# Lithium prices - best place to buy.



## Shane Jackson (Sep 28, 2011)

Hi new here. I have been wanting to build an EV for years and have been collecting parts for a future build. I am thinking of going ahead and buying the LiFePO4's...

I found a site online that has RealForce for $1.15/ah. They are US based and seems to be the best price I have seen. 

Anyone have any recommendations? One thing I do see is they seem to only have a 1750cycle life.....

Shane


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## cruisin (Jun 3, 2009)

Shane Jackson said:


> Hi new here. I have been wanting to build an EV for years and have been collecting parts for a future build. I am thinking of going ahead and buying the LiFePO4's...
> 
> I found a site online that has RealForce for $1.15/ah. They are US based and seems to be the best price I have seen.
> 
> ...


They dont hold a candle to CALIB who is US based with distribution. Also, the 180ah CALIB comes with paper work showing ah around 210, smaller and lighter. About $225 per ah.


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## Shane Jackson (Sep 28, 2011)

cruisin said:


> They dont hold a candle to CALIB who is US based with distribution. Also, the 180ah CALIB comes with paper work showing ah around 210, smaller and lighter. About $225 per ah.


Is CALIB the same as CALB (Sky energy?)


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## frodus (Apr 12, 2008)

Calib Power is the US operation of CALB


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## Shane Jackson (Sep 28, 2011)

frodus said:


> Calib Power is the US operation of CALB


Not sure if it is ok to post links... but the site below has CALB's for $1.59/AH (cheaper the more you buy). But you have to pay shipping... not sure how much that will add...

http://3xe-electric-cars.com/index.php?/en/lifepo4-battery.html

Any other suggestions?

Shane


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## frodus (Apr 12, 2008)

ouch.... they're like $1.25-1.30 if you go direct to Calib Power..... they sell direct.


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## Shane Jackson (Sep 28, 2011)

frodus said:


> ouch.... they're like $1.25-1.30 if you go direct to Calib Power..... they sell direct.



Humm... I thought cruisin said $2.25/Ah. Must have been a typo and $225 per 180ah cell.

Thanks for the heads up.

How do they compair to Winston? CALB states 2000 cycle at 80% DOD compared to 3,000??? And how relistic is 5,000 at 70% DOD?

Shane


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## cruisin (Jun 3, 2009)

Shane Jackson said:


> Humm... I thought cruisin said $2.25/Ah. Must have been a typo and $225 per 180ah cell.
> 
> Thanks for the heads up.
> 
> ...


 
You are right. Typo. I sell them for $1.25 per ah, which comes to $225 per 180 ah cell. CALIB POWER is now their name which was Sky before. The copper contact connectors and bolts/washers are extra and the straps if needed are not available from CALIB. I am providing this information to you with no intent of promoting products or sales.


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## Shane Jackson (Sep 28, 2011)

Thanks. I am actually interested in cycle life more than anything as I am also building a solar array for the house and comparing the price to lead over the long haul.... Weight don't matter for the house, it's all about the bottom $$ over the life of the batteries .

Shane


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## Cross (Aug 17, 2011)

Dear Shane,

Which country are you in? We offer batteries in Europe


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## ishiwgao (May 5, 2011)

I'm not sure about what the rest of you think, but clearly someone in RealForce is creating many fake accounts in this forum to promote their website. Go take a quick search on RealForce and you'll know what I mean.


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## Shane Jackson (Sep 28, 2011)

ishiwgao said:


> I'm not sure about what the rest of you think, but clearly someone in RealForce is creating many fake accounts in this forum to promote their website. Go take a quick search on RealForce and you'll know what I mean.


I'm in the US.

As for being connected to RealForce, I can assure you I am not. That's why I did not post a link to their site (being it was my first post I was not sure if that would be ok and also did not want people to think I was a link spammer.

Based on what I have seen (specs) I would not buy the RealForce batteries. 

One thing I question on the Calib's (and all LiFePO4's I guess) is the recommended charging/discharging currents. It is showing .3C for max life. So you either have to have a large Ah pack to handle the amp draw or shorten the life of the pack? 

Shane


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## drgrieve (Apr 14, 2011)

0.3C is not practical for discharge. The pack would be too big, too heavy, wouldn't fit and much $$$$.

Aim for your freeway cruising or whatever your cruising speed is to be around the 1 to 1.5C mark. Closer to 1 is better obviously.

What his equates to depends on many variables - cruising speed, rolling resistance, aerodynamics etc. Count on 15 to 25 kWh as a ballpark.


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## StanSimmons (Sep 3, 2011)

Shane Jackson said:


> Thanks. I am actually interested in cycle life more than anything as I am also building a solar array for the house and comparing the price to lead over the long haul.... Weight don't matter for the house, it's all about the bottom $$ over the life of the batteries .
> 
> Shane


For the house/solar, you may want to investigate Nickel Iron (Edison) batteries. They aren't as power dense, but the have an incredible longevity. There are many in operation over 80 years. New ones are being imported from China, but original Edison/Exide ones are available on ebay.

One source I've found is here: http://www.beutilityfree.com/Electric/Ni-Fe 

I think they are also available from a USA manufacturer in Montana, but I don't have that link.

I'm not sure Ni-Fe would work well for a vehicle, but Edison did use them in electric cars in the early 1900's.


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## MN Driver (Sep 29, 2009)

The internal resistance on those NiFe from the specs on the PDF in that link make them look terrible for anything but the absolutely slowest discharge and losing 15% of their charge over 10 days and the inefficiency of the voltage sag would make me shy away from them in a solar application. They are twice as expensive as lithium too when looking at their 5 hour rate even though lithium would have more kwh capacity at the same Ah level with the sag. Usually in a solar application the amount of space and weight taken up by batteries isn't a huge deal but the pictures of a modest Ah size 48v battery taking up half the average floor space of a basement seems a bit extreme. They might last forever but the amount of energy they would waste over their lifetime would have me rather swapping lithium when they wear out.


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## thomas.smith (Jul 22, 2009)

Ok, I promise I am not trolling or anything along those lines... I have recently (last week or so) found li-ion 18650 batteries at what appear to be pretty amazing pricing. I just ordered 100 Ultrafire 18650 3.7v 3000mah batteries for $147 U.S. I have seen some charts that show these batteries to be less than optimal, but at $0.13/Wh ($135/kWh), I figure that these are definitely worth a look. I am going to be putting together a pack for my son's bike and run some tests, but I would love some others' thoughts on these batteries/prices (besides the usual sounds to good to be true, probably is).


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## Shane Jackson (Sep 28, 2011)

thomas.smith said:


> Ok, I promise I am not trolling or anything along those lines... I have recently (last week or so) found li-ion 18650 batteries at what appear to be pretty amazing pricing. I just ordered 100 Ultrafire 18650 3.7v 3000mah batteries for $135 U.S. I have seen some charts that show these batteries to be less than optimal, but at $0.13/Wh ($135/kWh), I figure that these are definitely worth a look. I am going to be putting together a pack for my son's bike and run some tests, but I would love some others' thoughts on these batteries/prices (besides the usual sounds to good to be true, probably is).


Would love to know where you found them that cheap!


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## thomas.smith (Jul 22, 2009)

Shane Jackson said:


> Would love to know where you found them that cheap!


I bought 25 packs of these (at 4/pack) http://www.ebay.com/itm/260860570134?ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1497.l2649 . I have emailed the seller, and though he seems a little light on battery knowledge, he did seem honest and willing to do what he could to answer my questions/make me happy.


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## thomas.smith (Jul 22, 2009)

Shane Jackson said:


> Would love to know where you found them that cheap!


P.S. I corrected my price from my earlier post. They are $135/kWh, but I paid $147 for the 100 I bought (1110Wh).


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## Ziggythewiz (May 16, 2010)

I think the main issue with those is Li-ion vs LiFePo4. So these are maybe 4-5x cheaper, but with 1/10 the life.


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## cruisin (Jun 3, 2009)

thomas.smith said:


> P.S. I corrected my price from my earlier post. They are $135/kWh, but I paid $147 for the 100 I bought (1110Wh).


There may be a big problem here as you cannot solder to those cells without tabs on them. Additionaly, the need of a BMS is absolute necessary to avoid overcharge and/or over undercharge. The battery charger, if not used with a BMS, needs to be a digital controlled voltage charge model or you will wack the whole thing. I have been building battery packs for EV conversions using 18650 Li-ion cells and I can tell you it is NOT the way to go. Your desire to save a couple $$ is going to bite you right on the ass. My 2 cents. Been there and done it.


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## thomas.smith (Jul 22, 2009)

cruisin said:


> There may be a big problem here as you cannot solder to those cells without tabs on them. Additionaly, the need of a BMS is absolute necessary to avoid overcharge and/or over undercharge. The battery charger, if not used with a BMS, needs to be a digital controlled voltage charge model or you will wack the whole thing. I have been building battery packs for EV conversions using 18650 Li-ion cells and I can tell you it is NOT the way to go. Your desire to save a couple $$ is going to bite you right on the ass. My 2 cents. Been there and done it.


I have done my share of tabbing in the past, so that should not be too much of an issue. Most of my earlier packs have been 18650's or AA, so I'd love to hear what kind of issues you have run into with the 18650s. Again, I build my own battery management, so that shouldn't be an issue. I am looking to see if I can put together a simple, cheap, repeatable design for these (assuming they live up to their specs).


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## notailpipe (May 25, 2010)

Go with Calibpower in California and be done with it..


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## thomas.smith (Jul 22, 2009)

Ok, I guess I chose the wrong place to post... I wish you all the best.


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## EVfun (Mar 14, 2010)

thomas.smith said:


> I have done my share of tabbing in the past, so that should not be too much of an issue. Most of my earlier packs have been 18650's or AA, so I'd love to hear what kind of issues you have run into with the 18650s. Again, I build my own battery management, so that shouldn't be an issue. I am looking to see if I can put together a simple, cheap, repeatable design for these (assuming they live up to their specs).


Generally, the problem is the cost of a proper capacitive spot welder. You really shouldn't solder to the ends of the cells, it overheats the seals and possibly the active material.


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## thomas.smith (Jul 22, 2009)

EVfun said:


> Generally, the problem is the cost of a proper capacitive spot welder. You really shouldn't solder to the ends of the cells, it overheats the seals and possibly the active material.


That is among the list of things that I was hoping to make available... I built my first spot welder back in the 80's. When some friends of mine came to me a few years back to help them build packs, I designed and built a home-rig that isn't terribly difficult to reproduce. I recognize that some of the work is not for pure amateurs, but with instruction, most people can struggle their way through it.


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

Hi Thomas

*Ok, I guess I chose the wrong place to post... I wish you all the best. *

You chose the *right* place to post - we are all waiting to see how you get on!

Don't worry about other people having different ideas - listen to everybody and winnow the best ideas for yourself - and your audience


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## thomas.smith (Jul 22, 2009)

Just a note for anyone that might be interested. Today I found 2.8Ah Li-Ion's for $1.02 US ($1.04 AU). This works out to a little under $0.10/Wh. I grabbed a couple dozen to test. I have a design for a quick and dirty (and cheap) spot welder for pack making. Once I have it together and tweaked, I will be posting resources for that as well as my findings as I put together packs and test them. 
If the new cells work out, they end up being cheaper than the flooded lead acids that I have found. I think that would be significant. For now though, I will cross my fingers and have some fun.

P.S. Here is where I found the new cells: http://www.ebay.com/itm/170709796603?ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1497.l2649


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## thomas.smith (Jul 22, 2009)

Well, I got my first set of batteries in yesterday. Initial testing looks pretty good (though not necessarily terribly accurate). I took two cells and charged them to full (less than an hour). Then I hooked each of them to 1w LEDs that I had lying around. I hooked them up around 9 last night, and they were still both on this morning. I decided to try the quick-and-dirty method for spot welding (also the most manual, and cheapest) (though about the most dangerous too). I just grabbed 4 maxwell 2600 supercaps, put them in a series, added a coupla electrodes, charged them up to 8.5v and voila. I figure if I can continue in this manner without causing a fire, blowing something up, or otherwise destroying things; then the average tinkerer should be able to do it more carefully without causing too much mayhem.


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## thomas.smith (Jul 22, 2009)

P.S. It is worth noting that I have found 18650s for around $0.13/Wh from several different suppliers on ebay...


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## Shane Jackson (Sep 28, 2011)

Before anyone runs out and buys the $.13/watt 18650's you might want to read this tread:

http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb/showthread.php?255943-GTL-18650-Battery-Test-Updated

$.13/watt looks good but when you factor in the shorter life (rated at 1,000 cycles), and the probability of the capacity being overstated... $.13/watt is not really $.13/watt.....

Actually if the capacity is 1,400mah (as shown in testing) instead of the 2,800 claimed (paid for) and the life is 1/3 that of ThunderSky's... you are effectively paying $.78/watt when compared to ThunderSky's which is roughly $.39/watt (or 1/2 the price)

Not to mention the labor involved in building a comparable pack.

Shane


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## thomas.smith (Jul 22, 2009)

Shane Jackson said:


> Before anyone runs out and buys the $.13/watt 18650's you might want to read this tread:
> 
> http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb/showthread.php?255943-GTL-18650-Battery-Test-Updated
> 
> $.13/watt looks good but when you factor in the shorter life (rated at 1,000 cycles), and the probability of the capacity being overstated... $.13/watt is not really $.13/watt.....


Completely true for the GTLs (which were $0.10/Wh), if the testing comes out the same. I figure $20 for 20 test cells to see if GTL has actually gotten better (as they claim), is worth the money.





> Actually if the capacity is 1,400mah (as shown in testing) instead of the 2,800 claimed (paid for) and the life is 1/3 that of ThunderSky's... you are effectively paying $.78/watt when compared to ThunderSky's which is roughly $.39/watt (or 1/2 the price)
> 
> Not to mention the labor involved in building a comparable pack.
> 
> Shane


The $0.13/Wh cells are Ultrafire, which seem to be standing fairly true at around 11Wh/cell in my current (though admittedly not terribly controlled) testing.

I certainly not encouraging anything at the moment. That is why I am investing my time, and my money. It is certainly worth the time/effort if I can come up with a working solution.

BTW: With the Ultrafire cells, they are coming out around $0.13/Wh... Which with them being 1/3 the price of the ThunderSky batteries, they store 1/2 of the energy. Certainly makes sense to me, as I would have ended up paying $0.26/Wh through the course of buying buying two packs...


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## muffildy (Oct 11, 2011)

i found some cheap cells here:
http://www.evassemble.com/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=2

*edit* headway headquarters isnt actually in china
did some more searching and:
http://www.alibaba.com/product-gs/499056538/Rechargeable_Headway_38120S_10Ah_10C_Headway.html
Looks like it ranges from 11.9 to 15.9 from this chinese supplier

I wonder what shipping cost would be if i bought from overseas instead of the evassemble people.


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## dtbaker (Jan 5, 2008)

muffildy said:


> i found some cheap cells here:
> http://www.evassemble.com/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=2
> 
> *edit* headway headquarters isnt actually in china
> ...


There are quite a few (about 200 left) Thundersky 160ah cells available at $1.10/ah ($176/cell), and several hundred headway cells available through http://www.currentEVtech.com from 'Settlement Sale' stock sitting in his warehouse. These batteries and some other items like a bunch of Elcon chargers are available at great prices because: 1. they have been sitting on a shelf for 18 months while we were waiting thru the court shenanigans of the now infamous James Morrison who was running EVcomponents at the time and decided not to ship 23 or more pre-paid battery orders. 2. The Plaintiffs in the case can now liquidate, and the sooner the better....

PS. importing yourself is quite a pain.... handling customs and waiting 8 weeks for a boat is not what you want to do...


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## thomas.smith (Jul 22, 2009)

Ok, quick status for anyone interested. I was able to put together a quick and dirty battery tabbing unit for about $45. I have put together a few packs. I am waiting on my data logger, but when it gets in, I will be putting them through the paces to get some stats. I am liking what I am seeing so far. I have heard some horror stories about doing this, but so far I am not seeing any real problems. It is not like the 18650 li-ion cells appear to be particularly touchy (as MANY people seem to suggest). Anyhow, I am moving forward, and have picked up a few more sets of batteries to cross-compare. It is looking pretty realistic to be able to put together a 20kWh pack for around $2600. 

P.S. The pre-cut 18650 tabs are SO worth the few cents they cost.


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## thomas.smith (Jul 22, 2009)

Updates. 
1) Testing on the batteries that I got are not fantastic, but not as horrendous as was expected. 
2) GTL must have made some improvements in their QA department, their cells faired better than the others during my cell tests.
3) I was able to put together a REALLY awesome little capacitive battery tabber for like $30. Best of all, I have it powered by a couple of 18650 cells (since whattayaknow I had a bunch laying around).
3) I have a friend of mine working with me to put together some BMS' to compare cost/efficacy (I know when to hit up a REAL Electrical Engineer).

The cells all did pretty well (and within 15% of claimed energy) during their C/3 tests.

Which reminds me, if anyone picks up one of these (http://www.ebay.com/itm/110762329745?ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1497.l2649) datalogger boards and wants a Java API to them, lemme know. They are generic and rather cheap-o, but with a tiny bit of work, they do a great Job.

P.S. I will by putting out an instructable on how to make the tabber as soon as I am completely happy with the design (I current use a pair of 350F caps and two 18650s, but am trying to see how it does with 2 1F caps)

Total invested so far, about $250 (including batteries, capacitors, more batteries, more capacitors, some wire and a datalogger).


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## AviatorBJP (Sep 17, 2011)

Hey Thomas.Smith

So is there any special problems with Li-ion batteries in cars that I should know about before I consider using 18650s?

Everybody around the forums here seems to love LiFePo4 and herald them as the industry game-changer. I understand the difference in chemistry, but not the practical implications to us as EV'ers.


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## thomas.smith (Jul 22, 2009)

Aviator... I would love to answer your question, but to be honest, I don't know for sure. That is part of the reason for my experimentation. I know that at least at one point Tesla used them. My only concerns with them are:

1) Power density(LiCO has great energy density, but starts to sag pretty quick when overtaxed)
2) Thermal runaway(I am sure you have seen the fire videos by now)

To deal with them, my plans are:
1) I already figured that using a (super)capacitor bank should take care of my power density issues.
2) I am going to have active cooling as well as a solid BMS. This along with the capacitor bank should nicely eliminate concerns about self-destruction.

P.S. I plan on having a fire-retardant wrapping on the packs just in case.


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## batterytang (Nov 17, 2011)

Lithium battery especially LiFePO4 battery price would be going down continuously, at China here are lots of lithium battery manufacturers founded, just keep your eyes on...


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## lithiumlogic (Aug 24, 2011)

If you don't fancy soldering tabs or capacative welding is there any reason why you couldn't build a pack from 18650 battery holders like these -

http://www.focalprice.com/EB340B/37V_Single_18650_Battery_Holder_Black.html?Currency=GBP

(apart from the price, a little steep for a bit of ABS plastic and a spring)

would imagine it's then pretty easy to swap defective cells in and out.


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