# Lots of options, questions and doubts



## CroDriver (Jan 8, 2009)

Hy guys! 

Here are some options that I was thinking off:


Option 1. 

Thunder Sky 92 Ah

http://www.thunder-sky.com/pdf/TS-LCP92.pdf

150 X 3,2 = 480 V

Constant discharge current: 270 A

Peak discharge current: 920 A!

480 X 920 = 441 kW - peak power!

360 kg weight 

Are the figures of the producer correct? *Where to buy this battery?? Price?*

I know that there are similar batterys like this: http://www.everspring.net/txt/product-battery-pricing.htm 

But they are to heavy for my high performance project

Option 2:

Koham 100 Ah battery

http://www.kokam.com/product/product_pdf/high_power/PL-302_SLPB80460330H_100Ah_Grade.pdf

150 cells:

555 V

500 A constant

800 A peak

405 kg 

444 kW peak 

377 kW constant

This would be an ideal solution but i can't find the price of the cells. I know that they are very expensive but they seam to have great performance.

A battery pack of 150 Koham 100 A cells would be the size of this box:




Option 3:

123A 

150X3,3V = 500 V

To get a acceptable range I would have to connect 50 of this 500V strings parallel.

This would be 500 V, 115 Ah, 525 kg, and *7500 cells!* 

One developers kit costs 110$. In one kit are 6 cells. 

7.500 cells = 137.500 $  To expensive!! 

Guys help me, I'm desperate 

Btw. I was thinking about two SIEMENS 200 kW AC motors


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## favguy (May 2, 2008)

The thundersky cells you are looking at are not suitable for an EV, these are the ones you need to consider: http://www.thunder-sky.com/pdf/2008926101826.pdf

Regards

Paul


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## CroDriver (Jan 8, 2009)

favguy said:


> The thundersky cells you are looking at are not suitable for an EV, these are the ones you need to consider: http://www.thunder-sky.com/pdf/2008926101826.pdf
> 
> Regards
> 
> Paul


Thank you Paul!

This isn't a bad option too. 

150 peaces = 432 kW peak power and 480 kg. Acceptable. 




180$ X 150 = 27.000$

P.S. Why isn't the 92 Ah Thunder Sky suitable for EV's?


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Those are the lithium cobalt cells that people have had problems with, and they can burn.
You might as well look into the 100ah cells, I'm not sure why they aren't on the list but they use the same case as the 90ah cells and weigh the same.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

CroDriver said:


> 150 peaces = 432 kW peak power and 480 kg. Acceptable.


1000 lbs of batteries isn't going to beat White Zombie, if that's what you're aiming for. His pack of A123 is less than 200 lbs.


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## CroDriver (Jan 8, 2009)

JRP3 said:


> Those are the lithium cobalt cells that people have had problems with, and they can burn.
> You might as well look into the 100ah cells, I'm not sure why they aren't on the list but they use the same case as the 90ah cells and weigh the same.


You mean this one?

http://www.thunder-sky.com/pdf/20081122102551.pdf

So this is definitely a good choice? Where to order them?


And what about the Koham battery? They look very good to me


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

CroDriver said:


> You mean this one?
> 
> http://www.thunder-sky.com/pdf/20081122102551.pdf


 Yes.


> So this is definitely a good choice? Where to order them?


 Depends, where are you located?


> And what about the Koham battery? They look very good to me


 I think they are very expensive and may not have a great cycle life, as I remember.


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## CroDriver (Jan 8, 2009)

JRP3 said:


> Depends, where are you located?


I'm from Croatia (central Europe)


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

I don't know what is available for you locally but you can buy direct from Thundersky or through everspring.net who has European distributors.


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## speculawyer (Feb 10, 2009)

No . . . fish do not get thirsty.


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## CroDriver (Jan 8, 2009)

I don't know which to choose... The price difference is huge! Are the kokam batterys a lot better?


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

CroDriver said:


> I don't know which to choose... The price difference is huge! Are the kokam batterys a lot better?


Hi Cro,

Nice pictures, but I don't understand the labels. Why are you looking at 550 some volts? What possible motor/controller would use that? The 230 volt AC motors and drives take about a 330 volt battery and the 460 V AC motors and drives take like about 700 V DC. And what is kW (p) and kW (c)? And for us stupid Americans, can you dual dimension the money figures? The pricing and your statement don't make sense.

Regards,

major

ps...Did an edit on the price tag I see. Makes a little more sense.


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## CroDriver (Jan 8, 2009)

major said:


> Hi Cro,
> 
> Nice pictures, but I don't understand the labels. Why are you looking at 550 some volts? What possible motor/controller would use that? The 230 volt AC motors and drives take about a 330 volt battery and the 460 V AC motors and drives take like about 700 V DC. And what is kW (p) and kW (c)? And for us stupid Americans, can you dual dimension the money figures? The pricing and your statement don't make sense.
> 
> ...


Sorry, wrong picture  Stupid American LOOOL  This picture was for stupid Croatians 




I was looking at 500V to get about 450 kW out of the pack because that's my performance goal. I still don't know which motor and controller to use. I was thinking to use two Siemens 200kW AC liquid cooled motors but they are not available any more... 

kW (p) = kW (peak)

kW (c) = kW (constant)

The Siemens-Ford 67 kW motor looks fine too but I would need 4 of them and there are no controllers for it


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

One other thing to consider, I don't think the Kokams have as good a cycle life as the TS, but I could be wrong so you should look into that.


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## CroDriver (Jan 8, 2009)

JRP3 said:


> One other thing to consider, I don't think the Kokams have as good a cycle life as the TS, but I could be wrong so you should look into that.


A guy in Slovenia made an conversion with the Kokams a year ago. He is very happy with the battery. 

My biggest concern now is the motor. I would like the have 2 Siemens 200kW AC motors but they are not available any more  Is there anything similar or even stronger? 

I found a 400kW controller but it is not build for EVs, maybe I could adapt it for an EV

http://www.lenze.com/lenze.com_en_a...ctor/9300_vector.com.jsp?cid=0b0164e08009091d


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

I did some more investigating and it looks as if the Kokams have similar life cycles to Thundersky.
As for motors the only thing I can think of is ACPropulsion has a 150 kw system that is similar to what Tesla is using, and I think UQM motors has 150 kw systems as well. Figure on spending around $25,000 for each system, times 2 for your setup.


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## CroDriver (Jan 8, 2009)

JRP3 said:


> I did some more investigating and it looks as if the Kokams have similar life cycles to Thundersky.
> As for motors the only thing I can think of is ACPropulsion has a 150 kw system that is similar to what Tesla is using, and I think UQM motors has 150 kw systems as well. Figure on spending around $25,000 for each system, times 2 for your setup.


This one?

http://www.uqm.com/pdfs/PowerPhase150 (2.4.09).pdf

The price is OK for me 

Is the controller included in this price?


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Yes that's the one I was thinking of. Price should include the controller. One thing to consider is with the ACP unit the DC/DC converter and the battery charger are included in the package, they actually use the motor windings as part of the battery charger, so you may actually be getting more for your money with ACP than UQM, but prices may be negotiable.


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## CroDriver (Jan 8, 2009)

JRP3 said:


> Yes that's the one I was thinking of. Price should include the controller. One thing to consider is with the ACP unit the DC/DC converter and the battery charger are included in the package, they actually use the motor windings as part of the battery charger, so you may actually be getting more for your money with ACP than UQM, but prices may be negotiable.


Charger included? How can they deliver a charger if they don't know which battery I will use? Wich one would you choose, ACP or UQM? Who can deliver faster?

I will contact them in a few days and order. My BMW already lost his old, stinky engine and is waiting for some torque


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

I would lean more towards ACP for 3 reasons:
They have a longer track record in performance vehicles, the Tzero, the Tesla Roadster, and the E-box.
There are good arguments, from my understanding, that the ACP induction motor gives better performance than the UQM permanent magnet version, and the ACP motor turns higher RPM's.
The ACP integrates more functions, as I mentioned. I don't know exactly how they control the charger, but it is certainly setup to charge at the voltage which is required to run the motor and can charge lithium packs.
One thing to be aware of when contacting either company, they both seem reluctant to deal with the general public but they will do so if they can be assured you know what you are doing. Try hard to sound like an expert, read up as much as you can on their system, and have a concise plan as to what you need and how you're going to accomplish your goals.
The guy who used to run EVbones got his hands on an ACP unit and is detailing his build of an EV Attack:
http://www.attackforums.com/showthread.php?t=2419


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

On the battery issue, for your intended use, if you can afford it, I'd go with the Kokam cells because I think they can supply higher current, (higher "C" rate), than the Thundersky cells.


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## CroDriver (Jan 8, 2009)

THANK YOU a lot!!


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