# Squat - TPD's experience/development bike



## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

I was playing with the numbers for Squat, just for the fun of it, and found some nice "freebies". By running the batteries all in series, and over-volting the motor, to create a 96 volt system, it would have around 70 mph top speed, and 25-50 miles of range (hypermiling for the higher number). That would be possible in the same plan, if Scrape is able to pass down an Open Revolt controller, someday.

The eight AGMs in series would be 96 volts, but only 60 amps max draw, so the controller would have to make up for what the batteries couldn't supply. With the Headways, it would be 102.4v, and 150 amps max - more than enough.

Adding to all this, I just purchased a 58T rear sprocket that, combined with the extremely light overall weight, will substantially reduce the current needed for accelerating from a standstill. In Scrape, I pull 110-120 amps for a few seconds, then it quickly trails down to 30-40 amps. The motor is rated for 31 amps. I wasn't going to buy anything, other than the battery box supplies, but the bike has a 30-something tooth rear sprocket now and I didn't want to risk hurting the motor. Scrape's final drive ratio is 3.75:1, and Squat's will be 5.8:1 now. Combined with less weight, it should be really easy on that little motor. I am still going to have to pull it apart someday and bore cooling holes in the end caps, and fabricate a forced air cooling system.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

While I wait for parts to start streaming in for Scrape (beginning tomorrow), and to get myself in a CAD state of mind for some more mundane client projects I have to do this week, I designed Squat's seat. It's designed to appear much more involved and elaborate than it really is. A lot of stuff I've used before, arranged a little differently. Of course, my Bat-T logo, the crosshair rivet points from Scrape, tweaked and vectorized Photoshop lightning bolt, etc. The "stitched fringe" is just a string of 45-degree curves that I twisted around the perimeter.

The seat itself is just a scrap piece of aluminum I have (sitting on the bike in pic above), that will get a little chemical patina, and then be engraved on the CNC router. After that, I'll hammer some gentle rolls (to help keep me on the bike), and mount it. I think I am just going to do a simple flange and tab pivot up front, with hairpin springs in back.

The CAD curves, and a preview from the programming software.









I have an idea for a simple lower trim piece that would finish off the _illusion of sophistication_, and also serve as the tail light and turn signals. I can cut a, slightly sculptured, ring from a piece of acrylic that matches the shape, tapering from thin in front to thick in back, with LEDs embedded in it. Red in back and amber on the rear corners. Cut and engraved acrylic can be end-lit, meaning light directed into the sides will reflect in the cut portions. If I get the design right the light will be diffused but bright in back, where it's needed, and kind of fade away as it goes forward. Cheap trick.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

This is a part with production intent, that I decided to to do now, rather than later. The cheapo handlebars were the weak link in the project, and had to go. These are going to be smooth chopper style bars, where there are almost no apparent controls. With electric this is way too easy - no clutch, and no throttle cable needed. The grips will be the same diameter as the this tubing, and the right hand grip will be the throttle. That GM TPS will be mounted in the "V", and a rod from the throttle will turn it. I'm not going to hide the TPS, as I want people to notice it so I can explain how it works. Production versions will be different, this is just the concept to promote one of my future products. Unlike traditional, capitalism, I am not going to be so secretive about most of what I do. I'll try to make my money by being first and/or best to market, and hope to contribute a lot of open source design stuff to _the cause_.









I'll chamfer these, weld, and blend, them next.

The front brake is going to be _fly-by-wire_. There will be a small lever - I think I am going to use the balled end of the clutch lever there - but it will be obviously too small, and also obviously not directly connected to the brakes. It will control a pot that will direct a stepper motor to apply the appropriate amount of pressure to the master cylinder; which will be mounted on the chassis somewhere. I want a stepper controlling the rear drum brake too, eventually, and ultimately with the ability to electronically control the bias, so that the front brake lever is the only brake control. Initially I might use this simple control method, but will move up to something like an Arduino.


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## PStechPaul (May 1, 2012)

Seems like a cool project. But I'm not sure that it's a good idea to trust a stepper motor and controller for the brakes. Perhaps there could be a "fail-safe" mechanism that would automatically apply enough mechanical spring pressure to the brakes to stop the bike safely and also function as a parking brake if electrical power is disconnected. Then the stepper motor could release the brakes or apply extra pressure under control by the rider.

There could also be some braking by using the motor as a generator and that might supply enough electrical power to apply the brakes in the event that the batteries are depleted. Maybe a few ultracapacitors could be added to provide the surge current you want and also absorb the energy from regen, but of course some of these things may involve some expense and may not be practical. Just some ideas...


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

PStechPaul said:


> Seems like a cool project. But I'm not sure that it's a good idea to trust a stepper motor and controller for the brakes. Perhaps there could be a "fail-safe" mechanism that would automatically apply enough mechanical spring pressure to the brakes to stop the bike safely and also function as a parking brake if electrical power is disconnected. Then the stepper motor could release the brakes or apply extra pressure under control by the rider...


Thanks and I agree. There is definitely a need for a fail-safe. What I'm thinking is an actual mechanical lever, positioned discreetly so that I can find it and use it the event of a "fly-by-_failure_".  With the front master cylinder and rear drum activated centrally, in the chassis, I can also have a mechanical lever that has access to them. Not ideal, but Squat is evolving into more of a concept bike than I had anticipated.






PStechPaul said:


> ...There could also be some braking by using the motor as a generator and that might supply enough electrical power to apply the brakes in the event that the batteries are depleted. Maybe a few ultracapacitors could be added to provide the surge current you want and also absorb the energy from regen, but of course some of these things may involve some expense and may not be practical...


In the spirit of "concept", that would all be fun to experiment with - if not for the added expense part. I will put those things on the wish list, but don't really have plans to purchase a regen capable controller for it any time soon. Most of the initial fabrication will be nearly free, using leftover materials from other projects, and the power stuff mostly hand-me-down from Scrape. However, if the budget increases later... 






PStechPaul said:


> ...Just some ideas...


Thank you - I welcome them.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

More progress on the handlebars.

I chamfered and tacked the tubing together.











Then drilled and turned a bolt to make an _axle_ for the throttle grip rotate on.











Pressed that into the right side tube. The chamfers are to allow me to grind the weld flat so the grip can mate flush with the tube.










Coming along...


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

A couple more bucks towards Squat... 







 I found a *brand new* 24v Curtis PM motor controller on eBay, *that does regen!*, for $40, that is pretty much plug-n-play! It was originally designed for EV Warrior electric bicycles, and doesn't appear to need any additional contactors, diodes, etc - so Squat will be functional for pennies on the dollar; albeit very slowly so. The best part is having regen, so Paul's idea will be in play from day one.



PStechPaul said:


> ...There could also be some braking by using the motor as a generator and that might supply enough electrical power to apply the brakes in the event that the batteries are depleted. Maybe a few ultracapacitors could be added to provide the surge current you want and also absorb the energy from regen, but of course some of these things may involve some expense and may not be practical. Just some ideas...



I'm thinking that, with fly-by-wire front brakes, and regen on the rear wheel, I can make the rear drum brake an emergency/parking brake. Ideally, I would love to set it up so that it activates passively when the bike is powered down, and releases when powered up, via another linear stepper motor. I could also have a stealthy, back-up, manual-override, hand lever for real emergencies. In that Instructables article on controlling a stepper motor with a pot, one of the commenters mentioned that the same thing is possible just chaining two stepper motors together, which got my brain reeling on the possibility of using a tiny stepper in place of the pot, and having tactile, haptic-style, feedback on what's happening with the front brake. Imagine the "sales pitch" with _regen, fly-by-wire-electro-hydraulic-haptic-feedback front brakes, and a passively activated parking brake_.  The real beauty is it's all very simple (Instructables stepper control, Arduino, etc) DIY tech stuff that _could_ work like high-end consumers gadgets. My two-wheeled, Model S-style, chopper. 

This really helps kick Squat off very firmly in the concept direction, though I don't think it I will be letting too many people have their first EV experience on it, in case things go terribly wrong! 







 The beauty is that, at 24 volt top speeds (15-20mph), I can "safely" develop these systems, and move up to higher power later when the bugs and kinks are worked out, and the bruises have healed. 







​


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

I found these installation and wiring instructions for the little Curtis (here):


> *Curtis Model 1505 Speed Controller*​ *Curtis Model 1505 Pulse Width Modulation 24 Volt DC Motor Speed Controller*​
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

toddshotrods said:


> I would love to set it up so that it activates passively when the bike is powered down, and releases when powered up, via another linear stepper motor.


My concern over this would be the brake coming on in the event of a power failure while riding.

I'm personally not so keen on 'fly by wire' brakes but I have no experience of it nor knowledge of its safety, or lack of, in vehicles.
I think my main personal concerns is that with cable or hydraulic brakes it either works or it fails, and the beginnings of failure is often visible in inspections. With electrical systems the failures can be intermittent and hard to spot in inspections.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Woodsmith said:


> My concern over this would be the brake coming on in the event of a power failure while riding...


If there was an outright power failure, there wouldn't be any power for the stepper to activate the brake. Even if it had a little juice in the circuit to start activating, it's a really small drum brake. I can add a little free play into the linkage, if necessary.






Woodsmith said:


> ...I'm personally not so keen on 'fly by wire' brakes but I have no experience of it nor knowledge of its safety, or lack of, in vehicles.
> I think my main personal concerns is that with cable or hydraulic brakes it either works or it fails, and the beginnings of failure is often visible in inspections. With electrical systems the failures can be intermittent and hard to spot in inspections.


I share your concerns, but that's kind of the developing theme of this bike - to experiment with more advanced concepts. Scrape is the one I really ride, Squat is the lab rat.

On that note: I made the decision to go all the way with this concept. On the high-end choppers that use these smoothed and shaved bars, the front brake lever is eliminated. You brake by rotating the right grip forward. Seems a little unorthodox, if not completely awkward, so I initially rejected this idea in favor of a more conventional, albeit tiny, two-finger, lever. I'm going with the forward-rotation brakes. Conceptually, it's just irresistible. 

I am also going to experiment with eliminating the hydraulics completely. I'm going to rig up a device to measure the force the front caliper applies to the back of the pad, see if I can find a small linear stepper motor that can provide the correct amount, gut/machine/modify the caliper to accept the stepper motor which will push directly on the outside pad as the hydraulic piston does now. Of course, I will go overboard on adapting it, and make it really obvious that something is a bit Borg-like down there. 

If it works, I will have full electronic braking, hopefully with haptic-style feedback; eventually. The bike, will have one, almost hidden, active control interface - the right grip. Tell me that ain't some true _Todd_ stuff!  This is a playful design swipe at the fact that I thought I would hate an electric motorcycle, because there would be nothing to do (with the left hand and foot) - so I am eliminating everything but that right hand and trying to really emphasize the fact that it's this, silent, super-efficient, 21st century technology literally in the palm of your hand...



Meanwhile, in the shop:
I turned a nut down to create a threaded insert (that will be welded into the bars), and removed the head from the bolt to create the core for the left side grip. It simply screws onto the bars.










And, notched and cut a couple pieces of tubing to create the risers.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

My obsession with antique clock domes returns.  This time, however, it's not a pie-in-the-sky idea, a possibility, or a mock-up - it's a plan in motion! 

The little controller is actually supposed to be here tomorrow, and I found (and purchased) a small, used, acrylic dome on eBay today. I have a heat sink saved in my Watch List, and will pick up whatever supplies I don't have to make it soon. What makes this one a quickly achievable goal is the size of the components and experimental nature of the beast (Squat). The dome cost a tenth of what the other ones cost, probably even less for the heat sink, and there won't be massive amounts of heat to worry about, so cooling isn't such an issue.

For that I also purchased a clear plastic, 120mm, computer case fan, with blue LEDs!  To make this a reality, all I really need is a chunk of thicker acrylic to cut the base plate from, some screws, nuts, bolts, and to fabricate some kind of mount.









On the subject of the cooling fan. The idea is to have it blow into the bottom of the housing, of course, and out through the heat sink. In addition to the area on the ends of the fins that is inside the housing, I plan to mill between the fins on at least part of the sink that isn't connected to anything - it bolts to the heat sink on the 1505 controller; the little aluminum block.

Wait 'til you see how it will be incorporated into the bike!


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

The Curtis 1505 was actually here yesterday but, for some reason, the mailman (USPS) arrived here at 8:41am, instead of his normal 10:30-11am, so I missed him. It comes back, along with the dome, Scrape's motor, and a couple other odds and ends tomorrow.

In the meantime, I have _still_ been screwing with these handlebars!  My design projects usually have one or two key items that set the creative foundation for the entire project, so it's critical to get that right. With Squat it's the handlebars. They are what ushered in the integrated, passive, tech theme.

These are the individual pieces for the risers.










Then welded. I MIG'd the washers to the mounting studs, and tacked the tube sections to the washers with the TIG. I'll probably TIG weld those to cut down on the grinding.










On the bike.










A couple beauty shots. First a silhouette, in front of the welding area dock door, and then a knee-high-to-an-ant shot with the welding curtains in the background.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

In all the hubbub over Scrape's motor, I am just getting around to posting pics of what I have been drooling over since Monday morning - Squat's _flux capacitor drive_!!!  The little 1505 and acrylic dome have been in my office since then, fueling my creativity. The fan is on the way (from China), and I expect to purchase a chunk of acrylic to machine the base from soon. Naturally, I have some crazy, crazy, ideas brewing... 










































Think this thing could be hacked to run at 48 volts?


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## PStechPaul (May 1, 2012)

I could not find a schematic and I couldn't even find this controller model on the Curtis website. They all seem to be 1200 series. What I found was this:
http://www.cfnet.net/tm/1505.htm
http://cafeelectric.com/curtis/Curtis_manual.pdf (1200 series)

There is a PDF site that supposedly has a schematic, but I've found that they ask you to join some sort of gaming or file sharing network, and I'm not "game" for that:
http://www.imarkswebs.com/bk/curtis+24v+controller+diagram/

The following thread shows a rough schematic and mentions using the smaller controller with higher power MOSFETs:
http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forum...ontroller-design-sg3524-and-tc4420-13763.html

And this search brings up some threads that might be helpful:
http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/forumdisplay.php/controllers-36p44.html

If you can trace out some of the circuit and identify the MOSFETs and power components such as the large capacitors, it might be possible to rework it for 48V.

It appears that there is one unusual IC on the board, a SGPMC-98500, which is some sort of PMOS DC motor controller:
http://www.seekchip.com/icstock-S/SGPMC-98500.html


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

PStechPaul said:


> I could not find a schematic and I couldn't even find this controller model on the Curtis website. They all seem to be 1200 series. What I found was this:
> http://www.cfnet.net/tm/1505.htm
> http://cafeelectric.com/curtis/Curtis_manual.pdf (1200 series)
> 
> ...


Hmm, you're giving me hope!  I glanced, but can't let myself dig into those links yet - I'm soooo far behind this week. This page is bookmarked for future tinkering reference - thanks Paul! 

I just wanted to know if someone with more electronics knowledge and experience thought it was even possible...


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

A couple developments:

*One*, a potential new volunteer visited the community workshop yesterday, and expressed interest in helping with the vehicles. He is an automation engineer, who is also an EE, and expressed interest in helping with some of the electronic/electrical stuff. If you've been following any of my threads, you'll know that I haven't had the best luck in attracting and keeping electronic types, so I am _cautiously_ optimistic. I am going to start with some of the ideas I have for Squat, and if he's still around progress to DIY controllers, rewinding motors, etc... 

*Two*, I had to let the theme gel a little, but have been looking for a direction for final finishing on Squat. It's kind of important to figure out on scratch-built/nearly-scratch-built vehicles, because materials and component choices have to be inline with what the final goal is. The retro-futuristic theme, like I was pursuing with PackRat, wins out here again; with a bit more bias towards the future.


For some reason, I am really into the blue LED lighting thing. The fan was chosen, in part, because it has them incorporated in it, and the eery sci-fi glow in the clear plastic is exactly what I see in my head for this bike.
I want stuff to light and glow all over it - but done as tastefully as possible. So, I'll probably concentrate on illuminating things that make power or provide an interface.
I had been planning traditional chopper/hot rod stuff for the seat and grips, but now am thinking about using them for the blue glow. I might try cutting my seat from the blue acrylic I have and making the TPD logo an insert piece with LEDs, so it end lights all the engraving, and the edges. So, if it works properly, the shiny blue plastic seat will display an outline and pattern when the bike is powered up.
Similarly, for the grips, I can laser etch pieces of acrylic tubing (CIF's laser has a 4th-axis rotary attachment), and end light them, so that the pattern glows when powered up. I'm trying to decide whether to use clear tubing for contrast, or matching blue.
The "flux capacitor" (controller) housing will of course have blue LEDs in the fan, and I am considering a miniature chill plate instead of the finned heat sink, with a coiled coolant line going to the chill plate - of course highlighted by blue LEDs.  I thought about some type of clear lines, and tinting the cooling fluid blue but that brings up a lot of complications (how/what type of clear tubing to heat and form, how well will it tolerate the heat, etc).
This might all sound crazy, but it is honestly the easy way out, for me. Sticking piece of acrylic in the laser and poking some LEDs in it is simple, and lightning quick, compared to fabricating and machining my normal metal parts; not to mention the acrylic and LEDs are dirt cheap, compared to what I would spend to do all this aluminum...
Finally, for now, I was originally planning on candy-metallic burnt orange or lime green paint, using the LED lighting just for highlights, but "blue" has taken over. I am now thinking about candy blue powder coating for the frame and swingarm, and probably some mixed natural and blue anodizing on the aluminum stuff, to give the whole bike that futuristic blue glow.
More to come...


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## PStechPaul (May 1, 2012)

Have you considered using RGB LEDs and a controller that can be set to produce just about any color and brightness? I think that could be way cool, and it could also be set up to change in response to speed, acceleration, or other parameter.

You may need to make sure the blue lighting does not violate laws which sometimes disallow colors that are used for emergency vehicles (assuming you want this thing to be street legal). The multicolor scheme solves this so you can use any combination and change it on the fly if needed.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

PStechPaul said:


> Have you considered using RGB LEDs and a controller that can be set to produce just about any color and brightness? I think that could be way cool, and it could also be set up to change in response to speed, acceleration, or other parameter...


Thanks for posting the videos Paul. My goals are for more subtle accents. Lighting that highlights the features of the bike, rather than becomes the attraction, hence my desire to use hidden LEDs that end-light the engraving and edges of the acrylic, and add a subtle glow.

I do want to use an Arduino controller eventually though. I want to make the lights pulsate and dim, to highlight things that are going on with the bike (power up/down, charging, nearing battery depletion, etc). I also want really passive "gauges" incorporated into the bike, so there I would probably use the color change idea. For example, a small LED or strip of LEDs that starts green and normal brightness, but goes yellow, then red, and progressively brighter - and probably flashes - to indicate SOC. It won't be as intuitive, or identifiable, as a normal gauge but then again Squat won't be used like a normal bike...






PStechPaul said:


> ...You may need to make sure the blue lighting does not violate laws which sometimes disallow colors that are used for emergency vehicles (assuming you want this thing to be street legal). The multicolor scheme solves this so you can use any combination and change it on the fly if needed...


I've noticed people riding here with all sorts of LEDs, constant on, flashing, _dancing_ to music, etc, while riding, so I guess Ohio is pretty forgiving with motorcycles.

I doubt a cop would even notice most of mine, because it's so subtle. My azz and hands will cover most of the seat and grips. The controller will have a subtle glow, as noted, that will be partly obstructed by my legs, etc, etc...



On this note: I had some new thoughts on the controller chill plate/fluid idea. Fiberglass sleeve supposedly goes transparent with epoxy resin. I should be able to print the core in ABS, slip the sleeve over the plastic coil, wet-out, heat shrink tubing, cure, remove heat shrink, dissolve ABS in acetone, and have a clear coiled flow tube... 

I need to get some glycol, find a dye that will work, and something liquid that will not mix with the glycol and form little bubbles in the fluid, so it can be seen flowing through the tube (think lava lamp).  Again, very subtle, but it serves a purpose in showing how the cooling system works. Wait'll you see my _radiator_.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

After I cut Scrape's new motor mount, I still had lot of computer numerically coded ambition in me, so I dove into Scrape's seat. This conversation had been stewing in my brain, and I had finally come to a conclusion about how I wanted to do the seat.


PStechPaul said:


> Have you considered using RGB LEDs and a controller that can be set to produce just about any color and brightness? I think that could be way cool, and it could also be set up to change in response to speed, acceleration, or other parameter...





toddshotrods said:


> Thanks for posting the videos Paul. My goals are for more subtle accents. Lighting that highlights the features of the bike, rather than becomes the attraction...



I decided a full acrylic seat was too much, too gimmicky, and definitley wanted metal to be a big part of the seat. I was originally going to engrave and cut a _simple_ aluminum pan, and ended up toying with the idea of illuminated acrylic, so the two ideas ultimately merged into filling the acrylic with an aluminum insert on the surface, so that the lighting serves more as an accent. So, I cut them.











They fit together perfectly, like this.











When it's lit from behind with LEDs, the effect will be like this, but better (shop light is obviously much too bright).










And at night.










I am going to hand finish the shape of the lightning bolt, and radius its edges, roll the whole piece, and then figure out what kind of surface finish or plating I want on the aluminum. After it has been rolled, I will carefully heat and slump the acrylic to match...


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## Firehuntah (Apr 1, 2011)

That looks really great, good idea to make it like that with the lightning beam and all and the backlight.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Firehuntah said:


> That looks really great, good idea to make it like that with the lightning beam and all and the backlight.


Thank you!


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

As soon as Scrape's motor is wired up (hopefully later today) I will turn my attention back to Squat. The goal is to have both bikes running for the Columbus Mini Maker Faire, in three weeks.  That's the event I debuted Scrape at last year. This year Scrape will be faster, better, and will have a younger sibling with it.

Last week, I found a piece of 12" I.D. steel tubing at the local recycler, for $5, so I can get the chassis together. I grabbed my pencil and coffee saturated notebook this morning to think through what I want to do, and found the opportunity to get really creative. I, obviously, also had a little fun with it in Photoshop...









So, if you're not fluent in chicken scratch, here's what you're looking at. After I weld the 12" tube in to create the battery box, and now main frame section, I will splice a piece of square steel tubing into the old frame, just behind the neck, running down to the battery box. Then, I'll cut the old frame completely out, and sculpture the new "backbone" and seat mount with fabricated steel sheet metal. Somewhere in that process, I also have to create the matching sculptured brace on the bottom of the swingarm. For around twenty-five bucks, and a few hours of labor, I will have an organic EV display piece/modern chopper; instead of an old Honda. Of course, that's my coveted clock-domed, _flux capacitor drive_ in place of the fuel tank.



My new electronics guy had a great idea for the battery box. I had been planning to put smoke-tinted acrylic or polycarbonate "windows" on it, so people could see the batteries. His point is valid, that even with the best batteries they're still kind of visually boring, to the average Joe. He suggested this:


http://www.instructables.com/id/Make-An-Infinity-Mirror/
http://makezine.com/2013/05/08/pitches-with-prototypes-lumiglass-infinity-by-prototank/
 
I said - absolutely! Imagine the Bat-T logo in the center and perimeter LEDs disappearing into _space_. To complicate things, I want to do an Arduino controller that will make the perimeter LED lights spin forward when throttle is applied and backwards when in regen - to actively show energy leaving and returning to the pack.

Sparks fly this week...


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## tylerwatts (Feb 9, 2012)

Wow that's a nice frame design Todd. Will look great with the controller and battery box tying it together!


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Thanks Tyler!

Making a few corrections and additions to that last post in a sec here - I was in a hurry and seem to have made a couple minor errors and forgot a point or two...


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

toddshotrods said:


> My new electronics guy had a great idea for the battery box. I had been planning to put smoke-tinted acrylic or polycarbonate "windows" on it, so people could see the batteries. His point is valid, that even with the best batteries they're still kind of visually boring, to the average Joe. He suggested this:
> 
> 
> http://www.instructables.com/id/Make-An-Infinity-Mirror/
> ...


I really like that idea, very showy and absolutely idea for what you are doing.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Woodsmith said:


> I really like that idea, very showy and absolutely idea for what you are doing.


Thanks Woody!  I actually didn't take to the idea when he mentioned it, but asked him to send links/info, and loved it when I saw it.

I think I am going to start on this frame today. I want to do this, and need to get the motor installed. Three weeks to make it run...


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Not sure my chicken scratch frame design is going to happen. Many great ideas are worthy of consideration, not all of them are feasible to actually pursue.  I welded the big 12" battery box tube, and the original front down tube I had planned and already underway, into the frame. That was the original plan, and it looks pretty darn good as it is. When I weigh finishing up what I have here and moving on to actually making it run - against cutting and grinding, and cutting and grinding, and cutting and grinding, to make that little sketch a reality... 

I'm thinking that a hybrid of the two ideas might be the best route. Keeping the existing frame, but lopping off the rear section and floating the seat on a sculptured, organic, pedestal; sort of like the sketch.

Pics later...


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

So here's today's progress, and the original bobbed Honda frame plan. Battery box section of the frame, and front down tube, welded in. I still need to finish welding the two-piece front down tube together and blend it, but it's fully welded to the frame and battery box. It could have been a one piece tube, but I had those two bends laying around...










Tomorrow, I will probably fit and weld the motor mount. Then I just need to pull the rear wheel off and make the sprocket adapter and it will be ready to wire up and run.


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## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

This thread and build are pretty fun!


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Thanks metro!


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

I welded the motor mount on today, and reverse engineered the original sprocket mounting pattern and center hole, and the new sprocket mounting pattern, then cut a test adapter in acrylic on the laser - fits perfect first crack. Pics of all that soon...

In the meantime, I have been working on the flux capacitor drive. I modeled the base that mounts the fan and "thrusters".  I need to stare at this and make a decision really quick, because if I'm going forward with it I need to get the acrylic block here soon. The fan is trimmed of its mounting flange on one side, and mounted to the base plate. The blue section is an acrylic flange bonded to the dome, that mounts the dome to the base plate. Finally the aluminum thrusters mount to the back of the base plate to release the hot air.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Almost there. The sprocket adapter is cut and works perfectly. Honda used a pin drive setup on the little 400, which is pretty cool, except for the fact that the sprocket is held in place, laterally, by a single external retaining ring. It's a beefy one, but I am glad it's on my low-power machine...

The pins needed these pockets in the adapter to self lock, as the nuts are tightened on the other side. A more elegant solution, Honda engineers, would have been a single piece with four pins; but I accepted the challenge to get my reverse engineering, of their overly-engineered solution, right and make the individual pins work - nailed it. 










The pins fit in these drive bushings, which engage with the rubber drive cushions, hidden behind the steel shims, and there's another miscellaneous plastic piece that caps it all off before the sprocket carrier goes on - lots of extra little pieces... I also need new rubber drive cushions - there's a bit of slop.










I had to cut a bushing, the small aluminum _washer_ in the center, for the retaining ring to work with my new setup. Luckily it was exactly .250", so I just machined the internal and external diameters. It would have been a nice little lathe project except for the fact that the cross-feed ball screw of our lathe is out for repairs, and it needed small clearances cut for the nuts. I didn't catch those until it was off the CNC, and ended up manually milling them (a bit too large). I will eventually machine this piece again, probably from stainless. I also bought bolts that are a little too short - will replace them soon, and use locking nuts.










Then, just as I thought I was ready to put 12 volts to the wheel and see it spin under electric power for the first time - I discovered that the chain is toast!  At first, I thought the guy was wrong about the sprocket being for a 530 chain, but remembered checking that as soon as it came in. I noticed the chain would fit perfect in places, but not conform on the bottom, unless I forced it. It was almost 2am, at this point, and took me a while to realize it was literally contracting and expanding lengthwise!!! The plates are worn so bad, you can literally move some of the links around a sixteenth of an inch on the pins!!!!!  There's no way I'm running this on my aluminum sprocket, plus I need to cut a little chain clearance in the swingarm, so the day (night) was over. So close... 











I really like how this bike is turning out. It has a bit of old school, American cruiser/chopper, mechanical feel, that will be blatantly counterbalanced with the futuristic, fantasy, drive systems. It's exactly what I was after with PackRat, times 100.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

It lives! I just took the first ride around the shop on Squat!!!  Just like Scrape before it, I was using a single 12v battery (one of Scrape's scooter batteries), this time just touching the wire on the terminal with one hand (can't find my starter button), hanging on with the other, feet flailing.  I even let one (motorcycle riding) member of the community workshop take it for a little spin.

I am surprised it's as "fast" as it is, with the steep gearing (5.8:1). That, combined with the utter lack of weight, means it definitely feels snappier than Scrape _off the line_. Not quick, or anywhere near startling, just peppier. The "top speed" was still decent - everyone who watched was surprised, again, that it was as fast as it was with one small 12 volt battery. I think it's going to be a nice little urban cruiser with 24 volts. 

I also have no brakes!  I was literally using the Flintstones method to stop.  I think regen is going to work really nice, and the electric front brakes will be mainly for balance, and to come to/hold a complete stop. That's backwards from how you're supposed to stop on a motorycle, but hey my first mini bike did 35mph, and _only_ had a drum brake on the rear wheel. 

Video when I can get someone to shoot it. I made my goal of having it functional for the EV & Hybrid Meetup tomorrow, and have two weeks to make it as nice as possible for the Mini Maker Faire...


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

Well done on the first ride milestone!

That big cylindrical battery box keeps making me think it will be a short 12" motor sitting in the frame.....


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Woodsmith said:


> Well done on the first ride milestone!...


Thanks Woody!  This little bike is a blast! I can't wait to get the controller wired up, with the little AGM pack next week.






Woodsmith said:


> ...That big cylindrical battery box keeps making me think it will be a short 12" motor sitting in the frame.....


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

My acrylic plate arrived today, and I wrapped up the revisions to the housing base - so it's time to cut!  I didn't like the square base sticking out under the dome. It was only there to accommodate the factory mounting holes and flange of the computer fan. Then, I remembered that I don't normally do "factory".  We tested bonding a piece of the fan housing to a piece of acrylic and, when that was successful, I was free to play. The fan will be trimmed down, and bonded to a new mounting flange (the blue ring), allowing me to make a round, organic, base that flows off the bottom of the dome.










Here's the acrylic block, with the little bonding test piece, and the new, laser-cut, mounting flange for the fan.











The blue base is just for effect. It's a small color highlight in the maze of clear acrylic. It's parallel with the fan's, four, blue, LEDs so they'll end light it and enhance the blue glow - I hope...


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## madmike8 (Jun 16, 2011)

Is there a inlet and an outlet for the air to flow?


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

madmike8 said:


> Is there a inlet and an outlet for the air to flow?


The outlets are the three velocity stacks. The inlet will be cut into the side wall of the dome and be hidden in/a part of the mount.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

I finally have the base plate's CAD model ready for CNC time. After trimming the fan down to fit in the new acrylic mounting flange, I had to re-size, and re-cut, the flange a couple times to get that right, and then re-model the whole top half of the model to suit.  I won't actually bond the fan into the mount until the base plate is cut and I know it fits. Then, I will cut an LDPE fixture to make sure it stays aligned until cured.










Under the dome (cheesy TV show pun intended), it's just a subtle highlight, to break up all the clear acrylic, that should also intensify the blue glow a bit.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

I have been busy getting Scrape back together, but work never ceased on Squat - I just haven't had time to post the pics. First up, I wasn't happy with the seat, so I decided to cut it from .250" aluminum plate, with acrylic inlays. After parts were cut and fit together, I hammerformed the aluminum pan, and then used a heat gun to carefully and slowly bend the acrylic to fit. Bend a little, grind a little on the aluminum, bend a little more, until the Bat-T logo and lightning bolt just slipped into the pockets. The lightning bolt fits better than that - it's hanging down a little because there's nothing clamping it in yet.



















The "teeth" were created by engraving the fringe pattern around the perimeter, and then boring down the edge of each one with a .125" end mill. 253 slashes, and 253 holes. The .125" end mill later snapped off cutting a pocket in the soft acrylic - the former stress had taken its toll. RIP little end mill. 









It's a bit sharp on the edges, and needs de-burring, but this isn't a little pansy-azz bike - you gotta be hardcore to ride it (at 20mph). It's my backside scratcher.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

The dome base has also been cut for quite a while now, waiting for me to finish playing with Scrape. I fixtured it on the ShopBot, using a piece of scrap wood and drywall screws. The holes are a tight fit for the screws, and the pattern is for flipping it for side two.










I counterbored the holes, because to get that software to machine just the center section, I had to block out the rest of the part (that I didn't want it to touch), and wait for it to mindlessly skim over the top of the plate, thinking it was machining the entire block from a larger piece.











First side roughed in.










And finish machined - perfect.








I forgot to take pics of the final product on this side. I used 2D machining to cut the flanges and surfaces for the fan and dome mounts.



Second side roughed in.












It was after 3am, at that point, so I started the second side finishing operation, and went back to the office to doze off for a couple hours, feeling confident that the perfection would continue. I came back and found this!  I almost stopped the machine to throw it away, in frustration, and clean up my mess, but let it go. I'm glad I did.








Obviously, I have found the limits of the ShopBot's ability for precision.  Notice one of the three sections is okay, with just a small hole, but two are utterly destroyed? That's a machine that can't quite deal with the level of precision being requested.



All of the critical surfaces I need are perfect, so I am going to fix this one, instead of enduring hours of machining it again (with the same possibility of failure or changing my design to suit the machine). Today, I will cut pieces and bond them in, then hand finish them tomorrow. I left it screwed to the wood fixture piece to keep it from twisting until I get the filler pieces bonded in.


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## madmike8 (Jun 16, 2011)

Doh!

Todd, I do like your attitude... No sense crying over spilled milk... Fix it and move on...


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## PStechPaul (May 1, 2012)

Your CNC machine gave you lemons, so you made lemonade! I watches some CNC fail videos yesterday and there were some spectacular crashes. Your projects are looking good!


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

madmike8 said:


> Doh!
> 
> Todd, I do like your attitude... No sense crying over spilled milk... Fix it and move on...





PStechPaul said:


> Your CNC machine gave you lemons, so you made lemonade!... Your projects are looking good!


Thanks guys - that's all I can do in the end. Plus, the surfaces I really needed, that I didn't want to do manually, are where the fan, dome, and stacks, mount - those are all absolutely perfect. The ones it screwed up are mainly supporting cast. They do help channel the air into the stacks, but it's not like I had hundreds of hours in CFD optimizing that flow...  The real cooling is going to be via liquid, so this is all just ventilation for the enclosure. I could really have mounted the fan and stacks to a flat plate - but that wouldn't be _me_! 






PStechPaul said:


> ...I watches some CNC fail videos yesterday and there were some spectacular crashes...


I've had quite a few myself. Taking off on some random path, burying my favorite, .250", four-flute, ball end, finishing end mill into a previously perfect aluminum part (that had a ton of hours in it at that point), until it snapped the end mill in two, being one of the most frustrating. All I did was hit start - on the exact program/toolpath I had already run! I had nudged the machine maybe 0.0625", checked and rechecked the coordinates, just to get it to do a little fine-tuning/clean-up. I guess it thought I asked for .625... 



I cut the pieces and bonded them in. Tomorrow I'll begin shaping (and probably filling again, and shaping, and filling again....)


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

With the pieces bonded in, I was able to finally pull the base of the fixture board, and the damage is actually worse than I thought - thanks ShopBot.  Anyway, I can fix it. I am developing new love and respect for acrylic. The ability to machine or laser cut, and the fact that it is bonded with a solvent, means I have a lot of creative freedom. The solvent bonding thing means it's just like working with metal. I'm actually melting and fusing material together.

The two clear spaces are actually the new pieces fused into the base. I'll spend some time hand shaping those today, and fitting the fan. The ShopBot also chewed up the mounting flange for the dome, in places, so I am going to cut a new flange, from thinner material, bond it, and blend it in.

As bad as it looks, this is actually promising.











I also have new thoughts on the, fly-by-wire, front brakes. I was planning to have a small pot or stepper motor in the handlebars to control them. Under that plan, I would have had to roll the throttle grip forward to activate the front brakes. My new idea is to just have an Arduino and/or Raspberry Pi read the amount of regen from the front brakes and apply a certain amount of matching front braking. This level can be set and adjusted in the software.

My two thoughts on maintaining pressure on a grade, or for making sure the bike comes to a complete stop are either to have it programmed so that the front brakes are applied anytime the bike is powered up and throttle isn't be applied, or have a hidden momentary switch in the bars or grip to allow manual activation. Programming would be necessary to make sure the front brakes couldn't be locked up in motion.  Also, if the front brakes are completely computer-controlled, a button would probably also be needed to deactivate the front brake, so the bike could be pushed around.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

It took a monumental effort, but I did manage to exhibit Squat at the Mini Maker Faire. The best part is I actually got to sleep for four hours Saturday night...

My number one goal was to make it look as much like what's in my head as possible - close enough on that one. Number two goal was to make it run like a normal bike - didn't hit that one, it was still working off a single 12v battery and the starter switch, but it didn't matter because I didn't get to ride it after one short trip from the truck to the exhibit space; before the event. Kate, one of the artist tenants at CIF, rode (coasted) it back to the truck. I hope someone took pics of that. 

I have a request out for pics and video of the bikes at the event, but no replies yet. The resident photog/video guy shot my official ride on Scrape, and Alex (CIF owner) shot a, longer, rip aboard Scrape, near the end, but Squat held down the exhibit space all day. I forgot to take pics... 

In the meantime, here are a few pics of what we accomplished. The "we" is because I solicited help, realizing that I wasn't going to get it all done, by my lonesome.

I posted a request for someone who wanted to have some fun on the metal lathe to make the grip ends, and Gary a retired (I think) Ph.D. engineer stepped up and completely knocked this one out of the park.










This pic does these aluminum inserts no justice at all. The packing tape is there to make sure they didn't fall and get scratched, as they're not permanently installed yet. They are beautiful.











While Gary and Curt were working on the grips and seat, I resumed work on the flux capacitor drive. I didn't have time to actually mount the little Curtis, and the stacks need more work to fit properly, but it served the purpose, really well. I can't count how many times I was asked, and explained, what it was - perfect.  I had also cut the battery box covers, Thursday or Friday, and got them installed Friday. Finally, one of the CIF volunteers, Nic, worked on the dome base. He carefully clearanced the fan base to fit on the controller base, and also made the initial bends in the aluminum dome mounts. I hammered the dome mounts, and finished the base late Saturday night.












Curt volunteered and spent most of the day and evening in the shop Saturday getting the seat together. Just before he arrived, I cut the seat mount pieces on the CNC router, and he finished them up and got the seat assembled. Beautiful work. I actually pulled the seat off a few times to show people and brag about his work. I did the front pivot on the manual mill. It still needs to be profiled to match the contour of the seat, but works perfectly. This seat also needs a stronger spring (bottoms out instantly) and lighting. 











Here she is.


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## PStechPaul (May 1, 2012)

Hah! Cool-looking bike. The location of the thruster vents gives new meaning to the term "crotch rocket". 

I appreciate good machine shop work more now that I have done some things on my lathe and milling machine. It would be nice to have a three-axis CNC machine... But a friend where I work built one and maybe he can use it for some things I might dream up.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

PStechPaul said:


> Hah! Cool-looking bike...


Thanks Paul! 






PStechPaul said:


> ...The location of the thruster vents gives new meaning to the term "crotch rocket". ...


Priceless!  I will be quoting you on that one! 






PStechPaul said:


> ...I appreciate good machine shop work more now that I have done some things on my lathe and milling machine. It would be nice to have a three-axis CNC machine... But a friend where I work built one and maybe he can use it for some things I might dream up.


CAD/CNC is a blast.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Ultimately, we're working on an Arduino or Raspberry Pi based controller for the throttle and braking system, but I need to get Squat running, normally, in the meantime. Will, my new electronics guy found this pot, which will tuck into the right grip very nicely, and is rated for 5 MILLION cycles! 

The controller will read half the travel, from 5-10K, and translate it into a 0-5K signal for the motor controller; and then the other half, from 5-0K, and translate that into whatever the stepper motor needs for braking - so roll throttle back like normal to go, and forward to brake - one pot. The spring and center detent will be physical.

I found a cheap pot (50K cycle life compared to 5 million) for ~$10, almost physically identical to the ETI Systems pot. I'm looking for sanity checks/holes in my theory:

Do you see any issues with using a 0-10K pot, with an adjustable mechanical limit (stop) set at 5K? The reason for 10K with a mechanical stop is to reduce the effective electrical rotation to less than a half turn, so it can be applied within the range of motion of one's wrist. Most of those pots are 300-degrees mechanical rotation, with ~270-degrees effective electrical rotation, so about 120-150-degrees on the throttle - long (for me) but reasonable. I would use it solely for throttle right now (0-5K directly to the motor controller), and swap it out for the good one later when we have the Arduino controller system ready.


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## tylerwatts (Feb 9, 2012)

Are you suggesting the pot is geared Todd? That would worry me. How else does 270deg translate to 130 at the wrist? I may not be thinking this through correctly...


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

tylerwatts said:


> Are you suggesting the pot is geared Todd? That would worry me. How else does 270deg translate to 130 at the wrist? I may not be thinking this through correctly...


I would be using a 10K pot, and only turning it halfway - hitting a mechanical stop at the point where it is delivering 5K. _ I.e._, only using 135-degrees of its available travel.

From a mechanical engineering sense, this is a no-brainer - just design a physical barrier where you want it to stop. I don't know if there are any issues with this electronically, with the pot. It is a linear pot, so half of the rotation is supposed to deliver a consistent, progressive, range from 0-5K, in theory.


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## tylerwatts (Feb 9, 2012)

Ok sounds fine. Just be aware cheapo pots say they're linear but aren't quite so as long as it is constantly increasing it is fine, ie no dips or peaks. I look forward to seeing it happen!


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

I'm trying to decide whether or not to pull the trigger on this one. It's the "radiator" for the motor controller. I had it in the plans for the Mini Maker Fair but, obviously, didn't get to it. It would be turned and machined from a piece of billet aluminum rod stock. I have the aluminum, squared up and ready to go, I just need to decide whether to make the investment of time. It would mount on top of the frame's backbone - in place of the gas tank, and blatantly in your face.

Of course, this big, relatively thick, lump of aluminum isn't really going to be an effective radiator - it's mostly eye candy, to add to the laboratory science experiment theme of the bike. The small amount of heat generated by the little Curtis would probably have long since dissipated into the atmosphere, traveling through the curvy copper tube that would feed it into the top of this contraption. There would be a fan hidden in the backbone, under the fins, blowing up to help get rid of any remaining heat. I have that fan too. The plan calls for a, curvy, coiled, clear tube to carry the chilled coolant back to the chill plate, inside the dome.

Again, just to keep from getting too rusty, I modeled this in Pro/E; even though all I really needed was to see the design, work out the dimensions, and generate guide drawings. Surface modeling would have worked. Maybe I'll get to do some CFD analysis on it someday, and see how well/horrible it works, since it's an actual solid.


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## tylerwatts (Feb 9, 2012)

Flamboyant as usual Todd. I don't see it working on the bike though, my opinion.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

tylerwatts said:


> Flamboyant as usual Todd. I don't see it working on the bike though, my opinion.


Lol. Aesthectically, functionally, or both?

Aesthectially, it's way out there, but works. I have the aluminum billet mocked up on the bike now to stare at it for a few days to a week to decide if I like it - so far, I like it. It definitely adds something to the whole, and it's just a blob of aluminum right now. I'll try to get a pic of that soon.


Functionally, it doesn't have to. As mentioned, I am pretty sure the coolant will already be mostly chilled by the time it gets there...


The new, honkin', lathe came online today so there's a little more temptation to play with something like this influencing things. It has all the bells and whistles, including a steady rest (which would make boring the main chamber much easier), and a taper which makes possible something I didn't model because it would be too much for normal manual turning - tapered fins. 

Still up in the air though...


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## tylerwatts (Feb 9, 2012)

Aesthetically the cylinder above the frame with cylinder below didn't gel for me, my opinion. Have you got the CAD model on the bike to view? What about putting it below the controller in front of the battery housing?


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

tylerwatts said:


> Aesthetically the cylinder above the frame with cylinder below didn't gel for me, my opinion. Have you got the CAD model on the bike to view?...


I don't have any pics of a mock-up on the bike yet. I keep forgetting about them. I like it on the bike, but am still undecided about the investment of time to realize it...






tylerwatts said:


> ...What about putting it below the controller in front of the battery housing?


It wouldn't fit there. I was purposely trying to put it "in your face", in place of a fuel tank...


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Work stopped on Squat because the guy I bartered with to get the Honda rolling chassis refuses to give me the title. It was his bike, that he used to ride, so I know he has it (or can get a duplicate), but all I have received from him, upon repeated requests, are lies. He moved to Boston (the reason he wanted to get rid of the bike) or I would deal with him personally about it. My suspicion is he's using the title for another Honda he purchased since he moved there.

Anyway, that means I don't want to do anymore to the frame I have, until I figure out what I am going to do about the title issue. I didn't want to do as much as I have already done to it, without paperwork, but I wanted to honor my promise to have it together for the Mini Maker Faire; so I rolled the dice on the work done to it thus far.

My options are:


Purchase the same kind of frame with a clean title, and swap everything to that frame.
Find whatever kind of titled frame I can, for the best deal, possible, and reconfigure/re-design, if necessary, to suit; and build Squat 2.0.
Build a new frame from scratch, and go through the scratch-built song and dance to get it registered.
Throw it away (not likely).


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

That is really frustrating and annoying.



toddshotrods said:


> My options are:
> 
> 
> Purchase the same kind of frame with a clean title, and swap everything to that frame.


Do that and then take the guy to court to recover your costs.

Also, can you report the registration/title of the bike to the authorities to track down? They could then find him using that title on a frame that is not correct.

Alternatively, option 2.


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## ken will (Dec 19, 2009)

toddshotrods said:


> He moved to Boston (the reason he wanted to get rid of the bike) or I would deal with him personally about it.


I go to Boston about once a month, maybe me and da boys should stop by and tell him you said "Hi".


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Woodsmith said:


> That is really frustrating and annoying.
> ...





ken will said:


> I go to Boston about once a month, maybe me and da boys should stop by and tell him you said "Hi".


Thanks guys and lol Ken!  I posted this same basic update on my FB Page, with an extra option:



> Send Curt to take care of the problem. (kidding)


 Curt, Ken, and "da boys" ready to bring resolution. I feel like a _boss. _



He replied - with his normal drivel about being busy and that he was going to get right on it and get me the title - blah, blah, blah.


> Todd, I've been busy and haven't been able to send the title yet, but I have it (or can just go get another issued). Your last message was a bit... aggressive?
> 
> When is MMF? It sounds like you're at the point that you need to get a tag on it to get it on the road and inspected?


I replied:


> Cue the violins. MMF was last month, but I mentioned that in a request for the title far in advance; after waiting months for.
> 
> Too busy, I see.. At this point, I think I'd get more satisfaction out of starting over and giving you some suggestions on what you can do with that one.
> 
> Was that too... aggressive?


Then, I banned his azz from my Page! 

I am really past it, and think the whole situation is funny now. The (small amount of) money I have in the bike can easily be transferred to something else, if necessary, so I have nothing to lose. Worse case: we'll call that whole miserable deal a development buck for me to work out my retro, capacitor drive, concept. 







Woodsmith said:


> ...Do that and then take the guy to court to recover your costs.
> 
> Also, can you report the registration/title of the bike to the authorities to track down? They could then find him using that title on a frame that is not correct.


I thought about that just to make a point, but trying to pursue a legal issue from Ohio to Boston is prohibitively challenging (legally) and financially unfeasible.

As for him using it on another bike, that's just my theory to explain why he wouldn't just cough up the darn title - no proof whatsoever. Police would be reluctant to even look into it because the title is still in his name, and all I have to prove my case are FB messages. That's my dumb fault for trusting him (because he was then a member of this community workshop). I'm not normally that trusting, and little, painless, lessons like this help me remember why... 

Onward and upward guys - Squat will live on!


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## tylerwatts (Feb 9, 2012)

So long Squat, long live Scream?

How difficult is it to get the bike registered on its own title Todd?


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

tylerwatts said:


> So long Squat, long live Scream?...


Lol, it's still Squat. My projects are always a concept, represented tangibly, not really the actual machine. The concept, in this case, is what it would look like if you stuffed a futuristic, "alien", drive system in an "old" bike. I can swap bikes, styles, and some components, and it would still be "Squat"... 

On that note, I have thought all along about whether or not I prefer the current bobber style or an even more retro flat-tracker style. So, if I had to move everything to a new frame, that could be an option. Same components, slightly different arrangement...






tylerwatts said:


> ...How difficult is it to get the bike registered on its own title Todd?


Not very difficult in Ohio. You have to prove (with receipts) where everything came from (that it's not stolen). I have receipts for everything but the wheels and forks, so I wouldn't be too far away from that. I've been saying it for years now, but I am seriously planning to take a ride soon, back to my old house/shop, and seeing if the neck of my first streetbike is still where I left it. I have the title (have since 1983) so I could simply build a new frame with it. I could actually even do it without that specific neck, but it would be cool to use bring it back to life - if it's there.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

toddshotrods said:


> ...options...
> 
> 
> Purchase the same kind of frame with a clean title, and swap everything to that frame.
> ...


A combination of options 2 & 3 played out in a chicken scratch, using the neck and title from some existing bike to avoid the specialty registration process. My inspiration was the old flat-tracker bikes, but I wasn't actually trying to capture or recreate one - just thinking of that style of bike, and morphing the current reality towards that thought. The battery box section of the frame becomes the cornerstone, the foundation, the centerpiece. The front suspension is rocker arm or girder. The front number plate would probably be machined CAD/CNC aluminum with my Bat T, of course. That would match the seat nicely if I made the T light. It's almost as much bicycle as it is motorcycle, but the lack of human power capability seals its identity. Same handlebars, same seat, same capacitor drive (also playing a more prominent role though). Options on the equally sized (diameter) rollers are use a bigger tire on the current 16" rear rim, or get a matching 18" rear wheel. I am curious what the 18/16" combo with equal height tires would look like so I'll eventually sketch, model, or Photoshop that...

Not _the_ plan right now, but an option.


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## tylerwatts (Feb 9, 2012)

Very interesting design Todd. Be aware of the stress requirements for the frame coming off the battery box, it will try to twist alot so the end covers will need good location and stiffness.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

tylerwatts said:


> Very interesting design Todd. Be aware of the stress requirements for the frame coming off the battery box, it will try to twist alot so the end covers will need good location and stiffness.


All covered, but I think you underestimate that "box". Anyway, all allotted for in the design - if I even go this way (just a design exercise at this point) - and the covers are purely cosmetic. The structural elements are less obvious.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Random bright idea for the day. Since Squat is supposed to be a more extreme technological concept bike (hence the slow, safe, speed targets), as I worked on the sketch today I started mentally toying with the idea of AWD, and total regenerative braking.

The Curtis 1505 was designed to drive one or two PM motors, and there are two pairs of motor output terminals. I think I can mount a treadmill motor vertically on a custom bracket that bolts to the factory brake caliper bolts. It would drive a ring gear, via a pinion gear, via the motor shaft. I have the ring and pinion gears from the Toyota diff I dissected for Schism's chain-drive front diff. The ring gear would, of course, bolt to the wheel, in place of the front disc.

So, braking would be totally by regen initially. I have always planned to keep the rear drum brake as a parking/emergency brake, so it could also be programmed to phase in gradually to bring the bike to a complete stop and hold it on grades. I suppose it would be necessary, or wise, to never charge the pack to 100%, to allow a little initial room for regen.

The biggest issue I see right now is gearing (with the ring and pinion drive), because there would be different front and rear ratios. I would need to add another ratio between the pinion gear and the motor shaft, to match the rear ratio (5.8:1). It would be interesting to see if the two different size motors work well together. In theory the larger motor would provide enough torque that the smaller motor wouldn't be doing a lot of work - similar to accelerating downhill, from its perspective. So, a favorable rearward torque bias. Another issue is the ring and pininon would be exposed and require regular cleaning and inspection.

The Curtis also has provision to adding a normally-open ground switch that will kill the controller, which could be used to allow coasting - kind of like a clutch button.

Wonder what else I can dream up?


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Still just a design concept, but its merit is increasing. I incorporated the AWD concept, with a new front suspension. It's basically a swingarm with a motorcycle neck on the end. The original fork sliders are cut down and welded to a plate, with the neck stem, creating a bicycle style front fork. The big advantage here is I can continue develop of the bike and easily graft in a clean titled neck when convenient (the increasing merit aspect). The current bars would get a socket incorporated to slip over a corresponding hex pattern on the shaft. As mentioned, in the previous post, the Toyota ring gear replaces the front brake rotor, and a small PM (probably treadmill) motor is mounted via the caliper mounts.









I have leaf springs front and rear in this drawing but, as it is shown, there is no damping so that could be a bouncy ride. Maybe antique car style friction dampers could be incorporated, using modern materials for better damping - know where can I get some of GM's magnetorheological wonder fluid?  Finally, the headlight is from Scrape, and is mounted "side-saddle", kind of lantern style, to keep it low.


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## ken will (Dec 19, 2009)

toddshotrods said:


> Finally, the headlight is mounted "side-saddle", kind of lantern style, to keep it low.


That is a great idea!!

I am going to have to steal that idea.


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## tylerwatts (Feb 9, 2012)

Todd can you use rotating cylinder type dancers like classic minis or old cars use? The damper could sit alongside or above/below the leafs. Would give a good retro look also.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

ken will said:


> That is a great idea!!
> 
> I am going to have to steal that idea.


 Glad I could help!  Just share so we can compare notes on how we executed it. 






tylerwatts said:


> Todd can you use rotating cylinder type dancers like classic minis or old cars use? The damper could sit alongside or above/below the leafs. Would give a good retro look also.


Sounds like the right idea. I'll have to do some research on them to see how they work. Thanks.


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

tylerwatts said:


> Todd can you use rotating cylinder type dancers like classic minis or old cars use? The damper could sit alongside or above/below the leafs. Would give a good retro look also.


Classic minis used telescopic dampers - 
you are thinking of either
Lever arm dampers - used before minis
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lever_arm_shock_absorber
Or friction dampers, - used before lever arm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Friction_disk_shock_absorber


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Friction dampers are what I was thinking, but maybe a higher tech damper that looks like one. These are available, off the shelf, for a price:

http://speedwaymotors.com/Offenhauser-Nostalgia-Friction-Shocks,24951.html

http://speedwaymotors.com/Speedway-Friction-Shocks,3799.html


Or cheapo and originals from eBay.


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

toddshotrods said:


> Friction dampers are what I was thinking, but maybe a higher tech damper that looks like one.


I know its the looks you are after but friction dampers are a really bad idea,
Hydraulic dampers (even lever dampers) apply a load related to the speed of motion
Friction dampers apply a constant load - this is not a good idea


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Duncan said:


> I know its the looks you are after but friction dampers are a really bad idea,
> Hydraulic dampers (even lever dampers) apply a load related to the speed of motion
> Friction dampers apply a constant load - this is not a good idea


Agreed, which is why I said:


toddshotrods said:


> ...maybe a higher tech damper that _looks_ like one...


I was thinking: Cut up a factory shock, measure the capacity of the reservoirs, and size of the piston and passages, and try to recreate it in a rotary arrangement, that _looks_ like a friction damper.

Of course, it wouldn't work as well as a properly engineered, telescopic, hydraulic damper, but Squat is a low speed concept bike. They really don't have a lot of work to do, and the experience should be worth the effort.


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## ken will (Dec 19, 2009)

toddshotrods said:


> Friction dampers are what I was thinking,


Gyro/accelerometer that feeds an Arduino that drives a pair of servos that control these as friction dampers.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

ken will said:


> Gyro/accelerometer that feeds an Arduino that drives a pair of servos that control these as friction dampers.


I don't want to _go back_ to traditional brake hardware, even if it's for a different application, but your train of thought did make me think... 

Why not explore something totally unconventional? Like kinetic (suspension) energy recovery. Maybe small regen motors in place of the friction assemblies? Programming a controller to work properly would be a hurdle, but the captured energy could be fed directly into the traction pack...


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## tylerwatts (Feb 9, 2012)

Might have to be geared, and need a clever controller to capture the energy quickly, and change its loads/damping rates to match the suspension. Would be a break through though, patent worthy!


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

tylerwatts said:


> ...Would be a break through though, patent worthy!


Public license - no one can claim/keep it, if I develop it, but everyone can enjoy and add to it...


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

I know where this started, but I am not quite sure how it ended where it did.  While working on Scrape, I have been doing mental inventory on what's in this studio, trying to get an idea what's going in the dumpster, what I should try to sell, and what's going with me (probably in storage for a while). Schism's old body was stacked on top of the foam I needed to cut Scrape's new body bump and fairing, and was logged into my mental inventory as I moved it. It resurfaced, mentally, as I was unwinding yesterday, and took a bizarre twist over the next 12-16 hours.

Despite the fact that your brain says the light hitting your retinas is a car, it's not - it's a motorcycle.  It is, in fact, Squat with an extended frame, swingarm front suspension, and Model T bodywork! I started sketching random ideas for the Model T bodywork, to see if there was any merit in keeping it, and my best guess is that somehow seeing the thumbnail of Squat's sketch when I opened SketchPro led to a this little Frankenstein beast. It started as a gas-powered (Honda 750) version, but eventually got zapped.









Beside the obvious, the seating position is ala PackRat - body in, legs out. Big 330mm tire between the luggage bag shells in back, the current 100/90 skinny up front, and tandem seating. The roof would have to just be side rails and back, for the look, with reasonable headroom. The handlebars would probably be mounted with an automotive steering wheel quick release, to make ingress/egress less of a contortionist act - after flipping the roof back.

Just having fun on (digital) paper...


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

That would be awesome 
Shades of the Quasar
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quasar_(motorcycle)


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Duncan said:


> That would be awesome
> Shades of the Quasar...


Thanks Duncan. 

A few points I forgot to mention:



As sketched, I have the motor located in my big frame hoop. I'm not really crazy about that because I like the idea of the hoop being internally lit with the Lexan side windows. An option would be to have the controller and electronics in there, and motor back up on the swingarm - which also just made me realize that I forgot the flux capacitor drive.


There will be more sketching on this one! 


That hoop is currently the battery box but, with all this real estate, it would be dumb to limit batteries to half of a cubic foot.


 The flux capacitor drive, in this case, could have a charger, or BMS, or something, and be located just behind the body, between the luggage bags - so it would look like a little rocket booster. 


The swingarm front suspenson would make incorporating AWD easier as I could use an automotive knuckle, CV joint/stub shaft, and chain drive from behind the wheel up to the hub.


Another leftover part I incorporated is the old motor mount from the Inhaler. It's the firewall. Admittedly mostly cosmetic, it would need to be machined a bit more on the backside to accept a ball. A stainless steel sphere would fit on the front swingarm, and protrude through the center opening creating the illusion of a ball and socket pivot for the swingarm. The heavy-duty, machined, aluminum "socket" and polished stainless "ball" would make it appear to be functional.


*Just to reiterate - at this point, I am just having fun with ideas, not actually changing the bike.* I do have to change the bike, eventually, do to the title issue, but haven't decided what that change will be yet. It could be as simple as swapping in a frame with a clean title, keeping the current layout as-is; or as complicated as this concept. Squat's purpose is to give me a bike to ride when I need to dig into Scrape to make it faster/better, and to play with ideas I can't do on Scrape, for safety reasons.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

So now that Scrape's performance/exhibition theme is really solidifying, I have started putting more thought into where I am going with Squat. Its number one purpose is supposed to be that of a support bike for Scrape. By having a second, running, EV bike I am not _down_ when I need to pull Scrape apart to make changes and upgrades - like i just did. Secondly, Squat is my canvas to experiment with technology and ideas that aren't suitable for a serious performance bike.

Stepping back a bit from the full-bodied concept to a smaller, easier to manage, bike; the things I like are the current battery box/frame, AWD, mostly electronic braking, alternative front suspension, side-saddle Bat-T headlight and a place to finally have my coveted 330mm rear tire. I now know for sure that I don't want that tire on Scrape, because it would inhibit the ability to just toss the bike into tight radius turns and power oversteer through them. I've seen drift bikes with 300-330 tires, but I have more than simple, sweeping drifts, in mind...

I hit the CAD workshop today, to start sorting this out.









I scaled the front drive motor down to a smaller PM motor, with chain drive, to keep the system simple. I have been curious about how two different sized motors, powered by the same controller, would behave/perform - maybe this is the place to find out. My "big" motor in back would produce more torque, so it seems like the front motor would just see less need to draw current to overcome the load? Even if they are forced to receive the same current, the bias would be decidedly rearward with the right front motor selection - I think.  Regen with the two seems interesting...


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## tylerwatts (Feb 9, 2012)

Todd, remember, resistors in series are potential deviders and resistors in parallel are current dividers. Therefore if you parallel them and have the correct matched winding for respective motor speed the bigger motor will accept a proportionally higher amount of current to the little one, and only transfer as much drive as each can feed on. Basically it should work wonderfully! There will always be a constant proportion of drive to the motors so you won't get one motor trying to overcome the other. 

I recommend a paralever type suspension for the front as the motor will be trying to twist the forks apart otherwise. Good luck, it sounds like a brilliant endeavor. 

Of course you know all this only works with DC motors...


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

tylerwatts said:


> Todd, remember, resistors in series are potential deviders and resistors in parallel are current dividers. Therefore if you parallel them and have the correct matched winding for respective motor speed the bigger motor will accept a proportionally higher amount of current to the little one, and only transfer as much drive as each can feed on. Basically it should work wonderfully! There will always be a constant proportion of drive to the motors so you won't get one motor trying to overcome the other...


Thanks Tyler.  This would be a fun little experiment.






tylerwatts said:


> ...I recommend a paralever type suspension for the front as the motor will be trying to twist the forks apart otherwise...


I am currently (mentally) toying with what I call a "rocker fork". This design, but with the drive concept from the CAD model:









The original aluminum fork sliders would be cut down and welded into pockets in a machined aluminum plate, creating a bicycle style fork. That fork would bolt to a swingarm, via a tapered roller bearing - either one massive one, or two with a motorcycle neck and steering head stem. Not the best for geometry, I know, but it's a 25mph fantasy bike!  (Yup, I'm aware of the fact the handlebars would move with the wheel!)

In my head, this design would _squat_ under acceleration, which would be an interesting sensation, as the whole bike _squats_ and shoots forward - fitting for the name, if it actually worked that way! 






tylerwatts said:


> ...Of course you know all this only works with DC motors...


Yup, the one I have is a good ol' brushed PM motor, the front will be the same, just smaller.






tylerwatts said:


> ...Good luck, it sounds like a brilliant endeavor. ..


Again, thanks!


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Posted about 30 minutes before this update:_



My head hurts (not literally). I burned a good portion of this day exploring options for Squat, and none of them really click. The original plan, to spend as little (time and money) as possible was working well, until the loser I got the frame from didn't follow through on his end of the bargain. I can do a lot of things to rectify that, but all of them are counter to the fact that this was almost a freebie. I reluctantly spent a few bucks this summer to get a few things I needed to make it run but, other than that, it has been a really low effort project. That kept my attention and resources on Scrape. Every conceivable route forward, from this deadbeat frame, does the polar opposite. 

Click to expand...







 Back to the drawing board... 

Click to expand...

_​
Actually, scratch all that ^^^. After I typed it, I went out and stuck two batteries in Squat, and rode around the shop on 24 volts, for the first time (at that voltage), still with the on/off button - and had a blast!  I forgot how much I like riding this little bike. The solution is simple - leave it alone, let it be, as it is. 

I need to graft in a neck with a clean title, and call it a day. I _might_ take that opportunity to throw a little more rake in it, and tweak the chassis setup/stance, to make it more radical, but I doubt that I'll be making any drastic changes. The cost (distraction from Scrape) is too high...

The one exception could be the 330 rear tire - someday.


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## tylerwatts (Feb 9, 2012)

Awesome! Get it licensed and use it! And bring us some vids ;-)


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

tylerwatts said:


> Awesome! Get it licensed and use it!...


Yup! I was trying to avoid the neck swap, because it starts teetering me towards a frame table (hard to resist), but I think I came up with a temporary setup, fabricating a few pieces to use on CIF's welding table, that can be used on a real motorcycle frame table later (hint). Plus, every option I came up with to keep me from indulging in a frame table, left me flying off the edge of the cliff with a crazy idea for the bike. 






tylerwatts said:


> ...And bring us some vids ;-)


Hmmm, I was totally unaware of the fact that there haven't been _any_ Squat videos!  I will work on that. 


One interesting thing about riding this bike is how maneuverable it is. With around 40-degrees of rake, resulting in a fork that wants to just flop over without proactive control, you would think it would be a pain to play with in a tight space like this community workshop. Not so - it actually turns well; because it's so narrow and the forks can actually go lock-to-lock. I rode the same pathways I was riding on Scrape and was actually surprised how well I could put it exactly where I wanted it. No power oversteer, to attempt Bat style pivots, but I didn't have to do any Austin Powers' style multi-point turns either. 



Final point: My desire to keep this extremely low-effort/cost is for now. I have plans for more exotic stuff I'd like to do on this bike, or some bike, later - I just want to focus the bulk of my attention and resources on Scrape right now. When it is much further along in its development cycle, I will start to play. One thing that stuck out to me, in all my planning to figure out where I'm going from here, and what to keep from the things I have, is how far off-track I got on my design mission, since I've been in Columbus. Nothing I am doing now - even Scrape - even scratches the surface of where I plan to go, in design. I have been dumbing down ALL of my plans to match the capbilities of this shop, and got painfully far away from my real design stuff.



*For example:*


I have a wheel design I was working on before I moved to Columbus, that I put on the shelf because getting them cut (billet aluminum) here seems next to impossible. Squat is actually a better canvas for them, than any previous vehicle, but I shelved them again (and nearly forgot how well they would work on this bike) because I can't even think about producing them right now. That means I have to kind of overdo the vehicle design to blend the wheels in.
If I was totally uninhibited, in design, I would develop a really elaborate girder to replace these forks. The longer length gives the ability to stretch the design out, and really emphasize its features. Again, if I were to attempt it with the current resources, I would end up dumbing the design down to the point that I am no longer inspired by it - so I start exploring ways to change the vehicle to emphasize the compromised design...
Get what I'm saying?


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## tylerwatts (Feb 9, 2012)

CIF is holding you back? Or being there is restraining your vision and creativity? Something along those lines. Sorry to hear that. When might that change?


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

tylerwatts said:


> CIF is holding you back? Or being there is restraining your vision and creativity? Something along those lines. Sorry to hear that...


Both, but I don't blame it on CIF, more on the culture of this city. CIF is a product of the city, flowing pretty seamlessly in it. The culture here is basically, _why do all that when something simpler would be *good enough*? _I have, literally had people say to me, "why can't you do something simple?" Or, "I wouldn't do _all that_. I would find a simpler way to do it."

My mission is to work with people, to accomplish extraordinary things. I'm not trying to prove what _I_ can do, but what _we_ can do. That is a sour endeavor when you discover that those people think the challenge is unnecessary. My biggest gripe here is they know, from the first moment, they don't want to be challenged, but won't say so, until you refuse to stop pushing, and have wasted valuable time. It's a passive-aggressive thing that I absolutely loathe. I think it's kind of like, _if I quietly refuse to move he'll eventually stop pushing_ - yeah because I will go around you to get where I'm going!  One of my hardest working interns, from last summer, eventually revealed that he basically thought it was mostly all unnecessary - when I gave him the opportunity to pick up the ball and begin pushing himself. I was dumbfounded. 

So, for CIF, the issue shows up in two ways. First, they make choices in commitments and infrastructure that follow that regional culture; and are not conducive to exploring potential. Two, they tend to shy away from (proactive interest in) anything that doesn't flow with that "easy way" mentality, because they're committed to being a part of the community and flowing with it. That is about to increase one-hundredfold when they move to the new facility, and cement their relationship with the city.






tylerwatts said:


> ...When might that change?


January 1st. My deal is up here December 31st. Earlier this year, I informed Alex, CIF's founder and director, that I wasn't planning to lease a space in the new facility next year. I was informed, not so long ago, that the lease on the unit I'm in won't be extended, so it's shutting down, completely, on the 31st. Whatever I am keeping is going into storage in the next couple weeks, and I am on to whatever lies ahead for the New Year. It will take a while for the dust to settle, and me to get my bearings, but the mission, the focus, will be, must be, pure design; unrestrained, unlimited. Back to what I came here to do...


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## tylerwatts (Feb 9, 2012)

On that note, in our UK Motorcycle news weekly was this, Todd written all over the front end! 
Pics not working again, brb

Tapatalk won't let me upload this pic! Look up the London Custom bike show. Nice examples of trellis front suspension builds. Thought they might inspire...


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

tylerwatts said:


> On that note, in our UK Motorcycle news weekly was this, Todd written all over the front end!
> Pics not working again, brb
> 
> Tapatalk won't let me upload this pic! Look up the London Custom bike show. Nice examples of trellis front suspension builds. Thought they might inspire...


 I Googled, but have no idea what I'm actually looking for - give me a description or a clue... 




Funny you should post this, because today I was sketching as I was thinking about where I am going from here. I wasn't really thinking about Squat, but I picked one of the sketches I had been working on for it because it fit my mood. It's based on the Honda CB750 frame I have here, with the thought of using it to rectify the title dilemma. I did text the guy who owns it to see if he definitely has the title, and whether or not we can deal on it, and do the paperwork this month; waiting for a reply. Whether I just cut the next out of it and swap it into the current frame, or try something like this, it would solve the problem. The idea is valid with any _clean_ frame though.

Then, as I was sketching I realized another possibility - of course!  Using the temporary fixturing idea I mentioned, I could graft the front of the 750 frame onto my hoop, and shorten the forks to create another, really radical, electric streetfighter? The sketch doesn't really show this, as it still has remnants of the rocker fork, but it would have the whole front third or so of the Honda frame grafted in.










It would take even less of a fixture because I would just link the swingarm pivots to true the 750 frame over the hoop, then start reworking tubes to tie it into the hoop. Once it was welded in solid, the rear two-thirds and the fixture would be removed and I would have a titled frame. Would just have to build the front suspension and Squat would be back and street-legal, as a converted, radically customized, Honda EV750! 

I would continue the plans for AWD, electronic braking, running at 24 volts and low-speed. If it all worked out and seemed safe, my thoughts for matching the power to the CB750's legacy later are based on using the little Curtis 1505 to control _meaty_ IGBTs - if that's possible - and stuffing the box with cylindrical cells...

The clock dome is inside a translucent plastic tank shell, modeled to resemble the original '69 CB750 gas tank. The seat uses the current weak spring to hold it at that extreme angle, at rest, but instantly drop down into something reasonable when you sit on it. Current smoothed handlebars, with integrated single, and only, control - the throttle. The pegs would be on the swingarm to keep everything clean - I don't care about the .5-1" they would move. No passenger seat - solo. She has to wait for me to go get Scrape. 

Again, just ideas right now - but this one is temptingly tasty!


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## tylerwatts (Feb 9, 2012)

Hopefully I'll be able to post it soon, but it was a custom with a girder front suspension that was basically a Harley v-rod swingarm turned vertical at the front. Was rather inspired!


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## tylerwatts (Feb 9, 2012)

Still won't allow me to post the image, but it is at least attached...


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## tylerwatts (Feb 9, 2012)

Oh, it does show. I don't know...


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

tylerwatts said:


> Still won't allow me to post the image, but it is at least attached...


Me like!  I do love the re-purposed V-rod swingarm - looks like it was made to be there - and the whole bike is beautifully thought out and executed.






tylerwatts said:


> Oh, it does show. I don't know...


When you first upload, you can't see the image, but should be able to when you hit preview. You can also copy the link, after uploading, and post it directly on the page, full-size, using the little "Insert Image" icon ^^^ above. It will be in both places.



On Squat: This whole frame thing is soooo frustrating!  The bike was basically done, just needing wiring and details, and my concentration would have been back on Scrape. Everything worked, exactly as I had planned it. It's fun to ride. It's aesthetically interesting. It cost next to nothing ($). But, it's a shop ornament, because of the title issue. That is going to force me to divert/spend time and money. Grrrr! 

I actually like the little cafe-racer/streetfighter theme above. I have been working on the sketch more - to relax and unwind my mind, not necessarily to pursue - and it's kind of killer. The problem is it would to take so much time and money away from Scrape.

Yes, I know, I am repeating myself - trying to blow off steam...


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## tylerwatts (Feb 9, 2012)

No problem Todd. Can't you request the title from the licensing department? In the UK if you buy something the previous owner has to transfer ownership and if they don't you claim ownership and request the registration be transferred. Do you have a receipt or proof of payment?


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

tylerwatts said:


> ...Can't you request the title from the licensing department? In the UK if you buy something the previous owner has to transfer ownership and if they don't you claim ownership and request the registration be transferred...


We have similar here, but the hassle isn't worth it to me. It ends at some judge's discretion, and how much of an azz the previous owner chooses to be can weigh on that. I consider that process to be more of an annoyance than physically changing the frame.


My buddy texted back today that he'll try to find the title to the 750 frame tomorrow and let me know. He's willing to deal, so that might be it. Even if he lost it, a lot of places here have the two types of BMV offices side-by-side, so he could get a duplicate in a matter of minutes, and transfer to me in a few more... I helped a couple friends do that once, and I think that we were back in the car headed home in under 30 minutes. 

If that works out it's just a matter of whether to swap the neck, or revamp to the streetfighter theme. That decision will be based on how much time and money it will cost me...






tylerwatts said:


> ...Do you have a receipt or proof of payment?


Nope. Doh!  I did what is NOT common for me, and trusted him to keep his word. Now that I see how that worked out, I'll go back to my normal, impersonal, crossed-t/dotted-i, style of doing business. Actually, most of the business I have done here in Columbus has gone like this deal with him. I was just more like me, and insured/insulated from damages in most of the other sour deals.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Scrape has been shielded from all this because I kept it to myself. I let people enjoy what I accomplish with it, but I rarely let anyone outside of my core group (mostly Curt, and now Nic) have any active involvement with it, or influence in its direction. One of the reasons things have progressed slowly over the past year, with Scrape, is I refuse to compromise what I want to do with it to fit the available resources, or match another person's needs at the expense of my own. So, what I want to do, but can't do with what I have, I wait and plan.

As I assess Squat, with future plans and the mistakes of the past in mind, the streetfighter style bike makes the most sense/has the most merit. I have a lot of ideas that were never realized, due to various external limitations, that if I make the right choices should become doable. Even more, as I toy with that streetfighter sketch, and visualize how I would realize some of the design concepts, I see "me"; and there are some new concepts lingering that are kind of fascinating. Just thinking about them exercises my creative _muscles_, and that should also benefit Scrape.

The catch, if I actually choose to do it, is it would be slow going. I would have to work in grafting the 750 frame section onto my hoop with disassembling and packing my little operation (starts today), and then have to find a lot of the resources I need to get it back together, plus a new place to actually work on the bikes. So, if I do, there may be a lot more talk and design work shown here, than actual progress. The design concepts, and CAD work, would probably be entertaining. If I can figure out the front fork in time, I might also be able to have it a least marginally functional before the month is out.

Still deciding, but leaning this way... Sorry to babble, thinking out loud, and this lets me go back and read my thoughts...


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## tylerwatts (Feb 9, 2012)

You think good sir! Love the streetfighter sketch. Keep going, you inspire us Todd. Hope one day I'm able to chase some of my dreams with the passion and determination you show us.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

tylerwatts said:


> You think good sir! Love the streetfighter sketch. Keep going, you inspire us Todd. Hope one day I'm able to chase some of my dreams with the passion and determination you show us.


Thanks Tyler, and if you insist on encouraging me... I will keep posting my madness! 

More work on the streetfighter concept. This one shows the frame section grafted in, the seat mount/rear frame section made more accurate, the correct front drive setup, and a carbon fiber mesh tank shell - I have wanted to do this mesh thing for a while, but keep getting distracted. There's also something new for the front rocker suspension - notice the circles on the legs? - but I am withholding the details for a bit. If I decide to do it, I will share openly, but I'd like a crack at being the first one to try my exact idea. If I don't, I'll eventually reveal it...











The mesh concept, from Schism's grille, for anyone who doesn't remember/never saw it:

















Just bend all that into the shape of a tank...


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## tylerwatts (Feb 9, 2012)

I loved the mesh idea Todd. And the flux drive will hide within. Cool!


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## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

The profile view says "Aggressive".

It also has a good selection of features that will allow a lot of detailing. (Instead of covering things up, you have exposed them.)

The last problem for this seems to be how to present the pack and make it blend in. It is always easy to cover things up. It is harder to make them part of the statement.

Watching with interest....Miz


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

mizlplix said:


> The profile view says "Aggressive".
> 
> It also has a good selection of features that will allow a lot of detailing. (Instead of covering things up, you have exposed them.)...
> 
> ...Watching with interest....Miz


Thanks Miz!  I love how you express and comment on what you see - please keep it comin'!  That was exactly how I what I hope people would see in it...






mizlplix said:


> ...The last problem for this seems to be how to present the pack and make it blend in. It is always easy to cover things up. It is harder to make them part of the statement...


I would have bet, and lost, money that I had shared this already. When I saw that I had not, I went to the CAD model and remembered why. Around the time I was working out my plans for the battery pack and box, my latest/greatest electronics volunteer came through with a different idea - the infinity mirror. I decided to put my idea on hold, and let him run with his... (play cricket soundtrack here)...

Back to my way. The hoop will ultimately hold 32 (of the *blue *) Headways, which gives me the ability to run a few different combinations - 8s/4p for 24v (25.6); 16s/2p for 48v (51.2); 32s/1p for 96v (102.4).









The key to the Headways, to address your (correct) statement, is in the interconnects. The battery box covers for my plan (currently on the bike) are smoked Lexan. So (with a little subtle, creative, lighting) when you look inside the box you'll see these blue, cylindrical, cells connected by sculptured metal bars, with artfully countersunk, fasteners and bus bars.

Goal: kind of like looking inside a really intricate watch. Not immediately obvious, but loaded with more and more details, the more you explore...

Bonus points: If I really wanted to go overboard on that, I would have tiny LED strips inlay-ed in each bar that would slowly pulse in the direction the energy was flowing - through the series connections and out of the box for power, and back in to each cell during regen. Then, I could take it to events and observe how long people watch it! (find the true geeks)


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

tylerwatts said:


> I loved the mesh idea Todd. And the flux drive will hide within. Cool!


Thanks Tyler - I think you're helping create/cause this madness - didn't anyone ever tell you, "don't feed the animals!" ???


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## tylerwatts (Feb 9, 2012)

Haha I'm one of the animals Todd! I've turned my simple commuter ice bike into a towering adventure bike with hyper miler tyres and brakes, it's a Frankenstein monster! 

I do want to build a leaning trike/quad with EV drive and enclosed bodywork but never have/make the time or opportunity to do so. Also want to follow Ripperton's example and build a small city commuter/runaround but same story. So your amazing adventure inspires me and let's me live through you a little until I one day can follow suit myself. I'm surfing your coat tails a bit


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## mark.ebike (Jul 21, 2013)

Just browsing through, I'm pretty new here, and I have to say the originality and fun of this build is awesome, keep it up very inspiring.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

tylerwatts said:


> Haha I'm one of the animals Todd!...







tylerwatts said:


> ...So your amazing adventure *inspires* me and let's me live through you a little until I one day can follow suit myself...





mark.ebike said:


> Just browsing through, I'm pretty new here, and I have to say the originality and fun of this build is awesome, keep it up very *inspiring*.


Thanks so much guys!  *^^^* _That_, gives me the fuel to chase the big dreams. 






tylerwatts said:


> ...I'm surfing your coat tails a bit


Careful, I have a habit of doing flips, barrel rolls, and Batman-style turns, when I see interesting things on the periphery...


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

One the subject of my obsession with the little details, this is like the antithesis of how I approach life, and vehicles, lol.  There are some individual aspects I like, but it's a lot to take as a whole; maybe too much?

http://www.gizmag.com/voxan-wattman-electric-motorcycle/30014/


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## tylerwatts (Feb 9, 2012)

Interesting bike, but the performance is wasted by the poor aerodynamics and weight.


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## tylerwatts (Feb 9, 2012)

Todd the exoskeleton is a good concept for you to consider. Use an oe headstock and swingarm and bolt them to a big block of batteries and controller and even motor all in a single housed unit combining cooling (giant heat sink of ally sides) mounting etc. The big performing EV bikes all go that way.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

tylerwatts said:


> Todd the exoskeleton is a good concept for you to consider. Use an oe headstock and swingarm and bolt them to a big block of batteries and controller and even motor all in a single housed unit combining cooling (giant heat sink of ally sides) mounting etc. The big performing EV bikes all go that way.


While there are some "exo-bikes" I like, I tend to prefer a more modular format, where components can be individually appreciated, and also upgraded more freely. But, I'm an R&D guy, not so much production oriented where things need to stay consistent long enough to provide an ROI.

Technically, the streetfighter version is a loose interpretation of this concept, as everything attaches to it. Except for the welded on front subframe structure, the rest are all basically appendages. It just has a tiny, 12" diameter, exoskeleton.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

My buddy stopped by yesterday, to discuss some other things, but I mentioned the title for the CB750 frame and feel confident enough to move forward with it, even before the title has been transferred, if necessary. I am in a full-court press to get my stuff packed up and moved out by the end of the month. I don't really have a lot of stuff to move, but am putting a lot of consideration into _what_ I move. Scrape is basically ready to go; Schism has been sorted out and should be on track; and, if possible, I'd like for Squat to roll out looking like the streetfighter in the sketches.

Today, I might pull Squat apart and see if my idea for marrying the two chassis looks as good in real life as it does in my head.  If that goes well, maybe we'll have the new chassis welded up this week... Then, the thrash would be on to get the fork together so it can roll out on its own two _paws_ at the end of the month. That's really just a psychological goal, for a sense of accomplishment and purpose moving forward, as we could always continue work on the forks in the Idea Foundry metal working areas.

I also finally, ordered a throttle pot. It's a mid-grade that was less than 20% of the cost of the one I really want. I want to test my ideas, before sinking $75 in a pot. If it works, I will eventually purchase the good one, and keep this one for a backup.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

No turning back now!


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

That still makes me think "That's a BIG kick ass motor!"


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Woodsmith said:


> That still makes me think "That's a BIG kick ass motor!"




Nic came in yesterday and did some more plasma work, then after a late dinner I went back out and hammered and shaped (with the grinder) the tubular section that's welded to the hoop to fit in the center of the webbed gusset section of the 750 frame, and tack welded it in place. Then, I took some measurements and hit the CAD shop to design a little fixture to lock the swingarm pivot points perfectly parallel to each other. I"ll cut that this afternoon, bolt it in, and start working on the new backbone. The goal is to have that all cut, fit, and welded up, cut out the rest of the original CB750 frame, and have it back on the floor with the rear swingarm, wheel, and motor, before Saturday is in the books. That will allow me to hash out the design, and us to fabricate the new front fork next week and have Squat running again. The throttle pot should also be here in time for that.

I have a tiny 2.50-18" front tire coming, which was the key to this whole thing working. To make the streetfighter theme work, as sketched, the front wheel has to be smaller than the rear, and I have an 18" front rim/16" rear. I didn't want to spend money on wheels right now, and really wanted to use these hubs to finally finish the design for my own wheels (spokes really) and machine them, someday. They're perfect for it.

So, the plan is run this nearly free combination for a while, as I sort out the design, and save up some pennies. Step two, for the wheels, will be to build a wide swingarm, weld tabs in a 17 x 12" rim to replace the current 16" rear rim, and get my coveted 330mm rear tire in the mix. I'll save the 16" rear rim, and when I finally get around to whittling out my wheel centers, it will replace the current 18" front rim, allowing me to run a 100mm sportbike front tire. Simple. 

If you read all that, you must have rolled out of the wrong side of the bed...


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

toddshotrods said:


> ... The throttle pot should also be here in time for that...


Finally got the tracking number right, and found out the throttle pot is in town and _should_ be delivered today. I'm not in the mood to stalk the guy today, so if they put it in an envelope he can get it in the mail slot, or maybe one of us will catch him. I will look for him around his normal time (good excuse to play with Scrape). Otherwise, I'll get it one of the next two attempts... I hate receiving packages here. 

Whenever I get that, I will start wiring up the 24v system and do some bench testing, with video.  This should also allow me to get the bushing for the throttle sorted out and have it ready when Squat is back on its paws.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Same dumb story with the throttle pot - no delivery, then tracking finally updates to "Notice Left", but there's no notice on the door. The only reason I let this one come USPS is I thought it would be in an envelope that could fit through the mail slot...


Back in the shop, here's the hammered and shaped tube fit into the 750 frame. It's still tack-welded on the other side. I cut this one to allow me to align the pivots.











And here's the little fixture. It's just two aluminum bars with 14mm holes machined in them, and a slotted wooden plate to make sure they don't twist. I am pulling one of my old tricks, using the 750 frame as a fixture to locate the neck on Squat's frame. By locking the swingarm pivots together, it locates the new neck perpendicular to the old pivot, at the angle I desire.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Hey Tyler, I think you provided a tip for one of Squat's key components - the rear swingarm!  That shape of that V-Rod swingarm on the front of that bike stuck in my head, and when I started thinking about how I was going to pave the way for the 330 tire, someday, I saw that in my head. Being a Harley part, I figured the price was going to be prohibitive, but you can get them for under $100 on eBay. Of course, I plan to hack it up, like this Photochop...









Of course, the rear section has been widened to accommodate the 330 tire. The front has also been narrowed to meet Squat's frame. Then, some hammered aluminum is TIG'd in and blended to create a "muscle arm". 

The most awesome fringe benefit is that, with clean bearings, a pinned (instead of nutted) pivot shaft, and the motor mounted to the arm, Squat becomes that, pull the pins, take it apart, and stick it in the back seat, bike idea I considered with Scrape!


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## dedlast (Aug 17, 2013)

toddshotrods said:


> Same dumb story with the throttle pot - no delivery, then tracking finally updates to "Notice Left", but there's no notice on the door. The only reason I let this one come USPS is I thought it would be in an envelope that could fit through the mail slot...


That place should really consider a drop box. It would sure cut down on the missed deliveries.

Bill


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

dedlast said:


> That place should really consider a drop box. It would sure cut down on the missed deliveries.
> 
> Bill


Yup. I've been saying that for a couple years now... Or, a doorbell for the guy to ring, or something... We also occupy three units of this building, with three different addresses, and the normal drivers know to deliver all to the center unit. Substitute drivers, filling in for a day or so, oftern don't know that and knock on one of the other doors; that the packages are actually addressed to. Yes, we have tenants in three units with, three different addresses, receiving mail and packages through one address - and no notices outside to make that clear. It's a mess.

Strangely, the people here don't seem to mind missing their packages?  There are little post-its from UPS and FedEx on the doors all the time where people order stuff, just assuming they might catch someone around the door when it shows up I guess, because they don't make an effort to be here to receive their own packages, even after two notices... Strange group. Almost apathetic, from my overly obsessive perspective.

My tire is coming (UPS) Tuesday, and I might rig up a motorcycle horn and 12v battery to the doorbell button (yes there's a button that has never worked ), so don't have to stalk the guy in that freezing cold shop. My office is just too toasty to leave! 

I could rant about this for days, but none of it will matter in a few short weeks - because I will be gone!


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## dedlast (Aug 17, 2013)

toddshotrods said:


> Almost apathetic,...


I was going to say maybe it was part of their "Meh" attitude to life.




> ... so don't have to stalk the guy in that freezing cold shop. My office is just too toasty to leave!


I know what you mean. My garage is about 28 degrees right now which is why I'm in my nice, warm, 70 degree office reading the forum and not out there burning calories through shivering and working on my car.

Bill

PS. I'm another one who enjoys your particular brand of madness. I always check what you're up to when I'm reading.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

dedlast said:


> I was going to say maybe it was part of their "Meh" attitude to life...


Yup. Nic is from Cinci, and has been in Columbus for a while. He basically told me in one of our last discussions that he really never realized that the attitude was, in fact, "Meh". He was just used to it, but is beginning to see that it's not good, normal, productive... He is a voracious reader and even reading about people that drive relentlessly to achieve success didn't really bring that awareness because you tend to gauge things by what's around you. It's easy to fool yourself into believing your giving your all, when every other person you see around you is _cranking hard_ at 5%.







dedlast said:


> ...I know what you mean. My garage is about 28 degrees right now which is why I'm in my nice, warm, 70 degree office reading the forum and not out there burning calories through shivering and working on my car...


Careful - that gets addictive!  The shop's thermostats are set to 60, but it normally feels like it's in the 50's out there, on cold days. If you're doing something it's bearable, but standing around waiting makes it feel like it's in the 30's.






dedlast said:


> ...PS. I'm another one who enjoys your particular brand of madness. I always check what you're up to when I'm reading.


Thank you!  Eventually, I will get myself in better circumstances and get off my... I am, admittedly, working at about 10% of my potential right now.


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## tylerwatts (Feb 9, 2012)

Todd, love the swingarm idea. Remember, Harleys probably have that 330mm wheel mod available already, though pricey. It won't be that stock looking swingarm either. If you could use 2, one on each end, that would match well! How will this front suspension work then? 

Love the jig fixture by the way. That was clever. I've learnt from you today even at 00:43 on a Sunday morning! Thank you sir. 
Night all...


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## dedlast (Aug 17, 2013)

toddshotrods said:


> Careful - that gets addictive!



No doubt! I did eventually get moving and went out to get some 3D scanning done with a Kinect sensor. As long as you're not looking for super-high resolution, it works pretty well. Good enough for a hack like me to use to start figuring out battery placement.

Bill


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

tylerwatts said:


> Todd, love the swingarm idea. Remember, Harleys probably have that 330mm wheel mod available already, though pricey. It won't be that stock looking swingarm either...


That's probably why there are so many of them on eBay, so cheap - people going big. I like that shape of the factory arm though, and want to build my own, based on it.





tylerwatts said:


> ...Love the jig fixture by the way. That was clever. I've learnt from you today even at 00:43 on a Sunday morning! Thank you sir.
> Night all...


I aim to inspire (people to madness)!  Thank _you_!






dedlast said:


> No doubt! I did eventually get moving and went out to get some 3D scanning done with a Kinect sensor. As long as you're not looking for super-high resolution, it works pretty well. Good enough for a hack like me to use to start figuring out battery placement.
> 
> Bill


I thought about building one of those, but the resolution thing discouraged me - I'd end up spending a ridiculous amount of time in CAD fixing things... 






toddshotrods said:


> ...The goal is to have that all cut, fit, and welded up, cut out the rest of the original CB750 frame, and have it back on the floor with the rear swingarm, wheel, and motor, before Saturday is in the books...


The little fella:















tylerwatts said:


> ...If you could use 2, one on each end, that would match well! How will this front suspension work then?...


More on that soon...


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## tylerwatts (Feb 9, 2012)

Check this new UK bike out Todd. Sure you have seen it in the news. Interesting. I show it for the front end design.  http://www.agilitymotors.com/bikes/saietta-r.html?872236


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## tylerwatts (Feb 9, 2012)

Love the simplicity of the frame! How thick is the wall of the cylinder? Will your end plates add any stiffness? 10mm perspex or plexiglass is pretty tough and only needs the load to transmit through the flat plane of the panels.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

tylerwatts said:


> Check this new UK bike out Todd. Sure you have seen it in the news. Interesting. I show it for the front end design.  http://www.agilitymotors.com/bikes/saietta-r.html?872236


That's the first time I've seen that one. Interesting looking bike. The front suspension is described as double wishbone, which would be a modern interpretation of a girder. I remember back in the 80s reading about all these alternative front suspensions, and having Tony Foale's book on suspensions. It seemed like the old telescopic fork was on its death bed - 30 years later, not so much... 







tylerwatts said:


> Love the simplicity of the frame!...


Thanks! 




tylerwatts said:


> ...How thick is the wall of the cylinder?...


0.250", and this size tubing is usually made from a decent alloy.




tylerwatts said:


> ...Will your end plates add any stiffness? 10mm perspex or plexiglass is pretty tough and only needs the load to transmit through the flat plane of the panels.


The polycarbonate "windows" started out as 0.375" material, but I engraved at least 0.0625" into them, for the Bat T logos.

My real plan for torsional rigidity is in the gusseting. I have always planned to have sculptured, web-like, gusseting between the appendages. So, in addition to making the neck and pivot/seat base more rigid, they should (in theory) also reinforce the hoop itself. I've also considered having rings machined to weld on the ends, that would sit the windows in a little sculptured recess, and have maybe twelve webs, each, that extend back onto the surface of the hoop. All welded in that would add quite a bit of rigidity, but it wouldn't be cheap. I would need a 28x14x2" hunk of steel and a lot of machine time to whittle it down to nothing! 

That hoop is a heavy little [email protected][email protected]&#. I weighed the old frame section (hoop with pivot/seat base, and lower front neck tube) before locking it into the CB750 frame - it was 30lbs!


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

I have wanted to build a bike with rocker front suspension since I first saw Jesse Rooke's bikes, many years ago. The problem is the geometry is goofy, especially the way I want to run it. I suspect, if I would model it, the reason he has that long, looping, fork is to mitigate some of radical changes during bump travel. There are big looping rockers on some springer front ends that are like that, and the result is described as almost having power steering.

My design is perfectly straight from pivot to axle, and the geometry changes are bizarre, under bump travel.


Starting with 20-degrees of rake, I have:
5.123" of trail


At approximately 2" of bump travel:
Rake increases to 37.46"
Trail just about doubles at 10.127" 
and, the wheelbase grows by 3.726"!!!
So, in my imagination, at 0" bump you have this somewhat sporty feeling little cafe/streetfighter style (riding position and steering weight) bike, that turns into a full-on chopper with a little bumpiness on the road surface. It should be stable, and safe, just bizarre as it would kind of transform right in the palm of your hands.


Which, of course, makes me curious enough to want to build it!


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Oops.  I pulled the forks apart, and cut the aluminum sliders, removed the old front tire, mocked it up, and then remembered what I discovered was wrong with my rocker suspension concept (when I considered it for Scrape 2.0) - without a pretty serious rake, and probably the extended looping fork, encountering a bump would tend to push the fork against its natural direction of travel. Instead of going forward and up, the bump will push it back, until it overcomes the resistance. Crap! 

Well, everything is hacked up now, I have to find something. Back to the sketchpad and CAD shop...

If nothing else makes sense, I can easily convert to a girder design.


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## tylerwatts (Feb 9, 2012)

Todd, what about something like BMW's k series bikes front suspension? It carries some wild Todd flare already but I'm sure you could make it look better.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

tylerwatts said:


> Todd, what about something like BMW's k series bikes front suspension? It carries some wild Todd flare already but I'm sure you could make it look better.


I like BMW's Telelever system, but I can't fit it on this one, with how I want it to look. I really wanted the front to look like the steering head is just plopped down right on top of the tire.

That being said, I am going to revisit/rethink my rocker concept and see if I can make it work. I might not be able to, but it won't be due to a lack of effort...  Because Squat is a low speed concept bike right now, it doesn't have to be perfect; just reasonably functional.

I have been connecting the dots for the last three months, to figure out what I wanted to get rid of and what I wanted to keep, going forward. This was one of the last decisions, and I am really, really, happy that I did this. For a little while, Scrape might even be a challenge for me to deal with, as I don't have a truck or trailer right now, and don't want to buy one (at least yet). Squat, however, can now easily be transported anywhere in the back seat of my trusty Saturn. Perfect.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

toddshotrods said:


> ...I am going to revisit/rethink my rocker concept and see if I can make it work...


I sat for a while visualizing the front suspension moving, imagining the forces encountered when hitting bumps, and _think_ I may have something. Moving the pivot point three inches behind the steering axis should create enough opposing leverage, combined with an ultra progressive spring rate, that is super soft in say the first half-inch of travel, and ramps up in rate quickly, to allow the fork to do a reasonable job of moving in the right direction. I think/hope.  The highlighted lines are the fork at two inches of bump travel, with the rearward pivot.









Fringe benefits... at 2" full bump travel:


Rake is a little better at 33-degrees (vs. 37.46-degrees)
Trail is slightly better at 8.42" (vs. 10.127")
and wheelbase grows a bit less at 2.54" (vs 3.726")
The one thing I would have to allow for that wasn't present before is a little travel clearance for the tire. There is approximately 0.69" of upward travel right under the steering head.


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## PStechPaul (May 1, 2012)

I had a bike with a swing-arm front suspension, a Honda CA-160 that I bought new for about $600 (the first and only motor vehicle I ever purchased new). I liked that front suspension style because I thought it would work better than a telescoping shock fork. And it also had a totally enclosed chain. It looks a bit geeky, but then, so did I! (I can't believe that was almost 50 years ago - a half-century!)


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## tylerwatts (Feb 9, 2012)

Todd I must admit to not understanding your rocker design. Do you have any sketches of the actual structure and pivots etc, ie how it would look on the bike please? 
What is the aim of your front suspension? Show, go, comfort, driveability on bumpy roads? 2 inches of travel should give good low speed useable comfort. A high quality mountain bike shock would give great damping and with a good slope angle will give progressive travel. Do you follow? They can look rather bling too


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

PStechPaul said:


> I had a bike with a swing-arm front suspension, a Honda CA-160...


Technically, that's trailing link. The pivot point is right behind the axle, and there's a coil-over shock inside the fancy sheetmetal fork. I considered trailing link and leading link.

I always loved those Hondas. I was two when you bought yours, but ten years later I was drooling over them.  I want to convert and customize one someday...







tylerwatts said:


> Todd I must admit to not understanding your rocker design. Do you have any sketches of the actual structure and pivots etc, ie how it would look on the bike please?...


Not yet. This stuff is always all in my head. By the time I've used a sketchpad or CAD to communicate them, I've been through quite a few versions, did dynamic testing, FEA, machining simulations, etc - all in my noggin! 

Soon...







tylerwatts said:


> ...What is the aim of your front suspension? Show, go, comfort, driveability on bumpy roads? 2 inches of travel should give good low speed useable comfort...


Mostly show, with a bare minimum level of functionality (go). Definitely not made for bumpy roads. What does "_comfort_" mean?! 






tylerwatts said:


> ...A high quality mountain bike shock would give great damping and with a good slope angle will give progressive travel. Do you follow? They can look rather bling too


I have an eBay search full of them cued up in a tab, as a backup plan, in case I can't make my first choice work. That part is still a secret, until I at least start fabricating...


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## tylerwatts (Feb 9, 2012)

Haha, so Wednesday all will be revealed! We wait with breath held! So as not to steam up monitors/glasses and miss anything


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Tracking showed "Notice Left" all weekend, and this morning, so after the mail had been delivered I scribbled the tracking number on a piece of paper and took off to the local Post Office. After waiting ten minutes in line, I handed it to the clerk, he asked for the address, then fumbled around in back for a few minutes, came back up and asked for address again, and about five minutes later came up with my package. Notice, he never bothered to check, electronically, in the system to see if it was there? The other clerk decided that, with a half dozen people in line, she should go retrieve the mail from the boxes (outside and in the lobby), so it would be done before she left for lunch. I could literally feel the _love_ from the people behind me in line. Anyway, he checked my ID, and handed my package through the bulletproof glass. (Not joking or exaggerating about any of that...)

Finally, I have my little switch. 









This pot has a rotary on/off switch incorporated in it; hence, all the lugs. So, the throttle will power the bike up and down, as well as determine how fast it goes and when it starts to slow down. I want to incorporate a metal capacitive touch sensor (popular on custom cars for hidden electric door buttons, etc) in the actual bar. It would be an initial panic stop/hold on grades thumb switch for the stepper controlled rear drum brake. A nice simple trick would be to have it wired so I can simply power the bike down with my thumb on the sensor, locking the parking brake on (by cutting power to the stepper motor too). Later, when I am able to dive into the electronics more, all this can be programmed so that pressing that "button" at certain speeds would also dial in more regen, and the parking brake would automatically set when powered down, etc...







tylerwatts said:


> Haha, so Wednesday all will be revealed!...


"..._wednesday_..." Funny guy ^^^


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

As I transition out of this phase of existence, parts and systems like this will begin to rule the day. This is the planetary gearbox that will make Squat's throttle work. The ratio is approximately 2:1, and it reverses the direction. The pot mounts in the end of the bar, the sun gear goes on its shaft, the planet gears on a bar-mounted carrier, and the internally-toothed external gear mounts in the outside of the throttle grip end. This will all be visible through an acrylic window in the end of the grip, and the whole assembly is 1" in diameter, max dimension!  I am going to attempt to laser-cut a mock-up set, but I'm not so sure the laser can get this small, with the accuracy I desire. I will have them 3D printed in metal later.  The key is they're design-first, to meet the needs of the project, not the capabilities of the in-house equipment...


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## PStechPaul (May 1, 2012)

For a potentiometer, you might consider a ball bearing reduction drive as is used in some precision 3-turn pots and tuning capacitors. Since the torque is very low, you don't really need gears, and the balls have some slip which may be good, and can be adjusted by the pressure (preload). You may also be able to use roller bearings. I tried to find more detailed information:

http://www.nationalrf.com/reduction.htm
http://www.solidswiki.com/index.php?title=Reduction_Drives
http://www.globalspec.com/FeaturedP...tProducts/Planetary_Reduction_Drives/215088/0
http://www.jlkolb.cts.com/site/vernier.htm

The last link shows many examples, like this:


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

PStechPaul said:


> For a potentiometer, you might consider a ball bearing reduction drive...


Thanks Paul, that's a nice tip that may come in handy someday. For this application, I want the precision of the gears, and the mechanical aesthetic is a part of the appeal. You guys will know it's there, but it will be fun for me to see if people find and look inside the end of a throttle grip and find a little, quarter-sized, planetary gearbox! 

I'll try to give them a crumb/clue, with a little little blue LED lighting...


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## tylerwatts (Feb 9, 2012)

Typical Todd, should be awesome!


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

tylerwatts said:


> Typical Todd, should be awesome!


Thanks! 

The front tire was delivered today (UPS), right on schedule, and no drama. I'm off to get a new tube (punctured the old one, plus it was too big anyway), and should have it mounted later this afternoon. Then, back to that rocker suspension design...


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## tylerwatts (Feb 9, 2012)

Haha told you, Wednesday!


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Mounted the tire today, now I can do some measuring and planning and get moving on the front suspension design. It has been developing nicely in my head over the past few days...









Imagine that with a fat 330 tire!


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## tylerwatts (Feb 9, 2012)

Todd seeing it together looks great! Hey it's Wednesday, don't start building that suspension too quick or I might have to say I told you so! 
That front end is going to look brilliant with the rest of the bike though, I eagerly await progress.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

If anyone sees Tyler today, tell him it's Monday! 





tylerwatts said:


> Todd seeing it together looks great!...
> 
> ...That front end is going to look brilliant with the rest of the bike though, I eagerly await progress.


Thanks Tyler. I think I'm finally down to a final design - now to find time to realize it in the midst of packing and moving (soon).






tylerwatts said:


> _...Hey it's Wednesday, don't start building that suspension too quick or I might have to say I told you so!..._


Did someone say something? Did anyone else hear that? Must have been the wind.


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## tylerwatts (Feb 9, 2012)

Haha I joke to keep it light hearted but it is incredible and impressive how you execute your designs concisely and promptly Todd. No messing about just straight to business. That should be a real selling point for your business in future! 
I'm ashamed at how I've dragged my heals and still am with my builds. Got hardware sitting in the garage waiting for a bit of time invested and a bit of capital to get at least a first complete build on the road but it is difficult to get my momentum going on these bigger projects. 
I hope and pray you don't lose your momentum due to this move and succeed in fine tuning your purpose and vision because you are going to do and inspire great change in the world Todd! God bless and God's strength to you! 

Don't know where that more serious note came from, but now where's that girder build sir?!


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

tylerwatts said:


> Haha I joke to keep it light hearted but it is incredible and impressive how you execute your designs concisely and promptly Todd. No messing about just straight to business. That should be a real selling point for your business in future!...


I appreciate that, though the funny thing is I am barely scratching the surface of what I know I should be doing now and, compared to how I used to attack goals and drive through to the end (many years ago), I feel like I'm stuck in first gear.







tylerwatts said:


> ...I'm ashamed at how I've dragged my heals and still am with my builds. Got hardware sitting in the garage waiting for a bit of time invested and a bit of capital to get at least a first complete build on the road but it is difficult to get my momentum going on these bigger projects...


(lack of) Money is always a hard one to overcome, but one of my methods to not let that happen is to just dive in. Using Squat for an example, after sketching for a while, I just starting cutting. Once I am fairly certain I like the idea, I try to strategically bury myself deep enough in it that going forward looks at least as good as turning back.  I have a Superman complex, so I usually advise others to start small, build experience, and work up to the high dive.  Stings a bit when you realize there wasn't enough water (resources) in the pool! 







tylerwatts said:


> ...I hope and pray you don't lose your momentum due to this move and succeed in fine tuning your purpose and vision because you are going to do and inspire great change in the world Todd! God bless and God's strength to you!...


Thank you - that is going to be a challenge, but one I am determined to meet. I still don't quite know where I'm moving to though, so bear with me if there's a brief _interlude_. 








tylerwatts said:


> ...Don't know where that more serious note came from, but now where's that girder build sir?!


I'll need extra time to squeeze my ego out of the office door, back into the shop, now... 


No work on it today, I spent the morning doing CAD for a client, and most of the afternoon packing. Hopefully I'll get to have a little fun later or tomorrow.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

A huge part of the delay in getting Squat back together is I am designing with my feet still in the present, but eyes on the future. I have to make progress with what I have available, but want to really swing the doors open, with this project, to get on track for some really serious design work. So, any parts and systems I design have to be capable of further development, or be replaceable.

To that end, I am really making progress on the rocker suspension design. So much so, that I violated my new rule and purchased a couple pieces of aluminum - that will be delivered via *USPS* (flops on floor, kicking and screaming, in full-on tantrum)!!! 

These two chunks of 6061 will become the pivots/caps for the top of the fork legs. The first steps will be machining a pocket for the aluminum sliders, the basic profile cut, and boring the pivot holes. That will allow me to get the basic forks welded up and assembled. Later, through a combination of fabrication, machining, and welding, they'll slowly transform into functional art.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Sorting out the overall concept in the CAD shop. This also gives a sneak peek at the rocker front suspension. Each aluminum leg is capped with a machined aluminum pivot, that attaches to a corresponding pivot on the steering head, via quick release pins. I just stuck that pin in there because I already had it downloaded, but they'll most likely be spring-loaded versions. I plan to do a front brace to tie the two legs together and stiffen the fork.









The tank shell is currently rendered as a translucent, solid, shell but that will be carbon fiber mesh - when I can afford to get lost in CAD for a while. I'm not sure why the battery box looks so small, it is to scale in the model. Finally, I moved the headlight up because the front is taller than I had anticipated.
More to come...


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## tylerwatts (Feb 9, 2012)

Todd what maintains the rake of the front suspension? And how does it suspend? Are the forks simply pivoting about those pins? Is there details missing?


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

tylerwatts said:


> ...Is there details missing?


Yup, the springs and dampers are not in the model/rendering yet - purposely. 






tylerwatts said:


> ...Are the forks simply pivoting about those pins?...


It does, indeed, pivot on the pins. Rocker suspension is a compromise, at best. It's, admittedly, show bike stuff. I have been curious about how they work, or more specifically how the bike feels, with a rocker-style fork and Squat gives me a safe platform to experiment with it.






tylerwatts said:


> Todd what maintains the rake of the front suspension? And how does it suspend? Are the forks simply pivoting about those pins? Is there details missing?


The rake increases as the fork travels, from 20-degrees, all the way out to a little over 33-degrees. Actually rake and trail increase, meaning the bike will gain stability over bumps; albeit with a bit more sluggish steering via the handlebars.






tylerwatts said:


> ...And how does it suspend?...


When the bike rolls over a bump the fork pivots up. There will be springs and dampers to control this movement - that's the _secret_ part that I want to at least have in the works before I show it. Kidding - it's not really a secret. I just haven't seen anyone do it quite like I am going to try; so I'd like to at least take a shot at being the _first_.

And, maybe last if it bombs! 



The link I provided before of Jesse Rooke's bikes are where I first saw a rocker front suspension. He has a big long, looping, fork to give (slightly) better geometry. I am able to cut that idea down to the raw basics because of the (lack of) length of Squat's fork. The factory aluminum sliders that its based on are unusually thick-walled, which should make for a super rigid little fork, with the billet pivots welded in, and an upper cross brace (probably bolt-on, and in steel or SS for effect).


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## tylerwatts (Feb 9, 2012)

Sounds good! Figured something was missing but to be honest I'm surprised by the simple rocker design. Perfectly functional for your show bike but I'd struggle to see it working well on a full use multi-purpose bike. Can't wait for the Todd flare though!


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

tylerwatts said:


> Sounds good! Figured something was missing but to be honest I'm surprised by the simple rocker design. Perfectly functional for your show bike but I'd struggle to see it working well on a full use multi-purpose bike. Can't wait for the Todd flare though!


It would suck bad on a normal bike - choppers and show bikes, fine, because they're not expected to provide anything resembling sporty handling. That is commonly, and willingly, sacrificed for "cool" factor. 

On Squat, I expect the anxiety over whether it's going to stop to mask any ill-mannered handling deficiencies... 

It _will_ be a little showpiece...


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

The two billet pieces for the fork pivots are _supposed_ to be here tomorrow, so I decided to do a dress rehearsal in wood yesterday; to be certain it will play out in reality as it did in my head and in CAD. I used the 400 steering stem to fill in the blanks for the frame side, and clamped the headlight on for perspective. Eventually those pivots will be fully sculptured art pieces - this is the first step in that process. I like the _feel_ it's developing...









Big brother Scrape photobombing


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

After a day of waiting, and waiting, and waiting... I have the billet aluminum, finished the CAD drawings, have the ShopBot reserved for all night, and should starting cutting the pivots later tonight. 

I waited for three hours this morning for the aluminum. I got some work done on Scrape, and was near my physical (cold) and mental limit, when he finally pulled up. New driver, that also didn't know we have three units. If I hadn't been there he would have taken my billet stock back with him. He walked up to the door with mail for 1160, no package for 1170. I asked about it and he went back to the minivan and retrieved my alloy. 









Then, I waited three more hours - in my warm office - for the guy to show up to pick up the Porsche replica body. Time to relax, eat, catch up on some other stuff, and then start whittling...


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## tylerwatts (Feb 9, 2012)

And so it begins, the steady crafting of fine art from raw material! We wait in hope and awe! 

Even your billet bars look good as is in the photo Todd! Potential, raw potential, in the hands of a master craftsman. Chop to it then! (like my pun?)


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

tylerwatts said:


> And so it begins, the steady crafting of fine art from raw material! We wait in hope and awe!
> 
> Even your billet bars look good as is in the photo Todd! Potential, raw potential, in the hands of a master craftsman. Chop to it then! (like my pun?)


Lol, thanks buddy!  I hope phase one of these little pivots lives up to the _hype_. 

Phase two will be TIGing them onto the legs, and then some hand sculpting with a carbide cutter in the die grinder, and various sanding discs and drums on die and right angle grinders.

Phase three will begin in the CAD shop, involve making more chips on a CNC, more TIG, and more hand sculpting...

The end result should be firmly planted in the land of wretched excess.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

I'll post pics later. The ShopBot bit me again.  It machined the sockets the aluminum legs fit in perfectly, and in far less time than the software suggested. Then, on the first profile cut, about 90% of the way through it just lost its mind and snapped my precious aluminum-cutting bit like a piece of candy. 

I wasn't there when it happened - I hit start and retreated to my warm little office, after watching a few passes to make sure everything was okay. It happens to fast to catch even if you're there, babysitting it. It had freaked out once earlier, drilling the mounting holes, so I shut everything down before starting the actual machining, and rebooted everything - the machine's processor, the programming software, the computer, everything.

"Forensic" evidence suggests it was a software glitch - the same Z-axis gremlin that has plagued the machine for over a year now. I'm the only one who runs the machine long enough, or on operations complicated enough, for it to surface so there has been zero interest in solving the problem. And then, there's that typical apathetic Columbus attitude of _"it works okay, most of the time, so why worry about it, and try to make it better."_  It didn't plow into the side of the part, it looks like it just plowed the bit straight down into the aluminum, too fast, and too deep, snapped the end off, and then continued machining like it never happened. When I went to check on it, figuring it should be close to being finished with that part, it was still making its rounds around the profile of the pivot. X & Y coordinates were unaffected, and the rest of the broken bit was tracking the part perfectly. The aforementioned drilling failure was also a Z-axis error. It slammed the drill bit into the material, but that bit didn't break so it send the machine into seizures losing all coordinates because there was resistance it couldn't overcome.

I can easily hand cut the small amount of material left on that pivot and make it perfect. I don't know what I am going to do about the second pivot yet. I am reluctant to purchase another bit, because I was thinking about making this (and possibly Scrape's motor mount) the last things I did on that machine...

Because of that, I am not even mad, just disappointed that it didn't at least make it that far through the _second_ profile cut.


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## tylerwatts (Feb 9, 2012)

Ah sorry dude. Can't wait for you to be rid of that inferior contraption and get access to some serious cnc hardware.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

tylerwatts said:


> Ah sorry dude. Can't wait for you to be rid of that inferior contraption and get access to some serious cnc hardware.


Thank Tyler. I don't place all the blame on the machine. For what it is, it does decent work. The frame of the machine itself is a pretty shoddy design, and it moves via geared rails instead of ball screws, but remarkably (when it's "on") it does a nice job, with decent tolerances.

The big issues are mostly software related. The programming software is basic and very limited, but the machine processor's software is complete crap. Then, before the company solves the problems, they add more crap on top of it. It has been getting progressively worse with every "update". When you complain, they dish out another update... 

Then, there's _Columbus_. I consider that to be the real issue. There is no real, proactive, interest in solving it. The real solution would be to purchase a commercial license to a relatively high-end software package, for programming; and upgrade the processor to something capable and reliable. At that point though, it's questionable whether to invest that much into an inferior physical design, and it already cost far more than it's worth, so...

This is supposed to be a tech-oriented place, and that software would be applicable to every CNC machine and process in the place. Instead, if something simply works, it's deemed "good enough" and the attention and budget are directed elsewhere.

There is a huge, hulking, 3-axis, CNC mill in the shop now that was recently purchased. It has been sitting dormant for weeks, since being delivered by the rigging company, because there's no software to make it do anything. The proposed solutions are, again, second-rate, mostly open source/cheap, crap that will never unlock the potential of the machine. So, when it is finally up and running it will probably suffer the same fate when pushed. It won't be the machine's fault. It has a 40(x) X 20 X 20!!!(z) working envelope, and 1500lb table capacity!  Right now it looks like a dinosaur exhibit in a museum. Later it will act like a robotic dinosaur exhibit, running on basic programming.

Rant over...


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

Sometimes you just can't beat hand working over electrons and software.

I have recently reverted back to scrub planing timber over using the surface planer and thicknesser to make a few Christmas presents. Quicker and more reliable, and with better quality results.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Woodsmith said:


> Sometimes you just can't beat hand working over electrons and software.
> 
> I have recently reverted back to scrub planing timber over using the surface planer and thicknesser to make a few Christmas presents. Quicker and more reliable, and with better quality results.


I don't know if I can go there with you buddy!  Even with all the hassles, I love, love, love, CNC! My frustration is with the humans that development and maintain the software. I probably get the same sense of fulfillment and satisfaction watching a CNC machine work (especially with metal) as you do feeling your tools in hand shaping wood.


While I was out running errands, I was thinking about this and how to get my other pivot cut out. I looked at router bits in Lowe's, but all they had was the cheapo straight cut bits. I started to stop at a woodworking shop, and price a regular (non aluminum-specific), carbide, up-cut, spiral, router bit then it occurred to me that I could accomplish the same thing with my own .500" end mill. So, tonight, I will probably give that a shot. If I'm lucky, it won't go bonkers and chip my end mill (the bigger end mill probably wouldn't break, just chip). If it does, I can replace it a lot cheaper ($5-10), from eBay, than the aluminum cutting bits ($30 and up), or get it re-sharpened ($5-ish).

I just have to watch it doesn't clog up. I've used my ball-nosed, four-flute, .500" end mill, for doing the 3D surfacing on the ShopBot and it did a nice job and never caked up, so I have hope. The seat pans were done with that end mill. The fact that I am cutting on the very outside of the billet bar, and that there might not be any sidewalls left with the .500" end mill, makes me think I can pull it off...


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## PStechPaul (May 1, 2012)

I found a Mazak CNC milling machine for sale at $1000 on Craig's List in Hagerstown, not too far from Columbus. It was being discussed on a machining forum I have joined:
http://baltimore.craigslist.org/tls/4216548639.html
http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net/threads/61691-Items-of-interest-on-Craig-s-List

He is willing to take $750, maybe even $500, which is less than its scrap value. It needs some work, but probably not too much. You will need a big truck, as it's about 10,000 pounds.

Let me know if you go there, and maybe I can meet you. I like the Hagerstown area and I go there several times a year.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

PStechPaul said:


> I found a Mazak CNC milling machine for sale at $1000 on Craig's List in Hagerstown, not too far from Columbus. It was being discussed on a machining forum I have joined:
> http://baltimore.craigslist.org/tls/4216548639.html
> http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net/threads/61691-Items-of-interest-on-Craig-s-List
> 
> ...


That's the size mill they just purchased. I'm pretty sure I remember them saying it was 10,000lbs - which is why a rigging company delivered it, and put it in position in the shop. 

Meeting you would be cool, but I don't want a big old machine like that. If, I purchase my own CNC it would probably be a brand new "desktop" machine; ideally a 5-axis micro mill so I could spend two hundred hours machining a custom knob or button. 


*Update:*
The .500" end mill is working perfectly. I successfully cut the other pivot, and am getting ready to finish the first one, that the bit broke on. Another guy here was watching/talking to me about it. He said it's likely the cheapo collets. He said they had that problem before, and it turned out to be the bit getting pulled down in the collet after a really long machine period. That would most likely be due to the material getting hot and swelling around the bit - which aluminum would definitely do.


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## PStechPaul (May 1, 2012)

Would a cold air gun help that situation?
http://www.ebay.com/itm/4-EXAIR-COLD-GUNS-AIR-COOLANT-SYSTEM-250-PSIG-/350956065683
http://www.ebay.com/itm/ITW-Vortec-Cold-Air-Gun-610-/191002218688
http://www.ebay.com/itm/ITW-Vortec-Cold-Air-Gun-610-/130874490894
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Topring-68-272-adjustable-cold-air-gun-/121213785545

I think they are usually used for plastics, but could be useful for anything that gets hot.


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## dedlast (Aug 17, 2013)

toddshotrods said:


> If, I purchase my own CNC it would probably be a brand new "desktop" machine; ideally a 5-axis micro mill so I could spend two hundred hours machining a custom knob or button.


I have a Sherline model 2010 mill (metric) http://www.sherline.com/2000pg.htm
I haven't been able to talk myself into converting it to CNC yet, but that's still in the back of my mind. It is not capable of doing very big stuff, but what it does do is quite nice. I don't have any pictures of anything I've done on it but there are links on their website.

Bill


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

PStechPaul said:


> Would a cold air gun help that situation?...


Probably. I actually use compressed air with a conventional blower to help keep the temps in check on larger operations (like these). It definitely helps, so the cold air gun should be very effective. The best thing is lube, even an occasional shot of canned spray lube (what I did on the seat pans), but even with me putting plastic down first it gets on too much stuff. These guys work with pretty expensive wood sometimes, and I don't want to be the one who ruins a nice piece with my oily mess. I'm the only one that does anything this intense on that machine. The real solution would be to get the CNC mill working - it would make quick work of this stuff, facilitate more sophisticated CAD designs, and has a couple nozzles right there to keep the parts flooded and cool as a cucumber. 







dedlast said:


> I have a Sherline model 2010 mill (metric)...


That looks pretty interesting. I skimmed over some of the CNC stuff - will have to take a closer look later. Thanks for the link! 





There's definitely something flaky going on with the machine and/or software. The first cut yesterday went pretty much perfectly. I was over halfway through the part before it got any more than warm to the touch, and a steady stream of air in the most aggressive machining areas allowed me to keep that temperature to the very end.

Then, I flipped the previously cut part over, bolting it upside-down, in the same exact location I had just had success in, spent about 15 minutes tweaking the origin to make sure it was perfectly zeroed over the part (relative to the previous cuts that were then facing down, toward the table), and started running the exact same toolpath I had just run successfully - get my OCD, "anal-ness", in making sure I eliminated _me_ as a problem? The aluminum part was very cool to the touch - room temprature was 60-degrees, at best, and the part had been sitting in that room for over two hours...

I couldn't keep the temperature under control this time!  The very first pass it was getting hot - so hot, the compressed air would only keep it from going off the (touch) scale. Because of a software glitch, you can't pause the operation and let the part cool - it will almost certainly crash and destroy your tool and/or part if you try it. That's from one of ShopBot's most recent "upgrades" - it used to pause and continue, flawlessly. My best guess is the machine processor defaulted to a slightly faster feedrate than I specified. It can't technically do the (slow) speeds I run on this stuff, so on the (on screen) console it shows it running at its minimum, even though the machine is actually running slower - software glitch - it _can_ and _does _actually do it, but the software thinks it can't. For example I program to plunge into the material at 0.005IPM (inches per minute) to go easy on my bits and mills (because of the too-fast router speeds), but it defaults back to 0.01IPM after I create my toolpath (its theoretical minimum). Likewise, the post processor console also shows 0.01IPM, but it actually moves at my desired 0.005IPM - you can visibly tell it's moving at half the speed. Lots of thumb-twiddling waiting for it to travel an inch or more down to the material and back up (if you pause or e-stop), at 0.005IPM. 

I _think_ it somehow defaulted to its theoretical feed and plunge minimums and overheated the aluminum - in the same toolpath it had previously follow my instructions, successfully, to a "T". (It is hard to judge the difference between a 0.01IPM and 0.005IPM plunge in a 0.0625" Z-axis plunge for the next round of machining, and I wasn't really paying attention on the initial plunge - I assumed...) I should have stopped and reprogrammed, but everything you do on this thing opens the door for utter disaster, and I was able to keep it cool enough to get close enough, so I just let it run. I stopped when it started melting the metal, did a little hand finishing work to clean up a few ridges (two more passes would have finished it ) and have two pivots - finally!!!! 









You can see the small divot where it lost its mind on the first part, the first day, and plunged the drill bit into the aluminum, lost its coordinates, and started trying to drill again in a new location.

You can also see where the aluminum finally started getting so hot it was melting - it was just skimming across the part there, not really any heavy cutting, and still starting to melt it. I knew utter and complete disaster awaited if I let it keep going, into the large scallop cut (to the left and around the corner from the melted, pallet-knife, _artwork_ it did there.

If anyone really read all that babbling, you're as crazy as I am!


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

I'm trying my best to get Squat rolling again before the 31st. The biggest hurdle I have to overcome is my friend still hasn't given me the triple clamps, or the title (sounds familiar). The difference is I really believe he will, he just doesn't realize how pressed I am for time, and I'm trying not to push too hard. Unlike the other jerk, this guy is really a friend; he just moves in that easy-going Columbus pace...

To keep things on track, today I bored the pivot holes (on the little manual mill), and did the initial rough cut for rounding the pivot ends off. I'll start assembling the forks next, and then hope that he gets me the triple clamps in time to fabricate the chassis side of the pivots. With the rocker fork pinned in place, I would have a running bike again. It would still need suspension, but it's easier to keep the fire stoked with a bike that actually works.










There's a real possibility that I will have to put Scrape in storage until I can either get set up in a new facility, or get set up to tow it to places to work on it. The beauty of Squat is the _break-it-down-and-stuff-it-in-the-back-seat_ thing so, hopefully, interruptions here will be minimal.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

I texted my friend earlier and asked if there was any chance of getting the triple clamps soon. He said he'll stop by tomorrow, so hopefully nothing will come up and I'll have them. The plan would be to have the frame sides of the pivot fabricated and Squat rolling by the end of the week...

I started working on the design in CAD, to support that goal. I am going to do fabricated steel on this side. These two arms will be cut in 0.250" steel, will get 1.5" (o.d.) X 0.750" (i.d.) bushings welded on the back side, and 0.250" steel gussets, and (eventually) a lot of grinding and sanding to form a sculpted steel pivot. The yellow line is the developing shape, that will be bored, plasma-cut, and ground to shape. The rectangle is the (7.50" X 3.375") piece of material I am starting with.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Looks like my friend is going to be a no-show today...  I did, at least, bore the pivot holes in the plate. I don't want to cut it yet because I'll probably machine the slots for the ends of the triple clamp to fit it and it's easier to work with on the mill as a rectangle. Maybe tomorrow...

In the meantime, to entertain myself, I did an overlay of the CAD drawing on the plate.


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

Im using a 5 year old version of this with a 2kW spindle
I added the coolant tray, had to put a new 16mm thick alu floor down.
It does everything I need and its fast. up to 30mm thick alu
Ive made parts from sketch on paper to part in hand in 25 minutes.

http://www.signstech.com/ProductShow.asp?ID=497


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

RIPPERTON said:


> Im using a 5 year old version of this with a 2kW spindle
> I added the coolant tray, had to put a new 16mm thick alu floor down.
> It does everything I need and its fast. up to 30mm thick alu
> Ive made parts from sketch on paper to part in hand in 25 minutes.
> ...


I've seen some of your stuff in your racebike thread; nice work. I can't do the coolant thing because it's a community tool that's mostly used for wood, and they're satisfied with the plywoood/MDF table. 

The last time the router died (really just brushes) I tried to convince them to put a spindle on it, but they bought another Porter Cable router.  Now that I'm probably on my way out the door, they've purchased and are adapting a spindle... 


I am considering investing in a smaller one like yours, or an actual desktop milling machine, when I get settled again, somewhere, someday...


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

I should reiterate, that the real problem with this machine is the machine post-processor's software - it really sucks. Bad. 

Also, they have no need to make this cut aluminum any better now, because they have that huge, honkin, vertical CNC mill now - if they ever get decent software to make it run... 

I was just chatting with one of the guys involved in that deal yesterday, and they're still trying to use what we have been using to program parts for the ShopBot (the CAM software, not the post-processor's - the big mill has it's own post-process computer and software). It will work, but it won't allow effective use of that big CNC... 

My eyes hurt from all the sarcastic rolling.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

The guy who heads up the community workshop's jewelry station showed me a silver piece he cast, from a laser-cut acrylic plug. It was very impressive, and reminded me that I stopped working on the planetary throttle gearbox. I cut a set of gears on the laser. As I suspected, the kerf is wide enough at this scale that the gears no longer mesh properly. The teeth are all undersized by half the width of the kerf, and the center bores are over-sized the same amount. Unlike CNC machining I don't have the ability to specify which side of the line to cut on, so I would have to model the parts specifically for this laser to cut, in a specific material.

If they were closer, I was considering having him cast them in silver. Then again, silver tarnishes and I don't want to tear this down and polish it frequently!  I'll probably stick to the plan of having them printed in metal. In fact, I will probably extrude them into 3D models and get a quote from Shapeways soon. This gives a good idea how tiny the whole assembly will be. I might also start modeling the frame this weekend too.









My little pocket camera struggled to make sense of all the reflections, so I used a shot with the protective paper still on the gears to show the shape and size better. The upper right corner shot is obviously the clear plastic gears stripped of the paper. Ideally I would love for the gears to be copper or bronze, so that main shot might be more accurate anyway. Imagine this gearbox recessed into the aluminum end cap, and the internal gears and switch mounted on a little four-legged frame.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

http://hypercars.fr/2013/12/21/kawasaki-j-concept/

That reminds me that I actually have some extreme motorcycle concepts that were pretty much lost in the drudgery of meeting client and customer demands - some from almost twenty years ago. 

I often tell people that I am working at around 10% of my own potential, and every once in a while I see things that bring to light me just how far off _the real Todd track_ I really am...

I will say this: electric drive actually makes some of them possible, where I would really have struggled to integrate an ICE into the design.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

toddshotrods said:


> ..my friend still hasn't given me the triple clamps, or the title (sounds familiar)...


I think I'm learning my lesson. Still no triple clamps, still no title. Not even a word from him.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

So, anyway, to keep the project from stalling, I worked on the seat today. I actually figured out what I wanted to do with it yesterday, disassembled the bike, and then lost interest and momentum after that. 

Today, the momentum returned and Squat has its seat back.










That is Scrape's old seat post and mount, reconfigured a bit to work with Squat's spring-mounted seat.










I am, eventually, going to make a small pocket for the spring to seat in and weld/blend it into the mount. And, of course, add a gusset under the rear _tongue_, and smooth the jagged edges...










I have a couple ideas for the taillight that I have to try and see what works best. One is a neat little aluminum piece that came out of my old Honda Accord steering rack. The other would be molded into the steel base.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Leave it to me to design something that a $50K commercial 3D printer can't reproduce! . I spent a couple hours yesterday trying to upload the throttle's little gears to get a quote on having them printed in metal. No soap. The software wouldn't even load them - only error messages telling me how many areas of the model were too small. 

So, last night I cut a small line in the acrylic, measured the actual kerf, at the power and speed settings, in the 0.125" thick acrylic material, and started modeling a set of gears for laser cutting. The kerf was 0.022", so I modeled all the critical dimensions 0.011" under or over sized. That meant dissecting an individual tooth for each gear, sizing it for the laser, and rebuilding the gear with the new tooth profile. Basically, I modeled laser beam toolpaths for cutting gears, instead of the gears. That's what the programming software does in subtractive manufacturing - develops a toolpath to cut your part, with specific cutting tools. It goes fast once you get moving with it. I did the big drive gear, and the small spider gear, in a little over an hour last night; then finished the sun gear this morning.

Now to see if it works. I might have to do some hand filing on the bottom of the teeth, but that would be quick easy work in acrylic. The tolerances aren't critical, it's more about a smooth feel when rotating the throttle. If, this works I will talk to the jewelry guy about casting them in some metal. He's into silver right now, but can do copper and bronze...

The new _toolpath_ gears are highlighted (yellow), the desired outcome is in black.


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## tylerwatts (Feb 9, 2012)

That looks good Todd! I was going to ask why you don't just offset the surface of the 3d model but seeing the image brings the scale of everything into reality. I was thrown by the imperial values... I'm a metric mind...


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## tylerwatts (Feb 9, 2012)

Todd is that the laser that you etched your battery box side panels with? How does it control the depth of cut?


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

tylerwatts said:


> That looks good Todd! I was going to ask why you don't just offset the surface of the 3d model but seeing the image brings the scale of everything into reality. I was thrown by the imperial values... I'm a metric mind...


 Thanks Tyler. 




tylerwatts said:


> Todd is that the laser that you etched your battery box side panels with? How does it control the depth of cut?


Yes, same laser. There are two modes - raster and vector. Raster is what you would use to do images, like the battery box panels. It is basically engraving with a laser beam. The amount of power and the speed that it moves determine how deep the laser burns into whatever material you're engraving. So the more power and the slower you go, the deeper it burns in. It's slow because it, as the name implies, it rasters back and forth across the entire surface, with the laser firing in the areas where there is an image to be engraved.

Vectoring is what you do to cut, and it is just following a line, with the intention of cutting all the way through the material. Some thicker materials require two or more passes at full strength, maximum power, to make it through.

These gears are vector cuts. One pass at full power, 20% of max speed, cuts through the 0.125" acrylic very cleanly. The kerf I mentioned is the width of the cut the laser beam makes, like the cut a saw blade would make through wood or something.

I am going to give these a go tonight...


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

The revised gear profiles worked nice, but as a set they would require way more hand fitting than I am prepared to invest myself into at this scale. However, by substituting the revised profile sun gear, into the original set of gears it works. You can see a slight gap between the spiders' and the external drive gear's teeth, because I have it blown up quite a bit here. You're also seeing the burnt paper, with makes the gaps appear larger than they are. Looking at it in real scale they appear to mesh really well. There's probably actually a couple thousandths clearance there. When I hold a finger on the sun gear, and rotate the drive gear, there is very little play; and that's with the spiders floating. If everything was pinned to shafts and the throttle grip, I think it would be really solid feeling. I am going to look into having these cast in metal. I cut four complete sets of this combination. If there is play in the final assembly, I could always have the spider gears plated to tighten the clearances.


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## tylerwatts (Feb 9, 2012)

That look excellent Todd! You might need to start marketing these bad boys to bike builders! Hidden wiring in the bar, no hideous bulky throttle pot under the headstock, no messy throttle cables splaying everywhere! Good product this!


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

tylerwatts said:


> That look excellent Todd! You might need to start marketing these bad boys to bike builders! Hidden wiring in the bar, no hideous bulky throttle pot under the headstock, no messy throttle cables splaying everywhere! Good product this!


Thank Tyler!  For a production version, I would have custom pots made to spec, that eliminated the need for the planetary gearbox. I after I verify that this one works as intended, I might look into it.

Also, still no triple clamps, still no title. It looks like Squat will go into storage before it rolls again, but I will be able to stuff it in the back seat to continue development, when I finally get the stuff from him...


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Well, Squat came to an abrupt halt because my friend never gave me the triple clamps. All last week, I was engrossed in getting the Inhaler ready to roll into storage, and packing. The Inhaler is ready, and almost everything is packed now - including all of my tools - so work is officially over here. I have no idea when and where it will resume. If I don't get the triple clamps from him by the time I get settled, I will just purchase some from eBay. I didn't want to have anything else shipped here, because I was too busy to stalk the dude.

The jewelry guy was out of town for the holidays, and when I heard him out in the shop a little while ago, I grabbed the planetary gears and asked him about casting them. While he seemed super-impressed with the design and quality of cut I managed, he wants no part of trying to cast them...

I am going to shop them around to see about having them laser cut in metal next. That opens the whole kerf issue again, but as long as they know it, I can probably make it work.

Sorry for the pause.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

toddshotrods said:


> ...Sorry for the pause.


Well, that was a long pause! 

Squat is finally back in the mix! Scrape has an open invitation to spend a year in Iowa at the National Motorcycle Museum, but I can't seem to warm up to the idea. Instead, we've decided that imitation is, indeed, the sincerest form of flattery - so Squat is about to become a Scrape impersonator, and spend a year in Iowa...

I have been developing Scrape with an eye towards an eventual limited production run of these bikes, so this is a natural step in that process. Each production bike will be custom tailored to fit the client, so this will be the first working test of that concept - aimed at an hypothetical client. All the many ideas that I threw at Scrape were, in part, to explore the flexibility of the platform. With its mission to represent Scrape and TPD in the museum, Squat won't vary much from Scrape's basic design, but will be free from the racing mandate, and more oriented towards aesthetics and tech.

First step was to slice the old frame up and get the steering head, and swingarm pivot section on the fixture. Next, we'll start stringing tubes...


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

A bright idea that I had for Scrape, that was eventually killed because it was unnecessary for Scrape's go-fast mandate, might fit the plans for Squat - the finned motor case. Squat will, for the foreseeable future, be powered by my little ProTech motor. It's a permanent magnet motor, meaning the case can actually be replaced with an aluminum one. On Scrape the finned case was going to be a press-fit cover for the steel frame necessary for generating the series-wound field. So this would be a replacement for the actual frame on Squat, meaning better heat transfer, and maybe even a little weight reduction. I made the fins radial this time, to allow this part be cut on the metal lathe; no elaborate machining process necessary.









This also works with the rest of the cooling system. The lower third of the battery box will actually be a huge cooling duct channeling air directly through these fins. The point of all this is to explore how well a tiny little motor like this can move the bike (at lower speeds) with proper cooling. Where Scrape, naturally, has to focus a great deal on the batteries, Squat can emphasize the motor more; aesthetically and functionally.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

I like the look of that and can still imagine a pair of motors, with fins like that, in a V twin set up.

Would be good on a bike or the front of a Morganesque trike.


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## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

toddshotrods said:


> ...It's a permanent magnet motor, meaning the case can actually be replaced with an aluminum one. On Scrape the finned case was going to be a press-fit cover for the steel frame necessary for generating the series-wound field...


The case on a PM DC motor provides the same return pathway for magnetic flux as it does in a series DC motor, so don't go cutting it down or - worse - replace it with aluminum.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Woodsmith said:


> I like the look of that and can still imagine a pair of motors, with fins like that, in a V twin set up.
> 
> Would be good on a bike or the front of a Morganesque trike.


That was what I was experimenting with at the beginning of the Scrape project. Something I would still love to try, someday...














Tesseract said:


> The case on a PM DC motor provides the same return pathway for magnetic flux as it does in a series DC motor, so don't go cutting it down or - worse - replace it with aluminum.


Crap. I guess I got my facts mixed up. I asked about it and was given a thumbs - that was, evidently, for the AC motor...

I could actually do a mock-up of this with the little PM motor, then replace it with a finned AC motor; or just do a press-fit cover for the PM motor, like I was going to do on Scrape's series-wound.

Decisions, descisions...

Thanks for saving my little motor Tesseract. It really is a sweet little motor for what it is, and I don't want to ruin it.


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## ken will (Dec 19, 2009)

Woodsmith said:


> I like the look of that and can still imagine a pair of motors, with fins like that, in a V twin set up.
> 
> Would be good on a bike or the front of a Morganesque trike.


A V twin would look nice!
But a flat BMW type look would make the drive line a lot simpler.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

ken will said:


> A V twin would look nice!
> But a flat BMW type look would make the drive line a lot simpler.


I really love the V-twin concept. Not sure if it will happen on this bike, but I want to do it someday. Nic is supposed to be more engaged in the design and build of this build, so that would be something he has to love and want to spearhead. Above all, right now, I just need to have a roller to send to Iowa in May...


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## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

toddshotrods said:


> ...Crap. I guess I got my facts mixed up. I asked about it and was given a thumbs - that was, evidently, for the AC motor......


And that would still not be true... all motors require magnetic materials in both the stator and rotor. You can't replace the steel/ferromagnetic housing in any motor with aluminum and expect it to deliver expected power output, if it even works at all.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Tesseract said:


> And that would still not be true... all motors require magnetic materials in both the stator and rotor. You can't replace the steel/ferromagnetic housing in any motor with aluminum and expect it to deliver expected power output, if it even works at all.



Duly noted, thank you sir. 

Maybe I'll just do the press-fit sleeve on this little rascal then. I was thinking about this and ICE engines cool through water jackets in aluminum blocks, around pressed in steel sleeves. If the fit is good it _should_ transfer enough heat; in theory at least. I'll research the specs for sleeved ICE blocks.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

Heat shrink the finned sleeve in place with plenty of thermal heat-sink compound. 

Might require skimming the motor frame on the lathe to make sure it is clean, smooth and perfectly round on the outside. That would remove some material but hopefully not too much.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Woodsmith said:


> Heat shrink the finned sleeve in place with plenty of thermal heat-sink compound. ...


Yup, that would be the plan Woody. Heat the finned sleeve, freeze the motor case. I've been saying press-fit, but should be saying interference-fit. I wouldn't really want to use a hydraulic press on the motor frame and risk the chance of warping it.

The other way, with good math, and precise machining and heat control - slip! 

Idea Foundry has very precise kilns, and oodles of engineers running around ready to dive on stuff like this, and overcomplicate it.  



Woodsmith said:


> ...Might require skimming the motor frame on the lathe to make sure it is clean, smooth and perfectly round on the outside. That would remove some material but hopefully not too much.


Yeah, turning the frame for a little cleanup is commonplace - hopefully it won't mind. I need to pull it apart and have a look inside someday; and see how thick/thin the walls are, and what the magnets look like.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Lots of parts should stream in this week. To fill its role as a Scrape stand-in for the National Motorcycle Museum, we're using the same diameter tubing/frame layout, the same ZX6 front/900 rear Ninja suspension. Nic is going to try to pick up the tubing today, and the forks and swingarm should be shipped today.

There will be some differences, to give the bike its own personality, and set the stage for it to be a development mule later.


The motor, of course, will likely be the finned little PM beastie; with concentration on effective cooling to find the max low-to-mid range power-to-(motor)weight/size, rather than wretched excess.
The wheels are narrow, Honda 400, and will wear narrow, harder compound, 90 and 140 section width tires to focus on low rolling resistance, for maximizing range. I think they'll also be on the narrowest rim widths for their given sizes to help minimize the contact patch; and we'll run them at max pressure.
I hope to give Nic a lot of voice in the design and development, but want the focus to be "design-aesthetic". I want Squat to be a showcase of how certain design choices and features would appear. We have a meeting later today to discuss all this and I am going to push for a LOT of carbon fiber, because Nic is crazy about composites, and because I eventually plan to _go there_ with the bikes. With a carbon-wrapped frame and wheels, carbon body parts, and lots of machines metal accents, Squat would present what future versions of our bikes could be/look like.
You'll see the name "Nic" here quite frequently, because he is stepping more in the forefront of daily business activities, and because I am using Nic as the basis for the hypothetical client who is commissioning this build. I want all of our in-house projects to be built for an actual person, or an hypothetical client based on a real person, or composite of a couple/few real people. Bike #003 is already on the drawing board, and I am using Gary as my hypothetical base. 



More to come...


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Yesterday, Nic and I dug firmly into Squat's frame design and build. I measured and marked, then Nic cut and chamfered the halo bar from the race car 10-12pt cage conversion kit we purchased for Squat's chassis. This matches the size and type of tubing on Scrape's frame, and the upper rail tube I already had, and keeps the budget in check.











Next, I tacked the two bends, we measured and marked them, and Nic cut the hoop down to a inch or so oversize.











Then, we did a rough mock up on the fixture to sort out where we're going with this bike. With Nic playing the role of the hypothetical client, he committed to the unidirectional carbon fiber wrap, so Squat will feature an aesthetic peek at a (future) full carbon tube version of our frame. After a bit of prompting from me for him to act like a demanding wealthy client, used to having his way in life, Nic confessed that he _really_ hated the reclaimed sheetmetal center pivot section from the old Honda 400. I quickly assessed the goals, deadlines, and work to replace it, then removed the center pivot tube from the old sheetmetal with the plasma cutter.  We're going to fabricate a tubular crossmember that mimics Scrape's, with a small tubular upright to connect it to the center pivot tube and lower shock linkage mount. I am really going to enjoy working with clients to develop these bikes. That whole process was fun and ultimately very rewarding; the frame will be much better because of it.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

After getting Scrape back together and in the Hall of Fame, I needed a break to unwind a little. Nic also had vacation plans, so we pressed pause on Squat for a couple weeks. Work resumed this week. We had started turning the outer pivot cups, and finished those Monday. In addition to being the second bike, and a Scrape stand-in for the National Motorcycle Museum, we're using Squat to build Nic's machining and fabrication skills. He's been doing most of this work, under my tutelage.












Then Nic started stringing the first tube.












The guy is a natural. I was teaching a private instruction metal shop class for a CIF member, while Nic was skillfully whittling this notch - with a bare minimum of instruction and advice for me. I marked the cut with a Sharpie, said "do this, like this", and came back to find this sweet little fish mouth around the steering head. 













First tube tacked in.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

The updates have been non-existent, but Nic and I have been slowly making progress with Squat. The frame is pretty much there, and I reverse engineered the pivot section on Scrape and developed a pattern for what will become our proprietary design. I'm going to drill and machine the holes, then Nic will plasma cut and grind the outside profile in two steel plates. We'll hand-fabricate this one, which will help me hash out the CAD model then, someday, Scrape will be updated with a full CAD/CNC version of this. Sorry for the blurry cell pic. 










After we get this section hashed out, and the frame welded up, we start building the actual bike (suspension, motor, battery box, etc). Can't wait to take the first ride!

Long story-short, I think we're going to pass on the National Museum invite and use Squat to continue development of our concept. This will be a more artistic expression of it, to Scrape's more performance-oriented, functional interpretation. We'll probably also let people experience the concept with Squat (sit on it and ride it).


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Holes drilled and machined, ready for Nic to do some plasma-cutting and grinding to shape. I used the Bridgeport at Eric's shop to position drill the four holes, upper and lower to spec, then circular pocket machining ops to open the larger holes to size; all with conversational machine programming, based on my drawings and CAD models - simple . Ignore the four small holes in each plate - these plates are reclaimed from a previous project. I also have the file ready to laser-cut a more accurate pattern.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Last Wednesday, Nic hashed out the pivot plates. Next we'll fit these, notch and fit the upper crossmember, and tack the assembly in place; then it's time to weld up the frame and start building a bike.  I have some new tricks up my sleeve for Scrape, that _should_ send that battery box setup to this bike soon.


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## dedlast (Aug 17, 2013)

Yeah, updates! Thanks for keeping us in the loop.

B


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

dedlast said:


> Yeah, updates! Thanks for keeping us in the loop.
> 
> B


No problemo. Actually the activity should ramp up on this bike over spring and summer, and be fun and interesting to this community. It's purposes in the fold are:


Aesthetic/Perception - allow us to work out the details of the production bikes' look and _feel_, without concerns of satisfying sanctioning bodies, racing stresses, etc, that Scrape has to contend with.
Experience - We'll let people touch, sit on, and ride, this bike so we can gain feedback, and close deals.
Practicality - the battery pack in this one will (eventually) be built for range, reliability, and service life - not racing. Ideally, that would probably mean 18650s, but we'll have to see about welding and assembly. I would like to offer those cells as a production option, so maybe...
A lot of that stuff should be interesting to this community to see develop, more relative to the types of projects commonly pursued here, and more beneficial as we'll share the _how_ as much as possible.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Squat's frame is finally ready to weld up!  We still have to make the gussets but, just as with Scrape, the frame will be welded up and the bike assembled before that happens. An artist and fabricator, and fellow CIF member, named Rachel has been hanging out with us and this time she got her hands dirty with us and notched and fit the rear crossmember. 











It was Rachel, Nic, Curt, and I this time. Curt did the stitch work (welding). His welds are so nice it makes me want to tap him to weld the entire frame again, but this bike is supposed to have blended welds. We did a little cut, refit, and weld-up on the lower shock linkage mounting holes. I had Nic and Rachel shoot them with machinist's dye, scribe reference lines, we carefully positioned them on the fixture, then after Curt tacked them, I noted the distance the hole was moved, to update the CAD model. Today, I followed all that up with a little heat and (hammer) roll on the ends of the crossmember to tuck them into the hoop.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

I finally found some time to bring Digital Squat up to date. With Scrape getting a new set of rollers, Squat will inherit its current wheel and tire combo. I'm using the 5-spoke wheels on the digital bikes, because that's where I expect to go for production. Digital Squat now has the 110mm & 160mm tires, stock style swingarm, and the battery box and motor drive from Digital Scrape. I clipped the upper, front, corners of the box to fit in Squat's narrower frame. Eventually, I will develop new caps for those corners that serve as front frame mounts. The carbon tank shell and fairing from Scrape are also transplanted to Squat. Finally, I'm experimenting with a little color here, to balance my proclivity for dark, monochromatic, aesthetics - since this is the client experience bike and all.  Pretty clean little bike.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

toddshotrods said:


> Leave it to me to design something that a $50K commercial 3D printer can't reproduce! . I spent a couple hours yesterday trying to upload the throttle's little gears to get a quote on having them printed in metal. No soap. The software wouldn't even load them - only error messages telling me how many areas of the model were too small. ...





toddshotrods said:


> ...The jewelry guy was out of town for the holidays, and when I heard him out in the shop a little while ago, I grabbed the planetary gears and asked him about casting them. While he seemed super-impressed with the design and quality of cut I managed, he wants no part of trying to cast them...


Time away may have helped with this little project. A few of the CIF members pooled their money and purchased a new 3D printer that has a resolution of like 20-30 microns. It only prints in plastic, but I started thinking that if a sub-$5K machine can do this, maybe Shapeways mega-buck machine has improved as well.

I uploaded the gears again, and the same areas lit up as having issues, but this time when I clicked to let their software resolve them it came up with something can actually print. It added quite a bit of material to the spider and sun gear teeth but, with a magnifying glass/work light, a set of needle files, and a LOT of patience, this set of gears is actually doable.  That's a major improvement over the previous "no-way" I was receiving every way I turned a couple years ago... $40 bucks in stainless or bronze; not bad.










I also found out that Scrape's battery box fits in Squat's narrower frame much better than I expected. No cutting necessary, I just had to move it back a bit. I have Squat's frame in the office to help with the new proprietary suspension design going on Scrape, and decided to do some Squat mockups, afterwards.

The point of all the changes was to establish clear purposes. Scrape is a racebike, plain and simple, and many of my more artsy ideas don't lend themselves well to racing. Squat is pretty much all aesthetic, so I have freedom to play, creatively. Getting those ideas separated onto two platforms, makes each work much better.

Pics soon...


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## PStechPaul (May 1, 2012)

You can get that set in SS or bronze for $40? That's amazing! I'd like to know where I could get something like that, even for twice the price. But I seem to remember that this might be just for the throttle, and not for any significant amount of power. Even so, sounds like a good deal.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

PStechPaul said:


> You can get that set in SS or bronze for $40? That's amazing! I'd like to know where I could get something like that, even for twice the price. But I seem to remember that this might be just for the throttle, and not for any significant amount of power. Even so, sounds like a good deal.


Yes, it is real metal, but these _are_ for a throttle. Not sure how strong it is/how much power something like this could take before it fails? Real, structural, 3D metal printing is a thing now, but probably for a price...

Also - remember these are tiny - about the size of a quarter, assembled. 

This is the company I got the quote from: http://www.shapeways.com


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Here'e the Squat mockup, happening in my little home office. I thought fitting Scrape's old battery box was going to be a major ordeal, but it fits surprisingly well. I just had to move it back a little. It can move forward about an half-inch from where it is here. We're going to notch the top of the rear plate to allow it to move up, right under the tank shell.









I'm considering keeping the low-mount rear shock setup on this bike, for contrast and comparison to the new high-mount setup going on Scrape. That would allow more space for the motor controller behind the box. Without concern for fitting a large, powerful, controller for racing, we will be able to have a little fun with the controller mount/heatsink. More on that soon...

I want to mount the handlebars just like they are here. That would mean fabricating a new upper triple clamp that dips down under the bars, and shortening the fork tubes more - again, all fun stuff that can be done when you don't have to build for power and speed. That piece of project board clamped on is just to represent the fairing until I get the carbon piece here.

Another benefit of having no illusions of performance is space. We can fit on-board charging, BMS, whatever is needed, and most of it will be out of sight, out of mind, inside the battery box and tank shell. We can artistically display the components we want to show.

Finally, I am also giving serious consideration to making this bike easy to break down and stuff into a trunk or back seat. I want to, eventually, replace the chain with a belt. That would allow me to use an idler for tension, making rear assembly/dis-assembly a snap.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Having Squat here in the office, and doing my design thing on it, is a peek inside the process we envision for developing these bikes. I've spent so much time in the two shops getting the basic foundation hashed out that this part of the design process tends to get lost in the shuffle. Someday, this is what my work will be like - clean, quiet, and focused. Scrape scratches my itch for wretched performance, at all costs. Squat does the same for pure aesthetic design. Having it in the office, I can stare at it, and soak my brain in the vision for this bike. Clean. Functional. Sculptured.

Leaving performance behind, I can lock this bike into the size and type of components that give me ultimate design freedom. That little Alltrax controller that Scrape will soon be handing down is perfect. I call this a "Hanging Pedestal" mount. It takes advantage of all the machine work to create that mounting bracket off the back of the battery box, and artistically suspends the controller in the open space behind the box. We'll manually machine a small new heat sink, and hand cut the center plate, the weld it all together. Remember this all moves up and inch or so, when the box's rear plate is notched. I'm thinking about putting a fan inside the box, so that it blows air towards the controller, cooling both.













The box's front mount will be a hand cut, welded, and blended, steel plate fabrication; probably with turned bolt bosses. It will bolt to the steering head gusset plate. I think I am also going to update my battery box inspection plate design to simple, clean, finned metal, maybe bronze. I'm also eying the blue acrylic Bat-T logo and lightning bolt in the seat, thinking that casting those in bronze would be pretty sweet. Again, I am free to consider the best design options, because gaining a few extra pounds isn't such a big deal here.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

In anticipation of Scrape’s current motor controller becoming Squat’s, I cut the plate for the new heat sink on Great Machine’s trusty Bridgeport. It was bolted to a little fixture piece, via the two holes. The plate measures 0.640, and might be 7075 because the vertical bandsaw wasn’t happy about its role in roughing out the billet I started with. It will have fins machined into it and the socket for the pedestal mount (that will be welded to the heat sink).












I'll be counting on sheer metal mass, as opposed to deep fins, to keep the little workhorse cool. This (finned) plate, welded to the "hanging" portion of the pedestal, welded to the webbed foot, that bolts to the huge aluminum rear battery box plate, that the aluminum battery box itself bolts to - lots of metal to soak up the heat. I don't remember it ever even being noticeably warm to the touch on Scrape. 











The "hanging" portion will be hand-cut from 0.500" 6061 plate, and then given some artistic detailing, TBD...


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

I struggled in attempting to explore the aesthetic potential of our platform with Scrape, because to go fast safely (Scrape's prime directive) you just have to have a lot of stuff that is obtrusive to pure design. With Squat, the Ythos chassis will be rendered as purely and as cleanly as possible, then skinned with a couple pieces of carbon. Anything that's added to this MUST complement this aesthetic, or it simply doesn't make the cut. This is also one of things that I found so attractive about electric propulsion - I can put things how and where I want them.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

I roughed out the main plate of the hanging pedestal controller mount. I drilled the two tightest radius points, milled the tongue that fits in the foot plate, cut the profile on the vertical bandsaw, and did a first round of smoothing and shaping on the belt sanders. We'll carefully perfect that profile shape, then this gets TIG'd to the foot plate. I have an idea in mind for hand sculpturing the organic outer profile edges.












On Scrape the controller and electronics were going to be mounted on removable plates, to allow swapping them. I'm going to lock Squat into this basic size, so this will be welded together to form a one-piece, artistic, heat sink for the Alltrax controller.












The heat sink will have a socket machined into the center to accept the end of the main plate, then machined fins working out from that to the outer edges. As it will aim the busbars directly at the motor, and just inches above it, we'll get to have some creative fun with the power cables. That's when Squat moves up to a series-DC motor, from the little brushed-PM motor it has now. The PM motor has to have long, twisted, leads to work with the Alltrax AXE controller.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

One of the key features of this frame design is the long backbone tube, that sweeps down into the rear hoop. The size, shape, and mounting, of the seat accent this. On Scrape, I used the shape of the seat pan itself, to sweep up off the backbone, organically, and supported it with thin muscular stays. Scrape's seat rolls up radically, creating a backstop and dynamically shoving me headfirst into the bars, for maximum control in racing. Squat's seat is almost flat and level, and the bars are a bit closer, for slightly more _relaxed_ ergonomics (comparatively), so I designed really organic stays to create the organic polyhedron drama over the backbone. I'm still debating (with myself) the merits of welded steel or bolted aluminum. In the sketch, I have some hand/manual mill texturing in the center of the stay; or, they could be made from thicker metal and that section removed. I'm also toying with the idea of a small hemispherical lens taillight suspended from the seat's rear crossmember by a little hanging pedestal mount (lower right corner).


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Scrape's little bro is almost ready to step out of the shadows, wearing its complement of hand-me-downs. The first step will be using the little bar bender we made to create the tight radius bend needed for the first Lo-Back version of the TPD frame. That will allow a really low seat height, and traditional American chopper/bobber seat-to-bar ratio.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

The goal for Squat is to be as simple and resource-efficient of a project as possible. When I dismantled Scrape, it was a running all-electric motorcycle. I am transferring all those parts almost exactly as they were onto this, new, lo-back, version of the TPD frame; with the goal of having Squat running as quickly as possible. It has just been a matter of waiting for Scrape to hand down parts, and me to get around to working on Squat, but it's almost time. This is what I think it will look like. The furniture height seat provides a mild cruiser type reach to clip-on style bars and feet-forward foot pegs. It should be a comfortable little urban commuter bike. With no range or performance mandates, I can stuff almost all of the wiring inside the battery box, keeping the bike clean, and allowing me to (eventually) chase that idea of making the tank a woofer. In addition to hi-fidelity music, I plan to continue the effort I was pursuing with Scrape to amplify the motor and controller sounds through the battery box. I am going to hard-mount the DC motor directly to the box's rear plate to increase that potential. While rolling Scrape around with this battery box it was definitely working, almost like a big metal speaker, making interesting noises. Without concerns of fire containment (no volatile LiPo batteries here), I can use super thin carbon fiber side access panels, and try to make them resonate like custom rectangular speaker cones. All of this is possible, even with the "simple" mandate, because I had already created those parts for Scrape. On Squat, they're free to continue that experimental journey, with a narrower focus, unburdened of any racing needs. Should be an interesting experiment.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Squat striking a classic chopper pose: reclining on the (imaginary) kickstand, with the forks at full opposite (right) lock. I was tempted to do apehangers and footboards on this bike, but reeled myself back in to keep it on the fast track to being operational. To do it right, you can't just throw any ol' parts at it; the comprehensive design has to ask for them, and that can send a project barreling over the edge in a massive snowball. Low bars and normal pegs, in more of a chopper style digger makes all the existing parts work. We're scheduled to bend the bar for the frame Wednesday...


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

TPD *kids* latest family portrait.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

We did the bend today. Everything went *almost* exactly as planned. *Almost* because I was having so much fun watching that red hot bar roll around the die, I forgot to say "when!"  We had to un-bend it a little bit. From evil master plan in poster board, to fired, to formed. Next, a bunch of manual machining, then hand-fitting. There"s a video of the forging process, that I hope to get my mitts on soon...


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

This build is set to ramp up in the next two weeks, with the goal of having Squat running in February or March. In preparation, I'm hashing out some of the final details in CAD, to make sure it's headed in the right direction. I punched louvers in the top of the box, for more detail and a little passive cooling. The foot peg bracket is just a rough draft of the adjustable mechanism I have in mind. It'll add some mechanical sophistication to balance the bottom of the box, and make the bike more versatile as an EV experience bike. Finally to keep things simple, I reverted to a conventional round headlight with a small, windscreen style, TPD fairing to roll it up into the bars.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Machining completed, now some good old hand-fitting to work it into the frame. The tangs will slot into and through the hoop, and be welded on the other side, creating a really strong mechanical joint. The seat post slips between them, and will be welded top and bottom as well. This piece is probably between 4-5lbs now, about half the weight of the original bar.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Let the games begin! We removed the upper frame rail from Squat's frame, and after Rachel cleaned up the top of the hoop, she gave it a coat of machinist's blue (dye). Back in my cozy, quiet, clean, home office, I will layout and scribe the slot locations - then we'll dive into fitting the new bend, and creating the first Lo-Back version of the TPD Tetrahedron Chariot frame.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Forgot to post this onel. Just a snapshot of us forging the bend. I'm almost done editing the video.

The day the deed was done. Did you know people could have so much fun forging metal madness? That's my buddy Adlai Stein – master blacksmith and owner of Macabee Metals (the guy actually doing something in this pic), Rachel, and a couple of Adlai’s friends who helped with forging and making the day a blast


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Here's the video of the forging session. I have the frame setup in my office now, and I am in the process of laying out the slots to fit this piece.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

The process of laying out the slots is underway. I set the frame up in my office at ride height, with the correct (static) steering head angle, then leveled it from the swingarm pivot shaft. Then I set up a small platform under the hoop, leveled it laterally and longitudinally, and scribed the top lines for the slots on the front and back of the hoop. I did that by dragging a caliper, set to the correct height, across it. Next, I will confirm the center line, according to the frame's outer pivot cups, at the swingarm pivot shaft again, and then start scribing the slot locations. The camera flash makes these lines look faint and fuzzy, but they're really sharp and contrast well with the machinist's dye. Maybe I'll capture that better in the next pic...


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Layout for the slots is done; front on the right, back in the lower left corner. Again, the camera flash takes away from the actual clarity. I could have been a little more precise with a couple of the center punches, but those holes are really just so that the pieces will drop out when we cut the sides. Those cuts will be done with a steel-cutting, fiber, disc in the Dremel. Then, we'll carefully trim and open each slot until the tangs on the bend fit as tightly as possible.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Rachel is carefully roughing the slots in on the frame's rear hoop. Next we'll machine the tangs on the bend down to size and start actually fitting the bend into the slots.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Rachel machining the tangs down to spec. Time to fit that forged bend.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

The result - it's in there! Absolutely perfect fit. Now we put the frame back on the fixture and fit the backbone tube back into the frame, weld it all up, and Squat starts going together in time for a spring test ride.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Back in the office, I measured the amount the back bone needs to drop to fit back into its place on the steering head, then used Photoshop to confirm that the aesthetic at the rear bend will be what we’re seeking – yup!


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

New family portrait (latest CAD versions) of the TPD kids.


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## tylerwatts (Feb 9, 2012)

Todd, no belt drive for Squat? Won't the chain ruin the experience a bit? Not running too much power after all.


Tyler


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

tylerwatts said:


> Todd, no belt drive for Squat? Won't the chain ruin the experience a bit? Not running too much power after all.
> 
> 
> Tyler



Eventually, that is in the cards for Squat; to be as clean and quiet as possible. Being lower power does make that possible. Right now, the goal is keep things as cheap and simple as possible, so using whatever parts big brother Scrape handed down to it and what already existed in this project's parts bins. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Horrible pic, but we had to share. Rachel grafted the backbone tube in. A few final tweaks and this puppy gets welded up. The welds will go through a preliminary round of blending and Squat starts going together for a spring test ride.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

We threw the parts we have for the Squat build together to get a sense of the bike in real life and found this. By leaving the Ninja forks at stock length and tweaking the setup, we uncovered a neat, more conventional, cruiser/bobber. I reversed this setup back into CAD, to work out the suspension geometry. As soon as I am finished, Squat moves to the front burner.


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