# [EVDL] Sensors at drive throughs



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

What do they use to tell when a car pulls up to the
drive through order speaker? I thought they were
magnetic sensors in the asphalt. The reason I ask is
the last two times I've gone through the drive through
at the local Burger King they didn't know I was there.
I was thinking maybe some kind of RF sensor listening
for the plug firings but then they would have trouble
sensing diesels as well. Not really earthshaking, but
EV related none the less ;-) The only time I'll go
through a drive through is when I'm driving the EV.
TiM



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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "TiM M" <[email protected]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, October 02, 2007 12:26 AM
Subject: [EVDL] Sensors at drive throughs


> What do they use to tell when a car pulls up to the
> drive through order speaker? I thought they were
> magnetic sensors in the asphalt. The reason I ask is
> the last two times I've gone through the drive through
> at the local Burger King they didn't know I was there.
> I was thinking maybe some kind of RF sensor listening
> for the plug firings but then they would have trouble
> sensing diesels as well. Not really earthshaking, but
> EV related none the less ;-) The only time I'll go
> through a drive through is when I'm driving the EV.
> TiM
>
> Hi EVerybody;

Have wondered HOW the Mc Darnold and Burgler King folks hear ya in an 
EV?They always DO, though. Maybe they have a camera to see you pull up, or 
just assume there is someone there?

Witchcraft?

Bob
>
> ____________________________________________________________________________________
> Boardwalk for $500? In 2007? Ha! Play Monopoly Here and Now (it's updated 
> for today's economy) at Yahoo! Games.
> http://get.games.yahoo.com/proddesc?gamekey=monopolyherenow
>
> _______________________________________________
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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

My impression was that drive-throughs use an intercom to
talk to you, so the people will normally hear the engine 
of the car pulling up in their headset and know someone 
arrived.
They don't hear the EV coming.... 
I wonder: the Prius should have the same issue?

Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
Email: [email protected] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [email protected]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Second Life: www.secondlife.com/?u=3b42cb3f4ae249319edb487991c30acb

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of TiM M
Sent: Monday, October 01, 2007 9:27 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: [EVDL] Sensors at drive throughs

What do they use to tell when a car pulls up to the drive through order speaker? I thought they were magnetic sensors in the asphalt. The reason I ask is the last two times I've gone through the drive through at the local Burger King they didn't know I was there.
I was thinking maybe some kind of RF sensor listening for the plug firings but then they would have trouble sensing diesels as well. Not really earthshaking, but EV related none the less ;-) The only time I'll go through a drive through is when I'm driving the EV.
TiM



____________________________________________________________________________________
Boardwalk for $500? In 2007? Ha! Play Monopoly Here and Now (it's updated for today's economy) at Yahoo! Games.
http://get.games.yahoo.com/proddesc?gamekey=monopolyherenow 

_______________________________________________
For subscription options, see
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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Cor van de Water wrote:
> > My impression was that drive-throughs use an intercom to
> > talk to you, so the people will normally hear the engine
> > of the car pulling up in their headset and know someone
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

[No message]


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

I worked in fast food 6 years ago, and even then they had sensors; the
intercom would automatically turn on when a car pulled up. I think the
sensors are based on magnetic fields, but I don't know any specifics.

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

I just found this info; I'm guessing drive-thru sensors are similar to
traffic light sensors:

http://www.dot.state.sc.us/getting/signals/loopdet.shtml
http://www.dot.state.sc.us/getting/signals/looptips.shtml

-Morgan LaMoore

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Wow. Cool thread.

I should note that Taco Bueno had no trouble detecting my EV last night.
On the other hand, it wouldn't have mattered much, as in addition to
whatever sensor they have there, they also have a pushbutton, which
comes in very handy when I'm on the unicycle.

I always just figured they had some sort of weight sensor. But then,
that's also what I figured the traffic-light loop sensors were, which
clearly is wrong, as Morgan's links suggest. A quick search turned up
this abstract:
http://www.humantransport.org/bicycledriving/library/signals/detection.htm which goes into somewhat more detail, and has specific recommendations for bycicles. Apparently the loops are supposed to be able to detect anything metal of high enough mass.

So...they ought to detect an EV. I would be darn surprised if a fast
food joint was really expecting their drive-through employees to listen
for engine sounds. Almost as surprised as if they were using RF to
detect spark plugs going off ;-)

Hunter



> Morgan LaMoore wrote:
> > I just found this info; I'm guessing drive-thru sensors are similar to
> > traffic light sensors:
> >
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

So I went back to that same Taco Bueno this morning for breakfast on my
unicycle. (It's really the only fast food in unicycle range, or the
range of my current EV, for that matter) This time I looked for the cuts
in the concrete. They looked like very small versions of the simple (not
quadrupole) induction loops. By very small I mean about 1'x3', whereas I
think I read DOT spec was 60' long!

Anyway, according to the article I linked below the small loops should
be able to detect much smaller conductors. In fact, I'm pretty sure it
detected my unicycle; I was standing outside the pickup window (not the
order window...there were loops both places) where I could hear inside,
and when I rolled the wheel on the pavement cuts I could hear beeping
inside. Could have just been a coincidence with a fryer going off or
something, but I did it a few times and I think the guy got annoyed by
it. Next time for a better test I'll ride up to the order window (where
they can't see me) and just roll the wheel around instead of pushing the
button and see if they notice.

Obviously, different restaraunts may have totally different setups. Your
Whr/mi may vary.

Hunter




> Hunter Cook wrote:
> > Wow. Cool thread.
> >
> > I should note that Taco Bueno had no trouble detecting my EV last night.
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Oh no, that is another calculation that has to make to run a vehicle. How 
many taco's does it take to go a mile?

To power a EV from a coal generation plant, the total cost should be use. 
The energy to mine the ore to make the steel, to make the steel plants, to 
make the machines to mine the coal, the delivery of the coal, the building 
of the power plant, the delivery of the energy and then the cost of the 
energy.

I do not use any of that except for the delivery and cost of the energy. A 
lot of people ask me how my EV works. I tell them it runs on solar energy 
and gravity, which is the indirect energy that runs the five hydro dams we 
have here in Great Falls, Montana.

Roland




----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Hunter Cook" <[email protected]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, October 02, 2007 7:10 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Sensors at drive throughs


> So I went back to that same Taco Bueno this morning for breakfast on my
> unicycle. (It's really the only fast food in unicycle range, or the
> range of my current EV, for that matter) This time I looked for the cuts
> in the concrete. They looked like very small versions of the simple (not
> quadrupole) induction loops. By very small I mean about 1'x3', whereas I
> think I read DOT spec was 60' long!
>
> Anyway, according to the article I linked below the small loops should
> be able to detect much smaller conductors. In fact, I'm pretty sure it
> detected my unicycle; I was standing outside the pickup window (not the
> order window...there were loops both places) where I could hear inside,
> and when I rolled the wheel on the pavement cuts I could hear beeping
> inside. Could have just been a coincidence with a fryer going off or
> something, but I did it a few times and I think the guy got annoyed by
> it. Next time for a better test I'll ride up to the order window (where
> they can't see me) and just roll the wheel around instead of pushing the
> button and see if they notice.
>
> Obviously, different restaraunts may have totally different setups. Your
> Whr/mi may vary.
>
> Hunter
>
>
>


> Hunter Cook wrote:
> > > Wow. Cool thread.
> > >
> > > I should note that Taco Bueno had no trouble detecting my EV last night.
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Roland-

I can eat about 2 tacos per mile in the EV. More on the unicycle, less
in my ICE car.

Hope that helps...

Hunter



> Roland Wiench wrote:
> > Oh no, that is another calculation that has to make to run a vehicle. How
> > many taco's does it take to go a mile?
> >
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

I wndoer if you taped a small magnet to your unicucle if it would 
distrub the induction loop in the sensor enough to make a small metal 
mass detectable.
Hell my small two seater car is often not detected at street lights.



> Hunter Cook wrote:
> > Wow. Cool thread.
> >
> > I should note that Taco Bueno had no trouble detecting my EV last
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

People have said that for years. They sell the magnet for motorcycles
to do just that. Most don't work. I thought they were actually a fiber
of light that gets pinched when weight is on the slab. 

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On
Behalf Of GWMobile
Sent: Tuesday, October 02, 2007 12:31
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Cc: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Sensors at drive throughs

I wndoer if you taped a small magnet to your unicucle if it would
distrub the induction loop in the sensor enough to make a small metal
mass detectable.
Hell my small two seater car is often not detected at street lights.



> Hunter Cook wrote:
> > Wow. Cool thread.
> >
> > I should note that Taco Bueno had no trouble detecting my EV last
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Some motorcyclists try this. I believe the consensus is that you need 
very strong magnets.
--
Martin K




> GWMobile wrote:
> > I wndoer if you taped a small magnet to your unicucle if it would
> > distrub the induction loop in the sensor enough to make a small metal
> > mass detectable.
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Dewey, Jody R ATC COMNAVAIRLANT, N422G5G wrote:
> > People have said that for years. They sell the magnet for motorcycles
> > to do just that. Most don't work. I thought they were actually a fiber
> > of light that gets pinched when weight is on the slab.
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

well they could be using a reflective light emitting relay like is used on production lines . however the most likely device is a proximity sensor .
----- Original Message ----- 
From: Lee Hart<mailto:[email protected]> 
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List<mailto:[email protected]> 
Sent: Tuesday, October 02, 2007 12:29 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Sensors at drive throughs




> Dewey, Jody R ATC COMNAVAIRLANT, N422G5G wrote:
> > People have said that for years. They sell the magnet for motorcycles
> > to do just that. Most don't work. I thought they were actually a fiber
> > of light that gets pinched when weight is on the slab.
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

What about methane emissions from your unicycle's power plant after 
refueling at Taco Bell? 8^)

Dave

>From: Hunter Cook <[email protected]>
>Reply-To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <[email protected]>
>To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <[email protected]>
>Subject: Re: [EVDL] Sensors at drive throughs
>Date: Tue, 02 Oct 2007 09:21:00 -0500
>
>Roland-
>
>I can eat about 2 tacos per mile in the EV. More on the unicycle, less
>in my ICE car.
>
>Hope that helps...
>
>Hunter
>
>


> Roland Wiench wrote:
> > > Oh no, that is another calculation that has to make to run a vehicle.
> >How
> > > many taco's does it take to go a mile?
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

They're bad.

On Tue, 2007-10-02 at 23:15 +0000, Dave Davidson wrote:
> What about methane emissions from your unicycle's power plant after 
> refueling at Taco Bell? 8^)
> 
> Dave
> 
> >From: Hunter Cook <[email protected]>
> >Reply-To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <[email protected]>
> >To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <[email protected]>
> >Subject: Re: [EVDL] Sensors at drive throughs
> >Date: Tue, 02 Oct 2007 09:21:00 -0500
> >
> >Roland-
> >
> >I can eat about 2 tacos per mile in the EV. More on the unicycle, less
> >in my ICE car.
> >
> >Hope that helps...
> >
> >Hunter
> >
> >On Tue, 2007-10-02 at 08:03 -0600, Roland Wiench wrote:
> > > Oh no, that is another calculation that has to make to run a vehicle. 
> >How
> > > many taco's does it take to go a mile?
> > >
> > > To power a EV from a coal generation plant, the total cost should be 
> >use.
> > > The energy to mine the ore to make the steel, to make the steel plants, 
> >to
> > > make the machines to mine the coal, the delivery of the coal, the 
> >building
> > > of the power plant, the delivery of the energy and then the cost of the
> > > energy.
> > >
> > > I do not use any of that except for the delivery and cost of the energy. 
> >A
> > > lot of people ask me how my EV works. I tell them it runs on solar 
> >energy
> > > and gravity, which is the indirect energy that runs the five hydro dams 
> >we
> > > have here in Great Falls, Montana.
> > >
> > > Roland
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "Hunter Cook" <[email protected]>
> > > To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
> > > Sent: Tuesday, October 02, 2007 7:10 AM
> > > Subject: Re: [EVDL] Sensors at drive throughs
> > >
> > >
> > > > So I went back to that same Taco Bueno this morning for breakfast on 
> >my
> > > > unicycle. (It's really the only fast food in unicycle range, or the
> > > > range of my current EV, for that matter) This time I looked for the 
> >cuts
> > > > in the concrete. They looked like very small versions of the simple 
> >(not
> > > > quadrupole) induction loops. By very small I mean about 1'x3', whereas 
> >I
> > > > think I read DOT spec was 60' long!
> > > >
> > > > Anyway, according to the article I linked below the small loops should
> > > > be able to detect much smaller conductors. In fact, I'm pretty sure it
> > > > detected my unicycle; I was standing outside the pickup window (not 
> >the
> > > > order window...there were loops both places) where I could hear 
> >inside,
> > > > and when I rolled the wheel on the pavement cuts I could hear beeping
> > > > inside. Could have just been a coincidence with a fryer going off or
> > > > something, but I did it a few times and I think the guy got annoyed by
> > > > it. Next time for a better test I'll ride up to the order window 
> >(where
> > > > they can't see me) and just roll the wheel around instead of pushing 
> >the
> > > > button and see if they notice.
> > > >
> > > > Obviously, different restaraunts may have totally different setups. 
> >Your
> > > > Whr/mi may vary.
> > > >
> > > > Hunter
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > On Tue, 2007-10-02 at 05:57 -0500, Hunter Cook wrote:
> > > > > Wow. Cool thread.
> > > > >
> > > > > I should note that Taco Bueno had no trouble detecting my EV last 
> >night.
> > > > > On the other hand, it wouldn't have mattered much, as in addition to
> > > > > whatever sensor they have there, they also have a pushbutton, which
> > > > > comes in very handy when I'm on the unicycle.
> > > > >
> > > > > I always just figured they had some sort of weight sensor. But then,
> > > > > that's also what I figured the traffic-light loop sensors were, 
> >which
> > > > > clearly is wrong, as Morgan's links suggest. A quick search turned 
> >up
> > > > > this abstract:
> > > > > 
> >http://www.humantransport.org/bicycledriving/library/signals/detection.htm
> > > > > which goes into somewhat more detail, and has specific 
> >recommendations
> > > > > for bycicles. Apparently the loops are supposed to be able to detect
> > > > > anything metal of high enough mass.
> > > > >
> > > > > So...they ought to detect an EV. I would be darn surprised if a fast
> > > > > food joint was really expecting their drive-through employees to 
> >listen
> > > > > for engine sounds. Almost as surprised as if they were using RF to
> > > > > detect spark plugs going off ;-)
> > > > >
> > > > > Hunter
> > > > >
> > > > > On Tue, 2007-10-02 at 04:24 -0500, Morgan LaMoore wrote:
> > > > > > I just found this info; I'm guessing drive-thru sensors are 
> >similar to
> > > > > > traffic light sensors:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > http://www.dot.state.sc.us/getting/signals/loopdet.shtml
> > > > > > http://www.dot.state.sc.us/getting/signals/looptips.shtml
> > > > > >
> > > > > > -Morgan LaMoore
> > > > > >
> > > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > > For subscription options, see
> > > > > > http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
> > > > >
> > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > For subscription options, see
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> > > >
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > For subscription options, see
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> > > >
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
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> >
> >_______________________________________________
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> 
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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Speaking of bad emissions ( and very fun threads) , try this science 
question my seventh grade daughter got as tonight's homework; "How 
fast is electricity?" I told her to say that for AC average is 0 mph 
and to let me know if she gets marked down. The next question was "How 
fast is sound?" My answer...Mach 1.


> Hunter Cook wrote:
> 
> > They're bad.
> >
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

I remember a physics problem I had where I had to calculate how long
it took an electron to travel from a wall socket to a lightbulb in a
lamp. The distance was 2m. I don't remember what the time was but to
say the average speed of AC is 0mph isn't exactly correct. It is,
however, quite slow, IIRC.

David Nelson

On 10/2/07, Bruce Williford <[email protected]> wrote:
> Speaking of bad emissions ( and very fun threads) , try this science
> question my seventh grade daughter got as tonight's homework; "How
> fast is electricity?" I told her to say that for AC average is 0 mph
> and to let me know if she gets marked down. The next question was "How
> fast is sound?" My answer...Mach 1.
>


> Hunter Cook wrote:
> >
> > > They're bad.
> > >
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

I don't know about other drive-thrus, but the BK
in question doesn't have a sound sensor or they'd hear
me yelling. The loops in the ground sense the metal of
the vehicle. As I'm driving a '61 pickup truck I think
you'd be hard pressed to find a vehicle with more
metal in it ;-) I don't have any problems with stop
lights sensing my presence either.
I do have occasional problems with pedestrians
hearing me in parking lots. I was planning on the
speaker behind the grill with the Jetson's car sound.
I like the idea of an assortment of sounds to playback
as the situation may warrant.

TiM



____________________________________________________________________________________
Boardwalk for $500? In 2007? Ha! Play Monopoly Here and Now (it's updated for today's economy) at Yahoo! Games.
http://get.games.yahoo.com/proddesc?gamekey=monopolyherenow 

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

How about the sound of screeching tires for those pedestrians. You
might need a mop to clean up, however. 

> I do have occasional problems with pedestrians
> hearing me in parking lots. I was planning on the
> speaker behind the grill with the Jetson's car sound.
> I like the idea of an assortment of sounds to playback
> as the situation may warrant.
>
> TiM

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For subscription options, see
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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Even in DC there is an interesting question of how fast individual 
electrons travel in a conductor with current flow. Actually the answer 
is quite slow even though the transmission speed is quite high. It's 
like a tube filled with marbles, push an extra one in and immediately 
one falls out the other side even though it could take any amount of 
time for that specific new marble to make it out the other side.

Danny

David Nelson wrote:

>I remember a physics problem I had where I had to calculate how long
>it took an electron to travel from a wall socket to a lightbulb in a
>lamp. The distance was 2m. I don't remember what the time was but to
>say the average speed of AC is 0mph isn't exactly correct. It is,
>however, quite slow, IIRC.
>
>David Nelson
>
>On 10/2/07, Bruce Williford <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
>
>>Speaking of bad emissions ( and very fun threads) , try this science
>>question my seventh grade daughter got as tonight's homework; "How
>>fast is electricity?" I told her to say that for AC average is 0 mph
>>and to let me know if she gets marked down. The next question was "How
>>fast is sound?" My answer...Mach 1.
>>


> Hunter Cook wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >>
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Yes, so normally they hear an engine rumbling when
the intercom turns on because a car pulled up.
If you arrive in your EV, they hear nothing, may
think it is a fluke in the system and cancel the
intercom if you are not yelling in time... 


Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
Email: [email protected] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [email protected]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Second Life: www.secondlife.com/?u=3b42cb3f4ae249319edb487991c30acb

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Morgan LaMoore
Sent: Tuesday, October 02, 2007 2:23 AM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Sensors at drive throughs

I worked in fast food 6 years ago, and even then they had sensors; the intercom would automatically turn on when a car pulled up. I think the sensors are based on magnetic fields, but I don't know any specifics.

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> David Nelson wrote:
> > TiM wrote:
> >> I like the idea of an assortment of sounds to playback as the
> >> situation may warrant.
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

I heard that silliness today on the radio... as if hybrids are inherently
more silent. (They are still an ICE.) Simply pull off the muffler and run a
straight pipe. (They are made silent to propagate the "electric" selling
hype. <g>)

OK... they have a smaller engine. If that were an indication, there would
also be problems with MCs.

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "David Nelson" <[email protected]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, October 02, 2007 10:04 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Sensors at drive throughs


> How about the sound of screeching tires for those pedestrians. You
> might need a mop to clean up, however. 
>
> > I do have occasional problems with pedestrians
> > hearing me in parking lots. I was planning on the
> > speaker behind the grill with the Jetson's car sound.
> > I like the idea of an assortment of sounds to playback
> > as the situation may warrant.
> >
> > TiM

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