# [EVDL] Controller Choice -MADE-



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Thanks to all the feedback I got, all of which was polite, friendly,
constructive and useful, I have made a choice.

Sigh. it will be a zilla. ouch. It will however delay the project while I
wait for the fun-funds to build up a bit more.

Why, or what, made the decision.

Well the final nail in the coffin was when someone sent me a post-mortem of
a 650A Kelly

http://hr-ev.blogspot.com/

This drove home some other issues that were hiding under all the other
noise.

*	Heat Soak. This is when the heat generated by the switching devices
can't get out of the chassis fast enough and the components slowly warm up.
Passive systems just don't work. Large heat sinks or fans just don't work
as air just can't transfers enough heat, assuming the heat can GET TO the
case surface. Fluid cooling is a MUST even for small conversions to keep
controllers running in their 100% power range. yes Yes there are lots of
Passive Curtis systems out there, but I don't drive 'gently' and neither
does my wife. 
*	Trying to sync/balance too many devices. To get their "650A" rating
Kelly used 42 devices. Trying to "match" 42 devices, keep the currents
balanced, keep the inductance low between them (yada yada) takes a LOT of
engineering that is hard and expensive. A couple of 1000A IGBT devices get
it done simpler, more reliably, and easier to cool.
*	Power and Signal don't play nicely together. A blown power
component shouldn't take out the whole system.just the power section. (This
played against the Warp and Synkromotive controllers) I don't want to be
the first to find a way to smoke a Zilla power section, but if I am, I don't
want it to take out everything else.the idea of the Hairball -NOW- makes
sense. 
*	Attention to detail. The idea of 16Khz vs 20Khz switching to get
rid of squeal. the Zilla uses a spread spectrum white noise type signal.
gets rid of the problems completely. (Ok yes it hisses.) The zilla can drive
my existing Tach, the zilla can drive my "check engine" and "Oil Pressure"
lights. The zilla can. the zilla can. Not to mention the Data logging and a
few other useful things.

It hurts to have to spend that much, but if this is going to be driven by my
wife, without me nearby to fix it/reset it/etc it needs to be bulletproof
and wife proof. so I will wait a bit longer and get a Zilla.

I will be ordering the Water cooling kit soon as that I can afford that now
with what is left from fun-funds, it will also commit me mentally to the
Zilla as well.

Yes, this will mean the Conversion cost are going to MUCH more than the Car.
yes. But this is also a PROJECT where the project is almost more important
that the outcome. I get encouragement to work in the garage rather than sit
in front of this screen or the bigger one. I even occasionally get help. So
I will continue to order the other essential small bits until spring when I
can order the Zilla (ouch).


Bob Sisson
1993 Geo Metro Convertible Project
Gaithersburg MD


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Bob Sisson wrote:
> 
> > Thanks to all the feedback I got, all of which was polite, friendly,
> > constructive and useful, I have made a choice.
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Dear Bob,

Glad I could help you out with this decision off list. 

You will be glad you purchased a Zilla. Currently there are none better in
the DC world.

Happy New Year!!!!


Sincerely;

Douglas A. Stansfield
President
www.TransAtlanticElectricConversions.com 
973-875-6276 (office)
973-670-9208 (cell)
973-440-1619 (fax)

WHOLESALE ELECTRICITY PROVIDERS
And ELECTRIC CAR PRODUCERS





-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf
Of Bob Sisson
Sent: Tuesday, December 29, 2009 11:49 AM
To: 'Electric Vehicle Discussion List'
Subject: [EVDL] Controller Choice -MADE-

Thanks to all the feedback I got, all of which was polite, friendly,
constructive and useful, I have made a choice.

Sigh. it will be a zilla. ouch. It will however delay the project while I
wait for the fun-funds to build up a bit more.

Why, or what, made the decision.

Well the final nail in the coffin was when someone sent me a post-mortem of
a 650A Kelly

http://hr-ev.blogspot.com/

This drove home some other issues that were hiding under all the other
noise.

*	Heat Soak. This is when the heat generated by the switching devices
can't get out of the chassis fast enough and the components slowly warm up.
Passive systems just don't work. Large heat sinks or fans just don't work
as air just can't transfers enough heat, assuming the heat can GET TO the
case surface. Fluid cooling is a MUST even for small conversions to keep
controllers running in their 100% power range. yes Yes there are lots of
Passive Curtis systems out there, but I don't drive 'gently' and neither
does my wife. 
*	Trying to sync/balance too many devices. To get their "650A" rating
Kelly used 42 devices. Trying to "match" 42 devices, keep the currents
balanced, keep the inductance low between them (yada yada) takes a LOT of
engineering that is hard and expensive. A couple of 1000A IGBT devices get
it done simpler, more reliably, and easier to cool.
*	Power and Signal don't play nicely together. A blown power
component shouldn't take out the whole system.just the power section. (This
played against the Warp and Synkromotive controllers) I don't want to be
the first to find a way to smoke a Zilla power section, but if I am, I don't
want it to take out everything else.the idea of the Hairball -NOW- makes
sense. 
*	Attention to detail. The idea of 16Khz vs 20Khz switching to get
rid of squeal. the Zilla uses a spread spectrum white noise type signal.
gets rid of the problems completely. (Ok yes it hisses.) The zilla can drive
my existing Tach, the zilla can drive my "check engine" and "Oil Pressure"
lights. The zilla can. the zilla can. Not to mention the Data logging and a
few other useful things.

It hurts to have to spend that much, but if this is going to be driven by my
wife, without me nearby to fix it/reset it/etc it needs to be bulletproof
and wife proof. so I will wait a bit longer and get a Zilla.

I will be ordering the Water cooling kit soon as that I can afford that now
with what is left from fun-funds, it will also commit me mentally to the
Zilla as well.

Yes, this will mean the Conversion cost are going to MUCH more than the Car.
yes. But this is also a PROJECT where the project is almost more important
that the outcome. I get encouragement to work in the garage rather than sit
in front of this screen or the bigger one. I even occasionally get help. So
I will continue to order the other essential small bits until spring when I
can order the Zilla (ouch).


Bob Sisson
1993 Geo Metro Convertible Project
Gaithersburg MD


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

I used two "chill plates" with a pump and liquid cooling, with my 1000 amp
Logisystem, for a lot less money,worked great!!



> Bob Sisson <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> > Thanks to all the feedback I got, all of which was polite, friendly,
> > constructive and useful, I have made a choice.
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Bob Sisson wrote:
> > Well the final nail in the coffin was when someone sent me a post-mortem of
> > a 650A Kelly
> >
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Good decision Bob.

I'm like 40 minutes from you in Laurel, if you'd like to see my Zilla 
installation

I have the Zilla Z1K-HV installed in my Ford Escort.

Just installed it in October.

You should consider the HEPI pedal. It provides smooth operation and 
is easy to wire to the Hairball. No need to worry about the 
accelerator cable and a potbox. The only major thing with the pedal 
is finding a flat unobstructed place to mount it to the floor/ 
firewall. I ended up welding a bracket that fit on the existing 
accelerator pedal bracket to bolt the HEPI pedal too.

As far as conversion cost, don't sweat the fact that the parts are 
worth more then the car. Alot of us who convert cars are all in the 
same boat and have more invested in parts then the car itself. That's 
just the way it is. But it's fun and worth it.

Chip Gribben
NEDRA PR Director/Webmaster
[email protected]










> [email protected] wrote:
> 
> > Message: 16
> > Date: Tue, 29 Dec 2009 11:48:50 -0500
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

I have to agree - once the decision is made to convert a car, the thing 
to do is to get the best you can afford. If it makes you feel better, 
all the stuff I've bought for my 914 is 5x the cost of the car (I went 
LiFeP04). On the other hand, I am really not that worried about the 
stuff letting out the magic black smoke either. 

Happy New Year!
Peter

Chip Gribben wrote:
> Good decision Bob.
>
> I'm like 40 minutes from you in Laurel, if you'd like to see my Zilla 
> installation
>
> I have the Zilla Z1K-HV installed in my Ford Escort.
>
> Just installed it in October.
>
> You should consider the HEPI pedal. It provides smooth operation and 
> is easy to wire to the Hairball. No need to worry about the 
> accelerator cable and a potbox. The only major thing with the pedal 
> is finding a flat unobstructed place to mount it to the floor/ 
> firewall. I ended up welding a bracket that fit on the existing 
> accelerator pedal bracket to bolt the HEPI pedal too.
>
> As far as conversion cost, don't sweat the fact that the parts are 
> worth more then the car. Alot of us who convert cars are all in the 
> same boat and have more invested in parts then the car itself. That's 
> just the way it is. But it's fun and worth it.
>
> Chip Gribben
> NEDRA PR Director/Webmaster
> [email protected]
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>


> [email protected] wrote:
> >
> >
> >> Message: 16
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Yeah! The poor old Crazyhorse Pinto only cost me $400.

Like Chip alluded, many of our tires cost more than the car ;-)

Congrats on the decision. You'll not be dissapointed, and there are 
lots of them out there so you will be abe to get support whenever you 
need it.

Mike






> Chip Gribben wrote:
> 
> > Good decision Bob.
> >
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Bob Sisson wrote:
> > Well the final nail in the coffin was when someone sent me a post-mortem of
> > a 650A Kelly
> > http://hr-ev.blogspot.com/
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

If you have not already made a purchase, I would ask if you considered 
an AC system?

I do not have one, I'm a happy and satisfied Zilla user, but I kind of 
wish I hade given more consideration to the AC systems available.

If I had it to do over again, I may have made the same decision, but I 
can not say I gave AC systems their due consideration

John

On Dec 29, 2009, at 11:48 AM, "Bob Sisson" <[email protected]> 


> wrote:
> 
> > Thanks to all the feedback I got, all of which was polite, friendly,
> > constructive and useful, I have made a choice.
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

But if the Hairball seems a daunting complex task, then wouldn't an AC 
controller be even worse ;-)




> John wrote:
> 
> > If you have not already made a purchase, I would ask if you considered
> > an AC system?
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> [email protected] wrote:
> > But if the Hairball seems a daunting complex task, then wouldn't an AC
> > controller be even worse ;-)
> 
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Nope, one input. However if you use a PB-6 you can use the aux contacts 
to break the main contactor when you let off the pedal, like folks have 
been talking about in another thread, if you are concerned with a Zilla 
(using IGBT's) to fail full on ;-)

Or, if you go with the HEPA input then you really shouldn't have to 
worry about it right ;-)

Mike




> Christopher Zach wrote:
> 
> > [email protected] wrote:
> >> But if the Hairball seems a daunting complex task, then wouldn't an
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

The HEPA has two hall sensors built in, with comparison run in much the same
way as the dolphin.

Matt 

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf
Of [email protected]
Sent: Thursday, 31 December 2009 10:02 AM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Controller Choice -MADE-

Nope, one input. However if you use a PB-6 you can use the aux contacts to
break the main contactor when you let off the pedal, like folks have been
talking about in another thread, if you are concerned with a Zilla (using
IGBT's) to fail full on ;-)

Or, if you go with the HEPA input then you really shouldn't have to worry
about it right ;-)

Mike




> Christopher Zach wrote:
> 
> > [email protected] wrote:
> >> But if the Hairball seems a daunting complex task, then wouldn't an
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Hello Bob,

So now that you decided on a Zilla, here are some installation methods I 
use. See http://go-ev.net/pics/001.html

I mounted the Zilla in a existing enclosure that a 900 amp Cableform 
controller was in. The main contactor to the right is a existing Cableform 
600 amp contactor which is also atomic bomb proof.

The Hair Ball is mounted above the Zilla. This existing enclosure has a 
steel chassis plate that is extended from the firewall about 8 inches and as 
close to the top of the hood. I mount 1/4 inch thick aluminum chassis plate 
to this steel plate with those rubber nut inserts install into the steel 
chassis plate.

The Zilla which has a expose copper heat sink on the back side, so I use 1/2 
inch long nylon spacers between the Zilla and the aluminum chassis. These 
act as standoffs and allow the heat of the heatsink to dissipate better.

I got the rubber nut plates and spacers from Home Depot.

This enclosure all ready had 6 inch Dayton blower fan mounted on it, so I 
utilized the fans which blows filter air over and under the motor controller 
and main contactor, which then exist out the right side.

I use a carburetor air filter on the blower fans, one for the motor 
controller and one for the motor.

The Zilla is also water cool using the Pump and equipment that was listed in 
the manual at the time.

I already had a engine head temperature gage and a engine coolant gage, so I 
use the engine sensor on the heat sink, and the coolant sensor on the 
coolant lines which also goes through a small oil type radiator. The 
maximum heat sink temperature I ever got was 99 degrees F. and the same for 
the coolant.

The existing CableForm main contactor use to open and close every time I 
press the accelerator, but it always close and open at no load. The contacts 
are like the day it was install back in 1975.

The Hairball No.6 pin out is the 12 volt output to drive the coils on these 
types of contactors. On large contactors likes these, the coil ampere are 
higher then normal which is 5 amps or more. So in the Zilla kit there 
should be bi direction zener overvoltage transient suppressor that you 
should put across the coil input lines or across the 12+ and 12-.

I did a further mod on this contactor drive circuit, by having the HairBall 
No. 6 pin out operated a small 12 volt glass enclose 10 amp relay which 
switches the 12 volt ignition power from the ignition switch circuits 
directly to the main contactor coil. Now the Hairball contactor drive 
circuit has less than 0.5 amp on it.

I add several safety-emergency shut down switches in series with this 12 
volt ignition circuit to the main contactor. I normally drive with my right 
hand on a shift level that has another lever that is normally use for 
line-locking up a automatic transmission. I can flick this second lever 
with my finger to kill the battery power to the motor controller.

Now is I have my hand on any of the console switches, there is a roll of 
four switches that will also kill the power. And finally if I have both 
hands on the steering wheel, I can flip a lever switch that is just behind 
the steering wheel, it something like the paddle switches that some new 
cars uses.

I program the Zilla controller in 2002 and never touch it since then. I 
have a comm cable that is always plug into the Zilla which runs to the dash. 
I then plug in the Programming Control unit, to check or change the status 
as needed.

Roland




> "Bob Sisson" wrote:
> 
> Thanks to all the feedback I got, all of which was polite, friendly,
> constructive and useful, I have made a choice.
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> [email protected] wrote:
> > Nope, one input. However if you use a PB-6 you can use the aux contacts
> > to break the main contactor when you let off the pedal, like folks have
> > been talking about in another thread, if you are concerned with a Zilla
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Is it a typical failure mode for IGBT's to fail shorted? Or was it that two wires somewhere shorted together?
Never heard of that in a Zilla, or a failure at all for that matter (except now I just heard about one that allowed water intrusion)
;-)

With the Pot box you could always have the aux contactors open the main whenever the foot pedal is let off. 
I think it would be annoying, but folks do it with controllers with less safeties built in.

Mike

> -----Original Message-----
> From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Christopher Zach
> Sent: Wednesday, December 30, 2009 7:49 PM
> To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Controller Choice -MADE-
> 


> > [email protected] wrote:
> > > Nope, one input. However if you use a PB-6 you can use the aux contacts
> > > to break the main contactor when you let off the pedal, like folks have
> > > been talking about in another thread, if you are concerned with a Zilla
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Mike Willmon wrote:
> >
> > Is it a typical failure mode for IGBT's to fail shorted? ...
> 
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Not necessarily. I think that a lot of people are needlessly intimidated 
by AC systems. They are not that hard to hook up. The motor only has 
three wires. If you hook them up backwards it's easy to change (or just 
tweak the direction parameter on the controller). The encoder tends to 
have a nice plug that you just plug right into the controller. Simple. 
There are a number of external relays and things that need to be hooked 
up but it's not that bad. There tends to be internal precharge on most 
AC controllers so you don't even need to worry about that.

The expense is something to consider though. It can easily be about 
$6000 for motor and controller for a 47kW system. Then add batteries, 
relays, wiring, your time, etc, etc.

And, one could look at it this way: Car companies are known cheapskates. 
If a DC setup were both cheaper and better don't you think that they 
would go that route? But they don't. Not a single EV or hybrid (from a 
big car company) out there right now uses DC (someone correct me if I'm 
wrong).

On 12/30/2009 7:33 PM, [email protected] wrote:
> But if the Hairball seems a daunting complex task, then wouldn't an AC
> controller be even worse ;-)
>
>
>


> John wrote:
> >
> >
> >> If you have not already made a purchase, I would ask if you considered
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

You make it sound a little too simple! I know, I'm still working on the 
Mustang  for Mark Juliar.

A lot of time is spent just figuring things out, as opposed to a DC system. 
And there are significant differences, if you're used to a DC system, also.

Of course, the Mustang is using an Azure Dynamics system - I don't know 
anything about the other AC systems that are available.

Joseph H. Strubhar

Web: www.gremcoinc.com

E-mail: [email protected]


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Collin Kidder" <[email protected]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, December 31, 2009 5:17 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Controller Choice -MADE-


> Not necessarily. I think that a lot of people are needlessly intimidated
> by AC systems. They are not that hard to hook up. The motor only has
> three wires. If you hook them up backwards it's easy to change (or just
> tweak the direction parameter on the controller). The encoder tends to
> have a nice plug that you just plug right into the controller. Simple.
> There are a number of external relays and things that need to be hooked
> up but it's not that bad. There tends to be internal precharge on most
> AC controllers so you don't even need to worry about that.
>
> The expense is something to consider though. It can easily be about
> $6000 for motor and controller for a 47kW system. Then add batteries,
> relays, wiring, your time, etc, etc.
>
> And, one could look at it this way: Car companies are known cheapskates.
> If a DC setup were both cheaper and better don't you think that they
> would go that route? But they don't. Not a single EV or hybrid (from a
> big car company) out there right now uses DC (someone correct me if I'm
> wrong).
>
> On 12/30/2009 7:33 PM, [email protected] wrote:
>> But if the Hairball seems a daunting complex task, then wouldn't an AC
>> controller be even worse ;-)
>>
>>
>>


> John wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >>> If you have not already made a purchase, I would ask if you considered
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

My project was with an Azure Dynamics controller too.

I have never done a DC system so my pro-AC bias could be just because 
that's where my experience lies. I can't say how easy a DC controller is 
to wire but I didn't think that the DMOC was too terrible to wire. It's 
not completely straight forward with the 4-5 external relays that all 
have to be hooked up but it's doable. There were quite a few snags to 
work out at first but Azure is a very helpful company. And now I pretty 
much know how to wire up a DMOC without asking them 700 questions. 


On 12/31/2009 9:46 AM, joe wrote:
> You make it sound a little too simple! I know, I'm still working on the
> Mustang  for Mark Juliar.
>
> A lot of time is spent just figuring things out, as opposed to a DC system.
> And there are significant differences, if you're used to a DC system, also.
>
> Of course, the Mustang is using an Azure Dynamics system - I don't know
> anything about the other AC systems that are available.
>
> Joseph H. Strubhar
>
> Web: www.gremcoinc.com
>
> E-mail: [email protected]
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Collin Kidder"<[email protected]>
> To:<[email protected]>
> Sent: Thursday, December 31, 2009 5:17 AM
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Controller Choice -MADE-
>
>
> 
>> Not necessarily. I think that a lot of people are needlessly intimidated
>> by AC systems. They are not that hard to hook up. The motor only has
>> three wires. If you hook them up backwards it's easy to change (or just
>> tweak the direction parameter on the controller). The encoder tends to
>> have a nice plug that you just plug right into the controller. Simple.
>> There are a number of external relays and things that need to be hooked
>> up but it's not that bad. There tends to be internal precharge on most
>> AC controllers so you don't even need to worry about that.
>>
>> The expense is something to consider though. It can easily be about
>> $6000 for motor and controller for a 47kW system. Then add batteries,
>> relays, wiring, your time, etc, etc.
>>
>> And, one could look at it this way: Car companies are known cheapskates.
>> If a DC setup were both cheaper and better don't you think that they
>> would go that route? But they don't. Not a single EV or hybrid (from a
>> big car company) out there right now uses DC (someone correct me if I'm
>> wrong).
>>
>> On 12/30/2009 7:33 PM, [email protected] wrote:
>> 
>>> But if the Hairball seems a daunting complex task, then wouldn't an AC
>>> controller be even worse ;-)
>>>
>>>
>>>


> John wrote:
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Mike Willmon wrote:
> >> Is it a typical failure mode for IGBT's to fail shorted?
> 
> Jeffrey Jenkins wrote:
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Collin Kidder wrote:
> > And, one could look at it this way: Car companies are known cheapskates.
> > If a DC setup were both cheaper and better don't you think that they
> > would go that route? But they don't. Not a single EV or hybrid (from a
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

I already had the Motor...

I looked at AC systems, but they were WAY over my budget...

They are coming down, and the REGEN would have been nice, but too pricy when
I got the motor...

Bob Sisson
1993 Geo Metro Convertible Project
Gaithersburg MD

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf
Of John
Sent: Wednesday, December 30, 2009 6:17 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Controller Choice -MADE-

If you have not already made a purchase, I would ask if you considered 
an AC system?

I do not have one, I'm a happy and satisfied Zilla user, but I kind of 
wish I hade given more consideration to the AC systems available.

If I had it to do over again, I may have made the same decision, but I 
can not say I gave AC systems their due consideration

John

On Dec 29, 2009, at 11:48 AM, "Bob Sisson" <[email protected]> 


> wrote:
> 
> > Thanks to all the feedback I got, all of which was polite, friendly,
> > constructive and useful, I have made a choice.
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Bob Sisson wrote:
> > I already had the Motor...
> >
> > I looked at AC systems, but they were WAY over my budget...
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

what motor/controller do you use?

I was looking into ac drive and thought UQM was the best out there for a
heavy car.





> Christopher Zach wrote:
> > Bob Sisson wrote:
> > > I already had the Motor...
> > >
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Lee Hart wrote:
> 
> > Collin Kidder wrote:
> >> And, one could look at it this way: Car companies are known
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> pratt2 wrote:
> > what motor/controller do you use?
> 
> I use a GM/Hughes 50kw Dolphin Vector controller and motor in my Prizm
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "James Massey" <[email protected]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, December 31, 2009 4:53 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Controller Choice -MADE-

Driving the EV with a Zilla for eight years, I only had two events.

The Problem: I was driving a constant speed and when I let up on the 
accelerator, the EV did not reduce in speed.

The FIX: Just turn off the ignition circuit and install the accelerator 
spring back on the linkage.

The MOD: Rotated the spring one notch tighter on the Curtis Pot and install 
a double type of carburetor spring on the linkage.

The next Problem: The EV would not start up.
The Indications: The 12 volts control voltage was at 13.5 V+ - OK
The battery pack voltage was at 192 V+ - OK
The 192 V+ was at the main contactor - OK
The main contactor was not turning on.
No 12 V+ at the contactor coil.

The FIX: Move the floor mat off the accelerator pedal, which
prevented the POT to drop to a starting or 0 ohm position.

Other DATA: Cutting, disconnected, or open accelerator control wires
will cause the motor to stop operating.

Shorting the accelerator pot wires will also cause
the motor to stop operating (ohms is less than the
operating resistance)

Running the motor up to any rpm while it is
disconnected from the drive line, will hold a constant
rpm.

If you want to idle the motor, make sure your controller
is design to hold any set rpm at no load.

Roland












> G'day Chris, All
>
> I hope I'm not giving secrets away here, but many moons ago I started
> to design a controller, and on the EVDL there was much discussion on
> controller design, safeties, etc. I got fairly well into the design,
> then reality set in and I bought a Zilla, since that has pretty much
> all that a DC motor control system should have, right there in the
> controller. Unlike certain others on this list, I have gone to the
> effort of designing a controller that could be built (most of the
> design, anyway), and at present pricing a Zilla represent good value
> for money, considering what you get. If you want to be safe, you may
> need to add a lot to another type of controller to make it safe. A
> Curtis plus all the external modules to make it as safe as a Zilla,
> costs as much as a Zilla.
>
> Otmar was well aware of the consequences of a short when he designed
> the Zilla, and unless they've been changed, Zilla's implements the
> following safeties:
>
> Integral control of the precharger and B+ contactor
> Safety voltage monitoring around the power stage, turn off the B+
> contactor if the monitoring gets 'unhappy'
> When controller is 100% on, turn off for a few hundred uSec every so
> often (IIRC about every half a second) to make sure that if the
> transistors fail during 100% on-time, this is detected before lifting
> the pedal (and drops the B+ contactor as soon as this is detected).
>
> So in a good design DC system, a shorted power stage is a non-event,
> no 'full blast' (other than for a very short time, long enough for
> the contactor to go out), just a dead vehicle.
>
> On an AC system a pair of shorted IGBT legs (or stopped drive
> sequencing that locks the pair on) will put the motor into maximum DC
> braking, so if that isn't allowed for in the design you'll get
> maximum braking without warning, so an AC system >on its' own< is no
> cure against unexpected "events", it is all in the design.
>
> Ford cars recently were in the news here, a certain model has been
> locking the cruise control on, and a driver was stuck at 100km/h
> unable to pull it out of gear, turn off the cruise control or turn
> the key off (aparently). Solid stomp on the brakes, plus handbrake
> and uphill is what it took (if you can believe the news) to stop. Bad
> design has consequences, regardless of the system topology.
>
> Regards
>
> [Technik] James
>
> (Disclaimer : not affiliated with Zilla controllers, the manufacture,
> distribution, etc, just a technically aware customer).
>
> _______________________________________________
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>
> 

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> James Massey wrote:
> > Integral control of the precharger and B+ contactor
> > Safety voltage monitoring around the power stage, turn off the B+
> > contactor if the monitoring gets 'unhappy'
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> James Massey wrote:
> >
> > Otmar was well aware of the consequences of a short when he designed
> > the Zilla, and unless they've been changed, Zilla's implements the
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

If they "wanted" their product to be successful they probably would. But when have you known a major car company to think that EV's
are even marketable?

;-)

> -----Original Message-----
> Collin Kidder wrote
> 
> And, one could look at it this way: Car companies are known cheapskates.
> If a DC setup were both cheaper and better don't you think that they
> would go that route? But they don't. Not a single EV or hybrid (from a
> big car company) out there right now uses DC (someone correct me if I'm
> wrong).


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Maybe we should transition this to Re: [EVDL] Controller Installation tips


Roland mentioned this and it brings up a good point.

> The Problem: I was driving a constant speed and when I let up on the 
> accelerator, the EV did not reduce in speed.
>
> The FIX: Just turn off the ignition circuit and install the accelerator 
> spring back on the linkage.
>
> The MOD: Rotated the spring one notch tighter on the Curtis Pot and install 
> a double type of carburetor spring on the linkage.
I wonder if it is a common mistake to think the spring on the PB6 is the
car's throttle release spring. It really is just for the put if the
cable becomes disconnected, the Linkage is SUPPOSE to have it's own
return spring. 

Maybe we should have a FMM Frequently Made Mistakes page?


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

I think you forgot one of the laws


1) Law of obfuscation : If the customer can understand it enough to fix
it, send it back to engineering
2) Law of risidual income : Make it as cheap as possible to build and as
expensive as possible to fix. As long as this does not voilate Law 1
3) Law of self : If a standard exists, change it enough and use lawyers
to get it accepted as a new standard. (learned from microsoft)

Corollary
If another car manufacturer makes a similar part or buys the same
subcomponent, Make sure it is altered to be "ours"
Follows from correct application of the first 3 laws.
Make sure they buy their diagnostic tools from us. application of Law 1
and 3




> If they "wanted" their product to be successful they probably would. But when have you known a major car company to think that EV's
> are even marketable?
>
> ;-) 
>
> 
>> > -----Original Message-----
>> > Collin Kidder wrote
>> > 
>> > And, one could look at it this way: Car companies are known cheapskates.
>> > If a DC setup were both cheaper and better don't you think that they
>> > would go that route? But they don't. Not a single EV or hybrid (from a
>> > big car company) out there right now uses DC (someone correct me if I'm
>> > wrong).
>> 

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Inherently, an AC setup should have all the advantages, motor cheaper,
(though offset by extra electronics), regen, reliability, etc, and when big
manufacturers make the choice they care get prices for huge quantities where
ultimately the AC setup win. We look at controller costs for 1 off, and
choose the DC series setup.
Manufacturer's are in it for the money only, and they need to make
good products only because that is necessary for they to make money. With
hobbyists etc our driving motives are not money, though money may be a
limitation.

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf
Of Mike Willmon
Sent: Friday, 1 January 2010 10:59 p.m.
To: 'Electric Vehicle Discussion List'
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Controller Choice -MADE-

If they "wanted" their product to be successful they probably would. But
when have you known a major car company to think that EV's
are even marketable?

;-)

> -----Original Message-----
> Collin Kidder wrote
> 
> And, one could look at it this way: Car companies are known cheapskates.
> If a DC setup were both cheaper and better don't you think that they
> would go that route? But they don't. Not a single EV or hybrid (from a
> big car company) out there right now uses DC (someone correct me if I'm
> wrong).


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Hey but do you know what the best thing about "standards" is ?

There's so many to chose from ;-)

> -----Original Message-----
> From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Jeff Shanab
> Sent: Friday, January 01, 2010 9:09 AM
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Controller Choice -MADE-
> 
> I think you forgot one of the laws
> 
> 
> 1) Law of obfuscation : If the customer can understand it enough to fix
> it, send it back to engineering
> 2) Law of risidual income : Make it as cheap as possible to build and as
> expensive as possible to fix. As long as this does not voilate Law 1
> 3) Law of self : If a standard exists, change it enough and use lawyers
> to get it accepted as a new standard. (learned from microsoft)
> 
> Corollary
> If another car manufacturer makes a similar part or buys the same
> subcomponent, Make sure it is altered to be "ours"
> Follows from correct application of the first 3 laws.
> Make sure they buy their diagnostic tools from us. application of Law 1
> and 3
> 
> 
> 
> 
> > If they "wanted" their product to be successful they probably would. But when have you known a major car
> company to think that EV's
> > are even marketable?
> >
> > ;-)
> >
> >
> >> > -----Original Message-----
> >> > Collin Kidder wrote
> >> >
> >> > And, one could look at it this way: Car companies are known cheapskates.
> >> > If a DC setup were both cheaper and better don't you think that they
> >> > would go that route? But they don't. Not a single EV or hybrid (from a
> >> > big car company) out there right now uses DC (someone correct me if I'm
> >> > wrong).
> >>
> 
> _______________________________________________
> General support: http://evdl.org/help/
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> Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> On 31 Dec 2009 at 13:13, Christopher Zach wrote:
> 
> > 4) The cars and trucks are so nice (AC, Heat, Power steering, Brakes,
> > batteries under the car, etc) that people don't seem to part them out
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Roger Heuckeroth wrote:
> > Other reasons for [the big auto companies] going towards AC may be:
> > 1. It's easier to do regenerative braking with AC motor.
> 
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> On 5 Jan 2010 at 16:52, Evan Tuer wrote:
> 
> > I think a "maintenance free" EV is the only way they will succeed now.
> 
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

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----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

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Cg==


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

On Jan 5, 2010, at 12:14 PM, "EVDL Administrator" <[email protected]> 


> wrote:
> 
> > On 5 Jan 2010 at 16:52, Evan Tuer
> 
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Lee Hart wrote:
> >
> > People are used to taking their car in for maintenance every 3000 miles.
> > The dealers like it that way. It's easier to build the cars to work that
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Willie McKemie wrote:
> > Lee, you may not have a "modern" car. My wife's 10 year old Golf TDI
> > has an oil change interval of 10K miles. My Sprinter tells me when it
> > is time to change oil; it's typically about 15K miles.
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Lee Hart <[email protected]> wrote:
> > Willie McKemie wrote:
> >> Lee, you may not have a "modern" car. My wife's 10 year old Golf TDI
> >> has an oil change interval of 10K miles. My Sprinter tells me when it
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

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----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> On 5 Jan 2010 at 18:13, Evan Tuer wrote:
> 
> > There's virtually nothing to be serviced on a modern EV though,
> > what excuse can they use?
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> EVDL Administrator <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> > On 5 Jan 2010 at 16:52, Evan Tuer wrote:
> >
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Oh no! We have had all sorts of stuff happen. Even a busted windshield 
and they tried to say they did not do it. A few times that the oil was 
over filled and even under filled. We are also sure that when the 
timing belt was changed they did not take the proper steps and now the 
vehicle runs like crap. We are taking to somewhere else to be fixed. 
No more friggin dealers for us. I don't take my New Kia to the dealer 
and because of that I have never had a problem of any kind. I do my 
own work. Damn the dealers.


Pete 




> Roger Heuckeroth wrote:
> 
> > Am I the only one that has come out of a dealer service with
> > overfilled oil. For every good mechanic out there I believe there are
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Hi EVerybody;

A few years ago, Tony Ascrizzi and I went to a surplus auction by the 
White Plaines NY , Muni Garage blowout. THOUGH we could get a few cherry 
Forces a EV of America S-10 and a Dodge, I THINK, orphen, passenger van. 
There was NOTHING wrong with these vehicles other than DEAD, I mean TERMINAL 
dead batteries. Why? Neglect, a definate"Don't give a shit" mentality of 
their garage! I mean a like NEW S-10 with a dead charger, a NEW charger 
sitting in the pass. seat. Just needed a guy to swap them out, before the 
batteries died, for EVER due to neglect. Like yur SUPPOSED to plug-er-in 
EVery nite? Too hard for there jackasses! Watering the baddp-eries with a 
garden hose. Distilled water? Yur dreaming! ALL the vehicles died of 
neglect, and were scattered about their "Outsville" yard! Like seeing the 
crushed EV-1's in the movie!When the last one wouldn't turn a wheel anymore 
they went up for bid! All done, no good, get 'em OUT of here!

We felt SURE they would go cheap? Nope. they got high offers. I don't 
know WHERE they went. I asked on here and Nothin'!Nobody would 'fess up that 
they won any EV's from WP? But they went to unlisted, loving homes I guess? 
Same issue with the Postal jeeps of a few decades ago. the New Haven P.O. 
had a fleet. they, too, died of abuse. Shows to go ya, vehicles, an' 
sheeple, will DIE without love!

YMMV?

Bob
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Dennis Miles" <[email protected]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, January 05, 2010 7:18 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Controller Choice -MADE-


> On Tue, Jan 5, 2010 at 12:14 PM, EVDL Administrator <[email protected]> 


> > wrote:
> >
> >> On 5 Jan 2010 at 16:52, Evan Tuer wrote:
> >>
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

No,
Scan the Prius mailing lists such as Prius Technical Stuff Yahoo group
and you will see dozens of complaints.
The *only* time that I had my Prius in the garage for a change,
they prompty over-filled it.
I suggested (and it was confirmed by others) that not only
doing it self but also using less than factory prescribed
(3 quarts iso 3.5) leads to an exactly good level - halfway
the dipstick as it is not using any oil anyway.

I have heard of many mishaps during service and there has
been a scandal with I think quick-lube where only half the
requested maintenance was actually done (caught on hidden cam)

Let's go back to EVs.

Cor van de Water
Director HW & Systems Architecture Group
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
Email: [email protected] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [email protected]
Tel: +1 408 383 7626 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Tel: +91 (040)23117400 x203 XoIP: +31877841130

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On
Behalf Of Roger Heuckeroth
Sent: Tuesday, January 05, 2010 11:07 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Controller Choice -MADE-


On Jan 5, 2010, at 12:14 PM, "EVDL Administrator" <[email protected]>


> wrote:
> 
> > On 5 Jan 2010 at 16:52, Evan Tuer
> 
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> On 6 Jan 2010 at 1:41, Bob Rice wrote:
> 
> > ALL the vehicles died of neglect ...
> 
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Most mechanics I have ever met were very weak in their understanding of 
electricity or how it worked. Could not troubleshoot a short or open 
without much head scratching and fear in the eyes. They have barely 
understood the water model of electrical (electron) flow and they only 
spent a few days in shop class talking about it as opposed to the 95% of 
the time talking about pistons, cams, gears etc... 

Could not tell you a volt from an amp or a watt or what the difference 
between them was. Present them with a full electric car with almost no 
moving parts and they are dumbfounded. Without their buy in they will 
turn from what they don't understand or fear and let it just hang loose 
in the wind while they do something more "mechanical" and greasy. It's 
not that they are incapable of learning or understanding but you have to 
remember that most of them were taught by people who did not have much 
knowledge themselves and it's hard to break that cycle. 

Lloyd Wayne Reece
1981 Lectra Centauri
Las Vegas, NV



> EVDL Administrator wrote:
> > On 6 Jan 2010 at 1:41, Bob Rice wrote:
> >
> >
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Lloyd Wayne Reece" <[email protected]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, January 06, 2010 3:58 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Controller Choice -MADE-


> Most mechanics I have ever met were very weak in their understanding of
> electricity or how it worked. Could not troubleshoot a short or open
> without much head scratching and fear in the eyes. They have barely
> understood the water model of electrical (electron) flow and they only
> spent a few days in shop class talking about it as opposed to the 95% of
> the time talking about pistons, cams, gears etc...


Mourning EVerybody;

If yur into the history of RR's , early trains? Who ME<g>?Early steam 
locomotives were busted up by Teamsters, or guyz that ran and maintained 
real horsepower, for about the same reasons; Loss of jobs! Rather than learn 
how to care and feed a steamer, they felt secure by discouraging their use. 
After all WHO would want to risk having to deal with exploading 
boilers,injecter pumps and other Hi Teck stuff? Seeing a steamer chuffing 
along, pulling SEVERAL coaches, wafting along at an physics defying 20-30 
mph was more than they could stand! Of course the brighter ones got jobs 
maintaining and driving them thar Iron Horses!Wow! What a concept a Horse 
that didn't eat and shit when it wasn't working? NEVER got tired, IF driven 
right? Scary?I woulda loved it!Fast forward about 150 years the fascination 
was still there, Iron Horses that ran by lightning? They were FUN!

A loose anology, but along the same lines, there aren't many buggy 
builders, and Livery Stables, anymore?Or electric streetcars, but, THEY are 
coming back, slowly, but shurely. Take a ride on the MAX, in Portland, to 
renew yur faith! I'll bet sheeple today have never heard of the J.G. Brill 
Co. of Philly, PA, they , unfortunately couldn't , wouldn't adapt to a bus 
building, but DID drive a Brill bus, in the Army,last of a breed, thousands 
of years ago!But no Greyhound Brills out there, now.

> Could not tell you a volt from an amp or a watt or what the difference
> between them was. Present them with a full electric car with almost no
> moving parts and they are dumbfounded. Without their buy in they will
> turn from what they don't understand or fear and let it just hang loose
> in the wind while they do something more "mechanical" and greasy. It's
> not that they are incapable of learning or understanding but you have to
> remember that most of them were taught by people who did not have much
> knowledge themselves and it's hard to break that cycle.

Lloyd, ya got THAT right! I've gone to Cruise nights with my E- Jetta 
with my "Just say NO to Pistons!" bumper sticker. I know some of them 
cringe, and look at the car, like it was a space shuttle?! Totally CLUELESS! 
I have to calm then and say; " Think Golf Cart on steer-oids!"" See that 
pretty purple box? Think GIANT light dimmer, or Gasp! Carberater?Feeds 
regulated power to the motor "EVer have a starter apart? yeah?" OK SAME 
thing, just TWICE as big!Guy will say" Yeah, I can crank my big F-200-600 
Ford beast around on a little itty bitty starter!" So double yur "Starter, 
hook it up to a tranny, run 120 volts to it and run it down the road!"You 
have to go back to pretty perimitive terminology? Not ALL motor, or , what? 
, gear heads are clueless, though. You can get some that it all seems 
natural, even fururistic? How the hell do ya think I can get more EAA Club 
members?' Hey!" WE meet up at my place in Killingworth second Sat EVery 
month, at about 2pm, come on up!" Meet 20-30 OTHER EV Geeks, if ya dare?! 
And they DO! And these guys are shadetree GOOD at the EV concept, and 
prepping a vehicle for it's new life. Guy in Oregon, John Wayland, comes to 
mind. HE used to play with gassers BEFORE he saw the LIGHT! So get yur EV 
OUT there to shows, cruise nights, etc My Sentra was GREAT for that, with 
the Open Bay style, controller and charger mounted on the firewall. See, 
THAT'S the Motor, nakid, right in the open, that little round thing hooked 
onto the tranny, yes it drives through the clutch and tranny, THAT'S how I 
can back up, as it CAME with 5 ahead, and one astern!" THAT itty bitty 
little motor runs it? How fast, oh, 60, or MORE downhill!" Show and tell is 
fun, and seeing guyz "Grok" it is the fun part?

Seeya Sat?

Bob

'89 Jokes wagen Jetta, '97 Nissan Sentra, abuilding. My "New" car<g>?
>
> Lloyd Wayne Reece
> 1981 Lectra Centauri
> Las Vegas, NV
>


> > EVDL Administrator wrote:
> >> On 6 Jan 2010 at 1:41, Bob Rice wrote:
> >>
> >>
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> EVDL Administrator wrote:
> 
> >>
> >> ALL the vehicles died of neglect ...
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Roger Heuckeroth" <[email protected]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, January 06, 2010 10:17 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Controller Choice -MADE-


>
>


> EVDL Administrator wrote:
> >
> >>>
> >>> ALL the vehicles died of neglect ...
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

>


> > Willie McKemie wrote:
> >> Lee, you may not have a "modern" car. My wife's 10 year old Golf TDI
> >> has an oil change interval of 10K miles. My Sprinter tells me when it
> >> is time to change oil; it's typically about 15K miles.
> ...


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