# My Electro-Willys needs help!



## m38mike (Dec 27, 2008)

I'm new to this site, just discovered it Christmas day. I've been interested in EV's for a while and when diesel hit $5/g I decided to get invested in an EV. I rebuild old Willys Jeeps as a hobby, so I found one that had all the right things wrong with it, and started the conversion process. 

I've been working with a shop near my home that converted ICE cars to all electric. Unfortunately the 3 owners each had different ideas and the company folded. So now I've got a complete conversion that performs like a golf cart. I went to them with these requirements. I have a 35 mile daily commute - round trip - so I wanted to be able to drive 40-50 miles on one charge. I don't have the option of charging it at work. Most of that drive is 2-lane 55mph highway. I don't want to be a speed-bump on that road. 

Here's what is in the 1952 Willys Jeep right now:
Netgain WarP-11 motor
Kelly controller - KDH14650B
18 GC8 Napa 8v batteries
Zivan PFC1500 charger
500 amp gauge

I understand the basic concepts of how all this should work, but I'm not very smart - technically - in this stuff. So I'm posting this to see if any of you can help me with what I need to diagnose and what I might need to change to make this little jeep get up and go.

My top speed in 3rd gear is about 25mph. I'm pretty sure that the Warp-11 can push that jeep faster than that. The max reading I've seen on the amp gauge is about 110-115 amps. 

What is holding me back??? 

Mike


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## TheSGC (Nov 15, 2007)

I think your Kelly Settings need to be changed through a serial port and their software. Particularly the Current Mode and the Low Voltage Dectection, and probably a few other things. Also is your Kelly on a heatsink? 

I have a 96 Volt Civic EV using a Kelly KDH09401 and I was getting 80 AMPs max before adjusting my settings and now I get 180+ AMPs from the batteries. I set my Control Mode to Speed, all the Current/Speed Settings to 100%, the Throttle Ramp to 3 and my Low Voltage detection to 77 volts for my 96 volt system. The Low Voltage Detection (shutdown) starts at 110% of the value you set it, so most likely yours is set pretty high and the batteries sag low enough under load to activate the slowdown/shutdown.

I would suggest setting your Low Voltage to 118 volts for your 144 volt system.


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## dtbaker (Jan 5, 2008)

you might want to also check all your battery cable connections, make sure they are tight, and after a few minutes of driving make sure none are warm (indicating resistance).


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## tj4fa (May 25, 2008)

I learned how to drive on my Dad's 52 Willy's. He and my uncle pulled out the Flathead 4 and put a 327 in it. That's back when ICE/gas was popular.

I WANT TO SEE PICS DAMMIT!!


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## m38mike (Dec 27, 2008)

Thanks TheSGC, we've reset many of the parameters on the Kelly trying to get better performance, but I don't think we reset the low voltage shutdown that low. But in thinking about what you said, it makes sense that the shutdown setting may be what's cutting us down. We have a computer fan wired in to blow cool air onto the controller to keep it cool. In checking the air stream, we haven't noticed any real heat. It's been warm, but not hot.

dtbaker, thanks for the idea. Having repaired lots of very old electrical connections while rebuilding 50-60 year old Willys, that was one thing we checked regularly. At 144v if one connection is just a little loose or too dirty we'd have a big impact on what we could get from the pack. So far every connection has remained cool to touch. 

tj4fa, I'll see about getting some photos posted by this evening. It really turned out to be a nice looking set up. You'll see soon. 

m38mike


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## Guest (Dec 28, 2008)

A small computer fan may not be enough after you change your parameters and begin to draw more current and for longer periods of time. My Kelly heated up to where I could not touch it within 3 miles. It is not installed at this time. We will be installing the motor and controller into a Dune Buggy for further testing soon. My Kelly is different in that it's a SepEx controller and it worked from the start. However I never installed a proper heat sink or fan. Have a look at this setup:

http://www.evalbum.com/1798




m38mike said:


> Thanks TheSGC, we've reset many of the parameters on the Kelly trying to get better performance, but I don't think we reset the low voltage shutdown that low. But in thinking about what you said, it makes sense that the shutdown setting may be what's cutting us down. We have a computer fan wired in to blow cool air onto the controller to keep it cool. In checking the air stream, we haven't noticed any real heat. It's been warm, but not hot.
> 
> dtbaker, thanks for the idea. Having repaired lots of very old electrical connections while rebuilding 50-60 year old Willys, that was one thing we checked regularly. At 144v if one connection is just a little loose or too dirty we'd have a big impact on what we could get from the pack. So far every connection has remained cool to touch.
> 
> ...


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## tj4fa (May 25, 2008)

gottdi said:


> ...Have a look at this setup:
> 
> http://www.evalbum.com/1798


Very Nice EV!! 

Might I recommend you add a couple wind generators or maybe a magnet motor to get some free energy out of that thing.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

To add to what others have said it sounds as if the controller is really holding you back. Many people have had trouble getting a controller to work well with the Warp11. Only the unavailable Zilla seems to be reliable with them but hopefully you can get your Kelly to play nice.


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## m38mike (Dec 27, 2008)

Here are a few photos of my EV so far. 








This photo barely shows the 10 battery rack in the back seat area. Each cable was custom built for the specific location where it's used. The weight load is well balanced from front to back, and still within the GVW capacity for this 56 year old Jeep. When it's ready to commute, it'll have a full hard top covering the seats and rear rack in winter, this is the summer setup.










This shows the 8 battery front rack above the motor. This was the original 8 inch motor that was installed. When the performance failed to live up to our expectations, we swapped this one out for a WarP-11. Up to now, there has been no appreciable improvement. Knowing what a WarP-11 has powered, that tells me that we have a choke point somewhere else in the system. 










We put all of the controls under the driver's seat where the gas tank used to be. Lots of room, good ventilation, protection from the weather, and easy access for adjustments. The contoller is inside the green ammo can on the left of the charger. We added a 100cfm fan to the top of the ammo can to move air around the controller. After reading about heat sinks on this site, I may add one of them too. 










This shows the original 8 inch motor under the fron battery rack. The rack bolts to the frame and can be removed as a complete unit in less than 10 minutes. We did it a couple times when replacing motors or making other adjustments. You can see the front drive shaft and differential. We kept the 4x4 because of the snow we get here in this Colorado valley. 

The motor shaft is bolted to an adapter plate that slips over the original transmission shaft. No clutch, so it's direct to the transmission.


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## tj4fa (May 25, 2008)

Sweet...

A little GIJoeJeep!! 










_WAY COOL!! _


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## m38mike (Dec 27, 2008)

gottdi, 
yea contoller temp is something we'll be watching very closely. The 100 cfm muffin fan has done a good job cooling it so far, but I think a heat sink to increas surface area will be a good future add on. I like the setup you linked. Very neat work.

JRP3,
It sounds like the controller IS my choke point. We're going to try adjusting the settings again to see if that helps. I wish I could get my hands on a Zilla. I've heard good things about them. In the mean time, one of the former owners of the conversion shop that I was working with is also an EE, and would like to try building a controller for me. He has lots of parts from a Viper conversion they started but never finished before the company broke up. (poor Viper!) He would like to start building controllers commercially similar to the Zilla, but he said a bit more robust. He likes the jeep as a test bed since everything is so easy to get to. 

tj4fa,
yup, it's a 52 M38. Made by Willys for the Army during the Korean war. I've got 4 of them in different stages of rebuilt. I like it for the electric conversion because it is so simple mechanically. Everything is easy to get to, and it has a very strong frame to carry the extra weight. The major drawback to it is the aerodynamics. It has all the grace and curvature of a brick! 

Mike


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## WSJ (Sep 18, 2008)

Great job Mike!

Wayne

http://public.fotki.com/WAYNEWANG/electric-car-beetle-ev-/
http://www.evalbum.com/1798


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## m38mike (Dec 27, 2008)

Well, we've been playing with and adjusting the Kelly GDHB controller for 2 weeks now, and we still are not passing the amperage we should be. We did reset the timing on the WarP11 to zero, and that made a big difference in our performance, for the good. 

With all the possible combinations in the Kelly GDHB 14650 controller I'm not sure what we need to do next. 

The batteries we have are Deka GC8V. 18 - 8v wet cell golf car batts for 144v. The 20 AH rate on them is 165. The minutes discharged at 75 amps is 85 minutes. The Deka web site didn't list a 6 AH rate for these batteries. Should I be able to pull 300 amps for 30 minutes out of these batteries???


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## dtbaker (Jan 5, 2008)

m38mike said:


> Should I be able to pull 300 amps for 30 minutes out of these batteries???


I doubt it.... 

You'll have to find curves from the battery manuf, but when you start pulling big amps like that you will run into Peukerts Law pretty quick with Lead, then voltage sag, with 'performance loss'.

A pretty good explanation of this is at
http://www.caravanandmotorhomebooks.com/articles/peukerts_law.htm

As a rough number I would guess you will be unlikely to pull more than 100 or so amps for any 'sustained' length of time from typical Lead ...


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

I'm sort of surprised the neutral timing made an improvement, exactly how so? I think you'd get more torque out of it by retarding the timing but I also think you're risking arcing in the motor which could damage it if you're running 144 volts. Also, do you really draw 300 amps for 30 minutes? That seems like a lot.


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## WSJ (Sep 18, 2008)

Battery life is shortened as the average current increases.
An 8v 165 AH golf cart battery should not exceed 165 amps 
for 5 seconds and 300 amps for 2.75 seconds.

Wayne

http://public.fotki.com/WAYNEWANG/electric-car-beetle-ev-/
http://www.evalbum.com/1798


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## m38mike (Dec 27, 2008)

I think i've been thinking about the amperage available from my batteries all wrong. The batteries have a 20 AH rating of 165. That means that over 20 hours, each one could provide 8.25 AH on average per hour, for a total of 165 A. So cumulatively, 18 batteries discharging at this rate could provide 148.5 Amps per hour for 20 hours. Have I got that right? 

If it is right, that means I should be able to draw perhaps twice as many amps for perhaps one quarter of the time. I guess that would depend on the power curves for this type of battery. And that's where Peukert's law comes into effect. The faster i draw energy, the less potential energy there is in each battery. So if I used the energy in the pack lightly over 20 hours I could get about 2,970A total. If I use the energy over one hour I may only get 1,000A because of Peukert's law. Does that sound right? 

By resetting the motor timing to zero I think we did get much more torque out of it. I know that with my current gearing, if the vehicle is going 55mph then the motor is spinning at 3,200rpm. I guess we need to find out what the optimum advance setting is for some point in between 0 and 3,200 rpm. And to find out if the Warp11 can sustain 3,200 rpm without burning out. And can my battery pack provide the energy to keep the motor spinning that fast if I'm going up a 2-3% grade for 2 miles.


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## m38mike (Dec 27, 2008)

Yesterday I talked with one of the guys at Netgain about my WarP11 motor. On setting the timing, they said there are 3 possible settings: advance ccw; neutral; and advance cw (clockwise). The shop owner I'm working with on this conversion told me that they had reset the timing to neutral. The Netgain tech said that was a sure way to burn up the motor. He added that in my application it needed to be advance ccw. I talked with the shop mechanic doing the work and it turns out they had set the motor to neutral and it ran poorly so they set it back to advance ccw and it ran much better. I hope they didn't damage the motor when it was set back to neutral.

The tech also advised me to change brand on my controller. We've been struggling with the Kelly to get anything but mediocre performance. I think it's time for a change. The tech also mentioned that Zillas are supposed to start production again by this summer. I don't know if I need a Zilla for my application but that sounds like good news. 

I'm thinking about buying a Logisystem 550 controller. based on the motor power curves, I'll need about 175 amps to spin the motor at 3200 rpm to keep the jeep at 55 mph. *Will a Logisystem 550 give me this?*


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## WSJ (Sep 18, 2008)

When batteries are connected in parallel, the capacity of each battery is additive. With 18 batteries in parallel your pack would provide 148.5 Amps per hour for 20 hours at 8 Volts or 1164 kWh at 77° F. When batteries are connected in series, the capacity of each battery is not additive, because the current flows through each battery. With 18 batteries in series your pack would provide 8.25 Amps per hour for 20 hours at 144 Volts or 1164 kWh at 77° F.

The capacity of the US BATTERY, US 8V GC is 94 AH @ 75 A @ 77° F, various discharge rates are specified at the following link;
http://www.usbattery.com/usb_images/USB%20Capacity%20Chart.pdf

The LINK-10 displays battery pack Voltage, Current, AH or kWh and % Charge Remaining. It’s a must have instrument in an EV.
http://www.evalbum.com/tech/e-mtrpdf.pdf

I have a GE motor which takes about 75 A of battery current at 55 MPH. Have you taken some battery current measurements at various speeds?


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## dtbaker (Jan 5, 2008)

m38mike said:


> I'll need about 175 amps to spin the motor at 3200 rpm to keep the jeep at 55 mph. *Will a Logisystem 550 give me this?*


without Mozilla, it seems the next best bulletproof controller may well be the Curtis line.


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## m38mike (Dec 27, 2008)

The Saga continues.







the shop has been promising to change out the controller, but nothing has been done. They did do some reprogramming, and that made a notable improvement in performance. Pete, the shop owner and his head mechanic are both going off to Florida to work with a conversion shop down there for a month, so I decided it's time for E-W to come home. I figured I'd do some controller programming to see if I could make a difference. I also plan to install the rest of the 12v wiring and lighting, and add the hard top to it. 

Saturday the weather was really nice, for Febuary, so my son and I decided to take E-W out for some testing. We wanted to see how far we could get on one charge of the battery pack, and we would record the watts used and the % charge of the pack at regular intervals. We have a gravel road in our neighborhood that runs in a circle that's about 2.5 miles around. That way we would not have far to walk if anything failed completely. That was good thinking, because about 7 miles into our test run, the spline adaptor that connects the motor to the input shaft of the transmission failed. It just broke. So we walked home, got the tow bar and a pickup, and towed E-W home. 

I talked with Pete, and we agreed that he would have a machine shop build an adapter from the motor to a flywheel so we can put the clutch back into operation. Now I need to get another clutch disc since we cut up the only one I had to make the spline adapter that just broke. 

Pete also had a Logisystem 1000w controller in his shop that had fried. Since Logisystem is currently rebuilding their controllers if you have one that failed, we decided to send this one in. So Pete is sending that one in to get it rebuilt, and we will try it in the jeep when it comes back. This is the type of controller that is recommended by Netgain, the outfit that sells the Warp11 electric motor that I have.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

How was the adapter made and where did it fail? Do you have pictures of it?


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## m38mike (Dec 27, 2008)

The adapter was made in their shop by taking a sleeve that fit on the keyed shaft of the motor and welding that inside a pipe. Then on the other end they welded in the center out of a clutch plate that fit over the splines of the transmission input shaft. We haven't pulled the front battery pack and the motor yet to take a look. I'll post photos when we do. It's been too dang cold (-5'F) to do much in the shop. 

I don't think this setup was durable enough to last long. Even minor flexing or vibration would break the welds, or the pipe. I think by making an adapter that fits the motor shaft and bolts to the flywheel so we can put the clutch back it, we'll be much better able to make it work for the long term.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Yeah that doesn't sound exact enough to hold up over time. You might want to take a look at my thread looking for coupler ideas, I'm still not sure what I'm going to use.
http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showthread.php/coupler-ideasi-27260.html


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## m38mike (Dec 27, 2008)

I really like the look of that 4-bolt coupler. I wish Pete's shop had made one like that, I'd be testing instead of waiting on a rebuild. I wonder if you could make one like that with a flat plate in the middle between the keyed collar and the splined collar? That would solve the problem of a set screw coming loose and both collars migrating onto the splined shaft. Since there is always a small gap between the shafts, a plate in that space would keep the collars nicely separated and on the correct shaft. Since it would spin along with the shafts, there would be no wear from a spinning shaft. 

I think our course of action is to attach the flywheel onto the motor shaft collar and put the clutch, pressure plate, and throwout bearing back into service. With the old transmission I have in the Jeep, It's only synchro'd in 2nd and 3rd, and not very well at that. I think the tranny will shift better if I have a clutch instead of direct drive. That rugged 1940's technology doesn't serve me well for direct drive. Besides, I'm used to using the clutch.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

m38mike said:


> I wonder if you could make one like that with a flat plate in the middle between the keyed collar and the splined collar? That would solve the problem of a set screw coming loose and both collars migrating onto the splined shaft. Since there is always a small gap between the shafts, a plate in that space would keep the collars nicely separated and on the correct shaft. Since it would spin along with the shafts, there would be no wear from a spinning shaft.


 Someone suggested the same thing and I'm planning on doing just that.


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## m38mike (Dec 27, 2008)

We took the jeep apart today. Here's a photo of the motor being lifted out. Take a close look at the output shaft. Notice anything unusual? IT ISN"T THERE!!











When we pulled the motor out we looked on the input shaft of the transmission and we found the motor-to-transmission adapter still on the transmission input shaft. Here's a closeup photo of the business end of the motor and the motor end of the adapter.










That shaft is about 1 inch diameter and made of some pretty strong steel. I always knew that Willys were tough machines, but to be able to bust a drive shaft like this with no apparent damage to the original jeep parts was pretty amazing to see. I would never have thought this was possible. The piece of shaft sticking out of the adapter is how deep into the motor the break was. It was just sheared off. Considering that at the time of the break I was driving about 20 mph on level ground, I guess I'd think that there must have been a flaw in the shaft. I'm not sure what else could have broken the shaft like that. 

Any theories about what could have contributed to this??


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Maybe misalignment from the beginning which eventually caused the shaft to break? Though I'd think the coupler would go first, so maybe a flaw in the shaft makes more sense. That's a strange one for sure.


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## tj4fa (May 25, 2008)

Wow 

Sorry about your little GIJoeJeep.

Considering you were driving 20MPH on flat ground I'd have to go along with the shaft defect. Possibly some slag was in the shaft metal from the furnace and weakend the steel.

Guys that drag race slamming mega-current into their motors doing burnouts/holeshots would be more likely candidates of something like that happening.

It will be interesting to see if the company that manufactured that motor will do the right thing and stand behind their name on that.

Let us know what happens...


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## Guest (Feb 19, 2009)

Too much torque in a low gear too many times caused the shaft to weaken and then bust. At the moment of the break was just the last gasp the shaft had. The damage occurred before the break. I had CV joint bolts come loose on my Beetle and one day it just gave up the ghost while going about 5 mph slowly from a stop sign. The problem was not at that moment but long before and it just got worse until there was just two bolts partly holding the shaft in place and with the torque of the diesel it just twisted off and down came the shaft. I was lucky in that the bolts came out and I only had to replace the bolts and I was back in business. That Jeep just has too low of gearing and you must be very careful because that motor has full on torque right from the start. Low speed and easy does not mean no torque acting against that shaft. Over time it killed it. Not the day it actually busted. That is what happened and it is not the fault of the motor. 

I'd say with that Jeep you'd need to always start in 3rd or above. First and second are slow and low gears for pulling with an engine not a high torque motor.


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

JRP3 said:


> Maybe misalignment from the beginning which eventually caused the shaft to break?


Hi mike.

Sorry about the failure. My first guess would be a misalignment. A metallurgist would probably be able to tell right off. Did you dial indicate everything upon installation? You need to be concentric and parallel/perpendicular and on centers all within a few .001 inch. Eyeballing an installation like this just doesn't cut it.

As for repair. Someone good at his craft can replace the shaft. Jim Husted at hitorqueelectric can do it. Otherwise, it's a new armature. In my mind, repair of the broken shaft is not an option.

Too bad 

major


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

gottdi said:


> I'd say with that Jeep you'd need to always start in 3rd or above.


Hi gottdi,

Isn't the case just the opposite of what you say? The lower gear (higher numerical ratio) reflects a lower torque load to the motor. Let's say in first gear, the overall ratio, motor to wheel is 9 to 1. And in third gear, it is 5 to 1. The vehicle is on a grade and needs 600 lb.ft. at the wheel to move. In first gear, that would take 66.6 lb.ft. at the motor shaft. In third gear, it takes 120 lb.ft. at the motor shaft. Follow me?

major


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Yeah, I was thinking the same thing, that gottdi had it backwards.


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## Guest (Feb 20, 2009)

JRP3 said:


> Yeah, I was thinking the same thing, that gottdi had it backwards.


Not really. I did get my terms reversed. High ratio gearing works with ICE's because the ICE has little torque at low speeds and needs the torque multiplied. When using the electric you don't need that torque multiplied and when you couple a gear set that multiplies that torque with a massive torque at low speeds you further multiply that torque and put undue stress on the part. With a motor you need less torque at the gear. The Jeep or old Trucks have serious high ratio torque multiplying gears in first and second. It takes advantage of the low torque ICE. If you are using low gear/high ratio all the time while starting you are going to stress something. Most are good enough to not have a problem but Jeeps and older trucks have the problem. Just don't tromp it in that gear. You'd most likely not know or feel that anything was wrong either because of the low speeds during high stress. Remember it takes time but it will give. These motor shafts were not meant to be coupled to motor vehicle transmissions nor were they meant for use with high ratio gears. I rarlely use 1st in my Ghia any more because of the high stress. I think I may have explained it better here. My 70 VW Single Cab had a very low first gear. Top speed of 12 mph but could pull the house down. Now couple that with a high torque electric motor and you have high stress.


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## Guest (Feb 20, 2009)

major said:


> Hi gottdi,
> 
> Isn't the case just the opposite of what you say? The lower gear (higher numerical ratio) reflects a lower torque load to the motor. Let's say in first gear, the overall ratio, motor to wheel is 9 to 1. And in third gear, it is 5 to 1. The vehicle is on a grade and needs 600 lb.ft. at the wheel to move. In first gear, that would take 66.6 lb.ft. at the motor shaft. In third gear, it takes 120 lb.ft. at the motor shaft. Follow me?
> 
> major


You need 600 lb ft and use the gear to multiply the 66 lb ft the ICE can produce at low speeds. The problem is that the electric motor is not 66 lb ft at low speeds. It may be like 200 so that then becomes what after you run it through the gears at 9:1. Ouch. That is a lot of torque and it will affect the shaft. That is why you can launch easy in 3rd. Stay in 3rd or higher. My Ghia does require me to start in 2nd. I can pass 1st easy. If I use 1st I just blip the controller then shift to 2nd. 

Pete


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

You've still got it wrong. Gearing lower, numerically higher, does not increase the torque at the motor shaft, that's before the gearing, it increases the torque after the gearing.


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## Guest (Feb 20, 2009)

So why is it that 1st is almost never used? Too high of torque for that gear. So what happens when you take 200 lb ft and put it into a 9:1 ratio gear? Put that with a heavy car and you try to move that weight too fast and it does stress the shaft. As does using a 2:1 and low torque. That puts too much stress too. Lugging puts stress on the shaft too. Couple an electric motor with a diesel transmission and you have a good match. That transmission is better matched to the high torque of the diesel. That is what you need to do for best performance.

I will go do some more homework then. That I can do.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

1st is almost never used in an EV because you don't need the torque multiplication at the rear wheels and it's a waste of time winding out the motor in first. Think of it this way, a gear reduction works like a lever. Take a long stick and use a rock as a fulcrum, you can move more weight if you pull on the long end of the stick and have the weight on the short end. Reverse it and you have to work harder. Same thing with low gearing, the motor doesn't have to work as hard, but if you reverse it and start out in a higher gear the motor has to work harder. Same thing in an ICE, or a bicycle, try starting in 3rd gear on a hill, it's harder on you, (the motor), than in first.


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## Guest (Feb 20, 2009)

I got it. Thanks. Just needed to re-wrap my brain. So actually using too high of gear like 4th or 5th could twist my shaft. Got it. : )


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

gottdi said:


> The problem is that the electric motor is not 66 lb ft at low speeds. It may be like 200


Hi Pete,

It depends on how far you depress the throttle pedal. The point being that you only need 66 lb.ft., so you only press the pedal a third way down. The motor may have 200 lb.ft. at current limit, but you don't need to use all that. You can throttle less.

Unless you're one of those drivers with a digital ankle, 2 position, full up or down to the floorboard. I know a few of those guys. 

Regards,

major


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## Guest (Feb 20, 2009)

major said:


> Hi Pete,
> 
> It depends on how far you depress the throttle pedal. The point being that you only need 66 lb.ft., so you only press the pedal a third way down. The motor may have 200 lb.ft. at current limit, but you don't need to use all that. You can throttle less.
> 
> ...


You can add one more to the list. I do however try to limit that action. Our moto is: Be Fast or Be Last. Referring to 1/4 VW drag racing.


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## m38mike (Dec 27, 2008)

At this point in our look at the broken shaft problem, my money is on a defective shaft. Willys jeeps are not street rods, and their drive shafts have been know to break if too much torque is applied, like after installing a small block chevy motor. I don't drive with a lead foot, and I've been telling the shop guys that they'll be buying me a new driveline if any parts bust because they were horsing the torque too much.

After we removed the adapter sleave, I tried to move the input shaft of the tranny up and down and sideways to see if there was any wobble in it at all. Nothing. It was rock steady. 

I did not personally measure the tolerances when the shop lined up the shafts but it looked pretty well straight on, and I was wearing my glasses. The adapter sleave was made by welding a motor sleave onto a cylinder at one end and welding the center from a clutch plate onto the other end. I was told they spun it to check balance. With the adapter plate they built to match the motor to the front of the bell housing, they said they had about 1/2 inch of space between the ends of both shafts. 

The motor is a Warp11 so it's going back to Netgain for them to either repair or replace the motor. We're still working out the details, but they definitely want to see this motor.

On another note, I just sent a Logisystem 1000 controller in to get rebuilt. Jim told me he expected to get it turned around within 2 weeks. When it comes back it will replace the Kelly KDHB controller I currently have installed. I'm tired of messing with Kelly settings, and not getting any good advice from Kelly on what the best settings should be.


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

m38mike said:


> At this point in our look at the broken shaft problem, my money is on a defective shaft.
> 
> The motor is a Warp11 so it's going back to Netgain for them to either repair or replace the motor. We're still working out the details, but they definitely want to see this motor.


Hi mike,

My money would be on a defective installation. We'll see what Netgain says.



> I did not personally measure the tolerances when the shop lined up the shafts but it looked pretty well straight on, The adapter sleave was made by welding a motor sleave onto a cylinder at one end and welding the center from a clutch plate onto the other end. With the adapter plate they built to match the motor to the front of the bell housing


Your description and pictures do not lead me to believe this was a well engineered coupling system. How is the large adaptor registered to the motor face and transmission housing? The visible side in the picture is painted and does not appear to have been turned true. Are there alignment dowels? Some of the mounting holes even appear to be ovaled out with a grinder or something. Not a confidence builder. The two plates (for the motor and for the transmission) have to be exactly parallel. And flat. I don't think this is possible on a weldment without a final turn or mill cut. 



> I was told they spun it to check balance. ,


Balance and alignment are two different issues.



> After we removed the adapter sleave, I tried to move the input shaft of the tranny up and down and sideways to see if there was any wobble in it at all. Nothing. It was rock steady.


This really gets to the heart of the problem. As I understand it, there is no clutch. You have a shaft adaptor or coupler which is solid and fits to the motor shaft on one end and onto the tranny shaft on the other end. Then you take the bell housing adaptor and bolt the motor solidly to the tranny. Once everything is bolted tight, you have a rigid housing and a rigid shaft. Two bearings in the tranny and two bearings in the motor. And that is the problem. Essentially four bearings on a single shaft. If you could have gotten everything aligned dead nuts perfect, it would have worked. But even the best machinists would have trouble getting it right.

So what happens is that you end up having a bending moment on the shaft. Every revolution takes the bending moment or stress around the shaft. Tension to compression. Time and time again. So it starts to fatigue. Usually at a stress riser. Like a shoulder or undercut on the shaft. A small fatigue crack starts to form. Thousands and thousands of revolutions later, it has propagated down to the shaft center to where there is too little steel to support the force and she snaps off.

This is why they make flexible couplings. Almost all motors in industry use them when the connected load has its own bearing system. Even with the flexible coupling, an attempt is made to align the motor and load within thousandths.

If I have read your installation correctly, it was just a matter of time before failure. You really need to do something differently. Get a precision installation with a flexible coupler.

Let's see what Netgain tells you.

major


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

I'm inclined to agree with major, he mirrors my own feelings about the setup. One reason I'll be using the clutch hub and springs in my clutchless coupler.


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## m38mike (Dec 27, 2008)

Major,
what you write makes sense to me, and introduced an idea I had not considered - the fact that both shafts are rigid within their housing. I'm inclined to change my bet on the cause. The adapter was press fit onto the motor shaft, and slip fit on the tranny shaft. I can see where a small allignment deviation could lead to failure. 

We plan to get rid of the adapter and go back to a flywheel and clutch to transmit the energy from the motor to the tranny. There will be notably more tollerance for inaccurate allignment with a functioning clutch that there was with this adapter. 

To answer your question on the motor mount, it was welded - not machined. The holes each line up with the holes on the face of the bell housing. They used sholdered bolts to pull the two together so the holes would align. There are no alignment pins. The face of the bell housing was measured and they said it was perpendicular to the tranny shaft. 

I guess bottom line on this is the need for a flexible connector between motor and tranny. I think the clutch will give me this. Do you agree?


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## Harold in CR (Sep 8, 2008)

I don't post much, but, from my experience with motor trans connections on large boats, we used a flex-coupling, and HAD to be less than .020 on a face to face connection. A solid connection like you had, will flex somewhere, and, the motor shaft is softer than the trans shaft. 

I feel your conversion shop owes you a motor, not netgain. It's STILL a bummer, no matter who did what.


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

m38mike said:


> I guess bottom line on this is the need for a flexible connector between motor and tranny. I think the clutch will give me this. Do you agree?


Works for most guys. But I would still be concerned about that welded adaptor plate. If that guy that made it needed to elongate a mounting hole for a fit to the tranny bellhousing, what makes you think he was able to get the shaft centered? And I can't see the motor face or that side of the adaptor. Does that motor have a pilot? Are you registered to it? Even with the clutch, that adaptor needs to centered and parallel. Maybe, like Harold says, .020 instead of .002, but closer than what your present adaptor will give you, IMO.

Regards,

major


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## Garn (Nov 27, 2008)

M38Mike, 

I sent you an email. Please let me know if you did not receive it.


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## m38mike (Dec 27, 2008)

Garn, got your email.

I talked with Netgain this week about repairing the motor. I explained the situation and sent photos. Les sent me the Repair Authorization forms the next day. He said that they would repair/rebuild my Warp11 under warrantee since it's only 4 months old. Hooray for Netgain!!! But only on the condition that they are only dealing with me, a customer. 

But he also said they would absolutely not do business with the shop I've been working with - for reasons I will not share. I don't blame them one bit. As soon as I've gotten all that I'm going to get from this outfit, I'm cutting the strings, and not looking back. 

On another note, Jim at Logisystems said that I should be getting my rebuilt 1000A controller back from it's rebuild either late next week or the week after. I am anxious to get rid of the Kelly and get the Logisystem wired in. Logisystem is another company that will not do business anymore with this conversion shop. I am very thankfull that they are willing to work with the shop's customers without involving the shop. My appreciation goes out to Logisystem for that great customer service.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

That's amazing Netgain is willing to fix what is probably the installer's mistake. Really good service. I hope Logisystems has worked out their problems.


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## Harold in CR (Sep 8, 2008)

That certainly says a lot for Netgains Customer Service. A BIG thumbs up for Netgain.


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## tj4fa (May 25, 2008)

Harold in CR said:


> That certainly says a lot for Netgains Customer Service. A BIG thumbs up for Netgain.


Make that two...


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## m38mike (Dec 27, 2008)

*One part gone, One coming back!*!

Today we wrapped up the Warp11 and banded it to a small pallet. Then we hauled it to the UPS freight shop and started it on the journey back to Warfield. Once it's there, they will rebuild it under warrantee. 

This afternoon I called Logisystem and learned that they shipped my rebuilt 1000A controller today. That means they had it less than 2 weeks before they sent it back out to me. They said I should receive it around Thursday. I'm planning on pulling the Kelly out and putting the Logisystem in next week.


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## m38mike (Dec 27, 2008)

The motor repair took an ugly twist this past week. I found out that the shop I'm working with never paid Netgain for my motor. In fact they never paid for 8 motors they received. Netgain told me they were holding onto my motor until it was paid for. George (Netgain) and I had several conversations and he simpathized with me getting caught in the middle of this dispute. Netgain has demanded that the shop return the 7 motors they still have. If they will do that, then George will give me my motor back for repair costs. He said that the shop messed up the timing, and the way they mounted the motor lead to the shaft being broken. This was the only shaft that has ever broken on a Warp11, even in testing. 

I spent the weekend taking the cables out of the Jeep. The shop had run them inside the frame on both sides. Unfortunately they ran the battery cables on each side, not together. That created a very noticeable electromagnetic static in any nearby radios. And none of the cables had any kind of sleave or conduit to run in. With all the vibrating that jeeps do, I want them to be protected from having the jackets worn out against any metal corners, or bolts they may be in contact with. I'm considering getting some large plastic conduit to run under the frame to carry the cables. But I'll probably just use some plastic looms from the auto parts store. 

I also installed my 160v 250a breaker. I put it inside a 90 degree pull box for 2 inch conduit. It pretty well fills the pull box. But that box provides great access, and good protection for the cables that will get bolted to each end of the breaker. 









The 1/4 inch bolts go thru the box and the fender to hold everything down tightly. This next photo shows what it will look like in the final installation. The one big change I will make is to paint it green to match the jeep. This gives me a manual switch that I can use in the event of an emergency, and because it's a breaker, it will trip automatically if I get in an accident and the system is compromised. 










I bought the Heineman breaker from EVParts in WA. It didn't come with any case or cover, so I took it to my local hardware store to see what would work to protect it. I think the 2 inch conduit pull box works out really well.


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## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

a real bummer that they are holding your motor hostge on you yet has 0% to do with you. I don't think at all thats right and there goes a couple of my thumbs up to thumbs down. There are many legal recourses they can do to the other company to retrieve there money or motors with out involving you. Oh ya I forgot you approved the other company for credit terms didn't you??? So it is your fault. ( just razzing ya but thats BS IMHO) have you received a quote yet for the repairs???

Brian


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## Harold in CR (Sep 8, 2008)

Yeah, I agree with Brian. NETGAIN approved that shop to handle their products. That should make THEM have the cost of repoing their stuff, and make YOU the customer, happy. 

This will make them look the fool, and, could affect THEIR business. 

How far do you live from the shop ??? I would be there pronto, and load up one of the motors they have. 

This sux, BIG TIME.


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## m38mike (Dec 27, 2008)

I had to convince them that I'm not a front man for the shop. They know that now, but they didn't know that at first. There is $2,400 in damage not including the labor That's almost like buying a new motor. George has agreed to make me a deal, when the other 7 motors get back to Netgain. I went to the shop on Friday to actually see the 7 motors, and they were really there. In fact they were on 2 pallets. The owner said they were getting shipped back on Monday. He didn't seem the least bit embarrassed by having all those motors unpaid and his customer questioning him on his business practices. 

Netgain is really trying to work with me. Because I had taken possession of the Warp11 from the shop, Netgain will essentially sell me the motor directly, and at a good discount. Because of this deal, I'll be able to go back to the shop and refuse to pay on a large part of my outstanding bill. 

The shop owner talks a great line, but he's a real snakeoil salesman. If I knew then what I know now, I would never have started this project with the shop - I'd have done it by myself. As it is I'm redoing a lot of thier work to make this project last longer and run safer. 

On the bright side, I'm getting one helluva education out of this. Most every night I pray for more patience to see me through this project. Then the next day he throughs another twist into the project to show me how much more patience he gave me. DANG I hate when he does that!!


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## Guest (Mar 23, 2009)

m38mike said:


> I had to convince them that I'm not a front man for the shop. They know that now, but they didn't know that at first. There is $2,400 in damage not including the labor That's almost like buying a new motor. George has agreed to make me a deal, when the other 7 motors get back to Netgain. I went to the shop on Friday to actually see the 7 motors, and they were really there. In fact they were on 2 pallets. The owner said they were getting shipped back on Monday. He didn't seem the least bit embarrassed by having all those motors unpaid and his customer questioning him on his business practices.
> 
> Netgain is really trying to work with me. Because I had taken possession of the Warp11 from the shop, Netgain will essentially sell me the motor directly, and at a good discount. Because of this deal, I'll be able to go back to the shop and refuse to pay on a large part of my outstanding bill.
> 
> ...


What I have gathered is that not many people really know what they are doing when it comes to building these EV's as a business. Many have basics and that is about all. I decided to do it myself. In the end you will be doing yours too. Sorry to hear this about your motor. Hope it's resolved real fast. 

Pete : )


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## m38mike (Dec 27, 2008)

I went to the shop yesterday to see if they had shipped the 7 unpaid motors back to Netgain. They didn't. I'm going to push them every day until they get sent back. I'm looking forward to getting my motor back from Netgain. George at Netgain has been very good, and more than fair, in his dealings with me. Even if this local shop ruins the deal, I'll go to another vendor and buy another Netgain motor. 

On another note, I just bought a bunch of 3/4 inch wire looms from NAPA to cover the 1/0 cables between the battery packs, and from the controller to the motor. My old army jeep will shake and vibrate a lot, and I want the cables to be protected from having the stock jacket worn through because of the vibrations. I also bought some different colored 18 ga wire to run to the gauges and the controller fuses. The shop ran all the 18 ga wires in red. You can't tell one from another. And they didn't protect those wires either, so they will all go inside a loom as well.


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## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

The next trip to the shop to see if they sent the motors back just grab one of them off the pallet and toss it in your car, heck with a little adrenaline flowing ya might be able to grab two,, one in aech arm.LOL,, heck they are the ones who essentially owe you the new motor not Net Gain???

brian


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## tj4fa (May 25, 2008)

m38mike said:


> ...I just bought a bunch of 3/4 inch wire looms from NAPA to cover the 1/0 cables between the battery packs, and from the controller to the motor.


1/0 you say...?

I thought most people run 2/0 cables but maybe your amp load is lighter in your GIJoeJeep.


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## m38mike (Dec 27, 2008)

I got this info from the Alltrax site. 

*Wire:​*Wiring in an electric vehicle is a very important and
sometimes is overlooked during performance upgrades.
Customers who updated the car but not the wiring -
ended up with poor performance, overheating
terminals, and decreased life on the controller. Here
are some “basic guidelines” but obviously, when it
comes to wiring, err on the heavy side. Larger wire is
absolutely better than smaller wire. Rule of thumb, “If
its hot – its too small.”​*Controller (Min wire AWG), Standard Duty, Heavy Duty​*300 Amp Stock OEM – , 6AWG, 4AWG
400 Amp, 4 AWG, 4 AWG
450 Amp, 4 AWG, 2 AWG
500 Amp, 2 AWG, 2 AWG
600 Amp, 2 AWG, 1/0 AWG
650 Amp, 2 AWG, 1/0 to 2/0 AWG​*Standard duty​*​​– flat lands with speed and torque
with slight or moderate performance expectations​
*Heavy duty​*​​– maximum performance, high speed,
maximum torque, pulling loads, hilly terrain, or hunting​
buggies.

For my jeep it looks like 1/0 is adequate for cable gauge.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Remember Alltrax mostly sells to golf cart applications. If your cables don't get warm you're probably fine.


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## m38mike (Dec 27, 2008)

600 amps would make for one HOT golf cart!!

This came from the part of thier web site dealing with EV cars. I haven't found anything else anywhere else that gives guidance on cable size. I don't have access to the NEC guide book for stranded cables.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Since Alltrax doesn't go above 72 volts they aren't really appropriate for most cars, unless you are doing a NEV. Here's a chart, I assume for continuous amp draw: http://www.powerstream.com/Wire_Size.htm


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## m38mike (Dec 27, 2008)

That's an interesting chart. Thanks for sharing it. But I wonder how the design voltage for this table, if it was changed, would affect the amperage capacity. Like you said, Alltrax runs controllers on the low end of EV voltage. If you double the voltage the amperage capacity of the same cable goes up, but I'm not sure by how much. Is it exponential? Is it linear? That's why high tension power lines can carry so much power on a realtively thin cable. They're really high voltage.


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## ARti (Oct 27, 2008)

Charger Question:
How's the PFC1500? Any issues? I'm about to order one for my '97 BMW 318ti conversion (ARti). I was planning on a Quick Charge unit, but the PFC1500 seems smaller, which is always good.

Just Checking,
Phillip


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

m38mike said:


> If you double the voltage the amperage capacity of the same cable goes up, but I'm not sure by how much.


Not exactly. Increasing the voltage allows you to carry the same power, wattage, at lower amperage, or more power at the same amperage. 100 amps at 10 volts or 10 amps at 100 volts is the same wattage. Now, does a 300 amp cable at 72 volts have problems with 300 amps at 120 volts, I don't know. The first is 21600 watts the second is 36000 watts.


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## m38mike (Dec 27, 2008)

ARti, No problems with the PFC1500 yet. They certainly planned to get rid of heat with it, the heatsink fins are about 2 inches wide and run top to bottom on one side of the charger. Unfortunately I haven't used it nearly as much as I'd like to. Mostly as a result of no motor.

JRP3, That's the question I'd like to find the answer to. What combinations of amperage and voltage can I use in each cable without concern. That table was nice, but without knowing the voltage to go with the amperage, or without knowing the total wattage, it only shows relative capacity, not total capacity. I wish I did know the voltage because then it would be a very usefull table.


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

m38mike said:


> I wish I did know the voltage because then it would be a very usefull table.


Hey JR and mike,

The conductor size is set by the current or amps, sometimes called the ampacity. The insulation determines the rated voltage. I almost exclusively use welding cable, the good stuff, and it is rated at 600 volts, regardless of the size or current or power. Your charts give the ampacity for various gauges, or conductor size. Bigger is always better, but weighs more and cost more.

Using a good quality welding cable, it will be rated at 600 volts. So forgetaboutit. Just figure out what size you need. 1/0 probably is O.K. for the average current for that vehicle if the cables are not bunched together inside conduit and have long runs (length of cable). Also entering into the equation is the fact that the batteries would not allow extended run times. But knowing mike is using an 11 inch motor, I would have at least used 2/0 cable, maybe 3/0. This would be more in line with the motor current capability even if his current controller and batteries cannot feed it that much. And, the larger size cable will have a lower voltage drop at the higher currents which can be noticeable. Also, the larger cable will use larger lugs and help get the heat out of the devices they are connected to, like contactors and battery posts.

My 2 cents worth,

major


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## tj4fa (May 25, 2008)

I was really surprised when M38Mike said he used 1/0 cable.

His pic at the front of his thread looks to be a lot bigger than 1/0. I thought they looked more like 3 or 4/0.


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## m38mike (Dec 27, 2008)

The label printed on the cable says it's 1/0 cable. The jackets are fairly tough, but not terribly thick. Maybe what makes the cables look so big, is the fact that everything else is so tiny - from tiny little batteries to tiny little spaces to tiny little jeep parts. (NOT!!)


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## m38mike (Dec 27, 2008)

Here's my latest development in the rebuilding process. In the green, 2-inch pull box I've got a 160v 250a breaker. I mounted it there so that if something goes wrong and the breaker trips I'll hear it immediately. Or if the breaker doesn't trip, then I can trip it and shut everything down right now. The cable coming into the top comes from the positive end of the battery pack. The cable going out of the bottom goes to the relay switch (round white switch). I'm wrapping all the cables with a plastic wire loom to protect them from anything that might rub a hole in the jacket. That's a Zivan 1500 charger sitting next to the controller.










I added a heat sink to the bottom of my Logisystem controller. You can just see the end in this photo. When I bolted it down I put two metal bars across the floor under the heat sink so there would be an air gap under all the fins. That will improve air circulation. My next task is to sort out all those little red wires and replace some of them with different colors so I'll know what wire comes from what gauge/sensor/switch. I'll also organize them better than what you see here. That loom coil on the left will wrap all the small wires going from this fuse box to the dash. None of those wires were protected by anything.

It still amazes me that Salida Conversion put 1 amp fuses in to protect a gauge, but had absolutely no fuse or mechanical switch anywhere in the pack power system to protect either the motor or me.


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## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

wow this is the first I noticed you mentioned Salida conversion glad you did they deserve a good smackin

just checked out there web page ,, it is impressive but obviously they aren't


Brian


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## m38mike (Dec 27, 2008)

Brian,
Yeah, they talk a great line, but when the rubber meets the road, they just can't produce. They have decided not to do DC conversions anymore. Mostly I think that since DC conversions are at the low end of the conversion cost scale, there isn't as much profit to be made from each conversion. And since they've failed so many times to make a good DC conversion, they are looking to change. Now they are planning on doing AC conversions. They apparently are buying a kit from someone, not sure what company, that includes all the electrical components except the batteries. That way all the electrical engineering is already done and tested. So now the only way they can fail, and fail they will, is by installing it wrong. I have no doubt that that will happen. Only now instead of it being a $10,000 bungle, it'll be a $20 - $40,000 bungle.


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## m38mike (Dec 27, 2008)

I talked with George at Netgain and with Pete at Salida Conv. George has offered to pay for the return shipping on the 7 motors that Pete still has, and has not paid for. Pete has agreed to do that, after talking with Netgain's lawyer. When that happens then George will send my motor to me with a paid receipt so that I will not be involved in any future litigation between these two companies. Both companies expect to see the motors shipped this week. If those motors get shipped out this week, I should have my motor back in about 2 weeks.

In the mean time, I'm continuing with the rewiring of the circuits that Salida conv. installed. I'm also working on creating the rest of the electrical harness for the rest of the vehicle. When I bought it, it still had the original wires in it from 56 years ago. They were very brittle, so I decided to build an entirely new wire harness for the lights and heater.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

I'm not entirely clear as to why Netgain is basically holding your motor hostage, when they know it's not your fault. What's the downside of them sending you your motor?


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## m38mike (Dec 27, 2008)

JRP3, basically they are trying to get paid for the motors they supplied to Salida Con. When they got my motor, they had their hands on one of the 8 motors that were not paid for. Because I still have an incomplete contract with Salida C., Netgain was hesitant to simply send it back to me, especially with over $2,400 worth of repair work to do on it. They initiated negotiations with Salida to determine how many motors and how much money they would get back from Salida. They started talking with me at the same time. 

Their bottom line is to recover the motors and any owed payment that they can. But they realize that they are going to eat a loss. Salida doesn't have much, if any, cash, so going after them in court would cost more than anything they would get. 

Salida agreed to ship the motors tomorrow. I got an email from George telling me that Netgain would ship my motor after they receive the motors getting shipped back. So I should be seeing my motor in about a week.

I wanted to just walk away from all of this when they first claimed my motor, but I had a feeling that if I worked with it, and waited long enough that it would all work in my favor, and it has.


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## m38mike (Dec 27, 2008)

The motors are finally gone. Salida Conv. shipped them to Netgain yesterday. So I expect to see my motor next week.

My next challenge is finding a tachometer that I can make work in this vehicle. I want a 2 inch tach so it'll fit in one of the gauge openings in the dash. I've found a couple that I like from Dotcon and another one from Westach. The trouble is finding one that'll work off a magnetic pickup and not from the alternator or coil.


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## Jimdear2 (Oct 12, 2008)

m38mike said:


> The motors are finally gone. Salida Conv. shipped them to Netgain yesterday. So I expect to see my motor next week.
> 
> My next challenge is finding a tachometer that I can make work in this vehicle. I want a 2 inch tach so it'll fit in one of the gauge openings in the dash. I've found a couple that I like from Dotcon and another one from Westach. The trouble is finding one that'll work off a magnetic pickup and not from the alternator or coil.


A two inch analog tach is going to be hard to find. Maybe an electronic might be made to fit. 

See the instrument and gauges section of the Jegs catalog. A couple hundered to look at for a start.
http://www.jegs.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/category_10001_10002_10339_-1_10331

Most aftermarket tachs are going to be able accept the standard 2, 3 or 4 pulse per counted motor revolution signal. 

Example; 2 pulses was used on 4 cylinder engines 3 pulses for 6 cylinder and 4 pulses for eight cylinder. 

Most aftermarket tachs have a method of setting for each type engine. When hooking up to an electric motor use an industrial type prox switch and make a reluctor to match the pulse set you need for how you set the tach.

Hope this helps


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## m38mike (Dec 27, 2008)

Jimdear2,
I found a good assortment of 2 inch tachs and other gauges at www.westach.com In fact they will custom build tachs or other gauges in any of their standard sizes. The amperage gauge and the % charge gauge I already have are both 2 inch Westach gauges. When I looked at the Jegs site they had a cool collection of digital tach in different colors. I thought about getting a digital tach with a green screen, but I like the look of analog tachs better, and it'll fit the character of the jeep a little better.


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## Bottomfeeder (Jun 13, 2008)

I bought an SOC meter and Ammeter from Westach. The face design isn't the best, but they made them upside down (which is needed for my low dash) and I got the chrome bezels so they match my speedo and tach. They were very easy to deal with over the phone.

I'm really only posting so I can finally subscribe to this thread!


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## m38mike (Dec 27, 2008)

I've been talking with Pete at Westach for the last few days, and he's agreed to custom make the tach that I want for this project. It'll have a black face and bezel, white markings, and a white pointer with orange tip. It'll be a 3/4 sweep on a 0-5000 scale, so it should be easy to pick the rpm to the nearest hundred. His price was only about $20 more than their stock tach, which I thought was a good deal. The stock tack has a 90 degree sweep. I much prefer the 270 degree sweep. 

Not to be procrastinators, but we're just finishing up our taxes for last year. If you haven't heard, there is now a federal tax credit for electric vehicle conversions. It amounts to 10% of the cost of the conversion. Not much but not bad. I really like the Colorado state income tax credit. They will credit me for 85% of the cost of conversion against my state income tax. And if I can't get it all in the first year, they give me 5 years to collect the rest. Can't beat that with a baseball bat!! Bottom line on this is that if you're in Colorado and you convert a vehicle to electricity, you can get 95% of it paid for in tax credits. And if you junk the gas engine, or sell it out of state, you can get another 15% on the state tax credit. I guess I should have sold the ICE that was in it to someone out of state.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

That's good info on the tax credit. Do you know if it has to be a "professional" conversion or are home made conversions qualified?


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## tj4fa (May 25, 2008)

I don't beleive DIY conversions count for the current IRS tax credit.

I looked into it when filing for my taxes and found it only applied to hybrids and alternative fuels vehicles manufactured by major automakers.

http://www.irs.gov/businesses/corporations/article/0,,id=202341,00.html

http://www.irs.gov/newsroom/article/0,,id=157632,00.html

http://blog.wired.com/cars/2009/01/no-tax-incentiv.html


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## m38mike (Dec 27, 2008)

tj4fa, if you read the instructions for Form 8910, you'll find that it qualifies for any EV put into service after Feb 17, 2009. Here's a quote:

"Qualified Plug-in electric drive motor vehicle. This is a vehicle converted (and then placed in service after February 17, 2009) to be propelled to a significant extent by an electric motor that draws electricity from certain batteries capable of being recharged from an external source of electricity, and that meets certain additional requirements."

To qualify for the credit:


*the vehicle is certified by the manufacturer*
You are the owner of the vehicle.
You placed the vehicle in service during your tax year.
The original use of the vehicle began with you.
You acquired the vehicle for use....
You use the vehicle primarily in the United States.
"Enter the lesser of $4,000 or 10% of the cost of converting a motor vehicle to a qualified plug-in electric drive motor vehicle that is then placed inservice after February 17, 2009. For details, see section 30B(i) which was inserted into the Internal Revenue Code by section 1143 of Public Law 111-5."

I didn't spend $40,000 on mine, so I guess 10% will have to do. 

*I looked at the following IRS bulletin and quickly realized that I was not wrong in my original read of the credit instructions. 
http://www.irs.gov/irb/2006-26_IRB/ar13.html
If you read SECTION 6 of this notice it addresses converted vehicles. It says " The definitions and rules in this section apply solely with respect to converted vehicles. ...a converted vehicle is an alternative fuel motor vehicle ... that was converted from a ... used gasoline or diesel fuel motor vehicle." 

It also says, "A converted vehicle is made by a manufacturer only if a person is required under title II of the Clean Air Act to obtain a certificate of conformity covering the converted vehicle or the engine used in the converted vehicle." That tells me that since I don't have to get an emissions test on my vehicle, I don't need a manufacturers certificate. That negates the first bulleted requirement above. I meet the rest of the requirements.

Well, at least Colorado doesn't care who built or converted it. That credit does work for the DIY guy.*


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## tj4fa (May 25, 2008)

You mean these instructions?

http://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/i8910.pdf

So, if I placed my EV in service in Nov08 that doesn't count? 

I'm not really done yet with my hybrid range extender...


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## m38mike (Dec 27, 2008)

I don't think you placed it into service in November 08. I think you began component testing to determine serviceability, and design certification. That is at least a 5 month process in my book.


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## tj4fa (May 25, 2008)

m38mike said:


> I don't think you placed it into service in November 08. I think you began component testing to determine serviceability, and design certification. That is at least a 5 month process in my book.


That's true. I still have a lot of bugs to work out and by some strange twist of fate, my insurance company never changed over the policy on my Caravan to the Ranger. 

My wife noticed this on insurance bill this week and I _officially_ insured the Ranger for road use this past Tuesday. 

Now, I guess I should try to do an ammendment on my tax return that was sent in yesterday. I guess I'll bring this up to my tax guy who said I didn't qualify before I bring him his check. 

Thanks!


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## dtbaker (Jan 5, 2008)

*Re: conversion federal tax credit*



m38mike said:


> tj4fa, if you read the instructions for Form 8910, you'll find that it qualifies for any EV put into service after Feb 17, 2009.


very exciting indeed... not too late for me since I am still working on my return.  Too bad its only 10%. I will be curious to see how good TurboTax handles the situation.

Seems odd that a condition occurring in 09 can apply to TY08, but I guess its sort of like how you get a couple months to figure out the IRA thing.

d


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## tj4fa (May 25, 2008)

*Re: conversion federal tax credit*



dtbaker said:


> Seems odd that a condition occurring in 09 can apply to TY08, but I guess its sort of like how you get a couple months to figure out the IRA thing.
> 
> d


Best I can tell is February 17th is when President Obama signed the American Recovery and Reinvestment Act of 2009.

Here is what it says about electric conversion kits at the bottom of page 12 in the link below:

http://finance.senate.gov/press/Bpress/2009press/prb021209.pdf

It would seem that if it "restores and updates" that it might be retro-active as it is not something new...


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## blackpanther-st (Apr 4, 2009)

m38mike said:


> tj4fa, if you read the instructions for Form 8910, you'll find that it qualifies for any EV put into service after Feb 17, 2009. Here's a quote:
> 
> "Qualified Plug-in electric drive motor vehicle. This is a vehicle converted (and then placed in service after February 17, 2009) to be propelled to a significant extent by an electric motor that draws electricity from certain batteries capable of being recharged from an external source of electricity, and that meets certain additional requirements."


Wow and I was about to give up hope on them showing us DIY guys some respect!

I was still planning on my conversion, but now I can feel a little more at ease with the coast of the investment


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## m38mike (Dec 27, 2008)

Here's a couple of photos of my work today. This first one shows the cables bolted up to the controller and the high voltage relay. The on-board charger is now in place. I've put almost all the wires into wire looms to protect them. I've also used different colors of electrical tape to mark each loom so I know where the cable is supposed to go. The small loom with orange tape has the 3 wires from the potentiometer (accelerator) that connect with the controller. 










I've also stripped away most of the wires the shop had attached to the small fuse box. I'm relocating some of them to the fuse block in the dash. A couple of them I'm getting rid of since I don't need them with my new wiring scheme. In the photo below I've pulled all the cables out from under the jeep to get them out of the way while I pull and rework the lite wires used for gauges. In this photo it's easy to see the color tape I used to identify what the cable connects to. This makes it very easy to follow one cable when it's bundled with others. 










I've got to get some different sized ring terminals for a couple of my wire ends so I can get rid of a lot of un-needed wire. Once I've got the gauge wires fixed and in a loom, then I'll zip tie all these cable in their final location. I noticed on two of the cables that the jackets had been chafed by something. We didn't drive the vehicle very far yet, and already I found places where the cables could have been shorted if we drove the jeep much farther. These looms, and a different routing, should take care of that for me.


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## blackpanther-st (Apr 4, 2009)

m38mike said:


> I added a heat sink to the bottom of my Logisystem controller. You can just see the end in this photo. When I bolted it down I put two metal bars across the floor under the heat sink so there would be an air gap under all the fins. That will improve air circulation.


Mike, unless you raise that up at least 3/4" to 1" I doubt that there will be enough air flow to make good use of that big sink, in fact as close as that looks I would say that you may actually be insulating it from transfering heat to the floor of the Jeep through direct contact. 

My recommendations would be ither to make a bracket allowing the logisys to be mounted on it's side, or cut a hole in the floor just big enough for the fins to drop in and mount the flange to the edge of the hole. there shuld be plenty of air flow under the Jeep when it is in use. a litle silicone sealent on the mating surface to the floor will prevent water spray under the Jeep from geting in to the electronic section.

Just my observation and thoughts.

I am looking foward to hearng how that logisys works for you, I am strongly considering one for my project.


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## Bottomfeeder (Jun 13, 2008)

I think most of the heat is generated on the top of the Logisystems controllers. It might be more beneficial to install some 120mm square fans on the top. It looks like you already have the mounting holes. You just need to make some spacers to hold the fans off by 1/2" or 3/4" or so. I'd check it's temperature frequently during your test drives.

I like the wiring harness ideas.


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## m38mike (Dec 27, 2008)

What I'm thinking I'll do is put a small box fan on this end of the controller to blow air between the fins and across the top of the controller. It'll be easy to wire into the fuse box that's there so it turns on when the 12v power is on. With a little air movement it should be easy to get rid of any heat that builds up. 

I don't want the Logisystem on it's side because I can easily access the adjustment screws when it's mounted this way. Even when I put the driver's seat back over everything, the adjusting screws are readily available. I don't expect to adjust it much at all once I've initially set it, but I may play with the settings a little to see how much zip this old jeep can take.


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## blackpanther-st (Apr 4, 2009)

m38mike said:


> What I'm thinking I'll do is put a small box fan on this end of the controller to blow air between the fins and across the top of the controller.


That sounds like it should do the trick.


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## m38mike (Dec 27, 2008)

I found the RPM switch I've been looking for to be able to shut off the motor before it spins too fast and destroys itself. It's made by MSD Ignitions, model 8969, programable RPM Switch. Here's a photo of it. It uses the tach signal to monitor rpm.









It has two circuits in it. One is normally closed (NC), meaning it's on until this switch turns it off. The other is normally open (NO) until the switch closes it, turning it on. I will wire the NC circuit to the high voltage relay, and set the RPM limit to 4,500 rpm. If the motor gets spinning that fast, the switch will kill the 12v power to the HV relay and shut off the motor. The motor isn't supposed to spin faster than 5,000 rpm for any length of time. 

I will wire the NO circuit to a warning light, actually a blinking red LED, to get my attention and let me know I'm close to the cutoff limit for the motor. I'll probably set this circuit about 4,000 rpm. Normally when I'm driving I don't expect to go over about 3,600 rpm. This way I can't over-rev the motor when I'm in a low gear, or if I accidently mash the accelerator when it's in neutral, or if someone else is driving and they don't know what is going on. It's cheap insurance for an expensive motor.


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## blackpanther-st (Apr 4, 2009)

m38mike said:


> I found the RPM switch I've been looking for...


Mike this is a great find! I was just thinking about designing a circuit to do just this. 

A few questions I have is, from what you wrote it seems to indicate that the NC and NO outputs can be programed to each have there own RPM trip point, am I correct about this assumption? 

Also what is the price and where can we find it?

You mentioned setting your contactor for 4500 RPM and a rev light for 4000 RPM; I would recommend using a latching relay on the contactor output, otherwise when the RPM drops you will most likly surge the controller when the contactor reengages, I don't think that the prechage resistor will help in this situation becouse the controler is already calling for power which will load the prechage resistor and drop the potential on it's controller side to near 0. 

PersonallyI would only use the contactor as a secondary shutdown method; prior to that I would take the out put you are running to your rev light and also run that to a simple circuit which alters what the controler sees from the throttle pot. 

circuit design would be such that upon tripping the rev limit the circuit would instantly drop the throttle output to 0 and upon the RPM trip signal returning to normal, a discharge of a capacitor would gradually raise the throttle output back up to whatever the driver is applying to the throttle pot.

This circuit shuld effectively rev limit and protect the motor from user error. The secondary trip with the latching relay on the main contactor, protects the motor and your safety in the event of a full on controler failure 

I wont know the capacitor size until I get further along in my own project and can do some testing, but I will try to draw out the basic circuit and post it here soon.


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## WSJ (Sep 18, 2008)

The Digital Window Switch, PN 8969 installation manual states the following:

There is a 200 rpm safety range built into the activation and deactivation points. This means that the rpm must drop 200 rpm below the activation point to turn the circuit off. Conversely, the rpm must drop 200 rpm below the deactivation point in order to turn the circuit back on. This is to prevent the circuit from ‘chattering on and off’.

This means the contactor will close when the motor falls 200 RPM below the set point and the on/off cycle will continue until the problem is corrected. If the motor sees full power with no load, it may exceed the RPM set point based on the delay of the Digital Window Switch and contactor. Have you considered a circuit with an option that latches off with a manual reset? This would prevent the motor form cycling on and off at the maximum RPM.


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## m38mike (Dec 27, 2008)

blackpanther and WSJ,
I think you guys have hit on a great idea. A latching relay would keep the system shut down until I took positive action to bring it back up. And it could be done in such a way that if I accidently over rev'd, I could bring it back up in just a moment, thereby maintaining my momentum going down the road. Brilliant! And I really like the idea of having two shutoffs, one on the pot signal and one on the HV Contactor. That redundancy will provide for any variety of component failures or operator mistakes.

I bought the switch from www.jegs.com for $153 with handling/delivery. Each of the two switch circuits are independently set with an rpm range of 200-15,000 rpm. 

Now I need to go see what's available for latching relays. Perhaps fortunately, all of this activity will take place in the low voltage side of the vehicle. I think that the pot-intercept relay would not need a capacitor, although that might bring the current up more gradually. I think just getting my foot off the pedal before I manually engage the latching relay should be enough. Then it's just a matter of the relay being on or off.


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## blackpanther-st (Apr 4, 2009)

> Now I need to go see what's available for latching relays. Perhaps fortunately, all of this activity will take place in the low voltage side of the vehicle. I think that the pot-intercept relay would not need a capacitor, although that might bring the current up more gradually. I think just getting my foot off the pedal before I manually engage the latching relay should be enough. Then it's just a matter of the relay being on or off.


As for the latching relay, just use a relay with an extra set of contacts and use them to feed back in to it self once it trips. a low current rectifier diode should be used between the relay coil and the device sending the trip signal, ( your rev switch you found), on the extra set of contacts, use the normally open with one side to the coil and the other to a voltage source the same as your triger voltage, ( I am assuming that this would be the vehicle system 12V); it should at least be on at all times the key switch is on, which is how I would do it myself, because you can reset it by simply turning the key switch off and then back on. alternately a more permanent shut down would be to use an always on 12V line with a manual reset button placed wherever you feel is appropriate. the reset button would be normally open. (double throw is probably easier to find). 

From what WSJ mentioned about 200 RPM window you should be fine without the capacitor on the pot box; I suggested that to avoid the jurky urkys, the delay of falling 200 RPM shuld give you plenty of time to react and let off of the accelerator.

I almost forgot to mention to be aware of the configuration of your pot box; is it 0-5K or 5K-0? if 5k-0 you should be able to just interrupt it with the relay, if it is 0-5k then shunt the pot with a 5k resistor. 

Test in a controlled environment! it is way to easy to get it backwards.


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## Jimdear2 (Oct 12, 2008)

m38mike said:


> blackpanther and WSJ,
> I think you guys have hit on a great idea. A latching relay would keep the system shut down until I took positive action to bring it back up. And it could be done in such a way that if I accidently over rev'd, I could bring it back up in just a moment, thereby maintaining my momentum going down the road. Brilliant! And I really like the idea of having two shutoffs, one on the pot signal and one on the HV Contactor. That redundancy will provide for any variety of component failures or operator mistakes.
> 
> I bought the switch from www.jegs.com for $153 with handling/delivery. Each of the two switch circuits are independently set with an rpm range of 200-15,000 rpm.
> ...


You don'i need a latching relay. Sealing a standard $2.99 30A automotive relay will do the job. Look at the attached wiring diagram.

When I built this Motor Runaway Stopper circuit I had first looked at the RPM switch you bought, but since I also needed a tachometer I went with a racing tach with shift light for my tripping signal. 

This circuit works and will shut down the motor, I have tested it. If you wire the relay as I did you must turn the key switch off to reset the system.

I considered not sealing the relay, controlling the pot signal by switching a fixed resistance in and out and using it as a rev limiter. Letting the motor rpm just sort of bounce off the limit like an ICE rev limiter with the cycle time of the relay as a frequency. In the end I went with simplicity. 

The reason I needed the stopper was broken drive train parts. A pull only lasts 10 -15 seconds so I will start slow on intigrating the fancy stuff

I may still try the limiter later. Right now I'm still working on a 50 rpm motor stall out shutdown circuit.

<edit> Look at the Nitroius Injection section of the Jegs catalog and you will find many more of these RPM switches. Also check eBay for deals lots of them <endedit>

<2nd edit> I was looking over other posts in this thead and noticed that blackpanther gave you identicle information worded differently. I'm sure either one of us can get you up and running with this. A point to remember, test the circuit with limited voltage to the motor. You may notice a hall sender on the motor in the diagram. I ended up with a Prox sensor with a homemade 4 pole reluctor. Works exaxtly the same. <end edit>


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## WSJ (Sep 18, 2008)

A cruse control using the tach signal form the motor would act as a RPM limiter. If something failed, the safety circuit would open the contactor when the RPM exceeds the programmed value.


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## m38mike (Dec 27, 2008)

Jim,
I looked at the other rpm switches and many would not work with the hall effect tach sensor that I'm going to use according to the Jegs tech rep I spoke with. The one I bought will work with almost any type of input. Most of the others require an rpm chip to work. This one is programable in a wide range of rpm. It costs a few bucks more, but it does exactly what I want, and it gives me a lot of flexibility. I'd like to understand the idea of using a regular relay instead of a latching relay. I looked at your diagram, but it's not making sense to me. Guess I need to study it a bit more. 

blackpanther,
Do you have a product in mind? I'm not sure I see what it is you're describing.


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## Jimdear2 (Oct 12, 2008)

m38mike said:


> Jim,
> I looked at the other rpm switches and many would not work with the hall effect tach sensor that I'm going to use according to the Jegs tech rep I spoke with. The one I bought will work with almost any type of input. Most of the others require an rpm chip to work. This one is programable in a wide range of rpm. It costs a few bucks more, but it does exactly what I want, and it gives me a lot of flexibility. I'd like to understand the idea of using a regular relay instead of a latching relay. I looked at your diagram, but it's not making sense to me. Guess I need to study it a bit more.
> 
> blackpanther,
> Do you have a product in mind? I'm not sure I see what it is you're describing.


 
I had the same moment of confusion when I first saw the sealing circuit. I'll try to help you see how it works.

The standard relay has 1 normaly open set of contacts (NO) and 1 set of normaly closed (NC) contacts. 

You arrange your standard relay into the Key On circuit that activates your main contactor, with the power going through the NC set of contacts.

You wire your RPM switch to the operating coil of the standard relay so that the output from the RPM switch trips the relay and opens the NO set of contacts. This shuts down the main contactor. 

Now comes the part wher people get lost. 

While the relay is activated you now have the Key On power that was operating the main contactor available at the NO points. If you take that power and put it into the operating coil, the relay will stay energised until you turn of the key switch. 

Depending on the RPM switch you might want to put a diode into the circuit to prevent current flow back into the RPM switch when it falls out of the rpm set point and deactivates.

Does this help?


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## Will-E (Apr 20, 2009)

Mike, 
I am just getting into the conversion of my '46 willys cj2a. I have been geeting the body back together and am just about ready to paint it. I am about to start gathering the EV components. It was very exciting to see it all compleated in your pics....something to strive for now....and proof to my Wife and Kids I'm not entirely crazy! I was also thinking about doing away with the clutch and see you did the same. How did that work out for you? The other concern I have is the 4 wheel drive. Do you think it is a substantial drag...do you have disconnecting hubs?. Aside from being a great looking vehicle I think it is well suited for convesion as it is very light and has pretty rugged suspension to help handle the added battery weight. 
Thanks for the inspiration!!!
Will-E


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## blackpanther-st (Apr 4, 2009)

Mike any of the 5-10 amp 12V coil glass encosed ones will do, (Radioshack or a real electronics store if you are lucky enough to have one near by about $10 bucks). I would stay far away from the cheep automotive ones; they are just that, cheep and are prone to failure. they fine for non critical systems like auxilary lighting but not for somthing desighned to prevent an uncontrolable launch infrount of a fast mooving semi.

I was going to post a scemetic, but I guess I nead to host it somewhere else first.


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## Jimdear2 (Oct 12, 2008)

blackpanther-st said:


> Mike any of the 5-10 amp 12V coil glass encosed ones will do.


Mike,

This is the relay that I ended up using. It has the advantage of a fairly low resistance coil and high current ratings.

https://www.surpluscenter.com/item.asp?UID=2009042420210836&catname=&qty=1&item=11-2420

Another plus is there are two sides to the relay, so if you should burn a set of points in the relay (not too likely since the relay is rated at 25 amps) you just have to move the connectors to the other set of points and your back in business.

It's a great relay but Surplus Center shipping can kill the deal unless you find/ other things to make it more cost effictive.

I've also attached a rough (very rough) sketch schematic and explaination of how the runaway shut down protection circuit works. Read through it while you trace the circuit. 

Since your RPM switch has two set points I would use the lower setting of the rpm switch to control the throttle pot as a rev limiter. You can use the same circuit without the sealing wire. You would run the throttle pot through the normally closed contacts, so each time the motor rpm reached the set limit the circuit would act like you took your foot off the throttle. When the rpm fell below the set point the relay would go back to it's relaxed position and the circuit to the throttle pot would be restored and the motor would start to speed up. It would continue to act like that at the frequency of operation of the relay until you backed off power with the foot pedal.

With this set up I described you have a rev limiter for those slippery spots and for inexperianced people flooring the throttle in neutral. Plus with the second and higher rpm limit you have a blown controller, full power applied, last ditch shut down of the main contactor.


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## blackpanther-st (Apr 4, 2009)

Mike, I concur that Jimdear2's schematic is electicaly equivelent to what I had drawn out, so that looks good to me. 

The relay he posted a link for is in my opinion a bit heavy handed and the 80 ohm coil may be to low for your RPM switch, the ones I was thinking of are more like 150 ohms or so.

A higher ohm load will draw less current from the switch which likly has a low limmit. his will probably still be within spec of the current limmit though. 

From what I have read the main contactor shuld not draw more than 1 amp, so the contact rating for any of these shuld be fine. if you have a good multimeater it is easy enough to do a quick test of you main contactors draw to be on the safe side.

Note that in some setups the main contactor is driven from the controler and often in that cace the controler reduses current after initial pull in. if your setup is like this, diconect for testing and use straght system 12v as this will be the initial pull in current.


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## m38mike (Dec 27, 2008)

Jim,
I really like the concept in the sketch you drew. The only issue I have is that the RPM switch opens or closes the ground (-), not the power (+) with the two programable circuits. What would the connections between the rpm switch and the relay look like with the rpm switch on the ground side of that coil? And since the ground through the rpm switch goes away once the rpm is 200 rpm below the set limit, how would you keep the ground to keep the relay from returning to it's normal setting? Would putting this whole system on the ground side of the main contactor work?


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## Jimdear2 (Oct 12, 2008)

m38mike said:


> Jim,
> I really like the concept in the sketch you drew. The only issue I have is that the RPM switch opens or closes the ground (-), not the power (+) with the two programable circuits. What would the connections between the rpm switch and the relay look like with the rpm switch on the ground side of that coil? And since the ground through the rpm switch goes away once the rpm is 200 rpm below the set limit, how would you keep the ground to keep the relay from returning to it's normal setting? Would putting this whole system on the ground side of the main contactor work?


Mike,

Wwith the addition of a second relay, it will work exacrly the same way as previously described. The addition of the second relay in combination with the RPM switch allows the pair to operate the same way as I showed the RPM switch operating in the first schematic.

See the attached schematic.

To all of you electronics weenies I know that there are probably 10 different ways to do this electronically, but my education is electro mechanical not electronics. I would welcome the design of a more elegent and robust circuit.


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## m38mike (Dec 27, 2008)

Jim, thanks a bunch!! I've redrawn your diagram to show the connections on a typical 12v relay. I'm not sure of the connections on a glass-case relay, but it should be easy to figure out. See if this meets with your approval.








I know it's kind of faint, but it should be dark enough to read. I only need about 1 amp to close my HV contactor so I put a 2 amp fuse in the line to make sure I have enough juice. This is diabolically simple! And to reset it all, all I need to do is turn off the 12v key and turn it back on again. 

So if I accidently over-rev while going down the road, I could shut down and start up again while I'm moving. This would give me the physical capability to do that, but should I do that? What would happen in my controller if I did this? Would I be likely to damage the controller by abruptly turning off the 12v key and turning it back on? I don't know. 

The precharge resistor would still be feeding HV through to the controller, but the pot box may be telling the contoller to feed power to the motor. If that is the case, then I might quickly drain any residual power that might be left in the controller. Then the contactor would close again and I could slam 144v and lotsa amps into the controller before it's ready to take it. 

Lots of "ifs" in all this. I'm probably safest to take my foot off the accelerator, and turn the key off and back on, then count to 10 before I put my foot back on the accelerator again.


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## blackpanther-st (Apr 4, 2009)

m38mike said:


> And to reset it all, all I need to do is turn off the 12v key and turn it back on again.
> 
> So if I accidently over-rev while going down the road, I could shut down and start up again while I'm moving. This would give me the physical capability to do that, but should I do that? What would happen in my controller if I did this? Would I be likely to damage the controller by abruptly turning off the 12v key and turning it back on? I don't know.
> 
> ...


As long as you take you foot off of the accelerator and wait long enough for the precharge *before* turning the key back on you should be fine. (It is the engagement of the contactor on an uncharged controller that is the real isue here.) I cant tell you how long that will be, because it changes with each controler and precharge resistor value as well as pack voltage, but I an fairly sure that a properly designed system recharges in just a few seconds. 

As far as the last circuit with the negative out put of your RPM switch goes I can get this to work on one relay; I'll post something simpler up here when I wake up again.


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## m38mike (Dec 27, 2008)

blackpanther-st, thanks! Keep in mind that I can use one of two circuits on the rpm switch. I can open the ground at 4500 rpm or I can close it. But what ever one I use, it reverses when the motor slows to 4300. That's why a "latching" setup is so useful for me. 

The other circuit I will use either to shut off the pot box input in the same fashion at about 4,000 rpm, or I may simply use it to activate a warning light to let me know that I'm getting close to motor shutdown. If I shut off the pot box input, then I think I'd use a momentary push-on switch to reverse the relay and re-establish the pot box input. That way I would not affect the contactor or controller at all. And I could restart/reset the circuit immediately without causing the problems I would have if I shut down the entire 12v system.


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## Jimdear2 (Oct 12, 2008)

m38mike said:


> blackpanther-st, thanks! Keep in mind that I can use one of two circuits on the rpm switch. I can open the ground at 4500 rpm or I can close it. But what ever one I use, it reverses when the motor slows to 4300. That's why a "latching" setup is so useful for me.
> 
> The other circuit I will use either to shut off the pot box input in the same fashion at about 4,000 rpm, or I may simply use it to activate a warning light to let me know that I'm getting close to motor shutdown. If I shut off the pot box input, then I think I'd use a momentary push-on switch to reverse the relay and re-establish the pot box input. That way I would not affect the contactor or controller at all. And I could restart/reset the circuit immediately without causing the problems I would have if I shut down the entire 12v system.


Mike, Panther,

You are both missing an important point about this device. It was concieved as a broken component/shorted controller last ditch motor *runaway *stopper. Basically a one time use then find out what was wrong set up. 

_*There should be no reset until the cause has been discovered and repaired.*_

A quick reset under some of these conditions would just cause the motor to runaway again and since you opened the contactor under load the first time it might just weld the second time (it happens).

The design left the 12 volt circuit live to keep things like brake lights, steering pump and vacuum pump running, but it does positivly shut down the HV circuit to the motor. 

As you describe above, for a rev limiter you want to control the resistance or voltage (as your controller is equipped) of the throttle circuit. 

Here's how I would set up a rev limiter, 

Using the lower of the two rpm set points in your RPM switch (the upper would be for the runaway stopper) you would either mimic lifting your foot off the throttle by opening the circuit or mimic moving the throttle pot to some partial throttle position by switching in or paralleling in a fixed resistance.

*A Simple Rev Limiter*



The circuit for 0 to 5k ohm throttle as follows

The throttle pot circuit would run through the normally closed contatcs of the relay.
The operating coil of the relay is wired as shown for the runaway circuit
When the rev limit was reached , the rpm switch would activate the relay. this would open the throttle circuit
Normally open circuit unused (foot lifted)
Normally open circuit switches in fixed resistance (part throttle)

This would continue to cycle until the operator called for motor rpm dropped below the set point. (drive lifter foot off throttle)




This circuit would give you the protection needed to prevent over rev,
From a slippery spot,
Over-rev on shifts
A noob flooring it to hear the motor
While allowing you to still maintain power to the motor.

This protects you without shuting down the main contactor under load which can have bad results.

Mike,
By the way, you definatly have a better free hand then I do. Faint or not it's a good drawing.


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## m38mike (Dec 27, 2008)

Jim,
You're spot on. The switch to kill the contactor should not be quickly reset. I guess I was thinking out loud for those instances where I leave the jeep in first gear and really rap the motor up. Nothing is broken except my thought concentration. I think having a switch/relay on the pot circuit will take care of that for me. 

As for my other 12v needs, well, jeeps are pretty simple. Brakes are only hydraulic, lights and horn have their own circuit, and steering is all mechanical. As for the vacuum pump, I'll just have to wait until I get home to use my shop vac. It's too dangerous to clean the jeep floors while I'm travelling!! 

Thanks for the drawing comment. I've had to make a lot of wiring diagrams over the years, and I found that taking time to make everything crystal clear really pays off sometimes. I found that taking your drawing and putting the tab numbers on it really helped me understand how your idea worked. What I didn't add on in mine was the tie-in of the shut down warning light (blinking red LED) powered up by R#2 87. That way I have a very quick visual reference to let me know the reason the vehicle has just died.


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## Jimdear2 (Oct 12, 2008)

m38mike said:


> Jim,
> You're spot on. The switch to kill the contactor should not be quickly reset. I guess I was thinking out loud for those instances where I leave the jeep in first gear and really rap the motor up. Nothing is broken except my thought concentration. I think having a switch/relay on the pot circuit will take care of that for me.
> 
> As for my other 12v needs, well, jeeps are pretty simple. Brakes are only hydraulic, lights and horn have their own circuit, and steering is all mechanical. As for the vacuum pump, I'll just have to wait until I get home to use my shop vac. It's too dangerous to clean the jeep floors while I'm travelling!!
> ...


Mike,

Glad you caught the reason for not using a quick reset.

When I first started with this circuit I just needed something to shut down the motor when I broke a drivetrain part on the pulling tractor. I initially was going to shut everthing down when the relay was tripped but after a bit of thought, I could see this working in a car if I wired it as it exists now. A lot of people use those other electric motor driven units in their EVs and I thought leaving a method of keeping them live might make coasting off the road easier.

I am using a tachometer with a settable shift light to control the runaway relay. The tachometer shift light circuit trips the relay and the 87a circuit also turns on the shift light to let me know what happened.


I went through all of the latching relays and expensive rpm switch designs until I finally setteled on the tach and simple relay because

It's a recall tach (stores highest rpm attained) I needed a tach to have some idea of maximum motor RPM attained to help me adjust gearing, weighting, tire pressure and other variables.
Along with the accessible data mapping in the Alltrax I should get things tuned in relitivey quicly.
With a tach I can watch for loose spots on the track and throttle through them without over rev (I may go to the rev limiter later).
A 5 inch racing tach is easy to see.
The tachs I chose were inexpensive ($60.00), were flexible in hook up and not fussy about the driving signal
So I got inexpensive, multiple functions from the tach.

The relays (surplus center) were inexpensive and of high quality.

The prox sensor was $9.00 the reluctor was made from scrap metal.

Simple, made from tried and proven components and inexpensive.


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## blackpanther-st (Apr 4, 2009)

m38mike said:


> Jim,
> You're spot on. The switch to kill the contactor should not be quickly reset. I guess I was thinking out loud for those instances where I leave the jeep in first gear and really rap the motor up. Nothing is broken except my thought concentration. I think having a switch/relay on the pot circuit will take care of that for me.
> 
> As for my other 12v needs, well, jeeps are pretty simple. Brakes are only hydraulic, lights and horn have their own circuit, and steering is all mechanical. As for the vacuum pump, I'll just have to wait until I get home to use my shop vac. It's too dangerous to clean the jeep floors while I'm travelling!!
> ...


Sorry I took so long to get this up, but the whether was perfect hear today and I did not want to miss the opportunity to get me Fiero de ICEd. anyway here it is;

Note: I drew this with the DPDT relay in the energized position, as in a triped system. The SPDT relay is for the first REV limit on the pot. AS I do not now which type pot system you have ( 0-5K or 5k-0 ), I did not draw the connection to the pot, but we covered that circuit before, for both types.










OK, so now I am going to play Devils advocate and state why I take the opposite stance on being able to reset on the fly.

Situation one, say you pull out of an intersection with limited visibility going down hill only to find that there is a fast moving truck coming right up behind you. in trying to get up to speed as quickly as you can you floor it and accidentally over rev, because it was floored and your going down hill, the revs blow right by the first limit before the controler reacts and stops applying power to the motor and the second limit trips opening the contactor.

Now you are in a bad situation with no power; this is not a controler malfunction and with a resetable system all you have to do is turn the key off and back on to get going again; helpfully before you get rearended. With a hard shut down all you can do is coast and possibly with no place to pull out of the way.

In situation two, say you have a true full power on controler failure; odds are that you are well aware of what just happened because your foot was off the accelerator and hard on the brake trying to slow the MF down. you already know not to reset in this situation, and as far as the noobs goes, they should be made aware of the procedure ahead of time. it is really no different than a stuck throttle on an ICE powered vehicle.

It's up to you which way you go, but these are my thought's on the matter. my circuit drawing is of the resetible system, if you want the other then move just the positive side of the DPDT relay coil from the key switch out, to an always on system 12V. leave the rest the same.


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## Jimdear2 (Oct 12, 2008)

blackpanther-st said:


> Sorry I took so long to get this up, but the whether was perfect hear today and I did not want to miss the opportunity to get me Fiero de ICEd. anyway here it is;
> 
> Note: I drew this with the DPDT relay in the energized position, as in a triped system. The SPDT relay is for the first REV limit on the pot. AS I do not now which type pot system you have ( 0-5K or 5k-0 ), I did not draw the connection to the pot, but we covered that circuit before, for both types.
> 
> ...


 
Panther,

Thanks for stepping in with your schematic. I learned something. Always a good thing.

No design is ever perfect under all conditions, so the best we can do is try. As I said this setup was for a specific condition on the pulling tractors.

The runaway stoper will work as stated probably under 98 % of conditions we might ever run into.

The rev limiter should work as stated but requires testing.

Best bet is to make an informed choice. Your input helps us make that choice.

MIke
Blackpanther-st's schematic for the runaway shut down system using a controlled ground rpm switch will work very well using that surplus center DPDT relay I sent you the number on. They also have a silghtly lighter rated DPDT relay for about a 1.00 less on the same catalog page. 

I know the runaway shutdown system works because I have tested it. See attached photo. By the way don't let the indicated RPM on the tach fool you. The motor is only running at 12 volts and about 18-1900 rpm. I was using a four pole reluctor (4 pulses per each motor rev = V8) but had set the tach for a four cylinder (2 pulse) to get the indicated RPM range up where I wanted to check the action. Also it shows testing the standard cheapo SPDT automotive relay that had too high a resistance in the coil to work reliably with the shift light shown (not enough current to reliably trip the relay). The surplus center relay has worked perfectly for over 50 trial tripsouts.

The RPM limiter I HAVE NOT TESTED. 

It should work as stated, but until I get the chance to run the tests with the contoller in the circuit (I need 24 volts for the controller to work right and don't want to run the motor on 24 volts without a load) I just don't know for sure. 

I think that the design that switches in a fixed resistance/voltage may be better (less jerky) then just opening the circuit. The only way I know to check it is build it and try it. Maybe someone smarter can figure this out on paper and let us know.

I'm on a schedule to get both tractors done by the end of May, so that doesn't give me much time for experimentation.

You both have a great day.


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## blackpanther-st (Apr 4, 2009)

Jimdear2, how is the reaction time looking on your test rig? is it over shooting by much? or is it nice tight, the way we like it?


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## m38mike (Dec 27, 2008)

blackpanther-st,
Thanks a bunch for this schematic. I like what you've drawn. It's clean and effective. You were right, you did design a circuit using only one unit. 

I ordered a DPDT switch and a few SPDT switches. I plan on setting up both of the designs we've talked about here and see if I can make each style work. Once I see them work, then I'll figure out which one I'll use in the jeep. I've also got to figure out where I'll connect lights into each circuit to let me know that the switch has been tripped.


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## Jimdear2 (Oct 12, 2008)

blackpanther-st said:


> Jimdear2, how is the reaction time looking on your test rig? is it over shooting by much? or is it nice tight, the way we like it?


blackpanther-st,

Since I was using 12 volts the motor was not winding up that fast but once I put in the new relay it worked flawlesly over 50 times.

As far as worring that the tach shift light circuit might miss the trip point, not going to happen. 

Have you ever watched a video of a big high winding drag car going from 0 to 8000 rpm in a half second or so, the light does flash.

The low resistance in the relay I used lets even those quick pulses trip the circuit. 

Even if the pulse were not enough a friend who is also building an electric puller built an amplifier board. His tach had an in the meter LED shift light that didn't have enough push to trip my setup

I think we are pretty safe. I'm betting a couple of expensive motors on it.


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## blackpanther-st (Apr 4, 2009)

m38mike said:


> blackpanther-st,
> Thanks a bunch for this schematic. I like what you've drawn. It's clean and effective. You were right, you did design a circuit using only one unit.
> 
> I ordered a DPDT switch and a few SPDT switches. I plan on setting up both of the designs we've talked about here and see if I can make each style work. Once I see them work, then I'll figure out which one I'll use in the jeep. I've also got to figure out where I'll connect lights into each circuit to let me know that the switch has been tripped.


Mike, I'm glad I could help. I have used this basic circuit in the past, so when you mentioned what you wanted to do, it was just a mater of remembering it and applying it to your application. 

the nice thing about this circuit is that by changing just one connection you can have complete electrical isolation between your trigger circuit and your load circuit; ( we don't need that for your application, but for some applications it's critical.

As far as the trip indicator light goes, that is really easy  In my schematic the DPDT relay has one unused, normally open contact on the top set of contacts drawn; this will go positive 12V when the circuit has been triped and will disconnect when reset. just connect your indicator light positive here and indicator light negative to ground. (I am assuming an LED indicator, if incandescent then no polarity concern.)

This will work for both my trip type preference and jimdear2's, they really use the same circuit, the only thing that changes is where the interrupt is placed.


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## blackpanther-st (Apr 4, 2009)

> I think we are pretty safe. I'm betting a couple of expensive motors on it.


Cool ! 

Actually it was the main contactor which I was the most concerned about reacting fast enough. I am quite sure that it would be the slowest reacting component in this system. Not that much which we could do to correct it if the main contactor was too slow, so it is good to know it is working as we expected. 

still it is just a low voltage test; I know we are only talking about a few, actually could be as much as 10 or 12milliseconds for the contactor to react, but as I understand it some of these motors have ungodly rotational acceleration when run unloaded at full voltage. but from what you are reporting it sounds as if we stand a good chance of catching it before it gets too far above it's rating.

I think a good next test would be hook up a multimeter with a frequency reading and peak hold, and attach it to your transducer along with the rest of your setup. we could then gradually increase the voltage on each successive test and see just how much we swing past our mark before shutdown.


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## m38mike (Dec 27, 2008)

I'm looking forward to doing some actual tests with these switch systems in the vehicle, perhaps in a few weeks once the motor is back in. I'm hoping that with the motor connected to a flywheel, and possibly to the tranny in neutral that there will be enough resistance to acceleration to keep it from spinning up so fast that the switch can't take the power out of the acceleration quick enough to keep it from getting to destructive rpms. That's one reason why I've got the cutoff set for 500 below it's rated highest operable rpm. I figure there's probably a 1-2,000 rpm safety range above the highest rated rpm before it starts to fly apart. 

I plan to do some slow run-ups to make sure that the cutoff switch will cut it off at the set rpm. Then as I gain confidence I'll run it up faster to see how high it gets after cutoff. I'm guessing that with a connected load (tranny in neutral), that it can't run up too far above the set rpm limit. 

My thanks again to both of you, Jim and blackpanther-st, for your ideas in making this simple idea a reality. I wonder how many EV's are using this concept to protect their motors, or other parts, from destruction.


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## m38mike (Dec 27, 2008)

blackpanther-st,
I noticed in your diagram that you included a diode in the drawing between the rpm switch and the DPDT relay. I presume that it should be a Zener diode, but did you have an idea what capacity you think it should be? Maybe 12v 5a or 12v 1a? I was thinking that a 12v 5a diode would have plenty of capacity and still control the flow. I don't know anything about diodes so any advice here would be good.


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## blackpanther-st (Apr 4, 2009)

m38mike said:


> blackpanther-st,
> I noticed in your diagram that you included a diode in the drawing between the rpm switch and the DPDT relay. I presume that it should be a Zener diode, but did you have an idea what capacity you think it should be? Maybe 12v 5a or 12v 1a? I was thinking that a 12v 5a diode would have plenty of capacity and still control the flow. I don't know anything about diodes so any advice here would be good.



Mike this is actually just a rectifier diode to prevent the latched state of our circuit from damaging your RPM switch. Being that your switch works by grounding it's output lines I doubt that it is even necessary but I put it there just incase. 

The rectifier diode should be at least 1Amp but I would prefer a 3Amp, any thing above 5Amp would just be a total waste of a good rectifier. these generally start with 50 volts as the lowest blocking volts available, that's way more than enough as the system should never see more than 15 volts, (unless you are using a Chrysler alternator and regulator to charge your system battery. they always had the highest system voltage of any auto manufacturer.)

The rectifier diode has a polarity to it so if you are not sure about its orientation, temporaryly attach first on one end to our circuit, and ground the other end of the rectifier diode to see if the circuit trips; if it does it is correct, if not, flip it over and it should work then. When you have the correct orientation, permanently connect to our circuit and your RPM switch.

PS a Zenner Diode is designed to breakdown and pass current above a specific voltage and in this circuit that would work against us. they are most commonly used for regulation purposes and some clamping applications as well.


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## blackpanther-st (Apr 4, 2009)

Oh I forgot about your flywheel, yes that should help considerably to slow the unloaded acceleration down. a flywheel and pressure plate has a lot of rotational momentum.


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## Jimdear2 (Oct 12, 2008)

blackpanther-st said:


> Oh I forgot about your flywheel, yes that should help considerably to slow the unloaded acceleration down. a flywheel and pressure plate has a lot of rotational momentum.


Mike,

I was also thinking that if you try the rev limiter circuit into the throttle pot and let the relay operation frequency control the cycleing the flywheel may help a lot in smoothing out any jerkyness.

Jim


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## m38mike (Dec 27, 2008)

blackpanther-st, thanks for the diode update. Like I said, I don't know diodes so I appreciate the ideas and advice. 

Jim, I hadn't considered the flywheel effect on jerkyness, but you could be right. Now I'm getting really anxious to get that motor back in. 

On another note, I just got my LinkLITE gauge last night. there are about a dozen wires that get connected to the back of the gauge. That thing measures everything. If I program it right it would probably tell me how to cook hot dogs in the microwave! I put the gauge into my intrument cluster this morning before going to work. Looks good. Now I've got to get all the wires to all the right places. That's going to be quite a bundle. Now I just need to get my tachometer and I'm all set gauge-wise.


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## m38mike (Dec 27, 2008)

Well today I'm bummed. The LinkLITE gauge I thought would answer all my questions about what was going on with my EV - isn't going to work. What IS NOT described in the web pages about the LinkLITE that I looked at, is the fact that it's designed for 35 volts or less. It will not work on a 144v system. I discovered that last night when I read the installation instructions. Now I'm bummed. Guess I'll have to go get a voltmeter to replace it. DANG!! I hate when that happens.


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## Jimdear2 (Oct 12, 2008)

m38mike said:


> Well today I'm bummed. The LinkLITE gauge I thought would answer all my questions about what was going on with my EV - isn't going to work. What IS NOT described in the web pages about the LinkLITE that I looked at, is the fact that it's designed for 35 volts or less. It will not work on a 144v system. I discovered that last night when I read the installation instructions. Now I'm bummed. Guess I'll have to go get a voltmeter to replace it. DANG!! I hate when that happens.


Mike,

I remember reading about a monatoring system that was originally developed for electric bicycles. Everybody raved about it. It measured watts in and out and all kinds of stuff.

The only thing is I can't remember the name. It originally had a dumb geeky name and was renamed something like cycle analyst. That system sounds more like what you wanted.

Maybe someone else can supply the name.

Jim

*EDIT> It is called Cycle Analyst (Formally Known As Drain Brain) Here is the link.*

http://www.ebikes.ca/drainbrain.shtml

*End Edit*


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## m38mike (Dec 27, 2008)

Thanks Jim! That device is just what I was looking for. I've contacted them for more info, but their large screen Cycle Analyst looks like the monitoring circuit set I'm needing. I'll let you know what I find out.


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## blackpanther-st (Apr 4, 2009)

Jim I was just looking at that Cycle Analyst you posted the link for. It looks fairly impressive, But I am wondering if it can be configured to read high enough to deal with some of our high amp systems. He did say that the new models do more than the originals, but for the 750, 1000 and up systems, that would be a huge jump from the 100 amp originals. I am curious to see what Mike finds out. 

I would definitely consider this if it can handle my amperage, and I am aiming for something 750A+ for a controller.


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## Jimdear2 (Oct 12, 2008)

blackpanther-st said:


> Jim I was just looking at that Cycle Analyst you posted the link for. It looks fairly impressive, But I am wondering if it can be configured to read high enough to deal with some of our high amp systems. He did say that the new models do more than the originals, but for the 750, 1000 and up systems, that would be a huge jump from the 100 amp originals. I am curious to see what Mike finds out.
> 
> I would definitely consider this if it can handle my amperage, and I am aiming for something 750A+ for a controller.


Mike,
blackpanther-st,

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying this meter (or any other for that matter) is the complete answer.

When I was looking into these meter units I never found one that would do all of the things I needed or wanted.

I finally just said I'll just start with the basic Volt & Amp meters and a pad of paper with pencil and see what develops.

May be we should design our own. In fact I'm going to start a Combo Meter wish list thread and let people discribe what they want in a unit. After a while maybe some entriprising person can filter the list and design and market something.


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## m38mike (Dec 27, 2008)

I just got off the phone with the fine guys up in Vancouver BC where the Cycle Analyst is made. I'm impressed enough to send in my order for one of their large screen units. What I was told when I asked about it's amperage limit was that as long as you know what shunt you are using, and the ohm measurement for it, then you can program the CA for that resistance and the CA will handle any system up to 2,000 amps. It'll handle up to 200v. It can do the math to help figure out life-cycle costs. It can be used as a speedometer and a tachometer. It has some output circuits that can be triggered for low battery warnings and other things. 

At $150 plus shipping I think it's a good deal - enough so that I bought one. I just wish that the large screen version came with a case, even as an option. I'll have to fabricate something. I'm not cutting a 5x2 hole in my dash to mount it. I may make a face plate and hang it under the dash at a 45 degree angle. We'll see when it shows up. The warrantee was a little weak I thought. It's only 90 days. It seams they could cover it for a year. But with the measurements it does, the internal memory, the settable alarms, the compact size, and the already attached connector wires, I haven't seen anything else that is as capable. The web site said that "coming soon" would be a USB port so the data saved would be downloadable. I don't think that's a current feature.


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## blackpanther-st (Apr 4, 2009)

m38mike said:


> I just got off the phone with the fine guys up in Vancouver BC where the Cycle Analyst is made. I'm impressed enough to send in my order for one of their large screen units. What I was told when I asked about it's amperage limit was that as long as you know what shunt you are using, and the ohm measurement for it, then you can program the CA for that resistance and the CA will handle any system up to 2,000 amps. It'll handle up to 200v. It can do the math to help figure out life-cycle costs. It can be used as a speedometer and a tachometer. It has some output circuits that can be triggered for low battery warnings and other things.
> 
> At $150 plus shipping I think it's a good deal - enough so that I bought one. I just wish that the large screen version came with a case, even as an option. I'll have to fabricate something. I'm not cutting a 5x2 hole in my dash to mount it. I may make a face plate and hang it under the dash at a 45 degree angle. We'll see when it shows up. The warrantee was a little weak I thought. It's only 90 days. It seams they could cover it for a year. But with the measurements it does, the internal memory, the settable alarms, the compact size, and the already attached connector wires, I haven't seen anything else that is as capable. The web site said that "coming soon" would be a USB port so the data saved would be downloadable. I don't think that's a current feature.


At those Amp specs It definitely sounds worthy to me after reading all of the features this thing has. I would specificly ask them about a case, I know they made it for an experimental version of the large version. It is worth asking if you do not want to mod your dash.


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## m38mike (Dec 27, 2008)

While I'm waiting for some of the big parts to arrive, I've been working on some small parts. The first thing I added was the weather-tight plug that I'll use to connect with the extension cord. This will pass power to an outlet in the jeep. Then I'll plug the charger and battery heaters into that outlet.










This next photo shows the additions to all the electrical hardware that'll be under the driver's seat. I've added the small fan to blow air thru the heatsink fins under the controller. I've got the grey outlet box in place, but no outlets installed yet. Next to the outlet is the black programable rpm switch that will shut off the motor if it spins up too far.










I thought that since I've got all this electricity moving around me, and the possibility of an electrical fire is real, I thought I'd add a fire extinguisher to the new hardware attached to the jeep. With the precautions I'm taking in my new design, the chance of an electrical fire or short circuit is just about nill. Unless I happen to drop a wrench on top of the battery pack.


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## m38mike (Dec 27, 2008)

*MY MOTOR'S BACK!! Hooray for Netgain!* It was delivered yesterday. I'll spend time this weekend checking dimensions for the adapter that will connect the motor to the flywheel. Then next week I hope to get it into the machine shop so they can build the adapter. I've also got to redesign the bridge that will hold up the front end of the motor. Currently it's set up to use the rack under the batteries. I'd like for it to be an independent frame member so I can remove the battery rack without leaving the motor hanging.

My tach should be arriving today or tomorrow. When that gets here I'll be able to get it wired in, and the rpm sensor switch with it. I'm hoping that my step-start switch arrives early next week so I can get it connected in with the contactor.


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## m38mike (Dec 27, 2008)

I spent some time this weekend building the mount for my EV Analyzer. It came out pretty good, given the crude tools I used to make it. Only problem was that I didn't pay attention to the direction of the LCD screen when I marked the holes for the mounting screws. As it turns out I had the screen upside down. Now I have to take it all apart, weld in the old holes and drill new ones. This is what it looks like without paint on the mounting plate.









And here's a photo of the circuit board behind the screen. I'm not sure yet what I'll do to protect this board from dust and moisture.









I also made some measurements from the motor to the flywheel so I can have an adapter made that will connect the motor to the flywheel. That way I can still use the clutch. The motor and flywheel will go to the machine shop tomorrow.


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## m38mike (Dec 27, 2008)

Another progress update. I got my Tach and my High-voltage volt meter installed in the dash panel this weekend. Now I have wires hanging out all over the place. I also added a pair of lights to light up the speedometer, and a trio of lights to tell me what's going on with my motor rpm (that's in addition to the tach). Now I've got the fun task of sorting and combining all these wires into a useful wire harness. Some of this mess will be easy to hook up and clean up. Some will require long runs of wire to connect a gauge or light with some other circuit. One of the tricky parts will be making sure everything has a fuse somewhere in the line. 










I used a clear silicone adhesive to hold some of the lights in place. I've also started to color code some of the wires with colored electrical tape. I'm just glad that I made an electrical diagram of what should be wired to what. That's a big help in sorting out this black and red spagetti mess. That also tells me what color to color code the different long runs.


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## tj4fa (May 25, 2008)

You might be able to take a lot of your common (black) 12v - grounds and tie them to a common chassis ground point (maybe even on the back of the instrument panel itself) to reduce some of them running in harnesses all over the place and fuse the "hot" 12v + wires to the devices where you can get at them easily.


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## m38mike (Dec 27, 2008)

tj4fa,
that's a good idea. I'm thinking I'll simply make a ground loop of wire and tie everything that needs grounding into that. Directly below the place this panel mounts there are a pair of bolts holding my EV Analyzer in place. Those bolts provide a great grounding point, and they're only an inch or two from this panel. So many of the lighting wires are 30 ga that I think the best thing will be to solder them to my loop ground wire, and jacket the connection with heat shrink tubing. For all the dash lights I'll do the same thing, create a loop and tie the individual lights to the loop. then I can tie the loop to my light switch. 

I've got to be careful though, because some of my warning lights are set to have the ground completed by the switch, not the power in. Maybe I need to connect them first, then build the ground for everything else. 

Hhhmmm, I could end up with 3 loops, a ground loop, a lighting loop, and a power loop. Time to revisit my wiring diagram to see if I can reduce my wire runs and use some common wires or loops.


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## m38mike (Dec 27, 2008)

Here's another progress update. I got all the gauges mounted into the dash panel, and all the wires pulled into a pair of 1/2 inch wire looms. Here's a photo of the dash panel with the wires connected and bundled.









The wires are pulled together neatly and anchored so they shouldn't get pulled off the gauge or light. The yellow and red wires going off to the left will go to the light switch. The red wires on the right will connect directly to a fuse block. Now here's how the front looks with all the gauges, lights and switches in place.










As you can see, I don't have all my wires connected yet. In fact, my wife believes I have too many loose wires! No surprise there! Anyway, on the dash panel I've got a tach, a % power gauge, a voltmeter and an ammeter. The rectangle below the dash is my Cycle Analyzer, and I'm counting on it to really give me a good education on how my EV is performing. Now that the dash is pretty well sorted out, I've got to get working on the other end of all those wires.










WHAT A NIGHTMARE!! Fortunately I've got them bundled and tagged so I know which one goes where (I think). This mess will look a lot cleaner once I cut and connect each of these wires.


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## nheistand (Jun 2, 2009)

My Toyota Tercel has Impulse 9 motor and 12x8v batteries. I use the 4-speed trans in 2nd gear and it easily goes over 35mph. You may be using the wrong gear. With mine 2nd should be good for up to 40mph then 3rd should be good for 60mph. These motors work best with 3000 rpm or more? Try 2nd gear until over 40mph.


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## ruckus (Apr 15, 2009)

I'm not sure everyone who posts here really understands how gearing works. 1st gear is EASIER to push than 3rd gear. Period. Using 1st gear will NOT cause stress on your motor unless you over-rev it. However, it WILL put more stress on the drivetrain (tranny, shafts, axles) since you are multiplying the torque of the motor by more. 

I'll round the numbers to simplify: 1st gear in a Willys (I have a 59 wagon ) multiplies the torque by about 3, 2nd gear multiplies the torque by about 2, and 3rd gear does not multiply the torque at all (1:1).

Sooo, lets pretend your motor puts out 100ftlbs of starting torque. With the tranny in first gear it will output 300ftlbs to the transfercase. In 2nd gear it will output 200ftlbs, and in 3rd it will output 100ftlbs.

Because electic motors jproduce gobs of low-end torque (compared to the original ICE), they can get away with a 2nd gear start. BUT, 2nd gear will ALWAYS require more amps for a comparable start since the motor is getting less torque amplification (help) from the tranny.

As for the coupling, you Definately need a flexible coupling as is used by all industry everywhere (electric and iCE). Look up "lovejoy" they make many couplings, some which frequent ebay.

lastly, I recognize the bellhousing you used. I was considering buying one. Is it made by the same people as the coupler? If so, should I avoid it?

I really like your project and look forward to seeing all the bugs worked out. 

Cheers,
Ruk


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## m38mike (Dec 27, 2008)

Ruckus,
You're spot-on with the torque description. Good way to describe it.

The bell housing I have is original to the Willys Jeep. However the bell housing-to-motor collar was built by the same yahoo's that have caused me so much grief so far. I did mount it to the bell housing and checked to see if the motor mount was even close to centered on the transmission shaft. Amazingly it was. That despite the fact that 4 of 7 mounting holes had been rounded out so they would match the bell housing holes. Really poor quality construction. I welded in all the rounded holes and re-marked them to get re-drilled by the machinists. I also added the other 4 mounting holes (11 total) that they failed to include.

The basic design they used was good, although not thought out. It's twice as deep as it needs to be. And they created a solid connector instead of using a flexible one, and that lead to the catastrophic failure of my motor. Now I'm going back to using the clutch and flywheel. That'll give me a flexible connection that will accomodate some minor variances in alignment and centering between the motor shaft and the tranny shaft.


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## m38mike (Dec 27, 2008)

I got the motor back today, along with the adapter to connect the motor with the flywheel This first photo is the adapter sitting on the flywheel. The adapter was made from a solid 4 inch cylinder of aluminum. The hole for the motor shaft was drilled into the middle. Then a keyway was cut to match the key in the motor shaft. Then two set bolt shafts were drilled and tapped. Then they drilled and tapped for bolts to mount the flywheel to the adapter. By using the solid cylinder, all they had to do was cut to length, then drill and tap a bunch of holes. No welding, no balancing, just mount it up and go.









I've been doing lots of wiring over the last week, in between building and rebuilding the greenhouse and jeeping with friends. Here's where I am tonight. I've got 4 of the 5 relay units wired up. I've got one small fuse block filled up and the other one is half full. Once I've got the rest of the wires connected, then I'll go back through all of them and use zip ties to connect them into bundles going from here to there. That will take some of the chaos out of the confusion.










I've gotten to the point where I really hate the nylon-jacket connectors. They are so hard to crimp compared to the vinyl-jacket connectors. I won't buy any more nylon ones. Too bad I've got a hundred of them to use up.


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## Jimdear2 (Oct 12, 2008)

m38mike said:


> I got the motor back today, along with the adapter to connect the motor with the flywheel This first photo is the adapter sitting on the flywheel. The adapter was made from a solid 4 inch cylinder of aluminum. The hole for the motor shaft was drilled into the middle. Then a keyway was cut to match the key in the motor shaft. Then two set bolt shafts were drilled and tapped. Then they drilled and tapped for bolts to mount the flywheel to the adapter. By using the solid cylinder, all they had to do was cut to length, then drill and tap a bunch of holes. No welding, no balancing, just mount it up and go.


Mike,

Understand this is just my opinion, but an *aluminium* drive train coupler in an Off Road Vehicle.

I would think that all of the back and fourth hammering from rocks and ruts and rough ground would hammer that keyway slot into a trench quickly.

This coupler might last a while in a on road vehicle with a small moter But in the jeep . . . Uh Uh, no way, especially with that big motor. 

If you use low range, you will take all that feedback torque and multiply it. Remember when the motor is trying to turn thr drivetrain in one direction the ground conditions will be trying to turn it in the other and it all will meet right in that coupler. Big healthy clutches and transmissions go away under those conditions. 

My *opinion* is you should have another one made from steel.
BUT
Remember free advice is worth what you pay for it
Jim


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## blackpanther-st (Apr 4, 2009)

I have to say that I second Jimdear2s opinion on this one. also set screws on a load prone to torsional vibration are likely to work their way loose. While Ill be the first to admit that the older taperlock systems are problematic ( I know from experience at work) the newer double sided style being used by some EVers here look to be very reliable, and do not have the alignment problems that the older styles have. I got one for my rig and I cant wait to get it assembled. ( I need to finish my custom DE plate first).

----------------------------------

Adding to this, 

also bolts threaded in to aluminum have a higher tendency to loosen and digress quickly once they do start as compared to steel. thinking about that heavy flywheel bolted to your adapter I'd hate to see that thing break free at 5000 RPM!


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## Jimdear2 (Oct 12, 2008)

blackpanther-st said:


> also bolts threaded in to aluminum have a higher tendency to loosen and digress quickly once they do start as compared to steel. thinking about that heavy flywheel bolted to your adapter I'd hate to see that thing break free at 5000 RPM!


Blackpanther,

I totally missed that one. Thanks for the catch. 

Mike has had enough problems (But also some good) from suppliers, he sure doesn't need one of that class.

He could have that coupler duplicated using a good selection of taperlock components that would require only minor machine work. A large taper lock sprocket turned down to fit into the reciever socket of the flywheel and then drill in the bolt pattern. This then attached to the correct taper lock shaft clamp and he should be good to go.

Mike,

A question for you. Does your flywheel have a pilot bearing/bushing in it to support the transmission input shaft? Most of these bearings/bushings are pressed into the end of the crankshaft of the ICE, I have seen a very few mounted in the flywheel. 

Almost all of the older style RWD manual transmission use a two piece main shaft and require a bearing/support at the outboard end. (Some but very few AWD & FWD trans require it also)

If you do not have something to support the outboard end of the transmission input shaft, especially in a vehicle with a clutch, I will can guarentee you *WILL* have transmission problems. BIG problems like broken cases. (Those of you living on borrowed time don't bother to chime in, I do know what I am talking about) 

Saw this happen a few times when people would replace an automatic with a stick and not install a pilot bearing. BOOM and pieces everywhere.

Jim


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## blackpanther-st (Apr 4, 2009)

Jimdear2 said:


> Blackpanther,
> A large taper lock sprocket turned down to fit into the reciever socket of the flywheel and then drill in the bolt pattern. This then attached to the correct taper lock shaft clamp and he should be good to go.
> 
> 
> Jim


I almost went that way until I talked with Jim Husted of hi torque; It certainly is a feasible solution, but the double sided tapperlock I am mentioning is way better. I would recommend asking Jim about it. 

If I get a chance after work tonight I'll post a photo of it.


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## m38mike (Dec 27, 2008)

I appreciate the thoughts on that coupler. The machinist told me that this cylinder was not just aluminum, but a high strength alloy. How strong is it? I don't know. But since I tend to be a conservative driver, it will serve to get me on the road for now. I am concerned about the set screws backing off, and I'll be using lock-tite to hold them in place. The same with the allen screws holding the flywheel on. This was a simple design using available materials for a very good price, so I tried it. Like so many parts and ideas I'm installing in this conversion - it's an experiment.

I'm interested in the double sided taperlock that you mentioned. I doubt that this alloy adapter will be my long term solution, and I've got time to look and listen for what that solution might be. 

Jim, There is a pilot bushing in the center of the flywheel. The end of the tranny shaft fits inside the bushing. The pilot bearing for this vehicle slides in and out along the fluted part of the input shaft and presses the fingers of the friction plate in to release the clutch plate. 

On another note, I filed a small claims court suit against Pete Hansen and Evolve It Motors (the new name for Salida Conversions), claiming breach of contract. We were supposed to go to court next week. When he saw the court notice he packed his things and left town - for Florida! Now he's planning on re-opening his business in Sarasota using the same name. That makes it significantly harder to collect.


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## blackpanther-st (Apr 4, 2009)

Just figured I'd post this anyway and keep to my word. 












http://www.fennerdrives.com/keyless_bushings/b_loc_keyless_bushings.asp


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## m38mike (Dec 27, 2008)

I've been busy with lots of details, trying to get this project ready to drive in the local 4th of July parade. Yes, I think I'm that close to success. Here's some photos of what I've done lately. This first one is all the wiring and circuits under the driver's seat. I've got them bundled, taped, tagged, and zip tied. I've done some continuity checks, but no full circuit function checks yet. I need the full battery pack to do that. This looks much neater than it did a month ago! 









This next photo is the motor-to-flywheel adapter that I had made. It's a solid cylinder of aluminum alloy about 4 inch in diameter. The machine shop bored a 1-1/8 inch hole for the center to slide over the motor shaft. They cut a 1/4 inch keyway in this to match the one on the motor shaft. And they drilled and tapped two set screw holes to help hold it all in place. All the bolt holes in this face are used to bolt the flywheel to this adapter. 









I also had the machine shop redrill the mounting holes for the green motor-to-bellhousing collar in this next photo. Now they all match one of the bellhousing bolt holes exactly, instead of being rounded out or expanded the way Salida Conversions had left it. I've got the adapter slipped onto the motor shaft here, and the set screws are set in tight. The next step is to mount the flywheel, clutch plate, and pressure plate. Then I'm ready to slide it together with the tranny and bolt it in place. 









The adapter is mounted on the shaft about 1/32" away from the face of the motor. They should never touch, but if the shaft should move, it can't move far because this adapter will begin to rub the face of the motor. In the original installation there were only 4 bolts holding this green collar onto the motor. The motor is tapped for 8 bolts. I had the machine shop drill the other 4 holes for me. Thank goodness for engine hoists. This whole assembly is getting really heavy. It's over 250lbs now and will probably hit close to 300 when it's all together in the jeep.


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## blackpanther-st (Apr 4, 2009)

mike I am looking at your photos and I see that the motor shaft extends only about half way through your adapter bore. and I am assuming that this is the original and used flywheel; one thing I would strongly recommend at the very least would be to rebalance the flywheel before spinning this thing up. 

If there is *any* imbalance in the flywheel due to uneven clutch ware, the stress on that only half entered junction between your adapter and motor shaft will be exceptionally high.

If you have ever heard stories of what happens when turbine barrings fail, you would know why Jim and I are so concerned about the safety of this setup.


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## Jimdear2 (Oct 12, 2008)

m38mike said:


> The adapter is mounted on the shaft about 1/32" away from the face of the motor. They should never touch, but if the shaft should move, it can't move far because this adapter will begin to rub the face of the motor. In the original installation there were only 4 bolts holding this green collar onto the motor. The motor is tapped for 8 bolts. I had the machine shop drill the other 4 holes for me. Thank goodness for engine hoists. This whole assembly is getting really heavy. It's over 250lbs now and will probably hit close to 300 when it's all together in the jeep.


 
Mike,

I'm in agreement with Panther, only I'm going to suggest that you go MUCH MUCH further. 

I assume that the aluminium adapter you had made pretty much duplicates what the last (ahem) professional installer made up. (Sarcasm ment) I won't say it's screwed up, I would say it is a desaster that hasen't happened yet.

Now that I see all of the compomemts in the proper relationship I know why your motor shaft broke.

I would NOT put this together the way it is. First I would have your motor to flywheel adapter shortened until the motor shaft fits through 100 % of the adapter. 

Then, as Panther suggests have the flywheel balanced but do it with the adapter and pressure plate attached.

However much of the adapter they remove, section that much out of the Green Collar. This will in effect move the motor closer to the transmission. While your at it you can remove enough from the aluminium adapter to give you a little more clearance between the adapter and motor. 

If you leave it the way it is, all of that mass (flywheel, clutch disc Pressure plate) hanging unsupported WILL cause trouble eventually.

I know this will require relocating the motor mounts but it really should be done. The extra time spent now will save a lot of headaches later.

It seems that whereever you have gone in an corrected their work you've done a fine job. Where you are trying to reuse their stuff/designs . . . problems.

That's my advice. I think that others that have done conversions might agree. Fix it now while it's cheap wanit until it breaks again EXPENSIVE.


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

Jimdear2 said:


> I assume that the aluminium adapter you had made pretty much duplicates what the last (ahem) professional installer made up.


Hey Jim,

I've stayed out of this for a while now. Seems like you and blackpanther are giving Mike sound advice. But you might go back to post #27 to see what Mike had before. 

All this time, I still don't see how the motor is aligned to the tranny. That big green weldment shows me no sign of precision registers. What centers the motor, keeps it concentric and perpendicular?

Regards,

major


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## blackpanther-st (Apr 4, 2009)

major said:


> Hey Jim,
> 
> I've stayed out of this for a while now. Seems like you and blackpanther are giving Mike sound advice. But you might go back to post #27 to see what Mike had before.
> 
> ...


Major, 

Yes there is a big difference here, his original setup was direct with a low weight shaft adapter and alignment was likely the problem then. most of that has been corrected within reason, though a few alignment pins on final Assembly would help. 

The real issue here is all that high rotational mass combined with an improper attachment method is actually much more dangerous than the original setup!

If the thing should menage to break loose, I see a very high potential for it to tare off the input shaft of the transmission, and if it succeeds at that, it is nearly eminent that it will explode clean through the tranys aluminum bell housing and likely the vehicle body as well.  

There is probably well over 20 pounds of metal in that flywheel, most of it near the periphery; at nearly 5000RPM thats an incredible amount of energy to try and stop. (The peripheral velocity is some where in the order of 200MPH)

Also see what imbalance adds up to here, http://www.calctool.org/CALC/phys/newtonian/centrifugal 

I mentioned turbines before, some one from one of the paper mils near me told me about a power turbine that seizeed a bearing there many years ago; granted it was much larger, but the blade disk broke out of the housing, went through the wall of the mill, flew across more than 250 feet of parking lot and demolished 3 cars before comming to a stop!


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

blackpanther-st said:


> Yes there is a big difference here, his original setup was direct with a low weight shaft adapter and alignment was likely the problem then. most of that has been corrected within reason,


Hi panther,

Corrected how?



> The real issue here is all that high rotational mass combined with an improper attachment method is actually much more dangerous than the original setup!


I don't disagree one bit. But alignment is still essential.

Regards,

major


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## m38mike (Dec 27, 2008)

You raise some interesting ideas that I need to consider. I agree that a spinning mass of flywheel and pressure plate could reek havoc if they're not balanced. On inspection they appear to be in original condition, no pieces missing, no dents or damage. When put together and balanced on a ball in the center pilot bushing, they are not heavy to any one side. It remains pretty much horizontal. I know that's a crude test but it tells me that there is no big imbalance to that assembly. I'm going back to my machine shop on Saturday to talk about the next issue and I'll ask them to check the balance for me.

The next issue you bring up is the length of the adapter and the collar. The concern is that the motor shaft only extends half way through the adapter. By leaving the adapter and collar as they are, I'm keeping the motor about 1.5 inches farther away from the transmission than it has to be. I'm also suspending the flywheel and pressure plate that much farther out from the motor bearing that will carry their weight. So if I shorten both the adapter and the collar by 1.5 inches, I will reduce the torque load on the motor bearing. I will also move the spinning mass of the flywheel/pressure plate closer to the shaft that's supporting it. That all makes sense. I don't know if my machinist can cut the collar and rebuild it keeping the current allignment. I know he can shorten the adapter.

On the allignment point, the motor plate and the bellhousing match plate in this collar are as close to perfectly parallel as we can measure. The tranny shaft is perpendicular to the match edge of the bell housing, so it will be parallel to the motor shaft. Before I took the collar to the machine shop to have them redrill all those rounded out holes, I mounted the collar by itself to the bell housing. I measured and marked cross hairs on the center of the motor plate, where the motor shaft will extend, then measured that against the alignment of the tranny input shaft. As I expected, it was off. close but off. I reset the collar on the bell housing and rechecked. This time I was on center. That is when I marked all the holes to match the bellhousing. There are no pins, but all the bolts just barely slide through the bellhousing holes, and the holes in the collar are drilled to be just barely open enough for the bolts. When I checked to see if they all matched up I could not move the collar when any 2 or 3 bolts were in place. My expectation is that the clutch plate will adjust for any small difference in allignment that may exist at this point. That was one of the reasons for going back to a clutch. That and saving my 1940's technology synchro gears.


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## Jimdear2 (Oct 12, 2008)

major said:


> Hey Jim,
> 
> I've stayed out of this for a while now. Seems like you and blackpanther are giving Mike sound advice. But you might go back to post #27 to see what Mike had before.
> 
> ...


Major,

Thanks for chiming in, I was beginning to wonder if I wasen't going off at a right angle and no one wanted to get in the middle.

Your right, I made an assumption. When Mike said he had all of the holes redone at a machine shop I assumed he had alignments taken care of. I assumed (theres that word again) that some if the holes in the adapter were for alignment pins. When I said they duplicated the adapter I somehow got it in my head that he had previously had a clutch installed.

I suppose we should ask Mike about the alignment. Whenever he has redone something he seems to do quite a bit of research. He might have ahd it trued up and just not mentioned it.

I do stand behind what I said in my previous post, there is too much unnecessary distance between the trans and motor. That distance will tend to magnify any miss alignment or imbalance. Then with a heavy flywheel, with all that unsupported distance just going over a heavy bump could cause enough movement to start a resonont flexing.

I hope he doesn't let the fact he wants to show the jeep in the 4th of July parade persuade him to bypass fixing things right.

Mike, how about it, has the necessary alignments been done. There should be a true concentric centerline through the motor shaft and the transmission mainshaft. If you dont have it very close (a few thousands) you will eventually experiance another failure.


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## m38mike (Dec 27, 2008)

Well, Jimdear2, blackpanther, and Major,

I sure wish I had talked with you guys before I spent hundreds of dollars creating an aluminum paper weight and a green rifle target. I talked with George at Netgain to see what he thought about leaving it all 1.5 inches out from the end of the motor shaft to the flywheel. He said what you said, "Don't hang the flywheel that far out from the shaft." He also said,"Use a taperlock, not a set screw to hold it together."

I talked with my machine shop and they could probably build me a taperlock adapter, but they were not so sure they could rebuild the collar. They don't do welding, they do machining. So now I need to search out someone who can build, or rebuild, a good collar for my motor. 

Does anyone out there have any suggestions??


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

m38mike said:


> So now I need to search out someone who can build, or rebuild, a good collar for my motor. ??


Hi mike,

Most guys call it an adaptor plate. And a few make their own. One which is welded up steel like yours is uncommon. Most are machined from aluminum billet, like one inch thick. Sometimes two aluminum plates are joined together for a thicker adaptor. Such aluminum stock comes in really flat and parallel on the surfaces. I never could see how the unmachined surfaces of your steel weldment could be parallel. You might look into that approach. Then everything is mill work.

Regards,

major


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

m38mike said:


> Does anyone out there have any suggestions??


Check out http://www.canev.com/KitsComp/Components/Adapter page.htm 

I think these are machined aluminum castings.

major


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## Zukiru (Sep 22, 2008)

I'm not much help but that vehicle is cool as all heck!


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## blackpanther-st (Apr 4, 2009)

Mike I am not suggesting for you to do what I am doing because it would be very expensive for you to have it machined, I have about 40 hours in to this doing it myself on an undersized lathe, but it may give you some ideas. 

Follow the link in my signature to my garage entry and look at the last few photos. 
what I have done is instead of using an adapter collar or spacing shims, is I have remanufactured the motors DE plate with its own bell housing, custom fit to my application. the adapter plate is just flat plate between the motor and trany bell housing.

I am going direct with a clutch spring hub assembly, but the same thing can be done with the whole clutch and pressure plate.


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## Jimdear2 (Oct 12, 2008)

m38mike said:


> Well, Jimdear2, blackpanther, and Major,
> 
> I sure wish I had talked with you guys before I spent hundreds of dollars creating an aluminum paper weight and a green rifle target. I talked with George at Netgain to see what he thought about leaving it all 1.5 inches out from the end of the motor shaft to the flywheel. He said what you said, "Don't hang the flywheel that far out from the shaft." He also said,"Use a taperlock, not a set screw to hold it together."
> 
> ...


Mike,

You have made a wise decision, *Do It Right The First Time * It's a real bummer that the outfit that screwed up the first conversion didn't.

Major has put you onto a good link.  From the looks of their product the outfit really seems to have their act together. They also are using taperlocks on many of their adapter sets. 

As one posibility, I would contact them and ask if they have anything for your vehicle also ask if they have the measurements to make you something custom. You might end up sending them a bell housing and a lot of measurements to get it done right.

Another possibility, make a paper tracing of your bell housing and send it off to Canadian Electric Vehicles. Willy's may have used an off the shelf transmission and cast their blocks to match. Their may already be an adapter made for something else that will work.

Another possibility, if CEV don't or can't, then ask if the can recommend anyone. 

Another possibility, is there a EV club anywhere in your area (I realize the word area out there can cover a lot of square miles both horizontially and verticlly (spelling?). Club members who have sucssefully done a conversion could be a great help.

Another possibility, at one time installing a V8 into old jeeps was popular. Look for adapter plates for things like small block chevy. Combining the dimensions from these and your stuff might get you in the ball park for a custom plate. Heck you might be able to modify an old v8 to jeep adapeter to work.

Finally, Research this site look at the adapters members have done. Search for others who have done jeeps.

A last point of information for Major, A weldment like that can be brought in to parallel by blanchard grinding. At this point I don'r know if it is worth trying to fix what is there though. I think best he starts from scratch and DO IT RIGHT.

Hope something above helps


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## blackpanther-st (Apr 4, 2009)

Mike, I think that both Major and Jimdear2have made some good suggestions. The adapters Major mentioned look good, and there are several other companies doing similar work. most will do a custom plate if they do not already have what you need in production. 

Most bolt patterns are on file somewhere, though some are difficult to find; If at all possible use something ready made or done from official measurements on file. the paper trace can work in a pinch, but it is really a last resort, and I would definitely verify the alignment when it is done with paper. 

If every thing was done from good measurements, the following probably won't be necessary, but if done from a paper tracing, a few good sized clevis pins in snug holes can do an excellent job of holding the alignment on the facing plane if the bolt holes are not up to the job. most ICE setups use a similar hollow dowel pin around two or more of the mounting bolts for precision. 

With the clevis pins you can bolt it up first, but not full tight, ( preferably out of the vehicle and vertical) and run the motor on 12V, fine tune your alignment till it sounds good and smooth. (we are talking about moving only a few thousands here) when all is good snug the bolts and make sure it still sounds good; if it does then drill holes for your clevis pins and drive them in. ( the hole should be small enough that the pin needs to be hammered in. they are made of spring steal and are meant to compress.)

Also worth mentioning is that some older bell housings can be removed from the face of the transmission, I don't know if this is the case with yours, but if so that may be an easy way to send it to the adapter manufacturer for accurate measurements.


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## m38mike (Dec 27, 2008)

I'm so depressed. Not only will I not be able to haul the Vets in the 4th of July parade, but it looks like it'll cost me close to $1,000+- to get it done right. And no-one I've talked with yet has any idea what my Willys transmission and bell housing look like, much less have an adapter already designed for it. So I've got to ship out my tranny and bell housing so someone can scan it to design/build a good adapter plate. (sigh)

Trying hard to find the bright side in this, I realized that by replacing the welded adapter I currently have, I will have replaced or rebuilt every single piece that I got from Salida Conversions. Know that, I don't think that anything else can go wrong! 

I'm sure when I begin putting together my book on how I did this and what not to do, this last event will play a prominent part.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Wow, this site is awesome! I am learning so much just reading and observing the projects others have going. I have been wrestling with this issue myself, though I haven't started on either piece yet. My biggest problem has kind of been confirmed here. I had the feeling the machinist wasn't realizing the seriousness of getting these two components right. The guy I have been dealing with has a doctorate in engineering, works for one of the largest companies on the planet (day job) developing prototype parts, and has his own home shop.

At first, I found his "no problem, I can do that" attitude reassuring. after a while I noticed that people on this site were pointing out potential problems he had never even mentioned. When you tell a machinist you need a coupler machined to connect two shafts that will spin at a relatively high rpm, they should be asking a whole lot of questions about alignment and concentricity.

Because my vehicle is so light, I am considering just eliminating the transmission and running direct drive (driveshaft to a solid rear end). Before that, I was working on a custom bellhousing. I was going to have it cast in 356 aluminum then have the mating surfaces, registers, and bolt patterns, machined to ensure concentricity and alignment.

You could accomplish the same thing for your Jeep with an aluminum or steel weldment, as long as you have it machined *after* welding. One thing I would insist on, that you don't seem to have now, is alignment pins. I understand you point about having the holes drilled to have a pretty tight fit with the bolts, but that's still not as good as a true alignment pin. When you separate factory engine and transmissions you often need some type of pry bar to start the process because the fit is so tight. That frees the bolts to serve their primary purpose, which is keeping the pieces locked together.


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## m38mike (Dec 27, 2008)

Todd,
One thing I learned early about 1940's auto technology was that sometimes a little sloppy is OK. Since both the engine block and the bell housing have bolt sleeves, not just bolt holes to hold the parts together, Willys felt that was good enough. And in fact it is. 60 years of service proves that point. The other feature that I find interesting is the fact that the tranny input shaft is not in a rigid mount, but it can float. At the end of the shaft it can drift in a 1 inch circle, and it's all good. No leaks, no failure, no grinding, no worries. That allows some flexibility for locating the flywheel. The center of the flywheel has a bronze bushing that the tranny shaft slips into. That makes the input shaft rigid with respect to all the other parts, and with very little attention, that configuration has lasted for decades.

On the good news side of things, a friend of mine in Ohio who is a machinist and an engineer has offered to tackle the hub and adapter plate problem for me. The bonus for me here, is that he is also very familiar with old Willys Jeeps, since he owns one himself. I've shared the lessons and advice that you all have shared with me, so he doesn't have to repeat my mistakes. I am so appreciative of all the good folks who are keeping me learning and moving ahead with this project.


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## blackpanther-st (Apr 4, 2009)

Interesting, now that you mention that the input shaft has that ability to move, obviously it is only supported by a rear barring and the pilot bushing. every thing we mentioned about doing your new setup should still be good, (Just make sure they put in a pilot bushing and position it correctly depth and center.) but this does change some of the theory on why Salida's setup failed.

I should mention that just because the input shaft has that much room to move does not mean that it is OK to run out of position; yes there is a little more room for error but for one the two shafts still have to share the same axes straight on or a flexing issue will stress something at the weakest point. a small amount can be absorbed by the spline coupling and or clutch spider. The second issue is that the further out of alignment it is run, the more ware you are putting on your input gears in the trany; It wont fail right off, but it will shorten it's life considerably.

That sounds like good news with your friend in Ohio!


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## m38mike (Dec 27, 2008)

What we're going to try to do is emulate the engine crank shaft with the motor shaft. And since the flywheel will still be in the mix, then the tranny shaft will still be supported by the bushing in the center of the flywheel. 

I think Salida failed because they used too rigid of a connector, and the plate that the motor was mounted on was not truely perpendicular to the axis of the shafts. At lease not of the tranny shaft. It still amazes me that the motor shaft broke, but there is no apparent damage to the tranny shaft or bearings. I've got to believe that they must have dropped that motor at some time to start the break, and simply would not confess, or make it right.

Now that my friend is turned on to design and build the hub and adapter plate, I'm focusing my attention to getting the rest of the lights wired, and creating a cover for the back rack of batteries. 

Soon now - Soon. I can smell success!


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## m38mike (Dec 27, 2008)

Quote from Jeff, the guy making my hub and adpapters:

Well, if I can make a final suggestion, I think we should use this configuration:















(_image not transfered - I'll fix that later)_
In this example, the hub is 1.875" long. There is a 1/16" space between it and the motor. The end of the tranny shaft sticks into the motor spindle by 1/16" since the the tranny shaft has a radius on the edges anyway, I don't think this would be a problem. What this does for me, is it make the total thickness of the two adapter plates 2 inches.









Now I would be able to make this ring, and adapter plate 1" thick each. I have material to do that.
(_image not transfered)_
The center hole is large enough for the hub to pass through so you can bolt the hub to the motor, bolt the motor to the adapter ring, and then bolt the adapter ring to the adapter plate.

Since we are leaving a 1/16" gap between the hub and the motor we need to make sure that the hub is SECURELY fastened to the motor spindle. When you press in you clutch pedal, the force is going to want to shove the hub into the motor.

The hub design would end up like this:








_(image not transfered)_
My reply to Jeff:

I can't see your images (dang filters!) but from your description I know what you have designed and Yes, I think that's the way we should go. Everything fits tight without causing problems. I can work on the hub before I have to bolt up the plates. The two shafts are as close as they can get without touching. The flywheel is very close to the motor/bearings. It does a great job of duplicating the original Willys configuration. It'll have the strength to resist the lateral thrust of the clutch being engaged. And built to these tolerances, I really don't think it'll wobble too bad at all!


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Two things that caught my attention:

The drawings don't show a pilot bearing to support the transmission input shaft. Looks like it would be easy to incorporate into the hub.
Is the aluminum stock that's going to be used for the adapter plates over an inch thick? The mating surfaces really should be machined to be certain they are perpendicular to the shaft axis. I would want to start with at least 1.125" stock, so it can be surfaced on both sides.


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## Jimdear2 (Oct 12, 2008)

Mike,

Now you are on the right track. The design looks to be exactly what is needed. 

There is mention of concern about the axial force created when the clutch is depressed. This was discussed in another thread and it was determined that the bearings used in the EV specific motors can handle this load. The bearing numbers and engineering specs were researched and found to be satisfactory.

The hub must be supported against the inner race of the drive end motor shaft bearing so it will not slip down the shaft. A common spacer tube cut to the right length will handle that.

Like others I would prefer to see you use a taperlock type hub since you plan to use the clutch, but the set screw type should be adiquite as long as you use a spacer between the drive end bearing's inner race and your hub.

I think you will be pleased with the results. 

A couple of final notes; 

Either use locktite or jam screw on your hub's set screws or do both.
It wouldn't hurt to have the clutch, flywheel and hub balanced as an assembly. Everything will be smoother and quieter.

Good luck and keep us informed.

Note for toddshotrods,

The pilot bearing for this setup is in the flywheel. Lots of older vehicles pressed a pilot bushing or bearing into the flywheel.


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## blackpanther-st (Apr 4, 2009)

Mike, over all this looks like a good plan, but as Jim said, A taper lock in that hub would be much better; for all this machine work it is well worth the few more bucks to get this final step right. actually by the time you figure in the machining costs for the set screws and keyway it may be very close in cost. 

Also you can save a step or two and potential loosening by using one set of bolts through both the adapter plate and ring at the same locations to the motor, instead of bolting one to the other first and then to the motor.

PS sorry this did not work out for the fourth, but I am glad to see that the Vets will not be in harms way from rushing through this; they have had more than their share danger while protecting our Great Country.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Jimdear2 said:


> ...
> Note for toddshotrods,
> 
> The pilot bearing for this setup is in the flywheel. Lots of older vehicles pressed a pilot bushing or bearing into the flywheel.


Gotcha. I also meant to say, glad to see this coming together for you m38mike.


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## blackpanther-st (Apr 4, 2009)

toddshotrods said:


> Two things that caught my attention:
> 
> The drawings don't show a pilot bearing to support the transmission input shaft. Looks like it would be easy to incorporate into the hub.
> Is the aluminum stock that's going to be used for the adapter plates over an inch thick? The mating surfaces really should be machined to be certain they are perpendicular to the shaft axis. I would want to start with at least 1.125" stock, so it can be surfaced on both sides.


If it is 1" plate stock it should be parallel well within spec unless it has been badly mishandled. Plate stock should have better accuracy for consistent thickness and therefor it's parallel surfaces than most machinists would even be able to duplicate.


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## m38mike (Dec 27, 2008)

Thanks guys, yeah I feel much better about this setup too. And to address the potential to slip the hub back against the motor, this is the solution that Jeff came up with:
"I also added a step in the hub that will only allow the hub to side down on the motor spindle only 1-7/16" leaving 1/16" clearance between the motor housing and the hub."

This design allows him to use 1" plate aluminum so the surfaces are perfectly parallel. And since all his cutting/boring/processing machines are CAD controlled, I have few concerns about not getting it right if it's right in his drawings. 

I couldn't get the drawings posted to this thread last night because our service provider for our home got hit by lightning. they should be up again today. 

Just to confirm, we do have a bronze bushing in the center of the flywheel that carries the tip of the tranny shaft and keeps it in line. We felt that since the hub will be machined to exactly match the step in for the bolt ring in the flywheel, that once the hub and flywheel are bolted up, they will act as one piece, and the bushing will take care of the tranny shaft. That's the way Willys did it 60 years ago. 

We talked about the taper lock idea, and decided that for the extra expense, and the chance that I'd mess it up that we are OK with the set screws. We'll have 4 set screws in the hub, 2 on the key and 2 on the shaft. I'm also going to drill a dimple in the shaft at the point that each set screw contacts it. Maybe 1/16". Not quite a 'Dutchman's key' but just as effective. That should help keep it from moving. And since we'll have a step to keep it from moving back, and we'll have the clutch assembly pushing it back to keep it from moving forward, I really don't think I have to worry about it going anywhere even if it didn't have any set screws. And if Jeff bores to a tight tolerance, I shouldn't have any wiggle when I slide the hub on the shaft. In fact I may have to drive it onto the shaft. So I think it'll be OK. I've been wrong before (just once or twice!) but I have confidence that this time we've got it spot-on.

The other American Legion guys are long-faced that I won't have it up for the parade on Saturday, but there's always next year.


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## m38mike (Dec 27, 2008)

Here's a link to the image of the hub:

[URL="http://i455.photobucket.com/albums/qq276/jpetrowich/electro-wiillys/electrowillys24.jpg"]http://i455.photobucket.com/albums/qq276/jpetrowich/electro-wiillys/electrowillys24.jpg

I hope this link works for you. If you look in that folder, You'll see the other drawings that Jeff has created for this project.[/URL]


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## Jimdear2 (Oct 12, 2008)

m38mike said:


> I shouldn't have any wiggle when I slide the hub on the shaft. In fact I may have to drive it onto the shaft. So I think it'll be OK. I've been wrong before (just once or twice!) but I have confidence that this time we've got it spot-on.
> 
> The other American Legion guys are long-faced that I won't have it up for the parade on Saturday, but there's always next year.


Mike,

Sounds like you have all of the potential alignment and/or movement problems covered.

A caution (probably not needed) but if you need to drive the hub on ensure that the shaft is supported so the force is directed through the shaft to the support and not directed through the bearings. 

It would be better to ask your friend for a slip fit, the dimpled set screw should be enough to keep everything in place. 

Even if you use a slip fit ensure that there puller reliefs or some method of pulling the hub off the shaft if it ever should be required. Nothing like destroying your hub because you didn't think it would ever need to come off

It's nice to see someone getting things done really right "and" elegant as well, instead of Make Do and Good Enough like I'm usually required to do.

Ya I'm jelous.

YouTube the roll out when done. 

Lots of flags and banners. Maybe the American Legion guys could give you a salute


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## blackpanther-st (Apr 4, 2009)

Mike, I like the idea of the shoulder step in the bore so it can only slide on so far. I was actually thinking of that when I wrote last night; but as you know I was leaning towards the tapper hub. this sounds good though. I wouldn't bother with the dimples; the keyway and the shoulder step in the bore will cover everything the dimples would attempt to do.

Do make sure the bore is tight though; does not need to be excessive, but at least a snug slight interference. I say this because the set screws are going to try to put the hub off center as you tighten them, and a snug fit will prevent them from doing that. also the tighter the fit, the less tendency there will be for the set screws to loosen.

Jim is right about not driving on to the barrings; if it takes anything more than a light tapping to drive it on, then back the com end of your motor shaft against something solid. depending on your motor, it may have a tail shaft or an axes hole for a tachometer sending unit. if it does not have either, pull your brushes up and carefully take the com plate off to expose the end of the shaft. just be careful to avoid dinging or scratching the soft copper com bars.


Looking at the design, I don't see that there is a problem if you have to pull the hub off; it is open in the center and a gear puller should grab the edge just fine. if your motor shaft has a threaded hole like mine, just run a short bolt in before pulling, so you have something to push against.

This is looking good and I think that you will be very happy with this setup.


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## m38mike (Dec 27, 2008)

OK, let's see if we can get a couple of the diagrams to come up on the screen for everyone to see. First the hub:









If you look close at the center bore you can see the shoulder that will be left inside to keep the hub from sliding down the shaft and against the motor housing. 

Now here's how the whole thing will look.









As you can see, the tranny shaft will just barely fit inside the end of the motor shaft. With this tight fit, if it does connect then there will not be much of either shaft touching the other. This also gets the flywheel just about as close to the motor shaft and bearings as it possibly can. 

And here's the concept for the motor mounting plates.









Since the contact edge of the bell housing is round, we decided to simply make the contact plate round too. The black cylinder is supposed to be my motor. There is a small extension on the top edge to cover the hole for the starter. Behind this plate is another plate, also round, but the same diameter as the motor. The two plates are both one inch thick. and the center hole in each plate is large enough to pass the hub through the center. This way I can mount the hub onto the shaft, then I can mount both of these plates. That gives me much better access to the hub to tighten the set screws.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Thanks for sharing all this, and being willing to discuss and answer questions. I learned a lot here and made some important decisions about my own project from that knowledge. I was set on a one-piece adapter plate until I saw the CAD drawings of your two-piece setup. It made me realize the advantages of doing something similar. Also, your hurdles to get a good coupling between the motor and transmission helped me understand the importance of this connection, and really helped me make some critical decisions there as well.

Hope everything comes together and works great for you, and have a great holiday weekend!


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## fritzgutten (Jul 4, 2009)

Mike, 
Just a thought, instead of leaving a lip to run up against the end of the shaft, how about leaving an extension to run up against the motor's bearing race?


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## m38mike (Dec 27, 2008)

Fritzgutten,

I could do what you suggest, if I had the race to be up against. But there is only about 1/4 inch between the shaft and the face of the motor, and that's filled with a seal. So I have nothing to push against. That's why we're using the shoulder inside the bore to keep the hub from sliding back.


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## fritzgutten (Jul 4, 2009)

Gotcha Mike, hadnt realized they put a shaft seal on it.
keep us posted!


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## m38mike (Dec 27, 2008)

Here's a few photos of the NEW and IMPROVED hub and bellhousing plate being built today. 
The hub started by looking like this:









Then it got cut to size:









And it was drilled and tapped;









And it's done! Now we move on to the bellhousing adapter plate. First we find a big sheet of aluminum and mount the bellhousing onto the plate.









Then the center hole is marked and cut out, and all the mounting holes are drilled.









The bellhousing shape was traced onto the plate, then cut with a bandsaw.









Now we've got two of the three needed pieces to connect the motor to the jeep. The last piece will be a round spacer cut from 1" aluminum plate. It will be between the motor and this aluminum plate.

And on another note, I finally got all of the 12v wiring done. All my lights work as they should. HOORAY!! I've got a problem with my start-up timer not turning off one of the lights, and my cycle analyzer isn't starting up. So tomorrow I'll check the wiring on both of those items. But everything else seems to be lighting up and starting up just fine. The real test will be when the motor gets installed and I get to spin some wheels!!! 

Not long now!!


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## blackpanther-st (Apr 4, 2009)

Mike, this looks really good! 

I wish I had a band saw for metal to do mine; I had to use a sawsall instead, but it still came out good considering. my motor and transmission are together and in the motor cradle with the CV shafts installed and it all sounds good running. Sunday a friend is going to help me lift it in the car if the weather is good.


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## fritzgutten (Jul 4, 2009)

looking good mike!


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## miniUMM (Jun 25, 2009)

Good job !
It looks very very good, keep the photos comming


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## nheistand (Jun 2, 2009)

With my Toyota I use 2nd gear up to 40mph, then 3rd gear for above 40.
You need to let your motor get up to the rpms where it makes more power. I would try 2nd gear and never shift up until over 40mph.


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## m38mike (Dec 27, 2008)

The box with my newly machined parts arrived at my office Tuesday, and as soon as I got home I went straight out to the shop to bolt the parts all together. The first part I pulled out was the hub. And the first thing I tried to do was slip it onto the motor shaft. Tried is the operative word here. I also tried using a wooden mallet to drive it on. No luck. We talked and figured out that I will have to heat the hub to get it expanded enough to fit over the shaft. That ought to garantee a snug fit!!









So next I placed it on the center of the flywheel to see if it fit there. BINGO!! A perfect fit! It slipped right into the inset in the flywheel with no room to spare, and no movement either. 









So the inside's tight but the outside's just right. 
Next I tried the motor adapter plate. I lined up all the hex-drive screws and voila! It bolted right up!









And since the motor plate and the bell housing plate came bolted together, I didn't have to check to see that they matched. So now I needed to see if the bell housing plate and the bell housing were a match. OUCH!! I found 2 problems as soon as I bolted it up.









As you can see, the shape of the model bell housing and mine are different. I've got a gap where my starter used to be. I'm not sure how to close it up, but I definitely want it closed. The other problem is the hole next to the starter space. It doesn't line up with the bolt hole in my bell housing. All of the other bolt holes line up fine. So the bolt hole is not a critical issue.

What we figured out to do here is to send this adapter back to my friend and he will weld on a piece that will cover the rest of the bell housing, and then reshape the outside to match my bell housing. I guess I should have sent him a template right from the start. Oh well, live and learn.


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## Jimdear2 (Oct 12, 2008)

High Mike,

Your freind does nice work.

Since you will be sending things back for rework anyway. A couple of suggestions. 

Make sure that the end of the motor shaft isn't mushroomed slightly. A bit of time with a good micrometer will tell you. 

Also be sure that it isn't the motor shaft that is oversized rather then your coupler undersized.

Be sure about the press fit dimensions. Usually a long press fit is honed and is very accurate. 

Doing a heat and install tight fit on a keyed shaft can be difficult. Getting something halfway on and then have it cool and stick can be damaging to fix. Remember also you might have to remove it someday. If you can go to a slip fit you might be better off.

I don't see any alignment or dowel pins on you two motor plates. to ensure concentricity I would have you freind make up an installation alignment sleeve. 

The ID of the sleeve would be a slip fit on the motor shaft and the OD is a slip fit into the center bore of the two plates. You would first intall the first plate to the motor which centers on the shoulder on the DE cover. You would then slide the sleeve over the motor shaft and into the remaining depth of the bore of the first plate till it butts against the DE cover. When yoi install the second plate it centers on the OD of the sleeve. You then tighten the bolts and remove the sleeve. That should perfectly center the adapter plates to the motor

Last point, the last step before installing the plates is to flat file the faces to remove any last minute imperfections.

Hope this helps


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## m38mike (Dec 27, 2008)

Thanks Jim,
and you're right about a lot of what you said. Just to be sure, I did check the shaft and it is correctly turned at 1.125 inches diameter for the whole length that's exposed. The inside diameter of the hub is also 1.125 inches. That's why I can't slip fit it. Jeff said that with the torque and weight involved, he felt I needed a very tight fit. I can't disagree. 

The only piece going back is the bell housing adapter so we can fix the problem with it not covering the starter opening. 

And I very much agree, Jeff does wonderful work. With the tight tolerances in the bolt holes, and the precision in his machine work (gotta love CNC machines!) there will be no movement of anything bolted to those plates. And it will all be in line as it should be. As long as I tighten everything down to better than 60 ft/lbs I should be good.


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## Harold in CR (Sep 8, 2008)

Just be aware of driving that coupler on with a hammer, of sorts. The motor bearings are not designed for that rough treatment.

I would think an expandable HELL, I can't remember the name of the tool. I have several sizes in my shop. It's used for scraping a bore just a tad larger, similar to a hone.


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## Jimdear2 (Oct 12, 2008)

Harold in CR said:


> Just be aware of driving that coupler on with a hammer, of sorts. The motor bearings are not designed for that rough treatment.
> 
> I would think an expandable HELL, I can't remember the name of the tool. I have several sizes in my shop. It's used for scraping a bore just a tad larger, similar to a hone.


Harold,

I think you are thinking of an expandible reamer. It's very hard to use a straight blade reamer in a hole with a keyway the cutter (in my limited experiance) catches on the edge of the keyway.

A micrometer sizing hone might do it. But I think Mike wants to go with the tight fit

Mike,

I have done this type of job before and screwed up a few. Below is my list of preparetions. Please learn from my mistakes. The thing may just jump togeather but it's best to be prepaired as I have learned.

Prior to assembly 
1.) I would take crocus cloth and polish the shaft. 
2.) Make a flap wheel hone and polish the bore.
3.) BE SURE the key slides freely in the slot of the coupler 
4.)Clean thoroughly and lightly lubricate with a lube that wont freeze or bake 
5.) Install the adapter plates.
6.) Support the other end of the motor shaft so you arn't putting any force or shock loads on the bearings.
7.) Thourghly brace the motor so it wont move during the process.
8.) I would grind/file a slight starting taper in the key and install the key to the shaft , best if the key is tight in the slot. The starting taper will help to position and align the adapter to the shaft before heat is transfered to the shaft and temperature equalization starts. (you can use a sharp pin punch to dimple the key in the area wher it fits into the shaft keyway. YOU DON"T WANT THAT KEY TO MOVE.
9.) Think ahead, practice the moves you will need to make for intallation and be sure you have the right gloves and any handleing tools for the HOT coupler, plus any other gear you might think you need. A good dead blow hammer and if the shaft might protrude through the coupler before it is fully seated to the shaft, a suitable driver tube. 
10.) Having a helper on hand is a Good Idea.
11.) Cool the shaft (dry Ice is best, if not an Ice Bag will do)
12.) Heat the coupler to your freinds recommended temperature for that metal.
13.) Lucky thirteen, try to do the installation in one smooth move, have the helper ready with the dead blow if neaded, smooth and fast, thats why practice is important.

If you get the coupler almost all of the way on, you have two options:
1.) Consider finding a shop with a press that can swing the motor, Again be sure the oppisite end of the shaft is supported.
2.) If you apply more heat to a partially installed coupler remember heat transfers, don't exceed the safe limits for your motor's insulation.

Lastly if you have to pull it off again and start over be sure you have a quality puller availabe with a shaft end protector.

Man I just can't wait to see this thing come to a suceessful end. You really deserve a superior conversion after all your work fixing the FUBARS and previous problems made by the conversion company.


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## Harold in CR (Sep 8, 2008)

Jim, you got it. My adjustable reamers are all slightly angled, so they won't hang on a key slot.


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## Jimdear2 (Oct 12, 2008)

Harold in CR said:


> Jim, you got it. My adjustable reamers are all slightly angled, so they won't hang on a key slot.


Good for you, Mine are all straight. I bought cheap stuff


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## blackpanther-st (Apr 4, 2009)

Mike this looks great exept for that diference in the housings and it sounds like that will be worked out. 

I think that Jims recomendations on the tight shaft adapter are dead on. one thing I woild add though is that making a temporary shim to stop the adaptor at percicly the right depth may be a huge help when driving it on, I would make this out of hard wood or simmeler dencity material, ( not soft pine ) and have it held in place between the adaptor and the DE plate. This will allow you to drive it on faster before it cools with out over shooting. as soon as you hear the wood get hit it should be nearly perfect. also don't forget about end play, but if the back end of the shaft is supported that should not be a problem.


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## fritzgutten (Jul 4, 2009)

if he made it as previously designed, theres a lip in the hub to contact the end of the shaft to set his depth.


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## blackpanther-st (Apr 4, 2009)

fritzgutten said:


> if he made it as previously designed, theres a lip in the hub to contact the end of the shaft to set his depth.


Oh yes that is right! I forgot about that; that should make this really easy then, so long as the temperature differential is high enough when he slides it on.


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## m38mike (Dec 27, 2008)

Jim, thanks for that list of prep steps. You gave me a couple that I had not thought of. One of the design features that intentionally did with the adapter plates is that they will be mounted after the hub is in place. That means that I have full and uncluttered access to the shaft and the hub while I'm putting it on. And with the step on the inside of the hub to catch the end of the shaft, I don't have to worry about driving it on too far. I did polish the shaft to make it clean and smooth. I wasn't going to lubricate it because lube takes space, and I'd rather have as much space for air as I can get. Also, once the hub is in place, it doesn't need lube to allow it to move. It's supposed to stay put, so dry is OK there. 

The hole in the center of the adapter plates is 1/4 inch larger than the hub, so I'll have 1/8 inch clearance all the way around. The sequence for installation will be:
1. hub onto shaft
2. circular adapter onto motor
3. bell housing adapter onto circular adapter
4. flywheel onto hub
5. clutch and pressure plate onto flywheel
6. slip clutch onto tranny input shaft
7. bolt bell housing adapter to bell housing
8. done!!

Well, not quite. I still need to design and build a bridge to support the front end of the motor. I can't do that completely until I see where the motor will end up. And that's got to be built before I can add the front battery rack and the power cables. 

Details! Details! I just want to get it all back together and start driving it!


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## Jimdear2 (Oct 12, 2008)

m38mike said:


> Details! Details! I just want to get it all back together and start driving it!


I know how details and FUBARS can wear on you.

For myself, I finally got the reduction built for the rear motor puller. I went through a series of FUBARS and mis-starts until a simple 2 to 1 chain reduction unit took weeks and weeks to build. 

Took it out yesterday for the first tryafter regearing . . . . YEE HA. 

Look at the tractor in the signature below. I took the defunct 80 HP 750cc V4 ICE out of it and put a 72 volt 9 continious HP electric in it. It wouldn't work direct drive so I had to redo it.

Now it drives like it used to. BIGGRIN

Now I finally have both electric conversions working and a nice county fair to pull them in this weekend. OH Happy Days. Considering I bought all the parts and started this project last fall, Its About Time.

Sorry to Hijack your thread but I just had to crow a bit.


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## m38mike (Dec 27, 2008)

*SUCCESS!!
* The hub is on! 








I mounted the hub in my vise and heated it with a blowtorch. I used my Cen-Tech remote temperature sensor to see how hot it was getting. When it finally got to 220 degrees F I was bored from watching it heat and decided to give it a try. I used a pair of vise-grips to grab the flange and hustled it over to the motor. I already had the key in place in the shaft. I lined the hub up correctly after getting excited and tried to put it on backwards. With half a dozen taps from a wood mallet the hub was all the way on and fitted tightly, with the shoulder pressed tight against the end of the shaft. Then I slowly poured water over the hub to cool it down so it wouldn't heat the shaft and possibly melt the seal. The hub got darker as it cooled, but it still looks good. I spun the shaft and it spins freely. I checked the gap between the hub and the motor face and it's tight, but no rubbing. As you can see, the motor adapter fit nicely over the hub and back onto the motor face. Now I need the bell housing adapter and I'm ready to bolt the flywheel and clutch on. 

Hey Jim! CONGRATULATIONS ON GETTING YOURS RUNNING!!!
Go kick some ICE butt this weekend!!


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

That's looking really good there. Much better then the original.

How many grubs screws do you have holding that drive flange on?


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## Jimdear2 (Oct 12, 2008)

m38mike said:


> *SUCCESS!!*
> I'm ready to bolt the flywheel and clutch on.


Mike,

Being my usual negitive self, Don't forget the Locktite on those adapter plate screws. Or If you are using mechanical lock, be sure that there are flat washers between the lock washer and the aluminium. Otherwise WOW looking good





m38mike said:


> Hey Jim! CONGRATULATIONS ON GETTING YOURS RUNNING!!!





m38mike said:


> Go kick some ICE butt this weekend!!


 
Mike,

Back when . . . I started researching putting in an electric motor into the pullers when I found: 
1.) I couldn't afford a turbine
2.) "THEY" said electric wouldn't work 

Since then I have finished up converting the International Cub Cadet model 100 and have pulled it a few times. 

It is making a believer out of me and a lot of other people. This thing is starting to upset the ICE crowd. I have a 6 or so HP converted Hi Lo motor at 48 volts in it and it will pull with (outpull?) 20 HP garden tractors. Now that I have the 1300 pound modified working WATCH OUT. . . . you bet your bippy I'm going to kick butt.

and best of all . . . silently with no smoke or odor.

I'm beginning to understand what an EV grin is and your wanting to get your Jeep moving. Showing it is almost as much fun as building it.

Our club is going to have a show at a local collage in a few weeks and I am trying to get a 4 wheel farm wagon or a parade float. I want to see how many people we can load onto the wagon before I can't pull it any more. The sled I pull weighs around 9000 pounds so I think I'll supprise some people.

Going to be fun. 

I still expect a video of you when you roll the Jeep out. Hope you get your adapter plate back soon. I bet we are talking days not weeks to EV Grin time once that gets back to you.

Here I am Hi Jacking your thread again Sorry.


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## m38mike (Dec 27, 2008)

Woodsmith,
"grub screws"? Do you mean set screws? I've got 4 in the hub and the hub has a squeezem-tight fit on the shaft. The hub itself is made out of one piece of steel, turned and tapped in the final shape. 

Jim,
If you're pulling all of that with a 6 hp motor on 48 volts, I'm gonna scare myself with what I can pull with an 80 hp motor on 144 volts!  

And all the bolts get a coat of loc-tite when they go in for the last time.


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## Jimdear2 (Oct 12, 2008)

m38mike said:


> Jim,
> If you're pulling all of that with a 6 hp motor on 48 volts, I'm gonna scare myself with what I can pull with an 80 hp motor on 144 volts!
> 
> And all the bolts get a coat of loc-tite when they go in for the last time.


 
Mike,

The tractors total gear reduction of 96 to 1,  really big soft tires and about a 1000 pounds on the rear helps, just a bit, to move that weight. And yes . . . if you haven't driven electric before the low end torque will really supprise you just as it did me. 

An example 
My tractor, in high gear with oversize tires, just stepping on the throttle pot will cause the front to jump off the ground. That is comething that a stock 20 horse tractor can barely do in low gear.

I dont know how much battery you will have in your Jeep but if you have the transfer case and low range, with enough weight you wouldn't need to wory about being in a parade, you could PULL the whole parade.

Sorry if I'm a bit redundant with my suggestions, but that's me, belts and suspenders. I learned a long time ago the the little thing slip by and ruin you in the end.

Have a great one 

Hurry up will you  I can't wait


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## m38mike (Dec 27, 2008)

_More Success!!
_ I bolted all the parts onto the motor this evening. then I hooked up a 12v charger to the motor and turned it on. It Worked!! And everything spun nice and smooth. Here's a photo of what it all looked like.









And just to top this off, I made a 20 second movie of the flywheel spinning. I posted it to you-tube. It's called Electro-Willys motor test. I know - real original name, but hey, I'm a movie camera operator, not a script writer! I only show the flywheel spinning for a few seconds in the video, but I did the test many times before coming in to post this development. 

Now I'll take it all apart and put it all back together with loc-tite on the threads of each bolt. Only this time I've got to remember to turn the bell housing adapter around so it is bolted on the correct side. In my excitement I bolted it on backwards.
















I'm very happy with how it looks when it's spinning. GOOD STUFF!!


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

Great progress there, well done.

Can you post a link to your video? I can't find it.
Cheers.


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## m38mike (Dec 27, 2008)

The youtube video is here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oKK4AnkBUjI

From looking at it, I can see I need to work on my camera skills, especially lighting.  For some reason the video is much darker on youtube than it was on my PC when I downloaded it. It ain't much, but it's progress.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

m38mike said:


> The youtube video is here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oKK4AnkBUjI
> 
> From looking at it, I can see I need to work on my camera skills, especially lighting.  For some reason the video is much darker on youtube than it was on my PC when I downloaded it. It ain't much, but it's progress.


It may not be much video time but you have something that is working. That alone is worthy of recognition. Good stuff.

Anyway it beats me as I only have a pile of papers with lots of scribbles on.


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## m38mike (Dec 27, 2008)

After a busy weekend entertaining friends, I spent some time this afternoon taking the adapter plates and flywheel off the motor. I got the motor and other parts all put back together with some loc-tite in a few places. I also did another test with the motor, with it connected to the battery in another vehicle. This time I really got it spinning. And I took another movie, only this time I made sure I had good lighting. 

It's here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H1kDaB6pAYU

Then I made a video tour of the jeep as it sits today. 
It's here:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M8E5IiiVlhY

I still have a lot to learn about making a good video. I need to get a camera that will do sound. Once my son gets home from his visiting trip, then we'll slide the motor into place and bolt it in.


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## Amberwolf (May 29, 2009)

What camera are you using now? The last two digicams I've had (still image types) both recorded sound when recording videos onto their memory cards. The current one is a Sony DSC-W50, and although I suck at making vids with it, it does a decent job. 
From a treadmill motor test
________
Light Bulb Vaporizer How To


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## m38mike (Dec 27, 2008)

It's in!!
After some difficulties with the preparation to mount the motor, all our work paid off. It took only moments to line up the motor, slip the clutch plate onto the tranny shaft, and line up the adapter plate with the bell housing bolts. 









The tough work for the evening was turning in all the bolts. Some of them don't allow a lot of room to work a ratchet. That's my son under the transmission trying to get a good angle on the bottom bolts. Now I've got to design and build the front brace to hold up the near end of the motor. But one of the things we'll do this evening is to put the rear end up on jack stands, put the transmission in gear, and hook up the motor to a battery, just to watch the rear wheels spin. MOVIE TIME!! 

hey! Why isn't that ring terminal screwed down somewhere??? I gotta check that out!

amberwolf, I've got an Olympus 210 digital camera. It doesn't have any audio input. If I keep doing movies, I'm either going to have to get a camera that does sound, or add some tin-panny piano sound track to the show!


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

Great photo there and good work getting the motor in at last. you must be grinning already, I know I am.

Here's a tip for those awkward bolts.
Use a U joint just behind the socket and then add half a dozen extension bars and tighten them up from somewhere around the outside of the back wheel. Much easier that way. I have lots of 300mm and 150mm extensions and a handful of U joints for my 1/2" drive socket sets. I have even tightened engine bolts from behind the vehicle that way.


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## Amberwolf (May 29, 2009)

One option for recording the audio is to use the memo function on your celphone, if you have one. Just start recording the audio the same time as the video, and tap a hammer on the concrete or two wood blocks together, on camera. 

Then either send that to yourself as an email file (if you have the service for that) or download it to your computer via card or cable (if the phone uses a media card or can access those files via USB).

If you don't have either way to get it into the computer, you could play it back thru a mic into the computer, recording with Audacity or similar software. 

Failing all the above, you could setup the computer in the shop area with a webcam or mic and use that to record the sound. 

Once all that's done and it's in the computer, just drag-n-drop the audio track into the video editor and line it up by matching that sharp sound at the beginning with the action that made it. Relatively simple and generally effective. 
________
Babes live


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## m38mike (Dec 27, 2008)

I tried doing a video with my cell phone. It ran too long. But it does sound! Working through the downloading problems.

I found the balance point for the motor and transmission when bolted together, so they should work well together. And I cut the pieces of the front brace for the motor. I haven't welded them together yet. I did take another video and posted it to youtube. In this one I show the dash at startup, my warning decal, then the motor with jumper cables and the parts for the front brace. Then I follow the jumper cables to the next jeep, and show me hooking up the positive connection. Then the video ends with the rear wheel spinning, showing that from the motor to the tire, the system is working.

Look here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E30Q4bvZcm8

ENJOY!!


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## blackpanther-st (Apr 4, 2009)

Looken good! 
You must be getting anxious to take it for as spin on the road.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

That is good to see. At least you know that it will run. Quiet too!

What's the other vehicle with the donor battery?


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## m38mike (Dec 27, 2008)

Woodsmith,
The other vehicle with the battery is also a 1952 Willys M38 military jeep that's been "civilized". One of our other jeeps.

OK! Lots of pix today!

Today was a good day for progress. We remounted the accelerator on top of the motor. We forgot that earlier







. We got all the high voltage cables routed, ziptied, and connected. And we got the front battery rack put back in place. Here is the motor all cabled up, before we figured out that we forgot the accelerator.









Here's a photo of me rearranging the headlight wiring, after we discovered that the battery rack was a little too close to the fender to leave the headlight relays where they were.









That rack pretty well fills up the front end. This next photo shows the jeep with the front end bolted back on and the extension cord plugged into the recharging socket to bring the pack batteries back up to full voltage. 










I had turned on the 12v systems to check some readings and make sure my lights worked. My fender mounted black-out drive light is working very well in this shot. I tested my pack voltage after having it sit for about 3 months without a charge. It was reading only 116 volts! Way too low! It should be up around 162 volts when the pack is fully charged. That on-board charger will be working hard tonight! 
Tomorrow I'll start the static tests, with the rear wheels up on jackstands, to make sure my cut-off circuit will work. But first I've got to get my tachometer working. I don't have the pickup sensor in position yet. 

I'll never make it as a big car company. I take too long just building one car!


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

That is a great space you have there. I could do so much with that space!

It is looking really good so far. It looks like those batteries were designed to fit across that space there.

What is that plate for at the front of the motor hanging down at an angle? Looks a little vulnerable from this angle. Taco mounting?

I wouldn't worry about being too slow to make it as a big car company, most of your time was taken in putting right someone elses mistakes.


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## m38mike (Dec 27, 2008)

Woodsmith,
The trouble with having lots of good space, is that I keep filling it up with stuff! 

That angled bracket on the bottom of the motor brace is there to hold the rock and water/snow deflector that I have yet to make. The motor is so low and just behind the front wheels, that any rocks or water/snow that splash up from the front tires will head straight for the air intake screen. So I'm going to build a sheet steel deflector to keep the screen clean. It'll bolt onto that brace on the bottom side and onto the horizontal angle iron on the top. 

Yeah the batteries just barely fit into the spaces, both front and back. The problem I have with this arrangement is that I have no room for insulation, or to create an enclosed battery box. So I've been giving some thought to rearranging the batteries again. I have room in back to make 3 rows of 4 instead of 2 rows of 5. That allows me to take 2 from the front and make more room there. Then I can insulate all around both packs, and the heater cables I bought will be more effective at keeping the batteries warm. It gets below zero here in the winter, and I've got to keep the batteries warm somehow.


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## fritzgutten (Jul 4, 2009)

LOOKING GOOD MIKE!!!
you gotta figure out the whole movie making thing, I cant wait to see that old willy moving by electric power!


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## m38mike (Dec 27, 2008)

Monday evening was trouble shooting and design time. First I read the voltage on the battery pack with the multimeter, and was pleased to see 175 volts at a full charge. That is much better than the 115 volts I had yesterday. Then I looked to see why the voltage gauge on the dash is not giving me a reading. The wires are connected like the instructions say, but it's not showing a voltage. I'm afraid I may have a break in one of the wires. They're only 22 gauge wire, and somewhat fragile. I'll have to check each wire to see what's up.

Then I spent time designing the next three constructive add-ons to the E-W. First is a holder to carry the 12 volt on-board charger that keeps my 12 volt battery fully charged. Right now it's just sitting on a fender. Not a good place to leave it when I'm moving. I'll weld up some angle steel and make a pocket for it to sit in, and I'll use some plumbers strap to hold it down. This is temporary until I can install a DC-DC charger that will run off the main battery pack. 

The next project is to design two wooden boxes to put the batteries in. The idea is to protect and insulate the batteries inside a container so they will stay warm even in winter. I want the boxes to look like packing crates, like a GI might have in his jeep. I'll have solid insulation inside each box surrounding the batteries. I'm designing one box for the front rack under the hood, and one for the back rack inside the jeep. Inside each box, under all the batteries, I'll have a warming cable to keep the battery's temperature in the 70's. I don't think I'll get to making the boxes any time soon, but I wanted to start thinking about them so I can work out the little details, and start looking for hardware to hold the lids on. 

This morning I read my voltage again, after having the batteries unplugged overnight. I got a reading of 195 volts!! That's almost 11 volts per battery, and they are only 8 volt batteries. I think that's too much. Can anyone tell me what's going on here?????


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## Jimdear2 (Oct 12, 2008)

Mike,

Look around for wood ammo boxes, Something like 105 mm howitzers, then join them together and cut out the insides to fit your batteries. 



m38mike said:


> The next project is to design two wooden boxes to put the batteries in. The idea is to protect and insulate the batteries inside a container so they will stay warm even in winter. I want the boxes to look like packing crates, like a GI might have in his jeep. I'll have solid insulation inside each box surrounding the batteries. I'm designing one box for the front rack under the hood, and one for the back rack inside the jeep. Inside each box, under all the batteries, I'll have a warming cable to keep the battery's temperature in the 70's. I don't think I'll get to making the boxes any time soon, but I wanted to start thinking about them so I can work out the little details, and start looking for hardware to hold the lids on.
> 
> This morning I read my voltage again, after having the batteries unplugged overnight. I got a reading of 195 volts!! That's almost 11 volts per battery, and they are only 8 volt batteries. I think that's too much. Can anyone tell me what's going on here?????


Did you pull off the surface charge before you measured the voltage? 

Just put the thing in neutral and run the motor for a while then let it sit for a bit and re-measure.

I think you'll be happier with the measurement after the surface charge is off.


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## m38mike (Dec 27, 2008)

Jim,
No I didn't pull off the surface charge. I simply unplugged the charger and let the pack sit for 12 hours. I'm trying to diagnose the problems with my gauges before I run the system. that way I've got some kind of yardstick to measure the changes that might be occuring. Once the gauges are all working correctly, then I'll work the motor with the pack.

Because of the tight fit for all the batteries, I have to custom build the "ammo crates" that they will fit into. I've looked at different styles of ammo crates to see what will work for me. I'm looking for the right style of hinges and hasps to help with the realistic look. I'm also trying to figure out what might have been shipped in a crate that size, so I can stencil the crate with some realistic jargon. I may just use military jargon to describe what's really in the crates.


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## blackpanther-st (Apr 4, 2009)

m38mike said:


> This morning I read my voltage again, after having the batteries unplugged overnight. I got a reading of 195 volts!! That's almost 11 volts per battery, and they are only 8 volt batteries. I think that's too much. Can anyone tell me what's going on here?????


That seems insainly high, even for surface charge. I know with the AGMs I am using, that would void their warranty and would likely kill them. are you sure that your multimeter is working correctly?


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## Jimdear2 (Oct 12, 2008)

m38mike said:


> Jim,
> No I didn't pull off the surface charge. I simply unplugged the charger and let the pack sit for 12 hours. I'm trying to diagnose the problems with my gauges before I run the system. that way I've got some kind of yardstick to measure the changes that might be occuring. Once the gauges are all working correctly, then I'll work the motor with the pack.


I think you should pull off the surface charge before you worry. A fully charged cell on a warm day might show as much as 2.5+ volts before the surface charge comes off. I beleive you have 18 batteries thats 72 cells or 180 volts. Take a hydrometer reading. Or even pull one batt and load it with something, measure voltage before and after, then average that to your 18 batteries.



m38mike said:


> Because of the tight fit for all the batteries, I have to custom build the "ammo crates" that they will fit into. I've looked at different styles of ammo crates to see what will work for me. I'm looking for the right style of hinges and hasps to help with the realistic look. I'm also trying to figure out what might have been shipped in a crate that size, so I can stencil the crate with some realistic jargon. I may just use military jargon to describe what's really in the crates.


Just for fun I looked around for 105mm howitzer or 81 mm morter wooden boxes. They are of course both period specific to your jeep. Both might fit your bill for size. The only place I found them in any quantity was Austraila. Maybe you could get dimensions and box markings and hardware shipped up. The few on eBay looked pretty rough. 

Jim


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## m38mike (Dec 27, 2008)

I checked the voltage again this evening and it was down to 181 volts. So it appears that the pack is settling down, but that's still 10 volts per batt on an 8v batt. 

I spent the rest of the evening trying to figure out why my volt gauge isn't working. I got no where. Next step is to contact the gauge company. Also my analyst circuit board is not working. I've got the green screen of death - no text at all. Already fired off an email to those good folks in Canada who built it to see what they recommend.

Jim, thanks for checking out the boxes. I too found some very rough ones that don't help me much with markings. I already have figured out that I need to custom build the boxes in order to fit in the space I have to work with. But if I can find some good hardware, and good examples of markings, then I'm covered for what I need. 

blackpanther, Yup, I checked both of my multimeters against each other on other batteries and they both matched. And they both got the same high readings for my pack voltage. I guess that if you can go faster with more voltage in an EV, then this jeep ought to fly!!!


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## Amberwolf (May 29, 2009)

If you directly wire a power source that is within the limits of the voltmeter's input range to the voltmeter, what happens?

EDIT: Do these help?

http://www.usarmymodels.com/ARTICLES/105mm Ordnance/5 105mmBoxesandMarkings.html
http://www.usarmymodels.com/ARTICLES/105mm Ordnance/Ammo/105mm boxes and metal container.jpg
http://www.usarmymodels.com/ARTICLES/Building 155mm Gun/Ammo/fuzecrate.jpg
http://www.usarmymodels.com/WEAPONS/Infantry Weap Snelling 5.19.07/IMG_0955.jpg

http://www.militaryandcamping.com.au/images/ab20.gif
http://www.hayesotoupalik.com/images/DSCF1972.jpg
http://media.photobucket.com/image/wooden ammo crate/stanboone/Guns/012.jpg
http://www.prices4antiques.com/item_images/medium/33/93/07-04.jpg

http://www.archertransfers.com/AR35307.html
http://www.archertransfers.com/AR35290.html
http://www.archertransfers.com/AR35288.html
________
18SexyHot4U


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## m38mike (Dec 27, 2008)

Amberwolf, thanks for all the links! WOW! That's great!

On your question, I've got the gauge hooked up to the pack for + and to the frame for -. That's how it was hooked up before and it worked. My next step is to tie the - to the pack - to see what happens then.


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## Bottomfeeder (Jun 13, 2008)

Are you grounding your battery pack to your chassis? That's not a good idea, if you can avoid it, for safety reasons. The voltage gauge should be measuring the + of the pack to the - of the pack. The only way it would've worked before is if there was a connection between your chassis and the negative terminal of your battery pack.

Have you measured each battery to see what the voltages are? I'm very surprised that the high voltage remains after sitting for a day or so. Usually the internal resistance of the battery will bring that down.

Keep up the great work, by the way.


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## m38mike (Dec 27, 2008)

Bottomfeeder,
Thanks for the quick advice. No the pack is not grounded to the chassis, and that's why I wondered about the gauge going to chassis ground. My pack is completely isolated from the vehicle. Your advice exactly matches what the guage company told me - ground the gauge to the pack negative and it should work. This is just another case of trying to fix the problems created by "tweedleDUMB and company". 

I've done random checks of individual batteries and they've all settled down to the same voltage +- 0.1 volts. I guess that after 3 months of no activity they were all hungry for a charge and took more than they needed. As I begin to work the pack, I will keep a log on my test results for pack voltage to see if it continues to spike up into the 190's. 

I got an email back from the Canadian company who made my analyzer. They said that the company who made the LCD screen for them used some defective resistors and that they were replacing the defective ones with new ones. They offered to send me the new ones with instructions on replacing them, or I could send it back to them and they would do the fix. I told them that if their instructions are good, and included pictures, I'd give it a try. I've never built any part of a circuit board before so this should be interesting. 

I also talked with Jim at Logisystems today about a question I had on the controller installation instructions. During the course of the conversation I explained to him what components I had. When he learned that I have a Curtis pot box he offered to send me one of his new pot boxes. Apparently his is making a logarithmic pot box that eliminates the potential for the jerky starts that have occured when a Logisystem controller is matched to a Curtis pot box. I'm anxious to give it a try. 

But in the mean time I plan to test the system tonight and get a start on adjusting the controller to my driving style and vehicle. I'll be spinning tires for sure, and if all goes well, tonight will be my first test drive since the rebuild. Movie time for sure!


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## Jimdear2 (Oct 12, 2008)

m38mike said:


> But in the mean time I plan to test the system tonight and get a start on adjusting the controller to my driving style and vehicle. I'll be spinning tires for sure, and if all goes well, tonight will be my first test drive since the rebuild. Movie time for sure!


Mike

YEEEEEEEE HA!!

Call in the Vets, Flags Flying, 21 Gun Salute. 

Can't wait to see the pictures of the roll out.

You probably going to need a glare filter on your camera because of the light reflecting from your EV grin. 

Throw a little gravel for me. (watch out for windows if you do) Have fun.

Jim

PS
Bet you won't beleive the difference in action and performance now that a real "Proffesional" has worked on it. Congratulations Professional M38 Mike.


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## blackpanther-st (Apr 4, 2009)

m38mike said:


> I also talked with Jim at Logisystems today about a question I had on the controller installation instructions. During the course of the conversation I explained to him what components I had. When he learned that I have a Curtis pot box he offered to send me one of his new pot boxes. Apparently his is making a logarithmic pot box that eliminates the potential for the jerky starts that have occured when a Logisystem controller is matched to a Curtis pot box. I'm anxious to give it a try.
> 
> But in the mean time I plan to test the system tonight and get a start on adjusting the controller to my driving style and vehicle. I'll be spinning tires for sure, and if all goes well, tonight will be my first test drive since the rebuild. Movie time for sure!


Interesting to see Logisystems go to a logarithmic pot box; I had recommended the use of a logarithmic pot to solve the issue of Logisystems jerky starts in of the forums here quite some time ago. 

Glad to see this coming together for you, and looking forward to that video. 

This was my daughter and I testing the Fiero Electro about a month ago.


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## m38mike (Dec 27, 2008)

Thanks Jim!

Blackpanther, nice video, but what's the sparking going on in your dash???

Well I got the tires spinning last night so I know the system works! BUT! But I didn't have a screw driver small enough to make the adjustments to the controller, so I left the jeep on the jackstands until I can bring my computer tools home. Then I'll have some very fine screwdrivers that should work. The controller is set way too low, like on the lawn tractor setting. That wouldn't make for a very good movie. I'll get her cranked up today. 

So this afternoon I expect to take it for my test drive! YaHOOOO!!


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## blackpanther-st (Apr 4, 2009)

Mike those Little hangups can be so frustrating when you are so close. 

The sparks were my daughter connecting the jumpers together to complete the circuit. The batteries were in the back for safety. you can see the cables running out from the trunk and in through the sun roof in the video.


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## m38mike (Dec 27, 2008)

You better go rent a copy of Rat Patrol. We tried 3 times to make the movie of Electro-Willys coming out for the test drive, and we were snafu all 3 times. Buy the time we got plan B in place the sun had set and it was too dark to get a good video. So we'll do it tomorrow afternoon. Only this time we'll do two options at once, and we'll do it twice in a row, and we'll succeed where today we failed. 

But on the bright side I did drive around the house twice. I'm having problems with the controller adjustment screws. Two of them will not adjust. I may have to send the controller back to have that repaired. Currently I'm stuck somewhere between powered wheel barrow and lawn tractor for speed.







But I'm moving. That's a good thing.


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## m38mike (Dec 27, 2008)

Here it is! The test drive movie!!
 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jnjJdnmyPs0

Be sure your sound is on and turned up. The video image is pretty poor because we used my cell phone to take this since the cell phone also does sound. It truly is just as quiet as you will hear in the movie.

Unfortunately I discovered that one of my adjustment screws inside the controller is broken. So I'll take the controller out this weekend and ship it off next week. Just another rock in the road to success. It really has been a jeep road so far.


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## esoneson (Sep 1, 2008)

Congratulations Mike!!!

I have been following your woes and fixes and admire your patience. Hopefully my conversion will turn out half as good as yours. Great job.
That grin was hard to see in the video but I know it was there.

Eric


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## blackpanther-st (Apr 4, 2009)

So how does it feel?


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

Fantastic!

I am so pleased for you that it is up an running. That is the sort of thing that spurs the rest of us on with our own projects.

Just a thought though, if you got some smoother tyres and ran on asphalt you might just get it fully into stealth mode!


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## m38mike (Dec 27, 2008)

*Thanks Everyone!!**







*


*I appreciate all the support and encouragement I've been getting while I've tried to get this jeep converted. *
It really has been a rough road, but I can see the smooth part coming up. And every little or big problem that I overcome teaches me a little bit more about this vehicle, and what I would do differently if I did it all again. I pulled the controller out yesterday while my neighbor and his son were repainting his son's car in the paint booth. I'll send it off today, and hope that I can get it back by the weekend. I've got some more work to do on the hardtop to get it ready for winter, so maybe instead of driving E-W around, I'll spend some time getting the top finished. 

*But it sure felt good to drive it around after all those months of work!














*


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Congrats Mike! It's definitely inspirational to see someone work through their issues and share the experience and joy of a running EV!


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## m38mike (Dec 27, 2008)

Just to bring folks up to date - I sent my controller back to Logisystems about a week ago. I just called and they've already repaired it and sent it back to me.  Based on the tracking log, it should arrive early next week. I've been doing a few other things with E-W in the mean time, like working with the step-start device to get it to make my alert lights work correctly. I'm hopeful that I'll be zipping around with it by this time next week.


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## m38mike (Dec 27, 2008)

I got the controller back from Logisystems today, and installed it this evening. After making a few adjustments I took it for a drive around the neighborhood. Boy did that feel good! 

Only problem is I didn't get the performance I thought it should have. I know the controller is good, tested at the factory. So my next step is to test EVERY battery in the pack to see if one of them died. I could not get it to use more than 100 amps. The other thing I'm going to do is trade out the Curtis pot box for a Logisystem pot box to see if that makes a difference. One of these days I'll get the right combination of everything to really make this jeep dance!!


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## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

did you crank up all three adjustments on the controller? ( it may only have 2 active ones)They set them pretty low. I have all mine maxxed out.

Brian


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## m38mike (Dec 27, 2008)

rctous, Yes as I was driving around this evening I cranked all 3 adjustment screws to the max setting for each one. Not much difference. That's what make me think that my choke point is somewhere else in the system. I'm just not sure where yet.


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

m38mike said:


> That's what make me think that my choke point is somewhere else in the system. I'm just not sure where yet.


Mike,

You got a voltmeter on the battery pack? If it is a battery problem, it will show up as voltage going thru the floor as you try to draw current.

major


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## blackpanther-st (Apr 4, 2009)

A few other things to check with a volt meter would be across any possible restrictions other than a dead battery, they would show up as a significant voltage under load when you would normally expect a few millivolts to a few volts at the most. That circuit breaker would probably be the first place I would start, but it could be anything; hopefully just a terminal that just needs a little more torque.


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## m38mike (Dec 27, 2008)

Major, based on what you're saying, I may not have a battery problem. I've got a dash-mounted volt meter and it stayed steady while I was driving yesterday. No big fluctuations even going up and down hills. The ammeter never went over 100 amps, even when I tried to "floor it" up the hills. 

I plan to replace the Curtis pot box with the Logisystem pot box to see what that does for me. 

blackpanther, yup I was thinking about just what you suggested. I know that a loose connection can really kill the power going thru it. I've tried to make sure that every connection is tight and solid. I hope that all the components are good for this voltage and load. I'll soon find out.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

You can also give it a run and then look for hot spots in the wiring and connections. If you have a remote thermometer or infrared camera you may be able to spot where the bottle neck is as it will be significantly warmer/hotter.

You can just use your hand but without touching.

I often check my wheel hubs by hand after a long drive to see that they are all cool at the same temp. A hot one means bearings are failing. I learnt the importance of doing that during my Land Rover off road days after I lost a wheel.


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## blackpanther-st (Apr 4, 2009)

Mike you could well be right about the potbox as well.

I have read that many of these do not cover their full range; most likely because they are using pot with about 280 degree turn but the linkage only goes about 90 degrees. I know that Logisystems has made a big deal about only using thier own pot box since the last revision of there controller line up; that could just be marketing, or there could be a real reason for it. 

I do remember reading that they went to a logarithmic pot to help with the jerky starts they had with the older lineup; actualy somthing I had recomended a while back in one of my posts on this site.


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## m38mike (Dec 27, 2008)

Last night I changed the Curtis pot box for the Logisystem pot box by swapping the connections on the controller. WOW!!  What a difference!! I had the rear axle up on jack stands and I thought the rear wheels were going to spin clean off the axles! The Curtis pot box was a piece of junk. But with the new Logisystem box, the wheels started smooth and accellerated well up to what ever speed I wanted. I worked the box while I was holding it in my hand. Now I've got to take the front battery rack out so I can get to the old pot box and replace it with the new one. That is this weekend's project. 

I also checked each battery and terminal to make sure they were all tight. Everything checked out fine. So it looks like my pot box was the weak link in my system. 

*Thank goodness for easy fixes!! *


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

That is good news, a simple fix. Can't wait until the next video now.


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## m38mike (Dec 27, 2008)

_*Here it is, test drive #2!!








*_*http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W3wzWBy6uDY*
*
*I built a new mount for the new pot box and got it installed this afternoon. We got the battery rack put back in late this afternoon and got the grill and lights operating just as the sun was setting. And WOW!! Does it have power and speed!! Much better than before! Pretty soon I'll be driving it to town and back. To bad I have to work tomorrow. It'd be fun to stay home and play with this jeep!


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## tj4fa (May 25, 2008)

*Cool!!*


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## Amberwolf (May 29, 2009)

KEWL! 

Just in time for Breakaway Day's 10th anniversary, too. (not that they used jeeps on the moon, but still). 

I tell you, that is the *quietest* jeep I have ever not heard. 





yeah, I know, you took the vid with your regular digicam that has no sound!
________
ECIGARETTE FORUM


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

Another great silent movie by m38mike!

That looks like a good turn of speed there, well done. I had to listen again with the volume turned right up to be sure I didn't hear the crunch of gravel and the quiet whine of the motor.


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## blackpanther-st (Apr 4, 2009)

Congratulations!


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## m38mike (Dec 27, 2008)

Thanks Guys! This really has been an adventure just getting to this point. But now the fun begins







because now it's time to take it on the road to test how far I can go, how fast I can go, how steep a hill can I climb, and how long it takes my little 9 inch brakes to stop me once I hit 60 mph!







Speaking of which, I need to adjust my left front brake. I'm pulling noticeably to the right when I do brake. 
One of my projects for this winter is to get the web site updated. And somewhere in all of that I plan to put together my list of parts and EV building advice. I plan to add lots of photos to that. I've only posted about 1/20th of the photos we've taken to record progress, regress, and progress again. 

Now that it's running am I done?? Not yet! I've still got to finish the insulated cab for running it this winter. I've got to put the heating cables under the batteries to keep them warm. I've got to build the wood crates that will insulate/hide the batteries. I still need to buy and install a DC-DC converter to keep my 12 volt battery charged while I'm on the road. I still need to install the cab heater to keep me warm this winter. And I've got to figure out why my tachometer is not working reliably. But that's all fun stuff to do, and when I want a break, I can just jump into the E-W and take a quick drive out into the forest (quietly! shshsh!!). 

Anyone who wants to stop by for a visit, I'll be glad to take you for a ride. H3LL I'll even let you drive it! It's kinda spooky just how quiet it is!


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## dtbaker (Jan 5, 2008)

m38mike said:


> Last night I changed the Curtis pot box for the Logisystem pot box by swapping the connections on the controller. WOW!!  What a difference!!


so I am curious now... did you ever test the curtis PB to see if it was actually putting out the 0-5 ohm resistance it was supposed to, and that matched what your controller was expecting? I am wondering if it was a faulty PB, or mismatched resistance range....


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## m38mike (Dec 27, 2008)

No I never did test the Curtis pot box to see what it was doing. I should do that. I suspect that it was a faulty/abused pot box. I went with the Logisystem pot box since it's set up for exponential resistance instead of linear, and that solves the 'jump-start' problem where the controller jumps when starting from a dead stop. Even when I start in 3rd gear (high gear) it starts smooth now.


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## dtbaker (Jan 5, 2008)

m38mike said:


> No I never did test the Curtis pot box to see what it was doing. I should do that. I suspect that it was a faulty/abused pot box. I went with the Logisystem pot box since it's set up for exponential resistance instead of linear, and that solves the 'jump-start' problem where the controller jumps when starting from a dead stop. Even when I start in 3rd gear (high gear) it starts smooth now.


it would be great if you could post test results of the Curtis... There have been several other posts with less than perfect results from them, and I am just looking to put together a better list of 'suggested' components. What did you end up paying for the Logisystems controller and PB? I am wondering how it compares to the Curtis selections.....


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## m38mike (Dec 27, 2008)

dtbaker, I got the logisystem controller through my previous conversion contractor, so I'm not sure of the cost. The pot box I recieved in exchange for some information that Logisystems needed in dealing with another deadbeat. I beleive that they are selling thier pot box for under $100, but I'm not sure. I will say that it works very well with their controller. I'm finding it very smooth on take-offs and delivers lot of power at the top of the curve.

On another note, since the weather tomorrow is going to be good, and since it's Friday, and since I can't stand to leave Electro-Willys at home any longer,
I've decided to drive it the 20 miles to work tomorrow!! 

I have not tested the total range, or the top speed, and I have not fixed the issue with my tachometer. But I think it's all good enough to get me and my carpool buddy to work tomorrow. I'm bringing an extension cord and I've lined up some electricity to charge me up while I'm at work. We're going to take some video of parts of the ride going in, and some stills in front of our office when we arrive. 

We also have a Plan B, and that involves a pickup truck and a tow bar. We don't anticipate using Plan B! It's the big day!! Out on the road and making it work!


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## blackpanther-st (Apr 4, 2009)

Good luck! and looking forward to the video.

today was a good day for me as well; I tested driving the car with the DIY controller I am building for the first time today and all went well. Only 36 volt and still a lot more work to be done, but the power section performed beautifully at that voltage and the car moved along nicely. 

I took video, but the camera battery quit just as I got to the good stuff. Ill post it in my controller thread; the link is in my signature.


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## m38mike (Dec 27, 2008)

*Hey we made it into work!*







Barely! Frozen! What's the windchill driving 60 mph at 40 degrees F with no top in an open jeep? DANG COLD!! Despite our hypothermia, our concern was more for the batteries. Lead acid batt's loose power when they're cold, and mine were cold today. Coming close to town we were reduce to driving only about 20 mph.







We made it to the edge of town and had to stop to let the batteries recharge themselves.







Then we drove part way through town and had to stop again for 5 minutes.







And we finally got to the office with our plan B truck ready to tow us following close behind. 

What we learned this morning is that in order to make this battery pack work for commuting, I'm going to have to heat them. They were very cold this morning when we took off before sunrise. We also learned that the batteries I have are not going to work for me as well as I had hoped, even for just a one-way run. This afternoon they should be much warmer, and they'll have a full charge, so we'll see how they do going uphill on the way back home. 

But hey! We made our first commute all the way in using electricity!!


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## blackpanther-st (Apr 4, 2009)

Mike, do you know what the amp hour rating is for your batteries?

Also I am sure you already know this, but if you can unlock both your front hubs and the the transfer to the forward shaft as well, you can save a substantial amount of energy that normally gets lost turning the forward shaft and more importantly the forward differential.


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## Crash_AF (Sep 18, 2009)

Hey, that's great news. Congrats on crossing another major milestone in the build. Thanks for giving me the links from the MVCC, lots of interesting information.

Later,
Joe

BTW, your wind chill factor was either 9 or 25 depending on which scale you decide to use.


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## m38mike (Dec 27, 2008)

blackpanther, My batts have a 165 Ah 20 hour rating. They don't have a 1 hour rating, but with Peukert's I expect its about 130. Add the cold to that and they were probably lucky to give me anything over 100 Ah. And yes, the hubs were unlocked and the transfer case was in 2-high. So the front axle was not turning. As I was running at 60 mph I noticed that the ammeter was reading over 200. If I keep my speed down, I'll burn fewer amps. I drove at 60 for about one mile of the 20. Most of the way I was in the 40's. 

Joe, thanks for the windchill. My buddy kept looking for the non-existant heater switch.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

Hey, well done Mike! At least you made it and know what the ability and range is.


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## TheSGC (Nov 15, 2007)

m38mike said:


> blackpanther, My batts have a 165 Ah 20 hour rating. They don't have a 1 hour rating, but with Peukert's I expect its about 130. Add the cold to that and they were probably lucky to give me anything over 100 Ah. And yes, the hubs were unlocked and the transfer case was in 2-high. So the front axle was not turning. As I was running at 60 mph I noticed that the ammeter was reading over 200. If I keep my speed down, I'll burn fewer amps. I drove at 60 for about one mile of the 20. Most of the way I was in the 40's.
> 
> Joe, thanks for the windchill. My buddy kept looking for the non-existant heater switch.


Did you insulate your batteries? My batteries were getting cold (sub 60F, once 48F) and I whipped together a quick insulated box from 1" foam insulation and duck tape and noticed a huge improvement. They never get below 71F so far, and if I leave them on the charger at night, they are 81 F+ in the morning, whle the surrounding trunk is in the 50's F or lower.


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## Crash_AF (Sep 18, 2009)

Ok, I've gotta ask... how was the ride home? Any better with the warmer temps?

Later,
Joe


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## m38mike (Dec 27, 2008)

Woodsmith, yea, the range is just short of the liquor store! 

TheSGC, no they are not insulated yet. I plan to repack them in a wood crate with styrofoam insulation and a heater cable. But if what you say works as well for me, the heater cable will never come on. It has a thermostat in it set for 70 degrees. I might need it on our sub-zero days. But for a day like today, all I need to do is keep the heat in the battery.

Crash, we didn't make it home.  And we didn't even make it to the liqour store so we could celebrate getting that far. We had to go with Plan B, getting towed by the pickup truck. We made it about 15 miles, but at the base of a 2 mile long, 5% grade, we completely ran out of steam. 

I'm hoping that by insulating the batteries, and make several short trips with a full recharge in between, that the batteries will develop a longer life and better discharge capacity. As it stands right now, I cannot get a 20 mile commute out of them. I know I'm asking a lot out of them. A jeep is a tough vehicle to power because it does not have the right characteristics. But at least now I have proof of concept and now I just need to figure out what is the best battery setup for me. 

So she'll get a full recharge tonight, and tomorrow I'll take it out to run short errands, and just for the ride. Maybe I'll go take some neighbors for rides.


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## blackpanther-st (Apr 4, 2009)

Mike you mentioned pulling over 200A at 60 mph, what are you pulling at lower speeds like 30 and 40 mph? I am wandering how much is aerodynamic related and how much is rolling and drive train? 

I have heard that lead acid does have a break in period where they gain usable capacity during the first several charge / discharge cycles.


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## tj4fa (May 25, 2008)

blackpanther-st said:


> I have heard that lead acid does have a break in period where they gain usable capacity during the first several charge / discharge cycles.


From a technical Paper by Electric Vehicles of America


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## m38mike (Dec 27, 2008)

tj4fa, I sure wish you had posted this last week before I got the itch to really stretch my batteries. But I'm glad you at least posted it. This will change what I will do to run up the batteries in their cycles. Good info there. 

Maybe by doing this for many cycles, and putting the batteries inside an insulated box, I can stretch the mileage I got on Friday to something that will actually make it possible for me to really commute in this rig without resorting to a tow to make it home. 

_Thanks again!_


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## blackpanther-st (Apr 4, 2009)

tj4fa

I also want to thank you for posting the break-in information, thats a lot more detail than what I had been aware of, and important information at that.


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## tj4fa (May 25, 2008)

You're welcome guys!  

But the true credit goes to the Electric Vehicles of America people who put it in one of their technical papers.


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## miniUMM (Jun 25, 2009)

so how is this going ?


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## m38mike (Dec 27, 2008)

During our Fall Color Tour, almost everyone was getting a chance to drive E-W and see what it was like to control an all-electric vehicle. And everyone was having a great time with it too. Until the fire!!

On one of our trips around the neighborhood Joe was driving about 30 mph when all of a sudden there were lots of sparks coming from under the seat! And following the sparks came lots of flame! I yelled at him to stop the jeep and jump out. He hung on long enough to get us stopped and set the parking brake so the jeep wouldn't roll back down the hill. After I jumped out I grabbed the fire extinguisher off the front fender, shut down the main power switch, and shot the controller. The fire went out immediately, but not before doing some damage to the charger wires that were next to it. I thought for sure that the bottom of the driver's seat was burned. But after removing it I found it to be fine. Here are some photos of it in place and what the result was. This first one shows the extinguisher powder all over the place.









This one shows where the fire blew out the seal on the back end of the controller, as it burned out the insides. This end is usually sealed up at the factory. 









This should still be under warrantee, so I should not have to pay anything to have it repaired/replaced. It was very unexpected - to say the least! But that also means that the Electro-Willys will be out of commission for quite a while as this gets fixed. One other thing this event has convinced me to do is to move the controller out from under the driver's seat. I thought this location would be good for air circulation. I never dreamed it would be bad for fire distribution!! 

I'm thinking that I'll move the controller to the left rear fender, and make sure that the end is facing away from the driver's seat. 

Neither Joe nor I were hurt in this incident, other than some pride. I feel fortunate about that. Joe was very apologetic, thinking he did something to cause this. He did nothing to cause this failure. He just happend to be the driver at the time. And he kept his head about him as he stopped the vehicle so we could safely exit, while the fire was burning under his seat and magic smoke billowed up around us.


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## blackpanther-st (Apr 4, 2009)

Their had been a lot of talk about the lodgys having a problem with this in the past, but supposedly they had gotten past that stage, then again, maybe they still have some bugs to work out. 

Too bad, you seem to be getting more than your share of mishapes, but at least this one is under warentie.


I had wonered about that location before; Im glad that no one got hurt.


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## Amberwolf (May 29, 2009)

Ouch. I guess that was a little more color than your tour needed.  

What do you think might have caused it? I don't see capacitor shrapnel, so it seems likely it's MOSFET failure (assuming this controller uses MOSFETs rather than IGBTs), but I wonder what the root cause was?
________
HotMandy4u live


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## tj4fa (May 25, 2008)

WOW - Holy Crap!!

Glad no one was hurt and you had a fire extinguisher on board.

No to be critical but...

Is Joe fat?

Could the seat have bowed under the weight and touched something to short the controller out?

Odd that you have the heat sink on the bottom of the controller. Since heat rises, it might be better served on top of the controller and maybe the controller mounted off the chassis by a 1/4" with a hole and fan mounted underneath it.

Also, how is that charger working out for you? I 'm curious how well it works in general even though the product manual for them does not recommend (forbids it actually) mounting them on the side like that.

http://store.kta-ev.com/PFC3000.pdf

PS I think the manual is wrong on the side mounting - I think it would be forbidden to have it upside down and marginal on its side.


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## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

Dude that sucks ,,,, I have been there but call Jim and I am positive he will get you a new controller out to you this coming week,,,, if he does not let me know and I will send you a loaner 750 amp logisystem controller, ( no charge of course).

Brian


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## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

also be sure to let Jim know that you need the dual fan kit for the new controller he sends to you,,,, the low heat sink you have is doing nothing for cooling. All the heat is on the top on a Logi...

Brian


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

Hey Mike, I'm glad that nothing else was damaged, you and Joe included. Must have been scary. As you say, at least Joe managed to park up safely or it could have been worse with a burning runaway.

I hope you get it sorted out and relocated.


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## dtbaker (Jan 5, 2008)

wow, that sure sounds like an EXCITING afternoon! If you end up moving your controller/heatsink, you may want to mount the heatsink on top or vertically for natural convection... unless you can duct some outside air over it. I cut a 'scoop' in my hood, and it seems to hold the temp down very well without any external fan.


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## m38mike (Dec 27, 2008)

I really was disappointed when all that magic smoke came out of the controller. I paid good money to keep that smoke all bottled up, and there it was - boiling out all over the inside of the jeep!







And besides, how was I supposed to be able to sneak around undetected in stealth mode with all that fire and smoke just belching out and toasting the driver?
















I called the company and they said "box it up and send it back. We'll put a rush on your repair/replacement so you can get running again." Sounds good to me. I sent them some photos and info about what was happening when it began to do what the Germans call "Spitzensparken mit hotzenflashenflamin".









On the cooling fins underneath, that was a convenient way to help air circulate under as well as over the controller. I'm giving some consideration to putting the new controller under the floor with a spray/rock guard in front of it. That way it'll get lots of moving fresh air to cool it, and if it should cook off again, then all the hotzenflashenflamin will be outside where it won't damage any other electronics. Since it's in a sealed case, that shouldn't be a problem, but I'll talk it over with Logisystems Jim before I mount it there.


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## Amberwolf (May 29, 2009)

Just as a bit of humor, if you end up having to put a shield on it, you could just paint a little Duck and an ampersand on it. You know, so it's a "Duck &" cover? 

Now for a more helpful part of the post: This might not be applicable to a car, but on my bicycles, both the old DayGlo Avenger and my current Junkyard Wolf (nee CrazyBike2), the controller is mounted so that the heatsink is "fanned" by the air draft created by the spinning rear tire. 

Essentially a "free" air-circulation device--the very very little extra energy it might take out of the whole system by creating a teensy bit extra drag thru the air onto the wheel would be so negligible as to be unmeasurable, I expect, in the face of all other losses. I did not add anything to the tire/wheel whatsoever, just let the normal spokes/tread air disturbance flow waft over the heatsink fins, which are not all that close to the tire--just close enough to make a difference, without risk that the tire could ever come into contact with the unit.

On the DGA it helped a great deal vs having the controller elsewhere where it was not fanned by the tire, perhaps 15-20F difference. On JW/CB2, it doesn't make as much difference, because the controller itself is much better/more efficient, so it barely gets at most 10F above ambient anyway. 

I just had to periodically ensure no mud/etc had built up on the fins--even though they were to the side of the wheel, not in line with it, there was still road dirt/spray on it sometimes.
________
FIND HEADSHOP


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## Qer (May 7, 2008)

Amberwolf said:


> Just as a bit of humor, if you end up having to put a shield on it, you could just paint a little Duck and an ampersand on it. You know, so it's a "Duck &" cover?


Aw, god, I think you just outpunned Pearls before Swine. My head still hurts from hitting the desk. Repeatedly.


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## Amberwolf (May 29, 2009)

Qer said:


> Aw, god, I think you just outpunned Pearls before Swine. My head still hurts from hitting the desk. Repeatedly.


I'm just good like that. 
________
buy a condo in Pattaya


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## Guest (Sep 30, 2009)

Might want to reconsider mounting under the car. Good chance for it it get gunked up as air will swirl around under and behind any front cover protection and when you are out driving on hot roads in the summer you will only be trying to cool with heated air. Mount it in the engine compartment close to the motor and use some good quality cooling fans that will always be on when you are driving. Keeps the gunk off and you can route cooler air over the controller. Keep it cool, keep it clean, and keep it safe. It is a pretty large investment. 

Pete


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## WSJ (Sep 18, 2008)

My 1231C heat sink and fans limits the controller case heat rise to less than 10° C. Both 12 volt fans use less than 3 amps. The heat sink fins are 2.5" deep and are spaced 0.5 inches apart. Semiconductor Mean Time Between Failure (MTBF) is a function of junction temperature and is reduced 50% for every 10° C increase in junction temperature.


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## m38mike (Dec 27, 2008)

Pete, as always, you offer good advice. Under the floor would be convenient for me to do, But possibly not good for the controller. After looking at Wayne's photo for a few minutes, it occured to me that I have an angle brace across the front of the motor, below the front battery rack. It would be easy (ha!) to add two angle steel brackets to mount the controller on to the motor brace. The controller would get the clean air from under the grill, it would be protected from road spray, it would be away from other electronics, I could still put fans on it, and I could still get to it quickly with a fire extinguisher. The down side is I will need to make some more long cables to connect the contactor, etc to the controller. 

Now, in regard to the 'duck & cover' I could still do that up front!


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## m38mike (Dec 27, 2008)

I talked with Jim at Logisystems and it looks like I messed up big time. The controller heatsink is tapped for fans to be mounted on top to control the heat. I saw that in their online instructions, but chose to simply put one fan off to one side, not directly mounted on the controller. Well my change contributed to the controller failure. If I had done what the instructions said to do, I'd be driving it today. 

To Logisystem's great credit, they are covering my mistake under their warrantee, and they are fixing me up with a pair of fans to help deal with the heat. Try getting that kind of service out of Curtis or Kelly. I don't think they would take care of me like Logisystems is. 

In the mean time, I've got the battery boxes designed and we'll start building them this weekend. I'm also going to pull my system analyzer out and send it back this weekend so they can replace the resistors that are bad. Those things are too dang small for me to mess with.


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## B.C. (Oct 7, 2009)

M38mike my brain hurts now but this might be one of the best threads on the web. I have learned a lot about what I'm getting into at your expense. Thanks I look forward even more to start an EV project.


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## Guest (Oct 8, 2009)

> Try getting that kind of service out of Curtis or Kelly. I don't think they would take care of me like Logisystems is.


Kelly gives service like that. At lest with me they have. Hope to have my beta test controller from Kelly hooked up this weekend. Going to install the motor today. 

Pete


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## m38mike (Dec 27, 2008)

BC,
Thanks. I post them like I see them. I hope your project goes better than mine. But if I didn't make mistakes, or get subject to other's mistakes, it'd be too easy, and I'd be enjoying my EV instead of working on it! Where's the fun in tha...... Wait a minute! That's what I'm supposed to be doing!! 

Pete,
I wish you better luck than what I had with my Kelly controller. I couldn't get much performance out of it, and "Steve" was no help in diagnosing the problem, or supporting me with it. But I think part of that issue was due to the knuckleheads I was originally working with on my EV. They never paid Steve for the controller. And they didn't know what they were doing when they tried to build my EV.


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## dtbaker (Jan 5, 2008)

hhmmm, no problems here with my Curtis 'out of the box' off the shelf controller.


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## electromet (Oct 20, 2009)

Mike,

Not to be pushy, but has there been any progress of late? It's amazing how emotionally involved you can get in someone else's build. I want to see it on the road again!

Mike


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## m38mike (Dec 27, 2008)

Electromet,

Besides having 3 elk hanging in the garage, I'm making progress slowly on E-W. I'm glueing up the boards I need to make the boxes for the batteries. The boxes will be big enough that I need to make each side from 2 boards, and the top from 3. I'll probably use OSB sheet stock for the bottoms. I've only got a few clamps large enough to pull 2-3 boards together to edge-glue and dowel them, so it's a slow process. 

One bit of exciting news is that Jim at Logisystems has asked me to beta test a new controller design he's working with. I don't know all the particulars yet, but I agreed to help with the testing. I sent back the rebuilt controller within a couple days of receiving it. He's sending me a 156v, 1000amp controller with a different design inside. He asked me to test it for him because my jeep is such a power hog, and I've got lots of hills to climb just getting from home to town and back again. I'm waiting to see what the shape/design is for the new controller before I build my new controller mount, down by the motor. 

It'll probably take me another month to finish building the battery boxes, but as soon as I can get the new controller, I plan to put it in the jeep and get driving with it right away. One of the changes I'll make to the jeep is to add another ammeter to the dash. The one I have is on the battery side of the controller. I'll put the second one on the motor side so I can see the difference. 

Other than that, we're just getting ready for winter. Had a good snow earlier this week. I've got 9 or 10 cords of wood cut and split, ready to heat the house. The mountains all around us are blanketed in white, and will now probably stay that way until next June. Nice to look at over coffee at sunrise.


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## blackpanther-st (Apr 4, 2009)

Beta testing a new lodgy design sounds cool! 
I had heard that they were working on an IGBT based controller, I don't know if that was the last version or the one you will be testing.


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## m38mike (Dec 27, 2008)

I asked Jim at Logisystems about the beta test in an email. He didn't reply, but he did send my rebuilt controller back to me, with new fans on the top. I have not heard any more about beta testing, so maybe that's something for next year. In the mean time I put the rebuilt controller back in Electro-Willys and I've been driving it on short drives of under 20 miles, trying to get the battery pack broken in to a short discharge/charge cycle. 

I don't have the battery boxes built yet, so the batteries are still sitting in the steel racks, and exposed to the cold. That's another reason why I'm keeping my trips fairly close. I'm monitoring my %-used gauge pretty close while I'm out and about in an effort not to draw the pack down below 40%. Most trips I'm up at 50-60% remaining when I return home. 

I still need to finish the windshield panel for the winter top for the jeep. Until I do, I've got to bundle up in the sub-freezing temps we have here now. But it's giving me an opportunity to experiment with different gears at different speeds to see what the effect is on my power consumption.


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## TheSGC (Nov 15, 2007)

How's the Electro-Willys coming?


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## m38mike (Dec 27, 2008)

Right now it's not going at all. We've been getting lots of very cold temps here in the mountains, so the wind-chill when I take it for the short drives is sometimes below zero! Because of taking time to go play in the snow, I haven't finished building the wood boxes for the batteries. I also have not finished rebuilding the hard top for the jeep, so it's still convertible. 

I'm happy to report that it does work well in snow! All that extra weight really helps with the traction. I'm having a really hard time doing doughnuts with it unless I'm on ice!  I can sure tell that the batteries don't like working in near zero cold. I have a 15 mile route that I drive with it to help with battery-break-in. I'm noticing that I have significantly less power remaining when I return home in the deep cold days than I did last fall when the temps were milder. It helps when I charge them up just before a drive, but being exposed to the cold really takes the power down.


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## Crawdaddy (Apr 6, 2010)

Wow, this took a few days to read, but what a source of info!
Great job!


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