# planning stages for Subaru XT conversion



## Zukiru (Sep 22, 2008)

oh yeah and when I am done I want a tag that reads:
Pulse Pistol (in some variation of the words)


oh and this will be over time
and I can't afford 12 grand worth of batteries.


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## rillip3 (Jun 19, 2009)

Their naming convention makes it somewhat difficult tof ind weight information, but it looks like it's about in the ~2500 lbs range for curb weight, which is pretty decent. 50 miles is probably a little high for lead-acid batteries; 35-40 would be doable. This sounds like it would be a pretty run-of-the-mill conversion if you do that, you'd be looking in the neighborhood of $7k. If you went with lithium you could easily beat 50 miles but that doubles the cost, more or less.

Top speed is also important. You mention you're within walking distance to work, but how fast are the roads in your area? If you live in CA and you do a lot of freeway driving, you hve completely different voltage needs from someone just jauting around town like I'm going to be doing.


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## Zukiru (Sep 22, 2008)

rillip3 said:


> Their naming convention makes it somewhat difficult tof ind weight information, but it looks like it's about in the ~2500 lbs range for curb weight, which is pretty decent. 50 miles is probably a little high for lead-acid batteries; 35-40 would be doable. This sounds like it would be a pretty run-of-the-mill conversion if you do that, you'd be looking in the neighborhood of $7k. If you went with lithium you could easily beat 50 miles but that doubles the cost, more or less.
> 
> Top speed is also important. You mention you're within walking distance to work, but how fast are the roads in your area? If you live in CA and you do a lot of freeway driving, you hve completely different voltage needs from someone just jauting around town like I'm going to be doing.



I would like a high top speed but it's not a deal-breaker.
55 miles an hour would be nice.
40 miles range would be a good start.


the DL model which is the base weighs in at just under 2300 pounds dry


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## rillip3 (Jun 19, 2009)

Zukiru said:


> I would like a high top speed but it's not a deal-breaker.
> 55 miles an hour would be nice.
> 40 miles range would be a good start.
> 
> ...


55 is doable. 2300 lbs is extremely good, probably can get away with a smaller motor, adc 7", possibly a smaller pack. 120volt should definitely do that, might be able to pull of a 96v. I'm making mine with some flexibility; buying parts that will service multple voltages so that I can improve later on if need be. If you want to go that route, I'd say start with 96 and upgrade to 120 if needed. Youcould save a couple of hundred bucks on components by going straight for a 120 and just using the extra money to buy the bateries though. As long as the gross is over 3,000 lbs, I'd say you've got a great little conversion.


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## Zukiru (Sep 22, 2008)

and what I need are deep cycle batteries?

or will conventional car batteries do the trick?

my uncle has a junk yard and thee are lots of batteries around that I could recycle.

and I assume a 120 volt conversion requires 10 batteries?

the car is also one of the worlds most aerodynamic cars
and come equipped with manual steering that is a progressive gear rack and pinion.

I am tossing around the idea of the other car in the yard instead though.
87 Conquest TSi it will have more usable battery space.... it weighs 2900 though 
but it's partially apart already


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## rillip3 (Jun 19, 2009)

Zukiru said:


> and what I need are deep cycle batteries?
> 
> or will conventional car batteries do the trick?
> 
> ...


You want traction batteries, like those used in a golf cart. Traction batteries are also deep cycle, but traction batteries are more accustomed to the high current you'll be pulling down. You can turn the motor with normal car starter batteries, but you'll burn them out very quickly. They also will only move you a very, very small amount. 

Batteries are rated in a number of things, one being amp hours. Traction batteries are in the 100+ Ah range. Most starter batteries are in the 12 Ah or less range, because you're not supposed to use them al the time. 

Yes, you would want ten of them if you get twelve volt batteries, and then an eleventh, lighter-duty battery for the wipers, headlights, etc. Starter battery works fine there, that's what your car uses it for (in addition to starting) in the first place. Many choose motorcycle batteries because they are smaller and lighter, and you don't need a car starter battery's starting oomph. You could also get 6 volt or 8 volt batteries, but 12 is most commonly used.

A 2,900 lbs car is still dable, but you have to plan on a much more expensive conversion. You should also check thr gross weight; the heavier the car, the more likely it is already very close to the gross weight. Take the Eclipse for example; 2009 Eclipse is a curb weight of 3,500, gross of 4,050. Pretty tall order for an EV there.


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

Do you have a cost requirement? Have you considered lithium batteries?

If you go with lead acid batteries, then starting batteries will not do. You need to have deep cycle batteries or they will wear out very quickly.


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## Zukiru (Sep 22, 2008)

I took a turn down the battery section and learned a little of that.
thanks for the clarification


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## PatricioIN (Jun 13, 2008)

fyi.. my car was 2500lbs curb weight before conversion. Post conversion it is 3200lbs. It will go at least 70mph and I can get 35-45 mile range depending on speeds and driving style. I live in a very flat area. I used 15 8volt Interstate battteries.

Let's say you do a 120volt system. You will get more range with 20 6volts, less with 15 8volts and even less with 10 12volts. You have to decide how much weight you want to add to the car, how much money you have for batteries and how much space you have to place them.

I would say an 8" ADC motor and a 96volt system would probably be good for your needs. If you could get 16 6 volts in the car, you'd probably have be able to meet your range of 40-50 miles. Based on other 12volt conversions I've seen, I doubt you'll see anywhere near 40 miles with those batts. 

Trojan batteries are VERY common, US and Interstate are the same thing. Lead acid is cheaper up front, but you'll get much more range out of lithium if you can afford it. And they are lighter. Spend loads of time checking out other people's finished conversions for range, weight, cost, etc.. www.evalbum.com is a good place to browse.. If someone's range is way higher or lower than what similar conversions get (with similar components), I'd ignore that one.


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## Zukiru (Sep 22, 2008)

PatricioIN said:


> www.evalbum.com is a good place to browse.. If someone's range is way higher or lower than what similar conversions get (with similar components), I'd ignore that one.


i thought the same thing looking through the albums here

I love your ZX2 by the way. I wish I still had mine.
it died of engine failure, would have made a great EV.


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## Zukiru (Sep 22, 2008)

I am going with the TSi that way it the range is too low or the power sucks I won't be mad about my favorite car not being able to go anywhere.

and there's pretty good documentation on one of these done already


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## Nomad (May 8, 2009)

Zukiru said:


> I am going with the TSi that way it the range is too low or the power sucks I won't be mad about my favorite car not being able to go anywhere.
> 
> and there's pretty good documentation on one of these done already


Just as a heads up. LiFePo4 will cost you about 5500 for a 144v system and 100ah. 

I'm not sure what you are looking to spend but Look at the cost vs benifits. 

I'm not sure on the best price of T-125 but I know many people sware by them. I've found some for 140 each. and at 24 for a 144v system you'll need 3360. 

Anyone care to chime in for t-125 ah 260 vs LiFePo4 @ 100AH? I would say do to sag they are about the same due to Perks @ 50%.

If they are the same you are looking at an extra $2000 for 10 times the battery life. And the T-125's weight in @ 66lbs a piece, where lithium weights 7 lbs. each but you would need 2 to reach 6volts(6.4volts really).

Note.. I'm not a salesmen for LiFePo4 but I love them so much I should be.


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## Zukiru (Sep 22, 2008)

Nomad said:


> Note.. I'm not a salesmen for LiFePo4 but I love them so much I should be.


there is a golf cart place down the road here so I will go see what they have
maybe I cn get some second handers cheap to get me started.

this is going to be a very long term process.

not going to happen over a year, but maybe two.

my finances are limited and I will have to do things little bits at a time
it is something I have wanted to do for years. time to get on it!


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## rillip3 (Jun 19, 2009)

Zukiru said:


> there is a golf cart place down the road here so I will go see what they have
> maybe I cn get some second handers cheap to get me started.
> 
> this is going to be a very long term process.
> ...


Note that batteries will discharge (go dead) over time, so you really want to save up and buy your batteries at once. This way you're not paying for charging batteries that don't do anything (because letting them drain to dead hurts them) and you're not using up cycles recharging batteries that aren't doing anything (because they have a relatively fixed number of cycles). You ideally want to get all of your batteries at the same time as well, so that they're all the same "freshness." As they age they'll start to behave differently than a new battery, but if they all age together, they'll all act the same (more or less).

I would definitely go by and "window" shop to give you an idea of what you want to do, but I wouldn't buy a couple of batteries here and there.


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## Nomad (May 8, 2009)

Zukiru said:


> there is a golf cart place down the road here so I will go see what they have
> maybe I cn get some second handers cheap to get me started.
> 
> this is going to be a very long term process.
> ...


I'm thinking about putting it on credit. I took my EV money and put a down payment on a rental house. I didn't expect to have to come with 20% down..  and it zapped my 10k saved for my EV, but it is bringing in 500 a month in profit.


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## Zukiru (Sep 22, 2008)

Nomad said:


> I'm thinking about putting it on credit. I took my EV money and put a down payment on a rental house. I didn't expect to have to come with 20% down..  and it zapped my 10k saved for my EV, but it is bringing in 500 a month in profit.


I feel you, I helped my girlfriend get through college, and now she kjust needs to put it to work so I can have some fun.

batteries will be last on the list.
after some reading here I understand about life span and cycles

the LiFEPO sounds awesome!
but an extra 2 k is not around now
but maybe by the time I buy some batts!


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

Sounds like you guys definately have a good grasp on what matters.

Keep in mind that the price of lithium can be driven up a bit by shipping/duties depending on where you are. I live Relatively close to the port of vancouver, so that wasn't much too for me, but it can certainly creep up on you by the time it reaches your house. Shipping by truck over long distances from the sea port is a real killer.


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## Zukiru (Sep 22, 2008)

david85 said:


> Sounds like you guys definately have a good grasp on what matters.



thanks.

this site has a good grasp of that too, I think
nice friendly open minded folks here!
glad to be in the group!


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## Nomad (May 8, 2009)

david85 said:


> Sounds like you guys definately have a good grasp on what matters.
> 
> Keep in mind that the price of lithium can be driven up a bit by shipping/duties depending on where you are. I live Relatively close to the port of vancouver, so that wasn't much too for me, but it can certainly creep up on you by the time it reaches your house. Shipping by truck over long distances from the sea port is a real killer.


Thats true.. but the price should be falling for lithium. I atleast hope it does.. I'm a year out before I buy batteries.


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## Zukiru (Sep 22, 2008)

here's the car I'll be doing

no rust worth mentioning and great interior!


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## rillip3 (Jun 19, 2009)

looks good, other than it's lifeless, soul-sucking gaze!  I never realized how important headlights are to the aesthetics. But that's a cheapo fix, should be a really nice car when you're done!


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## Zukiru (Sep 22, 2008)

ha! I already have a hater!
http://japanesenostalgiccar.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=5356


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

Zukiru said:


> ha! I already have a hater!
> http://japanesenostalgiccar.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=5356


Yeah, you have to be prepared for reactions like that sometimes. Generally the younger street tuner crowd seems to take offence to anything that doesn't burn premium unleaded. I personally can't stand the sound of a cherry bomb muffler behind a 4 popper but you don't hear me complaining, lol.

Patrick had some negative reaction like that on a ZX2 forum if I recall.

I spend time on forums where most of the guys drive 3/4 ton diesel trucks, but they seem to be a bit more mature and even show a genuine friendly interest in my EV projects if the topic comes up in passing. Maybe its all the old timers there that keep things civil (or the diesel fumes....I dunno).

One thing I can tell you is we don't flame much around here.


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## Nomad (May 8, 2009)

david85 said:


> Yeah, you have to be prepared for reactions like that sometimes. Generally the younger street tuner crowd seems to take offence to anything that doesn't burn premium unleaded. I personally can't stand the sound of a cherry bomb muffler behind a 4 popper but you don't hear me complaining, lol.
> 
> Patrick had some negative reaction like that on a ZX2 forum if I recall.
> 
> ...




FLAME FLAME FLAME!!

Wow... they locked your post? Thats retarded.


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## Zukiru (Sep 22, 2008)

Nomad said:


> FLAME FLAME FLAME!!
> 
> Wow... they locked your post? Thats retarded.


the guy is an ass...
I have seen him on another forum

he was rude to me then too.

he's probably masking a size issue. 

I am sure the post was locked over his asinine comments 
I am waiting to hear back from a mod 
and have asked my "friend" to just stay out of my threads.


I love cars... personally I like a cherry bomb behind a 4 popper 
and a stock muffler on a 3 cyl.....

I just like creative cars that people drive!


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## Zukiru (Sep 22, 2008)

rillip3 said:


> looks good, other than it's lifeless, soul-sucking gaze!  I never realized how important headlights are to the aesthetics. But that's a cheapo fix, should be a really nice car when you're done!



I took my h4 housing out of there for the Subaru 

I will have better H4 housings for the car in the near future
or maybe fixed aero replacements.

looking for a good name for the project...

I was thinking something like quazar 
since it's an electric star... lol


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## PatricioIN (Jun 13, 2008)

It's funny... I did have a lot of negative and downright stupid comments in the thread I started in the zx2 forum.. but I was impressed by the number of people who came to my defense as well! And after the project was finished, all the negative stuff stopped pretty quick. Still, the zx2 forum was a good place to get general, practical info on the donor car.

What's really funny is that when the local news story aired, there were over 14 pages of comments on their website. People really got worked up over this story... same old stuff "you can only go 40 miles" "what if you forget to plug it in?".. that sort of thing. Again, an amazing amount of people stood up for the EV idea and the project.


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## Zukiru (Sep 22, 2008)

I won't be talking about that on that forum again till it runs.


ha! they all were so cool about old cars I figured they would get it.
but alas it's not a 4g-buncha numbers. 



I have decided that since I have the Subaru
and the suzuki

I should just build this the best I can for now.
if it goes 20 and and can get me 2 miles a day that's enough to go to work in it!

I just wanna ride with no gas!
I am going to start selling the old ICe parts the car is getting more uncommon these days.
so the parts should be worth some cash.


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## Zukiru (Sep 22, 2008)

planas are still unfolding and changing
I may go with a lighter car

I like the idea of spending less and having a faster car
I like small cars anyway

would two of these be enough for a 96 volt EV?
http://www.evcomponents.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=H4810
seems not spendy or heavy enough 
considering all I have been reading.


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## rillip3 (Jun 19, 2009)

Zukiru said:


> planas are still unfolding and changing
> I may go with a lighter car
> 
> I like the idea of spending less and having a faster car
> ...


Yes and no. Two will make 96 volts, in series. But they're only 10 Ah. Most EVs use hundreds of amps, say, 200-350, while maintaining decent speed. Even at 3C you're looking at 30 amps. You'd have two wire them in pairs to get enough oomph. Each pair would be in series, and then the pairs would be connected in parallel. At 349 ea, that's 698 for a pair, and you'd need at least four or five pair I think. Also, there's no indication of what the battery chemistry is. Just looking at it, it seems like some sort of lithium battery, but the 2000 cycles at 70% DoD seems like a really, really conservative number for LiFePO4, and just outrageous for any sort of lead acid. 

I would e-mail them and ask about your specific goals, they should be able to help you size the pack and answer those sorts of questions, but it's a yellow flag in my book not to have that information right up front.

Edit: going back to the main store, I see they are LiFePO4. But their prices look outrageous. If you contact Dave on the board, he has a post in the batteries section on page two, about ordering a new bulk order for $1.10/Ah. That's $11.00 for a 10 Ah batter, and they're charging $17. And again, 10 Ah is really innapropriate for this application, you want at least 60 Ah, and that will give a pretty short range, maybe 15-20 mi, but you indicated you were okay with that, so it shouldn't be a problem.

Edit 2:
This is more like what you're looking for:

http://www.evcomponents.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=SE60AHA

You might be able to even get away with this:

http://www.evcomponents.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=SE40AHA

But notice that the prices are now "too low to list." Mmhm.... 1.10 /Ah x 60 = 66.00 x 4 for a 12v = $264.00 for one 12v. And they were charging about 50% more than 1.10/Ah on the other, so more like $396, would be my guess. For ONE battery. Lithium is good on price because they can last 4-6x as long, but they also cost about 3-4x as much. And you'll have to include shipping and some significant wait time from Chinese delivery. 

This is just my own opinion, but I am doing a similar conversion, though a lighter car and mroe range desired. I am going to buy lead acid; I've seen as cheap as $130 for a 12v 80 Ah. And I can pick them up in town rather than pay shipping. With the money I save over the next four to five years they'll last me, I can save up for lithium ions if I want them at the end.


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## Zukiru (Sep 22, 2008)

rillip3 said:


> Yes and no. Two will make 96 volts, in series. But they're only 10 Ah. Most EVs use hundreds of amps, say, 200-350, while maintaining decent speed. Even at 3C you're looking at 30 amps. You'd have two wire them in pairs to get enough oomph. Each pair would be in series, and then the pairs would be connected in parallel. At 349 ea, that's 698 for a pair, and you'd need at least four or five pair I think. Also, there's no indication of what the battery chemistry is. Just looking at it, it seems like some sort of lithium battery, but the 2000 cycles at 70% DoD seems like a really, really conservative number for LiFePO4, and just outrageous for any sort of lead acid.
> 
> I would e-mail them and ask about your specific goals, they should be able to help you size the pack and answer those sorts of questions, but it's a yellow flag in my book not to have that information right up front.
> 
> Edit: going back to the main store, I see they are LiFePO4. But their prices look outrageous. If you contact Dave on the board, he has a post in the batteries section on page two, about ordering a new bulk order for $1.10/Ah. That's $11.00 for a 10 Ah batter, and they're charging $17. And again, 10 Ah is really innapropriate for this application, you want at least 60 Ah, and that will give a pretty short range, maybe 15-20 mi, but you indicated you were okay with that, so it shouldn't be a problem.



thanks! I am reading but a lot of it is being difficult to soak in.


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