# Australians Aiming to End the 'Age of Entitlement' of Fossil Fuel Industry



## PhantomPholly (Aug 20, 2008)

How many times do you need to repeat a lie before it becomes the truth?

Oh, that's right - it never becomes the truth, it's just a lie that gets repeated endlessly.

Tax breaks are not subsidies. Period.

But, for those who love to call tax breaks subsidies - I'd be happy if our government ended all subsidies of every kind. After all, that would be fair, right?


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

A subsidy is a subsidy
If everyone else pays taxes and you don't it's a subsidy

Fossil fuels get subsidized by Incredibly low prices - they take oil/coal from public land and pay pennies - often they don't pay anything at all

The government builds roads and infrastructure to support their operations - the taxpayer pays for that

Then when it's all over the taxpayer gets the bill to fix up the mess they have left behind


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## PhantomPholly (Aug 20, 2008)

Duncan said:


> A subsidy is a subsidy
> If everyone else pays taxes and you don't it's a subsidy


No, it is a tax break. It isn't a subsidy until and unless it exceeds what you pay in taxes. Note that I don't believe in using taxes to pick winners and losers, and firmly believe that our lives would all be improved if there were zero exceptions from a simplified tax plan. That still does not change a tax break into a subsidy, however...



> Fossil fuels get subsidized by Incredibly low prices - they take oil/coal from public land and pay pennies - often they don't pay anything at all


And why should they - it's just sitting there in the ground doing no one any good until someone pumps it out.



> The government builds roads and infrastructure to support their operations - the taxpayer pays for that


Yep. They don't build themselves. Unless you allow individuals to buy up thorofares and charge tolls, that is...



> Then when it's all over the taxpayer gets the bill to fix up the mess they have left behind


What mess? Are you still claiming CO2 is a pollutant? Take that over to the AGW post!


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## aeroscott (Jan 5, 2008)

PP, you need to read the history of the oil depletion allowance .
It is over and above all invested $.


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

_What mess? Are you still claiming CO2 is a pollutant? Take that over to the AGW post!

_Excess of anything is a pollutant 
But besides that there is plenty of mess to see
Drilling mud
Tailings
Structures

The oil boys make a mess - but the coal boys make a HUGE mess


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## PhantomPholly (Aug 20, 2008)

aeroscott said:


> PP, you need to read the history of the oil depletion allowance .
> It is over and above all invested $.


The history of it is actually not relevant, only the math. The big numbers don't lie.

When profit - taxes + tax breaks < profit, it is only a tax break.

All this whining and gnashing of teeth, and even after the ALLEGED subsidies "big oil" makes less profit per dollar of capitol than most other businesses, while government makes 3-4 times as much per gallon as the producers.

Really, if you're going to try to invent a demon, at least make one that is evil.


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## PhantomPholly (Aug 20, 2008)

Duncan said:


> _What mess? Are you still claiming CO2 is a pollutant? Take that over to the AGW post!
> 
> _Excess of anything is a pollutant
> But besides that there is plenty of mess to see
> ...


That they do - or used to at least. Yet overall our country benefitted tremendously, and within a few more years coal will be utterly irrelevant.

Why you demonize and hold onto anger about people who never actualy hurt you continues to be a mystery.


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

PhantomPholly said:


> That they do - or used to at least.


Yes I used to think that today the mining/extraction companies would not get away with leaving the mess for us to clean up

Then you guys had that spill in the Gulf - BP is chiseling out of paying

And we had Pike River
29 men dead - and the company went bankrupt without paying any of the cleanup
The other companies that previously owned Pike River are still declaring massive profits 
(But not at Tax time)


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## Karter2 (Nov 17, 2011)

Duncan said:


> The government builds roads and infrastructure to support their operations - the taxpayer pays for that..


 Not always.
Most of the road & freight rail (Iron & Coal etc) networks in the mining areas of Au, are built, paid for, and owned , by the mining companies.

Without that investment, there would be no rail and few (maintained) roads in those regions, which would remain as undeveloped bush ( read desert !) 

FYI;- by comparison, the public rail system on the most densely populated East Coast, (Brisbane to Melbourne), is a run down, slow and in some sections , unusable, single track joke !


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## PhantomPholly (Aug 20, 2008)

Duncan said:


> Yes I used to think that today the mining/extraction companies would not get away with leaving the mess for us to clean up
> 
> Then you guys had that spill in the Gulf - BP is chiseling out of paying
> 
> ...


You were talking about coal. Now when I point out coal has not had a mess in a long time you switch to oil - which, by the way, was not nearly the cost to clean up that the ecofreaks claimed.

Pick a story and stick with it - just for a change.


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## PStechPaul (May 1, 2012)

The Gulf oil spill is still not fully cleaned up, and probably never will be, in spite of what the BP propaganda machine says. The mess from Exxon-Valdez also continues to create problems, and the company weaseled out on most of the compensatory payments through unfair legal action.

The damage from coal mining is less spectacular because it involves irreparable damage to habitat and pollution of air and groundwater that may take years to develop into fully catastrophic proportions.

I can't understand how someone who fancies himself a patriot can support industries that cause so much harm to people who do not have the resources to defend themselves. Oh, that's right, let them get their guns and drive out their oppressors by force. Let's see how that works out! 

And it is ironic that someone who criticizes any progressive/liberal information as lies, can laugh about the scientifically supported fact that CO2 can be a pollutant and continues to do harm, when he is not an expert and only believes his fanciful opinions because he wants them to be true.


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## aeroscott (Jan 5, 2008)

PhantomPholly said:


> The history of it is actually not relevant, only the math. The big numbers don't lie.
> 
> When profit - taxes + tax breaks < profit, it is only a tax break.
> 
> ...


 " The history is actually not relevant", willful illiteracy a hallmark the right. 
" Under our tax proposal the oil and gas industry will be asked to pick up a larger share of the national tax burden.The old depletion tax allowance will be dropped from the tax code except for wells producing less then 10 barrels per day. By eliminating this special preference, we'll go a long way toward ensuring those that earn their wealth in the oil industry will be subject to the same taxes as the rest of us".
Ronald Reagan ,1985 speech on tax reform


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

PhantomPholly said:


> You were talking about coal. Now when I point out coal has not had a mess in a long time you switch to oil - which, by the way, was not nearly the cost to clean up that the ecofreaks claimed.
> 
> Pick a story and stick with it - just for a change.



I mentioned oil - BP 
Also coal - Pike River

Which story have I not stuck with??


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## PhantomPholly (Aug 20, 2008)

PStechPaul said:


> The Gulf oil spill is still not fully cleaned up, and probably never will be, in spite of what the BP propaganda machine says. The mess from Exxon-Valdez also continues to create problems, and the company weaseled out on most of the compensatory payments through unfair legal action.


Interesting theory. Doesn't align with the facts. The total amount spilled was only 17 swimming pool's worth - the spill doesn't even make the top 50. After spending over $2 billion attempting to clean it up, the State of Alaska says, "_It is widely believed, however, that wave action from winter storms did more to clean the beaches than all the human effort involved."

_In other words, it pretty much cleaned itself up. Placed in the context of the good that our oil economy does for our world, this is pretty small potatos. Not recommending oil spills, but pointing out that pretty much every benefit has a cost.



> The damage from coal mining is less spectacular because it involves irreparable damage to habitat and pollution of air and groundwater that may take years to develop into fully catastrophic proportions.


Or, it may never be a problem.



> I can't understand how someone who fancies himself a patriot can support industries that cause so much harm to people who do not have the resources to defend themselves. Oh, that's right, let them get their guns and drive out their oppressors by force. Let's see how that works out!


It's easy - when you do the math, people are better off with these things than without. Once we have a better solution, we will switch. Patriots don't drink the milk and then blame the cow when a few people are lactose intolerant.



> And it is ironic that someone who criticizes any progressive/liberal information as lies, can laugh about the scientifically supported fact that CO2 can be a pollutant and continues to do harm, when he is not an expert and only believes his fanciful opinions because he wants them to be true.


There is not one single respected expert who says that CO2 at current levels, nor at levels projected through the end of this century, are harmful to life. If you think there is, produce a link to them rather than make up fanciful imaginary facts. You never do, and I know you won't this time.

As we have gone over many times before, by the end of this century CO2 will be on the decline - thus it will never reach harmful levels. Therefore, speaking about CO2 as if it were a pollutant can only be true in Science Fiction, not in actual reality.

Really, I am curious. When you continually say things that are untrue, what word would you like for me to use to describe that behavior?


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## PhantomPholly (Aug 20, 2008)

aeroscott said:


> " The history is actually not relevant", willful illiteracy a hallmark the right.


The conversation was about whether tax breaks are the same thing as subsidies. Obviously comparing two abstracts at once is beyond your ability, so this illiterate independent will try to 'splain it to you. Since the sum of all tax breaks - including the oil depletion allowance - is less than the taxes paid by the oil companies, then it is really a tax break, not a subsidy, and thus the history is irrelevant.

If you still can't understand that, get used to being poor.


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## aeroscott (Jan 5, 2008)

only a troll would say history is irrelevant.
No comment on Ronald Reagan


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

aeroscott said:


> only a troll would say history is irrelevant.
> No comment on Ronald Reagan


I had though that we had moved on - 
So that companies would not get away with making a mess and moving on
At least in the developed world -

Unfortunately I was wrong - history is still the best predictor


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## Caps18 (Jun 8, 2008)

There is the mess that was made in West Virgina by coal, both the mining operations and the river contamination. That just so happened to be caused by a shell corporation to two wealthy brothers that went bankrupt soon after. There are waste water/coal ash ponds all over that leak and contaminate nature. And there is the mess of trains transporting it everywhere. Let alone the pollutants. And the money going to unsavory people...

But that is just in the US Midwest. I bet similar stuff happens in many countries that are causing big problems.


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## PhantomPholly (Aug 20, 2008)

Duncan said:


> I had though that we had moved on -
> So that companies would not get away with making a mess and moving on
> At least in the developed world -
> 
> Unfortunately I was wrong - history is still the best predictor


Agreed, history is the best predictor of human behavior - which is why I bring it up frequently

It is still irrelevant to some topics, though - like whether a tax break is a subsidy. That's simple math, and history has nothing to do with it.


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