# New Guy



## Psyphin-X (Aug 11, 2009)

i was also thinking, i'm sure other people have to. but what if you atatched alternators to the axels to recharge the batteries alittle, like a gas powered car would.

also i thought maybe the change in rpms on the axels would not run the alternators well enough. but what if you made some sort of flywheel or something to change the rpms delivered to the alternators?

not a car genius hear but it all seems to make sense in my head.


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## Amberwolf (May 29, 2009)

See this thread for why that won't work:
http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forum...-free-energy-perpetual-motion-over-13449.html

As for what parts/etc to use, you probably want to start by reading thru the wikis here about all the basics.
________
Live sex


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

Welcome.

You are thionking along the right lines, sort of.
You should be able to convert a Beatle to electric. Have a look in the 'garage' tab top right of the page and see what others have done.

As for the alternators thing, hmmmm. Done in the right way the drive motor can be used to regenerate electricity to help recharge the batteries. It is a more complicated process and isn't always worth while depending on the nature of your conversion and the type or roads you will be driving on.

Have a read of some of the conversion threads and you will see how other people are solving issues and making things work out.

If you look at mine you will see that I haven't got beyond the planning stage but you may also see how some of the thoughts fit together.


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## Psyphin-X (Aug 11, 2009)

hey thanks alot guys. i figured that the alternator wouldn't work (to simple of an idea) but i thought while i was here i would just throw it out there.

i will definitly keep this website saved for when i go to actually start building my car.

Thanks Again


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

You're welcome.

Keep reading the threads though. Some won't make much sense yet but it will all be useful information that will help you decide how you plan your build. There is also a lot of inspiring stories there to keep your interest.


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## Psyphin-X (Aug 11, 2009)

ok well my main thing is if i am looking for max distance and atleast ok acceleration, what am i looking for in a motor?

am i looking for volts over amps? or something else?

also what about a dual motor, one for low gear and then when that is maxed to switch to a second motor set for higher gears? also making a custom gearbox for each. just something my friends were thinking up.


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## dtbaker (Jan 5, 2008)

Psyphin-X said:


> ok well my main thing is if i am looking for max distance and atleast ok acceleration, what am i looking for in a motor?
> 
> am i looking for volts over amps? or something else?
> 
> also what about a dual motor, one for low gear and then when that is maxed to switch to a second motor set for higher gears? also making a custom gearbox for each. just something my friends were thinking up.


- keep it simple (one motor!)
- you'll need 96 to 120v worth of batteries
- lead is way cheaper than Li
- good compromise is using 8v golf cart batteries
- one motor, keep tranny and clutch, use adaptor plate...


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## Psyphin-X (Aug 11, 2009)

ok thank you


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## Psyphin-X (Aug 11, 2009)

there are just so many different types of electric motors out there.

Is a DC better than an AC?

i guess i just don't understand what specs i am looking at for the motor. when i think of an ICE i think size (HP, Torque, Cubic Inches, etc). it's just a different way to think of an engine, current instead of size. maybe i'll get it eventually.


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## dtbaker (Jan 5, 2008)

Psyphin-X said:


> there are just so many different types of electric motors out there.
> 
> Is a DC better than an AC?
> 
> i guess i just don't understand what specs i am looking at for the motor. when i think of an ICE i think size (HP, Torque, Cubic Inches, etc). it's just a different way to think of an engine, current instead of size. maybe i'll get it eventually.



DC motors are way less expensive, much simpler to wire, do not require invertor, operate at lower voltages, but not quite as efficient and cannot provide 'regenerative braking' from reversed polarity. So, for average EV a DC motor is a more likely solution.

peak HP is something to compare to gas, as is torque... an 8" DC motor with a 96v pack would have continuous HP rating around 20hp, and peak around 80hp. (about the same as a 1.3 liter 4 banger).


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## ClintK (Apr 27, 2008)

Psyphin-X said:


> helleo i've been looking into building an EV Car for some time now, money has always been an issue. i've been wanting to build a VW Beetle Electric Car. I just have to idea where to begin.
> 
> How can i figure out what parts (mainly motor) i should use? it would be mainly for distance instead of power but i thought i would be cool to atleast cruise around the 45mph mark.
> 
> ...


VW Bug is a very common conversion. I don't know anything about this company: http://e-volks.com/about.html but they apparently offer complete kits including the adapter plate and coupler. It will at least give you a good idea of the components involved.


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## Psyphin-X (Aug 11, 2009)

so then would i want more volts or more amps for a longer drive time?


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## Psyphin-X (Aug 11, 2009)

thanks alot for that post with that website. it might help me understand more about what i want to do, if nothing else i could just buy the whole kit too.


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## Psyphin-X (Aug 11, 2009)

so from what i have learned and gather from everybody else and my little tinkering it sounds like a good way to go is the Warp9 motor with 10 or 12 12V Lead Acid batteries. i seem to have a better grasp on what i would need in a motor and battery aray.

now for the controller what i can gather is that you would need one that can first off handle the amount of volts from your batteries (120-144V in this case) right?

and it seems like most people either want or have a controller thats around 400 Amps.

Other than that i'm not to sure.

But i think i'm getting now, thanks to everybody at this forum.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

Psyphin-X said:


> so then would i want more volts or more amps for a longer drive time?


Well, amps and volts go together to make power.

Volts x amps = Watts (power)

The more Watts you have the more powerful your motor will be, in a very simplified way as there are other factors involved.

However, you would have a preference towards more volts as for the same power you will use less amps.

The reason for using less amps is because lots of amps need bigger cables to flow through, if the cables are too small for the amps then they will get hot and melt. That is the way fuses work. Too many amps and the fuse wire melts.

So for more power the Volts go up.

Range is another matter.
If you want to go further you will need more amp hours (Ah) of capacity in your batteries, like having a bigger fuel tank in your ICE car. How many amps, at rated battery voltage, the battery can provide in an hour.

10 Ah means 10 amps in one hour or 20 amps in half an hour or 5 amps in 2 hours. Again this is simplified as there are other factors.

As you can see the more Ah you have the further you can go, or the quicker you could set off to get there, depending on these other factors again.

However, range is also affected by the rolling resistence of your vehicle, how hard it is to roll it along the ground, and air resistence, how hard it is to push through the air.

Now rolling resistence is pretty much consistent(ish) for your vehicle but air resistance increases as you go faster. It is a square factor, as you double your speed you quadruple your air resistance.

So for range you want to keep your speed low to reduce the resistance that your motor will have to work against. The harder the motor works the more amps it wants to draw with the given battery pack voltage to achieve the power it needs to keep working that fast.

And back to the top.


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## dtbaker (Jan 5, 2008)

Psyphin-X said:


> so from what i have learned and gather from everybody else and my little tinkering it sounds like a good way to go is the Warp9 motor with 10 or 12 12V Lead Acid batteries. i seem to have a better grasp on what i would need in a motor and battery aray.
> 
> now for the controller what i can gather is that you would need one that can first off handle the amount of volts from your batteries (120-144V in this case) right?
> 
> ...


yes mostly.  for a small car you'd probably want a Warp9, or ADC 8" motor, and a 400amp controller like a Curtis or other brand. 12v batts get your voltage up , but you'll be short on range because of the lower ahr. A good compromise is to use 8v deep cycle batts to get up to 96 or 120v. If you go higher (like to 144v) you'll need more expensive motor and controller.


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## Psyphin-X (Aug 11, 2009)

ok now i'm getting this. i'll do some more searching and find out what i would like to do.


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## Psyphin-X (Aug 11, 2009)

for batteries what about using something like a series of these http://www.batteryspace.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=5045 ?

they are light with good Ah. the only thing is you would need quite a few.


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## ClintK (Apr 27, 2008)

Psyphin-X said:


> for batteries what about using something like a series of these http://www.batteryspace.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=5045 ?
> 
> they are light with good Ah. the only thing is you would need quite a few.


LiFePO4s are the Lithium battery of choice for DIYers right now. EVComponents offers better prices though. I bought 3.2V, 100AHr cells from them for $110 + shipping/customs (as opposed to 3.2V, 20AHr for $50 + shipping).

EDIT: Also, I'd highly recommend going LiFePO4 over Lead. Much longer life, much lighter, and better performance. Prices have dropped to the point that they are priced the same (or cheaper) than Lead over the long term.


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## Psyphin-X (Aug 11, 2009)

so if i bought those i woould have to buy something like 30 to get me up to the 96V-120V area correct?

just making sure i understand this.

Also for the Ah rating when you add batteries together do you just add the Ah rating to get the total?


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## ClintK (Apr 27, 2008)

Psyphin-X said:


> so if i bought those i woould have to buy something like 30 to get me up to the 96V-120V area correct?
> 
> just making sure i understand this.


Yeup, I bought 30 of them to have a 96V 100AHr pack. My total with shipping / customs was $4200.


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## ClintK (Apr 27, 2008)

Psyphin-X said:


> Also for the Ah rating when you add batteries together do you just add the Ah rating to get the total?


Only if you put them in parallel. If in series you add voltage, if in parallel you add capacity. (Each parallel string must be at the same voltage.)

In the future, I plan on adding a second string of 30 cells (96V, 100AHr) in parallel. This will give my pack a total of 96V 200AHr.


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## Psyphin-X (Aug 11, 2009)

so what would you consider a good amount of Ah to have for an EV? i've been looking to build one for distance so i'm just trying to get the right idea.


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## ClintK (Apr 27, 2008)

Psyphin-X said:


> so what would you consider a good amount of Ah to have for an EV? i've been looking to build one for distance so i'm just trying to get the right idea.


What kind of distance do you have in mind?

The EV Calculator is an excellent resource for estimating your range: http://www.evconvert.com/tools/evcalc/
The "Thundersky" drop down is for I believe a 90 AHr LiFePO4 pack. With Lithium you can use a DOD of 80%. Increase the number of battery strings if you want more than 90 AHr. (2 for 180 AHr for example).

You'll find increasing voltage gets you much better range (it's more efficient), but prices of components can go up quick. In my opinion, 96V 100AHr is really minimum for car. If you want range (and have the money), go for 120V or 144V 200 AHr.


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## Psyphin-X (Aug 11, 2009)

well to put it this way i'm looking at about a 60 mile round trip commute at avarage speed of 45mph and a top speed of 60mph. i really would like to use a old VW Beetle (around 1200 pounds).

i am planning on using a Warp9 motor, from what i've read it seems to be fairly reliable and efficient.

would something like that be possible?


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## ClintK (Apr 27, 2008)

Psyphin-X said:


> well to put it this way i'm looking at about a 60 mile round trip commute at avarage speed of 45mph and a top speed of 60mph. i really would like to use a old VW Beetle (around 1200 pounds).
> 
> i am planning on using a Warp9 motor, from what i've read it seems to be fairly reliable and efficient.
> 
> would something like that be possible?


Old VWs are only 1200 lbs? A Warp9 will make a car that light fly.

For example...
A rule of thumb for range is 300 WHr/mile.
So 144V * 200 AH = 28800 WHr
Figure only go down to 80% DoD so you have 23040 WHr usable
23040 / 300 = 76.8 miles range

Now speed greatly affects WHr/mile, and I'm not sure what speed that rule of thumb is for. Check out evalbum.com and the garage here (top right link) for typical ranges for Lithiums / VWs.

EDIT: And to answer your questions, yes it's very possible - just not necessarily inexpensive.


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## Psyphin-X (Aug 11, 2009)

cool thank you very much.


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## Psyphin-X (Aug 11, 2009)

as for the VW Beetle, as far as i've been told that is about what they way. my dad has own 3 in the past and my grandma had one so i'll take their word for.

So whats the best way to reach that 144V and 200Ah with out breaking the bank. those LiFePO4 Batteries would end up costing over $10,000? I was looking at that budget for the whole conversion.


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## Psyphin-X (Aug 11, 2009)

ok so, so far i have a Netgain Warp9 Motor with a Curtis 1231C Controller. Any suggestions for batteries?


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## ClintK (Apr 27, 2008)

Psyphin-X said:


> So whats the best way to reach that 144V and 200Ah with out breaking the bank. those LiFePO4 Batteries would end up costing over $10,000? I was looking at that budget for the whole conversion.


You can easily get 200+AHr Lead batteries, but after you take into account the Peukerts effect and DoD, their true effectiveness is much lower.

And unfortunately you can't just throw in 400 AHr of lead... you get diminishing returns with the more you add to the car. Typically the longest range you can reach with Lead is about 40 miles. After that you're overloading the weight of the car. (Trucks can get away with a bit more.)

To reach 60-70 miles you're pretty much stuck with Lithium.

If you haven't checked out the Wiki on the site (link at the top right), you can browse through this article: http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showthread.php?t=11709


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## ClintK (Apr 27, 2008)

Psyphin-X said:


> ok so, so far i have a Netgain Warp9 Motor with a Curtis 1231C Controller. Any suggestions for batteries?


Both great choices.


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## few2many (Jun 23, 2009)

Didnt follow the thread too closely, forgive me if its been a completely
shot down idea. You can use a couple alternators for regen, put one on two or four of the wheels and have the brake pedal activate power to the rotors. This would only be regen. We all have a good idea why overunity wouldnt work(charge while you drive)


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## Psyphin-X (Aug 11, 2009)

The problem of that has been brought up, that was my original idea. but to power the alternators you are just going to create drag on the wheels which inturn is just going to make you use more power to compensate for that drag.

I would love to see somebody prove that wrong, but it does make alot of sense.

Maybe you will make more power then what is needed to compensate for the drag.


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## few2many (Jun 23, 2009)

Yeah, as noted, this would be good for regenerative breaking (regen) only. Actually using that powerfull drag to slow the vehicle down, put some power into the battery pack. 
Again, creating more power than youre using is called overunity and is pretty much impossible. Anyone who can prove this wrong has stumbled on the greatest (arguably) human discovery and would solve the worlds energy problems and be rich beyond dubais dreams and will propeel mankind into the cosmos(yeah, i can go on and on, overunity isnt happening)
check out http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forum...-free-energy-perpetual-motion-over-13449.html
and anything related to regenrative breaking, youre looking at a dc set up, so regen is tricky.


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## ClintK (Apr 27, 2008)

few2many said:


> Didnt follow the thread too closely, forgive me if its been a completely
> shot down idea. You can use a couple alternators for regen, put one on two or four of the wheels and have the brake pedal activate power to the rotors. This would only be regen. We all have a good idea why overunity wouldnt work(charge while you drive)


DC isn't very favorable if you want to do regen, but...

If you want regen, AC motors are perfect for it. No additional alternators on the wheels or on shafts or anything, just let your drive motor put power back into the batteries when you take your foot off the gas or hit the brakes.


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