# Re: [EVDL] www.evalbum.com/1440 = Don't reject NEV till youdriveone !!!



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] www.evalbum.com/1440 = Don't reject NEV till youdriveone !!!*

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Randy Kramer" <[email protected]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, February 02, 2009 3:28 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] www.evalbum.com/1440 = Don't reject NEV till youdriveone 
!!!




> > On Sunday 01 February 2009 08:17 pm, Joseph Ashwood wrote:
> >> It has long been established that driving the vehicle in the way the
> > vehicle
> >> was designed to be driven delivers the best fuel economy.
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] www.evalbum.com/1440 = Don't reject NEV till youdriveone !!!*

Folks, this thread has wandered off topic (a discussion of ICE fuel 
efficiency). Either bring it back on track or end it, please.

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] www.evalbum.com/1440 = Don't reject NEV till youdriveone !!!*

No problem, just look before crossing and you're fine.
No matter if you are in a NEV, a Honda 600, on a bicycle,
scooter, motorcycle, or using your primary mode of 
transportation (walking, for humans).
When driving a Hummer or steamroller you do not
need to look for your own safety when crossing.

So what does your statement prove?
We all should be driving logging trucks?

Let's please go back to discussing how to get more EVs
on the road instead of creating all this noise that
serves no purpose.

Some people want to drive a NEV because it suits their
needs and they are not scared into a SUV by advertising FUD.

Others will convert a SUV or truck for a variety of reasons.
Again others will consider an electric bicycle, scooter or
motorcycle their preferred means of transport.
Let's accept that there are different people with different
needs and desires on this world and we do not all have to
conform to what a few people consider their ideal.

Personally I think that most people in the USA drive 
too large vehicles and use them too often for their 
own good. Apparently I am not the only one, see for
example "Over the Hedge".

But only years after all the misleading advertising 
has been stopped, will the opinion of the people
change - or if there is an emergency.
We have seen the start of one, fuel prices over $4/gal
and rising, but a recession extinguised that fire so
it will take more time to sway the public opinion.

Regarding misleading advertising: I consider it
borderline criminal if car companies push SUVs as
the most safe choice for families, while statistics
of crashes prove that they are among the most 
dangerous vehicles on the road, they just *look* safe.
I don't think a job in an automotive advertising 
company would be a good position for me, as I tend
to wanna tell the truth.
Luckily EVs start to return to the spotlight, after
being forcefully removed about 10 years ago.
I hope and pray that this time better decisions are
taken without opening bottomless pits like the
Hydrogen Highway or the proven energy inefficient 
Fool Cells, so let's not go there and focus on how
to get EVs on the road.

Soapbox off now.

Cor van de Water
Director HW & Systems Architecture Group
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
Email: [email protected] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [email protected]
Tel: +1 408 383 7626 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Tel: +91 (040)23117400 x203 XoIP: +31877841130

Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail.
-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On
Behalf Of Roger Heuckeroth
Sent: Monday, February 02, 2009 11:14 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] www.evalbum.com/1440 = Don't reject NEV till
youdriveone !!!

If a NEV is only safe at 25 or 30 MPH what happens with your T-boned 
at the intersection by a teenager driving his parents Expedition going 
45 in a 30. Well lets see I'm dead, but it only cost me 2 cents per 
mile to get there. I just don't get it why would you buy an OKA or 
Honda 600 or any vehicle that will fold up in an accident if its 
likely to become your coffin. Kind of the same reason I don't drive a 
motorcycle. Do you all remember that NEV that was creamed by the 
logging truck?




> [email protected] wrote:
> 
> > SAFETY FIRST
> >
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] www.evalbum.com/1440 = Don't reject NEV till youdriveone !!!*

Exactly which kind of vehicle stands a chance against a fully loaded
logging truck?

When I was growing up in Panama City, FL, we had a T-bone collision with
a school bus (I remember it being "empty", but that may just be wishful
hindsight). You would think that a school bus would be quite durable,
but the vehicle that T-boned it was a full concrete truck; both were
incredibly messed up.

That said, bigger isn't necessarily better; look at how the Smart cars
redistribute the forces all around the driver (a frontal impact actually
destroys the trunk area). Look also at the 60's solid cars that didn't
absorb anything; they were mostly intact after a collision, but the
occupants didn't like instantaneous deceleration.

I'd be interested to see a Aptera or an OKA in a crash test just to see
how it falls apart to protect the occupants.

Now this is turning more toward the politics side, but I figure that the
majority of the reasons for needing a NEV is because we're goofy with a
whole lot of regulations (see the older Lexan bit, the requirement to
use a shoulder belt instead of a 5 point harness, etc). If it were all
based on "pass this crash test", "pass this flex test" I would probably
have less of an axe to grind about regulations. I just hate mandated
mediocrity.

Then again, there are *always* attempts to game the system, see what
happened with brake lines: http://www.nsxprime.com/wiki/Brake_Lines (and
note that they mandated an inferior connector due to it's tamper
resistance and some weird all-caps lettering code that no one needs).

/political rant off/
-Thor Johnson


-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On
Behalf Of Roger Heuckeroth
Sent: Monday, February 02, 2009 12:44 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] www.evalbum.com/1440 = Don't reject NEV till
youdriveone !!!

If a NEV is only safe at 25 or 30 MPH what happens with your T-boned 
at the intersection by a teenager driving his parents Expedition going 
45 in a 30. Well lets see I'm dead, but it only cost me 2 cents per 
mile to get there. I just don't get it why would you buy an OKA or 
Honda 600 or any vehicle that will fold up in an accident if its 
likely to become your coffin. Kind of the same reason I don't drive a 
motorcycle. Do you all remember that NEV that was creamed by the 
logging truck?




> [email protected] wrote:
> 
> > SAFETY FIRST
> >
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] www.evalbum.com/1440 = Don't reject NEV till youdriveone !!!*

You can see OKA crash test at 45 MPH (US test is only 30 full frontal) the EU is 60% off set

Go on U-tube and just put in OKA crash test - here are several it is all in Russian however.

The car taht gets the least damage is the version that US NEV is based on, it has extra reinforcements in the body, not required by FMVSS #500 but we put them in, as I want to be safe myself !




-----Original Message-----
From: Thor Johnson <[email protected]>
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <[email protected]>
Sent: Mon, 2 Feb 2009 11:40 am
Subject: Re: [EVDL] www.evalbum.com/1440 = Don't reject NEV till youdriveone !!!



Exactly which kind of vehicle stands a chance against a fully loaded
logging truck?

When I was growing up in Panama City, FL, we had a T-bone collision with
a school bus (I remember it being "empty", but that may just be wishful
hindsight). You would think that a school bus would be quite durable,
but the vehicle that T-boned it was a full concrete truck; both were
incredibly messed up.

That said, bigger isn't necessarily better; look at how the Smart cars
redistribute the forces all around the driver (a frontal impact actually
destroys the trunk area). Look also at the 60's solid cars that didn't
absorb anything; they were mostly intact after a collision, but the
occupants didn't like instantaneous deceleration.

I'd be interested to see a Aptera or an OKA in a crash test just to see
how it falls apart to protect the occupants.

Now this is turning more toward the politics side, but I figure that the
majority of the reasons for needing a NEV is because we're goofy with a
whole lot of regulations (see the older Lexan bit, the requirement to
use a shoulder belt instead of a 5 point harness, etc). If it were all
based on "pass this crash test", "pass this flex test" I would probably
have less of an axe to grind about regulations. I just hate mandated
mediocrity.

Then again, there are *always* attempts to game the system, see what
happened with brake lines: http://www.nsxprime.com/wiki/Brake_Lines (and
note that they mandated an inferior connector due to it's tamper
resistance and some weird all-caps lettering code that no one needs).

/political rant off/
-Thor Johnson


-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On
Behalf Of Roger Heuckeroth
Sent: Monday, February 02, 2009 12:44 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] www.evalbum.com/1440 = Don't reject NEV till
youdriveone !!!

If a NEV is only safe at 25 or 30 MPH what happens with your T-boned 
at the intersection by a teenager driving his parents Expedition going 
45 in a 30. Wel
l lets see I'm dead, but it only cost me 2 cents per 
mile to get there. I just don't get it why would you buy an OKA or 
Honda 600 or any vehicle that will fold up in an accident if its 
likely to become your coffin. Kind of the same reason I don't drive a 
motorcycle. Do you all remember that NEV that was creamed by the 
logging truck?




> [email protected] wrote:
> 
> > SAFETY FIRST
> >
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] www.evalbum.com/1440 = Don't reject NEV till youdriveone !!!*



> [email protected] wrote:
> > The car taht gets the least damage is the version that US NEV is based on, it has extra reinforcements in the body, not required by FMVSS #500 but we put them in, as I want to be safe myself !
> >
> 
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] www.evalbum.com/1440 = Don't reject NEV till youdriveone !!!*

Did you look at the videos? The difference between the one that had 
the most damage and the one that had the least is like the difference 
between instant death, and being in a coma before dying. Both 
versions are death traps. The steering wheel shoots up to meet the 
drivers face in both cases. No airbags. In one the whole passenger 
compartment becomes part of the crumple zone. In the other not quite 
as bad, but still deformed.

This guy is so concerned that you should have the right in America to 
buy and drive one of these death traps. What a patriot! Hope someone 
sue him for all he's worth.




> John G. Lussmyer wrote:
> 
> > [email protected] wrote:
> >> The car taht gets the least damage is the version that US NEV is
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] www.evalbum.com/1440 = Don't reject NEV till youdriveone !!!*

These clips are pretty harrowing to watch. Certainly many other modern 
small cars fare far better in crash testing than the Oka, but it's important 
to remember that all modern vehicles' crash zones are carefully engineered 
as a system to provide passenger protection. When we convert these cars to 
EVs, we drastically change the geometry at both front and rear. Without 
crash testing of the conversions, there's no way we can claim that our 
conversions provide the level of passenger protection that the original 
vehicles do.

I don't understand Russian, but it seems pretty clear from the presentation 
of the Lada Oka crash test clip that the underhood spare tire placement was 
responsible for a some of the passenger compartment deformation and the 
resulting driver injury. It's hard to imagine that batteries - regardless 
of chemistry - placed similarly would be much less of a hazard in a crash.

This is not to discourage anyone from building an EV conversion, just to 
remind all that our modifications on these vehicles may have unpredictable 
effects, and that most of us don't have the means to calculate those 
effects. Anyone who does conversions for a living would be well advised to 
maintain pretty darn good liability insurance!

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
EVDL Information: http://www.evdl.org/help/
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = 
Note: mail sent to "evpost" or "etpost" addresses will not 
reach me. To send a private message, please obtain my 
email address from the webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ .
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =


_______________________________________________
General EVDL support: http://evdl.org/help/
Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
Archives: http://evdl.org/archive/
Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] www.evalbum.com/1440 = Don't reject NEV till youdriveone !!!*

You guys have wandered into lala land from which there is no return on this
topic.

First, if I wanted to be SAFE, I'd drive my Esalade. I did some research a
year ago regarding drinking and driving and all the myths that have grown up
over this very wierd situation. As it turns out, drunks are no more likely
to have an accident than anyone else, and indeed, however MADD moms may be,
the drunk is in more danger from the teen driver than the teen driver is
from him. 

But along the way, prowling through tons of data at the NHTSA database, it
did catch my eye that there is an unbelievably strong correlation between
vehicle size and mass and fatalities. Indeed, of safety is your concern,
you DO want to be in a logging truck. It was so strong a correlation, I
bought my wife an Escalade ESV the same week.

A quick review of EVALBUM would lead me to believe that smaller, lighter
cars are favored for EV use. So I can't imagine safety being a plausible
factor in a discussion of NEV's by people who like to build EVs.

Beyond that, I find the EVer than thou posturing a bit much. I have built
an EV, we're about to start on a second one. But I have THREE of the GEMs
and I just love em. All are the pickup truck/flatbed model, two shorties
and a longbed. I put diamond plate toolboxes on the back which allows me to
throw stuff in them and lock it up. And in good weather, these are just the
thing for banging around town.

There are a couple of heroic advantages. In addition to being electric,
here in Missouri they are classified as a low speed vehicle. We do not have
to LICENSE low speed vehicles at all here. Nothing. They are street legal
anywhere in the state on roads with a posted speed limit of 35 mph or less
with no license plate, no safety inspection, no emissions test, etc. 
Individual towns MAY limit them if they like.

I live in Cape Girardeau, a small town of 35,000 about 100 miles south of
St. Louis on the Mississippi. Virtually the entire town is 35 mph or less. 
I doubt we have 5 miles of 45 mph roads aside from the Interstate. 

So I can go almost anywhere. I have a little larger motors, have jazzed up
the wheels and steering wheels and so forth. I have one tricked out with
160 Ah Thundersky's - pretty good range there. And they make a marvelous
test bed for trying out battery/ultracap combinations etc.

In short, I think NEVs may be more viable than EVs in some areas of the
country. In St. Louis or Dallas or Denver, this just doesn't work very
well. But in small town mid-America, it works very well.

They are no fun in cold weather. Kind of a fair weather vehicle. But I
have replaced a LOT of miles locally by jumping in the GEM instead of the
Escalade. Very economical and if you use the stock batteries and chargers,
they are pretty much foolproof. And they ARE cheap. THey run $7000-$8000
brand new for the basic models. They're NOT really a car, and they're NOT
really a golf cart. But they sure are easy to jump into and run up to the
hardware store for something. I love em.

And I don't think they have an averse affect on the "selling" of the EV
message at all. Mine get CONSTANT comment and all favorable - usually of
the "where do I get one" type.

And that's a problem. GEM is owned by Chrysler. There are some Chrysler
dealers who ostensibly carry them, but indeed they don't actually. You an
order through them, but they stock nothing or near nothing because they
don't believe they'll sell. We actually talked to them about becoming a
dealer here in Cape. They didn't really tell us no...but they didn't really
do anything either. I got the idea that they really are supposed to work
through the Chrysler dealers, who don't want em.

So the belief system is actually not there internally. I believe in them. 
Chrysler doesn't. I'm continually stopped by people who don't really have a
lot of questions about it. They want one. Deer hunters are particularly
anxious. 

It is again part and parcel to your ongoing theme, people who encounter
electric vehicles want electric vehicles. The apathy of the population is
simply a lack of famiiliarity. They do understand golf carts. And a street
legal golf cart has appeal.

Tomberlin is ostensibly working on essentially a Hummer-like NEV. It's
called the Anvil and I want one. But they never do quite get there with
it. I've actually thought about doing a design and making a GEM on steroids
- again a little hauler with roomy seats, four wheel disk, about a 10 HP
motor, and flat bed two seat configuration. But I belong in manufacturing
to about the same degree as I need more daughters.

In any event, I strongly disagree that NEVs do anything to hamper the spread
of EVism. And I find the EV chauvinism a little comical. And the SAFETY
issue, give me a break. Don't hit anything. ANd don't let anything hit
you.

All that said, I don't find the OKA appealing. It is actually an NEV trying
to BE a car. One of the very subtle, but to me very important advantages of
the GEM is that it is NOT tiny and enclosed. For some reason, getting into
it is just a lot less work than getting into a car. You more like "hop on"
or "step in" or something. It's hard to describe. But like a golf cart,
you can get in and get out effortlessly. And it makes it easier to
contemplate going on an errand. I can just hop on the pony and go. 
Climbing into the Escalade, by comparison, seems to be a big production. I
know this sounds goofy, but it is very real.

I love NEVs. I love it that I don't have to license them here. 

Jack Rickard
-- 
View this message in context: http://www.nabble.com/Honda-600%27s-more-info.-tp21672996p21813564.html
Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

_______________________________________________
General EVDL support: http://evdl.org/help/
Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
Archives: http://evdl.org/archive/
Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] www.evalbum.com/1440 = Don't reject NEV till youdriveone !!!*

You guys have wandered into lala land from which there is no return on this
topic.

First, if I wanted to be SAFE, I'd drive my Esalade. I did some research a
year ago regarding drinking and driving and all the myths that have grown up
over this very wierd situation. As it turns out, drunks are no more likely
to have an accident than anyone else, and indeed, however MADD moms may be,
the drunk is in more danger from the teen driver than the teen driver is
from him. 

But along the way, prowling through tons of data at the NHTSA database, it
did catch my eye that there is an unbelievably strong correlation between
vehicle size and mass and fatalities. Indeed, of safety is your concern,
you DO want to be in a logging truck. It was so strong a correlation, I
bought my wife an Escalade ESV the same week.

A quick review of EVALBUM would lead me to believe that smaller, lighter
cars are favored for EV use. So I can't imagine safety being a plausible
factor in a discussion of NEV's by people who like to build EVs.

Beyond that, I find the EVer than thou posturing a bit much. I have built
an EV, we're about to start on a second one. But I have THREE of the GEMs
and I just love em. All are the pickup truck/flatbed model, two shorties
and a longbed. I put diamond plate toolboxes on the back which allows me to
throw stuff in them and lock it up. And in good weather, these are just the
thing for banging around town.

There are a couple of heroic advantages. In addition to being electric,
here in Missouri they are classified as a low speed vehicle. We do not have
to LICENSE low speed vehicles at all here. Nothing. They are street legal
anywhere in the state on roads with a posted speed limit of 35 mph or less
with no license plate, no safety inspection, no emissions test, etc. 
Individual towns MAY limit them if they like.

I live in Cape Girardeau, a small town of 35,000 about 100 miles south of
St. Louis on the Mississippi. Virtually the entire town is 35 mph or less. 
I doubt we have 5 miles of 45 mph roads aside from the Interstate. 

So I can go almost anywhere. I have a little larger motors, have jazzed up
the wheels and steering wheels and so forth. I have one tricked out with
160 Ah Thundersky's - pretty good range there. And they make a marvelous
test bed for trying out battery/ultracap combinations etc.

In short, I think NEVs may be more viable than EVs in some areas of the
country. In St. Louis or Dallas or Denver, this just doesn't work very
well. But in small town mid-America, it works very well.

They are no fun in cold weather. Kind of a fair weather vehicle. But I
have replaced a LOT of miles locally by jumping in the GEM instead of the
Escalade. Very economical and if you use the stock batteries and chargers,
they are pretty much foolproof. And they ARE cheap. THey run $7000-$8000
brand new for the basic models. They're NOT really a car, and they're NOT
really a golf cart. But they sure are easy to jump into and run up to the
hardware store for something. I love em.

And I don't think they have an averse affect on the "selling" of the EV
message at all. Mine get CONSTANT comment and all favorable - usually of
the "where do I get one" type.

And that's a problem. GEM is owned by Chrysler. There are some Chrysler
dealers who ostensibly carry them, but indeed they don't actually. You an
order through them, but they stock nothing or near nothing because they
don't believe they'll sell. We actually talked to them about becoming a
dealer here in Cape. They didn't really tell us no...but they didn't really
do anything either. I got the idea that they really are supposed to work
through the Chrysler dealers, who don't want em.

So the belief system is actually not there internally. I believe in them. 
Chrysler doesn't. I'm continually stopped by people who don't really have a
lot of questions about it. They want one. Deer hunters are particularly
anxious. 

It is again part and parcel to your ongoing theme, people who encounter
electric vehicles want electric vehicles. The apathy of the population is
simply a lack of famiiliarity. They do understand golf carts. And a street
legal golf cart has appeal.

Tomberlin is ostensibly working on essentially a Hummer-like NEV. It's
called the Anvil and I want one. But they never do quite get there with
it. I've actually thought about doing a design and making a GEM on steroids
- again a little hauler with roomy seats, four wheel disk, about a 10 HP
motor, and flat bed two seat configuration. But I belong in manufacturing
to about the same degree as I need more daughters.

In any event, I strongly disagree that NEVs do anything to hamper the spread
of EVism. And I find the EV chauvinism a little comical. And the SAFETY
issue, give me a break. Don't hit anything. ANd don't let anything hit
you.

All that said, I don't find the OKA appealing. It is actually an NEV trying
to BE a car. One of the very subtle, but to me very important advantages of
the GEM is that it is NOT tiny and enclosed. For some reason, getting into
it is just a lot less work than getting into a car. You more like "hop on"
or "step in" or something. It's hard to describe. But like a golf cart,
you can get in and get out effortlessly. And it makes it easier to
contemplate going on an errand. I can just hop on the pony and go. 
Climbing into the Escalade, by comparison, seems to be a big production. I
know this sounds goofy, but it is very real.

I love NEVs. I love it that I don't have to license them here. And I
agree, don't reject the til you drive one.

Jack Rickard
-- 
View this message in context: http://www.nabble.com/Honda-600%27s-more-info.-tp21672996p21813566.html
Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

_______________________________________________
General EVDL support: http://evdl.org/help/
Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
Archives: http://evdl.org/archive/
Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] www.evalbum.com/1440 = Don't reject NEV till youdriveone !!!*

You guys have wandered into lala land from which there is no return on this
topic.

First, if I wanted to be SAFE, I'd drive my Esalade. I did some research a
year ago regarding drinking and driving and all the myths that have grown up
over this very wierd situation. As it turns out, drunks are no more likely
to have an accident than anyone else, and indeed, however MADD moms may be,
the drunk is in more danger from the teen driver than the teen driver is
from him. 

But along the way, prowling through tons of data at the NHTSA database, it
did catch my eye that there is an unbelievably strong correlation between
vehicle size and mass and fatalities. Indeed, of safety is your concern,
you DO want to be in a logging truck. It was so strong a correlation, I
bought my wife an Escalade ESV the same week.

A quick review of EVALBUM would lead me to believe that smaller, lighter
cars are favored for EV use. So I can't imagine safety being a plausible
factor in a discussion of NEV's by people who like to build EVs.

Beyond that, I find the EVer than thou posturing a bit much. I have built
an EV, we're about to start on a second one. But I have THREE of the GEMs
and I just love em. All are the pickup truck/flatbed model, two shorties
and a longbed. I put diamond plate toolboxes on the back which allows me to
throw stuff in them and lock it up. And in good weather, these are just the
thing for banging around town.

There are a couple of heroic advantages. In addition to being electric,
here in Missouri they are classified as a low speed vehicle. We do not have
to LICENSE low speed vehicles at all here. Nothing. They are street legal
anywhere in the state on roads with a posted speed limit of 35 mph or less
with no license plate, no safety inspection, no emissions test, etc. 
Individual towns MAY limit them if they like.

I live in Cape Girardeau, a small town of 35,000 about 100 miles south of
St. Louis on the Mississippi. Virtually the entire town is 35 mph or less. 
I doubt we have 5 miles of 45 mph roads aside from the Interstate. 

So I can go almost anywhere. I have a little larger motors, have jazzed up
the wheels and steering wheels and so forth. I have one tricked out with
160 Ah Thundersky's - pretty good range there. And they make a marvelous
test bed for trying out battery/ultracap combinations etc.

In short, I think NEVs may be more viable than EVs in some areas of the
country. In St. Louis or Dallas or Denver, this just doesn't work very
well. But in small town mid-America, it works very well.

They are no fun in cold weather. Kind of a fair weather vehicle. But I
have replaced a LOT of miles locally by jumping in the GEM instead of the
Escalade. Very economical and if you use the stock batteries and chargers,
they are pretty much foolproof. And they ARE cheap. THey run $7000-$8000
brand new for the basic models. They're NOT really a car, and they're NOT
really a golf cart. But they sure are easy to jump into and run up to the
hardware store for something. I love em.

And I don't think they have an averse affect on the "selling" of the EV
message at all. Mine get CONSTANT comment and all favorable - usually of
the "where do I get one" type.

And that's a problem. GEM is owned by Chrysler. There are some Chrysler
dealers who ostensibly carry them, but indeed they don't actually. You an
order through them, but they stock nothing or near nothing because they
don't believe they'll sell. We actually talked to them about becoming a
dealer here in Cape. They didn't really tell us no...but they didn't really
do anything either. I got the idea that they really are supposed to work
through the Chrysler dealers, who don't want em.

So the belief system is actually not there internally. I believe in them. 
Chrysler doesn't. I'm continually stopped by people who don't really have a
lot of questions about it. They want one. Deer hunters are particularly
anxious. 

It is again part and parcel to your ongoing theme, people who encounter
electric vehicles want electric vehicles. The apathy of the population is
simply a lack of famiiliarity. They do understand golf carts. And a street
legal golf cart has appeal.

Tomberlin is ostensibly working on essentially a Hummer-like NEV. It's
called the Anvil and I want one. But they never do quite get there with
it. I've actually thought about doing a design and making a GEM on steroids
- again a little hauler with roomy seats, four wheel disk, about a 10 HP
motor, and flat bed two seat configuration. But I belong in manufacturing
to about the same degree as I need more daughters.

In any event, I strongly disagree that NEVs do anything to hamper the spread
of EVism. And I find the EV chauvinism a little comical. And the SAFETY
issue, give me a break. Don't hit anything. ANd don't let anything hit
you.

All that said, I don't find the OKA appealing. It is actually an NEV trying
to BE a car. One of the very subtle, but to me very important advantages of
the GEM is that it is NOT tiny and enclosed. For some reason, getting into
it is just a lot less work than getting into a car. You more like "hop on"
or "step in" or something. It's hard to describe. But like a golf cart,
you can get in and get out effortlessly. And it makes it easier to
contemplate going on an errand. I can just hop on the pony and go. 
Climbing into the Escalade, by comparison, seems to be a big production. I
know this sounds goofy, but it is very real.

I love NEVs. I love it that I don't have to license them here. 

Jack Rickard
-- 
View this message in context: http://www.nabble.com/Honda-600%27s-more-info.-tp21672996p21813565.html
Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

_______________________________________________
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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] www.evalbum.com/1440 = Don't reject NEV till youdriveone !!!*

If you have seen the video also check the color code for the dummy as per the EU regulatios

The 60% ofset test at 45 MPH is 45% more stressful on the occupant, yet without air bag the car fares as well as FIAT and PEUGEOT models of the same size.

Collapsed body like in case of "brilliance" from China kills the occupant that is protected with air bag and seatblets, just like in smart you want to keep the body structure integral.

The reinforcements are in the doors and roof rails, that has nothing to do with impact absortion of the front end of the vehicle.? There extra inch in bumper that is filled with impact absorption foam reduces teh dummy loading by 20 to 25%

The EU bumper is just a plastic decoration with nothing in it but air.

The differences to observer are un-noticeable in the finished car, but it adds $300 to the car cost which in under $8,000 vehicle is a lot.

The non reinforced body OKA (basic model) we only sell to parking lot and commercial security for patrol use and none of them have ever been registered for road use.? They also do not have DOT glazing just so that no one would be tempted to do so.




-----Original Message-----
From: John G. Lussmyer <[email protected]>
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <[email protected]>
Sent: Mon, 2 Feb 2009 6:43 pm
Subject: Re: [EVDL] www.evalbum.com/1440 = Don't reject NEV till youdriveone !!!





> [email protected] wrote:
> > The car taht gets the least damage is the version that US NEV is based on, it
> has extra reinforcements in the body, not required by FMVSS #500 but we put them
> in, as I want to be safe myself !
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] www.evalbum.com/1440 = Don't reject NEV till youdriveone !!!*

90% of US made cars fail the EU test, that is one most prominent reason NONE are sold in Europe !

45 MPH 60% offset is lot less severe than 30 MPH 100% impact, if USA would be trully concerned about safety they would also adopt the same test that the other 45,000 million vehicels made in rest of the world have to pass.

Chinese can not meet either with most of theri vehicles, and same level of quality of safety is in vehicles sold in Mexico.




-----Original Message-----
From: Roger Heuckeroth <[email protected]>
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <[email protected]>
Sent: Mon, 2 Feb 2009 7:08 pm
Subject: Re: [EVDL] www.evalbum.com/1440 = Don't reject NEV till youdriveone !!!



Did you look at the videos? The difference between the one that had 
the most damage and the one that had the least is like the difference 
between instant death, and being in a coma before dying. Both 
versions are death traps. The steering wheel shoots up to meet the 
drivers face in both cases. No airbags. In one the whole passenger 
compartment becomes part of the crumple zone. In the other not quite 
as bad, but still deformed.

This guy is so concerned that you should have the right in America to 
buy and drive one of these death traps. What a patriot! Hope someone 
sue him for all he's worth.




> John G. Lussmyer wrote:
> 
> > [email protected] wrote:
> >> The car taht gets the least damage is the version that US NEV is
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] www.evalbum.com/1440 = Don't reject NEV till youdriveone !!!*

Absolutely correct !

The tire which was thought to absorb impact actually causes more damage, in the NEV the spare tire is "optional" as none of our compatition even offer a spare anyway.

Also in NEV the entire front end is more or less "empty" with extra re-inforcements made from aluminium tubing, and the EV motor and transaxle take lot less room than ICE engine.


-----Original Message-----
From: David Roden <[email protected]>
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <[email protected]>
Sent: Mon, 2 Feb 2009 9:21 pm
Subject: Re: [EVDL] www.evalbum.com/1440 = Don't reject NEV till youdriveone !!!



These clips are pretty harrowing to watch. Certainly many other modern 
small cars fare far better in crash testing than the Oka, but it's important 
to remember that all modern vehicles' crash zones are carefully engineered 
as a system to provide passenger protection. When we convert these cars to 
EVs, we drastically change the geometry at both front and rear. Without 
crash testing of the conversions, there's no way we can claim that our 
conversions provide the level of passenger protection that the original 
vehicles do.

I don't understand Russian, but it seems pretty clear from the presentation 
of the Lada Oka crash test clip that the underhood spare tire placement was 
responsible for a some of the passenger compartment deformation and the 
resulting driver injury. It's hard to imagine that batteries - regardless 
of chemistry - placed similarly would be much less of a hazard in a crash.

This is not to discourage anyone from building an EV conversion, just to 
remind all that our modifications on these vehicles may have unpredictable 
effects, and that most of us don't have the means to calculate those 
effects. Anyone who does conversions for a living would be well advised to 
maintain pretty darn good liability insurance!

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

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EVDL Information: http://www.evdl.org/help/
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Note: mail sent to "evpost" or "etpost" addresses will not 
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_______________________________________________
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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] www.evalbum.com/1440 = Don't reject NEV till youdriveone !!!*



> On 3 Feb 2009 at 8:39, Jack Rickard wrote:
> 
> > You guys have wandered into lala land from which there is no return on this
> > topic.
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] www.evalbum.com/1440 = Don't reject NEV till youdriveone !!!*



> EVDL Administrator <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> >
> > How about you? How much of your driving could you really do with an EV
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] www.evalbum.com/1440 = Don't reject NEV till youdriveone !!!*

North Hollywood, CA
Burbank, CA
Glendale, CA
Las Vegas, NV
Henderson, NV
Surprise, AZ
Hollywood, CA
West Hollywood, CA
Santa Monica, CA
Santa Barbara, CA
Sandy Valley, NV
Poplar Bluff, MO
Cleveland, OH
Las Cruces, NM
Ft Calhoun, NE
Tampa, FL

On and on I can go, in all these places people found NEV not just practical but prever it not to driving their "normal" cars for most of their errands, to a point that some of them have not even driven their ICE car or van or truck for over a month, to a point that they ahd to "jump start" theri week battery from the NEV to get the ICE going !!!? Lot of modern gizzmos seem to drain the battery when te vehicle is not driven as they are always "ON" like audio system memories, clocks, etc, etc.

I have to jump start our CHEVY VAN than gets only occasional use with OKA NEV all teh time, the OEM battery goes dead in 3 weeks but recharges in 5 minutes once the vehicle is started (125 A altetrnator).

But to be fair in small town in Texas and another place in N. California 2 people so far in 6 years found their OKA NEV purchase to be impractical for them, we of course bought the vehicles back.

If they bought any other vehicle most likely if they did nto like it for what ever reson the dealer or manufacturer would just tell them "too bad", Gem owners get that all the time, I do know of few that had to sell theris at big loss after they found out NEV was not for them.

Burbank, CA
San Jose, CA
Barstow, CA
Pasadena, CA

So paart of the business of promoting NEV, is to be also responsible dealer or manufacturer and not let people who really made a mistake buing them for their particular lifestile be stuck with a DEAD BATTERY NEV !!!

I think that is the least promoted part of ANY EV ownership, if you do NTO use it daily, the battery life suffers and the cost per mile goes through the roof !

IF you only drive it once per month or so (like the guy in Texas did) it really makes no sense, we got the NEV back about year later with only 68 miles on it !!!

So if you do not gona use it, no matter what size or speed EV it is, you really should not have EV, ICE can be parked for years adn with fresh battery and proper oil in in while not in use, it will start in seconds with fresh fill of fuel.

DO that with EV, and it is hundreds if not thousands of $ in NEW battery pack expense !


-----Original Message-----
From: EVDL Administrator <[email protected]>
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <[email protected]>
Sent: Tue, 3 Feb 2009 10:06 am
Subject: Re: [EVDL] www.evalbum.com/1440 = Don't reject NEV till youdriveone !!!





> On 3 Feb 2009 at 8:39, Jack Rickard wrote:
> 
> > You guys have wandered into lala land from which there is no return on this
> > topic.
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] www.evalbum.com/1440 = Don't reject NEV till youdriveone !!!*

Thanks for the nudge Mr Roden,

I drive about 40 miles each way to work. All but about 3/4th's of a mile
is 55mph and above.

I would give my eye teeth for a vehicle that would get me to work and home
without worry

of terminal discharge in warm or cold weather and be affordable. I do not
relish the

thought of paying out over $4 per gallon again and would much rather use
that cash

to buy a vehicle that would do what I need and be a clean run vs. the
toxics coming out

of my present vehicles tail pipes. There are other types of Cooperatives
in this country,

why can't we start a cooperative effort for manufacturing ev's that will
fit the bill for our

largest sector of population to start with? Try to eliminate enough of the
mid-size, mid-range,

vehicles to make the most difference in our country. If the auto corps or
oil guys make it difficult,

we now have the internet to broadcast out those issues. To call attention
to those that want to

get in the way of coomon sense rather than profit.

Thus, a vehicle running 25 mph or even 35mph does me nothing.

Sorry for the soap box,

Thank you,

Bernie A. Knutson




"EVDL 
Administrator" 
<[email protected]> To 
Sent by: Electric Vehicle Discussion List 
[email protected] <[email protected]> 
sjsu.edu cc 

Subject 
02/03/2009 12:11 Re: [EVDL] www.evalbum.com/1440 = 
PM Don't reject NEV till youdriveone 
!!! 

Please respond to 
Electric Vehicle 
Discussion List 
<[email protected] 
u>  








> On 3 Feb 2009 at 8:39, Jack Rickard wrote:
> 
> > You guys have wandered into lala land from which there is no return on
> this
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] www.evalbum.com/1440 = Don't reject NEV till youdriveone !!!*



> EVDL Administrator wrote:
> > How about you? How much of your driving could you really do with an EV that
> > was limited to 25mph? Would it be worth spending $8-10K for such a vehicle?
> 
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] www.evalbum.com/1440 = Don't reject NEV till youdriveone !!!*

On the topic of crash testing safety and the like... Why are so many 
people convinced that SUVs are so safe? First of all they have a high 
center of gravity, and are top heavy, with an EV there is nothing like 
hundreds of pounds of lead low in the car to keep you glued to the 
road. People think that they are driving a big safe vehicle and less 
likely to be hurt, but in reality an SUV is much more likely to roll 
over in a high speed turn than in an EV. Second, traditionally SUVs 
and trucks didnt have to meet the same safety standards as passenger 
cars, and arent engineered to the same safety. The third part is the 
arrogance of SUV drivers, who have the attitude of "I dont care who I 
kill in my 8000lb SUV as long as I am safe!". What kind of self 
righteous bull is this??? The emphasis should be more on driving safe 
cars, than on who you can kill in your SUV. This is one of the 
reasons why I bought a Kewet for around town driving. First of all it 
is well made, and second of all it has actually undergone 50mph crash 
testing, and meets the European standards.

_______________________________________________
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Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
Archives: http://evdl.org/archive/
Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] www.evalbum.com/1440 = Don't reject NEV till youdriveone !!!*

Easy question. I couldn't legally leave my driveway. There is one road
I could drive on, but it is 3 miles from my house and 5 miles long.



> EVDL Administrator <[email protected]> wrote:
> > On 3 Feb 2009 at 8:39, Jack Rickard wrote:
> >
> >> You guys have wandered into lala land from which there is no return on this
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] www.evalbum.com/1440 = Don't reject NEV till youdriveone !!!*



> Jack Rickard wrote:
> 
> >Tomberlin is ostensibly working on essentially a Hummer-like NEV. It's
> >called the Anvil and I want one. But they never do quite get there with
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] www.evalbum.com/1440 = Don't reject NEV till youdriveone !!!*

25mph...probably not worth it. 45 though, is money. And would save me from
speeding tickets.

I live in the suburbs south of Salt Lake City.

My commute is on a surface street with a couple hills and 40-45mph speed
limits and lots of stop lights. 6 miles each way. The gym is also on that
route at the 2 mile point. So each day is 2 then 2, then 6 then 6. 16
miles total, plus maybe lunch, which is usually within a mile of the office.

Unless I have to run errands or take the kids to practice/meets in the
evening, that's it for me. Some of those errands involve the freeway, but
have satisfactory surface street alternatives. I never take my rockcrawler
jeep on the freeway, and I use it as my commuter most of the summer. The
freeway here is 65 speed limit anyway, which means 75ish.

That's why an EV conversion or other commuter would/will be worth it to me.
My wife is the same, taking kids to/from school/jobs/sports, only once a
week she drives 20 miles away for her job. It'd be great to only drive my
big 9000lb ICE SUV on the weekends. At least it doesn't have spark plugs.
Brett


> EVDL Administrator <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> >
> > How about you? How much of your driving could you really do with an EV
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] www.evalbum.com/1440 = Don't reject NEV till youdriveone !!!*



> On 4 Feb 2009 at 3:06, chris wrote:
> 
> > Why are so many people convinced that SUVs are so safe?
> 
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] www.evalbum.com/1440 = Don't reject NEV till youdriveone !!!*



> Jack Rickard wrote:
> 
> > But I have THREE of the GEMs and I just love em. All are the
> > pickup truck/flatbed model, two shorties and a longbed. I
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] www.evalbum.com/1440 = Don't reject NEV till youdriveone !!!*

For individuals who are just getting your first EV, Old guy's friendly 
advice, park ICE under cover and put "Marine" Battery Disconnect on the ICE car 
battery under the hood. When you park ICE car for week or two, Switch battery 
off. When you need it again up to three months later , switch it back on and 
it usually will start right up. always add some fresh gas on each trip and 
that keeps fuel "fresh" too. I found I drove my EV everyday except for twice 
each month when I visited family 200 miles away. Oh yeah, change oil in ICE 
every 6 months MINIMUM. The EV survived being parked for 2 or 3 days if I 
charged it up and cut off the main disconnect , DC/DC off too! Then did an 
equalizing charge before I drove it again. 


In a message dated 2/3/2009 1:32:50 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, 
[email protected] writes:

North Hollywood, CA
Burbank, CA
Glendale, CA
Las Vegas, NV
Henderson, NV
Surprise, AZ
Hollywood, CA
West Hollywood, CA
Santa Monica, CA
Santa Barbara, CA
Sandy Valley, NV
Poplar Bluff, MO
Cleveland, OH
Las Cruces, NM
Ft Calhoun, NE
Tampa, FL

On and on I can go, in all these places people found NEV not just practical 
but prever it not to driving their "normal" cars for most of their errands, 
to a point that some of them have not even driven their ICE car or van or 
truck for over a month, to a point that they ahd to "jump start" theri week 
battery from the NEV to get the ICE going !!!? Lot of modern gizzmos seem to drain 
the battery when te vehicle is not driven as they are always "ON" like audio 
system memories, clocks, etc, etc.

I have to jump start our CHEVY VAN than gets only occasional use with OKA 
NEV all teh time, the OEM battery goes dead in 3 weeks but recharges in 5 
minutes once the vehicle is started (125 A altetrnator).

But to be fair in small town in Texas and another place in N. California 2 
people so far in 6 years found their OKA NEV purchase to be impractical for 
them, we of course bought the vehicles back.

If they bought any other vehicle most likely if they did nto like it for 
what ever reson the dealer or manufacturer would just tell them "too bad", Gem 
owners get that all the time, I do know of few that had to sell theris at big 
loss after they found out NEV was not for them.

Burbank, CA
San Jose, CA
Barstow, CA
Pasadena, CA

So paart of the business of promoting NEV, is to be also responsible dealer 
or manufacturer and not let people who really made a mistake buing them for 
their particular lifestile be stuck with a DEAD BATTERY NEV !!!

I think that is the least promoted part of ANY EV ownership, if you do NTO 
use it daily, the battery life suffers and the cost per mile goes through the 
roof !

IF you only drive it once per month or so (like the guy in Texas did) it 
really makes no sense, we got the NEV back about year later with only 68 miles 
on it !!!

So if you do not gona use it, no matter what size or speed EV it is, you 
really should not have EV, ICE can be parked for years adn with fresh battery 
and proper oil in in while not in use, it will start in seconds with fresh fill 
of fuel.

DO that with EV, and it is hundreds if not thousands of $ in NEW battery 
pack expense !


-----Original Message-----
From: EVDL Administrator <[email protected]>
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <[email protected]>
Sent: Tue, 3 Feb 2009 10:06 am
Subject: Re: [EVDL] www.evalbum.com/1440 = Don't reject NEV till youdriveone 
!!!





> On 3 Feb 2009 at 8:39, Jack Rickard wrote:
> 
> > You guys have wandered into lala land from which there is no return on this
> > topic.
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] www.evalbum.com/1440 = Don't reject NEV till youdriveone !!!*

the only hummer like golf cart you can get is www.californiaroadster.com

But GM will alert their legal team if you make any hummer look alike no matter what it is.

They do not want HUMMER NEV, period!


-----Original Message-----
From: Joe <[email protected]>
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <[email protected]>
Sent: Tue, 3 Feb 2009 4:28 pm
Subject: Re: [EVDL] www.evalbum.com/1440 = Don't reject NEV till youdriveone !!!







> Jack Rickard wrote:
> 
> >Tomberlin is ostensibly working on essentially a Hummer-like NEV. It's
> >called the Anvil and I want one. But they never do quite get there with
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] www.evalbum.com/1440 = Don't reject NEV till youdriveone !!!*

In fairness anyone with a grain of sense probably wouldn't want one.
The drag coefficient from that kind of design stile is insane.



> <[email protected]> wrote:
> > the only hummer like golf cart you can get is www.californiaroadster.com
> >
> > But GM will alert their legal team if you make any hummer look alike no matter what it is.
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] www.evalbum.com/1440 = Don't reject NEV till youdriveone !!!*



> <[email protected]> wrote:
> >> the only hummer like golf cart you can get is
> >> www.californiaroadster.com
> 
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] www.evalbum.com/1440 = Don't reject NEV till youdriveone !!!*



> Lee Hart <[email protected]> wrote:
> > <[email protected]> wrote:
> > >> the only hummer like golf cart you can get is
> > >> www.californiaroadster.com
> ...


----------

