# 1995 Neon Conversion



## Vanquizor (Nov 17, 2009)

Well it looks like I have just enough space in the garage, and the majority of the parts in my possession so its time to start actually doing this conversion. Hopefully I can drag this forum along the journey and maybe get a bit of help along the way.

The game plan is to convert a '95 neon that I've been using as a test mule for our racing program and abuse it as a daily driver/ autocross and general motor sports toy. Since I have been building and racing neons for almost 15 years now that choice was easy... I have a huge supply of spares. My commute is simple- 7km each way and plug in parking at both ends... worst case of 15km one way if I have to swing by my folks place on the way, so week-end activities will be the bigger challenge in my case.

As for the budget- well I spent that but I can squeeze a little out of my race car fund for anything that is critical. Otherwise the plan is to only invest what this thing has actually saved me versus driving the family minivan in future upgrades.

I currently have the following:

Impulse 9
Logisystems 120-144V 750A controller
500 amp fuse
EV200 relay
Used CanEV Adapter/Hub
50ft 3/0 cable
a couple 0-84V power supplies
a Dozen group 27 batteries
Cycle Analyst High Voltage/Current.

It seems to me there is a drivetrain in that parts pile somewhere.

As for my skills I'm pretty handy in the garage- I've fabbed things like trailers and general race car stuff. I'm on the ball enough to know between the hub adapter and my motor its going to put the clutch ~7mm too far into the bell housing and have planned a combination of milling the adapter and shimming the bell housing to compensate.

On the electrical side I'm just O.K. . I've played with e-bikes for a while and have enough skill to hot rod them and troubleshoot what the broken bits are, but I'm not the right guy to say what caused the controller to fry or how much you'll shorten your battery's life hitting them at 200A vs 100A.


I guess that's about it for now- I'll leave you all with a couple questions-

1)Any specific suggestions to try and make the controller survive (its my understanding the logissytem is dodgy at best)?

2)Anyone have a simple power wiring diagram? Specificly the appropriate placement of relay, fuse and controller connections- accessories are easy enough for me to cover on my own.

3)Anything I have overlooked so far?

Thanks in advance!


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## timk225 (Sep 19, 2014)

I'm new here too, and am thinking of a similar Neon conversion. From what I have read, I would say to aim for the high end of the voltage range for best top speed, and the lead-acid batteries are never the best for maximum range,although it sounds like you don't need to go 100 miles between charges.


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## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

Sounds like a fun ride. I too will point out that lead is dead and lithium is the way to go, but I do see where your commute is not far. There is a lot more to having a lithium pack than just range though. The weight of lead batteries will make your car accelerate and handle like something from the lead age, and you will always be somewhat limited on where you can go with it. make sure to check weight limits on bridges that you go over...

That is pretty cool that you have been a neon guy for awhile and know everything about them. It should make your conversion a little easier to do. Best of luck on your build, can't wait to see the pics and progress.


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## Vanquizor (Nov 17, 2009)

OK so some pics... maybe boring stuff so let me know if I should cut it out.


Adapter on.



Plus a hub.



Measuring mounting depth- still a little proud so I'll fix that with a shim between the adapter and bellhousing.

 

With clutch.



In we go...



Mount for the back.



One for the front.



Support for the passenger side.



Somewhere to mount the controller..



That ought to get the job done.


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## Vanquizor (Nov 17, 2009)

Of course at this point I couldn't resist spinning it up....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FNu0JsesyUQ


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## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

Fast progress! Test drive tomorrow?


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## Vanquizor (Nov 17, 2009)

evmetro said:


> Fast progress! Test drive tomorrow?


Possibly a bit optimistic- it all has to come back apart to be fully welded, and based on my fabrication of the first cable to test the motor building the 20 or so heavy cables that I will need is going to kill a bunch of time. Maybe test drive this week-end would be a better goal.


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## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

Well make sure you post when you take it for a test drive. We love to hear about that first EV grin in a DIY EV. The DIY spirit is slowly being crushed, and fewer people appreciate what it means to build your own. I love to see a guy dive in like you are doing. I am sure that you will make mistakes along the way, but I am also pretty sure you will learn valuable stuff as well.


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## favguy (May 2, 2008)

Hi Vanquizor,

Welcome to the forum  You can never post enough pictures so keep them coming! Nice to see fast progress. 

I hope evmetro is wrong about the DIY builders diminishing, but as more manufacturers slowly bring out EV's, I suppose it's inevitable. Here in the UK, there are almost no EV builders at all anyway, (maybe a dozen or so..)so it's hard to tell if interest is changing! 

Just a little constructive criticism for you, you might want to rethink the motor mounts if the ones shown are what you are actually planning to use and not just a template for something heavier, the high torque of the motor will probably bend and/or tear up that light angle in short order...


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## steelneck (Apr 19, 2013)

favguy said:


> I hope evmetro is wrong about the DIY builders diminishing, but as more manufacturers slowly bring out EV's, I suppose it's inevitable. Here in the UK, there are almost no EV builders at all anyway, (maybe a dozen or so..)so it's hard to tell if interest is changing! .


I think the ones who are doing EV-conversions because they want an electric car will be fewer, but at the same time there will be a growing interest among custom car builders and people bordering to Hot Roders. I think it is just a matter of time until we start to see custom EV parts at dealers like Summit racing and different auto racing dealers.


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## Vanquizor (Nov 17, 2009)

favguy said:


> Hi Vanquizor,
> 
> Just a little constructive criticism for you, you might want to rethink the motor mounts if the ones shown are what you are actually planning to use and not just a template for something heavier, the high torque of the motor will probably bend and/or tear up that light angle in short order...


I considered the torque involved and I am not really concerned about the light angle on the motor face- there is not a lot of leverage involved there, and the front and rear mounts should be primarily taking the torque loads not the end mounts. I am however concerned about the integrity of the vertical support and the bridge above it as there is considerable leverage there, I'm depending on the top mounting plate and carefully placed gussets to calm my concerns. 


That being said I snuck in a bit of garage time before work and started on battery cables:



Cut and strip



Slide on plumbing fitting



Hammer time



Solder it up



Pilot with the small bit



Finish with the big one.



8 done- thats a start on the rear battery box.


Plan for the rest of the day is while I'm waiting for my various reports to run is to figure out my wiring layout, and also how to convert NEDRA's flat plate strap requirement to box section battery hold downs.

I'm very comfortable that 1x1 box is sufficient to retain the mass as we use it for chassis members on formula cars, but at the end of the day I need to convince sanctioning bodies my car is safe to race and that is easier to do by indicating how much I exceed another sanctioning bodies spec by.

If anyone has insight for the wiring diagram or hold down specs now would be a great time...


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## Vanquizor (Nov 17, 2009)

Critical power wiring for comment:



Hopefully my abbreviations are obvious, but if not:

MK= Master kill, main 12V battery disconnect for a race car- when switched on it will start precharge and connect the chassis battery.
Key= Key Switch, in this case the Run connection
P=Precharge relay (although I'm not sure what resistor to tie in here)
R=Realy, although I guess main contactor is the correct term
F=Fuse sized 400v 500a
OS= Oh S**T connector- a large mechanical disconnect (I'm thinking anderson SB350 although it is underrated for the peak I will pull) activated by a pull lever in the car or a push handle which can be threaded in the rear of the car at the track
TPS= Throttle Position Sensor I'm planning on using the stock Neon Throttle body and TPS as pins 1&2 provide linear increasing resistance from 60 ohms to a little over 5k ohms as the throttle is depressed.

As for Battery, Cont, and Mot well you can probably guess.

As always input would be greatly appreciated!


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## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

favguy said:


> Hi Vanquizor,
> 
> I hope evmetro is wrong about the DIY builders diminishing, but as more manufacturers slowly bring out EV's, I suppose it's inevitable. Here in the UK, there are almost no EV builders at all anyway, (maybe a dozen or so..)so it's hard to tell if interest is changing!


I hope I am wrong as well. I may have been a little pessimistic when I said that. I keep seeing the new vs conversion debate come up and sometimes it feels like those guys are selling out on us. When I look at it more objectively, it does make sense that most people don't have any reason or desire to do their own conversion, and just want to get off the pump. The new EVs are just simply separating those of us who are passionate about building our own and those who were building their own because that was the only way to go electric. The guy who is doing the conversion in this thread got me pretty excited because he seems really motivated and excited about doing this, and doing it now. That, and true DIY spirit!


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## timk225 (Sep 19, 2014)

My interest in converting a car to electric power is not to save the environment, I couldn't care less about that at all. I am all about saving MONEY. Saving money also drives the restrictions on my build. $2000 for a controller? Gonna have to go with a used one on that! $1700 for a Warp 9? Gonna have to find a forklift and rebuild its motor! Taking apart hundreds of laptop batteries and testing 4000 cells? Well, it if saves money...... Spending money = bad. Saving money = good!

And I'm just the type of person that would get such great satisfaction from not paying the 40-70 cents of TAX to the state and federal government on every gallon of gas! 

However, buying a new factory built EV for $30,000 plus would defeat the purpose. I'd have to drive a new EV for years before the money from gasoline savings would make it a financially wise decision. 

I am looking at buying a used Challenger R/T next year for a fun car, but saving gas money in a daily EV beater would be nice.


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## Vanquizor (Nov 17, 2009)

I'm 100% with you on the saving money side... I'm planning to be into this build for under $3k on the road, and its looking good so far.


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## timk225 (Sep 19, 2014)

What do you plan to do for the steering? I know we can take the power steering pump out and just loop the lines to each other, but that's not ideal for the amount of steering effort needed. And from what I read, manual steering Neon racks are very hard to find, then you need the coupler to connect the steering shaft to it.

If the motor I end up using has output shafts on both ends, I suppose a bracket and pulley could be rigged up to drive the power steering pump (at a low gear ratio to minimize its power draw), but that seems pointless, as unlike a gas engine, the motor wouldn't be turning fast in a parking lot, thus negating its usefulness.

Maybe a small seperate motor to drive the power steering pump?

Any idea which years of Neons had cable driven speedometers? I used to know, I need to go look it up again.


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## Vanquizor (Nov 17, 2009)

Neons never had cable driven speedos, however the speed distance sensor is located in the tranny so if you keep the chassis wiring like I did it will still function.

I haven't driven a neon with power steering for the last 7 or so years, it sucks power and has weight... neither are a good thing. There are several different steering racks you can use depending on the ratio you are after (consider tires and alignment as they have the biggest effect on steering effort), common ones are the rack from a shadow at 14:1 , rack from and ACR or RT model at 16:1 (our track cars on sticky tires get this one), rack from a base/highline at 18:1 (this is a good compromise for a street car), Base dodge omni 20:1 and 4 lug neon at 22:1 (if you are really weak or build a tank). Just get the coupler that matches the rack. Note the last 2 do not have the option of being powered- they are pure manual racks.

If you can't find any of the above steering racks you need to learn to use car-part.com.


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## timk225 (Sep 19, 2014)

Thanks for the answers. I have been into Mopars for many many years and have had a couple '89 Turbo Spirits, an Omni, a Shelby Charger, a '93 Shadow V6 (I swapped it from auto to 5 speed and remember its speedometer wiring problems), a '97 Neon and my current '05 Neon SXT, and the only one with manual steering was the Omni. I remember having to spin the wheel like crazy for some steering, but that would be better than trying to torque a looped P/S rack all the time. For some reason, I have always been paranoid that using a power steering rack in a non-powered application could snap the steering shaft off, as the manual racks are built with thicker shafts for a reason, I think.

If you come across an Omni rack or 4 lug Neon manual rack that will swap into a 1st gen Neon, and has the steering shaft connector, let me know.

What area of the country are you in, if I may ask? I'm in Los Angeles now but I am moving back to Pittsburgh soon, and the Neon EV conversion will take place there if I acquire enough parts over the winter.


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## Vanquizor (Nov 17, 2009)

I'm in Canada but like I said: car-parts.com if you are serious and you can have one at your door by early next week. Call


C. Hughes Auto Wrecking and Towing  559-924-9521

They are based in California and have one on the shelf. Going rate seems to be $50-$75.


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## Vanquizor (Nov 17, 2009)

OK since I'm likely to have some garage time tonight to make some further progress it would be a GREAT time to post any concerns about my proposed wiring. 

I'm thinking I botched this up as I was going to wire the 12v chassis battery to the KSI input, when further research indicates that I need pack voltage, so I'll be adding a relay and a couple wires there.

Still looking for input on what resistance to use for the precharge relay with a logisystems 144v 750A controller.

Also looking for input on using box section to meet NEDRA's battery strap requirement.

Lastly any comment on using the Anderson SB350 as my emergency disconnect?

-Noel-


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## Vanquizor (Nov 17, 2009)

Well given the overwhelming number of responses I just made it up as I went last night. I rotated the batteries so I could mount them 2 to a strap and decided to use flat strap that matches neatly to NEDRA's tables. Also went ahead and got a 470ohm 25W resistor for pre-charge. Finally I got 3/4 of the controller mounting done- just need to goop it up with thermal paste and buy a couple lock nuts on the way home.


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## Vanquizor (Nov 17, 2009)

Just about got to the test drive yesterday- ended up a couple lugs short and a bit of wiring to go.

 

T-body mounted and wired- heavy cable run back to front through exhaust tunnel



Rack for the last 2 batteries built



Rear fuse in place


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## Vanquizor (Nov 17, 2009)

http://youtu.be/fu_CQDsYGxQ

Yep it worked... first drive was great. Third time round the block not so much...

http://youtu.be/tGOKLOZwwUM


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## Vanquizor (Nov 17, 2009)

So a few pics I didn't upload earlier- 



The cycle analyst mounted on the dash



Wiring layout (note always on pre-charge for the test runs)



And the unfortunate end.

Sad thing is all I got to do was 2 1/2 trips around the block. Nothing was showing signs of getting warm let alone broken kinds of hot. The first 2 drives were fun so I loaded up my grandfather for a ride, you can here him in the 2nd video above. The failure occurred the first time I rolled on the throttle- or more accurately as I lifted off the throttle after rolling onto it. Cycle Analyst showed I drew 15kW, as I rolled off throttle it drifted down to 8kW, hiccuped then blasted off... I hammered on the brake- power draw went up to ~40kW then I hit the key- the ev200 did its thing and the excitement was over. I lifted off the brake and let it roll towards my alley with smoke pouring out from under the hood.


So where does the project go from here? I could hammer my Visa for a new Soliton or Zilla... thats likely where I will end up anyhow in the long term. What kind of chances am I taking buying one of these used?
How about the DIY controller- is the 1000A version tested yet?

Lastly since I seem to be mostly talking to myself here should I just quit spamming the internet and do my own thing?


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## TheSGC (Nov 15, 2007)

I have a Zilla Z1K-LV and love the thing. It's pricey, but after using a way under powered Kelly Controller I couldn't go back. I haven't seen a used Zilla go for less than $1400.

However, I have built and tested the P&S Open Source 500A controller and it worked great. It's $600, but you need to have the soldering skills to put it together. I built it in a day for another EV converter, but I tested it for a week in my own EV.


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## Vanquizor (Nov 17, 2009)

I love the price tag of the open source controller- it is affordable enough I could use it as an interim solution. Long term I'm working on lithium- possibly leaf or volt in origin, although I was recently quoted a fair price on a lightly used 320v nominal pack... either way that points me to the EHV Zilla.

As for soldering- not sure its my strong suit, but I have assembled a couple megasquirt systems without any drama. Would the P&S controller be more, less or about the same level of skill required?


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## TheSGC (Nov 15, 2007)

Vanquizor said:


> I love the price tag of the open source controller- it is affordable enough I could use it as an interim solution. Long term I'm working on lithium- possibly leaf or volt in origin, although I was recently quoted a fair price on a lightly used 320v nominal pack... either way that points me to the EHV Zilla.
> 
> As for soldering- not sure its my strong suit, but I have assembled a couple megasquirt systems without any drama. Would the P&S controller be more, less or about the same level of skill required?


It's somewhat more complicated as you need to be able to read the schematics and identify all the components as you solder them. You also need some good soldering irons.


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## timk225 (Sep 19, 2014)

You're not talking to yourself, I am reading and learning. Wiring up the pre charge thing, the battery management system, the charger, etc, all things I have to learn yet.

One of your turn signal lights on the right side has a blown bulb, the turn signal shouldn't be clicking that fast. Why isn't the speedometer working?

What type of controller was that that blew? And was it one component or many things in it? What were your programmed settings in it for max volts and amps and other things?


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

TheSGC said:


> It's somewhat more complicated as you need to be able to read the schematics and identify all the components as you solder them. You also need some good soldering irons.


Hi
I made one - made a few mistakes and had to do some re-work,
But it was almost the first electronics I had done
It's a great kit!
Everything is labelled and the instructions are clear

You do need at least two soldering irons - I used three
15 watt - the electronics
40 watt - some of the bigger bits 
200 watts - power bits

Paul is working on the 1000amp version
I have one of the Beta test units - I'm putting it in my car now


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## Vanquizor (Nov 17, 2009)

I'm extremely jealous of your test controller Duncan. I do have a smaller soldering iron I used to build MS, and my butane powered one I use at the track. The Butane one has got enough poop to do #4 battery cables so I imagine its fine- no idea what the wattage equivalent would be.

As for the chassis issues- yep the car has lots. Speedo needed the speed distance sensor plugged in, the signal light issue is actually the missing ground on the right side. The headliner is also sagging super bad and it needs some body work- of course none of this affected its use as a proof of concept which was the whole point. I guess I'm a function first form later kind of guy. 

That being said I guess I have some time to work on the little stuff since I'll be waiting a bit on controller regardless of what path I choose.

When it blew I had it set in the "factory default" positions, which is pretty tame according to the documentation I received with the controller (which wasn't much). Peak current was 501 amps according to cycle analyst, but I'm sure that was after it blew not before.


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## z_power (Dec 17, 2011)

If you built working MegaSquirt then you're up to the task of assembling OpenRevolt - that is said from experience


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## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

Keep an eye on extra din post and the classifieds here. Maybe you can find a deal on a used one.


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## Vanquizor (Nov 17, 2009)

So i happened onto a Curtis controller that was cheap enough I'll get my money out of it when I upgrade- with luck it will be here next week.

Since I'm waiting for parts its a good time to pick things off the wish list... like fixing the saggy headliner!



yep thats saggy.



weapon of choice



ok so i probably should have ponied up for some new material...



but at least it shouldn't be impacting visibility any more!


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## Vanquizor (Nov 17, 2009)

Some method of charging was another one of those wish list items- my solution was a couple of e-bay power supplies:



Unfortunately I think their spec was greatly exaggerated... I should have been charging at ~6A



426w from the wall according to my budget watt meter



3.2A from my super cheap and slightly optimistic multimeter



2.6 amps or ~400 watts according to the cycle analyst.

Any way you slice it I'm only getting about 1/2 the output I was counting on, so its going to be slow going charging with this setup. Looks like I either need to tweak these up or look to a better solution.


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

Hi Vanquizor

Re - Charger
I built a bad boy,

We are on 230v here so I used a big yellow transformer to drop it to 110v
A bridge rectifier ($10?) some capacitors I had lying around

That charged my 144v pack at 10 amps

Then I got a JLD 404
http://store.evtv.me/proddetail.php?prod=JLD404AH
Same thing but cheaper
http://www.lightobject.com/Programmable-Digital-DC-Power-Watt-Meter-red-LED-w-control-P237.aspx

which I use to switch off when I reach the correct voltage

If you are on 110v mains - miss out the transformer but you may need an old heating element in series to reduce the current
Try it with one - first


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## Vanquizor (Nov 17, 2009)

Interesting you mention that- we are on 110 here, and I was thinking about putting together a bad boy if I can figure it out.

I have a power bar in my garage with a built in breaker and programmable timer to give it a bit of manners, I'd have to go digging for a rectifier and suitable capacitor.

The whole thing sounds a little ******* and dangerous, but hopefully I'll have a proper charger in a month so its a reasonable stop gap solution... of course so is just dealing with the slow charging I have now.


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## timk225 (Sep 19, 2014)

So what's the latest news on your Neon and replacing the controller?


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## Vanquizor (Nov 17, 2009)

Replacement controller is bouncing around in the back of a fedex truck somewhere between california and here- should arrive before this week-end. I'm hoping for a little earlier in the week so I can get it installed and race the vehicle this Sunday.

I did a little work on the battery hold downs and also grabbed a cheap vacuum pump for the brakes- its likely to be annoying as it seems to cycle a lot but that could also be due to leaks between it and the test booster I was using as well. I'll get that sorted and secured to the car in the next day or two while still waiting for parts. I'm also individually charging each battery in the pack with a single battery charger to hopefully let my pack start life more or less balanced.

Last thing is I'm thinking about heating options. Its dipping to near freezing at night now so its not long before -20 will be the norm again. I like the instant on of doing creamic heaters in the stock heater core, but not the prospect of pulling the dash to do it. Are there any decently effective and efficient liquid heater options? Reading project logs it looks like most use tons of power and a large mass of coolant leading to the same heater lag the ice version of our vehicles have.


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## Vanquizor (Nov 17, 2009)

While I'm at it I'll throw out one more question- on the curtis 1231C there is a connection for A2 that appears to be used for plug braking. It is my intention to omit this connection to defeat the plug braking function. Any issues with this?


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## Vanquizor (Nov 17, 2009)

Still waiting on parts- may be tough to make the track this week end if they don't show up in the next couple hours.

Still I did a little work on getting some heat in the car- pulling the dash to get at the heater core is really no fun so I figures I'd just swap things up and put a couple ceramic heating elements on the intake side.


Theres that air inlet....



Little tight there, also not very protected from the elements- lets cut a hole and duct it into the engine bay.



A little rework on the cheap heater's fan shroud to make it retain a double stack.



There we go- thats a little better.



And there's the general concept.

Still need to do a little tin work to fab up the duct and some mounting brackets.

As always feedback is appreciated.


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## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

Interesting heater concept with the double stack. What are you using to turn them on and off with?


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## Vanquizor (Nov 17, 2009)

I'd like to find a couple smaller contactors or solid state relays so I can have the option of triggering 1 or both, but for now they will both be turned on by an ev200 contactor mostly because thats what I have that I think will work and can be easily turned on and off.


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## steelneck (Apr 19, 2013)

I have three PTC-elements in a row replacing the original heater radiator.
http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showpost.php?p=390450&postcount=52

I have a 20A/600V solid state relay run by a small 555 based PWM module to stepless control the heat. Under the hood i also have three way switch to chose how many of the elements to use, two will probably be fine most of the time and the third only when it gets really cold. 
So far, around 200km test driving it has worked well.
http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showpost.php?p=456241&postcount=121

EDIT
I think you will get very little power out of your second element that receive already hot air. PTC-elements draw more amps the more cold air you blow past them. I tried one of my 1500W elements with no cooling at all, just connected pack voltage when it was laying on a piece of scrap wood, in this overheated state it almost made burn marks in the wood and it stabilized around 0.2A that at my voltage is 50W.


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## Vanquizor (Nov 17, 2009)

where did you source the SSR's? The sources I've found so far want over $100 each...

My thought process on the dual elements is that if 1 element was sufficient to heat the air enough to render the second ineffective we wouldn't see a need for 2 or more elements... this could be false logic though.


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## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

Vanquizor said:


> My thought process on the dual elements is that if 1 element was sufficient to heat the air enough to render the second ineffective we wouldn't see a need for 2 or more elements... this could be false logic though.


Kind of a neat concept if it works...


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## steelneck (Apr 19, 2013)

Vanquizor said:


> where did you source the SSR's? The sources I've found so far want over $100 each...


I got them from old cab heaters where the fan had broken down. This is usually the case with modern cab heaters, the fan gets worn out, not the PTC elements.



Vanquizor said:


> My thought process on the dual elements is that if 1 element was sufficient to heat the air enough to render the second ineffective we wouldn't see a need for 2 or more elements... this could be false logic though.


It wont render the second completely ineffective, you just wont get that many watts out of it. If you have two 1500W elements i guess you will get 1500W from the first, but maybe only 500W from the second. But 2000W is quite a lot unless we are talking -25C or so. I have tried to design my conversion to work above the arctic circle where i live, so i may be a bit on the extreme side..


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## crackerjackz (Jun 26, 2009)

Just no less than a month ago i bought these to replace my ssr relays .... http://pages.ebay.com/link/?nav=item.view&alt=web&id=321252034221 

I only paid 35$ each though now they serm at a 100 ????


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## Vanquizor (Nov 17, 2009)

steelneck said:


> I got them from old cab heaters where the fan had broken down. This is usually the case with modern cab heaters, the fan gets worn out, not the PTC elements.
> 
> 
> 
> It wont render the second completely ineffective, you just wont get that many watts out of it. If you have two 1500W elements i guess you will get 1500W from the first, but maybe only 500W from the second. But 2000W is quite a lot unless we are talking -25C or so. I have tried to design my conversion to work above the arctic circle where i live, so i may be a bit on the extreme side..



Our winter lows get to ~-45C for a week or so so I guess I'll be testing the system quite thoroughly.


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## steelneck (Apr 19, 2013)

> Vanquizor said:
> 
> 
> > where did you source the SSR's? The sources I've found so far want over $100 each...
> ...


I answered the wrong question. I only have one SSR, i got it from Farnell.com.
http://se.farnell.com/crydom/dc400d20c/ssr-20a-400vdc/dp/2061275


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## Vanquizor (Nov 17, 2009)

So while we are on the topic of winterizing- what is the prefered approach to keeping the batteries happy? I was thinking of laying a couple battery blankets in the bottom of my trays- this would lay a 80 watt battery blanket under the each of the strings of 5 in the trunk, and a 3rd one under and up the sides of the front 2 batteries.

Not sure if that is a better use of 240 watts than just pumping it in though the charging cables though?


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## crackerjackz (Jun 26, 2009)

I have a dual element setup as well except they are side by side ... I hooked them up so low is half of each element and high is full on ... Winter here gets to the -35 c ... From the heat coming out of those things im not even worried it will be equivalent to stock or better  ... Plus instant ... No heating motor dead time  ...


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## Vanquizor (Nov 17, 2009)

So I haven't been very motivated- still waiting for the replacement controller and having to miss the track time I was looking forward to. Regardless I did make some progress on the heating over the last few days:



Started with a lid.






Added a couple sides.



And since I wasn't too diligent with the fit of my panels lots of goo to seal it.



And finally a nice flat front plate to mount the heater assembly on. I didn't grab any pics, but of course there was more goo applied to seal the gaps between the firewall and front panel. My goo of choice for this was a caulk designed to seal chimneys on fireplaces so I'm pretty sure it will hold up o.k. to the temperatures it will see here.


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## Vanquizor (Nov 17, 2009)

Happy days! Looks like I got 2 packages, both brought a smile to my face:

#1




O.K. not new or god's gift to controllers, but comparable in both price and performance to open revolt without the soldering and lead time for parts.

#2


Personalized plate... Bolted on and all legit, my car is officially registered as electric. If things go to plan I'll do a little test drive tonight and take the car to work tomorrow.


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## timk225 (Sep 19, 2014)

Hope it works good! Looking forward to hearing how well it runs, how fast it goes, and how far it can go on a charge! 

Any idea what caused the other controller to blow? Maybe something isn't wired right?


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## Vanquizor (Nov 17, 2009)

So the test drive went pretty well... there is a VAST difference between the Curtis and my old logisystems controler. The Curtis is FAR softer off the line, so much so that I found myself using at least 1/2 pedal without thinking about it. I'll have to figure out what kind of adjustability there is as the throttle ramp is currently too slow for my liking. I felt I was using a LOT of pedal by the end of the trip but cycle analyst shows I drew a max of 180 amps. 





According to cycle analyst I used 422 watt hours for that short trip. Upon return I tossed the power supplies on it to top the battery for tomorrows trip- it took 0.46kWh from the wall to do so according to my watt meter so that tells me the factory calibration on my shunt is at least reasonable.

Obviously I'll have better data after a real trip, but its given me enough confidence to drive it to work- drawing 2 or 3 kwh from my pack shouldn't be any trouble at all.


As for the old controler- its my understanding that pretty much every logisystems controler built has suffered a similar fate. I knew that going in so I can't say I was surprised that it blew.


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## Vanquizor (Nov 17, 2009)

So I'm at work today- smooth trip. A quick under hood check when I got here shows the controller is barely above ambient temp and I don't think the motor was at all. 

Also I thought all the other threads I read where people were complaining about the noise made by their vacuum pump were really being petty, but I take that back- the pump is by FAR the loudest thing as I'm driving around. I'll have to think of a new mounting point somewhere farther from the firewall.


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## Vanquizor (Nov 17, 2009)

Yep it drives and does all sort of good car things. Still getting used to things, but 1 thing is for sure- I'm glad I kept the clutch. Leave the cluchles shifting for the guys with dog boxes or dog box conversions, syncros are just too slow for any 'fun' street or performance vehicle.

anyhow here's some data from my adventures yesterday:








147wh/km (238wh/mile for my american friends) is not great, but given its on snow tires and I haven't done an alignment yet its not all that bad either.

Plans are to clean up some of the detail stuff, start scouring the scrap dealers for some more heavy gauge wiring so I can improve my layout, and maybe do some corner balancing on the car this week end.


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## timk225 (Sep 19, 2014)

Sounds good, I'm curious to see how far it can go on a charge. What's your top speed so far?

Definitely get an alignment done, it will help. What is the total weight of the car as a gas engine and as electric?

How many different gears do you use while driving it?

If you can't find heavy gauge wiring, then two separate pieces of smaller gauge should be as good, shouldn't it? But then it adds weight having everything double cabled.


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## Vanquizor (Nov 17, 2009)

On my way home after taking the family for a first ride in the car I ended up the first guy at the traffic light heading onto the freeway. Seeing this coming I took out my phone's performance logger and did the first "performance" run with the car.

From the first run I can tell you I don't know the first thing about driving this car for performance, but the result was a 0-60 of 25.46 seconds. I was obviously short shifting as the power drawn was still increasing each time I shifted. I'll have to figure out what a safe "racing" shift point for the motor is to figure out the true potential. Also the app I'm using starts timing when you hit go not when the vehicle starts moving so there is some reaction time in there too. Regardless its something to use as a baseline. 

Top speed is in excess of 80MPH, I'll get an accurate value on it when I'm at a racetrack next year.

Other notes from the run are that I'll want some cooling on the controller before I really beat on it- after the run and a ~3km trip down the highway followed by a couple k on the surface streets to my garage the controller was pretty warm (noticeably hot to touch but not so much you couldn't hold your hand on it) while the motor was just starting to get some temperature in it (a little above ambient to the touch- definitely not hot).

I threw the car on the scales- decided not to adjust anything right now as its good enough for a daily driver... actually pretty good for a track car too all be it a little porky (50.8% f/ 49.2%R 50.4/49.6 cross weight). 



From this either I need to go on a diet, or as I continue to build I need to work on shifting weight down and to the right. Factory curb weight for the Neons is usually 2400-2500 so I'm pretty close to that with where the car sits right now.

Still on the to do list is an alignment if I can get a spare set of hands in the garage, cleaning up the wiring (finding heavy gauge wiring isin't a problem, getting it for $1.49 a foot like I did last time is the trick), re-mounting the vacuum pump so its quieter, and testing out the meanwell clone I bought as a dc-dc converter.


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## Vanquizor (Nov 17, 2009)

Took the car on a trip to the autowrecker today, and to gather some highway speed performance data. It turns out its not easy to find a nice flat highway, but I would guess level cruise at 60mph is 12-14kW but can only say with certainty it is between 10 and 20. By the time I got home I had allready put ~30km on it so I figured it was a good time to do a battery capacity and range test. I didn't expect to still be driving the 4km loop around my house a half hour later, but I was.

When I started driving the loop I told myself I would stop when I couldn't maintain the flow of traffic without dropping below 126V (~10.5V/battery) on acceleration... it turns out I'm not that patient and stopped at a nice round number:



Yep 8kWh out of my $600 lead pack, a tested range of 64.7km and probably another 10% if I wanted to be mean to them. This is MUCH better than I was expecting, and makes me more than comfortable I can do the work and back trip in the dead of winter. When I stopped driving I was dipping down to ~129V under acceleration and cruising at ~138V.

You will also note my efficiency for this trip was much higher- ~199wh/mile... it turns out I was previously running around with 20psi or less in the tires. Thats what I get for not checking them, they are now at the sidewall pressure of 44psi.


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## Vanquizor (Nov 17, 2009)

So a quick look at the weather said I had better get back at the work on the heater. A couple screws and a cable tie for good measure and I was in business. 

With the 2 core sandwich hooked up and the blower fan set to tornado I draw 20.8a with a pack voltage of ~152V or about 3150 watts. This is a little more than the cores are rated at (1250w each) but I'm pretty happy with it. Subjectively it felt about the same as the heat produced when the gas motor was up to temp, but I guess I won't really know till the snow flies. 

After that came the real test- I turned the fan down to its lowest and waited to see if things would get mealty hot... it turns out that whole self regulating thing works as the current draw backed off to just under 10a almost immediately after putting the fan on low setting. After 20 min nothing exciting happened so I unhooked my test leads and put the battery pack on the charger.

Last thing on the heater to do list is to pull a signal from the blower motor control to operate the contactor to turn on the heater.


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## steelneck (Apr 19, 2013)

Exactly my experience too, though i have a little more watts. You can expect a little more max amp draw when it gets really cold. The PTC elements really "behave" even if you do odd things with your heater/fan settings.


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## Vanquizor (Nov 17, 2009)

So I may have sinned a little- I added ~7lbs to the car that had absolutely no positive influence on performance, range or reliability... but boy did I enjoy rocking out to the stereo on the way to work this morning! In keeping with the theme of my car the stereo is relatively light weight, efficient, and most of all cheap!


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## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

There is nothing bad about riding in style! Maybe the music will cause you to be more relaxed, and therefore go easier on the pedal, which would lower your watt hours per mile...


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## Vanquizor (Nov 17, 2009)

So after a few weeks of driving to work and back I finally managed to break it. O.K. not the car, but rather one of the cheap power supplies I was using as a charger- I finally managed to get enough resistance on the Aadj to get the output up to the specified 4.7A and then the fuse blew. I went out and got a replacement, plugged it in and this time saw the smoke come out before the fuse blew again- it looks like the mosfets couldn't actually handle the specified output. (for reference my model is the one on the left, and its the 2 mosfets at the top of the picture under the heatsink I'm talking about)











So sadly I'm on to plan B for charging- I have a couple 72V charges from my e-bikes and hacked them into the pack. I thought the charging was slow before, but now that I'm putting a whopping 240 watts into the pack its just pathetic.

So what are the odds that replacing the mosfets will resurrect this power supply? Any recommendations on a replacement ( original is embossed k2197)?

Maybe I'm better off calling this thing a lost cause and stealing the components off the input section to start playing with charging bad boy style? I mean I've got inductors, caps, rectifier...


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## timk225 (Sep 19, 2014)

Buy or build a better charging system!


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## epyon (Mar 20, 2008)

Good work fellow road racer . Keep up the good work . I put my batteries as low as I could , but it will help out a lot later on the track . But it is hard doing it without the deep pockets some of these guy's have . Don't make the back hold all the batteries if you can (60/40 split ) .


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## Vanquizor (Nov 17, 2009)

Better charging is in the plan- I have a PFC 50 coming that will live in my garage and handle day to day duty. I would like to add an on board charger in the 700watt range- this would allow me to plug into the 120V outlets designed for block heaters without the breaker going when the car next to me plugs in his actual block heater. 

The pair of power supplies would be pretty much there if I could get them to run close to spec which is why I am still perusing that avenue. You'd think with 144v being a pretty common spec I'd be able to just grab one off the shelf, but I guess everyone makes the assumption that the car will have a dedicated circuit and builds their entry level charger to 1500 watts.


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## dcb (Dec 5, 2009)

check out the series capacitor thread for inexpensive onboard charging backup, see if it makes sense to you? can be scrapped together for like $20 (more with auto-shutoff).
http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showthread.php/variable-voltage-battery-charger-48691.html


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## Vanquizor (Nov 17, 2009)

So I've been daily driving this for about a month now- seems to get the job done. Daily highs have been in the -10C to -20C range for a week now (~0f)- the heater seems to do its job. Its comfortable enough that I drive without gloves on, but I don't feel the urge to turn it down or off unless I look at the watts being consumed. Its better than the heater in my wife's truck at idle, but under load the truck's heater blows the EV one away.

Next project on the go is getting a dc to dc converter wired in so I can stop having to charge the chassis battery daily (o.k. I'm lazy- every 2nd or 3rd day).


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## timk225 (Sep 19, 2014)

I've been wondering how this Neon project was going!

How many miles can you get out of a charge with the cold weather and the heater running? Does the cold affect the pack voltage very much? How many volts is a full charge and at what voltage do you stop driving?


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## Vanquizor (Nov 17, 2009)

Not sure I can accurately answer all your questions, but how about I lay out my typical day.

I leave the garage- voltage ~163v car nice and warm. Somewhere along the way the car stops feeling warm so I flip on the heater with the fan on a middle setting it seems to draw ~13A for however long it takes to finish my drive. Total distance is 7-8km and I've drawn ~12Ah or so from my pack. I plug in with my snail pace chargers (draw ~250 watts) and go into work.

After work I unplug the chargers- sometimes they are done, some times not but I'm usually still ~160V so almost fully charged. The car is very cold so the heater and fan go on max as soon as the key is on. At this setting the heater draws ~22A and off I go. A couple minutes into the drive I start feeling pretty comfortable so I peel off my gloves. Near the end of the commute I shut off the heater and dial the fan back to medium. At the end of the day I pull into the garage having driven 7-8km with ~20 minutes heater use I have consumed ~15Ah. I plug in with the snail pace chargers and go in the house for supper.

I rarely look at the voltage because I'm not pushing limits at all. When I did my range test at first build I used 126V under load as my cutoff and I have kind of kept that in the back of my mind but it is not an issue at all. I demonstrated over 55Ah available capacity in my range test, so I'm currently counting on roughly 1/3 of that being there for me which I think is a really safe bet.

That being said I am interested in what it is capable of when it is truly the dead of winter and will likely do a range test when our daily highs are -40C.


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## timk225 (Sep 19, 2014)

Wow. Such cold. I hate the cold. Today in Pittsburgh I woke up at 12 degrees (Fahrenheit), and the temperature got all the way up to 19. This is what I refer to as "Bullshit Cold", as in "IT'S BULLSHIT THAT IT IS THIS COLD!!!".

Last winter, I was in Los Angeles and it was nice. Low's in the 50s, highs in the 80s in my area. I miss it.

I have seen that Discovery Channel show about people who live way out in the middle of nowhere in friggin' Alaska, and all I can think is "What the hell is the matter with these people to voluntarily be in such constant cold?".


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## Vanquizor (Nov 17, 2009)

I truly hate the cold too, as does pretty much everyone that lives here. The only difference is we have friends/family/jobs that keep us here.


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## epyon (Mar 20, 2008)

So , your not gonna turn this into a race car ? Not dumping that money on gas is nice . I think your gonna get a Stripped down Neon an race that . Save the money for a used Zilla 2k !!


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## Vanquizor (Nov 17, 2009)

What is the difference between a street car and a race car? The way I see it its just an entry form and a registration fee...


If I wanted to get real serious about racing it I have 3 caged and log booked neon chassis the drive train could bolt into in a week-end, but I don't think my infrastructure or knowledge is there yet. I wouldn't want to take a step just to be a participant though, I'd want to be comfortable I have at least a mid pack car.

This board seems to be pretty good with hypothetical situations so lets play!

I expect the electric neon to take the same development path I did early in my racing career starting with autocross- for calculations I'm calling it max output on a ~50% duty cycle for 1-2.5 minutes. I've won multiple times in the past with tired neons on good tires, based on that I estimate that if I can put down an average of 90hp in the power band I can win, and can probably run mid pack with 2/3 of that. Events consist of 3 runs 1-1.5 hours apart.

So what kind of juice do we need? Given I have horsepower data that should be easy- someone check my math

min output for mid pack = 60hp ~60,000 watts
Total consumption per run at min power = 1250 watt hours

output to win ~90,000 watts
consumption= 1875 watt hours

Can the battery do this?
After a little digging I found it is supposed to offer in excess of 825 cranking amps (rated at 32f for 30 seconds sagging to no less than 7.2V according to SAE standards) Autocross is in the summer when its a lot warmer, and we are probably only hitting it 10 sec at a time so its safe to say under our test conditions it will perform better than that. Still 825a @7.2Vx12= 71280 watts so I'd say yes to run and probably o.k. to win.

Energy is not really a constraint- well within the battery capacity for 1 run or even all 3, but in reality we will have it on the charger between runs to get the most out of it.

Can the motor do this?
I found a nice little chart from a vendor that says the impulse9 has a 5 minute rating of 450A, and others have demonstrated bursts of 2kA down the drag strip so again with maybe 10 sec pulses I'd say we are definitely o.k to run and probably o.k. to win. 

Can the controller do this?
I'm currently running a 1231C with a 2 minute rating of 500A and a peak rating of 500A. With the 144v top voltage rating we get a peak of 72000 watts so we won't win with this one. To get the 60000 watts we need to run that means we have to operate our system in such a way that our motor side is above 120V- with the top end being 144V thats a pretty narrow window. Can we run- maybe.

Can the system do it?
Here is where the rubber really meets the road... in actual testing only mildly exceeding the recommended 5000 rpm limit of the motor I see a peak of ~38,000 watts. Output is still rising with RPM so that tells me I am sitting on the motor side currrent limiter. If I gear up I am lower motor volts therefore less power, if I gear down I'm farther past the redline. At the end of the day I need more controller or a different motor- since the controller is the greater constraint that will be the next step, and the key to starting to go racing.

Up next- Circle track racing- 6-10 minute races max power on a 70% duty cycle. 6 min race, 30 min break, 6 min race, 1 hour break, 10 min feature race.


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## timk225 (Sep 19, 2014)

So how is the Neon running? What's the latest news?


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## Vanquizor (Nov 17, 2009)

No real news- running to work and back every day. I have a pfc-50 in my garage now to charge with but I haven't got the right plug to try it out yet so I'm still SLOW charging it but it meets my needs.


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## timk225 (Sep 19, 2014)

I think it was mentioned earlier, but what sort of charger are you using now (how high of a charging rate) and how long would it take to fill up the batteries from the lower limit of charge?


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## Vanquizor (Nov 17, 2009)

Right now I'm using 2 of my e-bike chargers, they are pretty similar to this:

http://www.ebay.ca/itm/72V-2-5-Amp-...66149?pt=Battery_Chargers&hash=item2a3296bd85

Each one is wired to 1/2 the pack. Obviously I never deplete the pack completely, all I can say for certain is that they replenish what I use from my pack in less than my work day. They are far from an ideal charger, but they were what I had in my garage.

From a theoretical standpoint the slow chargers should take a flat battery pack to full in about 2 days, the PFC 50 in about 2 hours.


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## Vanquizor (Nov 17, 2009)

So it turns out leaving the car outside in the cold for 4 days then driving to work at a temperature of -29C is about all the battery can deliver. Made it to work today but I think its safe to day I was VERY mean to it. Total pack voltage was dropping to 100V and it was slow going as I pulled into the parking lot. Also one of my chargers either isin't functioning or has LED issues in this kind of cold... lousy day for my electric car.


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## Vanquizor (Nov 17, 2009)

For those following pretty much the everything is not happy after a cold soak in the -25 to -35 C temperature range. I estimate only 1/3 to 1/4 of total capacity available at this kind of temperature.


Anyhow after a night in the garage the car is much happier.


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## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

That is some pretty cold weather. This morning, I was amazed to find frost on the ground, but it sounds like you are seeing much harsher temperatures up there. I don't comment too often, but I read every post on this thread as it is posted. Keep on updating this thread!


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## Vanquizor (Nov 17, 2009)

So I finally go the Dc to DC running- I should probably add a switch in there somewhere but for now it is an always on float charger for the 12V system. Since the car is driven daily and the standby current is 0.1amp or less I figure I can live with it. If the car was parked for a while the service disconnect would also shut down the dc to dc.


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## Vanquizor (Nov 17, 2009)

New parts day... I managed to pick up a Chevy Volt battery pack for $1500 CAD (~1200USD). It was a mid 2012 car with 62k miles on it so it will be interesting to see what kind of capacity the modules have left, but at the price I figured it was worth a shot.

So anyone have an idea what kind of voltage the Curtis 1231c-8601 will actually tolerate?

I'm currently hitting about 170V hot off the charger and it seems fine with this. If I were to simply split the chevy volt pack in half and parallel them I'd be 177.6V nominal, 196.8V off the charger... will play nice or let the magic smoke out?

I could leave a module out and end up at 155.4V nominal, 174.3V off the charger... but where is the fun in that?

As always feedback is appreciated!


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## Vanquizor (Nov 17, 2009)

Finally got my Volt pack home- sitting at 350.6V so I'd say that is acceptable. Started to tear it down- I'm thinking of retaining the liquid cooling so that will mean a little lego with the modules and end plates but it seems doable. Plan is to use allthread with nuts to get the new length support rods I need to hold customized modules together.

Still looking for opinion on how far I can push the curtis...


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## Moltenmetal (Mar 20, 2014)

Watching your Voltification with interest!

In your climate (worse than mine!) I think retaining the thermal management is a good idea, more for the cold than the heat!


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## timk225 (Sep 19, 2014)

Get a small trailer to haul that Volt battery around in, hook it up to the back of your Neon, and run some BIG power cables into the car to hook it up!


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## Vanquizor (Nov 17, 2009)

Surely that was in jest, but in actual fact it really wouldn't be that tough to drop the pack on a trailer, wire it to the input of a charger, and effectively charge the car's pack from whatever battery pack was sitting on the trailer without worrying about voltage differences. As long as whatever is sitting on the trailer is 100-400V DC it should work fine with my existing gear, and the 4g car audio cable in my garage would be sufficient for the 50-75a my PFC50 puts out while being more manageable than the airlines some tractor/trailer units use. Anderson on the trunk, anderson on the cable and bob's your uncle. 

I guess if I had a desperate need to road trip and all 5 of my gas powered vehicles were broken at the same time I might try it...other wise its a little too out there even for me. Given the weight and dimensions involved I could easily incorporate both my current pack and the volt pack in the car if I needed that kind of range, but I don't so lighter weight will win.


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## timk225 (Sep 19, 2014)

First time back here in 9 months for me. Whatever happened with this Neon project?


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## Vanquizor (Nov 17, 2009)

Drove to work and back a bunch of times- its going into the garage this winter for a controller, battery and chassis upgrade.


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