# What controller can i use?



## dougingraham (Jul 26, 2011)

So the regulations say a purchased controller must be EMC certified, do they allow you to use a kit that you construct yourself? If so then you could work around it that way. I am curious as to how they would know when they inspected the vehicle? Do they have a list of certified controllers? If so get the list and check out the possibilities. If they don't have a list how would they know it wasn't certified?


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## z_power (Dec 17, 2011)

I saw an offer in Austrian webshop on shielded box - enclosure for power components like controller, dc/dc, contactors, shunt etc. They claimed box is CE certified for use in electric vehicles and you can use any components you want, just mount them them inside; enclosure will take care of EMI dampening. I'll try to find a link.


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## Eric (Sep 9, 2012)

doug: on vehicle inspection i must show EMC certificate, the certificate must have a serial number on it and that same serial number must be on the controller as well.
If i use a not EMC certified controller i must pay for an additional test to show i dont break EMC regulations, the test itself is 1300 euro's, if i fail i have to do the test again and pay 1300 euro's again.

If i know how to make a controller EMC approved i can just do that, or have someone else do it for me, than pay the 1300 euro's and the test will be fine without certificate.
If i read back in time Rebbl got the Soliton controllers EMC approved and they spend 39.000 euro's doing so, so it wont be easy i gues..

z_power, some sort of shielded box would probably do the trick, if you can find that link ill be really interested in that.

For now ill just send emails to all controller brands to see if they can come up with EMC certificates, surely they must be trying to meet EMC standards as this would increase their market.


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## Qer (May 7, 2008)

Eric said:


> For now ill just send emails to all controller brands to see if they can come up with EMC certificates, surely they must be trying to meet EMC standards as this would increase their market.


It's probably not what you want to hear, but I think you're overestimating the market potential of an EMC-certified controller. The DIY-market is very small in US and almost non-existing in EU (much, I think, because of the EU-rules for EMC etc) and as far as I know no other controller available for DIY-use is certified (at least not DC, don't know about for example Curtis AC-series).

Of course, ask around (can't hurt), but don't get your hopes up too much. Thanks to our friendly politicians in Brussel the DIY-market in EU has just slightly more potiential than a dead, rotting fish in a trash can.

PS. I'm not bitter...


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## Eric (Sep 9, 2012)

I know, chances are little but if i dont ask ill never know 

Controllers are not only used in DIY EV's i guess so there must be a bigger market for these devices.


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## Eric (Sep 9, 2012)

Just found this, www.zapiinc.com, they have a Dutch reseller and their website says all products have CE certificates, wich includes electromagnetic compatibility.

I guess ill give them a call tomorrow and see if this is correct and if they can supply the necessary documents to prove it.


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## gunnarhs (Apr 24, 2012)

Eric said:


> doug:
> If i use a not EMC certified controller i must pay for an additional test to show i dont break EMC regulations, the test itself is 1300 euro's, if i fail i have to do the test again and pay 1300 euro's again.


Hi Eric,
I would expect that the dutch rules were similar to german which I do know quite well (should be the same in the EU but some countries have exceptions). The problem converting a car is always that you can not buy a complete solution which is EMI-proof you have to do something yourself. 
So in any case you will have make the complete EMI test (which costs at least 1000 Euros) for the vehicle in EU even if all of your parts (motor, controller e.t.c) are certified. 
Note that CE-certificates for motor and controllers are for example different for a vehicle than in other applications and if the certificate is not certified for automobile applications it is of no use).
So instead of spending additional money for each "certified" component, which quickly adds too a few thousand Euros, just try to buy the best possible product for your application and make the complete EMI test for the 1300 Euros.
Do not worry so much about the EMI-test, if your car does not pass it due to a component it is in most cases bad wiring. 
Just put your controller and your components in an ordinary shielded box. Then bring a portable radio and a compass with you and test them out inside and outside (1-meter from car), if their function is the same with car off and on (press the pedal when testing), then you will pass the EMI-test too


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## Eric (Sep 9, 2012)

That sounds promising, i will look for shielded boxes and check with the certifying agency for the exact testing regulations.


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## EVfun (Mar 14, 2010)

This brings up a few ideas. Oh, does the DC motor have to be EMI certified too? 

One, are there people that have created a kind of EMI pre-test? A simplified test that lets you know you are likely to pass would be nice before dropping 1300 euro.

Two, what about the old school contactor controller? There is a bit of an issue right at the switch steps, but resistors and good routing should mitigate that.

Three, how about a shunt motor? You can use a simple power rheostat for the field as it is only a few percent of the motor power. The armature can remain powered with full pack voltage whenever the field is powered. The resulting EV "idles" like a gas car. The lowest rpm is with a full field and as you reduce the field the motor wants to gain rpm. No switching external to the motor. 

Move to the states? (just kidding) It's like the "wild west" in much of the USA west. Vehicle inspections are often minimal to non-existent. You can do most anything that doesn't attract the attention of the police.


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## gunnarhs (Apr 24, 2012)

EVfun said:


> This brings up a few ideas. Oh, does the DC motor have to be EMI certified too?


Yes the motor (in my case AC) had to be certified too if I was to produce a (small) series of car. But in case of DIY, you do not need certified products, just make once the complete test for whole car. This applies then only to this specidic car of course...



> One, are there people that have created a kind of EMI pre-test? A simplified test that lets you know you are likely to pass would be nice before dropping 1300 euro.


Well there are methods which give an indication of a magnetic field and electric field.
If you have sensitive equipment like compass-needle (you can even use an app in your smart phone), or a radio inside the car and both are disturbed, you will most certainly not pass the test.
Not speaking of if Tachometer-needle is jumping around when you press the pedal



> Move to the states? (just kidding) It's like the "wild west" in much of the USA west. Vehicle inspections are often minimal to non-existent. You can do most anything that doesn't attract the attention of the police.


At least US-production cars I have seen have some CE or other certificates in every component. But the most funny thing I have seen was a Chinese CE - certificate in a car we have. When I asked them about it, the answer was:
"Yes, Yes, CE-certified, Chinese-Export."


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## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

gunnarhs said:


> Yes the motor (in my case AC) had to be certified too if I was to produce a (small) series of car. But in case of DIY, you do not need certified products, just make once the complete test for whole car. This applies then only to this specidic car of course......


No, this is bad advice. 

*Any* electronic product imported into the EU must be certified as EMC compliant. For most consumer and industrial products the manufacturer can simply state the device conforms and slap a "CE" mark on it (so-called "self-declaration"), but for any device used in an on-road vehicle the much more stringent "e" mark is required, and this mark can only be received through formal testing by an approved testing laboratory (e.g. - TUV).

I have heard that some people have used regular CE-marked components in an EV and then had the whole vehicle tested for EMC (around 1.500E, IIRC). Whether that is a more appealing route to take than using products with the e-mark (which, theoretically, will let you skip the whole-vehicle test) I'll leave to the individual to decide.


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## gunnarhs (Apr 24, 2012)

Tesseract said:


> No, this is bad advice.
> 
> *Any* electronic product imported into the EU must be certified as EMC compliant. For most consumer and industrial products the manufacturer can simply state the device conforms and slap a "CE" mark on it (so-called "self-declaration"), but for any device used in an on-road vehicle the much more stringent "e" mark is required, and this mark can only be received through formal testing by an approved testing laboratory (e.g. - TUV).
> 
> I have heard that some people have used regular CE-marked components in an EV and then had the whole vehicle tested for EMC (around 1.500E, IIRC). Whether that is a more appealing route to take than using products with the e-mark (which, theoretically, will let you skip the whole-vehicle test) I'll leave to the individual to decide.


You are confusing two things here.
1) For import from a producer you must meet the regulation and certificates applying in EU. If you for example are an OEM for the Automobile industry you have to bee CE-certified and meeting the requirements for the production. This is required if you are selling your products on the market and if you do not want to make the complete test for each vehicle you sell.

2) This does not apply to DIY. In a DIY you make the whole test for your vehicle as you have a lot of selfmade equipment inside. There is (usually)no way around that

PS: I have gone through TUV both with inverter and car. I can also post you a video of a process of a guy going through TUV with an inverter which is not certified for automobile use

Here it is
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fnoH_QdXSyo


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## Eric (Sep 9, 2012)

Just got of the phone with the Zapi controller dealership, they can supply me anything i want, not a problem. All is CE marked, but not automotive.

So i called the RDW, these are the guys that will decide if i get my EV registered or not. I need to have EMC testcertificates for all electronic parts used or i can have my whole car tested without any EMC certificates. If the test come out good i will get my EV registered.
Or, i can have the car tested myself on a certified test location and take the testresults to the RDW and they will use that to register my EV.

Lots of stuff before that, and the more certificates and date i can hand over on testing day the better it will be.

Its also to important to have weight rapports from before and after the EV installation. If i dont have that there will be an expensive roadtest as well.


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## gunnarhs (Apr 24, 2012)

Eric said:


> Just got of the phone with the Zapi controller dealership, they can supply me anything i want, not a problem. All is CE marked, but not automotive.
> 
> So i called the RDW, these are the guys that will decide if i get my EV registered or not. I need to have EMC testcertificates for all electronic parts used or i can have my whole car tested without any EMC certificates. If the test come out good i will get my EV registered.
> Or, i can have the car tested myself on a certified test location and take the testresults to the RDW and they will use that to register my EV.
> ...


Ok Eric, good luck with that. take a look on the video-link I posted in above answer to Tesseract. There was a longer version of it stored by WDR (West-Deutscher-Rundfunk) which documented the process excactly but I could not find it.
As my previous advice was legal, read the other answers too (from Tesseract) regarding the technical aspect. The more certified products you use you minimize of course the problem of EMI. The main problem is usually the Inverter-Motor combination, and the source is most often the cableing around the inverter /DC-DC-converter.


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## kennybobby (Aug 10, 2012)

*EMC pre-testing*

The RDW site indicates that electric vehicles must meet the EMC of R10. Do you know if that requirement only involves radiated emissions, or is there also an immunity requirement? You can make antenna devices to detect magnetic or electric fields with an oscilloscope that may be useful for diy testing of emissions before paying out for the certified te$t.


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## gunnarhs (Apr 24, 2012)

*Re: EMC pre-testing*



kennybobby said:


> The RDW site indicates that electric vehicles must meet the EMC of R10. Do you know if that requirement only involves radiated emissions, or is there also an immunity requirement? You can make antenna devices to detect magnetic or electric fields with an oscilloscope that may be useful for diy testing of emissions before paying out for the certified te$t.


If I understand you correctly, by immunity you mean the vulnerability of your own equipment against outside emission?
In our case there were only radiated emissions which were tested, both in car and inverter tested by TUV (the inverter was for other application though).


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## Eric (Sep 9, 2012)

Gunnarhs, i had a quick look at the video but will look at it again, my German isnt that good but i will trybto understand it all.

Kenny, with radiation you mean the electro magnetic signals coming from the car/controller/motor? If yes than it is only that as far as i know now. But i will have to check that again, good point.


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## kennybobby (Aug 10, 2012)

*EMC testing*

Yes you have it correctly. Immunity testing looks at how susceptible your device may be to get disrupted due to an outside source of EM radiation. The radiated emissions testing looks at how much EM radiation your device generates that might interfere with other equipment. The tests usually involve a specified E- or H-field over a given distance and across a frequency range.

If you only have to pass radiated emissions then you could easily set up to check this on your own before the money test. Can you get the detailed specs of the field strengths and frequency range?


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## Eric (Sep 9, 2012)

Field en frequency specs must be available somewere, ill have a look for them. This might be an interesting thing to find out.


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## gunnarhs (Apr 24, 2012)

Eric said:


> Field en frequency specs must be available somewere, ill have a look for them. This might be an interesting thing to find out.


EU-Directive:
http://ec.europa.eu/enterprise/sectors/electrical/files/emc_guide__updated_20100208_v3_en.pdf

EU-Standards: (you can find Netherlands in the list)
http://www.etsi.org/services/etsi-d...44-etsi-national-standards-organisations-nsos

For ex: Germany
http://www.dke.de/de/infocenter/Seiten/ArtikelDetails.aspx?eslShopItemID=99bf66a4-ea6a-4839-a174-593a29ccce33

Look especially at 
ISO 6469 (General safety for EV)
ISO 7637 (12-24 V system),
ISO 11451 (Part1-4) Immunity of passenger cars and commercial vehicles to electrical disturbances 
ISO 11452 Measuring and testing of 11451 , very important (http://www.ets-lindgren.com/pdf/AutomotiveComponentEMCTesting.pdf)
ISO 14572 (Shielding of cables at different voltages)
ISO 16750 (Part1-2) Effects on environment

Concentrate on the emission part, the immunity is more relevant for certified EV OEM-products 
(the immunity of existing 12v system must though be maintained)


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

Eric said:


> Just found this, www.zapiinc.com, they have a Dutch reseller and their website says all products have CE certificates, wich includes electromagnetic compatibility.
> 
> I guess ill give them a call tomorrow and see if this is correct and if they can supply the necessary documents to prove it.


Hi Eric
I found this site quite interesting
I asked about the H3 controler
The reply I got was - 
I can tell you that the controller can only be set for speed (voltage) control, and not torque (current) control.


Not ideal for an EV!


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## dtbaker (Jan 5, 2008)

The 'old-tech' standby controllers in many forklifts are from Curtis. They've been around a LONG time. The 1221c or 1231 series are simple, reliable, and cheap.... but for DC motors and fairly low performance. you can build a very usable EV, but not very high performance.


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## Eric (Sep 9, 2012)

Low performance is enough for me, just need to go to work and back home every day. I have other cars for performance


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## Eric (Sep 9, 2012)

Duncan said:


> Hi Eric
> 
> I can tell you that the controller can only be set for speed (voltage) control, and not torque (current) control.
> 
> ...


But the Zapi i was looking at is rated at 96v and 500A, if i remember correctly a soliton has 300A?


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## Qer (May 7, 2008)

Eric said:


> But the Zapi i was looking at is rated at 96v and 500A, if i remember correctly a soliton has 300A?


600, 1000 or 3000A. Just add money...

http://www.evnetics.com/evnetics-products/soliton-detailed-specifications/


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

Eric said:


> But the Zapi i was looking at is rated at 96v and 500A, if i remember correctly a soliton has 300A?


Hi Eric
Check that the Zapi does current control 
A controller with voltage control will only be drivable at all if it is very underpowered

Current control feels great and is easy to drive
Voltage control will be insanely sensitive at low rpms


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