# [EVDL] Battery Terminal Selection



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

I like the large L type. Others who run very high currents seem to like 
standard automotive terminals as they have more square area in contact with 
the connector.

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Josh Wyatt wrote:
> > Greetings all,
> >
> > I'm planning on using 8 volt floodies for my conversion (120 volt nominal), probably a T-890, or US BAttery US 8VGC or 8VGCHC, and I'm trying to pick the best terminal.
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Hello Josh,

I prefer the large L terminal that U.S. Battery has. Do not use the small L 
terminal. I use the small L terminal one time, and they do not have enough 
surface area. The large L type provides a flat buss bar surface that will 
contact a Heavy Duty cable terminal pad that is about 1 inch square and can 
be torque to a much higher than any of the other type of post.

My T-145's came with the low profile battery terminal with a stud and must 
of them started to pull out, even at 75 inch pounds. The specs. said 95-105 
in.lbs but I started to pull them out at that reading. Had to use all 
positive clamp on type of battery connection that barely was able to get 
over the pad diameter. I did bolted my existing links to a 3/8 inch threw 
bolt on the battery clamp.

My next battery terminal will be the Large L type. A EV'er in this area use 
the U.S. 8 volt batteries with the large L type, which work out better than 
what I have.

I did not look up the torque rating of these L buss bars type of battery 
connections, but it must be over 120 in.lbs. The torque rating for a 3/8 
inch grade 5 bolt is 35 foot lbs on a copper buss bar, so this lead type of 
connection using a back up saddle washer, should at least be 120 in.lbs or 
10 foot lbs.

Roland


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Josh Wyatt" <[email protected]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, August 07, 2008 11:15 AM
Subject: [EVDL] Battery Terminal Selection


> Greetings all,
>
> I'm planning on using 8 volt floodies for my conversion (120 volt 
> nominal), probably a T-890, or US BAttery US 8VGC or 8VGCHC, and I'm 
> trying to pick the best terminal.
>
> Researching the archives, it appears that the wing nut or threaded stud 
> type terminals are the least desirable, while the SAE automotive-type post 
> with corresponding clamp terminals may be the best for high current.
>
> But, how about these L-type terminals, like the large "L" and small "L" on 
> this page:
> http://www.usbattery.com/usb_terminals.html
>
> Or cone-type with flats and a hole through it, sometimes called 
> "Universal" (Trojan) or "Offset S" (USB), which is the "Off-set S" type on 
> this page:
> http://www.usbattery.com/usb_terminals.html
>
> For some reason, my brain is preferring the through-hole type approach... 
> Even though obviously the automotive type has proven reliability.
>
> Thanks in advance,
> Josh
>
> _______________________________________________
> General EVDL support: http://evdl.org/help/
> Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
> Archives: http://evdl.org/archive/
> Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>
> 

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

I've got the L style but I think an advantage of regular automotive 
terminals is that your connector cable can come at the post from ANY 
direction. That would have been useful in my application.

I also recall folks here saying that in terms of contact area the 
auto posts are the best. The down side as I see it is the terminals 
are more expensive.

John in Ma





> Josh Wyatt wrote:
> 
> > Greetings all,
> >
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Hello Josh,
I use the "U" (bolt hole through the post) terminal on my Trojan T-145s. I 
am reliably pulling 550 Amps during acceleration and hill climbing with 
these posts (with well-crimped cable-to-lug terminations). After 12 months 
and 3000 miles I've not had any bad experience, but I do recheck my 
terminals periodically just to make sure nothing is getting loose. I hear 
that the standard automotive posts may carry slightly more current. But I 
didn't like the bulkyness of the automotive terminal.
Regards,
Randy Richmond
www.evalbum.com/1253


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Josh Wyatt" <[email protected]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, August 07, 2008 10:15 AM
Subject: [EVDL] Battery Terminal Selection


> Greetings all,
>
> I'm planning on using 8 volt floodies for my conversion (120 volt 
> nominal), probably a T-890, or US BAttery US 8VGC or 8VGCHC, and I'm 
> trying to pick the best terminal.
>
> Researching the archives, it appears that the wing nut or threaded stud 
> type terminals are the least desirable, while the SAE automotive-type post 
> with corresponding clamp terminals may be the best for high current.
>
> But, how about these L-type terminals, like the large "L" and small "L" on 
> this page:
> http://www.usbattery.com/usb_terminals.html
>
> Or cone-type with flats and a hole through it, sometimes called 
> "Universal" (Trojan) or "Offset S" (USB), which is the "Off-set S" type on 
> this page:
> http://www.usbattery.com/usb_terminals.html
>
> For some reason, my brain is preferring the through-hole type approach... 
> Even though obviously the automotive type has proven reliability.
>
> Thanks in advance,
> Josh
>
> _______________________________________________
> General EVDL support: http://evdl.org/help/
> Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
> Archives: http://evdl.org/archive/
> Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>
> 

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Josh and All,
In a later post on this thread, you mentioned that you have already decided on the L posts, 
but in case you have not ordered batteries yet, I wanted to chime in. 
I've been running automotive SAE posts from day one, and have never, ever, ever, ever... had a loose connection. And although I started with floodies, I knew one day that I would be running AGM's and 1000 or more amps, and since you are talking about a serious investment in 2/0 wire and terminals 
(over 50 feet of wire in the S10!), I always suggest going with the SAE terminals from the get go.
Also, what vehicle are you converting? I really hated the 8V floodies because of the voltage sag and short life, and my recommendation is not overloading a car with 6V floodies either, but instead using a
much more fun battery like the AGM's, especially in a sporty car. And again, for longer battery life, the key is opportunity charging. 
Hope this helps,
Suck Amps...
50,000 plus pure eelectric miles on the buggies, and a countin',
Dave (B.B.) Hawkins
Member of the Denver Electric Vehicle Council:
http://www.devc.info/
Card carrying member and former racer with The National Electric Drag Racing
Association:
http://www.nedra.com/
Lyons, Colorado
1979 Mazda RX-7 EV (192V of Orbs that raised the two teenagers)
1989 GM (General Murderers of the pure EV1) S10 (144V of floodies, for Pa only!)
2004 Toyota Prius (for Ma, and Pa if Ma is a supervising!)

>Date: Thu, 07 Aug 2008 13:15:56 -0400
>From: Josh Wyatt 
>
>Greetings all,
>
>I'm planning on using 8 volt floodies for my conversion (120 volt nominal), probably a T-890, or US BAttery US 8VGC or 8VGCHC, and I'm trying to pick the best terminal.
>
>Researching the archives, it appears that the wing nut or threaded stud type terminals are the least desirable, while the SAE automotive-type post with corresponding clamp terminals may be the best for high current.
>
>But, how about these L-type terminals, like the large "L" and small "L" on this page:
>http://www.usbattery.com/usb_terminals.html
>
>Or cone-type with flats and a hole through it, sometimes called "Universal" (Trojan) or "Offset S" (USB), which is the "Off-set S" type on this page:
>http://www.usbattery.com/usb_terminals.html
>
>For some reason, my brain is preferring the through-hole type approach... Even though obviously the automotive type has proven reliability.
>
>Thanks in advance,
>Josh

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Hi Josh;

If you can stand another post from Yours Truly, sorta in English, here? 
IF I may say something about posts? Go for the SAE type if you actually have 
a choice? The large and small "L" type are nice, too. But the UTL ones are 
too common, nowadaze! Last night , I was TRYING to salvage a used T-145 
battery, just broke the UTL thing off with a pair of pliers! Ground down the 
"stub" with a sander, but couldn't recast a new one as the base, was SMALLER 
than the older batteries!! My mold was too loose! Finally after looking for 
SOMETHING I could do, dug up a 1/2" copper pipe union, heated it up with a 
torch to "sink" it into the remains of the post, filled it with lead, and 
let it go at that. A crude "post" but it was something the car's terminal 
could be hammered onto and tightened.Yeah! Crude looking , but better than 
throwing away a T 145! I guess I'll have to have my machinist make me a new 
set of post molds with a smaller base for the $%^&*" New" style UTL posts? 
They HAVE to fit, snug, on the base, or what is left, after you snap the 
terminal off? If not your molten lead will flow out burning holes in the 
plastic battery top! It sure is a pleasure watching a real battery pro cast 
new posts on a battery!! EVen worth PAYING him for his expertise!

My two posts worth!

Bob
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Roland Wiench" <[email protected]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, August 07, 2008 2:22 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Battery Terminal Selection


> Hello Josh,
>
> I prefer the large L terminal that U.S. Battery has. Do not use the small 
> L terminal. I use the small L terminal one time, and they do not have 
> enough surface area. The large L type provides a flat buss bar surface 
> that will contact a Heavy Duty cable terminal pad that is about 1 inch 
> square and can be torque to a much higher than any of the other type of 
> post.
>
> My T-145's came with the low profile battery terminal with a stud and must 
> of them started to pull out, even at 75 inch pounds. The specs. said 
> 95-105 in.lbs but I started to pull them out at that reading. Had to use 
> all positive clamp on type of battery connection that barely was able to 
> get over the pad diameter. I did bolted my existing links to a 3/8 inch 
> threw bolt on the battery clamp.
>
> My next battery terminal will be the Large L type. A EV'er in this area 
> use the U.S. 8 volt batteries with the large L type, which work out better 
> than what I have.
>
> I did not look up the torque rating of these L buss bars type of battery 
> connections, but it must be over 120 in.lbs. The torque rating for a 3/8 
> inch grade 5 bolt is 35 foot lbs on a copper buss bar, so this lead type 
> of connection using a back up saddle washer, should at least be 120 in.lbs 
> or 10 foot lbs.
>
> Roland
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Josh Wyatt" <[email protected]>
> To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
> Sent: Thursday, August 07, 2008 11:15 AM
> Subject: [EVDL] Battery Terminal Selection
>
>
>> Greetings all,
>>
>> I'm planning on using 8 volt floodies for my conversion (120 volt 
>> nominal), probably a T-890, or US BAttery US 8VGC or 8VGCHC, and I'm 
>> trying to pick the best terminal.
>>
>> Researching the archives, it appears that the wing nut or threaded stud 
>> type terminals are the least desirable, while the SAE automotive-type 
>> post with corresponding clamp terminals may be the best for high current.
>>
>> But, how about these L-type terminals, like the large "L" and small "L" 
>> on this page:
>> http://www.usbattery.com/usb_terminals.html
>>
>> Or cone-type with flats and a hole through it, sometimes called 
>> "Universal" (Trojan) or "Offset S" (USB), which is the "Off-set S" type 
>> on this page:
>> http://www.usbattery.com/usb_terminals.html
>>
>> For some reason, my brain is preferring the through-hole type approach... 
>> Even though obviously the automotive type has proven reliability.
>>
>> Thanks in advance,
>> Josh
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> General EVDL support: http://evdl.org/help/
>> Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
>> Archives: http://evdl.org/archive/
>> Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>>
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> General EVDL support: http://evdl.org/help/
> Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
> Archives: http://evdl.org/archive/
> Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
> 

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

>Go for the SAE type if you actually have a choice?

Where does one get a good quality cable end then? I definitely don't
want to use the ones found in the typical auto store with a couple of
screws to hold the cable. I would think the press fit/crimp-on ones
would be better.

-- 
David D. Nelson

http://evalbum.com/1328

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

I've always had trouble with automotive type terminals coming loose and
melting off under relatively low currents (on my ICE vehicles, not even an
EV) but that was for the crappy ends that you are describing. I just
recently saw some good ones in a battery store -- 4/0 and 2/0 cables with
factory molded on automotive post terminals -- now that could actually work
better than a golf cart post type terminal I guess. You won't find these in
an auto parts store, but need to find a store that sells batteries for
forklifts and golfcarts and such. Hensley Battery is where I was.

Z



> David Nelson <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> > >Go for the SAE type if you actually have a choice?
> >
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Hello David,

I got my battery clamps and terminal lugs from a auto parts store and they 
were the very heavy duty type zinc plated copper type. These stores may not 
stock them, but have them show you there battery accessory book, and look at 
the different types there are.

Use the double crimp on ones, where the barrel has two guild marks for 
crimping. Do not get the ones that have a relief hole at the clamp or pad 
end. These are use for solder type. You want a totally enclosed type.

In crimping these type, the two crimp type you crimp at the wire end first 
and than at the clamp end second, because in some case the clamp end is 
taper down and if you did not push the wires in tight, crimp at the clamp 
end first may push the cable out some.

When we crimp the long barrel type, that has three crimp guilds, we crimp 
the center first and then the two ends on the barrel.

It is best to use about 2 inch length of heavy duty heat shrink that has the 
sealant in it. This seals the crimp and wire connection from any corrosion.

It sometimes best to know what the lay out of the battery post are on the 
batteries. In the old days, we could do what you call straight line 
connections of the battery links. The fill caps are separate and the 
battery pad is offset enough so the allow the links to go straight from one 
post to the other.

The latter batteries do not have the offset clearance, so you had to install 
the battery clamps at a angle on some batteries. It would bend better for 
me, if I had order some of the battery clamps that have 90 degrees to the 
left and 90 degrees to the right that connect my Trojan batteries that are 
place side to side. The straight battery clamps work on batteries that are 
place end to end.

It is also best to order batteries that have the same production date on 
them and no older then 2 to 3 weeks old. They come to the dealer in a 
pallet load of 40 or 50.

You also want to have a match set in the date and voltage. The voltage 
should not be more than 0.01 volt of each other. Try to get all the them at 
the same voltage of 0.009 of each other.

I got my Trojans deliver right to my house on the battery truck and I pick 
out 30 out of 50 batteries that were only 2 weeks old that 28 of them read 
6.337 volts and 2 of them read 6.338 volts which was only a difference of 
0.001 between them. Some volt meters may read this as 6.33 and 6.34 on some 
scales.

NAPA has the heavy duty battery clamps and wire lugs, but I get mind a 
independent auto parts and repair store that I been here since the 30's. 
These type of stores can get any thing you want in any brand you want. My 
HD terminal lugs which has a 3/16 inch thick by about 1 square inch pad cost 
me $2.50 each back in 2002.

I also got the wire there too. There is three voltage ratings. They will 
normally stock the low voltage rating which is about 50 volts, but there is 
also 300 volt and 600 volt rating too.

Also there is three thickness of cable insulation. If you are dragging 
these type of welding cable over the ground, then the insulation is thicker 
and a 2/0 cable will be about 1-inch in diameter. In chassis work, will you 
can tie the cables down and are enclose, you can use the thin insulation 
one. For expose cables which run through the car, I will use the medium 
size one which is about 3/4 inch diameter.

Roland




----- Original Message ----- 
From: "David Nelson" <[email protected]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Sunday, August 10, 2008 11:56 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Battery Terminal Selection


> >Go for the SAE type if you actually have a choice?
>
> Where does one get a good quality cable end then? I definitely don't
> want to use the ones found in the typical auto store with a couple of
> screws to hold the cable. I would think the press fit/crimp-on ones
> would be better.
>
> -- 
> David D. Nelson
>
> http://evalbum.com/1328
>
> _______________________________________________
> General EVDL support: http://evdl.org/help/
> Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
> Archives: http://evdl.org/archive/
> Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>
> 

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

We've discussed this recently - try www.delcity.net They have copper crimp 
on terminals at a reasonable price, as well as other shrink tubing, fuse 
blocks, etc. They also have starter cables already made up that would work 
for smaller, low voltage EV's (motorcycles, tractors, NEV's, etc.).

Joseph H. Strubhar

Web: www.gremcoinc.com

E-mail: [email protected]
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "David Nelson" <[email protected]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Sunday, August 10, 2008 10:56 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Battery Terminal Selection


> >Go for the SAE type if you actually have a choice?
>
> Where does one get a good quality cable end then? I definitely don't
> want to use the ones found in the typical auto store with a couple of
> screws to hold the cable. I would think the press fit/crimp-on ones
> would be better.
>
> -- 
> David D. Nelson
>
> http://evalbum.com/1328
>
> _______________________________________________
> General EVDL support: http://evdl.org/help/
> Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
> Archives: http://evdl.org/archive/
> Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>
>
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
> Version: 8.0.138 / Virus Database: 270.6.0/1603 - Release Date: 8/10/2008 
> 6:13 PM
>
>
> 

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Hi Dave, Zeke, an' EVerybody;

No, you DON'T want those crappy auto store jobs with the 2 1/4" -20 
setscrews! Maybe, to get you home in a pinch? Check out outfits like Del 
City, in Milwaukee. WI. They have a hellova catalogue on line, and you can 
wander through a lovely selection of battery terminals. #2 and #3 ought 
sizes, I like #3 for my # 2 ought cable for there is room to stuff in all 
the frizzies, from a rough cut#2 cable, and leaves room to solder everything 
together. I don't want to start another solder/ crimp, which- is- better 
argument, on here. Most of the EV's running around in MY area are soldered 
connections, lovingly soldered together with my Acy. Torch. No issues yet. 
As I remember the Del City ones were about 2 bux and change, EACH, Poz and 
Neg (there IS a difference!) They ship in a few daze. I'm a happy camper 
with them, no connection, bad pun, with Del City, just a satisfied user. 
They come all tinned, clean, ready to solder to. I THINK they are cast 
bronze, underneith? IF they don't get banged, up they resist corrosion. 
The No-Cro rings, those purple things, work well, get those at NAPA or 
Auto Zone? ANY battery place will have them, by the can full! All the 
above will take care of the oozing green stuff. Well you SHOULD hose down 
yur traction batteries every few weeks, anyhow? For doing Show and Tell, at 
least? And fix yur oil drippies from the tranny, too! EV's BIG selling 
point is they are clean, anyhow! I re-seal that before putting the drive 
train together, while it is on the bench. Chances are you will go with 
lighter tranny oil to keep the rolling resistance down? So your seals HAVE 
to be good! Running ATF in my VW transaxle, there IS a difference, the 
transaxle runs cooler.

Seeya

Bob> 

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Josh,

If you don't abuse your floodies then the terminal type isn't super 
critical. I've used the UT (universal terminal - the automotive post with 
the flat sides and thru-hole) with both lugs and 1" bus bar - 10,000 miles 
with a 400A battery current limit.

I recently switched to all lugs and the newer threaded stud found on 
Trojan T105 Plus batteries. 1,500 miles and counting. I know i'm not the 
only one on this list currently using threaded studs...

Another local EVer has used the L posts and the older (less secure) 
threaded studs with no issues on a 108V VW. His car has been running 
strong for 12+ years now!

If you plan on pulling more than 300A on a regular basis then I'd 
definitely use automotive posts. But if that's the case, your floodies 
will probably die before the terminals do. I believe the vast majority of 
melted posts are caused by not periodically checking to make sure the 
connections are still snug.

-Adrian



> Josh Wyatt wrote:
> 
> > Greetings all,
> >
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

David and All,
When I first got into EV's, and resurrected the RX-7, I needed a
couple of cables to replace the corroded ones, and found out
that a truck shop in a neighboring town could make them. They
had good quality 2/0 wire and lugs. Later, when I converted the
S10, I bought a crimper from Hensley Battery that Zeke mentioned.
I also bought Magna Lugs made by Quick Cable, which you can get
from you friendly EV supply house. Check 'em at:
http://www.quickcable.com/
As Roland mentioned, this are double crimp style, and are a heavy duty, 
high quality lug (ring for motor and controller, and SAE automotive
for battery posts). Hope this helps...
Suck Amps,
50,000 plus pure eelectric miles on the buggies, and a countin',
Dave (B.B.) Hawkins
Member of the Denver Electric Vehicle Council:
http://www.devc.info/
Card carrying member and former racer with The National Electric Drag Racing
Association:
http://www.nedra.com/
Lyons, Colorado
1979 Mazda RX-7 EV (192V of Orbs that raised the two teenagers)
1989 GM (General Murderers of the pure EV1) S10 (144V of floodies, for Pa only!)
2004 Toyota Prius (for Ma, and Pa if Ma is a supervising!)


>Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2008 06:36:36 -0600
>From: "Zeke Yewdall"
>
>I've always had trouble with automotive type terminals coming loose and
>melting off under relatively low currents (on my ICE vehicles, not even an
>EV) but that was for the crappy ends that you are describing. I just
>recently saw some good ones in a battery store -- 4/0 and 2/0 cables with
>factory molded on automotive post terminals -- now that could actually work
>better than a golf cart post type terminal I guess. You won't find these in
>an auto parts store, but need to find a store that sells batteries for
>forklifts and golfcarts and such. Hensley Battery is where I was.
>
>Z
>
>


> David Nelson <[email protected]> wrote:
> >
> >> >Go for the SAE type if you actually have a choice?
> >>
> ...


----------

