# [EVDL] Range ??



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> On 7 Feb 2010 at 9:39, [email protected] wrote:
> 
> > The batteries will also weigh a lot less, 676 pounds vs 897 pounds ..
> > Is there a way to estimate what my range will be using the new pack?
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> [email protected] wrote:
> > After much soul searching I have come to the realization that I still
> > cannot afford a nice Lithium Ion battery pack for the eLectric DeLorean. Based
> 
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Hi Dave,

Is there a reason you want to go to double voltage?
The move will likely cost you a new controller and
possibly a DC/DC converter in addition to the pack,
unless you already have a setup allowing both high
and low voltage.

Why not change the Deka's for a new 156V 100 Ah pack?
I had pretty good service from relatively cheap
AGMs made in China (as most lead-acids) under US management
by UPG (Universal Power Group).
I have also heard of another EVer that had two of his
(smaller, 34Ah) batteries go open circuit, but I never
experienced that problem on my 110A or on the half a
dozen other EVs that decided to use these batteries.
Prices of lead have risen since I bought my pack
but I believe that UB121100 are still affordable
compared with other AGM offerings.
Weight was also some 69 or 71 lbs so you would see
no difference compared to the Deka's.

Regards,

Cor van de Water
Director HW & Systems Architecture Group
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
Email: [email protected] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [email protected]
Tel: +1 408 383 7626 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Tel: +91 (040)23117400 x203 XoIP: +31877841130

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On
Behalf Of [email protected]
Sent: Sunday, February 07, 2010 8:10 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: [EVDL] Range ??

After much soul searching I have come to the realization that I still 
cannot afford a nice Lithium Ion battery pack for the eLectric DeLorean.
Based 
on this I think I will go with the
recommendations of this list and use buddy pairs of the PC680 / XE16
lead acid battery.

My original pack of thirteen Deka 9A31s (12v 100AH 69pounds) took me
30-40 miles on a charge, in its prime. According to Deka the Peukert
value of the 9A31 is 1.22 (EVConvert says 1.145)

I do not know what the Peukert value of the PC680/XE16 (12v 16AH
14pounds) is, but if I use 24 buddy pairs in series the WH will be 12 x
16 x 2 x 24 = 9,216. The old pack had 12 x 100 x 13 = 15,600 WH.

I believe that since my battery voltage will be almost double what it
was, then the average battery current should be almost half. If the
Peurkert value is about the same, how will that affect my range? The
batteries will also weigh a lot less, 676 pounds vs 897 pounds.


Is there a way to estimate what my range will be using the new pack?

Thank you,

Dave Delman
1981 Electric DeLorean Project
electricdelorean.com
http://evalbum.com/1482
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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Why is lithium out of your price range? According to a quick Google search,
the PC60 is about $115, and your setup that would come out to be about $5500
(48 batteries) and a similar lithium pack that would have loads more range,
would be about $5800 from EV Components (48 100Ah TS Cells). 

I have been looking into Odyssey batteries from my Civic, but it's the same
cost as going lithium, only lithium has 4-5x the life and twice the range
for the same price.

David Harrington

Electric Civic Conversion
http://civicity.blogspot.com

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf
Of [email protected]
Sent: Sunday, February 07, 2010 9:40 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: [EVDL] Range ??

After much soul searching I have come to the realization that I still 
cannot afford a nice Lithium Ion battery pack for the eLectric DeLorean.
Based 
on this I think I will go with the 
recommendations of this list and use buddy pairs of the PC680 / XE16 lead 
acid battery.

My original pack of thirteen Deka 9A31s (12v 100AH 69pounds) took me 30-40 
miles on a charge, in its prime. According to Deka the Peukert value of 
the 9A31 is 1.22 (EVConvert says 1.145)

I do not know what the Peukert value of the PC680/XE16 (12v 16AH 14pounds) 
is, but if I use 24 buddy pairs in series the WH will be 12 x 16 x 2 x 24 = 
9,216. The old pack had 12 x 100 x 13 = 15,600 WH.

I believe that since my battery voltage will be almost double what it was, 
then the average battery current should be almost half. If the Peurkert 
value is about the same, how will that affect my range? The batteries will

also weigh a lot less, 676 pounds vs 897 pounds.


Is there a way to estimate what my range will be using the new pack?

Thank you,

Dave Delman
1981 Electric DeLorean Project
electricdelorean.com
http://evalbum.com/1482
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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

>You can approximate the Peukert exponent of the Odyssey battery using Uve
Rick's battery calculator. It used to be on Geocities but when they shut
down >I salvaged it, so you can now find it (slightly prettied up) at 

>http://evdl.org/uve/battery.html 

The Battery Prices listed on that site are way out of date in case anyone is
comparing....


Sincerely;

Douglas A. Stansfield
President
www.TransAtlanticElectricConversions.com 
973-875-6276 (office)
973-670-9208 (cell)
973-440-1619 (fax)

WHOLESALE ELECTRICITY PROVIDERS
And ELECTRIC CAR PRODUCERS




-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf
Of EVDL Administrator
Sent: Sunday, February 07, 2010 11:16 AM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Range ??



> On 7 Feb 2010 at 9:39, [email protected] wrote:
> 
> > The batteries will also weigh a lot less, 676 pounds vs 897 pounds ..
> > Is there a way to estimate what my range will be using the new pack?
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> On 7 Feb 2010 at 18:11, Douglas A. Stansfield wrote:
> 
> > The Battery Prices listed on that site are way out of date in case anyone is
> > comparing....
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Dave, Was that Soul Searching, or Wallet/Bank Book Searching (Looking for 
extra Benjamin's)?

And - while your searching your soul - please have a look at my notes - 
posted on my site at www.myelectricfly.com/whitepaper.php regarding 
lead-acid vs. ThunderSky LFP as purchased from www.evcomponents.com.

I think you might find out that - with even this basic two page comparison 
of some simple issues - the Lead Acid Batteries will cost you more than you 
realized - what with short life - excessive abuse, and out of spec 
applications (They were never created for the loads we put them through, for 
the durations that they are loaded, with as deep a discharge as we want. 
maybe deep cycle - but at the C/20 Rating - not as much at the C/2 or C 
Ratings or higher).

Also - the batteries in all serious conversions should be chosen - as I see 
it - to at least be able to handle the steady state load of the motor at 
it's nominal specs, and ideally - be able to safely handle pulses at twice 
the motors nominal specs of 15 - 30 Seconds (longer - if you have a lot of 
hills in your home zone).

My electricfly - for instance - is motor rated at 20.9 HP at 90V X 184 Amps, 
so - a set of 30 - 32 TS-LFP90AHA Cells (At $99 each) which are rated for 3C 
Nominal Continuous, would be operating at about 2C - within their limits, 
and with some reserve for hills, but still give me about 4 - 6 times the 
life of the usual Lead Acid Batteries, plus - extend the range beyond the 
lead acid - by a factor of 2-3 within reason.

My highway drive with the Trojans currently - when new - took the pack 
voltage down all the way from a fully charged 105 Volts to 75 Volts at 185 
Amps at 60 Mph / 100 Kmh, meaning about 14 kW used from the 16 kW or so the 
nominal specs suggest. It shows I need about 140 Wh per Km for basic 
calculations of range. However - the safe lower limit - with perfectly 
balanced Batteries - was really 84 volts - or 8 X 10.5V, so I was strangling 
them in ignorance at the time. As they say - and EV Batter pack does not 
die - it is most often Murdered!

Robert Weekley
[email protected]
http://groups.google.com/group/electricfly1
=============================

----- Original Message ----- 
From: <[email protected]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Sunday, February 07, 2010 9:39 AM
Subject: [EVDL] Range ??


> After much soul searching I have come to the realization that I still
> cannot afford a nice Lithium Ion battery pack for the eLectric DeLorean. 
> Based
> on this I think I will go with the
> recommendations of this list and use buddy pairs of the PC680 / XE16 lead
> acid battery.
>
> My original pack of thirteen Deka 9A31s (12v 100AH 69pounds) took me 30-40
> miles on a charge, in its prime. According to Deka the Peukert value of
> the 9A31 is 1.22 (EVConvert says 1.145)
>
> I do not know what the Peukert value of the PC680/XE16 (12v 16AH 14pounds)
> is, but if I use 24 buddy pairs in series the WH will be 12 x 16 x 2 x 24 
> =
> 9,216. The old pack had 12 x 100 x 13 = 15,600 WH.
>
> I believe that since my battery voltage will be almost double what it was,
> then the average battery current should be almost half. If the Peurkert
> value is about the same, how will that affect my range? The batteries 
> will
> also weigh a lot less, 676 pounds vs 897 pounds.
>
>
> Is there a way to estimate what my range will be using the new pack?
>
> Thank you,
>
> Dave Delman
> 1981 Electric DeLorean Project
> electricdelorean.com
> http://evalbum.com/1482
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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

I can't answer your question on range, but are you going for range or 
performance? If I recall you were a bit dissatisfied on both ends. 
Based on your choices of upgrading to a Z2K and these batteries, it 
looks like you are going for performance. You can't really get both 
without spending lots of money.



> [email protected] wrote:
> 
> > After much soul searching I have come to the realization that I still
> > cannot afford a nice Lithium Ion battery pack for the eLectric
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Willie, I think Lithium is not an option because I want to be able to pull 
1500 battery amps minimum. Thunderskys have only a 3C rating. I 
understand that their 10C "burst" is measured in milliseconds. A123 and other Li 
can do it but they all have a very expensive initial cost.

Cor van de Water, My decision to go up in voltage is so that I can maintain 
the motor amps at higher RPMs. I already have the Z2K-HV controller. 
You are correct, I will have to do something about my Iota-55 DC/DC. I don't 
think the UB121100 can supply the current I need. I was thinking of 
replacing my 9A31s with PC2150s. They certainly could supply the current but 
since I don't have room for more, the voltage will be the same and I will 
still have low horsepower at higher RPMs. I could just keep shifting to keep 
the RPMs down, I suppose...

David H, I can get the PC680s for less than $95 each and the 100AH 
Thunderskys seem to be unable to supply enough peak current for racing.

Roland, Thanks for the calculator link.

David, Thanks for the range estimation.

Thank you,

Dave Delman
eLectricDeLorean.com
(Unfortunately not self recharging!)

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

You could get one pack for optimized for racing and one pack for your 
normal driving.



> [email protected] wrote:
> 
> > Willie, I think Lithium is not an option because I want to be able
> > to pull
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> [email protected] wrote:
> 
> > Willie, I think Lithium is not an option because I want to be
> > able to pull 1500 battery amps minimum. Thunderskys have
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Just to be clear, The complete picture is you want to pull 1500Amps @ X
volts or Y watts.

I missed the first part I think where you stated the pack voltage. looks
like it might be a high one.
Now if you are already at 288V because if the Z2kHV, Then Yes I see your
point.

Nothing can beat lead for economically belching out amps.

But the title says Range ??

Nothing beats LithiumIon for economically creating long range  (
Well This Month)

While 20C Lithium-ion exist, it is not economical, but we are getting
closer.

So I think in your case, Lead is the choice.

lets say 24 pc2150's for 288V
At 1500A we will sag to 150 volts or less so 1500 * 150 or 225Kw
but only 400 cycles and only 50 usable ah so (50*277*400) or 18K
miles(@300wh/mile) (hey that is actually nice)
Ads I see say about $300 each so $7200

90 100ah cells will sag to 2.5v each or 225V @ 300A a measly 67.5 kwh
(80* 270*2000) so 144,000 miles at 300 wh/mile (if we believe both of
the batteries manufacturing specs.)

of course
90x10 Headway cells at 7C / cell is 700A at a stiffer 270V is 189Kw but
it weighs less than the lead so it would more than balance out.

I just want to point this out for those considering a pack on a more
modest profile.

156V 100ah lead --> 100ah LiFe

lower amp usage.
156/12 13 12V batteries @ 75 lbs each 975Lbs. 50usable ah. 50 * 146V
is 7300wh or 24 miles @ 300wh/mile
400 * 24 = 9600 miles

156/3.2 is 49 cells at 7 lbs each is 350 lbs .8 * 147V * 80ah = is
9408wh or 33 miles at 280wh/mile (gotta take less to push 600lbs less of
batteries.
2000 * 33 = 66,000 miles.

It seems more attractive. 24 vs 33 doesn't seem to big a diff though so
I would put more lithium in if I could afford it. More ah instead of
more volts and better chance of getting to 2000 miles.

Both systems would need BMS unless you went floody, but that is the
other end of the scale where things are more economical for lead.
There seems to be some optimum points at the moment with a new one
showing up for the former sealed lead acid to be replaced by lead.
I have 24 orbitlas and a ZIlla1KHV and a single 9. It is difficult to
get over 400 battery amps at max throttle launches anyway as I have to
limit zilla to 170V max with one motor. 90 of the 100ah cells would be
sweet, 300A max for daily driving would be fine and the 470 lb drop in
weight would be great.
It would be a 10K pack rated at 2000 cycles vs a 5K pack rated at 300
cycles.
You heard me right. The Damn orbitals went up with lead prices but they
never really came back down, it is ridiculous.
I was gonna do the Lithium this summer or when the pack needed
replacing, But getting laid off at work has caused a unspecified
postponement.
> Willie, I think Lithium is not an option because I want to be able to pull 
> 1500 battery amps minimum. Thunderskys have only a 3C rating. I 
> understand that their 10C "burst" is measured in milliseconds. A123 and other Li 
> can do it but they all have a very expensive initial cost.
> 
> Cor van de Water, My decision to go up in voltage is so that I can maintain 
> the motor amps at higher RPMs. I already have the Z2K-HV controller. 
> You are correct, I will have to do something about my Iota-55 DC/DC. I don't 
> think the UB121100 can supply the current I need. I was thinking of 
> replacing my 9A31s with PC2150s. They certainly could supply the current but 
> since I don't have room for more, the voltage will be the same and I will 
> still have low horsepower at higher RPMs. I could just keep shifting to keep 
> the RPMs down, I suppose...
>
> David H, I can get the PC680s for less than $95 each and the 100AH 
> Thunderskys seem to be unable to supply enough peak current for racing.
> 
> Roland, Thanks for the calculator link.
> 
> David, Thanks for the range estimation.
> 
> Thank you,
> 
> Dave Delman
> eLectricDeLorean.com
> (Unfortunately not self recharging!)
>
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> 

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