# need help with acceleration from curtis 1239e with ac50 motor in Ford Probe



## [email protected] (Aug 21, 2017)

Hi All, I have had my Ford probe converted for a long time with DC motor and drive system (ADC FB 4001 motor and Zapi H3D 800A controller). I recently blew the brushes out of my motor for the 3rd time as my DC controller was going into regen mode and destroying the brushes over time with excessive arcing. Anyway, I took the plunge and decided to go for an AC Drive system. The Curtis 1239e and HPEVS AC50 motor was ticking all the boxes for what I could afford. I am running with 36x CALB SE180AH batteries (nominal 115.2v). I have been changing the settings in the controller to get it usable. It just has very limited power at low speed. I was expecting a reduction from my old DC drive, but this is dangerous to use on the road. With my DC motor etc. I could pull away from stationary in 3rd gear all day long no problem. It was difficult to use 1st gear without the wheels spinning. With AC drive, it is really slow pulling away from stationary in 1st gear. I was given the motor tune parameters, so do I still need to run the tuning routine? There are kp, ki, and kd settings under the torque control menu, and I understand these are Proportional, Integral, and Differential settings, but what should they be set to for a decent acceleration. I am only pulling 200A from the batteries when accelerating. I have all the current limits set to 100%. What other parameters can I change to improve the acceleration from rest? I am wanting to send it all back, but I am also sure there is something else I can change to get more performance.

Please help me find a way to get my car accelerating from rest.
Thanks...


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## grip911 (Dec 14, 2011)

If you have the 1239e ,you will need a lot more batteries. that controller is 144v nominal, and most of the guys are at 160volts


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## [email protected] (Aug 21, 2017)

I have 36 batteries. The controller works from 72v to 144v. 144v is maximum. I have seen similar spec from Ford Ranger and Chevy S10 that are heavier than my car with less batteries. I will not be adding batteries any time soon. Please help me get the controller settings performing better.

Thanks...


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## Ivansgarage (Sep 3, 2011)

Here is settings from mizlplix curtis controller

http://ivanbennett.com/forum/index.php?topic=13.0


This just part !!!

-Max speed- 500-8000RPMs- set it at your motors maximum safe RPMs.

-KP- 0-100%- How aggressively the controller holds (under steady cruise) to the top RPM you just set. A medium setting is a safe starting point. (I like 10%)

-KI- 0-100%- This is the deceleration rate (back downwards) if the motor overshoots the maximum setting, (like freewheeling down hill.) A medium setting is good here too. (I like 30%) 

-KD- 0-100%- This ramps down acceleration as it nears top RPM setting (to stop overshooting). A lower middle setting is best. (I like 5%)

NOTE: If you set your controller to very aggressive settings thinking to get the Maximum performance out of it, it will just start getting unstable, overshooting, dropping, overshooting...."wig-wagging".
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## kennybobby (Aug 10, 2012)

Is there a potentiometer or setting for Gain of the throttle input command--what is the maximum allowed throttle voltage in the controller, and how much does your throttle switch generate, e.g. at max WOT.


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## Ivansgarage (Sep 3, 2011)

kennybobby said:


> Is there a potentiometer or setting for Gain of the throttle input command--what is the maximum allowed throttle voltage in the controller, and how much does your throttle switch generate, e.g. at max WOT.


http://ivanbennett.com/forum/index.php?topic=13.0

-Forward dead band- 0-5.0 volts This is to create a "dead" area so that if your controller fails to zero each time, it will not cause the car to creep forward when stopped. (I use .3 volt)

-Forward map- 0-100% This setting causes a slower low end response to the "gas" pedal. Making it smoother to drive. (I use 100%)

-Forward Max- 0-5 volts This setting defines what "full throttle" is. (I use 4.5 volts)

-Forward offset- 0-5 volts This sets the amount of throttle pedal movement to start the vehicle moving. Some heavier vehicles will need this set up higher to stop an annoying large pedal stroke before the car starts moving-and then a small stroke to drive down the road. (I use 0)


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## [email protected] (Aug 21, 2017)

kennybobby said:


> Is there a potentiometer or setting for Gain of the throttle input command--what is the maximum allowed throttle voltage in the controller, and how much does your throttle switch generate, e.g. at max WOT.


I bought a genuine Curtis PB6 so I could eliminate this from the issue. My old (copy) was giving hardly any range of voltage. I currently have the forward and reverse throttle settings as measured, set at 0.5v for the dead band (the point where the micro switch changes state), and 3.7v as the maximum voltage for WOT from memory. the modelled throttle corresponds to 0% through 100% ok. I think I put the mapping back to 50% to get a linear response, but this is academic at WOT. I could try changing this again. The first time I tried it my batteries were nearly flat and I was getting all sorts of problems. I have changed the setting since putting a full charge in the batteries and it's getting better. I shall try the throttle mapping again to see if this helps.

Thanks...


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## [email protected] (Aug 21, 2017)

Ivansgarage said:


> Here is settings from mizlplix curtis controller
> 
> http://ivanbennett.com/forum/index.php?topic=13.0
> 
> ...


Which vehicle do you this set-up in (Heaviest)?


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## Ivansgarage (Sep 3, 2011)

Deans Mizlplix Car We used Deans car for motor testing (and Dyno) plus controller settings


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## [email protected] (Aug 21, 2017)

Today I have set the throttle mapping to 80% and PID settings to 10%, 30% and 5% and it is marginally better I think. I need to get the exact values for the AC 50 motor (as described by Curtis) for the 1239E controller in particular. I don't know if these are any different from the 1238 as I don't have the 1239E settings manual yet. Does anybody have the motor tuning values?

Thanks...


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## Ivansgarage (Sep 3, 2011)

[email protected] said:


> Today I have set the throttle mapping to 80% and PID settings to 10%, 30% and 5% and it is marginally better I think. I need to get the exact values for the AC 50 motor (as described by Curtis) for the 1239E controller in particular. I don't know if these are any different from the 1238 as I don't have the 1239E settings manual yet. Does anybody have the motor tuning values?
> 
> Thanks...


On motor settings Curtis does not have anything to do with the settings
But Curtis Controller does have a generic software for motors,
it is HPEV who does the settings it is there motors. HPEV is the ones that
wrote the VCL (vehicle control language)

And between the two controllers 1238 and 1239 same software I know (difference battery voltage)
this for a fact because I have the software (flashes for the proms)


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## Ivansgarage (Sep 3, 2011)

Didn't you buy that from HPEV?

All the setting should be set.

I *would not* run the optimize it will change the slip setting
and it *will not* be correct.


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## jam[email protected] (Aug 21, 2017)

I am coming to the conclusion that I have got all I can from this motor and drive now. I believe the car is just a bit too heavy and I have been spoilt by having a more powerful DC drive. It is now driveable and I shall live with it until I am ready to go back to the DC drive (lots of rework) or find some more ways to improve the acceleration. I did expect it to be less powerful than my old set up, but this is considerably less. I am trying to make it work, but I feel like I am in a slow car and it doesn't look like a slow car.

Previously I had an ADC FB4001 motor with a Zapi H3D 800A controller. I need to get the controller firmware reloaded, motor commutator skimmed and balanced and new brushes. Does anybody know if I can get Hedwig brushes for and ADC Motor? I know they are available for a warp motor.

Thanks...


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## Ivansgarage (Sep 3, 2011)

You never did answer the question, has that motor ever been optimized
with that controller?

It will never run correctly unless optimized no-matter how many settings you change.
The controller does a mapping of the magnetic field of the motor and has nothing to do
with the setting, per-say. make sense?

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## [email protected] (Aug 21, 2017)

Ivansgarage said:


> You never did answer the question, has that motor ever been optimized
> with that controller?
> 
> It will never run correctly unless optimized no-matter how many settings you change.
> ...


 Thanks, I was not sure about this. I have done the preliminary settings and I now have the right manual with the instructions to perform the optimization. This will be me on Saturday I think...
Cheers.


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## [email protected] (Aug 21, 2017)

Ivansgarage said:


> You never did answer the question, has that motor ever been optimized
> with that controller?
> 
> It will never run correctly unless optimized no-matter how many settings you change.
> ...


 Nobody asked the if the motor has been optimized, but the answer is 'no' it hasn't been optimized. In a previous response you said not to do that. I guess you assumed it had already been done?


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## Ivansgarage (Sep 3, 2011)

[email protected] said:


> Nobody asked the if the motor has been optimized, but the answer is 'no' it hasn't been optimized. In a previous response you said not to do that. I guess you assumed it had already been done?


Yes I thought you bought it as a package deal from HPEV

So does the controller have HPEV VCL on it?


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## [email protected] (Aug 21, 2017)

Ivansgarage said:


> Yes I thought you bought it as a package deal from HPEV
> 
> So does the controller have HPEV VCL on it?


The controller was straight out of the box, direct from Curtis. I am in uk, so HPEVS is not a normal supplier here for the controller. Is there a difference between HPEVS VCL and what comes direct from Curtis?

Thanks...


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## Ivansgarage (Sep 3, 2011)

[email protected] said:


> The controller was straight out of the box, direct from Curtis. I am in uk, so HPEVS is not a normal supplier here for the controller. Is there a difference between HPEVS VCL and what comes direct from Curtis?
> 
> Thanks...


The HPEV has all their motor setting preset and most of the setting
are not changeable you done good except you got to optimize it
and you will notice a big diff. in performance the only trouble you will
have is setting the slip which makes a big diff. The optimize program
does not set the slip right. (I have a dyno and can do locked rotor with
a scale to set the slip) (the slip is the torque turning force)

Let me know I am still trying to find out what the slip is at on a HPEV
AC-50 that will save ya a bunch of trouble. 

*I found out what the slip is supposed to be 1.33 AC50*

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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

Ivansgarage said:


> ... The optimize program
> does not set the slip right. (I have a dyno and can do locked rotor with
> a scale to set the slip) (the slip is the torque turning force)
> 
> ...


Slip is a speed difference. I suppose you could measure it as the speed at which maximum torque is developed with the rotor locked, but that would give an actual speed (in revolutions per minute or whatever), not a difference (slip is always 100% with the shaft not turning). I would expect it to be a fraction (percentage) of shaft speed in a running motor. What are the units of the value "1.33"? Is it 1.33% of shaft speed?


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## Ivansgarage (Sep 3, 2011)

brian_ said:


> Slip is a speed difference. I suppose you could measure it as the speed at which maximum torque is developed with the rotor locked, but that would give an actual speed (in revolutions per minute or whatever), not a difference (slip is always 100% with the shaft not turning). I would expect it to be a fraction (percentage) of shaft speed in a running motor. What are the units of the value "1.33"? Is it 1.33% of shaft speed?


"What are the units of the value "1.33"? Is it 1.33% of shaft speed?"

really don't give a shit its what the the curtis controller needs to put out maximum torque.
We are not trying to design a new motor we are trying to get his controller set up.
I know what slip is it's the lag in the magnetic field (rotor lag)

LOOK it UP

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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

Ivansgarage said:


> ...
> really don't give a shit its what the the curtis controller needs to put out maximum torque.
> We are not trying to design a new motor we are trying to get his controller set up.
> I know what slip is it's the lag in the magnetic field (rotor lag)
> ...


I suppose for someone who doesn't want to understand anything, this makes sense. It seems like it would have been easier to just answer the question (even just with "I don't know" or "I don't care") than compose this rant, but that's your choice. 

The Curtis website claims to offer manuals, but only provides the datasheet, which does not answer the question, or list any setup parameters. It's a little difficult to look up. 

In case anyone is interested... according to a post to a thread in Ivan's website, this value is the "*slip gain*" for an AC-50. It appears to be some response parameter, rather than the optimal slip.


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## dcb (Dec 5, 2009)

Bri you seem to be ignoring the context here, and that ivan knows what he is doing. Besides slip as a % only makes sense at a fixed frequency. Slip gain (the only item in the curtis menu with slip in it) is much more useful.


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

It was just a question, and I do understand that "slip gain" makes more sense than "slip" as a controller tuning parameter. No need to get excited...


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## Ivansgarage (Sep 3, 2011)

This is the big difference the SLIP gain has on the motor torque.

http://ivanbennett.com/forum/index.php?topic=17.msg1482#msg1482

Here is the numbers after the *locked rotor test*. *The motor optimized at 7.00 on slip.* 
(torque is foot pounds)

slip -- torque -- amps
7.00 -- 142 -- 260
6.00 -- 160 -- 270
5.00 -- 180 -- 280
4.00 -- 220 -- 270
3.50 -- 225 -- 254 

Looks like 3.50 is the best on slip gain. Had to turn brake pressure up all the way to hold it from turning. 









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## [email protected] (Aug 21, 2017)

Thanks for the help. My plan at the moment is to get the car with the wheels off the ground on Saturday and run through the optimization procedure. Currently the settings I have puts the slip gain at 3.20. If I set this to 1.33 now will that cause a problem? I have left these values alone so far. 

Also to optimize the motor etc., can I just put the gearbox in neutral? Save me having to jack the car up?

I need to check the values to run the optimization, but doe anybody have a recommendation about the rpm to run the procedure at? It seems I can choose, but don't know what to use.

I do have an extensive background in electronics and I have worked with some of the Siemens simovert drives for the dc motors used on industrial power presses. I have a good understanding. It has been many years since I worked in this area, but I do remember a fair amount. From my triaing and memory slip gain is like a ratio, so it has no units.

Shall I set the slip gain now before I optimize?

Thanks...


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## Ivansgarage (Sep 3, 2011)

[email protected] said:


> Thanks for the help. My plan at the moment is to get the car with the wheels off the ground on Saturday and run through the optimization procedure. Currently the settings I have puts the slip gain at 3.20. If I set this to 1.33 now will that cause a problem? I have left these values alone so far.
> 
> Also to optimize the motor etc., can I just put the gearbox in neutral? Save me having to jack the car up?
> 
> ...


Yes just put it in neutral I would jack up the wheels just for safety sake.
do not worry about the slip you will change it after optimization.
Yes 1000 rpm is OK
You will get errors after optimization they allways come up don't worry about them. unless it does not optimize. 

Optimizing Mizs motor.





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## [email protected] (Aug 21, 2017)

Today I ran the optimization procedure and it has worked. I can now pull away in second gear quite reasonably. I am just lazy, as 1st gear is a good solid pull. Got up to 90 on the main road, no controller overheat errors (no errors at all). I only got the expected parameter change error. I didn't jack the wheels off the ground and ran the procedure. When I went to pull awa, the drive was in reverse, so I ran it again with the throttle setting at -1 and then it was fine. The slip gain came back as 1.65 first time, then 1.75 second time. I remembered that this was not accurate so I tried to set this to 1.33, but the setting are to the nearest 0.05, so I set this to 1.35 as recommended for an HPEVS AC50 motor. Next job to rig up the tacho driver.

Thanks to everybody for your help. I am a happy zappy electric car driver again. Visit my site where I shall blog this challenge at:
http://www.probtron.blogspot.com


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