# Rick's 1973 VW Super Beetle build



## ricklearned (Mar 3, 2012)

Several months ago I purchased a donor car and have been spending my time reading this forum and stripping the car and getting ready for the conversion. 

I am a 60 + retired financial executive. I have owned 4 VW’s over the years and in college my brother and I rebuilt the engine on a bug convertible. I have good mechanical skills and am an electronic hobbyist. Some time ago I installed a 3KW solar PV system on the roof of my home. I have also converted 2 bicycles to electric drive and six months ago I converted one of them to Lithium (48v Headway pack). My desire for more speed and utility led me to considering an EV conversion. 

I have no metal fabrication skills except for the ability to cut, drill or shape aluminum with a router.(derived from my woodworking skills) I have found a local source for aluminum plate and several resources for aluminum welding.

I hope initially to have a range of approximatley 10- 20 miles. I will probably start out with a 96v pack of about 100Ahrs. I expect to get 25 mile range for local driving. Phase two of my plan is to upgrade by paralleling another 100Ahr pack. At that point I should be able to take short trips of 40 miles on the freeway. My choice of 32 cells is driven by the investment I have made in some cellogs and a circuit board by rwaudio that will give me LVC and HVC. When I upgrade to the extra capacity I will probably purchase a high amperage charger and a BMS. In the meantime I can charge slowly with a couple of 48v Meanwells.

My initial budget to get the car running for phase one is $15,000. That includes the AC-35 system which I will pick up inin Ontario, California tomorrow. I ordered the motor and adaptor from Thunderstruck Motors in Santa Rosa CA. and recieved a lot of offline help from Frodus and Gottdi. I have received a quote for 100 Ahr CALB cells from Keegan Han and will probably commit that purchase by the end of June. Later in the year I will evaluate the budget for phase two. The car is currently grey primer with the rear fenders, apron and rear hood removed. I am also considering fiberglass fenders, apron, rear hood and trunk.


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## tomofreno (Mar 3, 2009)

Sounds like you've been doing your homework!


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## ricklearned (Mar 3, 2012)

tomofreno said:


> Sounds like you've been doing your homework!


I have learned a lot from this forum and all the helpful posts. I still have a lot more to learn.


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## Ziggythewiz (May 16, 2010)

Welcome, fellow bugger! I'd recommend going higher voltage (144), especially if you plan for highway use.


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## onegreenev (May 18, 2012)

Ziggythewiz said:


> Welcome, fellow bugger! I'd recommend going higher voltage (144), especially if you plan for highway use.


I will have to agree but 96 will do in a pinch. My little Ghia was 96 volts and it did quite well in the speed, just not the distance because of the lead. With the AC system being used you can go quite a bit higher in voltage. I'd plan on at least 144 volts if not more. Problem then becomes the charging situation. I can tell you about a nice DC DC that will work nicely at high voltages. 

I did a 77 MG Midget and ran that at 120 volts. That was nice. 

Pete


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## ricklearned (Mar 3, 2012)

Ziggythewiz said:


> Welcome, fellow bugger! I'd recommend going higher voltage (144), especially if you plan for highway use.


Thanks, I do plan on upgrading to the max voltage in phase two of my build. That is why I am putting off buying a big charger until I get the max voltage dialed in. I am somewhat limited by the Curtiss controller which in its current iteration is capable of 120v IIRC, I also didn't want to wait for the frequently touted 144v controller that is in the works. Most of my "highway" driving would be on I405 in LA which is notoriously slow, except early in the morning and late at night.


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## onegreenev (May 18, 2012)

What prompted the purchase of the AC 35 vs the AC 50


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## Ziggythewiz (May 16, 2010)

onegreenev said:


> I did a 77 MG Midget and ran that at 120 volts. That was nice.
> 
> Pete


Haha, just made the connection. What prompted the name change Pete?


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## ricklearned (Mar 3, 2012)

onegreenev said:


> What prompted the purchase of the AC 35 vs the AC 50


It is 2'' shorter and that will make my installation easier. I have some hills in my little beach town and the AC35 has more low end torque than the AC50. The AC50 has greater torque on the higher end but the only time I would need that would be for passing at highway speeds. My only highway is the freeway so I don't care about passing speed.
EDIT: On ramp approaches to the freeway are one area where I might need higher speed acceleration but that might be as simple as picking the right gear.


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## onegreenev (May 18, 2012)

Ziggythewiz said:


> Haha, just made the connection. What prompted the name change Pete?


Been using onegreenev for some time now. gottdi is an old user name I started using when I got my VW TDI. It was fitting then but no longer. I do still have my TDI. Nice cars. Mine's chipped and has larger injectors and still gets 42 to 46 mpg depending on how I drive. The worst I ever got was 36 mpg. That was with my foot glued to the floor for the entire tank. No range anxiety in a TDI. I hit just over 700 miles once per tank.

Best fuel mileage I got in that was 48/49. That was in serious hyper-mile mode.
Typical is 46 mpg (chipped)


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## clonezero (Oct 16, 2009)

Im right in the middle of my 1973 super beetle conversion. The AC50 will fit in ok with little problems. I am using rebirthauto adapter which is a very nice unit. Using onegreenev's suggestion of lowering the transaxle helped. 

Loosen the front mount disconnect the shifter linkage and remove the bolts holding the transmission in place, then lower it with a jack. Jack the motor from the bottom and line up in place and it should go right on. Then back the motor adapter back about 1 inch back from the transaxle and thread the studs (used threaded rod) put in from the back through the transaxle into the adapter. Seat the adapter to the transaxle and bolt tight. Replace and tighten the transaxle bolts/linkage. 

I have the starter hole cover done, made a nice polished aluminum back and bottom plates. Next step is to make a holder for the controller/heatsink and contactor/fusebox.

Good luck with your project. I am having lots of fun.


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## ricklearned (Mar 3, 2012)

I picked up my motor yesterday and my transaxle should be available later today. I had new seals installed in the transaxle. 

I was wondering about the starter hole. I think I will make a cover before I re-install the transaxle. It also sounds like it is easier to mount the motor to the transaxle before I re-install the transaxle.


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## clonezero (Oct 16, 2009)

Sounds like it would be easier to install all in one piece. Let us know how it goes.


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## Zak650 (Sep 20, 2008)

Trying to install it all at one time may not be a very good idea. remember the main frame "fork" that the transmission bell housing bolts to sticks past the halfshafts making an all in one install difficult. If you have the transmission out of the car it's pretty easy to check fit the motor and bolt it up with lots of room around it and make sure it all mates up well. Then just remove the motor and know ahead of time it will bolt up once the transmission itself is installed in the car.

Zak


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## onegreenev (May 18, 2012)

The idea behind the trick is to keep you from having to cock the motor in such a tight fitting area. The transaxle will just tilt down for you to mount the motor then tilt it back up into place. It makes for an easy install unless you actually have lots of room. With my 9" GE there is but an 1/8 inch gap between the body and end of the motor. Tilting the transaxle allows me to slip in the motor real easy with out binding or catching when the motor is at such a steep angle if I had not angled the transaxle down. By angling the transaxle you actually make a hard job easy. Removing the transaxle completely is more trouble than its worth. You'd need to remove the axles first. Not something to do under the car. 

Pete 


It really does not take much movement of the transaxle to get the job done. You will want two floor jacks but a jack stand for the trans will do in a pinch.


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## ricklearned (Mar 3, 2012)

Thanks for all the good input. My transmission wasn't ready yesterday so I will have to wait until Monday.

I have independent rear suspension so I will leave the half shafts off so they won't get in the way. I also removed the rear apron and rear fenders so I have lots of access. I will fit the motor to the transmision and then decide if I am going to do it in one piece or in stages. 

In the meantime I mounted the taper lock to the motor shaft and then had to remove it because it was too close to the motor and that made the flywheel scrape on the adapter bracket. I used a puller to remove it but the parts came off as one piece, so now I need to figure out how to pull them apart. I should have just pulled it up about .125 inch but too late now.


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## ricklearned (Mar 3, 2012)

I finally got the taperlock separatel and reinstalled with more clearance for the flywheel. 

Here are some pictures of the flywheel and the adapter plate. That is a VW flywheel that has been lightened and balanced. It only weighs 7lbs vs the stock weight of about 13lbs. The only negative is that I can't use my gland nut device that runs on the starter ring. The picture on the right shows the clearance that I worked so hard to get. 

This build has been a serial group of 1/8 " challenges. LOL


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## Ziggythewiz (May 16, 2010)

You're doing great! When I first started it took me a week or two to realize I had one too many 1/8".


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## clonezero (Oct 16, 2009)

Why did you go with a lightened flywheel? On my bug I had the flywheel and pressure plate ballanced. But not lightened. Was this a mistake?


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## njloof (Nov 21, 2011)

They say every pound off the flywheel is like 10 pounds off the frame.

My car already had an aftermarket aluminum flywheel, so I'll probably leave it alone.


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## Zak650 (Sep 20, 2008)

I'm thinking of turning an aluminum flywheel and then having it hard anodized for the clutch friction area since it's main purpose is to make shifting more "regular" and the slipping action isn't needed at all. It's either that or go clutchless.

Zak


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## ricklearned (Mar 3, 2012)

clonezero said:


> Why did you go with a lightened flywheel? On my bug I had the flywheel and pressure plate ballanced. But not lightened. Was this a mistake?


No, it wasn't a mistake. I had mine balanced also. I didn't want any vibration and I expect to take the motor to higher revs than the gas engine. According to the previous poster, I also saved the equivalent of 60lbs of body weight. I think it has something to do with not having to overcome the inertia of the flywheel when accelerating. The flywheel serves a purpose on an ICE but for an electric drive car it's only purpose is for the clutch.


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## Zak650 (Sep 20, 2008)

Weight should really be considered, think of it as replacing the weight with additional batteries, better acceleration, longer range. 

A few examples:
Starter motor 10 lbs
Spare tire 30 lbs
flywheel 13 lbs
rear seat 27 lbs
gas tank 20 lbs

Basically about 100 lbs in just a few items, it's all weight you don't have to drag up a hill or get moving from a dead stop. These items are about the same as 8 Calb180 cells.


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## ricklearned (Mar 3, 2012)

Here is the clutch plate I purchased. It has hardened and longer splines so I won't have the problem Corbin experienced. I also got a Kennedy 2000lb pressure plate


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## onegreenev (May 18, 2012)

I would not worry about a few extra pounds unless your going to RACE your car and really need that extra 1/100th of a second for the win. Really, what's that few extra pounds going to actually do to your speed and distance?


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## corbin (Apr 6, 2010)

ricklearned said:


> Here is the clutch plate I purchased. It has hardened and longer splines so I won't have the problem Corbin experienced. I also got a Kennedy 2000lb pressure plate


cool - where did you get that plate from?

corbin


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## ricklearned (Mar 3, 2012)

corbin said:


> cool - where did you get that plate from?
> 
> corbin


I got it from Scat, which is in my neighborhood, so I will called it.

http://www.scatvw.com/

Hopefully you got yours back together.


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## ricklearned (Mar 3, 2012)

I am a little behind in posting. After getting the adapter mounted to my motor I realized that the clutch return spring was broken so the next day I repaired that and mounted the motor to the transmission. Here is a picture of it just before I put it in the car.


I have since mounted the controller and begun wiring.


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## winzeracer (Apr 3, 2012)

ricklearned said:


> I am a little behind in posting. After getting the adapter mounted to my motor I realized that the clutch return spring was broken so the next day I repaired that and mounted the motor to the transmission. Here is a picture of it just before I put it in the car.
> 
> 
> I have since mounted the controller and begun wiring.


Looks like it is coming along. You are right about the inertia of the flywheel, less energy required to rotate the lighter flywheel which results in more energy transfered to the wheels. I am just about to take my final on rotational dynamics.


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## ricklearned (Mar 3, 2012)

winzeracer said:


> Looks like it is coming along. You are right about the inertia of the flywheel, less energy required to rotate the lighter flywheel which results in more energy transfered to the wheels. I am just about to take my final on rotational dynamics.



Good luck on your final. 

Come down to Hermosa Beach sometime and see my bug.


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## winzeracer (Apr 3, 2012)

ricklearned said:


> Good luck on your final.
> 
> Come down to Hermosa Beach sometime and see my bug.


Thanks for the good luck, it worked I got an A! Be in touch soon.


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## ricklearned (Mar 3, 2012)

I made some progress this week. I installed the motor, and completed the battery boxes. 

In the first picture you can see my temporary plywood breadboard. I have already moved things around a bit and it is a tight fit for the controller. I eventually will mount everything on a 1/4" aluminum heatsink but for now the plywood serves my purpose. I ran the motor at 100 rpms just to check my initial wiring. The PB 8 trottle is in the grey box at the bottom and the Spyglass display is sitting on top of it . The open grey box in where the throttle wiring connects to the controller wiring and serves as a pass through for the controller wiring that goes to the dash. (Spyglass display, menu button, forward and reverse switch)

The second picture is the passenger side battery box that will be beneath the seat. The notch is for the Scat seat bracket and that will limit my battery capacity in those boxes. ( I have a similar one on the drivers side) There are 8 12 volt 12Ahr batteries in there temporarily to test the system. Some came from a early bicycle project and the others came from a backup power supply that I charge from my solar system on my roof. I am probably two months away from acquiring the 100Ahr Calbs that I intend to put in those boxes and other places.

It has been a good week and it was great hearing the click of the contactor, the hum of the controller and the whine of the motor.


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## ricklearned (Mar 3, 2012)

I have mostly been working on my 12 volt wiring the past two weeks. I decided to abandon all the old wiring, so I am starting from scratch. I intercepted the key switch wires and used them to power a relay that distributes 12 volts to devices that are on when the ignition switch is on. That would include the contactor, and some displays. It is an interesting thought process to go through the circuits and decide which are powered by the ignition switch and which are always on. There are some typical uses out there. For instance the brake lights are always on, I presume for safety reasons. 

I have another 12 volt distribution that powers things that are always on such as the EMW EV Display. I made a box to house the Hall effect sensor and ran the wiring for the bluetooth sender to the front of the cockpit. the following picture is before I connected it up.


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## ricklearned (Mar 3, 2012)

My schedule for acquiring batteries changed significantly this week. As a result of this thread I jumped on an opportunity to buy some Winston batteries at $1.10 per Ahr.

I picked them up this morning in Harbor City, California, a short drive from Hermosa Beach. I have tested and inspected them and they all tested at 3.31 volts. 30 of them had sequential serial numbers and were in their original shipping container which was in very good shape. Six others were packed with the hardware. I purchased copper straps for an additional $3 per strap. The bolts and washers were included.


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## ricklearned (Mar 3, 2012)

Not much to report in the past few weeks. Did a little more on my 12v system and ordered a fuse and some braided straps from evtv.me and some more 2/0 cable and terminals from another vendor so I can assemble and hook up my pack and take a test drive. 

Currently in Northern California enjoying a visit with family and friends. 

Best to everyone on the Fourth. Looking forward to spinning a few bolts on my return.


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## ricklearned (Mar 3, 2012)

It has been a challenging few days. I returned after a great 4th of July holiday seeing friends and family in Northern California, and began connecting up my battery pack. I got it hooked up and wanted to see the wheels spin while they were still on jack stands. I was too lazy to connect up the 12volt system to my keyswitch and thought I could just push the spade connector onto a source of 12 volts. It worked a few times but my hands weren't all that steady and I could hear the internal relay/contactor on the Curtiss click a few times as I tried to make the connection. 

Apparently, this shortcut welded my Tyco, because I got the error code #38. I checked it out with my DVM and sure enough, without any power to the Tyco it had 111volts on both sides. I guess the Curtiss won't let the motor run when the contactor is welded so I was out of luck and out of pocket for approximately $100. I ordered a new Tyco contactor this morning from KTA and it should arrive in a few days. In the meantime I am going to make sure my 12 volt system is hooked up so I can use the key switch to turn on the contactor. I might also install a small toggle somewhere discrete so I can turn on the Curtiss when I am too lazy to go get the keys to the ignition. 

I will take this opportunity to finish the installation of the controller and other peripherals. I had previously mounted them on plywood so I could fiddle around with locating everything. In the meantime I have read that some form of cooling for the Curtis might prolong the life of the electronics so I went to my metal supplier and bought a piece of 1/2" aluminium to mount the Curtis and provide some kind of additional heat sink. 

Today was more rewarding than yesterday as I began working on my permanent controller installation. I will provide pictures later, but there is room for a chill plate and/or some heat sink fins if I need more cooling. I live in a beach community and it rarely gets above 75 F so I hope I will be ok with this approach to keeping the controller cool.


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## Ziggythewiz (May 16, 2010)

Don't forget the precharge. It's the lack of a precharge, not a key switch that welds a contactor.


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## ricklearned (Mar 3, 2012)

Ziggythewiz said:


> Don't forget the precharge. It's the lack of a precharge, not a key switch that welds a contactor.


IIRC, the Curtis controller is supposed to take care of the precharge inside the controller. They just didn't anticipate that someone would turn the key switch signal on and off repeatedly, like I did while trying to fit the spade connector on the source of 12 volts. I don't think one could repeat that on off cycle with a physical switch as fast as my shortcut did.


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## Ziggythewiz (May 16, 2010)

Oh, okay. Forgot you're on AC. I don't have one, but I know some people have the KSI tied in with the pedal. I suppose having the controller go on-off while driving wouldn't be as bad as the initial powerup as the caps would be charged, but it seems strange the controller would allow enough juice to weld the contactor.


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## ricklearned (Mar 3, 2012)

Ziggythewiz said:


> Oh, okay. Forgot you're on AC. I don't have one, but I know some people have the KSI tied in with the pedal. I suppose having the controller go on-off while driving wouldn't be as bad as the initial powerup as the caps would be charged, but it seems strange the controller would allow enough juice to weld the contactor.


I think the microswicth on the PB-8 prevents starting the motor with the pedal depressed. I think that is taken care of in the controller and is a safety factor. I just wired them according to the schematic and it works. 

Yes, I don't know the specifics of what might have happened, but I'm not going to take that shortcut again. My new contactor arrives tomorrow and I am going to have the key switch relay working by then. I have designed a lot of relays in my system so I don't put much current through the old VW switches.


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## alvin (Jul 26, 2008)

Hi Rick

Have you charged your pack yet? If yes ,what kind of charger and to what voltage did you charge? 

I got the same batteries and they are still in the boxes. They were all at 3.331 volts when they got here,now they are at 3.328volts. It has been 2 weeks now.

I am still doing some restoration work on the car. I am using floodies to move it around while working on it.

Alvin


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## ricklearned (Mar 3, 2012)

alvin said:


> Hi Rick
> 
> Have you charged your pack yet? If yes ,what kind of charger and to what voltage did you charge?
> 
> ...


Alvin,

Yes I charged my pack yesterday. I installed 32 cells in two packs of 16 cells under the seats of my VW. I am using two Meanwell 48 volt power supplies in series. They can be adjusted and I have them set for a total voltage of 117 volts (3.65 per cell) I never saw the Amps decrease from the 11 amps I started charging with. They are now resting at 3.43. I am monitoring them with cellogs using a cellog board RWaudio sold me. I have one cell in the group that got to 3.70. My power supply won't go any higher so I think I am being conservative. 

I have an EV Display which I bought from EV Werks and I can track Amps, Volts and Amphours. I also use a light objects programmable voltmeter that I can set to turn off the charger when it reaches a particular voltage. 

I should add that I did cycle one of my unused cells with my Power Lab. I don't have the voltage detail but I got 47 Ahrs into one of the new cells and on discharge, to 2.8 volts, I got 94.5 Ahrs out of it. That would lead me to believe that they came to me at about a 50% charge leveI a My graph didn't save so I don't have other details. I will try another cycle but since I am limited to 6 Amps charging current it is going to take a long time.
Rick


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## ricklearned (Mar 3, 2012)

I got my contactor today, put the tires on it and tried one more time to adjust the brakes. I had no luck with the brakes but got it running and did a three point turn in the drive way and garage. 

Now I need to get the turn signals and brake lights working so I can take it to a local mechanic and get an alignment and the brakes bled and adjusted. The hand brake is the only brake I have that works at this moment. Fortunately the mechanic is 1/4 mile away but I have to cross Pacific Coast Highway. I will plan the time and my course carefully. 

It was not enough to warrant an EV grin but I did just have a beer to celebrate. It was a long, but very rewarding day.


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## Ziggythewiz (May 16, 2010)

What kind of brakes do you have? Drums are pretty easy to adjust with the wheels up. Alignment's not too tough, but is lots of trial and error.


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## ricklearned (Mar 3, 2012)

Ziggythewiz said:


> What kind of brakes do you have? Drums are pretty easy to adjust with the wheels up. Alignment's not too tough, but is lots of trial and error.


I rebuilt the front end with new discs. I also replaced the master cylinder and put new drums, pads and cylinders in the rear. I adjusted the rears so I have a little friction. I replaced every hose and all the pipes except the main one that goes from from to back. I tried to bleed the brakes and got a soft pedal. I didn't bench bleed the master cylinder like some have done. After going through a quart of brake fluid I bought some speed bleeders and went through almost another quart of fluid and still a soft pedal. I am ready to pay a mechanic to get the brakes bled and give me a sanity check that my brakes are good.

As far as alignment is concerned, since I replaced all the ball joints and tie rods I also want a mechanic to give me a sanity check on that as well. I want to run it with as little toe in as possible so I have less rolling resistance. I may adjust the alignment my self temporarily because I am thinking about going to a place that does alignment and has a four point scale. I want to get a reference of the weight balance for the next phase of my battery pack


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## onegreenev (May 18, 2012)

Check the master cylinder again. To bleed that sucker you need to get a healthy wad of rags and with someone in the drivers seat with the foot on the pedal under pressure you need to slightly break loose the connections to each line going into the master cylinder. One at a time under pressure. Keep your wrench on the nut and tighten down before pressure is released. You may get some air out. 

To bleed you bleed one at at time from the furthest away in the rear then the next furthest away then next and then closest. You also need to manually adjust your brakes prior to bleeding. How many bleeders do you have on your front calipers? Mine have two each and each one needs bleeding. Is the master cylinder the same as the one that was replaced? Did you move or adjust the master cylinder push rod get changed. 

Could be that a line is kinked or the main line is clogged a bit. If your old lines looked ugly maybe changing all your lines is in order. I needed to change the master cylinder and main line and all soft lines. Rear wheel cylinders will be replaced as well. New drums and new front disc brake setup. 

Have another good look at your setup. Try readjusting your shoes. Sure you have the right sized parts?


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## ricklearned (Mar 3, 2012)

onegreenev said:


> Check the master cylinder again. To bleed that sucker you need to get a healthy wad of rags and with someone in the drivers seat with the foot on the pedal under pressure you need to slightly break loose the connections to each line going into the master cylinder. One at a time under pressure. Keep your wrench on the nut and tighten down before pressure is released. You may get some air out.
> 
> To bleed you bleed one at at time from the furthest away in the rear then the next furthest away then next and then closest. You also need to manually adjust your brakes prior to bleeding. How many bleeders do you have on your front calipers? Mine have two each and each one needs bleeding. Is the master cylinder the same as the one that was replaced? Did you move or adjust the master cylinder push rod get changed.
> 
> ...


Pete,
Thanks for the pointers. I manually adjusted the rears to the point that the shoes are dragging on the drums. I won't have a helper until Saturday and my arms are long but not long enough to hold down the pedal while I tighten the nuts on the master cylinder. I already replaced all the hoses and all the lines except the main one from front to back. I have two bleeders on the calipers and went through a quart with a helper and another quart after I got the speed bleeders. 

I am really looking forward to working on getting the turn signals other miscellaneous 12 volt stuff. I am happy deferring to a nearby mechanic for my brake issues, since I am at a point of diminishing returns with regards to my brakes.


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## onegreenev (May 18, 2012)

Adjust them until they are tight then back them off. Not just until they are touching. Once tight they might center themselves. They might not be centered yet. Yes, you may need to defer to a local brake mechanic. Be sure they are competent mechanics and willing to really figure out whats not right. I learned what I know because I do not trust most mechanics. Some are great. Most have no clue. Most can turn a wrench but can't diagnose.


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## Ziggythewiz (May 16, 2010)

I got my drums to bleed properly once, but never again. The disks never need it.


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## onegreenev (May 18, 2012)

Discs need bleed too. If you have two bleeders you do them both on each caliper. If only one then do each one on each caliper.


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## Zak650 (Sep 20, 2008)

Hi Rick,

I feel your pain on the bleeding woes, I went through the same thing. I was originally keeping all 4 drums but after my own bleeding problems I converted the front to discs and that solved my problems. 
Here's my 2 cents worth on bleeding: The more calipers. wheel cyclinders, etc that have air in the system the harder it is to get out. Doing one wheel at a time and bleeding it works best. You probably have air in the front circuits because it has the most up and down paths for air to get trapped in. I would suggest this:
(Note: The front calipers can be removed and a plate to make up for the disc put in place. This can allow the caliper and it's lines to be orientated for air to escape up to the bleed port and the rest of the caliper piston to fill with fluid only) 
1) fill the resevoir
2) loosen/crack the first front circuit fitting at the master cylinder open till fluid flows then tighten
3) proceed down the line to the left front wheel at each fitting keeping the resevoir filled
4) After you get to the left wheel caliper and bleed it then start on the right front circuit and repeat.

The problem is that with massive amounts of air in the system at all different places the air just compresses and moves back and forth instead of bleeding.
Good luck
Zak


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## caffinefiend (Dec 14, 2009)

Hi Rick, I got my little orange bug on the road last week and have 84 EV miles on it to date. I too have experienced the brake bleed blues. I get a little brake at first push but to get real stopping power I have to double push. I'm at 72v of floodies weighing 630 lbs but can stop confidently. You might try the double push on your trip to the mech. By the way, on my dc system I have hit 55 mph on the freeway (late night run LOL), so I expect that with wings you can fly! Sound like a very sweet system you've put together. I love driving my Bug and expect you will too. From one first time recent builder to another, Congratulations!


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## onegreenev (May 18, 2012)

caffinefiend said:


> Hi Rick, I got my little orange bug on the road last week and have 84 EV miles on it to date. I too have experienced the brake bleed blues. I get a little brake at first push but to get real stopping power I have to double push. I'm at 72v of floodies weighing 630 lbs but can stop confidently. You might try the double push on your trip to the mech. By the way, on my dc system I have hit 55 mph on the freeway (late night run LOL), so I expect that with wings you can fly! Sound like a very sweet system you've put together. I love driving my Bug and expect you will too. From one first time recent builder to another, Congratulations!


Wait until you upgrade to 96 or 120 volts. You will wonder why you did not start with that in the beginning. Good to hear you have a car on the road. Bet it takes a bit of time to get to 55 at 72 volts. Lots of amps pushing to do that feat. 

Pete


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## caffinefiend (Dec 14, 2009)

Oh yeah, it takes a steady 300 amps to maintain, and a nice long down hill on ramp to get there. I don't plan on doing that too often. Thanks for your tip on the Lester battery charger conversion, it was an easy job and saved me major bucks. Your probably right about the upgrade thing too.


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## onegreenev (May 18, 2012)

caffinefiend said:


> Oh yeah, it takes a steady 300 amps to maintain, and a nice long down hill on ramp to get there. I don't plan on doing that too often. Thanks for your tip on the Lester battery charger conversion, it was an easy job and saved me major bucks. Your probably right about the upgrade thing too.


Guaranteed right about the upgrade issue. Been there, done that. My first conversion started as a 72 volt system. Bumped to 96 and boy what a difference that jump made. My MG was 120 volts. My current Bug project is sitting at 72 volts and sucks. Soon to be bumped to 185 volts. Once all the cells are bottom balanced then we will do the bump. Our charging project is going very well. Testing our new setup this evening. 

Pete


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## ricklearned (Mar 3, 2012)

I have been spending the last few days trying to diagnose a problem that I am having with either my motor or my controller. 

I cannot seem to get the motor to go past 100 RPMs unloaded in nuetral. In an earlier post I mentioned that I was able to do a three point turn in the driveway. Initially I just thought something needed adjusting but now that everything is checked and tightened I still cannot get the motor RPMs above 100 and the motor temp goes to 65 to 70C in less than a minute. The controller stays at 35 to 40C and the outside temp is 72F (22C.) I was drawing about 100 Amps when the motor was going 100 RPM.


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## Zak650 (Sep 20, 2008)

Hi Rick you might try the AC50 owners thead and post the problem there, maybe someone is familiar with it.

http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showthread.php/hpg-ac30-31-50-owners-thread-34853.html

Zak


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## ricklearned (Mar 3, 2012)

Zak650 said:


> Hi Rick you might try the AC50 owners thead and post the problem there, maybe someone is familiar with it.
> 
> http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showthread.php/hpg-ac30-31-50-owners-thread-34853.html
> 
> Zak


Thanks, I will read that thread. I also posted in the Chit Chat area re Hpevs ac50


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## HPEVS (Jun 6, 2012)

Rick,

Does the display show the 100 RPM or does it show zero? If it shows zero with the motor running, that meas there is an encoder issue. If it does show RPM, then try switching 2 of the motor leads. The will reverse the rotation of the motor in respect to the encoder signal.

Feel free to give us a call if you need help.

Brian


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## ricklearned (Mar 3, 2012)

HPEVS said:


> Rick,
> 
> Does the display show the 100 RPM or does it show zero? If it shows zero with the motor running, that meas there is an encoder issue. If it does show RPM, then try switching 2 of the motor leads. The will reverse the rotation of the motor in respect to the encoder signal.
> 
> ...


Thanks, that did it. 
I appreciate the quick response and the offer of help. I had also received the same suggestion from Travis Gintz offline and want to acknowledge my gratefullness to both of you for your help.


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## ricklearned (Mar 3, 2012)

Now that I sorted out the motor problem it was time to work on the brakes again. I did get the car to a local guy that specializes in VW's and whom I trust. He bled the system, found two leaky stop light switches. and fixed a leak in one of the disc brake calipers. I picked it up this afternoon and drove it the 5 miles back to my home. 

I took the cautious route home, making a lot of right turns and going a little farther that the direct route. After a block I stopped near a park to logon to my EMW display on my Android. As I was parked on the side of the road a group of guys walked by and asked if it was an electric VW. They loved it, and I enjoyed the recognition. Less than a mile away I was stopped at a signal and some guy shouted over from his Chevy SUV, "I have a '74 Super Beetle but that electric is cool." If I didn't already have the EV grin I sure had it by then. 

I was getting 15-20 Amps of regen as I slowed with traffic. Most of the drive back was in third gear and I got great acceleration. Earlier in the week I was concerned with the transmission noise but now it seemed ok. Maybe I was getting used to it or maybe the oil was getting dispersed on the gears and quieting it down. 

Something about my EMW display was not right because my watts per mile kept decreasing and the remaing amphours display increased until it read 90, which is my full pack capacity. When I got home I checked it and reversed the setting. That meant I would have to take it for another drive to test my adjustments. LOL I quickly checked that my brake lights and turn signals were working and drove from one end of Hermosa Beach to the other end. Since my little beach town is only a square mile in area that did not cover a lot of territory but it was another great drive. The EMW display started incrementing down and I used 10 Ahrs of capacity on my drive. My speedo/odometer aren't working yet so I don't have good data on how far I actually traveled. The EMW watts per mile also kept increasing but it only got up to 50, probably because it is cumulative and had about 5 miles worth of negative data. 

I still have a lot of things to work on but the car is functional and I can now take it on small errands around town.


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## onegreenev (May 18, 2012)

Excellent news on your car. Now brake sensors leaking is not something I would have thought of unless I saw and obvious leak. Never seen a bad leaking sensor. That is a new one on me. Thanks for that information. I will put it away in my noggin for future reference. A new brake caliper that was leaking? Ouch. I had a nice drive in my VW yesterday after I upgraded to 156 volts. Wow what a difference it makes. Well, I already knew it would. But 72 volts REALLY SUCKS. I will be bumping up to a max of 192 volts here in a few days. Got my cells balanced so I will be doing fine. 

You know I do update my blog and folks are welcome to comment on the blog. Video coming. 

Pete


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## ricklearned (Mar 3, 2012)

onegreenev said:


> ..... A new brake caliper that was leaking? Ouch.
> 
> Pete


I should have been more clear. It was the connection between the hose and the caliper as well as one of the bleed valves. The caliper was fine.


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## Ziggythewiz (May 16, 2010)

Congrats! 

I've had a couple leaky switches, but they were pretty obvious. There's two kinds of switches, with and without failure indicators. The ones with have a third contact in the middle. On mine these would overheat, melt a hole in the plug, and all your stop juice bleeds out on the road and you almost hit a cop because he decides to park in a left turn lane.

I'm not sure why mine failed and I don't much care. Whoever the idiot was who decided to make a safety component where the error indicator frequently causes total brake loss should be strapped to the road in front of a lead sled with no brakes.


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## onegreenev (May 18, 2012)

ricklearned said:


> I should have been more clear. It was the connection between the hose and the caliper as well as one of the bled valves. The caliper was fine.


OK, I see. I have seen that before. Connections are important. Should have my Roadster Brakes done here real soon.


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## ricklearned (Mar 3, 2012)

I drove the car to Starbucks this morning and found several guys hanging around the car when I returned to the parking lot. I answered their questions and enjoyed talking to them. I love the attention I am getting with this car. When I got back to my garage, I tried to charge up the batteries but found that one of my 48 volt meanwells had bit the dust. Spent some time rigging up a new cable so I could charge half my pack at a time with the good 48 volt power supply.. 

This is going to be tricky until I get another power supply. The only ammeter I have is the EMW and it doesnt measure charge current or amphours when I am only charging half the pack. I need to get one that can measure the output of the meanwell, because after an hour of charging the pack voltace and the 16 cell voltage of the part that I was charging hadn't changed. Maybe both my Meanwells have bit the dust. Since I am the BMS along with some cellogs so this is going to be a time consuming proces getting my pack up to a SOC that is balanced between each 48 volt (16 cell) section.


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## Ziggythewiz (May 16, 2010)

You won't see much voltage change with lithium until you charge to the top. Balancing with multiple chargers would be a huge pain anyway, let alone just the one. Do you have anything that can measure current or power out of the charger? Kill-a-watt, ah counter, or clamp-on ammeter?


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## ricklearned (Mar 3, 2012)

Ziggythewiz said:


> You won't see much voltage change with lithium until you charge to the top. Balancing with multiple chargers would be a huge pain anyway, let alone just the one. Do you have anything that can measure current or power out of the charger? Kill-a-watt, ah counter, or clamp-on ammeter?


Thanks for the tip. I will dig up my clamp on attachment for my DVM.

I had the Meanwells in series so they were charging the entire pack. I adjusted them to put out about 115 volts (57.5 volts each) They are isolated so I could do that. I found out though that the remote switched terminals were not isolated so I guess I will use a relay on the 110 AC side to turn them off when my programmable volt meter hits 115 volts. That is about 3.6 volts per cell in my 32 cell pack.


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## Ziggythewiz (May 16, 2010)

If you were getting 57.5V ea, for 115 total, that's in series, not parallel. What are the specs on these things?


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## ricklearned (Mar 3, 2012)

You are correct, I don't know what I was thinking I have also changed my original post so I don't mislead anyone.

They are Meanwell SP 500-48. They put out 480 watts (10Amps). I wasn't successful using the single one because it keeps tripping my GFCI. I also tried my clamp on ammeter and it doesn't work so I am off to Home Depot for a clamp on Ammeter.


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## ricklearned (Mar 3, 2012)

I rcouldn't find a DC clamp on Amp meter at Home Depot, but I found a Kill a Watt that will tell me how much amperage the Meanwell charger is drawing. 

I got the GFCI issue resolved by disconnecting the green wire from the cord to the frame ground at the charger. I am supposing that since the Meanwell is isolated and can run on 120 or 240 volts that the neither of AC inputs are connected to ground as is the case with most domestic 120 volt devices. Does anyone know if this is a correct assumption?

It is an important question for me to understand since the J1772 connection spec shows both the 12 volt and 120 volt grounds being connected together. I have my 12 volt system isolated and run a lot of black wires back to the 12 volt negative side which is not connected to the chassis. I'm not ready for a J1772 receptacle yet but I want to plan for one in the future.


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## Ziggythewiz (May 16, 2010)

If you've got a harbor freight around you can usually get a clamp-on for under $10


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## ricklearned (Mar 3, 2012)

Ziggythewiz said:


> If you've got a harbor freight around you can usually get a clamp-on for under $10


I looked it up and it appears to only do AC current. AC/DC volts though. Thanks for the suggestion, next time I'm down there (it's 5 miles away) I might pick one up for a spare.

In the meantime I ordered a Lightobject ammeter with a shunt which should arrive by Tuesday. That will be a nice thing to have. I already have two of the programmable volt meters and I am anxious to see of the current shunt will work with one of those. I plan on putting the ammeter on the charger leg. Then I can watch to see when the current starts to taper off.
__________________


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## Jimdear2 (Oct 12, 2008)

ricklearned said:


> In the meantime I ordered a Lightobject ammeter with a shunt which should arrive by Tuesday. That will be a nice thing to have. I already have two of the programmable volt meters and I am anxious to see of the current shunt will work with one of those. I plan on putting the ammeter on the charger leg. Then I can watch to see when the current starts to taper off.


Rick,

*CAUTION/CAUTION/CAUTION*

In case you weren't aware of this you *CANNOT* power two of these China made electronic gauges from the same 12 volt power source. If you do you WILL destroy one of the gauges (ask me how I know).

If you go to the Lightobject website you will find information about this. He is one of the few re-sellers that will tell you this.

The best solution is to get a dc to dc converter/isolator that many of the outfits sell. The first gauge can be powered directly from the vehicles switched 12 volt system. Each additional gauge will require a isolater between it and the base system and all other of these china built electronic gauges.

Hope this helps,
Jim


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## Ziggythewiz (May 16, 2010)

Jim,

I'm interested to hear about your dead gauge. I've found $10 ones that don't like to share a 12V source, but my JLD doesn't seem to care.


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## ricklearned (Mar 3, 2012)

Ziggythewiz said:


> Jim,
> 
> I'm interested to hear about your dead gauge. I've found $10 ones that don't like to share a 12V source, but my JLD doesn't seem to care.


Me too. I haven't hooked up the second one yet, and I have a Amp meter coming. I saw those isolators on the lighobject site and maybe I will add a couple just to be safe. Those will add to my amperage draw. One of the 12 volt programable switches is going to be used on my 12 volt system as a low voltage shutdown.


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## Ziggythewiz (May 16, 2010)

Don't worry about an isolator adding to your amp draw. They'll add on a watt.


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## ricklearned (Mar 3, 2012)

I posted a question on the lightobjects forum about the need for isolation. I will post the answer if I get one. In the meantime I will wait to hook up my other meter until I hear from lightobjects.


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## Zak650 (Sep 20, 2008)

ricklearned said:


> I posted a question on the lightobjects forum about the need for isolation. I will post the answer if I get one. In the meantime I will wait to hook up my other meter until I hear from lightobjects.


Hi Rick,
You might watch the Feb 24th 2012 show on EVTV it goes into some detail on the use of this meter and the need for isolation, it's about halfway through the show.


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## Jimdear2 (Oct 12, 2008)

Zak650 said:


> Hi Rick,
> You might watch the Feb 24th 2012 show on EVTV it goes into some detail on the use of this meter and the need for isolation, it's about halfway through the show.


To those interested in this subject, just bit more information. The above mentioned show segment starts at about minute 81. Jack does cover a bit of info on the isolator.

Also a bit more from me, if the vehicle that you are installing the meter has a common frame ground for the 12 volt system ALL of these china built meters should have an DC to DC/isolator module. If you are using an isolated 12 volt system (like my tractors) you can usually get away without an isolater on the first meter. See my attached diagram sketch.

A down and dirty temp set-up is to power each meter with its own 9 volt battery.

Jim


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## Ziggythewiz (May 16, 2010)

Jim, what kind of meter was it you fried? 

I fried my first isolator by not paying enough attention wiring it up, and stuck an input on the output. I also fried a 200V DVM by connecting the unlabeled connections incorrectly...that one claimed reverse circuit protection, nope.


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## Mark C (Jun 25, 2010)

I am not trying to be antagonistic here, but I have to ask..... If all this aggravation is from using cheap Chinese gauges, is there not an alternative higher quality gauge to be bought, maybe even from the US of A?


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## Ziggythewiz (May 16, 2010)

Good luck. The US military can't get electronics from outside China.


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## ricklearned (Mar 3, 2012)

Jimdear2 said:


> Rick,
> 
> *CAUTION/CAUTION/CAUTION*
> 
> In case you weren't aware of this you *CANNOT* power two of these China made electronic gauges from the same 12 volt power source. If you do you WILL destroy one of the gauges (ask me how I know)......


I got a reply back on my light objects post and Tech Marco says that model of programmable volt meter has an isolator built in.



Zak650 said:


> Hi Rick,
> You might watch the Feb 24th 2012 show on EVTV it goes into some detail on the use of this meter and the need for isolation, it's about halfway through the show.


I looked at that segment and Jack is talking about separating the high voltage from the chassis ground in case there is a leak inside the meter or if a pack voltage wire gets loose and touches the chassis ground wire. Every time I open the connection box to work on it, I worry about a loose pack voltage wire coming into contact with its partner. An isolator won't protect that kind f high voltage short circuit. 

I try to keep pack voltage wires in separate boxes on my build. I have high voltage labels that I intend to put on any connection boxes that have pack voltage. The only place they are mixed like that is in this meter, the EMW sensor and the charger. 

I do not have my 12 volt system grounded to the chassis so I am not as concerned about Jack's issue but am concerned about safety when working around high voltage.


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## Jimdear2 (Oct 12, 2008)

ricklearned said:


> I got a reply back on my light objects post and Tech Marco says that model of programmable volt meter has an isolator built in.


Rick,

Wonderful, but make sure that the additional meters you are planning on installing are also isolated, either by an internal or add on isolator. 

My comments are aimed at the generic digital meters that every one on eBay seem to sell. I damaged a number of these meters before i got it right. In fact Marco at coldfusion/lightobject was the person who set me straight. Right now it's your choice. Take a chance or isolate.



ricklearned said:


> I looked at that segment and Jack is talking about separating the high voltage from the chassis ground in case there is a leak inside the meter or if a pack voltage wire gets loose and touches the chassis ground wire. Every time I open the connection box to work on it, I worry about a loose pack voltage wire coming into contact with its partner. An isolator won't protect that kind f high voltage short circuit.
> 
> I try to keep pack voltage wires in separate boxes on my build. I have high voltage labels that I intend to put on any connection boxes that have pack voltage. The only place they are mixed like that is in this meter, the EMW sensor and the charger.
> 
> I do not have my 12 volt system grounded to the chassis so I am not as concerned about Jack's issue but am concerned about safety when working around high voltage.


Even with your isolated 12 volt set up, if you have two meters, at least one of them needs to be isolated

Remember, I'm not trying to sell you something, I'm trying to prevent you from doing the same damage I did. Since I got my first meter set working (see my wiring diagram) every meter I install has an isolator. Amazing, no more damaged meters on the four electric pulling tractors we've built.

Do as you think best, I tried.

Jim


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## Ziggythewiz (May 16, 2010)

I recently made a display panel that includes 8 DVMs. One thing I like to do is have every wire coming from the batteries go to a 6 pin PC plug, then straight to a fuseblock on the back of the display panel. I can unhook everything easily from the plug, and while it's connected if I accidently were to touch the wrong things the ~1/2 amp fuse would blow, no biggie.


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## Ziggythewiz (May 16, 2010)

ricklearned said:


> I looked it up and it appears to only do AC current. AC/DC volts though. Thanks for the suggestion, next time I'm down there (it's 5 miles away) I might pick one up for a spare.


Even if it says AC, mine does DC just fine.


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## Coulomb (Apr 22, 2009)

Ziggythewiz said:


> Even if it says AC, mine does DC just fine.


Many cheaper clamp meters use current transformers, which will not handle DC. Those that use hall effect devices often have severe drift, at least in the cheaper models.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

My Centech clamp on from Harbor Freight does not do DC.


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## ricklearned (Mar 3, 2012)

Jimdear2 said:


> Rick,
> 
> Wonderful, but make sure that the additional meters you are planning on installing are also isolated, either by an internal or add on isolator.
> 
> ...


I appreciate your advice and the benefit of your experience. You suggested that I get information from lightobjects and I did. Marco told me that both meters were isolated and I did not need to buy a separate isolator. My ground is isolated, my meters are isolated so I am not sure what more I need to do to avoid breaking my meters. Everything in life is a chance but from my risk averse perspective I think I understand the risks and I have taken measures to mitigate the risks.

I do want to learn from you so if you could share some details perhaps we can all benefit. What meter(s) you were using and what specifically happened with your meters? I am not alone in seeking the answer to that question. I also don't know where to look to see your wiring diagram that you refered to.

I don't want to add complexity to my system if I don't need to. Without a little more details from you I don't really know which problem I am trying to avoid. Did the high voltage and low voltage grounds get connected or was there leakage that caused one or both of your meters to break. This forum is a great opportunity to share knowledge, and information is the conduit for sharing that knowledge.

In the past, I have bought less expensive meters from Sure Electronics and their information definitely recommends a separate isolator because their meters do not have internal isolation.


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## Ziggythewiz (May 16, 2010)

I think the one he's referring to this, or similar.

I have these in 12V, 100V, and 200V flavors. They do need isolation. There is also the 2 wire variety, which I thought weren't as good (4 wire > 2, right?) but now I think simpler is better. The 2 wires are also not isolated, and let transient voltage bleed through, but it doesn't seem to affect their operation.


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## Ziggythewiz (May 16, 2010)

JRP3 said:


> My Centech clamp on from Harbor Freight does not do DC.


Which model do you have? I think mine is 96308


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## ricklearned (Mar 3, 2012)

Ziggythewiz said:


> I think the one he's referring to this, or similar.
> 
> I have these in 12V, 100V, and 200V flavors. They do need isolation. There is also the 2 wire variety, which I thought weren't as good (4 wire > 2, right?) but now I think simpler is better. The 2 wires are also not isolated, and let transient voltage bleed through, but it doesn't seem to affect their operation.


OK, those look like the less expensive ones I saw on Sure Electronics site. 

When you say the two wire ones, do you mean voltage meters? I can appreciate the simplicity when I am measuring the same source that I am using to power the meter. What do you mean by "transient voltage bleed through"? Does that mean that your high voltage and low voltage share a common ground? I think that might be the issue that Jack Rickard was concerned about. 

I would still like to understand what happened with Jim Dear's meters, so I can put it into my knowledge base.


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## Ziggythewiz (May 16, 2010)

Yes, by 2 wire I mean DVMs powered by the circuit they measure. 

By voltage bleed through, I mean if you have several 12V DVMs hooked to each other in a string (high of one is low of the next), but only have one connected to a battery, the first will show the full voltage of that battery, the next will display over half of that voltage, and the next over half of that. Whatever this transient signal is it is overpowered by the actual voltage when all of them are hooked up properly.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Ziggythewiz said:


> Which model do you have? I think mine is 96308


Don't remember off hand, and I'm not where I can check it.


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## ricklearned (Mar 3, 2012)

Ziggythewiz said:


> By voltage bleed through, I mean if you have several 12V DVMs hooked to each other in a string (high of one is low of the next), but only have one connected to a battery, the first will show the full voltage of that battery, the next will display over half of that voltage, and the next over half of that. Whatever this transient signal is it is overpowered by the actual voltage when all of them are hooked up properly.


OK, I understand. They are all relative to the same source or battery. Those electrons a persistent little guys, aren't they?


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## ricklearned (Mar 3, 2012)

Jimdear2 said:


> Rick,
> ...................
> Do as you think best, I tried.
> 
> Jim


I ordered the JLD404, a 500 amp shunt and an isolator just in case.


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## ricklearned (Mar 3, 2012)

It is interesting how one's perspective changes during a build. For the past few months I have been spending most of my time outside the car. I had the seat removed so when I was inside I was usually bending over or on my hands and knees. For the most part I was focused on getting the turn signals working and setting up relays and meters for my charger. All that equipment is in the front trunk and I have my temporary 12 v battery and related fuses up there. 

Since I have installed the drivers seat and taken a couple of drives, I am changing my focus, and beginning to think about the inside. I love the information that the Curtiss 840 puts out but I don't like to squint or push the menu button to see it. I am starting to look at gauges and there are some cool retro looking ones out there. 

*Speedo* I could never get the VW speedo cable to seat in the grease cap, and the cable runs right through where I want to put some of my 12 volt stuff. I am looking at the Speedhut GPS speedo. It has a bunch of cool outputs and the best thing about all the Speedhut gauges is they are less that 2" deep. I would have to put a tiny GPS antenna on the roof or the dash. 

*Tach* I really enjoy seeing the tach info, but I prefer it in analog format so I am looking at the Speedhut tach to match the above speedo or a VDO which is about $50 less expensive . I have the diagram for the output from the Curtiss controller so I should be able to make it work. I have already purchased some extra pins and HPEVs published a schematic so all I need to know is what kind of optoisolator to purchase. HPEVs said they are working on a kit but I haven't heard anything about that recently. 

*Other Data* I have a pretty good heatsink but I know the best wasy to keep delicate electronics working is to keep from overheating them. I would probably get a temp gauge with a remote that I would attach to the heat sink below the controller. The Speedhut ones are programmable with a warning light that can come on at a temp that the user sets.

*Tablet Displays* I have the EMW sensor and it sends Bluetooth data to my phone. I have an old 7" tablet that has flaky Wifi but the Bluetooth is working. The Android app gives me a bunch of custom dials and digital displays of voltage, amperage and watthour information. 

That is it for now. I think I will go down to the garage, sit behind the wheel and dream a little more.


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## onegreenev (May 18, 2012)

> Speedo I could never get the VW speedo cable to seat in the grease cap, and the cable runs right through where I want to put some of my 12 volt stuff. I am looking at the Speedhut GPS speedo. It has a bunch of cool outputs and the best thing about all the Speedhut gauges is they are less that 2" deep. I would have to put a tiny GPS antenna on the roof or the dash.


A little known secret about the VW speedo cable is that you need a cir-clip that is usually missing to hold it in place. The clip is tiny but essential to holding the speedo cable in place.


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## ricklearned (Mar 3, 2012)

Thanks, I saw the slot on the cable end for the circlip and figured there might be something. Also, I think my new grease cap has a smaller hole and it woouln't let the cable through. I could dig around in my old parts boxes and try to find the old grease cap and probably get it working. I did check Ebay and I think I can get close to $100 for the speedo and cable so I am going to go that route. As noted above I am getting pretty excited about the speedhut instruments.

I removed the old dash yesterday and cleaned up the old wiring. To remove the dash I had to remove the steering wheel and the turn signal, key and wiper switch combo. The wheel came off easily once I had the right size socket. the switch combo was another story but after about an hour I got it loose. I will clean some of the contacts and reassemble it and put on the new wheel that I bought. It is smaller than the stock wheel and gives a little more room for this big guy's knees.


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## ricklearned (Mar 3, 2012)

On Friday I ordered a new dash from Glass Action and a Speedhut tach and speedo. I have spent the last week tidying up some of the wiring. 

My replacement Meanwell power supply also arrived and when I install that I am adding a relay to cut off the charge voltage at 112v (3.5 per cell). When monitoring my cells during charging I had discovered that one of my cells was at 3.7 while the others were still at 3.6 I will see if charging to 112v will be the sweet spot where that rogue cell stays below 3.65. I also want to take my pack to lower levels of discharge to see how this one cell behaves.


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## Zak650 (Sep 20, 2008)

ricklearned said:


> On Friday I ordered a new dash from Glass Action and a Speedhut tach and speedo. I have spent the last week tidying up some of the wiring.
> 
> My replacement Meanwell power supply also arrived and when I install that I am adding a relay to cut off the charge voltage at 112v. When monitoring my cells during charging I had discovered that one of my cells was at 3.7 while the others were still at 3.6 I will see if charging to 112v will be the sweet spot where that rogue cell stays below 3.65. I also want to take my pack to lower levels of discharge to see how this one cell behaves.


Rick did you bottom balance your pack? Are you running a bms?


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## ricklearned (Mar 3, 2012)

No I didn't bottom balance. I have 4 cellogs monitoring 32 cells. I am the BMS


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## alvin (Jul 26, 2008)

That is what I want to do with the relay.

I have spent the last few days making a circuit to turn off the relay (and keep it off) at a certain voltage. It is working on the breadboard. I'll try it on the lead pack first.

One cell at 3.7 and the rest at 3.6 will be alright won't it ? Since you are watching it anyway.

Alvin


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

ricklearned said:


> No I didn't bottom balance. I have 4 cellogs monitoring 32 cells. I am the BMS


If you haven't done the Cell log mod remember that it will unbalance the cells by only drawing power from the first 6 or 7 cells for each cell log.


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## onegreenev (May 18, 2012)

Should be but you don't know if they will all be a the same level when you near your empty level. That is the reason to bottom balance. That way you KNOW that they will be nearly all the same when you near the end of discharge. Because while your driving you won't know until its too late. The purpose is so you don't have to monitor your cells while driving. You still need to know close to what you have left but if you do happen to get real low you wont have to worry. If you drive a cell into the hole it happens real fast. I know first hand about NOT having a BOTTOM BALANCED PACK and driving till you think your still good to go. The minute voltage differences are pretty vague on an analog meter and when your driving hundreds of amps things just happen fast. 

BOTTOM BALANCE THOSE CELLS. THEN CONNECT UP YOUR CELL LOGS IF YOU LIKE. DON'T LET CELLS GO ABOVE LIKE 3.7 VOLTS DURING CHARGE AND YOU WILL BE FINE.

On the upper end of your charge you will have some that reach full first. Those are your low capacity cells and as long as they stay under 3.7 or so they should be fine. 

Pete


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

3.6V is the max recommended voltage from CALB.


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## ricklearned (Mar 3, 2012)

JRP3 said:


> If you haven't done the Cell log mod remember that it will unbalance the cells by only drawing power from the first 6 or 7 cells for each cell log.


My cellogs are on a board that rwaudio sold me. It has a relay and only powers the cellogs when I turn it on. I intend to add circuits to turn it on when I am driving and charging.
I still may consider doing that mod.


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## ricklearned (Mar 3, 2012)

onegreenev said:


> Should be but you don't know if they will all be a the same level when you near your empty level. That is the reason to bottom balance. That way you KNOW that they will be nearly all the same when you near the end of discharge. Because while your driving you won't know until its too late. The purpose is so you don't have to monitor your cells while driving. You still need to know close to what you have left but if you do happen to get real low you wont have to worry. If you drive a cell into the hole it happens real fast. I know first hand about NOT having a BOTTOM BALANCED PACK and driving till you think your still good to go. The minute voltage differences are pretty vague on an analog meter and when your driving hundreds of amps things just happen fast.
> 
> BOTTOM BALANCE THOSE CELLS. THEN CONNECT UP YOUR CELL LOGS IF YOU LIKE. DON'T LET CELLS GO ABOVE LIKE 3.7 VOLTS DURING CHARGE AND YOU WILL BE FINE.
> 
> ...


That is good advice Pete. I experienced the same thing with some Headways on my bicycle. The irony is I had that pack monitored by cellogs but I didn't know as much then and I keep ignoring the cellog beeping.

Currently I don't plan on driving far enough to even get to 50% so I want to spend my time working on instrumentation and charging controls. I have a PL8, but bottom balancing is still a time consuming process. 

I may do that in the future, or before I want to do a drive that gets close to my range. Also in the future I want to go up to 36 cells which will make my cellog board obsolete. At that point, I will make the decision to get a BMS or bottom balance.


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## ricklearned (Mar 3, 2012)

JRP3 said:


> 3.6V is the max recommended voltage from CALB.


I am cutting off my voltage at 112 volts on my 32 cell pack which is 3.5 per cell. I didn't make that clear in my original post and I edited that post to add that detail.

I have Winstons which I think can go higher but I am conservative and won't push the limits to get a few more Amphours.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

I missed that you have Winstons, yes they can go higher than CALBs.


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## Zak650 (Sep 20, 2008)

Hi Rick,

Think of your battery pack as a series of inverted wine bottles of slightly different volumes. The openings at the bottom are all at the same level(altitude). As you charge the pack each bottle is filled with the same number of drops(electrons) as they approach the fully charged voltage all these different bottles show different psi(voltage) because the tops of the liquid are all different heights due to the volume differences. The charger stops when the sum of the bottles psi(voltage) reaches it's set point. The key is having all the bottles run out at the same instant. As they empty if some bottles still have higher psi as they reach the empty point they overpower their neighbors and drive them to destruction because they have higher psi(voltage) and are able to do so. If they are all at the same psi when they each empty they have no force to cause the other cells to harm each other. 

You can see that in such a system, measuring the voltage near fully charged and making them equal psi or voltage at the top actually ensures that as they reach empty they will all be uneven and cause the death of the cells with less capacity or volume. The closer to empty you can measure and adjust them to equal the better off you will be.


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## ricklearned (Mar 3, 2012)

Zak650 said:


> Hi Rick,
> 
> Think of your battery pack as a series of inverted wine bottles of slightly different volumes. The openings at the bottom are all at the same level(altitude). As you charge the pack each bottle is filled with the same number of drops(electrons) as they approach the fully charged voltage all these different bottles show different psi(voltage) because the tops of the liquid are all different heights due to the volume differences. The charger stops when the sum of the bottles psi(voltage) reaches it's set point. The key is having all the bottles run out at the same instant. As they empty if some bottles still have higher psi as they reach the empty point they overpower their neighbors and drive them to destruction because they have higher psi(voltage) and are able to do so. If they are all at the same psi when they each empty they have no force to cause the other cells to harm each other.
> 
> You can see that in such a system, measuring the voltage near fully charged and making them equal psi or voltage at the top actually ensures that as they reach empty they will all be uneven and cause the death of the cells with less capacity or volume. The closer to empty you can measure and adjust them to equal the better off you will be.


That is a good analogy. I guess it depends on whether one wants to see the inequality at the top or at the bottom. In my case, until I modify the cellogs to balance their loads, I am going to have a little of both. Maybe I can call that middle balanced, since I intend to not discharge anywhere near the bottom and I am charging to an average cell voltage of 3.5. I have been logging my cycles and I have one cell that is looking like a rogue. That charging cuttoff point keeps the one rogue cell from going above 3.6 volts. Fortunately I have some extras so some day I will swap it out and test it through several cycles with my PL8. 

In the meantime I am spending less time driving my bug and more time cleaning up some of the wiring details and doing a little body work. I am looking forward to a day when I will need to increase my capacity and consider the ultimate question, "To BMS, or not to BMS?


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## Zak650 (Sep 20, 2008)

ricklearned said:


> That is a good analogy. I guess it depends on whether one wants to see the inequality at the top or at the bottom. In my case, until I modify the cellogs to balance their loads, I am going to have a little of both. Maybe I can call that middle balanced, since I intend to not discharge anywhere near the bottom and I am charging to an average cell voltage of 3.5. I have been logging my cycles and I have one cell that is looking like a rogue. That charging cuttoff point keeps the one rogue cell from going above 3.6 volts. Fortunately I have some extras so some day I will swap it out and test it through several cycles with my PL8.
> 
> In the meantime I am spending less time driving my bug and more time cleaning up some of the wiring details and doing a little body work. I am looking forward to a day when I will need to increase my capacity and consider the ultimate question, "To BMS, or not to BMS?


If you follow the analogy through and balance your pack in the middle, the cell with the least capacity(volume) will have the lowest voltage at the bottom and the highest voltage at the top but in either case it would be the cell to keep your eye on.


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## EVfun (Mar 14, 2010)

ricklearned said:


> I am cutting off my voltage at 112 volts on my 32 cell pack which is 3.5 per cell. I didn't make that clear in my original post and I edited that post to add that detail.
> 
> I have Winstons which I think can go higher but I am conservative and won't push the limits to get a few more Amphours.


That is what I run with my top balanced Thunder Sky pack. The charger limits voltage to 3.5 vpc per cell (used to be 112 volts, now 133 volts with a larger pack) and holds that for about 20 minutes before shutting off. I have previously used a set point voltage as high as 3.6 vpc with a hold time as long as 1 hour. There was little extra capacity available (perhaps 5%) so I backed off. 

If you have not balanced your pack yet you need to check and see what is happening after a drive and while the charger is running very near the end of a charge cycle. You can choose top or bottom depending on your driving needs and your charger capabilities. I like knowing the cells will be within a few hundredths of a volt at the end of charge, and being able to check the system quickly near the end of charge with a volt meter. If include a BMS you will have to lean toward the manufacturers recommendation, usually top balanced if they have shunts.


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## onegreenev (May 18, 2012)

ricklearned said:


> That is a good analogy. I guess it depends on whether one wants to see the inequality at the top or at the bottom. In my case, until I modify the cellogs to balance their loads, I am going to have a little of both. Maybe I can call that middle balanced, since I intend to not discharge anywhere near the bottom and I am charging to an average cell voltage of 3.5. I have been logging my cycles and I have one cell that is looking like a rogue. That charging cuttoff point keeps the one rogue cell from going above 3.6 volts. Fortunately I have some extras so some day I will swap it out and test it through several cycles with my PL8.
> 
> In the meantime I am spending less time driving my bug and more time cleaning up some of the wiring details and doing a little body work. I am looking forward to a day when I will need to increase my capacity and consider the ultimate question, "To BMS, or not to BMS?


If you only have one going to 3.6 volts your doing great. That cell will drop in voltage real fast anyway. Little excess current is going into that cell and I charge my cells to 3.65 and they all settle to 3.333 volts. Even those that reach 3.75 volts. 

Your intentions of not running the car low are good intentions but in reality it will happen that you accidentally go further than expected and that is when you will loose your out of balance cells and because you have middle balance you may even loose more than one. You could loose a whole batch and once it happens its too late. This is why we PUSH HARD for bottom balancing. Loosing a cell is expensive. You don't need to loose any cells. Forgetfulness happens to the young and old alike. 



Pete


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## Ziggythewiz (May 16, 2010)

And bottom balancing ensures that they will be uneven at the top of the charge. Either way you have to stay away from at least one end.

There's no such thing as a middle balanced pack. That's just an unbalanced pack...not that that's a terrible thing, if you stay away from the ends.


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## onegreenev (May 18, 2012)

By the way. Don't connect your cell logs to a few cells. It will cause an imbalance in your cells and you don't want that. If you let the imbalance go too long you will ruin cells on the upper end charge too. Yes you can ruin cells by overcharging too.


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## onegreenev (May 18, 2012)

Ziggythewiz said:


> And bottom balancing ensures that they will be uneven at the top of the charge. Either way you have to stay away from at least one end.
> 
> There's no such thing as a middle balanced pack. That's just an unbalanced pack...not that that's a terrible thing, if you stay away from the ends.


Yes, the top will be uneven but if your pack is well matched the difference will be very little and your higher voltage cells will still be well within safe limits. Remember that at the end of the charge the amperage is low compared to the amperage during a drive at the end of a drive. Upon discharge it is the high currents that drive an empty cell to the end real fast and WILL KILL A CELL. Not going to happen at the top even with a slight imbalance there. If the imbalance is that a cell is well over 4 volts then you must cull that cell. If your highest is no higher than 3.8 volts you really are good to go. I have crappy cells and still don't have any go higher than 3.8 volts. I have since reduced my main charge limit to 3.5 volts. Now I have none over 3.7 volts. 


Best to be balanced at the bottom than the top. Those tiny higher voltages at the top burn off super fast anyway so there is no real danger unless you have a grossly over imbalanced cell at the top. I have cells that can't go into my pack as they are very low capacity. Even my abused cells are still reasonable. 

Pete 

We are telling you so you don't loose cells. If you decide to go top balance and cells logs on a few cells then WHEN you loose Cells don't cry about it. I did not cry when I lost mine. I learned a valuable lesson. IT HAPPENS FAST.

See how fat those little piggies are. This is what happens when they are driven into the ground at the end if they run out faster than the other cells. 

Dont run with out a GOOD BMS at the TOP. If you go without a BMS then BOTTOM BALANCE. It is mandatory to prevent this. These cells are ruined. Thats what? $880 bucks worth of cells right here. Most still hold some voltage some have nothing. Usable in a vehicle? NO


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## ricklearned (Mar 3, 2012)

Zak650 said:


> If you follow the analogy through and balance your pack in the middle, the cell with the least capacity(volume) will have the lowest voltage at the bottom and the highest voltage at the top but in either case it would be the cell to keep your eye on.


That is my plan. Although I am not doing anything to balance it in the middle. What I am doing is charging until the first cell hits 3.6 volts and discharging until that cell gets near 3.0 volts. I don't yet know what effect that cell will have on my pack capacity. That is why I am looking forward to driving a little more to collect some data.


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## EVfun (Mar 14, 2010)

Ziggythewiz said:


> And bottom balancing ensures that they will be uneven at the top of the charge. Either way you have to stay away from at least one end.
> 
> There's no such thing as a middle balanced pack. That's just an unbalanced pack...not that that's a terrible thing, if you stay away from the ends.


What do you trust more, the charger or the driver?

You could have middle balanced cells. I don't know why one would as it would be a PITA to set up. You would have to measure the capacity of each cell and depending on whether this finished on the top or the bottom you would have to either remove half of each cells measured capacity or charge each cell to half its capacity.


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## ricklearned (Mar 3, 2012)

Ziggythewiz said:


> And bottom balancing ensures that they will be uneven at the top of the charge. Either way you have to stay away from at least one end.
> 
> There's no such thing as a middle balanced pack. That's just an unbalanced pack...not that that's a terrible thing, if you stay away from the ends.


That is an even better description of my plan. Yes, I have an unbalanced pack.


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## onegreenev (May 18, 2012)

ricklearned said:


> That is my plan. Although I am not doing anything to balance it in the middle. What I am doing is charging until the first cell hits 3.6 volts and discharging until that cell gets near 3.0 volts. I don't yet know what effect that cell will have on my pack capacity. That is why I am looking forward to driving a little more to collect some data.



Under load it is easy to go below 3 volts and normal to do so. How do you plan on dealing with that? At the end of your discharge your load will sag pretty hard and if one cell is too low it will just go reversal and bloat like a piggy if your cells are unbalanced. Like I said it can happen fast and before you know it. 

Watch out.


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## ricklearned (Mar 3, 2012)

onegreenev said:


> By the way. Don't connect your cell logs to a few cells. It will cause an imbalance in your cells and you don't want that. If you let the imbalance go too long you will ruin cells on the upper end charge too. Yes you can ruin cells by overcharging too.


I have every cell (32) connected to a cell log, and all my cell logs (4) are connected to a group of 8 cells. My understanding of cell logs is unless you modify them they only draw current from a couple of cells. 

I have also ruined cells (Headways) by over charging. I didn't cry, I just chalked it off to experience. I have learned a lot since then. I am not saying I am not going to follow any of the good advice on this thread. What I am saying is I am data driven, and until I get reliable Amp hours data I am driving conservatively and staying away from the ends by a large margin.


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## ricklearned (Mar 3, 2012)

onegreenev said:


> Under load it is easy to go below 3 volts and normal to do so. How do you plan on dealing with that? At the end of your discharge your load will sag pretty hard and if one cell is too low it will just go reversal and bloat like a piggy if your cells are unbalanced. Like I said it can happen fast and before you know it.
> 
> Watch out.


Thanks again for the advice. My Headway that went into reversal didn't bloat it just farted. LOL

I am monitoring my individual cell voltages under load. One of the features of the cell logs is the alarm and ultimately if I stay with the cell log approach I can make my controller go into limp mode when an individual cell hits a preset value. Right now that value is set at 3.0 and you are right, I hear an occasional alarm when I step on it and am pulling 200 amps. As soon as I back off the alarm goes off. I live in a little beach town and I don't plan on going very far until I get some more data.


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## onegreenev (May 18, 2012)

I know what your saying and I told myself that very thing as well until I got some good AH counting gauges. Oooops. Ruined cells. It's the Ooooops that will bite you. Don't go there. Bottom balance and then data log. Having those cell logs powered by a few cells will unbalance those cells pretty fast. Faster than you think. Ooooops! There goes a couple more cells. What voltage is required for powering those cell logs? if you can build a 4 cell aux battery with your extra lithiums and then charge them up full and use that aux for powering your cell logs and don't let the main pack get unbalanced. 

Balance it up. If your only going to do a few runs and that is all then you should be fine but if you drive to collect data then you need it all running as you would on a normal daily basis. Otherwise what good is the data?


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## onegreenev (May 18, 2012)

> didn't bloat it just farted. LOL


Boy I'd hate to hear my fat cell fart. Mine actually don't have a release valve. It looks like a relief valve but it is only a plug with o-ring. My cells hold pressure. Ooooops. No venting on mine. Too much and they will blow.


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## ricklearned (Mar 3, 2012)

EVfun said:


> What do you trust more, the charger or the driver?
> 
> ........


I trust the driver because that is where the buck stops. The driver installed the power supplies, set their high voltage limit, and monitors the cells as they charge.


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## onegreenev (May 18, 2012)

ricklearned said:


> I trust the driver because that is where the buck stops. The driver installed the power supplies, set their high voltage limit, and monitors the cells as they charge.


Charger is not the problem. It's the controller being able to cut back power before any thing happens. Unbalanced the controller can't do that as it only sees the average pack voltage. That is why you bottom balance. 

I trust my Controller more than myself. I just need to set it properly from the beginning. Then its not something I need to be worried about. I don't like stress nor do I like to think about things like that while out for a drive. I want to enjoy my drives. 

Pete


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## onegreenev (May 18, 2012)

My charger cuts off properly. My controller controls the charge too from direct DC fast charging.  Works like a charm.


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## ricklearned (Mar 3, 2012)

onegreenev said:


> I know what your saying and I told myself that very thing as well until I got some good AH counting gauges. Oooops. Ruined cells. It's the Ooooops that will bite you. Don't go there. Bottom balance and then data log. Having those cell logs powered by a few cells will unbalance those cells pretty fast. Faster than you think. Ooooops! There goes a couple more cells. What voltage is required for powering those cell logs? if you can build a 4 cell aux battery with your extra lithiums and then charge them up full and use that aux for powering your cell logs and don't let the main pack get unbalanced.
> 
> Balance it up. If your only going to do a few runs and that is all then you should be fine but if you drive to collect data then you need it all running as you would on a normal daily basis. Otherwise what good is the data?


I thought this discussion was going to become a BMS or no BMS flame. I would never have imagined the emotions around an unbalanced pack. The reality is that in some point in time every one of our packs is in some state of imbalance isn't it? If I understand what I have learned then a top balanced pack is unbalanced at the bottom and a bottom balanced pack is unbalanced at the top. If that is a correct assumption then we are all running unbalanced packs aren't we at some point? Some people put emphasis on the top and others put emphasis on the bottom. 

From my perspective I think it boils down to risk management. Yes, I am only doing a few short runs. That is a start on data gathering. When I get the rest of my system together I will have better monitoring and can push a little to see what kind of trends I am seeing. 

Let me ask a half facetious question. It is possible to ruin a cell or two even in a bottom balanced pack isn't it? I think the guru of bottom balancing, Jack R did it didn't he? So we are back to the buck stops at the driver discussion.


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## ricklearned (Mar 3, 2012)

onegreenev said:


> Charger is not the problem. It's the controller being able to cut back power before any thing happens. Unbalanced the controller can't do that as it only sees the average pack voltage. That is why you bottom balance.
> 
> I trust my Controller more than myself. I just need to set it properly from the beginning. Then its not something I need to be worried about. I don't like stress nor do I like to think about things like that while out for a drive. I want to enjoy my drives.
> 
> Pete


I thought I mentioned it but one of the things I intend to do before I start seriously driving the car is to set up the rwaudio board so when a cell hits a preset minimum it will trigger an alarm and if that happens then it can trigger the controller to go into limp mode. I have rented the Curtis programmer so I can control the LVC cutoff of the pack as well but I want the additional fallback of cell voltage. I will obviously have to play with that and my current cell alarm setting of 3.0 volts may be set too high.

Well there you have it. I love thinking about things like that when I am driving. That is why you and I would pick different flavors at Baskin Robbins. And that would leave 29 flavors for the rest of the world. LOL. As I mentioned earlier I am data driven and I love finding the sweet spot between the massive acceleration of my AC35 and the sweet chime of my cell log alarm.


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## Zak650 (Sep 20, 2008)

Hi Rick,

I have recently recieved my 32 CALB CA100 cells. With the cells was a capacity list showing some at 110ah and some at 114ah. I don't know if this is typical but let's say it is and the cells in the pack vary in capacity by 4%. This graph is of a cell marked as 110ah and done with a Powerlab8 at a discharge rate of 10 amps. This graph would represent a discharge of 85%. Of course while out driving your car at 100 amps things are happening 10 times as fast as shown here. You can see that a 4% change at the very end of the curve shows a pretty radical angle difference of 45 degrees off vertical to 5 degrees off vertical at the tip or end of the curve. This shows keeping all the cells even at the bottom where a 4ah (22 minute) difference in voltage is much more noticable than at the middle where a the same 4ah (22 minute) difference in voltage is practically imperceptable.

CALB CA100 test graph:


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Top or bottom balancing at least provides an actual balance point and allows you to take action based on accurate data. Running without top or bottom balance means you have no baseline to go from. You don't know which cells have the least capacity. My feeling is if your cells are close enough then bottom balancing is better, but if the spread is too large you may have some cells running away at the end of charge so you almost have to top balance. The best solution is a closely matched pack.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

> With the cells was a capacity list showing some at 114ah and some at 110ah.


That's the same spread as my order of 36 CALB SE cells from three years ago. I was rather hoping that they would have gotten the spread closer than that over the last three years. Not that it's a bad spread, but no improvement at all is disappointing.


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## ricklearned (Mar 3, 2012)

JRP3 said:


> Top or bottom balancing at least provides an actual balance point and allows you to take action based on accurate data. Running without top or bottom balance means you have no baseline to go from. You don't know which cells have the least capacity. My feeling is if your cells are close enough then bottom balancing is better, but if the spread is too large you may have some cells running away at the end of charge so you almost have to top balance. The best solution is a closely matched pack.


I agree that a closely matched pack is the best solution. After a few more cycles I may replace the cell that goes up the fastest at the end of my charge cycle. 

One of the things I have going on, that is different than most of the installs out there, is my use of cell logs that adds a small parasite load to my pack. I may have mentioned that the rwaudio board allows me to turn off the cell logs because the pins that go to the cells that provide power are connected to the cell through a relay that I have setup so that the cell logs are only on when the ignition switch is on, or I override that with a separate switch so I can monitor my cells during charging. Nevertheless as Pete has warned. this small load can create an imbalance over time. I may ask rwaudio to chime in about the concerns some of you have expressed. 

I really haven't formed a conclusion yet about top balancing or bottom balancing. What I do like about the cell log system is that I can monitor each cell. What I don't like is the parasitic load. I may do the modification so that is not an issue. At that point I may get closer to a decision about what type of balancing I am going to do. Right now I have the time to watch the cell voltages as they charge and discharge. Once I am seriously driving I won't be able to do that as easily. 

I did a test on my PL8 but I was only able to set it up to draw 10 amps and my curve looks similar to the one that Zak posted. I have set up some old lead acid batteries and I will think that will allow me to run that test at higher amperage to get a better sense about the knee of the discharge curve of my Winstons.

In the meantime I am going to finish setting up my JLD404, take some short drives and see how my amphours compare to my EMW EV display. I like having redundant systems and getting lots of data. It is part of my risk managment approach to battery management, unbalanced as it is.


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## onegreenev (May 18, 2012)

Rick,
Can you do the use the regenerative function and connect to an external battery bank of 24 volts and a healthy AH sized pack even if lead acid cells? I have been able to get a discharge of 40 amps. Still trying to get that elusive 40 amp charge. I have the PL-8 as well. You need to do the change on the PL-8 and not in the computer program. I have been unsuccessful at saving that change.


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## ricklearned (Mar 3, 2012)

Yes that is what I was trying to do. I have four 12 ahr alarm batteries in parallel. I don't care as much about charging at that rate as I do about discharging. I will try your trick of doing it in the PL8. Thanks.

Hey, speaking of discharging, did you see Simon's video of the 1000 amp discharge test of a CALB200 on EVTV? Wow, that is some way to cook a hot dog!


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## gary k (Aug 19, 2008)

I just finished a 1957 bug and it came out great. See www.ZWheelz.com for details. 32kWh lithium pack, 40kW BLDC drive, 12kW charger. Mounting speakers for new stereo system now.


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## ricklearned (Mar 3, 2012)

gary k said:


> I just finished a 1957 bug and it came out great. See www.ZWheelz.com for details. 32kWh lithium pack, 40kW BLDC drive, 12kW charger. Mounting speakers for new stereo system now.


Wow, I only got a chance to look at a few pictures but I love how your put everything together. I am inspired and stimulated to add more capacity. I can't wait until I am far enough along to be thinking about stereos. 

One of my dreams is to get a stereo with an MP3 player, then find some MP3s of the pre drag rumble of a big old V8 with glasspacks. Then when I am at a signal next to someone that has a hot car, I will play the MP3, and see the look on his face when I silently zip away when the signal turns green. It might take a big old sub woofer to sound realistic.


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## rwaudio (May 22, 2008)

ricklearned said:


> I may ask rwaudio to chime in about the concerns some of you have expressed.


I have some long term results with the use of a celllog 8 monitoring 4 cells in my 12v battery that I was using to power my PL6's and there was no detectable drift or imbalance when using ONLY the first 4 cell inputs.

Others have documented that there is a difference between 1-6 and 7, 8 along with the modification that lets 7 & 8 share the load. I have not yet implemented the modification on my Cell Logs, but I would recommend it based on feedback from other members of this forum. (I WILL be doing the modification to my cell logs)

The good thing about the cell logs is that they will make you aware of any issues that are caused by the cell logs themselves if/when the cells did drift far enough for some cells to be over/under voltage depending on how you use the alarms.

Even with modified cell logs and the use of my Cell Log 8 Breakout Module which "turns off" the cell logs. If the car is going to be stored for a long period of time (6 months+) I would recommend pulling the cell logs from the Breakout Module as an extra level of safety. Along with disconnecting any dc/dc converters or other loads that could drain the pack. The cell logs would present a very small (in the microamp range) load on cells 2-8 (cell 1 being electrically disconnected by the turn off method I have implemented).


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## MN Driver (Sep 29, 2009)

ricklearned said:


> Yes that is what I was trying to do. I have four 12 ahr alarm batteries in parallel. I don't care as much about charging at that rate as I do about discharging. I will try your trick of doing it in the PL8. Thanks.
> 
> Hey, speaking of discharging, did you see Simon's video of the 1000 amp discharge test of a CALB200 on EVTV? Wow, that is some way to cook a hot dog!


It was a CALB 180Ah CA series and the amperage was a bit higher at times! Behold the glowing wrench!








If there was anything that changed my mind about going to the CA series, it's that video!


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## ricklearned (Mar 3, 2012)

MN Driver said:


> It was a CALB 180Ah CA series and the amperage was a bit higher at times! ........
> If there was anything that changed my mind about going to the CA series, it's that video!


That is over 10C. I am sure I am not going to get that from my Winstons. I have Headways on my bicycle and they are supposed to give you that kind of burst.


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## ricklearned (Mar 3, 2012)

rwaudio said:


> I have some long term results with the use of a celllog 8 monitoring 4 cells in my 12v battery that I was using to power my PL6's and there was no detectable drift or imbalance when using ONLY the first 4 cell inputs.
> 
> Others have documented that there is a difference between 1-6 and 7, 8 along with the modification that lets 7 & 8 share the load. I have not yet implemented the modification on my Cell Logs, but I would recommend it based on feedback from other members of this forum. (I WILL be doing the modification to my cell logs)
> 
> ...


Thanks for the insight. I love my Breakout Module. I especially like knowing what each cell is doing while I am charging and discharging. (OK, Officer, it is not texting and I only look at it when stopped.) Only one BMS can deliver that kind of real time information and all the proponents of bottom balancing don't get that kind of data either. Thanks for giving me that choice and making your Breakout Module available for guys like me.


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## ricklearned (Mar 3, 2012)

I thought I would post a few pictures of my motor and controller installation. I originally used a breadboard approach and had the controller mounted on plywood so I could move things around easily. Once I got it going I knew I should have a better heat sink. I mounted a 3/16" piece of aluminum on the firewall made some hinges and connected them to a 1/2" piece of aluminum that you see the controller mounted to. As I gather data about how hot the controller gets I can add a fan, then finned heat sink material and if that doesn't work I can go liquid cooling. Unlike Miz, who lives in the desert I live in a little beach town in California where we get a nice cool breeze off the ocean. I don't have the range to venture inland where it gets really hot.

At the top of the photo on the right you can see I have Bondo'd the standard VW vents and eventually I am going to get a fiberglass apron, deck and fenders. I am going for the California look with a retro spin. The deck will have a frenched license plate indentation and I am going to use LEDs to light the plate. I have ordered the Watson Streetworks third brake light and plan on using LEDs for stop, tail and turn indicators. I am looking at some cool '39 Ford teardrop lights.


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## onegreenev (May 18, 2012)

gary k said:


> I just finished a 1957 bug and it came out great. See www.ZWheelz.com for details. 32kWh lithium pack, 40kW BLDC drive, 12kW charger. Mounting speakers for new stereo system now.


Very nice build.


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## onegreenev (May 18, 2012)

ricklearned said:


> I thought I would post a few pictures of my motor and controller installation. I originally used a breadboard approach and had the controller mounted on plywood so I could move things around easily. Once I got it going I knew I should have a better heat sink. I mounted a 3/16" piece of aluminum on the firewall made some hinges and connected them to a 1/2" piece of aluminum that you see the controller mounted to. As I gather data about how hot the controller gets I can add a fan, then finned heat sink material and if that doesn't work I can go liquid cooling. Unlike Miz, who lives in the desert I live in a little beach town in California where we get a nice cool breeze off the ocean. I don't have the range to venture inland where it gets really hot.
> 
> At the top of the photo on the right you can see I have Bondo'd the standard VW vents and eventually I am going to get a fiberglass apron, deck and fenders. I am going for the California look with a retro spin. The deck will have a frenched license plate indentation and I am going to use LEDs to light the plate. I have ordered the Watson Streetworks third brake light and plan on using LEDs for stop, tail and turn indicators. I am looking at some cool '39 Ford teardrop lights.


I'd do liquid cooling for that controller.


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## ricklearned (Mar 3, 2012)

I have ordered the Unique dash from Glass Action. In a few months I am going to order an apron, a deck and rear fenders. Here is a photo of the dash. It comes blank and I think I will have room for all the gauges, a 7" tablet display, a radio and possibly a GPS. I have an old radio, an old tablet and 5 year old Garmin GPS which should get me started. I think I mentioned that I also have a Speedhut tach and Speedometer ordered and they should arrive around the same time as the dash.

I am still undecided about the consol shown in the picture. I do have some digital gauges, that might fit down there. ( JLD 404 and voltmeters for the 12v and 96v systems.)


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## ricklearned (Mar 3, 2012)

onegreenev said:


> I'd do liquid cooling for that controller.


If I were living in Chico, the midwest or the desert I would do liquid cooling too. I already have a form of liguid cooling. It is called the Pacific Ocean and every day a nice sea breeze picks up like clockwork and keeps the temperature nice and pleasant. With my limited range I can't and won't venture too far inland. It got up to to 72F in Hermosa Beach today vs 99F in Redding, while Miz was enjoying a cool 91F in Phoenix. He is doing some experiments because he thinks he doesn't always need to circulate coolant to his Curtis. He may get some benefits from convection without having to turn on his pump. 

As I have said before, it is simply a matter of priorities based on my circumstances. I would rather put some money into instruments while I figure out my cooling needs. My half inch aluminum heat sink has got to be absorbing some of the heat from the Curtis. In the meantime I will be monitoring my controller temperature while squinting at my Curtis 840 display. It will be nice to have some guages that I can see.

Speedhut makes a nice dual gauge temperature/ fuel gauge that may also fit on my dash. Otherwise I can get separate 2" guages. The nice thing about Speedhut is, for a price, I can customize the gauges. I could put Controller on the temp gauge and SOC or something appropriate for the fuel gauge. 

Tomorrow I hope to put my turn signals and stop lights back on and take the car for a spin.


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## Ziggythewiz (May 16, 2010)

How much does that console run?


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## onegreenev (May 18, 2012)

ricklearned said:


> If I were living in Chico, the midwest or the desert I would do liquid cooling too. I already have a form of liguid cooling. It is called the Pacific Ocean and every day a nice sea breeze picks up like clockwork and keeps the temperature nice and pleasant. With my limited range I can't and won't venture too far inland. It got up to to 72F in Hermosa Beach today vs 99F in Redding, while Miz was enjoying a cool 91F in Phoenix. He is doing some experiments because he thinks he doesn't always need to circulate coolant to his Curtis. He may get some benefits from convection without having to turn on his pump.
> 
> As I have said before, it is simply a matter of priorities based on my circumstances. I would rather put some money into instruments while I figure out my cooling needs. My half inch aluminum heat sink has got to be absorging some of the heat from the Curtis. In the meantime I will be monitoring my controller temperature while squinting at my Curtis 840 display. It will be nice to have some guages that I can see.
> 
> ...


I don't think where you live will determine the need for water cooling or not. It is how you drive. The controller is under the hood and in an environment that promotes lots of heat and reasonably still air. If you go with a finned heat sink you will need more space and a good reliable fan for the sink. It will work. I just think that water cooling for that controller will be the best. My controller is air cooled but will live just fine in my environment. 

Pete


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## ricklearned (Mar 3, 2012)

Ziggythewiz said:


> How much does that console run?


Here is the link to Glass Action:
http://www.glass-action.com/bug.html#unique



The dash was $110 plus $40 shipping to California. The dash and Consol are listed for $170. I didn't see a separate price for the consol but Ralph is easy to get a hold of.


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## onegreenev (May 18, 2012)

I hope your not thinking of cutting the original dash off the car to replace that fiberglass one. If you do please cut it cleanly and properly so if at any time someone else gets it and wants to restore it to original they can reweld a stock dash back in using a clean slate. Best to not cut it. Hope you don't. You should not need to cut it to work. Never really liked those dashes for the VW. I have seen a few. Knew someone who hacked out his original dash with a screwdriver and hammer then installed the fiberglass dash. Totally destroyed the original dash on his early Ghia. 

Pete


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## ricklearned (Mar 3, 2012)

onegreenev said:


> I don't think where you live will determine the need for water cooling or not. It is how you drive. The controller is under the hood and in an environment that promotes lots of heat and reasonably still air. If you go with a finned heat sink you will need more space and a good reliable fan for the sink. It will work. I just think that water cooling for that controller will be the best. My controller is air cooled but will live just fine in my environment.
> 
> Pete


Pete, 

Reasonable minds will differ. I completely agree that the best cooling system would be water cooling. I think the ambient temperature where I am driving will make a lot of difference and might tip the scale toward not needing water cooling. I don't want to throw money at a solution that I don't even know that I will have. Yes, I know Curtiss AC controllers run hot. Yes, Jack R needed water cooling on the same controller that I have but he is in Missouri. He was also pulling a lot more amps than I can. When I watch some of his recent programs he is water cooled, judging by the sweat bands on his shirt. I wore long sleeve shirt all day today. I don't even need air conditioning in my home

I would definitely go with water cooling if I live where you do or anywhere 20 miles east of the coast. As I mentioned earlier in this thread, I initially plan on driving the car very conservatively. I don't even have a deck yet so it gets plenty of air. I have a plan. I have made room below the aluminum plate for a fan. If that doesn't keep it cool there is still heat sink fins and thermal grease. By then it will be winter and I can spend my money on putting back the windows that I have removed. 

So the bottom line is I always appreciate your suggestions but I am going to spend my limited resources on things that I can enjoy likes bells and whistles and the 3Ds. (dash, dials and data)


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## ricklearned (Mar 3, 2012)

onegreenev said:


> I hope your not thinking of cutting the original dash off the car to replace that fiberglass one. If you do please cut it cleanly and properly so if at any time someone else gets it and wants to restore it to original they can reweld a stock dash back in using a clean slate. Best to not cut it. Hope you don't. You should not need to cut it to work. Never really liked those dashes for the VW. I have seen a few. Knew someone who hacked out his original dash with a screwdriver and hammer then installed the fiberglass dash. Totally destroyed the original dash on his early Ghia.
> 
> Pete


Yes I took it off very neatly. I may sell it to a local guy who covers them in vinyl. Remember, I have a Super Beetle with a curved windshield. After I ordered the Glass Action dash I saw this one in the classifieds on The Samba.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

My controller has been doing fine with just a fan blowing on the mounting plate. Tomofreno has been using a finned heat sink, can't remember if he's using a fan or not. You don't need liquid cooling, but it is a nice option to have.


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## Ziggythewiz (May 16, 2010)

ricklearned said:


> Here is the link to Glass Action:
> http://www.glass-action.com/bug.html#unique


Since you seem pretty familiar with custom stuff, are you aware of any current suppliers of clear deck lids (to show off the motor)?


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## ricklearned (Mar 3, 2012)

No I don't but that would be a cool idea. If you had a big enough oven you could make one by putting a sheet of lexan on the deck and letting the heat soften the lexan until it took the shape of the deck. I don't know how you would reinforce it for the hinges, but you could use Dzus fasteners or something similar.


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## ricklearned (Mar 3, 2012)

I'm sitting in one of my favorite Starbucks in Hermosa Beach, and some guy just took a picture of my battery bug. Still waiting for female attention. LOL


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## onegreenev (May 18, 2012)

That will come when the bug looks like Tesla Quality. Guys will ooogle over anything new and interesting. Girls not so much. It must look the part too, then you can garner their attention.


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## onegreenev (May 18, 2012)

ricklearned said:


> Yes I took it off very neatly. I may sell it to a local guy who covers them in vinyl. Remember, I have a Super Beetle with a curved windshield. After I ordered the Glass Action dash I saw this one in the classifieds on The Samba.


Sucks to find one better after you ordered yours. That one looks awesome. Like it better. You going to get the other one too?


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## ricklearned (Mar 3, 2012)

onegreenev said:


> Sucks to find one better after you ordered yours. That one looks awesome. Like it better. You going to get the other one too?


I don't know. I am a little obsessive compulsive so I may wake up one morning and find that I bought it. The guy hasn't shipped the Glass Action one yet and it is a stock item so I probably could cancel or put the money toward a new apron which I probably need sooner. The Glass Action one does have a lot more room for custom gauges than the prettier one does. I have made a temporary plastic dash just to play around with instrument locations and that may give me a better feel for how much real estate I need for my 3D's. (Dials, Digits and Data)


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## ricklearned (Mar 3, 2012)

I just got back from my buddy's body shop and found out that I need to have the rear apron before he can fix the left rear quarter panel. I need the quarter panel fixed so I can mount the rear bumper or whatever I decide to put there. I saw some billet bumpers at Pacific Custom and I may take a look at those. I like the hi tech look of billet aluminium. That is one thing I have in common with Jack R.

I called Ralph at Glass Action and told him to hold off on the dash and replace it with the apron. I had also previously ordered the Speedhut speedo and tach. The speedo is ready to go and will ship with the apron. When the tach comes in, I will decide if I still want the unique dash. I thanked Ralph for being so flexible. He is a great guy to work with and you can reach him by phone 6 days a week until early evening.


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## ricklearned (Mar 3, 2012)

Here is a picture of my battery bug from earlier this morning at the Starbucks parking lot. I love the contrast between it and the big ol SUV that needs to hog two spaces just to park.


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## Ziggythewiz (May 16, 2010)

I'd like to see someone shove an SUV up rhino ramps by hand. Bugs rock!


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## ricklearned (Mar 3, 2012)

I spent the rest of the morning running errands. I paid a parking ticket at City Hall and checked out the Chargepoint charging station there. I parked on the stall next to the charging pedestal and tried to take the plug off the pedestal but apparently you have to swipe your chargepoint card to release the J1772 plug. I don't yet have a J1772 receptacle but am putting that up at a higher priority.

I then did a 3 mile run to Redondo Beach along Pacific Coast Highway. At a signal a big Harley pulled up next to me and asked if it was electric. I gave him the thumbs up. Just then the light changed and I jumped on the pedal and the Harley and I left the others behind. I don't yet have a working speedo so I don't know how fast we were going. I did occasionally hear the sweet chime of my cell logs telling me one of the alarms was going off briefly as the voltage in the pack dropped to 95 volts. The voltage came back at the next signal. 
As I was arriving back home I quickly checked the controller and motor temp and they were 37c or about 99F. My pack voltage was 106.9. I don't have a Lee Hart pack balance setup but the cellogs let me see the voltage for each of the 8 cell segments of my pack. There was less than a 20mv difference between any set of 8 cells. For an unbalanced pack I am liking the data I am getting from the cell logs. 

Two of my four cell logs have the logging function and in the next few days I am going to turn it on and try some controlled drives up some of the steeper streets in town. There is also a local Dyno place that has a $99 special that includes a quarter mile, 0-60 and a couple other things. I think it would be cool to do those in 2nd, 3rd and 4th to see what the different is. I have a sloppy shift rod so I am not going to even try to shift through those tests. I am thinking of shortening the shift stick because it just gets in the way. I stayed in 2nd gear all day.


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## ricklearned (Mar 3, 2012)

Ziggythewiz said:


> Since you seem pretty familiar with custom stuff, are you aware of any current suppliers of clear deck lids (to show off the motor)?


Did some googling and found this, but all the vendor links are gone:

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_IWTr6wGgHR0/S2I3zTLqjLI/AAAAAAAAE-8/-20gH-6rnYY/s320.jpg


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## Ziggythewiz (May 16, 2010)

Yeah, I've seen that one and a few others. Apparently they were very popular once upon a time...


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## ricklearned (Mar 3, 2012)

I got a lot done this week. Here is a picture of the 3rd brake light which I got from Watson's Streetworks. You can barely see it at the top of the rear window. In the background, is my dash mockup. It is just a piece of plastic that allows me to play with the position of my dials, digits and switches. 

Also shown, in the next photo, is my old spare tire which I filled with 150 lbs of concrete to simulate the weight balance I will have when I locate my next batch of batteries there. That extra weight really makes the VW handle nice.. 

Sitting on the concrete in the center of the tire is a cheap 12v charger I got from Harbor Freight. I am trying to get the last bit of life out of the original SLA battery from when I bought the car. Above that is a box that contains a latching relay and a programmable volt meter. The volt meter will trigger the relay to shutoff if the SLA voltage gets below 11.9 volts. This is to keep from completely draining the battery with the small loads that are always on.


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## ricklearned (Mar 3, 2012)

I haven't posted any progress in the past two weeks but I actually got a lot done. Some of it was the infrastructure to bring a 40 amp 240 volt circuit down to my garage from the electrical panel that is fed by the solar panels on the room of my home. 

I did get a great deal on a 3000 watt Elcon charger and I installed that to replace the two Meanwell power supplies that I had wired in series to put out 115 volts (3.59 v per cell) for my 32 cell pack. I have run the Elcon from one of my 110 volt outlets and it makes a 12ga extension cord get warm. I will have to put an ammeter or a killawatt on it to see for sure what it is drawing. The following pictures show where I mounted the Elcon. I have begun structure for for my 2nd phase batttery upgrade above the spare tire well. The charger will work there until I clear up some room above where the gas tank used to be.

I also received my J1772 receptacle and my spoofing board. I will work on installing them next.


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## Ziggythewiz (May 16, 2010)

Keep in mind a kill-a-watt is limited to 1500 watts IIRC, 1800 burst, so if it beeps at you that's why.


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## ricklearned (Mar 3, 2012)

Beep beep. Thanks. I did finally spring for a Klein clamp on ammeter ($100+ at Lowes) that works fot ac and dc. I will need to make a short extension cord that separates a leg so I can get a reading.


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## HPEVS (Jun 6, 2012)

ricklearned said:


> Beep beep. Thanks. I did finally spring for a Klein clamp on ammeter ($100+ at Lowes) that works fot ac and dc. I will need to make a short extension cord that separates a leg so I can get a reading.



Rick,

Keep in mind the Elcon auto detects line voltage. On 115 volt supply it will limit your charge current to 1500 watts. If you set up a 240 volt line it will give you the full 3000 watts.

Brian


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## Zak650 (Sep 20, 2008)

Rick,

For a lower center of gravity I'd suggest putting as many batteries in the spare tire well as you can fit and move the charger up higher. I was able to fit 16 100ah calb cells sideways in their short sides in the spare tire well, just to see how they fit, I didn't try vertically there. They should be vertical and that's how I have 24 of them behind the driver-passenger seats / battery well area with 4 more on each side of the rearmost deck to make up my pack of 32.


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## ricklearned (Mar 3, 2012)

Good tip, that is what I am going to try to do when I purchase the next phase.


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## ricklearned (Mar 3, 2012)

Today I got the wiring installed for my J1772 receptacle and spoofer board. Tomorrow morning I'm going to try one of the free charging spots near my coffee spot.


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## Zak650 (Sep 20, 2008)

ricklearned said:


> Today I got the wiring installed for my J1772 receptacle and spoofer board. Tomorrow morning I'm going to try one of the free charging spots near my coffee spot.


What board/where did you get yor spoofer board?


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## ricklearned (Mar 3, 2012)

It is an AVC2 from Modular EV Power.

http://modularevpower.com/


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## ricklearned (Mar 3, 2012)

It works. I got the EV grin again when I saw that green light come on, and the charging text scroll accross the charging station. 

I use the Chargepoint app on my Android and can watch the status while sipping my Java down the street. I can turn off the charge remotely too. Yahoo


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## Zak650 (Sep 20, 2008)

Hi Rick,

Does the charge point app give you the status while you are in the restaurant? Does the app tell you the kwhrs it is delivering to the car real time?


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## ricklearned (Mar 3, 2012)

Yes if you have a good Internet connection on your phone. I can also look at history. My data from this morning:
Time. 00:18:57
Energy .581 Kwhr
Power. 1.943 Kw
GHG Saving. .825 kg

EDIT: I'm looking at these numbers and reflecting that if I had left it plugged in for and hour I would have charged it with 6KW. I'm not sure that relates to the .581Kwhr Energy figure. My brain is working slower before Java. I think I will go back and do another test. Stay tuned.


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## ricklearned (Mar 3, 2012)

OK, I'm plugged in to the Chargepoint and it is charging. I'm down the street having a latte.

The Android program says I'm charging at 1.9Kw and in 10 minutes I have put in 0.3 Kwhr.
Based in that, and having the benefit of having some Java pumping through my arteties, my math in the above post is backwards.


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## Zak650 (Sep 20, 2008)

ricklearned said:


> OK, I'm plugged in to the Chargepoint and it is charging. I'm down the street having a latte.
> 
> The Android program says I'm charging at 1.9Kw and in 10 minutes I have put in 0.3 Kwhr.
> Based in that, and having the benefit of having some Java pumping through my arteties, my math in the above post is backwards.


I think the ability to remotely check in on the charge staus of your car is a huge deal. It allows you to go and do something else and adjust what you do to the charging stats of your car without physically going back to check in on it.


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## ricklearned (Mar 3, 2012)

That is a great thought. I am in the board of a charity and they have recently added a couple of chargers. Parking is also an issue on that campus, so my EV allows me to give back to my community and have one of the best parking spots.


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## Coulomb (Apr 22, 2009)

ricklearned said:


> OK, I'm plugged in to the Chargepoint and it is charging. I'm down the street having a latte.


I wonder if the rise of EVs and charging points will cause a measurable increase in demand for retail coffee.

Maybe we should look to the retail coffee industry for support for charging infrastructure


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## ricklearned (Mar 3, 2012)

LOL, I don't know that I'm going to drink more coffee. However I am going to shift my coffee drinking from Starbucks to this little coffee cafe located near the free charging station.

And come to think of it I am going to shift my drugstore purchases to Walgreens from CVS because most of the local Walgreens have charging stations.


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## Ziggythewiz (May 16, 2010)

I wish WalMart would follow Walgreens with the installs. I can easily spend an hour there, but only really really sad people can spend an hour at Walgreens.


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## ricklearned (Mar 3, 2012)

Ziggythewiz said:


> I wish WalMart would follow Walgreens with the installs. I can easily spend an hour there, but only really really sad people can spend an hour at Walgreens.


Ya, I know what you mean. Home Depot or Lowes would be great. I had heard a rumor that some Costcos have them but they don't show up on my maps and I stopped by one in Torrance CA yesterday and it didn't appear they had one.


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## Zak650 (Sep 20, 2008)

I vote for movie theaters as a great place for charging stations


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## Ziggythewiz (May 16, 2010)

Yes, but since I'm too cheap to buy gas I probably don't have $20 for a matinee either.


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## Zak650 (Sep 20, 2008)

With enough chargers outside the theater it could be a new technique for dimming the house lights.


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## ricklearned (Mar 3, 2012)

Last week I purchased an EV Link from Home Depot and got it mounted and ran 120 feet of conduit from my garage location to the electrical panel that also receives my solar feed. This week I am going to pull 125 feet of #8 wire and heat that panel up. The EV Link says to use a 40Amp breaker and my panels main breaker is only 50 Amps so I will be interested to see the amperage draw when that charger is running. I will probably have to be careful about running the electric dryer at the same time. Here is a picture of the EV Link and the rough electrical.


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## Zak650 (Sep 20, 2008)

Rick,

You probably have a smart meter on your house. I'm not sure how it works with solar systems but I changed my utility rate structure to time of use and have adjusted my power usage to after midnight to 6 am as much as possible. The dishwasher and electric water heater comes on once a day at 2am, I machine at night as much as possible, and in general avoid heavy electricity use in the afternoon. It cut my electric bill to 1/3 of what it used to be before switching over. Keep that in mind.


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## ricklearned (Mar 3, 2012)

Zak650 said:


> Rick,
> 
> You probably have a smart meter on your house. I'm not sure how it works with solar systems but I changed my utility rate structure to time of use and have adjusted my power usage to after midnight to 6 am as much as possible. The dishwasher and electric water heater comes on once a day at 2am, I machine at night as much as possible, and in general avoid heavy electricity use in the afternoon. It cut my electric bill to 1/3 of what it used to be before switching over. Keep that in mind.


My solar system has significantly reduced my electric bill to a small charge for infrastructure. I also converted my dryer and water heater to electric to soak up some of the excess capacity. The way it works in California with a gridtie solar system is that I put energy into the grid during the day and can take it back at night, albeit at a slightly higher rate than they pay me for the daytime KW's I put into the grid. Needless to say Southern California Edison makes money off my investment. 

I just sat next to a guy at dinner tonight who does home automation and solar systems. My system is 10 years old and he says the new systems with integrated inverters are much more efficient. When I finish my car, I might consider additional capacity which would also shade the flat roof over my bedrooms.


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## Ziggythewiz (May 16, 2010)

ricklearned said:


> albeit at a slightly higher rate than they pay me for the daytime KW's I put into the grid.


I thought that was illegal in states with net metering.


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## Zak650 (Sep 20, 2008)

ricklearned said:


> It is an AVC2 from Modular EV Power.
> 
> http://modularevpower.com/


 
Hi Rick, I have the same module, unwired in at this point. Is your charger connected to the module or car other than the 220 mains and the output connections to the traction battery pack?


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## ricklearned (Mar 3, 2012)

Ziggythewiz said:


> I thought that was illegal in states with net metering.


I don't know the particulars but I do know that SCE has a powerful lobby in California and that at some point the Public Utilities Commission was ineffective against the energy industry.


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## ricklearned (Mar 3, 2012)

Zak650 said:


> Hi Rick, I have the same module, unwired in at this point. Is your charger connected to the module or car other than the 220 mains and the output connections to the traction battery pack?


Zak, 
If I understand your question, my module is connected to the J1772 receptacle and spoofs the signal so the charging station closes the contactors and sends power down the big leads. I got my EVLink wired and its green light came on but I didn't get to see it power the Elcon charger before I had to run to the airport. (I didn't leave it plugged in unattended)
The big leads on the Elcon are connected to the receptacle. I am not using the relay on the AVC2yet but there are some good things to do with that when I get back.


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## Zak650 (Sep 20, 2008)

Rick, I believe the purpose of the relay contacts in avc2 is supposed to keep you from driving away while still plugged in, that would be in the bad macumba arena.


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## ricklearned (Mar 3, 2012)

Yes, bad macumba is right. 

I was going to use part of the relay for an interlock to prevent me from driving away while charging. I think the relay closes regardless if there is current to the charger so it should work to prevent me from driving away. I was going to use the other half of the relay to run a fan to cool my charger. But now that I think about that it would stay on whether the charger is on or off but the plug is connected. There is probably a workaround for that too. evconverter suggested the fan idea and I will ask him how he did it.


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## Zak650 (Sep 20, 2008)

The question is after the charger says it's done does the relay change state? In other words, you start charging after plugging in, after the charger turns off are the feed lines still hot from the EVSE or charge point and therefor the relay hasn't changed state so it could be setup so you can't drive away while t's plugged in. It would seem that if there isn't a connection between the charger and the EVSE then the EVSE mains would still be hot if there isn't anything to tell them to power down. But you can determine this with a multimeter and charging up the car at charge point.


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## ricklearned (Mar 3, 2012)

I don't know about the mains yet because I haven't tested them. I did try my EV Link (I think that is an EVSE) and I inadvertently hit the sleep button so my charger didn't turn on but the green light on the AVC2 spoofer board went on . I assume thqt meant the relay is on. None of my statements are based on observable facts. I am making assumptions based on lights being on. I am slowly starting to understand this whole interface.


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## ricklearned (Mar 3, 2012)

I am now travelling in China and Korea until mid September so I won't have much to contribute until then. I did hear from Allen (evconverter) and he confirmed that the fan control relay would stay on but as he said that small amp draw is a small price to pay for the long term benefit of keeping the charger cool.


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## ricklearned (Mar 3, 2012)

While in a bar in Dalian, China I took this picture of a Heiniken display.


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## Ziggythewiz (May 16, 2010)

So that's how they power their EVs...


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## ricklearned (Mar 3, 2012)

You could run your hands around it for different effects. Curiously, I saw no electric vehicles but lots of smog.


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## ricklearned (Mar 3, 2012)

Zak650 said:


> The question is after the charger says it's done does the relay change state? In other words, you start charging after plugging in, after the charger turns off are the feed lines still hot from the EVSE or charge point and therefor the relay hasn't changed state so it could be setup so you can't drive away while t's plugged in. It would seem that if there isn't a connection between the charger and the EVSE then the EVSE mains would still be hot if there isn't anything to tell them to power down. But you can determine this with a multimeter and charging up the car at charge point.


I have just returned after a vacation in China and Korea and would like to have the time to understand this change in state. I need more time to test this and draw some conclusions. I will report back when I have more data.

In the meantime I have driven a total on 135 miles since getting my GPS speedo instailled in August and am still collecting data since that time. I do not have my JLD 404 calibrated and am still trying to understand the data coming from my EMW display. It appears that I am getting approximatly 225 watts per mile around town. 

More later......


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## Ziggythewiz (May 16, 2010)

You mean configured? The JLD404 doesn't need any calibration. Just plug in the settings, draw some amps, then swap the shunt leads because they're always backwards.


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## ricklearned (Mar 3, 2012)

Yes, I mean configured. I have the volts reading ok but the meager instructions have me going in circles and reading too many amps when driving and zero when charging or regen.


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## ricklearned (Mar 3, 2012)

I just ordered another 38 cells to double my pack amperage to 180Ahrs. (2 spares) See my post in the battery thread:
http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showthread.php?p=324171#post324171

I had an incident two weeks ago where my controller went into limp mode and my cells were at 2,5 per cell. I got the car charged using a portable generator and Once it had a little charge I took the car home and charged it. I had not reset my EMW amphours display and was not paying attention.

Then a few days ago I was charging the pack and one of my cells went to 3.9v before I shut off the charger. These are the type of incidents that Pete (Onegreenev) warned me about and I was lucky this time. I do have more confidence in my EMW Android app the shows me Ahrs left in my pack. I took a twenty mile drive earlier this week and the EMW Android app showed 40% of my pack left. I don't think I want to take it much further below that. 

I do need to configure my JLD404 because I am not getting the same amperate readings as on the EMW display. Does anybody have a good set of instructions for the JLD 404?


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## Ziggythewiz (May 16, 2010)

Supposedly Jack R made a nice instruction book for the JLD404. I don't have much of an issue with the manufacturer's manual though. The only tricky part is the relays; the rest is pretty straight-forward.

What kind of discrepancy are you seeing? Does the EMW use a hall-effect or shunt to count?


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## ricklearned (Mar 3, 2012)

Ziggythewiz said:


> Supposedly Jack R made a nice instruction book for the JLD404. I don't have much of an issue with the manufacturer's manual though. The only tricky part is the relays; the rest is pretty straight-forward.
> 
> What kind of discrepancy are you seeing? Does the EMW use a hall-effect or shunt to count?


I am seeing twice the amps that my other gauges are reading when the motor is running and nothing when I am charging. The EMW uses a hall- effect to count amps. Maybe I will reset the meter to defaults and start over now that my other amp meter is working better. I don't think I can use the the 850 meter from the Curtis because it shows motor amps not pack amps from what I have observed.


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## Ziggythewiz (May 16, 2010)

That's what I thought. Hall effect is affected by temperature, so you have to do some sort of calibration regularly to keep it accurate. 

Where do you have your meters in the circuit? The JLD counts fine while charging but mine is not as accurate in that mode because bad connections will affect it a bit. Lately I've had a .01A transient reading that doesn't matter while driving but if left on all day or night will affect readings.


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## ricklearned (Mar 3, 2012)

My Hall effect sensor is on the positive leg just before it goes through the shutoff switch to the engine. The Shunt is on the negative leg before the switch.


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## Ziggythewiz (May 16, 2010)

Where do the charger leads fit in?


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## ricklearned (Mar 3, 2012)

Ziggythewiz said:


> Where do the charger leads fit in?


Ah, I think I found the problem. I had the negative charger lead on the wrong side of the shunt. I will switch it in the morning and see if that fixes it. 
Thanks Ziggy.


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## Ziggythewiz (May 16, 2010)

Yup. That'll do it


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## wessss77 (Jan 4, 2013)

Hey Rick...it's funny as i am getting ready to do my first conversion and also picked a 73 super beetle and had chosen the AC 35 and was contemplating a 108-114v 180Ah system. My question is how is the acceleration on the AC35 in your beetle? Thanks and thanks for posting as you have here...most appreciated.

I guess this question would also be answered well by HPEV too


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## ricklearned (Mar 3, 2012)

wessss77 said:


> Hey Rick...it's funny as i am getting ready to do my first conversion and also picked a 73 super beetle and had chosen the AC 35 and was contemplating a 108-114v 180Ah system. Thanks and thanks for posting as you have here...most appreciated.
> 
> I guess this question would also be answered well by HPEV too


I love the acceleration and the fact that I don't have to shift. HPEV explained to me that the two motors generate the same initial torque but the AC50 carries the torque a little further into higher RPMs. The power charts on the HPEV site show the two different curves. The AC50 is also longer and would be a tighter fit in a VW.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

I thought the AC35 had slightly higher torque but dropped off sooner. The AC31 that it replaced did.


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## wessss77 (Jan 4, 2013)

ricklearned said:


> I love the acceleration and the fact that I don't have to shift.


You dont have to shift? I noticed you have a clutch and the lightened flywheel. Do you mostly use speeds under like 40 or 50 or is the torque such that you can leave it in like 3rd to go everywhere?


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## ricklearned (Mar 3, 2012)

wessss77 said:


> You dont have to shift? I noticed you have a clutch and the lightened flywheel. Do you mostly use speeds under like 40 or 50 or is the torque such that you can leave it in like 3rd to go everywhere?


No shifting. I had a local shop lighten the flywheel, take off the teeth and balance it. I use it locally so I don't go on the freeway. In second gear my 
rpms match my speed by a factor of 10 ie 30 mph = 3000RPM. A while back I tried third gear and when I stomped on the accelerator the clutch slipped a little. So I have been in second gear ever since.


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## Ziggythewiz (May 16, 2010)

ricklearned said:


> rpms match my speed by a factor of 10 ie 30 mph = 3000RPM.


Really? What are your ratios and tire size? I only get 23 mph at 3k rpm...30 would be much better.


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## ricklearned (Mar 3, 2012)

Ziggythewiz said:


> Really? What are your ratios and tire size? I only get 23 mph at 3k rpm...30 would be much better.


I have 165's in back but I have never run the ratios. The speed measurement is from a Speedhut GPS speedo and the RPMs are from the Curtis 840 display. The donor car was a hodge podge of parts from different years so maybe I have a freeway flyer transmission. Would that explain the difference?


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## onegreenev (May 18, 2012)

I will be be using my Pro Street in my Roadster and I will be using the stock gears with a 3.44 to 1 R&P and should do real well. I drove both of Jack Rickards Speedsters and the 550 Spyder and the transmission is great with those gear ratios. I will let you all know the speeds and rpm in each gear when it is up and running. Bone stock VW Transaxles kinda suck. That BlacK Bug I did my video of before I sold it had a stock tranny and it really sucked vs the freeway flyer trans in my first conversion VW Ghia. The Ghia would do 85 mph in 4th with a 96 volt system and the Bug did not do much better than 65 with the 120 volt system. Stock VW Transmissions suck for electric cars. They work but limit speeds. 

Pete 

I suspect you have a stock tranny in your Bug. Amperage limits your speeds as well as voltage unless you have a great transmission.


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## onegreenev (May 18, 2012)

ricklearned said:


> I have 165's in back but I have never run the ratios. The speed measurement is from a Speedhut GPS speedo and the RPMs are from the Curtis 840 display. The donor car was a hodge podge of parts from different years so maybe I have a freeway flyer transmission. Would that explain the difference?


A freeway flyer would explain the difference. Yes.


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## Ziggythewiz (May 16, 2010)

onegreenev said:


> I suspect you have a stock tranny in your Bug. Amperage limits your speeds as well as voltage unless you have a great transmission.


Probably so, but I think you posted the ratios for the FF once and the ratios were the same or similar to what I have so I didn't pursue it.


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## onegreenev (May 18, 2012)

Freeway flyers have 3.88 to 1 R&P. Your stock has 4.125 to 1 R&P. 

Third gear is a tad different for stock at 1.28 to 1 vs the FF at 1.32 to 1. 

Other than that they are the same. Most FF's retain nearly the same gear ratio as stock but change the R&P pretty drastically. 

Pete 

You can however request on custom built FF's any gear ratio you want for a totally custom job.


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## Ziggythewiz (May 16, 2010)

onegreenev said:


> Freeway flyers have 3.88 to 1 R&P. Your stock has 4.125 to 1 R&P.


Yeah, so only 6% different. Not really worth switching until I've fully worn this one out. 20-30% would have been worth considering.


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## ricklearned (Mar 3, 2012)

onegreenev said:


> Freeway flyers have 3.88 to 1 R&P. Your stock has 4.125 to 1 R&P.
> ...........


So in second gear (2.06) my overall ratio is almost 8 to 1. That is close to the magic number Jack Rickard talks about and which is in my RAV4 EV. I don't know how much more the taller 165's change that.


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## Ziggythewiz (May 16, 2010)

ricklearned said:


> I don't know how much more the taller 165's change that.


The width alone won't affect much. What's the rest of the tire size?


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## ricklearned (Mar 3, 2012)

Ziggythewiz said:


> The width alone won't affect much. What's the rest of the tire size?


165R80-15 (diameter 25") 

On the front I have 135-15 (diameter 23.5") but remember that I have a GPS speedo so the smaller tires will not affect speedometer.


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## Ziggythewiz (May 16, 2010)

Same (rear) here...maybe my tires (and max speed) are higher than I've thought...

Would need a tach to feel safe testing it though.


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