# [EVDL] Supercapacitors



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

http://www.tecategroup.com/ultracapacitors/ultracapacitors.php
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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Hello Andrew,

Some time ago I contacted ESMA about there supercapacitors which are 
traction types for EV's not the ultra pulse-type capacitors that are use in 
hybreds.

They design a pack of 15 modules that would take the same area as 30 each 6 
volt 250 AM batteries and at the same voltage and would be about 500 lbs 
lighter. These traction type of capacitor actually have a electrolyte. 
They can be charge in with 12 to 15 minutes and can be discharge to 0 SOC 
and work to -50 C.

The negative electrode is made up of activated carbon material which is a 
polorizable electrode.

The positive electrode is faradaic non-polorizable electrode and is made of 
Nickel Oxyhydroxide.

The electrolyte is potassium hydroxide KOH solution which is same as in 
alkaline batteries.

Can take a overvoltage, the energy store is 50-60 J/g, 2.7KF 2700 Farids

In a standard capacitor the voltage is 0.9 volts between the plates and in a 
supercapacitor modules is 1.5 to 1.7 volts. You then need to series 
parallel these modules to get to the voltage and power you need.

The cost was $39,995.00 back in 2003

The range would be only 20 miles. These units are normally use for in town 
vehicles such as buses that have a specific mile loop.

http://www.esma-cap.com/Contacts/?lang=English


Roland


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Andrew Wood" <[email protected]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, December 09, 2009 2:15 PM
Subject: [EVDL] Supercapacitors


> Where can I find out more about them? I dont really know a lot but Im
> interested in the current state of the technology - what they can and
> cant do, who makes them how much they cost etc.
>
> What's their typical Ah capacity compared to batteries and presumably
> they can take umpteen more charge cycles?
>
> Regards
> Andrew
>
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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Andrew,

To put Roland's numbers in perspective, here's some energy density numbers:

High-end Lithium Polymer: 200 Wh/kg
Typical Lithium Iron Phosphate: 100 Wh/kg
Nickel Metal Hydride: 70 Wh/kg
Lead Acid: 30 Wh/kg
Supercapacitors described by Roland: 14-17 Wh/kg

So they weigh about twice as much as lead-acid batteries for the same
energy storage.

Other than that, it's a pretty nice technology.

-Morgan LaMoore



> Andrew Wood <[email protected]> wrote:
> > Where can I find out more about them? I dont really know a lot but Im
> > interested in the current state of the technology - what they can and
> > cant do, who makes them how much they cost etc.
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Thanks
Dave Roland & Morgan

Ill do some investigating.

Regards
Andrew


Morgan LaMoore wrote:
> Andrew,
>
> To put Roland's numbers in perspective, here's some energy density numbers:
>
> High-end Lithium Polymer: 200 Wh/kg
> Typical Lithium Iron Phosphate: 100 Wh/kg
> Nickel Metal Hydride: 70 Wh/kg
> Lead Acid: 30 Wh/kg
> Supercapacitors described by Roland: 14-17 Wh/kg
>
> So they weigh about twice as much as lead-acid batteries for the same
> energy storage.
>
> Other than that, it's a pretty nice technology.
>
> -Morgan LaMoore
>
>


> Andrew Wood <[email protected]> wrote:
> >
> >> Where can I find out more about them? I dont really know a lot but Im
> >> interested in the current state of the technology - what they can and
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Im on the lookout for a "battery" which can be recharged & discharged a 
lot. Preferably only part charged & discharged. In other words abused 
quite badly .

Its saving grace is it doesnt need to be able to go for very long 
without being recharged.


Morgan LaMoore wrote:
> Andrew,
>
> To put Roland's numbers in perspective, here's some energy density numbers:
>
> High-end Lithium Polymer: 200 Wh/kg
> Typical Lithium Iron Phosphate: 100 Wh/kg
> Nickel Metal Hydride: 70 Wh/kg
> Lead Acid: 30 Wh/kg
> Supercapacitors described by Roland: 14-17 Wh/kg
>
> So they weigh about twice as much as lead-acid batteries for the same
> energy storage.
>
> Other than that, it's a pretty nice technology.
>
> -Morgan LaMoore
>
>


> Andrew Wood <[email protected]> wrote:
> >
> >> Where can I find out more about them? I dont really know a lot but Im
> >> interested in the current state of the technology - what they can and
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

You need to be more specific. Exactly how much energy does it need to 
hold, and how much power (peak and sustained).

I'm assuming you looking to build some sort of hybrid?

Sent from my iPhone



> Andrew Wood <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> > Im on the lookout for a "battery" which can be recharged &
> > discharged a
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Something which could deliver about 200 amps for 30 mins roughly. If 
it could do more that would be great but at least that AND cope with 
lots of partial charging cycles

Sent from iPhone

On 13 Dec 2009, at 14:18, Roger Heuckeroth <[email protected]> 
wrote:

> You need to be more specific. Exactly how much energy does it need to
> hold, and how much power (peak and sustained).
>
> I'm assuming you looking to build some sort of hybrid?
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
>


> Andrew Wood <[email protected]> wrote:
> >
> >> Im on the lookout for a "battery" which can be recharged &
> >> discharged a
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Andrew Wood <[email protected]> wrote:
> > Something which could deliver about 200 amps for 30 mins roughly. If
> > it could do more that would be great but at least that AND cope with
> > lots of partial charging cycles
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

At what voltage?



> Andrew Wood wrote:
> 
> > Something which could deliver about 200 amps for 30 mins roughly. If
> > it could do more that would be great but at least that AND cope with
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

120v

Roger Heuckeroth wrote:
> At what voltage?
>
>


> Andrew Wood wrote:
> >
> >
> >> Something which could deliver about 200 amps for 30 mins roughly. If
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

200 amps at 120V for 30 minutes is about 12kWh of energy. Definitely 
not a supercapacitor.



> Andrew Wood wrote:
> 
> > 120v
> >
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

But how would litium batteries fare with lots of incomplete 
charge/discharge cycles?

Roger Heuckeroth wrote:
> 200 amps at 120V for 30 minutes is about 12kWh of energy. Definitely 
> not a supercapacitor.
>
>


> Andrew Wood wrote:
> >
> >
> >> 120v
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

If for example, you want 12 kWh of usable energy, you would go with 
say a 16 kWh pack. This would allow you to stay in the range of say 
80% - 95% DOD (depth of discharge. Then they would fare quite well.

I forget, were you thinking of a hybrid type application?



> Andrew Wood wrote:
> 
> > But how would litium batteries fare with lots of incomplete
> > charge/discharge cycles?
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Andrew Wood <[email protected]> wrote:
> > But how would litium batteries fare with lots of incomplete
> > charge/discharge cycles?
> 
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

No memory effect for the NiCad batteries. That is a myth at least for 
large format flooded NiCads. I heard it was a myth for all NiCad 
batteries. You do have to do some full charge cycles though. They like 
that.

Pete 





> Morgan LaMoore wrote:
> 
> > The "memory effect" is only for NiCd.
> 
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

There is definitely a memory effect for NiCd dry cells. I experienced
this with cell phones, laptop computers and RC model planes and cars.
This is only partially reversible. For the flooded NiCd batteries
there is a memory effect that is reversible through a
discharge/recharge process according to the documentation I've read on
them.



> <[email protected]> wrote:
> > No memory effect for the NiCad batteries. That is a myth at least for
> > large format flooded NiCads. I heard it was a myth for all NiCad
> > batteries. You do have to do some full charge cycles though. They like
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Only if you don't use them all the time. If kept in charge and 
discharge mode every day they will not get the so called memory 
effect. If only cycled sometimes and shallow you can have problems. 
Dry cells only. Flooded cells are don't have trouble there.

Pete 





> David Nelson wrote:
> 
> > There is definitely a memory effect for NiCd dry cells. I experienced
> > this with cell phones, laptop computers and RC model planes and cars.
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> On 1 Jan 2010 at 21:21, David Nelson wrote:
> 
> > There is definitely a memory effect for NiCd dry cells.
> 
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

I have a device which cycles the NiCd pack to combat the voltage
depression though I only heard it called memory effect. It sometimes
worked a little but not always. It is possible that the electronics
which controlled the cycling were fooled by the voltage depression. I
really don't know. I always tried to run my "traction" battery packs
down until the prop wouldn't spin fast enough to keep up with the
glide rate. This seemed to keep the battery lasting longer. They
seemed to like hard use. In a flashlight, I found that if I turned it
on for a few seconds a day the "charge" would last longer than if it
just sat. Maybe use keeps the voltage up?

At least with my LiFePO4s my shallow use won't be an issue.



> EVDL Administrator <[email protected]> wrote:
> > On 1 Jan 2010 at 21:21, David Nelson wrote:
> >
> >> There is definitely a memory effect for NiCd dry cells.
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> David Nelson wrote:
> > I have a device which cycles the NiCd pack to combat the voltage
> > depression though I only heard it called memory effect.
> 
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Lee Hart" <[email protected]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Saturday, January 02, 2010 10:02 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Supercapacitors




> > David Nelson wrote:
> > > I have a device which cycles the NiCd pack to combat the voltage
> > > depression though I only heard it called memory effect.
> >
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> I forget, were you thinking of a hybrid type application?

Yes it is.

Excuse my ignorance but how do you convert the Ah rating into kWh, is 
it the same as converting between watts and amps?

Andrew






> Roger Heuckeroth wrote:
> 
> > If for example, you want 12 kWh of usable energy, you would go with
> > say a 16 kWh pack. This would allow you to stay in the range of say
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Watts is volts times amps. A watt-hour is using one watt for one hour. A
kilowatt-hour is 1000 watt-hours.

Amp-hours times voltage of the pack should roughly give you watt-hours (or
kilowatt-hours if you divide by 1000).

This is one of those instances where keeping track of the units leads to the
correct answer almost automatically.

Mike

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf
Of Andrew Wood
Sent: Sunday, January 03, 2010 2:43 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Supercapacitors

> I forget, were you thinking of a hybrid type application?

Yes it is.

Excuse my ignorance but how do you convert the Ah rating into kWh, is 
it the same as converting between watts and amps?

Andrew






> Roger Heuckeroth wrote:
> 
> > If for example, you want 12 kWh of usable energy, you would go with
> > say a 16 kWh pack. This would allow you to stay in the range of say
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

You said 200 A at 120V for 1/2 hour. That's 120x200x0.5 = 12,000 
watt-hours (12kWh).



Sent from my iPhone



> Andrew Wood <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> >> I forget, were you thinking of a hybrid type application?
> >
> ...


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