# The Lithium-Titanate cells and batteries - real experience?



## evpower (Aug 9, 2013)

I searched this site for info on lithium-titanate cells (LTO) and batteries, came up empty. These seem like a possible solution for high speed charging, especialy considering the extremely long lifespan. Any thoughts or experiences and especially real facts?


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## hbthink (Dec 21, 2010)

Phoenix motor cars used them, nobody has used them since but expect them to show up again soon. Cost is 30% greater but lifecycle shows a 10x improvement. Batteries you'd essentially never replace. Can handle extreme C ratings both directions.

Steve


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## tylerwatts (Feb 9, 2012)

Too good to allow onto the market! Oil tycoons won't let us have them!


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## PhantomPholly (Aug 20, 2008)

Yeah, that's the fun conspiracy side. More likely they are just struggling to run a profitable business.

It ain't easy...


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## PhantomPholly (Aug 20, 2008)

Huh, just found this:

http://cleantechnica.com/2014/09/16/toshiba-provide-fast-charging-batteries-proterra/

So Toshiba is licensing the technology and offering them through some channels. They are claiming over 10,000 cycles, and the ability to run them down deeper in cycle makes up for most of the difference in "advertised" energy density.

Toshiba Product Info Page
News story on Energy Storage System using SCiB batteries (7 months ago)
Another Power Storage solution
And, apparently the Mitsubishi i-MEV uses SCiB Batteries

So - they're not dead - yet.


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## tylerwatts (Feb 9, 2012)

Ha! I'm going to look at and buy a complete 2011 i-MIEV minus shell on Friday. I wonder how you tell which battery type it has. Anyone know?


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## PhantomPholly (Aug 20, 2008)

Here are some part numbers for the cells.


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## tylerwatts (Feb 9, 2012)

Brilliant. Thanks Phantom. I'll be seeing the vehicle Friday and arranging when to collect the entire thing in bits not long after that.


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## PhantomPholly (Aug 20, 2008)

Yeah, it's a real shame that these haven't taken off. Must be some way to get the price per watt competitive with other LiIon chemistries - these have so many more life cycles and resistance to temperature extremes and can be run DOD without ill effect. 

If I could ask for a birthday present it would be for someone to develop a cathode that is equal in performance improvement to / compatible with the anode in these batteries. That would up them to about 700-1000Wh/Kg, with a useful life of 10,000-20,000 cycles. Then it would be "game over" for the guessing game about when "batteries will be good enough." 300 mile range, recharge in 10 minutes, no more worries about a cold day...


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## rochesterricer (Jan 5, 2011)

IIRC, only the Japanese version of the i-MIEV uses the SCiB cells, not the US model.


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## PhantomPholly (Aug 20, 2008)

rochesterricer said:


> IIRC, only the Japanese version of the i-MIEV uses the SCiB cells, not the US model.


That is annoying! I wonder if it is because they are having difficulty manufacturing enough cells, or just can't get the cost down?


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## TooQik (May 4, 2013)

If you know someone who can import a vehicle from Japan then this might be of interest for someone seeking the SCiB cells:

http://page2.auctions.yahoo.co.jp/jp/auction/b168338547


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## PhantomPholly (Aug 20, 2008)

I'm more curious why they aren't simply making them available to the public. Clearly they are selling them globally as power storage units for grid backup.

Maybe it has to do with the cost of support - if you only have a few clients your support costs stay down. Still seems a bit dumb, you can outsource such things.


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## TooQik (May 4, 2013)

Here's a new article from back in 2010, stating Toshiba were setting up support in North America for the SCiB batteries out of Houston: http://incompliancemag.com/toshiba-establishes-north-american-sales-a-support-for-scibtm-battery/ , did this not happen?

There's some contact infromation (possibly outdated) at the bottom of the article for anyone interested in following up. I'd do it myself but I'm in Australia and I've recently purchased EnerDel modules for my conversion.


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## PhantomPholly (Aug 20, 2008)

Thanks for the link. Wish there were something more recent as a follow-up, something the newsies don't seem much interested in anymore. Would particularly be interested to see if the reliability claims hold water.


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## Shawncrockett (Dec 26, 2014)

I saw a huge pack on Alibaba for a 12v 400 amp pack for $1,000. Altairnano a company out of reno Nevada is selling them.


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## piotrsko (Dec 9, 2007)

Altair is just a small building with managers and a couple of techs anymore. Main Business is based in China.

They wouldn't even answer my questions on purchasing a system. Their battery systems were low current long draw like a proper grid backup system, pricey and heavy.


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## PhantomPholly (Aug 20, 2008)

piotrsko said:


> Altair is just a small building with managers and a couple of techs anymore. Main Business is based in China.
> 
> They wouldn't even answer my questions on purchasing a system. Their battery systems were low current long draw like a proper grid backup system, pricey and heavy.


That sounds like they were selling something other than Lithium Titanate systems - which is entirely possible since they are clearly struggling. 

LiTi cells were only slightly less energy-dense than other forms of LiIon cells, but were capable of much higher C rates and deeper discharge without serious degradation.


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## Shawncrockett (Dec 26, 2014)

They claim 30,000 cycles is that realistic?


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## PhantomPholly (Aug 20, 2008)

Shawncrockett said:


> They claim 30,000 cycles is that realistic?


The company site was "only" claiming 16,000 cycles. Given a battery pack with a 100 mile range, that would equate to 1.6 million miles before the battery pack would have to be replaced.

Put another way, if you had one of their batteries and ran it through a full cycle ever day and it "only" lasted 10,000 cycles, that's over 27 years.

So, even if they only get, say, 10,000 cycles I doubt anyone would complain much...


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## PhantomPholly (Aug 20, 2008)

Just ran across this company making a home storage solution using Lithium Titanate. 
- 3.2Kwh
- 120Kg (from a review)
- 15,000 cycles including some percent of those cycles being 100%DoD
- Designed to be modular - just add more packs

Am not finding any pricing, though. Also sounds a good bit heavier per Kwh than Tesla's batteries. But, if price were good might make for a simple conversion in a light pickup truck, for example.


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## Hollie Maea (Dec 9, 2009)

PhantomPholly said:


> Also sounds a good bit heavier per Kwh than Tesla's batteries.


You could say that...a 3.2kWh pack of Tesla batteries would have a grand total cell weight of...12 kg.

Of course, for stationary situations, who cares? Cycle life is way more important.


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## rochesterricer (Jan 5, 2011)

I remember the stated energy density of this chemistry being somewhere between lead acid and LiFePo4.


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## PhantomPholly (Aug 20, 2008)

Hollie Maea said:


> You could say that...a 3.2kWh pack of Tesla batteries would have a grand total cell weight of...12 kg.
> 
> Of course, for stationary situations, who cares? Cycle life is way more important.


Well, and to be fair this is a "package" and probably contains balancing and other electronics. But yes, it is heavy.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

evpower said:


> I searched this site for info on lithium-titanate cells (LTO) and batteries, came up empty. These seem like a possible solution for high speed charging, especialy considering the extremely long lifespan. Any thoughts or experiences and especially real facts?


Should have checked your own website  

http://www.ev-power.eu/LTO-Cells/

http://gwl-power.tumblr.com/tagged/LTO


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## electrodacus (Mar 29, 2014)

I will be curios to know if there is any storage ageing test done on those LTO batteries.
How long will someone expect a new car to last ?
Cars are usually replaced now about every 5 to 10 years so if other components fail before battery is there any advantage of a long cycle life?
10 years with a full recharge every day will be in the 3000 cycles where many other Lithium batteries can compete.
It seems it is safe but so is LiFePO4.
Large car manufacturers still seems to prefer Lithium cells with higher energy density over life cycle or ability to charge at high rate.
I was not looking in to batteries for some time now is there good availability for large capacity LTO cells?
I'm more interested in stationary energy storage so the energy density is less important so is the high charge discharge rate.
I think an ideal battery for OffGrid energy storage will need to be able to last 25 years any more than that is not appealing.
So it should not age very fast and have 5000 to 7000cycles at 60 to 70% DOD but maybe even less than this can be OK based on my data only some days I use 100% or a bit over 120% of the battery capacity most other days is just about 40%.
The fact that I use 100% or over has to do with the fact that I have more charge discharge cycles over the day.
So with 120% I'm referring to the fact that 120% of the battery capacity was extracted in one day from the battery example 2x 60% DOD cycles.
That is do to the fact that there is a variety of loads during the day so battery is charged and discharged depending if the solar PV production is smaller or higher than the load at a certain time.
I can post a graph if someone is interested but it will be off topic here.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

electrodacus said:


> How long will someone expect a new car to last ?
> Cars are usually replaced now about every 5 to 10 years so if other components fail before battery is there any advantage of a long cycle life?


I think the average life of a car is over 11 years now, and increasing.



> I was not looking in to batteries for some time now is there good availability for large capacity LTO cells?


No. They seem about impossible to find.


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## electrodacus (Mar 29, 2014)

JRP3 said:


> I think the average life of a car is over 11 years now, and increasing.


With more and more technology in the car and self driving car in a few years there will probably be legislation for older cars so that 11 years may drop. 



JRP3 said:


> No. They seem about impossible to find.


I guess they did not find an inexpensive way to manufacture them.

Even the LiFePO4 is a small fraction of the more popular LiCoO2 variants.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

electrodacus said:


> With more and more technology in the car and self driving car in a few years there will probably be legislation for older cars so that 11 years may drop.


Unlikely. There is a huge market of classic vehicles that would be destroyed.


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## electrodacus (Mar 29, 2014)

JRP3 said:


> Unlikely. There is a huge market of classic vehicles that would be destroyed.


Sure there be a market for that but it will be small.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Your proposed legislation would kill that market. Plus it would force people who could not afford a newer vehicle to get rid of their old one. Not going to happen.


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## electrodacus (Mar 29, 2014)

JRP3 said:


> Your proposed legislation would kill that market. Plus it would force people who could not afford a newer vehicle to get rid of their old one. Not going to happen.


With self driving cars less people will own a car. I for one can not wait for that time. Owning a car is expensive and driving one dangerous.


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## pm_dawn (Sep 14, 2009)

I have seen a company show large LTO cells on their website.
Both with Iron phosfate and with manganese 

http://www.cpecpower.com/cpzxLO/list_42_cid_23.html

I have not seen any trace of any actual batteries, but they could exist.

I could send them an E-mail and check for prices.

They atleast show 90ah LTOM (Manganese) cells....


Regards
/Per E


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## electrodacus (Mar 29, 2014)

pm_dawn said:


> I have seen a company show large LTO cells on their website.
> Both with Iron phosfate and with manganese
> 
> http://www.cpecpower.com/cpzxLO/list_42_cid_23.html
> ...


Thanks for that link. I never seen those and they have a LTOF20310230(1.8V80AH) 
combination between Lithium iron phosphate and Lithium titanate with just 1.8V nominal and 30000 (30k) cycles almost like hybrid supercapacitors.
Not sure in what application will I use those but looks really interesting.
That is like 80 years with one cycle/day not sure if they age fast or not.
I seen an age degradation graph from Sony LiFePO4 and they only tested one year and extrapolate data for 20 years considering a linear degradation in storage.
at 23C was about 3% degradation in 20 years and at 45C was about 10% after 20 years.

Just got an application in mind for wind turbine buffer storage or grid buffer.


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## PhantomPholly (Aug 20, 2008)

JRP3 said:


> I think the average life of a car is over 11 years now, and increasing.


Actually, 11.5 years is the average age of a car. Average lifespan is thus about 23 years - or put another way, if EVs were suddenly cheaper than any ICE vehicle we would see all EVs on the road except for a couple of jalopies and collectors' vehicles in about 23 years.


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

PhantomPholly said:


> Actually, 11.5 years is the average age of a car. Average lifespan is thus about 23 years - or put another way, if EVs were suddenly cheaper than any ICE vehicle we would see all EVs on the road except for a couple of jalopies and collectors' vehicles in about 23 years.


If 23 years is the average life of an IC car then after 23 years about half of them would still be on the road
So we would have to wait a while longer before _we would see all EVs on the road _


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## PhantomPholly (Aug 20, 2008)

Duncan said:


> If 23 years is the average life of an IC car then after 23 years about half of them would still be on the road
> So we would have to wait a while longer before _we would see all EVs on the road _


Duncan, I can always count on you to fail at math questions!

"Average Age" means sum of all ages / number of cars. Mathematically, half of all cars will be older and half will be older than the AVERAGE AGE.

In other words, average lifespan is 2x average age.


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

PhantomPholly said:


> Duncan, I can always count on you to fail at math questions!
> 
> "Average Age" means sum of all ages / number of cars. Mathematically, half of all cars will be older and half will be younger than the AVERAGE AGE.
> 
> In other words, average lifespan is 1/2 average age.


No
First the average is not the mode so you can't say
_"Average Age" means sum of all ages / number of cars. Mathematically, half of all cars will be older and half will be younger than the AVERAGE AGE._
One car could be 100 years old and 9 cars could be 1 year old 
The average age would be 10.9 years but only 1 car would be older than that

Second
the average age and the average lifespan are not linked 
Back to my previous example - you cannot predict lifespan from average age


If you have an "average age" of 23 years and a normal distribution half of the cars will be older than 23 years

If you have an "average lifespan" of 23 years and a normal distribution then half of the cars will live longer than 23 years

I don't know where you got 
_average lifespan is 1/2 average __age

_possibly the same place as you got the idea of paying more than 50% in taxes?


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## dcb (Dec 5, 2009)

Duncan said:


> _"Average Age" means sum of all ages / number of cars. Mathematically, half of all cars will be older and half will be younger than the AVERAGE AGE._


nope, the average of 1, 5, 6 is 4. 2/3 are above the average. If there are more newer cars than older cars, and there are a few really really old cars, then the average does not split the population neatly in half. You are thinking of the median perhaps, basically you sort the collection by age, and pick the value in the middle.


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

Hi dcb
Originally Posted by *Duncan*
_"Average Age" means sum of all ages / number of cars. Mathematically, half of all cars will be older and half will be younger than the AVERAGE AGE.

__This was posted by the Phantom 

I was quoting it to say it was incorrect

I said

No
First the average is not the mode so you can't say
"Average Age" means sum of all ages / number of cars. Mathematically, half of all cars will be older and half will be younger than the AVERAGE AGE.
One car could be 100 years old and 9 cars could be 1 year old 
The average age would be 10.9 years but only 1 car would be older than that_


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## PStechPaul (May 1, 2012)

_Phantom fails math once again! _

Here are some sources for the figures presented:

http://www.autonews.com/article/201...ar-light-truck-on-road-hits-record-11.4-years (rises to record 11.4 - 8/6/13)

http://press.ihs.com/press-release/...ins-steady-114-years-according-ihs-automotive (remains steady at 11.4 - 6/9/14)

The second article projects this to remain steady and then rise to 11.7 by 2019.

http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/money/autos/story/2012-01-17/cars-trucks-age-polk/52613102/1 (11.8 - 1/17/12)

So there is some discrepency. But this article states that average age was 8.4 in 1995. 

This phenomenon may have several causes. From 1995 to about 2000 the US produced many economical and long-lasting vehicles, such as my 1999 Saturn which is still not rusted out like most 16 year old cars, and it gets an average 35 MPG. Since the beginning of this century Detroit returned to the power/performance mantra, and CAFE did not increase very much, especially during the GWB/Cheney big oil administration. The economic crash of 2008 put a hurting on US auto makers, as well as purchasers, so people kept their vehicles longer. Many of the vehicles that sat in new car lots were gas-guzzling SUVs and trucks, now no longer wanted by consumers who felt the pain of reduced income and soaring gas prices.


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## PhantomPholly (Aug 20, 2008)

Duncan said:


> No
> First the average is not the mode so you can't say
> _"Average Age" means sum of all ages / number of cars. Mathematically, half of all cars will be older and half will be younger than the AVERAGE AGE._


Duncan, a mistake borne of haste does not excuse your buffoonery. Average lifespan is approximately 2x Average Age, not 1/2 (I was at lunch and in a hurry and typed it wrong, but expressed the right notion so bugger off - you are still a total buffoon). My initial statement was correct: "Actually, 11.5 years is the average age of a car." 

Yes, you can backpedal and try to distract from the fact that your post was utterly stupid by pointing out that Median Age and Average Age are not precisely the same - but there is a reason that real-life Physicists use "Pi = 3.0" - it is because it is "close enough" to reality.

Really, you may see a few 100 year old cars running about, but by 30 years 95% of all cars have ceased to exist. By 23 years over 90% have converted to scrap, and for all practical purposes at that point the entire fleet has turned over.

In fact, that pretty much sums up your argumentation skills. You try to find an outlier, and claim that it is representative of the whole. Par for the course for someone whose entire political point of view is based on theft, slavery, and utter dominance of the government over individuals.

Well, if you ever manage to actually refute any of the numbers I provided on taxation I might take you seriously - at least for a minute. Since you can't, and haven't , you remain a mathematically challenged buffoon.


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## PhantomPholly (Aug 20, 2008)

dcb said:


> nope, the average of 1, 5, 6 is 4. 2/3 are above the average. If there are more newer cars than older cars, and there are a few really really old cars, then the average does not split the population neatly in half. You are thinking of the median perhaps, basically you sort the collection by age, and pick the value in the middle.


Yes, the median is technically the point in the value in the middle where half are above and half are below. However, for purposes of calculating how long it would take for "almost all" vehicles to be replaced by EVs, "Average" works out just fine. Only a very few vehicles, usually well cared for, survive past 2x average vehicle age.


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

Hi Phantom
Now you have worked out that 1/2 does not equal 2 have you redone your tax calculations and found they agree with what everybody else says?


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## tylerwatts (Feb 9, 2012)

Take it offline please. No need to insult each other, just politely identify errors and post what you think it should be. The rest of us will need to decide ourselves which we agree with and if one is correct then of course that will be followed. No more bickering please.


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## pm_dawn (Sep 14, 2009)

electrodacus said:


> Thanks for that link. I never seen those and they have a LTOF20310230(1.8V80AH)
> combination between Lithium iron phosphate and Lithium titanate with just 1.8V nominal and 30000 (30k) cycles almost like hybrid supercapacitors.
> Not sure in what application will I use those but looks really interesting.
> That is like 80 years with one cycle/day not sure if they age fast or not.
> ...



I got a price indication from the company on the LTOM cells (2,4v 45ah) cylindrical cells. They run at 180$ a pop.......

That is a bit over my price range........

Regards
/Per


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## electrodacus (Mar 29, 2014)

pm_dawn said:


> I got a price indication from the company on the LTOM cells (2,4v 45ah) cylindrical cells. They run at 180$ a pop.......
> 
> That is a bit over my price range........
> 
> ...


That seems expensive at first look about 1650$/kWh
But in some applications this may be extremely inexpensive.
The LiFePO4 is usually at around 400$/kWh so 4x less but LiFePO4 can last 3k to 6k cycles where those can last if spec is to be trusted 30k cycles so potentially 5 to 10x more energy over they life.
But they will not work in EV or Solar you need an application with about 10 charge discharge cycles / day to take advantage of them.
Super capacitors are quite similar they are also cost effective but there you need hundreds of cycles/day to be cost effective.
It will also be really hard with such a large cell to be able to verify the 30k cycles claim.
I will get one if they had a 1Ah cell or something like this to test see the degradation after a few thousand cycles.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

As far as I can tell this is an untested product, so no way would I assume it's going to meet the claimed cycle life.


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## johnsiddle (Jun 22, 2011)

Just been talking, via email to Amy at CPEC Power (China) their 90AH Titanate Pouch type cells are not in production at the moment but they have the cylinder cells which they say are more reliable than the Pouch type at $342 ex works plus shipping to the UK (manchester) of about $1000 plus tax.

The have in 45AH cells (20000 cycles) Titanate cells at $108 ex works plus the rest. These run at 2.4v nominal.

They also have LiFePo4 cells 100Ah (3000 cycles) at $108 plus all the rest.

For my 160v system, which ever option is used, its a lot of bucks.
I also emailed the company in Europe using the link one of the other posts had, but they have not replied.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

johnsiddle said:


> Just been talking, via email to Amy at CPEC Power (China) their 90AH Titanate Pouch type cells are not in production at the moment but they have the cylinder cells which they say are more reliable than the Pouch type at $342 ex works plus shipping to the UK (manchester) of about $1000 plus tax.


How many cells/kg/lbs is that shipping cost for?


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## johnsiddle (Jun 22, 2011)

60 ltom cells or 50 lifepo4


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## johnsiddle (Jun 22, 2011)

Wright about 170kg


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## evpower (Aug 9, 2013)

*Re: News for the LTO - cells*

*News for the LTO cells - real tests and photos*

FAQ: LTO – when available?
LTO cells charge and discharge tests
The photo of the LTO CP 10AH cell
LTO - discharge test results - 1C, 2C, 3C

http://gwl-power.tumblr.com/tagged/LTO


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## Hollie Maea (Dec 9, 2009)

*Re: News for the LTO - cells*

What I want to know is, what's the maximum discharge AND charge rate these things can do.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

> We are working on a 24V pack consisting of 10 LTO cells.


http://gwl-power.tumblr.com/tagged/LTO

A 12V pack would be a good idea for direct replacement for some lead acid applications. Tesla seems to have a cycle life problem with the 12V 33ah lead AGM battery in the Model S because of high cycling frequency resulting from a high constant standby load. LTO would seem to be a good solution.


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## nimblemotors (Oct 1, 2010)

Does the Model S really have a lead acid battery as the 12v source?
Doesn't that seem rather odd?



scott glen said:


> When you say Tesla is having a cycle life problem with their 12vdc battery, where do you get that information from, or are you now saying its just a rumor. Post the truth with documentation, or describe it as a rumor. Your false information can and will cause problems.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

scott glen said:


> When you say Tesla is having a cycle life problem with their 12vdc battery, where do you get that information from, or are you now saying its just a rumor. Post the truth with documentation, or describe it as a rumor. Your false information can and will cause problems.


As a long standing member of the Tesla Motors Club forums, as well as this forum, I'm not prone to posting false information. I'm also quite familiar with many of the issues Tesla has had, the 12V battery being one of them. There are a number of posts on that forum discussing the 12V battery issue, as well as this article:

http://www.plugincars.com/tesla-owners-encounter-ev-related-problems-12-volt-battery-129287.html

You would do well to get your own facts in order before accusing others...


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

nimblemotors said:


> Does the Model S really have a lead acid battery as the 12v source?
> Doesn't that seem rather odd?


Which part is odd, that they are using a 12V battery, or that it's lead acid? I think Tesla was not able to lower the standby "vampire" drain as much as they thought, so the 12V battery cycles more than originally intended.


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## evpower (Aug 9, 2013)

*Re: The Lithium-Titanate cells and batteries - update 3/2016*

Some updates to the LTO cells:

Real products for delivery
http://www.ev-power.eu/LTO-technology/

Support information
http://gwl-power.tumblr.com/tagged/lto

Comments are welcome.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Why are there 4 terminals on some of the cells? And the price, ouch.


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## ishiwgao (May 5, 2011)

*Re: The Lithium-Titanate cells and batteries - update 3/2016*



evpower said:


> Some updates to the LTO cells:
> 
> Real products for delivery
> http://www.ev-power.eu/LTO-technology/
> ...


I'm a bit confused. Wasn't LTO suppose to have much higher charge and discharge C rates. It seems like max charge is at 5C and discharge is at 15C, pretty much on par with current lithium ion technology. 

I do agree that with almost 20x the cycle life, there is value in cost per cycle. however, with battery packs becoming much larger, is there really a need for such high cycle life? unless you mean this technology is for small pack large power systems e.g. drag racing etc.


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## johnsiddle (Jun 22, 2011)

JRP3 said:


> Why are there 4 terminals on some of the cells? And the price, ouch.


I cant see many being sold at that price considering the number needed to make a pack.
It would be cheaper to buy a new car or make your one Hydrogen cell if we knew how they worked.


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## Sunking (Aug 10, 2009)

*Re: The Lithium-Titanate cells and batteries - update 3/2016*



evpower said:


> Some updates to the LTO cells:
> 
> Real products for delivery
> http://www.ev-power.eu/LTO-technology/
> ...


Specific Energy is too low at 65 wh/Kg which is what NiCd and PB runs. Additionally the discharge curve is steep. A 100S pack would have a beginning voltage of 280 volts and end voltage of 180 volts. Of course that could be overcome, but the Specific Energy is the deal breaker.

Now for RE energy storage has potential. But price is a deal breaker at this point.


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