# Audi TT AWD Parallel Hybrid



## charliehorse55 (Sep 23, 2011)

I really like this idea, I was personally considering doing it with a BMW 318xi. 

I think the trick to achieving really high fuel economy will be to have two throttle modes. "Eco" and "Sport". In Eco mode, the diesel engine is not revved very high, and the electric motor is primarily used for acceleration. When sport is enabled, both motors are used to their full power for maximum performance. A huge portion of the fuel savings of hybrids is that they reduce the load of acceleration on the motor.


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## noooodle (Jul 17, 2011)

Pandatron,

I'm curious how are you planning to blend or switch what the throttle pedal is supposed to be doing?


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## Bowser330 (Jun 15, 2008)

I love your project! I would like to do the same type of project one day....

Another motor to consider is the AC-50 AC Induction motor+controller combo for ~4300$ USD. It is a bit pricey but you get 110ftlbs of torque and ~70hp from a lightweight package, only 134lbs. You also get regen, which can help recharge the pack and help save your mechanical brakes some wear.

http://www.thunderstruck-ev.com/ac-motor-kits.html (the power graph shows the older controller that can only deliver 550A, the newer version can deliver 650A, and thus more torque)

Since this is a direct drive application for the rear motor you must balance your desire for high speed driving with your desire for low-end torque multiplication...Example(s):

The AC-50 can spin safely up to 7000rpm, anymore and you are putting the motor at risk...so with a fixed gear of lets say 4:1 and assuming your tires are 25" in diameter, 7000rpm = 130.2mph, your torque multiplication is 4 x 110ftlbs = 440fltbs, which is from ~0-3500rpm or ~0-65mph.

If you wanted more torque multiplication you would want to use a higher numerical gear, lets say 5:1, but 7000rpm only gets you to 104.1mph, so if you drive faster than 104.1 you are putting the AC-50 at risk...you do however get more torque multiplication 5 x 110 = 550ftlbs form 0-3500rpm

You could set the electric motor throttle to be more sensitive than the ICE throttle, say for example 2:1 (or maybe more), so if you depress the throttle 50% for the ICE you are at 100% throttle position for the e-motor (full 110ftlbs), this will definitely help on overall fuel economy as the e-motor is getting the car moving from a stop, which is where most fuel is used (acceleration to a cruising speed). Maybe also add in a switch that turns off the AC motor when the car reaches a certain highway cruising speed? 

Once the battery pack drains down to a certain limit your BMS could trigger a mode where the AC motor will only be in regen mode until the pack reaches a certain re-engage charge state. 

Ideally you would have a way to charge the pack maybe from the running TDI motor, maybe a small generator that can run off the ICE when its cruising, something like this...http://www.thunderstruck-ev.com/motenergy-me1003.html, it can produce ~10kw continuously to your battery pack through a voltage multiplier to get the 72V up to your pack voltage...it could recharge while cruising so its got a full charge the next time you need to accelerate.


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## Pandatron (Feb 26, 2012)

There are a couple ways I can think of driving the car.

The most user friendly way to drive two motors would be to have the gas pedal function for both motors. That would require programming a restricted driving mode for economy by determining efficient ratios of throttle and an unrestricted performance mode for both the ecu and controller. Then both systems would need to be connected to a controller to change between them quickly. I don’t know how difficult controllers are to program, but programming vw ecu software is a nightmare. Also when both are engaged by the same throttle, they are both being let off during shifting and the e-motor is direct drive so it loses potential acceleration with this set up.

The easiest way would be to have a separate gradual throttle for electric controlled by your hand, whether on the steering wheel or shifter. You would just engage either as needed for the situation, so it may be more technical to operate but more it’s adaptive in the end.

*Is anyone else thinking Jet fighter shifter?










The method of recharging would be similar to how the prius operates. The ICE is not used during the city at all, until the battery reaches 20%. Then the ICE acts as a generator to produce enough power to drive and recover the system. If the tdi can get 55mpg cruising on the highway, I think it can get at least 55mpg during charging operation.

The dilemma I’m facing is how to generate properly from the tdi engine. Whether I should connect a generator by belt either beside or replacing the alternator or create a switchable mode that tricks the ecu to proportion 100% power to the drive shaft output and connect a generator end for quick recharges. 

Ideally what I would like is to have a generator capable of storing the full power of the tdi engine for short bursts, allowing that energy to be released as acceleration immediately following. This would primarily be useful as a performance feature to allow charging while braking into corners, then boosting out of them. It would mostly be necessary in having sustainable performance with a DC motor, even having an advantage over ac with bypassing the 10% loss in ac conversion.

Another problem I am concerned about is reaching the performance limits of any component will reduce the longevity of them. Most components specify a "Burst" limit where you can push them a certain amount for "x" seconds. But does that still harm the component to be pushed to the edge, and what if at some point I will hold for more than the recommended amount. 

More specifically, the AC-50 motors allow 67hp peak. I've read peak hp can be held for 10 seconds before I need to let off. But what happens when I inevitably will hold the throttle for more than that time? And is that recommended because of the heat produced, or can there be any interval of time between re-applying the burst?

Also I might have miscalculated the battery pack needed for the power I want. I've read to not exceed 3C for 10 seconds, but in my set up 40ah cells will be drawing ~650a.

If that's correct, then I can only safely draw 650a by using 200ah batteries to maintain ~3C. Achieving the voltage I will need using batteries that size will add more weight than I'm willing to add.

I've looked into the AC-50 and the power and price both seem unfitting for my build, but there doesn't seem to be many more options besides the AC-55 and Siemens. I would need 2-3 of these motors to meet my goals. Would either the company give me a "buy two get one half off" deal or is there another ac motor that would suit my specifications?

As for gearing of my build, the top speed of the ev system doesn't need to exceed 60-70mph. It will be optimized for acceleration because the same efficiency that will serve during city driving will compensate for the lack of low end in the high spool turbo diesel. So if 4:1 ratio allows for 130mph, then I could half that and use 8:1 ratio to meet my goals.

Don't be afraid to shoot some holes in my plans, I know I'm miscalculating left and right. This idea only came to me several days ago so I'm about as new as it gets!


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## charliehorse55 (Sep 23, 2011)

Pandatron said:


> There are a couple ways I can think of driving the car.
> 
> The most user friendly way to drive two motors would be to have the gas pedal function for both motors. That would require programming a restricted driving mode for economy by determining efficient ratios of throttle and an unrestricted performance mode for both the ecu and controller. Then both systems would need to be connected to a controller to change between them quickly. I don’t know how difficult controllers are to program, but programming vw ecu software is a nightmare. Also when both are engaged by the same throttle, they are both being let off during shifting and the e-motor is direct drive so it loses potential acceleration with this set up.
> 
> ...


I think the best way is to replace the throttle with an electronic one. Send these commands to a microcontroller. Along with an electronic clutch sensor the appropriate engine throttle could be determined. (Basically, if the clutch is open, no engine throttle)

AC conversion loss on a modern controller is only about 3-4%, which actually makes an AC system more efficient overall (As AC motors are about 95% vs 85% for DC motors).

I don't think it's too wise to install a generator capable of running at the full power of the engine. It will be very heavy, and running the motor at full power offers much lower fuel economy. Additionally, charging the batteries at such a high rate may not be a good idea. Remember the purpose of a hybrid is to level out engine load into smooth steady state operation. 

Finally, remember that the motor shouldn't go above 7000 RPM, off or on. I would suggest sticking with a ratio around 4:1 as it will allow you to drive the vehicle at moderately high speeds without worrying about breaking the rotor. Additionally, a differential has a gearing ratio around 4:1, meaning that you can simply hook the motor directly to the differential. 

As for batteries, take a look at Dow Kokam. They are expensive, but they have cells capable very rapid discharge (as high as 50C!). I would consider the high power 60 Ah batteries, as they are 140 Wh/kg and a discharge rate of 12C would provide the power you need.


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## Bowser330 (Jun 15, 2008)

Throttle:
I am planning to build the electronic throttle into the existing ICE pedal. 
As I mentioned before the throttle will be (for example) 2X as sensitive so 25% ICE throttle = 50% Elec throttle. This setup provides economy driving and sport driving. When I think of "sport mode" I think WOT (wide open throttle) conditions, in that case with WOT, both the throttles will be at 100%...

Generator:
I would start with a smaller generator maybe something around 10kw, since the city driving in an EV is generally more efficient than highway driving (consumes less wh/mile), 10kw should be plenty to charge the pack back up. I would run it from the accessory belt, voltage multiply it up to the pack voltage and either dump it into the pack directly or run it through your onboard charger for added protection.

Batteries:
For a hybrid application like this one, I would suggest against the larger, heavier CALB cells or the like. They are energy dense but they aren't powerful and they are heavy. I would check out/ research Headway cells, they can dish out the Amps and are cheaper than other high output cells due to their weight. Also contact cellman at his website emissions free .com, he cells grey market A123 cells that can burst 20C and for good prices, he also can build the pack for you and include a BMS to help manage the state of charge.

Speed:
Charlie is correct, When I mentioned 7000rpm = 104mph @ 5:1, that means the entire car's speed should not exceed 104mph, ever. Because as charlie said, whether the motor is "on" or "off" it just shouldn't be spun any faster than 7000rpm. So figure out what max speed you are comfortable with and gear to that speed.


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## Pandatron (Feb 26, 2012)

I really like your ideas! I hadn't thought of replacing the throttle mechanism with a microcontroller, which may allow me to bypass the hardcoding of the vw ecu. The tdi is not most efficient at idle rpm, and it cannot be raised through traditional means. Raising the rpms would give better fuel consumption during generation and provide less stress on the engine. The most important factor to efficiency of the ICE will be the ability to maintain a constant rpm, so during city driving it should only act as generation for the e-drive. However, this requires the car being shifted into neutral so as to not actually drive the car, so that would also have to be automated somehow to streamline the whole operation.

It seems like there's more favor to the AC option for this build. I prefer to use it too, but meeting the power goals within the budget needs to be considered. The only solution I can think of will be to utilize the peak power of all components, but program the controller to limit the burst time and increase cooling. It may be at the cost of some longevity, but there doesn't seem to be many options.

Sorry I didn't understand the meaning of the motor's top speed. The motor itself doesn't need to give power above 60mph, but it should certainly be able to handle movement speeds above 100mph. The car will primarily be focused on acceleration, but on rare occasions may reach up to 130mph. So taking this into consideration, the rpm of the motor will decide the gearing and therefore acceleration efficiency of the motor. The stock rear diff gearing is 3.89, but was also built to handle much less torque. It will likely be replaced by something heavier, so there is an opportunity for re-gearing.

I only know of 3 motors that could be used to meet the specifications:

1. AC-50 - 67hp/110tq/7000rpm @ 108v/650a
2. AC-55 - 79hp/202tq/8000rpm @ 312v/250a
3. Ford Siemens - 89hp/147tq/13000rpm @ 380v/282a

*All three options will require two motors

*The Ford Siemens is dependent on finding a compatible controller

Once the best motor is found, we can calculate the right battery pack to power it. Here are some rough calculations based on the information so far:

Battery types investigated so far:
Dow Kokam (pricing unknown)
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/vi...sid=f6068b087e84dc18d8aa08394419bab2&start=75
http://www.dowkokam.com/cell-specifications.php

CALB
http://www.evsource.com/tls_lithium_calb.php

AC-50 x1
Option 1: 33 x Calb 100ah @ 4.5C/10C x 3.2v= 70hp
10560wh
$4455

Option 2: 33 x Calb 130ah @ 3.5C/10C x 3.2v= 66hp
13728wh
$5775

Option 3: 29 x Dow Kokam 60ah @ 8C/12C x 3.7v = 69hp
6438wh @ >$1/wh

AC-55 x1
Option 1: 84 x Dow Kokam 12ah @ 16.5C/20C x 3.7v = 83hp
3729.6wh @ >$1/wh

Option 2: 97 x Calb 40ah @ 4.5C/10C x 3.2v= 75hp
12416wh 
$5238


*Battery calculations for Ford Siemens will wait for controller options

*These numbers are all subject to further development as I find better solutions.

Next to come:
Headway LiPo
http://stores.headway-headquarters.com/StoreFront.bok

Cellman

The total amount of w/h doesn't need to exceed 7-8k to achieve the specified range. The bigger problem is price, weight, and low output of larger cells. The Dow Kokam 12ah Ultra Power seems to provide the most efficient amount of power among the options with a 20C peak and 3.7v nominal, but viability is reliant on pricing. Pushing the CALB's closer to their peak C would also give better value, but I'm unsure of their integrity. Beyond these options, I may need to start looking into supercapacitors paired with low cost batteries.


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## frodus (Apr 12, 2008)

Headway is not lipo, it's LiFePO4, and is non polymer. 

For ford/siemens motor, use a Rinehart controller.


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## charliehorse55 (Sep 23, 2011)

If you really want performance, I would consider this:

AFM-140 - $9,000 - 225 hp AC motor - 40kg
Dow-Kokam 50C rate batteries - 85S4P = 4.5kWh pack capable of 300 hp - $5,000 - 
Rinehart 150 - unknown cost, but probably around $5k. - 10kg

Cost $20k (with accessories) 
Weight: 85kg - wow

$5k over budget.... however you would have a motor with 300 foot lbs torque from 0-60 mph! On electric power alone 0-60 time of around 6.5 seconds!

Finally, passenger vehicles are ALWAYS designed to utilize peak power. The power involved in acceleration is just so large compared to the steady state power output required to maintain speed. Most motor controllers have features built in to limit peak power output to a small duration. 

To charge the pack from the engine I would recommend building the 10kW DIY charger (can be found on the forums) then either feeding it with electricity from the mains, or from the generator.


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## frodus (Apr 12, 2008)

Rinehart is quite a bit more than that BTW.... just the PM100's are $8k.


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## charliehorse55 (Sep 23, 2011)

frodus said:


> Rinehart is quite a bit more than that BTW.... just the PM100's are $8k.


Ouch...

Maybe try the Tritium Wavesculptor200 for $6k.


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## Bowser330 (Jun 15, 2008)

charliehorse55 said:


> If you really want performance, I would consider this:
> 
> AFM-140 - $9,000 - 225 hp AC motor - 40kg
> Dow-Kokam 50C rate batteries - 85S4P = 4.5kWh pack capable of 300 hp - $5,000 -
> ...


Good call on the Wavesculptor200 Charlie...

Another motor you could use would be the Remy HVH250 7K$ USD
For Inverter the Wavesculptor for ~6K USD
Total Drive System is 150kw peak power for 13,000$ USD


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## FWD (Feb 3, 2012)

Bowser330 said:


> Good call on the Wavesculptor200 Charlie...
> 
> Another motor you could use would be the Remy HVH250 7K$ USD
> For Inverter the Wavesculptor for ~6K USD
> Total Drive System is 150kw peak power for 13,000$ USD


maybe instead of a dirty TDI use a small clean petrol ice.
its better for the environment if you have to run it.


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## Pandatron (Feb 26, 2012)

Those are exactly what I'm looking for, it's so painful how they are priced just above my budget! Maybe my budget figure was unrealistic for an AC build, but I'll keep those two in mind and see what else there is. 

The AFM-140 will probably reign over the options with power to weight ratio. The only thing I could see wrong with it is the ~15inch diameter which would make it a pain to install. Also I couldn't find voltage/amp specs on it.

The HVH250 seems comparable in every way I can see. I don't know much about it since the page doesn't provide much specifications ie dimensions power requirements peak rpm.

The Siemens page offers plenty of high power options, and there seems to be an abundance of their used motors around. Would any of them be fitting for this build?

Another problem I should address is the efficiency of these motors' gearing. If I give them a tall ratio for a 130mph max, won't it just feel like accelerating in 6th gear? That would negate the low end optimization the electric motor was purposed for. Ideally there would be one gear with a 60-70mph top speed with an electric clutch to disengage when it senses speeds above that. Or there are two speed auto transmissions that weigh around 40lbs and are relatively cheap which would add at least 30% more acceleration. Something like this: http://www.brinninc.com/brinnpro20.html

Wrightspeed uses a similar setup just using newer shifting technology, but same concept with great results.
http://www.wrightspeed.com/circuit.html

As for a gas engine, I don't know if there would be a comparable engine sub 1.9L that would better suit my purpose. It would have to have better than 190hp/55mpg/500k lifespan in a 3k lb car to be considered in this build. I think a negative environmental impact of this build won't be a problem, no matter what power plant I use. Anyway I brew my own biodiesel for around $1/gal which is also cleaner than unleaded gasoline.


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## Pandatron (Feb 26, 2012)

After some researching, I think my plans on the energy storage system need some work. My original specifications list an output of 150-200hp, and as much of that regenerated as possible. But to regain any large portion of energy, the batteries are again tolled to intake the energy if using brake regeneration. I'm concerned the rapid discharging and recharging will too heavily diminish the lifespan of the powerful lifepo cells, even despite my plans for an efficient cooling system.

What may be a more effective method in both performance and longevity, would be using ultracapacitors in front of the lithium pack by allowing a more free flowing stream of energy to be captured and released with marginal permanent negative impact on the integrity of the unit.

104 x boostcap 3000 farad maxwell 2.7vdc = 288v
DC ESR .23 = 1 million cycles

http://www.alfatec.de/fileadmin/Downloads/Maxwell/Large_Cells_650_F_to_3000_F_-_May_2010.pdf

This would add around $4000, but this setup allows the performance aspect of the battery pack to be significantly lowered. Instead the battery cells can now act primarily as a "savings account" concept, holding and dispersing energy at steady rates to the ultracapacitor as needed. This should offset any increase in expense and provide a more powerful and efficient system.

I haven't given up in the search of achieving my power goals through an AC motor. Using two motors does provide a large weight disadvantage to investing in a powerful lightweight one, but I still have hope that something affordable will find its way into my build.

This motor seems to fit my specifications and can be had for less than comparable models. Would this be capable of achieving the power goals in my setup? 

Siemens 1LA04454SP41

150-200hp @ 480v
1800-3600rpm

http://www.aaaelectricmotors.com/inventory/listings/details/index.cfm?adnum=1171505827


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## charliehorse55 (Sep 23, 2011)

Ultra capacitors are stupid. You would be adding 60kg of weight for 0.35 kWh of energy storage. Additionally, you can't even use all of this energy because the voltage of the pack gets lower as you discharge it. 

If you instead got 60kg of Dow Kokam 50C rate batteries, you could have an 8.4 kWh pack rated for 420kW burst. Typical driving rates wouldn't even exceed 1/3 of the pack's max rated output. 

The stress on a battery is related to it's maximum rated discharge rate. Even if you are running at 20C if the batteries are rated for 50C you aren't stressing them. 

As for the AFM-140, it can handle voltages upwards of 600V and currents of up to 350 amps (for a short burst).


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## Pandatron (Feb 26, 2012)

Hmm so would that motor be effective here? The only thing I can see wrong is the rpms are a little low and its air cooling may not be sufficient. Otherwise it seems to be okay.

Also what controllers could be used in conjunction with it?

*Edit: I just called to get more specs on the motor since the site doesn't list much. The weight and dimensions are going to knock this one out as a possibility. I think the air cooling on an engine of this output adds too much metal for surface area. Back to searching...

So the lithium pack is able to handle the power output, but does the electrical resistance work equally both ways? If the ac motor works in reverse with equal efficiency, and enough inertia exists then 200hp should theoreticall be capable of being returned. Obviously there are losses involved, but will litium batteries be a bottleneck for regen?


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## somanywelps (Jan 25, 2012)

Bowser330 said:


> Good call on the Wavesculptor200 Charlie...
> 
> Another motor you could use would be the Remy HVH250 7K$ USD
> For Inverter the Wavesculptor for ~6K USD
> Total Drive System is 150kw peak power for 13,000$ USD


Note that that controller is limited to 300Arms, whereas the motor is expecting up to 600.


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## frodus (Apr 12, 2008)

somanywelps said:


> Note that that controller is limited to 300Arms, whereas the motor is expecting up to 600.


The motor is still spec'd as 150kW. And the motor doesn't care if it doesn't get 600A, the controller limits power to maintain 300A per phase or below.....but the motor is still 150kW. That pair is actually well matched.

Look at the peak power rating:
HVH250 is 150kW
Wavesculptor 200 is 165kVA

Continuous:
HVH250 is 90kW
Wavesculptor 200 is 107kVA at 30C, 91kVA at 40C and 75kVA at 50C


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## charliehorse55 (Sep 23, 2011)

frodus said:


> The motor is still spec'd as 150kW. And the motor doesn't care if it doesn't get 600A, the controller limits power to maintain 300A per phase or below.....but the motor is still 150kW. That pair is actually well matched.
> 
> Look at the peak power rating:
> HVH250 is 150kW
> ...


No. The motor has a maximum voltage of 320V, which makes a maximum power of 96kW available from the WaveSculptor200. The wavesculptor is designed for higher voltage motors. 

Additionally, you could only ever get 1/2 of the motor's torque, IE 220 Nm instead of 440.


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## Bowser330 (Jun 15, 2008)

http://www.remyinc.com/docs/HVH250R4.pdf

The motor is also made with a max voltage of 650V, so the Wavesculptor200 should still work out. 450V & 300A = 135kw, the high torque version gives 460nm peak & 300A. 

I just can't find a source for them....maybe Vaxo can procure them?


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## frodus (Apr 12, 2008)

charliehorse55 said:


> No. The motor has a maximum voltage of 320V, which makes a maximum power of 96kW available from the WaveSculptor200. The wavesculptor is designed for higher voltage motors.
> 
> Additionally, you could only ever get 1/2 of the motor's torque, IE 220 Nm instead of 440.


True, but we need to do more than just look at a reseller's website which are notorious for mislabeling specs.

http://www.remyinc.com/docs/Remy_HVH_250_Sep09.pdf

Looks like you'd get ~325 Nm of torque and if you maxed the controller at ~450V, you'd be somewhere between 95 and 120kW peak (400 and 500V respectively) and 80 and 100kW continuous. So something in Between would be more like 107kW peak and 90kW continuous.

Now this may be a different winding, but we've been talking HVH250's and not a specific model.


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## Pandatron (Feb 26, 2012)

These are the specs from the data sheets. The match of the controller to the motors isn't optimal, but should be sufficient.


WaveSculptor 200 Motor Drive
Continuous bus voltage minimum: 0 V
Continuous bus voltage maximum: 450 V
Instantaneous bus voltage maximum: 475 V
Instantaneous bus current maximum (drive): 368 A
Instantaneous bus current maximum (regen): -368 


Remy HVH250-090-SOm electRic mOtO
DC Bus Voltage up to 700 V
Peak Current 300 Arm

AFM-140
Peak Voltage Maximum: 700V
Peak Current 300A

So both motors should have the same current limitation with this controller. It seems with the 300a motor max and the 475v controller max, either combination should be capable of 191hp.
The AFM is capable of handling higher numbers, but I don't see an affordable controller which can supply it to meet its potential.
* Rinehart 150 is about 13455.50
The HVH is $3000 less and it looks like about 3 inches smaller in diameter, which would help a lot.


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## Pandatron (Feb 26, 2012)

So theoretically, using those numbers the wavescultor has no limitations for regeneration for my application. I should be able to recover the full stopping inertia into the batteries. Even though this may give me high percentages of recovery in city driving, longer stretches of free flowing traffic will offset these savings.

However, another aspect of this build that hasn't been addressed is other methods of regeneration. This car will be focused on sustainability over carrying large capacity, so multiple sources will be crucial in achieving my goals.

Charliehorse suggested as my battery setup:
Dow-Kokam 50C rate batteries - 85S4P = 4.5kWh pack capable of 300 hp - $5,000 -

I like this choice, since it allows some money to be saved and provides longevity since it has room between the max C rate. But as you can see it only has 4.5kwh which falls short of the 7-8 kwh needed to meet the range goal for the vehicle.

Where this range could be made up is through using Solar Panels and Thermoelectric Generators. Neither source would provide enough to fuel a car by themselves, but together they may both extend my range and fill my batteries enough to not have to plug in often, if ever.

Solar Panels:
This idea is still up in the air depending on the viability. The roof could realistically be dedicated to PV cells. This would give me roughly 20 sq ft of usable area to cover and could be modified to have about 3 inches of thickness to allow multiple layers for maximum absorption through the light spectrum.

There are of course already established kits that some cars are utilizing, but I expect more efficiency could be had from a more deliberate setup with heavier cells. This kit claims to add 1.3kw to a Prius EV setup for a cost of around $3.5k, so if I could get performance at least equal to this I would be satisfied.

http://www.greenskid.com/prius-goes-solar

I would prefer to maintain the original shape and texture of the roof, so the way I would most likely build this would be having the exact shape made with glass or acrylic with the solar panels underneath supported by cross bars. Both of these methods are multi-purpose: the glass would serve to protect the solar cells and the steel cross bars would provide rigidity to the frame.


Thermoelectric Generators:










http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/08/11/30-year-old-space-probe-t_n_118126.html

The diesel motor provides large amounts of heat during operation, and should be a prime candidate for regathering lost heat energy from. The catalytic converter is one of the highest temperature locations in the vehicle and is far enough from the engine that cooling the exterior of the generators should be an easier task. Liquid cooling would provide the most benefit, and could possibly be diverted from the same liquid pump that cools the electric motor to save money and complication

So with the expected input of both of these technologies, I would be able to charge my current battery capacity by at least 50% each day without plugging in, which of course increases my range by that amount to meet my original range requirements.

*Both of these options could possibly be used in conjunction with the Controller to allow proper energy flow back into the lithium pack and to save money by multi-purposing components.


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## charliehorse55 (Sep 23, 2011)

Why are you against plugging into the grid? Depending on where you live, the power from the grid can be the cleanest source available. 

I live in Ontario, Canada and the grid's electricity is actually cleaner than solar power. This is due to the low output of solar power in this region and the clean power provided by hydroelectricity and nuclear. 

If you live in the United States however, it makes a LOT of sense to use solar. Their grid is mostly based from coal and is incredibly dirty.


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## Pandatron (Feb 26, 2012)

Sorry if the context of my build is unclear, basically I need to have very long range because I will be doing a lot of traveling. By focusing on self sustainability, there's no limitation to how far I can extend this level of efficiency. So I'm not against plugging into the grid, but the availability of being able to plug in will be limited. I still have the option of plugging in when I'm in a routine situation, but otherwise alternative means of generation will serve to fill the battery pack before resorting to ICE generation. (Which is still a better alternative than pure ICE during city driving)

This concept will be applicable to the performance aspect as well. Where I would be using the capacity of the batteries several times over without a chance to go home and refuel.

If sustainability couldn't be achieved, then my EV system could be unpowered for large amounts of time. Anyway I will be living in TX, which I'm sure has the dirtiest grid in the country and a lot of sunlight.


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## charliehorse55 (Sep 23, 2011)

Neither the solar panels or the peltiers will produce enough power to cruise in your car. 

Based on texas sun and 1.8m^2 of solar panel, you will get about 2.5 kWh of energy per day. Based on 250W/h mile, that's only 10 miles of added range. Based on the figure of 800W from the peltier at 60 mph, you are adding about 3 miles of range for each hour of driving. 

The effects of these systems are negligible. I would suggest sticking with the diesel engine directly driving the wheels through the transmission for the highway, you'll have the highest efficiency. Use the electric motor purely for short journeys and acceleration/regenerative braking.


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## Pandatron (Feb 26, 2012)

You're right, these wouldn't provide enough for cruising. They would be purely supplemental to the existing parallel drive build. What they would offer is longer range and more charging freedom to the EV half of the system without drawing ICE power.

The solar panels will work uniquely to buffer days of lighter and heavier driving. For example, if I don't drive one day I will have absorbed 5kwh by the next.

The TEG (peltier?) alone at the estimate of 800-1000w will give me almost full charge by the end of my weekly 4 hour commute. And the engine still reaches operating temperature during idle so recovers almost the same energy, which would be used during city driving at low battery where the TDI would be powering the before mentioned generator as well to power the electric motor.

Combined with the kinetic energy recovery via AC regeneration, I think the EV system gains a lot of sustainability in all levels of driving with the introduction of these components. It would still only be used for short journeys and acceleration, but when traveling or away from a wall I would not be so limited by the battery range.


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## Pandatron (Feb 26, 2012)

Does anyone know anything more about these motors? It sounds too good, so I'm sure you guys would've mentioned it if it actually were.










http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showthread.php/yasa-motors-41428p2.html

http://yasamotors.com/technology/products/yasa-750

$2250 for 100kw motor and controller?

It seems like it's also the motor used in the Nissan Leaf...

Evo Electric also offers a motor controller kit to maximize the AFM-140's potential:
EDS-14042 Electric Drive System
http://www.evo-electric.com/inc/files/EDS-14042-Spec-Sheet-V1.3.pdf

I couldn't find the pricing though, so not sure if it would compete with the WaveSculptor200.


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## palmer_md (Jul 22, 2011)

Pandatron said:


> $2250 for 100kw motor and controller?


The article stated that they could reduce price by 20x if they got into volume production. So the price is probably $50,000 right now. I did not see any links to suggest otherwise.


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## DanGT86 (Jan 1, 2011)

This build plan is becoming very complex but if you are set on adding all of these generation/recovery systems I thought of a couple others for you to consider.

Have you given any thought to using radiator and exhaust heat to boil water and use if for a small steam engine to generate power. You could use that heat for a sterling engine as well. I don't know if you were planning to cover the entire exhaust with thermoelectric generators or if there would be some area for steam generation. Cummins diesel has a steam generation system on an industrial diesel they came out with recently. 

Biggest waste of energy in your whole build is the heat wasted by the diesel. I think you got the right idea trying to capture it. Finding a practical way to do so is the challenge. Don't forget the turbo is already capturing and using exhaust heat so your discharge temps out of the turbo will be lower than those of the V8 truck that produced 800 watts in that article. 

Also have you looked into the shock absorbers that generate electricity using the energy from the car bouncing over bumps? Couple of companies have developed different versions. One added 5% to the fuel efficiency of a military humvee in testing.


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