# Mazda E-Protege5 conversion



## PatricioIN (Jun 13, 2008)

well that all sounds very exciting... I can't wait to see your numerous detailed entries in this build thread (subtle eh?)! I have actually greatly considered the Protege in many different generations as a very good candidate for an EV conversion. Good luck and keep the info coming!


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## TheSGC (Nov 15, 2007)

Nice! That is one nice looking donor car.

Do you have any info on the gear ratios of the transmission? I just got a ADC FB1-4001A for my Civic, and I have gone through the calculations and found that the 9" will handle all 4 gears, where my little 6.7" could only take 1st and 2nd gear.

Also, do you have a model number for the car and the transmission computer? Some of the newer (2000+) vehicles can have the transmission computer reprogrammed to what you want, and that would be sweet. My 1996 Civic isn't programmable, but the gear ratios work out nicely, and my new beast motor will help out a lot. 

I too had to do an Auto-EV since no one in my family will drive a stick (benefit for me since no one takes my car!) And so far so good, have over 60 EV miles on it and no problems, except the tiny motor.


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## DC Braveheart (Oct 12, 2008)

That's cool - I'm buying a Protege5 from a colleague at work who is returning to the UK - I really liked it when I drove. That adds to my collection of Mazda's ... I already have a 1992 Miata and a 2007 CX-7 (yeah - I know ... a true gas guzzler). Now I REALLY need to start working on converting ONE of them!


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## dimitri (May 16, 2008)

> Do you have any info on the gear ratios of the transmission?


1GR - 2.816
2GR - 1.497
3GR - 1.000
4GR - 0.725

I don't have the model of the ECU yet, I will look for it. Do you have any info or links regarding reprogramming of the ECUs? The only thing I need is to move shift points to higher RPMs, I have an idea on how to do that later, but it would be much easier to just change it in the stock ECU.

Thanks


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## TheSGC (Nov 15, 2007)

Also, what's the Final Drive gear ratio?

I don't have links for Mazda ECU's, so a google search would be in order. Search for performance ECUs, programming ECUs and chip upgrades. Also the dealer may have equipment for reprogramming the ECU.



dimitri said:


> 1GR - 2.816
> 2GR - 1.497
> 3GR - 1.000
> 4GR - 0.725
> ...


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## RKM (Jun 9, 2008)

Dimitri,

You'll have your first and second build done in less time than many of us (me at least) will take to do our first! Great choice for a very practical and fun conversion. I won't bug you about the auto tranny... you gotta do what you gotta do. I'm sure it was hard to sell the roadster, my condolences.

Can you share more about your LFP pack? Cell size, quantity? Why did you choose that supplier...? Has there been any break on pricing?

I'll be wanting to have two LFP packs (45X160Ah) for spring. Hoping the price will soften. 

Rob


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## dimitri (May 16, 2008)

RKM said:


> Can you share more about your LFP pack? Cell size, quantity? Why did you choose that supplier...? Has there been any break on pricing?


I decided to use 40 cells of TS LFP160AH for a nominal pack voltage of 128V. Initially I wanted 45 cells, but for many reasons decided to lower to 40. One of the reasons is that I want to use PakTrakr as my Battery Monitoring System and it only goes to 40 cells, also I can fit 40 cells entirely in the back of this car and will just need to upgrade rear springs to hold 500Lb of lithium. And of course 40 cells cost less than 45 cells  while providing enough power for my projected range of 50-70 miles.

I bought from Elite Power because their price is competitive with direct orders from China, yet I have a peace of mind in dealing with US company and not worrying about customs, etc. I'd rather not post prices here, you can call or Email them for a quote. There has not been any major price break yet, but if these cells last as they claim, they should be cheaper than LA even at today's price.

Battery cost is the largest chunk of my budget, so I am saving every penny on other parts, buying from Ebay and cherry picking EV suppliers, instead of buying a whole kit like I did with my first EV.


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## bblocher (Jul 30, 2008)

Hey Dimitri,

Glad to see you're tracking this build somewhere. I'll keep an eye on it. Looks like a great donor car. Have fun man!


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## dimitri (May 16, 2008)

This is the sport auto shifter I mentioned...








While still collecting parts and planning the conversion, I decided to take care of some things that are not EV related, like changing brake rotors and pads. Old rotors were pretty worn out, so I found a good deal on Ebay for a complete kit, 4 rotors and 4 sets of ceramic pads for $199 shipped. Previous owner had painted calipers, but the paint was all chipped, so instead of scraping the old paint, I decided to repaint it, looks cool, eh?








I also put in my favorite in-dash media player and XM Radio.








Oh, and the pedals too....








OK, this car had its last gas dinner  , once the tank is empty the engine will come out. Poor ICE doesn't know its days are numbered


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## RKM (Jun 9, 2008)

dimitri said:


> I decided to use 40 cells of TS LFP160AH for a nominal pack voltage of 128V. Initially I wanted 45 cells, but for many reasons decided to lower to 40. One of the reasons is that I want to use PakTrakr as my Battery Monitoring System and it only goes to 40 cells, also I can fit 40 cells entirely in the back of this car and will just need to upgrade rear springs to hold 500Lb of lithium. And of course 40 cells cost less than 45 cells  while providing enough power for my projected range of 50-70 miles.
> 
> I bought from Elite Power because their price is competitive with direct orders from China, yet I have a peace of mind in dealing with US company and not worrying about customs, etc. I'd rather not post prices here, you can call or Email them for a quote. There has not been any major price break yet, but if these cells last as they claim, they should be cheaper than LA even at today's price.
> 
> Battery cost is the largest chunk of my budget, so I am saving every penny on other parts, buying from Ebay and cherry picking EV suppliers, instead of buying a whole kit like I did with my first EV.


Thanks for the response. Big bonus to be able to have a single bat box! I'm glad to hear, surprised even, that Elite is able to be price competitive with a direct order. It is definitely less risky. I'll contact them re. a quote. I haven't seen the 160Ah cells listed on their site, will check again and inquire. 

I keep telling myself... if they last and perform as advertised, they will be better and less expensive in the long run. Let's hope that is the case!

Rob


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## judebert (Apr 16, 2008)

Nice. I've loved the Protege wagons since I saw my first one. I'm jealous!


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## dimitri (May 16, 2008)

OK, today was officially first day of the project, I jacked the car and started unplugging and removing everything around the engine.









I'm going to need some advise from experienced auto mechanics, since its not really my field, so I am learning as I go. 

I knew that auto tranny has a cooling loop for the ATF fluid, but I didn't expect it to be in same radiator as the engine. I was planning on removing the main radiator, but found that tranny hoses go into it as well. Obviously it must have 2 separate loops, since there are 2 separate fluids, right? So what should I do? Keep the big radiator only for tranny? That would suck....

Also, I am trying to remove the engine without removing transmission, not sure if its a good idea, seems pretty complicated. I wanted to avoid extra work of removing drive shafts, etc. 

It seems that one joint shaft is supported by the engine itself, so after I put Warp9 in I am going to have to fabricate new support for that joint shaft? That's a hassle I haven't planned for 

Front drive seems more complicated than rear drive, Miata was much easier to work with


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## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

dimitri said:


> ...
> I knew that auto tranny has a cooling loop for the ATF fluid, but I didn't expect it to be in same radiator as the engine. I was planning on removing the main radiator, but found that tranny hoses go into it as well. Obviously it must have 2 separate loops, since there are 2 separate fluids, right? So what should I do? Keep the big radiator only for tranny? That would suck......


Nope - just get a separate transmission cooler. They are sold at auto parts stores mainly for people that tow RVs and such.... Here's an example:

http://www.etrailer.com/pc-TRAN~HH41019.htm?utm_source=froogle&utm_medium=ppc


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## TheSGC (Nov 15, 2007)

Ok, since I am the only other NutCase that has done an AutoTranny, lemme give you my knowledge:

For the transmission cooler, yes it usually uses the bottom half of your ICE radiator. But you can remove that and get a Transmission Cooler. The are usually used as add-ons for towing packages and are rather small. Usually go for $30-$40 and can be installed anyway you want. I still have my radiator installed due to laziness, but it will be removed and I will install a transmission cooler when I install my new motor. 

I left my transmission installed when I removed the engine, but the transmission was self supporting and the drive shafts weren't dependant on the engine for mounts. The annoying thing was I had to separate the torque converter from the engine through a small hole under the car, and manually spinning the engine and transmission to get to the next bolt. 

You're going to have to make your own adapter plates and coupling because none exist for an auto, and EV suppliers won't make them, but once you have your transmission it's really easy to make one. Check out my site for my journey into AutoTrannyWorld.


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## dimitri (May 16, 2008)

SGC,

I follow your blog and have your Auto Tranny PDF doc. Your conversion inspired me to do an AutoTranny myself. Thanks for sharing the info.

I just ordered the tranny cooler on Ebay for $40 shipped, nice 

Now I just need to figure out how to take the damn engine out.

Wouldn't you still need to unbolt the TC from the drive plate thru a hole even if you taken engine out with the tranny attached?

Thanks


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## TheSGC (Nov 15, 2007)

dimitri said:


> Wouldn't you still need to unbolt the TC from the drive plate thru a hole even if you taken engine out with the tranny attached?
> 
> Thanks


Yes, but it would have been much easier if the transmission/engine was more than 2 ft off the ground! And to make it worse, the car jacks were sinking into the mud while I was under, so the space was getting smaller and smaller. I thought I was just loosing my mind, but the jacks sunk 3 inches in the few hours I was working on it.

I really should update that PDF too.


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## Jimdear2 (Oct 12, 2008)

dimitri said:


> SGC,
> 
> Now I just need to figure out how to take the damn engine out.


dimitri,

Just a thought, Go by the local Mazda dealer and ask the service manager if you could post an offer to have one of the line techs, come and help you pull the engine after normal work hours or on the weekend.

$50.00 bucks and a case of beer or somesuch might save you a lot of grief and broken parts (car and personal body parts).

Might also be a way to make some good contacts for all of those MAZDA only questions.

Good luck.
Jim


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## PatricioIN (Jun 13, 2008)

dimitri said:


> OK, today was officially first day of the project, I jacked the car and started unplugging and removing everything around the engine.
> 
> View attachment 2166
> 
> ...


Make sure you take careful measurements of where that shaft support is as you'll need to put it back there when you put in your electric motor.. there's a lot of pics and info on that on my site.. or for a short reference, check out Brian's "Saturn Project" thread as he just did one similar.. most of us incorporate that passenger side 1/2 shaft mount into our new motor mount. It seems harder than it is.. just some noodle work.


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## judebert (Apr 16, 2008)

My Honda Civic Wagon had an axle support on the engine, too. We got a giant U-bolt that we wrapped around the motor, and we built an axle support on the other side.


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## dimitri (May 16, 2008)

Hmm, giant U bolt is an interesting approach, where would I find one of those?

Remember how I said that I loved Mazda's engineering? Well, forget it, they must have different engineers working on Miata and Protege, because removing the engine on Protege is a huge pain in the neck, literally  , my neck hurts from getting my head in places it wasn't designed to fit 

I will have to remove entire intake manifold to get access to rear engine mounts, haven't had time to do it yet.

On the upside, all exhaust parts are out, fuel tank and lines disconnected, ready to remove the fuel tank , which is much easier job on Protege, than on Miata, so I guess its a tradeoff


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## bblocher (Jul 30, 2008)

dimitri said:


> Remember how I said that I loved Mazda's engineering? Well, forget it, they must have different engineers working on Miata and Protege, because removing the engine on Protege is a huge pain in the neck, literally  , my neck hurts from getting my head in places it wasn't designed to fit
> 
> I will have to remove entire intake manifold to get access to rear engine mounts, haven't had time to do it yet.
> 
> On the upside, all exhaust parts are out, fuel tank and lines disconnected, ready to remove the fuel tank , which is much easier job on Protege, than on Miata, so I guess its a tradeoff


All worth it in the end though. That'll will be such a nice all purpose EV. Makes me want to do another when mine is done. This reminds me of taking out all my ICE crap though, nothing seemed easy because they had everything crammed in there. Was still fun


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## judebert (Apr 16, 2008)

dimitri said:


> Hmm, giant U bolt is an interesting approach, where would I find one of those?


Oh, you just... look! Dinosaurs! *runs away* 

I wish I could remember, and apparently it's one of the things I didn't bother to put on my website. I'll try to ask my brother, who actually bought and installed it, and I'll get back to you.


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## dimitri (May 16, 2008)

Major progress today, engine is out 







After I removed the starter it opened access hole to the Torque Converter's 4 nuts, the rest was easy.







Here are some pics of engine compartment, TC and drive plate.





















I should be able to bolt the drive plate to the hub which would go onto Warp9 shaft. Probably even easier than dealing with clutch plates 







Will use the gasket as the template for aluminum plate...

Now the real fun begins...


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## TheSGC (Nov 15, 2007)

Looking good! I remember those days of mounting the motor, and drilling plates for the tranny, doing it all myself for the experience. Oh wait, I have to do it all over again for my new motor, but this time I might have the machine shop do the whole thing.


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## bblocher (Jul 30, 2008)

Congrats man!


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## Jimdear2 (Oct 12, 2008)

dimitri,

A couple of questions to satisfy my curiosity on what looks to be a very nice conversion.


Are you planning on retaining the torque converter?
Are you planing to use the converter lock up clutch 100% of the time to prevent loss of power through converter slippage until hydraulic lock up?
Will you "idle" your electric motor to keep up transmission pressure or will you use an external auxillary pump when the traction motor is not turning?
Are you planning on using the transmission as fully automatic or will you be modifying the trans ECM in some way?
Thanks,
Jim


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## dimitri (May 16, 2008)

Jimdear2 said:


> dimitri,
> 
> A couple of questions to satisfy my curiosity on what looks to be a very nice conversion.
> 
> ...


1. Yes, I want to retain original parts and functions as much as possible. I considered removing TC, but it would change the ATF path and volume and requires too much metal work, I am not comfortable with.

2. I will let TCU control the TC clutch as designed. I can't lock it because I will idle the motor, see below.

3. Yes, I will idle the motor. I also plan to run AC and PS from rear shaft, so idling helps me retain those functions. I consider power loss for idle negligible for my purposes. As another tinkering task later, I will install the push button to stop the idle temporarily, on long stops like train crossings, long red lights, etc. to save power without turning off ignition key.

4. At first fully automatic OEM setup. Later on if needed I may change RPM shifting points for better RPM efficiency, by either fooling OEM TCU or installing aftermarket TCU that is programmable.


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## bblocher (Jul 30, 2008)

dimitri said:


> 1. Yes, I want to retain original parts and functions as much as possible. I considered removing TC, but it would change the ATF path and volume and requires too much metal work, I am not comfortable with.
> 
> 2. I will let TCU control the TC clutch as designed. I can't lock it because I will idle the motor, see below.
> 
> ...


Hopefully the extra juice of the lithium cells makes some of this wasted power insignificant for your needs as well.


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## dimitri (May 16, 2008)

bblocher said:


> Hopefully the extra juice of the lithium cells makes some of this wasted power insignificant for your needs as well.


Definitely, I would not do this conversion without Lithium. I've done LEad Acid before and will never even consider it again.


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## Jimdear2 (Oct 12, 2008)

dimitri said:


> 1. Yes, I want to retain original parts and functions as much as possible. I considered removing TC, but it would change the ATF path and volume and requires too much metal work, I am not comfortable with.
> 
> 2. I will let TCU control the TC clutch as designed. I can't lock it because I will idle the motor, see below.
> 
> ...


dimitri,

This is going to be a very interesting build. 

With that big motor + 2.5 to one torque multiplacation in the torque converter at low rpm, a deep low gear and a final drive in the fours. WOW!!!Smoke city, I hope you have access to lots of tires.

Really though, with lots of voltage to spin up the motor and good amps, should be a really fun drive.

Jim


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## DC Braveheart (Oct 12, 2008)

dimitri said:


> 3. Yes, I will idle the motor. I also plan to run AC and PS from rear shaft, so idling helps me retain those functions. I consider power loss for idle negligible for my purposes. As another tinkering task later, I will install the push button to stop the idle temporarily, on long stops like train crossings, long red lights, etc. to save power without turning off ignition key.


Have you thought of using the shift selector position to control whether the motor idles or is powered off? Seems to me that a microswitch that only allows the contactor to close when Reverse or Drive is selected (or Manual on the Protege) would be the way to do it. At a stop light you can then shift into Neutral to cut the motor (I do that in my ICE automatics today - one of which is a Protoge). When the light changes go back into Drive to pressurise the hydraulics (should take 2 secs or so?) and off you go. Of course that would cut your AC ... but if you need to keep it running just don't shift into neutral.


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## dimitri (May 16, 2008)

I don't want to interfere with shift selector and require any waiting time, that is a safety concern, especially when technically challenged primary driver ( wife ) is using the car.

I have better idea. There are 3 buttons on the steering wheel for cruise control, which I have removed already, don't need it. I can use "Cancel" button to "Cancel Idle". By the time I remove the hand from the button and move it to the shifter it will be ready to drive. Obviously in anticipation of green light I will do it a bit sooner...


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## Thaniel (May 25, 2008)

dimitri said:


> 1. Yes, I want to retain original parts and functions as much as possible. I considered removing TC, but it would change the ATF path and volume and requires too much metal work, I am not comfortable with.
> 
> 2. I will let TCU control the TC clutch as designed. I can't lock it because I will idle the motor, see below.
> 
> ...


 Dimitri, Good looking start on this conversion. your Miata looked good. Oh and the Mazda engineering is good. It's just FWD compared to RWD. All FWD are bears to work on.

Shame you are planning on keeping the torque converter. I had high hopes you'd come up with some clever ways to implement the auto trans. When rebuilding my Landrovers auto trans last year I was looking at all the pieces thinking on how an auto could be used in an EV. However, my wife drives a manual so I didn't see going down that path.


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## tj4fa (May 25, 2008)

dimitri said:


> ...I will install the push button to stop the idle temporarily, on long stops like train crossings, long red lights, etc. to save power without turning off ignition key...


Hmmm...just a (not well thought out) thought...

Couldn't you just use tap into your 12V brake light switch to turn the TC off? That would "idiot proof" the system.

What's "not well thought out" is that using the brake light switch while slowing would also turn off idle.

Would this be a bad thing to do with your AT setup?


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## aktill (Jun 18, 2008)

tj4fa said:


> Hmmm...just a (not well thought out) thought...
> 
> Couldn't you just use tap into your 12V brake light switch to turn the TC off? That would "idiot proof" the system.
> 
> ...


Or link it to the handbrake rather than the foot brake?


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## dimitri (May 16, 2008)

Guys, appreciate all the ideas about the Cancel Idle switch. I won't use the brake pedal since its pressed when you shift from park to drive, and that would require delay again. I hardly ever use hand brake, so that's not very convenient, but it could work, so thanks for that option  , I pretty much decided on the cruise control button.

As for progress over the weekend.... picked up 2 half inch aluminum plates at local Metal Supermarket, and while there got all the steel angles for battery boxes and steel plates for rear motor mount and half shaft mount. Got a nice deal on buying all at once and good break on aluminum since they had someone's canceled order laying around that worked well for me 

Spent entire day, several saw blades, drill bits and a lot of swearing to cut shapes out of aluminum. Not the CNC work quality, but I have satisfaction of doing it myself  , not even ashamed to post it here.















Had a setback when I started cutting off extra half inch of TC pilot shaft, I need that room for motor shaft, so I took the saw to it. Turns out the SOB is hollow, and ATF started dripping out 

After I took TC out and looked inside, turns out that I can easily weld the hole up and nothing inside was damaged, whew, close call...

Now I am waiting for taper locks to arrive by UPS...


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## judebert (Apr 16, 2008)

Close one!

Working on that aluminum is such a pain. The reciprocating saw just tears your arm up. I also tried an angle grinder, which ate through the discs at a prodigious pace and made the aluminum produce the Scream of Ultimate Suffering.

I dunno what I'm going to do next time (if any). Maybe take it to a shop.


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## bblocher (Jul 30, 2008)

Two words. Plasma Cutter 
Expensive but I used it so many times during the conversion.


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## dimitri (May 16, 2008)

While waiting for taper locks I worked on attaching OEM throttle position sensor to my new potbox. Sensor's arm happened to turn in same direction and have same operational angle as Curtis PB6, so I just mounted it on top and mechanically connected sensor arm to potbox arm, worked out quite nice.

Throttle position is required for proper auto transmission operations.


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## bblocher (Jul 30, 2008)

That's cool, but why do you still need the TPS?


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## dimitri (May 16, 2008)

TPS tells transmission to downshift and controls normal vs. power modes of shift patterns.

Got the taper lock from McMaster-Carr today, hole pattern fits nicely onto the drive plate, should work pretty good.









This is trial fit, I don't have all bolts yet.


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## TheSGC (Nov 15, 2007)

I have removed my TPS, but maybe I should install it and see how it helps my shifting. Right now it shifts at specific intervals, but I would love for the transmission to stay in 1st for a little longer when I step on it.


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## dimitri (May 16, 2008)

Time to report some progress. After much consideration I decided to give up on cutting TC shaft and instead cut half inch from motor shaft, then I will buy new TC with original pilot shaft, which would be recessed into the first half inch of the taper lock. Taper lock is deep enough to have plenty of grip on the remaining shaft. I just couldn't trust repairing the TC that I cut, I would always be thinking that it would leak or somehow jeopardize the safety of the transmission.

I proceeded with cutting off half inch from motor shaft and installing taper lock, worked out great, real tight. Then I bolted the drive plate to the hub and hooked up 12V battery to test the spin. Whoohoo, spins very smooth, no vibration at all.

Then I lifted the motor and did a trial fit into the engine bay, everything fits nicely. It also proved that my idea of centering the motor to the transmission while in the car is totally insane  there is no way to do it with motor hanging off the hoist, too much movement in all directions.

So , next step is to remove transmission and mount it onto the motor while motor is secured vertically on the floor, then put them back into the car together.


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## bblocher (Jul 30, 2008)

dimitri said:


> Time to report some progress. After much consideration I decided to give up on cutting TC shaft and instead cut half inch from motor shaft, then I will buy new TC with original pilot shaft, which would be recessed into the first half inch of the taper lock. Taper lock is deep enough to have plenty of grip on the remaining shaft. I just couldn't trust repairing the TC that I cut, I would always be thinking that it would leak or somehow jeopardize the safety of the transmission.
> 
> I proceeded with cutting off half inch from motor shaft and installing taper lock, worked out great, real tight. Then I bolted the drive plate to the hub and hooked up 12V battery to test the spin. Whoohoo, spins very smooth, no vibration at all.
> 
> ...


The motor/tranny mating was the scariest for me. Too critical to design it wrong. Glad things are moving along. Keep the pictures coming!


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## dimitri (May 16, 2008)

Major milestone was reached today after I removed the transmission and cleaned up the engine bay. This is the point when everything that needs to be removed and disassembled is completed. From now on, it will be installing and putting it all back together, a.k.a "real fun" 









Unfortunately the weekend will be quiet, since I am waiting for my new torque converter and new motor mounts. I found a nice deal on aftermarket motor mounts for this car, they are stiffer, which would be nice for higer torque motor. Usually the trade off in ICE car is more vibration, but there should be none in EV


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## dimitri (May 16, 2008)

OK, finally some more progress last night. Got my new motor mounts and new torque converter. Supposedly this TC is even better than OEM, it was rebuilt by local shop here in Tampa that specializes on racing TC applications. I guess it should be better at dealing with all that torque coming from Warp9, we'll see...

Here is new TC in the transmission, leveled on the floor, ready for motor.









Here is the drive plate on the motor, ready to mate with TC...









We have the touchdown...









With motor resting on top of the transmission, I bolted the plate facing transmission, bolted 4 nuts on the TC, did a test spin to make sure there is no vibration, it was spinning nice and smooth. Then I drilled 2 holes for dowel pins on opposite sides of the motor, hammered pins in there, then another spin test, all still smooth. At this point 2 plates are mated to each other solid with dowel pins. I took everything back apart and drilled 10 bolt holes around the circle between 2 plates, bolted them together. Voila, adapter plates are done.









Installed everything back together, with locktite, final assembly.

I would be putting it all back into the car now, but I am being held back by missing taper lock for the rear shaft, which is on the back order from McMaster Carr, should be here in a week...
There is not enough room to install taper lock on rear shaft, while in the car, so I will have to wait again...


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## PatricioIN (Jun 13, 2008)

This is a very cool build; it all looks great thus far. It's amazing how similar everything in your engine bay looks to mine. But then, mine is a Mazda Protege at heart. Are your dash vent motors vacuum driven like mine? I just put a tee with the proper size fitting in the vacuum line going to the brake booster to supply vacuum for my vent motors. It's worked perfectly. I don't lose vacuum even when it sits overnight. Here's a closeup.


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## dimitri (May 16, 2008)

Hmm, I never even thought that vent could be vacuum driven. Just checked my service manual, looks like there is electrical blower motor just as I expected. Thanks for heads up though...


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## bblocher (Jul 30, 2008)

PatricioIN said:


> This is a very cool build; it all looks great thus far. It's amazing how similar everything in your engine bay looks to mine. But then, mine is a Mazda Protege at heart. Are your dash vent motors vacuum driven like mine? I just put a tee with the proper size fitting in the vacuum line going to the brake booster to supply vacuum for my vent motors. It's worked perfectly. I don't lose vacuum even when it sits overnight. Here's a closeup.


The motor that moves the air or changes the vent output? Not sure what other vehicles have this (probably most of the newer ones) but my vent selection knob actuates an electric motor to switch where you want the air to go.


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## dimitri (May 16, 2008)

Vent routing selector on this Mazda is all mechanical, I found that when I took the center dash out to install the XM radio. I don't think this car has any vacuum driven controls, other than power brakes.


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## PatricioIN (Jun 13, 2008)

yeah, this is the first time I've come across this setup, but on mine, the motors that direct air flow through various vents are vacuum driven. My miata is all cable driven (but it has maybe three settings!), same with my Rambler. I'm sure the Prius is all electric as is most of the ventilation controls and motors.. but the zx2, vacuum.


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## dimitri (May 16, 2008)

Lots of work done this weekend. Got the taper lock for rear shaft, attached the pulley to it, attached the rear plate, put whole assembly in the car.









Then mounted AC compressor, PS pump, half shaft mount. Then cut off excess metal from the plate, painted and finally installed everything back. Put a new belt on the pulleys, test spin. Spins nice, smooth and quiet.









Put ATF into the tranny and test ran the wheels in Drive position. Wheels spin, whoo hoo 

Check engine light comes up, I wonder why  , I would check the engine, but someone took it off my hands few days ago 

Batteries and charger should be here in few days, then its just wait for Tesseract and Qer to finish their controller. I alredy signed up for the first unit


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## PatricioIN (Jun 13, 2008)

did you secure the passenger 1/2 shaft already? hard to tell in that pic

ooops.. nevermind.. I reread the post : )


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## bblocher (Jul 30, 2008)

Looking good!


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## dimitri (May 16, 2008)

Finally some progress to report. I have been working on control board and vacuum pump setup for past few days. At this point everything is mounted, wired and tested OK. Just finished prettying up wiring looms, etc. Here is the eye candy 









You can see in the pic, I took OEM engine temperature sensor and epoxied it into the lift hole on Warp9. Now I have a working original temp gauge in the instrument cluster, although the range may need to be adjusted to show correct HOT temp. I tested it by heating it with heat gun and the needle moved to the middle of the gauge by the time I couldn't touch it anymore. I can add precision pot in parallel to the sensor and adjust the gauge range to my liking.

My next goal is bring tachometer to life, I just found signal wire and properties from the shop manual, it takes 2 pulses per revolution, should be easy to reproduce using OEM sensor.

Batteries are arriving today, I took time off work to focus on the car. Pretty soon the only missing part will be the controller.


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## bblocher (Jul 30, 2008)

Wow you are flying through it now.


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## dimitri (May 16, 2008)

OK, tachometer is working now. I cut into the wire that feeds from ECM to the instrument cluster computer's tach input, which carries 2 pulses per revolution. I attached OEM crank shaft sensor next to the rear pulley on Warp9, made a metal strip that's bolted onto the shaft, such that 2 edges of the metal strip pass 2 mm from the sensor's head, connected sensor to the ground and the tach wire, voila, everything is working just like original.

Just as I finished up all the wiring, big yellow truck pulled up and unloaded my long awaited batteries 









Tomorrow begins battery mounting phase


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## bblocher (Jul 30, 2008)

dimitri said:


> OK, tachometer is working now. I cut into the wire that feeds from ECM to the instrument cluster computer's tach input, which carries 2 pulses per revolution. I attached OEM crank shaft sensor next to the rear pulley on Warp9, made a metal strip that's bolted onto the shaft, such that 2 edges of the metal strip pass 2 mm from the sensor's head, connected sensor to the ground and the tach wire, voila, everything is working just like original.
> 
> Just as I finished up all the wiring, big yellow truck pulled up and unloaded my long awaited batteries
> 
> ...


That's awesome! Do you have a picture of the tach setup on the motor?


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## dimitri (May 16, 2008)

Hope you can make it out on this pic.


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## DIYguy (Sep 18, 2008)

Looking very nice Dimitri. Must feel good. 
Are you using a breaker at all? 
Do you plan to mount a piece of Lexan or any other clear cover over your control board? 
How do the size of the tips of your tach "pointer" (metal strip) compare to the OEM one? 
I am wondering about signal duration for pickup... had some thoughts (and one comment) that this may be too short of a duration on mine. I'll grap a pic....tell me what you think. Did you rev yours up at all?
http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=1864&stc=1&thumb=1&d=1233687434


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## dimitri (May 16, 2008)

Pulse width is not that important, its counting edges, not platos.

I tested mine by putting that strip into the drill, drill is 1300 RPM. I held the sensor and the drill steady and looked at the tach needle. It was right on 1300 RPM.


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## PatricioIN (Jun 13, 2008)

dimitri said:


> Hope you can make it out on this pic.
> 
> View attachment 2566


this is entirely too simple... it's great. I wonder if it will work just the same way with mine as it is basically a Mazda as well. Well, providing my motor turns again eventually.. lol


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## PatricioIN (Jun 13, 2008)

Seriously, you and Brian should get together and open your own EV conversion shop. You could spit one of these a week out easy.


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## bblocher (Jul 30, 2008)

PatricioIN said:


> this is entirely too simple... it's great. I wonder if it will work just the same way with mine as it is basically a Mazda as well. Well, providing my motor turns again eventually.. lol


What?!? What's wrong with your motor or car for that matter?


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## PatricioIN (Jun 13, 2008)

oh let's not even get into it.... I will wait until it gets a bit warmer here to even investigate...


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## bblocher (Jul 30, 2008)

PatricioIN said:


> oh let's not even get into it.... I will wait until it gets a bit warmer here to even investigate...


Sorry man.


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## dimitri (May 16, 2008)

DIYguy said:


> Are you using a breaker at all?
> Do you plan to mount a piece of Lexan or any other clear cover over your control board?


I do not have circuit breaker. I think there is enough safety in 2 contactors and the fuse. 

I will have Zivan charger mounted over the control board, so no Lexan.

Today I finished front battery tray, here is the trial fit.

Now I am working on rear battery box and tray, no pics yet.


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## dimitri (May 16, 2008)

Finally all batteries are in place. 20 cells sunk in the trunk floor, 12 behind the rear seats and 8 under the hood, total of 40 cells.









Just got my PakTrakr and 5 remotes, each for 8 cells, will be installing those next along with all the cell connections.


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## PatricioIN (Jun 13, 2008)

looks great so far. Shame you couldn't find room for those 12 in the front motor compartment somewhere. Are lithium batts affected by cold weather like LA batts? Do they vent gas when charging like LA?


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## dimitri (May 16, 2008)

These cells don't gas and handle low temp much better than LA. This layout is the best I could come up with. Its actually pretty good, most of the trunk space is useable and the row of 12 will be covered, you'll see in a final pics.


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## dimitri (May 16, 2008)

Here is the picture of my PakTrakr and Ammeter in the pillar gauge pod. I rounded PakTrakr's square face to make it look more appropriate. It's not connected to remotes yet, hence blank screen.


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## bblocher (Jul 30, 2008)

Very custom looking!


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## dimitri (May 16, 2008)

Some progress to report. I wired all 5 Paktrakr remotes and wired all cell connections, charger, etc. Pretty much everything is wired except the controller. Paktrakr came alive and I also did initial pack charge, see the "LiFePo4 experience" thread in Batteries forum for details of that process 

Here are some pics.


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## bblocher (Jul 30, 2008)

What's the status on the controller? Is that going to come through in time or will you need to look into something else?


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## dimitri (May 16, 2008)

Funny you ask  there is a new thread in Controllers forum showing prototype. First production unit of this controller has my name on it, according to the company owner 

I can't wait to get my hands on it....


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## speculawyer (Feb 10, 2009)

In my continuing battery obsession, can you please tell us where you bought your Thundersky batteries and how much they cost?


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## dimitri (May 16, 2008)

speculawyer said:


> In my continuing battery obsession, can you please tell us where you bought your Thundersky batteries and how much they cost?


 I answered this question in post #8 on page 1 of this thread.


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## dimitri (May 16, 2008)

This weekend was fun, I got cell balancer kits from Brian and setup a small sweatshop - my wife and 10 year old son were installing components into the PCBs and I was soldering and crimping connections. 40 balancers were done in about 7 hours, everyone enjoyed it 

here are boards before heat sinks







here is final product







here are cell balancers happily LEDing on top of TS cells








Once all 40 boards were installed, I fired up Zivan NG3 charger and within few hours all cells were shining red LEDs and few minutes after that charger turned itself off. Whoo hoo, first charge is done! PakTrakr shows 144V and all cells are equally charged to 3.6V each.

Bad news is that once I finished working with batteries I lowered the car onto its wheels and realized that I will need to upgrade rear springs. Rear sits 1.5 inch lower than before and battery box in dangerously close to the ground. I will need to raise the rear by 2 inches...
I was hoping that lower weight of lithium and removal of gas tank and exhaust would allow to keep OEM springs, but no cigar...gotta raise it up...
Its not a huge setback, but a hassle and extra expenses


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## PatricioIN (Jun 13, 2008)

I really can't wait for you to get this finished and put a couple of hundred miles on it, so that we can all hear the analysis of the finished product. Plus, it would be great to see the overall project cost. There are so many of us who would like to evenutally do a conversion with lithium cells, and yours is a very good looking, modern conversion.


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## bblocher (Jul 30, 2008)

dimitri said:


> This weekend was fun, I got cell balancer kits from Brian and setup a small sweatshop - my wife and 10 year old son were installing components into the PCBs and I was soldering and crimping connections. 40 balancers were done in about 7 hours, everyone enjoyed it


Woohoo! Glad to see those balancers worked out well. No fair though, you had an extra person and sounds like you built yours a bit faster. 

Congrats! Still not sure how you will wait for that controller to get finished. I'd be too impatient and go another route myself, even if temporarily. I guess it not being the first EV for you makes the difference.


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## dimitri (May 16, 2008)

Patrick, thanks, I got a few ideas from your build, so you have contributed to this project too 

Brian, patience is not one of my virtues either  , but you've seen prototype pics of BMF-750 , how can you not wait for THAT?

I'll be working on rear springs this week to keep myself busy, hopefully that controller will be ready soon...

thanks all for your moral support


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## JimK (Mar 21, 2009)

Dimitri,

I just saw this beast of a controller and can't wait to hear all about it when it's installed and running.


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## dimitri (May 16, 2008)

Here is what the finished trunk looks like, still lots of room for groceries and such. Clear floor pad allows me to see LEDs on cell balancers, yet prevent plexiglass that covers battery box from scratching up over time.

I ordered Ground Control coilover kit with higher spring rates to raise the rear end, will post pics of that once it arrives next week.

Still waiting for that controller


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## Muju (Jan 25, 2008)

Hi there from a long time lurker!

Amazing looking conversion! Had a question about the controller vs those bats.  What are the TS LiFePos rated at for amp draw? The BMF can pull 750 amps correct? I have read in other treads that continuous draw on the LiFePos is under 200 and only safe to surge up to 400 (don't know if these numbers are correct). Is there a danger of over drawing LiFePos with such a powerfull controller?


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## bblocher (Jul 30, 2008)

Muju said:


> Hi there from a long time lurker!
> 
> Amazing looking conversion! Had a question about the controller vs those bats. What are the TS LiFePos rated at for amp draw? The BMF can pull 750 amps correct? I have read in other treads that continuous draw on the LiFePos is under 200 and only safe to surge up to 400 (don't know if these numbers are correct). Is there a danger of over drawing LiFePos with such a powerfull controller?


LiFePo4 amp draws are based on the size of the cell as well for the TS cells. The 160Ah cells he is using are rated for 3C continuous and 10C pulsed. So you should be able to pull 480 amps until they are dead and still safely pull 750 for quick durations (accelerating / passing).


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## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

Muju said:


> ... Had a question about the controller vs those bats. What are the TS LiFePos rated at for amp draw? The BMF can pull 750 amps correct? ...


The, umm.. "BMF 750" can deliver 750 _motor_ amps. Only when a controller is at 100% duty cycle will the battery amps equal the motor amps_. _For _every_ PWM motor controller the following equations apply:

Battery Amps = Motor Amps * Duty Cycle
Motor Volts = Battery Volts * Duty Cycle

If you floor it from a stop you *might* hit a 50% duty cycle at first, so maybe drawing as much as 375 battery amps which is tough on 100-200Ah batteries, no doubt, but not nearly as tough as 750A 

Still, my understanding of the LiFePO4 chemistry is that it is much more tolerant/capable of huge surge currents without ill effects.


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## Muju (Jan 25, 2008)

bblocher said:


> LiFePo4 amp draws are based on the size of the cell as well for the TS cells. The 160Ah cells he is using are rated for 3C continuous and 10C pulsed. So you should be able to pull 480 amps until they are dead and still safely pull 750 for quick durations (accelerating / passing).


Thanks for the quick response! That makes more sense. I am still a little fuzzy on the 3C vs 10C nomenclature. Thanks for simplifying it for me 

The numbers I saw were probably for the 60 amp hour LiFePo4s. So running the 160Ah cells with something like the Curtis 1231C would still be a quick little car correct?


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## Muju (Jan 25, 2008)

Tesseract said:


> The, umm.. "BMF 750" can deliver 750 _motor_ amps. Only when a controller is at 100% duty cycle will the battery amps equal the motor amps_. _For _every_ PWM motor controller the following equations apply:
> 
> Battery Amps = Motor Amps * Duty Cycle
> Motor Volts = Battery Volts * Duty Cycle
> ...


See this is why I need to post more and lurk less, so I learn things like this  Thanks for the lesson! I can not wait to see what your controller can do, and what the final name will be. Unless the BMF nickname ends up sticking.


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## dimitri (May 16, 2008)

Whoa, step away from computer for 30 min and suddenly everyone in all over my thread 

totally agree with all responses above, just wanted to add one thing...you read this forum and everyone is going nuts about crazy amps and torque and 10C and all that good stuff, but all that applies only if you drive the car by flooring it from the stop and never letting go of that gas pedal. Seems like everyone here is a drag racer, well... I am not. I don't plan on flooring it every time ( ok, you got me I'll floor it few times  ). I am not known by driving a speed limit, if you know what I mean  , but this is just a family sedan, not a freaking Formula1. I don't plan on ever exceeding 50% duty cycle during my normal driving, but its nice to know that I pack a punch if I have to get out of a traffic once in a while 

All I'm saying is, doesn't matter how big the controller or the motor or the battery, as long as you are in control of it....

I expect this car to pull 150-200 Amps normally, so just around my 1C rate. In fact I believe the best way to size the LeFePo4 pack is to use nominal amp pull as minimal battery size, and maximum is driven by allowed room, weight and the size of your wallet


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## dimitri (May 16, 2008)

Time for an update.... Ground Control coilover kit came in.








See how much shorter GC springs vs. OEM springs? But GC rear springs were ordered with stiffer rate, and after I put them in the rear is sitting at exact same height as original, woohoo!

Installation was a breeze, trim removal in the back to get to those bolts holding the shocks in place was the hardest part, the rest was nothing.

Unfortunately GC only sells a kit for all 4 wheels, so I ended up with front coilovers that I don't need, hopefully someone will buy them on Ebay.

SAFETY NOTE: Anyone who will be attempting to upgrade their suspension, please don't forget to use spring compressor tool to remove OEM springs. Its a FREE rental at Advanced Auto Parts. If you remove the nut on top of the shock without compressing the spring you will be in a world of surprises  and, no, I did not learn it the hard way, I RTFM


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## bblocher (Jul 30, 2008)

Shiny red to match the brakes and motor  Looking good.


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## dimitri (May 16, 2008)

bblocher said:


> Shiny red to match the brakes and motor  Looking good.


Yea, too bad you can't really see them unless you stick your head into the wheel well 

Hey, BTW, how did you manage not to upgrade your springs with all those batteries? Is the car sitting lower than before? Is it still acceptable? Obviously you have good weight distribution, but still 500Lb of extra weight is no joke for a roadster.


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## bblocher (Jul 30, 2008)

dimitri said:


> Yea, too bad you can't really see them unless you stick your head into the wheel well
> 
> Hey, BTW, how did you manage not to upgrade your springs with all those batteries? Is the car sitting lower than before? Is it still acceptable? Obviously you have good weight distribution, but still 500Lb of extra weight is no joke for a roadster.


I'm 1/2" lower in the front (30 cells), and 1/4" higher in the rear (15 cells plus 40 pound charger). I probably could do something to the front springs. How much did your rear drop?


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## dimitri (May 16, 2008)

bblocher said:


> I'm 1/2" lower in the front (30 cells), and 1/4" higher in the rear (15 cells plus 40 pound charger). I probably could do something to the front springs. How much did your rear drop?


My rear dropped 1.5" with 32 cells, front is 0.5" higher. I could not bear 1.5" drop, it looked real bad and battery box was too close to the ground. Now with new springs it looks just like original, although front is a bit higher, its not noticeable.

So, I guess your front cells balanced out all the ICE crap that came out and fuel tank in the rear along with exhaust. You are lucky not to require suspension work, I wouldn't bother with half inch drop, unless its bouncing too much due to extra weight, then you'd need stiff shocks and springs.


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## bblocher (Jul 30, 2008)

dimitri said:


> My rear dropped 1.5" with 32 cells, front is 0.5" higher. I could not bear 1.5" drop, it looked real bad and battery box was too close to the ground. Now with new springs it looks just like original, although front is a bit higher, its not noticeable.
> 
> So, I guess your front cells balanced out all the ICE crap that came out and fuel tank in the rear along with exhaust. You are lucky not to require suspension work, I wouldn't bother with half inch drop, unless its bouncing too much due to extra weight, then you'd need stiff shocks and springs.


The suspension in that car was already VERY stiff and might have something to do with it not dropping much also. Now I'm just a little lower to the ground (less drag maybe hehe). It still rides great, I've taken it through some hard corners and it's still on rails


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## dimitri (May 16, 2008)

"Squeaky wheel gets the grease" 
I annoyed the company owner who has promised me first unit of BMF-750 so much, that he loaned me Kelly KHD14500B just so I can leave them alone and let them finish new controller in peace
Naturally, I immediately mounted it in the car on a decent size heat sink ( which was also graciously provided with Kelly ) and wired everything up.

Luckily my son's old laptop still had serial port, my last 2 laptops came with USBs only, so I could run the config program for Kelly.

Drum roll,,,,,,,turn the key,,,,its alive 

I adjusted my idle pot to about 500 RPM, its very smooth and quiet, pulling only about 10Amp, hard to see on 500Amp gauge, the needle just barely moves.

Transmission shifter works, normal response to changing gears while pressing the break, idle slows down a little under load when put in Drive or Reverse.

Well, it hasn't moved yet, I need to finish some wiring so I can close the hood and clear up garage space in front of the EV, so I can take it on its maiden voyage  , but it will definitely be today.....stay tuned folks...


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## TheSGC (Nov 15, 2007)

dimitri said:


> "Squeaky wheel gets the grease"
> I annoyed the company owner who has promised me first unit of BMF-750 so much, that he loaned me Kelly KHD14500B just so I can leave them alone and let them finish new controller in peace
> Naturally, I immediately mounted it in the car on a decent size heat sink ( which was also graciously provided with Kelly ) and wired everything up.
> 
> ...



I want to see this IDLE Pot wiring/config!!!! Definitely staying tuned!


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## bblocher (Jul 30, 2008)

dimitri said:


> "Squeaky wheel gets the grease"
> I annoyed the company owner who has promised me first unit of BMF-750 so much, that he loaned me Kelly KHD14500B just so I can leave them alone and let them finish new controller in peace
> Naturally, I immediately mounted it in the car on a decent size heat sink ( which was also graciously provided with Kelly ) and wired everything up.
> 
> ...


Sweet! Get some video on YouTube or something for us too!


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## dimitri (May 16, 2008)

Not much of a good news... it got out of the garage, drove for a mile around the neighborhood, but there is no power, I can't get past 100Amps at full throttle in 1st gear, less than 2000 RPM. Kelly gets pretty hot quickly, hot to touch, along with the sink.

In park, it spins to 4000RPM easily, but in gear there is no power. Also I can't figure out if I have too much or too little ATF in the tranny, I am asking guys in the Auto tranny thread about it.


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## TheSGC (Nov 15, 2007)

Dimitri, what settings are you using for the Kelly? I have been playing a lot with my 96 volt 400 Kelly and I can get my little 6.7" to spin 4000 RPM while driving, up to 45 MPH in 2nd gear. 

I did find the Torque setting for the Kelly to be awful for speed. Balanced Mode gave me very drivable car and hill performance, and the controller barely gets warm. My little K99-4007, on the other hand, was toasting up so much I had to upgrade to a larger motor, which I am still waiting on.

Also, the Low Voltage shutdown should be low, like 118 for a 144 volt system. When I first drove my EV, I couldn't get past 20 MPH because the mode was at Torque, Low Voltage Shutdown was too high and my throttle was not properly adjusted.


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## dimitri (May 16, 2008)

TheSGC said:


> Dimitri, what settings are you using for the Kelly? I have been playing a lot with my 96 volt 400 Kelly and I can get my little 6.7" to spin 4000 RPM while driving, up to 45 MPH in 2nd gear.
> 
> I did find the Torque setting for the Kelly to be awful for speed. Balanced Mode gave me very drivable car and hill performance, and the controller barely gets warm. My little K99-4007, on the other hand, was toasting up so much I had to upgrade to a larger motor, which I am still waiting on.
> 
> Also, the Low Voltage shutdown should be low, like 118 for a 144 volt system. When I first drove my EV, I couldn't get past 20 MPH because the mode was at Torque, Low Voltage Shutdown was too high and my throttle was not properly adjusted.


 I tried both Torque and Speed mode, didn't see any difference in power. I set LVS at 115V with battery at 135V right now, there is no sag at all with my batteries and its not pulling any serious amps.
I will try balanced mode next and just to be sure, I'll set LVS ridiculously low, like 90V. I don't know what else to change. Throttle response is perfect in Park, spins from idle to 4000 RPM and could go further, I don't push it. But in gear, I can floor it and not get over 2000RPM.
I will be draining some ATF, I suspect I poured too much in to the tranny, so more tests tomorrow...


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## o-hi-o (Oct 23, 2007)

I haven't been around here much, but I'm getting to the point that I will have some money to convert my car to electric. I upgraded my suspension (springs, sway bars, shocks/struts) a while ago for autocross racing. Not to add to your woes, but I would recommend using the front springs, and getting something along the lines of a koni adjustable shock, or some bilstein Heavy Duty shocks to match to the stiffer springs. I got new springs on my car (much stiffer than stock) and within 3 weeks, my car bounced down the road like a pogo stick. The stock shocks will not be valved strong enough to control the stiffer springs. Also, the stock front springs with stiff rear springs may cause unwanted handling characteristics with the new weight distribution of the car. If the front is sitting at roughly the same ride height on stock springs, I'd switch to the stiffer springs up front, since they are designed to control the front body weight in unison with the rear stiffer springs. 

Even without upgrading the front springs, I'd still expect your stock shocks to die in the near future. 

I'm not a pro at suspension, but I've built and rebuilt my car's (01 jetta) about 4 times because I kept wearing out on part when I'd upgrade another. With hindsight, I could have saved myself a lot of man hours under my car if I'd just bought springs, shocks, and sways(you are probably okay with stock sways) all at once. 

Hope that is helpful. I'm really enjoying your build.


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## bblocher (Jul 30, 2008)

dimitri said:


> Not much of a good news... it got out of the garage, drove for a mile around the neighborhood, but there is no power, I can't get past 100Amps at full throttle in 1st gear, less than 2000 RPM. Kelly gets pretty hot quickly, hot to touch, along with the sink.
> 
> In park, it spins to 4000RPM easily, but in gear there is no power. Also I can't figure out if I have too much or too little ATF in the tranny, I am asking guys in the Auto tranny thread about it.


Sounds like the controller to me. If you had some type of tranny problem you should still be seeing some high amps at those low RPMs.


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## dimitri (May 16, 2008)

OK, I believe I have proper level of ATF in the tranny now, it was definitely overfilled by 1.5 quarts.

Pretty sure this controller is not up to the job for Warp9. When it was cold the car drove out of the garage normally and got to 20 MPH, but as soon as controller got hot enough, the power disappeared and it limped back home.

I set controller to SGC's recommendations, but it still won't push more than 100Amps, measured on the battery side, BTW.

In Park, while idling, it responds to throttle like crazy, spins up to 4000RPM in a blink of an eye, at very low amps. So, I don't think I have any mechanical issues at this time, it must be poor controller, which is not very surprising, this thing is so small, I think it belongs in a scooter or a motorcycle. Perhaps it works better with smaller motors with less EMF coming back from the motor, I don't know.

I like the features of this Kelly and how it hooks up to laptop and all the bells and whistles you can change. I hope my new controller will have some of these features. I especially like ability to adjust throttle sensitivity and operating range. I think Kelly has the digital part figured out pretty well, but the power end is pretty pathetic, they should at least label it properly, if it does 100 Amp, then sell it as such, don't slap 500Amp label on it, damn it 

So anyway, I am back to waiting for new controller for now, although I can still work out my charging cycles now that I can burn some energy, I can use the charger and see how the pack balances.

I also found that Air Conditioning does not kick in, so I need to look at the schematics and find where it depends on ICE ECU and bypass it somehow.

Overall, I can keep myself busy for now, and leave Tesseract alone, poor guy doesn't want to talk to me anymore


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## TheSGC (Nov 15, 2007)

You wouldn't be able to post screen shots of all the Kelly settings would you? I think something must be wacked, cause my less powerful Kelly can pull over 215 battery AMPs, and deliver the full 400 AMPs to the motor within it's ratings. Also, my heatsink is a 3/4" thick aluminum plate that just absorbs the heat.


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## dimitri (May 16, 2008)

o-hi-o said:


> I got new springs on my car (much stiffer than stock) and within 3 weeks, my car bounced down the road like a pogo stick. The stock shocks will not be valved strong enough to control the stiffer springs. Also, the stock front springs with stiff rear springs may cause unwanted handling characteristics with the new weight distribution of the car. If the front is sitting at roughly the same ride height on stock springs, I'd switch to the stiffer springs up front, since they are designed to control the front body weight in unison with the rear stiffer springs.
> 
> Even without upgrading the front springs, I'd still expect your stock shocks to die in the near future.
> Hope that is helpful. I'm really enjoying your build.


Thanks for feedback, and welcome to the forum! Yes, I am expecting my rear shocks to die untimely death, but I just didn't want to spend more money until I get the car all working, its been a real money pit without any results yet 
On my first EV, I upgraded all 4 shocks and springs to adjustable KYBs and it worked out great, but I can't find stiff or adjustable rear shocks for Protege, at least not on Ebay. If you can point me to stiff shocks for Protege I'd appreciate it.

I disagree about changing the front though, if front weight didn't change, there is no point in putting stiff springs there, it would make it sit higher, which would be OK with GC coilovers, since I can adjust them, but I just don't see a need right now. Perhaps I will change my mind after I drive it around for a while.

Thanks


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## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

dimitri said:


> I like the features of this Kelly and how it hooks up to laptop and all the bells and whistles you can change. I hope my new controller will have some of these features. I especially like ability to adjust throttle sensitivity and operating range. I think Kelly has the digital part figured out pretty well,...


Have no fear, Dimitri, your new controller will be very programmable. In fact, the "API" will be made public so anyone who wants to can write their own interface to it. At first, though, it will be Stone Age- era typing in commands and parameters through a browser. We'd take more time to polish all of this up, but....




dimitri said:


> Overall, I can keep myself busy for now, and leave Tesseract alone, poor guy doesn't want to talk to me anymore


...someone keeps sending me these, "are we there yet???" e-mails!


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## dimitri (May 16, 2008)

TheSGC said:


> You wouldn't be able to post screen shots of all the Kelly settings would you? I think something must be wacked, cause my less powerful Kelly can pull over 215 battery AMPs, and deliver the full 400 AMPs to the motor within it's ratings. Also, my heatsink is a 3/4" thick aluminum plate that just absorbs the heat.


 Here are 3 main screens, the rest is all disabled since its regen related. I don't see what else I can do with it? I tried many different settings just to see the effect, but it doesn't help in getting more amps thru this puppy.

Please note, this is probably an older model, since it does not have B at the end. I read that Kelly had lots of improvements on latest and more powerful models, so this one is just not cutting it.

Also, your model might be better at pushing amps since its lower voltage.

I searched this forum for all Kelly related info, seems I am not alone in not getting power out of it, although at least its not blowing up.... yet


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## TheSGC (Nov 15, 2007)

Your settings look EXACTLY like mine, but I do have a question on your throttle- How it is setup, with the IDLE and all? I know the Kelly's throttle is a pain, and I still haven't figured out IDLE for my setup, so maybe something is FUBAR.


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## dimitri (May 16, 2008)

Throttle works great, perfect response in Park mode and with wheels off the ground ( more on this later ). I used one of Kelly's own option for 2 wire 5K resistor based throttle (I have Curtis throttle in my EV), where you connect 1K resistor to 5V out, then to trottle, and the other end of throttle to the ground. This effectively is same as connecting 3rd wire to the throttle like you did, only without the hassle of opening up throttle case. This effectively creates a 6K ( 5K + 1K ) throttle with limited operating range ( last 1K is not used ). So, on Kelly I set 90% upper range to compensate for this 1K extra. Hope this makes sense, its much easier on picture than in words.

As for idle, I will publish it as soon as I find time to make proper schematic on the PC, right now its just a scribble on piece of paper. It only takes 2 parts, DPDT relay and 1K precision pot. It uses starter wire to energize the relay, which opens the pot in series with the throttle. Wait couple days for schematic if you can.


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## dimitri (May 16, 2008)

Just to keep testing, I raised the front wheels off the ground and tried to "drive". Since it doesn't take much current to run like this, the motor easily reaches 4000 RPM and could go higher if I let it, I don't push it past 4000 obviously.

Here is the weirdest part, as I "drive" the motor from 0 to 4000RPM, speedometer goes up to 70MPH  , but I can't hear transmission shift 

Its not possible to go to 70MPH in first gear, right? But shouldn't I hear or feel the shifting? I usually do in my ICE auto car. Even in this car I remember "feeling" gear shifts back in its past ICE life. Maybe since there is no load on wheels I don't "feel" it? 

I am totally confused by this. There is no noise from ICE, I hear gears spinning, wheels spinning, motor whining, but I don't hear any gear changes. What gives?????


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## Jimdear2 (Oct 12, 2008)

dimitri,

I went looking in the Mazda books and found that your transmission is electronic and controlled by the PCM. This means that you have to be fooling the PCM into thinking the ICE is still there. 

For sure you have to have a throttle position signal and a motor rpm signal going to the PCM or the transmission will not operate (shift). Those signals have to be input through the normal ICE connections so they go to all the right places.

If you still have the ICE you should be able to remove the throttle position sensor and rpm sensor. With a little inginuity you should be able to feed those signals back to the PCM.

Read back through both the transmission will and won't work threads I think I remember some mention of someone solving those problems already.

For one guy (I think also with a Mazda) it was just a missing fuse for the fuel pump I beleive that fuse also ran the PCM.

I don't know where you skill levels are in this stuff, if you are weak you should try to find a mentor. Someone who understands and is familiar with it. You will for sure need a factory manual. Not Chilton or Haynes, a Factory manual. A good source of help might be your local high school auto repair programs. Some of those teachers and students are pretty sharp.

I can keep trying to help, but I've always been a hands on type. Long distance diagnostics is difficult.

Let me know where you are at with an RPM and throttle position sensor.

We can just keep trying.


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## dimitri (May 16, 2008)

Jim, 

I got all that, I have complete manual, whole nine yards. I read schematics real well. I think you are wrong about RPM sensor from ICE. There is separate turbine sensor at the transmission, which is still intact. Also I knew about TPS, so I have it all hooked up, there is a pic of it early in this thread. 

I think that ECU for trans and ICE is somewhat independant, although its a single unit. I have a table of every ECU pin's function and expected signals.

I should be able to make it work, but first I need to make sure it doesn't work. How do you explain 70MPH at the wheels if tranny wasn't shifting? On the other hand, why don't I hear it? 

I can connect the multimeter to solenoid harness and see the shift patterns there, just haven't done it yet.


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## TheSGC (Nov 15, 2007)

Are all the transmission plugs in correctly? And did you use a OBDII scanner to take a look at the errors? When I drove around in my EV I really couldn't tell it was shifting. I could tell when it down shifts, but not upshifting. I like to keep it in 2nd gear and it has a cool motor wine to it, but if I leave it in D3 and forgot to shift, I don't hear the wine and that's when I know something has happened.

I really didn't like the Kelly' hack for the Curtis PB throttle, so I just rewirede my PB5 to function exactly like it should. My own expermients with it showed something like a 50% effectiveness, so that might be a big problem too. Maybe you should try the Kelly without your IDLE control is see what what does, you know remove any "strange" variables from the equation. (Damn, now I do sound like an engineer- college is working)

No way you can get to 70 MPH in 1st gear. Maybe 35 MPH, but by then your motor is grenading.


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## Jimdear2 (Oct 12, 2008)

dimitri said:


> Just to keep testing, I raised the front wheels off the ground and tried to "drive". Since it doesn't take much current to run like this, the motor easily reaches 4000 RPM and could go higher if I let it, I don't push it past 4000 obviously.
> 
> Here is the weirdest part, as I "drive" the motor from 0 to 4000RPM, speedometer goes up to 70MPH  , but I can't hear transmission shift
> 
> ...


dinitri,

Your transmission is seeing some Powertrain Control Module problems and is in LIMP MODE (I beleive that is third gear and reverse in that transmission). It will NOT shift in this mode. It is designed to move the car to a safe location to wait for a tow truck. Get your owners manual out and it should tell you.You will have to get the PCM problems sorted out. Read and clear any powertain codes from the PCM. Fix the problems the codes indicate, and try again. You might need to do this a couple of times. Read my other post for some hints.


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## Jimdear2 (Oct 12, 2008)

dimitri said:


> Jim,
> 
> I got all that, I have complete manual, whole nine yards. I read schematics real well. I think you are wrong about RPM sensor from ICE. There is separate turbine sensor at the transmission, which is still intact. Also I knew about TPS, so I have it all hooked up, there is a pic of it early in this thread.
> 
> ...


Dinitri,

Sorry I'm getting behind I'm a very slow typest.

I guarentee that you need an engine RPM signal for the transmission to work.

Glad to see your skill level is high. 

Double check your schmatics you will find that you need a two pulse per revolution (for a 4 cylinder engine) input to the PCM. If tou dont have one find, borrow or rent a code scanner or a full out scan tool.

It sure sounds like your trans is in LIMP MODE.


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## Jimdear2 (Oct 12, 2008)

Dimitri,

The transmission torque converter lock up map reqiuires input from both crankshft and turbine shaft to know what the TC is doing amoung other things. 

The PCM can't / won't lock the converter clutch unless it knows how fast the trans (turbine shaft speed sensor) and motor (rpm sensor) are turning.

In some transmissions the VSS signal is also considered.


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## dimitri (May 16, 2008)

Jimdear2 said:


> Dinitri,
> 
> Sorry I'm getting behind I'm a very slow typest.
> 
> ...


I think you are correct about LIMP MODE, it would explain what I am seeing, or not seeing 

RPM signal is tricky, there are 2 sensors, cam shaft and crank shaft. Crank shaft had 35 tooth wheel on it, so its 35 pulses per revolution. Cam shaft has 3 pulses, but not equally spaced, 1 on one side of the revolution and 2 next to each other on the other side. So, which one of these does ECU need? I need to read the book some more, I am still not convinced about this. Why have turbine sensor if you read RPM from the engine? Its redundant.

EDIT: Ok, I see your point about TC lock, so that explains the need for turbine and crank shaft. I wrongly assumed that turbine is same as crank shaft.


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## Jimdear2 (Oct 12, 2008)

dimitri said:


> I think you are correct about LIMP MODE, it would explain what I am seeing, or not seeing
> 
> RPM signal is tricky, there are 2 sensors, cam shaft and crank shaft. Crank shaft had 35 tooth wheel on it, so its 35 pulses per revolution. Cam shaft has 3 pulses, but not equally spaced, 1 on one side of the revolution and 2 next to each other on the other side. So, which one of these does ECU need? I need to read the book some more, I am still not convinced about this. Why have turbine sensor if you read RPM from the engine? Its redundant.
> 
> EDIT: Ok, I see your point about TC lock, so that explains the need for turbine and crank shaft. I wrongly assumed that turbine is same as crank shaft.


dimitri,

I beleive you are on the right track now. 

The control module also uses the difference in the two rpm speeds to control clutch engagment pressures, downshifts and many other things

My guess is you will need the wheel with 35 teeth. Mount this to the motor tailshaft along with the sensor. The Cam sensor is usually uses as a position sensor to locate exactly where the engine is in its cycle.

If this fixes the problem please post it to the "trans will" thread.

be well.


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## TheSGC (Nov 15, 2007)

I know this is stupid, but unplug your TPS sensor give it another go. My tranny shifts fine and the only thing still connected is the VSS. And if that sensor goes kaput, it will lock into 2nd gear and go into LIMP mode. So maybe your VSS is funky and that's why your spedo is all over the place.


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## dimitri (May 16, 2008)

Jimdear2 said:


> My guess is you will need the wheel with 35 teeth. Mount this to the motor tailshaft along with the sensor.
> 
> If this fixes the problem please post it to the "trans will" thread.
> 
> be well.


I didn't keep 35 tooth wheel because I couldn't remove the damn bolt on the main crank pulley and the guy who bought the engine was waiting, so I gave it up.

I can make new 35 tooth metal disk, its not that complicated, but time consuming, I wish I knew for sure that it would work 

I got my tach working by sending 2 pulses straight to the tach input on instrument cluster, bypassing the ECU. Normally ECU generates 2 pulse signal based on 35 pulse signal, so I guess if I make 35 tooth wheel, then I can connect tach back to ECU.

I was afraid that ECU would just lock up because of all the emission system crap, there is no way I can simulate all emission system signals, I might as well just buy after market TCU for $750 

I need to get OBDII scanner and see what codes there are. I will also go thru LIMP MODE troubleshooting in the book.

Thanks


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## dimitri (May 16, 2008)

TheSGC said:


> I know this is stupid, but unplug your TPS sensor give it another go. My tranny shifts fine and the only thing still connected is the VSS. And if that sensor goes kaput, it will lock into 2nd gear and go into LIMP mode. So maybe your VSS is funky and that's why your spedo is all over the place.


 My VSS is fine, its all intact and plugged in, speedo is working properly, it's not all over the place. Actually from what Jim said it sounds like its in 3rd gear and that is why the car accelerates so slow especially with 100 Amp controller. Another thing that confirms the LIMP mode is that reverse gear is working pretty well, car drives in reverse better than forward 

No harm in unplugging the TPS, I will definitely try that soon...


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## dimitri (May 16, 2008)

TheSGC said:


> My tranny shifts fine and the only thing still connected is the VSS.


So, you don't have any RPM signal going into the ECU? Hmm, strange that it still shifts....


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## Jimdear2 (Oct 12, 2008)

dimitri said:


> So, you don't have any RPM signal going into the ECU? Hmm, strange that it still shifts....


Hondas and Mazdas ~ Apple and Oranges. 

There's Honda's way  . . . and then there is everone elses. 

Of course Mazdas can be pretty wierd as well.

Also 1996 to 2002 was a period with big technology changes.


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## TheSGC (Nov 15, 2007)

dimitri said:


> So, you don't have any RPM signal going into the ECU? Hmm, strange that it still shifts....


My PCM uses 5 sensors for control:
________________
[Vehicle Speed Sensor] -------> | |
[Throttle Position Sensor]-----> | Driving Resistance| -> PCM
[Barometric Pressure Sensor]--> |_______________|
[Engine Coolant]-------------------------------------> PCM
[Shift Selector] -->[D Position]-----------------------> PCM

The PCM only needs one of the 3 "Driving Resistance" sensors to function, and the Coolant shows up as "cold" when unplugged and the shifter is intact, so no complaints.


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## TheSGC (Nov 15, 2007)

Jimdear2 said:


> Hondas and Mazdas ~ Apple and Oranges.
> 
> There's Honda's way  . . . and then there is everone elses.
> 
> ...


Got that right. Honda Civics uses the CW engines vs the rest of the world. My 04 Civic still uses a CW engine, but the Odyssey uses a CCW like the rest of civilization. Too confusing.

If removing the TPS does nothing, go get a OBDII scanner and spit back some results. You can rent them for free from Autozone, that's what I did, but I still plan on buying one eventually.


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## dimitri (May 16, 2008)

Jimdear2 said:


> Also 1996 to 2002 was a period with big technology changes.


That was one of the key decisions for me when selecting the donor, I wanted the car that is somewhat new, yet before all the CAN bus complexities. This year Mazda is the last one before CAN bus, and the full shop manual was available, I studied it before I even bought the car, so I can get familiar with all electronics and schematics.

I know I will make this thing work, just need a little time. Someday, I might even look at newer CAN bus stuff and figure that out. That's the best part of this hobby , you get to learn stuff you never thought you would. Year ago I didn't even change the oil on my own, now I forgot what auto shop looks like, except that my garage looks like one now


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## Jimdear2 (Oct 12, 2008)

dimitri said:


> That's the best part of this hobby , you get to learn stuff you never thought you would. Year ago I didn't even change the oil on my own, now I forgot what auto shop looks like, except that my garage looks like one now


dimetri,

Yep, your for sure a member of the greasy hand group now.

There is for sure somthing a lot more satisfying in seeing something you created in hard reality, then looking at a spread sheet and saying I increased productivity by .00001 %. 

I've done both. I'll take the doin' and makin' stuff everytime. I just wish I could make more money at it.


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## dimitri (May 16, 2008)

Jim, you are the man! I owe you one, heck I owe you more than one by now 

It was definitely missing RPM signal. I fabricated the 35 tooth wheel from 16 gauge steel, here is the pic. Its actually 35 teeth and one space, total of 36 positions, which is exactly 10 degrees per position, I am sure its not an accident. I found close up picture of new crank pulley for Protege on Ebay and counted teeth and saw the extra space.









I installed this wheel on rear shaft and adjusted the gap between teeth and the sensor, I also returned tachometer wire that I rerouted previously, back to its OEM place.

Started the car, woo hoo , transmission shifts perfectly, AC is working too ( it also needed RPM signal to engage magnetic clutch ) , tachometer is working much smoother now. 

Pretty much the car is ready to be driven, except Kelly controller is still pretty pathetic. It gets up to 200Amp now that proper gears are used, but after few minutes of driving it gets too hot and cuts back to 100Amps.

Time to wash it, its so dusty after 2 months of work that I can hardly see thru the windshield, and drive around the block with the EV grin 

Thanks for all your help. I will be posting more details as I learn more about the car's behavior.


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## Jimdear2 (Oct 12, 2008)

dimitri,

Wonderful.

You don't owe me anything, a wise man once said don't pay back, pay forward.

Glad you got it working correctly and that iwas something fairly simple. Plus you got to strighten out a couple more bugs while you were at it.

It's also good that you can have most/all systems working right when you start beta testing the BMF 750.

Good thing you saw that extra space and put it in. The fix may not have worked without it.. That notch helps the computer find TDC #1 cylinder. 

You may have to do your first test drive it at night. Otherwise you might blind oncomming traffic with the glare from your teeth showing your EV grim.


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## dimitri (May 16, 2008)

> It's also good that you can have most/all systems working right when you start beta testing the BMF 750


Yes, that was the idea, we knew that Kelly was not up to the task, it was just to keep me busy, so I stop annoying controller guys and let them do their job while I am doing mine 

I just put first 6 miles on this EV driving around the neighborhood 
Gave it a good wash and wax, put shine on interior panels, took my wife for a drive around the block 

The car starts in 1st gear, then shifts to 2nd and goes 25-30 mph nice and smooth. I can't go more than that since controller maxes out at 100 amps after couple of minutes.

All systems are working, power steering, air conditioning, power brakes, although I hate this Thomas pump, its so annoying, one day I'll get rid of it and put something more quiet in. $23 vacuum switch is also a piece of crap, it has no hysteresis at all, every touch of the brake pedal triggers the switch, I was trying to save few bucks on these components, I guess you get what you pay for... I'll have to upgrade these parts later.

Manual shifter works too, I can move between 1st and 2nd gear anytime, I love how smooth and quietly it drives and shifts, there is a little hum coming from Warp9 at the start, sounds fantastic 

Instrument cluster is all working except the fuel gauge, although temp gauge doesn't move up at all, I need to adjust its range by putting resistor in parallel with the temp sensor and find a nice operating range for Warp9's temperatures.


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## bblocher (Jul 30, 2008)

dimitri said:


> Yes, that was the idea, we knew that Kelly was not up to the task, it was just to keep me busy, so I stop annoying controller guys and let them do their job while I am doing mine
> 
> I just put first 6 miles on this EV driving around the neighborhood
> Gave it a good wash and wax, put shine on interior panels, took my wife for a drive around the block
> ...


Awesome! I haven't been getting any email updates for some reason on this thread. Glad you got the issue worked out!


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## DIYguy (Sep 18, 2008)

Jimdear2 said:


> You don't owe me anything, a wise man once said don't pay back, pay forward.


Not sure I've heard this before....but I really like it. (ask Gottdi ) Perhaps better said .... ALSO pay fwd?? 

Ok, I sometimes see multiple quotes from different posts.... how the heck do I do that? (u'd think I would know by now!) 

Guess I'll just have to do another post....


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## DIYguy (Sep 18, 2008)

dimitri said:


> Yes, that was the idea, we knew that Kelly was not up to the task, it was just to keep me busy, so I stop annoying controller guys and let them do their job while I am doing mine
> 
> I just put first 6 miles on this EV driving around the neighborhood
> Gave it a good wash and wax, put shine on interior panels, took my wife for a drive around the block
> ...


Congratulations Dimitri! Very kewl. It must feel good when it all comes together. I think I may be challenged when it comes to the electrical stuff. I'll be asking for help I'm sure... Jimdear helped me also with my tach signal information...even though I haven't got there yet.


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## dimitri (May 16, 2008)

Thanks everyone for your kind words 

While I wait for new controller, I take the car out for a drive around the block every night, just to hear the electric hum and smell no fumes 

I also improved the temp gauge range by adding 1k pot in parallel with OEM temp sensor, this allows me to set the gauge minimum position, so from there I can see when Warp9 gets warmer even by little bit. 

Transmission shifting proved to be perfect with the TPS sensor hack, it shifts right where I want it.

Jim, I can't control TC lock separately, its part of OEM program, following same graph as shift points ( shown as shaded area on the graph ), but I think its acceptable as it is.
To control TC lock separately I would have to unplug it from TCU and create separate logic circuit for it, but I really don't see a need for such complications at this time...maybe someday when I get bored...


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## dimitri (May 16, 2008)

Couple of weeks back I ordered USB based OBDII diagnostic tool on Ebay, so I could read ECU codes and make sure I don't have any transmission related errors. Even though my tranny is working good now, the tool just arrived yesterday, so I tested it on my EV. Just like expected there are few DTC codes, all related to fuel and emission systems which have their sensors cut off, but no errors related to powertrain, which is awesome 

The tool connect to a laptop via USB and there is a small application that reads the data, here is what DTC screen looks like









What's even more awesome is the real time screen, showing various sensors data in real time, there are dozens to choose, I only show 3 most critical for the transmission here. Absolute Throttle Position is showing the value of my hack trimpot connected to TPS wires. This is the adjustment that controls the shift pattern. So, I can change it and watch the value on the screen reflecting my change and set it exactly where I want it based on the shift pattern graph I posted earlier. Sweet...

I can also see exact value of idle RPM, which I also control via trimpot. Its better than guessing it from slight movement of the tach needle.

Nice tool indeed... well worth $33 I paid for it


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## dimitri (May 16, 2008)

Hey guys, its been over a month since my last update. I have been waiting for my controller, while making some improvements to my wiring and BMS modules. Finally I have first Beta unit of EVnetics DC controller in my car, woo hoo . You can see in the pic below how cool this controller looks in the engine bay, its pretty impressive unit 

Just to warn everyone, during beta testing I am under limited disclosure agreement, so I cannot publish every technical detail until the unit is completely done. At this point the hardware is working and the software is working, but needs some fine tuning, some features aren't implemented yet, etc. Once its all done, the guys responsible for this fine piece of work will be able to talk about it on their own, if they choose so. And I am sure they will be glad to take orders from customers lurking on this forum 

Anyway, the car is moving, I got to 65 mph on my test drive today, transmission is shifting perfectly, I have TPS set to 30% , which gives me desired shift points. Motor runs around 3000-3500 RPM. My shifts are as follows 1>2 at 17mph, 2>3 at 34mph, 3>4 at 56mph.

Controller has Ethernet port, I have it connected to my laptop and during my test drives it logs live data to help engineers fine tune the software.

Not sure what else I can report, I will post later if I think of something. I forgot to note the odometer today, but I think I put 15-20 miles during today test drives. I am charging the pack tonight and tomorrow will start logging my mileage to estimate my range.

Here is the eye candy...


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## TheSGC (Nov 15, 2007)

That's great! The data logging is nice and I can't wait to hear about range.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Cool, the BMF lives. Do you know the maximum amps you've pulled? Do you have cell level low voltage protection or warning?


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## bblocher (Jul 30, 2008)

That's awesome. FINALLY you can drive it!!!


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## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

JRP3 said:


> Cool, the BMF lives. Do you know the maximum amps you've pulled? Do you have cell level low voltage protection or warning?


We asked Dimitri to please not reveal specific data about the controller until we are done beta testing it. If he ignores that request then he won't get any hardware or software upgrades 

That said, Qer came up with what I think is a fiendishly clever means of dealing with a dwindling battery pack: the controller simply limits motor current to whatever value allows the pack voltage to stay at or above a predefined minimum (in Dimitri's case, 100V, or 2.5V per cell).


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## dimitri (May 16, 2008)

JRP3 said:


> Cool, the BMF lives. Do you know the maximum amps you've pulled? Do you have cell level low voltage protection or warning?


Like Tesseract said, controller is protecting based on pack voltage, but I do also have LVC protection implemented in my BMS modules, which is my own revision of Volt Blochers. Each module has LVC and HVC feedback circuit, they are all connected to a 4 wire bus running back to my "EV Control Board". Control board will cut throttle 50% and sound annoying buzzer when any cell reaches 2.6V. So my pack is protected on both cell level and pack level for both Low and High voltage cutoff.

Last night was the first time I left my pack charging and went to bed instead of watching it like a hawk , I slept pretty well knowing I have decent BMS in place  , and when I got up in the morning, all was good, green light on the charger and 40 green lights on my cells, no funny smell, no smoke, no fire  , all cells are balanced with resting voltages difference of 0.1V, which will probably get even better over time.


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## bblocher (Jul 30, 2008)

Tesseract said:


> That said, Qer came up with what I think is a fiendishly clever means of dealing with a dwindling battery pack: the controller simply limits motor current to whatever value allows the pack voltage to stay at or above a predefined minimum (in Dimitri's case, 100V, or 2.5V per cell).


Very cool! Congrats on the progress all. Eager to hear all the details once it's out of beta.


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## dimitri (May 16, 2008)

I made a 20 mile round trip to the store today, first real useful trip in this EV  , first 3/4 gallon of gas saved, woo hoo 

Started with full pack, after 20 miles my PakTrakr shows 70% full SOC. I have no idea how conservative the PakTrakr SOC calculations are for LiFePo4 battery, but it looks like I can reach my planned range of 55-60 miles. I will not charge the pack until I hit LVC, just to see how many miles that would be.

During today's run I was cruising at 60-65 mph during 3 mile stretch of the road, most of the run was in 3rd gear, but 4th kicked in during that fast stretch. I may need to raise my shift points a little to allow RPMs to reach 4000 before it shifts, right now it shifts at 3500 RPM. I'm hoping that Warp9 will run cooler and more efficient at 4000, since it got pretty warm after this 20 miles run, I'd say 85-90C ( I really need to get a thermoprobe to stop guessing temp reading).


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## Harold in CR (Sep 8, 2008)

Sounds GOOD, guys.


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## tj4fa (May 25, 2008)

Very Cool!!  

Speaking of cool, is there a temperature sensor or fan for the controller if it starts to get hot or is that (very nice) heat sink the only method to cool it?

The reason I ask is that I think I've seen somewhere on another controller type that that brand of controller (or maybe it was a charger) needs to be mounted so the heat sink is on the top of the controller to better dissipate heat.

With the BMF controller, does it even matter?


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## dimitri (May 16, 2008)

tj4fa said:


> Very Cool!!
> 
> Speaking of cool, is there a temperature sensor or fan for the controller if it starts to get hot or is that (very nice) heat sink the only method to cool it?
> 
> ...


I'll leave this to Tesseract to answer 

Meanwhile, I have been running the car around today to see what my range is. I got comfortable 50 miles, only one cell got below 3V, couple of others close to 3V and all the rest still at 3.1. So, if my pack gets better balanced over time, I might get comfortable 55 miles, which is exactly what I planned, so I guess my math was pretty good 

My last run of 25 miles was at 65 mph almost entire time, so this range is pretty good considering almost constant draw of 200 Amps on a battery side. I also need to increase my shift point RPMs so that will give me even more range.

Also, Paktrakr SOC meter is pretty good, its showing 10% now, which is about right for those lowest cells.


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## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

tj4fa said:


> Very Cool!!
> 
> Speaking of cool, is there a temperature sensor or fan for the controller if it starts to get hot or is that (very nice) heat sink the only method to cool it?


There is a temp sensor bolted onto the heatsink right next to the module. Because of the thermal resistance from the actual chips inside the module through the baseplate to the heatink, we have to start limiting current when the sensor reads 45C at the rate of 10A per C. So, if you want maximum power from the "BMF" (and that is so not gonna survive as a product name, just as soon as we come up with a better one), you will need to use liquid cooling. That said, the fins on the heatsink allow it to still deliver usable power even if the liquid cooling system fails; thermal modeling predicts it should still be capable of 250A-300A per module.


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## dimitri (May 16, 2008)

I hope I am not breaking my disclosure agreement by stating that controller is not a bottleneck in my EV  I am seeing as much battery current as I want to see, up to 500 Amps during hard acceleration  and up to 450 Amps continuous battery current that allows me to easily accelerate while in traffic.I am passing people at 55-60 mph like there is no tomorrow 

I am able to maintain constant speeds over 70mph, although it requires 300-350 battery amps, so I can't say its good for my range, but I didn't plan this 128V battery for much freeway driving, so I am not surprised. I have to say that all my calculations are pretty much on target, which is a nice surprise 

As you gathered from previous post and the picture, controller is water cooled. This was recommended to maintain high performance in Florida weather. The only other controller that comes even close to these figures is of course Zilla, which is also water cooled when used in high performance modes.

I ran the cooling loop thru my original heater core, so as a benefit I got myself a winter heater, its not enough for the North climate, but its just what I need during those "chilly" Tampa mornings in February 

Its still in beta testing, final product will be much more powerful, keep your pants on people


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## honn1002 (Nov 26, 2008)

dimitri said:


> I hope I am not breaking my disclosure agreement by stating that controller is not a bottleneck in my EV  I am seeing as much battery current as I want to see, up to 500 Amps during hard acceleration  and up to 450 Amps continuous battery current that allows me to easily accelerate while in traffic.I am passing people at 55-60 mph like there is no tomorrow
> 
> I am able to maintain constant speeds over 70mph, although it requires 300-350 battery amps, so I can't say its good for my range, but I didn't plan this 128V battery for much freeway driving, so I am not surprised. I have to say that all my calculations are pretty much on target, which is a nice surprise
> 
> ...


Dimitri, 

Wow if you measured up to 500A of battery current during hard acceleration on the battery side of course, the motor current would be much more. You should measure the motor current where the current amplified by the controller. Then we can figure out the maximum current limit rated by the controller.


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## Qer (May 7, 2008)

honn1002 said:


> Then we can figure out the maximum current limit rated by the controller.


Well, when this thing's gonna be publically available rather than just for a few guinnea pi... I mean, lucky ones we will tell you all about Amps, Volts, Watts and whatever. So you really won't have to "figure out" things yourself...


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## dimitri (May 16, 2008)

honn1002 said:


> Dimitri,
> 
> Wow if you measured up to 500A of battery current during hard acceleration on the battery side of course, the motor current would be much more. You should measure the motor current where the current amplified by the controller. Then we can figure out the maximum current limit rated by the controller.


Honn, I don't need to measure anything, controller produces more data than you can swallow , its just that I am not allowed to make it public while in beta testing, so I only "teased" you with battery current data 

I probably shouldn't have posted even that without Tesseract's permission  , but he started talking about currents first in previous posts... I hope I won't lose my warranty now because of my big mouth 

Seriously though, I don't blame these guys for trying to keep the data private until the product is ready to sell. These public forums can be very cruel and tend to misconstruct the information and blow things out of proportion. Most people don't understand the amount of work involved in making a motor controller, I have been lucky to glance into this project and am I blown away by amount of engineering and work involved in making it a solid dependable product.

All I can tell you is that even in current beta stage it already blows Curtis out of the water and pretty much stands next to Zilla, but it will be twice as good when its all done, which is not too long now...


----------



## dimitri (May 16, 2008)

I got a non contact thermometer on Ebay, not a very good one  , but it works. Apparently my temp estimations using my hand were quite overrated 

After long runs, when motor and transmission temps are at their peak and no longer rising, I measured 52C or 125F on both motor and transmission, which I believe is well within safe operating limits, whew... what a relief...

As of today, 189 EV miles and going....


----------



## bblocher (Jul 30, 2008)

dimitri said:


> I got a non contact thermometer on Ebay, not a very good one  , but it works. Apparently my temp estimations using my hand were quite overrated
> 
> After long runs, when motor and transmission temps are at their peak and no longer rising, I measured 52C or 125F on both motor and transmission, which I believe is well within safe operating limits, whew... what a relief...
> 
> As of today, 189 EV miles and going....


The highest I've seen on mine is 150F which was on a 100F day after a 35 mile trip doing 65mph. I think the max rating on the ADC is 225F, I'm guessing the Warp is around that as well? I usually am at around 135F after this trip but with ambient temp 10-15F cooler as well.


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## PatricioIN (Jun 13, 2008)

I ran lead wires on my new electric motor to connect the overtemp sensor, but just haven't gotten around to installing a light or buzzer.. I really should get that done. What type of inexpensive 120v dc thermostat could I get that would be adjustable so that I can have a cooling fan come on over the controller at say 130F?? Seems like I've seen others do that on here.


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## blackpanther-st (Apr 4, 2009)

PatricioIN said:


> I ran lead wires on my new electric motor to connect the overtemp sensor, but just haven't gotten around to installing a light or buzzer.. I really should get that done. What type of inexpensive 120v dc thermostat could I get that would be adjustable so that I can have a cooling fan come on over the controller at say 130F?? Seems like I've seen others do that on here.


An electric hot water heater thermostat may be just the ticket. just make a bracket to hold it's under side in contact with your motor body.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Edit
I just realized that I mis read this and that you want this for your controller and not the motor. they are usually cooled with 12V computer fans, ( large ones like 120MM) many of these can be ordered with thermal sensor which varys the fan speed according to the sensor temp. (Newegg.com would be a good place to look for one.)

I am leaving my former answer because it may be useful to someone else looking for that solution.


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## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

PatricioIN said:


> I ran lead wires on my new electric motor to connect the overtemp sensor, but just haven't gotten around to installing a light or buzzer.. I really should get that done. What type of inexpensive *120v dc* thermostat could I get that would be adjustable so that I can have a cooling fan come on over the controller at say 130F?? Seems like I've seen others do that on here.


Switching high voltage DC is always expensive - I recommend using a solid state relay rated for DC (most are AC only!) if you must switch pack voltage to another load, especially if it's inductive. (EDIT - If you really need an adjustable thermostat, then I agree with the previous suggestion to use one from a water heater)

Otherwise, you could use a bimetallic disc thermostatic switch to automatically turn on a 12V fan, like this one:

http://search.digikey.com/scripts/DkSearch/dksus.dll?Detail&name=317-1439-ND

It closes at 122F and can switch up up to 8.5A at 12VDC. That should be way more than enough even for a blower for the motor (85% efficient, so 1.5-20kW of waste heat), much less the amount of air needed to cool a controller (>98% efficient, or 0.1-1.5kW of waste heat).

(Sorry for the thread derailment, Dimitri... Carry on folks, nothing to see here.  )


----------



## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Tesseract said:


> (EDIT - If you really need an adjustable thermostat, then I agree with the previous suggestion to use one from a water heater)


Can those handle DC pack level voltages?


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## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

JRP3 said:


> Can [the thermostats in water heaters] handle DC pack level voltages?


Not for long if the load draws more than a few hundred mA and/or is at all reactive (i.e. - inductive or capacitive). I concurred with this suggestion only because it is an inexpensive way to get an adjustable thermostat that covers the range in question.

Why would you want to use the pack voltage to power a fan (or any other load besides the motor and dc-dc converter), anyway? Bad idea in my opinion.


----------



## blackpanther-st (Apr 4, 2009)

Tesseract,

I seem to remember and old trick of placing a small value capacitor across the contacts of a DC switch to reduce the arcing. I think the idea was for the capacitor to hold the voltage differential just long enough for the contacts to fully separate. Are you familiar with this? Does it work?


----------



## Bowser330 (Jun 15, 2008)

Cruising at 70mph takes 300A from a pack of 128V?? thats 38.4 kw...

Why so much? I didnt think that a light car would need so much power to cruise??

Do I have one of the figures wrong?


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## dimitri (May 16, 2008)

Bowser330 said:


> Cruising at 70mph takes 300A from a pack of 128V?? thats 38.4 kw...
> 
> Why so much? I didnt think that a light car would need so much power to cruise??
> 
> Do I have one of the figures wrong?


The air drag is the key, it takes 100A to cruise 40-45mph, but 300A to cruise 70mph. I think its somewhat normal from everything I read on the subject of air drag, which increases exponentially with speed.

I also had all 4 windows rolled down, which contributes to even more air drag.


----------



## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Tesseract said:


> Not for long if the load draws more than a few hundred mA and/or is at all reactive (i.e. - inductive or capacitive). I concurred with this suggestion only because it is an inexpensive way to get an adjustable thermostat that covers the range in question.
> 
> Why would you want to use the pack voltage to power a fan (or any other load besides the motor and dc-dc converter), anyway? Bad idea in my opinion.


Liquid cabin heater, unless you know of a cheap pack voltage to 120 volt AC converter.


----------



## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

Bowser330 said:


> Cruising at 70mph takes 300A from a pack of 128V?? thats 38.4 kw...
> 
> Why so much? I didnt think that a light car would need so much power to cruise??
> 
> Do I have one of the figures wrong?


You are forgetting about the duty cycle. 

Motor power = Pack Voltage * Duty Cycle * Motor Current

And this is the sort of data I was hoping we could keep quiet about for another week or so until after the next board and code revisions were done, Dimitri. I may have Qer change the code for your controller to randomly reduce your current limit and flash the idiot light like a disco strobe...


----------



## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

JRP3 said:


> Liquid cabin heater, unless you know of a cheap pack voltage to 120 volt AC converter.


Ah... not something one worries about too much here in sunny Florida.

But they make these in various voltages, or does one have to stack up lower voltage elements in series to match a given pack voltage?


----------



## dimitri (May 16, 2008)

Tesseract said:


> You are forgetting about the duty cycle.
> 
> Motor power = Pack Voltage * Duty Cycle * Motor Current
> 
> And this is the sort of data I was hoping we could keep quiet about for another week or so until after the next board and code revisions were done, Dimitri. I may have Qer change the code for your controller to randomly reduce your current limit and flash the idiot light like a disco strobe...


My references have always been to the battery current, so EV Power = Pack Voltage * Battery Current, who cares what the motor does if we can measure how much is being sucked out of the battery


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

> But they make these in various voltages, or does one have to stack up lower voltage elements in series to match a given pack voltage?


 Well I'm using a 120 volt AC engine block heater that I'll hook to my 108 volt pack, but the AC thermostat won't survive, as Dimitri found out


----------



## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

blackpanther-st said:


> Tesseract,
> 
> I seem to remember and old trick of placing a small value capacitor across the contacts of a DC switch to reduce the arcing. I think the idea was for the capacitor to hold the voltage differential just long enough for the contacts to fully separate. Are you familiar with this? Does it work?


Oh sure, but one usually uses an RC - aka. a snubber. After all, it doesn't matter whether the switch is mechanical or a MOSFET, when you switch an inductive load you must deal with the kickback produced when the switch opens. You could also use a Transzorb (ruggedized zener diode) or a MOV.

BUT, you have know the total circuit inductance, resistance and whether these ever change (ie - whether the load is fixed and known, or variable/unknown) to be able to select the right values for both the resistor and capacitor, while the transzorb or mov has to handle a peak current at least as high as the load current, and a peak energy that depends, once again, on the inductance.

So, there is not a universal snubber, and remember that both MOVs and Transzorbs tend to fail shorted.


----------



## major (Apr 4, 2008)

dimitri said:


> My references have always been to the battery current, so EV Power = Pack Voltage * Battery Current, who cares what the motor does if we can measure how much is being sucked out of the battery


The motor cares, so you might care too when the motor craps out


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## dimitri (May 16, 2008)

JRP3 said:


> Well I'm using a 120 volt AC engine block heater that I'll hook to my 108 volt pack, but the AC thermostat won't survive, as Dimitri found out


I'm still baffled why simple bi-metal thermostat cares whether its AC or DC current  , is that because the contacts get welded shut by arcing while trying to interrupt the current? I looked at Digikey part that Tesseract mentioned, datasheet doesn't say it can't do DC, although current and voltage rating for DC is half of AC, so maybe that's the key here.

Funny thing about my experience with the heater is that it worked few times and then suddenly thermostat failed in closed position and heater element burned up within few seconds while violently boiling the water


----------



## dimitri (May 16, 2008)

JRP3,

thinking back of my heater experience made me realize a simple solution. Assuming you already have a DC relay to energize the heater when the switch is pressed on a dashboard ( or however else you drive it ). You can open up the heater, remove power wires from the thermostat and connect them directly to the heater element, solder 2 new wires to the thermostat and route them back to the DC relay. This way thermostat only switches the relay and not the power directly. Thermostat will be in series with the switch to energize the relay and interrupt it when hot.

Hope this makes sense.


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## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

dimitri said:


> I'm still baffled why simple bi-metal thermostat cares whether its AC or DC current  , is that because the contacts get welded shut by arcing while trying to interrupt the current?


AC passes through 0v 120 (or 100) times per second, DC doesn't, of course, and it is because of that that arcs tend to be self-extinguishing with AC and self-perpetuating with DC. It may take a kilovolt or two to initiate a arc but it might only take 30-40V to sustain it.





dimitri said:


> I looked at Digikey part that Tesseract mentioned, datasheet doesn't say it can't do DC, although current and voltage rating for DC is half of AC, so maybe that's the key here.


Download the datasheet. I seem to recall it is spec'ed up to 60V and 6A. Which seems a bit ambitious to me for that size switch. Might only have a cycle life in the thousands at that power level.


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## dimitri (May 16, 2008)

Makes sense, that explains my results. BTW, when I opened the heater post mortem, the thermostat looks exactly like the part you pointed out at Digikey  , so my suggestion of modifying the heater and separating thermostat circuit from power curcuit might work well and not require extra parts


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## dimitri (May 16, 2008)

major said:


> The motor cares, so you might care too when the motor craps out


Thanks major, you seem to be pretty good at taking words out of context , I am glad you are following my progress and ready to jump in to get me out of trouble, I appreciate that


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## Bowser330 (Jun 15, 2008)

dimitri said:


> The air drag is the key, it takes 100A to cruise 40-45mph, but 300A to cruise 70mph. I think its somewhat normal from everything I read on the subject of air drag, which increases exponentially with speed.
> 
> I also had all 4 windows rolled down, which contributes to even more air drag.


AHHH I see, thank you.

So I guess its time to look for a glider thats got low drag...and or, make some aero-mods which help to lower the drag sort of like that one fellow did on his honda cvic hatchback...


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

dimitri said:


> I am glad you are following my progress and ready to jump in to get me out of trouble, I appreciate that


Hi dimitri,

You're absolutely right. I really haven't been following this thread. I was very interested in the other thread by Tesseract and was not aware of your beta test of the controller until recently. I do notice that you are using a Warp nine. And from some of the battery current values you posted, hitting it pretty hard. I am in the process of the installation of this same motor with a Zilla HV1K. And being a motor head (electric), I am keen on such things as to how the motor is doing. So, in the spirit of the forum, I am ready to jump in. Please continue to share what you feel appropriate. If things go well on my end, maybe we can compare some numbers in a month or so.

Regards,

major


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

dimitri said:


> JRP3,
> 
> thinking back of my heater experience made me realize a simple solution. Assuming you already have a DC relay to energize the heater when the switch is pressed on a dashboard ( or however else you drive it ). You can open up the heater, remove power wires from the thermostat and connect them directly to the heater element, solder 2 new wires to the thermostat and route them back to the DC relay. This way thermostat only switches the relay and not the power directly. Thermostat will be in series with the switch to energize the relay and interrupt it when hot.
> 
> Hope this makes sense.


It does and it sounds like a nice solution. I have yet to do anything to the heater but I might implement what you've suggested instead of buying a DC thermostat.


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

dimitri said:


> I'm still baffled why simple bi-metal thermostat cares whether its AC or DC current  ,Funny thing about my experience with the heater is that it worked few times and then suddenly thermostat failed in closed position and heater element burned up within few seconds while violently boiling the water


Hi dimitri,

At the risk of being out of context again, I'll see if I can help. I think AC heater cores depend on reactance to limit current. When you use an AC core on DC, you just get the resistive component of the reactance, so it draws much more current than on AC. This increased current contributes to switch failure and is the reason why it boiled away the water quickly. Sound like a reasonable theory?

Regards,

major


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## blackpanther-st (Apr 4, 2009)

I am not sure about the ceramics, but most heater elements are purely resistive, so whether you feed it AC or DC doesn't matter, but Tesseract is absolutely correct about the switch. there is a big difference between switching AC and DC; what he mentioned about the zero crossing is just one factor. 

Another issue is metal transfer between the contacts; with AC the current is balanced in both directions so the metal tends to stay put, with DC however the metal transfers from one contact to the other during the breaking arc. because the transfer is generally not flat across the surface, one of two things eventually happens; either one contact disappears completely and the switch will not close, or the growing contact forms a metal spike which reaches the other contact and shorts the switch closed. 

The above is assuming that the switch originally had enough separation between the contacts to break the ark at all. if not the contacts will simply vaporize the first time you attempt to open them.

The principals here are the same as what makes an arc welder or plasma cutter work. 

DC switches require a larger span between open contacts to break the same voltage, and the should open very quickly to minimize the arcing. they also require larger contacts for the same current to withstand the heat and ware from the arcing that does occur; that is why DC ratings are generally half the AC rating for the same switch. 

On bimetallics; many of these thermal switches barely separate the contacts at all when open, and some don't even snap from one state to the other, but rather gradually move the contacts apart until continuity is broken. (these will not hold up to DC of any substantial current or voltage. 

My choice for the electric hot water heater thermostat was for more than its ability to be set for a temperature in the ideal range; these switches are rated for at least 20A, AC, and they do snap from one state to the other. also the AC rating is for 240V rather than 120V so the separation should be greater. the sound they make when switching seems to indicate this as well. That being said, While I can not guaranty this, not having tested it; I would expect at least some serviceability out of them at 10A and 120V DC.


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## a-class (Mar 5, 2009)

Really lovely conversion Dimitri...This question goes back a bit..... Are you finding your BMS is working well with your Zivan charger? In other words can you plug and forget?
Lester


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## dimitri (May 16, 2008)

a-class said:


> Really lovely conversion Dimitri...This question goes back a bit..... Are you finding your BMS is working well with your Zivan charger? In other words can you plug and forget?
> Lester


That's exactly what I have been doing on a daily basis for past 2 months  , plug and forget... the system is working perfectly, few times I turned the charger on during the day after full charge at night, just to observe the final balancing stage and make sure all shunts are working. Most shunts light up red LEDs within 2-3 minutes of each other, while charger is already at low current phase pushing only 1.5 Amps. Balancing phase takes about 20-30 minutes and then charger shuts off.

I just passed 1000 EV miles still running on beta controller, although it doesn't really feel like beta since its working perfectly for me. I will be getting hopefully final controller hardware upgrade in a few days, so I will post some updates here if Tesseract lets me speak  , I don't think there are any secrets left after all the graphs and videos posted in his controller thread 

We don't drive as much during summer break, kid's at home and weather is too damn hot, so I haven't been using the car as much as I'd like. I will be doing more test runs with updated controller, and I really want to test my freeway range, so I will be posting results here in a couple of weeks.

Thanks for your nice words


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## PatricioIN (Jun 13, 2008)

so... an update for us??? How are things going, range.. performance (particularly of the auto tranny set up, batts..) Anything we should know?


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## dimitri (May 16, 2008)

Well, I was hoping to post a massive update once I get my 1000 amp upgrade on the controller, but I am still waiting for those guys to polish the software. They offered me to upgrade hardware to 1000 amps and then do another upgrade to final software later, but I was too lazy to take the controller out of the car twice, so I declined and decided to wait a bit longer for one final hardware and software upgrade. 

According to controller thread updates I should be getting my controller updated pretty soon. Immediately after that I am planning to do some test runs, including highway range and performance test and local roads performance test, etc.

After final upgrade my lips will be unsealed, so as a first customer of Soliton1 on this forum I will let you know everything I think about it 

Other than that, the car is working great, got about 1500 EV miles. School in Florida started today, so I will be getting more mileage with school runs.

Batteries, BMS and charger all work perfectly, can't complain...

I absolutely love how automatic tranny turned out, shifts smoothly, shift points completely customizable to my desire via trimpot.

If I ever do more conversions I will only go for automatics... I do not have any sentiments towards stick shift.

Also, my wife drives this EV more than I do and she has a lead foot, but even with limited beta controller the car is handling pretty good, about the same as original ICE, and Protege's aren't known for their performance. So with double controller power this will probably be fastest Protege around


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## COS (Dec 23, 2008)

Where/who did you get the transmission adaptor plate from? I am lookig to do a Mazda3 conversion. Manual tranny of course.
Any help finding this would be greatly appreciated.

Thank
________
LIVE SEX


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## dimitri (May 16, 2008)

COS said:


> Where/who did you get the transmission adaptor plate from? I am lookig to do a Mazda3 conversion. Manual tranny of course.
> Any help finding this would be greatly appreciated.
> 
> Thank


I guess reading the whole thread was a burden for you  

The answer is in post 37 , I cut it out of half inch aluminum plate.


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## Qer (May 7, 2008)

dimitri said:


> Well, I was hoping to post a massive update once I get my 1000 amp upgrade on the controller, but I am still waiting for those guys to polish the software.


Tesseract got a release candidate just now, actually. If everything's well that'll be version 1.0 of the software.


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## SpeedAddict81 (Oct 28, 2009)

Any final results to share? Have you tried to find an actual top speed or is 80 it?

Great build and great read!


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## dimitri (May 16, 2008)

SpeedAddict81 said:


> Any final results to share? Have you tried to find an actual top speed or is 80 it?
> 
> Great build and great read!


Wow! This thread feels like ancient history now . Time goes fast in EV world.

I just passed 5000 EV miles, car is running great. We had a record cold spell here in Tampa, with temps below freezing all night long, so my battery performance was lower than I expected and I found couple of weak cells which get even weaker at cold temps, but everything is still working OK as long as I don't floor it in the morning. I have my new MiniBMS installed and its proven to be useful during cold days, LVC kicks in on weakest cell under heavy load and HVC stops the charger a little sooner than usual due to faster voltage rise on weak cell during cold temp. This helps prolong the life of the weak cells until I get them replaced.

As for top speed, I had it up to 90 mph a few times. This car could hardly get to 90mph even with ICE, so its not bad at all. I can keep up with freeway traffic easily and I pass people on local roads all the time, usually driving 50-60 mph around town, I live in somewhat rural area 

I could use a little more acceleration sometimes, but I had to pull back max battery current on Soliton1, since it can suck the life out of my battery, especially when my lead foot wife drives it 

If I was to do it again, I would use 200AH cells and get extra 5 cells or so, but back when I bought my cells they didn't have 200AH in small pkg they have now and I couldn't afford extra cells.

Hope this helps.


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## TheSGC (Nov 15, 2007)

What do you have your Soliton1 set to? Like battery AMPs, motor AMPs, battery volts, etc.


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## dimitri (May 16, 2008)

TheSGC said:


> What do you have your Soliton1 set to? Like battery AMPs, motor AMPs, battery volts, etc.


I only limited battery amps to 450Amps, and set appropriate low voltage level for my pack which is 108V. Everything else is default, so motor amps can go up to 1000Amps, but due to my relatively low voltage pack and battery limiting motor current doesn't usually get over 800 Amps during acceleration.

Most of the time I drive at 50-60 mph and draw about 150 Amps, which is under 1C for my pack. But heavy acceleration can easily pull 450Amps from the pack for as long as I keep it floored until I get to cruising speed.

Oh , I also recently put on new tires, those GoodYear Fuel Max which supposed to be like 5% more fuel efficient. I can't tell if my range is improved, but tires are really nice and quiet and handle real good. They get great reviews and I can certainly recommend them, they aren't very expensive either.


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## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

dimitri said:


> Most of the time I drive at 50-60 mph and draw about 150 Amps...


Speaking of... can you send me some logfile data at a constant 60mph? We are trying to build a database of actual power required rather than rely on the usual rules of thumb. Maybe start logger for just a brief period while on the interstate? Of course, for safety reasons you should only do this if you are also talking on a cellphone and eating fast food at the same time... 




dimitri said:


> Oh , I also recently put on new tires, those GoodYear Fuel Max which supposed to be like 5% more fuel efficient.


Dang! You could have easily determined if power consumption went down from the new tires IF you had good 60mph data BEFORE you changed them. Although, knowing you, you probably did.

Anyway, I'm very curious to hear how these tires perform in the rain - lots of long-life and LRR tires flat out suck when it's wet.


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## dimitri (May 16, 2008)

Tesseract said:


> Dang! You could have easily determined if power consumption went down from the new tires IF you had good 60mph data BEFORE you changed them. Although, knowing you, you probably did.
> 
> Anyway, I'm very curious to hear how these tires perform in the rain - lots of long-life and LRR tires flat out suck when it's wet.


To be honest, I am not that obsessed with performance data, I just enjoy driving EV as much as I can  . All I know is that I don't buy gas and haven't noticed much more $$$ on my electric bill, that's all the data I need 

My old tires came with the car and were practically bold, I was sliding all over the road during recent rains, so any new tires will be an improvement. I will let you know how they handle on wet road after it rains next time.

I will get you some 60 mph logs in a few days. Its hard to notice 5%-10% differences since its hard to hold steady throttle for any length of time and get meaningful data.


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## CroDriver (Jan 8, 2009)

Hi Dimitri.

Could you tell us a little more about the problems you're having with the TS cells? How did you noticed that some cells are worse than others?

Thanks.


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## dimitri (May 16, 2008)

CroDriver said:


> Hi Dimitri.
> 
> Could you tell us a little more about the problems you're having with the TS cells? How did you noticed that some cells are worse than others?
> 
> Thanks.


We had unusually cold winter in Florida this year so at first I noticed significantly deeper voltage sag on some cells. They would dip to 2.5V at 3C even at full charge. This was at around 60F ( 15C ) cell temperature.

Also, even at warmer days those cells would sag deeper than the rest at 3C, but at 1C-2C their differences aren't as obvious.

I rarely go over 30 miles a day and last year I had proven 60 miles range with my pack, but now those weak cells limit my range to about 40 miles.

Those cells are all from a different production batch and have lower capacity than others, 160AH vs most of my cells at 175AH ( all were sold as nominal 160AH, but most cells from a newer production date had higher factory tested capacity ).

When I planned my pack I foolishly believed TS claims of 3C continuous rates, so over the past year I often pulled 450-500 Amps from the pack, sometimes up to 30 seconds at a time, and few times during Soliton1 testing I pulled those amps for 1-2 minutes at a time. Since few of my cells were 160AH and the rest are 175AH, that means smaller cells were exposed to 3C rates, but others were less than 3C, about 2.7C.
I think this was the key why those smaller cells got weaker and lost some of their capacity and got higher IR now, while larger cells haven't gotten so bad.

All this tells me that TS cells should not be subjected to 3C rates despite what TS claims. I think 2C-2.5C acceleration and 1C or less cruising is the best these cells can do.

I am even more concerned about lifecycle of TS cells which are oftent used at high C rates, since published lifecycle data is for 0.5C and its most likely lower for higher C rates, but we don't know how much lower since there is not enough historical data to go by.

Based on all I learned from my past year I now limited my Soliton1 battery current to 400Amps, which limits my acceleration a little, but its still comparable with most cars on the road and I can still pass people, but not as easily as before . I also ordered a test sample of 4 200AH new HiPower cells, which claim much better performance than TS. I will parallel my weak cells in pairs so they can still work and will add HiPower cells in series to my pack to get total of 41 series cells with various capacities  Hopefully this will improve my peformance a little and prolong the pack life. It will also give me a chance to compare TS and HP cells side by side. I will publish the data once I have it.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

I thought Hipower claimed the same specs as TS?


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## dimitri (May 16, 2008)

JRP3 said:


> I thought Hipower claimed the same specs as TS?


Yes, their claims are very similar, but I already know that TS's claims are damn lies, so now I will see how truthful HP claims are. At least this time I did not spend 11K and I got 200AH cells, so I won't be running 3C anymore. When analysing results I will have to adjust C rates depending on which cells I am looking at, so we can get better "apples to apples" picture. I won't be able to get HP cells to 3C rate since that would kill my TS cells, but I will get close to 2.5C , so we should see how they compare to TS 2.5C rate.


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## dimitri (May 16, 2008)

10,000 miles update.

Funny, there isn't much to say after 10,000 electric miles. The car drives just like day one. I'll try to recall what I have done in the past few months:

- while initially playing with raw power of Soliton1 I slightly damaged 5 of my TS160 cells by subjecting them to 3C currents for 15-20 minutes straight, doing test runs. Perhaps these cells weren't perfect to begin with, they are all from an older batch, based on manufacturing date and serial numbers. This was prior to development of MiniBMS, which would have certainly saved these cells from damage, by preventing low voltage sags.

- instead of throwing these 5 cells out, I paralleled them in pairs and then added 4 CALB 180 cells to my pack. This gave me 1 extra cell, for a total of 41 cells, adding 3.2V to my pack voltage.

- since then I carefully set current limits on Soliton1 to give me plenty of acceleration, yet stay safely under 3C battery currents. Around the same time I also designed MiniBMS and its been working in my car ever since.

- I made 100Amp "bad boy" charger, which is basically a big ass full wave rectifier, dumping rectified AC mains straight into my battery. I use it on occasions when I need to make multiple trips in one day and need to quickly boost my battery. Otherwise I rely on my trusted Zivan NG3 for overnight charging. 

- I spent a few months trying to get my Paktrakr to stop glitching. Tried everything and then some, with marginal improvements. Finally gave up and trashed it. Instead I designed my own EV Display from scratch, knowing what essential data I need and what I can do without. It turned out better than I ever expected, I am now completely relying on it and it hasn't failed me yet.

All above changes were done earlier this year, in the past 3-4 months or so I have not changed a single thing in the car, which is remarkable, considering how much tweaking I was doing in prior months. I suppose every project has its final state, and I might have reached it with this car.

I drive this car every day and absolutely love it. I like how the tires chirp when I floor it from the stop line, leaving most gassers behind. Its also fun to pass slower traffic and let them see the electric logo on the back. Who says electrics are slow? 

I couldn't have done it without support of many folks on this forum, so thanks everyone who helped me out!


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## bblocher (Jul 30, 2008)

Glad to hear things are still running smooth for you as well.


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## PatricioIN (Jun 13, 2008)

That all sounds very good and also encouraging for those of us who are wanting to make the jump to lithium. Good work on the Protege man... looks great! Very glad to hear you've driven so many miles and all is still going well.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Glad to hear everything is working smoothly. I'm very happy with my EV Display as well.


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## wrsexton (Nov 19, 2010)

I suppose it's a poor comment coming 2 years after the start of this thread, but for what it's worth: Front wheel drive cars (and many new rear drive cars) are designed to take the entire drivetrain and front suspension out the bottom of the car on the subframe. You set it on a bench and work on everything in one place, not on your back. Raise the car on jackstands (a lift is better but few hobbyists have one) put a piece of plywood on a rented transmission jack, remove subframe bolts, and it's out. Just some advice from an experienced ICE guy. It's better to build adapters, mounts and such on your workbench or home made table with casters than in, under and around the engine bay.

Separately, what an awesome result and the start of a new cottage bms business! Do you run your power steering and a/c off the motor, or did I miss that? (I read the whole thread all in one sitting, so it's a little fuzzy to me).


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

That's how you're supposed to do it with my Fiero as well but instead of dealing with rusted subframe bolts and disconnnecting brake components I pulled mine out of the top. Not so easy to jack a car 3+ft in the air without a lift either. I also installed my motor and adapter plate by hand instead of using a hoist, so don't go by what I say


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## tomofreno (Mar 3, 2009)

Glad to hear things are going well Dimitri. I'm pretty much like you, enjoy driving the car, use it for almost all my driving, and it is unEVentful these days, just get in and go. Very reliable and routine now. I find almost no one notices the car is electric, despite the chrome "Electric" signs on both front fenders, back hatch, and 8 1/2" x 11" signs in back side windows that say "Electric" in large letters and give some stats on it. I guess you need something larger, like Dan has on his car.


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## jtgreeson (Aug 14, 2009)

Here's another thumbs up for your EVDisplay. It's working great after 700 miles so far.


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## dimitri (May 16, 2008)

Time for another short update. 

Just passed 100,000 mile mark on odometer, of which 15,000 are electric miles.

Few months ago I had to replace front left wheel bearings, which gave out and made lots of loud noise. I also replaced clicking right CV half shaft around same time. I guess its not unusual to do these things for a 8 year old car which had likely been abused by previous owner. None of these things are EV related.

I have zero EV related updates, everything just works. I rely entirely on EV Display's SOC gauge and my BMS for battery status, which has not failed me yet.

Soliton1 is running strong, recently upgraded to v1.4 firmware, which allows automatic water pump control, so it doesn't spin unless cooling is needed, so I wired my water pump via relay to take advantage of this new feature.

Car is used daily, but I usually drive short distances around town, so I don't accumulate huge mileage, hence don't update this blog often. Will update in another 5,000 miles or so.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Good to hear. I assume you are still running on all the original cells? I remember you seemed to have a mixed bunch with a large range of capacity.


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## dimitri (May 16, 2008)

All original cells are still in the car, but I paired some weak TS cells and compensated the voltage by adding 4 180AH CALBs. That was long time ago, I believe I documented it somewhere earlier in this thread. I haven't touched the battery in the past year or more, haven't even looked at it for months now.


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## dimitri (May 16, 2008)

26,000 miles update

Had some issues in past few weeks, which could have been avoided if I wasn't so lazy, or did not live by "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" rule 

First my throttle linkage broke off where its attached to the arm of the throttle pot. It was a poor job, which I meant to fix eventually, see above rule  , so it finally gave in....in the middle of a road... . I connected it back with some nylon thread and limped home, then fixed it properly.

Few days after that my Soliton1 released magic smoke, again in the middle of the road ( ironically, same spot where throttle broke, must be a cursed spot ), had to call a tow truck to get home. My Soliton1 was original Beta unit, first one to ever leave EVNetics into customer's hands. Since then Sebastien offered me to bring it back in to update its guts to real production version, but I declined, see above rule again  . Well, now its all up to date, with new magic smoke safely locked inside.

Since upgraded Soliton required setup of all parameters again, I decided to bump up max battery current a little, from 450A to 500A, just to get a little more zoom-zoom when needed. That must have been just the last drop in the bucket for IOTA DC/DC converter, which promptly released its own magic smoke on the next drive. Of course I knew for a long time that I needed to add an inductor to protect DC/DC from the ripple currents, afterall its been covered to death on this forum and I read all of it, but.....see the above rule again.

So now I got the inductor and new shiny DC converter from EV Source.

Car is back in business, EV Grin is back on


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## dimitri (May 16, 2008)

Oh, I forgot to mention. Few months back one of my original TS cells died. It was peculiar death, out of the blue it developed significant self discharge, like 5 AH per day or so, while still working OK. This prompted me to keep boosting it with a single cell charger to keep it top balanced with other cells. I got tired of doing that quickly and finally decided to take out this cell along with some other TS cells I had paired earlier and replace them all with CALB 180AH cells, at the same time adding a couple more for more voltage/capacity. Once done, I ended up with 46S pack, of which 30 cells are original TS 160AH and 16 CALB 180AH. Since my pack voltage increased I also had to swap my Zivan NG3 for Elcon 2500, which fit perfectly under the hood at the same spot, so it was minimum work.

When I removed the cell which developed self discharge, it was still in perfect geometric shape and had normal OCV voltage, but after a few days of sitting in the garage it ballooned and dropped to zero voltage, so I took it to the recycling yard. It must have been a factory defect which developed over time, since this cell was never abused any more than any other cells and worked fine for over 2 years and did not seem any different than any other cells until it died.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Good to see you're still rolling. Other than the ones you replaced how is the capacity holding up on the other original cells?


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## dimitri (May 16, 2008)

JRP3 said:


> Good to see you're still rolling. Other than the ones you replaced how is the capacity holding up on the other original cells?


After I added new CALB cells and rebalanced the pack, I drove it until first BMS alerts came in. I counted 150AH of useful capacity, limited by one cell, the first one to raise LVC alerts. I cannot tell how much this cell is lower compared to the next low cell, but I am OK with 150AH, so I will keep driving until this cell or some other cell becomes the weakest point, enough to trigger next cell swap project.


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