# Tesla's Model S is the lowest drag coefficient (0.24) of any current production car.



## somanywelps (Jan 25, 2012)

Any citation on the crush machine breaking?


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## Jason Lattimer (Dec 27, 2008)

Its a direct quote from the article. I would love to have seen it if it were true, or maybe just some colorful journalism.


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## bjfreeman (Dec 7, 2011)

etischer said:


> Tesla's Model S is the lowest drag coefficient (0.24) of any current production car. The roof crush resistance is also double the requirement (it broke the crush machine). Performance versions make 416 hp at 5-8600 rpm and 443 lb-ft at 0-5100 rpm. 0-60 in 4.4 seconds!
> 
> Read more: http://m.motortrend.com/roadtests/alternative/1206_2012_tesla_model_s_first_drive/index.html


LOL now I wonder how you know all this. (tongue in cheek)
I am curious the meaning of 1-speed automatic	.
scathing my head on how to figure total mileage for a charge from
*EPA CITY/HWY FUEL ECON	*88/90 mpg 
*ENERGY CONSUMPTION, CITY/HWY	*38/37 kW-hrs/100 miles 
I remember a figure of 275 miles.


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## Tatsushige (Mar 24, 2011)

Jason Lattimer said:


> Its a direct quote from the article. I would love to have seen it if it were true, or maybe just some colorful journalism.


I would agree with the Colourful Journalism.


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## nucleus (May 18, 2012)

bjfreeman said:


> LOL now I wonder how you know all this. (tongue in cheek)
> I am curious the meaning of 1-speed automatic	.
> scathing my head on how to figure total mileage for a charge from
> *EPA CITY/HWY FUEL ECON	*88/90 mpg
> ...


Keep in mind they have three battery pack levels available; 45kWh, 60kWh, and 85kWh.

I don't what they mean by a one speed automatic, maybe that you move a lever between Park, Drive and Reverse?


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## etischer (Jun 16, 2008)

nucleus said:


> I don't what they mean by a one speed automatic, maybe that you move a lever between Park, Drive and Reverse?


By Automatic, they mean there is no clutch and it does not require shifting manually.


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## rochesterricer (Jan 5, 2011)

They called the final transaxle in the Roadster the same thing. It just means direct drive distributed to the wheels through a transaxle.


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## JRoque (Mar 9, 2010)

Congratulations, Eric. You must be very proud of Tesla's achieved milestone with Model S. Looking forward to see all of those S delivered and the start of X work. Any "approved" bits and pieces of gen 3 that you can throw at us are greatly appreciated.

JR


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## Tatsushige (Mar 24, 2011)

JRoque said:


> Congratulations, Eric. You must be very proud of Tesla's achieved milestone with Model S. Looking forward to see all of those S delivered and the start of X work. Any "approved" bits and pieces of gen 3 that you can throw at us are greatly appreciated.
> 
> JR


I would like to see more Nissans, Mitsubishi, Subaru EVs on the road also .. I do not care who the maker is as long as it is a EV then it gets my tick of approval.

Would also like to see these heads of state that slap the public with high green house taxes and carbon taxes like the bitch PM in Australia start being driven about in EVs and not bloody V8s, love how they tell the public and punish the pubilc for not going green, but then jumps in a V8 powered car with half a dozen V8 powered police car in tow.

The Japanese PM is also a classic, telling everyone we need to go green and then jumps in a V12 powered Toyota Century. Jackass!


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## Jason Lattimer (Dec 27, 2008)

They probably refer to it as a one speed automatic so traditional people know how to relate to it. When I told my dad, who is a classic car nut, it was direct drive with no transmission he looked puzzled and asked if it was a CVT. I had to explain to him it was like the motor was connected directly to the differential. Now being a car guy, he knows what a differential is but a lot of normal people would not. The one speed automatic thing explained it perfectly to my wife, who could care less how it was powered.


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## somanywelps (Jan 25, 2012)

I just call it a single speed gearbox, people get the idea. Or an ~8:1 rear differential direct drive.


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## bjfreeman (Dec 7, 2011)

watch a live stream of the Tesla first Model S' being delivered to their customers. The web link is here:
http://www.teslamoto...l-s-has-arrived

It is live from the Fremont California Tesla Factory today Friday June 22, at 3:30 PM PDT, or 5:30 in my Central time.


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## Mark C (Jun 25, 2010)

All the great news about the Tesla sedan makes perfect sense to all of us. Purpose built EV, therefore great aero = greater range for the energy on board, the stronger body = better crash survivability & nobody anywhere can fault them for cheaping out on the structure. 

The best mpge rating may be a bragging point to Mitsu, as in 112 mpge but that kinda falls down a bit when you look at the range in the low 60 miles neighborhood. So the Model S only scores 89 mpge, big deal, the base battery equipped model also EPA trumps all else in the range department at a minimum of twice a Leaf / Focus / i-MiEV range. Now, that is bragging material.

I say "GO TESLA!"


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## jeremyjs (Sep 22, 2010)

Not to mention it'll go like a raped ape, handle like it's on rails with that low center of gravity, and have as much room inside as a mini van. A purpose built EV chassis is definitely the way to go. With everything to drive the car under your feet, providing additional structural support, leaving the whole interior of the car for seating and storage you're not as good as an ICE vehicle, you're better in nearly every way. If only I had the money to buy one.


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## Tatsushige (Mar 24, 2011)

Do not knock the LEAF, they are getting a new battery pack that will double its range and face lift this year. they can also now power your house in case of blackouts ...


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## Mark C (Jun 25, 2010)

Tatsushige said:


> Do not knock the LEAF, they are getting a new battery pack that will double its range and face lift this year. they can also now power your house in case of blackouts ...


I mean no disrespect to Nissan and the LEAF, far from it. The wife and I've test driven a LEAF and an i-MiEV as possible replacements for my current ride. We both liked the value proposition of the LEAF, and its comfortable ride. It's already wife approved and our delay buying is for me to get all of our ducks in a row so to speak, and means the version I get should do just fine. 

I {mis?}understood the Vehicle to Home device to be an optional item, but it looks like it could be of great value.


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## Tatsushige (Mar 24, 2011)

Mark C said:


> I {mis?}understood the Vehicle to Home device to be an optional item, but it looks like it could be of great value.


I would wait until the end of this year when the new LEAF are imported in the US/Canada .. the new LEAF has a face lift, larger battery pack doubling its range, a improved heater/Aircon so not to drain the battery and LEAF to home is standard (In Japan it is anyway, so the NA LEAF should be the same).

0.170Chrysler Ghia Dart1955http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Automobile_drag_coefficient#cite_note-780.170Chrysler Ghia Dart1955http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Automobile_drag_coefficient#cite_note-78


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## rochesterricer (Jan 5, 2011)

What is your source for the info on the Leaf battery pack? I haven't heard anything about them doubling the range. I've read that the range in the cold with be significantly improved, but that is because of the new heater design.


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## Jason Lattimer (Dec 27, 2008)

rochesterricer said:


> What is your source for the info on the Leaf battery pack? I haven't heard anything about them doubling the range. I've read that the range in the cold with be significantly improved, but that is because of the new heater design.


I've heard the same rumor, but I don't remember where. I wouldn't put much faith in it or it would be all over the news. It would also be a damn near 50 kwh battery pack.


Found it.....here it is on Tree Hugger.....http://www.treehugger.com/cars/nissan-working-on-new-battery-to-double-the-leafs-range-by-2015.html


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## rochesterricer (Jan 5, 2011)

Article is from 2009 though, and it doesn't say the 2013 model year.


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## Tatsushige (Mar 24, 2011)

rochesterricer said:


> What is your source for the info on the Leaf battery pack? I haven't heard anything about them doubling the range. I've read that the range in the cold with be significantly improved, but that is because of the new heater design.


 
I live in Japan, 5 minutes from the Nissan Plant and 10 minutes from a dealer. The girlfriend and I went to the dealer about 3 weeks ago about a LEAF, we both do a lot of driving and was told by the dealer to wait for the new version out later this year. The newer version will have a larger pack to double its range, a new heater/aircon not to drain the battery and that can be used non-stop, LEAF to house as standard, plus a facelift mainly the front of the vehicle. 

How long before the new LEAF hits the USA, no idea but searching the net in Japanese they say by the 12th month of 2012 or the latest 4th month of 2013.


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## rochesterricer (Jan 5, 2011)

Dealers aren't generally reliable sources of info. Even when they are close to the factory. It could be true, but I'll wait till Nissan releases the info before I start jumping up and down.


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## Tatsushige (Mar 24, 2011)

rochesterricer said:


> Dealers aren't generally reliable sources of info. Even when they are close to the factory. It could be true, but I'll wait till Nissan releases the info before I start jumping up and down.


I think I would take his word at this point of time, reading on Japanses sites the LEAF is getting a new look and other improvements .. If he wanted to make a sale he would have tried to make me buy the current LEAF ...

And from what I have been informed, the new LEAF does not include a price raise.. Well not in Japan anyways!


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## rochesterricer (Jan 5, 2011)

I've heard way too many claims like this from dealerships in the past, but I will happily eat my words if the 2013 Leaf comes with a 48kwh battery pack


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## palmer_md (Jul 22, 2011)

rochesterricer said:


> I've heard way too many claims like this from dealerships in the past, but I will happily eat my words if the 2013 Leaf comes with a 48kwh battery pack


I'll happily return to the dealership and trade mine in for a new model.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Double the range, with no increase in price. Sure.....


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## Tatsushige (Mar 24, 2011)

JRP3 said:


> Double the range, with no increase in price. Sure.....


You like to come to Japan and ask?


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

I'll just wait and see what happens. I'd be quite happy to be wrong, but I'm 99% sure I won't be. Dealers often know less about their vehicles than dedicated enthusiasts, and almost nothing about battery chemistry. Unless Nissan has a battery chemistry breakthrough which they've kept completely secret, except for telling their dealers, double the range at the same price can't happen.


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## Tatsushige (Mar 24, 2011)

Nissan from what I have read are trying to control the EV market here, as no one else but for Mitsubishi are doing pure EVs. The idea of no price hike is to get more people in to EVs and give up ICE, after the quake last year the price of fuel has been going up and up, so Nissan is trying to get people in to EVs that is why no price rise for the new LEAF. 

People change their cars ever every 5 years or there about. You can pick up a A-Class Benz for next to nothing as second hand cars the price is very low as the older the car the higher the road tax you pay. A second hand LEAF is only half the price of a new LEAF that is how fast they have lost value. So Nissan knows if their is a price hike in the new LEAF people will not purchase them, so at the moment the new LEAF will be the same price. They will most likely make the money up in the overseas markets like the US and Europe.

The price of cars in Japan do not go up with new models, most times for the first few months the cars are on special to get people in to them.


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## bjfreeman (Dec 7, 2011)

as with many discussion here the demographics of the area one lives influences the economy.
each country has ways of dealing with things that may not be in an other country.
Back to Tesla model S.
They plan to manufacture 50,000.
@$90K+ how many will buy at this price.
remember the key is to get a production flow so the price can come down


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

The Model S has a range of prices, from $57K and up, and they plan to ship 5,000 cars this year building to 20,000 per year. Then next year they plan to start shipping the Model X SUV, then the next generation less expensive sedan in 2014-15.


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## PhantomPholly (Aug 20, 2008)

JRP3 said:


> Double the range, with no increase in price. Sure.....


For two decades battery capacity has doubled about every 10 years (see page 3). Oh, I don't know - it may be entirely reasonable (...or, not...). However, it's useful to remember that things like nano-materials science is just taking off and new research techniques are now evaluating the potential of thousands of materials in the same time it used to take to review a single material in the past.

There are several claims put forth in just the past year which show enormous promise. Envia claims they will have EV batteries 1/3 the weight and 1/2 the cost per KWh on the market within 18 months. 

While none have yet proven out YET, only one needs to succeed to make this a reasonable claim.


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## PhantomPholly (Aug 20, 2008)

Tatsushige said:


> People change their cars ever every 5 years or there about.


Small correction on this - last I heard the average fleet age is about 10-11 years. That means that it takes about 10 years for 50% of cars to be replaced.

While true that those with more money buy new cars more frequently (some every year), even if an electric Mercedes came out this year with a 1,000 mile range for $20,000 it would still be about 10 years before half of the world's cars were electric.

That, by the way, is not necessarily a bad thing. Even a 10% reduction in petrol cars would have a noticeable impact on gas prices. Thus, for all of you who want EVs to catch on quickly by keeping gas prices high, promoting too many subsidies to achieve that goal may actually have the opposite effect. Every action has "unintended consequences..."


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## Tatsushige (Mar 24, 2011)

PhantomPholly said:


> Small correction on this - last I heard the average fleet age is about 10-11 years. That means that it takes about 10 years for 50% of cars to be replaced





PhantomPholly said:


> While true that those with more money buy new cars more frequently (some every year), even if an electric Mercedes came out this year with a 1,000 mile range for $20,000 it would still be about 10 years before half of the world's cars were electric.
> 
> That, by the way, is not necessarily a bad thing. Even a 10% reduction in petrol cars would have a noticeable impact on gas prices. Thus, for all of you who want EVs to catch on quickly by keeping gas prices high, promoting too many subsidies to achieve that goal may actually have the opposite effect. Every action has "unintended consequences..."


Nope sorry, once a car is 5 years old the road tax on it doubles, you have to have it inspected every year and passed to be used on the road. Most families will sell the car and buy a new one.

Yes there are cars on the road that are 10 years old but they are normally owned by students or poor people. 

I have not seen anything over 15 years old on the road. No correction I did see a 1988 Countach a few years ago, but I bet that guy was paying for it. 

But most of the cars over 8 years old are now shipped to Africa and sold off, even public buses, ambulances are fire trucks are getting shipped off.

They showed a program a few weeks ago about Africa and it was funny seeing a Ambulance with all the Japanese markings on it still, being used as a Bus.

This was on the news a few days ago, about Japanese savings.




> Savings for average Japanese family top ¥16 million ($US200,000)
> 
> The average Japanese family has ¥16.64 million ($US208,000) in savings, more than twice the average annual salary in the nation of 128 million.
> 
> ...


This is one of the reasons Japanese buy new cars so easy.

Also Japan has just found a hell of a lot of Rare Earth which means once they start mining it they no longer need to rely on China and I can but EV will really take off ...

This was in the news Yesterday



> Saturday, June 30, 2012
> 
> Major rare earth deposit found near remote isle of Minamitorishima
> 
> ...


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

> Once a mining technique is developed to secure the minerals from the seabed, Japan, which now relies mostly on China for rare earths, may be able to attain complete self-sufficiency.


Translation: Yeah there is a pile of stuff down there but right now we can't get it.


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## Tatsushige (Mar 24, 2011)

JRP3 said:


> Translation: Yeah there is a pile of stuff down there but right now we can't get it.


You need to read again. 



> Even with current technology, it is possible to collect at least 15,000 tons of the mud per day, Kato said, adding exploration should be carried out as soon as possible to determine where rare earth minerals can be collected most efficiently.


Japan can mine it now ....


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## PhantomPholly (Aug 20, 2008)

Tatsushige said:


> Nope sorry, once a car is 5 years old the road tax on it doubles, you have to have it inspected every year and passed to be used on the road. Most families will sell the car and buy a new one.


Sorry, forgot you were not in the USA... Average U.S. Car Life So, here it is 8 years average (half older, half newer).



> Also Japan has just found a hell of a lot of Rare Earth which means once they start mining it they no longer need to rely on China and I can but EV will really take off ...
> 
> This was in the news Yesterday


Awesome news! And I'll bet that is a big source of national pride for the Japanese (some traditional rivalries there). In any event it will be good for consumers.


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## Tatsushige (Mar 24, 2011)

PhantomPholly said:


> Sorry, forgot you were not in the USA... Average U.S. Car Life So, here it is 8 years average (half older, half newer).
> 
> Awesome news! And I'll bet that is a big source of national pride for the Japanese (some traditional rivalries there). In any event it will be good for consumers.


Not a problem with the car life, a lot forget I am in Japan.

Yes the rare earth find is good for Japan and the USA as both need to buy from China at the moment.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Tatsushige said:


> You need to read again.
> 
> 
> 
> Japan can mine it now ....


Right but is it cost effective? The reason China dominates is because they can produce it cheaply. We have rare earth mines sitting closed in the US because of pricing, not availability.


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## Tatsushige (Mar 24, 2011)

JRP3 said:


> Right but is it cost effective? The reason China dominates is because they can produce it cheaply. We have rare earth mines sitting closed in the US because of pricing, not availability.


In 2010 Japan and china had a spat and china stopped all exports of rare earth to Japan, Japan only got it's rare earths supplies from china. 

china threaten Japan because Japan arrested an illegal fisherman that rammed the JCG near Japanese island that the chinese claim belongs to china, but the UN says are Japanese. 

No matter how much it cost Japan will mine it so it is not held to ransom by the chinese, it is bad enough the US keeps threatening Japan with sanctions when Japan refuses to do what the US wants, so no way will Japan be threat by the chinese also!





 

*On a personal note :* The Japanese Coast Guard should have open fire and sunk the chinese boat and crew alone with it!


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