# 3 Wheeled motorcycle motor and gearing



## Matrix1000 (Aug 2, 2008)

Let me start off by saying that I'm a network engineer, not an electrician, nor a mathematician.

I'm trying to figure out what motor and gear combination I'd need for a 3 wheeled vehicle, and some answers to some various questions I haven't found answers for yet. I put up a "mockup" website at revolt-ev.com with a picture of what I'm building. 
I've got a tube frame worked out but I've only got enough extra $ to do this once so I'd like to get as close to right as possible. 

I figure the following would weigh around 500-600 lbs:

1. Tube frame, SAE Steel Grades 1018 and 1020 1 1⁄2-in. OD 0.120-in. wall 2 1/2-in OD main beam 0.200 wall thickness
.....a. Would prefer aluminum but no aluminum welding skills
2. GSXR 750 swingarm, rear tire and shock, brake
3. Two 17in GSXR front tires with brakes
4. Thin fiberglass shell 
.....a. I would prefer plastic but I don't know where to get it or how to mold it
.....b. btw: anyone know where to get a cockpit windshield made up?
5. Tube frame seats with mesh cloth back for support.

I drive 50 miles round trip to work on a highway @ 70mph so I need it to go at least that far.

Motor:
(I'm considering)
Advanced DC #L91-4003, 6.7
At 120 VDC, 16 HP continuous, 17.9 HP for one hour, 31 HP for five min., 72 HP peak
Or maybe a Solectria AC24 with the AT1200 gearbox (which may be overkill)

Power: 
120 VDC.
1. I'd like to line the sub floor with 4.5in tall Li-Ion battery packs, possibly from lifebatt (1220-HPS) and whatever else I can fit in the space thats left to get some AH in there but they're so dam'd expensive.
.....a. Looks like I'd need 10 batteries at 12v to get to 120v but that'll only give me 200AH !!!.
2. I'm also thinking about building in a EU2000i honda generator. 
.....a. Trying to figure out how long that would take to charge it..


1. Need a little help with the gear ratio and motor selection with chain drive
2. Need a little help selecting a controller
.....a. I'm looking at the Zilla 1K controller but do I need more/less/different?
3. Need a little help with realistic battery/speed/distance calculations.
.....a. Tried a couple EV calculators but they don't specify an 800lb vehicle and I'm not sure about the results. 
4. If anyone happens to be good with Solidworks or knows someone who is, I'd pay to have the frame/shell designed. I need the shell CAD so I can send it to http://www.janicki.com/products/transportation/patterns.htm to have it CNC'd for a mold.

I've got the frame tubes bent up, GSXR swingarm and wheels, and starting to weld it up this weekend.

Thanks for your advice.


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## aeroscott (Jan 5, 2008)

sounds like a rocket , I like it . what dia . tubes


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## Matrix1000 (Aug 2, 2008)

I'm hoping its going to be a rocket. The hard part is getting the AH in there while maintaining balance and preventing the pendulum effect with battery weight.

Tubes are 
1 1⁄2-in. OD 0.120-in. wall (most of the frame)
2 1/2-in OD 0.200 wall thickness (main beam )


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## aeroscott (Jan 5, 2008)

i was thinking of using some 1 7/8 ", 1 3/4 ",4130 that I cut out of a bent crane boom and aircraft engine mounts .am also loving the idea of air pistons shocks so I can get banking turns just for fun driving experience .


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## todayican (Jul 31, 2008)

Hi Aeroscott, I am building something fairly similar, take a look at tshtrikes.com I dig the idea of lean controll with the riders body, I also read about using a pendulum and tilt controll servo (the more G's the more lean)

On the one I am building I went with no lean and concentrated on putting all the weight low and in the center.

I have been working with Todd at http://www.toddscanopies.com he can make pretty much anything as long as its under 95" long


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## todayican (Jul 31, 2008)

Did the folks over at janicki give you an idea on how much they would charge to cnc (and glass?) the body from a cad file?


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## Matrix1000 (Aug 2, 2008)

They said that I'd have to send them a Solidworks or CAD file for them to give me a specific price. Dennis at www.dpcars.net said his CNC buck cost about $30K and another $35K for the mold, but mine will be a lot smaller so hopefully 1/4 or less of that. 

If the price is too high I'll just make a high density foam core fiberglass mold and take it over to a local fiberglass shop and have them lay up body parts as demand requires. They said that if I had a mold it would cost about $550 per body (4 piece) which is pretty good. At that price a guy could have a different body for every day of the week. I've got a couple different body designs in mind but I'm not a 3D CAD artist...need some help there.

The frame seems to be really simple. I can probably fit any skin/body design on it and the body isn't structural so designs can be unlimited.

Thanks for the tip on Todds canopies!


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## todayican (Jul 31, 2008)

What part of the country are you in Matrix? perhaps we could share some ideas, I am (hopefully) taking mine on its "skeleton drive" next week.

Tom


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## akumabito (Jun 23, 2008)

Matrix1000 said:


> Thanks for the tip on Todds canopies!


No kidding! It seems like an excellent resource for those who are building a vehicle from scratch. Who knows.. maybe if I ever get my recumbent e-moped going I might one day upgrade it with a fairing and a sexy canopy like that for year-round cruising


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## todayican (Jul 31, 2008)

Tell him the crazy car guy from Orlando sent you 

I am using the "RV-8" canopy, it's 95" by about 24' at the widest, 19" high, lots of options for a 2 seat tandem rig.


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## Mannyman (Jul 26, 2007)

I wish you luck.
You may want to enlist Minh for help, he's been there and done that.

I have a few questions:
What's the idea around the mock up site? 
Are you planning on selling a vehicle which you're asking the forum to help design for you?
Does Christian Sano or Peugeot know you are using their design on what looks like a commercial site?
If I could get away with using their design, only stretched for side by side seating I would, but I'm pretty sure they'd rightfully sue.

Just want you to be careful.
Peugeot Concept LiiON


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## Matrix1000 (Aug 2, 2008)

Yes, I am planning on building a three wheel vehicle. Three wheel vehicles are not patented. Neither are sleek body designs otherwise every sports car manufacturer out there would be sueing each other. 

The images on the "mockup" site are blured out so as not to violate any copyrights and have "Image Coming Soon" plastered over them, but are very (extremely) close to what I had already designed before I ran into that image while doing research on three wheeled electric cars. (same way you did...Google) They'll come down and be replaced with the vehicle I designed a.s.a.p. 

Yes I am asking for help designing the car. I think almost everyone here is here to ask these types of questions. Yes I plan on selling kits and body parts for DIY EV'ers if everything goes right. Once I make the original body molds why not. I hope theres nothing wrong with that. 

I'm just looking for some advice thats all.


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## Mannyman (Jul 26, 2007)

> Yes, I am planning on building a three wheel vehicle. Three wheel vehicles are not patented. Neither are sleek body designs.
> 
> The images on the "mockup" site are blured out so as not to violate any copyrights and have "Image Coming Soon" plastered over them, but are very (extremely) close to what I had already designed. I just happened to run across them while doing research on three wheeled electric cars. (same way you did...Google) They'll come down and be replaced with images of my vehicle soon.
> 
> ...


No need to get defensive. 

I was trying to be constructive by telling you that it looks like You are basically advertising Peugot's concept car, which blurred or not, IS copyrighted by them. (Your website implies you own the copyright.)

No one has said that 3 wheelers are patented; but using someone else's images as your own for commercial purposes, without their permission is still wrong. 
I guess it would be ok if you create the images yourself from scratch, (without using images off the internet and then manipulating them on your PC).
Basically, how would you like it if somone copied your website (maybe just blurring it a bit)?

I actually like the idea of a community based EV business. (It just might be a bit scary to buy a vehicle from someone who is asking how to build it.) I think it would be great if you are able to produce body parts and sell them, especially if you are willing to spend the money on making them.

Advice from last time:
Like I said Minh is a solidworks pro who has already dealt with sprocket sizes and gear ratios,motor selection, etc., so you may want to send him a message.


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## Matrix1000 (Aug 2, 2008)

This was my original design in 2005.










Thats partial frame/partial outline that I designed in 2005. Looks very similar to other designs that have been popping up lately except I designed my for two passengers. 

I probably would have forgotten about it if gas prices hadn't gone up...


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## Mannyman (Jul 26, 2007)

Not bad.
You should be proud of it and use that on your website until the vehicle progresses into something else.

Why I may have sounded a bit bitter/skeptical/dick-ish:

Quite a few people have been burnt by "EV start-ups"; either financially by scam artists (LionEV, SparkEV) or they delayed their own plans on creating something because of vaporware (Obvio, ZapX, Alias, etc.). 
I personally almost gave up being involved with three-wheelers when Aptera came out asking for deposits, that is until until their 3rd delay. I know they are for real as it would be nuts to scam Google for millions, but while they lag, others should fulfill the demand from people left waiting, especially those outside California.
With that said, the more the merrier when it comes to electric vehicles with any number of wheels.

Manny


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## Matrix1000 (Aug 2, 2008)

Thanks for the info. Sorry, I don't mean to get too defensive, I just hate to get burned down for a good idea that may just need a little tuning. 

I think that the tandem design makes sense and has lots of potential. 

I can't find any help on the boards, I guess I'll just use the motor I picked and pick up a 1k controller and go with that. I've got an couple electric car shops nearby that can install it for me if I can't figure it out. 

If I go single ratio, I've been told that I should be able to get 70-75 with 120V. 

I believe my battery figures would be:
70-75 miles, 
175 Wh/mile. 
50 miles, 

thats ~9kWh pack. 
100Ah lifepo, for ~200 a cell. I'd need 38. 

Thats $7600 in batteries.

I'm trying to find a way to get all this down to a $10,000 package and still make it fun to drive. The batteries take a big chunk of dough.

As for the gearing for the motor, I guess I'll just take a stab at picking a sprocket from electricmotorsport.com.


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## todayican (Jul 31, 2008)

Matrix, I am testing at 72v on my diesel electric early next week. Ill let you know what the results are. also mcmaster carr is a good "go to" spot for sprockets.


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## Matrix1000 (Aug 2, 2008)

That would be great! and thanks for the tip on the sprockets!


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