# Question about speed controllers (Curtis controllers in paticular)



## Guest (Jun 30, 2008)

Try Kelly Controller. Good prices too. 

http://www.kellycontroller.com/mot/High-Voltage-DC-Motor-Controller.html


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## ww321q (Mar 28, 2008)

That's funny Curtis lists no controllers over 72 volts ? What's up with that ?
J.W.


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## DVR (Apr 10, 2008)

Yeah thats weird everybody knows the 1231C is good for 144V but suddenly the wiki says 120V
and there is no mention of the 1231C on the curtis web page but the manual is still there to download.

spider senses tingling!!


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## SciTech02 (Jun 21, 2008)

gottdi said:


> Try Kelly Controller. Good prices too.
> 
> http://www.kellycontroller.com/mot/High-Voltage-DC-Motor-Controller.html


Those controllers look nice, but even they have a limit of 72 volts (you have to buy their special "High voltage" controllers). 

I wonder what is going on? This is indeed strage. I could always try to use a system voltage of 72 volts, but that seems too low.


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## Guest (Jun 30, 2008)

Special only because people asked for them. High voltage controllers are not the norm and are therefore considered special. Can't imagine a golf cart with a 144 volt system on it. Can't imagine a forklift with one either. But we need them for autos size electric vehicles. Not many are built. I have one. It is 120 volt Zapi which was modified by Zapi to 144 volts. That is a special controller. Nothing different for Kelly Either. I'd say the same with Curtis. Call them. They should give you the straight answer rather than an assumption. Never assume. Call them. You can call Kelly too. Excellent folks there. Or just email them with your question. Kelly Controllers will answer you back quickly.


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## frodus (Apr 12, 2008)

so get a higher voltage controller. What kind of vehicle is it? How heavy? The Kelly might be a little light on amperage.

The curtis 1231C is a 144V system, according to their website, and online dealers. The wiki is wrong if it says the 1231C is 120V. The 1221C is the 120V model. Maybe its wrong, or you misread it.

Kelly, Curtis, Zilla, Logisystems, belktronix and soon Synkromotive (my company, readying product for release), have at least a 144V system.

Only Zilla and Synkromotive have 156V systems.

Look at continuous amps, and what temp that's rated to. I wouldn't trust Kelly's claims of 300A continuous at 144V, because there have been people that say the Curtis works better, and provides more amperage. I'm not sure what their testing was, but 300A continuous seems a very high estimate from what people have said, so just look into it. They're also non-isolated. The Zilla rates theirs at 350A continuous, and I'm pretty sure they can't compete with Zilla.

Curtis is not programmable. Neither is Logisystems. I don't think Belktronix is either. The only ones that are are Kelly and Synkromotive. Either way, you're spending $1000 or more for a controller.


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## Guest (Jun 30, 2008)

Kelly is the new kid on the block and much that has been said about them has been speculation only. Time will tell with Kelly as more folks try them out. It may be correct about the Curtis. Maybe the Curtis is a modified 120 volt controller to use 144 like the Zapi I have. My Zapi is also programmable. 

Lets face it, controllers are expensive. If you take care of them and don't abuse them they will last for years and years of use. Well worth the investment. It's just another expense for your ev project. You can't have high power for nothing. No company makes a hight power controller for cheap. However Kelly is on the lower end of that scale. I am going to go have a look a Synkromotive. 




frodus said:


> so get a higher voltage controller. What kind of vehicle is it? How heavy? The Kelly might be a little light on amperage.
> 
> The curtis 1231C is a 144V system, according to their website, and online dealers. The wiki is wrong if it says the 1231C is 120V. The 1221C is the 120V model. Maybe its wrong, or you misread it.
> 
> ...


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## frodus (Apr 12, 2008)

> Kelly is the new kid on the block and much that has been said about them has been speculation only. Time will tell with Kelly as more folks try them out.


exactly... I just wanted to put the info out there, and make sure he checks into it. They might work just fine, and their service is great from what people say. Just make sure it will do what you want it to do, thats all.



> Lets face it, controllers are expensive. If you take care of them and don't abuse them they will last for years and years of use. Well worth the investment. It's just another expense for your ev project. You can't have high power for nothing. No company makes a hight power controller for cheap. However Kelly is on the lower end of that scale. I am going to go have a look a Synkromotive.


High power = either more expensive components, or more of the cheaper ones... either way = more cost.

Here are some rough specs and features of the Synkromotive controller. We should be launching a Beta Test program soon. Right now, the controller has basically the same i/o features as the Zilla (F/R contactor drivers, Main contactor controller, dash light, key/brake/start/Forward and reverse inputs), with the addition of USB for programming and a precharger built in, and fan cooled, not convection. Its 156V 600A+ (we have and will get higher current, but we fried the last motor because it wouldn't take the 600A for very long). It has done 300A continuous no problem. Its installed on my motorcycle right now, a Sparrow and is going into 2 new conversions... One is a Mini cooper, the other is a Pickup. It can be run at lower voltages as well (72V on my motorcycle right now). Fully programmable and pretty easy to work with.

www.evfr.net for some more information.


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## Guest (Jun 30, 2008)

> exactly... I just wanted to put the info out there, and make sure he checks into it. They might work just fine, and their service is great from what people say. Just make sure it will do what you want it to do, thats all.


Agreed. 

Also Kelly is not in the league of Zilla either. 

Can't wait to here more about this new controller. I'd like to use something like that with my Monster Kostov Motor. It does have interpoles and should do regen just fine. Are you going to provide that or keep it more like the the Zilla?


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## frodus (Apr 12, 2008)

gottdi said:


> Agreed.
> 
> Also Kelly is not in the league of Zilla either.
> 
> Can't wait to here more about this new controller. I'd like to use something like that with my Monster Kostov Motor. It does have interpoles and should do regen just fine. Are you going to provide that or keep it more like the the Zilla?


its a series motor controller, no regen. Sepex motors for car/truck EV use are harder to find.


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## Guest (Jun 30, 2008)

Kostov is a series motor and not a SepEx. It just has interpoles to reduce or eliminate the arcing caused by forcing a series to do regen. They do work as regen motors and they also can just be use as a normal series motor. Tis fine that no regen is available. Just like the Zilla. That is fine. Can't wait.


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## frodus (Apr 12, 2008)

Oh, I wasn't familiar with that motor. We're using all ADC and WARP motors.

We're also working on other EV system equipment..... Can't go into detail yet, but its damned cool. My motorcycle is getting all the prototype stuff.


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## desiv (May 20, 2008)

Yeah, I'm going for that new controller as well.
I happen to live just about an hour south of the guys who are making it, and I should be about ready with my conversion just as they are ready to go into production, so I've made sure they are going to let me know when they're ready so I can get my name on the list. It's got to be a sign. 

And besides, frodus has done all the bleeding edge troubleshooting on it for me. 

desiv


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## frodus (Apr 12, 2008)

desiv said:


> Yeah, I'm going for that new controller as well.
> I happen to live just about an hour south of the guys who are making it, and I should be about ready with my conversion just as they are ready to go into production, so I've made sure they are going to let me know when they're ready so I can get my name on the list. It's got to be a sign.
> 
> And besides, frodus has done all the bleeding edge troubleshooting on it for me.
> ...


I don't recognize your name, Who's this?

"bleeding edge", if by bleading edge you mean all the cuts and scrapes and bruises from putting this bike together... hehe, then yes 

Have you witnessed the controller in action? Its been good to me so far.


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## desiv (May 20, 2008)

My name is Desi.
(Hence the username. No, it's not a homophone for deceive! 
I've been emailing David about the controller.
I've read just about everything on your website, and it sounded good.

I was looking at a Kelly, but wasn't happy with some of the voltage concerns with that controller. My wife doesn't like the Curtis whine. Alltrax maxes at 72V. I was starting to move up, and came across your posts, and then found out Synkromotive was just up north!
(I'm in Salem)

I'll be doing a '75 VW Beetle. I've ordered parts, but most of them are still 4-6 weeks out for delivery, which should give me some time to work on the Bug.

I've seen the videos of the controller, but I haven't had a chance to swing by yet.

desiv


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## frodus (Apr 12, 2008)

please let us know. It would be good to get some indepentant feedback.

you're still a while out to the turn on, so we should be able to help you out. 

I need mount the controller correctly  we just threw it together last minute to get her running. Get it working first, clean up later is what Ives always says  The enclosure is nice. Vents for the fan, alum case with UHMW/delrin endcaps, aluminum busbar, USB, and a sealed connector for I/O.


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## kittydog42 (Sep 18, 2007)

frodus said:


> Only Zilla and Synkromotive have 156V systems.


Logisystems also makes 156V controllers.


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## frodus (Apr 12, 2008)

kittydog42 said:


> Logisystems also makes 156V controllers.


I was told a couple months ago they had a 144V.... Didn't see that they upped it to 156V. Last time I talked to Jim at logisystems, it was 144V. Good to hear!


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## ElectriCar (Jun 15, 2008)

The Logisystems 156V is out now. http://www.evsource.com/tls_logisystems144-156V.php

Just found it as I'm looking for one for my S10. Thought about Kelly but the Aussies are doing a recall of Kelly controllers and I've seen the youtube of the toasted controller.

I've since decided to look elsewhere. When is your system to hit the shelves. I'm shooting for September or October to have mine running. 

I'm going with 26 T125's and the FB1-4001 Advanced. What type current might that motor draw at full throttle? Any idea???


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## frodus (Apr 12, 2008)

ElectriCar said:


> When is your system to hit the shelves. I'm shooting for September or October to have mine running.
> 
> I'm going with 26 T125's and the FB1-4001 Advanced. What type current might that motor draw at full throttle? Any idea???


we've got a beta test program right now, PM me and I can get you more details on specs, pricing...etc.

The torque curve for that motor says just over 600A max, 150ftlbs of torque and 85Hp when you punch it at low RPM. Current drops as you increase speed. You won't be drawing 600A for long...


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## ElectriCar (Jun 15, 2008)

Just PM'd you. So if this motor will draw 600A then a 400 or 500A controller won't allow max performance or will it? If those controllers are using the 400A Littlefuse I've seen, these are semiconductor fuses and will blow as soon as the current spikes to it's limit. Those things are super quick in the industrial world!

Do the IGBT's come with recommended fuse size? I'd suppose they do. Also do you guys put in smaller fuses for a little cushion or go with the recommendation?

Oh one more bike question. Will it Smoke the tire???


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## frodus (Apr 12, 2008)

ElectriCar said:


> Just PM'd you. So if this motor will draw 600A then a 400 or 500A controller won't allow max performance or will it? If those controllers are using the 400A Littlefuse I've seen, these are semiconductor fuses and will blow as soon as the current spikes to it's limit. Those things are super quick in the industrial world!
> 
> Do the IGBT's come with recommended fuse size? I'd suppose they do. Also do you guys put in smaller fuses for a little cushion or go with the recommendation?
> 
> Oh one more bike question. Will it Smoke the tire???


4-500A won't let more than 4-500A, so you'll never get the 600A, or if you do, it'l be for very short periods of time. Its mostly because of heat dissipation.

The bike won't smoke the tire, yet. We ordered a new sprocket this week, so we'll see. I'd love to just get 2-3 AGMs and throw them in temporarily to smoke some rubber.


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## e_canuck (May 8, 2008)

Hi guys.

to get back to the Curtis. I notice the same variation of voltage. And had seen their website. But they are sold and are used at 144v.

So if I get this right. They can be overvolted and 144v and that number is actually arbitrary.

DP


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## ElectriCar (Jun 15, 2008)

gottdi said:


> ...Lets face it, controllers are expensive. If you take care of them and don't abuse them they will last for years and years of use. Well worth the investment...


One thing I'm not so sure of is the lifetime of a controller. I've worked in the electronics field since the 80's. Unless things have changed recently, (I've been in construction since '99) the large electrolytic capacitors useful lifetime was around 10 years. 

Some last longer but I'm not sure how long. I used to repair circuit boards and if I had a board over 10YO acting up I would replace all the electrolytic caps, often curing the problem. And I don't know if controllers have these caps. These caps can be identified by a - polarity marking somewhere on the case or an indention around the case on one end, the negative end.

However, things may be different now with supercaps and such. But if you invest $1500 in one and use it 10 years you should more than pay for the thing several times over. I'm estimating I'll save $2500/year in fuel @ $3US/Gal. Diesel is $4.50+ right now so those numbers are up to nearly $4000!


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## ga2500ev (Apr 20, 2008)

ElectriCar said:


> However, things may be different now with supercaps and such. But if you invest $1500 in one and use it 10 years you should more than pay for the thing several times over. I'm estimating I'll save $2500/year in fuel @ $3US/Gal. Diesel is $4.50+ right now so those numbers are up to nearly $4000!


The real cost of electric vehicles is in the batteries. Lead acid will cost you at least a $1000/yr. 

ga2500ev


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## Guest (Jul 20, 2008)

I need another vehicle anyway so that cost is not used as a yearly cost. The good news is that my VW Ghia will be paid in full when I am done. No monthly payments. If I take care of my batteries they should last at minimum 3 years. So it would cost me only $264 bucks per year ($5.50 per week or .785 cents per day) for batteries. Now I spend half that much in fuel costs per month right now. So with that I'd be way ahead of the game fuel costs wise than with any other sort of fuel for any other sort of car. Not including the normal operating costs and monthly payments for purchasing a vehicle. That is just fuel costs alone and yes I do include the cost of the battery in the over all fuel costs for the EV. Yes, electricity will be minimal. But the real purpose for building an EV is not to save money but to get away from using oil as much as possible. That is all. If I happen to save money then that is a side perk. : )

Pete


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## michaeljmutch (Jun 11, 2008)

SciTech02 said:


> Those controllers look nice, but even they have a limit of 72 volts (you have to buy their special "High voltage" controllers).
> 
> I wonder what is going on? This is indeed strage. I could always try to use a system voltage of 72 volts, but that seems too low.


 
Kelly doesn't limit you to 72 volts. Take a look.

http://www.kellycontroller.com/shop/?mod=product&cat_id=34,20&product_id=146


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## cruz'n (Jul 13, 2008)

Hi Frodus....we are doing converions/kits in ca and are looking for a good
controller like the Zilla. Since the Zilla's have such a long leadtime, they 
are pretty much out of the question for now. Are you looking for dealers?
When will your controllers be available? We are looking for performance and
it sounds like yours is a good fit.
thanks


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## engineer_Bill (Jun 24, 2008)

I just ordered a Kelly it was the closest to what I needed at the best price. I'll let you guys know how it works. Also I had to call to have them customise it for the motor/voltage I was using, same as the others. Call them and get a quote, it will be slightly more +10-20% than a stock.


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