# [EVDL] Fan or not to fan, that is the question



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Hello Mark,

A motor without a external fan will work with your driving conditions which 
means you must drive a lot faster to get 100k miles vs my 50k miles which 
took me 35 years to do hauling equipment will make my EV weigh up to 9200 
lbs at one time.

Ninety percent of the time, I am driving from ware houses to supply 
companies or from store to store which may only be 200 feet apart which at 
times is all in mall areas up to 2 miles long, not on roads.

I barely average 15 mph on city streets, because of all the stops and in the 
mall areas, it just about becomes minus mph.

In the winter time which is starting now, I may have to push through a foot 
of snow or cross streams which increase my AH usage from 3 AH per mile to 
over 10 AH per mile. I turn on the motor fan to prevent snow and water into 
the motor.

So it depends on the driving conditions. On a smooth level drive which is 
rare, I had as low as 2.6 AH per mile which I did not needed the motor fan 
on.

Roland




----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Mark Hanson" <[email protected]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, October 21, 2011 9:47 AM
Subject: [EVDL] Fan or not to fan, that is the question


>
> Hi Folk's,
>
> I have an Impulse 9" also putting into a Karmann Ghia. They look like a 
> ADC knockoff and have never used an additional fan on 8" ADC motors to 
> 100k miles in 2-3k lb cars or when using a 9" ADC on a 4k lb Geo Tracker 
> with 20 floodeds. I had a prestolite in my previous www.evalbum.com/1273 
> at 3k lbs and removed the pesky blower that was actually impeding air 
> flow. I needed one once on an old GE motor on a Sebring-Vanguard City-car 
> but it *didn't* have an internal vane fan. If your motor has an internal 
> vane fan you don't need one and keep vents all open on front & rear of 
> motor for air flow. I also have a dash temp guage using the original car 
> temp guage with a sensor mounted on top of the motor.
>
> Best Regards,
> mark
> www.reevadiy.org
>
> Message: 17
> Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2011 09:43:11 +0100
> From: Martin WINLOW <[email protected]>
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] temp sensor to brush install
> To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <[email protected]>
> Message-ID: <[email protected]>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
> Why-ever can't we get any info from Netgain on this issue? Surely it
> is in their interests as much as ours to be able to specify how to
> attach a temp sensor to their motors and use it in a consistant and
> tested way that protects the motor for given power use situations at
> varying ambient temperatures? They could even sell them.
>
> But then they don't even publish proper info on their motor
> characteristics either, just that rather useless '72V' data sheet.
>
> Come on Netgain! Lets have some real-life data - graphs at 120V and
> 144V would be a start and temperature performance at 20 deg C (or
> whatever) measured by a bolt on sensor, say, under one of the field
> winding bolts at different fixed current flows from 25A to 800A in 25A
> steps... Something!
>
> MW
>
>
>


> Gene Stopp wrote:
> >
> > > After some weeks of successful EV driving there are a few minor
> > > things that I ignored at first but are becoming items on my to-do
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Hi Gene,

I'm not using a blower on my Netgain Warp 9. I regularly put 300-400 motor amps into while driving up a rather steep hill. I have 8000 miles so far. It gets hot, but seems to be under the values allowed for the 9" motor, according to netgain (or at least I sure hope so!).

corbin



> Mark Hanson wrote:
> 
> >
> > Hi Folk's,
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Mark, Corbin, all,


>
> I'm not using a blower on my Netgain Warp 9. I regularly put 300-400 motor
> amps into while driving up a rather steep hill. I have 8000 miles so far. It
> gets hot, but seems to be under the values allowed for the 9" motor,
> according to netgain (or at least I sure hope so!).
>


NetGain Motors highly recommends the addition of an external blower on all
their motors. If you use the right blower, you'll move substantially more
air through it than the internal fan. Some advantages to the added blower:

1) Get the heat out of the motor
2) Minimize the amount of carbon dust inside the motor
3) Eliminate a path for dust and dirt on the commutator end (assuming
correct placement of the blower inlet and/or the use of a filter) and reduce
the amount of contaminants that can enter on the drive end as there is a
constant flow of air out this exhaust side.

I have a line of really great products for simplifying the addition of an
air cooling system:

http://www.evsource.com/tls_motor_cooling.php

-Ryan
-- 
- EV Source <http://www.evsource.com> -
Professional grade electric vehicle parts and resources
E-mail: mailto:[email protected]
Toll-free: 1-877-215-6781
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/private/ev/attachments/20111024/56fe7900/attachment.html 
_______________________________________________
| Moratorium on drag racing discussion is in effect.
| Please take those discussions elsewhere. Thanks.
|
| REPLYING: address your message to [email protected] only.
| Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
| UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
| OTHER HELP: http://evdl.org/help/
| CONFIGURE: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Thanks Ryan,
Cool, thanks for the info -- I wasn't aware that NetGain Motors was recommending the use of a blower. I can't find the information anywhere on the go-ev website; do you have a URL where it says that? if there isn't one, can we get one added to the go-ev website?

Thanks!
corbin




> Ryan Bohm wrote:
> 
> > Mark, Corbin, all,
> >
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Ryan, it's hard to tell from the pictures on the link you gave. Do your kits completely enclose the brush end, so that the only air blowing into the motor is from the fan? Is that what Netgain recommends? 

Thanks.

Bill



> Ryan wrote:
> >I have a line of really great products for simplifying the addition of an
> >air cooling system:
> 
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Bill,


Ryan, it's hard to tell from the pictures on the link you gave. Do your
> kits completely enclose the brush end, so that the only air blowing into the
> motor is from the fan?


Yes, it completely encloses the brush ("commutator end" or "CE" as it is
usually referred to by the motor manufacturers) end.

Is that what Netgain recommends?
>

Yes, so it can help keep stuff out of the motor.

The more perfect arrangement would be to have an equal amount of air flowing
in over each brush set. That becomes a nightmare to actually implement, so
the next best option of having the air flowing in from only one location is
used.

-Ryan
-- 
- EV Source <http://www.evsource.com> -
Professional grade electric vehicle parts and resources
E-mail: mailto:[email protected]
Toll-free: 1-877-215-6781
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/private/ev/attachments/20111024/86147ed2/attachment.html 
_______________________________________________
| Moratorium on drag racing discussion is in effect.
| Please take those discussions elsewhere. Thanks.
|
| REPLYING: address your message to [email protected] only.
| Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
| UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
| OTHER HELP: http://evdl.org/help/
| CONFIGURE: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

>
> Cool, thanks for the info -- I wasn't aware that NetGain Motors was
> recommending the use of a blower. I can't find the information anywhere on
> the go-ev website; do you have a URL where it says that? if there isn't one,
> can we get one added to the go-ev website?
>

Hmm ... you're right. I added it to the EV Source motor pages. I'm CC'ing
George at NetGain Motors on this. He'll probably add this information
somewhere on his site.

Thanks for the heads-up. Hard for people to know to do this if there isn't
any info anywhere about it!

-Ryan
-- 
- EV Source <http://www.evsource.com> -
Professional grade electric vehicle parts and resources
E-mail: mailto:[email protected]
Toll-free: 1-877-215-6781
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/private/ev/attachments/20111024/0e79a811/attachment.html 
_______________________________________________
| Moratorium on drag racing discussion is in effect.
| Please take those discussions elsewhere. Thanks.
|
| REPLYING: address your message to [email protected] only.
| Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
| UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
| OTHER HELP: http://evdl.org/help/
| CONFIGURE: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> corbin dunn <[email protected]>wrote:
> 
> > Hi Gene,
> >
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

>
>
>
> So you don't need to blow the motor for moderate use. You also don't need
> to blow it for heavy but intermittent use as long as the motor doesn't have
> enough time to overheat. However that's not an idiot proof system, an
> idiotic leadfoot could still find a way to cook the motor.
>

You're right. That's assuming though that the motor has been sized
appropriately for the vehicle. There are a lot of ADC 9 and WarP 9 motors
moving around S-10's and the like that are fully loaded with lead. That's
generally pushing this motor.

I wish more people would bug me about building a small control box that took
the CANbus from the controller and measured the newly-added temperature
sensor in the latest WarP motors, and using that information to
intelligently control a motor blower (it would also control the liquid
cooling system - pump on/off and fan speed.

Now that the idea is out there - if you like it, let me know. If I don't
hear anything, I'll keep it on the back burner. I think it would make a
really great addition to an OEM-quality EV conversion.

-Ryan
-- 
- EV Source <http://www.evsource.com> -
Professional grade electric vehicle parts and resources
Check out our super-low holiday prices!
E-mail: mailto:[email protected]
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/private/ev/attachments/20111025/9761811f/attachment.html 
_______________________________________________
| Moratorium on drag racing discussion is in effect.
| Please take those discussions elsewhere. Thanks.
|
| REPLYING: address your message to [email protected] only.
| Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
| UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
| OTHER HELP: http://evdl.org/help/
| CONFIGURE: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Hello Ryan,

I thought that the thermo temperature switch that is in the WarP motors are 
only On-Off switches. In the WarP-11 motor that I got from you about 3 
years ago have a thermo sensor that is epoxy to the inside top of the motor 
frame. This sensor reads normally open as does my GE-11 does. Is this 
thermo device a thermo switch or a thermo temperature sender?

I have not tested the WarP-11 motor out yet, because I am still running the 
GE-11 motor. The large Dayton blower 175 cfm fan is not directly control by 
these thermo switches. It first operates a Square D 10 amp glass plug in 
relay that has three each double pole through contacts where one contact is 
normally on while the other is close.

Because the thermo switches in the motor are open, showing the temperature 
is in the safe zone, I want this to indicate a green LED. This Green LED 
circuit is wire to the normally close contact in this relay which comes on 
when the Ignition switch come on and is wire directly to the other side of 
this normally close switch.

The thermo switch in the GE motor is wire directly to this relay coil. When 
the thermo switch closes when the motor temperature gets to 140 F. and opens 
when the temperature gets to 120 F. This switch activates the normally open 
contacts which one turns off the Green LED and the 2nd one turns on a Red 
Led and the 3rd one turns on a Borsch 70 amp auto relay, (do not use the 
Borsch 15 amp relay or the fan load will overload it) which turns on the 
blower fan.

Some blower fan motors may not be design for the standard speed controllers 
that is available in general use. The motor and speed control has to be 
match. A motor that is not design for speed control can have its rpm drop 
by 30 percent. More than that, then the motor ampere increases over the 
overload limit.

For example, if you have a motor that takes 1 HP at 8 amps to run a load at 
3600 rpm, the motor ampere will increase to 12 amps at 2400 rpm. To 
overcome this, you select a 2 HP motor at 16 amps and than you can drop the 
rpm until the motor is pulling 16 amps.

You then select a motor controller for 16 amps or more. The motor 
controllers I use is from www.kbelectronics.com that are design for 
frational hp motors. Many motor shops carry these types of controllers.

Roland




----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Ryan Bohm" <[email protected]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, October 25, 2011 12:27 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Fan or not to fan, that is the question


> >
> >
> >
> > So you don't need to blow the motor for moderate use. You also don't 
> > need
> > to blow it for heavy but intermittent use as long as the motor doesn't 
> > have
> > enough time to overheat. However that's not an idiot proof system, an
> > idiotic leadfoot could still find a way to cook the motor.
> >
>
> You're right. That's assuming though that the motor has been sized
> appropriately for the vehicle. There are a lot of ADC 9 and WarP 9 motors
> moving around S-10's and the like that are fully loaded with lead. That's
> generally pushing this motor.
>
> I wish more people would bug me about building a small control box that 
> took
> the CANbus from the controller and measured the newly-added temperature
> sensor in the latest WarP motors, and using that information to
> intelligently control a motor blower (it would also control the liquid
> cooling system - pump on/off and fan speed.
>
> Now that the idea is out there - if you like it, let me know. If I don't
> hear anything, I'll keep it on the back burner. I think it would make a
> really great addition to an OEM-quality EV conversion.
>
> -Ryan
> -- 
> - EV Source <http://www.evsource.com> -
> Professional grade electric vehicle parts and resources
> Check out our super-low holiday prices!
> E-mail: mailto:[email protected]
> -------------- next part --------------
> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
> URL: 
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/private/ev/attachments/20111025/9761811f/attachment.html
> _______________________________________________
> | Moratorium on drag racing discussion is in effect.
> | Please take those discussions elsewhere. Thanks.
> |
> | REPLYING: address your message to [email protected] only.
> | Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
> | UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> | OTHER HELP: http://evdl.org/help/
> | CONFIGURE: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
> 

_______________________________________________
| Moratorium on drag racing discussion is in effect.
| Please take those discussions elsewhere. Thanks.
|
| REPLYING: address your message to [email protected] only.
| Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
| UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
| OTHER HELP: http://evdl.org/help/
| CONFIGURE: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

>> So you don't need to blow the motor for moderate use. You also don't
>> need to blow it for heavy but intermittent use as long as the motor
>> doesn't have enough time to overheat.

Right. Use common sense. If it isn't getting hot, it doesn't need extra cooling.

>> An idiotic leadfoot could still find a way to cook the motor.

Also right. This is why you should hook up a temperature gauge or "idiot light" so the driver *knows* if it overheats. Same as an ICE; you may not add to the stock cooling system; but you *always* have temperature gauge or light.

From: Ryan Bohm <[email protected]>
> I wish more people would bug me about building a small control box
> that took the CANbus from the controller and measured the newly-added
> temperature sensor in the latest WarP motors, and using that
> information to intelligently control a motor blower (it would also
> control the liquid cooling system - pump on/off and fan speed.

The idea is good, but the implementation (sensor, micro, CANbus, etc.) seems unnecessarily complicated and expensive.

I use a bimetal thermal switch in series with the external blower motor. Mount this switch in the exhaust airflow from the traction motor. Put a resistor across the switch so the blower runs at low speed when the motor is cool, and high speed when the air gets hot and the thermal switch closes.


--
Those who say it cannot be done should not interrupt the one who is
doing it. -- Chinese proverb
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart-at-earthlink.net

_______________________________________________
| Moratorium on drag racing discussion is in effect.
| Please take those discussions elsewhere. Thanks.
|
| REPLYING: address your message to [email protected] only.
| Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
| UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
| OTHER HELP: http://evdl.org/help/
| CONFIGURE: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

I was hoping to use the sensor on the brush to do two things, run the temp
gauge on the dash and also run a PWM to power the fan. That way it is only
making tons of noise when it really needs to.


Sincerely,
Mark Grasser


-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf
Of Lee Hart
Sent: Tuesday, October 25, 2011 1:14 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Fan or not to fan, that is the question

>> So you don't need to blow the motor for moderate use. You also don't
>> need to blow it for heavy but intermittent use as long as the motor
>> doesn't have enough time to overheat.

Right. Use common sense. If it isn't getting hot, it doesn't need extra
cooling.

>> An idiotic leadfoot could still find a way to cook the motor.

Also right. This is why you should hook up a temperature gauge or "idiot
light" so the driver *knows* if it overheats. Same as an ICE; you may not
add to the stock cooling system; but you *always* have temperature gauge or
light.

From: Ryan Bohm <[email protected]>
> I wish more people would bug me about building a small control box
> that took the CANbus from the controller and measured the newly-added
> temperature sensor in the latest WarP motors, and using that
> information to intelligently control a motor blower (it would also
> control the liquid cooling system - pump on/off and fan speed.

The idea is good, but the implementation (sensor, micro, CANbus, etc.) seems
unnecessarily complicated and expensive.

I use a bimetal thermal switch in series with the external blower motor.
Mount this switch in the exhaust airflow from the traction motor. Put a
resistor across the switch so the blower runs at low speed when the motor is
cool, and high speed when the air gets hot and the thermal switch closes.


--
Those who say it cannot be done should not interrupt the one who is
doing it. -- Chinese proverb
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart-at-earthlink.net

_______________________________________________
| Moratorium on drag racing discussion is in effect.
| Please take those discussions elsewhere. Thanks.
|
| REPLYING: address your message to [email protected] only.
| Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
| UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
| OTHER HELP: http://evdl.org/help/
| CONFIGURE: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev

_______________________________________________
| Moratorium on drag racing discussion is in effect.
| Please take those discussions elsewhere. Thanks.
|
| REPLYING: address your message to [email protected] only.
| Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
| UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
| OTHER HELP: http://evdl.org/help/
| CONFIGURE: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev


----------

