# [EVDL] Rabbit rear wheel alignment



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Hello folks [delurking, it's been a year almost...],

I was wondering if any EVDL'ers have encountered the
non-adjustability of rear wheel alignment on VW Rabbits (or other
front-wheel drive cars with no rear wheel alignment adjustment).
Apparently there are two ways to adjust the rear wheel alignment:
(1) have an alignment shop use a jig or vise to twist the rear
trailing arms to spec; (2) use shims behind the rear wheel
spindles. One local EV'er mentioned the jig to me some years ago
when I was tentatively approaching this issue on my car, and I
believe it was Bill Dube who recommended using shims back then.
I see alignment mentioned frequently on the EVDL, but it is
almost always for the front end of the car.

I've looked at a few stock Rabbits, Jettas and whatnot, and also
my own ~VoltsRabbit conversion from the rear, and I've seen
plenty of negative camber and toe-in on these vehicles. Since my
own alignment shop experiences have never drawn an out-of-spec
red on my rear wheel alignment, I haven't pursued the matter. I
always assumed that once going down the road, the toe-in would
drag to roughly no toe-in, and the negative camber would be ok
(heck, probably helps with cornering). I would also be surprised
if VW could've produce that big rear suspension piece with its
trailing arms, and gotten the alignment precise everytime. Minor
adjustments would've been in order it seems. Also fatigue sets
in over the years.

But I'm no longer willing to take this point of view. I recently
took the Goodyear Integrity P185-70R13 tire from the driver's
side rear corner into the tire shop to get a screw pulled out of
the inside shoulder of the tread. Aside from the fact that the
tire shop was unwilling to take the screw out of the shoulder
(and the tire had already been patched three times, and all the
other tires have been patched at least once - the Integritys have
been horrible in this regard), they pointed out the inner part of
the tread near the shoulder was down to minimum tread spec
(2/32", I believe they said). After only 17K miles! I had
really hoped that with a properly sized tire (according to
Goodyear's Bill Egan's recommendation), I would clear an easy 25K
miles. After getting only 15K out of my P175-70R13 Invicta GLRs
(great rolling resistance, it seemed, but poor in other areas
including tread life), I'm rather bummed about my conversion's
tire habits. The tires on my 1986 Toyota 4Runner have roughly
the same number miles as the Integritys, been down some rough 4WD
roads (but mostly freeway and not city miles), and frankly, look
near new, with potential tire life of well over 50K (Michelin's
are nice tires, too). The truck frankly seems to roll easier
too, with no swoosh swoosh noise like I heard the other day from
the Rabbit when I was close to a building with the window down
(sounds like tread noise, but it might be a patch, or the tread
squirming because of alignment).

So now I am set to do something about the alignment on my Rabbit.
After some brief internet perusing, it appears that there are
shims (in the shape of a wheel) that can handle both toe-in and
camber in one fell swoop (how that plays out I would have to look
at more). The spindle backing plate bolts go through the holes
in the shim, so the shim can't fall out. Nylon shims are
apparently to be avoided, as they will crush over time. I'd like
to know if anybody has set their rear-wheel alignment with shims,
if they have recommendations, and what brand they used. How did
it go? Handling change? Please give me all the grungy details.

I threw up the alignment specs for this car from last Aug (when I
got new Bilstein struts, so the front alignment had to be
redone). URL is http://tinyurl.com/4ye76s. Note that none of
the rear is painted red (which I assume means out of spec), but
maybe because there is no adjustment, the alignment computer
doesn't color-ize it. Both sides have negative camber, I can see
it visually. It's not surprising, given that the car gained
roughly 250lbs on each corner during the conversion. That toe-in
(visually there, somewhat surprising) is going to cause extra
drag => extra WH, it would seem. I wonder if extra weight means
I should set the toe-in just slightly negative, on the theory
that the extra weight is going to cause the tire to drag out a
little further than stock.

I don't smack this car into curbs and bounce it into potholes.
In fact, I baby it. It is carrying the 1000-lb battery pack,
though, these 14 years, although it's always had some weird
alignment issues. I do remember one bodyshop back in 1996, when
I was going to get the body cleaned up and have it painted,
telling me that they did see marks on the underside seams
suggesting that the car had been straightened after an accident;
nobody else mentioned that. Also, the driver's side A-arm is
perhaps just slightly bent, which may be causing that camber
issue (I guess camber and caster cannot be set separately on
these Rabbits, and the alignment shop may have dialed in for
caster).

There's always the issue of the increased conversion weight. Is
it valid to use stock alignment specs? What else can you do
except that?

Any alignment experts out there? Please be liberal in your
comments.

I'll quit yammering now and shuddup.

Thanks,
Chuck

_______________________________________________
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----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Have you checked that everything is tight? Looseness in the wheel bearings could be the problem.


----- Original Message ----
From: Chuck Hursch <[email protected]>
To: EVDL post <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, June 30, 2008 3:56:23 PM
Subject: [EVDL] Rabbit rear wheel alignment

Hello folks [delurking, it's been a year almost...],

I was wondering if any EVDL'ers have encountered the
non-adjustability of rear wheel alignment on VW Rabbits (or other
front-wheel drive cars with no rear wheel alignment adjustment).
Apparently there are two ways to adjust the rear wheel alignment:
(1) have an alignment shop use a jig or vise to twist the rear
trailing arms to spec; (2) use shims behind the rear wheel
spindles. One local EV'er mentioned the jig to me some years ago
when I was tentatively approaching this issue on my car, and I
believe it was Bill Dube who recommended using shims back then.
I see alignment mentioned frequently on the EVDL, but it is
almost always for the front end of the car.

I've looked at a few stock Rabbits, Jettas and whatnot, and also
my own ~VoltsRabbit conversion from the rear, and I've seen
plenty of negative camber and toe-in on these vehicles. Since my
own alignment shop experiences have never drawn an out-of-spec
red on my rear wheel alignment, I haven't pursued the matter. I
always assumed that once going down the road, the toe-in would
drag to roughly no toe-in, and the negative camber would be ok
(heck, probably helps with cornering). I would also be surprised
if VW could've produce that big rear suspension piece with its
trailing arms, and gotten the alignment precise everytime. Minor
adjustments would've been in order it seems. Also fatigue sets
in over the years.

But I'm no longer willing to take this point of view. I recently
took the Goodyear Integrity P185-70R13 tire from the driver's
side rear corner into the tire shop to get a screw pulled out of
the inside shoulder of the tread. Aside from the fact that the
tire shop was unwilling to take the screw out of the shoulder
(and the tire had already been patched three times, and all the
other tires have been patched at least once - the Integritys have
been horrible in this regard), they pointed out the inner part of
the tread near the shoulder was down to minimum tread spec
(2/32", I believe they said). After only 17K miles! I had
really hoped that with a properly sized tire (according to
Goodyear's Bill Egan's recommendation), I would clear an easy 25K
miles. After getting only 15K out of my P175-70R13 Invicta GLRs
(great rolling resistance, it seemed, but poor in other areas
including tread life), I'm rather bummed about my conversion's
tire habits. The tires on my 1986 Toyota 4Runner have roughly
the same number miles as the Integritys, been down some rough 4WD
roads (but mostly freeway and not city miles), and frankly, look
near new, with potential tire life of well over 50K (Michelin's
are nice tires, too). The truck frankly seems to roll easier
too, with no swoosh swoosh noise like I heard the other day from
the Rabbit when I was close to a building with the window down
(sounds like tread noise, but it might be a patch, or the tread
squirming because of alignment).

So now I am set to do something about the alignment on my Rabbit.
After some brief internet perusing, it appears that there are
shims (in the shape of a wheel) that can handle both toe-in and
camber in one fell swoop (how that plays out I would have to look
at more). The spindle backing plate bolts go through the holes
in the shim, so the shim can't fall out. Nylon shims are
apparently to be avoided, as they will crush over time. I'd like
to know if anybody has set their rear-wheel alignment with shims,
if they have recommendations, and what brand they used. How did
it go? Handling change? Please give me all the grungy details.

I threw up the alignment specs for this car from last Aug (when I
got new Bilstein struts, so the front alignment had to be
redone). URL is http://tinyurl.com/4ye76s. Note that none of
the rear is painted red (which I assume means out of spec), but
maybe because there is no adjustment, the alignment computer
doesn't color-ize it. Both sides have negative camber, I can see
it visually. It's not surprising, given that the car gained
roughly 250lbs on each corner during the conversion. That toe-in
(visually there, somewhat surprising) is going to cause extra
drag => extra WH, it would seem. I wonder if extra weight means
I should set the toe-in just slightly negative, on the theory
that the extra weight is going to cause the tire to drag out a
little further than stock.

I don't smack this car into curbs and bounce it into potholes.
In fact, I baby it. It is carrying the 1000-lb battery pack,
though, these 14 years, although it's always had some weird
alignment issues. I do remember one bodyshop back in 1996, when
I was going to get the body cleaned up and have it painted,
telling me that they did see marks on the underside seams
suggesting that the car had been straightened after an accident;
nobody else mentioned that. Also, the driver's side A-arm is
perhaps just slightly bent, which may be causing that camber
issue (I guess camber and caster cannot be set separately on
these Rabbits, and the alignment shop may have dialed in for
caster).

There's always the issue of the increased conversion weight. Is
it valid to use stock alignment specs? What else can you do
except that?

Any alignment experts out there? Please be liberal in your
comments.

I'll quit yammering now and shuddup.

Thanks,
Chuck

_______________________________________________
For subscription options, see
http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev




_______________________________________________
For subscription options, see
http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Hi Chuck an' EVerybiody;

Gees! Any Rabbbits left?! Hah, they have ALL gone to the Great Junkyard in 
the sky, around here. EVen PARTS are non existant!Well, I probably would 
STILL have mine hsad I not killed it towing it home from Joliet?

Anyhow I DID have the rear end alignment issue, went through the same shit 
yur going through! I changed the whole damn swing axle rear end, this helped 
to retrurn it so the tires lasted. But with 1200 lbs of batteries It DIOD 
look like it was out of whack in the rear end, but most of that was an 
optical disalusion!Car tracked OK, Even getting my recortd 100 mile run, 
with 20 T145's stuffed aboard!Used to easily do more than 100 miles a day, 
stuffing back power at 70 amps , like at lunch time,on my famous "Lirttle 
Blue Box" charger, half wave setup off the 240 volt mains using BOTH 120 
volt sides. Gave true meaning to "stench Chord"Usually turning those plastic 
range chords into hot silly putty!

As for rw alignment you get the luck of the draw I guess, I had piles of 
Rabbits I had parted out over the years. Just go out back and dig up a new 
rear swing axle. They change out easy enough, 4 bolts to the chassis, the 
handbrake cables and Hydralic lines. Pain in the ass, as they, brake lines, 
Break,(English? Aint it fun??) and you end up going through the whole damn 
car, but it IS a nice feeling to know ya got new brake lines! But worth it 
when the shop guy can set stuff. I know thery have shimsd to slip under the 
axle bolts, that hold that silly little axle stub on to the axle. The other 
laugh is STOCK Wabbit brake drums. Look like off a motor scooter!Jetta ones 
will bolt on, giving you almost believeable rear brakes?I ran Jettas' for 
years!I guess the VW engineers wern't figguring on 1300 lbs of batteries 
when they designed BARELY enough brakes for the car that they DID 
build.??Well, that goes for the suspension, too. I had BMW springs in back 
and it rode at about the correct height. The alignment shop seemed OK with 
the setup I ran it with in it's last few years of it's life?I had Coil 
Spring Spec's wind me NEW front springs as the Diseasel ones wre tired, car 
wode low. The CSS ones were GREAT! I'm a happy camper! This is why I 
recommend these folks.Rabbit FINALLY sat about level, fore and aft. I think 
that this goes a long way with the alignment game? How the car SITS, level? 
The suspension, even if the car is as heavy as a small locomotive, likes the 
ride height, to get optimal camber/caster or what EVEr thay call it.?

Jetta has the same setup, and so far tires are doing fine several thou 
later. Granted it, too, is in retirement mode? Not having to do my basic RR 
comute EVery day, of 50 plus miles1 I knowI had to get Rabbit realigned 
BADLY after flat towing it to Hagerstown a few years ago. I musta towed it 
through a BIG ass pothole, the kind you look in the mirror to see if anthing 
fell off!?I go to drive it to work the next day and had to fight the wheel 
the whole way. Let go and ya got a right turn!Tires were down to the wire 
thread INside, outs looked fine? 2 tires were scrap, and a realignment sure 
made a difference!! rolled like a train again!

To comment on Lee's thread on the Detroit e;lectric, Yes, the Detroit 
guyz musta laid awake nights trying to "clean" stuff up. Fine cut worm 
gears, already a done deal technology, in the teens, HARD tires, maybe solid 
ones?Possably soft springs?Aluminum bodies, but the drag co- ineffient of a 
streetcar, A Brill or Niles?!As Lee sez the drag thing isn't that big a 
deal? But I sure noticed in Taiwan, when I fitted a windshield in my NEV 
type car!!At 27-30 mph it took MORE amps!No windshield was my econo-Taiwan 
air conditioning!Ya waited for the rain to stop!Fenders were a neccessity 
with water buffalo exhaust in the streets! I hope there are Taiwanese guyz 
working on a better car as I speak?Taiwanese batteries MIGHT be better 
quality than mainland stuff?

Anybody listening in Taiwan? Come out, say "Hi!"A EAA Chapter in 
Taichung, Kaohsiung, Tai Pei,Tai Nan, Kee Lung?? I think of a Global Village 
here?Ya got a 170 MPH bullet train, now. Maybe folks there want to break the 
gas grip on the economy?

Oh oh soprta got off trak about Rabbit tracking. hope these liner 
helped?You can chat up a good alignment shop?

Happy Rabbit-ing!

Bob, HAD one.
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Chuck Hursch" <[email protected]>
To: "EVDL post" <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, June 30, 2008 5:56 PM
Subject: [EVDL] Rabbit rear wheel alignment


> Hello folks [delurking, it's been a year almost...],

No Excuse!! Welcome back, Chuck! 

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

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aXN0aW5mby9ldg==


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> 
> Hello folks [delurking, it's been a year almost...],
> 
> I was wondering if any EVDL'ers have encountered the
> non-adjustability of rear wheel alignment on VW Rabbits (or other
> front-wheel drive cars with no rear wheel alignment adjustment).
> Apparently there are two ways to adjust the rear wheel alignment:
> (1) have an alignment shop use a jig or vise to twist the rear
> trailing arms to spec; 

This used to be common practice descending from the days of solid front axles but is not a good practice and not even legal anymore

(2) use shims behind the rear wheel
> spindles. 


This is the correct and manufacturer specified method of adjustment

One local EV'er mentioned the jig to me some years ago
> when I was tentatively approaching this issue on my car, and I
> believe it was Bill Dube who recommended using shims back then.
> I see alignment mentioned frequently on the EVDL, but it is
> almost always for the front end of the car.
> 
> I've looked at a few stock Rabbits, Jettas and whatnot, and also
> my own ~VoltsRabbit conversion from the rear, and I've seen
> plenty of negative camber and toe-in on these vehicles. Since my
> own alignment shop experiences have never drawn an out-of-spec
> red on my rear wheel alignment, I haven't pursued the matter. 


Most alignment techs don't want to mess with anything that is going to require them to mess with shimming the rear wheels and most often if you don't specify what you want you are only going to get a 2 wheel alignment and they are not even going to look at the rear, on top of that manufacturer specs for the rear tend to be very generous



I
> always assumed that once going down the road, the toe-in would
> drag to roughly no toe-in, 

There should be minimal change in rear toe between static and rolling measurements (you are correct there will be some movement towards toe out on the rear of a front wheel drive) assuming your bearings and suspension components are in good order


and the negative camber would be ok 

tire wear issues from the camber but not excess rolling resistance


> (heck, probably helps with cornering). I would also be surprised
> if VW could've produce that big rear suspension piece with its
> trailing arms, and gotten the alignment precise everytime. Minor
> adjustments would've been in order it seems. Also fatigue sets
> in over the years.

This is a really big issue with these vehicles and especially when you add the weight of a battery pack to it, also that whole rear assembly is supposed to flex (alot) to provide for an independent rear suspension (even though they are connected but they move separately) you add a lot of weight and you exaggerate that flex



> 
> But I'm no longer willing to take this point of view. I recently
> took the Goodyear Integrity P185-70R13 tire from the driver's
> side rear corner into the tire shop to get a screw pulled out of
> the inside shoulder of the tread. Aside from the fact that the
> tire shop was unwilling to take the screw out of the shoulder
> (and the tire had already been patched three times, and all the
> other tires have been patched at least once - the Integritys have
> been horrible in this regard), they pointed out the inner part of
> the tread near the shoulder was down to minimum tread spec
> (2/32", I believe they said). After only 17K miles! I had
> really hoped that with a properly sized tire (according to
> Goodyear's Bill Egan's recommendation), I would clear an easy 25K
> miles. After getting only 15K out of my P175-70R13 Invicta GLRs
> (great rolling resistance, it seemed, but poor in other areas
> including tread life), I'm rather bummed about my conversion's
> tire habits. The tires on my 1986 Toyota 4Runner have roughly
> the same number miles as the Integritys, been down some rough 4WD
> roads (but mostly freeway and not city miles), and frankly, look
> near new, with potential tire life of well over 50K (Michelin's
> are nice tires, too). 

Don't forget that your 13" tires are making many more revolutions per mile than the tires on your 4runner, each bit of the tread is seeing many more instances of road contact and in a conversion they are carrying far more weight than any 13" tire is designed to, switching to 14" rims will give you access to better rated tires and switching to a taller profile will increase tire life and decrease rolling resistance


The truck frankly seems to roll easier
> too, with no swoosh swoosh noise like I heard the other day from
> the Rabbit when I was close to a building with the window down
> (sounds like tread noise, but it might be a patch, or the tread
> squirming because of alignment).


My Jetta also eats wheel bearings like there is no tomorrow and in the rear this causes brake drag, wooshing type noises and negative camber



> 
> So now I am set to do something about the alignment on my Rabbit.
> After some brief internet perusing, it appears that there are
> shims (in the shape of a wheel) that can handle both toe-in and
> camber in one fell swoop (how that plays out I would have to look
> at more). 

The shims are chosen to give you x degrees of change you can position them so that you get x degrees of change in toe or x degrees of change in camber or 20% of x change in toe and 80%of x change in camber or any variation thereof



The spindle backing plate bolts go through the holes
> in the shim, so the shim can't fall out. Nylon shims are
> apparently to be avoided, as they will crush over time. 


That makes sense but all of the ones I have ever used have been some sort of nylon like plastic material, never seen an alternative


I'd like
> to know if anybody has set their rear-wheel alignment with shims,
> if they have recommendations, and what brand they used. How did
> it go? Handling change? Please give me all the grungy details.
> 
> I threw up the alignment specs for this car from last Aug (when I
> got new Bilstein struts, so the front alignment had to be
> redone). URL is http://tinyurl.com/4ye76s. Note that none of
> the rear is painted red (which I assume means out of spec), but
> maybe because there is no adjustment, the alignment computer
> doesn't color-ize it. Both sides have negative camber, I can see
> it visually. It's not surprising, given that the car gained
> roughly 250lbs on each corner during the conversion. That toe-in
> (visually there, somewhat surprising) is going to cause extra
> drag => extra WH, it would seem. I wonder if extra weight means
> I should set the toe-in just slightly negative, on the theory
> that the extra weight is going to cause the tire to drag out a
> little further than stock.


I would recommend starting with the stock toe numbers (probably camber too), give it a good drive on dry paved roads (preferably the ones you drive the most) and then record the tire temperatures inside edge center and outside edge for all four tires preferably with a tire pyrometer that pokes in a couple mm to measure the temps more consistently but I have found an infrared temp gun to be adequate as long as you dont drive through a puddle shortly before stopping. I will forward you a file later on deciphering the temp readings, this weill let you know where the problems are while in motion and you can start moving towards the specs that you vehicle needs from there



> 
> I don't smack this car into curbs and bounce it into potholes.
> In fact, I baby it. It is carrying the 1000-lb battery pack,
> though, these 14 years, although it's always had some weird
> alignment issues. I do remember one bodyshop back in 1996, when
> I was going to get the body cleaned up and have it painted,
> telling me that they did see marks on the underside seams
> suggesting that the car had been straightened after an accident;
> nobody else mentioned that. Also, the driver's side A-arm is
> perhaps just slightly bent, which may be causing that camber
> issue (I guess camber and caster cannot be set separately on
> these Rabbits, and the alignment shop may have dialed in for
> caster).


You NEED to replace a bent control arm, even if you get the alignment back into spec statically your camber gain and caster gains will never be correct in real world conditions, also on an older vehicle such as this all of the suspension bushings are much softer than they were when it was new allowing for more deviation from spec when under motion I'd strongly suggest replacing the control arm bushings and the rear "axle" assembly to frame bushings before beginning to tackle these issues, obviously all suspension components must be tight vw balljoints, tie rod ends and wheelbearings are all frequent failure items and with your battery pack in there the rate of failure is certain to increase


> 
> There's always the issue of the increased conversion weight. Is
> it valid to use stock alignment specs? What else can you do
> except that?

(see above)
> 

> Any alignment experts out there? Please be liberal in your
> comments.
> 
> I'll quit yammering now and shuddup.
> 
> Thanks,
> Chuck
> 
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev

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----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

I'll bite. Where'd you get the NiMH battery pack?



> shred <[email protected]> wrote:
> >
> > The only problem I have had with my Voltsrabbit is the stock brakes aren't
> > powerful enough & there was almost no front suspension left with an 800lb
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Hi David,

There is a little bit of slop in the driver's-side bearings.
When I've tried tightening the nut up further, the drag increases
significantly as I'm rolling the drum by hand. Might not hurt to
have new bearings installed - I doubt those are that expensive -
we put new ones in when we converted it. Would also be an
opportunity to go to synthetic grease, which I understand Mike
Slominski used on his Rabbit that rolled so well and had great
range - he mentioned the synthetics to me one time.

Chuck

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "David Dymaxion" <[email protected]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, June 30, 2008 3:18 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Rabbit rear wheel alignment


> Have you checked that everything is tight? Looseness in the
wheel bearings could be the problem.
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----
> From: Chuck Hursch <[email protected]>
> To: EVDL post <[email protected]>
> Sent: Monday, June 30, 2008 3:56:23 PM
> Subject: [EVDL] Rabbit rear wheel alignment
>
> Hello folks [delurking, it's been a year almost...],
>
> I was wondering if any EVDL'ers have encountered the
> non-adjustability of rear wheel alignment on VW Rabbits (or
other
> front-wheel drive cars with no rear wheel alignment
adjustment).
> Apparently there are two ways to adjust the rear wheel
alignment:
> (1) have an alignment shop use a jig or vise to twist the rear
> trailing arms to spec; (2) use shims behind the rear wheel
> spindles. One local EV'er mentioned the jig to me some years
ago
> when I was tentatively approaching this issue on my car, and I
> believe it was Bill Dube who recommended using shims back then.
> I see alignment mentioned frequently on the EVDL, but it is
> almost always for the front end of the car.
>
> I've looked at a few stock Rabbits, Jettas and whatnot, and
also
> my own ~VoltsRabbit conversion from the rear, and I've seen
> plenty of negative camber and toe-in on these vehicles. Since
my
> own alignment shop experiences have never drawn an out-of-spec
> red on my rear wheel alignment, I haven't pursued the matter.
I
> always assumed that once going down the road, the toe-in would
> drag to roughly no toe-in, and the negative camber would be ok
> (heck, probably helps with cornering). I would also be
surprised
> if VW could've produce that big rear suspension piece with its
> trailing arms, and gotten the alignment precise everytime.
Minor
> adjustments would've been in order it seems. Also fatigue sets
> in over the years.
>
> But I'm no longer willing to take this point of view. I
recently
> took the Goodyear Integrity P185-70R13 tire from the driver's
> side rear corner into the tire shop to get a screw pulled out
of
> the inside shoulder of the tread. Aside from the fact that the
> tire shop was unwilling to take the screw out of the shoulder
> (and the tire had already been patched three times, and all the
> other tires have been patched at least once - the Integritys
have
> been horrible in this regard), they pointed out the inner part
of
> the tread near the shoulder was down to minimum tread spec
> (2/32", I believe they said). After only 17K miles! I had
> really hoped that with a properly sized tire (according to
> Goodyear's Bill Egan's recommendation), I would clear an easy
25K
> miles. After getting only 15K out of my P175-70R13 Invicta
GLRs
> (great rolling resistance, it seemed, but poor in other areas
> including tread life), I'm rather bummed about my conversion's
> tire habits. The tires on my 1986 Toyota 4Runner have roughly
> the same number miles as the Integritys, been down some rough
4WD
> roads (but mostly freeway and not city miles), and frankly,
look
> near new, with potential tire life of well over 50K (Michelin's
> are nice tires, too). The truck frankly seems to roll easier
> too, with no swoosh swoosh noise like I heard the other day
from
> the Rabbit when I was close to a building with the window down
> (sounds like tread noise, but it might be a patch, or the tread
> squirming because of alignment).
>
> So now I am set to do something about the alignment on my
Rabbit.
> After some brief internet perusing, it appears that there are
> shims (in the shape of a wheel) that can handle both toe-in and
> camber in one fell swoop (how that plays out I would have to
look
> at more). The spindle backing plate bolts go through the holes
> in the shim, so the shim can't fall out. Nylon shims are
> apparently to be avoided, as they will crush over time. I'd
like
> to know if anybody has set their rear-wheel alignment with
shims,
> if they have recommendations, and what brand they used. How
did
> it go? Handling change? Please give me all the grungy
details.
>
> I threw up the alignment specs for this car from last Aug (when
I
> got new Bilstein struts, so the front alignment had to be
> redone). URL is http://tinyurl.com/4ye76s. Note that none of
> the rear is painted red (which I assume means out of spec), but
> maybe because there is no adjustment, the alignment computer
> doesn't color-ize it. Both sides have negative camber, I can
see
> it visually. It's not surprising, given that the car gained
> roughly 250lbs on each corner during the conversion. That
toe-in
> (visually there, somewhat surprising) is going to cause extra
> drag => extra WH, it would seem. I wonder if extra weight
means
> I should set the toe-in just slightly negative, on the theory
> that the extra weight is going to cause the tire to drag out a
> little further than stock.
>
> I don't smack this car into curbs and bounce it into potholes.
> In fact, I baby it. It is carrying the 1000-lb battery pack,
> though, these 14 years, although it's always had some weird
> alignment issues. I do remember one bodyshop back in 1996,
when
> I was going to get the body cleaned up and have it painted,
> telling me that they did see marks on the underside seams
> suggesting that the car had been straightened after an
accident;
> nobody else mentioned that. Also, the driver's side A-arm is
> perhaps just slightly bent, which may be causing that camber
> issue (I guess camber and caster cannot be set separately on
> these Rabbits, and the alignment shop may have dialed in for
> caster).
>
> There's always the issue of the increased conversion weight.
Is
> it valid to use stock alignment specs? What else can you do
> except that?
>
> Any alignment experts out there? Please be liberal in your
> comments.
>
> I'll quit yammering now and shuddup.
>
> Thanks,
> Chuck
>
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev

_______________________________________________
For subscription options, see
http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Now for the long Bob Rice message... (I always enjoy reading 'em
tho') Comments interspersed.

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Bob Rice" <[email protected]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, June 30, 2008 4:22 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Rabbit rear wheel alignment


> Hi Chuck an' EVerybiody;
>
> Gees! Any Rabbbits left?! Hah, they have ALL gone to the
Great Junkyard in
> the sky, around here. EVen PARTS are non existant!Well, I
probably would
> STILL have mine hsad I not killed it towing it home from
Joliet?

I've frequently had people come up to the car in the supermarket
parking lot and ask about it - it is in good shape, although rot
is always a chase. Little do they know it is also electric, till
they ask the fuel type, and I tell them. Their eyes grow bigger
still... ;^>
>
> Anyhow I DID have the rear end alignment issue, went through
the same shit
> yur going through! I changed the whole damn swing axle rear
end, this helped
> to retrurn it so the tires lasted. But with 1200 lbs of
batteries It DIOD
> look like it was out of whack in the rear end, but most of that
was an
> optical disalusion!Car tracked OK, Even getting my recortd 100
mile run,
> with 20 T145's stuffed aboard!Used to easily do more than 100
miles a day,
> stuffing back power at 70 amps , like at lunch time,on my
famous "Lirttle
> Blue Box" charger, half wave setup off the 240 volt mains using
BOTH 120
> volt sides. Gave true meaning to "stench Chord"Usually turning
those plastic
> range chords into hot silly putty!

You had a lot of kwhs in that 120V pack. My best run is 72
miles, with several over 60.
>
> As for rw alignment you get the luck of the draw I guess, I
had piles of
> Rabbits I had parted out over the years. Just go out back and
dig up a new
> rear swing axle. They change out easy enough, 4 bolts to the
chassis, the
> handbrake cables and Hydralic lines. Pain in the ass, as they,
brake lines,
> Break,(English? Aint it fun??) and you end up going through the
whole damn
> car, but it IS a nice feeling to know ya got new brake lines!
But worth it
> when the shop guy can set stuff. I know thery have shimsd to
slip under the
> axle bolts, that hold that silly little axle stub on to the
axle. The other
> laugh is STOCK Wabbit brake drums. Look like off a motor
scooter!Jetta ones
> will bolt on, giving you almost believeable rear brakes?I ran
Jettas' for
> years!I guess the VW engineers wern't figguring on 1300 lbs of
batteries
> when they designed BARELY enough brakes for the car that they
DID
> build.??Well, that goes for the suspension, too. I had BMW
springs in back
> and it rode at about the correct height. The alignment shop
seemed OK with
> the setup I ran it with in it's last few years of it's life?I
had Coil
> Spring Spec's wind me NEW front springs as the Diseasel ones
wre tired, car
> wode low. The CSS ones were GREAT! I'm a happy camper! This is
why I
> recommend these folks.Rabbit FINALLY sat about level, fore and
aft. I think
> that this goes a long way with the alignment game? How the car
SITS, level?
> The suspension, even if the car is as heavy as a small
locomotive, likes the
> ride height, to get optimal camber/caster or what EVEr thay
call it.?

Pulling the axle is certainly more than I could do in the carport
and would have to be done by my mechanic. Also locating a better
swing axle than what I have could be problematic.

The brake drums are small, but they don't appear to get used
much. The carbon kevlar linings that I had put in there in the
late 90s still look new. They also enabled a noisy stop if I
yanked up on the emergency brake on my hill; previously with
stock linings if I did that, the car would just keep going, but
no faster. The action/wear seems to be mostly in the front
brakes.

Have a second set of ElectroAutomotive rear springs installed
about three years ago - the first ones had fatigued out and I
could see the squat - the springs were down about 1/4" inch with
no load on the springs. Ride height is actually a little more
than (fatigued) stock.

I now have a rather expensive set of Bilstein struts in the car,
installed in August. I forget which model at the moment. But
those made one heck of a difference in the ride. And my wallet -
$1200 including installation. Getting close to that Camry
ride... where my dentures stay in when I hit a bump. Road noise
(better with these shocks) and tranny noise still significant
issues.
>
> Jetta has the same setup, and so far tires are doing fine
several thou
> later. Granted it, too, is in retirement mode? Not having to do
my basic RR
> comute EVery day, of 50 plus miles1 I knowI had to get Rabbit
realigned
> BADLY after flat towing it to Hagerstown a few years ago. I
musta towed it
> through a BIG ass pothole, the kind you look in the mirror to
see if anthing
> fell off!?I go to drive it to work the next day and had to
fight the wheel
> the whole way. Let go and ya got a right turn!Tires were down
to the wire
> thread INside, outs looked fine? 2 tires were scrap, and a
realignment sure
> made a difference!! rolled like a train again!

Towing this car with the 4Runner has been much more of a
white-knuckled affair than I had hoped. Towing front-wheel drive
is apparently trickier than a rear-wheel drive car, due to how
the alignment changes in the front tires when being pulled. It's
skittish, and when I change lanes, the 4Runner moves, the Rabbit
wants to keep going straight, so there is this moment of
instability when the two are fighting each other till the Rabbit
hoes the line. The 4Runner is basically a half-ton pickup with a
four-cylinder engine. While it will tow the Rabbit up my hill
just as fast as the Rabbit can do it itself, getting a start up
much of a grade without transfer case gear multiplication is
quite problematic, as is pulling onto a busy freeway. Such are
the times I would wish for a heavier truck with a V8 and some
real oomph pulling power. And forget emergency maneuvers at
speed.
>
> To comment on Lee's thread on the Detroit e;lectric, Yes,
the Detroit
> guyz musta laid awake nights trying to "clean" stuff up. Fine
cut worm
> gears, already a done deal technology, in the teens, HARD
tires, maybe solid
> ones?Possably soft springs?Aluminum bodies, but the drag co-
ineffient of a
> streetcar, A Brill or Niles?!As Lee sez the drag thing isn't
that big a
> deal? But I sure noticed in Taiwan, when I fitted a windshield
in my NEV
> type car!!At 27-30 mph it took MORE amps!No windshield was my
econo-Taiwan
> air conditioning!Ya waited for the rain to stop!Fenders were a
neccessity
> with water buffalo exhaust in the streets! I hope there are
Taiwanese guyz
> working on a better car as I speak?Taiwanese batteries MIGHT be
better
> quality than mainland stuff?
>
> Anybody listening in Taiwan? Come out, say "Hi!"A EAA
Chapter in
> Taichung, Kaohsiung, Tai Pei,Tai Nan, Kee Lung?? I think of a
Global Village
> here?Ya got a 170 MPH bullet train, now. Maybe folks there want
to break the
> gas grip on the economy?
>
> Oh oh soprta got off trak about Rabbit tracking. hope these
liner
> helped?You can chat up a good alignment shop?
>
> Happy Rabbit-ing!
>
> Bob, HAD one.
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Chuck Hursch" <[email protected]>
> To: "EVDL post" <[email protected]>
> Sent: Monday, June 30, 2008 5:56 PM
> Subject: [EVDL] Rabbit rear wheel alignment
>
>
> > Hello folks [delurking, it's been a year almost...],
>
> No Excuse!! Welcome back, Chuck!
>
> _______________________________________________
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> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

robert harder" <[email protected]> wrote Monday, June 30,
2008 5:50 PM:
>
[snip]
> > I've looked at a few stock Rabbits, Jettas and whatnot, and
also
> > my own ~VoltsRabbit conversion from the rear, and I've seen
> > plenty of negative camber and toe-in on these vehicles.
Since my
> > own alignment shop experiences have never drawn an
out-of-spec
> > red on my rear wheel alignment, I haven't pursued the matter.
>
>
> Most alignment techs don't want to mess with anything that is
going to require them to mess with shimming the rear wheels and
most often if you don't specify what you want you are only going
to get a 2 wheel alignment and they are not even going to look at
the rear, on top of that manufacturer specs for the rear tend to
be very generous

Agreed on the generous manufacturer specs. Seems that they are
generous enough to lead you into wearing out tires.
>
[snip]
>
> Don't forget that your 13" tires are making many more
revolutions per mile than the tires on your 4runner, each bit of
the tread is seeing many more instances of road contact and in a
conversion they are carrying far more weight than any 13" tire is
designed to, switching to 14" rims will give you access to better
rated tires and switching to a taller profile will increase tire
life and decrease rolling resistance

The 4Runner has LT235-70R15 (that's off the top of my head, but I
believe it is correct) tires. They're certainly bigger than the
Rabbit's tires. Since my Rabbit's tires are P185-70R13, if I
remember how this goes, we have same tire aspect (70), so the 15"
vs the 13" wheel diameter is the only thing that will affect
circumference, and tire revolutions per mile. C=2(pi)R, right?,
so the ratio is 15/13. That's not a whopper of a difference...

I discussed tire sizing back around 2001 with Bill Egan of
Goodyear (a lot of
EVDL'ers may remember him), and after going over the weight of
the car, and front/rear weight ratios, he recommended the
P185-70R13 Integritys. He was aiming for a certain "loading"
percentage
(you don't find this # on the publicly-available
tire charts, but he had the #s), and 185's were about right for a
car of this weight, as opposed to the 175 size, which a lot of
converted Rabbits run, it seems. Bill also recommended F/R tire
pressures of 44/34psi. I know going to the 185s gave me an extra
500lbs carrying capacity (at max tire pressure) spread across the
four tires, according to the tire charts on the website. Thus I
figured a 185 tire would last longer than a 175 tire; also the
Integritys had 440 wear rating, whereas the Invictas I had before
were at 240 (I believe it was).

However, once the Integritys were installed, it certainly seemed
to take more amps to power down the road. I wonder if a wider
tire sitting on those toed-in rear corners would amplify the
toe-in drag over a 175 tire. Seems that it would. Also new
tires vs
old ones, which usually roll easier. The new Integritys had
about the same roll-out distance in the parking lot coast-down
test as the new Invictas did. But the Invictas as they got older
certainly seemed to go much further, and I don't think the
Integritys as they have aged have come close. But it's hard to
line up all the variables as the tests occurred over many years.

What would you recommend for tires (the million-$ ?) and wheels?
One goal I have is to try for lighter wheels. I know the EV1 had
14" wheels that weighed 8lbs apiece. That's 32lbs for four. My
13" steel wheels on the Rabbit I recall weighing in at 15lbs
apiece. That's 60lbs for four, or 28lbs more unsprung weight. I
have thought some about going all the way to 15" wheels, and I
know that people do put 15" tires on Rabbits. It's a tight fit
depending on the tire spec. But I could get bigger brakes inside
those wheels, and there should be more tire choice. Not much is
done at the 13" size anymore.

Sigh... cash flow IS a problem (reality check!).
>
[snip]
>
> That makes sense but all of the ones I have ever used have been
some sort of nylon like plastic material, never seen an
alternative

You never had one crush and your alignment become flaky? Have
any preferences for tire shims?
>
[snip]
>
> I would recommend starting with the stock toe numbers (probably
camber too), give it a good drive on dry paved roads (preferably
the ones you drive the most) and then record the tire
temperatures inside edge center and outside edge for all four
tires preferably with a tire pyrometer that pokes in a couple mm
to measure the temps more consistently but I have found an
infrared temp gun to be adequate as long as you dont drive
through a puddle shortly before stopping. I will forward you a
file later on deciphering the temp readings, this weill let you
know where the problems are while in motion and you can start
moving towards the specs that you vehicle needs from there

Looking forward to the temp readings file. Perhaps you could
post it publicly so others on the EVDL could use it to help get
their alignment optimized.

What tire pyrometer do you use? There are some webpages that
discuss the use of a tire pyrometer. Looks like they start at
about $100 and go up from there.
[snip]

Chuck

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