# Don't Expect Electric Cars From Mainsteam Automakers Anytime Soon



## Coley (Jul 26, 2007)

It is too bad that the writer left out the most important reason for the lack of big manufactureres bring pure EVs to market......

There would be NO INCOME, from them, for the dealer networks!!!!!!!


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## saab96 (Mar 19, 2008)

Translation: We build anemic NEVs and are scared sh*tless that the majors are going to wipe the floor with sexier freeway-capable EVs, so we have to flood the press with F.U.D. so that consumers will "settle" for our vehicles.


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## Coley (Jul 26, 2007)

That may be your translation, but not many other's......


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## xrotaryguy (Jul 26, 2007)

Does the author even live on the same planet as the rest of us? GM, Ford, Nissan, Toyota, Renault and many others are all bringing EVs to the market between 2009 and 2011. Is next year not considered soon? I'm confused


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## saab96 (Mar 19, 2008)

xrotaryguy said:


> Is next year not considered soon? I'm confused


You don't plan your future car purchases based on the statements of a company with serious case of conflict of interest.


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## engineer_Bill (Jun 24, 2008)

xrotaryguy said:


> Does the author even live on the same planet as the rest of us? GM, Ford, Nissan, Toyota, Renault and many others are all bringing EVs to the market between 2009 and 2011. Is next year not considered soon? I'm confused


I've heard that statement since 1972 I haven't seen an electric car at a local dealer yet. 36 years later I still can't buy a Ford electric car, or a GM either, or a Toyota. Even hybrids get ALL of their power from gas. And cost twice as much for just a few more miles per gallon. If you are tired of paying $4.00 a gal for gas, then I suggest you start building your own. I hope I'm wrong, but dont hold your breath.


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## Coley (Jul 26, 2007)

Look again...they are not bringing EVs, but they are planning on Hybrids.

There is not enough long term profit in pure EVs....


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## oldtimer (Jul 30, 2008)

Sorry, E bill but my 2008 Prius with pkg 6 cost $28,057. not twice as much as comparable cars but more like $1,000 to $2,000 more than comparable cars. ( ex. it has .1 cubic ft less cabin space than a Camry.). /On a 650 mile trip this weekend, we averaged 49.5 mpg with my wife "Leadfoot Lucy" driving at 75 mph and passing everything that came into her vision, or should I say sights? I can easily get 60 mpg driving in a sane manner, but, its her car. Still, at $3.58 a gal that is $47.01 for our trip, compared to our previous Jeep Grand cherokee, at 20mpg or $116.35 for same distance. or A savings of $69.34. That breaks down to recouping the difference in 29 trips! Although our Jeep was closer to $40,000 new.
BTW, the Jeep is For Sale, if you're interested!


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## engineer_Bill (Jun 24, 2008)

oldtimer said:


> Sorry, E bill but my 2008 Prius with pkg 6 cost $28,057. not twice as much as comparable cars but more like $1,000 to $2,000 more than comparable cars. ( ex. it has .1 cubic ft less cabin space than a Camry.). /On a 650 mile trip this weekend, we averaged 49.5 mpg with my wife "Leadfoot Lucy" driving at 75 mph and passing everything that came into her vision, or should I say sights? I can easily get 60 mpg driving in a sane manner, but, its her car. Still, at $3.58 a gal that is $47.01 for our trip, compared to our previous Jeep Grand cherokee, at 20mpg or $116.35 for same distance. or A savings of $69.34. That breaks down to recouping the difference in 29 trips! Although our Jeep was closer to $40,000 new.
> BTW, the Jeep is For Sale, if you're interested!


2009 Toyota camry $17,000.00, 2009 Toyota camry Hybrid $26,000.00, 2009 Toyota corolla $14,000.00. MPG corolla = 35, MPG camry = 31, MPG Hybrid (published from Toyota) = 39. Maybe not double, but $14,000/$28,000 for 4 more miles per gallon? or even 15 under certain conditions? I have heard of people manually charging pack then driving under extreme slow acceleration and coasting getting >100MPG, but still until the new serial hybrids come out, (when?/if?), all of those miles were driven by burning gas. Just as they have been since Henry Ford. When I can afford a hybrid I will buy one, until then I will convert my Hyundai (2009 = $10,000.00) to battery power. P.S. no thanks on the Jeep I have a truck that is sitting also.


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## saab96 (Mar 19, 2008)

engineer_Bill said:


> I've heard that statement since 1972 I haven't seen an electric car at a local dealer yet.


The battery options in 1972 were pretty limited.


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## oldtimer (Jul 30, 2008)

Not to disagree with you again, Ebill, but you're quoting stripped out prices, i was in car sales 20 yrs. I said COMPARABLE cars to a 2008 Prius with Pkg 6. And EPA mileage rating was 48city/45hwy not 39. I gave my real world figures on a recent long hwy trip (49.5mpg) with my wife's agressive leadfoot driving. I also hope to build an EV soon as I sell off some of my gas guzzlers, but I also am aware that they will only meet very narrow needs, happily my needs will work with an EV. I drive about 150 miles a month around town, so range is adequate using lead acid batteries which keeps things reasonably affordable. We will use our Prius for trips and my wife's 40 mile to work and back.


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## jlsawell (Apr 4, 2008)

100 years ago, there were 200 separate automakers in the USA alone.
Now there are over 200 small workshops working on EV conversions. The similarities are striking.

Daimler and Benz (generally credited with commercialising the ICE) didn't work for any of the large engineering or transport companies of the day, nor was there any government assistance (they were almost arrested once on suspicion of printing forged money).

IBM didn't produce the personal computer, Jobs' garage did.

The Wright bros...we all know the story.

The ICE has been obsolete for over 50 years and it's successor will emerge from the ashes in the same way it's parent did: "crackpots" tinkering in garages, while the world moves on oblivious until one day...we'll hit critical mass and the paradigm shifts in our favour.

I chuckle at "news" report like this.... as if you'd expect to see a headline "Tobacco companies fund cancer cure" or "Rayethon establishes hospital for Iraqi amputees"

But the sheep expect auto makers to go electric... <sigh>


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## engineer_Bill (Jun 24, 2008)

oldtimer said:


> Not to disagree with you again, Ebill, but you're quoting stripped out prices, i was in car sales 20 yrs. I said COMPARABLE cars to a 2008 Prius with Pkg 6. And EPA mileage rating was 48city/45hwy not 39. I gave my real world figures on a recent long hwy trip (49.5mpg) with my wife's agressive leadfoot driving. I also hope to build an EV soon as I sell off some of my gas guzzlers, but I also am aware that they will only meet very narrow needs, happily my needs will work with an EV. I drive about 150 miles a month around town, so range is adequate using lead acid batteries which keeps things reasonably affordable. We will use our Prius for trips and my wife's 40 mile to work and back.


Not to argue OLDTIMER, but maybe your years of car dealing have made you a better negotiator. I just have prices I have found in newspapers in my area, along with the advertised MPG. If you have a "stripped out" prius hybrid for sale at $10,000.00 - $14,000.00 P.M. me my wife needs a new car that gets better gas milage. I can get instructions to make it a "plugin" off of the internet. You sound like you really like your hybrid, I wish I had one.


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## TX_Dj (Jul 25, 2008)

saab96 said:


> The battery options in 1972 were pretty limited.


The battery options available in 1972 were very similar to the battery options converters have used since the 60's with the same success as we do today with very similar options.

There are new battery chemistries, and Lead Acid has also advanced since then, but overall, the PbH2SO4 batteries I'm putting in my truck will have little difference internally than the batteries that powered electric cars in the 1800's and early 1900's and even in 1972.

We just need to stop making excuses that the "technology isn't here yet"... It's been here since the late '50s. The 1850's.

My needs will almost entirely be fulfilled by the technology that's been here, and continuously refined, for almost 150 years. Lets stop using the excuses that the big 3 car makers have been feeding us.


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## The Flying Dutchman (Aug 15, 2008)

Of course not. yet.

Once the banks have cash again they gonna have a lot of stocks, shares, and all that stuff in The Big 3.

I think within 2~5years those stocks are gonna sky rocket.

Once the automakers have production under control, enough supplies and stuff, these auto's are selling like cranberry icecream's in mid-summer @ central park.

I got a bunch of GM stocks for $9,99.

I think it's a good deal for in the future, GM won't go bankrupt, i don't believe it.
They HAVE the technology to make the car's.

Only the cash ain't there yet, and probably supplie's isn't big enough.

If I have to believe the finance news, all auto makers are really investing big time in new plant's.

And I would really love to see Ford converting all those unsold pick-up trucks into EV's.
I mean, why not ?

Once these pick-up's are converted for like, 15 grand ? They can offer them for 40 grand or something like that ( i don't know what the current price is of a F150, but i suppose somewhere 25k )

I think Ford should do that, cause they ain't selling those trucks no more.

But like i said, Supplie is probably the main issue right now.
Money is never a problem for big company's.


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## The Flying Dutchman (Aug 15, 2008)

Coley said:


> Look again...they are not bringing EVs, but they are planning on Hybrids.
> 
> There is not enough long term profit in pure EVs....


It is.

A today's company is NEVER delivering 100% quality.
Never, not anymore.

This today are being to made to break down.

I think, the big stuggle is with the EV's, is where that ''weak spot'' is going to come.
But probably the battery's and motor, and HEY ! these to things are probably the most expensive parts of the verhicle. ?!?!?!

Easy profit.

And is it likely the big 3 companys are going to have ''all patents'' on those parts.
And if im correct, General Motors has about all patents on these kind of parts, together with General Electric.

GE yes, the BIG company at ''that time'', if you know what im saying.

Maybe it is a bit of far fetched, but I think, Why not ?
It would be the most logical thing to do for GE and GM.
Make the most profit out of oil, once the oil go's up, use electric.
It's all about the most profits, and probably a bit of history.

I think there is being pushed on a really big RESET button on the (stock) market's.
To start it all over again.
Only not this time with oil, but with electricity. 

But im probably wrong, but I hope hope not


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## saab96 (Mar 19, 2008)

TX_Dj said:


> The battery options available in 1972 were very similar to the battery options converters have used since the 60's with the same success as we do today with very similar options.


The DIY EVers are willing to put up with more maintenance and more frequent battery swaps than the general carbuyer would ever tolerate.



TX_Dj said:


> My needs


That's your needs. That's not representative of the carbuying public as a whole.


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## xrotaryguy (Jul 26, 2007)

Coley said:


> Look again...they are not bringing EVs, but they are planning on Hybrids.
> 
> There is not enough long term profit in pure EVs....


Heh, I am using some liberties with GM, but the name PHEV does have the word EV in it.  

Nissan an Renault are both planning pure EVs. They're working closely with Project Better Place to build cars that will work well with their charging infrastructure. Of all the main stream manufacturers, Nissan / Renault seem to be the most dedicated.



engineer bill said:


> I've heard that statement since 1972 I haven't seen an electric car at a local dealer yet. 36 years later I still can't buy a Ford electric car, or a GM either, or a Toyota. Even hybrids get ALL of their power from gas. And cost twice as much for just a few more miles per gallon. If you are tired of paying $4.00 a gal for gas, then I suggest you start building your own. I hope I'm wrong, but dont hold your breath. [\quote]
> You technically could have bought an electric car from Toyota a few years back.
> 
> I hope you're wrong too. I understand your pessimism, but I hope you're wrong.


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## The Flying Dutchman (Aug 15, 2008)

OPEC has also a lot of power.

If automakers are really investing in -oil free- vehicle's the OPEC is bringing the price down, and when the oil and gas is cheap again, no one needs these super expencive super gas-saving technology anymore.
And no one will buy it, and when no one buy's it, there is no profit.
Making big trucks with big gas-guzzeling engine's in it, is at that time the most profitable thing to do.
Simple math everybody understands.

It has happend before...

I think, or hope, this time it is going to be different.
People really did sufferd this time with the oil prices going up to almost D 150,-
200,- Dollar was possible many people said. 

People all over the world noticed this, this is BAD !
People really lose(d) al lot of money, only on gas....

So I think al lot of people now this cannot, may not, happen again, for there own, and others wallet.
Maybe something snapped in our heads, we gotta wake up, bring in new cheap technology (well, to drive atleast, not to develop  ) 

We gotta be oil free, period. At least our transport has to be.

Transport prices have got to be stable, reliable, and cheap.
Like energy, electricity is.

(big) transport company's want this, to be oil free, so they can make more profit with less costs, this will also help the consumers, things you buy in the supermarket will be cheaper, only due to the cheaper transport !

But my guess is, is when the big swift is there, and well integrated in our society's, all will start all over again.

Energy is gonna be a valuable thing, for everybody, and therefor is is going to be expencive, and more expencive, and more expencive...

The only way I see it for the (far) future, is everyone has got to be independable, self sustainting, getting your own energy.

Now whole country's want to have this, later on every individual want to be like this...

People have woken up, they all know it.

Hope society is gonna ACT and DEMAND NOW !

Just for a better society.
I alway though when I was a kid of like 8 years old, im gonna be right in the middle of a space age, all flying cars and stuff all around. Like in the movie's 

Hell, it should have been, if people only would have used there brain's in the 70's and 80's, and learned and act from the oil-crisises before... 

A well, maybe when im 80 in gonna see those flying cars and super space ships, telling my grand-son i dream't of those darned things when I was 8 years old. 
( and when im telling that, we are watching an 'ol vintage star wars movie on a VCR   )


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