# EVan-Quadricycle



## Dave Koller (Nov 15, 2008)

*Re: I want to build a trike!*

Well!! So happy to see you back   !!!


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

*Re: I want to build a trike!*

Hip, hip, hooray!!! 

I'm glad me being inspired by you, can help inspire you!  The Ice Cream Truck is going to be designed and built by my next round of crazy "kids", but supervised by me. I might make this thread and watching you _mandatory reading_.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

*Re: I want to build a trike!*

Thank you both.

It is good to be back on the projects. It has been too long since I was last able to think about doing more then one easy thing at a time.

I still have to cut down an axle for the tractor too, but that also includes redesigning the whole transmission for it. 
Maybe the old, slightly out of balance 12" motor might get a look in there. More torque available, less transmission needed I think!


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

*Re: I want to build a trike!*

I took some time out from other stuff today and reassembled the MGB front axle assembly. It all looks good so far. I have ignored the seals and bushes and so on as they will be changed at a later date.

The steering rack currently points towards the back of the car and I will need to rotate it so that it points forward. That should be straight forward if I cut off the rack mounts and make new ones that are in the right orientation.

The standard bolt pattern to mount the cross-member to the chassis rails are angled so it is narrower at the front then the rear, I am pondering changing those to make them parallel. That will make it easier to build the chassis to fit.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

*EVan-Tricycle*

Photos! 

This is the standard configuration on full lock.









The steering rack mounts like this (seen from the other side).









If I rotate the rack over so the column points forward I get this.









The rack mounts will then be above the rack, probably under the chassis legs (seen from the other side).


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

*Re: I want to build a trike!*



Woodsmith said:


> Photos!...


I was just about to ask... 

Looks like that will work nicely.  Those frame mounts are pretty sturdy. You could go with straight frame rails and just extend a mount off the side of the rail for the rear mount. One dead center, one in a little outrigger mount.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

*Re: I want to build a trike!*

That sounds an easy solution, Todd.

I was working on how to use the standard MGB tapered bolts that usually mount the cross-member.









I guess no reason not to use other bolts instead. Or even to weld the cross-member to the chassis.


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## John (Sep 11, 2007)

*Re: I want to build a trike!*

Hi Woodsmith,
Are you planning to widen the cross member? Reversing the cross member and rack position without rejigging the steering geometry will give you toe in on turn instead of toe out. Sort of a reverse Ackerman steering geometry. Either the rack needs to be narrower or the cross member wider to accommodate the changes that are needed to the steering arms to correct the steering geometry.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

*Re: I want to build a trike!*



John said:


> Hi Woodsmith,
> Are you planning to widen the cross member? Reversing the cross member and rack position without rejigging the steering geometry will give you toe in on turn instead of toe out. Sort of a reverse Ackerman steering geometry. Either the rack needs to be narrower or the cross member wider to accommodate the changes that are needed to the steering arms to correct the steering geometry.


I don't think he's reversing the crossmember - he'll just be sitting on top of it, rather than behind it, so he's rotating the rack "on its mounts", so to speak, to get the steering wheel ahead of the wheels. There shouldn't be any changes in Ackerman, or any of the geometry.

Did I get it right Woodster?


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

*Re: I want to build a trike!*



toddshotrods said:


> I don't think he's reversing the crossmember - he'll just be sitting on top of it, rather than behind it, so he's rotating the rack "on its mounts", so to speak, to get the steering wheel ahead of the wheels. There shouldn't be any changes in Ackerman, or any of the geometry.
> 
> Did I get it right Woodster?


Spot on.

Instead of sitting 2' behind the front wheels I am moving the seating to on top of the wheels. The requires the steering column to be about 3-4' ahead of the axle. So by rotating the rack the column points forward where I will mate it to a right angle gear box to then direct it upwards towards the steering wheel.

It will all become clear when I can mock up the seating and steering wheel.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

*Re: I want to build a trike!*

This is the noticeboard sketch I made one night when I couldn't sleep.









It shows the steering column brought forwards, the battery pack low on the floor between the axles, an enclosed load area above the pack, and a flat pickup bed over the top. There will be a tow hitch at the rear.

This sketch is assuming the reverse trike layout using the same motor and swing arm I had made up before, and the same bridging structure over the top of the rear wheel to the tow hitch.

If I find an MGB axle then I will go with a conventional four wheeler layout at the rear.


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

*Re: I want to build a trike!*

Hi Woody

How much space do you need? - why not build it a la Lotus 7 and use a trailer when required?

I think it would make a more "fun" car


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

*Re: I want to build a trike!*



Duncan said:


> Hi Woody
> 
> How much space do you need? - why not build it a la Lotus 7 and use a trailer when required?
> 
> I think it would make a more "fun" car


Fun is often different things to different people, I have an electric tractor that is huge fun and 'burns rubber'.

Seriously though, it isn't so much about the 'fun' aspect, more the local work vehicle for when I am actively going out to work again. The construction and joinery jobs I am willing to do will be within 10 miles away and mostly via urban roads.

Ideally I would want to be able to carry a few 8'x4' boards and timbers up to 12' long, along with two tool boxes and some power tools. If possible I would want a 1 ton payload but would be happy with around 1000-1500lbs. I also want to be able to tow a trailer as well, for extra capacity. (I think I will need at least a couple of gears in the transmission.)

I will be mostly using it for fetching and carrying and so the cargo aspect is paramount. I can cycle the non cargo journeys, or use one of my cycle trailers for small cargo trips, and the diesel car for longer range when needed.

However, the people at Arch's work also think I have a love affair going on with Beryl, their Bradshaw FB2! 
They may not be that far from the truth...

I have thought about the Axiam Mega van but it is really too light and too slow, I think it was designed to come in under quadricycle regulations whereas I am aiming for IVA and full motor vehicle status. The dealer is only a couple of miles away from me though so I keep an eye on second hand vehicles.


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## Beemer (Jun 2, 2011)

*Re: I want to build a trike!*

*Woody, you basically redrawn your true love!*

The requirements of EU laws for the needs to be more car-like with reverse trikes. I'm now looking into the Quasar style motorcycle route because its the best format for electric. I'd consider a leaning trike retro fit from this.

China loves trikes including reverse. Woodys wishes are leaning towards the milk float/tuk-tuk + trailer. Why not? Low performance, fun and a full machine to convert for several hundreds of £'s. Or at least a format that is easily made using a simple chassis and wood. The windscreen requirements in law are fraught with issues so I'd go for something that has it sorted.


Look here for cheap tuk-tuk & ATV prices(1)
And here too (2)

Want one of these super cheap Chinese items?  The firm that CLAIMS to make the kit wants to charge $28k. Yours for 1/10 the price as bought from China.







There's a Brit trike company playing the same trick too.

Designs using sketchup are getting popular.








*Here*

And finally, a humungous selection of trikes for modding behind this link.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

*Re: I want to build a trike!*



Beemer said:


> *Woody, you basically redrawn your true love!*


Shhhh, Arch reads this forum you know!




Beemer said:


> Woodys wishes are leaning towards the milk float/tuk-tuk + trailer. Why not? Low performance, fun and a full machine to convert for several hundreds of £'s. Or at least a format that is easily made using a simple chassis and wood. The windscreen requirements in law are fraught with issues so I'd go for something that has it sorted.


That's it really, simple and dirt cheap, but with the styling in the execution.

The windscreen is the place to start though. I am looking at various options and the best thing for size and shape seems to be rear screens.
A Land Rover Discovery rear glass would be about the size and shape, with a useful deeper section in front of the driver. Maybe even get hold of a complete door as it has the wiper motor and surround. The bottom half could be cut off and changed to form the cab front and include headlights.









The glass would also include the heater element for demisting but I am not sure if it would be allowed due to the element being visible.


Otherwise and MGB tailgate screen, without heater, would also be a good size.









Ideally I would like to find a rear screen that is cheap, and common, and comes with and without heater. That way I can try and get it IVA accepted with the heater, but if not I can get the plain one and add a demister blower.

It has to be the starting point though, along with Land Rover Series3 door tops to make the side windows simple.









I do still have the all singing, all dancing, fully electric everything doors from the MR2!
The best thing about them is the auto electric folding electric mirrors and self closing windows when the door is locked.
Don't know if my pack would have enough power to run them though, never mind them being half my payload weight capacity.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

*Re: I want to build a trike!*



Woodsmith said:


> ...the best thing for size and shape seems to be rear screens...


I don't know your laws but I don't think a rear "windscreen" would be legal in front, in the US. The front is made with laminated plain glass, while the rear is usually a single piece of tempered safety glass. The reasons it would be frowned upon in front are the thousands of tiny glass fragments that would _explode_ in your face, upon impact. Even though the glass actually fractures into shards, the laminated glass is proven to take one heckuva hit and keep them mostly in place.

I've shattered tempered glass by simply putting too much pressure on it in the cold, trying to get a side window back on track; but have personally seen deep head impressions in laminated windshields, that most of the glass fragments were still intact.


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## Beemer (Jun 2, 2011)

*Re: I want to build a trike!*

Sadly, Todd is correct.
It has to be laminated glass up front. 
However, kite marked or CE flat laminate is available to buy and cut to shape. A pair of them, AKA split screen Volkswagon bus, top hinged would not detract from what you want...

Oh yea, You HAVE to do the bodywork whatever the shape in lacquered wood or be damned! 








http://home.clara.net/peterfrost/tryaneii.html
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/wales/813811.stm
Note the top speed is 101mph... Simply because its a slippery shape.

This link below is the ugly bit... EU LAW. 
http://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/LexUriServ.do?uri=OJ:L:2010:230:0119:0252:EN:PDF


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

*Re: I want to build a trike!*

Ahh well, we used to have toughened glass, back in the day (feels old now!)

Still, the split screen idea is good. I could use Land Rover Series screens (E and kite marked), swapped left to right so that the slightly angled edges make the windscreen into a slight chevron shape.

Alternatively 2CV windscreen might be small enough.

I would prefer curved glass as it just looks nicer.


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## Beemer (Jun 2, 2011)

*Re: I want to build a trike!*

I agree about the windscreen matey.
There are plenty of local firms who can make your hearts desire but it might cost. Maybe think of a small car off a scrappie? 

http://www.specialistglass.co.uk/index.html

http://www.guardianglass.co.uk/industry/contact

https://www.topclasscarpentry.com/c... Metric Casement Windows - Laminated Glass/3/

http://www.cylex-uk.co.uk/manchester/laminated glass.html

I'd love the idea of a single top hinged flat plate screen though. Would be brill on those hot days.


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## Arch (Aug 21, 2011)

*Re: I want to build a trike!*



Woodsmith said:


> Shhhh, Arch reads this forum you know!



I know my place....


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

*Re: I want to build a trike!*



Arch said:


> I know my place....


Now I'm in trouble....


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

*Re: I want to build a trike!*



Beemer said:


> I agree about the windscreen matey.
> There are plenty of local firms who can make your hearts desire but it might cost. Maybe think of a small car off a scrappie?
> 
> http://www.specialistglass.co.uk/index.html
> ...


It would have to be a car windscreen. That would make it easy to replace and it would have all the kite marks, E marks, and type approval that would be required. Ordinary laminated, or tempered, glass isn't be allowed any more AFAIK from the kitcar forums.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

*Re: I want to build a trike!*

I found this!


















It is a Trivan.
http://blog.hemmings.com/index.php/2011/02/01/the-trivan-re-revisited/

Not very pretty though.


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## Beemer (Jun 2, 2011)

*Re: I want to build a trike!*



Arch said:


> I know my place....


I always thought you were kinky 

Your place as a lady is aesthetics and to give a handy measure of encouragement. That is soo important. 

I hope you guys know you'll need seat belts and stuff for the size and weight of this trike. Is why I'm now going the m'bike route because it is (don't have to believe me) structurally simpler! 

http://www.trikeshop.co.uk/trike_law.htm

Off topic: If you are in the UK seeking a grant to plug your vehicle at home.
https://www.gov.uk/government/news/new-measures-announced-to-support-the-uptake-of-plug-in-vehicles
w00t!


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## epyon (Mar 20, 2008)

*EVan-Tricycle*

Damm dude , I was reading your thread on your trike that I was thinking about too . Mainly because They will not let me build a Indy car style car . But I can build anything on three or two wheels . I was reading it and was impressed by your metal skills and then the medical things happened to you and you are still finishing the trike . I just wanted to say , great job and I have to get both of my cars running now .... an stop being a bitch , an get them on the road now . I'll stop dragging my feet . No AC-76 , no paint shop , no looking for off the wall parts that stop me from finishing . Thanks .


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

*Re: I want to build a trike!*

Thanks Epyon. 
It is good to be feeling able to get on with a project again. I just have all those other outstanding jobs to get on with too.

I will also have to be earning an income too (can't wait to be able to do that properly again) hence the change in the trike plan. It will need to be a project that earns its keep and not just a fun play thing.


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## Arch (Aug 21, 2011)

*Re: I want to build a trike!*



Woodsmith said:


> I found this!
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Sweeeeeeeeeeeeet!

Not pretty is good, I feel less threatened... 

No, seriously, it's good to see Woody tinkering again, even if some of the technicalities go over my head a bit.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

*Re: I want to build a trike!*



Arch said:


> Sweeeeeeeeeeeeet!...


Agree 100% 





Arch said:


> ...it's good to see Woody tinkering again...


Agree 1000% - this place isn't the same without Woody's _magic_!


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

*Re: I want to build a trike!*



Arch said:


> Sweeeeeeeeeeeeet!
> 
> Not pretty is good, I feel less threatened...





toddshotrods said:


> Agree 100%





Arch said:


> No, seriously, it's good to see Woody tinkering again, even if some of the technicalities go over my head a bit.





toddshotrods said:


> Agree 1000% - this place isn't the same without Woody's _magic_!



Thank you both.

Though I am busy with 'other stuff' I did get to sneak down into the workshop today to see about parts to make up the right angle gearbox for the steering column.
I found a couple of the diff gears from the tractor's exploded diff. The side and spider gear will give a 14/22 ratio taking the MGB steering from 3 turns lock to lock to 4.7 turns lock to lock. That will make the steering lighter and slower turning given the all the weight (I know I need to loose some) over the front wheels.



I am having fun with drive gear ratios too.

If I use the original motor and swing arm chain drive set up (17t and 43t) I had then I get direct drive with 29.4mph per 1000rpm with the big 25" rear wheel.

If I move the motor to the front and have a propshaft drive to the BMW final drive bevel box, and then the chain to the rear wheel I get 10.1mph per 1000rpm with the same chain sprockets.

If I then change the small sprocket for one of, say, 25t then I get 14.9mph per 1000rpm. More useful then either the two above.

If I use a MGB rear axle with the 21" front wheel size then I get 16.0mph per 1000rpm.

I can't use the smaller wheels on the swing arm as I don't think they fit over the brake assembly.

I still don't know how fast I can risk spinning that 11" motor though. 3000rpm? 4000rpm?


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## Dave Koller (Nov 15, 2008)

*Re: I want to build a trike!*

Ha Ha and I am just sneaking along - so glad you are tinkering once again! I agree with Todd and Arch


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## grayballs (Aug 27, 2008)

*Re: I want to build a trike!*

I'm thinkin' C-Cab,,, like Henry used to build


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

*Re: I want to build a trike!*



grayballs said:


> I'm thinkin' C-Cab,,, like Henry used to build


Like this?










I'm thinking more Steyr Haflinger.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

*Re: I want to build a trike!*

I was playing with the idea of having a backbone chassis, housing the motor and battery pack, so that I could adapt the rear to take any sort of cargo. Demountable flat bed and side pods sprung to mind.

However, it would appear that someone has built an ICE powered version of the layout I am thinking of.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

*Re: I want to build a trike!*



Woodsmith said:


> ...However, it would appear that someone has built an ICE powered version of the layout I am thinking of...


I have never been too crazy about reverse trikes, but that thing is soooo freakin cool!!  The motorcycle should look really dumb stuffed on the back of a truck cab but it doesn't - it looks almost normal/right somehow?!?! 

Keep it up and I'm going to steal the Inhaler Project's delivery van!


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

*Re: I want to build a trike!*

Delivery trucks are cool, in their own way. 

I'm now thinking of keeping the 80+mph gearing, just cos I can!


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

*Re: I want to build a trike!*

This afternoon, after bricking up my folk's bathroom window (don't ask), I decided to clear and tidy the workshop.

I can just about get enough room in there to lay out the trike again and get an idea of the scale and layout I'd like.

There is a good possibility of having a 24" wide 12" high backbone chassis, at the back of which the 11" motor will hang and the swing arm will pivot. The chassis is then only around 60" long from the front axle to the motor mounting point and will be the battery space. That would comfortably fit 12 used Optima Red Tops (initially for 72V but later for 144V), an accessory battery and the controller.

Extending the 'flatbed' over the rear wheel will give me 8' of load bed from the back of the cabin if I can push the cabin as far forward as possible. 7' is easier but I can always allow a bit of load overhang if it came to it.


The main things I need to sort out now is a front windscreen (or a suitable cabin from a small vehicle) and a means of getting the steeing column in the right place without resorting to cutting and welding. That will determine the front layout.


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## Arch (Aug 21, 2011)

*Re: I want to build a trike!*



Woodsmith said:


> This afternoon, after bricking up my folk's bathroom window (don't ask)...


Oh go on, do tell...



Woody and I have been doing some renovations this week, and it's one of those jobs where as soon as you finish one bit , another task reveals itself . I think tinkering in the workshop is therapy for him!


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

*Re: I want to build a trike!*

I have been in the workshop measuring and mocking up with bits of metal and wood to see how things 'sit'.

I then drew a measured sketch of the side elevation to see if it all works out. So far so good. I can get the rear 'body' to 2350mm x 650mm at 750mm off the ground. There is also space for the covered load area above the batteries and space for side 'panniers' for extra capacity if needed.

The cab seems to lend itself nicely to using a pair of Land Rover Series 3 doors, with a cut away for the wheel arch. I can either narrow a Land Rover truck cab down to 1100mm wide, or I can build the rest of the cab in wood. The windscreen is still an unknown so the cab will be made to fit what I can get.

The steering is still a bit complicated but maybe I can use three UJs to get the column where I want it. I will have the lower part of the column as a divider between my feet, but I think I can cope with that. I am still working on the 'right foot for GO, left foot for STOP' pedal arrangement.

The motor will cantilever off the end of the chassis on the four mounting bolts and it will be geared for 88mph at 3000rpm.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

*Re: I want to build a trike!*

Me like!  My vote is for wood...


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## Dave Koller (Nov 15, 2008)

*Re: I want to build a trike!*

Wood!


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

*Re: I want to build a trike!*

Haha! I guess I will have to build with wood then.




A quick 'guestimate' suggests that with new Optima batteries I would only get around 10 miles at 50%DoD. That might do.

I also managed to get a copy of the MSVA Inspection document. As a tricycle it can weigh up to 1000kg without batteries and have up to 1500kg payload.
That gives me much more scope to work with then a quadricycle (3 or 4 wheels) for both weight, and power if I have read it correctly.

The only snag is the front wire wheels. The document states that any centre nut must not protrude further then 30mm from the wheel. Mine are at about 60mm. I might have to see if I can find another pair to match the wider rear wire wheel, which is acceptable for inspection.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

*Re: I want to build a trike!*

Having added some figures to my spread sheet it is suggesting that at 40mph the trike will only be looking at around 150wh/m giving a comfortable 12mile range at 72V or 24mile range at 144V with 50Ah lead acid.

I think it would be worth planning for 144V to keep the current draw low and to allow for the range to be overly optimistic!



In the meantime I bought a cheap steering bevel box to get the steering column in the right place.








It is from a Leyland National bus and turned out a bit bigger then I expected and also reverses the steering! It is big enough to run a large (very large) winch or even as part of the transmission in the drive train!
The splines are 7/8" x 48 and the output is a propshaft sliding joint that is nearly as big as that on a Land Rover.
I guess I will use it some where on the tractor....

Anyway, I am now looking, more modestly, at a VW T25 steering bevel box on Ebay but they cost a bit more.








http://forum.earlybay.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=21827&start=120


Aside from this I've not done much more having spent the time clearing out my workshop of Dad's 'junk' and redesigning the layout to allow me to build cycle trailers. I have also put together a design and workshop studio for Arch.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

*Re: I want to build a trike!*

I have been piling up bits of wood and metal to figure the seating and floor layout. I think I have it cracked and have taken measurements.


I then went out to pick up the VW T25 steering bevel box. The seller had a Staffie puppy that was so excited to have a visitor that it 'leaked' over my left boot while hopping about for attention!

Anyway, the bevel box is perfect, and cheap, and I got the flex joints for both sides of it too.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

*Re: I want to build a trike!*

People often pester me about how long my projects take to become reality, but sometimes a great idea needs time to age and mature, and it just gets better with time.

Such is the case with your trike project Woody - this is so uniquely "Woody", so sweet, and so much fun to see happening! 





Woodsmith said:


> ...The seller had a Staffie puppy that was so excited to have a visitor that it 'leaked' over my left boot while hopping about for attention!...


Maybe he was Christening the builder of the ship, in a sign of approval! 

I love that V-dub gearbox - makes me want to build something just to use one, lol!


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

*EVan-Tricycle*

The puppy was really cute and so bouncy!

Comparing the VW box to the Leyland box there is a huge saving in weight! I can pick up the VW box between two fingers but I need both hands with the Leyland box. 

The flex joints will make it easier to find matching parts to spline to the MG rack and whatever steering column I find.
I thought about using the MR2 column, as I have it, but that weighs more then the battery pack will!


Having measured the 'cockpit' layout dimensions I thought I would compare it to my car. Almost exactly the same fit! I guess I like the fit and feel of my car.


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## Dave Koller (Nov 15, 2008)

*Re: I want to build a trike!*



toddshotrods said:


> Maybe he was Christening the builder of the ship, in a sign of approval!


YEP you are right Todd!!!


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

*Re: I want to build a trike!*

After the makeshift seat fell off the bit of wood on the tool box and the upside down wobbly jack and hit me on the head while I was measuring I decided to make things a bit more stable.

I have the front axle cross-member on full bump and the wheels on full left lock. I can fit in a bench seat of 32" wide.
I figured that if the wheel arches and the seat base was made as one formed shape then the seat cushion can flow up the inner curve of the arch on each side like a bolster. A center bolster will then keep one seated.

The seat board locates for the seat floor, without the upholstery. Won't need much I don't think, about 3" seat foam compressed down might be ok. The seat back board is the position for the compressed foam so I have to add about 4" behind to locate the back wall of the cabin.
Arch may be able to get a photo this weekend of me seated in it to show steering wheel and pedal location.

It makes the cabin 4' long front to rear with 3' overhang ahead of the axle centre line, about the same as my Skoda Octavia so not excessive.

Overall height to the roof of the cabin, at full bump, seems to be around 4'6".


The steering rack shaft will need to run under the anti roll bar and the cabin floor before kicking up slightly via a UJ to the VW bevel box set at, or just into, floor level between my heel positions for the pedals. I am looking at right foot 'Go' and left foot 'Stop'.

I think rather then bolting the chassis to the cross-member I will weld it all on, at least the part ahead of the axle, as the bolt holes are not on any level and are designed to follow the angled and curved legs on the MGB frame.

When I start welding I will need to decide on which point to stop before I am unable to get the chassis back out of the basement workshop!

Anyway, I think the way I am approaching it, I can build up the front chassis and cross-member using the set up location boards for reference and then construct the cabin on the chassis in situ as I go. The whole lot can then be nearly complete before the rear chassis is built and maybe bolted on prior to fully welding outside on the driveway.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

*Re: I want to build a trike!*



Woodsmith said:


> After the makeshift seat fell off the bit of wood on the tool box and the upside down wobbly jack and hit me on the head...


 Sounds like something I would do! 


I love it Woody! That first pic really brings it to life!


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## Dave Koller (Nov 15, 2008)

*Re: I want to build a trike!*

Nice Wood... Not the bump on the head - the pics... Oh yes I turned around the other day and ran into a board sticking out skinned my big nose ..

We just gotta watch it guys lol !


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

*Re: I want to build a trike!*


Cheers guys, I do have a graze on the side of my cheek where the board knocked my glasses off.

Anyway, Arch is here and so she took a photo.


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## Dave Koller (Nov 15, 2008)

*Re: I want to build a trike!*

Regular Monty Pythonish ..


----------



## Arch (Aug 21, 2011)

*Re: I want to build a trike!*



Woodsmith said:


> After the makeshift seat fell off the bit of wood on the tool box and the upside down wobbly jack and hit me on the head while I was measuring I decided to make things a bit more stable.


<shakes head disapprovingly> 



> I can fit in a bench seat of 32" wide.


I read that as f it said "I can just fit into a bench seat of 32" wide", and thought, really, you're not that fat! Then I re-read, and got it. Funny thing, language...

Woody has realised that due to my short stature, if I want to drive it, he may have to complicate the driving position with some adjustability. Either that, or he'll extend my legs....


----------



## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

*Re: I want to build a trike!*



Arch said:


> Woody has realised that due to my short stature, if I want to drive it, he may have to complicate the driving position with some adjustability. Either that, or he'll extend my legs....


Extending your legs might be the easier option, I'd just need to weld extensions on somewhere....


----------



## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

*Re: I want to build a trike!*



Arch said:


> ...Woody has realised that due to my short stature, if I want to drive it, he may have to complicate the driving position with some adjustability. Either that, or he'll extend my legs....





Woodsmith said:


> Extending your legs might be the easier option, I'd just need to weld extensions on somewhere....


Too funny!  Building from scratch is quite an adventure, and gives one new respect for all the things mass manufacturers have to encompass in a single vehicle for broad acceptance/good sales. The Inhaler Project's Ice Cream Truck project is being designed with a "live" 1/4-scale model, and one of the first steps I had the Team do was create 1/4-scale "stick" people, that are 6' and 5'6" tall - to make sure a range of people could actually fit in, and drive, the thing. 

This came from seeing Schism materialize. I designed it around the Model T body - scaling an entire vehicle to match the dimensions of the _original_ bucket body. The result is a vehicle that I can barely fit in, at 5'4"/125lbs!!!  I was having so much fun with pure design that I completely forgot about people, including myself!


----------



## Arch (Aug 21, 2011)

*Re: I want to build a trike!*



Woodsmith said:


> Extending your legs might be the easier option, I'd just need to weld extensions on somewhere....


<thinks about running away. realises would be able to run faster with extended legs...>


----------



## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

*Re: I want to build a trike!*



Woodsmith said:


> ...In the meantime I bought a cheap steering bevel box to get the steering column in the right place...
> 
> ...and also reverses the steering!...


I think this bit information has transformed and freed the front of my car - see my thread this evening for details... 

One of the reasons I share so much info, and enjoy reading about and seeing what others are doing, is you never know what will help someone else. Thanks Woodster!


----------



## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

*Re: I want to build a trike!*



toddshotrods said:


> I think this bit information has transformed and freed the front of my car - see my thread this evening for details...
> 
> One of the reasons I share so much info, and enjoy reading about and seeing what others are doing, is you never know what will help someone else. Thanks Woodster!


You want reverse steering on your car!

I guess it would make an interesting anti-theft device!


----------



## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

*Re: I want to build a trike!*



Woodsmith said:


> You want reverse steering on your car!
> 
> I guess it would make an interesting anti-theft device!


 I want to reverse the steering that I plan to reverse.


----------



## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

*Re: I want to build a trike!*

I have been thinking about gear ratios and motor speed.

Currently I am working on the basis that my big 11" motor will be safe up to 3000rpm and so I figured I would limit it there.
The current chain drive setup gives an 88mph road speed at 3000rpm but as I am going to be spending much more time at less then 40mph then the original design spec required I wanted to look at changing the gearing.
I can't have a bigger sprocket on the wheel, nor a smaller one on the motor so I thought I'd try the Lada T'box for size.

It gives good ratios (1.2:1 and 2.135:1) as a two speed box but has to run backwards, and takes up a lot of space. Not sure that is such a good idea.

Maybe I have to take inspiration from Todd and run a jackshaft!


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

*Re: I want to build a trike!*



Woodsmith said:


> ...Maybe I have to take inspiration from Todd and run a jackshaft!


I love the idea on Schism (have yet to get beyond the mock-up).  It totally transformed the front of the car, making the whole drivetrain come together, and making it look badazz. I was kicking against the pricks up to that point, as nothing really worked, functionally or aesthetically.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

*Re: I want to build a trike!*

Only thing with a jackshaft is covering up more chain and also possibly noise. May also rethink toothed belts.

It was kinda cool for a moment thinking of two speeds so motorway speeds for a mile or so might have been a possibility.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

*Re: I want to build a trike!*

I have been picturing the jackshaft as a long shaft taking the drive from one end of the motor to the other end, resulting in the motor DE facing to the other side of the trike to the final drive chain.
It would require two sprockets, splined or keyed to a shaft that is able to handle the torque. this could be a little costly and require more accurate engineering.


However, I could also get two pilot bore sprockets.








I can then line them up on a setting up shaft and bolt them together using the boss for chain clearance. The bore can then be machined out for a pair of bearings and then the set up fitted to a fixed shaft at the DE of the motor.
Easier and simpler and the motor faces the same way.

I'll do a drawing another time as I am not at home.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

*Re: I want to build a trike!*



Woodsmith said:


> I have been picturing the jackshaft as a long shaft taking the drive from one end of the motor to the other end, resulting in the motor DE facing to the other side of the trike to the final drive chain.
> It would require two sprockets, splined or keyed to a shaft that is able to handle the torque. this could be a little costly and require more accurate engineering.
> 
> 
> ...


That makes a lot of sense, if I'm "seeing" correctly. Should make for a nice, neat, little setup.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

*Re: I want to build a trike!*

If it makes sense then you must be seeing it correctly, hopefully the same way I am seeing it!


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

*EVan-Tricycle*

I had one of those 'couldn't sleep at night' thoughts about the gearing.

The compound sprockets is the simplest solution, but in the wrong place. It gets in the way of having the motor out on its own and uncluttered.

The solution is to incorporate the compound sprockets into the swing arm. 
If I use 10 and 20 tooth sprockets bolted together and placed with bearings on a sliding axle midway along the swing arm then adjusting the eccentric tensioner in the wheel hub will tension both runs of chain.

One chain guard would cover the chain run and render it mostly inconspicuous.
It would also be a good point at which to adjust gearing to suit once the trike is running.

I will need to rebuild the swing arm to fit it in properly but I think I can do a better job of the swing arm at the same time.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

*Re: I want to build a trike!*



Woodsmith said:


> I had one of those 'couldn't sleep at night' thoughts about the gearing.
> 
> The compound sprockets is the simplest solution, but in the wrong place. It gets in the way of having the motor out on its own and uncluttered.
> 
> ...


Awesome Woody!


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

*Re: I want to build a trike!*

I think I am going to have to get the sprockets and some more scrap metal to start fabricating soon, see if it works.


----------



## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

*Re: I want to build a trike!*

I just want to throw an idea out to those with more know how then I have as I am just pondering the more elegant looking options....

With very little work I can make clearance on the swing arm to fit a 57t sprocket on the hub. I will need to machine the sprocket to fit the hub mounting.
I could then have a 12t sprocket on the motor which will give me a 4.75:1 ratio, close enough to the 5:1 I'd like.

However....

The sprocket on my motor is currently a 17t on a taper lock clamped around a hollow sleeve that used to be a gear pinion.









As a reminder, the motor is really like a giant golf buggy motor and doesn't have a bearing on the DE of the armature. The shaft is just splined and locates inside the gear pinion which is supported by the bearing in the new DE cap. The gear teeth were machined off leaving a 40mm sleeve with internal splines.

















Anyway, If I was to buy a 12t pilot bore sprocket, bore it out to a shrink fit on the 40mm splined sleeve, shrink it on and then weld it I would have a 12t drive sprocket on the motor.

Would that be a wise move, to weld the sprocket on, or am I setting myself up for a headache later on?

If it is acceptable could I MIG or stick weld it or should I find someone to TIG weld it on?

Cheers.


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## MalcolmB (Jun 10, 2008)

*Re: I want to build a trike!*

Hi Woody

I reckon it should be OK if you machine a good shrink fit. Would it be too much extra work to turn down the end of the shaft to remove those grooves and maximise surface contact?

The main thing in welding something like this, as you probably know, is to try and keep the cooling rate as slow as possible to avoid cracking, since you'll be welding a relatively low-carbon sprocket to a higher carbon shaft. I would preheat the shaft to 150–200C. TIG would be better than MIG as it has a higher heat input. MIG welds freeze faster.


----------



## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

*Re: I want to build a trike!*

Thanks Malcolm.

I'm not sure if I can turn away the grooves, they are as hard as the gear teeth were IIRC. I removed the gear by grinding and then by turning, losing a couple of cutter tips in the process.

If I can turn it it would also provide a good square shoulder to set the sprocket against.
Maybe grinding away the hard surface first would be a good way to prepare for turning.

I may have to opt for someone else to carry out the whole job to sufficient accuracy and strength, given I don't have TIG. 
I would need to be careful as the sprocket would need to go at the correct end of the sleeve and I've not had much luck with farming out 'one chance only' machining work.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

*Re: I want to build a trike!*

Ditto what Malcom said, and I would add that, depending on how much you intend to use the trike, you have to keep wear in mind with a 12T sprocket. It will probably wear the chain more, but it's something to keep in mind as you can't just pop a new sprocket on it.

I would go for it personally. Replacement shouldn't be needed very often, and it should be too difficult to cut the TIG welds on a lathe.


----------



## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

*Re: I want to build a trike!*

Yes, that was one of my concerns. I figured that I could always turn off the worn sprocket and replace as required. Also by the time I have worn out the first one I might also have a better solution.

I guess I should try to find someone who can TIG it for me.

I will also need to find someone to machine the rear sprocket to match the hub mounting. It is too big for my lathe, and will need the bolt holes accurately indexed.

All this is getting spendy, not helped by wanting the sprockets to be Duplex for the stronger chain.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

*Re: I want to build a trike!*

I am going out, this morning, to have a look at this little truck I found on Ebay. It is so starkly ugly that it is sweet!
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/W-E-Elect...3120898?pt=Automobiles_UK&hash=item19daaf8f02









This is mainly due to a crisis of confidence while looking at the mounting cost of scratch building and getting the trike legal.

I figured that I could probably upgrade this to be road legal, and a bit more potent, for less overall cost. I could replace both axles with MGB items and have direct drive to the rear diff, then add lights and other legal stuff prior to an inspection and road registration.
Either that or I look for a Rascal/Supercarry/Hijet type van/pickup and convert it with only the change of fuel issue to deal with.

The trike isn't dead though. I slept last night, first 'longer then an hour' sleep for nearly two weeks and have a plan....

More later if I get a chance to do a mock up...


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

*Re: I want to build a trike!*

OK, the 'li'l red EV' was cute, but also rusty, flaky pastry rusty in some places and spotless in others.
Not sure if the three part windscreen, with the silicone glue line just in the line of sight, would be street legal either.


Anyway....

Have a look at this inside shot of the BMW K100 gearbox.
It has an input shaft, two main shafts with dog clutches on both, and a selector cam stack.

Will it run upside down? I am thinking of swapping the breather and the sump plug and inverting the box. The photos are deliberately ambiguous to solicit opinion as to whether I can get away with it or not.



Right the plan.

I have been bogged down with the idea of using the 11" motor, hanging proud off the back of the chassis. That gives me lots of headaches over getting all my gear reduction in the swing arm to take advantage of the torque for direct drive within the right speed range.

So, I had another 'clean sheet of paper' think about it (no, I'm still not going front wheel drive yet).

If I use the BMW final drive (2.91:1) at the end of the chassis to carry a sprocket to give a 1:1 chain drive, and then drive it using the BMW gearbox (upside down to get the propeller shaft on the right side), and then drive the gearbox with the 9" motor from the tractor, I can get the whole package inside a 15" wide, 12" high, backbone chassis with the batteries hung on either side.

This setup gives me five speeds (not all will be useful) with 17, 25.9, 33.3, 40.8, and 47.6mph at 3000rpm. The 9" motor may well be safe at higher rpm and so I could reduce the top speed either by ignoring 5th gear or by changing the sprocket on the final drive unit.
Given the smaller motor and lower torque I can probably get away with a single strand chain and not have to spend lots on duplex sprockets and machining.
_<watches tumble weed roll by>_


I can then use the 11" motor to drive the Land Rover axle, via the Lada transfer box, on the tractor, just for fun!


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

*Re: I want to build a trike!*



Woodsmith said:


> ...Have a look at this inside shot of the BMW K100 gearbox.
> It has an input shaft, two main shafts with dog clutches on both, and a selector cam stack.
> 
> Will it run upside down? I am thinking of swapping the breather and the sump plug and inverting the box. The photos are deliberately ambiguous to solicit opinion as to whether I can get away with it or not....


Looks like it will still pick up fluid and sling it around fine. Plus, you're only going to be spinning it (input) at 3K - I think it would live.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

*Re: I want to build a trike!*



toddshotrods said:


> Looks like it will still pick up fluid and sling it around fine. Plus, you're only going to be spinning it (input) at 3K - I think it would live.


Good, I thought that given one mainshaft was in oil and the other wasn't meant that it pretty much didn't care one way or the other. It might even go sideways up with both main shafts in the oil.

I reassembled the gearbox, after looking for the little detent ball that fell inside, and mocked up the 'sort of' layout in the photo.

The motor can go up front on the axle crossmember, under the seats. I can then mount the mechanical reverse switch and controller close to it and boxed in away from the weather.
A short prop shaft will go to the gearbox and then a longer prop shaft to the final drive.
Given the final drive has a four bolt mounting I can just bolt it onto a plate at the end of the chassis so it is the only part of the trans, up to that point, that is exposed.

The backbone of the chassis can then be a closed structure with just cooling to the motor, if it needs it, and water cooling to the controller.

The gearbox can also have all the extraneous bits of casting removed to save space. A third of it is just stuff to support the clutch lever and the swing arm.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

*Re: I want to build a trike!*

I did a bit of measuring and did a quick measured sketch.

I figured I can just about fit all the motor and trans inside a 12" square back bone. That lead me to drawing in 12" square section battery boxes on each side with cut outs for the swing arm bearings and the gear selector. the tail end of the battery boxes may be tapered down towards the swing arm to 'tie' them in a bit.

I figured that I could run on 72V if my top speed is that low and I have gears to play with and the battery boxes will have plenty of room for decent 6v or 12v cells and lots of insulation. I am hoping they will 'hang' on the outside of the chassis like truck fuel tanks.

The chassis will be divided along the length to isolate the long propshaft and to give room for the service battery, charger, controller, etc.

I am wondering if I can make it out of large radius folded sheet steel with internal bracing and bulkheads. Maybe a complete 'closed tank look' with access hatches for the bits inside.
Otherwise four lengths of round tube with sheet welded in the sides and base.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

*Re: I want to build a trike!*



Woodsmith said:


> I did a bit of measuring and did a quick measured sketch.
> 
> I figured I can just about fit all the motor and trans inside a 12" square back bone. That lead me to drawing in 12" square section battery boxes on each side with cut outs for the swing arm bearings and the gear selector. the tail end of the battery boxes may be tapered down towards the swing arm to 'tie' them in a bit.
> 
> ...


Now, I'm getting confused between our trike projects! I first looked at the sketch and thought where is he going to sit?! Then, I remembered where the cab is, and realized I was trying to sit you in my kart seat! 

Regarding the PM, I think Arch's advise is sound, and this truck plan is super cool - it just _feels_ like "Woody". PackRat actually wouldn't be a trike, it would still be a delivery if I didn't have two other projects to balance... 

I like the folded sheet idea - isn't that how the low-cost cars are built?


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

*Re: I want to build a trike!*

Looking at Todd's trike, and how the frame rails extend past the outsides of the rear wheel axles, I decided to have a look at mine to see how that would look. Not going to do it as I would not be able to remove the wheel and it would completely alter the single sided swing arm look.

In the process it occurred to me that now I don't have a big motor at the back the swing arm pivots don't need to be so far apart. In my earlier sketch, above, I placed the joints on either side of the chassis with the FD unit in between set to the left.
However, without the motor it also means I can move both pivots to the right of the FD and bring them closer together reducing the width of the swing arm.

It will increase the forces on the pivots due to lateral loading on the rear wheel. I am using M20 rose joints, they are big! The chassis in that area can be 'big' too!

Seriously though. If the pivot is strong enough like that then it does simplify the build and layout .


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

*Re: I want to build a trike!*



Woodsmith said:


> Looking at Todd's trike, and how the frame rails extend past the outsides of the rear wheel axles, I decided to have a look at mine to see how that would look. Not going to do it as I would not be able to remove the wheel and it would completely alter the single sided swing arm look.
> 
> In the process it occurred to me that now I don't have a big motor at the back the swing arm pivots don't need to be so far apart. In my earlier sketch, above, I placed the joints on either side of the chassis with the FD unit in between set to the left.
> However, without the motor it also means I can move both pivots to the right of the FD and bring them closer together reducing the width of the swing arm.
> ...


I forgot to reply, but left the tab open to remind myself.  I like it - neat and tidy. It definitely looks "designed", like it was meant to be/always was that way.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

*Re: I want to build a trike!*



toddshotrods said:


> I forgot to reply, but left the tab open to remind myself.  I like it - neat and tidy. It definitely looks "designed", like it was meant to be/always was that way.


(One of these days I am going to mess up. I keep clicking on the Admin's Edit button instead of the Quote button!)


Anyway, Another option on the pivot is to not use the two M20 rose joints but to use a Land Rover stub axle bolted to the centre line of the chassis frame. The swing arm can then have a pair of Land Rover wheel bearings fitted into a machined tubular hub. That will allow proper taper rollers and grease seals to be used and also any free play can be taken up.

Fitting and removing the swing arm, for maintenance, will be easy too.

I reckon a Land Rover hub will be plenty strong enough to support the lateral loads from the swing arm.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

*Re: I want to build a trike!*



Woodsmith said:


> ...Anyway, Another option on the pivot is to not use the two M20 rose joints but to use a Land Rover stub axle bolted to the centre line of the chassis frame. The swing arm can then have a pair of Land Rover wheel bearings fitted into a machined tubular hub. That will allow proper taper rollers and grease seals to be used and also any free play can be taken up.
> 
> Fitting and removing the swing arm, for maintenance, will be easy too.
> 
> I reckon a Land Rover hub will be plenty strong enough to support the lateral loads from the swing arm.


I like that better. I love the big "rose joints" as you call them , but I think you'll get a much more rigid swingarm with the tapered bearings. Nothing beats a solid, tight, feeling vehicle going down the road.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

*Re: I want to build a trike!*

Cheers Todd

Also, I happen to have two Land Rover Discovery front stub axles left over from the Tractor!

The bearings are still looking good, so I can probably reuse them, especially as they are not spinning.


Item: LM603049/11 bearing
Type: Single-row tapered roller bearing
Size: 1-25/32" x 3-1/16" x 25/32" inch
Quantity: One Bearing
Basic load rating (Cr): 57.1 KN
Basic load rating (C0r): 73.5 KN
Grease Lubrication: 4900 RPM
Oil Lubrication: 6500 RPM

I just need to find something to make the 'hub' from.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

*Re: I want to build a trike!*

Anyone remember the Africar?
I re-read the book last night, concentrating on the plywood construction.

So today I decided to make a model of my trike cab to see how many 8' x 4' sheets of plywood I would need, and if the little animated sketch in my mind would work.

I used an old sheet of 'slightly too damaged to use' artists mount card that I had. It was about the right thickness to simulate 18mm birch plywood at 1/10 scale.

I first cut out six pieces to simulate sheets of ply to see if I could get all my cuts in as few sheets as possible.

I did a quick sketch of the sort of 'Steyr Puch Halflinger' type cab to make using flat sheets easier.

The windscreen is still undecided but I decided to model with some sort of generic flat screen that would fit with the Land Rover Series 3 door tops I want to use.
A Citroen 2CV screen would be about the right size, if I can find one.

I also used a bit of Lego Technic to make a basic chassis to support the cab and the wheels in the right configuration.

Anyway, lets see how many images I can upload now.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

*EVan-Tricycle*

More photos:
Only used three sheets and there is not a lot left from those!

The only cheat is that I curved the roof, which would really require some thinner ply instead of the 18mm. That won't matter too much in the grand scheme.


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## Arch (Aug 21, 2011)

*Re: I want to build a trike!*

That's brilliant! If only we could just scale ourselves down to drive it!

You must be able to make a picture out of those bits left over...


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

*Re: I want to build a trike!*

I can reduce the plywood down to 2 sheets of 18mm and one sheet of 6mm as I used the scale sheets to include the door tops and the seats.

Realistically I would probably still use 3 sheets of 18mm as I would be including gussets and dash board.
More sheets would be use in creating the rear body tool panniers and the battery box.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

*Re: I want to build a trike!*

Very nice Woody!  Even though I knew I was looking at a scaled model, I still _saw_ a real truck when I opened page 71! 

The simple curved roof panel adds so much depth to the cab - nice work.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

*Re: I want to build a trike!*

Cheers Arch and Todd.

I think a 2CV screen is about 1100mm wide, need to find one to check, and I am working on 1000mm wide at the moment. It won't affect the amount of sheets used though.

I still have to sort out some of the little internal details, like how the slope of the wheel arch is covered up inside the cab and whether I have the steering bevel box above or below the floor.

I am figuring on the pedals coming up through the floor with a push rod going from the brake pedal back to a master cylinder under the seat. That will let me have the seating fixed and still allow both me and Arch to be able to drive it.


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## Arch (Aug 21, 2011)

*Re: I want to build a trike!*



Woodsmith said:


> and still allow both me and Arch to be able to drive it.


Although not at the same time, as that might lead to arguments....


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## sunworksco (Sep 8, 2008)

*Re: I want to build a trike!*

Inrekor panels are perfect for this body.


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## Dave Koller (Nov 15, 2008)

*Re: I want to build a trike!*

L like it Wood!!!


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

*Re: I want to build a trike!*



sunworksco said:


> Inrekor panels are perfect for this body.


Yebbut, can I afford them?

I can't find a price for the stuff but have seen it before in the Porsche kit car. http://www.theengineer.co.uk/in-dep...-flat-pack-production-process/1007188.article


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

*Re: I want to build a trike!*

I did a bit more Lego modeling to look at the overall scale of the trike truck.
The rear body will be a backbone carrying the batteries and the motor. The triangular sides are pannier tool boxes. In theory that should only be half the depth of the rear body. The upper half will be a pick up bed.

I want to be able to carry 8' x 4' sheet material and so that will sit over the pick up bed and the rear wheel and be secured with plug in frame extensions that it can be strapped to .

A few views and also showing it carrying 3 sheets of 8' x 4' 'plywood'.


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## sunworksco (Sep 8, 2008)

*Re: I want to build a trike!*

Inrekor panels are made in the UK. You are fortunate because they do not make them in the USA.


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## tylerwatts (Feb 9, 2012)

Have to say I am loving the Lego Woody! I have a large stash of it from childhood that I refuse to give up, and the techniq Lego seems to be making a come back. Certainly more of it in UK Toys r Us these days, takes some for me to resist buying more of it! Have to remember I'm a grown man now...


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

*Re: I want to build a trike!*



tylerwatts said:


> Have to say I am loving the Lego Woody! I have a large stash of it from childhood that I refuse to give up, and the techniq Lego seems to be making a come back. Certainly more of it in UK Toys r Us these days, takes some for me to resist buying more of it! Have to remember I'm a grown man now...


My childhood Lego 'vanished' when I was around 10 years old.
The couple of thousand pounds worth I have now was all bought as a grown man, mid thirties onwards.

I have a couple of AEC Matadors, one detailed and one fully powered 4x4 with winches, and a Scammell Contractor recovery fully powered 6x6 with winches, crane boom and powered shear legs.
I also have a model of Arch's work truck, a Bradshaw FB2 and also a model of my original trike hotrod idea.
These are all large scale models but I also have a tiny tractor, Land Rover SWB and Scammell Explorer.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

*Re: I want to build a trike!*

I picked up a potential windscreen today.
It is an MGB tailgate glass, clear and no heater element, no damage either. Only cost £12.

It is a nice shape and a good size, about 970mm x 600mm.

It is going to be toughened glass but I am working on the basis the MSVA is only asking for it to have British Standards safety glass marks so it should be ok.

I will now need to make a 1/10th scale copy of it to test fit on the model.


----------



## sunworksco (Sep 8, 2008)

*Re: I want to build a trike!*

There is a method for cutting the glass, if needed.
Just duct tape the area to be cut and sandblast the cutline.
I know a fellow that converted a Jaguar series III XKE coupe to a short wheelbase roadster and this is how he lowered the height of his windshield.


----------



## Beemer (Jun 2, 2011)

*Re: I want to build a trike!*

Front windshield glass has to be laminated, surely!


----------



## sunworksco (Sep 8, 2008)

*Re: I want to build a trike!*

You can sandblast cut laminated glass but not tempered side windows.


----------



## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

*Re: I want to build a trike!*



Beemer said:


> Front windshield glass has to be laminated, surely!


The MSVA only specifies the British Standards (and others) for 'Safety Glass'. I will double check but I can't find the wording of the BS documents and so I bought the glass on the basis of reading the standard printed on it to see if it complies. I will need to clean the grime off it to see if it is readable.

I did ask on a Kit Car forum and rear windows were suggested and also a link to a this windscreen which is toughened.

Anyway, it was cheap and I have to start from somewhere.
If I can't use it in the front then it will be fine as a rear window or sunroof so it was worth the investment.

I looked up the requirement. The MSVA accepts a number of standards for windscreens and one of them is BS 857. I didn't buy the document but from the abstract on the website toughened and Laminated screens are included in the standard...

BS 857 as accepted by the MSVA.



> Abstract:
> 
> Requirements, tests for flat and curved toughened (heat treated or chemically toughened) and laminated safety glass, thickness 2 mm to 13 mm. Optical requirements for windscreens. Sampling, uniformity and fragmentation requirements for toughened glass. Sampling, light stability, humidity resistance, fracture and adhesion, special impact requirements for laminated glass.


----------



## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

*Re: EVan-Tricycle*

11 pages in a day! That's gotta be a record!


----------



## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

*Re: EVan-Tricycle*



toddshotrods said:


> 11 pages in a day! That's gotta be a record!


Yebbut, before I split the thread it was one of the highest viewed threads on the forum!


----------



## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

*Re: EVan-Tricycle*

I have often wondered if the front overhanging cab could be overhanging too much. So I had a comparative measure against my Skoda Octavia.

The front axle centre line to the front edge of the bumper on the Skoda is the same as my trike. The wheelbase of the Skoda is only 8" longer then the trike and it is 3' longer overall.

That should be ok, hopefully not looking too front heavy.


----------



## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

*Re: EVan-Tricycle*



Woodsmith said:


> I have often wondered if the front overhanging cab could be overhanging too much. So I had a comparative measure against my Skoda Octavia.
> 
> The front axle centre line to the front edge of the bumper on the Skoda is the same as my trike. The wheelbase of the Skoda is only 8" longer then the trike and it is 3' longer overall.
> 
> That should be ok, hopefully not looking too front heavy.


I like it. It reminds me of the old Ford and Dodge pickups from the 60s here. They were basically vans with the roof cut off the back, and looked like they were going to fall on their faces at any moment. I've heard they will do nice stoppies.  My uncle had one when I was 16 and I literally begged him to sell it to me, but he junked it claiming it was unsafe - the steering box (a bolt on part) had play in it...


----------



## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

*Re: EVan-Tricycle*

I have bought another part. A little reward for making a few big steps in renovating my house so that I can get married.
I bought, from Ebay, a Land Rover Discovery 1 steering shaft that should give me a UJs that fits the MG splines with a flexi fiber joint that should fit the VW bevel box.









With it I should be able to get the final location of the bevel box and the steering column.

It might even save some 'cut and shut' welding on the steering column. I can shorten a Mini steering column I have by grinding the lower end to the pentagon shape that the clamped section of the flexi joint fits to. That makes it all pretty 'standard' looking with no DIY welds that might fail.

I must make sure the ignition key switch and steering lock don't end up by my right foot though!


----------



## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

*Re: EVan-Tricycle*

I didn't do any house renovations today, just tidied up in preparation for Arch's Mum to visit.

So I spent a little 'me' time in the workshop and assembled a wooden 'wire frame' of the cab to test the fit.

I stuck as closely as I could to my initial dimensions and then tried it for size. The waistline was too high and I couldn't see the front of the 'hood' for parking.

I decided to flex the frame about and change some of the dimensions until it felt right. I will need to take the new measurements and make a new model of it.

Ignore the funny angles at the back of the cab, that was just for lack of width and height so the 'corners' went out at an angle to get the cab width right.


----------



## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

*Re: EVan-Tricycle*

Absolutely Woody! I love it!  And screw practicality, that single wheel tagging along back there is what makes it something really special!


----------



## Dave Koller (Nov 15, 2008)

*Re: EVan-Tricycle*

I like it wood (for my two cents !)....


----------



## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

*Re: EVan-Tricycle*

Cheers guys, 

I took the measurements and compared it to my original sketch. I am going to struggle with the doors as the Land Rover door tops won't fit now.
To get them low enough for the bottom of the windscreen the door frame is too low for access and side views. Raising it to the right height and the windscreen will need a bend along the bottom edge.

A long family weekend now with Arch's mum so no opportunity to re work it yet.

I may have to make a template of a door top to make it easier to make full scale adjustments.


----------



## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

*Re: EVan-Tricycle*

I have ordered the steel for the chassis!

The local steel stockholder was less then half the price of one advertising on Ebay! How could I say 'No!'?

It was only by chance I did this. I went out to a medical appointment that was delayed for a while and so I popped up the road to the steel stockholder to check the price. Decided to order it in straight away.

I should be able to pick it up on Tuesday, then....


....back to house renovations!


----------



## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

*Re: EVan-Tricycle*



Woodsmith said:


> I have ordered the steel for the chassis!
> 
> The local steel stockholder was less then half the price of one advertising on Ebay! How could I say 'No!'?
> 
> ...


Woohoo! Now hurry up and finish that Honey-do list!


----------



## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

*Re: EVan-Tricycle*

I have the steel for my chassis!

Also as I returned home the postman arrived with the steering column shaft. It fits and is aluminium!
I guess I have to have something light weight to offset the weight of everything else!

However, back to that 'honey-do' list.


----------



## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

*Re: EVan-Tricycle*

I spent a bit of time in the workshop, on an off, today.

The steering column fitted fine and sets the position of the bevel box relative to the MGB rack.
The rubber flexi coupling was riveted on and so I cut the rivets off and bolted it to the flange from the VW. The other side of the flexi can fit on the upward side of the bevel box.

However, I have also got a bid on a complete MGB column, with wheel, switches, steering lock and keys so if I win that I can see how I adapt it to fit.

So, I dismantled the wooden 'wire frame' and the MGB front suspension to clear the floor for the chassis.
I then laid out, leveled, and squared the chassis rails.
I then placed the cross member on top and located it accurately before marking out the cutouts. The cross member needed to be tilted to get the caster angle. I used a jack to tilt it and then an adjustable spirit level to get it at 4 deg. The 4 deg is the suggested caster angle when using radial tyres according to a source on the internet (must find the link at some point, in case I am wrong)....

I then cut out the underside of the cross member and test fitted it to the chassis rails. It still needs some filing to fine tune the fit and to get the caster angle correct.

I am working 'tractor style' and using a hacksaw and chisel to do the cutting. Still got to finish chiseling off the steering rack mounts. Then I will be stick welding as I am out of MIG gas.

Back to that Honey-Do list now.


----------



## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

*Re: EVan-Tricycle*

Awesome! Keep sneaking away to the shop like this when Arch isn't looking - we won't tell.


----------



## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

*Re: EVan-Tricycle*



toddshotrods said:


> Awesome! Keep sneaking away to the shop like this when Arch isn't looking - we won't tell.


Arch doesn't mind really. 

The Honey-Do list is as much my list as hers. 
The sooner it is done the sooner she can move in, the sooner I can have more time in the workshop building the EVan-Tricycle and playing with the tractor!


----------



## tylerwatts (Feb 9, 2012)

Wow Woody it is coming along well! I think this is going to be a very successful build. I look forward to it's progress.


----------



## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

*Re: EVan-Tricycle*



tylerwatts said:


> Wow Woody it is coming along well! I think this is going to be a very successful build. I look forward to it's progress.


Thanks, it is a very slow build, given it has taken years to get to two bits of metal and a cross member!

I hope it will be successful as I can't afford the investment to find it isn't road legal.


----------



## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

*Re: EVan-Tricycle*

I spent another couple of hours in the workshop, mostly chiseling and filing but also some cutting.

I fine tuned the cross member so that it fitted correctly. There are a couple of gaps, nothing much, but it is accurate enough.
The steering rack mounts were cut off, as were the extensions on the back of the cross member that had two of the original mounting bolt holes. The welds were ground flush and the paint removed from around the cuts ready for welding.

I then placed the steering rack and bevel box to determine the new rack mounts. I think I will need to tack weld the cross member and then set up the suspension and the cab floor and seat again to ensure the bevel box is in the right place.

One of the photos shows the underside of the cross member and the slight angle it makes with the chassis rail. I am tempted to put a slight taper into the underside of the rails to follow this angle and to reduce the chassis depth at the front. It is a lot of sawing though. 

Having the Honey-Do list has been good. It has allowed me to do some house renovations and then have some fun in the workshop.
However, today I am tired. I sat down earlier this afternoon and fell asleep for a couple minutes without realising.


----------



## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

*Re: EVan-Tricycle*



Woodsmith said:


> I spent another couple of hours in the workshop, mostly chiseling and filing but also some cutting.
> 
> I fine tuned the cross member so that it fitted correctly. There are a couple of gaps, nothing much, but it is accurate enough...


Looks really good Woody!






Woodsmith said:


> ...However, today I am tired. I sat down earlier this afternoon and fell asleep for a couple minutes without realising.


Oh joy joys of middle-age! I have been doing that a lot lately. I remember when I used to sleep 3-4 hours, work like a mad man all day, eat a huge dinner, and have trouble winding down to sleep by 2-3am... Back then, I really couldn't understand how anyone could fall asleep in the middle of the day, and thought naps were for babies and toddlers. Now, don't let the pace slow down too much...


----------



## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

*Re: EVan-Tricycle*



toddshotrods said:


> Looks really good Woody!


Cheers Todd!






toddshotrods said:


> Oh joy joys of middle-age! I have been doing that a lot lately. I remember when I used to sleep 3-4 hours, work like a mad man all day, eat a huge dinner, and have trouble winding down to sleep by 2-3am... Back then, I really couldn't understand how anyone could fall asleep in the middle of the day, and thought naps were for babies and toddlers. Now, don't let the pace slow down too much...


Oh don't, I already feel old, I don't need any help along the way.


----------



## Arch (Aug 21, 2011)

*Re: EVan-Tricycle*



Woodsmith said:


> Oh don't, I already feel old, I don't need any help along the way.



Nah, you're only as old as the woman you feel....

(that gets you off about 3 years )

Looking good! Another Thing evolves in the Basement!


----------



## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

*Re: EVan-Tricycle*



Arch said:


> Looking good! Another Thing evolves in the Basement!












_"Pass me another welding electrode, Igor, and we shall make the Creature drive!"_


That is no reflection on you Arch!


----------



## Arch (Aug 21, 2011)

*Re: EVan-Tricycle*



Woodsmith said:


> _"Pass me another welding electrode, Igor, and we shall make the Creature drive!"_
> 
> 
> That is no reflection on you Arch!



Oh! I thought I was the one with the big feet!


----------



## Arch (Aug 21, 2011)

*Re: EVan-Tricycle*

Oh, and I notice you've got one of your winches into that workshop action scene..


----------



## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

*Re: EVan-Tricycle*

For all those toughened windscreen detractors I have bought a laminated screen.








It is 38 3/4" high, 32" wide at the top and 44 1/2" wide at the bottom.

Most importantly, it is electrically heated at 12v! 

It is the driver's side screen from a Leyland Lynx bus.








http://www.countrybus.org/LX/LX.htm

It took a lot of research to find out the size and the voltage before I committed to buying it. I made the plunge as there were two for sale and one had just sold. I thought best not to lose this as I was going to buy it anyway, just not yet. I would have bought both in case I broke one.

I could do with the double arm wiper, and the roller blind as well now!

I have mocked up the size of the screen on my 1/10th model and it is almost the whole front of the cab, from head lights to roof. I guess that makes the shape of the cab a little more self determined!

Scary to realise that the EVan-Tricycle is only half the width of a bus!


----------



## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

*Re: EVan-Tricycle*

Too tired to do anything complicated today. A bit on the house, some laundry and a bit in the workshop.

I set up the seat mock up and positioned the steering bevel box. I found that with the chassis depth I could lower the bevel box so that the first UJ is below the floor but keeping the bevel box above the lower edge of the chassis. That makes the steering rack shaft lower at the front end and less of an intrusion into the foot well pedal area.

I will need to move the chassis rails back a little way to include a full width front cross member. The cross member will then have the brackets to locate the bevel box. I will need to ensure that there is space for the brake pedal to come along the outside of the chassis rail and up through the floor.


----------



## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

*Re: EVan-Tricycle*

I picked up the windscreen today, and achieved 73.6mpg in my car.

The seller had two but sold the one in the above image. I got the second one, it is less clean and has a small chip in the bottom corner. That shouldn't affect its legality as it will be out of sight in the fitting. I would have made more of a fuss but the seller is also away and so I had to deal with his employees at his work!

I will make a template of it and use that for testing location on the cab.

It is definitely heated, which was my worry. The fine elements are clearly visible next to the connector block.


----------



## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

*Re: EVan-Tricycle*

A little (potentially huge) pondering to throw out there...

This building in wood lark, I would like to build the cab in wood, it will be good therapy. Flat plywood sheet is easy, some ash framing and curvy panels will be a good challenge (more therapy for me) that I would enjoy.

I was talking to some EV friends last night and discussing the ideas around crash safety and wondering about a steel cage or cab frame. But there is no crumple zone to absorb any impacts. I am not thinking so much of hitting things, I generally drive too carefully for that to be a big risk, but more likely someone overtaking and causing a head on crash I can't avoid.

One says I should go steel all the way to get a strong safety cell/cage, the other says wood should be good at absorbing impacts.

I am torn, given there is no crumple zone, as the debate '_feels_' almost as invalid as discussing crash safety on a motor bike. But I like safety and don't like protecting my vehicle with my body, hence no motorbike.

The MSVA ignores it and is only interested in components and seat belts in that respect.

Should I build the cab all in wood, all in steel, steel frame with wood panels, some other option, ignore the crash safety and accept the risk as if I were a biker?

Thoughts please.


----------



## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

*Re: EVan-Tricycle*

Hi Woodsmith,
A head on crash is pretty unsurvivable anyway - even without your very driver forwards set-up

I would think in terms of surviving a glancing impact - in which case your structure should stay together and your seat belts should hold you in the structure

A steel structure or a wooden one - you should be able to build either strong enough to give some protection

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=joMK1WZjP7g

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=joMK1WZjP7g&feature=player_detailpage


----------



## MalcolmB (Jun 10, 2008)

*Re: EVan-Tricycle*

Like you say, without a crumple zone it's a bit of a moot question. Personally though I would go for a seamless tubular steel frame with plywood infill panels. I would guess that even with your woodworking skills the weakest point in an all-wood structure would be at the corner joints. A steel frame reduces that weakness. It also provides secure mounting points for the chassis, seatbelts and doors, and you can repair or modify individual panels much more easily.

On other hand, a shaped ash frame would give a lot more scope for artistic interpretation


----------



## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

*Re: EVan-Tricycle*

Cheers guys.

A seamless tube cage would give a 'comforting and secure' feeling at a lot of expense and fiddly design around some strange angles. That feels like a preferred route though, if cost was not an issue. It is just something I can't produce in house so would need detailed drawings and a cage builder.

However, if the safety added is negligible then  the feeling of safety may be unfounded and an unnecessary expense.

A compromise could be a welded frame in box section and round tube to give some structure on which panels and doors are mounted. There would be some solidity for minor scrapes though anything more could distort the whole cab more then with a proper cage.


----------



## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

*Re: EVan-Tricycle*

My vote is for an all wood body, total creative freedom in design (as much as possible), with a steel roll cage concealed inside it. Build the cage after the fact, to fit inside your body - race car style.

Edit: I like the ash framed, curvy-paneled body idea... 

As for the crumple zone issue, crumple zones absorb the impact, lessening the amount of energy transferred to the occupants, but it really doesn't protect one in a serious crash. At parking lot speeds, and slow around-town driving, they do reasonably well but I have seen more than my share of people being carted of in ambulances in _fender benders_. Crumple zones became standard issue because cars made of folded sheet metal become standard; replacing the body on frame design. I have been in accidents in both, and call BS on most of that superior safety stuff of the crumple cars.

Roll cages may transmit more of the energy of the crash to the occupants, but those occupants regularly _walk_ away from horrendous crashes, at incredible speeds. I can't count how many race crash videos I have seen with a car hitting a concrete wall (that doesn't move an inch) at 150-200mph and watching the driver walk away from a disintegrated pile of smoking mess. Sure, he's a little sore for a bit, afterwards, but considering what he just survived... I was in my Ford van following my pastor's Chevy van once, on the the way to church service a few hours away. We were both loaded to the gills with finely dressed "church folk", and mine van (being my motorcycle transporter) didn't even have seats, beyond the driver and passenger "chairs". A couple cars ahead of him something happened causing the entire lane to come to an abrupt stop, at 65mph. My brake master cylinder went out under the pressure of a full panic stop, and I had cars on either side of me - nowhere to go but right into the back of him!  It bent his back doors, and my front bumper. Beyond the terror, no one in either vehicle even had a scuff, nor do I remember any reports of soreness afterwards.

Don't get me wrong, I drive a small "crumple car" daily, and trust it completely. I'm just defending a caged/solid frame vehicle as being just as good/better, in a age where everyone thinks a vehicle needs to fold up around the driver to protect them. 

Final point: non of us have the resources to properly design a safe crumple car. Even after millions and millions of dollars spent, and many vehicles slammed into barriers, the major manufacturers get it wrong sometimes, and receive poor crash test ratings. I wouldn't put a lot of faith in a backyard engineered crumpler - says the guy building a speedster, with no cage, no sides, inches below his azz, and his head at door handle height!


----------



## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

*Re: EVan-Tricycle*

Good points, Todd.

I think part of the safety of a cage is the seat and harness to prevent uncontrolled movement and to spread the load of impact over the whole torso. That is easier to build in then crumple zones and easier to get closer to right then air bags.

The cabin is going to be too small and cramped to have an ash frame and an internal cage though. I may have to look at a cage sooner then that to get it to fit.
That will lead to a frame on which panels are hung.

We'll see as it develops, also dependent on getting an affordable cage built.


----------



## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

*Re: EVan-Tricycle*



Woodsmith said:


> ...I think part of the safety of a cage is the seat and harness to prevent uncontrolled movement and to spread the load of impact over the whole torso. That is easier to build in then crumple zones and easier to get closer to right then air bags...


The race harnesses are good for high speed, high energy, situations - I think a common, three-point, shoulder, belt that actually locks on impact would suffice in normal street driving. It still locks one in place pretty well, and allows the cage and frame to do their job. Ever try to reach for something in the car, at the same instance that you stab the brake pedal?  Most normal traffic, low speed, injuries I remember hearing about were the result of the occupant(s) NOT having a seat belt on and being ejected or tossed around in the vehicle. A 4-5pt race harness would be extremely frustrating in a normal street car because they restrict ALL movement to work properly; as they don't lock upon application of the brakes, or impact, the way passenger car restraints do.






Woodsmith said:


> ...The cabin is going to be too small and cramped to have an ash frame and an internal cage though. I may have to look at a cage sooner then that to get it to fit.
> That will lead to a frame on which panels are hung.
> 
> We'll see as it develops, also dependent on getting an affordable cage built.


Perhaps you can build the ash framing as a skin, that looks like a frame, over the steel cage - kind of like corner molding?

Two thoughts on cost: I have been building my cages from pre-bent roll cage kits because the cost was significantly cheaper. I paid $300 for Schism's cage, and have enough material to get two vehicles roughed in and rolling. It would have cost me at least twice that to purchase straight tubing, and have it bent; or purchase my own bender. The reason I didn't do that is they have a CNC, mandrel, bender that I wouldn't be able to match the quality of with a cheapo home bender.

Secondly, it doesn't have to be round tubing - you can fabricate almost any bend imaginable with fabricated square/rectangular tubing. I wouldn't be concerned with the welded vs "seamless" aspect if I were making the bends and welding them myself (good welds are actually stronger than the material - and how all those "seamless" tubing sections are put together ). Those concerns seem to stem mainly from people using non-structural pipe as tubing. In the custom car industry, people have been fabricating frame rails from four pieces of welded sheet for decades and, in fact, the best of the best frames are built this way - and touted as being "the best" because of it.


----------



## MalcolmB (Jun 10, 2008)

*Re: EVan-Tricycle*



toddshotrods said:


> I wouldn't be concerned with the welded vs "seamless" aspect if I were making the bends and welding them myself (good welds are actually stronger than the material - and how all those "seamless" tubing sections are put together).


Good point Todd.


----------



## Dave Koller (Nov 15, 2008)

*Re: EVan-Tricycle*

Make your metal cage, hide it with thin veneer, and wood the outside as planned. My jeep is small with a metal cage - but they can roll over easy .. 


Or --- make a frame of laminated Yew layers - bounces more than steel and is strong.. (my dad made longbows !!) He made a steam cabinet and bent wood onto all sorts of shapes and laminated layers.. tough and resilient.....
He made a boat of veneer frame and thin layers you could lift over your head and put a 40 HP mercury outboard on....


----------



## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

*Re: EVan-Tricycle*

I've used a race harness day to day for several years in a Land Rover and was fine with it. It did mean ensuring that I could reach all the controls and accessories I wanted. I can do likewise in the trike cab if it came to it.
I quite like the four point race harness, I felt 'naked' when I switched back to a normal seat belt afterwards.



The steam bent Yew is so tempting. I was thinking steam bent Ash but with Ash die back I am wondering if prices are going up.

I am being drawn towards wood on steel and fabricating the cage. After all, I am not aiming to meet any competition rules that specify continuous tube.

I feel a need to model the external shape of the cab with the new windscreen shape to see the angles I will have to work with.


----------



## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

*Re: EVan-Tricycle*

Hi Woodsmith
I jumped through hoops to get my cage to meet the motorsport requirements

And they are total nonsense!

You HAVE TO use a specific steel tube - but the specs are mild steel!

I love the idea of a a steam bent wooden frame


----------



## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

*Re: EVan-Tricycle*



Duncan said:


> ...motorsport requirements...
> 
> ...And they are total nonsense!...


Agreed. For example: according to NHRA, and many of them, a '72 Datsun unibody car with a mild steel roll cage is safer than a new Corvette.  The Datsun could run as fast a 8.50's at insane trap speeds for such a little car, while the Vette would be kicked off the track if it went faster than 11.0 (around 100mph) for not having a roll bar or cage. Which one would you rather roll, flip, and bounce off a concrete wall.


----------



## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

*Re: EVan-Tricycle*

I think it may well be settled, a steel fabricated cage with wooden panels and interior.

I had a brief panic earlier as I finally got around to examining and cleaning that Leyland Lynx windscreen. I couldn't find the safety approval markings! 

I looked in all the corners, along the top and bottom edges, and started wondering about white elephants and alternative screen options again when suddenly I found it! Phew! 

It was about 4" down from the centre of the top of the screen, barely visible in the dirt, heating wires, and multiple reflections off the different layers of glass. I can relax again now.


----------



## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

*Re: EVan-Tricycle*

When I read of all of the hoops some guys hop through to get their cars qualified, it makes me really appreciate living in Arizona.

We have no real safety inspections, no real requirements as far as SAE or other official regulations to meet. We just do a clean build and keep all receipts for materials. 

I always advocate that everyone start out with a previously titled vehicle. That is 90% of the battle.

But sometimes, you need to do a completely "scratch" build. That is where complications start for most areas. You then wind up with a "Bonded" type title. That is where you post a bond to the state. Then in the future, if anyone steps up and claims that the vehicle is really theirs (and you didn't build it), the state has funds to prosecute or defend, whatever is appropriate.

I, on the other hand, kept every little receipt. Every bolt, nut washer...even when I had had it for years, I had some paperwork on it. I also did pics of every step of the build as well as some videos.

It was this mass of evidence that convinced the DMV that I did in fact build the car and they dropped the Bond portion and issued me a regular title.

It was worth all of the time and care to keep excellent records. Clerks understand paperwork and evidence. 

Doing it in another area, like the UK or NZ with all of the extra added requirements is a daunting thought.

I take my hat off to all of you.

Miz


----------



## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

*Re: EVan-Tricycle*

Cheers Miz.

It's where I sometimes envy builders like you and Todd. 

It is a little complex here but not as bad as in other countries. At least we are still allowed to scratch build, it just takes more time reading and researching, and also keeping a record of everything. Once IVA or MSVA tested then it is all legal and that's that.

The only variations is that using used parts we end up with a Q plate on the registration and that is stuck with the vehicle for life. 
Or if building with all new parts, with one refurbished part like the engine, then the vehicle is registered as a new vehicle and registrations can be changed or transferred. 
If a vehicle is converted, and if enough of the original vehicle is used, then the original registration is kept.

I appreciate the safety behind all the testing but I worry about the rest of Europe 'pulling rank' one day and ending the UK amateur build industry. We occasionally get a hint of a threat of that.
It does mean that I can't fit airbags or ABS as it then needs to be type approved for my specific vehicle.

When I previously built 'oddballs' the vehicle only needed the same annual safety test and insurance, as all vehicles on the road, to be legal.


My current bit of research is to find the official definition differences between 'windows partially or completely to either side of the driver' and 'side screens'.
The former has to be marked safety glass, the later can be other unmarked safety glazing (acrylic?).

If I can have side screens then I can make the door glazing out of acrylic to fit the shape of the cab.
If not then I will need to find marked safety car door glass that I can use.


----------



## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

*Re: EVan-Tricycle*

Having ignored my Honey-do list to enjoy the glorious sunshine pouring through my office window I spent the afternoon on the drawing board with a roll of paper I found...
The paper is a bit rubbish but I can cut off as much as I need to draw on and was free.



I started to sketch the basic concept to get the scale and general layout in place. The cab is based around a compromise between using the Leyland Lynx windscreen while still trying to use the Land Rover door tops.

The angled sides of the windscreen pulls the cab shape into having sloping sides so I put a crease line from the bottom edge of the windscreen back and up to the line created by the door top joint at the back.



I don't much like the look from the front, nor the side.
I want to have a bit more 'design flair' but the huge windscreen dominates a bit.
I will look for some lighting options to get away from the simple lights to get a less 'utility' look.


----------



## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

*Re: EVan-Tricycle*

What about rolling the front of the cab, under the windshield? Maybe doing the steam bending stuff there and developing one complex-curvature wooden panel to kind of break up the _utility_. Combined with a pair/set of interesting headlights... I would add as much detail there as possible. It's amazing what you can make people see with one dominating feature. Evolution has been pulling that trick on men with female design cues for years!


----------



## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

*Re: EVan-Tricycle*



toddshotrods said:


> What about rolling the front of the cab, under the windshield? Maybe doing the steam bending stuff there and developing one complex-curvature wooden panel to kind of break up the _utility_. Combined with a pair/set of interesting headlights... I would add as much detail there as possible. It's amazing what you can make people see with one dominating feature. Evolution has been pulling that trick on men with female design cues for years!


Errrmmmm.....Yeah......Ohhhh kaaaay.


I think you're right though.
Now I have the basic shape I can play with it and see where I can move stuff about.
I can see if I can move the door tops and the screen back a bit to give some space for a bit of rhinoplasty without adding anymore length to the front.
The nicer headlights need a little hood and fender space and don't work so well with a flat front so maybe that is the way to go.


----------



## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

*Re: EVan-Tricycle*

Over the long and sunny weekend I did a bit of thinking and playing with simple curves, only in profile for now. 

The windscreen is sloped back at 45deg and the doors are hinged to the windscreen pillar (A post) and supported by a gas strut. 
The 'oval' shaped door glazing could slide up and down and the crescent shaped glazing would be fixed.
I figured I could ignore the glazing, initially, and have them as fixed glazing side screens on cut down doors for the benefit of the MSVA inspection. Side screens are not tested if they are not fitted!
I can then find someone who can provide alternative legal glazing to make the doors proper.

I will need to model this in 3D to see how it looks. 
Two options with the windscreen is to have it narrow at the top, or narrow at the bottom. I will need to see how each looks and fits with the space available.

The slope of the windscreen may be too much, I will only know when I try it in the full size mock up.

I also want to adjust the curves from being simple arcs from circles to being more fluid and of varying radii. I don't have a French curve to hand though so will do it free hand.


----------



## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

*Re: EVan-Tricycle*



Woodsmith said:


> Over the long and sunny weekend I did a bit of thinking and playing with simple curves, only in profile for now...
> 
> ...I also want to adjust the curves from being simple arcs from circles to being more fluid and of varying radii. I don't have a French curve to hand though so will do it free hand.


Of course you know I'm eating this up, right!?  I love it - can't wait to see it evolve.


----------



## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

*Re: EVan-Tricycle*

I think one of the next stages, when the profile is refined a bit more, will have to be getting a cheap sheet of plywood and cutting out the whole side profile at full scale. I can then see if it works for access, visibility, and headroom.

I might even open up the cab a little so that the external wheel arches/fenders are lost completely. That is one of the options on the windscreen orientation. 
Narrow at the top and wide at the bottom leads to a cab that is wide at the front and tapering back to expose the fenders. Wide at the top and narrow at the bottom leads to a cab that is narrow at the front and wide enough at the rear to hide the fenders. At least that is how it is sort of looking in my head. I will need to model the junction between the screen and the doors along the A pillar to see how that is going to work in reality.

However, for the rest of this week I need to sort out the Vehicle Excise Duty (license/tax disc) on my diesel car, bake cakes for a environmentalists get together, do some plastering, mend some trousers/pants, do some therapy homework, estimate for some potential EV repair work....


----------



## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

*Re: EVan-Tricycle*

So from that previous 'drawn with rules and compass' sketch I used another overlay and did a freehand drawing with a steeper screen angle that worked out at 35deg from vertical.

The door window can still be a wind down front section but also I can just make the door bottom and then fix on a side screen.

The curves look nicer but there is still a bit more work to do on it to get it 'just right'.

I am planning on the cab sides being flat but the front, roof and back will be glue laminated ply on a timber frame. Timber being easier to bend in house then steel tube but if the design is refined to specific radii curves then I could farm out the tube rolling to get two side frames. That would be preferable for a stronger cage.


----------



## Dave Koller (Nov 15, 2008)

*Re: EVan-Tricycle*

Nice lines !! I see where you could jigsaw and glue a wood frame under this and end up with strength and design.....

Now for the wind tunnel tests .....


----------



## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

*Re: EVan-Tricycle*



Dave Koller said:


> Nice lines !! I see where you could jigsaw and glue a wood frame under this and end up with strength and design.....


Cheers!





Dave Koller said:


> Now for the wind tunnel tests .....


I reckon it will have a CDa of, oh, about 51.8!

At only 40mph, or thereabouts, my only real concern is going to be driving into head winds!


----------



## Tamber (Jun 29, 2010)

*Re: EVan-Tricycle*



Woodsmith said:


> my only real concern is going to be driving into head winds!


Rather than driving into crosswinds, with *that* side profile?


----------



## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

*Re: EVan-Tricycle*



Tamber said:


> Rather than driving into crosswinds, with *that* side profile?


I can't really do much about the side elevation area, I have to sit somewhere. The profile will just have to be somewhat equivalent to me in a chair holding a steering wheel and with a large pane of flat glass ahead of me.

Maybe doing without door glazing will let some of the crosswinds through a bit....


----------



## Tamber (Jun 29, 2010)

*Re: EVan-Tricycle*



Woodsmith said:


> Maybe doing without door glazing will let some of the crosswinds through a bit....


There'll be an *awful* whistle when you're looking straight ahead, though. 

It probably shouldn't be too bad, really, with how small it is; and with most of the weight being -- presumably, anyhow -- low down and centred well. And as long as you don't make a habit of trundling o'er Thelwall viaduct when the wind picks up...


With the curved roofline, I shouldn't think there'd be too much to worry about regarding headwinds; at least not at your design speed. I could be wrong, though; it does happen from time to time.


----------



## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

*Re: EVan-Tricycle*



Tamber said:


> There'll be an *awful* whistle when you're looking straight ahead, though.


What, in one ear and out the other?



Tamber said:


> It probably shouldn't be too bad, really, with how small it is; and with most of the weight being -- presumably, anyhow -- low down and centred well. And as long as you don't make a habit of trundling o'er Thelwall viaduct when the wind picks up...
> 
> 
> With the curved roofline, I shouldn't think there'd be too much to worry about regarding headwinds; at least not at your design speed. I could be wrong, though; it does happen from time to time.


The front of the cab to the axle centre line is 900mm and the cab roof is to be less then 1500mm from the road surface at normal ride height. The width of the cab will be less then 1200mm plus wheel arch extensions to cover the front tyres.

I am only expecting to run at mostly 30mph with the occasional road taken at 40mph. We do get some strong gusts and so I want enough reserve to fight that without slowing down too much, and also enough to maintain 40mph on hills. It will be a bit of guess work as to how much voltage I will need but as I have been very kindly gifted a pair of 72v controllers I will start there and see if it is enough.

I doubt I will get as far as Thelwall Viaduct, that implies a much greater range and motorway speeds!
However, Centenary Bridge in Trafford Park is one I cross frequently.


----------



## Dave Koller (Nov 15, 2008)

*Re: EVan-Tricycle*

Good Grief - My Jeep has more cross-wind and head-on than anything streamlined like that. It is a box pushing the air (and catching it) ....


----------



## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

*Re: EVan-Tricycle*



Dave Koller said:


> Good Grief - My Jeep has more cross-wind and head-on than anything streamlined like that. It is a box pushing the air (and catching it) ....


That's what I was thinking. I think the scale of projects like Woody and I dream up are lost on people. In terms of surface area, there just isn't much there.

Where's that plywood mock-up?!


----------



## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

*Re: EVan-Tricycle*



Dave Koller said:


> Good Grief - My Jeep has more cross-wind and head-on than anything streamlined like that. It is a box pushing the air (and catching it) ....


LOL


Big progress today!

I have been to the bank and opened a business account so I can start looking forward to doing some paid work in the near future.

More importantly I have just been on the phone to Adrian Flux insurance company and they have given me a provisional 'ball park' quote on insuring me and Arch to drive the EVan-Tricycle (with only me for business use) for 3k miles a year of just less then £400pa! Happy dance! Happy dance (especially to the great 80's 'hold music' the company was playing!)
The quote is less then half of the amount I pay on my diesel car!

While I was on the phone to the insurer I asked about insuring the tractor too, if I got it road registered. Also just shy of £400 and same terms as above less the business use.

It was funny when the chap asked for my estimated annual mileage on the tractor. I said maybe 15, he said 15 hundred miles? No, just 15. anyway, it will be covered for 1500 miles as that is the least they can cover for!


----------



## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

*Re: EVan-Tricycle*

I managed a few hours in the workshop this afternoon and decided to make the steering rack mounting brackets. I figured that nothing else could be accurately worked out until the rack was solidly mounted to the cross member.

I used some 20mm x 2mm square tube and some 40mm x 3mm square tube to get the alignment right.

The bolts are not screwed in as they are too short for now but when I get the right ones I will be able to fit the brackets to the rack and then weld the brackets to the cross member.


----------



## Dave Koller (Nov 15, 2008)

*Re: EVan-Tricycle*

Watching .... LOL Love the "maker of things"


----------



## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

*Re: EVan-Tricycle*



Dave Koller said:


> Watching .... LOL Love the "maker of things"


Cheers.

Maker of Things sums me up perfectly for getting back into paid work. I make lots of different things from lots of different things.
Unfortunately public liability insurance doesn't think its so good as I don't fit standard policy.

At least the quote for insuring the EVan-Tricycle is more sensible.


----------



## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

*Re: EVan-Tricycle*

I've been playing with some estimates for weight, CoG, and proportions and I am struggling to keep the overall CoG low enough to reduce the chances of tipping over. Also the weight is 70% front 30% rear if I carry all my tools to the rear of the load bed. Anything else on the load bed and it starts pushing, not only the weight up on the rear wheel but also the raises the CoG to tipping over point.
This is assuming a 100Ah lithium pack but is improved if I use a large and heavy lead pack.

I could just accept that and say that it is a (relatively) slow load vehicle. The alternative would be to get an MGB rear axle and make it a four wheel vehicle.
A four wheeler changes the game plan a lot. The IVA test is harder and more costly to meet as a 'car/light van' but I would be over weight and power for a quadricycle under the MSVA rules.

Hmmmmm, drums fingers on the edge of the drawing board while pondering....


----------



## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

*Re: EVan-Tricycle*

_Adrian Flux insurance company and they have given me a provisional 'ball park' quote on insuring me and Arch to drive the EVan-Tricycle (with only me for business use) for 3k miles a year of just less then £400pa

_I had forgotten how expensive insurance in the UK was
I am paying $250 (125 pounds) for the Device


----------



## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

*Re: EVan-Tricycle*

Aside from group insurance for my AEC Matador, through an owner's club, I have never had a quote that could be considered cheap. First car cost me £250 back in '84 and insurance was £275. It has only ever gone upwards since despite all my no claims discount. 
Current car is over £900 including the 75% discount.
I guess high mileage, business use, and living in a poor area of town doesn't help.


----------



## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

*Re: EVan-Tricycle*



Woodsmith said:


> ...The alternative would be to get an MGB rear axle and make it a four wheel vehicle.
> A four wheeler changes the game plan a lot. The IVA test is harder and more costly to meet as a 'car/light van' but I would be over weight and power for a quadricycle under the MSVA rules.
> 
> Hmmmmm, drums fingers on the edge of the drawing board while pondering....


I struggled with whether to build a trike or four-wheeler with PackRat. My struggle was with keeping the budget low and sorting out some kind of rear suspension, but I eventually figured out a plan for the trike setup. My balance is off though, with most of my weight on the rear wheel, which going to a four-wheeler would also have helped alleviate some of the handling concerns. My CoG should be _in the basement_, so I am hoping that will help with handing.

What is raising your CoG so much, the seating position? If so, could you go tandem and sit low between the front wheels?


----------



## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

*Re: EVan-Tricycle*



toddshotrods said:


> What is raising your CoG so much, the seating position? If so, could you go tandem and sit low between the front wheels?


Part of the problem is that I am now sticking with the 49" wide front track of the MGB and not making it wider as I was before, due to the complexities and cost of wider steering rack, longer wishbones, lever operated coil over dampers, etc.
the other part of the problem is the cab and seating height.

On my own I can sit between the MGB lever arm dampers, where the ICE would have been. However, with a two seater I have to sit above the dampers and that lifts the height of the cab too.
1+1 seating is out as the seat would take up the bulk of the useable load bed space.

In my Skoda the seat height is about 16" off the floor at normal ride height. In the trike it is currently at 17" with the suspension on full bump.

If I can't move the CoG down then I can move it forward but that puts too much weight on the front wheels.
Just moving the motor to under the cab sorts the tipping issue by moving the CoG forwards but results in around 85% of the weight over the front wheels.

I could bring the load bed, and hence the chassis CoG, down but that impacts on the battery pack space that is already at the lowest point. It means I can't fit lead and would have to risk lithium packs lying flat on their sides.

Various hypothetical variations all seem to hover on one side or the other of the 'nearly tipping over' point, and that is without even having a load on the load bed.


----------



## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

*Re: EVan-Tricycle*



Woodsmith said:


> I've been playing with some estimates for weight, CoG, and proportions and I am struggling to keep the overall CoG low enough to reduce the chances of tipping over.


Doh! How embarrassing! 
My second stupid mistake of the day.

I have been reading up on the IVA and pondering the costs of an axle to make it a four wheeler and reconfiguring numbers in the calculations when I suddenly realised that in all the figures for component weights I completely left out the weight of the whole front axle assembly!

It is amazing how much difference around 100kg of front axle assembly and wheels makes to the CoG!


The other stupid mistake?

I welded the steering rack brackets at the wrong angle. With all the bits of wood and lumps of stuff packed around the rack to hold its position while I was measuring the mount angle relative to the axle cross member I failed to notice the cross member had moved and tipped back about 10deg.
Only noticed after I bolted up and then tack welded the brackets onto the cross member. I had to do a quick 'cut and shut' on the brackets to get them right. 
They are right now.


I wonder what the next stupid mistake will be?


----------



## poprock (Apr 29, 2010)

*Re: EVan-Tricycle*

At our age it can be not staying in bed


----------



## Ektus (Feb 15, 2011)

*Re: EVan-Tricycle*



Woodsmith said:


> If I can't move the CoG down then I can move it forward but that puts too much weight on the front wheels.
> Just moving the motor to under the cab sorts the tipping issue by moving the CoG forwards but results in around 85% of the weight over the front wheels.


Please be careful there. You might prevent your ride from tipping to the side when cornering, but what about rolling over the front when breaking? Somewhere in here it has been stated that you should have approx. 1/3rd of the weight on each wheel of a 3-wheeler.


Regards
Ektus.


----------



## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

*Re: EVan-Tricycle*



Ektus said:


> Please be careful there. You might prevent your ride from tipping to the side when cornering, but what about rolling over the front when breaking? Somewhere in here it has been stated that you should have approx. 1/3rd of the weight on each wheel of a 3-wheeler.
> 
> 
> Regards
> Ektus.


Yes, that was what was causing me a great deal of concern. Then I found my 'school boy error' as I posted above. I forgot to include the weight of the whole front axle and wheel assembly in the calculations and putting that back in makes it all alright again.


----------



## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

*Re: EVan-Tricycle*

One of the design issues I have been pondering over is how to make the chassis 12" wide at the front where the cab and the front axle are, and 24" wide at the back where the motor will mount and where the pivots for the rear swing arm will need to sit to clear the motor.

I could have cut and welded the chassis rails to put a step angle into it. Or I could have cut the chassis and put in a full width cross member and then welded the front and rear lengths of chassis rail at the two different widths.

In the end I figured that a gentle flare from one width to the other would be better as it reduced the number of weld joints and removed any sudden changes in chassis width with some angled joint.

So I decided to check everything was square and centred, set up a centre line indicator and started to jack the chassis rails out. It started fine with a gentle arc developing but then the bend started to concentrate at the front axle where the bending moment was highest. I then decided to add a chain to around the chassis to restrain the arc further along and encourage a smoother arc to develop.
Temporary cross-members were added to take the load off the jack to allow for resetting and packing.

I am now letting it (me really) rest for a while before cutting cross-members in steel to weld in place to hold the shape of the chassis rails.


----------



## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

*Re: EVan-Tricycle*



Woodsmith said:


> ...In the end I figured that a gentle flare from one width to the other would be better as it reduced the number of weld joints and removed any sudden changes in chassis width with some angled joint...


Beautiful!  I love it Woody!


----------



## Dave Koller (Nov 15, 2008)

*Re: EVan-Tricycle*

OK, where is the "thumbs up" icon when you need it? !!! Hey I found it







!


----------



## tylerwatts (Feb 9, 2012)

Woody very nice! Hope it stays even across the centre line. Will make a very aesthetic design that! I'm surprised the front needs to be so narrow. Are you welding the suspension cross member to the chassis or bolting using original mounting points?


----------



## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

*Re: EVan-Tricycle*



Dave Koller said:


> OK, where is the "thumbs up" icon when you need it? !!! Hey I found it
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Cheers, thank you.



tylerwatts said:


> Woody very nice! Hope it stays even across the centre line. Will make a very aesthetic design that! I'm surprised the front needs to be so narrow. Are you welding the suspension cross member to the chassis or bolting using original mounting points?


I have been checking and rechecking and rechecking constantly and also setting the centre line from scratch each time to make sure that I am not checking against a faulty centre line.
I am also triangulating off the suspension mounts on the front axle to make sure it is still square at both ends.

The cross-member has been notched to sit over the two chassis rails, that is why it is so narrow at the front. The chassis rails needed to clear the lower wishbone mounts.


I have now tack welded a couple of cross-members in place. It was fun trying to get the restraining chain out. I needed a 2.5ton strap to ratchet up a bit to give me enough slack to slide the chain back down to the narrow end again.

It will do for now. I will return again after the weekend to make sure I have it all correct before I do any more.

Of course, there is always the issue of not welding too much together as it all still needs to be taken out of the basement at some point in the future!


----------



## Arch (Aug 21, 2011)

*Re: EVan-Tricycle*

That's looking really nice! My Dad used to say, if it looks right, it is right, and that looks right!

Mind you, my Dad used to wreck planes landing on aircraft carriers, so make of that what you will.


----------



## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

*Re: EVan-Tricycle*

I had a quick check this morning and the chassis is still true to the centre line but has a slight twist over its length, it is less then 2mm so it trues up if I stand on the front left corner.

I reckon once the front cross-member and axle is welded the twist should be gone. I may cut the tack welds from that centre cross-member and re-weld it when the twist is removed.


----------



## hmincr (Jan 20, 2012)

*Re: EVan-Tricycle*

This is a really nice build. I don't post much on this forum, but, I have built a lot of stuff over the years, and, I try to remember one thing I was taught, from one of the best fabricators I ever met. His one thing that lingers in my mind is, 

"NEVER put your strain IN-ON your welds." We extended the chassis on a dump truck I bought, to make it into a logging truck. The loads I put on that thing, and coming out of the woods twisting and flexing the truck, were incredible at times, but, his splicing of the section we inserted never became an issue. 

Your chassis must flex, and, in doing so, the welds may crack or tear out and allow the chassis to get way out of shape, and, you will have a rough time controlling the car if it is moving. 

I imagine you are aware of this, but, just wanted to state it in case someone that doesn't understand tries to do something similar. 

I hate to say this, but, pay close attention to those "tack welds" while you build up the chassis. Maybe tabs at each joint would be a good idea, to spread the strain over several welds in each location. 

When I was building ocean race boats, the common joint was butt and screw with epoxy. The boats were always cracking and breaking at the joints. I changed how the joints were made and the boss was really pleased with how I did it, so, placing the strain in-on the joints is not good. 

Hope this is taken in the correct way, Al. I saw a photo of exactly the kind of truck you are building, but, lost the page and haven't come across it since. It was a rounded shape and was something for you to actually see how you would be positioned in the cab. 

Good luck with your excellent build.


----------



## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

*Re: EVan-Tricycle*

That is a good point raised about the stresses in the chassis. 

At the moment my chassis is sitting with a bit of built in stress while I figure the form it will take. Currently it is starting to look right but I will be cutting all the welds back out again to then make sure the rails, cross-members and front axle are all going to sit comfortably before rewelding it outdoors. This stage lets me 'get a grip' on how it will be for now and is the easiest way for me to do this with my limited equipment and tooling. It is sort of creating its own jig, and measured dimensions, in the process.

It is quite likely that I will fully assemble the chassis only once it is outside so as to avoid trying to guess how big I can build it before it is too big and heavy to get up the basement stairs!


----------



## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

*Re: EVan-Tricycle*

The chassis has been de-stressed.

Using the axle cross-member, and the two I tacked in last time I gradually added more and more bend to the chassis rails until they settled down at the same point they were at before but without any loads on the cross-members.

It is also still square and true at both ends and the middle, though the middles of the curved sections of the rails are very slightly different from each other by 1/8" here and there. The curves are more like the sides of a polygon and are not quite symmetrical, but close enough where it matters.


----------



## hmincr (Jan 20, 2012)

*Re: EVan-Tricycle*

Sounds great woody.


----------



## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

*Re: EVan-Tricycle*

Nice work.


----------



## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

*Re: EVan-Tricycle*

Granted I've not done much on this for a while, life and stuff really.

However, recently I had a chat with a friend and mentioned that I was looking for some drive chain. I thought nothing more of it but then when we met up at the weekend for a cycle ride (he was cycling and I was support vehicle) he presented me with a package.

When I got home I found that it was a couple of lengths of 10B-2 chain and a hand full of chain connectors. I need about 8' and there is about 25' of chain there in two lengths, left over from another project.

So many bits of my projects have been gifted by some lovely and friendly people!


----------



## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

I have purchased an MGB rear axle, springs and dampers, for relatively little money.

This happened as I had a rethink on the trike layout and moved the motor to a longitudinal position just behind the front axle. The thought was to use the BMW final drive bevel box to chain drive the rear wheel.

The change in layout lead me to weigh what I had already and I found it was not as heavy as I had thought. That then lead me to reconsider the regs on heavy quadricycles, and that means I have 550kgs to play with for a commercial vehicle.
Some quick calculations suggest that if I am careful I should be able to do that with four wheels and have a more stable vehicle.
The only other limit is 15kW maximum continuous power output.

Buying the axle allows me to test the theory and forces me to keep the weight down.


----------



## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

*Re: EVan-Tricycle*

_The only other limit is 15kW maximum continuous power output.
_I can't remember - do you already have a motor for this beast?

My Hitachi 11 inch motor says very clearly on the motor label - 10Kw - (1 Hour rating) so it would meet your 15Kw limit nicely


----------



## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

*Re: EVan-Tricycle*



Duncan said:


> _The only other limit is 15kW maximum continuous power output.
> _I can't remember - do you already have a motor for this beast?
> 
> My Hitachi 11 inch motor says very clearly on the motor label - 10Kw - (1 Hour rating) so it would meet your 15Kw limit nicely


Yes, I have an 11" motor from a 4 ton capacity fork lift, should, be fine but has no motor plate so I can always make my own. 

I guess the issue is in the wording "maximum continuous power". That could mean anything but doesn't say anything about how high my peak power could be. Who will possibly know, let alone check, the authenticity of what I stamp onto a motor plate?


----------



## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

*Re: EVan-Tricycle*

Now you have to build it for 550Kg

Should be doable - BUT the device ended up at 710Kg

I had a target of 500kg - then I ended up doing too much beefing of the chassis

The biggest mistake was
I decided to plate the chassis with steel welded (brazed) on then I used 1mm sheet to try and reduce the distortion
BAAAAD Idea!
I ended up with distortion and weight

In hindsight I should have used much thinner plate and either MIG or rivets and a double sided tape joint with aluminium sheet

The motor does not help - mine is 103Kg - but I only had 44Kg of batteries

Can you build it ultra light and add a bit more once its certified???


----------



## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

*Re: EVan-Tricycle*

If I can build it below 550kg, that need not include batteries, then I would like to not make it heavier afterwards.
One reason is to just run as light as I can manage, the other is to not give the insurance an excuse if I have a claim.

My 11" motor is about the same as yours, 104kg, but I could change it for the 9" motor from the tractor at 43kg if I need to. That may require some additional gear reduction though, so diminishing returns.

If the weight just won't come close to 550kg then I want the option to just change the rear end back to a trike as I have 1000kg to work with then.

That is part of the reason for relocating the motor at the front with a prop shaft drive.
Everything ahead of the rear suspension stays the same in either setup.


----------



## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

*Re: EVan-Tricycle*

You should be able to do it for 550kg

My 710Kg included a chassis that was at least 60Kg heavier than necessary
and a "Competition Certified" roll-cage - 30Kg?

Changing the motor to a 9 inch and just being a bit careful should get down there,

Probably won't have to change the gearing - with mine I am 55% on the rear and its pretty good
I think 700amps will let me spin the rear tires on tarmac

I used Subaru parts - yours are probably a bit lighter


----------



## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

*Re: EVan-Tricycle*

I have MGB axles and wire wheels, that adds up to a lot of weight. I could invest in alloy wheels if it came to it.

I'd be looking at direct drive to a 3.9:1 axle with 21" diameter rubber.

I'm visiting my Mum in law this weekend so I will get some photos up next week.


----------



## Dave Koller (Nov 15, 2008)

*Re: EVan-Tricycle*

I'm still "lurking" here Wood.....


----------



## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

*Re: EVan-Tricycle*



Dave Koller said:


> I'm still "lurking" here Wood.....


Good to know!
I am trying to lurk less and build more.


----------



## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

*Re: EVan-Tricycle*



Woodsmith said:


> ...I'm visiting my Mum in law this weekend so I will get some photos up next week.


Hurry up!


----------



## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

*Re: EVan-Tricycle*



toddshotrods said:


> Hurry up!


OK, OK, I'm home now!

The first two photos are of the revised trike layout with the motor behind the front axle cross member. The BMW K100 bevel box is on the rear chassis cross member and can be rigidly bolted there with a shaft drive direct from the motor. A chain drive will take drive to the rear wheel and the swing arm will pivot on the same axis as the bevel box.

Pros:
Simplifies the rear end
Makes it narrower
Saves cost as a 57t 10B-2 sprocket isn't needed, just need a cheaper 28t on the bevel box
No vehicle weight issue up to 1500kg plus batteries 

Cons:
Puts more weight over the front axle
Batteries need to straddle to rear wheel to improve weight distribution
Bevel box is of unknown strength when attached to an 11" motor





The third photo shows the MGB in place. It could go another 12" further back to replicate the MGB wheel base but I may need to compromise a little as the rear spring hangers would push the overall length close to, or over, the 4m maximum length. I could change the springs for shorter ones or just reduce the wheel base. That rear chassis cross member will need to be moved.

I put the Lada Niva transfer box there as I found the MGB axle uses the same drive flange pattern as the Lada! That would give me a two speed transmission and the input shaft to the transfer box would be a direct fit to the 9" motor from the tractor! (That may mean the tractor might get the 11" motor and a bigger axle.....)

The forth photo shows the 11" motor mid chassis onto the Lada propshaft. It might live there or there might be a two piece propshaft putting the motor back at the front behind the axle cross member.

Direct drive to the 3.9:1 MGB axle gives 16mph per 1000rpm using the 21" diameter tyres as fitted to the front. Using the 25" diameter tyre fitted to the rear of the trike gives 19mph per 1000 rpm.

Pros:
More stable layout
Forced to keep weight down to 550kg plus batteries
Cab can be higher
Cargo bed and load can be higher
More conventional appearance
Rear suspension easier to build chassis around.

Cons:
Difficult to keep weight down to 550kgs, may need aluminium or plastics
Axle is for bolt on wheels so wheel change or conversion kit needed
Don't fancy draggin' that axle back out of the basement workshop for final build up!


It makes sense to go for four wheels if I can keep the weight down. I will need to buy six or eight cheap bathroom scales to use as wheel scales to keep an eye on the weight.


----------



## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

*Re: EVan-Tricycle*

Looks good Woody. I forgot about those bowed frame rails - love them! 

As much as I was looking forward to finally seeing Woody build a trike, I would go with the direct drive, mid-motor, setup in the last pic. It's the simplest mechanical form, and most elegant layout, IMO.

Awesome to see you back at it.


----------



## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

*Re: EVan-Tricycle*

Hi Woodsmith

You could make something like the Device,
About the same wheelbase as the Subaru - but I sit in the rear seat
I used a short propshaft so the motor went where a gearbox would go and I had a big open box to put batteries in in front of the motor


----------



## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

*Re: EVan-Tricycle*

I am committed to sitting on the front axle as I want a large area load bed for working with.

Something I am thinking about is making a crew cab for 2+2 seating, but that could be more trouble then it is worth.

Cheers Todd, I like the curves but will need to see if they get in the way now.
Having them parallel will give clear space either side for battery and tool boxes under the load bed.


----------



## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

*Re: EVan-Tricycle*

Having now got the leaf spring location bolt measurements I have two options on the chassis redesign.

1: I can sweep the rear of the chassis upwards over the axle leaving a well behind the cab to place batteries and propshaft. The motor is then placed inside the back of the cab, under the seats and a two part propshaft is used The load bed can then be placed above all this as a separate frame.


2: I can run the chassis at the same height from the back of the cab to the highest point over the axle. This makes the flat top of the chassis rails the base of a flat load bed. The motor and propshaft is as item 1 above. The batteries are then suspended under the chassis in modular pods.

In either case the load bed floor is at about 20" above the road with the rear wheels in their own fenders like a step side.

A part of me thinks that option 2 would be lighter as I won't need a separate load bed frame.

A quick calc suggests that the whole chassis frame on its own would be 90-100kg. Maybe 300-350kg for the rolling chassis leaving 200-250kg for the cab, electrics and battery boxes.


----------



## hmincr (Jan 20, 2012)

*Re: EVan-Tricycle*

Sounds to me like option #2 would work best. Bed height is the most important thing for loading and unloading. You can always fish plate the rails if they need additional support. Straight bed rails would be the easiest to work with. 

20" enough room for batteries without hanging up on the ground litter ?

Harold


----------



## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

*Re: EVan-Tricycle*

Not sure if 20" is enough yet, depends on which batteries I can afford.

If lead acid then probably plenty of space but if Lithium in tall case format then it could be more problematic.
I can afford to raise the load bed, at the design stage, to 24" if I needed to but I like the bed being as low as practical.

I guess I can start drawing up the cutting list for chassis parts and see how much of the existing stuff I can reuse.


----------



## hmincr (Jan 20, 2012)

*Re: EVan-Tricycle*

Too bad you can't get your hands on a Leaf pack or even a Volt pack. They are in modules and can lay on their sides to save room.

I have 5 Leaf modules I plan on taking out of the aluminum modules, cutting the taps, and going 20-21S 1P for my home made bicycle motorcycle. 

How much will batteries cost TO YOUR DOOR ?

Leaf and Volt batteries are not as unstable as Hobby Lipo, so, maybe, you can ship by boat ? A 16.5 Kwh Volt battery, can be bought for $3000.00 US or way less if searched hard in Salvage yards. Then, arrange hazmat shipping by boat ? What's the expected VAT in England ?


----------



## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

*Re: EVan-Tricycle*

I like Option #2 as well. It seems more practical, and expedient, for getting through the fabrication work to a rolling project.


----------



## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

*Re: EVan-Tricycle*

I don't yet know what the batteries will cost me but as I have no working budget I will have to 'wing it' a bit. 

What will happen is that I will build the whole thing without batteries and then get it road legal with a basic second hand pack of car batteries.

As the inspection weight doesn't include the pack I want to ensure that I have the flexibility to install modular battery boxes at a later date with which ever battery type I can afford at that time.

I am taking a bit of reference from the pack size of the French Goupil EV truck.
http://www.goupil-industrie.eu/

It uses two modular 24v lead packs to make 48v and, aside from the top speed of only 27mph, it has the range and capacity I am looking for.
I am thinking of making up similar 24v, or 36v, modular packs giving me the option for 48v, or 72v, in lead, or maybe more in lithium.
I have a 48v controller in the tractor that can be 'borrowed' to get it road legal, and also the 72v controllers donated from this forum some time ago.
If 72v doesn't give me 40mph then I can always increase the voltage again later with the Open Revolt.

Actually, if the Goupil went up to 40mph I would just buy one and save on all this fun building lark!


----------



## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

*Re: EVan-Tricycle*



toddshotrods said:


> I like Option #2 as well. It seems more practical, and expedient, for getting through the fabrication work to a rolling project.


That does mean losing those curved chassis rails though.


----------



## hmincr (Jan 20, 2012)

*Re: EVan-Tricycle*

A thought. Renault has an E-car in Europe. There must be other brands ?? 

Do you know anyone in the wrecked vehicle business ? I can't believe there is a demand for unknown wrecked car batteries in Europe ? There have been reports of a Volt battery bought for $1250.00 in the USA. 

Just jack those nice curved rails apart and put in a couple cross members .


----------



## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

*Re: EVan-Tricycle*



hmincr said:


> A thought. Renault has an E-car in Europe. There must be other brands ??
> 
> Do you know anyone in the wrecked vehicle business ? I can't believe there is a demand for unknown wrecked car batteries in Europe ? There have been reports of a Volt battery bought for $1250.00 in the USA.


It is down to having the ready cash while I am looking.
Not ruling it out but it will be an option when I am ready to spend out on new pack. That could be a while off yet so not going to worry about it for now.



hmincr said:


> Just jack those nice curved rails apart and put in a couple cross members .


I was just down in the workshop looking at that option just now. It was to reconsider option one of having a dropped centre to the frame and an upsweep at the rear axle. 
I am trying to save on buying more steel and figured that if I did the upsweep at the rear I could then keep the level of the load bed using much lighter steel tube.

I was debating whether to make the chassis curves wider, from 24" to 40" at the rear to match the spring eyes or to squeeze them back in to 12" to keep clear space for the modular battery packs on each side.

The difference will be the packs sitting on the curved chassis rails or hanging beside parallel ones. Hanging beside the rails will give an extra 3" of head room to play with over the top of the pack.

Of the 3"x2" chassis rails sections I have to hand, the curved rails are 100" long, but curved. The front cross member is 48" long. A short spare piece is 68" long. And a long spare piece is 124" long.

I am trying to avoid buying more until I have made best use of what I have.
I did have more lengths of it but I used them to make a bicycle frame building jig for a client.


----------



## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

*Re: EVan-Tricycle*



Woodsmith said:


> That does mean losing those curved chassis rails though.


I was trying to pretend to be practical, and give good advice. If you keep reminding me who I really am I _Todd_ will begin spewing _creative_ suggestions on how "we" can make that frame the prettiest thing on the East side of the pond!


----------



## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

*Re: EVan-Tricycle*



toddshotrods said:


> I was trying to pretend to be practical, and give good advice. If you keep reminding me who I really am I _Todd_ will begin spewing _creative_ suggestions on how "we" can make that frame the prettiest thing on the East side of the pond!


I'm trying not to loose them because I like the curves and can't afford to replace them with straight! 


Now I am wondering how lazy I am going to be.
Do I start cutting with a hacksaw or do I buy some super thin cutting discs for the angle grinder?


----------



## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

*Re: EVan-Tricycle*

The other (Todd) thing I pondered earlier was the motor.

That 11" motor has those nice feet I welded on ages ago. They are a couple of inches wider then the 12" wide part of the chassis the motor is now sitting on.

If I used the 12" motor, I had right at the very start of my EV life, that has a very narrow foot and so would nestle in between the chassis rails and also lower the propshaft angle.

There is only 10kg of weight between the two and the 12" has a built in fan whereas the 11" needs an external fan.


----------



## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

*Re: EVan-Tricycle*



Woodsmith said:


> The other (Todd) thing I pondered earlier was the motor.
> 
> That 11" motor has those nice feet I welded on ages ago. They are a couple of inches wider then the 12" wide part of the chassis the motor is now sitting on.
> 
> ...


Again, practical, and would get things moving.

I see a constant predicament I find myself in - a clashing of ideas. You started building a creative, fun, trike; but have morphed into a, still fun, but practical, truck. That's why I attempted to give practical advise, to meet the goals, for a functional work tool, that is also cool and unique.

I would pick one, practical or creative, as the guideline, make my choices on that basis, and then see how much of the other I could squeeze out of those choices.


----------



## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

*Re: EVan-Tricycle*

I am going to do my crazy stupid weight lifting thing and put the 114kg 12" motor on the chassis.


If I am not back then send someone down there with a stretcher and paramedic!


----------



## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

*Re: EVan-Tricycle*

OK, back now. 

The 12" motor is on. I had to cut out the little cross member that was in the way but that needed to go anyway.

The motor is currently rotated round 90deg as one pair of the field connections clash with the edge of the chassis.

Is it overkill?
Should I change that little MGB Salisbury axle for the bigger Land Rover Salisbury axle?


----------



## hmincr (Jan 20, 2012)

*Re: EVan-Tricycle*

Here is a link to batteries in your area. Might not help,but, something to investigate. 

http://www.elmoto.net/showthread.php?3547-FOR-SALE-EiG-packs-in-24S2P-40Ah-87-6V-configuration


----------



## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

*Re: EVan-Tricycle*



Woodsmith said:


> OK, back now.
> 
> ...Is it overkill?...


Looks perfectly reasonable to me! 





Woodsmith said:


> ...Should I change that little MGB Salisbury axle for the bigger Land Rover Salisbury axle?


What about the weight thing. Maybe a good time to assess whether this motor creates a snowball effect?

That first 20lbs, seemed like a no-brainer, but then if it requires a heavier axle, more bracing, this, that...


----------



## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

*Re: EVan-Tricycle*



hmincr said:


> Here is a link to batteries in your area. Might not help,but, something to investigate.
> 
> http://www.elmoto.net/showthread.php?3547-FOR-SALE-EiG-packs-in-24S2P-40Ah-87-6V-configuration


Thank you for that. Certainly something to bear in mind nearer the time.


toddshotrods said:


> Looks perfectly reasonable to me!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I'm joking about upgrading the axle, though I do have one sitting outside for the tractor...

What I might need to do is either find a way to drop the 11" motor into the chassis or cut those nice sculptural feet off it and redesign the motor mount.

Or perhaps just use the 9" motor and nestle that completely between the chassis rails.


----------



## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

*Re: EVan-Tricycle*

12" motor is back on the shelf.

I placed the 11" motor upside down. I can weld on a couple of tabs to bolt it down to the chassis. I could use the foot mount to bolt to the underside of the cab.


----------



## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

*Re: EVan-Tricycle*

I finally got a whole day to myself in the workshop!

I was feeling really down yesterday and Arch suggested I do something fun today to lift me out of it. Good call that.

I decided to start setting up the rear end of the chassis and so I made a cross member to go at the leading end of the leaf springs. It needed a cut out for the propshaft to drop into when the suspension is at full drop so I found a template to draw around and cut out out a curve from the 3"x3"x1/8" box section. I then beat a strip of 1/8" sheet to fit the curve and welded it in. There was a little distortion but due to the weakening of adding the cut out it was easy to straighten up.

I then 'undid' the curved chassis members. The offside one straightened nicely with just a very slight ripple along its length. The nearside one refused to behave. It stubbornly remained 1" out of alignment and forcing it just pulled the other side out with it.
As it was only tack welded in I took it out and turned it over but then it just forced the chassis to out in the other direction.

In the end I decided to just change it and used the spare 10' length that was going rusty outside.
That sorted in in 20 minutes what I had wasted 2 hours on earlier!

With the motor placed back on the chassis I looked at the propshaft options.
I could still have a mid mounted motor with the single propshaft I have or I could have the motor under the cab and buy a purpose made two piece propshaft. I have used an enormously heavy pillow block bearing just to indicate a two piece propshaft in the photo.

I think I will need to make the rear of the chassis, the section raised over the leaf springs, as a separate unit to properly weld on later. The overall chassis will be over the limit of length I can get out of the basement. Also as it will be heavy I might as well make it in two parts, maybe with some locating tabs, to weld properly when it is outside.

I will need to think about a covered car port or similar to store it in for the build outside.


----------



## tylerwatts (Feb 9, 2012)

Alfred can I suggest thinking of using trailing arms to the axle and coil over shocks without the big structure needed at the baton support the leafs? I'd use a landrover design personally with triangular pivot to the top of the diff and 2 trailing arms one each side to the leaf mount points. Then the shock can bolt to the bottom of the leaf point and a simple triangular frame leading back and up that will also carry bodywork/load bed/wheel arch. Simpler and lighter.


----------



## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

*Re: EVan-Tricycle*

Thanks Tyler. 
The thought had crossed my mind for dealing with later. I was researching air springs last night in anticipation of such a change.

The other benefit would be adjusting for ride height and the large variation in load to unladen weight over the rear axle.

The option is strong though, and not difficult to impliment.


----------



## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

*Re: EVan-Tricycle*

Coming, in part, from what's called Pro Touring, which means making old musclecars handle like modern sports cars, there's some geometry to solve to get a conversion like that to handle well. IIRC, the leaf spring mounts as lower links puts the rear roll center too high - I'm not sure on that, but that's what came to mind. You would have a little flexibility in the frame mount positioning. I know there were a few guys that did a lot of work trying to find a good setup and, at the time, I was paying close attention because I had a Camaro with parallel leafs...

In your case, since you're not trying to handle like a Lotus, it's just a matter of making sure the rear end doesn't fight the front, especially under a load.

I was also building the Inhaler at the time, and that whole issue is what made me choose the 78-88 General Motors "G-body" rear suspension. I started off with a decent setup, that requires almost no support aft of the rear axle center line, no lateral linkage for positioning, and has a ton of aftermarket support and DIY tinkering. I got tired of spending hours chasing numbers on paper...


----------



## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

*Re: EVan-Tricycle*

Thanks Todd, I am not really concerned with sporty handling at all, unless it just happens to be there....

I am cracking on with building the chassis to suit the leaf springs as I have them and they will be cheaper to get running.

I can change to coils later if I have the need. I think in that case I would work with using a set of front coil springs so that there is only one component type. Also if I find an air spring replacement the same unit would fit front and rear.


So after another weekend with my M-i-L I have got on with a bit more chassis building.

Making best use of the lengths of steel I have I carefully measured and cut the 69" length of box section to the correct angle for the mitre, and then using a short off cut for the sloping piece of chassis, I made up two chassis legs over the rear axle.

I tack welded that onto the cross member and then added another cross member in above and ahead of the axle.
I will have two more short bits of steel to join from the main long chassis rails to that cross member later.

To make sure the chassis is true and level I used a digital angle gauge to check everything is level and at the correct angles relative to the rest of the chassis. Then all the diagonals were checked too.


----------



## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

*Re: EVan-Tricycle*



Woodsmith said:


> Thanks Todd, I am not really concerned with sporty handling at all, unless it just happens to be there.......


I just meant safe handling manners, not ripping around the twisties! 

Looking good Woody!


----------



## Dave Koller (Nov 15, 2008)

*Re: EVan-Tricycle*

Thanks for all the pics - Woody! Keep it up! Just glad to see you back being a great Maker of things


----------



## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

*Re: EVan-Tricycle*



toddshotrods said:


> I just meant safe handling manners, not ripping around the twisties!
> 
> Looking good Woody!


Thanks, I guess one reason for replicating the MGB set up closely is to see what it does handle like before messing with it too much.

For a 40mph truck I am more concerned about traction and a little comfort. Not sure about the comfort thing though given I will be sitting on top of the front lever arm dampers! 
(OT: Did you get my email, Todd?)



Dave Koller said:


> Thanks for all the pics - Woody! Keep it up! Just glad to see you back being a great Maker of things


Thank you.

I am really enjoying being able to freely pop into the workshop every now and again to create something. Still no money to throw at it but I now have a good stash of parts to use up.

A part of it is also a little procrastinating over the wedding arrangements. Only a month to go! Nothing important in the great scheme of things but finding readings and sorting out a music play list don't really matter as much as being stress free and happy.




In other news: Arch's work truck, @BerylTheEV on Twitter, is on her last legs.
She now only has intermittent ability to maintain 10mph on the flat and battery sag after a few yards is enough to cause the controller to cut out.
Needing a new pack, motor brushes, replacement solid tyres, and a lot of welding means that she is no longer economical to keep in service.
St Nicholas Fields is now using a hired Goupil EV truck.

I am going to transfer Beryl's rear load body, split to make it 8" wider, onto a new Goupil replacement vehicle, if/when it arrives, and then I will purchase Beryl's remains for parting out.

I suspect I will use Beryl's cab on my truck, adjusted a bit to fit my heated windscreen, and then keep the axles, motor and controller for another project.


----------



## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

*Re: EVan-Tricycle*

No photos for this bit as it wouldn't show much.

Previously as as trike I wanted the CoG as low as possible, now as a quad that is less important. What that means is that I could give myself a little more ground clearance at the front bumper.

I removed the front axle cross member and cut a little wedge out of the chassis rails and tilted the front end up 3.5deg. That's not much but raises the bumper 2". That also meant having to adjust the steering rack mounts to tilt the forward section of column up and equivalent amount.

The cut in the chassis rails falls inside the axle cross member and means the rails now follow the same angle as the underside of the cross member. That will make it easier to install an under tray to smooth out the underneath of the chassis, mainly for keeping cables and plumbing clean of road muck more so then aerodynamics.


----------



## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

*Re: EVan-Tricycle*



Woodsmith said:


> Thanks, I guess one reason for replicating the MGB set up closely is to see what it does handle like before messing with it too much.
> 
> For a 40mph truck I am more concerned about traction and a little comfort. Not sure about the comfort thing though given I will be sitting on top of the front lever arm dampers! ...


Yeah, you'll feel a little more than being centered between the _axles_. 

I notice, and sometimes stress, the handling thing because I have driven production cars where the factory engineers flubbed the geometry. On dry roads, driven normally, everything is fine. All it takes is a damp, oily, road and the right driver input to find them.

Example: 84-87 Fieros have pro-dive front suspension, pro-squat rear suspension geometry, and rear bump steer - all from the factory, right off the production line!  The combination means your rear wheels can suddenly turn the car in an unexpected direction - they call it snap steering and I have personally experienced it. Old VWs with the swing axles, and Corvairs, also come to mind. All it takes is for one end to have a different idea of where it wants to go.

I'm not posting all that so much for you Woodster, as for the lurkers who might follow in your footsteps...






Woodsmith said:


> ...(OT: Did you get my email, Todd?)...


I did, and I have been trying to reply... Crazy couple/few weeks here, but it's coming.


----------



## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

*Re: EVan-Tricycle*

Yes, there is enough suspension tuning stuff for MGBs that I can make adjustments afterwards if necessary. Keeping to a good factory set up and dimensions is a sensible way to start any scratch build vehicle that isn't designed by a knowledgeable and trained expert, or one with much real world experience. 
The weight distribution is not MGB and so that will have an effect, however, I am hoping that any effects will be better then a load carrier where the load is over a single wheel. 



I started welding up some of the chassis over the rear axle this afternoon. I figured that part will not change much now, and will need to be structurally stable as a detached half chassis for getting it out of the basement workshop.
I will cut it back off the rest of the chassis later on and turn it over to weld the under sides and then fit suspension mounting points.


I took two photos, one of a weld bead and another of the magnetic field around a welding cable, demonstrating that I really need to sweep the floor more often!


----------



## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

*Re: EVan-Tricycle*



Woodsmith said:


> ...I took two photos, one of a weld bead and another of the magnetic field around a welding cable, demonstrating that I really need to sweep the floor more often!


Nice welding, and your magnetic field is super cool!


----------



## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

*Re: EVan-Tricycle*

I have sent a lot of time looking at the chassis and motor. Just looking and thinking, designing my way through all the options.

In the end I made some new feet for the motor.
I cut some angle iron and beat and bashed it into a more acute angle to fit the curve of the motor. I then welded them in place. The old nicely blended in feet will be cut off as they no longer suit what I need.

To secure the motor I will cut a bracket to bolt onto the DE and that will be welded to the chassis in the final position for the motor.


I have also been thinking about the rest of the backbone chassis. I think I will fold a thin sheet of steel to box the chassis rails forming an enclosed 12" square cross section enclosing the motor and all the electrics. 
The motor will probably sit at the rear of the chassis with a short 24" prop, as I happen to have one.

Between the cab and the motor will be the rest of the electrics. 
Under the cab seats will be the 12v Aux battery, then a DC-DC converter, then the 72V Curtis controller (with space for a Sol Jr update), then the reversing switch from the milkfloat, then a cooling fan drawing filtered air over all the electrics and blowing through the motor from CE to DE. The air will leave the chassis where the propshaft protrudes to the axle.

The top of the chassis box will have access hatches to install the controller, electrics, and the motor from above.


The battery boxes will be completely detachable, one (or two) on each side at 36v each.

At the bottom edge of the chassis rails, on the outside, will be a rail. The battery box will hang on the rail at the bottom edge and the top edge will bolt through from inside the chassis box. An opening in the side of the chassis box will coincide with an Anderson plug in the battery box so that it can be plugged in.

I am planning for the battery boxes to be identical and the chassis to be able to accommodate four of them, two on each side, if needed. Otherwise two will be tool box lockers instead.

The pick up bed will likely be a plywood construction, or open steel mesh.

I am getting close to the stage where I will need to take the chassis up the stairs and outside before it becomes too big and heavy to carry out.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

*Re: EVan-Tricycle*

I committed and cut the nice sculptural foot off the motor!

I'm hoping I don't end up putting it all back again.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

*Re: EVan-Tricycle*

Looking good Woody.  I have been facing similar decisions with Scrape, looking at things I created previously for it that don't really serve the intended purpose now, and telling myself "just get over it already!"


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

*Re: EVan-Tricycle*

Not done anything since last post except sweep the grinding dust from the floor.

It would seem that I might not get the cab I was hoping for.
I have been negotiating with Arch's boss to acquire the cab off her work truck, Beryl, as it is being 'decommissioned'.
However, an artist blacksmith is hoping to convert Beryl into a sculpture for them and that will mean keeping her cab.

So I have now reverted back to planning to build a cab from scratch and pondering the wood vs steel thing again.

However, I just watched Mythbusters today and they made a boat out of duct tape on a wire frame.....

You can see where this is going can't you...
Light weight, waterproof, easy....


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## grayballs (Aug 27, 2008)

*Re: EVan-Tricycle*

However, I just watched Mythbusters today and they made a boat out of duct tape on a wire frame...

OK... Now I'm interested!


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

*Re: EVan-Tricycle*



I am just wondering how much weight I can save to keep that 11" motor and wire wheels.









It looks the most like the old fabric covered bi planes and airships but saves on doping and stuff.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

*Re: EVan-Tricycle*

I have a headache today and I wanted to try and manage it before I go out tonight.
I am at the Manchester Veg People's Crowdfunded van launch, having helped to fund it.

Anyway, I wanted to figure out the brake pedal, as that was always going to be a little awkward. I need to have the brake pedal on one side of the chassis rail and the master cylinder on the other side. That meant that any rotating shaft I used needed some sort of bearing in the chassis and some sort of splined, slack free, drive to a lever on each side so that the bearing can be changed if there was wear.

Having worked out whereabouts the pivot point would be I looked around for suitable splined, or keyed shafts I could use with some sort of bush or bearing. Then I caught sight of an old bicycle bottom bracket shaft in a box of scraps!

A quick measure of a bottom bracket on a scrap mountain bike rear triangle and then the hacksaw came out, in true RatRod style.

I will need to clean up the cut bits of tube and then weld it in place but the suspension hinge brackets tightly straddle the chassis for now. Then I can cut and weld the cranks to the right length and weld a plate on for the pedal rubber. I might still use an old bike pedal but it depends on how safe it feels under foot.
I also want to put a duplicate brake pedal on the right of the steering column so that I can brake with my right foot conventionally or use my left foot for better slow speed control.

The left crank will operate a push rod to a master cylinder under the seats where it will be out of the way but still accessible.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

*Re: EVan-Tricycle*

Having decided on the brake pedal, made from a bicycle crank and bottom bracket, I asked Arch to check if she could reach it from the driver's seat. She could, but needed to lean forward a bit for the steering wheel.

That means that I could either have a fixed seat base with a seat back that adjusts forwards a bit, or I could have the steering column adjustable. I think I will aim for adjusting the steering column, as that would be simple with a UJ at the bottom end.


Today I decided to make up a windscreen surround using some 20x3mm angle. The idea is that it will save me having the heavy and fragile windscreen in the workshop to decide on the position and angle of it. Also the frame will form a part of the cab structure to take the screen when the cab is built.

I might need to stretch the frame a little bit though as it is more snug on the glass then I intended, my mistake. I assumed the frame was symmetrical but having measured the length of the sides and then cut the steel I found that the windscreen is not symmetrical. The centre line of the narrow top edge of the screen is an inch over to the right of the centre of the bottom of the screen!

The 'bodging' to make it the right shape lost me a few too many mm in the height. I can cut and weld it bigger but I also ran out of welding wire!


Anyway, I can place some adjustable fixings in the workshop ceiling and suspend the screen frame over the cab end of the chassis until I am happy with the placing and available view.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

*Re: EVan-Tricycle*

I have hung the windscreen frame in place, centred over the chassis and tilted back at 60deg from horizontal. I think this is the same angle as a Land Rover screen so I should be able to use Land Rover Series 3 door tops.

The screen looks HUGE!


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

I just spent a couple of hours in the workshop, chasing away the black dog that has been pestering me for the last few weeks.


I dug out the milk float reversing switch I bought a while back and reassembled it. It took a while to remember how it all went back together but it did in the end.

Not sure if I will use it or invest in some costly contactors. I guess that depends on what happens next following an idea I posted in the tractor thread.



Woodsmith said:


> I had a thought.
> 
> As I need to do a partial rebuild of the tractor, and replace the batteries, and as I will want to 'borrow' the pack to get my truck running and legal, and as I will have a new project using the running gear from 'Beryl', Arch's work EV truck, and as I have been planning on quick release swapable battery packs, I could make up a small battery and controller unit.
> 
> ...


If I make a 48v 40-60ah battery box, that also contained the controller and reversing contactors, etc. from the tractor, then I wouldn't need anything on the truck at all, it would be 'plug and play'. The tractor controller doesn't run without the reversing contactors in place as they are a part of the control functions of the controller.

The initial idea is to see if 48v would give me the performance I want in the truck, regardless of range. If it does then I can leave it at that and share the pack between the two or three vehicles, eventually increasing the capacity of the pack.

If not then I have a 72v controller to use and I can make up a 72v 40-60ah battery box. The 72v controller doesn't care much for control as it only has throttle pot connections. That means I can save on expensive contactors and just use the milk float reversing switch.


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## poprock (Apr 29, 2010)

Hi Woody. My way of dealing with Blackdog is to spend as much time as possible on your favourite activity. We may seem to lack balance to family & friends but the saying " all work and no play makes Jack a dull boy " applies. The EV grin after each modification is the best medication. My wife is very supportive, as I am sure Arch is too.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

Thank you Poprock. 

Arch is very supportive and there has never been any concerns from her about my time spent on 'other' activities. Quite often it is the 'other' things that allow me to work and create without the pressure of life getting to me too much.

I have to limit the amount of time I can spend in the workshop working on the truck now as Arch and I get married very soon. I still have to make a three tier cake stand and I really only have tomorrow to do it as next week is my contingency time for everything else!


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

I am back!

I had a very happy wedding day and quite a lot of time with the black dog though the two are unrelated.
Arch has finally moved in with me, three weeks after tying the knot and I have finally shaken off the black dog for now. It had gotten quite bad for me for a while.

Then my laptop screen died and after many abortive attempts to repair it on the cheap I am now working with a desktop monitor.

Anyway, two bits of EV activity to report.

The electric tractor has been evicted from living in the house and in my trailer. It is now residing outside under a tarp, having cleared space at the side of the house and moved a load of stuff to get it there. The house is full of bikes and work stuff and the trailer is needed again for doing paid work. That happened today in between rain storms and I had to push the tractor all the way as the batteries are well and truly dead.

While it was raining I also made the front leaf spring hangers for the rear of the truck.

The spring bush is 55mm wide and so I found some 60mm x 3mm steel box section and cut that to fit.

I will need to turn the rear chassis over to weld the underside before I can weld the hangers on the chassis. I will then plate over them to give extra support and to give extra thickness at the bolt holes.

Very soon I will need to move the whole chassis outside, in sections, before it becomes too big to get up the stairs!


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## samwichse (Jan 28, 2012)

But... how did the three tier cake stand turn out?


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Back to the honey-do list. 

I like the hangers.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

samwichse said:


> But... how did the three tier cake stand turn out?


Very well, thank you.
We will be using it as a display stand for Arch's craft products.

I also did a brief write up for the Recycle For Greater Manchester Blog


All photos copyright Charlotte Barnes.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

toddshotrods said:


> Back to the honey-do list.
> 
> I like the hangers.


Thanks Todd. It feels good to be back making stuff for fun, though I am enjoying the paid work too.

The honey-do list has been good too. Arch says " I could really use a ..... making for ...." and I go and do it. It is all related to her moving in and getting her craft business started so I make it a relatively high priority.

Getting the trailer back, too, is going to make it possible for us to take on paid work installing big planters for the local IncrEdible Edible group. Previously, as volunteers we used two cars and did several journeys carrying railway sleeper sized timber. Now we have quotes in for three planters per job I need teh trailer to transport everything in one journey and also use the trailer as a mobile workspace and tool store on site.

This is another reason for wanting to get on with working on the truck when I can. The truck will be able to transport all the materials and tools for the jobs and save using the trailer. All the jobs are within a 5 mile radius of home.


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## Dave Koller (Nov 15, 2008)

Happy Happy !! You guys Look GREAT!!!!!! 
All the best........


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## samwichse (Jan 28, 2012)

That cake stand would right at home in the wing cord of the spruce goose. Love it


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

Thanks guys. 

I cut off the rear chassis again and turned it over to finish welding the joints. Then I welded on the spring hangers and put the chassis back in place.
The bolt holes lined up perfectly, as did the springs and the axle.

I had to swap the dampers and mounting plates left to right as I had welded the cross member a little too far back for them to fit in ahead of the axle.  I don't think the axle will mind them being behind it.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Love those dampers!


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

I finally got around to making the rear swing shackle hangers for the leaf springs.

I quickly turned some thick wall tube to nearly the right bore and then cut and drilled some 70x40mm box section to make the pads to weld them to.

The bore of the tube can now be reamed out to a clean finished size for the rubber bushes.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Woodsmith said:


> I finally got around to making the rear swing shackle hangers for the leaf springs...


I like those. Any specific reason you didn't turn the inner diameter? Works just as well either way, I'm just curious.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

toddshotrods said:


> I like those. Any specific reason you didn't turn the inner diameter? Works just as well either way, I'm just curious.


My lathe is on its last legs.

It rattles and bangs and both the tool holder and the main shaft bearings have play that prevents smooth work with anything other then very short tools and small cuts.
The boring bar just couldn't cope with the depth, 2", without rattling about.

As it doesn't need to be perfectly circular I will hand work it smooth to suit the rubber bush, or buy a 22mm drill to drill through.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Woodsmith said:


> My lathe is on its last legs.
> 
> It rattles and bangs and both the tool holder and the main shaft bearings have play that prevents smooth work with anything other then very short tools and small cuts.
> The boring bar just couldn't cope with the depth, 2", without rattling about.
> ...


That would be a pretty specific reason! Poor old fella.  (The lathe, not you! )


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

I'd like a bigger lathe but anything bigger won't be able to get down into the basement workshop.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

Well, it took a while but I finally got around to doing something with the rear spring hangers.

I bought a 22mm drill to ream out the bores as that was easiest.

Then I had to decide on a rear cross member and get that welded on and then weld the hangers underneath.
I weighed a section of rolled 3x2" channel and then a section of 3x2" box. The box section was significantly lighter!

Next will be the dampers.

I am undecided about the lever arm dampers at the moment. The main issue is that one has a smaller arc of rotation then the other. The one with the greater arc will bolt onto the chassis but the one with less doesn't reach.
I can't see why they should be different as the movement starts from the same point with the spring compressed but one allows more spring extension then the other.

I am wondering if telescopic ones might be easier.


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## Joey (Oct 12, 2007)

I love the recent progress you are showing. The welding looks fantastic. I'm really enjoying your project. Congratulations on getting married.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

Joey said:


> I love the recent progress you are showing. The welding looks fantastic. I'm really enjoying your project. Congratulations on getting married.


Thank you. 
Marrying Arch is the best thing to happen to me, she is the ideal and perfect wife for my life style, moods, and mechanical passions.



It is good to get back into the project in between bits of paid and unpaid work I can do now.

I have no idea how the project will pan out in the long run as there is no money at all for it. I can manage the bulk of the build using scraps but I will need 'real' money to get it tested and legal and then to buy a lithium pack for it.


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## Dave Koller (Nov 15, 2008)

Woodsmith said:


> Thank you.
> Marrying Arch is the best thing to happen to me, she is the ideal and perfect wife for my life style, moods, and mechanical passions.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

I had to make a decision recently.

I am going to extend my box trailer to be a mobile workshop for my work with the local IncrEdible Edible group, building and installing vegetable planters. This is paid work so worth the investment.

The plan was initially to increase the height from 4' to 6'. But then that lead me to ponder also increasing the length from 10' to 13' so that I can use the trailer to transport the truck when it is built, and before it is road legal.

However, the trailer is only 56" wide and 58" between the tyres.
The wire wheels on the truck make it 60" wide!

To reduce the width I have bought a set of five Rostyle MGB wheels and a scrap MGB front axle for the bolt on hubs. That brings the width down to 57". The rear axle is already bolt on and I was going to buy splined hubs for it but now I have paid a lot less for the wheels and the front axle.

The wire wheel look will be no more. 

I will spend the next month so extending the trailer, which will then also be big enough to be a mobile covered garage for the truck when it is not in use for work.
That means I can then bring the truck out of the basement and fully weld the chassis. The truck can then live in the trailer, and be rolled out to work on it.

I might sell all the wire wheels and front splined hubs, but I might just hang on to them in case I change back when the truck is legal and no longer needs transporting.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

I have been testing the fit of those 16 lovely 60Ah lithium cells, that were gifted to me by a stranger, for the tractor.

They fit so well within the chassis rails and there is space for 8 more to make up the full 72v for the truck.

I tested the fit in two configurations, 6x4 all within the chassis rails and 4x6 on top of the chassis rails.

I think I like then within the rails, looks neater. 

I wonder if that 34"x8"x10" configuration would suit the tractor?
The 24"x12"x10" one would fit easily to make the tractor 72v too.


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## DMA (Jan 7, 2013)

Looks great! I do like the 'inline' version too. 

I'm sure you've already thought all this out, but I was thinking, if you do go for another 8 cells to up the voltage to 72v at some stage, would you consider making 6-cell or 8-cell 'cartridges' (depending on weight/size, of course) to contain a standalone removable 12v or 18v sub-pack? Something similar to how APC USPs are built - they have small SLA batteries making 48v removable cartridges (each being 4S2P of 12v SLA):









These are just for the batteries - the controller etc. are standalone and separated. Having these contain 6 cells at 12v nominal would make them easier to move, I guess, and the 12v seems more 'standard' than 8 cells / 18v.

Related story: I got an old APC Smart-UPS XL 3000VA RM and corresponding 3U auxiliary battery pack from a building that was being demolished post earthquake here in Christchurch (salvaged it from up 4 flights of narrow dimly lit stairs with a sack barrow, over 110kg, fun fun, both ended up as being dead in the end!). I love the way the 48v cartridges are constructed and modular - if I was to have swappable packs I'd probably do something similar in design.  Here's a video of the example replacement pack with 2P48v cartridges, to give you an idea of how it's constructed:


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

Yes, I had pondered 24v packs. I think size wise 8 cells would be manageable and could drop in place in either vehicle. An initial 'dummy' pack would fill the space in the truck until another 8 cells were acquired.

Maybe each pack would have it's own 24v charger built in.


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## DMA (Jan 7, 2013)

Woodsmith said:


> Yes, I had pondered 24v packs. I think size wise 8 cells would be manageable and could drop in place in either vehicle. An initial 'dummy' pack would fill the space in the truck until another 8 cells were acquired.
> 
> Maybe each pack would have it's own 24v charger built in.


Maths fail on my part! 6 cells would give 18v, not 12v and 8 24v, not 18. Sigh. 

And yes, there was some discussion here at the Chch EV group on using multiple smaller chargers for sub-pack charging instead of a big one for the whole pack. Price seems to increase quite drastically the higher the voltage. Although I'm not sure I'd go down to individual cell level charging...

I'll be curious to see how you setup the individual 'cartridge' (24v) charging.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

I like the slim, neat, between the the rails, version as well Woody. The 24v sub-packs with integral chargers sounds nice.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

Thanks guys, I will start looking out for affordable 24v charging. I could probably get away with a larger Ebike charger given I don't need a quick charge on the truck or the tractor.

The battery boxes will need to be a really snug fit. I reckon I could save a little space between the chassis rails by allowing the ribs on the cell cases to interlock.


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## Dave Koller (Nov 15, 2008)

toddshotrods said:


> I like the slim, neat, between the the rails, version as well Woody.



Me too! 


(I HAVE TO ADD THIS TO MAKE THE MESSAGE LONG ENOUGH TO SEND....)


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

Dave Koller said:


> Me too!
> 
> 
> (I HAVE TO ADD THIS TO MAKE THE MESSAGE LONG ENOUGH TO SEND....)


I get caught by that sometimes. 

On my other forum it would be a real pita as some of our replies to each other can be as little as an '!' or a single smillie.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

Hello!

I have been busy with life and work and stuff.

Anyway, I decided to take a little time out to revisit the truck.
The original plan was to have a truck that would have an 8'x4' pick-up bed behind the cab. However, whichever way I looked at it weight was a problem and I couldn't be sure that it would be below the 550kg maximum weight.

So, a rethink (just using what I have).
Change from rear leaf springs to coil springs.
Shorten the load bed and use a trailer instead.
Narrow the chassis to reduce steel use.

I am currently still exploring the cab location, ahead of the front axle or behind it. 

Meanwhile I have reduced the wheelbase from 91" down to 72".
Removing the need to leaf springs allowed the rear of the chassis to be shortened a lot.
That gave me the option of a 4' long load bed with the cab behind the front axle, or a 6' long load bed with the cab ahead of the front axle.
The overall length reduces a lot too. From 12'6" down to 10' with the cab ahead of the axle, and 8' with the cab behind the axle. An 8' long 'shortie' truck is so tempting! 
Using coil springs at the rear allowed the chassis to be narrowed from 40" to 24", with the springs outboard, That has reduced the weight or the rear section of chassis considerably!

I am planning on converting a spare MGB front suspension wishbone into an 'A' frame for the top of the rear axle, and to use some spare MGB wishbone arms to make a pair of radius arms. That means all the rear suspension uses the same wishbone bushes. I might even use a front anti-roll bar at the rear too.

I will have to look at investing in a pair of telescopic dampers for the rear as they will be lighter then the lever arm units.

As for the trailer aspect, I was thinking of using a short 4' trailer on a standard ball hitch, but set up to allow long loads to overhang the front of the trailer and over the truck's pick-up bed, a bit like a semi trailer but not if you see what I mean. I will have to design for a maximum nose weight on the hitch.

That would work great with the 4' pick up bed. The truck would be 8' long and the trailer 6' long giving a 14' combination, that is about the length of my car!
With the 6' load bed I can just have 8' long stuff overhanging the rear and not bother with a trailer.

So to photos!


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## Dave Koller (Nov 15, 2008)

I'm still here lurking LOL!


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

Dave Koller said:


> I'm still here lurking LOL!


So am I. 


It has been so long since I actually logged on and did anything that I can't remember what to do. Not much good as Admin at the mo.


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## DMA (Jan 7, 2013)

Looking good Woody! Glad you managed to get some time on the truck project again. 



Woodsmith said:


> So am I.
> 
> 
> It has been so long since I actually logged on and did anything that I can't remember what to do. Not much good as Admin at the mo.




Me three! Apart from the Admin part...  I'm freeing up quite a bit of time 1 month from now, so hopefully you'll see some "Bleuie" posts shortly after then...


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

That looks good Woody!


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

Thanks.

I am going to have to source some wire wheel hubs for the back axle, or some very cheap alloy wheels.

I spent some time removing the old 165 70 14 tyres from the steel Rostyle wheels thinking I would fit another pair of smaller 155 65 14 tyres. I weighed the wheels. A Rostyle wheel weighs nearly 2kg more then a wire wheel!

I know, I know, over four wheels that is probably less then the weight of doughnuts I can eat in a day, but the inspection doesn't weigh me.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Woodsmith said:


> Thanks.
> 
> I am going to have to source some wire wheel hubs for the back axle, or some very cheap alloy wheels.
> 
> ...


Use aluminum wheels for the inspection, and switch back to your wires afterwards.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

toddshotrods said:


> Use aluminum wheels for the inspection, and switch back to your wires afterwards.


I think if I could get a nice set of narrow (5" wide) alloys cheaply then I would stick with them, they would be a huge weight saving.

The annoyance is that I have one bolt on axle and one wire wheel axle.

Unless I use the heavy Rostyle steel wheels I will have to spend money!


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

Another view of how I am thinking of setting out the rear suspension.

I am also looking at independent rear suspensions set ups on Ebay, just in case I find a cheap set up I can use instead.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

Woodsmith said:


> Thanks.
> 
> I am going to have to source some wire wheel hubs for the back axle, or some very cheap alloy wheels.
> 
> I spent some time removing the old 165 70 14 tyres from the steel Rostyle wheels thinking I would fit another pair of smaller 155 65 14 tyres. I weighed the wheels. A Rostyle wheel weighs nearly 2kg more then a wire wheel!


Problem solved!

Yesterday I drove down to Oxford to pick up another MGB axle with wire wheel hubs.
It was worth the 180 mile drive down there as I got it for £50 when they are usually at £250+. Even just a pair of hubs would have been £60 each.

The axle also has history, it is painted silver with chrome parking brake levers and was fitted to the 1967 motor show car. It has only covered 7000 miles!

The seller advertised that the axle has a whine that would need an experienced person to adjust the diff to sort it out. I guess that is why no one else bid on it at £50.
I asked him, when I picked it up, how bad the whine was. He said it was not really good enough for a concours show car! Oh dear! 
The seller was an elderly gent who worked for MG/Rover for 40 years until his retirement 12 years ago.

It has less play and backlash then the axle I have and I guess maybe much better condition inside. 

I also picked up another pair of used 155 65 14 and had them fitted to wire wheels so the axle can sit at its correct ride height.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

Here's a link to the original listing for the axle.
Ebay list.


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## DMA (Jan 7, 2013)

Well done - and well worth the 180 mile trip indeed! It's great when you get good deals like this, isn't it


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## tylerwatts (Feb 9, 2012)

Alfred, dare I ask how you got that thing into your basement?!


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

tylerwatts said:


> Alfred, dare I ask how you got that thing into your basement?!


The axle? I laid it onto the stairs and rolled it end over end to the bottom. On the level I can pick it up and carry it. 

I did a bit of machining today.

The rear radius arms will use the same V8 front wishbone bushes so it made sense to use the spare rusty wishbone pivot for it.
I cut off the bolt lugs and put it on the lathe to turn off the rust and bring it to an even 20mm diameter.

I will make brackets with 20mm holes to weld it to and then weld to the chassis.

The other slightly less rusty pivot will be used for the Rear axle A frame over the diff.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

tylerwatts said:


> Alfred, dare I ask how you got that thing into your basement?!





Woodsmith said:


> The axle? I laid it onto the stairs and rolled it end over end to the bottom. On the level I can pick it up and carry it.
> ...


The Woody way!


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

Hi guys,

Not been on the forum for a while due to being rather tied up in real life and stuff I'm doing for others.

Anyway, I thought I'd just pop in here and mention another little gift towards my projects.

Today I picked up a couple of 320W 37.5V nominal solar PV panels. Together they will give me enough voltage to set up a solar charger for the 48V lithium pack.
The panels are 1mx2m in size so will go on the house roof. Then I will drop a cable down with a breaker and open voltage to the ground floor where I set up a charging point.
Not sure how to make it work yet but I am guessing that if I open the 240Vac charger I have I may be able to find a point where I can measure a dc voltage output from the transformer and then build a regulator that will supply that straight into the charger circuit. If that works then the charger can be solar connected and still be portable for mains ac connection too.


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## Dave Koller (Nov 15, 2008)

Good idea and good to hear from you !


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