# Sunvault enters production of Graphene Battery



## PhantomPholly (Aug 20, 2008)

Now entering production for cell phone batteries with twice the life of LiIon and recharges 100% in 3 minutes. Only question is how far they can cut manufacturing costs, this too could be 'The Game Changer.'

Watch these short videos, start with the bottom one and work up.

If the Ionic Engines discussed in the EV Airplane thread can be made to work, these would be "good enough" to make electric airliners.

They are also working on a sports car competitor to the Tesla, predicted to go from 0-60 in 2 seconds. Sweet!!!


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

Didnt say anything about nominal cell voltage.
Would need to know what top of charge voltage and bottom of charge voltage is.
He was tap charging it with 30v so is the cell self limiting ?


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## samwichse (Jan 28, 2012)

Says 1.9v nominal per cell here:

http://www.sunvaultenergy.com/web20/technology/

375wh/kg would make a Nissan Leaf battery weigh 64kg. 

In practice the density will probably be half that, but still... not too shabby.


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## Karter2 (Nov 17, 2011)

PhantomPholly said:


> They are also working on a sports car competitor to the Tesla, predicted to go from 0-60 in 2 seconds. Sweet!!!


I guess it's a good headline grabber, but......
Why do the car makers focus so much on rediculous acceleration figures ?
It's unsafe, uncomfortable, and hugely wasteful on energy !
I just which they would focus on making an EV that is affordable, practical, and with better range than any other to date.


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## PhantomPholly (Aug 20, 2008)

Karter2 said:


> I guess it's a good headline grabber, but......
> Why do the car makers focus so much on rediculous acceleration figures ?


Free news = more money. Oftentimes it's the difference between a good product succeeding or (at least temporarily) failing for lack of customers.



> It's unsafe, uncomfortable, and hugely wasteful on energy !


You are right. Where can I get one? 



> I just which they would focus on making an EV that is affordable, practical, and with better range than any other to date.


Patience. Just 2 years ago batteries were $400/Kwh, now there are articles saying GM prices are only around $145/Kwh. If they figure out how to mass produce graphene (which, ironically, could use coal as a source material...) we might see them at $50/Kwh within just a few more years.

I joined this site 4 years ago and predicted that within 5 years the game changing technology would have been developed in the lab. This one is already in production and may be that solution; if so, it was in the labs 2-3 years before my predicted date (which most thought far too optimistic). Technology is exponential, not linear....


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## electro wrks (Mar 5, 2012)

A grain of salt is needed here: http://seekingalpha.com/article/3245496-sunvault-energy-late-filings-arent-the-only-problems


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## PhantomPholly (Aug 20, 2008)

Hmmm, does sound suspicious. May be capitalizing on earlier speculation that graphene might have such properties. Or, maybe they got lucky...


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## PhantomPholly (Aug 20, 2008)

Did a bit more digging, and think I might understand all of the name changes.

I suspect that Sunvault is exclusively an IP (Intellectual Property) corporation. They keep acquiring things they hope will be a home run and, if it doesn't pan out, change their name to match whatever the "next thing" is that they purchase.

According to nasdaq.com It does appear legitimate that Apple has entered into partnership with them with respect to using their graphene battery:

http://www.nasdaq.com/press-release...e-battery-case-prototype-using-20151021-01408

So, I'll remain cautiously optimistic that their technology actually works as advertised and assume that the big questions are a) how good? and b) how much?


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## Karter2 (Nov 17, 2011)

It would not be the first time a big Corp like Apple has bought into a new tech company just as a " hedge" in case it pays off !


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## Hollie Maea (Dec 9, 2009)

PhantomPholly said:


> http://www.nasdaq.com/press-release...e-battery-case-prototype-using-20151021-01408


Hmm...5Ah battery that charges in 3 minutes. That's 100 Amps! Is this thing going to come with a 3 AWG cord?


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## PhantomPholly (Aug 20, 2008)

Karter2 said:


> It would not be the first time a big Corp like Apple has bought into a new tech company just as a " hedge" in case it pays off !


True, and they're not the only ones. Some biggies in military tech bought into EEStor back in the day. 

I hope they succeed, but I'm not buying any stock...


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## PhantomPholly (Aug 20, 2008)

Hollie Maea said:


> Hmm...5Ah battery that charges in 3 minutes. That's 100 Amps! Is this thing going to come with a 3 AWG cord?


Well, the obvious answer to "Where do you get the power to charge a 100Kwh battery in 3 minutes" is, "From an even bigger battery."

Their demo suggests they can pulse charge it at much higher voltages than "charged voltage." That will help some, but I agree that for EV sized batteries it will take one honkin' cord to pass that kind of energy...


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## Karter2 (Nov 17, 2011)

PhantomPholly said:


> .
> According to nasdaq.com It does appear legitimate that Apple has entered into partnership with them with respect to using their graphene battery:
> /U]?


Re-reading that link, 
It doesn't actually say Apple has any agreement with Sunvault.
..only that Sunvault is developing a back up pack to fit the IPhone !
....and many other smart phone makes also.


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

more useful graphene info, equally annoying British presenter.

https://www.youtube.com/embed/WFacA6OwCjA


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## PhantomPholly (Aug 20, 2008)

RIPPERTON said:


> more useful graphene info, equally annoying British presenter.
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/embed/WFacA6OwCjA


So it's not debunked yet, but it remains to be seen how much energy we can store per Kg.

I suspect they will need to create a process to layer a nano layer of superinsulator on top of a nano layer of graphene (and repeat ad infinitum) to achieve full potential.


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## Karter2 (Nov 17, 2011)

This guy R Murry Smith is apparently working with Sunvolt on Graphine projects.
His videos are interesting and amusing !
Many to watch, but here is an example
(Sorry if posted before somewhere )
http://youtu.be/8TkwoHgkuR0




...and the Graphine battery....
http://youtu.be/ynS2ZQqkQFk


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## jwiger (Oct 18, 2014)

PhantomPholly said:


> ...Technology is exponential, not linear....


Transistors are exponential, chemistry isn't quite that fast unfortunately.

On the plus side, the computers that can simulate,batteries are getting better, which does accelerate the chemistry a little.


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## PhantomPholly (Aug 20, 2008)

Karter2 said:


> This guy R Murry Smith is apparently working with Sunvolt on Graphine projects.
> His videos are interesting and amusing !
> Many to watch, but here is an example
> (Sorry if posted before somewhere )
> ...


Those are already a year old - here is his entire library of videos, some of which are from this year as they try to go into "experimental production" using a 1950's printing machine!

Hope one of you guys can help me convert farads to Kwh - they say they have 2,000 farads on a credit card sized device.

Anyway, making it 6-10x better than a supercapacitor is good but isn't where we need it to be as a battery. We shall see...


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## Hollie Maea (Dec 9, 2009)

PhantomPholly said:


> Hope one of you guys can help me convert farads to Kwh - they say they have 2,000 farads on a credit card sized device.


Much like Amphours, Farads alone don't tell you energy. We need also voltage, and then it is an easy conversion.


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## PhantomPholly (Aug 20, 2008)

Hollie Maea said:


> Much like Amphours, Farads alone don't tell you energy. We need also voltage, and then it is an easy conversion.


I believe he was showing 2.4v at peak charge; I saw as low as 1.7v late in the discharge cycle.


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## ndplume (May 31, 2010)

electro wrks said:


> A grain of salt is needed here: http://seekingalpha.com/article/3245496-sunvault-energy-late-filings-arent-the-only-problems


I noticed in the "Platinum" spec sheet, ESR = 0.23 ohms. That is VERY high. 
The Maxwell ultra capacitor @ 2000F ESR = 0.00035 ohms.
LiFeOn batteries < 0.001 ohm.

I hope its a typo and its really 0.23 milliOhms?


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## PhantomPholly (Aug 20, 2008)

Ya, we aren't really sure yet this could be another scam like EEStor.


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## ndplume (May 31, 2010)

PhantomPholly said:


> Hope one of you guys can help me convert farads to Kwh - they say they have 2,000 farads on a credit card sized device..


Here is a simple example on converting capacitor value to energy:
C=I * dT/dV OR 
I=C * dV/dT

As pointed out, we need some working voltages and a finite time span, 
so I'll use the following in keeping with the spec claims -

Cap value = 2000F as claimed for Business Card Cap (BCC)
Starting V = 1.9V (the 1.9V max)
Ending V = 0.9V (this is more drop than a Lithium, but that is an advantage of super caps)
This makes dV = 1.0V,
Ave V = 1.4V
Time : 10 seconds (dT)

Ave Current output = Cap Value * dV / dT
200 A = 2000F * 1V / 10s

and power output (Watt hrs) = Volts x Amps per hour 
W = 1.4V x 200A * 10s / 3600 sec per Hour (1.4V = Ave Volts)
W = 0.778 watts

----- Power vs Volume Comparison --------------------------------------------------------------
So lets try a comparison of BCC to a Calb 100.

BCC = .778W @ about 3.25 x 1.75 x 0.1", (the one he showed, this IS an estimate) = 0.57 cu in
100AH Calb = 300W @ 5.6 x 2.6 x 8.6" =125 cu in (300W = 100 x 3.0V x 1 hr) and (3.0V is average battery volts)

So 219 BCCs could fit in space of 1 Calb 100 (125/.57)
But, 219 BCCs would hold (219 x .622) 170 Watt Hrs, or ~ 57% of the Calb 100


(Subject to review  )


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## Karter2 (Nov 17, 2011)

Isnt the actual cap device just a film on that "BCC" ?
So most of the card volume (0.57cu") is just "packaging" for convienience of handling ??


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## ndplume (May 31, 2010)

Karter2 said:


> Isnt the actual cap device just a film on that "BCC" ?
> So most of the card volume (0.57cu") is just "packaging" for convienience of handling ??


I don't know, just took a guess at the size of the BCC device based on his description and where he held it up to a business card. 

I imagined the guts are somewhat like a Li battery in that there are a stack of sheets all tied in parallel and stuck in a case. In the event of a BCC, its just a credit card sized stack in some shrink wrap. For the CALB, its a poly case. The Calb probably has more packaging than the BCC.

I always thought that a supercap pack would be the best power tank. They are very efficient at supplying and receiving power, work at high/low temps, and the maxwell supercaps show a cycle life of > 1 million cycles. Unfortunately, they are more than 10x larger than lithium cells, so unless you were driving a bus or a pontoon boat, where could they all fit?


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## Karter2 (Nov 17, 2011)

In the "super safe Mega Farad Capacitor" video ..
http://youtu.be/6acygQLg-HM
He states the device has "only" 15 times the energy storage of a similar sized super cap.... A 10kF Graphine cap is about the size of a D cell and the 1.0MFarad unit about the size of a car battery. ..(10" cube ?)


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## ndplume (May 31, 2010)

Karter2 said:


> In the "super safe Mega Farad Capacitor" video ..
> http://youtu.be/6acygQLg-HM
> He states the device has "only" 15 times the energy storage of a similar sized super cap.... A 10kF Graphine cap is about the size of a D cell and the 1.0MFarad unit about the size of a car battery. ..(10" cube ?)


Thanks, I hadn't seen that video. In there he shows a 1" x 1" x ? Say 15 mils thick parallel plate cap. The data he shows indicates that it holds 9.1F. So if you scale that up to a Calb 100 (125 cu in = 8333 of his squares) then it works out to 81 Watt Hrs. No telling what the weight looks like, but they are moving in the right direction. If they can be charged/discharged as many times as the existing ultracaps, then you'd buy one and it would last your life time. You'd probably only get a new one as they got smaller, then the old ones could move to your solar array.

Think about the change from 1.45 to 0.56 volts. If that was an EV pack... That would be like going from 145V down to 56 Volts to get the energy out. The good news is that the 56V wouldn't hurt the caps (unlike a lithium pack). The bad news is that you'd need a boost converter to get the voltage up to a good working voltage for your motor. 
If you restrict the bottom voltage to avoid the boost converter, then you'd limit the amount of power that came out of the caps. Which means either a shorter range, or need for more caps. Its a balance. If they could get to a higher breakdown voltage, then the power capacity increases, although the voltage swing could too. Think of a pack that started at 240V and dropped down to 56V. 

I wish him success in his endeavor...


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## Karter2 (Nov 17, 2011)

Yes, basicly it still has all the same issues as a capacitor, just 15 times as dense.
..and you have to respect the Eco considerations they say they put into it.
I am still trying to find info on the "battery" version that he claims is being devloped 
I am begining to like that guy, he is entertaining for a researcher.!


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