# I bought a BMW 530e hybrid battery pack - Now What?



## gregski (Sep 6, 2011)

Why did I buy this *Electrical Energy Storage System SP06* battery pack from a 2018 BMW 5 Series G30 aka *530e* and not some other?

Three reasons:​
price, I only paid $900 dollars for this battery and I have yet to see one go for less than twice that
proximity, I drove and picked it up
power, this battery provides 350 volts, what I call full voltage to operate my motor

This is a companion thread to my *I bought a Tesla Model S Gen 2 Charger - Now What?* and my YouTube Channel *Good Enuff Garage*

*







*

I don't know much about hybrid or electric car batteries, but what I know I hope to share. If I had to categorize them I would split them into three groups:


*1. 100% electric car batteries - in order of appearance*
Nissan Leaf (Production: 2010–present)
Renault Zoe (Production: 2012–present Market: Europe only)
Renault Fluence Z.E. (limited numbers in limited markets and failed)
Tesla Model S (Production: 2012–present)
BMW i3 (Production: 2013–present)
Tesla Model X (Production: 2015–present)
Tesla Model 3 (Production: 2017–present)
Tesla Model Y (Production: 2020–present)
*2. Plug in hybrid car batteries (full 350ish voltage)*
Chevy Volt (Production: 2010–2019)
BMW G11 740e (Production: 2016–present)
*BMW G30 530e (Production: 2017–present)*
BMW X5
*3. Hybrid car batteries (lower voltage)*
Toyota Prius (Production: 2012–present)
BMW F30 330e (Production: 2015–present)
BMW Mini F60 Countryman (Production: 2017-present)


If you know of any other popular models which lend themselves to EV Conversions please post them below or message me and I will add them to the list above.








*HELPFUL RESOURCES:*

Let me start off by saying how much I appreciate the folks on this *Info on BMW hybrid battery packs?* thread on the *OpenInverter.org* forum for doing all the heavy lifting for us to make this used BMW 530e battery pack a possibility in our EV Conversions.


*Experimental Engineering* *BMW Series 5 Hybrid Battery Pack Teardown*
*celeron55 **opening bmw x5 hybrid battery - evprevia2 part 3*


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## gregski (Sep 6, 2011)

this is what the pics for that eBay auction looked like, note they would not even pull the battery until I paid for it ahead of time, that was a risk I was willing to take


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## gregski (Sep 6, 2011)

I told the seller I was miles away and would not drive out there until they showed me pics of it off the car, which they did, and technically they accepted my offer of $700 but since I asked for the orange high voltage battery cables, the price went back up to $900, oh well, I was still fine with that


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## gregski (Sep 6, 2011)

sprinkled in a little charm and they went back and got some pig tails for me, always get your pig tails folks, ha ha


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

gregski said:


> I don't know much about hybrid or electric car batteries, but what I know I hope to share. If I had to categorize them I would split them into three groups:
> 
> 
> *1. 100% electric car batteries*
> ...


Those three categories make sense to me, but to be useful I think it would help to understand how they are different:

Battery-Electric
high energy density required due to very large energy capacity requirement
moderate power required relative to battery size (moderate power density)
all modern examples are lithium-ion
most commonly used in DIY conversions have been the Tesla Model S and Nissan Leaf, mostly due to availability

Plug-in Hybrid
enough energy capacity required for tens of kilometres of driving - typically in the range of 8 to 20 kWh
high power density required due to need to deliver high power from compact battery
pack voltage comparable to battery-electric vehicles (300 V or more, most commonly 360 V)
all are lithium-ion
most commonly used in DIYElectricCar projects are the Chevrolet Volt (most available in salvage) and Chrysler Pacifica Hybrid (was available as new modules from conversion equipment distributors)

Non-plug-in Hybrid
low energy capacity required (typically on the order of one kilowatt-hour)
high cycling frequency (not just once per trip or day)
packs typically somewhat lower voltage than battery-electric vehicles (288 V in most Toyota hybrids) but can be as high as battery-electric models (particularly when lithium-ion)
many are still nickel-metal hydride (NiMH) for reliability under hybrid conditions
due to low capacity per pack and complexity of combining packs, generally not useful for battery-electric vehicle conversions




gregski said:


> If you know of any other popular models please post them below or message me and I will add them to the list above.


I keep a spreadsheet of EV and hybrid batteries for which I found interesting information, but I don't think there's much point in just listing all common EVs and hybrid vehicles. Any EV has a battery, so the databases of EVs (all of which contain battery information) can be useful:

Electric Vehicle Database
EVcompare.io
EVGLOBE


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## gregski (Sep 6, 2011)

brian_ said:


> I keep a spreadsheet of EV and hybrid batteries for which I found interesting information, but I don't think there's much point in just listing all common EVs and hybrid vehicles. Any EV has a battery, so the databases of EVs (all of which contain battery information) can be useful:


I changed my request to be more specific: "If you know of any other popular models *which lend themselves to EV Conversions* please post them below or message me and I will add them to the list above."

I am very cautious of words like All or Every ha ha usually if after a party I say let's All clean up before we leave, nobody does anything, you know what I mean, but if I am specific and say Brian can you give me a hand before you leave so we can clean this place up, you pet stuff will get done.

So when it comes to electric vehicles and I know you follow them 100x closer than I do, but what I have observed is that there is a ton of vapor wear still and we hear how there are dozens and dozens if not hundreds of different Makes and Models of electric cars, and then you go to get one and your choices are Tesla, Leaf, and BMW, everything else is the "Click here to reserve your *____*" fill in the blank. And don't get me started about how the Chevy Volt goes by 7 different names: Buick Velite 5, Holden Volt, Opel Ampera, Vauxhall Ampera yet it is the same rig, so that counts as one car.

case in point Volkswagen


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

gregski said:


> I changed my request to be more specific: "If you know of any other popular models *which lend themselves to EV Conversions* please post them below or message me and I will add them to the list above."


That's reasonable, but essentially all battery-electric and plug-in hybrid batteries are suitable for at least some conversions, so it's clear what wouldn't make the list. One of the worst possible EV donors to use, from a size and proportions of the modules point of view, is the Tesla Model 3 / Model Y... and even that's being used (including by one project in this forum).



gregski said:


> I am very cautious of words like All or Every...


That prudent, but is there even a single example of a modern production EV that doesn't have a lithium-ion battery?



gregski said:


> So when it comes to electric vehicles and I know you follow them 100x closer than I do, but what I have observed is that there is a ton of vapor wear still and we hear how there are dozens and dozens if not hundreds of different Makes and Models of electric cars, and then you go to get one and your choices are Tesla, Leaf, and BMW, everything else is the "Click here to reserve your *____*" fill in the blank.


There are lots of not-in-production promises, but it's really not that bad. For instance, there are real, in production, seen-on-the-road EVs from Chevrolet, Ford, Jaguar, Volvo, Audi, and Porsche, in addition to Tesla, Nissan (Leaf), and BMW.



gregski said:


> And don't get me started about how the Chevy Volt goes by 7 different names: Buick Velite 5, Holden Volt, Opel Ampera, Vauxhall Ampera yet it is the same rig, so that counts as one car.
> 
> case in point Volkswagen...


Yes, as always the same car shows up under different model names and brands. That's not unique to EVs or hybrids. A list will only help with that if it groups those models together. And the Cadillac ELR was another Volt variant.


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## gregski (Sep 6, 2011)

so I picked this thing up in my wife's 2010 Honda Pilot (we can use that for a time and space continuum reference) and my first reaction was, dang this thing is much smaller than I thunk


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## gregski (Sep 6, 2011)

I must have listened to Battery by Metallica 6 dozen times on the drive back from Los Angeles to Sacramento, but 8 short hours later that baby was in the *Good Enuff Garage*

thank you son and daughter (both "_dad do we have to do this_" teenagers") for helping me ease it out of mom's car later that night and on to that Cardboard Freight moving dolly, *Fun Level: 2*


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## gregski (Sep 6, 2011)

So let me give you an example of what I mean by *Full Voltage* batteries using mine as an example, and by mine I mean the *BMW 530e* plug in hybrid beauty

but first please note we are dealing with a German product here, so things may make more sense if you are doing a head stand, if you know what I mean cause...

them Germans took freedoms and started calling voltage "U", probably since that letter was largely unused and so couldn't be confused with anything else. They also came up with etymology: *U* is for* Unterschied*, which is German and means "difference"; very fitting since voltage is obviously the same as potential difference... um obviously, ha ha

they also like to use commas instead of dots or decimals, cause why not? So *351,36* is *351.36* voltuators (hey if they can make words up, so can we)

*Electrical Energy Storage System SP06*


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## gregski (Sep 6, 2011)

ok now let's do a *Stare and Compare* to a lower voltage aka what I would consider a not a Full Voltage battery pack, we will use the *BMW 330e* as an example below

so now being semi fluent in made up German we can decipher that this one is only *292.8* *Unterschied

Electrical Energy Storage System SP09*


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## gregski (Sep 6, 2011)

and if we Zoom Out and see the *BMW 330e* hybrid battery pack in all it's glory we can see that indeed it does appear to be a bit physically smaller

I actually prefer this form factor and wish my BMW 530e came in this general shape, this thing would bolt up perfectly in the back of my 60/70s Chevy truck or a 60s muscle car like a Mustang


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## gregski (Sep 6, 2011)

the image below should help us better understand the difference between the two battery packs mentioned above

this is what is inside my *BMW 530e* plug in hybrid battery pack


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## gregski (Sep 6, 2011)

*CAUTION: Math Ahead*

see how that appears to be what looks like six regular car batteries inside that odd shaped box, so if we take 351.36 aka the total voltage of the *BMW 530e* battery pack and divide it by 6 the number of those gray boxes above assuming they are all the same voltage which they should be we get 58.56 volts per gray box, ok that makes sense

so what if we took 292.8 the voltage of the *BMW 330e* battery pack and divided it by 58.56 what would we get, well we get 5, as in 5 gray boxes live inside the smaller BMW 330e battery pack so they are the exact same things just one less, interesting, let's file that under things that make you go hmmmm ?!?!?!


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## gregski (Sep 6, 2011)

and what do you know...

The *BMW 330e* hybrid "semi full voltage" battery pack diagram


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## gregski (Sep 6, 2011)

now I do realize we are beginning to beat a dead horse to death, but let's just list out another *BMW* model the *740e* hybrid battery for completeness

lookie here, does it look familiar? now I am no BMW fanboy nor expert, but there we have it another good source for these types of "Full Voltage" battery packs


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

It's not my list, but I see no point in using terms like "full voltage" for 351 V and "semi full voltage" for 292 V... just list the voltage. Are you going to rename all of those BMW batteries, once you realize that a 720 V battery is available (and used in the Porsche Taycan), so 720 V must really be "full voltage", the 351 V battery must be "half full voltage", and 292 V is "nearly half full voltage"?  While the 96S configuration (about 360 V nominal) is very common, and matches well with chargers that were limited to about 400 V, there's nothing magical about that voltage which makes it "full" and anything less "not full".


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

The same modules will be found in varying number in different packs, especially by the same manufacturer. The Tesla packs with 18650 cells came in 14-module and 16-module sizes, using the same size of modules. There is one standardized size ("VDA 355") of pouch-cell module which has now been used by more than one manufacturer. Most DIY builders don't use the entire pack (because no OEM pack fits well in their car), so a good resource would be a list of modules, including which vehicles use those modules and how many they use.


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

gregski said:


> now I do realize we are beginning to beat a dead horse to death, but let's just list out another *BMW* model the *740e* hybrid battery for completeness
> 
> lookie here, does it look familiar?


According to online articles, the 7-series plug-in hybrids have the same battery capacity (and same transmission with parallel hybrid motor) as the 5-series, so it would be the same pack or at least the same six modules. Before the 2020 model this was the 9.2 kWh battery, and 12.0 kWh since 2020.


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

gregski said:


> ...*3. Hybrid car batteries (lower voltage)*
> Toyota Prius (Production: 2012–present)
> BMW 330e
> 
> ...





gregski said:


> I changed my request to be more specific: "If you know of any other popular models *which lend themselves to EV Conversions* please post them below or message me and I will add them to the list above."
> 
> I am very cautious of words like All or Every ha ha...


If the list is going to contain nothing but the model name (and perhaps year), and everything in it is supposed to be useful in EV conversions, then the Prius doesn't belong there - only a Prius Prime has a battery with enough capacity to be of any use in anything larger than a go-kart. That is, not all Prius batteries are useful.  In fact, all Toyota hybrids with "Prime" in their name (including the RAV4) are plug-ins with a useful size of battery, while no non-plug-in Toyota/Lexus hybrid has a battery which is large enough to be useful.

The difference in voltage between 360 V and 290 V is much less important than the difference in energy capacity between the 8 kWh (or more) of a plug-in hybrid and the 2 kWh (or less) of a non-plug in hybrid.


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

gregski said:


> see how that appears to be what looks like six regular car batteries inside that odd shaped box, so if we take 351.36 aka the total voltage of the *BMW 530e* battery pack and divide it by 6 the number of those gray boxes above assuming they are all the same voltage which they should be we get 58.56 volts per gray box, ok that makes sense
> 
> so what if we took 292.8 the voltage of the *BMW 330e* battery pack and divided it by 58.56 what would we get, well we get 5, as in 5 gray boxes live inside the smaller BMW 330e battery pack so they are the exact same things just one less, interesting, let's file that under things that make you go hmmmm ?!?!?!


The modules are apparently internally configured as 16 pouch cells (26 Ah each) in series, with the usual voltage of non-LFP lithium-ion cells.


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

gregski said:


> and if we Zoom Out and see the *BMW 330e* hybrid battery pack in all it's glory we can see that indeed it does appear to be a bit physically smaller
> 
> I actually prefer this form factor and wish my BMW 530e came in this general shape, this thing would bolt up perfectly in the back of my 60/70s Chevy truck or a 60s muscle car like a Mustang


If you like the 330e pack because it seems flatter (although both packs are two modules high in one part, so they're very similar) you should like the packs from the "4xe" plug-in hybrid variants of the Jeep Wrangler and other coming Stellantis models - the Wrangler's pack is a roughly rectangular block one layer of modules thick, with a capacity of 17.3 kWh (about 15 kWh usable). The 9.2 kWh (~8 kWh usable) 530e pack is barely usable in a pickup or Mustang; doubling that will still only provide a range of perhaps 100 km (60 miles) in ideal conditions but that would be more practical.


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## remy_martian (Feb 4, 2019)

I'm now confused. 

26Ah? 

How many of these battery packs are you planning on using, cuz 26Ah is a golf cart? You can run at 12.5HP for an hour.

Lunch boxes are volumetric and there's no free lunch of cells/modules that fits in the lunchbox needed by an electric pickup truck.

My back of the envelope calc sez u need FOUR of these batpacks, Joker.


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## gregski (Sep 6, 2011)

brian_ said:


> If you like the 330e pack because it seems flatter (although both packs are two modules high in one part, so they're very similar) you should like the packs from the "4xe" plug-in hybrid variants of the Jeep Wrangler and other coming Stellantis models - the Wrangler's pack is a roughly rectangular block one layer of modules thick, with a capacity of 17.3 kWh (about 15 kWh usable). The 9.2 kWh (~8 kWh usable) 530e pack is barely usable in a pickup or Mustang; doubling that will still only provide a range of perhaps 100 km (60 miles) in ideal conditions but that would be more practical.


hey Brian you know I appreciate you but you are proving my point, allow me to explain

we are dealing with the hear and now, translation we source electric car parts from electric cars that have been arround for a decade, hence the Nissan Leaf and the Tesla *__* fill in the blank as we need to give distracted soccer moms and tennagers time to wreck them while texting, so you offering a Jeep that is about to come out does not help me/us. Not only do the parts have to be available, but they have to be affordable, I aint paying premium bucks for current year or latest and greatest tech.

Perpective Adjustment: keep in mine who you are talking to, and I kid you not when I say this my daily driver currently is a 1954 yes you read that correctly Chevy truck, ha ha, can you say The Flinstones


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## gregski (Sep 6, 2011)

remy_martian said:


> I'm now confused.
> 
> 26Ah?
> 
> ...


first I am dying from laughing at your last line, that was hillarium !

Two Things:

1. You are correct amigo.​2. Baby steps​


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

gregski said:


> hey Brian you know I appreciate you but you are proving my point, allow me to explain
> 
> we are dealing with the hear and now, translation we source electric car parts from electric cars that have been arround for a decade, hence the Nissan Leaf and the Tesla *__* fill in the blank as we need to give distracted soccer moms and tennagers time to wreck them while texting, so you offering a Jeep that is about to come out does not help me/us. Not only do the parts have to be available, but they have to be affordable, I aint paying premium bucks for current year or latest and greatest tech.


The Chevrolet Spark and Mitsubishi i-MiEV are from so long ago that they have gone into and out of production, and the salvage stock has probably already been used up... and they're not Nissan or Tesla.

Limited production runs of EV versions of the Ford Focus, VW Golf, Fiat 500, and who knows what else have come and gone, with their batteries being prime salvage material... and none of those are Nissan are Tesla.

The Chevrolet Volt has been a popular source of modules for projects here, it's even in your list... and it's not Nissan or Tesla.

The Chevrolet Bolt has been in production for half a decade, and there are two running projects in this forum using their batteries (including one using everything else as well)... and it's not Nissan or Tesla.

Browse YouTube and you can find teardown videos of components salvaged from a Tesla Model S Plaid, which is so new that most people haven't seen one yet. The day after the first of any model is delivered to a customer, it is potentially available in salvage. My guess is that someone who is experienced in buying salvage parts can find a Jeep 4xe battery today, since people have been driving - and undoubtedly crashing - them for months.

A decade-old salvaged EV battery probably isn't worth using, as it has reached roughly the end of its life already. Perhaps target five years old...


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## remy_martian (Feb 4, 2019)

With aircraft, you need an endorsement for operating high horsepower engines. Not with cars. Heck, turn signal usage seems optional.

Tesla keeps upping the horsepower of sedans as a status symbol, and as long as bespectacled, short-weened accountants keep buying them, salvage yards will be full of low mileage, high output, drive solutions. My Model X got written off at 8,000 miles...


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## Electric Land Cruiser (Dec 30, 2020)

remy_martian said:


> I'm now confused.
> 
> 26Ah?
> 
> ...


Seriously you are joking right??


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## remy_martian (Feb 4, 2019)

Not about the amount of battery. Why do you think I'm joking?


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## gregski (Sep 6, 2011)

*In This Post We Ax The Question What Do We Call What?*

one of the first things I noticed when battery shopping is all the different things people call things ie the naming conventions, I heard and saw, batteries, battery packs, cells, modules, battery cells, battery modules, cell packs, groups, bricks etc.

It made me think of that old Windows Vista Edition matrix (gosh I wish I could find it) but it went something like this


Windows Vista
Windows Vista Basic
Windows Vista Home
Windows Vista Home Basic Pro
Windows Vista Business
Windows Vista Home Business
Windows Vista Pro
Windows Vista Ultimate BasicWindows Vista Enterprise
Windows Vista Premium
Windows Vista Pro Business
Windows Vista Ultimate Plus
Windows Vista Home Plus
Windows Vista Pro Plus Enterprise Basic
Windows Vista Plus Pro
etc...


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## gregski (Sep 6, 2011)

*In This Post We Answer The Question What Do We Call What?*

anyway here's what I am going to call things and why it makes sense to me

the largest unit of measurement I need is the *Battery Pack*, this is the biggest metal box you can pull off of your donor vehicle, so yeah in terms of a Nissan Leaf think this:










*Top Tip:* if you can't pick it up, you have a *Battery Pack*, ha ha


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## gregski (Sep 6, 2011)

so yeah in my case it's this (hope to replace this pic with one you haven't seen yet soon)

*BMW 530e* plug in hybrid *Battery Pack*


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## gregski (Sep 6, 2011)

the next unit of measurement is the *Cell Module*, the Battery Pack contains Cell Modules

continuing on with our Nissan Leaf example, inside it's Battery Pack it has 48 silver sardine can looking metal Cell Modules 










this is a single Nissan Leaf cell module:










it can be lifted by a human so it can't be a Battery Pack, ha ha


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## gregski (Sep 6, 2011)

i stole this pic off the web somewhere's but it shows the *Cell Modules* inside of a *BMW 530e* Battery Pack like mine (I hope to tear mine down soon, crappy video comming soon)

pic borrowed from: Experimental Engineering *BMW Series 5 Hybrid Battery Pack Teardown*


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## gregski (Sep 6, 2011)

and finally our last and smallest unit of measurement is the *Battery Cell *a bunch of them live inside Cell Modules

we aint going to tear things down to this level but this is just to demonstrate what they look like in the Nissan Leaf


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## gregski (Sep 6, 2011)

Oh sure now I find the slide with all the tiers


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## gregski (Sep 6, 2011)

and here is what 16 *Battery Cells* look like inside a single *BMW 530e* Cell Module

pic borrowed from: Experimental Engineering *BMW Series 5 Hybrid Battery Pack Teardown*


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## Electric Land Cruiser (Dec 30, 2020)

remy_martian said:


> Not about the amount of battery. Why do you think I'm joking?


Because you don't know Watt's Law? 26Ah is only one of the measurements. A golf cart is 26Ah and the BMW is 26Ah.

The golf cart is 36 volts and the BMW is 360! So that means the BMW pack has 10x the energy of your golf cart comparison. Over 9kwh. Plenty for a diy conversion!

So surely you must be joking.


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## gregski (Sep 6, 2011)

Wow!


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## remy_martian (Feb 4, 2019)

Electric Land Cruiser said:


> Because you don't know Watt's Law? 26Ah is only one of the measurements. A golf cart is 26Ah and the BMW is 26Ah.
> 
> The golf cart is 36 volts and the BMW is 360! So that means the BMW pack has 10x the energy of your golf cart comparison. Over 9kwh. Plenty for a diy conversion!
> 
> So surely you must be joking.


360V at 26Ah, at 12.5HP for an hour, in a Chevy C10 pickup truck, the entire CONTEXT of my posting, is a golf cart conversion, not a pickup truck conversion, in terms of performance.

Pay attention.

Meanwhile, I'm butthurt that "batpack" didn't make it into the standard terminology, since, for the C10, the BMW battery pack no longer is one, cuz our Joker will need four or so of them.


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## remy_martian (Feb 4, 2019)

gregski said:


> Wow!
> 
> View attachment 125350


les yikes! ("holy crap*", if recollection of my high school French is correct)

300% price premium over Tesla modules, just to have Beemer snobbery in your Chevy.

Worth

Every

Penny

😂

*Edit: it's probably more like "sacre merde" now that I think about it


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

gregski said:


> the next unit of measurement is the *Cell Module*, the Battery Pack contains Cell Modules
> 
> continuing on with our Nissan Leaf example, inside it's Battery Pack it has 48 silver sardine can looking metal Cell Modules...


There's no point in the word "cell" in "cell module", and that would not be the normal terminology in the industry; if you want to be more specific than just "module" (because there are all sorts of things called modules), that would be "battery module" (because it's a module within a battery).


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## remy_martian (Feb 4, 2019)

Before I get accused of violating Wattage's Law:

9.3kWh in a batpak for $6k
90kWh in a Tesla pack for $18k


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## Electric Land Cruiser (Dec 30, 2020)

remy_martian said:


> 360V at 26Ah, at 12.5HP for an hour, in a Chevy C10 pickup truck, the entire CONTEXT of my posting, is a golf cart conversion, not a pickup truck conversion, in terms of performance.
> 
> Pay attention.
> 
> Meanwhile, I'm butthurt that "batpack" didn't make it into the standard terminology, since, for the C10, the BMW battery pack no longer is one, cuz our Joker will need four or so of them.


That's a strange metric to measure a vehicle by, one hour at 12.5hp. interesting because the BMW pack is probably capable of 300kw output. Sure it won't last an hour but it will go down the road just fine!


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## remy_martian (Feb 4, 2019)

brian_ said:


> There's no point in the word "cell" in "cell module", and that would not be the normal terminology in the industry; if you want to be more specific than just "module" (because there are all sorts of things called modules), that would be "battery module" (because it's a module within a battery).


And to take it one step further in the terminology standardization heirarchy, the magic stuff inside a cell shall be further, heretofore, referred to as cellulite.


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## Electric Land Cruiser (Dec 30, 2020)

remy_martian said:


> Before I get accused of violating Wattage's Law:
> 
> 9.3kWh in a batpak for $6k
> 90kWh in a Tesla pack for $18k


OP paid $900. $100 per kWh. Try to keep up


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## remy_martian (Feb 4, 2019)

Electric Land Cruiser said:


> That's a strange metric to measure a vehicle by, one hour at 12.5hp. interesting because the BMW pack is probably capable of 300kw output. Sure it won't last an hour but it will go down the road just fine!


Umm, no...that's a >30C discharge rate

If you measure your converted vehicle speed in furlongs per fortnite, as would be the case here, you're doing it wrong.


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

gregski said:


> Wow!
> 
> View attachment 125350


Yes, "wow", because that's horribly expensive for 9 kWh of used battery. An entire 60 kWh Chevrolet Bolt battery (yes, the ones that have a 0.01% chance of burning up due to a defect) costs $13K USD, brand new from a dealer.


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## remy_martian (Feb 4, 2019)

Electric Land Cruiser said:


> OP paid $900. $100 per kWh. Try to keep up


'twas but a mere down payment

H3 n33ds thr33 more of '3m


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## remy_martian (Feb 4, 2019)

^ and that's for a lameass 50HP for an hour


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

Electric Land Cruiser said:


> That's a strange metric to measure a vehicle by, one hour at 12.5hp.


It actually made perfect sense to me to use the 1C discharge rate, since it corresponds to an obvious and easy-to-understand duration, and is a reasonable average consumption while driving.



Electric Land Cruiser said:


> interesting because the BMW pack is probably capable of 300kw output. Sure it won't last an hour but it will go down the road just fine!


I suspect that there is little chance that the BMW hybrid pack which is designed to drive an 83 kW motor could reliably produce 300 kW for any useful duration. It would be exhausted in less than 2 minutes (even if it could achieve rated energy capacity at 32C discharge rate), if it operated for that long without failing or just blowing a fuse at 840 amps.


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## Electric Land Cruiser (Dec 30, 2020)

remy_martian said:


> Umm, no...that's a >30C discharge rate
> 
> If you measure your converted vehicle speed in furlongs per fortnite, as would be the case here, you're doing it wrong.


The BMW provides 160kw of assist in a stock form. OEMs underrate their systems for longevity. So I stick by my 300kw statement.

Those of us that have actually started on our conversations just have a little different perspective than those of us who just post on the internet about what they would do. What can I say?


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## remy_martian (Feb 4, 2019)

A cap dump from the inverter for a few milliseconds is marketing, not engineering


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

Electric Land Cruiser said:


> The BMW provides 160kw of assist in a stock form. OEMs underrate their systems for longevity. So I stick by my 300kw statement.
> 
> Those of us that have actually started on our conversations just have a little different perspective than those of us who just post on the internet about what they would do. What can I say?


In a 530e? Perhaps you misread the spec for total output of the engine and electric motor (of another model) as being the electric motor by itself.
Tested: 2021 BMW 530e Gains an Extra Hybrid Boost


> *POWERTRAIN*
> turbocharged and intercooled DOHC 16-valve 2.0-liter inline-4, 181 hp, 258 lb-ft; permanent-magnet synchronous AC motor, 107 hp, 195 lb-ft; combined output, 288 hp, 310 lb-ft; 9.1-kWh lithium-ion battery pack


That's 107 hp or 79 kW; I found the 83 kW spec in another BMW model (I think the 7-series). BMW uses the ZF 8HP transmission for their hybrids - the last information I saw from ZF said that the highest hybrid motor power available in that series was 100 kW, and the normal plug-in hybrid version went up to 90 kW. 300 kW is implausible.


----------



## Electric Land Cruiser (Dec 30, 2020)

brian_ said:


> In a 530e? Perhaps you misread the spec for total output of the engine and electric motor (of another model) as being the electric motor by itself.
> Tested: 2021 BMW 530e Gains an Extra Hybrid Boost
> 
> That's 107 hp or 79 kW; I found the 83 kW spec in another BMW model (I think the 7-series). BMW uses the ZF 8HP transmission for their hybrids - the last information I saw from ZF said that the highest hybrid motor power available in that series was 100 kW, and the normal plug-in hybrid version went up to 90 kW. 300 kW is implausible.


It has a boost mode over and above the normal electric assist.

"Floor the 530e's accelerator—you'll notice a little click in the last few millimeters of travel when you hit the kickdown switch—and the battery sends a burst of energy to the electric motor that adds 40 horsepower for up to 10 seconds at a time. Briefly back off the go pedal, and XtraBoost is ready to go again."


----------



## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

Electric Land Cruiser said:


> It has a boost mode over and above the normal electric assist.
> 
> "Floor the 530e's accelerator—you'll notice a little click in the last few millimeters of travel when you hit the kickdown switch—and the battery sends a burst of energy to the electric motor that adds 40 horsepower for up to 10 seconds at a time. Briefly back off the go pedal, and XtraBoost is ready to go again."


That likely just means using power from the battery which would normally not be allowed, rather than running the motor beyond its rating. Even if you generously assume running beyond the motor rating (which is nonsensical for a production vehicle), 107 hp + 40 hp is 147 hp, or 110 kW... not 160 kW.


----------



## Electric Land Cruiser (Dec 30, 2020)

brian_ said:


> That likely just means using power from the battery which would normally not be allowed, rather than running the motor beyond its rating. Even if you generously assume running beyond the motor rating (which is nonsensical for a production vehicle), 107 hp + 40 hp is 147 hp, or 110 kW... not 160 kW.


Yes, obviously we are talking about the power the battery can provide. I must have been looking at specs for a different BMW as the article I was reading was 113kw electric assist plus 60hp boost. Possibly the brand new BMW. Either way plenty to get your DIY project up and running and a bargain at $900.


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## remy_martian (Feb 4, 2019)

So, the conclusion here is that 10C short burst is believable (90-100kW). 30C (300kW) is not.

As I said before...$900, even free, is pointless if you *have to* buy three more at $6k apiece.


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## Electric Land Cruiser (Dec 30, 2020)

remy_martian said:


> So, the conclusion here is that 10C short burst is believable (90-100kW). 30C (300kW) is not.
> 
> As I said before...$900, even free, is pointless if you *have to* buy three more at $6k apiece.


No you're wrong again. But I don't have the energy to deal with you anymore.


----------



## gregski (Sep 6, 2011)

remy_martian said:


> 360V at 26Ah, at 12.5HP for an hour, in a Chevy C10 pickup truck, the entire CONTEXT of my posting, is a golf cart conversion, not a pickup truck conversion, in terms of performance.
> 
> Pay attention.
> 
> Meanwhile, I'm butthurt that "batpack" didn't make it into the standard terminology, since, for the C10, the BMW battery pack no longer is one, cuz our Joker will need four or so of them.


Ah aka Amp Hours are not Amps aka current, this pack can deliver upwards of 500 amps, Ah is a marketing rating of how long a battery can go for not how powerful it is.

In the measurement of electricity, amps are a unit of electrical current; amp-hours are units of current storage capacity.


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## gregski (Sep 6, 2011)

remy_martian said:


> So, the conclusion here is that 10C short burst is believable (90-100kW). 30C (300kW) is not.
> 
> As I said before...$900, even free, is pointless if you *have to* buy three more at $6k apiece.


I am showing you how much I saved, I have sources where I can buy two more packs tomorrow for the same price if I wanted to, I am just holding off until I take this pack apart and learn more about it.


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

remy_martian said:


> So, the conclusion here is that 10C short burst is believable (90-100kW). 30C (300kW) is not.


I think that's about it. GM specifies 120 kW in a 10-second burst for the ~16 kWh Volt battery, which is about 7.5C, and that could probably be pushed a bit more even in production.



remy_martian said:


> As I said before...$900, even free, is pointless if you *have to* buy three more at $6k apiece.


But from the beginning, the plan for this project has been for the $900 pack to be temporary. Since it comes complete in a housing that will fit in the vehicle, it simplifies the construction for the first get-it-running round. A more rational later stage would be to choose and integrate an entirely different battery of larger capacity but similar voltage (then sell the intact small battery) rather than taking on the complexity of paralleling packs.


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

gregski said:


> Ah aka Amp Hours are not Amps aka current, this pack can deliver upwards of 500 amps, Ah is a marketing rating of how long a battery can go for not how powerful it is.
> 
> In the measurement of electricity, amps are a unit of electrical current; amp-hours are units of current storage capacity.


remy_martian and the rest of us who understand these terms know that. His comment was about energy storage capacity, not peak power capability.


----------



## remy_martian (Feb 4, 2019)

Let me get to peak power, since energy store is covered:

C is the rating of current on a cell

For lithium, generally:

3C is continuous draw...in your case 78Amps

10C is usually for 10-30 sec...in your case 260Amps

20C, your 500A, is likely a pulse current rating.

30C is a place where elves and leprachauns live.

Let's use the Tesla module as an example, since lithium is lithium more or less and Tesla is the self-proclaimed bestest lithium battery tech:

5.6kwhr, 6S, 3.75V is 250Ah.

Their 3C all day rating would be 750A.

Their "ludicrous" 10C rating for crazy sprints, the number of software limited few second dashes, would be 2500Amps. It's actually a few hundred amps less, but I'm being illustrative at the BMW pack (you decide whether to hyphenate, since either context works) nonsense here.

Your BMW magical 20C rating applied to a Teska pack would be 5000 amps (that could run a 2 Megawatt-ish motor), which is really ludicrous.

30C? 😂


----------



## remy_martian (Feb 4, 2019)

Note: The ludicrous modules have more cells, so my numbers are optimistic


----------



## Electric Land Cruiser (Dec 30, 2020)

brian_ said:


> remy_martian and the rest of us who understand these terms know that. His comment was about energy storage capacity, not peak power capability.


Actually, those of us that _know_ actually knew the exact capacity of this pack from the very first post in this thread so remy's post was not only a bad use of units and confusing but also superfluous.


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

Electric Land Cruiser said:


> Actually, those of us that _know_ actually knew the exact capacity of this pack from the very first post in this thread so remy's post was not only a bad use of units and confusing but also superfluous.


Since we also knew the voltage, the amp-hour capacity implied the energy capacity. I'll agree it's not ideal - I was just pointing out to gregski that there was no confusion between amp-hours and amps to be corrected.


----------



## Electric Land Cruiser (Dec 30, 2020)

brian_ said:


> Since we also knew the voltage, the amp-hour capacity implied the energy capacity. I'll agree it's not ideal - I was just pointing out to gregski that there was no confusion between amp-hours and amps to be corrected.


Honestly something must be wrong if _you_ don't care about the confusion of units and _I _am correcting him


----------



## remy_martian (Feb 4, 2019)

C is a charge unit. Magical. Works in metric, english units, portable between amps and Ah


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## gregski (Sep 6, 2011)

gentlemen... take a knee


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## gregski (Sep 6, 2011)

I recall driving back with this *BMW 530e* battery pack and pulling over about an hour into my 8 hour treck in a panic attack! Shoot did I remember the High Voltage Service Disconnect plug??? I pulled over to the unsafe shoulder of I5 and in a frantic panic started to manhandle that 1,800 pound beast.  I looked on top, I looked underneath, wait what, where the hell is the service disconnect? Are the German's playing a joke on me?

so here just so you know what I am talking about is a Nissan Leaf battery pack with the orange service plug removed from that white connector


----------



## gregski (Sep 6, 2011)

post reserved for detailed walk around pics or video o my battery


----------



## gregski (Sep 6, 2011)

well if I pulled up the right PDF below than we see that the *BMW 530e* plug it in hybrid had a "remote" *High Voltage* Service Disconnect plug located in the trunk behind the side service panel on the passenger side

Can you say crisis averted! ha ha


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## remy_martian (Feb 4, 2019)

Disconnects are for sissies


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

remy_martian said:


> C is a charge unit. Magical. Works in metric, english units, portable between amps and Ah


It's a rate of charge or discharge measure, which actually has the units of 1/hour.


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## gregski (Sep 6, 2011)

*Fun Facts:*


The world's #1 best selling electric car (with over one million units sold), the Tesla Model 3 has a *350 volt* battery pack.


The world's #2 best selling electric car, the Nissan Leaf has a *350 volt* battery pack.

the BMW 530e plug in hybrid pack is ... [wait for it] ...

...

*351 volts *(that's one more, it goes to 351) that's why I refer to it as "Full Voltage" !

Note: _The Germans don't play that Nominal vs Real voltage crap, and neither do I._


----------



## remy_martian (Feb 4, 2019)

351.36V and 9135Wh

This number of sig figs is an example of why people with liberal arts degrees need to stay the heck out of technology marketing.

Giving them credit, at least they rounded off ze part number 😂


----------



## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

gregski said:


> *Fun Facts:*
> 
> 
> The world's #1 best selling electric car (with over one million units sold), the Tesla Model 3 has a *350 volt* battery pack.
> ...


Yes, a 96S configuration of NMC or NCA lithium-ion cells is by far the most common EV battery design, and it has a nominal voltage around 350 volts. That's why choosing that voltage for a DIY EV makes sense.... because it makes a lot of salvaged EV components usable.

Voltage is only aspect of the battery, and it's not enough by itself. The most obvious other characteristic is energy capacity. If the plan is originally stated - to get everything running with a small battery then replace it with a more useful size later - then I agree that a roughly 350 volt battery from a plug-in hybrid makes sense for the initial system.


----------



## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

gregski said:


> Note: _The Germans don't play that Nominal vs Real voltage crap, and neither do I._
> 
> View attachment 125373


These Germans certainly *do* use nominal voltage, and so are you, gregski. 😁

That 351.36 V value is the nominal voltage of the pack, not the minimum voltage when discharged, the maximum voltage when fully charged, or anything else. For confirmation, the product of the stated charge capacity (26 AH) and the stated nominal voltage (351.36 V) is the nominal energy capacity (9135 Wh). The actual voltage during charging and discharging goes through a substantial range; it isn't fixed at 351.36 V.

The voltage and energy values are even noted with a subscript "N", meaning "nominal". Perhaps there's some confusion here about the meaning of the word: "nominal" means the value used to identify the battery, not "approximate".


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

remy_martian said:


> 351.36V and 9135Wh
> 
> This number of sig figs is an example of why people with liberal arts degrees need to stay the heck out of technology marketing.


To be fair to the marketing people, these values with excessive precision are not used in BMW marketing materials - it's not a marketing issue at all.

My guess is that each unit is tested, the nominal voltage and energy shown are the results of that test, and it's simply reported on the label with more precision than either required or justified by the test method. Alternatively, the nominal voltage could be the cell manufacturer's stated cell nominal voltage multiplied 96. Either way, my guess is that an engineer (someone with "Ing." in their professional title) is responsible.


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## remy_martian (Feb 4, 2019)

Racist me thought it was "Nazi" voltage and energy vs norminal


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## remy_martian (Feb 4, 2019)

^^ Are you saying each pack is reported as a different value? I'll take the 9136Wh unit, instead, because it's obviously better.

No, Brian. It's not measured. Some chimp divided 9135 by 26 in deciding what to put on the label for nominal voltage.


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

remy_martian said:


> ^^ Are you saying each pack is reported as a different value? I'll take the 9136Wh unit, instead, because it's obviously better.
> 
> No, Brian. It's not measured. Some chimp divided 9135 by 26 in deciding what to put on the label for nominal voltage.


I found one other image of an SP06 pack, and it also read 351,36 and 9135, so yes... it's likely not individual. It could be from division of 9135 by 26 rather than multiplication, but that would be 351.346153846, which would round to 351.35 not 351.36. Still nothing to do with marketing - the marketing people would probably prefer that customers never see labels like this.


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## remy_martian (Feb 4, 2019)

You are referring to consumer marketing, which I am not. Internally to most organizations, there's strategic or product marketing that owns the product or function including its definition and specification. These are usually engineers, but the occasional basket weaver gets the job.


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## gregski (Sep 6, 2011)

*Battery Pack Lesson #1* - You have to turn it on.

So one of the first things I learned about an electric car battery pack is that it is more than just of box full of batteries (technically cell modules). It actually contains some intelligence and as such aka being an electronic component needs to be powered on ie turned On. This is one of the reasons why electric vehicles still require regular 12 volt car batteries.

So you can't just shove your Multimeter probes up it's butt as such and get a high voltage reading.


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

gregski said:


> So you can't just shove your Multimeter probes up it's [butt] as such and get a high voltage reading.


That's a good thing! 



gregski said:


> *Battery Pack Lesson #1* - You have to turn it on.
> 
> So one of the first things I learned about an electric car battery pack is that it is more than just of box full of batteries (technically cell modules). It actually contains some intelligence and as such aka being an electronic component needs to be powered on ie turned On. This is one of the reasons why electric vehicles still require regular 12 volt car batteries.


Not much intelligence is required... just contactors with control power provided from the outside, although what is actually in the pack varies.

It does lead to the amusing scene of someone attaching booster cables to an EV to "jump start" it ... that's really how it works.

This is one reason that these are sometimes referred to as "energy storage systems"... they're more than a battery.


----------



## gregski (Sep 6, 2011)

Ah Yeah, stuff's about to get real !

*Safety Third !*


----------



## remy_martian (Feb 4, 2019)




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## gregski (Sep 6, 2011)

So here is *WolfTronix* turning on his Nissan Leaf battery pack with a car battery outside the vehicle, this is exactly what I hope to figure out how to do with my BMW 530e plug in hybrid battery pack


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## gregski (Sep 6, 2011)

*I'm thinkin' these guys need to rethink their Domain name?!*


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## remy_martian (Feb 4, 2019)

You may not be able to. 

It looks like Nissan controls the battery contactors directly with an external 12VDC signal. 

BMW might not.


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

gregski said:


> *I'm thinkin' these guys need to rethink their Domain name?!*
> 
> View attachment 125411


While "All" data might be reaching, it's not bad. It's likely that BMW refuses to license their technical documentation because they want to lock their customers into their dealers, or BMW may just want an unreasonable fee for the access; either would be consistent with BMW corporate policy.


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## gregski (Sep 6, 2011)

brian_ said:


> While "All" data might be reaching, it's not bad. It's likely that BMW refuses to license their technical documentation because they want to lock their customers into their dealers, or BMW may just want an unreasonable fee for the access; either would be consistent with BMW corporate policy.


Brian I'm not sure if you are old enuff to remember Radar from MASH but he was a guy who could find and get anything even if he was stranded in the middle of the desert, you have exhibited similar skills, so I humbly ask you for help in finding a pin out for that mystery control connector on my BMW 530e plug in hybrid battery pack, I will post some pics of it and the pig tail.


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## remy_martian (Feb 4, 2019)

You could just crack open the case and simply trace the wires from the contactor(s) coil(z)...or run some wires to the contactor(s) through that connector if there isn't a direct connection.

You got the gloves, time to use them?


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## gregski (Sep 6, 2011)

remy_martian said:


> You could just crack open the case and simply trace the wires from the contactor(s) coil(z)...or run some wires to the contactor(s) through that connector if there isn't a direct connection.
> 
> You got the gloves, time to use them?


That's exactly what I plan on doing tomorrow.


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## gregski (Sep 6, 2011)

let's do this


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## gregski (Sep 6, 2011)

so after you simply remove the 427 torxeses you can lift the lid off, it is not glued on like the Tesla and Nissan packs, comes right off


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## gregski (Sep 6, 2011)

I'm guessing this is the BMS Battery Management System black box with the blue connector in the front of this side, black wire harness signifies low voltage so like 12 volts or less, and these wires are probably for power, ground, and CAN Bus messages aka communication / control


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## gregski (Sep 6, 2011)

and on the opposite is the Pre Charge Circuit which consists of a couple high voltage contactors aka powerful switches/relays

here I have first disconnected the short orange cables that run from that black box to the front orange high voltage plug on the outside of the box











and in this pic I show the two cell module leads that run from the batteries to the black box aka Pre Charge Circuit


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## gregski (Sep 6, 2011)

but you guys don't care about that you wanna know how many volts it reads?

346 volts


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## gregski (Sep 6, 2011)

I also removed and measured a single cell module

it read 57.7 out of 58.5 volts



















BMW 530e plug in hybrid high voltage HV battery pack


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## gregski (Sep 6, 2011)

and I couldn't resist weighing one of the modules, it weighs *27.7 lbs *so six times that equals 166.2 for all six modules










BMW 530e plug in hybrid high voltage HV battery pack


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

gregski said:


> and I couldn't resist weighing one of the modules, it weighs *27.7 lbs*


Real data is always good. 

That's 121 Wh/kg... not great, but okay for a plug-in hybrid of this vintage.


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## gregski (Sep 6, 2011)

brian_ said:


> Real data is always good.
> 
> That's 121 Wh/kg... not great, but okay for a plug-in hybrid of this vintage.


yup, the lid all by itself weighed in at *18.2* pounds


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## gregski (Sep 6, 2011)

and here is the empty(ish) cavity with the *#3 Cell Module* removed, notice the cooling plate/sync and the cooling pipes/lines


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## gregski (Sep 6, 2011)

and here is how BMW numbers the Cell Modules


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## gregski (Sep 6, 2011)

So *Cell Module #1* is hidden underneath Cell Module #3 (shown already removed in the pic below, what you see is the gray aluminum heat sync which is sandwiched between Cell Module #3 and Cell Module #1 below it) what would have been on the passenger side in the stock car, picture the battery back directly below the rear seat, hence it's odd shape to clear the exhaust pipe and the drive shaft running down the middle 

Something that is significant about Cell Module #1 is that it's *Negative Lead* runs all the way across the battery pack to the Pre Charge Circuit black box in the driver side compartment. I don't get why BMW did that rather than running a much shorter Negative Lead off the #5 Cell Module directly next to the Pre Charge Circuit?!


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## gregski (Sep 6, 2011)

here you can see how the #2 Cell Module positive lead is labeled, I kept it upside down for perspective (you can also see those silly hook clips that lock the leads in place)


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## gregski (Sep 6, 2011)

and this is what the BMW 530e plug in hybrid battery pack leads on Cell Module #3 look like from a bird's eye view


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## gregski (Sep 6, 2011)

number 4 sits on top on the other side










Part Number: 862101804


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## gregski (Sep 6, 2011)

number 5 is in front on the driver's side

note the beauty of the modular BMS black box thingies, they can sit on top or on the sides, on the left or on the right of each Cell Module, how cool is that?


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## gregski (Sep 6, 2011)

and this is a place holder for number 6 below number 4 when we get to it


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## gregski (Sep 6, 2011)

So inside a high voltage battery pack we essentially have four things:

Cell Modules
Pre Charge Circuit
BMS
Cooling/Heating System


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## remy_martian (Feb 4, 2019)

Get a decent Voltmeter vs that free with purchase Harbor Fright abomination. 

You don't know what voltage you really have with those and the connectors on those lead wires could get you killed.


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

gregski said:


> yup, the lid all by itself weighed in at *18.2* pounds
> 
> View attachment 125475


And this...


brian_ said:


> That's 121 Wh/kg...


... was for just the modules; the mass of the box they're brings that value down further.


----------



## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

gregski said:


> and here is the empty(ish) cavity with the *#3 Cell Module* removed, notice the cooling plate/sync...


I couldn't figure out what was being synchronized, until I realized that was supposed to be a heat "sink".


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

gregski said:


> ... picture the battery back directly below the rear seat, hence it's odd shape to clear the exhaust pipe running down the middle (not the drive shaft, this was a front wheel drive vehicle)...


The 530e - like every 5-Series, 3-Series, and 7-Series ever made - is rear wheel drive (with optional AWD in many cases). Both the shaft and the exhaust pipe go through that tunnel, with the shaft above the pipe. See one of the published illustrations (that one is from a Green Car Reports article) for the configuration.

It doesn't matter to the use of this battery in an EV conversion, and especially not the modules within it, but understanding where this pack comes from might save someone the frustration of looking for the non-existent front wheel drive 5-series hybrid.


----------



## remy_martian (Feb 4, 2019)

I can see why @gregski reached that conclusion. From earlier in this thread, it's not obvious there's a driveshaft anywhere here:


----------



## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

remy_martian said:


> I can see why @gregski reached that conclusion. From earlier in this thread, it's not obvious there's a driveshaft anywhere here:
> View attachment 125492


I agree - with the shaft already removed from this vehicle being stripped down for salvage, it looks like just an exhaust pipe tunnel; the space for the shaft is not obvious. If the model name were not given, it might not have occurred to me that front wheel drive didn't make sense... although BMW avoids FWD, building only their smallest models (including the not-BMW-branded Mini) that way, so it would be a bizarre choice for them.


----------



## gregski (Sep 6, 2011)

in this video we take a peak inside the BMW 530e plug in hybrid, high voltage battery pack


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## remy_martian (Feb 4, 2019)

Interesting video - it was great seeing what's inside the box. A lot of money was spent on the tooling - money I'm not sure BMW would ever break even on.

You made me wince each time you reached in to the connectors and modules, though. The video is in the past, and it's frustrating to watch and not be able to yell at you to stop.

The high voltage gloves come as two pairs. An inner set and an outer pair. You had shown us those two pairs when you took delivery.

The rubber gloves you're wearing on the outside in the video (I assume you're wearing the other set underneath?) are the barrier between you and death. Should you pierce these while didling with connectors or picking up sheet metal, they become useless as a high voltage barrier.

Which is the purpose of the second leather gloves pair. They are worn OVER the rubber gloves to protect the rubber barrier gloves from abrasion, cuts, and punctures (nothing is infallible, of course).

You should also be using insulated tools to pry connectors, etc, not gloved hands. You should not be reaching into a live pack with *both* hands. 

And that meter you are using is junk, as I previously mentioned...I used one to measure cell to cell balance on some Tesla modules and it gave different readings; a subsequent check with my HP revealed they were balanced within 10mV. Not only accuracy, but the creep distance between the lead and the plug on yours seems precarious.

You survived. Did your rubber gloves? I'm not sure how you test them after using them as work gloves - maybe somebody here knows. Not sure I'd keep using them.

We all learn from each other here. You're doing a good job in keeping things fundamental, basic, and understandable and in motivating people like me to get back on the horse after Covid knocked me off it (thank you). 

Not sure how you can address the safety side to preface your video on HV safety now that the cat's out of the bag on the practices you got away with.


----------



## gregski (Sep 6, 2011)

remy_martian said:


> The high voltage gloves come as two pairs. An inner set and an outer pair. You had shown us those two pairs when you took delivery.


That set would have been useless as they were designed to work on high voltage power lines where you use tools that are 2 feet long and turn bolts that are the size of your fist, they are way too bulky for these tiny German clips, I have video on the floor of my editing room where I show how you can't get your finger under the clips to press on them to get them undone.



remy_martian said:


> The rubber gloves you're wearing on the outside in the video (I assume you're wearing the other set underneath?)


Incorrect, I'm not that stupid




remy_martian said:


> You should also be using insulated tools to pry connectors, etc, not gloved hands. You should not be reaching into a live pack with *both* hands.


go ahead and buy one of these exact packs and show us how you do what I did with special tools and using only one hand, I'll hold



remy_martian said:


> And that meter you are using is junk, as I previously mentioned...


Yes you did, so get back to me when yours is 30 years old like this one, we were not splitting hairs here we were going for initial measurements I say in the video we will get more precise readings later



remy_martian said:


> You survived. Did your rubber gloves?


 they are disposable



remy_martian said:


> Not sure how you can address the safety side to preface your video on HV safety now that the cat's out of the bag on the practices you got away with.


Not my job, if someone is dumb enough to get zapped they will get zapped, and you don't think those German engineers built a shiet ton of safety features into that battery pack, for example all connectors are like an inch within the plastic housings, my multimeter leads which are over an inch long could barely reach them


----------



## gregski (Sep 6, 2011)

last year *Damien Maguire* aka "Jack Bower" on the Open Inverter forum mentions in his thread *The LandYacht BMW E39 Saloon* how he dug deep into his BMW 740e battery pack (a cousing of the 530e on her mother's side) it's worth a look as he shares the pin out, I am going to steal [ahem] borrow his pics and post them here for completeness, he also tells us:

"The blue plug has ten wires :

2x brown with black strip grounds
2x red with white strip 5v supply to slaves (NOT 12V!)
2x blue fault lines
2x yellow with red strip CAN High
2x yellow with brown strip CAN Low

CAN runs at 500kbps."

[Thanks Be To Damien]


----------



## gregski (Sep 6, 2011)

In our quest to obtain more info on the state of charge of all of our 96 little cells we must get acquainted with *Mr. Tom de Bree* of the *SimpBMS* fame

Tom has brewed a special flavor of his famous *SimpBMS* called BMWPhevBMS specifically for BMW Plug In Hybrid Electric Vehicles like our *BMW 530e* and made it available for us for download on his GitHub for FREE

*GitHub* for those of us uninitiated ([ahem] like me) is what you get when you mate a Web server with a File server and give a place for propeller heads (sorry, programmers) to upload and share their code


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## gregski (Sep 6, 2011)

and so if you are like me and missed the direct link to the *BMWPhevBMS* above, you would be starring at Tom's GitHub Overview page that looks like this, with it no where to be found


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## gregski (Sep 6, 2011)

and I hear all the GitHub experts screaming: "CLICK ON THE REPOSITORIES LINK, STUPD"


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## gregski (Sep 6, 2011)

Alright, alright, you don't have to yell


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## gregski (Sep 6, 2011)

so we click on the green Code button then the Download ZIP file


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## gregski (Sep 6, 2011)

so this is what the donor car looks like, who knew ?!


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## gregski (Sep 6, 2011)

and I'll be honest with you this is not how I pictured the battery pack sitting under the rear seat, seems backwards to me


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## gregski (Sep 6, 2011)

Here's some vehicle performance specs

For those of us who cut Professor Proton's physics class on the day she taught horse power conversions, remember Killer Whales divided by 750 equals Pony Power!

so 83 kW is 83,000

so 83,000 / 750 = 110.6 which we can round to 111 and send that to the Marketing Department so they can print 113, LoL


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## gregski (Sep 6, 2011)

*BMW 530e High Voltage Battery - What Are Things:*


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## Electric Land Cruiser (Dec 30, 2020)

gregski said:


> Here's some vehicle performance specs, I'm a bit confused on how to read that, do they mean combined gasoline engine and electric motor power or just "electrical machine" output?
> 
> For those of us who cut Professor Proton's physics class on the day she taught horse power conversions, remember Killer Whales divided by 750 equals Pony Power!
> 
> ...


Germans use "PS" which is metric horsepower basically and therefore slightly different.


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## gregski (Sep 6, 2011)

Electric Land Cruiser said:


> Germans use "PS" which is metric horsepower basically and therefore slightly different.


Thanks, I was wondering if maybe the 83 kW included some change?


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## gregski (Sep 6, 2011)

and here are the *BMW 530e* plug in hybrid high voltage SP06 battery pack Spectaculars


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

gregski said:


> and I'll be honest with you this is not how I pictured the battery pack sitting under the rear seat, seems backwards to me
> 
> View attachment 125577


It did to me, too, at first - the pack by itself looks like it has recesses for two rear seat butt cushions - but I assume that it is actually shaped to fit with the fuel tank, which will be above and behind the battery pack.


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

gregski said:


> so this is what the donor car looks like, who knew ?!
> 
> View attachment 125576


Everyone who saw my previous post and followed the link to a ghost image of the same car


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

One horsepower is 550 ft⋅lbf/s or 746 watts (not quite 750 W, but that's good enough approximation for mental arithmetic).
One European DIN 66036 "metric horsepower" (German: PS for pferdestärke) is 735.49875 watts; Pferdestärke literally means horsepower, but it is a different unit with a fundamental definition (75 m⋅kgf/s) which is close to but different from the original horsepower (550 ft⋅lbf/s).

It's easier to just use watts (and kilowatts, etc).


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

gregski said:


> and here are the *BMW 530e* plug in hybrid high voltage SP06 battery pack Spectaculars
> 
> View attachment 125580


There's the 83 kW value again, reflecting the rating of the motor in the ZF hybrid transmission.


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## gregski (Sep 6, 2011)

here's a little exploded view


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## gregski (Sep 6, 2011)

and here's how the six cell modules are connected together with the high voltage orange wires

#1 Part Number: 61278621016 Main Negative (runs from Cell Module #1 to the Safety Box #8 front connector)

#2 Part Number: 61278621017 Connects Cell Module #2 to Cell Module #3

#3 Part Number: 61278621018 Connects Cell Module #3 to Cell Module #4

#4 Part Number:61278621019 Connects Cell Module #4 to Cell Module #5

#? Part Number:??????????? Connects Cell Module #5 to Cell Module #6

#5 Part Number: 61278621020 Main Positive (runs from Cell Module #6 to the Safety Box #7 front connector)

#6 Part Number: 61278618444 Connects Cell Module #1 to Cell Module #2

===========================================================

#7 Part Number: 61278650791 External Connector Positive

#8 Part Number: 61278650793 External Connector Negative


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## gregski (Sep 6, 2011)

I plucked a few cables for funsies, the connectors appear to be keyed, but seem flipable 

for example the top one connects Module #2 to Module #3 and appears to be identical (although flipped over) to the one that connects Module #4 to Module #5


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## gregski (Sep 6, 2011)

so in addition to the special BMW Plug In Hybrid Battery Management System software which we just downloaded, I needed some hardware to run it on, and when I say some I mean some, cause this thing is tiny

so I had to get something called *Teensy 3.2* looks like this and it set me back $26 bucks on Amazon and looks like it's coming from Florida all the way to California, ... Great!










OK, what is it? it's a baby computer, basically a green circuit board with a black microcontroller on it and a shinny micro USB port (and a bunch of holes to plug wires into)


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## gregski (Sep 6, 2011)

and if you think that thing is small, wait till you see the next gizmo we need

it's called a *CAN Bus transceiver* (pronounced: middle woman) it's going to sit between our little Teensy and the BMW BMS

(I'm sorry I am deliberately not providing direct links to these components as they tend to break or what if yours doesn't work and you come knocking on my door)


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## gregski (Sep 6, 2011)

we may also need some of these 120 ohm jelly beans


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## gregski (Sep 6, 2011)

alright so this is a good time as any to build up your Electronics Toolbox


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## gregski (Sep 6, 2011)

so lets download yet another piece of software and add that to our toolbox, this one is called *Arduino IDE* (pronounced: _Notepad on Steroids_) think of this Integrated Development Environment like the Microsoft Office (collection of applications such as Word, Excel, PowerPoint, etc.) but for geeks, nerds, and programmers. This "environment" or shell will run Tom's *BMWPhevBMS* code that we downloaded a couple posts ago, this will all come together and make sense soon.


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## gregski (Sep 6, 2011)

I made a crappy video on how Arduino relates to EV Conversions here: (it's not going to win any Best Picture awards but it's a decent primer)


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## remy_martian (Feb 4, 2019)

With all that "fine German engineering", I wonder if the hybrid mode of the car is disabled in cold weather since there's no way to heat the pack?


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## gregski (Sep 6, 2011)

alright once we get all our tiny Teensy hardware we will connect it like so following the instruction from *Scratch Robotics* *How to use CANbus on Teensy 3.2 (FlexCAN)*

FYI: the top green board is the Teensy it will get it's power from our laptop using a micro USB cable plugged in to that chrome metal plug on the right of it 

it then in turn will provide 3.3 volts to the smaller blue card aka the CAN Bus transceiver via the *red *wire and ground via the *black*/brownish wire

the *green* (TX aka transmit) and *blue* (RX aka receive) wires are the signal wires ie intelligence or communication that we want to hear from the BMW OEM BMS,


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## gregski (Sep 6, 2011)

now you may say wait what, where am I supposed to get all those little wires and connectors (if any are needed) from

so I first got started with Arduino I went out and bought one of thse 8 year old starter kits


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## gregski (Sep 6, 2011)

but you don't have to you can just buy the wires by themselves I think they are called Dupont wires but Googling breadboard wires also pulls them up


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## gregski (Sep 6, 2011)

I realize we are getting deep in the weeds here but I just want you guys to have all the information and then you decide what you want to do with it

and keep in mind this whole Tangent is optional, all I am trying to do is get a better reading of what my 96 individual battery cells are charged to and more importantly how far off is the best (highest) one from the worst (lowest) one 

you don't have to do this to convert your car to electric and drive it around


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

remy_martian said:


> View attachment 125635
> 
> View attachment 125636
> 
> ...


I'm not familiar with the 530e battery thermal management - are you saying that, as the "evaporator" part name suggests, the modules are cooled directly by the air conditioner (not via a circulating liquid), and that it can't be reversed to act as a heat pump, heating the battery?


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## gregski (Sep 6, 2011)

finally the Teensy thingie arrived


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## gregski (Sep 6, 2011)

so what's the first thing I do, I hook-up-tize it to the good ol' PC

Note: you may have to try a couple different USB cables until you make this card happy, some USB cables are just for charging others are for charging and data


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## gregski (Sep 6, 2011)

high fives all the way around if you made it this far, but wait there's more crap to download, since Teensy is not made by Arduino (it is made by PJRJ) and is essentially their competitor (sort of) but we want to use the Arduino Integrated Development Environment aka IDE to push TOM's code to the Teensy we need to go out and download a plug in or add-on for the Arduino called *Teensyduino* folk's I am not making these silly names up

so go download and install that and then when you double click on Tom's *BMWPhevBMS.ino* file it will launch Arduino IDE and inside of there if you click on Tools \ Board you'll now be able to see what ever flavor of Teensy board you went out and bought, hopefully the 3.2 version


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## gregski (Sep 6, 2011)

Well this next part was a bit odd but my Teensy did not pop up on a COM port until I compiled the code, but either way you should point Arduino IDE at the correct COM port (the COM port # does not matter, pick the one that shows a Teensy on it)


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## gregski (Sep 6, 2011)

now compiling Tom's code in Arduino is something you will have to figure out on your own, most likely you will be in what I call Arduino library hell, that is a right of passage, one you must travel on your own, so setup a Cuss Jar and have at it

If indeed you succeed you will be rewarded with some repetitive output running inside of the Arduino Serial Monitor, basically a window that shows you what the hell is going on, what the Teensy and the little transceiver are sensing ie seeing from the BMS

the window below is not reporting any meaningful data yet, because I am running the code without the Teensy hooked up to the BMW battery pack yet


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## remy_martian (Feb 4, 2019)

brian_ said:


> I'm not familiar with the 530e battery thermal management - are you saying that, as the "evaporator" part name suggests, the modules are cooled directly by the air conditioner (not via a circulating liquid), and that it can't be reversed to act as a heat pump, heating the battery?


I don't know, which is why I'm asking. It's not a "heat exchanger", but an "evaporator". Model Y was touted as first to use a heat pump...


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

remy_martian said:


> I don't know, which is why I'm asking. It's not a "heat exchanger", but an "evaporator"...


Yep, that's the clue that I had picked up. I finally found a promising description, in a good overview of the system (the rest of which isn't very relevant here since gregski is only using the battery):
BMW Plug-in Hybrid Electric Vehicle (PHEV) powertrain architecture
... but all it says is that the battery "has its own cooling system integrated into the climate control system for the interior."

If those are really air conditioning system evaporators, they might not be the best choice for circulating liquid, but if only the modules are used in the EV - on different cooling plates - that won't matter.


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## remy_martian (Feb 4, 2019)

The connectors and plumbing seems to all be refrigerant-based.

Found this:

"There’s also a cooling system for each battery module, supplied with refrigerant from the car’s AC system – there’s a TXV mounted on the side of the battery pack. I didn’t see any heaters present"

here: BMW Series 5 Hybrid Battery Pack Teardown – Experimental Engineering


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## remy_martian (Feb 4, 2019)

"we are on our second week plus of very cold weather. That being -18f to 0f overnight to highs of 5f to 10f. I got a battery warning message that stated the battery output has been reduced until it warmed up. That is the propulsion battery. Car had been sitting plugged in with a trickle charger on the 12 V battery. It took about 50 miles at highway speeds to clear."









Very Cold/Snowy Weather Effects on 2019 530EX


In the past three days, I made a trip from Boston up to Burlington, VT, over to the Adirondacks, down to Albany and back to Boston. The G30/530EX we own has multiple driver assistance features. I discovered that once I was driving in snow and cold temperatures that the adaptive cruise control...




www.bimmerfest.com





Now I'm wondering if they use the slipstream heat from the ICE, or possibly the exhaust pipe/cat heat, upstream in the tunnel to warm the pack. 

Radiative to the shield, then conduction to the battery case?


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

remy_martian said:


> "we are on our second week plus of very cold weather. That being -18f to 0f overnight to highs of 5f to 10f. I got a battery warning message that stated the battery output has been reduced until it warmed up. That is the propulsion battery. Car had been sitting plugged in with a trickle charger on the 12 V battery. It took about 50 miles at highway speeds to clear."
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I think the battery just warmed up due to use, plus accidental heat transfer from the exhaust pipe that runs right under it. Maybe that's all it needs in the hybrid, although a battery-electric vehicle would be a different situation.


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## remy_martian (Feb 4, 2019)

I don't think it's accidental. 

The batteries are unusable in cold temperatures, so I don't see how they'd warm up from use otherwise. Even for the 45 minutes - can't charge or discharge at any decent rate, unless they abusively charge them until they warm up?

That said, having a hybrid that isn't one below freezing temperatures seems like a scam.


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

remy_martian said:


> ... That said, having a hybrid that isn't one below freezing temperatures seems like a scam.


The threshold for battery operation isn't freezing (that is, the freezing point of water); it is much lower than that. But yes, operating in the real world is often far from the promoted ideal.


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## gregski (Sep 6, 2011)

so I managed to hook this Teensy BMW Phev BMS to my BMW 530e battery pack outside the car (obviously) and get some readings





















remember we only need to supply 5 volts not 12











you don't have to use the breadboard, I did because I did not have any female to female Dupont cables, otherwise I could have just joined the smaller transceiver board directly to the larger Teensy board











so yeah there are two sets of black (ground aka negative) wires and two sets of red (5 volt positive) wires because the pack seems to be split in half and one pair powers up one side and the other the other side


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## gregski (Sep 6, 2011)

and this is what the data looks like


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## gregski (Sep 6, 2011)

when I bought the battery I made sure to get this low voltage black harness pig tail, this is how you power up the high voltage battery and talk to it using CAN (Controller Area Network) - essentially a car network


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## gregski (Sep 6, 2011)

usually when you see a pair of wires twisted together aka a twisted pair, that's a dead giveaway that it is a CAN signal, CAN uses two wires, one for what they call CAN high and one for CAN low


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## gregski (Sep 6, 2011)

the back of the vertical plug snaps off and we can see two separate leads, the smaller two wire one just goes to the thermal controller to the right of the BMS connector, we are not concerned with this short (yellow and brown wire) pig tail


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## gregski (Sep 6, 2011)

and here is my idea of a proper pin out diagram, aka a picture of the actual wires coming out of the plug, ha ha

you can almost make it out that the pins are numbered starting with the thicker 12 volt positive red wire on pin #1 upper left and going across to what I would imagine is a negative brown wire on pin #12? don't quote me on this, I'm just spit ballin'

then the second row starts on pin #13 with the two sets of twisted pair CAN wires and runs through pin #16


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## remy_martian (Feb 4, 2019)

Someone needs a workbench for Xmas 🤓


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## gregski (Sep 6, 2011)

So I wanted to talk about this design especially the breadboard (that white piece of plastic with all the holes in it) and how you really don't need one, but why I used it

so you could connect the blue CAN Bus transceiver board on the left directly to the green Teensy board on the right if you have the right wires, which I didn't at the time, so I just used the breadboard as an intermediate stop gap, basically you need some female to female connection wires and I only had male / male wires
​





​​


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## gregski (Sep 6, 2011)

so yeah I went out and bought a new Dupont wire set just to show you guys cause you know Science n Shiet


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## gregski (Sep 6, 2011)

so here is the small blue CAN Bus transceiver board connected directly using a red (female/female) wire to the positive 3.3 volt pin and the black (female/female) wire negative pin of the Teensy 3.2 green board so that it can get it's power, no breadboard needed


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## gregski (Sep 6, 2011)

and here I've added the blue CAN RX (Receive) wire and the green CAN TX (Transmit) wire 

and the End Result = that of using the breadboard, so you have a choice, hope that helps


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## gregski (Sep 6, 2011)

so I am learning a bit more about the *SimpBMS* or our version of it the *BMWPhevBMS*

when we first connect it all up to our laptop and to the battery pack we get an endless loop scrolling in the Arduino Serial Monitor basically a terminal monitor for showing basic text based menus (very primitive but effective way to configure things)

however when we press *S* that *Stops* the scrolling and shows us the Menu

we can play with this without being connected to the Battery Pack, you can just hook up your Teensy to your computer with an USB cable and launch Arduino IDE and open the Serial Monitor in it and have a look like so


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## gregski (Sep 6, 2011)

so let's explore these *SimpBMS* options some more

*b* will take us into *Battery Settings








*


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## gregski (Sep 6, 2011)

*a* is for *Alarm and Warning Settings* on the SimpBMS menu










SimpBMS BMWPhevBMS


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## gregski (Sep 6, 2011)

e for Charging Settings




















SimpBMS BMWPhevBMS


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## remy_martian (Feb 4, 2019)

Not just "e"

There's also the F'y cency...

Hyst her, sis'


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## gregski (Sep 6, 2011)

so let's quickly finish visiting all the options on this *SimpBMS* menu

pressing C will give take us to the Current Sensor Calibration submenu


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## gregski (Sep 6, 2011)

k for Contactor and Gauge Settings










BMWPhevBMS


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## gregski (Sep 6, 2011)

if for Ignore Value Settings












SimpBMS, BMWPhevBMS


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## gregski (Sep 6, 2011)

and lastly we have d for Debug Settings, the rest are self explanatory










SimpBMS, BMWPhevBMS


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## gregski (Sep 6, 2011)

now this is a reminder that this thread is about the BMW 530e battery pack and not SimpBMS, so let's make a quick distinction. *SimpBMS* is a combination of hardware and software invented by *Tom De Bree*, he no longer sells it himself but has partnered up with some resellers *Bmw hybrid battery pack and simpbms*

this is what the *SimpBMS* hardware looks like ( pic borrowed from *lithium-power.com.au* ) does anything look familiar?


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## gregski (Sep 6, 2011)

taking a deeper dive into the battery pack in this video


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## remy_martian (Feb 4, 2019)

You never explained why you're playing module-Lego on a seemingly random-sized sheet of plywood.


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## gregski (Sep 6, 2011)

so picked up a 2 foot by 4 foot piece of ply wood at Home Depot to use as a reference to show you how much space the six cell modules from the BMW 530e battery pack actually take up

each of the six cell modules measures 7" wide by 15" long


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## remy_martian (Feb 4, 2019)

Some Canadian MBA weasel figured out how to add 3% of cost to their profits on 3/8 plywood. Good old shrinkflation.


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

remy_martian said:


> Some Canadian MBA weasel figured out how to add 3% of cost to their profits on 3/8 plywood. Good old shrinkflation.


That's an exterior sheathing panel specifically for soffits, 11/32 APA panel performance category, following the standards of APA – The Engineered Wood Association... which is headquartered in Tacoma, WA. If you want something called 3/8" plywood, buy that. Nominal sizes and actual dimensions have only tenuous connections in any wood product, and that has been true longer than any of us have been alive.


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## remy_martian (Feb 4, 2019)

~$80 bucks a sheet for the 11/32? Getting tempting to build my next house out of carbon fiber for economic reasons


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## gregski (Sep 6, 2011)

here's a different look at em


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## remy_martian (Feb 4, 2019)

A sheet, not the sheet. A sheet is 4x8


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

remy_martian said:


> ~$80 bucks a sheet for the 11/32? Getting tempting to build my next house out of carbon fiber for economic reasons





remy_martian said:


> A sheet, not the sheet. A sheet is 4x8


LOL 
Of course full sheets are not four times the price of 1/4 sheet convenience panels, but regardless I appreciate the $18 expenditure to give us a scale reference.


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## gregski (Sep 6, 2011)

so I went out and bought some new battery cables, I bought two of the main negative lead cables, as they are the longest in the pack


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## gregski (Sep 6, 2011)

the ends are keyed so they go in a certain way


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## gregski (Sep 6, 2011)

I decided to pop one open to see how it was built, since I could feel that there were really two wires side by side in that orange mesh housing































I wish I could ask the German engineers if there is another reason for the side by sideness other than the flatness


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## gregski (Sep 6, 2011)

having acquired the new expensive battery cables, I thought the sensible thing to do was to cut one up [ immediately ]


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## gregski (Sep 6, 2011)

the goal is to shove one end into a more civilized Anderson connector


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## asymptonic (Oct 14, 2021)

Flatness is a possibility, but possibly cost saving as well. Doubling up on a smaller diameter conductor that's more easily sourced or cheaper still results in enough room for the electrons to run.


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## remy_martian (Feb 4, 2019)

Looks like an iPhone 17 USB charge connector 😂


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## remy_martian (Feb 4, 2019)

gregski said:


> View attachment 125921
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Looks like it bought them a few mm in the stacking height of the modules and in the case height.

Compare the height of the single fatty-cable connector vs the doubled sideways one.


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## gregski (Sep 6, 2011)

equipped with only the finest tools, I decided to take a deeper dive into one of the cell modules











I'm guessing the thin yellow wires with the red dots at the ends are some sort of temperature sensors?
































I'm guessing the thin yellow wires with the red dots at the ends are some sort of temperature sensors?


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## remy_martian (Feb 4, 2019)

I see you're a graduate of the Rich Rebuilds School of EV Disassembly 😂


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## gregski (Sep 6, 2011)

it was nice of these plastic pliers to show up right after I shot the last battery video, cause you know, safety third


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## remy_martian (Feb 4, 2019)

Didn't know about those. Nice!


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## gregski (Sep 6, 2011)

so after starring at the innards of one of the cell modules I came up with this summary, basically it's a 16*S*1*P* configuration, in English 16 cells connected in *S*eries so we add up all the individual cell voltages (3.66v) by connecting them (positive to negative or negative to positive it does not matter how you look at it) to get just under 60 volts, 58.56 to be exact

and 1P is just a formality as they are really a single strand in *P*arallel so we do not add up the Amp Hours aka Ah to increase the capacity (they are 26 Ah so they stay at 26 Ah, had that been 2P than we would add 26 plus 26 (by connecting them positive to positive and negative to negative) and double the capacity to 52 Ah) more on all of this later, later


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## gregski (Sep 6, 2011)

In the video below I use a *Teensy* microcontroller board with a CAN Bus transceiver to run *Tom de Bree's* specialized version of his *SimpBMS* called *BMWPhevBMS* to get a voltage reading of each of the individual 96 cells in the BMW 530e plug in hybrid battery pack.


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## remy_martian (Feb 4, 2019)

That plastic Harbor Fright tarp is a massive source of electrical charge that can damage electronics...


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

gregski said:


> so after starring at the innards of one of the cell modules I came up with this summary, basically it's a 16*S*1*P* configuration...


Yep.
Wondering what the cells were I did a bit of searching and stumbled across the BMW Canada listing for the 26 Ah modules as replacement parts: $1,362.94 CAD each. The later 34 Ah modules are $1,795 CAD each. Ouch.

A listing for a digital model of the cell itself provides some details; those connections in the photo look like they are welded down onto the top of prismatic cells, and that appears to be true (the digital model listing shows the cut-off remains a interconnect strip still welded to the cell). The cell specs of 734 W (continuous) and 988 W (peak) imply whole pack capabilities of 70.5 kW (continuous) and 94.8 kW (peak).


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

remy_martian said:


> That plastic Harbor Fright tarp is a massive source of electrical charge that can damage electronics...


Anti-static mats for work surfaces tend to be pretty small - any suggestions for something scaled to this case? Perhaps bond the battery case to a mat holding the other components?


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## remy_martian (Feb 4, 2019)

Nothing at all is better than using materials that generate high amounts of charge...that tarp material is the next best thing to cat fur rubbing on your hair 😂


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## gregski (Sep 6, 2011)

so I recently saw this eBay listing for individual BMW 330e, 530e, 740e, and X5 battery packs (yes they are all the same*), though expensive, it is nice to see them get some recognition, you know like them Tesla Leafs and such what not

* they are all the same provided you get them from the same generation as there is at least two generations of these packs, more on this .... way later!


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

gregski said:


> so I recently saw this eBay listing for individual BMW 330e, 530e, 740e, and X5 battery packs (yes they are all the same*), though expensive, it is nice to see them get some recognition, you know like them Tesla Leafs and such what not
> 
> * they are all the same provided you get them from the same generation as there is at least two generations of these packs, more on this .... way later!


The *modules *are likely the same; the *packs *(six modules in a case, forming the complete battery) are specific to the vehicle model.


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## remy_martian (Feb 4, 2019)

Mixing and matching "packs" [modules] is risky unless you know their capacity.

The seller clearly doesn't understand that modules are worth a lot less than a pack unless the seller puts in the effort to (these are priced at Tesla levels) characterize the module. The hybrid pack, similarly is worth a lot less if someone needs to assemble a pack (@gregski) from more modules than are in a pack.

The buyer (@gregski seems to be waltzing down this garden path) runs the risk of buying a lot of mismatched boat anchors (and 11/32 plywood 😂 ) if they build a pack out of these individual modules, or has to find another sucker for those boat anchors on eBay...


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## gregski (Sep 6, 2011)

Ah Yeah! The Crimpulator 3000 is here! not bad for $32 bones on AMAZON


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## gregski (Sep 6, 2011)

and so we got to work on my test battery cables, I decided to add a little color coding to the two solid orange main leads, first some black heat shrink tubing went on both ends of the negative cable

for this I needed a bunch of yellow tools


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## remy_martian (Feb 4, 2019)

For those eating a bag of popcorn at home, the abrasion shield stays loose on the outside of the cable/heatshrink or it doesn't do its job well.


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## gregski (Sep 6, 2011)

and here is what the six cell modules look like all connected just the way they were inside the pack

Note the short orange wire on the far right, that's was the original main Positive lead that came off of Cell Module # 6, I decided to replace it with the same orange wire that runs from Cell Module # 1 on the left (that is what the original looked like) so now both leads match

One lead was originally shorter than the other. BMW did that because the leads ran to the Safety Box which was located on the right side of the battery pack closer to Cell Module # 6


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## gregski (Sep 6, 2011)

think positive


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## gregski (Sep 6, 2011)

and here is the completed test DC wire harness with an Anderson SB120 connector in red for testing charging, I believe this one is rated for 120 amps and the max we can flow through it with the Tesla charger is only 45 amps


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## gregski (Sep 6, 2011)

i heart this battery pack


[what? .... too soon!]


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## remy_martian (Feb 4, 2019)

You should Andersen connector the midpoint of the string so you don't have a hot 360V battery being moved around


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## gregski (Sep 6, 2011)

Cell Module Tetris Video now up


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## gregski (Sep 6, 2011)

here is the BMW 530e battery pack hooked up to a Tesla Model S Gen 2 onboard charger for some test charging

YES, the wife INSISTED I do this in the comfort of our fine dinning room, so who was I to refuse her wishes


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## Gregs-Nemesis (Nov 7, 2021)

you're welcome


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## gregski (Sep 6, 2011)

this is the OEM BMW 530e *Battery Management electronics SME*? aka Master BMS module

Part # 7536514-09 (maybe ?)


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## gregski (Sep 6, 2011)

and these are the SP06 battery pack six BMS slave modules, numberized and layed out(in as installed(ish) formation

Part # 8482940-02


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## gregski (Sep 6, 2011)

Free Range 2018 BMW 530e *Battery Management electronics SME* aka Battery Management System BMS


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## gregski (Sep 6, 2011)

spit ballin' some battery pack formations

this is the Upside Down Cake design













just a look from the other side to show how the cell modules are connected












then we stack the second layer on top, this one right side up, planning on using the T aluminum and L aluminum brackets in between the six modules


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## gregski (Sep 6, 2011)

so I'm just one cable short to link them all although I show two short leads extra here, I am using the #6 main positive lead as one of the links (to join modules 2 and 3)


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## remy_martian (Feb 4, 2019)

Have @Gregs-Nemesis go fetch those Beemer cooling plates for you before you achieve critical mass while charging that spitball layout.

It would be nice if you gave everybody an idea where all this Lego playtime is going wrt the 72 pickup truck.


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## gregski (Sep 6, 2011)

Riveting video on BMS wire harness extraction!


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## joekitch (Sep 13, 2013)

Is there any indication that these would make for pretty high power density modules for high horsepower applications? 

This could be a way cheaper and more accessible alternative than the 60.8v LG chem bricks that ev west stopped selling in that case.

Also I imagine it's better to bite the bullet and just use an external BMS like Orion or aem ev rather than trying to make bmw proprietary BMS code/hardware do what you want


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## joekitch (Sep 13, 2013)

Also did you happen to get some dimensions at some point? I'm wondering what the kWh per cubic inch values look like.

It seems like, from wrecking yards on car-part, it's about $1500 for a pack usually, and those are the 9.1kwh max packs, which puts it at about $165 per kWh, Which puts you at $6600 for a 40kwh total, 32kwh usable pack, made of 26 modules which is quite a few unfortunately.

Given the weight of a full module is 27.7 lbs, and the capacity is 1.5 per module, that's about 18.5 lbs per kWh, which is unfortunately worse than the LG chem bricks ( about 14.5 lbs/kWh) and of course Tesla modules (10.4 lbs/kWh)

So depending on the max discharge rate, these end up being a somewhat more economical alternative to the LG chem bricks, since those are almost impossible to find now by comparison. You pay for that economy and availability with a lot of extra modules you have you fit around....

Hence why I ask..... What are the dimensions?


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

The weight and proportions of the modules look roughly like the typical VDA 355 standard module. Are they 355 mm x 151 mm x 108 mm (14" x 6.1" x 4.25")?


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## gregski (Sep 6, 2011)

joekitch said:


> Also I imagine it's better to bite the bullet and just use an external BMS like Orion or aem ev rather than trying to make bmw proprietary BMS code/hardware do what you want


Tom de Bree has already developed a version of his SimpBMS called *BMWPhevBMS* available for download on his GitHub

this is his Teensy based expansion board, the beauty of his design is that SimpBMS works with the OEM slave boards.


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## gregski (Sep 6, 2011)

in this video I talk about why I chose the Tesla Model S Gen 2 onboard charger to charge these batteries with


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## remy_martian (Feb 4, 2019)

Why are you double posting material?


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## gregski (Sep 6, 2011)

I went after the Safety Box next


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## gregski (Sep 6, 2011)

and here's what lurks inside













after removing the green circuit board


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## remy_martian (Feb 4, 2019)

What are the two contactors that they use (not the resistor relay)? Can you get markings/label shots of them?

What's the precharge resistor value?

thanks


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## remy_martian (Feb 4, 2019)

Good job on the "safety box" teardown video (I have a time machine...)

Those contactors are likely useless for your truck. Only rated at 120A...seem to be put zere by ze Germans to protect zat expensive 350A fuse 😂

Getting an ohm meter on that resistor will tell you how useful it is for precharging your inverter.

I didn't catch the part number of the precharge relay.


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## gregski (Sep 6, 2011)

so yeah I blew it all up to smitherenes and now feel way more comfortable understanding what the he11 is going on inside this black box, and here to share












both the Panasonic "positive" and "negative" contactors appear to be identical Part # *AEV140125 M25*


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## gregski (Sep 6, 2011)

the BMW 530e Safety Box internal low voltage wire harness










the BMW 530e Safety Box internal high voltage wire harness (orange wires)












this is the OEM current shunt, aka current sensor, it does not appear to be removable from the green logic board











how it looks from underneath


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## gregski (Sep 6, 2011)

so lets take a look at the negative circuit path from the battery Cell Module # 1 main negative lead into and through this black box























sorry the orientation below is upside down (adding to the confusion I'm sure)


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## gregski (Sep 6, 2011)

here I isolate only the components needed to complete the negative "circuit" through this Safety Box

































close up of the negative contactor, the stud sticking up is where the current shunt mounts to to bridge that gap over this contactor in the pics above


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## remy_martian (Feb 4, 2019)

Your latest video on solenoids, contactors, and relays is complete nonsense


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## gregski (Sep 6, 2011)

and here is the internal positive circuit


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## gregski (Sep 6, 2011)

a step by step video of the tear down process


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## gregski (Sep 6, 2011)

here is probably the most important circuit in the entire Safety Box the pre-charge circuit, it tickles the capacitor inside the inverter with gentle current before shooting all of it down it's throat, this keeps the capacitor from blowing up

it consists of a relay and a resistor and utilizes the same fuse as the positive contactor in the positive circuit mentioned above












the white bar of soap looking block is a 15 ohm resistor


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## remy_martian (Feb 4, 2019)

The precharge circuit does not utilize the fuse, it is part of it. The actual fuse in the circuit is actually one of the orange wires, the resistor, or the relay, which seems reckless...

The precharge resistor, orange wires, and relay is, however, protected by inference by that circuit board you plan to discard because it simply opens the relay when a fault is detected in the circuit, which includes those capacitors the "safety box" is determined not to blow up....allegedly. Shows how ignorance and strict reliance on Google can set your car or truck ablaze by tossing out a critical circuit element.

The Panasonic relay AEC51012 is, from what I can tell, a 400V 5A relay, which means the precharge resistor must be at least 80 ohms. It's allegedly 15 ohms, which means a peak inrush current of 26 amps into the inverter and through the relay...


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## remy_martian (Feb 4, 2019)

Correction. The Arrow site as indexed is incorrect:










The relay is 10A, which make the min resistor size 40ohms.

Found the datasheet. Contacts are rated for 30 seconds at 30A. Again, the board planned on being thrown out will time the charge/discharge cycles of the precharge to ensure the relay specs are not exceeded, since the 15 ohm relay will peak out at 26A. This is an abuse scenario, not expected operation that may need oversight by the controller.


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## gregski (Sep 6, 2011)

the BGR30TQY high power wire wound glass core ceramic resistor excellent for inrush current is a 30 watt resistor 15*Ω* J 

BGR = wire wound glass core

30 = 30 watts


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## gregski (Sep 6, 2011)

found this little gem hidden inside of one of Damien's videos


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## remy_martian (Feb 4, 2019)

All of Damien's videos are gems. The most underappreciated channel on Youtube, though it's his fault for telling people not to comment and to unsubscribe 😉


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## joekitch (Sep 13, 2013)

Gonna ask some basic questions because it's probably scattered throughout the thread but;

What's the mass of the battery pack overall? And the mass of each module individually?

These guys are cooled by a cooling plate I assume as I don't see coolant routing pipes going into each module

What's the C rating on these? Could they push some gnarly instantaneous amps?


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## gregski (Sep 6, 2011)

joekitch said:


> Gonna ask some basic questions because it's probably scattered throughout the thread but;
> 
> What's the mass of the battery pack overall? And the mass of each module individually?
> 
> ...


I think each cell module weighs roughly 27 pounds and there's six of them, see if this video answers some of your questions


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## remy_martian (Feb 4, 2019)

There's a refrigeration evaporator plate that sits under each battery module in ze original German implementation. 

The BMW modules are conductively cooled to a chill plate, in other words. 

Our cowboy here deleted them in his C10 build...because, in his vehicle use model, driving like a girl is acceptable....and that's perfectly fine. Gregski's also smart enough not to do regen...he has nowhere to dump the heat.

You can push anything to "gnarly amps"...how long do you want it to last? If your magic battery was available, we wouldn't be burning jet fuel. We're at least 5 years away from it.


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## joekitch (Sep 13, 2013)

A fellow over on the open inverter forums brought up a good point;
The i3 version of these modules was rated for 98kw
So four parallel strings of six of these should be good for at least 400kw, probably more because these are newer cells


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## remy_martian (Feb 4, 2019)

I think you/he might be confusing Ah with kWh:









BMW i3 | 44V | 94Ah Module - Re-rated Capacity: 3933Wh


BMW i3 | 44V | 94Ah - Year: 2018 - Miles: 2000 Original Capacity: 4140Wh - Nominal voltage: 44.4V




www.secondlife-evbatteries.com







https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0480/6521/6669/files/BMW_Samsung_SDI_94Ah_Datasheet.pdf



The cells are rated at 3C for 30 sec. A refrigeration loop would obviously extend that time. Seems like a 4C limit to discharge.

meh


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## gregski (Sep 6, 2011)

joekitch said:


> A fellow over on the open inverter forums brought up a good point;
> The i3 version of these modules was rated for 98kw
> So four parallel strings of six of these should be good for at least 400kw, probably more because these are newer cells


thanky you, however the i3 is an electric vehicle where as the 530e is a hybrid so there are substantial cost differences in the battery packs


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## Mikemike (5 mo ago)

Hi, very interesting thread. I have bought these moduelse myselve
for an solar charge system, powering my electric Renaul ZOE. I live in Sweden.
Does anyone know if the stock BMW-BMS is balancing the moduels given that they are supplied with 5v, or do they need beeing told to start balancing from the CAN-bus?
I've just ordered an teensy to start check voltages.


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## UglyCarFan (8 mo ago)

I was going to ask Gregski a similar question. Are you certain the black boxes you are calling a BMS are a management system, or are they a balancing board, controlled by another computer elsewhere? Many of the modules I've purchased "report" to another, separate unit. It would seem that since it is a self contained system, that they would be an actual BMS. 

These same basic modules have been around for a considerable time, and some of them have regular threaded posts for connections. They are certainly not the lightest thing around, but are very well constructed, and tough. 

I just missed out on buying a local pack of these 530's. For what it is worth, I enjoy watching your videos, and usually find something in them that is interesting enough to warrant further study.


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## Mikemike (5 mo ago)

UglyCarFan said:


> I was going to ask Gregski a similar question. Are you certain the black boxes you are calling a BMS are a management system, or are they a balancing board, controlled by another computer elsewhere? Many of the modules I've purchased "report" to another, separate unit. It would seem that since it is a self contained system, that they would be an actual BMS.
> 
> These same basic modules have been around for a considerable time, and some of them have regular threaded posts for connections. They are certainly not the lightest thing around, but are very well constructed, and tough.
> 
> I just missed out on buying a local pack of these 530's. For what it is worth, I enjoy watching your videos, and usually find something in them that is interesting enough to warrant further study.


The black box is as you say a balance board. This would be enough for me, I just would be happy if it was working since it is already there and ""plugged in".


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## UglyCarFan (8 mo ago)

Mikemike: yeah, that is the problem. I have one extreme example of that, with a massive ESS cabinet with 13 racks trays, 26 modules, one BMS/Balancing board per tray, for 16s. All of the BMS wire looms in place, thermistors, Gigavacs, Canbus, Modbus, power supply, etc in a 14th tray. But no controlling "brain board". That sucks.


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## edvartsemersons (3 mo ago)

Hi guys, 
Do you have any ideas where to get terminal connection for these Samsung SDI 16s BMW modules?OEM price is not acceptable, would love to buy just cable shoe type of solution to have power connection.


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## gregski (Sep 6, 2011)

edvartsemersons said:


> Hi guys,
> Do you have any ideas where to get terminal connection for these Samsung SDI 16s BMW modules?OEM price is not acceptable, would love to buy just cable shoe type of solution to have power connection.


are you talking about the orange ones?


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## gregski (Sep 6, 2011)

looks like Shane from Performance EV scored the bigger sister to this battery pack the 12 kWh one, let's check out the unboxing


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