# manzanita shocker!



## Ziggythewiz (May 16, 2010)

Do you usually use your wrench as a volt meter? That could be pretty cool as it could function as an amp meter as well with the shade of red glow used to indicate amps... 

I'd guess your charger's grounded to the chasis and one of the curtis inputs is connected to the charger bypassing the disconnect? Do you have a precharge around the contactor that's always on?


----------



## MN Driver (Sep 29, 2009)

The Manzanita isn't isolated, so if you are charging and the charger and your car is connected to ground, you've just passed AC voltage from the terminal to the chassis of your car using your wrench. Check for AC voltage, should show you a nominal outlet voltage.


----------



## F16bmathis (Jun 6, 2008)

Actually, being as lazy as I am, I usually do use wrenches to test voltage. Also use adjustable as hammer, and as for the current meter glowing, I use my hydrogen generator (youtube look up f16bmathis) when I connect my 220 welder to the plates! Doesn't glow under water though...

The precharge is across the main contactor, not the main disconnect. Thats why I'm confused on where the V is from. Could be an AC voltage, now that I'm at work and put two seconds of thought towards it, or...

Thing was, every connection (HV) at the Curtis had the V. The more I think about it, the more serious it seems. Maybe its time to dust off the Prius and see if it still runs while I put a day or two into looking into this.

Also, the motor seemed very warm considering I just drove 15 miles at 65-70 but in 30 degree weather... Charged for an hour before finding sparks. Makes me wonder if I have voltage running through the motor while charging? Yup, I gotta look into this.

1. Check for AC & DC at all Curtis connections (which is it, and where)
2. Ensure main disconnect really disconnects
3. Isolate Manzanita from trucks ground (remount with teflon screws?)
4. Battery pack is shorted to trucks ground, but only a humidity short. It goes away if you blow dry the battery pack, and the short moves when blow drying.


----------



## Russco (Dec 23, 2008)

F16bmathis said:


> So I'm charging my truck, main disconnect is off, and I'm going to start wrenching on the HV wiring going from the Curtis 1231C to the main disconnect. Just for fun, I decided to see if there is any voltage differential between what I'm working on and the trucks ground by using the wrench. A few big sparks later, I got a meter and found just over 100V across any Curtis connection to the trucks ground, but only with the charger on. Didn't check for AC, and the controller still works.
> 
> Whats up???!!


What's up? Are you trying to kill yourself? 

Normal for a non-isolated charger to have a high voltage AC on the battery pack when charging. Connecting a short via your handy wrench should draw hundreds of peak amps for a fraction of a second until the GFCI/circuit breaker trips. 

Be sure you life insurance is paid up. 

Russ Kaufmann

RUSSCO


----------



## F16bmathis (Jun 6, 2008)

MN Driver said:


> The Manzanita isn't isolated, so if you are charging and the charger and your car is connected to ground, you've just passed AC voltage from the terminal to the chassis of your car using your wrench. Check for AC voltage, should show you a nominal outlet voltage.


So if I were to isolate the charger from the truck by using non-conducting bolts, would that work, or cause a horrible explosion like Kelly controllers do when you isolate them in that manner? (Kelly tech thought that would work)


----------



## F16bmathis (Jun 6, 2008)

Russco said:


> What's up? Are you trying to kill yourself?
> 
> Normal for a non-isolated charger to have a high voltage AC on the battery pack when charging. Connecting a short via your handy wrench should draw hundreds of peak amps for a fraction of a second until the GFCI/circuit breaker trips.
> 
> ...


I was under the assumtion there would be no voltage present at the controller just because I was charging the batteries. I should not assume, therefore I use wrenches to test, maybe it would be better to just grab a meter and check it, but I would have never thought I'd have anything to worry about, so just before I grab the 4:00 wire, I decided to "test" it with a wrench, not really expecting anything to happen, but it was safer than just grabbing the darn wire and going for it.

No breakers tripped, charger kept charging. Of course I didn't keep the wrench shorted for long. Seems I have a reflex action of some sort.

So Now I know, there is voltage there. Is this O.K.? Or is it a problem I should fix.

Life insurance.... Yeah, for all the crazy hydrogen generating, electric car zapping, motorcycle driving I do, I should really think about making someone happy cause I'm dead. I think my guardian angel is getting tired of watching over me!


----------



## MN Driver (Sep 29, 2009)

I'm not familiar enough with Manzanitas to know but I don't see why it would require the car to be grounded, but I think I'd rather have the car grounded than to have AC voltage present at the chassis if it wasn't. I think the idea is generally to avoid touching any terminals of a vehicle that has a charger without isolation.


----------



## Russco (Dec 23, 2008)

F16bmathis said:


> I was under the assumtion there would be no voltage present at the controller just because I was charging the batteries. I should not assume, therefore I use wrenches to test, maybe it would be better to just grab a meter and check it, but I would have never thought I'd have anything to worry about, so just before I grab the 4:00 wire, I decided to "test" it with a wrench, not really expecting anything to happen, but it was safer than just grabbing the darn wire and going for it.
> 
> No breakers tripped, charger kept charging. Of course I didn't keep the wrench shorted for long. Seems I have a reflex action of some sort.
> 
> ...


There is nothing wrong with your charger. It's suppose to have AC line voltage at the batteries, with respect to ground, when charging. 

It is very important to ground the vehicle chassis to the charger AC line ground, I believe through the green wire at the Anderson connector. If the chassis is not grounded, a leakage from the propulsion battery circuit will make the car body "hot", a very dangerous condition.

I am assuming you are not GFI protected? Rudman chargers require a GFI protected outlet. So does the NEC. Article 625.

Be careful. Keep your hands in your pockets.

Russ Kaufmann

RUSSCO


----------



## F16bmathis (Jun 6, 2008)

OOps, let me read that Manzanita manual again. The charger is not "wired" ground to the trucks ground. AND I DO have a short of the batteries to the trucks ground, though its just a humidity short that goes away with a blow dryer over the batteries for a few minutes.

I just would'nt have thought they'd have it configured to electrocute someone who's working on what should be an isolated system. Or is it that they don't, but a pack short is causing this?

Either way, my gardian angel says I have to quit working on the truck when its plugged in or he quits!


----------



## spdas (Nov 28, 2009)

FWIW. I am pretty stupid and lazy and want to do it quick even when I deal with electricity. but I NEVER go down this path: 

"I was under the assumption there would be no voltage present at the controller". 

I am always under the assumption that there IS voltage present. Now especially dealing with 150v or so. And if i have a "senior moment" I think through what I am about to do and not automatically do it.

Francis


----------



## frodus (Apr 12, 2008)

they're not isolated chargers. Not sure if you understand... let me elaborate, that means the input and the output are not isolated from eachother. This charger is non-isolated. The negative terminal of the battery is connected to the negative terminal of a rectifier bridge with the AC terminals connected to the incoming line through a breaker.

You should be using a GFCI at the very least.


----------



## DIYguy (Sep 18, 2008)

Russco said:


> Normal for a non-isolated charger to have a high voltage AC on the battery pack when charging.
> 
> Russ Kaufmann
> 
> RUSSCO


This must be what you meant when you were talking about those quality EV parts made in America, Russ... hehehe (sorry, couldn't resist)


----------



## EVfun (Mar 14, 2010)

There are about 3 things you can do for line safety. You really should be doing 2 of them. 
1. Use an isolated charger. The Manzanita Micro is not one so 2 and 3 would be good ideas.
2. Ground the vehicle frame when the charger is plugged in. This bleeds charge off the car and if a serious short happens it will blow the breaker.
3. Use a GFCI device. A ground fault circuit interrupt device compares the power flowing in input hot lines. If the current differs by more than a few milliamps (usually 4-6ma or about 20 ma) it will trip.
Oh, I do not recommend working on a car that is plugged in! I don't care what charger you have because isolation can fail too.


----------



## Russco (Dec 23, 2008)

DIYguy said:


> This must be what you meant when you were talking about those quality EV parts made in America, Russ... hehehe (sorry, couldn't resist)


Point taken. But I would think the Rudman charger came with a manual printed in English. The Chinese charger malfunction that started the thread you are making reference too, as I recall, did not come with a manual, which started the customer's whole problem.

Since I manufacture a non-isolated charger also, my charger is equipped with a built in GFCI. No one should be messing around with the EV wiring when charging and I bet the Rudman charger user in this thread didn't have a GFCI protected outlet. So much for manuals. 

Russ Kaufmann 

RUSSCO


----------



## DIYguy (Sep 18, 2008)

Russco said:


> Point taken. But I would think the Rudman charger came with a manual printed in English. The Chinese charger malfunction that started the thread you are making reference too, as I recall, did not come with a manual, which started the customer's whole problem.
> 
> Since I manufacture a non-isolated charger also, my charger is equipped with a built in GFCI. No one should be messing around with the EV wiring when charging and I bet the Rudman charger user in this thread didn't have a GFCI protected outlet. So much for manuals.
> 
> ...


You're absolutely right. The documentation leaves a lot to be desired,...even when you do get it. That said, the Elcon charger actually didn't malfunction... I believe the battery voltage was too low. I also think re-sellers have a responsibility to make sure they have proper documentation for their customers. (just my twisted take on it... )


----------



## VoltsCar (Oct 26, 2010)

So where would one install the GFCI with a Manzanita charger?


----------



## EVfun (Mar 14, 2010)

On the end of the charge cord, like seen on many hair dryers, would be one option. Since outdoor and garage outlets are supposed to have GFCI protection built in you shouldn't need to add it if you have a newer home. There are less options for 240 vac GFCI protectors, but they are available because they are used on hot tub installations.


----------



## F16bmathis (Jun 6, 2008)

spdas said:


> FWIW. I am pretty stupid and lazy and want to do it quick even when I deal with electricity. but I NEVER go down this path:
> 
> "I was under the assumption there would be no voltage present at the controller".
> 
> ...


 
Me too!! Thats why I used the wrench to check it real quick!

I didn't think any voltage should be present, unless something was wrong. Looks like something is wrong. I haven't found the manzanita manual yet, but I don't remember it showing the chargers ground going to the trucks ground. Actually, I thought it would have wanted them seperated, but then if there's a pack short to the trucks ground, it would cause the truck to be hot while charging......

I'm about as smart as the wrench I used to check the V. Glad EV's are so easy to build!


----------



## tomofreno (Mar 3, 2009)

> So where would one install the GFCI with a Manzanita charger?


 I just installed it in a sub panel in the garage, and ran it to a 240VAC outlet I install right next to the sub panel. I use one of those 240V/30A "generator" extension cords sold at Home Depot to plug in the car (I pull at most about 16A).


----------



## VoltsCar (Oct 26, 2010)

EVfun said:


> On the end of the charge cord, like seen on many hair dryers, would be one option. Since outdoor and garage outlets are supposed to have GFCI protection built in you shouldn't need to add it if you have a newer home. There are less options for 240 vac GFCI protectors, but they are available because they are used on hot tub installations.





tomofreno said:


> I just installed it in a sub panel in the garage, and ran it to a 240VAC outlet I install right next to the sub panel. I use one of those 240V/30A "generator" extension cords sold at Home Depot to plug in the car (I pull at most about 16A).


So in the car, or on the wall?


----------



## frodus (Apr 12, 2008)

where is the charger?

Think about what you're trying to protect.....


----------



## azdeltawye (Dec 30, 2008)

Best bet with a non-isolated charger would be to not work on the truck while charging. 

Why take the risk...


----------



## F16bmathis (Jun 6, 2008)

I checked and found just over 100 VDC on all connections, and switched to AC and got about 20 VAC. Also checked the chargers ground wire to the trucks ground and got nothing.

Wasn't brave (or stupid) enough to reach down and check the voltage across the motor. Kinda concerns me as the motor was hot after an hour since my 15 mile drive in below 32 degree weather, making me believe there's voltage across the motor when charging.

If I ever get the time...


----------



## rwaudio (May 22, 2008)

F16bmathis said:


> I checked and found just over 100 VDC on all connections, and switched to AC and got about 20 VAC. Also checked the chargers ground wire to the trucks ground and got nothing.
> 
> Wasn't brave (or stupid) enough to reach down and check the voltage across the motor. Kinda concerns me as the motor was hot after an hour since my 15 mile drive in below 32 degree weather, making me believe there's voltage across the motor when charging.
> 
> If I ever get the time...


If there was enough voltage across the motor to make it warm during charging, then your controller is messed up, and the motor would be trying to turn. This would be a very bad situation and highly unlikely, not to mention it being a very unsafe vehicle.


----------



## Russco (Dec 23, 2008)

F16bmathis said:


> I checked and found just over 100 VDC on all connections, and switched to AC and got about 20 VAC. Also checked the chargers ground wire to the trucks ground and got nothing.
> 
> If I ever get the time...


Does your Curtis controller have a precharge resistor across the contactor? If so, the B+ of the controller and all motor connections will have DC HV with respect to battery negative. This is normal.

You will ALWAYS have a DC potential with respect to chassis due to leakage. This is normal.

You may have nothing wrong. 

Russ Kaufmann

RUSSCO


----------



## F16bmathis (Jun 6, 2008)

I like your answer the best, nothings wrong. The precharge resistor is on the positive side just after the main disconnect, so the voltage I'm seeing has gone through the controller.

The controller (Curtis 1231C) has been upgraded to a 650 amp. It runs great! Went over 10,000 miles yesterday, and raced a full size PU on the highway this morning! (He was one of those people who shift lanes constantly, though they never seem to do any better than the rest of us)

Maybe I do have nothing wrong.


----------



## F16bmathis (Jun 6, 2008)

rwaudio said:


> If there was enough voltage across the motor to make it warm during charging, then your controller is messed up, and the motor would be trying to turn. This would be a very bad situation and highly unlikely, not to mention it being a very unsafe vehicle.


Yeah, that would be bad, I'll check it ASAP. Probably not happening though, just running a hot motor. Warp 9" on a 148V pack doing 65-70 down the highway.


----------



## rwaudio (May 22, 2008)

F16bmathis said:


> Yeah, that would be bad, I'll check it ASAP. Probably not happening though, just running a hot motor. Warp 9" on a 148V pack doing 65-70 down the highway.


That would be the most likely cause of heat. The Warp 9 is a big chunk of metal it's going to hold that heat for awhile. Good luck finding the problem.


----------



## EVfun (Mar 14, 2010)

F16bmathis said:


> (He was one of those people who shift lanes constantly, though they never seem to do any better than the rest of us)


Oh, I gladly let those guys go. They clear the cops out for me.


----------



## F16bmathis (Jun 6, 2008)

Yesterday, the power to the truck had popped the breaker at work, so it didn't charge most of its cycle. Got home and plugged it in, and now I can hear a loud hummimg coming from the FRONT of the truck, possibly just under and behind the firewall. Maybe thats where my short is?

Gonna pull it out and inspect. I'll drive the Gas guzzling Prius for now.


----------



## F16bmathis (Jun 6, 2008)

Turned the charger on to see where the buzzing was coming from and heard it crackling instead. It was arching inside the motor!!! , controller off, truck off, just charger on. Disconnected this and that and finally got it to go away with the positive cable disconnected from the pack, but the chargers + still connected. Also had a short that was gone once the + HV was disconnected. Going to re-wire, might use 4/0 since I have some lying around. Got some work to do.

The pack short was close to 0V at the positive end, and 148V at the negative end to trucks ground. After disconnecting +HV, the V to truck ground was about 20V on either side.

Also, I was measuring the V going through the motor, got higher and higher till the arching, then dropped down and started going up again.


----------



## gdirwin (Apr 7, 2009)

How does the motor get connected if you are only charging (ie the ignition is off)? 

I would suggest using 2 contactors (one +ve and one -ve) and the only thing that can turn-on the +ve contactor is your motor controller (ie ignition on, turned to start and after all self-tests are completed). The -ve contactor should get turned on if you the ignition is on or if the charger is connected (I use a switch on my fuel filler door where my electrical plug is). This way there is no chance of the motor getting power through the charger...


----------



## Russco (Dec 23, 2008)

gdirwin said:


> How does the motor get connected if you are only charging (ie the ignition is off)?
> 
> I would suggest using 2 contactors (one +ve and one -ve) and the only thing that can turn-on the +ve contactor is your motor controller (ie ignition on, turned to start and after all self-tests are completed). The -ve contactor should get turned on if you the ignition is on or if the charger is connected (I use a switch on my fuel filler door where my electrical plug is). This way there is no chance of the motor getting power through the charger...


Very true. But that just bypasses the problem. Sort of like the penny under the fuse trick. 

Duh!

There is a carbon build up in the motor or some other leakage from the HV circuit to vehicle chassis.

Your GFCI AC circuit breaker to the charger should have tripped. 

Why didn't it? 

Russ Kaufmann

RUSSCO


----------



## F16bmathis (Jun 6, 2008)

gdirwin said:


> How does the motor get connected if you are only charging (ie the ignition is off)?
> 
> I would suggest using 2 contactors (one +ve and one -ve) and the only thing ...on my fuel filler door where my electrical plug is). This way there is no chance of the motor getting power through the charger...


The Positive cable was shorted to truck ground, somehow, the cable looks good, but then... and the negative side is connected to the controller and motor. The motors case is directly connected to the trucks ground. 

Still, the + cable had a few chaffing areas, but nothing I'd call a short, or even close, but then it is HV.

A second contactor would work, though I'd spend $$$ and still have had the short. I'm going to route a 4/0 cable through PVC and seal it. I've been meaning to upgrade to 4/0 anyways.


----------



## F16bmathis (Jun 6, 2008)

Russco said:


> Very true. But that just bypasses the problem. Sort of like the penny under the fuse ...chassis.
> 
> Your GFCI AC circuit breaker to the charger should have tripped.
> 
> ...


I dont have a GFCI breaker, maybe the electrical inspector didn't know what he was doing? Plus, the amps draw was less than what would have caused the breaker to trip. Seems it did draw enough at work to trip thier breaker, and might have at my house, but I didn't let it run on long enough. It started as a crackling sound, and I could see the arching in the motor. After letting it go for a while, it turned into a humming sound. So I shut it off. My KWH went from my usual 10kwh to 20kwh the last charge.


----------



## EVfun (Mar 14, 2010)

I would guess that the breaker at your work had GFCI protection built into the breaker and/or possibly arc fault protection. If you are on a breaker with built in GFCI you don't have the test and reset buttons on the outlet and you cannot reset it without going to the service panel.

You should install, or have installed, GFCI protection on any garage or outdoor outlet in your home. It is not standard on older homes. GFCI protection should also be installed in the kitchen and bathroom outlets. This is standard on newer homes.


----------



## F16bmathis (Jun 6, 2008)

EVfun said:


> I would guess that the breaker at your work had GFCI protection built into the breaker and/or possibly arc fault protection. If you are on a breaker with built in GFCI you don't have the test and reset buttons on the outlet and you cannot reset it without going to the service panel.
> 
> You should install, or have installed, GFCI protection on any garage or outdoor outlet in your home. It is not standard on older homes. GFCI protection should also be installed in the kitchen and bathroom outlets. This is standard on newer homes.


Breaker at work is a normal breaker. They did have the GFCI installed with 110VAC outlets, till someone re-wired it for a 220VAC outlet cause the 110VAC outlet was pulling so many amps, it heated up the wire and breakers inside when doing our yearly thermal (whats that called?) scans.

My 220 in the garage was just installed and inspected last year. They never mentioned GFCI. But even then, I don't think it'd pop. The ground fault isn't to actual ground, its to the trucks ground, so the outlet only sees an increase in amps, not a fault. Eventually my C/B in the basement would have faulted. 

I should probably get a GFCI outlet just for cheap insurance.


----------



## F16bmathis (Jun 6, 2008)

Hey, any suggestions on insulating the HV cable. I had it just laying on the frame, tied down, was going to put it in PVC, but had idea to just put it in that pipe insulating foam and tie wrap it, slit facing downwards to let any water out. Very flexible, and insulating. Good or bad idea?


----------



## F16bmathis (Jun 6, 2008)

Thought I had it, but I don't. I replaced the Negative HV cable going to the Curtis's B- and highly insulated it, and it still arc's across the motor.

I also checked the main pack to trucks frame and got -3.8VDC on the #46 neg post, -.52 on #46 pos post, and +2.8 on #45 pos post, and so on till the most pos post at battery #1 had almost full pack voltage!

When the charger is on, I get 103VDC at #46's Neg post to frame, and 50 VAC.

If I disconnect the B- from the Curtis, there is no arc'ing, but the battery pack still shows a short. Looks like in between batts 45 and 46, but nothing is connected other than MiniBMS with no end board connected (Still have a pack to frame short)

I'm going to try disconnecting the main charger and see what pack reads to frame, then disconnect DC/DC and re-check. DC/DC (IOTA) is always on, goes to full charger with ign key on.

I'm dead till I figure this out.


----------



## EVfun (Mar 14, 2010)

Now I understand why your charging is lacking GFCI protection -- it's not commonly installed on 240 vac circuits. It is available because it is required for hot tub systems.

I suspect your motor has an internal short to ground. Try disconnecting both motor cable from the controller (or from the motor if you tape up the terminals so they cannot short to the frame.) Then try charging and see if everything is O.K. Slight grounding from the motor is not uncommon, but usually they don't get worse than about 5000 ohms to ground. That is just a fraction of an amp which won't trip a breaker from over current. It is possible it tripped the breaker at work because it has arc-fault protection, but tripping a breaker for arc detection or excess current hints at an internal motor short.


----------



## F16bmathis (Jun 6, 2008)

EVfun said:


> Now I understand why your charging is lacking GFCI protection -- it's not commonly installed on 240 vac circuits. It is available because it is required for hot tub systems.
> 
> I suspect your motor has an internal short to ground. Try disconnecting ...or excess current hints at an internal motor short.


When I disconnect the B- from the Curtis, it goes away. Its wierd though, I measured the V across the motor to frame and got 20V and it kept going up till it got to around 100V then snap, crackle, and pop, got arc'ing and the V went back down to 20V and started all over again. It could easily be the motor having a short, things got salt spray all over it. Once I ge it running again, I'll run it to the carwash and power wash it again, get all the salt off.

Just disconnected the chargers (main and DC/DC) and now my battery pack short centered on battery #35, and it seemed to move around. One moment its centered on 35, next its on 40, then back...

Also found a bad battery. Post is melted, black stuff, and go figure it was the one that didnt shunt last charge. I have plastic thats dirty, so couldn't see the bad post.

So at last count, thats three problems! I think I'm done for a while...New battery should be here any day, I'll try clean the motor...


----------



## F16bmathis (Jun 6, 2008)

Got a little too hot?


----------



## F16bmathis (Jun 6, 2008)

Don't know if you read all the other posts here, but I've now pulled battery #46 and the short is gone. I also put a 10k resistor across my meter leads which seems to help get rid of erronious readings. I just inspected and cleaned the battery, can't find anything other than humidity/salt spray? on it, so I washed it and am going to throw it back in. Got a melted battery, see above, going to pull it and just bypass it till my new batt shows up. (if ever)


----------



## F16bmathis (Jun 6, 2008)

Spent all weekend pulling all the MiniBMS's off the batteries, washing them with soap and water, rinse, putting it back together. The short went away. Then turned on the charger and the motor was arcing again. Also, I tried to rotate the motor and it seemed locked in place. checked ohm from motor terminal to ground, and everywhere was only a few ohms. Plus when initially turning the charger on, there is a loud relay thunking sound coming from up front "Curtis?" and then I get the arcing, but if I turn it on then off and back on again, the loud relay sound does not come back. Maybe something inside the Curtis?

I finally decided to just disconnect the Curtis B- when charging and re-connect to drive. My Zilla is on its way back, I'm hoping the Curtis is bad and replacing it with the Zilla will fix everything.


----------



## EVfun (Mar 14, 2010)

I don't think "hoping" is the correct response. You need to find out what is wrong. We're not playing with D cells here.

The thing is, your main contactor disconnects B+ and you disconnect B- which would cover up any possible motor issues. I'm not aware of any problem with the Curtis likely to cause the symptoms you are experiencing. If you hear arcing in the motor something is very wrong.


----------



## F16bmathis (Jun 6, 2008)

EVfun said:


> I don't think "hoping" is the correct response. You need to find out what is wrong. We're not playing with D cells here.
> 
> The thing is, your main contactor disconnects B+ and you disconnect B- which would cover up any possible motor issues. I'm not aware of any problem with the Curtis likely to cause the symptoms you are experiencing. If you hear arcing in the motor something is very wrong.


I've done everything I can think of to find the problem. The B+ is disconnected, the batteries were cleaned and dried, the short went away, I removed the HV cables and cleaned and insulated them, I removed the connections on the motor and cleaned them. 

I'm out of ideas. 

There is a clunking noise when I first turn on the charger, if I turn it back off then back on, I don't hear it, so I assume its the Curtis getting the full charger voltage initially. When the B- is connected to the charger when charging, I tried to rotate the motor to see if the arcing got better or worse, but I couldn't rotate the motor! I turned the charger off and tried to rotate the motor again, and in seconds I was able to easily. So I'm sure it was electricaly locked, but then it could have also been an arc burn and I just was able to "break" it once I turned the charger off.

My Zilla will arrive today, I'll put it in ASAP, and if the problem goes away, it'll have to be the Curtis. I'm at a loss to anything else at this time.


----------



## F16bmathis (Jun 6, 2008)

Should there be any resistance from any motor terminal to the trucks frame? Warp 9" series wound...


----------



## Russco (Dec 23, 2008)

F16bmathis said:


> Should there be any resistance from any motor terminal to the trucks frame? Warp 9" series wound...


In theory, there should be no resistance from the motor terminals to chassis. In practice, 100,000 ohms is common. If the resistance is very low, such as under 1000 ohms, there's a problem, Houston. In this case, remove both wires connecting the motor and measure again. If the resistance is still low, the motor will have to come out and be disassembled. 

Russ Kaufmann

RUSSCO


----------



## F16bmathis (Jun 6, 2008)

Russco said:


> In theory, there should be no resistance from the motor terminals to chassis. In practice, 100,000 ohms is common. If the resistance is very low, such as under 1000 ohms, there's a problem, Houston. In this case, remove both wires connecting the motor and measure again. If the resistance is still low, the motor will have to come out and be disassembled.
> 
> Russ Kaufmann
> 
> RUSSCO


Oh yeah, either I have a shorted motor, or a bad fluke meter! I'll check again tonight. Always did want to try installing the 12" forklift motor and see how it performs vs the Warp 9!

This would explain the heat from the motor hours after driving in 20 degtree weather and the motor "locked" condition while charging. Still drives fine though.


----------



## DIYguy (Sep 18, 2008)

Russco said:


> In theory, there should be no resistance from the motor terminals to chassis.


huh??? None, as in ...."infinity"? lol


----------



## F16bmathis (Jun 6, 2008)

DIYguy said:


> huh??? None, as in ...."infinity"? lol


Oh burn!


----------



## F16bmathis (Jun 6, 2008)

Finally found it. Its salt spray on the HV negative cable. I disconnected cables until the short went away, cleaned the cable off (it wasn't shorted to the frame anywhere) and re-installed. The short kept moving, it is also on the HV positive cable, and also inside the motor. Its getting warmer, so I'm going to high pressure wash everything, clean what I can, go to 4/0 HV cable this summer, and route them inside a watertight tube to prevent this in the future.


----------



## F16bmathis (Jun 6, 2008)

Didn't find it! Just blew up the Curtis 1231C, not even trying to go really, just putzing along. Then I get my Zilla back in, and the Manzanita had enough, blew it too!


----------



## EVfun (Mar 14, 2010)

I'm pretty sure this short is *inside* the motor! Where on the motor did you see the arcing? 

I would disconnect both wires from the motor and check with your DMM between each of the terminals and the motor case for any continuity. If it passes this test it should be retested with a fairly high DC voltage present between the windings and the case. There are additional safety requirements for that test.

Something an old instructor of mine taught me, "Electricity doesn't care what YOU think is the shortest path to ground."


----------



## F16bmathis (Jun 6, 2008)

EVfun said:


> I'm pretty sure this short is *inside* the motor! Where on the motor did you see the arcing?
> 
> I would disconnect both wires from the motor and check with your DMM between each of the terminals and the motor case for any continuity. If it passes this test it should be retested with a fairly high DC voltage present between the windings and the case. There are additional safety requirements for that test.
> 
> Something an old instructor of mine taught me, "Electricity doesn't care what YOU think is the shortest path to ground."


Sorry, thought I had posted that somewhere. I actually took video of the acr'ing. Yes, it's inside the motor, you can see the arc happen inside from a brush wire to the screen that covers the access holes. If it didn't arc, it hummed! The motor reads "0" ohms to the trucks frame, or even its own frame, with all connections off. I had cleaned it just before I blew the charger and it went away, but after blowing the charger, the "0" ohms had come back.

There will be a motor removal and cleaning, maybe even install the forklift motor. Its bigger, so better?

Looking for a fix to the charger, but getting no replies from Manzanita yet. They don't have a tab for "repair", just "contact us", so I'm not sure they repair them. Got a friend who can get into it, but not for some time, and I owe him a Curtis now...

Tore open the Manzanita, it doesn't have any huge capacitors I expected from where the manual says to disconnect the main pack in the middle before connecting the charger or it will blow the caps... Did find as I put a meter on the input power wires, it reads flat 0 ohms. Blows the C/B in the house as soon as power is applied and the chargers C/B's are engaged.


----------



## EVfun (Mar 14, 2010)

F16bmathis said:


> The motor reads "0" ohms to the trucks frame, or even its own frame, with all connections off.
> 
> There will be a motor removal and cleaning, maybe even install the forklift motor. Its bigger, so better?
> 
> Looking for a fix to the charger, but getting no replies from Manzanita yet. They don't have a tab for "repair", just "contact us", so I'm not sure they repair them.


When the motor is out I would pull the armature out of the case and look it over. Perhaps a growler test could be arranged, but I'm guessing you will be able to find the problem(s).

Manzanita Micro does repair the chargers because I recently had the timer board on mine fixed. It is a small outfit and I usually find it easiest to call during business hours or shortly after business hours (Pacific time zone.)


----------



## F16bmathis (Jun 6, 2008)

EVfun said:


> When the motor is out I would pull the armature out of the case and look it over. Perhaps a growler test could be arranged, but I'm guessing you will be able to find the problem(s).
> 
> Manzanita Micro does repair the chargers because I recently had the timer board on mine fixed. It is a small outfit and I usually find it easiest to call during business hours or shortly after business hours (Pacific time zone.)


Just finished repairing the charger. It was the rectifier (FB5006) shorted like a bad dog! I'm sure the shorted motor caused it. The motor's coming out tommorrow, might put the forklift motor in... maybe not. The Curtis is fried! So I owe cost of a used one to my buddy. Anyone know what an avergae price for a used Curtis is? I sold mine for a grand a few months ago, but figured the guy needed some $$$ help to get him started.


----------



## F16bmathis (Jun 6, 2008)

The motor is out. Shorted S1, S2 to frame. Nothing obvious at this point. Will be tearing apart tonight.


----------



## EVfun (Mar 14, 2010)

F16bmathis said:


> The motor is out. Shorted S1, S2 to frame. Nothing obvious at this point. Will be tearing apart tonight.


If the field is shorted but if the armature isn't it should be easily repairable.


----------



## F16bmathis (Jun 6, 2008)

EVfun said:


> If the field is shorted but if the armature isn't it should be easily repairable.


The motor is out, I took the rotor (armature?) out and power washed it. The Stators (field?) is still shorted to the motors frame.

Is this easily fixable? I'm about ready to unbolt the field coils and pull them out of the motor, but the wire bolts look like they might break, or I have to cut them (unsolder?) the leads to remove.

Any advice is wanted! As you can tell, I'm not even very good with the verbage!


----------



## F16bmathis (Jun 6, 2008)

EVfun said:


> If the field is shorted but if the armature isn't it should be easily repairable.


I pulled the motor, removed the rotor, just now I have it at work and managed to pull the field coils. when I was pulling what I called coil #3 loose, the short went away. After getting the coils out, found #3 had the insulation material slightly off to one side, it had also burnt up the edge of that insulation. So I inspected for further damage, found nothing obvious, and wrapped some tape someone handed me that looks like the stuff used in the motor all around the damaged area, making sure to add my "more is better" touch.

All re-installed, amazingly fast, pretty easy to do.

Thanks for all the help!


----------

