# Re: [EVDL] CALB (Sky Energy) max safe voltage sag under load?



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] CALB (Sky Energy) max safe voltage sag under load?*

First, I this is one of the rare instances when I disagree with Davide'.

Going below 2.5 V won't buy you much energy, and will get
>you that much closer to the point of no return. So, my advice is stick to
>2.5 V. If a LiFePO4 cell OCV is below 2.0 V, the consensus is that it's a
>paper weight.

While this would be true for metal-oxide Li-Ion cells, it is 
completely incorrect for LiFePO4 cells. Indeed, there is not much 
energy below 2.5 volts _open_ circuit_ voltage but you can routinely 
draw the cells below that number under full load and there is plenty 
of energy left. (Maximum power transfer is at 1.7 volts per cell.)

I would _not_ recommend that you routinely draw the cells to 
zero volts, but they do not suffer any immediately noticeable damage 
if you do so. (There could easily be a loss of cycle life, but ???) I 
have accidentally left a 12 volt LiFePO4 pack on a tiny load (glove 
box light) and all the cells in the pack were at zero volts for well 
over a week. I _jump_ started_ the car with no problem. Pack has been 
in my van and working flawlessly ever since. It is been over two years.

I have had ThunderSky LiFePO4 cells arrive at zero volts and 
they seem to be fine after charging them. (At least _most_ of the 
zero volt cells were fine. One was a "dud.")

In the KillaCycle, we draw the A123Systems 26650 cells down 
to about 1.8 volts during peak power draw on every single run down 
the strip. We have never damaged a single cell in a battery pack on the bike.

I should add that you will, indeed, severely damage cells if 
you go below zero volts. (Reverse voltage.) Even "just a little bit". 
Even "just for an instant." That is why you need the BMS to fold back 
power, etc. when any one of the cells gets below 2.5 volts no load 
(open circuit) or below about 1 volt under full load.

Bill Dube'


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] CALB (Sky Energy) max safe voltage sag under load?*

Where you get the damage is not that easily stated. You will shorten
the lifetime of the cells if you go to the extremes. It's a soft area.
This was much much more visible for LiNiMnCoO-cells.

This part needs much deeper scientific understanding how the cell
actually works. I bet there is less than ten people on the earth at
the moment who can tell the effects when asked. We can keep on
guessing all night here without consensus.

In China you can hear people say BMS is not needed anymore. That is
nearly true if you're only afraid of fire. Thou... it can happen too
but it will require really committed hobbyist. 

I've had hundreds of ~0 OCV LFP cells going through my lab. Too many
have gone dummies. I have had cells that were near zero for months..
and they recovered. Not fully, but still.

Bill, You're right. It is not that easy to kill a cell. Nedra members know =

Davide. You're absolutely right too. OCV is more important than the
loaded voltage. Also.. most of the BMS stuff out there are very
limited with their capabilities. I just say they're BMS without the M
in the middle.

Was there a Wiki already regarding babysitting the cells ?

-akkuJukka


2010/3/18 Bill Dube <[email protected]>:
> First, I this is one of the rare instances when I disagree with Davide'.
>
> Going below 2.5 V won't buy you much energy, and will get
>>you that much closer to the point of no return. So, my advice is stick to
>>2.5 V. If a LiFePO4 cell OCV is below 2.0 V, the consensus is that it'=
s a
>>paper weight.
>
> While this would be true for metal-oxide Li-Ion cells, it=
is
> completely incorrect for LiFePO4 cells. Indeed, there is not much
> energy below 2.5 volts _open_ circuit_ voltage but you can routinely
> draw the cells below that number under full load and there is plenty
> of energy left. (Maximum power transfer is at 1.7 volts per cell.)
>
> I would _not_ recommend that you routinely draw the cells=
to
> zero volts, but they do not suffer any immediately noticeable damage
> if you do so. (There could easily be a loss of cycle life, but ???) I
> have accidentally left a 12 volt LiFePO4 pack on a tiny load (glove
> box light) and all the cells in the pack were at zero volts for well
> over a week. I _jump_ started_ the car with no problem. Pack has been
> in my van and working flawlessly ever since. It is been over two years.
>
> I have had ThunderSky LiFePO4 cells arrive at zero volts =
and
> they seem to be fine after charging them. (At least _most_ of the
> zero volt cells were fine. One was a "dud.")
>
> In the KillaCycle, we draw the A123Systems 26650 cells do=
wn
> to about 1.8 volts during peak power draw on every single run down
> the strip. We have never damaged a single cell in a battery pack on the b=
ike.
>
> I should add that you will, indeed, severely damage cells=
if
> you go below zero volts. (Reverse voltage.) Even "just a little bit".
> Even "just for an instant." That is why you need the BMS to fold back
> power, etc. when any one of the cells gets below 2.5 volts no load
> (open circuit) or below about 1 volt under full load.
>
> Bill Dube'
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> General support: http://evdl.org/help/
> Unsubscribe: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
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> Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>
>



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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] CALB (Sky Energy) max safe voltage sag under load?*

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----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] CALB (Sky Energy) max safe voltage sag under load?*



> Elithion wrote:
> > If a BMS knows the cell resistance *at that time*, then it can
> calculate the
> > IR drop, and add it to the terminal voltage, to get the approximate OCV
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] CALB (Sky Energy) max safe voltage sag under load?*

It's because the financial department thought added features at that
phase was enough. You need to have something to sell as upgrades on
next quarter. Only sales and numbers count. Not things that actually
works.

There's nothing hard on measuring the R_int. Problem is that really
few can understand what the heck the BMS is for. Being conservative is
a bad excuse to do things wrong way.

If your BMS can output main current, voltage and temperature per cell
you can get away just by using external data logger. Database approach
has been proven to work. You can calculate a lot of things from the
measured values.

-akkuJukka


2010/3/18 Rick Beebe <[email protected]>:


> > Elithion wrote:
> > > If a BMS knows the cell resistance *at that time*, then it can
> > calculate the
> >> IR drop, and add it to the terminal voltage, to get the approximate OCV
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] CALB (Sky Energy) max safe voltage sag under load?*

>
>: You can go to a lower voltage on load, allowing for internal 
>resistance, if you really know what you're doing and / or the cycle 
>life isn't important to you.

I'm not at all sure if A123Systems 26650 cells are harmed at all by 
time spent at zero volts. Maybe, but I can't tell that there is a 
difference afterward. I have not looked carefully or made cycle life 
tests, but they "seem to work the same after as they did before."

I think that as long as you leave some margin above zero 
volts, you will be OK.

If you are loading the pack to the point where a cell (or 
cells) are below 1.0 volts, then the BMS should probably tell the 
controller to back off a bit. The BMS should most definitely do all 
it is allowed to do to prevent cells from going below zero volts. 
Damage will be quick and perhaps severe.

Bill D. 

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] CALB (Sky Energy) max safe voltage sag under load?*

We have talked about this earlier. We could not see any really good
reason NOT to send LFP cells at 1% SOC in containers. They would be so
much safer to transport. I did try even with shorted cell. Too many
broke completely..  Had to try anyway...

Can you Bill get some A123 cells to our open source test lab in TSAK ?
Exworks at your garage possibly  I can pay the transport.

-akkuJukka



2010/3/18 Bill Dube <[email protected]>:
>
>>
>>: You can go to a lower voltage on load, allowing for internal
>>resistance, if you really know what you're doing and / or the cycle
>>life isn't important to you.
>
> I'm not at all sure if A123Systems 26650 cells are harmed at all by
> time spent at zero volts. Maybe, but I can't tell that there is a
> difference afterward. I have not looked carefully or made cycle life
> tests, but they "seem to work the same after as they did before."
>
> I think that as long as you leave some margin above zero
> volts, you will be OK.
>
> If you are loading the pack to the point where a cell (or
> cells) are below 1.0 volts, then the BMS should probably tell the
> controller to back off a bit. The BMS should most definitely do all
> it is allowed to do to prevent cells from going below zero volts.
> Damage will be quick and perhaps severe.
>
> Bill D.
>
> _______________________________________________
> General support: http://evdl.org/help/
> Unsubscribe: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
> Archive / Forum: http://evdl.org/archive/
> Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>
>



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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] CALB (Sky Energy) max safe voltage sag under load?*

You just gave me an idea.
Right now all the BMS systems look at only the voltage, Since they all
have the same amperage in a series string, maybe we need to feed back
the current rading at that time.
If you have a micro, per every 6 cells then perahaps an isolated back
channel for V/F for the amps is important.

Then we can create a big table that basically has in the middle the SOA
and OCV.
>From that the table goes one way for current and voltage under charge
and the other way for current under load.
Now we can say our current SOC is foo and lookup the min voltage under load.

Now the BMS won't cut back the controller on the drag strip normal run,
but maybe if someting is wrong and still can protect you on the long
drive home.

If the circuit is analog, I could imagine an op-amp driven with the
current freq smoothed on the other end showing up as an offset to alter
the analog comparator, but analog circuit design is not my forte....yet.


> First, I this is one of the rare instances when I disagree with Davide'.
>
> Going below 2.5 V won't buy you much energy, and will get
>> you that much closer to the point of no return. So, my advice is
>> stick to
>> 2.5 V. If a LiFePO4 cell OCV is below 2.0 V, the consensus is that
>> it's a
>> paper weight.
>
> While this would be true for metal-oxide Li-Ion cells, it is
> completely incorrect for LiFePO4 cells. Indeed, there is not much
> energy below 2.5 volts _open_ circuit_ voltage but you can routinely
> draw the cells below that number under full load and there is plenty
> of energy left. (Maximum power transfer is at 1.7 volts per cell.)
>
> I would _not_ recommend that you routinely draw the cells to
> zero volts, but they do not suffer any immediately noticeable damage
> if you do so. (There could easily be a loss of cycle life, but ???) I
> have accidentally left a 12 volt LiFePO4 pack on a tiny load (glove
> box light) and all the cells in the pack were at zero volts for well
> over a week. I _jump_ started_ the car with no problem. Pack has been
> in my van and working flawlessly ever since. It is been over two years.
>
> I have had ThunderSky LiFePO4 cells arrive at zero volts and
> they seem to be fine after charging them. (At least _most_ of the zero
> volt cells were fine. One was a "dud.")
>
> In the KillaCycle, we draw the A123Systems 26650 cells down to
> about 1.8 volts during peak power draw on every single run down the
> strip. We have never damaged a single cell in a battery pack on the bike.
>
> I should add that you will, indeed, severely damage cells if
> you go below zero volts. (Reverse voltage.) Even "just a little bit".
> Even "just for an instant." That is why you need the BMS to fold back
> power, etc. when any one of the cells gets below 2.5 volts no load
> (open circuit) or below about 1 volt under full load.
>
> Bill Dube'

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] CALB (Sky Energy) max safe voltage sag under load?*

I have made the statement before and it is repeated here
that you can protect cells and still allow max power transfer
by adjusting the *voltage* cutoff point with the drop across
the internal resistance of the cell.
By definition, the max power transfer to the load (motor)
happens when the voltage sags to half the open voltage.
So a healthy 3.6V cell being drawn down instantly to 1.8V
is delivering maximum power as long as it is dropping that
other 1.8V over its internal resistance.
If its open voltage starts to fall, you will need to start
cutting back to a different voltage, initially lower but
eventually a *higher* cutoff when the current drops enough
that the calculation (or measurement) of the open voltage
approaches 2.5V.

I have made the same comment over 12V lead batteries (13V open
voltage) being drawn down to around 7V under high current.
Many people with golf cart floodeds will find that it they
set their undervoltage limit too conservatively at 1.75V per cell
that they will see a fresh pack already start cutting out on
hard launches, because the battery is not allowed to deliver
much power and drop over its (high) internal resistance.

NOTE that the allowed sag must be *current* dependent, so that
at zero current the 12V lead battery is never allowed to go
under 10.5V but a hard launch at 500A will allow a battery
with 10mOhm resistance to drop to 7 or 8V.

This whole thing is put in a graphical picture in the
Brueggeman meter....

Cor van de Water
Director HW & Systems Architecture Group
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
Email: [email protected] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [email protected]
Tel: +1 408 383 7626 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Tel: +91 (040)23117400 x203 XoIP: +31877841130

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On
Behalf Of Jeff Shanab
Sent: Friday, March 19, 2010 3:51 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [EVDL] CALB (Sky Energy) max safe voltage sag under load?

You just gave me an idea.
Right now all the BMS systems look at only the voltage, Since they all
have the same amperage in a series string, maybe we need to feed back
the current rading at that time.
If you have a micro, per every 6 cells then perahaps an isolated back
channel for V/F for the amps is important.

Then we can create a big table that basically has in the middle the SOA
and OCV.
>From that the table goes one way for current and voltage under charge
and the other way for current under load.
Now we can say our current SOC is foo and lookup the min voltage under
load.

Now the BMS won't cut back the controller on the drag strip normal run,
but maybe if someting is wrong and still can protect you on the long
drive home.

If the circuit is analog, I could imagine an op-amp driven with the
current freq smoothed on the other end showing up as an offset to alter
the analog comparator, but analog circuit design is not my forte....yet.


> First, I this is one of the rare instances when I disagree with
Davide'.
>
> Going below 2.5 V won't buy you much energy, and will get
>> you that much closer to the point of no return. So, my advice is 
>> stick to
>> 2.5 V. If a LiFePO4 cell OCV is below 2.0 V, the consensus is that 
>> it's a paper weight.
>
> While this would be true for metal-oxide Li-Ion cells, it is 
> completely incorrect for LiFePO4 cells. Indeed, there is not much 
> energy below 2.5 volts _open_ circuit_ voltage but you can routinely 
> draw the cells below that number under full load and there is plenty 
> of energy left. (Maximum power transfer is at 1.7 volts per cell.)
>
> I would _not_ recommend that you routinely draw the cells to 
> zero volts, but they do not suffer any immediately noticeable damage 
> if you do so. (There could easily be a loss of cycle life, but ???) I 
> have accidentally left a 12 volt LiFePO4 pack on a tiny load (glove 
> box light) and all the cells in the pack were at zero volts for well 
> over a week. I _jump_ started_ the car with no problem. Pack has been 
> in my van and working flawlessly ever since. It is been over two
years.
>
> I have had ThunderSky LiFePO4 cells arrive at zero volts and 
> they seem to be fine after charging them. (At least _most_ of the zero

> volt cells were fine. One was a "dud.")
>
> In the KillaCycle, we draw the A123Systems 26650 cells down to

> about 1.8 volts during peak power draw on every single run down the 
> strip. We have never damaged a single cell in a battery pack on the
bike.
>
> I should add that you will, indeed, severely damage cells if 
> you go below zero volts. (Reverse voltage.) Even "just a little bit".
> Even "just for an instant." That is why you need the BMS to fold back 
> power, etc. when any one of the cells gets below 2.5 volts no load 
> (open circuit) or below about 1 volt under full load.
>
> Bill Dube'

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] CALB (Sky Energy) max safe voltage sag under load?*



> Jeff Shanab wrote:
> 
> > Right now all the BMS systems look at only the voltage
> 
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] CALB (Sky Energy) max safe voltage sag under load?*



> Bill Dube wrote:
> >
> > First, I this is one of the rare instances when I disagree with Davide'.
> >
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] CALB (Sky Energy) max safe voltage sag under load?*

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