# [EVDL] The solution to clutchless shifting



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

The clutch + synchro mechanism is quite a primitive way to match shaft
speeds in a gearbox. It makes perfect sense in a ICE where it is quite
a simple and effective solution, but, EVs can do so much better! An
electric motor and motor controller can in theory easily match the
input and output shaft speeds to enable rapid shifting without a
clutch. On an AC motor and controller this should involve little more
than the addition of a transmission output shaft speed sensor, the
rest is a matter of implementing the necessary controls in software.
Sadly it seems no vehicle inverter manufacturer supports such a
feature. Although, a lot of AC based EVs run in a single gear and
require no shifting so there's no problem to begin with.

Most of us are of course stuck with forklift technology where
implementing such a feature is more useful but also a bit more
difficult. The basic idea is to have the motor controller speed up or
slow down the motor to match the desired gear to be shifted into. The
driver will indicate which gear he intends to shift into by pressing a
"up" or "down" button on the shift lever or by some other suitable
means. The controller will make sure the gearbox is in neutral before
speeding up or slowing down the motor to match the desired gear, when
the gears are matched a buzzer or light will indicate that it's ok to
shift. If the system matches gears fast enough the buzzer or light may
not even be needed.

A coworker and I have been contemplating some ideas for how to simply
implement such a solution. Since I recently had an addition to the
family I will probably never get around to testing any of this but
perhaps someone else might. The most elegant solution would be to
design this into the main drive controller but that's not an option to
most of us (are you listening Otmar???).

The first solution we thought of would be to add a control system
around the main motor controller using the throttle input to speed up
the motor and a external breaking circuit to slow it down or possibly
even the plug breaking feature in the cursit controllers.. We rejected
this idea because relying on the characteristics of the motor
controller can be problematic, and were the control system to fail,
the motor controller can over rev the motor.

The idea we liked the most was to use a very simple low power
controller with mild plug breaking to speed up or slow down the motor
while in neutral, the main controller will be disabled at this time.
This gear shifting controller will only be in operation during
shifting so we don't care much about its efficiency. Current can be
limited by a resistor and an IGBT module can be used for the switching
thereby eliminating a lot of the complexities usually involved in
designing a controller. Since it only has to be powerful enough to
speed up the motor under no load we don't have to worry too much about
controller runaway etc, so a simple dumb PWM switcher will do.

The gear shifting controller will have to keep track of what gear
you're in but this is trivial since it knows the shaft speed ratio. My
fiat transmission has a neutral switch on it that can be used to
figure out when we're in neutral or we can again look at the shaft
ratio (if it's changing we're in neutral). The speed matching can be
implemented using PID control if you want to get fancy, however I
suspect simpler control scheme like bang-bang will work to get you
close enough to the desired shaft speed that the synchros can do the
rest with minimal effort.

With a well designed system you should even be able to shift faster
than a clutched conversion.

Well, there you go, just an idea

- Peter

-- 
www.electric-lemon.com

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

You are a little late. I think TCI already has done this. tci.com .

They have a $600.00 electronic paddle shifter kits that allows super fast 
shifts of a electronic control transmission. A fiend of mind who is a Link 
engineer who is into road racing, replace all the mechanical shift linkages 
with super fast linear actuators. It is a classic sport car, which he 
maintains the clutch for street driving, but in racing mode, does not use 
the clutch.

Roland


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Peter Gabrielsson" <[email protected]xxx.xxx>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, December 26, 2007 11:32 PM
Subject: [EVDL] The solution to clutchless shifting


> The clutch + synchro mechanism is quite a primitive way to match shaft
> speeds in a gearbox. It makes perfect sense in a ICE where it is quite
> a simple and effective solution, but, EVs can do so much better! An
> electric motor and motor controller can in theory easily match the
> input and output shaft speeds to enable rapid shifting without a
> clutch. On an AC motor and controller this should involve little more
> than the addition of a transmission output shaft speed sensor, the
> rest is a matter of implementing the necessary controls in software.
> Sadly it seems no vehicle inverter manufacturer supports such a
> feature. Although, a lot of AC based EVs run in a single gear and
> require no shifting so there's no problem to begin with.
>
> Most of us are of course stuck with forklift technology where
> implementing such a feature is more useful but also a bit more
> difficult. The basic idea is to have the motor controller speed up or
> slow down the motor to match the desired gear to be shifted into. The
> driver will indicate which gear he intends to shift into by pressing a
> "up" or "down" button on the shift lever or by some other suitable
> means. The controller will make sure the gearbox is in neutral before
> speeding up or slowing down the motor to match the desired gear, when
> the gears are matched a buzzer or light will indicate that it's ok to
> shift. If the system matches gears fast enough the buzzer or light may
> not even be needed.
>
> A coworker and I have been contemplating some ideas for how to simply
> implement such a solution. Since I recently had an addition to the
> family I will probably never get around to testing any of this but
> perhaps someone else might. The most elegant solution would be to
> design this into the main drive controller but that's not an option to
> most of us (are you listening Otmar???).
>
> The first solution we thought of would be to add a control system
> around the main motor controller using the throttle input to speed up
> the motor and a external breaking circuit to slow it down or possibly
> even the plug breaking feature in the cursit controllers.. We rejected
> this idea because relying on the characteristics of the motor
> controller can be problematic, and were the control system to fail,
> the motor controller can over rev the motor.
>
> The idea we liked the most was to use a very simple low power
> controller with mild plug breaking to speed up or slow down the motor
> while in neutral, the main controller will be disabled at this time.
> This gear shifting controller will only be in operation during
> shifting so we don't care much about its efficiency. Current can be
> limited by a resistor and an IGBT module can be used for the switching
> thereby eliminating a lot of the complexities usually involved in
> designing a controller. Since it only has to be powerful enough to
> speed up the motor under no load we don't have to worry too much about
> controller runaway etc, so a simple dumb PWM switcher will do.
>
> The gear shifting controller will have to keep track of what gear
> you're in but this is trivial since it knows the shaft speed ratio. My
> fiat transmission has a neutral switch on it that can be used to
> figure out when we're in neutral or we can again look at the shaft
> ratio (if it's changing we're in neutral). The speed matching can be
> implemented using PID control if you want to get fancy, however I
> suspect simpler control scheme like bang-bang will work to get you
> close enough to the desired shaft speed that the synchros can do the
> rest with minimal effort.
>
> With a well designed system you should even be able to shift faster
> than a clutched conversion.
>
> Well, there you go, just an idea
>
> - Peter
>
> -- 
> www.electric-lemon.com
>
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
> 

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----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Well, I suspected someone must have done this, it is a fairly obvious
idea. I considered mentioning replacing the shifter with linear
actuators but I thought that was getting a bit ahead of myself.

Thanks




> Roland Wiench <[email protected]> wrote:
> > You are a little late. I think TCI already has done this. tci.com .
> >
> > They have a $600.00 electronic paddle shifter kits that allows super fast
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

It seems like you would need regen (or dynamic or plug braking) in
order for this to work well -- in order to allow upshifting faster by
slowing the motor down faster than it would naturally spin down. I
remember reading about a giant military semi truck that was set up to
engage the jake brake upon letting off the accelerator, otherwise it
was impossible to upshift because the truck would slow down faster
than the big diesel engine would... your average EV isn't a 250,000lb
truck, but it sounds like it's the same issue with upshifting rapidly
if you rely on the motor to naturally spin down.

Z



> Peter Gabrielsson <[email protected]> wrote:
> > Well, I suspected someone must have done this, it is a fairly obvious
> > idea. I considered mentioning replacing the shifter with linear
> > actuators but I thought that was getting a bit ahead of myself.
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

yes, I did mention plug braking



> Zeke Yewdall <[email protected]> wrote:
> > It seems like you would need regen (or dynamic or plug braking) in
> > order for this to work well -- in order to allow upshifting faster by
> > slowing the motor down faster than it would naturally spin down. I
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

So you did... I should read more carefully....

Z



> Peter Gabrielsson <[email protected]> wrote:
> > yes, I did mention plug braking
> >
> >
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Another solution would be to add an eddy current brake to the tail
shaft. It might actually be easier.





> Zeke Yewdall <[email protected]> wrote:
> > So you did... I should read more carefully....
> >
> > Z
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> It seems like you would need regen (or dynamic or plug braking) in
> order for this to work well -- in order to allow upshifting faster by
> slowing the motor down faster than it would naturally spin down. I

Funny that this should come up. I wrote a piece of software that would
attempt to rev-match the engine and vehicle speed for a shift. The
software detected the 'blip' of the accelerator pedal indicating
a downshift, and would govern the engine to the next expected gear
ratio for a couple of seconds.

No blip = next lower engine speed, with blip = next higher engine
speed. Seems as though that should be even easier on a symmetrical
4-quadrant motor drive. You needed to enter rear-end axle ratio and
transmission ratios for this software to work. I was debating clutch
vs. clutchless on my EV project, and since I am writing a bunch of
software for a body control computer module, that seems like I should
be able to add that function pretty easily.

-Dale


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

OK, I thought I was done with this whole silly thread. Here you go. If you 
are really and seriously interested in a clutchless transmission then just 
put your money where your mouth is and buy a G-Force GT-50 transmission: 
http://www.g-forcetransmissions.com/tran_gt-50.asp Of course this is the 
front wheel drive model. For you rear wheel drive clutchless shift fanatics 
try one of the following offerings: 
http://www.g-forcetransmissions.com/productoverview.asp The GT-50 can be 
shifted manually or with an air shifter. I wanted to use one on the front 
end of "Gone Postal" but we ran short of funds. Actually they are extremely 
reasonable and if I remember correctly they cost less than a Zilla Z-2K. 
They will handle enormous amounts of horsepower as well. If you are putting 
one in your clutchless 96 volt Geo Metro with a Curtis squealer it will be 
the only part left when the rest of it goes to the scrap heap.

Roderick Wilde
"Suck Amps EV Racing"
www.suckamps.com 

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Here is Lee=B4s solution a few years back.

terveisin,
Osmo

--------------------
It's done closed-loop. Exactly the same as you do in an AC controller =

with an
induction motor. Virtually every tape deck, CD player, disk drive, and
anything else where they need a motor to run at a precise speed does =

it this
way. You'll find they are as often DC motors as AC motors.

You need some kind of speed sensor to know how fast the motor is =

actually
turning. Your circuit compares the desired speed to the actual speed =

to get
an error signal. This error signal drives the motor faster/slower =

until the
error is zero.

Get yourself a few little DC PM motors, and an opamp like an LM324, =

and a few
other simple parts as shown. Here comes another bad old ASCII =

schematic; view
it with a fixed-width font.
___________________________________________________
| 100k 100k |
|__/\/\_____/\/\__ |
| 1uf | |
|____||__| +V |
| || | | |
| |\ | ____|/ c Q1 NPN |
|__|-\ | | b |\ e 2N4401 | speed
100k | \__|__| |___________ drive | sensing
input__/\/\_________| / 1/4 | | | motor | motor
| | |+/LM324 |____|/ e Q2 PNP _|_ _|_
_|_ > |/ opamp b |\ c 2N4403 / \ _ _ _ / \
1uf ___ > | \___/ \___/
| > 100k gnd | |
| |  amplifier gnd gnd
gnd gnd

All motors are just little PM DC motors, like you find in toys. The =

"drive
motor" simulates your traction motor. The "speed sensing motor" is =

being used
as a generator, to generate a voltage proportional to rpm.

To begin, have no connection between the drive motor and speed =

sensing motor.
Connect some voltage to the input (say, from a pot connected between =

+V and
ground). This is your throttle; adjusting its voltage up/down makes =

the motor
run faster/slower. 0v is stopped; +V volts is full speed.

Now, add a 3rd PM DC motor; this one connected between the input and =

ground.
The *speed* of this motor sets the input voltage. This motor would be
connected mechanically to your vehicle's drive shaft or something =

that tells
how fast the wheels are turning. Connect the shafts of drive motor =

and speed
sensing motor (with a bit of plastic tubing or wire insulation, for =

example).

What you will find is that whatever speed you spin the input motor, =

the drive
motor will run at exactly the same speed. It behaves as if there is a
mechanical connection between the two of them!

It works this way because the opamp adjusts its output so its + and - =

inputs
are at the same voltage. This only happens when the input motor and =

speed
sensing motor produce the same voltage, which means they are at the same
speed.

All resistor values are equal, so input speed =3D output speed. If you =

pick
resistor ratios to match your transmission gear ratios, then the =

motors run
with precisely that speed ratio.

For an EV, the drive motor is far larger, and the amplifier is your
controller. It doesn't matter if they are AC or DC.

...This circuit is for a
proportional-integral control; this is adequate for this application. =

If the
"power amp" is a typical PWM controller, it can ramp up the motor very
quickly; in a small fraction of a second. You will actually need to =

*slow*
the response time; thus the integrating capacitors.

...I agree it won't be a trivial problem that works immediately with =

"cookbook"
values and a simple circuit like I showed. But, the enhancements =

needed to
get it to actually work are not that great, either. I think you will =

find
that a few little tweaks in the gain and feedback compensation are =

all it
will take... As a rule, DC motors are the *preferred* solution when =

very fast,
precise servo response is needed. They don't have the cogging, phase
instability, torque pulsations, and oscillations associated with AC or
stepper type drives.
---------------------


Dale Ulan kirjoitti 28.12.2007 kello 3.07:

>> It seems like you would need regen (or dynamic or plug braking) in
>> order for this to work well -- in order to allow upshifting faster by
>> slowing the motor down faster than it would naturally spin down. I
>
> Funny that this should come up. I wrote a piece of software that would
> attempt to rev-match the engine and vehicle speed for a shift. The
> software detected the 'blip' of the accelerator pedal indicating
> a downshift, and would govern the engine to the next expected gear
> ratio for a couple of seconds.
>
> No blip =3D next lower engine speed, with blip =3D next higher engine
> speed. Seems as though that should be even easier on a symmetrical
> 4-quadrant motor drive. You needed to enter rear-end axle ratio and
> transmission ratios for this software to work. I was debating clutch
> vs. clutchless on my EV project, and since I am writing a bunch of
> software for a body control computer module, that seems like I should
> be able to add that function pretty easily.
>
> -Dale
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev


_______________________________________________
For subscription options, see
http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Thank you, as usual that's an excellent post from Lee.

To make his circuit work with several gear ratios you could use one
opamp for each gear ratio and select between their output using an
analog mux. If you're using a motor + controller without regen or
plug braking you'll need to add that feature somehow, I'm kind of
leaning towards the eddy current brake myself.

As mentioned previously; I'm not too crazy about using the main motor
controller for speeding the motor up. At least not in case of series
wound DC machines. However, If you add some fault checking circuitry
it can probably be done safely.







> Osmo S. <[email protected]> wrote:
> > Here is Lee=B4s solution a few years back.
> >
> > terveisin,
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

what about using an alternator to charge your 12VDC system, as Wayne does =

at ev-blue.com? will that slow down the motor any useful amount?

----- Original Message ----- =

From: "Peter Gabrielsson" <[email protected]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, December 28, 2007 4:52 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] The solution to clutchless shifting


Thank you, as usual that's an excellent post from Lee.

To make his circuit work with several gear ratios you could use one
opamp for each gear ratio and select between their output using an
analog mux. If you're using a motor + controller without regen or
plug braking you'll need to add that feature somehow, I'm kind of
leaning towards the eddy current brake myself.

As mentioned previously; I'm not too crazy about using the main motor
controller for speeding the motor up. At least not in case of series
wound DC machines. However, If you add some fault checking circuitry
it can probably be done safely.







> Osmo S. <[email protected]> wrote:
> > Here is Lee=B4s solution a few years back.
> >
> > terveisin,
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

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----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Josh Creel" <[email protected]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, December 28, 2007 3:52 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] The solution to clutchless shifting


what about using an alternator to charge your 12VDC system, as Wayne does
at ev-blue.com? will that slow down the motor any useful amount?


Hello Josh,

Yes, A alternator that you can switch a lot a load on to it will slow a EV 
just like compression braking of a engine. I mainly doing it for safety, so 
I do not go over 90 mph down the steep icy snow pack roads we have here in 
Montana.

In the summer or when the roads are dry, I can remove most of the load by 
switching off the 12 volt accessories, if I want the EV to start to roller 
coast the hills which at times will go 3 to 5 miles with out any additional 
power.

I am running a 7000 lb EV, so I need a lot of load to hold back the EV at 
the normal speed, so I install a very large Delco 7 wire 145 amp 
inverter-alternator with external regulator controls that I can select 13.5, 
14, 14.5, and 15 volt output which is at full load.

A inverter unit that is design for this unit, is by Dynamote Company is 
rated for 6kw at 120 vac at 60hz and also provides the 12 volt accessory 
power too.

To load up this inverter up the load I need to slow down this EV, I have 
three 120 VAC electric heaters, two AC pumps, three AC fans, three DC motors 
for the A/C, power steering, vacuum pump, 8 contactors, over 30 indicators 
lamps, over 30 readout indications, over 50 lighted control switches, and a 
sound system.

One advantage I have with this setup, is that the main motor pilot shaft is 
also connected to these accessories drive unit by use of a electric clutch. 
Any time I let up on the accelerator which removes the controller power from 
the motor, the electric clutch connects the main motor to the accessory 
drive. During this time, the battery ampere is now at 0 amps and the 
alternator is still generating accessories 12 volt and 120 volt units.

Now when I press the accelerator. the micro switch circuit disconnects the 
accessory drive from the main motor and then switches on two contactors that 
provide power to several electric motors which then drive the accessories.

This did not happen all at once. I first added a standard 2 wire 
alternator to keep a 135 AH deep cycle 12 volt battery charge. In the 2 
wire alternator, there is a small control wire call the R-wire that plugs 
into the alternator. This is control by the ignition switch which turns on 
the Regulator. When the ignition switch is in the start position, this then 
turns off the R-wire or regulator while you are turning over a starter.

There starter will normally draw over the rated ampere of the alternator, so 
this is why the regulator is shut down at this time.

In a EV, using the 2 wire alternator, you can put a on dash switch in series 
with the R-wire so you can turn off the regulator which in turn, prevents 
the alternator from generating any current. Normally this R-wire circuit 
goes through a dash indicator which provides about 7 to 10 ohms of 
resistance.

If you do not use a alternator indicator lamp, you can install a resistor 
with that value. This resistance sets the regulator to the right starting 
voltage which is about 13.5 volts on a charge battery.

On my large industrial inverter-alternator, it uses a selector switch that I 
can select the minimum and maximum charging voltage.

Roland 

_______________________________________________
For subscription options, see
http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

how could u convert the extra voltage to pack voltage and return it to your 
drive pack and use, say a 200Amp alternator rig it so that when you let up 
on the accelarater it starts dumping that energy to your drive pack?


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Roland Wiench" <[email protected]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, December 28, 2007 8:00 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] The solution to clutchless shifting


>
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Josh Creel" <[email protected]>
> To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
> Sent: Friday, December 28, 2007 3:52 PM
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] The solution to clutchless shifting
>
>
> what about using an alternator to charge your 12VDC system, as Wayne does
> at ev-blue.com? will that slow down the motor any useful amount?
>
>
> Hello Josh,
>
> Yes, A alternator that you can switch a lot a load on to it will slow a EV 
> just like compression braking of a engine. I mainly doing it for safety, 
> so I do not go over 90 mph down the steep icy snow pack roads we have here 
> in Montana.
>
> In the summer or when the roads are dry, I can remove most of the load by 
> switching off the 12 volt accessories, if I want the EV to start to roller 
> coast the hills which at times will go 3 to 5 miles with out any 
> additional power.
>
> I am running a 7000 lb EV, so I need a lot of load to hold back the EV at 
> the normal speed, so I install a very large Delco 7 wire 145 amp 
> inverter-alternator with external regulator controls that I can select 
> 13.5, 14, 14.5, and 15 volt output which is at full load.
>
> A inverter unit that is design for this unit, is by Dynamote Company is 
> rated for 6kw at 120 vac at 60hz and also provides the 12 volt accessory 
> power too.
>
> To load up this inverter up the load I need to slow down this EV, I have 
> three 120 VAC electric heaters, two AC pumps, three AC fans, three DC 
> motors for the A/C, power steering, vacuum pump, 8 contactors, over 30 
> indicators lamps, over 30 readout indications, over 50 lighted control 
> switches, and a sound system.
>
> One advantage I have with this setup, is that the main motor pilot shaft 
> is also connected to these accessories drive unit by use of a electric 
> clutch. Any time I let up on the accelerator which removes the controller 
> power from the motor, the electric clutch connects the main motor to the 
> accessory drive. During this time, the battery ampere is now at 0 amps 
> and the alternator is still generating accessories 12 volt and 120 volt 
> units.
>
> Now when I press the accelerator. the micro switch circuit disconnects the 
> accessory drive from the main motor and then switches on two contactors 
> that provide power to several electric motors which then drive the 
> accessories.
>
> This did not happen all at once. I first added a standard 2 wire 
> alternator to keep a 135 AH deep cycle 12 volt battery charge. In the 2 
> wire alternator, there is a small control wire call the R-wire that plugs 
> into the alternator. This is control by the ignition switch which turns 
> on the Regulator. When the ignition switch is in the start position, this 
> then turns off the R-wire or regulator while you are turning over a 
> starter.
>
> There starter will normally draw over the rated ampere of the alternator, 
> so this is why the regulator is shut down at this time.
>
> In a EV, using the 2 wire alternator, you can put a on dash switch in 
> series with the R-wire so you can turn off the regulator which in turn, 
> prevents the alternator from generating any current. Normally this R-wire 
> circuit goes through a dash indicator which provides about 7 to 10 ohms of 
> resistance.
>
> If you do not use a alternator indicator lamp, you can install a resistor 
> with that value. This resistance sets the regulator to the right starting 
> voltage which is about 13.5 volts on a charge battery.
>
> On my large industrial inverter-alternator, it uses a selector switch that 
> I can select the minimum and maximum charging voltage.
>
> Roland
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
> 

_______________________________________________
For subscription options, see
http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

what kind of EV do you have? I'd like to know more about your set up, do 
you have any picks?


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Roland Wiench" <[email protected]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, December 28, 2007 8:00 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] The solution to clutchless shifting


>
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Josh Creel" <[email protected]>
> To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
> Sent: Friday, December 28, 2007 3:52 PM
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] The solution to clutchless shifting
>
>
> what about using an alternator to charge your 12VDC system, as Wayne does
> at ev-blue.com? will that slow down the motor any useful amount?
>
>
> Hello Josh,
>
> Yes, A alternator that you can switch a lot a load on to it will slow a EV 
> just like compression braking of a engine. I mainly doing it for safety, 
> so I do not go over 90 mph down the steep icy snow pack roads we have here 
> in Montana.
>
> In the summer or when the roads are dry, I can remove most of the load by 
> switching off the 12 volt accessories, if I want the EV to start to roller 
> coast the hills which at times will go 3 to 5 miles with out any 
> additional power.
>
> I am running a 7000 lb EV, so I need a lot of load to hold back the EV at 
> the normal speed, so I install a very large Delco 7 wire 145 amp 
> inverter-alternator with external regulator controls that I can select 
> 13.5, 14, 14.5, and 15 volt output which is at full load.
>
> A inverter unit that is design for this unit, is by Dynamote Company is 
> rated for 6kw at 120 vac at 60hz and also provides the 12 volt accessory 
> power too.
>
> To load up this inverter up the load I need to slow down this EV, I have 
> three 120 VAC electric heaters, two AC pumps, three AC fans, three DC 
> motors for the A/C, power steering, vacuum pump, 8 contactors, over 30 
> indicators lamps, over 30 readout indications, over 50 lighted control 
> switches, and a sound system.
>
> One advantage I have with this setup, is that the main motor pilot shaft 
> is also connected to these accessories drive unit by use of a electric 
> clutch. Any time I let up on the accelerator which removes the controller 
> power from the motor, the electric clutch connects the main motor to the 
> accessory drive. During this time, the battery ampere is now at 0 amps 
> and the alternator is still generating accessories 12 volt and 120 volt 
> units.
>
> Now when I press the accelerator. the micro switch circuit disconnects the 
> accessory drive from the main motor and then switches on two contactors 
> that provide power to several electric motors which then drive the 
> accessories.
>
> This did not happen all at once. I first added a standard 2 wire 
> alternator to keep a 135 AH deep cycle 12 volt battery charge. In the 2 
> wire alternator, there is a small control wire call the R-wire that plugs 
> into the alternator. This is control by the ignition switch which turns 
> on the Regulator. When the ignition switch is in the start position, this 
> then turns off the R-wire or regulator while you are turning over a 
> starter.
>
> There starter will normally draw over the rated ampere of the alternator, 
> so this is why the regulator is shut down at this time.
>
> In a EV, using the 2 wire alternator, you can put a on dash switch in 
> series with the R-wire so you can turn off the regulator which in turn, 
> prevents the alternator from generating any current. Normally this R-wire 
> circuit goes through a dash indicator which provides about 7 to 10 ohms of 
> resistance.
>
> If you do not use a alternator indicator lamp, you can install a resistor 
> with that value. This resistance sets the regulator to the right starting 
> voltage which is about 13.5 volts on a charge battery.
>
> On my large industrial inverter-alternator, it uses a selector switch that 
> I can select the minimum and maximum charging voltage.
>
> Roland
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
> 

_______________________________________________
For subscription options, see
http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Hello Josh,

You cannot do that. You must disconnect the battery from the load and than 
charge the battery. The charge voltage is going through the battery from 
negative to positive. Then the charger or generator circuit is remove from 
the battery and the battery is connected to the load which discharges the 
battery with the current going inside the battery from positive to negative.

You cannot charge the battery and use it at the same time. Remember that 
you car alternator is off the line while the battery is turning over the 
starter. You have a lot of equipment to do this with a DC motor.

My old CableForm controller had a REGEN circuit in it where there was a bank 
of capacitors. a extra 900 amp triac, a 600 amp shunt contactor, a two pole 
600 amp reversing type of contactor. This type of circuit raises the voltage 
higher than the battery pack voltage during the off cycle to the motor. 
When the motor fields collapses, the motor has to be rewired as a generator 
and the current is now fed back though the free wheeling diode to the 
batteries.

Today this is not cost effected for a DC motor for the amount of energy you 
can generate to the batteries. Tremendous amount of maintenance on this type 
of system. Best to use a AC system.

Roland


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Josh Creel" <[email protected]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, December 28, 2007 6:26 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] The solution to clutchless shifting


> how could u convert the extra voltage to pack voltage and return it to 
> your
> drive pack and use, say a 200Amp alternator rig it so that when you let up
> on the accelarater it starts dumping that energy to your drive pack?
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Roland Wiench" <[email protected]>
> To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
> Sent: Friday, December 28, 2007 8:00 PM
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] The solution to clutchless shifting
>
>
> >
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message ----- 
> > From: "Josh Creel" <[email protected]>
> > To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
> > Sent: Friday, December 28, 2007 3:52 PM
> > Subject: Re: [EVDL] The solution to clutchless shifting
> >
> >
> > what about using an alternator to charge your 12VDC system, as Wayne 
> > does
> > at ev-blue.com? will that slow down the motor any useful amount?
> >
> >
> > Hello Josh,
> >
> > Yes, A alternator that you can switch a lot a load on to it will slow a 
> > EV
> > just like compression braking of a engine. I mainly doing it for 
> > safety,
> > so I do not go over 90 mph down the steep icy snow pack roads we have 
> > here
> > in Montana.
> >
> > In the summer or when the roads are dry, I can remove most of the load 
> > by
> > switching off the 12 volt accessories, if I want the EV to start to 
> > roller
> > coast the hills which at times will go 3 to 5 miles with out any
> > additional power.
> >
> > I am running a 7000 lb EV, so I need a lot of load to hold back the EV 
> > at
> > the normal speed, so I install a very large Delco 7 wire 145 amp
> > inverter-alternator with external regulator controls that I can select
> > 13.5, 14, 14.5, and 15 volt output which is at full load.
> >
> > A inverter unit that is design for this unit, is by Dynamote Company is
> > rated for 6kw at 120 vac at 60hz and also provides the 12 volt accessory
> > power too.
> >
> > To load up this inverter up the load I need to slow down this EV, I have
> > three 120 VAC electric heaters, two AC pumps, three AC fans, three DC
> > motors for the A/C, power steering, vacuum pump, 8 contactors, over 30
> > indicators lamps, over 30 readout indications, over 50 lighted control
> > switches, and a sound system.
> >
> > One advantage I have with this setup, is that the main motor pilot shaft
> > is also connected to these accessories drive unit by use of a electric
> > clutch. Any time I let up on the accelerator which removes the 
> > controller
> > power from the motor, the electric clutch connects the main motor to the
> > accessory drive. During this time, the battery ampere is now at 0 amps
> > and the alternator is still generating accessories 12 volt and 120 volt
> > units.
> >
> > Now when I press the accelerator. the micro switch circuit disconnects 
> > the
> > accessory drive from the main motor and then switches on two contactors
> > that provide power to several electric motors which then drive the
> > accessories.
> >
> > This did not happen all at once. I first added a standard 2 wire
> > alternator to keep a 135 AH deep cycle 12 volt battery charge. In the 2
> > wire alternator, there is a small control wire call the R-wire that 
> > plugs
> > into the alternator. This is control by the ignition switch which turns
> > on the Regulator. When the ignition switch is in the start position, 
> > this
> > then turns off the R-wire or regulator while you are turning over a
> > starter.
> >
> > There starter will normally draw over the rated ampere of the 
> > alternator,
> > so this is why the regulator is shut down at this time.
> >
> > In a EV, using the 2 wire alternator, you can put a on dash switch in
> > series with the R-wire so you can turn off the regulator which in turn,
> > prevents the alternator from generating any current. Normally this 
> > R-wire
> > circuit goes through a dash indicator which provides about 7 to 10 ohms 
> > of
> > resistance.
> >
> > If you do not use a alternator indicator lamp, you can install a 
> > resistor
> > with that value. This resistance sets the regulator to the right 
> > starting
> > voltage which is about 13.5 volts on a charge battery.
> >
> > On my large industrial inverter-alternator, it uses a selector switch 
> > that
> > I can select the minimum and maximum charging voltage.
> >
> > Roland
> > _______________________________________________
> > For subscription options, see
> > http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
> >
>
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
> 

_______________________________________________
For subscription options, see
http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Roland Wiench <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> >
> > You cannot charge the battery and use it at the same time.
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

ok, lets put 2 battery packs in, run on one, charge the other, with the 
200amp alternator. install switching system in cab to swap packs when one 
is low.


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Roland Wiench" <[email protected]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, December 28, 2007 9:14 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] The solution to clutchless shifting


> Hello Josh,
>
> You cannot do that. You must disconnect the battery from the load and 
> than charge the battery. The charge voltage is going through the battery 
> from negative to positive. Then the charger or generator circuit is 
> remove from the battery and the battery is connected to the load which 
> discharges the battery with the current going inside the battery from 
> positive to negative.
>
> You cannot charge the battery and use it at the same time. Remember that 
> you car alternator is off the line while the battery is turning over the 
> starter. You have a lot of equipment to do this with a DC motor.
>
> My old CableForm controller had a REGEN circuit in it where there was a 
> bank of capacitors. a extra 900 amp triac, a 600 amp shunt contactor, a 
> two pole 600 amp reversing type of contactor. This type of circuit raises 
> the voltage higher than the battery pack voltage during the off cycle to 
> the motor. When the motor fields collapses, the motor has to be rewired as 
> a generator and the current is now fed back though the free wheeling diode 
> to the batteries.
>
> Today this is not cost effected for a DC motor for the amount of energy 
> you can generate to the batteries. Tremendous amount of maintenance on 
> this type of system. Best to use a AC system.
>
> Roland
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Josh Creel" <[email protected]>
> To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
> Sent: Friday, December 28, 2007 6:26 PM
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] The solution to clutchless shifting
>
>
>> how could u convert the extra voltage to pack voltage and return it to 
>> your
>> drive pack and use, say a 200Amp alternator rig it so that when you let 
>> up
>> on the accelarater it starts dumping that energy to your drive pack?
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>> From: "Roland Wiench" <[email protected]>
>> To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
>> Sent: Friday, December 28, 2007 8:00 PM
>> Subject: Re: [EVDL] The solution to clutchless shifting
>>
>>
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > ----- Original Message ----- 
>> > From: "Josh Creel" <[email protected]>
>> > To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
>> > Sent: Friday, December 28, 2007 3:52 PM
>> > Subject: Re: [EVDL] The solution to clutchless shifting
>> >
>> >
>> > what about using an alternator to charge your 12VDC system, as Wayne 
>> > does
>> > at ev-blue.com? will that slow down the motor any useful amount?
>> >
>> >
>> > Hello Josh,
>> >
>> > Yes, A alternator that you can switch a lot a load on to it will slow a 
>> > EV
>> > just like compression braking of a engine. I mainly doing it for 
>> > safety,
>> > so I do not go over 90 mph down the steep icy snow pack roads we have 
>> > here
>> > in Montana.
>> >
>> > In the summer or when the roads are dry, I can remove most of the load 
>> > by
>> > switching off the 12 volt accessories, if I want the EV to start to 
>> > roller
>> > coast the hills which at times will go 3 to 5 miles with out any
>> > additional power.
>> >
>> > I am running a 7000 lb EV, so I need a lot of load to hold back the EV 
>> > at
>> > the normal speed, so I install a very large Delco 7 wire 145 amp
>> > inverter-alternator with external regulator controls that I can select
>> > 13.5, 14, 14.5, and 15 volt output which is at full load.
>> >
>> > A inverter unit that is design for this unit, is by Dynamote Company is
>> > rated for 6kw at 120 vac at 60hz and also provides the 12 volt 
>> > accessory
>> > power too.
>> >
>> > To load up this inverter up the load I need to slow down this EV, I 
>> > have
>> > three 120 VAC electric heaters, two AC pumps, three AC fans, three DC
>> > motors for the A/C, power steering, vacuum pump, 8 contactors, over 30
>> > indicators lamps, over 30 readout indications, over 50 lighted control
>> > switches, and a sound system.
>> >
>> > One advantage I have with this setup, is that the main motor pilot 
>> > shaft
>> > is also connected to these accessories drive unit by use of a electric
>> > clutch. Any time I let up on the accelerator which removes the 
>> > controller
>> > power from the motor, the electric clutch connects the main motor to 
>> > the
>> > accessory drive. During this time, the battery ampere is now at 0 amps
>> > and the alternator is still generating accessories 12 volt and 120 volt
>> > units.
>> >
>> > Now when I press the accelerator. the micro switch circuit disconnects 
>> > the
>> > accessory drive from the main motor and then switches on two contactors
>> > that provide power to several electric motors which then drive the
>> > accessories.
>> >
>> > This did not happen all at once. I first added a standard 2 wire
>> > alternator to keep a 135 AH deep cycle 12 volt battery charge. In the 
>> > 2
>> > wire alternator, there is a small control wire call the R-wire that 
>> > plugs
>> > into the alternator. This is control by the ignition switch which 
>> > turns
>> > on the Regulator. When the ignition switch is in the start position, 
>> > this
>> > then turns off the R-wire or regulator while you are turning over a
>> > starter.
>> >
>> > There starter will normally draw over the rated ampere of the 
>> > alternator,
>> > so this is why the regulator is shut down at this time.
>> >
>> > In a EV, using the 2 wire alternator, you can put a on dash switch in
>> > series with the R-wire so you can turn off the regulator which in turn,
>> > prevents the alternator from generating any current. Normally this 
>> > R-wire
>> > circuit goes through a dash indicator which provides about 7 to 10 ohms 
>> > of
>> > resistance.
>> >
>> > If you do not use a alternator indicator lamp, you can install a 
>> > resistor
>> > with that value. This resistance sets the regulator to the right 
>> > starting
>> > voltage which is about 13.5 volts on a charge battery.
>> >
>> > On my large industrial inverter-alternator, it uses a selector switch 
>> > that
>> > I can select the minimum and maximum charging voltage.
>> >
>> > Roland
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > For subscription options, see
>> > http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>> >
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> For subscription options, see
>> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev 

_______________________________________________
For subscription options, see
http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

To load up this inverter up the load I need to slow down this EV, I have
> > three 120 VAC electric heaters, two AC pumps, three AC fans, three DC
> > motors for the A/C, power steering, vacuum pump, 8 contactors, over 30
> > indicators lamps, over 30 readout indications, over 50 lighted control
> > switches, and a sound system.
> >
> > One advantage I have with this setup, is that the main motor pilot shaft
> > is also connected to these accessories drive unit by use of a electric
> > clutch. Any time I let up on the accelerator which removes the 
> > controller
> > power from the motor, the electric clutch connects the main motor to the
> > accessory drive. During this time, the battery ampere is now at 0 amps
> > and the alternator is still generating accessories 12 volt and 120 volt
> > units.

my question is why don't you use instead of a inverter, convert that 145 amp 
15VDC from the alternator into drive pack voltage and tap it back into your 
battery drive pack? like Zeke said : you can use
the DC terminals of the battery as a buss to sum various loads and
sources, and whatever the net of these loads and sources will either
charge or discharge the battery, depending on whether there's more
input or output. There is no need to disconnect loads when charging,
or chargers when loading, unless the loads cannot stand the voltage of
the batteries under charge.

?????
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Roland Wiench" <[email protected]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, December 28, 2007 9:14 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] The solution to clutchless shifting


> Hello Josh,
>
> You cannot do that. You must disconnect the battery from the load and 
> than charge the battery. The charge voltage is going through the battery 
> from negative to positive. Then the charger or generator circuit is 
> remove from the battery and the battery is connected to the load which 
> discharges the battery with the current going inside the battery from 
> positive to negative.
>
> You cannot charge the battery and use it at the same time. Remember that 
> you car alternator is off the line while the battery is turning over the 
> starter. You have a lot of equipment to do this with a DC motor.
>
> My old CableForm controller had a REGEN circuit in it where there was a 
> bank of capacitors. a extra 900 amp triac, a 600 amp shunt contactor, a 
> two pole 600 amp reversing type of contactor. This type of circuit raises 
> the voltage higher than the battery pack voltage during the off cycle to 
> the motor. When the motor fields collapses, the motor has to be rewired as 
> a generator and the current is now fed back though the free wheeling diode 
> to the batteries.
>
> Today this is not cost effected for a DC motor for the amount of energy 
> you can generate to the batteries. Tremendous amount of maintenance on 
> this type of system. Best to use a AC system.
>
> Roland
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Josh Creel" <[email protected]>
> To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
> Sent: Friday, December 28, 2007 6:26 PM
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] The solution to clutchless shifting
>
>
>> how could u convert the extra voltage to pack voltage and return it to 
>> your
>> drive pack and use, say a 200Amp alternator rig it so that when you let 
>> up
>> on the accelarater it starts dumping that energy to your drive pack?
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>> From: "Roland Wiench" <[email protected]>
>> To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
>> Sent: Friday, December 28, 2007 8:00 PM
>> Subject: Re: [EVDL] The solution to clutchless shifting
>>
>>
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > ----- Original Message ----- 
>> > From: "Josh Creel" <[email protected]>
>> > To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
>> > Sent: Friday, December 28, 2007 3:52 PM
>> > Subject: Re: [EVDL] The solution to clutchless shifting
>> >
>> >
>> > what about using an alternator to charge your 12VDC system, as Wayne 
>> > does
>> > at ev-blue.com? will that slow down the motor any useful amount?
>> >
>> >
>> > Hello Josh,
>> >
>> > Yes, A alternator that you can switch a lot a load on to it will slow a 
>> > EV
>> > just like compression braking of a engine. I mainly doing it for 
>> > safety,
>> > so I do not go over 90 mph down the steep icy snow pack roads we have 
>> > here
>> > in Montana.
>> >
>> > In the summer or when the roads are dry, I can remove most of the load 
>> > by
>> > switching off the 12 volt accessories, if I want the EV to start to 
>> > roller
>> > coast the hills which at times will go 3 to 5 miles with out any
>> > additional power.
>> >
>> > I am running a 7000 lb EV, so I need a lot of load to hold back the EV 
>> > at
>> > the normal speed, so I install a very large Delco 7 wire 145 amp
>> > inverter-alternator with external regulator controls that I can select
>> > 13.5, 14, 14.5, and 15 volt output which is at full load.
>> >
>> > A inverter unit that is design for this unit, is by Dynamote Company is
>> > rated for 6kw at 120 vac at 60hz and also provides the 12 volt 
>> > accessory
>> > power too.
>> >
>> > To load up this inverter up the load I need to slow down this EV, I 
>> > have
>> > three 120 VAC electric heaters, two AC pumps, three AC fans, three DC
>> > motors for the A/C, power steering, vacuum pump, 8 contactors, over 30
>> > indicators lamps, over 30 readout indications, over 50 lighted control
>> > switches, and a sound system.
>> >
>> > One advantage I have with this setup, is that the main motor pilot 
>> > shaft
>> > is also connected to these accessories drive unit by use of a electric
>> > clutch. Any time I let up on the accelerator which removes the 
>> > controller
>> > power from the motor, the electric clutch connects the main motor to 
>> > the
>> > accessory drive. During this time, the battery ampere is now at 0 amps
>> > and the alternator is still generating accessories 12 volt and 120 volt
>> > units.
>> >
>> > Now when I press the accelerator. the micro switch circuit disconnects 
>> > the
>> > accessory drive from the main motor and then switches on two contactors
>> > that provide power to several electric motors which then drive the
>> > accessories.
>> >
>> > This did not happen all at once. I first added a standard 2 wire
>> > alternator to keep a 135 AH deep cycle 12 volt battery charge. In the 
>> > 2
>> > wire alternator, there is a small control wire call the R-wire that 
>> > plugs
>> > into the alternator. This is control by the ignition switch which 
>> > turns
>> > on the Regulator. When the ignition switch is in the start position, 
>> > this
>> > then turns off the R-wire or regulator while you are turning over a
>> > starter.
>> >
>> > There starter will normally draw over the rated ampere of the 
>> > alternator,
>> > so this is why the regulator is shut down at this time.
>> >
>> > In a EV, using the 2 wire alternator, you can put a on dash switch in
>> > series with the R-wire so you can turn off the regulator which in turn,
>> > prevents the alternator from generating any current. Normally this 
>> > R-wire
>> > circuit goes through a dash indicator which provides about 7 to 10 ohms 
>> > of
>> > resistance.
>> >
>> > If you do not use a alternator indicator lamp, you can install a 
>> > resistor
>> > with that value. This resistance sets the regulator to the right 
>> > starting
>> > voltage which is about 13.5 volts on a charge battery.
>> >
>> > On my large industrial inverter-alternator, it uses a selector switch 
>> > that
>> > I can select the minimum and maximum charging voltage.
>> >
>> > Roland
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > For subscription options, see
>> > http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>> >
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> For subscription options, see
>> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev 

_______________________________________________
For subscription options, see
http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Josh Creel <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> > my question is why don't you use instead of a inverter, convert that 145 amp
> > 15VDC from the alternator into drive pack voltage and tap it back into your
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Josh Creel" <[email protected]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, December 28, 2007 7:06 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] The solution to clutchless shifting


> what kind of EV do you have? I'd like to know more about your set up, do
> you have any picks?

You can see this EV at: http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/470.html

These are the old pictures EV back in 2002. The gray cover back on the fire 
wall now contains a Zilla 1K and main contactor. The enclosure is fan cool 
and the Zilla is water cool.

A electric clutch is now install on the motor pilot shaft that drives the 
accessory mounting which is about the same type that is mounted on the front 
of a GMC diesel engine. The accessory mounting plate is double up at the 
bottom and is held in place on four triple donut engine mounts that is bolt 
down on its own cross member.

The plate that normally covers the a radiator tank, now covers a foam cover 
copper tank that holds about 2 gallons of hot water heating fluid for the 
existing heater core in the fire wall. The hot water heater is a 1000 120 
vac 8 amp 18 inch long stainless steel heater tube that is design for diesel 
semi trucks tractors. A standard small 120 vac 60 hz 0.5 amp brass 
cartridge circulator pump that is rated for about 2 gpm at 6 feet lift.

This pumps about 50 to 180 F water through the heater core. The outside air 
is block which is incoming to this heater core, so I find I need only 50 
degree water temperature for defrosting.

All those chassis boxes are extruded aluminum type, that has a chassis plate 
in it and houses all the solid state contactors, terminal blocks with fuse 
holders and terminal points for incoming circuits for the units in that 
area.

The accelerator control you see there is a CableForm unit. A Curtis PB-6 
unit is use, that also has a linear activator on it, so I can control a idle 
point, normally use for maintenance. It also has a GMC variable vacuum 
modulator that is connected to the same control arm as the PB-6 that 
controls the vacuum to the TH-400 semi-auto-manual transmission which in 
turns control the pump pressure.

The existing power steering unit is remove from the existing position which 
is under the large alternator. In its place is two 3 peak hp PM motors that 
are gang together and drives the accessory units when the main motor is 
under load.

The indicators on the dash plates can be indiviually remove or the whole 
dash plate can be hinge down in three areas. A terminal block DIM rail 
system is mounted behind the dash on stand offs from the fire wall. All 
unit, instruments, switches are not wire point to point. Each unit is wire 
to a label terminal block and than the circuits are complete by cross 
connecting the circuits together.

This is normally use in industrial wiring, and it makes it easy to make 
changes, replace devices of install new equipment without rewiring the main 
buss lines.

The switches on the console control all the circuits in the EV. There are 
back up switches and parallel circuit switches which can be use if a circuit 
goes out or a control fuse goes out.

All control fuses group together in separate hinge door compartment. Each 
fuse holder is also DIM strip mounted and had blown fuse indicators on them. 
All these fuses a either fusetrons or limitrons type that have a high force 
pull out.

The batteries you see are Trojans T-145 260 AH 6 volt which came with a low 
profile post stud connection. These are modified with a narrow post clamp 
type which now uses side force on the battery pad and downward force using a 
washer and nut on the stud which now can be torque to 180 in.lbs.

The battery boxes are 1/4 inch thick fiberglass which are coated with that 
sink and shower epoxy compound. What you see there is what its looks today. 
Is very clean. There is filter air exhaust system that is acid proof and 
the rear compartments are filter air pressure to cool the battery charger.

Remember, that you do not have to do everything all at once. I started on 
this 2nd EV in 1985 and still doing modification today.

Roland


>
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Roland Wiench" <[email protected]>
> To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
> Sent: Friday, December 28, 2007 8:00 PM
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] The solution to clutchless shifting
>
>
> >
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message ----- 
> > From: "Josh Creel" <[email protected]>
> > To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
> > Sent: Friday, December 28, 2007 3:52 PM
> > Subject: Re: [EVDL] The solution to clutchless shifting
> >
> >
> > what about using an alternator to charge your 12VDC system, as Wayne 
> > does
> > at ev-blue.com? will that slow down the motor any useful amount?
> >
> >
> > Hello Josh,
> >
> > Yes, A alternator that you can switch a lot a load on to it will slow a 
> > EV
> > just like compression braking of a engine. I mainly doing it for 
> > safety,
> > so I do not go over 90 mph down the steep icy snow pack roads we have 
> > here
> > in Montana.
> >
> > In the summer or when the roads are dry, I can remove most of the load 
> > by
> > switching off the 12 volt accessories, if I want the EV to start to 
> > roller
> > coast the hills which at times will go 3 to 5 miles with out any
> > additional power.
> >
> > I am running a 7000 lb EV, so I need a lot of load to hold back the EV 
> > at
> > the normal speed, so I install a very large Delco 7 wire 145 amp
> > inverter-alternator with external regulator controls that I can select
> > 13.5, 14, 14.5, and 15 volt output which is at full load.
> >
> > A inverter unit that is design for this unit, is by Dynamote Company is
> > rated for 6kw at 120 vac at 60hz and also provides the 12 volt accessory
> > power too.
> >
> > To load up this inverter up the load I need to slow down this EV, I have
> > three 120 VAC electric heaters, two AC pumps, three AC fans, three DC
> > motors for the A/C, power steering, vacuum pump, 8 contactors, over 30
> > indicators lamps, over 30 readout indications, over 50 lighted control
> > switches, and a sound system.
> >
> > One advantage I have with this setup, is that the main motor pilot shaft
> > is also connected to these accessories drive unit by use of a electric
> > clutch. Any time I let up on the accelerator which removes the 
> > controller
> > power from the motor, the electric clutch connects the main motor to the
> > accessory drive. During this time, the battery ampere is now at 0 amps
> > and the alternator is still generating accessories 12 volt and 120 volt
> > units.
> >
> > Now when I press the accelerator. the micro switch circuit disconnects 
> > the
> > accessory drive from the main motor and then switches on two contactors
> > that provide power to several electric motors which then drive the
> > accessories.
> >
> > This did not happen all at once. I first added a standard 2 wire
> > alternator to keep a 135 AH deep cycle 12 volt battery charge. In the 2
> > wire alternator, there is a small control wire call the R-wire that 
> > plugs
> > into the alternator. This is control by the ignition switch which turns
> > on the Regulator. When the ignition switch is in the start position, 
> > this
> > then turns off the R-wire or regulator while you are turning over a
> > starter.
> >
> > There starter will normally draw over the rated ampere of the 
> > alternator,
> > so this is why the regulator is shut down at this time.
> >
> > In a EV, using the 2 wire alternator, you can put a on dash switch in
> > series with the R-wire so you can turn off the regulator which in turn,
> > prevents the alternator from generating any current. Normally this 
> > R-wire
> > circuit goes through a dash indicator which provides about 7 to 10 ohms 
> > of
> > resistance.
> >
> > If you do not use a alternator indicator lamp, you can install a 
> > resistor
> > with that value. This resistance sets the regulator to the right 
> > starting
> > voltage which is about 13.5 volts on a charge battery.
> >
> > On my large industrial inverter-alternator, it uses a selector switch 
> > that
> > I can select the minimum and maximum charging voltage.
> >
> > Roland
> > _______________________________________________
> > For subscription options, see
> > http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
> >
>
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
> 

_______________________________________________
For subscription options, see
http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> On 28 Dec 2007 at 19:14, Roland Wiench wrote:
> 
> > You cannot charge the battery and use it at the same time.
> 
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

I have machines that I work on that have 200amp alternators on them, if it 
were rigged with an electric clutch, that would engage when you release the 
accelarator petal, then the load from the alternator would would be the same 
as generating better than 3 hp, but that much load on the sytem. should 
slow you down pretty good.

can you build an alternator to put out to put out 144VDC? or would that be 
a generator? don't know what the in-effecintcies would be. (sorry, can't 
spell)

perhaps you could use a small dc motor as a generator, just setup to put out 
the required voltage, have to figure out how much would be required for 
braking effect.

what do you think?
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Zeke Yewdall" <[email protected]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, December 28, 2007 9:59 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] The solution to clutchless shifting


>


> Josh Creel <[email protected]> wrote:
> >
> >> my question is why don't you use instead of a inverter, convert that 145
> >> amp
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

yeah, can't do everything at once, just really excited about getting the 
project started back up. at any rate, I'm really looking foward to getting 
the truck on the road. I've had a lot of ideas, but I'm not as familiar 
with electronics as I'd like to be.

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Roland Wiench" <[email protected]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, December 28, 2007 10:08 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] The solution to clutchless shifting


>
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Josh Creel" <[email protected]>
> To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
> Sent: Friday, December 28, 2007 7:06 PM
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] The solution to clutchless shifting
>
>
>> what kind of EV do you have? I'd like to know more about your set up, 
>> do
>> you have any picks?
>
> You can see this EV at: http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/470.html
>
> These are the old pictures EV back in 2002. The gray cover back on the 
> fire wall now contains a Zilla 1K and main contactor. The enclosure is 
> fan cool and the Zilla is water cool.
>
> A electric clutch is now install on the motor pilot shaft that drives the 
> accessory mounting which is about the same type that is mounted on the 
> front of a GMC diesel engine. The accessory mounting plate is double up 
> at the bottom and is held in place on four triple donut engine mounts that 
> is bolt down on its own cross member.
>
> The plate that normally covers the a radiator tank, now covers a foam 
> cover copper tank that holds about 2 gallons of hot water heating fluid 
> for the existing heater core in the fire wall. The hot water heater is a 
> 1000 120 vac 8 amp 18 inch long stainless steel heater tube that is design 
> for diesel semi trucks tractors. A standard small 120 vac 60 hz 0.5 amp 
> brass cartridge circulator pump that is rated for about 2 gpm at 6 feet 
> lift.
>
> This pumps about 50 to 180 F water through the heater core. The outside 
> air is block which is incoming to this heater core, so I find I need only 
> 50 degree water temperature for defrosting.
>
> All those chassis boxes are extruded aluminum type, that has a chassis 
> plate in it and houses all the solid state contactors, terminal blocks 
> with fuse holders and terminal points for incoming circuits for the units 
> in that area.
>
> The accelerator control you see there is a CableForm unit. A Curtis PB-6 
> unit is use, that also has a linear activator on it, so I can control a 
> idle point, normally use for maintenance. It also has a GMC variable 
> vacuum modulator that is connected to the same control arm as the PB-6 
> that controls the vacuum to the TH-400 semi-auto-manual transmission which 
> in turns control the pump pressure.
>
> The existing power steering unit is remove from the existing position 
> which is under the large alternator. In its place is two 3 peak hp PM 
> motors that are gang together and drives the accessory units when the main 
> motor is under load.
>
> The indicators on the dash plates can be indiviually remove or the whole 
> dash plate can be hinge down in three areas. A terminal block DIM rail 
> system is mounted behind the dash on stand offs from the fire wall. All 
> unit, instruments, switches are not wire point to point. Each unit is 
> wire to a label terminal block and than the circuits are complete by cross 
> connecting the circuits together.
>
> This is normally use in industrial wiring, and it makes it easy to make 
> changes, replace devices of install new equipment without rewiring the 
> main buss lines.
>
> The switches on the console control all the circuits in the EV. There are 
> back up switches and parallel circuit switches which can be use if a 
> circuit goes out or a control fuse goes out.
>
> All control fuses group together in separate hinge door compartment. Each 
> fuse holder is also DIM strip mounted and had blown fuse indicators on 
> them. All these fuses a either fusetrons or limitrons type that have a 
> high force pull out.
>
> The batteries you see are Trojans T-145 260 AH 6 volt which came with a 
> low profile post stud connection. These are modified with a narrow post 
> clamp type which now uses side force on the battery pad and downward force 
> using a washer and nut on the stud which now can be torque to 180 in.lbs.
>
> The battery boxes are 1/4 inch thick fiberglass which are coated with that 
> sink and shower epoxy compound. What you see there is what its looks 
> today. Is very clean. There is filter air exhaust system that is acid 
> proof and the rear compartments are filter air pressure to cool the 
> battery charger.
>
> Remember, that you do not have to do everything all at once. I started on 
> this 2nd EV in 1985 and still doing modification today.
>
> Roland
>
>
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>> From: "Roland Wiench" <[email protected]>
>> To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
>> Sent: Friday, December 28, 2007 8:00 PM
>> Subject: Re: [EVDL] The solution to clutchless shifting
>>
>>
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > ----- Original Message ----- 
>> > From: "Josh Creel" <[email protected]>
>> > To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
>> > Sent: Friday, December 28, 2007 3:52 PM
>> > Subject: Re: [EVDL] The solution to clutchless shifting
>> >
>> >
>> > what about using an alternator to charge your 12VDC system, as Wayne 
>> > does
>> > at ev-blue.com? will that slow down the motor any useful amount?
>> >
>> >
>> > Hello Josh,
>> >
>> > Yes, A alternator that you can switch a lot a load on to it will slow a 
>> > EV
>> > just like compression braking of a engine. I mainly doing it for 
>> > safety,
>> > so I do not go over 90 mph down the steep icy snow pack roads we have 
>> > here
>> > in Montana.
>> >
>> > In the summer or when the roads are dry, I can remove most of the load 
>> > by
>> > switching off the 12 volt accessories, if I want the EV to start to 
>> > roller
>> > coast the hills which at times will go 3 to 5 miles with out any
>> > additional power.
>> >
>> > I am running a 7000 lb EV, so I need a lot of load to hold back the EV 
>> > at
>> > the normal speed, so I install a very large Delco 7 wire 145 amp
>> > inverter-alternator with external regulator controls that I can select
>> > 13.5, 14, 14.5, and 15 volt output which is at full load.
>> >
>> > A inverter unit that is design for this unit, is by Dynamote Company is
>> > rated for 6kw at 120 vac at 60hz and also provides the 12 volt 
>> > accessory
>> > power too.
>> >
>> > To load up this inverter up the load I need to slow down this EV, I 
>> > have
>> > three 120 VAC electric heaters, two AC pumps, three AC fans, three DC
>> > motors for the A/C, power steering, vacuum pump, 8 contactors, over 30
>> > indicators lamps, over 30 readout indications, over 50 lighted control
>> > switches, and a sound system.
>> >
>> > One advantage I have with this setup, is that the main motor pilot 
>> > shaft
>> > is also connected to these accessories drive unit by use of a electric
>> > clutch. Any time I let up on the accelerator which removes the 
>> > controller
>> > power from the motor, the electric clutch connects the main motor to 
>> > the
>> > accessory drive. During this time, the battery ampere is now at 0 amps
>> > and the alternator is still generating accessories 12 volt and 120 volt
>> > units.
>> >
>> > Now when I press the accelerator. the micro switch circuit disconnects 
>> > the
>> > accessory drive from the main motor and then switches on two contactors
>> > that provide power to several electric motors which then drive the
>> > accessories.
>> >
>> > This did not happen all at once. I first added a standard 2 wire
>> > alternator to keep a 135 AH deep cycle 12 volt battery charge. In the 
>> > 2
>> > wire alternator, there is a small control wire call the R-wire that 
>> > plugs
>> > into the alternator. This is control by the ignition switch which 
>> > turns
>> > on the Regulator. When the ignition switch is in the start position, 
>> > this
>> > then turns off the R-wire or regulator while you are turning over a
>> > starter.
>> >
>> > There starter will normally draw over the rated ampere of the 
>> > alternator,
>> > so this is why the regulator is shut down at this time.
>> >
>> > In a EV, using the 2 wire alternator, you can put a on dash switch in
>> > series with the R-wire so you can turn off the regulator which in turn,
>> > prevents the alternator from generating any current. Normally this 
>> > R-wire
>> > circuit goes through a dash indicator which provides about 7 to 10 ohms 
>> > of
>> > resistance.
>> >
>> > If you do not use a alternator indicator lamp, you can install a 
>> > resistor
>> > with that value. This resistance sets the regulator to the right 
>> > starting
>> > voltage which is about 13.5 volts on a charge battery.
>> >
>> > On my large industrial inverter-alternator, it uses a selector switch 
>> > that
>> > I can select the minimum and maximum charging voltage.
>> >
>> > Roland
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > For subscription options, see
>> > http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>> >
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> For subscription options, see
>> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev 

_______________________________________________
For subscription options, see
http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Would I be correct in saying for example, that when you put a battery 
charger on a car (or jumper cables), to start a ICE engine with a low 
battery, this would be the same type of thing? the jumper cables are 
charging the battery, the starter motor is using the power, if the amps are 
high enough (theoreticlly) the jumper cables (charger) would be running the 
motor and charging battery at same time...... hmhm

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "EVDL Administrator" <[email protected]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, December 28, 2007 10:04 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] The solution to clutchless shifting




> > On 28 Dec 2007 at 19:14, Roland Wiench wrote:
> >
> >> You cannot charge the battery and use it at the same time.
> >
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Josh Creel" <[email protected]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, December 28, 2007 7:32 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] The solution to clutchless shifting


> ok, lets put 2 battery packs in, run on one, charge the other, with the
> 200amp alternator. install switching system in cab to swap packs when one
> is low.

Where are you going to get the power to run that generator. If you need 200 
amps to run a EV from a battery pack, and if you connect a 200 amp generator 
to the EV motor, it's like try to run the load of two EV's with one motor.

So now you have 200 amps for running the EV and 200 amps for running the 
generator, that makes a load of 400 or more amps on the motor which you 
cannot run that long without burning out the motor.

Lets say we can run a motor at 400 amps and the battery terminals can take 
this without melting them, and

If a 200 ah battery pack can run 1 hour at that 200 amps, then when you add 
another 200 amp load, you will now have about 30 minutes or less of run time 
which will be closer to 15 minutes because of the increase weight of another 
battery pack and a 200 amp generator.

You do not gain nothing, only losing range, it's a descending motion. It 
takes longer to charge a battery pack then to discharge it.

Test it out, drive for one mile at about 60 battery amps for a certain 
amount of time. Then charge the batteries at 30 charger amps for the same 
amount of time. You will find you need more charging time to bring the 
batteries back up to the same level you started at.

Roland


>
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Roland Wiench" <[email protected]>
> To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
> Sent: Friday, December 28, 2007 9:14 PM
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] The solution to clutchless shifting
>
>
> > Hello Josh,
> >
> > You cannot do that. You must disconnect the battery from the load and
> > than charge the battery. The charge voltage is going through the battery
> > from negative to positive. Then the charger or generator circuit is
> > remove from the battery and the battery is connected to the load which
> > discharges the battery with the current going inside the battery from
> > positive to negative.
> >
> > You cannot charge the battery and use it at the same time. Remember 
> > that
> > you car alternator is off the line while the battery is turning over the
> > starter. You have a lot of equipment to do this with a DC motor.
> >
> > My old CableForm controller had a REGEN circuit in it where there was a
> > bank of capacitors. a extra 900 amp triac, a 600 amp shunt contactor, a
> > two pole 600 amp reversing type of contactor. This type of circuit 
> > raises
> > the voltage higher than the battery pack voltage during the off cycle to
> > the motor. When the motor fields collapses, the motor has to be rewired 
> > as
> > a generator and the current is now fed back though the free wheeling 
> > diode
> > to the batteries.
> >
> > Today this is not cost effected for a DC motor for the amount of energy
> > you can generate to the batteries. Tremendous amount of maintenance on
> > this type of system. Best to use a AC system.
> >
> > Roland
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message ----- 
> > From: "Josh Creel" <[email protected]>
> > To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
> > Sent: Friday, December 28, 2007 6:26 PM
> > Subject: Re: [EVDL] The solution to clutchless shifting
> >
> >
> >> how could u convert the extra voltage to pack voltage and return it to
> >> your
> >> drive pack and use, say a 200Amp alternator rig it so that when you let
> >> up
> >> on the accelarater it starts dumping that energy to your drive pack?
> >>
> >>
> >> ----- Original Message ----- 
> >> From: "Roland Wiench" <[email protected]>
> >> To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
> >> Sent: Friday, December 28, 2007 8:00 PM
> >> Subject: Re: [EVDL] The solution to clutchless shifting
> >>
> >>
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > ----- Original Message ----- 
> >> > From: "Josh Creel" <[email protected]>
> >> > To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
> >> > Sent: Friday, December 28, 2007 3:52 PM
> >> > Subject: Re: [EVDL] The solution to clutchless shifting
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > what about using an alternator to charge your 12VDC system, as Wayne
> >> > does
> >> > at ev-blue.com? will that slow down the motor any useful amount?
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > Hello Josh,
> >> >
> >> > Yes, A alternator that you can switch a lot a load on to it will slow 
> >> > a
> >> > EV
> >> > just like compression braking of a engine. I mainly doing it for
> >> > safety,
> >> > so I do not go over 90 mph down the steep icy snow pack roads we have
> >> > here
> >> > in Montana.
> >> >
> >> > In the summer or when the roads are dry, I can remove most of the 
> >> > load
> >> > by
> >> > switching off the 12 volt accessories, if I want the EV to start to
> >> > roller
> >> > coast the hills which at times will go 3 to 5 miles with out any
> >> > additional power.
> >> >
> >> > I am running a 7000 lb EV, so I need a lot of load to hold back the 
> >> > EV
> >> > at
> >> > the normal speed, so I install a very large Delco 7 wire 145 amp
> >> > inverter-alternator with external regulator controls that I can 
> >> > select
> >> > 13.5, 14, 14.5, and 15 volt output which is at full load.
> >> >
> >> > A inverter unit that is design for this unit, is by Dynamote Company 
> >> > is
> >> > rated for 6kw at 120 vac at 60hz and also provides the 12 volt
> >> > accessory
> >> > power too.
> >> >
> >> > To load up this inverter up the load I need to slow down this EV, I
> >> > have
> >> > three 120 VAC electric heaters, two AC pumps, three AC fans, three DC
> >> > motors for the A/C, power steering, vacuum pump, 8 contactors, over 
> >> > 30
> >> > indicators lamps, over 30 readout indications, over 50 lighted 
> >> > control
> >> > switches, and a sound system.
> >> >
> >> > One advantage I have with this setup, is that the main motor pilot
> >> > shaft
> >> > is also connected to these accessories drive unit by use of a 
> >> > electric
> >> > clutch. Any time I let up on the accelerator which removes the
> >> > controller
> >> > power from the motor, the electric clutch connects the main motor to
> >> > the
> >> > accessory drive. During this time, the battery ampere is now at 0 
> >> > amps
> >> > and the alternator is still generating accessories 12 volt and 120 
> >> > volt
> >> > units.
> >> >
> >> > Now when I press the accelerator. the micro switch circuit 
> >> > disconnects
> >> > the
> >> > accessory drive from the main motor and then switches on two 
> >> > contactors
> >> > that provide power to several electric motors which then drive the
> >> > accessories.
> >> >
> >> > This did not happen all at once. I first added a standard 2 wire
> >> > alternator to keep a 135 AH deep cycle 12 volt battery charge. In 
> >> > the
> >> > 2
> >> > wire alternator, there is a small control wire call the R-wire that
> >> > plugs
> >> > into the alternator. This is control by the ignition switch which
> >> > turns
> >> > on the Regulator. When the ignition switch is in the start position,
> >> > this
> >> > then turns off the R-wire or regulator while you are turning over a
> >> > starter.
> >> >
> >> > There starter will normally draw over the rated ampere of the
> >> > alternator,
> >> > so this is why the regulator is shut down at this time.
> >> >
> >> > In a EV, using the 2 wire alternator, you can put a on dash switch in
> >> > series with the R-wire so you can turn off the regulator which in 
> >> > turn,
> >> > prevents the alternator from generating any current. Normally this
> >> > R-wire
> >> > circuit goes through a dash indicator which provides about 7 to 10 
> >> > ohms
> >> > of
> >> > resistance.
> >> >
> >> > If you do not use a alternator indicator lamp, you can install a
> >> > resistor
> >> > with that value. This resistance sets the regulator to the right
> >> > starting
> >> > voltage which is about 13.5 volts on a charge battery.
> >> >
> >> > On my large industrial inverter-alternator, it uses a selector switch
> >> > that
> >> > I can select the minimum and maximum charging voltage.
> >> >
> >> > Roland
> >> > _______________________________________________
> >> > For subscription options, see
> >> > http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
> >> >
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> For subscription options, see
> >> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
> >>
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > For subscription options, see
> > http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
> 

_______________________________________________
For subscription options, see
http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

The inverter is use to run all my AC 60 hz units that may be as high as 100 
amps on the 15 volt DC of the alternator.

You tell me how I can charge a 180 volt pack to a charge voltage of 225 
volts at 50 amps from a 15 vdc at 145 amp (about 110 amps max)

225 x 50 = 11.250 kw for commercial power charging

15 x 110 = 1.650 kw max from the alternator

15 x 50A = 0.750 kw for the accessory load

0.900 kw remaining




----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Josh Creel" <[email protected]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, December 28, 2007 7:51 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] The solution to clutchless shifting


> To load up this inverter up the load I need to slow down this EV, I have
> > > three 120 VAC electric heaters, two AC pumps, three AC fans, three DC
> > > motors for the A/C, power steering, vacuum pump, 8 contactors, over 30
> > > indicators lamps, over 30 readout indications, over 50 lighted control
> > > switches, and a sound system.
> > >
> > > One advantage I have with this setup, is that the main motor pilot 
> > > shaft
> > > is also connected to these accessories drive unit by use of a electric
> > > clutch. Any time I let up on the accelerator which removes the
> > > controller
> > > power from the motor, the electric clutch connects the main motor to 
> > > the
> > > accessory drive. During this time, the battery ampere is now at 0 
> > > amps
> > > and the alternator is still generating accessories 12 volt and 120 
> > > volt
> > > units.
>
> my question is why don't you use instead of a inverter, convert that 145 
> amp
> 15VDC from the alternator into drive pack voltage and tap it back into 
> your
> battery drive pack? like Zeke said : you can use
> the DC terminals of the battery as a buss to sum various loads and
> sources, and whatever the net of these loads and sources will either
> charge or discharge the battery, depending on whether there's more
> input or output. There is no need to disconnect loads when charging,
> or chargers when loading, unless the loads cannot stand the voltage of
> the batteries under charge.
>
> ?????
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Roland Wiench" <[email protected]>
> To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
> Sent: Friday, December 28, 2007 9:14 PM
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] The solution to clutchless shifting
>
>
> > Hello Josh,
> >
> > You cannot do that. You must disconnect the battery from the load and
> > than charge the battery. The charge voltage is going through the battery
> > from negative to positive. Then the charger or generator circuit is
> > remove from the battery and the battery is connected to the load which
> > discharges the battery with the current going inside the battery from
> > positive to negative.
> >
> > You cannot charge the battery and use it at the same time. Remember 
> > that
> > you car alternator is off the line while the battery is turning over the
> > starter. You have a lot of equipment to do this with a DC motor.
> >
> > My old CableForm controller had a REGEN circuit in it where there was a
> > bank of capacitors. a extra 900 amp triac, a 600 amp shunt contactor, a
> > two pole 600 amp reversing type of contactor. This type of circuit 
> > raises
> > the voltage higher than the battery pack voltage during the off cycle to
> > the motor. When the motor fields collapses, the motor has to be rewired 
> > as
> > a generator and the current is now fed back though the free wheeling 
> > diode
> > to the batteries.
> >
> > Today this is not cost effected for a DC motor for the amount of energy
> > you can generate to the batteries. Tremendous amount of maintenance on
> > this type of system. Best to use a AC system.
> >
> > Roland
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message ----- 
> > From: "Josh Creel" <[email protected]>
> > To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
> > Sent: Friday, December 28, 2007 6:26 PM
> > Subject: Re: [EVDL] The solution to clutchless shifting
> >
> >
> >> how could u convert the extra voltage to pack voltage and return it to
> >> your
> >> drive pack and use, say a 200Amp alternator rig it so that when you let
> >> up
> >> on the accelarater it starts dumping that energy to your drive pack?
> >>
> >>
> >> ----- Original Message ----- 
> >> From: "Roland Wiench" <[email protected]>
> >> To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
> >> Sent: Friday, December 28, 2007 8:00 PM
> >> Subject: Re: [EVDL] The solution to clutchless shifting
> >>
> >>
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > ----- Original Message ----- 
> >> > From: "Josh Creel" <[email protected]>
> >> > To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
> >> > Sent: Friday, December 28, 2007 3:52 PM
> >> > Subject: Re: [EVDL] The solution to clutchless shifting
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > what about using an alternator to charge your 12VDC system, as Wayne
> >> > does
> >> > at ev-blue.com? will that slow down the motor any useful amount?
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > Hello Josh,
> >> >
> >> > Yes, A alternator that you can switch a lot a load on to it will slow 
> >> > a
> >> > EV
> >> > just like compression braking of a engine. I mainly doing it for
> >> > safety,
> >> > so I do not go over 90 mph down the steep icy snow pack roads we have
> >> > here
> >> > in Montana.
> >> >
> >> > In the summer or when the roads are dry, I can remove most of the 
> >> > load
> >> > by
> >> > switching off the 12 volt accessories, if I want the EV to start to
> >> > roller
> >> > coast the hills which at times will go 3 to 5 miles with out any
> >> > additional power.
> >> >
> >> > I am running a 7000 lb EV, so I need a lot of load to hold back the 
> >> > EV
> >> > at
> >> > the normal speed, so I install a very large Delco 7 wire 145 amp
> >> > inverter-alternator with external regulator controls that I can 
> >> > select
> >> > 13.5, 14, 14.5, and 15 volt output which is at full load.
> >> >
> >> > A inverter unit that is design for this unit, is by Dynamote Company 
> >> > is
> >> > rated for 6kw at 120 vac at 60hz and also provides the 12 volt
> >> > accessory
> >> > power too.
> >> >
> >> > To load up this inverter up the load I need to slow down this EV, I
> >> > have
> >> > three 120 VAC electric heaters, two AC pumps, three AC fans, three DC
> >> > motors for the A/C, power steering, vacuum pump, 8 contactors, over 
> >> > 30
> >> > indicators lamps, over 30 readout indications, over 50 lighted 
> >> > control
> >> > switches, and a sound system.
> >> >
> >> > One advantage I have with this setup, is that the main motor pilot
> >> > shaft
> >> > is also connected to these accessories drive unit by use of a 
> >> > electric
> >> > clutch. Any time I let up on the accelerator which removes the
> >> > controller
> >> > power from the motor, the electric clutch connects the main motor to
> >> > the
> >> > accessory drive. During this time, the battery ampere is now at 0 
> >> > amps
> >> > and the alternator is still generating accessories 12 volt and 120 
> >> > volt
> >> > units.
> >> >
> >> > Now when I press the accelerator. the micro switch circuit 
> >> > disconnects
> >> > the
> >> > accessory drive from the main motor and then switches on two 
> >> > contactors
> >> > that provide power to several electric motors which then drive the
> >> > accessories.
> >> >
> >> > This did not happen all at once. I first added a standard 2 wire
> >> > alternator to keep a 135 AH deep cycle 12 volt battery charge. In 
> >> > the
> >> > 2
> >> > wire alternator, there is a small control wire call the R-wire that
> >> > plugs
> >> > into the alternator. This is control by the ignition switch which
> >> > turns
> >> > on the Regulator. When the ignition switch is in the start position,
> >> > this
> >> > then turns off the R-wire or regulator while you are turning over a
> >> > starter.
> >> >
> >> > There starter will normally draw over the rated ampere of the
> >> > alternator,
> >> > so this is why the regulator is shut down at this time.
> >> >
> >> > In a EV, using the 2 wire alternator, you can put a on dash switch in
> >> > series with the R-wire so you can turn off the regulator which in 
> >> > turn,
> >> > prevents the alternator from generating any current. Normally this
> >> > R-wire
> >> > circuit goes through a dash indicator which provides about 7 to 10 
> >> > ohms
> >> > of
> >> > resistance.
> >> >
> >> > If you do not use a alternator indicator lamp, you can install a
> >> > resistor
> >> > with that value. This resistance sets the regulator to the right
> >> > starting
> >> > voltage which is about 13.5 volts on a charge battery.
> >> >
> >> > On my large industrial inverter-alternator, it uses a selector switch
> >> > that
> >> > I can select the minimum and maximum charging voltage.
> >> >
> >> > Roland
> >> > _______________________________________________
> >> > For subscription options, see
> >> > http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
> >> >
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> For subscription options, see
> >> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
> >>
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > For subscription options, see
> > http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>
> _______________________________________________
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> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
> 

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Your missing me altogether, i wasn't talking about turning a generator 
with the motor, just through the motor with the wheels of the ev using the 
generator or alternator going down hill, regenerative braking. when you 
take you foot off the throttle the the generator would engage and return 
power to the drive pack at the same time slowing the vehicle. the original 
though was that we were talking about ways to slow down the motor for 
clutchless shifting, i was thinking that a load on the motor from a 
generator (alternator) would slow the motor enough to shift to the tranny to 
the next higher gear. also this same system would act as re-gen braking 
(the main reason for the modification) the only EV i have ever driven was a 
golf cart, and I'm sure you guys have a lot of incite that would help me 
greatly as I work on my S-10 conversion. First I got to get It going, then 
I can work on more modifications ;-)
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Roland Wiench" <[email protected]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, December 28, 2007 10:47 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] The solution to clutchless shifting


>
>
>
> 

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Hello Josh,

That's right, in the charger engine start mode, the charger is providing the 
starting power to the starter and if the charger voltage rises higher than 
the battery, it will also charge the battery.

After a battery starts a engine, then the alternator comes on and starts 
charging the battery and provides all the power to the accessories while the 
alternator voltage is higher than the battery.

In a ICE the alternator rpm is kept high, which should be about 1200 rpm. 
This is the rpm that the alternator may need to excite it to bring up the 
voltage. A 2.5 inch pulley is use on the alternator and a 6 to 8 inch 
pulley may be on the engine.

In a EV, I use a 2.25 inch pulley on the alternator and use a 6 inch pulley 
on the motor drive. I need about 500 motor rpm for the alternator to come 
on, which is about 2 mph. Watching the 12 volt meter, I will note that the 
battery voltage on a 12 volt meter and the alternator will come up when I up 
to 2 mph speed backing out of my garage. I am running about a 20:1 gear 
ratio in 1st gear.

Roland


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Josh Creel" <[email protected]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, December 28, 2007 8:43 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] The solution to clutchless shifting


> Would I be correct in saying for example, that when you put a battery
> charger on a car (or jumper cables), to start a ICE engine with a low
> battery, this would be the same type of thing? the jumper cables are
> charging the battery, the starter motor is using the power, if the amps 
> are
> high enough (theoreticlly) the jumper cables (charger) would be running 
> the
> motor and charging battery at same time...... hmhm
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "EVDL Administrator" <[email protected]>
> To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
> Sent: Friday, December 28, 2007 10:04 PM
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] The solution to clutchless shifting
>
>


> > > On 28 Dec 2007 at 19:14, Roland Wiench wrote:
> > >
> > >> You cannot charge the battery and use it at the same time.
> > >
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

that makes sense, Iguess what I'm now trying to get to is re-gen braking 
but not through the controller or even the motor, separate generator.....

love your EV by the way, looks great!

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Roland Wiench" <[email protected]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, December 28, 2007 11:31 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] The solution to clutchless shifting


> Hello Josh,
>
> That's right, in the charger engine start mode, the charger is providing 
> the starting power to the starter and if the charger voltage rises higher 
> than the battery, it will also charge the battery.
>
> After a battery starts a engine, then the alternator comes on and starts 
> charging the battery and provides all the power to the accessories while 
> the alternator voltage is higher than the battery.
>
> In a ICE the alternator rpm is kept high, which should be about 1200 rpm. 
> This is the rpm that the alternator may need to excite it to bring up the 
> voltage. A 2.5 inch pulley is use on the alternator and a 6 to 8 inch 
> pulley may be on the engine.
>
> In a EV, I use a 2.25 inch pulley on the alternator and use a 6 inch 
> pulley on the motor drive. I need about 500 motor rpm for the alternator 
> to come on, which is about 2 mph. Watching the 12 volt meter, I will note 
> that the battery voltage on a 12 volt meter and the alternator will come 
> up when I up to 2 mph speed backing out of my garage. I am running about 
> a 20:1 gear ratio in 1st gear.
>
> Roland
>
>

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

What I have works very good for me. Most of the generators we use now are 
alternators that put out 1 to 3 phase AC. For DC, a full wave bridge 
rectifier is use to change it to DC. A standard car alternator with the 
regulator R-wire circuit B+ and B- remove from the regulator, it will 
generate 110 vdc at about 6000 rpm.

This 110 vdc is now inverted to 120 vac 60 hz at 6kw so I can run at least 3 
to 4 kw loads. I now can converted the 120 vac 60 hz to 225 volts to about 
25 amps max. Must stay under 6kw or 225 x 25 = 5.625 kw.

So you need a electronic boost type unit to do this. A PFC-50 battery 
charger that is onboard already does this.

Roland



----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Josh Creel" <[email protected]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, December 28, 2007 8:12 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] The solution to clutchless shifting


> I have machines that I work on that have 200amp alternators on them, if 
> it
> were rigged with an electric clutch, that would engage when you release 
> the
> accelarator petal, then the load from the alternator would would be the 
> same
> as generating better than 3 hp, but that much load on the sytem. should
> slow you down pretty good.
>
> can you build an alternator to put out to put out 144VDC? or would that 
> be
> a generator? don't know what the in-effecintcies would be. (sorry, 
> can't
> spell)
>
> perhaps you could use a small dc motor as a generator, just setup to put 
> out
> the required voltage, have to figure out how much would be required for
> braking effect.
>
> what do you think?
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Zeke Yewdall" <[email protected]>
> To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
> Sent: Friday, December 28, 2007 9:59 PM
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] The solution to clutchless shifting
>
>
> >


> Josh Creel <[email protected]> wrote:
> > >
> > >> my question is why don't you use instead of a inverter, convert that
> > >> 145
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Yosh, what you're proposing is absolutely workable and I've seen EVs
with such setups. To answer your original question it would also be
possible to use the alternator to slow down the motor for shifting.
The best alternator to use is the wound rotor type, you can easily
modulate it from no load to full load by regulating the current
flowing through the rotor. This way you don't even need to use an A/C
clutch.






> Josh Creel <[email protected]> wrote:
> > Your missing me altogether, i wasn't talking about turning a generator
> > with the motor, just through the motor with the wheels of the ev using the
> > generator or alternator going down hill, regenerative braking. when you
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

where can i find a wiring schematic for something like this?

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Peter Gabrielsson" <[email protected]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, December 28, 2007 11:56 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] The solution to clutchless shifting


> Yosh, what you're proposing is absolutely workable and I've seen EVs
> with such setups. To answer your original question it would also be
> possible to use the alternator to slow down the motor for shifting.
> The best alternator to use is the wound rotor type, you can easily
> modulate it from no load to full load by regulating the current
> flowing through the rotor. This way you don't even need to use an A/C
> clutch.
>
>
>
>
>


> Josh Creel <[email protected]> wrote:
> >> Your missing me altogether, i wasn't talking about turning a
> >> generator
> >> with the motor, just through the motor with the wheels of the ev using
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

would this kind of alternator work?

http://www.db-starter-alternator.com/Items/7861-7%20200amp%20black%20powder%20coat?

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Peter Gabrielsson" <[email protected]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, December 28, 2007 11:56 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] The solution to clutchless shifting


> Yosh, what you're proposing is absolutely workable and I've seen EVs
> with such setups. To answer your original question it would also be
> possible to use the alternator to slow down the motor for shifting.
> The best alternator to use is the wound rotor type, you can easily
> modulate it from no load to full load by regulating the current
> flowing through the rotor. This way you don't even need to use an A/C
> clutch.
>
>
>
>
>


> Josh Creel <[email protected]> wrote:
> >> Your missing me altogether, i wasn't talking about turning a
> >> generator
> >> with the motor, just through the motor with the wheels of the ev using
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Not to put to negative a point on it but maybe a multi-speed mechanical
transmission is an ICE leftover that helps when converting with forklift
parts.

John Wayland and others have shown us how to have an electric
transmission with the series parallel and the zilla.

Or use a BIG motor! 13"

Or use high rpm and AC induction.

As soon as I can afford a second 9" the zcar tranny is out!

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> [email protected] wrote:
> > You really wouldn't want to do this with analog
> 
> I would.  That's because I can build it, test it, and get it working
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Josh Creel wrote:
> > OK, let's put 2 battery packs in. Run on one, charge the other with
> > the 200amp alternator. Install switching system in cab to swap packs
> > when one is low.
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Josh Creel wrote:
> > 200amp alternator... if it were rigged with an electric clutch
> > that would engage when you release the accelerator petal, then the
> > load from the alternator would would be the same as generating
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

just a note, I only give the example of two separate battery packs because 
it was stated that you could not return energy to the one pack that you 
would be using. however, that issue was later cleared up. so yes i agree, 
the 2 battery back idea is out the window ;-)


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Lee Hart" <[email protected]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Saturday, December 29, 2007 1:02 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] The solution to clutchless shifting




> > Josh Creel wrote:
> >> OK, let's put 2 battery packs in. Run on one, charge the other with
> >> the 200amp alternator. Install switching system in cab to swap packs
> >> when one is low.
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

I think if you are using an alternator with an internal regulator, a
voltage divider or resistor can be used to prevent it from regening to
much if the pack voltage climb. This would be because the field would
still remain a 12 Volt system.?

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

[No message]


----------

