# UPS Batteries Used in EV?



## shoup (Feb 10, 2009)

Has anyone used batteries made for UPS battery backup systems in EVs? I have been able to find a few people selling used UPS battery packs locally that may be a good option. Here is a link to the specs:

http://www.cdstandbypower.com/product/battery/vrla/pdf/12_1029.pdf
http://www.cdpowercom.com/product/battery/vrla/pdf/12_370.pdf

I was looking at the UPS12-300MR and UPS12-370MR in particular. The batteries are a few years old, but were maintained with a float charger over the life of the pack. Power was only drawn from the batteries occasionally when the power went out. 

My car is a E30 BMW that I am going to be running at 156V. My motor is a Warp9 with a Logisystems 156V/1000A controller.


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## TonyDigital (Oct 28, 2009)

shoup said:


> Has anyone used batteries made for UPS battery backup systems in EVs? I have been able to find a few people selling used UPS battery packs locally that may be a good option. Here is a link to the specs:
> 
> http://www.cdstandbypower.com/product/battery/vrla/pdf/12_1029.pdf
> http://www.cdpowercom.com/product/battery/vrla/pdf/12_370.pdf
> ...



Hey,


I deal with UPS batteries all the time and I would highly discourage you from buying used batteries. They might have been maintained and they might have been treated well, but you're not going to get good performance out of them.

Firstly, I doubt the person is telling you the truth in regards to how the batteries were treated. Perhaps they forgot that the batteries have been deep discharged 732 times. Also, you don't know the kind of load and rate that they were discharged with. Buying used batteries is like buying an empty gas tank, you'll be running on fumes.

Secondly, batteries expire over time. Most good quality SLA batteries have a life time of 3-5 years. With different levels of use the life time fluctuates. More abuse, less life. Due to high lead prices of a year ago, manufacturers started manufacturing 1 year life span batteries. You definitely don't want to buy those new or used.

I would recommend looking hard for a great deal on new SLA batteries. Not only new but fresh, 3 months from manufacture. A lot of vendors carry a large stock of batteries which they can't sell fast, in turn, you end up buying a battery that's already a year old.


Tony


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## Sunking (Aug 10, 2009)

I am a telecom power engineer I would also discourage you from using UPS or any other telecom type stationary batteries because they are designed for standby emergency service and not daily deep discharges. They basically only have 150 to 300 cycle life or 5 to 10 years whichever comes first.


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## shoup (Feb 10, 2009)

Thank you both for your input. I will stay away from the UPS battery backup batteries and used batteries in general.


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## TonyDigital (Oct 28, 2009)

shoup said:


> Thank you both for your input. I will stay away from the UPS battery backup batteries and used batteries in general.



No problem at all, I am glad you brought it up before going out and buying used batteries and getting ripped off. I know there are a lot of guys on the market who claim to be selling "good quality" or "lightly used" batteries or even "refurbished" batteries. Unfortunately all of those things are simply BS. I know of a few friends and colleagues who fell for it and basically threw their money away. 


Good luck,
T


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## 300zxev (Dec 5, 2008)

I might be able to provide some actual data on this request when my controller arrives in about a month.

I WILL be using used recycled SLA batteries in my 300ZX conversion ... (at least initially) ... About 450kg of them.

Mine were 8Ah units that were annually replaced whether they reported a fault or not. I have charged and load tested them and found that 50% appear to be fully functional ...

I do realise the risks involved with these units becoming unbalanced and failing due to their different ages but to get a fully functional 156V 100Ah pack for $500 ... ... I couldn't go past it ... 

To see my madness ... Check here ... 300zxev.blogspot.com


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## TonyDigital (Oct 28, 2009)

300zxev said:


> I might be able to provide some actual data on this request when my controller arrives in about a month.
> 
> I WILL be using used recycled SLA batteries in my 300ZX conversion ... (at least initially) ... About 450kg of them.
> 
> ...



If the batteries are one year old and you pick out the ones that can sustain a load, you might be able to get away with it for a bit. Again, it's hard to say because you don't know exactly what kind of abuse they took. If they're a good quality battery, a year shouldn't be the end of the world for them. They could have some life left in them still.

How many batteries are you going to use? Are you going to use 200pcs? Are you testing each one? How are you load testing them? If you don't mind sharing, I would love to hear the process.




T


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## 300zxev (Dec 5, 2008)

Since I secured the batteries for free ... (the $500 is what it cost to build them into crates) ... I'm not looking to get any more than a year out of them ... ... I'll have the odd spare too if i'm noticing individual packs dropping more than others. 

156 good units was what I was after ... 13 crates of 12 batteries.

I'm no expert when it comes to testing these batteries ...

But I have a SLA charger which i've used on each one and if they complete the charging sequence to 14.4V without exhibiting much rise in temperature, I regarded them as charged.

Then I hooked up a 2 amp load to each unit to monitor the voltage drop ... if the voltage didn't drop by much , I deemed them good. 

Then I checked them later with a Voltmeter ... I think I only kept the ones that stayed at or above 13V with no load.

Charging, load testing and voltage testing at the end were all done with about a 8 Hour resting break in between ... ... 
It was an all amateur production line in my office for a couple of months.


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## TonyDigital (Oct 28, 2009)

300zxev said:


> Since I secured the batteries for free ... (the $500 is what it cost to build them into crates) ... I'm not looking to get any more than a year out of them ... ... I'll have the odd spare too if i'm noticing individual packs dropping more than others.
> 
> 156 good units was what I was after ... 13 crates of 12 batteries.
> 
> ...



That is a lot of work! I have to say I agree with you on the testing methods. Anything that wouldn't stay at 13V I would toss out as well. If they hold charge, hopefully they will be able to perform for quite some time. As long as you don't deep discharge them too much they should work well. The SLA's don't like to be deep discharged too much, kills the life time.


T


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## DIYguy (Sep 18, 2008)

Don't be so quick to condemn this option. I know someone who is running them and I also bought some. I haven't run them yet, but will. The cost was low and the application they were in was a 30 second discharge twice yearly. They do have a calendar life but it is rated at 10 years. They only cost me $50 each. The other chap using them had one die, and the supplier replaced it no charge. They were all load tested prior to purchase. they are 135 or 140 Ah VRLA. Like most things, it depends on the details of use. Service temperature is a very important issue in determining the life left in these bats. If they were maintained properly in an environmentally controlled space, it does make a significant difference on the calendar life expectation. They don't like high temp storage/service. AGM's do have a number of benefits over floodies although energy density is not one of them. Better low temp performance, better peukerts effect and durability are a few benefits. The low resistance also means better performance ...as in ability to dump high amounts of current quickly. 

I don't expect them to last 3 years... but for what I paid... I like it.


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## TonyDigital (Oct 28, 2009)

DIYguy said:


> Don't be so quick to condemn this option. I know someone who is running them and I also bought some. I haven't run them yet, but will. The cost was low and the application they were in was a 30 second discharge twice yearly. They do have a calendar life but it is rated at 10 years. They only cost me $50 each. The other chap using them had one die, and the supplier replaced it no charge. They were all load tested prior to purchase. they are 135 or 140 Ah VRLA. Like most things, it depends on the details of use. Service temperature is a very important issue in determining the life left in these bats. If they were maintained properly in an environmentally controlled space, it does make a significant difference on the calendar life expectation. They don't like high temp storage/service. AGM's do have a number of benefits over floodies although energy density is not one of them. Better low temp performance, better peukerts effect and durability are a few benefits. The low resistance also means better performance ...as in ability to dump high amounts of current quickly.
> 
> I don't expect them to last 3 years... but for what I paid... I like it.




I am in favor of what you describe above. Personally, I really like the 75ah or bigger batteries. When they work, they work great. They're very versatile. I definitely like them much more than car batteries. I know of a few people who use them successfully. If they work for you, good for you. Hope they serve you for a very long time!



T


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## bjnkm (Sep 24, 2009)

I am using 26 Deka Unigy 12AVR-75 batteries in my 97 S10 Electric truck. (Factory built, not a conversion). I put Zener diode regs on each one clamping voltage at 13.6 Volts. I had the spec sheet on these before I purchased them but there was more info available that I didn't see. If I had known the characteristics of these batteries, I probably would not have bought them. I didn't know they don't like temperatures above 95 degrees, or high current charging. However, they are in and working. So far, I have only charged with a small, 110 volt, "convenience" charger. It takes 6 times longer to charge than the 220 charger, but it may be better for my batteries. I paid $145 each for these batteries and I hope it wasn't a mistake. Time will tell.


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## TonyDigital (Oct 28, 2009)

bjnkm said:


> I am using 26 Deka Unigy 12AVR-75 batteries in my 97 S10 Electric truck. (Factory built, not a conversion). I put Zener diode regs on each one clamping voltage at 13.6 Volts. I had the spec sheet on these before I purchased them but there was more info available that I didn't see. If I had known the characteristics of these batteries, I probably would not have bought them. I didn't know they don't like temperatures above 95 degrees, or high current charging. However, they are in and working. So far, I have only charged with a small, 110 volt, "convenience" charger. It takes 6 times longer to charge than the 220 charger, but it may be better for my batteries. I paid $145 each for these batteries and I hope it wasn't a mistake. Time will tell.



With how many AMPS does the convenience charge the batteries? Is it a 10A charger? Do you charge the batteries individually or as a battery bank? It's an interesting approach, how long have you had the batteries and has the run time been fluctuating?


Sorry for the 101 questions, just curious!


Thanks!


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## bjnkm (Sep 24, 2009)

TonyDigital said:


> With how many AMPS does the convenience charge the batteries? Is it a 10A charger? Do you charge the batteries individually or as a battery bank? It's an interesting approach, how long have you had the batteries and has the run time been fluctuating?
> 
> 
> Sorry for the 101 questions, just curious!
> ...


Not sure of the charging amps, but it's low. I drive 40 miles and it takes 10 hours to recharge. My range should be over 100 miles, but I've only gone about 50, at the most, with my SOC gauge above 5/8.
I charge as a 312 volt pack. The batteries were made in Sept.09, installed mid October. Only 150 miles on the pack. My run time is going up on my SOC gauge. I've been told the computer has to learn my pack. My first trip out the gauge dropped very fast. Now it's more realistic.
My charger is an inductive paddle charger that actually puts AC in and the controller converts to DC and charges the batteries.


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## TonyDigital (Oct 28, 2009)

bjnkm said:


> Not sure of the charging amps, but it's low. I drive 40 miles and it takes 10 hours to recharge. My range should be over 100 miles, but I've only gone about 50, at the most, with my SOC gauge above 5/8.
> I charge as a 312 volt pack. The batteries were made in Sept.09, installed mid October. Only 150 miles on the pack. My run time is going up on my SOC gauge. I've been told the computer has to learn my pack. My first trip out the gauge dropped very fast. Now it's more realistic.
> My charger is an inductive paddle charger that actually puts AC in and the controller converts to DC and charges the batteries.




So the batteries are pretty much brand new and should have long life time left. They're pretty big batteries so I am not surprised that trickle charging them takes 10 hours. I wonder if there is a way to split the load and charge them in half the time, or increase the amperage of charging a bit. High amperage charging isn't good for the batteries but I am sure there's a way to speed that up. 


Have you taken the batteries to a very low level yet?


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## bjnkm (Sep 24, 2009)

I have not discharged much below half on my SOC gauge. But like I say, that gauge is not very accurate. My pack voltage right now is 320 and the gauge is just below half. (I have an issue with a cooling fan switch that is keeping me from charging right now). If I understand battery terminology correctly, a 12 volt battery will read 12 volts when it is half discharged. My pack would be half discharged at 312.
I had a 220 volt charger but something inside shorted out before I could try it. A friend is sending me another one but I guess I shouldn't even try it.


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## DIYguy (Sep 18, 2008)

bjnkm said:


> I have not discharged much below half on my SOC gauge. But like I say, that gauge is not very accurate. My pack voltage right now is 320 and the gauge is just below half. (I have an issue with a cooling fan switch that is keeping me from charging right now). If I understand battery terminology correctly, a 12 volt battery will read 12 volts when it is half discharged. My pack would be half discharged at 312.
> I had a 220 volt charger but something inside shorted out before I could try it. A friend is sending me another one but I guess I shouldn't even try it.


I think your batteries are AGM's...so, they should be able to take higher current during bulk charge than floodies. Do you have the spec on bulk charge current limit? What is the current limit of your 230 volt charger? If it is a decent charger... you should be able to tollerate 30 amps or so... so unless it's more than a 6 kw charger... you should be ok.


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## bjnkm (Sep 24, 2009)

When I was researching batteries, this is all I had, http://www.247technology.com/equipment/specs/12AVR75%20and%20100.pdf and yes, they are AGMs.
Then, a guy in Florida with the same kind of truck in need of batteries found this. http://www.sure-power.com/live/product/deka_battery/unigyI/unigy1_oper_install.pdf
It says that these batteries are not intended to be used in temperatures above 95 degrees. My battery compartment is climate controlled, but I'm not sure those temps could always be maintained. My 220 volt charger is a 6 KW paddle charger. It is used on the EV1, S10 Electric and the Toyota Rav4 EV.

​


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## DIYguy (Sep 18, 2008)

bjnkm said:


> When I was researching batteries, this is all I had, http://www.247technology.com/equipment/specs/12AVR75%20and%20100.pdf and yes, they are AGMs.
> Then, a guy in Florida with the same kind of truck in need of batteries found this. http://www.sure-power.com/live/product/deka_battery/unigyI/unigy1_oper_install.pdf
> It says that these batteries are not intended to be used in temperatures above 95 degrees. My battery compartment is climate controlled, but I'm not sure those temps could always be maintained. My 220 volt charger is a 6 KW paddle charger. It is used on the EV1, S10 Electric and the Toyota Rav4 EV.


All AGM batteries do not tolerate high temps well...that is to say, it shortens their calendar life. A 95F environment will effectively cut the battery life in half. Also the float charge voltage must be reduced. Excessive float charge voltage will cause the battery to vent, losing precious electolyte and shortening the life even further. My opinion would be that your 220 volt, 6kw charger will not damage the battery during bulk charge due to current...but you need to know what kind of battery the charger was designed to charge. The algorithm needs to match the AGM chemistry. AGM charge profile is very close to flooded, you just need to watch the float voltage mainly. You have the regulators I recall, so, I think you are good to go!


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## bjnkm (Sep 24, 2009)

DIYguy said:


> I think your batteries are AGM's...so, they should be able to take higher current during bulk charge than floodies. Do you have the spec on bulk charge current limit? What is the current limit of your 230 volt charger? If it is a decent charger... you should be able to tollerate 30 amps or so... so unless it's more than a 6 kw charger... you should be ok.


I really hope you're right. However, these chargers are not stand alone chargers that could be used on other EVs. They send AC into an inductive receptacle and the controller in the truck converts the AC to DC for charging. The charger communicates with the BPCM, (Battery Pack Control Module) through an RF signal in the paddle. The brains of the charger are in the BPCM mounted in the battery box. The engineers had a field day designing this thing. It senses each battery voltage and will send a leveling charge to the entire pack, if it sees a certain voltage difference. That leveling voltage can exceed 16 volts per battery. It monitors 6 temp sensors in the pack and will command the A/C on to cool the pack. If the temp is still high, the BPCM will reduce the charge rate. All sounds good if that target temp is around 95 degrees or less. Even if the batteries can handle higher current, I may have to find a way to shut down charging when the pack reaches 13.5 volts per battery, or 351 volts total pack voltage. The original battery for this truck was a Panasonic EC-EV 1260. It was an unbelievable battery that could take these voltages. It is actually still available because it is used in the Silverado Hybrid, which uses 3 of them. GM will not sell them for any purpose other than warranty replacement in the Silverado. When I placed an order for 26 of them, someone in GM stopped my order and recalled it. They simply do not want this truck on the road. I hear it's a liability issue.


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## bjnkm (Sep 24, 2009)

I'm still not sure that the zener regs are protecting my batteries. The zener clamping voltage is 13.6 volts, but when it's at the end of a charge cycle, I have seen 15 volts on the terminals. It's hard to believe that battery isn't seeing 15 volts. There is no evidence of venting or smell of hydrogen gas, and as soon as the paddle is pulled on the charger, the battery reads 13.6 volts. I have heard that components in a parallel circuit see the same voltage, and I've also heard that the 15 volts I see is the "combination" of the reg and battery and not to worry about it.


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## DIYguy (Sep 18, 2008)

bjnkm said:


> The original battery for this truck was a Panasonic EC-EV 1260. It was an unbelievable battery that could take these voltages. It is actually still available because it is used in the Silverado Hybrid, which uses 3 of them. GM will not sell them for any purpose other than warranty replacement in the Silverado. When I placed an order for 26 of them, someone in GM stopped my order and recalled it. They simply do not want this truck on the road. I hear it's a liability issue.


The PAnasonic battery used in the Silverado hybrid is not the same battery you are referring to. Yes, it is still a Panasonic..but it is a dummied down version of the EC-EV1260. I think it is an EC-FV1260 which will not perform like the original for BEV applications. You think you are lucky GM didn't sell u them...lol


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## bjnkm (Sep 24, 2009)

DIYguy said:


> The PAnasonic battery used in the Silverado hybrid is not the same battery you are referring to. Yes, it is still a Panasonic..but it is a dummied down version of the EC-EV1260. I think it is an EC-FV1260 which will not perform like the original for BEV applications. You think you are lucky GM didn't sell u them...lol


 Correct. It does, however, drop right in and handle the the original charging profile. Not sure about the "FV", but the EV was rated at 60 AH, but in reality, started at 48 AH and after several cycles, maxed out at 52 AH. 
CSB has a battery line, (EVX), that is made for Electric vehicles. If I had it to do over again, (or if these batteries give up), I would go with the EVX 12520. $100 each and they would fit in the box with just a little modification.


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## bjnkm (Sep 24, 2009)

DIYguy said:


> I think your batteries are AGM's...so, they should be able to take higher current during bulk charge than floodies. Do you have the spec on bulk charge current limit? What is the current limit of your 230 volt charger? If it is a decent charger... you should be able to tollerate 30 amps or so... so unless it's more than a 6 kw charger... you should be ok.


A guy a lot more familiar with these chargers told me the big charger will put out about 16 amps at most. Sounds like I should be OK. 
Thanks,
Kevin


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