# Trojan T-145 - one cell not working



## major (Apr 4, 2008)

Christoph said:


> Hi,
> I use a John Deere E-Gator with 8 Trojan T-145 every day on my farm. The 8 batteries are getting old, I have to add about 5 litres of water per month. Now the John Deere looses power even more quickly, so I checked the batteries with a hydrometer - one cell in one battery doesn't show any reactions, the others are all more or less at the same metering on the border between green and yellow (I don't think it get's more precise with these simple hydrometers).
> Q1: Does anyone have experience with T-145 and the amount of water required to refill? Is 5 litres/8 batteries = .625 litres per month a lot? I have no comparison other than it getting rapidly more every month.
> Q2: What to do? Exchange the one battery or all of them?
> ...


Hi Christoph,

Yes, that sounds like excessive water. How old are the batteries? Typically a bad cell means a bad battery and requires replacement. Unless the other batteries are known good, I suggest replacement of the entire set. Consider using a reputable battery dealer who will help you diagnose your problem: Why are your batteries going dry? Is your charger killing them? etc. And a dealer who will stand behind what he sells like to honor warranty.

Regards,

major


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## Christoph (Oct 4, 2014)

Hi, thanks for the quick answer. The batteries are about 4 years old, the hour meter shows 600 hours.
As I live in Germany, there are very few dealers selling Trojan batteries at all, but warranty is tightly controlled by government and nothing to worry about - what is written down must (and will) be honored usually without problems.

Best,
Christoph


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

Christoph said:


> Hi, thanks for the quick answer. The batteries are about 4 years old, the hour meter shows 600 hours.
> As I live in Germany, there are very few dealers selling Trojan batteries at all, but warranty is tightly controlled by government and nothing to worry about - what is written down must (and will) be honored usually without problems.
> 
> Best,
> Christoph


That is what we call a golf cart battery. For years, and maybe still, in this country, due to the number of golf courses and carts, the production volume of golf cart batteries made them the most attractive value for lead acid EV batteries. The first EV set I purchased was 16 Trojan T125s about 25 years ago. Point being: Check to see what golf carts use in your area and where to purchase those. You would not need to stick with Trojan brand. There may be a manufacturer nearer to you or even a Chinese import. 

Re: Water loss. I think it is happening on the charge cycle so look at chargers as you investigate battery replacement.

4 years ~ 1500 days ~ Could be 1000 charge cycles(?) Unknown DoD (depth of discharge). Short cycles will give you increased cycle life. But it sounds like you're to the point where probability will start to get you. Even if you fix one dead cell, it won't be long before another dies. 

You could consider a switch to a Lithium battery. It would involve an extensive effort but could result in several times the cycle life and/or several times the range, and no water


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## dragonsgate (May 19, 2012)

Christoph said:


> Hi, thanks for the quick answer. The batteries are about 4 years old, the hour meter shows 600 hours.
> As I live in Germany, there are very few dealers selling Trojan batteries at all, but warranty is tightly controlled by government and nothing to worry about - what is written down must (and will) be honored usually without problems.
> 
> Best,
> Christoph


 How many charge cycles do these batteries have? Do you equalize every charge? While gassing helps the batteries doing it every charge can cause excessive water loss. How far down do you discharge the batteries? Unless you are really strapped for cash I would suggest getting all new batteries. The old batteries will drag a new battery down to their level in no time so if you do one battery a used T145 would be best because it will not be long before the rest of them start to go. Your pack is small enough a lithium replacement might be an affordable option.


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## Christoph (Oct 4, 2014)

Hi,
I bought the Gator used from a rental company with 150 hours on the meter, but don't know how they handled the batteries at all. We do more or less the same work every day with it, an in the beginning we could do it with a single nightly charge, but about half a year ago we had to recharge at lunch, otherwise the batteries wouldn't last.
We very seldom use up the charge, usually we keep the charge meter (is there a better word?) in the yellow area - it has 10 leds, five green, three yellow, two red.
I read on the Trojan website about "equalizing", but we just attach the charger, and it has no switches or whatever.
Regarding the lithium replacement - could I just replace the old batteries with lithium ones? Could you help me with a product name/number? Wouldn't I need a new charger (the one I use is a "Lestronic II" that came with the vehicle)? Do you think the vehicle electronics could remain the same with Lithium batteries?

I would happily spend more money if the longevity of the batteries would outweigh the extra cost.

Something completely different: If I stick with the Trojans, do you have any experience with the watering system they sell? It is really hard to refill all the batteries without spilling water, and even harder to get the fill height correctly.

Thank you in advance,
Christoph


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

Christoph said:


> Regarding the lithium replacement - could I just replace the old batteries with lithium ones? Could you help me with a product name/number? Wouldn't I need a new charger (the one I use is a "Lestronic II" that came with the vehicle)? Do you think the vehicle electronics could remain the same with Lithium batteries?
> 
> I would happily spend more money if the longevity of the batteries would outweigh the extra cost.





major said:


> You could consider a switch to a Lithium battery. It would involve an extensive effort but could result in several times the cycle life and/or several times the range, and no water


Note the underlined word. I suspect the motor and motor controller could remain the same, but the charger and any type of vehicle control electronics would need replacement or modification. Lithium batteries are not or do not come as direct drop-in replacements for lead acid. Judging from your posts, I think you would need to hire out the design and installation of a Lithium battery. It could well be worth it for a daily used work vehicle as a good Lithium installation could provide 10, maybe 20 years of service without maintenance. The initial cost of Lithium may be 2 to 4 times that of lead acid replacement, but the life cycle cost could be half as much, or less, than continued use of lead acid. 

I have seen and actually installed a central water system for a client which worked well. I'd certainly look into it if I were you. But as I have alluded, I think your charger is cookin the H2O out.


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## Sunking (Aug 10, 2009)

I have extensive experience with Trojan batteries. Short answer is you need to replace all the batteries and your hydrometer as it is not worth the wrapper it came in. 

On average in a golf cart a set Trojans is a two year battery. For those that do not abuse the batteries and discharge them too deeply mat get 4 years at best. But I can tell you are not one of those that will get 4 years.


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## dragonsgate (May 19, 2012)

Sunking said:


> I have extensive experience with Trojan batteries. Short answer is you need to replace all the batteries and your hydrometer as it is not worth the wrapper it came in. On average in a golf cart a set Trojans is a two year battery. For those that do not abuse the batteries and discharge them too deeply mat get 4 years at best. But I can tell you are not one of those that will get 4 years.


I did my build in Nov. 1999 and used a hydrometer until I realized it was a waste of time around Jan 2000. I still have the hydrometer but don't know where it is.


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## Sunking (Aug 10, 2009)

dragonsgate said:


> I did my build in Nov. 1999 and used a hydrometer until I realized it was a waste of time around Jan 2000. I still have the hydrometer but don't know where it is.


What kind of hydrometer? Anything you buy at a box store or auto parts store is not worth the wrapper it comes in. 

A good quality temperature compensated is the only reliable and accurate and reliable way to measure the batteries SOC and health. Volt meters are pretty much useless on flooded batteries unless the battery is disconnected a allowed to rest 24 hours at room temp. Even then it is only a Ball Park meter. 

I live in a gated community with a private lake and golf course. There are over 600 golf carts here and every dang one of them bring them to me with battery problems. And every single one except mine and a couple of other close friends are abused and in bad shape. 

Your average citizen has no clue how to care for batteries, and golf cart manufactures are happy about that because it means more frequent replacements from their dealers. They even take it one step further by issuing crappy battery chargers with their carts to speed up the deterioration process. Its a viscous cycle. The owner over discharges the batteries, then when they do finally charge them up use a crappy charger that over charges the crap out of the batteries using a timer to shut it off rather than monitoring charge current to taper off and terminate the charge.

First thing I tell anyone is get rid of the charger that came with the cart and get a good 4-Stage charger made for FLA batteries and never take them off the charger, and plug it in after any use, even if they only ran to the mailbox. Check hydrometer readings weekly and take corrective action as required.


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## Christoph (Oct 4, 2014)

Hi, 
yes, it's a cheap hydrdometer and I don't trust the absolute readings- but I think the reading differences between cells should be some indication. Q: Can you recommend any kind of good hydrometer? I looked, but found none.
Next Q: Can you recommend a specific charger for 8 Trojan T-145? I'm really no expert, but you seem to be one.
Thank you again for your time.

Best,
Christoph


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

I was hoping Sunking would chime in. He is presently looking at replacing lead acid in his cart with Lithium. Is your Gator 48V? Golf carts come in both 36 and 48V. And I have a friend who has inquired of me to convert a 72V Gem to Lithium. I wish I knew of an affordable, safe conversion method for these carts. If done right, it could be as easy as charging your cell phone for the user. 

I've got Lithium in my yard tractor going on 3 years now. A 3 kWh 48V pack. Works great. I don't use it that much so only charge every week or two. But I don't have a BMS and/or automatic charger. I haven't needed it. But I am a battery expert and treat the battery appropriately. I would never let my tractor out to a user who might charge unattended. A failure or fault in the battery or charge system could result in a sizable fire and endanger life and property. The things need a management system with safeguards to be suitable for public consumption.

As far as a charger for your Pb-Acid battery set, how about a Delta-Q? They can be programmed with at least 3 stages. I been impressed with their QuiQ product series.


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## Sunking (Aug 10, 2009)

Christoph said:


> Hi,
> yes, it's a cheap hydrdometer and I don't trust the absolute readings- but I think the reading differences between cells should be some indication.


To be honest I do not know how sensitive the auto hydrometers are, but if all indicated the same would mean Equalization is not needed.

The really high quality hydrometers are obtained from Laboratory supply houses. You can get them for wine making and in all sorts of ranges. Batteries are a fairly narrow scale.

OK I will let you off cheap Deka makes a decent one and very reasonable priced. Likey less than what you paid for your automotive type. Shop around for the Deka unit as it can be had for as little as $5, with $8 being average, and $11 on the high side. 



Christoph said:


> Next Q: Can you recommend a specific charger for 8 Trojan T-145? I'm really no expert, but you seem to be one.
> Thank you again for your time


Yeah there are a few ways to go. If you want to recharge ASAP then a good smart 3 or 4-Stage charger is the way to go like a Schauer makes pretty good chargers. Just be sure to specify voltage, battery type, and plug type.Something in the 15 to 25 amp range.

Another type is a Float Charger. Takes longer like over night, but very gentle and what utility industry uses. Iota makes some really decent ones. Note here if you go this route will require you to make the umbilical cord to the cart. Not hard so don't let that scare you off. 

One last comment. If you get new Trojans or US Battery, look into the Watering Systems they offer. The caps are replace with water level indicators, and inter-connected by tubing. Turns a 15 minute hassle job into a simple 1-minute job to fill batteries with water. All you need is one of the plastic bottles of distilled water. Check it out at Hydro Link.


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## Christoph (Oct 4, 2014)

Hello again,
so I went ahead and bought 8 T-145plus (EUR 203 each, approx. US$ 254) and the Trojan watering system (EUR 135, approx. US$ 170) including freight.
I started looking into temperature compensated hydrometers on my own and indeed found some in laboratory supply shops (approx. EUR 60 for a really good one).
In regards to the charger I'll check out the links, thank you for the information.
Best,
Christoph


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## Sunking (Aug 10, 2009)

major said:


> I was hoping Sunking would chime in. He is presently looking at replacing lead acid in his cart with Lithium. Is your Gator 48V? Golf carts come in both 36 and 48V. And I have a friend who has inquired of me to convert a 72V Gem to Lithium. I wish I knew of an affordable, safe conversion method for these carts. If done right, it could be as easy as charging your cell phone for the user.


So ping me. Safe I can help you with. I have done some testing with interesting data which might just tell you exactly what you want to know. When Peuket is factored in to Replace 100 AH of FLA requires 45 AH of LFP. Even that is conservative as the LFP will actually have a bit more range, but 45 is as low as I am comfortable with. 

My parameter is for both batteries to be used 100% SOC down to 20% SOC. Factoring in Peurkert for both batteries will have roughly 35 to 37 usable AH.

The sales pitch to justify the added cost is LFP i sless expensive in the long term or 10 years. Running FLA down to 20% SOC as is the accepted industry standard for golf carts means you got a 2 season FLA battery or roughly 400 to 500 cycles. LFP on the other hand is 1800 to 2000 cycles. 

Example your average 48 volt golf cart runs on 8 volt Trojan batteries of 170 AH. To replace it with LFP you need a 16S 75 AH pack with at lesst 4C continuous discharge rating for safety. Since I know of 75 AH LFP cells perhaps 100 AH is more than enough. OK a new set of Trojans is in the USA is $900. A 16S 100 AH cost $2100 w/o BMS or $2600 with BMS. But BMS is not required for this application. Just bottom balancing from time to time as needed. 

It only takes one FLA battery replacement to justify LFP. At the end of 10 years you spend roughly $2200 for LFP or $4000 for FLA. 

Last sales point is very significant performance boost in acceleration and speed. A golf cart gross weight is 1000 pounds with 500 of that in battery. A LFP battery weighs 1/4 that weight of 120 pounds. You loose 30 to 40% of your vehicle weight and lower the center of gravity. Couple that with much lower battery internal resistance and you have a lot more current and voltage available under heavy load conditions. Add it up and you increase acceleration and top speed, not to mention gain efficiency. 

That is my two-cents worth.


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