# UQM selling 150kW BLDC drive system for only $4K...



## meanderingthemaze (Jan 25, 2010)

...to a bus manufacturing company Proterra. Feeling screwed yet?

Check out this report:
http://www.bizjournals.com/denver/stories/2010/09/27/daily21.html

I'm summarize, they are selling Proterra 150 drive systems for $627,500 (or $4,183/ea)

I was recently quoted a price of $29,310 for the PowerPhase 150. When I inquire about bulk pricing for their 'lesser' systems, this is what I got back:



> [FONT=&quot] PowerPhase 75: [/FONT]
> [FONT=&quot]4 systems: $18,809/system[/FONT]
> [FONT=&quot]20 systems: $[/FONT][FONT=&quot]16,320[/FONT][FONT=&quot]/system[/FONT]
> [FONT=&quot]50 systems: $[/FONT][FONT=&quot]14,724[/FONT][FONT=&quot]/system[/FONT]
> ...


I understand a markup for doing single unit sales, but c'mon, this is ridiculous.

I bet we could find 150 converters to pay $4,183 for the PowerPhase150. Whadda ya say?


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## frodus (Apr 12, 2008)

economy of scale....

the more you buy, the less they cost, thats just how the world works.


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## meanderingthemaze (Jan 25, 2010)

But that's my whole point, economy of scale not being fairly implemented. Look closer at those numbers I posted!


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## peggus (Feb 18, 2008)

meanderingthemaze said:


> But that's my whole point, economy of scale not being fairly implemented. Look closer at those numbers I posted!


Proterra only needs minor support and will probably place many recurring orders. If they sold to a group they'd have to support 150 customers with all the headaches and risks that involves.

They are under no obligation to sell you anything.


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## efan (Aug 27, 2009)

meanderingthemaze said:


> I bet we could find 150 converters to pay $4,183 for the PowerPhase150. Whadda ya say?


At this price we could probably get 75 converters each buying two systems


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## meanderingthemaze (Jan 25, 2010)

peggus said:


> Proterra only needs minor support and will probably place many recurring orders. If they sold to a group they'd have to support 150 customers with all the headaches and risks that involves.
> 
> They are under no obligation to sell you anything.


You're right peggus, businesses can do anything they want. In fact, businesses screw people all the time. That doesn't mean I like it or that I agree with it. 

Like I stated before, I understand that they would charge more for single unit sales, but to charge $25,000 for tech support?!?!


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## peggus (Feb 18, 2008)

10k$ according to your numbers, comparing 100units to 150 units though, extrapolating your numbers to 150 units give ~8k$ difference.

That would work out to 40hours of my time, using my employers cost structure, I suspect UQM is not that different. They don't have the support organization to deal with individuals because that's not who their customers are, so engineers like me end up doing a lot of the support. 

This doesn't even factor in the cost of the added risk they have to deal with. A few disgruntled individuals can really drag your name through the mud.

It doesn't seem to me like they are screwing you. If you set yourself up as a distributor, get yourself trained on their product and promise to take on the individual customer support, I bet you'll be able to get a better price. Then, people will accuse you of screwing them because you'll have to charge for all of the above plus profit, to stay afloat.


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## meanderingthemaze (Jan 25, 2010)

peggus,

The pricing was $29k for individual conversion price, which is where I got the $25k support cost number. I don't have bulk pricing for the PP150. But you could extrapolate an estimate based on the numbers above.

With adequate documentation, many inquiries could be dealt with. Also, it doesn't make sense to pay customer support the same salary as an engineer. And that could easily be overcome with proper training. 

As far as disgruntled individuals, I would hope good customer support would minimize those. They're always a few people who feel screwed no matter what.


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## Crash (Oct 20, 2009)

I agree... $25K for support and insurance (since they need to cover insurance for non OEM sales) is ridiculous. I do understand what they're trying to convey - which is that they don't want to sell you anything at all unless you're OEM - but there's honestly no reason for that kind of mark up. Their PP200 unit looks mighty fine to me, but I'm not going to spend $34,000 on a motor/controller like theirs. That's more than a Brusa setup. 

I have no doubt that if they don't get more deals with OEMs they'll need to put up or close down. But I think if they're selling these units for $5k/ea to the OEMs, they'll have no problem staying in business.

It's just unfortunate that they're not passionate about EVs enough to care about the DIY guys.


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## meanderingthemaze (Jan 25, 2010)

Hey Crash,

Have you checked out this one yet?
http://www.rinehartmotion.com/products.html

I haven't asked them for pricing yet.


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## peggus (Feb 18, 2008)

I work for a company very similar to UQM, I've seen the quotes go out, several hundred dollars quoted for a little $25 circuit board, and I've dealt with the customer support. I'm just sharing my perspective here.

UQM used to sell to individuals in their early and more hungry days. They no longer have to deal with that headache, which, is why they're giving you the "go away" price.

You can't compare the single quantity price to the 150 unit price. The economy of scale to manufacture a single unit versus 150 is radically different.

Anyway, I'm looking forward to seeing your EV on the roads of LA in the not to distant future.


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## efan (Aug 27, 2009)

meanderingthemaze said:


> Have you checked out this one yet?
> http://www.rinehartmotion.com/products.html
> 
> I haven't asked them for pricing yet.


hey, i contacted them a while ago and asked for price on their 100kw inverter...I have to say their prices were quite steep...they quoted $12k, but also said that the prices should be coming down in the next couple of months although I dont believe they will go low enough for the common diyer


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## Crash (Oct 20, 2009)

meanderingthemaze said:


> Hey Crash,
> 
> Have you checked out this one yet?
> http://www.rinehartmotion.com/products.html
> ...


Interesting. What motors do they work for? Do they have their own motors? That's some very high amper ratings including the high voltage systems. I can imagine controllers like these pushing well over 1200Lbs/tq.



efan said:


> hey, i contacted them a while ago and asked for price on their 100kw inverter...I have to say their prices were quite steep...they quoted $12k, but also said that the prices should be coming down in the next couple of months although I dont believe they will go low enough for the common diyer


Well, That may not be that bad considering UQM's prices. But yeah, still steep.


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## Crash (Oct 20, 2009)

I just noticed that Racing Green Endurance uses their controller.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

peggus said:


> You can't compare the single quantity price to the 150 unit price. The economy of scale to manufacture a single unit versus 150 is radically different.


That doesn't make sense. They already have economies of scale operating when they build the order for Proterra, it actually costs them even less per unit if they make a few more than that order.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Crash said:


> Interesting. What motors do they work for? Do they have their own motors? That's some very high amper ratings including the high voltage systems. I can imagine controllers like these pushing well over 1200Lbs/tq.


Dave Kois is selling the Rinehart inverters with the old Ford Siemens Ranger motors:
http://currentevtech.com/Drive-Systems/100-KW-AC-Drive-System-c45/


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## peggus (Feb 18, 2008)

Yeah, he should inquire again now that Proterra has placed their order, he my be able to piggyback on it. 




JRP3 said:


> That doesn't make sense. They already have economies of scale operating when they build the order for Proterra, it actually costs them even less per unit if they make a few more than that order.


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## Crash (Oct 20, 2009)

JRP3 said:


> Dave Kois is selling the Rinehart inverters with the old Ford Siemens Ranger motors:
> http://currentevtech.com/Drive-Systems/100-KW-AC-Drive-System-c45/


Very nice. Now maybe someone can find a motor that will handle the power that the controller can output. And I'd love to see either the 250 or 350KW controller matched up to a good motor!


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## asrautox (Oct 5, 2010)

The business journal article erroniously stated that UQM sold '150 PowerPhase systems' to Proterra, when it should have read 'PowerPhase 150 systems'. The quantity sold to Proterra has not been disclosed.


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## Crash (Oct 20, 2009)

That makes more sense.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Good catch. Probably closer to $10-$15K, similar to what ACP discounted for the MiniE.


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## meanderingthemaze (Jan 25, 2010)

I presume that this is the source of the information.
http://www.uqm.com/news_article.php?aid=151

asrautox, are you a rep for UQM?


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## meanderingthemaze (Jan 25, 2010)

Well, it appears that us lowly converters are the least of UQM's problems. (see attached)

It's too bad that we can't work out a partnership with them. It'd be nice to keep some jobs in the US.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Tell me about it, I have a few shares  Least they could do is sell me a motor at a discount


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