# worst EV law in the union. So time to draw a new plan!!!



## surgy (May 15, 2009)

Well I figured out today that my state (Oklahoma) has a law making it VERY expensive and or illegal for anyone to build or convert a vehicle into an EV with more than 84 volts. so I was planning on a 144VDC system looks like I'm going to have to step down a bit, which brings up a few questions, below is a list of things I want to do that are part of my plan to get a mid 90s model eclipse EV to move at 50 mph for 30 miles. Some of the items come with a question as to how well they will work, If anyone could give me advise and help me further fine tune my plan it would be awesome, so here goes and thanks in advance.

Car: 1995 Mitsubishi Eclipse (heavy but its my favorite car)
Motor: D&D ES-31B 72-144VDC searies wound
countroller: Kelly - KDH12500A, 120V, 500A series/PM
Batteries: 7 of these (http://www.yesa.com.hk/goods.asp?id=46)
Power Cable: #2 Black welding cable ($1.26 a foot stuff)
Adaptor/Coupling: Going to try this at home for $300
Pot Box: Need suggestions here but im calling it $100 for now

Charger: no clue as to yet, but it needs to be light going to
be onboard charging from 110VAC ($450 ?)

Extras: Little odds and ends like breakers and the main 
contact and heatshrink/tape say $300 here. 

So tell me what you guys think please. And sorry for the worlds longest post, as some of you know my original budget was planned at $4500 and my new realistic estimate is $6143.50. lol it grew a bit, but i think this is a bit more realistic for what i want and what is legal and possible. Thanks again for any input.

PS: what do you guys think about this? is it not the most awesomess gauge ever made? http://www.defender.com/product.jsp?path=-1|328|51495|316469&id=1130625


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## dreamer (Feb 28, 2009)

I checked EVALBUM and found this Fiero in OK running at 108V.

http://www.evalbum.com/126

Granted it is an entry from 2000, but I am surprised they would have changed the law to a limit voltage since then. What is the gist of the law "making it VERY expensive and or illegalmaking it VERY expensive and or illegal" ?


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## dreamer (Feb 28, 2009)

Am I reaching the right page on that battery link ? The page I reached was only a 30AH battery. 7 of those is going to get you less than 2KWH of usable energy. That is going to be enough to drive maybe 6-8 miles, not anywhere near the 30 mile range you mentioned. You need to be looking at 120AH batteries at a minimum to allow for Puekert effect and have enough usable energy for 30 miles range.


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

I heard about this law. I really feel bad for you, but I think you should fight it.

You would be lucky to make it to 60 MPH on flat ground with any 84V system in a steel body car conversion.

Sorry


The law requires anyone that wants to service ANY EV with a system voltage of 80V or higher (no that does not account for peukerts). To take a state run training course for a few grand and take that course once every year as updates come along. I guess they want to create jobs or something and force privateers like us to pay government technicians to service or even build all of the highway capable EV conversions. Either that or kill them of completely.

But its in the name of safety therefore it mist be so, right?


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## surgy (May 15, 2009)

ok, in response to the remark about the batteries, yes this is a fluid plan that I'm perfecting as I learn about the EV conversions. And thanks to your post I have went back and have decided the extra bucks for 100 AH LifePo4 batetries on a 72 volt system should be better suited. And to accomodate the retards in my state I will thus drop my "final" top speed to 50 mph, is this even feasable? Also will someone please give me a link or brief explaination of the peukert effect? Are you reffering to the "leaking" of energy from the batteries? as in if a batetry sets for a set amount of time it naturally leaks a certain amount? Anyways thanks for all of the help and info, its a plan in progress after all. And I plan on writting a letter to someone and maybe it will help, or maybe more people from my state can stand by me and we can make a difference? Thanks again.


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## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

here is one in Cali, the guy is on his way to court perhaps jail for building an EV without a liscence.

http://www.smdp.com/Articles-c-2009...ric_car_enthusiast_faces_several_charges.html


Brian


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## DavidDymaxion (Dec 1, 2008)

You could run two, or three, or four 72 V motors, controllers, and battery strings.

Four 72 V 500 Amp controllers would make for about a 120 kW car. Not a race car, but plenty for a daily driver.


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## BHall (Aug 1, 2007)

I am in Oklahoma too and know all about that law. It may have been stated but you have to take a coarse to be licensed and take a yearly exam to be able to use more than the 80+ volts. However, Oklahoma currently does not have state vehicle inspections.... A possible solution around this bull$hit law is to build a system that is comprised of two 72 volt battery arrays. Use a reversing contactor to switch the system from parallel to series. A flip of the switch and tada your legal at 72 volts!

Where in Ok are you located?

Brian


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## surgy (May 15, 2009)

I'm in midwest city. and yeah lol i guess i could cheat pretty easy, but a possible year in jail doesnt sound like much fun. But yea im up to any suggestions, and i still have a tone of learning/saving to do before i can actually get started, i think im fixing to learn as much as i can about batteries and everything about controllers. Another quick question though; What other types of energy reclamation are there other than regen breaks? Could i use solar panels to recharge my car while im at work? I mean its pretty sunny about 10 months a year here and i work eight hours a day. How about using the heat from the batteries motors for something? I know I wont ever get 90% energy recycling, but even 5% would make a difference right? and then with a little solar charge at work might give me a few extra miles over the course of a day.

Oh and if your interested in contacting me to discuss ev stuff im at [email protected] and I would really, love to see an ev conversion in real life. Thanks again for everything.


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## Alchemist (Apr 16, 2009)

It seems most automotive lawmakers have no clue! I concur with you about it being such a absurd law. Best of luck to you!


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

I'd use the series parallel suggestion, or dual motors, though that gets expensive. Or since they don't even have inspections just build it any voltage you want,


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## wasabipixels (Apr 17, 2009)

Alchemist said:


> It seems most automotive lawmakers have no clue! I concur with you about it being such a absurd law. Best of luck to you!



No they do . . .

Think about this, Obama suggest a law mandating EV's be made (history repeating itself) and the greedy guys at the automakers decide they cant compete because they have data showing more people are making EV's than ever. (note didn't mention it might only be like 10 or so across a nation lol)

So another law goes into place making it illigal for anyone to make a EV with more than X amount of volts. 

The kicker is your conversion could have cost 9-30k and the new mandatory EV's start at 56k.



I say go with more than one motor or do the parallel series switch.


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## dtbaker (Jan 5, 2008)

JRP3 said:


> ...since they don't even have inspections just build it any voltage you want,


I feel SO sorry for you! 

In New Mexico I just went yesterday to get the registration changed from 'G' to 'E' fuel type so I could try and file for a 10% of conversion cost alternative fuel tax credit.... They didn't even want to look at the car?! Kinda anti-climactic actually.

I am thinking that I actually need to get involved and see if I can get a Legislator to carry a Bill that would give some one-time tax credit for conversions, and tie it to a reasonable safety inspection at the time the vehicle is re-titled as all-electric...


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## surgy (May 15, 2009)

Yeah, I am all about safety, and I'm all for paying my taxes. But limiting my voltage for safety reasons is retarded. I wished they would just let us build any car we want and then before it is legal to drive we have to pay a special "one time inspection" fee to have a professional look it over and give the thumbs up. That way it is proven to be a safe car, and the state gets it's cut. I would actually enjoy paying a tax like that especially if there was a bill saying a percentage of that tax had to go into charging stations!


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## dtbaker (Jan 5, 2008)

surgy said:


> ...limiting my voltage for safety reasons is retarded.


it sure is! unless they limited amps too?! that would require some understanding though...

I would encourage a grass-roots effort to get a bunch of people to call in to your State Rep and Senate to get that law repealed! You would be amazed what a little letter to the editor, story in the paper, and calls to politician's offices can do...


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## Thaniel (May 25, 2008)

I like the switching pack voltage idea. That way if questioned it'd be legal. Switch is only for use outside of OK  You could also licence the car in another state that does not have restrictions.


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## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

surgy said:


> Yeah, I am all about safety, and I'm all for paying my taxes. But limiting my voltage for safety reasons is retarded. I wished they would just let us build any car we want and then before it is legal to drive we have to pay a special "one time inspection" fee to have a professional look it over and give the thumbs up. That way it is proven to be a safe car, and the state gets it's cut. I would actually enjoy paying a tax like that especially if there was a bill saying a percentage of that tax had to go into charging stations!



but then the liability of course switches to the person who signs off on the inspection. the car catches fire in a crowded area and people get hurt ,,then come the lawyers. It would almost have to be a "soft" ( can't find the word) inspection so the inspection facility cannot be help responsible. Although there really is not to much to look at. We have to have cars inspected that are from out of state and its pretty much a 10 dollar joke and waste of time, all they do is look at mileage and match the vin. If they use a dealership for the inspection station no one will ever get an e-car on the road + some of the stuff we do is or can be proprietary and we shouldn't have to share it with the dealerships. On the other hand they will probably learn something.

Also what if the car was previously registered in another state that did not have that law? Would that be of any help I wonder? If it would ,,,,Kansas here is pretty easy to register your ev, heck man you can use my address as well.

Brian


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## surgy (May 15, 2009)

Apreciate it Brian lol, thanks for trying to help, but the law doesnt forbid me to own an ev above 80 V it just forbids me to do any sort of work or maintenance on an EV rated at higher than 80 V. Therefor even if it where registered and built out of state, I can't legally open the hood here in oklahoma. But to be honest I seariously doubt anyone in my city is aware of that law therefor i could skate pretty easy and do what I please, but I live in one of the cleanest states (to my knowledge) and finding out about this law just infuriated me! I thought the idea was to encurage people to do the right thing, not threaten there bank accounts and freedom for trying to live an eco friendly life.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

I wonder if the law is only for anyone working on EV's as a pay service. Since you can work on your home wiring, which can be 240 volts, but you can't charge people to work on theirs unless you are certified, I could see the same being true for an EV. In other words this may not be a real problem for you as long as you don't charge yourself for the labor


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## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

JRP3 said:


> I wonder if the law is only for anyone working on EV's as a pay service. Since you can work on your home wiring, which can be 240 volts, but you can't charge people to work on theirs unless you are certified, I could see the same being true for an EV. In other words this may not be a real problem for you as long as you don't charge yourself for the labor


very good point keep digging


Brian


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## willsr (May 20, 2009)

WHO Dave Bernikoff-Raboy, California rancher/Ford Ranger EV driver Heather Bernifkoff-Raboy, healthcare professional/Ford Ranger EV driver Bill Korthoff, solar energy expert/Ford Ranger EV driver Peter Keat, director, Sacramento Municipal Utility District Todd Kerschaw, Peace Action Sacrament-Yolo Jason Mark, clean car campaigner, Global Exchange Jennifer Krill, zero emissions director, Rainforest Action Network WHAT EV ‘car sit’ vigil underway now On-site press conference from the bed of two Ford Ranger EVs WHEN Saturday, January 15, 2004 10:00 a.m.: press conference WHERE Downtown Ford, 525 North 16th Street & Bafler Street, Sacramento
__________________________________________________________________________________________
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## dtbaker (Jan 5, 2008)

willsr said:


> ....On-site press conference from the bed of two Ford Ranger EVs WHEN Saturday, January 15, 2004 10:00 a.m.: press conference WHERE Downtown Ford, 525 North 16th Street & Bafler Street, Sacramento
> __________________


so.... what happened? what were they lobbying for?


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## Voltswagen (Nov 13, 2008)

My EV is a 77 Beetle Convertible. I registered it for QQ Plates here in New Jersey. This is an historic designation for vehicles more than 25 years old which exempts the vehicle from State Inspection. 
My logic is: If a 1957 Chevy can have QQ Plates but be powered by a 2008 - 350ci Engine.......why not a 2008 electric motor?
The only downside is this......the car cannot be used as a daily driver. My state limits mileage for QQ Plates to 2500 per year. My collector car insurance offers unlimited mileage but prohibits using the vehicle as a daily driver to go back and forth to work. (it's a rock and a hard place).
I have investigated changing to conventional registration but was told that the vehicle would have to pass a Re-Constructed Vehicle State Inspection. I was also told the emphasis of that inspection would be the possibility of EMS personel getting electrocuted trying to cut occupants out of the car following an accident. Gheeze Louise! It's a convertible! (What if they cut a fuel line on an ICE?)
I have imagined visions of encasing my High Voltage Cables in black steel pipe. That oughta dull their blades huh? How about "Do Not Resusitate" stickers?
Don't get me wrong...I'm all for safe construction but there has to be reasonable limits and knowledgable inspectors. And after 40 years of restoring vehicles, I doubt my state has many inspectors with my level of knowledge.
Roy


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## dtbaker (Jan 5, 2008)

Voltswagen said:


> I have investigated changing to conventional registration but was told that the vehicle would have to pass a Re-Constructed Vehicle State Inspection. I was also told the emphasis of that inspection would be the possibility of EMS personel getting electrocuted trying to cut occupants out of the car following an accident.


hopefully you can show that the high voltage front-back cables are under the middle of the car, and unlikely to be cut by the 'jaws of life'. AND have a circuit breaker and fuse inline which would blow in case of accidental shorting. That should do it?!

It does seem like we are overdue for a general re-write and guidelines for electric vehicle conversion inspections in just about every state.


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## wasabipixels (Apr 17, 2009)

dtbaker said:


> hopefully you can show that the high voltage front-back cables are under the middle of the car, and unlikely to be cut by the 'jaws of life'. AND have a circuit breaker and fuse inline which would blow in case of accidental shorting. That should do it?!
> 
> It does seem like we are overdue for a general re-write and guidelines for electric vehicle conversion inspections in just about every state.


Couldn't you use an inertial switch to kill the power coming out of the batteries?

Haven't looked into inertial switches yet. How much force is needed to trip them?


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## dtbaker (Jan 5, 2008)

wasabipixels said:


> Couldn't you use an inertial switch to kill the power coming out of the batteries?
> 
> Haven't looked into inertial switches yet. How much force is needed to trip them?


yes... forgot to mention those. I did install one in my system. I dunno what the force is, but assume it to be 'appropriate' since I think the units are designed to kill power to fuel pumps in Ford autos. I got mine from KTA with all the other stuff.....

The best general guideline would probably include things like:
- High Voltage pack must include:
- a main contactor with inertia switch inline
- circuit breaker with manual disconnect reachable by driver
- fusable link in-line
- no clamps, terminals, or lugs exposed with potential for short circuit
in passenger cabin or cargo space


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## surgy (May 15, 2009)

Yeah I beleave in a safe vehicle too, but it doesnt seam like safety is the issue here in my state, rather the greed of my state to pinch every last penny out of those struggling to make there lifes cheaper. You can look into our toll road policy for an example of this, our toll roads were suppose to become free some 15 years ago after paying themselve off, so what do they do? Raise the rates........ So now we can buy the federal innerstate highways too....... I think that they just want my money and thats the end of it. We all know that a DC car can very easily be 100% safer than an ICE car.


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## tj4fa (May 25, 2008)

Anyone have a link to this "law" mentioned by the Original Poster?

All I came up with from the Oklahoma Department of MOTOR vehicles is one concerning Neighborhood Electric Vehicles.


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## surgy (May 15, 2009)

I'm the "original poster" So I suppose it's my responsibility to to give said "link". 

this crap makes me pretty angry.


so here you go, a breadown of the whole thing:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=115x91782


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## Harold in CR (Sep 8, 2008)

Has anyone even APPLIED for the materials for study, to TAKE the test ??? Do they HAVE an outline of what to study ??? WHO will be the one to give the testing and the Certification ??? Might create yourself a State job, being "THEE MAN" for EV's.

Looks to me like a bullshit play to discourage, UP FRONT, anyone to pursue the testing.

Anyone know if a "Certified" gasoline or Diesel mechanic has to re-register and pay for Certification EVERY YEAR ??? I thought they just needed updated schooling for all the "NEW" crap the Engineers design. ???

Auto mechanics today, are more "Parts changers" than mechanics. Plug in the reader and the "Computer" is the technician. Then, the mechanic changes what the computer says is bad. The "Computer" in an EV goes dead, it gets changed out ???

Don't want or need to get the "Mechanics" here, all riled up at me. I used to be one, before the "Electronic" stuff went big time in cars and pickups. 

If this were my vehicle , and I lived in Oklahoma, I would pursue THEIR certification, and then see if my Attorney could punch holes all through that lame "law" ???

Notice how the STATE says what you NEED to do, but, non-compliance is a "MISDEMEANOR", and IF found guilty of non-compliance, time in the "COUNTY" jail ???

This reeks of needing an ass burning of some politicos ???

Why do y'all think I moved down here ???


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## tj4fa (May 25, 2008)

From the draft Word Document on page 214 from the website below, it does seem to apply to anyone:

http://webserver1.lsb.state.ok.us/OK_Statutes/CompleteTitles/os74.rtf

:§74-130.13. Definitions.
As used in the Alternative Fuels Technician Certification Act:

6. "Electric vehicle technician" means any person who installs, modifies, repairs, performs maintenance on, or renovates onboard charging systems, motors, controllers, power sources, or the drive systems of vehicles powered by electricity that is greater than eighty (80) volts. This includes vehicles originally equipped as electric vehicles, vehicles converted from gliders, and vehicles converted from internal combustion engine vehicles;

7. "Fill station" means the property which is directly related to the delivery of compressed natural gas or liquefied natural gas into the fuel tank of a motor vehicle propelled by such fuel including the compression equipment and storage vessels for such fuel at the point where the fuel is delivered; and

8. "Glider" means a vehicle built without an engine or fuel system for the purpose of converting it to an electric vehicle.

[1] Added by Laws 1990, c. 294, § 3, operative July 1, 1990. Amended by Laws 1991, c. 235, § 8, eff. July 1, 1991. Renumbered from § 420.53 of Title 52 by Laws 1991, c. 235, § 24, eff. July 1, 1991. Amended by Laws 1993, c. 224, § 4, eff. Sept. 1, 1993; Laws 1994, c. 379, § 6, eff. Sept. 1, 1994; Laws 1998, c. 160, § 5, eff. Nov. 1, 1998; Laws 1998, c. 343, § 1, emerg. eff. June 5, 1998; Laws 2001, c. 83, § 2, eff. Nov. 1, 2001.

NOTE: Laws 1998, c. 320, § 2 repealed by Laws 1999, c. 1, § 45, emerg. eff. Feb. 24, 1999.
BDERIV


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## engineer_Bill (Jun 24, 2008)

Look at the guy in California as an example. He is currently being charged as an "unlicensed manufacturer of motor vehicles" after several "undercover" DMV agents asked him to help them convert a thunderbird to electric. Chances are he will be able to beat the charges after several court hearings, and $10's of thousands of dollars to his attorney. It is unfortunate that the huge corperations can use hundreds of corrupt politicians to harrass and intimidate individuals into giving up. Individuals who build there own electric cars where tolerated before for two reasons, 1. There were few of us.
2. THEY had no electric car for sale so no interest.

Both of these reasons have changed. Now there are many of us. And now that they are taking legal action against the "competition", I can finally believe that there will be at least one electric car for sale by a major car dealer. 
Before electric cars were an oddity, now they are becoming a grassroots revolution. Typical of "Dinosaurs" they respond after the fact. Expect a sea of regulations and laws designed to force us to scrap our cars and buy new $50,000.00 electrics with all of the mandated bells and whistles, I.E. air bags and antilock brakes, and HD radio. There will be licenses for charging and building and repairing, and it will only get worse. Until now the limited range of electrics meant we "had" to buy at least one gas burner to drive long trips. The electric was a second car that we probably would not have purchased anyway. Now with more charging stations, and longer range, an electric may be the only car you have. If I need to visit "Grandma", I can fly. Back to your question, I can't advise you on the "LAW", only a licensed attorney can do that. But expect the law to change, if you build a lower voltage car the voltage will change, or some other law will interfere with something else I.E. current, or battery type. Unless you do this several times it is unlikely, (but not impossible), that you will be targeted. The man in California had converted several cars and was actively promoting them before he was targeted. The myrid and broad subjective laws currently on the books virtually insures all of us can be interpreted to be in violation of at least one of them. The only thing keeping us out of jail is the goodwill and intent of your local elected officials. It doesn't matter that the one hundred year old law is seldom enforced, if you upset a c0p he can and will arrest you for it. The possible fine or jail term is nothing, the cost of a lawyer is what will kill you.


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## tj4fa (May 25, 2008)

I have to agree with what EngineerBill (EB)has said.

Once Manufacturered EVs come more into production, (us) little guys will be forced off the road to line the pockets of the money-grubbers.

Like (EB) said will be forced to buy those exotic $50K proprietary parts system vehicles that will be so complex that ordinary people will not be able to maintain or repair them when they fail or require "servicing".

Future manaufacturerd EVs will likely have things lto replace stuff like the "check engine light". The manufactured EVcomputer systems will likely be set up to trigger a "service system light" which after a certain period of time, throws your car into a limp mode (or shut systems down) until you take the vehicle back to the dealer to have it put on thier special analyzer and have the "problems" corrected.

Like your home PC , they will likely install a new "software update" so that the light can come on again at a new specified interval or force a component failure in the future. Along with this, you will likely get the new age version to "your muffler-bearing needs replacing" with "your 3 phase rectification transducer has a bad Moffset that needs replacing" = cha-ching. 

Since now there will be millions of EVs on the roads, the electric utilities companies will be the new "Big Oil" and rates will go out of sight as well as taxes so that any savings we at the moment might realize would go out the window.

Low volt systems like ours will be replaced with 300+ volt systems where it would not be economical for people using solar or other means to recharge. For those people that do harvest electricity to recharge their systems, they will be the new age "moon-shiners" and be thrown in jail because they are evading the utilities taxes or somehow have to pay a usage tax by miles driven as some state legistatures have already proposed.

But not to be a complete doom or gloom guy, at least you will be able breathe better and when you die, you won't be taxed anymore on your carbon emmisions.


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## wasabipixels (Apr 17, 2009)

Edit: dyslexia in the morning makes for miss-understandings when reading fast 



tj4fa said:


> But not to be a complete doom or gloom guy, at least you will be able breathe better and when you die, you won't be taxed anymore on your carbon emmisions.


If a lot of people are not going to be "taxed anymore" because they got EV's your in for a rude awakening. 

Many states charge you extra fees to pay for the roads since your not paying into the fund through their gas taxes. 

/rant start/
As far as carbon taxes go they are ridiculous considering the last 10 years the earth has consistently cooled while CO2 emissions have increased. 
Cant wait for the next presidential election and I am an environmentalist. 

I eat vegan, recycle the few products I buy that have packaging, since I eat a lot of raw foods without packaging. I have helped clean up state parks and plan on "greening" my next home.
That all said I am also a scientist and know the facts when I see them.

/end rant/


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## surgy (May 15, 2009)

I like tfj4's comparison of the future EV and a pc, but lets remember that he was talking about a Microsoft based pc, and lets not forget about the "open source" community where we have devoted ourselves to fighting such oppression. Our EVs just need to follow the route of open source software, we need to all work as a team to build the open source drivetrain" otherwise, we are doomed to be controlled by a monopoly of car companies telling us everything we can and can't do.

Microsoft and GMC have a lot in common when compared in this way (I may be incorrect, im still a noob, but didnt GMC invent the nickle metal hydride pack?). Creating something, hiding it from the masses and then developing a market around it, so that in the future only those who truley want an "acceptable" operating system, or long range EV, will have to buy from there market and guess who owns the only product?

thats my two cents, I hate capitalism. But I love freedom, and I live in the united states, so I get tons of both. Unless they try to mix the two, then money always destroys my freedom. 

I had no idea so many of you guys were as passionate about this as me, and now this is one of the biggest threads on the boards, thanks for the support guys.


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## Harold in CR (Sep 8, 2008)

As much as I hate to say this, on the eve of MEMORIAL DAY, sounds like some of y'all are willing to lie down and let the damn Politicos ride rampant over what's left of your rights ???

Before the Present "Pres" is voted out, or "other", y'all will be wishing you had started a grass roots movement, by contacting and demanding every person that HAS converted or has BOUGHT a conversion, or is THINKING about a conversion, to chip in and start a Class Action lawsuit. 

Is there not ANY Attorneys that would spearhead such a thing ??? Where the hell do you think your rights are going to be within 10 years ??????????????

Just think, if EVERYONE that has interests in ALTERNATIVE ENERGY chipped in 10 lousy dollars, how big a fund that would create ???????????

HELL, I don't live in the USA any longer, BUT, I would throw the first 10 bux in the pot ???????????

Get some backbone, people. HELL, get the Soccer Mom's involved. 

I just can't believe what I am reading in this thread ?????????????????


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## tj4fa (May 25, 2008)

surgy said:


> Microsoft and GMC have a lot in common when compared in this way (I may be incorrect, im still a noob, but didnt GMC invent the nickle metal hydride pack?).


If you squeezed all the heads of corporate GM, you wouln't get a drop of original thought from the lot of them. GM did things the standard old Corporate American way. They bought the patent from Ovionics Corp who developed and patented the NiMh battery. 

GM later sold the patent to Standard Oil (now Chevron) who has buried it until it expires around 2014(except for some limited quantities to Toyota - who earlier partnered with GM during the EV1 period making Geos and Prisms).

GM could have dominated the world with electric cars back then but short term greed was too hard to pass up. 



Harold in CR said:


> Before the Present "Pres" is voted out, or "other", y'all will be wishing you had started a grass roots movement, by contacting and demanding every person that HAS converted or has BOUGHT a conversion, or is THINKING about a conversion, to chip in and start a Class Action lawsuit.
> 
> Is there not ANY Attorneys that would spearhead such a thing ???


Hmmm...a friend of mine who built an EV sold it to a lawyer out of one of the Carolinas for his son...

If a small town lawyer would take this on in ernest (not just doing the "settlement" thing), it would be a David and Goliath type of battle.

Sadly we still have the greatest legal system in the world money can buy.


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## engineer_Bill (Jun 24, 2008)

We live in a "free" country; we are free to do whatever the government permits. even if we do somehow get a majority of votors on the side of allowing unlimited free EV construction, one judge can overturn years of legislation, and even votors initiatives.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Sheesh people, get a grip. First of all we don't actually know what this law is talking about, people converting for profit or a private citizen working on his own vehicle. It's not clearly spelled out and could be argued either way. Some of you talk about this as a huge conspiracy, but why have auto manufacturers not stopped us from building our own vehicles or modifying existing ones? No one seems to be concerned that all of us backyard mechanics will put the auto industry out of business by doing our own car maintenance and modifications to ICE's, do you really think they are worried about a few thousand EV conversions? I don't, not even a little. They truly do have bigger problems.


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## tj4fa (May 25, 2008)

JRP3 said:


> Sheesh people, get a grip. First of all we don't actually know what this law is talking about, people converting for profit or a private citizen working on his own vehicle. It's not clearly spelled out and could be argued either way. Some of you talk about this as a huge conspiracy, but why have auto manufacturers not stopped us from building our own vehicles or modifying existing ones? No one seems to be concerned that all of us backyard mechanics will put the auto industry out of business by doing our own car maintenance and modifications to ICE's, do you really think they are worried about a few thousand EV conversions? I don't, not even a little. They truly do have bigger problems.


 


> 6. "Electric vehicle technician" means *any* person who installs, modifies, repairs, performs maintenance on, or renovates onboard charging systems, motors, controllers, power sources, or the drive systems of vehicles powered by electricity that is greater than eighty (80) volts. This includes vehicles originally equipped as electric vehicles, vehicles converted from gliders, and vehicles converted from internal combustion engine vehicles;


Any means any. 

So those in Oklahoma appear to be restricted by their Department of Motor Vehicle laws.

Apparently, the minority seem to be a threat in that state. 

Of course if there's profit to be made by reaping the fruits of someone elses labor, government always is first in line to want a peice of the action and once they are into your pocket, they will never get back out of it.


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

Technically, it is illegal in most places to service your own air conditioning system as well. Doesn't matter of you are doing it for yourself or anyone else so this law is not that big a stretch. I service my own AC anyway, but the principle here is what matters and I am very worried by the writing I see on the wall.

I have no doubt that what Brian was doing for others in Kansas city would become illegal if these lawmakers get their way.

You have to remember, that if it can be justified in the name of safety, ANYTHING goes when it comes to making laws that restrict freedom. I don't understand what is so hard to believe about that, its been happening for decades.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

My point is why has this not happened with ICE's? There may be some isolated restrictions, but for the most part you can do anything you want to your ICE as long as it passes inspection, and some places don't even have inspections.
Besides, we aren't going to let this happen, right? I know I won't sit idly by if there is any serious attempt to restrict us.


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## Harold in CR (Sep 8, 2008)

Yeah, I'm getting carried away, but, DAMMIT, WHERE is the safety issue, compared to an old junker gasoline car.???
I don't see all that many "junkers" being converted ??? Guys are beefing up suspension and brakes. Trying to maintain use of power assist for brakes and steering ??? Mosy all I read about, are very concerned about battery support, and go to great detail to make things rugged.

LiFePo4 has fairly well solved the explosive battery-fire issue ??? No liquid much to spill on occupants or rescuers ??? Safety switches and manual disconnects are being used by LOTS of converters ???

Remember when FORD used those swivel connections on fuel lines, and, many cars and pickups caught fire on the hwy ???

What about the good old Pinto, where rear end collisions caused fire eruptions ???

Public pressure about safety brought changes there ???

I say, create a standard to build to, BUT, who is the one to create that standard ??? How about all the EV organizations in the states ??? Inspection could be a must. No problem there, right ??? Pay a fee for miles driven ??? THAT would be in tune with gasoline taxes, but, should be cheaper, to create MORE people to convert. 

I just don't see ANY reason to take being shoved around, because of "Special Interest " money ???

Isn't taking money from Special Interest Groups the same as buying votes ??? I thought it was illegal to sell your vote ??? Isn't THAT what special interest is doing ???

Looks to me like there are plenty of ways to attack this issue ??? Start with the Obaminator. He SUPPORTS Alternative Vehicles, RIGHT ??? Let HIM help put pressure on states with questionable legislature ???


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## Watt-a-mezz (May 20, 2009)

Hi all, I am in Ohio, and it seems the three wheel electrics had some registration problems, Not a car, not a motorcycle. So far from what I can see there are no problems with four wheel conversions or the Zenn car.I do hope our present administration will do something about these bum laws and restrictions. Write to your state rep and let him know what you think. I know I will be. The best of luck to you. Take Care, Watt


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## Tom Thomson (Jun 11, 2008)

Surgy
The Peukert effect says that the faster you discharge a battery, the fewer amp hours you can get. To crudely use the water analogy, say you have a 1 gallon bucket. If you pour it slowly, you can fill 4 quart jars but if you pour rapidly, you can only fill 3 jars. If you pour really slow you can fill 5 jars. The AH rating of a battery is given at a specific dicharge rate, in my case 75A. Going down the road, I usually pull 100 - 150A and for a time, I could not understand why I was having trouble getting home. Turns out that the 213 AH which I thought I had was much less. Google "Peukert" for a formula to find out how much less. I have a 924 Porsche running 84V (14 golf cart batts) which will hit 60 mph but the motor gets hot (400F) quickly. The car weighs 3167# 
tommyt


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## dtbaker (Jan 5, 2008)

surgy said:


> http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=115x91782




I don't see anything in here that says you can't convert your own, and then sell the vehicle.... only that you cannot advertise or do the work as a service for others.

so.... you could buy a vehicle, convert it, and sell it as far as I can tell.

But... it DOES brig up the ugly liability issue. How do we as a group feel we can sell converted vehicles without risking lawsuits if ANYTHING goes wrong with or without implied warranty? Its one thing if something breaks down, but what if a motor mount or battery box that was self-welded by non-certified mech breaks? What is somebody get hurt? 

Is it possible and reasonable to write a disclaimer at time of sale that would truely protect ones from lawsuit?


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## gtyler (May 4, 2008)

You can make a 144V car that complies, make it + 72V -oV= -72V (centre tapped). highest voltage to chassis is 72V but motor sees 144V.


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## Thaniel (May 25, 2008)

dtbaker said:


> But... it DOES brig up the ugly liability issue. How do we as a group feel we can sell converted vehicles without risking lawsuits if ANYTHING goes wrong with or without implied warranty? Its one thing if something breaks down, but what if a motor mount or battery box that was self-welded by non-certified mech breaks? What is somebody get hurt?
> 
> Is it possible and reasonable to write a disclaimer at time of sale that would truely protect ones from lawsuit?


I think liablilty is a valid concern. If someone dies or is severly injoured due to a modified part or a modification to the car the lawyers will start to swarm. 

I did a conversion to an ICE car and had done extensive welding on the vehicle. When I was done with it I almost dismantled it due to liablility concerns. I did end up selling but I had the buyer sign a note saying he understood it was a highly modified car and all responsibility for deciding it was safe to drive was his own. Not sure it would keep lawyers away but I have to think it would help.

Thaniel


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## Voltswagen (Nov 13, 2008)

I am not ASE Certified but have been restoring and selling vehicles for over 40 years.
When it comes to liability, the state you live in may have specific statutes. In my state private individuals sell used vehicles "As Is". This is taken to mean buyer beware and the buyer has the right to have the vehicle inspected by his mechanic. But, in all those years only one buyer showed up with his mechanic to inspect the vehicle and one other asked me to drive the car to a local shop for inspection which I did.
As I got older, because of a litigious society, I started to have each buyer sign a disclosure stating that he understands that I am not ASE Certified and cannot guarantee the performance of any repairs or restorations and he should have the vehicle inspected before purchase.
That being said.....and myself in possession of many signed disclosures.....anyone can still sue anyone for anything. Doesn't mean they will win though. 
Should I ever sell my EV I believe I would have the buyer sign a disclosure stating that he realizes that he is purchasing an "Experimental" vehicle and should have it inspected by a qualified facility before purchase.
Roy


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