# [EVDL] Hammer crimper + soldering?



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

If you have a proper crimp, then soldering is useless because there is NO
ROOM for the solder. The crimped connection ends up as a solid mass of
copper.

> I read your post regarding crimping vs. soldering only, and using solder
> to remove air from connections.
>
> I've been using the hammer crimper and none of my cables have come apart
> in one year but I'd still like to upgrade to the hex crimper now that I've
> decided that I'm firmly in the EV camp. I'd like to avoid internal
> corrosion on the lug ends and was thinking of crimping and soldering.
>
> Do you (or anyone) agree that crimping AND soldering is a good practice?
> Or is it overkill? Or maybe just beneficial if you're using the hammer
> crimper?
>
>
>
> Rich A.Marylandhttp://www.austinev.org/evalbum/371.html
> _________________________________________________________________
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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Hello Richard,

We have never done any soldering in any of are cable and wire terminals any 
longer. The 360 degree hex dies perform a solid mass connection. Use a 
barrel that will allow at least two crimps on the barrel.

The fine strand copper wires will fracture and crystallize when heated. You 
can break off the wire terminal by just bending it.

The heavy duty heat shrink with a sealent that starts out with a 1/16 inch 
wall thickness and ends up with about 1/8 inch wall thick does all the 
sealing you need. We now use this type of heat shrink for covering splices 
in direct bury conductors.

This heat shrink comes in stiff sticks ranging from 9 to 36 inches long, 
made by Burdy or Thomas and Bettes that you can get at Home Depot or I can 
from our Home Depot.

Roland






----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Richard Acuti" <[email protected]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, April 03, 2008 8:28 AM
Subject: [EVDL] Hammer crimper + soldering?


>
> Roland,
>
> I read your post regarding crimping vs. soldering only, and using solder 
> to remove air from connections.
>
> I've been using the hammer crimper and none of my cables have come apart 
> in one year but I'd still like to upgrade to the hex crimper now that I've 
> decided that I'm firmly in the EV camp. I'd like to avoid internal 
> corrosion on the lug ends and was thinking of crimping and soldering.
>
> Do you (or anyone) agree that crimping AND soldering is a good practice? 
> Or is it overkill? Or maybe just beneficial if you're using the hammer 
> crimper?
>
>
>
> Rich A.Marylandhttp://www.austinev.org/evalbum/371.html
> _________________________________________________________________
> Use video conversation to talk face-to-face with Windows Live Messenger.
> http://www.windowslive.com/messenger/connect_your_way.html?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_Refresh_messenger_video_042008
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
> 

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Do you (or anyone) agree that crimping AND soldering
> is a good practice? Or is it overkill? Or maybe just
> beneficial if you're using the hammer crimper?

I made the mistake of drilling out some terminals that
were pre-crimped on some cable I had. Only the
terminals I drilled out corroded (and corroded a
_lot_) on my floddies. Someday (soon, I hope) I am
going to remove the cables, clean them up, dip them in
liquid flux (flux used for wave soldering) and dip
them in a solder pot. I have full confidence in the
crimp that these cables came with, and intend the
solder to seal up any bare copper.

Other things I did when I made up these cables was use
that expensive heat shrink that has hot melt glue on
the inside of it. I bought both red and black. 
Before shrinking them on, I used hot melt glue to seal
the gap between the terminal and the cable insulation.
Some of my terminals where such that if you stripped
off way too much insulation, the wire could go all the
way through (not that you would want to). On these, I
filled that hole with hot melt glue. All in all, I
think I did a good job, with no signs of corrosion,
except for the terminals I drilled out :-(

- Steven Ciciora


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

This has been a great series of posts. I wired up a kit car about two 
years and discovered the joys of crimping...I'm going to print out 
these and put them in a notebook for future reference. 

I was wondering if Rich or another member could discuss the pros and 
cons of the hammer crimper vs the hex crimper. I'm going to be wiring 
my EV later this year and I'd like to get the easiest, most effective 
tool for a novice I can, even if I have to spend a little more. After 
hand crimping with a hand crimper what seemed like hundreds of crimps 
(and redoing plenty of them), I don't want to go through the same 
experience again.

Thanks,
Dustin





> Richard Acuti wrote:
> 
> >
> > Roland,
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> --- Richard Acuti <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> >> Do you (or anyone) agree that crimping AND
> soldering
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Most (all?) of the hydrualic crimpers have a pressure relief when you get
a good crimp, i.e. you keeop pumping the handles until they go soft.

Some of the strongarm crimpers have a mechanism that won't let you open
them until you've crimped them far enough.
Thomas&Betts calls it a "Sure-Stake",
ebay item 270224269886 with BIN of $195 has this.

In fact I think all of the TBM series that ends in S have the Sure-Stake.
I.e. TBM6S has it but TBM6 does not.

P.s. if you buy a crimper that uses dies, make SURE it comes with dies. 
The one I listed does, there is another (new) TBM6S on ebay that does not.

Also be careful to get the right kind of crimper for your cables. I.e. if
you are using AWG cables and lugs, do NOT buy a metric cable crimper (die
sizes 10mm,16mm,25mm etc.)

> This has been a great series of posts. I wired up a kit car about two
> years and discovered the joys of crimping...I'm going to print out
> these and put them in a notebook for future reference.
>
> I was wondering if Rich or another member could discuss the pros and
> cons of the hammer crimper vs the hex crimper. I'm going to be wiring
> my EV later this year and I'd like to get the easiest, most effective
> tool for a novice I can, even if I have to spend a little more. After
> hand crimping with a hand crimper what seemed like hundreds of crimps
> (and redoing plenty of them), I don't want to go through the same
> experience again.
>
> Thanks,
> Dustin
>
>
>
>


> Richard Acuti wrote:
> >
> >>
> >> Roland,
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> On 3 Apr 2008 at 15:43, Dustin Stern wrote:
> 
> > I was wondering if Rich or another member could discuss the pros and
> > cons of the hammer crimper vs the hex crimper.
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Dustin Stern wrote:
> 
> > I was wondering if Rich or another member could discuss the
> > pros and cons of the hammer crimper vs the hex crimper. I'm
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Thanks Roger and David! The information you have shared will be a big 
help to me when I start wiring up my car. Both for the high voltage 
lines and the 12v wiring. And yes, I was working with insulated 
connectors and entry level crimpers. I'm going to surf waytek tonight 


Thanks again,
Dustin





> Roger Stockton wrote:
> 
> > Dustin Stern wrote:
> >
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

My experience with hammer-crimped cables has been good...my primary observation is that the type of cable has some effect on how good it stays on.

My car was originally cabled with 2/0 cable that had thick, stiff strands. The cables were also BARELY long enough in some cases and eventually, the crimp or the cable kind of relaxed and let go. I always inspect my stuff and whenever I saw this happening, I'd buy 2/0 welding cable to replace them with. I find that the hammer crimper (when used properly), and when the cables have enough length to minimize strain, grab and hold better.

I've been sealing off the ends with a self-vulcanizing tape used to seal high power antenna feed cables that are exposed to the sea. As you wrap, you pull it tight and the stuff just kind of melts onto itself. Still...I think I like the adhesive heatshrink better so I will probably migrate to that. 



Rich A.Marylandhttp://www.austinev.org/evalbum/371.html
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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Roger Stockton wrote:
> 
> > I'm guessing that you are refering to the horrible insulated terminal type of crimps? I replaced so many of these types of connectors with proper soldered connections during the years I worked in my father's auto repair shop that I avoid them wherever possible.
> >
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

A number of folks have mentioned about the
inconsistency of the inexpensive hammer crimper style.

One person (that I noticed) mentioned that you can
also use a vise on some hammer crimpers.

Has anyone tried that method and can comment on
whether it gave more consistent/better results than
just pounding with a hammer?

Thanks,

Scott

"To err is human, to include-less-text-in-your-replies
is kinda-sorta-divine (with a small 'd')"


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

I've used that stuff for RF cables and it's nice, but I've had to go back
and fix connections that were old (read several years) and the stuff they
used had turned to slime. I'm not sure if it was an older type of
self-vulcanizing, or maybe some kind of petroleum based tape, but whatever
it was was a real pain.

The other thing I've noticed is that a lot of the self-vulcanizing tape
does NOT stand up well to AZ sunshine (not much does) and will dry, crack,
split after a year or so. I started wrapping it in plain old electrical
tape as a sort of sunscreen. Works pretty good and lasts well.

Not sure what effects battery acid, etc would have on it.

> I've been sealing off the ends with a self-vulcanizing tape used to seal
> high power antenna feed cables that are exposed to the sea.

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

You still need a gorilla and ape to be able to turn the handle on even a 
large vise for 2/0 and larger.

Could get a hydralic or air jack and use it to push the hammer crimper. A 
person up the street of me rig one of these bench type presses using a air 
jack and it works good.

Roland


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "S Collins" <[email protected]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, April 03, 2008 1:37 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Hammer crimper + soldering?


> A number of folks have mentioned about the
> inconsistency of the inexpensive hammer crimper style.
>
> One person (that I noticed) mentioned that you can
> also use a vise on some hammer crimpers.
>
> Has anyone tried that method and can comment on
> whether it gave more consistent/better results than
> just pounding with a hammer?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Scott
>
> "To err is human, to include-less-text-in-your-replies
> is kinda-sorta-divine (with a small 'd')"
>
>
> 
> ____________________________________________________________________________________
> You rock. That's why Blockbuster's offering you one month of Blockbuster 
> Total Access, No Cost.
> http://tc.deals.yahoo.com/tc/blockbuster/text5.com
>
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
> 

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

I had to wire up 24 batteries 2 circuit breakers, 2 disconnects, motor
and controller. All in all about 70 crimps.
Personally I won't trade my burndy revolver for anything. The name
revolver comes from the fact that the head swivels to get into tight
places.
Although it is hydraulic, it always goes all the way closed every time.

The problem I have with soldering is it is difficult to do correct. I
will mostly go by what a TV repair man and my High-School electronics
teacher said. use solder on solid wire, crimp connectors on stranded
wire. "The solder wicks up the wire and defeats the purpose of stranded
wires". I accept the exception of really good strain relief and an
isolation area.

Anyone in the Fresno are that needs to borrow a crimper, call me.

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Rich Acuti asked:
>> Do you (or anyone) agree that crimping AND soldering is a good
>> practice? Or is it overkill? Or maybe just beneficial if you're
>> using the hammer crimper?

From: Peter VanDerWal <[email protected]>
> If you have a proper crimp, then soldering is useless because there
> is NO ROOM for the solder. The crimped connection ends up as a solid
> mass of copper.

I see crimp-and-solder as a belt-and-suspenders solution. Each is a backup for weaknesses in the other. If you have a bad crimp, soldering will fix it. A bad solder joint will be fine if you had a good crimp first.

I also tend to solder after crimping because it forms a corrosion resistant coating. If battery acid gets in a crimped copper connection, it will eat it apart from the inside. Soldering basically coats all the exposed copper with tin/lead, which is far more corrosion resistant.

--
Those who say it cannot be done should not interrupt the one who is
doing it. -- Chinese proverb
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart-at-earthlink.net

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

I get much more consistent results on small wires crimping on
uninsulated terminals and using shrink tubing over the joint. The
insulated terminals give problems especially the combination of
inexpensive terminals and a cheap crimping tool.


> I'm guessing that you are refering to the horrible insulated terminal type of crimps? I replaced so many of these types of connectors with proper soldered connections during the years I worked in my father's auto repair shop that I avoid them wherever possible.
>
> If you must use them, use a proper, good quality ratcheting crimper to install them. Such a tool may cost $30-200 (or more!) vs <$10 for the more common non-ratcheting variety, but you don't have to redo very many crimps to appreciate the value of the better tool.
>
> For instance, here is an example of a ratcheting type tool:
>
> <http://order.waytekwire.com/CGI-BIN/LANSAWEB?WEBEVENT+L0E0F606F9D7488001CFC071+M37+ENG>
>
> Or, for similar money you could opt for a tool with interchangeable dies, and then buy dies only for the particular types of terminals you need to work with. An example is this tool from Waytek ($40 for the tool, and $30-$40 for each set of dies):
>
> <http://order.waytekwire.com/IMAGES/M37/catalog/220_030.PDF>
>
> Bear in mind that the die for crimping the little insulated terminals is different from that used for crimping the same size non-insulated terminals.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Roger.
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
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http://stormselectric.blogspot.com/
Storm

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Lee,

*NO* soldering in wire harnesess and cables (new installations or 
repairs) is allowed in automotive industry. If environment is
vibration prone, it WILL fail. As always, there are exceptions
you might dig up, but in general crimping is the only accepted
and approved method.

In reputable repair shops technicians who splice wiring by
twisting and by soldering together where spec calls for crimps,
get fired (or should get fired).

If crimp is done properly, e.g. with enough force to provide cold
weld, there is no place for solder and no reason to use it.
If you displace air by solder, this means you mask off defect -
air should not be there in a first place and such connection
*will* eventually fail, solder or no solder. To prevent corrosion
from oxidation use Noalox or any other compound meant to keep
air oxygen out.

Now,
I do solder gauge 10 to 16 wires when experiment in my EV to make
quick connections and test things. But I know these are not permanent
and going to withstand, so once I'm done, I cut off soldered connections
and splice wires with crimps.

Few photos of my [modified bolt cutter] crimper and crimps,
these were interconnecting straps in my ultracapacitor bank:

http://www.metricmind.com/ac_honda/images/strap2.jpg
http://www.metricmind.com/ac_honda/images/strap4.jpg
http://www.metricmind.com/ac_honda/images/strap5.jpg
http://www.metricmind.com/ac_honda/images/strap7.jpg

I never used hex crimps in my EV, and don't miss it.
Not that there is something wrong with it, I just shaped
my crimper after dents left by OEM professional crimper,
and it's been fine for years.

Handles on this cutter are about 1m long - enough leverage
for high pressure. Cutters were $20 from a pawn shop.

In short, soldering does *nothing* to improve good crimp
and you must re-do bad one anyway. Adding soldering to a
bad crimp will not turn it into a good one.

--
Victor
'91 ACRX - something different




> Lee Hart wrote:
> > Rich Acuti asked:
> >>> Do you (or anyone) agree that crimping AND soldering is a good
> >>> practice? Or is it overkill? Or maybe just beneficial if you're
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Metric Mind wrote:
> > Lee,
> >
> > *NO* soldering in wire harnesses and cables (new installations or
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Lee Hart wrote:
> > Metric Mind wrote:
> >> Lee,
> >>
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Metric Mind wrote:
> 
> > Sure, but again, I'm talking about wiring only. You won't
> > find OEM specification calling for soldering wires together
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Roger Stockton <[email protected]> wrote:
> > My experience is that soldered connections are more reliable than aftermarket insulated crimp connections in a vehicle. > The soldered connections may or may not be as reliable as OEM crimped connections, but that is not the point.
> 
> Roger,
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Sounds good but because we can't see then nor did any one see how you 
actually did the job only time will tell if it was a good job or 
not. : )


> David Nelson wrote:
> 
> > On Sun, Apr 6, 2008 at 8:57 PM, Roger Stockton <[email protected]
> > q.com> wrote:
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Roger Stockton wrote:
> ...
> > Victor, I for one would gladly read these pages if you went to the
> > trouble of posting them on your site. (And I won't try debating their
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Roger Stockton wrote:
> ...
> > Victor, I for one would gladly read these pages if you went to the
> > trouble of posting them on your site. (And I won't try debating their
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

This is developing into more of an argument than a debate.

There are alternative approaches for everything we do (crimp vs solder, 
AC vs DC, flooded vs sealed, etc.) *Everything* can be done more than 
one way. It's rarely a matter of "right" versus "wrong". More often, 
it's a matter that different circumstances favor different approaches.

When we want to compare different ways of doing something, let's 
concentrate on the facts, rather than opinions. If we just shout at each 
other that "soldering is bad" or "crimping is bad", we leave newbies 
with the impression that all connections are bad, with no sound criteria 
for judgement.

*Billions* of reliable high-current connections have been made by 
soldering and crimping, as well as many other methods (screwing, 
welding, insulation displacement, wire-wrap, etc.) But you can find 
failed examples of any of them, too. The important things to discuss are 
the *reasons* for the failures. How do you make a reliable connection? 
What tools, what techniques? How do you test it? What went wrong when a 
connection fails, and how can you prevent it?

This is the sort of information that is useful to others.
-- 
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

That seems reasonable.

IMHO if you don't know what you're doing (i.e. inexperienced) soldering is
EASY to do wrong. Too hot, too cold, wrong flux, wrong solder, wrong
technique, trying to use solder to provide a mechanical connection, etc.
etc.
You can make a good solder connection, but you have to know what you're
doing and have the right tools and materials.

On the other hand, if you use a good quality ratcheting crimper, it's hard
to make a bad crimp connection. It can be done, but you have to work at
it.

For a newbie, I'd reccomend the crimper.

> This is developing into more of an argument than a debate.
>
> There are alternative approaches for everything we do (crimp vs solder,
> AC vs DC, flooded vs sealed, etc.) *Everything* can be done more than
> one way. It's rarely a matter of "right" versus "wrong". More often,
> it's a matter that different circumstances favor different approaches.
>
> When we want to compare different ways of doing something, let's
> concentrate on the facts, rather than opinions. If we just shout at each
> other that "soldering is bad" or "crimping is bad", we leave newbies
> with the impression that all connections are bad, with no sound criteria
> for judgement.
>
> *Billions* of reliable high-current connections have been made by
> soldering and crimping, as well as many other methods (screwing,
> welding, insulation displacement, wire-wrap, etc.) But you can find
> failed examples of any of them, too. The important things to discuss are
> the *reasons* for the failures. How do you make a reliable connection?
> What tools, what techniques? How do you test it? What went wrong when a
> connection fails, and how can you prevent it?
>
> This is the sort of information that is useful to others.
> --
> Ring the bells that still can ring
> Forget the perfect offering
> There is a crack in everything
> That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
> --
> Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
>
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> David Nelson wrote:
> 
> > My Gizmo was wired with the after market insulated crimp
> > connections.In trying to trouble shoot some intermittent
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Metric Mind wrote:
> 
> > I'll make an effort to take a photo and post relevant pages
> > for all's benefits.
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Roger Stockton wrote:
> > Metric Mind wrote:
> >
> >> I'll make an effort to take a photo and post relevant pages
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Thanks Victor. Interesting manual. Unfortunately, in the conversion
process there is no "original condition" to work to. Their bias
against soldering is probably well taken. Quality control is the
problem. Many of us who think we solder well don't really.



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http://stormselectric.blogspot.com/
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