# planning 1990 honda civic hatchback conversion



## rillip3 (Jun 19, 2009)

There's not too much mechanical skill needed if you can find people who know the right things to do, and from what I've seen of the folks here, that shouldn't be a problem.

Your curb weight is excelent, around 2300 lbs. Since performance isn't a big issue, I'd aim for a 72 or 96v system. 72 will be an around town, 40 mph deal, 96 will get you more like 60 on something this size I think. 50 miles is a bit of a tall order, you'll have to get as high an amp hour rating as you can, especially with a lower voltage system, as they tend to pull more amps. You're probably looking for something like an ADC 6.7" - ADC 8" motor. The 6.7 should really be enough, they have 13 HP ones, but the 8" will give you more oomph. You'll want a decently high Amp rated controller as well, agian, because of the increased amps due to decreased voltage.

In regards to the blog, I highly recommend Blogger. That's where I have mine, very easy to upload picture and embed videos and such from.


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## Nomad (May 8, 2009)

I'm not to sure about 96v but the math works out as a 18kW useable pak. 

Guesimate wh=200wh from EValbums

Useable kW from pack = #of Bats *v * AH * .8 (For Depth of Discharge

Cheap and Dirty Calulations for lead
16 T-125's @ 240 AH cost $2240 weighing 1000lbs
18432=16*6v*240AH*.8
*50% for PerksLoss=46Miles (best Case)
Cost=3360 (Using T-125 260AH)

Cheap and Dirty Calulations for LiFePo4
30 LiFePo4 @ 160 AH = $5250 weighing 375lbs
12kW/200wh/mi=60 Miles (Best Case)


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## i8bozo (Jun 24, 2009)

thanks for the early / quick responses. there is a lot to process and right at the offset, all these numbers and acroynyms are reading as greek to me. i'm sure in time it'll all come right. 

for now though, i'm just focused on getting the car in my possession and then quickly dealing with some minor rust issues. after that it is anyone's guess as to what happens next. 

i'll keep the updates coming and continue to ask for advice at each step of the way. i'm surely going to need it. 

regards. should be an interesting journey.


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## TheSGC (Nov 15, 2007)

I just finished a 1996 Civic LX, so you should take a look at my blog in my sig for a decent start. 

Post some pictures when you the car!


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## dtbaker (Jan 5, 2008)

i8bozo said:


> thanks for the early / quick responses. there is a lot to process and right at the offset, all these numbers and acroynyms are reading as greek to me. i'm sure in time it'll all come right.


 sounds like you would be very happy with the 'small car standard' which usually ends up being based on a 8" DC (like ADC or Warp), and 96v or 120v worth of deep cycle flooded lead batteries like US battery us8vgchcx, or trojan t-890. 96v will get you fair acceleration and a 40-ish mile max range, adding 3 more for 120v will get you better accel, and longer range. For off-the-shelf standards, consider the Curtis 1221c controller and Zivan charger. Not tunable, but proven reliable. There are several good ev suppliers out there, but I had great luck with kta-ev.com


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## i8bozo (Jun 24, 2009)

hi again,

while reading another EV honda blog, it dawned on me that i would need a parts list. a generic parts list, not a specific list... yet. just something to use as a kind of framework to start hanging things off of.

remember, i'm a total noob here.

an example with a few items would be as such:

controller
motor
batteries
throttle control
heater
etc...

is there anywhere here in these forums where a generic parts list can be found? it would be gratefully appreciated. 

many thanks!


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## dtbaker (Jan 5, 2008)

i8bozo said:


> is there anywhere here in these forums where a generic parts list can be found? it would be gratefully appreciated.
> 
> !


this will be a good start
http://envirokarma.org/ev/01.Design.shtml

and follow the link to view the list itself at
http://envirokarma.org/ev/080307_eparts_big.jpg


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## i8bozo (Jun 24, 2009)

TheSGC said:


> I just finished a 1996 Civic LX, so you should take a look at my blog in my sig for a decent start.
> 
> Post some pictures when you the car!


here ya go: 
take ownership this weekend.


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## i8bozo (Jun 24, 2009)

thanks dan. much appreciated. printing now.


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## PatricioIN (Jun 13, 2008)

That is a GREAT looking donor! Can't believe you snatched it away from the Tuner crowd.. kudos! I would think as many 6volts as you can place in that car will get you what you want. A car that light could get to 60mph on 96volts.. but would take a while to get there. Look at US/Interstate as well as Trojan. I believe you'll find a better price in the US batts. Don't know if lithium batts are in your price range, but you could end up with an amazing EV if you went that route (longer range, lighter pack)

If you're looking for average acceleration, then a small (1221) Curtis will do you just fine. I wouldn't do less than an 8" motor personally. Check out similar sized cars on www.evalbum.com or the garage section here. Mine started at 2500lbs - ended up at 3200lbs, has a 1221, a 8" motor, 120v worth of Interstate 8volts... I have average acceleration, at least 70mph capability and can get ~40 miles in warm weather.

Don't forget to consider temperature in your build!! If you live where it gets cold (which I presume from that extra marker light on the fender!) then you'll want to insulate and maybe heat your batteries to maintain decent range in cold weather.

Good luck - the car looks great.


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## PatricioIN (Jun 13, 2008)

oh.. take a video of the engine running and be careful to take it out and I bet you can get big bucks for a good low mileage Honda engine on Craigslist!!


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## i8bozo (Jun 24, 2009)

thanks for that feedback. i don't think i want to go lithium but appreciate the info. 

i live in New Zealand - where gav - kiwiev.com is from. he'll be hearing from me at some point. =) it does get kinda chilly here from time to time so insulation might not be a bad idea. i think that marker light is an indicator...didn't know it was unusual. 

so much to consider and to absorb. 

so this 8" motor...how is that measured? 8" of what? and what other sizes do they come in? what is the primary difference between and 8" and one of the other sizes?

again, thanks!


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## rillip3 (Jun 19, 2009)

i8bozo said:


> so this 8" motor...how is that measured? 8" of what? and what other sizes do they come in? what is the primary difference between and 8" and one of the other sizes?
> 
> again, thanks!


8" is the diameter of the motor. 8" is more powerful than say a 6.7". Typical sizes for an EV range from 5.5" (very small, limited speed) to 11" (big daddy). 8" Is a solid, upper-middle motor.

Edit: I said circumfrance, I meant diameter.


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## i8bozo (Jun 24, 2009)

PatricioIN said:


> oh.. take a video of the engine running and be careful to take it out and I bet you can get big bucks for a good low mileage Honda engine on Craigslist!!


i'll see about offloading the engine to someone locally via our online auction site: trademe.co.nz 

your sequence of images on your site is WAY impressive. you have madd skillz. i plan to video document the whole process. should be an interesting voyage...


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## PatricioIN (Jun 13, 2008)

thanks! Yes, I got the idea to document the whole thing after looking at Gav's series. I think the more fully documented conversions there are online, the more comfortable the "average" person will be tackling a conversion.


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## dtbaker (Jan 5, 2008)

PatricioIN said:


> ...the more fully documented conversions there are online, the more comfortable the "average" person will be tackling a conversion.


I wish I had video skills... but tried to do a step-by-step with still pictures and 'chapter' summaries for my Suzuki Swift. It would have taken a lot of the 'ponder' time out if I had known how many batteries would fit, how to layout component box, where to fit the vaccuum pump, etc., etc. 

Anyway, some of the generic concepts translate to other makes/models of donors, but some of the key info is model specific for sure.... I hope anyone converting a Suzuki Swift, Geo Metro, Pontiac Firefly finds my site and that it helps'em figure out where to put stuff.

On the topic of generic tips, the biggest one I can think of that wasn't very well documented is working with 1/4" polypropylene sheet for lining battery boxes, and making component boxes/mounting plates. Once I got a little practice I found it super easy to work with, the heat-welding was kinda fun, and it is a great way to fabricate custom enclosures for delicate parts that need to be clean and dry...


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## i8bozo (Jun 24, 2009)

dtbaker said:


> I wish I had video skills... but tried to do a step-by-step with still pictures and 'chapter' summaries for my Suzuki Swift. It would have taken a lot of the 'ponder' time out if I had known how many batteries would fit, how to layout component box, where to fit the vaccuum pump, etc., etc.


i totally agree and i DO have video skills and the where with all to do this. i will begin to layout the blog now that i'm back from picking up the car. all went well and the car performed like a little champion on its 10 hr drive back to wellington from auckland. next step for me in this venture is to take it to a panel beater and have some rust taken care of. probably get the whole car primed grey too while i'm at it. 

while that is happening i'll fill the time doing some more reading and research. 

i think i'm going to go the DC route purely for the cost savings benefits.

a link to the blog coming soon! stay tuned.


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## rillip3 (Jun 19, 2009)

i8bozo said:


> i totally agree and i DO have video skills and the where with all to do this. i will begin to layout the blog now that i'm back from picking up the car. all went well and the car performed like a little champion on its 10 hr drive back to wellington from auckland. next step for me in this venture is to take it to a panel beater and have some rust taken care of. probably get the whole car primed grey too while i'm at it.
> 
> while that is happening i'll fill the time doing some more reading and research.
> 
> ...


DC is a solid choice. I think everyone could pretty much agree DC is the best for a first time converter unless you already have a lot of experience with electrics. There aren't as many "plug and play" compatible parts for AC motors out there, and the price tag makes it a big risk for a first time converter. Most people doing conversions right now seem to be going DC. AC seems like the "next big thing" for performance, but it's not ready for cutting your teeth on yet, from what I've seen.


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## i8bozo (Jun 24, 2009)

uh oh... does this honda civic need to be a manual transmission? is it possible to do this EV conversion with an automatic transmission? curious as that is what i purchased. yikes! =)

would love to know asap if any others have crossed this bridge and if it is possible. if not, i still have time to offload this car back into the market and continue my hunt for a different donor vehicle. thanks guys!


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## rillip3 (Jun 19, 2009)

i8bozo said:


> uh oh... does this honda civic need to be a manual transmission? is it possible to do this EV conversion with an automatic transmission? curious as that is what i purchased. yikes! =)
> 
> would love to know asap if any others have crossed this bridge and if it is possible. if not, i still have time to offload this car back into the market and continue my hunt for a different donor vehicle. thanks guys!


I know there's one fellow here with an automatic. It can be made to work, so you don't have to abbandon all hope. From whar he indicated, it wasn't even that scary. There are three main issus with automatics:

1) inherrent inefficiency. I couldn't tell you the mechanics of why, but this is obvious even on gas cars. The fuel efficiency for an automatic is 2-5 mpg less than that of a manual. There's just something wastful about the mechanism itself. This is surmountable, but will eat into your range a bit

2) This one is more important: gearing. The automatic is geared to keep your RPMs around 1.5-2k. An electric motor is much happier and more efficient going around 3-4k. The guy who has an automatic has a trick for changing this, but I do not know what it is.

3) Less important but possibly more annoying, the automatic gear box is a preasurized system that must be run continually. Because an electric motor does not idle, and it takes some time to prime the system from a stop, the concern is that you may have to wait any time the car comes to a stop if you just belt-drive this. Again, surmountable, but will chip at your efficiency to run a motor to keep this primed. I'm not sure what the lag time is supposed to be either, perhaps it's less of an issue.

I have unfortunately forgotten who has the automatic.  Hopefully they'll see this and speak up, or you might have to do a search/make a separate post.

Edit: you can also replace the automatic with a standard. I don't know what mechanical work is involved or how much it would cost, but since they make a manual model, it should be relatively easy. That is, easy in the scope of "all you have to do is remove x, y, z, a, b, c, f, and h, then install y, k, h, q, then flip this dongle on the ecc relay, then readd all but x, y, z." Not easy at all, possibly, but not requiring a degree in engineering and/or McGuyver to get it working.


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## mcudogs (Apr 29, 2009)

It will certainly be harder to do the auto conversion compared to a manual gearbox. I am just starting my 1st conversion and it's a DC motor, auto gearbox conversion. I have talked to a few auto transmission specialists and they advised that you can remove the torque converter and replace it with a custom adapter. 

There is an issue when the motor is stopped (traffic lights etc) the transmission pump is not running and therefore the clutch that engages first gear can not operate. If you accelerate in this mode the car will not move until the pressure builds up and then the car wii take off with a clunk. To overcome this I am going to connect an electric power steering pump to the high pressure port of the transmission and operate it via a pressure sensor to make sure that the clutches remain operated.

http://mazda121auto-ev.blogspot.com/


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## dtbaker (Jan 5, 2008)

i8bozo said:


> uh oh... does this honda civic need to be a manual transmission? is it possible to do this EV conversion with an automatic transmission?


auto trans are 'possible', and there are a couple in the garage... but it is more complex for sure as you have to deal with a pump and figuring out electronics for shift points.


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## TheSGC (Nov 15, 2007)

I did an Automatic Civic! Read my blog, but it really wasn't a big deal. Honda's are really forgiving in their sensor requirements, and the way to change the shift points it dirt easy. All you have to do is replace your TPS sensor with a 5k ohm Potentiometer and build it into the cabin so you can change shift points when needed.

The transmission pump was no big deal, just be easy on the pedal until the clutches engage, then have at it. If I do stomp on it, it will clunk when engaging, but with some practice its real easy to start off smooth.


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## i8bozo (Jun 24, 2009)

TheSGC said:


> I did an Automatic Civic! Read my blog, but it really wasn't a big deal. Honda's are really forgiving in their sensor requirements, and the way to change the shift points it dirt easy. All you have to do is replace your TPS sensor with a 5k ohm Potentiometer and build it into the cabin so you can change shift points when needed.
> 
> The transmission pump was no big deal, just be easy on the pedal until the clutches engage, then have at it. If I do stomp on it, it will clunk when engaging, but with some practice its real easy to start off smooth.


the damage is done. i just re-listed it for sale prior to reading these latest posts. fear not though...i've got my eye on an identical manual transmission honda...so this adventure will continue in fine fashion. 

at worst, it makes for a good story. =) kinda funny actually. it goes right in line with everything else i've ever done in my life so i'm not surprised. 

stay tuned as the excitement continues. thanks all!


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