# Mike's VW Type 3 Square conversion (LONG INTRO SORRY)



## mikesarge (Sep 8, 2008)

So, i just read the sticky and here i am. 
I just bought a 1973 VW type 3 squareback. I have been doing quite a bit of searching these forums and other blogs and such to figure out what exactly i want to do. 
-My mechanical background includes two and a half years as a part time tech/part time sales guy at a performance audi VW shop where i had the opportunity to build up a pretty sweet 2001 Audi S4 Avant. I feel pretty comfortable taking stuff apart and putting it back together. 
-I am hoping to get around 50 miles on a charge, or a decently quick quarter mile (less than 14 seconds @ more than 90mph) with the charge compromised significantly. 
-I hope to spend less than 9,000 on this build
-I am thinking lithium batts and an AC setup will be necessary, and have heard that this setup would be better for a hilly area. i would be willing to consider a DC setup as well though. I want to use a clutch if i can. I also hope to get a charger like the PFC 20 i have read about, so that i can explore alternative charging options for the future. 








thank you for reading my huge post!!!!!


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## madderscience (Jun 28, 2008)

A squareback would be a cool EV.

Unfortunately your $ goal and desire for lithium and AC are not compatible goals. A usable-size lithium pack will cost probably around $20k once you add all the extra gizmos needed to maintain it. AC costs roughly double what DC does for the motor and controller. For that extra cost you get a mild benefit of regen if your driving would require a lot of stop and go and riding the brakes going down hills. AC is overall slightly more efficient than DC (not counting regen) but only by a couple of percent which can be minimal compared to other factors in play in the conversion.

You could do a typical-performance DC conversion for about $10K or so but your 0-60 time will be in the 15-30 second range depending on the type, voltage and weight of your battery pack. Not sure what that translates to in the 1/4 mile.

If you need 50 miles (maximum) of range at 50-55mph on level ground and stay in the $10K budget range and you will need a battery-to-vehicle weight of at least 40%. It can be challenging to achieve this ratio or higher. Expect to be upgrading suspension and brakes and possibly reinforcing and modifying the chassis and bodywork. Heat the batteries if you live in a cold climate.

Pay attention to the details like rolling resistance, alignment and brake drag. It will be critical to minimize these to achieve your range goals.

My battery-to-weight ratio is 37% with my 1985 toyota MR2. I have done 66 miles (56 freeway, 10 surface streets) on one charge in a competition situation, but for normal driving I don't like to go more than 40 miles or so on a charge. I frequently do 25-30 miles without even watching the voltmeter. I haven't timed it but my 0-60 time is probably around 20-25 seconds. the car has a 126V battery, curtis controller and advanced DC 9" motor. I live in moderately hilly seattle.

Good Luck.


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## TX_Dj (Jul 25, 2008)

mikesarge said:


> -I hope to spend less than 9,000 on this build
> -I am thinking lithium batts and an AC setup


Better multiply that budget by about 5-6 if you wish to achieve lithium/AC.


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## mikesarge (Sep 8, 2008)

Good to know, i was just recently looking at the AC and Lithium options, but i think i will go with a DC system, i am planning on installing an airbag suspension system for a few reasons, the main one is that it would be sweet to set this baby on the frame everywhere i go. the brakes are sufficient as the car weighs next to nothing and it has discs in the front and fairly large drums out back. i'm thinking a 144v system would probably get the job done for range and performance i am looking for.


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## mikesarge (Sep 8, 2008)

http://e-volks.com/kit3.html
How does this kit look? anyone have any opinions? it is a local company, so that is a plus. seems to be a pretty good deal and they have experience with classic VWs.


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## madderscience (Jun 28, 2008)

If you are in a hilly area you would probably be better off with an advanced DC or warp 8" or 9" diameter motor (better torque, a little more efficient under load). I know both can fit in a VW bug though the 9" is a squeeze, but I don't know about the squareback.

The curtis 1231C is a 500 amp, 144v controller. Either they describe it wrong or they are really offering the 1221C which is a 400 amp, 120v controller. You should ask. You would be better off with the 500 amp one.

Otherwise the kit sounds like a good start. I'm sure they can do a motor substitution with minimal extra cost.

You'll need to be building your own battery boxes, mounting brackets and buying batteries separately it looks like.

For good range (40-50 miles) you will want 20 6v flooded batteries, and they should be good ones (trojan, interstate, US battery) They do cost more than the wal-mart cheapos but you seem to get what you pay for with batteries.

Other costs you don't cover with the kit are your suspension upgrades, brake upgrades (does that squareback have power brakes?? If no, you should seriously consider a retrofit, perhaps a braking system off a newer VW van would fit.

Also figure the cost of good, low rolling resistance tires and an alignment job after the car is operational.

Good Luck.


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## order99 (Sep 8, 2008)

I know next to nothing about EVs ( i'm here to learn while scraping up the cash and nerve)...

But the first car I ever purchased was a 1971 Squareback sedan. Unlike the Beetle, the engine was designed to go beneath a large cargo area near the rear hatch. Lift up the carpet there and pull up the panel-it's a huge area, I can't imagine you not having room for what you want.

You may notice that the Engine bay is much larger than the Access Panel-you may want to modify that later to take advantage of that lovely space. My Squareback had slow seepage before I accquired it-the entire sheet above the engine was just a rusty spiderweb.  So... I threw the panel out, cut the entire sheet free and cut a single 1/2" painted plywood panel to fit(none of that panel is structurally necessary). Like I said-plenty of room for your Batteries and Assorted Tech, more than a Beetle by far...

The only bad news is that the Engine and Emissions array is very light and highly efficient-bad because you won't gain as much weight allowance via your batteries upon its removal.

As far as the clutch goes-from what i've read here you can go with or without a clutch on a stick-shift EV(no idle)...if weight becomes a problem you might want to ditch it.


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## mikesarge (Sep 8, 2008)

It's all done for now!
http://www.evalbum.com/2943
ch-check it out!

wayyy different than my ideas a year ago, but worked out budgetwise about where i wanted it not including the car, which is fine. i'm just stoked to be driving on electricity all over town!

i'll probably add some more batteries in the spring to add some range and power, but for now its perfect!


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## JRitt (Sep 29, 2009)

Nice looking ride.


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## ol_skratch (Nov 10, 2009)

Nice job! Please keep posting status reports on this car. I've been very interested in converting a type 3 myself.


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## Newbnut (Jun 8, 2009)

Great to see another Type 3 conversion!! Still fantasizing about mine.


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## evfastback (Dec 26, 2009)

I have a Type 3 conversion that I am working on in Boulder. I have fitted my motor, controller, battery racks etc. I am restoring the frame/body right now and also fabricating some of the electrical assemblies too.

I have a blog about it:
http://evfastback.blogspot.com/

Go Type 3's!


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## mikesarge (Sep 8, 2008)

here's an update after a few years, we're almost back on the road. I think (famous last words) I'll try and drive it home from the shop today. I'm not going to sweat the BMS too much, it should be fine driving about 10 miles at 40mph, theoretical range on this pack (14.3KwH, 89.6v @160Ah) would be about 50 miles on the conservative side. More photos and updates to come


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## mikesarge (Sep 8, 2008)

Got it home today, it's too low and the tires are too wide, so now I think I'll raise it up a spline so I can drive it until I get either a narrower front beam or narrower front tires. here it is as of today though!


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