# [EVDL] Nissan Leaf to be low cost



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Hi All,

Nissan is going to price the Leaf EV about
the same as an ICE!!

By Mary Milliken

LOS ANGELES (Reuters) - Nissan Motor Co Ltd will keep the
price of its upcoming battery-powered Leaf competitive with
similar-sized cars and expects to make money on the vehicle
despite the cost of its launch, Chief Executive Carlos Ghosn
on Friday.

The five-passenger hatchback, which is being designed to
have an all-electric range of 100 miles, would cost only 1
to 2 percent more than traditional combustion engine
vehicles in its class, he said.

"On the pricing of the vehicle it is too early to say, but
there will be no surprise," Ghosn said. "We know it will be
the key to the mass market."

Nissan has not disclosed pricing on the Leaf, but has said
it expects the car to be the first affordable, mass-market
electric car when it goes on sale in the United States,
Japan and Europe by the end of 2010.

http://www.reuters.com/article/GCA-GreenBusiness/idUSTRE5AC4VC20091113?pageNumber=1&virtualBrandChannel=11604


Jerry Dycus

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

I think we all hope they can really pull it off and the market responds
well.
good luck nissan, I know if I was currently buying this would be top of my
list.
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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> jerryd wrote:
> >
> >
> > Hi All,
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Hi Dave and All,

I've been saying for yrs there is no
reason EV's need to cost more than ICE's. They are simple
with far less parts as the motor weighs far less and only
has 3 moving parts, no transmission needed, the controller,
charger are cheap in quantity and batteries are paid for by
the tax credit. GM and I expect others are buying Lithium
batteries for $.30/wthr or less which is under seal lead
battery costs.
With battery swapping as A Better Place is
doing, the battery cost, risk is by them with you just
paying a by mile charge for battery and electricity with
unlimited range, cost shouldn't be any more than an ICE and
less fuel cost including battery than an ICE. 
I think these will be hot sellers by both
the public and gov, utility, other fleets so get your order
in early. A Better Place already ordered 100k of them to
sell where they will have swapping/charging stations.
Ford too will have the Focus EV ready for
when gas hits $4-5/gal next yr and since it's based on the
new lightweight Focus glider, it can be ramped up fast too
to meet the demand when gas goes up. In 2 yrs they will have
multiple Plug in hybrids, EV's like the Transit Van coming
out next yr, all based on production chassis that can easily
be switched from ICE to EV drive.
All the other big car companies can't ramp
up as they are just doing prototype production lines of few
EV's because they don't want to produce them that won't be
able to meet demand for 3-4 yrs.
Those that invest in stock I think Nissan
and Ford are good bets as they are preparing for the future
in a smart way.
Has anyone else noticed the Jay Leno's
racing Focus EV on his show is getting faster as the battery
pack gets used?

Jerry Dycus


----- Original Message Follows -----
From: Dave Hymers <[email protected]>
To: [email protected], Electric Vehicle Discussion List
<[email protected]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Nissan Leaf to be low cost
Date: Sat, 14 Nov 2009 20:13:27 -0700

>I think we all hope they can really pull it off and the
>market responds well.
>good luck nissan, I know if I was currently buying this
>would be top of my list.
> 

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Dave Hymers wrote;
I think we all hope they can really pull it off and the market responds
well.
good luck nissan, I know if I was currently buying this would be top of my
list.


Remember not so long ago when we thought that we would "never" see a major OEM EV mass-produced in our lifetime. It was the same story with advanced batteries and now we have LiFePo4, I think things will get really exciting when these vehicles and batteries start ending up in the auto recycles where we can buy used EV parts and start making some wild stuff. 

The next 10 years WILL be exciting, but what will we do when EVs become common place?



Have a renewable sustainable energy day


Richard Furniss 
Las Vegas NV
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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> jerryd <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> >
> >
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Dave Hymers wrote:
> I think we all hope they can really pull it off and the market responds
> well.
> good luck nissan, I know if I was currently buying this would be top of my
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

-------------------------------------------------
From: "Willie McKemie" <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Nissan Leaf to be low cost

>


> jerryd wrote:
> >> Nissan is going to price the Leaf EV about
> >> the same as an ICE!!
> >
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Richard Furniss <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> > The next 10 years WILL be exciting, but what will we do when EVs become common place?
> >
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Richard Furniss <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> >
> > The next 10 years WILL be exciting, but what will we do when EVs become
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Richard Furniss" <[email protected]>
To: "EV List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Sunday, November 15, 2009 6:18 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Nissan Leaf to be low cost




> > Dave Hymers wrote:
> > I think we all hope they can really pull it off and the market responds
> > well.
> > good luck nissan, I know if I was currently buying this would be top of my
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

They should be less than the ICE version. Especially since the 
batteries are not included.



> jerryd wrote:
> 
> >
> >
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Dennis Miles wrote:
> > Why just let car dealers rent the batteries for the new EVs?
> 
> It is already common for users of common EVs like forklifts and golf
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> On 15 Nov 2009 at 15:18, Richard Furniss wrote:
> 
> > Remember not so long ago when we thought that we would "never" see a major OEM
> > EV mass-produced in our lifetime.
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

I thought that was the goal, to have everyone driving EVs. Richard, are you 
suggesting that EVs should remain the property of only those who want a 
hobby? I want them to become commonplace as soon as possible so we can pull 
into any shop to have one repaired, the same as if it were an ICE, to stop 
at any gas station to charge at one of their outlets and go to any auto 
dealer to buy a new one, which will have a warranty. If I tell someone I 
drive an EV I want them to respond, "Doesn't everyone?"

Gail

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Richard Furniss" <[email protected]>
To: "EV List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Sunday, November 15, 2009 3:18 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Nissan Leaf to be low cost


> Remember not so long ago when we thought that we would "never" see a major 
> OEM EV mass-produced in our lifetime. It was the same story with advanced 
> batteries and now we have LiFePo4, I think things will get really exciting 
> when these vehicles and batteries start ending up in the auto recycles 
> where we can buy used EV parts and start making some wild stuff.
>
> The next 10 years WILL be exciting, but what will we do when EVs become 
> common place?

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Remember not so long ago when we thought that we would "never" see a major 
> OEM EV mass-produced in our lifetime. It was the same story with advanced 
> batteries and now we have LiFePo4, I think things will get really exciting 
> when these vehicles and batteries start ending up in the auto recycles 
> where we can buy used EV parts and start making some wild stuff.
>
> The next 10 years WILL be exciting, but what will we do when EVs become 
> common place?

You're not going to get any of the Leaf batteries from junk yards... Nissan 
is selling the car, but leasing the battery

But there will be a level 3 power inlet next to the level 2 inlet.

http://evsandenergy.blogspot.com/2009/11/nissans-leaf-falls-gently-to-earth-in.html

Rush
Tucson AZ 

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

So... Can you buy the leaf then not pay the lease and give back the
battery and keep the car? (ultimate glider?)
Now you can fit any battery you want in there?
Do Aftermarket battery packs void warranty? M

I am thinking they should open the protocols used and let the battery
companies duke it out. Give the end user something to choose.

Like the days when I was in high school wheere you were allowed to mod
your car, you had a sticker for the windshields for the products you
had, Carter, Holly, etc.

Let Duracell and the bunny duke it out on TV.

> -------------------------------------------------
> From: "Willie McKemie" <[email protected]>
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Nissan Leaf to be low cost
>
>>


> jerryd wrote:
> >>> Nissan is going to price the Leaf EV about
> >>> the same as an ICE!!
> >>
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Bob Rice wrote:
> 
> >>
> >> Dave Hymers wrote:
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Oh, yeah? It's happened before - see the Ford Ranger EV pickups!!! The 
original 8V batteries are not available in any format of the correct size.

Joseph H. Strubhar

Web: www.gremcoinc.com

E-mail: [email protected]


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Martin K" <[email protected]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, November 16, 2009 11:09 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Nissan Leaf to be low cost


>


> Joseph Ashwood <[email protected]> wrote:
> >
> >>
> >>
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> joe <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> > Oh, yeah? It's happened before - see the Ford Ranger EV pickups!!! The
> > original 8V batteries are not available in any format of the correct size.
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Martin K wrote:
> >> I hope they also make them available for purchase, I'd really hate to see
> >> the LEAF2 have a different battery form factor so everyone that bought a
> >> LEAF is screwed.
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Lee Hart <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> > Martin K wrote:
> >> That won't happen, some third party would be happy to pick up a
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Martin K <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> >> Notice that *none* of the batteries used in *any* of the recent auto
> >> company produced EVs or hybrids are available from anyone except the
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

From: Martin K
> it's not apparent that a third party could be legally prevented
> from making batteries that work with these cars (physical restrictions
> are fixed with a hack saw, basically.) As an example, Lexmark sued a
> company that "circumvented" their lock-out for toner cartridges. They
> lost the case.

It will depend on what method the manufacturer uses. If they depend on secrecy, some enterprising "hacker" can figure it out, and sell a clone without fear of prosecution. But if the manufacturer patented some aspect, they *can* prosecute to stop it from bein used by others.

Notice that the Toyota Prius has been on the market for over 10 years now. Over a million cars have been produced, Yet, there still are no alternate sources of Prius batteries.

In contrast, when a carmaker introduces a new 12v car battery size, the aftermarket is selling them within a few months.

--
Those who say it cannot be done should not interrupt the one who is
doing it. -- Chinese proverb
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart-at-earthlink.net

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Are you aware of any lawsuits or other strong arm tactics Toyota has used? It could just be that most cars will need several starter batteries, but Prius packs last a long time and the rarely needed replacements are being done with packs from wrecked cars.



________________________________
From: Lee Hart <[email protected]>
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <[email protected]>
Sent: Tue, November 17, 2009 3:05:51 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Nissan Leaf to be low cost

It will depend on what method the manufacturer uses. If they depend on secrecy, some enterprising "hacker" can figure it out, and sell a clone without fear of prosecution. But if the manufacturer patented some aspect, they *can* prosecute to stop it from bein used by others.

Notice that the Toyota Prius has been on the market for over 10 years now. Over a million cars have been produced, Yet, there still are no alternate sources of Prius batteries.

In contrast, when a carmaker introduces a new 12v car battery size, the aftermarket is selling them within a few months.



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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Gail you got me wrong, I have driven the Nissan in electric mode when the hydrogen tour came through Las Vegas. In less than two years will be driving OEM electric vehicles, you can have EV #2 I want to be EV #1.



> Gail Lucas wrote:
> 
> I thought that was the goal, to have everyone driving EVs. Richard, are you
> suggesting that EVs should remain the property of only those who want a
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Notice that the Toyota Prius has been on the market for over 10 years now. 
> Over a million cars have been produced, Yet, there still are no alternate 
> sources of Prius batteries.

My 2000 Insight recently had a battery pack failure. Since it was out of 
warentty (it had 160k miles and warrenty is to 150k on my model) and Honda 
asked $2000 + $600 shipping and labor, I found www.hybrid-battery-repair.com 
in Staten Island NY. It cost me $1000 for a 'refurbished' pack. Only 2 of 
the D sized HIMH cells were replaced, but all the 'sticks' were 
reconditioned so that they are all performing at the same level.

The problem is that each stick has 5 D cells in it and there are 20 sticks 
to pack. So each charge/discharge cycle puts the cells/sticks slightly out 
of balance and when the balance is too far the pack gives a 'bad pack' error 
messsage when in fact they are mostly just out of balance. Here is a link to 
how Ron of Hybrid battery repair does it. 
http://www.hybrid-battery-repair.com/insight/diy.html

Rush
Tucson AZ
www.TEVA2.com 

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Martin K wrote:
> 
> > On Tue, Nov 17, 2009 at 4:18 PM, Martin K <[email protected]
> > > wrote:
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

I wonder if we can use the Automotive companies Hybrid batteries as a
comparison.
They are not under the same "stress" and the car generally runs without
them, correct?
If the capacity drops in half, the controller compensates and you get
less MPG, but all the energy comes from the gas so your total range only
drops by a small percent.

Obviously in an EV if half the capacity is gone in 2 years, you are an
unsatisfied customer.
A different pack may mean more performance or more range at a trade of
less life or vica versa. It may be nice to have choices for the customer.

Start with the low cost option and upgrade later?

> From: Martin K
> 
>> > it's not apparent that a third party could be legally prevented
>> > from making batteries that work with these cars (physical restrictions
>> > are fixed with a hack saw, basically.) As an example, Lexmark sued a
>> > company that "circumvented" their lock-out for toner cartridges. They
>> > lost the case.
>> 
>
> It will depend on what method the manufacturer uses. If they depend on secrecy, some enterprising "hacker" can figure it out, and sell a clone without fear of prosecution. But if the manufacturer patented some aspect, they *can* prosecute to stop it from bein used by others.
>
> Notice that the Toyota Prius has been on the market for over 10 years now. Over a million cars have been produced, Yet, there still are no alternate sources of Prius batteries.
>
> In contrast, when a carmaker introduces a new 12v car battery size, the aftermarket is selling them within a few months.
>
> --
> Those who say it cannot be done should not interrupt the one who is
> doing it. -- Chinese proverb
> --
> Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart-at-earthlink.net
>
>
> 

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