# Haiyin Battery Build Thread



## piotrsko (Dec 9, 2007)

it pays to remind you WHY people STOPPED using aluminum for house wire: it corrodes really fast and then causes fires. Yes there are fixes and I can't stop you from using it, so I'll wish you good luck instead.


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## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

piotrsko said:


> it pays to remind you WHY people STOPPED using aluminum for house wire: it corrodes really fast and then causes fires. Yes there are fixes and I can't stop you from using it, so I'll wish you good luck instead.


Silver coated aluminum would not corrode, most power line poles use aluminum.


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## DavidDymaxion (Dec 1, 2008)

Ron don't rush into production yet without some more engineering and testing.


Aluminum is roughly 1/3 the weight of copper (your weight ratio is exactly the ratio of the densities). However, you also need to include that aluminum is only about 60% as conductive as copper. This means you need 1/2 the weight of aluminum, not 1/3.
Aluminum on copper is a recipe for corrosion. You'll need special aluminum to copper connections -- that adds weight and complexity.
Aluminum expands and contracts much more than copper, meaning it is more likely to loosen a connection.
Aluminum only conducts about 60% of the heat, plus you'll have less of it, so now you are down to 30%, meaning if you have a hot battery it won't wick away as much heat as copper.
Aluminum has a lower melting point than copper.
Aluminum is more likely to work harden and break due to vibration
Anyway, do you really want to be the only person I can recall using aluminum wiring in an EV? 

Here's a nice article that basically says don't use aluminum wiring in a car:

http://www.mobiloil.com/USA-English/MotorOil/Car_Care/DIY/Automotive_Wiring_Basics.aspx


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## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

David, thank you for the input, I am just looking at the pros and cons of using aluminum, I think copper will be the material I use.



DavidDymaxion said:


> Ron don't rush into production yet without some more engineering and testing.
> 
> 
> Aluminum is roughly 1/3 the weight of copper (your weight ratio is exactly the ratio of the densities). However, you also need to include that aluminum is only about 60% as conductive as copper. This means you need 1/2 the weight of aluminum, not 1/3.
> ...


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## rwaudio (May 22, 2008)

Just remember in your aluminium vs copper debate, one of the terminals of your cell is possibly already aluminium (For LiFePO4 it is, your LiPo's might be the same), if you already have aluminium the same care would be required in every second connection anyway.

Aluminium is used in many places for electrical connections and as long as you know it's an aluminium connection and prepare it as an aluminium connection it will be just fine as an aluminium connection. If you treat it like copper watch out.


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## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

We decided on copper bus bar connectors 30mm wide by 15mm tall. Pictures coming soon!


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## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

http://racing.torkmotorcycles.com/

Haiyin cells will be raced at the Isle of Man Race! I will be present.


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## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

We have a new sponsee, Kansas University Jayhawk Formula Hybrid Team, they just purchased a large order. The name Haiyin is growing quickly!

I am giving a discount for all the Formula Hybrid Teams.


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## EVfun (Mar 14, 2010)

Just remember how to make a small fortune in racing Ron. You start with a large fortune. Good luck, many have had *just* enough success to keep going in this EV biz. (don't quit your day job  )


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## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)




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## Guest (Oct 14, 2011)

Ron,

Do we have any information on the new cells? How well do they handle fast charge inputs and fast discharges. I am looking for the cell testing results before deciding on purchasing them for my Buggy. 

Pete


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## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

The engineers told me you can charge them at 35 amps, no higher.



gottdi said:


> Ron,
> 
> Do we have any information on the new cells? How well do they handle fast charge inputs and fast discharges. I am looking for the cell testing results before deciding on purchasing them for my Buggy.
> 
> Pete


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## Theredone51 (Oct 15, 2011)

Could you tell me what the dimensions are of the "connector flaps"? The image at http://ecedra.com/thebatteryshop.html only tells me they are 30mm wide, but what is the height?


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## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

15mm tall, 30mm wide.



Theredone51 said:


> Could you tell me what the dimensions are of the "connector flaps"? The image at http://ecedra.com/thebatteryshop.html only tells me they are 30mm wide, but what is the height?


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## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

I am looking for recommendations on a BMS system for the Haiyin Lipo Cells, I know Elithion will work, any other good brands that work with Lipos?


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## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)




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## Guest (Oct 16, 2011)

Ohhhhhh you keep teasing us with those cells. I want to see them in action. Are you concerned about turning your chassis into a pretzel with those two Dual Com motors and all that amperage with the new Evnetics controllers? Seems like an awful lot of torque. Enough to turn that thing into butter upon launching under full power. I await the day you take it out for a run. I gotta see that first run. Just gotta. 

Pete


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## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

First run will be in Lebanon Valley Dragway in NY. I will start low and move up slowly. First launch will be 1500amps 250volts each motor, then check suspension. Next launch will be 2000amps 300volts each motor, then check suspension. Next launch will be 2500amps 370volts each motor, then check my heart rate! 



gottdi said:


> Ohhhhhh you keep teasing us with those cells. I want to see them in action. Are you concerned about turning your chassis into a pretzel with those two Dual Com motors and all that amperage with the new Evnetics controllers? Seems like an awful lot of torque. Enough to turn that thing into butter upon launching under full power. I await the day you take it out for a run. I gotta see that first run. Just gotta.
> 
> Pete


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## Theredone51 (Oct 15, 2011)

Ronald,

May I ask how you're planning on connecting the celltabs together? I'm planning on building 2 batterypack's for a Formula Student Electric racecar with the Haiyins. The config will be: 2P80S. I've been thinking about joining the cells in packs of 2 (parallel) with aluminium blocks and then putting all of these in series, but I've also been thinking about putting all the cells together and connecting the + en - poles in series by using busbars. For the competition it isn't allowed to use solder to connect the cells together, so that's a no go.


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## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

We are using copper bus bars cut into smaller sections that match the size of the tab, 1/4" thick by 3/4" wide bus bars, cut each section 30mm. Drill hole in each section and place between tabs. The farthest positive will need to reach out of the housing to connect a cable, as well as the farthest negative. We are using the Elithion Pro BMS and cell boards that are used for the 146 size prismatic cells (fit better). Each parallel block will need a hole in the pos bus bar and the negative to wire in the cell board.



Theredone51 said:


> Ronald,
> 
> May I ask how you're planning on connecting the celltabs together? I'm planning on building 2 batterypack's for a Formula Student Electric racecar with the Haiyins. The config will be: 2P80S. I've been thinking about joining the cells in packs of 2 (parallel) with aluminium blocks and then putting all of these in series, but I've also been thinking about putting all the cells together and connecting the + en - poles in series by using busbars. For the competition it isn't allowed to use solder to connect the cells together, so that's a no go.


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## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

*Drilling the tab holes.*


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## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

*Grind off any burrs.*


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## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

Clean off any glue from tape from cell tabs.


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## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

*We use double side tape to connect each parallel cell. *


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## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

*Wrap each parallel bank with electrical tape.*


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## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

Each parallel bank will need to connect to another in series, you can use a piece of G10 fiberglass to separate the banks, but cut out the side (where tab connects) for the series connection. This protects the opposite side you do not want touching the next bank. I will show diagrams later.


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## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

I am looking to seal the top of each parallel bank in some type of glue or sealant, any ideas?

I want a solid level matching the cell edge height. There will be a thin piece of lexan installed, but still would like to add something below.


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## Theredone51 (Oct 15, 2011)

You could use the same resin they use to protect electronic components on circuit boards.

Ronald, could you contact me please at sander_ram at hotmail dot com? I've send a few emails to the [email protected] because I'm willing to buy some Haiyin cells for our Formula Student Team, but I get no response. Thanks!


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## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

I run a few business, and sometimes miss emails. Please contact me @ [email protected]



Theredone51 said:


> You could use the same resin they use to protect electronic components on circuit boards.
> 
> Ronald, could you contact me please at sander_ram at hotmail dot com? I've send a few emails to the [email protected] because I'm willing to buy some Haiyin cells for our Formula Student Team, but I get no response. Thanks!


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## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

Sounds like a great idea.



Theredone51 said:


> You could use the same resin they use to protect electronic components on circuit boards.
> 
> Ronald, could you contact me please at sander_ram at hotmail dot com? I've send a few emails to the [email protected] because I'm willing to buy some Haiyin cells for our Formula Student Team, but I get no response. Thanks!


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## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

Cutting copper today, should have a complete box in a few day.


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## MN Driver (Sep 29, 2009)

Great setup, I've been watching everything come together, great to see the progress as everything comes along.


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## Theredone51 (Oct 15, 2011)

LithiumaniacsEVRacing said:


> We are using the Elithion Pro BMS and cell boards that are used for the 146 size prismatic cells (fit better). Each parallel block will need a hole in the pos bus bar and the negative to wire in the cell board.


I'm also looking into the Elithion BMS. The 146 size prismatic cellboards have M10 connector rings, and as the copper bus bars are only 6,6mm thick you can't fit an M10 in there. So are you planning on cutting of the connector rings and soldering on a smaller version?

And why is it that the 146 size fits better then the 1PO0000 cellboards? I was thinking about using these: http://lithiumate.elithion.com/images/pouch_cb_stack_rings_sm.jpg


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## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

I am using the generic cell boards, I will solder the wires myself. 
http://products.elithion.com/1SC0100X.php
I am installing the cell boards on the lexan top, I will run the wires into the pack and connect to the bus bar with a small eye loop connector. This gives the option to lay the cell board flat away from the tabs.



Theredone51 said:


> I'm also looking into the Elithion BMS. The 146 size prismatic cellboards have M10 connector rings, and as the copper bus bars are only 6,6mm thick you can't fit an M10 in there. So are you planning on cutting of the connector rings and soldering on a smaller version?
> 
> And why is it that the 146 size fits better then the 1PO0000 cellboards? I was thinking about using these: http://lithiumate.elithion.com/images/pouch_cb_stack_rings_sm.jpg


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## DavidDymaxion (Dec 1, 2008)

Lithiumaniacs: Not taking a side myself here, but Jack Rickard blames Elithion for several EV fires, and believes having no bms is safer. So anyway, just curious on the thought process to use a BMS, and why you chose Elithion.



LithiumaniacsEVRacing said:


> I am using the generic cell boards, I will solder the wires myself.
> http://products.elithion.com/1SC0100X.php
> I am installing the cell boards on the lexan top, I will run the wires into the pack and connect to the bus bar with a small eye loop connector. This gives the option to lay the cell board flat away from the tabs.


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## Guest (Oct 26, 2011)

I am sure one of the reasons is that the cells are not LiFePO4 but LiPO pouch cells. In this light I'd be using a thermal watch dog to shut things down. As for top or bottom I will be doing a bottom balance. I may have to check once a week or so to be sure there is no odd ball self discharging going on. These might. But I'd be more worried about thermal issues causing troubles than anything else.


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## lithiumlogic (Aug 24, 2011)

DavidDymaxion said:


> Lithiumaniacs: Not taking a side myself here, but Jack Rickard blames Elithion for several EV fires, and believes having no bms is safer. So anyway, just curious on the thought process to use a BMS, and why you chose Elithion.


Is the different cell chemistry a factor? LiFePO4 is full charged at 3.4V, electrolyte breakdown not occuring till 4.3V or more. LiCoO2 is full at 4.2V, but it uses the same electrolyte as LiFePO4. Less wiggle room?

Of course you could just go with a passive battery monitoring system, that keeps tabs on the voltage at each paralelled group of cells in the series string, and have it shut down the motor and charger if a group of cells get too high or too low.

Some say that cobalt oxide chemistries are too dangerous for automotive applications. My view is that if you can prevent a thermal runaway from propagating one cell to the next, either with physical separation, or liquid cooling, you're still ok. 

You can't really guarantee this if the pack is in a crumple zone, as they could still be crushed together. But according to the lecture someone linked on http://www.ri.cmu.edu/video_view.html?video_id=60&menu_id=387 , the electrolyte of iron phosphate batteries is also flammable - if the cell is torn open rapidly and a spark occurs, you still have fire no matter how safe the chemistry.

Anyway, what concerns me a little about this pack is that the cells appear to be jammed in like sardines and there doesnt seem to be much place for heat to go, exept for into neighbouring cells. Perhaps the whole pack is getting tucked away into a corner of the car far away from the driver, where it can burn safely.

On the other hand, given that space is not likely at a premium in this application, he could have tried really spreading the cells out, so one cell is unlikely to send it's neighbour into runaway.

Anyway, this is a RACE car, with nomex suits and fire marshalls and all that stuff. You think cobalt oxide is fun, you should try nitromethane


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## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

Jack's prismatic cells are much different than a lipo cell. He has proven you do not need a BMS for his pack type. I would never trust any BMS to control the charging on your pack without monitoring. Most lipo cells carry a high C-Rating and pack a much larger punch than a prismatic cell, charging must be perfect, BMS is the only way to go. 

Not all BMS producers will work with lipo cells, do you know of a "better" brand than Elithion?



DavidDymaxion said:


> Lithiumaniacs: Not taking a side myself here, but Jack Rickard blames Elithion for several EV fires, and believes having no bms is safer. So anyway, just curious on the thought process to use a BMS, and why you chose Elithion.


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## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

First, lipo cells need to be "tight" with light compression on the flat side. Second, heat is not an issue, lipo cells produce better when warm, plus we only drain for 8 to 10 seconds. I have built and raced the largest lipo pack ever built for drag racing, I drained 4000amps out of my pack every race and never needed the fire marshall. 



lithiumlogic said:


> Anyway, what concerns me a little about this pack is that the cells appear to be jammed in like sardines and there doesnt seem to be much place for heat to go, exept for into neighbouring cells. Perhaps the whole pack is getting tucked away into a corner of the car far away from the driver, where it can burn safely.
> 
> Anyway, this is a RACE car, with nomex suits and fire marshalls and all that stuff. You think cobalt oxide is fun, you should try nitromethane


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## DavidDymaxion (Dec 1, 2008)

I'll admit my bias, I think having a circuit board per cell (or parallel group of cells) has risk -- possibly even introducing more risk than it eliminates. You are counting on 100 circuits boards to all not fail, to be very consistent with each other, and to have very low parasitic draw.

My bias is a balancer like Lee Hart's, where you switch between cells, is better. The benefit is you have one voltage measuring device (very consistent!), and when it's off, it's off, no parasitic drain. A down side is round-robin switching between cells might miss a high speed event. An upside is such a system can actually charge cells individually, so shunting is not necessary.

Is there a commercial system that works like Lee Hart's system works?


LithiumaniacsEVRacing said:


> Jack's prismatic cells are much different than a lipo cell. He has proven you do not need a BMS for his pack type. I would never trust any BMS to control the charging on your pack without monitoring. Most lipo cells carry a high C-Rating and pack a much larger punch than a prismatic cell, charging must be perfect, BMS is the only way to go.
> 
> Not all BMS producers will work with lipo cells, do you know of a "better" brand than Elithion?


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## gor (Nov 25, 2009)

LithiumaniacsEVRacing said:


>


Ron, it's P68100120F-50C cells? 
http://www.ecedra.com/thebatteryshop.html
2 megawatt battery... not bad


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## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

The published C-Rating numbers from the factory are very conservative, I have been told these cells can deliver 100C Burst Rating. 100C would give my 13P pack 7,800amps of Burst!!! The heat becomes an issue when delivering high amps, you can only deliver for 10 seconds or less. I will see no or very little voltage sag even with both 3000amp controllers. 





gor said:


> Ron, it's P68100120F-50C cells?
> http://www.ecedra.com/thebatteryshop.html
> 2 megawatt battery... not bad


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## Elithion (Oct 6, 2009)

DavidDymaxion said:


> Jack Rickard blames Elithion for several EV fires


It is not unheard of that when someone has concerns about a product in general, they will often focus their attacks on the leading brand. So, if you are paranoid about banks in general, you'll blame Bank Of America or Chase, not your local Credit Union. Same thing with BMSs: it you have an irrational fear of BMSs, you'll focus your accusations on the best known brand. 

Elithion BMSs have not caused any fires.

It's just that someone with an irrational fear of BMSs is wrongly blaming BMSs in general, and Elithion in particular, because they see it as the most respected brand. It's just like those people who accuse a minority of eating babies or of being terrorists.

As long as we all know that such accusations are irrational, I really don't care what is being spewed. We should just ignore rumors based on hatred, and instead go back to building EVs.


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## Guest (Oct 29, 2011)

Well in general I am concerned about BMS systems because there are a large number of them on the market and some were literally assembled and then put on the market within a month as a safe solution. That is just insane. I have a batch of batteries (hi-power) lithium cells that were sold with from the factory with a BMS system that was to protect the cells. Problem was that the BMS system failed and drained all the cells in two packs to zero and some cells in other packs to zero allowing to push full pack amperage through near empty cells killing them. In general no one that I know that builds a BMS system will guarantee my cells from damage over the life of the cells if said BMS system is installed.


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## Guest (Oct 29, 2011)

It is known that BMS systems have failed and drained cells or packs. Can't say about the fires but if a well known BMS system was on a vehicle that burned and that said vehicle was charging it is not hard to speculate that the charger continued to charge when it should have turned off. The said charger was the tops in the business. Smart too. Well until the BMS system was told to take over the duties. Do we know for sure that the BMS did not contribute to the cause? NO. Could the BMS have just lost communication but still been working but now can't talk with the charger? Could be! Judgment is not random. Not fully justified but I'd say many BMS systems could fall into this area. 

Sorry Davide but I did watch your videos. Not overly impressed if your trying to convince me to buy your product and to convince me it is really important. I happen to be a skeptic since the information found and learned first hand has shown me that the person mentioned is not off base at all. 

I am not against monitoring or even safety shut downs but to have all that for each and every cell is a bit much. 

I actually do have a BMS. My controller, charger and thermal switch on the motor. Now I need one for my pack temp. I will do a split pack watch. Simple but functional but it is a BMS. 

Pete


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## Elithion (Oct 6, 2009)

I assume you're talking about the LincVolt.



gottdi said:


> if a well known BMS system was on a vehicle that burned ...


Yes: it was the Elithion Lithiumate BMS. It was "on" the vehicle, but not "fully installed" to the vehicle. 
(It's like saying: "I had a condom in my pocket: how could I have gotten pregnant?")



gottdi said:


> ...and that said vehicle was charging it is not hard to speculate that the charger continued to charge when it should have turned off.


Yes, absolutely; you are correct. That is exactly what happened.



gottdi said:


> Do we know for sure that the BMS did not contribute to the cause? NO.


Well, actually, "yes", we do.

This is what I am given to understand happened.
At the time, the charger was sitting outside of the car, and was in no way connected to the BMS. The folks forgot that the charger was on and charging, and left for the night. The BMS started screaming at the top of its lungs "STOP CHARGING!!!!", but there was no one listening: the charger was not connected to the BMS, so there was not a darn thing that the BMS could do.
Also, second mistake: they never set the charger's top voltage to match the pack voltage. So, the charger kept on pumping current into the battery, long after the battery pack reached its full voltage.
As a result of those two big errors in the LincVolt's installation, the overcharged pack started a fire.

Still, I have a lot of respect for the LincVolt folks, because they acknowledged their mistake. Their official explanation is: “LincVolt suffered a disastrous accidental fire stemming from human error”.

So, I would appreciate it if you could please respect established facts, acknowledge the LinkVolt's makers admission that it was human error that caused the fire, and refrain from fabricating or propagating fanciful stories designed to put blame to the blameless.
I thank you in advance for it.


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## Guest (Oct 29, 2011)

I do respect the facts that are KNOWN. It is also known the vehicle had a brusa and the quality of the brusa and and the reputation of the brusa I have a hard time believing that the brusa just up and quit being smart on its own and just kept on charging. I believe that you were told one thing while another actually happened. I'd blame the BMS first too. Do I know or you know for absolute certainty. No. Do you believe what you were told? Yes. Do I? No. Knowing that the batteries I purchased used to have a BMS that failed on them I would believe that the BMS in GENERAL was to blame.

In this case if the Brusa smarts can be shut off before connecting the BMS then I would better believe the case but I do not know that and still believe that the charger was in fact connected to the BMS and that the BMS lost communication. Not hard to see that it could actually have happened that way even though some one said otherwise to protect their ass. I am sure Lincvolt had lots to cover. 

Do you guarantee your BMS to live and last and protect a pack for the life of the pack?


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## EVfun (Mar 14, 2010)

Ron is running a Cobalt oxide cathode based type of LiPoly cell. He pretty much has to run a BMS to be safe. The concept of no BMS on Lithium only applies to LiFePO4. 

If you pick a different chemistry you have different requirements. In this case, charging to 4.2 volts per cell to reach full charge without any exceeding 4.3 volts. This is a modern version of the type of Lithium cells made notorious for causing some laptop fires.


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## Guest (Oct 29, 2011)

I fully agree but I would still want that guarantee from the maker of the BMS.


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## Guest (Oct 29, 2011)

Because I am looking to by some pouch cells.


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## EVfun (Mar 14, 2010)

I don't think any BMS maker will be able to do that. The problem is, no matter what starts a Lithium battery fire the results will look about the same because the fire is fueled by battery pack.


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## Guest (Oct 29, 2011)

To bad. Unless I can get a guarantee I won't buy one.


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## Theredone51 (Oct 15, 2011)

I'd say: less bickering around here, more build pics!

Ron, how is the pack coming together? Cut the busbars to size already? Secretly I'm really looking forward to seeing you build the pack, so for my pack I have some kind of guidance


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## robert.helvestine (Oct 31, 2011)

Theredone51 said:


> I'm also looking into the Elithion BMS. The 146 size prismatic cellboards have M10 connector rings, and as the copper bus bars are only 6,6mm thick you can't fit an M10 in there. So are you planning on cutting of the connector rings and soldering on a smaller version?
> 
> And why is it that the 146 size fits better then the 1PO0000 cellboards? I was thinking about using these: http://lithiumate.elithion.com/images/pouch_cb_stack_rings_sm.jpg



Hi Theredone51,

The 1PO0000 cellboards should fit better as he is using pouch cells. So I am not sure as to why the 146 size is being used. 

Let me know if you have any questions regarding Elithion products, as I am happy to help.

Robert Helvestine
[email protected]


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## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

I am testing a few different model cell boards, I will have pictures soon.



robert.helvestine said:


> Hi Theredone51,
> 
> The 1PO0000 cellboards should fit better as he is using pouch cells. So I am not sure as to why the 146 size is being used.
> 
> ...


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## frodus (Apr 12, 2008)

make sure the cell boards are as close to the cells as possible.


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## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

Okay, thanks for the tip. I had planned on each cell board to run a 1" wire with eye connector on the Pos/Neg terminals of each 13P block.



frodus said:


> make sure the cell boards are as close to the cells as possible.


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## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

We have a change in design, after recent test results our parallel blocks will only need to be 10P, the 13P would be overkill. We can get the controllers to pump 6000 motor amps at 10P. At 10P the published amps would have a burst of 4000 battery amps, but we have tested these cells and have results over 400amps a cell.


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## aeroscott (Jan 5, 2008)

wow, does mean 10/13 the weight of a 400# pack = 307 lbs.about the weight of a heavy truck starting pack (6 X group 33's no that's 6x75# =450# or 75 x 4=300#) so 4 truck starting batteries= 300 lbs.


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## icec0o1 (Sep 3, 2009)

LithiumaniacsEVRacing said:


> We have a change in design, after recent test results our parallel blocks will only need to be 10P, the 13P would be overkill. We can get the controllers to pump 6000 motor amps at 10P. At 10P the published amps would have a burst of 4000 battery amps, but we have tested these cells and have results over 400amps a cell.


If you push them past their published specs, they'll last a lot less cycles.


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## Guest (Nov 5, 2011)

This is racing, who cares. Win enough and buy more.  Get sponsors to pay for you. 

Its about getting to the end of the track first and fastest and in one piece. 

These will do just fine.

Pete


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## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

If you beat the crap out of them about 500 cycles, if used normally about 1500 cycles.



GlobalCarDealers said:


> How long is the battery life?


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## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

Depends most battery companies publish very conservative specs, 400 burst amps is what they published. Going with 10P that gives me 4000 battery amps, but we all know that these cells will give you up to 100C, so that is 6000 battery amps. I will set the controllers for 2500 battery amps each. 



icec0o1 said:


> If you push them past their published specs, they'll last a lot less cycles.


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## aeroscott (Jan 5, 2008)

I was just thinking of putting a pack your Haiyin into a Lancair 200/320 airplane (kit home built) , flutter tested to over 400mph , normally 200 hp max will get 240mph . What fun ,but a short ride .


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## Dennis (Feb 25, 2008)

LithiumaniacsEVRacing said:


> We have a change in design, after recent test results our parallel blocks will only need to be 10P, the 13P would be overkill. We can get the controllers to pump 6000 motor amps at 10P. At 10P the published amps would have a burst of 4000 battery amps, but we have tested these cells and have results over 400amps a cell.


Question though is what does the voltage sag too? Voltage drop is your worst enemy when needing the RPM's near the end of the 1/4 mile run. You are already going to have voltage drops in the series field of the motor and the wiring, and so the battery voltage sag under heavy current draw will just compound the issue. :


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## Jozzer (Mar 29, 2009)

LithiumaniacsEVRacing said:


> If you beat the crap out of them about 500 cycles, if used normally about 1500 cycles.


 Do you have results proving that? Previous cells from this manufacturer manage less than 150 cycles at full rated current and 100% DOD, and I've yet to see more than 300 cycles for cells even cycled at 1/2 rated C from any tests I've done, so this would be a serious improvement..
(take a deep breath before answering Ron, this is a request for information about a product you are selling, NOT an attack on your person!)


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## icec0o1 (Sep 3, 2009)

Yeah, usually cycle life is given for 1C, not at max cell amps, even continuous. But as he said, who cares?  They'll last at least 100 cycles if the pack is put well together.


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## Jozzer (Mar 29, 2009)

Indeed, for Rons useage it really doesn't matter (though he'll want them to last a full race season minimum I would think?), but an improvement in cycle life could make them much more attractive to those wanting a longer life vehicle.
One of the benefits of high power cells is that if you want only a short range EV then you only need to buy a very small pack EVEN if you want to have full power for the wholse short ride, these cells are perfect for that too. But, if you have a vehicle like that (I do) then you rack up cycles very fast indeed, 100 cycles could last less than 2 months, whereas my slightly heavier A123 pack has lasted years in the same role.


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## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

Do you have results proving I am wrong? Your statements on this forum and the Endless Sphere Forum are very well planted. We all know you support A123, so take a hike. If you raced with A123 Amp20 cells you would lose and your cell life would not last years. I had the AMP20 cells tested, amps drop like a rock under a heavy load. If I thought you were an honest EV builder asking questions, my response would be much more polite, but I know who you are. 



Jozzer said:


> Do you have results proving that? Previous cells from this manufacturer manage less than 150 cycles at full rated current and 100% DOD, and I've yet to see more than 300 cycles for cells even cycled at 1/2 rated C from any tests I've done, so this would be a serious improvement..
> (take a deep breath before answering Ron, this is a request for information about a product you are selling, NOT an attack on your person!)


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## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

We will not have much voltage sag, like I posted these cells will produce more than 400amps burst. The engineering testing department reached 100C withe these cells, thats 600amps! .....X 10P= 6000amps. 



Dennis said:


> Question though is what does the voltage sag too? Voltage drop is your worst enemy when needing the RPM's near the end of the 1/4 mile run. You are already going to have voltage drops in the series field of the motor and the wiring, and so the battery voltage sag under heavy current draw will just compound the issue. :


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## Jozzer (Mar 29, 2009)

Ron you idiot, what are you talking about? I SELL turnigy battery's and put more of them on the race treack than you've had hot dinners. I have cycled tested a batch of cells, and run presale checks on every cell Ive sold (12000 to date).

I simply asked if you had results proving that the cells could do the stated number of cycles. I can tell you for a fact that previous cells from this manufacturer couldn't, and was keen to see if there was an improvement.
If there was, and your claim is true, then there has been an improvement I would like to know about it. Why should I have results to prove you wrong? I didnt accuse you of anything, I just asked to see YOUR results! I don't have a use for cells of this high discharge rate (no-one excpet a drag vehicle has) otherwise I would buy one and test it myself...except you have thoroughly put me off doing any kind of business with you (my god, customer support with you would be a right laugh!).

I'm not questioning YOUR honesty, just asking to see results. You have publically slandared me on 2 forums however, how do you expect me to react to you? You clearly know nothing about me, I don't supprt A123 at all (I am just testing a pack for a client), and much prefer the energy density of LiPo, however, when selling batery's cycle life is very important.

Now, if they can do 500 cycles then it is your job as the vendor to show the results, or do we have to teach you how to sell battery's as well as build ev's?


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## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

Jozzer, Jozzer, Jozzer, come on now, you started posting negative remarks on MY thread on the Endless Sphere Forum and now you started this game here. Take a hike, your comments are not welcome on my threads. You do not sell Turnigy cells, the only place to buy them is Hobby King, unless you are reselling and marketing them up. In that case you would know Turnigy cells pass their cycle life if used properly. Why don't you show your company that will prove you support Hobby King or Haiyin? 



Jozzer said:


> Ron you idiot, what are you talking about? I SELL turnigy battery's and put more of them on the race treack than you've had hot dinners. I have cycled tested a batch of cells, and run presale checks on every cell Ive sold (12000 to date).
> 
> I simply asked if you had results proving that the cells could do the stated number of cycles. I can tell you for a fact that previous cells from this manufacturer couldn't, and was keen to see if there was an improvement.
> If there was, and your claim is true, then there has been an improvement I would like to know about it. Why should I have results to prove you wrong? I didnt accuse you of anything, I just asked to see YOUR results! I don't have a use for cells of this high discharge rate (no-one excpet a drag vehicle has) otherwise I would buy one and test it myself...except you have thoroughly put me off doing any kind of business with you (my god, customer support with you would be a right laugh!).
> ...


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## Jozzer (Mar 29, 2009)

LithiumaniacsEVRacing said:


> Jozzer, Jozzer, Jozzer, come on now, you started posting negative remarks on MY thread on the Endless Sphere Forum and now you started this game here. Take a hike, your comments are not welcome on my threads. You do not sell Turnigy cells, the only place to buy them is Hobby King, unless you are reselling and marketing them up. In that case you would know Turnigy cells pass their cycle life if used properly. Why don't you show your company that will prove you support Hobby King or Haiyin?


So a question about cycle life, or suggesting that all cells should be tested before sale are negative remarks? I posted constructive questions, you posted the attacks!
I buy cells direct from factory, as do you, and have done so for nearly 3 years. I have discovered however that they muct be VERY carefuly tested before sale for EV use where they will be built into large packs.How long till you discover the same I wonder.. Did you think you were so special that you were thier only customer? I know about Turnigy cycle life bacause I tested them personally.....how do YOU know about their cycle life?
Since you don't seem to want to publish a graph for the Hayin cell, you leave me believeing you don't know how many cycles they really do, and don't even have the graph (or you do have it but are scared to be proven wrong perhaps).

My company is in openly displayed and has been known by users of both forums for the last several years. Not that I see why I should have to prove my credentials in order to ask you for a cycle life graph...

So once again Ron, the correct thing for a vendor to do when asked about cycle life is show a graph detailing the gradual loss of capacity over cycles, remarking on the conditions used to get the results. Can you do that or would you rather hurl some more abuse at me (quote from Ron at ES forum "loser, hater, wannabe racer").


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## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

That's funny, everyone else buying Turnigy cells agrees with me. Hobby King has a forum many years old, all Turnigy owners agree with me on cycle life, so you are fibbing again.



Jozzer said:


> So a question about cycle life, or suggesting that all cells should be tested before sale are negative remarks? I posted constructive questions, you posted the attacks!
> I buy cells direct from factory, as do you, and have done so for nearly 3 years. I have discovered however that they muct be VERY carefuly tested before sale for EV use where they will be built into large packs.How long till you discover the same I wonder.. Did you think you were so special that you were thier only customer? I know about Turnigy cycle life bacause I tested them personally.....how do YOU know about their cycle life?
> Since you don't seem to want to publish a graph for the Hayin cell, you leave me believeing you don't know how many cycles they really do, and don't even have the graph (or you do have it but are scared to be proven wrong perhaps).
> 
> ...


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## Jozzer (Mar 29, 2009)

LithiumaniacsEVRacing said:


> That's funny, everyone else buying Turnigy cells agrees with me. Hobby King has a forum many years old, all Turnigy owners agree with me on cycle life, so you are fibbing again.


 So your response to me asking to see discharge graphs is to say that I am fibbing? I don't get it Ron, do you WAN'T me to attack Turnigy/Hayin/yourself? you seem to be trying to push me into something....all I wanted was to see a graph and have some verification that your claim of >500 cycles is true.
Why are you so antagonistic?

Now if YOU had been around for years then you MIGHT have noticed that Turnigy 20C spec sheet used to claim just 60 cycles at full rated current and 100% DOD. They have definitly improved since then...I am trying to assertain how much.

Now, I DO have results, where are yours Ronald?
These graphs show cycles at 1, and 112 cycles. Capacity has dropped 9% already.
Standard practice is to claim cycle life until 20% original capacity is lost (in case you didn't know that).

Now if you can't manage to answer even 1 tech question, or show results of tests, then you are in the wrong business completely and should stick with your removals company instead! Why don't you simply ask Hayin to provide you with the graph? Where are the results of the "independant testers" you once mentioned? 

I'm sure you will just have another pissy fit and not give any more useful answers.
IF you don't produce a graph now however, we shall all know that the claim of >500 cycles is purely heresay, and this whole page has been a smokescreen..


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## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

Jozzer,

It was very nice and enlightening speaking with you by phone. I apologize for any remarks and misinformation I may have posted. 

In regards to the Haiyin 50C Ultra-Performance cells I am selling, the cycle life I am supporting was provided by the factory. The cell's amps I had confirmed by testing here in the USA, I am not sure of the failure rate of these new cells, but of the 3000+ I have sold not one complaint. I have tested with my own equipment over 600 cells with not one failure. 

Ron


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## Jozzer (Mar 29, 2009)

Thank you Ron. Indeed your a lot easier to talk to by phone than on the forums, perhaps that will change now you know I am not just a drag racer trying to pick a fight..
Sounds like your on your way to getting documented results for cycle life, I look forward to seeing that claim verified. What would be especially nice is if cycle life at lower power levels and normal charge levels (as would be used in a streetcar) was significantly higher than than lifespan of cells used for the purposes they were made (Drag racing). That would make these viable for many other kinds of EV use.

Steve


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## Jozzer (Mar 29, 2009)

Thank you Ron for sending me that spec sheet last night.

It clearly states 2 figures for cycle life on that sheet, one at 0.5C discharge, the other at 30C discharge. Care to print both values here Ron?

I'm currently recieving emails from Ron stating that he will ruin my reputatiuon and business, as well as ask Hayin not to supply me with product in the future simply because I asked him to "come clean" and tell the real facts.
I'm just trying to keep it real Ron, I love Hayins products too, but facts are facts, you can't make them up to suit yourself..

Sorry everybody for the forum drama..

Steve


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## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

Steve (Jozzer),

You are like night and day, your continuous emails sent today makes me think you are on some type of medication.

In regards to the cycle life it depends on how the cell or pack of cells are used. Some will get 500 cycles, some less. I will publish additional data on our website. I hope you can find someone else to harass. 

GLTA!


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## dreamviewer (Nov 16, 2011)

Hello Ron and Steve,
I guess you both are getting this into some kind of mess.
Just surfing around I saw this post. I had to register on this forum to post this comment.

Steve: The cells that i have now are different than the one used by you in the bikes named Turnigy. The packs that i have are now small in dimensions too and have seen better performance out of them. I have ordered IMax Btwin thing to test the cells I will mail you the new graphs soon.
I see here your main focus is on the number of cycles used. I guess your problem will be solved when the same same thing comes out in a product, but you will have to wait for sometime 

Ron: Lets take it with ease, performance proves everything. I have had good experience with Haiyin than with Kokam and also Thundersky 

I have even got energy density more than that was expected and also difference between the old and new Nano's is huge.

I will post the Graphs soon to clarify everything. Guys lets not fight on forums, its the place where Newbies surf with hope to find something good and informative rather than fight on any product.

I hope both of you have cooled down and lets hit the track or a product launch to prove stuff at its best 

TC
-Nishant K


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## Batterypoweredtoad (Feb 5, 2008)

dreamviewer said:


> Hello Ron and Steve,
> I guess you both are getting this into some kind of mess.
> Just surfing around I saw this post. I had to register on this forum to post this comment.
> 
> ...


Hi K Nishant,
Could you please introduce yourself and tell us your relationship to Turnigy and/or the battery sales field?

The question of cycle life is a big one. I am sure prospective buyers of ALL batteries are interested in real numbers. Ron, do you have cycle life information from the manufacturer that is different than what you have posted in the past?


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## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

All the facts are posted on our website, Steve has a thick head and is creating drama for no reason. I will show soon enough what these cells can produce.



Batterypoweredtoad said:


> Hi K Nishant,
> Could you please introduce yourself and tell us your relationship to Turnigy and/or the battery sales field?
> 
> The question of cycle life is a big one. I am sure prospective buyers of ALL batteries are interested in real numbers. Ron, do you have cycle life information from the manufacturer that is different than what you have posted in the past?


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## Karter2 (Nov 17, 2011)

Hi all,
I am researching battery packs for an electric race kart and came across the Haiyin cells which could work for me. ( high C and low weight ).
For racing i would keep the pack to minimum size to reduce weight, but would need to recharge between heats. with practice, heats, and finals i could be cycling the pack up to 6-8 times a day, so 15+ times over a weekend, and 30-40 times a month ...so cycle life is of interest to me.
The info on the Battery shop site does not really help as it only quotes 
Cycle life >500 on a 0.5C charge & discharge.
I would really like to know the expected cycle life at the full 50C discharge and max recommended charge rate (30A)
Does anyone have any "rule of thumb" as to how increased charge & discharge rates would reduce the cycle life ?

Thanks
*Charge Condition: *
(0.5C Charge and 0.5C Discharge)


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## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)




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## EVfun (Mar 14, 2010)

LithiumaniacsEVRacing said:


>


I'd suggest option #1 with modifications. I would recommend using off the shelf 1/4 inch (6.35mm) copper and 2 holes, each slightly smaller than indicated, perhaps about 0.170, for fastening with either 4mm or 8-32 screws. I would use thinner plate at either end of a stack of tabs, so neither screw heads or nuts where against the tabs. Cleanliness and the removal of oxides are next to godliness when assembling. The thinner plate at the screw heads could be a piece of angle aluminum if you feel the need to attach the bundles of tabs to the lexan (or other plastic) box cover for support (using nylon screws.)


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## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

I considered using two holes, but two 1/4 holes in a 30mm wide tab just removes too much mating surface. I am using thinner plates on the ends. Soon I will have pictures, busy building all the lexan boxes now. 



EVfun said:


> I'd suggest option #1 with modifications. I would recommend using off the shelf 1/4 inch (6.35mm) copper and 2 holes, each slightly smaller than indicated, perhaps about 0.170, for fastening with either 4mm or 8-32 screws. I would use thinner plate at either end of a stack of tabs, so neither screw heads or nuts where against the tabs. Cleanliness and the removal of oxides are next to godliness when assembling. The thinner plate at the screw heads could be a piece of angle aluminum if you feel the need to attach the bundles of tabs to the lexan (or other plastic) box cover for support (using nylon screws.)


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## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

8 battery boxes built for the drag car, the rear boxes 24" long 4" wide, the front boxes 15" long 4" wide. Will start designing the connections and BMS system. Pictures coming soon!


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