# Re: [EVDL] Renault/Nissan? Gas Stations, etc.



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Renault/Nissan? Gas Stations, etc.*

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Roger Heuckeroth" <[email protected]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, March 18, 2009 9:46 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Renault/Nissan


>
>


> Rush wrote:
> >
> >>
> >>
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Renault/Nissan? Gas Stations, etc.*

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Renault/Nissan? Gas Stations, etc.*

Bob's point is well taken. Why can't we use the standard outlet as a
standard? There are many of them already available. Wouldn't it be
frustrating to have an EV that could use a sip of electrons parked
next to an incompatible duplex outlet? Onboard chargers seldom go over
50 amps, so a standard range outlet could handle all the quick
charges.

If the charging station is going to supply DC, then a special outlet
would be needed. Supplying DC sounds like a nightmare to me.



> Evan Tuer <[email protected]> wrote:
> > On Wed, Mar 18, 2009 at 2:47 PM, Bob Rice <[email protected]> wrote:
> >>
> >
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Renault/Nissan? Gas Stations, etc.*



> storm connors <[email protected]> wrote:
> > Bob's point is well taken. Why can't we use the standard outlet as a
> > standard? There are many of them already available.
> 
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Renault/Nissan? Gas Stations, etc.*

Current connector is not suitable for toasters either, but somehow we
manage.  Perhaps we should have a special connector for microwaves?
A different one for toasters, and yet another for lights.

Where does it end?



> Evan Tuer <[email protected]> wrote:
> > On Thu, Mar 26, 2009 at 2:44 PM, storm connors <[email protected]> w=
> rote:
> >> Bob's point is well taken. Why can't we use the standard outlet as a
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Renault/Nissan? Gas Stations, etc.*

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Renault/Nissan? Gas Stations, etc.*



> storm connors <[email protected]> wrote:
> > Current connector is not suitable for toasters either, but somehow we
> > manage.  Perhaps we should have a special connector for microwaves?
> > A different one for toasters, and yet another for lights.
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Renault/Nissan? Gas Stations, etc.*



> Robert Johnston <[email protected]> wrote:
> >
> > When someone comes up with, implements, and mandates use of a proper
> > connector. Like BS 1363 (For example):
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Renault/Nissan? Gas Stations, etc.*

Robert Johnston wrote:
>


> storm connors <[email protected]> wrote:
> >
> >> Current connector is not suitable for toasters either, but somehow we
> >> manage.  Perhaps we should have a special connector for microwaves?
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Renault/Nissan? Gas Stations, etc.*



> John G. Lussmyer <[email protected]> wrote:
> > Robert Johnston wrote:
> >> On Thu, Mar 26, 2009 at 09:23, storm connors <[email protected]> wrote:
> >>
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Renault/Nissan? Gas Stations, etc.*



> storm connors wrote:
> > Bob's point is well taken. Why can't we use the standard outlet as a
> > standard? There are many of them already available. Wouldn't it be
> > frustrating to have an EV that could use a sip of electrons parked
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Renault/Nissan? Gas Stations, etc.*



> Lee Hart <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> >
> >
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Renault/Nissan? Gas Stations, etc.*

Robert Johnston wrote:
>


> John G. Lussmyer <[email protected]> wrote:
> >
> >> or the existing CS6364 which handles 50A at 240V.
> >>
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Renault/Nissan? Gas Stations, etc.*



> Lee Hart <[email protected]> wrote:
> > storm connors wrote:
> >> Bob's point is well taken. Why can't we use the standard outlet as a
> >> standard? There are many of them already available. Wouldn't it be
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Renault/Nissan? Gas Stations, etc.*

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Renault/Nissan? Gas Stations, etc.*

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----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Renault/Nissan? Gas Stations, etc.*

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Renault/Nissan? Gas Stations, etc.*

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Renault/Nissan? Gas Stations, etc.*

> From: Evan Tuer 

> you really expect them to bodge a connector designed 60 years ago for
> installing ranges onto their cars just to keep the US DIY market
> happy? 

You mean North America ain't special? =)}

How hard can this be? One female connector
to match what's on the car. One foot or
30 cm of heavy cable. One male connector
to match what's on the wall. One screwdriver,
three beer, and voila! You have an adaptor.

I can foresee that until some universally
despised system (remember VHS vs. Beta?)
gets running as a standard, that carrying
your "Johnny Cash A-Daptor Kit" would be
a good thing.

Chuck
Homebuilt Lead Sled

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----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Renault/Nissan? Gas Stations, etc.*

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "storm connors" <[email protected]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, March 26, 2009 10:44 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Renault/Nissan? Gas Stations, etc.


Bob's point is well taken. Why can't we use the standard outlet as a
standard? There are many of them already available. Wouldn't it be
frustrating to have an EV that could use a sip of electrons parked
next to an incompatible duplex outlet? Onboard chargers seldom go over
50 amps, so a standard range outlet could handle all the quick
charges.

If the charging station is going to supply DC, then a special outlet
would be needed. Supplying DC sounds like a nightmare to me.

For sure! DC would be fed into a car with a train-like massive conecter, 
like ya see between Amtrak's cars, that can do 500 [email protected] volts.These 
would be in a special,substation along the freeway for half hour charges!Of 
course it would give ya gobs of DC. Rich Rudman must be fantising the 
prospects? No more wimpy PFC-20's Howbout a PFC -500 or more?There would be 
an attendent to open up yur hood and incert the charge plug, but you could 
too. Amtrak has gal electricians that plug in the coaches to each other , 
and to "shore Power". I pull and insert them with one hand, they are easy 
for ME! Worked the power change crew in the train yard, we swapped Diseasels 
to electrics in 5 minutes! Marvelled that they could handle brutal amounts 
of power and be easy to manage. A standard here? Yeah!? Why not? They WORK, 
hidiously expensive, but maybe Anderson Power Products could come up with a 
"civilian" one?In all my ground crew career did I see a "blown" out one, 
that we had to use a loco to tear apart!Oh it came apart! Pulled the cables 
out of the conduit!OOPS! Shop time!!

Again , my plea for simple tested, proven standards, borroweed from Train 
Yards, Campgrounds or just plain old 120 volt OUTLETS whatever the hell they 
are called?In Nema speak? Evan Tuer sent a nice link to stuff ya can get in 
the UK that looked nice, though, BEYOND 50 amps.

Seeya

Bob


> Evan Tuer <[email protected]> wrote:
> > On Wed, Mar 18, 2009 at 2:47 PM, Bob Rice <[email protected]> wrote:
> >>
> >
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Renault/Nissan? Gas Stations, etc.*

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Zm8vZXYKCg==


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Renault/Nissan? Gas Stations, etc.*



> Evan Tuer wrote:
> >>> Why can't we use the standard outlet as a standard?
> 
> Lee Hart wrote:
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Renault/Nissan? Gas Stations, etc.*

Evan,
You may have this wonderful system, but you need somewhere to plug it
in. How do you convince your local businessmen to spend $1000 for your
convenience? I don't foresee one of these stations within 30 miles of
my house in the next 10 years.

If the "standard" will allow adaptation to a standard 15a 120v outlet
then it is usable. If it cleverly prevents that, then the vehicle
would be unsalable to me. When I see connections for "sensors" in the
standard it raises all sorts of red flags.

They can produce all the idiot proof expensive unavailable crap they
want as long as I am not 'required' to use it.

Who is going to build the thousands of 150A locations for you to plug
in? I am not sure it can happen and I am less sure it is desirable. I
can see thousands of EVers coming home at 6PM and each pulling 150A
off the grid.


>
> Guys, again, the proposed new connector does *not* have the DC
> contacts that the old Avcon one could. Thus making it cheaper and
> more compact.
>
> All my EVs have (a version of) that, and can be fast charged with an
> off-board charger at up to 150A DC, but the connector is clumsy and
> expensive.
>
> The new one is closer to the IEC 60309 in style, and carries vastly
> more AC current than the Avcon did. This is much more useful for now.
>
>



-- =

http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/1059
http://stormselectric.blogspot.com/
Storm

_______________________________________________
General EVDL support: http://evdl.org/help/
Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
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Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Renault/Nissan? Gas Stations, etc.*

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Renault/Nissan? Gas Stations, etc.*

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "storm connors" <[email protected]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, March 27, 2009 1:52 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Renault/Nissan? Gas Stations, etc.


Evan,
You may have this wonderful system, but you need somewhere to plug it
in. How do you convince your local businessmen to spend $1000 for your
convenience? I don't foresee one of these stations within 30 miles of
my house in the next 10 years.

If the "standard" will allow adaptation to a standard 15a 120v outlet
then it is usable. If it cleverly prevents that, then the vehicle
would be unsalable to me. When I see connections for "sensors" in the
standard it raises all sorts of red flags.

They can produce all the idiot proof expensive unavailable crap they
want as long as I am not 'required' to use it.

Who is going to build the thousands of 150A locations for you to plug
in? I am not sure it can happen and I am less sure it is desirable. I
can see thousands of EVers coming home at 6PM and each pulling 150A
off the grid.

Good point! As EVerybody WILL plugerin when they get home? So ya set up 
your outlet and E rates to encourage using power from 11pm to, say, 6AM when 
the grid pretty much goes to sleep?Don't they, the E co's read yur meter by 
wire or something nowadaze? I never see the Meter Reader anymore?IF 
Electricity was sold by DEMAND?Higher rates at Prime time? I THINK CA does 
that, now?Not quite to the point where ya run yur house on batteries and 
CHARGE them on Off Peak rates?But do-able I guess?

Seeya

Bob
>
> Guys, again, the proposed new connector does *not* have the DC
> contacts that the old Avcon one could. Thus making it cheaper and
> more compact.
>
> All my EVs have (a version of) that, and can be fast charged with an
> off-board charger at up to 150A DC, but the connector is clumsy and
> expensive.
>
> The new one is closer to the IEC 60309 in style, and carries vastly
> more AC current than the Avcon did. This is much more useful for now.
>
>



-- 
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/1059
http://stormselectric.blogspot.com/
Storm

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Renault/Nissan? Gas Stations, etc.*



> storm connors <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> > Who is going to build the thousands of 150A locations for you to plug
> > in? I am not sure it can happen and I am less sure it is desirable. I
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Renault/Nissan? Gas Stations, etc.*

>
>> Who is going to build the thousands of 150A locations for you to plug
>> in?
>
> Storm, are you really not bothering to read before you type a reply?
> I've said now three times that the DC fast charge contacts are *not*
> present in the new proposed plug, they *were* present in the old
> Avcon.
>
> And clearly it was only used at fast charge locations, not your home.
>
What you said:
"All my EVs have (a version of) that, and can be fast charged with an
off-board charger at up to 150A DC, but the connector is clumsy and
expensive.

The new one is closer to the IEC 60309 in style, and carries vastly
more AC current than the Avcon did. This is much more useful for now."

"Vastly more current" translates in my mind to over 150Amps. It may
be clear to you "that this wouldn't be used at home ."

See if I understand what you think is a reasonable approach. We should
equip all our vehicles with the capability of charging at 150
amps AC which can only be used at a public high capacity charging
station. Normal charging at home would be at some lower amperage.
Would this use the same connector? Would my house wiring need to be
modified to plug in the EV? If I went to a friend's house could I plug
in there without having him rewire his house? How much would the "high
capacity public charger" cost? Who will be paying for it?

How much will the high capacity charging capability add to the cost of
my EV? If there are no "high capacity public charging stations"
available in my area, what is the benefit to me of this extra expense?

Is the special connector you are in favor of capable of being adapted
to a standard 15A outlet? If not, it is "water water everywhere and
not a drop to drink". If it is adaptable, what is the point beyond
increasing sales.

If you have one of Rudman's chargers, all you need to worry about is
figuring out how to connect it to the outlet you encounter and not
drinking faster than the circuit allows.

If super high amperage charging requires some special connector, I can
live with that. If adopting it means I can no longer sip at the
ubiquitous already installed outlets, it is just a scam.
Storm

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Renault/Nissan? Gas Stations, etc.*



> storm connors wrote:
> 
> > What you said:
> > "All my EVs have (a version of) that, and can be fast charged
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Renault/Nissan? Gas Stations, etc.*

Thanks Roger.

Lucid as usual.

I suppose it is just me, but coming up with a system that ignores the
already installed infrastructure sure seems counterproductive. I have
20A 240v in my garage. Here's hoping you are correct about the Level
I charging. Not sure why the public outlet needs to receive signals
from my vehicle. I guess the intelligent cable will attempt to make up
for the lack of intelligence of the operator.

storm

If you are satisfied charging from 120V 20A or less, then you are
using Level I charging and don't need anything more complex than an
ordinary cord.
>
> As soon as you want to plug in an EV to 220VAC (in North America), you ar=
e talking Level II charging and are subject to a bunch of additional requir=
ements on the vehicle/outlet connection. This is why public charge stati=
ons *will* use a J1772 or other non-conventional outlet, and you will have =
to use an intelligent adapter cable to provide the required signals to the =
outlet if you wish to take advantage of these higher power public charge po=
ints.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Roger.
>
> _______________________________________________
> General EVDL support: http://evdl.org/help/
> Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
> Archives: http://evdl.org/archive/
> Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>
>



-- =

http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/1059
http://stormselectric.blogspot.com/
Storm

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Renault/Nissan? Gas Stations, etc.*

I went looking for J1772 and found it doesn't specify an outlet yet.
Talking about possibly using a Yazaki outlet. This is where the Level
I , II and III comes from.

On Sat, Mar 28, 2009 at 12:12 AM, storm connors <[email protected]> wr=
ote:
> Thanks Roger.
>
> Lucid as usual.
>
> I suppose it is just me, but coming up with a system that ignores the
> already installed infrastructure sure seems cou and finnterproductive. I =
have
> 20A 240v in my garage. Here's hoping you are correct about the Level
> I charging. Not sure why the public outlet needs to receive signals
> from my vehicle. I guess the intelligent cable will attempt to make up
> for the lack of intelligence of the operator.
>
> storm
>
> If you are satisfied charging from 120V 20A or less, then you are
> using Level I charging and don't need anything more complex than an
> ordinary cord.
>>
>> As soon as you want to plug in an EV to 220VAC (in North America), you a=
re talking Level II charging and are subject to a bunch of additional requi=
rements on the vehicle/outlet connection. This is why public charge stat=
ions *will* use a J1772 or other non-conventional outlet, and you will have=
to use an intelligent adapter cable to provide the required signals to the=
outlet if you wish to take advantage of these higher power public charge p=
oints.
>>
>> Cheers,
>>
>> Roger.
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> General EVDL support: http://evdl.org/help/
>> Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
>> Archives: http://evdl.org/archive/
>> Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>>
>>
>
>
>
> --
> http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/1059
> http://stormselectric.blogspot.com/
> Storm
>



-- =

http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/1059
http://stormselectric.blogspot.com/
Storm

_______________________________________________
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Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
Archives: http://evdl.org/archive/
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----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Renault/Nissan? Gas Stations, etc.*

Roger wrote -

(among lots o' other good stuff) -


> As soon as you want to plug in an EV to 220VAC (in North America), you are 
> talking Level II charging and are subject to a bunch of additional 
> requirements on the vehicle/outlet connection. This is why public charge 
> stations *will* use a J1772 or other non-conventional outlet, and you will 
> have to use an intelligent adapter cable to provide the required signals 
> to the outlet if you wish to take advantage of these higher power public 
> charge points.


I think you've hit the nail on the head here Roger - If we 'hobbyists' want 
to plug into 'their' commercial Level II stations, then we will have to make 
one more adapter that is intelligent and will provide the signals that will 
start the electrons flowing.

What I am hoping for is that someone (with a little more technical knowledge 
than I have), will step up to the pedestal, so to speak, and either produce 
that Intelligent Adapter for a 'fair' price or either open source the 
circuit/schematics so that we can all build one and have more than one place 
to charge from.

We could conceivably cut down on the number of batteries in our packs since 
we wouldn't have 'charging anxiety'. We could use our EV's more often since 
we would be charging at Wal-Mart's, then at McDonalds, then at Home Depot, 
then at the Superdome while we watched the game - the fast charging would 
make all day driving a dream.

I find that it could really be a win-win situation, we just have to do it.

Rush
Tucson AZ 

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Renault/Nissan? Gas Stations, etc.*

It will be a long time before anyone puts in a "public charging
station" anywhere around here. Might be able to have some outlets made
available.

The view from out in the country is way different from that of city
dwellers relative to charging stations.

If you can take a sip wherever you go, fast charging isn't necessary.

>
> We could conceivably cut down on the number of batteries in our packs since
> we wouldn't have 'charging anxiety'. We could use our EV's more often since
> we would be charging at Wal-Mart's, then at McDonalds, then at Home Depot,
> then at the Superdome while we watched the game - the fast charging would
> make all day driving a dream.
>




-- 
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/1059
http://stormselectric.blogspot.com/
Storm

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----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Renault/Nissan? Gas Stations, etc.*



> storm connors <[email protected]> wrote:
> > It will be a long time before anyone puts in a "public charging
> > station" anywhere around here. Might be able to have some outlets made
> > available.
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Renault/Nissan? Gas Stations, etc.*

Where did I say it wouldn't be useful?? What I'm saying is that it
won't be available out in the sticks. Getting the local hardware store
to install a $1000 "charging station" would be an exercise in
futility- especially when I have the only electric vehicle within
driving distance. (There will be a second if Dave gets a bigger pack).
OTOH, I may be able to convince him to put in an accessible outlet
which would help. If it was a 220v outlet it would help more.

Just because you would like 80 amps at 240v doesn't mean that 15amps
at 120v wouldn't be useful.



> Evan Tuer <[email protected]> wrote:
> > On Mon, Mar 30, 2009 at 1:36 AM, storm connors <[email protected]> w=
> rote:
> >> It will be a long time before anyone puts in a "public charging
> ...


----------

