# 3-phase industrial AC motor, can it be used as is?



## vrsi367 (Jul 26, 2021)

Hello community,

I've found a couple of posts online selling two industrial motors near where I live, 10HP and 15HP both are 3600 rpm. If I understand correctly the power is enough to use in a small car re-using the manual gearbox to maximize the torque at different speeds, but apart from that I have no clue where to start with the conversion using those kind of motors.

A few questions to see if I can start wrapping my head around the technicalities of these kind of conversions.

¿Do the battery bank need to be 220V DC or can it be 108V or even less for those motors? I would prefer no to have to rewind them.

Follow up question, sort of, ¿what kind of equipment would allow to convert DC voltage to the 3-phase AC voltage needed for the motors, and also would allow for controlling the rotation speed and direction?

¿Can that kind those kind of motors be used as a generators when the vehicle is decelerating, if so what kind of equipment would be needed to enable that functionality?

I have a background in electronics engineering but I'm a bit rusty, and would need to undust my notes to see what can I do to complete the task.

Any help or comment is very much appreciated.


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## cricketo (Oct 4, 2018)

All the magic is in the motor controller (inverter). It will have an allowable input voltage range, and allowable output range for the motor. So you start by finding one that will be able to put out what you need for the motor, and then see what it can do on the DC side to decide on the battery pack voltage.


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## vrsi367 (Jul 26, 2021)

cricketo said:


> All the magic is in the motor controller (inverter). It will have an allowable input voltage range, and allowable output range for the motor. So you start by finding one that will be able to put out what you need for the motor, and then see what it can do on the DC side to decide on the battery pack voltage.


Thanks a lot.


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## Jordan325ic (Jun 8, 2021)

Do you have any idea of the size and weight of these motors? Quite often industrial motors are far too large and heavy for a given power output to be considered for EV applications.


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## vrsi367 (Jul 26, 2021)

Jordan325ic said:


> Do you have any idea of the size and weight of these motors? Quite often industrial motors are far too large and heavy for a given power output to be considered for EV applications.


You are right, the one with 10HP output seems about 167 lbs, it's like about 45% heavier than some motors I've seen in some conversion kits, besides its only 10HP.

The price is about $180 each motor though, so perhaps if I could find a controller that I could reuse later with a proper EV motor it might worth a try, although I'm not entirely sure.


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## Jordan325ic (Jun 8, 2021)

vrsi367 said:


> You are right, the one with 10HP output seems about 167 lbs, it's like about 45% heavier than some motors I've seen in some conversion kits, besides its only 10HP.
> 
> The price is about $180 each motor though, so perhaps if I could find a controller that I could reuse later with a proper EV motor it might worth a try, although I'm not entirely sure.


I mean, you can find 10hp continuous motors designed for EVs that come in at less than 40lbs.

Aside from the controller, you're also going to be doing custom motor mounts, figuring out how to hook it up to the driveshaft or transmission and getting all the packaging right. All needing to be redone when you switch to a more capable motor. Even if you can get industrial induction motors totally free, it would still be worth it to start with a motor designed for traction applications rather than starting with a huge industrial motor. Unless this is some sort of budget-challenge '$2000 EV!".


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## vrsi367 (Jul 26, 2021)

Jordan325ic said:


> ... Even if you can get industrial induction motors totally free, it would still be worth it to start with a motor designed for traction applications rather than starting with a huge industrial motor.


I totally see your point.



Jordan325ic said:


> Unless this is some sort of budget-challenge '$2000 EV!".


It is sort of a budget-challenge, EV conversions in the country where I live, Venezuela, are like 20 years behind the rest of the world. Even the neighboring country, Colombia, has some nice conversions that are already more than 10 years old. The problem in Venezuela was that gasoline was practically free, and EV conversions never had a chance to develop in the country. Now the current situation screams for the need of EV, but most people can't afford even a cheap conversion kit let alone a new EV. So, I've been talking with my brother to see if we can come up with something that could be done for people in Venezuela with $1000 or less excluding the battery pack.


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## cricketo (Oct 4, 2018)

vrsi367 said:


> I totally see your point.
> 
> 
> 
> It is sort of a budget-challenge, EV conversions in the country where I live, Venezuela, are like 20 years behind the rest of the world. Even the neighboring country, Colombia, has some nice conversions that are already more than 10 years old. The problem in Venezuela was that gasoline was practically free, and EV conversions never had a chance to develop in the country. Now the current situation screams for the need of EV, but most people can't afford even a cheap conversion kit let alone a new EV. So, I've been talking with my brother to see if we can come up with something that could be done for people in Venezuela with $1000 or less excluding the battery pack.


What about motors from industrial machinery ? Forklifts, boom lifts, etc ?


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## vrsi367 (Jul 26, 2021)

cricketo said:


> What about motors from industrial machinery ? Forklifts, boom lifts, etc ?


Thanks for your suggestion. I'm going to look for those too. I made a quick search and it seems most of those that are sold online here where I live are propane or diesel powered, but if I can find one with an electric motor that I can use I'll report back.


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

vrsi367 said:


> I've found a couple of posts online selling two industrial motors near where I live, 10HP and 15HP both are 3600 rpm.


The rated speed will be what they run at with 60 Hz AC power; they will run faster or slower by changing the frequency of the supplied power, which is what a controller/inverter does. The rated power is at the rated speed and is likely what they can handle continuously. In a car, they could probably be run faster and run much harder in brief bursts.

However....


vrsi367 said:


> Do the battery bank need to be 220V DC or can it be 108V or even less for those motors? I would prefer no to have to rewind them.


Assuming they're three-phase, if you check the specs you'll likely find that they are wound for 480 V... and that's a root-mean-square voltage, so the DC voltage needed to deliver that is much higher. Variations of industrial motors made for EV use are wound for much lower voltage.



vrsi367 said:


> Follow up question, sort of, ¿what kind of equipment would allow to convert DC voltage to the 3-phase AC voltage needed for the motors, and also would allow for controlling the rotation speed and direction?


That's what the controller/inverter does. In a car, you normally don't try to control the speed - you control the torque, and the controller follows the motor speed.



vrsi367 said:


> ¿Can that kind those kind of motors be used as a generators when the vehicle is decelerating, if so what kind of equipment would be needed to enable that functionality?


Yes, if these are any common type of three-phase motor (likely induction) they can act as a generator so they can provide regenerative braking - it's a normal feature of the controller/inverter.


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## vrsi367 (Jul 26, 2021)

@brian_ , thanks so much.


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## MattsAwesomeStuff (Aug 10, 2017)

My forklift motor I think is rated for 17hp continuous, 52hp for 15% duty cycle. It's 250 lbs.

Lots of forklift motors are rated ~15hp and there's guys using them upwards of 400hp in drag races.

Generally I'd say they're not spec'd for any airflow, so, in a car with a fan you'd probably get a lot more out of them.

It's almost a non-issue anyway because if you're using the motor that heavily you'll probably run out of battery before you accumulate enough temperature rise.

I'd say it would probably work fine, and if it's free and you're interested then go ahead, but it's probably not a good way to go.

Probably the cheapest and easiest way to convert is to take a 2nd or 3rd generation Prius transaxle and inverter ($150 + $150 at most at a junkyard, often can get them for $50 total), and then use the swap-out control board from OpenInverter.org (2nd gen) or EVBMW.com (3rd gen). That gives you bulletproof engineering for dollarstore prices.


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

MattsAwesomeStuff said:


> My forklift motor I think is rated for 17hp continuous, 52hp for 15% duty cycle. It's 250 lbs.
> 
> Lots of forklift motors are rated ~15hp and there's guys using them upwards of 400hp in drag races.
> ...
> ...


Sure, and to get that higher power you supply higher voltage. If they're brushed DC motors from forklifts rated for 36 volts DC, that's easy. If they're actually 3-phase industrial AC motors (as described in the title) all you have to do with these lumps is provide the inverter with a couple thousand volts to get them going usefully. 

Matt, did you miss the title, or did you assume that these are low-voltage 3-phase AC motors from something like a newer forklift? Perhaps they are.


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## rishimaze (May 23, 2021)

I skimmed through the posts. Hopefully I'm not repeating what was already said too badly!
1. Industrial induction motors are heavy and low power density for the weight and size. However, they last forever so reliability is going to be great.
2. Tesla uses Induction motors and have been for many years. They can be very EV worthy.
3. A 3 phase induction motor designed around 110v per phase or 220v per phase will probably do best at that voltage. Running it at lower voltage is doable, but then you will probably need to raise the amperage in the motor and that will make it run hotter.
4. I don't recommend brushed motors becasue they are not very efficient. There are tons of old fork lifts out there with perfectly good motors in them for cheap...so why not? Most are 48v systems and I think you will do better at more like 100v. The forklift controller is probably ancient tech and replacing it with something new is worth it to get 100v and proper motor control that is recent.
5. Weight is always a concern. Old and cheap (fork lift motor) probably means lots of weight and hugeness.
6. A BLDC motor at probably half the weigh and size will outperform whatever forklift motor you might get and be more efficient too.
7. Just my opinion I suppose, but I'd go with a hybrid car BLDC or PMAC motor and not bother with some other motor technology. Both PMAC and BLDC are the same wind, just different ways to sense armature position. Put halls in a PMAC and now its BLDC. Put a optical wheel in a BLDC and now it's PMAC. Controllers for both of these types of motors are easy to find and abundant. 
8. If I found a forklift with a PMAC or BLDC motor in it...that could be a good find. Otherwise, brushed stuff is heavy, poor efficicny and huge. Why would you want that? I guess free or very low cost could make it compelling. 
9. You can find used hybrid car motors easily enough and not break the bank. I think all hybrid cars use PMAC or BLDC motors in them and they are abundant and cheap! Some hybrids build the motor into the drive train. Others have it as an add-on and those motors are in their own shell. Buick was making hybrids like that for a while. I think so was Ford. They put a motor on the serpentine belt. That's a great option for DIY project.
10. I bet in your local junk yards you will find hybrid cars that you can grab the motor, inverter and battery for your project.


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

rishimaze said:


> 1. Industrial induction motors are heavy and low power density for the weight and size. However, they last forever so reliability is going to be great.


True of anything industrial - motors or otherwise. 



rishimaze said:


> 2. Tesla uses Induction motors and have been for many years. They can be very EV worthy.


Tesla... and everyone else for a couple of decades, including the limited production vehicles of two decades ago (remember the GM EV-1, Ford Ranger EV, and the docu-fiction "Who Killed the Electric Car?"). Tesla has almost completed their transition away from induction to PM, but induction is still a viable choice - Audi, for instance, has recently chosen to use induction motors.

Although a three-phase industrial motor is most likely induction, whether the motors are induction or not is not really the issue.



rishimaze said:


> 3. A 3 phase induction motor designed around 110v per phase or 220v per phase will probably do best at that voltage. Running it at lower voltage is doable, but then you will probably need to raise the amperage in the motor and that will make it run hotter.


AC voltages are root-mean-squared - the peak-to-peak voltage is much higher. And three-phase motors at only 110 V or so (even phase voltage which is line-to-neutral) are unusual. Line-to-line voltage is always 1.732 (square root of 3) times the line-to-neutral (or phase) voltage. Even 120 V (phase) / 208 V (line-to-line), which I think is the lowest available three-phase power in North America and is used in commercial buildings but not much industrially, is 208 VRMS line-to-line, so the inverter would need more than 208 V DC supply. 208 VRMS would be 208*sqrt(2) V peak, or 2*208*sqrt(2) V = 588 V peak-to-peak... so you need a 588 volt battery to feed an inverter to make 120/208 V 3-phase power.

So... 588 VDC to match the rated performance, and higher voltage to be useful.



rishimaze said:


> 7. Just my opinion I suppose, but I'd go with a hybrid car BLDC or PMAC motor...


Yes, but the question was whether or not the 3-phase AC industrial motors that _vrsi367_ has are useful.


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## MattsAwesomeStuff (Aug 10, 2017)

brian_ said:


> Matt, did you miss the title, or did you assume that these are low-voltage 3-phase AC motors from something like a newer forklift?


Neither/both.

I did see that they were industrial mains-powered motors, but I didn't consider that their voltages are likely well above "normal" voltages, and probably 480vac, not 220vac.

3600 rpm is in the right ballpark.



> is 208 VRMS line-to-line, so the inverter would need more than 208 V DC supply. 208 VRMS would be 208*sqrt(2) V peak, or 2*208*sqrt(2) V = 588 V peak-to-peak... so you need a 588 volt battery to feed an inverter to make 120/208 V 3-phase power.


Mmmm... I'm not sure that's true, but now that you've said it, it has me second-guessing myself.

The 1.4x voltage to get peak from RMS is true, but I didn't think you need to double it again to account for peak-to-peak. The point of an inverter is that it inverts the voltage to a negative pulse. The inverter isn't like, a center-tapped transformer that gives half the voltage positive and the other half negative.


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

MattsAwesomeStuff said:


> The 1.4x voltage to get peak from RMS is true, but I didn't think you need to double it again to account for peak-to-peak. The point of an inverter is that it inverts the voltage to a negative pulse. The inverter isn't like, a center-tapped transformer that gives half the voltage positive and the other half negative.


I started working through an explanation of why this is not true, because there is no neutral (it is a delta connection), and realized that Matt is likely correct. My turn to second-guess. 

In a typical inverter, each of the three phase outputs is driven by two devices (such as IGBTs) connected to the two sides of the DC supply. As a result, output voltage is limited to the DC voltage, but it goes positive and negative by that magnitude: if you look at the voltage between X and Y (for instance), at one extreme X is more positive than Y by VBATT, and at the other extreme X is more negative than Y by VBATT... so the peak-to-peak voltage looks like 2*VBATT.

It's still a substantial battery voltage just to provide the low rated power, a lot to improve on that, and an unreasonable voltage if the motor is wound for a common industrial phase voltage such as 480 V or 600 V.


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## MattsAwesomeStuff (Aug 10, 2017)

brian_ said:


> It's still a substantial battery voltage just to provide the low rated power, a lot to improve on that, and an unreasonable voltage if the motor is wound for a common industrial phase voltage such as 480 V or 600 V.


Yeah no argument there.

It's certainly the upper end of what commercial power would have available. I've seen motors that size on lathes for example. But anything pushing from commercial to industrial is going to be run a lot higher voltage.

~310v is okay for a conversion. 680v is not unless you're building it with 18650s, and then, I'm not sure what you'd be using for an inverter.


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

MattsAwesomeStuff said:


> ... and then, I'm not sure what you'd be using for an inverter.


Ironically, the most practical way to handle the high voltage necessary to use a really cheap motor is to buy an inverter which costs as much as a used EV, such as a Cascadia unit.


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## Ivansgarage (Sep 3, 2011)

bla bla


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## MattsAwesomeStuff (Aug 10, 2017)

Ivansgarage said:


> Simple answer NO and don't believe any of the experts on here... read my website, and search for mizlplix on here...


So, naysaying without actually contributing anything. Too lazy to even write out a URL. Great.

Seems that you sell motor rewinding services? Big shocker.

Nothing wrong with having an open discussion where you tell everyone they're wrong, but, at least contribute something other than declarations and vilifications.


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## Ivansgarage (Sep 3, 2011)

ssssss


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## MattsAwesomeStuff (Aug 10, 2017)

Ivansgarage said:


> just posted through the years trying to help people with real data and the shit we went through


Well, what you've said isn't help or "real data". It's just showing up and saying "No, and everyone else is wrong."

I read your page on how you did motor rewinding, looks very professional. But it also doesn't back up what you said.

If you want to help, then it would be helpful to explain _why_ this won't work, what the major obstacle is, and why rewinding is certainly necessary. Also, if there's parts of what other people said that are wrong, it would be helpful to point out which parts, and again, explain why. That would be a useful and helpful discussion.

Abrupt declarations don't help anyone learn anything.


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## Ivansgarage (Sep 3, 2011)

waist of time


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## cricketo (Oct 4, 2018)

Ivansgarage said:


> You are the one that needs to do explaining, what controller are you gonna use, there is no controller that will run an off the shelf 3 phase motor, FOR and electric vehicle, pedal to the metal, you are talking 450 + amps and right around 60-80 amps cruise, NO off the self motor is gonna handle that, with there 3 or four 18 to 24 gauge wires... got it.... Just look at the max amps on a off the self motor... do you think those numbers are just BS? IF I was you, look at the Curtis Controllers with a cooling plate behind them, and retain your radiator with a small electric fan.... I started with a 5 hp motor, My last wind was 12 gauge wire, 8 in hand, 3 turns, four poles, LOCKED rotor, 225 foot pounds of torque... LOCKED rotor, understand?
> 
> Winding a motor by hand, With no pole connections...
> 
> ...


I only understood half of the things you wrote, mainly because your communication style sucks. Like others said, if you want to be helpful, do it the right way.

The main concern seems to be the fact these motors are intended for higher voltages (thinner winding wires) to achieve their rated power, and since it may be difficult (or impossible?) to find a motor controller that will deliver such voltages, the idea may be a non-starter.

Edit:
Sevcon has a line of high voltage controllers, up to 800VDC. Here is the datasheet Gen4 HVLP
The problem with these is their extremely high cost and also complexity of programming. Perhaps if scoring a used one for cheap was an option.


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## MattsAwesomeStuff (Aug 10, 2017)

Ivansgarage said:


> You are the one that needs to do explaining,


I did explain.

I might be wrong about it, perhaps you could be convincing, but I did explain.

You keep just being vague and making people beg for breadcrumbs of explanation. It's tedious to have a discussion with you.



> there is no controller that will run an off the shelf 3 phase motor, FOR and electric vehicle, pedal to the metal, you are talking 450 + amps and right around 60-80 amps cruise,


Umm, sure there is. Any OpenInverter board would. The OP is an electrical engineer, I think he can figure it out.

A Prius Gen 3 inverter can handle 600V, 350 + 250 = 600 amps, and you can pick them up for $50-150. Just swap out the control board with the one of the exact same form factor from EVBMW.com. It even has a built-in boost converter to push the ~200v up to 600v (albeit, at some fraction of the inverter's full power).

A motor is a motor, it might not be an optimum choice (as almost everyone has said, probably not a good idea... advice that you said makes "everyone wrong"), but it's certainly workable.



> NO off the self motor is gonna handle that, with there 3 or four 18 to 24 gauge wires.


Huh? What 15hp motor is going to have 24g (0.5mm, 0.02") wires? Wires that'll melt at 0.5A? How the hell are they getting 15hp out of 0.5 amp wiring? One designed to run on 22,000+ volts? What a ridiculous claim.

Like, I get it, yeah, if you were insistent on using it, it's probably easier to rewire it with heavier duty wire instead and lower voltage. But, that's not the only solution. It doesn't make everyone other than you instantly "wrong", and, it doesn't particularly make your solution all that good either.



> IF I was you, look at the Curtis Controllers with a cooling plate behind them,


What is this, 2012? Who the hell is buying janky Curtis controllers in 2021? The world has moved on.


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## Ivansgarage (Sep 3, 2011)

I give up, no more post.........


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

MattsAwesomeStuff said:


> So, naysaying without actually contributing anything. Too lazy to even write out a URL. Great.
> 
> ...
> 
> Nothing wrong with having an open discussion where you tell everyone they're wrong, but, at least contribute something other than declarations and vilifications.


I absolutely agree.



MattsAwesomeStuff said:


> Seems that you sell motor rewinding services? Big shocker.


While _Ivansgarage_ is apparently ashamed of what he posted (and so he deleted it), it does appear that he missed the point of the original question of the thread, which was clearly expressed in the title: "3-phase industrial AC motor, can it be used as is?" Rewinding a motor (which would address the operating voltage issue) is clearly not using the motor as-is.


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

Ivansgarage said:


> waist of time


Yes, your attacks and nonsense certainly are a waste of time. But not a "waist" of time- what would that be, time above the hips and below the chest?


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

cricketo said:


> The main concern seems to be the fact these motors are intended for higher voltages (thinner winding wires) to achieve their rated power, and since it may be difficult (or impossible?) to find a motor controller that will deliver such voltages, the idea may be a non-starter.


Yes, that's the issue (relatively high voltage) which I identified from the first day of this discussion... although the voltage issue is with the battery as well as with the controller. The relatively high voltage means that the current is relatively low. Of course if pushing any motor past the rated power handling the associated current is always a concern... largely with cooling.


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

> NO off the self motor is gonna handle that, with there 3 or four 18 to 24 gauge wires.





MattsAwesomeStuff said:


> Huh? What 15hp motor is going to have 24g (0.5mm, 0.02") wires? Wires that'll melt at 0.5A? How the hell are they getting 15hp out of 0.5 amp wiring? One designed to run on 22,000+ volts? What a ridiculous claim.


He presumably meant three or four 18 to 24 gauge wires in parallel, for each of the three phase windings.

I'm not going to bother trying to work out the actual RMS phase currents, but 12 kW (as an example) at 480 volts RMS (a typical industrial phase voltage) would be (with unity power factor, which I realize is unrealistic) is only 25 amps RMS... split between three phases. If 18 gauge is good for 7 amps in general wiring service (who knows what is tolerable in a motor stator) and there are several of them, this is in the right order of magnitude.


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

The industrial motors are likely induction motors. There are three general sources of induction motors used in EVs:

motors built specifically for EVs and designed for EV battery voltage - Tesla's original motors (mostly now replaced by PM motors) are the best-known example
industrial motors ordered with windings suited to EV battery voltage - the Siemens motors used by Azure Dynamics (and still allegedly available from some EV conversion component suppliers) are a well-known example
industrial motor frames and rotors completed as EV motors by winding them for the desired voltage - HPEVS is the remaining big supplier of these
In all of these cases, the frame and other details are chosen to be of reasonable weight for the application. Even if rewound, a typical industrial motor is likely to be relatively heavy for the power output, because it is not designed to be carried around in a vehicle.


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

Ivansgarage said:


> I started with a 5 hp motor, My last wind was 12 gauge wire, 8 in hand, 3 turns, four poles, LOCKED rotor, 225 foot pounds of torque... LOCKED rotor, understand?


Since repeating a term, even in capital letters, does nothing at all to help anyone understand it:


In motor winding, "*in hand*" means in parallel, referring to the way a person doing this manually has multiple pieces of wire in their hand as they wind the wire into the motor (the stator, in this case). 
8 wires in parallel, each 12-gauge, can carry a lot of current as required for the low-voltage configuration of this rewound motor.
Multiple small wires in parallel are easier to fit into the stator slots and bend around the turns than one large wire of the same total cross-sectional area and current-carrying capacity; 8 x 12 ga has the same capacity as one 3-gauge wire.
This is irrelevant to anyone who is not winding (or rewinding) a motor, and this thread is about using a motor without modification, so the motor wouldn't be rewound.

A *"locked" rotor* is not turning, whether it is held stationary for testing or just unable to turn the shaft because it is not producing enough torque. 
Mechanically, especially when talking about engines and hydrodynamic devices (such as a torque converter in an automatic transmission) this is referred to as "stall". 
In driving an EV, this is the situation in which the vehicle is stationary and the motor is being powered but the vehicle hasn't started moving yet because the accelerator ("throttle" control) hasn't been pushed far enough. The extreme would be if something was holding the car back (e.g. the brake is on) and the accelerator is fully applied. 
This the highest-current case for an electric motor. It is a big deal for induction motors operated on a fixed frequency power supply (so just "plugged into the wall" instead of having a variable frequency drive such as the inverter used in an EV).


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## CaptD (May 6, 2021)

I have to sell my [edited by moderator]


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## MattsAwesomeStuff (Aug 10, 2017)

CaptD said:


> I have to sell my


Take it to a classifieds thread if you'd like to sell something.


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## rishimaze (May 23, 2021)

MattsAwesomeStuff said:


> The point of an inverter is that it inverts the voltage to a negative pulse. The inverter isn't like, a center-tapped transformer that gives half the voltage positive and the other half negative.


An inverter is a clever bit of kit! From the perspective of the device, it sees real AC. The inverter is simply taking the DC voltage from the battery and switching which end of the device is connected to batt+ or batt-. Do this back and forth in a nice sinusoidal way and the device needing AC "thinks" it's getting AC. The device "sees" positive and negative going portions of a sine wave so it's happy. This isn't rocket science and it is well known. Never the less...I do like why it works.


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## Kiwimike (Aug 4, 2021)

vrsi367 said:


> It is sort of a budget-challenge, EV conversions in the country where I live, Venezuela, are like 20 years behind the rest of the world. Even the neighboring country, Colombia, has some nice conversions that are already more than 10 years old. The problem in Venezuela was that gasoline was practically free, and EV conversions never had a chance to develop in the country. Now the current situation screams for the need of EV, but most people can't afford even a cheap conversion kit let alone a new EV. So, I've been talking with my brother to see if we can come up with something that could be done for people in Venezuela with $1000 or less excluding the battery pack.


Saludos! For what its worth, its not just Venezuela. I'm in Brazil and its very hard to do something like this, and its the same for our whole region. *Its economics*, anything new regarding motors, controllers and batteries are very expensive. When this type of equipment breaks down, a forklift for example, it will almost always be more cost effective to repair it, even if that means rewinding the motor! Machines and equipment are used to the very very end and beyond, this is why we don't have forklift scrapyards or affordable used parts. At least your gasoline is cheap. We are now paying international prices thanks to our congress selling us out. We pay literally double what is was 4 years ago.

As a side note, our countries for all intense purposes DON'T have hybrid cars. There is no demand, no incentives to have them and if the likes of Toyota had launched the Prius, for example, as an affordable car in every country there would have been a supply shock driving up the price of batteries. So there are no hybrid parts unfortunately.

Only recently we can actually buy them here in Brazil, but you'd have to be rich to get one. The minimum wage is R$1000/month, most people earn R$3-4k a month. A Rav4 hybrid is R$220,000. Just to put things in perspective, because we come on here making questions about industrial ac motors and the likes and you think guys think we're crazy!! But we're just desperate for options...


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

Kiwimike said:


> ... Just to put things in perspective, because we come on here making questions about industrial ac motors and the likes and you think guys think we're crazy!!


I don't think you're crazy. 
Some of us realize that economic and business reality varies by location.


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## MattsAwesomeStuff (Aug 10, 2017)

Kiwimike said:


> for all intense purposes


The phrase is "for all *intents* and *purposes*". Not "intensive purposes". One's purpose need not be intensive (i.e. extreme, pushed near its maximum), it is a separate reason from one's intentions (i.e. what you would like to do with it).

You use the phrase when making a difference between something extreme that is literally true, versus not literally true very close to it, but are just going to declare it like it is literally true anyways. I.E. In your case, there surely are some hybrid vehicles in Brazil, but from a DIY salvager's perspective, for all intents and purposes there aren't any.

That is, for whatever reason you may have intentions to use that information, or for whatever purposes you may have for it, Brazil has no hybrids.

It's a moderately commonly misused phrase in English too.


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## cricketo (Oct 4, 2018)

MattsAwesomeStuff said:


> The phrase is "for all *intents* and *purposes*". Not "intensive purposes". One's purpose need not be intensive (i.e. extreme, pushed near its maximum), it is a separate reason from one's intentions (i.e. what you would like to do with it).
> 
> You use the phrase when making a difference between something extreme that is literally true, versus not literally true very close to it, but are just going to declare it like it is literally true anyways. I.E. In your case, there surely are some hybrid vehicles in Brazil, but from a DIY salvager's perspective, for all intents and purposes there aren't any.
> 
> ...


That's rough.


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## Kiwimike (Aug 4, 2021)

MattsAwesomeStuff said:


> The phrase is "for all *intents* and *purposes*". Not "intensive purposes". One's purpose need not be intensive (i.e. extreme, pushed near its maximum), it is a separate reason from one's intentions (i.e. what you would like to do with it).
> 
> You use the phrase when making a difference between something extreme that is literally true, versus not literally true very close to it, but are just going to declare it like it is literally true anyways. I.E. In your case, there surely are some hybrid vehicles in Brazil, but from a DIY salvager's perspective, for all intents and purposes there aren't any.
> 
> ...


Hahaha... well i didn't expect to get completely schooled on my English on here!!! While i have a hard time listening to my favourite youtube channels where 90% struggle to get their plurals right (in English), you know what i mean i'm sure, i'll have to welcome the lesson. But you're right, and in my defence this was a case where the expression sounded about right so i didn't even think about the actual word being used. Thats the nature of an expression i guess...

Generally our expressions in English have their Portuguese/Spanish equivalents, often literal translations, but this is a rare case where i have not come across this expression in Portuguese.


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## Kiwimike (Aug 4, 2021)

cricketo said:


> That's rough.


Haha RIGHT!!! Just imagine if Matt didn't think that English was my second language 😂🤣😂


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## MattsAwesomeStuff (Aug 10, 2017)

Kiwimike said:


> But you're right, and in my defence this was a case where the expression sounded about right


As I said, even for English speakers, it's a fairly common mistake. I presumed you'd heard or read this phrase from a native english speaker and just copied what they said.



> Generally our expressions in English have their Portuguese/Spanish equivalents, often literal translations, but this is a rare case where i have not come across this expression in Portuguese.


It's a weird phrase. It's so specific and so long, I'm not sure how it ever caught on as a phrase.

I know lots of people who learn a second language and get all kinds of phrases wrong, or whatever words they thought were close. I know I struggle with other languages, and it's so nuanced it's helpful to have a native speaker point out why we say the things we do.


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## vrsi367 (Jul 26, 2021)

I've heard the phase a lot a in some YouTube channels that focus on video games and movie reviews, also in some channels that focus on discussions about legalities or even politics.

I think the beauty of the phrase is that, *for all intents and purposes*, it conveys some authority to the one expressing the opinion, something that has an absolute and final quality to it despite not even being thoroughly studied to an extreme, as the phrase suggests.

To get an idea of what I mean you can watch some of the videos on YouTube by Virtual Legality, LegalEagle, or Upper Echelon Gamers.


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

vrsi367 said:


> I've heard the phase a lot a in some YouTube channels that focus on video games and movie reviews, also in some channels that focus on discussions about legalities or even politics.


The actual phrase ("for all intents and purposes"), or the nonsensical version used by people who don't understand the meaning ("for all intensive purposes")?

By the way, "YouTube channels that focus on video games and movie reviews" is almost the definition of a source which should not be imitated.  Yes, pretend lawyers would like this phrase (in the intended version).


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