# New A123 cells perform in extreme tempuratures



## tomofreno (Mar 3, 2009)

Good find JRP3! I wonder how it compares to Altairnano's lithium titanate which has also been know for its high specific power and very long cycle life. The downside with it is it has lower specific energy than LiFePO4. I wonder if the same is true for the EXT material? The lithium titanate was also more expensive, so I wonder if the EXT is. Certainly expect they would demand a premium for added performance. Maybe since a Chinese company bought interest in A123 the technology will actually trickle down to diyers. They seem to in general have a more pragmatic "sure, we'll sell to anyone" outlook.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

My hope with the Chinese takeover is lower cost and actually willing to sell the product.


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## tomofreno (Mar 3, 2009)

From Altairnano's company brochure on their website:

"In real-world commercial applications, Altairnano batteries perform in ways other batteries simply can’t. The secret is our proprietary, nano lithium titanate (nLTO) chemistry, which provides these industry-leading benefits:

*Rapid Charge and Discharge Rates*
Many batteries offer fast discharge capabilities, but only Altairnano technology is proven for high charge-rate applications up to 10 C, or completely charging a system in six minutes or less. The result is unmatched performance in high-power applications.

*Durability and Long Life*
Altairnano’s battery cells are designed for a life of 16,000 full depth-of-discharge cycles – up to six times greater than competitive lithium-ion technologies. At partial depth-of-discharge, customers can expect up to 1,000,000 cycles before life is reduced to 80 percent of useful capacity. Not just long life, but batteries capable of reliably performing in the toughest applications.

*Peak Performance in Extreme Temperatures*
The nLTO technology also represents a breakthrough in extreme temperature performance. Altairnano’s batteries are capable of charging and discharging in temperatures as low as – 40°C. Other
lithium-ion technologies possess virtually no charging capabilities at temperatures
below 0°C and non-lithium-ion rechargeable batteries take 10 to 20 times
longer to charge at these low temperatures.

*Safety Performance*
Altairnano’s systems ensure greater chemical stability than other lithium-ion batteries in the market. As a result, in safety-cycle testing, Altairnano’s battery
cells are significantly less likely to reach temperatures where thermal runaway
can occur compared to graphite-based batteries. In addition, Altairnano
batteries have performed in the most challenging high-rate overcharge, puncture, crush, drop and other UN/DOT comparative tests with no concerns."


Like Altairnano, the white paper on the A123 website focuses on specific power and applications that require it such as grid frequency regulation and micro hybrids. No mention of specific energy. I have a brochure from Altairnano from about 2007 with a graph that indicates their specific energy is about 90 Wh/kg. It gives their charging temperature as -50 C to +75 C, and discharge -60C to +75C. Discharge C rate up to 100+, and charge C rate up to 50+. So in that regard, the A123 EXT is nothing new. The Altairnano cells have been available at least 5 years, and are being used in grid applications.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Too bad that Altairnano must cost way too much for any OEM to use them in a vehicle. I'm not sure even Proterra are still using them in their buses.


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## Ziggythewiz (May 16, 2010)

Why would an OEM want to use a cell that lasts 16k-1,000k cycles?


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Ask Nissan.


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## Ziggythewiz (May 16, 2010)

I'll be sure to do that when they have a car hit 1,000,000 miles on the original battery pack. Last I heard there were cars in 2 or 3 states with packs dying already.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

That's my point....


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## tomofreno (Mar 3, 2009)

JRP3 said:


> Too bad that Altairnano must cost way too much for any OEM to use them in a vehicle. I'm not sure even Proterra are still using them in their buses.


At least you (well someone) could purchase them. 
I think their main problem is their management.

Don't know their cost, but not confident the new A123 cells will be much cheaper. The fact that A123 seems to be targeting mainly grid storage, the niche Altairnano has had some success at, makes me think maybe they saw an opportunity in Al's success there, and growing demand due to growing wind power. Also, each installation uses a lot of cells compared to the piddly number in a car. They can maybe command a higher price there too, since it is amortized over decades of operation.

Doesn't look like a solution for cars to me, but then I'm just hypothesizing that the specific energy is lower.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

tomofreno said:


> At least you (well someone) could purchase them.


By whatever means there are far more A123 cells in DIY hands than Altairnanos 


> I think their main problem is their management.


A123 and Altairnano seem to share that problem. 


> Doesn't look like a solution for cars to me, but then I'm just hypothesizing that the specific energy is lower.


Reasonable speculation, though I'm assuming their breakthrough may be the improved performance without reduced specific energy. If they've just recreated Altairnano's technology then they really haven't done much.


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## DanGT86 (Jan 1, 2011)

I read somewhere that the specific energy was slightly lower in the new A123ext cells. I don't think it was by much. Wish I could remember exact numbers. Also wish I wouldn't have bought A123 stock at $10.75 because now it's trading at .33 per share. Oops!


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

I feel ya, my cost basis is lower than that, but it's still ugly. Just hoping that the Chinese can turn this thing around someday.


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## muffildy (Oct 11, 2011)

someone here actually got their hands on altairnano cells? how and how much and specs of the cell obtained?


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

As far as I know no one who could be considered DIY has been able to use Altairnano's, other than one drag racing team who is no longer racing, and one start up British sports car company http://green.autoblog.com/2007/06/12/lightning-car-co-to-use-altairnano-batteries-in-new-sports-car/ Neither really a DIY project.


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