# New Company Help!! Startup here in NJ



## Electric Car-Nut (Jul 5, 2009)

Hi, Steve, First let me say the best of luck to you on an EV startup in the current economic climate. 

Regarding a Government Grant for a startup, My negative experience has been even though I incorporated as a Non-Profit, I was told until you are in successful business for two years no Government agency will give you a Grant. However, you may be able to share a grant with your local "State employment agency" as they are given lots of grant opportunities to share with several "Sub Grantees" who provide employment and "On Job Training" for their workers. So talk with the "Grant" person at "Workforce"

If you look at the thread for Electric Vehicle Technical Institute Inc. I am Dennis, that is my startup and I've been working at fund raising for over a year. We need to share positive and negative experiences and help each other as our locations make us non-competitive, And as a former Secondary Special Ed and both secondary and Adult Vocational Instructor for 20 years I am sympathetic to your cause. I DO WISH YOU LOTS OF LUCK! 

Check out my website at http://Home.RR.COM/ElectricVehicle My contact info is there too. I think I can save you some "Dead Ends" also. 

Answering your other questions,A few AC systems are available thru dealers and they sell controller and motor as a matched design pair. However Series DC is much more common, economical and well proven. 

Manual transmissions have been the favorite as some modifications need to be made to the automatics and they are heavier and use "some" Hp. to control the transmission shifting. Using NO transmission can be done but a more powerful motor/controller is necessary.

Batteries, ThunderSky has had a bad reputation in the distant past, many others are available with a more reliable customer service reputation. Some report improvement...

The "Best" business plan (IMHO) is to have people bring you their drivable auto/p-up for conversion, pay for the kit and labor to install at $9,000 + $5,000 and when you complete the job in two weeks or so they drive their EV home! And your $5,000 is already in your Bank! Where as building a complete conversion and then attempting to sell it at a profit can be impossible.

Package Marketing has been done with SOME success on E-Bay and Craig's List, and even in local newspapers! That is where the customer pays, then a vehicle is purchased and Converted, and Delivered in a time frame of about 30 days.

So Steve, contact me, You may want to Franchise my Institute and use your conversion shop to teach EV Service, Repair, Building and Conversions. I think we could help each other...

Best Regards,
Dennis Miles, (Director)
Electric Vehicle Technical Institute Inc.
in Tampa Bay Region of Florida
---Phone: (863) 289 - 0690 ---


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## Qer (May 7, 2008)

stevesnj said:


> 3. Transmission - some say Auto is the way to go some say Auto won't work. I believe that the trans fluid in an Auto needs to be pumping at all times to work. So I may need to buy a manual trans?


On THIS question I can give you some feedback at least (the rest not so much). Dimitri, our happy(?) Guinnea pig, run our controller in a car with automatic transmission. He jury rigged up a resistor that made the motor run at low rpm at all times which worked fairly well although the RPM increased when the fluid got warmer. I also think he did something to the shifting point of the tranny so it shifts at higher RPM than it did with ICE since electric motors are more efficient at higher RPMs.

Now we've added an idle rpm-function in the controller to be able to support not only automatic transmissions but also servo pumps, AC etc. Sure, it probably cut down the range a few percent to add stuff like that, but I, personally, believe that most people out there DON'T want a Beetle stripped to the bones. 

Manual transmission is probably the most efficient choice though, but I wonder if the difference is that huge with a modern tranny.

Direct drive is cool, however that doesn't go for the motor (being cool, that is). Since voltage over the motor follows RPM (more or less) it means to get the same amount of power you need to raise the current as RPM drops. This means you need a bigger controller but it ALSO means that the heat generated in the motor increases (since losses are proportional to current), which is the reason efficiency drops. This also means that you need better cooling of the motor. For a car that has to be able to do >100 km/h this might still mean that, for example, going slowly uphill will overheat the motor unless you choose a seriously over dimensioned motor. Probably not a practical solution for a commuter.



stevesnj said:


> I will have more updates on the company progress...wish me LOTS of luck!


Good luck! There's a lot of things to keep track of and tons of annoying details that can go wrong. Read a lot before you start, begin with the wiki and forum here, don't forget to read and watch http://www.kiwiev.com/ and ask a lot of stupid questions!


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## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

stevesnj said:


> So one of my last year seniors and I purchased a 1990 Mazda Miata and we have removed the engine and trans. and are in the process of removing the gas tank (not easy).


Someone here - evlowrider - just showed some pics of a very clever way of removing the fuel tank from above... he's in New Zealand where they call the Miata the MX-5. Search for the thread here.




stevesnj said:


> 1. Government Grant, Tax Credit, or Loan for starting an EV Conversion Company...is there any available?


There are tax credits for the customer, yes, and there are government grants, etc., for the shop, but practically speaking you won't be able to get one until you have an established business. A classic "Chicken or the Egg" type of scenario.




stevesnj said:


> 2. Motor Type - Siemens 1PV5135WS28 3 Phase Induction Motor. Wanted to use AC Propulsion kit but may not happen they don't deal with the common man.


That is an impressive motor, for sure, but given that it is specifically produced for at least one EV (THoRR), I doubt you'll be able to buy it.

Same for the ACP stuff... they don't deal with individuals and low-volume conversion shops. If you insist on AC then for now your options are Curtis, HPG and Solectria.




stevesnj said:


> 3. Transmission - some say Auto is the way to go some say Auto won't work. I believe that the trans fluid in an Auto needs to be pumping at all times to work. So I may need to buy a manual trans?


Auto trannies work perfectly fine, and they seem to waste only slightly more power when driving than a manual (I don't have any "apples to apples" data on this, though). You do need a controller that can "idle" the motor - this is a function that is in beta test right now for the Soliton1 - but you can "kludge" this function by modifying the throttle pot so it doesn't return to 0 except when starting (see fellow member dimitri for more info on this).

Frankly, most people are not going to give up automatics, power steering or a/c just to "go green", so taking the range hit to idle the motor is pretty much inevitable.




stevesnj said:


> 4. Batteries - Had my eye on Thunder Sky Batteries ThunderSky 160Ah


We don't have extensive experience with them yet, but their capacity seems to be accurate (unusual for a Chinese manufacturer, to say the least) and the prices they are going for truly make lead non-competitive unless up-front cost is the ONLY consideration.




stevesnj said:


> 5. Marketing to convert customers ICE vehicle to EV. - A big hurdle if not the biggest.


The best thing you can do is to do a really nice conversion and put your company's name/website on it then drive it around everywhere you need to go. People WILL be interested, and they will call/seek you out.

One bit of business advice: you probably want to team up with an experienced mechanic, especially one who knows about running a shop, because it is really easy to underestimate the amount of labor involved in a conversion, and the computers in late model vehicles will give you fits if you don't know how to fool them.


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## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

Electric Car-Nut said:


> Sorry Dude, The Swevicishe quotes comezn oit as gibberisch and therefore fail to amuse 95% if the readers.


Relevance to thread?


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

This thread is taking an odd turn, especially considering the original post was 8 months ago  Dennis, what's with the hostility?


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

Electric Car-Nut said:


> AC propulsion must be purchased thru one of their dealers, and they only make the Controller,the motor comes from "Lincoln" and they sell as a matched design pair.


Hi Dennis,

Please give me your source or otherwise verify that the ACP motor comes from "Lincoln". 

Thanks,

major


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## rbgrn (Jul 24, 2007)

Electric Car-Nut said:


> ???? Look to "Qer" his post at 5:25 Yesterday??? What is all that giberish the bottom half of Qer's post. That is what I'm talking about.
> 
> Don't try to start a war with me, "Tesseract," I graduated from "Dixie Hollins High School in Kenneth City And back in the '60s It was the toughest bunch of kids in Pinellas County. And with 20 years of teaching experience including two years teaching Special Ed. in a Youth residential detention facility I know all the "Wise acre" comebacks.
> 
> ...


Electric Car Nut,

Let me clear up a few things:

1) The swedish thing is a joke signature. It's on every post of Qer's. You can have a signature as well. It's controllable in the User CP.

2) Tesseract is a long time, major contributor to this site, meaning he's helped many people through their conversions.

3) I read the thread and didn't see anyone trying to "start a war" with you. Not sure where you're coming from on that. He commented on your comment about the swedish signature and replied on some points.

You're welcome to be here but I'll say what I say to everyone: Play ball or get out of the ballpark. People are not here to fight or cause problems. Please treat others with respect. If you have a problem with someone, please report it to me before making a public scene.

Thank you.


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## Electric Car-Nut (Jul 5, 2009)

Ok Mr Green, I've been mostly lurking in the background under another name for seven months before I changed my E-mail to [email protected] and installed myself under that name instead. I am a lot more familiar with conversions and I have been in Electricity and Electronics since 1957 so I have many valid points and concepts which I enjoy sharing. Both here and on the EVDL list.

Unfortunately, I sometimes read and comment before taking my Hypertension Medication and I get unsocially belligerent until a half hour after taking the prescribed medications daily. Now that my blood pressure is near normal, I would like to say I am sorry I was far too belligerent in my comments to Tesseract, in fact he is one of the individuals I was hoping to get to know, from contact on this forum. (I'm told by friends in Black Bay near Tarpon Springs that his Solatron 1 design is very good actually.) 
Because I have a Bachelors in Business and a propensity to give mostly correct and helpful advice, there are many threads I want to contribute to. In a positive way, but I hadn't noticed how OLD the first or opening request for information was. In my opinion, it would be useful to arrange the posts that start threads to give some measure of timeliness like "Todays replies," and to be able to track from those to the earlier parts of those topics of interest.

As you said,"You're welcome to be here but I'll say what I say to everyone: Play ball or get out of the ballpark. People are not here to fight or cause problems. Please treat others with respect. If you have a problem with someone, please report it to me before making a public scene." 

I am appreciative of your willingness to grant me a second chance to be polite, I will try.

Sincerely, Respectfully, Dennis "Electric car-nut"

PS: My wife may have pegged me correctly, She put a banner on my office wall that says, "Everyone is Entitled to My Opinion ! D.


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## Electric Car-Nut (Jul 5, 2009)

Hi Major, 

< Regarding, "Please give me your source or otherwise verify that the ACP motor comes from "Lincoln". Thanks, major > 

I was told by Wayne, whom I consider a reliable source that when he ordered an AC system from his supplier, (IIRC, it was EV Parts) who is a dealer for ACP that the controller was labeled with a nameplate from ACP but the motor nameplate said "LINCOLN" (same company that makes Lincoln Welders.) The finished S-10 was having a sh sh sh shudder problem at second and third gear shift and accelerate that was finally cured by firming up the motor mount, it was too soft. Because the AC system was so difficult to troubleshoot, he has put a BIG 350 hp series DC motor in his new personal vehicle an "El-Camino" He says the takeoff almost strains his neck and easily smokes the tires even with most of the batteries in the back between the frame rails under the bed. He says that if someone will buy "Electric Blue Conversions" then he wants to move to Florida! I told him seriously I would like to hire him to teach at my school, "Electric Vehicle Technical Institute Inc." in the Tampa Bay Region.

So, Major, although it might be hearsay in court I trust my source. Dennis, [email protected]


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Electric Car-Nut said:


> there are many threads I want to contribute to. In a positive way, but I hadn't noticed how OLD the first or opening request for information was. In my opinion, it would be useful to arrange the posts that start threads to give some measure of timeliness like "Todays replies," and to be able to track from those to the earlier parts of those topics of interest.


Each post and reply has a date next to it.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Electric Car-Nut said:


> Hi Major,
> 
> < Regarding, "Please give me your source or otherwise verify that the ACP motor comes from "Lincoln". Thanks, major >
> 
> I was told by Wayne, whom I consider a reliable source that when he ordered an AC system from his supplier, (IIRC, it was EV Parts) who is a dealer for ACP that the controller was labeled with a nameplate from ACP but the motor nameplate said "LINCOLN" (same company that makes Lincoln Welders.)


I didn't think ACP used dealers. Lincoln Welders doesn't make motors that I'm aware of. Lincoln Motors was bought out by Leeson a while back.


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

JRP3 said:


> I didn't think ACP used dealers. Lincoln Welders doesn't make motors that I'm aware of. Lincoln Motors was bought out by Leeson a while back.


Lincoln (the Cleveland, OH based company which has welders as the main product line) used to have a motor division (across the street) which made induction motors. The Lincoln Motor Division was bought by Regal Beloit a few years ago, maybe 5 or 6. Regal Beloit owns several motor companies including Leeson and Marathon. I think most of the Lincoln motor product was merged with Marathon, but may in fact still carry the Lincoln nameplate as a product line, not company name.

Lincoln Motor Division did make motors for Solectria, which was bought by Azure Dynamics. So I think the system Dennis is referring to is an Azure AC drive, not AC Propulsion (the company of Alan Cocconi fame). To my knowledge, ACP has the motors built to their spec by a contractor, which is not Lincoln nor has ever been. But things change, so if Dennis has some new news about motors, I'm all ears. That is why I inquired. I haven't been in touch with any of the Lincoln motor guys for a couple of years. I used to see a lot of them, almost weekly.

Regards,

major


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## Electric Car-Nut (Jul 5, 2009)

Major, and JRP3, 

I was told by Wayne, (from ElectricBlue.com) whom I consider a reliable source that when he ordered an AC system from his supplier, (IIRC, it was EV Parts) who is a dealer for ACP that the controller was labeled with a nameplate from ACP but the motor nameplate said "LINCOLN" (_possibly_ the same company that makes Lincoln Welders.) 

Or so we both thought as it looked like the same style lettering.
but that is all I know about it. Wayne phoned me for an opinion as to what the problem was with the system but my suggestions were the same as his industrial electrician Brother In Law and we were both wrong, it was a too soft motor mount cushion.


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

Electric Car-Nut said:


> I was told by Wayne, (from ElectricBlue.com) whom I consider a reliable source that when he ordered an AC system from his supplier, (IIRC, it was EV Parts) who is a dealer for ACP...........


Hi Dennis,

I agree with JRP3 that ACP has never used dealers. I cannot see where EVParts sells them. But this might be the source for Wayne http://www.electroauto.com/catalog/acmotors.shtml 

That looks like the Lincoln motor.

Regards,

major


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## Electric Car-Nut (Jul 5, 2009)

Major,
Sorry, if any of the very minor details were wrong. I am simply not that concerned. 
My original comment was intended to show that AC systems are available. I am not selling them. I prefer at this point in the development of Conversions to use a DC series motor with an appropriate Controller. It is JUST MY OPINION, you can spend your money on whatever you want to. This generation of Conversions are getting too pricey IN MY OPINION . Many used Prios (I always spell that wrong.) available in the $20K range so a Conversion needs to be under $18K to be Marketable (IN MY OPINION) especially if the Glider is "Blue Booked at under $3K" and I want my students to own a financially viable business and that mandates a profit. IMHO DC systems are very drivable.


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## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

Now that things have settled down a bit....

Dennis, I'm really perplexed as to why you "picked a fight" with Qer in the first place. I may be a prickly, stereotypical engineer but he is almost always eminently pleasant and friendly here.

With respect to his desire for privacy, Qer has a real "day job" working for a major multinational corporation; the EVnetics stuff is strictly a side project for him, so if he'd rather not post his name publicly please respect that. I may have more or less given up that right w/r/t EVnetics because I am a partner in the firm, but his position with us is more like a trusted and valuable consultant, not even an employee much less a part-owner (though I wouldn't be averse to making him one).

Now, as for your jibes about the sales of the Soliton1 and it's lack of presence on the EV Album... well, it's only been available for about 3 months now, and that started the same day that EV Components announced they were resuming production of the Zilla... 

I could go into a whole list of reasons why the Soliton1 pretty much puts the boot up the proverbial posterior of even the mighty Z2K, but I'm hardly unbiased so why bother? Let's just say, though, that the Zilla hasn't changed all that much in its 10+ years of existence, but technology sure has. So, put your money on the "dinosaur" if you want, but that might not be the smart bet... 

Regardless of which controller is "better", though, if you really want to promote EVs - and this is whether you like me personally or not - you ought to _cheer_ for every competitor that wades into the controller market, because the situation definitely sucked when the choices were limited to the Zilla and everybody else. That is, unless you think a 6 month backlog on new orders and a 3 month turnaround time on repairs is acceptable (and oh yes, Zillas did have to get repaired - the myth that they never broke is apparently just that: a myth!)

Anyway, I'd prefer it if we could all just get along - especially since you are all of about 40-50 miles away from me and I drive to Orlando often to hit Skycraft surplus (no self-respecting engineer can resist a good surplus store) and visit my sister.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Tesseract said:


> Dennis, I'm really perplexed as to why you "picked a fight" with Qer in the first place. I may be a prickly, stereotypical engineer but he is almost always eminently pleasant and friendly here.


He actually did explain it:


> Unfortunately, I sometimes read and comment before taking my Hypertension Medication and I get unsocially belligerent until a half hour after taking the prescribed medications daily. Now that my blood pressure is near normal, I would like to say I am sorry I was far too belligerent in my comments to Tesseract, in fact he is one of the individuals I was hoping to get to know, from contact on this forum. (I'm told by friends in Black Bay near Tarpon Springs that his Solatron 1 design is very good actually.)


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## Electric Car-Nut (Jul 5, 2009)

Tesseract,
OK, I was out of line. I admit to sometimes getting all worked up over nothing. And I am willing to publicly state that I was out of line. Now, I would like to "Bury the Hatchet" and I do not mean in your back! Mr Green has given me another chance to "Play Nice" and I promised to be "Good" so Will you forgive me and perhaps eventually become a Friend? 
With Sincere Regard,


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## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

No need to ask for forgiveness, Dennis - I'm fairly thick-skinned 

You should maybe shoot me a PM or an e-mail to jsj at evnetics dot com, though.


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## Electric Car-Nut (Jul 5, 2009)

Somebody clue me in, 

Why didn't anyone reply to the April 13th post that Steve asked several questions concerning a Conversion Shop Start-up ? 

Was it just the date? 

Did I fall for a tease?

If so well LOL, -))

But if not, we may have turned him totally off and feeling we are all a bunch or uppity elitists and secretive snakes...

I believe in EVs as the world's solution and I will help anyone who's intentions are similar.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Personally I never saw the thread at the time, and I don't know anything about starting an EV business anyway. People did answer his other threads, but he disappeared.


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## stevesnj (Apr 13, 2009)

JRP3 said:


> Personally I never saw the thread at the time, and I don't know anything about starting an EV business anyway. People did answer his other threads, but he disappeared.


HAHA yeh im still working on this, I have the company name and just getting the proper paperwork for the business. Turns out there is a federal requirement to register as a ICE to EV conversion company. ugghhh but my company logo is being made up. I just wish loans would be available to conversion startups but most money is only new EV manufacturers like Tesla that just got $400 + million when i just need $80,000 to get going. The energy department, EPA, NJ green vehicles and others wont even return my calls. So much for helping out the small guy!!


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Glad you're making progress but I can't say I'm surprised that a new company with no real product as of yet doesn't get much government assistance. Tesla got a loan, and they had products coming off the assembly line already.
Your conversions should be eligible for some rebates when finished.


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## stevesnj (Apr 13, 2009)

JRP3 said:


> Glad you're making progress but I can't say I'm surprised that a new company with no real product as of yet doesn't get much government assistance. Tesla got a loan, and they had products coming off the assembly line already.
> Your conversions should be eligible for some rebates when finished.


Yeh from what i can tell its up to 4k per conversion.


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## stevesnj (Apr 13, 2009)

Still working on the company, I have a name for the company and will share it once it is registered this upcoming week. 

I also have a few interested ICE to EV convertors 'interested' since they heard the projected price of gas for the summer of 2010 is supposed to top $3+ gallon!

Hmm I see a lot of SUV's going up for sale already...lol


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## AmpEater (Mar 10, 2008)

stevesnj said:


> Turns out there is a federal requirement to register as a ICE to EV conversion company.


Could you elaborate on this?


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## Electric Car-Nut (Jul 5, 2009)

AmpEater said:


> Could you elaborate on this?


Yes, Please enlighten us, why are you registering with the Federal Agency? and Which Agency? And Who told you that you had to? This is the first I have heard of it...


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## stevesnj (Apr 13, 2009)

Hey everyone, I'm still alive, like you care , the name of my company is Volta Electric Vehicles LLC. www.voltaev.com (just a starter but need to start somewhere).

To the question of Federal requirements to convert ICE to EV.. here is the link. I interpret this as my company will have to conform to EPA and Crash tests with a heavy battery system. Did I read this right?

http://www.afdc.energy.gov/afdc/vehicles/conversions.html

Federal Incentives

http://www.afdc.energy.gov/afdc/laws/search?p=search&location[]=US&tech[]=3270&select_all_incentive=y&incentive[]=3249&incentive[]=3233&incentive[]=3246&incentive[]=3243&incentive[]=3234&incentive[]=3284&incentive[]=3236&incentive[]=3244&incentive[]=3237&incentive[]=3838&incentive[]=3843&incentive[]=3239&incentive[]=3844&incentive[]=3842&incentive[]=3841&select_all_user=y&user[]=3260&user[]=3261&user[]=3262&user[]=3263&user[]=3264&user[]=3265&user[]=3269&user[]=3848&search_button.x=50&search_button.y=14&search_button=y

For incentives in your neck of the woods (state) use this search..http://www.afdc.energy.gov/afdc/laws/state


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

As long as you stay within the GVWR I think you'd be alright, but don't take my word on it.


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## stevesnj (Apr 13, 2009)

Still having problem with funding. Banks see this as a dead end so they won't take the risk and I can't get a personal loan so I buy stuff when I can.

The company is Volta Electric Vehicles LC

www.voltaev.com

Hope things move quick soon, I'm getting frustrated!


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## rwaudio (May 22, 2008)

stevesnj said:


> Still having problem with funding. Banks see this as a dead end so they won't take the risk and I can't get a personal loan so I buy stuff when I can.
> 
> The company is Volta Electric Vehicles LC
> 
> ...


You need to get a few conversions under your belt, then take those results to the bank and you might have more luck. I like the title page, but you need a functioning website unless you have a physical store or other conversion with your logo on it etc. Even then if someone saw your name then tried the website they might give up since there is nothing there.

Good luck.


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## dtbaker (Jan 5, 2008)

uh, yeah.

nice graphics, but no substance.
you need a portfolio to show experience, costs, programs available, etc.

where are you, who are you, what have you done, what is your plan..... what is your business plan, who is doing the work, what space do you have lined up, what CUSTOMERS do you have lined up?


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## JRoque (Mar 9, 2010)

Hi. Dan's got a good point there Steve. I'm not sure your state will be able to help much seeing all the money (and Gov) issues there. But I'd write up your business plan and knock on small business administration's door. There's also some new tech monies left from the Prez initiatives that you might be able to tap into. 

Hints for business plan draft: 
1) You'll have little to no competition and that's always good to show in a project plan. 
2) People want EVs but can't buy them so market is there.
3) Most folks already like their ICE cars so conversion will give them best of both (as oppose to having to settle egg-shaped commercial EV)
4) In many cases, its cheaper to convert than to buy a new EV - if you can find one.
5) Gas prices are high and unstable at best.

Private funding will be scarce for this type of non-traditional business. Even big car companies are getting public funding for it. 

JR


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