# Benefits to liquid cooling Lead Acid?



## meanderingthemaze (Jan 25, 2010)

Is there a reason why people don't make much effort to regulate temperature of lead acids? Are there any cons to doing this? Does it just seem like too much of an investment for lower cost batteries?

From what I understand too much heat can shorten lifespan. But they need to get hot enough to provide full power. 

John Wayland used aluminum battery cases to help dissipate heat, however, that was under extreme conditions. 

I've never heard of liquid cooling lead acid and I'm guessing there is a reason but I don't know why that would be. I would imagine that you could also charge quicker if had liquid cooling.


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## EVfun (Mar 14, 2010)

Liquid cooling lead acid... first thought through my head was, "No, you should not throw them in the lake after switching to Lithium."

Leads only advantage is a lower up front cost and adding more hardware will quickly eat into the savings. The cycle life of lead acid is quite short making to cost per mile quite high. Few EVs get more than about 500 cycles out of a lead pack, and most of those that do are only using a fraction of the available range. Lead acid powered EVs with anything approaching a decent range need suspension modifications to handle the pack weight, which adds cost to a conversion. 

You can make up a LiFePO4 battery that will have about the same available capacity as a 6 volt golf cart battery for about $250. That would be 2, 100 amp hour CALB cells. The golf cart battery will weight about 60 pounds while the Lithium battery will weight less than 20 pounds. The golf cart battery will have a significantly shorter service life.


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## Ziggythewiz (May 16, 2010)

Not sure what condition you would need to cool lead in. I've heard heat is bad for them, but mine work better at 90F than 70. They don't heat up measurably in use. I suppose you could put a fan on them while charging, just keep the spark away.


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## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

There might be some validity to the idea, batteries mounted in the trunk out of the engine heat have lasted me 4-5 years, whereas under hood batteries generally go 2-3 years.

Here in the desert, we consider 2 years to be about average for a starter battery. 3 is good.

Any cold weather people chime in on battery life in cooler climes?

Miz


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## Ziggythewiz (May 16, 2010)

mizlplix said:


> Any cold weather people chime in on battery life in cooler climes?


Cold is far worse on lead in use than heat. Mine started their death slide after a mild winter. I assume because I sized them for about 50% DOD, and with the cold less power was available so I was probably pulling closer to 80% DOD.


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## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

So inferring from this: FLA batteries need to keep to a median temperature gradient, (Say, 20-40C) to get max life span.



So,If we add a water cooling system to their needs, It just makes Lithium based batteries look more reasonable.

Miz


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## piotrsko (Dec 9, 2007)

about the only time a FLA will get hot is under SEVERE charge / discharge cycles. Phoenix basically evaporates the water out of the cells and I can't recall anybody taking off the covers to add water to a maintenance free battery when we did the Yuma thing. There are thermal flexing issues, But not enough to worry about.

as to the median temp, if you are happy so will be the FLA although they prefer Miami to Minot.


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## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

I guess I am a "Battery Abuser", because I have drilled 1/8" holes in "maintenance free" batteries to replenish the water. 

(Down here they are called "easier maintenance" batteries.)

The only real difference to a supposedly maintenance free battery is that it tries to re-condense the evaporating water hopefully extending the service interval.

Back in the stone age, I worked for a local battery rebuilder. My how batteries have changed in 40 years. 

Miz


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## EVfun (Mar 14, 2010)

mizlplix said:


> I guess I am a "Battery Abuser", because I have drilled 1/8" holes in "maintenance free" batteries to replenish the water.
> 
> (Down here they are called "easier maintenance" batteries.)


Sounds like they are "harder maintenance" batteries to me. I've never had to drill holes to add water.


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## piotrsko (Dec 9, 2007)

EVfun said:


> Sounds like they are "harder maintenance" batteries to me. I've never had to drill holes to add water.


Well, heck no. You even have this water stuff fall from the sky all the time. no wonder you don't need to add water.


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## meanderingthemaze (Jan 25, 2010)

So, we've established that extreme temps are not good for lead acid. That is sort of the point of my question. Water tends to act as a regulator for temp keeping it closer to ambient. 

This whole question came out of reading something from John Wayland's site that said he air cooled his lead between races. He preferred them hot because you get more current out of them when they're hot, but if you go TOO hot, then you wreck them. So, he didn't even air cool them while racing. But he also used and recommended aluminum boxes to add a slight heat radiator effect. 

Perhaps that is the optimum solution. Use aluminum battery boxes so that if they do get really hot, the aluminum will help cool them, but it's also cheap and simple to make. As for the people in cold climates, this won't help in winter. 

Who's using lead anyway these days?


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## piotrsko (Dec 9, 2007)

anybody who is : 1 Really cheap. 2 apprehensive about LIPO, and all the crap from chinese manufacturers 3 likes to haul around 1/2 ton of stuff (big truck syndrome) 4 can't decide on the charger/ bms issues 5 waiting for LIPO prices to go down (yeah really, that will happen)

I'm a 1,3,5. YMMV BTW my constant voltage power supply cost $40 from new parts. AND I don't care what the lipo fanciers think, my truck is registered and running, right now. Even Gotti used FLA's once.


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## meanderingthemaze (Jan 25, 2010)

piotrsko said:


> anybody who is : 1 Really cheap. 2 apprehensive about LIPO, and all the crap from chinese manufacturers 3 likes to haul around 1/2 ton of stuff (big truck syndrome) 4 can't decide on the charger/ bms issues 5 waiting for LIPO prices to go down (yeah really, that will happen)
> 
> I'm a 1,3,5. YMMV BTW my constant voltage power supply cost $40 from new parts. AND I don't care what the lipo fanciers think, my truck is registered and running, right now. Even Gotti used FLA's once.


Dang it piotrsko, how did you figure me out!?!? 

I still have not drank the lithium laced kool aid. Not that I would turn down an opportunity if I could get them for the price of lead, but without money to burn...I guess I prefer the devil I know to the devil I don't.


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## piotrsko (Dec 9, 2007)

meanderingthemaze said:


> Dang it piotrsko, how did you figure me out!?!?


You missed the complaint about my conversion from my wife: "No way in {heck} am I going to spend another @#$%&* 10K on that stupid car". I just thought you were encumbered also.

Yeah I too lust after low periodic numbers, but until this fries all the lead plates, just ain't gonna happen.

BTW Used to be many small FLA battery recycle places in LA that would custom build stuff for very cheap.


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## meanderingthemaze (Jan 25, 2010)

> You missed the complaint about my conversion from my wife: "No way in {heck} am I going to spend another @#$%&* 10K on that stupid car". I just thought you were encumbered also.


Yeah, the trick seems to be to remove all encumberences. 



> BTW Used to be many small FLA battery recycle places in LA that would custom build stuff for very cheap.


Do you mean for special battery boxes with plumbing? I'd like to hear more about how to find those places.


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## piotrsko (Dec 9, 2007)

meanderingthemaze said:


> Do you mean for special battery boxes with plumbing? I'd like to hear more about how to find those places.



Nope. The battery places will generally build any style you want depending on what their selection of cases are. If they have a bunch of 24 v truck batteries, then some sort of configuration is possible from that. Plate thickness, AGM mats, whatever you specify. about 50 to 70 % off retail. Look under battery or recycling in the phone book. My favorite was one on Manhattan Beach Blvd and Inglewood but that was 30 years ago.


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## meanderingthemaze (Jan 25, 2010)

piotrsko said:


> Nope. The battery places will generally build any style you want depending on what their selection of cases are. If they have a bunch of 24 v truck batteries, then some sort of configuration is possible from that. Plate thickness, AGM mats, whatever you specify. about 50 to 70 % off retail. Look under battery or recycling in the phone book. My favorite was one on Manhattan Beach Blvd and Inglewood but that was 30 years ago.


Interesting. I'll have to look into that. Thanks!


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