# controller for PMS (BLAC) motor



## dubelt (Sep 27, 2011)

I am searching for controllers for PMS (permanent magnet synchronous) motor

Voltage up to 150V
Amperage up to 500A peak
with encoder feedback or with vector control algorithm


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## frodus (Apr 12, 2008)

http://www.sevcon.com/ac-controllers/gen-4-size-8.aspx

Sevcon Gen 4 Size 8


AC permanent magnet synchronous motor
AC induction motor
Up to 400V DC supply voltage
Up to 100kW peak power output
Up to 60kW of continuous power output
Integrated logic circuit
Includes an additional dedicated safety supervisory processor
Will have dual processing and conform to automotive safety standards
IP66 Protection


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## dubelt (Sep 27, 2011)

How about price ?
or price/preformance

I see that it is based on IGBT modules (400V). When driving 120V motor I could use MOSFET controller - less switching losses.


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## frodus (Apr 12, 2008)

Not a huge amount.... IGBT's have come a long way. And the problem with your situation, is that between them and Kelly, they're the only ones that make a 120VDC BLDC motor controller that is commercially available. And I won't recommend Kelly.

Not sure about price, you should contact one of their distributors.

sevcon is a great company with good quality and the performance on the controllers I've seen is good. These are their new line.


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## dubelt (Sep 27, 2011)

Thanks for reply.
I will write inquiry to Sevcon.
Maybe someone else have found other manufacturer.
I have also found Sigmadrive controllers http://www.dmcde.de
But they limit max. to 120V battery supply


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## efan (Aug 27, 2009)

dubelt said:


> Thanks for reply.
> I will write inquiry to Sevcon.
> Maybe someone else have found other manufacturer.
> I have also found Sigmadrive controllers http://www.dmcde.de
> But they limit max. to 120V battery supply


have you heard back from Sevcon??
and may be you can checkout Zapi's AC-5
they show maximum battery voltage of 152V

http://www.zapiinc.com/products/agriculture/ace5


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## dubelt (Sep 27, 2011)

Sevcon is price killer 8750E / unit


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## Gary B (Jun 2, 2011)

dubelt said:


> I am searching for controllers for PMS (permanent magnet synchronous) motor
> 
> Voltage up to 150V
> Amperage up to 500A peak
> with encoder feedback or with vector control algorithm


I'm just curious. - Where did you find that 75 KW PMS > - Gary B.


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## dubelt (Sep 27, 2011)

It is slightly overvoltaged perm motor. nominal voltage 96V.
Due different battery configuration the nominal voltage will be 115-120V.
Motor is rated at 16kW nominal S1, peak 2.2 x 16kW ~35kW


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## sokon (Sep 15, 2011)

before buying a sevcon controller, u might consider my thread on ES

http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=36146


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## dubelt (Sep 27, 2011)

Hmm...
I have to say, it is the reason I did not buy that controller. It was not clear for me why they wanted 900$ for pure usb>can programmer ... now I know. The dealer didn't tell me that this is package of software and programmer kit. I was totally sure that software/programming support was included in controller price.

Over all, it seems to be cheaper to develop my own controller and sell kit version in future.


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## efan (Aug 27, 2009)

so does that mean that using the hand-held programmer a sevcon controller can be paired to an AC motor relatively easy??? if that is the case, it seems reasonable that controller dealers would rent the programmer to their customers, or people planning to use a sevcon would chip in and only buy one programmer...but that's only if the hand-held programmer makes matters easier which I am not sure if it is the case.


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## frodus (Apr 12, 2008)

It's a bit like the Curtis AC controllers. They need a programmer to set them up for the motor and current limits, battery voltage, etc. Many places that sell the controllers will rent a programmer to you. I know ElectricMotorsport and Thunderstruck do.


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## Peterhase (Mar 26, 2012)

Just consider these two options:

http://www.dmcde.de/Pdf/ProController%20Manual_Rev_3.01.00.pdf (120Volt)
http://www.dmcde.de/pdf/sigma2.pdf (upto 144Volt, coming soon)


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## dubelt (Sep 27, 2011)

Thanks for info.

It was first controller I have considered to buy.
Unfortunately there is no available version for higher voltage for PMS motor (max battery voltage in my system is 135V).
These controllers only work with 12bit encoders (I have 8bit)

Second link - sigma2 is not available - coming soon as stated on website.


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## Peterhase (Mar 26, 2012)

what is an encoder... thats new to me!

do I have/need this also on my 1972 Triumph EV-conversion?
.. or this this more modern stuff?

By the way, which PM motor are you using?


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## dubelt (Sep 27, 2011)

Peterhase said:


> what is an encoder... thats new to me!
> 
> do I have/need this also on my 1972 Triumph EV-conversion?
> .. or this this more modern stuff?


encoder is device telling position of motors rotor - used in brushless motors in sensor mode controll



> By the way, which PM motor are you using?


I use brushless PMS150 - 16kW S1, made by perm motors company


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## Peterhase (Mar 26, 2012)

I read the unitek bamocar D3 works well with the perm motors: 

http://www.la-eracing.de/rennwagen.html

see http://www.unitek-online.de/produkte/batterie/bamocar_d3.html for around Eur 3.000,-

If you can`t get it from them directly you could ask German e-cars, they use the same:

http://www.german-e-cars.de/Wechselrichter.49.0.html


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## MPaulHolmes (Feb 23, 2008)

PMSM is easier to control than ACIM because of the ease of finding the rotor flux angle. It's just the same as the rotor angle. I'm 99% done with some FOC software for a PMSM motor, and have some boards on the way. There's a power board (4 ounce copper), low side driver, high side driver, and then 4 layer control board. It's all open source so once it gets posted to the ecomodder wiki you can decide if you want to go that route. It uses 24 TO-247 (or t-max) package igbts, and through-hole film caps. Rated to around 330v DC bus, and maybe 200ampRMS per phase. We'll see though. Assuming a PMSM motor, that works out to 
power = Vrms * Irms * Sqrt(3) * power_factor

Power = 330/sqrt(2) * 200amp * sqrt(3) * 0.95

Power = 77kW

There's really not much to drill, and the parts cost is around $500 or so I think. I"ll have to add it up, but it should be pretty cheap.


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## Peterhase (Mar 26, 2012)

If you check the site of the formular student, you will get some more ideas with the cars infos, http://www.formulastudent.de/uploads/media/FSG_2011_Programme_Magazine_S_01.pdf

i.e. I found an infinion hybrid car kit1, semicron skai, etc... the question is if you can get your hands on them. But again you might contact the respective student team, they can help your further! 

Moreover there is the tritium wavesculptor200: http://www.tritium.com.au/products/TRI74/index.html


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## Peterhase (Mar 26, 2012)

Breaking news!!!

Sevcon now has a sales department to deal with private customers like us, contact is : 
Glyn Martin
Managing Director
Sevcon distributer uk south 
Aviation Equipment Resources Ltd
Office 53 , Airways House
1st Avenue , Stansted Airport , Essex , U.k.


Glyn Martin just told me that they are only picking up business now and start after easter! Just got a quote for the Gen4 size 8 controller = 7.012 Euro! + VAT


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## frodus (Apr 12, 2008)

wow, At that price they can KEEP the controller.


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## Peterhase (Mar 26, 2012)

Just another thing:

I found out, that the 2 controllers I posted before are more or less *identical*!
DMC / The German trader of pg-drives sigma ("sigmadrive") sort of sold the product development of their own pro-range to pg-drives and they will lauch them now as "*Sigma 2*"!


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## Jozzer (Mar 29, 2009)

I was told by Sevcon that the price for the Size8 controller would drop drastically later this year when they were in full production.

It looks to me that the Size6 controller would be a good match for that PMS motor. The size8 would be massive overkill for a 16kw motor..

The Can cable costs £300 direct from the manufacturer (Ixxat) - and someone told me that they are much cheaper in bulk..

Steve


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## Peterhase (Mar 26, 2012)

You might also consider these: http://www.piktronik.com/index.php?...=category&layout=blog&id=13&Itemid=34&lang=en!

They have a CE-mark and their website quotes *perm* as one of their Partner-companies! 
I am about to get a price quote from them...


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## PThompson509 (Jul 9, 2009)

Nice! Please let the rest of us know how this works out - I couldn't find anyone in the US (or anywhere, really) that sells their controllers. 

Cheers, Peter



Peterhase said:


> You might also consider these: http://www.piktronik.com/index.php?...=category&layout=blog&id=13&Itemid=34&lang=en!
> 
> They have a CE-mark and their website quotes *perm* as one of their Partner-companies!
> I am about to get a price quote from them...


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## Peterhase (Mar 26, 2012)

PThompson509 said:


> Nice! Please let the rest of us know how this works out - I couldn't find anyone in the US (or anywhere, really) that sells their controllers.
> 
> Cheers, Peter


I only found a Dutch supplier for Piktronik http://www.idtechnology.nl/?nr=51&P...MS&SAC60_AC-motorcontroller_96-240Volt_140KVA

I sent them an enquiry and they answered they would forward it to Piktronik directly... but no price quote so far!


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## dubelt (Sep 27, 2011)

I have sent message/price request directly to Piktronik.
As soon as I receive replay I will post information for everyone.


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## Peterhase (Mar 26, 2012)

By the way, I found another new supplier/producer from Germany: *Paragon*, they developed a whole system-kit including contoller, DC/DC converter and charger: http://www.paragon.ag/en/wp-content/uploads/paragon-IAA-2011-Messe-News-Elektromobility.pdf (link now corrected)
Paragon is also the producer of the Artega SE electric sportscar, see: http://www.artega.de/artega-se/technik.html  so this seems to be quite professional drivetrain-equipment!


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## dubelt (Sep 27, 2011)

prices are not acceptable...


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## Peterhase (Mar 26, 2012)

Now what I came upto:
obviously all the high-voltage systems *do cost !*

I have following price quotes so far respectively (not yet Piktronik - but I guess they can´t do magic-prices either!): 

Unitek Bamocar D3 for Eur 3.400,-only sold to OEM, from Turn-E (Munich) Eur *4.400,-*
tritium wavesculptor200 for Eur *4.700,-* (AU$ 6.000) NO CE-Mark!
EVE quantum330 for Eur *5.900,-*
Paragon MoDrive40 for ca. Eur *7.000,-*
Sevcon Gen4 size 8 for ca. Eur *7.000,-*
Mes Dea Tim 600 for ca. Eur *7.000,-*
Rinehart PM100DX for Eur *7.200,-* (US$9.500)
Brusa DMC 524 AC Eur *19.200,-* !
all prices excluding taxes & shipping

I haven`t heard of anybody to succeed in getting an Unitek Bamocar D3 yet, except for student race teams though!
All the others fall (more or less) in the same price range, except for the Wavesculptor200 - but TÜV, etc might be complicated and cost intensive (EMV) here, as I know from people who used it!
Better try to get a Bamocar D3, if you can get your hands on it!


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## dubelt (Sep 27, 2011)

There is also Sigmadrive I available for <2k Euro from dmc.de


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## Peterhase (Mar 26, 2012)

dubelt said:


> There is also Sigmadrive I available for <2k Euro from dmc.de


Yes but sigmadrives go only upto 96V (or special 120V upto 144 Volt soon).
The above mentioned controller are all designed to work on *high voltage* above 200Volt (but will also work on lower voltage)!


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## dubelt (Sep 27, 2011)

Sigmadrive - higher voltage than 96V nominal is not/will not be available 

You are right about lower voltage, but 96V x 450A gives about 40kW of available power, so it is not low power controller.


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## Peterhase (Mar 26, 2012)

dubelt said:


> Sigmadrive - higher voltage than 96V nominal is not/will not be available
> 
> You are right about lower voltage, but 96V x 450A gives about 40kW of available power, so it is not low power controller.


No, see: http://www.dmcde.de/pdf/sigma2.pdf 120 & 144 Volt available on request! 
40KW (450 apms) that is PEAK- only for a few seconds, not really helpful for German Autobahn . You have to compare the continous amps (1 hour)- usaually just about half of this: sigmadrive act950l = 240A!


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## dubelt (Sep 27, 2011)

peak power - U R right.

there is another but: normal ev needs ~16kW to maintain speed of 100-120km/h, another 16kW to accelerate to that speed. So concluding this theory, 40kW peak for 15seconds will make ev going 100-120km/h

I do not really know what U have in mind.. on DE autoban I travell with speeds 100-220km/h with diesel ICE.
My vision for EV is that it belongs to city traffic only.

Please change that quote from literature, it is theoretical. Manmy people here could misunderstand its meaning. (erase voltages, it is better to write HI and LO)


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## Peterhase (Mar 26, 2012)

Just got a quote from Piktronik for their controllers:

sac60 is at Eur 3.850,- +Vat (developed to suit perm pms 156w)
sac41 is at Eur 3.750,- +Vat


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