# Charging Stations vs. Battery Swapping Stations



## xrotaryguy (Jul 26, 2007)

This thread is a continuation of the off topic mess in the Lindsy Williams thread. 



> Swapping seems to work well in the cordless market. Anyways, it's clear your against that idea so lets drop that... moving on. The advantages of electric cars are obvious to those who know about them. Why do TV stations only show short clips, if any, about EVs? Maybe because the government owns them? aka FCC. I don't know. There's much too little information given to the general public. Maybe there needs to be some >100mph hot pursuit EV chases. That would get more media attention. People, including Senator Kyl, are ignorant that's all. People do what they do because it's all they know, or are allowed, to do. If all the EV owners, who spent 10g+ on their builds, got together, they could have founded a company by now. Together we stand, united we fall.





> When I can hold an EV battery pack in one hand then I'll admit it could work, though it better run longer than the 15 minutes my drill does.





> I can screw all day with mine.  I was only compairing oranges to bigger oranges.
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## mattW (Sep 14, 2007)

Battery swapping only makes sense if you don't own the batteries, i.e. the project better place model. I wouldn't want to drop off a $20 000 battery pack, and i don't think service stations would be willing to make that huge an investment for people to just rent them. It requires standardised battery packs, and some way to transfer all that weight. I actually think project better place will do really well if they get running properly, but it is not without difficulty and takes a lot of investment.

Charging stations would probably shorten battery life and take a pretty decent infrastructure upgrade but it would probably work ok. If you drove for 2 hours and charged for 30 minutes it would be something like a 2C/8C discharge/charge cycle which decent LiFePo's could probably handle ok. 

I think we are going to have to rethink the whole concept of how we do cross country travel in the not too distant future...


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

There is so much wrong with the swapping concept as I've pointed out, but I think the most important thing to realize is it's just not necessary. For long distance trips, rent a gas vehicle, or a hybrid. Or, even after I have an EV I'll certainly have an ICE as a second vehicle. For most of my driving life I've had at least 2 vehicles on the road and have no problem keeping an ICE as a second vehicle for a long trip or really cold weather.
Truthfully though, if I could never travel more than 200 miles in one day for the rest of my life I'd be fine with that.


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## lazzer408 (May 18, 2008)

You guys are still thinking bassed on what you know about the world -today-. Obviously no one wants to exchange a $20,000 battery pack for a pack they know nothing about. The hope would be that once that infrastructure was decided, costs would come down. Think of how much a cordless drill was when they first came out. The cost of nicad batteries was also very high. Now every buddy and their brother uses them and their alot cheaper then they were. I don't think it's that far fetched to imagine a system like that in place for an EV.


Personally I'd be happy just pluging it in at home.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

I wouldn't want to exchange even a $5,000 pack, and we are a loooong way off from that, if ever. Frankly Nicad drill batteries are not what I'd call cheap these days either, and when I change out a battery I know how that battery has been treated. I don't swap batteries with my neighbors, or strangers.


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## ga2500ev (Apr 20, 2008)

Presuming that EVs become the standard mode of transportation, I agree with Matt that we would need a new concept for long distance travel.

The easiest to do from a concept standpoint, but hardest from infrastructure is to electrify the highways and transfer power inductively. It has promise because since it's coupled with batteries, you don't have to do the whole road at once. You can space the charging plate 10 miles apart for example and transfer enough energy in a 1 mile stretch to carry the batteries for the next 9 miles. After completing that project you then put the next set of plates halfway between. Keep at it until there's enough infrastructure to carry the average vehicle from plate to plate. Charge a toll to run an EV on that road to pay for it.

I'm still wondering if heated liquid nitrogen can be cost effective. I'm still working through the U Washington paper on ultra low emission vechicles to see about its cost effectiveness. At the time they were working with $2/gal diesel and the liquid O2 was cost competitive.

ga2500ev


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## judebert (Apr 16, 2008)

> when I change out a battery I know how that battery has been treated. I don't swap batteries with my neighbors, or strangers


If the batteries were in standard packs that included management, you would know how the swapped batteries had been treated.



> You guys are still thinking bassed on what you know about the world -today-.


You want to think to the future?

I propose eliminating the whole problem: build an electric highway to everywhere, so you never have to drive your car more than 10 miles or so. You drive up to the highway, get on a moving platform, and it takes your car to your exit. Then you drive to your destination. At any stopping point, you can opportunity charge. I prefer Inductrack for the moving platform, but any electrically driven vehicle will do, even a trolley.

Of course, it's a big project. But it would provide loads of jobs, jump-starting the whole economy the same way Roosevelt's and Eisenhower's highway projects did. It would please environmentalists, because all those platforms would be moved efficiently and silently with electricity, reducing emissions. It's good for safety, if you build it the right way (won't somebody please think of the children?). And it'll please you, because you use a lot less energy (gas or electricity), and a part of your travel turns into free time instead of commute. You could go all the way to Vegas without any stress at all.


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## mattW (Sep 14, 2007)

I think a decent train infrastructure could work well with the option to drive your car into a container on the train and drive off at the other end, sort of like those big ferries.


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## VDubber (Jun 2, 2008)

mattW said:


> I think a decent train infrastructure could work well with the option to drive your car into a container on the train and drive off at the other end, sort of like those big ferries.


Bingo.

They have one of those "Auto Trains" already that runs from D.C to Florida:

http://www.amtrak.com/servlet/Conte...m2Route/Vertical_Route_Page&cid=1081256321200


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## adric22 (Jan 17, 2008)

I think if everybody switched to EVs tommorow for their primary cars.. The best solution for long trips would be:


Airplanes
Trains
Buses
rent a gas or hybrid car
This could really help the rental industry too. Right now the only markets they really serve is air-travellers and people who have been in a car accident. I think if more people drove an EV everyday, we'd have more people renting trucks to move large objects (instead of driving a truck every day for the off chance that once a year they actually need to move something) and people wanting to go on a long trip.

For the occasional use, I think renting a vehicle for a day is much cheaper than trying to keep one maintained and have to drive a vehicle everyday for a commuter when it was intended for hauling things.


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## saab96 (Mar 19, 2008)

mattW said:


> Charging stations would probably shorten battery life


With crappy batteries maybe. You can't just treat batteries like eggshells. A depleted battery is a useless vehicle.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

ga2500ev said:


> Presuming that EVs become the standard mode of transportation, I agree with Matt that we would need a new concept for long distance travel.
> 
> The easiest to do from a concept standpoint, but hardest from infrastructure is to electrify the highways and transfer power inductively. It has promise because since it's coupled with batteries, you don't have to do the whole road at once. You can space the charging plate 10 miles apart for example and transfer enough energy in a 1 mile stretch to carry the batteries for the next 9 miles. After completing that project you then put the next set of plates halfway between. Keep at it until there's enough infrastructure to carry the average vehicle from plate to plate. Charge a toll to run an EV on that road to pay for it.
> 
> ga2500ev


I had a similar idea a while back, and it's been done in a test situation:
http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/technical/830-recharging-go.html


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