# NEB Super Capacitor Lithium Battery



## Sparrow159 (Mar 30, 2010)

I saw this on the EV Car Parts site and after a quick search I didn't see any discussion on these. Just curious if anyone else is looking at them or has been adventurous enough to buy a few and test them?

NEB Super Caps 
10-100Ah, 3.2V, 5C-30C 
LiFePo4 Lithium 
Super Capacitor Batteries

At $2.50 an AH it's pricey but the 25C discharge and 5K cycles looks somewhat cost effective. I had heard of this tech being in development but didn't realize they are already here.


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## Ziggythewiz (May 16, 2010)

They've been around for a while, but straight lithium will likely always be more bang for your buck.


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## Sparrow159 (Mar 30, 2010)

I just did the math, $11K for a 144V 100AH NEB Supercap pack. You can get a 180 AH pack of Calbs for slightly less and still have a 3C discharge = 540 AH. I only use about 250 AH when I drive anyway. However, if your plan was to drag race or if the price comes down.....


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## Arlo (Dec 27, 2009)

Hobby lipo blows that out of the water for price and C rating!


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## ruckus (Apr 15, 2009)

Let's see...

CALB 60ah x 120cells = 534lbs... 600A @10C max, 180A @3C cont.
NEB 60ah x 120cells = 457lbs... 1500A @25C max, 300A @5C cont. 

NEB pack is 77lbs lighter.

CALB 100ah x 120cells = 900lbs!... 1000A @10C max, 300A @3C cont.
.NEB 100ah x 120cells = 740lbs.... 2500A @25C max, 500A @5C cont.

NEB pack is 160 lbs lighter. That is a good chunk of the weight of a Motor (depending on your motor).

Considering that the Scott Drive 200 system will require 600+A peak and ~200A continuous, that puts the CALB's on their knees. The specs suggest the NEB's could withstand that type of use a lot better.

And then there's the weight thing...

I am seriously considering the NEB's. 

Not to give anything away, but if you start talking about 800++ Amp (400v) controllers then the battery field narrows considerably and the CALB's become pretty marginal unless you are building a heavy long-range pack.

Cheers


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## ruckus (Apr 15, 2009)

Let's see...

CALB 60ah x 120cells = 534lbs... 600A @10C max, 180A @3C cont.
NEB 60ah x 120cells = 457lbs... 1500A @25C max, 300A @5C cont. 

NEB pack is 77lbs lighter.

CALB 100ah x 120cells = 900lbs!.. 1000A @10C max, 300A @3C cont.
NEB 100ah x 120cells = 740lbs... 2500A @25C max, 500A @5C cont.

NEB pack is 160 lbs lighter. That is a significant portion of the weight of a Motor (depending on your motor).

Considering that the Scott Drive 200 system will require 600+A peak and 200A continuous, that puts the CALB's on their knees. The specs suggest the NEB's could withstand that type of use a lot better.

And then there's the weight thing...

I am very much considering the NEB's.

Not to give anything away, but if you start talking about 400V 800++A controllers then the battery field narrows considerably and the CALB's are marginal unless you are building a heavy long-range pack.

Cheers


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## MN Driver (Sep 29, 2009)

CALB 60ah x 120cells = 534lbs... 600A @10C max, 180A @3C cont.
Considering that the Scott Drive 200 system will require 600+A peak and 200A continuous, that puts the CALB's on their knees. 

Only on their knees at 309 horsepower(subtract motor efficiency from that). How long do you need to draw that much? I wouldn't necessarily say that are on their knees unless you have your foot buried for a long time, are going from accelerator to brake and back continuously, have a very heavy car, or climbing a mountain. Oh wait, blue CALB SE cells already did that with Pike's peak.


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## Elithion (Oct 6, 2009)

Sparrow159 said:


> I saw this on the EV Car Parts site and after a quick search I didn't see any discussion on these.


Actually, we talked about them just the other day.
In this post I had an analysis of them, showing that, from a power handling stand point, they are smack in the middle of the range of all the cells and batteries we analyzed (twice as good as for Sinopoly / CALB / Winston prismatic cells, slightly better than the A123 20 Ah cells, far worse than power rated pouch cells). They are the orange bar in this graph.


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## ruckus (Apr 15, 2009)

Elithion, looks like I will be giving you a call. You are ahead of the curve on this one...

Merry Christmas Everyone!


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## Elithion (Oct 6, 2009)

Here's another interesting graph.
It shows relative value for various Li-ion cells for power applications.
For a given amount of money and a given battery efficiency, you may be better off getting more, low power, cheaper cells, than getting fewer, high power, more expensive cells. The battery will bigger, yes, but the range will be longer too. (I'd say that that's what Tesla did.)










(Note: prices fluctuate a lot, so this graph is subject to change.)


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## vmrod (Jul 2, 2010)

So,
getting back on subject, has anyone used the NEB cells in an EV application? (or at least to write a review)

thanks.


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## ruckus (Apr 15, 2009)

This fellow seems to have tested them and uses them in his EV.

The link at the botton shows his moto-bike. Looks fun! 



Linukas said:


> Hi,
> I use these hybrid battery on my high power bikes and they realy deals good with high currents. 20Ah and 60Ah cells have best wh/kg and wh/l rate. their performances are almost same as A123. but have little more Ah for same performance, kg and size.
> for ~10C rate you need additional cooling.
> for now I do not know better high power rate cells with acceptable price (price is ~1.6 expensive than calb).
> ...


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## Karter2 (Nov 17, 2011)

So, from a power point of view, they are better than CALB..
....but not as good as many others !
From a weight point of view they are lighter than Calb..
...but not as light as others !
From a cost point of view they are expensive ( 2x CAlb price ?)
So why the attraction ??
They just seems to be an expensive compromise. ?


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## ruckus (Apr 15, 2009)

Karter2 said:


> So, from a power point of view, they are better than CALB..
> ....but not as good as many others !
> From a weight point of view they are lighter than Calb..
> ...but not as light as others !
> ...


They are 35-40% more $ than CALB. Not 2x.

The attraction is they sound like the lightest and highest power 'brick' cells. Everything more powerful or lighter is a small cylinder or a soft pouch or a sketchy chemistry. Those pose considerable challenges and significant risks in packaging, monitoring, and cost even more (have you priced the batts near it on the chart?).

Imagine testing 3,500 cells and only being half-way through the pack!


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## jumpjack (Sep 9, 2012)

Assuming that using LiPo batteries on EV is deprecated due to safety, would these supercaps be a good choice for my 2 e-scooters? I need at least 25 km actual range, and thay have:

1800W/48V motor, 38Ah Lead-Acid battery
1500W/60V motor, 50 Ah LiCoO2 battery

Both of them weight around 90 kg and have dead batteries.


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## Karter2 (Nov 17, 2011)

jumpjack said:


> Assuming that using LiPo batteries on EV is deprecated due to safety, would these supercaps be a good choice for my 2 e-scooters?... I need at least 25 km actual range,.


 "A good choice" ? ...is a subjective question.
There is no reason to expect these to be any "safer" than any other LifePo4 cell.
but they do cost more, and they are not the best choice for energy density. (weight vs range)


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## ruckus (Apr 15, 2009)

I have now repeatedly tested a 60ah New Energy cell against a 60ah CALB gray cell. (Many thanks to the person who passed the cell on to me!!) The New Energy cell had already been repeatedly abused up to 1500A (25C) and down to 2.0v . The Calb cell was brand new.

I took repeated 400 amp pulls (6.7C) for ~15 seconds a pull while evaluating sag voltage. This was repeated until the voltage fell to 2.5v. Recharge and repeat..

I measured temperatures with a infrared thermometer. Amp hours were measured on a JLD404 and 1,000 amp shunt. Sag Voltage was measured on an analogue scale (on the carbon pile tester) and with a digital volt meter (at the battery).

I took video. I'll post a link or two when I get a chance..

The hybrid super-capacitor cells were superior in multiple ways from less sag under load to lower cell temperatures after repeated pulls (114F vs 95F). The M6 hardware of the CALB is teeny-weeny compared to the M10 hardware on the New Energy cell. The CALB vent broke off in my fingers. Very flimsy.

Please don't think I am dissing the CALB. It performed fine. I would call it the 'Standard' cell at this time. I would use them in a commuter or other standard-power system. In a race or hotrod vehicle the hybrid cell would perform superior (more power, less weight, less heat, and most importantly, less SAG).

Depending on the voltage and amp pull of the vehicle, the difference could be somewhere around 30-50 hp. 

Some people care about that last 30-50 hp. Those are the people who will pay a little extra to drive a 'Premium' cell.

I bought a set. 

Cheers.

ps. radical voltage sag affects other components as well, like dc-dc converters and controllers...


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## tylerwatts (Feb 9, 2012)

Ruckus those sound like serious cells. When you say superior power-weight, how so? What are the comparison values? I take it you used a 60ah CALB Grey also. 25c plus seems very impressive, I did not even know it was sensible to do that to a CALB and they deteriorate quickly. 

Could you post a back to back of the two cells' performance please? As you progressed through the repeat drains and capacity was consumed. Thanks!


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## Ziggythewiz (May 16, 2010)

Cool! Thanks for the info. I'm kind of obsessed with the concept of a booster pack (currently have a LiFePO4 booster on my lead) so if the cycle life on these proves good I'll likely end up with a booster pack of them after switching fully to lithium and then wanting more.


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## Sparrow159 (Mar 30, 2010)

Your testing is definitely encouraging. The thing that strikes me the most is the number of cycles that are listed on the spec sheet. 5,000 for the higher amp NEB vs the 2,000 consistently listed for all amp hr CALB. That would make the almost double price seem a bargain if it's true. Of course 5,000 discharges would take quite a while to test.

Matt


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