# Baldor



## Jokerzwild (Jun 11, 2009)

I am trying to get a used AC motor:
Do you think I can use these old ones or will they not work? Is there anyway to make them work? Is there anyway to lighten them up(660lbs)? Its just down the street from me and I can just go pick it up.

Whats the diffrent between all the torque ratings: Brakedown, Rated and Pull-up and locked roter?


*CAT.NO. *M4114T​
*SPEC.​*​​​​10F371X656H1​
*HP​*​​​​50​
*VOLTS​*​​​​230/460​
*AMP​*​​​​116/58​
*RPM​*​​​​3550​
*FRAME​*​​​​326TS *HZ *60 *PH *3​
*SER.F.​*​​​​1.15 *CODE *H *DES *B *CLASS *F​
*NEMA-NOM-EFF​*​​​​92.4 *PF *90​
*RATING​*​​​​40C AMB-CONT​
*CC​*​​​​010A *USABLE AT 208V *126​
*DE​*​​​​6312 *ODE *6309​
*ENCL *TEFC
*Performance Data at 460V, 60Hz, 50.0HP (Typical performance - Not guaranteed values)​General Characteristics
Full Load Torque:​*​​​​74.4 LB-FT
*Start Configuration: *DOL​
*No-Load Current:​*​​​​14.19 Amps 
*Break-Down Torque: *280.0 LB-FT​
*Line-line Res. @ 25°C.:​*​​​​0.106 Ohms A Ph / 0.0 Ohms B Ph 
*Pull-Up Torque: *120.0 LB-FT​
*Temp. Rise @ Rated Load:​*​​​​79ºC *Locked-Rotor Torque: *169.0 LB-FT​
*Temp. Rise @ S.F. Load:​*​​​​94ºC *Starting Current: *430.0 Amps​
*Load Characteristics
% of Rated Load: 25 50 75 100 125 150 S.F.
Power Factor:​*​​​​66.0 83.0 88.0 90.0 91.0 91.0 91.0​
*Efficiency:​*​​​​88.0 92.1 92.8 92.6 92.1 91.2 92.3​
*Speed:​*​​​​3582.0 3565.0 3547.0 3528.0 3507.0 3485.0 3515.0​
*Line Amperes: *20.03 30.6 42.8 55.9 69.5 84.2 64.1


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## samborambo (Aug 27, 2008)

Perfect.....for a bus or 30 ton truck maybe.

300kg 326 frame is a tad excessive. My calculations put the maximum power (at 3528RPM) at 185hp. That's an overload rating of 3.7.

It would be a quick car but choose your car wisely to take that extra weight. 300kg of motor plus how much for batteries?

Its probably a cast iron frame. Look for a more modern aluminium frame motor.

Sam.


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## Jokerzwild (Jun 11, 2009)

samborambo said:


> Perfect.....for a bus or 30 ton truck maybe.
> 
> 300kg 326 frame is a tad excessive. My calculations put the maximum power (at 3528RPM) at 185hp. That's an overload rating of 3.7.
> 
> ...


Its a cast iron frame, any ideas in droping weight.


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## samborambo (Aug 27, 2008)

Jokerzwild said:


> Its a cast iron frame, any ideas in droping weight.


Well you could "de-tank" the stator from the cast iron enclosure and roll an aluminium one to replace it. You'll also need to fabricate bearing housings for each end and a new cable box. It's not an insurmountable task if you've got access to a metal work shop and an AC tig welder.

Most of the weight is in the stator iron and windings. There's nothing you can really do about reducing that.

If you designed the new housing with a water jacket for water cooling you could increase the continuous rating of the motor. That might not be useful since a car only needs 15-20hp continuous for 60mph highway cruising.

Sam.


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## Jokerzwild (Jun 11, 2009)

samborambo said:


> Well you could "de-tank" the stator from the cast iron enclosure and roll an aluminium one to replace it. You'll also need to fabricate bearing housings for each end and a new cable box. It's not an insurmountable task if you've got access to a metal work shop and an AC tig welder.
> 
> Most of the weight is in the stator iron and windings. There's nothing you can really do about reducing that.
> 
> ...


THanks;
The guy next to me has 15 years in at a shop so he will help me out. I realy want that 100mph and enough torque to spin the wheels.


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

Jokerzwild said:


> Whats the diffrent between all the torque ratings: Brakedown, Rated and Pull-up and locked roter?


Hey Joke,​ 
Check this out.​ 
Regards,​ 
major​


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## Jokerzwild (Jun 11, 2009)

Im getting there


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## samborambo (Aug 27, 2008)

major said:


> Hey Joke,​
> 
> Check this out.​
> Regards,​
> ...


That's a handy graph. I think its worth pointing out to those unfamiliar with induction motors that the graph Major posted is the profile of an induction motor starting Direct Online (DOL). That is, the motor is at rest and the rated frequency and voltage is applied to the motor. This results in a current draw of 7x-8x rated until it approaches synchronous speed.

In a car you're using a variable speed drive on an induction motor. The pull-up torque doesn't affect our application since the motor is brought up to speed in a controlled manner.

Breakdown torque is synonymous with stall torque. 

The general rule of thumb is that slip is proportional to torque. However, when the slip goes below the breakdown/stall point, the rotor is too far out of synchronisation to develop maximum torque and causes the motor to stall, assuming the load on the motor has low inertia.

Synchronous motors, on the other hand, don't have any slip. They are tightly held in synchronisation with torque being proportional to the angle between the static field on the rotor and the rotating field in the stator. When synchronous motors approach stall/breakdown torque, the angle becomes too much and causes the rotor to "skip" a whole step. This results in massive torque ripple / vibration and may result in damage to the controller or loss of traction on the road. Induction motors handle stall conditions much more gracefully, especially with high inertia loads.

Sam.


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

samborambo said:


> That's a handy graph.
> 
> Breakdown torque is synonymous with stall torque.


Thanks for elaborating Sam,

But these guys should not get the impression that breakdown torque is a usable starting, stall or operating condition torque for an inverter fed induction motor. Unless you have a ridiculously oversized inverter, you'll want to stay away from that much load. 

Regards,

major


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

That motor is at least 3 times heavier than anything you really need and you'll end up carrying far less battery because of it.


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## samborambo (Aug 27, 2008)

JRP3 said:


> That motor is at least 3 times heavier than anything you really need and you'll end up carrying far less battery because of it.


100kg motor + 600kg lead + 900kg car = 1600kg

300kg motor + 600kg lead + 900kg car = 1800kg, only a 12.5% increase in weight with 3 times the motive power.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

3 times the motive power of what? He says he wants 100mph and to be able to spin the tires, he doesn't need a 600lb motor to do that.


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## samborambo (Aug 27, 2008)

3 times the power of a 65kW, 100kg motor.

Come on JRP, this would be far more interesting than the usual ADC 9" + Alltrax + lead acid.

Oh, and don't bother with a gearbox. You'll still light up the tires anyway.

That saves another 50kg don't ya think?

Sam.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Sure it's interesting, but it just seems like unnecessary motor weight. How about this, no transmission, plenty of burnout power, 230lb motor









http://gallery.lisaandmike.org/27roadster


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## samborambo (Aug 27, 2008)

I think he's implying that this motor is free / very cheap. That dragster has a US$3700 motor in it.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Yes cost is a consideration, but the Warp11 is basically a 11 inch GE motor. They can be found in forklifts for a lot less. I just think he may end up paying more in the long run to try and get that giant motor working, we haven't even discussed control issues. As you said, it's more appropriate for a bus.


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## samborambo (Aug 27, 2008)

JRP3 said:


> Yes cost is a consideration, but the Warp11 is basically a 11 inch GE motor. They can be found in forklifts for a lot less. I just think he may end up paying more in the long run to try and get that giant motor working, we haven't even discussed control issues. As you said, it's more appropriate for a bus.


It'd be great in something like an SUV or pickup truck. Jokerz, remeber this is an ambitious project. You still need to find a VSD to run this beast.

Sam.


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## Jokerzwild (Jun 11, 2009)

Its for a pick up truck, Its going into a S10 that will be set up like a roadster. Here is the thing I kind of want to do this with cheap used parts except the batteries. This way if I blow it up no big deal! This is my learning curve car. As you guys know when it comes to Electric motors I know poop!


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## samborambo (Aug 27, 2008)

Jokerzwild said:


> Its for a pick up truck, Its going into a S10 that will be set up like a roadster. Here is the thing I kind of want to do this with cheap used parts except the batteries. This way if I blow it up no big deal! This is my learning curve car. As you guys know when it comes to Electric motors I know poop!


If you're doing it on the cheap, the question of what to do about the VSD becomes very important. Ask etischer about what's involved in tricking out a 2kW VSD to run a 185hp motor. He did one for his BMW.

Sam.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Jokerzwild said:


> As you guys know when it comes to Electric motors I know poop!


Then stay away from this motor, beyond the weight you won't be able to build or modify a controller to run it. Little knowledge + little money = series DC motors. Read through the forklift motor thread and go from there. Just my advice, feel free to ignore it.


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## Jokerzwild (Jun 11, 2009)

So on the above cars Warp he is claiming:
weighs 237 lbs. The max output is 450 HP and 1000 ft lbs of torque

Is this true and is he doing this with a 150kva controller?

What is the rated RPM's and torque? Dont I need higher RPM's/torque from an AC to drive freeway speeds of 80+ for any time at all or will I hit those numbers from a DC?


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## samborambo (Aug 27, 2008)

Jokerzwild said:


> So on the above cars Warp he is claiming:
> weighs 237 lbs. The max output is 450 HP and 1000 ft lbs of torque
> 
> Is this true and is he doing this with a 150kva controller?
> ...


Completely fudged numbers. Take it with a grain of salt. There's no way he's getting 450hp or 1000ft lbs of torque out of that motor. 1000ft lbs at the wheels, maybe.

I think those motors are good for about 90hp. I could be wrong though. Definitely not 450hp.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Tesseract has gotten a Warp9 over 115 on a dyno with a less than optimal battery pack, I'd think a Warp11 should be capable of a good bit more. Not 450 of course.


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## few2many (Jun 23, 2009)

Hey jokerz, been readin youre thread. I have and plan on using a Baldor m2535t 3phase ac motor. Its rated for 30hp(been told max is approx 120), 1760rpm, 60hz, and 36 amps at 460v or 72a @ 230v. I have had a bitch of a time finding anything even remotely affordable or budget minded for this motor. Even though i got it for free, the cost to run it has made me think about a dc set up. For now, I plan on sticking with it, within yet undefined limits. Had I known the cost upfront i would have passed, i certainly wouldnt have payed for it, even at pennies on the dollar!


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