# [EVDL] EV attitudes



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

BTW, I recently read a book called Solo: Life with an Electric Car which was written in the early 90s. That was quite an experience because the author touches on factors that were in play immediately preceding the California EV boom of the late 90s. The author spends a lot of his time playing apologist for the drawbacks
of a lead-acid based conversion. He attempts to make a cross-country
trek and he quickly tires of wasting time waiting for the thing to charge and buys a trailer. 
He winds up unhitching his car only for brief jaunts. He opted for
solar panels bolted onto the body which provided almost no extra range even when the car sits
in the sun all day. A lot of the wishful thinking about new battery chemistries I see people express here today, he was expressing over 15 years ago. The only difference I see in attitude between then and now is that back then he was primarily motivated by reducing smog (and a hint about global warming) whereas today we have fullblown global warming, peak oil, and not wanting to "fund terrorism". All the anticipation for advances "right around the corner" he writes about persist today. It makes you cynical about the future.

If next-gen batteries don't come down in price before gas prices spiral out of
control, I actually expect people to respond by changing their driving
behaviors to reduce their expenses. They will downsize their cars,
move closer to work, take public transportation, use bikes and
scooters. None of this requires huge upfront costs or changes in the auto industry.

----- Original Message ----There isn't *one* problem. There are several. People are unwilling to
change their lifestyles or reduce their convenience for an important
cause.




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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

The book is interesting to read. You can reada bit about the book and 
order a used copy at:
http://www.alibris.com/search/search.cfm?S=R&qisbn=0393034070&qsort=p&siteID=JaJqVekCebc-GJarmqeETEhEbax.tLOH5Q
It's an interesting adventure--buying the car in California while living in 
Vermont, transporting the car from California to
Vermont and driving the car in Vermont.

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Glenn Saunders" <[email protected]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, September 07, 2007 12:41 PM
Subject: [EVDL] EV attitudes


> BTW, I recently read a book called Solo: Life with an Electric Car which 
> was written in the early 90s. That was quite an experience because the 
> author touches on factors that were in play immediately preceding the 
> California EV boom of the late 90s. The author spends a lot of his time 
> playing apologist for the drawbacks
> of a lead-acid based conversion. He attempts to make a cross-country
> trek and he quickly tires of wasting time waiting for the thing to charge 
> and buys a trailer.
> He winds up unhitching his car only for brief jaunts. He opted for
> solar panels bolted onto the body which provided almost no extra range 
> even when the car sits
> in the sun all day. A lot of the wishful thinking about new battery 
> chemistries I see people express here today, he was expressing over 15 
> years ago. The only difference I see in attitude between then and now is 
> that back then he was primarily motivated by reducing smog (and a hint 
> about global warming) whereas today we have fullblown global warming, peak 
> oil, and not wanting to "fund terrorism". All the anticipation for 
> advances "right around the corner" he writes about persist today. It 
> makes you cynical about the future.
> 


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

I've been somewhat disappointed too - but we do have a bright-side: 
Lithium Ion, Lithium Polymer, and AltairNano "nano-safe" batteries.
These batteries may have been in the lab back then, but they're on the 
road today (but expensive).

It really is hard to beat gasoline as a 'fuel storage medium' - It gives 
you 100% power during its entire life span (gasoline doesn't get 'weaker' 
as you reach the bottom of the tank) - and it allows you to refuel with a 
bucket, something harder to do with an EV.

I'm still waiting on my own EV Grin...(primarily because other things keep 
getting in the way of getting mine on the road) - 

A little 'friendly nagging' on your part wouldn't be amiss. 

I'm still very eager to get mine going, in spite of the drawbacks. Most 
days, I drive less than 10 miles a day (round trip to/from work). My ICE 
barely warms up.
On the occasion I leave work to go to lunch with friends, I still am 
within a 30 mile range (round trip) to a variety of resturants.

Reading Bob Brant's book and seeing his comment about "grow gas" (written 
in the early 90's, referring to the recovery of lead-acid batteries) seems 
silly. The man is very smart, it seems to me that he would simply admit 
that the lead-acid battery sulfation prevents the effective transfer of 
electrons from the battery pack to the electric motor/drive train; and it 
takes time for the batteries to "recover" if they've reached that stage 
(nearing 80%+ dod, or just old).

I think if I had my life to do over again, I'd have gone into (battery) 
chemistry...There's a bazillion dollars to be made in the battery 
industry...



Ed Cooley





Glenn Saunders <[email protected]> 
Sent by: [email protected]
09/07/2007 15:41
Please respond to
Electric Vehicle Discussion List <[email protected]>


To
Electric Vehicle Discussion List <[email protected]>
cc

Subject
[EVDL] EV attitudes






BTW, I recently read a book called Solo: Life with an Electric Car which 
was written in the early 90s. That was quite an experience because the 
author touches on factors that were in play immediately preceding the 
California EV boom of the late 90s. The author spends a lot of his time 
playing apologist for the drawbacks
of a lead-acid based conversion. He attempts to make a cross-country
trek and he quickly tires of wasting time waiting for the thing to charge 
and buys a trailer. 
He winds up unhitching his car only for brief jaunts. He opted for
solar panels bolted onto the body which provided almost no extra range 
even when the car sits
in the sun all day. A lot of the wishful thinking about new battery 
chemistries I see people express here today, he was expressing over 15 
years ago. The only difference I see in attitude between then and now is 
that back then he was primarily motivated by reducing smog (and a hint 
about global warming) whereas today we have fullblown global warming, peak 
oil, and not wanting to "fund terrorism". All the anticipation for 
advances "right around the corner" he writes about persist today. It 
makes you cynical about the future.

If next-gen batteries don't come down in price before gas prices spiral 
out of
control, I actually expect people to respond by changing their driving
behaviors to reduce their expenses. They will downsize their cars,
move closer to work, take public transportation, use bikes and
scooters. None of this requires huge upfront costs or changes in the auto 
industry.

----- Original Message ----There isn't *one* problem. There are several. 
People are unwilling to
change their lifestyles or reduce their convenience for an important
cause.




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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

BTW, another big difference between then and now is there was no internet community, wifi hotspots, or GPS navigation. He just bumbles his way across the US in a haphazard manner that would seem incredibly foolish today. He could never plan out where his next charge was going to come from. He just drove until the car started to konk out and then panicked in the middle of nowhere. You could certainly make the trip as a pure EV if it were properly plotted out ahead of time on mapping software.

----- Original Message ----
The book is interesting to read. You can reada bit about the book and 
order a used copy at:
http://www.alibris.com/search/search.cfm?S=R&qisbn=0393034070&qsort=p&siteID=JaJqVekCebc-GJarmqeETEhEbax.tLOH5Q
It's an interesting adventure--buying the car in California while living in 
Vermont, transporting the car from California to
Vermont and driving the car in Vermont.





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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

[No message]


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Joseph wrote:
> 
> > No one is going to mass-produce the true good batteries for EVs
> > because the market is so tiny! If there was a market, which I think is
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

I checked this book out from my local library (along with Brandt's book)...

Trying to get from California to Vermont with a 30 mile range EV is crazy 
enough, the guy finally gave up when he figured out that his 30 miles 
dropped to almost zero when tackling large hills (the Rocky Mountains!). 
At least he still used his EV to commute once it got to Vermont.

Not to mention the battricide from driving to almost 100%DOD with a brand 
new pack 

-Adrian

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> On 7 Sep 2007 at 12:41, Glenn Saunders wrote:
> 
> > If next-gen batteries don't come down in price before gas prices spiral out of
> > control, I actually expect people to respond by changing their driving
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

[No message]


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

<<<< BTW, another big difference between then and now is there was no 
internet community, wifi hotspots, or GPS navigation. He just 
bumbles his way across the US in a haphazard manner that would seem 
incredibly foolish today. He could never plan out where his next 
charge was going to come from. He just drove until the car started to 
konk out and then panicked in the middle of nowhere. You could 
certainly make the trip as a pure EV if it were properly plotted out 
ahead of time on mapping software. >>>>

I haven't read the book, but wouldn't you want to plan out a trip like 
that? Even *decades* ago, you could get maps from AAA (or at least buy 
them) and go to a library to look up businesses along the way - some 
had pretty extensive phone book sections, although I haven't had to 
look for them in 20 years. In the end, some (most) people seem to 
attract the outcome they have subconsciously planned!

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Actually, they're fantasies there to attract venture capital.

The market for ANY large-format batt is quite substantial, hybrids and 
especially plug-in hybrids already have a market for large cells, the 
larger the better. But that's hardly the end of it, military robots, 
power stations, electric lawnmowers, there's just no shortage of 
applications already there which need large, high energy density batts.

But production really is an issue. I mean you may make an ideal batt 
with a stainless steel case and demo it, then you realize that the 
stainless would be ridiculously expensive. So you look into plastic, 
then find reasons why some plastics won't work and realize a lot more 
research is gonna be needed to avoid screwing this up and putting you 
back to square one. Similarly you find that the way you machined the 
plates and busbars isn't cost effective and assume there's some way to 
do it cheap but never looked into that. And the way you attached the 
busbars to the plates, it was a stunt requiring a genius engineer to 
pull off and you have doubts that you can train the Chinese plant to do 
that reliably, maybe the whole method needs to be changed. Maybe at 
first you want to put out just a few thousand because that's all you can 
make and it's important to get them to OEMs so they can use them for 
research and to get the name out- which seems to be where we're at. 
Making enough to fully supply the market is going to take awhile.

You get the idea.

Danny



> Joseph T. wrote:
> 
> >It's very simple why all these batteries are "just around the corner."
> >
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

I have done my best to drive my car as an "average consumer" would because I 
wanted to see if it were possible to substitue an EV for a regular car. I'm 
no genius but I think I'm smarter than the average consumer so this is kind 
of hard because I have the "burden of knowledge".

At the bare minimum, Joe Consumer wants to jump in his car, turn the key and 
drive to his destination without a hassle. Lather, rinse, repeat.

When the car works, it works really well. I have driven for months without a 
problem.

When it doesn't work, it has been frustrating. The car stranded has stranded 
me twice. Once was my fault, once wasn't. So far, if I was Joe Consumer I 
would be pissed off and not have a lot of faith in EV's.

I will say that the problems I've had appear to be age/design related. My 
Bug was converted back in 1992. The cables are old, the controller was old 
and had no heat dissapation, the contactor was old and corroded and the 
charger was over 5 years old and had suffered from water intrusion.

Now, the controller is fresh with a big heatsink on it, the charger is new, 
the water leak fixed and the Albright contactor has been replaced with a 
totally sealed Kilovac contactor which should prevent any corrosion related 
failure. I'm replacing the cables in sections.

As a "learner", I am satisfied with the car and understand the cause of the 
failures. As Joe Consumer, "I don't care why it broke, it just broke and I'm 
pissed". Now that the car is in better shape, I intend to slip back into my 
Joe Consumer persona and drive the car as a typically neglectful, abusive 
consumer would and see how it holds up.

I believe that ICE-to-EV conversions can be safe, comfortable and very 
reliable. I think the only real trade-offs you have to make are short range 
and increased build costs. That's what I'm trying to find out.

Rich A.

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

In recent weeks, I have heard twice that the tesla is using cobalt based
cells and not the A123 cells; And web references confirm that.

I thought there was talk early that they would be using the A123 cells,
did they change their mind? (or was it just one of those things I read
on the web)


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> But production really is an issue. I mean you may make an ideal batt
> with a stainless steel case and demo it, then you realize that the
> stainless would be ridiculously expensive. So you look into plastic,
> then find reasons why some plastics won't work and realize a lot more
> research is gonna be needed to avoid screwing this up and putting you
> back to square one.

Please don't forget that there is a usable and proven technology available
with Nimh. It's not technical difficulties, new development or what ever
reason that makes that technology to 'unobtainium'. It's politics. It's
the desire to make money from fossil fuels and related technologies. And
this is what will continue to obstruct the way to clean(er) vehicles in
America and in Europe. It will take many, many years for the majority of
people to understand that we can't continue to waste our global resources
and I doubt that I will be around to see it.

Michaela


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Michaela Merz wrote:
> ...
> It will take many, many years for the majority of
> > people to understand that we can't continue to waste our global resources
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> [email protected] wrote:
> > I haven't read the book, but wouldn't you want to plan out a trip like
> > that? Even *decades* ago, you could get maps from AAA (or at least buy
> > them) and go to a library to look up businesses along the way...
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

<<<< It will only end when resources end. Or, as David pointed out, when
resources will artificially be made too hard/inconvenient to obtain or
expensive (or gradually outlawed), but these options are up to
manipulation by politicians, so not much hope they will do right thing
(based on past history). >>>>

I'm curious: in Cuba, they are suppose to have a lot of pre-'59 US 
cars they keep cobbled together, but what else do they drive? Seems 
another open market for EVs...if it wasn't for the political climate 
(ours and theirs).

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Jeff Shanab wrote:
> 
> > I thought there was talk early that they would be using the A123 cells,
> 
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

in Cuba they drive Japanese and eastern European cars and some from south America . they use trailers with cattle car style seating for buses and they get cramed full and your pockets get picked fast , the tourists are told to take raxies if at all possible 
----- Original Message ----- 
From: [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]> 
To: [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]> 
Sent: Saturday, September 08, 2007 7:10 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] EV attitudes



<<<< It will only end when resources end. Or, as David pointed out, when
resources will artificially be made too hard/inconvenient to obtain or
expensive (or gradually outlawed), but these options are up to
manipulation by politicians, so not much hope they will do right thing
(based on past history). >>>>

I'm curious: in Cuba, they are suppose to have a lot of pre-'59 US 
cars they keep cobbled together, but what else do they drive? Seems 
another open market for EVs...if it wasn't for the political climate 
(ours and theirs).

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

[No message]


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Ah yes the m=E1quina or "yank tank".

Many have already been refitted with different engines, either because
they wore out and replacement parts were not available or they wanted to
switch to the more readily available diesel fuel.

While they're open to converting to anything, seems like EV would be a
tough sell since the embargo makes obtaining the required high-tech
components unlikely.

Danny

----- Original Message -----
From: [email protected]
Date: Saturday, September 8, 2007 7:13 pm
Subject: Re: [EVDL] EV attitudes
To: [email protected]

> =

> <<<< It will only end when resources end. Or, as David pointed out, =

> whenresources will artificially be made too hard/inconvenient to =

> obtain or
> expensive (or gradually outlawed), but these options are up to
> manipulation by politicians, so not much hope they will do right thing
> (based on past history). >>>>
> =

> I'm curious: in Cuba, they are suppose to have a lot of pre-'59 US =

> cars they keep cobbled together, but what else do they drive? Seems =

> =

> another open market for EVs...if it wasn't for the political =

> climate =

> (ours and theirs).
> =

> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
> =


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

<<<< While they're open to converting to anything, seems like EV would be a
tough sell since the embargo makes obtaining the required high-tech
components unlikely. >>>>

What "high-tech components"? They could get by with 100-year-old EV 
designs! Knife switches, sliding contacts, home-serviced nickel-iron 
batteries, all that stuff should work fine for those willing to work 
within the limits of the equipment. How much high-speed hill-climbing 
or drag-racing do they have on that island?

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

[No message]


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Lee Hart wrote:
> ...
> > I saw it as a leisurely summer vacation,
> > rather like the trip in the book "Blue Highways" by William Least Heat Moon.
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Very well done Dave

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Very well done Dave

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