# Possible 1970s Opel GT Donor?



## MattsAwesomeStuff (Aug 10, 2017)

So I've been looking for crappy old cars with hopefully good bones to serve as my first car EV (I have built e-bikes and 90% of an EV motorbike).

I found an old 70s Opel GT for ~$1500. It doesn't seem too rusted, looks like someone's already sanded the rust off, apparently it runs (doesn't matter to me much). Seats are chewed up.

I like building things cheap, I'm not looking for performance, I want something to build without breaking the bank or feeling guilty about wrecking a classic, so, it seems a good fit that way.

It weighs about 2000lbs. It's 13.5' long. 2 seater. Described as "half a Corvette" (half the weight, half the power if you're lucky). Doesn't have a hatchback or a trunk, just a weirdly large parcel shelf. Front engine RWD.

I don't know enough about cars to know what to walk away from.

I already have a motor, a ~350lb 3ph motor from a forklift. I have a source of batteries.

Any reason I wouldn't want an Opel GT as my donor? Any gotchas that I'm not knowledgeable enough to know to ask about? Anything critical I should pay attention to when I'm inspecting the car?


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## jbman (Oct 26, 2017)

MattsAwesomeStuff said:


> So I've been looking for crappy old cars with hopefully good bones to serve as my first car EV (I have built e-bikes and 90% of an EV motorbike).
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Can you provide some pictures? Rust is a deal breaker a lot of the time, and it can be super hard to tell. 

Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk


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## MattsAwesomeStuff (Aug 10, 2017)

jbman said:


> Can you provide some pictures? Rust is a deal breaker a lot of the time, and it can be super hard to tell.


I meant, suitable as a donor in theory, not, this particular car.

But, yes, I'm going to go take some pictures when I go look at it, I'll be sure to post them.

Obviously rust is bad, but why?

The outside doesn't look like there's rust holes or anything. He does say the floor is rusted through in parts.

To my very amateur guessing, outsides of the car being rusty is scary, because that's cosmetic. Floor being rusty is not scary, because I can just patch it by welding some sheet metal on. I can weld, I've never welded on a car, I don't know if my guess is true.

What's especially important to look at when I go to see it, rust-wise, or, anything else-wise. I'm very much not a car-guy so I don't have any car-guy instincts.


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## jbman (Oct 26, 2017)

MattsAwesomeStuff said:


> I meant, suitable as a donor in theory, not, this particular car.
> 
> But, yes, I'm going to go take some pictures when I go look at it, I'll be sure to post them.
> 
> ...


Rusty floor pans can be telling. Where did the water come from? Is the windshield seal bad? Is the cowl rusted through and it's draining inside the car? Was it driven on salty roads in the winter, rusting from the bottom, and there's further damage? What do the inside of the doors look like (behind the door cards)? Wheel wells (inner and outer)? Trunk floor? Frame rails? Pinch welds on the body? It's normal to find nasty rust in many of those places that would render an otherwise fun project a bottomless money pit.

Whatever rust you see is usually the tip of the iceberg.

Additionally, an Opel GT is a unibody car. The floor pans are structural, so it's essential that repairs be properly made. Welding floor pans is not a big deal, necessarily, but anything else on the car can be. It's very easy to warp. Not trying to lecture, as I'm sure you already know, but that's another point against anything that's rusty.

Check for bondo - bring a magnet. There may be gaping rust holes covered with bondo and then painted. A magnet will help you find that.

There are enough cool cars out there - if the rust is anything more than just on the surface (minimal pitting), I'd just walk away. No bubbling paint, no holes, no "patches" by the previous owner. I'd imagine that you're more interested in converting a car to electric, and less interested in fighting cancer.

Just my 2c.


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## MattsAwesomeStuff (Aug 10, 2017)

jbman said:


> Rusty floor pans can be telling. Where did the water come from? Is the windshield seal bad? Is the cowl rusted through and it's draining inside the car? Was it driven on salty roads in the winter, rusting from the bottom, and there's further damage? What do the inside of the doors look like (behind the door cards)? Wheel wells (inner and outer)? Trunk floor? Frame rails? Pinch welds on the body? It's normal to find nasty rust in many of those places that would render an otherwise fun project a bottomless money pit.


Good tips. I'll try to keep that all in mind.



> Welding floor pans is not a big deal, necessarily, but anything else on the car can be.


Yeah, the extent of my experience on bodywork is replacing a rusted through wheel well, and that was only as hard as a sawzall and a junkyard. Even then it never really went back together the same way.



> Check for bondo - bring a magnet. There may be gaping rust holes covered with bondo and then painted. A magnet will help you find that.


Dumb question, but... why would I care?

If they bondo'd over a hole, and I can't tell visually, what's the thing I should be worried about?



> There are enough cool cars out there - if the rust is anything more than just on the surface (minimal pitting), I'd just walk away.


That's my conundrum. I have half-assedly kept an eye on anything cheap and interesting enough that I'd care to convert it. I'm not a fanboy of any particular car. Anything less crappy is going to be more expensive. I probably am not interested in spending enough money on a vehicle that isn't going to need work. Kind of a pick your poison situation.

The thing I've heard most about "cheap" conversions is "I wish I spent more on a vehicle that didn't need as much work". So, I dunno. Maybe I have lower standards than other people. 



> No bubbling paint, no holes, no "patches" by the previous owner. I'd imagine that you're more interested in converting a car to electric, and less interested in fighting cancer.


Indeed, but I'm also cheap and it's not an essential.

This one is certainly going to need to be completely repainted. It's already got whole patches where paint was sanded off, I can only presume 40 year old paint got thin and rusted. I'm okay with that. Holes through the exterior would probably scare me away. Holes on the interior or floorboards make me grouchy but not scared. The things I don't know enough to ask about scare me the most.

Good advice all around, you gave me some particular things to pay attention to.


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

I think that running condition is good, because even though you don't care about the engine, driving it can tell you if it has sound suspension, braking, and steering components that you will want to use.

The Opel GT is a "mini Corvette" in styling (I actually like it better than the corresponding third-generation Corvette), but not in chassis - it has a beam axle rear suspension, similar to the Chevette and other Opel-derived GM models of the era. That's okay, I suppose, but affects what powertrain conversion options are viable.

Anything obscure from this era could be a challenge for parts availability. It is generally similar to the Chevrolet Chevette mechanically, but since the Chevette's T-platform is shared with the Opel Kadett C, and the Opel GT is mechanically based on the one-generation-earlier Kadett B, there might not be any useful interchangeability. Even Chevette parts are probably rare by now.

Since there are no rear seats anyway, it might be possible to mount a pair of battery packs flanking the propeller shaft (driveshaft) under the rear parcel deck, to avoid making an excessively front-heavy car and to fit in enough battery... although it would probably be a substantial bodywork project, and there's little length available due to the short wheelbase.


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

MattsAwesomeStuff said:


> Dumb question, but... why would I care?
> 
> If they bondo'd over a hole, and I can't tell visually, what's the thing I should be worried about?


A hole patched with something (fiberglass?) and covered with filler is a hole which is likely going to continue to rust. The filler will also likely crack and even fall out, so even if it looks good now, it won't likely stay that way. Filler is not structurally useful, so it's no so bad in a fender, but could be scary in more critical locations.


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## x.l.r.8 (Oct 20, 2018)

This is going to be a painful car, a cheap Opel GT!, I did a 1969 once where we had to fit a TVR V8, admittedly we had to have panels repressed and replaced the entire floor and fixed all the chassis rust, the cost was astronomical, the customer didn't care because he wanted that particular car, theres a reason they are so light. I'd done my part but I know the body work was at 20,000 GBP and it hadn't even been painted. This was a car that passed its MOT and was supposed to be a good example. Sure you may get lucky, I'm still waiting to find an original RS200 in a barn for $1000, but unless you really really love this car I would inspect every inch, and be ready to walk. By the way, I love these baby corvettes, my heart would say go for it, but my head having already been there once says look twice, think 3 times, budget 4 times.
I'll see if I can find the pictures, it was 15 years ago now.


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

As this conversion shows, a battery pack location is the behind the axle, where the fuel tank is originally. A bad location for mass dynamically, and bad in a rear-end collision, but you might need the space...


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

Hi Matt
I would say that an Opel GT is a superb car to convert - looks excellent

The only issue would be battery space - it may be better to get it's big brother (a Corvette) simply so that you have room for enough batteries

On that front do analysis on YOUR driving

I found that most of the time I was driving less than 40 km - but on the days that I exceeded 40 km I needed 150 km

So my device was fine with its 40 km range - but I would have needed four times the batteries for the "next step"


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

There is at least one relatively well-known Opel GT conversion which was actually completed:

Opel GT Electric Conversion
EV Album: 1973 Opel GT “Electric”
OpelGT.com: Converting Opel GT to Electric?
Lubbock couple renovate 1973 Opel GT into electric vehicle
That one was "almost rust free" to start. It was built a decade ago, and used typical technology for the time.


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## jbman (Oct 26, 2017)

MattsAwesomeStuff said:


> Good tips. I'll try to keep that all in mind.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


None of my concerns are about cosmetics. Ultimately, Anything cosmetic can be filled, painted, buffed to a shine. Rust will kill your car, and rust that is covered will continue to rust, usually with moisture betting between the rust and the filler, until it all falls off and reveals a gaping hole. In a unibody car, especially with the possibility of more power and a lot more weight, this is a potentially dangerous situation.

I bought a rusty Mustang several years back. Never again. Trust me, don't be that guy unless you just love body work. Making your car look nice for 6 months at a time while it molders underneath body filler that keeps falling off is a painful way to do a project, and doing it right is even more expensive.

I don't know the condition of this Opel, and it really could be OK. If there is any significant rust, though, it is a terrible candidate from the get-go. Additionally, your description of sanded paint sounds a lot more like filled dents or holes. Picture is worth a thousand words, here.

That being said, I would love to drive an e-Opel. That'd be a keen little car.


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

MattsAwesomeStuff said:


> I like building things cheap, I'm not looking for performance, I want something to build without breaking the bank or feeling guilty about wrecking a classic, so, it seems a good fit that way.
> 
> ...
> Doesn't have a hatchback or a trunk, just a weirdly large parcel shelf.


Due to the lack of cargo access, I couldn't tolerate one of these as a daily driver, so it would have to be a performance car for me. Do the characteristics of this car really fit what you want it to do?

While the "don't wreck a classic" reasoning has some validity, I wouldn't worry about it. The world only needs a handful of each significant model preserved, at the most. I'll never be able to afford to buy anything that is worthy of preservation, so if I can buy it, I have no problem with taking it out of the inventory of preserved artifacts.


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## MattsAwesomeStuff (Aug 10, 2017)

Brian said:


> even though you don't care about the engine, driving it can tell you if it has sound suspension, braking, and steering components that you will want to use.


Sadly, I'm not that experienced of a driver. Also I've only ever driven stick on a tractor and that's been 10 years, so, my brain is going to be filled with thoughts of just actually driving. I might be behind the wheel and think everything is fine and there be obvious crap going wrong.

I doubt it's insured, says it's sat for a year. Complicates things. At minimum I'll probably ask the owner to drive it and sit in the passenger seat.



> That's okay, I suppose, but affects what powertrain conversion options are viable.


Howso?

What would I want to do differently back there?



> The filler will also likely crack and even fall out, so even if it looks good now, it won't likely stay that way. Filler is not structurally useful, so it's no so bad in a fender, but could be scary in more critical locations.


Ahh, gotcha.

So, if someone bondo'd the rusted base of the B pillar or something, instead of using actual metal replacement, it's likely a hackjob where they never cleaned out the rust either and it's held on by the unanswered prayers of orphans.



> There is at least one relatively well-known Opel GT conversion which was actually completed:


https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL15AC1C151616A09B <-- I've been making my way through that today already.



> Due to the lack of cargo access, I couldn't tolerate one of these as a daily driver, so it would have to be a performance car for me. Do the characteristics of this car really fit what you want it to do?


I would rather it be a hatchback, and I'm half-tempted to frame one out with square tube and the grind it into existence.

I have a van I need for work occasionally, so, I'll always have that available. Most of my daily stuff is just moving me around. A bicycle was fine for me for a decade of adult life, just a pain in the ass in winter.

I want something that's cheap to drive (electric), small, and moderately fun. I can't think of what vehicle I'd want instead. Something boring like a Mazda hatch or a Golf maybe, but, for the price/value of doing that, I might as well just buy an old Leaf.




> ="x.l.r.8"]look twice, think 3 times, budget 4 times.


I certainly wouldn't be spending 5 figures on panel work. Nor even 4 figures. It's going to look ugly and shitty like a hobo's coat if I'm patching the interior, not something sculpted to be beautiful. And I'm okay with that, somewhat.




Duncan said:


> The only issue would be battery space - it may be better to get it's big brother (a Corvette) simply so that you have room for enough batteries


If I'm working on this, it needs to fit in a 15' garage. A real 'Vette won't. Also, real 'Vettes cost money, even in bad shape. Also, if I had a real 'Vette, I probably would keep the engine.

It's a delicate balance. I want something cheap and sort of crappy enough that I don't feel bad for converting it on a cheap budget. But I don't want something so bad that it costs me more money than spending extra to begin with. 

The good news is that I'll probably be building a pack from 18650s, so I can squeeze battery space into smaller areas than most other form factors would allow.

I probably want something like 100km range. On something tiny like this, it might get 250wh/mile, so, I don't need all that much battery.


[quote="JBMan]Rust will kill your car, and rust that is covered will continue to rust, usually with moisture betting between the rust and the filler, until it all falls off and reveals a gaping hole.[/quote]

I had not even considered that someone would be foolish enough to bondo over a rusted area, without removing the rust first. Naturally if a chop shop is just shoving it out the door, I guess they might.

...

I guess I'll go look at it and try to take a million pictures in the next couple days.

Thanks everyone. I was approaching this with a little too much voting on hope rather than practicality. I'll see just how bad the structural rust is, if any.


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## jbman (Oct 26, 2017)

It's not just a hack job covering rust thing. Metal must be properly prepared and treated, even with filler. Filler is porous, so if it is not properly waterproofed (good paint or whatever, not just primer which is also porous), even a "clean" repair will eventually fail. Body filler on a hole is just cheap, and it's very common on older cars. It's a much bigger deal than you think. Anyway, hope it works out.

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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

brian_ said:


> ... it has a beam axle rear suspension, similar to the Chevette and other Opel-derived GM models of the era. That's okay, I suppose, but affects what powertrain conversion options are viable.





MattsAwesomeStuff said:


> Howso?
> 
> What would I want to do differently back there?


I can't say what you might want to do. 
The option which becomes much more difficult because of the beam axle (rather than independent rear suspension) is placing the motor at the back, such as with a salvaged EV drive unit.

If you keep any kind of beam axle (and if you're keeping that design, you might as well just keep the original axle), the motor needs to be at the end of a shaft. The Opel GT's shaft is in a tube which forms part of the suspension, so the motor output (or the output of any transmission which is used) must be essentially at the stock transmission output.


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## MattsAwesomeStuff (Aug 10, 2017)

brian_ said:


> If you keep any kind of beam axle (and if you're keeping that design, you might as well just keep the original axle), the motor needs to be at the end of a shaft. The Opel GT's shaft is in a tube which forms part of the suspension, so the motor output (or the output of any transmission which is used) must be essentially at the stock transmission output.


Ahh, I hadn't considered replacing it with a standard EV transaxle or somesuch. Did consider altering it to be FWD and doing that though, if there was a suitably-sized front everything I could manage to swap, but I suspect on a vehicle this little, there haven't been any EVs made that could donate. Then I'd be less scared of driving it in the winter. Just an idle thought though.

I'm somewhat contemplating if I need a transmission at all, or if I could direct drive it, putting the motor low and in the rear in what I imagine is under the parcel shelf somewhere. Maybe at only a slightly increased angle into the diff.

Motor is going to weigh more than the batteries I imagine.

The motor I have (not that my heart is set on it, but, I have it, and it was free) is, relatively, gigantic. I think it probably weighs 350lbs, which is 100lbs more than the original engine.










11" dia x 16" long.

AC induction motor. ~25HP 1 hour rating, 36 of 48v IIRC.


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

MattsAwesomeStuff said:


> Ahh, I hadn't considered replacing it with a standard EV transaxle or somesuch. Did consider altering it to be FWD and doing that though, if there was a suitably-sized front everything I could manage to swap, but I suspect on a vehicle this little, there haven't been any EVs made that could donate. Then I'd be less scared of driving it in the winter. Just an idle thought though.


Various drive units would fit in the front, but the Opel GT front suspension and hubs won't work with front wheel drive. If you take everything (drive unit and suspension) from a donor vehicle, the track width would probably be an issue. If you mix and match bits, the Mitsubishi i-MiEV or Smart ForTwo drive units might be the smallest.

Front wheel drive might not be better in winter. Front-heavy rear wheel drive vehicles are problematic, but as long as the weight distribution is relatively even, rear wheel drive is actually easier to control.



MattsAwesomeStuff said:


> I'm somewhat contemplating if I need a transmission at all, or if I could direct drive it, putting the motor low and in the rear in what I imagine is under the parcel shelf somewhere. Maybe at only a slightly increased angle into the diff.


You could put the motor where the transmission is now, but you can't put it much further back because of that non-independent suspension. The axle moves up and down with suspension travel, but the motor doesn't, so there must be a jointed shaft between them of reasonable length. Even if you change the suspension to not need the tube which the shaft runs in, there still needs to be some shaft length.

This photo shows some of the axle and suspension components, including the propeller shaft (or driveshaft, item #2) and the torque tube (item #4) which surrounds it (when installed) and controls the axle.









In the photo below, see the joint right in the middle, midway between the transmission and the axle, at the driver's hip (with the little arrow pointing to it)? That's the bearing and joint which is fixed to the structure, with the shaft portion behind it running in the tube which controls the rear axle.


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

If you can provide enough voltage for that motor to maintain power at high enough speed to allow use without a multi-speed transmission, and it can work that the speeds resulting from the rear axle reduction ratio, and can fit it in the transmission space, then you can put a battery pack in the front... but the car will be problematically front-heavy. More likely, you end up with it in place of the motor, like Rickman did; in that case, almost all of the battery must end up in the back.



MattsAwesomeStuff said:


> I probably want something like 100km range. On something tiny like this, it might get 250wh/mile, so, I don't need all that much battery.





MattsAwesomeStuff said:


> Motor is going to weigh more than the batteries I imagine.
> 
> The motor I have (not that my heart is set on it, but, I have it, and it was free) is, relatively, gigantic. I think it probably weighs 350lbs, which is 100lbs more than the original engine.


100 km at 155 Wh/km is 15.5 kWh... or an entire battery pack from a typical plug-in hybrid (such as a Chevrolet Volt or Chrysler Pacifica). That's substantially heavier than even that lump of motor.

If the cargo shelf is long enough (it goes all the way from the seats to the tail), and you can give up the cargo space, then perhaps a battery pack like Duncan's (two rows of Volt modules side-by-side) would fit (but with a housing, please, since it would be in the passenger compartment).


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## MattsAwesomeStuff (Aug 10, 2017)

brian_ said:


> Even if you change the suspension to not need the tube which the shaft runs in, there still needs to be some shaft length.


Ahh, I'd thought of everything else except this. Obviously the shaft needs to stretch and shrink during suspension travel, more-and-more-so the shorter the shaft is and the higher the magnitude of travel towards or away from the axle (90 degrees to vertical would be ideal, less so at a 20-30' pitch).



> More likely, you end up with it in place of the motor, like Rickman did; in that case, almost all of the battery must end up in the back.


I'd rather motor in the back (where it never gets touched), and batteries in the front (which will need to be periodically inspected. Oh well.



> 100 km at 155 Wh/km is 15.5 kWh... or an entire battery pack from a typical plug-in hybrid (such as a Chevrolet Volt or Chrysler Pacifica). That's substantially heavier than even that lump of motor.


Not that I'm using Tesla packs, but Tesla packs are 209 Wh/kg = 74kg, or 165 lbs.

Motor is somewhere abouts 300.

My bare 18650 cells are at least near that ballpark for that amount, though I have to add all the framing, connections, wiring, racking, etc to them.


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

MattsAwesomeStuff said:


> Not that I'm using Tesla packs, but Tesla packs are 209 Wh/kg = 74kg, or 165 lbs.


If a full 85 kWh battery is 540 kg, then 15.5 kWh would be 99 kg or 218 pounds, so 74 kg looks like a bare module weight, without any interconnections or housing. And that would be three modules, so only 67.5 V (nominal). To use Tesla Model S/X modules for about this capacity they would need to be modified to a 12S configuration, and even then the nominal voltage would only be 135 volts. Maybe 4 modules, modified, for 180 volts? But you're not using Tesla modules...

For another weight reference, a full set (six) of Chrysler Pacifica modules would provide 360 V, or 180 V, or 120 V, and would only weigh about 100 kg (228 lb)... but that's without the thermal management base or housing. The Volt modules look heavy because they might be a generation old, because they are optimized for power density rather than energy density, and because part of that optimization is an extensive internal liquid cooling/heating system.


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

Hi Matt

Just a wee thought
For $1500 I would probably buy that car and if it is badly rusty try and get another!

They are not very common and would make an excellent EV -


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## MattsAwesomeStuff (Aug 10, 2017)

Duncan said:


> For $1500 I would probably buy that car and if it is badly rusty try and get another!


What am I going to do with 2 cars that are too rusted to use?

Wait, I know... buy a third.

'Cause, when you have 3 of something, you're a collector!


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## MattsAwesomeStuff (Aug 10, 2017)

Whelp..

Week-old ad, had no attention. Guy said to come see in the morning tommorow. Called him to confirm, now says he's got a deal on it already.

Easy come easy go.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=psZXyooc-AI


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## Hollie Maea (Dec 9, 2009)

I have a 1970 Opel GT that I have been "working" on converting for many years. It's going slow since I rarely have time and money at the same time, but I have put quite a bit of thought into it. I think it is an excellent donor in general. Someone mentioned the concern about a lack of battery space. However, there is a lot of space right behind the seats, right over the rear axle, that isn't good for anything else and could hold a good chunk of your battery pack. GTs are known for being too light in the rear, so it should actually make it handle better. You'll probably still want to put some of the battery pack up front, but there is some decent room under the hood. I'm planning around a 35kWh pack and probably will put around 2/3 of that in the back.

It IS a very small car. Smaller than it looks. It's hard to imagine a Tesla transaxle fitting back there but who knows. I'm personally planning to use a Leaf motor. I will have to get a transmission, since mine came with an automatic which I don't want. Opel GT transmissions are hard to come by so I'll use something else, probably an old GM 4 speed.

I hope you get the car. They are really great.


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## MattsAwesomeStuff (Aug 10, 2017)

> I hope you get the car. They are really great.


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## Hollie Maea (Dec 9, 2009)

Yeah I saw after I posted that it was gone. Keep your eyes open though...I decided that was the car I wanted to convert so I just checked Craigslist till I found one!


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

Hollie Maea said:


> I have a 1970 Opel GT that I have been "working" on converting for many years.
> ...
> Someone mentioned the concern about a lack of battery space. However, there is a lot of space right behind the seats, right over the rear axle, that isn't good for anything else and could hold a good chunk of your battery pack. GTs are known for being too light in the rear, so it should actually make it handle better.


It looks like the main cargo shelf is ahead of the axle, with a step up from that to the space over and behind the axle, usually used for the spare tire.

The cargo shelf space isn't used for anything else, but only assuming that you don't have anything which would normally go in a trunk. I agree that much of the battery weight should be in the rear (if there is a hefty motor in the front), and that area behind the seats to just ahead of the axle is in an ideal place front-to-rear; however, that's pretty high, especially for a narrow-track car.

Maybe a viable approach would be to use Matt's idea of modifying the body for trunk access (although for structure and complexity reasons only a trunk lid, not a hatch), combined with a deep trunk consisting of the spare tire space plus the fuel tank space below it, and with one layer of battery modules in a box filling the cargo shelf area.


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## MattsAwesomeStuff (Aug 10, 2017)

Look at how cute she was


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## jbman (Oct 26, 2017)

MattsAwesomeStuff said:


> Look at how cute she was


The rocker appears rusted out. There are more out there! Where are you located?

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## MattsAwesomeStuff (Aug 10, 2017)

jbman said:


> The rocker appears rusted out. There are more out there! Where are you located?


Western Canada.

Literally zero for sale west of Ontario.

$1-3k is kinda my budget, so, not many that thread the needle between worth working on and worth buying.

Oh well, I've half-assedly looked for something for 2 years already, no urgency, it's a 'round-to-it project.


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## jbman (Oct 26, 2017)

MattsAwesomeStuff said:


> Western Canada.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Ah, I see! I would be of less than no help searching, then.

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## MattsAwesomeStuff (Aug 10, 2017)

Minor progress just for those that like to follow a story. It's probably boring to some of you more familiar with cars.

Found an Option #2 that didn't pan out.

Guy wanted $3500 for it.

Good:
- All glass intact.
- All parts there, except gascap.
- Chrome is good.
- Wheels are good.

Bad:
- Says 6 years ago he got the engine to turn over with battery, squirted fuel into the carbs, it "wanted to" but he figures it needed a fuel pump.
- He's not sure if the engine is the original or the right type of engine. I can't imagine after 6 years of having the vehicle he's never looked into that, so, I'm interpreting "I don't know" as "I do know and it's not but maybe you won't."
- He doesn't know at all how many miles are on it (why?)
- Rust on the front quarterpanel and front fender.
- Hole in the rust between wheelwheel and door.
- Rust spots on some of the rest of car, honestly not too too bad but bad enough it needs full sanding and a new paintjob, so, doesn't matter between 20% good and 95% good, still needs a full sand and paint.
- Headliner might be salvageable, it's in okay condition.
- Seats are trashed. One seat could maybe be fixed but the other is garbage.
- Google street-view shows it parked there at least 3 years uncovered outside in a weedy alley (I presume all 6 years), and rust would only have become worse from the pics I've seen. The pic he had was at least from last summer, if not years ago (no snow). Actually looked newer in his ad than it did in 3 year old streetview, I suspect the photo in the ad is from the day he first bought it home.

Told the gentleman I think he's asking too high for a non-running car with rust holes needing a full interior. That I thought the fair price would be somewhere between $1000-2000 depending on the severity of the rust when I look in person. He said we were too far apart for that to be worth his time. It's been up for sale for a month.

Guys in the Opel community told me I was nuts thinking of anything north of $1000.

...

Option #3 - A triple barn find, sadly, Dead Grandpa Sale. Off in Arizona. Two guys want two of them, but there's one without an engine or trans, which would be cheap, and no one wants. If we work out a group buy I might dolly it back home.

I'm not certain if I want to keep a transmission or not. The car is only 2000 lbs. Tempting to skip.

...

Option #4 - Someone started an EV conversion a few years ago on a junker, and has now bought a nicer one. He's not going to bother with the conversion, keeping it gas powered, so, he was going to pull some parts and then junk the rest. He said he'd sell it to me instead, cheap. Like "I was about to throw it away, give me something for the few parts I'd have bothered to part out first" kind of cheap I suspect.

I like cheap.

I don't really need his EV stuff (has a Warp 9 and is pre-mated to some non-Opel tranny, adapter plate and all, that in the circle of life he inherited from someone else's aborted EV conversion). I was hoping to go AC since I already have the AC forklift motor. But it likely needs a fair bit of rust work, (dreaded rocker panels), and maybe has some light collision damage on the doors. I could just swap out doors from parts cars, there's some local to me guys will let me vulture for market value of the parts.

...

So now I kind of have to decide the age old question: Nice, or Cheap?

...

And then, in the way that an idle mind starts thinking that enough is not enough, I started thinking about what Brian said and it having a live axle rear suspension, and then reading through mods converting them to IRS from BWMs, or, doing a full body transplant onto a 90s Miata frame and suspension, and so on. And now I'm thinking "Oh, a half-dozen people with more time, money, and experience than me have failed to finish those types of projects, that sounds exciting, I can be one of those failures!"

I have some friends that own Miatas so, 20 year vs. 50 years tech makes me feel inadequate unless I upgrade.

Anyway, that's where it stands so far.

My ideal conversion would be a Lotus Elise, but since those aren't available, even with a blown engine, in my price range, I'm becoming more and more settled on finding an Opel GT.


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

MattsAwesomeStuff said:


> Guys in the Opel community told me I was nuts thinking of anything north of $1000.


It is truly a miracle of the internet age that there is a whole "community" of people who are into obscure old Opels. 



MattsAwesomeStuff said:


> ... there's one without an engine or trans, which would be cheap, and no one wants. If we work out a group buy I might dolly it back home.
> 
> I'm not certain if I want to keep a transmission or not. The car is only 2000 lbs. Tempting to skip.
> 
> ...


So one option doesn't come with a transmission, and another option likely wouldn't. Even if you use a conventional transmission, it doesn't need to be the one which originally came in the Opel GT. The original is the easiest for mounting, getting the shifter to end up in the right place, and working with the clutch pedal (if used); on the other hand, lots of people seem to swap to an unrelated transmission, and it might make sense to use something more common (here) than whatever came in an Opel GT anyway. 



MattsAwesomeStuff said:


> And then, in the way that an idle mind starts thinking that enough is not enough, I started thinking about what Brian said and it having a live axle rear suspension, and then reading through mods converting them to IRS from BWMs, or, doing a full body transplant onto a 90s Miata frame and suspension, and so on. And now I'm thinking "Oh, a half-dozen people with more time, money, and experience than me have failed to finish those types of projects, that sounds exciting, I can be one of those failures!"






MattsAwesomeStuff said:


> I have some friends that own Miatas so, 20 year vs. 50 years tech makes me feel inadequate unless I upgrade.


One thing that I find amusing is that almost all (perhaps all) kits and projects which use Miata components - not those that actually use the Miata body - use the NA/NB chassis... which itself is now three decades old. Once the use of the NA/NB stuff was worked out, people don't seem interested in starting all over again with the more advanced design of the NC or similar ND bits. "Where do you stop" is not a simple question.



MattsAwesomeStuff said:


> My ideal conversion would be a Lotus Elise, but since those aren't available, even with a blown engine, in my price range, I'm becoming more and more settled on finding an Opel GT.


You could do a Lotus Elan - the original Miata is considered by many to be Mazda's version of the Elan. On the other hand, the one guy I know who had an Elan and ran it in autoslalom competition was only a bit surprised when a door fell completely off of the car as he turned a corner... the Lotus of Chapman's era was never very concerned with details like body integrity or quality.


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

Hi Matt
Why not a Locost type like mine (but prettier)?

Because you don't have a complex body and doors to de-rust and paint you can make something a lot better and cheaper

Don't do what I did - the Subaru rear suspension is GREAT - but find something with twin wishbones for the front - the Subaru Strut system works very well but with a twin wishbone setup you can use the simpler and better front end body


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## MattsAwesomeStuff (Aug 10, 2017)

brian_ said:


> It is truly a miracle of the internet age that there is a whole "community" of people who are into obscure old Opels.


It's an old community, 20 years. And 3 or 4 times as active as us here.

It's weird, you come across stuff people said, talking about how they're in their mid 30s and realize, by the time you're reading it, that guy got married, had a kid, and his kid has already grown up and left the house, and the original guy is 55 years old now.

More conveniently to me, there's a local group of owners who buy up barn-finds and rusted hulks they can find for $100 or so, strip them, sort the parts, and have spreadsheets of average prices for the components for people in the group to buy. There's equivalently a non-profit Ebay worth of local, sorted parts.

Most conveniently to me... I already know one of these people and I've been to his ranch where he stores said parts in a barn of his own, without knowing that's what was in there. In 7 years of bi-monthly chats it's never come up in conversation that he had any of this. Complete coincidence. Of course, these things weren't ever popular and stopped being sold before I was born, so I hadn't even heard of this brand until like, a month ago. It's possible the conversation became "car talk" and, barely able to tell a Pinto from a Pomeranian I tuned out.



> it might make sense to use something more common (here) than whatever came in an Opel GT anyway.


I think that was the plan for the current, 2nd generation owner.



> "Where do you stop" is not a simple question.


This is why I've never bought a computer.

I have old hand-me-downs from friend's 3rd rigs.

I start shopping for a new one, and I say "Well anything is better than what I've got, let's just go for something minimal". And then I start saying "Well, it's not much extra, might as well add...". And then "Well if I'm doing that, no point in being limited by this, upgrade that...". And then "It'd really be a waste if I do this and then regret not having something comparable to take advantage of that." And so on, until I'm spending $2000 on a computer that started out $300 and no single step seems to be the one that pushed it that far. Then I say "I'm not spending $2000 on a computer, that's ridiculous" and keep using the hand-me-down until some friend upgrades and bumps his worst down the line.



> You could do a Lotus Elan


Nope, too ugly. The only Lotus' I like are the Elise, Exige, and Evora. But even the Elise starts at $30k used. I would have picked a Miata directly, but I can't stand how they look. I like the fun, small, light, sporty, good handling aspect, but it's like meeting a girl with a good personality. What I really want is to put her personality inside the girl I can't stand but can't stop looking at. With people this is difficult, but with cars it's, umm, still difficult.


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## MattsAwesomeStuff (Aug 10, 2017)

> Why not a Locost type


I already lack car knowledge and have trouble choosing things. Stop distracting me with new options .

I seem to recall looking at Super 7s last year, and it basically ruled out 95% of insurance companies.

They're cute but they're a little too custom and not practical enough for me.

Also, Canadian winters.


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

*Elan?*



MattsAwesomeStuff said:


> Nope, too ugly. The only Lotus' I like are the Elise, Exige, and Evora. But even the Elise starts at $30k used. I would have picked a Miata directly, but I can't stand how they look.


At first I thought that you misunderstood and were picturing a Europa (nice in front, insanely awkward in the back), since I've never heard of anyone who doesn't like the Elan... but then you don't like the original Miata. 

Lotus cars are not an improvement over the Opel GT in availability, although the construction of their backbone-and-fiberglass era does have the advantage of less rust. Not zero rust: there is a good reason that there are complete replacement backbone chassis available for some models.  And if you think that the Opel's outdated beam axle is a concern, check out the rubber doughnut drive joints and axle-as-control-arm designs found in various Lotus models!


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

MattsAwesomeStuff said:


> I seem to recall looking at Super 7s last year, and it basically ruled out 95% of insurance companies.
> 
> They're cute but they're a little too custom and not practical enough for me.
> 
> Also, Canadian winters.


Yes, there are both good reasons to use a "Sevenesque" design, and good reasons that they are very uncommon here.


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