# Bike Kit...best place?



## huck369 (Sep 22, 2008)

Howdy,
I'm a newbie here..

I'm wanting to convert a motorcycle over to an EV...

Looking at the E-Tech RT motor...72 volt system.

Where is the best place to purchase a kit at?

I've found a couple sites but figure the people here would probably know the best places.

I know NOTHING about electrical stuff, so I'm sure I'll have plenty of questions as I go.....
I'm good with mechanicals, so hopefully I can manage this too.

I've picked up a 93 Honda CBR600 for my donor (blown head gasket)

Thanks,
Huck


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## TX_Dj (Jul 25, 2008)

A "kit" may not be the best bet, per se... every bike is a little different, and sometimes even if a "kit" seems cheaper, it can end up more expensive if something in the kit doesn't work as expected in your frame.

Plus, buying your components piecemeal will give you the flexibility to meet your goals instead of those of someone else.

Read thru the forums here, use the Search feature and the NuWiki feature. The concepts of conversion are the same whether you're looking at a small scooter or a freight train. 

There's nothing terribly difficult, but learning what you're about to undertake is paramount for success.

Good luck!


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## huck369 (Sep 22, 2008)

Thanks for the quick reply...

I understand what you're saying...but a "Kit" sounds more appealing to me, due to my inexperience, and the kit should be the result of someone with more experience than me....and being my first venture into building an EV, a "tried" kit should make it easier for me...

As for making mounts to fit the motor, and batteries and such will be no problem for me, as I work for a metal fabrication shop (I'm an CAD Draftsman) so I just want to be able to buy the components with some instructions to go by, on wiring it all up.

After I get it done (assuming it all works) then I may try something bigger, but just wanting to "Get my feet wet" with this project.

But any advise is apprecieated..


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## polygonfla (Aug 15, 2008)

Most so called “EV Kits” sold today are off the shelf components sold as a package and have little to no instructions other than what the component manufacturer included. So the speed controller might be very well documented but the motor might only come with a wiring diagram but no clear instructions. The only real advantage is that the seller is guaranteeing that the components are sized correctly and will work together.

There is one or two EV bike manufactures that will sell you all the parts to make their bike as a kit, but it is for a specific bike, not your Honda. http://www.electricmotorsport.com/store/ems_electric_motorcycles.php

You might want to pick up “Convert it” or “Build your own electric vehicle” http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_ss_b?url=search-alias%3Dstripbooks&field-keywords=convert+it
All of the concepts are the same no matter what size the vehicle is. Oh, and look for EV motorcycle on youtube and also search "Gav's EV conversion".


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## huck369 (Sep 22, 2008)

The kit I have been looking at is the E-tek-RT Kit at
http://www.electricmotorsport.com/store/ems_ev_parts_motors_etek-r.php

What do you think of it?
I'll look into those links you posted too...


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## TX_Dj (Jul 25, 2008)

Like Poly said, consider the fact that just because a bunch of off-the-shelf components are sold as a kit usually without the how-to on putting it together to make it work.

Also, looking at that website, those "kits" don't include everything you will need and don't appear to be priced much differently than if you bought those parts separately.

Reading a book like the two that were suggested will give you the know-how of what each component is, and how they all work together, and will also advise you on exactly what is missing from your "kit".

For example, your "kit" doesn't include batteries, charger, mounting hardware, sprockets, chain, DC/DC converter (if desired), and probably a few more odds and ends.


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## huck369 (Sep 22, 2008)

Lexus said:


> Yeah that is the EtekR Kit that I will be using for my Cheetah (Mountain bike, Like this http://www.evalbum.com/615) ...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Why?
The E-Tec RT is the system they use on the EV Motorcycle they sell...

And I know the kit doesn't come with everything, but I can sorce the batteries locally, and I work at a metal fab shop, so building custom mounts for the motor and batteries won't be an issue.

But since I have no knowledge pertaining to electricity, I'd prefer to have a kit or to put it bluntly, I need to be _told_ what will work together, and I figure a kit will acomplish that, without having to ask 100 questions and make everyone sick of me asking....


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## huck369 (Sep 22, 2008)

Lexus said:


> OK they have changed their Bikes .... before they were running the AC unit in them... I did not know they changed to a DC Set up.
> 
> 
> I would go with the AC System myself ....


hmmm...

72 volt DC $1200
72 Volt AC $3200

I think I'll be doing the DC conversion for now, as my budget for this project won't get the AC stuff
As my first venture into EV's, I want to keep the costs down, but if anyone wants to donate the difference, I'd be all over it 

Anyone got a short answer on why AC is superior to DC?


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## TX_Dj (Jul 25, 2008)

huck369 said:


> As my first venture into EV's, I want to keep the costs down, but if anyone wants to donate the difference, I'd be all over it


I can't express how much I share that sentiment. In all areas of life, when someone tells me that I shouldn't use what makes sense to me on my budget, but instead should use something that costs vastly more, I always invite them to make up the difference in my budget. 



> Anyone got a short answer on why AC is superior to DC?


Efficiency in the AC systems is higher. Less power lost to heat, more power put to the road, lower Wh/mile, better range.

Typically they require much higher voltages as well. There's a reason why our homes are powered by AC instead of DC... because you can easily transform the voltage of AC, and the overhead lines carry low amps but extremely high voltages, which is then transformed down to the voltage we use in our homes.

I'm a big fan of DC traction applications, partly due to the cost, but if I were sufficiently wealthy, I'd be building my S10 as an AC Drive with nearly a ton of LiFePO4 batteries.... but I'm not, so it'll be DC w/ Lead Acid. 

I really can relate to what you're saying about wanting to get the kits. Seriously, go buy a copy of Bob Brant's "Build Your Own Electric Vehicle" and/or Micheal Brown's "Convert It!" books. They have more information contained within than any "kit" to convert your vehicle has. A "kit" may give you most of what you need, but if you read those books and learn more about those parts and how they fit or don't fit your needs, you may learn that buying the kit could cost you more money in the long run.

Also, call KTA Services or EV Parts or CanEV or any of the other big long-time EV suppliers and tell them what you're trying to accomplish, and see if they will spec out a "custom kit" with *all* the pieces you need, matched to your requirements. "Wiring kit", as implied by the link you gave, may not be all-inclusive. Does it include battery terminals, motor/controller lugs, insulating caps for all the above, heat shrink, crimper, the RIGHT gauge wire, etc? They don't really say. The suppliers above would be able to tell you exactly what you need, exactly how many of each piece, where they get used in the system, and would probably even be willing to provide proper wiring diagrams specific to your setup.


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## zig06 (Aug 3, 2008)

I personally believe that a kit is the better way to go, for anyone just starting out. It's easy to buy the wrong motor, controller, throttle and or power wires. Also, if you buy a kit and there's a problem, who ever you choose to buy from will - by default - be your source for knowledge.

After you get that project completed and working then you could strike out on your own, because then you will have a good (or better) idea of what needs to be done.

AC motors provide a wider working range of power and seem to be more efficient. And as you can see, they are also significantly more expensive. You could run 2 E-tek-RT's for the cost of one AC system....


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## huck369 (Sep 22, 2008)

Thanks DJ,
I do need to check out those books, though studing is not my strong side, I'm one of those that looks at the instructioins as a "last resort"...but I should bite to bullet on this project, as I really know nothing about what I'm about to undertake.

In my head, it doesn't look too complicated, mount the motor, and controller, along with the batteries, and wire them up..actually must less complicated than rebuilding a ICE (which I have done several times) but know what gauge wiring, and what motor works with what controller is where I'm ignorant.

This is to be my "Winter Project" so I suppose a trip to the book story should be in my plans...


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## huck369 (Sep 22, 2008)

zig06 said:


> I personally believe that a kit is the better way to go, for anyone just starting out. It's easy to buy the wrong motor, controller, throttle and or power wires. Also, if you buy a kit and there's a problem, who ever you choose to buy from will - by default - be your source for knowledge.
> 
> After you get that project completed and working then you could strike out on your own, because then you will have a good (or better) idea of what needs to be done.
> 
> AC motors provide a wider working range of power and seem to be more efficient. And as you can see, they are also significantly more expensive. You could run 2 E-tek-RT's for the cost of one AC system....


 
This was my train of thought for sure....


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## TX_Dj (Jul 25, 2008)

Huck,

If you want a simple an inexpensive way of learning the technology, you can usually find used scooters on craigslist for cheap-to-free. The scooters I'm talking about are like my XTR-SE:










I see scooters similar to this available for as cheap as $10... Parents buy them for the kids, the kids abuse them until the batteries are toast, the parents know nothing about it and will dispose of it or give it away cheap rather than spend the money for new batteries.

I'm currently in the process of converting mine from its stock 24v 20A system to a 36v 30A system. Essentially what I'm doing is "re-converting" it by gutting all the powertrain components and replacing them with much beefier ones.

All in all, it will cost me about $500 for everything I'm doing, not including the cost of the scooter (I bought mine new a few years ago, so I'm not counting that.) but it doesn't have to be so costly.

These systems are very easy to understand, typically using a very basic PWM controller and a permanent magnet motor. It could be a more cost effective means of proving you're able to do this than what you've been talking about.

Granted, it's not street legal (though some states/cities permit them on streets with less than 30-35 mph limits) but I'm estimating about 20-25 mph top speed, and enhanced range over stock, plus the ability to do burnouts and wheelies. 

Just a suggestion. Chances are it would be difficult to resell it after you're done, but it makes for a fun diversion... and people love playing with them when you take it with you to your local EV club meetings.


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## huck369 (Sep 22, 2008)

Good ideal....but I want something that will be usefull to me for getting back and forth from work, as we don't have any EV groups around my parts.


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## TX_Dj (Jul 25, 2008)

Certainly not right for everyone... but I bought that scooter when I lived outside of town and commuted downtown every day. Rode it 2 miles to the train, rode the train 20 miles, rode it 3 miles to the office.


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## huck369 (Sep 22, 2008)

TX_Dj said:


> Certainly not right for everyone... but I bought that scooter when I lived outside of town and commuted downtown every day. Rode it 2 miles to the train, rode the train 20 miles, rode it 3 miles to the office.


We don't have any public transportation around here, so I have to commute all the way to work each day...but it's only about 11 miles one way.


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## TX_Dj (Jul 25, 2008)

I'm expecting ~12 miles range to 80% DOD on this guy when I'm done. None the less, Texas Law won't let me ride it on streets with speed limits over 30-35 mph (can't remember which)... if I were to pick a route that was legal to ride it to work, it would add 3-5 miles. Considering work is 12.5 miles from the house, that's a no-go.

Fun project though. Good luck with yours, and keep us updated with your progress!


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## huck369 (Sep 22, 2008)

I've found some batteries locally, that are 12 volt 35AH batteries, I don't have all the specs, but they are about the size of a lawn mower battery.
They told me they were made for electric wheel chairs.

So if I use 6 of these to get my 72 volts what kind of range do you think I can get if it's gearded to run 65 mph?

I'm hoping for 30 miles range.....


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## TX_Dj (Jul 25, 2008)

All depends on the Wh/mi efficiency of the vehicle, and how much Peukert is going to affect your capacity. I'm assuming the 35 Ah rating is at the 20-hour rate.

That works out to 2.5 kWh ... 12 * 35 * 6 = 2520.

If Peukert were no factor, and you took that to 80%, you'd need about 70 Wh/mi efficiency to get 30 miles on that.

Power-sonic makes a 55 Ah 12v that is 33 Ah at the 1-hour rate so that's 12 * 33 * 6 = ~2400 Wh. You'd need about 65 Wh/mi to reach 30 miles on that setup at 80% DOD, give or take.

Still seems quite low, but it depends on your bike and your riding style.


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## huck369 (Sep 22, 2008)

TX_Dj said:


> All depends on the Wh/mi efficiency of the vehicle, and how much Peukert is going to affect your capacity. I'm assuming the 35 Ah rating is at the 20-hour rate.
> 
> That works out to 2.5 kWh ... 12 * 35 * 6 = 2520.
> 
> ...


 
...so...is that a maybe...

keep in mind I know nothing about electricity.....at least not yet...


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