# type motor/clutch for chain drive



## mastiff1 (Nov 3, 2009)

I am building a 3 wheeled EV motorcycle married to a quad w/metro car parts. I want to use a chain drive the rear wheel. Does anyone have info on what type motor could be used and if I would need a torque converter or if a multispeed motor might work. I would like to utilize a used forklift drive motor and attach motor cycle chain drive or maybe transmission to the EV motor drive shaft but don't know if trans could take the instant torque. I must admit I am brand new to EV power and any info is appreciated.


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## order99 (Sep 8, 2008)

I am not even close to an expert on this-hopefully they'll showup momentarily-but I have a few questions:

I don't under stand '3 wheeled EV motorcycle married to a quad w/metro car parts'(i'm easily confused...). Since you want to run the rear wheel i'm assuming you aren't using the Metro's axle (as it has Front-wheel drive). Are you building a Three-wheeled Tadpole custom platform from Quad parts and adapting a Metro chassis to it? Or are you just picking up some choice Metro bits such as wheels, suspension etc to your unique EV frame?

As far as a transmission goes-what do you estimate for the weight of your finished product, and what top speed and climbing abilities do you want? I've seen EVs on this Forum and others successfully use-fixed gear, motorcycle trannies, twin motors with a series/parallel switch, manual trans both with and without clutch, modified Powerglide trans, snowmobile and scooter CVTs, and Deraileurs (see the Bikes section for those ). Once you get the weight/torque/speed questions answered, the Gurus on this Forum should be able to zero in on several good solutions...

BTW, if I were in possession of a decent Metro shell-

(and money, and time, and SKILL, etc etc) 

- i'd be tempted to trade out the back axle for a single (unpowered and suspended) back wheel, toss the back seat, keep the manual trans minus clutch and pop in some Lithiums and a good Forklift motor. A Metro Trike running FWD at half the normal weight would be a peppy, decent-ranged EV with the surefootedness of a Mountain Goat...

Good luck with the project BTW!


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## mastiff1 (Nov 3, 2009)

thanks for replying order99. I have access to a metro, quite rough and not road worthy due to rust in the pan and sills. My plan is to build a light weight solar/plug in. My goal is a 2 seater/sideXside minimalist vehicle is enclosed in hardcore foam/fiberglass like a Riley body. I want to keep the chassis and body to under 500 lbs if possible. I plan to split my honda 4 traxx quad, remove the swing arm and spread it to around 66" w/appropriate tubing and connect to a full honda 750 (1975) frame (w/clear title). It can then be licensed in OH as a motorcycle. The goal is distance ability but I would like to be able to get up to highway speeds, even if it takes awhile. I am playing w/the idea of utilizing "wind" energy similar to Mitsubishi's recent solar/wind EV that supplies only a very minor amount of electric via small wind turbines. I have been thinking of wind usage for a few years and believe I can do it, but of course there is added weight but I am hoping to offset this w/less battery weight. I was planning of using Metro hubs/brakes/lines and steering as well as various parts like window cranks and possibly windshield frame, all depending on wieght. I know it sounds like a lot of fabrication and I and my son are novice welders at best, but I have redone a few cars in my life so I am not too new to the machinery, just to electric propulsion. As far as EV hp of course I like speed, but cost and weight are the issues. About 30-50 hp is what I'm thinking and maybe utilizing the metro fwd to add 5-10 at each wheel so the larger motor can be swithed off for efficiency. Sound crazy yet? Any ideas or facts or sites are appreciated.


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## Salty9 (Jul 13, 2009)

Have you considered a 3 wheel hybrid? I have been planning a light weight hybrid with the front wheels, suspension and steering of a small car powered by a relatively small electric motor and a Honda 450 rear wheel and ICE motor in the rear.


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## mastiff1 (Nov 3, 2009)

I have considered a hybrid but I'm trying to keep as simple as possible first time around. Will consider a hybrid maybe next time. I really want to try EV racing w/this one.


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## order99 (Sep 8, 2008)

So it's a custom lightweight Tadpole Trike with some Metro parts in the mix-cool!

If you can keep it under 500 lbs (definitely Lithium packs!) you might want to consider CVT technology to get that mix of hill-climbing-to-highway speeds you want. CVTs need to be properly tuned to get the perfect power mix-the good news is that they can be, even by a ham-fisted idiot like me. Heck, this vehicle-

http://www.rqriley.com/urba-e.html

-ran the motor at a constant speed and use an Electronically-controlled CVT in place of a Motor Controller! Too bad that model is out of service these days...

If the money ever starts flowing a bit faster for me (may as well ask for superpowers, right?) I was planning on building a two person/one person& cargo Trike of my own. Assuming the requisite financial miracle actually occurs, I was tempted to try a NuVinci hub-

http://www.fallbrooktech.com/home.asp

-as i've heard that they would be suitable for motorcycles and other light EVs. Of course if your EV ends up at under a half ton (and you're shooting for about a quarter-ton there) then an entire world of motorcycle and ATV/snowmobile transmissions opens up to you. If the budget gets tight, forget NuVinci-one visit to Craigslist and a nice 'engine blown, good for parts' Kawasaki or Honda could be yours for spare change.


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## grayballs (Aug 27, 2008)

order99 said:


> , I was tempted to try a NuVinci hub-
> 
> http://www.fallbrooktech.com/home.asp
> 
> -as i've heard that they would be suitable for motorcycles and other light EVs.


 
Having built a couple of Tadpoles, in the past, I've been admiring these hubs since I first discovered them,, the only problem is that I've never seen one for anything other than a bicycle. Nu-Vinci claims 'larger, stronger, capable of transmitting motorized power',,,, Has anyone actually seen one? The principle is pretty basic,,, more spheres, more power,,,, the ultimate transmission if one can find it.


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## Amberwolf (May 29, 2009)

Supposedly Fallbrook has a version of the hub "in development" that would be suitable for motorcycle-class power levels, but that's what they've said for years, and nothing verifiable ever came of it (they didn't even answer my questions about that one, though they did about the bicycle version, which is all they've ever released).

The version actually available is for lacing into spoked bicycle wheels, either 32 or 36 spokes, depending on which version you order (just different lacing holes drilled in it). It is only warrantied for this application--if you don't lace it into a *rear* wheel, the warranty is void (because of the way their instructions read). 

If you run anything other than human drive power thru it, the warranty is void (should they in their sole determination choose to say that such use damaged it, which you have no way of objecting to).

If you don't mount it and it's accessory parts exactly as their instructions specify, the warranty is void (should they in their sole determination choose to say that such use damaged it, which you have no way of objecting to).

That's verified by my communications with them, and when I asked if they would revise this they said they would take it under consideration (which basically means no). I had wanted to use it in a design for a fully-suspended recumbent tadpole cargo trike, as part of the integrated human/electric drivetrain. It would not have been laced into a wheel, but rather part of the inline drivetrain, to help reduce in-wheel-rotating and unsprung mass (it's pretty heavy for a bike hub). Each of those things individually void it's warranty, preventing me from using it at all, as I wanted to develop these as a commercially-produced design. I can't use a major expensive part that I can't get warrantied by the manufacturer. 

So it's only good for a certain class of regular bicycles, as it's use is disallowed by the very instructions they have for mounting it or it's control shifter or other parts in a number of bicycle variations, or in any power-assisted vehicle that passes it's power assist into the drivetrain that contains the NuVinci. 

Unverified by me, since I won't buy something that won't have a warranty if I use it the way my needs dictate:

I've heard various real-world efficiencies for it from 85% down to 66%, and that they higher power levels put thru it the worse that is, because of the way power is transmitted within it (via special fluid between the ellipsoids and the rings). 

I've also heard that it does not shift under load, that one must stop or slow your pedalling to shift depending on the direction of shifting and the actual load on it. 


It looks marvelous on paper. It might even work very well. Just keep in mind I doubt it would survive motorcycle-class power loads, and that you have no warranty for it if you run it other than by human power alone, laced into the rear wheel of a bicycle, with everything that's a part of it's system mounted per their instructions. 
________
Sunset Boulevard Residence 2 Pattaya


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## grayballs (Aug 27, 2008)

Amberwolf said:


> Supposedly Fallbrook has a version of the hub "in development" that would be suitable for motorcycle-class power levels, but that's what they've said for years, and nothing verifiable ever came of it (they didn't even answer my questions about that one, though they did about the bicycle version, which is all they've ever released).
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
Most torroidal type transmissions will shift quite well, under load,,, I would think that stopping would make it more difficult.... Probably just a moot point, since it appears to be vapor ware. (I don't know who I stole that phrase from, but it seems most appropriate)


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## Amberwolf (May 29, 2009)

grayballs said:


> Most torroidal type transmissions will shift quite well, under load,,, I would think that stopping would make it more difficult.... Probably just a moot point, since it appears to be vapor ware. (I don't know who I stole that phrase from, but it seems most appropriate)


I didn't mean stopping completely and shifting, but rather stopping the power input to it.  It is supposed to be easier to shift when the vehicle is actually stopped than other drivetrains, but still is stiff to do so, as I'd expect. (still way better than a chain drive / derailer, for shifting when stopped!). 

I really really wish I could use the NuVinci....
________
BLACK LIVE


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## esoneson (Sep 1, 2008)

Just a suggestion, take a peek at:

http://www.doingitall.net/EnerTrac/


Email Mark and ask about his dual-motor automobile application.

Might be a great fit for your application.

Eric


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## 3wheeler (Sep 28, 2011)

Hi, Just to let you know I'm also building an electric reverse trike. So here is what happened to me. I'm using 23 cells LiFePO4 100 AHr cells and Alltrax 450 Amp PWM with a PM DC motor ( Mars ME 0709 ). DC motors have a flat torque curve so a transition is not necessary. But you need to gear down the RPMs, the gear ratio will determine your acceleration and top speed, choose the right ratio for your needs. In my case I needed a 1:5 gear down. Originally I used a synchronized belt drive, but these belts can not be crimped, 30t on the drive sprocket ant 70T on the driven sprocket wasn't enough. I then used double V belts to gear down to the synchronous belts. Check out my video on youtube: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tiS4F9sAF0I

THIS WAS A MISTAKE. The double V belts used up so much power ( about 20 Amps ) and lost energy was dissipated as heat. but it worked well.

So I converted to a chain drive. A 530 chain with a 10T sprocket on the motor and a 48T driven sprocket on the R1 rear rim. ANOTHER EXPENSIVE MISTAKE. Although more efficient, this set up is so noisy, I'm scared to drive it ( it's well aligned if that's what you're thinking ). So I recommend either 1. A shaft drive from a used motorcycle or 2. A hub motor.

Hopefully you can profit from my mistakes and good luck on your project.


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## PStechPaul (May 1, 2012)

Your trike is a cool looking machine. Too bad you can't get it street legal because of the dimensions. Maybe it can be modified to meet the requirements, or maybe sell it and build another. You should start your own thread, as this is four years old. Good luck!


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