# gevo part 2



## TomA (Mar 26, 2009)

Just a word of regular car (Metro/Firefly/Swift) advice:

Have a really good careful look (like with an ice pick to probe for rust) at the body around where the lower front suspension arms join the chassis, all around the area where the drive shafts come through the frame to the front wheels. Your best bet is to remove the front wheels so you can thoroughly inspect.

These cars are very prone to rusting there, and since your rocker sills are rusted out, its important to look. If there is ANY surface rust, wire brush it and get some rust converter or POR-15 on there right away. If the metal is soft and yields at all under the pick, the chassis is probably shot, as no repair panels are available, its a structural area, and unless you're in the welding trade its prohibitively costly to repair in most cases.

Do this now before you put any time into the car.

Just a suggestion...


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## emosun (Jul 21, 2012)

TomA said:


> Just a word of regular car (Metro/Firefly/Swift) advice:
> 
> Have a really good careful look (like with an ice pick to probe for rust) at the body around where the lower front suspension arms join the chassis, all around the area where the drive shafts come through the frame to the front wheels. Your best bet is to remove the front wheels so you can thoroughly inspect.
> 
> ...


Let me make my own suggestion.... Actually read the back story on the car before posting? It showed on the very first page the Y frame being welded back together.......


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## onegreenev (May 18, 2012)

I will pipe in here. The car is a pile. After looking at the original build I would have stayed far far away from this one. I learned my lesson. I hope you will too. The motor is tiny but functional. I'm still hung out to dry on 36 volts. Can't help much. The controller is about the best thing on the vehicle. Rockers are dead. That rusted area in the danger zone is BAD BAD news. It was welded and it won't hold. I till crack and rust out as they rust out mostly from the inside out. Not much you can do about that. The original post of the car looks bad and our photos look just as bad. I will not hide the fact that IT IS REAL BAD AND YOU SHOUD JUST GET ANOTHER METRO IN EXCELLENT CONDITION AND PUT IN THE ELECTRONICS FROM THIS ONE AND LET THIS ONE BECOME SOME ONES NEW RAZOR BLADE. IT IS DANGEROUS. I WILL NOT HELP ANY FURTHER. 

IT SADENS ME TO SEE THIS SORT OF THING. 

I know its your baby but REALLY, Have you had a real hard look at what you truly have? Pull the EV shades off for a bit and step back and have a good look. You should have seen my first. I had EV blinders on as well. I think mine were worse than yours. 

This was my second build: http://onegreenev.com/ElectricMG/Welcome.html
This was my first after the blinders came off: http://greenev.zapto.org/electricvw/Electric_VW/The_Albums/Pages/Low_N_Slow.html
This was still at 72 volts before I upgraded to 96 volts and a Synkromotive controller. 

http://greenev.zapto.org/electricvw/Electric_VW/Welcome.html
http://greenev.zapto.org/GreenEV/Gr..._Albums/GreenEV_Productions_Photo_Albums.html
http://onegreenev.blogspot.com

Check out the links. 

I wish I had a photo of the second EV I purchased. My first was an old Datsun. Sold it for what I paid for it and then got another which was worse but learned some lessons. Since then it has been better. 

I am a sucker for old VW's. That is my downfall.


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## emosun (Jul 21, 2012)

onegreenev said:


> I will pipe in here. The car is a pile.


This made me lol.

But really , in wisconsin this is normal. Everyone in other states always freak when they see a very rusty wisconsin car but here it's so comon place.

There's a guy at work that drives a corolla with GIANT rust holes in it , like big enough to put my foot in. This car actually has alot LESS rust then some of the geos at the junkyard , granted some were better , which i why i got the door and hood. The trouble spots have been welded and they'll be fine

Worse comes to worse and it falls apart again , I'll just get it welded up again.


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## onegreenev (May 18, 2012)

Figured it might make you LOL but it does not make it any safer because it is so common. I am very much aware of what Wisconsin weather can do to a car. My Dad and Step Mom lived there for many years. She said her VW looked like the flintstone mobile within 5 years and she purchased it new. It was a wonder it did not fall apart under them. Well actually it did. In an accident these rust bombs are dangerous to their occupants. Just because it is still moving ...................... It's still a rust bomb and sad to see because it really does give a crappy impression to those who might consider an electric car. Seeing something like that would turn many folks off to electric. It is perfect for the oil industry. Scare away all those folks who might have gone electric for good. Bad news. 

Wisconsin or not. It still looks like a pile. 

I see too many coming from out of state and just cringe when I see one. Heck my sister in law had a lawn mower that looked like that. Just all rusted out and falling apart but it still ran. Looked like they pulled it from the dump because it was all they thought they could get. Dang motor outlasted the the body. OUCH.


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## emosun (Jul 21, 2012)

onegreenev said:


> It's still a rust bomb and sad to see because it really does give a crappy impression to those who might consider an electric car. Seeing something like that would turn many folks off to electric. It is perfect for the oil industry. Scare away all those folks who might have gone electric for good.


lol , I almost liked the idea of leaving it bad looking , sorta like "this ugly little car is better then yours cuz it's electric" deal.

But really you'd be surprised how many cars I've transformed with a little body work and paint before. I intend to give this thing a makeover before it hits the road , or at least before anyone knows it's electric.


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## PStechPaul (May 1, 2012)

I'm still interested in seeing how this pans out but I agree that in general it is not really worth it to do major frame welding and other body work on a car that was made to be cheap and not known for its safety anyway. It made me curious about what I might pay for a decent small vehicle that would be suitable for an EV conversion.

So I checked the Baltimore Craig's list and I was surprised what you can get for under $1000. I found a 1999 Saturn SL1, which is the same as I have, for $500. It needs engine work but I figure that I can use lots of the ICE parts as spares for my main vehicle and maybe sell some of them and almost get it free. If it has a 5 speed I might jump on it. I would have to look at the various options for conversion but it would be a perfect candidate if the body is in good shape. I've had several other Saturns and never had problems with rust, and the other mechanical systems have given no trouble.

They seem to have good aerodynamics because I have gotten 46 MPG on a highway trip and I average about 35 just on local roads. So I think I could get 250-300 W-hr/mi, and probably a 25 or 30 HP three phase motor would be sufficient. Let's see - if I drive 40 MPH in one hour I'll go 40 miles which is 10 kW-hr. Which means 10 kW or 13 HP might be enough. The main expense, of course, would be batteries. If I can get them for $0.35/W-hr I'd have to spend $3500, but everything else should be about $1500 so for about $5000 I'd have a pretty cool EV. 

Sorry to hijack your thread, but I'm just mulling over the possibilities, and I think you have made your decisions and you don't want to play around with the electrical stuff, so there's not much more help I can offer. Good luck, and I'll post separately if and when I start a road EV project.


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## emosun (Jul 21, 2012)

Today I put the new rim and tires on the wheels and found some geo hubcaps at the junkyard to put on it. Also brushed off the rust on the rear wheels and did bondo.


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## emosun (Jul 21, 2012)

So today I finished up the bondo work over the rear wheels


















I then Cut off all the rusty metal from the rockers and gave everything else a thick layer of auto body undercoating.


























I' debating on keeping the drivers door. The bottom is rusted out , but the outside parts are not so it doesn't actually look bad from the outside , just underneath.


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## emosun (Jul 21, 2012)

Ok big update , gave the gevo it's new paintjob , something a little more... electrifying.

I've never painted lightning before but with some help from the internet and my mom it came out pretty cool.


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## onegreenev (May 18, 2012)

That works.


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## TomA (Mar 26, 2009)

Looks presentable, good job, but do keep an eye on it underneath. You've lost considerable structural integrity, and much of the (modest) crashworthiness the car had to begin with, so it isn't a trivial matter.

I too have driven rusty cars around long after their unibodies (and steel frames, sometimes,) were compromised by corrosion and cosmetic repairs, but honestly, its a dicey business that you can only really get away with in the good ol' US of A. 

In most industrialized countries, perforations or corrosion weakness of the sheet metal structures fails an inspection, and they can't be reregistered without proper repairs. There's a reason for that...


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## emosun (Jul 21, 2012)

TomA said:


> I too have driven rusty cars around long after their unibodies (and steel frames, sometimes,) were compromised by corrosion and cosmetic repairs, but honestly, its a dicey business that you can only really get away with in the good ol' US of A.


I've drove worse then this , it's not that bad. This is what most cars around here look like. I've seen way worse drive just fine. And considering how slow the car actually moves , it's safer then a bike or golf cart.


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## PStechPaul (May 1, 2012)

It's what you don't see that can cause major problems:
http://www.wcpo.com/dpp/money/consumer/dont_waste_your_money/hidden-frame-rust-lurking-in-used-suvs

Hopefully it's not this bad :


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## emosun (Jul 21, 2012)

Yea it's nowhere near that bad , just the rockers. The gauge steel the car uses is so flimsy I don't think the rockers actually gave it any rigidity in the first place.


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## emosun (Jul 21, 2012)

Update , the car now has all 6 batteries installed and the very important voltage switch that allows it to run on 36v but be charged at 72v.

Going to work on tying in the vehicles 12v accessories and lights into the drive batteries so it no longer needs one under the hood.

Pictures to come soon.


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## dragonsgate (May 19, 2012)

Onegreenev is pretty abrupt in his evaluation but what he is saying about the welding on the frame is right. Didn’t seem to make an impression though. Keep a close eye on those welds on the frame. It looks like you just filled in the holes. It is very likely that metal will fatigue and start cracking around the edges of the welds. I hope you have no problems as you have got the car looking fairly nice.


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## TEV (Nov 25, 2011)

I am very interested to know the voltage and amps ratings of your 36V to 72V switch.

Also tapping the main battery pack for 12V is a bad ideea and can have only 2 outcomes :

1. The best case scenario: A lower range.
2. Destroying the tapped battery.

http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showthread.php?t=63525&highlight=tapping+battery

I understand your desire to be back on the road with your new toy, but taking bad shortcuts will only get you to more repairs, down time, and expenses.

The reason for those advice with no explanation you got is because those topics are old and all ready covered many times in the past, so don't take it personally. When you keep disregarding those basic rules, peoples will stop trying to help you.

Please try to stop your enthusiasm just for a moment and get more informations first.


Good luck.


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## emosun (Jul 21, 2012)

dragonsgate said:


> Onegreenev is pretty abrupt in his evaluation but what he is saying about the welding on the frame is right. Didn’t seem to make an impression though. Keep a close eye on those welds on the frame. It looks like you just filled in the holes. It is very likely that metal will fatigue and start cracking around the edges of the welds. I hope you have no problems as you have got the car looking fairly nice.


I'll keep and eye on them . Worst case senario , it breaks , I just get it welded up again or the front clip changed. Theres this awesome cheapo car repair place nearby that can fix anything.

The only consolation was that I saw yesterday a WAYYYYY more rusted geo parked by the hardware store. Made me feel a lot more confident in mine.



TEV said:


> I am very interested to know the voltage and amps ratings of your 36V to 72V switch.


It's 250 amps continuous , 750 surge. There are two of these. One for negative and one for positive.

They are two big old school knife switches , look like something tesla would use in his mad scientist lab, lol



TEV said:


> Also tapping the main battery pack for 12V is a bad ideea and can have only 2 outcomes :
> 
> 1. The best case scenario: A lower range.
> 2. Destroying the tapped battery.


I suppose I'll skip that.


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## onegreenev (May 18, 2012)

dragonsgate said:


> Onegreenev is pretty abrupt in his evaluation but what he is saying about the welding on the frame is right. Didn’t seem to make an impression though. Keep a close eye on those welds on the frame. It looks like you just filled in the holes. It is very likely that metal will fatigue and start cracking around the edges of the welds. I hope you have no problems as you have got the car looking fairly nice.


Abrupt and to the point. I said that because of personal experience. I purchased a VW Rabbit years ago and the braking was soggy and the sucker pulled to the right every time I braked hard. No matter what I did the I could not get the sogginess from the brakes and could not get the sucker to keep from pulling. I checked and checked and checked again and again. Then one day I had to brake real hard and felt something quite different than before or what I would call more intense of what I was already feeling. I found a CRACK in the main unibody where the suspension bolted to the unibody. I followed the crack and found that it had been an issue before and someone welded the crack and that weld just cracked again. I found that the crack was clearly very dangerous and when I followed the crack I found it actually wrapped around the parts where the suspension connected. What was happening was the crack was opening up when I stopped causing a pull and soggy braking. It was the crack and welding did not hold the crack. There is soooooo much force placed upon the unibody that any crack is a death sentence for a car. Do not attempt to weld a cracked unibody if the cracks are in the area of the suspension. You risk your life and the life of others. Just junk the car like I did and take the good components and put them in your other one. I built a real nice Rabbit with the good parts of the one car. The other one did not have any body damage or cracks and never pulled and brakes were solid. 

I do not say what I do blindly. 

Pete 

Been there done that and don't repeat the mistake.


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## TEV (Nov 25, 2011)

emosun said:


> It's 250 amps continuous , 750 surge. There are two of these. One for negative and one for positive
> They are two big old school knife switches , look like something tesla would use in his mad scientist lab, lol
> 
> 
> ...


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## dragonsgate (May 19, 2012)

I have welded cracks and the laid 16 gage were it laps 4 or 5 inches past each side of the first weld and then welded that in place. That is the simple description. I did it on a Renault Gordini that I raced and had no problem. It was a 63 and they used thicker metal than now. I also repaired the front sway control mounts on a 75 Fiat 128. I cut the original section out and fabricated a new one using the old as a pattern. That car was my daily driver for 33 years and the last eight was with the repair. And I drove that car hard through turns. There was a guy I knew in the 70’s that would get two late model Toyotas that had been wrecked. One with front damage and one with rear end damage cut them in half and weld the two good parts together and sell them. He did four of them I know of and as far as I know he never got sued. These kinds of repairs can be done but sometimes you have to practically build a new car to do it. Tenacity and a little crazy are good assets when under taking such projects.


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## onegreenev (May 18, 2012)

So yours held up but the job done on my Rabbit DID NOT. The danger is there and it is dangerous to do so and drive the POS on the street like that. It's not only dangerous to you but to other drivers and possibly pedestrians or others property. It can be deadly dangerous.


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## PStechPaul (May 1, 2012)

Actually, you can take two front halves of a couple of FWD cars and hold them together with duct tape and baling wire and you'll have a fully articulated 4WD vehicle! 





 
        

And I like his ideas for a maximum efficiency vehicle:


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## emosun (Jul 21, 2012)

I suppose I'm just not really a "throw away" kind of person.

All my life I try to make something from nothing simply due to financial necessity. I don't throw away things when they are worn out , I fix them or keep using them until they physically don't work anymore. If you wanna talk recycling , then fix the cars we have , not throw them away.

Truth be told , I could care less about some little rust. I will drive it till the thing falls apart, and even then I'll just fix it again. I'm not going to throw away a car just because Mr california doesn't like rust. 

News flash , not everyone has a safe car. If you like to devote time and energy into dangerous driving , then go after drunk drivers.


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## emosun (Jul 21, 2012)

dragonsgate said:


> Tenacity and a little crazy are good assets when under taking such projects.


Exactly!



PStechPaul said:


> Actually, you can take two front halves of a couple of FWD cars and hold them together with duct tape and baling wire and you'll have a fully articulated 4WD vehicle!
> 
> And I like his ideas for a maximum efficiency vehicle:


These made me laugh , glad to see some people take this light hearted.


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## Ziggythewiz (May 16, 2010)

emosun said:


> These made me laugh , glad to see some people take this light hearted.


What are you laughing at?? Those are great instructional videos, excellent for when EVTV gets a little dull or you just need some extra inspiration.


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## PStechPaul (May 1, 2012)

It's important to have a sense of humor. I'm also one to save everything and I try to fix the "unfixable" as a challenge and a personal statement against the throw-away mentality and blatant consumerism. I generally drive cars until they are beyond a reasonable level of repairability. I also realize that just about anything can be fixed with enough effort, but for something like an EV project I would look for a "donor" car in the best shape possible but with ICE problems like a blown engine or fuel line issues.

There are lots of nice cars that can be purchased for well under $1000 and even $500 that would make excellent EVs. I've been impressed with my 1997-1999 Saturns and when my 1997 SW1 wagon was totaled I kept it and planned to hybridize it with my idea for rear wheel motors. But the body was pretty rough and even my best efforts (and probably at least $300 in parts) it was still not a good choice for all the effort to add electric motors, batteries, and controllers.

I would not have put all that effort into your car. But it seems you are good at body work and welding and structural repairs. So as long as you realize the danger of a major frame failure and if you have properly added extra reinforcement to your welds, maybe you'll be OK.


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## dragonsgate (May 19, 2012)

I guess it could be argued that a car right off the assembly line is unsafe. There seems to be enough recalls validating that. Rusted strut towers and the like can be a hazard but they can be fixed if done properly. Otherwise there would be a lot of body and frame shops out of business. Sometimes it is more cost effective to junk the car and start fresh but I have seen some tin bent so bad you would think it would never roll again but in a few months of diligent work it was sound and looked like new. I personally do not like rust and dents in my rolling stock. Others do not seem to mind. I respect and admire greenev’s desire for safety but just because his repair job did not work does not mean that such repairs can not done right. The repairs on the Geo are a start but with out getting to elaborate I think there should be some reinforcement over the welds. With out actually touching tasting and smelling the parts in question it is hard to make an evaluation beyond that. The odds of getting hit by someone texting or drunk while driving is more likely than having the front end of a Geo coming loose and flying into you. I have done some structural mods on my car that would make Greenev really have a fit. I drive my car hard in the turns almost every day with out incident. I also check things regularly and all has been well. The most dangerous thing on my car is the nut holding the steering wheel. Speaking of safety and steering wheels has anyone seen the hot rod magazine article on the rat rod and the lambo ? The part that got me was the driver of the rat rod actually pulls the steering wheel off the steering column to get in and out. Once in the car he puts the steering wheel back on the shaft to drive. Now that is scary!


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## Ziggythewiz (May 16, 2010)

dragonsgate said:


> I drive my car hard in the turns almost every day with out incident.
> 
> The part that got me was the driver of the rat rod actually pulls the steering wheel off the steering column to get in and out. Once in the car he puts the steering wheel back on the shaft to drive. Now that is scary!


So you just hit people some days? 

Removeable steering wheels are pretty common. Any race car or small car piloted by a big guy needs 'em. Some people use it as a working alternative to The Club. Take your wheel with you and no one's driving off!


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## emosun (Jul 21, 2012)

So some update pics , I've added some electric car smugness to the outside

















I've also built a battery cover for the rear using some plywood and scavenged geo carpet from the junkyard.


















And here is my mad scientist switch. It reminds me of the flux capacitor sitting between the seats behind the passengers like that. I call it the power squid.


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## emosun (Jul 21, 2012)

Also , I took it for a spin last night, at 2am.... to avoid other drivers.

And it actually works! It's kinda slow but I'm not usually in a hurry. I can't tell if it's because the voltage , or because the brakes are stuck on.

Yea , kind of an unexpected safety measure. Some of the brakes are stuck on. So will have to take it in to get those looked at. Till then gotta work on the radio , the 12v cutoff , and a way to store it's super long charging cord it has.


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## emosun (Jul 21, 2012)

Took the car out for another spin tonight , this time a little longer.

Wanted to make sure nothing got hot. But sure enough , the smaller wires on the battery pack , and the wire to the motor itself from the controller and contactors are getting warm.

They are simply too small and gotta upgrade the gauge. And or double up the smaller gauge wires I got lying around.


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## onegreenev (May 18, 2012)

emosun said:


> Took the car out for another spin tonight , this time a little longer.
> 
> Wanted to make sure nothing got hot. But sure enough , the smaller wires on the battery pack , and the wire to the motor itself from the controller and contactors are getting warm.
> 
> They are simply too small and gotta upgrade the gauge. And or double up the smaller gauge wires I got lying around.


With the currents your dealing with you need 2/0 sized cable. They will get warm but should not get scorching hot. The electrical tape just looks ugly. Mounting your knife switch on the back of the seat where all that cloth is just looks dangerous. If it gets scorching hot it could cause a fire. Be careful. The knife switch will be a point of possible resistance enough to cause severe heating. I used a knife switch for my stationary pack for charging my lithium pack and it got scorching hot. Watch the temps of that knife switch. 

How are you making your cable lug crimps? 

Pete


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## emosun (Jul 21, 2012)

The switch doesn't really get hot at all , just the smaller wires in the system.

I'm, using a fencing tool to make the cable crimps


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## emosun (Jul 21, 2012)

OK I switched out most of the motor cables to larger gauges , or at least doubled them up.

Turns out there isn't anywhere in my town that actually sells very large cable so I had to reuse alot of spare cable the car came with from the initial project. Instead of using bigger wires on some , I simply added more.

Although one wire for the motor goes deep inside the motor and I can't access the terminal it's attached to. So I just made that one shorter , so hopefully the lower amount of travel will help some.


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## onegreenev (May 18, 2012)

emosun said:


> The switch doesn't really get hot at all , just the smaller wires in the system.
> 
> I'm, using a fencing tool to make the cable crimps


That could be part of your problem. You need to have a real good solid crimp for those cables.


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## emosun (Jul 21, 2012)

That seems interesting . If my bigger cables don't help I'll investigate the crimps!


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## emosun (Jul 21, 2012)

Would the wires get less hot if the amperage was lower and the voltage higher? I get the feeling THAT would make the most difference. There are wires in the system I can't change or replace because the terminals are not accessable.


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