# Why are LiFePO4 cells so tall?



## major (Apr 4, 2008)

MJ Monterey said:


> And most of the high amperage cells are in the neighborhood of 9 inches tall.
> Jack


Hi Jack,

Don't know, but I feel your pain. And on top of that you need headroom for connections and BMS. And I was told I must keep them upright.

major


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

Major, do you know why they have to be kept upright?

I can fit 10 in my spare wheel well if they are upright but I can fit 12 if they are on their flat sides in a 4x3 stack.
Also I can only fit 10 in the exhaust silencer space if they are in a 5x2 stack lying flat but not in any other orientation.


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## MJ Monterey (Aug 20, 2009)

Thanks Major and Woodsmith,

I'm feeling better already. For a change it's not just me that wants this!

O.K. back to waiting patiently for an answer.......


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

Woodsmith said:


> Major, do you know why they have to be kept upright?


Something about the slovent collecting over the vent if they get a little overcharge or something. Not real sure, but it was a strong recommendation by an expert. Check with your vendor, verify warranty.

major


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## BMI/LiFeTech (Aug 12, 2009)

MJ Monterey said:


> Well after developing large internet bruises on my forehead I'll ask if you fine folks, why are the currently available LiFePO4 high amp-hour cells so tall?
> 
> I will have available space under my seat and between the frame rails of my ground up project. However this space will be in the neighborhood of 4 to 5 inches tall. And most of the high amperage cells are in the neighborhood of 9 inches tall.
> 
> ...


You are only talking about the low discharge rate (less than 5C) cells which are generally of prismatic construction which are this large size and which must be kept upright so as to prevent solvent leakage.

There are several options for cells shorter than 9 inches in length which you can fit under seats, inside rails etc. and can be fitted in any orientation without any concern for leakage. 
The other major benefit of the smaller cells is that many are rated at very high discharge rates. 
For example both of our new cells are rated at 10C continous for our "high energy cell" and 20C continous for our "high power cell" and they can be fitted in any orientation.

A good example which most people would be familar with are A123 cells. Have you ever heard that an A123 cell must only be used upright?

The only issue of course with the smaller, more powerful cells is that they cost more than the lower C rate cells.


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## EVComponents (Apr 20, 2009)

They don't have to be upright. 
You can lay the prismatic cells on their sides.


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## MJ Monterey (Aug 20, 2009)

BMI/LiFeTech said:


> You are only talking about the low discharge rate (less than 5C) cells which are generally of prismatic construction which are this large size and which must be kept upright so as to prevent solvent leakage.


Yes you are correct my frustration is with the prismatic cells. 

Your companies packs have been intriguing and they will be considered when I make my final choice. Do you folks sell non packaged cells? If so what are the specs and pricing/price structure?

Since this is not a drag racer and will be street driven pack range is more important than peak power. Because of this I am o.k. with the lower continuous discharge rate from prismatic cells. Therefore, I can not justify the 2x to 3x higher cost for the higher rate (A123) cells. To get the range/speed I envision an approx 200ah 144 volt pack will be required. I just do not need 4k amp available (it would be nice but not required). 

I can wrap my head around a $10k battery pack (marginally), if it goes much beyond that ($15k to $30k that I see for cylindrical) the project will go on hold for another 2 to 3 years.

Jack


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

EVComponents said:


> They don't have to be upright.
> You can lay the prismatic cells on their sides.


Thanks, I'm glad i have some one that agrees with me on this. My supplier (not TS but same idea) tells me that they can be installed in any orientation, but upside down is probably not a good idea. I am planning on installing many of my batteries on their side to make them fit well in my car.

The batteries were in fact shipped on their side and many are currently being storred on their side without any solvent leakage for sevaral months now. Actually its been almost a year now


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## BMI/LiFeTech (Aug 12, 2009)

MJ Monterey said:


> Yes you are correct my frustration is with the prismatic cells.


Jack, you are not the first one to feel this sort of frustration with the larger format prismatic cells. I have heard of several cases where prismatic cells have been fitted on their sides and leakage has occured. All of the professional EV conversion companies I have spoken to or read the relevant information on their websites say that these cells must be installed upright or else all warranty will be considered null and void.

EVComponents comments saying it is OK to lay the cells on the side is the first time I have heard this. If EVComponents can give assurance that full warranty will be honoured if cells are fitted in an orientation other than upright this would give peace of mind to those considering using these cells in the future?


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## MJ Monterey (Aug 20, 2009)

EVComponents said:


> They don't have to be upright.
> You can lay the prismatic cells on their sides.


Please bring me up to speed on this.

Public perception is that they should not be mounted sideways.

Any special mounting requirements to lay them down?


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

david85 said:


> Thanks, I'm glad i have some one that agrees with me on this. My supplier (not TS but same idea) tells me that they can be installed in any orientation, but upside down is probably not a good idea. I am planning on installing many of my batteries on their side to make them fit well in my car.
> 
> The batteries were in fact shipped on their side and many are currently being storred on their side without any solvent leakage for sevaral months now. Actually its been almost a year now


Maybe they are only ok on their sides when they are not being charged or discharged.



BMI/LiFeTech said:


> EVComponents comments saying it is OK to lay the cells on the side is the first time I have heard this. If EVComponents can give assurance that full warranty will be honoured if cells are fitted in an orientation other than upright this would give peace of mind to those considering using these cells in the future?


If it is OK to lay them on their side or on edge then I would rather buy them from whoever can put that in writing on their warrenty.

One of the reasons for me wanting to lay them down is because I don't want to cut any metal on the car to get them to fit. Cutting metal and changing panel shapes and layout could easily land me in some difficult territory with regards to the UK IVA test.


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## TheAtomicAss (Feb 19, 2009)

This is the first time I've even heard of an issue with orientation of LiFePo4 cells. I would expect them not to leak prior to bulging under excessive overcharge... Ya' know, when they're already pretty well ruined anyway.

I wasn't even aware they had a vent.


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## BMI/LiFeTech (Aug 12, 2009)

TheAtomicAss said:


> This is the first time I've even heard of an issue with orientation of LiFePo4 cells. I would expect them not to leak prior to bulging under excessive overcharge... Ya' know, when they're already pretty well ruined anyway.
> 
> I wasn't even aware they had a vent.


All LiFePO4 cells have safety vents built in even though in some cells they may be hidden/covered.
Under adverse conditions such as a dead short circuit it is much more preferable for a cell to vent gas/liquid than to explode.


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## favguy (May 2, 2008)

Hi Woodsmith,
How old is your car? I'm assuming it's prevoiusly been in use in the UK as an ICE car? I'm converting a 1995 car and It's my understanding there is no need for an IVA test when converting from ICE to Electric, at least not on older models. You just need to provide proof of the conversion to the DVLA for tax reasons.

I also know of several other UK conversions, none of which have required an SVA, why do you think it is necessary?

Regards

Paul


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

favguy said:


> Hi Woodsmith,
> How old is your car? I'm assuming it's prevoiusly been in use in the UK as an ICE car? I'm converting a 1995 car and It's my understanding there is no need for an IVA test when converting from ICE to Electric, at least not on older models. You just need to provide proof of the conversion to the DVLA for tax reasons.
> 
> I also know of several other UK conversions, none of which have required an SVA, why do you think it is necessary?
> ...


The car is a 1991 MR2.
I have heard from guys on a Land Rover forum who have run in to problems with their older Land Rovers when they start modifying them for off road use. 
Shortening the chassis or changing cross members and outriggers for example becomes a modification of the chassis. 
Some inspectors pass it as insignificant where as others consider an extra bolt hole drilled in the chassis as a significant modification. 

There have been guys who have bob tailed their vehicle and then found that it was impossible to register because the SVA/IVA inspector says it needs a new chassis number and Q plate and to apply to DVLA for the number. DVLA says it doesn't need a new chassis number and plate and just needs inspecting to make sure it is safe. 
Neither side will allow it to be registered until they get their own way. The car usually ends up sold as parts in frustration.

On that basis I want to leave as much standard as possible and make any mods 'hidden' and looking as original as I can, just in case.

Rules are tightening for DIY engine swaps too. Receipts are needed from a garage for the 'engine' and/or the swap to prove it has been done by a competent person and to prove what the engine is, presumably for emissions.
Otherwise it will need to be independently inspected.
All this is at extra cost.


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## favguy (May 2, 2008)

Hi Woodsmith,
You had me worried there for a moment! I've checked up on the latest IVA handbook, and the following may be of interest, mainly the last statement. I think as you are converting the drive train only, and not changing the car into something else that requires it to be re-registered, ie. kit car or shortening the chassis etc. there should be no need for an IVA.​

*3. PASSENGER CARS AND LIGHT GOODS VEHICLES *​_*This category includes Wheelchair Accessible Vehicles (WAV) which are known as ‘Special Purpose’ vehicles (see Annex 4 on page 42 for a definition and a list of ‘Special Purpose’ vehicles). *_
*3.1 What is ‘Basic’ and ‘Normal’ IVA? *
*‘Basic’ *and *‘Normal’ *IVA refers to the level of inspection carried out on a vehicle and it applies to the following two vehicle categories *ONLY*: ​ 
*Passenger cars – M1 *

*Light Goods Vehicles – N1 *(only applicable for this category from *29th October 2011*) 

Both *Basic and Normal IVA *inspections take place at selected Testing Centres which are operated by the *Driver and Vehicle Agency (DVA) *_(see Annex 5 page 43). _

In all cases, IVA (whether Basic or Normal) is only required for passenger cars and light goods vehicles 
*less than 10 years old*, which require first licensing and registration in the United Kingdom. 


Personally I'm going with the following train of events, and I'm pretty sure it will aviod any possible hassle or need for further inspections, (at least with a currently registered, over 10 year old car!).​ 
1, Finish the car as an EV
2, Insure it, MOT it, then tax it (tax it as it was previously, ie an ICE)
3, Send the V5C Registration Document to the DVLA along with photographic proof of the conversion to Electric, at which point they will ammend the taxation class and send a new V5C & tax disc along with refund of ICE tax paid. The worst case scenario here is, I think, the DVLA might ask to view the car to check you're not lieing to them to save on tax! (photo's will most likely negate this).

For belt and braces, as I have an Automotive related business, I'll actually send them a conversion certificate on our letterhead along with spec's and photo's signed off by the business ​

In this scenario, you are also only dealing with the DVLA, who having checked the above guidance should not request an IVA test. 

I think you are more likely to get problems if you try to tax the car as an EV to start with having been off the road with SORN prior to this.​ 
I'd welcome any further feedback based on other experiences you know of!​ 
Best regards​ 
Paul​


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## gdirwin (Apr 7, 2009)

I also would like a definitive answer from the manufacturer - can TS or SE cells be mounted on their side?

I am hoping to bury cells under the floor pans to minimize the center of gravity and free up trunk space etc... If they can be mounted on their side, it saves 100mm (4 inches)!


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## BMI/LiFeTech (Aug 12, 2009)

I can't speak for TS or SE but be it known our 10C continous discharge and 20C continous discharge packs and cells can be mounted in any orientation without any problems. 
Our factory packs can be mounted any way they will fit the best and so long as they are used within our specifications (ie, never excessively over charged or over discharged then our full 3 years or 3000 cycles whichever comes first factory warranty will remain in force). 

Of course since our batteries are aimed at the performance/racing EV market and the manufacturing quality of our cells and packs is much higher than TS or SE so the cost of our battery products is also higher. 

I will have much more to say about this soon for those who can afford to pay more for premium performance with batteries that can be fitted in small places like under seats and inside rails so as to maximise total available battery capacity and therefore EV range per charge.


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

BMI/LiFeTech said:


> I can't speak for TS or SE but be it known our 10C continous discharge and 20C continous discharge packs and cells can be mounted in any orientation without any problems.
> Our factory packs can be mounted any way they will fit the best and so long as they are used within our specifications (ie, never excessively over charged or over discharged then our full 3 years or 3000 cycles whichever comes first factory warranty will remain in force).
> 
> Of course since our batteries are aimed at the performance/racing EV market and the manufacturing quality of our cells and packs is much higher than TS or SE so the cost of our battery products is also higher.
> ...


Are these prismatic or cylindrical cells?


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## MJ Monterey (Aug 20, 2009)

BMI/LiFeTech said:


> I will have much more to say about this soon for those who can afford to pay more for premium performance with batteries that can be fitted in small places like under seats and inside rails so as to maximise total available battery capacity and therefore EV range per charge.


BMI.
Thank you for contributing to this thread.

I understand holding data and pricing until product is ready. 

What time frame are you looking at for product release and availability? 

Will cells be available loose as well as integrated into modules?
Can you give prelim info like cell dimensions?

Thanks
Jack


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## BMI/LiFeTech (Aug 12, 2009)

They are cylindrical cells. Whenever you are talking about high power/high discharge rate (greater than 10C) they are always cylindrical. 
Look at A123 for example. 
You will find that the low discharge rate large format cells are prismatic and these are the ones which must only be operated upright so as to avoid the possibility of solvent leakage (as well as voiding your warranty).


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

From your logo I assumed these were Phostec based cells similar to Lifebatt.


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## BMI/LiFeTech (Aug 12, 2009)

JRP3 said:


> From your logo I assumed these were Phostec based cells similar to Lifebatt.


Yes that is correct.


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## MN Driver (Sep 29, 2009)

I just found this link while perusing the UK BVS forum. This guy had a dead Lithium Ion cell, I believe it is an old Thunder Sky or a Hipower cell but I'm not sure, there is fluid in the cell and I'd assume that the proper distribution of the fluid requires the cell to be upright while charging and discharging otherwise parts of the cell will be dry.

Granted LiFePO4 cells are different, but I think that with all prismatic cells Lithium cells that this likely is the case regarding the solvent or electrolyte fluid inside the cell.

Based on the test from the Thunder Sky website where they put the cell under a controlled fire, you can see when the plastic is melted off that the cell is designed similar to this cell and also similar to pouch cells with the parallel stacked layers inside, except instead of a pouch, there is a thick plastic case with a safety vent on top.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/anachrocomputer/sets/72157604409956712/


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## dimitri (May 16, 2008)

From what I was able to gather when I researched this subject, the liquid inside prismatic cell is not electrolyte, its more of a thermal conductor, removing heat from the pouch towards the casing, creating thermal conduction between the pouch and the case.

Early models of TS cells ( few years ago ) had an issue where this liquid was corroding one of the terminal posts from inside when cell was laying on a side and liquid was touching the terminal.

I heard from some sources that this issue has been resolved since then, don't know if this is true and how it was resolved, maybe they changed chemical composition of liquid or terminal or both to prevent corrosive reaction, who knows, its not like you can get truth from Chinese factory.

I personally decided not to risk such issues and mounted my cells upright. If vendor says it's OK and has proof, then I guess its OK.

Keep in mind though, warranty is only for 1 year or whatever EV Components provides, but cells are expected to last 10 years or more. What if issues arise 5 years down the road? Who will you call then?

Perhaps Jack Rickard can chime in, since he cut one cell open, was there any evidence that liquid comes in contact with terminal and was there any corrosion. But even then, his cell was almost new, not 3-5 years in service.

Draw your own conclusions....


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## 280z1975 (Oct 2, 2008)

Would it be possible to get smaller "pancake" size cells made from TS or SE? Ones that would fit better under the car (or can be stacked on top of each other for better fitting. i know the new Nissan Leaf has flat Lithium cells, but I am sure they are $$$.


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## dimitri (May 16, 2008)

TS used to make 200ah cell that was wider and shorter, not sure if they make those anymore, maybe EV Components can advise if this format is still available?

I think that format would be perfect for under car mounting.


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## paker (Jun 20, 2008)

Rebirth Auto is showing this 200AR battery on their site.









http://rebirthauto.com/lithiumcell200ahnominal325vdc-lfp200aha.aspx


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## MJ Monterey (Aug 20, 2009)

They are over 10" tall......

Maybe I can fold them in half or thirds to fit!


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

The solution has to be having the vent located in such a way that the cell can be laid on its flat side. That way they can be installed in the reasonable thickness of a sandwiched floor.

Maybe a case that placed the terminals and vent at one edge of one of the flat faces would allow a very low profile installation though wouldn't allow flat stacking unless the terminals were recessed.
That would make a very usable package.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

One could parallel a bunch of 40 ah cells to make a fairly low profile, about 7.5 inches tall, pack.


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

JRP3 said:


> One could parallel a bunch of 40 ah cells to make a fairly low profile, about 7.5 inches tall, pack.


Not sure if you remember but when I tried briefly to organize a group buy, there was one battery pack that was smaller then the rest. Some errors were made on their end as to pricing and thats where if all fell apart.

Anyway, what I discovered is that the pack was in fact a series/parallel configuration much like you describe so I would say the answer is yes.

However, since we have some actual dealers here, I would like to get their opinion too.


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## MJ Monterey (Aug 20, 2009)

Good concept and may work for someone that needs the cells just a little shorter than the 160s.

On that line of thinking I should remind folks of this cell that is "new"
http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showthread.php/new-lifepo4-cell-3-2v240ah-35671.html

Unfortunately, at just under 7 inches with connectors, it is still too tall for my planned use by a couple of inches. Every inch will increase aerodynamic drag by around 2%. It may be that I have to make the choice between increased drag and increased cost/complexity of multiple cylindrical cells.


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## EVComponents (Apr 20, 2009)

dimitri said:


> TS used to make 200ah cell that was wider and shorter, not sure if they make those anymore, maybe EV Components can advise if this format is still available?
> 
> I think that format would be perfect for under car mounting.


The ThunderSky 200 AH cells that is currently available is the one in the same case as the 160 AH.

In fact, the same case is used for 160 AH, 180 AH, 190 AH and 200 AH.
There is a weight difference between the cells, but they are in the same case.

Dimensions：182�~279�~71（mm）

http://www.evcomponents.com/SearchResults.asp?Cat=34

We are only listing the 160 AH and 200 AH cells. But they are available in 180 and 190 if someone wants them for some reason. The only reason I can think of to do less than 200 AH would be cost. So that is why we keep the 160 AH cell available in that size case. 20% less expensive for someone trying to wok on a budget.


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## Bentzon (Sep 5, 2009)

Does the sky energy cells come in a 200Ah version same since as the 180A cells also?


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

Don't think they offer a 200Ah cell. For that kind of capacity you have to go to 220ah.


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## Korben_Dallas (Feb 27, 2009)

Peter Perkins did a conversion of a small van and all of his TS cells are lying on their flat sides. 
See here: http://web.archive.org/web/20080120053159/www.solarvan.co.uk/ac1.htm
I also asked him if he ever had any trouble with them and it seems it didn't matter. I think he used some of the first cells ever to be imported in the UK, so by now they've hopfully advanced their cells to be safely mounted in alternative orientations.
Steven from SE told me that they recommend the cells to be mounted upright, but lying on their small or flat sides would ok too. 
From Jack's video you can see that there is no real liquid inside the cell.


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## BMI/LiFeTech (Aug 12, 2009)

Korben_Dallas said:


> Peter Perkins did a conversion of a small van and all of his TS cells are lying on their flat sides.
> See here: http://web.archive.org/web/20080120053159/www.solarvan.co.uk/ac1.htm
> I also asked him if he ever had any trouble with them and it seems it didn't matter. I think he used some of the first cells ever to be imported in the UK, so by now they've hopfully advanced their cells to be safely mounted in alternative orientations.
> Steven from SE told me that they recommend the cells to be mounted upright, but lying on their small or flat sides would ok too.
> From Jack's video you can see that there is no real liquid inside the cell.


It would clear this matter up for everyone if Thundersky or their major distributors would just set the record straight and indicate whether or not it is OK to install cells on their sides and confirm warranty still applies in this case.

Why is it so hard to get an answer?


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## favguy (May 2, 2008)

I suspect they won't confirm anything as they don't yet know. This chemistry is so new they don't even know what life expectancy will be in the case of upright cells, let alone other orientations. 

Personally, I'd be very cautious about operating these on the side, even if the electrolyte is not wet, so to speak, surely it will migrate over time based on orientation?, also, the vent on top of the cell must be there for a reason as opposed to complete sealing, what happens under heavy use (which is what they get in an EV, ideal seems to be .5C remember) if this vent is on the side?

I suppose only time will tell, thankfully we have some brave users such as our yellow van friend to report back as time passes, lets hope they work well like this.

Paul


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## MJ Monterey (Aug 20, 2009)

BMI/LiFeTech said:


> It would clear this matter up for everyone if Thundersky or their major distributors would just set the record straight and indicate whether or not it is OK to install cells on their sides and confirm warranty still applies in this case.
> 
> Why is it so hard to get an answer?


And the answer is from Steve at SkyEnergy (on this forum P.M.)
No warranty if not mounted upright. Potentially non liability clause in purchase contract?



skyenergysteven said:


> Hello MJ Monterey
> 
> We strongly recommend to use the battery straight.
> 
> ...


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Apparently EV components thinks it's ok to mount them on their side, so presumably they would honor the warranty if you purchased from them.


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

I guess its a bit of a grey area for now. Not surprising considering this is still fairly new stuff. Meh, I' be mounting much of my battery sideways. I'll let you know if anything blows up or I have a premature failure in the flat pack. Don't think its a big deal, but hey, theres always some risk involved.


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## BMI/LiFeTech (Aug 12, 2009)

JRP3 said:


> Apparently EV components thinks it's ok to mount them on their side, so presumably they would honor the warranty if you purchased from them.


Don't presume anything.......
So they "think" it is ok to mount them on their sides, while the manufacturer themselves confirms they must not be used in any orientation other than upright.

Do you believe the manufacturer of the product or someone selling the product supplied by the manufacturer?

Only yesterday I was speaking with supplier of high quality electric boat motors. He was telling me about one of his customers who is using a large bank of Thundersky batteries on his electric boat which were installed less than a year ago. These batteries are all mouted upright (correctly). 
Recently there were some concerns regarding a few of the cells so the boat owner contacted the Thundersky distributor who supplied the batteries regarding the 12 months warranty only to be told that the batteries were out of the 90 day warranty period so no warranty applies!

It is one thing to be told "sure buddy it's fine to mount the cells on their side" or "warranty is a full 12 months" but the lesson to be learned is don't trust what a distributor says is ok unless they are willing to put that in writing.

I can't speak for North America or Europe but here in Australia with the consumer protection laws in this country it is illegal for a supplier of these batteries to only provide 90 days warranty. The minimum warranty period is 12 months. 

The other issue is that this warranty is a distributors warranty only in the country where the batteries are sold. Please correct me if I am wrong but I understand that there is no warranty provided by the manufacturer whatsoever. 
If this is the case it says alot when a manufacturer of a product is not willing to stand behind their own product and give their customers peace of mind with a lengthy warranty. Perhaps the manufacturer knows something about the longevity of their product or there may be other reasons why they are not willing to provide a warrranty.

So all I say is that no matter which vendor supplies your cells/batteries make sure all details such as warranty conditions and approved mounting positions, etc. are provided in writing so you know where you stand should you have a problem some time in the future.

Just my two cents worth........


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

I have an email from EVcomponents stating they will provide a 1 year warranty for cells and a 2 year warranty if you use a BMS they sell.


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## BMI/LiFeTech (Aug 12, 2009)

JRP3 said:


> I have an email from EVcomponents stating they will provide a 1 year warranty for cells and a 2 year warranty if you use a BMS they sell.


That is what you want to see!


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

This is interesting, a plug in kit for the Prius which looks to be using prismatics mounted on their sides: http://green.autoblog.com/2009/10/1...association-offers-plug-in-kit-for-the-prius/


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## MountainTrek (Aug 10, 2007)

There seem to be a couple of different questions in this thread. The first one is about the height of the LiFePO4 cells. The answer is that they don't have to be that tall. I have seen the 100Ah cells, and they are tall in relationship to their width. The 200Ah cells on the other hand approach being square. So I don't think they have to be tall.

The second question involves orientation of the cells. The truth is that they can be mounted in any orientation. They are dry cells, the opposing sheets within the case are bound in place, so there is no movement of the plates. I have seen about 100 installations of the cells in cars/trucks, and in alternative energy storage buildings. The preferred installation orientation seems to be on their long edge rather than with the long edge vertical (terminals on top). I noticed that they installed the ones in the Prius module in that orientation as well, on their long edge.

For a manufacturer to declare that a variation on orientation would void the warranty seems ridiculous. But so does a 90 day warranty on a high ticket battery like those.

The LiFePO4 cells are becoming more common in the USA, so if anyone has any difficulty in getting satisfaction in warranty support, look around. There are several companies that are now offering warranty support on LiFePO4 cells sold by others. It is about time.


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## jorhyne (Aug 20, 2008)

MountainTrek said:


> There seem to be a couple of different questions in this thread. The first one is about the height of the LiFePO4 cells. The answer is that they don't have to be that tall. I have seen the 100Ah cells, and they are tall in relationship to their width. The 200Ah cells on the other hand approach being square. So I don't think they have to be tall.
> 
> The second question involves orientation of the cells. The truth is that they can be mounted in any orientation. They are dry cells, the opposing sheets within the case are bound in place, so there is no movement of the plates. I have seen about 100 installations of the cells in cars/trucks, and in alternative energy storage buildings. The preferred installation orientation seems to be on their long edge rather than with the long edge vertical (terminals on top). I noticed that they installed the ones in the Prius module in that orientation as well, on their long edge.
> 
> ...


Care to post which companies are offering warrantys?


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## MJ Monterey (Aug 20, 2009)

The only warranties I am concerned with is the Manufacturers. 

If they say no warranty on cells mounted in any orientation other than vertical they will not have my business for this project and potentially any future projects. 

You see once I invest the time and energy to get the cells from a123 or Lifetech in an apporpriate enclosure with BMS there will be no reason for me to go back to less adaptable solutions like the big bricks. 

If they come out with a usable package before I weld up my frame, then I will consider their product.


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