# AC55 vs Ford Siemens... FIGHT!!!



## Bowser330 (Jun 15, 2008)

tgrandahl said:


> It does not look like there are threads on here comparing applications of the Solectria or rather Azure Dynamics AC55 vs. the Ford Siemens PV5133-4WS20 W11 motor. I thought it would be good to start one.
> 
> The following is a comparison of the name plate ratings of the two motors. please correct anything that is wrong here, information of the Ford Siemens is getting hard to come by.
> 
> ...


what controller are you going to use with the Siemens motor? Ive heard its really a pain to get one that is kinda of "for" this motor...

And do you know about the whole helical shaft issue?


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## Jon (Jun 18, 2008)

EV Components is selling an AC55 with a UMOC445 controller for $3500. I would consider it but I have a Suzuki Swift/Geo Metro I want to convert. 
http://www.evcomponents.com/


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## tgrandahl (Jan 24, 2009)

Jon said:


> EV Components is selling an AC55 with a UMOC445 controller for $3500. I would consider it but I have a Suzuki Swift/Geo Metro I want to convert.
> http://www.evcomponents.com/


Jon, I did contact ev components about buying a stand alone motor from those sets. Looks like a great deal even though there used.

I am looking for a stand alone motor because building the inverter / controller is part of my project.

Are you considering it for the Suziki / Geo project or would it be intended for something larger? I would think an AC55 could be quite fun in a car like that with a light enough battery back.




> what controller are you going to use with the Siemens motor? Ive heard its really a pain to get one that is kinda of "for" this motor...
> 
> And do you know about the whole helical shaft issue?


The controller is the largest drawback to the siemens motor, there are not any build units publicly available.

However the purpose of my project is to design / build a controller / inverter for whatever motor i choose so this is not an issue in my case.

Eric Tischer has also demonstrated on this forum how a taper lock can be used to couple to the helical shaft.


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## wenowhavepower (Dec 24, 2008)

I also want to start with AC as my first project (Honda Civic 95 4 Door).
Where are you getting the AC55 for around $1200 shipped ?
As wondering why http://www.evcomponents.com/ has it for $3,500 (which would mean charging 2,300 for the Inverter/controller).

One thing about the Siemens, it's 55 lbs lighter.

I'm actually planning on doing a Hybrid (yes yes i know) but don't want to be left out one day in New York City traffic!


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## Jon (Jun 18, 2008)

tgrandahl said:


> Are you considering it for the Suziki / Geo project or would it be intended for something larger? I would think an AC55 could be quite fun in a car like that with a light enough battery back.


I think the AC55 is far too large for a little metro. I am considering the new Curtis 1238 and the AC31 that Thunderstruck is selling:
http://www.thunderstruck-ev.com/AC_drive_performance.htm
I want to wait until a little more info is available.


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## tgrandahl (Jan 24, 2009)

Jon said:


> I think the AC55 is far too large for a little metro. I am considering the new Curtis 1238 and the AC31 that Thunderstruck is selling:
> http://www.thunderstruck-ev.com/AC_drive_performance.htm
> I want to wait until a little more info is available.


Yes the AC55 could be a bit much for a car that size. The curtis motor looks to be much more appropriate. Interesting that they rate it at 110ftlb torque, that aboutj 150Nm so im assuming thats peak torque and not continuous?

Its hard to tell, the only torque curve they provide on the website looks to be for the AC-12 or AC-09. 

Does anyone know if these are peek or contuous ratings?

You would also be getting a new motor vs. the used AC55 package. Do they come with any sort of warranty?




> I also want to start with AC as my first project (Honda Civic 95 4 Door).
> Where are you getting the AC55 for around $1200 shipped ?
> As wondering why http://www.evcomponents.com/ has it for $3,500 (which would mean charging 2,300 for the Inverter/controller).
> 
> ...


Hey there, great to know someone else is doing hybrids in here! What type of system are you planning, I am not aware of any AWD civics.

I quoted $1200 as thats around the price most people have picked used ones for, sorry if I got you excited. However EA will rebuild them for only $800 I hear.

The evcomponents price is also for a slightly used system but hey there is not much to go wrong in an ac system anyways.

The siemens motor is a good bit lighter, I think the AC55 is all steel frame construction and the Ford Siemens is mostly Alu from the looks. Again, is this worth the price?

For me to reason that much extra money, I will need to know that I can push the Ford Siemens motor that much further.


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## wenowhavepower (Dec 24, 2008)

Yeup, no awd civics but it's not needed. Pretty much following http://www.diyelectriccar.com/garage/cars/3 , same scenario but hopefully i'll be getting rid of the automatic transmission (that's what the current car has :-( ). Would like to replace it with Azuredynamics gearbox instead (or any other) : http://www.electroauto.com/catalog/acgearbox.shtml

Got the inspiration for the hybrid via http://www.motherearthnews.com/Renewable-Energy/1979-07-01/An-Amazing-75-MPG-Hybrid-Electic-Car.aspx
but that one is DC system (and old) but pretty much basing it off this.

Of course i do plan to hopefully be mostly electric (as in running mostly off the batteries) but would like the peace of mind of having a back-up.

Currently no 100% plan yet as I currently just have all (or most) the information needed (too much!!), so just need to take some good amount of time to make one.


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## tgrandahl (Jan 24, 2009)

wenowhavepower said:


> Yeup, no awd civics but it's not needed. Pretty much following http://www.diyelectriccar.com/garage/cars/3 , same scenario but hopefully i'll be getting rid of the automatic transmission (that's what the current car has :-( ). Would like to replace it with Azuredynamics gearbox instead (or any other) : http://www.electroauto.com/catalog/acgearbox.shtml
> 
> Got the inspiration for the hybrid via http://www.motherearthnews.com/Renewable-Energy/1979-07-01/An-Amazing-75-MPG-Hybrid-Electic-Car.aspx
> but that one is DC system (and old) but pretty much basing it off this.
> ...


If your looking for a Azure Dynamics / Solecria system with that gearbox, you might want to make this guy an offer.

So will you be trying to keep the original Honda engine in the vehicle then and couple it to a separate generator?


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## wenowhavepower (Dec 24, 2008)

hah, i saw that today as well!

Not sure yet! don't want to commit to anything until i have a good solid plan.
The AC55 does NOT have a matching gearbox so that AC42 looking pretty good.

Planning to remove the current Honda Engine (too heavy) with like Motor cycle engine or moped engine and attach it to a generator (first have to find a high efficiency light engine to match it with efficient generator, rpm per rpm). Need to do more research on that part.

By the way, i meant series Hybrid.


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## tgrandahl (Jan 24, 2009)

wenowhavepower said:


> hah, i saw that today as well!
> 
> Not sure yet! don't want to commit to anything until i have a good solid plan.
> The AC55 does NOT have a matching gearbox so that AC42 looking pretty good.
> ...



Ok this makes much more sense now.

I had done some looking into the AC42, it is discontinued as far as Azure Dynamics is concerned. They did not provide me with any information on it.

This paper documents a parallel hybrid university of Wisconsin did using one. They list some basic output curves and other data so I found it useful.

There are a few other projects that have used them if you search around.

If you haven't calculated your needs it probably is a bad idea to go impulse buying expensive things .

I am curious how efficient the series model will work out though, will definitely follow this.


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## etischer (Jun 16, 2008)

I took the data from the two horsepower curves you linked for the Siemens and AC55 Motors. You can see the Siemens motor has much more area under the curve. 

http://www.azuredynamics.com/products/force-drive/documents/AC55_DMOC445ProductSheet.pdf

http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=3560&d=1246410731

Also note the AC55 data states 400A peak, the Siemens graph states only 280A peak. 

The Siemens motor is clearly the better motor, especially if you are using a fixed gear ratio.


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## lottos (Jun 22, 2008)

etischer said:


> The Siemens motor is clearly the better motor, especially if you are using a fixed gear ratio.


Fine German technology - yours is also in a German car!


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## tgrandahl (Jan 24, 2009)

etischer said:


> The Siemens motor is clearly the better motor, especially if you are using a fixed gear ratio.


Wow it really does shout out at you when you overlap it like that.

The max torque ratings from both those documents bother me.

I notice in your "trending software" post on your website it looks like you had a 280A max current?

Have you upped that limit when you say "now I'm using 430 amps", and have you calculated the motor torque at the current?


P.S. I was able to get a Ford Siemens motor locally(ish)


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## etischer (Jun 16, 2008)

I have a hunch the current rating on the Siemens motor is per-phase, while the AC55 is quoting the sum of current on all three phases. This is probably why the AC55 (400A) is producing less horsepower than the Siemens (280A)

My controller can put out up to 295A per phase. This makes it look like less horsepower than the AC55, but if you add my three phases together, you can say the motor current is 510A. Traditionally motor current is stated per phase though. 

Maybe someone with an AC55 can confirm?





tgrandahl said:


> Wow it really does shout out at you when you overlap it like that.
> 
> The max torque ratings from both those documents bother me.
> 
> ...


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## tgrandahl (Jan 24, 2009)

etischer said:


> I have a hunch the current rating on the Siemens motor is per-phase, while the AC55 is quoting the sum of current on all three phases. This is probably why the AC55 (400A) is producing less horsepower than the Siemens (280A)


Ooh I think you nailed it. Line current in a delta circuit is sqrt(3)*phase current.

sooo 400A/sqrt(3)=230A Pk per phase for the AC55.

Still working on getting the same pk power values from the plot. The voltage listed is battery voltage so i am assuming that would be pk-pk line to neutral voltage in a normal three phase system?


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## ehustinx (Dec 23, 2009)

tgrandahl said:


> Ooh I think you nailed it. Line current in a delta circuit is sqrt(3)*phase current.
> 
> sooo 400A/sqrt(3)=230A Pk per phase for the AC55.
> 
> Still working on getting the same pk power values from the plot. The voltage listed is battery voltage so i am assuming that would be pk-pk line to neutral voltage in a normal three phase system?


Hi,

The max phase current for the Siemens motor is specified at 280 Arms. The max phase current for the AC55 motor is specified at 400 A (peak) which is about 280 Arms (400/sqrt(2)).

Best regards,

Eddy Hustinx
HEC
www.hec-drives.com


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