# Mira-Inboard Hub Motors



## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

*Mira-Master of REGEN*

Index:
page 27: single motor

This project was started as somewhere to put the 320 LifeTech cells I originally bought for the R1 but have been sitting in storage for over 2 years hence the urgency.
Bought for $560 on Ebay the 92 Mira was driven up from Victoria without plates and registered here in NSW. Its got 230,000km on the clock, does 0-100 in 23 seconds and weighes 620kg 61% forward bias.
The 660cc FI 3 cyl engine AND gearbox are coming out soon and 2 QS 8kW hub motors are going inboard where the diff used to be and connected directly to the drive shafts. No belts, chains differentials or gears.
I will have to get 2 controllers though so thats another $2k. The motors cost $1500 Fedexed direct from China.


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

Have already pulled one of the motors apart so see how its designed and where I can save some room to bring them closer together in the engine bay.
The motor shafts will be clamped in a block that is mounted to a new crossmember so they have to be shortened. I want the block to be about 100mm long.
The disc brake flange has already been machined off saving 25mm per motor.


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## hmincr (Jan 20, 2012)

This is going to be interesting to watch.


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## tylerwatts (Feb 9, 2012)

Very good looking project Rip! Can't wait to see you let rip in it


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

Removed 3kg of offending steel from the OD of the rotor back iron.
The permanent magnetic field was poking through the original back iron.
Also reducing the OD of the motor will make it easier to fit in close to the steering rack










got a lump of 75mm square bar from a friend and have bored a 36mm hole
in an appropriate position. This will have pinch bolts and torque lock bolts going into it soon.


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## genawin (Oct 1, 2008)

What made you choose this motor , do you have a link to it , why not use it in wheel and what controllers have you chosen (bet its Kelly - i know you like them).


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## iti_uk (Oct 24, 2011)

Nice project, I'll be keeping an eye on this. 

When you say that the permanent magnet field was "poking through the original back iron", won't machining the material from the OD of the back iron make things worse?

Have toyed with the idea of doing something very similar with the slightly larger Seat Arosa.

Chris


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## poprock (Apr 29, 2010)

The motors appear to be 320dia. Will you need to relieve the firewall to fit them? I am assuming that the tranny is similar to my Sirion, which has very little space between the drive shafts & the rack& pinion??


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

These were the biggest hub motors I could find
http://www.hs-escooter.com/sdp/1012...Hub_Motor_single_shaft_hub_motor_Electri.html
and for a very good price.
They are 305mm diameter stock and I machined them down to 291mm.

Sure theres less back iron there now but I just though there was too much mass there. Not very scientific I know.

They are inboard because its too difficult and expensive to redesign the whole front suspension brakes and steering. Also keeps unsprung weight down.

Probably go with 144v 400 amp Kellys.
They wont go near the fire wall cause the steering rack is there.
the shafts will have to come forward a bit so the rotors can stay far enough away from the rack

Just got an inquiry for the ICE. This guy wants to convert his 2 door carb Mira over to fuel injection but Ive got an offer for him.
Going to just swap the whole car over cause I really wanted a 2 door as they are lighter and shorter.
Hope his is in good nick


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## Vitkur (Oct 10, 2008)

So, you are using two hub motors to create direct drive for a FWD car?

How will you imitate the diff's function?


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

Vitkur said:


> So, you are using two hub motors to create direct drive for a FWD car? How will you imitate the diff's function?


I have to use 2 identical controllers and connect them stand alone.
ie use each motors hall sensor for that controller only. No sharing of hall sensors like I have in my R1 race bike (1 hall / 2 controllers).
The DC + & - will be parallel from a common source.


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## PowerSurge (Jan 24, 2013)

RIPPERTON said:


> I have to use 2 identical controllers and connect them stand alone.
> ie use each motors hall sensor for that controller only. No sharing of hall sensors like I have in my R1 race bike (1 hall / 2 controllers).
> The DC + & - will be parallel from a common source.


I think he's asking how you plan to compensate for the different wheel speeds while turning using direct drive motors. If you have to controllers running the wheels at the same speeds on turns, you'll be putting a lot of stress on the motor/axle connector because you'll be either pulling or pushing one wheel at a different speed than the controller wants.


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## poprock (Apr 29, 2010)

Depending on the amount that you move the centre diff point of the drive shafts forward, it will be as if both axles are in a permanent turning position at the wheel hub leading to premature CV joint wear. Someone experienced in this field may correct me.


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

PowerSurge said:


> I think he's asking how you plan to compensate for the different wheel speeds while turning using direct drive motors. If you have to controllers running the wheels at the same speeds on turns, you'll be putting a lot of stress on the motor/axle connector because you'll be either pulling or pushing one wheel at a different speed than the controller wants.


I dont plan to do anything to compensate, the motors will self compensate but the inside motor will have more load, it will just turn slower.
I assume you understand there is no mechanical connection between the 2 shafts / rotors


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

poprock1 said:


> Depending on the amount that you move the centre diff point of the drive shafts forward, it will be as if both axles are in a permanent turning position at the wheel hub leading to premature CV joint wear. Someone experienced in this field may correct me.


The shaft centers wont have to move forward very much but they may have to move upward a bit so the rotors have enough ground clearance.
Overall they may be more cv joint wear.
Eventually this system would be more ideal for a VW beetle as there is no steering on the drive wheels.
But I need to find out if this idea will work on a FWD. There may be torque steer issues and regen issues ie brake steer.


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## poprock (Apr 29, 2010)

RIPPERTON said:


> The shaft centers wont have to move forward very much but they may have to move upward a bit so the rotors have enough ground clearance.
> Overall they may be more cv joint wear.
> Eventually this system would be more ideal for a VW beetle as there is no steering on the drive wheels.
> But I need to find out if this idea will work on a FWD. There may be torque steer issues and regen issues ie brake steer.


 As a concept it is more suited to a large fwd, but for your initial outlay it's a cheap experiment. I think castor & camber will still be acceptable, with full lock being the only issue.It may restrict the turning circle, but hey! that thing will turn on a 5c piece anyway. I will be interested in your progress.


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## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

> Depending on the amount that you move the centre diff point of the drive shafts forward, it will be as if both axles are in a permanent turning position at the wheel hub leading to premature CV joint wear. Someone experienced in this field may correct me.


CV's and U-joints do not like to operate perfectly straight as they need some movement to wipe lubrication and stay lubed. Using a gravity protractor, measure the box angle before and the shaft angle after the u-joint. Then subtract. A minimum of 3 degrees a a maximum of 7 degrees difference is the range for u-joints. CV's will stand a tad more angle. It would take a ton of angle to cause accelerated wear.





> Also keeps unsprung weight down.


If these were true hub motors they would be unsprung weight. But if these are inboard and use half shafts, they are sprung weight.


This is a very nice installation. Can't wait to hear how it drives. 

Miz


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## genawin (Oct 1, 2008)

You said " The motors cost $1500 Fedexed direct from China" could you break the invoice down to show us taxes and shipping please.
The website is showing CNY 585 ?


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

genawin said:


> You said " The motors cost $1500 Fedexed direct from China" could you break the invoice down to show us taxes and shipping please.
> The website is showing CNY 585 ?


Just Email Robert Chen
*[email protected]

*I didnt pay import duties because I had the total written up for less than $1000 AUD


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

Engine out took about 5 hours. sold the lot for $375 to a kid who wants to upgrade his carb 4 speed that blew a head gasket.


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## Batterypoweredtoad (Feb 5, 2008)

Does using a driver side length axle on each side give you enough room to mount both motors without custom axles?


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

Batterypoweredtoad said:


> Does using a driver side length axle on each side give you enough room to mount both motors without custom axles?


Dont forget down under we drive on the left side so the drivers side shaft is the long one but I will probably have to change the length of both shafts.
The short one is actually quite close to being the right length.


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

Well the Mira project has gone completely batshit mad.
Using the clamp block will set the hubs too far apart leaving the CV bolt
faces 350mm apart and the shafts have to angle so far forward that they will damage themselves when the steering is turned full lock.
So the hubs have to be redesigned into a single rotor flange stub axle and if Im going to do that I will also take the opportunity to water cool.
The original shaft, stator hub and inner rotor flange will be removed and a new backing flange, stub axle, hub rotor and water cooling jackets fabricated. Will use the same inner bearing, outer rotor flange, slightly larger outer bearing and the 2 new backing flanges will be bolted together back to back bringing the CV bolt faces 150mm closer together for a total of 200mm.
Im happy its turned out this way because its where this project was heading eventually anyway.


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## Agust Sigurdsson (Oct 25, 2009)

Interesting project.
The chinese page you referred to in earlier post is rather sparse on technical info, I could only find kW, Voltage, RPM and weight there.

Do you have any other trivia for the motor such as starting torque etc ?


Agust


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## Daanii (Sep 3, 2009)

Great project. Thanks for sharing all the pictures. 

Do you think you will have enough torque with no reduction? I know you have a light car, and a total of at least 16 kilowatts worth of power (I assume that the motors can deliver 2 or 3 times that at a maximum). Still, I wonder if you will have enough torque to, for example, start from a stop on a hill.


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

Daanii said:


> Do you think you will have enough torque with no reduction?


Probably not, these are a 10 turn winding and eventually I could rewind them to 20 turns but I dont really know what its going to be like on 10 turns.

good thing is these are easy to rewind unlike the axial gap stators



> Do you have any other trivia for the motor such as starting torque etc


email them and ask


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## poprock (Apr 29, 2010)

Hi Rip; Please do NOT view this as "I told you so. " In my previous post I mentioned about mis-alignment of the drive shafts. I should have given the reason why I raised this issue. When I first got the Sirion driveable I noticed that my old fla's lost power more on one full lock than the other. I had positioned the motor to what looked straight by my one good eye. However, as the pics show, what I have now done is to align the motor shaft with the socket hole, (which is used to turn the motor for servicing), in the drivers side subframe. In the second pic the motor appears to be tilted to the drivers side, but as it is the original transmission mounting point it must be close to factory. You could possibly use this hole (if it is on the Mira? ) and a parallel measurement of the other subframe to recover alignment.


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

Yes pop there is a crankshaft hole in the chassis rail in the Mira but wont be able to use it cause I dont have anything that lines up with the crankshaft any more.
I only have a theoretical differential center line that the inner CV joints should line up with but they wont.
I can lower the steering rack in its mountings to get a bit more room.


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

RIPPERTON said:


> I can lower the steering rack in its mountings to get a bit more room.


Careful here - depending on your geometry you could introduce bump steer - which is awful!

Some cars are incredibly sensitive to rack height, early lotuses had to have their racks shimmed to achieve the correct height

The CV joint center line in contrast is very insensitive - I moved mine by over 30mm


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## genawin (Oct 1, 2008)

I know you were looking at the Kelly motors before you deciding on the Hongshan
_"Im doing feasabilty on running 2x 7kW Kelly motors inboard in my Diahatsu Mira 650kg."_

Robert has sent me this Open as a Google spreadsheet for the hub motor and it's identical to the Kellys Download Motor Performance Curve(Test with 72V Battery)accept Kelly call it a 7kw - do you think Hongshan supply Kelly ?
The peak torque appears to be 78Nm and as we know the standard ME0913 is 90Nm peak stall torque and i found it needed a 4 : 1 ratio to push me and my 200 kilo bike.
I asked robert for peak stall torque figures but he just refered me back to the above spreadsheet which appears to be various loads in the 1100 - 1300 rmp range ?
Well done for diving in and i hope it works out - i'm watching with interest.


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

Water cooled Stub axle conversion 3D model is complete and Ive got 185.7mm between CV bolt faces. 14mm less than I thought.
Also got some 127mm diameter 7075T6 solid round from Thyssen Krupp for $55 to make the rotor hubs. All systems go 
Also found a 144v 200A Kelly lying around that was for a Posty bike conversion which has been shelved so will get another one of those to go in the Mira. Have to ask Kelly if that model has been changed or upgraded to make sure I dont get 2 different controllers


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

Rear pack is going together and will be suspended under the car in the fuel tank / muffler cavity by 30x M8 bolts going down through the floor.
some of the cells were shorter than the others. One was 1.7mm shorter and had to be packed out with some washers.
The pack will be 39s 8p and the rear pack is 20s.
Its 3 years almost to the day since I bought these cells and 98% of them showed no leakage at all in that time.


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

projected weight.
Just weighed the rolling chassis.
rear 214.8 kg
front 195.2 kg
total 410 kg

Projected finished weight
rear 286 kg
front 325 kg
total 611 kg
bias 54% front

Original
rear 240kg (full tank)
front 380 kg
total 620
bias 62% front

Theres some stuff I may not have accounted for that will go in the front
but it looks like I will come in about the same weight just with a slightly more rearward weight bias.
Crap....the original motor and gearbox weighed 185kg


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

Heres the front pack going together.
Only 19 cell blocks makes 39 total because the charger will only go to 140v.
If I can tweek another 10v out of the Elcon I can add the 40th block.
At full throttle both controllers will draw only 400 amps even if I have
them set to 100% draw on battery. Thats a maximum of 50 amps per cell.
So the bus bars are 0.6mm thick aluminium that have a cross section of 50mm square between the 2 blocks.



















All the Batrium BMS wiring harness is fitted for Longmon installation at a later date.


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## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

That is a nice looking unit.

Miz


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

mizlplix said:


> That is a nice looking unit.
> Miz


Thanks Miz
this case now has a 6mm polycarb cover panel that will face the 2 hub motors so you can see the cells and BMS working.

Started working on the motors this week, heres the rotor hub.
Note the smaller outer bearing is half exposed so the rotor flange can sit directly on it for better concentricity.


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## kennybobby (Aug 10, 2012)

*Re: cell dimensions and spacing?*

It's always a treat to see what's cooking in the ripperton laboratory...What is the size of those cells, are they the 38123? Also, how are you spacing them--do the cells touch each other on the outer diameter or did you leave an air gap for cooling?


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

*Re: cell dimensions and spacing?*



kennybobby said:


> It's always a treat to see what's cooking in the ripperton laboratory...What is the size of those cells, are they the 38123? Also, how are you spacing them--do the cells touch each other on the outer diameter or did you leave an air gap for cooling?


The buzz is doing something no one has done before.
You would never have caught me sticking a DC motor onto a gearbox with a 30mm thick adapter plate and then only using 2 of the gears 

I think the LifeTechs are 38120 (8Ah) but I spaced them at 40mm centers.
The stagger saved me 100mm in length and gained 20mm in height, it was the only way I could fit that many cells in the fuel tank cavity.
Theres a lot of things you can do if you know your cells wont be getting hot running at 50A max, heat isnt a problem in this app.


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

Doh spline fell off.










Heres the cut down CV mocked into the rotor flange.It will get its own steel flange with 4 holes probably 3 or 4mm thick










Heres the inside of the same rotor flange with the rotor hub mocked in.
The rotor flange shares half of the bearing outer race.


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## tylerwatts (Feb 9, 2012)

Rip, I must have missed a trick but why thw custom rotor hubs? Are the stock ones not strong enough or too heavy or something or are you modding the motors in some way for your installation? I was of the understanding these motors have a bolt on rear flange for mounting and the wheel (drive shaft in your case) goes directly on such that thee must have been a bearing hub in the motor already. 

Really cool build by the way hence my keen interest. I am thinking slightly differently to build my own motors maybe with a custom stator with integral mounts that could be 'chucked' into any small engine bay. Just ideas for now but I am keen to see what performance and range you get from your power store and output of your system.


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

tylerwatts said:


> Rip, I must have missed a trick but why thw custom rotor hubs?



There arent any hubs in the standards motor, only 2 flanges either side of the stator. I need a hub because I now only have 1 flange.


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## tylerwatts (Feb 9, 2012)

Why only 1 flange? It looks like a common axle shaft is going through that block on pg2 which explains somewhat but are you sure one flange is strong enough to maintain the tight clearance needed for the magnets?

Any thoughts to upgrade the magnets like you did on your original bike motor?


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

tylerwatts said:


> Why only 1 flange? It looks like a common axle shaft is going through that block on pg2 which explains somewhat but are you sure one flange is strong enough to maintain the tight clearance needed for the magnets?
> 
> Any thoughts to upgrade the magnets like you did on your original bike motor?


read post 23 on page 3. the block is gone wont work.

Yes I did realize that there could be a tolerance problem but will rely on the stiffness of the original drive side flange for now. Solve that problem when it happens or if it happens.

thicker magnets would be nice but not for this motor, its to experimental.
first have to see if the concept works at all.


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

Had the CNC running all day yesterday and have the water cooled stators assembed but they still need to be machined to interference fit the inside
the stators so they can be cold shrunk for good contact once warm.


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## CrazyAl (May 9, 2011)

RIPPERTON said:


> The shaft centers wont have to move forward very much but they may have to move upward a bit so the rotors have enough ground clearance.
> Overall they may be more cv joint wear.
> Eventually this system would be more ideal for a VW beetle as there is no steering on the drive wheels.
> But I need to find out if this idea will work on a FWD. There may be torque steer issues and regen issues ie brake steer.


What about using pot resistors (that turns with steering column). When the steering wheel is turned, the inner wheel is slowed down compared to the outer wheel. It will involve a lot of calibration, but you can speak to Jon from Catavolt about it as he can articulate how it can be done better than I can (got the idea from him).


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

CrazyAl said:


> When the steering wheel is turned, the inner wheel is slowed down compared to the outer wheel.


I dont need to slow down the inner wheel as much as I dont need to make the sun come up in the morning. It and the inner motor will slow down of its own accord regardless of the fact that it is getting the same power as the outer motor. 
There is slightly more load on the inner motor and that will have the effect of centralizing the steering.


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

heres a bench test video. wired this up today and got the phase cables and hall wires right first go...damn cheek.
this does 2100rpm on 130v which would be 195kmh free spin.
what I want is about half that speed at that voltage so will have to rewind with twice the number of turns.
Couldnt get the water cooling jackets to seal but during the bench test the stator flange got almost too hot to touch so this will definitely need water cooling.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6SM55gtAGrQ


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## tylerwatts (Feb 9, 2012)

Impressive Rip! Did you check whether the rotor was rubbing on the system? Seemed a bit noisy. Maybe the heat is cause the timing is a small amount out of sink? Not sure how you can program the controller but could it be tuned? Love the cv mount!


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

tylerwatts said:


> Impressive Rip! Did you check whether the rotor was rubbing on the system? Seemed a bit noisy. Maybe the heat is cause the timing is a small amount out of sink? Not sure how you can program the controller but could it be tuned? Love the cv mount!



miraculously the rotor doesnt touch anywhere, doesnt flex even though it only has 1 rotor flange.
What you can see in the video is the id of the rotor isnt round, ie the magnets arnt lying on a pefectly equal radius away from the stator.
The noise you might hear is the bearings, they are Chinese.
Its all coming apart again anyway cause I want to rewind it from 10 turns to 20 turns and try and get the cooling jackets to seal.
not sure how to adjust the timing on this.


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## cpct (May 31, 2012)

RIPPERTON said:


> What you can see in the video is the id of the rotor isnt round, ie the magnets arnt lying on a pefectly equal radius away from the stator.


What effect would this have? Will this eccentricity cause uneven torque during one rotation?
I'm interested because I have a similar issue with an ME0913 due to "wobbly" rotor disc.


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

cpct said:


> What effect would this have? Will this eccentricity cause uneven torque during one rotation?
> I'm interested because I have a similar issue with an ME0913 due to "wobbly" rotor disc.


as the motor is turning the hum changes pitch.
I have spare 0913 rotors with magnets unused.


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## kennybobby (Aug 10, 2012)

It seemed quite quiet during the coast-down portions--no sound of rubbing or bearing noises, so it is likely electrically induced noise we are hearing.

Before you tear it down to rewind you might want to put a strap of leather on the CV hub and put drag load (prony brake dyno) on it to see how the rpm holds up with some load torque. You can use a fisherman's spring scale or just hang weights off the end of your bench to quantify the torque if desired. The loaded rpm may be closer to your desired operating speed as the no-load speed is not applicable for your car.

Also motor speed is determined by the carrier frequency out of the controller, not by the supply voltage. There should be some sort of Hz/Volt setting for scaling the throttle input for maximum output frequency (speed).


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

Motor rpm is battery voltage sensitive, it does 1100rpm on 63v.
here Ive started back engineering the second stator.
Robert says the motor has a 10 turn winding but Ive counted 23 turns spread out over 3 teeth. Tricky is the center tooth is wound in the opposite direction as the 2 teeth either side of it.


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

Ive found a trick way of removing enamel from copper windings.
98% pure Sulfuric Acid. Just bath for 10 minutes, wash in water.
Doesnt eat the copper, solder flows straight on.


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## PStechPaul (May 1, 2012)

Another method is to use a torch to burn off the insulation. The following discussion indicates that modern enamel breaks down to form a flux that helps with tinning:
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/everything-else/131250-removing-enamel-magnet-wire.html

A high-tech method uses lasers:
http://www.spectrumtech.com/product-groups/magnet-wire-stripping

A mechanical stripper:
http://www.wirestrippingmachine.com/Enameled-Wire-Stripper-Product-394.html

I found someone on YouTube who used lye to strip enamel wire, but it looked dangerous and nasty. But I think an alkaline chemical would not eat the copper as much as acid. Have you tried using paint stripper chemicals?


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

PStechPaul said:


> Another method is to use a torch to burn off the insulation. The following discussion indicates that modern enamel breaks down to form a flux that helps with tinning:
> http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/everything-else/131250-removing-enamel-magnet-wire.html
> 
> A high-tech method uses lasers:
> ...



I used heat (mapgas) when I shortened the star connection and it anealed the copper and started to break it down, like burn it so I dont like that method.
I dont think anything less powerful than Sulfuric will work in a short time period.
Most any chemical stripper you use will be less effective than advertised so will take too long.
The sulfuric not only left the copper completely in tact, ie didnt erode or corrode but also left it clean enough to solder.
Paint stripper is really dirty stuff requiring a lot more cleaning than sulfuric.
I mean rinse in water !!! cant beat that.


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## tylerwatts (Feb 9, 2012)

Looks very good Rip! Are you joining the wires to essentially reduce endings and increase count for higher current and speed from same voltage?

How are your mounts going?


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## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

> Tricky is the center tooth is wound in the opposite direction as the 2 teeth either side of it.


That is much the same as a normal induction motor.








One coil goes anti-clockwise while the next goes clockwise, then
over again.

I like your motor, can't wait to see how it performs after you get it optimised.

Miz


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## kennybobby (Aug 10, 2012)

Great photos once again, thanks for sharing.

The motor looks like it has a 56-pole rotor and is wound like a 6-pole wye (or star) AC machine with a 9 tooth pitch (pole spacing) [Edit: should have said 7-pole, 7x9 = 63 teeth as corrected in the following post, an AC machine would have an even number of stator poles but that is not required here]. But here each phase in a pole consists of 3 teeth with alternating winding polarity for each tooth, and no phases overlap or share teeth. Looks like 3 turns per tooth with 7-in-hand wire [Edit: actually 9-in-hand as posted below].

If the 2100 rpm at 130 V was a no-load speed then we can use that data to estimate the back-emf [Edit: about 16 rpm per volt] and converting it to metric the motor might produce torque at about .6 N-m per Amp.


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

Close...
there ARE 56 poles, 56 magnets, 63 teeth, star connection
and Like Kenny Bobby said...


> each phase in a pole consists of 3 teeth with alternating winding polarity for each tooth, and no phases overlap or share teeth


But there are 9 strands in hand and 23 turns spread out over the 3 teeth.
8 turns, 8 turns, 7 turns.

there are 7x 3 tooth groups per phase arrayed around the stator

I want to reduce the rpm per volt and yes I know 3 phase motors dont have an rpm per volt rating but this one does because it will do 2200rpm on 130v and 1100rpm on 63v, dont forget this is a Kelly not a VFD....so
what I want is 1100rpm on 130v and my theory is I can increase the number of turns in each coil to 45, thats 15 turns on each tooth.
So Ive effectively shortened the electrical gearing, ie gone form 3rd gear back down to 1st gear.
To do this I need to reduce the cross section of wire in hand, probably down to the equivalent of 4.5 strands.
Now before you go saying it will blow up because the smaller CS wont handle the current....I ask you, what current ?
Ive reduced the motors need for current because Im only going to 90kmh instead of 195kmh. Plus the shorter electrical gearing has given me more torque.
Current or high amps only exists when there is load, its a product of load.
And when you reduce the load, you reduce current.
Im trying to achieve high rpm through high volts (130v) not high amps.

Anyway this is my understanding of electromagnetics according to my life long familiarization with "apple falls on head" physics.


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

Forgot to mention the wire is 0.5mm
My calc for rewinding so far is single strand of 1.0mm, 15 turns per tooth.


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

ok hows 1.3mm and 17 turns per tooth.


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## kennybobby (Aug 10, 2012)

It looks to me like you are going in the right direction to meet your objective.

To re-wind for a higher voltage you want to put in more turns with a smaller diameter wire. This increases the resistance and reduces the current. Plus it increases the inductance and raises the back-emf constant Kb, which lowers the rpm/volt. The motor torque constant Kt goes up but you won't be able to put in as many amps.

17 turns of 1.3mm versus 8 turns of 9-in-hand 0.5mm:

Doubles the inductance and the resistance/length goes up by ~33% from 9 to 12 mOhms/meter.

The Ripperton Laboratory looks like a fun place to play...


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

well Im learning to wind.
Here Im jamming 15 turns of 1.25mm diameter wire around each tooth.
Pretty messy as its hard to keep the strand straight and neat.
Might have to go one size down.
Original cross section was
9x 0.5 = 1.76 sqmm
doubling number of turns = halve number of strands
4.5x 0.5 = 0.88 sqmm
1x 1.25 = 1.22 sqmm
1x 1.1 = 0.95 sqmm.


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## tylerwatts (Feb 9, 2012)

Rip that is looking good. Never mind the slightly misaligned wiring. I've seen on endless sphere that winding with higher gauge wire like that actually improved performance of the outrunner rc motors guys were using so this looks like a good plan. 

I've been thinking about cooling in rewound air cooled motors and always thought if you can get some small gauge copper brake pipe between the windings you could use an aircon system to cool the motor. How much space is between the windings in your rewind? Could the winding be biased one end to leave some space for this? Would be a good opportunity for improved performance. What do you think?


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## tylerwatts (Feb 9, 2012)

Looking at the pics I think you might squeeze that brake pipe in there, remembering you only need half diameter space from either tooth's winding. 

Another thought I've been toying with though not in this application would be to use that copper brake pipe as the conductor also, hence have cooling through the conductor itself and thus reduce transfer of heat to other components right at the source. You could fill between the large pipe spaces with more solid wire for higher wind ratio if needed also.

Just another thought. Love your builds sir!


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

tylerwatts said:


> Love your builds sir!


Why thank you sir.

Im of the impression the stator core gets hotter than the windings due to induction heating so thats where Il be focusing cooling. I could be wrong.
During the tests of the standard motor the cooling jacket hub got surprisingly hot but the windings did not. Il carry out more tests later once Ive got the basics right but yes there is a fair bit of room between the individual coils.
But I will have to put an epoxy resin in there to solidify the windings so they dont loosen and chaf on the tooth.


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## hmincr (Jan 20, 2012)

I commend you for doing the rewind with large gauge wire. I have read where guys have tortured their hands doing the RC motors. 

As far as cooling, far be it for me to tell someone how to do motor work, BUT, over on the Sphere, John in CR has done some very good cooling with scooter hub motors. He drills nice size holes closer to the axle area and a lot more smaller holes as close to the windings as is physically possible. He fastens curved aluminum fins on the inside of the cover and that seems to let him run over 100V and 300 phase amps with no appreciable heating. He can hold his hand on the motor after climbing hills and running the highway, so, it does work. Sorry, he has NO way to give °'s of temp. 

The fins are lightweight and not very large, so, it would be less weight overall, instead of water cooling, pumps, radiator, etc. 

He explains why he did what he did, and, his theory seems to play out well in his motors. 

He IS using them on bicycles, and home built scooter designs, BUT, he also weighs a LOT, and he DID use big packs of A123--26650 cells to get 84V-24S18P packs. He runs the highway down here and does 60Mph-roughly 100 Kph, running hills, without motor heat. 

You might look up what he has done, OR, if you like, I could look for the particular info and post it here, IF you are interested. 

I have been following your whole adventure with the track bike and you are coming along nicely. Good luck with the motor wind. 

Harold in CR


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## tylerwatts (Feb 9, 2012)

Harold
Would you post that link for us all please sir. I'm sure Mr Rip would be just as keen as I to understand what is done and how it us so effective. Thanks

Sorry for the hijack Rip! Hope the info helps you also.


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## hmincr (Jan 20, 2012)

OK. Just hope this is good info for your hubmotors. I do know, John's motors have a little room inside the covers, so the fins worked out great. Also, very important is the type and location of the vent holes-slots. 

Here is the link. http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=39773


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## tylerwatts (Feb 9, 2012)

Thank you Harold. Will look now.


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## PStechPaul (May 1, 2012)

That link had an extra http in it. Here's one that works:
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=39773


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## hmincr (Jan 20, 2012)

Thanks Paul. I fixed it in the OP.


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## tylerwatts (Feb 9, 2012)

Thanks Paul. Didn't figure out why it wasn't working. Will check it out now.


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

Yep I will be fitting some kind of air cooling for the magnets and had exactly the same kind of fin or blade figured out.
And now that I am rewinding and redesigning the star connection to be much lower profile I will have more room in that area to make a decent fan blade.


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## kennybobby (Aug 10, 2012)

Ounce of prevention...Don't forget to put the paper in the slots, especially under the end turns--the sharp edge of the lamination stack at the corners will cut thru the varnish. Epoxy will help hold the windings but the coils move and vibrate with the alternating currents.


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## tylerwatts (Feb 9, 2012)

Rip, and others. Key message for cooling I got was that the most benefit came from passing air through the core-magnet gap. Over the coils helps but not massively in comparison so intake low down on one side and exhausted (preferably in rotor, with intake in stator, allowing forced air also...) on opposite side of the gap at Max dia near magnets, but not weakening rotor, should work best.


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## tylerwatts (Feb 9, 2012)

Rip it occurred to me your motors are single sided outrunners now so essentially if you put intake ports on the rotor face and fan blades on the inside face in front of the windings the motors will naturally exhaust over the gap and out the other side which is about ideal. Just remember to reverse the design for the opposite side as it will be rotating the opposite direction... good luck! I'm excited by your little build, well little by Ripperton Engineering standards!


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

After much head scratching I finally figured out a system to rewind the stators.
Heres $60 worth of 1.18mm enameled copper.









Suspended above the stator on a swivel.









Cut chamfers on the tooth serifs to make it easier to slip the prewound coil around.









This is the prewind spool with retractable leg for removing the coil.









Wrap 14 turns around the 2 legs


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

Kick the leg in and remove the coil off the spool.









Stretch the coil out a bit









and feed it onto the tooth









wind the second coil in the opposite direction in situe, again 14 turns.









feed it onto the tooth


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

wind the third coil in the same direction as the first and feed it on.









badaboom...well its still a struggle making sure everything behaves itself.
Im trying to use the original slot liner papers but some will have to be replaced.


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## PStechPaul (May 1, 2012)

As I'm sure you know, you must be very careful not to scratch the insulation when inserting the enamel-coated magnet wire. I think I used a similar size wire for my induction motor rewinding and when I tested the windings with a hipot I had breakdowns in several places at 1500-2500 VDC. I was able to see some arcing when I turned off the shop lights and I was able to fix it by relocating one of the wires and stabilizing them with tie-wraps and lacing cord. I think I also applied some insulating varnish once I relieved the pressure at the failure points. 

What is the winding sequence for your motor, and how many slots and poles? The motors I rewound used bands that spanned several slots, and I think I wound up with a 12 pole motor with a 36 slot stator. Of course, mine was a three phase induction motor where some current is flowing in all conductors at any time. If you are sequencing each pole then the concept may be different, but otherwise I think you need to take the vector sums of the currents in the conductors around each pole piece to determine the magnitude and phase angle.

Looks like a lot of work but hopefully you are getting good results.


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## e*clipse (Aug 2, 2009)

Very cool!  

I'm doing a similar thing using a Highlander Hybrid MGRs for motors. 

I'm very curious how the cornering issue will work out.

Good luck! 

E*clipse


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

OMG that took 3 weeks...but I managed to retain my sanity...I think.
Now to mount this stator on its own flange and test it, if it works ok, set the windings in a bit of resin to stop them wiggling around.


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## jddcircuit (Mar 18, 2010)

RIPPERTON said:


> OMG that took 3 weeks...but I managed to retain my sanity...I think.
> Now to mount this stator on its own flange and test it, if it works ok, set the windings in a bit of resin to stop them wiggling around.


Your perseverance is impressive. Very excellent.


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

Perseverance doesnt pay off this time.
The bloody thing still does 2200rpm on 130v,   

but now it sounds like a haunted house theme music and the sound track off JAWS.
Plus I connected the phase cables and hall wires up in the direction of rotation ie wanted it to turn anti clock but it turned clockwise.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OmZq9mQABYE&feature=c4-overview&list=UUoOd7A2JVRmeuaEfGbO7f_g


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

more pics


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

Fixed it
messed with the hall wires and bingo, spins at 1300 rpm and smooooooth as.
  .
So the theory works fine, more turns = less rpm.
Just bizarre that with the hall wires in the wrong sequence the motor spun twice as fast. Try swapping 2 plug leads in a V12 piston engine and see if it spins twice as quick.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t49o2UudK0U&feature=c4-overview&list=UUoOd7A2JVRmeuaEfGbO7f_g


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## tylerwatts (Feb 9, 2012)

Great stuff Rip! I think you got lucky that it spun at all with the halls wired wrong. Certainly sounds sweet though! How long till it is doing real work?


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

tylerwatts said:


> Great stuff Rip! I think you got lucky that it spun at all with the halls wired wrong. Certainly sounds sweet though! How long till it is doing real work?


Thanks Tyler.
I went back the the rewind shop where I bought the wire and they quoted $45 for a baked insulating varnish. The stator will definitely need that.

I also asked QS motors if they could make custom stators with even higher turn counts and they said it was possible.


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## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

Hey Rip:

How many wires are crimped into the ring terminal fittings?

Miz


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

mizlplix said:


> Hey Rip:
> How many wires are crimped into the ring terminal fittings?
> Miz


7
crimping lug and each wire was tinned then crimped in 3 places and pumped full of solder


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## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

We have tried many-many different in hand bundles and eventually worked down to 8 of 18 Gauge mag wire. 

12 was our last count where we had no problems. Whenever we went fewer in count, the motors started to
run warmer and warmer down to 8 wires where we actually caught one on fire during the Curtis optimization 
routine. The return loops at the ends were getting hot, where they were out of the stator. The wire in the
stator seemed to be somewhat cooler, but still hot. 

Our final determination is 12 in hand to be our absolute minimum for a Curtis controller. You might be OK 
as you will be running a different controller and your motor has a different stator. 

8-17 Ga strands is around 119 amps continuous duty (by the AWG scale).

12-18 Ga strands is around 192 amps continuous duty, by comparison.

Just watch the motor temperature while first running it under load.

Your project is really interesting. You are doing a great job. 

Miz


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

A mockingly good mock ...Mock of the week Ild say.
These are both stator frames bolted together back to back with the rotors pushed on but no stators in there, they are getting surgery done elsewhere.
They look rather big in there but everything should fit and hook up superbly.


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

I almost finished winding both stators with the $60 worth of copper I bought.
Only missed out on half a tooth of the last coil.









One of the guys down at the rewind shop found a good solution for the coil insulation issue.









Stator frames with 3 motor mounts.


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

65x6 Equal Angle running across the subframe for the front battery box mount doubles as the front motor mount anchor point.









Upper rear motor mount









Lower motor mounts


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

Drive shafts relengthened with 3/4 hydraulic pipe plug welded onto the original shaft


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

Got the stators back from the rewind shop. The hot dip cost $60 the pair !!
have to use a flapper sanding tool to get all the unwanted varnish off the areas where the frames touch and the tops of the teeth.










This is a pressing tool for the fan blades that get bolted to the inside of the rotor flange.


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

This is a rotor installation insert that extends the stub shaft so the rotor slides on straight and doesnt touch the stator.


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

Couldnt get the water cooling sections to seal the water so I reverted to air cooling. The elbow is one of 3 air inlets. The aluminium tape blocks off the holes to make sure the fan blades get cool air through the rotor flange instead of warm air from between the stator frames.
The temp switch will turn the air pumps on at 40C


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## tylerwatts (Feb 9, 2012)

Looking good sir. I hope the air cooling is sufficient and you don't lose out any performance as a result! Good luck, can't wait!


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

tylerwatts said:


> Looking good sir. I hope the air cooling is sufficient and you don't lose out any performance as a result! Good luck, can't wait!


Thanks Tyler I cant wait either. Not having a job is the best thing for an EV builder. Things happen quickly.
Heres the phase cable support.


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

Motor pairs about to go together.










And controller heatsink / backboard cnc'd from 16mm marine grade.


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## tylerwatts (Feb 9, 2012)

Wow it's looking smart! What arrangement are you planning for batteries? In the engine bay or elsewhere?


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

tylerwatts said:


> Wow it's looking smart! What arrangement are you planning for batteries? In the engine bay or elsewhere?


Both.
20s8p under the rear seat
20s8p behind the front grill in front of the motors.
I only have enough LifeTechs for 39s so Im making the 40th block from Headways


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## tylerwatts (Feb 9, 2012)

Sounds good, going to be a fun runabout!


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

Rear pack goes in the easy (elaborate) way.
6 M8 threaded rods go down through the floor and into the pack and winding the nuts lifts the pack up high enough to get the jack under it.



























Then 30x M8 bolts go down into the pack to suspend it. (65kg)


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

50mm cable goes up to the front all properly "D" clamped off to the chassis.


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

I took the old QS motor windings down to the metal recyclers and got $18.15 for the 3kg of copper.


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

In goes the front pack and all cabled up, the controllers are precharged to 134v. Gettin close to EV grin time


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## hmincr (Jan 20, 2012)

With room to spare.  Nice job.


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

hmincr said:


> With room to spare.  Nice job.


Not finished in there yet, the 3kW Elcon has to go in yet.


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

A momentous occasion, the first turning of the wheel under electric power.
Juggling of the hall wires and phase cables.
was using aligator clip wires for phase cables, made for quick swapping.
Anyway 8 attempts and it runs.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VqE9RZ6fYF8&feature=c4-overview&list=UUoOd7A2JVRmeuaEfGbO7f_g


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## MalcolmB (Jun 10, 2008)

Well done Rip! I love the simplicity of this layout (despite all the hard work that goes into achieving it). Can't wait to see how the Mira works out on the road.


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## tylerwatts (Feb 9, 2012)

Sounds brilliant! How soon until you think it might hit pavement Rip? What are the rules in Auz like in registering electric vehicles? Is it a big hassle?


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

Thanks Mal and Tyler
I went around the block 4 times last night and nothing broke or fell off, I was pretty nervous the first 2 times but got the EV grin in the end.
Its nice to drive, the motors work well together and no noticeable torque steer or excessive self centering in corners.
Only complaint is they are a bit too noisy, at low speed they groan and once going they sing in a turbiney way. Also a little difficult getting up a bumpy driveway from standstill, you need to have momentum to get up over the footpath.
There is a decent amount of power for a commuter and it has really useable punchy torque at the typical traffic speeds, 5-50kmh. I will take it down the freeway once I get the BMS running and the pack charged up.
After the 3rd lap of the block the thermo fans came on so theres no real over heating probs.
I will put a smaller fan on the controller block and bigger fans for the motors.
more videos soon....


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

Lots going on here, the right motor is making electrical noises like grinding but the left motor is smooth.
There is a clonking noise coming from one of the motors, once per revolution, only under load, could be a rotor fan blade.
You can see the movement between the chassis and subframe. Might have to lengthen the phase cables.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lLdwwbzExrA&feature=c4-overview&list=UUoOd7A2JVRmeuaEfGbO7f_g


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

WalkAround vid with noisy motor issue

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CfFK6b7812Y&feature=c4-overview&list=UUoOd7A2JVRmeuaEfGbO7f_g


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

Bloody Ell heres mud on my face.
The noise is one of the controllers.
I just connected the left controller to the right motor and it sounds sweet and smooth just like the left motor.
Glad that it wasnt my rewind jobs.


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## tylerwatts (Feb 9, 2012)

Awesome. I had the same thoughts as you rip about wiring, thought it might be a coil connected to the wrong phase point though. What could be wrong with the controller? Sounds like timing problem. Would flashing a copy of the good controller's settings onto the duff one be worth a try, or even possible?


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## tylerwatts (Feb 9, 2012)

PS, awesome that you know where the fault is. And even better that the car is running well in spite, with good performance to boot! Well done sir, you inspire!


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

Clocking up some test k's and its starting to shape up but theres one glaring fault atm. Hill starts, I dont know whether its the dodgy controller in there or if I should have wound it to 60 turns but it wont take off from stand still up any hill.
Kelly have offered to reflash the noisy controller, if that doesnt work Im up for a new one $700.
Im collecting my regen functions as I go, 2 out of 3 atm.
I have throttle off set to max 20%
and brake switch set to max 50% triggered by the brake light circuit.
With a bit of planning I can bring it to a stop without using friction.
I will fabricate another pot to go on the old clutch pedal so I can use variable mode to get up to 100% then I wont be using the pads at all.
The Batrium BMS has been commissioned and the pack looks ok for nor now but theres a strong smell of electrolyte in the rear box.
In car video soon...


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## tylerwatts (Feb 9, 2012)

Rip, sounds good. Wondering about the hill starts, with smaller pm motors it is a factor of timing that the motor locks up at really slow starts because it gets to a lockout point before reaching a timing point to tell the controller which direction to switch in. Don't know if it applies to your motors but thought it might help.


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

Reflashed the right controller with the current firmware sent to me by Kelly.
Really cant ask for better tech support than that.
The reflash fixed the immediate noise problem so I wont have to get a new one. 
The right controller still drops out in certain conditions ie not simply under full load but when acceleration like mid rpm full throttle.
It doesnt drop out in a standing start full throttle but seems to limit power and crawl away very slowly then build power when rpm starts to climb.
Ive been testing and reconfiguring the controllers all morning and the stators havnt gone above 80C. The temp switch is a bother though, it switches on ok at about 45C but then never switches off even though stator temp goes down to 30C.
Im thinking about an electronic hall timing advance unit and whether retarding timing at low speed would improve takeoff.
Ive hooked up an old bicycle speedo so I can get some range figures.
Still working on the regen pedal, its a head scratcher dont know whether I should use a rotory ford throttle pot or one of the new linear pots I bought for the R1.


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

Just took the Mira down the M4 here in western Sydney and it did 110kmh !!!
Theres the hill start problem right there, the damn thing goes too fast.
As a single speed shopping cart it can only afford a top speed of about 80kmh meaning a turn count of 54 instead of 42, and thats on 136v. Go to 175 volts and you can increase turn count again and get even better bottom and grunt.

I just did 50km on this charge and one cell in the rear pack is a bit low so stopped it there. Again stator frames were about 80C
I estimate the car could do 80km on a charge once I weed out the weakling cells.


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## tylerwatts (Feb 9, 2012)

Wow that sounds good Rip. I take it you won't rewind the motors, so what does it mean for you in order to lower the top speed and increase starting torque? 
Can the controllers not advance timing themselves so you set advance low at take off and then it adjusts with increased speed? Like an ICE ECU dare I say!


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## jddcircuit (Mar 18, 2010)

With the PM motor that I am using if I don't have my electrical angle lined up exactly with the magnetic field angle then it will spin faster in one direction than the other. There will also be a difference in torque in either direction. I am using a resolver for mechanical angle and you are using hall effect sensors but the same holds true. Your sensors are in the ball park which is why it spins smoothly but you may be off by 10 or 15 electrical degrees which could compromise torque at the low end and make it spin faster at the high end similar to flux weakening.

Since you have one CW and on CCW rotation that are behaving differently I would suspect that a some angle compensation is needed to get the appropriate hall sensors alignment with the field.

If this sounds like it might be relevant there are some ways to confirm this using a scope on one of the phases and one of the hall sensors while you are spinning the motor by hand.

Good luck
Jeff


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

Im talking with Robert Chen about some custom stators with 60 turns.

Heres one last shot of the front pack cradle.









I first tried to use the linear pot but found out too late it was the wrong way round. It started off at 5v and as I pushed the pedal it reduced to 1v when I pulled the slide pin. Would have been to difficult to turn the pot round and push the slide pin so I switch to the rotary pot with a cable.


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

Rotary pot from Ford Falcon throttle.


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

Yes a YouTube vid for the regen pot 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I4oxzwa5NeQ&feature=c4-overview&list=UUoOd7A2JVRmeuaEfGbO7f_g


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

Ive asked Robert Chen from QS motors to send me some stator cores unwound and they cant even do that. Pretty piss poor company I think.
Their standard product is basically useless and they cant even change the design.
So I will have to rewind the stators Ive got meaning cutting off all the copper I spent weeks winding on... 

I think the dropping out problem could be hall wire shielding so I was thinking of wrapping some aluminum tape around the wires and earthing the tape off to the frame.

Ive had to order another $500 worth of headway cells to replace the dead LifeTechs in the rear pack.


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## kennybobby (Aug 10, 2012)

*Low speed stall torque*

Maybe something to try before you strip out the motors-- Can you measure the motor current and voltage at the stall condition (zero speed on the hill starts), then get the same measurements plus motor rpm at a high, medium and low road speed? 

Also would your controller have provision for torque or current control instead of purely speed control? 

It seems that you have plenty of voltage margin to reach a high top speed, but need some additional current control at the low end to generate starting torque.


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## jddcircuit (Mar 18, 2010)

RIPPERTON said:


> Ive asked Robert Chen from QS motors to send me some stator cores unwound and they cant even do that. Pretty piss poor company I think.
> Their standard product is basically useless and they cant even change the design.
> So I will have to rewind the stators Ive got meaning cutting off all the copper I spent weeks winding on...
> 
> ...


What is your stall torque per Amp?

What torque are you hoping for with a rewind?


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

Dont have any torque or stall current data.
Anyway I just got the Mira back together and went around the block. The dropping out problem is still there, wrapping in aluminum tape didnt help.
Im just going to drive it around and get a few cycles into the pack.


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## jddcircuit (Mar 18, 2010)

RIPPERTON said:


> Dont have any torque or stall current data.
> Anyway I just got the Mira back together and went around the block. The dropping out problem is still there, wrapping in aluminum tape didnt help.
> Im just going to drive it around and get a few cycles into the pack.


The reason for asking is that it would be a shame to have to undo your rewind. With your fabrication skills you wouldn't have much of a problem building a lever pressing on a scale. If you then energize a phase pair with a fixed current you can record the force on the scale and calculate the torque. The max torque should be half way between the corresponding hall effect sensor region.

If the max torque is not lined up with your hall effect sensor regions then it may explain low torque at stand still and higher top end speeds like you described in an earlier post. Just seems like a reasonable test before tearing out your hard work with the rewind.

If everything is lined up then it will also give you a torque baseline to compare with your next rewind.

Another quick test for a possible commutation shift error is to see if you have the same torque in both directions.

Best regards
Jeff


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

I will try to investigate into the hall timing JD.
The most annoying problem atm is the controllers dropping out under hard acceleration and also hard regen.

Heres a pdf of the pack balancing with the Batrium BMS system.
18 hours at 1 amp


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

Worlds biggest micro switch.
T Bar off a Subaru Liberty


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

Tried some 300A Kelly controllers and still cuts out like a petrol engine misfiring when I go to accelerate. One motor will drop out momentarily and the steering wheel will jerk to the left or right.
But the acceleration with these 300's is awesome, only prob is the copper doesnt like that amount of energy, gets super heated.

The best result yet showing minimum dropping out was the 300A ctrl turned down to 66%.


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## MalcolmB (Jun 10, 2008)

RIPPERTON said:


> One motor will drop out momentarily and the steering wheel will jerk to the left or right.


That sounds very like the problem I had when I tried using separate controllers this summer. My setup is like yours, one motor per front wheel, except I'm using series-wound DC motors with Alltrax controllers. The problem was most severe under acceleration, when the steering wheel would twitch in my hands and the car would buck to the right or left. Under light acceleration on a flat road it was OK, though still didn't feel totally stable. I thought this might be due to the Alltrax controllers, since they use speed control rather than torque control.

When I hook up my motors in parallel or series to a single controller the car is perfectly stable and easy to drive, so I know it's not a problem with the motors. (I realise that's not feasible with a brushless setup).


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## adder (Oct 16, 2012)

Whats the 0-100kph time with these new controllers.


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

MalcolmB said:


> That sounds very like the problem I had when I tried using separate controllers this summer. My setup is like yours, one motor per front wheel, except I'm using series-wound DC motors with Alltrax controllers. The problem was most severe under acceleration, when the steering wheel would twitch in my hands and the car would buck to the right or left. Under light acceleration on a flat road it was OK, though still didn't feel totally stable. I thought this might be due to the Alltrax controllers, since they use speed control rather than torque control.
> 
> When I hook up my motors in parallel or series to a single controller the car is perfectly stable and easy to drive, so I know it's not a problem with the motors. (I realise that's not feasible with a brushless setup).


Do you think its the capacitors feeding each other in a bouncing kind of way and causing an over volt.
The fault code I get says "Internal Reset", temporary over current , momentary high or low battery voltage .

The R1 is setup the same way but would never have noticed any dropping out as they 2 motors are chained together.

Will ask Fany at Kelly.


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## tylerwatts (Feb 9, 2012)

I would question if it is some sort of ripple at low speed as the current spikes are relatively low frequency with the low motor speed. This may be confusing the hall timing if it is generating a resonance. Are you able to try running the controllers from separate packs briefly for a try? To completely electrically isolate them from each other. They're not grounded to the chassis together are they? Hope we can help you solve this Rip cause I'm sure we're all keen to see another Riperton tyre shredder success in action! I can see burnouts out of the local grocer's or off from the school run haha!


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

tylerwatts said:


> Are you able to try running the controllers from separate packs briefly for a try? To completely electrically isolate them from each other. They're not grounded to the chassis together are they?


That was going to be my next trick.
install both R1 packs in the back but I would have had them joined to feed both ctrls. Now I will have them as 2 separate systems.
The motors are bolted to the subframe and that is cabled to the main chassis.
The ctrls are bolted directly to the chassis.


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## tylerwatts (Feb 9, 2012)

Are they grounded together? I was thinking each is interfering with the other and as one temporarily shuts down it gives chance for the other to kick in and visa versa hence the juddering. I think separate packs is a good starting point though. I hope they don't need to run separately...


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

Problem solved, preliminarily
I broke my system into 2 separate 67v packs and powered each controller separately. No dropping out and felt smoother too.
Now go to higher voltage...the R1 packs


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

Muahahah
2x 175v R1 LiPo packs.


















Good thing I said "preliminarily" because the problem came back when I upped the power


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## tylerwatts (Feb 9, 2012)

I still think it is because they are ground together. The be is leaking slightly and interfering with the low voltage signals of both controllers. Is it a big job to isolate them Rip?


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

tylerwatts said:


> I still think it is because they are ground together. The be is leaking slightly and interfering with the low voltage signals of both controllers. Is it a big job to isolate them Rip?


Yep. the heat sink is heavy and there arnt many attachment points on the firrewall. I have both ctrls on the R1 mounted on acetal frames. It never made any difference on the bike if they were grounded or insulated.

Looking into a different brand of controller now, 270v


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## tylerwatts (Feb 9, 2012)

Will the controller mean rebuilding packs and rewiring motors again?


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

tylerwatts said:


> Will the controller mean rebuilding packs and rewiring motors again?


Yes but here at Ripperton labs were not afraid to take batshit mad to a whole new level.


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

Would need to rewind to 84 turns . 28 turns per tooth with smaller wire might not need prewinding on the spool.
The battery packs would be the same units but go to 4 cells parallel so just modifying the bus bars.
I think I can run the 4kW twin Elcon in series for double the voltage.
Just got an Email from Unite Motor they want $2k for thier 312v 80A air cooled BLTC 312-600


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## tylerwatts (Feb 9, 2012)

Have you got a link to that motor please?


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

tylerwatts said:


> Have you got a link to that motor please?


What motor ? I'm talking about a controller.
I can't cut paste on my phone.
Google Unite Motor


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## tylerwatts (Feb 9, 2012)

Sorry, controller yes. I'll google and post it for you.


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## tylerwatts (Feb 9, 2012)

http://www.unitemotor.com/en/productmin.htm


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

Reconfigured my 4kW Elcon from short block to long and skinny so it can fit in on top of the front battery pack, kept the 240v fans but like the R1 charger it now runs a 40C temp switch.










Pushin 30Amps 










Batrium BMS can ramp the non CAN Elcon down to 1A as soon as the first cell block goes into balance completely automatically so I can lock the car, plug it in and it can balance all night unobserved.


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

Great test run today, did 90km on an incomplete charge as one cell crashed and all the others were still at 3.1v
recharge time was 2 hours on the 4kWh Elcon so thats 8kWh.
The pack is about 8.7kWh (136v x 64Ah)
I think it will do 100km on a charge once that pack is finally sorted, that will make it one very efficient EV at 87Wh/km.
Heres some surgery extracting the dud cell in block 25.
I charged up full and then took the bus bar off that cell block and one cell dropped its voltage immediately, unscrewed it and put a different one in.


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## jonescg (Nov 3, 2010)

RIPPERTON said:


> I think it will do 100km on a charge once that pack is finally sorted, that will make it one very efficient EV at 87Wh/km.


That is very efficient for a non motorcycle EV. Might need to do a plug to road assessment to be certain. Do you reckon it's the transmission which robs the motor of so much power? The Mira is very lightweight, but still, that's pretty good going.


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

jonescg said:


> That is very efficient for a non motorcycle EV.


Il say , my R1 does 300Wh/km when racing !!



jonescg said:


> Do you reckon it's the transmission which robs the motor of so much power?


Direct drive would account for some of the efficiency but by far its the regen that wins it.
This car is the King of Regen.....
All my braking is either throttle off "engine braking" or clutch pedal right up to the stop lights. I still have to use the disc brake to catch the car when the regen cuts out at about 5kmh so I dont rear end the car in front of me then I use the hand brake to hold the car.
The car is technically difficult to drive, demands a lot of driver skills and coordination that normally only mechanics have so its not Soccer Mom proof yet.
Hill starts are a bitch, anything more than 5% and it just cogs and doesnt move. Very embarrassing when gas cars are behind you. 
The regen pedal will trip out very easily especially at speed so you have to carefully push it down a bit to start with and gradually increase the regen as speed decreases. You can floor it only when it gets to about 15kmh.

Then theres the throttle cutting out under acceleration.
You nurse it over the cogging from stand still then floor it up to about 30kmh, then you have to back off to about 80% so it doent cut out.
You can floor it again only when it gets up to about 90kmh.
But cutting out aside it has a decent amount of power, at least as much as the gas engine had.


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## tylerwatts (Feb 9, 2012)

Sounds fantastic apart from the cogging and cutout Rip! A huge success I say. How do you propose proofing it for 'normal' use? Will a hydraulic transducer be best? Any news on replacement controllers?


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## piwhy (Feb 8, 2011)

I'm using an Enertrac direct drive hub motor on a motorcycle with a kelly controller (khb12401) and I've the same cutting out problems during hard acceleration. I don't think it come from controllers isolation or EMI effects, but Kelly controllers must be really de-rated to work correctly. I will try a 600A kelly controller configured at 50% in few days, I hope it will work better...

Also, like you the controller is unable to drive the motor from a hill start when the slope is above 8-10%, yes it's really frustrating. I'm wondering if a pure-sine controller like Sevcon could be able to drive the motor better on hill starts... Have you considered it ?


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

tylerwatts said:


> Sounds fantastic apart from the cogging and cutout Rip! A huge success I say. How do you propose proofing it for 'normal' use? Will a hydraulic transducer be best? Any news on replacement controllers?


You wouldnt integrate the 2 braking systems like Jehu's Kombi because emergency braking at speed would cause the regen to trip out straight away and make the steering kick and you want to avoid overamping the system.
Having said that I havnt yet played with the regen settings, I just have it at 100% so I could try lowering that value so I could floor the regen pedal at any speed and it wouldnt trip out.
Im close to putting the twin hubs in the "too hard basket" because of the cutting out prob.
The safest way is a single motor through a differential.
Unite motor wont get me any specs on the controllers.
Good news is I got a pink slip so I can reregister it again as a petrol car for another year while working on the little things to get it engineered.

Piwhy does your ctlr trip out and stay off showing an overamp fault code or is it more like a spark plug misfiring ie continues running afterwards ?
I am looking at other ctlr's and it looks like I will have to go to an IGBT unit so I can got to a higher battery voltage.


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## piwhy (Feb 8, 2011)

RIPPERTON said:


> Piwhy does your ctlr trip out and stay off showing an overamp fault code or is it more like a spark plug misfiring ie continues running afterwards ?
> I am looking at other ctlr's and it looks like I will have to go to an IGBT unit so I can got to a higher battery voltage.


Exactly, it's more like a spark plug misfiring, not an overamp or overtemp fault ; just a weird "internal reset" fault...


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

piwhy said:


> Exactly, it's more like a spark plug misfiring, not an overamp or overtemp fault ; just a weird "internal reset" fault...


Yep, sucks doesnt it.
I just reconfiged my engine brake to 0% so that I could eliminate any throttle pot fault but still does it, then I drove the car with one ctlr switched off and still drops.
But is your enertrack the single or double motor, using 2 ctlr's ?

I also reset my total regen power to 70% and left the engine brake at 0% and its a lot more drivable. Angel gear is cool.

Also tried connecting the 2 ammeters but they dont work either.


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

Did a few too many joyrides at our last Tuesday night AEVA meeting.
Had to park it in a pub parking lot half way home and take the bus at 10pm.
Went back the next day with the van and started snooping around for a power point.
Right out the back of the pub there was a meter box with guess what...a double power point, so I plugged her in for 40minutes and went next door to Maccas for breakfast.









Here we are at Rouse Hill shopping center with a crashed cell, only single outlets here but a quick 20 minute top up got me home.


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## piwhy (Feb 8, 2011)

RIPPERTON said:


> Yep, sucks doesnt it.
> I just reconfiged my engine brake to 0% so that I could eliminate any throttle pot fault but still does it, then I drove the car with one ctlr switched off and still drops.
> But is your enertrack the single or double motor, using 2 ctlr's ?
> 
> ...


I'm using the single enertrac motor with only one controller. That's why I think the cutout problems come from the kelly controller design and it's not specific to the dual motor/controller usage.
I should have time to try out the KHB12601 controller within few days with a generously derated configuration... I will give you my feelings.


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## poprock (Apr 29, 2010)

Hope you didn't use more than 5c worth of juice.


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

poprock1 said:


> Hope you didn't use more than 5c worth of juice.


20 minutes at 2kWh is 16.2 cents


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## poprock (Apr 29, 2010)

Then after what has happened to the leaf owner in America you're in big trouble. A Leaf owner stole power; got arrested. Posted by adverse effects in the AEVA forum. Petty but to the letter of the law, not the spirit of the law.


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

poprock1 said:


> Then after what has happened to the leaf owner in America you're in big trouble. A Leaf owner stole power; got arrested. Posted by adverse effects in the AEVA forum. Petty but to the letter of the law, not the spirit of the law.


I dont think we have the same NAZI legal system down here.


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

Now thats what I call a diff
97 Diahatsu Terios 4x4 front diff, all aluminium housing and cover
5.5:1 ratio
weight 10.6kg
cost $220 with shafts
Flange to axle centre 200mm
overall 300mm long
So this will go with a new GLE induction motor / controller kit something like the units on this page...
http://www.glelec.com/en/product_category.asp?id=2


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## tylerwatts (Feb 9, 2012)

That sounds good. Shame about the controller issues. Are you not keen to try it with different controllers before a total rebuild? Could the R1 controllers work as a trial, without melting the motors of course...


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

tylerwatts said:


> That sounds good. Shame about the controller issues. Are you not keen to try it with different controllers before a total rebuild? Could the R1 controllers work as a trial, without melting the motors of course...


Id love to try different ctlrs, Unite arnt responding, theres more brands out there if I spend a million.
The R1 ctlrs would work but I already know that 300A ctlrs worked so no use trying 600A and yes they would melt the motors


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## tylerwatts (Feb 9, 2012)

Yes, not worth wasting money on new controllers, I was wondering along the line of what poprock1 was saying, that running them at half rating would they still stall or judder? These controllers don't do it in the R1 right? And I understood that your timing on both motors was the same also. So if the controllers work on the R1 simple inference is they should do the same in the Mira. 
What do you think? Is it worth the hassle of trying?


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

tylerwatts said:


> Yes, not worth wasting money on new controllers, I was wondering along the line of what poprock1 was saying, that running them at half rating would they still stall or judder? These controllers don't do it in the R1 right? And I understood that your timing on both motors was the same also. So if the controllers work on the R1 simple inference is they should do the same in the Mira.
> What do you think? Is it worth the hassle of trying?


Yes the R1 motors are locked together and they run on 1 hall sensor.
Maybe its just a Kelly defect with smaller controllers.
Ive asked Fany again if he can help with this, maybe we will find something.
Another friend suggested installing a bank of capacitors in the DC side to smooth things out. Maybe if they were installed between the 2 ctlr's ?


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

The main battery cables were run around the outside of the engine bay and I though that might have been causing a magnetic field that might have been causing the cutting out so I gathered them together and ran them across the middle of the engine bay but no improvement. 

after balancing the pack once more I did another range test today...90km
so thats slightly better than 100 Wh/km.
Still should have a cycle analyst on there to accurately measure the amount of energy consumed by the motors ect and also the amount of energy recuperated by regen.
One of my next range tests will be without using regen at all so I can see the difference regen makes


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

Had the drive shafts off this morning so I got a bit of rpm data.
Speed in kmh on the M4 was 115kmh
Speed in free spin was 128kmh......13kmh difference, not much
Full throttle rpm
Right 1366 @ 21A
Left 1350 @ 17A
Idle rpm
Right 20 @ 7A
Left 25 @ 13A
So they arnt really identical but they both have the same release of firmware.


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

Hey Rip,

Been watching your project from afar. Not the way I'd build an EV so I just kept my mouth shut. But I thought you might try a technique I've used to test motor drives. Trying to sort out problems on the vehicle (like controller faults) is a bitch. It is a lot easier on the bench where you have controlled conditions and repeatability and don't have to worry about crashing into trees.

You have a unique opportunity with two identical motors and drives. Connect the motor shafts together. Connect the DC inputs to the controllers together on the same battery. Run one in motor mode and the other in regeneration mode. The battery just supplies the difference between the power to the motor drive and the power from the generator drive. Measure the DC current to each controller and battery voltage. Take the average of the two currents times the voltage and that figure is very nearly equal to the actual shaft power. Now divide by the RPM and adjust for units conversion and you have the torque.

You can develop speed torque maps for the motor. See why you can't start uphill. I've done this with induction motors and have been able to test from very low RPM to max. I typically set the motor speed and vary the torque on the generator to develop the torque curve for that RPM. Then set the next RPM and repeat. Ending with the family of torque curves. You also have the ability to adjust parameter settings and see resulting changes in torque. 

Along the way, as you increase loads, you'll find where your faults occur, and maybe why. Also really useful when dealing with fault analysis is to put a scope on a phase current.

You'll find you don't draw down the battery quickly at all giving you longer test sessions than you have on the road. And it is easy to calculate actual efficiency on the drives from DC input to shaft power output.

Give it a try. I think you'll be amazed.

major


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

major said:


> Hey Rip,
> Been watching your project from afar. Not the way I'd build an EV so I just kept my mouth shut.
> major


Damn straight Major, now that Ive done it this way, its not the way Id build an EV either which is why Im going to a single motor on a diff.

Did 90km on a charge today so thats got to be better than 100Wh/km, assuming I have 8.5kWh in battery power (135v 64Ah) and I used about 8.0kWh of that,
let me think, I dont normally do math but its about 88.8Wh/km. Thats got to be a record or something at least for a DIY car conversion.
Such is the scale of Kinetic energy


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## tylerwatts (Feb 9, 2012)

Very interesting idea Major has. Would you consider trying this out off the vehicle once you have the single reduction drive working Rip? Might be very good development for your bldc motors, if that is a future interest. I don't want to be selfish and say do it for us on the forum for educational benefit... I love the direct drive approach you have taken. It packages well and the efficiency is awesome. Not saying your single drive won't though. 

So, details of the new drive please sir! BLDC or induction? What motor speeds do you want to run with it, and with what controller? 

Thanks!


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

The reason the Mira wont do hill starts is quite simple.
Its the number of phase changes in the first 5cm of travel from the stand point.
The reason I want to go to a differential is I can have 5.5 times the number of phase changes in the first 5cm of travel. That will eliminate the cogging and get the motor spinning up into its cycles where it can turn smoothly.


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

RIPPERTON said:


> The reason the Mira wont do hill starts is quite simple.
> Its the number of phase changes in the first 5cm of travel from the stand point.
> The reason I want to go to a differential is I can have 5.5 times the number of phase changes in the first 5cm of travel. That will eliminate the cogging and get the motor spinning up into its cycles where it can turn smoothly.


But you'll have a motor with like about 5 times less pole count so the frequency won't be that great of a difference. 

Your cogging issue is a control problem. You either would not have it or would be able to tune it out with a proper controller. Did you do a simulation on the motor? The guys on ES run that Emetor program which shows the torque ripple (cogging).


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## tylerwatts (Feb 9, 2012)

Ok that makes sense. Direct drive motors are normally high pole count. I thought yours were also. 

What drive system do you want to use on the diff then?


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## jddcircuit (Mar 18, 2010)

I am impressed with the rewind efforts. Switching to a different gear ratio may be needed but seems to be a little premature.

I agree that some motor testing may be very enlightening and will pay off with or without a different gear. 

A quick experiment is a stall torque test. Ideally the stall torque per amp would be the same for both motors is both directions. If not then other experiments can be applied to find out why. I am under the impression that bldc motors can produce max torque at zero rpm.

If you do connect the motors together then I suggest doing a scope capture of the emf waveform and the hall sensors of the motor that is being spun as a generator even before connecting the controller and running it in regen mode.

I have found this test to be very enlightening for my projects. The things that this can confirm is phase alignment of my hall sensors and whether or not my motor is trapezoidal or sinusoidal in nature. I think it is best if the motor emf matches the controller waveform. I am not sure what sort you have. Perhaps the supplier of the controller would help you confirm that your motor is compatible with their control method.

Best regards
Jeff


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## jddcircuit (Mar 18, 2010)

example of locked rotor test results if you are interested

they applied a fixed phase current condition and mechanically incremented the shaft with a lever through one electrical cycle.

this is a different kind of PM motor so the torque curve will be different than yours but you can get the idea

Knowing the Nm per amp I would think will help you with your gearing selections.


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## jk1981 (Nov 12, 2010)

RIPPERTON said:


> Full throttle rpm
> Right 1366 @ 21A
> Left 1350 @ 17A
> Idle rpm
> ...


Is it worth swapping the controllers from side to side, see if the behavior follows the controllers or sticks with the motors? A matched pair of motors and controllers would be a pretty good starting point in debugging this. The difference in higher current consumption from left at low speed to right at high speed suggests to me you may have a bug in the phase timing on at least one of them.

I may have missed it but does it drive normally (ignoring the torque-steer) with one wheel drive or does it still stutter and cut?

The hill start problem also suggests a commutation timing problem unless you have so little torque available you can only hold position or achieve motion at the peak of your torque ripple. Of course with sensibly sized motors there will always come an angle/grade where this is the case but I get the impression we're talking about pretty shallow angles here. It sounds from your description of acceleration and top-speed like once the motors are running this thing has plenty of torque.

Unless your controller can handle very high e-rpm you'll have to reduce the pole count to make use of the diff gearing in which case you're back to the same sort of distance/pole that you have now and you'll still need to get the commutation spot on to avoid it stalling at a low speed phase change.

Is there a current ramping function in the Kelly? Something ramping the phase current up over time or software limiting stall current?

Can you measure the phase stall current to check it is as you expect and check stall torque at various positions away from the peak torque angle for a given phase (directly measuring the torque ripple at constant current)? Maybe your torque ripple is really bad as a consequence of the mechanical/magnetic design but if it's not then you'd have to suspect poor commutation or low phase current for the poor hill start behavior.

jk


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

major said:


> But you'll have a motor with like about 5 times less pole count so the frequency won't be that great of a difference.
> 
> Your cogging issue is a control problem. You either would not have it or would be able to tune it out with a proper controller. Did you do a simulation on the motor? The guys on ES run that Emetor program which shows the torque ripple (cogging).


Didnt think of the pole count.
Would love to try other ctlr's but just cant get my hands on any.
A friend of mine has hall sensor advance/retard units, do you think that might help ?
Mechanical design is easy for me but when it comes to testing, its gets a bit over my head plus dont have access to any equipment.


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

tylerwatts said:


> Ok that makes sense. Direct drive motors are normally high pole count. I thought yours were also.
> 
> What drive system do you want to use on the diff then?


post 171..............


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

jk1981 said:


> you may have a bug in the phase timing on at least one of them.


The hall sensors are lodged into the core in slots, Im trying to imagine how the timing could be out.



jk1981 said:


> I may have missed it but does it drive normally (ignoring the torque-steer) with one wheel drive or does it still stutter and cut?


Still cuts out



jk1981 said:


> It sounds from your description of acceleration and top-speed like once the motors are running this thing has plenty of torque.
> Is there a current ramping function in the Kelly? Something ramping the phase current up over time or software limiting stall current?


Yes once the car gets above 60kmh there is easily as much if not more power than the 660cc petrol engine it once had.
The kelly's do ramp power down under 30kmh. I have to floor it up to 30 then you can feel the power come on...and then it starts cutting out at the same time so I have to actually lift the accelerator to go faster without cutting out.




jk1981 said:


> Can you measure the phase stall current to check it is as you expect and check stall torque at various positions away from the peak torque angle for a given phase (directly measuring the torque ripple at constant current)? Maybe your torque ripple is really bad as a consequence of the mechanical/magnetic design but if it's not then you'd have to suspect poor commutation or low phase current for the poor hill start behavior.
> jk


This is the stuff I dont get, thats the difference between designer and engineer I guess, cant do both.


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## tylerwatts (Feb 9, 2012)

Rip I'm sure if you can get emetor data I'm sure the folks here will help you bottom this out. Since these motors perform so well it'd be good to fix a little software or bugs rather than start your build again. What do you say sir?


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## bLdC (Jan 21, 2013)

Hi RIPPERTON,

I'm following your build threads with interest. My mechanical skills are far from advanced so I am learning a lot.

As major mentioned, it sounds like a control problem, but not just. 
With the hall sensors the controller just has no idea what the precise rotor angle is, at least when low rpm. 
It "knows" that the angle is somwhere between 0 and 120 degree ELECTRICAL, or between 120 and 240, or 240 and 360. 

So, as I see it, when starting, the motor can be 60 degree out of electrical alignment even when the sensors are perfectly placed.
You don't have mutch controll over the torque at this conditions. 
And if the rotor is out of alignment you can easily exceed the current limit without doing mutch work.

The motor that Jeff plays with has a resolver that gives easily 14Bit resolution when digitised. 
If you have precise enough sensor you can use a controller that can controll the torque from 0rpm and minimised cogging effects.
This type of controlls need some parameters to work properly, like the internal resistance and the inductance of the stator.

From your descriptions it is clear that this Kelly controller changes the algorithm when the rpm is high enough.

greetings


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## Matthijs (Jun 19, 2009)

http://www.evalbum.com/4396

While browsing evalbum I came across someone who has the same approch with dual Kelly controllers and 2 watercooled EnerTrac 603 duals. The picture shows the setup mounted in a Miata rear carrier. He will try them in a Honda insight first gen. Maybe an idea to exchange knowledge? There is something about the mechanical simplicity of the design I really like.


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## tylerwatts (Feb 9, 2012)

I have just emailed the guy to ask for info. I remember coming across that car page and loved the idea. 

It raises a good point Rip, I've not heard of cogging issues with Enertrac motors and they use Kelly controllers predominantly for their builds. Worth a chat with Enertrac I think.


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## Matthijs (Jun 19, 2009)

tylerwatts said:


> I have just emailed the guy to ask for info. I remember coming across that car page and loved the idea.
> 
> It raises a good point Rip, I've not heard of cogging issues with Enertrac motors and they use Kelly controllers predominantly for their builds. Worth a chat with Enertrac I think.


The setup is also seen on the enertrac owners youtube chanel, looks impressive!


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## Farfle (Jan 16, 2011)

The Enertrac motors run smoothly on trap-wave controllers because they have skewed stator teeth (similar to the 53xx and 40x crystalyte motors) . They lose few points of efficiency, but do run smoother.


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

Thats more like it, rear wheels.
Im looking at this Fiat 650 to put the Hub Motors in as its rear wheel drive.









http://kellycontroller.com/kl-9000m-72v9kw-bldc-motor-p-1289.html
then I just bought this from Kelly and will run it with a KHB14601 600A ctlr like the ones in the R1. Found 1 cheap for a grand.


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

Farfle said:


> The Enertrac motors run smoothly on trap-wave controllers because they have skewed stator teeth (similar to the 53xx and 40x crystalyte motors) . They lose few points of efficiency, but do run smoother.


There it is
skewed teeth
I could have done that to my stator cores before I rewound them....or
could skew the magnets.
hmm
No cant skew the magnets cause they are flat and wouldnt conform to the curve of the rotor anymore, would touch on the corners


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

Thinking about a loss of motion coupling for the CV's where they bolt onto the rotor flange.
The CV bolt flange would be slotted and bushed and use only 3 bolts instead of 4. Then would need a reset spring that would turn the motors backward through the play when stationary. Then when the throttle is applied the motors first turn through the play without load for a third of a turn and then engage the CV's and start driving.
Long shot but if skewed teeth work why bother.
I think too much....


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

Heres an incar drive video where you might see the steering wheel kicking around.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=28noTIX_ceo&feature=c4-overview&list=UUoOd7A2JVRmeuaEfGbO7f_g

Flyby
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RVVYctcWO1A&feature=c4-overview&list=UUoOd7A2JVRmeuaEfGbO7f_g


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

You can call me Mr Sustainable Thermal Dynamic form now on.
Those zany fan blades I bolted to the insides of the rotor flanges account for over 70% of my cooling when underway.
And the TrailTech speedo temp guage is my favorite new toy, Just took the Mira down the M7 and the gauge sits on 65C when at 105kmh but when I took the off ramp at Parramatta and spent 5 minutes in traffic turning around the temp went up to 78C. Soon as I rejoined the M7 to return to Blacktown the temp went back down to 65C.
Took some laser readings when I got home. Windings were 104C
and the rotor was 70C.


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

Kelly KL9000M brushless PMAC, radial gap. has hall sensor in the small housing and a splined shaft. Weighes 20kg and they say it goes well with a 72v 700A KHB controller. Thats 56kW so Il have to run it with a 144v 600A KHB turned down to 400A for 54kW.
Ordered last Wednesday, received Monday afternoon. $950
but now Kelly have a 20% off sale starting today so If I had waited another week I would have got another 10% off .

Anyway pulled it apart and started designing the cooling system which will be a 138cfm 120mm fan blowing down through the hall housing, past the rotor and out the shaft end frame.
This will be killer with a centrifugal clutch in between it and the Terios diff.










Hall rotor.









Teeth and nice winding job









shaft end









120mm fan


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## jonescg (Nov 3, 2010)

Why the centrifugal clutch, Dan? Just to avoid any jerky take-offs?

I thought about using this system for the CRX, as the AFM140 is short enough to fit right in front. I since decided that it's going to stay in the race bike, so I might end up using a Brusa transaxle from Metric Mind (when I have oodles of money, of course).


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

jonescg said:


> Why the centrifugal clutch, Dan? Just to avoid any jerky take-offs?


To avoid cogging.
This is a 6 pole motor and like Major said there might still be cogging issues even if there is a 5.5:1 reduction in the diff.


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## tylerwatts (Feb 9, 2012)

That seems a smart motor for the price Rip! Why, if I may, are you not running at the higher voltage without the reduction in current? Ie potential for higher power but actually the torque curve will hold out longer and you needn't over work the motor at speed. That make sense? Of need not instruct YOU on motor design or control but the extra voltage simply overcomes bemf for longer so the torque holds out, therefore the same current can continue to generate torque to higher rpms rather than turning to heat at higher rpm... I'm basically curious to why you have chosen to derate the torque so. Do you mind sharing please? Thanks


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## tylerwatts (Feb 9, 2012)

Also Rip, why did you not go for a smaller Mars 0913 or 1012 motor? The 913 has stated higher torque and is more compact.


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

RIPPERTON said:


> This will be killer with a centrifugal clutch in between it and the Terios diff.


A clutch is a bad idea.


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

tylerwatts said:


> That seems a smart motor for the price Rip! I'm basically curious to why you have chosen to derate the torque so.


Watts = Heat, but then again Ive added a cooling fan so I might be able to run a higher current.
Then theres the dreaded Kelly over amp cuttout or is it an overpower cuttout.
SO this motor can apparently handle 700A  but if I turn the 14601 up to 100% output theres an extra 25kW (81kW) over what Kelly have been testing this motor at.


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

tylerwatts said:


> Also Rip, why did you not go for a smaller Mars 0913 or 1012 motor? The 913 has stated higher torque and is more compact.


913 is a little bit too small for this weight of car.


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

major said:


> A clutch is a bad idea.


One is indeed intrigued...
but you know me Im going to satisfy my own curiosity.


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## tylerwatts (Feb 9, 2012)

Oh Rip you talk of 54kw but why do Kelly quote it as a 9kw motor? Is this meant to be a continuous rating? 54kw is impressive and has my attention as an alternative to my Azure AC24LS now, especially for my bike commuter. The lower rpm and higher torque are attractive. 

What performance are you hoping to get from this setup? And was there a particular reason for going with Kelly and not a bigger Chinese PMAC motor? 
Thanks!


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

tylerwatts said:


> Oh Rip you talk of 54kw but why do Kelly quote it as a 9kw motor? Is this meant to be a continuous rating?


One doesnt actually pay any attention to the rated power of a motor.
Kelly match this motor with a KHB72701 and Fany tells me they have a test car with this motor/ctlr set and its done quite a few km's.

But the coolest thing about this motor is it has skewed teeth !!!!!
so I wont need a centrifugal clutch.
I just pointed a torch down the airgap and its like a gun barrel in there.

Awesome


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## tylerwatts (Feb 9, 2012)

One doesn't or I don't? That's good to know. I guess it helps you having a good contact in the company. 
EDIT: don't mean any attitude, it didn't go down well in writing, sorry. It is good to know the ratings of the motor are conservative. Similar I guess to the other Chinese motors the likes of what Ruckus is using with his Auzy controller. END EDIT. 

Skewed teeth, brilliant! I take it that's the stator teeth, and the IPMs are parallel to the rotor axis, therefore you get progressive 'pull' on the rotor and thus little cogging? I'm struggling with the principle of how this works with the timing of the motor, without sacrificing efficiency or ultimate power/torque. I'll check the web for some guidance. 

Sounds like a brilliant motor then though. I'm keen to see how it performs with the stronger controller and higher voltage. What is the peak rpm?


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## tylerwatts (Feb 9, 2012)

http://www.motioncontrolonline.org/i4a/pages/index.cfm?pageID=4593

So a few sites saying similar. The benefit being the gradual transition from pole to pole with less fluctuation or pulsing of torque hence less cogging. But at the trade off of some torque. 

Do you know the output rating of this motor with a decent controller Rip?


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

tylerwatts said:


> One doesn't or I don't?


Generally one doesn't, its more like a name than a rating



tylerwatts said:


> Skewed teeth, brilliant! I take it that's the stator teeth,


yes, stator.


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

More awesome news
Fany gets 4000rpm on their 72v system (no load)
So assuming they actually have 80v, this motor will spin to 6800 on 136v
Divided by the 5.5 diff ratio = 1236rpm = 115 kmh.
So loaded it will just crack the 100kmh mark.
Winning....


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

Just did a run without using regen at all.
It made me cringe every time I thought of all that lovely free kinetic energy being converted to...heat, but all in the name of research.
using regen I get 92km
without regen it did 73km
Thats 20% less.
or I get 27% extra range by using regen.

Top of charge is 136v
Bottom of charge is 120v


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## Bowser330 (Jun 15, 2008)

RIPPERTON said:


> Just did a run without using regen at all.
> It made me cringe every time I thought of all that lovely free kinetic energy being converted to...heat, but all in the name of research.
> using regen I get 92km
> without regen it did 73km
> ...


Thank you for the continued research.

I would like to clarify what was previously posted, if you don't mind.

Kelly sells a BLDC Motor for $799. 
The website shows its a 16kw peak motor from the data table, 69V 285A = 19665watts * 81%eff = 16kw
http://kellycontroller.com/kl-9000m-72v9kw-bldc-motor-p-1289.html

The motor has currently been tested with the 72V 700A controller.

However you are using the KHB14601,24-144V,600A controller.
http://kellycontroller.com/khb1460124-144v600aopto-bldc-controllerwith-regen-p-829.html

You have proved that the motor can be run at 144V and therefore could have 57kw input * 80%eff = 46kw of output power.

Do you have any data from the Kelly or any dyno data to confirm that you are seeing 46kw from this 16kw motor? 

Thank you.


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

Bowser330 said:


> However you are using the KHB14601,24-144V,600A controller.
> http://kellycontroller.com/khb1460124-144v600aopto-bldc-controllerwith-regen-p-829.html
> You have proved that the motor can be run at 144V and therefore could have 57kw input * 80%eff = 46kw of output power.


Where do you get this stuff from ?
I havnt even built the Kelly motor into the car. Havnt even turned it on the bench.
The only data I have so far is with the Inboard Hub Motors


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## Bowser330 (Jun 15, 2008)

RIPPERTON said:


> Where do you get this stuff from ?
> I havnt even built the Kelly motor into the car. Havnt even turned it on the bench.
> The only data I have so far is with the Inboard Hub Motors


My apologies, after you were discussing the BLDC car motor you had posted some data about rpm ranges and about efficiency of w and w/o regen and i mistook that for the car bldc build and not your bike build. In a previous post you had mentioned using the 144V BLDC controller, I just jumped the gun on your progress with it and the BLDC motor.

I wish I had the ability to do the testing and experimenting that you do, I will sit back and be more patient.


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## tylerwatts (Feb 9, 2012)

Bowser 
Rip has 2 bldc motors direct drive in the Mira currently, hence thread title. This is the data. Nothing to do with his R1! 

Unfortunately the direct drive motors suffer serious cogging deficiencies at take off so have little to no starting torque. This is why he is changing the drive to the single Kelly motor driving through a 5.5:1 differential and using said controller. 

The info he has on the motor so far comes from a contact at Kelly in China who states they use this motor with the mentioned controller already and are getting peak 54kw output. 

You correctly mention the ratings declared in the Kelly documentation but Rip is expecting much more from the little motor. He will run at higher voltage for a broader power band and reduced current to protect the motor but still achieve peak power and decent acceleration. 

Hope that helps. Don't worry about being patient as Rip doesn't hang around! This will be running in no time.


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

So I took my clamp Ammeter along for a drive today.
Got it down through the hole infront of the gear shift lever and around one of the main battery cables running up from the rear pack.
60kmh, flat road, it pulls 34 A, x 130v = about 4.4kW
100kmh on a nice flat section of the A4 it pulls 80 A, x 130v = 10.4kW.
Flat chat full throttle 115kmh it pulls 115 A x 130v = 15kW.
I saw it go up as high as 180 A at lower speeds but its not possible to load it up as it just drops out. It should pull 400A accelerating from 60kmh.


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

Opened up the Hall end motor frame for the cooling air.


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

Never had this much trouble connecting a Kelly up to a motor.
Took at least an hour.
This is a second hand almost new KHB14601 just like the ones I use in the R1 but had been used to fire up (literally) an ME0913 on a friends GyroCopter.
The 600 was a bit too much for the Motenergy and it threw its magnets and shattered the motor case.
I rebuilt the motor and bought the Kelly for $900.
I got the hall wires half way sorted when I notice the Kelly was making the same crackly noises as one of the 200A Kellys on the Mira.
So had to reflash the microchips. Then it was easier to hear when the phases were timed properly. The KL9000M spins way to fast on the 168v of the R1 LiPo pack so didnt give it full throttle.
Will now continue modding the motor with the fan cooling system and try to design another fan for the spline end of the motor that will sit on the shaft.


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

I can feel the Engineering Gods moving this new motor project along quite quickly.
Heres the fan adapter plate in 3mm alloy.










And a friend of mine suggested this. Wire cut a spline into the bore of a taper lock and weld a laser cut flange onto the trimmed down sprocket. Quote for wire cut was $100, next year though.


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## tylerwatts (Feb 9, 2012)

What is the wire cutting Rip? I'm not familiar. What will you do with it?


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

tylerwatts said:


> What is the wire cutting Rip? I'm not familiar. What will you do with it?


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pBueWfzb7P0

I take the taper lock bush to the EDM shop and they design the spline and make a cnc tool path for the wire.
Its a bit like a band saw but the wire doesnt move or rotate it just arcs.
They make Formula One transmission gears this way


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## tylerwatts (Feb 9, 2012)

Oh EDM ok. Cool stuff EDM. That sounds like a great price too! So that will bolt to the diff and slide over the motor spline? Neat. 
Is there a way of joining the motor to the diff rigidly? How will you hold them rigidly aligned? 

Ideally if I were doing this, which I've considered a few times, I would want to machine a flanged casing to drop the diff internals into and mate directly to the motor for a single rigid structure. Bit pricey though. Ideally this would involve splining the pinion gear direct onto the motor shaft spline to shorten the assembly. I thought of it when the penny dropped about EDMing the spline into the taperlock.


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

tylerwatts said:


> Is there a way of joining the motor to the diff rigidly? How will you hold them rigidly aligned?


Flange to flange no coupling.
Hard to do but if I get it perfectly machined it should work.
If not I can use a torque plate like an automatic transmission
between the crankshaft and torque converter.


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## tylerwatts (Feb 9, 2012)

Oh ok cool. Sounds good!


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## Bowser330 (Jun 15, 2008)

I look forward to your testing of what the true peak out put of the motor is. This testing could really change the way people see these BLDC motors....


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## tylerwatts (Feb 9, 2012)

I agree Bowser. I think part of the misunderstanding is in the ratings for these motors. And especially Chinese built products where the continuous rating may be lower because of more cost effective material choice but the potential peak output is still just as good. 

I thought similar of Ruckus' Scott drive NZ controller mated to the Chinese 55kw PMAC motor. I believe he has seen over 200kw with a beefed up controller through the same 50kg motor. That is great power density. 

We eagerly await progress Rip.


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

CNC'd boss hard push fit onto motor shaft under drive end bearing with M4 tapped holes for the fan.









This fan might be wrong, too much axial height in the blades, touches the end frame and or the windings.
May have to make 2 fans stacked with twice the number of blades.










CNC'd windows in the end frame. There will be plenty of room in this area as the motor will be held by M12 jacking bolts / threaded rods from brackets off the diff.


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

Curved blades peened around a stepped block.



















Sharpened leading edges with a Dremmel


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

Some performance data on 72v


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

> So assuming Kelly actually have 80v, this motor will spin to 6800 on 136v


Just spun the Kelly motor up on the Mira battery at 136v.
Just as calculated it did 6680rpm on full throttle and didnt throw any magnets .
Fan blows a gale too but still not finished with blade design....
Might try a straight faced blade on a 40 degree angle.


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=esHDaxz06N4&feature=c4-overview&list=UUoOd7A2JVRmeuaEfGbO7f_g


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## tylerwatts (Feb 9, 2012)

Awesome progress Rip. I'd like to mention the challenge for your fan of providing good thrust at low rpm to give decent cooling will contradict any performance at high rpm where a shallower blade is better. 
The trouble will be that a low speed fan will stall at high rpm and not give much thrust, whereas a high speed fan will not provide low speed thrust. 

I have 2 suggestions:

1- external electric fan, which is simple and not what you are going for. 

2- the exotic option. I used to design Aero engine fan blades. We used the deflection of material under different pressure and cf load to change it's aerodynamic properties such that at low speed it can have a steeper attack angle for higher thrust, then as pressure and cf increase the blade twists and straightens out to improve high speed aerodynamics and give efficient thrust. One trick is using the correct material. Thinning the tail of your blades will help alot, and curving the tips out away from the windings in the direction of airflow will stiffen them at low rpm and as cf increases they will flatten out and reduce the angle of the blades to prevent stalling or 'cavitation'. 

Another key high speed improvement is to not sharpen the leading edge, but round it off like a leading edge of an aerofoil which will naturally induce low pressure beneath the aerofoil to improve high speed air flow. That is to say you must thin the blade from the winding side so that the fat side of the aerofoil leading edge is facing the windings, and the low pressure is opposite and moves air away in support of the blade profile. 

We could totally over design this cooling fan if we get carried away, so I leave it to you, but those are my basic suggestions. An axial electric fan on the other end like Kostov use is probably simplest. I'd use a thermister to regulate fan speed according to core winding temperature ie higher rpm for higher temp, and probably use an rc controller to power it, maybe driving an outrunner rc motor too. Complexity is creeping back in though so I'll shut up now. 

Night sir, and fellow guests.


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

Happy New Year all DIYers 
Already 2014 down here in OZ. Just spent the evening under the Sydney Harbour Bridge watching all our tax payer $$$ go up in spectacular fireworks.

Tyler my knowledge of aerodynamics is limited but have learnt a lot about curved blades in refrigeration blowers where a very aggressive forward facing blade tip seems to work.
In my case I think any fan I design will exceed the amount of air I can get past and through the rotor so no point trying too hard.
Anyway heres the latest design where Ive used the space inside the windings to run a steep flat blade which has a relatively slow speed running at a small diameter and a shallower flat blade above the windings at a large diameter. Only 6 blades.



















Heres the scraps.


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## tylerwatts (Feb 9, 2012)

Wow your production rate is impressive Rip! I take it the motor turns counter-clockwise then. That design looks really good I must say. The brushed surface finish is good, just give it a nice evenly rounded leading edge wherever there is a leading edge and it'll perform brilliantly! 

Happy new year sir!


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

Just completed an Epic journey over the Blue Mountains in Sydneys West.
It wasnt entirely without its fails.








The job was to get from Kings Park to Little Hartley (101km) a lot of which was up hill, to a friends place for our AEVA meeting and recharge there off solar panels. 
I originally planned to go the red route and stop half way to connect one of my 175v R1 packs but then decided to avoid working on the car I would go the blue route and stop off in Kurrajong Hills at another friends place and recharge there also off solar panels and continue up the "back way" (yellow route). 
Recharging at Kurrajong.








As it turns out the "back way" was actually too steep for the mira's hub motors !!!. The tight winding s's meant I had to slow down to below 40kmh where the Kellys would start to ramp down power and then gradually grind to a halt. I tried 3 times to get a good run off but in the end I had to turn around and go up the front way which being the Great Western Hway had a shallower gradient and bigger turns.
Of course now even though I had a full charge my distancing was way out and I would have to find a place to recharge near Katoomba.
So I charged on relentlessly and left it to luck. Back tracking to Richmond, (green route) I could take a short cut before Penrith and join the Great Western at Springwood then pulled over at a BP service station in Wentworth Falls.
Found some outdoor power points behind the ice freezer and plugged in for about 40 minutes. Let them know of course, they were fine. I had to turn the ice freezer off as it was tripping the breaker. Didnt tell them about the freezer.









So now Im on the road again, going straight through Katoomba and on to Mount Victoria when I look at my Batrium screen and some cells have crashed !!!, Jumped on the regen pedal and pull into the Post Office and sheepishly asked " could I trouble you for some electricity"
got a strange look as I explained I was completely mad and was driving my electric vehicle over the mountains just for fun.
The post master was cool and I got my extension cord out and plugged in for half an hour.
bought a sausage roll with sauce and gave him $10
Little did I know it was all down hill from Mount Vic to Little Hartley and possibly could have regened my way down the hill but the pack was too crashed and needed electrons stat.








So I finally made it to Little Hartley clocking a total of 137km for what was supposed to be a 101km trip and promptly started siphoning off 10 odd kWh of good clean solar electrons while stuffing my face with Hawaiian Pizza in the restaurant across the road.
Of course I was late and got lots of cheers and laughs as I walked in.


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## tylerwatts (Feb 9, 2012)

Brilliant trip Rip. That sounds quite adventurous. 

Any progress with the new motor and diff assembly?


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

Now you thought that would have been about as much fun as anyone could handle in a day.....nope. Heres the real fun bit.
I made it all the way home without having to recharge. Plus I even had some left in the battery so I did a few laps around the block to bottom it.
Total 116km from an 8.2kWh pack.
I know this run was mostly gravity assisted but the math here is going to be quite interesting even for someone who doesnt do math, like how much energy can one harvest from a 1km vertical descent over 62km.
Mount Victoria to Penrith.
Granted there wasnt actually much regening going on but there was a lot of throttle off coasting and very light throttle running at 80kmh.
So normally at that speed I would get 82km from the charge but I got an extra 34km free from gravity.


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

tylerwatts said:


> Brilliant trip Rip. That sounds quite adventurous.
> Any progress with the new motor and diff assembly?


Thanks Tyler
I got the diff soda blasted and it came out like new.
Started making the brackets that will hold the motor and got the wire cut taper lock bush fitted to the motors splined shaft.



















I also have to devise some kind of oil feed system for the pinion bearing.
Heres the feed gallery going to the front bearing.


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

So if my car does 82km on 8.2kWh (coincidence) I calculate that 34km uses 3.4kWh so the 1km vertical descent is worth 3.4kWh.
Which paradoxically also means it would cost me an extra 3.4kWh of energy to climb that same hill as wind and rolling resistance works against me equally in both directions.


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

Nope thats wrong.
wind and rolling resistance would reduce the amount of regen energy harvested on descent as it would be helping me to stop,
but it would increase the amount of drive energy used to climb the hill so I would use more than 3.4kWh extra to climb.

getting there..


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

OK the beat goes on, diff is mounted on the motor, just have to laser cut the flexible flange that gets welded onto the taper lock sprocket.


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## tylerwatts (Feb 9, 2012)

Wow that looks good Rip. What were you looking at the oil feed for? Are you running the diff upside down? Looks like the clearance is the same either way round.


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

tylerwatts said:


> Wow that looks good Rip. What were you looking at the oil feed for? Are you running the diff upside down? Looks like the clearance is the same either way round.



Vertical axis.
the diff points up with the motor on top.
The pinion bearing will run dry if I dont feed oil to it


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## tylerwatts (Feb 9, 2012)

Oh right, inverted to the image above. Ok. Yes, definitely needs loob haha. Hey can you fit a sealed bearing and use a heavy oil and/or oil additive film lubricant? There are special oil additives that have special long oil chain molecules that cling to the surface and coat it so should ride round the crown wheel and coat the pinion gear. 

What do you plan to do to feed the gear? I thought also you could tap the gallery with a feed line and run a small oil pump. Not ideal cause of complexity but robust.


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

tylerwatts said:


> Hey can you fit a sealed bearing and use a heavy oil and/or oil additive film lubricant? What do you plan to do to feed the gear? I thought also you could tap the gallery with a feed line and run a small oil pump. Not ideal cause of complexity but robust.


The pinion has 2 tapered roller bearings, cant get those in sealed plus theres a crush tube between them to maintain preload so it doesnt wobble.
Im going to use the oil sling effect coming off the crown. Position an aluminium tube opening right near the perimiter of the crown to catch the oil centrifuging off it.
The crown will be 2 thirds submerged at standstill so the pinion gear will be lubed well.
I do have a small oil gear pump but that might be overkill and draw precious power.

http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/151076508784?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1438.l2649


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## tylerwatts (Feb 9, 2012)

Rip have you considered the frothing that will occur to the oil with running so deep in the oil? Although complex I'd err towards having a small sump design in the housing with a drain down into the pump feeding into the pinion gallery where the oil falls back down over the crown wheel. 

Is there no tunnel in the Mira to position the motor? I'm sure we discussed it before. Was it metalwork required?


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## John (Sep 11, 2007)

Could you fit a tube into the diff casing to catch oil throw from the diffs hypoid gear to gravity feed into the pinion bearings. See attached skratch pad sketch.


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

tylerwatts said:


> Rip have you considered the frothing that will occur to the oil with running so deep in the oil? Although complex I'd err towards having a small sump design in the housing with a drain down into the pump feeding into the pinion gallery where the oil falls back down over the crown wheel.
> 
> Is there no tunnel in the Mira to position the motor? I'm sure we discussed it before. Was it metalwork required?


Frothing would make the oil lighter overall and easier to lift (guessing)
trying to avoid a pump at all costs.
The steering rack is in the way of the tunnel.
Thanks for the math John, probably wont be using 90w. want to use the thinnest oil possible. Will consult a diff specialist.

The more I take this thing apart the more I find. Theres another gallery leading to between the 2 bearings which would dump any oil I could get up there. Lucky I took the crown assembly out. The bearings are a bit rough to so will replace them.


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

got it !
Ive created a scraper block that will catch oil slung off the crown wheel 
(red arrow)and cram it upwards through the square hole (blue arrow) into the cavity thats between the 2 pinion bearings. Hopefully it will also cram it up through the front bearing and then return down through the round hole (green arrow).
A friend told me about this low viscosity Hypoid oil that should keep drag to a minimum.
Ive also decided to turn the diff in the opposite direction so the pinion is pushing the crown wheel instead of pulling it. means throwing the motor in the other direction and making a new fan. 
I had a feeling that fan was too easy.


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## tylerwatts (Feb 9, 2012)

Rip, good idea except at low speed you won't have enough rpm of the crown wheel to fling the oil. If you can replace the bearings for not too much cost I would say try it. The optimum would be ceramic bearings but I hear your wallet leaving the room at the thought... 

Also, the hypoid oil is good, Toyota use it in their offset diffs, but the thinner viscosity will be harder to fling through the gallery at low speed. Better at high speed but be careful of full torque straight after getting into the car when everything is dry. Just a caution.


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

I found some Castrol light viscosity EP oil $30 a liter 
seems as thin as transmission fluid.
I shortened the diff cover for better ground clearance and welded a plug in.









I got the rotor out of the motor and was quite impressed with the way they wrapped the magnets with something like fiber glass to stop them centrifuging. Set it in the lathe and machined the face of the flange, it was way out.









Took the stator down to the motor rewinders and more good news, its already laquered, its just that you cant see it. The rewinder guy said its a special technique factories use to apply very small amounts.
Note skewed teeth.


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

tylerwatts said:


> If you can replace the bearings for not too much cost I would say try it.


Yep, Im at the try it and see stage, If the top taper bearing fails Il just go back to the drawing board.


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## tylerwatts (Feb 9, 2012)

That looks good. I'm keen to hear what performance you get from the motor. When do you think it'll be ready for installation? Just curious


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

Just did a stocktake here at Ripperton Labs and apparently we have a surplus of Batshit Mad.
Rigged up 2 NangFengs to switch between the 175v R1 pack and the 136v Mira pack.








Relocated the DCDC high voltage positive to the output side of the Kilovac main contactor so its caps would be precharged every time I swapped from pack to pack.
Joined the negatives from both battery packs onto one standoff as they dont need to be switched.









Removed the passenger seat (11kg) and secured one of the R1 packs down into the floor with a tiedown and ran 2 sets of 16mm cable up to the motor bay. Should make for an extra 60km.









Going back up the Blue Mountains tomorrow morning to Little Hartley where I might get both packs recharge by solar power.
This time I will run the 136v Mira pack from the base of the climb to see how far up the hill it gets and log its efficiency during the climb.


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

And the answer is....62km. The climb used an extra 2kWh as it shortened the range by 20km (82-62) but the descent harvested an extra 3.4kWh ! I figure the regen used on descent was worth 1.4kWh but then theres the inverted effect of wind and rolling resistance which means regen would be worth more than 1.4kWh. ?
Wrong, just had a logic surge, wind and rolling resistance should not be factored into these climb-descent calcs because they are comparisons to flat road driving which also has wind and rolling resistance already pre factored in. Wind and rolling resistance would be the same whether you are going up, down or flat so we dont have to think about it.

So we can say that gravity is worth 2kWh per 1km vertical drop whether its working against you or for you because I didnt use much regen on the way up the hill. 1.4kWh is 41% of 3.4kWh so on descent, regen extends range by 41% and on flat ground regen extends range by 27%.

Anyway after I fitted the NangFengs I rebooted the system and suddenly the Mira BMS was malfunctioning. Didnt have time to fix it so I was flying blind, not the thing you want when you are doing distance testing because you cant see a crashed cell. I could only get out very periodically at the bottom of charge, pop the bonnet and check the overall battery voltage with a meter as I dont have a dash voltmeter yet.

I switched over to the 136v pack in Emu Plains at the base of the climb up the Blue Mountains HighWay and made it all the way up to Mount Victoria. 
It was raining half the time so the wipers would have used a bit of energy. Got out at the same Post Office and checked my voltage...112v  thats a bit crashed so I switched back to the 175v and cruised across the top to the very lip of the steep descent down to Little Hartley, pulled over and again switched back to the 136v and proceeded down the 300 vertical meter drop using regen to bring the 136 out of its crash. Got to my destination at the bottom and after connecting the charger,
measured 124v !
Even charging was a hassle as the BMS wouldnt automatically switch the charger off so had to count down 2 hours while eating pizza.
Another fun drive with lots of DATA.


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

Another first during this trip was "I got noticed"
A couple walking on the footpath actually noticed my car was making a wierd sound as I regened down hill toward a red light. The loud moaning coming from the hubs probably sounded like a train pulling into the station. As the light went green they swivel necked as I hummed past them. 

After the trip I got stuck into the BMS and found a dead cell monitor in the rear pack, replaced it and rebooted the pack and all cell blocks were even.
Quite a relief as I really thought I had reverse polarity'd one cell.


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

Guinness World Records have refused my record application because they say the concept or parameters of "most efficient electric passenger car" can not be standardized.


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## tylerwatts (Feb 9, 2012)

That seems reasonable. What criteria and parameters would you set Rip? There are so many variables I understand the response. 
What did you ask for as the basis for the record?


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

tylerwatts said:


> That seems reasonable. What criteria and parameters would you set Rip? There are so many variables I understand the response.
> What did you ask for as the basis for the record?


Maybe they saw that the measurement process would have been time consuming and expensive, requiring electrical engineers.
I chose the free application which normally takes 6-8 weeks.
The fast track costs 700 Pounds.
I dont actually see the problem with standardizing.
You take an existing gas powered motor vehicle, convert it to electric and measure the electrical energy used while driving over a certain distance using a Watt meter. The start finish should be the same place so theres no elevation change over the covered distance.
Not rocket science.
I guess the type of roads driven on could never be identical between any 2 cars tested in 2 different cities or countries.
The thing that makes my Mira efficient isnt motor technology, its driver technique ie how much kinetic energy can you hoover up out of thin air.
Its all in the left foot.


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## PStechPaul (May 1, 2012)

You would probably need to include size and weight along with Wh/mile to level the playing field. The weight metric is easy, but the size may be problematic. For an enclosed vehicle, the volume can be determined, but for something like a bike you may need to use the volume of the driver and passenger(s) if any. Of course, the terrain also affects the energy usage, as does driving technique, temperature, wind, etc. It would be difficult to control all of these parameters except in an environmentally controlled wind tunnel with a dynamometer and robot driver.


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## John (Sep 11, 2007)

A person could still frig the test by doing circuits inside a blimp hanger (no wind) on a perfectly level surface at 2 km/h (or some low speed optimised for efficiency). The vehicle would need to be road legal to preclude the use of solid wheels to gain a rolling resistance advantage.


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

Out with the old in with the new.
3000km on the hubs and Ive had enough of them cutting out.
The new KL9 sits low enough to have heaps of room up top for the fan.


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

Actually got the 2 flanges to bolt up tight and run smooth without a flexible coupling. Call that a fluke.
Left the pinion oil seal out so I can see if there is any oil getting up to the top bearing when I spin the motor up.
Did make 2 new fans in 1mm aluminium, one sits on top of the other so there are 12 blades. Fitted the temp sensor for the TrailTech dash directly to the coil loops on the drive end (hot end) of the motor.


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## Bowser330 (Jun 15, 2008)

Excited! 
Can't wait to see how much power you can extract from the upgraded KL9.


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## tylerwatts (Feb 9, 2012)

Looking good Rip. How are you going to control the torque of the motor assy in that orientation? It is going to spin opposite to rotation direction and flip backwards against the bulkhead. A simple triangular plate over the top around the fan flange with a folded flange to bolt to the bulkhead or a strut brace would be plenty. Just an observation and I apologise if you are aware and I'm just interfering.


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

tylerwatts said:


> It is going to spin opposite to rotation direction and flip backwards against the bulkhead.


There is a torque reaction between the motor and diff but that is adequately 
addressed with the motor mounting brackets. 
The drive torque reaction you are referring to exists only between the differential and subframe.
ie the pinion will try to walk around the crown as load increases and the diff will try to turn backwards as the wheels turn forward.
Its essential that only the differential be bolted off in at least 2 places to the subframe to address drive torque reaction.
If I hold the motor up high to restrain DTR it will place strain on the coupling and motor mount brackets. Not good.
After the diff is bolted off to the subframe I will then put a secondary clamp from the motor top frame to the firewall to assist with inertial loads during braking or frontal impact so again the weight of the motor does not strain the motor mount brackets and coupling.


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

Bowser330 said:


> Excited!
> Can't wait to see how much power you can extract from the upgraded KL9.


Me too 
Im going to run the 600A Kelly at full power but I will build a detent spring into the throttle pedal as an economy mode or power limiter because there is no throttle mapping in the Kellys.
The detent spring will come into tension at about 1/3 throttle and I will be able to feel it with my foot and use that position at low speed. Then I can push past the detent spring at higher speed where the Kelly wont trip out.


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

RIPPERTON said:


> After the diff is bolted off to the subframe I will then put a secondary clamp from the motor top frame to the firewall to assist with inertial loads during braking or frontal impact so again the weight of the motor does not strain the motor mount brackets and coupling.


Just realized I cant do this because the subframe is rubber mounted to the chassis. The motor will be moving around a bit in relation to the firewall/chassis so I have to leave the motor standing supported only by the diff and mount brackets.


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## tylerwatts (Feb 9, 2012)

Ah ok. I don't think there will be too much inertial loading on the motor. The mating should be sufficient. 

I'm also keen to read what performance you get. How much current will the Kelly put out roughly at 1/3 throttle position?


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## johnjcbs (Oct 10, 2012)

I like how fast this build is progressing.


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

Just fits









Got new Drive shafts with the inner CV joints removed for cheaper from the factory that makes them.









10mm thick alloy plate coming from the rear section of the subframe.
3mm angle going across the front of the diff and there will be 2 more pieces of 3mm angle going diagonally down from the back of the diff again to the rear of the subframe for a 3 point mount.


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

It runs !
and the oil scraper works !!
I spun the motor up to about 2000rpm and gear oil flooded the pinion seal area but didnt overflow meaning its draining back into the sump. Used a full liter of oil.
Now I have to take the motor off and reinstall the pinion seal.


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## tylerwatts (Feb 9, 2012)

Rip what is it like at low rpm? Any oil showing up?


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## poprock (Apr 29, 2010)

Good work. Will you still use the standard pressure vent or will it require a different position?


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

tylerwatts said:


> Rip what is it like at low rpm? Any oil showing up?


Its only at 1700rpm or 2000 that it starts to flood but I dont spend much time at all below that speed so I think it will do the job.



poprock said:


> Good work. Will you still use the standard pressure vent or will it require a different position?


I stupidly welded the original pressure vent shut and screwed it back in to plug the hole. At the moment there is no vent so it might make a mess and push oil out but will wing it and see what happens.
Coming to Castle Hill tonight ? will have it rolling by then.
Dan


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

Freekin awesome performance !!
Only does 105kmh top speed now but because Im able to adjust hall timing I can tune it so it pulls cleanly and the mid range boost from 40kmh up is just pure EV performance. Instant street fighter grunt. 
I can keep it floored all the way up to 105kmh without any cutting out.
This car now has more power and better torque than the 660cc petrol engine it was born with.
It now does hill starts on any incline so the skewed teeth worked well there.
The single 600A controller still ramps down at low speed even though its a completely different controller but less so that the twin 200A's.
The K9L is smoother and quieter than the twin hubs but the Kelly thumps on rolling throttle up and also initial application of regen.
Regen still trips out harshly if I push it too hard.
Still have to get its 0 to 100kmh time and I think it deserves a dyno run now.
The interesting thing is when I did its first test run it still cut out !!!!
I shit my self and thought I would be stuck with this cutting out problem for the rest of my life but I started to play with the Hall timing and as soon as I advanced it a bit, the cutting out cleared its self .
So I now have an idea of how to fix the twin hubs. Hall timing advance module and then stick them in the back of a beetle or a smart car.


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## johnjcbs (Oct 10, 2012)

That's great to hear,can't wait to see another video of it.


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## tylerwatts (Feb 9, 2012)

Post removed


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

Dyno run with BMS V'drop and phase cable Ammeter.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eZiB0ltTM4A&feature=c4-overview&list=UUoOd7A2JVRmeuaEfGbO7f_g
43hp
196Nm.
My electricity bill jumped from 7kWh to 11.8kWh for this time last year.


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## Lipo Louis (Oct 29, 2012)

Nice ! 

I wonder what was your input power ? Cell average about 3.15v per cell and 350A peak ? But how many cells in serie ?


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## tylerwatts (Feb 9, 2012)

Post removed


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

Isaac's are just more usefull than James's, (Newtons versus Watts).
Heres a caveman Mira doing 56kW and a paltry 18Nm at about 60-80kmh.
Mine has half the kW but 10.8 times the torque for the win.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pGVOZRQjecA


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## tylerwatts (Feb 9, 2012)

Post removed


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

One last problem to get through.
The motor / ctlr jerks as I lift the throttle off or makes a thud in the drive train. Almost as annoying as cutting out.
May have to go a little deeper into Hall timing.
One really unexpected thing is my range hasnt changed.
Im getting better performance but still getting 85km with a hiway stint and 92 in the back streets.
Thinking about water cooling for the ctlr but the 2 fans will do for the motor.


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## tylerwatts (Feb 9, 2012)

Post removed


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## kennybobby (Aug 10, 2012)

*controller ramp function?*



RIPPERTON said:


> One last problem to get through.
> The motor / ctlr jerks as I lift the throttle off or makes a thud in the drive train.


Does your controller have capability to program acceleration and deceleration rates for velocity transitions? This is typically found in servo motion controllers for CNC machines, but it may be useful for an EV to limit deceleration rates and avoid inducing jerk. 

Or what about a mismatched regen setting in the controller? 

Does the problem occur when letting off the throttle slowly to change motor speed at a lower rate than just suddenly lifting?


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## circuit (Jan 16, 2012)

I can confirm that kelly does have this jerking action. Saw it with 400A 144V controller. Despite whole throttle, brake, settings and sensor manipulations we have tried, no solution was found. I would not use kelly again.


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

Its Hall timing.
Ive retarded it a bit and the thud has lessened.
Its only when the throttle comes back down to zero.


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## kennybobby (Aug 10, 2012)

RIPPERTON said:


> Its only when the throttle comes back down to zero.


i wonder if the controller interprets zero throttle position as a commanded speed to which it is in a closed-loop mode trying to make the hall signals go to zero (thus reversing the current to the windings as a brake), or if zero just means to release the winding currents, ignore the hall inputs and let the motor freewheel. 

Maybe a clue--does the car roll backwards if sitting on an incline with zero throttle, or does it try to hold?


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

kennybobby said:


> i wonder if the controller interprets zero throttle position as a commanded speed to which it is in a closed-loop mode trying to make the hall signals go to zero (thus reversing the current to the windings as a brake), or if zero just means to release the winding currents, ignore the hall inputs and let the motor freewheel.
> 
> Maybe a clue--does the car roll backwards if sitting on an incline with zero throttle, or does it try to hold?


It will roll in either direction with the ctlr on.
The thud does feel like reverse current for a split second.
If I have engine brake set to about 2% it only does it on throttle lift but if I have 0% engine brake it does it on throttle up from zero AND regen up from zero but not on throttle lift.
If I cant fix it with Hall timing I will let Fany know about it.
Am worried about ctlr getting hot with the wrong Hall timing.

I have cnc'd an opening in the case like the R1 ctlr's and fitted an 80mm fan to run air through the unit in the same loop, down the central cap chamber toward the micro's then back up the sides along the fett chambers to vent holes near the batt +/- terminals.

Also mounted the ctlr on the side of the motor via 2 massive acetal outrigger beams. The firewall was too abstract to try to mount it to.


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

I just lost faith in the Guinness Book of Records.
They wouldnt consider my category for most efficient electric passenger vehicle.
But today I watched their TV show where a guy put a posty bike engine into a pram and stood on a small trailer behind it with a plastic baby doll in the pram and drove it down a drag strip.


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## h0tr0d (Mar 26, 2012)

RIPPERTON said:


> I just lost faith in the Guinness Book of Records.
> They wouldnt consider my category for most efficient electric passenger vehicle.


Why? Any decent explanation?
How did you contact them?


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

h0tr0d said:


> Why? Any decent explanation?
> How did you contact them?


I simply made an application for a record.
I just think they didnt take long enough to figure it out.

Anyway I got my front pack away from any immediate crash damage by moving it 110mm further back with some major steel works involving cutting the old massive 60x6 angle base frame out and replacing it with 2 smaller 40x3 angle one of which doubles as a front diff mount.









So the pack now sits about 40mm from the diff/motor.









Opened up the Kelly case and fitted an 80mm fan. Same air flow pattern as the race bike.


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

So finally figured out the hall timing.
There is this pin point position where if its any further retarded it will cut out under load just like the twins did.
And if its any further advanced the throttle will thud when I lift it.
But the thud increases with the amount of advance.
Its like tuning a carby .

Got some temp strips from Colour Change Products.
http://www.colourchanging.com.au/
The motor generally runs 10C hotter than the ctlr.
Both fans run off the same 70C temp switch but that could be lowered to 60C.


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## h0tr0d (Mar 26, 2012)

Looks like you need a timing board like this:
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=19054

tell Burtie that I recommended him  (same nickname in that forum)


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## circuit (Jan 16, 2012)

By the way I have a spare one of those, could part with it cheap. Like new. PM if interested.


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

h0tr0d said:


> Looks like you need a timing board like this:
> http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=19054
> 
> tell Burtie that I recommended him  (same nickname in that forum)


That looks like a good unit.

I think I might need something mechanical like a throttle cable that advances the sensor only when I have it floored so when I go anywhere near zero throttle the timing is back to normal.
Where I have it now it seems like there is less torque at full throttle than when I dyno'd it.

I think my DCDC converter has failed as the resistor that precharges its input side caps gets warm (32C) when the car is switched off. The resistor cools down when I unplug the DCDC. The input side only precharges up to 80v when the controller which runs off the same resistor goes up over 120v.
Im going to do a run without any DCDC backup. The 12v is 20Ah headway.


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## h0tr0d (Mar 26, 2012)

RIPPERTON said:


> That looks like a good unit.
> 
> I think I might need something mechanical like a throttle cable that advances the sensor only when I have it floored so when I go anywhere near zero throttle the timing is back to normal.
> Where I have it now it seems like there is less torque at full throttle than when I dyno'd it.


This time you don't need anything mechanical. Moving the 3 hall sensors mechanically is doable but a lot more work, time consuming to tune, expensive and possibly unreliable. Electronically you can install and just tune it on a dyno for max eff and max power

Here are some success stories:
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=16728&p=343617&hilit=sings#p343617

http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=19054&start=165#p368527

http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=19054&start=255#p437910


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

Splinter is still debugging the Bertie modules so they work properly with the opto isolated Kelly KHB trollers.

Meanwhile I just spent $90 on LED H4 headlight globes which cut my current draw by 50% ftw.
Halogen 9.5A
LED 4A.
Screwed the drivers to the bottom of the headlight casing so they are easy to remove by unplugging the standard 3 pin plug.



















They have micro fans screwed to heat sinks. Very easy to install.


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## tylerwatts (Feb 9, 2012)

Rip I tried those very bulbs and the output is excellent BUT the beam pattern gets messed up. It is also dazzling as the cutoff is not defined properly. Has to do with the source shape. Have you tried the beams in the dark? Got any pics please? Some headlight units might perform better than mine


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

Heres the low beam pattern









and beam


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

Ditching the DCDC converter and going with a larger battery that I charge along with the main pack.
This 12v 24Ah pack has 12 LifeTech cells in acetal base and cap frames.

Yes thats an Australian Coastal Carpet Python named Sneekamus


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## tylerwatts (Feb 9, 2012)

Oh hey that looks great. Much better than my reflectors did! Good! Enjoy those


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

tylerwatts said:


> Oh hey that looks great. Much better than my reflectors did! Good! Enjoy those


So what about your reflectors,
what about Sneekamus, Hes *$%#@)* awesome


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## kennybobby (Aug 10, 2012)

*Re: sneekamus*

Is he a pet or an uninvited guest making residence in the garage on rat patrol?


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

*Re: sneekamus*



kennybobby said:


> Is he a pet or an uninvited guest making residence in the garage on rat patrol?


Ive kept him in a terrarium for 6 years now since a baby.
Bought him off my boss for $200. Best pet Ive ever had.
Doesnt smell, doesnt poop or eat much, never makes any noise.
I wear him around my neck when watchin TV. When he was smaller I used to take him to the Bistro on Tuesday night AEVA meeting.
He got away once when I had him in the back yard but he went toward the house not away from it and curled up in the engine bay of the Mira overnight, middle of winter. He was almost rigid with cold.
He doesnt bite but sometimes tags me when he mistakes my hand for a mouse.


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## kennybobby (Aug 10, 2012)

How long is he, and what's his weight--he looks quite large and well fed...


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

kennybobby said:


> How long is he, and what's his weight--he looks quite large and well fed...


Hes 6 years old and very small for his age.
Only 110cm and about a kilo.
Carpets are usually 2m long and about 10cm diameter even at 2 years old.
But hes amazingly gentle and easy going. Just likes to sleep a lot.


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## dedlast (Aug 17, 2013)

*Re: sneekamus*



RIPPERTON said:


> He doesnt bite but sometimes tags me when he mistakes my hand for a mouse.


So, what you're saying is he needs glasses?


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

*Re: sneekamus*



dedlast said:


> So, what you're saying is he needs glasses?


No, he sees with his heat sensors and my hand might coincidentally make the right heat signature for a mouse or small bird.
He usually tags me when hes hungry and in the dark, walking down an unlit hallway, when I make a certain movement like going to scratch my head.
He goes to strike instinctively but doesnt latch on like he realizes in a nanosecond that its me and retracts just leaving scratches that itch a bit.


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

From one awesome to the next.
New energy consumption record 83.6Wh/km.
Just clocked 98km on an 8.2kWh charge of mixed normal traffic driving and about 10km of slow back streets.
So im now a fan of bottom balancing after getting about 80km on the previous charge I picked up all the lowest cells manually with an RC charger so they were all about 3.2v then did a full charge.
This is with the 12v battery running total loss ie no DCDC. it also gets charged along with the main pack but in dry daytime driving without any heater running it lasts about 2 full charges of the main pack.
This is bottom of charge after the 98km.


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

RIPPERTON said:


> New energy consumption record 83.6Wh/km.


Come on guys your getting slack.
No ones pulled me up on my 83.6Wh/km slip up.

Bottom balancing didnt suddenly make my car more efficient it just made my battery effectively bigger which in turn requires more energy to fill.
I did have the Watt meter running during that charge and it read 10.6kWh at the end of charge not the previous 10.2 so the battery got an estimated 8.6kWh out of the theoretical 8.7kWh capacity meaning the pack is about as well balanced as its going to get.
So the real energy consumption is actually only 87 Wh/km not 83.
This is with the DCDC removed from the vehicle and the 12v pack running total loss.
I also measured the energy consumtion of the 12v system which came to 375Wh per 250km including a bit of night driving with the LED headlights on.
Paltry sum, makes me wonder why I bought a 25A DCDC converter.
I also bought a 250W ceramic heater that draws 18A which for the short time it will be used would be easily be powered by the 24Ah 12v pack.
http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/291075907129?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1438.l2649
I could get away with a 2A DCDC converter. The plus with this one is its voltage adjustable.
http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/130590031426?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1438.l2649

Also applied for my Charge Point card which lets me charge up at fixed public charging stations free.


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

The Kelly often gets over 50C even with the fan forcing air through it so I made this water cooling jacket from 11mm thick acetal for the front face. Will run an R1 water pump through a transmission radiator.










The white looking wad in the reservoir is an air bubble


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

Here I am cutting bigger vent holes in the end frames


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

Water cooling on the controller reduces running temp by 10C. 










I got to use my 6mm bull nose cnc tip for rounded corners and cool pattern.









Radiator is under the front battery pack and gets most of its air from what is deflected down from the area next to the number plate.


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

Here I am doing my bit for the Australian environment by scabbing up a few dollars worth of free electricity.
I got both points to work off one RFID card and pulled 8kWh out while I was lurking around Woolies and throwin down a Boost Juice.



















Heres my Charge Point Account page logging my freebies as I go.


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

Couldnt get the acetal jacket to seal so made one in plexiglass.











Decided to fit volt & ammeter in the dash but had to move the hand brake light over to another socket
so the digital ammeter would fit.
Had to swap 2 pins in the plug.


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

Heres some Ebay links for meters.

http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/181341626648?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1438.l2649

http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/171285256528?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1438.l2649

http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/121091973826?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1438.l2649


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## bradleyk (Apr 3, 2013)

nice work,
i have just read the thread, what do you think of the motor, what was it like at 105kph?
looking at doing a similar conversation to a smart car.
cheers


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## poprock (Apr 29, 2010)

Which engineer are you using for certification? I have contacted one in the Newcastle area re my Sirion; he is on the RMS list and he seemed very reasonable.


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

bradleyk said:


> nice work,
> i have just read the thread, what do you think of the motor, what was it like at 105kph?
> looking at doing a similar conversation to a smart car.
> cheers


Awesome motor, very well built. The 9kW rating is only because they have no cooling at all. Air cooled they can do 35kW.
My next one will be oil cooled.
Get a Terios front diff & shafts [auto 6.5;1] Kelly KHB14601 and 50 series LIFEPO4 172v for about 120kmh.
It keeps speed well on the hiway, I can keep it floored for 15 minutes and winding temp will stay at 65C.

Poprock we have used Hawksbury Tailshafts in South Windsor at about $600 but there are others here in Sydney.


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

motor and controller drawings


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## bradleyk (Apr 3, 2013)

that is small
cheers


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## kennybobby (Aug 10, 2012)

Interesting results for aero mod of a Mira: 

http://ecomodder.com/forum/showthread.php/daihatsu-mira-aerodynamic-modifications-240.html


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

kennybobby said:


> Interesting results for aero mod of a Mira:
> 
> http://ecomodder.com/forum/showthread.php/daihatsu-mira-aerodynamic-modifications-240.html


 
Nice
he could have just converted to electric and got even better results without making his car look weird.


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## MN Driver (Sep 29, 2009)

RIPPERTON said:


> Nice
> he could have just converted to electric and got even better results without making his car look weird.


I'd say doing both is worth it.


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

The worlds most efficient electric vehicle has now clocked up 7000km.

To drive this car 7000km as a petrol vehicle would cost $755 not including servicing costs and using a mean average fuel price of $1.45 / liter.

As an electric vehicle it has cost $233 to drive that distance using a rate of 30 cents per kWh (gst inc).


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## arklan (Dec 10, 2012)

very very interested to know the accelloration figures
i have a suzuki mighty boy id like to convert so it would be fantastic to know the kind of performance 30kw gives in a small car


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

arklan said:


> very very interested to know the accelloration figures
> i have a suzuki mighty boy id like to convert so it would be fantastic to know the kind of performance 30kw gives in a small car


This motor is quite enough to power a small car even with single speed trans.
Only changes I would make is go shorter diff (6.5:1) and 175 volts.
But still like all things that come from China, has to be modified.
This motor wont do 10km as it is out of the box, will overheat. 
It must be at least air cooled or liquid cooled.


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## arklan (Dec 10, 2012)

ok and so what r the acceloration figures?
how fast to 60mph 100kph ?
and how fast to 30mph 50kph ?


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

arklan said:


> ok and so what r the acceloration figures?
> how fast to 60mph 100kph ?
> and how fast to 30mph 50kph ?


About the same to 100kmh as petrol..23 seconds


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

Dash is done using only existing wiring and the original pcb plug.
Relay triggered by accessory 12v engages 136v feed to voltmeter.
micro dcdc 12v-12v supply for ammeter can also read charge amps.
It has shown up to 150A regen at 80kmh which is 2.35C per cell.
Have seen it go only as high as 300A accelerating up a hill.





http://s37.photobucket.com/user/ripperton_2008/media/Mira/DASHINSIDE_zps4cece515.jpg.html


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

In 40 years of motor mechanics I have never seen silicon fail so bad as trying to seal coolant in this controller cooling jacket.
So I have used metal putty to fill the controller cooling fins and then seal the flat surface with silicon. see if that works.


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## rmay635703 (Oct 23, 2008)

RIPPERTON said:


> This motor is quite enough to power a small car even with single speed trans.
> Only changes I would make is go shorter diff (6.5:1) and 175 volts.
> But still like all things that come from China, has to be modified.
> This motor wont do 10km as it is out of the box, will overheat.
> It must be at least air cooled or liquid cooled.


I would like to make my 1800lb insight into a RWD hub motor car.
AKA I want it to have a low speed EV capability and be able to regen without my gas motor running.

I am curious if the changes you made could be documented (in an easy to understand list) and sent to china so they could "improve" the motor out of the box.

Occasionally they have half assed done that for others for other projects.

I am thinking (in my case) 1WD (yes one wheel drive) like a king midget, stubshaft to one wheel
keep existing friction brakes and wire into the 144v system on the car, which I will enhance a bit.

Also I wonder "out of the box" how many amps can that 8kw motor reallly take? If I could downrate it to a snail and use as-is I would do so before spending $5k to mod & machine 

Can this hub motor survive at all being used in the intended way on a rear wheel? 

I doubt it but it would be interesting to test, albeit very expensive.

If I use a stub I need to loose half my trunk

Thanx
Ryan


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

Ryan the quote is about the single motor and diff.
Allready tried to get the Chinese to make custom stuff but they cant.


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## rmay635703 (Oct 23, 2008)

RIPPERTON said:


> Ryan the quote is about the single motor and diff.
> Allready tried to get the Chinese to make custom stuff but they cant.


Can but won't, that sucks, you would think the custom button on the bottom would mean something.

Ah well, I have a 900lb car and a 1800lb car that could be converted to a PHEV style hybrid but I don't think the existing hub motor bearings would withstand that weight even on a rear wheel. And the 900lb car would have to be FWD and there is no room on a Subaru 360 for stub shafts up front. FWD + Hubs means about 10miles before the bearings go 

Ah well, your conversion is pretty sweet and my father owns a Daihatsu Move (a mira cousin) but with a fully electric drivetrain (forklift) and but it doesn't move anything like your car.

Cheers
Ryan


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

Looks like Im back to the drawing board with the fan design.
Im driving along today and one of the blades lets go and takes all the others with it, looked in the rear view mirror and saw bits of aluminium sliding down the road. 
The car still made it home with minimal damage to the windings.
I will try to solder up the broken strands.


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## bradleyk (Apr 3, 2013)

RIPPERTON said:


> Looks like Im back to the drawing board with the fan design.
> Im driving along today and one of the blades lets go and takes all the others with it, looked in the rear view mirror and saw bits of aluminium sliding down the road.
> The car still made it home with minimal damage to the windings.
> I will try to solder up the broken strands.


ouch man that sucks,
do you think an electric motor could work fine, and not use a fan in the motor?
http://au.element14.com/jsp/search/productdetail.jsp?sku=1735951

175cfm, 12mmAq


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

bradleyk said:


> ouch man that sucks,
> do you think an electric motor could work fine, and not use a fan in the motor?
> http://au.element14.com/jsp/search/productdetail.jsp?sku=1735951
> 
> 175cfm, 12mmAq


Nope
crap that fan is massive and for only $12.
Im using a 138cfm fan as a backup.


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## tylerwatts (Feb 9, 2012)

Rip, maybe a small external fan/compressor would be better? Either electric or belt driven off the motor. Think supercharged but at low pressure to avoid charge heating...


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

Honda 500cc Quad bike clutch from Ogden Utah for $140 shipped.
The same clutch from a wreckers here in Oz would have cost $370.
I will try to machine micro V grooves in the drum for the alternator belt.
This thing has a sprag one way clutch built into it so regen will work at low speed and reverse will not use the centrifugal function.


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## jk1981 (Nov 12, 2010)

Ouch, that fan made a mess. Looks like fatigue failure of the aluminium to me, the same fan design in steel should hold up better.

Is the clutch to smooth out the take-off from standstill?


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

jk1981 said:


> Is the clutch to smooth out the take-off from standstill?


The clutch should fool the controller into thinking there isn't as much load and not ramp down power as much.
Basically more torque off the mark and quicker starts.


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

Welding the original diff flange spline into the C clutch drum.





The ultimate coupling but still needs to be well aligned because the sprag clutch is still there to be used for regen and reverse.
The aluminium heater pipe in the back goes to a 1000W KATS water heater. 2 advantages there, a can be powered by 240v for pre-heating in the morning and no need to modify the heater box with ceramics.



Very sturdy looking 6 shoe unit from a 500cc Rubicon. wont be using the springs at first, they are way too strong and need a lot of rpm to get the shoes to move.


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## bradleyk (Apr 3, 2013)

what are you planning to do with the clearance above the motor, have you moved the dif down?


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

bradleyk said:


> what are you planning to do with the clearance above the motor, have you moved the dif down?


The motor wont be sitting any higher with the C clutch. I saved a lot of space combining the diff spline and the drum.


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

So did about 5km with the C clutch in.
It let off a cloud of blue smoke when accelerating from stand still and the drum must have been glowing red.
I installed it without any springs and it grabbed ok but slipped a little too long. Extra weights on the shoes would have fixed that.
In all the unit was a little too small for the 700kg of the Mira but learned a lot about clutches and can now design a better C clutch for the bike.


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

So out with the C clutch and in with a new custom flexible coupling made from 4mm reinforced rubber mat I got from the local Clark Rubber pool shop for $10. This unit is completely quiet and has no vibration.


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## tylerwatts (Feb 9, 2012)

Hi Rip. What is your intent for the flexible coupling? Do you see it replacing the role of the clutch? I understood the clutch was to give the motor a run up to speed before take off.
Thanks


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

tylerwatts said:


> Hi Rip. What is your intent for the flexible coupling? Do you see it replacing the role of the clutch? I understood the clutch was to give the motor a run up to speed before take off.
> Thanks


I sold my old diff flange to BradleyK after I cut it off the splined part so I had to use part of the C Clutch drum as a new flange and it wasn't machined true so I couldnt just hard bolt it to the motor flange.
A coupling of some sort is the correct way of connecting 2 flanges and rubber was a cheap material that I could just cnc the right bolt pattern.


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## bradleyk (Apr 3, 2013)

are you planning to install another c clutch? did it start much better with it? have you heard back from fanny about the new software which will allow you to have full power at go?

ive always like that blue from glowing metal


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## tylerwatts (Feb 9, 2012)

Oh ok thanks Rip, that makes sense. I thought I'd missed something more key. I like the flex coupling for protection the drive train and also NVH in the vehicle. I hope the rubber holds up.


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

The rubber discs didn't last too long but still kept driving even though they were torn.
The round cush rubbers mounted on the diff flange came out of the rear Dymag carbon Fiber wheel of the R1 which were removed 7 years ago. The were fitted with a new alu drive plate mounted to the motor flange but also didn't last too long.




So now I have an acetal disc with 6 holes that virtually just hard bolts the 2 flanges together. This sometimes produces vibration. See how long thios lasts for.


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

bradleyk said:


> are you planning to install another c clutch? did it start much better with it? have you heard back from fanny about the new software which will allow you to have full power at go?


A C clutch would have to be much beefier to handle the loads of even a small car like the Mira so wont be trying it again. I think I should be able to get good take-offs without a clutch by just having a good enough controller.
Ive quizzed Fany further about the "Smooth Start" setting but couldn't get very much out of him.
The inflection point is where the map goes from low to high but he couldn't explain what triggered the inflection. I asked him whether it was throttle position or motor rpm and didn't know. I would assume it was motor rpm. also didn't know what units the inflection point setting was graduated into. Probably percentage.

Also confusing was the units of graduation of the low and high settings themselves. Don't know whether they are in percentage or Amps


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## Karter2 (Nov 17, 2011)

> So now I have an acetal disc with 6 holes that virtually just hard bolts the 2 flanges together. This sometimes produces vibration. See how long thios lasts


 Hey Rip,
a lot of industrial high torque flange couplings similar to yours use multiple thin spring steel sheets where you have the laminate (or had the rubber) 
If the laminate cracks up (inevitable i suspect !) you may want to try getting some 0.5mm spring steel sheet laser cut. ?
www.rodalsa.net/wp-content/uploads/.../*FlexSteel*_0108_compomac.pdf

PS: Flex couplings are intended to compensate for angular misalignment. 
No coupling will last long if the shafts are out of concentric alignment ?


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

Karter2 said:


> Hey Rip,
> a lot of industrial high torque flange couplings similar to yours use multiple thin spring steel sheets where you have the laminate (or had the rubber)
> If the laminate cracks up (inevitable i suspect !) you may want to try getting some 0.5mm spring steel sheet laser cut. ?
> www.rodalsa.net/wp-content/uploads/.../*FlexSteel*_0108_compomac.pdf
> ...


I have 0.7mm Carbon Fiber sheets that I could make a laminated coupling like you suggest but I think the problem is the 2 shafts are not concentric or at least the bolt pattern of the diff flange is not concentric so I need a bit of radial give which a laminated coupling would not have.


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## Karter2 (Nov 17, 2011)

RIPPERTON said:


> but I think the problem is the 2 shafts are not concentric or at least the bolt pattern of the diff flange is not concentric so I need a bit of radial give which a laminated coupling would not have.


 You are going to have to fix that shaft alignment if you dont want to have to keep replacing couplings !
CF has some good applications, but as a high torque flex coupling i dont think it is the best choice


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## jk1981 (Nov 12, 2010)

Lots of BMWs have a beefy rubber doughnut in the propshaft, they're cheap parts and handle many times the torque your motor can produce.


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## steven4601 (Nov 11, 2010)

Those 'fail' too by introducing backlash. This increases as they wear due to abuse.


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

I enlarged the diff flange holes in the coupling disc which allows for a centralization during assembly.
As predicted one of the M8 bolts broke its head off and it started vibrating.
Remember the 120v1000A Kelly controller I first had in the R1 but sold to a guy in Western Australia, well its been sitting on a shelf over there for 3 years and I offered to take it back. Awesome, the 600A Kelly never shut down due to overamp so the ML9000 is probably good for a few more amps.


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

The 120v1000A controller is taking its time coming from WA so I put the 600A unit back in but this time mounting it to the firewall instead of the motor so theres less vibration in the controller. The capacitors are not potted yet so they will fatigue the stems eventually.
Theres been more drama with the coupling as 2 of the 3 welded flanges have fractured off.
Trying to weld them back on bush style.
The motor comes off much easier now and I don't have to disconnect any cables or hall wires.


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

The Mira is no more....
Just starting a new job today after 1 year 8 months unemployment and I drive straight up the back of a ute on the Highway and bend the chassis of the Mira beyond repair.
I was changing lanes and I look back to see the bonnet of the Mira sliding under the tray of the ute and waited for the white lithium fumes to belch out from the front pack but luckily didn't damage it.
I was only doing about 40kmh but I tweaked my shoulder on something, probably the B pillar.
I reversed out from under the ute and parked on the apron.


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

$300 for a tow truck ride back to my place, jumped on the posty bike and made a second attempt to get to my new job which thankfully turned out great.
Will strip all the electrical gear out of the Mira and find something else to put it in maybe with a 3 speed auto this time.


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## tylerwatts (Feb 9, 2012)

Sorry to hear it Rip. Looking forward to the progression of your EV though. Any thoughts for a candidate? Where will you get a 3 speed auto from?


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## arklan (Dec 10, 2012)

jesus!

i always followed this thread because the daihatsu mira is pretty similar to my hatch
was it insured?


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## Karter2 (Nov 17, 2011)

Damm, thats a bummer Rip,
but thankfully no serious human damage. ?
Another 10kmhr, and looks like you would have had a real close up look at that tray rear bar !
Another Mira would be easiest i guess ?

There is one on Gumtree in Fairfield for $500 ...needs engine work !
http://www.gumtree.com.au/s-ad/fairfield/cars-vans-utes/1994-daihatsu-mira-van-minivan/1055753977


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## bradleyk (Apr 3, 2013)

that does suck man. good luck with the new the new car


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

Karter2 said:


> Damm, thats a bummer Rip,
> but thankfully no serious human damage. ?
> Another 10kmhr, and looks like you would have had a real close up look at that tray rear bar !
> Another Mira would be easiest i guess ?
> ...


 The seatbelt stopped my head hitting the windscreen but wrecked my shoulder and strained my ribs. Even my triceps are sore from bracing against the steering wheel.Wont be doing another Mira, its time for evolution. I think a later model with 3 speed auto like this Getz.

http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/281456406742?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1438.l2649


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## tylerwatts (Feb 9, 2012)

Nice colour, and great license plate.


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## John (Sep 11, 2007)

The Getz is quite a lot bigger and heavier than the Mira. Around 1000kg compared to about 640kg for the Mira.


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## PStechPaul (May 1, 2012)

RIPPERTON said:


> I think a later model with 3 speed auto like this Getz.
> 
> http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/281456406742?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1438.l2649


That's a really futuristic model. 20 millenia in the future, for a 22003! 

I'm glad you were not seriously injured, and best of luck with your next conversion.


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

Heres the new Mira !
just put a deposit on this 2005 Holden Barina hatch 5 speed manual.
Its got aircon, electric power steering and an extremely blown head gasket so its only $900. No rego but only 140000 ks on the clock.
All the late model auto transmissions are ECU controlled so probably would be too hard to hack once there was no engine ECU feeding the trans ECU information about when to shift. This thing is roomy for a small car and with 5 gears I should be able to haul 4 adults around.
I might just be able to fit my modified alternator with electric clutch.
I guess Il start another build thread for this one.


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## tylerwatts (Feb 9, 2012)

Hi Rip. Could you post when the new thread is up please. Thanks. I'm looking forward to your mastery as this is the type of build I'm leaning towards myself.


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

Heres the continuing thread.
http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showthread.php?p=499970#post499970


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## tylerwatts (Feb 9, 2012)

Thanks, subscribed


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