# Clutched versus clutchless conversions...



## alvin (Jul 26, 2008)

Even though there is a clutch disc in that picture, I would say it is clutchless. 

You could drill the holes yourself just make sure the shafts are aligned perfectly. You should have a couple of dowels not just the bolts keeping it aligned.


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## Lionstrike (Oct 29, 2011)

alvin said:


> Even though there is a clutch disc in that picture, I would say it is clutchless.
> 
> You could drill the holes yourself just make sure the shafts are aligned perfectly. You should have a couple of dowels not just the bolts keeping it aligned.


Cool. So let me see if I understand this correctly...

The motor connects to this clutch disk, the clutch disk attaches to the flywheel and the flywheel attaches to the transmission? Sound about right?


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## Lionstrike (Oct 29, 2011)

It might just be like this and bolt right in:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5ZeVkRx_cwM


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## alvin (Jul 26, 2008)

In the pic you posted there is no flywheel or pressure plate. It looks like the clutch disc is mounted to the coupler on the motor. All you do now is slide the unit on to the transmission input shaft.


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## gunnarhs (Apr 24, 2012)

Lionstrike said:


> So I am a crap mechanic and know nothing about transmissions. ...
> 
> My motor and adapter is attached as an image to this post. I have a '92 Ford Ranger. How does all of this connect up? Is this a clutched or clutchless adapter? Is there an illustration somewhere that could help?
> 
> Some folks told me to buy a custom adapter. That folks, is like $1000. It's not that I am tight with money or anything, in fact I am even will to do that *if absolutely necessary *but I'd just as well figure drilling a few holes in the adapter plate that I already have an putting that $1000 towards some lithium. That makes reasonable sense doesn't it?


Hi this looks like a clutch-less-adapter but keeping the interior of the clutch-disk (the springs) for shock absorption.
If it is well done it looks something like on this video
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hkwq9OfdRmU&index=10&list=PLAE3D3BCC6EAB6299
If you want your adapter to work for a longer time I would use a professional adapter even if it costs the 1000 USD


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## piotrsko (Dec 9, 2007)

The adapters run about $300. I myself like the Canev one, because I bought one and it was a really precision fit. Depending on which engine the ranger came with, you have the possibility of a cologne engine bellhousing 
That goes back all the way to 1968. 

I went with a clutch because I get really aggrieved waiting for everything to match speeds to catch the gears up or down. My tyogokogo trans is a constant mesh. Hard to smoke they beer can Honda rice rockets if it takes 2-3 seconds to snag the next gear. I shift faster in the school bus.


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## dragonsgate (May 19, 2012)

Lionstrike said:


> So I am a crap mechanic and know nothing about transmissions. I know a couple of mechanics who said that they'd rip that engine out for me a reasonable price. I'd love to tinker with it myself but I have no garage or access to one. I live in central Pennsylvania, USA so in about 3-4 weeks it'll be unreasonably cold outside. That sounds like a good time to solder up that Open Revolt controller I've bought.
> 
> Anyway, one that motor and controller gets out, my understanding is that my engine compartment will look like this:
> 
> ...


 The coupler looks simple but doable. It looked like the splined disk and the motor shaft were aligned. You want those to be dead on center. You might think about having it balanced. Is that adapter plate steel? It sounded like steel when you bumped it against the tranny housing. Steel will work but with any adapter plate you want to make sure it doesn’t flex. Flexing can cause minor change in angle alignment of the motor shaft and in put shaft of the trans.  Brace the motor with the shaft pointing up with the adapter plate bolted to the motor but no coupler then set the trans on top and check the parallel alignment of the two shafts. When you have made certain of that alignment then do the same thing with the coupler in place. Turn the motor and trans by hand to see if it is centered. A dial indicator would be nice at this point. To make it easier I cut an opening in the bell of my transmission big enough to get my hand in. Where I cut was already a small hole for checking engine timing off the flywheel so I enlarged it a bit.  Once you are satisfied that everything is running true clamp the plate to the bell so nothing moves and recheck everything then drill the holes into the adapting plate using the bell housing holes as guides. This can be done with a hand drill but be careful the drill bit does not walk and cut into the side of the pilot hole and it is going relatively straight. Put bolts in and tighten then check alignments again to see it you screwed up. That is pretty much the shade tree method.


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## Caps18 (Jun 8, 2008)

It might cost a little to buy an adapter, but it needs to be lined up just right, and the distance between the transmission and motor needs to be the right amount.

I thought this part was going to be the 'easy' part, where I just spent the money and bolted everything together. 

I am using my clutch still, with flywheel and pressure plate. I like the idea of being able to shift into a higher gear when traveling at higher speeds. I'm not an expert to know if there is any efficiency benefit to using higher gears, but I think that I would have some issues if I had to only use 2nd or 3rd gear. Which is what my understanding of a clutchless conversion would mean.


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## dragonsgate (May 19, 2012)

I was getting ready to put a clutch in my car when I redid it a few months ago but one of the aluminum brackets that holds the throw out arm broke off so I decided I didn’t want to mess with the repair job and reinstalling the master and slave cylinders so I stuck with no clutch. No clutch design is a bit simpler and maybe even cheaper. I have been shifting with out a clutch for quite awhile now and have not really missed the clutch. Up shifting is no problem. (Just no speed shifts) Down shift is a little more complicated with forth to third pretty easy and third to second is the hardest to do sometimes. A clutch would be nice for a full on blow out or you could hook the clutch peddle to a quick release plug. I guess it is a matter of preference and skill or like in my case ambition.


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## nimblemotors (Oct 1, 2010)

I just wanted to point out that many 'gurus' said you need the clutch springs or the transmission will be destroyed. Look at the clutch disc of a Porsche Boxster and you see it HAS NO SPRINGS, it is a SOLID DISK.
So Porsche has transmissions that are destroyed after a few miles driving on the street or the 'gurus' were wrong. You decide which it is.










IMO Some fancy coupling with the original clutch springs is just wasted dollars and more parts that can fail.


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## Caps18 (Jun 8, 2008)

That is what I don't understand. How can you shift at all if you don't have a clutch?


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## favguy (May 2, 2008)

@ nimblemotors,

The Porsche Boxster clutch discs have no springs anymore because they now use a dual mass flywheel. The springs are now inside the flywheel instead, they haven't gone, in fact they are now much bigger!

In any case the momentary slippage of the clutch disc during engagement will control the application of torque. 

Controlling the application of torque by using a sprung clutch plate is no bad thing with an electric motor directly connected to the transmission, they were never built for the instant torque produced by motors....

@ Caps18,

The clutch removes the heavy rotating mass of an idling ICE engine and flywheel, allowing the synchromesh in the transmission to match gears for changing. 

Your EV with a direct coupled motor has no heavy mass to remove, there is only the weight of the motor armature and coupling, so the synchromesh can cope with this smaller additional load and you can change at will with the power removed from the motor, albeit slightly more slowly. Some transmissions work better than others depending how well engineered the synchromesh is.


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## nimblemotors (Oct 1, 2010)

The Boxster does have the springs in the flywheel. 










So I can't use it as an example of not needing them for EVs.
I will have to use other examples instead, like for example a Prius,
or golf carts, or other OEM EVs that directly couple the motor to the drivetrain.


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## dragonsgate (May 19, 2012)

No one that I know of says you can’t use a coupler with no springs but there have been cases of damage to electric motor shafts that are suspected to be caused by the lack of springs. The torque from ICE engines with standard transmissions is also softened somewhat by the engaging of the clutch and the gradual rise in torque under normal driving conditions. Electric motors especially DC have a lot of torque. All the torque is from zero RPM so a daily hammering on an inferior coupler with no springs is going to take its toll a lot quicker.


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

My tuppence worth

Yes an electric motor can have more torque available than an IC engine,

But that is only part of the story,
With an IC engine it is common (universal) to rev the engine and pop the clutch,
The energy stored in the IC flywheel feeds a much much higher instantaneous torque to the gearbox
(This is why you can spin the tires)

Also all of the motor controllers that I have had anything to do with have a "ramp" feature which ramps up the current when the driver stomps on the pedal
If you are worried about your gearbox you can set it gently

For these reasons I don't believe an electric motor coupled to a gearbox needs the clutch springs


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## dragonsgate (May 19, 2012)

Duncan said:


> My tuppence worth
> 
> Yes an electric motor can have more torque available than an IC engine,
> 
> ...


I agree with you that revving an ICE and popping the clutch can make the tires bark but do it enough and eventually something will break. Same with the electric. That is why I have stuck to only 500 amp controller. I know that if I broke down and stuck a 1K amper in the stupid teenager that still lurks in me would use all 1000 of those amps and eventually break something spring or no springs.


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## Lionstrike (Oct 29, 2011)

dragonsgate said:


> I agree with you that revving an ICE and popping the clutch can make the tires bark but do it enough and eventually something will break. Same with the electric. That is why I have stuck to only 500 amp controller. I know that if I broke down and stuck a 1K amper in the stupid teenager that still lurks in me would use all 1000 of those amps and eventually break something spring or no springs.


Whoa! Now I am totally confused...

A grand for the adapter and coupler... that's quite a bit of money. Who here says that I should scrap that adapter and coupler I have in favor of a specially machined one?

I'd really like not to do that even if I have to machine the last little bit. The difference between spending $2000 on lithium batteries and $3000 is dramatic. That extra grand means a lot more range for me.


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

You have got an adapter
Try and make it fit!

If you can't then get hold of an old clutch pressure plate for your gearbox and make a new one

My car is running direct drive - I was easily able to make an adapter to go from a spline drive part (off the old forklift) to my propshaft

It's not rocket science (and it shouldn't cost $1000)


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## Lionstrike (Oct 29, 2011)

I am with Duncan on this. I'd rather take a wrench to it than drop $1000.


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## favguy (May 2, 2008)

Find a good local machine shop if you can, they should be happy to make up anything you need that you can't do at home, usually for just the labour cost if you tell them exactly what you need clearly


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## gunnarhs (Apr 24, 2012)

Lionstrike said:


> Whoa! Now I am totally confused...
> 
> A grand for the adapter and coupler... that's quite a bit of money. Who here says that I should scrap that adapter and coupler I have in favor of a specially machined one?


You can do the adapter-plate yourself even with limited experience but the coupler should be well machined, this costs from 300 USD as one member has pointed out (more if the adapter for type of motor/transmission has not been done before). In case of damage a new transmission costs usually more 

About having clutch or not it depends on the type of car gearbox/transmission. For example in our Daewoo Lanos convertion for city driving normal roads it was no problem skipping the clutch and shifting directly. The gearbox in that car is very easy to shift 
(note that you can shift the gasoline version without using the clutch).
I have a Daewoo Matiz gearbox as test and I would not use the gearbox without a clutch in that car. it feels much worse to shift directly.
Also if you want to change gears fast a clutch is better.
But if you do not use clutch there is still the question if you should use the spring as shock absorber or not. If you intend to drive offroad I would use them...


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## piotrsko (Dec 9, 2007)

Actually, the hub springs are mostly for centering the hub rather than shock absorption.


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## Lionstrike (Oct 29, 2011)

piotrsko said:


> Actually, the hub springs are mostly for centering the hub rather than shock absorption.


Another valid point is that I've got this coupler used. It may not even mate with my transmission no? It could be the wrong size, wrong number of splines, or might just not hook up at all. There's a reasonably good chance that I'll need a new coupler, and I'd do well to have that done professionally.

The adapter on the other hand should be doable. If I have a coupler that works then I guess all I need is to drill new holes. This looks like 1/2 inch thick aluminum. I think I might be able to get through that with a hand drill.


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## dragonsgate (May 19, 2012)

The flex plate setup you have looks a lot better than my first coupler. The adapter plate from what I saw of it should work. Personally I like the idea of the springs in a coupler but do not rely on them to compensate for any kind of misalignment. If you have a flex plate with any kind of slop between the splined part and the part that holds the springs then get a better one that doesn’t.


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## alvin (Jul 26, 2008)

Mine is an '87 Ranger Open Revolt controller. Clutchless I only used the very center of the clutch disc. But the springs might be nice ,not for centering, that's not how it works.

Since you already have the adapter plate mounted to the motor it should not cost too much to have a machine shop align it to the trans. Those people are good at that stuff. It is very important to get that right. Just take the motor and trans to the shop. Take the coupler too.

When I drive my truck I put it into 3rd and drive not very much shifting at all. That carries me up to 50mph. And pulling away from dead stop I don't get anywhere near 500 amps. No honking horns from anyone either.


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## poprock (Apr 29, 2010)

All good advice so far . Having dismantled many engine to trans , clutch shudder on takeoff could usually be diagnosed as a broken mount or loose or broken driven plate springs. In some cases loose clutch facings were the problem. Some 60's european cars such as the '63 Simca Aronde, had a large rubber union between gearbox and tailshaft to transmit power more smoothly. It still required a lot of clutch feathering to get a smooth takeoff, and when I started driving, it then needed several clutch replacements. No clutch is definitely for old codgers like me, but the only issue encountered with my Sirion so far has been " can I have a drive? " 
" sure, but remember to change gears slowly ". After the first few grindings and crunches it sinks in.


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## onegreenev (May 18, 2012)

Transmission was not designed to be shifted without the clutch. ICE or not. Use and keep your clutch. Balance your flywheel and pressure plate and you will be good to go. The tiny extra weight from the clutch is negligible. Unless of course you are racing and need that extra 1/1000th of a second off your time. If you want to be safe and keep with traffic and not have to worry about shifting slow or fast then keep the clutch. I feel is not a safe thing to be shifting slowing in traffic. There are times you NEED to shift fast and without the clutch your going to grind. 

Just keep the clutch or go with an automatic and AC and incorporate idle function. For crying out loud, your just driving on the street. Why do you feel the need to change and re-engineer your vehicle. Even removing the clutch is changing quite a bit.


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## poprock (Apr 29, 2010)

_When I drive my truck I put it into 3rd and drive not very much shifting at all. That carries me up to 50mph. And pulling away from dead stop I don't get anywhere near 500 amps. No honking horns from anyone either._ 

I agree with Alvin. Second and third will cover normal start up to 80kmh. -(50 mph.) Plenty of acceleration, two less gear changes. And as far as not being allowed to re-engineer our cars, ICE to electric, clutch or clutchless, still requires certification by an appropriate engineer who approves our re-engineering .


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## Frank (Dec 6, 2008)

You may find that all you need is third gear. That's all I ever use on our Saturn.


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## Moltenmetal (Mar 20, 2014)

Clutchless is risky, but there is less risk of poor performance with a DC motor than with an AC motor from what I gather. The likelihood you end up with poor performance with an AC motor in a clutchless setup is fairly high, based on feedback I received from people who had gone that route.

As to the wear and tear on the transmission, it just positively has to be worse clutchless than with a clutch. Does that matter? Depends on how over-engineered your transmission is and how careful you are shifting. Chances are, the transmission isn't over-engineered for the torque your electric motor is capable of putting out. Does that mean people are tearing up their transmissions all the time in clutchless conversions? I haven't heard much of that here, though people do break things when they crank up the fun factor on their conversions. I've heard of numerous people who are on their 2nd controller or DC motor.


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## onegreenev (May 18, 2012)

Moltenmetal said:


> Clutchless is risky, but there is less risk of poor performance with a DC motor than with an AC motor from what I gather. The likelihood you end up with poor performance with an AC motor in a clutchless setup is fairly high, based on feedback I received from people who had gone that route.
> 
> As to the wear and tear on the transmission, it just positively has to be worse clutchless than with a clutch. Does that matter? Depends on how over-engineered your transmission is and how careful you are shifting. Chances are, the transmission isn't over-engineered for the torque your electric motor is capable of putting out. Does that mean people are tearing up their transmissions all the time in clutchless conversions? I haven't heard much of that here, though people do break things when they crank up the fun factor on their conversions. I've heard of numerous people who are on their 2nd controller or DC motor.


For the most part even a stock transmission will handle the torque of a motor just fine. Most people don't over power the motors to the point of transmission destruction. Remember the transmissions on most cars must also handle a very very wide range of use and they are rather over engineered from the beginning. The borg warner single speed transmissions are not designed for the type of use you find in your typical car. It is terrible hard on a transmission to be shifted without a clutch. Some have busted transmissions and even twisted drive lines or axles but that is because they try to do a burnout in 3rd gear putting a crap load of torque to the components. That is why I use 2nd up through the gears. Just like it had an ICE. If you have the gears why not take advantage of them. I do. Sure, I can start out in 3rd. But that is hard on the components as well. They were not designed for that. So drive it like it was designed. Utilize the gearing. It will be much more fun and you can shift quick because you have a clutch in your system. If the ICE is not really affected by having the extra weight of a flywheel then what makes you think the electric motor will have trouble with it? As for the AC setups with a clutch, its a no brainer. They work great. Ive driven two vehicles with AC motors from HPEVS and with a clutch. Both were perfect. No issues and lots of power. I know of a small light weight car with an AC 75 and the owner said its kinda stupid power. So its fine to use your clutch on your AC car as well. I purchased and over engineered transmission for my VW but that's because I eventually want to get some stupid power through the transmission to the rear wheels. I will need to update my axles before I go total stupid power. It is possible to twist the axles and they are much heftier than most front wheel drive vehicles. So your average 9" DC or AC motor with a normal amount of power will not be a real issue. You may want to use a higher level racing pressure plate and clutch disk to help hold it when you dump your pedal while in 3rd. You could easily burn your clutch disk. So utilize the gears and shift fast up through the gears. My gear ratio is good for 1st through 4th but real nice in 2nd on up.


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## onegreenev (May 18, 2012)

poprock1 said:


> _When I drive my truck I put it into 3rd and drive not very much shifting at all. That carries me up to 50mph. And pulling away from dead stop I don't get anywhere near 500 amps. No honking horns from anyone either._
> 
> I agree with Alvin. Second and third will cover normal start up to 80kmh. -(50 mph.) Plenty of acceleration, two less gear changes. And as far as not being allowed to re-engineer our cars, ICE to electric, clutch or clutchless, still requires certification by an appropriate engineer who approves our re-engineering .


Clutchless aside, many of the connections on the clutchless cars have been marginal and no engineer will be able to certify those because they are hidden well within the transmission and behind the installed motor. Ive seen too many of them fail over the years that using the standard clutch is best. No need to certify that. But for the adaptor and motor and the other components, yes, at least where you live. Here the restrictions are few.


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

My tuppence worth on the clutch

The clutch is used to;

(1) Take off from stationary with the engine spinning - *totally unnecessary with an EV*

(2) Reduce the rotational moment of inertia of the input shaft so that the syncro cones can get the engagement dogs at matching speeds
It does this by de-coupling the heavy IC engine and flywheel

The clutch is rarely used on motorbikes to change gear because their engines have much lower rotational inertia 

If you make a decent low inertia coupling the rotational inertia of the electric motor is low enough that most gearboxes can shift gear nicely with the motor still coupled

If you have kept the flywheel (or most of it) then you will have a lot of rotational inertia and a poor gear shift
Some gearboxes have syncro cones that can easily cope - some don't

As far as overloading the gearbox with the mighty torque of your electric motor,
I don't believe it
The highest loads (on your gearbox) are in the lower gears - and are limited by tire adhesion

If you do want to break your gearbox its not changing to an electric motor that will make the difference but getting some super sticky tires


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## Lionstrike (Oct 29, 2011)

Duncan said:


> My tuppence worth on the clutch
> 
> The clutch is used to;
> 
> ...


Wow. It appears that I've started quite a discussion here. 


I think that I may just have to try it and see. There seems to be strong arguments and favor of clutched and clutchless. It's a lot to think on.


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## alvin (Jul 26, 2008)

I would like to point out that in my Ranger 3rd gear is the proper gear for starting out. That leaves me with 4th and 5th for higher speeds. My original point was there is not a lot of shifting to be done while driving.


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## Lionstrike (Oct 29, 2011)

alvin said:


> I would like to point out that in my Ranger 3rd gear is the proper gear for starting out. That leaves me with 4th and 5th for higher speeds. My original point was there is not a lot of shifting to be done while driving.


I am curious Alvin, do you have a conversion blog anywhere? Since I am doing a Ranger as well, it'd be great if I could have a look at your notes.


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## alvin (Jul 26, 2008)

No I don't. I just did my conversion from reading a book called "Build Your Own Electric Vehicle" by Bob Brandt. It is an old book from the 1990's. There may be a newer version now. The basics are still the same. Batteries are better. 

I have a GARAGE entry here but the pics are gone. HERE is my truck on EVDL.

You can start a build thread if you like. And I and others can post to it.


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## Lionstrike (Oct 29, 2011)

alvin said:


> No I don't. I just did my conversion from reading a book called "Build Your Own Electric Vehicle" by Bob Brandt. It is an old book from the 1990's. There may be a newer version now. The basics are still the same. Batteries are better.
> 
> I have a GARAGE entry here but the pics are gone. HERE is my truck on EVDL.
> 
> You can start a build thread if you like. And I and others can post to it.


I am afraid that I don't have much to report yet. I have the truck, and so far I am just cleaning it up cosmetically. The hood latch is rusted and bent, I had to throw a bunch of crap out of the bed from the previous owner and I need to use a dust buster on the inside of the cab. 

I don't have much time before it gets cold up here in the north east so I am just going to clean it up, maybe teach myself how to drive a standard on it, and then cover it up for the cold months ahead.

In the meantime, I have an Open Revolt controller to build. That'll give me something to do.

Your truck is impressive. It's exactly what I am going for.


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## alvin (Jul 26, 2008)

It gets cold to me down here in the winter sometime. I laid on the ground in a snowmobile suit and power washed under the truck and everywhere else.

You know when it is an electric truck it is more like an automatic than a standard. When you are stopped the motor is not turning so when you pull away, even if you had a clutch, you would not use it.

I also use an Open Revolt controller. It was not very difficult to put together.

Good Luck
Alvin


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## dougingraham (Jul 26, 2011)

One thing I have not seen mentioned in this thread is when going clutchless with AC motors you have made coast down regen fairly impractical. This is because when you let off the throttle to shift the regen kicks in and when you place the transmission in neutral the motor will stop turning almost instantly. You would need to add a switch to the shift selector that could disable regen for the duration of the shift or you will need to blip the throttle in order to match speeds manually. I suppose you could also program up a device that would match the motor speed to the input shaft speed when shifting but this is not practical for most DIY applications.

For my next conversion I want to eliminate the transmission and go AC. This seems to me to be the only practical way to eliminate the clutch and eliminate all the issues. I will probably try to use a salvage powertrain from one of the OEM cars. Lots of research and lots of work before we get there.


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## dcb (Dec 5, 2009)

dougingraham said:


> ...when you let off the throttle to shift the regen kicks in.


That much should be user configurable IMHO, I would rather only regen if the brake lights are on (which you can do without activating the mechanical brakes).

Maybe the clutch pedal (just a switch now) can give the controller some idea what gear you want next, dunno, maybe multiple foot switches instead of the clutch. It gets complicated unless you turn shifting over completely to the computer or detect the forces/position on the shifter.


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## onegreenev (May 18, 2012)

Throttle regen is fine as long as its not very high regen. Ive driven two cars with clutches with AC and brake regen. Why do you need throttle off regen. Just feather your brake pedal so you have regen without applying manual brakes if you need to slow a bit. It works great. My Leaf is throttle off and brake regen. One takes over where the other leaves off. This is fine if you have an automatic or a single speed setup like the LEAF or if you lock in a gear on your tranny and just leave it in one gear with no shifting possible. If you do a setup where you don't shift then be sure your connection is solid and won't get damaged by the high torque. When I do my VW Bus with the AC-35 motor I will be doing throttle off and brake regen. Throttle off will be minimal to provide a basic motor braking setup then have the brake regen take over where the throttle off stops. That way when you are full off the throttle you won't stop regen. So at full off the throttle you have x amount of regen. When you apply the brake you're percentage starts at that percentage your throttle off is set at so you have a smooth transition from one to the other. That way with slight off throttle you can set a dead zone where you actually coast before you start to regen as you lift your foot of the throttle. 

I do believe HPEVS has the ability to do that. No need to worry and you can have throttle off coasting, regen and brake regen all in one.


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## dougingraham (Jul 26, 2011)

It was not my intention to debate whether coasting regen is good or not. Lots of people seem to want it. I have heard the BMW i3 has rather a lot of it and it is not adjustable. One of the comments I hear often when I let people drive my EV is that it doesn't slow down when you take your foot off the throttle. Even less than cars with automatic transmissions. In order to make the car feel like what people are used to it could be considered a good idea to have a little coasting regen. I personally do not want it. I want regen to kick in only when I step on the brake pedal.

My point was that if you have an AC system and specifically want coasting regen you are going to have a more difficult time trying to go clutchless. Without considerable effort they can be considered mutually exclusive.

Regen in moderation is a good thing. But there are still losses. You don't get all of it back. But it is far better than throwing it away as heat in your standard friction brakes.


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## EVfun (Mar 14, 2010)

I've done 3 EV conversions. With 2 I retained the clutch while 1 was clutchless. The only one of 3 those EVs I still own is the clutchless conversion.


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## Lionstrike (Oct 29, 2011)

EVfun said:


> I've done 3 EV conversions. With 2 I retained the clutch while 1 was clutchless. The only one of 3 those EVs I still own is the clutchless conversion.


Is that another vote for clutchless?


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## onegreenev (May 18, 2012)

Im working on number 3 and all are clutched. Number 4 will also have a clutch. Number 2 is still in use to day in Colorado and it has the clutch with a Warp9 Impulse. Number one was stripped of the electric components and sold off as a bare vehicle and electric components sold except the Synkromotive controller. The original controller was sold and is in use today in an EV with a clutch. My current one has a clutch and my Bus will be clutched and AC. 

I don't shift nearly as much as I don't have to declutch when stopping but I still use the gears will be starting in 2nd and rarely using 1st even though the new transmission will allow me to use it like a regular ICE setup. My R&P is 3.44:1 rather than the more common 4.125:1.


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

Mine is clutchless
But then it's also gearboxless
(Drives through a short propshaft to the diff) - does that count as a vote?


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## onegreenev (May 18, 2012)

I would dare say yes.


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## Lionstrike (Oct 29, 2011)

onegreenev said:


> I would dare say yes.


I'd think so too.


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## TooQik (May 4, 2013)

My build in progress is AC and clutch. My vote probably doesn't count though as I haven't even driven an EV yet, let alone one without a clutch.

It really is a matter of chosing the best option for your builds intended purpose though, I intend to hillclimb mine so I wanted to keep the clutch for faster gear changes.


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## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

For DC, I vote clutchless. For AC, I vote for a clutch. The 1238 and 1239 controllers that come with the hpevs AC kits have a lead that goes to the clutch pedal to over ride off throttle regen while shifting.


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## Lionstrike (Oct 29, 2011)

evmetro said:


> For DC, I vote clutchless. For AC, I vote for a clutch. The 1238 and 1239 controllers that come with the hpevs AC kits have a lead that goes to the clutch pedal to over ride off throttle regen while shifting.


I have an ADC FB1 4001A 9 inch. I am strongly leaning towards clutchless at this point.


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## onegreenev (May 18, 2012)

evmetro said:


> For DC, I vote clutchless. For AC, I vote for a clutch. The 1238 and 1239 controllers that come with the hpevs AC kits have a lead that goes to the clutch pedal to over ride off throttle regen while shifting.


What is your thinking on DC clutchless?

I was unaware that the HPEVS had an override for use on the clutch pedal. Nice feature.


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## operationz (Nov 5, 2010)

I drive 280Z EV with a clutchless setup that I'm getting tired of rapidly, especially here in L.A. where everyone is in a hurry, plus downshifting is almost impossible, so I'm ready to make the change back to a clutch setup, I saved all the old parts, but I still need to find a coupler adapter for the flywheel to the motor to do the job. I know CANEV in Canada has the complete setup I need but $825 is a little steep when all I need is the 1 coupler. Hopefully someone knows where I can get one.
Thanks
Joe

1 vote for the clutch


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## nimblemotors (Oct 1, 2010)

I'm guessing you must have a weak controller or batteries?
should be able to leave it in 3rd gear up to freeway speeds.
Now if you drive on freeway where it goes to 55mph then stop, then 55mph then stop, I can see that might be an issue.



operationz said:


> I drive 280Z EV with a clutchless setup that I'm getting tired of rapidly, especially here in L.A. where everyone is in a hurry, plus downshifting is almost impossible, so I'm ready to make the change back to a clutch setup, I saved all the old parts, but I still need to find a coupler adapter for the flywheel to the motor to do the job. I know CANEV in Canada has the complete setup I need but $825 is a little steep when all I need is the 1 coupler. Hopefully someone knows where I can get one.
> Thanks
> Joe
> 
> 1 vote for the clutch


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## operationz (Nov 5, 2010)

nimblemotors said:


> I'm guessing you must have a weak controller or batteries?
> should be able to leave it in 3rd gear up to freeway speeds.
> Now if you drive on freeway where it goes to 55mph then stop, then 55mph then stop, I can see that might be an issue.


Yes, lots of stop & go traffic ... even on the freeway, but then again that the price you pay for good weather. 
Specs: http://evalbum.com/1436


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## nimblemotors (Oct 1, 2010)

Even having a clutch is not going to make it all that better, hate stop-n-go with a manual.
Just limit your top-speed in those situations, you'll be stopping soon anyway..



operationz said:


> Yes, lots of stop & go traffic ... even on the freeway, but then again that the price you pay for good weather.
> Specs: http://evalbum.com/1436


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## Moltenmetal (Mar 20, 2014)

The point of the clutch is to make shifting quick and easy when you need to do it. It's a performance and ease of driving feature- and a risk minimization tool for an amateur like me. You still get all the benefits of the electric motor- broad torque band, high maximum speed etc. Shifting in stop/go traffic is going to be minimal and you likely wouldn't need the clutch, as long as you're willing to let the RPMs go up a bit. But when you need to shift, you can- quick and easy. What's it cost you? A few more wear parts, which aren't really going to wear anywhere nearly as fast as in the original IC engine car. Some additional rotating mass. A more complex and expensive transmission mounting assembly.. But if you take it out and regret it? Going back is a b*tch...

I got PMs from a few AC builders who went either clutchless or transmissionless and regretted it. I wasn't going to risk it- as a totally newbie amateur, I went the CanEV route- pushed the easy button and never looked back.

Going transmissionless entirely is not for the faint of heart. You're going to sacrifice either top end speed or low end pull-away performance, or you'll need a hell of a motor, controller and C rating on your pack. Again, there are very smart people like Duncan here who have managed it.


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## nimblemotors (Oct 1, 2010)

Does this look difficult to you?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4soxWBh91pA

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mCwXfqua84k


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

operationz said:


> I drive 280Z EV with a clutchless setup that I'm getting tired of rapidly, especially here in L.A. where everyone is in a hurry, plus downshifting is almost impossible, so I'm ready to make the change back to a clutch setup, I saved all the old parts, but I still need to find a coupler adapter for the flywheel to the motor to do the job. I know CANEV in Canada has the complete setup I need but $825 is a little steep when all I need is the 1 coupler. Hopefully someone knows where I can get one.
> Thanks
> Joe
> 
> 1 vote for the clutch


Did you keep the flywheel??
If you did then you will probably need a clutch
If you can biff the flywheel your gearbox will probably cope without a clutch


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## Lionstrike (Oct 29, 2011)

I guess this guy makes couplers:
http://www.evcouplerconnection.com/

I've never ordered from him myself though. My plate and adapter came with the motor from the guy I bought it from.


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## operationz (Nov 5, 2010)

Duncan said:


> Did you keep the flywheel??
> If you did then you will probably need a clutch
> If you can biff the flywheel your gearbox will probably cope without a clutch


I have saved everything, entire clutch w/flywheel including the pedal assembly, cylinders & hydraulic lines.

Thanks Lionstrike going to email him for a possible coupler.


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## twright (Aug 20, 2013)

My 2000 Ford Escort was originally clutchless. When the motor to transmission coupler wore out (in 1000 miles), I changed it to a clutched system.

It's so much nice now. Shifting is quick and easy, just like with an ICE engine.

I'm glad I converted.


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## Moltenmetal (Mar 20, 2014)

Nimble, yours looks awesome- no issues there at all. But I've tried shifting mine without the clutch a few times and down- shifting is next to impossible. Maybe I don't have the knack- I'm certain I don't know what I'm doing, and the presence of the flywheel or regen definitely makes a difference. I'm sure it varies from tranny to tranny as well.


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## Lionstrike (Oct 29, 2011)

I've been back and forth on this issue a while and I'll see if I can make what I have work, but I think that I will end up getting that custom adapter and coupler.


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## onegreenev (May 18, 2012)

Lionstrike said:


> I've been back and forth on this issue a while and I'll see if I can make what I have work, but I think that I will end up getting that custom adapter and coupler.


What are you building?


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## Lionstrike (Oct 29, 2011)

1994 Electric Ford Ranger, 2.3L engine, extended cab.

It's my first attempt at doing something this ambitious, so I've got a lot of stuff to do and a lot to learn... especially since I don't have a garage.

It's part of my elaborate plan to take over the world....

http://beerepiphany.files.wordpress.com/2010/04/pinky_brain.jpg

...Or at least to reduce dependence on fossil fuels and promote a greener environment.


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