# Starting 2000 Insight Conversion



## dougingraham (Jul 26, 2011)

McRat said:


> I will use the 16.5 kWh 360vdc LiPo array from a Chevy Volt. This is a proven 150HP lightweight array.


360vdc is too high for a Soliton. They top out at 340. The Volt pack is heavy at 435 lbs. Not what you want for a race car. I am also guessing that it wont do 1000 amps as the max power of 111kw (149 HP) at 360 volts means a max current of 308 amps. Also the pack is only 45AH so to get 1000 amps would mean a 22C discharge rate. While not impossible would probably make for a short battery life.



McRat said:


> I want 150HP.
> I want J1772 charging.
> RWD or AWD (dual motor).
> 50/50 weight balance.
> ...


150HP = 112kw into the motor would be 1000 amps at 112 volts or 288 volts at 389 amps. But you probably want WHP so you need to almost double that due to the losses in the controller/motor/drivetrain. This means 1000 amps at 224 volts into the motor (224kw). WarP 11HV would do this. You want the 1000 amps for the torque.

J1772 is easy.
Lots of work to do AWD or RWD on an Insight. Aren't they FWD originally?
50/50 is just a matter of putting the batteries in the right place.
Street Legal is up to you. Making sure all the stuff works and passes inspection if you have that where you are.
Water cool the controller. Air cool the motor. Unless you beat the batteries up they won't need cooling.



McRat said:


> Don't need regen, would be nice, but not necessary.
> For 150HP, is AC or DC going to be cheaper? Lighter?
> What controller and motors are going to git-er-dun?
> 
> ...


You can get regen if you go AC. Impractical with DC.

You can do a dual AC-35 setup for around $9000 I think. It dyno tested at 177 ft-lb and 165 HP. But the nominal voltage is 144 so you need a max battery voltage of about 163 so volt pack wont work without a lot of rework and it needs 1000 amps to get this so again The Volt pack is not adequate.

For less money get a WarP 11HV and a Soliton 1. Should be less than $6000. Peak input power to the motor with this setup would be 288kw (386 HP) and you will get about 70% of that out of it (202kw or 270 HP). Probably lose another 10% in the transmission/differential dropping it to a WHP of around 243. This motor has a lot more torque than the AC system. At 1000 amps it should have around 300 ft-lb.

What you choose for a pack is going to determine limitations on power output. I don't think the Volt pack is appropriate for this application. I would look at the Enerdel modules or the ones John Metric is using in his drag car. EVTV also has some cells that would be suitable for this application called LY50AH. For the Dual AC-35 setup you would want 44 of these in series which would give a pack of 8.14kwh weighing about 131 lbs. To power the WarP 11HV adequately at the much higher power levels would want about 80 cells in series giving a pack of 14.8kwh at a weight of 238 lbs.


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## McRat (Jul 10, 2012)

Thanks!

The Volt array can be had for under $2500, no core. Plus I have other reasons for using it.

It's in 3 pcs, with integral water-cooling.

450lb isn't too heavy for a 16.5 kWh car battery, nor is $2500 expensive.

What kind of controller will handle 360vdc (410 peak) for 1 minute? (Actually less, you aren't WOT all the time)

Looks like the Controller will be the 3rd purchase, and it will determine the motor.

I assume I'm going to over-volt whatever I use while racing.

Speeds are 0-70, punch from 15-45mph is the serious area.

RWD is significant for handling.


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## dougingraham (Jul 26, 2011)

McRat said:


> The Volt array can be had for under $2500, no core.


You can't get it for that price. There is a thread about this in the battery/charger section.



McRat said:


> 450lb isn't heavy for a 16.5 kWh car battery, nor is $2500 expensive.


Unless you are going to daily drive it you dont need a pack nearly that large. My pack is 16.3kwh and weighs 357 lbs and cost $8000. In the summer I can't make it overheat so no cooling is needed. It does need heat when it is cold. $2500 is very inexpensive. I wish I could get it for that price but the only way would be buying a wrecked volt and parting it out while keeping the battery pack.



McRat said:


> What kind of controller will handle 360vdc (410 peak) for 1 minute? (Actually less, you aren't WOT all the time)


There might be a model of the Zilla that will do that for DC. Maybe the Rinehart for AC. A DMOC 645 might be a good match for that pack. The problem is the controller will not operate with too high of a voltage applied and if it goes above a critical threshold the magic smoke will leak out of the IGBT's.



McRat said:


> I assume I'm going to over-volt whatever I use while racing.
> 
> Speeds are 0-70, punch from 15-45mph is the serious area.


It would be more appropriate to say overamp. Stuff breaks pretty much instantly if you overvolt.

You are talking about several runs of around a minute each before recharging. You hardly need any kwh to do this. But you still need a battery of a certain size because you simply cant get the power you want out of a battery that is too small.

For a street pack on the AC-35x2 I mentioned before I think you could get away with 46 Grey CALB CA series cells of 100AH. Would be 14.7kwh and weigh about 350lbs. Cost around $7000 with shipping. This is at the bottom edge of what would be appropriate for the application.


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## McRat (Jul 10, 2012)

Hmmm... Interesting.

Back to drawing board. Haven't cut up the car yet. 

I'll use the Volt battery IF I can actually buy one.

I just bought my daughter a new Volt. There are certain things I can test on the battery life and voltages at an AutoX track.

A lot of the weight of the Volt battery is the packaging. IIRC, it's Lithium Manganese Carbon, like the expensive units. It will go over 10C discharge sustained if the Cadillac info is right. How far over? Who knows? 

It will recharge at 4C or more on a daily basis during regen.


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## rmay635703 (Oct 23, 2008)

McRat said:


> Hmmm... Interesting.
> 
> Back to drawing board. Haven't cut up the car yet.
> 
> ...


if you can get a volt battery let me know who/where/how, when i tried they said i had to have a volt that was out of warranty that also needed a battery, I had to have a special hybrid team come and install the battery and I had to pay for the team, diagnostics and the battery.



McRat said:


> Have a Honda Insight with a busted trans (cheap).


Might I recommend you use the stock IMA EV pancake, there have been many advances in getting more power out of the pancake and you can obviously stack the things.

Even better make your insight into a volt by placing a clutch between the iMA and the motor.

Good luck
Ryan


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## McRat (Jul 10, 2012)

Well, I'm going down to my local Chevy dealer tomorrow. They said I have to pay up front for it, it's special order. I'll drop off a check and see what happens.


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## rmay635703 (Oct 23, 2008)

McRat said:


> Well, I'm going down to my local Chevy dealer tomorrow. They said I have to pay up front for it, it's special order. I'll drop off a check and see what happens.


I guess a famous man once said, even though perpetual motion is impossible it doesn't mean we should quit trying.


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## McRat (Jul 10, 2012)

P/N for the 16.5 kWh (2013/2014) battery is 22856838, and lists it as Refurb. This is not unusual. This is how many if not all rebuildable PN's are listed. Turbos, injectors, starters, and injection pumps I've ordered have been listed that way, yet the part was new. 

Well, order is placed. May not run the full pack. AFAIK, it's 96 modules of 3P pouch cells separated by water plates in an T-case. I'll post pics when it arrives.


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## McRat (Jul 10, 2012)

For those without dealer connections, this is a good price for a shipped unit:

http://www.gmpartsdirect.com/result...ber=22856838&singlepart=1&partnumber=22856838


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## McRat (Jul 10, 2012)

DOH!!!

This is probably the cheapest shipped price. http://www.jegs.com/i/ACDelco/065/22856838/10002/-1

It's even a little cheaper than my local source since I had to pay sales tax.


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## samwichse (Jan 28, 2012)

I think that may be just for the casing and maybe the associated electronics.

I'd heard from a couple articles a replacement battery runs 8500-9000 for a Volt.


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## McRat (Jul 10, 2012)

Guess I'll find out.

If the Nissan Leaf battery is 24kWh and $5000, then $3000 for 16.5kWh Volt battery isn't ridiculous.


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## samwichse (Jan 28, 2012)

I think you are seriously underestimating the price of Li-ion batteries.

For example... 45 CALB 180ah @ $250 each is $11,250. Sure car manufacturers get them cheaper, but when have they ever sold parts anywhere close to at cost?


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## tylerwatts (Feb 9, 2012)

I suggest we give McRat benefit of the doubt and wait to hear how he gets on. No more speculation required. 

McRat have you had any build progress?


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## IamIan (Mar 29, 2009)

McRat said:


> Speeds are 0-70, punch from 15-45mph is the serious area.


If you pull off the 150HP (~112kw) with no major increase in weight ... your 0-70 might be under about ~7 Seconds ... and 15-45 might get under about ~3 Seconds... That is pretty peppy.


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## McRat (Jul 10, 2012)

tylerwatts said:


> I suggest we give McRat benefit of the doubt and wait to hear how he gets on. No more speculation required.
> 
> McRat have you had any build progress?


I've moved it out of storage, and into the workshop.


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## IamIan (Mar 29, 2009)

In case you haven't already.
You might also want to down load some of the technical manuals.
Although you'll be gutting the ICE and HEV parts ... I'm thinking the other parts like body work and such you will find useful.

Manuals

Also potentially useful

Link


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## rmay635703 (Oct 23, 2008)

IamIan said:


> Although you'll be gutting the ICE and HEV parts ... I'm thinking the other parts like body work and such you will find useful.
> 
> Link


I strongly recommend re-using the pancake if you can, you will end up with a lightweight 20kw motor (yes a few have gotten them that high without issue) 10kw continous per honda is very underrated.

In this paticular case you would just need the XMSN and the series DC motor would need mocked up against pancake motor off the insight to borrow off its support bearings.

The insight AC motor can withstand 300+ volts and indeed generates that much under specific circumstances. 

Having this motor could also gain you regen and a little extra power, no idea how much power the pancake could output at higher voltage using custom controls for "short" periods.

Also the DC-DC in the insight is KILLER and if he can get his battery pack voltage to fall within its specs he would have a cheap and very durable 175amp DC-DC without dropping a dime. And yes it will run stand alone. 

Also, I am hopefull GM doesn't cancel his order, in fact I would be delighted 

Good Luck
Ryan


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## MN Driver (Sep 29, 2009)

Alright, I suppose as an Insight owner who is converting my car too, its about time I chimed into this thread.

The IMA pancake isn't 10kw continuous. The car normally cuts back after about 5-10 seconds of maximum assist. On a 'continuous' basis, as in climbing a tall mountain, it will pull about 4-5kw out of the hybrid battery until it is depleted because the battery itself is rated for 30 amps, which doesn't take very long for a 144v 6.5Ah NiMh pack where the car uses under 4Ah of that capacity but the pack delivers an Ah less than that when pulling 30 amps from it so you get about 6 minutes at the most unless the voltage sags below 120v(and it does) and the car cuts back even more. If you provide it with the max the stock electronics can handle(220v max terminal voltage, not nominal) that's the only way you can really pull some power out of the stock electronics. The issue is mating the motors, they weren't designed for it and the two people who have tried haven't been able to finish the job. I'm also not sure how you could get the stock electronics to ignore that the is no engine involved and how to control them adequately with a throttle.

The IMA motor has no provisions for cooling, it sits there bolted to the hot engine. Yes, the motor has handled 20kw with modifications to the stock electronics of the car but I really don't think you'd want to pull 20kw for a very long time.
The motor, controller, battery, and charging ports from a crashed Leaf, iMiev, etc. would be more appropriate if you wanted to transplant but driving the car with 26 horsepower would be a bit of a joke. ...I digress because the OP wants AutoX performance, at least we could get him closer than 90kw Leaf or 20kw(short period) Honda IMA.

Good luck on the Volt battery, I've heard plenty of times that there are three modules in the car and that part number you were looking at is only one. I'm also not sure how well it will fit into the Insight, you'll need to modify it a bit to get it to fit.

150HP and J1772 are plenty possible.
RWD/AWD - You are not taking the easy route but if you know what you are doing have fun.
50/50 weight balance - This will also be a bit tough. Take a look at the door sill sticker for the GAWR for a 50/50 weight balance you'll be overloaded in the rear because you aren't going to be able to pull that much weight from the front without having an empty underhood area. ..if you have rear wheel drive, where's the battery going to go? I'm not seeing 50/50 distribution being an easy feat.
Street legal - Will you meet the 1025lbs rear GAWR?

"I'm thinking dual Netgain 9's, AWD, Solitron Jr?" - Do your homework with a tape measure. Where are you putting dual Netgain 9's? The only Netgain 9 with an aux shaft that Wayne could get into the front of the Insight he converted is a single Netgain Impulse 9. Not sure what you can do in the back but if you are doing some AWD thing you are going to make this car way too heavy because these motors aren't light relative to the car. A Warp 9 weighs more than the stock engine.

Even with all that said, this car doesn't have that great of handling, the suspension will need help and the suspension isn't very compatible with other vehicles other than the rear springs of a Daewoo Matiz.


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## IamIan (Mar 29, 2009)

I didn't see this listed above yet.

I doubt it is anything but over the top expensive ... but sense lighter was asked about ... for the best power to weight ratio to give the lightest motor for these power levels is likely to be an EMRAX.

Although price alone is likely enough reason to rule them out ... their out-runner design (exterior spins not inside shaft) , will also make fabrication more difficult.

The 228 current product up to 8.4kw/kg.
AirCooled is 11.9kg
Up to 100kw (~134HP) peak ... 40kw (~53HP) Continuous.
LiquidCooled is 12.2kg
Up to 100kw (~134HP) peak ... 50kw (~67HP) Continuous.

But closer to the OP posted goal might be the pending new 268 if all goes as planed , they will release it this February 2014 (next moth)... up to 8.9kw/kg
Air Cooled 17.9kg
Up to 160kw (~214HP) peak ... 80kw (~107HP) Continuous.
LiquidCooled 18.2kg
Up to 160kw (~214HP) peak ... 90kw (~120HP) Continuous.


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## McRat (Jul 10, 2012)

MN Driver said:


> Alright, I suppose as an Insight owner who is converting my car too, its about time I chimed into this thread.
> 
> The IMA pancake isn't 10kw continuous. The car normally cuts back after about 5-10 seconds of maximum assist. On a 'continuous' basis, as in climbing a tall mountain, it will pull about 4-5kw out of the hybrid battery until it is depleted because the battery itself is rated for 30 amps, which doesn't take very long for a 144v 6.5Ah NiMh pack where the car uses under 4Ah of that capacity but the pack delivers an Ah less than that when pulling 30 amps from it so you get about 6 minutes at the most unless the voltage sags below 120v(and it does) and the car cuts back even more. If you provide it with the max the stock electronics can handle(220v max terminal voltage, not nominal) that's the only way you can really pull some power out of the stock electronics. The issue is mating the motors, they weren't designed for it and the two people who have tried haven't been able to finish the job. I'm also not sure how you could get the stock electronics to ignore that the is no engine involved and how to control them adequately with a throttle.
> 
> ...


Thanks! Yes, I need to think a lot more about which parts it needs.


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## McRat (Jul 10, 2012)

IamIan said:


> I didn't see this listed above yet.
> 
> I doubt it is anything but over the top expensive ... but sense lighter was asked about ... for the best power to weight ratio to give the lightest motor for these power levels is likely to be an EMRAX.
> 
> ...


WOW!!

The numbers look good. Syncronized and locked dual 228 would be much lighter than any other option to get the 110kW peak power or run a single 268.


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## rmay635703 (Oct 23, 2008)

MN Driver said:


> Alright, I suppose as an Insight owner who is converting my car too, its about time I chimed into this thread.
> 
> The IMA pancake isn't 10kw continuous. The car normally cuts back after about 5-10 seconds of maximum assist. On a 'continuous' basis, as in climbing a tall mountain, it will pull about 4-5kw out of the hybrid battery until it is depleted because the battery itself is rated for 30 amps,
> 
> ...


I believe there are 2 main reasons to save the pancake.
1. Its free
2. It could provide regen when mated between a series wound motor and the transmission.

In other words It could be used nearly as designed borrowing the support bearings off a series wound motor instead of a gasser.

He would need to use an appropriate controller and toss the insight electronics, it would still add 10-20kw of boost in addition to the series motor, regen and it doesn't weigh a ton.

the only insight device I think would be a true shame to toss is the DC-DC, although it does weigh a fair amount it also provides a real usable amount of regulated 12v power off a very wide voltage range.

Also I might be interested if he plans on tossing out the xmsn, motor, etc out of the insight as I would like to drop it into a daihatsu varient I have laying around begging for an insight motor 

Cheers
Ryan


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## dtbaker (Jan 5, 2008)

dougingraham said:


> You hardly need any kwh to do this. But you still need a battery of a certain size because you simply cant get the power you want out of a battery that is too small.
> CALB CA series cells of 100AH.


the
'new CALBs' are supposed to handle 10C pulls without too much damage shortening their life.... but 100ah cells are still going to add significant weight where best performance in autoX is minimizing weight. If you are serious about it, you are going to end up with high output (expensive) pouch cells like the kokems or something the racers use because you can hammer them. Open pouches can be cooled better than closed prismatics, but are more labor intensive to build with.

if you use a 1000a controller, like a zilla, or go crazy with a 2k zilla or soliton shiva, you need crazy batteries to kick out the amps that tend to be expensive, but thats what racing is all about.....


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## MN Driver (Sep 29, 2009)

I think the best plan for using CALBs in this car is to go with as many 60Ah cells as your controller can support. 96 LiFePO4 cells is the maximum number that Evnetics recommends. I'm personally putting in 100 and charging at a slightly lower voltage. You won't be able to push the full pack voltage through a Netgain so you'll still get 1000 amps to a point. ..either that or go with one of the Kostov HV motors, which is what I'm going to do using the Soliton Jr(600 amps peak). I'm not exactly building a racing vehicle though but I think that for an 1800 pound pre-conversion that it will be plenty fast.


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## McRat (Jul 10, 2012)

Well, I tried 3 different sources, and I can't buy a new Volt battery.

So, on to the used market.


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## rmay635703 (Oct 23, 2008)

McRat said:


> Well, I tried 3 different sources, and I can't buy a new Volt battery.
> 
> So, on to the used market.





rmay635703 said:


> I guess a famous man once said, even though perpetual motion is impossible it doesn't mean we should quit trying.


This is not surprizing. Now the issue you will run into is that leaf batteries are easy to find, volt batteries are much less common, you might be waiting a while or need to buy salvage.


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## Nuts&Volts (Dec 20, 2011)

I'd suggest some Enerdel cells. They offer very good performance and can be had on the cheap. You should hit up Frodus on this forum if you're interested. Just shoot him a PM, good guy to work with.

I am actually contemplating converting an Insight myself with Enerdel or Leaf cells. Still in the planning and saving phase. What's nice is that the Enerdel cells are new and you can get them in a fully assembled OEM level pack if you'd like. They also should have better cycle life due to the chemistry of them. 

Oh and my other component choices at the moment are a Rinehart PM100 and an Emrax. Both because I have a Rinehart on hand and because I have experience with an Emrax in a motorcycle application. 

Kyle


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## McRat (Jul 10, 2012)

Well, in theory I found a 16.0 KWh Volt battery assy for $2000.

I want the Volt packs due to the high discharge rate (10C) and lifespan.

The Volt battery assy does weigh 435lb, however nearly half of that is armor and water cooling plate.

If it arrive I will post a video of the disassemble.

I will need to do a dyno test of a single cell to find out what the true discharge rate is. I'm willing to destroy a few cells to find out.


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## McRat (Jul 10, 2012)

The used 2012 Volt battery appears to be in excellent shape.

See Battery area for video.


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## rmay635703 (Oct 23, 2008)

McRat said:


> The used 2012 Volt battery appears to be in excellent shape.
> 
> See Battery area for video.


If you and lipolou get the volt pack chargable with the can and onboard BMS working in the existing package be sure to show us how

(I have been very tempted for a while) But if I could charge/discharge safely I would do it in a heartbeat.


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## McRat (Jul 10, 2012)

rmay635703 said:


> If you and lipolou get the volt pack chargable with the can and onboard BMS working in the existing package be sure to show us how
> 
> (I have been very tempted for a while) But if I could charge/discharge safely I would do it in a heartbeat.


The BMS computers might be "free-standing" There are 4 of them on the battery.

I'll take a look at the GM wiring and see what I can see.


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## McRat (Jul 10, 2012)

This is the link to basic info for the battery:

https://docs.google.com/file/d/0BwHvhEbCHHEleUp3TUMxOUwzdmM/edit

It's > 4vdc per cell when at normal charged level.


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