# Converting a large motorcycle: Honda ST1100



## StanSimmons (Sep 3, 2011)

I am in the initial planning stages of an EV conversion of a Honda ST1100 shaft drive, water cooled motorcycle (ICE curb weight ~700lbs) for commuting. I've looked at a lot of different motors and AC-15 or AC-20 look like they might be a good fit. I'm not sure yet what voltage I'll be running, but I'm shooting for somewhere between 72-120VDC and at least 10kWh. I have to get the ICE out so that I can measure and mock up pack and motor configurations. I'm sure I can find the ~75 liters of volume for a 10kWh pack of LiFePO4 prismatics, but I want more. 

I believe that the shaft drive ratio is somewhere around 1.8:1, I think I'll need a gear box fabricated rather than a direct connection to the shaft. I think that I may be able to mount the drive vertically and have a 90 degree gear box attached to the shaft. I think that configuration would leave the maximum space available for a battery pack. I would really appreciate some thoughts/ideas about this. What type of gears should I look at for this type of configuration? Would such a mounting position require thrust bearings to be installed in the motor?

I will not be using the bike for racing, likely will never have it over 100mph, and am looking for range rather than acceleration. For a fairly large commuter bike like this, is the AC-15 or 20 a good fit? I've also looked a the NetGain and Kostov 9" DC Series motors, but the weight on those seems excessive for a motorcycle. If I end up with a DC Series motor, I'll likely use a SolJr controller. Whatever direction I end up going in, I plan on using the existing water cooling system for the controller and charger.

What motor/controller combo would you guys recommend? Am I nuts thinking about the 90 degree gearbox?


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

On the right track but your final drive ratio is 2.83:1
http://www.pan-europe.utvinternet.ie/owners_manual/specifications.htm
so think again about another gear box, I think its limit but
90 degree drive is smart, Yabert did it on his DRZ.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y8obaiqmVsg
Your idea about vertical axis motor straight up the middle of the bike is good
but longitudinal down in the belly might be better and belt or chain up to 
the shaft
Your choice of cell is right for a commuter and you should easily get 10kWh in.
definitely keep the AC motor you will be on the regen all the time in the traffic. Kelly (165v) or Sevcon (96v) depending on you voltage choice.


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## StanSimmons (Sep 3, 2011)

RIPPERTON said:


> On the right track but your final drive ratio in 2.83:1
> http://www.pan-europe.utvinternet.ie/owners_manual/specifications.htm
> *so think again about another gear box, I think its limit*


I'm not sure what you mean here.


RIPPERTON said:


> but
> 90 degree drive is smart, Yabert did it on his DRZ.
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y8obaiqmVsg
> Your idea about vertical axis motor straight up the middle of the bike is good


Thanks for that link, I'll have to do some research on what Yabert did.


RIPPERTON said:


> but longitudinal down in the belly might be better and belt or chain up to
> the shaft


I've also been looking at the Goodyear PD belt system for a belly mount similar to the LithiumHawk but I think I may have more room vertically, I'll know more after I remove the ICE and do some measurements.


RIPPERTON said:


> Your choice of cell is right for a commuter and you should easily get 10kWh in.
> definitely keep the AC motor you will be on the regen all the time in the traffic. Kelly (165v) or Sevcon (96v) depending on you voltage choice.


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

StanSimmons said:


> I'm not sure what you mean here.


The 2.8:1 final reduction is almost short enough.
the rest you can do with the belt from motor to shaft.
maybe 3.5:1 overall


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## StanSimmons (Sep 3, 2011)

I was planning to measure the existing final gearing and calculate the gearbox to end up with a ratio somewhere between 2nd and 3rd gear. Hopefully the math will work out so that I can use off the shelf gears.

Does anybody have any comments about recommended motors?


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## Rational (Nov 26, 2011)

StanSimmons said:


> Does anybody have any comments about recommended motors?


Post spec's for your candidate motors.

Range rather than accel or high top speed says w-h/kg rather than w/kg for the batteries, see fig. 9 below
http://web.mit.edu/sloan-auto-lab/research/beforeh2/files/kromer_electric_powertrains.pdf


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## EV-propulsion.com (Jun 1, 2009)

For the ultimate in space for batteries and longer range, there is the Enertrac BLDC hub motor. A dual motor for heavier bikes shown here... use all the ICE space for batteries









mike
www.EV-propulsion.com


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## StanSimmons (Sep 3, 2011)

EV-propulsion.com said:


> For the ultimate in space for batteries and longer range, there is the Enertrac BLDC hub motor. A dual motor for heavier bikes shown here... use all the ICE space for batteries
> 
> mike
> www.EV-propulsion.com


Thanks for the tip, I hadn't considered a hub motor for this size bike.

Your site says: "The Hub motor is designed for motorcycles weighing less than 400 pounds with the batteries (dry weight, no rider)."

My bike is ~700 pounds curb, ~650 dry.


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## StanSimmons (Sep 3, 2011)

Rational said:


> Post spec's for your candidate motors.
> 
> Range rather than accel or high top speed says w-h/kg rather than w/kg for the batteries, see fig. 9 below
> http://web.mit.edu/sloan-auto-lab/research/beforeh2/files/kromer_electric_powertrains.pdf


I've been looking at the AC-15, AC-20, WarP9 and Kostov 9. I'm unsure of the specs on the AC-15/20... different sites list different specs. I'll have to look up the 9" motors.

I was really asking to see if I had overlooked a good motor candidate.


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## gor (Nov 25, 2009)

EV-propulsion.com said:


> For the ultimate in space for batteries and longer range, there is the Enertrac BLDC hub motor. A dual motor for heavier bikes shown here... use all the ICE space for batteries
> 
> 
> 
> ...


what the torque of this motor? peak power - on what rpm? what the amp ratings?
why this data not available? is there a problem?


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## EV-propulsion.com (Jun 1, 2009)

Stan-The single motor is 400lbs.
Gor-I will send you info

Mike


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## StanSimmons (Sep 3, 2011)

EV-propulsion.com said:


> Stan-The single motor is 400lbs.
> Gor-I will send you info
> 
> Mike


Please send me info on the double motor and an appropriate controller... including pricing and shipping to TX 75028.


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## rochesterricer (Jan 5, 2011)

StanSimmons said:


> Thanks for the tip, I hadn't considered a hub motor for this size bike.
> 
> Your site says: "The Hub motor is designed for motorcycles weighing less than 400 pounds with the batteries (dry weight, no rider)."
> 
> My bike is ~700 pounds curb, ~650 dry.


The numbers you quoted are for the single motor. The one pictured is the double motor.


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## markcycle (Nov 5, 2008)

rochesterricer said:


> The numbers you quoted are for the single motor. The one pictured is the double motor.


Dual 602 
10 RPM/volt
Continuous power at 900 RPM 20KW standard 35KW with forced air cooling
Peak power 60kw 









Dual 603 is also advailable
Dynojet data for the Catavolt bike with Dual 603 motors
Battery Current limit per motor about 180 amps









Latest project completed











Wheel sizes available
16 to 21 inch 3.5 to 10 inches wide

Every Dual motor system is a joint project between the builder and EnerTrac Corp. As such specification can be altered (within reason) to meet their needs. 
Cost can vary with wheel size and cutout design
2900 to 3500 USD for Two motors mounted to a forged aluminum wheel with a Disc Rotor and Caliper

Our Demo bike: 
All are welcome to test ride at our NY plant (if you have a motorcycle license) 












https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?....386245.644130981&type=3&l=7bb35015d3&theater

Here is Michael Thwaite President of the Tesla car club riding the bike
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=10150359146125982

I hope this answers some question for more questions
[email protected]


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## gor (Nov 25, 2009)

thank you, Mark - good info

and one more question (seems we missed it) - weight of the motor? (602/603 or dual)


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## markcycle (Nov 5, 2008)

gor said:


> thank you, Mark - good info
> 
> and one more question (seems we missed it) - weight of the motor? (602/603 or dual)


A dual motor setup with the wheel 75 to 95 pounds (34 to 43 Kg) depending on the wheel.


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## rochesterricer (Jan 5, 2011)

Thanks for all the info Mark. Just out of curiosity, how loud is the fan on the forced air cooling setup for the dual motor?


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## markcycle (Nov 5, 2008)

rochesterricer said:


> Thanks for all the info Mark. Just out of curiosity, how loud is the fan on the forced air cooling setup for the dual motor?


The blowers can be noisy, so we switch them on only when moving. When moving you can't hear them. There are many ways to control the blower based on temperature and throttle position. The simplest for us is to just base it on throttle position but if you are in a very hot climate you may need a temperture override such that even at zero throttle at high temps the blower runs.

I don't have a dba number and there are many blower options besides the ones we offer. Any blower that can maintain .5 to 1 PSI and 30 to 50 CFM will work.


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## rochesterricer (Jan 5, 2011)

Thank you


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## sparks (Nov 30, 2011)

Hi mark,
that's a nice motor, could you tell me what is the swingarm width on your motorcycle please? Did you make any mechanical change to it?
And what did you change on the Catavolt to make it works on 160V and go to 1600rpm?
Thanks


(sorry StanSimmons to stay off topic, maybe we could have a special topic for this dual motor?)


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## StanSimmons (Sep 3, 2011)

markcycle said:


> A dual motor setup with the wheel 75 to 95 pounds (34 to 43 Kg) depending on the wheel.





sparks said:


> Hi mark,
> that's a nice motor, could you tell me what is the swingarm width on your motorcycle please? Did you make any mechanical change to it?
> And what did you change on the Catavolt to make it works on 160V and go to 1600rpm?
> Thanks
> ...


I was going to ask about the width of the dual motor setup too. I'm also a little concerned about a 34Kg or larger unsprung weight, especially with all the potholes that are in Dallas, TX streets.


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## StanSimmons (Sep 3, 2011)

The bike is going from storage to the garage shortly after Christmas. I've arranged to use some space in the Dallas Makerspace building to do my build. A NTEAA member is also (re)building a Fiero in the same garage area. 

The first order of business will be to remove all of the fiberglass and the ICE. At that point I'll be able to mock up the battery and motor layouts and make some decisions on motor/controller/batteries.


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## RogerK (Dec 20, 2011)

Stan, Roger here (the Goldwing guy). About your drive motor idea, I question the vertical mount and 90 degree gearbox. First, I think you will lose some efficiency through a 90 degree box. It too would be heavy and maintenance. Also, comming out of the gearbox you really should have a flex coupling to your driveshaft (to account for disallignment), and that will take up some of the space you hoped to gain. Putting the motor in the belly I think works well. Keeps a low center of gravity. I measured a 32" tunnel on my Goldwing above the motor and below the seats where I can put batteries. I think about 10" deep. The shaft on the motor could couple either on the front or the rear. It doesn't really matter because I think a shaft is needed for the legnth of the motor (parellel to it) so that you can have a bearing both on the front and the rear. This is needed to give that shaft rigidity and allow a flex coupling at the end to the bikes drive shaft. When I get a design I will share. 

So you are looking at 10KWH. Wow, I was looking at just over 4. But if I can pack more in I would. Higher voltage would be nice. I need to go through my ratios, but if I got to 96 volts, I bet I'd get up to 80 or 90 mph. Let me know your thoughts on the drive. 

Oh, one final thing - I question the need to cool the controller. Seems to me air cool is sufficient, especially on a moving bike. Why run all those extra systems and pull power to do it? 

Roger


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## StanSimmons (Sep 3, 2011)

Roger,
You may be right about the gearbox losses, I haven't done the math on that yet. I had planned on keeping the factory U-joint at the motor end of the drive shaft to take care of minor flexing. I've also been looking at the Goodyear PD belt system for a belly mount similar to the LithiumHawk, that build uses a Goldwing rear end.

In Minnesota, I suspect air cooling would be fine on all but the hottest of summer days. In Texas, I want to have a little extra insurance against melting my controller in August. I was planning on putting the controller and charger inside the gas tank, where airflow would be minimal, even with the bottom of the tank removed. Since I already have the radiator, it seemed like liquid cooling wouldn't be too difficult or pricey. 

I have a Prius inverter cooling pump that moves a little more than 20 lpm while using about 2 amps at 13.8v. It cost me $89 on ebay. I'll probably end up getting a two-pass aluminum chill plate off of ebay for ~$100 and mounting the controller on one side and the charger on the other. If I end up with a DC system and get a Soliton Jr, I'll be talking to the evnetics guys about having them pre-drill mounting holes for the charger on the underside of the SolJr. Since the charger and controller will never be running simultaneously, a single cooling path should be plenty.


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## RogerK (Dec 20, 2011)

Yesterday I placed my motor into the general position on the Goldwing to get an idea of fit. So far, so good. It is in the belly, and it looks like it will work as expected with a shaft parellel to the motor running back to the U joint and rear drive shaft. I went through the ratios and it looks like it will be closer to 1:1.5. That actuallt helps me because it will allow more room for the pulleys. I need to come up with a tightener system, probably just and ideler pulley. So I am getting close to a design on this. I will probably put it all on CAD. I'll try to post a picture to show. (Right now the family is yelling to start Christmas!)

As for your cooling, you may be right about Texas heat especially if the controller is in confined space. Electronics shuld not get hotter than 50 C or about 135 F. 

Merry Christmas
Roger


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## CrazyAl (May 9, 2011)

RogerK said:


> Yesterday I placed my motor into the general position on the Goldwing to get an idea of fit. So far, so good. It is in the belly, and it looks like it will work as expected with a shaft parellel to the motor running back to the U joint and rear drive shaft.


What sort of motor did you end up getting?


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## RogerK (Dec 20, 2011)

I used the motor from my MG EV conversion. It is a warp 8 DC motor from Advanced DC Motors. The part number is: 203-06-4001. The motor can put out up to 100 ft lb or torque and 5000 rpm. It is oversized, but I'm using it because that is what I have. If I choose to go up to 96v, this bike would really scream. Tomorrow I'm going down to the junk yard to see if I can find a spline shaft that would fit into my U joint. Once I have that, can order all the other mechanical parts and build up my motor mount and drive system. It may move slow depending on my work load. I am self employed, and I've got a bunch comming up.


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## StanSimmons (Sep 3, 2011)

I've moved the bike from storage to the garage and started working on it. I've got the back half naked, and will be stripping the front over the holidays. 

Here are a couple of pix:


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## RogerK (Dec 20, 2011)

It took me 3 sessions to strip the Goldwing down to the frame. I think it would be a challenge if I was to put the ICE back in. 

I layed out my drive system in CAD and have it figured out except for a drive shaft with a spline to match my U joint coupling. Where can I find one? I went through a junk yard but all those shafts were too large diameter. I noticed some companies on line that will custom make a spline drive shaft. Looks like I'll have to go that route. The rest should be off the shelf from McMaster Carr. 

I hope to keep going, but I think my business will get busy aster the break. Sure would be nice to have it before summer. I'd sell my Kawasaki (Voyager) then to finance this conversion.


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## RogerK (Dec 20, 2011)

Stripped Goldwing


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## StanSimmons (Sep 3, 2011)

It is going to take me more than 3 sessions to strip this beast down. I've got an injured thumb on my right hand, so not having an opposable thumb is slowing me down a bit.

I've got the front half of the plastic off now. The next step will be getting the exhaust, intake and fuel systems off.


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## StanSimmons (Sep 3, 2011)

I've got a few nuts soaking in WD-40 before I can remove the exhaust, but I did get the air filter and gas tank out. That tank is a monster.


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## StanSimmons (Sep 3, 2011)

I'm exhausted.


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## frodus (Apr 12, 2008)

you mean d-exhausted? haha

Nice work!

Have you thought about a blog in addition? Thats how I documented my build (www.evfr.net).


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## StanSimmons (Sep 3, 2011)

frodus said:


> Have you thought about a blog in addition? Thats how I documented my build (www.evfr.net).


An excellent suggestion!

I've started http://ST1100ev.blogspot.com/ and will put more information in it, but will put milestones here as well.


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## StanSimmons (Sep 3, 2011)

Carburetors, coolant and radiator removed. Upper motor mounts removed, I'll need an impact wrench to remove the lower mounts.


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## gor (Nov 25, 2009)

StanSimmons said:


> An excellent suggestion!
> 
> I've started http://ST1100ev.blogspot.com/ and will put more information in it, but will put milestones here as well.


 thanks, S.
could you also post weights of parts-out?
what size and weight of flywheel and clutch? 
thank you


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## StanSimmons (Sep 3, 2011)

gor said:


> thanks, S.
> could you also post weights of parts-out?
> what size and weight of flywheel and clutch?
> thank you


I'll be weighing parts and posting about that later on.


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## StanSimmons (Sep 3, 2011)

I'm still working on getting the ICE out, but have made some measurements and the motors I was looking at aren't going to fit vertically... so a longitudinal mount with a belt system for a 2:1ish reduction is going to be the way I'm heading. (ETA: I haven't measured the shaft to wheel ratio yet, but it is supposed to be 2.83:1)

If anyone has any recommendations, hints, etc. on belt reduction systems, I would really appreciate them. Right now, I'm leaning towards the Goodyear PD belt drive system.

I've ended up deciding on the AC-20 motor system from HPEVS for this project.

I think it will be adequate for commuting and will give me a little regen and will add a simple reverse to help move this beast around in tight places. Most of all, it weighs about half of the DC motors I was looking at.


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## StanSimmons (Sep 3, 2011)

I'm still fighting that darn ICE, it lacks about 1/8th of an inch just dropping out on the floor!

My HPEVS AC-20 arrived from Electro Motive Force, as well as some other parts. More info can be found on my blog at http://st1100ev.blogspot.com/


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## frodus (Apr 12, 2008)

Glad the motor arrived ok, sorry about the tracking number issue.

Can't wait for some more pictures.


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## StanSimmons (Sep 3, 2011)

I finally got the gas motor out of this beast. 

There are two places that the AC-20 can go. Can you guys please let me know your thoughts on each of them?

The first picture shows the motor mounted low. The bottom of the motor would be at the same level where the exhaust pipes used to be. The face of the motor is on a fairly close plane to the face of the drive shaft. 

The second and third pictures show the motor mounted high, under the seat. The face of the motor is a few inches forward of the face of the drive shaft.


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## StanSimmons (Sep 3, 2011)

Here is a shot showing the relative size of the motor and batteries in the bike frame. The "tank" is actually just a plastic air cleaner cover. That entire area is open, I will probably be putting the Curtis 1238 and the battery charger under there.

The battery mockups are of the Sinopoly 60(b) cells, as you can see there is room for a lot of them. I'm going to also mock up some 100's to see how they fit.


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## RogerK (Dec 20, 2011)

Looks like I am a little ahead of you. I now have my motor and shaft system mounted. I ran it today with direct 48V with the back wheel up. It made more noise than I was comfortable with, so I need to look into my shafy system. I think the issues are ont he U joint. Maybe if I pack full of grease they will quiet down. I have posted a couple pictures, but I will also comment again on your project.


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## RogerK (Dec 20, 2011)

Just a few comments on your motor mounting. You will need to have a gear ratio to get the right speed and torque. I calculated a ratio I think (hope) works. It is 18:28, or 1:1.55. So you need room for this. You have to have a belt tightener method. For me, the aluminum plate you see rotates just enough for belt tightening. Secondly, you will need a rigid shaft connecting to the U joint on your bike. I'm not sure how you are planning to do that, but in my case it made sense to run it all to the front allowing room for the bearning to make the shaft rigid, then enough room for the timing pulleys. The coupling could be on the back so long as you have the rigid shaft and pulley ratio. One challenge for me was to find places to mount the everything. The frame is tubular and constantly bending. But I picked up on enough existing mounting holes to make it work. So you might consider something that looks like what I have.
Roger


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## StanSimmons (Sep 3, 2011)

Roger, 

I like your design a lot, and I may end up using a modified version of it with my motor mounted high under the seat. This would leave a shorter mainshaft than what you have, but should be enough to have two bearings on it for stability.

What pulleys and belt did you end up using, and where did you source it?


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## RogerK (Dec 20, 2011)

Call Grainger and they will walk you right through it. I purchased:
1 6GEK3
1 6GEL0
1 5UHZ4
1 5UHZ2
2 1A399
1 1DHR8
You will have to match your shaft size. In my case I had to get a custom spline shaft made. 
Good luck. I am heading to the shed tonight to see if I can get a smoother running drive system. Seemed sot of rough before.
Roger


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## otp57 (Feb 7, 2012)

StanSimmons said:


> I am in the initial planning stages of an EV conversion of a Honda ST1100 shaft drive, water cooled motorcycle (ICE curb weight ~700lbs) for commuting. I've looked at a lot of different motors and AC-15 or AC-20 look like they might be a good fit. I'm not sure yet what voltage I'll be running, but I'm shooting for somewhere between 72-120VDC and at least 10kWh. I have to get the ICE out so that I can measure and mock up pack and motor configurations. I'm sure I can find the ~75 liters of volume for a 10kWh pack of LiFePO4 prismatics, but I want more.
> 
> I believe that the shaft drive ratio is somewhere around 1.8:1, I think I'll need a gear box fabricated rather than a direct connection to the shaft. I think that I may be able to mount the drive vertically and have a 90 degree gear box attached to the shaft. I think that configuration would leave the maximum space available for a battery pack. I would really appreciate some thoughts/ideas about this. What type of gears should I look at for this type of configuration? Would such a mounting position require thrust bearings to be installed in the motor?
> 
> ...


I use a Mar 709 on a Goldwing and the bike runs fine.
I am using 48v but I could run it at 72v
The bike is on firstontop com click on the motorcycle frame.
Speed is around 45mph range is over 20 miles that is the longest I ran the bike.I feel amy 10hp or more motor will work good on a bike at speed up to 50mph or more.


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## RogerK (Dec 20, 2011)

I looked at that Electra Green. Thats quite a sproket. I hope you can find a replacement motor. Try some of the surplus places or Ebay. I would think you could find one cheap. How did the gear ratio work out? Looks like it's geared low enough. My Goldwing with the driveshaft reduction should be about 4.5:1 from the motor to the wheel. I hope that is enough. I can get a larger pulley if I have to. 

Today I measured my bike for LiFePo batteries. Looks like I can get 24, 70Ah batteries installed. This will give me well over 70v, and that should give me hyway speed. I hope the 70Ah will give me 50 miles. That would be an average of 100A while driving. I think thats reasonable for a bike. (100A x 75v = 7500W, or 10HP). Seems reasonable to propell a Goldwing if I'm not driving nuts with it.

I found a good site for all the remaining equipment I need. evolveelectric in Boulder CO. The batteries will cost me about $2200. Then I wil get the BSM system and a low grade charger. I think I have the rest. I plan to sell my Kawasaki Voyager (about $3K) and that should fund this project. 

Roger


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## RogerK (Dec 20, 2011)

I wanted to add that I now have my drive system running smooth and quiet. It turned out that the U joint was rubing deep inside the housing. I couldn't see it until I pulled the boot off. Just had to move my rear bearing a bit. All is fine with the drive. I put just 24V to it today and it ran faster than hell (back wheel off the ground).


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## StanSimmons (Sep 3, 2011)

Excellent news Roger!


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## otp57 (Feb 7, 2012)

RogerK said:


> I wanted to add that I now have my drive system running smooth and quiet. It turned out that the U joint was rubing deep inside the housing. I couldn't see it until I pulled the boot off. Just had to move my rear bearing a bit. All is fine with the drive. I put just 24V to it today and it ran faster than hell (back wheel off the ground).


Have you looked at the *AGNI B 95R motor* on a bike it is a fast motor.


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## RogerK (Dec 20, 2011)

I am using the motor that came out of my 66 MG conversion project. I saw no need to look around or buy a new one. This one will have more than enough power and speed. It is a Warp 8 by Advanced DC Motors.


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## frodus (Apr 12, 2008)

Roger, Can you start your own thread about your own conversion? It's a bit hard to follow what Stan is actually getting done on HIS bike....

Thanks


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## RogerK (Dec 20, 2011)

Travis, Stan has on several occasions asked me questions about my project. I see these forums as a community with great opportunities to learn from each other and share. Perhaps I did post more than I needed to on my project. I wanted to be helpful to Stan. I will only post on his thread when he has questions or if I can contribute in a relevent way to his project. 

I did start a thread on my project some time ago complete with pictures and specs. I couldn't find it. Did DIY delete it, or is is burried? I don't want to go through all that setup again at this time. But I will stay active in these forums to both learn and contribute.

Thanks,
Roger


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## frodus (Apr 12, 2008)

I didn't mean you weren't helpful. You have been. I just thought that you posting updates to your project is a little bit distracting to Stan's project. I've been following both and I figured it might be helpful to update with your progress in a thread dedicated to your project.... that's all.

I only saw a few posts started by you, maybe one of these is it?
http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/search.php?searchid=465814


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## StanSimmons (Sep 3, 2011)

One of the Dallas Makerspace guys helped me laser cut some heavy paper to make mockups of both 60Ah(B) and 100Ah Sinopoly cells. I've built 36 of the 60s and have the stuff to build 40 of the 100s. One of the NTEAA members is using Thundersky 100s, which are the same size, so I'm going to let him use the 100Ah mockups when I'm done with them.

I'll have pictures up tomorrow.


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## RogerK (Dec 20, 2011)

Wouldn't a cardboard fabrication work just as well? Or do you need to get highly accurate. I am building battery boxes now. I have 2, each holding 12 70aH cells.


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## StanSimmons (Sep 3, 2011)

I've finally updated my blog to info on the paper mockups. I couldn't get 100Ah cells to fit, so I am going to go with 60's. Below are some pictures.


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## StanSimmons (Sep 3, 2011)

I decided to use the gas tank to mount some of the electronics, and to keep the existing front mount point for the seat intact. 

The first step was to remove the fuel pump/filter and the float, then completely empty the gas residue in the tank. I then put a few cups of water and a little liquid soap in there and sloshed it around to make sure no gas was left behind... then to make really sure I put a heat gun on low and ran it into the tank for about 15 minutes to completely dry the tank. A Sawzall then made quick work of cutting the bottom half of the tank off.

I then took a grinder and cut the filler connector off and ground it flat to the top of the tank. This will let me mount the J1772 connector where the fuel inlet used to be. I needed the 1/2 inch of room so that the J1772 would drop low enough for the fuel door to be able to close.


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## frodus (Apr 12, 2008)

Nice place for it! Sweet looking J1772


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## StanSimmons (Sep 3, 2011)

My charger kit from EMW came in today. I was really excited to see it arrive... 

until I opened it and discovered that they had accidentally sent the wrong version. I was expecting the water cooled version and as you can see it came with the air cooled heatsink.  It is also missing at least one part, I'll have to pull the BOM off their website to see what all is missing.

I've got an email out to Valery, and I'm confident that he will get this straightened out quickly.


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## StanSimmons (Sep 3, 2011)

I bought a ST1100 transmission off of ebay for less that I could get just the transmission output shaft by itself. It took about 30 minutes to get it all apart and remove the shaft. This leaves my original motor and transmission intact, which should make it easier to sell. Below is the pile of leftover gears.

Now I need to take some measurements of the shaft and get it machined for some bearings and a pulley. I did a really crude mockup of the plate I need to build to mount the face of the motor and front bearings for the jack shaft. This will give me a better idea of what diameter pulleys I can use. The frame member is going to be the limiting factor there.

I put a piece of tape on the shaft, and on the tire, and spun the shaft while watching the wheel spin. Ripperton was right, I measured a 2.83:1 ratio for the rear gears and a 6'9" circumference on the tire.


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## RogerK (Dec 20, 2011)

Nice to see your progress Stan. I now have my battery management system, cable, chrger and everything but the 70 AH batterues, They are due in soon. The issue I have is finding time. My bussiness got very busy. But with the nice weather I am trying to get this done and on the road. I will post an update soon.
Roger


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## RogerK (Dec 20, 2011)

How's the progress Stan? I am on the home stretch with my project. The batteries finally came in. All parts are painted and polished. Came out decently but not at the profesional level. I started assembly this weekend. I'll post on my site so you can see the progress.


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## Whitehawk (Apr 12, 2012)

EV-propulsion.com said:


> Stan-The single motor is 400lbs.
> Gor-I will send you info
> 
> Mike


Holy unsprung weight...that is like 60% vehicle mass, just in the rear tire??


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## frodus (Apr 12, 2008)

I think he was talking total vehicle weight for a single motor setup on a motorcycle.

Mark said this later:


markcycle said:


> A dual motor setup with the wheel 75 to 95 pounds (34 to 43 Kg) depending on the wheel.


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## Whitehawk (Apr 12, 2012)

frodus said:


> I think he was talking total vehicle weight for a single motor setup on a motorcycle.
> 
> Mark said this later:


Okay, it was just 7 pages of posts, my eyes didn't pick it up. Protean Electric has an in wheel motor, claims 590 ft-lb torque about the same weight at 68lbs. That is still a problem for a road vehicle, probably okay for trucks. But that is all talk, anyone with experience deploying the extra unsprung mass on their bike?


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## markcycle (Nov 5, 2008)

Whitehawk said:


> Okay, it was just 7 pages of posts, my eyes didn't pick it up. Protean Electric has an in wheel motor, claims 590 ft-lb torque about the same weight at 68lbs. That is still a problem for a road vehicle, probably okay for trucks. But that is all talk, anyone with experience deploying the extra unsprung mass on their bike?


As Far as using a dual motor system no one has more experience and success with it than Catavolt









Here is what Ripperton had to say about the EnerTrac Dual motor *
*http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showpost.php?p=299626&postcount=612

Here is my test bike nothing but fun to ride








the weight is definitely manageable, it took me a bit to get the shocks set up performance wise 0 to 60 in under 7 seconds she is a blast in traffic, I can weave through traffic with the best of the Ninja bikes. the Total bike weight is 440 pounds with 42 in series 40AH GBS cells


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## Whitehawk (Apr 12, 2012)

Thanks for the info. Mark! 

More wondering I do, not being a pessimist, just pointing out opportunity. I ride a CBR1000F, it has about 130bhp...which is about 100kW. 100kW electric motorcycle?! See... opportunity awaits =)


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

Nice bike Mark, swingarm looks a bit long though
is this the wheel you are sending to Jon ? 190 tire ?


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## markcycle (Nov 5, 2008)

RIPPERTON said:


> Nice bike Mark, swingarm looks a bit long though
> is this the wheel you are sending to Jon ? 190 tire ?


Thanks Daniel
The wheel base is extended about 5 inches over stock it give the bike that street fighter look.
No this isn't the wheel we're sending, we're keeping it a 17 X 5.5 inch wheel for Jon, the Wheel on the above bike is 
18 X 6. 
The wheel for Catavolt is in the hands of FedEx, making it's way over.


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## frodus (Apr 12, 2008)

Whitehawk said:


> Thanks for the info. Mark!
> 
> More wondering I do, not being a pessimist, just pointing out opportunity. I ride a CBR1000F, it has about 130bhp...which is about 100kW. 100kW electric motorcycle?! See... opportunity awaits =)


The problem there isn't really the motor.... it's having batteries that can discharge 100kw.


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## StanSimmons (Sep 3, 2011)

Sorry for the delay in posting on this project... I've been sidetracked by some other pressing issues.

The only progress I have to report is on the battery front. I've just ordered 48 of the CA60FI cells from Keegan at CALIB. The total price, including shipping, fees, busbars, etc. was well under $1.50/Ah... This compared very favorably to the pricing (w/ s&h, customs, etc) that I was getting from Sinopoly, and I was able to pay with a credit card.

The spec sheet he sent showed 245mm x 115mm x 44mm and 2kg for the new 60Ah cell. That is quite an improvement over the SE60AHA at 217mm x 142mm x 46mm and 2.5kg. If my math is correct, that is 12.5% smaller and 20% lighter. The specs put the new CA60FI cell squarely between the Sinopoly 60(a) and 60(b) cells for density and weight.

He said that he is expecting a large shipment of that model cell at the end of July. I should be getting my cells delivered to the Dallas Makerspace sometime the week of August 6. I'll post pics and measurements when they have arrived.

Some of you may have noticed that I've ordered 48 cells when my pack will only have 36 cells in it. This is for two reasons. Firstly, I will be testing each cell and will put the highest capacity cells in my pack. Secondly, the remaining cells will be used for a couple of other LiFePO4 projects. One of which will be a portable power source for emergency first responders.


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## RogerK (Dec 20, 2011)

Sounds good Stan. I received my Calb 70Ah a month or so ago. They were slightly different size and I ended up having to rework the battrey boxes. I thought I was about done, then my controller didn't work. bummer. Everything looked right but didn't go. So I did all this testing and then a spark - then fault lights. super bummer. Sent back to China. Out of warantee, but they may fix it. meanwhile I just got in a smaller replacement. Almost installed. But I also zapped my BMS. I had it all setup and communicating to my pc. It was really cool. I could see all 24 of my batteries, the voltage, temperature, state of charge, etc. I would recommend the lithimate lite BMS. Nice product. I had one output wire that touched a high voltage terminal and zap - fried the channel. They should protect those hi V terminals better. Anyway, just got that back today. So finally, I think this weekend it will all come together. It is going slow, like yours. Work and other things have to come first. But I've missed 1/2 a season, so I do hope it is on the road very soon.
Roger


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## RogerK (Dec 20, 2011)

My battery pack. There are 6 more in the back carrier. 24 70aH total.


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## otp57 (Feb 7, 2012)

EV-propulsion.com said:


> For the ultimate in space for batteries and longer range, there is the Enertrac BLDC hub motor. A dual motor for heavier bikes shown here... use all the ICE space for batteries
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Will that work on a goldwing 1200?


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## markcycle (Nov 5, 2008)

otp57 said:


> Will that work on a goldwing 1200?


Is the goldwing shaft drive? If so then the Hub motor will not work without designing and building a new swingarm for the bike, not really practical to do.


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## otp57 (Feb 7, 2012)

markcycle said:


> Is the goldwing shaft drive? If so then the Hub motor will not work without designing and building a new swingarm for the bike, not really practical to do.


 the Goldwing 1200 has a spracket on the rear wheel.


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## StanSimmons (Sep 3, 2011)

My CA60FI cells from CALIB arrived yesterday afternoon. They came UPS Freight and arrived in two small crates on a single pallet. 

I uncrated them, counted and verified barcodes with the pick list. They were extremely well protected with lots of Styrofoam sheet packing. Unfortunately the busbars, bolts and washers didn't make it in the crates. I've sent an email to Keegan to have him remedy that oversight.

According to the CALB paperwork they all tested 65Ah to 67Ah. Two were 65Ah, 25 were 66Ah and 21 were 67Ah. The "Open Circuit Voltage" listed was 3.304v or 3.305v for 45 cells with two more at 3.306v and one at 3.309v. 

I consolidated them down to one crate with no packing material for storage, and will be testing them with a Revolectrix PowerLab6 to verify the capacity and charge/discharge curves.


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## StanSimmons (Sep 3, 2011)

I've tested about one third of my cells, and all of them so far are in excess of 60Ah capacity. The cells come from CALB at about 50% charge, the PowerLab 6 takes about 6 hours to charge from half to full, discharge and recharge.

Below are some graphs that the PowerLab spits out, the raw data is also available, so I plan to look at the stats when I'm done testing the entire set.

In the Pack Capacity chart you can see that the PowerLab puts in a little over 30Ahs, rests for 15 minutes, removes a little over 62Ahs, waits for 15 minutes, then puts back in a little over 63Ahs.

In the Cell Voltage chart you can see the steep "knee" as the cell gets full, the plateau as the charger changes from constant current to constant voltage mode at 3.60v, the drop as the surface charge dissipates during the 15 minute cool down. Then we see the sharp drop as a 30A load is applied and the slow drop until the steep knee as the cell approaches empty, and a quick recovery as the load is removed at 2.80v for another 15 minute cool down period. In the final phase, we see a steep curve as charging starts at 30A constant current, then a long fairly flat charging curve and another steep knee as the cell gets full again, followed by the constant voltage plateau to finish.

The CALB paperwork lists this cells internal resistance as 0.44 mOhm. The PowerLab measured it at 0.5 mOhm. The other cells have been similarly off, and similarly flat on the graph. I'm not sure what that means, if anything.


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## StanSimmons (Sep 3, 2011)

One of the guys at the Dallas Makerspace has a Tesla Roadster so he decided that he needs an EVSE at DMS as well as at home. It uses an EVSE controller from the Open EVSE Project, a pair of solid state relays, terminal strips, 12v psu, panel box, and a J1772 cable/connector. He did an Instructable on it.

Below is a shot of it mounted next to the warehouse door. It normally has the lid to the box in place for safety.


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## StanSimmons (Sep 3, 2011)

I'm still testing cells with the Revolectrix, but I'm also in the process of bottom balancing the cells. To help speed that chore along, I built a budget bottom balancer with a LightObject 5740 volt meter ($38) and a big honkin' power resistor. Details on building and programming it can be found on my build blog. 

I temporarily attached my JLD404 to read how many amps I was pulling out of the cell. On my first attempt, I ganged up 10 0.1 Ohm 22w resistors in a 5P2S configuration and was eating up a bit over 40A at 3.24v... I was also heating up my puny wires.

The second attempt used a 0.1 Ohm 200W power resistor from Digikey ($28). It drew a more modest 22.7A at 3.27v and wasn't heating the larger wires... I smartened up and added 30A 12v fuse with the heavier power clips.


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## pgt400 (Jul 12, 2008)

Did you ever finish this conversion?





StanSimmons said:


> I'm still testing cells with the Revolectrix, but I'm also in the process of bottom balancing the cells. To help speed that chore along, I built a budget bottom balancer with a LightObject 5740 volt meter ($38) and a big honkin' power resistor. Details on building and programming it can be found on my build blog.
> 
> I temporarily attached my JLD404 to read how many amps I was pulling out of the cell. On my first attempt, I ganged up 10 0.1 Ohm 22w resistors in a 5P2S configuration and was eating up a bit over 40A at 3.24v... I was also heating up my puny wires.
> 
> The second attempt used a 0.1 Ohm 200W power resistor from Digikey ($28). It drew a more modest 22.7A at 3.27v and wasn't heating the larger wires... I smartened up and added 30A 12v fuse with the heavier power clips.


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## diver653 (Sep 20, 2011)

RIPPERTON said:


> The 2.8:1 final reduction is almost short enough. the rest you can do with the belt from motor to shaft.
> maybe 3.5:1 overall


Why wouldn't you go directly to the shaft rather than adding belts and pulleys?


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

diver653 said:


> Why wouldn't you go directly to the shaft rather than adding belts and pulleys?


Because the shaft is offset to the side of the bike.
You need the motor in the center of the bike


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## diver653 (Sep 20, 2011)

RIPPERTON said:


> Because the shaft is offset to the side of the bike.
> You need the motor in the center of the bike


suppose I set the batteries on the left to balance out the wieght of the motor--wouldn't that work and still be able to go direct to the driveshaft?


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

diver653 said:


> suppose I set the batteries on the left to balance out the wieght of the motor--wouldn't that work and still be able to go direct to the driveshaft?


Whoa there. now your talking too hard basket...


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## diver653 (Sep 20, 2011)

RIPPERTON said:


> Whoa there. now your talking too hard basket...


So my big question now is. I,ve noticed that people are running high amp batteries on controllers that seem to be less. What batteries can I use with a 48 volt. 350 amp controller?


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