# 100 mile range lead slead?



## DIYguy (Sep 18, 2008)

Personally, I wouldn't waste my time. It will be a lead behemoth....if you could ever carry all that weight, and have the space. . and you won't get 100 miles. I would say 67 miles on a good day...and it will go down. It will likely exceed the vehicles GVW rating also.

Say u get 60% of the 360 Ah. That's 216. With 156 volts nominal that's 33.7kwh. At 500 wh/mile (which you likely won't get without some aero mods and LRR tires etc).... that's about 67 miles.

Save ur money, buy lithium.


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## Qer (May 7, 2008)

Not gonna claim that I know enough to say that your numbers work or not. 100 miles is quite something to achieve with lead acid. To me it sounds a bit optimistic to put it nicely. 

However, I would rather put 40 batteries in two strings (240 Volt) and let the controller limit max motor voltage to something safe instead. Lead acid will sag a lot when you start to pull current from them so those 156 Volts will probably drop at least to 130 Volt when you start to accelerate, probably more. With a pack voltage of 240 Volt your pack can sag a lot without limiting your top RPM and a modern controller can easily guarantee that your motor voltage never goes above, say, 170 Volt.

Another thing to keep in mind is that lead acid drops in capacity rather drastically as soon as temperature starts to drop, so if you live where you for example occasionally see snow you definitely need a way to control battery temperature. I've also heard several people claiming that 8 Volt or 6 Volt lead acid packs works better in EVs than 12 Volt packs, that is if you're still consider lead-acid in the end. 

Oh, and a single motor will probably not survive 1kA, especially not while hauling around all that lead. You probably need two motors in parallel (to keep the current <=500 Amps per motor), possibly even a blower to ensure they don't overheat...


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## Guest (Aug 27, 2011)

It's gonna be heavy and more like a usable 18kw rather than 56kw. So your distance will not be 100 miles. I am assuming you need those 100 miles at freeway speeds too. Is it a total of 100 miles, 50 miles each way or 100 miles each way for a total of 200 miles. If you only need 50 miles each way then you might get away with a heavy lead sled but by the time you got to your destination the power would be minimal and the vehicle sluggish if not downright crawling. In the winter you will have even more troubles. 

In the end it is cheaper to use Lithium and you can get a nice little car to go 120 miles at freeway speeds if you have a large enough pack. A good 200 AH 156 volt pack should do in a nice little Speedster. No creature comforts but hey you get your distance and have fun as well. Not too fun in the winter or on wet winter days.


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## OMT (May 10, 2010)

my numbers are completely based on the red beastie, and this conversion:
http://evalbum.com/037
http://www.evalbum.com/1430

not sure if their claims are true but they both use around 40 batteries i beleive and small light pickup with a stiffened rear suspention.

the batteries available to my dad are 55lbs each so this pack would way..............2100lbs :S the thing is my dad doesnt care about the weight or aceleration ( should'nt be tooo too bad at 156v 1000a?( blower cooled 11.5" )

maybe if i explin to him the cycle life of the thudersky-type cells, because if he buys 8K worth of lithium in a small car, could he expect the pack to last upwards of 8yrs if treated nicely? because i could explain to him that if the pickup worked he has 2500$ of battery to replace every lets say two years so in eight years he would have spent 10K on the endless abyss of lead. do these numbers make some sense?
i think the only issue with explaining this to him is that he will expect much greater technology to come in eight years, leaving his once 8 thousand dollar pack as old technology.


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## Qer (May 7, 2008)

I must say that with 100 miles travel distance and the budget a small diesel powered car or a hybrid sounds like a more reasonable choice. Perhaps a plug-in hybrid...


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## Guest (Aug 27, 2011)

VW Turbo Diesel would do just fine. My 01 Beetle TDI with performance chip and larger injectors still gets a good 44 to 48 mpg. Instead of 90 hp we are looking around 125 to the ground. I can drive it easy or hard and still get good mileage. Drinks 100% Bio just fine. 

Most of the mileage claims are just total bogus when it comes to lead acid. Real world vs calculated just don't even come close. With lithium its better. A tiny light weight 34kw pack of lithiums can push a speedster replica pretty well. Even my Leaf with a 24kw pack does exceptional considering the size of the pack. No way will you ever do that with lead. I also guarantee he will be concerned with acceleration and speed and distance. He says no now but when he actually gets to drive a REAL electric car he will care about that. Hands down. 

No one wants a huge clunky golf cart that does fine around town for short distances. 50 miles or less and that is combined city/hwy. 

The claims of the ones you posted are more like calculated rather than real. I fell into that distance trap myself thinking I would build an electric VW Ghia and get 40 plus miles with 96 volts and lead acid batteries. The car did fine in the performance arena but was a meager 20 miles at freeway speeds and that was taking the car to near 100% DOD. By the time I got done with my run the performance was just crap. With lithium the performance is there till the end and the pack was much smaller and way better performance and distance. 35 miles at freeway speeds and only 100AH pack. That was in my MG. Lead is dead. You can if you want but don't expect long distances. It should perform fairly with lead acid. You will like it but the freeway distances may suffer. Around town you may squeeze 100 miles. Remember to calculate only about half of your AH's usable. In cold weather you can cut that again by a bit. Cold hits lead hard. 

Pete


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## spdas (Nov 28, 2009)

Sorry, but 100 miles with lead just ain't gonna happen. And making a DIY EV with the reason that it will save you $ on $4.00/gal gas really is not a real sound argument in the long run. (rather not a worthwhile argument). You need more dedication reasons than that to do a conversion. ie pride, achievement, green, carbon footprint, impress neighbors, save gas, etc. Better to save up for a Leaf as they are dirt cheap while the rebates last. 

Francis


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## rochesterricer (Jan 5, 2011)

Isn't Red Beastie the one John Wayland claimed to have personally seen 100 miles out of? Wait, I found the quote:

"the only other EV I’ve had that gave this type of range was Red Beastie – Dick Finley’s Toyota truck stuffed to the gills with just shy of 2500 lbs. of lead acid batteries. Though I ran that truck 120 miles on one charge, it was a 100% discharge that left the 6V batteries with their tongues hanging out and ‘not happy’ about it. Staying within the reasonable 80% DOD for lead acid, the 5300 lb. truck could do about 95 miles per charge. "

From here: http://www.plasmaboyracing.com/blog/?p=441

Still, I wouldn't expect that kind of range for very long. You might end up stressing the batteries so much that you would need to replace the pack every year.


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## Guest (Aug 27, 2011)

Guaranteed not at freeway speeds. If your going butt slow then yes. Really, normal around the town driving with few stops might just yield 100 plus miles but not at freeway speeds. Most here in our neck of the woods have no choice but to get on some sort of hwy or freeway daily. I commute 44 total miles on the hwy and drive at 55 to 65 mph. Even my Leaf can't get 100 real world miles at those speeds and it is lithium powered too. So never mind the claims. Those are at golf cart speeds. I learned the truth the hard way. Don't fall for the trap of what you see. And those that say they get 100 plus miles never say what the speeds were either. Now when you get into lithium you can claim freeway speeds and have pretty good claims. Now your talking my language. 

Pete


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## Qer (May 7, 2008)

rochesterricer said:


> Still, I wouldn't expect that kind of range for very long. You might end up stressing the batteries so much that you would need to replace the pack every year.


Lead acid seems to be defined to survive a little more than 600 cycles if you run them down to 80% DoD every time, but the caveat here is that DoD is defined as when the capacity has dropped to 80%! This means that when you're at the 600:th cycle (give or take) 80% DoD is the same capacity as 64% when the pack is fresh.

So specifying the pack to handle the range with 80% DoD when they're brand new will mean that the older the pack gets the deeper it'll be run down until the day the car will barely make it even at 100% DoD. I'd say it's definitely too close for comfort and that relying on repeatedly deplete the pack to the brink of exhaustion will only result in a very unhappy dad and a failed conversion.

Sorry to rain on the parade, but I'd definitely recommend that diesel or hybrid instead. No matter how much I love the idea of more electrical vehicles on the road, a failed conversion is nothing but bad PR for the alternatives to fossil fuel...


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## dtbaker (Jan 5, 2008)

spdas said:


> Sorry, but 100 miles with lead just ain't gonna happen.



I'd have to agree with all these guys on this statement. You asked, and have gotten responses from some experienced builders so far. All agree 100 miles on lead is not likely, and you'd be better off with lithium or a bio-diesel.


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## ken will (Dec 19, 2009)

If you only need to go 100 miles occasionally, you could put this in a trailer as a mileage extender. ( it runs on propane Not Gas!)


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## m38mike (Dec 27, 2008)

I've got a FLA pack of 18 - 8v deep cycle batteries, with a designed voltage of 144vdc. I drive about 20 miles one way to work each morning. Fortunately there isn't much traffic at 7 am so I get to experiment with my speed to see how much power I use at different speeds. If I go to work at 30 mph, then I arrive with only about 30% dod. If I do 40 mph then I'm seeing about 40-45% dod. At 50 mph I'm seeing about 65-70% dod. I haven't tried 60 mph because I want to avoid going below 70% dod so maybe my batteries will last a little bit longer. 

Bottom line here is that at 30 mph I think I could possibly go almost twice as far as I could at 50 mph, just based on the depth of discharge at those speeds. But I only drive about 20 miles. And my pack weighs over 1200 lbs. I really don't think you'll get 100 miles out of lead acid batt's unless you're driving 20 mph on flat ground. They just don't have the storage capacity. Or you'll be hauling way too much lead. 

For what it's worth.

PS. I can't wait to get rid of the lead and get lithium!!


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## kc7ekk (Oct 17, 2008)

Given my success with such a modest lead acid battery pack, I don't see getting 100 miles/charge on lead acid as un-realistic. Remove the friction and you have solved the problem. 

In my Toyota EV, (20- six volt Costco batteries) I am getting 50+ mile range at freeway speeds and 64+ mile range with a 70/30 freeway/city mix. I have found I can drive further when I drive 20 miles, let the pack rest and drive another 10-20 miles at a time. My best trip where I drove over 64 miles involved running several errands with lots of stops along the way. 
My pickup didn't used to get this kind of range. It was only after addressing friction in the wheel bearings and air drag that my range started climbing. 
It's still a work in progress. I am now shooting for 80 miles/charge. That would allow me to drive back and forth to work 2 days in a row before having to re-charge again.


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## rochesterricer (Jan 5, 2011)

Are those 100% DOD numbers?


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## Guest (Nov 12, 2011)

kc7ekk said:


> Given my success with such a modest lead acid battery pack, I don't see getting 100 miles/charge on lead acid as un-realistic. Remove the friction and you have solved the problem.
> 
> In my Toyota EV, (20- six volt Costco batteries) I am getting 50+ mile range at freeway speeds and 64+ mile range with a 70/30 freeway/city mix. I have found I can drive further when I drive 20 miles, let the pack rest and drive another 10-20 miles at a time. My best trip where I drove over 64 miles involved running several errands with lots of stops along the way.
> My pickup didn't used to get this kind of range. It was only after addressing friction in the wheel bearings and air drag that my range started climbing.
> It's still a work in progress. I am now shooting for 80 miles/charge. That would allow me to drive back and forth to work 2 days in a row before having to re-charge again.


With my aerodynamic Nissan Leaf and a small 24 KWH Lithium pack I am hard pressed at 55 to attain 80 miles so your claim of 50 miles at 50+ with a tiny lead pack is total BS. I built a vehicle with 16 6 volt Sams club batteries and it was small and way more aerodynamic than a truck and the best I ever got was 30 miles and it was crawling at that point. Maybe 20 miles at 55 mph buy more like 45 mph then the rest was just crawling until I arrived home. It rolled well and was easy to drive. It was considered a well built electric and did well with lead acid. Even had it to 85 mph a couple times. Sucked amps fast doing that. 

Good luck.

Lead is dead for a practical viable electric car.


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## Ziggythewiz (May 16, 2010)

kc7ekk said:


> That would allow me to drive back and forth to work 2 days in a row before having to re-charge again.


1st, why would you want to? Just charge it daily. 2nd, lead shouldn't sit overnight at less than 80%. If you use it, fill it back up.


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## Guest (Nov 12, 2011)

Fender Skirts may help some. Smooth hubs a bit more, and good bearings on the wheels maybe a bit more but to claim 50+ range with only 20 6 volt batteries is hard to swallow. 35 maybe 40 at best but that would be to a crawl so it really is not 50+ at freeway speeds. Maybe 35 then it slows quickly after that. I am no stranger to lead and no stranger to claims of high mileage. Many get very very disappointed when their lead sled does not get those claimed 50+ miles when they read about it all the time. Now if you put in 40 of those puppies then I could believe 50+ miles but not much more as you add the weight factor as well and the acceleration is even worse to pull a ton of lead along at freeway speeds. 

I like that you are using a Kostov. How do you like that motor? I have two and one is going in my VW Bus. Why did you weld the case? Why not a use a motor clamp ring? Welding the case looks sloppy and will be ripe for breaking that weld. Be careful. It may last awhile but may crack before you notice. It's just an observation. Nice battery box. Are your other batteries in an insulated box too? Cold weather really hits lead hard so be ready for that. Insulating is not always enough in cold weather. Do you have a heater?


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## dtbaker (Jan 5, 2008)

kc7ekk said:


> Given my success with such a modest lead acid battery pack, I don't see getting 100 miles/charge on lead acid as un-realistic. Remove the friction and you have solved the problem.


...exactly how did you reduce friction? I would guess the rolling resistance to be far less of a factor that aero at speeds over 35.






kc7ekk said:


> In my Toyota EV, (20- six volt Costco batteries) I am getting 50+ mile range at freeway speeds and 64+ mile range with a 70/30 freeway/city mix.


I find this hard to believe.
Even if you DID get this kind of milage, the cost/mile over 10 years of use will still be much higher w/ lead after you go thru 4 or 5 sets of batteries.


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## tomofreno (Mar 3, 2009)

> I am getting 50+ mile range at freeway speeds


 What Ah capacity are the batteries, and is your speed? If I assume a best case of something like 240 Ah T-145's and 150A discharge current at 60 mph reducing that to about 175Ah due to Peukert Effect, that would be about 21kWh, 16.8kWh at 80% DoD, so about 336 Wh/mile at 50 miles. Exceptional energy/mile for a pickup at 60 mph.


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## kc7ekk (Oct 17, 2008)

There are those that say that can do it and there are those who did to it. 
I am telling you that I am doing 40-50 freeway miles on a single charge regularly, consistently and reliably. 
You are more than welcome to take a ride with me some time. I'm telling you, for the past 1 ½ months 
I have been commuting on a single charge to work and back from Kaysville to SLC daily. It's 20 miles each way and is mostly flat (less the overpasses and what not). 
If I keep it at 50-55mph, I can go 50 miles with 80% DOD. My average current draw is about 100Amps at 120 Volts. 
If I keep it at 60mph, I can travel the whole 40 mile distance and arrive home at 80% DOD. My average current draw is 120 Amps at 120 volts
If I keep it at 55mph, I can travel the whole 40 mile distance and arrive home at 50% DOD. 
It's amazing to me the additional load that air speed adds. 


My Costco batteries are 220Amp hour 6 volt batteries. Doing the math, for 20 of these batteries making up a 120Volt battery pack, that's 26.4KWh. 
After driving 40 miles at 50-55mph, I am only at about 50% DOD when I charge it back up. After the batteries are full, the Kill-A-Watt meter reads ~13KWh of energy used to charge the pack. That works out to an energy usage of 325 watt-hours/mile. 
Given this figure, my theoretical max range would be 81 miles assuming no Perkert effect. My actual max range is just over 64 miles


I used to only get 28 miles to a charge. Then I replaced the wheel bearings and got low rolling resistant tires that are also slightly thinner and a little shorter. This throws off my speedometer by 2mph. Using a GPS and google maps, I can confirm my actual speed and total distance traveled. 


I have made a lot of improvements but I know I can still do better. My Engineering background and OCD are very beneficial to this effort. I have also gleaned a lot of tips from the good folks at www.ecomodder.com. In fact, before I finished my electric truck, I was getting over 50mpg in my 1992 Honda accord that the EPA states only gets 24mpg. Every car can be improved, even electric ones. 


I'm telling you guys, reduce the friction and you extend your range considerably. This is the same reason that space crafts can travel millions of miles with very little energy exerted. No friction. 


Reduce your Cd coefficients and a whole world of extended range opens up. 


If you want more information on how I do this, check out my blog. I go into detail with my successes and failures. 
www.kc7ekk-solar.blogspot.com


Don't just discount me and say that it's all Bull. Try out the grill block, air dam, wheel skirts and other things! I promise you, you will be amazed at how many amps you will shave from your electric vehicle while cruising down the freeway. 
It's a double win because every amp reduced is actually ~1.3 amps gained now that Mr. Perkert is on your side. It's like getting energy for free


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## dtbaker (Jan 5, 2008)

not saying its 'bull', just a little skeptical. 

exactly what wheel bearings did you replace with? and what tires? I'm certainly willing to try.....


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## kc7ekk (Oct 17, 2008)

gottdi said:


> Fender Skirts may help some. Smooth hubs a bit more, and good bearings on the wheels maybe a bit more but to claim 50+ range with only 20 6 volt batteries is hard to swallow. 35 maybe 40 at best but that would be to a crawl so it really is not 50+ at freeway speeds. Maybe 35 then it slows quickly after that. I am no stranger to lead and no stranger to claims of high mileage. Many get very very disappointed when their lead sled does not get those claimed 50+ miles when they read about it all the time. Now if you put in 40 of those puppies then I could believe 50+ miles but not much more as you add the weight factor as well and the acceleration is even worse to pull a ton of lead along at freeway speeds.
> 
> I like that you are using a Kostov. How do you like that motor? I have two and one is going in my VW Bus. Why did you weld the case? Why not a use a motor clamp ring? Welding the case looks sloppy and will be ripe for breaking that weld. Be careful. It may last awhile but may crack before you notice. It's just an observation. Nice battery box. Are your other batteries in an insulated box too? Cold weather really hits lead hard so be ready for that. Insulating is not always enough in cold weather. Do you have a heater?


I like the Kostov motor. I found a killer deal where thought I was getting a Netgain 11” motor but the Kostov 11” showed up in its place. I was bummed at first but it was only $1800 delivered so I can't complain too much. It's only a 96 volt 4000 rpm motor. Even though I can go 50mph in 2nd gear, I shift earlier so the motor RPM is lower. I drive in 4th or even 5th gear on the freeway. It's super quiet. 

The Kostov has it's terminals in an awkward place. I was already out a few thousand for EV parts. I didn't want to spend another $280 on a motor clamp. I was anxious to get the thing on the road so I swallowed hard and welded some metal to the motor and bolted the makeshift clamp in place to the frame. So far, this configuration has held fast for over 1500 miles. 

I have found that the Curtis controller acts like a current transformer at lower RPM. When I pull only 100 amps from the battery, the controller is actually delivering 420 amps to the motor. Driving at lower RPM helps my range considerably.


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## kc7ekk (Oct 17, 2008)

dtbaker said:


> not saying its 'bull', just a little skeptical.
> 
> exactly what wheel bearings did you replace with? and what tires? I'm certainly willing to try.....


Wheel bearings were just normal ones from O'Riley. The old ones had over 225K miles on them and were very loose. Replacing vs. re-packing just made sense to me at the time. 
The tires are Hankook tires from Les Schwab. 185R's I believe. I used to have 225's so these are much thinner and shorter. 
Tires alone increased my top speed from 70mph to 85mph (measured via GPS). 

As an experiment, I screwed a piece of sheet metal over the truck's grill. This simple 15 minute $14 mod reduced my sustained current draw by 6 amps or 720 watts. I performed some A-B-A tests to make sure what I was seeing was accurate. It was. 

The smooth rims and wheel skirts didn't give me as large of an improvement but they do help. The air dam is my latest addition and I am still measuring it's performance increase. Jury is still out on that one. 

I have yet to make/install an aero cap from the top of the cab to the top of the tailgate. 
My rear bumper could also use some help because I believe it is acting like a parachute at freeway speeds.


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## tomofreno (Mar 3, 2009)

> If I keep it at 50-55mph, I can go 50 miles with 80% DOD. My average current draw is about 100Amps at 120 Volts.
> If I keep it at 60mph, I can travel the whole 40 mile distance and arrive home at 80% DOD. My average current draw is 120 Amps at 120 volts
> If I keep it at 55mph, I can travel the whole 40 mile distance and arrive home at 50% DOD.
> It's amazing to me the additional load that air speed adds.
> ...


Good data, thanks! I saw the range on your blog but not the currents, would be good to have them there and on the evalbum so people can see what to expect in performance for that vehicle/setup.

You must have some voltage sag pulling about C/2 current, so maybe pack voltage of 110V or so when driving at 55-60 mph? 

At 60 mph you draw 120A and it takes 2/3 hr to go the 40 miles to 80% DoD. So that would say 100% DoD would be about 2*120/(0.8*3) = 100Ah capacity at 120A discharge current.

At 50-55, say 53 mph, you draw 100A and it takes 0.94 hr to go 50 miles to 80% DoD. Then 100% DoD would be about 100*0.94/0.8 = 118Ah capacity at 100A. That is a Peukert exp a bit less than a T-890 battery has, and better than a T-1275, so seems reasonable for Costco 6V batts. Will be interesting to see how long they last.

I would think one of the largest contributors to drag force in a pickup would be the bed. I didn't see on your blog, did you do an eccomod to the bed? Edit: see you answered this while I was typing this post.


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## Guest (Nov 13, 2011)

Stock wheel bearings? Stock Tires but thinner? Maybe putting in higher pressure but I find I am still a bit skeptical of your results. However the things you have done are in the right direction. The reason you run at lower rpm is because the sweet spot of the Kostov is lower than lets say the Warp11. It too is a slower rpm motor but makes up in torque.

Do a coast down test. Do the test three times in each direction to get a good average. Find a good flat road that you can do this on with minimal traffic and be accurate. Take a passenger to record the required data. Then post a graph. Get to 75 mph then put in neutral and at 70 mph take a reading of speed and time and if you have a stop watch that would be great. Just record the time posted at 10 mph intervals until you stop. Do this three times each direction to counter any ups and downs in the road your have chosen. Post your graph with time and speeds. I plan on doing this as soon as possible. Do it on a wind free and rain free day. This will give you a good starting point before you make modifications. If you can remove some of the mods before doing the test then one at a time do the test after each modification and compare graphs. See if you can SEE a difference. This is how you test. This will show you reality. As long as your consistent you will SEE the results of your modifications.




> My Costco batteries are 220Amp hour 6 volt batteries. Doing the math, for 20 of these batteries making up a 120Volt battery pack, that's 26.4KWh.
> After driving 40 miles at 50-55mph, I am only at about 50% DOD when I charge it back up. After the batteries are full, the Kill-A-Watt meter reads ~13KWh of energy used to charge the pack. That works out to an energy usage of 325 watt-hours/mile.
> Given this figure, my theoretical max range would be 81 miles assuming no Perkert effect. My actual max range is just over 64 miles


325 watt-hours per mile works out to 3 miles per 1.05 KWH. I am getting 4 miles per KWH and your putting your truck in nearly the same distance category as my Leaf. So your Truck is nearly as good as the Leaf with lithium and very aerodynamic vehicle. ? My pack is smaller than yours on paper. 

I think you need to figure out a better way to log your information. I don't believe your getting as good of performance and distance as you think. 

The problem here is doing the math rarely ever follows reality with the lead acid batteries. 120 volt 26kwh pack is more like mine in size but I get to use way more of my capacity than you. You say after 40 miles at 50 to 55 mph you still have 50% remaining? I highly doubt that. The math says you might but in reality your closer to being empty. I can see you getting 40 miles at 50 mph but not much more and your batteries won't give you much life either.


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## kc7ekk (Oct 17, 2008)

gottdi said:


> Stock wheel bearings? Stock Tires but thinner? Maybe putting in higher pressure but I find I am still a bit skeptical of your results. However the things you have done are in the right direction. The reason you run at lower rpm is because the sweet spot of the Kostov is lower than lets say the Warp11. It too is a slower rpm motor but makes up in torque.
> 
> Do a coast down test. Do the test three times in each direction to get a good average. Find a good flat road that you can do this on with minimal traffic and be accurate. Take a passenger to record the required data. Then post a graph. Get to 75 mph then put in neutral and at 70 mph take a reading of speed and time and if you have a stop watch that would be great. Just record the time posted at 10 mph intervals until you stop. Do this three times each direction to counter any ups and downs in the road your have chosen. Post your graph with time and speeds. I plan on doing this as soon as possible. Do it on a wind free and rain free day. This will give you a good starting point before you make modifications. If you can remove some of the mods before doing the test then one at a time do the test after each modification and compare graphs. See if you can SEE a difference. This is how you test. This will show you reality. As long as your consistent you will SEE the results of your modifications.
> 
> ...


I am basing my DOD by my battery voltage. I don't have a way to measure specific gravity yet. A 120Volt battery pack makes for easy math. Based on info I have gathered, 12.06Volts for a 12V battery or 120.6 Volts for a 120 Volt pack should be 50% DOD at room temperature. After driving 40 miles at 53mph, my pack voltage is 120.5 volts. I have noticed that the range is a lot less on the bottom 50% of the battery pack than the top half. 
On the charger, my fully charged 120V battery measures 156 volts. Taking it off the charger it will read about 135 volts. When I am pulling 100 Amps, it will dip into the 127 Volt range. After the first 20 miles to work, my unloaded pack reads 132 Volts. After sitting for 10 hours in the parking lot at work all day, my pack reads about 131 volts. On my 20 mile commute home, the voltage while under a 100 amp load will slowly drop from 122 volts down to 106 volts. 
On commutes over 50 miles where I run several errands on the way home from work, the 100 Amp load voltage will dip to 100 volts. At this point, if I am not within 1 mile of my exit, I know I will be in trouble. There is a large hill just before my exit. It seems to kill 5 miles of range just going the last 1/2 mile because it is up hill. 
After the hill, I am home free for the last 3 miles as it is only 30mph and 25mph streets from there. 

The time I drove over 64 miles on a charge, I actually drove 59 miles to my house without incident (most was freeway going only 50-55mph). I decided to push it to a nice square number. I drove past my house for a few more miles on city streets until I went over the large bridge over the railroad track. That killed if and I was lucky to do 20mph for the last 2.5 miles back home. I rolled up the driveway with over 64 miles on the odometer.


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## kc7ekk (Oct 17, 2008)

gottdi said:


> Stock wheel bearings? Stock Tires but thinner? Maybe putting in higher pressure but I find I am still a bit skeptical of your results. However the things you have done are in the right direction. The reason you run at lower rpm is because the sweet spot of the Kostov is lower than lets say the Warp11. It too is a slower rpm motor but makes up in torque.
> 
> Do a coast down test. Do the test three times in each direction to get a good average. Find a good flat road that you can do this on with minimal traffic and be accurate. Take a passenger to record the required data. Then post a graph. Get to 75 mph then put in neutral and at 70 mph take a reading of speed and time and if you have a stop watch that would be great. Just record the time posted at 10 mph intervals until you stop. Do this three times each direction to counter any ups and downs in the road your have chosen. Post your graph with time and speeds. I plan on doing this as soon as possible. Do it on a wind free and rain free day. This will give you a good starting point before you make modifications. If you can remove some of the mods before doing the test then one at a time do the test after each modification and compare graphs. See if you can SEE a difference. This is how you test. This will show you reality. As long as your consistent you will SEE the results of your modifications.
> 
> ...


What is a better way of logging results than actual Odometer Readings and Kill-A-Watt meter energy readings? 
I realize my smaller tires are throwing off the odometer a tiny little bit but I can factor that error our by comparing against Google maps. 

Doesn't the Nissan leaf only use about 50% of its battery pack anyway? I read that it only charges to 80% and discharges to only 30%.


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## Guest (Nov 13, 2011)

We do not know the exact discharge cutoff or the exact full of the Leaf but I always charge to 100% of what I am allowed to charge. I have a 44 mile commute daily and drive at 55 to 65 mph. Today I did nearly 60 miles and still had 21 miles remaining. I have never been into turtle mode. Because I drive on the freeway driving in eco mode is mostly moot. It is mostly for city driving. Makes little difference if you drive freeway all the time. I have checked both in power and eco mode. Eco mode mostly gives better regen. I drop into eco mode when I need to stop or when I get into the city. 

So your 40 miles at 55 mph used actually more than 50%. 

An accurate AH meter would be a good start. Count the AH's you put in and take out. Driving does create an unsteady discharge vs bench tests but AH counting is still good. Voltages can be OK with lead acid due to the fact that they are more linear as you discharge the pack. But with any battery when you remove a load the voltage rises again. That can fool you. 

I have had both lead acid and lithium. I own a Leaf and built a 77 MG with lithium and with the size pack and voltages I used I calculated about 30 miles at 55 and I was able to do that. The cells were consistent but with the lead acid I was only able to get 20 good miles with my 96 volt pack 6 volt batteries. The distance was consistent for lead acid batteries. I could have done more if I had increased my capacity buy adding more batteries and bumping to 120 volts but I highly doubt I could have gotten 40 miles at 55 mph. My Ghia has no grill and had thin tires with 45 psi pressure. Rolled well. 



Pete


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## EVfun (Mar 14, 2010)

kc7ekk said:


> I am basing my DOD by my battery voltage. I don't have a way to measure specific gravity yet. A 120Volt battery pack makes for easy math. Based on info I have gathered, 12.06Volts for a 12V battery or 120.6 Volts for a 120 Volt pack should be 50% DOD at room temperature.


Here is one chart for the SOC vs. resting voltage for a lead acid battery. Even this is optimistic for a battery in EV service because as state of charge gets lower the current the battery can put out without the voltage crashing to 1/2 the nominal voltage gets lower and lower. At some point well before the battery is discharged you cannot get the current needed to sustain higher speeds or climb even a slight grade without the voltage crashing (which will heat and damage the battery.)

I could get about 36 amp hours out of my group 34 Optima yellow top batteries. These are 55 amp hour batteries. I could, by driving with an egg under my foot, get up to 21 miles out of 10 of them.


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## DavidDymaxion (Dec 1, 2008)

I've had a theory for years that travelling in heavy but fast traffic helps mileage or range. I think all the cars create a mass air flow that helps you along. When I lived near Los Angeles my gas mileage was 20% higher than when I moved to a less crowded area -- the mass air flow thing was the only difference I could figure out. Kc7ekk's route is quite flat (bordering the Great Salt Lake) and few stops, but with fairly heavy traffic during the rush hours. Also, the altitude of the Great Salt Lake is 4200 ft (1300 m), so he has roughly 10% less air to fight due to thinner air at altitude. Finally, on his long range run he might have had a bit of wind at his back. I get a huge difference in gas mileage on my dinosaur exploding machines depending on the wind direction.

Anyway, Kc7ekk, nice looking truck! I love the "Mooneyes" style wheel covers and the aeromods you are doing. Are you aware of Kyle's truck? He has a white Toyota that looks just like yours, including the wheel covers -- I thought maybe you had bought his truck until I read that you had a Kostov http://www.evalbum.com/3175 . There is a 3rd white Toyota truck in the area http://www.evalbum.com/3750 . I had thought air cooled German cars were dominating the Utah conversion scene but it looks like white Toyota trucks are making a run on that honor! BTW I have a Kostov in my machine, too. I'm planning to do some aeromods and narrow wheels (first year of the car had 4 inch rims, I'm planning to buy a set). You can see my car at http://ExplodingDinosaurs.com .

There is a Utah electric car club, http://groups.google.com/group/UtahEVinterest , I'd encourage you to check it out if you haven't already.


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