# Motor Identification (AC or DC)



## major (Apr 4, 2008)

The 48V DC figure is the battery voltage required as input to the inverter (AC motot controller) for it to synthesize an AC output to the motor of 32V AC_rms Max. And I suspect it would do well with a Curtis AC motor controller if you have it properly tuned.

major


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## tallatghazi (Sep 29, 2018)

major said:


> The 48V DC figure is the battery voltage required as input to the inverter (AC motot controller) for it to synthesize an AC output to the motor of 32V AC_rms Max. And I suspect it would do well with a Curtis AC motor controller if you have it properly tuned.
> 
> major


Thanks for your quick reply, I forget to mention that Motor has 3 big terminals (U, V & W) as well as 2 independent sets of thin wires.

Sir, CURIS AC Motor controller 1236 will give 3-phase 48V AC input to motor, where as mentioned Motor is 32V, so will the motor not become damage?
and also kindly confirm is it okay to give 3-phase 48V AC input to motor?


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

tallatghazi said:


> Thanks for your quick reply, I forget to mention that Motor has 3 big terminals (U, V & W) as well as 2 independent sets of thin wires.
> 
> Sir, CURIS AC Motor controller 1236 will give 3-phase 48V AC input to motor, where as mentioned Motor is 32V, so will the motor not become damage?
> and also kindly confirm is it okay to give 3-phase 48V AC input to motor?


If you use a 48V DC battery, the maximum rms AC phase voltage possible with inverters like the Curtis is around 32. No worry.

But should you choose to go to a higher voltage battery and higher voltage inverter, the motor very likely would tolerate the higher voltage well as long as your frequency is correct (inferring higher RPM) and the system is properly tuned.

major


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## tallatghazi (Sep 29, 2018)

major said:


> If you use a 48V DC battery, the maximum rms AC phase voltage possible with inverters like the Curtis is around 32. No worry.
> 
> But should you choose to go to a higher voltage battery and higher voltage inverter, the motor very likely would tolerate the higher voltage well as long as your frequency is correct (inferring higher RPM) and the system is properly tuned.
> 
> major


I have finalized to use 48V as my battery bank and Curtis 1236 (AC Induction Motor Controller) as my controller. 
Based on your input, my Plan is to give:
48VDC to CURTIS 1236 and then from CURTIS 1236 (3-phase 48VAC) to Mentioned Motor (to 3-big terminals).

With the help of sticker on Motor, can you judge that is it an AC Induction motor? 
With term "inverter" Do you mean Curtis 1236?


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

tallatghazi said:


> I have finalized to use 48V as my battery bank and Curtis 1236 (AC Induction Motor Controller) as my controller.
> Based on your input, my Plan is to give:
> 48VDC to CURTIS 1236 and then from CURTIS 1236 (3-phase 48VAC) to Mentioned Motor (to 3-big terminals).
> 
> ...


Yes, it is an induction motor, 61Hz & 1780RPM rated infers it is a 4 pole asynchronous motor. Yes, all solid state AC motor controllers are inverters. And as such, the maximum rms AC voltage is a little less than .707 times the DC buss.

major


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## tallatghazi (Sep 29, 2018)

major said:


> Yes, it is an induction motor, 61Hz & 1780RPM rated infers it is a 4 pole asynchronous motor. Yes, all solid state AC motor controllers are inverters. And as such, the maximum rms AC voltage is a little less than .707 times the DC buss.
> 
> major


Thanks a lot for your all input


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## tallatghazi (Sep 29, 2018)

major said:


> tallatghazi said:
> 
> 
> > I have finalized to use 48V as my battery bank and Curtis 1236 (AC Induction Motor Controller) as my controller.
> ...



Sir can you please confirm me that mentioned motor is a brushless permanent magnent 3-phase, AC motor and the CURTIS 1236 controller is an induction 3-phase motor controller. So will this controller be compatible with mentioned motor?


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

tallatghazi said:


> Sir can you please confirm me that mentioned motor is a brushless permanent magnent 3-phase, AC motor and the CURTIS 1236 controller is an induction 3-phase motor controller. So will this controller be compatible with mentioned motor?


The motor is an induction motor, NOT a brushless PM AC motor. Therefore, as an induction motor, it is compatible with the Curtis controller. It does need to be properly tuned, meaning having a number a parameters set in the Curtis. Tuning involves the use of a special handset or dongle & program. This is probably beyond you and would require you to send the motor to the Curtis dealer for the task. The handset programmer can be rented and it is possible that the dealer can "open" the controller software and instruct you how to self tune, but you should confirm that prior to purchase.

The best (easist) way is to use the controller from the original installation of the motor, or to purchase the motor and controller as a tuned package (for your application) from a reputable dealer.

Regards,

major


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## tallatghazi (Sep 29, 2018)

major said:


> The motor is an induction motor, NOT a brushless PM AC motor. Therefore, as an induction motor, it is compatible with the Curtis controller. It does need to be properly tuned, meaning having a number a parameters set in the Curtis. Tuning involves the use of a special handset or dongle & program. This is probably beyond you and would require you to send the motor to the Curtis dealer for the task. The handset programmer can be rented and it is possible that the dealer can "open" the controller software and instruct you how to self tune, but you should confirm that prior to purchase.
> 
> The best (easist) way is to use the controller from the original installation of the motor, or to purchase the motor and controller as a tuned package (for your application) from a reputable dealer.
> 
> ...


Can this motor also play a role as dynamo 48V DC?


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

tallatghazi said:


> Can this motor also play a role as dynamo 48V DC?


Any induction motor properly tuned and controlled with the Curtis has 4 quadrant capability meaning to motor or generate in either direction of rotation. If this is done with a 48 V battery, when mechanical power is delivered to the motor shaft, the battery will be charging or other electric loads can be powered.


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## tallatghazi (Sep 29, 2018)

major said:


> tallatghazi said:
> 
> 
> > Can this motor also play a role as dynamo 48V DC?
> ...


Sir, 
Is this motor 3-phase, induction motor? 
Can you also please confirm me that can this motor be used with Curtis 1236?
Can you please judge its input voltage? 
Thanks


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

I think I have answered these questions already, but for clarity:



tallatghazi said:


> Sir,
> Is this motor 3-phase, induction motor?


Yes.



tallatghazi said:


> Can you also please confirm me that can this motor be used with Curtis 1236?


Yes, but but the controller must be tuned for that particular motor, meaning certain parameters set to proper values.



tallatghazi said:


> Can you please judge its input voltage?


The nameplate specifies 32 VAC (at the motor terminals) and 48 VDC (input from the battery to the controller). However it is up to you to decide what voltage to use. The motor would likely run fine with 3-phase AC voltage from ~5 to ~150 VAC. Of course you need an appropriate, tuned controller. 

Regards,

major

*EDIT*

The above pertains to the motor shown in post #1.

The attachments on post #12 did not show up until I had posted this reply. The answers to the questions pertaining to the motor pictured in post #12 are:

No.

No.

No.


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

tallatghazi said:


> Sir,
> Is this motor 3-phase, induction motor?
> Can you also please confirm me that can this motor be used with Curtis 1236?
> Can you please judge its input voltage?





major said:


> ... The answers to the questions pertaining to the motor pictured in post #12 are:
> 
> No.
> 
> ...


LOL 

Agreed, but more specifically:


tallatghazi said:


> Is this motor 3-phase, induction motor?


No, because the partially obscured label includes words engine in "ONOUS" and "OR", which are presumably "synchronous motor". The "U", "V", "W" terminal labels indicate 3-phase power, but an induction motor is not a synchronous motor.



tallatghazi said:


> Can you also please confirm me that can this motor be used with Curtis 1236?


No, because the Curtis 1236 is for induction motors.



tallatghazi said:


> Can you please judge its input voltage?


No, because there is no visible information related to operating voltage.


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## Emyr (Oct 27, 2016)

brian_ said:


> No, because the partially obscured label includes words engine in "ONOUS" and "OR", which are presumably "synchronous motor". The "U", "V", "W" terminal labels indicate 3-phase power, but an induction motor is not a synchronous motor.


That label could say "ASYNCHRONOUS MOTOR". Better photo needed.


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## tallatghazi (Sep 29, 2018)

Emyr said:


> That label could say "ASYNCHRONOUS MOTOR". Better photo needed.


Regarding specific motor images mentioned in post#12 > Sticker clearly shows "PM SYNCHRONOUS MOTOR", 
I think "PM" stands for "Permanent Magnet".
Yes this motor has 3 poles mentioning U-V-W.


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

Emyr said:


> That label could say "ASYNCHRONOUS MOTOR". Better photo needed.


 LOL
Good point! Of course, it would probably be the first induction motor ever made with a label saying "asynchronous", but that would be technically correct.



tallatghazi said:


> Regarding specific motor images mentioned in post#12 > Sticker clearly shows "PM SYNCHRONOUS MOTOR",
> I think "PM" stands for "Permanent Magnet".


That's helpful. So...

yes, it's a permanent magnet type of synchronous motor, and 
no, it won't work with the Curtis 1236, unless these controllers intended for induction motors can be programmed to run synchronous motors.


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## tallatghazi (Sep 29, 2018)

Hi thanks all for your precious input.
Now I am in next stage and I shall be really grateful if any of (expert) can guide me that in attached image which wire color to be connected to Curtis 1236's which pin number?

As you can see in attached image, my motor has two set of thin wires:
Set-1(in white cover) > it has 1 red wire and 1 white wire.
Set-2(in black cover) > it has 1 red wire, 1 white wire, 1 black wire and 1 blue wire.

Thanks


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

tallatghazi said:


> Hi thanks all for your precious input.
> Now I am in next stage and I shall be really grateful if any of (expert) can guide me that in attached image which wire color to be connected to Curtis 1236's which pin number?
> 
> As you can see in attached image, my motor has two set of thin wires:
> ...


My guess, FWIW:

Two wire cable is thermal device like probably a thermistor.

The 4 wire cable is from the encoder. Likely a quadrature pulse generator. ?black-common, red-supply (5 or 12VDC+), blue-A phase, white-B phase.

You need to confirm wire/function guess and also determine the pulses per revolution, ppr. Does the device have a part#?. The pinouts can be found in the manual for the Curtis, available on-line.

Regards,

major


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## tallatghazi (Sep 29, 2018)

major said:


> My guess, FWIW:
> 
> Two wire cable is thermal device like probably a thermistor.
> 
> ...


Thanks,
I am using a used Hyundai AC Induction motor (attached image). Unfortunately its Nameplate (sticker is 90% not present).

I got my encoder wiring related answers on page number 9 of attached PDF and from attached "Curtis 1236" image (but still need your confirmation).

Encoder Wiring:
Pin7 = Black & Orange Wires
Pin8 = Blue Wire
Pin32 = Green Wire
Pin26 = Red Wire
Pin31 = White Wire


Thanks!


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

tallatghazi said:


> Thanks,
> I am using a used Hyundai AC Induction motor (attached image). Unfortunately its Nameplate (sticker is 90% not present).
> 
> I got my encoder wiring related answers on page number 9 of attached PDF and from attached "Curtis 1236" image (but still need your confirmation).
> ...


Hi tall,

Notice how many times I've referenced "properly tuned" and even mentioned sending the motor to the controller vendor for characterization and tuning. Still goes.

Thanks for the diagram and manual link. I've not seen those versions before. Apparently Thunderstruck and/or Curtis has developed software for these controllers which is compatible with PMSM. That's new to me. 

The diagram shows a motor # ME1507 which is a PMSM from Montenergy having a sin/cos feedback device instead of the usual pulse generator found on ACIM. I assume the motor you want to use is that which we identified as an ACIM. As such, the controller needs to be tuned to it. The technician doing this should be able to determine encoder requirements, pinouts and ppr. Contact your Curtis vendor.

Regards,

major

ps. edit. The AmpSeal 35 pin plug used in the controller is a real mofo. Contact pin (actually sockets) integrity is critical. The proper tool and dies cost like $300. I'd negotiate hiring the vendor to do this when he tunes it for you.


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