# Re: [EVDL] Charging station vandalism (WAS: Re: Wireless charging)



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Charging station vandalism (WAS: Re: Wireless charging)*



> On 7 Oct 2010 at 17:42, Thos True wrote:
> 
> > And yet all of the sales people and engineers seem to think that the
> > public wants the cord to be supplied at the charger.
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Charging station vandalism (WAS: Re: Wireless charging)*

The NEC has an interesting twist when there is no cord and there is 
an on-board charger that can plug into a normal outlet. The reality 
of the situation is that the NEC is forbidden to regulate anything 
beyond the receptacle attached to the physical building structure. 
(UL does that, kind of.) The NEC has no authority to tell you what 
can, or cannot, be plugged into a receptacle.

Thus, you can put in an ordinary receptacle, and not specify what is 
to be plugged into it, because, in reality, you are not required to do so.

Article 625 _tries_ to regulate outside the receptacle. This is 
beyond the authority of the NEC. Once the charger moves off the wall 
and on-board the EV, the NEC is out of the loop. They don't want to 
be, but they are.

Bill D.

At 06:42 PM 10/7/2010, you wrote:
>Chuck,
>I have brought this issue up several times over the last 4 or 5 years at
>various planning meeting for charging station programs. And yet all of the
>sales people and engineers seem to think that the public wants the cord to
>be supplied at the charger. I have been driving a variety of electrics, to
>date, I have found very few people who drive an electric vehicle without a
>cord on board to facilitate the unexpected charge. It would be so much
>smarter to supply a replaceable cord with the vehicle and have a plug (or
>socket) at the station to plug into, rather than showing up at the station
>and finding the attached cord in a useless condition (or missing altogether
>via copper thief).
>Just my opinion as a seasoned electrician and EV driver.
>
>


> Chuck Hursch <[email protected]> wrote:
> >
> > > This thread didn't seem to have much to say about part of what started
> > > it off - vandalism. When I was involved with evchargernews.com, I saw
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Charging station vandalism (WAS: Re: Wireless charging)*



> Bill Dube wrote:
> > ...The NEC has no authority to tell you what can, or cannot,
> > be plugged into a receptacle.
> 
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Charging station vandalism (WAS: Re: Wireless charging)*

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Charging station vandalism (WAS: Re: Wireless charging)*

It's just FUD. First, EVs aren't going to reproduce likes rabbits. It
will be a long and slow process. Second, most charging will probably
be at night and that's when the grid has capacity. Remember, the power
grid cycles between excess capacity at night and under capacity during
the day. Nightly EV charging will allow the utilities to be more
profitable (more revenue with little additional expense) and they can
use the profits to upgrade infrastructure. This will be a long slow
process. The scare tactics are positioning to try and justify rate
hikes.

This is just business as usual. Trying to figure out how to make the
most money out of a new market.

DAC



> Aaron Choate <[email protected]> wrote:
> > But the Electric Utilities are scared ****less of the impact of all
> > those EVs plugging in at once. They don't seem to be concerned about
> > safety so much as load. Everything they are doing seems to be on that
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Charging station vandalism (WAS: Re: Wireless charging)*

This does not jive with the PG&E presentation at
one of the EAAEV chapter meetings, which stated
that they *love* Evs, especially because of their
property to better balance the load and there may
be even rate *reductions* from improved efficiency
(read: flatter load between day/night) leading to
cost reduction per kWh (more kWh supplied without
much cost increase, at night) so they regarded
EVs plugging into their outlets as a win-win
situation...
Probably one of the chapter members has this
presentation available, contact me if you cannot
reach the Silicon Valley chapter.

Regards,

Cor van de Water
Director HW & Systems Architecture Group
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
Email: [email protected] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [email protected]
Tel: +1 408 383 7626 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Tel: +91 (040)23117400 x203 XoIP: +31877841130

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behal=
f Of Aaron Choate
Sent: Friday, October 08, 2010 10:02 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Charging station vandalism (WAS: Re: Wireless charging)

But the Electric Utilities are scared ****less of the impact of all those E=
Vs plugging in at once. They don't seem to be concerned about safety so mu=
ch as load. Everything they are doing seems to be on that theme and severa=
l have huge grants to work on "smart grid"
applications so that they can protect their systems from all this impact. =
I keep trying to decide whether I am encouraged that they think that EVs wi=
ll be a success this time around or frustrated by how complex (and industry=
insular) this is all making our charging future.

/Aaron Choate
REVOLT Electric Vehicles





> Lee Hart <[email protected]> wrote:
> > Bill Dube wrote:
> >> ...The NEC has no authority to tell you what can, or cannot, be =
> 
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Charging station vandalism (WAS: Re: Wireless charging)*

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----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Charging station vandalism (WAS: Re: Wireless charging)*

Twenty years ago, when I was living in Vermont, my heater and hot
water heater were hooked up to a system that would only turn them on
during certain hours. This avoided the problem with peak loads. No
reason you couldn't do the same with an EV. If you are home for the
evening, just plug it in and it will charge when appropriate. If you
need a charge sooner, pay a little more for more expensive
electricity.



> Aaron Choate <[email protected]> wrote:
> > Yeah - I would imagine that the reaction will be different in
> > different areas. To be more specific, I think our local utility (in
> > Austin, TX) is scared of what will happen when all these happy EV
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Charging station vandalism (WAS: Re: Wireless charging)*



> dave cover wrote:
> > It's just FUD. First, EVs aren't going to reproduce likes rabbits. It
> > will be a long and slow process. Second, most charging will probably
> > be at night and that's when the grid has capacity. Remember, the power
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Charging station vandalism (WAS: Re: Wireless charging)*

The EVSE that you will use with the leaf, as well as the old ones in
California 15 years ago have the ability to be programed. You tell it
you want to start charging at midnight, for example. You get home,
plug in and forget it. Then at midnight, or whenever you program it
for, it will come on and dutifully charge you up without any further
action on your part. Need a charge now for an evening excursion? Hit a
button and start charging immediately. This was all figured out years
ago, but only the west coasters were able to take advantage of it.

Dave

On 10/8/10, Willie McKemie <[email protected]> wrote:
>


> dave cover wrote:
> >> It's just FUD. First, EVs aren't going to reproduce likes rabbits. It
> >> will be a long and slow process. Second, most charging will probably
> >> be at night and that's when the grid has capacity. Remember, the power
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Charging station vandalism (WAS: Re: Wireless charging)*

I'd rather have control of it myself (rather than leaving it up to the
electric company), however finding a timer even for 120V/20A locally at
the hardware store hasn't been easy -- most of them are the mechanical
clocks that have to be on all the time or they lose their time, and they
have a 15A max load...

This extends to other high-electricity usage items as well:
Dishswashers, my washer has a time delay, but my dryer (which uses more
electricity) doesn't!

Really what I want is an intelligent charging system that can sense the
state of charge in your pack, knows the current market rate and the most
likely timeperiod (historically) for electricity to be the cheapest and
kicks up the amperage during that time period: We use mainly
coal/nuclear in Illinois, so if the cost of electricity is greater than
10 cents/KWH, don't charge (unless the "do it now" button is pressed),
if it's 6-8 cents, slow charge and if it's under 3-4 cents... suck amps!

While rare, if the real-market rate is 1-4 cents a kilowatt hour in the
middle of the day it means there's light demand on the grid and charging
during the day isn't going to hurt anything. We've had prices go a
penny or two negative for an hour during the night during high travel
holiday weekends like July 4th.

This of course all goes away with localized electricity production. At
one point I heard a stat that the average home in Southern California,
if covered completely in solar could meet the power demands of not only
that house but 8 others (again, sorry no citation). I do recall reading
this stat just before the rolling blackouts caused by Enron's economic
manipulation of taking power plants offline for "maintenance" during
peak load.

Local solar production especially makes sense when you realize that
cooling is the biggest load on the grid, and that the sun is what makes
things hot. So when the sun is pounding down, the A/C is on and the
solar cells are generating at their peak -- the usage curve actually
trails peak solar curve by an hour or two.

Unless of course you live in an area like the MidWest (Central Illinois)
where it's the HUMIDITY along with the heat that kills you in the
summertime and it doesn't let up when the sun goes down.

Oh yes, and you want to be paid green generating rates on your net
metering...

[email protected] 

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On
Behalf Of Willie McKemie
Sent: Friday, October 08, 2010 3:44 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Charging station vandalism (WAS: Re: Wireless
charging)



> dave cover wrote:
> > It's just FUD. First, EVs aren't going to reproduce likes rabbits. It
> > will be a long and slow process. Second, most charging will probably
> > be at night and that's when the grid has capacity. Remember, the power
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Charging station vandalism (WAS: Re: Wireless charging)*



> On 8 Oct 2010 at 6:38, joe wrote:
> 
> > manufacturers are trying to get the code to favor their equipment,
> > rather than having their equipment meet safety requirements that make
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Charging station vandalism (WAS: Re: Wireless charging)*



> dave cover wrote:
> > Twenty years ago, when I was living in Vermont, my heater and hot
> > water heater were hooked up to a system that would only turn them on
> > during certain hours. This avoided the problem with peak loads. No
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Charging station vandalism (WAS: Re: Wireless charging)*

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Childress, Matthew <[email protected]>
Date: Fri, Oct 8, 2010 at 3:01 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Charging station vandalism (WAS: Re: Wireless charging)
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <[email protected]>


finding a timer even for 120V/20A locally at
> the hardware store hasn't been easy -- most of them are the mechanical
> clocks that have to be on all the time or they lose their time, and they
> have a 15A max load...
>

Check online hydroponics stores... (or local ones if you are in CA, CO, or
MI?) They have a wide variety of 120vac and 240vac timers with battery run
clocks and all, depending on how fancy you get.

Z
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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Charging station vandalism (WAS: Re: Wireless charging)*

Also try TeKsupply as they have a LOT of high power timers...

www.teksupply.com

One for "up to 2Hp" and 277 volts is at

http://www.teksupply.com/farm/supplies/prod1;;pg109071_109074.html


Bob Sisson
1993 Geo Metro Convertible Project
Gaithersburg MD

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf
Of Zeke Yewdall
Sent: Saturday, October 09, 2010 9:43 AM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Charging station vandalism (WAS: Re: Wireless charging)

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Childress, Matthew <[email protected]>
Date: Fri, Oct 8, 2010 at 3:01 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Charging station vandalism (WAS: Re: Wireless charging)
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <[email protected]>


finding a timer even for 120V/20A locally at
> the hardware store hasn't been easy -- most of them are the mechanical
> clocks that have to be on all the time or they lose their time, and they
> have a 15A max load...
>

Check online hydroponics stores... (or local ones if you are in CA, CO, or
MI?) They have a wide variety of 120vac and 240vac timers with battery run
clocks and all, depending on how fancy you get.

Z
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| REPLYING: address your message to [email protected] only.
| Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
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----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Charging station vandalism (WAS: Re: Wireless charging)*

On another forum they suggest using a standard timer to control a
"contactor" and those can be BIG... The application was turning on/off a
Electric range (220V 50A) in a dorm kitchen....

Bob Sisson
1993 Geo Metro Convertible Project
Gaithersburg MD


-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf
Of Bob Sisson
Sent: Saturday, October 09, 2010 10:48 AM
To: 'Electric Vehicle Discussion List'
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Charging station vandalism (WAS: Re: Wireless charging)

Also try TeKsupply as they have a LOT of high power timers...

www.teksupply.com

One for "up to 2Hp" and 277 volts is at

http://www.teksupply.com/farm/supplies/prod1;;pg109071_109074.html


Bob Sisson
1993 Geo Metro Convertible Project
Gaithersburg MD

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf
Of Zeke Yewdall
Sent: Saturday, October 09, 2010 9:43 AM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Charging station vandalism (WAS: Re: Wireless charging)

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Childress, Matthew <[email protected]>
Date: Fri, Oct 8, 2010 at 3:01 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Charging station vandalism (WAS: Re: Wireless charging)
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <[email protected]>


finding a timer even for 120V/20A locally at
> the hardware store hasn't been easy -- most of them are the mechanical
> clocks that have to be on all the time or they lose their time, and they
> have a 15A max load...
>

Check online hydroponics stores... (or local ones if you are in CA, CO, or
MI?) They have a wide variety of 120vac and 240vac timers with battery run
clocks and all, depending on how fancy you get.

Z
-------------- next part --------------
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----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Charging station vandalism (WAS: Re: Wireless charging)*

I have always felt that even if it is only an outlet and the EV had the cord
like RVers do they should be in a secured location or in plain clear sight
of a cashier or parking attendant. 24/7.

The hose of a gas pump does not have large copper conductors in it worth
several dollars.
Perhaps that is why they are not stolen. Don't leave an aluminum ladder
outside, those disappear quickly.

The J1772 charging station manufacturers need to hide the 20 ft. cable. in a
locked compartment., and considering the price they charge the cable could
be built with a strong wire mesh braided jacket inside the outermost rubbery
layer so a knife won't cut it! something like "Steel belted" tire
construction.

Regards,
Dennis Miles
==========================================================


> Chuck Hursch <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> > This thread didn't seem to have much to say about part of what started
> > it off - vandalism. When I was involved with evchargernews.com, I saw
> ...


----------

