# Do we have any Th!nk City owners?



## EVmattyP (May 12, 2019)

I just bought a 2011 Th!nk City. I'm waiting for it to be delivered from Indiana but I was hoping we may have some people here who are familiar with them.

Also, If anyone is aware of the possibility/difficulty with upgrading the onboard charger to a faster unit. From what I understand it's only capable of running at 240v 16A. Would be nice if I could at least double that. 

I plan to use this as my main daily beater and would love to be able to top it off faster.


----------



## Hollie Maea (Dec 9, 2009)

I have a Think City, though I don't drive it any more since I got an e-Golf. I did put 50K miles on it though. Never tried to do any upgrades to the charger or anything.


----------



## EVmattyP (May 12, 2019)

Hi Hollie, Did you have any problems or recurring issues with your Th!nk? I'm hoping they're relatively trouble-free as parts and service are non-existent for them! My plan is to enjoy the car for as long as I can and then if it dies on me I'll part it out and re-coup my investment!


----------



## Hollie Maea (Dec 9, 2009)

For the most part I didn't have any troubles. Here were the biggest issues I had:

1. Once I left the car plugged into the J1772 outlet while I left for a week. When I got back the 12V battery was dead. My suspicion is that there is a software bug in which when it's plugged into an EVSE there is significant 12V parasitics but the DCDC converter is never flagged to turn on. In my case, the battery was flat long enough that it was ruined and had to be replaced. Note: You do NOT want to have to replace your 12V battery. They designed it with a nice little access spot but then for the US version of the car they filled up that spot with AC. So the battery has to drop out the bottom which is a royal pain.

2. My windshield wipers went haywire. The fluid would get stuck on and it would whine and lurch. It worked fine in the low speed setting but in the high speed or intermittent setting it wouldn't work at all. Did some digging and found that there are two different fuses for the windshield wipers, and when one of them blows this happens. Sure enough I had a blown fuse. Still haven't replaced it, lol. Probably should before winter.

3. My sound system doesn't work properly anymore. Only get sound from one side and when it's hot it sounds terrible. Haven't investigated it yet.

4. This one didn't happen to me personally but it is something you HAVE to know about: There is a software bug that can easily blow your precharge board. It happens when the heater is turned on. If you turn off the car and then turn it on again within like ten seconds (for instance if you forgot you have to go somewhere else, or if it didn't turn on properly the first time) and the heater is on, you will blow your precharge resistor. It's difficult and/or expensive to replace. In the early days of the Think bankruptcy sale, many many owners blew their boards before they figured out what was going on. Fortunately back then someone had a bunch of extra boards. I don't think that's any longer the case, so just be really careful and when in doubt make sure the heater is off when you start the car.


Other than that it's been quite reliable for me.


----------



## EVmattyP (May 12, 2019)

That's great info! Quick question: I'm ordering a new head unit and door speakers for the car right now. Do you know what size speakers come in the car? I'm guessing it's the same as the 2011 Focus since they use almost identical door part/panels. 

I'm also guessing the brake rotors/calipers/wheels are going to be similar to focus pieces as well. Need to hit the ole catalogs to cross reference part numbers to see if I'm correct!


----------



## Hollie Maea (Dec 9, 2009)

Don't know for certain. I can measure in the morning.


----------



## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

EVmattyP said:


> I'm also guessing the brake rotors/calipers/wheels are going to be similar to focus pieces as well. Need to hit the ole catalogs to cross reference part numbers to see if I'm correct!


I really don't know much about the Th!nk City, but given the size of the vehicle I wouldn't be surprised if the running gear (wheels, hubs, bearings, brakes, etc) are from the Ford Fiesta, rather than the larger Focus. Just a guess to check out if Focus parts don't match...


----------



## EVmattyP (May 12, 2019)

brian_ said:


> I really don't know much about the Th!nk City, but given the size of the vehicle I wouldn't be surprised if the running gear (wheels, hubs, bearings, brakes, etc) are from the Ford Fiesta, rather than the larger Focus. Just a guess to check out if Focus parts don't match...


I think that's a very safe bet. I just remember seeing that steering wheel in the focus around 2005-2008. My plan is to start pulling basic parts off the car and cataloging part numbers so I can do an interchange on them to see what they're from. 

I'm really hoping to find some nice wheels for the car. I want something taller, yet thinner. The wheel gap is crazy big and I can't see why a car this size needs 6" wide wheels at all 4 corners. I'm thinking about a staggered set-up with maybe 5.5" in the fronts and 5" in the rear, something in the 17" diameter with lower profile tires. IDEALLY lighter in weight.


----------



## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

EVmattyP said:


> I'm really hoping to find some nice wheels for the car. I want something taller, yet thinner. The wheel gap is crazy big and I can't see why a car this size needs 6" wide wheels at all 4 corners. I'm thinking about a staggered set-up with maybe 5.5" in the fronts and 5" in the rear, something in the 17" diameter with lower profile tires. IDEALLY lighter in weight.


I get the idea of using narrow and low-profile tires on relatively large wheels for low rolling resistance, but you're talking about abnormally narrow tires for a modern vehicle. Something that fits a Smart ForTwo might be a possibility, but then you need a wheel of that size to fit the Ford hubs, which would not match any production Ford or any aftermarket product. Also, the lower profile tire on a larger wheel will not be lighter, for the same wheel material.

Smart ForTwo sizes include:
_Early_
145/65R15
175/65R15
_Current generation_
165/65R15
185/60R15
185/50R16 (even a 5.5" wheel is not really wide enough for this)
205/45R16 (requires more than 5.5" wheel width)

Tires for the later Smart are wider than you want. Given that the Smart ForTwo is the smallest thing on North American roads, this suggests that it will be difficult to find the desired tires.

Looking at tires for the Smart, and other sizes in the same models of tires, I noticed that there are some 155/60R15. If you can find a wheel to fit, that sounds like about your target.

The Smart would also seem like a logical source of wheels suitable for these oddball tire sizes. Unfortunately, an early Smart uses three-bolt wheels, and the latest (Renault-built) generation uses a 4x100mm bolt pattern... but Ford's four-bolt small car wheels (such as the Fiesta, at least of that era) are 4x4.25" (4x108mm).

Although the vehicle may be front-heavy, a tire size bias with larger front tires is probably not a good idea.

What is the stock tire size on the Th!nk? One online source says 165/65R14 (load index 79), which was a reasonable common and functional size for this size of vehicle (but is now rare). Overall diameter would be about 570 mm or 22.5"... about an inch smaller in overall diameter than those later Smart ForTwo sizes, and matching the 155/60R15.


----------



## EVmattyP (May 12, 2019)

The Th!nk actually came with 5.5" wide steel wheels from the factory and 6" wide aluminum ones (what mine has). Finding small tires is never real easy but it shouldn't be too difficult. 

Lower weight would be ideal but I realize that selection is going to be very limited. The hardest thing I'm coming across is trying to find a site where I can shop for wheels based on their specs and not the vehicle they came on. 

The Th!nk uses a 4x101.6mm bolt pattern, 24mm offset and 65mm center hole. If I find the right bolt pattern the offset is wrong. If I find the correct offset the center bore is wrong. 

I'm thinking it may be easier to buy new wheel hubs or use some sort of hub adapter to allow for a "universal fit". Then a whole world of wheel and tire options open up. 

Will also try to cross-reference the factory hub part number to see if it matches a Ka/Fiesta part that may offer factory options.


----------



## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

EVmattyP said:


> The Th!nk uses a 4x101.6mm bolt pattern, 24mm offset and 65mm center hole. If I find the right bolt pattern the offset is wrong. If I find the correct offset the center bore is wrong.
> 
> I'm thinking it may be easier to buy new wheel hubs or use some sort of hub adapter to allow for a "universal fit". Then a whole world of wheel and tire options open up.


Ah... 4-on-4"  Yes, there are lots of those, on older and smaller cars... but then you get into those other critical dimensions. The offset is also low by modern standards, especially for independent suspensions.

Adapters can fix many issues, and are especially workable when adapting a low-offset hub (like this) to higher-offset wheel (45 to 50 mm is much more common on modern cars). The difference is the adapter thickness. Adapters work best with the same number studs on each side (so adapt to 4x100mm or 4x4.5"), and with a larger centre bore on the wheel side. Unfortunately, they cost money and add weight.

If the centre bore is the only issue, and the possible wheel has a larger centre bore, then a centering ring is an easy fix.


Finding different hubs which would actually fit the bearings seems unlikely, but hubs can often be re-drilled to change the bolt pattern.


I still think finding a relatively narrow wheel in a diameter much more than 14" will be a challenge.


----------



## EVmattyP (May 12, 2019)

Hollie Maea said:


> Don't know for certain. I can measure in the morning.


I pulled the speaker cover off and to my surprise they were the smallest little speakers I've ever seen. The covers look like they'll accommodate 5.25" models but the speaker inside looked like it was only 2" and the sheet metal was cut in a way that it'll require modification (cutting) to fit anything other than component tweeters in there. 

Looks like it's going to an audio shop for some custom fit units instead.


----------



## rmay635703 (Oct 23, 2008)

The lowest rolling resistance tires available are Ponteza RE92’s in the 165/65r14 size.

Even if you find a tire that fits in a larger rim diameter you will loose range

No way around it.


You lug spacing is common to regular trailers and 1970’s economy cars

Also of note, if your going for range test fit a rim from a Honda HX/VX/Insight 
If you find there is enough play in the lug openings or if you have a good machine shop you can use most any modern 4 lug rim

Once validated 
buy a set of alloy rims from a Honda Insight , they are one of the lightest and most aerodynamic OEM rims available


----------



## EVmattyP (May 12, 2019)

Hollie, 

Car has been in the shop almost exclusively since it arrived here. There is a terrible roaring, clanging noise from the front right of the car. One shop (who refused to touch anything on it) said they thought it was the brakes being rusted and seized up. A second shop who WOULD touch it, says there's nothing wrong with the brakes and they suspect a clicking axle. Keep in mind the car has 3400 miles on it, both boots in tact, no sloppiness when moved by hand. 

To me it sounded like wheel bearings going out but the second shop swears it's not. There is no noise when freely spinning the wheels on the lift. 

The owner of "thinkparts4u" told me that he swears its the brakes as they are notorious of being super noisy and almost always the problem. so i ordered a set of EBC pads and rotors to see if that does the trick. I should know more Friday morning when I get the car back. If this doesn't fix it then I'm guessing I'll just have to buy an axle and go from there. 

Also, I removed the speaker cover and finally got to see the tiny pile of crap they consider a speaker. I'm also getting flaky sound out of only one side. I'm going to have to take it to a shop and just have them trim out the sheet metal to accommodate a larger pair of speakers. I'll have them also trace down the issue of sound only coming out of one side. Maybe it's a speaker issue, maybe it's a wiring issue. Either way...


----------



## EVmattyP (May 12, 2019)

rmay635703 said:


> Once validated
> buy a set of alloy rims from a Honda Insight , they are one of the lightest and most aerodynamic OEM rims available


You mean these? 

https://www.autorimshop.com/honda-insight-2003-14-oem-wheel-rim.html?utm_campaign=S%26O+%7C+Medium+Priority+%7C+Medium+Bids+%7C+Desktop&utm_medium=ppc&utm_term=&utm_source=adwords&hsa_mt=&hsa_net=adwords&hsa_acc=1616772338&hsa_cam=6526407345&hsa_ad=383970664050&hsa_grp=77125515343&hsa_ver=3&hsa_kw=&hsa_src=g&hsa_tgt=pla-800920217743&gclid=Cj0KCQjwivbsBRDsARIsADyISJ8G56d8jw1hgkxB6E1XkH3IZyHEm-MTMEyN_sAKb6-vWRGvy24CvngaAutoEALw_wcB

They are a 45mm offset and the stock wheels are 24mm offset. I'm not real sure if adding spacers would fix this or make it worse. If it fixes the offset issue how will that affect turning radius?


----------



## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

EVmattyP said:


> You mean these?
> 
> https://www.autorimshop.com/honda-insight-2003-14-oem-wheel-rim.html?utm_campaign=S%26O+%7C+Medium+Priority+%7C+Medium+Bids+%7C+Desktop&utm_medium=ppc&utm_term=&utm_source=adwords&hsa_mt=&hsa_net=adwords&hsa_acc=1616772338&hsa_cam=6526407345&hsa_ad=383970664050&hsa_grp=77125515343&hsa_ver=3&hsa_kw=&hsa_src=g&hsa_tgt=pla-800920217743&gclid=Cj0KCQjwivbsBRDsARIsADyISJ8G56d8jw1hgkxB6E1XkH3IZyHEm-MTMEyN_sAKb6-vWRGvy24CvngaAutoEALw_wcB
> 
> They are a 45mm offset and the stock wheels are 24mm offset. I'm not real sure if adding spacers would fix this or make it worse. If it fixes the offset issue how will that affect turning radius?


Positive offset means that the mounting face of the wheel is outboard of the wheel centre plane. That means that a 21 mm spacer between wheel and hub would make a 45 mm offset wheel sit where a 24 mm offset wheel would without the spacer. Of course, there are other factors in wheel fit... 

The bolt pattern of these Honda wheels is wrong (100 mm, but you apparently need 4 inches or 101.6 mm), and even if you tried a hack installation just using a spacer, the studs would need to be long (about 21 mm longer than for the stock wheels). A proper fit would require adapters.


----------



## EVmattyP (May 12, 2019)

So I just need to find an adapter plate, 21mm thick that will adapt the 4x4" bolt pattern I have to a more traditional 4x100 pattern. That should solve both problems.


----------



## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

EVmattyP said:


> So I just need to find an adapter plate, 21mm thick that will adapt the 4x4" bolt pattern I have to a more traditional 4x100 pattern. That should solve both problems.


Yes, although it might be tough. In a few minutes of searching I only found one adapter with that bolt pattern combination that was actually in stock (although my location limits choices). It was one inch (25 mm) thick, which is likely close enough.

By the way, 4x4" is more traditional (used by small cars in the 1970's and earlier, mostly rear wheel drive with low offset), while 4x100 has been far more common in recent decades (especially on small front wheel drive cars from Japan and Europe, with higher offset).


----------



## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

EVmattyP said:


> You mean these?
> 
> https://www.autorimshop.com/honda-insight-2003-14-oem-wheel-rim.html?utm_campaign=S%26O+%7C+Medium+Priority+%7C+Medium+Bids+%7C+Desktop&utm_medium=ppc&utm_term=&utm_source=adwords&hsa_mt=&hsa_net=adwords&hsa_acc=1616772338&hsa_cam=6526407345&hsa_ad=383970664050&hsa_grp=77125515343&hsa_ver=3&hsa_kw=&hsa_src=g&hsa_tgt=pla-800920217743&gclid=Cj0KCQjwivbsBRDsARIsADyISJ8G56d8jw1hgkxB6E1XkH3IZyHEm-MTMEyN_sAKb6-vWRGvy24CvngaAutoEALw_wcB


I just reviewed this discussion to see how we got here, and realized that the original goal was narrower but larger-diameter wheels and those Insight wheels are 14" diameter... isn't that the same as the originals?


----------



## EVmattyP (May 12, 2019)

You're correct. My initial plan was to find something sightly larger with lower sidewall height. Ideally I'd like a 16" wheel but a 15" x 5" or 5.5 would be fine as well. 

I have other, more pressing issues now. Serious clicking noises coming from either the axle, the differential or the motor. Driving me nuts. Sounds like metallic baseball cards in bike spokes.. already replaced the rotors, inspected the pads and calipers .. everything looks tight and solid. The car only has 3500 miles on it so I can't fathom what could've possibly gone this wrong, this quickly.


----------



## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

EVmattyP said:


> Car has been in the shop almost exclusively since it arrived here. There is a terrible roaring, clanging noise from the front right of the car. One shop (who refused to touch anything on it) said they thought it was the brakes being rusted and seized up. A second shop who WOULD touch it, says there's nothing wrong with the brakes and they suspect a clicking axle. Keep in mind the car has 3400 miles on it, both boots in tact, no sloppiness when moved by hand.
> 
> To me it sounded like wheel bearings going out but the second shop swears it's not. There is no noise when freely spinning the wheels on the lift.
> 
> The owner of "thinkparts4u" told me that he swears its the brakes as they are notorious of being super noisy and almost always the problem. so i ordered a set of EBC pads and rotors to see if that does the trick. I should know more Friday morning when I get the car back. If this doesn't fix it then I'm guessing I'll just have to buy an axle and go from there.


It's always easy to be the armchair diagnostician, but this seems ridiculous. It should be trivial to distinguish between problems with the brakes, CV joints, and bearings... given a chance to get hands on the car, especially with a hoist. Brake noise will change as the brakes are applied and they can't make noise unless they drag, CV joint noise will change with steering angle and driving versus coasting, bearing noise will change with load. "Roaring" and "clanging" are not clicking or scraping.

If you need new pads anyway, okay, but if they are noisy because of bad rotors and/or calipers which don't retract properly you're just going to wreck the new ones.

You could have the first CV joint to get noisy while still inside an intact rubber boot, but it doesn't seem like a good bet.

If I had to guess, I would agree with your bearing guess based on the noise, and because the second shop only checked with no load. But I could easily be completely wrong.


----------



## Hollie Maea (Dec 9, 2009)

EVmattyP said:


> I'm also getting flaky sound out of only one side.


That is exactly what happened to my Think after probably 20 or 30K miles. Also, the sound gets much more flaky when it's hot.


----------



## EV-propulsion.com (Jun 1, 2009)

Back a few years (around 2013) I did service work for a couple of local Think City owners. Support and parts were handled by a company in Michigan called ASG. They still have their website active at www.Asgren.com (they had almost every part for the city that was left in the world in their location in Michigan I believe)
Their website doesn't look like it would be for the Think, but the woman who is the owner and CEO is listed. I haven't had to speak with them in years, but in a pinch they may have parts they could sell to you guys. At the time they had millions of dollars in parts for the Think.


Mike
EV-propulsion.com


----------



## EVmattyP (May 12, 2019)

EV-propulsion.com said:


> Back a few years (around 2013) I did service work for a couple of local Think City owners. Support and parts were handled by a company in Michigan called ASG. They still have their website active at www.Asgren.com (they had almost every part for the city that was left in the world in their location in Michigan I believe)
> Their website doesn't look like it would be for the Think, but the woman who is the owner and CEO is listed. I haven't had to speak with them in years, but in a pinch they may have parts they could sell to you guys. At the time they had millions of dollars in parts for the Think.
> 
> 
> ...


Thanks Mike. I don't know if we're talking about the same person but I spoke with a guy named Tom and his wife who actually bought out the last of the supply chain a few years back. I went ahead and ordered a pair of new halfshafts from them yesterday. They may even have enough brand new body panels to sell me an entire color change! 

Hoping these CV axles getting swapped out fixes the problem. IT really does sound like a loud clicking and grinding noise. It changes with steering input. 

I ordered the new axles and some high quality synthetic gear oil for the differential which is supposed to help quiet noisy gears. Even though the car only has 3500 miles on it there has been 8-9 years of moisture that could've been building up in that differential. So hoping a good flush and quality fluid will also help.


----------



## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

EVmattyP said:


> IT really does sound like a loud clicking and grinding noise. It changes with steering input.


That does sound like CV joints, but it's quite different from this:


EVmattyP said:


> There is a terrible roaring, clanging noise from the front right of the car.


This is why mechanics want to test-drive the car: verbal descriptions of mechanical noises are difficult.


----------



## EVmattyP (May 12, 2019)

Yeah I know my description has changed....because the sound has. When I first drove the car (less than 2 miles at 25mph) it sounded like a bearing noise, almost a roaring/grinding noise that got faster with acceleration. It's always had a scrubbing component to it. The more I drive the car the more I noticed the clicking noise. Then I noticed that when I turn hard right the noise almost stops but gets much worse when I turn left or stay on center. 

After replacing the rotors and seeing the car on a lift I was able to really inspect all of the suspension and steering components to determine the overall condition of everything. It is surprisngly tight and clean underneath. The half shafts seemed to be tight without much play. The bearings made no noise when spun in neutral. 

My main concern is that either the differential is completely shot or there is something loose inside the case of the motor that's getting knocked about (but that wouldn't change with steering input). 

Really expecting the axles to solve this....since there is nothing else to really mess with.


----------



## EVmattyP (May 12, 2019)

SUCCESS!! It WAS the CV axles. The car is super quiet and smooth now. I've put almost 200 miles on it since saturday. Loving the drive now. 

I'm taking the car down to the stereo shop to get new door speakers and install my new headunit and then it's over to the body shop for some quotes to swap out all of the body panels and do so vinyl wrapping. 

Next on my agenda is removing the front and rear sway bars and seeing if I can have some new units made that are about 50% thicker to cut down on body roll. No way this car should be so top heavy! Going to measure out the distance from the battery module to the ground and see if it's possible to get some custom lowering springs made to get rid of the SUV ride-height. 

Long term goal is to either find a way to tune/adjust the controller for better throttle response or come up with a plan to completely gut the electrical system and start over with a hyper 9 instead.


----------



## Thegill (Jul 12, 2021)

Hollie Maea said:


> For the most part I didn't have any troubles. Here were the biggest issues I had:
> 
> 1. Once I left the car plugged into the J1772 outlet while I left for a week. When I got back the 12V battery was dead. My suspicion is that there is a software bug in which when it's plugged into an EVSE there is significant 12V parasitics but the DCDC converter is never flagged to turn on. In my case, the battery was flat long enough that it was ruined and had to be replaced. Note: You do NOT want to have to replace your 12V battery. They designed it with a nice little access spot but then for the US version of the car they filled up that spot with AC. So the battery has to drop out the bottom which is a royal pain.
> 
> ...


Hey, do happen to have a link to a diy or could you describe the 12v battery replacement procedure to me? I'm a fairly competent mechanic, but I don't want to screw anything up by just plain doing it wrong... Does anything else need to be removed? Loosen a motor mount? Disconnect procedure? I would really appreciate your help, I'll include my email here if anyone has input, thanks! [email protected]


----------



## Hollie Maea (Dec 9, 2009)

Thegill said:


> Hey, do happen to have a link to a diy or could you describe the 12v battery replacement procedure to me? I'm a fairly competent mechanic, but I don't want to screw anything up by just plain doing it wrong... Does anything else need to be removed? Loosen a motor mount? Disconnect procedure? I would really appreciate your help, I'll include my email here if anyone has input, thanks! [email protected]


I don't know of a place that describes it, but the general gist is, you have to drop it down right in front of the front wheel. It was designed to be lifted out very easily, but then they put AC equipment where it gets lifted.

You're not likely to do it wrong, it's basically just an issue of getting tools into tight spots where they were never intended to be. If you're a competent mechanic, you'll be fine (I'm not very competent and it took me all day).


----------

