# SCiB battery information?



## muffildy (Oct 11, 2011)

they are super expensive, and difficult to obtain.
to get them you would need to buy them from a schwinn tailwind bike retailer.
The batteries are 24 volt and 4.2 amp hours. They are made of 10 Toshiba cells, and have 6,000 charge cycles. Max continuous discharge 15 amps, peak less than 5 sec 30 amps.
http://www.toshiba.com/ind/data/tag_files/SCiB_Brochure_5383.pdf
the pack is 675$

Lets say you wanted to make a 96v pack capable of 500 amps...
4x packs to get volts, x 33 packs to get the amps (continous), so it would cost you 89100$ to power a good motor. or half that if your willing to use its peak, but that is still quite a large amount more than you would pay for the usual suspects of lithium battery.

they are also used in some EV cars supposedly, but i cannot find any parts vendors with replacement battery pricing.


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## jimberry3 (May 11, 2009)

Yes, the ScIB's are available, I have an "in" (a good friend) at Toshiba and started usung them in our conversions about a year ago. They have a bit less voltage than the average Lithium battery, but recharge time on the bench is great (have not been able to source a satisfactory motorcycle sized charger yet). I will check to see what availability is to end users that don't have the "in" available to them.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

I think Honda is using them in the new FitEV as well. Not that it helps us at all, though maybe some will fall off a truck like the A123 cells did


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## Ravishankar (Jan 26, 2009)

jimberry3 said:


> Yes, the ScIB's are available, I have an "in" (a good friend) at Toshiba and started usung them in our conversions about a year ago. They have a bit less voltage than the average Lithium battery, but recharge time on the bench is great (have not been able to source a satisfactory motorcycle sized charger yet). I will check to see what availability is to end users that don't have the "in" available to them.


Hi Jim,
How much do the SCiB cells cost over the LiFePO4 cells ? Just an rough figure..? Also what is the probability of "non-in" getting them ?


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## qryptiq (Dec 29, 2012)

New to the forum here. Just wondering what happened to jimberry3 and his contact point. I too am interested in the acib batteries.


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## jimberry3 (May 11, 2009)

Sorry, I don't get on here to often anymore. SCiB's are out there, Toshiba is only letting certain factory trained people assemble loose cells into packs with an accompanying bms and charging system. So it is not so much how much a loose cell will cost you it is what your pack configuration costs. I used to subscribe to the mentality of most DIY people that were offended when the manufacturer would not sell a loose cell or the like so "I" could do my own work because I am not stupid like a lot of others. But a company has to calculate the lowest common denominator when deciding to sell. To answer your question battery packs assembled to our design criteria in our boxes run about 1/3 again as much as the calbs, etc. but they have been worth it when I can recharge in about a third of the time. I can ride an electric motorcycle (goldwing style) about 275 miles and recharge during a nice long relaxed dinner and then continue riding.


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## Roy Von Rogers (Mar 21, 2009)

jimberry3 said:


> Sorry, I don't get on here to often anymore. SCiB's are out there, Toshiba is only letting certain factory trained people assemble loose cells into packs with an accompanying bms and charging system. So it is not so much how much a loose cell will cost you it is what your pack configuration costs. I used to subscribe to the mentality of most DIY people that were offended when the manufacturer would not sell a loose cell or the like so "I" could do my own work because I am not stupid like a lot of others. But a company has to calculate the lowest common denominator when deciding to sell. To answer your question battery packs assembled to our design criteria in our boxes run about 1/3 again as much as the calbs, etc. but they have been worth it when I can recharge in about a third of the time. I can ride an electric motorcycle (goldwing style) about 275 miles and recharge during a nice long relaxed dinner and then continue riding.


 
I'm a bit lost here at your post. Calb cells can be charged at 3C, the problem is not how fast you can charge a pack, but where will you get such power from.

How does the Toshiba battery let you put in faster ???

Roy


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## jimberry3 (May 11, 2009)

Different battery chemistry than the calb allows for faster recharge rates. I think the best way for people to get familiar with the SCiB is to look it up and the info should answer questions. I am quite sure there are a great many people out there that will poo poo the batteries and say they are poor performers and way to costly and that may be true to them but we use them in a lot of our projects and have found their recharge rates, cycle life, power output, and their tolerances to be well worth the price. In fact this June when we do an around the world electric motorcycle trip we will be using them.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

What size is your pack? Ah and V? What C rate do you charge at? Most people would be hard pressed to charge at a higher C rate than the CALBs are rated for.


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## jeremyjs (Sep 22, 2010)

What's the wh/kg of these cells? I was under the impression that it was pretty low, around lithium titanate, but never saw any hard numbers.

NVM. Should have read the posted .pdf. 65 wh/kg and it is a lithium titanate chemistry.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Yeah, energy density is crap, though that might be outdated data because I thought Toshiba had improved it.


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## jimberry3 (May 11, 2009)

Listen, you just need to understand something, IT IS A DIFFERENT CHEMISTRY than the calbs, winstons, thundersky, etc. therefore your charging profiles, etc. do not apply. Our packs, are made to fit a clients use and we always are required to run them by Toshiba before they will build them for us. So very few of our packs are the same.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

I think we understand quite well. Those cells are simply less desirable for most of our conversions than CALB cells. The higher C rates don't make up for the lower energy density and higher price. Not sure why you are getting so worked up, if they work for you and your clients, great.


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## jimberry3 (May 11, 2009)

Lol, thank you for your permission to calm down it is appreciated. I AGM not here to sell you these cells, I was just answering am inquiry. Yes to date we have 57 EV conversions on the road with them and 27 motorcycles and they are happy as hell with them. If you fools are not interested that's ok, not sure if they are the next best thing our not, just providing anecdotal info. I guess we will not put or 2001 cameo conversion with these batteries out here for participation. Have a wonderful and very safe new year all.


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## jimberry3 (May 11, 2009)

Lol, that will teach me to reply at night in a parked car on my mobile phone while waiting to pick up my son from work and not entirely proofread the reply. Autocorrect strikes again, AGM = am, fools = folks, cameo = Camaro


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## rochesterricer (Jan 5, 2011)

jimberry3 said:


> Lol, thank you for your permission to calm down it is appreciated. I AGM not here to sell you these cells, I was just answering am inquiry. Yes to date we have 57 EV conversions on the road with them and 27 motorcycles and they are happy as hell with them. If you fools are not interested that's ok, not sure if they are the next best thing our not, just providing anecdotal info. I guess we will not put or 2001 cameo conversion with these batteries out here for participation. Have a wonderful and very safe new year all.


Woah there. Firstly, please don't assume hostility in response like his. He isn't saying they suck or anything. He is simply saying they don't meet his needs or don't have the advantages he prefers. The forum experience works much better if you give people the benefit of the doubt and assume they aren't being hostile in most cases, as things like tone or intent don't always translate well to the written word 

Secondly, one or two users don't speak for an entire forum. I, for one, would be very interested in seeing these projects. Please do post up your project, I'm sure it would get a great reception here  Also, if you have links to any of the other conversions I would love to see them. I've been interested in these batteries since I first heard about them. IIRC, the Mitsubishi I uses these.


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## Sunking (Aug 10, 2009)

Wow what a Let Down. At first I got excited when I first read this. I thought finally there was a major leap in battery tech. Then I read the wh/Kg spec. Heck 48 wh/Kg is what a good Lead Acid battery density is.

Any know what the $/wh cost are? Might have applications in Renewable Energy applications if the $/wh cost can compete.


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

jimberry3 said:


> ..........In fact this June when we do an around the world electric motorcycle trip we will be using them.


Hi Jim,

You indicate you are in Columbus, Ohio and convert cars to electric and plan an around the world electric motorcycle trip. How odd is it that there is a guy named Jim Berry who converts cars to electric and plans an around the world electric motorcycle trip who lives in Tualatin, Oregon? Ref: http://www.tualatinlife.com/0909content/0909AroundTheWorld.html Any relationship or just coincidence?


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## rochesterricer (Jan 5, 2011)

Sunking said:


> Wow what a Let Down. At first I got excited when I first read this. I thought finally there was a major leap in battery tech. Then I read the wh/Kg spec. Heck 48 wh/Kg is what a good Lead Acid battery density is.
> 
> Any know what the $/wh cost are? Might have applications in Renewable Energy applications if the $/wh cost can compete.


They are already used in the Mitsubishi i-MiEV, along with a lot of the electric bus programs. It is attractive because it is capable of very high charge and discharge rates and has a very high cycle life. This allows for some very fast quick charging, which is especially useful in the bus applications. The long cycle life also makes it more financially viable over the long term for bus companies. 

The effective capacity of the chemistry is also higher than the wh/kg numbers would suggest, as they can handle a greater depth of discharge than other lithium chemistries. It also has the advantage of better performance and durability at both high and low temperatures.


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

jimberry3 said:


> I can ride an electric motorcycle (goldwing style) about 275 miles and recharge during a nice long relaxed dinner and then continue riding.


That's impressive. What charger do you use on the bike?


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

major said:


> Hi Jim,
> 
> You indicate you are in Columbus, Ohio and convert cars to electric and plan an around the world electric motorcycle trip. How odd is it that there is a guy named Jim Berry who converts cars to electric and plans an around the world electric motorcycle trip who lives in Tualatin, Oregon? Ref: http://www.tualatinlife.com/0909content/0909AroundTheWorld.html Any relationship or just coincidence?


That article was from 2010, so I guess he moved? In any case I'd love to see his conversions and wasn't trying to discourage him from sharing, while at the same time pointing out that a less energy dense chemistry with a higher price tag doesn't seem very enticing. Less range from a more costly pack doesn't appeal to me, maybe others feel differently. If you live in areas with extreme temps the SCIB may be beneficial, but the slightly greater DOD potential doesn't make up for the lower energy density. Hopefully no one builds a pack to barely make it home every day, regardless of the chemistry.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

major said:


> That's impressive. What charger do you use on the bike?


And what size pack that allows 275 miles on a single charge?


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## qryptiq (Dec 29, 2012)

Jim

Thanks for replying. I am working on a project that, if successful, can lead to a large number of conversions. You would be a good point of contact. If you are inclined, send me a method by which I can reach out to you (email, phone, etc).

I have only read brief information about scib batteries but am impressed with their potential.

Happy New Years to you as well.

Q


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

http://ethoselectricvehicles.com/contact%20us.html

http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showthread.php?p=207266#post207266


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## tomofreno (Mar 3, 2009)

JRP3 said:


> That article was from 2010, so I guess he moved?


 Says on his website that he did.




> In any case I'd love to see his conversions and wasn't trying to discourage him from sharing, while at the same time pointing out that a less energy dense chemistry with a higher price tag doesn't seem very enticing.


He seems to have a very short fuse, but you could have been a bit more tactful:


> energy density is crap...




He may have read that as "your stuff is crap".


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

He doesn't build the cells  but yes, point taken.


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## jimberry3 (May 11, 2009)

Coincidence major, purely coincidence. We are technically shut down except for our internet sales so that we can work on converting the bus to an RV, working on the motorcycles and the Camaro for the raffle. No, I don't have a short fuse, let me explain, I used to be all into quite a few forums and one day we had a neighborhood kid (4 years old) get run over by a riding lawnmower and lose his feet and suffer other injuries. I volunteered a dodge neon conversion for raffle and put it out on quite a few forums and got no response what so ever to help this child and by the way win a vehicle. Most people especially on the social sites just continued to bitch about whatever, post stuff about the wonders of bacon, etc. I got a little peeved about how we hear everyone can come together as one big family when something big happens but when a childs life is altered forever no one even posts a comment on how sad it is. So, yes I guess I am a bit short fused when it comes to forums and people being critical of this and that of which very little is of any importance in the long run. So my family and I have decided to take a very long vacation so we can show our children what it is like in other less fortunate (and more fortunate) parts of the world. I do so apologize for offending those people that do not deserve it.


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## tomofreno (Mar 3, 2009)

JRP3 said:


> And what size pack that allows 275 miles on a single charge?


 I was wondering that...if I assume a Goldwing uses about half the energy/mile as my little car (a bit less than half the weight, larger drag coeff, but much less than half the xsect area), and you cruise on back roads at 40 mph, then that would be around 80 - 90 Wh/mile. So 275 miles*90 Wh/mile*1.2 = 29.7 kWh. Lot to fit on a motorcycle with CALB energy density, let alone 48 Wh/kg:
http://www.toshiba.com/ind/product_display.jsp?id1=821 
Maybe they pull a trailer?


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## tomofreno (Mar 3, 2009)

It is surprising that the scib cells seem to have such low energy density. I thought I recalled it being much higher than that. An Altairnano 2008 brochure says their NanoSafe cells are about 90 Wh/kg (though 13.8V 88Ah pkg was 17 kg or about 70 Wh/kg) and considerably higher power density than other lithium-based cells (up to 4kW/kg, the main advantage they touted). Other advantages they touted were -50 C < charge temperature < 75 C, -60 C < discharge temp < 75 C, 15k full DoD cycle life to 85% original capacity, charge C rate of 50+, safe to over 200 C, 20 yr calender life.


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

tomofreno said:


> .... and considerably higher power density than other lithium-based cells (up to 4kW/kg, the main advantage they touted).


That's what I don't get. I look at http://www.toshiba.com/ind/product_display.jsp?id1=821 and it claims a 10 minute charge but then in the specs give an 8.4A maximum charge for a 4.0 Ah cell. That's about 30 minutes for a charge. What gives?

And it claims "High Output Performance Equivalent to Electric Double-Layer Capacitor". Yet specs show 8.0A maximum Discharging Current (Continuous) for the 4.0 Ah cell with 25A (Within 0.3 seconds). Heck, I discharged the EDLC to 75% DOD in 15 seconds, repeatedly, all day long.

Something sure does not add up about that Toshiba web page


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

Hi guys, 

As requested, a separate thread has been set up to handle the second topic that spun off from this one.

If you'd like to check it out or continue that discussion, you can find it here:

http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showthread.php?t=82460

Happy New Year!


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## evwannabeee (Nov 23, 2013)

Does anyone know where to purchase battery packs of the SCiB? Also any further and updated analysis on SCiB vs. std. lithium IPO4 batteries?


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Probably the most cost effective way would be to buy a used Mitsubishi imiev. You'd get a car, charger, motor, inverter, DC/DC, BMS, and a battery pack, probably for less money than the new cells alone.


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## rochesterricer (Jan 5, 2011)

I have since learned that only the Japan market iMiev has the SCIB cells.


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## circuit (Jan 16, 2012)

Anyone found where to buy some of these cells? Or whole pack to tear...


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## evpower (Aug 9, 2013)

I guess the main goal of the Toshiba "sales force" it to make sure the cells are not sold to anybody else, unless *the customer is a Toshiba approved partner or channel*. Those who buy the SCiB batteries sign documents forbiding them from reselling the cells or publicizing any information. 

I suppose the technology needs to come from the hands of Japanese into the hands of the Chinese, who are more business oriented and wish to make money, not "to sit on the products".

*Conclution: the SCiB is not readily available for ordinary people or companies to use them in independent solution*.


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