# Ignition specifics



## jlsawell (Apr 4, 2008)

Can someone give me a hand understanding the wiring setup for the ignition key?

The 12v electrics battery already goes to the + of the ignition, and the pot box, heater switch and main contactor come off the other side.

My question is, how are these wired into the ignition cradle thing? Are they all connected to the (3 - on) so the motor starts when the electrics are activated, or to the (4 - start) so you can have the electrics on without running the motor? If it's 4, how to you keep the motor running once the key springs back to the "on" position?

This is what I'm thinking a solution could be: a missile-type switch to separate the motor from the electrics, so you get in, push the key in and turn it to (2) to disable the steering lock, then turn it to (3) to turn on the electrics (but the motor won't start). Normally (with an ICE) you would turn it to (4) to kick over the starter motor, but instead you flick the missile switch and the main contactor closes and the motor sings into life.

Can anyone see a problem with this setup? What are you guys with operational EV's using for ignition?

Any help appreciated.








Pic won't work so here's a link:

http://bp0.blogger.com/_eWvBTiRcDHo...ACA/y-X4ZoURu-U/s1600-h/Ignition_Original.jpg


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## Coley (Jul 26, 2007)

Quote:
"This is what I'm thinking a solution could be: a missile-type switch to separate the motor from the electrics, so you get in, push the key in and turn it to (2) to disable the steering lock, then turn it to (3) to turn on the electrics (but the motor won't start). Normally (with an ICE) you would turn it to (4) to kick over the starter motor, but instead you flick the missile switch and the main contactor closes and the motor sings into life."

That is how I have mine wired, except the motor doesn't "sing to life", until you press the accel pedal and a micro switch, on the pot box, turns on the main contactor, which in turn, gives life to the controller.
Then, the motor sings.....

My missile fire switch is the one Radio Shack sells with the flip-up red cover.


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## jlsawell (Apr 4, 2008)

Coley said:


> Quote:
> 
> That is how I have mine wired, except the motor doesn't "sing to life", until you press the accel pedal and a micro switch, on the pot box, turns on the main contactor, which in turn, gives life to the controller.
> Then, the motor sings.....



And do you get a wiring suggestion with the motor documentation? Or do I need to find a local engineer/mechanic to help me set it up?


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## e_canuck (May 8, 2008)

Hi Jlsawell.

Ok.
Attention people with PHDs: non electric guy talking electricity.

The way I see it. And the way I will design mine.

You have the contactor powered through a relay. Said relay get power from the accesories. Power on, only with the key on. After the same relay you have a line that goes back to where the relay is powered.

You take the line that would normaly go to the start relay in the ICE configuration and connect to your relay. So...

key off no power. Key on: 12V available everywhere exept the contactor. You hit Start with the key. The relay close, the contactor is powered. You release the key. The relay is still powered through the line that goes back to where it is powered, so it stays on.

When you turn the key off. All goes dark the relay opens the contactor is unpowered.

Does that work?

Dp


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## stormcrow (May 28, 2008)

I may be missing something, but there are usually 4 settings on the ignition switch; 1-off, 2-acc, 3-on, 4-start. Off is off. Acc is accessories, like the radio, lights, ect. On is to have both the accessories and the engine running. Start sends some juice through the starter to turn the engine over. Since you dont want the starter on all the time, when you let go of the key, it goes back into On.
So I would think you could just keep all the accessories wired up exactly how they were and just hook up your contactor to the On position of the ignition. That way when the key is turned to On, both your lights and radio would be on and your engine would be active. The only thing I havent figured out is if anything would happen when you move the key to Start. I wouldnt wire anything up to that setting, but i dont know what that would do to the contactor if you accidently turned it to Start.


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## e_canuck (May 8, 2008)

Hi.

You are correct. If you have nothing on the wire in the start position Then nothing would happend.

I am told that controllers fail in the full-on position. I would like to put the key on the on position without the motor possibly powered. When I select start, If the motor spin I would have another second to pull the diconnect.

DP


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## jlsawell (Apr 4, 2008)

Coley said:


> Quote:
> That is how I have mine wired, except the motor doesn't "sing to life", until you press the accel pedal and a micro switch, on the pot box, turns on the main contactor, which in turn, gives life to the controller.
> Then, the motor sings.....


I think mine has to me a little different, because I'm using an auto transmission and I need the motor to idle at about 180RPM. So mine (I think) will need to be:

1. Off
2. Steering lock & electrics
3. Motor on (via relay + contactor) but instead of going to the switch on the pot box, it goes to the missile switch. This way I can keep the motor on and idling just enough to keep the Torque Converter moving, but still have the pot give it volts when my foot asks for them.

Have I missed anything?


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## Nodd (Jun 6, 2008)

I didn't do my conversion so I'm not sure exactly how its wired but I can say how it operates.

IGN Off - everything is dead
IGN ACC - everything is dead
IGN On - everything is on including the contactor relay
IGN Start - does nothing

If your current setup has stuff working when the key is in the ACC position I don't see any harm in that although for safety reasons you probably don't want the contactor to be activated in the ACC position.


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## lazzer408 (May 18, 2008)

Nodd said:


> I didn't do my conversion so I'm not sure exactly how its wired but I can say how it operates.
> 
> IGN Off - everything is dead
> IGN ACC - everything is dead
> ...


Never-ever-ever think you can shut of your ignition switch (to cut the mc) in a run away condition. You could lock the steering wheel doing that (unless you took out the security pin). I've seen it overlooked before so I thought I'd mention it.


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## e_canuck (May 8, 2008)

Thanks Lazzer.
Good point.

When you say you will use the missile switch, what is it connected to?

I was playing with idea of an automatic transmission for a while.

The ways I figured to make the motor "idle"

- add a micro adjustment on the throttle cable, like the ones on bicycle, so the pot is alway a litle on with your foot off.

-Have a bolt mounted on the pot box , so you can ajust the lever's resting place and it ca'nt quite go to off.

-add a resistor to the pot, so it is never exactly zero. Or change the pot to a different value.

DP


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## lazzer408 (May 18, 2008)

Or just adjust your throttle ramp a bit slower to allow the trans to engauge. Save a ton of power.


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## Nodd (Jun 6, 2008)

lazzer408 said:


> Never-ever-ever think you can shut of your ignition switch (to cut the mc) in a run away condition. You could lock the steering wheel doing that (unless you took out the security pin). I've seen it overlooked before so I thought I'd mention it.


I'm a little confused. Are you saying that my IGN key setup is unsafe? I have a big honkin red breaker button next to the driver's seat to kill the power in the event of a runaway. I agree though that turning off the IGN wile rolling is a bad idea because it'll lock the steering column.


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## e_canuck (May 8, 2008)

Hi Nodd.
I think your setup is safe. I read Lazzer to mean that if you are moving, you should'nt switch the key to off. Just like in an ICE powered car. Of course on initial powerup, if the motor runs away, your hand is already there, do it.

One should have more than just the keyswitch to kill power.

Ca'nt wait to find out if you got your legal EVgrin.

DP


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## lazzer408 (May 18, 2008)

e_canuck said:


> Hi Nodd.
> I think your setup is safe. I read Lazzer to mean that if you are moving, you should'nt switch the key to off. Just like in an ICE powered car. Of course on initial powerup, if the motor runs away, your hand is already there, do it.
> 
> One should have more than just the keyswitch to kill power.
> ...


Yup. Use the ignition key to turn your ev on and off. That's fine. Just not as a safety switch.


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## Nodd (Jun 6, 2008)

Nodd said:


> If your current setup has stuff working when the key is in the ACC position I don't see any harm in that although for safety reasons you probably don't want the contactor to be activated in the ACC position.


Hmmm quoting my self here. Is that allowed? 

My thoughts on not having the contactor activated while in the ACC position for safety reasons, were because a driver may assume that the car is disabled while in that position. Wouldn't want someone pressing the accelerator while making out, parked at Lovers Ridge, listening to the radio, thinking it was okay to do so because the key is in the ACC position... ZOOM over the cliff they go... Splat! Sorry if I wasn't clear on that.

Only reason I'm clarifying this is that Lazzer408 jumped on my post, quoting it & then went off about "_Never-ever-ever think you can shut of your ignition switch (to cut the mc) in a run away condition... etc._" Good advice but I never suggested that the IGN should be used for an emergency shutoff. My fault probably for being vague.


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## kittydog42 (Sep 18, 2007)

Here is an example that I came up with. These are the kinds of schematics that I come up with for as part of my business. This uses both the Start position, as well as a 0-1K setscrew pot to adjust the idle.

Notes:
1. A resistor could be substituted for the setscrew pot.
2. There needs to be a pause of about one second between Ignition and Start. This is necessary so that the controller will not fault on HPD (high pedal disable).
3. The KSI input to the controller needs a voltage referenced to the B-. Full pack voltage or a voltage tap (if within the acceptable controller KSI input range) should be used with the KSI relay.
4. The main contactor needs to be on all of the time for an idle setup. Make sure there is some redundancy or failure backup (circuit breaker or another contactor for emergency shutoff).
5. Put other limits and shutoffs on the common ground lead of the Start Enable relay.


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## lazzer408 (May 18, 2008)

...............


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## kittydog42 (Sep 18, 2007)

Much better!


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## jlsawell (Apr 4, 2008)

Just an update - I got an ignition barrel from the wreckers today and played with it to sort out the wires.

Red goes to the battery, white to the electrics (2nd click of the key) and Black/White goes to the motor (3rd click of the key). Don't bother about 4th click because it's for the starter motor which we don't need.

There's a short and VERY rough demo video on my blog or you can view it larger here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2kA-OtBr2-o

Turn the volume down though since I'm no Steven Speilberg and I think the video narration is a bit loud.


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## Nodd (Jun 6, 2008)

jlsawell said:


> Just an update - I got an ignition barrel from the wreckers today and played with it to sort out the wires.
> 
> Red goes to the battery, white to the electrics (2nd click of the key) and Black/White goes to the motor (3rd click of the key). Don't bother about 4th click because it's for the starter motor which we don't need.
> 
> ...


Nice video. Very nice demo. I like your IGN kill switch addition. What exactly is that killing though? It looks like its only interrupting the low voltage system. If that's the case you probably also want to think about a kill switch somewhere in the high voltage system between your pack & the rest of the system. Just be sure you find a switch rated for high voltage.


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## kittydog42 (Sep 18, 2007)

Nodd said:


> Just be sure you find a switch rated for high voltage.


Or more likely, a relay.


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## Nodd (Jun 6, 2008)

I'm not sure what the rules are in Australia but here's a line from the official Connecticut (USA) electric vehicle requirements document:

_"The vehicle shall have a device which provides for the positive disconnection of the battery and which is operable from the normal operator position."_

Here's my setup:









This high voltage kill switch directly interrupts the positive cable coming from my battery box. I can reach the switch easily from the driver's seat.

I've not had to use it for emergency needs thank God but its a great comfort especially while I'm messing with the high voltage system. Makes disabling the entire traction system as easy as hitting the big red knob. Killing the IGN is one thing but any number of nasty things can go wrong under the hood. If you can kill the high voltage juice at its source, the battery pack, then no matter what goes wrong, chances are you'll be able to shut things down in an emergency.


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## jlsawell (Apr 4, 2008)

kittydog42 said:


> Or more likely, a relay.


Correct, this switch only turns off the relay power. I'm still saving up for my big honkin red button. That will go on the other side of the steering wheel near the radio.


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## kittydog42 (Sep 18, 2007)

An additional contactor can do the same thing. Some people also use a circuit breaker actuated by a push/pull cable. Finding a "big red button" that is rated for the required amperage can be expensive, plus it is hard to mount inside the vehicle (which is really where your redundant shutoff needs to be). The main point is, you should always have a redundant shutoff in addition to the main contactor, whether it is another contactor, a circuit breaker, or a switch.


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## jlsawell (Apr 4, 2008)

kittydog42 said:


> An additional contactor can do the same thing. Some people also use a circuit breaker actuated by a push/pull cable. Finding a "big red button" that is rated for the required amperage can be expensive, plus it is hard to mount inside the vehicle (which is really where your redundant shutoff needs to be). The main point is, you should always have a redundant shutoff in addition to the main contactor, whether it is another contactor, a circuit breaker, or a switch.


Hmmm....I think KiwiEV has a circuit breaker linked to a cable in the dash. I'll have to revisit his wiring diagram but I think that's a pretty good solution.

The reason for the missile switch is I need to bypass the switch on the pot box to get the motor to idle. Normally, the motor is off until you press a little on the pedal to make the switch click "on", but I need to have the motor idling at 200-odd RPM to give enough torque to the torque converter to keep the transmission pressure up just enough to get rolling.


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## kittydog42 (Sep 18, 2007)

I also attached an example wiring diagram earlier in this thread.


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## jlsawell (Apr 4, 2008)

Can someone using a Curtis PB6 help me out with the next step?

I need the motor to spin about 200-300RPM before I depress the pedal. I need this because the transmission needs some oil pressure BEFORE it will let me shift into reverse/drive.

Can I bypass the on/off switch in the bottom of the Pot box? Or does that little switch affect the signal to the controller?

I was thinking I would run the wire from the ignition to the missile switch and then to the contactor, rather than via the switch on the Pot. But do I need to provide power to the little switch AS WELL (to give the pot power)?

If I use a 1231 controller, how do I program it to produce 300RPM when the pot is a "zero" - does it come with an input device or something? Or do I need to turn screws with a screwdriver?


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## TheSGC (Nov 15, 2007)

jlsawell said:


> Can someone using a Curtis PB6 help me out with the next step?
> 
> I need the motor to spin about 200-300RPM before I depress the pedal. I need this because the transmission needs some oil pressure BEFORE it will let me shift into reverse/drive.
> 
> ...


Just don't use that switch at all. And place a 300 ohm resister in series with the pot box and controller. I ended up getting a PB5 potbox with no switch for my automatic because the switch is completely useless. But I honestly don't know if the controller will even allow you to idle the motor in this way, which is the reason why I decided to build my own controller.


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## kittydog42 (Sep 18, 2007)

The example wiring diagram that I attached to an earlier post in this thread shows how you would use another pot to set idle. You need to do it a specific way to not fault on HPD (high pedal disable). The only downside to the whole idle thing is that the contactor stays closed all of the time, so you definitely need another contactor for safety.


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## zemon1 (Aug 5, 2008)

ive read this whole topic having no idea what half the stuff you were talking about is, however all i really seem to need to know is what on earth a contactor is and why you need like 5 of them?


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## jlsawell (Apr 4, 2008)

zemon1 said:


> ive read this whole topic having no idea what half the stuff you were talking about is, however all i really seem to need to know is what on earth a contactor is and why you need like 5 of them?


A contactor is basically a remotely controlled switch. It separates the 12v ignition and electrics from the 144v battery to engine electrics.

When you turn the key, nice safe 12v is sent to the contactor. This energises a magnet which closes a gate. Like the Hoover Dam, this gate allows the massive 144v from the main battery pack to flow to the controller and thus the motor.

The alternative is to build the entire electrics to run off 144v and that's just too expensive and dangerous. Imagine a short circuit at the ignition key giving you 144v right up the arm...


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## jlsawell (Apr 4, 2008)

kittydog42 said:


> The example wiring diagram that I attached to an earlier post in this thread shows how you would use another pot to set idle. You need to do it a specific way to not fault on HPD (high pedal disable). The only downside to the whole idle thing is that the contactor stays closed all of the time, so you definitely need another contactor for safety.


Much obliged by that wiring diagram, kittydog42. Can you tell me what kind of pot I need for the idle? Do I need to shell out another $140 for a PB6 or can I use a much smaller Radio-Shack type? You know, the little circular ones with the stalk?


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## jlsawell (Apr 4, 2008)

full house said:


> Isn't that the ignition extension? you can view here for reference: http://www.freepatentsonline.com/5671624.html


Yes, I'm just using it to find out what wires to connect to the missile switch and pot box. I just don't want to buy another PB6 if I don't have to.

I'm even contemplating putting a screw into the pot box to keep the arm "on" 2 or 3mm - just enough to make the motor turn.


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## kittydog42 (Sep 18, 2007)

It can be any normal pot (preferably 1K), but one that looks like this is good since it has a lock nut over the adjustment screw, which is turned with a screwdriver.

http://www.alliedelec.com/Search/Pr...2A&R=7531145&SEARCH=7531145&DESC=RV4LAYSA502A


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## Coley (Jul 26, 2007)

I would not put a screw in the potbox, but I would get a 1970s A/C car idle solenoid. You could hook it up so that it comes on when the trans is put in gear. Then when you go to park, the motor will shut off. Much safer.


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## kittydog42 (Sep 18, 2007)

You don't put the other pot in the pot box. It mounts somewhere else as a separate component. The wiring diagram I provided switches between the two sources as the pedal is depressed. It starts with an ignition signal to prove no pedal for the HPD (high pedal disable) function, then latches another relay upon the starter signal. It needs a slight manual pause between ignition and starter to not fault on HPD. 

You need another contactor for safety since having an idle means that the run contactor is always engaged, not opening and closing with the throttle switch as it would without a idle.


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