# LiFEPo4 sitting several months NOT hooked up = freaking about self discharge = Brick?



## bwjunkie (Jul 31, 2013)

Your post kind of sounds like spam, so if it is, you need to brush up on your skils, but I'll try to answer:

They aren't your best choice if you don't know how to charge and discharge and use a voltmeter on your own batteries. You were better off using a smaller retailer. But anyway...

Just measure them with a voltmeter, one by one. Mine arrived sitting around 3.25 volt. I doubt there will be any self-discharge, just go measure and report.

josh


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## recent newb (Feb 21, 2016)

Ha. Wow... I guess if I read my post in a different light it DOES sound like a huge sob story from out of the country looking for donations. Oops. Sorry. - I don't want any body's money or information. I just want guidance.

I apologize if I came off wrong, unfortunately every detail is completely true and I have run into the whole "You don't know what you don't know" thing, despite having done alot of research. I am still new to this and I did go through a small company. THEY just went through the other guys. 

Anyway, to the point...The enclosure was originally shipped right at 6 mo. ago... so it has been sitting for that long.

It is a 27kwh *48Volt* bank in an *EXTERNAL* *Enclosure*. The company has updated their products and the original product page but it would fall under this current page's category: http://www.balqon.com/residential-en...orage-ess-r24/

Mine is in an enclosure similar to this one:

< http://www.balqon.com/online-store/#!/Commercial-Energy-Storage-50-kWhr/p/48565112/category=12286450 >

I can't get a hold of Balqon to get a user manual that they never sent, nor is there one on their website. So I am reticent to just crack into the thing and start checking cell voltages.

But mine does not have the fancy display. Just a simple one that will show a general "% charge led" Which may be good enough. So I could push the on button and probably see what it says, but I'm not sure I want to until I get a Battery Charger and am immediately ready to hook it up.

The enclosure itself has two connector points on the side that in theory I believe I just stick the leads in and tighten the knobs around it.

The option of hooking up the inverter/charge controller board (Schneider Pre Wired Inverter with two Midnite classic 150 Charge Controllers Model # MNXWP6848-2CL150) right now is not an option due to all of that being away in storage and the panels not up yet. The battery bank is in my back yard.

I read extensively about the threats of over discharging, but was ignorant of the whole "self-discharge" thing.

The entire system that was put together was to be more or less self regulating once installed and set up.


I appreciate your stance on jumping in too deep, and I wholeheartedly agree, but in my defense, all pride having been stripped expensively away... 
A) the plan and the assurances of the solar company I went through (out of state) was to have all the components here within a month's time, and then I would install the mounts/panels myself and hire a local professional to hook everything up and walk us through the really advanced stuff. 
B) I don't think Shakespeare himself could have foreseen or written such a ridiculous tragedy/comedy of errors such as these last 6 months!

Sincerely


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

Hi

Self discharge in the cells is not likely to be a problem 
BUT that unit may have internal discharge that would become a problem over a matter of month

(1) - buy a voltmeter - you will need one

(2) - carefully take the lid off so that you can see the cells - look for tamper paint on any of the screws and photograph it - so you can replace it later

(3) - check the cell voltages

(4) - report back on what you find


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## Chris Pincetich (Nov 30, 2015)

A picture is worth a thousand words, or more. So post some pics of what ya got!


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## dougingraham (Jul 26, 2011)

The cells themselves can be stored for years if not connected to anything at all. However, it sounds like they are in a container and possibly connected to other circuitry (BMS). That other circuitry could discharge and imbalance the pack.

Best wishes on your project.


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## onegreenev (May 18, 2012)

Balqon was the first sign of trouble. They don't have a very good reputation. Sucky customer service and questionable sales practices. Yes, check the cells but please get some photos of the units with the tops on and off so we can see what is connected. If anything is connected internally you may have trouble but the voltage meter will be your friend here. Get a decent one because many of the cheap ones crap out and if it does you still won't know. Use Good tools always.


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## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

If the delay in charging them is because you won't have panels hooked up for awhile, you can use something else to charge them. The panels are chargers, but the battery does not know if the charge is coming from a solar charger or from a charger that you lug into a wall. Charge is charge. I would take the wise advice that others have left here on this thread and buy that meter right away and learn to use it.


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## Sunking (Aug 10, 2009)

He has posted this same question on several forums.


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## onegreenev (May 18, 2012)

So a BS post. Got it.


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## recent newb (Feb 21, 2016)

I get back into town Sunday afternoon. If the weather is clear I'll take pix and log all the cell voltages. 

Thanks for those offering constructive advice. I am greatly appreciative. 

And if my post is "BS" because I also posted onto 2 other forums, then I'm sorry to have wasted your time. I did not realize that the exact same people, with the exact same expertise, frequent the exact three forums. Thanks for being so welcoming. 

If you don't know what you don't know then wisdom states to pursue guidance from different sources and not put all your eggs in one basket. Not everyone is so proud and jaded as to simply dismiss or attack those with less knowledge or in legitimate need.


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## onegreenev (May 18, 2012)

We have lots of stuff that flows through this site that is just BS. When people post on multiple sites trying to gain information usually raises flags of troll or something. It is the nature of forums. Have patience my friend. No need to post on multiple sites. Post then wait for an answer. Give it some time. Don't expect instant results. We wish to help but we have wasted lots of time on bull shit posts in the past. 


Check your stuff then post. We are happy to help those that are for real.


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## recent newb (Feb 21, 2016)

Ah. I see. - I can see that. I am definitely a "forums newbie". Google kinda led me. Haha. 

Thank you. Really. I will.


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## recent newb (Feb 21, 2016)

Hey guys,

I switched on the enclosure today and I'll list the exact results below. The display has 2 buttons side by side that each cycle through a top or bottom row of basic info. Without a manual, I assume they reflect the top and bottom level of batteries inside??? Or maybe they both represent the whole so you can check two different numbers at once. Cause both rows said the exact same thing as I cycled through both buttons.

" 0 A "
" 0 W "
" 52.4 V "
" 66F Tmp "
" 1.0 Ah "
" 52 Wh "
" E F "
" 0% Fuel "
" 0% SoC "
" 0 A "

I'll also attempt to upload the pictures I took. A couple of things I noticed immediately was: 

A) condensation on all the cross bars bridging cells. (stupid question, but how do I wipe them off without shorting anything out or electrocuting myself???)

B) the black squares on every 3 cells (8 on each level = 16 total) (the BMS Sensors???) were all blinking, even though I had the battery bank turned off.

C) the top row and the bottom row had 24 cells each. So the whole bank has a total of 48 cells. (Is that 1 cell for each of the 48V that the system is?)


I went by Home Depot and got a $99 Klein Multi Meter. - Depending on your advice I'll try to check the cells tomorrow. From the looks of the inside of the enclosure I'm not sure how many of the bottom row I can actually reach.

I'm still trying to figure out where I can actually go buy a 48v charger in person instead of having to order one online and wait. Even if I have to drive an hour away to get one. But if this thing is "dead" would there be any special instructions or specific charger to trying to revive it before officially pronouncing it a lost cause?

Thanks


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## recent newb (Feb 21, 2016)

A couple more pictures...


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## piotrsko (Dec 9, 2007)

Hair dryer works on condensation.

Golf course repair shop. Or forklift repair place. Both places have various styles of chargers.


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

I am surprised to see no banding or other means of compression of the cells. They don't even appear to be secure for shipment or moving the cabinet. It does appear to have a BMS system installed so there will be a parasitic drain. Spec claims self discharge of 1%/month. Most Li batteries are recommended to be shipped and stored at 50% SOC. But you never know for sure. I recommend you get a professional to help you or you risk losing your investment.

Also I think you should get the manual for the cells used. That should have info on compression and service and maintenance. One thing looks to be difficult in that cabinet is periodic torquing of the terminal bolts. I don't see how to get a torque wrench on each terminal.


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## Yabert (Feb 7, 2010)

First thing, your battery pack is in good shape. With 16 cells in series and a voltage of 52,4v that imply an average of 3,275v per cell and this is good.

With a multimeter, you can measure the voltage between each cell (actually comprised of three grey cell in parallel). Simply put each lead wire of the multimeter to each of the long aluminum bar (see picture). You should read around 3,25v and 3,30v.
If the voltage between multiple cells (let say 6 to 12 cells) is closely match at around 3,275v you can consider that all the other cells would be at the same voltage.
Any cell below 3.00v should be consider as problem.


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

Yabert said:


> ...
> Any cell above 3.00v should be consider as problem.


I think you mean below 3.00V, don't you?


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## Yabert (Feb 7, 2010)

recent newb said:


> condensation on all the cross bars bridging cells. (stupid question, but how do I wipe them off without shorting anything out or electrocuting myself???)


Maybe sponge or plastic squeegee.
At low voltage like 48v electrocuting yourself is almost impossible, but be careful about the shorting. Any conductor between almost any metal part of your battery can result in a freaking fire work.
So, no trouble to touch with your hands, but be careful with metal tool or others.



> B) the black squares on every 3 cells (8 on each level = 16 total) (the BMS Sensors???) were all blinking, even though I had the battery bank turned off.


Normal, powered by each cell. 16 cells in series. 16 BMS modules.
You can find the blinkink code in the mini BMS manual here: http://minibms.mybigcommerce.com/pages/Product-Support.html

I add another picture to help you understand the cell count. 
Good luck.


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## Yabert (Feb 7, 2010)

major said:


> I think you mean below 3.00V, don't you?


Oops! You are right. Second language errors 
Edit.


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## bwjunkie (Jul 31, 2013)

You could also try emailing Dmitri at [email protected] (miniBMS) with pictures and a SHORT paragraph of questions to see if he has any input.

On page 2 of the manual, says the parasitic drain of each cell module will go to sleep if LVC is reached, so there is not danger of damage to cells via BMS even if they sit for 2 years. Of course for storage of cells it's better if they are 50% SOC, so that feature is only an exception for safety.

Josh


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## recent newb (Feb 21, 2016)

Thank you all for your kind input.

I downloaded all the BMS stuff and will read it all thoroughly.

I'm running out today to get a golf cart charger and will charge for a few days an track how things go. I'll also prolly put a fan on the condensation.

It will probably be 2-3 months yet before it is put into official use so I thing putting charge into anyway may be prudent.


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

recent newb said:


> I'm running out today to get a golf cart charger and will charge for a few days an track how things go. I'll also prolly put a fan on the condensation.


Lithium batteries require different chargers than lead acid batteries for which golf cart chargers are intended. Also it is doubtful a golf cart charger will interface with the BMS. Using an incorrect charger could cause worse damage.


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## recent newb (Feb 21, 2016)

From what I'd read I got the impression that the main difference between the lead acid chargers and one meant specifically for Lithium had mainly to do with how the charger acts/reacts once it's full. I.e. turning off all the way vs. maintaining with a trickle...

Could I just hook the charger clamps onto where I would normally hook up the +/- from a charge controller/inverter?


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

recent newb said:


> From what I'd read I got the impression that the main difference between the lead acid chargers and one meant specifically for Lithium had mainly to do with how the charger acts/reacts once it's full. I.e. turning off all the way vs. maintaining with a trickle...
> 
> Could I just hook the charger clamps onto where I would normally hook up the +/- from a charge controller/inverter?


Yab said this:


Yabert said:


> First thing, your battery pack is in good shape. With 16 cells in series and a voltage of 52,4v that imply an average of 3,275v per cell and this is good.


So I would not do anything except try to get some expert advice or a proper operation manual.


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## recent newb (Feb 21, 2016)

Sweet.
Problem is actually getting a proper manual. I've been searching and trying for months with no luck. I even hit up another company that used to use Balqon stuff but I never got any responses.

I'll double check the voltage with my meter today. 

The display stating "0% SOC" and "0% Fuel" completely freaked me out. I truly thought I was screwed! - Again, if I ever got a user manual in the forst place I would have known all this already.


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

http://store.evtv.me/proddetail.php?prod=ca100fi. 
This should have link to the calb manual.


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## recent newb (Feb 21, 2016)

yes. this is really helpful. thank you

I actually ran across the Calb US site earlier and just downloaded everything they had. haha.

http://www.calbusainc.com/additional-information/


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-65069-p-14.html. 
While searching to see if compression banding of cells is still required to keep them from swelling I found that discussion. I was somewhat surprised the manual did not address it as it used to be considered critical in the installation of these cells.


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## recent newb (Feb 21, 2016)

wow. - that's alot of crazy info. My eyes are crossed now. Still not sure what the final consensus is in the end.

But, as you can see in the pix, there is no sort of banding whatsoever. If I had to do that though it would seem doable. maybe get an aluminum plat for each side that extends beyond the edge with holes for a couple long lag bolts and just squeeze them together. Eh?

Nice to know that I spent a gazillion dollars on a "complete" product...


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

That version of calb (gray prizmatic) is fairly recent. Could be plastic is strong enough. Used to be important and still is for pouch cells. Not a lot. Like 3-10 psi. Stiff plates on ends and banding or threaded rods to squeeze a bit. Swelling or bloating will cause cell internal resistance to increase as well as stress terminals.


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## recent newb (Feb 21, 2016)

Hey Guys,

attached are some close up pix of the BMS from inside the black box, the sensors, and the silver box with holes in it.

attached is also the map of readings. The organized blocks looking one is the bottom level, and the jigsaw puzzle looking one is the top level.

my multimeter read the bank total as 52.4v.

Listed out the readings are:

Top:
3.278
3.283
3.277
3.276
3.280
3.276
3.281
3.278

Bottom:
3.274
3.277
3.276
3.275
3.277
3.277
3.275
3.278

thanks.


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## dougingraham (Jul 26, 2011)

Those resting voltages are indicating to me that the cells are all around 25% SOC (State Of Charge). Probably be a good idea to give it a little boost. These batteries when new are shipped at near 50% SOC (approximately 3.3 volts). The BMS is probably a tiny load and you could be in trouble in several more months. So in the time it has been sitting you have lost an estimated 25% of the charge. I would consider this a reasonable drain. It also looks like the load on the individual cells is negligible so balance has not drifted too much.

Resting voltages much below 2.5 is a huge cause for concern. You are most likely months away from that.


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