# 150kw (200hp) AC Motor+Inverter 7,000$ USD



## davidru (Apr 12, 2009)

What about the GM inverter? It's already designed to drive both motors (yep, it's really 2 controllers in one box), and it's $1k.


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## Jan (Oct 5, 2009)

Any thoughts...?

I want that motor! How? How? The inverter comes later, and can be a mes dea or whatever. But a 60kW continues motor of only 43 kgs for 1500 euro's.... That's a game changer. (Nice expression btw). But how? How? How! Where?


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## Bowser330 (Jun 15, 2008)

Nice PDF based on the hybrid with good shots of the transmission and motors within it...

http://www.emergencytrainingsolutions.com/downloads/ERGs/Chevy Tahoe - GMC Yukon ERG.pdf

I would make sure before buying the transmission for 3500$ that it is infact the EVT transmission and not just another GM transmission...


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## Inkidu (May 7, 2010)

Thanks for the link.

I have been eyeballin this motor also.

The Remy's White Paper seems to say all the right things.

Off the shelf 

SAE bolt pattern 

Remy is a large company. 

Goes to show what could happen to AC motor prices if they were mass produced. From what I understand the controllers would benefit even 
more from mass production. (complete newbie) 
Another ex. the new $4000 Curtis AC 50 motor and controller combo.

Side note. from the link

The Drive Motor / Generator Control Module performs the following operations:

•Inverts 300 volts DC to AC for vehicle propulsion

•Inverts 300 volts AC to DC for Hybrid battery recharging

•Provides 300 volts to Air Conditioning Compressor

Converts 300 volts DC to 42 volts DC for the Electronic Power Steering (EPS) system operation

•Converts 300 volts DC to 12 volts DC for conventional 12 volt accessory operation

Makes you wonder why the ICE is even there?????

Maybe one day when LiFePO4 are little less expensive and people could get

use to the idea of giving up a little cargo space.(or maybe the space taken

up by a V8 engine and a fuel tank)

Did you notice the tiny amount of space they allocated for the batteries. ???

Someone please buy one of these motors and post.

Thanks for any help.


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## Yabert (Feb 7, 2010)

Wow.... really interesting!

120 KW continuous and 300KW peak in a 75-80 kg package at 3700$!!!!!! I need one!

Sériously it's probably more a 60kw motor continuous and 82 peak, but it's always interesting.


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## esoneson (Sep 1, 2008)

Sure does make you wonder why they didn't just rip out the ICE, seal up the transmission with a face plate and fill up the space with batteries.

You'd end up with a decent range EV.

I don't want anybody to get into any accidents or anything like that but.....I can't wait 'till these start to hit the auto junk yards.

Eric


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## Jan (Oct 5, 2009)

Why wait for accidents? If this is true, it's cheap enough. How can you get one? Just one.


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## Jimdear2 (Oct 12, 2008)

I have som questions and comments. Excuse me if I am restateing something already covered.

I don't know, are you all missing the fact that the motors in the transmission as installed in the truck can only push the vehicle to 24 MPH. So converting the truck to full electric is a no go without a additional power source of some sort.

The motors removed from the trans then being recased really sound exciting if they turn fast enough. Does anyone know what rpm they turn?

Most OEM transmission prices are exchange. There may be a substantial core charge.

Has anyone checked with Remy to see if there is a variation on this motor available that would be more suited to DIY EV?


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## Inkidu (May 7, 2010)

"I don't know, are you all missing the fact that the motors in the transmission as installed in the truck can only push the vehicle to 24 MPH."

The vehicle is no doubt a behemoth. 

Points I was trying to get across.

1) I have a feeling (2) continuous 60 Kw motors could move this thing quicker

than 24mph if given a larger battery pack and possible a more capable inverter. (wouldn't be very quick but it is a big vehicle)

Granted the batteries tend to get excessively heavy.

2) I just still have the feeling that the powers that be still want us to get 

our power from the pump even though the car is painted "green"

I don't want to get to far from the subject i.e. a stable of very good

motors. Mainly because they might be relatively cheap and 

available.

Especially like the idea of the high torque version teamed up to the 

tritium. Seems that would be a good match. 

Thanks for any help.


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## few2many (Jun 23, 2009)

Maybe the motors are only programmed to 24pmh, it is a hybrid after all. The two 60kw motors and a good controller should get a smaller ev well over 24.


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## Bowser330 (Jun 15, 2008)

Jimdear2 said:


> I have som questions and comments. Excuse me if I am restateing something already covered.
> 
> I don't know, are you all missing the fact that the motors in the transmission as installed in the truck can only push the vehicle to 24 MPH. So converting the truck to full electric is a no go without a additional power source of some sort.
> 
> ...


I think the capacity of the battery pack would be reduced too much if the car was "allowed" to go faster than 24mph...the motors, from the data sheet i provided in post#1, are very capable..

I am actually rethinking the re casing of the motors...as others have mentioned...why not leave them in the transmission, maybe remove unnecessary gearing inside and connect the output shaft directly to a rear differential (appropriately geared for the AC motors)

I hear you on core charge, it would be interesting to see how much...I may ask my local mechanic how much it would be to pick one of these up...

I doubt they are different iterations of the 150kw(peak) in my first post, reason being, AMP is an EV company that converts the saturn sky roadster to EV and they ARE using these motors. From what I've read they are using the Chevy Tahoe hybrid motors...I do not think they are sourcing from transmissions as i read they have made a deal directly with Remy to supply them, looks like the big vendors are now making deals in lesser quantities these days...


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## Bowser330 (Jun 15, 2008)

The Drive Motor / Generator Control Module performs the following operations:

•Inverts 300 volts DC to AC for vehicle propulsion

I worry about using the OEM control module only because it may be limiting the max amperage to the motor....we would have to see some data on it to make sure...

The Tritiums are an expensive option...


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## Inkidu (May 7, 2010)

A substantial core charge is an understatement.

I clicked on add to cart to find out.

$3000 !!!

Thats right $3000 for the trans + $3000 for a core charge.

Hope this helps.


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## davidru (Apr 12, 2009)

What a drag. Before I posted the original info on the inverter, I did "add to cart", but didn't try that with the tranny. There is no core on the inverter. My original interest was to drive a couple of the Markobetti/HAL9000 12kW outrunners from the endless sphere forum, so I wasn't too keen on the Remy motors. These inverters are about a half a kilovolt more than that motor needs, however ;+}

I suppose someone with a connection at a dealer could work out a better deal, I dunno. I have found most parts departments to be pretty flexible on core charges.

Wonder if you could extract the motors and reassemble the tranny and return it? Naaah, there must be some evaluation procedure they do before crediting you for the core.



Inkidu said:


> A substantial core charge is an understatement.
> 
> I clicked on add to cart to find out.
> 
> ...


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## Bowser330 (Jun 15, 2008)

davidru said:


> What a drag. Before I posted the original info on the inverter, I did "add to cart", but didn't try that with the tranny. There is no core on the inverter. My original interest was to drive a couple of the Markobetti/HAL9000 12kW outrunners from the endless sphere forum, so I wasn't too keen on the Remy motors. These inverters are about a half a kilovolt more than that motor needs, however ;+}
> 
> I suppose someone with a connection at a dealer could work out a better deal, I dunno. I have found most parts departments to be pretty flexible on core charges.
> 
> Wonder if you could extract the motors and reassemble the tranny and return it? Naaah, there must be some evaluation procedure they do before crediting you for the core.


Drag, sure, but not the end of this by any means...so the price goes up by an additional 1500$ (3000$/2 motors)

8500$ for 200hp AC motor + Inverter/controller...sounds pretty damn good to me..for comparison the AC50 package is 50hp and nearly 5000$


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## efan (Aug 27, 2009)

hey I was checking out the Toyota Highlander hybrid specs...
and here's what they say about their drive 

*Electric Motor* 




Function: Drive front wheels, regeneration during braking 










Electric motor type: Permanent magnet motor 










Power output: 167 hp (123 kW) @ 4500 rpm 










Maximum torque: 247 lb.-ft. @ 0-1500 rpm 










Maximum voltage: AC 650V
the toyota runs on 288v


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## Jan (Oct 5, 2009)

The inverter of the GM is also a DC-DC converter for 40V and 12V. And all that, only for a 1000 bcks. 

It must be (besides the battery pack) the power limiting factor. 

But why put TWO motors in and limited the power at all?

Would be great if JR from evtv took some experiments with this stuff.


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## Jan (Oct 5, 2009)

I'm willing to cooperate financially in an experiment with this stuff. If there are enough who are willing, one trustable member could buy it, try it out, and if it's not worth it, we all lost some. But if it's what it looks like it is, we get a part of our money back and can buy it ourselves.


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## Franky.EV (Feb 27, 2010)

Is it possible, there is a motor and a generator and something to switch only one of them ?


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## Jan (Oct 5, 2009)

Franky.EV said:


> Is it possible, there is a motor and a generator and something to switch only one of them ?


Why a motor AND a generator? As far as I know an AC motor is just as good in generating as in proppelling.


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## efan (Aug 27, 2009)

from what i understand, the tahoe hybrid has two 60kw electric motors, pick power ~82kw. if we had to use a different controller with these motors, how would they be wired since it is not one 150kw motor?


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## efan (Aug 27, 2009)

here's another view of how the transmission might look 

http://0.tqn.com/d/alternativefuels/1/0/Y/E/-/-/Two-mode_transmission.jpg


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## Jan (Oct 5, 2009)

Can someone explain these parts to me:

1. What is this disk? A gearing reducer? Are the two motors different in RPM behaviour? 

2. This is the final automatic transmission?

3. Also a gearing reducer? Why so many?

4. THis is just a flywheel? I suppose it's clutchless being automatic? Or is it a automatic clutch orso?


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## Bowser330 (Jun 15, 2008)

you take the motors out of the transmission and get new motor housings made, you also have the machine shop figure out the shaft situation on the ends of the motor.

The motor, per the data sheet, in post#1, should be the HVH250 which is 60kw cont. 150kw peak, any other figure you see was probably due to the GM Tahoe OEM inverter limiting the power to/from the e-motor...

Get a Tritium inverter (5000$) and now you have a 150kw capable inverter and a 150kw capable motor..you wont need the OEM spec inverter, albeit its cheaper, but its also underpowered...


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## Jan (Oct 5, 2009)

Bowser330 said:


> you take the motors out of the transmission and get new motor housings made, you also have the machine shop figure out the shaft situation on the ends of the motor.
> 
> The motor, per the data sheet, in post#1, should be the HVH250 which is 60kw cont. 150kw peak, any other figure you see was probably due to the GM Tahoe OEM inverter limiting the power to/from the e-motor...
> 
> Get a Tritium inverter (5000$) and now you have a 150kw capable inverter and a 150kw capable motor..you wont need the OEM spec inverter, albeit its cheaper, but its also underpowered...


Why two motors if the inverter is even underpowered for one?


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## efan (Aug 27, 2009)

may be i am confused, but the 150kw peak power motors are rated as 100kw continuous...but i suppose the only difference between the ones called HVH250 HT High Torque, and HVH250 HT High Flow Cooling, is the cooling and the operating voltage


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## Jan (Oct 5, 2009)

Here's more:

http://alternativefuels.about.com/o...ango-Hybrids/Two-mode-tranny-cutaway-view.htm

So, the two motors are seperately engagable. And they booth have a fixed planetary gearing to increase the torque. My guess is that these planetary gearing is so designed that the motors are at their top rpm at 45 mph. 

I just don't believe they build a drive system with an underpowerd inverter, an underpowerd batterypack for one motor, and then add a second motor to top it off.

The problem is -if I'm correct- that this transmission alone delivers a lot of torque, enormous amounts of torque, but very little final rpm's. 

How could that be changed?

Increase the voltage, so the top rpm increases accoordingly? Or change the planetary gearings? 

I think this transmission and the inverter has the potential to build a very cool EV. It even has a build in DC-DC with two voltages. It would be a waste to disassemble it just to rebuild the motors.

And this complete 150kW package with seperatly engangable motors, and dc-dc converter, and automatic transmission, costs less than $8000... 

What is wrong?


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## Jan (Oct 5, 2009)

There's even a wiki about the system:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_Hybrid_Cooperation


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## Jan (Oct 5, 2009)

It's a complicated little bugger. So, the two motors are completely differently geared. One for low speed high torque, with the second one only as generator with higher rpm's. And as the speed increases booth motors act as one, being both a motor and generator and if the speed inceases more the first 'low speed motor' leaves it completely to the second that is geared for these high speeds. The control box (I suppose the inverter) chooses the most economical power distrubution to the two motors. It will use the most efficient RPM range of the two motors. 

Perfect. And I can't find anywhere that the inverter is underpowerd, everywhere they talk about two 60kW continues motors. The 40-45mph border is only for electric driving only. The second motor turns at that point from just being a generator into an second motor. 

It's the perfect electric drive train.


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## efan (Aug 27, 2009)

hey Jan, I agree with you that both the motors and the gm inverter will be usable in a conversion, but IMO it would be better to take the motors out of the transmission. 
I am not too sure how exactly the inverter for two motors work, so maybe some one can explain it to me. If the chevy has a 300v pack, in order to run both motors at their co continuous power of 60kw, would you be pulling 200a from the battery or 400a?


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## Franky.EV (Feb 27, 2010)

The WiKi page states :


The technology is referred to as "two-mode" hybrid transmission due to the ability to extend the abilities of both electrical and mechanical paths of power.[5] The two modes of operation are:


*Input-split mode* — At low speeds, the vehicle can move with either the electric motor/generators, the internal combustion engine, or both, making it a so-called full hybrid. All accessories will still remain functioning on electric power, and the engine can restart instantly if needed. *In this mode, one of the motor/generators (M/G 1) acts as a generator, while the other operates as a motor (M/G 2).* This mode is operational for the two continuously variable ranges (_input split and compound split_) of the transmission.
*Compound-split mode* — At higher speeds or heavier loads, the internal combustion engine always runs, and the system uses advanced technologies like Active Fuel Management and late intake valve closing to optimize engine and fuel efficiency.


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## Jan (Oct 5, 2009)

efan said:


> hey Jan, I agree with you that both the motors and the gm inverter will be usable in a conversion, but IMO it would be better to take the motors out of the transmission.
> I am not too sure how exactly the inverter for two motors work, so maybe some one can explain it to me. If the chevy has a 300v pack, in order to run both motors at their co continuous power of 60kw, would you be pulling 200a from the battery or 400a?


The inverter is build for those two completely differently geared motors. If you take them out, you must recreate a similar planetray gearing system to be able to use the inverter. Why would you do that? This transmission is already a incredible ingenious piece of machine.


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## Inkidu (May 7, 2010)

This trans is begging for an (ev only) aftermarket controller that could control

the clutches and send power to the motors. 

Maybe even installing the remy's bigger motor on the front. (HVH410) 

It would be cool if there was away you could plug the car in to run one of 

the motors and let the other charge the pack.

Could it be done?

Would it be efficient?

It would allow you to get rid of a bulky and heavy in car charger. 

Complete newbie thinking aloud. 

Thanks for any help.


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## Jan (Oct 5, 2009)

Inkidu said:


> This trans is begging for an (ev only) aftermarket controller that could control the clutches and send power to the motors.


It has it's own controller/inverter.



> Maybe even installing the remy's bigger motor on the front. (HVH410)


That's an option. Even more power. But 2 x 60 kW cotinues power and somethin like 175kW peak power is in the EV world already a lot of power.



> It would be cool if there was away you could plug the car in to run one of the motors and let the other charge the pack.


There is nothing that you can plug in. You must add a rectifier, and some electronics to get to the right voltage (300V) from your outlet. Sometimes also called: charger. 

So, yes it could be done. But it is not very efficient, because you can better directly charge your battery pack. Less steps. Every extra step is a loss.


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## Anaerin (Feb 4, 2009)

Inkidu said:


> This trans is begging for an (ev only) aftermarket controller that could control the clutches and send power to the motors.


Pretty much, yeah. Perhaps something like Paul and Sabrina's AC controller (In development at the moment) could be extended for this kind of thing.


Inkidu said:


> It would be cool if there was away you could plug the car in to run one of the motors and let the other charge the pack.


Not really.


Inkidu said:


> Could it be done?


Yes, it would. But...


Inkidu said:


> Would it be efficient?


Not in the slightest. You would have 7 lots of conversion losses in this process, rather than just one:

Single-phase AC -> DC, DC -> 3-Phase AC, 3-Phase AC -> Motor, Friction in Driving Motor, Friction in Generating Motor, Motor -> 3-Phase AC, 3-Phase AC -> DC

Vs.

Single-phase AC -> DC



Inkidu said:


> It would allow you to get rid of a bulky and heavy in car charger.


Given that an AC motor controller (An inverter) is already designed to do rectification both from AND to DC (That's what Regen is, after all), all you need to do is ensure that the power stage of the AC controller is sized to match (or exceed) the power line you are going to connect it to, then when you want to charge you disconnect the motor and connect the mains AC line in it's place, then command "0 RPM" from the controller (In essence). The controller will then use the incoming AC power as "regen power" and charge the batteries with it.

Now, this wouldn't work for a Series Hybrid (As the AC controller would be busy at that point), but for a "plain" BEV, this would work perfectly. It would also eliminate six of the seven lossy energy conversions in your plan. And if you notice, the conversion you need (Single-phase AC -> DC) is in there already, so you're building complexity for the sake of complexity.


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## Inkidu (May 7, 2010)

"It has it's own controller/inverter."

Yes, designed to work with an ICE.

It would seem to me an effective controller/inverter would need to coordinate

on how two motors, that are designed to work in different ways

at different times, work 

"But 2 x 60 kW cotinues power and somethin like 175kW peak power is in the EV world already a lot of power."

The one diagram shows that as one motor is powering the other is 

generating and that changes to and fro. So the trans only puts out the 

power of one motor at a time. 

(suspicion that the trans uses gear ratios to be efficient)

"(Single-phase AC -> DC)" Then why isn't that not done?

I am only remotely trying to figure any of this out and feel free not to answer

directly the ? I have. Links are always nice. Just because my knowledge 

base needs to get much larger to be of much of a contributor. 

Thanks for any help.


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## Jan (Oct 5, 2009)

Inkidu said:


> Yes, designed to work with an ICE. It would seem to me an effective controller/inverter would need to coordinate on how two motors, that are designed to work in different ways at different times, work.
> 
> The one diagram shows that as one motor is powering the other is generating and that changes to and fro. So the trans only puts out the power of one motor at a time.


read the wiki carefully and completely. Not just one or two senteces. It's way more complicated than this. At low speed only one motor works as motar and the other if needed (braking) as a generator. 

I understand that this is becaus of the gearing of the generator motor. The gearing is way beyond my understanding.

When speed increase booth motors can act simultaniously as a motor and if needed as a generator. So you have full power. In top gear, the high torque quits because it can not cope with the hig rpms anymore.


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## Anaerin (Feb 4, 2009)

As a side note, it's kind of difficult to read this, especially as you insist on breaking up every line and inserting 2 newlines where you don't need any. I'm trying to sort it out when I quote your message, but it would be much easier if you allowed the edit box to handle the wrapping for you.



Inkidu said:


> "(Single-phase AC -> DC)" Then why isn't that not done?


Single-phase AC is (probably) what you have running in your walls at home. That is, essentially, what the charger is. The reason it's not integrated into the inverter is that (up until the Volt) there have been few plug-in BEVs, and the AC inverters we're using for conversions have all been designed for industrial purposes, running off industrial AC, or for golf carts, which are made to run over a small area and have large stationary chargers to recharge the whole fleet of vehicles.


Inkidu said:


> I am only remotely trying to figure any of this out and feel free not to answer directly the ? I have. Links are always nice. Just because my knowledge base needs to get much larger to be of much of a contributor.


That's a remarkably wise course of action. There are, after all, no stupid questions, and the ability to ask also shows the ability and willingness to learn.


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## Inkidu (May 7, 2010)

Thanks for the input.

Please add more to the info section and/or provide links.

I have a feeling you will find more and more people like me (interest in ev but

with only rudimentary knowledge of physics/electricity, and mechanics 

especially when it directly pertains to ev) as ev become more popular.

I enjoy reading the threads and links.

Thanks for any help.


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## efan (Aug 27, 2009)

Jan said:


> I understand that this is becaus of the gearing of the generator motor. The gearing is way beyond my understanding.
> 
> When speed increase booth motors can act simultaniously as a motor and if needed as a generator. So you have full power. In top gear, the high torque quits because it can not cope with the hig rpms anymore.


I dont understand it either, but I suspect all the complicated changes between motor and generator are done by a computer different than the controller. I am not sure, but if thats the case, I think it will be easier the just use the controller and motors without the transmission. I am not sure tho, I am trying to find some reading on it.


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## Jan (Oct 5, 2009)

efan said:


> I dont understand it either, but I suspect all the complicated changes between motor and generator are done by a computer different than the controller. I am not sure, but if thats the case, I think it will be easier the just use the controller and motors without the transmission. I am not sure tho, I am trying to find some reading on it.


The motor/controler is one unit. No, I think it's a waste of clever german enginering to disasemble it. This setup -seems to me- gives you the highest torque, the most power, as efficient as possible with a gunning gearing mechanism.

The only problem is to make it work without an engine. Or maybe with a small cheap electric motor.


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## efan (Aug 27, 2009)

If anyone is interested I found a seller of a used Escalade Hybrid transmission. (AOD,6.0L,2/09,AWD,HYBRID.6,524 MILES) as you can see tho its a 4x4 and not 4x2 he is asking for $2900 plus you pay freight


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## Jan (Oct 5, 2009)

efan said:


> If anyone is interested I found a seller of a used Escalade Hybrid transmission. (AOD,6.0L,2/09,AWD,HYBRID.6,524 MILES) as you can see tho its a 4x4 and not 4x2 he is asking for $2900 plus you pay freight


Tempted... 

But I have no idea how to make it work. Better someone with real big brains tries it.

Does he have the power and generator control modules, and the cooling unit too? And does he have any pictures?


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## Inkidu (May 7, 2010)

For anyone tempted.

I would think that there is a possibility that the motors are wound differently. 

I am sure that more than an order of a 1000 of these motors was placed. 

Therefore the purchaser could very easily specify the exact motor they would 

want. Given that the motors dynamically work with/off each other 

might should at least prompt an interested buyer into what the exact spec's 

of each individual motor are.

Side note.

Could this trans be trying to in some way duplicate a "2 speed"? That is are 

the motors efficiently setup to work at one gear ratio or another.

Complete newbie thinking aloud.

Hope this helps and thanks for any help.


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## efan (Aug 27, 2009)

here's another teaser ...


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## aeroscott (Jan 5, 2008)

I was thinking 1 motor is working off the ring gear the other on the sun gear , planetary gear set yielding almost infinite ratios . I have not seen good pt of the trans .ps close to the size of a prius motor .


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## Jan (Oct 5, 2009)

efan said:


> If anyone is interested I found a seller of a used Escalade Hybrid transmission. (AOD,6.0L,2/09,AWD,HYBRID.6,524 MILES) as you can see tho its a 4x4 and not 4x2 he is asking for $2900 plus you pay freight


Any news? If it's a wrecked car, he should have all the necessary parts.


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## efan (Aug 27, 2009)

Jan said:


> Any news? If it's a wrecked car, he should have all the necessary parts.


Its a wrecked car, but i havent contacted him back for papers or other info since I am a college student and cant afford it right now...i can give you the contact info if want it


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## Jan (Oct 5, 2009)

efan said:


> Its a wrecked car, but i havent contacted him back for papers or other info since I am a college student and cant afford it right now...i can give you the contact info if want it


Thanks Efan. I first try to get some information from germany, my neighbours.


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## efan (Aug 27, 2009)

hey Jan, earlier you mentioned that you could use one of these motors with a MES DEA inverter...is that possible? what are the available AC controllers that can work with these motors other than the Tritium?


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## Jan (Oct 5, 2009)

efan said:


> hey Jan, earlier you mentioned that you could use one of these motors with a MES DEA inverter...is that possible? what are the available AC controllers that can work with these motors other than the Tritium?


In theory it's possible. Almost every AC inverter manufacturer says theirs will learn how to control your motor. Of course the voltage and amperage range must be somewhat the same. Your eventual power is the multiplication of the least of those two. I guess.

In that power range I don't no any other manufacturer.


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## Jan (Oct 5, 2009)

efan said:


> Its a wrecked car, but i havent contacted him back for papers or other info since I am a college student and cant afford it right now...i can give you the contact info if want it


Hi Efan, I don't get any usefull info from BMW and/or Merc. But I'm still tempted, Can I get the contact info, to find out what parts have survived the crash?


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## efan (Aug 27, 2009)

Jan said:


> Can I get the contact info, to find out what parts have survived the crash?


I sent you a pm with the info.


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## Jan (Oct 5, 2009)

I’ve been puzzling with the info about the transmission. Especially with the wiki information. I redraw pictures of the different transmission states in a way I can understand it more. 

For your (anyone) understanding: An as motor acting motor is dark green. As a generator light green. The sun gear and its axle of the planetary gears is yellow. The planet gears, the carrier and its axle are purple. The ring gear is read. And the clutches are blue.

But if a part is fixed by a clutch, and it doesn’t rotate anymore, it’s dark grey. And if a clutch fixes the gears as one synchronous rotating object, it’s orange. 

My conclusion is that the automatic shift states are of no use. Only one motor is acting as a motor, and the other is always acting as a generator. They are used to shift seamlessly from gear to gear, and give a bit of extra power now and then.

The fixed gears are a different story. It’s clear to me how fixed gear 1 and 3 work. In booth gears the two motors are synchronous acting as a motor/generator. And the only difference is that in gear 1 the last planetary gearing works like a torque converter with a ratio of 3.76:1. And in 3th gear there is one solid axle operating in a ratio of 1:1.

The 4th gear isn’t interesting. Who wants an overdrive with motors that are just as comfortable at 6000 as at 2000 rpm?

Leaves 2nd gear as a big question mark to me. Is this gear possible with only the electro motors? When clutch C4 is released and C2 not yet engaged, the two motors are pretty independent and must firstly bring clutch C2 in position. The axles must be brought in synch before this clutch can be closed. As long as clutch C4 is engaged, the motors can –accoording to me- in no way sync those two axles. So at a certain point when shifting from 1 to 2, C4 and C2 are booth released. 

The big question is: Is this theoretical possible with the two motors only. Without any force in whatever direction, or even without friction on the input axle. Is that pure mechanical spoken possible? I have no idea. Anyone understands this kind of gearing?

If that is answered, the question remains if the control-unit can or will power this without an ICE.

And if that’s answered, how the hell must this beast be wired?


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## Bowser330 (Jun 15, 2008)

Awesome data Jan... I can tell you are quite intrigued about the possibilities of these motors, as am I . I wonder how AMP is doing it? I wonder if they are using oem controls or aftermarket(tritium)


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## Jan (Oct 5, 2009)

Bowser330 said:


> Awesome data Jan... I can tell you are quite intrigued about the possibilities of these motors, as am I . I wonder how AMP is doing it? I wonder if they are using oem controls or aftermarket(tritium)


Hi Browser, What's AMP?


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## Jan (Oct 5, 2009)

Jan said:


> Hi Browser, What's AMP?


Found it: http://www.ampelectricvehicles.com

It looks like they use two of the planetary gears to reduce the motor RPM's. And call it a bit missleading direct drive. And they say the other thing that's unique is their software. Maybe they reprogram the standard power unit.

I'm pretty sure the transmission can work in manual mode completely electric. The question is if the power unit will support this. But if it's reprogrammable I think I can make it do that. Programming is my profession. Not this kind of hardware, but I think I can learn it quick.

If I can get a complete working transmission with power unit, transfer case, and all the wiring to the battery pack, the pedals and a can bus connector, I'll buy it.


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## Inkidu (May 7, 2010)

These Remy motors seem to me a perfect match for a powerglide for these reasons.

1) The powerglide seems ideal for an EV

http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showthread.php/powerglide-secrets-evers-should-know-22045.html

Especially like the fact that there is a round bolt pattern end to trans and a round SAE motor bolt pattern.

2) The trans/motor seems to be a doable project.(roller bearing trans with a electric motor would be silky smooth)

http://www.poormansev.com/id29.html

3) Possible nice upgrade paths.

When making the adapter predrill for a HVH250 and a HVH 410

Start with the high flow HVH250, with 600 volt capabilities, and match

with a tritium (which is only capable of little over 300 volts)

Eventually upgrade to a higher volt inverter, when the cost is more reasonable. (thereby unleashing more power with the benefit of more efficiency)

And then eventually upgrade to the HVH410. (The trans can take high power and high RPM's) 

Let's face it most of us want the best things so the need to be realistic with the fact of what some of these things cost make the upgrade path desirable. 

Added benefit you get to still tinker with your project without starting from scratch.

There might be some serious things wrong with my ideas I am only a newbie 
thinking aloud.

Thanks for any help.


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## efan (Aug 27, 2009)

I asked electro-vehicles.eu whether the Mes Dea controllers would work with electric motors that are not Mes Dea, and they are saying that by tuning the software it should work..tho they cant guarantee


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## Jan (Oct 5, 2009)

They won't ship the transmission abroad. So, the quest continues.


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## Jan (Oct 5, 2009)

Yet, another picture.

It will be hard to find that transmission in Europe. Only one model drives around here: the BMW X6 ActiveHybrid. Even the Merc is only for sale in the USA. So, I have to drive a X6 as soon I see one of the road not to hard against a tree.


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## efan (Aug 27, 2009)

Jan said:


> http://www.xbimmers.com/goodiesforyou/x/e71/activehybrid/P90050108_highRes.jpg
> 
> It will be hard to find that transmission in Europe.


when they start showing up on ebay someone will probably agree to ship it to Europe...or have someone you trust in the US buy it and then ship it to you


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## Jan (Oct 5, 2009)

efan said:


> when they start showing up on ebay someone will probably agree to ship it to Europe...or have someone you trust in the US buy it and then ship it to you


I only know Bush and Obama. I'll call Obama.

This particular transmission deal has another important issue:

I need the transmission with all the wiring and what it's attached to. Including the controler (PIM), the pedals and the shifter or whatever. Probably with CAN, but still I need the stuff that transmits the codes to capture them. Otherwise I've no clue how it must be wired. 

And this particular one is already out of the car he said.


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## efan (Aug 27, 2009)

I just saw two Zap Worldcar profiles on evalbum.com...the owners had to replace the original inverters and they both used MES DEA Tim-400...they say that the inverter is very programmable and learns how to control different motors...so i guess these remy motors can be used with MES DEA inverter, but they have to be taken out of the transmission...

you can see what the Zap owners say about the inverters here
http://www.evalbum.com/cntrl/MSDA


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## Bowser330 (Jun 15, 2008)

efan said:


> I just saw two Zap Worldcar profiles on evalbum.com...the owners had to replace the original inverters and they both used MES DEA Tim-400...they say that the inverter is very programmable and learns how to control different motors...so i guess these remy motors can be used with MES DEA inverter, but they have to be taken out of the transmission...
> 
> you can see what the Zap owners say about the inverters here
> http://www.evalbum.com/cntrl/MSDA


These Remy motors have a rating of 
320V - 650V (with cooling)
and 200A - 300A (300 continuous with cooling)

The MES-DEA TIM-600 Inverter
400V max
350A output peak
225A input peak (if only 225A goes in max then if 350 is out, its not using max voltage of 400V, peak is 100kw, so that would translate to 286V, 286V*350A = *100kw peak)*
*Cost = $5,605 USD*

The Tritium WaveSculptor
450V max
368A Max (full DC Bus max @ max speed(V) = *165kw peak)*
*Cost = $6000AUD ($5,451 USD)*


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## efan (Aug 27, 2009)

I am new to the ev world...and your power calculations might be correct, but the pricing I think is off. The mes dea + the motor comes around 5500..but in the case of the _Tritium alone would cost that + with it you add more batteries...thats just my opinion_


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## Bowser330 (Jun 15, 2008)

efan said:


> I am new to the ev world...and your power calculations might be correct, but the pricing I think is off. The mes dea + the motor comes around 5500..but in the case of the _Tritium alone would cost that + with it you add more batteries...thats just my opinion_


Please post the link to where I can buy the Tim-600 inverter and motor for $5500USD

See my link below that shows the inverter costs $5200USD for TIM400 & $5600USD for TIM600 without Motor.

http://www.metricmind.com/prices.htm


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## efan (Aug 27, 2009)

Bowser330 said:


> Please post the link to where I can buy the Tim-600 inverter


http://www.electro-vehicles.eu/shop/details.asp?prodid=MES04&cat=0&path=49,63

I am sure there will be some additional costs for importing it...but it should be significantly less than $5500.


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## Powered By DC (Jan 3, 2009)

DP and RMS have been working with Remy and are developing a motor and controller solution that should be available late this year. 

Here is are a couple pics of the motor ( you can also see the controller in the first pic. It is the same RMS controller I am currently offering just tuned for the Remy motor)


















They are testing it and fine tuning it in this car.








When it is available I plan to offer it for sale . I was told it may be available by October.

Best Regards

Dave Kois
Current EV Tech, LLC
http://www.currentevtech.com
253-988-5020
Skype dkoisii


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## umurali2000 (May 3, 2010)

Thanks for the link....


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## Inkidu (May 7, 2010)

When reading over the specs for the Remy motor, I noticed something called Base Speed (rpm)

http://www.remyinc.com/docs/HVH250R4.pdf

How/why/when is this # important?

Thanks for any help.


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

Inkidu said:


> When reading over the specs for the Remy motor, I noticed something called Base Speed (rpm)
> 
> http://www.remyinc.com/docs/HVH250R4.pdf
> 
> How/why/when is this # important?


Hi Inki,

Take the HVH250 example. Base Speed is listed as 2500 RPM. Now look at the plot for it. The torque starts to fall off right at 2500 RPM, right? Bingo  These AC motors can produce maximum torque up to base frequency (speed). Above that, the maximum torque is reduced. So peak power is at base speed.

The base frequency (speed) is dependent on voltage. In this case 320 VDC on the inverter bus.

major


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## Inkidu (May 7, 2010)

major said:


> Hi Inki,
> 
> Take the HVH250 example. Base Speed is listed as 2500 RPM. Now look at the plot for it. The torque starts to fall off right at 2500 RPM, right? Bingo  These AC motors can produce maximum torque up to base frequency (speed). Above that, the maximum torque is reduced. So peak power is at base speed.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the reply. 

That makes sense. The HVH250 reaches peak power at 2500 rpm and the high flow version has the capability, because of the higher voltage, to reach its peak power at the higher Base Speed of 4000 rpm.


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## Bowser330 (Jun 15, 2008)

http://currentevtech.com/Drive-Systems/BLDC-Motors-and-Controllers-c67/

Dave you've been holding out on us! BLDC motor+inverter combos (pssst regen)

I am a little confused though, please help...
http://currentevtech.com/Drive-Syst...lers/80KW-BLDC-Motor-and-Controller-p167.html

400V max system voltage, nominal is 288V
inverter output max is 330A, motor Amp Max is 250A
How do we get to 80kw with these numbers?

im assuming you program the inverter to limit max Amp output to 250A, and then run a system voltage of 320V, 320*250=80kw?? no?


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## Powered By DC (Jan 3, 2009)

I havent been holding out  I did post here somewhere that I recently added them to my website. I will be adding several more BLDC and AC motors and controller/inverters to my website over the next few weeks.

As for the peak power on the BLDC's that I currently have listed the manufacturer has preset the peak power in the controller, so regardless of what voltage you are running the current will be limited to keep it within the max settings. I have been told you can actually hit the peak current for a few seconds before it will start cutting you back so I guess the peak power is higher than listed but only for a few seconds

Dave Kois
Current EV Tech, LLC
http://www.currentevtech.com
253-988-5020
Skype dkoisii


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## RoughRider (Aug 14, 2008)

@Dave

can you say something about the price for the REMY and the RMS controller?


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## Powered By DC (Jan 3, 2009)

Rough Rider

I am not sure what the pricing will be just yet. When I know more I will post about it.

Best Regards

Dave Kois
Current EV Tech, LLC
http://www.currentevtech.com
253-988-5020
Skype dkoisii


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## Coulomb (Apr 22, 2009)

Bowser330 said:


> 400V max system voltage, nominal is 288V
> inverter output max is 330A, motor Amp Max is 250A
> How do we get to 80kw with these numbers?


I believe it develops around 80 kW with 288 VDC input and 250 A RMS per phase to the motor.

With 288 VDC input, let's say we lose 12 V of that at the output (losing some 6V per IGBT including cable losses etc). I'm also assuming that these motors run (at least approximately) sine waves, so the 288 - 12 V peak is reduced by a factor of 1.414 with neutral wobble when translated to RMS AC, so that's (288 -12) /1.414 = 195 VRMS from the controller.

The motor current limit is 250 A, but there are three phases, and as with any three phase system, you split either the voltage (wye) or current (delta) by the square root of three; either way you end up with power equals line voltage times line current times the square root of 3 electrical power into the motor:

195 * 250 * 1.732 = 84.4 kW electrical.

The motor claims a handy efficiency of 95%, so that's 84.4 * 0.95 = 80.2 kW mechanical.

If as Dave says there is a current limit of 330 A for a second or two, that would translate to 330/250 * 80 = 106 kW briefly. Nice! 

With higher input voltage, say 350 VDC to stay under the 400 VDC maximum and using a lithium pack (so peak to nominal is 3.6:3.2 instead of lead's 15:12) that very brief peak would presumably go to over 120 kW.

Also, power dissipated in the motor is perhaps a third of a similar power brushed DC system (assuming a brushed DC efficiency of 85%). And of course regen, contactorless electrical reversing, and so on.


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## Coulomb (Apr 22, 2009)

However, the continuous motor current at 76 A seems to be a typo. It's the same as the continuous current for the 40 kW motor, so perhaps someone along the chain did a copy and paste and forgot to update that number. The peak current for the 40 kW motor (also the same as the 80 kW motor) is possibly also a typo.

Can you clarify please, Dave?


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## Powered By DC (Jan 3, 2009)

Coulomb said:


> However, the continuous motor current at 76 A seems to be a typo. It's the same as the continuous current for the 40 kW motor, so perhaps someone along the chain did a copy and paste and forgot to update that number. The peak current for the 40 kW motor (also the same as the 80 kW motor) is possibly also a typo.
> 
> Can you clarify please, Dave?


Yeah, it was a typo. The continuous motor current is 105 A

I have corrected it now thanks for pointing that out

Dave Kois
Current EV Tech, LLC
http://www.currentevtech.com
253-988-5020
Skype dkoisii


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## Bowser330 (Jun 15, 2008)

Coulomb said:


> I believe it develops around 80 kW with 288 VDC input and 250 A RMS per phase to the motor.
> 
> With 288 VDC input, let's say we lose 12 V of that at the output (losing some 6V per IGBT including cable losses etc). I'm also assuming that these motors run (at least approximately) sine waves, so the 288 - 12 V peak is reduced by a factor of 1.414 with neutral wobble when translated to RMS AC, so that's (288 -12) /1.414 = 195 VRMS from the controller.
> 
> ...


Exactly what I wanted to know and hear, thank you kindly.


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## Jan (Oct 5, 2009)

Powered By DC said:


> Yeah, it was a typo. The continuous motor current is 105 A
> 
> I have corrected it now thanks for pointing that out
> 
> ...


Dave, do you have more info of the inverter?


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## CroDriver (Jan 8, 2009)

Has anyone tried to contact Remy? Do they sell smaller quantities? (say 10 motors)

Price?


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

I don't know but I bet they would. They are willing to deal with a small volume bike build:
http://www.evworld.com/news.cfm?newsid=23863
and small volume conversions:
http://www.evworld.com/news.cfm?newsid=23809


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## umurali2000 (May 3, 2010)

Very useful discussion.... thanks for the comments


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## efan (Aug 27, 2009)

did you guys see this thread
http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showthread.php?t=50583
one lucky member picked up what seems to be a remy motor


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## Automcdonough (Sep 1, 2010)

Yeah, it's looking more and more like this is the motor I found. It ain't exactly plug-n-play though.



Powered By DC said:


> DP and RMS have been working with Remy and are developing a motor and controller solution that should be available late this year.
> 
> Here is are a couple pics of the motor ( you can also see the controller in the first pic. It is the same RMS controller I am currently offering just tuned for the Remy motor)
> 
> ...


I could problably really use that CASE. 
Well if you are familiar with that other thread then you know I will be modifying a powerglide to deal with this motor. Well that is the current plan.. It should be here by friday.. I'll be sure to update you guys on if anything happens to fit together or not.


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## Mesuge (Mar 6, 2008)

This GM-Daimler-BMW hybrid is basically a rehash of Toyota's HSD drivetrain to avoid licensing fees as much as possible, also aiming for their specific "heavier" fleets etc. As mentioned before, both emotors have different windings, each emotor is being controlled from a separate inverter, there are esentially two units inside one box (hybrid powercontrol box), again similar to Toyota's approach. In terms of theoretically reusing this package for EV conversion, this is a nightmare in manhours for a single individual speaking about achieving the full potential (~160kW), years.. I'd guess that AMP placed large order so the necessary engineering for reusing some of these OEM parts for BEV application could happen, most likely in different package in terms of housing, differential and (twin-)inverter box. It's probably better to go (wait) with "matched package" from Remy, Tritium, Dave, .. , Curtis or similar P&S on the lower power end (mosfet based)..

Speaking about inverters only, Etischer's clever approach separately boosting up IGBT power of small-affordable industrial vfd looked promising and seems to work fine, but if I'm not mistaken he abandoned the innitial plan to commercialize it, and it has not been fully diy documented for others either, if you brake down the cost/+diy-time, it's not that much cheaper than (soon) available solutions. The problem is that because of the ~same powermodules there is prolly no significant price difference between say ~65-150kW inverters, they end up around $6k at the minimum anyway. The only answer apart from few opensource projects underway (expensive hw still) is massproduction in at least 100k unit series and that's still years away for the diy segment, catch 22, but slowly getting there..

If budget is the primary boundary (and still HV AC maniacal), you ought to downsize in power and donor size/weight, upto say 45kW (peak) industrial VFD conversion (unmodded) is inexpensive, but you will likely sacrifice even not so desirable econobox donor into 2seater, therefore producing not that much appealing citycar conversion in the end - in comparison to low voltage DC based projects, usually ready for highway trip segments.


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## OSU_EcoCAR (Mar 24, 2011)

I think I can shed a significant amount of light on the GM Tahoe electric motor and inverter. I have worked for GM as well as used this in a development vehicle. So here is the explanation...

Yes the Remy HVH250 is rated for 60 kW continuous (at 320V DC into the inverter) and yes the Remy HVH250 is rated for 150 kW roughly (at 650V DC into the inverter). So GM's inverter is not a significant bottleneck (it might be a small amount), but rather the battery voltage of the system. Using the HVH250 on a 650V battery would get much higher continuous output from the system, but then the inverter would require components and space in a much larger package to use high voltage capacitors, IGBTs, and more room between the busbars to prevent arcing.

Good Luck with any attempts to use this motor. It is an excellent motor, but tricky to cool and lubricate. Hope this allows some wisdom into the conversation rather than picking on an OEM that actually released a product of considerable complexity and very good results.


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## efan (Aug 27, 2009)

hey guys,
I taught some of you might find this interesting:
http://www.freeair.cz/freeairen/ind...ategory_id=49&option=com_virtuemart&Itemid=53

and a video of it in a small car:
http://www.youtube.com/user/freeaircz#p/u/0/jEEtCykXlsI


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## Automcdonough (Sep 1, 2010)

that does seem interesting. Can anyone translate it?


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## Coulomb (Apr 22, 2009)

Automcdonough said:


> Can anyone translate it?


The graph is already half in English. It's hard to read, and they use some strange words (like Moment for Torque, I figured that one out from the SI units). Example in the top right corner: "Vykon (W) Power output (W)".

Edit: so power is the straight purple line, RPM is the light blue line, and current is the dark blue line near the bottom of the graph. Efficiency is the red line approaching 90%, and the other line is temperature. This is all with a 50 V supply.

Edit2: I see that they are only loading it to half of its capacity, so this is the "no cooling" graph. I think that they should have cooled it and shaded half the graph, noting that you can't go into the shaded region without cooling. But then the temperature graph would be different I suppose.

The 40 kW rating looks like it might be electrical, not mechanical. This graph seems to be for 40 kW/2 = 20 kW (the specified power without cooling); the output power goes to 19 kW while the current goes to 400 A. 400 A x 50 V = 20 000 W electrical; 20 kW x ~ 90% efficiency = 19 kW mechanical.


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## efan (Aug 27, 2009)

Hey guys,
does anyone know whether a controller such as this one can be used in an EV? 
http://www.magnetekmining.com/pdfs/M_FORCESD500_7_6_FINAL.pdf


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## few2many (Jun 23, 2009)

Ya gota love that there "explosion-proof display"? Anyone else have that on their controller?
Wow, that actually looks pretty good. Any pricing?


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

efan said:


> Hey guys,
> does anyone know whether a controller such as this one can be used in an EV?
> http://www.magnetekmining.com/pdfs/M_FORCESD500_7_6_FINAL.pdf


Sure, if you can afford one


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## efan (Aug 27, 2009)

few2many said:


> Any pricing?


No, I just assumed that the price will be something reasonable, but based on Majors words...I guess I was probably wrong.


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## few2many (Jun 23, 2009)

Well, Heres the response from a sales rep.
"We sell our drives into the underground mining industry, hence the explosion proof display. Our drive most likely could be used on an electric on road vehicle but we do not offer them for such applications.

Thank you for your interest"


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## Coulomb (Apr 22, 2009)

Sorry for the very late post.



Bowser330 said:


> ...and the Tritium Wavesculptor may fit the bill...
> http://www.tritium.com.au/products/TRI74/index.html (5000$ USD)


I'd point out that the price is actually AU$6000, which was a little over $5000 in mid to late 2010, but has since risen to a peak of about US$6600. With the most recent global jitters, it's now under US$6000 (excluding freight, which should be modest for an 8.5 kg controller, and GST, not payable outside Australia).

So with the core charge about doubling the motor cost, and a little more on the controller, it's still pretty good value, if it can be gotten and is what we think it says on the can.


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## steven4601 (Nov 11, 2010)

All I can comment on the Wavesculptor 200 is that it's build quality is pretty impressive compared to other commercially available ev inverters. Technical feedback on questions is quick and detailed.

The only requirement is that you're mildly familiar with programming in C for microcontroller to use their ev-driver controls. (Needed for integration into the vehicle). Their base firmware allow customisation through firmware updates, future firmware should be configurable through a gui/tool.


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## Salty9 (Jul 13, 2009)

Using an outrunner on a vehicle would be interesting.

Edit: On further thinking it might not be all bad. You could solve cooling problems by putting turbine blades on the outer casing and putting ductwork around it. If you could spin it fast enough and use it like a jet you could eliminate mechanical connections to the wheels


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## Genius Pooh (Dec 23, 2011)

Any one know remy motor's price??

HVH250 and HV410 is awesome.

I wanna know both motor's price


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## Coulomb (Apr 22, 2009)

Genius Pooh said:


> Any one know Remy motor's price?


One clue for the HVH250 here: Remy Electric Motors


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## steven4601 (Nov 11, 2010)

Before I get pm's. That is what Remy told me.

HVH250 is great yes but I could not wait till the end of this year for the motor to come out. 
Even though I already have a motor, hopefully Remy will be doing what they said they would be doing.


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