# Lithium Cobalt oxide



## madderscience (Jun 28, 2008)

interesting, they claim to be a US manufacturer of prismatic lithium. Anybody found a price list?

Lithium cobalt oxide is a bit higher energy density that lithium iron phosphate, but the cobalt batteries have the thermal runaway problem ala old laptop batteries. Therefore it is probably safer (especially in a conversion where battery conditions may not be as well managed) to stay with the lithium iron phosphate batteries.


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## Technologic (Jul 20, 2008)

Cobalt prices have regained a lot of their strength back up to about $18/lb. 

Figure that into your calculations (say you had a 6kg battery, it would likely have at least 6 lbs of cobalt in it, likely more like 10-12 lbs)
a 6kg battery is something like 600wh max?

You decide.


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

Jason Lattimer said:


> Hey guys,
> 
> http://www.internationalbatteryinc.com/
> 
> Found some lithium at International Battery. They list lithium iron phosphate and lithium cobalt oxide. I know about the former but have never heard of the latter.


The short answer is that lithium cobalt oxide is the original lithium ion chemistry and still most widely used in portable tech and communication devices.

Lithium iron phosphate is more stable and longer lived, but has less storage capacity. More commonly used for EVs.

EDIT: This company is an american branch of thundersky from china. I recognize the battery and the image of the thundersky electric bus. Could be worth inquiring for pricing since its located on american soil and potentially makes it a less costly and safer purchase.


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## dimitri (May 16, 2008)

This company is not interested in our money, they do not wish to deal with individuals, only large OEM orders I guess 

I wish I could smack the CEO in the face with my $10K before I sent it to China.....greedy bastards


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## Voltswagen (Nov 13, 2008)

I also contacted them a couple of months ago as they have a facility in Oakland, New Jersey not far from me. They said they won't sell to individuals only OEM. They said it's a liability issue.


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

Unbelievable. When are factories like this going to start taking us seriously......

Well thanks for trying guys, at least now we know.


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## Technologic (Jul 20, 2008)

david85 said:


> Unbelievable. When are factories like this going to start taking us seriously......


lol well legal liability sold here vs sold in china is definitely different.

I don't think it's a terribly bad business model for them.


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

Technologic said:


> lol well legal liability sold here vs sold in china is definitely different.
> 
> I don't think it's a terribly bad business model for them.


True, but it would still be nice if I at least had the option to spend money within my own borders for these products, I would be happy to settle for a reduced warranty if it meant I could get my hands on electrovaya's battery (400wh/kg). Legal liability is often an excuse for holding many good ideas back.

I will get my hands on lithium batteries one way or another even if domestic companies try to stand in my way. If they don't want my money, I guess thats their loss.


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## Technologic (Jul 20, 2008)

david85 said:


> True, but it would still be nice if I at least had the option to spend money within my own borders for these products, I would be happy to settle for a reduced warranty if it meant I could get my hands on electrovaya's battery (400wh/kg). Legal liability is often an excuse for holding many good ideas back.


Warranty or not they'd still be liable for their claims, any hazards, and product standards legally if made in the USA. 
You can blame legislature for that, and Holmes. 



> I will get my hands on lithium batteries one way or another even if domestic companies try to stand in my way. If they don't want my money, I guess thats their loss.


It is their loss, but they are hoping to do a larger supply volume to make up for it. Naturally with the heavy regulations, non-precise laws, and overly inflated lawyer/politics system you can't expect much else.

Granted I say this, while in law school.

Though I think they should be able to back up their claims of 2000+ cycles with real world data from end users, it's possible that they are simply stopping all direct lawsuits against them if a user abuses said cycle life/or they lied about it. Which again, is smart on their part, simply because the level of direct domestic competition will always be non-existant here.


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

Technologic said:


> Though I think they should be able to back up their claims of 2000+ cycles with real world data from end users, it's possible that they are simply stopping all direct lawsuits against them if a user abuses said cycle life/or they lied about it. Which again, is smart on their part, simply because the level of direct domestic competition will always be non-existant here.


I almost wonder if a way to put pressure on the screwed up system is to try and increace chinese battery supply here in north america. Of course calls for protectionism would likely get louder as result.


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## Technologic (Jul 20, 2008)

david85 said:


> I almost wonder if a way to put pressure on the screwed up system is to try and increace chinese battery supply here in north america. Of course calls for protectionism would likely get louder as result.


You'd think that exportation from china would increase our protectiveness of the economy, but that doesn't seem to be the case

The cries come from job loss, not end consumerism or a stop to inflation/inflationary spending.

People embrace the lower prices at the same time that they claim to hate importations, without adjusting their mindset to the root cause, the government's inflationary growth through taxation/subsidization.


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

OK, so as a student of law, would you know any way that a potential customer base and the private battery producer (and maybe even government) could get around the liability problems? Could a signed waver do it?

I can see how this could be a problem for EVs for years to come.


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## Technologic (Jul 20, 2008)

david85 said:


> OK, so as a student of law, would you know any way that a potential customer base and the private battery producer (and maybe even government) could get around the liability problems? Could a signed waver do it?


Well sure as far as meeting specs a signed waiver expliciting saying at the time of purchase "cycle life may not meet specifications" probably could hold up in the US.

The truth about the legal system is this, in general no one will get outsted or in trouble that is part of the system. So in the case of a government made battery company, they'd likely make such terrible batteries and sell them at a huge price, and be free from any legal backlash.

I remember talking to a professor who attempted to help is friend sue the county he was arrested in, because the police violently arrested him with a DWI, after he blew a 0.00. The cop, on his subpeona date, never appeared. The judge refused to issue a warrant for his arrest, and instead dropped the case during summary because the cop refused to show up.

This business, has a hold on any OEM domestic orders probably in price (probably shipping quite a bit directly from their chinese factory) as far as competition is concerned they simply don't have it. So in reality they probably can just sit on OEM orders and limit their entire company's domestic liability.


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

You figure the cycle life is really the sticking point? I thought the possibility of me blowing up the battery and causing a 4 alarm fire was the main concern.

In the case of electrovaya, the're not really doing all that well with their OEM contracts. Phoenix motor cars is in bankruptcy, and I doubt Malcom Bricklin's recent adventure will amount to anything either. A contract was recently signed with tata in india, buth who knows what will happen there.

Things are not looking very good for a123 systems either. I'm not convinced that these battery companies can afford to sit and wait much longer with oil prices trying to stabilize around the $45/barrel mark.


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## Technologic (Jul 20, 2008)

david85 said:


> You figure the cycle life is really the sticking point? I thought the possibility of me blowing up the battery and causing a 4 alarm fire was the main concern.


Well the 4 alarm fire thing is not for LiFePO usually. Cycle life would be one liability they would have to guarantee, or get close to to avoid class action.

Namely though with these a fire hazard can NOT be waived liability wise. No forms etc can waive the legal responsiblity of a fire hazard... so they'd either have to force users to use certain set ups with BMS chargers, motors etc (which TS does not make/own,so they'd have to) or simply include an amazingly detailed guide to use them.

Knowledge their engineers probably don't even have.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

I actually emailed international battery as well a few weeks ago but I didn't get a complete blow off. They said they were currently working on new pricing and would be able to give me prices sometime next month, (Feb). However a few days later I emailed them and asked for clarification on their specs and never heard back from them. Though they manufacture under license from T-Sky they seem to show different specs. Thundersky lists continuous at 3C and max at 5C, but IBatt lists continuous discharge at C/2, which I take to mean 1/2 C rate, and max is listed at 3C.
http://www.internationalbatteryinc....&level3=&model=IB-B-FHE-160&pages=2&current=1


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## Voltswagen (Nov 13, 2008)

Here is a crazy idea.........why don't we build our own Lithium Batteries using US Govt dollars?
I don't have the expertise myself but I'm sure we could hire engineers who do and fund the operation thru one of the many Alternative Energy Grants. President Obama is dangling these dollars to any takers.

As for liability..... does TS need to protect themselves when a consumer here in North America buys directly from them in China? 
My speciality is Finance and if an American Consumer buys a foreign bank certificate of deposit and that bank bellies up or refuses to return the money......you are on your own. The Marines are not going to go in and get your money back.
I would imagine that the same holds true for a consumer who is injured by
a defective TS Battery Pack which was purchased directly from them in China. So where is their liability? International Battery is a US Corp.....as such they do have liability and we have recourse through our court system to collect damages. I don't think TS has that liability.
Just my .02


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## Harold in CR (Sep 8, 2008)

Just so y'all know, I am currently in Florida. I came here, to see if I could find someone that would be interested in manufacturing the LiFePo, batteries in Costa Rica. 
Doesn't seem to me to be all that big of a deal. We have low labor costs, and factories are nothing more than corrugated sheet metal buildings, unless you are a NORTH AMERICAN Company, with a multi-million $$ showplace, like Intel. 

I'm trying to contact prospects right now.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

I don't know if I buy into the liability thing anyway. There are many more companies in this country that sell much more dangerous products than a LiFePo4 battery. I guarantee more people die every year in automobiles than from a lithium battery, and that doesn't stop companies from selling autos.


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## Technologic (Jul 20, 2008)

Voltswagen said:


> Here is a crazy idea.........why don't we build our own Lithium Batteries using US Govt dollars?
> I don't have the expertise myself but I'm sure we could hire engineers who do and fund the operation thru one of the many Alternative Energy Grants. President Obama is dangling these dollars to any takers.


Can you give me a single example the federal government hasn't harmed something the second they try to subsidize it?
Namely this sounds like a horrible horrible plan that would be the death of ALL battery innovation... yeah sure... have fun with that love fest for FDR's fiscal policies



> As for liability..... does TS need to protect themselves when a consumer here in North America buys directly from them in China?
> My speciality is Finance and if an American Consumer buys a foreign bank certificate of deposit and that bank bellies up or refuses to return the money......you are on your own. The Marines are not going to go in and get your money back.
> I would imagine that the same holds true for a consumer who is injured by
> a defective TS Battery Pack which was purchased directly from them in China. So where is their liability? International Battery is a US Corp.....as such they do have liability and we have recourse through our court system to collect damages. I don't think TS has that liability.
> Just my .02


No they don't have to protect themselves from consumer error if they buy from china, they could face false advertising charges if you filed in chinese court though. 

TS = international battery co... so the rest of this statement is moot.


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## Technologic (Jul 20, 2008)

Harold in CR said:


> Doesn't seem to me to be all that big of a deal. We have low labor costs, and factories are nothing more than corrugated sheet metal buildings, unless you are a NORTH AMERICAN Company, with a multi-million $$ showplace, like Intel.
> 
> I'm trying to contact prospects right now.


You obviously have no idea how cheap a 50-60k sq ft factory is in china.

Last time I checked (about 1.5 years ago) a brand new, 60k sq ft, prime location production facility in Guangdong was about $100k USD + equipment.

You couldn't even get a 1000 sq ft building in the USA for that price.

Let alone labor, machinery... last I checked a automated coil winding machine was $10k new in china (vs about 90k here).

Labor averages roughly $190/mth... Raw steel prices last I saw were $0.30/lb FOB, aluminum was 0.65/lb FOB

Need I go on?

No business taxes, property leases are done on a 50 yr basis with minimal annual taxes (nothing like the 50-60k/yr shelled out to the government here)... business taxes are about 2% in china  (versus I think 39% here)

In china $190/mth buys them a nice apartment and modern appliances etc, that's roughly 1/10th the minimum wage paid here for factory work. Inflation sucks huh? 

lol and clearly the only answer to inflation is higher taxes, large national debt, and government subsidies hahahahaha


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

I think he's talking about building in Costa Rica where cost are presumably lower. Lets try to avoid politics and save that for Chit Chat shall we?


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## Harold in CR (Sep 8, 2008)

Yes, I'm talking about a factory in Costa Rica.


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## Technologic (Jul 20, 2008)

Harold in CR said:


> Yes, I'm talking about a factory in Costa Rica.


 
Well it's possible for sure, since a lot of factories are being built in brazil/chile because the labor is so cheap.

Cheers


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

I think costa rica is also a tax haven, some one correct me if I'm wrong.


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