptor plate and battery racks are the 'custom' pieces, everything else is off the shelf.
> 
> Given your reasonable speed and range, but taking into account cold, you don't want to skimp on batteries.... because you'll need heat, etc I would suggest a 120v set of good 8v golf cart batts, a 8" DC motor, and all the associated goodies. Count on typical cost of $8000 USD, unless you are a really good scrounger and find charger, motor and controller on ebay.


Thanks Dan!
That helps putting everything into perspective.

First thing I realize here is that the EV conversion kit will be the most expensive part of the car, not the car itself. 

This means that converting my tercel might not be the best choice. I might as well spend a couple more grand and get another car more suitable for this.


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## ClintK (Apr 27, 2008)

*Re: I want to build an EV! Where do I start?*



bazou said:


> Thanks Dan!
> That helps putting everything into perspective.
> 
> First thing I realize here is that the EV conversion kit will be the most expensive part of the car, not the car itself.
> ...


I don't know how inefficient FWD is, but I wouldn't say it's a bad choice. Weight is a big factor and the '98 Tercel has a curb weight of only 2005 lbs! It's hard to find cars that light! It's standard right?

To answer your other questions, the coupler, adapter plate, and battery boxes will be custom for your car. All other EV components (charger, motor, controller, etc.) can easily be put into a new car.

I agree an 8" motor would be good for that car.


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## bazou (Sep 11, 2009)

*Re: I want to build an EV! Where do I start?*



ClintK said:


> I don't know how inefficient FWD is, but I wouldn't say it's a bad choice. Weight is a big factor and the '98 Tercel has a curb weight of only 2005 lbs! It's hard to find cars that light! It's standard right?
> 
> To answer your other questions, the coupler, adapter plate, and battery boxes will be custom for your car. All other EV components (charger, motor, controller, etc.) can easily be put into a new car.
> 
> I agree an 8" motor would be good for that car.


Thanks 
It's 5-speed standard. Engine and transmission are stock, so the car really need those replaced.

HOWEVER.

I just stumbled on an ad 15 minutes ago. The guy is selling a 2002 Hyundai Accent, and he's already removed the original ICE mechanic and installed the following:

AC/15Kw 48 volts
1 controller Curtis AC
1 Curtis controller programmer.
(i understand an adapter has already been installed too)

Basically he claims all is needed is some fine tuning and to add batteries. He's asking 4 250$Can (3900 USD)for it. 

This doesnt sound like a bad deal, considering the cost of the parts he's already installed.

How much would batteries for such a car set me back, again remembering I live in cold Canada?

Thanks!


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## dtbaker (Jan 5, 2008)

*Re: I want to build an EV! Where do I start?*



bazou said:


> The guy is selling a 2002 Hyundai Accent, and he's already removed the original ICE mechanic and installed the following:
> 
> AC/15Kw 48 volts
> 1 controller Curtis AC
> ...


sounds like the motor is way under-size, and WAY undervoltage for AC, which means the controllers will be useless as well. I don't think you want to go AC as the cost goes WAY up. Without seeing the specifics, this half-conversion sounds like something that would need to be gutted. The rolling shell might be worth.... $2000 USD.

Typical top quality 8v golf cart batteries are not cheap, but you can get bulk discounts. I got 12 for $1500 delivered to my door. You probably want 15 to get your system voltage up to 120v and more kWhr on board to handle the heaters.


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## bazou (Sep 11, 2009)

*Re: I want to build an EV! Where do I start?*



dtbaker said:


> sounds like the motor is way under-size, and WAY undervoltage for AC, which means the controllers will be useless as well. I don't think you want to go AC as the cost goes WAY up. Without seeing the specifics, this half-conversion sounds like something that would need to be gutted. The rolling shell might be worth.... $2000 USD.
> 
> Typical top quality 8v golf cart batteries are not cheap, but you can get bulk discounts. I got 12 for $1500 delivered to my door. You probably want 15 to get your system voltage up to 120v and more kWhr on board to handle the heaters.


Thanks Dan, I'll steer clear of it then  That's probably the real reason why he stoppedthe conversion half way.

I've done some (very quick) digging around but I couldnt find a thread recommending where to get parts.. Any suggestion besive CanEv?

Thanks
S.


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## dtbaker (Jan 5, 2008)

*Re: I want to build an EV! Where do I start?*



bazou said:


> I've done some (very quick) digging around but I couldnt find a thread recommending where to get parts.. Any suggestion besive CanEv?


I used KTA-ev.com and CanEV.com. I got everything but the adapter from KTA. I decided on a clutched design. There are a couple others that go with or without clutches. I like the clutch as it makes it easy for others to drive without training.

I collected some other links at
http://envirokarma.org/ev/links.shtml


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## ClintK (Apr 27, 2008)

*Re: I want to build an EV! Where do I start?*



bazou said:


> Thanks Dan, I'll steer clear of it then  That's probably the real reason why he stoppedthe conversion half way.
> 
> I've done some (very quick) digging around but I couldnt find a thread recommending where to get parts.. Any suggestion besive CanEv?
> 
> ...


I purchased quite a bit from http://www.cloudelectric.com/default.asp

Definitely shop around though! Prices vary substantially for the same components from site to site.


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## jondoh (Sep 8, 2008)

*Re: I want to build an EV! Where do I start?*

Hi Bazou,

I now have a '92 Tercel conversion.

It's about $7000. See here.

http://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=0AsquSyCa8qQXcF9WZ25IOHhfQlJ6XzZjdVdQT1lNVGc&hl=en

For that price I'm using lithium batteries.

I bought from all over the place.

and video here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OglFwPPKI3Y

It's 72v at 100 ah. Top speed is 53mph and range is around 25 miles. I'm putting about 25 miles a day on it and i'm loving it! I already have 600 miles.

I'm not sure why inefficiency of a front wheel drive should even be a concern. You'll want to convert the lightest vehicle you can live with and the Tercel is pretty light.

I think a decent $5000 conversion is possible with your tercel if you use LA batteries. The problem with LA is that performance really suffers in the cold.


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## bazou (Sep 11, 2009)

*Re: I want to build an EV! Where do I start?*



jondoh said:


> Hi Bazou,
> 
> I now have a '92 Tercel conversion.
> 
> ...



Wow thank you for the info and to everyone who posted before. I can't believe how helpful everyone is around here.

Did you buy the coupler / adapter pre-made or did you get them machined?

I guess I could cough up 7000$ .. Especially if I manage to sell that new starter I just installed  . I'd definitely need to change suspension, it's 100 000km old and the weight would finish killing it.

Thanks again for your spreadsheet. If you have the actual parts numbers handy I'd love seeing them. 

New Q's:
1) How many batteries (what size/model) did you fit in the front of your tercel? It looks crammed in there

2)How much should I expect to pay if I bring the tranny and the new motor to a machine shop and ask for a coupler? Do everyone here just make there own adapter plates? It probably shows, but these two 'custom' parts are those that scare me the most.. I'm probably wrong to be so upset by this though.



What do everyone think of me 15 batteries @ 8v each to drive the tercel?


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## jondoh (Sep 8, 2008)

*Re: I want to build an EV! Where do I start?*

1) I'm using thundersky 100 ah cells (24 pcs) from www.evcomponents.com. i got in on the group buy in this very forum. see here:
http://www.evcomponents.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=TS-LFP100AHA

2) all adaptors and couplers are machined. i found that prices vary greatly. I called these guys because they already made the hub, adaptor plate and spacer before. i think '92 through '95 has the same pattern. you'll have to call them for your '98. they're in Texas
http://www.peredelprecision.com/aboutus.html
Tel: 1-866-888-1101
or 512-846-2064

the great thing about my conversion is that everything fits under the hood. I didn't mess with the body at all. I drilled a few small holes and that's about it. the dynamics of the car are not that different. It's a little slower and front heavy.


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## bazou (Sep 11, 2009)

*Re: I want to build an EV! Where do I start?*

Digging into this. Thanks everyone!
I just found out someone is converting a 1996 tercel. I'll try and see if I can get the adapter/coupler from the same place.

http://jaburinda.com/ev/0_Disassemble_Tercel_96.htm


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## Riaan (Oct 26, 2009)

*Re: I want to build an EV! Where do I start?*

Hi All,

Just read the advice and decided to start again.

Ok, I have an old '78 VW Microbus crew cab vehicle (Thus a 4 seater with load bin in the back). I would love to convert this to electrical but must confess that I'm an total idiot if it comes to electrisity. Now I'm more than willing and happy to learn, and would appreciate some assistance from the specialists.

My vehicle currently has a 2L air coolde engin that produced (when new) a totasl of 58KW. Ok, now from some of the reading I have done I understand that the KW rating between fuel engins and electrical differs. Could anybody possibly explain to me how to calculate what my electrical motor must produce in order for it to be strong enough to power my vehicle. Note that I would like to connect the motor on to the current 4 speed manual gearbox in the bus.

What must I go for AC or DC, let me just add that I will be powering the vehicle with a onboard generator due to the distances I need to travel (OK so not completely EV) but I don't have any choice.

And lastly, I need to do this conversion as cheaply as humanly possible.

Your expertise and assistance will be greatly APPRECIATED.

Thanks
Riaan


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## Voltswagen (Nov 13, 2008)

*Re: I want to build an EV! Where do I start?*

Riaan
"...as cheap as humanly possible"........means you will be using a DC Motor & Controller..........AC Motors & Controllers are not cheap.
Also you will be building it "clutchless" vs the more expensive "clutched" design.
The voltage (number of batteries) of your system will depend on what speed & range you hope to achieve. Basically low voltage = lower top speed and lower range. Higher voltage = higher top speed and higher range.

Using that Microbus you have plenty of room for batteries. And again basically higher voltage = more batteries = higher cost.
Heres an example you could look at:
www.evalbum.com/2843
Also bear in mind that whatever voltage you choose for your battery pack....the "onboard generator" must match that voltage. You can't charge a 120v battery pack with a 12v generator.


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## Riaan (Oct 26, 2009)

*Re: I want to build an EV! Where do I start?*

Thank you so much for the information you shared with me, especially the link to fred's page. Absolutely brilliant.

Just one question, As I stated, due to distances I need to travel I will be powering the vehicle with a built in power generator. Now all generators are rated in KVA, how do I get from KVA to the point where I know if a generator is powerfull enough to power my motor?

Thanks again for the info


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## Voltswagen (Nov 13, 2008)

*Re: I want to build an EV! Where do I start?*

Riaan
I'm not a Hybrid person so probably not the best source of knowledge on that question. I suspect that your onboard genset will not directly power your electric motor but rather feed your battery pack as you drive. So your choice of generator may depend more on the specs of the battery pack than the motor itself.
Anyway here is a link for converting KVA -


http://www.powerstream.com/VA-Watts.htm


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## Riaan (Oct 26, 2009)

*Re: I want to build an EV! Where do I start?*

I hear you, again thanks for the additional link, much appreciated.

I would prefer to have pure battery power, but I commute 250 kilometers ( 156 miles) per day adn do not have any recharing point / facility during the day. I thus have no option but to go for hybrid. From your knowladge, would you think that there will be a problem supplying the motor directly from the genset ? as that is basically what I have in mind......

Thanks again


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## Voltswagen (Nov 13, 2008)

*Re: I want to build an EV! Where do I start?*

That technology may exist but I would think it may be more expensive.
It's much easier to supply the battery pack and let the pack supply the motor in much the same way as many production hybrids.


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## gor (Nov 25, 2009)

*Re: I want to build an EV! Where do I start?*



Voltswagen said:


> That technology may exist but I would think it may be more expensive.
> It's much easier to supply the battery pack and let the pack supply the motor in much the same way as many production hybrids.


but what the rate of charge/discharge? would it have enough time to recharge on the go?

the aspect - efficiency of drivetrain, supplying power from energy source to the wheels - ICE engine works nice and steady - under variouse and extreme load (average on overload /underload)

electric drivetrain (transmission, CVT) should have a lot off advantages compare to other mech. or hydrostatic drives

Question: who can give links to info on this type of hybrid - not production, but self-built, from scratch, info on builds, data, calculations?

thank you


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## mustangman (Dec 6, 2009)

*Re: I want to build an EV! Where do I start?*

I have an 89 Hatchback 5.0 mustang and I want to convert it to ev. I need to know what to buy and the basics of how the kit would mount up. I have fairly good automotive experiance, some fab experiance and people who are good at welding and fab. lacking in electrical exp. lol but a very quick to learn. Approximate cost for a car that can maintain 80mph for daily driver? Any help would be much appreciated!


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

*Re: I want to build an EV! Where do I start?*



mustangman said:


> I have an 89 Hatchback 5.0 mustang and I want to convert it to ev. I need to know what to buy and the basics of how the kit would mount up. I have fairly good automotive experiance, some fab experiance and people who are good at welding and fab. lacking in electrical exp. lol but a very quick to learn. Approximate cost for a car that can maintain 80mph for daily driver? Any help would be much appreciated!


How much does your Mustang weigh?
What is it's CDa?
How far do you need to drive it between charges?
How fast are you realistically driving it?
Do you want to keep aircon, power steering, big stereo, etc and other stuff that saps energy?
Do you have a budget you need to keep within?

All this will help towards some useful answers.

DC series wound motors will keep things simple.
AC motors will cost lots but will give you regen.
Lead Acid batteries are cheaper but weigh a lot
Lithium is very expensive but is a lot lighter and will give you better range.

Light and aerodynamic cars will give better range and use less power so if you can make your car really light and slippery then that will help.


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## mustangman (Dec 6, 2009)

*Re: I want to build an EV! Where do I start?*

weight: about 3000
cda??? not sure what that means.
like to get about 100 miles 75 min between charges
i can have a lead foot at times  but 30-80 typically
want to keep stereo with 2 12" subs, air con, all lights and, a few low power led's in interior (only on at night when i feel cool lol)
i plan on doing this over an extended period of time, so budget is not a huge deal. just need an approx. cost of materials. im not trying to make it a drag car, But! i would like to look impressive if a race should just so happen to come my way lol.
i plan on doing a weight reduction, including rear seat, no spare, etc...


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## Voltswagen (Nov 13, 2008)

*Re: I want to build an EV! Where do I start?*

here's an estimate -
To get 75-100 miles per charge on a 3000lb vehicle you will need a 144v system using Lithium Batteries (LiFePo) with a minimum AH rating of 160 or possibly more. 
So for a mere $9,000.00 you could purchase just the battery pack.

Check the "Garage" here on DIY to find vehicles of similar weight.


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## mustangman (Dec 6, 2009)

*Re: I want to build an EV! Where do I start?*

is there an equation i can use to figure out weight to power need ratio? thunder a good brand? good sites with walk throughs ( don't want to post every little question i have and sound dumb lol)?


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## Voltswagen (Nov 13, 2008)

*Re: I want to build an EV! Where do I start?*

You could start right here by clicking on the "NuWiki" tab at the top of the opening page.
There is a section on Formulaes and "How much power do I need".


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## mustangman (Dec 6, 2009)

*Re: I want to build an EV! Where do I start?*

Thank you! just need that kick in the right direction


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## dtbaker (Jan 5, 2008)

*Re: I want to build an EV! Where do I start?*



mustangman said:


> I have an 89 Hatchback 5.0 mustang and I want to convert it to ev. ... Approximate cost for a car that can maintain 80mph for daily driver?


Range required will determine a big chunk of your price. Also, to maintain highway speed you are going to have to pony up for good quality high-end stuff.... motor, controller, charger are not going to be used scrapyard stuff.

Ballpark a short-range (30-40 miles for your 'big' car) LiFePO4 system (144v, 100aH at around $12-15k for everything.... or closer to $20-22k if you go with bigger 200aH bateries and maybe even bump it up to a 156v system.

There are a number of places putting together pre-selected 'kits' of components.... like evcomponents.com and kta-ev.com among others.


----------



## Hollie Maea (Dec 9, 2009)

*Re: I want to build an EV! Where do I start?*

Hi, all.

I'm brand new to this site. I'm hoping to do a conversion as a senior project for my degree. I'm just starting the program and my senior year will be starting in Fall of 2011, so I'm in the extreme early stages of planning / feasibility study. I want to make it as nice as I can afford, but I also will need to be building a lot of the pieces myself in order to satisfy the project requirements (in theory the classes I'm taking over the next year and a half will equip me to be able to do so).

My favorite car is the Opel GT (the old kind) and I would love to convert one. Has anyone on here ever converted one? I'd love to hear everyone's thoughts on this. I'm going to be trying to learn everything there is to learn about the process from places like this, and hopefully I can have some good level of expertise by the time I'm ready to start.

Cheers,

Paul


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## dtbaker (Jan 5, 2008)

*Re: I want to build an EV! Where do I start?*



Hollie Maea said:


> My favorite car is the Opel GT (the old kind) and I would love to convert one.


GREAT style... but really old! you'll end up probably putting as much into mechanical re-furb as the electric part. Also very small, very light (which is good), but also not rated to carry extra weight.... which means you'd HAVE to go with LiFePO4 batteries for space and weight considerations; which drives the initial price up considerably, but it better in the long run.


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## Hollie Maea (Dec 9, 2009)

*Re: I want to build an EV! Where do I start?*

Thanks for the reply. I know that since it's old there will be a lot of work. I don't mind putting work into it. My classes will be divided between electrical engineering and mechanical engineering, so I'll be needing to work on a broad range of things to satisfy the requirements. The trickiest part will be being able to afford it. I don't mind putting a ton of work into it though.


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## dtbaker (Jan 5, 2008)

*Re: I want to build an EV! Where do I start?*



Hollie Maea said:


> The trickiest part will be being able to afford it.


write up an 'educational grant' and apply for some fed help! Its gonna run ya $12-15k in parts if you go Li....

d


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## Hollie Maea (Dec 9, 2009)

*Re: I want to build an EV! Where do I start?*

That's a great idea. I've already been thinking about the fact that some kind of subsidization would be great. I'm making this stuff my career, so I just have to convince the government that it would be a good investment . I was also thinking about corporations. The GT is a head turner, and perhaps some companies would be willing to sell me some parts at cost in exchange for slapping their name on it somewhere. My goal over the next year and a half, before I start the year long project, is to make an extremely detailed plan so that such entities would be more likely to take me seriously. Then again, maybe it's all a pipe dream


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## RollingTripod (Jan 2, 2010)

*Re: I want to build an EV! Where do I start?*

can your guys put up a post that explains what some of the shortened terms translate to... i.e. DoD?! I have absolutely no idea what it is, but it seems like its quite important for calculating range figures...


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

*Re: I want to build an EV! Where do I start?*



RollingTripod said:


> can your guys put up a post that explains what some of the shortened terms translate to... i.e. DoD?! I have absolutely no idea what it is, but it seems like its quite important for calculating range figures...


DoD is Depth of Discharge.

Basically it is how much of the battery capacity you will realistically use without damaging or shortening the life.

For example, lead acid batteries are generally looked at as having a DoD of 50%. That means that you would only use 50% of the energy that the battery could theoretically hold. So you would determine how much energy you need for your vehicle to do a certain range and speed and then double it to get your pack size.

With LiFePO4 you would generally look at around 80% DoD so you could use 80% of the energy in the pack resulting in a smaller capacity pack to do the same work as the larger lead acid pack.

This does not mean that you couldn't use 100% of the energy in the pack but to do so could cause irriversable damage or shorten the life of the batteries.


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## RollingTripod (Jan 2, 2010)

*Re: I want to build an EV! Where do I start?*



Woodsmith said:


> DoD is Depth of Discharge.
> 
> Basically it is how much of the battery capacity you will realistically use without damaging or shortening the life.
> 
> ...


Thanks Woodsmith.

That had been getting at me for a while! I am looking into choosing batteries for a project trike, weight is really important. I found some info about LiFePO4 cells that went along the lines of:

AH Max V Single Cell Mass (kg) 
Thundersky 160 4.25 5.6 
Sky Energy 120 3.6 4.2

I did some calcs and this meant that the cells with _lower_ Ah rating actually deliver _more_ volts per kilogram. Can this be true or am i working with incorrect figures?

Also, while im at it, do i use the max voltage rating for my endurance calcs? Or is this where DoD comes in? ie 80% of max volts is my operating voltages?

I think i might have just answered my own question...


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## Squarejim (Jan 11, 2010)

*Re: I want to build an EV! Where do I start?*

hey guys !
So Here is my first post here and here is a list of what I am looking to do.


I have a 1971 vw bus that i want to convert.
I can fab up anything and wiring is a snap ...
I would like to get some serious mileage out of this and money isnt to much of an issue..
motor : Net gain warp 9
controller: Netgain warp core controller
clutchless mounting..

Here is the real question
Batteries?
*AGM?*
*Lithium Iron Phosphate?*
*12volt? 6volt?*

I would like to go up to 120 volts or maybe even 144.
what would be the very best choice?

I realize that the bus is a large heavy "box"...so any hepl is awesome.
thanks-


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## Voltswagen (Nov 13, 2008)

*Re: I want to build an EV! Where do I start?*

If you have the money LiFeYPO would be the way to go. 
(45) Thunder Sky 160ah would get you 144v and cost about $8700.00 plus domestic shipping.
Check the prices on www.EVComponents.com

Hint: buy bigger than you think you need.


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## dtbaker (Jan 5, 2008)

*Re: I want to build an EV! Where do I start?*

if you want max range, go for 200ah LiFePO4, if you wanna go real far, then you could consider something wild like two banks of 160ah in parallel. probably 144 or 156 volts, although when you get over 120v 'all the little things' get more expensive. Hmmm, perhaps two banks of 120v (38x 200ah cells) might be a good compromise, but maybe too expensive? You'll probably need at least a Warp 9 and a controller able to dump 500+amps..... so a curtis 1231, or zilla.


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## Squarejim (Jan 11, 2010)

*Re: I want to build an EV! Where do I start?*

hey guys thanks for the info-

so I am looking at using 160aha LiFePO4 batterys...
the net gain controller ive picked is good for 750 amps.
i going for 144 volts.

do you think the extra cost to go to 180 aha is worth it? [another 2k?]

and what would the best way to determine estimated mileage be?

thanks


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## John (Sep 11, 2007)

*Re: I want to build an EV! Where do I start?*



RollingTripod said:


> Thanks Woodsmith.
> 
> 
> AH Max V Single Cell Mass (kg)
> ...


The LiFePO4 cells charge and discharge graphs follow an s curve with the slope of the graph becoming quite steep at either end. The flattish part of the graph in the middle is the most meaningful part of the curve and the average here is your nominal voltage which should be about 3.2 volts for both Thundersky and Sky Energy. Given the similar nominal voltage the energy density of both types of cells is remarkably similar. Multiply Ah by nominal voltage and divide by weight for energy density in Wh/kg. Since the voltage during discharge isn't linear the voltage isn't directly proportional to state of charge. The DoD is a self imposed limit to extend the life of your batteries. In general the shallower a battery is routinely discharged the more charge-discharge cycles it can endure before it reaches the end of its life which is typically defined as when its capacity deteriorates to 80% of its rated capacity (not ot be confused with DoD). The optimum DoD limit varies for different battery chemistries. 80% DoD will give you about 500 cycles in flooded lead acid but about 2000 cycles in LiFePO4 and 70% will push this to 3000. I would definitely shoot for less than 70% DoD as you gain 50% more cycles for about 12.5% loss of available capacity over 80% DoD. If you have a severely weight challenged application you could calculate on a higher DoD and accept the shorter battery life as the trade off. The maximum and minimum voltages are limits defined by the manufacturer beyond which you risk irreversibly damaging the cells. Beyond this I don't think they're that useful.


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## johns78c (Apr 14, 2010)

*Re: I want to build an EV! Where do I start?*

G'day people!

I wish to convert my 1999 Mazda 121 (DW Demio).

I need a range of at least 200 km (120 mi)

I will be cruising at 110km/h (55mph) most of the time with some stop/start at either end of the journey.

I am interested in going ac using a Siemens 6SV long with one of the 67kw liquid cooled motors to match.

My main questions regards batteries - I am considering a 300V 26kw/h pack of the A123 prismatic cells - will this be enough? Can someone give me an idea of cost for my project?

Any feedback would be very much appreciated.

Cheers,

Chris.


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## dtbaker (Jan 5, 2008)

*Re: I want to build an EV! Where do I start?*



johns78c said:


> I need a range of at least 200 km (120 mi)
> 
> I will be cruising at 110km/h (55mph) most of the time with some stop/start at either end of the journey.
> ...considering a 300V 26kw/h pack of the A123 prismatic cells - will this be enough?


I don't think this is going to be enough.... at 55mph you would be VERY lucky to consume less than .3 kWhr/mile; so a 26kWhr pack is probably going to get you 75 miles or so.


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## johns78c (Apr 14, 2010)

*Re: I want to build an EV! Where do I start?*



dtbaker said:


> I don't think this is going to be enough.... at 55mph you would be VERY lucky to consume less than .3 kWhr/mile; so a 26kWhr pack is probably going to get you 75 miles or so.



Cool - thanks for your quick reply - can anyone help with what sort and number of batteries to go with for my needed range?


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## dtbaker (Jan 5, 2008)

*Re: I want to build an EV! Where do I start?*



johns78c said:


> Cool - thanks for your quick reply - can anyone help with what sort and number of batteries to go with for my needed range?


well.... just as a ballpark you'd need 3x 120miles = 36kWhr
so, depending on what voltage (high v AC or lower v DC) you pick the capacity you need. An AC build is WAY more expensive, but has some advantages for highway driving.

you probably dont want to build with a123 batteries... they are way expensive and hard to build into a dependable pack unless you have serious production facilities. large format cells will work

A DC build with a 9" motor could take a 156v traction pack, and if you got 200aH large format cells that would be 31.2kWhr... hhhmmmm, close but maybe too close. You'd have to put two packs of 160ah cells in parallel to get 320ah effective per double-cell. With this you could run a 120v*320ah to get 38kWhr total, and probably be ok, but probably want to go with a little extra and build a 144v*320ah pack thru a 9" motor to have enough zip at highway speed.

cost.... at 144v (45 cells * 2 * 160 * $1.1)= about $16k, plus S&H


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## johns78c (Apr 14, 2010)

*Re: I want to build an EV! Where do I start?*



dtbaker said:


> well.... just as a ballpark you'd need 3x 120miles = 36kWhr
> so, depending on what voltage (high v AC or lower v DC) you pick the capacity you need. An AC build is WAY more expensive, but has some advantages for highway driving.
> 
> you probably dont want to build with a123 batteries... they are way expensive and hard to build into a dependable pack unless you have serious production facilities. large format cells will work
> ...


thanks dan

i did a bit of research of my own, and was discouraged by the fact that my batteries would weigh in excess of 500kg and cost close to $20,000! i was keen to go with an ac system benefiting from greater efficiency and proper regen braking. i am now considering other methods of reducing my cost of transport.


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## dtbaker (Jan 5, 2008)

*Re: I want to build an EV! Where do I start?*



johns78c said:


> thanks dan
> 
> i did a bit of research of my own, and was discouraged by the fact that my batteries would weigh in excess of 500kg and cost close to $20,000! i was keen to go with an ac system benefiting from greater efficiency and proper regen braking. i am now considering other methods of reducing my cost of transport.


you've got a long haul for batteries.... perhaps better for bio-diesel? 

but back to EV... I think you could get your range with large format Thundersky cells, and the cost would be pretty close to what I estimated if you buy from evcomponents.com or evolveelectrics.com. The only reason to go AC is if you think your situation will have significant opportunity for regen.... extended highway without stop and start or big hills I dont think is worth AC over DC for what you might recover in regen.


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## johns78c (Apr 14, 2010)

*Re: I want to build an EV! Where do I start?*



dtbaker said:


> you've got a long haul for batteries.... perhaps better for bio-diesel?
> 
> but back to EV... I think you could get your range with large format Thundersky cells, and the cost would be pretty close to what I estimated if you buy from evcomponents.com or evolveelectrics.com. The only reason to go AC is if you think your situation will have significant opportunity for regen.... extended highway without stop and start or big hills I dont think is worth AC over DC for what you might recover in regen.


 
yeah good point there - maybe a dc system would be more affordable. i am actually considering a turbo lpg setup. sure beats dragging around half a ton of batteries. here in australia lpg is about half the price of 'gasoline'.


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## dtbaker (Jan 5, 2008)

*Re: I want to build an EV! Where do I start?*



johns78c said:


> yeah good point there - maybe a dc system would be more affordable. i am actually considering a turbo lpg setup. sure beats dragging around half a ton of batteries. here in australia lpg is about half the price of 'gasoline'.



LiFePO4 is obviously way lighter and easier on suspension than lead... but this much will take a lot of space! Is there no way you could charge at work so your range goal would be maybe 80 miles?


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## johns78c (Apr 14, 2010)

*Re: I want to build an EV! Where do I start?*



dtbaker said:


> LiFePO4 is obviously way lighter and easier on suspension than lead... but this much will take a lot of space! Is there no way you could charge at work so your range goal would be maybe 80 miles?


 
yeah i had never really considered a lead setup - in 2010 i think we can do better than using 1900's technology there. i use a privately owned secure car park at work (at their expense!) so i'm not sure whether i could charge there. (would only need about 45 - 50 miles range). will have to check it out. otherwise i'll be waiting on better battery technology!


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## loach1 (Apr 29, 2010)

*Re: I want to build an EV! Where do I start?*

I have a nice and straight '84 Pontiac Fiero with a tired 4 cyl engine. I think it would make a great EV with a bit of work. Here's my general plan:

50 mile range, capable of 50~55mph

Use existing manual transaxle, retain clutch.

The Fiero looks like it can hold 12 decent sized batteries without too much bother, perhaps more but the weight would get a bit much.

No AC/heat. Power brakes from an old electric ABS pump/accumulator setup found in some Chryslers and European cars (I had it in an Alfa Milano).

My big question is:

I work in a plant where we make transmissions, and we will be disposing of a lot of equipment very soon. These machines have large AC spindle motors and VFD's to control them. How do I determine if any are suitable for EV use?

I need to do this on the cheap. I am a mechanical engineer and comfortable around electricity, but not the best at figuring out what is needed. If I could scrounge a motor and VFD, then get a deal on some batteries I think I will be able to pull this off. If not, I guess the 4 banger gets an overhaul!


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## bugpack (May 26, 2010)

*Re: I want to build an EV! Where do I start?*

I've been doing a little research on this subject. I think my 72 vw bu would be a very nice commuter car. lots of room for the batteries and still have room for me and my kids. 
I live in eastern washington, so heat would be nice unless you don't drive your ev's in the winter (i'd like to know what you guys do)
I'm pretty good mechanically it's the electrical stuff that fries me. fab skills...ok

here's a thought.... hot vw's feb09 issue had an article about a bug that had a/c with the compressor powered off the motor. what if you ran an alternator instead???? would it help increase range or fry the batteries??


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## EnviroEd (Jun 13, 2010)

*Re: I want to build an EV! Where do I start?*

I've been thinking about doing an EV conversion to my '96 VW GTI. I would like 50-65 miles on the charge, and a possibility of 60 mph. Eventually, I'd like to use solar panels to run all electronics. A/C would be a plus, this florida heat is unbearable at times. I am a german car mechanic of four years, with minor fab skills. Not very familiar with electric motors but willing and able to learn. Perferably, I would like this to be a budget friendly build, but i know thats not always the case. Thanks for any info and comments.


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## dtbaker (Jan 5, 2008)

*Re: I want to build an EV! Where do I start?*



EnviroEd said:


> I've been thinking about doing an EV conversion to my '96 VW GTI. I would like 50-65 miles on the charge, and a possibility of 60 mph.


anything over 40 mile range you are talking LiFePO4 cells.... perfectly doable, just a higher ante to get it rolling. less expensive in long run.



EnviroEd said:


> Eventually, I'd like to use solar panels to run all electronics.


put the PV on your house.
better tax deal, and not enough room on a car.



EnviroEd said:


> A/C would be a plus, this florida heat is unbearable at times.


doable, just requires a little larger battery pack and about $600-750 more stuff.

sounds like about $12k in parts.  W.a.g.


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## dtbaker (Jan 5, 2008)

*Re: I want to build an EV! Where do I start?*



bugpack said:


> my 72 vw bu would be a very nice commuter car. lots of room for the batteries and still have room for me and my kids.


sounds great... manual tranny?



bugpack said:


> ... heat would be nice


no problem... ceramic heater core in ductwork, or even circulating antifreeze thru hottub heater core.... all possible, just takes a little extra juice. dont forget to heat the battery boxes, as they don't like cold either.



bugpack said:


> I'm pretty good mechanically it's the electrical stuff that fries me. fab skills...ok


90% mechanical = 10% following electric schematic. no problem.



bugpack said:


> a/c with the compressor powered off the motor. what if you ran an alternator instead???? would it help increase range or fry the batteries??


there are options for running a/c...... alternator is not one of them.  trying for regen on a dc motor is hard and complicated, regen on an ac motor is expensive. better just to buy a little more battery and run simple dc system.


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## EnviroEd (Jun 13, 2010)

*Re: I want to build an EV! Where do I start?*



gottdi said:


> VW is a good choice to convert. Old or new. Welcome.


Thanks for the welcome, good to hear that I can convert my VW. I'm wanting to start with my GTI but eventually want to build an EV VW Transporter, similiar to yours. I'm going to check the website listed on your thread, will this give me a better idea on the conversion?


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## EnviroEd (Jun 13, 2010)

*Re: I want to build an EV! Where do I start?*



gottdi said:


> i did not do the Transporter. It was an idea but the one I purchased I sold. If I can ever afford an old Split Window Microbus I will convert it. But to buy a nice one that is not a rust bucket will cost at least $25,000 before converting it. OUCH. Not quite in my budget range yet.


WOW thats a hefty starting point! I like the website you have posted. It was very informative and I got my wife hooked with the vid of the white and yellow bus. She absolutely loved it. I will be doing some more research and will be posting up soon. thanks and are there any other EV VW sites?


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## clintster7 (Jun 29, 2010)

*Re: I want to build an EV! Where do I start?*

hi I jumped the gun and posted in tech and should of started off here .. 

ok I will start with what requirements I am going for

I would like a 100 hp equivalent motor (cheap ) I am not concerned about the max rpm as I can put any size pulleys to change the final ratio ..

1. what is the smallest(lightest) / cheapest motor I could get 100 hp equivalent 
NOTE : it will only be ran at the drag strip so small spurts of acceleration are required .

2. how many volts will be needed for the 100 hp ?

3. I am not interested in a variable CONTROLLER .. I would like a bit of input on how I could have an " all or nothing setup " all or nothing as far as the motor controller goes . all the voltage available from the start . 
NOTE: I will stage the drag vehicle with an alternative means .. ( got that part figured out .)

I dont know if this is helpful but ..
hp to KW
hp x 0.746 = KW

so 100 hp would be 74.6 KW


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## dtbaker (Jan 5, 2008)

*Re: I want to build an EV! Where do I start?*



clintster7 said:


> I would like a 100 hp equivalent motor


a 100hp (peak) motor is relatively small... and not that powerful. kinda right around what your typical 1.3 litre ICE engine puts out. You could probably get this out of a warp9 with 144volts at 700 or so amps as long as you don't run it too long and start melting things.



clintster7 said:


> 3. I am not interested in a variable CONTROLLER .. I would like a bit of input on how I could have an " all or nothing setup "


you'll need some kind of throttle control, or will do nothing but burn rubber at the start. you MIGHT be able to rig a two stage relay to 'shift' between partial voltage and full voltage like a tiptronic shifter, but adding voltage under full load is bound to cause some interesting issues....


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## clintster7 (Jun 29, 2010)

*Re: I want to build an EV! Where do I start?*



dtbaker said:


> you'll need some kind of throttle control, or will do nothing but burn rubber at the start. you MIGHT be able to rig a two stage relay to 'shift' between partial voltage and full voltage like a tiptronic shifter, but adding voltage under full load is bound to cause some interesting issues....


Well I guess ill let u in on what I am trying to cook up . I am wanting to do a drag only hybrid .. It will be an ICE .. but I am wanting to fabricate a pulley that ties into the front of the motor where the crank pulley is .. I am wanting to use the 100 hp electric as a nitrous like device .. so once I get rolling with the ICE and finally go full throttle the electric motor will add 100 hp to the crank . Im not sure if this has been done in the way I want to do it but with a little trial and hopefully not to much error I can add 100 hp to the whole power band .. sounds kinda crazy huh.. 

I like the two stage Idea also .. Im not 100% sure that I follow what u are saying .. but I assume a tiptronic shifter would just add batteries to the circuit ? that sounds like it may bring up issues with batteries being at different charges .. I just want simple as possible .


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## dtbaker (Jan 5, 2008)

*Re: I want to build an EV! Where do I start?*



clintster7 said:


> I am wanting to do a drag only hybrid .. It will be an ICE .. but I am wanting to fabricate a pulley that ties into the front of the motor where the crank pulley is .. I am wanting to use the 100 hp electric as a nitrous like device ..


hhmmmmmm, well, the easiest way I can think of is to pick an awd car.... separate the drivetrain so that the ICE drives the rear wheels, and hook the electric to the front.


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## Voltswagen (Nov 13, 2008)

*Re: I want to build an EV! Where do I start?*

And you want to do all this with a pully?


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## clintster7 (Jun 29, 2010)

*Re: I want to build an EV! Where do I start?*



Voltswagen said:


> And you want to do all this with a pully?


yes . a cog type belt like on a blown v8 style with the electric motor sticking out the top of the hood ( in the cool air ) as long as I keep the power level in check I shouldn't damage the crank or the bolts that hold the pulley on . my hope is a 12 second drag car before the "electric boost " is added .. any way its still on the drawing board as of now lots of specs to calculate .


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## clintster7 (Jun 29, 2010)

*Re: I want to build an EV! Where do I start?*



dtbaker said:


> hhmmmmmm, well, the easiest way I can think of is to pick an awd car.... separate the drivetrain so that the ICE drives the rear wheels, and hook the electric to the front.


yea have had thoughts of something like also that but starting with a fwd car and adding an electric motor to a custom independent rear suspension .. sounds awesome to me . I have so many ideas its hard to focus on one so I just have to choose one to conquer and then start another one ..


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## taylerhughes (Aug 21, 2010)

*Re: I want to build an EV! Where do I start?*

Hey, 

I am going to be building an electric car to travel in. I plan to spend and initial £10,000 and £30,000 over the coming years. As well as practicality I will be aiming for fast and attractive. Once it is finished I am going to be driving from country to country so it needs to be reliable.

Looking for a range of 200mi+

Bhp of 750+
---
I found this motor on eBay, what do we think?

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/100hp-75kw-3p...9?pt=UK_BOI_Electrical_Components_Supplies_ET
---
Also, I have read a couple of things about people attaching an extra smaller motor to each wheel - giving it extra power. Is this worth it in terms of power consumption over power?
---
Donor car - At the moment I'm fighting a battle between my heart and my brain. My heart wants to use a Mustang GT but my brain says don't be a complete and utter moron and get a SUV. Despite all the harsh words my brain is using and how much sense it makes to get a SUV I’m leaning toward the Mustang.
---
I have seen some talk of using capacitors. Can someone please tell me the benefit of use these?
---
I am more than likely going to be using Lithium-ion batteries.

No doubt I have missed a lot of things out here but it's a good enough starting point.

If anyone knows of any good blueprints or equivalent, that would be good.

Thanks in advanced for any help.


----------



## zeroemission (Sep 14, 2010)

*Re: I want to build an EV! Where do I start?*

going WAY back to the first couple of pages regarding car recommendations... you know what car would be an AWESOME conversion if you could find one? an *opel GT*! it's like a baby corvette


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## sgtlethargic (Sep 17, 2010)

*Re: I want to build an EV! Where do I start?*

Planning <make> <model> conversion:
'61 Ford (Falcon) Ranchero
and/or
'69 Honda Trail 90

Hi,
Electric vehicles have crossed my mind again. It would be an errand vehicle. I have an old Ranchero and a Honda 90. I'll also post in the motorcyclebikes forum. I'd like thoughts on the basic EV parts and cost to build either vehicle, and which might be a better choice in vehicle. I've done a propane conversion.

Thanks,
Kurt



Your skill level with auto mechanics and fabrication
Above average.


The range you are hoping to get (how many miles/charge)
60-100?


What level of performance you are hoping to get
Decent around town performance. I live in a foothills area.


How much money you are willing to put into your project
On the cheaper side.


What parts you've already considered, if any.
None.


----------



## joltfreak (Dec 3, 2010)

*Re: I want to build an EV! Where do I start?*

Hi I'm looking into the possibility of building a EV car. 
i want to use a classic mini as the base. i'm thinking of configuring it as a front motor rwd. i definitely want to use a forklift motor as my powerplant (i work for a company that deals with raymond electric lift trucks). any info on which motors out of which raymond truck would work would be great. i'm looking to get a good street car with some track use. 

one set up i was thinking about was using a forklift motor mated to a GM 350 turbo auto tranny with a shift kit. i heard that auto tranny many not be a good idea but i don't know why?


Your skill level with auto mechanics and fabrication
Average skills


The range you are hoping to get (how many miles/charge)
as much as possible looking for a range of 200mi+

What level of performance you are hoping to get
as much as possible

How much money you are willing to put into your project
i'm wanting to do this on the cheap


What parts you've already considered, if any.
i want to use as many parts from raymond lift trucks (i have access to lots of raymond lift truck parts)


Thanks in advanced for any help


----------



## Anaerin (Feb 4, 2009)

*Re: I want to build an EV! Where do I start?*



joltfreak said:


> The range you are hoping to get (how many miles/charge)
> as much as possible looking for a range of 200mi+
> 
> What level of performance you are hoping to get
> ...


The adage appears to be "Fast, Long Range, Cheap. Pick two."


----------



## joltfreak (Dec 3, 2010)

*Re: I want to build an EV! Where do I start?*



Anaerin said:


> The adage appears to be "Fast, Long Range, Cheap. Pick two."


i guess cheap with balance of range and speed


----------



## workedrone (Dec 5, 2010)

*Re: I want to build an EV! Where do I start?*

Hi folks - newbie here in Western MA. I'd like to build an electric pickup and am just starting my research.

Trying to think of the most practicality for the dollar here and am starting out with the idea of a 2wd pickup truck, manual trans, A/C and heat would be a plus since it's humid in the summer and cold in the winter here.

I have a 100 mile daily commute currently, which I'm hoping to reduce by selling my home and buying another closer to work. Not sure if this should figure into the equation then as I'm sure it will substantially increase the cost for batteries.

Ultimately I'd like to have a sizable PV array on my home or garage with the surplus charging the vehicle or going back to the grid.

But at a minimum I'd like to have a practical pick 'm up vehicle that I can use for local duties - any and all advice appreciated, thanks! Just want to get an idea of the minimum $ and hours I'll need to put in, then tweak from there.

I'm pretty handy, I do all my own work on my cars including changing timing belts and such, and I have a friend who's a regular mechanical genius and capable machinist / welder.

Should I try to find a kit or spec it all out piece by piece?


----------



## sgtlethargic (Sep 17, 2010)

*Re: I want to build an EV! Where do I start?*

I was disappointed in the response (or lack thereof) to my post in this thread and found that posting a new thread (something like "Planning 1951 Hudson Hornet EV") in this "All EV Conversions and Builds" forum got more action.


----------



## electromet (Oct 20, 2009)

*Re: I want to build an EV! Where do I start?*

Sarge,

So where is that '51 Hudson Hornet? I love old AMC products.


----------



## MinEV (Dec 16, 2010)

*Re: I want to build an EV! Where do I start?*



joltfreak said:


> Hi I'm looking into the possibility of building a EV car. i want to use a classic mini as the base.


Hello joltfreak, I'm in the planning stages of doing exactly that, with the same requirements as you too, though maybe not quite the range as you. How far have you got in planning?

My requirements are quite difficult, by the research I've done. I need to travel locally commuting to work, shopping, errands, etc - all under 15mile round trips. However, I also need to travel about 110 miles every few weeks. I don't want to lug around batteries that I'm not going to need for my daily needs all the time so I need to find a plug-in top-up solution for the long trips. Except for commuting, all trips will be made with myself, my partner and our baby.

So far I'm concentrating on researching a light as feasible Mini body - replacing panels with fibreglass/carbon, replacing the subframes with racing inspired versions (saving about half the weight of a standard subframe but much stronger and adjustable). I think I've got a rolling body down to under 350Kg - on paper anyway!

I'm not going to use the standard Mini transmission, which is quite light, but still too heavy. I'm looking for alternatives and I think I may have found one that weighs about 15Kg. I haven't even started with choosing electrics yet but I'm thinking of having two 16KW Agni motors driving the rear wheels, all of the daily batteries under the rear seat and boot (trunk), controller, charger and anything else under the bonnet (hood). I can also find the space for my long range plug-in pack there too.

I've looked at all the mini conversions I can find but none have the same constraints and objectives that I do. Any planning help would certainly be appreciated.

Steve


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## MrRandom (Dec 28, 2010)

*Re: I want to build an EV! Where do I start?*

Hi, I want to start EV converting. I have no idea where to start. I'm looking for a top speed of 70km/h and a range of 100 mile/ charge. I think I want to convert a volvo 745. Do you guys have any idea of what price the conversion's going to cost? Including controller, volt meter etc.


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## regen (Jan 21, 2011)

*Re: I want to build an EV! Where do I start?*

I have a 1948 dodge pickup as a donor vehicle that I would like to convert into an EV. My hope is to use an A/C system directly coupled to the rear end to minimize on mechanical losses due to the transmission and driveline and to maximize on regenerative braking.
I do realize that the truck is heavy and the weight compounds the issue with the added batteries needed to run an old heavy truck such as this. My commute to work is only a few miles and I hope that I can come up with a system that is both robust and economical, also to show that electrification is the wave of the future.
What I'm looking for is suggestions and info on motor h.p. and type; 3 phase vs single phase, inverter, controller, battery type; lead acid compared to lithium ion, ect. The more bang for the buck the better.


----------



## padstack (Feb 1, 2011)

*Re: I want to build an EV! Where do I start?*



regen said:


> I have a 1948 dodge pickup as a donor vehicle that I would like to convert into an EV. My hope is to use an A/C system directly coupled to the rear end to minimize on mechanical losses due to the transmission and driveline and to maximize on regenerative braking.
> I do realize that the truck is heavy and the weight compounds the issue with the added batteries needed to run an old heavy truck such as this. My commute to work is only a few miles and I hope that I can come up with a system that is both robust and economical, also to show that electrification is the wave of the future.
> What I'm looking for is suggestions and info on motor h.p. and type; 3 phase vs single phase, inverter, controller, battery type; lead acid compared to lithium ion, ect. The more bang for the buck the better.


I'd like to do something similar, only with a 1968 F100. Speed is not a big issue with me since it would only be driven on back roads. Plenty of room for batteries!

Skill level - above average with cars. Average with Electronics (legit electronics - not "setting up my DVD player" electronics)

Range - anything over 40 miles would be a bonus.

Performance - 35-45MPH would be ideal

$$ willing to spend - like everyone, little as possible, but realize that realistically I'm talking about at least $7K on the electrical if I play it cheap.

What parts I've considered - The truck is a completely stripped down version. The only "extras" I'll want are a BASIC radio. Will be doing LED headlights/blinkers/dome light - a bed cover (to house extra batteries). I have someone who will crimp all the cables for free (or at least dirt cheap). The body of the truck is massive which would allow plenty of room for motor/ batteries. One thing I will have to figure out is weight distribution. No heater won't be a big deal since this will be a "nice day only" vehicle.

I have plenty of time to worry about electronics since I have some body work to do (but not a lot). Biggest drawback is that the only thing I've seen in fiberglass for this truck is the front fenders, so weight reduction will be limited. It helps that it's a pretty "light" truck (yeah, I realize "light" is relative!)  There is no power ANYTHING on the truck so that should make it simpler as well, right? I want it to look completely stock until you pop the hood or battery box in the bed!

Any advice?

Thank you!


----------



## padstack (Feb 1, 2011)

*Re: I want to build an EV! Where do I start?*



gottdi said:


> You guys might truly consider going DC and keeping your transmissions. Stuff in a nice 11" or 13" DC motor and a boat load of batteries (lead or lithiums) and a nice Soliton1 controller and go have some fun. The torque of the large motors will swing those trucks around like nothing. Distance may be an issue but if you get enough lithiums you could get some decent range. The batteries will be your most expensive investment if you go lithiums. I would not go direct drive with AC. You might consider changing the gear ratios so you can better utilize the transmission but by all means keep it and keep the clutch too. The weight savings is nothing in a vehicle of that weight.
> 
> Pete


Thank you! That's kinda what I was figuring from what I've read. I'm not looking for a lot of range. Heck, the longest trip I ever have taken with the ICE was like 50mi round trip so distance is nothing to me really. I just like to go to local car shows and hang out. Usually the one I go to is less than 5mi away and the grocery store is less than 6.

Thanks again!


----------



## padstack (Feb 1, 2011)

*Re: I want to build an EV! Where do I start?*



gottdi said:


> That is even easier to do. But you still want it a viable and usable vehicle. Not just a show bunny. You want to go out and show those guys that electric is not just a toy but something to really consider. You want to be able to smoke your rubber of the tires too for show. It will get the attention you desire. I could do a 65 Chevy. I have the adaptor and motor. Now I need the truck, batteries and controller.
> 
> Until then I will continue with my VW Bus and MG.
> 
> ...


I certainly respect that. With me though, I was going to use the 240 I-6 so there wasn't much tire smoking in the future anyway! 

Viable and usable is definitely a top priority. I'm going to be putting more into this truck than it will ever be worth (this is the stripped down model that I'm using for sentimental reasons). I don't want to dump this much cash into something and not be able to use it! I figure I can have plenty of battery space and stay conservative on the speed side and go for distance. If I could get 40-50 miles, I would be golden. Basically run all errands and take my kid to school.

Thanks to everyone so far for any responses! I hope to have a project thread going in the spring!

BTW, any tips on where to start looking for a motor? From my understanding, that's the easy part. Also, where do I start my search for a controller and how to interface it with the "gas" pedal?

From my understanding, I would have a machine shop machine a plate to interface the transmission (3-speed column shift) to the motor and then would need to come up with an adaptor from the motor shaft to the spline of the transmission.

That should at least get me started!


----------



## Hunter2379 (Feb 5, 2011)

*Re: I want to build an EV! Where do I start?*

Barely but im a fast learner. Do know somethings about cars, electronics, and enginnering, oh and physics.
I do a lot of driving, so i need a lot of miles. 40-100 i guess.
Being able to go atleast 40mph.
I'm 17 and don't have much. I do have a job as a consultant so it's somedays i work, some i don't. I'm willing to save up and put money in slowly but surely. 
No parts yet, im here to ask the experts.
Thank you!


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## idarusskie (Feb 17, 2011)

*Re: I want to build an EV! Where do I start?*

I am new here just looking around. I am an electronic technician so I think I ohms law.... 

I drove an ICE geo metro for 460,000 miles ( 3 engines). I have a commute that is 50 miles each way on a road that if you do not go 65 will get bumped into the weeds if you are lucky. I would like to go electric. I pay.056 /kwh so that part would be nice. However, the cost of the batteries must be figured in as well. The batteries will age weather you use them or not. I also live in Idaho. Heat is a big issue. You got to see out the windshield and 2. the batters need the heat. Imagine what the batteries will be like at at-31.

so what are the best battery solutions?


----------



## pspuria81 (Mar 4, 2011)

*Re: I want to build an EV! Where do I start?*

does anyone know the name of the site where u can pick and choose combinations of electric motor, controller, battery and type of car
and will calculate max speed, required voltages, volt usage etc etc

it was a very helpful tool and i cant seem to find it in my list of links

also has anyone converted a jeep cherokee 4X4 i like going offroading and i want to avoid filling my tank with gas and instead charge it and play


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## pspuria81 (Mar 4, 2011)

*Re: I want to build an EV! Where do I start?*



pspuria81 said:


> does anyone know the name of the site where u can pick and choose combinations of electric motor, controller, battery and type of car
> and will calculate max speed, required voltages, volt usage etc etc
> 
> it was a very helpful tool and i cant seem to find it in my list of links
> ...



nevermind i found the link this is very useful tool!!
http://www.evconvert.com/tools/evcalc/


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## dtbaker (Jan 5, 2008)

*Re: I want to build an EV! Where do I start?*



idarusskie said:


> I drove an ICE geo metro for 460,000 miles ( 3 engines). I have a commute that is 50 miles each way on a road that if you do not go 65 will get bumped into the weeds if you are lucky. I would like to go electric. ...
> so what are the best battery solutions?


you will HAVE to go lithium....

in the metro/swift I fit 120v worth of 100ah (38 cells) and retained use of back seat and cargo area. My range is a comfortable 45 miles, maybe pushed to 50 but it sounds like you need to reserve some for heating cabin and battery boxes in winter.

If you can give up a little cargo area, you may fit 120v worth of 160ah cells, or even 200ah cells, but you will be better off if you can re-charge while at work.

I picked 120v because that is max rated for 8" motor and low-end 400amp curtis controller. The 8" fits; any larger and you will have to do some creative changes to the CV axle bearing that normally bolts to the engine block..... (visit my website gallery to see details)


----------



## mrpackethead (Mar 9, 2011)

*Re: I want to build an EV! Where do I start?*

Hi, fuel just hit $2.22/l here ( thats about $US7 / gallon ), and i'm picking it will keep rising. Time to do something about it.

i went looking at the new options but realistically theres nothing here in NZ that i can buy to do the job, so it means that i'm going to have to do something.

I'd need a range of around 80-100km to be useful, and i need to be able to drive at 100km/hr on the motorway, or i'll get run over. Looking for a small commuter car for 1/2 people and the groceries.. 

I was looking sideways at our toyota corrolla 2006 as a starter, but its an auto, and i've read thats a bad starting point. 

SO, i think i'm looking for a donor car, and the bits to make it work. After all the reading i've done, i think what i'd like to do is get get a car which has been done multiple times before and all the "bits" are made.. Does such a kit exisit? Yes i know that will cost me. I'm not really wanting to do lots of machining of parts. I'd perfer to go for a donor car that is resonably modern... don't need to be driving a pile of junk

Budget based on economics.. I'll put money into this where it makes sense to.


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## ElectrifiedMonteSS (Feb 27, 2011)

*Re: I want to build an EV! Where do I start?*

An automatic trany can be used, it just needs to be reworked so there is no bleed back/off of the trans fluid..


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## John (Sep 11, 2007)

*Re: I want to build an EV! Where do I start?*



mrpackethead said:


> Hi, fuel just hit $2.22/l here ( thats about $US7 / gallon ), and i'm picking it will keep rising. Time to do something about it.
> 
> I'd perfer to go for a donor car that is resonably modern... don't need to be driving a pile of junk
> 
> Budget based on economics.. I'll put money into this where it makes sense to.


The longer a particular model of vehicle is in production the general trend is the fatter it gets as the manufacturer adds more and more enhancements to the car. You also have to go back a fair way (1980's or go really new) to avoid having to find a solution for the power steering. Very few late model cars have unpowered steering systems. Some new cars like the Hyundai i30 I think have electrical assist and some like the Toyota MR2 have electro hydraulic systems. I've heard that depowering a power steering system is frowned upon in NZ.

I would also say that if you're considering going electric for purely personal economics reasons that you will find it very difficult to find a scenario that adds up to a saving overall. When calculating running costs remember to include battery cost over expected battery life. Often economic justifications omit this factor in order to look more favourable.


----------



## dtbaker (Jan 5, 2008)

*Re: I want to build an EV! Where do I start?*



mrpackethead said:


> SO, i think i'm looking for a donor car, and the bits to make it work. After all the reading i've done, i think what i'd like to do is get get a car which has been done multiple times before and all the "bits" are made.. Does such a kit exisit?


widely available donor is the suzuki swift/geo metro.... millions available between 1990-1998, many in decent shape still for less than $1000 USD, and many converted to EVs means you don't have to invent much. tranny adaptor available at CanEV.com and others, kits with all the major stuff plus schematics from kta-services.com and others....

I would highly suggest 120vx100ah Thundersky or CALB (38 cells) at this stage of the game rather than the old school 96v lead. It makes total sense in the long run, and performs WAY better.


----------



## John (Sep 11, 2007)

*Re: I want to build an EV! Where do I start?*



dtbaker said:


> widely available donor is the suzuki swift/geo metro.... millions available between 1990-1998, many in decent shape still for less than $1000 USD, and many converted to EVs means you don't have to invent much. tranny adaptor available at CanEV.com and others, kits with all the major stuff plus schematics from kta-services.com and others....


Also the Holden Barina was a badge engineered Suzuki Swift/Cultus up until 1994 and so could also use Geo Metro conversion kit. When going for such a light vehicle it will probably be necessary to remove the back seat i.e. make it a two seater and use a light weight battery pack. The usable payload (the difference between GVWR and curb weights) is quite small in these little cars. Australian ADR's have a prescribed weight that must be subtracted from the payload for each passenger. From memory I think it is 80kg plus 13kg baggage allowance per passenger. NZ rules should be similar.


----------



## dtbaker (Jan 5, 2008)

*Re: I want to build an EV! Where do I start?*



John said:


> When going for such a light vehicle it will probably be necessary to remove the back seat i.e. make it a two seater and use a light weight battery pack.


the swift/metro has room for 6 floodies, or 23+ 100ah cells under the rear seat if you cut a hole. The added benefit to Li is that you end up with a finished car at original curb weight or less, where a lead version is at least 600# over stock.


----------



## John (Sep 11, 2007)

*Re: I want to build an EV! Where do I start?*



dtbaker said:


> the swift/metro has room for 6 floodies, or 23+ 100ah cells under the rear seat if you cut a hole. The added benefit to Li is that you end up with a finished car at original curb weight or less, where a lead version is at least 600# over stock.


Dan,
What sort of range are you getting on the 100ah cells, 12kWh pack?
P.S. Also at what sort of average speed would you travel at to achieve that?


----------



## dtbaker (Jan 5, 2008)

*Re: I want to build an EV! Where do I start?*



John said:


> Dan,
> What sort of range are you getting on the 100ah cells, 12kWh pack?
> P.S. Also at what sort of average speed would you travel at to achieve that?


initial measurements under 'normal' driving without super ecno driving style are yielding around 1 mile per 2 ah. typical driving is 'suburban' lightly rolling terrain with average speed probably around 35-40 mph and a fair number of stop/start intersections, several per mile on average. I have some stretches at 50-55 on a main arterial, and some stop and go at 25 downtown.

My typical day is 20 to 25 miles, and I don't plan on running past 60% or 70% DOD, so the 100ah cells are just dandy. I have a moderate 400amp maximum curtis 1221 controller, and so almost never hit 3C drain on the cells except for 20 seconds acceleration from stops.

I will run and record some more precise energy use measurements for comparison to some I made on lead before upgrade, but haven't gotten to it yet!


----------



## dtbaker (Jan 5, 2008)

*Re: I want to build an EV! Where do I start?*



John said:


> I would also say that if you're considering going electric for purely personal economics reasons that you will find it very difficult to find a scenario that adds up to a saving overall. When calculating running costs remember to include battery cost over expected battery life. Often economic justifications omit this factor in order to look more favourable.


I believe that at this point in history gas is high enough, and the newer large format LiFePO4 cells are economical enough, where we are actually able to say in good faith that the total operational costs of a moderate EV with DC motor can be less than similar ICE vehicle.

I walk thru MY numbers on my site.... comments welcome
http://www.envirokarma.org/ev/01.Design.shtml


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## mrpackethead (Mar 9, 2011)

*Re: I want to build an EV! Where do I start?*



dtbaker said:


> widely available donor is the suzuki swift/geo metro.... millions available between 1990-1998, many in decent shape still for less than $1000 USD, and many converted to EVs means you don't have to invent much. tranny adaptor available at CanEV.com and others, kits with all the major stuff plus schematics from kta-services.com and others....
> 
> I would highly suggest 120vx100ah Thundersky or CALB (38 cells) at this stage of the game rather than the old school 96v lead. It makes total sense in the long run, and performs WAY better.


Thanks everyone for some really helpful starters.. I've been having a look and can get a good condition swift for a few grand. Will also make my wife my happier than ripping her corrolla apart..  Theres no way i'd consider Lead Acid batteries.. I think i'll spend my efforts on locating batterys at the best possible price point. I import lots of stuff from china, surely i can find somethign there!! ( yes i know some of its junk, but some of its great ).. Its got to make "sort of economic sense" but there is more to it than that of course.


----------



## John (Sep 11, 2007)

*Re: I want to build an EV! Where do I start?*

If I read Dans information correctly his pack is good for about 50 miles or 80km's at 100% discharge which would yield a range of about 35 miles or about 55km at a 70% DOD limit. Note also that this range was achieved at fairly low speeds. Extended periods at higher speeds would probably reduce this range a bit. To achieve your desired range based on these numbers you might want to up the cell size to 160ah or 200ah depending on what end of your 80 to 100 km range you went for. Doubling the pack size may cause you some problems with fitting it in. If you can trim down your desired range a bit the conversion will become cheaper and lighter and more likely to produce an economic return. The added advantage of larger cells is a larger amperage at a 3C discharge limit.
The Geo Metro I believe was only sold in the States up until 2000 so a Swift that is younger than this may or may not fit the Metro adaptors.

GVWR for the Swift 96-99 is 1,190kg. Curb for US spec varies from 852 (96) to 875 (99). This gives a payload of 338kg and 315kg respectively minus two adults at 93kg each leaves 130kg and 152kg respectively. 38 of 100ah thundersky cells at 3.5kg per cell weight is 133kg. 38 of 160ah cells at 5.6kg is 213kg. By using a smallish motor and controller it should be a bit lighter than the ICE it replaces increasing available payload capacity for batteries.

You would be wise to verify the Curb and GVWR number with Suzuki as these number seem to vary a bit from country to country.


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## dtbaker (Jan 5, 2008)

*Re: I want to build an EV! Where do I start?*



John said:


> If I read Dans information correctly his pack is good for about 50 miles ...Note also that this range was achieved at fairly low speeds. Extended periods at higher speeds would probably reduce this range a bit. ...The added advantage of larger cells is a larger amperage at a 3C discharge limit.


 I have not gotten a certified scale weigh of the updated Li car. I suspect it is at or slightly less than original ICE weight with my 100ah cells. The 120v worth (38) of 100ah cells is about all you can fit unless you are willing to sacrifice some cargo space, rear seat, or stack things REALLY tightly under the hood; and yes the actual use consumption is looking like 50 miles would be 90% DOD under 'normal' suburban driving with some low speed, some high, and a fair amount of stop/go.


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## John (Sep 11, 2007)

*Re: I want to build an EV! Where do I start?*

It is invaluable to have real world information like this when working out the details of a proposed EV. One headache a New Zealander would have with a conversion similar to yours here is that we cannot make any structural alterations to the car forward of the drivers sitting position. Nobody would certify it and it could not be legally used on the road. Cutting out the front cross member and replacing it would be a certain fail here.


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## dtbaker (Jan 5, 2008)

*Re: I want to build an EV! Where do I start?*



John said:


> It is invaluable to have real world information like this when working out the details of a proposed EV. One headache a New Zealander would have with a conversion similar to yours here is that we cannot make any structural alterations to the car forward of the drivers sitting position. Nobody would certify it and it could not be legally used on the road. Cutting out the front cross member and replacing it would be a certain fail here.


well thie x-member in this case is not 'load bearing' as none of the suspension is attached, only the old radiator. Done right, I doubt an inspector would notice. 

interesting about the mods though! In my state there was NO physical inspection at all... a little scary actually. I would guess that if you were willing to give up a little rear cargo space, or build 'saddlebags' under the hood, you could still fit the full 38 x 100ah cells without re-designed front member. The Li cells can be stacked any orientation (unlike FLA), so you can find room.... i.e. the space I put the new charger could easily hold 6 cells and the charger moved elsewhere.


----------



## mk4gti (May 6, 2011)

*Re: I want to build an EV! Where do I start?*

Planning Ford Festiva conversion:

What you will want to post is: 

Your skill level with auto mechanics and fabrication: Moderate back yard mechanic 10+ years, excellent electrical background
The range you are hoping to get: 20 mile commute
What level of performance you are hoping to get: keep up with 45mph city traffic
How much money you are willing to put into your project: sub 5k
What parts you've already considered, if any: I'm open. Thinking about a 96v or 120v project.
Car was free, I figure that once it's gutted it must weigh like 100 pounds  

I'd love to hear your thoughts on how I can build this "festEVa" (tm)


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## slumpp (Jun 29, 2008)

*Re: I want to build an EV! Where do I start?*

Hello 
I also am doing the research. I watch EVTV.me Videoes weekly.
It is a hobby Until the batteries, chargers, motors and controllers 
are mass produced. 
This week, I found evfinder.com , evalblum.com and cloudelectric.com. Cloud has a kits section with real world ideas of the speeds for different weight cars. I am doing the math and the batteries are $8000.00 USD. for 108volts.
good luck




mk4gti said:


> Planning Ford Festiva conversion:





mk4gti said:


> What you will want to post is:
> 
> Your skill level with auto mechanics and fabrication: Moderate back yard mechanic 10+ years, excellent electrical background
> The range you are hoping to get: 20 mile commute
> ...


----------



## Errikos (May 9, 2011)

*Re: I want to build an EV! Where do I start?*

What if you want to build one from scratch, not from a donor vehicle? How legal would that be? How would you apply for a license and registration and what would be required of the vehicle to do so?


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## slumpp (Jun 29, 2008)

*Re: I want to build an EV! Where do I start?*

Timing is good for this question. 
Carlisle, Pa is having there Kit car show in two weeks\, the dates are May 19-22. Google there website. I would start with a call to the local State highway Patrol office. What state is home. The EVTV.me guys;
Jack and Brian are doing a conversion show in Sept. There a a great real source and have over 200 hours of video at WWW.EVTV.me,



Errikos said:


> What if you want to build one from scratch, not from a donor vehicle? How legal would that be? How would you apply for a license and registration and what would be required of the vehicle to do so?


----------



## TomCs (May 15, 2011)

*Re: I want to build an EV! Where do I start?*

Hello folks,

New member here. I have been building and rebuilding cars, boats and motorcycles for 40 or so years, but have never been exposed to anything electrically powered, other than driving a golf cart. Is there a FAQ or EV for dummies somewhere that explains the various components and options that make up the drive train for an EV? 

For instance, until reading some articles on here, I did not know that AC motors could be used and have no idea what all the separate components are that make up the AC based unit. How do you go from the battery pack to provide the AC to the motor? An inverter? What controls the speed? and on and on..... So if there is a EV for dummies article, I would welcome reading it.

Thanks to the group
Tom


----------



## slumpp (Jun 29, 2008)

*Re: I want to build an EV! Where do I start?*

Checkout www.evalbum. It contains a list of owners, there donor car, and list of components. Your specific question is a controller. The most popular are the Kelly and Curtis used in also Solertron is the new kid on the block. www.EVTV.me has 200 hours of Video on the subject. Also try a supplier Cloud electric and look at kits for a list of match motors and controllers. AC motors require a very specific controller and are purchased a pair and will cost more than a dc configuration. AC is automatically regerative in nature but regeneration come at a price. Yes it will help brake the car, but the recharging gained is not free.
all the best,
steve 



TomCs said:


> Hello folks,
> 
> 
> New member here. I have been building and rebuilding cars, boats and motorcycles for 40 or so years, but have never been exposed to anything electrically powered, other than driving a golf cart. Is there a FAQ or EV for dummies somewhere that explains the various components and options that make up the drive train for an EV?
> ...


----------



## dan5466 (Jun 27, 2009)

*Re: I want to build an EV! Where do I start?*

My vehicle choice is a 73 TR6 in nearly restored condition. Has been garage kept for 20 years after engine and body rebuild. Engine has 20,000 miles. I did most of the work myself.

I am a Physics teacher and my understanding and practical application of electricity and electronics is better than good. I have no welding skills.

I am looking for some suggestions on the following...
1) Would you recommend a book to read or just self educate on the forums?
2) If book, what is it?
3) The books I have looked at seem to be outdated.

The car is a toy and I ride my bike to work.

I hope to get it to 75 mph and at least 50 mile range in 32F to 95F temps.

I would like to do most, if not all, the work and complete in less than two years. 

I have $10K to $15K to spend.

Thanks,

Dan


----------



## dtbaker (Jan 5, 2008)

*Re: I want to build an EV! Where do I start?*



dan5466 said:


> My vehicle choice is a 73 TR6 in nearly restored condition. Has been garage kept for 20 years after engine and body rebuild. Engine has 20,000 miles. I did most of the work myself.
> 
> I am a Physics teacher and my understanding and practical application of electricity and electronics is better than good. I have no welding skills.
> 
> ...


sounds perfect!
the old standby book 'convert it' is still mostly applicable. The batteries have changed, but that doesn't affect much in the way of schematics and simplifies the space and weight considerations if you go Lithium. Get the book, consider Gav's DVDs, and keep reading threads here!

I think you'd have a blast, and come in under $15k if you consider: Warp9 motor, Soliton Jr controller, 120v or 144v x 100ah Thundersky/Winston/CALB batteries, Elcon 1500 charger, Chennic or Curtis dc-dc, and all the little bits.....


----------



## slumpp (Jun 29, 2008)

*Re: I want to build an EV! Where do I start?*

The www.evtv.me guys have an advantage in that their weekly show, Is a weekly update of the products available.
They are hosting a September Convention called EVCCON.
Check it out.
I second the parts on Mr. Baker's list.
Insure that the Solitron Jr. will carry the current.
The Solitron 1 is rated at 1000 Amps.
Also look at the Curtis Controller.
All the best,
Steve



dtbaker said:


> sounds perfect!
> 
> the old standby book 'convert it' is still mostly applicable. The batteries have changed, but that doesn't affect much in the way of schematics and simplifies the space and weight considerations if you go Lithium. Get the book, consider Gav's DVDs, and keep reading threads here!
> 
> I think you'd have a blast, and come in under $15k if you consider: Warp9 motor, Soliton Jr controller, 120v or 144v x 100ah Thundersky/Winston/CALB batteries, Elcon 1500 charger, Chennic or Curtis dc-dc, and all the little bits.....


----------



## johnsiddle (Jun 22, 2011)

*Re: I want to build an EV! Where do I start?*

Hi Guy's.
I've done Bio fuel in a big diesel, photo panels on the roof, heat pump for hot water and a hot tub made out of a 1000ltr IBC, I am now starting to look at EV.

My initial thought is a cheap 1.2 Corsa, possibly with a milk float motor (36-48V) connected to the gearbox minus the clutch.

Would this work and would I be able to change gear just by throttling off the motor or would the gears just crash?

How would I make the connection, UJ as used for prop shafts ( only smaller)?

Regards John


----------



## slumpp (Jun 29, 2008)

*Re: I want to build an EV! Where do I start?*



johnsiddle said:


> Hi Guy's.
> I've done Bio fuel in a big diesel, photo panels on the roof, heat pump for hot water and a hot tub made out of a 1000ltr IBC, I am now starting to look at EV.
> 
> My initial thought is a cheap 1.2 Corsa, possibly with a milk float motor (36-48V) connected to the gearbox minus the clutch.
> ...


Hello John,
first of all, The lower the voltage the larger the wires and the high the amperage of each component. That's why the prius voltage is above 200.
I like the clutch as a safety device, along with a emergency shut off switch. Yes, cars have been built without clutches and transmissions.
There are coupling for industrial applications. Grainger sells them all day.
Please study www.evalbum.com to see the common components and accessories used in todays' EV's. Yes golf carts and folklifts do run,
but not at highway speeds.
All the best,
Steve


----------



## johnsiddle (Jun 22, 2011)

*Re: I want to build an EV! Where do I start?*



slumpp said:


> Hello John,
> first of all, The lower the voltage the larger the wires and the high the amperage of each component. That's why the prius voltage is above 200.
> I like the clutch as a safety device, along with a emergency shut off switch. Yes, cars have been built without clutches and transmissions.
> There are coupling for industrial applications. Grainger sells them all day.
> ...


Thanks Steve.
The Milk Float motor I am considering is I think, fairly old weighs 90kg and is about 19ins long including the shaft. It has a sprocket for chain drive at present.

It is rated at 36-48volt series wound DC, is it possible this would run at a higher voltage without burning out?
I think the problem in UK might be the availability of lightweight batteries so would probably have to plump for normal lead acid.
I do like the idea of having a clutch but I am worried that would over complicate the coupling to the motor.

I am assuming that a milk float would have to pull a lot of weight so the motor should be able to cope with a lightweight compact Corsa.

That website you linked to shows quite a selection of conversions but I am dismayed at the cost of these, here in the UK we tend to go for much cheaper ( at least thats the way I think ).
Regard John


----------



## slumpp (Jun 29, 2008)

*Re: I want to build an EV! Where do I start?*



johnsiddle said:


> Thanks Steve.
> The Milk Float motor I am considering is I think, fairly old weighs 90kg and is about 19ins long including the shaft. It has a sprocket for chain drive at present.
> 
> It is rated at 36-48volt series wound DC, is it possible this would run at a higher voltage without burning out?
> ...


This is at present a hobby. The math does not work.
I purchased a IBM PC in 1982. To 'know and industry' if you will.
We are in the same place with the electric cars. Until the parts are 
mass produced batteries, motors and controllers will remain high priced.
There are some Chinese components that help bring the price down a little. But this is not a cheap venture and the drive pass a gas station will cost you. No question. I am currently looking for an existing project.
Perhaps, a car with the right components and the wrong batteries.
I am looking on www.evfinder.com for ebay items. This is a place where cost is not value.
All the best,
Steve


----------



## johnsiddle (Jun 22, 2011)

*Re: I want to build an EV! Where do I start?*



slumpp said:


> This is at present a hobby. The math does not work.
> I purchased a IBM PC in 1982. To 'know and industry' if you will.
> We are in the same place with the electric cars. Until the parts are
> mass produced batteries, motors and controllers will remain high priced.
> ...


Thanks Steve.
Did you master the IBM PC, that seems like a lifetime away and about 38 years of my life.
All the best to you
John


----------



## lactak (Jun 27, 2011)

*Re: I want to build an EV! Where do I start?*

Hi, I have an OPEL VECTRA combi and I would like to turn it to electric.
It would be good to have 300km range and 130km/h max speed.Could you suggest some controllers with motors and batteries. Thanks a lot.


----------



## dtbaker (Jan 5, 2008)

*Re: I want to build an EV! Where do I start?*



lactak said:


> Hi, I have an OPEL VECTRA combi and I would like to turn it to electric.
> It would be good to have 300km range and 130km/h max speed.Could you suggest some controllers with motors and batteries. Thanks a lot.


300 km range is a bit much for anything close to an affordable battery pack, and would fill up the entire car. If you need more than 100 mile range, you may want to think about bio-diesel instead.


----------



## sardonic (Jul 18, 2011)

*Re: I want to build an EV! Where do I start?*

Hello, new guy here that has tentatively read about conversions but I need some advice on a particular vehicle.

1987 Toyota Van (aka: town ace, space cruiser, vanwagon)

-skill level is minimal (I know where things are but possess very little mechanical ability at this point) although I have mechanic friends that can help me along.

-looking for about the 50-70 mile range

-mostly city driving but speeds around 65-70 mph will be necessary plus heating and cooling in sporadic south dakota weather.

-price point is around $6k

-not sure about parts yet

The tricky part about the conversion is that the van has the front seats on top of the ICE and that it is an auto transmission. Also it has separate front and rear a/c-heating. With all my browsing I have only found a discussion on converting this model to electric once on the toyota van forum and that amounted to a reference to someone that had been rumored to have converted one.

Anyone's advice would be greatly appreciated!


----------



## fatsidney (Jul 11, 2011)

*Re: I want to build an EV! Where do I start?*

New here: been reading for some time and read a book this past weekend. My skill level is mainly on the electrical side but have swapped a motor and parts on my FJ60. I have a 30 mile commute mostly highway sometimes I pick up two kids. Would like around 70mph top. I have a budget from $15k give or take $5k if the wife thinks she can use it.

I am excited to start but am having trouble deciding on a donor car so no decision on components yet. 

I am about 6'4" and leg room in these smaller cars sucks. Plus to kids. 

I understand I need to keep the weight down, but I almost need a sedan. Any suggestions? 

Oh yeah. We are in Texas. 100+ heat so AC is important.

Thanks


----------



## Raiker (Sep 6, 2011)

*Re: I want to build an EV! Where do I start?*

I don't know if this is the correct thread but...

I've been planning on doing not a conversion but a complementation on my Renault R19, it's FF so i was thinking i could replace the rear axle with a pair of ev-motors and a good batterypack+electronics in the trunk (or in the spare wheel's compartment).
Is this feasible? since the idea is mostly to add the ev component for short commutes and start the 1.8l 8v 113hp engine only for highways or when range is depleted, it wouldn't be a big battery pack.
What i dont know is where to source the motors/electronics controller/packs
I live in argentina and i have experience in electronics and some in mechanics.


----------



## gsmith191145 (May 1, 2011)

*Re: I want to build an EV! Where do I start?*



Raiker said:


> I don't know if this is the correct thread but...
> 
> I've been planning on doing not a conversion but a complementation on my Renault R19, it's FF so i was thinking i could replace the rear axle with a pair of ev-motors and a good batterypack+electronics in the trunk (or in the spare wheel's compartment).
> Is this feasible? since the idea is mostly to add the ev component for short commutes and start the 1.8l 8v 113hp engine only for highways or when range is depleted, it wouldn't be a big battery pack.
> ...


Is this what you are looking for ? http://www.poulsenhybrid.com/


----------



## Raiker (Sep 6, 2011)

*Re: I want to build an EV! Where do I start?*

not exactly but seeing that a paultry 10hp ev+battery pack costs 8600usd i have to see the feasibility of the full phev mod...
Modifying the rear axle plus a 30~50hp motor would be over 10k...
besides i'm not sure such a powerassist system would lower consumption... not at normal highway speeds (130km/h~81mph) even then, going from 8lts/100km to 6lts/100km would not be profitable for a time longer than the service life of the car...


----------



## slumpp (Jun 29, 2008)

*Re: I want to build an EV! Where do I start?*



gsmith191145 said:


> Is this what you are looking for ? http://www.poulsenhybrid.com/


Hybrid cars. Let's not reinvent the wheel.
They are great. I can buy 10 of them used today.
$6000.00 thru $10,000.00 USD.
They have 400 more parts then a ICE car.
If I was in Argentina, I would buy the best, Diesel MPG
I could find. I love the MINI Cooper D, which is not available in the US.


----------



## Raiker (Sep 6, 2011)

*Re: I want to build an EV! Where do I start?*

i believe he was refering not to the voltage converter but to the "hybridization" device. That is what i was refering to when i said "paultry 10hp motors".
I know there are suppliers for a complete electric drivetrain (axle + motors), but i do not know said suppliers...


----------



## J.EV (Sep 22, 2011)

*Re: I want to build an EV! Where do I start?*

Wow... it’s amazing how much Info is gathered already in this Forums... I am getting totally hook up! 
My project is also aimed to a PHEV... I will be posting a new post, as suggested in the beginning of this thread. The car is a Honda FIT '10... 
I have been looking at poulsenhybrid's solution, and while I think it’s not the most elegant solution yet, it might be simplest one! Perhaps it will be possible of installing the kit on the inner side of the wheels? You would lose the easy solution, but in my case having a Fwd, it shouldn't be something out of these world to make it work... anyway this is just tinkering out of the box... 
I would love to see some ideas from all the experts in this community, and get even more exited on what should be my first ever EV experience... until I can purchase one from scratch...


----------



## diver653 (Sep 20, 2011)

*Re: I want to build an EV! Where do I start?*

Today I begin taking apart the forklift and I discovered that the 36 volt battery is way heavy- I am putting the forklift motor on a 1958 MGA frame and a friend is cleaning up the bod and frame while I disassamble the forklift. Are there buyers for the forks, hydraiulic arm and other parts that I will not be taking to the junk yard--or will those be junked as well? They work just fine--makes you wonder why anyone would tear apart a perfectly good fork lift eh?

Dennis


----------



## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

*Re: I want to build an EV! Where do I start?*



diver653 said:


> Today I begin taking apart the forklift and I discovered that the 36 volt battery is way heavy- I am putting the forklift motor on a 1958 MGA frame and a friend is cleaning up the bod and frame while I disassamble the forklift. Are there buyers for the forks, hydraiulic arm and other parts that I will not be taking to the junk yard--or will those be junked as well? They work just fine--makes you wonder why anyone would tear apart a perfectly good fork lift eh?
> 
> Dennis


Hi and welcome to the forum.

I am sure that there are people keen on all the lift and hydraulic parts, keep them together and clean so it is reusable.
It may be worth posting on a tractor and agricultural site as farmers would/could fit the forks to the back of a tractor to use.
One site I use for information is http://www.tractorbynet.com/forums/ but there will be others.

If you were in the UK, I'd be interested in the lift assembly.

The steel frame and weights would be scrap prices and batteries can be recycled.

You would need to look at smaller lead acid batteries or preferbly lithium if you can afford it.

It would be nice to see your conversion project if you would like to start thread on it.


----------



## diver653 (Sep 20, 2011)

*Re: I want to build an EV! Where do I start?*

I keep reading that I have to move up the brushes on the motor. What does that mean? thanks


----------



## sbagdon (Nov 11, 2011)

*Re: I want to build an EV! Where do I start?*

Thinking of converting a '92 Toyota Pickup. The motor/trans adapater plate is easy enough to buy pre-fab, yet I'm running into a roadblock on the motor/frame mounts. Is anyone selling mounts to replace the 20R/22R, or does anyone have any links to threads/pics of this install? I can wrap my mind easily enough around a fwd mount, yet a front-engine rear-drive seems to be escape me. Thanks!


----------



## syaniza2302 (Nov 15, 2011)

*Re: I want to build an EV! Where do I start?*

Hi,

I want to convert a minivas or minibus or an mpv, for carrying 8 persons. I plan to use this vehicle as an on-campus transportation for students. An innovation to be green.

I know that I want an 8 seater vehicle. Don't know if this has been done before in this forum. 
Speed, since it is being used in campus, could go up to 40-50 mph. One single round of the campus, probably could take up to 5 miles...So, I am hoping for the longest range possible.

Battery type, lead acid since it is cheapest...anyone suggest otherwise?

Motor, preferable dc would since that is easily available at reasonable cost.

Please I would appreciate all the help I can get on this.

Thank you very much.

syaniza


----------



## Volksian (Nov 17, 2011)

*Re: I want to build an EV! Where do I start?*

Hi all,

I've been interested in the notion of a EV ownership for at least a decade, so it's encouraging that I keep coming back to it.

I have a RHD 1965 T1 VW which I bought specifically as a value-holding base for EV conversion. Basically I thought, "well if this thing doesn't get off the ground, I won't lose anything on resale". Plan to keep all the ICE and 6V bits together on a purpose made pedestal ready for a retrofit should the need ever arise. But which will also double as a working engine demonstration unit. I'm sure future owners would love that if I ever decided to sell!!!

Can't wait to start researching in earnest now and there's been plenty on the 'Net to research over the last 6 months of ownership. However, shared ideas, opinions and the like will be gratefully received. Pictures of pre-conversion will follow shortly. 

The only thing that has concerned me is cold climate usage. Here in the UK, we've had a few pretty drastic winters of late, so battery maintenance and cabin heating are of some concern - although I'm resigned to 3-season usage.

As for range and performance: I'd be more interested in range and only want to use the Beetle as a city run-a-round.

Thanks all


----------



## bjfreeman (Dec 7, 2011)

*Re: I want to build an EV! Where do I start?*



syaniza2302 said:


> Hi,
> 
> I want to convert a minivas or minibus or an mpv, for carrying 8 persons. I plan to use this vehicle as an on-campus transportation for students. An innovation to be green.
> 
> ...


see http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showthread.php/hev-motor-traction-systems-66611.html
you will need a special charging station you will find a Capacitor bank with lithium batteries will be the most cost effective though not reasonable n start up. the charging station will use a Trolley like device on top and connect when you park with direct dc charge to batteries


----------



## touge_g35 (Jan 27, 2012)

*Re: I want to build an EV! Where do I start?*

Hello,

I'm looking to learn more about EV setups and conversions. 

I have an AE86 Toyota Corolla GTS which I would like to be a DD/Drifter.
I'm also aiming to maybe do time attacks if the car is quick enough.

My budget at the moment is about $500/month so this will take quite a while for the build but I'm willing to go through it to learn something new and have a car that doesn't rely on gas.

My projections are 
-100 miles on a single charge
-have enough torque to keep tires spinning at 50psi on 14" rims
-be able to utilize the tranny and differential
My inspired build just looking at a few videos doing research was White Zombie's setup. With his power I'm sure it'll be just enough for what I need.

























The car is fully stripped and ready to go.


----------



## jnmill12345 (Jan 29, 2012)

*Re: I want to build an EV! Where do I start?*

hello forum newbie here with conversion question, when my 2000 land rover engine eventually dies would it make a good project for converting? 

1. Have a step dad who is shade tree mechanic with his own garage + I'm ok with electric/electronics
2. Range @ least 30 miles if possible
3. Speed 55-65 mph
4. Cost of project $3k or less 
5. Looking @ 50hp dc motor from a Yale forklift 72/48 vdc


----------



## frodus (Apr 12, 2008)

*Re: I want to build an EV! Where do I start?*

People aren't going to help in this thread, this is a starter thread.



> Start by posting a new topic in the EV Conversions Forum.
> A good topic might be "Planning <make> <model> conversion"


So try posting a new thread with a clear topic and clear questions.

IMHO it's doable, but not for under $3000.


----------



## ruairi (Feb 15, 2012)

*Re: I want to build an EV! Where do I start?*

Hi,

I was wondering about the feasibility of building an electric Austin a35.
It needs to have a range of (depending on the price difference) either 15miles or 35-40miles. The car only weighs 685kg. I'd also need to be able to do around 75km/h.

Skill level - Electronics Technician, Mechanical - I am friendly with a good cheap mechanic.

Ideally I'd like to do this on a shoestring budget, however I'm not sure how feasible this would be.

Thanks in advance.


----------



## CrazyAl (May 9, 2011)

*Re: I want to build an EV! Where do I start?*



ruairi said:


> Hi,
> 
> I was wondering about the feasibility of building an electric Austin a35.
> It needs to have a range of (depending on the price difference) either 15miles or 35-40miles. The car only weighs 685kg. I'd also need to be able to do around 75km/h.
> ...


Hi,

Were you looking to convert the Saloon or Countryman? They are nice cars.

The questions you need to find answers to would be


are transmission parts still available?
can you still get wheel bearings?
can you still get axle parts?
are brake parts still available?
basically can you easily get parts for the common non engine wear and tear items or can they easily be made/fabricated?
I realize the above questions I've raised may sound a bit silly, but I know of cars stuck in a work shop whilst a hard to get part was being sourced.


As long as the body and chassis are in good condition, these cars should be relatively easy to convert. I'm guessing there is space in the engine bay. The older cars are fairly straight forward and with the absence of power steering (and possibly power brakes - don't quote me on this one), it reduces complexity compared to many newer cars.
These cars are fairly simple and have character.



In terms of budget, your biggest expense is most likely the batteries.
If you want to do it on a shoe string budget, then you might want to consider DC electric motor with compatible controller.


Are you near a junk yard where you can get old forklift motors etc?


Just to give you an idea of a kit that is advertised, check out 

http://e-volks.com/about2.html , but you will still need to do fabrication like with the adapter plate and coupler and other bits here and there.
Batteries not included in the kit.



Regards
Al


----------



## EVEngineeer (Apr 11, 2012)

*Re: I want to build an EV! Where do I start?*

Hello. I am new to this website and to the EV world. I need help, because I do not know what parts to buy to build an EV to the level that I want. I plan on converting a car myself, but with help from the correct people with car building skills. I have a long list of things that I am looking for in the car and I want to build it cheaper then the ones on the market, like the Chevy Volt, Nissan Leaf, and Tesla. I would like to spend as little as possible on the car, but I want it to be a practical car. The car that I want is preferably four door sedan, but can be two door. I would like it to be a normal size, that has 4+ seats with a good trunk, like a Honda Civic or Hyundai Elantra. I know that I can get a decent body for free from a business near me. I drive streets and highways. I do not care if the top speed does not reach what a typical gas powered car can reach, but if it could reach somewhere between 70-90mph that would be great. There are not any hills where I live, it is pretty flat. I only drive cars with an automatic transmission, but I have read that it is easier, cheaper, and better to have a manual transmission for an EV. I have never learned to drive a stick shift, so I do not really know what to do about that. Depending on what day it is, I drive between 25-75 miles per day. A few times a year I drive about 125 miles straight, non-stop, to a destination where it is just one straight highway and no turning back, because there is water all around, so that means I cannot refuel until I have reached my destination. So, I would like for the car to be able to get 100 miles range, but if I can get more that would be great. I understand that the cost would
be greater at this point, so I do not expect to get much more, with the price that I am looking for. If I cannot get a cheap enough or practical enough car to get the long distance drive, then that is fine with me, but it would be nice to be able to drive long range. There are not any charging stations near by, that I know of. The only outlet that would be convenient, would be in the garage. Also, I would like to have what a typical car has, like air conditioning, because it's hot where I live. So basically, I would just like to know what my options are with the pricing, and what do the options get me to achieve, in terms of speed, range, etc. Thank you. If I need to answer more questions, please let me know.


----------



## evnz (Jul 24, 2010)

sotomikes said:


> Ya I'm going to keep watching the prices for the 2002 as they go lower. Once they get into the 5k range I think I will have my donor car. Thanks for the input guys


Check the insurance and repo companies they might have a dead one going cheap


----------



## EVEngineeer (Apr 11, 2012)

*Re: I want to build an EV! Where do I start?*

like which companies? if that answer was directed toward my question.


----------



## dcgray2 (May 19, 2012)

*Re: I want to build an EV! Where do I start?*

All,

Considering a father / son project for my sons first car.

Looking at a 1959 Ford F-100 as the project car. 

- It's factory curb weight is 3000 lbs
- It has a 3 speed transmission.
- We live in SW PA so lots of hills.
- Would like the truck to be highway capable - sustained 70 MPH
- Want truck to have respectable performance, no race car, but no snoozer either
- Would like a reliable range of 70 miles

Would like to put weight of batteries in (under)? the bed to get weight over drive wheels. 

Need to understand if this is doable and at what approximate cost.

- What size motor?
- How many of what type of battery?
- And a whole bunch of questions that I don't even know that I don't know...

Thanks in advance!


----------



## johnsiddle (Jun 22, 2011)

*Re: I want to build an EV! Where do I start?*



Volksian said:


> Hi all,
> 
> I've been interested in the notion of a EV ownership for at least a decade, so it's encouraging that I keep coming back to it.
> 
> ...


Just starting out on my EV and was thinking about cabin heating in the UK and thought instead of trying to fit a ceramic heater in place of the heater core under the dash why not use the original cooling pipes with a small DC pump and a heater from a dishwasher and pump antifreeze around the original heater core. The heaters are just a piece of stainless steel pipe with a heater wrapped around it.
I have just got hold of a 2kv heater (UK standard) as an experiment. Ideally I would like to get one from the States cuz then it would be a 110v and my battery pack will be about 144/150v.
john


----------



## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

*Re: I want to build an EV! Where do I start?*



johnsiddle said:


> Just starting out on my EV and was thinking about cabin heating in the UK and thought instead of trying to fit a ceramic heater in place of the heater core under the dash why not use the original cooling pipes with a small DC pump and a heater from a dishwasher and pump antifreeze around the original heater core. The heaters are just a piece of stainless steel pipe with a heater wrapped around it.
> I have just got hold of a 2kv heater (UK standard) as an experiment. Ideally I would like to get one from the States cuz then it would be a 110v and my battery pack will be about 144/150v.
> john


That should work fine if you can get a 110V heater. The pump needs to be suitable to coolant though but many cars now have electric coolant pumps for 12V.
I considered the idea a year or so ago, I think jackbauer looked into it for his BMW but I can't remember if he implemented it.


----------



## johnsiddle (Jun 22, 2011)

*Re: I want to build an EV! Where do I start?*



Woodsmith said:


> That should work fine if you can get a 110V heater. The pump needs to be suitable to coolant though but many cars now have electric coolant pumps for 12V.
> I considered the idea a year or so ago, I think jackbauer looked into it for his BMW but I can't remember if he implemented it.


I have also bought a 12v pump on ebay (China) pushes about 90ltr/hr.
I will let you know how it goes.
Got my Volvo engine out yesterday, just got to renew two oil seal (I nicked one get the shaft out) and two trackrod ends.
I will then start a new thread.


----------



## CrazyAl (May 9, 2011)

*Re: I want to build an EV! Where do I start?*



dcgray2 said:


> All,
> 
> Considering a father / son project for my sons first car.
> 
> ...


In my opinion, your proposed project is doable.
Check out this 1958 Chevy Pick up Truck which was converted to electric. Although, it is not a Ford, I would imagine that they would have some similarities.

The only thing is that I'm not sure how easy it is to get Azure Dynamics parts.

Here is a 2002 Ford F150 Electric Conversion which might be of interest for you to look at.


----------



## Caps18 (Jun 8, 2008)

*Re: I want to build an EV! Where do I start?*



dcgray2 said:


> All,
> 
> Considering a father / son project for my sons first car.
> 
> ...


I am working on converting a S10. It has a similar weight and size. I am going to use a 9" Warp motor and 120V LiFePO4 batteries (100 Ah).

But, Ohio is rather flat compared to SW PA. My Dad is from there, and I have spent some time there. 

Your issues are going to be how many batteries you will need to get the range you are looking for. You will probably need 144V and 200 Ah to go that distance. Lead batteries are cheaper, but won't last very long compared to Lithium.

How much highway driving is another thing. Trucks aren't very aerodynamic, and going fast isn't good for range.

While it is a good project idea, it won't be cheap, and you could buy a new car for twice the price. It isn't a pick-up truck, but it is the easy way out. If you could live with 40 miles range or use Lead Acid, it might be better financially in the short term.


----------



## Volksian (Nov 17, 2011)

*Re: I want to build an EV! Where do I start?*



johnsiddle said:


> Just starting out on my EV and was thinking about cabin heating in the UK and thought instead of trying to fit a ceramic heater in place of the heater core under the dash why not use the original cooling pipes with a small DC pump and a heater from a dishwasher and pump antifreeze around the original heater core. The heaters are just a piece of stainless steel pipe with a heater wrapped around it.
> I have just got hold of a 2kv heater (UK standard) as an experiment. Ideally I would like to get one from the States cuz then it would be a 110v and my battery pack will be about 144/150v.
> john


Sorry for the delay in responding John. Great to hear you've just started out on this. Can't wait to see how the heating progresses.


----------



## johnsiddle (Jun 22, 2011)

*Re: I want to build an EV! Where do I start?*



Volksian said:


> Sorry for the delay in responding John. Great to hear you've just started out on this. Can't wait to see how the heating progresses.


No worries.

I am about to start a new thread documenting my progress.

My pump arrived from China, it is small but has quite a pressure and shifts a lot of water.
I didn't bother with the 230v heater I got from UK but bought a USA one (120v) so I am awaiting its arrival.
anyway I will save the rest for my construction thread.
John


----------



## mccallk (Sep 16, 2012)

*How much more difficult would this be...*

Okay, so i want to convert a car to electric, but first i'd like to know if inwheel motors are a possibility for converts and if so the difference in efficiency/top speed/ acceleration/ difficulty. i'm already well aware that the project would require much more forethought than an average conversion.

has anyone done this yet who can offer advice besides not to try it?
thanks!


----------



## Anaerin (Feb 4, 2009)

*Re: How much more difficult would this be...*



mccallk said:


> Okay, so i want to convert a car to electric, but first i'd like to know if inwheel motors are a possibility for converts and if so the difference in efficiency/top speed/ acceleration/ difficulty. i'm already well aware that the project would require much more forethought than an average conversion.
> 
> has anyone done this yet who can offer advice besides not to try it?
> thanks!


In-Wheel motors are rarer than gold-plated rocking-horse excrement. There are plenty of companies that are touting their availability, but if you actually contact them about it, they are only willing to work with Vehicle Manufacturers to get them built.

This has been the situation for the last 8 years or so, and it seems that it's not going to change any time soon.


----------



## jdsanderson (Sep 26, 2012)

*Re: I want to build an EV! Where do I start?*

Visit evmaker.tumblr.com It is not my whole story but it documents the progress of my build.

First I built a motor controler with an arduino as it's brain.

Then I bought a scrap induction motor and re wound it for a lower voltage.

Then i bought a ford ranger removed the ice, gas tank, fule lines and trany.

Then I made an adapter to attach the flywheel to the e-motor shaft and a cradle bracket to hold the motor to the trany and frame.

Then installed it in the truck , hooked up the controler, added fla batery.......

SHAZAM! the electric truck is born.


----------



## ADSL (Sep 26, 2012)

*Re: I want to build an EV! Where do I start?*

Hi im new over here I was trying to research a bit about EV stuff but i will like to resolve some doubts i have about it.

As I understeand is beter if we use a light weight car, but this is my situation.

I have a Dodge Spirit RT 2.5 turbo what i just keep it because I like it, i use it just 2 times per month and normally is for take it at drag racing, the times of this car on 1/4 mille are not impressive but are enought for have fun (14.5 secs at 5,138 ft elevation).

This car is also used as transport so is complete and stock talking about interiors. Lets say if im not on race track with it i will use it for no more than 60 miles per day prolly always is half of that.

So if i want to have the same speed and acceleration i have atm with the 2.5 turbo engine what is arround 230 hp max speed more than 120 m/h (thats the limit on speedometer runs faster than that, how much i have no idea) still able to make a run on 1/4 mille on 14.5 secs and be able to use it on highway as a normal car..

Is this possible? and what I will need thinking that cost wont be to much trouble.

I already destroy at last 4 engines on this car and 5 gear boxes so i was thinking about on the next time and make it electric sounds like a good idea.

Thanks in advance and sorry for my bad english.


----------



## emillkim (Sep 27, 2012)

*Re: I want to build an EV! Where do I start?*

My name is Emill.


I have a 1971 honda n600. It's about the size of a mini and probably weighs about the same

I have zero experience with electronics and motors but have a friend who owns a honda garage and machine shop.

My hopeful desired range is 60 miles 

My budget would be ideally on the cheap. I'm going to try to do all the labor myself. What can $8000 do for me? What would be a realistic budget?

Thanks everyone. Sorry if I'm just living a fools dream.

Emill


----------



## Yabert (Feb 7, 2010)

*Re: I want to build an EV! Where do I start?*

Hi Emill
It's not a dream. 
With such little car and a limited power requirement your goal is reachable. But keep in mind you will need 4-5K$ just for the battery to do 60 miles. Add 2-4K$ for the rest of component needs to do a nice 72v conversion. Putting all those battery in the small car will be the major challenge.
You can start your own thread to receive more help.


----------



## Caps18 (Jun 8, 2008)

*Re: I want to build an EV! Where do I start?*

Be sure to take some pictures. I don't know what a n600 is.


----------



## quattrogreg (Oct 5, 2012)

*Re: I want to build an EV! Where do I start?*

Hey, 
I'm Greg
I want to make an electric Audi 4000 QUATTRO (1987)
I live in Boulder, Colorado
I have been interning at a auto repair shop for the past two years so I am fairly confident with working with cars and welding/fab.
I would like to get at least a 30 mile range to start with (with the possibility of adding more batteries later to extend range?)
I would like quick performance (acceleration) and the higher top speed the better. (highway 75+mph?)
I was thinking DC but wouldn't be apposed to AC if the pros outweigh the cons.
I want to stick with the stock 5-speed manual Quattro (AWD) transmission that is in the car, and I want to retain the AWD (I am well aware that AWD has much higher power loss through drivetrain that FWD or RWD but i need to keep it intact in this project) 
what size motor do I need? The car has a fairly high curb weight 2824 lbs, but much of that will be lost upon removal of the cast iron 5 cylinder etc.
Here is a link to a spec site of my car: http://www.audiworld.com/model/4000/87-4000.shtml
I was thinking about a 5 grand budget for this give or take.
Thanks in advance!


----------



## dtbaker (Jan 5, 2008)

*Re: I want to build an EV! Where do I start?*



quattrogreg said:


> Hey,
> I'm Greg
> I want to make an electric Audi 4000 QUATTRO (1987)
> I live in Boulder, Colorado
> ...


you are lucky to have a great retailer in your hometown.... take a visit down to EvolveElectrics on 28th street! Your conversion should be fun, but budget won't cut it. you're going to need closer to $15k even with your relatively modest range requirement. 

warp9 motor (DC), soliton jr or zilla controller, 156v (48 x 100ah LiFePO4 cells) would be a reasonable place to start.


----------



## dtrip (Dec 12, 2012)

*Re: I want to build an EV! Where do I start?*

Hello, 
My name is Dimitris and I live in Santorini, Greece,

I am planning to build an electric reverse-trike, based on a boat trailer + a steering system + a motorcycle's rear wheel arm, as displayed. 

Some people have advised to build the frame myself (instead of the trailer). I am considering it, since I thought it would be difficult but they reassured its not. 

Requirements are

1. Two seat
2. 30 miles range (54 km)
3. Reasonable speed for rural roads (40 mph, 72 kmh) would be enough\
4. Total weight of vehicle ready to go is calculated at 600 kg
5. Budget is 4000 Euros (it was 2000, but I just doubled it !!!  ) 

I am planning to power this with a 10 kW motor which should provide some fun too. For a battery plant, I am thinking of using eight of those: 

http://batterypark.gr/prod.php?pr=265

These are 12V 115 Ah each, therefore I get 96 Volts, 11 kWh capacity, for 1812 Euros. That sounds decent to me, what do you guys think ? Im only worried for the weight, 32 kg each --> 256 kg total (565 lbs) Perhaps I could do away with only six of them ? But that would yield only 72 Volts. Are those enough for 10 kW motor ? 

Some people have advised to use lithium batteries but I can not find any decent one. Any links ? 

I have no idea what to use for a motor/controller. Still researching. Please advise for one 10 kW motor. Its funny how some manufacturers do not even mention the power that their motors output! 

Well this is it for now. Thanks for putting up with me. Please confirm the above battery pack is ok and advise on what motor goes well with it.


----------



## ricklearned (Mar 3, 2012)

*Re: I want to build an EV! Where do I start?*



Caps18 said:


> Be sure to take some pictures. I don't know what a n600 is.


A google search found this pictiure. If I remember correctly they are a little larger than the original Mini.


----------



## ToyXCAB89 (Oct 6, 2012)

*Re: I want to build an EV! Where do I start?*

I am in the planning stage of my EV and I live in Hawaii: I would like to convert my 1989 Toy pickup XCAB to electric. I would like to get 70 miles useable on a charge, and 60 MPH. My daily commute is 17 miles to work at 60 90% of the way. 17 miles back about 40 miles. My son has practice another 10 miles. On the weekend my son has games sometimes 60 miles. 
I am a Ground Power Mech for 33 years (Engines, Hydrau, Generators) Fab Okay. I would like to do a DC Sys homemade Controller.


----------



## mrsplash (Jan 1, 2013)

*Re: I want to build an EV! Where do I start?*

i have bought a brox compact which is a human pedalled delivery vehicle which has a cargo box on the back it has a payload of 75kgs i am looking to keep the pedal system working and incorporate a 48 volt 1000w motor i will need 4 12 volt batteries and i am unsure of ah rating the vehicle will weigh 250 kgs and i would like a range of 16 miles ( i live on the isle of man which is hilly ) could anyone give me some basic calcs and advise on battery type i.e agm or gel etc i am looking at an 11 amp 5 stage charger thanks stuart


----------



## njloof (Nov 21, 2011)

mrsplash said:


> i have bought a brox compact which is a human pedalled delivery vehicle which has a cargo box on the back it has a payload of 75kgs i am looking to keep the pedal system working and incorporate a 48 volt 1000w motor i will need 4 12 volt batteries and i am unsure of ah rating the vehicle will weigh 250 kgs and i would like a range of 16 miles ( i live on the isle of man which is hilly ) could anyone give me some basic calcs and advise on battery type i.e agm or gel etc i am looking at an 11 amp 5 stage charger thanks stuart


I converted a Schwinn Sting-Ray with a 48V AC motor a few years back. I have a 10 mile commute and battery choice makes a big difference (me + bike is ~150 kg); the return trip is slightly uphill the whole way and I have to pedal or the battery won't make the trip. I definitely recommend lithium over lead, which couldn't go the distance at the current needed. Headway Headquarters makes great 48V packs, or sells kits if you want the fun of assembling it yourself.


----------



## darren (Jan 3, 2013)

*Re: I want to build an EV! Where do I start?*

Hi i'm totally new to this in fact this morning on the way to work i was working out a v8 engine conversion for my RX8 now im sold on electric but i have no idea how to work out motor size or controllers obviously batteries will depend on this choice. I will use the original gearbox i think and i will be looking for range rather than all out power. So now its all down to learning something new


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## dtrip (Dec 12, 2012)

*Re: I want to build an EV! Where do I start?*



mrsplash said:


> i have bought a brox compact which is a human pedalled delivery vehicle which has a cargo box on the back it has a payload of 75kgs i am looking to keep the pedal system working and incorporate a 48 volt 1000w motor i will need 4 12 volt batteries and i am unsure of ah rating the vehicle will weigh 250 kgs and i would like a range of 16 miles ( i live on the isle of man which is hilly ) could anyone give me some basic calcs and advise on battery type i.e agm or gel etc i am looking at an 11 amp 5 stage charger thanks stuart


Im just a newbie as well (have not built anything yet), but in theory it goes like this: 

48 Volt 1000 Watt motor, means 1000/48 = about 20 Amps at max power.
That's something that most batteries will handle, so you need not worry about it. 

There are 3,2 V lithium cells with good weight to capacity ratio. 
They are about 10 Ah each. They cost about 20 each. Weight 330 gr each
(0,73 lbs) 

Example: 
http://stores.headway-headquarters.com/-strse-1/lifepo4-Headway-batteries%2C-Electric/Detail.bok?category=BATTERIES

EDIT: If you buy 15 of them and put them in series, then you get 48 Volts and a total of 10 Ah on them (EDIT: Ah stays the same) . If your motor works full throttle it will consume 20 Amps, therefore this pack is enough for your motor to drive full throttle for half an hour. 

This pack will cost $300 and weight 5 kg (11 lbs). 

Im not an expert but I think the above are true. Please double check with a really knowledgable person before buying anything.


----------



## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

*Re: I want to build an EV! Where do I start?*



dtrip said:


> I
> 
> If you buy 15 of them and put them in series, then you get 48 Volts and a total of 150 Ah on them. If your motor works full throttle it will consume 20 Amps, therefore this pack is enough for your motor to drive full throttle for 7,5 hours.
> 
> ...



Err No - unfortunately you add the voltages but the Ah remains the same
so you get 48v but only 10Ah,

To get 150Ah and 48v you would need 15 x 15 cells - which would blow away your weight and dollar budget


----------



## dtrip (Dec 12, 2012)

*Re: I want to build an EV! Where do I start?*



Duncan said:


> Err No - unfortunately you add the voltages but the Ah remains the same
> so you get 48v but only 10Ah,
> 
> To get 150Ah and 48v you would need 15 x 15 cells - which would blow away your weight and dollar budget



Oops! you are right, my fault, sorry. 

I edited the previous post.


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## arinbasu (Jan 15, 2013)

*Planning a 1997 Toyota RAV4 conversion*

Hi All,
My toyota RAV4 (1997 four wheel drive model) recently broke down and I realized that I need to replace the motor. The car's sitting on the garage and I want to convert it to an electric vehicle. , is this a good idea?


My skill level with auto mechanics and fabrication is very basic, I have never ever changed oil but I generally know the motor parts and can possibly use some tools. I have a great friend who is an engineer, and he is interested to share his expertise in the repair.
I am hoping to get around 50 miles a charge (I live in rural town and may commute with this to town about 50 kilometer away). 
I really do not have much expectation from this car with respect to performance, and I am willing to spend time and money after it. It will be a DIY project and I want to give it a try. I am willing to learn on the way and give it my best.
Can you tell me if this is a good project to start? I have started reading books and watching videos and getting quite excited about the possibilities.


Arin


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## johnsiddle (Jun 22, 2011)

*Re: Planning a 1997 Toyota RAV4 conversion*



arinbasu said:


> Hi All,
> My toyota RAV4 (1997 four wheel drive model) recently broke down and I realized that I need to replace the motor. The car's sitting on the garage and I want to convert it to an electric vehicle. , is this a good idea?
> 
> 
> ...


It sounds like an incredibly good project to start. My project is nearing the end and I just cant wait to get on the road with it.
Just read all you can on here and on EV Modder, you will learn all you need to know and then keep an eye on fleebay and such for suitable bits.... motors etc.
Good luck


----------



## Ziggythewiz (May 16, 2010)

*Re: Sales*

Why is the noob thread titled Sales and in the vendor forum?


----------



## DangrousDave20 (Aug 5, 2013)

*Re: Sales*

How's it going everybody? One of my work buddies (who recently purchased a new car) found out today that he needs to get rid of his 2000 Kia Sephia because he's not allowed to have 2 cars where he lives. Otherwise it's going to be towed. He says the engine has bad seals and is pretty much shot and he's probably just going to junk it for like 200 bucks. I instantly had a brainstorm that maybe this car would be a perfect candidate to become an electric vehicle. 

At this point I might as well confess that I have a serious problem. I'm pretty sure I have extreme OCD or something because one of the things I'm just absolutely mad about is the whole electric car revolution going on right now. That being said, if I have $72,000 laying around I would just buy a Tesla Model S since I seriously think it's the greatest thing to happen to mankind since the PB and J sandwich. 

So here's my query for anyone out there who would like to express an opinion. Should I offer him 200 bucks for the car and take on this project head on? I'm 28 yrs old with a bachelors degree in Industrial Technology and a minor in business. I'm employed as Assistant Engineer at a cosmeceutical production plant here in Illinois and I have fairly decent mechanical background. I love taking things apart and learning how things work. I'm not looking to get a ton of range out of the car. I only live about 1 mile from where I work right now so maybe 50-60 miles of range would be plenty. If anyone has already done this project or has any knowledge on the extent of it I would love to hear your entire story please. Thanks


----------



## Caps18 (Jun 8, 2008)

*Re: Sales*

Do some research into that car and if it will be easy to convert. Just because a car is cheap, doesn't mean that it is good. I've spent more time restoring my vehicle than actually converting it.....

And at the end of the day, will you want to be driving this car for the next 10 years?

Also, look into how much money it will cost to buy all of the components needed for this conversion. Now, if you do a 72V system, it won't have much power at all, but it might be able to be done cheaply. If you go 108-120V, then it starts getting pricey. And by that I mean, why not spend a few thousand dollars to convert a better car? Take a look at what $3,000 will buy you on autotrader.com. You can get a BMW that will be impressive and probably hold up better.

And that $3,000 is cheap compared to the $5,000 in batteries, $2,000 motor, $2,000 controller, $1,500 charger, battery box, wires, pumps, etc...


----------



## goingelectric (Aug 14, 2013)

Hi. hope all you genius's are well!

As of recent i am suddenly fixated on driving a electric powered vehicle that looks awesome.

I will elaborate in a bit more detail another time, this just serves as a basic introduction to get you guys ready for my nagging questions later!

So i am in the vehicle industry (sales), I basically assess motor vehicles for vehicle dealerships "in a nut shell". 

I have very basic knowledge on motor mechanics and absolutely NO knowledge on electrical components! So terms like AC, DC, watts, amps etc baffle me! 

Another HUGE set back is that i am in Cape Town South Africa, Ebay and the likes wont work for me "period"! I literally have to hunt for parts and components. We dont have EV groups and meetings! i know of ONE guy that shares a common interest and his on the otherside of the country.

One advantage is that i am able to find a donor car quite easily, Disadvantage is that i cant really afford it. Nevertheless i am a FAST learner and I WILL drive a battery powered vehicle.

Right now i have a "Renault Megane 1.9DCI 2005 model 6 Speed Manual" standing in my drive way, the car is really neat and pretty much in showroom condition so i dont have to worry about rust or restoring anything, problem is that it has a bearing knock ): so that engine is coming out eitherway. "Renault" is not my favorite brand because of maintenance and poor electronics but I chose the car because it was cheap and i like the shape.

This is my plan of action:
To afford the donor car "as a project" i have to sell whatever mechanical parts i can.

I kinda need to know what mechanical parts I DONT NEED, I know the engine, radiators, petrol tank is useless in a electric vehicle but what am i missing? I would like to strip these parts out myself so i can get the feeling of grease in my nails!

Also this vehicle as it is totally relies on electrics, nothing is mechanical. You start the car with a card key, wipers, headlights, handbrakes is automatic. boot and drivers door cant open with a key, the entire cluster is electronic/digital. Its fitted with Power steering, AC, ABS, Airbags, Electric windows, electric mirrors etc etc.

Would this be a reasonable car to start a EV project with or am i setting my sights too high?

Im really not attached to the car yet so please dont be shy, i could easily sell the vehicle and look for something else but man this car is sooo pretty  even if i have to throw out all the crap and make a dashboard outve cardboard i would still be happy.


As far as my goals:

Im not looking to gain that much, the more the merrier but really, if i can drive around the block 4 or 5 times on battery power then ill be happy.

I think i would be happy with maybe 80km/h MAX and maybe a range of 30km or so. By the way, In SA we use " Km's " opposed to "MILEs"

For me its not about commuting in an EV, i would just like to build something this awesome consider it a learning experience for now.

I am familiar with "googling" but i find it hard to understand the terms and diagrams used, please refer to some material in thats simpler to understand, i dont only want to build an EV, I would like to understand how all these components work.

For the record, I do have an uncle whos a engineer, his the guy who makes the things you cant buy so im guessing he would be a help somewhere along the line. I just need to get on his good side!

Im managed to put some feelers out there with regards to a forklift technician who can maybe put me in touch with a forklift motor (Thats how we roll in SA!) Im hoping to find someone who could explain the inner workings to be in a bit more detail.

Really excellent work you guys have done so far! its a pity I only came across this site today! I coulve been rocking my EV and picking up chicks already!


Ill post an image of the Renault as soon as i figure out how


----------



## Kmaxwell (Sep 7, 2013)

New to the site, lots of experience as an auto tech and been working for a golf cart manufacturer for 13 yrs now. 
Looking to build an ev and have a 1997 Toyota rav4 5 speed. Any suggestions or should I find a different car to start with?


----------



## KayZee2405 (Feb 25, 2014)

Hello me name is kylin,

i'm pretty more than average when it comes to cars and i love electrics lol.

things i do: i work on cars, computers, smart phones, wood working, wiring things up, and drum brakes are a favorite for me. i love to add things to my cars and, ive done a lot with it reading wiring diagrams. i love doing and getting something to work the way i planned it to is really awesome for me, i once wired up digital gauges up non of the wire colors matched lol but in the end everything worked the way it should. i have also put about 15 interior lights in a kia and make them work with the doors (i know thats simple). ive done a lot of car stereos and i understand watts and somewhat amp and amp hour....sorry this is so long. getting to the point im a bit of a nerd

the project i wanna do:
im looking into getting a second car (again) and making it the way i like it. original plan was to find a car and if it wasnt a 5 speed to swap it over to make it a 5 speed. thats easy about a long day and it can be done and i came across electric cars on youtube. while im looking for a car i keep thinking i can design something that could change the way things work in this world.

i want to design a car that is fully electric but requires no plug, or atleast very minimal or for emergancy use kinda thing. im very determined and ready to start but i know nothing about electric cars. ive never seen an motor that could power a car let a lone one that has a lot of power to make it fast

my projections:
1 get a car
2 i need info on how to get about 170hp out of a motor i will figure out how to hold the charge and maintain it i just need to know how to get the car to work 
3 promote it
4 get investors 
5 start my own auto company building these cars cause the big 3 arent willing to

i know the last 2 seem unrealistic but maybe i can do it im gonna try


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

No the last two are possible 

Number (2) however is completely impossible - need to learn some basic physics


----------



## AE92CorollaSydney (Apr 17, 2014)

Hello all,

Just wondering the virtues of making my front wheel drive 1991 AE92 Corolla into a rear wheel drive EV. Not looking to get too complicated so I was thinking this could be done using the rear axle and diff from an AE82 and going direct drive without gearbox etc.
Not looking for too much from the conversion, just a run around to work and back getting about 80 to 120 klms from a charge and only city driving with no long trips or great loads just good old fashioned stop start traffic and a possible top speed of 90 to 100 klm/H.
Has anyone already done such a conversion (Front Wheel Drive ICE to Rear Wheel EV) and if so could you please point me in the direction of the thread or web page. 
Mechanically and electrically I am very good and have maintained all my own cars my whole driving life so the work is no problem for me. Own all my own tools and have the space to work with.
I only take my car to a mechanic if I am
A) Feeling Lazy
B) He owes me a favour
C) Don't feel like getting my hands dirty
D) Cashed Up
Z) All of the above lol

Any info, suggestions or advice would be greatly appreciated


----------



## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

AE92, I am building a previously FWD ICE to RWD electric right now. Here is a link if you want to see if this is what you are interested in doing.

http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showthread.php/cadillac-eldorado-86066.html

The first few pages of it were planning, debating, and changing my mind about things, but a few pages in you can see the FWD to RWD conversion. Its not a corolla, but with this kind of chassis mod it probably doesn't make much difference.


----------



## sirwattsalot (Aug 27, 2012)

*Re: I want to build an EV! Where do I start?*

That would be a really great project! I have seen some really good examples of electric Mini Coopers that used hub motors in each wheel but there are other ways to go. You might need as much as 165 Ah to go 65 miles or 2.538 Ah per mile. I can't really say because, a lot depends on the type of motor and the total curb weight of the finished car. Most of us are using very expensive Lifepo4 cells, but there are new types of batteries showing up on the market that will be better and less expensive. It may take 1-5 years for the new batteries to go mainstream. Your top speed should not be a problem at all. My own Saturn car is heavier than a Mini, but I can top 40 miles with 36, 100 Ah Lifepo4 cells and I can drive at 72 mph without any trouble. The batteries produce 123.4 volts and I use an AC-50, 3 phase motor that is 90% efficient. I can fully charge the car in 8 hours and 45 min. I have ~ $15,000 in the car. I could have done it all for less if I had any idea what I was doing when I started. However, the greatest value is the experience that you get out of doing it. Driving your finished car is priceless.


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## Vinny App (Jun 10, 2014)

I had a friend who converted a Mini Cooper. It can totally be done!


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## RandyFl (Jun 24, 2014)

24 June 14 / 09:41:00

Hello All
I too... am interested in converting my 2002 Toyota Corolla 4 cylinder 1.8L automatic CE sedan to electric...

My question is an automatic convertible?

Regards
RandyFL


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## brogdon (Aug 13, 2014)

okay so here it goes I have a 2003 F 350 4 door 4 wheel drive Dooley what a beast right I would like to make a diesel electric hybrid. the ice engine is a 5 9 Cummins with an Allison 6-speed behind it I would like to remove the transfer case and run an electric motor or drive unit the power of the front set of differentials.because it is hi bird in their current setup will get about 19 miles per gallon I would like to attain 35mpg. the distance i plan to drive is less than 40 miles a day. I would like to start out using full electric in town probably less than 3 miles couple stop signs and lights and then once I get up to speed on highway trigger the ice engine to take over cutting the power to the front motor and letting it go to regen while I'm driving 10 miles down the highway and then go back to ev mode for the last mile.then do the reverse in the evening and charge overnight. The truck weighs 8000 lbs. The only other time electric will be used is in 4x4 mode to get out of trouble, not to play. I am a full fledge mechanic with 20 years experience and i have all the fabrication tools and ability time is not an issue my only constraints are budget. so what do you all think? Thanks for the input.


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## ClintK (Apr 27, 2008)

brogdon said:


> okay so here it goes I have a 2003 F 350 4 door 4 wheel drive Dooley what a beast right I would like to make a diesel electric hybrid.


Sounds like a lot of fun, but I think you'll find your truck weighs too much to be a practical conversion. (I went the opposite direction, my car weighs less than 1800 pounds.)

I recommend trying to find / price a consumer purchasable DC or AC motor that can pull 8000 pounds. That may an insurmountable road block for your conversion. I'm curious if they exist (at prices a consumer can afford anyways)!

There are EV calculators and rules-of-thumb recommendations for weight of vehicle vs motors out there. I don't have those links handy, but I recommend tracking some of those down. I'm guessing even an 11" DC motor tops out at 5000 lbs recommended maximum.


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## ken will (Dec 19, 2009)

brogdon said:


> okay so here it goes I have a 2003 F 350 4 door 4 wheel drive Dooley what a beast right


If you live near "Marquette College of Engineering" check out this 350

http://www.diyelectriccar.com/garage/cars/22


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## TorontoEV (Jul 26, 2014)

Hey All!
I have very little automotive experience but have done loads of research and have a question; Factory Five makes lovely kit vehicles, and my grand idea was, rather than convert an already existing car, to build one from the AC Cobra replica kit, I would love to get 100+ miles out of it, realistically, I would need only 100 for my daily commute, so 120 to keep myself safe. 
This is a gift to myself, so I would be looking to keep it at reasonably, under $35,000 and would love to make it AC. Since the kit will be around 2200 pounds (with an ICE engine and what not) an HPEVs AC-50 Motor would be perfect, some Calb batteries, etc. Is this realistic?


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## ken will (Dec 19, 2009)

TorontoEV said:


> Hey All!
> I have very little automotive experience but have done loads of research and have a question; Factory Five makes lovely kit vehicles, and my grand idea was, rather than convert an already existing car, to build one from the AC Cobra replica kit, I would love to get 100+ miles out of it, realistically, I would need only 100 for my daily commute, so 120 to keep myself safe.
> This is a gift to myself, so I would be looking to keep it at reasonably, under $35,000 and would love to make it AC. Since the kit will be around 2200 pounds (with an ICE engine and what not) an HPEVs AC-50 Motor would be perfect, some Calb batteries, etc. Is this realistic?


 Check with Factory Five. They tried electric in one of their kits,(it might have been their 33 Ford not the Cobra).


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## Joe Chambers (Aug 30, 2014)

Has anyone used a PT Cruiser yet?


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## Electric Man (Sep 27, 2014)

Awesome resource. I checked out the site and it looks pretty good. Thanks for sharing. I was wondering if there are any videos to go along with the instructions?


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## sirwattsalot (Aug 27, 2012)

Leave room in the trunk for a few bags of groceries.


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## miev 1 (Jan 22, 2015)

*Re: I want to build an EV! Where do I start?*



Skemcin said:


> One of the best buys you can find that make a great conversion is a Porsche 924. Its an aerodynamic vehicle that with an ICE got 30 mpg. Once you pull the ICE and related items, you'd be starting with a curb weight of just around 2,000 lbs. You can pull the torque tube and save more weight there if you mount your motor directly to the gear box (which is mounted in the rear of this car).
> 
> The only place you need to get creative is the battery placement. If you pull the rear seat and make a hinged lid that lays flat with the rear trunk area, you can put all your controls there - leaving the entire engine bay to configure your battery box(es).
> 
> You can get a 924 for less than $1,000 that might need minor cosmetic work. These cars are easy to work on and several have been converted already. If I had the budget in time, I'd be converting one of the ones I own.


I was thinking of either a 944 ( more abundant around me) or a Mustang. I have seen a few blogs on the 944 and it is peeking my interest. Especially mounting motor direct to gear box. Have to read more on that.

I actually found a perfect one, engine is already out, but is an 86. I was trying to have one with airbags, which came out in '87. How important do you think that is? A friend of my Dad's was hit in his '76 Celica and almost died cause it offered no protection at all. 

What do you think?
airbags or no?
Porsche or Ford?


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## Russ Binder (Aug 4, 2015)

*Re: I want to build an EV! Where do I start?*



sotomikes said:


> What do you guys think about converting a 2002 mini cooper ? I have been doing a lot of reading and I am thinking of this first project. I am wondering what I would need to make this car go 65+ miles on a charge and 65+ mph. What do you guys think? any help would be great.


I have just about all you need to do a Mini, if you're still interested. The parts are from the BMW Mini-E's. Contact me if you are still considering this.


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## CrazyAl (May 9, 2011)

*Re: I want to build an EV! Where do I start?*



miev 1 said:


> I was thinking of either a 944 ( more abundant around me) or a Mustang. I have seen a few blogs on the 944 and it is peeking my interest. Especially mounting motor direct to gear box. Have to read more on that.
> 
> I actually found a perfect one, engine is already out, but is an 86. I was trying to have one with airbags, which came out in '87. How important do you think that is? A friend of my Dad's was hit in his '76 Celica and almost died cause it offered no protection at all.
> 
> ...


With the Porsche 924/944 (and I think the 968), the gear box (transaxle) is at the back and the engine is in the front. There is a shaft (I think it is called a Torque Tube, but don't quote me on it) from engine to gearbox. This shaft runs at engine speed and spins inside the tunnel.

With the Porsche 911/912/356 and a few others, the engine is in the back and bolts directly to the gear box which is also in the back.

In terms of safety, I can't really comment, but I came across http://rennlist.com/forums/924-931-944-951-968-forum/402247-porsche-944-crashworthy.html . Perhaps, you can ask them the air bag question.

If you are trying to choose between a Porsche or a Ford, you have to ask yourself several questions such as:
* what car will make you happy?
* how easy is it to get parts etc?
* will it do what you want it to do?
* what kits are available?
* With the 944, find out if you can get a rear window easily and at a reasonable price OR if someone can make one for you at a reasonable price.

With the Porsche, some owners have told me that they get their parts from http://www.pelicanparts.com . If you need more links, I may be able to dig up a list of links for parts a 944 owner sent me a few years ago.

At the end of the day, you want to convert a car that you will love to drive and when things go wrong during and after your conversion, that you will still be motivated to solve the problems and get it rectified.


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## HugoW (Aug 8, 2015)

*Re: I want to build an EV! Where do I start?*

Hi,

first post here after a lot of lurking around... I am from the Netherlands and I am looking into making an EV for the daily commute. I need about 30 miles radius, but I need about 60mph in the motorway for most of the journey. I would love a BMW E30 as the base car since I love them and know them very well. Would these specs be do-able on a budget, say a 72V system with a DIY DC controller and old fork lift truck motor?

I already found ways to electrify the power brakes and power steering of the car, I am looking into electrifying the heater and maybe add LED lighting all around so running with lights on doesn't eat too much battery. Also need to look into an efficient 72 - 12V converter, must be available.

I would also consider running a 144V system, just to manage the amps. I found a fairly simple DIY controller on this forum that can handle 500 amps, at this voltage I should have about 70kW full power, that should be plenty.

Anyone hazzard a guess at how much power I will consume running 60mph for half an hour? The accual commute it slightly less and it is not all motor way, but just to be save.

Any advice / good links are welcome,
Cheers,

Hugo


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## CrazyAl (May 9, 2011)

*Re: I want to build an EV! Where do I start?*



HugoW said:


> Hi,
> 
> first post here after a lot of lurking around... I am from the Netherlands and I am looking into making an EV for the daily commute. I need about 30 miles radius, but I need about 60mph in the motorway for most of the journey. I would love a BMW E30 as the base car since I love them and know them very well. Would these specs be do-able on a budget, say a 72V system with a DIY DC controller and old fork lift truck motor?
> 
> ...


Hi,

Just to clarify, do you need 30 miles range or 60 miles range?
Also, what batteries do you want to use? Also, you will want to factor in the effect of cold weather on batteries which affects your range.
BMW E30 - nice car.

What are the specs of the fork lift motor you are planning to use? 
72 volts is probably a bit low if you want to achieve highway speeds.

In terms of energy usage, I would guess that within town, a converted E30 would consume around 250Wh/mile to 350Wh/mile and there are many factors that affect this figure. If one drives like a boy racer, expect the energy usage to dramatically increase. 

At this stage, I would not know the energy usage at 60mph.

Check out http://evalbum.com/type/BMW/32 for examples of BMW electric conversions.


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## HugoW (Aug 8, 2015)

*Re: I want to build an EV! Where do I start?*

Hi,

thanks for the reply and the link. Very useful. 

The commute is 38km, so with 30 miles I have a bit of margin. I would like to charge when I am at the office, electric charger poles are becoming more comon around here anyway. And since I will be at the office for 9 or more hours a day anyway, it seems logical to charge there.

I like to push the throttle, but not on the daily commute. I have been reading a lot today, and it seems AC motors and regenerative breaking are a lot more comon than I thought, less out of reach.

I have no parts in mind yet. I would like to find a DIY controller project I can do over the winter, and search for a motor to match. Cost wise I think I should start with the old lead-acid batteries. 144V is probably the way to go. I was also thinking about A123 cells, but I think I need about 10,000 of those soldered together to make it work. Not a workable option. I use LiPos for my RC hobby, but also I think those will be too expensive and have a limited life time / number of cycles.

All info is welcome, I will contact some of the builders in the link you gave. I like to work with numbers.

Cheers,

Hugo


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## CrazyAl (May 9, 2011)

*Re: I want to build an EV! Where do I start?*



HugoW said:


> Cost wise I think I should start with the old lead-acid batteries. 144V is probably the way to go. I was also thinking about A123 cells, but I think I need about 10,000 of those soldered together to make it work. Not a workable option. I use LiPos for my RC hobby, but also I think those will be too expensive and have a limited life time / number of cycles.


With lead acid batteries you will need to factor in the Peukert effect which is basically a measure of the true capacity of a battery. The true capacity for lead acid batteries is rather poor which means you have to buy twice as many batteries than calculated.

When assembling an A123 pack, check out http://www.customevperformance.com/p/8777366/joey-a123-pouch-tray.html & http://www.customevperformance.com/p/8777368/joey-busbar.html I think prices are in Australian dollars.


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## HugoW (Aug 8, 2015)

*Re: I want to build an EV! Where do I start?*

Great info, thanks. I have dug through the BMW E30 projects on the EV album site and made this little list:










It seems the lead acids indeed don't deliver. I especially like Mr. Reeson's project, and I think I could do with half his range! I must look into charging and balancing more closely, though, this is something the lead acids are much more easy with handling wise.

Cheers,

Hugo


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## HugoW (Aug 8, 2015)

*Re: I want to build an EV! Where do I start?*

Hmmm, I must be missing something...

I found this:
http://nl.aliexpress.com/store/prod...or-Led/535200_32414884075.html?storeId=535200

That is 8,8Ah @ 3,7V for 2 bucks.
To make 88Ah (to run 44 miles, see list above) I need 10 cells parrallel.
To make 144 V I need to put 40 in series.
So 400 cells at 2 bucks each makes 800 bucks (plus a lot of work) I have all the capacity I need?!?

Or do the Li-Ions have problems I am not aware of? I know about balancing the cells and I have read about cooling / temp controlling them to avoid fire hazard, I think those are manageble.

Cheers,

Hugo


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

*Re: I want to build an EV! Where do I start?*

Hi Hugo

You know what they say - if it seems too good to be true...

Those are about 1/10th the "usual" price 

I suggest you try and order a few to test
Then let us all know what you find


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## HugoW (Aug 8, 2015)

*Re: I want to build an EV! Where do I start?*

Well, I might just do that. What would be a sensible way to test them? I have my sights on the 500A ReVolt controller, so a 50A (10 cells parallel making 500A) test for 8 minutes (using 6,67Ah = 75% of the capacity)? Measure cell temp, and repeat a lot of times? I need a way to burn 200 Watts...

As a start I requested the datasheet from the seller. Let's see what we get.

Hugo


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## HugoW (Aug 8, 2015)

http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb/showthread.php?316888-Fake-Ultrafire-18650-battery-warning

Ok, never mind. I meanwhile found half a dozen of these reviews....

Hugo


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## jackus (Dec 16, 2011)

I am new to this site and thinking to convert my classic F100 pickup. Need insite, advice. Willing sale mechanical parts to help pay for the conversion. Need 200 mile range. Would like four wheel hub motors with front ones kicking in for passing.


https://www.facebook.com/jack.henso...22181036948.1073741833.100000075235235&type=3


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## madderscience (Jun 28, 2008)

200 mile range (presumably, at 60mph or so) in a vintage F100 is going to require a very large and expensive battery pack. The very aerodynamic Tesla model S 90 can get about 300 miles on a 90kwh pack. The aerodynamics on your truck are going to be much worse, you would probably be looking at optimistically, half the efficiency. 

So if you were able to transplant the drivetrain from a Model S into your truck, you would probably have about a 150 mile range. If driven more slowly, like 45-50mph, it might be able to do the 200 miles though. 

As for hub motors, Nothing exists in the hobby/DIY space that can do it. Instead, Find a good sized (11" minimum, or 13" diameter DC motor or a large Siemens AC unit, and either use a 3spd stick or direct drive a part time 4wd transfer case. Optimize the axle ratios, probably 4.77 or 5.xx. Run locking hubs on the front axle so that you can disconnect the entire front half of the drivetrain. Put full synthetic non-hypoid gear oil in everything and run narrow highway tread tires, like 235/85r16's. A belly pan would probably help.

Best example I know in my local EV club: F250 supercab 4x4, 60kwh battery (2.5 nissan leaf cells) 6000lbs, dual (siamese) 9" motors, 70 mile range at 60mph.


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## Russ Binder (Aug 4, 2015)

Would you rather something affordable that will work?


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## m_bhupal (Apr 27, 2016)

Hi friends , i am mohan bhupal from india , chennai the so called Detroit of india, i dont own a car yet but i am sure that i dont want a gas car. I want to convert a hatch back to electric but have not decided which model as the"donor car" with kerb weight of 1000kgs and gross weight of 1500kgs after conversation , it will be a city comute car and a to office and back car,may be occational gradient of about 5 degrees ,max speed of 70 kms / hour and range of 100 kms/charge. I would like to have AC,Air Bags and ABS.

I am very intrested in an AC motor system and suitable controller and required battery pack.

I am a diy person but have little hands on mechanical work so i plan on using experianced workers for all my work but under my instruction.

I require your best wishes and advices for my projects.


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## PStechPaul (May 1, 2012)

I wish you good luck and success. Here is an EV Calculator that can help with figuring power and torque needed for various weights, speeds, and acceleration or slope:

http://enginuitysystems.com/EVCalculator.htm


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## diver653 (Sep 20, 2011)

I'm no help on AC motors but there is a forum here for AC motors. Good luck


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## rahulkentonn (May 15, 2016)

What are the cars that are easy to convert ?


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## lanzajj1 (Aug 25, 2016)

I have owned a yellow 1971 VW Beetle for the past 45 years which I have used as my daily driver. I now want to convert it to electric as I have other vehicles for long distance driving.

I have an electrical engineering background and have serviced most mechanical aspects of the VW for the past 45 years. I am still hoping to drive the electric conversion to work but probably not on the Interstate. The range per charge I am hoping for is 30 miles. I will have recharge capability at work. I am willing to spend $5,000 at least. I am considering a DC 72 volt system thinking that I could achieve maximum speeds in the 45-50 mph range.

Any suggestions would be welcomed!


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

Hi Lanz

There are two ways to go

Get a crashed Nissan Leaf and fit all of the ev bits into your vw

Get a DC motor and controller and the batteries from a Leaf or Chevy Volt and fit them to your vw


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## lanzajj1 (Aug 25, 2016)

Thanks. I did not think about using the batteries from a Leaf or Volt but will check with my local auto junk yards to see if this is a possibility.


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

Hi Lanz
There is a thread on using a Volt battery - and a discussion part way through on how to get one 
There is a clearing system for used auto parts in the USA they normally have batteries and you can navigate the maze to find one closest to you

http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showthread.php/2012-chevy-volt-battery-93101.html

I paid $1800 for mine - and got it shipped here!


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## lanzajj1 (Aug 25, 2016)

Not a bad price to get to New Zealand! I will take a look. Thanks.


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## Garth (Oct 1, 2016)

*I want to own an EV, I might just have to make it myself!*

Hi Im new to this forum. I want to own an EV and it may be that the best way to do this is to build one.

I will give you a few details to outline what Im thinking.

Some time ago I was inspired by Kiwiev Gavin Shoebridge (I’m also from New Zealand, Go Gav!)… and purchased his online eBook. 

For a short time I owned a Toyota Estema 2.4L 7 seater van and liked it except for its hunger for fuel. At the time I wondered about converting it to an EV.

I currently have the opportunity of getting a 1996 Estema, and because it is at the right price, wonder if it would be a good donor car for an EV project?

Other models were called the Lucida or the Previa (wide body) or the Tarago in Australia.

One reason for this is that I think there is plenty of room for batteries under the floor. I don’t know if this has been done and want any advice from anyone who has experience.

I wonder if a good idea would be to bolt an electric motor onto the existing auto trans, either using an external pump to keep the trans pressure up at standstill or simply ‘idling the electric motor’. 

The power steering needs to run, is it plausible to run an electric motor to spin the existing pump via belt drive? How about running the front ancillary drive system (Supplemental Accessory Drive System, or "SADS.") which is on these vans via an electric motor? This could be turned off when the vehicle is moving and only come on when low speed or stopped, even possibly used to power the ac although that is not necessarily a priority for me. Alternatively, is it possible to run the SADS off the front of the drive motor?

A vacuum pump for the brakes seems straight forward enough. 

I would like the van to be able to go 100km on a charge and up to 100km/h. It would mostly be used as an urban day runner, but occasional 50km (100km round trip) trips to other towns. Most of the use would be in basically flat terrain. 

In New Zealand at the moment you can buy a second hand 2011 Nissan Leaf for as low as NZ$16k (about US$11.6K). Im thinking its ok to spend 10 or 12K (about US$7-9k) to make the van a runner. Aside from the cost, I would like to have the experience of doing the conversion and include my son in on the project too. 

Im good with engineering and limited with battery knowledge, this means that I can ‘see’ myself making this work using a 144v Lead Acid battery set up (maybe limited to 60km range) and so not reaching my 100km goal within a budget, but I know with some help I could learn and work safely with LiFePO4 batteries. 

So, in summary, 
1996 Toyota Estema EV conversion.
Use existing Auto Trans.
Run ancillaries off another electric motor.
Use 144v system with suitable batteries to achieve 60 (preferably 100km) range at up to 100km speeds.
Mainly used for urban flat daily commutes. 
Budget up to NZ$12k.

Please comment and offer any feedback. What do you think, am I dreaming? Do you think my goals are possible?

I am really interested to know if anyone out there has any experience with converting a pre 2000 Toyota Estema, Lucida, Previa or Tarago? Has anyone done this?

Thanks heaps and thanks Gavin for your inspiration! 

Garth.


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

*Re: I want to own an EV, I might just have to make it myself!*

Hi Garth
Where are you - I'm in Gore
I've just noticed - Hamilton - so I'm not going to be dropping over!

Forget Lead - its expensive here and 60km is more than you can get with lead! (more like 20 max)

Your best bet would be a crashed Leaf - BUT - you may not be able to get one
And the usual shippers seem to be wary of crashed hybrids/electrics

I got a Volt battery from the USA - total all up about $3,300NZ

There is a hot rod concern here in Gore that supplies both islands with hot rod stuff from California - they brought my battery over and another one that is being built into a BMW in Rolleston

Your project is doable - but the budget will be VERY tight


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## Garth (Oct 1, 2016)

Hi Duncan, thanks for your reply, hey, is there much ev conversion activity in New Zealand? Looking through these feeds it seems that there was lots of interest up to 4 or 5 years ago, then things have quietened down? Is it my imagination or are less people active in ev conversions now? 

Kind of funny, watching things change, for example when I purchased KiwiEV's e-book a few years ago, Musks Model S wasn't being produced... We are seeing an evolution taking place... cool!

So, you haven't heard of anyone converting an Estema?


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

Hi Garth
There is still some activity - probably more than before

Two things have changed 
(1) You can now get the parts to make a decent machine
(2) You can now buy a decent EV

A lot of the people who converted because they wanted an EV can just buy one
We are left with the "Hot Rodders" who want to convert

As far as your van is concerned - are you trying to "save money"? - or to build a fun project?

If it's "save money" - then it's not going to work! 
Any modified vehicle is always more expensive that the "use a decent old clunker" strategy

If it's a "fun project" then are you sure you want to convert an Estema?


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## Garth (Oct 1, 2016)

Duncan said:


> Hi Garth
> 
> As far as your van is concerned - are you trying to "save money"? - or to build a fun project?
> 
> ...


I want a cheap to run EV daily runner, and like the size, utility, versatility of the van. 

After the cost of the mods, what are the real world running, maintenance costs? I expect main electrics are very reliable, but how long do batteries last? I have seen Lead batteries dead after 500 cycles? What about LiFePO4? After paying for these, how long will they last?

Why do you say "any modified vehicle is always more expensive..." It is obvious that it costs a lot to pump money into an old car to convert it and its easy to blow out on the budget, but what i mean is after the build, the ongoing running costs.

Sorry, obviously im a novice at this, also, i would probably find all these answers if i go through more threads on this forum, but i would really like to talk to someone with first hand experience.


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## algreen (Oct 29, 2015)

TorontoEV said:


> Hey All!
> I have very little automotive experience but have done loads of research and have a question; Factory Five makes lovely kit vehicles, and my grand idea was, rather than convert an already existing car, to build one from the AC Cobra replica kit, I would love to get 100+ miles out of it, realistically, I would need only 100 for my daily commute, so 120 to keep myself safe.
> This is a gift to myself, so I would be looking to keep it at reasonably, under $35,000 and would love to make it AC. Since the kit will be around 2200 pounds (with an ICE engine and what not) an HPEVs AC-50 Motor would be perfect, some Calb batteries, etc. Is this realistic?


That's my dream build too. This guy did it and documented step-by-step. 
https://youtu.be/5dPn5BT1-gI


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## adphil (Jan 4, 2017)

Hi , I want to convert my 68 Karmann Ghia . I'm doing 65miles per day total travelling to work . I'm located in Quebec Canada so this car will be used in summer only . 
I manage a scrapyard for a living so access to auctions and scrap cars and parts is not a problem . I have a pretty good general knowledge of cars , access to very good mechanics and fabricators , shop time , tools and lift . 
I will be driving the Karmann Ghia at 120km /h ( 75miles/h) .
My question is simple ; will it be cheaper to buy a damaged ev at a car auction and adapt everything in my car or is it better to build everything from scratch ? I'm pretty new to ev vehicles but I've already converted a couple of gas car to diesel and numerous swaps at this point . Thanks in advance !


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## adphil (Jan 4, 2017)




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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

Hi adphil

Simplest would be to get hold of the bits and fit a DC motor and controller

Best (by a long way) (and probably cheapest) would be to get a crashed Nissan Leaf and fit all of the bits you need
As you have room I would advocate keeping absolutely everything of the Leaf until after you have your car up and working


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## adphil (Jan 4, 2017)

So the leaf is the cheapest /easiest option ? I will be on the hunt for a crashed one ! Any other make /model recommendation ? I have access also to government auction crash test , any upcoming model ( e golf comes to mind ) I should take a look at ?


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

Hi adphil
There are some people already using leaf bits - if you fine something unusual you may end up on your own!
I would worry not about the mechanical/electrical side but about the computer/software side

There seem to be two strategies
(1) - con the cars computers into thinking that they are still in the leaf
(2) - replace the motor controllers "brain" with your own 

(2) will probably give you a lot more power but loses all of the other functions
(1) could retain all of the charging and BMS stuff

If you were feeling adventurous how about a crashed Tesla?

The leaf approach is the best/cheapest - but not necessarily the easiest


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## adphil (Jan 4, 2017)

The tesla actually got me hooked on ev's . I'm not looking for the cheapest way nor the simplest .... Just looking for the best bang for the buck out there .project is not scheduled for next week , I still have a lot of planning / time ahead of me . My only question is , did someone was actually successful in a similar project ? Links to build thread ?


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

What will a crashed Tesla cost you? - it would make an awesome Karmann Ghia!

The Leaf would have a lot more power than the original - but a Tesla??

You probably would not be able to do the 
(1) - con the cars computers into thinking that they are still in the leaf/Tesla
I think that the Tesla is a bit more "secure" - oddly enough because it uses the internet to update

So you would have to go down (2)


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## adphil (Jan 4, 2017)

Tesla go for around 20k as I can see ( they are in auctions so it's hard to say ) I don't want to invest that kind of money for now . The leaf looks like a good choice . The upcoming bolt and the volt looks like they have a nice interesting range /power. Did anybody successfully implanted the complete setup in an older car ? I did some research but didn't saw any finished project.


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

This guy is putting a Leaf power-train in a Saab Sonnet (makes your Ghia look large) - don't know it he has finished yet

http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showthread.php?t=151458&highlight=sonnet


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## nucleus (May 18, 2012)

adphil said:


> Hi , I want to convert my 68 Karmann Ghia . I'm doing 65miles per day total travelling to work . I'm located in Quebec Canada so this car will be used in summer only .
> I manage a scrapyard for a living so access to auctions and scrap cars and parts is not a problem . I have a pretty good general knowledge of cars , access to very good mechanics and fabricators , shop time , tools and lift .
> I will be driving the Karmann Ghia at 120km /h ( 75miles/h) .
> My question is simple ; will it be cheaper to buy a damaged ev at a car auction and adapt everything in my car or is it better to build everything from scratch ? I'm pretty new to ev vehicles but I've already converted a couple of gas car to diesel and numerous swaps at this point . Thanks in advance !


If you are looking to save money, using Leaf or Volt or i3 or Tesla batteries is a must. 

The downside to using a OEM motor is that you would have to make your own adaptor, if you get an AC50 or a DC motor then you can get an adaptor for your VW transaxle off the shelf. EVWest and probably others sell them.

Jack and Brian of EVTV fame built a Ghia, so I would check out those episodes if you haven't yet. They did a nice job nicely using the stock style gauges and installing air conditioning.


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## adphil (Jan 4, 2017)

I just came back from the Mtl auto salon and I ve test drived a bolt , an i3 and a leaf . Age is showing in the technology of these three . E golf looks interesting but no pricing and no availability date for now . I think I'm going to try to get one and keep it in the family . transplant everything from the e golf to my Karmann . Only downside is j will have to wait that these become available in Canada


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## bimmerboy92 (Apr 5, 2017)

hey guys , ive been around cars since i was four i have a lot of experience with internal combustion engines for the past 5 years ive been doing a lot of performance car project turbocharging standalones suspension upgrades custom work , welding blah blah almost everything you can think off so my mechanical skills shouldn`t be an issue. My electrical skill on the other hand are good enough to diagnose faulty sensors , wire stuff in like ecus , make custom looms and etc . 
i want to build a bmw e46 estate ev as far as chassis i think there is a lot of room for all the components 
so my questions are where to start car is going to be used as a daily so maximum range will be nice and enough power to maybe match the lowest output petrol engine in that chassis 
i was wondering if a direct drive system is possible cuz the transmission tunnel is pretty big and will fit perfectly a very well sized motor keeping the low center of gravity for better handling and convenience for fitting more batteries in the engine bay stock fuel tank is about 65 liters and is under the back seat so is another good battery location with placement between the axles good balance again.
some stock parts weights for that vehicle 
engine 6 cylinder around 190kg 
gearbox 100kg 
full tank is about 75 kg 
any ideas and suggestions keeping in mind i want to do it on a budget and try and do most of the work myself even going in unkown waters, because i want to learn and maybe one day do it professionally conversions and etc .
in europe easy to find car is going ot be a nissan leaf 
as well as high voltage 78 96 forklifts if i go the dc route 

any ideas and suggestions is appreciated.

Thanks

excuse my poor writing, english is not my first language


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## Steven Wells (Apr 21, 2017)

adphil said:


> I just came back from the Mtl auto salon and I ve test drived a bolt , an i3 and a leaf . Age is showing in the technology of these three . E golf looks interesting but no pricing and no availability date for now . I think I'm going to try to get one and keep it in the family . transplant everything from the e golf to my Karmann . Only downside is j will have to wait that these become available in Canada


I'm looking into buying E golf myself, here are some stats I've found:

From $28,995
83 mi battery-only
20h at 110V, 3.7h at 220V, 0.5h at 440V
126 city / 105 highway
24.2 kWh 323 V lithium-ion


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## taoofbean (Apr 23, 2017)

*Want to build Porsche 356 Coupe with 120 mile range*

Howdy friends: I owned a BMW i3 for two years and loved it—fantastic driving car. I now am about to start building my own in a classic package.

I found a replica rolling body and frame and will use that as my base platform. Once the car arrives and I start, I will document the process. I am now in learn everything mode to see if I can build a high performer that has a better range than my 2014 BMW i3 (range was about 75 miles in electric on average with my driving pattern). *Any tips on what is the best electric motor we can buy these days, best battery packs available, and if there are any decent regen brake packages would be fantastic.*

I am fairly handy but never attempted anything this ambitious before.


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## uHades (May 2, 2017)

Hi to everone!

I'm a newbie on this, and I love if you guys recomend some literature. 
I,m a brasilian, and I like to make a eletric car from scratch. My ambition is to do a tricicle for 3 persons, with cabin, and every confort itens:

air conditioned;
eletric windows;
Seagulf doors;
computers (car panel, informative and entertaiment (lots of then)); 
and others gadget you can recomend;

I think in a autonomy about a 200 km, and using a guided system like fly-by-wire.

Waiting your guide lines!

Regards!

uHades


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

Hi Uhades

You want to do the difficult bits!
Getting a working rolling chassis is about 10% of the job - all of the fancy body and interior bits is the other 90%

I went the other way - as few fancy bits as possible

http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forum...dubious-device-44370p15.html?highlight=duncan


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## Tigertreejosh (Jul 23, 2017)

I would say I am handy and can get through most things with some help from YouTube but not overly mechanically proficient. I have tinkered with old bikes and scooters. I currently have a 1978 FJ40 I am working through a restoration on. Hoses and belts and what not I have done myself, for the manifold and exhaust I took it to a shop... 

My daily driver is a 2017 Volt so I am feeling some pangs of guilt for the incongruity of my reasons for driving a Volt and the my 10 mpg 70's truck. I am planning on moving on from the FJ next summer or maybe the one after and taking on a vintage EV conversion project. I owned a 1970 VW Karmann Ghia I have always regretted selling so that is my most likely target but I have a pretty long list of cars I would do and would love advice on idiosyncrasies of certain cars that might make a conversion harder than others, or really popular ones that might have more parts or kit availability.

I think I'll get in the neighborhood of 15k for my truck and really can't go over that so I'll conservatively say I would like my budget to be in 12-13k range knowing that I have a couple grand of mistakes based on my level of knowledge.

Ideal cars would be a Karmann Ghia or any 60's-70's Citroen. Would also really kick around any 60's-70's British convertible. 50-60 miles is adequate range and 55-60 for top speed.


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

One place to start is to look at other conversions of the same type, for a reality check on technology possibilities, time required, and cost.



Tigertreejosh said:


> Ideal cars would be a Karmann Ghia or any 60's-70's Citroen. Would also really kick around any 60's-70's British convertible.


Conversions of air-cooled VWs are common, so there should be lots to look at. As a Triumph Spitfire owner, I was surprised to see how many of those have been done and documented in this forum... have a look.


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## Tigertreejosh (Jul 23, 2017)

Yes I will start researching and reading more. Going to shoot for something with at least a couple of documented builds I can follow along with. I reckon I have at least a year before I really start but if I zero in on something I'd like to start acquiring parts as I can find deals locally.
Any advice on my budget? There is a nice MG locally for $1,500 that has everything but the engine. I am not in the position to take on the project at the moment, just noting that I am hoping I can find a similarly ideal situation where what I need is there and it's cheap because of engine problems. Thinking I can get my donor for under 4k which would leave me 8 or so for my build budget.


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## yoda (Aug 5, 2017)

Hello, I have a 2010 Renault Clio III. It has ~100 HP and I get about 600 km (370 mi) from a singe 50 L (13 gallon) reservoir of gasoline.

My question is: If I do a DIY conversion to electric, can I expect similar results? And what kind of electrical equipment would I need to install?

What kind of DC motor and what voltage?
1 or 2 DC motors?
What kind and how many batteries?

I'm only looking for preliminary information for my specific case, because I've kinda got no use for an electric vehicle that can drive me 20 km (12.5 mi) at 60 km/h (37 mph).

All in all, what do I need for a 90-100 HP and min 500 km (300 mi) range?

I'm a fresh-out-of-college mechanical engineer and they taught us literally nothing on electricity. All I know are some very basics like Ohm's law and stuff from youtube.

Thanks guys very much!


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## dcb (Dec 5, 2009)

easiest way is to look at existing examples. the reasonably streamlined and efficient tesla model 3 has about 310 miles range with a 75kwh pack. if you scrapped around you could get 3 nissan leaf packs (~25kwh each) for $6,000 and it would weigh about 1200 pounds. and if you made it as efficient and streamlined as the model 3 you could expect similar results.

or you could just drop $35k and get on the waiting list too.

but for similar acceleration you are probably gonna need more than 100hp, the model 3 has 300 hp fwiw.

streamlining is really important, as is driving style. for the most range on a budget, using tired old lead acid (not recommended, just source some leaf/volt cells from the boneyard) and a couple series motors, dave cloud got 200 miles. with second hand lithium 300 miles would be trivial, and weigh a ton less (and thus perform a lot better)

http://www.evalbum.com/3242

take a look at some other cars and setups while you are there.

hopefully you understand this is entirely about compromises.


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

yoda said:


> I'm a fresh-out-of-college mechanical engineer and they taught us literally nothing on electricity. All I know are some very basics like Ohm's law and stuff from youtube.


Ohms' law should have been covered years before starting an engineering program, but don't worry: all you really need to understand for now are power and energy, not electricity.

Whether powered by an engine or electric motor, a similar amount of force is required to move it, so a similar amount of power is required to keep it moving at the same speed, and a similar amount of energy is required to move the vehicle a specified distance. A gasoline-fueled car carries that energy as the potential energy from combustion of the gasoline: about 32.4 MJ/L is assumed by typical equivalency calculations, but in the electric vehicle world people like to use different energy units, so about 9 kWh/L or 12.5 kWh/kg. A battery using current technology holds about 0.16 kWh/kg. Ah - there's a potential problem...



yoda said:


> Hello, I have a 2010 Renault Clio III. It has ~100 HP and I get about 600 km (370 mi) from a singe 50 L (13 gallon) reservoir of gasoline.
> 
> My question is: If I do a DIY conversion to electric, can I expect similar results?


No. Whether it is DIY or commercially produced, a vehicle with the size and mass of the Clio will not have 600 km range, and if it carries enough energy to travel even close to that far, it won't be able to do it carrying what the Clio can carry.

At 600 kilometres per 50 litres, the Clio is using 0.083 L/km, or about 750 Wh/km. The engine's efficiency probably limits it to supplying about 200 Wh/km of that to driving the vehicle. It's no problem for the Clio to carry 450 kWh worth of gasoline, to make 120 kWh available to drive the car.

For an electric vehicle to carry 120 kWh in a battery, the battery will weigh about 760 kg (using 0.16 kWh/kg, taken from Tesla specs). That's huge: it's bigger than the largest Tesla car battery, weighs more than the Clio can carry, and would take the entire back seat space (forget rear-seat passengers, even if they weighed nothing). It also means that the power of the Clio would be insufficient, so a larger (and heavier, and more expensive) motor and matching controller would be needed.



yoda said:


> I'm only looking for preliminary information for my specific case, because I've kinda got no use for an electric vehicle that can drive me 20 km (12.5 mi) at 60 km/h (37 mph).


That's the performance of a toy, or a low-speed utility vehicle. You can do much better than that, but not the range which you want.



yoda said:


> All in all, what do I need for a 90-100 HP and min 500 km (300 mi) range?


You need to wait for better energy capacity of the batteries, reduce your expectations for range, or adjust the target vehicle size and cost up significantly from a DIY conversion of a Clio. There's no point in getting into component choices for motors and electronics until adjusting the target.

Some of the values which I have quoted may need tweaking for accuracy, but the general idea is sound: carrying energy in a battery is very heavy (and expensive), so the mass (and cost) of electric vehicles are much more sensitive to total energy requirement (range) than fuel-burning vehicles.


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## yoda (Aug 5, 2017)

Thank you brian_, this kind of an answer was exactly what I was looking for. I wanted to see if I could, basically, have the same car and its performance but with electric current instead of gasoline.

And about Ohm's law, I know that. But in my university in Mechanical Engineering department, they recently just cut out Electrotechnics 1. Which is absolutely idiotic because no one is teaching us anything about electricity. In college! It's retarded, and whoever made that choice should get fired! So I'm pretty much self taught in all electric current related.

Anyway, you've been very helpful, thank you for your answer!


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## Ralfik (Mar 27, 2017)

Hi all, 
My name is Rafal, I'm from Poland and I'm following this forum since at least one year. Now it's time to be more active 
I think the time has come to make my dreams true. I'm the owner of 1963 Volkswagen Beetle. The chassis has been rebuild, now it's time to make body renovation. I'm also fascinated with EV conversions. I'm not skilled in electrical issues, but I'm working with very experienced electrical engineers, who may help me with technical issues, as well as with cabling etc. The idea is to use LiFePO4 batteries (I thought about Calb CA or CAM series) and Orion BMS. My employer gives us possibility to use fast charger, so it would be great to build the car, which can be charged by CHAdeMO plug, but I'm not sure if it would be possible. Expected range of the car is max. 150 km, but on daily driving 80 km should be also fine. 
I hope you're able to help me to find the correct setup. I'm open on your suggestions and I'm also looking for your encourage and motivation to not to stop the project on early steps.


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## Kevin Sharpe (Jul 4, 2011)

Ralfik said:


> I hope you're able to help me to find the correct setup. I'm open on your suggestions and I'm also looking for your encourage and motivation to not to stop the project on early steps.


Have a look at my VW Bus thread (here) where I'm installing a Tesla drivetrain and open source controller (here) 

The Tesla drivetrain is now cheaper and lighter than many off the shelf AC motor/controllers and does not require transmission, adapter plate, or clutch. The open source controller allows you to use a wide range of battery configurations (250V to 400V) from many different manufacturers, and you can easily tune the power output upto ~250HP.

A low cost motor mount for VW vehicles will be available at the end of the year that will just bolt in without cutting the donor vehicle 

AC charging to ~20kW with an open source controller (here) is available and development plans include CCS and CHAdeMO DC rapid charging 

A friend is currently converting a VW Beetle Karmann Ghia Cabriolet using the Tesla drivetrain, Nissan Leaf battery modules, Leaf BMS with Wolf's controller (here), and Tesla charger. The Tesla drivetrain was 5000 USD, the Leaf Battery 2500 USD, the Leaf BMS 67 USD, and the Tesla charger 500 USD... a fraction of the cost you'd normally pay for high quality components (note you'll need to add the cost of the inverter, charger, and BMS controller boards).


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## Ralfik (Mar 27, 2017)

Hi Kevin, 
Thanks for your fast response. 
I didn't consider using the Tesla's components - Tesla is very rare car in middle / east Europe, and they are quite expensive - even damaged ones. However you gave me an idea to look around the possibilities of buying Tesla on auction in US and transport it to Poland. It's just the matter, if the final costs will be reasonable.


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## Kevin Sharpe (Jul 4, 2011)

Ralfik said:


> I didn't consider using the Tesla's components - Tesla is very rare car in middle / east Europe, and they are quite expensive - even damaged ones. However you gave me an idea to look around the possibilities of buying Tesla on auction in US and transport it to Poland. It's just the matter, if the final costs will be reasonable.


Lots cheap Tesla parts in Lithuania... I haven't purchased any parts from there myself but keep a list of resellers that forum members have used;

http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showthread.php/tesla-parts-buy-188490.html

Also check out The Netherlands... much cheaper than importing US parts


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## apexev (Jan 2, 2018)

I tried posting a thread about this but it never got approved so I'll explain here.

What do you guys recommend for basic hardware (motor/controller/battery combo) for a slow moving car that doesn't need to accelerate fast at all? The donor vehicle is a late 90s Hyundai Elantra with a manual transmission (don't need the clutch). 

I have an art car that a group of us take to the Burning Man festival in Nevada every year. The festival is held on a flat dry lakebed, so terrain-wise it's as easy as it gets.

The speed limit is 5mph for these vehicles, and slow starts are required because there are 5-10 people on top of the thing usually. Being that it's a slow vehicle I'm hoping we can get a good amount of range out of it.

I've wanted to give it the electric upgrade and now I have the space and tools to do it. I've read many threads on this forum and watched a lot of youtube videos but the vast majority of information is tailored to daily driver type vehicles so I'm not entirely certain what I should be looking for.

I'm leaning towards a lower voltage setup, maybe a DC forklift motor with 3-4 Volt batteries? I have plenty of space for batteries though as most of the action is outside of the car, do I need lithium? Charging speed is definitely important though.

Check it out, you can see how much was stripped from the car before building too:


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

Looks good!

How much do you want to spend?
Assuming that it's "as little as possible"

You will want a forklift motor - and for that you can use the controller as well 
48 volts would be best

Going 48v is no good at all on the highway - but it would be fine for you

Then a Volt battery - not the very latest - the ones that are made of 7 off 48v modules and 2 off 24v modules

You can paralel them up and stay 48v


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## apexev (Jan 2, 2018)

Thanks for the reply, that's pretty much exactly what I was thinking. What sort of range do you think I could squeeze out? We generally putter around in 1st gear, or sometimes literally idle in second gear if the load is light enough. If we're driving a lot 30 miles in a day is doable.

I'm also curious what the best "cruise control" would be for a low speed situation? It would be nice if I could hit a button or switch to maintain 5mph. When we're idling in second I can stand on the seat while cruising around.


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## madderscience (Jun 28, 2008)

48V is probably a good place to start, even 24V might work.

for range, given the location, circumntances, and speed involved, how about adding a 500W-1KW or so solar array (roughly 5x15') in place of the awning to keep the thing running? Will provide shade and probably plenty enough power to run an hour or two at a time during daylight hours then charge up again.

A reasonably healthy bank of lead acid batteries like 12V golf cart batteries or large UPS batteries (or even deep cycle car batteries) would work fine for this if you weren't worried about longetivity.

One challenge with such low voltage and speeds will be motor overheating. You might want to look at adding a second transmission/gearbox ahead of the main gearbox so that the motor can run at least 1000-1500 rpm at 5mph. It will make it easier to control speed and prevent the motor from getting hot due to insufficient air circulation. An option might be to take the axle and motor from a golf cart, weld the differential spider gears and cut off one side of the axle, and drive the car transmission from the other side. that will give about 7:1 reduction for the motor. 7:1 on the motor plus about 10:1 for the car transmission in first gear might give about the ratio you need.

A cooling solution (possibly necessary in any case to keep sand out of the motor) would be to add forced air circulation to the motor with an external blower.


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## apexev (Jan 2, 2018)

Yeah I'm definitely considering putting a shade structure on top consisting of PV panels. That netting thing was an addition the last time we had it out and left plenty to be desired... That would help reduce battery usage during the day so we can use them at night too.

Longevity is a good point you bring up. This is only driven for ~8 days out of the year, the rest of the time it will sit in storage with whatever appropriate battery maintainer hooked up. Is this alright for lead acid batteries or should I plan to cycle them every now and then throughout the year?

When it comes to heat we will typical drive a couple miles max before parking and hanging out. It sounds like it would be easier to build a blower than do the golf cart mod you suggest. My first welder is on the way and this is my first conversion, so hoping to keep things a bit more simple.

Are reverse gears a higher ratio than 1st gear? What about running the motor "backwards"?


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## madderscience (Jun 28, 2008)

lead acid has an expiration date whether its being used or not. I'd try to figure out a good use for the battery pack, whatever it is, the other 357 days of the year if possible.

I've got an off grid solar powered workshop with a 24V lithium battery bank. that battery bank would be a bit too small for your usage, but maybe a similar use could be found for your battery bank. a 100ah,48v battery is 4.8kwh.

assuming you can get 500W into the battery from your solar array for 6 hours out of the day (this is just a guess, you can research solar irradance / peak sun hours and probable weather for burning man) you could theoretically recharge about 3kwh over the day. Since the vehicle is moving very slowly the only consideration is rolling resistance. Even with the weight of all the stuff as long as the tires arent sinking into the dirt and are pumped up to the max, you might see 150-200wh/mile which would mean 15 or maybe 20 miles could be achieved on solar power alone over the day. again I'm largely guessing and there are a lot of factors that could affect this.

If you are only driving a couple of miles between stops, yes the blower will probably be fine. you can also cheat by using the smallest possible wheels/tires which still roll easily on the unpaved surface.

Maybe another simpler way to get additional gear reduction is instead of the golf cart axle idea would be to use a chain drive off of a motorcycle to reduce the motor RPM 3 or 4 to 1.

Reversing a golf cart or forklift DC motor is easy enough but requires a reversing contactor. For your purposes just use the car's reverse gear. It will be a similar ratio, usually slightly lower vs. first gear.


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## apexev (Jan 2, 2018)

Nice! That's a decent amount of energy from the sun. It's usually pretty clear and it's at the end of August so the sun is high. Only issue is dust buildup on the panels that would need to be cleaned regularly. 

There are 48v 2kwh Volt modules on ebay for less than $300, I could potentially grab two or three of those and be alright with a PV roof?

Rolling resistance is minimal. The lakebed is hard pack like concrete most everywhere, with occasional mushy spots. The car is getting trailer tires this year that are skinnier and harder than the original tires. Fully loaded with ~1500lbs of people it only requires a small amount of throttle to get rolling in 1st.


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## bawfuls (Jan 8, 2018)

That electric art car looks like an awesome project!

Not sure if this is the right thread for my "here's my crazy idea" post but here goes. 

I have been lurking here recently, along with consuming a bunch of youtube content from EV West, Jehu Garcia, and others similar. What I want to do is electrify a Datsun 240z with the current generation of EV components. I found two Z conversions in the Garage here, but they're 6-10 years old it looks like. 

It appears to me that salvaged Lithium batteries are the way to go at this point, as the modules from Leafs, Volts/Bolts, and Teslas are dramatically better in terms of lbs/kWh and $/kWh than the CALB options that were the go-to 3+ years ago.

As for motors however, Tesla drive units are still pretty pricey (The EVwest kit is $12k) and require really high voltages which are tough to achieve without the full Tesla battery pack. (Long-term it'd be great though cause I could dump more weight by ditching the original transmission.) So, I'm looking at something like this:

Motor: AC-75. 72-125V, max current 650A. This gives the Z half the horsepower it had with gas (78 vs 151), but a good deal more torque (183 vs 146 lbs.ft). I figure for a fun daily driver that ought to be pretty solid. I can always go crazy later doubling up AC-34's or something. Is that enough power to cruise highway speeds comfortably in a ~2400lbs car? I am also curious about the pros and cons of DC motors instead, like the Warp9 which seems to be common on some older builds I've seen.

Batteries: 8-10x Tesla smartcar battery modules. 57Ah, 57V nominal for 3kWh each, put them in series pairs for 114V nominal, 126V charge cutoff voltage. These batteries are nice because the series are only in sets of 2, so it is flexible and easy to add more capacity down the road if desired. My goal is roughly 100 miles range, which I think is doable in a car this size at 24-30kWh capacity. Is that way off base?

I'd use the original Z transmission, and EVwest (notice the theme?) sells an adapter plate for this motor series and the L24 transmission bell. It seems simpler to just stick with a manual and not try to mate to an automatic transmission, so that will be a consideration when searching for a donor car.

So as for the donor car, I'm aiming to find something that is in reasonable exterior and interior shape, i.e. minimal rust, working electrical systems, seats/dash that are OK, etc. I don't want to gut the car and build it from the ground up. From obsessive craigslist hunting the past week, it looks like I could find one that runs (perhaps poorly) for $5-7k. I'd sell the engine, presumably if it's not running someone would buy it to rebuild at least. The nice part of this is I live in Southern California so there are lots of them around and they tend to be less rusted out here. I want to use the 240z as it's the lightest of the pre-1980 series Z. Something like this.

Anyway, first-pass on budgeting this project comes out to $20k assuming:
-donor 240z $5k net after selling engine
-batteries $7k
-EV components $8k

The end goal is a classic 70's sports car with a fun and more reliable electric daily driver setup.

I wanted to put all the thoughts I've had swirling around down in text and see how it looks. I'm looking for a gut-check from the people here on the concept and approach. Does this make sense?


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

The weak part is the motor

Alternative suggestion

Buy a complete Leaf that has had a whoopsy

Fit the Leaf Motor unit into the back of your 240Z - use the Leaf modules and any other bits

By the time you get it all together you will be able to buy a 300Hp controller for the Leaf

That's what I fancy for my next project - but with a folded composite chassis and a Jaguar C Type looking body


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## bawfuls (Jan 8, 2018)

What are the specs on the Leaf motor? The batteries are more expensive and from what I can see, and nearly twice as heavy per kWh.

edit: looks like 80-90 kW. Dual AC34's (double the motor cost) would get me to 125 hp which is much closer to the original engine.


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

Hi
If you buy the complete crashed car you may end up getting the lot for $3K or less!

As far as weight is concerned all of the Lithium Ion are about the same - the main difference is if you include the "Armour" that surround them

Tesla. Leaf or Volt modules are similar weight/energy

But if you compare Tesla modules to a Leaf Battery then the Leaf will include the Armour


The Leaf motor is about 100Kw - so already better than the AC - but that is 100 Kw for 200,000 miles with 1 failure in a thousand

We are "Hot Rodders" we can live with slightly more unreliability!

I am currently using a 10 Kw Forklift motor - 206 amps - 48 v and 1400 rpm
I'm feeding it - 1200 amps 340v and at the end of the 1/8th it's doing 4700 rpm 

I'm not suggesting that you overload the Leaf quite as much as that


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## bawfuls (Jan 8, 2018)

Is it a simple matter to remove the leaf modules from the armor to get them on par with tesla battery weights? 

I suspect that "all Lithium batteries are the same" in the weight to capacity measure is a bit over-generalizing. There are two kinds of Tesla modules easily available now (both sans any extra "armor"), the batteries in the S and the ones from the roadster and Smart Cars. Based on the specs EVwest reports, the S modules are 10.4 lbs/kWh and the Smart ones are 14.0 lbs/kWh

That's a 40% difference! CALB batteries are also Lithium, and the common CALB 180Ah I see people use comes in at 21.4 lbs/kWh. Seems significant to me.

I have not found comprehensive resources with data on Leaf or Volt batteries like I've found on EVwest for the Tesla and CALB batteries. Is this data compiled anywhere? The battery section of this site's wiki seems out of date, as it is pretty light on Lithium compared to Lead Acid.


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

When you are doing the comparisons you do need to be careful

Capacity? - is that total capacity? - Usable capacity? The amount the car manufacturer chooses to use?
Weight? - weight of cells, connections, armour, coolant, BMS?

When you get them down to the same level there is not much to choose - 

Roadster modules are more than bit long in the tooth - at least three generations out of date

To me it would boil down to cost and ease of use

If I was going to get a complete Leaf that would be
Motor, controller, charger, BMS and Batteries - and also things like contactors cables and accelerator position sensors

A complete crashed Tesla would be even better - but is a bit too rich for me

As soon as you start buying "bits" then you can double the price 

You are in California - maybe you can get a crashed Tesla?


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## bawfuls (Jan 8, 2018)

Here's how I arrived at those numbers.


```
Module          $	kWh	lbs	Vnom	lbs/kWh	$/kWh
Tesla S  	$1,450	5.3	55	22.8	10.4	$274
Tesla Rd	$690	3	42	57	14.0	$230
CALB 180	$259	0.58	12.35	3.2	21.4	$450
leaf    	$150	0.49	13.5	7.6	27.8	$308
volt    	$300	2.26	45	48	19.9	$133
```
The Tesla and CALB module data comes form their listings on EV West. As an example, the roadster module is listed at 3kWh. This agrees with the listed nominal voltage (57) and 57Ah capacity rating.

The CALB 180 has a nominal voltage of 3.2, so with the 180Ah capacity that yields 0.576 kWh per module.

I don't mean to be difficult, and you clearly have more experience with these systems than I do (that's why I'm here after all!) but it would help me greatly if we could settle on some apples-to-apples numerical comparisons sift through.

I'm also skeptical the AC75 is inadequate for power. This MR2 is run by an AC50 and it seems pretty zippy but that video is not very detailed. A 240z would begin about 500lbs lighter than an MR2 though.

edit: On that note, I'm having trouble comparing power numbers on motors. I see lots of cars in the Garage on this site listed at 100-150kW using the Warp 9 motor. That motor is rated at 32 hp, which should translate into a bit under 24 kW. Sounds downright anemic! Here's the performance graph on the Warp 9 from NetGain. This shows it topping out at 70 hp (52 kW). At the max current here I see 350A, so with the max voltage (190 listed) that'd give 66.5kW or 90hp. Anyway those numbers seem comprable to the AC 75.











I could also use some help understanding conceptually the pros and cons of DC vs AC motors for these applications. I don't think I've seen regen braking on the DC motors but maybe I'm not understanding.


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

I've just weighed my spare Volt module 41.5 lbs - it's a 2 Kwhr module so the new ones are a bit more - so 48 lbs sounds about right 

I paid $1800 for a complete pack - 16 Kwh so $112/Kwhr
I have seen Leaf packs for less than $3k - so that would be $125/Kwhr 

Your table - you have the leaf modules at 13.5 lbs - the sites I found have 8.4 lbs or 3.8 kg

https://evbatterycenter.com/HAC4/in...me=58ah-nissan-leaf-battery-module&Itemid=605

That drops the Leaf to 17 lbs/Kwhr - a bit better than the Volt
which is what I'm expecting as the Volt has it's cooling system built in

Looks like the Tesla units cost twice as much but are a bit better

As far as enough power is concerned I remember driving a Camaro - the MOST disappointing car I have ever driven a real sheep in wolves clothing!

My car is 805 kg - fairly light and I have 408 Kw - in practice not as much as that - probably only 300 Kw when I take sag and losses into account
Actually a bit too much I drive at 45% power on the road - 100% only for the track

I would be very disappointed with a car that looked as good as a 240Z and only had 70 Kw


You are talking about 7K for batteries and 8K for the other bits
I think that you have a good chance of a crashed Tesla for 15K

And you could buy several crashed Leafs for that!

A 240Z with a Tesla power unit sounds like an awesome machine to me

Or halve your budget
5K - - 240Z
3K - - Crashed Leaf
2K for a holiday somewhere - I'm joking - you WILL need to spend that on something

You are starting off with 100 kw (better than 75 kw) but with a lot more headroom for tuning


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## bawfuls (Jan 8, 2018)

Your updated weight data for the Leaf batteries make them a competitive option at that price point. It would be good to see detailed data from the Leaf motor, like the performance curve plots available for the AC75 or Warp9.

You said 70kW would be disappointing, but the Leaf's motor is listed at 80kW which is only marginally better. I'm not convinced it's a major step up in performance. The price break is evident though.

Sorry I edited a bunch more into my previous post. Can you shed some light on my Warp 9 questions above?


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

AC v DC

90% of DC will be series DC from a forklift - all of these fancy ones are forklift motors with a coat of paint and an extra zero on the price

You can't do re-gen with a series DC - like all motors it CAN act as a generator but you can't control it

A 9 inch motor will weigh about 60 kg
My 11 inch motor is 102 kg

At about 200 amps they will last forever - at higher currents they will get hotter!

So in the forklift at 1400 rpm = 48v and 10 Kw
in a car at 2800 rpm - you will get 20 Kw - but you will need more volts - 90 (ish)
And that is still - forever

I'm using 1200 amps - maybe 20 seconds? to meltdown - but long before that I have to lift off

This is where the big power comes with DC - where you can overload them - for a short period

I beat some of the supercharged V8's last year at our drags - I've now bought some decent road tyres and I'm going after the others this year

- I can't do 1/4 miles as I'm hitting 4700 rpm and 85 mph at the end of the 1/8th


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## bawfuls (Jan 8, 2018)

Thanks for the AC DC comparison, that helps clarify things.

For my purposes I'd prefer AC then. I am less interested in overcharging a motor for track performance, and more interested in getting regen braking for a more efficient daily driver. The performance benchmark I'd like to hit initially is matching the original 240z, but with that torque-heavy electric drive and improved weight distribution it should be more fun around town.

Since the 240z is listed at 113 kW it seems you're right I should be aiming for 100+ kW to start. Can a Leaf motor really get there with ease? I guess they don't publish comparable power curves for it?


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

The difference is 75 Kw - in "tuned up" mode verses 80 Kw in 200,000 miles mode!

I don't think that you can get much if anything more from the AC75 - but there is a guy getting 300hp from his Leaf motor - somewhere on this site!

And I'm a Scotsman - I don't like paying money
My motor cost $100 - controller $800 - battery $1800


My system is brutal and primitive
the AC 75 is a bit more sophisticated - but still a bit primitive

The Leaf or Tesla is like 30 years advanced

For my next project it will probably be a crashed Leaf - if I could afford one a crashed Tesla - put some feelers out see what one of them will cost you


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## bawfuls (Jan 8, 2018)

Duncan said:


> The difference is 75 Kw - in "tuned up" mode verses 80 Kw in 200,000 miles mode!
> 
> I don't think that you can get much if anything more from the AC75 - but there is a guy getting 300hp from his Leaf motor - somewhere on this site!


Why is this the case? The Leaf motor is AC as well right? (must be since it has regen braking) What are people doing to get more out of the Leaf, modifying the controller and drawing more current?

This post I found from a little over a year ago, along with the rest of that thread, seem to suggest that the AC75 (or even the AC50) would be plenty sufficient.


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

Yep - give it more current!

The big problem with the AC75 is that it's old low voltage technology

How much does an AC 75 cost ? - about $5K ?

You could get a complete Leaf for that!

And then there is the "plenty sufficient" truthfully - yes it will probably be ok

It will drive OK - probably feel better than the original IC unit

But it won't be a blast to drive

Why pay a lot more to get a lot less?


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## Kevin Sharpe (Jul 4, 2011)

bawfuls said:


> Tesla drive units are still pretty pricey (The EVwest kit is $12k)


Don't be put off by the 'kit' prices, you can buy a Tesla drivetrain for a fraction of those prices and then build or order an open source controller (see here).



bawfuls said:


> and require really high voltages which are tough to achieve without the full Tesla battery pack.


The open source controller will allow you to use any voltage from 220V (lower limit of Tesla charger) so it's very flexible. Indeed, if you use 250V then you'll be compatible with the CHAdeMO and CCS rapid chargers 

It's also possible to modify Tesla modules to make them ~46V nominal (see here). 8 modules from a p100 (6.25kWh each) would give you a ~370V, 50kWh battery


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## Kevin Sharpe (Jul 4, 2011)

Duncan said:


> The big problem with the AC75 is that it's old low voltage technology


I agree, OEM is the way to go today... lots of 'cheap' parts to build and repair our cars


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## Kevin Sharpe (Jul 4, 2011)

bawfuls said:


> What are people doing to get more out of the Leaf


Work has recently started on Leaf (and then BMWi) support from the open source controller (here). I see no reason why you shouldn't be able to replicate the 300HP achieved here;


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## bawfuls (Jan 8, 2018)

This might sound silly on a DIY forum, but custom experimental controllers to hack OEM motors is probably where I'd draw the line on this project.

I am comfortable with the idea of modifying in software/firmware a commercially available controller to coax more out of a motor, but starting with custom hardware that's been assembled by an enthusiast is a bit more experimental and tinker-y than I'm aiming for here.

I totally get why people do it! As mentioned, you can get hot-rod performance at an extremely competitive price. The trade-off is just too many unknowns and lack of proven reliability for my taste.

I appreciate all the feedback. The Leaf batteries alone are tempting, given the updated weight and pricing info from you guys. Being smaller modules, they also offer much more flexibility in arranging voltage for a wide variety of motors or future motor changes.


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## Kevin Sharpe (Jul 4, 2011)

bawfuls said:


> I am comfortable with the idea of modifying in software/firmware a commercially available controller to coax more out of a motor, but starting with custom hardware that's been assembled by an enthusiast is a bit more experimental and tinker-y than I'm aiming for here.


None of the OEMs share details of their motors and therefore every solution being offered to the DIY community is using hardware/firmware/software that's been developed by 'hackers' and is never completely understood.

Personally I'd much rather use the open source hardware/software that's directly controlling the inverter and been running in cars for many years. That said, I'm glad that we have a range of options and we can finally drive down conversion costs using OEM parts


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## Kevin Sharpe (Jul 4, 2011)

Kevin Sharpe said:


> It's also possible to modify Tesla modules to make them ~46V nominal (see here). 8 modules from a p100 (6.25kWh each) would give you a ~370V, 50kWh battery


forum member electro_wrks reminded me that you can buy modified modules off the shelf 

http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showpost.php?p=945634&postcount=12


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## bawfuls (Jan 8, 2018)

Kevin Sharpe said:


> None of the OEMs share details of their motors and therefore every solution being offered to the DIY community is using hardware/firmware/software that's been developed by 'hackers' and is never completely understood.
> 
> Personally I'd much rather use the open source hardware/software that's directly controlling the inverter and been running in cars for many years. That said, I'm glad that we have a range of options and can drive down conversion costs using OEM parts


Right, that's why I gravitated towards the HPEVS motors to start with. If someone can hack a Leaf motor to get 300hp instead of the rated 100hp or whatever, it seems like it should be *easier* to do something similar with HPEVS motors since the details of those are available to the public. And I wouldn't even be aiming for a 3x increase in power. I'd be happy getting 50% more out of an AC50!

Maybe the difference is that these HPEVS motors are already running closer to their physical limits than the Leaf motor is? Seems odd that would be the case though.



Duncan said:


> Yep - give it more current!
> 
> The big problem with the AC75 is that it's old low voltage technology
> 
> ...


If the problem is low voltage, there's also the AC76 or AC51 which are higher voltage versions of those motors (~170V max instead of 130, though that's not a huge increase, but from the performance graphs it appears to buy an extra 1000 rpm before the peak HP and torque fall off).


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## Kevin Sharpe (Jul 4, 2011)

bawfuls said:


> Maybe the difference is that these HPEVS motors are already running closer to their physical limits than the Leaf motor is? Seems odd that would be the case though.


Obviously it would be possible to replace the Curtis Controllers with another inverter but I can't imagine many manufacturers would bother given the low volumes. You could also use the open source inverter 

It's also worth remembering that the HPEVs solution requires a transmission, coupler, and clutch, which drives up the weight and cost considerably... given you can buy a complete 2014 Leaf drivetrain for 600 Euros ($720) I believe OEM is the way forward


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## bawfuls (Jan 8, 2018)

I work less than half an hour away from the EV West shop, so I think I ought to drop by there some time soon and pick their brains for as long as they'll put up with me. I'd like to know why they use the HPEVS motors, why they salvage Tesla batteries (and motors) but not Leaf or Volt batteries/motors, and what kind of performance they've seen out of their single-motor builds.


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## Kevin Sharpe (Jul 4, 2011)

bawfuls said:


> I work less than half an hour away from the EV West shop, so I think I ought to drop by there some time soon and pick their brains


That would be useful, you could also ask for an update on their Tesla project 

Are you aware they have kits available?

http://www.evwest.com/catalog/index.php?cPath=40&osCsid=lhk95ueee8mh7ehgpstl6hah91


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## bawfuls (Jan 8, 2018)

Kevin Sharpe said:


> Obviously it would be possible to replace the Curtis Controllers with another inverter but I can't imagine many manufacturers would bother given the low volumes. You could also use the open source inverter
> 
> It's also worth remembering that the HPEVs solution requires a transmission, coupler, and clutch, which drives up the weight and cost considerably... given you can buy a complete 2014 Leaf drivetrain for 600 Euros ($720) I believe OEM is the way forward


The donor car is likely to come with a transmission and I was planning to use it. With adapter plates already available, this makes mating the motor to the drivetrain a relatively simple procedure. Using a complete Leaf drivetrain would require more fabrication and customization but yes it's potentially much cheaper. I am not sure there is actually a weight advantage since the Leaf drivetrain makes up for a lot of the gain by ditching a stock transmission. I saw a listing for a Leaf motor/drivetrain stack that said it weighed 900 lbs! But again, reliable stats seem to be hard to come by.


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## bawfuls (Jan 8, 2018)

Kevin Sharpe said:


> That would be useful, you could also ask for an update on their Tesla project
> 
> Are you aware they have kits available?
> 
> http://www.evwest.com/catalog/index.php?cPath=40&osCsid=lhk95ueee8mh7ehgpstl6hah91


Yeah I started on their kits, but they don't have a "kit" for a 240z. They do however make and sell an adapter plate for the Z, which is the only real car-specific part of their kits. Their kit prices are basically the same as buying all the same individual components from them. The only difference between their various kits is the adapter plate to mate the AC50 to the stock transmission on the donor car.


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## Kevin Sharpe (Jul 4, 2011)

bawfuls said:


> reliable stats seem to be hard to come by.


Lots good Leaf drivetrain info in this video;


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## bawfuls (Jan 8, 2018)

Kevin Sharpe said:


> Lots good Leaf drivetrain info in this video;


Thanks for this! In the comments he says:

charger - 60 lbs
inverter - 33 lbs
motor - 180 lbs

batteries (excluding their box!) - 440 lbs (seems good for 24kWh, comes out to 18 lbs/kWh which is competitive)


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## Kevin Sharpe (Jul 4, 2011)

bawfuls said:


> reliable stats seem to be hard to come by.


Here are the two Tesla 'small' drive units (motor/inverter/transmission)... note at ~90kg (200lbs) they weigh less than the HPEVS AC-51 and the simple 4 speed transmission used in my VW Bus... oh and the Tesla makes 3x the HP at least


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## bawfuls (Jan 8, 2018)

Those small Tesla drive units are quite the package! How do you control them?

But the weight is the same as the AC51 equivalent for me. 

AC51 - 115 lbs
curtis controller - 12 lbs
240z trany - 80lbs
total - 207 lbs

3x the hp out of the same weight is obviously impressive though. My concern circles back to the need for a reverse-engineered controller.


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## Kevin Sharpe (Jul 4, 2011)

bawfuls said:


> Those small Tesla drive units are quite the package! How do you control them?


I'm aware of 6 conversions that are using Damien's inverter controller (here) and you can expect to pay ~$3000 for the motor (here).

If monies no object then for three times the price you can use the proprietary controllers from EV West, HSR, EVTV, etc.


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## Kevin Sharpe (Jul 4, 2011)

bawfuls said:


> 3x the hp out of the same weight is obviously impressive though.


It's also 50% of the volume 



bawfuls said:


> My concern circles back to the need for a reverse-engineered controller.


My guess is that HPEVS motors are used in a few hundred cars at most... personally I don't see thats so very different from a community supported open source controller. However, if you really want OEM quality at low cost then several people are reusing the complete Nissan Leaf system (see here) which obviously has all the benefits of a mass volume car with no firmware modification 

You can also buy a complete 2014 Leaf at salvage for ~$2500


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## Kevin Sharpe (Jul 4, 2011)

bawfuls said:


> AC51 - 115 lbs
> curtis controller - 12 lbs
> 240z trany - 80lbs
> total - 207 lbs


That's a similar weight to the Nissan Leaf motor/inverter (ignoring the charger in all cases).


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## bawfuls (Jan 8, 2018)

Kevin Sharpe said:


> That's a similar weight to the Nissan Leaf motor/inverter (ignoring the charger in all cases).


Yes exactly. Though that video you linked said the Leaf charger was a whopping 160lbs!


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## Kevin Sharpe (Jul 4, 2011)

bawfuls said:


> Yes exactly. Though that video you linked said the Leaf charger was a whopping 160lbs!


It's not just a charger... it contains the DCDC, HVJB, Charger, etc.


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## bawfuls (Jan 8, 2018)

Kevin Sharpe said:


> It's not just a charger... it contains the DCDC, HVJB, Charger, etc.


Ok but still, an off the shelf charger is like 15lbs, DCDC converter 5lbs, HVJB can't be more than 5lbs or so.

I get that the Leaf charger includes Level 3 capability though, so there are certainly trade-offs.


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## Kevin Sharpe (Jul 4, 2011)

bawfuls said:


> I get that the Leaf charger includes Level 3 capability though, so there are certainly trade-offs.


Correct and it's all OEM quality and designed to work together... obviously you could replace all these parts but then you're back into the game of mix and match which I think concerns you.

That said, $2500 for a Leaf donor car that provides the complete drivetrain and battery must be attractive?


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## bawfuls (Jan 8, 2018)

Ehhh, mix and matching those kind of components doesn't bother me. The unknowns of having to reverse-engineer motor communication and control is a bigger issue to me. Additional complexity and fabrication in coupling to the donor car drivetrain is also a concern for me.

But it's unlikely I can really start this project for at least a year, so maybe the OEM I/O options will be more robust by that point.


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## Kevin Sharpe (Jul 4, 2011)

bawfuls said:


> The unknowns of having to reverse-engineer motor communication and control is a bigger issue to me.


So that rules out the Tesla and BMW drivetrains...



bawfuls said:


> Additional complexity and fabrication in coupling to the donor car drivetrain is also a concern for me.


So that rules out the Leaf drivetrain as well... so, you're back to looking at HPEVS or similar with an old school transmission... good luck


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## bawfuls (Jan 8, 2018)

Yup, that's what I've surmised from this discussion. The Leaf is still on the table since things could evolve in the next year and in theory I *should* be more comfortable with mechanical fab issues than the DIY control issues.

I appreciate all the info and discussion here. I will keep digging and watch the state of things evolve. I don't have to make any decisions right now.


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## Kevin Sharpe (Jul 4, 2011)

bawfuls said:


> I appreciate all the info and discussion here. I will keep digging and watch the state of things evolve.


Great... I recommend you watch Damien's BMW 8 Series (here) and my VW Bus conversion (here) both should be on the road in the next three months using Tesla parts and lots open source controllers


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

bawfuls said:


> ... I'm having trouble comparing power numbers on motors.


I don't blame you... and the stupid charts from NetGain don't help. Note the speed range: 2100 rpm to 5000 rpm... and in the top half of that speed range, the torque and efficiency are very low. What about from zero to 2100 rpm? The primitive test method used by NetGain doesn't provide any information about the range of speed below the motor's torque peak. Only brushed DC motors - and maybe only those from NetGain - are described in this way, so no rational comparison is possible.


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## bawfuls (Jan 8, 2018)

brian_ said:


> I don't blame you... and the stupid charts from NetGain don't help. Note the speed range: 2100 rpm to 5000 rpm... and in the top half of that speed range, the torque and efficiency are very low. What about from zero to 2100 rpm? The primitive test method used by NetGain doesn't provide any information about the range of speed below the motor's torque peak. Only brushed DC motors - and maybe only those from NetGain - are described in this way, so no rational comparison is possible.


This guy does a nice slow breakdown of popular motor options and their use in the DIY scene, splitting into three categories (DC, AC, and the OEMs). The take away I got from that was those NetGain DC motors are not as desirable for my purposes (daily driver with ~100mi range) as the AC or OEM offerings. Sounds like they're still a great option for track cars though.


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

bawfuls said:


> Can a Leaf motor really get there with ease? I guess they don't publish comparable power curves for it?


There are many published torque-speed curves for the Nissan Leaf motor, with efficiency plotted as well. They're pretty boring to look at:

constant torque up to a threshold speed
constant power (80 kW) above that, until the limit is reached
The motor can actually handle more, but 80 kW is the design limit for continuous operation. The Leaf comes from a real automobile manufacturer, so the motor is rated for continuous duty like any engine. Since the Leaf is sold for functional transportation (not stoplight drag racing) there is no reason for Nissan to fudge the numbers with unsustainable peak values... even though brief peak performance is of interest to many people.


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

bawfuls said:


> Why is this the case? The Leaf motor is AC as well right?


Yes, both are 3-phase AC motors. In addition to the voltage difference (which is hugely important), the Leaf has (like all other current production EVs other than the Tesla Model S/X) is a synchronous motor with a permanent magnet rotor, while the HPEVs AC motors are induction type (like the Tesla Model S/X).

If anyone wants a PM motor to run at high voltages, reasonably comparable to a Leaf motor, the BorgWarner (formerly Remy) HVH series is a closer match than the HPEVs AC series.


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## bawfuls (Jan 8, 2018)

brian_ said:


> Yes, both are 3-phase AC motors. In addition to the voltage difference (which is hugely important), the Leaf has (like all other current production EVs other than the Tesla Model S/X) is a synchronous motor with a permanent magnet rotor, while the HPEVs AC motors are induction type (like the Tesla Model S/X).


What advantages/disadvantages are there between permanent magnet and induction AC motors?

I guess synchronous motors need more robust control communication to maintain synchronization?

All the talk of salvaged OEMs does make me contemplate battery sourcing a bit more. If I do end up wanting those old Tesla roadster batteries, buying a salvaged Smart Car may end up the way to go. A brief search turned up a local salvage for about $1500. That's only 6 modules but $250 per module is a steal, less than $100/kWh!


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

bawfuls said:


> I saw a listing for a Leaf motor/drivetrain stack that said it weighed 900 lbs! But again, reliable stats seem to be hard to come by.


What, with the battery? Rationally, a compact car such as the Leaf could not have a 900 pound motor and transmission, even with the inverter and charger; also, it would need to be made of lead to weigh that much given its volume... it's not a sensible number, and common sense is certainly required when reading non-authoritative stuff floating about web sites.


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

*Leaf powertrain component weights*



bawfuls said:


> Thanks for this! In the comments he says:
> 
> charger - 60 lbs
> inverter - 33 lbs
> ...


If that's the complete breakdown, then "motor" must mean motor and transaxle.


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

*Induction versus Permanent Magnet*



bawfuls said:


> What advantages/disadvantages are there between permanent magnet and induction AC motors?


That could - and has - start a massive discussion. Both work; both can work well. The factors which drive the choice by an automotive OEM may not be so important to an individual DIY buyer.



bawfuls said:


> I guess synchronous motors need more robust control communication to maintain synchronization?


Not really - the shaft position of a synchronous motor is provided by a sensor and the controller stays in step with it. For an induction motor, position doesn't matter but the controller must keep the difference between the AC power frequency and the actual shaft speed (the slip speed) at the right value for effective operation.


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

*Salvage battery sources and choices*



bawfuls said:


> All the talk of salvaged OEMs does make me contemplate battery sourcing a bit more. If I do end up wanting those old Tesla roadster batteries, buying a salvaged Smart Car may end up the way to go. A brief search turned up a local salvage for about $1500. That's only 6 modules but $250 per module is a steal, less than $100/kWh!


I think location might be important to this choice.

Here in Alberta, Canada, EVs purchases are not subsidized so there are very few EVs and the only two you'll ever see on the road are Nissan Leaf and Tesla Model S; there are also few plug-in hybrids, and nearly all of them are Chevrolet Volt. Any salvage battery other than a Leaf, Model S, or Volt will be shipped in from somewhere - and perhaps over an international border - so I would be leery of basing a design on them.

The supply situation is different in other locations.


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## bawfuls (Jan 8, 2018)

Yeah I'm in Southern California so the supply situation is great here for EV salvage!


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## bawfuls (Jan 8, 2018)

Bumping this thread because there appears to be a new competitor in the off the shelf motor division that I had previously overlooked.

Late last year NetGain released a new permanent magnet brushless synchronous reluctance AC motor, the HyPer9. According to EV West, it is rated at 120hp and 173lbs.ft. It sells for basically the same as the AC-50. 

The motor is sealed, and cooled by external heatsink.










The paired controller from SME accepts up to 132 Volts and puts out up to 750 Amps (rms).

NetGain also claims 94% peak motor efficiency, compared to the 88% that's standard on the HPEVS motors and the Warp9. I thought I found somewhere on the NetGain site where they said the bolt holes on the face match the Warp9 pattern as well (making it compatible with adapters people have already built for previous motors).

All in all, this looks to me like an independent motor manufacturer catching up a bit with the OEMs. The websites all say first delivery was supposed to happen in November, so there probably aren't many out in real vehicles just yet.

edit: of course I failed to search before I posted, there is already a thread about it


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

bawfuls said:


> All in all, this looks to me like an independent motor manufacturer catching up a bit with the OEMs.


I wouldn't consider it quite catching up with the OEMs, as it is not intended to compete in the OEM EV world. It is a modern motor (so yes, catching up in technology) specifically for the low-voltage market of industrial vehicles, which should also be useful for DIY builders wanting to use low battery voltage.


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## Kevin Sharpe (Jul 4, 2011)

bawfuls said:


> accepts up to 132 Volts


Anything below 250V battery is unlikely to be compatible for rapid chargers. Something worth considering if you intend to road trip in your EV.


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## bawfuls (Jan 8, 2018)

Kevin Sharpe said:


> Anything below 250V battery is unlikely to be compatible for rapid chargers. Something worth considering if you intend to road trip in your EV.


I don't. My current car is a 2010 Subaru WRX hatchback and I'd like to make that the roadtrip vehicle and use the EV for daily driver duties. This has the additional bonus of reducing my annual mileage on the Subaru, letting me hold on to it for hopefully years longer than I otherwise might. 

I can live with Level 2 charging.


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## Phoghat (Jan 20, 2018)

Hi, 
By way of Introduction I am a retiree living in Zacatecas Mexico. Although there are many electric vehicles down here, they are in use and second hand vehicles and parts are non existent. For example, Coke is almost the National drink here, and all their delivery vehicles are smaller electric trucks. The police have been trying out 3 wheeled stand up scooters that look like chariots as patrol vehicles. 
I am also an amputee, and although I have a car, and can drive , anything I use has to have an auto tranny, as I lack a left leg for a clutch. I had originally planned on a VW powered trike, but auto trannies for VW mills are very scarce and very expensive. My knowledge about cars is a bit above average, but I have not done much for a while because of the leg. Thankfully, labor here is relatively inexpensive. Right now just looking for ideas, and very much open to suggestions. I used to race up in the states, but super fast is not really very important to me now. Range is also not very important as it would only be for local trips. Thanks for the add


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## Kranzk (Jan 3, 2018)

I am planning to change battery packs in my Voltsporsche 914. I put together the kit from electroautomotive, and had adequate performance with the lead acid pack, and like the vehicle enough to change to lithium batteries. I was getting a 70 mile range and top sped around 70 mph with the lead acid pack

I want to doublecheck my conversion plan before buying batteries.

I have a Curtis 1221 controller ,75-120V
I can have the Zivan charger changed to charge Lithium chemistry
I plan to use the CALB 180 ah batteries, as they fit well in the existing battery boxes

Will 38 lithium cells work properly for this set up?

Thanks for the help


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## PStechPaul (May 1, 2012)

That would be a *38 * 3.3 * 180 = 22.5 kW-h* pack. If your vehicle consumes a typical *250 Wh/mile*, this would give you about *90 miles* maximum range. The reduced weight of lithium should help, and they should last much longer.


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

Kranzk said:


> I have a Curtis 1221 controller ,75-120V
> ...
> I plan to use the CALB 180 ah batteries, as they fit well in the existing battery boxes
> 
> Will 38 lithium cells work properly for this set up?


38 of those cells in series would be 122 volt at 3.2V nominal, and even higher when fully charged... isn't that a bit high for a controller rated up to 120 volts? It would make sense to look at the controller specs in detail.


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## Kranzk (Jan 3, 2018)

Thanks. If I use an Orion BMS will that manage the top end voltage to keep from overloading the controller?


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

Kranzk said:


> Thanks. If I use an Orion BMS will that manage the top end voltage to keep from overloading the controller?


The purpose of the BMS is to protect the battery, from overcharging, over-discharge, and imbalance between cells. It doesn't change the voltage of properly charged cells, so if the properly charged battery voltage is too high for the controller, it's still too high with a BMS. That 120 V rating might be some sort of nominal rating, allowing higher voltage without damage; it's worth checking. This model (1221) does not appear to be current, so Curtis Instruments doesn't show specs for it.

An online copy of the Curtis manual shows the 1221 as up to 120 volts "nominal", and I don't see a maximum input voltage. Maybe it's not a concern...

It might make sense to look at other installations (such as in the Garage) with LiFePO4 cells, and see how many cells they use with this or similar controllers.


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## Kranzk (Jan 3, 2018)

Thanks for the information. I appreciate your expertise.

I will do some more research and keep working on the car.

Has anyone had experience with the used Tesla packs from EV West?


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## wecharg (Feb 3, 2018)

I know where you can order DIY kits pretty simple with plug and play..


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## Kranzk (Jan 3, 2018)

I would be interested in a plug and play kit. I'm good at assembling, not inventing... Where can I research this further? Thanks


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## sjd.aliyan (Jan 17, 2018)

Kranzk said:


> I would be interested in a plug and play kit. I'm good at assembling, not inventing... Where can I research this further? Thanks


first of all Its not a lego action figure.you should have an understanding of what you want to do.then clarify your budget.


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## bawfuls (Jan 8, 2018)

Had trouble finding this in a search, maybe someone will see it here.

Lots of people seem to have experience with various Tesla battery modules, but I can't find any info about using them in unnatural orientations. i.e. the modules were designed to sit a certain way in the car, and I'm wondering if it's fine to put them up on edge instead?

My concern would be an unnatural orientation interfering with the integrated cooling system or maybe putting undue mechanical load on certain cells over time.

I'm looking at the 6S modules out of the Model S, and it would significantly simplify my battery box design if I could put them up on edge instead of flat as they were originally in the Tesla.


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## sjd.aliyan (Jan 17, 2018)

bawfuls said:


> Had trouble finding this in a search, maybe someone will see it here.
> 
> Lots of people seem to have experience with various Tesla battery modules, but I can't find any info about using them in unnatural orientations. i.e. the modules were designed to sit a certain way in the car, and I'm wondering if it's fine to put them up on edge instead?
> 
> ...


What do you mean by unnatural?
It consist of 16 modules each of this modules is 24 volt nominal.
You can use this modules in whatever voltages you want (multiplies of 24 volt)
as i know each module consist 444 cells in 6s74p.
each module have its own bms and all modules are chained together.


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## Kevin Sharpe (Jul 4, 2011)

bawfuls said:


> Lots of people seem to have experience with various Tesla battery modules, but I can't find any info about using them in unnatural orientations. i.e. the modules were designed to sit a certain way in the car, and I'm wondering if it's fine to put them up on edge instead?


We know that the Tesla modules are incredibly robust (look up videos on YouTube for module disassembly) and used in two orientations in the p100 pack. We also know that once mounted in the Tesla battery pack they cannot move in any direction (each module is pinned into it's own cavity and surrounded by heavy weight steel/aluminium).

I do not believe you'll have any problems using the modules in any orientation in a vehicle so long as you consider vibration and replicate the robust Tesla mounts.

With regards to module voltage it's possible to convert the ~25V modules to ~50V and therefore half the number required in many builds


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## bawfuls (Jan 8, 2018)

sjd.aliyan said:


> What do you mean by unnatural?


I mean their physical orientation within the vehicle, as Kevin surmised.



Kevin Sharpe said:


> We know that the Tesla modules are incredibly robust (look up videos on YouTube for module disassembly) and used in two orientations in the p100 pack. We also know that once mounted in the Tesla battery pack they cannot move in any direction (each module is pinned into it's own cavity and surrounded by heavy weight steel/aluminium).
> 
> I do not believe you'll have any problems using the modules in any orientation in a vehicle so long as you consider vibration and replicate the robust Tesla mounts.
> 
> With regards to module voltage it's possible to convert the ~25V modules to ~50V and therefore half the number required in many builds


This is somewhat reassuring, though I'm still going to hunt for builds that have actually done it successfully without issue. I realize they are in two orientations in the Tesla, but those are both with the largest face down so the individual 18650 cells and cooling system geometry are in the same orientation with regards to gravity.


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

bawfuls said:


> Lots of people seem to have experience with various Tesla battery modules, but I can't find any info about using them in unnatural orientations. i.e. the modules were designed to sit a certain way in the car, and I'm wondering if it's fine to put them up on edge instead?





sjd.aliyan said:


> What do you mean by unnatural?


The "natural" orientation would be the stock orientation, which has the cell axes vertical. In the Model S at least, they are all also oriented with the long dimension of the module lateral.

"On edge" would presumably mean the long dimension (length) of the module still horizontal, but the width vertical, leaving the cell axis horizontal instead of the usual vertical. Right?



Kevin Sharpe said:


> We know that the Tesla modules are incredibly robust (look up videos on YouTube for module disassembly) and used in two orientations in the p100 pack.


What modules in the P100 pack are oriented other than cell axis vertical and long dimension of the module lateral? In an 85 kWh pack 14 modules are identically oriented in a single layer, and two more are stacked in the same orientation at the front, right? The 100 kWh pack has the same number and size of modules (with more cells per module), so where would the orientation difference come in? 

The Model 3 continues with all cylindrical cells standing vertically, but as with the Model S and Model X this is primarily a packaging choice, to form a flat pack.


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

Hi 
Tesla use cylindrical cells - 
The question that I would ask is does each cell have a vent - if they do then it will be necessary to mount them so that the vent is at the top 
If they don't (and I'm fairly sure that they don't) then you can mount them anyway up you fancy


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## Kevin Sharpe (Jul 4, 2011)

brian_ said:


> In an 85 kWh pack 14 modules are identically oriented in a single layer, and two more are stacked in the same orientation at the front, right?


That is correct.



brian_ said:


> The 100 kWh pack has the same number and size of modules (with more cells per module), so where would the orientation difference come in?


One of the two modules in the ‘stack’ is rotated 180 degrees, so we have a ‘top’ and ‘bottom’ face adjacent to one another. See the last photo in this teardown (note the cooling connectors face one another);

https://www.teslarati.com/inside-look-tesla-p100d-battery-pack-teardown/


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## Kevin Sharpe (Jul 4, 2011)

bawfuls said:


> the individual 18650 cells and cooling system geometry are in the same orientation with regards to gravity.


Gravity will have no discernible impact on the pumped heating/cooling system used by Tesla.

It’s also worth noting that Jack at EVTV is using Tesla batteries stood on their side. If you had ever tried to remove a cell from a Tesla module you would understand that they can be used in any orientation


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

Kevin Sharpe said:


> One of the two modules in the ‘stack’ is rotated 180 degrees, so we have a ‘top’ and ‘bottom’ face adjacent to one another. See the last photo in this teardown (note the cooling connectors face one another);
> 
> https://www.teslarati.com/inside-look-tesla-p100d-battery-pack-teardown/


Excellent,  Thanks.

Cells still vertical, but the module is inverted. That indicates that neither the module's structure nor module venting arrangements require a particular side to be up, although the plane of the module is always horizontal in Teslas.



Duncan said:


> The question that I would ask is does each cell have a vent - if they do then it will be necessary to mount them so that the vent is at the top


I don't think so. Looking at the bus plates which connected cells in Tesla modules, within a module cells must be oriented both ways - one end of a group is connected on the same side of the module to what must be the opposite polarity end of the next group (since all groups are in series). So even if there is a cell vent for complete failure, half of the cells face this vent up while the other half face down within a module. That doesn't seem like a problem to me, since this type of vent wouldn't leak, and there would be space to vent into on each end.

And yes, each cell appears to have a vent (from SAE, article in _Automotive Engineering_, Battery guru: Future of 18650 cells unclear beyond Tesla S):


> The Panasonic cells purchased by Tesla are specifically designed for the automaker and feature a Tesla-patented vent system within the end cap.


This is not surprising (either the vent, or Tesla taking credit for it ) because a vent is normal in an 18650 cell.



Kevin Sharpe said:


> Gravity will have no discernible impact on the pumped heating/cooling system used by Tesla.


That makes sense to me - I can't imagine why orientation would matter to forced liquid cooling.


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## LamboEL (Apr 28, 2018)

Hi There Guys,
I currently have a HSV Clubsport in Australia making around 800hp with a supercharged 7 litre LS engine. She is track only so range is not important. Both drag racing and short sprints. Very keen on a conversion to an electric vehicle with even more performance. I have seen the Zombie 222 make some very good performance figures and I am very keen to pursue similar specs. I am an electrical engineer so have a good grounding of power systems although standalone battery only systems are foreign to me. Nothing that a little bit of research would not solve. Budget for components would be $20k to $30k. I am even toying with the idea of running a VFD and an AC motor as the VFD can be programmed and controlled. Has anyone here done this type of project before as I don't want to reinvent the wheel.


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## Kevin Sharpe (Jul 4, 2011)

LamboEL said:


> I am very keen to pursue similar specs.


To be clear, you're looking for ~8 second 1/4 mile times? And you're looking for straight line performance, not the ability to go around corners?


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

Kevin Sharpe said:


> And you're looking for straight line performance, not the ability to go around corners?


It doesn't sound like that...


LamboEL said:


> Both drag racing and short sprints.


I can't imagine what a "sprint" would be if not going around corners.


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## Kevin Sharpe (Jul 4, 2011)

brian_ said:


> I can't imagine what a "sprint" would be if not going around corners.


The Zombie 222 that the OP mentioned is primarily used for straight-line work and afaik is not competitive in hillclimb or short duration track events (what we would typically call "sprint" racing in Europe). Obviously the requirements for straight-line and track racing are very different, hence my question.


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## LamboEL (Apr 28, 2018)

Thanks for your replies guys. By Sprint I meant hill climb or 3 to 4 lap dash.


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## Kevin Sharpe (Jul 4, 2011)

LamboEL said:


> Thanks for your replies guys. By Sprint I meant hill climb or 3 to 4 lap dash.


Thanks for the clarification 

I would start here and see how the Tesla powered Cobra's performance compares with your expectations.

Note the comments re Tesla cooling issues and the proposal to consider a dual motor setup.

Also take a look at the Tesla powered r32 Skyline (here) which will be used for Sprints I believe.


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

The Cobra and the Skyline both use large rear drive units.

If considering one of the Tesla Model S/X small drive units, have a look at the discussion _Tesla Small Drive Unit_, too.



Kevin Sharpe said:


> Also take a look at the Tesla powered r32 Skyline (here) which will be used for Sprints I believe.


Chris's Skyline is to be "drift ready", and is being presented in the magazine articles as a drift car but sure, I suppose that's sprint-like power demand.


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## Kevin Sharpe (Jul 4, 2011)

brian_ said:


> The Cobra and the Skyline both use large rear drive units.


The Cobra developers are considering a dual motor setup in the future. It's possible two small Tesla motors would build a more competitive sprint car because of the weight and cooling advantages.

Today we only really have data from the Cobra. By the end of this year we will have data from multiple Tesla based conversions.


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## Elkanah20 (Nov 14, 2018)

going WAY back to the first couple of pages regarding car recommendations... you know what car would be an AWESOME conversion if you could find one? an opel GT! it's like a baby corvette


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

Elkanah20 said:


> going WAY back to the first couple of pages regarding car recommendations... you know what car would be an AWESOME conversion if you could find one? an opel GT! it's like a baby corvette


Awesome styling, coolest retractable headlights ever... and an ordinary chassis (although perhaps a good one for the time). At least the EV conversion would get rid of the uninspired engine.

This seems like a good candidate for the popular approach among mega-dollar custom car builders, in which modern chassis components and a custom frame get a classic body placed on them; however, it could still be fun with just an EV conversion and some chassis tuning if the battery mass could be kept light enough, low enough, and central enough. There are not a lot of good places to put battery packs, although the bottom of the parcel shelf area might be good, the fuel tank location is a usable box shape (although in the wrong place, behind the axle), and the engine location is available if the motor can be placed in the transmission tunnel.

If all you want is the style, it is apparently possible to buy a complete fiberglass body shell. The real GT is steel; these are just copies probably intended for drag racing... in the one-piece the doors are not even separate panels.

For anyone considering working with the original chassis of an Opel GT, it looks to me like the GT's rear suspension, from the Kadett B, is the same as the related Vauxhaull/Chevrolet Chevette.


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## mdot (Nov 18, 2018)

Hello everyone, I just signed up for the forum, and have some 101 questions!


Me and a buddy have been reading about EV conversions, but there's really so much info about so many things out there that it's really hard to figure out what is the most practical at the moment. We've got a lot of mechanical experience. We'd like to start out cheap and then upgrade as we go. So:


1. What are the best low-cost, good-output motors? Used is great. Is a forklift motor strong enough to get a average-weight car up a mountain road at 35+ mph?


2. What are good old-model donor cars? We want something with a reliable suspension system so that it will last.

3. Would it be feasible to use 4 truck alternators as individual-wheel motors? Mechanically we'd have to gut the drivetrain and fabricate something for the driveshafts--not asking about that, but from an electrical standpoint?


Thank you!!


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## PStechPaul (May 1, 2012)

Alternators are essentially synchronous three phase motors with a diode bridge, so you would need to remove the diodes and use VFDs to operate them as motors. Since the wheels do not turn at the same speed (except when moving straight), the motors would need to be driven based on some sort of torque control. Alternators are very inefficient, perhaps 70% or less, compared to 90-95% for a good AC motor. And they are designed to operate at several thousand RPM, whereas the wheels turn at several hundred RPM, so there will be very low torque at normal speeds without some sort of speed reduction or transmission.


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## manu_cyb (Jan 2, 2019)

Hi guys,
Read some threads on the forum and they are all so interesting.
However, I am not sure I am on the right forum since my goal is to convert one of my 2wd ICE cars into a 4wd PHEV. Unfortunately the infrastructure is not ready for EV in my area, so I still need the ICE but at least I'm considering to use it as less as possible during the short city trips.
So I identified several options for this project and all of them have their pros and cons
- use parts bought from distict places (electric motor, a differential and driveshafts to the rear wheels, batteries, controller, charger)
- instead of motor, differential and driveshafts to use elecric wheels
- use a complete rear axle and maybe even some other components from a hybrid car with a similar setup: I noticed there are some major manufacturer that already have a final product (some of them already fitted to cars): GKN, ZF, Bosch, etc...
- buy a wracked Leaf/Zoe or other cheap EV and try to adapt the entire system to my rear wheels

The expectation for the final output is:
- to be able to drive as ZEV for 60-100 km at city speed limit usually in heavy traffic
- to be able to use both the ICE & electric engine in the same time when needed (best effort: the acceleration perormance to be considerably improved by the electric motor)
- to have only one acceleration method: the foot pedal (not a separate acceleration input for the electric engine)
- the ESP to work in all driving modes (including traction control that sometimes should cut the power even if the acceleration pedal is pressed)
- the car should be able to go also on high speed using the ICE (above 160 km/h) without damaging the added components
- use regenertive braking (best effort to be able to set the level of recharge/braking when the car is moving but no pedal is presed - e.g. while going downhill to recharge as much as possible)
- plug in charging capability, preferably with more than one plug type (regular socket and also fast charge)

So...a lot of questions 
First - any idea, advice, worry, complaint, etc is highly appreciated and welcomed.
Do you know if is it any similar project described in this forum?
Can anybody at least guess-timate the value of the parts in any of the mentioned configuration?
I have several options for the car to be modified but my first choice is a 2011 Toyota iQ 1.4D-4D with manual transmission. I am ready to sacrifice one of the rear seats (maybe both if really neded). Pretty small car so comments/hints on this could be interesting.

One more comment onmy side regarding the ZEV expected capabilites: there will not be actually ZEV since the ICE should run (even if at idle RPM) in order to have power for steering, brake, AC, heat, etc..

Thank you!


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## GeneralElectric (Feb 3, 2019)

Hi everyone!

First newbie post ... I got bitten by the EV bug last year some time (I think one of Damien Maguire's youtube videos caused the first infection) and been running a high fever ever since. Been doing lots of reading, and stumbled upon this fantastic forum a couple of days ago. I have soaked up most of the wiki and a number of threads, and I thought I'd introduce my project, and then let loose a couple of questions 

My intention is to build an uncomplicated, usable daily driver. I have already purchased the donor vehicle: a 1990 Mercedes 190E "Baby Benz". Why this car? Firstly, I like Mercs and have owned half a dozen of 80s and 90s models over the years. So I know their strengths and weaknesses, where to get parts etc. Originally I wanted to convert my W124 coupe, but I think the 190E is going to be a better choice as it is substantially lighter (less than 1100kg empty) and hopefully it won't gain more than 50kg or so in the conversion. That's probably still not optimal for an EV, but I figure if I am going to spend a whole lot of time and money on this project, I want it to be a car that I actually like and enjoy driving. The 190 also has an excellent drag coefficient (for its time). My particular car is in really good nick - it has just under 200k kms, but belonged to an elderly gentleman for 18 years who obviously treated it like gold. 

My range requirement would be around 70-80 km (100 would be great), and it should be able to cruise at 100-120 km/h. I want to keep the manual transmission and clutch for ease of use. Having owned old cars practically all my life, I'm reasonably experienced mechanically, the electric stuff I'll hopefully learn as I go. Budget is an issue - this is a hobby project so I hope to not spend an arm and a leg. At the same time, I am realising that buying at least some of the components from one of the kit suppliers might cost a bit more but will probably save me a lot of time and stress - no doubt there will be enough challenges in the build without adding more unknown factors and potential compatibility problems. So I am starting to lean towards biting the bullet and sticking with a "tried and tested" solution, rather than doing it all from scratch. 

1/ So here's my first question. I have been offered the following solution as an option:
- 96V, 28kw Asynchronous AC motor (60kw peak)
- 550 amp controller
- 30 Calb 160 Ah batteries totalling 15 kwh and 96V
What do you think? Do these specs sound about right for my needs? 

2/ From what I have been reading, the Calb LiFePO batteries seem like a popular choice. My other option might be to try find an OEM battery pack, although where I live (Spain) there are not may EVs yet, so the possibilities would be limited, I think the Nissan Leaf and the Renault Zoe are the only EVs present in any kind of numbers here. Would there be any real advantage or disadvantage in going for a Nissan pack rather than the Calbs? I assume the OEM energy density would be better, but I have noticed that LiFePO battery specs give a pretty broad temperature range for charging and use, which I understand is a bit more critical with OEM batteries from Tesla and Nissan. So basically, if I understand it correctly, you would get more efficient batteries with OEM but the trade-off is more complexity (heating/cooling required, more critical BMS etc), and a more difficult build. Is that more or less correct? 

3/ With budget in mind, I am also still considering a DC forklift motor, as many people seem to have gotten good results with these. (Braking regen would be nice but is not a critical priority as I don't do much city driving). Obviously this route would be more complicated (sourcing a motor, finding and matching a controller for it etc). Is this still a viable option? Or are new AC motors so much better that I would be crazy even considering an old DC? For the same outlay in batteries, would there be a noticable performance difference between AC and DC?

4/ Finally ... a critical point is going to be getting the conversion street legal. From what I read, in Europe this is generally more tricky than in the US, and I suspect that Spain might be super hard. There just isn't the culture for this kind of DIY stuff here, so EVs of this type are practically (totally?) nonexistent, and I am hearing some pretty scary stories about the amount of paperwork and tests I will need to go through. Has anyone on this forum ever legalised an EV in Spain? Or know of someone who has? This is actually the aspect of the project that worries me the most... But I trust that even this "dog with cartwheel eyes" can be conquered eventually. 

Anyway, sorry for the long ramble I really look forward to replies from some of the more experienced people here. Thanks for a really great forum!


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## cake (Mar 12, 2019)

Hello, 


We are doing a survey about your attitudes and preferences toward electric vehicles. 

We mainly targeting EVs owners or potential EVs owners, living in U.S and Canada

It would be great if you can spend approximately 5 mins fill this out. Or if you know any friends, I’d appreciate if you can share this link with them. 

http://queensbusiness.qualtrics.com/jfe/form/SV_6hC7MdgcxR8F3bT


Thank you so much and have a great day😊


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## Electrovair (Jun 16, 2015)

There is a thread on here by someone converting an Opel GT.
https://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showthread.php/matts-1970-opel-gt-project-log-200587.html


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## Tremelune (Dec 8, 2009)

GeneralElectric said:


> Anyway, sorry for the long ramble I really look forward to replies from some of the more experienced people here. Thanks for a really great forum!


Start a thread! You'll get more eyeballs. I love the 190E.


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## olegil (Jan 7, 2012)

GeneralElectric said:


> Anyway, sorry for the long ramble I really look forward to replies from some of the more experienced people here. Thanks for a really great forum!


I have but two inputs:
1: I STRONGLY agree on the choice of car. Much lighter than you'd expect (unless you know the history of the 190), and a Merc is usually easy to work on. Plenty of space under the hood.

2: Do consider bolting a leaf or tesla drive unit direct to the rear subframe, using a third party controller card (instead of the diff). Dropping the subframe is easy, and this gives you absurd amounts of space for batteries etc throughout the transmission tunnel, petrol tank and transmission space. You'll probably end up with a frunk (front trunk) just like a Tesla. Transmission tunnel is quite large due to having space for both the axle and the exhaust system.


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## GeneralElectric (Feb 3, 2019)

olegil said:


> I have but two inputs:
> 1: I STRONGLY agree on the choice of car. Much lighter than you'd expect (unless you know the history of the 190), and a Merc is usually easy to work on. Plenty of space under the hood.
> 
> 2: Do consider bolting a leaf or tesla drive unit direct to the rear subframe, using a third party controller card (instead of the diff). Dropping the subframe is easy, and this gives you absurd amounts of space for batteries etc throughout the transmission tunnel, petrol tank and transmission space. You'll probably end up with a frunk (front trunk) just like a Tesla. Transmission tunnel is quite large due to having space for both the axle and the exhaust system.





Hi Olegil and Tremelune - 

Thanks very much for your replies. Unfortunately I have had to give up on this project. The reasons are purely adminstrative - turns out that in Spain, legalising a project of this nature is difficult and prohibitively expensive, as you are required to do a string of technical tests at accredited laboratories (I have received quotes ranging from 11,000 to 35,000 Euros). This is obviously nowhere near viable, and is the reason why the fledgling electric DIY scene in Spain has died completely. 

I've sold on the 190E and will probably get a 2nd hand Leaf eventually. Not quite the same, but I can´t see another option right now


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## olegil (Jan 7, 2012)

GeneralElectric said:


> Hi Olegil and Tremelune -
> 
> Thanks very much for your replies. Unfortunately I have had to give up on this project. The reasons are purely adminstrative - turns out that in Spain, legalising a project of this nature is difficult and prohibitively expensive, as you are required to do a string of technical tests at accredited laboratories (I have received quotes ranging from 11,000 to 35,000 Euros). This is obviously nowhere near viable, and is the reason why the fledgling electric DIY scene in Spain has died completely.
> 
> I've sold on the 190E and will probably get a 2nd hand Leaf eventually. Not quite the same, but I can´t see another option right now


Yeah, this is an issue in Norway also. I know some students managed to get a WV bus converted, as it is older than 1972 when the automotive safety standard came about. So it seems that in Norway at least, something like a WV Beetle is the most plausible conversion. I have plans for a tractor that doesn't have to be road legal, so I'm just waiting for a bit of spare time.


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## bubbleboba (Aug 5, 2020)

olegil said:


> Yeah, this is an issue in Norway also. I know some students managed to get a WV bus converted, as it is older than 1972 when the automotive safety standard came about. So it seems that in Norway at least, something like a WV Beetle is the most plausible conversion. I have plans for a tractor that doesn't have to be road legal, so I'm just waiting for a bit of spare time.


Looks like ive found the thread for me!!!!!!!!!!


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## markevansva (Jan 24, 2021)

I’d like to make my 2003 Porsche Boxster an EV what the best auto shop to do this?


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## TonyDet (12 mo ago)

Andrew Carson said:


> *Re: I want to build an EV! Where do I start?*
> 
> OK so I will start here and you can tell me if I am even barking up the right tree. I am a total N00B when it comes to electric cars, I think the closest I've come is the battery pack that came with my legos! But here is my "plan" I want to convert a 1980's alfa rameo spider veloce(read: cool sports car) it has a very good wind profile, a large engine compartment, and a big trunk that I plan to fill with batteries. the other plus is it is a sports car suspension so the weight shouldn't be an issue, it's already a heavy car coming in at almost a ton(i know heavy for a 2 door sports car) but it's also very stable and can handle a heavy load(i've pulled a 10k boat with it) I want to go AC motor so I can capture regenerative braking, and I want to link it to the 5-speed transmission that is currently installed(not sure if this is wise) I'm going to be building in the next 2-3 years as I am currently in grad school and have ZERO money. also has anyone looked into buying the "replacement" batteries for the prius or other hybrid car, it seems to me that this should be cheaper than going for a single custom battery. also I would like to look into adding solar to the hood and trunk to capture this lovely florida sun and put it to good use. Also has anyone looked into adding a small 2 or 4 stroke "lawn mower" type engine hooked to a generator to extend range, i mean a 1/4 gallon engine running for an hour to fast charge a battery pack sounds like fuel efficent to me. WHEEW thanks for any insight you have!


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## TonyDet (12 mo ago)

[QUOTE="TonyDet, post: 1084062, member: 280352"

I was thinking along a similar track, especially with the small engine to have as a standby generator. BUT I already have a whole vehicle, so why throw out the engine and get another with no financial gain. How did you go? Any info and guidance from you or anyone else is greatly appreciated.


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## TonyDet (12 mo ago)

TonyDet said:


> TonyDet said:
> 
> 
> > [QUOTE="TonyDet, post: 1084062, member: 280352"
> ...


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## Sparky Automotive (Jan 30, 2021)

rbgrn said:


> For all new members and first timers, here is the basic guide to getting started.
> 
> If you haven't already you will need to Register to post in our forums
> 
> ...


You could try here, bodyshells also available








Electric Tricycle Rolling Chassis Kit | eBay


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## Kraken (2 d ago)

Is there any companies in EU/UK who makes custom EV builds proffesionally? I am trying to build a dimma widebody pug 306 with a backseat delete since the engine bay is so small. Want to put out high hp (depends on weight) and make it AWD. At 1200 kg with a combustion engine I wanted 500 hp but I'm curios what is possible to build with a full EV conversion. No budget cap. Email me at [email protected] if I don't see forum messages. It's a stealthy rally inspired build because of the widebody.


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## remy_martian (Feb 4, 2019)

European Classic Cars in Wales is the one I know of.


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## Kraken (2 d ago)

remy_martian said:


> European Classic Cars in Wales is the one I know of.


Found a builder that can convert it to awd with 650 hp from a tesla conversion. Price is 60 to 80k £. It will not be on UK roads anyway so i might go all out here. Don't know how heavy the car will be but I will do 0-100 km/h in 3 seconds and spin on all 4 wheels. Whatdo you guys think? Stealthy rally inspired build. Will retrim interior to 90s recaro including doors and dash (black cloth and alcantra with red stiching and simple pattern. Trims for dash will be carbon fibre.
Ultimate winter car for Norway.
I think it's safer and fun to do a ev conversion vs trying to fit a audi sports quattro 5 cylinder turbo built motor and gearbox with a Frankenstein solution to get 4 x4. The sound of that 5 cylinder is amazing but there is lag with 500 hp setup.


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