# Why dont more people use NiCads?



## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

The are a lot harder to get usually. Do you know any sources or prices?

The memory effect is a bit of draw back, but apparently that can be managed with proper maintenance.


----------



## mfroniewski (Dec 17, 2008)

So it's basically just availability and the memory effect? hmm, memory seems managable with discharging... Now I gotta find a source... Maybe Saft sells to normal people... (unlikely)


----------



## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

The flooded 1.2V single cells seems to be the way to go. A member here managed to score an aircraft starting battery. 48V I think. The reserve capacity was not enough to power a car by itself, but if you found enough of them, it could be viable and would last better than lead. The flooded NiCads are said to be very long lived.


----------



## mfroniewski (Dec 17, 2008)

Yeah, as far as the longevity, I've seen about 20 years... the only spec in terms of cycles said 600,000 cycles... Is this plausible???


----------



## Guest (Dec 20, 2008)

From what I recall from my searching Flooded NiCads don't have a memory problem. Only the solid ones like your little batteries for flashlights and other electronic goodies. I'd like to go with the NiMH whether small batteries or large format. 

I'd love some flooded NiCads. I have my local battery recycler looking for me. 

Pete : )


----------



## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

Actually the battery company that I ordered my LiFePO4 battery from has a line of large wet cell NiCads and even the older Nickel Iron batteries. I never asked for prices though. 

The explanation that I got for the memory effect is that while it does exist, it can be managed by carefully discharging it all the way according to the specs in a shop. Supposedly this is standard procedure for air craft mechanics.

I also read that they perform very well in cold climates.


----------



## Technologic (Jul 20, 2008)

mfroniewski said:


> Ive been looking alot into what batteries to use for my EV that I'm planning, and I stumbled across BB600s. So, I started looking into NiCads. Now I'm wondering why more people arent using them? It seems to me that vented NiCads last quite a while (used in light rails for 20 years?), you can use all the energy, because they like being discharged all the way, unlike lead acids. I understand that they are more expensive up front, but not by that much... Is it the whole memory issue? Do I not have my facts straight?
> 
> TL;DR Why dont more people use NiCads?


it took me awhile to find you guys a source for these, but I used my magical chinese searching powers and found one with large cells: 

http://www.made-in-china.com/showro...TpM/China-Nickel-Cadmium-Battery-GNC100-.html

I will contact them about price tonight... and possibly get a sample... I'll keep in touch... I personally like this battery a LOT from what I can read about it... very interesting (and very novel on this forum!)

PM me if you hear anything before I do.

The packs listed here are 100ah x 1.2v similar to NiMH (on the made in china page)

Here's a list of their products:
http://www.hmbattery.com/en/product_detail.asp?id=99

They apparently have a life cycle of around 500 cycles (similar to NiMH) which sounds reasonable... can we expect LA prices though is the question. Cadmium is actually far cheaper than lead in china (only about $1.40/lb for 99.95% pure). It's possible these will be cheaper than LA.... one can hope? perhaps we've inspired EVers if this works out. Holding my breath in anxiety 

http://www.recycleinme.com/ScrapResources/scrapmetalnews1970_details.aspx
Current cadmium prices FOB.


----------



## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

LOL, hi Technologic. (magic powers)

Here's the one I found from my end:

http://sinoriching.en.alibaba.com/p...ries/1_2V_100Ah_KPL_Ni_Cd_Pocket_Battery.html

Mine's bigger and he's got friends

http://sinoriching.en.alibaba.com/p...ries/KPL_20Ah_Ni_Cd_Ni_Fe_Pocket_Battery.html

Seriously, you guys want me to ask my contact about these?


----------



## Technologic (Jul 20, 2008)

david85 said:


> LOL, hi Technologic. (magic powers)
> 
> Here's the one I found from my end:
> 
> ...


Their home page, http://www.chinabatterycenter.com, had a contact on MSN (meaning they staff a translator for customers) good sign!

Trying to get ahold of them right now, if they're on. If they add me tonight it would be nice, since it's about 11am on Saturday there at the moment.

I've talked to an old chinese contact I used years ago (for speaker parts) and he checked on this company, it's quite large, at least for a battery company, could be a good sign.

Edit: Killer this factory is in Jiangsu, very happy with that fact, this place likely will have the cheapest prices you can find for these batteries no matter what (Jiangsu province is near/in Shenzhen, the cheapest taxed port FOB I know of, roughly 10% less than anywhere near Shanghai or Guangdong from my experience with ferrite/neodymium orders).


----------



## mfroniewski (Dec 17, 2008)

Technologic said:


> They apparently have a life cycle of around 500 cycles (similar to NiMH) which sounds reasonable... can we expect LA prices though is the question. Cadmium is actually far cheaper than lead in china (only about $1.40/lb for 99.95% pure). It's possible these will be cheaper than LA.... one can hope? perhaps we've inspired EVers if this works out. Holding my breath in anxiety


500 cycles? thats not much... they say its serviceable for 15-30 years... so do people span the 500 cycles over the 30 years, or is it 500 cycles before they have to be serviced? (servicing = add electrolyte/water?)


----------



## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

Didn't think it was that big a deal, this is who I ordered my battery from and I thought everyone already knew that.

Well, let me know what you come up with. If they give you the run around or something, I'll see if I can get some answers from my end. Doesn't cost me anything to ask.


----------



## Technologic (Jul 20, 2008)

mfroniewski said:


> 500 cycles? thats not much... they say its serviceable for 15-30 years... so do people span the 500 cycles over the 30 years, or is it 500 cycles before they have to be serviced? (servicing = add electrolyte/water?)


It's not that much per se, but a 500-1000 cycle life could prove to be cost effective (if at LA prices, way less than lithium for a much better life cycle).

David,

I didn't realize it was the lithium factory you used, however, it's still something to ask about IMO if you have more immediate contact with them.


----------



## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

Well, lets be realistic about the cycle life here. Does the average EV lead acid really reach 500 cycles in the real world? Also since these are nicads, they can be deep discharged much further without damage, and they deliver much more of their rated capacity in cold temperatures. The claimed operating range is -40C to +50C.

I've seen cycle life ratings in the range of 1000-2000. I don't want to assume too much yet however.

I'll ask for some specs on a 100ah cell.

At the end of the day it will still come down to cost.

EDIT: it will be sunday evening my time before I will hear any reply at the earliest.


----------



## Technologic (Jul 20, 2008)

mfroniewski said:


> 500 cycles? thats not much... they say its serviceable for 15-30 years... so do people span the 500 cycles over the 30 years, or is it 500 cycles before they have to be serviced? (servicing = add electrolyte/water?)


It's possible it could be refurbished? Not sure. These are used as starting batteries in aircraft apparently, it's possible it could last that long in that situation?

to comment on the life cycle figure wikipedia claims 2000 cycles is possible.

Also the "memory" characteristic is a simple one, at least for EV purposes.

You can read about it here... apparently many complied sources have provided no evidence of it actually existing any worse than NiMH are. They claim NiMH are cheaper than NiCd, however, no EVs will have access to NiMH for 5 years? minimum as I believe the patent doesn't lapse till then.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nickel-cadmium_battery#Memory_and_lazy_battery_effects


----------



## Technologic (Jul 20, 2008)

david85 said:


> Well, lets be realistic about the cycle life here. Does the average EV lead acid really reach 500 cycles in the real world? Also since these are nicads, they can be deep discharged much further without damage, and they deliver much more of their rated capacity in cold temperatures. The claimed operating range is -40C to +50C.
> 
> I've seen cycle life ratings in the range of 1000-2000. I don't want to assume too much yet however.
> 
> ...


Well the nickel powder sintering process is vaguely expensive (a guess it's not really that expensive though, since it's sintered at such low temps).

The best part about these batteries is the very low internal resistence due to micron sized faces to absorb electrons from the sintered powder.

Cadmium prices have dive bombed recently (losing 200%+ of it's value in the last 4 months). Wikipedia claims 1000-2000 cycles which is far far better than LA, and up there with LiFePO. There's a few issues with short circuits possibly exploding, but LA's can also do this. 

The EU has banned these batteries from use.


----------



## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

Yeah I skimmed over that wiki page just now and found some of that info too. The EU also tried to ban lead acid batteries recently too but couldn't quite pull it off. I don't think the chrystal fomation is that big a deal, because they are used as backup power and I found one site that offeres a 20 year warranty on their NiCads, hang on, I'll see if I can find and post it.

I fired off the Email to my contact at Sieden. We'll see what happens. I guess this is something else I'll have to read up on. All this time I though NiMH was the way to go with nickel based batteries, but if this is all that's available its worth at least taking a closer look at it.

They also have nickel iron batteries if you are REALLY concerned about never having to replace the battery ever again.


----------



## mfroniewski (Dec 17, 2008)

Technologic said:


> Well the nickel powder sintering process is vaguely expensive (a guess it's not really that expensive though, since it's sintered at such low temps).
> 
> The best part about these batteries is the very low internal resistence due to micron sized faces to absorb electrons from the sintered powder.
> 
> ...


The EU banned NiCads? whats the EU?

And whats an average cycle life of lead acids? Assuming it is the same as NiCad at 500, then if NiCads are 2x the price per watt/hr, then it would break even, because Nicads get drained all the way, where as LA is only half... Am I right?


----------



## Technologic (Jul 20, 2008)

I found this link to a car almost 10 years ago using NiCAD batteries, for a 70 ish mile range... recorded and driven for 4 years!

http://www.evdl.org/docs/connecticut-nicads.pdf

Very interesting... records kept every day seasonly... I've read through it and it's very good information, it appears that 80%+ DOD was reached after 500 cycles of charging, possibly this has been improved since then?


----------



## Technologic (Jul 20, 2008)

mfroniewski said:


> The EU banned NiCads? whats the EU?
> 
> And whats an average cycle life of lead acids? Assuming it is the same as NiCad at 500, then if NiCads are 2x the price per watt/hr, then it would break even, because Nicads get drained all the way, where as LA is only half... Am I right?


Lead Acid (flooded) have a life span of 200-300 life cycles before 60% DOD (near unusable)... I could easily see these reaching 1000+ cycles considering the engineering paper I just linked... it's VERY interesting... 

It appears to offer quite a lot of very ... well lithium ion levels of performance. 4 years of use and it seems that it stayed near 80-85% DOD (after 500 ish cycles)  And that was on battery tech that's 10 years old now.

EU = European Union


----------



## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

Found it: http://www.sbsbattery.com/subpage_index.php?_subp_=152

first 5 years is 100% replacement, then the rest is pro rated.

Thats a good find, Technologic. I saved it to file for later reading.


----------



## mfroniewski (Dec 17, 2008)

Technologic said:


> EU = European Union


So they're still legal to use in the USA, right?


----------



## Technologic (Jul 20, 2008)

david85 said:


> Thats a good find, Technologic. I saved it to file for later reading.


His seasonal charts are so promising, that he's almost got me convinced NiMH is a joke in comparison... it is rare that we have such examples in the EV community, and I just stumbled across this (seemingly PHD) paper.

I'm quite convinced that you could see 100k miles out of a proper 70-100 mile range pack of these... if not higher. He's not only meeting his guess of 70 miles, he's often exceeding it (even after 30k miles... he's still averaging over 70 miles per charge off of his 74 miles per charge he started with in 1999)

I love this guy who did this paper .


----------



## Technologic (Jul 20, 2008)

Well luckily the factory I linked is open on saturdays...

I've gotten a few product sheets you guys are free to look over them.

Sintered batteries are def gonna be worth the money I think, considering the differences...


This battery is a 1.2v x 100ah NiCd, standard, cheap, battery. I have no idea what the price is yet. I will know soon.

13wh/kg for these smaller batteries.  very heavy.

http://www.2shared.com/file/4489463/c1140389/product_character.html (have to scroll down till it says in really fine print "save file to PC")

The sintered version of this battery is a 1000 cycle one... and weighs HALF once filled.


----------



## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

Yeah the size limit got in my way when I wanted to post tech pages one the forum. Seem a little silly considring how big the photo size is allowed to be


----------



## Technologic (Jul 20, 2008)

This sintering method seems to increase temp useability, possibly eliminating a lot of the summer range issues that the paper I linked previously had. Not to mention they appear to be cheaper in upwards of 200ah packs.


----------



## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

Thats strange, Emily is working today - er, tomorow that is (saturday over there).

Tells me that there is little price difference between LiFePO4 and NiCad, but that they are usable in EVs.

I'd still like to know the energy density before passing judgment, but unless there is a cost advantage I don't see this as being that great a deal.


----------



## Technologic (Jul 20, 2008)

david85 said:


> I'd still like to know the energy density before passing judgment, but unless there is a cost advantage I don't see this as being that great a deal.


Seems to be maxed at about 40wh/kg ish... in the largest packs I can find.

I will get a price list and we can examine it for ourselves... if it's not 0.25/wh (ie. $100-120 for a 200ah pack), lithium it is  Especially for the weight reduction (it matters more in my custom 500 lb car application than in a normal car I guess)


----------



## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

Agreed. If nothing else this will end up being an exercise in due diligence.

LOL, that wikipedia page states up to 150wk/kg!


----------



## Technologic (Jul 20, 2008)

david85 said:


> LOL, that wikipedia page states up to 150wk/kg!


I honestly wish.... I like the idea of these batteries, their charts tend to make me feel "snugglier" with the decision than lithium but god it's just the WEIGHT argh.

I'm having a hard time understanding why some of the weights from this company are so high. a 1000ah 1.2v pack weighs 72kg filled  

I'm just sitting here trying to figure out, how water + cadmium (which is only 8.92 g/cc) weighs more than lead and acid 

Still the weight of a 8kwh pack is 668lbs with the sintered batteries they make. *sighs* I'm going to bed, another night of sleep lost to the Chinese.


----------



## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

I guess that explains why they're always a day ahead of me LMAO!!

Seems to me these batteries are intended more for telecommunications and stationary back up power where durability is everything and energy density is nothing. They make lead acid batteries this size and weight in single cells too. You don't want to know how much those weigh! I'll see if Emily can tell me anything more encouraging.

Well I was going to look through that paper a little more closely, but maybe I should get some sleep (12:30Am here and probably digging out of snow tomorrow). Since you are starting to make up words like "snugglier", you should probably crash too.

g'night


----------



## mfroniewski (Dec 17, 2008)

These ones seem to be much better as far as weight... 

http://www.saftbatteries.com/Produit_STM___High_energy_module_for_traction_293_44/Default.aspx#DL2


----------



## DIYguy (Sep 18, 2008)

Technologic said:


> His seasonal charts are so promising, that he's almost got me convinced NiMH is a joke in comparison... it is rare that we have such examples in the EV community, and I just stumbled across this (seemingly PHD) paper.
> 
> I'm quite convinced that you could see 100k miles out of a proper 70-100 mile range pack of these... if not higher. He's not only meeting his guess of 70 miles, he's often exceeding it (even after 30k miles... he's still averaging over 70 miles per charge off of his 74 miles per charge he started with in 1999)
> 
> I love this guy who did this paper .


His pack being 100Ah at 156 V and he made trips as long as 130 miles...


----------



## Technologic (Jul 20, 2008)

mfroniewski said:


> These ones seem to be much better as far as weight...
> 
> http://www.saftbatteries.com/Produit_STM___High_energy_module_for_traction_293_44/Default.aspx#DL2


 
Far better, as far as using them for hybrid vehicles like it says, I dunno if companies would want to, you need to look for overall lighter ones in china IMO, not in europe or the US. I didn't receive any pricing last night, but I expect to sometime soon.


----------



## Technologic (Jul 20, 2008)

DIYguy said:


> His pack being 100Ah at 156 V and he made trips as long as 130 miles...


I noticed that as well... very cool paper


----------



## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

Well I got the info, looks like it won't work well for EV traction. Way too heavy.

http://www.chinabatterycenter.com/Product_s.asp?sid=6

I was not given an exact price, but it seems that the NiCad batteries are indeed more expensive than LiFePO4.

Saft has always had a great line of battery, but like most companies of its caliber, it refuses to sell to end customers. Their batteries seem to be intended specifically for mobile applications where these other ones are not.

Sounds like that paper is worth reading....


----------



## Technologic (Jul 20, 2008)

david85 said:


> Well I got the info, looks like it won't work well for EV traction. Way too heavy.
> 
> http://www.chinabatterycenter.com/Product_s.asp?sid=6
> 
> I was not given an exact price, but it seems that the NiCad batteries are indeed more expensive than LiFePO4.


That's just really surprising to me... the lowest 1.2v 100ah battery I can find of these, weighs 4.2kg filled. Less than Seiden but no where near as good as saft's


----------



## Technologic (Jul 20, 2008)

It appears that saft's NiCd is lighter than NiMH per kw...

http://www.amberjac-projects.co.uk/AJP-NiMH-100.pdf

Example of a 1.2v x 100ah NiMH battery. Too bad that no chinese manufacturer seems to get close to that power they have.


----------



## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

The chemistry seems to have the potential, but the product lines are either not set up or if they are they aren't accessable to us. But how is that really news....

The cycle life in the info I requested was as follows:

800 @ 100%DOD
1200 @ 50%DOD
2000 @ 30%DOD

Although Emily told me directly that it could be as low as 500 cycles.

From personal experience, NiMh tends to out perform NiCad in consumer sized batteries (sometimes by more than 4x) in wh/kg, but thats not an exact comparison and we know those will not last 20 years.


----------



## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

I've been reading through this paper and theres some real tasty tidbits in here.

For one thing I may have discovered part of the reason for the weight difference. The batteries used in this car use what is described as a "plastic bonded electrode". My understanding is that most industrial NiCad batteries use steel backed plates. If I'm right, this could explain at least some of the weight difference.

The motor used in the car really has me wondering why the hell solectria ever stopped making them. 12000 RPM redline and 92% efficiency is way better than the AC25 thats currently offered by Azure.

One of my favorite parts is the reverence to the *NIMH powered EV1. *224 miles with the same driving style that gave the NiCad car 130 miles (page 15) Guessing that the EV1 would probably get more like 120 miles in the real world.

The report is only 4 years old, but its a real time capsule.

Still have to read the rest


----------



## Technologic (Jul 20, 2008)

The unit price was just received on 1.2v x 100ah cells that are 4.2kg each...
Dimension(mm): 138*61*266
Rated Voltage(V): 1.2​Unit Price(FOB Shanghai): USD140/pcs

Cheers.


----------



## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

Um... ouch. You just hurt my wallet.

Would have been nice to have something to compete with LiFePO4, but I guess we don't have it yet.


----------



## Technologic (Jul 20, 2008)

david85 said:


> Um... ouch. You just hurt my wallet.
> 
> Would have been nice to have something to compete with LiFePO4, but I guess we don't have it yet.


 
Well I figured, either come back with something really high or something really low...

I almost half expected $30/unit haha

with a 500-1000 cycle range... it shouldn't be THAT much higher than Lifepo... very bad business strategy.


----------



## TexomaEV (Jul 26, 2007)

We are using Nicd's in our High School EV Project. We had 30ea, 6volt nominal units donated to us by NEETRAC. They have been in storage, never charged since around 1994, from the datecodes. I've only awakened a couple so far, and they seem to have come to life without a problem. I'm waiting on all the battery wiring/installation before awakening them, as I feel safer with the students working with them in the discharged state. Take a look at them at:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/mbarkley/sets/72157608431839748/


----------



## saab96 (Mar 19, 2008)

I just don't know what to make of nicad lifecycle reports. You hear about 20+ lifetimes but cycle life is low enough that if you drove it every day you'd never ever make the pack last that long. So all they'd have going for it is shelf life. An EV is for driving, not sitting in a garage.


----------



## DIYguy (Sep 18, 2008)

TexomaEV said:


> We are using Nicd's in our High School EV Project. We had 30ea, 6volt nominal units donated to us by NEETRAC. They have been in storage, never charged since around 1994, from the datecodes. I've only awakened a couple so far, and they seem to have come to life without a problem. I'm waiting on all the battery wiring/installation before awakening them, as I feel safer with the students working with them in the discharged state. Take a look at them at:
> 
> http://www.flickr.com/photos/mbarkley/sets/72157608431839748/


TexomaEV,

I'm very interested in flooded Ni-Cad battery performance. They seem to be very well suited to EV application especially for colder climates. They seem to be able to withstand severe "mis-use" like extreme over discharge and even reverse charge without damage. They can be stored in any state and have an extremly long life rating. They utilize potasium hydroxide as an electrolyte, therefore is not corrosive. The cycle life figures are a bit hard to figure out. I've seen numbers published that are faily low, like referred to here... but I have also seen them very high, like 2000 - 3000. There is apparently no shedding of plate material...this must contribute to a high cycle life??? Another very interesting point is that they are rated at the 5 hour rate typically and not the 20 hour rating like most motive batteries. This 5 hour rate is at 20 degrees C to an end voltage of 1.0 volts per cell (1.2 nominal) This is pretty significant I believe. I'm very interested to see how your performance actually is. I believe that you will be able to revive them without consequence. 

There seems to be only a couple of viable sources (that I know of), one being Saft. The Chinese manufacturers appear to produce a lesser quality/energy density. I live in Canada and the cold weather performance has me very interested. Operating temperatures are quoted at -4 to 131 degrees F with storage temps as low as -22F. They are available in different plate designs ranging from high current/short time to lower current/longer times (thick plates).

Unfortunately, they are very expensive. The cycle life number is the big question for evaluation of true "value". I've been quoted 15 - 25% reduction in price for volume orders. (not sure of quantities referred to here yet). 

Interesting. How far are you from driving this EV?

Can you tell me the dimensions and weight of this battery?

Check this out.... http://www2.ald.net/~roden/ev/pages/saft.htm

Regards,
Gary


----------



## DIYguy (Sep 18, 2008)

Another interesting read....

http://www.evguide.nu/ab150000.html

cheers


----------



## TexomaEV (Jul 26, 2007)

DIYguy said:


> TexomaEV, Interesting. How far are you from driving this EV?
> 
> Can you tell me the dimensions and weight of this battery?
> 
> ...


I hope to be driving the Bonham ISD, EV by the end of January. Time will tell, we've just now run the motor/transmission while on the workbench with 12vdc, and shifted through all the gears to make sure the transmission and motor are working with each other fine. Next is to stab it back into the pickup, and start putting it all back together as an EV. We still have to commission the Nicad's also.

They weigh in the 60-70lb range.


----------

